# Never mind



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Okay, you know what?

I have had a LOT of good ideas here, especially playful parenting strategies. I'm super grateful for that. I guess it was not obvious to some people because their own ideas got shot down, and all I can say is, if it sounds like nothing works for us after all these suggestions, you are missing a lot.

I also vented a lot because this is the ONLY place I was speaking to adults at night and decompressing here. So the hyperbole and frustration is not representative of my entire outlook on life. It is certainly not evidence of how I'm speaking to my child. I also posted that I had a very early miscarriage (so early I never would have known if not for the fact that I'm taking p. tests monthly) and there was a lot of moodiness. Those two together, along with the fact that I don't mince words, appears to have convinced some that I need therapy. To which I can say... I see a number of people who work with our community daily, including a counselor, and if they suggest something, I will go.

I am amazed that people think that asking for specific help means asking for people to tell you you're mentally ill or that your child has a developmental disorder. I think the fallacy is, "My child didn't do that, so you must be doing something majorly wrong." Which is not true. My child can't run the track five times, but that doesn't mean that the parents of the child who can are keeping theirs locked up the rest of the day.

Certainly, we do not have a perfect life which is why I posted. Yes, we have problems--sleep without rewards, a hitting phase (hitting is physical violence, and must not be encouraged, regardless of whether you address the root cause), and she is three. And no, those problems will not go away overnight.

BUT! I am going to stop coming here because the daily insinuations that because what worked for you is not working for us means we are mentally ill is really hard for me to take. It makes me less confident as a parent ("What if I really am that screwed up?"), it makes me more irritated ("They don't even know me and they're suggesting I have a mental illness? WTF!"), and it makes me lonely ("People do not understand what I am talking about.").

So, again, thanks to those of you who get it. Who get that life is not perfect, that sometimes we need help but we don't need suggestions that we're beyond screwed up and that drugs are the answer. Who can accept that I was trying GD as in no consequences, but that it was really hard for us given our life, and who let it go. Who have stated that it's okay not to do the hard-core GD but that's still gentle. Who have empathized instead of judged.

I really, really needed it and I will update... in another thread. Things are going massively better thanks to the playful suggestions and I'm going to try more planned rewards for sleep, rewards I can live with, and we'll see how that goes, combined with ignoring hitting and then other playful stuff, and we'll see.

(Incidentally... I read the spirited kids thread... that's not my kid. So... not sure I'm going to get RYSC from the library, though it sounds like playful parenting is a must.)


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## sweetkid (Feb 5, 2008)

Read Playful Parenting.Lawerence Cohen. My 3 year old was very much the same way, for a time, but its my reactions to her and my moods and tones that spur it all on. This book and taking time to enjoy her really made a huge difference in our dynamic.
Its hard having a really smart, really tenacious and articulate kid,people think you can't complain when you've got a 3 year old that understands EVERYTHING.but its hard really I've been where you are AND my baby is exactly 3 years younger than my 3 year old.
My best advice is that book, smile have fun with your kid, even pretending will turn real, and a nice ice cold beer right around dinner time.

The best way to win an argument with a child IS not to argue with the child, esaier said than done, but its a habit that really grows. There are some great articles on the natural child project site too.


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## kayabrink (Apr 19, 2005)

My ds was like this until age five (older five, not five-and-one-day). I have no words of wisdom, and can only offer my deepest sympathy. It is so hard to deal with when things arise that MUST be done (getting out of the house with a time limit for ex.). He is very, very much better now, but I don't feel that good about it because he only complies because he "wants to make (me) happy" (his words!). How bout making yourself happy, kiddo, and not starting a war at every minor decision making moment?
I don't know how things are for you, but around age four my ds started being a lot less oppositional IF we were alone. He is still, much more difficult if there is an "audience" as I call it- grand ma, papa, anyone other than just the two of us. Luckily, the baby seems too young to count as an audience, plus he actually became super helpful and agreeable when she was born.
Just not bothering didn't work for us, because he would go out of his way to create new and innovative ways of beginning new battles. Never major ones, either, always about minor things but just one thing after the other continuously.


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## enigo (Mar 11, 2009)

I found this works with DS. Every night is a nightmare about brushing his teeth. Last night I told him that he didn't need to brush his teeth. He got in bed quietly and then started screaming "I wanna brush my teeth!!!!!"

It turns out all that "You need to brush your teeth so they don't rot" finally got to him. It worked again tonight. I told him he didn't need to brush his teeth, that _maybe_ some new ones would grow in. This time, much calmer, he said "No! I want you to brush them."


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

If you read my latest post in the thread I started in this forum, "My 5YO is driving me crazy," you'll see I *kind of* tried this w/ bedtime last night. I don't think it really worked, but I guess he *is* in bed earlier tonight (9:00) than last night (after 10:30).







I feel for you, mama! My DS is older than yours, of course, but I'm dealing w/ a similar behavior from him recently. UGH! I'm sure the other moms here will have some good advice for you. I'll be watching this thread, hoping to gather up some more tools for my GD arsenal! Good luck to you! I am tired of arguing too. It's exhausting!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Weird that there are moms of 5yos here. My child tends to exhibit "shadow" milestones a year or two before she actually reaches them. Perhaps this is that? (E.g. exhibited early letter / sound recognition then dropped it for a year and is now learning them more at a normal time, used perfect grammar early then stopped with proper tenses, did the whole "why" thing, dropped it for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and then started full-force right on target.) Though I don't find that encouraging, because that means I'm in for it even worse later. Ugh.

I should be more playful but the problem is I am not naturally playful at all. Like at. all. People would describe me as "intense" or "strong" or "serious". I get "serious" a lot. I'm sad to be the wrong mom for my child but I will try to be more playful. Being playful takes 1000% of my energy, though, so though I will check it out, I don't foresee it being an answer to my problems. Sorry. I envy playful people. Maybe therapy could change me? However two counselors I have seen both told me my goal to be less serious, more playful and to have more of a sense of humor told me they'd never changed anyone's temperament before.









Last night she went to bed at midnight. No brushed teeth, nothing. This morning, didn't eat breakfast. The only thing I require is that I'm not giving into demands. She MUST treat me like a human.

Of course, she can always go hungry.

Sigh.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I have no advice, just wanted to send you Hugs and tell you to hang in there







I have a difficult kiddo, but it seems like you are dealing with WAY more than I was. I started using Melatonin with my kids, they were exhausted and it made their behavior HORRIBLE. After we started giving the Melatonin they ALL were suddenly so much Happier, and Easier! I'm not saying that's the solution for you, but it's what worked for my family. FWIW my kids are 8yr, 6yr, 4yrs and 3yrs and they are all on 3mg of Melatonin.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I dunno, she's not hard in some ways, but she is just sooooo argumentative. Argh. She sleeps well after I go through a sleep routine that takes an hour even though it's three simple steps: jammies, teeth, story, sleep. I mean for crying out loud.

I should mention that she went to bed late and didn't eat because I did not argue about it. It's like she thrives on arguments. If I argue with her for about 10 minutes, she does it just fine. Wheee. Because that's how I want to spend my life. She actually demands that I "do it the wrong way" so she can correct me. I mean WTH is that about?!? I have to do it two or three times before she can show me the right way. Otherwise--freak out. I mean, there is a fake argument while we do it but it's not a genuine tantrum.

Is she the only child who does that? Is that bizarre or what? Is that normal for three? Will it end or am I encouraging her by giving in? But if I don't have the fake argument, she starts a REAL argument, so anyway she gets her way. (!!!!) So how can I avoid an argument with someone who wants one?


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Is she the only child who does that? Is that bizarre or what? Is that normal for three? Will it end or am I encouraging her by giving in? But if I don't have the fake argument, she starts a REAL argument, so anyway she gets her way. (!!!!) So how can I avoid an argument with someone who wants one?

Hah, interesting, I am the mother of a 5 y.o. and I am here to answer too.







Just throwing in my two cents worth. Things I have tried that have worked sometimes (not always, sometimes, but I had to be consistent):

- when she's argumentative like that, NOT ENGAGE - "I'm not fighting with you, this is what we're doing"
- "I'm asking for your cooperation"
- it's sad that sometimes yelling works















- "I don't like the way you're speaking to me right now. You can have your feelings about what I said and you don't have to like it, but please go have your feelings in your room." and then I WALK AWAY
- DISTRACTION (tv







, or changing the subject and engaging her in conversation that is totally different but interesting to us both)
- simply not taking any drama/tears/time wasting - walking away
- knowing that THIS WILL PASS
- making sure she gets out and has plenty of stimulation outside of the house with friends, going places, park - honestly, for my bright 5 y.o. I see a lot of argumentativeness when she's bored or discouraged by a problem outside the home

Just some thoughts. Hang in there Mama, it will pass. I am a more serious person too and although I try playful parenting, my style seems to mesh well with dd2 but not so much dd1. If we're not getting along I try to sit down and do something that we CAN connect on like offer to read a book, or bake/cook something, or take a walk or something..............









THIS IS JUST A STAGE AND WILL PASS!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Surfacing* 
Hah, interesting, I am the mother of a 5 y.o. and I am here to answer too.







Just throwing in my two cents worth. Things I have tried that have worked sometimes (not always, sometimes, but I had to be consistent):

- when she's argumentative like that, NOT ENGAGE - "I'm not fighting with you, this is what we're doing"
- "I'm asking for your cooperation"

Sometimes these work. However, they often don't. I think that is what comes with being three.

Quote:

- it's sad that sometimes yelling works















It doesn't work very often with us. I have to yell a LOT or really loud to have any effect. I hate it. I'm done with that.

Quote:

- "I don't like the way you're speaking to me right now. You can have your feelings about what I said and you don't have to like it, but please go have your feelings in your room." and then I WALK AWAY
But then we go back to three and she doesn't stay in the room.

- DISTRACTION (tv







, or changing the subject and engaging her in conversation that is totally different but interesting to us both)

Quote:

- simply not taking any drama/tears/time wasting - walking away
Sometimes this helps, but I mean... when I go back, problem is not solved and then it just takes forever.

Quote:

- making sure she gets out and has plenty of stimulation outside of the house with friends, going places, park - honestly, for my bright 5 y.o. I see a lot of argumentativeness when she's bored or discouraged by a problem outside the home
We do spend a lot of time outside (2 hrs / day on average) and she goes to 5-day-a-week preschool "summer camp" which she seems to love. She genuinely likes arguing. I don't know how to explain it. SHe will CHEERFULLY ask me to argue with her.

Quote:

If we're not getting along I try to sit down and do something that we CAN connect on like offer to read a book, or bake/cook something, or take a walk or something..............









THIS IS JUST A STAGE AND WILL PASS!


















Thanks. I think I'll do the dishes with her now.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

What is her sleep schedule like? Is she napping and then sleeping well through the night?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Mom2grrrls, until this week, when I totally gave up, it was "perfect" if I struggled: in bed by 7:15-30, stories until 7:45-8:00, asleep by 8:30. One nap between 12:30 and 3:00 not to exceed one hour.

But I am so tired of the struggle. (Oh, she didn't want to do the dishes with me.) Maybe it's too much sleep for her, too much nutrition. Maybe she just needs to sleep less and eat less? Honestly, I don't know. I'm so through. Tonight I did ask if she planned to go to the dentist with me, since she wasn't brushing. She said yes, and I told her how upset the dentist would be, but that was her choice, I didn't mind. She brushed her teeth herself. She didn't want to go to bed herself but I had her do it.

She seems more relaxed. I guess the whole routine is too much stress for her. It makes me sad to think I can't provide for her basic needs and safety without screaming or going insane, though.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Have you read "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf? He's got a technique in there that I think he describes as "waiting for the bus". It's a bit like what you're doing, only with slightly different expectations. You ask your child to do something and you wait, as if you're waiting for the bus. The key is to not get flustered and upset. You act as if they're going to do it, and you have got all the time in the world to do it.

And I have to say, you sound very burnt out. It's hard to parent when you're at the end of the rope. How can you do some good self care so that you have more energy? Have you been taking care of yourself?

You may or may not continue doing the 'waiting for the bus' routine once you've got more energy. But it would be nice to have it be a decision that you've made based on what works, rather than a wholesale abdication out of pure exhaustion.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Age three was the worst age for me and my dd. I think that letting go of what you can and just sticking to a few expectations, like safety and respectful tones is a good thing. I think not having so many expectations would have helped me a lot when my dd was this age, I went to the opposite extreme and had too many that were too high and it didn't work well for either of us. I think this plan is fine, but I encourage you to get time to yourself (maybe by putting her in Head Start or preschool a couple days a week) so you have the energy to push the things that matter for her health. At this point sleeping doesn't if you can stay home or she can nap as long as she needs to at daycare. When she eats isn't important either because she will do it when she is hungry, and if you have only healthy food in the house what she eats isn't going to be a big issue. Whenever I can drop requirements for bed, eating, etc... I do and it helps my dd feel control over her life and me feel peaceful and recharged.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Very well said LynnS6.

Hmm this whole discussion is now reminding me more of the 3 y.o. stage. My 2.5 y.o. is heading more and more into this territory, and I sure remember dd1 going through it. I think it's about wanting more independence and control in their lives. Giving her a chance to make some choices, and picking your battles comes to mind.

I remember talking to my doctor in frustration at how dd1 would always oppose me and argue with me. I was flabbergasted that other adults would say how cooperative and eager to please she was, how friendly and sweet. Not with me! I got the other side of her at home. I wondered what I was doing wrong. The doctor said she gives me the hardest side of her because she trusts me that I can handle her. She pushes my buttons and tests my limits and shows a range of feelings and behaviours, good and bad, that might not be socially appropriate or acceptable elsewhere. She feels comfortable enough to let it all hang out with me. I was like, "Oh, great, thanks. That's a real compliment."







But it did put it into perspective a little bit.

Just putting that out there in case it helps. I agree that you sound very burnt out and need some time to refresh and regroup, take care of yourself.

Sometimes a very small tweak in our behaviour and style can make a big difference.

I certainly don't have all the answers either.







Take care.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
She genuinely likes arguing. I don't know how to explain it. SHe will CHEERFULLY ask me to argue with her.

Oh I just wanted to add one thing here. Is it possible that she wants to connect with you but doesn't know how, and this is one way to engage attention and intensity? I wonder if there is something else that you both like to do together.

I remember in some of the darkest times, when I thought I was going crazy and we were arguing all the time and I felt like dd1 hated me, I would take her for ice cream a couple of times a week, even in the winter, because for 1 hour we would have some peace and quiet, and a positive relationship experience.

Okay, just tossing these into the ether. Take care EdnaMarie, it's not easy. Get a rest and recharge, you'll have energy to climb back on the horse again.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Learning how to avoid power struggles is a great skill. But, it feels different than avoiding your child because they are overwhelming and you feel burned out. It sounds like you are doing the latter and you need a break and a new plan. I hope someone can give you space to regroup and refresh your energy to deal with your spirited dd!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Learning how to avoid power struggles is a great skill. But, it feels different than avoiding your child because they are overwhelming and you feel burned out. It sounds like you are doing the latter and you need a break and a new plan. I hope someone can give you space to regroup and refresh your energy to deal with your spirited dd!

Oh, absolutely. I am not avoiding power struggles because that is not possible with DD. She loves power struggles. It is her raison d'etre. She goes to pre-school five days a week, plus time at the park with friends (during which I do not monitor her except for safety) five days a week... you'd think that would help, but it's more or less the same (though she loves it).

I have been on the net avoiding reality because of this, LOL. Yes, I should probably do more positive stuff, but when I tried to involve her in what I'm doing, she still acts out making it impossible or just plain refuses.

Sigh.

We'll just plow through. I thought I had requirements down to basic human respect, nutrition and sleep but we are cutting down on those. Though she just invents more reasons to fight. Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhh. RIght now she's watching some really weird cartoon with talking animals. I should get something done.


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## Rlin (Apr 9, 2010)

DS is only 2 years old but I do not fight with him over food nor sleep. It makes us both miserable. He sometimes stays up late (10 pm), but is happily playing. He's fine with me laying down and finds me when wants to sleep. And is asleep within 10 mins (this includes teeth brushing, potty and nursing). Naps are the same, but with the difference that he's not allowed to nap after 3pm. Then we just do fun things together to keep him awake until 7pm. More days than not he asks me at a reasonable time (8pm) to go to bed. Eating is the same. I offer him healthy options, if he eats it I am happy, if not, I assume he won't starve himself.

He has tantrums, and the last days he's been going through a growth spurt, which multiplies the tantrums. But I expect him to be his normal self again in a few days. Today was better already. I just go with his flow. There are boundaries (no hitting and kicking) of course and tooth brushing is one of the few things I make him do. But there are ways to make it fun. (His stuffed animals brush his teeth when he's very uncooperative, I have brushed his teeth with him laying down, upside down, etc)

Good luck!


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
teeth."

Incentives, punishments, guidance, nothing works.

Maybe she will start to be kind and friendly if I am totally, entirely indifferent? Or it may never happen no matter what. What do you think?

I'm so tired of arguing.

Incentives, punishments, guidance and arguing are attempts to get a child to eventually agree.

I'm sure I will come across as old-fashioned and harsh. However, this is how I handled this with our DS1 and I have no regrets about it at all. He tends to be extremely argumentative and want to control situations. When he was three I read a book called "Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child". It was a lifesaver for me -totally turned things around at our house, ending up with all of us happier. Anyway.....

I chose only a few things that were really important to me...so overall, he had a lot of freedom and control. But, on those few things.....I never argued. Never. I also never let him successfully oppose me. There was never any discussion or argument, because I would not discuss it. I told him once what was happening, and then I carried it out, regardless of what he did. I realized that _I do not need a 3 yo to agree with me._ I realized I would wear myself down to a quivering nub if I tried to get him to agree with everything I wanted him to go along with, and that he fully grasped the dynamic and it was a game to him. I decided not to play anymore.

When he had choices or complete freedom about something, I made sure he knew that so he could fully enjoy it. And I really was and still am very flexible in most areas. But when it was one of the few things I was taking charge of, I made sure he knew that, and there was no negotiating it. This decision was sanity-saving for me. He also got with the program pretty quickly and the struggles evaporated. Really. After a couple of weeks he figured out the game was over and wasn't coming back.

I have an acquaintance who went the route of leaving it all up to her 3 yo. She would make suggestions but felt that she should never "force" anything. Watching this unfold was alarming. This child would stay up until 1 am...kept her waiting in a parking lot in the heat for over an hour while she waited for him to decide to get into his carseat...and beat holes in their walls with a hammer. I know many here are into consensual/non-coercive idea, but having witnessed this, I know without a doubt it is not for me and never will be. Deep down I really do believe that parents are in charge, whether we choose to claim that or not. What works for me is to give the kids a lot of freedom in all areas that I can, but in some key things I am in charge and they know it.

I came back to add.....I realize what I did may sound harsh/controlling/etc. However looking at the before and after of the situation....before I was frazzled, resentful, exhausted, and almost constantly angry. It's tough to feel close to your child in an AP way when that is your state of mind. After establishing control of the few important things, letting the rest go, and extinguishing the struggles, we enjoyed each others' company and our days together. We had fun. I enjoyed my 3 yo and my baby and most of the time he was (and still is) sweet and affectionate. From any perspective it was all way better. I think from an AP perspective especially it was also much better because we had a positive attitude towards each other and were much closer. We are still very close and affectionate. I think all kids need limits, and some kids need them to be very firmly set. IMO that's what our DS1 needed, and we were all happier after I did that.

One more thing I want to add - I never told him how he should _feel_. I made it a point that he was welcome to feel however he felt about something. I was not "mad" at him for not wanting to do something or being upset about it...in fact I dispensed with getting mad or being reactive at all. I just took care of business without any emotion about it. For example, with his teeth - he had early childhood caries and weak enamel and had three fillings and a crown at age 2, so to me the care of his teeth at age 3 was absolutely not optional. He could be in charge of his feelings and be mad or whatver, and I was in charge of his teeth. He was welcome to his own feelings about it though. So there was never any emotion-laden struggle over how he "should" be okay with it.


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## wondermama (May 10, 2005)

I'm a Waldorf mom, and I find working with the child's basic temperament VERY helpful -- for instance, it sounds as if you have a child who would be typed as "choleric" -- strong-willed, intense, likes a challenge.

So, challenge her! "I'll bet you can't be all tucked in and asleep by (insert desired bedtime here)." And watch her "argue" with that (she'll be saying, "oh, yeah? watch me!") Make the argument with *something* instead of with you -- she does need to argue, to challenge, that's just her way -- your role is get out of the way and give her challenges to meet that help her direct her energies in appropriate ways and help you get your goals met as well.

Here's an excerpt about cholerics, from a Waldorf teacher/home educator named Donna Simmons:

"Cholerics want to be first -- they are strong-willed and self-directed. It can often feel like their energy is too big to fit into one body. Usually they have a tremendous will and the task for parents lies in giving the child worthy challenges. For cholerics can become self-centered and selfish, only wanting to pursue their own interests and desires and, if not helped toward balance, can bully and intimidate those who stand in their way. A parent needs to conquer her own "stuff" to deal effectively with a choleric, especially where anger can flare up. Meeting fire with fire is rarely helpful though it is good, on occasion, to let a choleric see how upset and angry his actions can make people. Generally, though, staying calm, centered and somewhat detached (I don't think she means detached as in not emotionally attached to your child in general, but rather not engaged in the struggle of the moment) are the best ways to deal with a choleric child.

A choleric needs challenges and if not provided with them will create them herself. Create clear and consistent rules and expectations and do not let your child's (intellectual, artistic, musical, athletic) brilliance cower you into standing back. Think "isometric exercises": this child requires powerful resistance to push against in order to strengthen her own inner forces and, critically, to help them develop kind-spirited and compassionate qualities which take into account the needs of the other. Do not let your choleric become a bully.

One needs to appeal to the better nature of cholerics, to the great leader that waits to be born:
(these are for older children but you get the idea)
"I wonder if you can really count up to 1000 -- I don't think that's possible!"
"I need your help because the baby is ill -- you need to make lunch today."
"Well, you may knit three rows -- I bet you can't manage 5."

These are all appropriate gauntlets to throw down to cholerics."

I've also found it helpful with my choleric ds to create challenges that we meet together -- again, getting out of the way as the object and his need to challenge. For example, "We need to get to swimming lessons by 3 -- I don't think we'll make it! We still have to get your swimsuit on, feed the cat, get a drink and get you strapped into your carseat in TEN MINUTES! Can we do it?" Then we are "arguing" with time, instead of with each other. Also, the look of pure satisfaction when he has "beat the clock" (and happily strapped in, on his way to his lesson *on time*) tells me this really meets a need for him. Plus, I'm not the one getting challenged, argued with, etc. Everybody wins. Whew!

Hope this helps!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Have you tried doing things that your dd probably would like to do, rather than just involving her in what you are doing? I used to take flour in a tub and a big blanket into the front yard to let dd play in and we would play for a long time, we would have a trip to the coffee shop for a treat after I picked her up from school early, we went on long trips to the zoo, truly listening to her talk or tell a story in the car, and I read a lot to her. We spent hours reading together. Sometimes if she didn't want to read I would say that was fine because I was reading to myself then pick up a kid book and start reading, she would always come over and snuggle up to listen and see the pictures. If you can find the energy to connect with her doing something she loves everyday I think you will start to see her start to seek that kind of attention and your desire to avoid her may go down.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

Oh, absolutely. I am not avoiding power struggles because that is not possible with DD. She loves power struggles. It is her raison d'etre. She goes to pre-school five days a week, plus time at the park with friends (during which I do not monitor her except for safety) five days a week... you'd think that would help, but it's more or less the same (though she loves it).>>>>>

Actually it might not help at all. Perhaps there's too much interaction with peers at this point. Hold On to Your Kids explains more in depth, you may want to check it out


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
But, on those few things.....I never argued. Never. I also never let him successfully oppose me. There was never any discussion or argument, because I would not discuss it. I told him once what was happening, and then I carried it out, regardless of what he did.

What, exactly, does this look like? I don't think it sounds harsh/ old-fashioned/ whatever...but I just have NO idea what it looks like. Do you mean you use physical force (eg to get in to the car seat, to leave the house...)? I understand that possibility with a smaller, younger child, but physical is not possible with my 50-lb, strong & strong-willed 4.5 year old.

If not physical, then what?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"I would not discuss it. I told him once what was happening, and then I carried it out, regardless of what he did."

So... did you belt him to the bed, or stay there and hold him down, or what? Did you use your knees to hold his arms down on the tile bathroom floor, getting kicked in the back while you brushed his teeth? Did you force-feed him with a tube, or just by tying his limbs? When you wanted him to get his shoes on to go pick up your husband, did you have to hold him by one foot (that's 30 lbs with one hand) and put the shoe on with the other because otherwise he'd run away?

Like that, "carried it out"?

I'm serious. Because you see... We already did that for a year. Carrying certain things out when my child doesn't want to do them would literally require this. And I'm effing TIRED of physically forcing her EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's been a darn year. A year. Of forcing most of the time. I mean, we're talking holding her down around 10 times a day, just because I refuse to argue. I started when she was two because I, too, thought it had to sink in. Right? Right? Eventually, they will stop fighting... right?

(Okay, not ten times a day. Teeth brushing = 2, naptime = 1, bedtime = 1, my chore for carseat = 2 (in and out of), for a total of six times, about five days a week. And of course not all of those were "holding down"--some were carrying out, etc.)

But she didn't. So I tried more emotional manipulation. Rewards. Punishments. Anything.

If not after a year of consistent bedtimes, mealtimes, pre-school times, free time in the afternoon, shopping rules, then when?

Maybe this is coming up now because she's grown a little bit, and she's now simply too big for me to force anymore. I can't force her to stay in bed, as she shares a room with her baby sister. So the whole screaming while being forcibly held down is (a) not how I want her to learn to sleep, (b) cruel if it is not to any purpose at all, i.e. does not have the required result and (c) totally impractical because baby will wake up and then I'll have two screaming kids.

I appreciate the no-nonsense approach, I really, really do. It was my approach for health and safety issues for a freaking YEAR. But I just can't any more. It's not working (she has not learned to comply), I can't do it physically, and it makes me feel guilty because sometimes it causes her to drop to the floor or get scratched (you know, not like a deep scratch, just a white mark) by the carseat straps, or whatever.









Quote:

Perhaps there's too much interaction with peers at this point. Hold On to Your Kids explains more in depth, you may want to check it ou
There is absolutely no way I'm keeping her home from school. She has been begging to go to school for over a year (so, since before she turned 2.5), she has never wanted to stay home from school, not a single day, and she begs on a daily basis to go play with her friends. She loves it. I'm going to be honest that I have read chapters of HOtYK and I don't really agree with the underlying philosophy of it, though obviously some parts are useful.

Plus when we were home all the time, for two months before I could enroll her in stuff after our move, it didn't help one bit.

Quote:

Have you tried doing things that your dd probably would like to do, rather than just involving her in what you are doing?
Yeah. She loves being the center of attention and doing her favorite things. GEnerally she's quite well behaved those times.

Sadly, I am married and have an infant as well.







That prevents me from doing it her way 24/7 or even 1/7, really, because baby's always there.

Oh, and sometimes I just indulge her and argue with her. It really is her favorite thing, LOL. She will try to get her baby sister to do it. "Hey, take this toy. Then I'll say, 'No, it's mine'..."

Wondermomma, you are absolutely right and have her personality pegged to a "T".







It does help somewhat... except I wonder if I can be that mom for her, and still have any soul left over.

I do use those tactics. I get sick of doing them (quite literally) three or four times an hour, for everything. EVERYTHING must be timed or gamed or manipulated (reverse psychology). Peeing. Buckling up. Unbuckling. Getting into bed. I admit that there are times when I (melancholic-phlegmatic / XNTP... sigh) just can't do it. How many peas can you eat? How many bites can you turn that sandwich into? Can you be quiet this whole song? I just don't think that way, so it takes 1000% of my mental energy to come up with a challenge every time. The more I do it, the more she wants it.

And then we have poop on the floor (baby, not her, thank God) and I'm ready to lose it.

And that's not sustainable for me as a human. I don't mind her arguing in theory, but I can't be that person for her. I feel like I'm being bullied.







My husband has the exact same personality, so between the two of them sometimes I just want to scream.

I will try to think of a way I can be that person, to be that mom. As I said I've looked for counselors who will help me become more playful, more competitive, more cheerful. 24/7. Do you think cognitive behavior therapy could help?


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
So... did you belt him to the bed, or stay there and hold him down, or what? Did you use your knees to hold his arms down on the tile bathroom floor, getting kicked in the back while you brushed his teeth? Did you force-feed him with a tube, or just by tying his limbs? When you wanted him to get his shoes on to go pick up your husband, did you have to hold him by one foot (that's 30 lbs with one hand) and put the shoe on with the other because otherwise he'd run away?

I really have very few situations in which I insist on control. Here is how I have dealt with most of them:

Bedtime: I have never held either of my children into bed. Either one of us lays down with him, or if he won't settle down, we leave him in the room alone and walk him back in repeatedly as many times as it takes. The times we have wanted them in bed before we went to bed (so we could watch a grownup show) we have often taken 2 hrs to watch a 1 hour recorded show because we repeatedly pause it to walk a kid back into his room during that 2 hours. It's irritating but we know they will grow out of this. (and, in fact, now it seems they have.)

Brushing teeth: Our pedi dentist gave me a technique to use where I am standing or sitting behind the child with one arm across their arms and the other brushing from above and behind, making use of the fact that a yelling mouth is an open mouth. Sometimes I open my mouth and fake-funny scream too while saying "aaaaaaahhhh !" like I want him to do and the mad kid starts laughing while getting his teeth brushed. It's not ideal to brush teeth this way but it's better than nothing and if nothing else I can get some xylitol brushed around in there.

Carseat: Yes I physically pick them up and strap them in. I still occasionally do with with our 4.5 yo. It's been rough on my knees. I don't feel bad about it because by then the child has had *many* warnings that we are leaving in x minutes. 4.5 yo has decided it's just part of life and on the rare occasions that I still need to do this with him, after I strap him in he hugs me.

Shoes: I just bring them with us. The compromise of being barefoot in the car is enough to defuse the tension. Once I forgot them though, and had to take a barefoot kid into a Target for shoes. If a kid is refusing shoes when it's time to get out of the van, he gets carried upside down over my shoulder until he changes his mind. (I have done this with a 4 yo while pushing a younger one in the stroller with the other hand. ) The fact that he doesn't get a good verbal fight or emotional reaction out of it, and we are still going wherever we were going anyway so he hasn't succeeded in changing our course, and that he feels silly being carried like that, are enough to convince him to put on his shoes and walk, and since he's usually laughing by that time, he's not mad about it anymore.

Running away: I only recently stopped using a stroller with a 5 pt harness for trips into the library because 4.5 yo would run away and become impossible to catch in the rows of library shelves. So he had to ride in the stroller at the library until he stopped this behavior. I got some looks for that. I was prepared to come back at anyone who criticized me with "by all means I will take him out if _you_ will catch him". Nobody ever gave me a chance to use that line though.

Eating: They don't have to eat. Really I can't make them. However I can and do remove the privilege of cookies before bed. If they don't eat something healthy for dinner, whether it's what we made or some other easy, healthy option that is quick to prepare, they don't get to fill up on treats. They either consume something healthy or go hungry. I do give options on the healthy foods though.

I thought of another: Parking lots. 4.5 yo must either hold my hand, or be riding in something, or be carried. This isn't that hard now that 7 yo has learned to "stick like glue". It was much harder when DS2 was a baby and it was DS1 who had to hold, ride, or be carried. I pretty much took the stroller everywhere we went, and only left it in the car if I could substitute a shopping cart. I also didn't babywear much with DS2 because it made it too hard for me to carry DS1 at the same time or lift him into a cart.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
What, exactly, does this look like? I don't think it sounds harsh/ old-fashioned/ whatever...but I just have NO idea what it looks like. Do you mean you use physical force (eg to get in to the car seat, to leave the house...)? I understand that possibility with a smaller, younger child, but physical is not possible with my 50-lb, strong & strong-willed 4.5 year old.

If not physical, then what?

If necessary I physically move the child from point A to point B and I do it with zero emotional reaction because that is what they are looking for. I carry our 4.5 yo sideways, like a log. With our older son the refusing behavior had already stopped by this age. (It had also started at a younger age). I think our 4.5 yo is almost done with it.

I came back to add: in all of this my objective has never been to shame or punish them. It is to make their efforts at resistance in these areas unproductive and predictably boring. Unproductive - their resistance doesn't result in any change of course - we are still doing what we are doing. It also doesn't get them the fun of an argument, power struggle or emotional reaction. Predictably boring - pretty much the same thing happens every time they try it and resistance never gives them any kind of payoff. In some of these situations if they end up feeling silly, that's a side benefit. It often leads to humor which is very helpful in breaking the cycle of resistance.

Also I want to point out that none of this was necessarily effortless or easy on my part. Many times it was pretty challenging. But I had the hope that I was moving them in the direction of giving up the behavior (because it didn't accomplish anything) and becoming more cooperative.


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## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow - I read halfway through and then realized that you were getting great and lengthy replies and I stopped reading. Please excuse if this was already said:

To satisfy her request "Argue with me!" you might find some (midday!) physical activity that you can do together so she can test her strength with you - wrestling? pushing hands? tug of war?

That quote just rang out at me as a real need to push-pull-bend thing.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
My husband has the exact same personality, so between the two of them sometimes I just want to scream.

Have you asked your dh what worked with him as a child? Is he home enough to help out?

I wonder if "Love and Logic" would work with her? It's a very no-nonsense approach, which focuses on logical consequences. You don't brush your teeth? Fine. But that means you don't get sugar because sugar + mouth bacteria will rot your teeth faster. You don't go to bed? Fine. You still have to get up tomorrow morning no matter what. It's a bit more logic and 'hard' than I like, but my kids aren't as oppositional as your dd sounds.

I think figuring out what you'll do and not do is a good thing. I'd sit your dd down at a calm moment and explain. I'm tired of arguing, so this is how I'm going to treat it.... (that's where counseling could help).


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

When I insist on things there is often a "bribe" associated with them. Usually it is something really fun that she likes to do and that I can do with her, but absolutely will not if what I am telling her to do isn't done first. I also disengage until it is done if it looks like an argument or debate may start, I will even lock myself in the bathroom with a book (though you may need to take the baby and hopefully you can lock yourself in your room) to avoid the whining and deal making my dd does in order to try to get the fun thing without doing the not so fun thing. If you have already tried bribery/ when/then phrases and they don't work then I don't have any advice. I realize bribery isn't the greatest thing, but I like a peaceful happy life and bribery definitely helps. Usually the things are reading books, watching tv, or if the thing I want her to do is very likely to be strongly resisted it is dessert.

Since your dd watches tv already you could tie the health things she needs to do to that. I knew a lady who gave her tv addicted son an hour of viewing in the morning and an hour at night and took time away based on his behavior without arguing. She had a jar with twelve marbles in it, each time she took a marble from the jar he lost five minutes of tv time. She said he got cut off in the middle of the tv time twice because of losing marbles and after that she just needed to warn him and he stopped. That may also help if the tv time is something your dd wants really badly and you have a plan for where to send her if she pushes past the limits of your sanity.


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
Also I want to point out that none of this was necessarily effortless or easy on my part. Many times it was pretty challenging. But I had the hope that I was moving them in the direction of giving up the behavior (because it didn't accomplish anything) and becoming more cooperative.

This all sounds good, and I applaud you. Really - I am not being snarky.
In some of the situations you describe, it would be impossible (impossible!) for me to remain emotionally neutral as I would be getting bitten to the point of blood blisters, hit, kicked, and more.







My son just cannot be worked this way...now, most days, we are mostly successful at getting along and working things out, but it is such a fine, fine line and I have to be so skilled and delicate...it is, as the OP has said, exhausting.


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I realize bribery isn't the greatest thing, but I like a peaceful happy life and bribery definitely helps.









I try darn hard to limit it, but I sure have dropped my anti-bribery ideals!!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
If necessary I physically move the child from point A to point B and I do it with zero emotional reaction because that is what they are looking for. I carry our 4.5 yo sideways, like a log. With our older son the refusing behavior had already stopped by this age. (It had also started at a younger age). I think our 4.5 yo is almost done with it.

I came back to add: in all of this my objective has never been to shame or punish them. It is to make their efforts at resistance in these areas unproductive and predictably boring. Unproductive - their resistance doesn't result in any change of course - we are still doing what we are doing. It also doesn't get them the fun of an argument, power struggle or emotional reaction. Predictably boring - pretty much the same thing happens every time they try it and resistance never gives them any kind of payoff. In some of these situations if they end up feeling silly, that's a side benefit. It often leads to humor which is very helpful in breaking the cycle of resistance.

Also I want to point out that none of this was necessarily effortless or easy on my part. Many times it was pretty challenging. But I had the hope that I was moving them in the direction of giving up the behavior (because it didn't accomplish anything) and becoming more cooperative.

Okay, but LaundryCrisis, you said you did it for several weeks then your child realized you were serious. Or something to that effect. My issue is, I can see a few weeks or months. But a year, simply because the child feels like arguing the point? Not because of any (rational or irrational) aversion to the activity in question?

Surely, if she were going to learn that it's just going to happen, she would have learned by now?

Quote:

Have you asked your dh what worked with him as a child? Is he home enough to help out?
When he was a child, his dad and brothers would open up a can of whup'ass on him. His sisters got smacked across the face HARD. MIL said she didn't like to but it only happened a couple of times for each child as they learned fast, because the pain made them realize how serious it was.

So, yeah. Inflicting pain=not an option.

As for being home, no, he's military.

Onegirl, my issue is that since she already gets lots of fruits and vegetables, and since I need to bring her sister to the park etc. and can't leave her alone while we do that, I have precious few bribes at my disposal. I mean how many video game on pbskids.org or pieces of candy do I want her to have? She was ending up expecting bribes all the time and it was a bribery arms race. So I stopped that awhile ago.

I'm not opposed to bribes but they weren't working with us as along-term solution.

I want to teach my child, not coerce her. I'm willing to coerce, I am, but what about parenting?


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## tangledblue (Apr 5, 2008)

No helpful advice, but just wanted to say I hope you can get some time to yourself every day or at least every week. And maybe a counselor who is used to working with preschoolers can help you and DD come up with some ways to deal with the situation? It sounds like things have not been good for a long time. Hoping for better soon!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

TB, thanks.

Your post made me think. It sounds like it's been awhile, but I feel it's really started in the past month or so. And that made me think further.

You know what has changed in the past month?

My 15-month-old has started tantruming and refusing. And she's way harder than DD1 (3.5 yo DD) was at that age. AHA.

So, although obviously a baby is not as hard to discipline, I am still using my toddler "tricks" on her: "I am counting to three. Do X or I'll do it for you." (Believe it or not, the baby actually appears to understand this as she runs away at two or starts doing it at that moment... I am talking about very simple things like letting go of something ("let go"), coming inside the house ("come in"), coming off a toy at the park so we can go ("let's go home"), that sort of thing) I have had to be a lot more hands on with her, plus I swear she grew two inches in the past two weeks. (Her=DD2.)

So in retrospect what has happened is I think I have subconsciously been graduating DD1 through a few of these stages because physically I cannot restrain them both while shopping (they are both shopping nightmares and I get no respite unless DH is deployed, if he's away at training I get no free daycare), eating, whatever.

In addition, as I said DD2 has started to NEED more park time. She likes to climb, swing, and slide. It's summer. So that as a bribe/reward/loss-is-punishment whatever you want to call it, is gone. It used to be a big reward.

I do feel irritated that I still need to physically redirect DD1. I really do. Like, "make me!" And I do still feel that's a failure of that discipline method on her. I feel physically sick whenever I read things like "they know they can't..." or "I just make them..." because that is not how it works with us. She will never "know" she "can't" because her mind automatically says "YES I CAN" and even if she's never done it, that makes it all the more appealing a challenge.

She has cousins who are spanked. Some of them submitted, but she has at least two that will say in their native language, "bring it on! bring it on!" WHILE being spanked or smacked. Um. I mean I am not suggesting it's an option--on the contrary, that just illustrates what kind of temperament we are dealing with and how totally counterproductive physical discipline is (whether it be punitive or redirective...). Anything for a fight.

Quote:

I came back to add: in all of this my objective has never been to shame or punish them. It is to make their efforts at resistance in these areas unproductive and predictably boring. Unproductive - their resistance doesn't result in any change of course - we are still doing what we are doing. It also doesn't get them the fun of an argument, power struggle or emotional reaction. Predictably boring - pretty much the same thing happens every time they try it and resistance never gives them any kind of payoff. In some of these situations if they end up feeling silly, that's a side benefit. It often leads to humor which is very helpful in breaking the cycle of resistance.
See... if you put them in time-out, is that not like, emotional for them? I have found any physical contact with my daughter to be a huge trigger. She LOVES going in and out of time out ("hah hah I'm not staying! you have to catch me!") to the point that it actually becomes a reward for her. Tag with mommy, even if dinner burns and little sister eats a piece of chalk. So I am sorry to say that sometimes I have to lock her in the bedroom for her three minutes of calm-down time. We let her know we're right there but with a baby and sometimes hot food on the stove (or water in the bath, you get the idea) I can't always be with her, and anyway, I find that that winds her up.

We have never done anything but straight removal... she still screams. It doesn't seem to diminish her interest in opposition. I think that's because as Wondermama said, it's just her temperament.

Quote:

Wow - I read halfway through and then realized that you were getting great and lengthy replies and I stopped reading. Please excuse if this was already said:

To satisfy her request "Argue with me!" you might find some (midday!) physical activity that you can do together so she can test her strength with you - wrestling? pushing hands? tug of war?

That quote just rang out at me as a real need to push-pull-bend thing.
Hm. Interesting idea. She doesn't like physical struggles much. She cries if the other kids tag her at tag, and I've seen them tagging... it is REALLY not hard. She only likes winning. She does like to tickle.

Quote:

I wonder if "Love and Logic" would work with her? It's a very no-nonsense approach, which focuses on logical consequences. You don't brush your teeth? Fine. But that means you don't get sugar because sugar + mouth bacteria will rot your teeth faster. You don't go to bed? Fine. You still have to get up tomorrow morning no matter what. It's a bit more logic and 'hard' than I like, but my kids aren't as oppositional as your dd sounds.
No, we have tried that. That I think will work with DD2, if she's like me as she seems to be. I like love and logic and think it would work well with an NT child. DD1, not so much because she still wants to argue. She will just say, "No, I CAN have sugar and not brush my teeth." Um. Hello. Here, you can either get further sucked in, or ignore her. Ignoring=tantrum. Sucked in=total waste of time.

Quote:

I think figuring out what you'll do and not do is a good thing. I'd sit your dd down at a calm moment and explain. I'm tired of arguing, so this is how I'm going to treat it.... (that's where counseling could help).
Yes. Perhaps I should take her with me to a family counselor.

I think that realizing that she hasn't gotten worse, but that she simply isn't beyond the physical thing has helped.

Oh, I tried to race her today.

Me: "Who can get down the stairs fastest?"
Her: "I don't want to race."
Me: "Okay." Walks down stairs slowly.
Her: "WAAAAAAIT!"
Me: "Please be polite."
Her: "Wait for me please..."

Whimpers down the stairs, offended that she didn't go first.

I mean WTH. It's like I can't be nice or fun. She wants to be offended.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Okay, but LaundryCrisis, you said you did it for several weeks then your child realized you were serious. Or something to that effect. My issue is, I can see a few weeks or months. But a year, simply because the child feels like arguing the point? Not because of any (rational or irrational) aversion to the activity in question?

Surely, if she were going to learn that it's just going to happen, she would have learned by now?
From reading through the posts, I think a critical difference is the element of total neutrality and not engaging in order for this to be effective--from the examples you posted with your dd, you feel sucked in eventually by the arguments and emotionally drained by her in the process. If you feel this way then she knows it and the exchange isn't really what this person described.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

from the examples you posted with your dd, you feel sucked in eventually by the arguments and emotionally drained by her in the process
Actually, I have been getting sucked in more and more as I've gotten away from the physical redirection process. Though, yes, some things require a much longer period of physical restraing (e.g. teeth-brushing, forcing her to either stay away from the table or eat like a human but not stay at the table and play with food wastefully, etc.) and yes, I do get sucked in and irritated.

Maybe I just find it hard to turn myself off and on. If I do "turn off" my emotions, I find it hard to reconnect afterwards, I think because I feel dehumanized. Like, I have had to be a soulless monster for ten minutes (holding you down screaming, brushing your teeth) and I find it really hard to let that go. I just remain cold and unfeeling towards her for much longer than necessary (because I can't just click turn back on and say okay I'm nice lovey cuddle mommy, nothing happened) and my mom pointed that out so now I try to tell her how I feel and what it's doing to me... but yes that does give her a reaction.

Oh, and then there's the whining. You can't physically force them to stop whining, can you? You can't physically force them to stop shouting or calling names, can you? You can ignore it but not stop it. Ignoring it for days on end has made it worse. Soooooo.... I am at a loss to deal with the "mouth" and I don't mean contradiction, I mean name-calling, etc. I can make her leave the room, sure. And I do that. But it's not making a difference.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think it is okay to experiment to see what works, because every parent/child is different. It sounds like that is what you are trying to do, and books are a good way to find new ideas. Reading your posts you do sound very frustrated, a feeling I imagine will need to be addressed outside the issues of your dd--you said your husband is military, so are you alone 24 hours a day with a 3 year old and 15 month old? I can't tell you how much that skews perspective. You must need a break badly and I hope there is a way to facilitate that irl.

I wanted to ask--at school do the teachers have this much of a problem with getting her to cooperate? Because it is helpful to know whether she is developmentally incapable of complying with expectations, or whether she is choosing to unleash this attitude on you, yet able to reign it in for others. Conversely, if she behaves at school that might indicate that your burnout is a factor in her behavior--her teachers get to go home but you don't, so naturally they are not burned out with her.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Heartmama- Thanks so much.

I'm not alone. I have friends and I meet other friends at the park daily. I have nice neighbors. Baby doesn't care to be left at the babysitter but I do have one I can count on.

I have asked the teachers in a general way, as I always do, how she's doing, and they usually say she's great. She has always behaved for other people, but not for family. It's not only me: it's my mom, my husband, and anyone she feels comfortable with, like "aunties" or "uncles". Though, I should say, she certainly has good and bad days and frankly when I see her around other kids, she appears normal. She is fine interacting in a group. She is also fine when in a kid-targeted environment. I'm sorry to say that will not be my home until I'm divorced. It just won't be. No counseling, nothing will ever make it like that.

The problem is when it's just me, because I am only one person and I can't absorb all her energy, you know? She wants to play/fight/challenge 100% of the time.

That is fine when she's at the park with other kids her age; at pre-school with planned tasks; with me and I do not have to focus half my energy on something else (sister, food, etc.).

It's NOT fine during dinner, trying to get out of the house, talk to dad on the phone, etc. Because there is her sister whom I can't let fall down the stairs, and it makes every task into this absolutely abusrd battle.

I recognize that it's more of a mismatch than a problem of hers, per se. I really do think if she had a mom that could be playful all the time or laugh it off, she would do better. Or if she were the second or third child and could argue with brothers and sisters. It's this her-with-me that turns into her-against-me because I'm not able to plan other things for her to butt her head up against, that is the problem.

And I appreciate you ladies helping me work that out!

I think I am going to develop a plan like the following:

-Make it a game from the beginning (maybe a notecard with five or six "game" frameworks on it so I don't have to think every time?).
-Invite her to make it a game. Maybe she is just so used to arguing with me that she tries that, but if I keep asking her to do it, she will?
-If she doesn't comply or want to play, remember my 3-2-1-or-I-make-you and make sure I always have an "out" (like defensive driving, I need defensive parenting... make sure I always have a way to physically get to both of them even if this means... sigh... a 10% addition to our shopping budget as there are no stores in town with restrains that hold my kids. ).
-Last case scenario, totally emotion-free time-out in her room (I called to get locks on the rooms... I know it sounds harsh, but believe me, if I have to stand there it will NOT help her calm down, plus I cannot maintain emotion-free with the baby and my husband on the phone etc.).

For "mouth", I need a plan. I'm sorry but ignoring doesn't work, and at the same time "mouth" happens when I really don't have a lot of options to isolate her. I don't want to feed the fire. Car, for example. RIght now I turn up the music really loud. I hate rewards charts because long-term incentives don't work and then once the incentive's gone (we have tried this) what are you left with?

That is what I do when I'm Good Me, but often I haven't slept, DH is bugging me (phone), or whatever. And then I go straight to, "Oh yes you will" and there we go. Or I slip up and ask her politely, as if she cares, LOL!

And no, no breaks, but even when he wasn't military, I didn't get breaks. I don't know any moms in real life that get breaks, to be honest. Unless you count working a break! Except one who has a maid, but she is like, wayyy out of my league, income wise.

Okay, this is my last post for 24 hours... really. I have my plan and I'll implement it. I will let you know if I come up with magic for someone verbally abusing me. Sigh.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
From reading through the posts, I think a critical difference is the element of total neutrality and not engaging in order for this to be effective--

For the first few weeks I did the steps in the book I was totally neutral unless we were engaged in a positive exchange. Sometimes I had to go off by myself for a minute to get control of myself. The book stressed how important it was to give the child zero payoff of any kind of emotional reaction to negative behavior. Eventually it became a habit. Instead of getting mad I would automatically detach when he started. I would make no eye contact and only speak to say "nope" when he did something physical - no verbal exchanges at all. Otherwise I was drawn into the game. I would keep this up until the tone changed. Not being able to get any reaction or emotional contact from me seemed to bother him much more than getting a negative reaction ever did. He never cared about the negative reactions, and they never made a bit of difference to help the situation. They just got me all worked up and exhausted for nothing. In fact he seemed to feed off them for the next incident. The "stone wall" made a much bigger impression on him.

BTW I have also been physically hurt by my children. It stinks and for me it takes a lot of self control not to hurt back. I grew up with a much older brother who was physically very rough with me and I was on my own to defend myself, so I'm sort of wired to react physically when I'm physically attacked. To me the most important thing is that I'm not hurting back and I'm not giving the payoff of an emotional reaction. When this happens and we are at home, the child is carried to his room and stays in there alone until the physical attacks stop. When we are on our way somewhere, the child is (was - this is pretty much over here) put into the carseat (in the garage) with the garage door up and the side doors open and left to settle himself down for a few minutes while I wait in the laundry room (4 feet away but out of sight from that angle).

Neither of my kids have verbally attacked me. I would respond the same as I do to a physical attack.


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## simplemama32 (Jul 16, 2009)

OP, I know you've been getting a lot of book recommendations, so I hate to throw yet another one at you, but







...have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I'm about halfway through and have found it very helpful in understanding DS.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Okay, took another step back and honestly, my child is really not that spirited compared to other threes I know. I *know* this. So I am going to speak with a counselor about negativity. I posted a rant about DH recently... Came out way more negative than necessary. So I think the key to my attitude is going to be looking at why I'm feeling how I am. She really is sweet, just... argh. LOL!

Oh, and things are going okay. I think what triggers me is when she says something rude and I feel it's already out there, I can't let this escape because it's just SO unacceptable, but after-the-fact stuff is punishment and ultimately ineffective because as a punishment it's not severe, and as a "calm down time" it's totally useless (even if I am calm and detached). So I feel I really am letting it go. I must somehow make her understand that you can NOT do that to people.

The thing is she understands it's bad. She also understands that I'm her mom and I have to take it because I can't hurt her back because that's wrong. I can put her in time-out, yes, but obviously that doesn't bother her that much. KWIM? It's just so frustrating.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
...

The thing is she understands it's bad. She also understands that I'm her mom and I have to take it because I can't hurt her back because that's wrong. I can put her in time-out, yes, but obviously that doesn't bother her that much. KWIM? It's just so frustrating.

I think you're onto something there. Esp with your DH away so much, it has to be hard on her. Could she be feeling (btw DH away and new baby) a little unsettled? So she knows that arguing wears you down, and she's trying to find her limit with you? Maybe it's comforting her to know that no matter how annoying she is, you're not going anywhere, but she's doing her best to "make sure." (You mentioned earlier that she's like this with people she feels "safe" with, too.) Just a thought...

Also, I think working on your feelings and reactions is a great plan! You can't change her behavior, but you sure can change how you feel/deal about/with it.

My son used to be a little like this, only instead of arguing, he wanted to hit. Someone here suggested that we designate a "hitting time" where he is allowed to hit me in play. Then when he hits at random times, I can tell him, "It's not time to hit. Please xyz." Then after he does whatever and we have a couple of minutes, or he seems to need to let a little extra energy out, I tell him, "It's hitting time!" and I'm prepared for it, and he can get it all out of his system.

Maybe something like that with arguing will work? "DD, it's time to argue! Let's argue a little and then it's time to brush teeth." And she can say "no" and you can say, "That was fun! Time to brush! No? Are we still arguing?"

I know, it's still exhausting, but if you can find something that works even a little, it just that much less exhausting!


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## greenmamapagan (Jan 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I dunno, she's not hard in some ways, but she is just sooooo argumentative. Argh. She sleeps well after I go through a sleep routine that takes an hour even though it's three simple steps: jammies, teeth, story, sleep. I mean for crying out loud.

Having emerged from the bedroom from putting my DD to bed 2.5 hours after entering it (so after pjs and teeth) I don't consider 1 hour to be worth pulling your hair out over








In answer to your original question, yes in a way. I've had times where I've let my DD know that I have no desire to fight with her about anything and will instead just wait until she is ready.


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## bonamarq (Oct 18, 2006)

I have to say I am exhausted just reading your posts! I have a similar dd who is now 6.5 and I have said before, despite my career in child development and parent education BEFORE she was born, 3.5 nearly did.me.in.
And I had a very supportive dh and no other children. So I can't even imagine the difficulties...
I would say that you seem to be developing a good plan and evolving perspective that will improve things -(as will time) I will reiterate the previous suggestions though to give her the outlet for the drama and arguing in some playful way - I KNOW how exhausting it is to incorporate those challenges in to a million little daily exchanges but perhaps 15-20 minutes daily of some focused challenging pretend play/drama - I hear you when you say you aren't playful - I'm not either and DD LOVES to have me "make 'em talk" (animals, barbies whatever) and there is nothing I hate more - I do find it easier tho if I am trying to apply some larger therapeutic goal to the task - which is where the book Playful parenting really is valuable - even if you're not the playful type...it has some good info on connecting and feeling powerful that could help you regardless of your playfulness

You may not enjoy the playful time -but it has the potential to pay off in less arguments throughout the day...You may even want to role play the very issues that she fights over (teeth) - and see if fighting over it through dolls doesn't help?

I was just thinking that my dd values the argument above all else - it's the drama and intensity above the actual item du jour that she seeks, and it's tough to be sure, even at 6.5 - but nothing like 3, so hang in there -


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"despite my career in child development and parent education BEFORE she was born"

I have to tell you, every day-care provider thinks she has the most difficult kids. I can't help but wonder if this is because child development professionals always see kids when they are at work, ready to work, and when the kids are on their best behavior (yes, even the most difficult kids are on their best behavior at day-care or school, it's amazing).

Or perhaps God gives you all the tough ones because you can manage?

My daughter NEVER argues with her teachers. Never follows them bugging.

That said, I do want to say that though she has a very type-A personality she's well within the range of normal. :sheepish: I guess it's me with a low tolerance?









I am glad to hear it gets better. I know that, I do. Even having a plan has helped immensely. I have a lot of issues when we're in public.

Quote:

Having emerged from the bedroom from putting my DD to bed 2.5 hours after entering it (so after pjs and teeth) I don't consider 1 hour to be worth pulling your hair out over
We have different abilities to remain sane and tolerate mess in the house. It's not the time spent with her, it's that I need that after-bed time so I can think, declutter, clean, prepare for the day. It seems fine to say "let things go" but in reality, when I do that out of necessity, it takes a mere 48 hours of minimal cleaning to get to squalor, real squalor, like the baby finds rotten food on the floor. I am all alone in this, don't know if you are, but 2.5 hours per kid per night is not going to happen.

Also, though it IS the time, even if it weren't, it would be the principle of the thing. The longer it takes, the more tired she is, because she doesn't need a long routine. She needs a firm routine and she wants to stay awake. She stays awake by arguing, challenging. To a certain extent that is fine! But at some point, she has to brush her teeth (really, I'm not doing rotten teeth, we don't have the money for that even though we have gov. health care it's not 100% free). Plus, what about sister?

I know my child is not the most challenging in the world. I cannot IMAGINE a 2.5 hour bedtime after so long of working so hard to get it manageable so we can have normal lives (pre-school, park, decent food, bills paid, etc.), just so that DD can win six thousand arguments before she totally conks out.

Incidentally, we did try that once. Letting her talk it out.

She went down at one a.m. and was up at seven the next morning. Haha!

Quote:

Could she be feeling (btw DH away and new baby) a little unsettled? So she knows that arguing wears you down, and she's trying to find her limit with you? Maybe it's comforting her to know that no matter how annoying she is, you're not going anywhere, but she's doing her best to "make sure." (You mentioned earlier that she's like this with people she feels "safe" with, too.) Just a thought...
Yes, you know, he's gone so much I always underestimate the effect on her.

The baby isn't new... she's 15 months. LOL! Luckily I've started earlier with her in terms of setting limits. Gentle, kind, non-punitive limits, but limits. (Okay, I do set her down if she hits, and I do pat her to sleep alone because the prospect of nursing a 1.5 year old to sleep during the first trimester again is intolerable... she's not night-weaned but we're working on it.) I am hoooooping that I will develop more confident habits with her.

:cantlook: It's not going to happen, I know, she's going to be worse than her sister. Aaaaahhhhhhh....


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swd12422* 

Maybe something like that with arguing will work? "DD, it's time to argue! Let's argue a little and then it's time to brush teeth." And she can say "no" and you can say, "That was fun! Time to brush! No? Are we still arguing?"

I know, it's still exhausting, but if you can find something that works even a little, it just that much less exhausting!

This is great!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bonamarq* 
perhaps 15-20 minutes daily of some focused challenging pretend play/drama - I hear you when you say you aren't playful - I'm not either and DD LOVES to have me "make 'em talk" (animals, barbies whatever) and there is nothing I hate more - I do find it easier tho if I am trying to apply some larger therapeutic goal to the task - which is where the book

and this. Very focused on her, letting her take the lead, maybe even just commenting on what she is doing/playing until she "invites" you to join her.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ASusan* 
This is great!!

and this. Very focused on her, letting her take the lead, maybe even just commenting on what she is doing/playing until she "invites" you to join her.

We actually do do arguing several times a day. We play "no it's mine!" in which we pretend to fight over something. We do stuff "the silly way" in which pretend to do it wrong and she corrects me and argues about it.

It's not enough for her. She corrects me for being not silly enough.

I mean, please, somebody else tell me that would be enough to make you scream?

Today we played mommy-baby kitties at naptime. I thought, she loves to imagine. We'll just...

I should have known to stop at "just" and be the strict naptime fascist I usually am (you will stay in bed, you can do it yourself or I'll make you), but as I'm always trying to be more gentle, I went for it. Sigh. I will just say it threw off our routine by an hour as she had to test everything all over again, and argue.

In "meow" language.

Yeah.

Quote:

DD LOVES to have me "make 'em talk" (animals, barbies whatever) and there is nothing I hate more - I do find it easier tho if I am trying to apply some larger therapeutic goal to the task
I do do that. She loves it. I don't find it helps with anything, though, because as soon as she hears my ideas creeping in, "Gosh, I'm tired", says dolly, she rejects the game. D'oh!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

You ask your child to do something and you wait, as if you're waiting for the bus. The key is to not get flustered and upset. You act as if they're going to do it, and you have got all the time in the world to do it.
Lynn, I just saw this.

It highlights probably the source of a lot of problems.

I am the WORST about the bus. I am so impatient. It just better not be late, is all I can say. I don't say anything about it, but I get upset and I know it's irrational, but I do. It is something about myself I want to change.

So maybe that is also something to think about. I mean, "be patient" I knew, but thinking about how much I hate myself at bus stops, might be a more vivid reminder to do that.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

There's a lot of good advice and support in this thread! I've been reading over the last couple of days and here's a few random thoughts/ideas. I have two kids who are very, ahem, spirited.

I wonder if her verbal abilities actually outstrip her emotional and self-control, and so while she seems to be in charge of herself she's actually not. Verbal 3 year olds are tricky like that.

Have you considered melatonin for bedtime? If you can all get back on track for sleep you may all have more reserves to take on the every day of living.

Another suggestion is to watch the Dog Whisperer. Really. Cesar Milan provides a great model of leadership, and leading by being first in control and aware of yourself. When my kids start to spin (whether it's arguing, crying, whatever), if I engage it all takes longer. When I lower my shoulders, centre myself and calmly deal with stuff, the whole thing moves along much more quickly. Kids (and dogs







) will follow your lead and your emotional tenor if you calmly take the lead.

Three year olds have developing prefrontal cortexes (the CEO of the brain), and while they can be bossy, demanding and fiercely independent, they're not always rational or in any way reasoned. I tend to believe that sometimes my kids need me to lend them my prefrontal cortex, and visualizing it this way helps me get into that calm, leadership role. How that looks is much like what a PP described in being calm and matter of fact. At first, it doesn't work in all situations - you are changing your whole dynamic with your child. The parent is practicing the role, and the child is practicing accepting the change in balance. Over time it shifts.

The other thing that really helped both of my kids at that age was a whole lot of empathy-while-carrying-on. So, "I can see that this bothers you, it must be very frustrating. Let's get your shoes on and go to the park." -- This did not work initially, but it was one of the building blocks of helping an independent, irrational, oppositional little person find a way to be ok with cooperating. DD in particular had to have a certain amount of battles of wills to meet whatever emotional need it met. Did I just type "had" - sorry "has" is more correct, as 11 makes 3 look like a piece of cake







. In fact, DD describes it as having waves of strong emotions crashing over her, which makes me more patient with her and reminds me of when she was 3.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
...

I mean, please, somebody else tell me that would be enough to make you scream?

...

Oh, yeah. And run screaming from the room. Believe me, I am NOT a playful person and can deal with far less than you are currently managing. I was hoping that the one little piece of advice someone had given me would help at lest a little, but in no way should you think that I've been reading this thread and denying we have anything in common!


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I should be more playful but the problem is I am not naturally playful at all. Like at. all. People would describe me as "intense" or "strong" or "serious". I get "serious" a lot. I'm sad to be the wrong mom for my child but I will try to be more playful.

It's okay not to be playful! I'm also very serious & intense, and I don't understand the Playful Parenting concept. Well, I understand it, I suppose, but it won't work for my personality without me being fake all the time.

I have walked away from many issues with DS. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. The constant, though, is that I don't feel stressed as much, which I think helps overall.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kayabrink* 
...Just not bothering didn't work for us, because he would go out of his way to create new and innovative ways of beginning new battles. Never major ones, either, always about minor things but just one thing after the other continuously.

EdnaMarie, Based solely on what you have said about your DD in this thread it seems to me this tactic which you proposed in your OP would not work.

In fact your DD sounds SOOOOOO much like my niece. She loves to argue. DH and DS both love to argue too. I don't love to argue though I enjoy logic and reason and debate. I try not to argue, and when it COUNTS, I NEVER give in. This is hard, because sometimes you think "I told her it was bedtime, I now MUST stick to my guns" but in fact sometimes you need to admit you are being unreasonable and if you REALLY looked at it from an outsider's perspective you might think....hmmmmmmmmmmm, is this really _that_ big a deal? or am I turning this into a bigger issue than it needs to be.

Does DD HAVE to wear shoes? Does she HAVE to eat dinner? Does she HAVE to have a nap (BTW, DS gave up naps at age 18 mos. Cold turkey, but more on that later)? Is it really a battle worth picking?

The best thing to do is to ask yourself..."What is MY need? What is HER need? What course of action could meet both our needs right now?" and then go with that, no matter what you may have previously "laid down" as the gauntlet. Stop. Rethink. Take a new approach. To use a military analogy, retreat, regroup and develop a new strategy to approach your civilian hosts (Note that DD is not the enemy in this analogy but rather the target civilians the soldiers would be there to protect, KWIM?)

When it is time for bed, and DS does not want to go to bed, I say "Well Benjamin it is time for bed, you do not have to sleep, but you have to be in your room and I am going to mine. I will see you in the morning. If you have a bad dream or you need me, let me know, but I'm going to my room. Goodnight." I turn off the TV and the house lights, and I go to bed. Everytime without fail he calls me for a story.

Ocassionally, especially if we have had a particularly combative day, I let him know how annoyed he has made me and I tell him that it is too late and I am not in the mood. Tomorrow he can make better choices and then I _will_ be in the mood to read stories, but tonight I am too worn down and cranky so he will have to lay in bed alone or tell himself stories...goodnight. I love you!

And I go to my room.

He is usually very sad about his poor choices and I let him know that it is okay to cry and be sad, but we can't take back the things we did, we can only choose better choices tomorrow.

I started doing this when he was about 2.5. He started really getting the idea of choices and the consequences of those choices around the age of 4. Now I just sternly say: Choices! And he stops and thinks.

I'm just saying it gets better. It does.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Weird that there are moms of 5yos here. My child tends to exhibit "shadow" milestones a year or two before she actually reaches them. Perhaps this is that? (E.g. exhibited early letter / sound recognition then dropped it for a year and is now learning them more at a normal time, used perfect grammar early then stopped with proper tenses, did the whole "why" thing, dropped it for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and then started full-force right on target.) Though I don't find that encouraging, because that means I'm in for it even worse later. Ugh.

Not necessarily. With consistency and patience and persistence DS has slowly gotten better and better. It is still a challenge between he and his dad who takes every question as a sign of disrespect and challenging him, but he has grown to really be able to communicate his wants and needs so much more articulately. It really is a DELIGHT to see when they start to reach the other shore...I am guessing we'll be fully ashore just in time for puberty.








Quote:

I should be more playful but the problem is I am not naturally playful at all. Like at. all. People would describe me as "intense" or "strong" or "serious". I get "serious" a lot. I'm sad to be the wrong mom for my child but I will try to be more playful. Being playful takes 1000% of my energy, though, so though I will check it out, I don't foresee it being an answer to my problems. Sorry. I envy playful people. Maybe therapy could change me? However two counselors I have seen both told me my goal to be less serious, more playful and to have more of a sense of humor told me they'd never changed anyone's temperament before.








Baby steps. The best thing for me was to step back and realize how LITTLE time I have to enjoy them before they start not needing me anymore. DS is five now and he already wipes my kisses away and tells me my kisses don't work their magic on his cuts and sores anymore. It's just SO fast. Enjoy it while it lasts because soon they will be off and away and you'll wonder how it all went by so fast with very few memories of the good times to hold onto. If you see it as a challenge to YOURSELF, a puzzle to logic out, maybe that will help you.

Quote:

Last night she went to bed at midnight. No brushed teeth, nothing. This morning, didn't eat breakfast. The only thing I require is that I'm not giving into demands. She MUST treat me like a human.

Of course, she can always go hungry.

Sigh.
Of course, on the otherhand she is also a human being and she has a hard wired instinct to survive, so she won't go hungry, will she? Sometimes we think they need to eat, but they obviously don't...so let it go. Just leave it open and available for when they are hungry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I dunno, she's not hard in some ways, but she is just sooooo argumentative. Argh. She sleeps well after I go through a sleep routine that takes an hour even though it's three simple steps: jammies, teeth, story, sleep. I mean for crying out loud.

I should mention that she went to bed late and didn't eat because I did not argue about it. It's like she thrives on arguments. If I argue with her for about 10 minutes, she does it just fine. Wheee. Because that's how I want to spend my life. She actually demands that I "do it the wrong way" so she can correct me. I mean WTH is that about?!? I have to do it two or three times before she can show me the right way. Otherwise--freak out. I mean, there is a fake argument while we do it but it's not a genuine tantrum.

Is she the only child who does that? Is that bizarre or what? Is that normal for three? Will it end or am I encouraging her by giving in? But if I don't have the fake argument, she starts a REAL argument, so anyway she gets her way. (!!!!) So how can I avoid an argument with someone who wants one?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Mom2grrrls, until this week, when I totally gave up, it was "perfect" if I struggled: in bed by 7:15-30, stories until 7:45-8:00, asleep by 8:30. One nap between 12:30 and 3:00 not to exceed one hour.

A few things in these quotes:

1) My DS dropped his nap at about 18 months, much to the chagrin of his daycare providers. So we started putting him to bed at 6pm and lo and behold he would STILL sleep until 8am. EIGHT am. Then during our summer vacation when he was two we let him stay up later, we noticed that bedtime routines went from being on average 1 hour to on average TWO hours or MORE, and it was long and drawn out and moremoremore, not fair moremoremore....:explode So we moved bedtime back to 6pm. Dinner at four thirty, bath at 5pm, jammies, teeth, stories songs asleep by 6pm. Then DH and I had actual grown up time...HALLELUJIAH! It was totally life changing for us. Not always possible, because life interrupts our daily schedules, doesn't it. But when all was perfect and the stars aligned just so, it was PURE bliss.

2) one hour on bedtime is about right at this age. They need you. I know you are drained, but it IS normal. And no she is NOT the only one who does that. DS did that, and yes it is SO annoying especially when you have work to do, or ya know, an actual life to live. I discovered though that he was modelling his dad who CONSTANTLY corrected him. CONSTANTLY. He almost never let him just do things HIS way. There was ONE way to do the task, the right way. And DS was sort of role playing with me. I made the connection about a year too late and had a serious talk with DH who still does it from time to time but I have also given DS the way to politely ask his dad to back off (though he does forget and it can spiral into a HUGE blow out.) "Daddy, can I try to do it on my own please?"

DS also asks you to tell him a story and then pitches a fit if you don't follow the storyline he has IN HIS HEAD.







I can't read your mind, dude! So now we do a sort of Choose your own adventure story with him stopping at every turn for him to make a decision in the plot. It definitely helps.

Also if she IS a true extrovert she literally does thrive on the heated energetic passionate communication with others. I swear dh and ds both could replace food and sleep with parties and debate clubs and thrive for longer than is natural.

3)You will not need to spend your life doing this. You don't even need to do it now. You _can_ say to a 3 yo when she requests that you argue. "mmm Nah, Mommy doesn't like to argue. Go argue with your teddy bears while I get your sister to sleep, and then mommy can do something fun with you, whatever you want, okay?" Or suggest she call her daddy or Grandma or an aunt or uncle once a day to argue with them about something if they like to argue, too. They can pick topics the day before and you, being the "serious one", can help her research the topic, like which is the deadliest animal in the world, or why is the sky blue...whatever interests her.

This is an EXHAUSTING age...and did I read it right, are you also recently pregnant with Number 3?!?!!!! Good lord, if that's true...you are a super star for not just dropping your kid off at the door of the daycare and not coming back until bedtime. You must be exhaustion on legs.

Quote:

But I am so tired of the struggle. (Oh, she didn't want to do the dishes with me.) Maybe it's too much sleep for her, too much nutrition. Maybe she just needs to sleep less and eat less? Honestly, I don't know. I'm so through. Tonight I did ask if she planned to go to the dentist with me, since she wasn't brushing. She said yes, and I told her how upset the dentist would be, but that was her choice, I didn't mind. She brushed her teeth herself. She didn't want to go to bed herself but I had her do it.

She seems more relaxed. I guess the whole routine is too much stress for her. It makes me sad to think I can't provide for her basic needs and safety without screaming or going insane, though.
Oh my god. No wonder you are tired.







It's not easy to fulfill a kids needs especially when they are in such total opposition to your own needs. You are a really good mama for even bothering to stop and get some perspective and ASK and TALK it out and SEEK help...so many moms just give up and resort to violence. It's tiring but you're almost to the otherside of toddlerhood...so close!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Have you read "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf? He's got a technique in there that I think he describes as "waiting for the bus". It's a bit like what you're doing, only with slightly different expectations. You ask your child to do something and you wait, as if you're waiting for the bus. The key is to not get flustered and upset. You act as if they're going to do it, and you have got all the time in the world to do it.

And I have to say, you sound very burnt out. It's hard to parent when you're at the end of the rope. How can you do some good self care so that you have more energy? Have you been taking care of yourself?

You may or may not continue doing the 'waiting for the bus' routine once you've got more energy. But it would be nice to have it be a decision that you've made based on what works, rather than a wholesale abdication out of pure exhaustion.

I have never read this, but you said you HATE waiting for the bus, EM, right? I hate waiting, too. I become the biggest baby in the world when I have to wait. I learned when I was about 25 to take a book with me EVERYWHERE. Whenever someone kept me waiting I would pull it out and read a few pages. I do a similar thing with ds (and dh who is really f-ing slow in getting ready for anything). I say "Okay when you're ready let me know. I'm gonna go read my book." and I go sit down and read my book. The first time (when he was about 3 ish) I got to read about five pages, the last time I had to do this I didn't even get to find the place where I had left off.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
A) *We already did that for a year.* Carrying certain things out when my child doesn't want to do them would literally require this. And I'm effing TIRED of physically forcing her EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's been a darn year. A year. Of forcing most of the time. I mean, we're talking holding her down around 10 times a day, just because I refuse to argue. I started when she was two because I, too, thought it had to sink in. Right? Right? Eventually, they will stop fighting... right?

(Okay, not ten times a day. Teeth brushing = 2, naptime = 1, bedtime = 1, my chore for carseat = 2 (in and out of), for a total of six times, about five days a week. And of course not all of those were "holding down"--some were carrying out, etc.)

But she didn't. So I tried more emotional manipulation. Rewards. Punishments. Anything.

*If not after a year of consistent bedtimes, mealtimes, pre-school times, free time in the afternoon, shopping rules, then when?*
Maybe this is coming up now because she's grown a little bit, and she's now simply too big for me to force anymore. B) *I can't force her to stay in bed, as she shares a room with her baby sister.* So the whole screaming while being forcibly held down is (a) not how I want her to learn to sleep, (b) cruel if it is not to any purpose at all, i.e. does not have the required result and (c) totally impractical because baby will wake up and then I'll have two screaming kids.

I appreciate the no-nonsense approach, I really, really do. It was my approach for health and safety issues for a freaking YEAR. But I just can't any more. It's not working (she has not learned to comply), I can't do it physically, and it makes me feel guilty because sometimes it causes her to drop to the floor or get scratched (you know, not like a deep scratch, just a white mark) by the carseat straps, or whatever.









C) *There is absolutely no way I'm keeping her home from school. She has been begging to go to school for over a year (so, since before she turned 2.5), she has never wanted to stay home from school, not a single day, and she begs on a daily basis to go play with her friends. She loves it. I'm going to be honest that I have read chapters of HOtYK and I don't really agree with the underlying philosophy of it, though obviously some parts are useful.

Plus when we were home all the time, for two months before I could enroll her in stuff after our move, it didn't help one bit.*

Yeah. She loves being the center of attention and doing her favorite things. GEnerally she's quite well behaved those times.

Sadly, I am married and have an infant as well.







That prevents me from doing it her way 24/7 or even 1/7, really, because baby's always there.

Oh, and sometimes I just indulge her and argue with her. It really is her favorite thing, LOL. She will try to get her baby sister to do it. "Hey, take this toy. Then I'll say, 'No, it's mine'..."

Wondermomma, you are absolutely right and have her personality pegged to a "T".







It does help somewhat... except I wonder if I can be that mom for her, and still have any soul left over.

I do use those tactics. I get sick of doing them (quite literally) three or four times an hour, for everything. EVERYTHING must be timed or gamed or manipulated (reverse psychology). Peeing. Buckling up. Unbuckling. Getting into bed. I admit that there are times when I (melancholic-phlegmatic / XNTP... sigh) just can't do it. How many peas can you eat? How many bites can you turn that sandwich into? Can you be quiet this whole song? I just don't think that way, so it takes 1000% of my mental energy to come up with a challenge every time. D) *The more I do it, the more she wants it.*

And then we have poop on the floor (baby, not her, thank God) and I'm ready to lose it.

And that's not sustainable for me as a human. I don't mind her arguing in theory, but I can't be that person for her. E) *I feel like I'm being bullied.







My husband has the exact same personality, so between the two of them sometimes I just want to scream.*

I will try to think of a way I can be that person, to be that mom. F) *As I said I've looked for counselors who will help me become more playful, more competitive, more cheerful. 24/7. Do you think cognitive behavior therapy could help?*

A)It takes about four years. Between the age of 1.5 and 5.5 and then it needs constant upkeep from what I can tell and maintanence and effort and hrad work. CONSTANT. No one ever said having nice well behaved respectful wonderful children was going to be easy. I don't know anyone that has grown up kids they LIKE who thought it was easy to be a parent. Most of the books and experts agree it takes about four years. For some it will take longer than others.

B) maybe it is time to consider having DD2 sleep in your room. at least while DH is away?

C)I am confused by this...if she loves school so much why does she fight having to ride in a car seat? Has she not made the connection that school cannot happen without the car seat? Have you let her see the consequences of not letting you strp her in peacefully? Or perhaps another tactic, is it really too far to walk? Is there a closer pre-school? Do they have a bus pick up service you could use? Is her only need to start a fight with you or could there be something else? have you ever asked her after she was calm and you were calm, like over a sandwich in the kicthen why she fights it so much? I did this when DS suddenly was fighting his car seat and I found out that the material was irritating his skin on his arms, not enough to leave a rash but enough to annoy him, but he couldn't find the words to tell me that in the moment of me trying to strap him in...he was too worked up and flustered and his words would just GO. In a calm and happy moment he was able to find the words to tell me.

You have to remember that even the most fluent toddler is still only just a beginner level language student, so when the emotional filter is on a high setting with anger, excitement, or sadness etc the words disappear! Have you ever tried to speak a newish foreign language when you are flustered, like the Taxi took you to the wrong place or the waiter is trying to over charge you...instinctually even a adult will have a temper tantrum, and niceities like please and thank you...forget it. You're lucky if you get a coherent verb noun grouping. She's THREE. Melt downs and resistance happen for a reason.

D) that's the thing about kids. They want what they have ben been taught they deserve. So if she wants more and more and more it is not because she's not grateful, it's because she believes you when you tell her she's amazing and wonderful and great. It's kind of comforting to me to think of it this way and know that I haven't raised a kid who thinks he doesn't deserve more play. The way I handle this is to simply say "no more. I wish I could, I really really do, but mommy is all worn out tonight. I'll have more energy tomorrow and we can play again. I love you." and that's it. No. Lovingly and gently, I wish I COULD, but I cannot. He still begs me for more at 5+. It's totally normal.

E) Yeah, you are being bullied. And you are tired. And you deserve a break. The natural consequences of her picking fights all day with you would be that you do not want to be with her...but she needs to understand WHY. It might take her another two years to grasp it fully, but just keep reminding her "Mommy does not like to argue. Tomorrow if you make better choices and choose not to argue over every little thing, we can have a fun bed time together, but not tonight. Goodnight." And if she screams take DD2 to bed with you.

F) I do not think you need to change who you are to accomodate her. You seem a lot like me, wanting to solve the problem and apply logic and reasoning to a situation. Try approaching the problem in a puzzle format. What action can most readily meet her needs and mine? Maybe more puzzles on the computer could work to calm her down and drain all that energy. If she is extroverted, as I suspect she is, watching a video and playing a game on the computer might really help her to direct all that built up energy of her day amongst so many people into something educational and challenging. Screen time is not terrible if it helps to meet BOTH your needs. Don't dismiss it because you feel like a bad mom letting the computer entertain your kid. You shoudn't have to serve as friend, counselor, nurse, personal chef, teacher, walking encyclopedia, AND clown parade to your kids. Three out of seven on any given day is perfectly respectable.









Think effciency and logic. What actions will meet BOTH your needs most easily. Forget about what others think. What will make YOUR life easier and still leave you feeling good about meeting your child's needs. You don't need to change YOU at your core and suddenly be a playful happy go lucky extroverted mom...even if you could, how happy could you possibily be pretending you are something you're not...that will lead to burn out and snappishness faster than anything I can think of. As you said, it's not sustainable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Heartmama- Thanks so much.

I'm not alone. I have friends and I meet other friends at the park daily. I have nice neighbors. Baby doesn't care to be left at the babysitter but I do have one I can count on.

I have asked the teachers in a general way, as I always do, how she's doing, and they usually say she's great. She has always behaved for other people, but not for family. It's not only me: it's my mom, my husband, and anyone she feels comfortable with, like "aunties" or "uncles". Though, I should say, she certainly has good and bad days and frankly when I see her around other kids, she appears normal. She is fine interacting in a group. She is also fine when in a kid-targeted environment. I'm sorry to say that will not be my home until I'm divorced. It just won't be. No counseling, nothing will ever make it like that.









Are you getting a divorce? Wow. That can be awfully traumatic for a child. Perhaps she is testing you so much to make sure you aren't going to leave her. Fairly typical for kids dealing with separation anxiety. Otherwise...can you explain why a house with a 3 yo and 1.5 yo is not a kid-targeted environment or at the very least does not contain a kid-targeted SPACE? That seems rather hostile for a child to always have to exist in the world of untouchable grown up stuff. If it's their home, shouldn't they have a space to call theirs? Or am I misunderstanding completely?

Quote:

The problem is when it's just me, because I am only one person and I can't absorb all her energy, you know? She wants to play/fight/challenge 100% of the time.

That is fine when she's at the park with other kids her age; at pre-school with planned tasks; with me and I do not have to focus half my energy on something else (sister, food, etc.).

It's NOT fine during dinner, trying to get out of the house, talk to dad on the phone, etc. Because there is her sister whom I can't let fall down the stairs, and it makes every task into this absolutely abusrd battle.
Are you an introvert? I mean do you get your energy by being alone and quiet with your thoughts? Do you feel drained after too much time around other people? It sounds like your DD is the opposite, getting her energy from being with OTHERS. Hence why she comes home from school fully charged and ready to PLAY, while you having been with DD2 all day are ready for quiet and space. (and maybe she has figured out that making you mad at least makes you come alive and GIVE her something even if it's not what she really wants you to give) You need a break lady!







When is your partner coming home? Can you find a way to maybe share a home with another mom or a sister, or your mom or SOMETHING?! Because you need a break. I need a break now and then, too. I am introverted to my core and DS and DH are both extreme extroverts, and the only thing that saves my sanity is BoowaKwala.com and a very early bed time. We have even had dinner as early as four pm when I was not in the mood to deal.

Quote:

I recognize that it's more of a mismatch than a problem of hers, per se. I really do think if she had a mom that could be playful all the time or laugh it off, she would do better. Or if she were the second or third child and could argue with brothers and sisters. It's this her-with-me that turns into her-against-me because I'm not able to plan other things for her to butt her head up against, that is the problem.

And I appreciate you ladies helping me work that out!

I think I am going to develop a plan like the following:

-Make it a game from the beginning (maybe a notecard with five or six "game" frameworks on it so I don't have to think every time?).
-Invite her to make it a game. Maybe she is just so used to arguing with me that she tries that, but if I keep asking her to do it, she will?
-If she doesn't comply or want to play, remember my 3-2-1-or-I-make-you and make sure I always have an "out" (like defensive driving, I need defensive parenting... make sure I always have a way to physically get to both of them even if this means... sigh... a 10% addition to our shopping budget as there are no stores in town with restrains that hold my kids. ).
-Last case scenario, totally emotion-free time-out in her room (I called to get locks on the rooms... I know it sounds harsh, but believe me, if I have to stand there it will NOT help her calm down, plus I cannot maintain emotion-free with the baby and my husband on the phone etc.).
Whatever works. Do not give yourself a hard time. BUT...why the "I make you." I am not sure what you mean by this. I do not see myself being able to force my kids to do something. I cannot make ds brush his teeth, but I can put him in a safe headlock position so that I can do it for him (a light up tooth brush and a singing toothbrush have REALLY helped with this particular chore, FWIW) I never make him wear shoes. He got a finishing nail in the bottom of his foot once because he refused to wear shoes while running in the neighbor's driveway, and when that lesson wore off and he went shoeless again for a few weeks he stepped on a line of passing fire ants. Tough and painful lessons, but guess what? He wears shoes now. (I also got him pair of Crocs knock offs which are super comfy and slip on and off...so no ties or hassle or struggle, makes my life so much easier)

I guess my thinking is, apart from health and safety stuff like car seats and teeth brushing...let the rest go. Give yourself a break. I assure you there are no mother of the year awards, and you won't get any real thanks for enforcing what seem to them to be arbitrary rules until they have their own kids. That's a long time to wait when you can let natural consequences take their toll. Like DS refused to bathe for two weeks. He let me sponge him off, but no bath and forget hair washing. He was pretty grody. The kids at school called him stinky. Now he bathes every other day without any hassle. He used to boss his friends around while playing with them. They stopped coming over. Now he sometimes lets them have turns making up the rules...of course sometimes he prefers to just play alone and that's okay, too.

Just try not to sweat the small stuff and give yourself a break. You're all alone! You deserve a break.

Quote:

For "mouth", I need a plan. I'm sorry but ignoring doesn't work, and at the same time "mouth" happens when I really don't have a lot of options to isolate her. I don't want to feed the fire. Car, for example. RIght now I turn up the music really loud. I hate rewards charts because long-term incentives don't work and then once the incentive's gone (we have tried this) what are you left with?
What do you mean by mouth?

Quote:

That is what I do when I'm Good Me, but often I haven't slept, DH is bugging me (phone), or whatever. And then I go straight to, "Oh yes you will" and there we go. Or I slip up and ask her politely, as if she cares, LOL!
Why do you consider it slipping up to ask her politely. Upthread somewhere you interrupted a playful moment in a dialogue to remind her to speak politely to you, so why shouldn't you speak politely to her? Might help cement it in her mind the next time (okay more likely in three years) she is looking for the nice way to get you to play with her.

Quote:

And no, no breaks, but even when he wasn't military, I didn't get breaks. I don't know any moms in real life that get breaks, to be honest. Unless you count working a break! Except one who has a maid, but she is like, wayyy out of my league, income wise.

Okay, this is my last post for 24 hours... really. I have my plan and I'll implement it. I will let you know if I come up with magic for someone verbally abusing me. Sigh.








That is really sad. I get breaks. I demand them. I tell DS "I need a break. Please go play outside." "Can I have some quiet time please?" I tell DH "You need to take them away for a few hours, NOW! Before I bite the baby...NOW! Not tomorrow, not after the card game, not after you make this one call...NOW!"

You are a human being. You are overwhelmed. You _need_ a break. In order to function...before you wind up in a facility for a nervous breakdown with your kids being taken care of by grandma.

There is no magic cure, but you can say to a three year old "I will not be spoken to that way." give them the appropriate words for telling the emotion/want/need to you and then shut down and ignore/remove yourself and the baby from her presence until she uses it. Works with grown ups too. I wish I had the wherewithal to remember that when my MIL was visiting last week, but nevermind.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Lynn, I just saw this.

It highlights probably the source of a lot of problems.

I am the WORST about the bus. I am so impatient. It just better not be late, is all I can say. I don't say anything about it, but I get upset and I know it's irrational, but I do. It is something about myself I want to change.

So maybe that is also something to think about. I mean, "be patient" I knew, but thinking about how much I hate myself at bus stops, might be a more vivid reminder to do that.


Have you tried meditation? It really helps with this type of thing. The deal is, you've got to practice it regularly for it to work. Then when she sets you off, you can do some quick meditating.

Reality is that you'll have the most success changing your reaction, rather than trying to change her behavior.

When our kids were preschoolers, we needed to stay in the room with them while they fell asleep. At first, it drove me batty. I kept thinking of all the things that I should be doing, all the time that I was 'wasting' waiting for them to fall asleep.

At some point in time, I started bringing a book in. It then shifted from "I can't believe I'm still lying on the floor waiting for these kids to fall asleep" to a time where I could get a little reading done and relax. Nothing about the situation changed except my attitude. I'll confess to being glad that we don't have to do that any more, but once I changed how I viewed it, it wasn't _that_ bad.

It sounds to me like her comments set you off. As a fairly argumentative person, I have to say that simply not engaging the argument is probably a good idea. Just remember that it takes two to argue. It's pretty boring to argue by yourself!

When my kids get like this, it also helps me to keep repeating the directive over and over again (as calmly as I can). If, despite all their arguments, they keep hearing "it's pajama time" eventually they stop giving the arguments.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
When my kids get like this, it also helps me to keep repeating the directive over and over again (as calmly as I can). If, despite all their arguments, they keep hearing "it's pajama time" eventually they stop giving the arguments.

I do this to DS (and my students actually). Drives him nuts.

It's time to brush teeth.

But this is my favorite show.

It's time to brush teeth.

But I didn't have supper.

What a shame, It's time to brush teeth.

But I was going to read this book.

Hmmmm too bad. It's time to brush teeth.

But it's not fair.

Sorry you feel that way. It's time to brush teeth.

ad nauseum.

Sometimes I have to stop from laughing in his face at some of the truly absurd excuses that come out of his mouth.

Dude, brushy the teethy!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
I do this to DS (and my students actually). Drives him nuts.

It's time to brush teeth.

But this is my favorite show.

It's time to brush teeth.

But I didn't have supper.

What a shame, It's time to brush teeth.

But I was going to read this book.

Hmmmm too bad. It's time to brush teeth.

But it's not fair.

Sorry you feel that way. It's time to brush teeth.

ad nauseum.

Sometimes I have to stop from laughing in his face at some of the truly absurd excuses that come out of his mouth.

Dude, brushy the teethy!

My record for the broken-record approach is about 20 minutes, I suppose. SHe repeats the same excuse over and over and laughs. Then she screams, "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME! I'M SERIOUS!"

Quote:

I try not to argue, and when it COUNTS, I NEVER give in.
It always counts for us, so I never give in. Ever. I can't tell you how hard it is to deny your child something like a doll just because they didn't ask nicely.







Because that will mean the next gazillion times (for years, she's like an elephant): "But that one time you..."

I should also say... I stopped reasoning with her about ten months ago, because I realized I was feeding a fire. I tried repetition, distraction, games, challenges, time-ins, time-outs, rewards, lost privileges, whatever.

It's easy to say "don't engage" but... if it's a health and safety issue and they HAVE to do it, there WILL be resistance. And that's my struggle. My difficult struggle. How to get her to brush teeth, stay in bed, whatever, if I can't argue, reward, punish, touch, coerce, incentivize, play, anything.

It doesn't take two to argue. SHe has the winning paradox:

"Argue with me."

Which is the right answer: Silence ("You're not listening!!! Mommy!"), Yes (Okay, you say...), or No (Yes!)?

Right now we're at silence.

However, ignoring my child for an hour or two a day was not my idea of gentle, loving discipline.

Quote:

Of course, on the otherhand she is also a human being and she has a hard wired instinct to survive, so she won't go hungry, will she? Sometimes we think they need to eat, but they obviously don't...so let it go. Just leave it open and available for when they are hungry.
Yeah, that's what I'm asking, can I just let her go and forget about it, screw her health? Six hours of sleep all week, no square meals? Tough luck.

Quote:

"mmm Nah, Mommy doesn't like to argue. Go argue with your teddy bears while I get your sister to sleep, and then mommy can do something fun with you, whatever you want, okay?"
Her answer: "NO-kay, haha!"

If that worked, I would have stopped posting here two years ago.

I mean, seriously? Just tell her my feelings and expectations in a quiet, loving way with an alternative for her?

Hahahahahahahahahah.... sob.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

.before you wind up in a facility for a nervous breakdown with your kids being taken care of by grandma.
I dream of this, not because I'd get to rest, but because I'd get revenge on her for all the crappy parenting advice she gave me. "Just listen to her..." "She needs another hug..." Another reward for yelling? Okay. Really? Maybe. She is so little, after all...

Which all resulted in her thinking that she ran the place. I still worry that if we hadn't lived with my mom for a short time a year ago, during which I was constantly told I was too harsh, and my mom made a show of always giving in because it wasn't "the big stuff... don't sweat the small stuff..." she wouldn't be this way.

I'd LOVE my mom to have to deal with this attitude now. Hah.

Not gonna happen, though. I wouldn't let her ruin them with her overt love and passive aggression. They'd be with my sister. We have a will, LOL.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Okay, just know you are NOT alone. Most of us with 5 year olds here giving advice are talking from the exact experience you are dealing with now. EXACTLY the same struggles and battles.

The tactics we offer up were practiced consistently and steadily as possible for YEARS, not once and magically POOF...YEARS of patience and meditation and grey-hair inducing fits of wanting to tear our hair out. And we STILL are fighting our way through with larger and larger patches of sunny in between the tempests.

We came from where you are now to where we are now, our children being no easier than yours, I assure you, and it really _does_ take that long, and it really IS worth it. Keep the faith...but for your own sanity get someone to help you! You're only human.

It breaks my heart to read you say that EVERYTHING counts. That just can not be true. It can't be good for your state of mind to think like that. That is just WAY too much pressure for any one person to bear and is totally impossible to maintain! You must be ready to crack up!

It takes YEARS to instill values in a child. Rinse repeat ad nauseum. There's a reason why children don't start school until 5 or 6 and in many (IMO more) civilized countries as late as 7 or 8 and why they are not considered grown ups until 18, and in many places as old as 21. It takes THAT long for them to learn it...and often they then have to go out for the next ten years and totally mess up everything and re-learn it through their own experience. No one gets it right in an afternoon, or a week, or a YEAR, or even a decade. No one.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh, and I'll just spam my own thread, why not.

I know I sound tired and at the end of my rope. I am. Baby is still not sleeping through the night. DH is in training and not calling because DD doesn't want to talk to him.







I know it's hard for her.

And it goes back and forth. We do have good days in which all the normal GD stuff works. But when she gets on that track... that defiance... then nothing works.

And it is SO hard for me to turn everything off and think, okay, she wins this one. I mean, I know she loses in the long-run and that it's not zero-sum but if I leave her alone she thinks she wins. No matter what, she gets her feedback, her positive feedback, that it was worth it. So do it again. She's unconsciously setting it up. I know she's not plotting, but I also know that she is incredibly emotionally attuned and her brain is always looking for ways to "win".

I think I will sign her up for all-day preschool for the school year if I can. We can't afford it but at least she can enjoy herself all day without feeling the overwhelming compulsion to challenge me because I'm not able to play a game with her while I'm broiling chicken. Maybe I will also get her tested for a behavioral disorder and get myself meds. (Meditation sounds nice... I really will try more often.)

Obviously when I'm getting suggestions that sound ridiculous to me it is not because they are ridiculous, it's because there is something wrong with ME or HER and I need to get out of denial and just admit it.







All your suggestions are supposed to work and if they don't, something has to change.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
Okay, just know you are NOT alone. Most of us with 5 year olds here giving advice are talking from the exact experience you are dealing with now. EXACTLY the same struggles and battles.

The tactics we offer up were practiced consistently and steadily as possible for YEARS, not once and magically POOF...YEARS of patience and meditation and grey-hair inducing fits of wanting to tear our hair out. And we STILL are fighting our way through with larger and larger patches of sunny in between the tempests.

We came from where you are now to where we are now, our children being no easier than yours, I assure you, and it really _does_ take that long, and it really IS worth it. Keep the faith...but for your own sanity get someone to help you! You're only human.

It breaks my heart to read you say that EVERYTHING counts. That just can not be true. It can't be good for your state of mind to think like that. That is just WAY too much pressure for any one person to bear and is totally impossible to maintain! You must be ready to crack up!

It takes YEARS to instill values in a child. Rinse repeat ad nauseum. There's a reason why children don't start school until 5 or 6 and in many (IMO more) civilized countries as late as 7 or 8 and why they are not considered grown ups until 18, and in many places as old as 21. It takes THAT long for them to learn it...and often they then have to go out for the next ten years and totally mess up everything and re-learn it through their own experience. No one gets it right in an afternoon, or a week, or a YEAR, or even a decade. No one.

It does count. You don't know her. She remembers. SHe brings things up from months, even YEARS ago. "Remember that one time when we went to the zoo and you said I could have popcorn?" That was 15 months ago. FIFTEEN MONTHS. One popcorn decision and I'll suffer for years until I feel comfortable with popcorn with a baby.

And... I'm sorry, but is there a kid missing in your signature? I see two kids, one six and one around 6 mo?

Was there ever a time you had a newborn babe and a toddler at one time?

Quote:

No one gets it right in an afternoon, or a week, or a YEAR, or even a decade. No one
I don't have a decade to get her to bed. I don't have a year to get her to get in the carseat and put on her harness, or at least let me do it. I don't have a week to get her to obey the command, "Put her down!" (regarding toddler sister).

I have to be successful at these things or it's considered neglect.

And htat's why she challenges them. Amazingly, "Please and thank you" are easier. Why? Because it's not a big deal.

But if I let seat-buckles and sleep and food not be a big deal, it's neglect.









I lose. I try, she challenges. I don't try, she pushes the limit to the limit to the limit and she's not healthy or safe. No matter what, I lose.

She might grow out of it. She might not. Her dad never did!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
It does count. You don't know her. She remembers. SHe brings things up from months, even YEARS ago. "Remember that one time when we went to the zoo and you said I could have popcorn?" That was 15 months ago. FIFTEEN MONTHS. One popcorn decision and I'll suffer for years until I feel comfortable with popcorn with a baby.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's not unique to your child. not by any means.







I have yet to meet a child of average or greater intelligence who doesn't do that to their parents. It's infuriating, but totally normal. My son brings up things from THREE YEARS AGO! It's exasperating.

Quote:

And... I'm sorry, but is there a kid missing in your signature? I see two kids, one six and one around 6 mo?

Was there ever a time you had a newborn babe and a toddler at one time?








It must be very overwhelming. I absolutely cannot imagine the stress. It must be heart wrenching to feel torn between the two like that.
My eldest is 5 (last march) and my other is just just six months. I have no idea what it is like to have two so close together. I can see how it must change everything for you, and fill you up with dread and frustration. I am sorry you are facing this alone. It's not f-ing fair!

Quote:

I don't have a decade to get her to bed. I don't have a year to get her to get in the carseat and put on her harness, or at least let me do it. I don't have a week to get her to obey the command, "Put her down!" (regarding toddler sister).

I have to be successful at these things or it's considered neglect.

And htat's why she challenges them. Amazingly, "Please and thank you" are easier. Why? Because it's not a big deal.

But if I let seat-buckles and sleep and food not be a big deal, it's neglect.









I lose. I try, she challenges. I don't try, she pushes the limit to the limit to the limit and she's not healthy or safe. No matter what, I lose.

She might grow out of it. She might not. Her dad never did!
It's not neglect. You are giving yourself too hard a job. It's NOT neglect. It's PARENTING. Siblings get hurt by siblings. Children go on food strikes and sleep strikes. s long as you are monitoring and taking her to the doctors when you feel it is time, and you are using your momma instincts to protect your girls it is NOT neglect! You have to lighten up on yourself. Give yourself more credit. You are doing an amazing job. It sounds to me like all the other adults in your DD's life think you're doing an awesome job! Why are you giving yourself such a hard time and making your job so HARD?

Rest assured no matter what techniques you employ it WILL take decades to teach her. There is NO parenting technique, not even spanking and screaming, that will speed that process up by much.

Going to bed in under ten minutes? I do not know a child under six who does this regularly. Listening to the inner conscience versus the impulse? Not a child under 25 has that one down pat (but their impulses DO get better).

I know it is scary and overwhelming, but you CAN do this. and you ARE doing a great job. I wish you had more support and help close to you so you can keep doing it. It's so totally unfair that you have to face this alone.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

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When it is time for bed, and DS does not want to go to bed, I say "Well Benjamin it is time for bed, you do not have to sleep, but you have to be in your room and I am going to mine. I will see you in the morning. If you have a bad dream or you need me, let me know, but I'm going to my room. Goodnight." I turn off the TV and the house lights, and I go to bed. Everytime without fail he calls me for a story.


He... doesn't... come out of the room. ??? He doesn't start yelling loudly (to wake up sibling)? He doesn't start jumping on the bed?

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He is usually very sad about his poor choices and I let him know that it is okay to cry and be sad, but we can't take back the things we did, we can only choose better choices tomorrow.


Mine tells me I'm mean, a horrible person, and rude and disgusting, and she wants to throw me in the trash.

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1) My DS dropped his nap at about 18 months, much to the chagrin of his daycare providers. So we started putting him to bed at 6pm and lo and behold he would STILL sleep until 8am. EIGHT am.


Mine wakes and falls asleep around the same time every day. She will fall asleep at five unless I am stimulating her with intensive activities (hard as that's dinner prep time) from five to seven, if she has no nap.

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I made the connection about a year too late and had a serious talk with DH who still does it from time to time but I have also given DS the way to politely ask his dad to back off (though he does forget and it can spiral into a HUGE blow out.) "Daddy, can I try to do it on my own please?"


My husband doesn't listen. Oh, sure, sometimes, not generally... no. Meh.

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B) maybe it is time to consider having DD2 sleep in your room. at least while DH is away?


Yeah, I could transition her into my room and then re-transition her. We could just do gentle sleep training for the next two years, but i"m not really up for that.

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C)I am confused by this...if she loves school so much why does she fight having to ride in a car seat?


We walk to school.

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Has she not made the connection that school cannot happen without the car seat?


She doesn't mind the car-seat. She doesn't want to get buckled herself. She wants me to buckle her and argue about it. "Do it the wrong way." "No, not like THAT."

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If she is extroverted, as I suspect she is, watching a video and playing a game on the computer might really help her to direct all that built up energy of her day amongst so many people into something educational and challenging. Screen time is not terrible if it helps to meet BOTH your needs. Don't dismiss it because you feel like a bad mom letting the computer entertain your kid. You shoudn't have to serve as friend, counselor, nurse, personal chef, teacher, walking encyclopedia, AND clown parade to your kids. Three out of seven on any given day is perfectly respectable.








This is a good point. We should do more screen time, actually. I was raised without TV and videos and I just never see them as a real option.

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Are you getting a divorce? Wow. That can be awfully traumatic for a child. Perhaps she is testing you so much to make sure you aren't going to leave her. Fairly typical for kids dealing with separation anxiety. Otherwise...can you explain why a house with a 3 yo and 1.5 yo is not a kid-targeted environment or at the very least does not contain a kid-targeted SPACE? That seems rather hostile for a child to always have to exist in the world of untouchable grown up stuff. If it's their home, shouldn't they have a space to call theirs? Or am I misunderstanding completely?


They have a playroom. Our lifestyle, the military life, is not kid-friendly. Because when they say move, you move. I don't mean, move house. I mean, do this, do that. If you don't it counts against the soldier's career points. He can't be late, etc. He finally has his own car which should help. I was driving him everywhere for awhile.

My husband is constantly threatening divorce when he doesn't get his way. Yes, it's abusive, I know. But he's leaving for deployment soon so I can't think of re-settling now when we worked so hard to settle here.

We were thinking of number three. I'm okay with two, okay with three. I'd rather not have three as a single mom, but then, it wouldn't be the end of the world. After this I'm getting an IUD. I'm considering getting one now if I'm not already pregnant. We went on a great vacation and had a great three months or so running, so I really was beginning to think it could work.

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Can you find a way to maybe share a home with another mom or a sister, or your mom or SOMETHING?!


Ugh, no, not my mom, been there, done that, LOL! I mean, I'm thankful for the help but discipline wise, what a disaster.

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Whatever works. Do not give yourself a hard time. BUT...why the "I make you." I am not sure what you mean by this. I do not see myself being able to force my kids to do something.

I guess my thinking is, apart from health and safety stuff like car seats and teeth brushing...let the rest go. Give yourself a break.


We don't have battles over non-health and safety issues. "I make you" means "I will make you have it done to you." I suppose it's not phrased very accurately.

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I hate to burst your bubble, but that's not unique to your child. not by any means. I have yet to meet a child of average or greater intelligence who doesn't do that to their parents. It's infuriating, but totally normal. My son brings up things from THREE YEARS AGO! It's exasperating.


But you yourself said that I could make exceptions. But how can I make exceptions if she's going to bring them up against me in arguments?!?

?!?!? I know many other kids that do that but you are suggesting I can go easy.

NO exceptions, NO quarter. It's why we NEVER get ice-cream from the ice-cream truck (ruin the park experience forever), why we NEVER get treats at the grocery store (I don't feel like whining about it the whole darn time I go shopping for the next six years, thanks), why we NEVER get up more than one time after bedtime without sitting alone in the other room for three minutes until calm enough for bed, NEVER get special food for dinner, NEVER eat in front of the TV. It has to be 100% perfect otherwise she will think,

"Mommy cracked. She said we didn't do that, but then we did. I can crack her again. Let's try."

And that is when I start looking up the number for local pharmacists.

I finally understand why parents get on automatic "no" mode. Because you can only think about about five questions a second, maximum, and if you mess up and say "yes" when you should have said "no" you are screwed for a minimum of one or two days. "You said! You said! You promised!"

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t's not neglect. You are giving yourself too hard a job. It's NOT neglect. It's PARENTING. Siblings get hurt by siblings. Children go on food strikes and sleep strikes. s long as you are monitoring and taking her to the doctors when you feel it is time, and you are using your momma instincts to protect your girls it is NOT neglect! You have to lighten up on yourself.


See, I do count it as neglect when a child is not eating regular meals, sleeping, having basic hygiene needs met (thank GOD she likes the bath...), or using a buckled car-seat. I'm sorry, but that's the whole reason it's hard. It wouldn't be hard if I could just let it go. It would be simple!

Oh, and I don't expect it to be easy.

I do expect to be able to not be told I'm disgusting and to be put in the trash every other day. To be able to have a bedtime routine. To be a SAHM and not live in squalor. To sleep four-five hours a night. To eat real food that is occasionally cooked (not re-heated). To be able to go shopping without having a tantrum.

It would be hard even if she were having one tantrum a day, napping half the time without getting up, and arguing with me about two or three things a day. That would be hard. Every day is hard.

Some days are impossible for me, though. And it is me, it is my fault. I just do not have the energy I need, and I do suspect it's PMS or pregnancy. You can see from the other threads I've posted on lately... I should just stop but it's a stress-valve for me to get the words out and I don't want to suck the time out of my friends' days, because they are in the same situation, stressed husbands away all the time, kids living with constant disruption, etc. etc.

Anyway, better get off and try to sleep.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I just lost a HUGE long reply with a lot of details, but in a nutshell:

Your expectations are TOO high, and it's not your fault. But you can change it...I will come to answer your queries in more detail this evening.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

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Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


He... doesn't... come out of the room. ??? He doesn't start yelling loudly (to wake up sibling)? He doesn't start jumping on the bed?


Yes, he did. I just kept replacing and repeating the words "I love you, good night." we still have bad night once in a while but it has tapered off dramatically in the last few months.

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Mine tells me I'm mean, a horrible person, and rude and disgusting, and she wants to throw me in the trash.


Typical lashing out in anger. It's not personal. She just has a feeling that is bigger than her and she wants you to hear it. Keep on giving her the words she needs and eventually she will start using them. DS still needs reminding, but there are glimmers of hope now and then that are keeping me going. This is three years into the process. It takes time, and an ego of steel to get through it.

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Mine wakes and falls asleep around the same time every day. She will fall asleep at five unless I am stimulating her with intensive activities (hard as that's dinner prep time) from five to seven, if she has no nap.


Why not move dinner for the kids to 4pm, put dd1 to bed at 5pm, then have a nice hot dinner with your dd1 and have your quiet time? I found DS would eat more the earlier dinner was. We now eat no later than 5pm and if he doesn't get to sleep after that he can snack through the evening on fruits and sandwiches. Dinner is just a word. There is no clock for dinner that everyone must abide by.

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My husband doesn't listen. Oh, sure, sometimes, not generally... no. Meh.


hmmmm. That's not good.

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Yeah, I could transition her into my room and then re-transition her. We could just do gentle sleep training for the next two years, but i"m not really up for that.


Or...just lt her fall asleep in your bed until dd1 falls asleep and pick her up and move her back to her own bed. Try to think outside the box.

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She doesn't mind the car-seat. She doesn't want to get buckled herself. She wants me to buckle her and argue about it. "Do it the wrong way." "No, not like THAT."


Sounds like maybe your dh does a lot of know-it-all correcting. Do you think she may see this game as a way to express love if she sees/hears you and DH doing it?

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This is a good point. We should do more screen time, actually. I was raised without TV and videos and I just never see them as a real option.


TV does not make you a bad mom. It's okay.

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They have a playroom. Our lifestyle, the military life, is not kid-friendly. Because when they say move, you move. I don't mean, move house. I mean, do this, do that. If you don't it counts against the soldier's career points. He can't be late, etc. He finally has his own car which should help. I was driving him everywhere for awhile.


Something needs to change. They need to feel safe in their home.

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My husband is constantly threatening divorce when he doesn't get his way. Yes, it's abusive, I know. But he's leaving for deployment soon so I can't think of re-settling now when we worked so hard to settle here.


that''s not cool. He needs to cut it out.

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We were thinking of number three. I'm okay with two, okay with three. I'd rather not have three as a single mom, but then, it wouldn't be the end of the world. After this I'm getting an IUD. I'm considering getting one now if I'm not already pregnant. We went on a great vacation and had a great three months or so running, so I really was beginning to think it could work.


That doesn't sound like a good idea for your sanity. Be good to yourself.

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Ugh, no, not my mom, been there, done that, LOL! I mean, I'm thankful for the help but discipline wise, what a disaster.


Okay then, your sister, MIL, A mom figure in your life?

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We don't have battles over non-health and safety issues. "I make you" means "I will make you have it done to you." I suppose it's not phrased very accurately.


uhhh either you do more of it than you think or you are dangerously preoccupied about health and safety. Popcorn in the same _room_ as a baby is not a choking hazard. Bare feet and dirty hair is not a health and safety issue. Bedtimes and meal times are not health and safety issues. They just aren't. If you put all those things in the same category as a car seats and teeth brushing, and not touching electric wires, and stranger danger it is no wonder she argues against EVERYTHING. You have to let her have control over some of the less important stuff.

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But you yourself said that I could make exceptions. But how can I make exceptions if she's going to bring them up against me in arguments?!?

?!?!? I know many other kids that do that but you are suggesting I can go easy.

NO exceptions, NO quarter. It's why we NEVER get ice-cream from the ice-cream truck (ruin the park experience forever), why we NEVER get treats at the grocery store (I don't feel like whining about it the whole darn time I go shopping for the next six years, thanks), why we NEVER get up more than one time after bedtime without sitting alone in the other room for three minutes until calm enough for bed, NEVER get special food for dinner, NEVER eat in front of the TV. It has to be 100% perfect otherwise she will think,

"Mommy cracked. She said we didn't do that, but then we did. I can crack her again. Let's try."


Why can't you just roll your eyes and get over it if she questions you or brings it up? Why in the WORLD would you ascribe totally malicious intent to a THREE year old? Seriously. Think about it. She is THREE. Is she really such a mastermind, evil genius that she is plotting to confuse you and use your moments of weakness against you?

C'mon. Does that sound reasonable? Doesn't that sound just the weensiest bit paranoid?

She is looking to make SENSE of the world and the rules. Help her. Instead of resorting to absolutes that are unrealistic and unnatural, help her see that while it is disappointing that life is not ALWAYS a day the fair it is exciting that we never know when those days may come. Instead you are teaching her that those days NEVER come, and that's not true, nor is it a fun way to live life. It will make you a bitter person before your time. You are allowed to be fun mommy now and then and still be the authority figure in the house at the end of the day. Life is not so black and white, why should your house be? So she's angry and disappointed and calling names and having a fit...so what? If she were a teenager this would be disturbing, but at 3 it's perfectly normal and nothing to get upset about.

You have to kind of grow up a little bit and rise above her childish attacks and outbursts. It's not personal. She doesn't hate you. She doesn't want to throw you in the trash. She is three. She has no other way to communicate her anger and frustration than what she has seen and heard other gropwn ups do when they are angry and frustrated. It's HARD to find the nice words when you feel like a hornets nest in your head.

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And that is when I start looking up the number for local pharmacists.


 For her or you?

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I finally understand why parents get on automatic "no" mode. Because you can only think about about five questions a second, maximum, and if you mess up and say "yes" when you should have said "no" you are screwed for a minimum of one or two days. "You said! You said! You promised!"


But this is defeatist and counter productive. Eventually the children will find a way to meet their need for autonomy, and sure as the day is long it won't be in a safe manner when they do.

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See, I do count it as neglect when a child is not eating regular meals, sleeping, having basic hygiene needs met (thank GOD she likes the bath...), or using a buckled car-seat. I'm sorry, but that's the whole reason it's hard. It wouldn't be hard if I could just let it go. It would be simple!


Car seat yes. Teeth brushing, yes. Eating what you want her to eat WHEN you want her to eat, forcing baths (not that long ago people only bathed once a week and that was the very wealthy...this is NOT a health issue, it's a modern convenience), using sleep schedules that don't work...Those are just NOT on the same playing feild. the more you insist they are the more she is going to question every rule. It's like when a country has absurd laws like going 30 MPH on a busy highway...if you make all the rules of equal importance, then even when it is important all the laws will be argued and eventually when she is big enough totally ignored.

There HAS to be a priority system, triage, especially at this age. Some lessons she has to learn alone.

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Oh, and I don't expect it to be easy.


That's good...but also don't expect it to be fast.

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I do expect to be able to not be told I'm disgusting and to be put in the trash every other day. To be able to have a bedtime routine. To be a SAHM and not live in squalor. To sleep four-five hours a night. To eat real food that is occasionally cooked (not re-heated). To be able to go shopping without having a tantrum.


Setting boundaries takes time and patience. The other things, bedtimes, a messy house, a full nights sleep, real hot food, stress free shopping...those things are about five years away at the minimum. I am sorry to tell you that, but it is the truth. It comes with the package of having kids. If you fight this reality you will only make yourself, and your children utterly miserable and prolong the torture. Ease up a bit and in fact you will see you didn't need to hold the reigns so tightly.

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It would be hard even if she were having one tantrum a day, napping half the time without getting up, and arguing with me about two or three things a day. That would be hard. Every day is hard.

Some days are impossible for me, though. And it is me, it is my fault. I just do not have the energy I need, and I do suspect it's PMS or pregnancy. You can see from the other threads I've posted on lately... I should just stop but it's a stress-valve for me to get the words out and I don't want to suck the time out of my friends' days, because they are in the same situation, stressed husbands away all the time, kids living with constant disruption, etc. etc.


It IS impossible. That's why 90% of the people I know are in counselling or on drugs or self-medicating. A parent's job is hard and it never ever ends. It's a crappy reality but there it is. You are not alone and it is NOT your fault, but you can start to change things if you choose a new perspective and change your paradigm.

I am going to recommend a book that I think will help you a lot. It's called Monster Lies (monsterlies.com). My mom co-authored it. It is really a good book to start recognizing the lies we tell ourselves that limit our ability to be the people we want to be.

Your DH sounds like he needs counselling, too. Would he be willing to go with you? I hope so. If nothing else so he can hear how lonely and unsupported you feel and the incredibly unrealistic expectations you have for yourself that he is helping to push on you. Not cool, man!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

mama i have not read all your posts.

yes i have done it. as a single mom with no help when dd was young - i had no choice. it was either go stark raving crazy or completely lose it.

however that's when i learnt too.

i discovered my dd's sleep routine. that's when i discovered that if she went to bed when SHE was ready to she slept much better thru the night. i try to put her down earlier and she wakes up multiple times.

plus my dd is v. high energy. at 3 she could walk 4 miles no problem. if she hadnt gotten enough physical exercise she could not fall asleep.

HOWEVER, her arguing did not bother me. because of how i 'looked at' her arguing. it was a skill i wanted her to have when she was an adult. it was a new thing for her and i knew in the beginning it would be overwhelming because she herself was trying to figure it out.

i started calling her the lawyer in teh house. and i actually would argue back at the right time.

that's also when i changed my parenting. and instead of forcing my views on her i would allow her to make a logical argument. like why not have icecream for breakfast. she argued back well if she ate her oatmeal why couldnt she eat icecream. and i agreed provided she DID.

and guess what she DID!!!!

all that arguing has actually turned out to be a wonderful parenting tool. it is what supports the 'how to talk to your kids... book'. today that my dd is older that is how we talk.

it keeps our communication open, it gives my dd critical thinking skills and for me as a parent it forces me to walk the talk.

however yes mama its hard during those times. esp. when you are all used up.

that is why i shared with you what comes later hoping that when you are at your lowest you can just close your eyes and imagine an older child bowling an adult over with her thinking skills. this indeed has happened to my dd and i attribute it to the lawyer living in my house since she was very young.

my favourite was - my dd ALWAYS had to have the last word.
"ok DD you have 5 minutes before we have to leave." she was 2
"NO I WANT 2 minutes."







ok YOU said it (of course that is before she could count)

--------------------------------------------------------------

EdnaMarie - i have read your whole thread.

and this is where i see lies the problem.

you are getting no BREAKS. the kind of breaks YOU need.

you are under a LOT of stress. i hope you understand how much stress you are under.

the problem is not your kids. its your attitude as you yourself have pointed it out.

the key doesnt lie with your children. it lies with you.

i have walked the talk so i know what i am talking about.

you have to find a way to get a break. a mental break - whether with your kids or not. you need to get in touch with yourself. there is an aweful lot of stuff going on in your life. who is taking care of "YOU"? with everythign else an toddler aND a 3 year old is HARD.

you HAVE TO figure something out mama. SOMETHING!!! only then you will get some peace from everywhere. and only THEN will life get a bit easy. and then you can be the parent you want to be.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *hakeber*


Yes, he did. I just kept replacing and repeating the words "I love you, good night." we still have bad night once in a while but it has tapered off dramatically in the last few months.


Who took care of the baby? I mean, that's what I do, but then my one-year-old wakes up. It's just not an OPTION for all of us to be sleep deprived all the time.

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Typical lashing out in anger. It's not personal. She just has a feeling that is bigger than her and she wants you to hear it. Keep on giving her the words she needs and eventually she will start using them. DS still needs reminding, but there are glimmers of hope now and then that are keeping me going. This is three years into the process. It takes time, and an ego of steel to get through it.


I know it's typical. How can I communicate to her that it's not acceptable, if I accept it?

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Why not move dinner for the kids to 4pm, put dd1 to bed at 5pm, then have a nice hot dinner with your dd1 and have your quiet time? I found DS would eat more the earlier dinner was. We now eat no later than 5pm and if he doesn't get to sleep after that he can snack through the evening on fruits and sandwiches. Dinner is just a word. There is no clock for dinner that everyone must abide by.


Because then we would never go out and it would be just me and the kids inside all day, aside from pre-school. Otherwise a very good idea.

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hmmmm. That's not good.


That's life.

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Or...just lt her fall asleep in your bed until dd1 falls asleep and pick her up and move her back to her own bed. Try to think outside the box.


We have been in the fall-asleep-in-my-bed-box. It was hellish. I am actively choosing this one over the whole "I fall asleep in mommy's bed" fiasco. Though, I am staggering bedtimes, started. Now if only I could start bedtime by 6:30 and still get my kids their necessary outdoors time... nap... three meals... ugh.

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Sounds like maybe your dh does a lot of know-it-all correcting. Do you think she may see this game as a way to express love if she sees/hears you and DH doing it?


DH more complains than corrects. I'm sure she's modeling some of it.

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TV does not make you a bad mom. It's okay.


It doesn't make me a bad mom but it's a massive waste of time!

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Something needs to change. They need to feel safe in their home.


Well, we could always try to get jobs in the for-profit world (we were non-profit staff before) after two years. That will be impossible if he goes AWOL- he'll be in prison. All military kids go through this. It may sound rough, but then, my friend is a single mom and a farmer and she has to ask her kids to do things with her all the time, and no, it's not always predictable. Poverty sucks!

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that''s not cool. He needs to cut it out.


Meh. He won't.

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Okay then, your sister, MIL, A mom figure in your life?


I live in another country (again, military, but we've lived overseas for some time). The military gives us respite care when they are deployed (a couple hours a week). Not any other time.

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uhhh either you do more of it than you think or you are dangerously preoccupied about health and safety. Popcorn in the same _room_ as a baby is not a choking hazard. Bare feet and dirty hair is not a health and safety issue. Bedtimes and meal times are not health and safety issues. They just aren't. If you put all those things in the same category as a car seats and teeth brushing, and not touching electric wires, and stranger danger it is no wonder she argues against EVERYTHING. You have to let her have control over some of the less important stuff.


See for me, eating, sleeping, and exercising are health. You can only let them go for so long before it does affect development. Popcorn is just an example and it's not the safest thing for pre-schoolers, either.

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Why can't you just roll your eyes and get over it if she questions you or brings it up? Why in the WORLD would you ascribe totally malicious intent to a THREE year old? Seriously. Think about it. She is THREE. Is she really such a mastermind, evil genius that she is plotting to confuse you and use your moments of weakness against you?


I am not ascribing EVIL to her. She does it in a playful way, subconsciously. And she does. When I hug her, she asks for candy. Like, "Oh, she's feeling loving, I'll ask for something nice." I don't consider that evil. But it is certainly taking advantage, LOL!

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She is looking to make SENSE of the world and the rules. Help her. Instead of resorting to absolutes that are unrealistic and unnatural, help her see that while it is disappointing that life is not ALWAYS a day the fair it is exciting that we never know when those days may come. Instead you are teaching her that those days NEVER come, and that's not true, nor is it a fun way to live life.


It's not fun to spend every moment saying "no" either, and I say "no" way more often after a "yes" than when I say "no" definitively and give a rock-solid reason. Let me give you an example. Suppose she asks for a notebook, and I say, "Sure, because your old notebook is full."

I guarantee you, because I know her, that she will proceed to ask for everything else in the store that she wants, to argue, and cry, and whatnot and try to put it in the cart.

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.

Whereas if I just said, "No. It's not on the list." and repeated that two or three times, she'd be okay.

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You are allowed to be fun mommy now and then and still be the authority figure in the house at the end of the day.


You know what? I think I said the exact opposite to my sister the other day on the phone: "I just don't see why I can't be a fun mommy and still be the authority figure at the end of the day!" I swear it was very, very similar words. Because I hate being the hard-asterisk all the time, I do! But if I don't, suddenly life becomes 10x more difficult for all of us.

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Life is not so black and white, why should your house be? So she's angry and disappointed and calling names and having a fit...so what? If she were a teenager this would be disturbing, but at 3 it's perfectly normal and nothing to get upset about.


Sure, not if I can leave them with DH when I go shopping. But he's gone half the time and the stores here close at seven.

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You have to kind of grow up a little bit and rise above her childish attacks and outbursts. It's not personal.


I take offense at that. I'm not taking her anger personally. It is IRRITATING ME and I cannot take care of our other child, and we can't do the things I think they deserve to do, including eat decent meals! I know she's only three.

But I think asking a 3.5 year old not to say you are disgusting is reasonable. I really do.

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She has no other way to communicate her anger and frustration than what she has seen and heard other gropwn ups do when they are angry and frustrated.


But we don't say we are throwing someone in the trash can when we are angry or frustrated! We don't say, "You're disgusting!" We don't hit. She does all of these things. Again, I realize that they are common but they are also NOT ACCEPTABLE.

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For her or you?


Me first! Me first!

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But [no] is defeatist and counter productive. Eventually the children will find a way to meet their need for autonomy, and sure as the day is long it won't be in a safe manner when they do.


What do you suggest? Thoughtfully answering approximately, let's see, it's about ten questions a minute on average, sixty per hour (no she doesn't breathe, she's three), she talks with her mouth full though it does slow her down but about half of her speech is refusing or telling stories so I'm guessing with 12-13 waking hours, that's 360 questions a day?

About, for example, why heat burns our fingers?

And NO she does not wait to hear the real answer, either, but if I don't reply, she complains.

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Car seat yes. Teeth brushing, yes. Eating what you want her to eat WHEN you want her to eat,


We don't force food-she never has to eat anything. She eats what we eat, or plain bread (she can have condiments if she doesn't like something), or she doesn't eat.

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forcing baths (not that long ago people only bathed once a week and that was the very wealthy...this is NOT a health issue, it's a modern convenience),


Actually she loves the bath but it's only thrice-weekly.

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using sleep schedules that don't work...Those are just NOT on the same playing feild.


But NO sleep schedule works. She complains no matter when we put her to bed. She can be yawning and her eyes batting and she still desperately tries to stay awake. If we let her, she's up until midnight or later and then up in the morning and a mess.

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There HAS to be a priority system, triage, especially at this age. Some lessons she has to learn alone.


She learns a lot alone, I think. All I'm asking is that she does not treat me like a dog or something. No yelling, no name-calling, none of that stuff. And that she respects the fact that sometimes our family has to do what she doesn't want to do. I don't think that's such a big deal. She has lots of free time, art time, play time, play breaks, park time...

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Setting boundaries takes time and patience. The other things, bedtimes, a messy house, a full nights sleep, real hot food, stress free shopping...those things are about five years away at the minimum. I am sorry to tell you that, but it is the truth. It comes with the package of having kids. If you fight this reality you will only make yourself, and your children utterly miserable and prolong the torture. Ease up a bit and in fact you will see you didn't need to hold the reigns so tightly.


Yeah, I'm going to eat meat. Sorry. I know PLENTY of people who eat meat, who make casseroles, who have a normal (not perfect, of course! but also not appalling) house, and who sleep more than four hours a night. And they also have two small kids, or even three.

I simply don't believe we have to be anemic and live in squalor, which would happen if I didn't clean or cook, just so that my 3.5 year old can have the luxury of questioning everything and being rude. I mean, does that make sense?

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It IS impossible. That's why 90% of the people I know are in counselling or on drugs or self-medicating. A parent's job is hard and it never ever ends. It's a crappy reality but there it is. You are not alone and it is NOT your fault, but you can start to change things if you choose a new perspective and change your paradigm.


I dunno, I feel like you think I'm asking for sympathy or complaining. HOnestly, I did not expect it to be easier. I want to do something so that she does not get the idea that it's okay to argue with everything. I'm not sure if that's getting across. It is just NOT okay to tell someone else they're wrong all the time. It's rude, it's a time-waster, it's irritating, and thoughtless contradiction is also just silly.

Yes, she is learning but there must be a way to say, "This is an emergency. We are not arguing any more."

Five times a day. That's all I'm asking. Two sleeps, two car trips, one other emergency, let's just say. Without screaming, without negotiating, without bargaining. I've seen people do it. Their kids just follow them out of the store. Like that. Like magic.

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Your DH sounds like he needs counselling, too. Would he be willing to go with you? I hope so. If nothing else so he can hear how lonely and unsupported you feel and the incredibly unrealistic expectations you have for yourself that he is helping to push on you. Not cool, man!








Ohhh, don't even read the thread about my husband. Honestly, he's beyond hope.

I see what you're saying, but I guess I'm not willing to give up on the fact that there are certain things we do, and certain things we don't do, even if we are three. I wouldn't let a two-year-old call me garbage, either.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Incidentally, I like the questions. My only issue is when they involve "can I have" and she's already eaten. She loves sweets and I get soooo sick of being a broken record.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

EdnaMarie, I don't have any advice, but I've been following this thread and it just breaks my heart. Many hugs and prayers for you.......I am so sorry your kiddo is so overwhelmingly complicated!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

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Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Who took care of the baby? I mean, that's what I do, but then my one-year-old wakes up. It's just not an OPTION for all of us to be sleep deprived all the time.

I did. I just keep her with me, or put her down in my room on the bed when she is sleeping. It's not that big a deal. I get cross and irritatble when she wakes because of his yelling, but because I get breaks I get perspective and can breathe. I bet if you got a nice break you could face it with more light and peace, too.

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I know it's typical. How can I communicate to her that it's not acceptable, if I accept it?
But why is it accepting the behavior or condoning the behavior to say gently "We don't use those words in our family. Please use these words instead."

I don't ACCEPT bad behavior from DS, but neither do I ascribe blame or manipulative intent when he chooses bad behavior and punish him based on that assumption. I ascibe it to his immature development. Do you see the difference?

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Because then we would never go out and it would be just me and the kids inside all day, aside from pre-school. Otherwise a very good idea.
Sooo you can only go out between 4 and 7pm???? Really? Do you live somewhere where they have Siesta between 11am and 4pm? Can't you go out while DD1 is at pre-school? I am willing to bet that pre-school is plenty of stimulation for her for a 24 hour period (especially for a true extrovert who will actually get MORE wound up the more social she is). I am totally confused by this assertion. Why can't you go out while she is at pre-school and in the mornings and early afternoons on the weekends?

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That's life.
Not for everyone. For a lot of people that is not life at all. I wish you had someone near you to tell you how much you deserve and that you deserve much more than that for your life.

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We have been in the fall-asleep-in-my-bed-box. It was hellish. I am actively choosing this one over the whole "I fall asleep in mommy's bed" fiasco. Though, I am staggering bedtimes, started. Now if only I could start bedtime by 6:30 and still get my kids their necessary outdoors time... nap... three meals... ugh.
Why can't you make bedtime at 6:30? And I do not think DD1 should sleep in your bed. Put DD2 in your bed while DD1 watches a video or has her supper, and then move her AFTER DD1 has fallen asleep. By the time DD1 is able to go to bed on her own (around 6 or 7 on average) you can start helping DD2 to make the transition.

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DH more complains than corrects. I'm sure she's modeling some of it.
That sucks. Can you record her while he is gone so he can get that more concretely.

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It doesn't make me a bad mom but it's a massive waste of time!
First of all, so what? Second of all, it's totally NOT a waste of time if it quiets her mind and affords you the peace you need to function. Not at ALL a waste of time.

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Well, we could always try to get jobs in the for-profit world (we were non-profit staff before) after two years. That will be impossible if he goes AWOL- he'll be in prison. All military kids go through this. It may sound rough, but then, my friend is a single mom and a farmer and she has to ask her kids to do things with her all the time, and no, it's not always predictable. Poverty sucks!
Two years feels like a LONG time in the middle of Two years. Wokring on two contracts in my field I totally understand that...how much longer do you have? Can you see the light at the end of the tunnel?

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Meh. He won't.
Why?

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I live in another country (again, military, but we've lived overseas for some time). The military gives us respite care when they are deployed (a couple hours a week). Not any other time.
Me too. Is it a cheap country? Can you get help or trade help locally? Your LO hates the babysitter you said...so what? You need a break and you will be a better mama for it if you get one. I guarantee it. She might even learn to like it eventually.

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See for me, eating, sleeping, and exercising are health. You can only let them go for so long before it does affect development. Popcorn is just an example and it's not the safest thing for pre-schoolers, either.
Yes and when it gets to the point that it is not safe you take them to the doctors as a natural consequence of their choice and find out what is wrong because amazingly those three issues in particular are hard wired to our survival and if the child after working through their issues of resistance and will power still does not fall into their own healthy sleeping eating and exercise/play routine after a week or two left completely to their own accord, it is very possibly due to a medical or psychological issue that needs to be sorted out, but while you are in control and making demands you will never really know.

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I am not ascribing EVIL to her. She does it in a playful way, subconsciously. And she does. When I hug her, she asks for candy. Like, "Oh, she's feeling loving, I'll ask for something nice." I don't consider that evil. But it is certainly taking advantage, LOL!
You said you believe she thinks: "Mommy cracked. She said we didn't do that, but then we did. *I can crack her again. Let's try*."

If that's not ascribing malice and assuming an underlying personal attack and coniving manipulation, I do not know what is and I do not believe one could come up with that assumption if one did not feel persoanlly affronted by the behavior in question.

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It's not fun to spend every moment saying "no" either, and I say "no" way more often after a "yes" than when I say "no" definitively and give a rock-solid reason. Let me give you an example. Suppose she asks for a notebook, and I say, "Sure, because your old notebook is full."

I guarantee you, because I know her, that she will proceed to ask for everything else in the store that she wants, to argue, and cry, and whatnot and try to put it in the cart.

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.

so what?

It's not a big deal. It's normal. And why spend your whole life saying no because you are afraid of the conflict if you say yes now and then...the conflict will pass eventually and you will be a happier person if you get to be fun mommy now and then.

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Whereas if I just said, "No. It's not on the list." and repeated that two or three times, she'd be okay.
Yeah, but you feel like a bad guy because you know she needs and could make good use of a new notebook...so where's the fun for YOU, and taking care of YOUR need to be the fun mom?

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You know what? I think I said the exact opposite to my sister the other day on the phone: "I just don't see why I can't be a fun mommy and still be the authority figure at the end of the day!" I swear it was very, very similar words. Because I hate being the hard-asterisk all the time, I do! But if I don't, suddenly life becomes 10x more difficult for all of us.
Well, that is only because, with all due respect, you expect her to behave and process information like a grown up. She doesn't, and you have to face it with firm guidelines, and LOVE.

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Sure, not if I can leave them with DH when I go shopping. But he's gone half the time and the stores here close at seven.
huh? You do know that a child having a tantrum in a store or restaurant is not a big deal. It may give you a headache, but there is no shame in having a kid meltdown in public. Let them have at it. In fact the more public the better. Let everyone feel your pain. Pop an advil and let them scream their heads off. So what?! Every mom has had it happen and every parent in the store will comisserate with you. It's not a big deal. The others will get over it and the child will see it has ZERO affect on you. After a few years they will stop.

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I take offense at that. I'm not taking her anger personally. It is IRRITATING ME and I cannot take care of our other child, and we can't do the things I think they deserve to do, including eat decent meals! I know she's only three.

But I think asking a 3.5 year old not to say you are disgusting is reasonable. I really do.
I am sorry I offended you. It was not my intention, but you seem to take it personally when you say that she is TRYING to wind you up and is TRYING to get away with stuff.

If she is impeding you from caring for your other child or putting nutritious food on the table, you need help. It is absolutely NOT a reasonable request of a 3.5 year old to communicate respectfully and politely all the time. They do not have the language skills at the age to communicate in a non-violent way when they feel they are under attack, or angry or frustrated. They don't. It really is YOUR job to rise above it and say calmly and lovingly "I hear that you are very angry/sad/disappointed/frustrated, but your words are very hurtful right now. I will not sit here and be abused. When you are ready to apologize, let me know." give a hug and walk away.

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But we don't say we are throwing someone in the trash can when we are angry or frustrated! We don't say, "You're disgusting!" We don't hit. She does all of these things. Again, I realize that they are common but they are also NOT ACCEPTABLE.
One: she must be hearing something like that somewhere. This is not an innate concept. Maybe you don't say that in your house...well keep reminding her of that. Two: No one said you have to ACCEPT it, but you could try to be empathetic and understanding and not assume the worst of your child. THAT would be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Me first! Me first!
Have you spoken to your counselor about the possiblity of hormone treatment or psyhotropic drugs? Our bodies are drastically changed by pregnancy hormones and according to my midwife after each kid our hormones become more and more whacky and unpredictable and our mental chemistry is all askew. Maybe some chemical replacements might not be a bad idea for you. At least keep a handy stash of Advil and rescue remedy!

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*What do you suggest? Thoughtfully answering approximately, let's see, it's about ten questions a minute on average, sixty per hour (no she doesn't breathe, she's three), she talks with her mouth full though it does slow her down but about half of her speech is refusing or telling stories so I'm guessing with 12-13 waking hours, that's 360 questions a day?*

About, for example, why heat burns our fingers?

And NO she does not wait to hear the real answer, either, but if I don't reply, she complains.
ummmm, yes









Sorry but yeah. You can say periodically "Okay! That's enough Question shop is CLOSED!" or make a game of it by giving her a stack of playing cards and she is allowed to ask one question for every card and that's it for the day (good luck! Ha ha!) But mostly, yes...just answer as thoughtfully as you can.

The thing I found that really helped DS was when I would sit with him and we would google stuff. He'd say "Why does heat burn our fingers?" and we'd go look it up which would at least pause the questions for a little while...sometimes.







not always. I went through a lot of Advil that year...should have bought stock in Bayer!

Mostly you just put up with it for the next year or so and if it doesn't calm down, she'll be able to start reading and can look the stuff up herself.

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We don't force food-she never has to eat anything. She eats what we eat, or plain bread (she can have condiments if she doesn't like something), or she doesn't eat.
Do you think it might be time to re-think that strategy? Do you think maybe a shelf of healthy foods might work well for her? Do you think an earlier dinner might suit her so you can have YOUR dinner hot and healthy and PEACEFUL? Just a thought.

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But NO sleep schedule works. She complains no matter when we put her to bed. She can be yawning and her eyes batting and she still desperately tries to stay awake. If we let her, she's up until midnight or later and then up in the morning and a mess.
I'm confused, upthread you said she sleeps and wakes at the same time everyday and if it were up to her she'd be asleep at 5pm...







.Isn't that a sleep schedule that could work for her? Sounds to me that by the time she gets to 7pm she is over stimulated again and cannot sleep.

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She learns a lot alone, I think. All I'm asking is that she does not treat me like a dog or something. No yelling, no name-calling, none of that stuff. And that she respects the fact that sometimes our family has to do what she doesn't want to do. I don't think that's such a big deal. She has lots of free time, art time, play time, play breaks, park time...
But to her it IS a big deal. Remember when you were a teenager and something REALLY small was like the END of the WORLD? It's like that EVERY DAY, EVEYRY MOMENT for toddlers. Every denial is the end of their life as they know it. Every disappointment is the pinnacle of defeat. They see the world in dramatic vignettes, and every moment is capable of providing total elation or total depression. So asking her to put it perspective and appreciate how much she does get is TOTALLY unreasonable. She doesn't get it. Even super smart genius babies don't get this stuff. She won't get it for a long time. Some kids don't get it until they have their own kids.

You don't need to accept the bad choices, but you will need to accept her feelings about her choices if you want a relationship with your child where she trusts you implicitly, and you will need to listen openly to the feelings that led to those choices. You will need to ask why she made those choices and listen with an open mind, even when she starts lying bald faced lies. You will need to guide her towards making better choices by giving her the freedom to make the choice when it isn't a _life or death_ issue. Maybe that should be your health and safety water-mark. Is this life or death? If not, let it go.

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Yeah, I'm going to eat meat. Sorry. I know PLENTY of people who eat meat, who make casseroles, who have a normal (not perfect, of course! but also not appalling) house, and who sleep more than four hours a night. And they also have two small kids, or even three.

I simply don't believe we have to be anemic and live in squalor, which would happen if I didn't clean or cook, just so that my 3.5 year old can have the luxury of questioning everything and being rude. I mean, does that make sense?
I do not see the connection. Who said you have to give up meat? Who said you need to live in squalor (though I dare say your definition of squalor and mine may vary GREATLY.)? who said you need to cater to her whims? Will you need to reheat your dinner three times to eat it hot? Probably. Will you need to work harder to keep your house tidy? Definitely. Can you get more sleep? I think you can unless there are physical problems in question but not if you demand she shift to your schedule rather than the other way around.

Make casseroles on the weekends, and freeze them. Learn a few recipes for dinner that can go in a crockpot and get one at a garage sale. Do something to mitigate the circumstances rather than expecting a toddler/child to get with the proverbial program. Change the program.

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I dunno, I feel like you think I'm asking for sympathy or complaining. HOnestly, I did not expect it to be easier. I want to do something so that she does not get the idea that it's okay to argue with everything. I'm not sure if that's getting across. It is just NOT okay to tell someone else they're wrong all the time. It's rude, it's a time-waster, it's irritating, and thoughtless contradiction is also just silly.
You don't need to ask for sympathy. Your situation is impossible. I guess you have to ask yourself WHY it is not okay to argue with EVERYTHING and if that's even true. Maybe you CAN argue about everything. Maybe a truly intelligent person DOES argue and turn over the evidence of EVERYTHING and maybe you should try and enjoy the fact that you have a kid who will do that rather than just accept what they are told as fact and wind up in serious trouble following the advice of those who wish them harm.

There's the time waster comment again...what's the big deal with wasting time? You got somewhere to be? Are you dying in a few weeks or something? (god almighty please don't let that be true) Try to think of it as SPENDING time rather than wasting it. I am sure she sees it that way. I know the ethos of most western countries is that time is money, but that is a false paradigm. Time is not money. Time is time. Money is money. You can exchange your time for money, but you cannot exchange your money for time. You cannot buy back these days with your kids. They are gone and gone forever. If you can delight in her mental process or find SOME ounce of joy in her personality, maybe you can see it as a good value for your time, rather than a waste.

It's not universally rude to tell someone they are wrong all the time. It can be an important life skill. She may well grow up to be the top problem solver in the UN and tell everyone they are wrong all the time and wind up reaching world peace if she learns how to do it nicely.

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Yes, she is learning but there must be a way to say, "This is an emergency. We are not arguing any more."
That's it. That's how you say it. I would follow that up with "It's okay to be mad or sad about this, but it IS happening, so let's get on with it. I love you and will listen to you if you need to vent."

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Five times a day. That's all I'm asking. Two sleeps, two car trips, one other emergency, let's just say. Without screaming, without negotiating, without bargaining. I've seen people do it. Their kids just follow them out of the store. *Like that. Like magic.*
HA! What you don't see would amaze you. How about the fifty other times when they didn't do that. How about the YEARS and YEARS of cajoling and pleading and rationalizing and reasoning...oh god. It's not magic, it's just lucky timing that you saw those kids that day.

We see ourselves in measurement to others when we believe we have to live up to some impossible standard. Every parent has had their fair share of tantrums and screaming. EVERY parent. You see them for a glimpse and think they must be doing something different? If only the young human mind could be so predictable.

Take a break. Make less opportunities for the screaming matches (like if she dropped her nap and went to bed earlier when she is normally tired as you mentioned above, that would be two fewer screaming matches a day. ) and let the other wash over you as much as you can. "Just I am sorry you feel that way. I still love you."

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Ohhh, don't even read the thread about my husband. Honestly, he's beyond hope.
Not to get personal, but since I think that ship has more than set sail...why are you with him?

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I see what you're saying, but I guess I'm not willing to give up on the fact that there are certain things we do, and certain things we don't do, even if we are three. I wouldn't let a two-year-old call me garbage, either.
You don't need to let her call you garbage, I never said that. But neither do you need to take it to heart and hold a grudge when she does. You can choose any number of responses that do not exacerbate the situation and instead offer her empathy and safety and kindness to work through her anger and find the words more easily with every melt down.

There _are_ certain things we do and don't do, but it takes a long time to learn what those are, not a year of repetition, YEARS and YEARS of repetition. Years and years.

I hope you find a way to get a break soon.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

I just felt the need to step in and comment on your post, hakeber. While I can understand where you are coming from in trying to help EdnaMarie, I don't get the whole "this is normal" thing you keep mentioning. In my experience, it's not. It's nowhere _near_ the scope of normal. Not with my kids; not with my friends' kids.

When you say things like "these things take years to learn" or "you are probably another 5 years away from getting the behavior you want", I know you're trying to help her and give her a glimmer of hope, but *judging from my own experience* it seems to me like....I don't know....for whatever reasons I can't finish this thought.

Anyway, I can understand why Edna Marie is at the end of her rope. I would be too. I would be a wreck....I would cease enjoying my child, and it would spiral into resentment.









I don't know if it's her poor home life with her mommy & daddy's relationship or what, but I think this little girl has some deep anger issues for whatever reasons, and that she's also a highly intelligent little girl who has some need that, for whatever reason, Edna Marie cannot fulfill because she doesn't know what that need is. Yet.

So, not to pick on you, hakeber, but I just wanted to point out that *to me and every person I know* these behaviors aren't really "normal". Sure, the few times a day tantrums and things are, and the few times a day challenging authority or not listening or having meltdowns, but not an entire day (or an entire bedtime routine, or an entire shopping trip, etc) filled with contrariety.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

well, in my circle of friends and family this sort of precociousness is totally expected of the under fives. I said five more years because she has an 18 mo old as well. In Latin America it is practically encouraged. It's just not a big deal where we have had kids. I really think expecting three year olds to act like older kids is not fair.

DS at this moment is having a reasoned but heated argument with Gravity. He's trying to build a floating track....Darned Gravity!









I don't think my kid was in any way more difficult than any other kid his age. His cousins and peers have all been through similar phases of equal intensity, and EdnaMarie's experiences sound _identical_ to what I went through with DS at that age.

I'm not just trying to make her feel better. That's my truth. I absolutely understand why she is at the end of her rope. Parenting is not meant to be a one man job.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Wow, I posted a long reply but I guess it didn't post!

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His cousins and peers have all been through similar phases of equal intensity, and EdnaMarie's experiences sound identical to what I went through with DS at that age.
You said it would last years. Dude, no freaking way.

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why are you with him?
As much as I'd love to relocate across continents to live on public assistance (without health care, wheeeee!) while I MAYBE found a job that would barely pay for daycare and half our food needs, while my children sat in daycare a minimum of nine hours a day, and still have no support because my support lives hours from the nearest city with employment opportunities in my field... or any field... I dunno, I guess I'm just staying for the fun of it?

I mean, seriously?

Anyway- I will just say that I think you (hakeber) have seriously ascribed much different feelings and a level of anger to me that's not there. I'm frustrated and tired but not angry. My child has intentions but that doesn't mean I believe they're MALICIOUS intentions, as you seem to think. There's a huge difference.

I also don't appreciate the insinuation that somehow I need a break or a different marriage. There are about five billion people on this earth that have it worse off than me, and I think some of us can be good parents. It is insulting to suggest that a middle-class income or above is necessary for good parenting. There are plenty of single moms on here who have more on their plates than I do and they are doing it.

To everyone, we are doing better. I am making EVERYTHING a race, a game, a challenge, a graded task. If that doesn't work, it's the good ol' "you will do it in three or I do it for you" and if that doesn't work (i.e. she runs away or it's something like calling names), she just goes away, period.

My only issue is that she doesn't stay in time-out. So we are dealing with that. We're not allowed locks on doors, which is the gentlest way I can see to keep her in there without rewarding her by making it into a game (and ignoring my other child).

We'll see.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
To everyone, we are doing better. I am making EVERYTHING a race, a game, a challenge, a graded task. If that doesn't work, it's the good ol' "you will do it in three or I do it for you" and if that doesn't work (i.e. she runs away or it's something like calling names), she just goes away, period.
.

It sounds like you have a plan


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

EdnaMarie, I am deeply sorry that you feel I was belittling your situation. That was nver my intention in the least. I do not believe you need a new marriage. We do what works for us, I only wanted to understand. You can't hear my tone through the internet, my question was open and honest. I was not judging, just trying to understand. I do think a break from your kids would give you time to recgarge. Yes single moms around the world do more, handle more, and never ask for help. That doesn't mean they have to, or that we have to measure up to them. And the single moms I know need breaks too. If I lived near you, I would do for you what I do for my 2 single mom girlfriends and and my partnered mom friend whose partner goes away for long periods of time and I'd watch your kids together with my kids for a few hours every couple of weekends. I wish I could do that for you. I do pray that you will be sent someone to relieve you.

You SEEM to feel so _stuck_. Maybe it is just not coming through right on the board. I can't read your tone of voice either. I only have _your_ words to go by. It's a feeling that you are conveying with every denial, every can't, and every never you type for us to read. I just want to help you feel hope and possibility.

I am sorry I have misunderstood your posts. I genuinely was trying to help problem solve with you, not judge or belittle you. I am deeply sorry.

I am glad to hear you are feeling more confident and in charge of the situation and discovering a plan that works for you. Take good care of yourself. Even _single_ moms need and _get_ breaks from time to time.

PM me anytime if you need to vent. I promise I won't try to fix it, I'll just listen.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I do feel stuck, but stuck on one or two or major issues, not like, on my whole life. I don't know how to remove her from the situation when she keeps coming back, and that will remain a source of eternal frustration for me. To keep her in one place requires at the very least a loud voice that is really not what is necessary.

Thanks for your post. I guess I felt that you were really not understanding the situation or my relationship with my daughter (which can be SO GOOD as she has such a generous heart) but also very tough. I think it's an oldest-daughter/mother thing as well.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

But I think asking a 3.5 year old not to say you are disgusting is reasonable. I really do.>>>>

My only issue is that she doesn't stay in time-out. So we are dealing with that. We're not allowed locks on doors, which is the gentlest way I can see to keep her in there without rewarding her by making it into a game (and ignoring my other child).
>>>>>>>>

Making things into a game is not rewarding behavior you don't like. I think that might be part of the problem. Giving hugs, connecting with your child, etc. are not rewarding "bad" behavior either(even if you do it right after). Buying an occasional treat at the store(if you want) or being "fun" does not mean you have to do it every time. Yes she will bring it up, my kids often bring up the(one







) time we had ice cream for dinner, I say "oh yes that was a fun treat"








I do agree with hakeber, some of these things just do take time. If your dd is in preschool go to the store while she's there. You better believe I grocery shop when my kids are in school during the day except for breaks. There was a time when I had 3 littles to take with me(5 y/o, almost 3 y/o and baby) and it sucked lol. But now my kids are 6,8 and 11 and it's a breeze compared to days past. So it will get better.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
And I'm effing TIRED of physically forcing her EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's been a darn year. A year. Of forcing most of the time. I mean, we're talking holding her down around 10 times a day, just because I refuse to argue. I started when she was two because I, too, thought it had to sink in. Right? Right? Eventually, they will stop fighting... right?

(Okay, not ten times a day. Teeth brushing = 2, naptime = 1, bedtime = 1, my chore for carseat = 2 (in and out of), for a total of six times, about five days a week. And of course not all of those were "holding down"--some were carrying out, etc.)

But she didn't. So I tried more emotional manipulation. Rewards. Punishments. Anything.

It sounds like there is combination of you having a very spirited child (strong-willed, tenacious, extroverted--all things I learned about my first from Raising Your Spirited Child) and many attempts to coerce her to do things that you want her to do and/or she doesn't want to do, and a very adversarial pattern has emerged.

I would not just "give up" but I can tell you what worked for me: switch to "yes." I started with the article, "Yes Days" from the Natural Child Project and just started saying yes wherever possible--even when I felt no, couldn't see how yes would or could happen--and worked to get on the same team as my kid.

I started this when he was a toddler and it was the best thing I have ever done as a parent. That strong-willed kid is now 8 and he is a DELIGHT! He knows that I go out of my way to make things happen for him and he gives back so much of that consideration.

We stopped making him brush his teeth...and he stopped for a long time when he was 3 or 4. Now he brushes and flosses on his own, his teeth have never had a cavity, he ADORES the dentist and she raves about how lovely his teeth are.

We stopped making him wash his hair and he went a loooong time w/out washing it. I was very uncomfortable, but stuck with it. Now he's happy to bath, wash, wear clean clothes, etc.

I would allow lots of extra time for him to do the carseat in the way he wanted, and, yes, it was a pain in the butt at the time, but it's a distant memory now. And he cheerfully rides in a booster seat (as does my 5 yr. old).

I can't imagine how totally enraged either of my kids would be if we put them in their rooms for punishment and would not let them out. Seriously, I can't even begin to imagine what that would do for our attachment. I wonder if you can consider time-ins vs. doing that?

I know coercion and punishments and consequences did not (and do not) work for my kids. It makes them dig in harder and I would have to go to some very extreme measures to basically break their will and have them comply. And it would destroy our relationship.

My (free







) advice is to shift your thinking from that of "making" her do to finding ways to model cooperation and "yes." It will come back around. And you may find yourself a lot less stressed out--god knows I have!

Best!


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

First: Monkey`s mom: I am so happy this approach has worked so well for you and your child.







I really am. But it doesn`t work for everyone. It doesn`t work for my son, and if I read EdnaMarie`s posts correctly, It might not work for her child either.

My son is 9 years old. For as long as he has had a voice, he has fought me on certaing things. Bathing, being clean, brushing hair, going to bed, getting dressed by himself are a few of them. Getting dressed by himself was a constant struggle for the age of 2 until 7. Yeah, constant for 5 years. Bathing, being clean, brushing hair and sleeping is still a constant struggle. ANd believe me, I have tried everything. Like you, I believed that saying yes, allowing him to make the descisions himself etc. would be the best way. But it wasn`t. Why? Because he doesn`t care. He doesn`t GET why this is important. Why being clean is important. He never has, and still doesn`t get it. So he fights me. Every time. These things are really awful for him. He is an extremely sensitive child in a lot of ways, and I think all these things are really hurting/scaring/bothering him. So he fights me.
(And I don`t push this every day. No way. Showering is like once a week now, because I finally after so many years understood that he will not change. Not because he finally understands or accepts that I decide this. Nope. So once a week it is.)

This was a longwinded way of saying that your way, lovely as it is







, just doesn`t work for everyone. I`m not saying that OP`s daughter is just like my son. I have no way of knowing that. But, from her posts I can feel the same strong will that my son has. So maybe, just maybe, her child won`t become different when she can decide more for herself. Not everyone does.









EdnaMarie:

I would so, so love to give you a hug. You seem like you could need one.







My son is older, but he shares a lot of the traits you talk about. Not the constant arguing over every thing, though. He needs me to interact with him absolutely every waking second of his day. Even when on the computer, he needs me to talk to him, watch what he does, be in HIS world. But he is never, ever interested in my world. Getting him to shop with me is a constant battle. I mean constant. SO where your daughter has turned to arguing, my son has turned to a more "basic" form of attentionseeking. But the need for constant interaction is there in them both, it seems like. Sorry if I am reading things into your post that isn`t there. I hope I am reading you right. I have been sooo exhausted soo many times I can`t tell you. And I have 1 child.

I think you have gotten a lot of wonderful advice. I really do. But I also see that some (many?) seem to say that everything you write about is normal. That everyone has kids like this. And I wonder if that might be untrue. Because I have a special kid. And he sounds a lot like your daughter. MAybe it`s hard for others to see the difference between "normal" kids-need-a-loong-time-to-learn-something, and the kind of behaviour some children have. Like my son, who has fought me for EVERY bath he has EVER taken , for the last 8 years. Literally.

I hope you can get some rest, and a break. Please be gentle with yourself. (And your daughter, but I absolutely believe you ARE gentle with her.)


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Maybe I should've defined "long" w/ regards to some of these issues.









I mean, seriously, my kid did not wash his hair but a couple of times over the course of a year. We didn't just say "yes" a day/week/month or two....we've done it for years--with both kids. And with stuff like the hair washing we totally stopped asking and making ANY kind of issue about it. (And, believe me, internally I was really trying to keep my "mama-ego" in check!







)

So, I'm thinking that if you're talking about having struggles that lasted from age 2 to age 7 (and currently, if I'm reading correctly) that we're talking about different approaches. Especially if the child has felt coerced or controlled previously, I do believe it takes longer to see a "balancing."


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Maybe I should've defined "long" w/ regards to some of these issues.









I mean, seriously, my kid did not wash his hair but a couple of times over the course of a year. We didn't just say "yes" a day/week/month or two....we've done it for years--with both kids. And with stuff like the hair washing we totally stopped asking and making ANY kind of issue about it. (And, believe me, internally I was really trying to keep my "mama-ego" in check!







)

So, I'm thinking that if you're talking about having struggles that lasted from age 2 to age 7 (and currently, if I'm reading correctly) that we're talking about different approaches. Especially if the child has felt coerced or controlled previously, I do believe it takes longer to see a "balancing."


I too stopped asking him for looooong periods of time. Long. For nearly 2 years (from around 3 until 5 YO) I stopped asking him to try to dress himself, and helped him every time he wanted/needed it. Did it make him dress himself? Nope. He didn`t start doing that until he was 7.
Same with several other things. (He had loooong hair from age 3 until age 8. He would. not. brush. it. Never. He cut his hair 6 months ago. I haven`t asked him to brush it once since he cut it. Not once. And he NEVER does. He hasn`t brushed his hair in six months. At all. And I can pretty much garantee you that if you ask me again in 12 months, he still hasn`t. He just won`t. To him, it`s like torture. He doesn`t fight me to be a pain, but because he would rather fight me every day of his life than have his hair brushed/take a bath/whatever.

I know people don`t mean to, but always hearing that "if your child didn`t respond to X approach, you must have done it too long, to short, not gentle enough, not the same way I did etc" gets kinda old.







The reality is that some children really won`t budge on some things. Sometimes the thing they really, really won`t do, is so important to them that they WILL fight you every. single. time.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Sorry! I wasn't trying to be rude or make you feel bad. I guess I just don't understand...if the kid isn't going to do x, and the parent stops making it a requirement or even asking, how is there still "a fight?"

I think the example of your son not dressing himself until age 7 is the perfect example. It's just not something he was going to do before he was ready--I think that's how most kids are. I think we can beat our heads against that wall over and over again--coercing, controlling, threatening, forcing, whatever it takes to make the kid comply b/c the alternative is worse. Or we can let it go, accept that the kid isn't ready/willing/etc. and take all the adversarial stuff out of the equation.

I mean, really, you can't "make" anyone do anything. Either the kid wants to do it or she doesn't.

We can often make them get to the point where doing the thing is easier than how sorry we make them for not doing it, but with persistent, tenacious personalities I think it gets that much harder.

So, yeah, I think if the kid isn't ready to do x, damaging the attachment with fighting and resentment and the outcome is gonna be same, letting go of the fighting seems like a good place to start.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this doesn't help but I'll throw it out just in case. I have a spirited kid who fights stuff . . . unless I let her do it her way. Which might not be relevant in your case. Do you give her the toothbrush and toothpaste and let her do it without overseeing it or telling her how? At first I'd try to teach dd to brush her teeth and then try to get her to do it my way, and there were lots of fights. But when I backed off and said, "Here's the toothbrush, here's the toothpaste, go for it." And she seemed young to do it herself her own way, and I have no idea how specifically she does it except that the dentist gave her a little timer to show her how long to do it, but I backed off and she hasn't had any cavities or anything. I don't know if it would help for any specific issue, but I find giving my dd autonomy helps a lot in these situations, because this kind of power struggle is often a cry for autonomy.

The second thing is that my dd argues and negotiates about every single thing too. We have changed the way we look at this from "arguing" to "problem solving." My dh said to her one time, "My but you're the problem solver" and she changed from trying to get her way to trying to solve the problem, ie find a solution we were all happy with. So that is how we approach it now. Instead of saying "No you can't do that" we say, "What we need is for X to happen and for Y to happen. I don't know how those things will happen if you do that. Do you have any ideas?" And then she tries to find a way to do what she wants and accomplish X and Y. If she finds a way to get her needs met and ours, then great. It's not a huge shift if you can get your dd to do it.

Finally, as for begging for stuff at the store, we handled that by giving dd an allowance. A small allowance, but then she could bring her money to the store and buy something if she had money for it. If she asked for something, I'd ask her how much money she had, and if she had enough she'd buy it, and if not I'd say, "Well maybe you can get that after you get your allowance." Also, suggesting she keep a list of things she wants, so instead of continually telling her she can't have things, I can say, "We'll have to put that on the list of things you want." And then if she had allowance money, she could look at that list, and we'd look at it before her birthday as well and passed info off if relatives asked what she wanted for Christmas.

There are specific things for just part of your problem, but my older dd is spirited and a real handful and we had a lot of these exact problems when she was your dd's age. I'm hoping that maybe at least a couple of things that worked for her might work for your dd. She's 8 now and, while still a handful, much easier to work with. She just understands things better. My younger one is really easy going comparatively.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
...

I think the example of your son not dressing himself until age 7 is the perfect example. It's just not something he was going to do before he was ready--I think that's how most kids are. I think we can beat our heads against that wall over and over again--coercing, controlling, threatening, forcing, whatever it takes to make the kid comply b/c the alternative is worse. Or we can let it go, accept that the kid isn't ready/willing/etc. and take all the adversarial stuff out of the equation.

I mean, really, you can't "make" anyone do anything. Either the kid wants to do it or she doesn't.

...

Not to take the thread off-course, but I think this is a very important point to remember as our kids get older. I was raised in a "do-it-or-else" type of environment. Not abusive, but very strict. As a result, I have very high and sometimes unreasonable expectations of my toddler and if not for reading this forum would not really have had this concept in my head as we went through eating issues with solid foods, potty training, bathing, toothbrushing, sleep issues, etc. I would have been INSANE when he didn't eat solids at 15 months. When he still wasn't walking at his first birthday. When he wasn't holding his own bottle/using a sippy cup at 12 months. When he couldn't identify colors or count or sing the alphabet.... Whatever.

So what if a 7-year-old wants help getting dressed? Yeah, it's not particularly common, as it would be for a 2-year-old to want/need help, but as we all read here daily, every kid develops at a different pace and hits different milestones in their own time. As long as it's not unhealthy or dangerous, and there aren't SO many out of the ordinary that they become red flags to a potential developmental issue, a few little quirks shouldn't be huge problems.

Thank you for the reminder that there will always be something like that, b/c the kids will always be developing, til they end up adults.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Sorry! I wasn't trying to be rude or make you feel bad. I guess I just don't understand...if the kid isn't going to do x, and the parent stops making it a requirement or even asking, how is there still "a fight?"

Because, in the OP's case, at least, she said everything HAS to be a fight. If she stops requiring it, her daughter will tell her to make her do it anyway!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
...letting go of the fighting seems like a good place to start.

Again, for whatever reasons, the OP's daughter thrives on arguments. So she can't really let "go of the fighting", because it won't work. She's just said she'll find something else to argue about.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I can't imagine this child relishes the physical force the OP posted about and the locking in her bedroom for time-outs. I just can't believe that's what this kid wants.

Perhaps her adversarial nature is a result of her biology and/or environment. How much nicer, though, would it be for this mama and child to debate the merits of paper v. plastic at the grocery store or wind v. solar than to debate how, when, and where the child is going to eat, sleep, etc?

There's a great article on Natural Child about how children really react to control: http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/thomas_gordon.html. The strong-willed child seems to have a very different reaction to control. Believe me, I know I tried the "just walk away, they will eventually follow," method w/ my first and it reached the most frenzied, lengthy, nightmarish proportions imaginable. "Sticking with" controlling, coercive, punitive methods with strong-willed people does not usually go well. Partnering with these kids is going to have a much better long term result. And if the parent can't partner with the kid, how does the kid know how to be a partner to the parent?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I can't imagine this child relishes the physical force the OP posted about and the locking in her bedroom for time-outs. I just can't believe that's what this kid wants.

Perhaps her adversarial nature is a result of her biology and/or environment. How much nicer, though, would it be for this mama and child to debate the merits of paper v. plastic at the grocery store or wind v. solar than to debate how, when, and where the child is going to eat, sleep, etc?

There's a great article on Natural Child about how children really react to control: http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/thomas_gordon.html. The strong-willed child seems to have a very different reaction to control. Believe me, I know I tried the "just walk away, they will eventually follow," method w/ my first and it reached the most frenzied, lengthy, nightmarish proportions imaginable. "Sticking with" controlling, coercive, punitive methods with strong-willed people does not usually go well. Partnering with these kids is going to have a much better long term result. And if the parent can't partner with the kid, how does the kid know how to be a partner to the parent?

She obviously doesn't want to be in time-out! She does, however, enjoy playing time-out-not-in-time-out-time-out-not-in-time-out game if I ask her to stay somewhere but do not somehow physically hold her there or lock the door.

She does not stay in time out unless restrained. Every couple weeks I think I must not lock her in time out ever, and ask her to sit alone and she will because everyone else's child does it. Everyone. There is no other child on the planet that does not respond to time-ins, time-outs, compromise, or anything, so she cannot be that special.

Right? RIGHT? RIGHT? It has to work, right?

But then it doesn't. And again, I'm broken-hearted.

"unless I let her do it her way"

No, because she doesn't want to do it her way. She wants to argue with me. I can't emphasize this enough... it's the argument. I know you all think, "Well, your family must be seriously screwed up because there aren't people on this earth who like to pick fights."

Just makes me think this forum isn't for me. Because ever since she could talk, she showed signs of wanting me to refuse. "Say no!" It isn't just "no" though. Like, if I leave her alone, she will follow me, "Say you're gonna do it the hard way! Do it the silly way! Say you'll make me! Say this, say that, fight with me, fight, fight!"

I have tried to do pretend games ("Let's be mommy kitty and baby kitty and mommy kitty will...") thinking she just wanted creative engagement.

FAIL. ("Mommy kitty, tell me I'm doing it wrong." "But you're doing it right... just keep--" "NO! Tell me I'm wrong!" "Well do it wrong, then." "I *am* doing it wrong." "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Stay here, baby kitty, mommy kitty is getting her special grape juice.")

Nope. Really, the challenging is what she wants. She loves banging her head against the wall.

I'm the wall.

Quote:

I mean, seriously, my kid did not wash his hair but a couple of times over the course of a year. We didn't just say "yes" a day/week/month or two....we've done it for years--with both kids. And with stuff like the hair washing we totally stopped asking and making ANY kind of issue about it. (And, believe me, internally I was really trying to keep my "mama-ego" in check! )
Wow. I think that's kind of gross (or perhaps he never smeared grease from his evening meal in it?), and I'm really concerned about the teeth in that situation. Losing rotting baby teeth is not a small issue.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh, and compromise... only if it's an argument.

I really think some of you are underestimating some people's need to argue for the sake of argument. LOL. It's not about the thing itself. She would argue about cake if she could. "Not THAT strawberry cake. Make the strawberries go the other way." Even if it's the first sweet in a month.

Yes. Yes she will.

DH does it too. And if I let it go, they keep going. On and on and on and on and on and on, desperately seeking the argument.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Wow. I think that's kind of gross (or perhaps he never smeared grease from his evening meal in it?), and I'm really concerned about the teeth in that situation. Losing rotting baby teeth is not a small issue.

Ouch.

No. He never smeared grease in his air.

Believe me, it wasn't my choice. But he didn't have to have someone overpower his body and his wishes, so that was far better than the "gross" for me.

He never had rotting baby teeth. He loves to go to the dentist where they oooh and ahhh over his cavity free baby and adult teeth.

Allowing kids to make their own choices does not necessarily result in a direct path to catastrophe.

Good luck with your situation.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Ouch.

No. He never smeared grease in his air.

Believe me, it wasn't my choice. But he didn't have to have someone overpower his body and his wishes, so that was far better than the "gross" for me.

He never had rotting baby teeth. He loves to go to the dentist where they oooh and ahhh over his cavity free baby and adult teeth.

Allowing kids to make their own choices does not necessarily result in a direct path to catastrophe.

Good luck with your situation.

I am really glad your child has good teeth. I had great teeth as a child, too. My children both, from an early age, enjoyed the whole "lets put dinner on my head" thing, and even at three, my daughter will all too often put her hand in her hair after eating something with meat. And it does go rancid if I leave it.

I don't believe in the individual's sacrosanct right over his or her body, not for adults or children (and I think it ends in philosophical dead ends too often), so I think we have fundamental differences of philosophy that would not really allow us to come to an agreement. I think individuals have to sometimes compromise for the group.







That means me for my kids, and at times, my kids for me, and at times, all of us for everyone else (viz. eating bread for dinner because we just could not shop without ruining the experience for the rest of the shoppers... sucks, but that's life.)


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Oh, and compromise... only if it's an argument.

I really think some of you are underestimating some people's need to argue for the sake of argument. LOL. It's not about the thing itself. She would argue about cake if she could. "Not THAT strawberry cake. Make the strawberries go the other way." Even if it's the first sweet in a month.

Yes. Yes she will.

DH does it too. And if I let it go, they keep going. On and on and on and on and on and on, desperately seeking the argument.

so then is your daughter simply modeling/ following/ copying/ trying to be like her dad? Is her dad exactly like this, does he engage with you in the same exact way- and this is how she thinks one should act?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I have a very argumentative kid, and the things that work are, as I said, to set her up to use her negotiation powers to solve problems, to give her autonomy wherever possible, and to DISENGAGE. She doesn't like the way the strawberries are on the pie? "This is what we have. Eat it or don't eat it, it's up to you." End of discussion. If she has a tantrum, that's fine, kids sometimes do. They learn this concept of "there are things I can't change in the world no matter how angry I get about it" through tantrums. No matter how much she goes on, don't engage her in her argument. I've said very specifically to my dd, "I am not going to argue with you." Then she tries to argue about whether I'll argue. And I don't get into it. I have said "I am not going to argue" 50 times in a row without changing the words I use. She will eventually give up if you consistently don't engage. But it takes a while.

The biggest problem you have is that it sounds like your dh is probably continually engaging her since he's the same way. It's hard to get past if it's always being fed.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
(viz. eating bread for dinner because we just could not shop without ruining the experience for the rest of the shoppers... sucks, but that's life.)











Seriously? You would _seriously_ do that? Please tell me you are being hyperbolic for the sake of good drama.

Do you think people care that much about a screaming kid that it ruins their experience at the _supermarket_? Grocery shopping just ain't that sacrosanct. A movie? Yes. A play? Yes. A day at the spa? Definitely. A gym workout? Maybe (for me absolutely, but that's MY hang up!). Grocery shopping? not so much.

I definitely think you are right. I think many of us have NO clue what it must be like to be in the military circle, because I have no concept of how it makes life more difficult for a child to just be a child or for a mom to let her kids be kids. I _really_ do want to understand though. Really really. That's why I keep asking clarifying questions and I can't stop thinking of you, like where are you? Maybe I have friends there who would reach out and help you? Maybe I could hook you up with a moms group there? I'm trying to wrap my head around it because your words are so powerful.

It must be so frustrating, but I really can't understand why you feel so worried about upsetting other people with the tantrums. It's not your fault she's three and half and if you try to control the tantrums and arguments rather than allow them to happen and face them with empathy and hugs but remain firm in your principles, I am sure they will fade by the time she's 5. If you face them with resistance and avoidance at all costs (even to the extent of eating bread for dinner) they will never have a chance to run their course and you may wind up with a very combative child and teen. Is there some sanction you and/or your husband will be given for bringing your imperfectly (yet age appropriate) behaved toddler out in public? Is there a set of behavioral codes for adults that even the under fives must adhere to that if you can't MAKE your kids follow your husband will be penalized?

Because if that is the case I think it's time for me to start a letter writing campaign to have that changed. No mother should have to live with the pressure of feeling that the safety and well being of her family is in danger due to the normal antics of a toddler. That is unfair on both mother and child. Is that what you are saying? Or am I not reading it right? I mean you military families have enough stress to deal with what with the thought of your sole source of income going off to dangerous places and having to live apart for months and years at a time. You should at the very least be entitled to raise your children in a way that allows them to be children. If I understand you correctly (and my track record has not been very good so far







) I seethe on your behalf and will begin to immediately ask for change, and get people writing and talking.

As for the "tell me I'm doing it wrong." I am stumped. I have to admit that's unusual. I hope that as she grows older and more cognizant she will out grow that. I think if my kid were doing that I would meet every request for being told he was doing it wrong with a big hug and reaffirming statement. "I can't do that for you, because you are doing it right and even if you weren't I love you too much to not let you try to do it your way." and as he continued just keep hugging and saying "I love you too much for that." And if it went into meltdown maybe try reflecting "Benjamin mad _mad_ _*mad*_,







Benjamin _really_ mad, Benjamin really want mommy to tell him wrong/bad. Benjamin want be wrong, Benjamin want fight. Mommy no want fight. Mommy love Benjamin. Mommy no think Benjamin wrong. Mommy think Benjamin wonderful. Mommy think Benjamin smart."







And keep hugging.

And then just hope he out grew it?







That's just my totally shot in the dark Hail Mary suggestion for you.

(ETA: have you tried toddlerese with her?)

I hope she does soon. FWIW, from Four to Five they really become so much more _human_. They still have meltdowns but they can tell you so much more about what drives them that it becomes easier and easier to manage the meltdowns.

Last night for the second night in a month DS went to bed (not just crashed from exhaustion), without any cries for more stories and more silliness. Just two stories and a big kiss and and an I love you...and that was it. It's starting to get better.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I have a very argumentative kid, and the things that work are, as I said, to set her up to use her negotiation powers to solve problems, to give her autonomy wherever possible, and to DISENGAGE. She doesn't like the way the strawberries are on the pie? "This is what we have. Eat it or don't eat it, it's up to you." End of discussion. *If she has a tantrum, that's fine, kids sometimes do.* They learn this concept of "there are things I can't change in the world no matter how angry I get about it" through tantrums. No matter how much she goes on, don't engage her in her argument. I've said very specifically to my dd, "I am not going to argue with you." Then she tries to argue about whether I'll argue. And I don't get into it. *I have said "I am not going to argue" 50 times in a row without changing the words I use.* She will eventually give up if you consistently don't engage. But it takes a while.

The biggest problem you have is that it sounds like your dh is probably continually engaging her since he's the same way. *It's hard to get past if it's always being fed.*









Especially the bolded parts.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Okay, mystery solved.

I may be pregnant. Last time I was pregnant I got separated from my husband.

Quote:

She doesn't like the way the strawberries are on the pie? "This is what we have. Eat it or don't eat it, it's up to you." End of discussion.
We do that. My issue is that some things cannot be "disengaged". As in:

"You don't like being relatively quiet while your sister is napping? Um... um... okay. Uh..."

"You don't want to put on your harness while we drive to pick up your dad from a month at training at a minute's notice? Uh. You can stay, well, no you can't, uh, you can, uh..."

"You don't want to brush your teeth even though your dad's family has bad teeth and that lady gave you a lollypop at the park? Um. Okay. Your teeth will rot in your head, but whatever."

"You don't want to put the glass jar that you swiped from the shelf that we passed too close to down? Fine, you can pay for... er, I guess that would be me."

You know?

As you can see I also like to argue







but my point is, I'm talking non-negotiables here.

Not about the dress she wears.

And as for the cake, yes, I can disengage but she will follow me with it: "No, I do want cake." "Fine, eat this one." "Not this one." "We don't have another one." "Get another one." "No." "Why?" "This is not up for discussion." "Why?" "I'm tired." "Why?" "I don't want to answer that question." "ANSWER IT! Please! I said please!" "I'm sorry, I said I wasn't discussing it, and you didn't respect that. If you can't respect that, you need to leave."

"No! Why? Where? In time out?"

"Just... please stop."

"Stop what."

"Please stop talking."

"Talking about what?"

Oh my God. Tell me your kids do this every other day. Tell me. She is just inexhaustible!

See... I don't know how to explain because she's just three and like that. Really. I try to avoid the argument but she follows me with it!

It seems SOOOO simple to say, tell her the answer, if she doesn't agree, make her do it, and if she hurts someone, ask her to sit alone or stay with me (but use no physical force).

In reality, those are not options for us.

She doesn't want an answer and she won't stay without physical restraint.

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so then is your daughter simply modeling/ following/ copying/ trying to be like her dad? Is her dad exactly like this, does he engage with you in the same exact way- and this is how she thinks one should act?
She imitates both of us but this started when he'd been away for a year. I think part of it is modeling but a large degree is inborn. They just get a high from it. Half his brothers and sisters are like that, half are not.









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Seriously? You would seriously do that? Please tell me you are being hyperbolic for the sake of good drama.
Not only that, but a lot of people on MDC recommend leaving the supermarket due to tantrums.

Of course, they also recommend going back in. But that's not always an option, is it?

Everyone I know says you leave the supermarket during a tantrum like that. I don't know a single person IRL who thinks it's acceptable to shop with a toddler screaming at the top of her lungs. Oh, it happens, but if it doesn't end? Yeah, you leave.

(Oh, and we're trying time-outs in a chair that is not isolated and that she stays on herself. It's been five returns to the chair and since it's bedtime, now she says she doesn't want to leave the chair since she doesn't want to go to bed.







She's in time-out because she didn't stop singing to let her sister at least fall asleep, even though I tried to do it the gentle way. I met a woman today whose child just stays in the chair. "She likes time out," she said. "It helps her calm down.")

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The biggest problem you have is that it sounds like your dh is probably continually engaging her since he's the same way. It's hard to get past if it's always being fed.
Well, no, with him and me, I tell him to stop or I'm leaving. With him and her, he's not around that much, but when he is, he is a taskmaster and very good at involving her in his tasks, distracting her. For some reason she doesn't like to do that with me, probably because it's not as novel. In terms of arguments, I don't let them get into escalating arguments (they both go into time-out! LOL!) and I take care of it often before it gets to that because he does feed it and I don't want that.

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Is there a set of behavioral codes for adults that even the under fives must adhere to that if you can't MAKE your kids follow your husband will be penalized?
The problem is this. Most families share a car. That is the beginning of many, many issues with kids. You see, the husband cannot take the car unless his wife doesn't need it until he comes back (it can be one or two or more miles away--walkable in the summer, but tough). So, in reality, the wife needs to drive him. She can't leave the kids, and then when he needs to come home to get something, he has no car.

Can he take a taxi? Yes, but these are military salaries and if he'd taken taxis last month, it would have eaten up about half our food budget.

So I drive him.

Luckily we just got our second car which he fixed up himself. I'm so proud of him. We have high, high hopes for that car, LOL! He will be MUCH more independent.

Even so, if for any reason he can't leave and he needs something (which happens after they get their weapons), I need to get it for him. Single soldiers live right next to their work so they can go home to get stuff with their weapons. Not married ones.

There is really not a lot that can be done. When he signed up we signed a form saying we as the family accepted the hardship. It's not legal so much as informational. And we knew it. In this economy, for us non-profit social workers to be living in a three-bedroom apartment overseas with health and life insurance, enough to live on, two weeks of vacation a year, plus education benefits that extend to our kids, frankly, we aren't complaining, not one bit.

I think that I have presented an overly negative picture thanks to undetected pregnancy hormones... she really does argue like that but it is in a genuinely playful way. And it's not all day. That WAS an exaggeration. Sorry.







It's more like... two or three key times.

But as I said the games and 1, 2, 3 that I'd moved to use with her sissy and have now re-employed with her are definitely helping.

If we can get the time-outs on, we will be really there.

Thanks again.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Okay, mystery solved.

I may be pregnant.

When I am pregnant, like now, my kids always overwhelm me. I just told my husband last night that I no longer enjoy being around them, they tire me, they bore me, they depress me and they can even sometimes make me feel selfish and resentful. His response was that "I'll pass; it always does."

It's the hormones, I guess. Mingled with complete exhaustion and a feeling of sickness all day long.

Many hugs to you, EM.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
When I am pregnant, like now, my kids always overwhelm me. I just told my husband last night that I no longer enjoy being around them, they tire me, they bore me, they depress me and they can even sometimes make me feel selfish and resentful. His response was that "I'll pass; it always does."

It's the hormones, I guess. Mingled with complete exhaustion and a feeling of sickness all day long.

Many hugs to you, EM.

I also posted about divorcing my husband on another thread.

Only to realize three weeks later that actually... he didn't say divorce... I read it into his mail...

















Even if baby is not sticky, at least I know where this is all coming from.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
My issue is that some things cannot be "disengaged". As in:

"You don't want to put on your harness while we drive to pick up your dad from a month at training at a minute's notice? Uh. You can stay, well, no you can't, uh, you can, uh..."

This type of verbal back and forth _can_ be disengaged. I just announce that I am done, put on the stone face and stop responding. If it's non-negotiable, then I don't negotiate it. And I don't get drawn into an argument about not negotiating it. I just _do_ it.

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Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I have a very argumentative kid, and the things that work are, as I said, to set her up to use her negotiation powers to solve problems, to give her autonomy wherever possible, and to DISENGAGE.

ITA the disengaging is absolutely the most important part.

I find that humor helps too...and also _really_ having made up your mind down to your core that you will not take the arguing/remarks personally so they really can just bounce off you.

Our DS2 is 4.5. He is very argumentative and stubborn. So was DS1. I learned how not to get mentally sucked into it by my experiences with DS1. I remember when DS1 was three, he seemed like this _huge_ overwhelming person, because we were head to head all day long, ever day and it wore me out. After I changed my approach (thanks to that book ) it didn't get to me anymore and it stopped working for him...so with DS2, I have never been sucked into it. But it is in his nature to want a combative argument over almost anything he can find to argue about. On a regular basis this child gets mad at me and tries to argue over the _weather._ Seriously ! I chuckle and say that I'm still waiting, but nobody has put me in charge of the weather yet.

BTW he also tells me when he's mad that he wants to put me in the garbage and throw me away. But hey, he also calls his brother a poop head. How seriously can I really take it ? He is four. He will grow out of it. He will give it up sooner if he can't get a response from me over it.

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Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Not only that, but a lot of people on MDC recommend leaving the supermarket due to tantrums.

Of course, they also recommend going back in. But that's not always an option, is it?

Everyone I know says you leave the supermarket during a tantrum like that. I don't know a single person IRL who thinks it's acceptable to shop with a toddler screaming at the top of her lungs. Oh, it happens, but if it doesn't end? Yeah, you leave.

Well, I am one person who does not leave. I have never left a store with my shopping unfinished due to a tantrum. (please be aware I am not talking about an unhappy infant, but an older child.) When I know it is just a tantrum (not something actually wrong, and yes, I can tell) I will finish my shopping if both kids scream until they pass out and everyone's ears are bleeding. Why ? Because I made up my mind I would never, _never_ allow a child to be successful in getting me off course in getting groceries with a tantrum. A restaurant, a movie, a party, yes, I would be out of there. But not groceries ... ever. I _do_ take steps to minimize the chance of a big tantrum - try to keep the list short by going more frequently, not go for groceries after a long day or three other errands or during his afternoon grumpy time - but there is only so much I can do to prevent them, and if they happen anyway, it's very important to me that a tantrum is not a method that works for him to get us out of the store.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
We stopped making him brush his teeth...and he stopped for a long time when he was 3 or 4. Now he brushes and flosses on his own, his teeth have never had a cavity, he ADORES the dentist and she raves about how lovely his teeth are.

I personally could not and would not make this choice. If it works for someone else, great but IMO there is nothing wrong with deciding that toothbrushing is non-negotiable. Our DS1 needed three fillings and a crown at age 2, and by age 6 had four more fillings in spite of 3x daily brushing, xylitol, drinking only water between meals and no candy or starchy/sticky foods between meals. Our DS2 has had his teeth brushed at least 2x daily since the emergence of his first tooth, and still has had four fillings by age four. I am not willing to say "they are his teeth" and leave their care up to a child. They both had their teeth brushed by whatever method necessary until they quit fighting it. Their really are very few things I take this firm of a stance on but IMO it's not unreasonable. I also have spirited, headstrong kids. Our attachment is well enough established that it's not going to fall apart over me enforcing a small number of things that I decide are too important to let go.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

huh. I may have a high tolerance for tantrums, but I do not leave. I find I get much better service and that people let me jump long lines when I have a screaming toddler in a store or a family-friendly restaurant. Let them screm, let the other adults roll their eyes. No way am I going to let my child's tantrums stop me from getting food for the family. I have no qualms with that.

Quote:

"You don't like being relatively quiet while your sister is napping? Um... um... okay. Uh..."

"You don't want to put on your harness while we drive to pick up your dad from a month at training at a minute's notice? Uh. You can stay, well, no you can't, uh, you can, uh..."

"You don't want to brush your teeth even though your dad's family has bad teeth and that lady gave you a lollypop at the park? Um. Okay. Your teeth will rot in your head, but whatever."

"You don't want to put the glass jar that you swiped from the shelf that we passed too close to down? Fine, you can pay for... er, I guess that would be me."

You know?

As you can see I also like to argue but my point is, I'm talking non-negotiables here.
Yeah but then in _*those*_ instances _don't_ negotiate. Don't argue. Take away, restrain, and do. Just don't put them on the same plain as eating dinner, ya know?

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And as for the cake, yes, I can disengage but she will follow me with it: "No, I do want cake." "Fine, eat this one." "Not this one." "We don't have another one." "Get another one." *"No."* "Why?" "This is not up for discussion." "Why?" "I'm tired." "Why?" "I don't want to answer that question." "ANSWER IT! Please! I said please!" "I'm sorry, I said I wasn't discussing it, and you didn't respect that. If you can't respect that, you need to leave."

"No! Why? Where? In time out?"

"Just... please stop."

"Stop what."

"Please stop talking."

"Talking about what?"

Oh my God. Tell me your kids do this every other day. Tell me. She is just inexhaustible!
That's a perfect example of what I mean by engaging her. Where you said "no" you changed everything. You started answering why and opening the road to negotiation. So next time instead of changing the answer for each of her new tactics just repeat "I am sorry you feel that way, this is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any"

"No, I do want cake."

"I am sorry you feel that way, this is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any"

"Not this one."

"I am sorry you feel that way, this is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any"

"Get another one."

"This is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any"

Why?

"this is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any"

See...now where is she going to go? if you just repeat verbatim the same thing she will eventually run out of steam or get bored. If you change it,you feed into it.

No need to escalate to time-outs (which don't seem to be working, eh?) because no matter *what* she comes back with you just say verbatum with a smle and innocent eyes









"This is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any"

Try just repeating the same phrase and be even more stubborn than she is. Wear her down.

I do this with out of control teens and adults as well, and there is nothing like it to shut down a combative personality. They have nowhere to go. You cannot get anywhere with someone who refuses to hear you and refuses to engage.

This is the cake we have, if you don't like it don't have any.









This is the story we are reading. If you don't like it, I won't read one.









I am going to brush your teeth now, get ready.









I am going to put your harness on now, get ready.









Matter of fact, never waivering never engaging never responding. Try it. What's the worst that could happen?

As for disrespecting the younger one's right to sleep, I don't know. It's enough to make me want to pull my hair out. I just thank god he's old enough it isn't every night of screaming. That would make me very frowny.









I am glad your dh has his own car now...I hope that helps you get a much needed rest from interrupting DDs and your days to play Girl Friday to your man. Goodness sake, you would think they could provide him a locker nearer to the training center, or at least a frequent shuttle service for the married staff to the family housing area. It's not that much to ask!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Oh and congrats on the pregnancy. Hopefully you will feel better in the next trimester? and I hope you don't feel too sick this time!


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
I do this with out of control teens and adults as well, and there is nothing like it to shut down a combative personality. They have nowhere to go. You cannot get anywhere with someone who refuses to hear you and refuses to engage.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
Matter of fact, never waivering never engaging never responding. Try it. What's the worst that could happen?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

See...now where is she going to go? if you just repeat verbatim the same thing she will eventually run out of steam or get bored. If you change it,you feed into it.
She actually just continues.

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No need to escalate to time-outs (which don't seem to be working, eh?) because no matter *what* she comes back with you just say verbatum with a smle and innocent eyes








Time-outs are necessary to get her away from the stimulus as a short-term solution, though. That's the issue. They are not working long-term but for lack of a better word when I ask her to leave and stay somewhere she is not hurting / disturbing another person, sometimes they are necessary.

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Try just repeating the same phrase and be even more stubborn than she is. Wear her down.

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eah but then in those instances don't negotiate. Don't argue. Take away, restrain, and do. Just don't put them on the same plain as eating dinner, ya know?

Quote:

This is the story we are reading. If you don't like it, I won't read one.









I am going to brush your teeth now, get ready.









I am going to put your harness on now, get ready.








Right. I think we are finally seeing eye-to-eye because that was what I *was* doing before, and as I mentioned, I kind of stopped because my second daughter moved closer to this stage, so for some reason mentally I graduated DD1. But there's really no gentle way around it, yk? I mean, there may be non-violent and non-combative, but totally respectful?

I feel in that respect, she's got me cornered.

I mean, weren't you the one saying to answer her questions thoughtfully? We are not getting into battles about which puzzle to do, or other negotiable items. We are generally arguing over non-negotiables, and when it is negotiable, yes I disengage but that brings me back to the point of whether or not there is a better way.

Quote:

As for disrespecting the younger one's right to sleep, I don't know. It's enough to make me want to pull my hair out. I just thank god he's old enough it isn't every night of screaming. That would make me very frowny.








Yeah. It's the source of MANY of my problems, because I feel very helpless at that point. If you can imagine having an 18-month-old or an 11-month-old and a newborn... then maybe you can imagine what psychosis is like. (I haven't been there, but I know people who have. And I believe their descriptions of the baby stage range from "I don't want to think about it" to "traumatic" to "hell".)

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I am glad your dh has his own car now...I hope that helps you get a much needed rest from interrupting DDs and your days to play Girl Friday to your man. Goodness sake, you would think they could provide him a locker nearer to the training center, or at least a frequent shuttle service for the married staff to the family housing area. It's not that much to ask!
Now does not mean, when the next shuttle gets back. It means NOW. It's the army, after all. And they do have lockers. But they have to sign their weapons in to a sergeant and their sergeants have to break, too. Those sergeants work 24/7. Their job has got to be the poopiest in the world, I kid you not. I'd rather be a waitress than a sergeant.

The military is the military. If I could change anything about it, it would be paternity and maternity leave and treatment for PTSD soldiers, not the shuttle schedule. I mean I see your point, of course but hey, that is life.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
...IMO there is nothing wrong with deciding that toothbrushing is non-negotiable.

me either. Despite his dad and I both having very strong teeth, and his having brushed his teeth 3X daily and hardly ever having sweets, he has wound up with four pretty major cavaties. He gets his teeth brushed like or not. It is not a task I will entrust him with just yet, but he does get to do it on his own first and then I "finish" for him.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
She actually just continues.

So...continue _with_ her...be determined to have the last word, and remain calm.

Quote:

Time-outs are necessary to get her away from the stimulus as a short-term solution, though. That's the issue. They are not working long-term but for lack of a better word when I ask her to leave and stay somewhere she is not hurting / disturbing another person, sometimes they are necessary.

So this is not really a time-out per se. It's a need for removal to a new space. A neutral space where you can talk calmly...so maybe change the name to a "chill-out" and it won't feel so punitive to her...semantics can be EVERYTHING at that age.

Quote:

Right. I think we are finally seeing eye-to-eye because that was what I *was* doing before, and as I mentioned, I kind of stopped because my second daughter moved closer to this stage, so for some reason mentally I graduated DD1. But there's really no gentle way around it, yk? I mean, there may be non-violent and non-combative, but totally respectful?

I feel in that respect, she's got me cornered.
You are not be disrespectful by choosing not to engage and simply repeating the truth. You are just not engaging. Disrepsectful is telling her that she is being annoying, a jerk, a brat, deliberately defiant (not that you would do that, I'm just giving examples of disrespectful). I think you are taking the respectful thing too far. There also comes a time where you have to say as the mom "it is more respectful for me to force you into a car seat than allow you to die and since those are the only two options on our plate right now, I choose A." If that makes her angry or sad or frustrated she is perfectly allowed to feel and express that however she needs to, but it's happening (or not happening as the case may be)

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I mean, weren't you the one saying to answer her questions thoughtfully? We are not getting into battles about which puzzle to do, or other negotiable items. We are generally arguing over non-negotiables, and when it is negotiable, yes I disengage but that brings me back to the point of whether or not there is a better way.

I meant her silly questions that all kids ask (cause remember the example you gave was why does hot burn? or something like that), not in combative debate mode. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I mean the "why does the sun get hot?", questions, not the "why can't I let just let my teeth rot?" questions.

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Yeah. It's the source of MANY of my problems, because I feel very helpless at that point. If you can imagine having an 18-month-old or an 11-month-old and a newborn... then maybe you can imagine what psychosis is like. (I haven't been there, but I know people who have. And I believe their descriptions of the baby stage range from "I don't want to think about it" to "traumatic" to "hell".)
My friend just had her second when her first was only 13 months old. Some people say it is better because then you get through the craziness and come out the otherside with two or six or eight or however many gorgeous healthy KIDS. I could never. I wasn't even willing to entertain the possibility of pregnancy until DS was a little over four and even then I was hoping for about six more months to be really really sure...we make plans and god laughs, eh? That really sucks.

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Now does not mean, when the next shuttle gets back. It means NOW. It's the army, after all. And they do have lockers. But they have to sign their weapons in to a sergeant and their sergeants have to break, too. Those sergeants work 24/7. Their job has got to be the poopiest in the world, I kid you not. I'd rather be a waitress than a sergeant.
I don't really follow what this means. But I will take your word for it that a shuttle system and storage of their supplies on hand would not work...too bad they can't come up with a better system than disrupting the lives of the spouses and families of the soldiers.

but hey, the new car should help, right?

ETA: I just re-read this part

Quote:

We are generally arguing over non-negotiables, and when it is negotiable, yes I disengage but that brings me back to the point of whether or not there is a better way.
I am doing a







here. When it IS negotiable you DISENGAGE? I don't follow. Wouldn't those be the moments to engage and have a fun debate and see where it takes her brain? I am confused. Can you explain?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Have you tried sending your dd outside when she is being disruptive to the baby? We were living with my parents for a while and my mom was working from home so I had to have dd leave the house when she was having a fit because leaving her inside to scream about not getting her way meant that we risked being kicked out of the house and homeless. I was shocked by how quickly she pulled herself under control and decided that she was fine with what I told her to stop or start doing. Even if it turns out that she does like that option it is good that she can find a place to be loud or play on her own while the baby is outside.

If you haven't looked into bribery or snacking on something in the car then I think you should do that at least for the short term. I pack cold fruit loops, apples, crackers, etc... into a ziplock baggy and let have them once she is buckled in her carseat. I also talk up where we are going and what we are going to do there, even if it isn't all that fun and I find that this often helps. Having one or two days where we don't leave the house at all to do anything also helps when dd is in a stage of resisting leaving the house. A stern NOW also works often because dd knows that when I get stern I am no longer in the messing around mood (I rarely get stern though so that may be why).

Have you thought about putting the baby in car one or two days a week, or every two weeks, and pulling her out a little early to do something with just her. As a single mom I need some time once in a while to do things on my own without the pressure of work or my child so a day with a break for just me is really nice. I don't think that breaks are a horrible thing though, which it seems like you might from your previous post. I get overwhelmed with things from time to time and really need time to decompress and be myself (not my mama or work self but my actual self). My dd loved it when she was in preschool and we did a mama date, they brought us closer together and helped us keep the connection up even when things were difficult. I realize that you are shying away from taking her out of daycare at all, but giving up that half day really helped me and my dd and it may help you too.


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

If I may just jump in here-
My daughter just turned 4 last sunday. If I wasn't pregnant- I would have downed a bottle of champagne to celebrate the end of her 3s. It was HELL. ON her birthday she turned into a demon child. Most days I would just look at her in bewilderment cause I didn't know where my kid was. We were living in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language. My dh was away 2/3 weeks a month, and when at home was still working. We have literally moved 6 times in the past 18 months. And I still don't think most of it was the real cause of my dd's *cough* challenges. She is high maintenance, and very verbal. And I am a no-nonsense, hardly compassionate, raised in a spanking environment by a single (read amazingly controlling, beyond her limits) mom, so I never learned any kind of coping mechanisms.

Some of the things I learned in this past year have been, my child will mirror behaviors that I have. She's demanding? I'M demanding. She's wants it all her way? I want it all MY way. She won't let it go? I expect perfectionism (food, sleep, bodily habits, ways of respecting). You get my drift. She's intense? I'm intense. She needs to negotiate everything? I am always right. She once said to me after a particularly hairy struggle to use the pot "If you are right all the time, then I don't get to be right ever" and it's true. If I know what's best for her then I am teaching her that she doesn't know anything and that is def NOT what I want her to think!

Another thing is that because she is so smart, I expect her to be at a higher level of functioning. "what do you mean you won't put your shoes on? You must be purposely disobeying me! punish, punish, punsih!!!" She was a baby. She still is little child despite the many "I'm a BIG girl Momma! I can do it by MYSELF! NO!!! I BUCKLE THEN YOU DO YOUR PART WAAAAHAHAHAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"

A personal lesson that I learned is that there is a HUGE difference between punishment and discipline. AND that there is NO SUCH THING AS IT NEVER HAPPENING AGAIN. Whew! that was a BIG revelation! (what do you mean that when I told my dd at 10 months not to touch something, she wouldn't and now she will at 3???) No such thing as it miraculously never being a problem. I try to keep in perspective that the thousand and one times I say something, I will not get the satisfaction of a lesson learned until she is 35. Really! I will not judge myself as a mother until she is old! cause in the big picture, that is when this hell will be justified!

I have to tell her at least once a week that I am the boss, not she. And that I say what I mean, and I mean what I say! Even if it doesn't influence her at all, it helps me to reinforce my stance as a mother. I try to remember and say out loud that at 13 I WANT her to question, and to be strong, and even demanding. I want her to be master of her body, and mind and spirit. And that is how I am trying to look at things. And it helps when I am conscious.

The thing is is that your dd is not separate from you. She IS trying to stay close. She is still trying to have her place despite her younger sibling, and your challenging dh, and your list of priorities. And I have a feeling that she is very much like you. Strong willed, independent, success no matter how hard the struggle is. I deeply feel that by struggling in front of our children we teach them how to struggle. For me it's my rage. For you, something else. But the importance is not to give up, not on them, or yourself. (dhs are a diff matter LOL Mine makes an _excellent_ scapegoat!)

It's so hard momma! Even in best circumstances (I'm still waiting to test out having a maid







). I felt like a failure more in the past year then anytime of my life. And I think that is the crux of it. But however much I wanted to make her responsible for my life and misery, I couldn't. Parenting from the Inside Out was a helpful book. As well as http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Daughte.../dp/0553105736.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
Have you tried sending your dd outside when she is being disruptive to the baby?

Yes, but then I was afraid child protection would pick her up since after all she's only three and we live on the third floor in a neighborhood full of apartment blocks, so I secretly followed her to see where she went.

My words were, "If you can't respect your family, you need to leave."
She replied, "Okay!" and left...










She went and played with the neighbors (this was at eight p.m., I had to say forget bedtime, it's all part of my experiment to see what works with her) who have an 11 p.m. bedtime and wake later.

So that was a lesson learned. 

Quote:

So this is not really a time-out per se. It's a need for removal to a new space. A neutral space where you can talk calmly...so maybe change the name to a "chill-out" and it won't feel so punitive to her...semantics can be EVERYTHING at that age.
That's what a time-out is, though. Time-out is punishment to the child who doesn't like it, relaxation for the child who does. It's that simple.

Quote:

So...continue with her...be determined to have the last word, and remain calm.
Again... we are going in circles. Can I do that? Yes. Does it suck the life out of my days sometimes? Yes. Is that a neural pattern I want her to get into? No. Is it gentle? Not particularly.

Quote:

I am doing a here. When it IS negotiable you DISENGAGE? I don't follow. Wouldn't those be the moments to engage and have a fun debate and see where it takes her brain? I am confused. Can you explain?
I just let her win and focus on doing what needs to be done, such as, oh, showering. Talking to baby. I'm not going to debate the way the peanut-butter is spread. No. Just... no. She wants to but sorry. If you want to paint, if you want to speak politely, if you want to discuss, yes. Argue? No, I do that enough already in a day.

Quote:

She still is little child despite the many "I'm a BIG girl Momma! I can do it by MYSELF! NO!!! I BUCKLE THEN YOU DO YOUR PART WAAAAHAHAHAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"
This is true, but if you want to buckle, then freaking buckle, you know? Don't tell me you'll buckle then don't buckle then tell me no no you will, then you need help, then not that way.

I mean... I'm sorry, but as long as you think you are the center of the universe, disappointment is bound to follow, you know?

I understand your point, that they just aren't ready yet, and I appreciate that, and it is hard to remember (she is in 4t-5t clothes and looks like a four or five year old). I wouldn't say she's remarkably verbal or anything, though her pronunciation is above average for sure. She is far from the only three-year-old I know at her level.

I think for me, it's easy to deal with if I can reason with it or physically make it happen.

With her, it's neither and that is what makes three difficult. I have no desire to control her play, or every move, but there are times when I need to get stuff done for our family, even things that she wants, and then I get frustrated.

Quote:

Some people say it is better because then you get through the craziness and come out the otherside with two or six or eight or however many gorgeous healthy KIDS.
Sure, when they're older, which is why we had hoped to have our third closer to these two. If I am pregnant, these will be exactly two years apart, so it will be 4.5, 2, and newborn, or in high-school (because DD1 is October), Senior, Sophomore, 8th grade, then again Junior-Freshman, Senior-Sophomore. Which I think is great.

Doesn't mean it's not pure hell in the early years.

Oh, I know, some people STTN co-sleeping with their children who just calmly listen to them when they ask them to go to their quiet spot then they go and they just love the baby.

That is not us, and I can't even think about making it happen because it will just depress me.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

We are on day two of don't put her in time out where she can't come out and extra involvement from me.

Results: She's started hitting at least twice an hour and is now running around spitting at me. This may, however, be the result of the fact that I have no way to enforce bedtime so she's going on five hours' sleep. I suppose they are interconnected.

Either gentle discipline is a load of crap or I should just take them to CPS and quit. I'm so tired of failing at this.

Oh, and no lunch. Of course, because I spent my 30 minutes of lunch prep time (normally I have more but I decided to be involved with my kids... priority fail) putting her back in time out... and back... and back... and back... and back... and back...

She's not getting the message, people.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

Results: She's started hitting at least twice an hour and is now running around spitting at me. This may, however, be the result of the fact that I have no way to enforce bedtime so she's going on five hours' sleep. I suppose they are interconnected.>>>>

Absolutely, 5 hrs of sleep is nothing for a 3 y/o. I like mamille's post also


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I just feel so helpless, though. She sleeps well if I force her too, i.e. threaten a punitive time-out (NOT a time-out in the room with me, or one she can leave at her own free will, but in which she is either locked in a room or I am holding the door, i.e. true isolation).

I really, really want her to be able to go to sleep for ANY reason other than sheer fear of punishment (including loss of a bribe).

Talking it out does NOT put her to sleep, and with two sleeps in a 24/hr period, and about a three-hour talk-down-pat-down, that's six hours of our day gone.

Six hours. We could go to Paris, go shopping, and come back in six hours. Bake bread. Go to the park and paint pictures and take a bath. Play a game, take a nap, call her grandmothers, bake cookies. Feed the ducks, swim in the lake, buy ice-creams, cuddle.

I have TOLD her that. "You're losing time at the park." "Do you REALLY choose yelling at me instead of feeding the ducks? Seriously?" "We were going to paint! Come on, let's make it happen."

Of course, these would work if she were rational. She is not.









I think I will stop time-outs for hitting and altogether and just let her hit.  Because obviously they are not stopping hitting. Nothing will stop her, as you all point out... she hits because she's three, because she's not sleeping (and nothing will make her sleep), or whatever.

Quote:

The thing is is that your dd is not separate from you. She IS trying to stay close. She is still trying to have her place despite her younger sibling, and your challenging dh, and your list of priorities. And I have a feeling that she is very much like you.
We have a lot in common, but she's much more like her dad. When I was a child, and even now, I was very sensitive to words. VERY sensitive to loud noises. My mom always bragged about how she never had to raise her voice. Now my husband complains that if he so much talks from the next room, my ears hurt. DD is like DH: She's nearly deaf to the world... unless it's what she wants. And today she said she wanted a different family, that she wouldn't hit if she were in a different family.







I'm ready to let her try it out, seriously.

I feel like every day I get more and more permissive because gentle things don't really mean anything to her. So even though I *say* "That hurts. Please don't hit me," I might as well say, "Good job." Even though I walk away, I could just as well say, "Hit me again, please," or "Go on, continue your fascinating whine." She seems encouraged by EVERYTHING at this point. There's no "authoritative" with her. There's no "just don't let" with her. She must be physically restrained, or actively punished in a way that is socially or physically uncomfortable, the latter of which I'm trying to avoid, and the former of which would only be possible if she were an only child.

I feel so cheated by gentle discipline in this respect. The idea that kids care about other people so you can count on that to help guide them. Nobody says what to do if your kid does not care! How to teach them to care about others in the first place.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I do want to say that by "true isolation", that is relative to a three-year-old: it's three minutes, and I respond to what she is saying to some extent, by reminding her "three minutes... three minutes...". However to her at her age, that is real isolation and it is what I want to get away from.


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

It's just not easy. It's the hardest thing I have ever done. I really thought I was going to have to go on an extended break this winter from my family. I started smoking instead. I can finally understand why women walk out on their families forever. I yell, I swat, I get really intense. I am not perfect. But I'm the adult and I have to do a better job then her. The thing I kept on hearing was that 3 was like 13 except that they are bigger. That scared the living stuffing out of me. Here I was failing at keeping control and she was 35 lbs! And loved me more than anything! What the f was I going to do? So I tried to remember WHY I wanted to parent the way I did. WHY I wanted to cook every meal from scratch. WHY it was important to have routines and no media. WHY I didn't beat my child (though I thought about it everyday). I certainty couldn't see the results on a day to day basis. In fact it seemed to make things worse. BUT she was hell! and now, she's not. Remember when your dd was a baby and things would get so bad, no sleep, crying no matter what, and just as you were ready to commit hari kari she changed? Well- it is no different now that she can walk, talk, argue, hit, scream etc.

By changing how you deal with her then you will feel the backlash- less sleep, less structure, more unknown on her part,etc. Is it an experiment that you are willing to see through the end? I don't think I would. And I think that it goes against your nature. Can YOU be laid back, whatever goes kind of mom? Cause it's the energy that needs to change, not just the actions/ reactions. I used to scoff at therapist that said "pick your battles", because that was not how I was raised. Now- I'm not so sure. Do I want to spend all our time fighting over stupid shit? nope. Does she get three tries to buckle her buckle before I will do it? Yup. Does she react as if I have chopped her legs off if I do the buckle? Yup! Does she hate having her independence infringed on so much that next time when she is asked to buckle herself she does it? Yup. Is this 100% successful? Absolutely not. You are in the trenches and nothing is going to make her into a different person.

So if I'm understanding from your posts that you are tired of fighting the good fight then I'm sorry to tell you that you are s*&t out of luck. If you want to rant and rail about your life, then go for it. If you want some reminders and suggestions then I think you have had some good ones. I really don't think GD is the demon. I myself can only wish for the patience that I read on these boards. I can only say that I feel so much better when I get a real break from being mom and housewife. Like I can come back to myself instead of being torn into so many pieces. Sleep, water, food, time to breathe... these are essential to being able to live the life I want. And when in times of crisis or extreme stress, how I live my life makes or breaks me and my kid.

(personally I have realized that I myself am easily stuck in a 3 year old mindset. That I tantrum, and get frustrated, angry, impatient just like my dd. When I was three my life changed so drastically and painfully that I think having my dd at the same age triggered many unconscious things that caused me to have a harder time coping with what she was going through; that I couldn't get perspective or be objective. It's impossible to have a demanding narcissistic kid when truthfully I am that way myself. There was not enough room for the both of us.)


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

I haven't read the entire thread but...when my son is arguing with me, I reply:

"I love you too much to argue."

I keep repeating it over and over until we dissolve until giggles.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

That's what a time-out is, though. Time-out is punishment to the child who doesn't like it, relaxation for the child who does. It's that simple.

I disagree. Many people use them as a way to shame and isolate the child and especially if they use it in her preschool like they do in my son's she may very much have a preconception of the "time-out" like the dunces hat in the corner. Being locked in your room or sat on a chair and told to sit there for an arbitrary period of time is WAY different than being told to come over here and calm down and when you are ready to calm down and be human and apologize you may come back to the group. Especially if they use it in her school, you may want a different name at home.

Quote:

Again... we are going in circles. Can I do that? Yes. Does it suck the life out of my days sometimes? Yes. Is that a neural pattern I want her to get into? No. Is it gentle? Not particularly.
Yes it sucks the life out of you, but it will fade evenutally and in the meantime it is by FAR the most gentle route available to face a combative natured person. It is used by UN peace negotiators. It is taught by the NVC organization as a tactic for disengaging. It is used at Peace University for reaching through the combative nature of some and finding the real need being communicated.

The first few dozen times it will take you fifty or a hundred repetitions. But little by little it will get less and less and less because eventually they cotton on to the futility of it.

Not gentle? It's a LOT more gentle than "No" "Because we can't" "Just stop" "Leave me alone" "I don't want to talk about it" "Stop talking" "Go away now" A LOT more gentle because it is not denying them the right to talk through their emotions and feelings and arguments, it is simply not responding to them sending the message "it does not matter what you say about this, there is no way for this to change." and allows you to have a sort of mantra so that you do not lose your cool.

I am also not sure what you mean by a neural pattern you don't want her getting into? What pattern specifically are you concerned about? Can you clarify what you mean?

Quote:

I just let her win and focus on doing what needs to be done, such as, oh, showering. Talking to baby. I'm not going to debate the way the peanut-butter is spread. No. Just... no. She wants to but sorry. If you want to paint, if you want to speak politely, if you want to discuss, yes. Argue? No, I do that enough already in a day.
ahhhh. Okay. Now I get what you mean. Yeah. I would do the same. I use "whatever" with DS a lot. And I play "I don't care" from Really Rosie. I spend a lot of time using music to tease him from his stroppy arguments with me, like when he is begging and begging for something he wants I start singing "You Can't always get what you want" he had to be the only 2 year old who could sing a Rolling Stones song in his pre-school.









It's okay to use humor to turn a case of the whines into a case of the giggles, even if YOU are the only one laughing.







You do what you can to get through these years without killing them.









Quote:

This is true, but if you want to buckle, then freaking buckle, you know? Don't tell me you'll buckle then don't buckle then tell me no no you will, then you need help, then not that way.

Just to throw this out there. Benjamin was not allowed to buckle his own seat belt or car seat until he was 5 years and 2 months...like a few weeks ago. It wasn't even a discussion I _thought_ about entertaining. It was gonna be me or his dad. A) I wasn't all that keen on having him figure out how to undo it (which his brain could figure out pretty easily if he was shown how to put it on) and battle him undoing it every three blocks. B) I never felt all that secure he was doing right and it was just _that_ important to me. I put Car Seat safety up on a priority level with not drinking poison and not playing with fire. Just absolutely NO. I listened to a LOT of crying and wailing and arguments. I tried explaining my point of view but at some point I was done explaining. This is the way it is. If you have a complaint I can fix, let me know. Is it the fabric? It is the buckles? Does it hurt? I will make sure you are comfortable and listen to complaints or concerns openly, but its me or daddy who'se buckling the damn thing. GET. OVER. IT! Took him about a year and half to get over it. I just kept repeating for a year and half "I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be." I didn't answer why, I didn't respond to abusive name calling. I didn't react to pleas of maturity and I'm a big boy just: "I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be.""I am sorry you don't like it this is the way it has to be."...

So what? It is a battle I am willing to face again if DD turns out to feel the need to assert her independence over car seat buckling. ABSOLUTELY! No way. No how is it a choice. Being gentle sometimes means doing what is best for them and letting go of the need for them to like it. He is now the seat belt police in the car, and if we are in a mini van with a tour group or a taxi, he makes sure everyone has their belts on before we are allowed to go.

Quote:

I mean... I'm sorry, but as long as you think you are the center of the universe, disappointment is bound to follow, you know?
Yes, but how do we handle that disappointment as parents? I think in order for them to move on to the next phase of development I believe they need to face that disappointment with as much empathy as you can muster but where it counts (and that's different for every family and every child) not giving in.

Quote:

Sure, when they're older, which is why we had hoped to have our third closer to these two. If I am pregnant, these will be exactly two years apart, so it will be 4.5, 2, and newborn, or in high-school (because DD1 is October), Senior, Sophomore, 8th grade, then again Junior-Freshman, Senior-Sophomore. Which I think is great.

Doesn't mean it's not pure hell in the early years.
Too true. My hats go off to you mamas who face the gauntlet like that. I could never.

Quote:

Oh, I know, some people STTN co-sleeping with their children who just calmly listen to them when they ask them to go to their quiet spot then they go and they just love the baby.

That is not us, and I can't even think about making it happen because it will just depress me.
IMO/E, extroverts do not co-sleep well. They get energized by the presence of others, especially introverts from whom they can more readily leech energy (making your nights less restful and therefor less productive). DS was/is motivated by people in his sleeping space. If a friend or cousins sleeps over guarenteed he will be up and ready to bounce at the crack of dawn and have a very hard time sleeping in the first place. He gets active and more alert the more people are around him. This is perhaps another reason to consider finding another sleeping arrangement for your younger one. (I know that may not be possible, but maybe that's one of the reasons DD1 is having a hard time settling down?)

The fastest sleep I get out of him requires that after school and a bit of playground time on the way home, he has an hour of computer time either before or after dinner (which works really well for me to have time with the baby or to make dinner), a warm shower, an hour of a video while I put baby to sleep or before that did some grading/preparation for my classes, one bedtime story (for a while right aorund your DDs age I would read a few pages from Sinbad the Sailor, read in a soft lilting voice) and if he makes it through the story, a song.

For computer game sites for tots, we really like Starfall.com and Boowakwala.com and now that he is older and starting to read more he likes Poptropica which is a pretty fun puzzle game...but really for the six and up crowd. We started with Starfall when he was right around your DD's age. SO educational and so not a waste of time. By the time he was four he knew that the silent e at the end of the word makes the I say "Ahy" and the A say "Ehy" and makes the E say "ee" and makes the O say "Oh" and Make the U say "you". He could recognize phonemes like OO OU EA and IGH and TH and CH and knew the individual sounds of all the letters. Boowkwala is more silly stuff but there are some great puzzles for him and logic puzzle stuff and he could start to do them at 3.5 yrs old. He loved it and I got some much needed down time from the barrage of questions and inqueries and can-I-haves and I-wannas. Introverts tend to get energized by screen time. It makes them hyper, ready to be social, which is why many reclusive introverts can stay up for days and days on the computer "chatting" and blogging etc. Extroverts get drained by such isolated interaction and find themselve sleepy and ready to rest their eyes.

He loves the games and I have to limit the time, but the fight he puts up is pretty pathetic compared to if I say "we need to leave the park now." or worse still if we are at a play date with friends and it's time for either group to leave...forget it. We are talking tears and abuse for the next two hours.

This doesn't mean you will see immediate results, but you may at least get a bit of down time to re-energize you.

When DS is hyper I let him play for a half hour or so and usually he calms down after that and is ready to eat or even just talk at a normal intelligible speed.









FWIW, hitting is a non-negotiable with me. But yes, therein lies the rub, how do you physically stop it if you also have a younger toddler to protect? I don't know. My niece is like that. You give her a telling off or a time-out, first she curls up in a ball of what appears very much to me to be pure rage, then she goes mental and hits and spits and just loses it. I have found that using toddler-ese (here's a blog about it: http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/babys...the-block.aspx) with her in these moments helps to calm her down somewhat. If you can catch her in her ball of rage stage and toddler-ese her down out of the rage into just angry and bitter but trusting you, you may have averted disaster, but better still is to use it BEFORE she needs telling off or a time out. TBH, prevention of bad behavior by managing her _constantly_ is the only method that seems to work against her violent tendencies. When she has been left with me for long periods, despite having her sisters, my son and my baby in my charge, she had to take focus priority, not preference, she didn't get her way, but I had to keep a keen eye on her and watch for any signs of hunger, exhaustion boredom etc. If I could manage to distract the others with a video or a coloring project or a computer game I could take her aside and read a story with the baby, I offered her and DS snacks almost all day, just had a buffet of things like apple slices, granola bars, sandwiches, the more frequently they ate, the better both of them behaved. I had to just keep switching activities and offering new games.

That could be why your DD loves pre-school. I think pre-school teachers are trained to switch activities every 20-30 minutes or something like that.

When meltdowns happen with Ruthie, we all have to just wait it out until she decides to be calm again, but the only way to get through them is to remain calm and determined and keep placing her back in the safe place, and keep telling her "I love you, but hitting is not okay." placing her back on the chair "When you are ready to be nice you can come back" and stand there over her until she either gives in, or says she is ready, but to be honest this could take up to two hours of an afternoon. Not fun for anyone.

Conversely Ruthie, who lives primarily in a _spanking_ household and who is frequently told to _stop, be quiet, leave people alone_ and then is swatted or _locked in her room_ if she doesn't, is still having tantrums at 4.5 yo as frequently and as violently as she did two years ago...but her sweet moments are _extra_ sweet now which at least makes her tolerable.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

But you yourself said that I could make exceptions. But how can I make exceptions if she's going to bring them up against me in arguments?!?

?!?!? I know many other kids that do that but you are suggesting I can go easy.

NO exceptions, NO quarter. It's why we NEVER get ice-cream from the ice-cream truck (ruin the park experience forever), why we NEVER get treats at the grocery store (I don't feel like whining about it the whole darn time I go shopping for the next six years, thanks), why we NEVER get up more than one time after bedtime without sitting alone in the other room for three minutes until calm enough for bed, NEVER get special food for dinner, NEVER eat in front of the TV. It has to be 100% perfect otherwise she will think,

"Mommy cracked. She said we didn't do that, but then we did. I can crack her again. Let's try."


Again, haven't read to the end but...I respond to requests in a number of different ways.

"No."

"I buy treats for children who are polite and helpful."

"Sure, we can!"

When my son starts to whine, he gets:

"I will be glad to listen when your voice is calm like mine." Said, of course, in a calm tone.

When he says, "Bailey's mom buys him (lets him, etc.)..."

he gets, "I am not Bailey's mom; I am YOUR mom."

I don't entertain arguments. I use a variety of responses:

"No, thanks."

"I'm sorry; I can't hear people who argue with me."

"I love you too much to argue!"

"Wow, you must be tired; let's get you ready for nap!"

I also usually give him a choice; sometimes fun things, sometimes not.

"Would you like lunch before or after nap?"

"Would you like to take a nap or watch TV?"

"Would you like to go outside or play nicely with me?"

When he stops being nice (admittedly pretty rare), I stop playing with him.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamille* 
...Does she get three tries to buckle her buckle before I will do it? Yup. Does she react as if I have chopped her legs off if I do the buckle? Yup! Does she hate having her independence infringed on so much that next time when she is asked to buckle herself she does it? Yup. Is this 100% successful? Absolutely not. You are in the trenches and nothing is going to make her into a different person.









This seems like a good solutiuon/compromise.

Also: here is a link (http://www.happiestbaby.com/learn-ab...-on-the-block/) to the book that introduced me to Toddler-ese and helped me a LOT in wrapping my head around my toddler, now little kid's brain. It helped me have patience when patience was running thin on the ground, or at least helped me to apologize later when I lost my patience and went ballistic.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
She is looking to make SENSE of the world and the rules.

This little bit reminded me of something else I did with my son around that age. We established Rules for each situation; we did this *together* and discussed why the Rules were important. I kept them in my phone memo pad so I had a handy reference and we recited them as we moved into each new situation.

For example:

Road Rules:
1) Always buckle up
2) Always stop at stop signs
3) Use our turn signals
4) Always yield to traffic

People Rules:
1) No hitting
2) No whining
3) Use our words
4) Use our manners
5) Respect people's personal space

Sea Rules:
1) Don't go in the water when there are giant squids in there.
2) Ditto for octopus
3) Always get away from the octopuses and the sea monsters
4) Always stay in the water when there are no monsters, no sea monsters, and no ghosts

These were Rules we developed together that gave him a FRAMEWORK for each situation. From there, he could suss out the fine points but he needed a basic understanding of what was acceptable. I liken it to being dropped on an alien planet with no idea of the social mores or even language yet being expected to conduct yourself accordingly.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minxie* 
Sea Rules:
1) Don't go in the water when there are giant squids in there.
2) Ditto for octopus
3) Always get away from the octopuses and the sea monsters
4) Always stay in the water when there are no monsters, no sea monsters, and no ghosts

Very sensible rules indeed.









DS and I did this last summer but it is not so specific.

Rule number one: Listen to Mommy and Daddy

Rule Number two: Always watch out for the Palm Trees

(I said, why? He says "Look at them, they are so pinchy looking and they are _way_ too tall!") Sound advice. Sound advice.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
Very sensible rules indeed.









DS and I did this last summer but it is not so specific.

Rule number one: Listen to Mommy and Daddy

Rule Number two: Always watch out for the Palm Trees

(I said, why? He says "Look at them, they are so pinchy looking and they are _way_ too tall!") Sound advice. Sound advice.

Very good advice, indeed! We have situation specific Rules because he asked for them once I established the first set of Rules. He loved the idea. Now that he is four, we don't actively use the Rules but they sure did help get us through age 3.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Cannot respond in depth Hakeber, but there are no time-outs in pre-school. It's a short session and even if a child is hitting a teacher the teacher may not use anything but a gentle, positive touch with the child (i.e. teacher may not use a firm grip to remove the child from her area). The only exception is if the child is a danger to other children, but that is also grounds to call the parents, obviously, so that would be exceptional.

I do think it's easier because children simply don't test the limits with other adults like they do with their parents. Period.

Quote:

I stop playing with him.
This kind of thing seems soooo simple in principle. I used to imagine I would do just that as a parent. Cooly, calmly walk away.

In reality, when they follow you around, you must ignore them, even when they hit and pinch or whatever to get your attention, because they must engage you.

And then you've really just escalated the situation. I don't feel it is useful to have that in-between escalation that will lead to some kind of worse situation.

Quote:

Benjamin was not allowed to buckle his own seat belt or car seat until he was 5 years and 2 months...like a few weeks ago. It wasn't even a discussion I thought about entertaining.
Too late!









Quote:

also usually give him a choice; sometimes fun things, sometimes not.

"Would you like lunch before or after nap?"

"Would you like to take a nap or watch TV?"

"Would you like to go outside or play nicely with me?"
My child's typical answers (she has refined her debate technique):

"Neither."
"The park!"
"I *am* playing nice!"

(Note that repetition will not work with any of these... the child recognizes other alternatives / interpretations of reality and demands you recognize them. In other words, she is changing the subject. You can call her on that but you're still arguing. You still lose.)

Oh, the false-dichotomy. It worked for about six months in our house and I think that was a pretty good run, personally. Let me know when it stops working in your house.

I think ultimately, she is just too hard for me to trick. I can't trick her. I can force her, I can bribe her, I can threaten her, I can ignore her, but I can't trick her into doing something that she doesn't want to do. Doesn't help that I'm not a good liar. I think she can see in my eyes that I know it's a false dichotomy! Her dad is way better at that kind of thing, not with me (because I hate false dichotomies, haha) but with her, I mean.

Incidentally I have even tried this with my next one and she's worse. She will knock you down if you present her with two choices that she didn't have in mind. I swear she has the funniest look on her face. "WTF are you thinking? I pointed at the YOGHURT!" I mean at 15 months it's funny, it is such a cute expression with that button nose. I'm sure you all have seen it on your own.

I read and tried all of HTOTB.

I will not tell you which review is mine but it's SCATHING. I HATE that book. I mean I HATE it.

Anyone who tells you something will work like magic, and that if it doesn't, you are just not empathetic enough, should be drug out into the street and chained to my child. Seriously. What a UAV. How dare he say it works like magic on every kid.

Toddlerese. More like... I shall not go on but suffice it to say after a week of looking like an idiot in public and even more so at home, I failed to hit her "sweet spot".

It doesn't help that she doesn't talk at ALL like that, so I had to kind of modify it so it sounded more like pre-school-ese, but a the same time all angry... she thought I was making fun of her although I was dead serious and honestly, genuinely trying to empathize. I tried to tone it down a bit, and she just actually got worse. It was the worst of all the dismal discipline failures over the past year I've seen. I actually recycled the book, so traumatized was I. It's the first book I've ever recycled, but I hate so much the idea that he suggests something will work for everybody, like magic, that I would never give it to my worst enemy.

Reverse psychology? Clapping loudly in their face to get their attention?

Dude, I could have thought of that. I mean seriously. Who is this guy? My child is not an inarticulate caveman (and I don't even believe in the caveman myth...even monkeys don't alway s"talk" like that). She's a pre-schooler with erratic emotional regulation, under-developed logical function, who has a lot of words for different emotions that she uses with finesse.

I should have known it wouldn't work when I read it but I was desperate.

So yeah, HTOTB? I hear HBOTB is really good but I haven't read it.

I like the idea of rules. We may go over some tomorrow and put them up on the wall. I think that will support predictability.

(However, posters in the past have not had much success in our house. The "no monsters" sign that was supposed to keep monsters out? "They don't see it." I show them. "But they can't READ."







Okay, next night I'm ready- there's a picture on it. "They STILL can't see it." "Monsters, see?" "They say they aren't paying attention." Oh. My. God.)


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
My child's typical answers (she has refined her debate technique):

"Neither."
"The park!"
"I *am* playing nice!"

(Note that repetition will not work with any of these... *the child recognizes other alternatives / interpretations of reality and demands you recognize them.* In other words, she is changing the subject. You can call her on that but you're still arguing. You still lose.)

I disagree. You can choose not to meet that demand and just keep repeating the choice. There is no question she can ask to which I would not repeat the choice/statement of fact, until _she_ acknowledges MY demand which is her accpetance of my statement. Until she either answers appropriately or backs down there is NOT ONE thing I would change. Not one.

Quote:

(However, posters in the past have not had much success in our house. The "no monsters" sign that was supposed to keep monsters out? "They don't see it." I show them. "But they can't READ."







Okay, next night I'm ready- there's a picture on it. "They STILL can't see it." "Monsters, see?" "They say they aren't paying attention." Oh. My. God.)
We used Monster repellent (I got a spray bottle from the drug store and made a label with pictures of all his dark phobias, sharks, crabs, ghosts, monsters, spiders, scorpions, snakes, whales, etc with a red x over them all) I filled it with just touch of my perfume and some rubbing alcohol to make the sprayer make a sound and each night before bed we "sprayed" the whole room down. I haven't used it in about three months now, but for a while (from 3-4.5) it was every night.

So...tell me how you _really_ feel about Dr karp.









Okay okay. I never really noticed all that judgy stuff you mentioned. I just loved the concept of evolving linguistic skills. Really helped _me_ (as a hobby socio-linguist) relate and motify my language when he was/is in meltdown phase. But I can see how it might not work and that is really crappy if it made you feel guilty. I tend to extract what I like from books and ignore the rest. I am a skimmer and I tend to ignore absolute statements from authors because afterall if they don't say it it means they haven't got absolute confidence in what they are saying, so why bother saying it at all, let alone selling it for $19.95 a pop, eh?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

I disagree. You can choose not to meet that demand and just keep repeating the choice. There is no question she can ask to which I would not repeat the choice/statement of fact, until she acknowledges MY demand which is her accpetance of my statement. Until she either answers appropriately or backs down there is NOT ONE thing I would change. Not one.
Maybe I don't like repeating a false dichotomy because it is a passive-aggressive way of saying "no". It's not acknowledging what the child is saying and that would drive me, personally, up the wall. As a child I would find that infuriating, to the point of driving me to distraction. Here the child is saying, "This is my reality. I want you to deal with it."

I agree that this gets me into a mess but there must be some way to acknowledge the child's point of view and move on. I think false-dichotomies are meant to trick the child into choosing a second or third or fourth choice, by means of distraction, and tricks aren't that nice. Why not just be honest and say, "I don't care what you think right now because I don't have time so we're doing this."

Because that is the message that is sent, if the child takes the repetition to its logical conclusion. "Mom's not listening; she's giving me choices that restrict the true choice here; she is in control."

So in that respect I don't think it's more gentle.

Quote:

So...tell me how you really feel about Dr karp.
OMG I'd totally send you to my review but it's probably a UAV, LOL! It's not him, personally, I shouldn't imply that it is. He's a doctor, not a child development specialist. I know many people for whom HBOTB was a godsend. It's that BOOK. Evil. But many self-help books are...

Quote:

if they don't say it it means they haven't got absolute confidence in what they are saying, so why bother saying it at all, let alone selling it for $19.95 a pop, eh?
My blessed copy of Adventures in Gentle Discipline (though very thin on this stage... hmmmm... wonder why, LOL!) has no such tone in it. It is SO humble and comforting.

Quote:

We used Monster repellent (I got a spray bottle from the drug store and made a label with pictures of all his dark phobias, sharks, crabs, ghosts, monsters, spiders, scorpions, snakes, whales, etc with a red x over them all) I filled it with just touch of my perfume and some rubbing alcohol to make the sprayer make a sound and each night before bed we "sprayed" the whole room down. I haven't used it in about three months now, but for a while (from 3-4.5) it was every night.
I was recommended this but I'm just thinking... my child, in her room alone with water in a spray bottle. Is that really a good idea?!? We are theists, DH is a Muslim, so she does say her simple prayers before bed which sometimes helps. The monster thing is not a huge issue, it was just to illustrate the question of the use of a sign. If I were desperate I would definitely try monster repellant.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Maybe I don't like repeating a false dichotomy because it is a passive-aggressive way of saying "no". It's not acknowledging what the child is saying and that would drive me, personally, up the wall. As a child I would find that infuriating, to the point of driving me to distraction. Here the child is saying, "This is my reality. I want you to deal with it."

I agree that this gets me into a mess but there must be some way to acknowledge the child's point of view and move on. I think false-dichotomies are meant to trick the child into choosing a second or third or fourth choice, by means of distraction, and tricks aren't that nice. Why not just be honest and say, "I don't care what you think right now because I don't have time so we're doing this."

Because that is the message that is sent, if the child takes the repetition to its logical conclusion. "Mom's not listening; she's giving me choices that restrict the true choice here; *she is in control*."

So in that respect I don't think it's more gentle.

You're the mom. You SHOULD be in control. Being a gentle disciplinarian doesn't mean you aren't in control. Discipline means someone is following you - you are the one who is calling the shots.

And it isn't a false dichotomy to say, "These are the options I have made available to you. You choose one, or I'll chose for you." That is you being in control and being the adult.

How you handle that problem determines whether your discipline is gentle. But being in control and making things happen that truly need to happen, particularly for safety, is not contrary to gentle discipline. Don't spank her, humiliate her, or yell at her, and it's gentle. I also avoid bribes, threats, and punishments, but I still take control. I just don't bribe to make her sit in the car seat. I put her in, I empathize ("You don't like the car seat. I wish there were a way to drive safely without it. I wish we didn't have to go to X.") and no matter what she says, or how unhappy she is, I put her in the car seat and go where I need to go.

I would take control, not engage in arguments, so that she understands that she isn't the mom and doesn't make the decisions in your house. It will take time and there will be tantrums. But her having a tantrum and being unhappy doesn't mean you aren't being gentle. Children are not always happy, particularly 3-year-olds, and they have tantrums when they dont' get their way.

Perhaps you think that GD = consensual living? I have tried living entirely consensually, and this kind of thing is why I don't find it to be practical. I try to find a mutually agreeable solution where I can, but my dd isn't used to making every decision with only her own desires to consider, so I don't have to battle her all the time anymore, and we are able to find agreement in almost all circumstances. But if your dd is used to calling the shots and you want to make her relinquish control to you, you're going to have to take over, and she won't like it.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Maybe I don't like repeating a false dichotomy because it is a passive-aggressive way of saying "no". It's not acknowledging what the child is saying and that would drive me, personally, up the wall. As a child I would find that infuriating, to the point of driving me to distraction. Here the child is saying, "This is my reality. I want you to deal with it."

I agree that this gets me into a mess but there must be some way to acknowledge the child's point of view and move on. I think false-dichotomies are meant to trick the child into choosing a second or third or fourth choice, by means of distraction, and tricks aren't that nice. Why not just be honest and say, "I don't care what you think right now because I don't have time so we're doing this."

Because that is the message that is sent, if the child takes the repetition to its logical conclusion. "Mom's not listening; she's giving me choices that restrict the true choice here; she is in control."

So in that respect I don't think it's more gentle.

But is it a _false_ dichotomy to say there is no other cake, or this is the choice you have, A or B and no amount whining is going to change that? It's only false if you, the choice GIVER falters and decides that there IS another choice (which I do sometimes, when I realize I am being unfair, and then I add a third choice...you can be nice, you can go outside or you can go to your room). The reality is you ARE in charge and you DO get to limit the choices available to her, whether she likes it or not.

I don't think it's at all saying "I am not listening to you". On the contrary, it is saying I AM listening to what you are saying and I will keep standing here listening to you for as long as it takes you to get this simple fact, because my answer will never falter:

THIS IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. We are not going to get a different cake, you are not going to get away with hitting me, we are not going to paint pictures if you can't stop what you're doing, I am not making chicken nuggets tonight, you may not have a new notebook right now.

But I guess if you hate people doing it to you, you will not do it to them, but I learned this tactic in a course taken at Peace University where they train peacemakers from around the world. I have seen in reasserted in the NVC documentation from my training course with NVC.org. It is how violent communication is halted and true negotiations begin, by asserting a common ground upon which change can happen.

I cannot and will not get you a new cake, so you have two choices to make your needs get met: A) eat some of the cake, or B) have no cake. If you want to have further discussion on the topic you must FIRST and FOREMOST acknowledge the absolute truth of this statement. There will be no other types of cake in the house tonight.

Now, IF she manages to come out with a third or fourth choice that she is happy with AND you are happy with, be reasonable, of course. If she says, Mom, I want a piece but can you take the stawberries off my slice, please? Sure. But in that way she is acknowledging your fundamental premise first.

I don't see it as a trick. I see it as a way to be heard when talking to someone who refuses to listen to me.

Quote:


I was recommended this but I'm just thinking... my child, in her room alone with water in a spray bottle. Is that really a good idea?!? We are theists, DH is a Muslim, so she does say her simple prayers before bed which sometimes helps. The monster thing is not a huge issue, it was just to illustrate the question of the use of a sign. If I were desperate I would definitely try monster repellant.
Oh my dear god! I never left it _alone_ with him! Even though I used rubbing alcohol for fast evaporation, I did the spraying, he just told me where.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
*You're the mom. You SHOULD be in control.* Being a gentle disciplinarian doesn't mean you aren't in control. Discipline means someone is following you - you are the one who is calling the shots.

And it isn't a false dichotomy to say, "These are the options I have made available to you. You choose one, or I'll chose for you." *That is you being in control and being the adult.*

How you handle that problem determines whether your discipline is gentle. But being in control and making things happen that truly need to happen, particularly for safety, is not contrary to gentle discipline. Don't spank her, humiliate her, or yell at her, and it's gentle. I also avoid bribes, threats, and punishments, but I still take control. I just don't bribe to make her sit in the car seat. I put her in, I empathize ("You don't like the car seat. I wish there were a way to drive safely without it. I wish we didn't have to go to X.") and no matter what she says, or how unhappy she is, I put her in the car seat and go where I need to go.

I would take control, not engage in arguments, so that she understands that she isn't the mom and doesn't make the decisions in your house. It will take time and there will be tantrums. But her having a tantrum and being unhappy doesn't mean you aren't being gentle. *Children are not always happy, particularly 3-year-olds, and they have tantrums when they dont' get their way.*

Perhaps you think that GD = consensual living? I have tried living entirely consensually, and this kind of thing is why I don't find it to be practical. I try to find a mutually agreeable solution where I can, but my dd isn't used to making every decision with only her own desires to consider, so I don't have to battle her all the time anymore, and we are able to find agreement in almost all circumstances. But if your dd is used to calling the shots and you want to make her relinquish control to you, *you're going to have to take over, and she won't like it*.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
This kind of thing seems soooo simple in principle. I used to imagine I would do just that as a parent. Cooly, calmly walk away.

In reality, when they follow you around, you must ignore them, even when they hit and pinch or whatever to get your attention, because they must engage you...

...My child's typical answers (she has refined her debate technique):

"Neither."
"The park!"
"I *am* playing nice!"

(Note that repetition will not work with any of these... the child recognizes other alternatives / interpretations of reality and demands you recognize them. In other words, she is changing the subject. You can call her on that but you're still arguing. You still lose.)

My DS is pretty smart and has tried those answers also. I respond to them with:

"If you can't decide, I will be glad to decide for you."

"The park is not one of your choices. Would you like to take a nap or watch TV?"

"So you prefer to go outside then? Great! I'll be glad to play with you when you are able to play nicely."

Children KNOW and they TEST. It is your job to set limits for acceptable behavior. They learn the rules from you. Don't kid yourself that she thinks she is playing nicely when she isn't; she's just trying to see how far you will let her push the envelope before calling her on it. We teach others how to treat us.

Also I don't consider it a false dichotomy to limit his choices. Children are often overwhelmed with many choices so it is reasonable to limit them. My son is always welcome to present a third alternative and if it works for me, I will consider it. If not, I repeat that isn't a choice and give him another chance to choose before I choose for him. There are many things about which I flat do not care.

For example:
"Do you want to wear your green shirt or your brown shirt?"

"I'd like to wear my SpiderMan shirt."

"Sure."

or

"SpiderMan is in the hamper; do you want to wear your green shirt or your brown shirt?"

"I'd like to wear my black shirt."

"Sounds good; here you are!"

At no point am I even remotely invested in the decision. My only concern is getting him dressed; what he wears is not important. It only becomes important if he refuses to choose; in which case, I choose for him.

Using the above and continuing:

"No, I want to wear SpiderMan!!!!!"

"Green shirt it is; thank you for your input."

Not only _do_ I walk away, I engage myself in another activity away from him. I read a book or wash dishes or do something that I need to do. I make it clear to him that "I will be glad to play with you when you are ready to be sweet and polite." Then I walk away. I don't engage him any further.

If he starts screaming and crying and carrying on, I remind him that "we do not scream in the living room. You are welcome to go scream in your room." I escort him to his room if necessary and repeat if necessary. It usually isn't as I started this when he was very young.

Also when he was very young, he hit me when he was angry. We promptly discussed that "we don't hit people; we hit drums." Then we sat down with a couple of drums and beat out our anger until we were both laughing. It isn't just he who gets frustrated and upset; I do also so we find ways that we can be angry while still respecting the other person.

Lastly, DS goes to bed at 7PM. He doesn't have to go to sleep but he does need to be in his room and relatively quiet because "Mama Time" starts at 7. We do have the nights where he needs to be walked back to his room. I do so and tell him, "I love you, son; good-night." If it continues, a bit of impatience might even creep into my voice.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

If the presumption is that children act out/badly/inappropriately b/c of unmet needs or underlying issues, and meeting those needs can do wonders to curb behavior, why wouldn't you just interact with the child?

Yes, it's exhausting. I'm an introvert and my oldest (and more spirited chid) is a HUGE extrovert. But he needs interaction. He needs the engagement. And it sounds like if the child is following you around the house doing everything possible to engage you, and using time-outs to play games, that she might just need more interaction. I don't understand the "just ignore" her advice. Until what? She just gives up?







That need isn't going anywhere until it's met.

As exhausting as it is for me (or you) to have an extrovert tugging at me all day, it's equally exhausting for him to NOT do it.

But the kid's supposed to have better coping skills than the adult? Or figure out another way to have his or her needs met? Or just suck it up?

Why not ask the kid what to do in the case of an impasse? "Hmm...you don't like x or y, and it seems like that's all we have, what do you think we should do?" "How can we handle this?" State the problem and seek out solutions....together.

Seriously, my kids would *flip out* if I did some of what's being talked about in this thread. It doesn't surprise me to hear the amount of anger and acting out. That's what strong-willed people do. They do. not. give. up. And the more you fight with them and model not giving up....they do. not. give. up. MORE.

I don't think GD is the problem, I think the adversarial/behaviorism slant is. Stopping the behavior isn't going to change the fact that your kid is angry enough to talk about putting you in the trash or following you around the house hitting you. Or not having her need for engagement met.

And it's probably going to take a good long time to turn things around. I think the grandmothers' advice resonated with me the most in this thread. Be kinder. Hug her more. Gain her trust back. MODEL flexibility, patience, and positive interactions.

Like I said, I've got an 8.5 yr. old and a 5 yr. old and most of the time they are delightful, considerate, and respectful. The nicer I am to them, the nicer they are to me. They are both strong-willed and I know for fact that if I was doing the amount of punishing and ignoring that it *sounds* like is being described here, I would be in complete and total hell. Shoot, I HAVE tried it. And it sucked. In the same kind of ways you are describing. I would stop. I DID stop. It worked out great. You could stop, too.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

I really, really want her to be able to go to sleep for ANY reason other than sheer fear of punishment (including loss of a bribe).

Talking it out does NOT put her to sleep, and with two sleeps in a 24/hr period, and about a three-hour talk-down-pat-down, that's six hours of our day gone.>>>>>

Unfortunately if she's chronically overtired it will take a while to get back to a normal sleeping schedule. I know I mentioned it but Sleepless in America has all kinds of different strategies to help get back to a bedtime routine. She doesn't promise fast or easy so that's why I liked it









have TOLD her that. "You're losing time at the park." "Do you REALLY choose yelling at me instead of feeding the ducks? Seriously?" "We were going to paint! Come on, let's make it happen."

Of course, these would work if she were rational. She is not. >>>>>

Most 3.5 y/os are not rational lol so she is normal in that aspect


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh, I know she's normal, mom2grrls. My question is not, is this normal.

My question is, how do I respond to these behaviors in a gentle way without encouraging them. Ignoring encourages them. Time-ins encourage them. Time-outs unless she cannot leave the time-out area encourage them. Bribes and withdrawal of privileges improve the behavior short term but quickly escalate in an arms race. Discussion encourages them.

So... ??? If I shouldn't ignore (not that I can), what can I do but calmly endure abuse?

I mean really, what would you do? When any interaction encourages further abuse, and ignoring also encourages it?

Quote:

The nicer I am to them, the nicer they are to me. They are both strong-willed and I know for fact that if I was doing the amount of punishing and ignoring that it *sounds* like is being described here, I would be in complete and total hell.
We are only discussing problem behavior. We have three to five activities a day that it's focused on her and we're having fun together. I am telling you about all the things I've tried, not every second of our day.

The nicer I am to her, though, the more she tests. Like, "Oh, you're being gentle and lenient? Let's see... how far does that lean?"

Hard to explain. If I agree to one thing, she IMMEDIATELY asks for another. And another. And another. Always? No, of course not. But those times are hard with two kids.

Strong-willed manifests in many different ways. I give my child many choices and challenges and we hug a lot and I really do try to "fill the cup" and connect and make sure she's always well-rested, well-fed, pottied, etc.

But the fact is, there are times when we do not agree, or when she wants to argue, and I'm asking about THOSE times.

I have distilled it down to three times that I really can't deal with:

-When she hits (this is because she disagrees with something that happens, i.e. mommy needs to care for someone else's basic needs, her little sister gets to play with a toy that suddenly becomes attractive though it was ignored for six months until little sister got it) or kicks.
-When she expels insults/abusive language (ibid)
-When she does not want to go to bed and will do ANYTHING to keep it from happening... even if the nightlight (that she picked out and chose the place for on the wall) is on, monsters are gone, three bedtime stories have been read, she had her nap, she went to bed on time the night before, she's been kissed, hugged, given sweet dreams, told about what we will do the next day if only she is well-rested... even if I were the world's most perfect mother, she would still challenge this.

Because she's 3.5. Not because I'm bad. Not because I don't have a gentle, half-hour routine full of fun and relaxing stories. Not because the room isn't the right temperature, or there isn't white noise, or she hasn't had a say in her pyjamas and her blanket. Not because we haven't hugged. Because, in her own words:

"I need something."
"What do you need, baby?"
"I need something besides sleep."
"You don't want to sleep."
"No, I want to not sleep."
"You don't want to go to bed, you want to be awake."
"Yeah, I want it to be day."
"I understand, you want to do the fun day things. It's night, though. When we wake up..."

She jumps out of bed at this point, and says, "Morning!". We've explored the possibility of nightmares, fear of the dark, the comfort of her bed, sounds at night, blah blah blah.

Nope. She's just a normal 3.5 year old and there's nothing I can do.

However, I have a responsibility to get her to bed so she can function normally. KWIM?

Quote:

But is it a false dichotomy to say there is no other cake, or this is the choice you have, A or B and no amount whining is going to change that? It's only false if you, the choice GIVER falters and decides that there IS another choice (which I do sometimes, when I realize I am being unfair, and then I add a third choice...you can be nice, you can go outside or you can go to your room). The reality is you ARE in charge and you DO get to limit the choices available to her, whether she likes it or not.
Yeah, but I'm just saying, this is no more gentle than being honest about it and telling her up-front, you know? Why bother shoving choices she disagrees with in her face when I could just tell her "nope!"

I'm just saying, presenting these choices is only more gentle than brute honesty when they are a genuine distraction for a younger child. Not when presented to a child that can see that this is just a distraction technique.

---

Quote:

"If you can't decide, I will be glad to decide for you."

"The park is not one of your choices. Would you like to take a nap or watch TV?"

"So you prefer to go outside then? Great! I'll be glad to play with you when you are able to play nicely.
"

---

You're just prolonging the argument. I am trying to avoid arguments. My illustrative answers were just to highlight this. That she's not going to give up. I"m not saying she's smart. I'm saying she DOESN'T GIVE UP. There is no WORD or ANSWER that is going to end the argument. Not one.

---

Quote:

Seriously, my kids would *flip out* if I did some of what's being talked about in this thread. It doesn't surprise me to hear the amount of anger and acting out. That's what strong-willed people do. They do. not. give. up. And the more you fight with them and model not giving up....they do. not. give. up. MORE.
---

Yep. Yep. But there are some non-negotiables. Don't hit. Don't kick. Sleep. Sometimes we have to go somewhere.

So WHAT DO I DO THEN? I can't argue, I can't incentivize, I can't force because you can't force someone not to hit every time, or to sleep.

So what do I do?!?!

I am modeling not hitting and using words to express anger and disagreement. I model sleeping. If you think I'm not doing these things, and not modeling compromise most of the time, you're wrong.

But I am not going to live with being hit until somehow it clicks. I'm sorry. She can't hit.

Except... with GD, apparently, she can. Because there's nothing I can do about it.

Except prevent it with the perfect life. If someone would have told me to have the perfect life before having kids, I wouldn't have had them! Sorry, we live in reality.

Incidentally, I am a behavioralist. I don't think behavioralism encourages punishment. I think modeling is ideal. However, modeling doesn't always allow for gentle co-existence when one person is not following the program.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It's possible she's hitting you looking for boundaries. You can enforce boundaries without hitting. You're bigger than she is. Block her hand and physically keep her from hitting you, and tell her "you may not hit me." Every single time. Consistency is the key, not punishment, and consistency is the key regardless of whether you punish. There's a good chance that if you regain control and are consistent with what boundaries you set up, she won't seek boundaries anymore and the hitting will stop. But it does take time, and you do have to be very consistent. And yes she will test looking for that boundary and testing that new boundary to see how strong it is, and it will get much worse as she tests before she accepts that the boundary is there to stay and is strong enough.

The false dichotomy here is "doing nothing and letting child have their way and hit you" or "punish". I've had a strong willed 3.5-year-old, as have many of us. We've been through this and we've handled it. You do have to be in control, but you don't have to punish, and it is possible to be in control without punishment. Having said that, time outs can be done gently, and if that fits your parenting philosphy (you said you're a behaviorist), then you don't need anyone's permission to do it.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Oh, I know she's normal, mom2grrls. My question is not, is this normal.

My question is, how do I respond to these behaviors in a gentle way without encouraging them. Ignoring encourages them. Time-ins encourage them. Time-outs unless she cannot leave the time-out area encourage them. Bribes and withdrawal of privileges improve the behavior short term but quickly escalate in an arms race. Discussion encourages them.

So... ??? If I shouldn't ignore (not that I can), what can I do but calmly endure abuse?

I mean really, what would you do? When any interaction encourages further abuse, and ignoring also encourages it?

Hang in there and pray for patience and come here and vent to people.

Seriously. That is the only advice I have. It will pass. There just isn't a whole lot you can do about it apart from physically restrain her.

I have scooped Benjamin up into a bear hug with legs wrapped around him to stop him from hitting and kicking at that age. But I did not have a second child at the time, so you may not have that luxury. I'd hold him, rock and repeat in his ear: "I love you, mommy is here. I love you, Mommy is here..." until he calmed down. Then I said "We do not hit people. Understand?"

Is that Gentle? Not really, but then neither was he and there was no way to isolate him or walk away. I have grabbed his hand mid hit and held it, and said. We do not hit! As sternly as I can and held it staring him down until he broke his glare and then let go.

Quote:

We are only discussing problem behavior. We have three to five activities a day that it's focused on her and we're having fun together. I am telling you about all the things I've tried, not every second of our day.

The nicer I am to her, though, the more she tests. Like, "Oh, you're being gentle and lenient? Let's see... how far does that lean?"

Hard to explain. If I agree to one thing, she IMMEDIATELY asks for another. And another. And another. Always? No, of course not. But those times are hard with two kids.
Oh they are hard, but thankfully they are only a few years (and only one or two years of such intense levels...one year down, eh?). But I found that once I was able to realize that it was developmentally normal for them to do this and not some form of manipulative play or delibrate abuse I was able to take it a lot more calmly...I think that's everyone saying "Yeah, that's normal!" because what we are trying to say is...lighten up, have a sense of humor and try to just give yourself a break. You don't have to be perfect, you just have to get _through_ it without hurting or scarring your kids. You just have to let them know that no matter what craziness they throw at you you will still love them, and it sounds like you are doing a great job at that.

Quote:

Strong-willed manifests in many different ways. I give my child many choices and challenges and we hug a lot and I really do try to "fill the cup" and connect and make sure she's always well-rested, well-fed, pottied, etc.

But the fact is, there are times when we do not agree, or when she wants to argue, and I'm asking about THOSE times.

I have distilled it down to three times that I really can't deal with:

-When she hits (this is because she disagrees with something that happens, i.e. mommy needs to care for someone else's basic needs, her little sister gets to play with a toy that suddenly becomes attractive though it was ignored for six months until little sister got it) or kicks.
-When she expels insults/abusive language (ibid)
-When she does not want to go to bed and will do ANYTHING to keep it from happening... even if the nightlight (that she picked out and chose the place for on the wall) is on, monsters are gone, three bedtime stories have been read, she had her nap, she went to bed on time the night before, she's been kissed, hugged, given sweet dreams, told about what we will do the next day if only she is well-rested... even if I were the world's most perfect mother, she would still challenge this.
Okay, the truth is IMO that there is no way to handle this that YOU will feel is gentle, because you don't think it is gentle to over power her and control the situation physically, or to disengage when it is non-negotiable, and you cannot let insults wash over you or laugh at her when she calls you names.

So either wait it out, or decide when you need to be less gentle than you ideally want to be and do what you need to be a good mom without violence or abuse in return. That's about it.

Quote:

Because she's 3.5. Not because I'm bad. Not because I don't have a gentle, half-hour routine full of fun and relaxing stories. Not because the room isn't the right temperature, or there isn't white noise, or she hasn't had a say in her pyjamas and her blanket. Not because we haven't hugged. Because, in her own words:

"I need something."
"What do you need, baby?"
"I need something besides sleep."
"You don't want to sleep."
"No, I want to not sleep."
"You don't want to go to bed, you want to be awake."
"Yeah, I want it to be day."
"I understand, you want to do the fun day things. It's night, though. When we wake up..."

She jumps out of bed at this point, and says, "Morning!". We've explored the possibility of nightmares, fear of the dark, the comfort of her bed, sounds at night, blah blah blah.
Yeah, I know. It's exhausting. I just have to keep going back to "Goodnight Benjamin, I love you."

I stopped talking about what we would do when we woke up because then he would be up for another hour excited about tomorrow. Instead when it is time, and I decide it is time. I just say "Goodnight, Benjamin, I love you." and apart from water, bathroom, or a hug that's it for the me meeting your needs times (obviously when he's sick that's different) "Goodnight, Benjamin, I love you."

This phase of needing to do this EVERY night began to fade around 4, and now it's once every like ten days or something...maybe to do with the moons or something? I dunno.

Quote:

Nope. She's just a normal 3.5 year old and there's nothing I can do.








infuriating, isn't it?

Quote:

However, I have a responsibility to get her to bed so she can function normally. KWIM?
Yes you do, but she also has a responsibility to meet you half way. If she can't do that, she will need to live with some logical consequences as well, for example when DS was refusing bedtime and waking up exhausted and cranky, most of which I got the brint of at 3pm when he came home even MORE exhausted, I finally decided to write his teacher a note letting her know he was tired because he refused to sleep the night before and asked her to send him home if he acted out at all. An hour later I got the call. I told him his teachers asked me not to let him come to school so tired anymore. I put him to bed an hour earlier each night he refused to go to bed. I kept him home once or twice the next day and made him spend the morning in bed with the lights off "catching up on sleep".

I made staying up late not so much fun. It was HELL on me, who had to stay home with a very cranky unhappy little boy, but it didn't take him too long to see the benefits of sleep.

I still need to remind him now and then. But it is WAY less often and as I mentioned we now have MUCH earlier bedtime, which has really helped. Does it mean he gets less outside time? yes, but it works for US.

Quote:

Yeah, but I'm just saying, this is no more gentle than being honest about it and telling her up-front, you know? Why bother shoving choices she disagrees with in her face when I could just tell her "nope!"
Well we will have to agree to disagree. I know it is more gentle to let a child know that they have their own autonomy and to help them acknowledge that THEY are making the choice right now. That the consequence they are about to face is avoidable according to their choices. Much more gentle than a "No, end of discussion, now please stop talking or go away. It allows them a safe place to verbalize their arguments, and voice their opinions and vocalize their frustrations without being told, "your thoughts are invalid and I do not want to even HEAR them. Shut up." It allows them the boundaries of reality with an arena to explore other possibilities...because you are not IGNORING them, you ARE listening, you just aren't changing your stance...except when they strike on an answer that makes sense. NO closes all conversation and shuts down communication. No says "You don't count and you are not even allowed to _speak_ your mind on this issue" There is no where to go with NO but into total meltdown implosion. I have seen it happen with my own kid and his father. I have seen it happen with my niece and her Gran and her mom.

Quote:

I'm just saying, presenting these choices is only more gentle than brute honesty when they are a genuine distraction for a younger child. Not when presented to a child that can see that this is just a distraction technique.

I can only speak for my kid. It is not in any way a distraction for him. I don't think it takes a particularly bright kid to see that it has nothing to do with a reality and everything to do with the adult asserting authority and control over the situation (which is okay...in many ways they are searching for that sense of order, for SOMEONE to be in control and make unbreakable rules -- hence the constant pushing). It isn't aboput distracting him, it is a way for ME to keep my sanity. It is a coping mechanism for ME. I need to keep repeating my statement not because I am not listening but because I need to stay resolute and strong and not break down in tears, because sometimes I want to give in. Sometimes I want to say, "Okay have graham crackers for dinner and stay up til 2am and spit on me...I GIVE UP!!!!" I am too tired and stressed to deal with this abusive little need machine...OKAY! What do I care? Rot your teeth, get pneumonia, be sleep deprived...who cares?!

By repeating a choice or a statement I:

A) make up my mind that these are the two ways I am going to end this (always listening if the kid can come up with a better solution, yet).

B) do not allow myself to be sucked into toddler logic and can remain calm and not feel personally attacked.

C) Remain serene through the chaos and remind myself that I am not inflicting this on him, he is choosing the negative logical consequence over the positive natural consequence because the negative natural consequence is too severe for him to undertsnad and I must protect him from that.

and often as I am carrying out the negative logical consequence I have to remind myself, I am not being a monster, I am not garbage to be thrown out, He does not really hate me. I am being a good mom by giving him food instead of ice cream. I AM.

It's entirely about empowering myself and remaining calm. It has nothing to do with distracting a toddler. As if you could with anything less than a parade of clowns and balloons and the cast of Lazy Town dancing through your living room...even with similar distractions DS has been known to go right back to his bone the moment the distraction has ended.









Quote:

So what do I do?!?!
You do whatever works and gets you through toddlerhood with your sanity in tact and dignity salvagable.







Whatever it takes, mama!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Perfect life? GD = letting your kid hit?

I really don't get it. Either it's all the time and so overwhelming you are talking about handing your child over to CPS or it's just 3 pesky behaviors that aren't really that big a deal. I can't follow.

If you think your kid looks at parental kindness as weakness then I'd start there.

If your kid truly thinks that parental kindness is weakness (which I do not believe), then sleep and time-outs might be the least of your worries.


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:

The nicer I am to her, though, the more she tests. Like, "Oh, you're being gentle and lenient? Let's see... how far does that lean?"
It is absolutely normal and expected that she would test. She tests how much she can trust you. She needs to know, subconsciously, whether the gentleness is for real, whether it will last. She can sense another gimmick, another "attempt" to "deal" with her.

When you are gentle, she will test boundaries until she knows she can trust you. The important thing here is for you to wait it out, and consider this as an adjustment period.

You can't expect immediate results. You shouldn't expect a quick magical solution. Parenting a strong willed child isn't easy. It is exhausting. It feels like it will never end. I've been there, I know. And it does get better.

If you think that you were gentle once and she still did something undesirable, and now it is all ruined and you need another strategy, then you are not giving it enough time, and not letting the process to start working. Being gentle works. But it takes time. And it is totally worthwhile, because it is a long term solution.

Also, being gentle does not necessarily mean to be lenient.

ETA:
Also, if you are on the path to gentle parenting, you don't have to be 100% perfect. If you lose it, you are not a failure. You can always just restart, re do, and keep on going. Even if you are at 70%, you are still doing awesome. As more trust develops between you two, and as your DD matures, it will be easier and easier.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)




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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Yeah, but I'm just saying, this is no more gentle than being honest about it and telling her up-front, you know? Why bother shoving choices she disagrees with in her face when I could just tell her "nope!"

I'm just saying, presenting these choices is only more gentle than brute honesty when they are a genuine distraction for a younger child. Not when presented to a child that can see that this is just a distraction technique....

...You're just prolonging the argument. I am trying to avoid arguments. My illustrative answers were just to highlight this. That she's not going to give up. I"m not saying she's smart. I'm saying she DOESN'T GIVE UP. There is no WORD or ANSWER that is going to end the argument. Not one.

Well, that's the thing; I am NOT prolonging the argument. I am ending it. The choices are his if he is willing to choose; when he becomes unwilling to choose, I choose for him. That is the natural consequence. I am not emotionally invested in it either way and I am not going to engage in an argument with him over it.

As hakeber noted:
_It's entirely about empowering myself and remaining calm. It has nothing to do with distracting a toddler._

By empowering myself and letting my son know what I am WILLING to do, I give him the opportunity to work with me. GD _isn't_ about him always getting his own way; it is about me _gently teaching_ him how to live in a world where he will not always get his own way, a world where he is going to have to make wise choices and where he will need to be able to communicate with the other citizens around him.

Incidentally one of the other things we discuss is that it is okay to have whatever feelings you are feeling but it is NOT okay to take them out on others. You are welcome to feel angry with me; you are not welcome to yell at me or call me names or be rude. My son will come to me and tell me, "Mama, I am very angry with you right now!"

To which I then respond, "I am sorry to hear that. I love you, my son." And I go on about my day. This gives him the freedom, comfort and space to be angry without worrying that I will stop loving him. When I am angry or frustrated with him, I do the same. "My son, I am very angry with you right now." We're very big on modeling here.


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## Quaniliaz (Oct 11, 2002)

You've gotten lots of good ideas here - and I know none of them will be a magic bullet for you. But they're tools - give them a shot.

DD1 was very similar at 3. It was the hardest age for me to deal with. She's 7 now - we all survived. Four was a little easier, five even more so, and it just kept getting better.

Hang in there, mama.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Had to stop reading after 4 pages so I can wake up with the kiddos tomorrow morning but just wanted to put in my two cents in case these points haven't been raised.

First of all





















. Not in exactly your situation but I can relate. DD is 3.5 and it's been power struggle hell since DS was born 8mos ago. When DD hit the toddler phase I really didn't know what to do for discipline and didn't expect her to listen to me (nobody else ever has) so I let stuff go that I probably shouldn't have. When that started to backfire we got really coercive for awhile because teeth need to get brushed and mommy needed to get to work on time. When she hit three, it became apparent what a hole I had dug for myself and I've been digging myself out ever since







Second kid's a do-over right? (kidding. sort of.) We also try to have high standards in our home, keep things tidy, meals on time, etc. I am just not a let-it-go, this-too-shall-pass kind of person. I try to understand age appropriateness but just because a behavior is developmentally normal doesn't mean it's acceptable.

I don't agree with the advice you are getting from a lot of PP to be playful. I'm not a playful person either and I would rather gouge my eyes out than play princess fairy ballerina when I am in a perfectly happy good mood so there is no.freaking.way that I'm going to do that in an argument. It sounds like you're putting a ton of stress on yourself to be someone that you're not. I am of the view that my job as a mom is to raise good kids, not to entertain them (unless I want to.)

I have taken a lot of parenting ideas from Alyson Schafer. You might be able to use her ideas for cutting down on attention-seeking behavior and power struggles. For us cutting down on the power dynamic has meant structure in the form of rules and routines, with DD getting as much input as possible into both. I have also tried to find ways for DD to feel empowered at home without winning arguments, helping to make big decisions and participating in projects so she feels important. I also found Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles had helpful information about temperament in there which allowed me to be more accepting of DD for who she is and let go of the guilt over having a difficult child. Yeah some of our problems were caused by me, but a lot of the oppositional stuff is just her temperament.

I know you are not having much luck with reasoning and democratic decision making, but I've been trying it off and on with my DD for 6mos and she really is getting better at it. Don't lose hope.

I sure don't have all the answers but just know you're not in it alone. As DD gets closer to four I realize that she's made a LOT of progress, although it felt like it was going at a glacial pace. Since she's turned three she's become toilet trained, learned to get herself ready, stopped wasting my time during the bedtime routine, cut way down on aggression towards other kids, etc... gotta go baby crying!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Thanks everyone.

Okay, not pregnant... I think I was a "little bit pregnant" but I don't see how I could be now.

I guess I will just have to accept being followed around and spoken rudely to at times.  That is okay. Someday, as you all have pointed out, it will magically stop. If it doesn't, I will take her to a therapist and THEY can figure out how to make her stop talking trash without physically stopping her.

Because with my kid, arguments don't end. They just go on and on, unless I ignore her, which as it has been pointed out here is not gentle or loving, and I don't want to be that passive-aggressive parent that is not gentle. I want to do the gentle thing. I want to empathize with how she feels. I do want to. I don't want to ignore, isolate, or get angry.

I want to be peaceful, empathetic, appreciative and loving all the time. I know I can do it. If other people are doing it, I CAN do it. It is just a matter of lowering my expectations. I will give it a couple years, and if she hasn't stopped hitting, I will re-post.

Thanks. At least I can have peace about this.

The only thing is now the baby is starting to hit when angry, too, which does make me kind of sad but I suppose she will grow out of it, too.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Further proof that my entire parenting strategy has obviously messed up my child beyond belief:

Quote:

Some children find this new limit exciting and what to test it out, however, after a night or two, most children prefer to void before bed and since they no longer have a successful stalling / attention tactic, they just get on with going to bed.
Nope. We're going on ONE YEAR and she still goes to the bathroom (without peeing) at least once, usually twice, before falling asleep, unless I sit with her and tell her if she can't pee in the toilet she needs to go in her bed, because it is just too late to wait for pee on the toilet.

She never goes that often during the day.







What am I doing wrong? I usually don't pay ANY MIND when she goes, though after I go to bed, if she's still wide awake, I do have to do something, because I need to sleep. Are those once-monthly toilet sessions ruining it?

This woman talks about a few days!

I should never look at new parenting sites. They only serve to make me feel worse about my family.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

First, You need to stop measuring yourself up to the exectations of parenting guides. They HAVE to say that or their books won't sell. Nothing I have ever tried in a book worked like a charm in a night or two...total BS. Most kids at the toddler stage especially crave that predictable routine and when it is disrupted their lives are entirely up for question from every angel. I move around a lot as part of my work and also because I like it. It sounds to me like your DD has to put up with some pretty sudden shifts in schedule and routine, too. That means every routine or method you want to try out is going to take (IME) about 6 mo to a year longer to take any effect. Because not only do you need to establish this new regime, but you also have to convince them that despite Daddy's coming and going, or despite living in a new house or a new country, this regime remains the same.

Not many kids are willing to swallow that pill.

These books and sites (this site included) and advice columns are just other people sounding off. Some of them are not even parents. If you get what seems like a good idea, try it, but please do not ever measure yourself against their success. You are not doing anything wrong. You are just human.

Do you want to know what I truthfully believe?

I believe all the tactics and tricks and tools in a parent's discipline tool box is MOSTLTY about making sure the parents keep their sanity through these years, because by the time any of them had a chance to take effect or have a _long lasting_ result, he had probably outgrown the behavior anyway.

Seriously. Deep down I think it's all just about psychologically tricking myself into not reacting violently to the triggers my son is particularly capable of pulling. Remain calm. Remember the rules (sometimes more for me than him, because believe me I got some hum dinger insults I could fly right back at him, but I must refrain and that requires serious concentration and mantra repetition). And respond with love and firmness.

It is also a convenient way to re-write history. My mother likes to say things like "when you were young, you would wake up at 3 and 4 am and I would a snack for you and you would play alone in your room and then go back to bed." "When you were three I taught you the alphabet and by 4 and half you were reading yourself to bed at night." "When you were 3 you almost never had tantrums."

All of these statements are utterly false to hear my dad and older sister tell the tale. Parents delude themselves that the years behind them were easier than they really were. I am sure if I went through my posts here I would find a gazillion references where I was being altogether as truthful as I can but if someone held it up to a video of our lives at the time, I was not as calm and serene as I sound here. It was more like "







Benjamin!!!! STOP! I WILL NOT COME UP AGAIN!!!! GO!! TO!!!! SLEEP!!!!!!!!!







...I love you, Benjamin,Goodniiiiiight.







"

Don't beat yourself up if some dippy trick on the internet makes it seem like magic. Nothing is magic. Benjamin tried the I have to go pee pee trick with me. On the third night I told him if he didn't really pee I would take him to the doctors to see if he had a urinary tract infection and he asked what they would do, so I told him that they would have to stick a q-tip in the tip of his penis and test it to see if he had any problems and then if he did they would probably have to give him some medicine.

He didn't pull that stunt for the rest of the night and the next few nights, we were in the clear. But then every few weeks he'd try it out again. This is the thing...nothing is EVER gone for good, IME. They will go back to and back to and back to the old habits.

I left DS wide awake last night playing (but DD shares a bedroom with me, so this is not a problem.) or telling himself stories. He had a story and a song and I was KNACKERED, so I went to bed. I could hear him singing and talking to his stuffed animals for the next hour or so...but I was too damn tiredd to do anything about it. He took himself to the bathroom as needed and went back to bed. I presume he drifted off at some point.

I tell you this not to make you feel bad, but to say that between 2 and half and 4 and half his bedtime routine was more often than not tears and long drawn out stalling and huge arguments or incredibly long routines leaving me EXHAUSTED and him seemingly smug.







But over the last year there has been a shift, and I don't think I did anything differently but neither was I a regime machine. I was just me and he has just gotten older and more understanding when I say things like "mommy is pooped...I can't stay awake anymore, goodnight." or "Mommy and Daddy need some alone time. I'll check in on you again in ten minutes" and those same phrases would have been met with RAGE and sadness two years ago, now he accepts with less fighting. And now I would say the ratio is closer to 60% good nights and 40% terrible nights. However, seeing as we are moving country in three days, I have myself prepared that when we arrive in the new house, it will be a rough transition and it will be like going back a full year. I am bracing myself for the worst.

Seriously though, you have to remember when reading websites that it is a business. If she said "expect them to push this for the next two years." who would READ her website? Obviously she is selling her brand. Just like I don't believe Pantene is any better than Suave, I don't believe any "expert" has all the answers. never make a book your bible (well except your bible







) and never let an expert make you feel bad.

ETA: only YOU know what goes on in YOUR house, and only you know what is best for your daughter. The ONLY thing that really helps me best of all is turning around my vision of Discipline. I am a teacher so it is more natural for me to evaluate learning and adjust my teaching style to suit my students, even if they are my kids, but once I started seeing my job as a parent and the job of discipline in particular as teaching, DH (also a teacher) and I were able to face each conflict with the idea of what do we want DS to learn here? and developing a strategy that worked to that end. It also helped us to remember that we have never ever met a student who learned a lesson in one or two repetitions. Usually they need at least six and some more string willed students may even need a repeat YEAR or two to get it right. Helped me immensely in not losing my cool...but I still DO!


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

peeing was always a battle of ours. But there came a point where I knew she was in control of her bowels- so that if she had an accident, it was because of her being stubborn. Nobody- even demon children like to be covered in pee, so I started to let it go. As long as she "tries" when I request (not without a battle mind you), she is in control of her body. And that is what it's all about. And it's totally normal for this age- especially for girls I think. When she stop wearing diapers, I would take her pee right before I went to sleep- whether or not she peed before bed. That seemed to be fine. my dd was alos soembody that didn't really pee alot unless I was forcing tea on her because of illness. I have a friend that forces her kid to pee and he gets sooo enraged, that to myself I feel like what's the big deal. At some point you have to start believing in them, and trusting in their own bodies. Even if they make mistakes (and it's PITA to clean, etc- I see red myself) that's what their job is! Going to the bathroom is the ONE thing that no one can make them do. And I was always a little afraid that if I tried too hard, she would be one of those kids that would use it for vengence, like a big FU. Not into that LOL
Don't know if that helps, but I would def. stay away from those other parenting sites. I think they are such BS. That lady sounds like she's never had kids...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't know. My second baby is so much easier than my first. My theory is that someone has an easy kid, like my second, and thinks the child is easy because of their mad parenting skillz instead of the child's temperament, and then makes websites and writes books to share their knowledge with us all, thinking if we did what they did, our kids would also be quiet and sweet and sleep well and not fight.

And then maybe they have another child who is not so docile. LOL. I wonder if they ever update their info after the second child.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't know. My second baby is so much easier than my first. My theory is that someone has an easy kid, like my second, and thinks the child is easy because of their mad parenting skillz instead of the child's temperament, and then makes websites and writes books to share their knowledge with us all, thinking if we did what they did, our kids would also be quiet and sweet and sleep well and not fight.

And then maybe they have another child who is not so docile. LOL. I wonder if they ever update their info after the second child.









How true!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have one like this who loves to argue. I would suggest The Secret of Parenting also. I find that roboparenting and not engaging are my best options, although they can be hard to do. Repeat the expectation over and over like a robot. Remain calm. "Wait for the bus." Be boring.

I don't agree that ignoring is not gentle. Probably it hurts some kids. It doesn't seem to hurt mine, and ignoring her is often the way to avoid my doing something worse (yelling, losing my temper).

BTW, empathizing does not work with my DD. Playful parenting stopped working in the 2s (she just ups the ante and gets wild). Some kids need more limits and harder walls than others. My younger child is completely different--cries if I speak firmly to him, accepts boundaries much more easily, and apologizes of his own accord.

I will add that I see some positive aspects to this personality type. DD never gives up, whether that is about learning to swim or arguing her point!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Also. Is she very bright? Is she an extrovert? Does she have a very long attention span, perhaps? (We have often joked that we wish DD had a shorter attention span.) Perhaps she needs more stimulation and more time with others. My DD is a huge extrovert and is smarter than we know what to do with. She desperately needs to have her mind engaged or she will create her own challenges and drama. Things have improved a lot since she learned to read. What does your DD like? Can you find something that will involve her deeply?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Also also. You do realize that you are rejecting every suggestion and idea, right? I have been in that place of despair (NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, I HAVE TRIED IT ALL AND NOTHING WORKS) and I get it, but I think maybe you just need to vent? I don't think you are ready to hear any of the ideas being given here, really. Like I say, I get it, I really do, but I want to make sure you see that.


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

So I read more posts in this thread, wondering how come it got so long. Here is my free short analysis of the issue.









Observations: It seems that the OP has a child whose mind thrives on arguments. the OP doesn't like when HER DD is argumentative. the OP is QUITE argumentative herself









Yet it seem that OP wants her DD to stop being argumentative (two similarly strong personalities often clash), but this is not going to happen. In the same way as the OP is not going to just stop being argumentative for the sake of others. (nothing wrong in this per se)

You can't change one's personality. The OP needs to start seeing this personality trait as something awesome, though currently very challenging in her kid. And needs to start seeing herself as quite similar to her kid, personality wise. This is a child who won't just succumb to peer pressure. This is a child who is a leader, not a follower. These are great traits. Very hard to nurture, often hard to be around for long periods of time, but great traits nevertheless.

Embrace your traits, and your DD's traits for what they are. Try not to out-argue her, as it is obvious dozens of parents here can't "out-argue" you








Being 3 is HARD. Being an argumentative 3 is even harder. Ride the wave, do your best, support her in WHO SHE IS, and it will be easier sooner than later.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I don't agree that ignoring is not gentle. Probably it hurts some kids. It doesn't seem to hurt mine, and *ignoring her is often the way to avoid my doing something worse (yelling, losing my temper*).











IMO ignoring is not "not gentle" when it is consciously used as a technique to deal with a child (or adult) who persists in pulling you into a pointless argument. A person, big or small, who succeeds in doing this (over and over again as a pattern) has got your number and is yanking your chain. When this is a pattern, it's not about the subject of the argument - it's about control of the situation. Deciding to actively disengage yourself from this type of game is a decision on your part to take control of your _own_ actions. IMO it is _gentler_ than being determined to out-argue a young child, or staying in an interaction until your temper explodes. It is you deciding to let go of your end of the rope and be in control of _yourself_. If the other person chooses to stand there and hold the limp rope and scream, fine - their choice. But it is not unkind to disengage, offer the child a way to save face (ie offering a change of subject _after_ disengaging) and regardless of the child's decision on their own behavior, move on with your day.

I came back to add...disengaging is not refusing to hear the child. You can acknowledge what they said, that you heard them, and what you are deciding. You can acknowledge their feelings about it. You can show that you hear and empathize with the child without opening negotiations.

Also regarding bedtime....the book I read (Setting Limits With Your Strong Willed Child) stressed the importance of observing what kind of dance you and your child do in your difficult areas...and then, learn to skip the dance entirely and go straight to action. We have almost no bedtime routine in our house. They have a snack, put on jammies, and brush teeth all in the kitchen, followed by a quick trip to the potty. Once they go upstairs it is straight to bed. No hugs, games, stories, etc. We do all of that way before bedtime and we do it downstairs. Once they are in their bedrooms, they get into their beds and that is it - just "goodnight". No games to play.







If they get up to use the bathroom after that, it's just a functional bathroom trip and nothing else.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

The OP needs to start seeing this personality trait as something awesome, though currently very challenging in her kid. And needs to start seeing herself as quite similar to her kid, personality wise. This is a child who won't just succumb to peer pressure. This is a child who is a leader, not a follower. These are great traits. Very hard to nurture, often hard to be around for long periods of time, but great traits nevertheless.
ITA. I remind myself often of the above when it comes to dealing with my own hard-headed, tenacious, stubborn, independent little person. I was a bit shy to be the first to say that the OP is pretty argumentative too, but OP, you are.







I am too, by the way! It's part of why my DD and I clash so much.

Another suggestion, FWIW: can you give her more independence and responsibilities? This helps with my DD.


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

My dd used be so hard to put to sleep, and then I read ~somewhere~ that when a child has trouble going to bed, it's because it's a seperation issue. That put a new spin on it for me and helped me figure out a new way of dealing with it- one where I didn't engage, but kept it matter of fact, and *tried* to not get angry when she pulled and pushed so hard. She was just having trouble letting me go. And it was up to me to teach her to feel safe by herself and how to disengage with me.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

Also also. You do realize that you are rejecting every suggestion and idea, right? I have been in that place of despair (NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, I HAVE TRIED IT ALL AND NOTHING WORKS) and I get it, but I think maybe you just need to vent? I don't think you are ready to hear any of the ideas being given here, really. Like I say, I get it, I really do, but I want to make sure you see that.
This is not true. I've posted twice about ideas that I have taken up and that are working well: making everything into a challenge (which is still working and which she loves), and... okay, that is the only idea that has worked. LOL. But it has really worked well! Because it's an action that redirects her that she can't refuse because she loves it SO MUCH.

Because other ideas really are not working! I can't emphasize enough how words just don't do it. I really cannot. I keep getting posts that begin with "I say..."

I don't need any words. I need actions. She is not hearing the words, or she argues with them. Repetition does not have an effect on her because she just hears "no" and as I mentioned... that's a challenge for her.

Also, there are some things that I'm already doing, and I don't think mentioning that is rejection. Sorry, I was very hormonal so it definitely came off badly but I do model, I do allow for play time, we do have choices, I do try to keep her to a sleep routine, and so on.

But I came here because I was at the end of my rope, and that means I really, really have tried a lot.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minxie* 
Well, that's the thing; I am NOT prolonging the argument. I am ending it. The choices are his if he is willing to choose; when he becomes unwilling to choose, I choose for him. That is the natural consequence. I am not emotionally invested in it either way and I am not going to engage in an argument with him over it.

If you do something, you end it. If you talk, you prolong it. So my question is, when you end it, what do you do to make him stop talking?

Do you see what I'm asking? So, "choosing for him" is an example of that. Giving a false choice is not, in my experience.

Quote:

The OP needs to start seeing this personality trait as something awesome, though currently very challenging in her kid.
I know she's awesome! She's mine! Doesn't change the fact that I have to deal with it, though. It's fine to say, "Wow, you're really persistent. That will help you later in life!" again and again, and another thing to explain to your husband why you're sorry, but he'll just have to wait in the rain because DD wants to wear shoes that are too small and in the closet and you cannot physically fit them on her feet, so here we are... you know?

I'm not saying, she's bad.

I'm saying, help me deal with this in a way that does not damage her psychologically or cause me to end up in a looney bin.

Quote:

They have a snack, put on jammies, and brush teeth all in the kitchen, followed by a quick trip to the potty. Once they go upstairs it is straight to bed. No hugs, games, stories, etc. We do all of that way before bedtime and we do it downstairs. Once they are in their bedrooms, they get into their beds and that is it - just "goodnight". No games to play. If they get up to use the bathroom after that, it's just a functional bathroom trip and nothing else.
So, let's supposed you did this with them for a year, and a la Supernanny, kept bringing them back to bed, without a word except "good night", back to bed, back to bed, back to bed.

Right?

And it just doesn't end. And for two hours, every night, after the routine, whatever it may be, you have a child that doesn't get it. Even though the child is yawning and struggling and falling asleep on car trips and showing every sign of being tired, the child doesn't want to go to bed.

Right?

See where I'm going?

You do the "perfect" routine and it just... doesn't work. Not the first night. Not the second. Not the third. It just... doesn't.

That is where we are.

We do not have a song and dance. We have exactly your routine, except yes I read the stories with them sitting in their beds.

I did try a week of stories on the couch. I will just say... wow, that was a bad idea for our family, LOL! They stayed up longer, even baby was wound up (even on day seven).

What I'm trying to say is not, that's not a good routine. What I'm saying is, when the routine doesn't work, long or short... It's not the routine.

The separation thing is interesting, because I do go back and check on her every three minutes until she's asleep and that USED to work. Stopped working. Perhaps it was our vacation, how could I not have seen that? We all slept in one tent and I know she liked it although she did say she wanted to go back to her own comfortable bed.

Hm. We will talk about that with her today.

Quote:

You can show that you hear and empathize with the child without opening negotiations.
I'd love to hear the mechanics of this. Like, a sample conversation of what makes the child stop pushing the limit. Ultimately, I suspect it ends in walking away from or not responding to a talking, crying, or arguing child.

Remember the Far Side cartoon with the dog? (Sorry to compare my child to a dog.) And the owner is saying, "Fetch, Spot! Go fetch the stick, Spot! Fetch it now, Spot!" And so on, and the dog hears: "Blah blah, Spot! Blah blah blah blah, Spot! Blah blah blah, Spot!"

I suspect a similar thing is happening with my child.

"You feel upset you can't have Nutella. I hear you. What a disappointment. But we need to go. Dad needs us. This is not negotiable."

=

"Attention! Keep talking! You have my attention! Go ahead and keep talking! Hi! I'm looking at you! You have my attention and therefore you still have a chance! Here's your chance! Keep talking!"

"I'm done." = "Here's one more chance to respond!"

"I'm going to leave the room to get stuff done." = "Go on, here's another challenge! Go for it! Go for it! Tantrum, FTW!"

"I'm sorry, discussion is over." = "Here's more attention! One more chance! Let's see if you can disagree with this one, woohoo!"

"I'm serious." = "Game on!"










Yes, I validate. That is not where our problem is. Our problem is, after validation, we need to MOVE ON.

It is the MOVE ON part that we have issues with.

And yes, we are a talkative, argumentative family. It is not that that I don't like. It is argumentative minus logic and empathy that is difficult to deal with, haha. And that is where we are.

However, I will repeat that challenges have helped immensely, and also I decided to give myself time-outs. I know it is to some extent isolating for her and I am sorry for that but she needs to calm down and not to have my face in front of her so that she can do that. So, I won't keep her in time-out, but I will keep myself away from her with shut doors that she cannot open, for three minutes or less while I breathe deeply.

I don't think we can do the hitting any other way.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
If you do something, you end it. If you talk, you prolong it. So my question is, when you end it, what do you do to make him stop talking?

Do you see what I'm asking? So, "choosing for him" is an example of that. Giving a false choice is not, in my experience.

I think you may misunderstand. I don't give my son false choices; I give my son choices with which I can live. The choice is for HIM; the disengagement is that I don't care which choice he makes. He is welcome to offer a third alternative so long as that works for all parties concerned. If he will not choose or offer an alternative to the choices within a reasonable amount of time, I choose for him. Period.

Your continued description of choices as "false choices" is kind of starting to irk me so I hope that clarifies it. If not, please explain why you feel offering him a choice is a "false choice".

There aren't any "false choices" and I don't care whether he stops talking or not. His continuing to talk is not going to dissuade me from the path we're taking. I listen to him, I empathize with him but ultimately I am his mother and he is my child.

Also I don't entertain rudeness in any form, be it hitting, screaming, biting or arguing. If he can speak to me politely and wants to discuss something, sure. If he is being rude, he is welcome to be elsewhere. If he doesn't want to be elsewhere, I can remove myself. If none of that works, then yes, I will ignore him until he is ready to be polite. He's four; he knows better.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

EdnaMarie, I am offering these responses hoping that you will take them in a positive way, because I am really trying to offer you help. You sound mentally very stuck in a groove that you are frustrated with being in, but have a hard time seeing a way out of. I know how frustrating that can be. I also know that when you don't have a way to get any distance from your own situation, to get a more detached look at it, it can appear so overwhelming. Our little ones can seem like hugely overwhelming and powerful people who have near complete control of us. Sometimes we do not see our own part in the situation, or we don't realize that we have built ourselves into a puzzle of conditions that cannot possibly all be met. I am not responding to be argumentative. I want to clear up the parts of my previous post that you have asked questions about.

I have been in a situation very similar to the one you are in now. Our kids are 2.5 yrs apart. I was home with a baby and a very spirited, intense, persistent, defiant 3 yo. I reached the point of dreading when he would get up each day (at 6 am or before), not enjoying our time together, being completely exhausted past tears most of many days, and very much resenting him for ruining the time when I just wanted to enjoy my new (much easier) baby. It was awful. I am offering what I can from my own experience because I read one book that completely changed my perspective and when I put it into action and _really_ meant it and followed it through, it changed our lives.

I had to be at the end of my rope in order to do it, and I was. It was not easy. It did permanently alter the texture of our relationship and that is hard when patterns that have been there since toddlerhood are so ingrained. But it has been all positive. The new dynamic was a much better solution for all of us. We are all happy with each other. We enjoy our time together. I am not exhausted by constant struggles and living at the edge of my temper all day every day. In some ways it felt like I got to know our DS1 for the first time, because I was finally able to experience a more pleasant part of his personality. We were locked into a negative, exhausting, pointless dynamic of intense struggle. Breaking out of it was life changing. That is why I am responding in your thread. You can choose to do whatever you want. I am hoping to describe an alternative that might be a way through this for you.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


I don't need any words. I need actions. She is not hearing the words, or she argues with them.


She may choose to not hear your words, or to argue more. _You_ choose whether or not to pick that rope back up.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


If you do something, you end it. If you talk, you prolong it. So my question is, when you end it, what do you do to make him stop talking?


You cannot make another person stop talking. You are in control of how you respond to the talking.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


I'm saying, help me deal with this in a way that does not damage her psychologically or cause me to end up in a looney bin.


IMO disengaging from a pointless argument after you have let her know you heard her and acknowledged her feelings is not going to damage her psychologically. Upset her, perhaps. Damage, no.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


So, let's supposed you did this with them for a year, and a la Supernanny, kept bringing them back to bed, without a word except "good night", back to bed, back to bed, back to bed.

Right?

And it just doesn't end. And for two hours, every night, after the routine, whatever it may be, you have a child that doesn't get it. Even though the child is yawning and struggling and falling asleep on car trips and showing every sign of being tired, *the child doesn't want to go to bed.*

Right?

See where I'm going?

You do the "perfect" routine and it just... *doesn't work*. Not the first night. Not the second. Not the third. It just... doesn't.


Perhaps it's how you define "work". At our house the point is not that he _wants_ to. We don't need him to _want_ to. Yes, we have walked a kid back to bed over and over again for over two hours, night after night. After a while (yes, perhaps a year) it stuck. And he never needed to want to.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


We do not have a song and dance.


You do have a dance. She talks. You respond. Repeat.

I believe she knows that if she talks, you feel obligated to say something in return. So it's pretty easy for her to keep you going.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


I'd love to hear the mechanics of this. Like, a sample conversation of what *makes the child stop pushing the limit*. Ultimately, I suspect it ends in walking away from or not responding to a talking, crying, or arguing child.


Yes, it does end this way ! It ends in me _disengaging _after I have said and done all I feel obligated to say or do. And until you can take on the responsibility of doing that, frankly, I think you will be stuck. I cannot _make_ him stop pushing the limit. I cannot _make_ him agree and like it. Those are in his control, not mine. He can push all day long if he wants to. I can't stop that. But I do not have to wear myself out trying to get him to happily agree to the limit, or change the limit, or continue to respond to his pushing in a way that feels like there is a possibility for negotiation.

Here is a sample:
DS2: "I want a cone !" 
ME: "We don't have any cones. I can put it in a bowl." 
DS2: "I want a cone ! Bowls are stupid !" 
ME: "Here is your ice cream." 
DS2: "It's stupid !" 
ME: "You are mad because you wanted a cone and we are out. I will buy some next time I get groceries." 
DS2: "This is stupid ! I don't want it !" 
ME: "That is your dessert - nothing else. Eat it or don't."

Then, regardless of what he says next on the subject, we are done, because_ I_ am done.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


"You feel upset you can't have Nutella. I hear you. What a disappointment. But we need to go. Dad needs us. This is not negotiable."
=
"Attention! Keep talking! You have my attention! Go ahead and keep talking! Hi! I'm looking at you! You have my attention and therefore you still have a chance! Here's your chance! Keep talking!"

"I'm done." = "Here's one more chance to respond!"

"I'm going to leave the room to get stuff done." = "Go on, here's another challenge! Go for it! Go for it! Tantrum, FTW!"

"I'm sorry, discussion is over." = "Here's more attention! One more chance! Let's see if you can disagree with this one, woohoo!"

"I'm serious." = "Game on!"


I don't understand what you are waiting for...silence ? Agreement ? 
It is done _when you stop. _No matter what she does or says.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*


Yes, I validate. That is not where our problem is. Our problem is, after validation, we need to MOVE ON.

It is the MOVE ON part that we have issues with.


It's clear that you do have a problem with the "move on" step. You appear to be waiting for _her_ to move on. You seem to think that your objective is to get her to _agree_ to move on. This will only exhaust you. As the adult, _you_ are the one who initiates moving on, whether she agrees to it or not, and sticks to it. That doesn't mean you _say_ you are moving on but then keep the verbal volleys going back and forth. It means you _are _done. Really done, and no longer responding to the topic, and going on with your day. That is _action_.

There is another book I read that had one thing in it that has stuck with me. The book is Negotiation Generation: Take Back Your Parental Authority Without Punishment by Lynne Griffin. The one thing in it that made an impression on me was that with persistent kids, if you keep talking, they see the topic as still on the table. If it's not open to negotiation, don't negotiate it. Take the topic off the table...and when it's off the table, _you_ stop talking about it. Period.


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

When I want to move on and my dd doesn't, and she has pushed x 1000, *and* I still have control over my temper, then I will tell her very directly, in her face, without menace "enough" "I'm done" "I'm not going to talk anymore" "I had it- enough!" and I am. I turn away and either she changes her approach, or she has a tantrum in which I can walk away, or carry her to her room. Now this is not something that happens often and I think that is why it is still valid for her. It's not for the stupid stuff. It's for those times where she has run, and run, and run me ragged by her demands and complaints like a bulldog. Don't know how GD that is, but I feel like it's an important lesson to learn that there are other people in the universe, not just her, and though it's her inclination/ age, being able to let things go, and defer to someone else is important.
(side note- with your example of too small shoes- I would never had indulged her... I would have picked her up and forced her in the car







At times they are just not the priority of our lives... That would be a battle I would have won- though I would have had to listen to her, and run the risk of upsetting the baby, but I sometimes drive with the window all the way down when my dd has a fit in the car. That's the life with a 3 year old- it sucks but it is what it is)


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Laundry, what book?


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

The book that was the "big one" for me is called Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries by Robert J. Mac Kenzie.

Before that one, I had read _at least_ twenty other discipline books - all of them highly recommended GD books. Some of them were helpful with certain situations and I still have many of them and do recommend reading them, but overall they were never enough to make a major change in our dominant pattern of interaction with each other. ( I think some kids just need more firmly set limits, but it is always useful to have the background of positive-intent type thinking.) I had tried thinking in a Continuum Concept kind of way...and I had tried going more toward the non-coercive/consensual end of the spectrum...and finally tried 1-2-3 Magic, which was more like 1-2-3 Comedy, because it was a big joke to DS1. He was like hey, I can get away with something three whole times before she does anything about it, woo hoo ! The Setting Limits book method was the one that finally gave our son the firm structure he required to give up on his attempts to take control all the time. Then he relaxed and enjoyed being a fun little kid, and I really began to enjoy being his mom.

It is an approach that is perhaps more than most kids will need. But when I had a child who was still relentlessly searching for limits no matter how much time-in etc I gave him, all day every day, keeping us both in a state of locked-in negative misery, it was the next thing to do, and I'm so glad I did.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks Laundry,
That might be the one book I havent read yet lol.

To the op,
After reading through all of this I think my dd (now 7) is similar to yours.
Having a baby and a toddler at the same time is hard, Ive been there.
Do you think its possible to just cut yourself a little slack and relax mentally?
I mean- not get so aggravated about her behavior?
I know on the days that I can remain calm and not let these things effect me, they are easier to deal with. I wake up and tell my self to chill out and stay calm today. Sometimes it works.

When you said that part about damaging her emotionally or you ending up in the looney bin I know you dont mean it literally, but please chill out. It gets easier, but it also gets harder. You seem very patient and want to always do the right thing. You are NOT going to damage her because you care so much about her.
Just think about the fact that she's only 3. The challenges change and can become even twistyer (I made up that word) as they get older and smarter. If you can work on becoming nonreactive (even internally) it will help you deal with whats to come, because there isnt really anything you can do to stop it. Ive tried and still do- duh.

My dd can be almost impossible. It seems like as soon as I figure out the strategy to deal with her at each age, she moves onto the next phase of behavior stuff.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this already was suggested, but two ideas based on myexperience with my super high-needs ds. (who has a vocabulary andfunctions about a year ahead of his actual age, so like a 3.5 year old)

1) Really intense, almost therapeutic one on one play for 15 minutes twice daily. No matter what you have to do. This is hard sometimes, because when the baby does finally take a nap, I want to sit down myself, or get some housework done, or something, but instead I force my self to act excited and "ask" ds to "please, please play with me." He, too, will argue with me, run away, snatch toys, etc but eventually he gives in and then we do what he wants to do for 15 minutes. Very intense, totally focused on him. no answering the phone, nothing. I will say to him, "the phone is ringing but I'm too busy playing with you to answer it. they'll just have to wait."

2)Say, "Arguing with you exhausts me, ad makes me grouchy. today, I'm not arguing with you. If you argue, you have to go be by yourself until you're done." And if it isn't a life or death thing, stick her in her room. I know how harda$$ this sounds, but if you have to lock her in there, lock her in. Just flip the doorknob around so the lock is on the outside. of course, she might turn this into a game as well. Yelling "I'm done arguing!" so you have to come back and let her out, just to repeat the game ad nauseum. If she does that, set a timer, and tell her you will let her out when the timer buzzes, but you won't turn the timer on until she is quiet. If it is essential that it happen now, like if you have to go somewhere, just prepare yourself for a fight, put the baby in the carseat, then go back and get her and drag her kicking and screaming to the car, bucke her in and go. It definitely sucks. I do it every.single.frickin.day. with my 2.5 year old. I actually have a pinched nerve or something in my shoulder from physically restraining him. But i tell myself that when you have kidsthis is what you sign up for. I absolutely do not allow my ds to talk disrepesctfully to me. Into his room he goes.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:

I don't understand what you are waiting for...silence ? Agreement ?
It is done when you stop. No matter what she does or says.
So true.

Laundry, I thought that post was awesome. My child is not quite as challenging as the OPs, but of course she has her moments. I like the way you framed the problem and I'll be remembering your words for the next "moment."


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minxie* 
I think you may misunderstand. I don't give my son false choices; I give my son choices with which I can live. The choice is for HIM; the disengagement is that I don't care which choice he makes. He is welcome to offer a third alternative so long as that works for all parties concerned. If he will not choose or offer an alternative to the choices within a reasonable amount of time, I choose for him. Period.

Your continued description of choices as "false choices" is kind of starting to irk me so I hope that clarifies it. If not, please explain why you feel offering him a choice is a "false choice".

There aren't any "false choices" and I don't care whether he stops talking or not. His continuing to talk is not going to dissuade me from the path we're taking. I listen to him, I empathize with him but ultimately I am his mother and he is my child.

Sorry if the term "false choice" is offensive.

I think when a child wants one thing, and then is offered a choice between two or three different other things, when the reality is that aside from the needs of the parent and the necessity of narrowing things down, many more choices would be available to him, then he is being given a false choice.

I understand why this method is used with young toddlers asserting their independence. They want to feel in control; the choice gives the illusion of control while letting the parent maintain control. It's the illusory nature of the control that leads me to call it a "false" choice. "Blue or red otter pop?" is just easier to deal with than "Orange juice? Milk? Sliced apples? Carrot sticks? Otter pops? Butter and bread? Yoghurt?" And of course a small child would be overwhelmed by those choices anyway.

With older toddlers and pre-schoolers, however, the illusion of control is lost because they know what they want. You might as well just say "no" and give them whatever is easiest. Because you've already eliminated like, 90% of the choices, why not the last one as well? They're not getting what they really want, anyway.

You see what I'm saying? I'm not saying there's no choice. I'm saying, it's not the choice that is relevant to the child's desire to control the situation.

I mean, imagine if you put in for a three-bedroom bungalow and someone came up to you and asked whether you'd like to live on the third floor in a one-bedroom apartment, or on the tenth floor in a two-bedroom apartment (no elevators). You'd be like, WTH? And they said, "Look, it's a great choice, you can choose EITHER the one or two bedroom! Which do you prefer?"

You're going to say, "Well, you may have missed it, but I ordered a three-bedroom."

"One bedroom or two bedroom. Your choice."
"I don't know what's wrong with you, but I ordered--"
"I said one bedroom or two bedroom."
"Are you kidding me?"
"If you don't want an apartment, you don't have to have one. This is your last chance. If you don't choose, I'll choose for you."
"I choose the bungalow!!!"
"Okay, I'll choose for you. The one-bedroom."

Would you not be driven to distraction?

Now, suppose a kid asks for a sandwich but that's not an option. Offering an apple OR an orange, in my opinion, is going to fool a small child but not an older one because it's going to be that same ridiculous "false choice". Oh, sure, there's not a choice because you're in control.

But in that case just set out the apples and be done with it. None of this passive-aggressive apples-or-oranges-aren't-you-lucky-you-get-to-choose nonsense. That's not fooling anybody past the age of three.

Quote:

You do have a dance. She talks. You respond. Repeat.

I believe she knows that if she talks, you feel obligated to say something in return. So it's pretty easy for her to keep you going.
Actually, this was not going on until I found out that I can't put her in her room, and I decided this was the time to really, really try gentle discipline. I am not sure if you've read the whole thread but my problem is that I have decided to give up on two or three things that I decided were not gentle:

Time-outs
Ignoring
Bribes / punishments (removal of bribes / privileges)

So in fact, I was able to get away from the arguing before because I didn't reply. However, I did not think this was very gentle. So I was asking for ALTERNATIVES.

Quote:

Also. Is she very bright? Is she an extrovert? Does she have a very long attention span, perhaps? (We have often joked that we wish DD had a shorter attention span.) Perhaps she needs more stimulation and more time with others.
She is of average intelligence, I suppose, certainly within the realm of normal, with her own talents and weaknesses. I don't know if she has a long attention span. Not freakishly so. She is an extrovert which is why we spend a minimum of two hours with other kids each day for her, in addition to three hours at pre-school.

I wish I could provide more stimulation at home, of course. I should try to work in more thoughtful, challenging critical thinking games and learning events into our day. It is hard, though, especially as I have the baby who is also learning now. I can't set up science experiments or anything.

Quote:

And if it isn't a life or death thing, stick her in her room. I know how harda$$ this sounds, but if you have to lock her in there, lock her in.
Haha, you missed where I said this is what I'm trying to avoid.

You see, I know I can walk away from her. I know I can stick her in her room and lock the door. I know I can bribe and threaten. That's easy.

I guess I figured, when the poop hit the fan so to speak, GD advocates would have something really novel to deal with this. Some way to placate these kids that don't stop talking, pushing.

OF COURSE I don't have to answer. I don't want to answer. I'm tired of answering. I'm tired of arguing.

But I don't want her to feel like I don't care, either.

Quote:

Perhaps it's how you define "work". At our house the point is not that he wants to. We don't need him to want to. Yes, we have walked a kid back to bed over and over again for over two hours, night after night. After a while (yes, perhaps a year) it stuck. And he never needed to want to.
I can make her do stuff she doesn't want to do, though two hours of bedtime is beyond my capacity, physically--I'm the only one who bathes them, makes all the meals, does all the shopping, and this is even when my husband is home because he works on the side as well. But yeah, I guess I AM looking for a way to make her want to.

I *am* looking for the root of the problem, why my kid isn't working like every kid does, in every book, on every website, when they say, just do x, y, and z.

And it works, your child WILL COMPLY with what you SAY.

NOWHERE do they say, "Now, if your kid doesn't do this, stick them in their room and lock the door."

Or to ignore them.

Or to walk away and (presumably) kick them off / pry them off your leg and run away. (Did I mention that she gloms onto my leg when I do that? And the baby has to do it too... LOL...).

Or lock yourself in the kitchen.

So... that is where my frustration is coming from.

None of this is mentioned in the gazillions of parenting books, ESPECIALLY not gentle parenting books. It's like I did something wrong at age two and I'm paying for it now and I want to know what it was, and how to fix it before it gets worse. They don't mention that you have to get down to their level, and on the contrary, you are supposed to take the high road.

I just don't see how putting someone in the bedroom or ignoring is the high road. I can see why it's done, naturally, but I don't see it as the adult thing to do.

Quote:

side note- with your example of too small shoes- I would never had indulged her... I would have picked her up and forced her in the car
Yeah. It was totally hypothetical, but I do that (force her). I was thinking two things about this. First, that with two kids, I can't do that for much longer and second, that there are mamas who don't have to do that with their kids.

They don't have that because they know the words to use, the way to be, to avoid this conflict. But I don't because I never stayed around anyone like my DD long enough to hone those skills! I don't because somewhere along the line I messed up and now I have to get her back in line so that I can say in a calm, gentle, loving voice, "Honey, you look tired. How about a nice warm bath with sissy and then a bedtime story? You can get some rest." And then we do the bedtime routine and it's done.

Or "Please leave the room if you're going to speak to me that way." And she LEAVES.

Or whatever. YK? I just don't believe that my kid can be the one child with whom gentle discipline doesn't work. I just can't believe it. It really hurts me to think that. She was so sweet at two and yes we've had a tough time in the past year but we've also worked really hard to make her life consistent as possible given the circumstances.

Laundry, we get FREE classes in 1-2-3 Magic here and it's the laughingstock of the entire post. Nobody attends them. So sad that the only gentle discipline they offer is something that teaches kids not to listen...









Sorry, yes I am venting to a large extent but I really, really want to set something up that I can follow. I'm looking at the Setting Limits book but it does have punishment and that's something I'm familiar with already. My problems start when we remove consequences and just try to somehow get through to her as a human being.

So I don't think I'll get that book at the moment, but I'll keep it in mind, thank you.

Everyone here says GD works even with strong-willed children. My child is far within the realm of normal, so why isn't it working? I can't punish for hitting, I can't accept it, I can't ignore her, so what can I do?

Does anyone else see what I am talking about?

Does it EVER talk about ignoring in GD books?

Ever? Anywhere? Time-outs without the parent?

Because what I'm hearing are two answers:

Accept the hitting, this too shall pass. Oh, you can talk about it, but don't expect it to change.

and

Go ahead and do what you were doing, give her a time-out even if you have to physically restrain her by locking the door (now of course in case someone only reads just this post, I will repeat that this is three minutes and that I'm in earshot).

But not much else you can do.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If you have a toddler you're trying to get dressed quickly and you want to make him feel like he's choosing his own clothes but you don't want to take that long, and you say "do you want to wear the red shirt or the blue shirt", then yes that is a false choice.

But if there are truly two choices you find acceptable and you tell her what they are, that is not a false choice. You as the parent get to decide what is acceptable, simply because you are the adult and in the position of authority. If you're making up something to try to distract her, sure it's a false choice, but if there are only two options you're willing to accept and you tell her what they are, then it isn't a false choice, it's you laying your cards on the table. Unless you're making up reasons that don't really matter. But I'm thinking of circumstances where there simply are limited options available.

If the only options to move into at that moment were the one-bedroom apartment or the two-bedroom apartment, and there truly weren't any bungalos available, it wouldn't be a false choice. Or even if there were a bungalo but you didn't meet some requirement for getting it, like if it were military housing and a bungalo was there but the military had requirements for who can get a bungalo and you didn't meet those requirements. In that case, you would truly get a one-bedroom apt or a two-bedroom apt, no matter how you felt about it, and no matter what you wanted. You could fuss and have a tantrum, but it wouldn't do any good. I think that's what your dd needs to learn. If the options are the only options available to her, and she doesn't like them, that's on her. She will get angry and have tantrums, but that's OK. The fact that we don't always get what we want is a very difficult lesson, but all children have to face that reality at some point, and no it isn't easy to be the parent as they learn that.


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## Quaniliaz (Oct 11, 2002)

Here is how we "move on" after the validating:

"You are really angry about this."
<scream, cry stomp>
"I'd be really angry, too..."
<scream, cry, stomp>
"validate, validate, validate..."
<scream, cry, stomp>
"It seems like you still want to be mad about this. That's ok. When you are ready to move on, I'll be in the living room, and we can <read a book, do a puzzle, play a game, sing a song, whatever>"

OP - I hear that you don't want to ignore, and I (personally) think there is a difference between ignoring (pretending they are not there) and not engaging in their drama/emotion. It is really upsetting to me when DD is super super freaking out. I can handle it for about 3.5 minutes. And then I start to take on those emotions. If I were to continue to validate, she'd just get more and more angry. (She also gets more upset if she see's her own upset face in a mirror...weird.) So, I disengage - move to a different space - if she follows me, I tell her - I'm starting to feel really upset about this too, and I don't want to be. When you are ready to move on, let me know and we'll do something fun." Perhaps she doesn't listen - maybe turn on the tunes really loud and dance with the baby. Sometimes I give dd a list of things that might help: run around the house, sing really loud, do a hook-up.

I think some kids need more tools for moving on than others - they get stuck, and no amount of validating makes them feel better. They just think - yeah! I *am* really really mad!!! <period - no moving on> This has worked for my dd - not magic bullet work, but it does help her move on without me going crazy dealiing with screaming for an hour or two.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Yes, mamazee, but the original discussion of false choices was about giving the child a choice that was manufactured out of something, in order to gain compliance, vs. the reality of the situation. I believe it was something like you can do x or y (implicit: but not argue with me).

And I think that the choice there is being used as a distraction, and it would be more honest to just say, "I'm leaving because I don't want to argue with you."


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

When you are ready to move on, I'll be in the living room, and we can <read a book, do a puzzle, play a game, sing a song, whatever>"
Do you have to lock the door to keep her from coming in there and continuing her tantrum?

Or how do you keep her from following you / glomming on to your leg at that point?


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Hi,

Yes, I have been with the thread since the beginning of it, and read all of it.

I do think the "nicer" approaches work well with some kids, and there are many _situations_ when they work well for both of my kids, and those approaches are my choice in all but a few areas that to me are non-negotiable.

With the non-negotiable areas, I found the approach that works best for our sons is the most no-nonsense one, that uses the clearest type of communication and sets the clearest limits. Our sons need to know without a doubt what I am serious about, and this is what works for that. However I do reserve it for non-negotiable areas, and I do not have many of those. They have a very large degree of freedom in all other areas. But getting down to a very no-nonsense approach for the few truly non-negotiable areas ended up being the least toxic approach for all of us.

I do not think that disengaging from a pointless, game-playing, chain-yanking kind of argument is the same thing as ignoring a child's wants, needs, or thoughts. It's refusing to play a manipulative game. It's setting a healthy boundary.

Also they do not have locks on their doors. When they have a time out, it's extremely rare to be in their room in the first place. If they come out, I walk them back in. I would not lock them into a room.

Also I want to point out that in the approach I followed, there is no angry vent on the parent's part when using a time-out. The whole thing felt so much more positive to me than what I had been doing (blowing up) because I had to set my own negative emotions aside.


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## Quaniliaz (Oct 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Do you have to lock the door to keep her from coming in there and continuing her tantrum?

Or how do you keep her from following you / glomming on to your leg at that point?

At this point (she is 7, now) she doesn't follow me around and cry. When she was 4, she did - and I did my best to mentally disengage (which basically did look like ignoring, I suppose - but I was always willing to respond to new info, I just didn't keep having the same conversation over and over, if I was feeling especially patient, extra eye contact and kind looks, reminders about when she is ready to move on, we can do something fun). If I was getting really upset, and needed a break, I would give *myself* a break "I'm starting to feel really upset, and I need some space - I'll be back in two minutes"- lock myself in bedroom.

I haven't ever locked her in her room - but I have locked myself in my room.

Of course, I also did my fair share of responding tantrums - all of the above was in an effort to avoid that.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

First, that with two kids, I can't do that for much longer and second, that there are mamas who don't have to do that with their kids.

They don't have that because they know the words to use, the way to be, to avoid this conflict. But I don't because I never stayed around anyone like my DD long enough to hone those skills! I don't because somewhere along the line I messed up and now I have to get her back in line
Aw, mama. This is hard to read, you blaming yourself like this.

I don't think your DD is really very typical, from what you describe. Which is fine. My DD is not typical either. Some kids are much more challenging than others. I consider my DD extremely challenging (so do other adults I know) and yet what you are describing is even somewhat outside of my experience with her. She sounds extremely spirited and intense. Again, this is okay, this is not pathological. But I think you are doing yourself harm by thinking that she is totally typical and you are just "doing it wrong." I blamed myself and my DH for a lot of DD's behavior for a long time, but boy, it sure has been instructive to have child #2, who is completely different and who actually responds to the standard parenting tricks, just like the nice example children in all the books.

Some kids are just harder. If I had had my DS first, I probably would have thought parenting was easy and that I was like super-ace at it, yay me. You are getting yourself farther into this hole by thinking you somehow wrecked her and it's your fault.

Anyway. I think laundrycrisis is spot on. I started out as very empathy/logic-based, but this just isn't effective here. DD has necessitated a much firmer approach. We don't really punish, but we are big on very clear limits (because otherwise, she will push and push and push) and yes, we have put a locked door between her and us (sometimes I locked myself, sometimes I locked her) at times till she calmed down. This was never for more than 10 minutes, but we did do it. (Very rarely is this necessary anymore--but at 3.5, it was. She is not sensitive, also, and didn't seem freaked by it. Just mad.) And yes, we practice selective ignoring. And yes, she was sometimes physically removed from areas or physically put in her carseat or physically restrained for other reasons at 2 and 3 and 4 (again, now very rarely necessary). I am not beating myself up about this. Different kids call for different measures.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Sorry if the term "false choice" is offensive.

I think when a child wants one thing, and then is offered a choice between two or three different other things, when the reality is that aside from the needs of the parent and the necessity of narrowing things down, many more choices would be available to him, then he is being given a false choice.

I understand why this method is used with young toddlers asserting their independence. They want to feel in control; the choice gives the illusion of control while letting the parent maintain control. It's the illusory nature of the control that leads me to call it a "false" choice. "Blue or red otter pop?" is just easier to deal with than "Orange juice? Milk? Sliced apples? Carrot sticks? Otter pops? Butter and bread? Yoghurt?" And of course a small child would be overwhelmed by those choices anyway.

With older toddlers and pre-schoolers, however, the illusion of control is lost because they know what they want. You might as well just say "no" and give them whatever is easiest. Because you've already eliminated like, 90% of the choices, why not the last one as well? They're not getting what they really want, anyway.

You see what I'm saying? I'm not saying there's no choice. I'm saying, it's not the choice that is relevant to the child's desire to control the situation.

I mean, imagine if you put in for a three-bedroom bungalow and someone came up to you and asked whether you'd like to live on the third floor in a one-bedroom apartment, or on the tenth floor in a two-bedroom apartment (no elevators). You'd be like, WTH? And they said, "Look, it's a great choice, you can choose EITHER the one or two bedroom! Which do you prefer?"

You're going to say, "Well, you may have missed it, but I ordered a three-bedroom."

"One bedroom or two bedroom. Your choice."
"I don't know what's wrong with you, but I ordered--"
"I said one bedroom or two bedroom."
"Are you kidding me?"
"If you don't want an apartment, you don't have to have one. This is your last chance. If you don't choose, I'll choose for you."
"I choose the bungalow!!!"
"Okay, I'll choose for you. The one-bedroom."

Would you not be driven to distraction?

Now, suppose a kid asks for a sandwich but that's not an option. Offering an apple OR an orange, in my opinion, is going to fool a small child but not an older one because it's going to be that same ridiculous "false choice". Oh, sure, there's not a choice because you're in control.

But in that case just set out the apples and be done with it. None of this passive-aggressive apples-or-oranges-aren't-you-lucky-you-get-to-choose nonsense. That's not fooling anybody past the age of three.

Well, I guess you missed the part where I mentioned my DS often offers alternatives to the choice presented and that I work with them if possible. I don't consider the choices I present to him "false choices" and neither do I consider it passive-aggressive. My son is very intelligent and I don't set out to fool him. I provide him the choices that work for me and he can decide from that point; I tell him what *I* am willing to do and leave the actual choice up to him.

Of course, I am able to sit down with my son and explain to him that we don't eat popsicles for breakfast; we eat toast or fruit. I offer two healthy breakfasts and he chooses between those or suggests a third but an unhealthy breakfast is not an acceptable negotiation. He is capable of understanding my reasoning and I am willing to listen to his words, to a point.

There's nothing saying you have to give two choices; you can give as many as you are willing. When we discuss his breakfast, we often go through a number of choices before cycling back around to what he wants. However, he doesn't get ice cream for breakfast just because he wants it and/or is prepared to have a fit and I'm certainly not going to run out to the store to get his fav breakfast if we are out of it. There comes a point when you just have to say, "This is what we have; eat or don't."

Note: this is a CHOICE that the CHILD makes. You cannot force someone to eat; you can only offer food.

Why wouldn't a sandwich be an option? If you don't have one or aren't a place where you can make one, those are valid reasons, sure. In that case, you can explain that and offer a suitable alternative. If your child refuses the alternative, what are YOU going to do? Me, I would say something like, "The fruit will be here if you change your mind" and LET IT GO.

If a sandwich is an option, then why wouldn't it be part of the choices offered? Why would you offer choices that don't take into consideration your child's desires? My general philosophy is to fix what's wrong and work with my son's choices as much as possible, unless the choice is inappropriate or causing a problem.

For example, he had a hard time sleeping tonight because he didn't take a nap at school today. Instead of continually redirecting him to his room, which could easily have lasted two or more hours, I asked HIM what the problem was. He needed a bit of a snuggle and was out in ten minutes. Problem solved; everybody's happy and all it cost me was a bit of time to listen to my son.

I wish you and your child the best of luck, and hope that you find some way to resolve the issues you are facing.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Minxie, there were several people that suggested giving the child a "choice" between two when she had already expressed a preference for something else entirely.

I was replying to that PARTICULAR type of choice, not ANY choice given by a parent.

The sandwich thing was just a random example. I mean sometimes you don't have time. Whatever. The point is, offer real options or don't offer. Not don't offer options.

Quote:

Instead of continually redirecting him to his room, which could easily have lasted two or more hours, I asked HIM what the problem was. He needed a bit of a snuggle and was out in ten minutes. Problem solved; everybody's happy and all it cost me was a bit of time to listen to my son.
Can you tell me the words you used?

Because I've been asking before naptime and bedtime what we need to do to make it happy... why she's not sleeping... honestly, I swear to God, she just says nothing's wrong, she's not tired. Perhaps I was using the wrong words?

I tried to do the How to Talk thing... yeah.

Quote:

Me, I would say something like, "The fruit will be here if you change your mind" and LET IT GO.
Kick the child off your leg? Lock the door behind you?

It's so easy to just stop talking. It's another thing entirely to get the child off your body without force or ignoring or isolating yourself or the child in a locked room.

Perhaps I am only now seeing the difference between my child and children with whom GD works?

Mine is willing to use physical force to continue that argument, when she's in the mood. Now that is NOT all the time. I'd say that using games and challenges and physical force for basic hygiene we have really gotten it down to a couple of times a day max.

But "letting it go" is not just me walking away or stopping. She will get more and more aggressive until I respond, until it's something I cannot ignore (hit, kick hang on me refuse to get off).

I am totally capable of locking one of us in a room and ignoring her.

I just didn't think that was gentle.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about?

I mean if I could just stop talking and have that be the end don't you think I would have done that?


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

EdnaMarie, going back to your first post in starting the thread:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Just not bothering?

Like if she offers the least bit of resistance, I'm not going to fight. I just leave the entire project. At bedtime- one no means I don't put her to bed, period.

.......

Anyone try it? Like, no resistance whatsoever, no matter what, even in health issues? I am not sure what to do around cars, though. I'm ready to just let her learn the hard way. Like, "Okay, go ahead, we're leaving." "SUre, sit on my lap even though I can't eat." "Fine, don't brush your teeth."

I am not sure what sort of reply here would make you feel like anyone helped you. I've answered from my own experience - I took setting limits to a new level in a few non-negotiable areas, and pretty much went the way of freedom on everything else. At our house this has struck a balance that is overall much more positive and with less conflict and frustration for all. Others have answered from their own experiences.

It seems that for every reply that has been made here regarding setting limits, you have argued a reason why it either isn't gentle enough to meet your standards, or if it's gentle enough, that it won't have the desired effect on your child. You seem really stuck, and that you are having difficulty finding any help in all these pages of replies.

If what you want is to explore the completely consensual/non-coercive approach, there are folks around the GD forum who can share their experiences with that. You may need to start a thread with one of those terms in the subject line to get responses. There are books and websites people might recommend, and you may find some personal support for doing this.

If what you want is book recommendations for GD books with suggestions for ways to handle various situations, if you share what you have read already, perhaps people can recommend other titles that might be helpful for you.

If what you want are suggestions for ways to handle specific situations that are difficult, you might make a short list of what those specific trouble spots are, and let people suggest how they handle each specific thing, without getting into a broad discussion of overall discipline philosophy.

The people here can be very helpful if you are open to it. This thread has the feeling that you are saying "see how impossible my situation is ?", and then no matter what anyone offers you, you will reply "no, that won't work either, see, it really is impossible !!"

The only way I know to suggest for you to get out of this mentally stuck spot is to either get more specific about exactly what situation you want to solve (ie, bedtime, carseat, mealtime) and focus on each area one at a time, being open about the ideas that are offered for it, or perhaps choose one book or one philosophical approach and commit to sticking with it to the letter for at least a month, as an experiment, and see where it leads, until you find one or two that are the most helpful for you. It seems that you asking for help in a big-picture kind of way is a dead end that you can't see your way out of, and there aren't any suggestions that you are going to feel are worth trying. I really do wish you the best in finding some solutions to enjoying your time with your DD.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
EdnaMarie, going back to your first post in starting the thread:

I am not sure what sort of reply here would make you feel like anyone helped you. I've answered from my own experience - I took setting limits to a new level in a few non-negotiable areas, and pretty much went the way of freedom on everything else. At our house this has struck a balance that is overall much more positive and with less conflict and frustration for all. Others have answered from their own experiences.

It seems that for every reply that has been made here regarding setting limits, you have argued a reason why it either isn't gentle enough to meet your standards, or if it's gentle enough, that it won't have the desired effect on your child. You seem really stuck, and that you are having difficulty finding any help in all these pages of replies.

If what you want is to explore the completely consensual/non-coercive approach, there are folks around the GD forum who can share their experiences with that. You may need to start a thread with one of those terms in the subject line to get responses. There are books and websites people might recommend, and you may find some personal support for doing this.

If what you want is book recommendations for GD books with suggestions for ways to handle various situations, if you share what you have read already, perhaps people can recommend other titles that might be helpful for you.

If what you want are suggestions for ways to handle specific situations that are difficult, you might make a short list of what those specific trouble spots are, and let people suggest how they handle each specific thing, without getting into a broad discussion of overall discipline philosophy.

The people here can be very helpful if you are open to it. This thread has the feeling that you are saying "see how impossible my situation is ?", and then no matter what anyone offers you, you will reply "no, that won't work either, see, it really is impossible !!"

The only way I know to suggest for you to get out of this mentally stuck spot is to either get more specific about exactly what situation you want to solve (ie, bedtime, carseat, mealtime) and focus on each area one at a time, being open about the ideas that are offered for it, or perhaps choose one book or one philosophical approach and commit to sticking with it to the letter for at least a month, as an experiment, and see where it leads, until you find one or two that are the most helpful for you. It seems that you asking for help in a big-picture kind of way is a dead end that you can't see your way out of, and there aren't any suggestions that you are going to feel are worth trying. I really do wish you the best in finding some solutions to enjoying your time with your DD.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think it's entirely true. I have said that there are two things that were working (going back to do-it-or-I-do-it-in-3 and creating games for every situation), and that I'm using them, and it's great.

And I have several times said, Okay, I've got it down to these few things: bedtime (naptime is easier because we have a natural, non-negotiable park reward), hitting/kicking/spitting, and verbal abuse.

And I'm sorry if the other stuff doesn't work, but honestly, what am I supposed to do about that? I feel like banging my head against the wall. I do feel like I'm getting the same form of answer over and over, which is very, very vague: "I just don't engage."

Again, we have now gotten to the point where I see that some children do not glom onto their parents' legs to continue an argument. That is interesting. You can actually "just" walk away. That is cool. I hope someday we'll get to that point, though knowing her dad (he tends to follow me asking for a hug and to "forget about it" after having argued with me for a half an hour about something absolutely ridiculous EVEN IF I SAID YES) it will never happen.

My child DOES appear typical compared to other kids at pre-school, the park, supermarket, etc. At least, until we get to an impasse, but then it's impossible to compare because I have no way of knowing whether my child would suck it up if I threatened to whup her bottom with a wooden spoon, which I hear regularly. I know she is not responsive to things that are not violent, but I don't know how she'd respond if there were violent punishment.

So yes, I do feel like I'm missing something. How can someone who appears so normal in so many ways be so maladapted to gentle correction?

She is a very loving and gentle person most of the time and tells gentle, generous, happy stories. Since the beginning of this thread things have gotten a lot better, probably because she loves being challenged all day long, so she is happier.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

it sounds like she could do well being a lawyer or something when she grows up! LOL.
But seriously- hopefully all that creative energy she has, as difficult as it is right now, can eventually be tapped into in a good way when she is older.

Earlier you mentioned sending her to school for full days rather than half? I think I read that? Is that something you are still considering?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

My DD is a very loving and good-hearted child. She wept and wept when her preschool teachers read The Giving Tree. She literally will not hurt a fly ("Please take it out of the house and let it free"). She is never intentionally mean to anyone (like, she would never say anything nasty to another child). But she is very, very argumentative, intense and stubborn, too. They can coexist.


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## squimp (Nov 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
If the presumption is that children act out/badly/inappropriately b/c of unmet needs or underlying issues, and meeting those needs can do wonders to curb behavior, why wouldn't you just interact with the child?

Yes, it's exhausting. I'm an introvert and my oldest (and more spirited chid) is a HUGE extrovert. But he needs interaction. He needs the engagement. And it sounds like if the child is following you around the house doing everything possible to engage you, and using time-outs to play games, that she might just need more interaction. I don't understand the "just ignore" her advice. Until what? She just gives up?







That need isn't going anywhere until it's met.

As exhausting as it is for me (or you) to have an extrovert tugging at me all day, it's equally exhausting for him to NOT do it.

But the kid's supposed to have better coping skills than the adult? Or figure out another way to have his or her needs met? Or just suck it up?

Why not ask the kid what to do in the case of an impasse? "Hmm...you don't like x or y, and it seems like that's all we have, what do you think we should do?" "How can we handle this?" State the problem and seek out solutions....together.

Seriously, my kids would *flip out* if I did some of what's being talked about in this thread. It doesn't surprise me to hear the amount of anger and acting out. That's what strong-willed people do. They do. not. give. up. And the more you fight with them and model not giving up....they do. not. give. up. MORE.

I don't think GD is the problem, I think the adversarial/behaviorism slant is. Stopping the behavior isn't going to change the fact that your kid is angry enough to talk about putting you in the trash or following you around the house hitting you. Or not having her need for engagement met.

And it's probably going to take a good long time to turn things around. I think the grandmothers' advice resonated with me the most in this thread. Be kinder. Hug her more. Gain her trust back. MODEL flexibility, patience, and positive interactions.

Like I said, I've got an 8.5 yr. old and a 5 yr. old and most of the time they are delightful, considerate, and respectful. The nicer I am to them, the nicer they are to me. They are both strong-willed and I know for fact that if I was doing the amount of punishing and ignoring that it *sounds* like is being described here, I would be in complete and total hell. Shoot, I HAVE tried it. And it sucked. In the same kind of ways you are describing. I would stop. I DID stop. It worked out great. You could stop, too.

















Monkey's mama, I just wanted to say thank you for such a great post. This advice has helped so much in dealing with my adversarial 6-year-old.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Thanks, squimp! Glad it helped.

I was just reading another article with some ideas for dialogue tactics that really resonated with me: http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/inbal_kashtan2.html Maybe it'll be useful for someone else.


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Minxie, there were several people that suggested giving the child a "choice" between two when she had already expressed a preference for something else entirely.

I was replying to that PARTICULAR type of choice, not ANY choice given by a parent.

The sandwich thing was just a random example. I mean sometimes you don't have time. Whatever. The point is, offer real options or don't offer. Not don't offer options.

Can you tell me the words you used?

Because I've been asking before naptime and bedtime what we need to do to make it happy... why she's not sleeping... honestly, I swear to God, she just says nothing's wrong, she's not tired. Perhaps I was using the wrong words?

I tried to do the How to Talk thing... yeah.

Kick the child off your leg? Lock the door behind you?

It's so easy to just stop talking. It's another thing entirely to get the child off your body without force or ignoring or isolating yourself or the child in a locked room.

Perhaps I am only now seeing the difference between my child and children with whom GD works?

Mine is willing to use physical force to continue that argument, when she's in the mood. Now that is NOT all the time. I'd say that using games and challenges and physical force for basic hygiene we have really gotten it down to a couple of times a day max.

But "letting it go" is not just me walking away or stopping. She will get more and more aggressive until I respond, until it's something I cannot ignore (hit, kick hang on me refuse to get off).

I am totally capable of locking one of us in a room and ignoring her.

I just didn't think that was gentle.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about?

I mean if I could just stop talking and have that be the end don't you think I would have done that?

Sure. I said, "What's the problem, my son?"









He also has told me that he's not tired; when he does that, I tell him that "It's Mama Time now. You don't have to sleep but you do need to be in your bed. Would you like a book to read?" Saying it's Mama Time takes the focus off of his bedtime and puts it onto my time; there's nothing to argue at that point. Giving him a book respects his desire not to sleep right then while respecting my need for some space.

I also have wrapped him in a burrito wrap because sometimes, even at age four, he _needs_ that swaddling to calm himself enough to sleep. I know he does because _he_ asks for a burrito wrap. At the very least, it's a fun game because I roll him into the blanket (a bit larger than a child's blanket but not adult-sized) arms and all while he giggles (and it buys me a few minutes while he works himself out of it!)









We do that a lot; respect each other's space, I mean. Everyone has a need for personal space and time so we learned together to say, "Please respect my personal space" or "I'd like some privacy, please." This is especially helpful during THAT time when I need some privacy in the bathroom; as a single mom of a boy, it was necessary to establish boundaries early.







(TMI: tampons are called "privacies" in our house because that was the first interaction we had regarding such.)

Hitting...hmmm...when my son was two, he tentatively hit me. I gently but firmly held his hands so that he could NOT hit me. I then redirected him to a drum with the words, "We don't hit people; we hit drums." We each took a drum and banged on it until we dissolved into giggles.

This is probably not gentle enough for you







but...I don't have a problem snuggling my son when he is being contrary. I tell him something like, "It sounds like you need some love", wrap him in a blanket and pull him onto my lap. Very often, that is exactly what he needs and he snuggles down comfortably for five or ten minutes. When either of us is finished (sometimes me first; sometimes him first), I tip him off and he unravels himself.

I don't lock my son in his room; I don't find it gentle at all. I talk to him, play games with him, snuggle him and occasionally get stern or show impatience with him. I tell him if I am angry or frustrated with him; I tell him I need some space. I also respect his feelings when he is angry or frustrated with me, or when he needs some space. It is a two-way street but I am still the adult and still responsible for his welfare so sometimes I will make decisions with which he will not agree. That's just the way it goes and he has to accept it.

I also don't ignore him; I find that rude. I reiterate my position; he can accept it or not but that is what *I* am willing to do. "The fruit will be here if you change your mind" and I continue on with what I am doing.

I plan fun stuff for us to do and hope that we won't make it.







I know that sounds weird but I use it as a tool. "If we finish our errands quickly, we'll have enough time to stop at the playground. In order to finish quickly, what do we need to do?" We then list it together.

If we don't finish quickly or if dealing with him has made me too tired, I tell him that. "I was so looking forward to the playground today; unfortunately, I am too tired to go because I had to chase after you in the store. Maybe we can go tomorrow but right now, I need a nap!" This is all about MY needs and how tired I am, not about me controlling him. We discuss good choices and bad choices, and the consequences of each.

My son is very comfortable at our local grocery, so much so that he will run to the deli by himself while I am in another part of the store. I am not a fan of this so when it happens, I hold him by the hand (he's too big for a cart) and remind him that "I will control your body until you are ready to control it yourself."

To that end, were he to hit me now, I would probably do the same. I would wrap him in a burrito wrap, remind him that we don't hit and let him know that I will be glad to control his body for him until he is ready to control it himself. THIS WOULD WORK FOR MY CHILD. You know YOUR child best so have to determine what idea might work best for her.

ETA: I asked my son and he offers the following:

"Well, you could give me a hug to help me calm down, and a snack. You could tell me a story. A lullaby would be helpful and lots of kisses!"


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I am totally capable of locking one of us in a room and ignoring her.

I just didn't think that was gentle.

Does anyone get what I'm talking about?
We had an issue when ds was almost three, that had gone on for over a year, where he hit and hurt me frequently. The only thing that worked was enforced separation. To say that it upset him would be an understatement. The force of his emotional hysteria was 100% what he was capable of expressing.

Because I had dh at home, I was able to separate from ds while another adult sat with him. That did not mitigate ds' hysteria over realizing I had left him and there was no way to get me back for a few minutes. However if I had been alone, I would have locked *myself* in room for a few minutes instead.

The one thing I get about your thread is the issue of intensity. Sometimes a child can become so relentless they are hard to like anymore.

Part of getting us out of that rut was that I had to re-evaluate what was going on with ds developmentally, and what was acceptable contact with me as he changed and grew.

At 18 months, I could handle getting hit and remaining in the space of my toddler, redirecting. At 24 months I could do that. But by 34 months it stopped feeling right. Children change. They evolve. They grow. Perhaps at 18 months his hitting was just impulsiveness. At 3 it was a habit within his control.

I separated from him exactly once and the hitting stopped by 90%. One more enforced separation and he stopped it completely.

I think it worked so well because we had come to a point where his behavior was within his control. Further, I shifted to really focusing on meeting my needs rather than focusing on his behavior. Some people may not believe a 3 year old knows the difference but I think my ds really did.

I did not say "The punishment for hitting me is a time out". It was more like, if he hit me, I left to take care of myself for a few minutes. That is a good way to explain the energy, the way it went down. That was how I thought about it mentally. Thinking about it that way seemed to deflate the potential power struggle dynamic. I wasn't trying to actually make him stop hitting. I was just going to meet me needs if I got hit, and my need if you hit me is to be away from you for a few minutes. Yes, he was infuriated over it, but, well, that is what happens if he kick me in the face. I go to my room and take care of me. I could do that without any guilt.

For us separation, even enforced separation, was very much the gentlest solution on balance. I think it could have been done in a mean way, or in a way that escalated a power struggle--but there was a way to separate and actually diffuse the situation despite ds' resistance in the moment. He did not agree, but I think he did understand, and this new response from me elicited a new response from him--one that made life 100% better for both of us.


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

why do you think she clings to you so? Why she is so relentless sometimes with her energy and body? What do you think she is saying? What does she want out of the turmoil?


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
We do that. My issue is that some things cannot be "disengaged". As in:

"You don't like being relatively quiet while your sister is napping? Um... um... okay. Uh..."

"You don't want to put on your harness while we drive to pick up your dad from a month at training at a minute's notice? Uh. You can stay, well, no you can't, uh, you can, uh..."

"You don't want to brush your teeth even though your dad's family has bad teeth and that lady gave you a lollypop at the park? Um. Okay. Your teeth will rot in your head, but whatever."

"You don't want to put the glass jar that you swiped from the shelf that we passed too close to down? Fine, you can pay for... er, I guess that would be me."

Y.

I have to say this. First of all, that's way too many words no matter how articulate your 3 yo is.

Second, her teeth are not going to rot from ONE lollipop and why bring her dad's family's teeth into it. Teeth need to be brushed so you don't get cavities. End of story

That needs to go back on the shelf.

And what 3 yo wants to be quiet when the baby naps?

Also what's so bad about "wasting time" watching a video if it gets you some peace?


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Have you asked her why she behaves the way she does? In all your posts, I only see you express yourself from your own perspective. You evidently don't quite understand where your DD "comes from", but I don't really get the impression you're actively trying to find out?
My DD and I also have little 'natural understanding' because we're so very differently tempered, and I remember the point where I suddenly realized that I was just always telling her what I thought, without really listening to her -- which seems to be what your DD says, too. It seems like you're talking to a wall, but so is she - plus she's likely listening to a never-ending buzz that's not quite reaching her.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

why do you think she clings to you so? Why she is so relentless sometimes with her energy and body? What do you think she is saying? What does she want out of the turmoil?
I do think it's worth thinking about this.

Also, I know that when I get into a bad stretch with my DD, I tend to start holding her at arm's length, emotionally and physically. Sometimes I have to "fake it till I make it," offering lots more affection, especially physical, than I might feel like offering. I do feel this helps. At the very least, I am ensuring positive interaction along with the negative interactions.


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## wallabi (Oct 9, 2007)

hi there -
(let me preface this by saying I feel kind of shy offering any sort of suggestion - things around here would not suggest me as qualified to give advice, but anyway)

first off - some kids are just more difficult than others on certain issues, and it doesn`t mean you screwed up somewhere. I read things like "I send her to time-out" and "I just walk away" and (my favorite last year when we were having big bedtime troubles) "I don`t allow her to get out of her bed" (what do you do, tie her down? that s what it would take to keep my girl there if she didn`t want to be) and it makes me wonder, are they really telling the truth? children stay where you put them? `cause mine doesn`t, and with a house made mostly of sliding paper doors, there`s no locking her or myself in anywhere, and telling her to stay somewhere, and repeatedly putting here there leads to more refusal until, eventually, she melts entirely and looses control, and then not only do we have no successful time out, but we have hittting, kicking and screaming child who clings to parent. sooooo...

the solution (or, rather, only option I see) for us when dd just won`t stop doing something unacceptable (so after a few reminders and attempts to redirect/distract) is a time-IN, sit quietly with mama (or, rather, often mama sits quietly and tries to breathe deeeply while restraining any hitting/kicking limbs) or we go for a walk with me holding her and her thrashing about until she can calm down.

anyway, there is no little baby aroud here, so I don`t know if this is a practical response when your dd is spitting/hitting/kicking, but I don`t remember seeing it mentioned, so I thought I would put it out there. at any rate, I like this method for sending both the "this is not okay behavior" signal and the "I love you and am not leaving even when you are trying your hardest to give me a stroke" messages (which is necessary for us - time out is not an option on emotional grounds as well as physical-impossibility grounds in dd`s particular case).


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamille* 
why do you think she clings to you so? Why she is so relentless sometimes with her energy and body? What do you think she is saying? What does she want out of the turmoil?


Quote:

Have you asked her why she behaves the way she does? In all your posts, I only see you express yourself from your own perspective. You evidently don't quite understand where your DD "comes from", but I don't really get the impression you're actively trying to find out?
These are good questions and in fact I have asked her and I do care where she's coming from, but it's very hard to find out mainly because I cannot ask her when she's in a state, it's only when she's calm, and her sense of time is very vague, so her answers about the past are really unreliable. (I mean like at times she uses the wrong details, etc. leading me to believe she's talking about another time entirely.)

And then she very often says, "I don't know."

Sample questions: "You really were having a hard time calming down. Do you know what made you feel so excited?" "I know you don't want to hit. You know it's wrong. How did you feel when you hit? / What did you feel like when you were hitting?"

I do go further, but I always fear my probing questions are too leading in that respect, because open-ended questions get too little response. "I don't remember," for example. I might ask, "Did you feel angry or sad or something else?" But then she'll say, "something else." LOL! I really think she doesn't remember. Blind, momentary rage, so to speak.

There is certainly a physical aspect to it- overtired (as strict as I try to be with naptime and bedtime, it's the army, and we live in an apartment, and there's the baby, so...), hungry (if she chooses not to eat much), or if there are other people coming, going, or are here.

She gets REALLY wound up with other people. Despite five to seven hours a day in a social setting (she begs to go and never ONCE has she asked to leave excepting times I forgot the water bottle and she got super thirsty), she just begs to go out and get out and about. With new people, she literally goes nuts. It is just hard to watch, honestly--it looks like when they show bipolar kids on TV, only it's just while she gets used to the person. It is truly, truly manic.

True, I haven't asked how she feels at those times but she expresses her love for those people, "So-and-so is so fun! I love such-and-such! Can we see my auntie so I can talk to her? I want to go outside where people are!"

As for the arguing, sometimes I do ask her, "Honey, I'm tired. I told you why and it's very important. Can I ask WHY you are arguing?"

She says, "Because I love to argue! Arguing is fun! Don't you like it? I love it! NO! See?" Giggles. In fact I promise that is a verbatim answer from her today.

And I know she likes it. It's her raison d'etre. Which is fine, because now I do have a way to deal with that.

(Did I mention her favorite game is "no no it's mine!" in which two people pretend to fight over a favored object or piece of food? I'm not kidding. I asked what game she wanted to play and she said that was her favorite. WTF







but yes, I did play it...)

Quote:

That needs to go back on the shelf.
Marybethorama, first, those are kind of hypothetical imaginary statements I would have in my head when trying to think of something convincing.

I was addressing the point that I couldn't DISENGAGE from these points. I'm not sure what the last words before disengaging would be, but assuming I explained to her why I was giving up... that's what I was saying. They were used to kind of demonstrate how unrealistic and ridiculous it is to disengage from some things (argumentum ad absurdum). Not to explain how I speak to her.

Quote:

Sure. I said, "What's the problem, my son?"

"Well, you could give me a hug to help me calm down, and a snack. You could tell me a story. A lullaby would be helpful and lots of kisses!"
And what if you were to tell him, "Sweetie, there's nothing I'd love more. But daddy needs us now... and we have to go..."










So I will try to meet more of her needs... but honestly, it's not like my kitchen is clean (I mean, there is actually food on the floor and counters, and we do not have spoons right now, even though I washed and mopped yesterday), or my husband is happy with me, or my baby has shoes that fit.

I guess that is just one of those times that gentle has to go out the window.

Quote:

If the presumption is that children act out/badly/inappropriately b/c of unmet needs or underlying issues, and meeting those needs can do wonders to curb behavior, why wouldn't you just interact with the child?
Well I think I mentioned that my child is perfectly happy when her life is perfectly routine and I spend 100% of my attention on her 100% of the time. She has far fewer tantrums. I have time to soak grains that she likes, I can make three batches of bread so she can ruin them because what's two or five or ten hours in the greater scheme of things? We would wake in the morning and snuggle and then loll about while the eggs fried, daddy would not call (nobody would call, ever, if it were up to my kids, and yours, too, I imagine) except to speak to all of us without giving us stuff to do, the baby would sleep 24/7 and through anything even though she's already 15 months, and so on.

Sadly, that is not our life and THAT is why I wouldn't just interact with the child.

If it were just for five minutes, fine. But I assure you that we don't get to arguments right away. Ooooohhhhhh nooooooo. We try the challenge, then I try a little bit of reason and love and empathy in my last-ditch desperate attempt to be the Good Mom (admittedly my attempts are pathetic nowadays as I have more or less given up hope of her accepting empathy at that point), but that results in a two-minute discussion from which I cannot extract myself without being exceedingly rude, and then I am forced to put it out on the table: "This needs to be done in three or I'll do it for you..."

Blah.

I'm not a total introvert, I guess I'm just really easily bored. I mean I love explaining physics and other interesting questions. Explaining why we have to go shopping for the six billionth time? Not so much! And again, I need some of my energy for my other child, and my husband.

Today I had zero energy left at the end of the day and I sat on the couch and just let them stay up. Frankly, I'm ready to give up on routine in the military life. I bust my butt to have this routine stable for them and it gets screwed up at least once a week, and then I cannot DEAL with another tantrum that is coming on, I just can. not. deal.

Quote:

I plan fun stuff for us to do and hope that we won't make it. I know that sounds weird but I use it as a tool. "If we finish our errands quickly, we'll have enough time to stop at the playground. In order to finish quickly, what do we need to do?" We then list it together.
I should mention that I tried this with my child and that it sort of works. If it's a simple thing, she can keep it in mind. However, there are two drawbacks that are mentioned in this thread.

(1) Most of what we do are really necessary things, things I can't give up. Like park time. Okay, she can't go to the park. But her sister and I need vitamin D as well. Her sister loves to play as well. I need to talk with other adults. So what then? And also...
(2) Diminishing returns.

But yes, we do use that when there is a genuine chance we might miss the fun thing. I don't like to contrive it.

Quote:

You know YOUR child best so have to determine what idea might work best for her.
I feel this whole thread highlights the fact that I do NOT know what might work best for her, beyond time-outs or me in a time-out. I have such a hard time connecting with her when she's either hysterically (but happily) defiant, or angry to the point of hitting.

I do not think a hug would help her in the long run. I tried that when she was younger and it temporarily increased hitting, not that she was much of a hitter as a toddler. I think she's experimenting with what she saw other kids do at the playground.

I do appreciate it and there have been so many creative ideas here... my hormones are finally into whack so I do have more perspective. I know she is going to be stubborn but the whole needing to argue thing is just wearing me ragged, LOL!

And I also do appreciate the whole, "You are the parent!" However I feel that this often is misused to say, "You don't have to listen to the child!"

And while there are times when I simply CAN'T listen to her because we have to take the long-term, inconvenient view, there are other times when I feel like I need to hear what she's saying, and yet, "You're a blubba butt" (don't ask, I have no idea, and it's not about fat, it's about heaven knows what) is not fully communicating what she is feeling.

And yet, asking her in English isn't working either.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

From reading your posts, several things are very clear to me:

1. You are worn out, momma. It's time for you to move heaven and earth to get some time for _you_ to recover. You sound as if you're about to asphyxiate while you try to put on your daughter's air mask. It's time to put on your own and then you'll be able to deal with her.

2. Your daughter is more challenging than your average child. I can't tell over the internet if she's just really spirited or if there are other things going on that mean her development is not typical (sensory? any history of ADHD? any history of ODD?). She clearly has issues with self-regulation (many 3 year olds do), and I think that she might benefit from ideas that work with kids with sensory processing issues. Actually, I think that ALL kids would do well with a really good sensory diet, but some kids can get by without it. My favorite book is: Sensational Kids.

I've got one atypical child and one strong willed, but mostly typical kid. Our atypical kid needed to be parented very differently at times. He needed reward charts to learn to go potty. I had to specifically teach him social skills (hi, bye, please, thank you) because no amount of modeling did it. I was amazed when our daughter did learn these things on her own!

What that may mean for you is that some of these typical things don't work for your dd. It's OK. Meeting your child's needs may not be the same as meeting your parenting ideals. I'd love to have a non-coercive, consentual living house. It ain't happening with my personality or my kids' personalities. (Or my dh's for that matter.) The effort-reward ratio is too high.

3. I have, at times, put our kids in timeout and shut the door. Is it gentle? Nope. Is it better than the alternative? Yep. All of that happened when they were 3-4. Those are hard ages.

4. She's THREE. She's not a fully rational human being yet. No 3 year old is. They cannot see another person's point of view. It is just not there developmentally. I find that it helps me to remember that.

5. Have you been screened for PPD? Really, it sounds like there's more going on with you than just your dd. You are overwhelmed and frustrated. That's hard.

I would focus on getting some of your needs met. Psychological, physical, whatever.

5. You need to figure out a way to 'wait for the bus' when she tries to engage over and over again. My kids have done this, and eventually, if I'm able not to engage, it dies. The worst thing you can do is give in occasionally. That's like feeding an addiction. (Intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement there is. That's why gambling is so addictive!)

I don't know how you can figure out how not to engage. Yes she will follow you around. Yes she will scream and stomp and maybe even hit. It will get worse before it gets better (also known as the extinction burst - one last set of tries before it goes away). But if you can do that, it will get better.

But you have to work on yourself first. What can you do to take care of yourself?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Well I think I mentioned that my child is perfectly happy when her life is perfectly routine and I spend 100% of my attention on her 100% of the time. She has far fewer tantrums.

Sounds like you have your answer here.







Obviously, this is not be do-able all the time, but it sounds like a goal to work toward: more routine and more attention. And when the times naturally arise where it can't happen, perhaps she will be more flexible and less reactionary.

I might also consider your tone, expressions, feelings, etc. toward her for the rest of the time. I know when I'm grouchy about my kids my responses can be abrupt and my smile can be less than forthcoming. That always makes things harder. As others have said, it sounds like you are extremely frustrated with her.....and she may be picking up on that and reacting to it.


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
These are good questions and in fact I have asked her and I do care where she's coming from, but it's very hard to find out mainly because I cannot ask her when she's in a state, it's only when she's calm, and her sense of time is very vague, so her answers about the past are really unreliable. (I mean like at times she uses the wrong details, etc. leading me to believe she's talking about another time entirely.)

And then she very often says, "I don't know."

But I want to know what YOU think. She will have no idea- her brain is not developed enough... my dd is not a supergenius, I would never expect her to see herself objectively, analyze herself and be able to verbalize it. Never, no how... But as her mother, I can, and I do, and I try things accordingly. What are your impressions, intuitions, conclusions?


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Sounds like you have your answer here.







Obviously, this is not be do-able all the time, but it sounds like a goal to work toward: more routine and more attention. And when the times naturally arise where it can't happen, perhaps she will be more flexible and less reactionary.

There's two sides to it too. It's not all on mom to fulfill the child's need for attention, the child also has to learn that she is not entitled to attention 110% of the time. I have really had to correct my oldest's expectations in this regard. You could spend days trying to 'fill her up' with attention and all she would want is more. Some kids are like that. I had to really teach my DD to entertain herself. I was in a pattern of stopping whatever I was doing for her and it was not healthy at all. I now take interruptions a lot more selectively. We also started doing alone quiet time.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

LynnS is right on, as usual.









Quote:

We try the challenge, then I try a little bit of reason and love and empathy in my last-ditch desperate attempt to be the Good Mom (admittedly my attempts are pathetic nowadays as I have more or less given up hope of her accepting empathy at that point), but that results in a two-minute discussion from which I cannot extract myself without being exceedingly rude, and then I am forced to put it out on the table: "This needs to be done in three or I'll do it for you..."
This sounds very exciting and interesting, though, doesn't it, seen from one point of view? I understand your conflicting impulses and the "now I'm playful...now I'm empathizing...okay, now I'm stern....now I'm just pissed" cycle. I know it all too well. Only thing is, my DD seems to find this fun and to gain more energy and thrill from it. We get a lot less drama if we go instantly to stern. NOT pissed! Just matter-of-fact stern. I mean, let me ask, has empathizing ever seemed to work on her at all? I only do empathy-based discussion with my DD way after the fact now. There is just no stinking point to it in the moment.

Also, it's only since she's hit about 6 that my DD can sometimes say "I'm acting this way because I'm upset about X." It may be a long time coming. She is an amazingly verbal child, but when it comes to her own emotions, she is not good at explaining.

I did think of one book suggestion that you might like--The Explosive Child. It addresses the issue of strong will but is very gentle. I was not patient enough to implement it myself.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
There's two sides to it too. It's not all on mom to fulfill the child's need for attention, the child also has to learn that she is not entitled to attention 110% of the time.

Didn't the OP say the child is in school a good part of the day and at the park for another hour or two? I'm not recommending that she watch the child sleep or anything.







But if your kid is following you around the house engaging in negative behaviors to get your attention, and when you give the child positive attention things go smoothly? Doesn't that seem like a no-brainer?







And, really, at that young age I don't think the child "needs to learn" that it isn't all about her all the time. It seems that the demanding lifestyle this mom has detailed (new sibling, having to ferry the dad, etc.) already poses enough lessons for this child in that realm.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Didn't the OP say the child is in school a good part of the day and at the park for another hour or two? I'm not recommending that she watch the child sleep or anything.







But if your kid is following you around the house engaging in negative behaviors to get your attention, and when you give the child positive attention things go smoothly? Doesn't that seem like a no-brainer?







And, really, at that young age I don't think the child "needs to learn" that it isn't all about her all the time. It seems that the demanding lifestyle this mom has detailed (new sibling, having to ferry the dad, etc.) already poses enough lessons for this child in that realm.

I agree, positive attention is very helpful, but the way your post was worded it sounded like you thought the OP should aim to give the child 100% of her attention. All things in balance.

FWIW, I don't think three is too early to learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. I made that mistake with DD and hopefully DS never thinks that the world revolves around him! This time I plan to being teaching respect and working with the needs of the family from the very beginning. A lot of the AP moms I know IRL fell into the martyrdom trap, especially with oldest children, so I'm wary of this.


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## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

I am wondering how much time your DD is with you at home. She's at school full-time and then at the park for a lengthy time.

It seems there is a lot of issues happening for the 2 of you in a really short period of time.

Could it be that she needs more down time, despite her seeming to love being with people. Does she need more time at home to decompress so that things aren't rushed?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamille* 
But I want to know what YOU think. She will have no idea- her brain is not developed enough... my dd is not a supergenius, I would never expect her to see herself objectively, analyze herself and be able to verbalize it. Never, no how... But as her mother, I can, and I do, and I try things accordingly. What are your impressions, intuitions, conclusions?

I don't understand her motivations when she gets that way at all. I don't get it. I am a very logical person, I don't like playing games and especially not games with people. I normally avoid such people because I hate drama. I did not realize the extent to which my husband was like this until far too late.







I'm not expecting analysis from her, but "sad", "happy", "miss my grammy" or whatever would be helpful. Of course, that is not her responsibility, and I'm not expecting it. I'm just saying, I don't know and I don't feel I have a lot of clues.

Quote:

Didn't the OP say the child is in school a good part of the day and at the park for another hour or two? I'm not recommending that she watch the child sleep or anything.
No, she's in school for three hours, and at the park for 2 - 4 hrs a day (when I'm playing with her for about 10 - 100% of the time depending on who else is there).

Quote:

Does she need more time at home to decompress so that things aren't rushed?
Well... if so, she decompresses well standing by the door with shoes on asking if she can go out and play. 'Cause that's what she's doing now, on a weekend when we had a late, relaxed brunch and lots of playtime because, well, I'm depressed.

Quote:

1. You are worn out, momma. It's time for you to move heaven and earth to get some time for you to recover. You sound as if you're about to asphyxiate while you try to put on your daughter's air mask. It's time to put on your own and then you'll be able to deal with her.
Sigh. The worst comes out here. If I get a divorce, I will get a break for a short period of time until I have to really get my sh*t together.

Quote:

2. Your daughter is more challenging than your average child. I can't tell over the internet if she's just really spirited or if there are other things going on that mean her development is not typical (sensory? any history of ADHD? any history of ODD?). She clearly has issues with self-regulation (many 3 year olds do), and I think that she might benefit from ideas that work with kids with sensory processing issues. Actually, I think that ALL kids would do well with a really good sensory diet, but some kids can get by without it. My favorite book is: Sensational Kids.
Hm. She seems to adapt very well to lots of sensations. Does that book deal with children that feed of social sensations?

Quote:

What that may mean for you is that some of these typical things don't work for your dd. It's OK. Meeting your child's needs may not be the same as meeting your parenting ideals. I'd love to have a non-coercive, consentual living house. It ain't happening with my personality or my kids' personalities. (Or my dh's for that matter.) The effort-reward ratio is too high.
I guess I just wanted to try. I just wanted to try to make my home a more peaceful one.

Quote:

3. I have, at times, put our kids in timeout and shut the door. Is it gentle? Nope. Is it better than the alternative? Yep. All of that happened when they were 3-4. Those are hard ages.
Were they unable to open the door themselves, did you lock it, did you hold it shut? Because I'm not sure if I mentioned this but locking a child in the room is illegal here.

Quote:

4. She's THREE. She's not a fully rational human being yet. No 3 year old is. They cannot see another person's point of view. It is just not there developmentally. I find that it helps me to remember that.
Yes, and I do know this, all too well. Haha! But my physical violence / rudeness issues are just non-negotiable, yk?

Quote:

5. Have you been screened for PPD? Really, it sounds like there's more going on with you than just your dd. You are overwhelmed and frustrated. That's hard.
I don't have PPD, I am stuck at home with a 1 and 3 yo, my job is on hold, my husband joined the military and we get all the stuff that comes with that, he can be really mean at times, and I'm far from family. It's not hormonal, it's that our life is really hard right now, PERIOD.

And yes, I know that affects my child but I still can't let her hit or stay awake all night!

Quote:

I would focus on getting some of your needs met. Psychological, physical, whatever.
I bought a self-help book.

Quote:

I don't know how you can figure out how not to engage. Yes she will follow you around. Yes she will scream and stomp and maybe even hit. It will get worse before it gets better (also known as the extinction burst - one last set of tries before it goes away). But if you can do that, it will get better.
It is good to know there is someone else ignoring being hit, at least...

Quote:

But you have to work on yourself first. What can you do to take care of yourself?
Right now I'm here while my kids are doing God knows what in the living room. I think I just heard my rolling pin hit the tiles. Does that count?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Didn't the OP say the child is in school a good part of the day and at the park for another hour or two? I'm not recommending that she watch the child sleep or anything.







But if your kid is following you around the house engaging in negative behaviors to get your attention, and when you give the child positive attention things go smoothly? Doesn't that seem like a no-brainer?







And, really, at that young age I don't think the child "needs to learn" that it isn't all about her all the time. It seems that the demanding lifestyle this mom has detailed (new sibling, having to ferry the dad, etc.) already poses enough lessons for this child in that realm.

Brain hasn't got anything to do with it. I mean... can you tell me what to give up? Attention for the 15-month-old? Bathing myself? Eating? Sleeping?

I can appreciate that all children could use more attention, especially mine, but where do I fit that in? I clean when she's at preschool for three hours, and I'd need to do that cooking prep etc. anyway, here or not. The rest of the time I'm with her.

You mention the demanding lifestyle... really? What are YOU all doing all day?

I don't think the whole lifestyle touted in the mommy-craft blogs is realistic for most people. Most people work!

And at the same time, sometimes I'm hearing get more for myself, sometimes, get more for my kid. Turn on the TV, turn it off. Well, it's not on often...

I think I am going to just have to let it go. Whatever happens, happens. Obviously there is no right answer here and I can't find what "works" for us so oh, well.

Quote:

his sounds very exciting and interesting, though, doesn't it, seen from one point of view? I understand your conflicting impulses and the "now I'm playful...now I'm empathizing...okay, now I'm stern....now I'm just pissed" cycle. I know it all too well. Only thing is, my DD seems to find this fun and to gain more energy and thrill from it. We get a lot less drama if we go instantly to stern. NOT pissed! Just matter-of-fact stern. I mean, let me ask, has empathizing ever seemed to work on her at all? I only do empathy-based discussion with my DD way after the fact now. There is just no stinking point to it in the moment.
Yeah, but doesn't she have the right to hear someone be nice to her at first? I never know when she'll take me up on the offer.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Brain hasn't got anything to do with it. I mean... can you tell me what to give up? Attention for the 15-month-old? Bathing myself? Eating? Sleeping?

Seems pretty logical to me. If this is what works, when it can be done, I'd spend my time figuring out how to make it work more often.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
You mention the demanding lifestyle... really? What are YOU all doing all day?









Seriously? Wow.

I've heard you say over and over again in this thread that your lifestyle is very hard on your child and you. The frequent and sudden interruptions to go get your husband, having a baby, apt. living, etc. That does sound hard. Especially, as you are saying you're kid has a hard time with change.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Seems pretty logical to me. If this is what works, when it can be done, I'd spend my time figuring out how to make it work more often.
















Seriously? Wow.

I've heard you say over and over again in this thread that your lifestyle is very hard on your child and you. The frequent and sudden interruptions to go get your husband, having a baby, apt. living, etc. That does sound hard. Especially, as you are saying you're kid has a hard time with change.

The caps there was really unfortunate, ugh, I'm sorry. I just meant to highlight the fact that most people are doing stuff throughout the day, like cooking, cleaning, etc.

But EVERYONE is doing stuff all day, are they not? I mean, yes, the overall things can be difficult and sometimes irritating, but it's not... gosh, how do I explain. Yes, I can blame some of her behavior and my stress on the overall lifestyle, and no, I don't have help. But on the other hand, on a day-to-day basis, we take it one at a time and it's not as though we cannot manage.

I guess I just imagined that most mothers are spending their entire day cleaning, cooking, and working, and fitting in what they can here and there. I really, honestly do not know real-life moms that have a mother's helper so they can sit and do crafts while their baby I don't even know what the baby does, and then they get their break when DH comes home.

At most, they get a 45-minute break to (get ready) go shopping! Woohoo!

And I dunno... I mean, throughout the day, I never have all my stuff done, I miss several calls from DH per day, I haven't done the work I'm supposed to do, at least one room is a disaster, blah, blah, blah. It's easy to say, find a way. But I only shower two or three times a week as it is and I really like showering. I don't say that lightly--it's like, a real need for me to relax.

I also need to think of the baby. DD1 likes to craft and write and draw but the baby has to be taken away from that and they nap at the same time so guess what? We can't do much of it.







Plus, at 15 months, DD2 is ready for one-on-one interactive time as well. She loves to read and play find-the-thing games in books. I wish I could read to her more.

If I can't find more time for the kids, does that mean I have to use time-outs? Because I can't prevent it? Makes me feel like GD is really not for families like ours.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I don't understand her motivations when she gets that way at all. I don't get it. I am a very logical person, I don't like playing games and especially not games with people.

She's three. She's not a logical person. Period. You are expecting logic where none applies. Does it suck? yes. Does it get better with time? Yes. My 9 year old can be logical. Our 6 year old has streaks of logic. But our 9 year old still has a hard time identifying emotions. Our 6 year old can easily identify (and scream) her emotions, but she can't deal with them logically.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Hm. She seems to adapt very well to lots of sensations. Does that book deal with children that feed of social sensations?

Not, but the book talks about kids who need more sensations (of all kinds) than other kids do. (Some need less, like my kid, some need more.) If she's a sensory seeker and an extrovert, and you're not, life is going to be hard for a bit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Were they unable to open the door themselves, did you lock it, did you hold it shut? Because I'm not sure if I mentioned this but locking a child in the room is illegal here.

We sat by the door and marched them back into the room when they came out. It's not something I'd ordinarily recommend, but this was an "I'm at the end of my rope" kind of thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Yes, and I do know this, all too well. Haha! But my physical violence / rudeness issues are just non-negotiable, yk?

Physical violence is non-negotiable in our house. Rudeness is something different. She's THREE. She's not got the entire verbal repertoire that you'd expect out of a teen or even an older child. What if you just ignored tone and reacted only to physical issues? You can point out rudeness, even model (for us this was actually rephrasing what they'd said) what to say, but I would _not_ expect her to repeat it back. "That's rude. Did you mean to say "Can you get me a glass of water?""

It seems to be that you're reacting to tone as much as violence and that's why you're in conflict so much. Work on one thing at a time. I guarantee that if you're in conflict all the time, the rudeness will stay. If you're not, it has a chance of going away.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
because, well, I'm depressed.











I'm sorry you're depressed. It's pretty clear from your posts that you are really struggling and there's a lot of negative thinking going on. "Nothing I do will work" is classic depression. You've got a lot of stress and life circumstances that would contribute to that.

I'll repeat over and over again: You need to get help for yourself. I hope you can find a way to get that.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

And I dunno... I mean, throughout the day, I never have all my stuff done, I miss several calls from DH per day, I haven't done the work I'm supposed to do, at least one room is a disaster, blah, blah, blah. It's easy to say, find a way. But I only shower two or three times a week as it is and I really like showering. I don't say that lightly--it's like, a real need for me to relax.>>>>>>

This really is normal for this stage of parenting as much as it sucks. When my kids were little(thinking 5 and under) I did what I had to do to keep the house liveable-like I made sure we had clean clothes and dishes sometimes and that was it lol. Dh did more in the housekeeping dep't(but from what you've said about dh perhaps he's not helpful?) Although a few of us have said it now it really does get better. My kids are 6, almost 9 and 11. Not only can I get cleaning done but they do some of it as well







I had my 10 mth old nephew here for 2 days last week and wow did I forget how little you get done with a crawler underfoot, esp since he didn't nap or sleep well(which I expected). Thank goodness dh was home those 2 days and my older girls helped out with him. Sometimew if you think of this as a short term situation it can change your perspective.

I agree with Lynn56, sounds like you need some help. ((()))


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I'll repeat over and over again: You need to get help for yourself. I hope you can find a way to get that.

EdnaMarie i want to second, third, 4th this.

NOTHING will get 'easier' or make sense unless you get help for yourself. and yourself alone.

the worst part of depression is that all it does - imho is warp our perspective. and that ruins everything.

i know some of what you are talking about. mainly coz i have a dd like yours. and at her age i was recovering from a broken marriage. from 18 months to about 3 i was deeply depressed and in total panic mode. parenting at that time was not easy. thankfully i had lots of 'logical' help who were helping me see my dd as a child not as an adult i was expecting her to be.

perhaps you have PPD that was never taken care of. please do what it takes to be the parent you would like to be.

but it is going to be of no help expecting others to change. its you who has to do it.

please know i say this with support, not out to blame you or point fingers at you.

parenting is hard. it is much, much more harder with a spirited child. if you 'get' it it can be the easiest. but until then its a real struggle.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I didn't mean clinically depressed, I mean really sad right now! And not because of DD. Because DH is gone, he still calls just to ask me to do stuff, blah, blah, blah. Sorry, I am old and I still used "depressed" in the non-clinical term at times.

I also want to re-emphasize that my child seems very normal compared to other kids. What I think is not normal is her persistence with me, but that may be only partly inborn. We have these specific issues but they are not happening all day long.

I don't know how to explain... I really don't. It's not that I find the situation like, bad. Honestly, I'm living with about 10,000 other families that have a VERY similar situation.

It's that I do NOT see how to change the amount of time I spend with DD, or the routine we have, given the constraints we face, and therefore, I do not get how gentle solutions can be entered into every time if that is what is required.

I feel like it's unfair that in order to be a good parent I should have to have what I personally consider a luxurious lifestyle and only one child for the first five to ten years. That is just not the norm--my fertility came back when DD1 had only just taken on solids, so I know biologically I was ready by the time we TTC.

I want answers that say, "Yes, you may have a tight schedule, and yes, you may be spending 100% of the time you can with DD, but here's a trick or two that she might respond to when she responds to nothing else." And these tricks are not ignoring or time-outs or further stimulation (time-in, conversation, etc.).

Does that make sense? Am I asking for the impossible?

(PS the burrito one would wind my child up, though I might do it for fun sometime







).

Help, oh, help. It's not coming.







Sorry 'bout that, but I will have to deal with this on my own.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I feel like it's unfair that in order to be a good parent I should have to have what I personally consider a luxurious lifestyle and only one child for the first five to ten years.

Perspective truly is everything. This summer I had four days in a row where my kids where at camp for 3 hours. In over 8 yrs. I've never had that kind of a break. Obviously, that's my choice, but I will tell you what...it was a HUGE break for me. Having kids nap at the same time? Again, that would be a dream. I also cook 2 meals for most mealtimes for my severly food allergic kids. So, I hope you don't think that I'm making these suggestions while the live-in nanny takes care of the kids and the maid is mopping the floor.









It's really, really hard when children are little. And if you don't have a grandma living next door, or a husband who helps out tons, or a kid who isn't content just playing quietly by himself for hours on end, then yeah...it's super-duper hard. Been there, done that.

But in the long run, I will say that I'm glad I made more time for my kids when they were little and let some of the other stuff go, b/c it did pay off and it continues to pay off and it's lots easier now. And even my neighbor who has 14 yr. old twins reminds me when I covet her beautifully landscaped yard, that her kids are a lot older than mine and my time will come. She's right.







I have tons of free time compared to my life a few years ago. Even the other day I was marvelling at getting in the car and not having to open anyone's door, do anyone's buckles....I mean it was amazing!

I agree with a lot of what's been said these last few posts.


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie*
> ...


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I want answers that say, "Yes, you may have a tight schedule, and yes, you may be spending 100% of the time you can with DD, but here's a trick or two that she might respond to when she responds to nothing else." And these tricks are not ignoring or time-outs or further stimulation (time-in, conversation, etc.).

Does that make sense? Am I asking for the impossible?

If I had your magic bullet, I'd be out making my millions with it, rather than giving dubious advice on MDC!

Yes, I think that you are asking the impossible. Sometimes, especially in the hard stages, all you can do is muddle through the best you can. If you read this forum a lot, you'll see a ton of threads about 3 year olds. Three is hard. You've got a 3 year old and a baby and a husband who's not home much. You're thousands of miles from home. I think you need to cut yourself some slack. It's OK to just muddle through.

I know some people really like toddlers and babies. Me? I'm a much happier parent now that my kids are 6 and 9. They can entertain themselves. Right now they're off riding bikes with neighbors. They're just down the block, but I don't have to stand there every minute. They can have conversations that make sense. Ds and his friends were not being fair to dd today - yes the conflict was loud and annoying, but after the fact, we could discuss the issue with him and suggest a solution.


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:

I want answers that say, "Yes, you may have a tight schedule, and yes, you may be spending 100% of the time you can with DD, but here's a trick or two that she might respond to when she responds to nothing else." And these tricks are not ignoring or time-outs or further stimulation (time-in, conversation, etc.).

Does that make sense? Am I asking for the impossible?
Yes and no. I think there might be a "magic bullet", but it is different for each child / parent dyad, and is not as magic as one would hope









For us the "magic bullet" was the drastically increased positive attention after a "misbehavior". This follows something Gordon Neufeld in his book "Hold on to your Kids" calls "collect before you correct."

When DD was 3, and DS was a newborn, she started being rough with him. I was reading that book at that time. The next time she was rough, I immediately called her over to come and sit on my lap. We cuddled. I said nothing about the incident for several minutes. I picked up a book and read her a few pages. She visibly relaxed in my arms. At that moment I told her, gently, to be gentle with her brother. That was the last time she was rough with him in that particular way (pushing him hard in the swing) which was becoming a safety issue. That was an eye opening experience for me, and since then, whenever I'm able to "collect before I correct" the outcome is 100 times better than anything I could have done otherwise.

The bullet is not magic, because there are many times when I can't collect her. Either because I'm emotionally drained, or physically unavailable. The result might not be as immediate either. It was magic for me because my perception of parenting changed (and I was very GD before, and yet that was a really drastic change in my thinking).

A dramatic example comes to mind. The same ages. DS was sitting on a table next to me, and DD came over fast and pushed him down. He fell HARD. My first instinct was to scream bloody murder at DD. Instead I calmed down DS, he wasn't as hurt as I thought. Then I tried to collect DD. I sat on the sofa with her, didn't mention anything of the incident, but she had witnessed me consoling DS, of course. Again, we cuddled and I read to her. This time I didn't even have to say anything. She said, "I'm sorry, mama." Then she came over to DS and invited him to read with her--they both sat together and she read his book to him.

This was followed by me telling her later, that it IS okay to want to be close to mommy when DS is in the way, and IS okay to get angry want to push him away. It is NOT okay to push him. (this is from an excellent book called Easy to Love, difficult to Discipline, by Becky Bailey).

And she is 8 now, and is a very compassionate, considerate, sensitive human being, as whose temper is not a volatile anymore.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

here's the kicker.

there is a magic bullet.

but its not one.

its a million.

and it changes every time.

yesterday's magic bullet could be todays poison. btdt.

i am not sure why you feel parenting should be 'easy' or not as hard. you dont even have a dh to help.

all i knew at her age was the only way i could get breaks was be outdoors as much as possible. it helped dd and me.

_"Sorry 'bout that, but I will have to deal with this on my own."_

yup yup. byron katie said it best. hell is help is on its way. heaven is no one's coming.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

meemee: Who said it should be easy?

I'm just talking about possible!

The collect-before-you-can-correct is something we did when she was smaller, and it seemed to have a very negative effect. I'm not sure how she read into it, but basically, she seemed to think that literally to get a hug she should be rough with baby (in her case it was usually stealing a toy with more force than was necessary, though when DD2 was very small I was lucky as they were quite good together, still are all things considered!). (She was 2.5 and I really think she expressed in words, "If I take her toy again will I get another hug?" But this is a child that does not process other punishments or rewards well ahead of time... apparently it has to be some perverse incentive for her to embrace it. I am telling you, SPECIAL logic going on there, LOL!)

Today was a good day for most of the day because we went on a field trip to a nature museum. Then we came home, she had the choice of combing her hair or me doing it (it's very fine so it's comb daily or shave off, it's not like mine which could miss a comb) and she said, "Neither!" I explained again about the combing or cutting, and that's not a threat that's just a fact, and she started talking in the middle of it, so then I gave her the comb and said, "This is your choice: you comb it or I do." She ran the comb through it twice (or rather, over it, because it was so tangly despite being wet) and said she was done, threw the comb down.

So I said I'd do it. [tantrum duration:30 intensity:100 type:screeching,heaving]

Now, FTR she doesn't want her hair shaved off, and this is not a daily battle. But I was sorry that I'd either have to spend 30 more minutes begging her to comb her hair, or have the tantrum. I mean it's easy to say, "Maybe you could have tried another way..."

But I feel so irritated that I never know what's going to work until I try it, and then half the time it DOESN'T work, yk? Of course there are ten thousand ways I could have approached that, but they will all be more firm or more permissive and that means they all have their drawbacks.

Ugh.

Oh, and Lynn, there is no question that I prefer older kids. Once they pass nine or so I can start to deal with them. Until then I find them extremely irritating. Don't ask me why I thought it was a good idea to have my own. I think I thought that it would be different? I do find their cuteness cuter than the cuteness of strangers, but the irritating stuff is even more irritating!


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Today was a good day for most of the day because we went on a field trip to a nature museum. Then we came home, she had the choice of combing her hair or me doing it (it's very fine so it's comb daily or shave off, it's not like mine which could miss a comb) and she said, "Neither!" I explained again about the combing or cutting, and that's not a threat that's just a fact, and she started talking in the middle of it, so then I gave her the comb and said, "This is your choice: you comb it or I do." She ran the comb through it twice (or rather, over it, because it was so tangly despite being wet) and said she was done, threw the comb down.


See, I think this is a very good example of where things go wrong. I don't have a magic bullet, but I see a few things that could be tweaked very easily.

1. Comb or shave: that's a black and white preposition. My DD has very thick hair, which, believe me, gets tangled much worse than fine hair. It can be combed out very slowly and gently, using lots of conditioner, every few days. Sure, she'll be tangled sometimes, but is that worth your relationship?
The choice is also very black and white. Why not comb while she's sleeping? Or comb a bit every day and only comb well once or twice a week? Or discuss in a quiet moment how wonderful her hair could be in a shorter cut (pixies on fine-haired young girls are just beautiful!). Considering how argumentative she is, you might be able to give her her very own idea that short hair = pretty AND manageable!

2. Giving her a choice that's not a choice: when you say "you do it or I do it", you meant 'You do it my way or I do it my way". If you give her a choice, you have to accept the consequences. You could have known she would only brush it a few times (and if you didn't, you should consider rereading some of the parenting books). But if you want it combed all the way, this is not the type of choice that's going to work. How about "I comb it or brush it" or "I comb it now or at the TV or in the bath tub" or "I comb it fast&furious or slow&gentle with a sweet song". Or. let her argue while you comb it -- it might give both of you something that's important to you!

3. You ended a wonderful day by asserting your power. Could the hair really not have waited till the next day? From your posts, I really get the sense that being in power is very important to you. I can understand why, with your situation and all, but do you really think it's fair to establish it over your child's back? You seem to feel like your life is out of control, but you probably shouldn't use your child to regain a measure of control.

4. Not coming from this example, but a more generic thing I see in your posts: your priorities don't always match natural child development. Do you really need to clean several hours a day? Is preparing meals that important? And yes, if they are, is there no way your kids can help or 'help'? Is them watching TV sometimes really that much worse than you sliding off into depression and being less able to parent them adequately at other times?
And if you really need to clean several hours a day, why is that? Unless you live in a castle without help, decluttering and just swiping a few surfaces really doesn't take that long. Are the cleanliness norms really yours, or can you leave them behind for this difficult time being?


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## clickclackmoo (Mar 12, 2010)

I have been following this thread in an on-again-off-again sort of way, so forgive me if my comments are at all repetitive. A few things jump out at me, though, thinking back to my own experiences with the age of 3.

1. It did not matter what techniques I used, I was unable to change my DD's infuriating behaviors (in her case, screaming tantrums over every.little.thing.). It became clear over time that she was COMPELLED to do them by some mechanism in her brain that was learning to deal with her emotions. It seems to me that you may not be able to change your DD's behaviors either. She may need simply to get them out of her system. They may be part of her learning who she is and how to cope with the world. That's a big part of the age of 3.

2. I was afraid that I wouldn't like my own daughter. That she would be a spoiled diva horror for the rest of her life. Again, it turned out to be the age that I didn't like.

3. Both of these problems were principally mine. She was exhausted by the constant upset, but it was the only way she could cope. The only changes I was able to make that did significant good were to my own attitude.

4. The thing that worked best was to take lots of breaks in order to remind myself that I wasn't just a mommy and that she would someday be older and I wanted to have a good relationship with her then. Not significant breaks - but taking thirty seconds to think before responding, or going into mommy autopilot for a while after a tantrum.

5. Since then I try to pretend that the [insert infuriating behavior here] isn't happening. I still do the parenting I need to, but I find that my sanity depends on behaving as if my daughter is being relatively charming and rational, even when she isn't. It involves a bit of mental discipline. I know that's vague. Here are a couple of examples:

Hair brushing. Mom: DD, it's time to brush your hair. DD: Nooooooo! Mom: You don't want to. You hate hair brushing. Ok. Shall I do it for you or do want to do it yourself? DD: Nobody should do it! Mom: I think you're trying to tell me that you'd like me to do it. Fine. Here I stop discussing aside from mmmmhhmmm or mmmmnnnnn if she wants to argue and just get on with the brushing. But half the time DD runs off. That's annoying, and it happens a lot. I reckon I have a couple of choices consistent with the idea that it's not really happening (or at least not annoying) - I can try again with the brush next time the she comes into range, hoping she won't be as determined as I am. Or I can just forget about it and let her go out with messy hair. Just forget about it is the best for sanity.

Bedtime - not possible to forget about it. DD used to put up a terrific fuss, negotiating every step of the way, wailing, running out of the room, classic bedtime behaviors. In the end, we limited every step of the process, and then I just took a book with me. If she ran out of her room and buried herself in my bed, I'd take a few minutes to read while deciding whether to haul her out physically or bore her out with 'I'm waiting....' I don't think there was a single tactic that worked with this. It was a huge pain. She outgrew it. I distracted myself with a novel while I waited.

I think irritating behaviors sometimes serve a purpose to the child. They need room to exist sometimes. Parents need to guide the child to a better way of dealing with things. But the only way to do it occasionally is to turn one's parenting creativity on oneself: 'how can _I_ feel better in this situation?' as opposed to 'what can I do to change her?'

I found that once I decreased my own annoyance, I was much nicer to her, more patient, more affectionate, more clear-headed in my parenting goals and approaches. Less _bothered_ when she behaved like a 3 year old and not how it suited me. She responds well to this now that she's 4.









You could clearly use more of a break. Those are hard to get. Good luck, I hope you find your way!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Wow, thanks, clickclackmoo, that is actually massively encouraging in a way... or perhaps I just feel better because I finally managed to make that barley-chicken stew? LOL. Anyway. The hair thing... I used to comb the top as she went by, then hold the hair to comb the bottom and explain that it was going to hurt if she tried to get away.

Can you believe that today, she actually was pretty good most of the day?

I tried role-switching as well. She was the mom walking home, and for some other things. She liked that for awhile and interestingly was way more obedient when I got to be the mom again! I mean, not automaton-obedient, of course, but calm, at least. I might try it for bedtime, LOL!


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## mamamille (Nov 30, 2006)

I find that tantrums are when the child gets stuck between the fullness and extremeness of her emotions and what is socially acceptable way of expressing them. I would have had a massive tantrum if I was given the responsibility of combing my difficult hair at 3.5 or have it shaved! Yikes! She fails no matter what she does! In our house combing hair is very important as it has never been cut and so is pretty long. I do my best to put it into styles that keep it from being a rats nest, but we always comb it the same time everyday (routine). We do it at the table where she can occupy herself. I suggest that you get a sticker book/ coloring book that she can play with when you her do her hair (distraction). That way it takes the struggle out of it, and you can just incorporate it into your day instead of having it stick out like a sore thumb. And if you need to cut it to make it more manageable then try not to have it be "her" fault- that's just humiliating, and will cause more anger in the long run.


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

As to the hair brushing... my 3 YO DD has long hair and I've found that time of day makes all the difference in terms of her tolerance for hair brushing/getting tangles out.

These days, I only brush her hair in the morning right before I braid it. Then, at night I pull the braids out and give her a bath. Bath time also means she gets her hair washed and I make sure to add a dollop of conditioner to ease out any tangles. Then, I'll run a brush through it when it's wet if she seems amenable... otherwise I don't mind leaving it until morning. Generally, this seems to keep the tangles at bay.

And as PPs said, it's important to do it in a routine so she knows what to expect. We always do DD's hair right after she gets dressed. It's part of our morning routine.

HTH!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamille* 
I would have had a massive tantrum if I was given the responsibility of combing my difficult hair at 3.5 or have it shaved!

I'm not sure if you read the whole post.

Her choices were, I comb it, she combs it, or we have to cut it off. And I'm terribly sorry but that's the reality unless we want to get reported to child services.

Since she did not want me to comb it, that left two other choices.

And I should note she is capable of combing her own hair.

It is not my fault that her hair has to be combed. That is just LIFE. What else can I say to her? I mean really? I tried to make it fun, let's play princess, but she said she'd do it herself.

Quote:

I do my best to put it into styles that keep it from being a rats nest, but we always comb it the same time everyday (routine). We do it at the table where she can occupy herself. I suggest that you get a sticker book/ coloring book that she can play with when you her do her hair (distraction).
Did I mention she hates wearing it up? She likes it down. Of course. Because it couldn't be easy. Because that is my life. Even though I explained about the combing. And she does get distraction: she gets to comb her dolly's hair, or play with anything. She does not seem interested in playing, however, when she could be wiggling for me.

I do not know why.

And we do comb it at the same time every day: after the bath, before bedtime routine.

Some days are just bad days! I do not think routine is going to be one of those things to solve our problems.

The thing is, it's not about the hair. It's REALLY not about the hair, about one thing. It's about the fact that I cannot spend an hour with her on every single part of her life every time, even though we do them every day.

I am trying to improve the routine, however. I am putting baby to bed first so we can have an hour in the evening, even if that means less time for me to relax and sit and think about nothing at all except other people's problems on MDC or whatever. If she needs the sleep she will get it by falling asleep right away at her naptime. I think she likes it.

So we will see how that goes...


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

1. Comb or shave: that's a black and white preposition. My DD has very thick hair, which, believe me, gets tangled much worse than fine hair. It can be combed out very slowly and gently, using lots of conditioner, every few days. Sure, she'll be tangled sometimes, but is that worth your relationship?
The choice is also very black and white. Why not comb while she's sleeping? Or comb a bit every day and only comb well once or twice a week? Or discuss in a quiet moment how wonderful her hair could be in a shorter cut (pixies on fine-haired young girls are just beautiful!). Considering how argumentative she is, you might be able to give her her very own idea that short hair = pretty AND manageable!
First, the choice was you comb or I do, and the consequence of it not happening is shaving. Not "Comb your hair or I'll shave it!"

Of course you think thick hair gets tangled much worse than fine hair. Your child has thick hair--nobody could possibly have it worse. But fine hair gets in KNOTS and must be combed daily.

Comb while she's SLEEPING? How easy is it to comb your child's hair? Are you kidding? And I mean that honestly... is this one of those, cut your baby's fingernails while she's sleeping things? Because that made me laugh and laugh when I first read it (about the fingernails).

I guess some people have heavy sleepers!

Quote:

2. Giving her a choice that's not a choice: when you say "you do it or I do it", you meant 'You do it my way or I do it my way". If you give her a choice, you have to accept the consequences. You could have known she would only brush it a few times (and if you didn't, you should consider rereading some of the parenting books). But if you want it combed all the way, this is not the type of choice that's going to work. How about "I comb it or brush it" or "I comb it now or at the TV or in the bath tub" or "I comb it fast&furious or slow&gentle with a sweet song". Or. let her argue while you comb it -- it might give both of you something that's important to you!
Actually, she does comb it herself.

And who said I didn't sing and speak gently to her while combing her hair?

You are putting a lot of meanness into what I'm doing that's not there.









There was no shouting, there were distractions offered. Sigh.

Quote:

3. You ended a wonderful day by asserting your power. Could the hair really not have waited till the next day?
Sure, if she wanted it to really hurt and be in horrid tangles. It literally gets into knots, huge knots and I have had to cut them out after missing a day. Can you just trust me that the "comb or cut" is quite literal and actually true?

Quote:

From your posts, I really get the sense that being in power is very important to you. I can understand why, with your situation and all, but do you really think it's fair to establish it over your child's back? You seem to feel like your life is out of control, but you probably shouldn't use your child to regain a measure of control.








: You know what's important to me? A healthy, happy kid. One that is able to sleep, eat, and play and go outside. A happy baby that is not eating moldy food off the floor. We live in a SMALL house that must be mopped every other day or I literally find the baby eating bizarre stuff off the floor.

I do want some control over our lives, that's right. Because in order to establish routine, you need to control more or less what is happening when. Going with the flow does NOT work with my older daughter, and it does NOT work with me (different reasons, though).

How can I have a routine without making it happen? It's not as if we're going to spontaneously end up dressed and fed and at the park. That is something I struggle for every day, I struggle HARD to make it happen.

You would THINK I could just say, "Sweetie, I can't wait to get to the park! Let's have our rest so we can get out there!" and she'd be all, "Oh, yeah!"

But that's not what happens. In reality, we have two big events plus one chore per day, and it is like pulling teeth.

Could we stay in daily? Sure. I'd say a good half the parents here do. But to me, staying in and just lolling around in a dirty house for the sake of avoiding an argument seems a pretty weak parenting strategy, to be honest.

Quote:

4. Not coming from this example, but a more generic thing I see in your posts: your priorities don't always match natural child development. Do you really need to clean several hours a day? Is preparing meals that important?
Ever since the maid and cook left, it's true, I've felt very overwhelmed about having to keep the house safe and eat nutritious meals. My husband cut off my $1000 monthly food budget for eating hot meals out once or twice a day, and Taco Bell just doesn't hit the spot.

So YES, living in a reasonably clean house and cooking are THAT important to me.

I mean are you joking? Or perhaps you are into raw foods, in which case, I will just tell you... we aren't. LOL!

Quote:

And yes, if they are, is there no way your kids can help or 'help'?
Oh, they can "help" alright, as the do. I can't tell you how many times I've scraped "dough" off the floor, or lost half a loaf of bread to a pre-schooler that finds yeasty dough more appealing than, say, chocolate chips.

They help.

I'm not ignoring them when I'm doing stuff.

Quote:

And if you really need to clean several hours a day, why is that? Unless you live in a castle without help, decluttering and just swiping a few surfaces really doesn't take that long. Are the cleanliness norms really yours, or can you leave them behind for this difficult time being?
It's washing the dishes, sweeping the floors, mopping the floors (I'm not sure if you think it's acceptable to have your slippers stick to the kitchen floor... I'm not really keen on it-- did I mention I have a 15-month-old as well?), folding the laundry, doing the laundry, picking up chokeable non-toys from the playroom, and filing bills we have to pay, doing work-from-home (ebay) stuff, etc.

I don't do this perfect folding of laundry. I just kind of try to keep it from getting massively wrinkled in a huge ball.

And yes, housework takes me three hours, including dinner prep so we can eat.

So sue me.

I'm not going to eat at Taco Bell nightly and live in squalor in dirty clothes. When I see people who are doing that, they look massively unhappy and unhealthy. I am sure they think it's just too much trouble to try and get their kids in a row and their house reasonably clean so they feel they can leave and not come back and cry.

I can understand that. I could not personally face that life, however and I know for a fact (because we had to stay in our two months here) that my daughter couldn't, either.

We like to eat good meals, to live in a reasonably orderly home which does not present an immediate danger to our health and safety, wear clean clothes that don't itch, and play outside.

As it is, right now there is no toilet paper, I have two loads of laundry that need to be brought down three flights of stairs (and then dried... and then back up...), the playroom was destroyed by the baby, and the dishes are dirty.

And I got a LOT done today, and the kids were great.

No, slacking on the housework is not where we have any room, sorry!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Mine has that stringy fine hair, and yeah it does get into actual knots if I don't comb through it every morning. I've had to cut out a chunk a few times and it takes ages to grow out. When they're older you can reason with them, but really at 3.5 sometimes all you can do is empathize and muddle through it the best you can. Which it sounds like is what you're doing. It's exhausting but they do get older and more reasonable. Even the spirited ones. There are still challenges, but the hair isn't one anymore. She understands how awful it is to have chunks out of her hair.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Oh yeah and we also ended up cutting it into a short bob in the long run. I still had to comb it every day after that, but wow was it easier.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Do you have any parent child support programs near you? It sounds like you could use the support and maybe the perspectives of other parents with young children.

Not sure if you want practical advice or not based on your responses to this thread but I will give it a go. I had 4 kids in 5 years with twins in the middle and some of these things were lifesavers for me so that I could cut the day to day routine to a minimum and still have decent meals, and a reasonably clean home. We also live in a small house.

Kitchen: Use your crockpot - dinner prep can be 10 minutes or less. Make simple soups and stews that can be made over time. It takes the same time to make double and triple batches of most things. Cook double meals and freeze one or have it in the fridge for a later meal. Make large quanties of rice or potatoes and freeze it to have on hand. Use a bread machine, bake in large batches and freeze. Take an hour one evening after grocery day and prep everything - wash lettuce, chop veggies, chop and freeze onions, make marinades and marinate chicken and toss in freezer. Make a meatloaf or meatballs and freeze.
Get a dishwasher if you don't have one. Load it all day. Run after dinner and empty before bed.

Cleaning/household stuff - do a load of landry in the morning, hang dry wrinkly stuff - I put it straight on hangers as it comes out of the wash.
Do cleaning in 10 minute chunks. 10 minutes in the bathroom, 10 minutes for the kitchen floor, 10 minute tidy in the living area. Do what you can and let the rest go til next time.
Let her help - kid sized brooms, a towel to dry unbreakable dishes, a cloth and vinegar and water in a small spray bottle, a basket to collect toys.

Kid stuff
Limit clothes and toys. Rotate or donate it. Kids need less than we think.
Cut her hair to a bob or pixie cut. She's 3 - it shouldn't be this hard.
Make things as simple as possible to get out of the house - slip on shoes, mittens on a clip, kid height hooks for coats, diaper bag always packed in the car, a "going out" bag in the car (extras of stuff for the season - hat, sunscreen, sandtoys, book, juice boxes and granola bars, clean t-shirt etc)
Do as much as you can together - bath together, stories together, bed together.
I used a backpack rather than a sling for my youngest once she got to a certain age/size and would plop her in it after lunch so I could do 15 minutes of clean up and then we could go for a walk.

Another thing that helped me was to write down what I wanted our family life to look like and what *I* was going to do to make that happen. I posted a summary of it on my fridge to remind me that I was the one that sets the tone for the family. How our days went were a direct reflection of how positively I handled things. It's not up to my kids. I have to model for them what I want to see. If we were stuck in a rut or an unhealthy pattern I would need to find a way through that. Sometimes it meant trying things I wasn't sure would work on the advice of friends because I needed to shake things up.

I'm saying this gently but I think you may be setting up an unhealthy dynamic with your relationship with your daughter and that it might be beneficial to find some support around changing that if it concerns you.

Good luck
Karen


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Another thing that helped me was to write down what I wanted our family life to look like and what *I* was going to do to make that happen. I posted a summary of it on my fridge to remind me that I was the one that sets the tone for the family. How our days went were a direct reflection of how positively I handled things. It's not up to my kids. I have to model for them what I want to see.

Not the OP here, but just have to say that I love that and can use it today









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
If we were stuck in a rut or an unhealthy pattern I would need to find a way through that. Sometimes it meant trying things I wasn't sure would work on the advice of friends because I needed to shake things up.

Absolutely







I had to experiment at times. I still do. If I'm stuck, I need to get unstuck, which will mean trying something I'm not already doing.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Oh yeah and we also ended up cutting it into a short bob in the long run. I still had to comb it every day after that, but wow was it easier.

Yeah, the funny thing today (even though I love her curls) is she asked for a boy's haircut! Now, that's less to do with hair per se than with the fact that she has a lot of boys in her class and it's a time of gender exploration, but I was thinking maybe it IS time, though she hadn't wanted to in the past. Then she could really comb it herself. And she can really do a good job herself, she can, but she doesn't have the patience. Perhaps with a shorter cut she could.

Quote:

Do you have any parent child support programs near you? It sounds like you could use the support and maybe the perspectives of other parents with young children.
We have the official support network which suggests 1, 2, 3, Magic! For every child.

Which is why about 90% of parents here spank: they have no other recourse since 1, 2, 3, Magic! doesn't work with most kids. Not with this lifestyle.

I have lots of mommy friends and I am not sure how many times I've repeated this, but _*I am aware that her behavior is age-appropriate*_. That does not mean that I want to encourage it. I am looking for calm ways to express to her, in a way that she can understand, that it is unacceptable. Words don't work.

Now, there are people here saying, no, she sounds spirited. And that does get me down because spirited is often code for out-of-control, in my experience. (And I mean, out of self-control, and just out of control, period.) And also because she seems so normal!

Quote:

Not sure if you want practical advice or not based on your responses to this thread but I will give it a go. I had 4 kids in 5 years with twins in the middle and some of these things were lifesavers for me so that I could cut the day to day routine to a minimum and still have decent meals, and a reasonably clean home. We also live in a small house.

Kitchen: Use your crockpot - dinner prep can be 10 minutes or less. Make simple soups and stews that can be made over time. It takes the same time to make double and triple batches of most things. Cook double meals and freeze one or have it in the fridge for a later meal. Make large quanties of rice or potatoes and freeze it to have on hand. Use a bread machine, bake in large batches and freeze. Take an hour one evening after grocery day and prep everything - wash lettuce, chop veggies, chop and freeze onions, make marinades and marinate chicken and toss in freezer. Make a meatloaf or meatballs and freeze.
Get a dishwasher if you don't have one. Load it all day. Run after dinner and empty before bed.

Cleaning/household stuff - do a load of landry in the morning, hang dry wrinkly stuff - I put it straight on hangers as it comes out of the wash.
Do cleaning in 10 minute chunks. 10 minutes in the bathroom, 10 minutes for the kitchen floor, 10 minute tidy in the living area. Do what you can and let the rest go til next time.
Let her help - kid sized brooms, a towel to dry unbreakable dishes, a cloth and vinegar and water in a small spray bottle, a basket to collect toys.

Kid stuff
Limit clothes and toys. Rotate or donate it. Kids need less than we think.
Cut her hair to a bob or pixie cut. She's 3 - it shouldn't be this hard.
Make things as simple as possible to get out of the house - slip on shoes, mittens on a clip, kid height hooks for coats, diaper bag always packed in the car, a "going out" bag in the car (extras of stuff for the season - hat, sunscreen, sandtoys, book, juice boxes and granola bars, clean t-shirt etc)
Do as much as you can together - bath together, stories together, bed together.
I used a backpack rather than a sling for my youngest once she got to a certain age/size and would plop her in it after lunch so I could do 15 minutes of clean up and then we could go for a walk.
_*I do absolutely 100% of what you are suggesting.*_ Even bathing--I can't bathe with them every time (sometimes I'm using it as computer time as I sit in the bathroom with a laptop on my lap).

Frankly, I do not spend THAT much time on housework. I don't think 3 hrs a day is a lot, if you really think about it.

Quote:

Another thing that helped me was to write down what I wanted our family life to look like and what I was going to do to make that happen. I posted a summary of it on my fridge to remind me that I was the one that sets the tone for the family. How our days went were a direct reflection of how positively I handled things. It's not up to my kids. I have to model for them what I want to see. If we were stuck in a rut or an unhealthy pattern I would need to find a way through that. Sometimes it meant trying things I wasn't sure would work on the advice of friends because I needed to shake things up.
I got a book on cognitive behavior therapy to help me even out my moods and we'll see. When I'm PMS that will be the test, LOL!

Quote:

I'm saying this gently but I think you may be setting up an unhealthy dynamic with your relationship with your daughter and that it might be beneficial to find some support around changing that if it concerns you.










What is the unhealthy part?

Expressing that I don't like to be hit?

Asking her to go to bed at night?

I'm not the one arguing with everything she says. I'm not sure if this is coming across, but if I say "yes" all day (which I often do, for hours and hours), she will still persist and beg me to argue.

Is that me setting her up?

The extra time with her at night, by the way, has cut three hours out of her sleep. She just can't fall asleep like she used to. But now she really likes that time and I'm sure it would break her heart not to have it.

Ugh. Talk about setting up a negative relationship. Why did I think I could improve bedtime by spending more quiet time with her? Why, why, why? She's STILL awake! What am I going to do? I have to go to bed and I only got 45 minutes to myself, and no laundry or dishes done, either.

(Now, the maid, as I mentioned, doens't work here so not worrying about those is not really an option.)

I mean if I'm already using the crock pot, where can I go from there?!?!

I guess I will sleep even less than I do. Speaking of "taking care of myself"! This really sucks.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

*EdnaMarie*, you have so much weight on your shoulders. I don't know how to help you lift it, but I couldn't read and not respond with a hug.









ETA: Honestly, I would probably look at getting an OT evaluation ~re. sensory issues that LynnS6 mentioned. DD is a sensory seeker and while I'm not sure yet whether its helpful or not, she is getting OT now. OT is covered by Tricare. I haven't had a chance to read all of the pages (11!) but I really hope you don't mind me suggesting this. It can't hurt, you know?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
*EdnaMarie*, you have so much weight on your shoulders. I don't know how to help you lift it, but I couldn't read and not respond with a hug.









ETA: Honestly, I would probably look at getting an OT evaluation ~re. sensory issues that LynnS6 mentioned. DD is a sensory seeker and while I'm not sure yet whether its helpful or not, she is getting OT now. OT is covered by Tricare. I haven't had a chance to read all of the pages (11!) but I really hope you don't mind me suggesting this. It can't hurt, you know?

Thanks, Kate. Honestly, if she did not seem so normal compared to the other kids I know (even more normal, quite frankly) and if she were not so on-target with milestones, after this thread I would consider her for that. Her pre-school teacher said that she was "wonderful and tries really hard at whatever she does." Never a mention of any intensity and I see her at the park daily with her friends... now it might be that since I'm intense and stubborn, I tend to gravitate towards similar people and have similar people in my family so we are basically a really messed up group of people with messed up kids but just don't recognize it.







Feels like that sometimes!

But then I see OTHER people and THEIR kids and I think, "Wow, and I thought we were screwed up." Yk?

But she really does seem to be similar, even better behaved at the park than many other children.

It is really a few KEY issues that just come up again and again... sleeping, hitting (did I mention giving myself a time-out has drastically reduced that? I had to not let her in to see me for two minutes, which seems harsh but at least I had time to calm down), and verbal stuff.

In fact now we are really down to the sleep issue and verbal name-calling / raspberries. The raspberries are completely our fault, but are totally inappropriate in my husband's culture (basically, you might as well spit on someone directly) and must be stopped. I can't really say in detail how they started here but long story short, we got into a power struggle, disengaged, and are now stuck with low-level raspberry contests. Ugh!

I wish I could help her with sleep.

Honestly I will thank all those people who have similar kids. I need to re-read the earlier parts, but whoever suggested making everything everything everything a game or a challenge, thank you! Re-setting toddler-like limits (by which I mean, what we used when she was two to enforce health and safety limits) have also massively helped.

I realize it's my tolerance for this that makes me upset but I also think it's a genuine problem when a child is not sleeping or is hitting or calling names. it's not that it's not normal, but like so many other things (spitting, tantruming, whatever) that does not make it okay to do and it's not something you want to encourage.

My problem was that what I was doing was encouraging bad behavior and I know that.

Now... to sleep... nighttime parenting without going insane... sigh!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Two things:

1. I have hair like your daughter's. It. is. horrible. Gorgeous to look at, I'm told, but very painful to comb or brush if it ever gets a knot. So since having DS, and thus having less time to do my hair, I have had different forms of layered bobs. Layers are a godsend.

2. I read in the book _Your Three-Year-Old_ that three-year-olds tend to go through a 6-month stage where they hate leaving the house and you may as well not try if you can possibly avoid it, other than to go to preschool or whatever.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

OP, I've read nearly all of this thread and I'm so glad that you feel like some things are improving. I just wanted to mention one thing regarding sleep: it really sounds to me like she's ready to drop her nap. Both my kids were terrible sleepers and I would spend hours trying to get them to sleep at night, singing songs, rubbing backs, etc UNTIL they stopped napping. For both of them it was just before their 3rd birthday. After that, bedtime became so much easier! I know it might sound daunting to drop the nap and therefore have a potentially grumpy, over-tired kid in the afternoons, but for us it was so worthwhile to gain those hours of evening back. Now they're in pjs at around 7:15, done with books and songs by 7:45, and asleep (usually) by 8 (rather than 9 or 10 before). DS2, who just turned 3, still occasionally naps (once a week if I time the car ride home poorly) and those nights are always a struggle, whereas on a normal no-nap day, he might be grumpy or more out-of-control around bedtime but he then very quickly falls asleep so to me it is definitely worth it. Anyhow, perhaps you've already considered this idea and rejected it, but for us, there was nothing we could do to improve bedtime until we got rid of the nap. Good luck.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

I have lots of mommy friends and I am not sure how many times I've repeated this, but I am aware that her behavior is age-appropriate. That does not mean that I want to encourage it. I am looking for calm ways to express to her, in a way that she can understand, that it is unacceptable. Words don't work.>>>>

If you are aware that her behavior is age appropriate then how in the world do you think there is a way to convey to her that it's unacceptable? You can't squash their NORMAL behaviors, they're not going to magically go away with a certain trick no matter how much you want them to. You ride out the phase and do things to lessen the occurences, lots of advice has been given on this-yet you continue to argue about most things people are saying to you. Perhaps you are like that in real life with her and you don't even realize it? You said your dh is argumentative too IIRC? I hope you can find some relief from the stress you are feeling.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

Been following this thread with interest, and gotten many good ideas and a great deal of perspective for myself. I just wanted to add re: the raspberries and name calling- I've found that ANY attention paid to a behavior makes it last longer. Especially trying to correct/suppress it. If I completely ignore an unwanted behavior or word it goes away much sooner than if it had been reinforced, IME.


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## pupsnelda (May 23, 2005)

Quote: "We have the official support network which suggests 1, 2, 3, Magic! For every child.

Which is why about 90% of parents here spank: they have no other recourse since 1, 2, 3, Magic! doesn't work with most kids. Not with this lifestyle."

I have to ask, you said you are in Germany. When you say 90 % of parents spank, do you talk about Germans? Because this is definitely not true. I live in Germany and I have never ever seen anyone spank their children, and it is illegal anyway.

Quote: "Frankly, I do not spend THAT much time on housework. I don't think 3 hrs a day is a lot, if you really think about it."

I think it is a lot. I have a large appartment and two boys and work full time and never ever have I needed to spend three hours on housework. Maybe it is necessary in your case, but you have time to concentrate on housework, shopping and the baby while your daughter is in preschool. I can't see where the logistical struggle is. Maybe your daily structure is completely different to what I imagine?

Quote: "The extra time with her at night, by the way, has cut three hours out of her sleep. She just can't fall asleep like she used to. But now she really likes that time and I'm sure it would break her heart not to have it.

Ugh. Talk about setting up a negative relationship. Why did I think I could improve bedtime by spending more quiet time with her? Why, why, why? She's STILL awake! What am I going to do? I have to go to bed and I only got 45 minutes to myself, and no laundry or dishes done, either."

I don't get it, really I don't. You set a reasonable time for her bedtime, you do the routine, say goodnight and leave her room. What happens? Does she come out? Can't you just walk her back to her room and leave again and use all this time she comes out again and again doing a bit of laundry here, wash some dishes there, and be just completely bored with whatever she does. I think this is gentle. What I try to suggest is to use this time where she should go to sleep and fights it multitasking. Using the time for some things you have to do anyway.

For the bad words I would ignore them. Completely. You have told her that you do not like when she talks to you like this, so ignore her and I would also ignore any requests coming at the same time. I do not find it harsh. She is bright, she knows that this has you up the tree, your reaction is her incentive.

For the hitting, absolutely not acceptible. I would put her in time out. I see it like this: You have the absolute right to not "suffer pain" from being hit, so you have to defend yourself. And this happens by creating "security space" between the two of you. You can also lock yourself away with the baby. And I really do not think this is not gentle. It is not the first time she is doing this. It has happend quite often, right? It's not some big news to her that it is not acceptable. So, I would create this space by removing her or myself and doing it completely bored as if you were expressing "it gets old (name calling, hitting)".

What do you think?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2grrls* 
I have lots of mommy friends and I am not sure how many times I've repeated this, but I am aware that her behavior is age-appropriate. That does not mean that I want to encourage it. I am looking for calm ways to express to her, in a way that she can understand, that it is unacceptable. Words don't work.>>>>

If you are aware that her behavior is age appropriate then how in the world do you think there is a way to convey to her that it's unacceptable? You can't squash their NORMAL behaviors, they're not going to magically go away with a certain trick no matter how much you want them to. You ride out the phase and do things to lessen the occurences, lots of advice has been given on this-yet you continue to argue about most things people are saying to you. Perhaps you are like that in real life with her and you don't even realize it? You said your dh is argumentative too IIRC? I hope you can find some relief from the stress you are feeling.

I think you are confusing age-appropriate with... appropriate. LOL. Age-appropriate just means, it does not signify a problem with a child that age, although it would signify a problem with an older child. For example, if a 33-year-old (straight) man acted like a 15-year-old (straight) boy, he'd be diagnosed with nymphomania. (I am not sure if gay men can have "nymph"omania, hence the "straight" qualification there...) But nobody is going to tell a 15-year-old boy he's a nymphomaniac... at least, I cannot imagine the frenzy a teenage boy would have to be in to be diagnosed as obsessed. This is a bad example, LOL, but you see my point?

It does not mean that you should encourage the behavior in question.

My problem is, a lot of discipline techniques, because my child loves any type of interaction, encourage the action I want to at the very least gently discourage, yk?

I am NOT saying none of these things will work... but to sum up, more sensory input following inappropriate behavior will not work, so any answer to that effect is going to be rejected.

Since pretty much 99.99% of GD is about sensory input through personal connection for any situation, it is NO surprise that I'm rejecting most of the answers here.

That does not reflect my entire attitude towards life.







No, really, it doesn't. We manage an active, social, happy life in which my child chooses activities and asks to go out and we all three have friends and connections. I don't think if I were SUCH a negative nellie about everything and anything, that would be possible.

Which brings me to getting out... hm, I'm not sure if my child has been through that stage yet. She'll be four in October. She certainly ASKS to go out. She even asks for more activities and outings than we already have! And this does not surprise me, given her father's and my personality. If she ever asked to stay in, believe me... LOL... I would! I will keep it in mind.

Quote:

I have to ask, you said you are in Germany. When you say 90 % of parents spank, do you talk about Germans? Because this is definitely not true. I live in Germany and I have never ever seen anyone spank their children, and it is illegal anyway.
Nonononono. Of course not! But we have no choice but to live on the military post. No. Choice. Even if we wanted to spend 80% of my husband's income on private rental, the military would discontinue our sponsorship and thus, our visas, were we to live off-post.

The town in which we live is very small and though there are Germans with children, there are very few and the American population dwarfs the native population.

I WISH we could live among the Germans.









Quote:

I have a large appartment and two boys and work full time
Dingdingding! There's your answer... You work full time... outside the home? So your home does not get nearly as dirty. I can only assume that you are not spending nearly the time I am getting the kitchen, the playroom, and the work-area dirty.

Quote:

I don't get it, really I don't. You set a reasonable time for her bedtime, you do the routine, say goodnight and leave her room. What happens? Does she come out? Can't you just walk her back to her room and leave again and use all this time she comes out again and again doing a bit of laundry here, wash some dishes there, and be just completely bored with whatever she does. I think this is gentle. What I try to suggest is to use this time where she should go to sleep and fights it multitasking. Using the time for some things you have to do anyway.
Absolutely, however, this winds her up and she just doesn't. Stop. Coming. Out. Ever. So she's awake when it's time for ME to go to bed. And I'm sorry, but with a nursing toddler as well, I need at least some sleep. I don't think I could manage to keep my cool staying up until three a.m. or whatnot when she actually fell asleep and neither could she.

So that is my problem. The whole Supernanny trick that seems sooooo perfect doesn't work because that has to end sometime. In an hour. In two hours... okay, fine, four ho- Alright. It's been five hours. She has to stop, right?

Right?

But it doesn't.

So I'm not doing that. And she comes out OFTEN, too, and if I'm doing dishes, she will sneak into another room and play there!







Or into the bathroom and play THERE. So I can't see her.

Yeah.

Drop the nap... I don't know. If she weren't such a disaster at five p.m. I'd say yes. But she seems to be exhausted and always falls asleep in the car at that time...


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
tAnd she comes out OFTEN, too, and if I'm doing dishes, she will sneak into another room and play there!







Or into the bathroom and play THERE. So I can't see her.

If she is playing quietly, what's the problem? My DD1 has always been a night owl, alway was the last to fall asleep, but she wanted my attention at those times, which was difficult. If she plays independently, this is like a miracle! Make sure the bathroom is closed if you don't want her there, and just let her find her own rhythm.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have two kids and a small house (under 1100 SF) and I work PT from home (anywhere from 5-15 hours a week). I am here most of the day, most days (summer is miserable here) and I don't spend anything like 3 hours a day on housework. I mean, I don't know, because I don't do it all at once, but I would guess less than an hour, unless you are counting cooking and dishes as housework. (DH does the dinner dishes anyhow.) I sweep the kitchen floor daily, mop once a week, vacuum once a week (Dustbuster comes out daily or so for the mess around DS's chair, but that takes what, 5 minutes?), and clean the bathroom once a week. I dust when I think of it and deep clean the kitchen every so often. Laundry is a bitch, true (we CD) but laundry still can't be more than a couple hours a week, I guess? We leave toys where they lie till the end of the day, when the kids pick them up. DD cleans her own room once a week and the rest of the week I close the door.







My house is not spotless by any means--the windows are dirty, stuff is dusty, the kitchen could be cleaner--but I don't care.


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Absolutely, however, this winds her up and she just doesn't. Stop. Coming. Out. Ever. So she's awake when it's time for ME to go to bed. And I'm sorry, but with a nursing toddler as well, I need at least some sleep. I don't think I could manage to keep my cool staying up until three a.m. or whatnot when she actually fell asleep and neither could she.

So that is my problem. The whole Supernanny trick that seems sooooo perfect doesn't work because that has to end sometime. In an hour. In two hours... okay, fine, four ho- Alright. It's been five hours. She has to stop, right?

Right?

But it doesn't.

So I'm not doing that. And she comes out OFTEN, too, and if I'm doing dishes, she will sneak into another room and play there!







Or into the bathroom and play THERE. So I can't see her.

Yeah.

Drop the nap... I don't know. If she weren't such a disaster at five p.m. I'd say yes. But she seems to be exhausted and always falls asleep in the car at that time...

My very spirited 3 YO daughter is like this. DH or I basically had to sit in the dark room with her every night for upwards of two hours before she'd sleep soundly enough for us to escape. There was absolutely no way we could leave her there and do the put her back to bed thing. She's incredibly persistent, so we'd be doing it all night with her likely ending up in hysterics.

The only thing that helped was eliminating her nap completely. Some days she's pretty pooped and we allow a one-hour catnap, but that's it. If she gets more than that she can't sleep and we're back to square one. Now she falls asleep immediately at 7 p.m. and wakes up around 6:00 or 6:30 a.m. (before, when she had a nap, she was getting up around 5:30 a.m.).

The best part is that it finally taught her how to stay in bed by herself without needing one of us there. We told her that Daddy needed to do some chores and that as long as she laid quietly in her bed while I put DS to sleep she could come lay down in our room (what she really wanted) after I finished nursing DS to sleep. She finally had the maturity to wait patiently (I doubt this would have worked at a younger age) and since she was so tired she conked out right away every night.









I know you're reluctant to eliminate her nap, but it might be worth a try. Those first few days, run your errands do your fun away-from-the-house activities in the morning and make sure you're not in the car at her poop-out time to ensure that she stays up long enough to make it to bedtime.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

The whole Supernanny trick that seems sooooo perfect doesn't work because that has to end sometime. In an hour. In two hours... okay, fine, four ho- Alright. It's been five hours. She has to stop, right?
Gently--this here is why I would say your DD is not a typical kid. MY DD is not typical either, but there is no way in heck she would last 5 hours at this. And she is incredibly persistent. 5 hours is pretty out there.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It seems like I saw a supernanny where it did take quite a few hours, they put the kid back in time well over a hundred times before he stopped.

Anyway, I clean for about two hours a day, and I have a small house. I like things to be clean all the time because I think it's easier to put in two hours a day than to have to schedule and manage huge marathon cleaning sessions, and I like to be able to have people stop by to visit without being embarrassed. So I get where she is with the cleaning. I really do think it's less work in the long run to just do it every day.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

(1). My ds was as difficult as your dd at bedtime, and there was nothing wrong with him developmentally.

(2). When my ds was three the 'return him to the bed' approach would not have worked because he was very attached to me. Forced isolation resulted in his becoming more and more hysterical and if we'd kept it up for hours he could have died (due to serious heart issues). Letting him wear himself out was never an option. We actually knew cardiac kids who died that way.

(3). Bedtime did not become easy until he gave up naps at 4 and a half.

(4). In your situation, I'd stop the naps now. Your child has no major medical condition. Mine did, which is why I let him keep napping despite bedtime woes.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I really don't think there is a magic bullet or one thing that works all the time. Even now that my dd is seven there isn't one thing that always works, there are a few things that I have found work after a lot of hard and frustrating times of trying other things. I like your original idea of letting go of some things, though not out of a desire to give up but because some things aren't important to push on. Some things just shouldn't be pushed.

CPS isn't going to come at you for letting your child have messy hair, missing a session of brushing teeth, or smelling a little bad. They don't even act on the real abuse complaints so it would be very surprising if they acted on a false one. At three it is going to take a long time for her to smell bad enough for CPS to come. If the hair combing is the biggest problem then maybe she would like to get it wet in the shower each morning, if you have a detachable shower head it can be a lot of fun to just get your hair wet with the spray but not your body. The leave in conditioner is a lot of fun too and makes it makes combing easier. I use hair cream every morning so my dd thinks it is a fun treat to get cream in her hair. Cutting my dd's hair shorter, her choice, did make it easier to manage also so getting a cut may help with the hair drama especially if you let her look at the pictures and pick out a style with her.
Letting her stay up late and just playing in her room may work while you and the baby sleep, I let my dd stay up while I sleep. Now that she is older it is easier to reason with her and I have more things that work than I did when she was younger so getting her to bed when we absolutely have to be up in the morning isn't a problem. If you and the baby can change your schedule to stay up later then all of you could probably sleep later, it would probably take a week or two to regulate your bodies and tempers may be short but it may be worth it because then your dd wouldn't fall asleep during the nap time at school. Will her school let you take her in later if she is sleeping in? We have a lot of parents who sleep in sometimes and come in when it is convenient for them. If she is sleeping she isn't taking away from the time you have to prepare meals and make the house liveable. If that is too much hassle than maybe pull her out from school for a few weeks at naptime so her body is tired earlier. This does take a few weeks, and again there will be grumpiness, but it was so worth it to have a child who didn't take until midnight to fall asleep when I HAD to be up at 6 to get us ready for class and daycare. It is a big thing to have to go through, but the pay off is worth it. If she is at home already and you are having her nap at home then making sure you are out of the house during naptime (especially if you can get your younger one to sleep in a carrier or a stroller) or finding an afternoon preschool that doens't nap instead may also help. Afternoon preschool was very worth it for my dd even though it was a cut from full day because none of the kids napped and she didn't have to lie on a mat and rest at all.

I don't know if you want this advice, but before I start a big choir or start cooking I play with my dd the way she wants to play or I read her some books for about 20 minutes before. I find that once she has had my attention she is happy to let me do my work. I used to give her a bowl with a little flour and some other ingredients in it and let her sit at the table and stir in water and spices while I cooked every once in a while, that helped her have fun and it was a nice sensory thing. I also tried to do a lot of the meal prep when she was at school, but I didn't have a baby to pay attention to then so that may not work for you. If the baby is taking some of the priority and you think that this could be affecting how your dd feels about life than you might want to consider reading that sibling book that pops up on here from time to time. Your dd may be thinking that you spend all day paying attention to the baby and her anger over that may be coming out as arguments. My dd was ticked off and had hard days when her dad and I dropped her off together at daycare, her teacher pointed out that she though we were dumping her there to go have fun so we had to find a way to help her see that this isn't what we were doing. Sometimes kids thoughts about a situation and the reality of a situation are two different things.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

On the housecleaning-- a few months ago there was a thread somewhere on MDC about "how long do you spend cleaning every day, other than cooking." Some people chimed in with "two hours" immediately. Others said "What? two hours? I just do it a little at a time, no way is it two hours!" but then when asked to add up all those "little bits" of time, it did in fact add up to two hours a day, on average (some a little more, some a little less-- it of course depends on things like your energy level, the layout of the house, etc). So three hours including cooking sounds about right to me.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
On the housecleaning-- a few months ago there was a thread somewhere on MDC about "how long do you spend cleaning every day, other than cooking." Some people chimed in with "two hours" immediately. Others said "What? two hours? I just do it a little at a time, no way is it two hours!" but then when asked to add up all those "little bits" of time, it did in fact add up to two hours a day, on average (some a little more, some a little less-- it of course depends on things like your energy level, the layout of the house, etc). So three hours including cooking sounds about right to me.

Oh, thank you! I was all... most of my meal prep, plus all my chores (including paperwork), and the floors, counters, pick-up, laundry is done in those three hours, and I am really proud of that. I was beginning to think I was just slow, LOL.

Quote:

(4). In your situation, I'd stop the naps now. Your child has no major medical condition. Mine did, which is why I let him keep napping despite bedtime woes.
Okay, this deserves a thread in and of itself, but...

I napped until and through kindergarten.

So did my husband, my mother, my father, all my aunts and uncles, every single cousin (we have PICTURES of my high-energy cousin napping at age five...), and pretty much everyone.

There have been several recent studies showing that napping improves mental performance later in the day.

Until very recently nearly all pediatricians recommended a nap.

So why should I drop the nap? My thought is, _if she's getting more than enough sleep, she will wake up earlier._ And that is not happening. She wakes up when she hears us get up. She is TIRED. She needs to sleep.

Yes, it's hard to maintain good sleep hygiene but it's like a healthy diet... you can't just give up and say "Meh, this one's a toughie, I guess we won't do vegetables." Or whatever. Same with sleep.

Now, I am NOT judging anyone whose child is the exception to the rule and who did not need a nap throughout pre-school. I am speaking about people I know and I don't know your kids. But as for my child, I really do see her getting tired.

She has bags under her eyes at night, for crying out loud.







Poor little thing.

Quote:

Gently--this here is why I would say your DD is not a typical kid. MY DD is not typical either, but there is no way in heck she would last 5 hours at this. And she is incredibly persistent. 5 hours is pretty out there.
I don't think most adults last five hours, which is why we don't know how typical this is, LOL! She just thrives off interaction. That may not be typical, but it's almost like... it's not an energy thing. She can also sit for three hours straight _if I'm there_.

I am really happy to hear Supernanny did it for five hours. How long did it take the next time? I have seen several episodes and most of the time it lasted 45 minutes, tops.

Quote:

If she is playing quietly, what's the problem?
She's not sleeping... she's yawning and tired but not sleeping.

Quote:

I sweep the kitchen floor daily, mop once a week, vacuum once a week
Our floors would be really gross if I did this. I mean nasty. We're talking dustbunnies and slime and ugh, ugh, ugh. I have let them go for a maximum of five days and there is just no way. I don't know, I guess you'd have to see it, and maybe we eat really messy food (toddler is on a booster, so food falls on the floor), but mopping weekly will NOT cut it.

Sweep house once a day, plus after meals around the table, mop daily (kitchen and bathroom), no vacuuming.

Quote:

Laundry is a bitch, true (we CD) but laundry still can't be more than a couple hours a week, I guess?
I bet you don't live on the third floor with a communal laundry room in the basement, do you?

I do laundry about every other day to keep it manageable. It takes me a long freaking time to get down there with the three-year-old so I try to do most of it by-the-by but it doesn't always happen. Folding takes about 30 minutes, so it takes an average of 30 minutes a day I suppose. That's a lot!

And when I say three hours, I mean ALL the housework. All of it, including most of the grocery shopping. From bills to filing to e-bay packaging to everything. The rest of the day we are eating, focused on kids, out and about.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

So why should I drop the nap?
Because you just said she isn't sleeping at bedtime. I must have misunderstood.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Honestly, I'm a bit baffled about what you are looking for here.
Clearly things aren't working for you at the moment.
You claim to understand child appropriate behaviour and yet examples of how you deal with issues with your child don't seem to reflect that understanding.

You have basically two choices, assuming you want to actually make a change.
You either change your environment or you change your approach.
And yet for 12 pages you argue almost every one of the suggestions -philosophical or practical that anyone gives you claiming it won't work or you have already tried it.

I get that your life is stressful with one baby and one toddler and a husband who is away. But many of us have similar levels of stress in our lives and yet any advice is dismissed because you think its not applicable to you.

And yes I think you are setting up an extremely unhealthy dynamic in your relationship with this child. A heathy parent child relationship does not leave the parent feeling as though they are bullied, or that the 3 year old is setting them up or that they should no longer engage at all with their 3 year old, or that they can't ever say yes because then the child "wins". You have other options than positioning normal 3 year old behaviours in this way and you have been given pages and pages of suggestions about how you might do that.

Honestly - why do you think your child is so opositional and argumentative?
She sounds smart - maybe she is modelling behaviour she is seeing or maybe she is trying to interact with you on what she perceives as your own terms.

I think you need a break, some IRL support, and some help coming to a more peaceful relationship with your daughter. MDC can only help you with that if you are willing to be open to it.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Because you just said she isn't sleeping at bedtime. I must have misunderstood.

This exactly. This is why I chose to stop naps and it turned out that my dd got better sleep. I also took naps until I started first grade and went to an actual school, my dd's sleep needs and the times when she gets optimal sleep are different from what mine where. I believe the recommendations are related to how much time children spend sleeping overall and not whether they nap or not. They also say that some kids have different needs regarding sleep. You may find, like many people who recommend dropping the nap have found, that your child falls asleep earlier and easier once you drop the nap. Yes she will be tired and grumpy for a couple weeks until she regulates, but after that things should be much much much much easier, at least at bedtime. (I think we started going back up in happiness and parenting skills when dd dropped her nap and I got to actually sleep at night instead of fight her to sleep).


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

She has bags under her eyes at night, for crying out loud. Poor little thing.>>>>>

Dark circles under the eyes can also be a sinus/allergy problem. Just in case she still has them after returning to a normal sleep schedule.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Yes, it's hard to maintain good sleep hygiene but it's like a healthy diet... you can't just give up and say "Meh, this one's a toughie, I guess we won't do vegetables." Or whatever. Same with sleep.
If the veggies left circles under your child's eyes and led to malnutrition, you would try a different diet. Same with sleep.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
And yet for 12 pages you argue almost every one of the suggestions -philosophical or practical that anyone gives you claiming it won't work or you have already tried it.

<snip>
Honestly - why do you think your child is so opositional and argumentative?
She sounds smart - maybe she is modelling behaviour she is seeing or maybe she is trying to interact with you on what she perceives as your own terms.









It sounds like you've got a houseful of people who are argumentative. That in and of itself isn't bad. But, I do think that repositioning your thinking will help. It's helped me a lot to come to the realization that I can let an argument go. I grew up in a family where we argued tooth and nail about a lot of stuff. Some of that's fine. I developed a lot of good skills doing that. But it also added a lot of unneeded stress when there didn't need to be stress.

My favorite line from one of ds's preschool teachers was: "Oh, it looks like we have different ideas about that." Completely validates their view, without capitulating.

It does sound like things are looking up. That's good. But I will repeat a point that I've made before: You need to find a way for _you_ to destress. Your 3 year old is not in a position to fully regulate her emotions, she's relying on you to help co-regulate. My kids' behavior is always worse when I'm stressed. Partly it's because I 'feel' it more, but partly it's because they pick up on my tension.

P.S. For the raspberries, try this: Tell your daughter that she might be able to do raspberries, but by no means should she ever call you "snickelfritz" or "chartreuse" or whatever silly word you want. She will, being 3 and oppositional, call you 'snickelfritz'. Then react as if she's said the worst thing in the world. Ham it up. Over react. She'll think it's hysterical, and do it again. Ham it up again.

This technique comes directly from Playful Parenting (Larry Cohen) and has worked really well the times my kids have had words they've used that I don't like. It does several things: First, it gives her a replacement. It's much easier to replace an undesirable behavior with a more desirable one. Second, it gets her lots of attention, but in a positive way. Third, it's just plain funny and it lightens everyone's mood.


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## clickclackmoo (Mar 12, 2010)

I've been ruminating on what has changed between me and my DD since she was three and come up with the following:

1. I am a happy mommy and not a struggling one with a new baby. Being a happy mommy means that no matter what the kids are up to, it's all pretty much _O.K._ Know what I mean? Like, if I'm pretty contented with life, DD can be rude, refuse to put on her shoes and wipe her nose on her dress a thousand times a day (that one just about gives me a heart attack but I try to say very little aside from, 'want a tissue?'), she can do most things and I still have the reserves to deal with it. I notice that when my reserves get low, it all goes south.

2. I think she feels far less pressure to do this or be that - for the majority of situations, my mood doesn't depend on HER. I think it's freeing for a young person - they're more likely to feel at ease and less likely to test your boundaries if they can rely on you that way. It's anxiety-making the other way. We've been there, I know.

3. Bedtime specific - she was definitely anxious during bedtimes at three, and compelled to draw them out as long as she could. We brought in photos of us, put music on her cd player to listen to, played various types of 'we love you sooooooooo much!' games, and allowed her to call us back over and over and over and over again, provided she stayed in bed. We tried to keep it cheerful and loving, is what I'm saying, (even though it was a royal pain in the #$%^&*,) and eventually the problem disappeared. Like, poof! She also stopped napping regularly...

4. Since I got over the new baby hump, I try really hard to pay attention to when I'm tired and do things to manage that - mommy time out, mommy read a book or knit a little. I meditate before bed: what things I loved about the day, what I loved about the girls, what I didn't love, then just let it all go for a while. Excellent mental discipline.

5. I have a handful of tricks to turnaround negativity - like, 'hey, we've been having so much fun today, remember that? Wasn't that a great moment?' It can derail an argument as it starts, and boost mommy morale even if it doesn't. And we talk about things we love or enjoy very frequently, like every mealtime - also great for boosting morale across the board.

I hadn't thought of it quite like this until now, it's just what we do. I really hope after the thorough ear-bashing you've gotten in this thread that you find lots of good things to do with your DD, and even more good ways of thinking about your relationship. She sounds normal to me. Probably very charming in the right circumstances too - a child that can argue can also carry on a conversation, right?


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clickclackmoo* 
...I try really hard to pay attention to when I'm tired and do things to manage that - mommy time out, mommy read a book or knit a little....

Totally agree with your post! I wanted to highlight the tired part because I notice there are *certain* times of the month when I am MUCH less patient than others.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

Honestly, I'm a bit baffled about what you are looking for here.
Advice that helps me and my family, not some idealized version of the GD family in which dad is supportive, there's extended family around the corner, the child responds positively to verbal support because, well, she's sensitive like that, etc. And you know what?

I have gotten advice like that and I appreciated it. *Just because I might have tried what you suggested or your advice is not something that would work for us does not mean I have turned down every piece of advice.* Just perhaps some that worked for YOUR family.

Quote:

You claim to understand child appropriate behaviour and yet examples of how you deal with issues with your child don't seem to reflect that understanding.
Again, I don't thing accepting abuse is the same as accepting that something's normal. Hitting is a normal phase for many 2 - 3 year olds. It's not okay and the response should not be one that encourages more hitting.

Wait, wait, I know what you're thinking! _"But our suggestions would NEVER encourage hitting!"_ Well, re-think your paradigm, 'cause guess what. They would in my child and they would in some other children.

Quote:

You have basically two choices, assuming you want to actually make a change.
Wow. I've said over and over three major changes I've made, in addition to starting cognitive behavior therapy (with a workbook) and you say, "assuming you actually want to make a change"?

That's really not helpful. It seems like you think you know the answer for me, and my family, and aren't willing to accept that you know what's best for us.

Here I have made these positive changes that are working, but I still have some issues, and you are suggesting that I don't want to change? I don't really understand that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Because you just said she isn't sleeping at bedtime. I must have misunderstood.

Yes, but that doesn't mean she's not tired... you know? I think we all know people who have trouble falling asleep even when they're tired.

Quote:

My ds was as difficult as your dd at bedtime, and there was nothing wrong with him developmentally.
BTW, I appreciate that.









Quote:

hey, we've been having so much fun today, remember that? Wasn't that a great moment?' It can derail an argument as it starts, and boost mommy morale even if it doesn't.
Such a good suggestion... I do that sometimes, but probably not enough. And I think I usually do it in a negative way, tbh... even if just in my own head, like, "Dude, this day was so great and now we have to screw it up???"










Quote:

If the veggies left circles under your child's eyes and led to malnutrition, you would try a different diet. Same with sleep.
But STILL with fresh fruits and vegetables! If she doesn't nap, she gets less sleep, period. I know because we've done it twice and it didn't work.

She does nap during the day... just an hour after I put her down, no matter when I put her down.









I'm going to wait it out until winter. The days will be much shorter. I can see skipping the nap at that time, letting baby have a shorter nap, and earlier bedtime. The sun sets at 10:00 p.m. here now so we can afford to spend 2.5 hrs doing the nap thing in the afternoon. Wintertime... no.

Quote:

Probably very charming in the right circumstances too - a child that can argue can also carry on a conversation, right
Haha, almost TOO charming. A conversation, yes, or a monologue, or, as she prefers, _a scripted dialogue_ in which she tells each party what to say.

Yes. That's my child. The one telling you to say "I thought so," because that's what mermaids say.

Quote:

P.S. For the raspberries, try this: Tell your daughter that she might be able to do raspberries, but by no means should she ever call you "snickelfritz" or "chartreuse" or whatever silly word you want. She will, being 3 and oppositional, call you 'snickelfritz'. Then react as if she's said the worst thing in the world. Ham it up. Over react. She'll think it's hysterical, and do it again. Ham it up again.
Ok, I will do this for the sheer pleasure of hearing her say "snicklefritz" and I don't care if it stops the raspberries, that will be great. Also looking forward to the baby imitating it.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

A few more thoughts for you...

Have you tried things like telling her, "Don't you DARE go to bed, you will be in so much trouble! You better not close your eyes!" My daughter just loves it when I tell her NOT to do a thing she KNOWS I want her to do. This works almost too well with tooth brushing. If she is being a PITA about brushing her teeth and I say, "Fine, we won't brush your teeth." She will FREAK OUT. "NO MOMMY I DON'T WANT CAVITIES!"

No one said 3 yo's are logical!










Do you use lots of conditioner in her hair? I'm sorry if that is a dumb question but I recently met a mom who was seriously shocked that I could do B's super thick curly hair with very little trouble, but had never even thought to use conditioner on her own daughter. Also, re: hair, what if you guys do a project together and make little hair clips? You can buy alligator type clips very cheap and just glue things onto them, and then she can put them in her hair herself. B loves to "be fancy" and lately the more stuff we can put in her hair, the better! Another option is a tight braid, if you can leave that in for a few days, it's a few days with a few less battles, kwim?

I'm finding this age is all about the battles, and we as parents have to accept that. They are figuring out their independence. Just think how amazing your child is going to be as an adult! It's just NOW that it drives us bonkers. So instead of trying to *end* the battles, it's better to figure out how to deal with them, and use lots of different things, and then this too will pass!

(FWIW I have thick, curly, but FINE hair and yes it does knot up... lots and lots of conditioner! Comb from the bottom up. When B has big massive knots I separate them as much as I can by hand before I try to brush.)

Quote:

You would THINK I could just say, "Sweetie, I can't wait to get to the park! Let's have our rest so we can get out there!" and she'd be all, "Oh, yeah!"
Yeah, no, I wouldn't think that. They are THREE. Their JOB is to make us crazy. So when you say to your kid "I can't wait to get to the park!" she hears "Oooooh, here's a chance to assert my power and drive mommy crazy!" The only way I have found to handle this well, is to get ready early. When I'm running late my daughter can sense it and drags her feet even more. Even if we are en route to something she adores.

Hey does she like music? Maybe you can put on some music during chores and have her "help," or even just dance around? Bella loves to help "vacuum" and a spray bottle with water to clean the floor makes her so excited. I have to run but oh I have lots of ideas!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

LOL... Yes, reverse psychology does definitely work *at times* but I do feel it's too disingenuous to use often. It absolutely must be alternated. And no it does not work with sleep. Sadly!

Quote:

lots and lots of conditioner! Comb from the bottom up. When B has big massive knots I separate them as much as I can by hand before I try to brush
Yes, I do that, bottom up for sure. I also hold it in my hand so any pulling will not pull her head back. The fact is, sometimes it does hurt when I don't condition it (I guess we could condition it nightly... ack, parabens! LOL) plus, she has to SIT STILL and for some reason, it's not like when she does a craft. (No crafts when combing hair or she leans over too far and moves her head too much.)

Honestly, I think she just does not like it. I really am thinking about cutting it, though she has gorgeous hair.









Quote:

So when you say to your kid "I can't wait to get to the park!" she hears "Oooooh, here's a chance to assert my power and drive mommy crazy!"
Haha, two peas in a pod, seriously. I know, I know it ALL TOO WELL.









Quote:

Another option is a tight braid, if you can leave that in for a few days,
I'm not sure if I can't get it tight enough but it gets so messy looking! I should try... if she would sit still...

Plus... not to repeat myself... it's not about the hair, as you interpreted. It's about the conflict itself. So solving one problem will just result in another. For that, I really think these contests / challenges / games have helped HUGELY. It is a GREAT outlet for her and keeps her from getting on my nerves by challenging me. I think that may be the best parenting tip I've ever received.

Sometimes, though, it's just not happening.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

It's SO hard to get enough sleep when the sun sets at 10 p.m. and then comes up at 3 or 4. I'd forgotten about that issue. Do you have blackout shades on the window of her room?


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

EdnaMarie, I just wanted to chime in to say that your daughter sounds very spirited. I've been keeping up on this thread off and on and as a parent of a spirited 3 YO, I can understand where you're coming from.

It is almost impossible to apply most "normal" parenting advice to child who is more intense, sensitive, perceptive, persistent, and energetic. It just doesn't work, which is frustrating for us parents.

I'm not sure if anyone suggested this book, but I've really gotten a lot out of "Raising Your Spirited Child". It's not a magic bullet, and I'm on my third read. But I will say that it's really helped me change my outlook and expectations of my spirited daughter. I keep it on my nightstand and read a chapter or two when I'm feeling overwhelmed. Since I've read it before, it's good to get a little refresher and reminder of what my little girl needs from me.

I know for me, these days it's much less about her behavior and more about my own. More often than not my reactions and expectations are what cause things to escalate. If I can catch her before she starts to spiral (and trust me, I still miss her cues regularly) then I can try to head off problem behavior before it gets out of control.

I'm glad you're starting to see some success! Many hugs to you!!!


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

Oh, and I wanted to chime in to second that suggestion to condition your daughter's hair every night. It's really the only thing that keeps my daughter's tangles at bay. Hair brushing is much less traumatic these days.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
LOL... Yes, reverse psychology does definitely work *at times* but I do feel it's too disingenuous to use often. It absolutely must be alternated. And no it does not work with sleep. Sadly!

Yes, I do that, bottom up for sure. I also hold it in my hand so any pulling will not pull her head back. The fact is, sometimes it does hurt when I don't condition it (I guess we could condition it nightly... ack, parabens! LOL) plus, she has to SIT STILL and for some reason, it's not like when she does a craft. (No crafts when combing hair or she leans over too far and moves her head too much.)

Honestly, I think she just does not like it. I really am thinking about cutting it, though she has gorgeous hair.










Well if you have to, you have to, but yes I do think you should condition it nightly, or at least every time you brush it. Do you brush it wet? I know this goes against every bit of hair advice in the world, but for me I find an actual brush is gentler than a comb. For myself as well as for Bella.

As for parabens, I guess it's a balance between misery now or potential problems later. Though there are some lovely natural conditioners that have nothing bad in them, they are pricey though. oyinhandmade.com makes a conditioner that is seriously AMAZING for tangles.

Quote:

I'm not sure if I can't get it tight enough but it gets so messy looking! I should try... if she would sit still...
If I do it wet, and maybe even a smidge of leave-in conditioner (or olive oil or something too, could work!), it seems to stay put pretty well. I just put five braids in Bella's hair. She wanted 10 but could only sit through 5. And that's WHILE watching TV!

Quote:

Plus... not to repeat myself... it's not about the hair, as you interpreted. It's about the conflict itself. So solving one problem will just result in another. For that, I really think these contests / challenges / games have helped HUGELY. It is a GREAT outlet for her and keeps her from getting on my nerves by challenging me. I think that may be the best parenting tip I've ever received.

Sometimes, though, it's just not happening.
Honey I KNOW it is not about the hair, but what I and other moms have been trying to tell you is that all of this testing limits, pushing buttons, and outright defiance? TOTALLY NORMAL. So when you see something that is consistently a problem, it does help to deal with it. And yes, after you deal with it another problem will come up. Welcome to parenting! I mean it's not that much different from babyhood in the sense that just when you get one thing down, something new pops up. The challenges never go away. It's normal for YOU to get tired of dealing with it, too, btw.

Contests and games are a GREAT parenting tool, and we use it often. But you are right in that nothing works all the time, you will not always have the energy to THINK of something specific, sometimes we just want our kids to DO WHAT WE TELL THEM TO. It's hard, you know??? It just is. But our spirited, defiant, intelligent, argumentative girls are going to grow up and be amazing, strong women! It's just... NOW... it is like ACK!!!


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

BTW, the reason I came over to this thread to read was to get ideas for MY spirited argumentative girl. You are *so* not alone.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

But STILL with fresh fruits and vegetables! If she doesn't nap, she gets less sleep, period. I know because we've done it twice and it didn't work.
I don't follow your logic. You have stated the current routine leaves your child exhausted. Many children sleep more and better sans nap. 'No nap' does not equal less sleep. Cutting out the nap is a transition. It may take a few weeks, not twice, to see the results.


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Many children sleep more and better sans nap. 'No nap' does not equal less sleep. Cutting out the nap is a transition. It may take a few weeks, not twice, to see the results.

I second this. DD actually sleeps a bit longer and gets better quality sleep without a nap.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

For sleep, allergy, and developmental issues I suggest asking for issue specific help on the Nighttime Parenting, Ages and Stages, Allergy, and Special needs forums. Some of the issues recurring in this thread are not discipline related, thus making advice unhelpful from the perspective of this forum.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
First, the choice was you comb or I do, and the consequence of it not happening is shaving. Not "Comb your hair or I'll shave it!"

Of course you think thick hair gets tangled much worse than fine hair. Your child has thick hair--nobody could possibly have it worse. But fine hair gets in KNOTS and must be combed daily.

Comb while she's SLEEPING? How easy is it to comb your child's hair? Are you kidding? And I mean that honestly... is this one of those, cut your baby's fingernails while she's sleeping things? Because that made me laugh and laugh when I first read it (about the fingernails).

I guess some people have heavy sleepers!

Actually, she does comb it herself.

And who said I didn't sing and speak gently to her while combing her hair?

You are putting a lot of meanness into what I'm doing that's not there.









There was no shouting, there were distractions offered. Sigh.

Sure, if she wanted it to really hurt and be in horrid tangles. It literally gets into knots, huge knots and I have had to cut them out after missing a day. Can you just trust me that the "comb or cut" is quite literal and actually true?








: You know what's important to me? A healthy, happy kid. One that is able to sleep, eat, and play and go outside. A happy baby that is not eating moldy food off the floor. We live in a SMALL house that must be mopped every other day or I literally find the baby eating bizarre stuff off the floor.

I do want some control over our lives, that's right. Because in order to establish routine, you need to control more or less what is happening when. Going with the flow does NOT work with my older daughter, and it does NOT work with me (different reasons, though).

How can I have a routine without making it happen? It's not as if we're going to spontaneously end up dressed and fed and at the park. That is something I struggle for every day, I struggle HARD to make it happen.

You would THINK I could just say, "Sweetie, I can't wait to get to the park! Let's have our rest so we can get out there!" and she'd be all, "Oh, yeah!"

But that's not what happens. In reality, we have two big events plus one chore per day, and it is like pulling teeth.

Could we stay in daily? Sure. I'd say a good half the parents here do. But to me, staying in and just lolling around in a dirty house for the sake of avoiding an argument seems a pretty weak parenting strategy, to be honest.

Ever since the maid and cook left, it's true, I've felt very overwhelmed about having to keep the house safe and eat nutritious meals. My husband cut off my $1000 monthly food budget for eating hot meals out once or twice a day, and Taco Bell just doesn't hit the spot.

So YES, living in a reasonably clean house and cooking are THAT important to me.

I mean are you joking? Or perhaps you are into raw foods, in which case, I will just tell you... we aren't. LOL!

Oh, they can "help" alright, as the do. I can't tell you how many times I've scraped "dough" off the floor, or lost half a loaf of bread to a pre-schooler that finds yeasty dough more appealing than, say, chocolate chips.

They help.

I'm not ignoring them when I'm doing stuff.

It's washing the dishes, sweeping the floors, mopping the floors (I'm not sure if you think it's acceptable to have your slippers stick to the kitchen floor... I'm not really keen on it-- did I mention I have a 15-month-old as well?), folding the laundry, doing the laundry, picking up chokeable non-toys from the playroom, and filing bills we have to pay, doing work-from-home (ebay) stuff, etc.

I don't do this perfect folding of laundry. I just kind of try to keep it from getting massively wrinkled in a huge ball.

And yes, housework takes me three hours, including dinner prep so we can eat.

So sue me.

I'm not going to eat at Taco Bell nightly and live in squalor in dirty clothes. When I see people who are doing that, they look massively unhappy and unhealthy. I am sure they think it's just too much trouble to try and get their kids in a row and their house reasonably clean so they feel they can leave and not come back and cry.

I can understand that. I could not personally face that life, however and I know for a fact (because we had to stay in our two months here) that my daughter couldn't, either.

We like to eat good meals, to live in a reasonably orderly home which does not present an immediate danger to our health and safety, wear clean clothes that don't itch, and play outside.

As it is, right now there is no toilet paper, I have two loads of laundry that need to be brought down three flights of stairs (and then dried... and then back up...), the playroom was destroyed by the baby, and the dishes are dirty.

And I got a LOT done today, and the kids were great.

No, slacking on the housework is not where we have any room, sorry!


you sound very angry, and again, sorry to say, very black and white. My house is clean enough, even though I don't spend much time cleaning it. I don't eat out, but many meals can be prepared very quickly. I have two children: one with thick hair, one with fine hair. Brushing-wise, there's no contest which is easier (fine), but I'm not turning it into a martyr contest. It's just how it is. But yeah, my thick-haired kid is a heavy sleeper, once she's asleep.

You get so much good advice here, but you seem very resistant about reflecting on your attitude and actions. Which is fine, but it makes it harder to try new things, which is what your OP seemed to be all about.

As long as you feel so very sorry for yourself, I'm afraid you're not going to have the energy or the perspective to make the changes you seem to need


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Yes, I do that, bottom up for sure. I also hold it in my hand so any pulling will not pull her head back. The fact is, sometimes it does hurt when I don't condition it (I guess we could condition it nightly... ack, parabens! LOL) plus, she has to SIT STILL and for some reason, it's not like when she does a craft. (No crafts when combing hair or she leans over too far and moves her head too much.)

Honestly, I think she just does not like it. I really am thinking about cutting it, though she has gorgeous hair.









Have you tried a soft natural boar hair bristle brush? That type of brush is more for making hair shine than normal detangling and styling so they take a bit longer but they don't pull at all. My DD calls it her princess brush and doesn't mind me brushing her hair at all with it. She also has very fine hair that knots up easily and we did keep it short until last winter when she said she wanted to let it grow out. My DH is the only one in the family who can use a comb, it just pulls too much with every one else.

It does sound like you and your DD are doing better. Hey that's great







. No advice on the other issues ........ our parenting styles and personalities are just too different. I'm still glad to hear the stress is less.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee* 
you sound very angry, and again, sorry to say, very black and white. My house is clean enough, even though I don't spend much time cleaning it. I don't eat out, but many meals can be prepared very quickly. I have two children: one with thick hair, one with fine hair. Brushing-wise, there's no contest which is easier (fine), but I'm not turning it into a martyr contest. It's just how it is. But yeah, my thick-haired kid is a heavy sleeper, once she's asleep.

You get so much good advice here, but you seem very resistant about reflecting on your attitude and actions. Which is fine, but it makes it harder to try new things, which is what your OP seemed to be all about.

As long as you feel so very sorry for yourself, I'm afraid you're not going to have the energy or the perspective to make the changes you seem to need









Martyr? Self-pity? Angry?

Dude, I'm not sure if there's projection going on here or what, but combing advice was just not helpful, THANKS ANYWAY.

I'm asking about DISCIPLINE, not sleep, or hair, or whatever.

I am not sure where that got lost... because as HeartMama points out, those would be better addressed elsewhere.

I do find it irritating that people assume that my problems are due to the fact that I can't keep house or comb hair or I don't know, whatever. If only I had the right brush, the right conditioner, the right bed, the right climate, the right husband, THEN I could be a good parent.

I assure you, we live quite a happy, organized life in many respects, and we are not in significant need of help in those regards. Is it perfect? No.

_But we need help dealing with when it's not perfect, not with making it perfect._ There will ALWAYS be a time when she's hungry, not well-rested, not able to have enough time to transition, feeling lonely. Dealing with those times is the hard part, not dealing with the times when she has everything she needs.

Heartmama, re: sleep: she's tired when she DOESN'T sleep. When she does sleep (which she can, according to the loose schedule we worked out), she does great. However, ever since I tried to do sleep without rewards or punishments (incentives to lie still in bed to fall asleep), things have gone downhill, since she keeps stimulating herself. This is why it's really a discipline (in the teaching sense) issue.

She HAD ways to fall asleep, she HAD a sleep routine that was working. But without rewards, she seems unable to control herself to make it happen.

It all fell apart when I decided to be good and really committed to gentle discipline since I felt rewards were getting out of hand.

But answering her stimulation doesn't work, nor does staying with her (one of the main reasons she sleeps in her own bed is that she was taking three hours to fall asleep laying in bed with me, which as a military mother of two was NOT working for us).

If you still think that goes under nighttime parenting, I will open a thread there, but I was thinking that because more or less the routine HAD been working, only with incentives, it was more of a discipline thing.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

She HAD ways to fall asleep, she HAD a sleep routine that was working. But without rewards, she seems unable to control herself to make it happen.

It all fell apart when I decided to be good and really committed to gentle discipline since I felt rewards were getting out of hand.
Gentle discipline includes rewards. I got my son to sleep in his own room with a 7 day chart, having him mark each night he slept in his own room, and took him to the toy store if he made it through a full week. For him, this worked. I have no problem with rewards.

Sounds like you have a solution to your problem. That is great to hear


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Gently: it is difficult to know a person over a dozen of posts. But if you are completely and utterly honest with yourself, and you don't have to admit to this publicly, but you need to answer this question to yourself, and take it from there:

Are you reacting to your little one in the same way you've been reacting here?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, some of this feels like crazy-making to me.

There's been plenty of "big picture" advice given here. Most of which was met with, "it's only these couple of issues." Now that people are trying to take on each individual issue, it's back to, "no, it's ALL the time! Stop telling me about these individual issues."

I am seriously







.

I would suggest co-sleeping for the sleep stuff. My children do not go to bed/sleep on their own, they need us to lay with them. It's about meeting the kid where they are, right? AP?


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
She HAD ways to fall asleep, she HAD a sleep routine that was working. But without rewards, she seems unable to control herself to make it happen.

It all fell apart when I decided to be good and really committed to gentle discipline since I felt rewards were getting out of hand.

I guess, to me it seems that you have your answer.

In meeting your need to be textbook gd and 'good' (what exactly is good anyway?), you aren't meeting her needs. If it was working, why did you change it?


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

I do find it irritating that people assume that my problems are due to the fact that I can't keep house or comb hair or I don't know, whatever. If only I had the right brush, the right conditioner, the right bed, the right climate, the right husband, THEN I could be a good parent.
You DO sound like a very committed parent. I don't really view parents as 'good' or 'bad' based on how they're affected by things they go through with their children. What I was trying to say, probably not very clearly, is that you and your DD might be happier if you let some battles rest and focus on the things and moments that work well.

You can probably clean house or comb hair in a way that would be totally adequate as long as your standards aren't up to some level of perfection that simply doesn't usually work out in the real world.

Hugs and strength to you mama.


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## spmamma (Sep 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee* 
You DO sound like a very committed parent. I don't really view parents as 'good' or 'bad' based on how they're affected by things they go through with their children. What I was trying to say, probably not very clearly, is that you and your DD might be happier if you let some battles rest and focus on the things and moments that work well.

You can probably clean house or comb hair in a way that would be totally adequate as long as your standards aren't up to some level of perfection that simply doesn't usually work out in the real world.

Hugs and strength to you mama.

I totally agree.

I can only speak for myself when I say that I was offering advice regarding specific issues (tangled hair) in an attempt to help you overcome that one little hurdle. I know, of course, that conquering tangled hair isn't going to solve all of your problems, but sometimes just overcoming _one_ issue can make you feel that much better or at least free up some of your energy for the bigger stuff.

Many hugs to to you mama.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
_But we need help dealing with when it's not perfect, not with making it perfect._ There will ALWAYS be a time when she's hungry, not well-rested, not able to have enough time to transition, feeling lonely. Dealing with those times is the hard part, not dealing with the times when she has everything she needs.

She HAD ways to fall asleep, she HAD a sleep routine that was working. But without rewards, she seems unable to control herself to make it happen.

It all fell apart when I decided to be good and really committed to gentle discipline since I felt rewards were getting out of hand.


The thing about GD is that it isn't a checklist. It isn't about using exactly right words or picking exactly the right strategy for each challenge which I sense is what you are after here.
It's about context and intent. It's about parenting from the premise of loving respect and helping your child to learn to navigate their world successfully.

As a parent it is your responsibility to help your child meet their needs - that is where creative parenting comes in and that is why so many people are trying to offer you hands on practical suggestions about everything from hair brushing to managing household tasks in a way that will give you more time and energy for your kids.

If you are stuck in a situation where the child is acting in unacceptable ways because their base needs aren't being met then you need to 1) help your child recognize them and 2) help the child meet them. We use HALT in our family. If a child is out of sorts we check in to see if they are Hungry Angry Lonely or Tired and we try to identify and meet those needs first before we deal with the resulting behavior.

If for example you want to talk bedtime and what you are currently doing isn't working (and assuming it isn't complicated by nutrition, lack of exercise or too much sleep) then you can move on to some other strategies.

Ask her what she would like for bedtime - what would help her go to sleep easier. Then tell her what your expectations are - ie you need to be in your room, quiet and resting by 9:00 each night because I need to be able to do ABC.
Then together create a routine that incorporates what she needs with what you need. Find some creative ways to help her settle. You could try white noise machines, classical music, always finishing story time with the same sleepy poems (great for slowing into a rhythmic breathing pattern) audio books, sweet dream spray, a special doll from Dad, prayers, meditation, dream catchers or inventing a sweet dream before bed, songs, having 15 minutes of lie down time with you where you connect about your day, blowing out a candle after stories, special night light, a light in the hall, music she can hear from outside her room so she knows you are there, a routine of checking in on her every 15 minutes until she falls asleep.... the list of potential options to try is endless.

The thing is she is clearly communicating she needs help getting off to sleep. She's not old enough to solve this problem on her own and she's probably not able to even articulate what the problem without help. And she is unable to meet your expectation that bedtime "should" look like whatever you think it should look like. A GD parent starts at this place of "how can I help her meet her needs". If you start from the place of the child "should" then your paradigm is about what they aren't doing rather than it being about what you can do to help. The responsibility is not hers - it's yours. Yes it is work but thats part and parcel of parenting young children and hopefully it can be fulfilling work.

The second thing about GD is that because it is based on respect, it also honours the parents role in all of this. Children are born to adults for a reason. They take their cues from us. I know you didn't find Hold on to your Kids resonated with you but I think that there are concepts there that may help you. As the parent you set the tone of your relationship and of your days. The only parenting power you truly have resides in the connection between you and your child. If that connection isn't strong you can't parent from a position of strength and respect and so much of what you have to rely on will be external motivators like rewards or punishments or coercive parenting. If the child feels safe in that connection then they will operate from a place of respect within it. If you are clear about your expectations then the child will work to meet them because maintaining that connection with you is important to them.

For example my kids have never hit me. They very rarely ever hit each other. The expectation in our family is that is not acceptable. Any attempt at hitting from the time they were babies was met with a clear unequivocal "You may not hit" and later as they became verbal we added "Use your words." I can not expect my kids to respect me as their parent if I don't respect myself and my role as their mother enough to set those sorts of expectations for all of us.

And before you dismiss this as not possible with your child, we went through a very challenging time when my oldest was 3 and my twins were born - and then I had a 4th baby 2 years later so I have been where you are - in spades. Little local family support, partner working and out of the house a lot (granted not away completely), small house, spirited child, special needs child, health issues - all of it. My point in saying this is that circumstances and even the child's personality is secondary to the tone you set for your family and the way you approach parenting. Your OP and many of your subsequent posts indicate that you are willing, if you haven't already, to hand over your parenting power to your child which will leave her feeling insecure and searching for appropriate boundaries and connection. The more you allow yourself to take a defeatist position with respect to your child and your role as her parent the worse you both feel. My guess is that some of this is feeding her current need to try to engage you and find the boundaries.

Some other books that might help

Kids, parents and power struggles (excellent)
How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk
Between Parent and Child
Kids are worth it
Buddhism for mothers

Good luck to you
Karen


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
She HAD ways to fall asleep, she HAD a sleep routine that was working. But without rewards, she seems unable to control herself to make it happen.

It all fell apart when I decided to be good and really committed to gentle discipline since I felt rewards were getting out of hand.

You know, it's OK to try out a new way of doing things and then admit that it's not working for you and go back to the old ways. It's also important, I think, to model for our kids how you recover from a mistake. "You know, I tried this, and it didn't work, so let's go back to the old way."

I tried consentual living for about 2 days. I found it didn't fit my personality. Honestly, I'd rather have an argument and lose than spend 2 hours trying to get everyone to come to an agreement that we can all live with. (And before anyone who actually does this complains, I know that's probably an inaccurate representation of how it works, but that was how it felt to me.)

At times, I'm all for bribery. This kind of situation is precisely where I would use it. You need your child to learn a skill. It's more important to you than it is to her. Your understanding of the long term needs means that you can see how important it is for her to be in bed and resting. You will not be rewarding her for staying still when she's 12. She'll have figured it out then. And if she hasn't you can discuss this with her rationally, or decide that she's old enough to figure it out herself!

For the hair, if you want to try to braid it tightly, braid it while it's wet. Those braids stay in for a couple of days for my dd, and the hair is not tangled when it comes out. I will say that dd has thick hair, but I'm pretty sure this trick works for all kinds of hair. If it's wet, it's easier to get it tight. (Somewhere here I have a thread with lots of good hair tips. I posted for help after I found myself chasing dd down with a hairbrush in one hand and the scissors in another.)

I know that you are really after things that will work when things aren't going well, and I think that if a child is tired, hungry and/or cranky, sometimes, there's only so much you can do. AND most of it has to do with yourself, not her. If you can find a way to remain calm (or at least not descend into screaming banshee status), then you can help her regulate. If not, it's hard. I'll be the first to admit that I do not always remain calm. I have been a screaming banshee more than I'd like to admit. Sometimes, we have bad days. When I have a bad day, I try to apologize and move on. Usually, the good outweigh the bad, and so on the whole, it's OK.

Finally, I just remembered this conversation I had with dd when she was 3 (she was cranky):
She pointed to my leg and said "is this your left leg?"
"Yes," I replied, "it's my left leg."
"No," she burst into tears, "I want it to be your right leg!"

There's a whole thread where people posted similar stories in response to my posting this. The very heartening point is that a lot of three year olds are like this. And they do outgrow it.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
I guess, to me it seems that you have your answer.

In meeting your need to be textbook gd and 'good' (what exactly is good anyway?), you aren't meeting her needs. If it was working, why did you change it?

Because the rewards were getting out of hand. It was alike a rewards arms race, LOL! She was actually saying "no" to the Lara bars and almonds and upping the ante! Chocolate, ice-cream, I was like, ack! This must stop!

Non-food rewards do not seem to have any effect on her, strangely.

Quote:

Finally, I just remembered this conversation I had with dd when she was 3 (she was cranky):
She pointed to my leg and said "is this your left leg?"
"Yes," I replied, "it's my left leg."
"No," she burst into tears, "I want it to be your right leg!"
Yes! Yes! That is my life! LMAO! THANK YOU!

To the others... I will only say that co-sleeping doesn't happen with us. It's not only that it doesn't work. It's that we can "co" or we can "sleep" but not "co-sleep". Unless by "co-sleep" you mean, "cotemperaneous sleeping in different rooms". We did it for 1.5 years and it was tolerable, though not great, until I had a baby. I am not opposed to it. It is just that it doesn't work.

Quote:

If for example you want to talk bedtime and what you are currently doing isn't working (and assuming it isn't complicated by nutrition, lack of exercise or too much sleep) then you can move on to some other strategies.

Ask her what she would like for bedtime - what would help her go to sleep easier. Then tell her what your expectations are - ie you need to be in your room, quiet and resting by 9:00 each night because I need to be able to do ABC.
Then together create a routine that incorporates what she needs with what you need. Find some creative ways to help her settle. You could try white noise machines, classical music, always finishing story time with the same sleepy poems (great for slowing into a rhythmic breathing pattern) audio books, sweet dream spray, a special doll from Dad, prayers, meditation, dream catchers or inventing a sweet dream before bed, songs, having 15 minutes of lie down time with you where you connect about your day, blowing out a candle after stories, special night light, a light in the hall, music she can hear from outside her room so she knows you are there, a routine of checking in on her every 15 minutes until she falls asleep.... the list of potential options to try is endless.
Darn, it better not be lack of exercise... we spend three hours a day at the park, plus outside time at pre-school. I am not sure how much more I could do without putting her on a treadmill. LOL

I think music she can hear so she knows I'm there might help. We do a lot of the other things, briefly, except the poems.

I *so* wanted to read her these poems I love that are all sleepy and mellow and she doesn't like them.







She wants me to tell her stories, which is exhausting. I should write kids books but when I write something I enjoy she doesn't like it. She wants character-driven, plot-driven stuff without metaphors. Of course.









I was checking in every 5 minutes until she fell asleep (she said "three!" so I said fine but actually it's five minutes... she can't tell time yet LOL).

I think this is why this thread is so long... you cannot imagine how many things I have tried, added, subtracted, trying to get this to work. Haha.

I don't want to shoot down every suggestion, that is not my intent. Because there is usually a gem in there. Like the music. Maybe I will put music in their room... go back to the old routine, and she can have the music if she doesn't come out?

Quote:

There's been plenty of "big picture" advice given here. Most of which was met with, "it's only these couple of issues." Now that people are trying to take on each individual issue, it's back to, "no, it's ALL the time! Stop telling me about these individual issues."
No, I did NOT say it was "all the time". I said it's a general discipline issue, and issue of connection, rather than an issue of how I comb hair. Or whatever.

Just because the issue might vary from day to day doesn't mean it's every single thing. It means it's not about things, it's not about specific events.

Do you see what I'm saying? It's that once an argument is picked, that's it. I need to deal with THAT. And no brush, or food, or book, or whatever, no physical object or extra minute, is going to solve that.

Perhaps this was confusing:

Quote:

There will ALWAYS be a time
This does not mean, "all the time there is". It means, poop happens, and this hungry or tired or just plain irritable moment will come up again, if not with hair, then with something else. Not every day, not all the time. But it's not going to be solved by the perfect routine and the perfect house.

FWIW I'd show you my house but eek. I don't think I have unrealistic standards. My house looks a little messier than most houses I've been over to, but I assume they clean up before I come, so I figure we're probably even. We are really not anal-retentive over here. Haha.

Okay, must take kids to park...


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Like the music. Maybe I will put music in their room... go back to the old routine, and she can have the music if she doesn't come out?


Ok let's assume music works. Why would you frame it like this? Why not play music because it helps her rather than deciding ahead of time that you can use it as leverage to try to win your next power struggle? That's punitive discipline and witholding of something that could help you both get what you need in a peaceful way.
This kind of attitude is where you are going off the rails because you are setting up your relationship as a battle before you even start and then you are wondering why she responds in kind.
You know, as I am writing this it occurred to me that perhaps your response that "I've tried everything and nothing works" is because you are framing everything as a tool to control your child rather than as a way to meet her needs. You can not control a child. It doesn't work and it sets you up for a power struggle every single time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Do you see what I'm saying? It's that once an argument is picked, that's it. I need to deal with THAT. And no brush, or food, or book, or whatever, no physical object or extra minute, is going to solve that.

This does not mean, "all the time there is". It means, poop happens, and this hungry or tired or just plain irritable moment will come up again, if not with hair, then with something else. Not every day, not all the time. But it's not going to be solved by the perfect routine and the perfect house.

Once an argument gets picked?
Choose not to argue. Choose a different approach. Choose to reframe it in your mind not as an argument but as her telling you what she needs. Choose to meet her needs first.

There is no such thing as a perfect routine or a perfect house. But the routine can help you and your child move through transitions smoothly which is where a lot of kids get stuck. Streamlining your house and ensuring you have reasonable expectations means that you can start to create an environment with fewer potential landmines to your day. Finding ways to meet her needs FIRST and easily - the right brush for her hair, a peaceful bedtime routine, makes her life easier which makes your life easier.

I'm not a huge fan of Naomi Aldort but you might find some good things in her work.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Because the rewards were getting out of hand. It was alike a rewards arms race, LOL! She was actually saying "no" to the Lara bars and almonds and upping the ante! Chocolate, ice-cream, I was like, ack! This must stop!
I am so confused. You said that the old routine worked. But now you are saying the old routine resulted in your child wanting more rewards so you stopped all rewards instead. Do you mean that it did get her a full night of sleep, but you disliked negotiations over rewards?


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Ok let's assume music works. Why would you frame it like this? Why not play music because it helps her rather than deciding ahead of time that you can use it as leverage to try to win your next power struggle? That's punitive discipline and witholding of something that could help you both get what you need in a peaceful way.

This kind of attitude is where you are going off the rails because you are setting up your relationship as a battle before you even start and then you are wondering why she responds in kind.

You know, as I am writing this it occurred to me that perhaps your response that "I've tried everything and nothing works" is because you are framing everything as a tool to control your child rather than as a way to meet her needs. You can not control a child. It doesn't work and it sets you up for a power struggle every single time.


I think Karen hit the nail in the head here. GD is not a quick fix, but a mindset, and until you (OP) understand that currently you are not on the same wavelength with GD, there won't be any meaningful direction change towards GD...Cognitively you are there--you are clearly a caring parent who really wants to be gentle with her child. But on a deeper level, emotionally, you are coming from a very different view of children, parenting, and GD.

You mentioned that you are not comfortable with babies / toddlers, and you are happier with older children. Fine. Imagine what kind of a relationship you want to have with your pre-teen. Are you on the road to that relationship?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
You know, as I am writing this it occurred to me that perhaps your response that "I've tried everything and nothing works" is because you are framing everything as a tool to control your child rather than as a way to meet her needs. You can not control a child. It doesn't work and it sets you up for a power struggle every single time.

I think this is huge. Especially with little kids, it's a huge front-load investment: Hours and hours of laying with them, rocking them, nursing, slinging, talking, listening, figuring out how NOT to have power struggles, offering tools instead of punishments, showing empathy when you want to say, "Sigh. Get. over. it. It's a BLUE cup, not the end of the world!", working on how to get hair brushed without tears, all of what is being discussed in this thread and so much more.

You are not going to see an instant cessation of these behaviors. And a path to hell (or living in filth, a visit from CPS, malnutrition, rotten teeth, or a child who runs riot over you) is not the automatic result of NOT making these behaviors stop right this instant.

It seems like the relationship has been damaged. The child sounds angry. The mom sounds angry. It's going to take TIME to get the relationship back on track. And I can about guarantee that one postive, meeting-the-kid's-needs interaction at a time is going to eventually result in a better relationship and THEN a huge decrease of these behaviors.

And if she's still argumentative? Then that is her personality. Accept her. Find the joy in that. Raising Your Spirited Child has great advice on that front. Viewing her through a lens of "problem-behavior" b/c she's got the genetic traits of her father is not going to end well.

And even if you can't co-sleep, why can't you lay with her until she falls asleep?







Let go of counting the minutes, being ready to pop up as soon as she's out, focusing on all the things that you could be doing instead, and just lay with her? Rub her back, sing her songs, put on music. She's three. She's just a baby.


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## friskykitty (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow. I've been following this thread off and on. It is just so sad. To the OP I hope you find peace and some help for your situation. It has got to be incredibly difficult.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I am so confused. You said that the old routine worked. But now you are saying the old routine resulted in your child wanting more rewards so you stopped all rewards instead. Do you mean that it did get her a full night of sleep, but you disliked negotiations over rewards?

Close- what I disliked was that she was demanding rewards I wasn't prepared to give on a regular basis, and not interested in rewards I was, such as helping with breakfast, extra time at the park, healthy snacks that were nonetheless a treat.

I'd be willing to switch from one healthy thing to another, but not to ice-cream. Not every day!

So that was a bad place for us to be.

Quote:

Ok let's assume music works. Why would you frame it like this? Why not play music because it helps her rather than deciding ahead of time that you can use it as leverage to try to win your next power struggle? That's punitive discipline and witholding of something that could help you both get what you need in a peaceful way.
That is a good point, and I am trying to get away from any kind of bribe or punishment but we are going on nearly a week and a half of not sleeping enough so I just want her to stay in that bed.

Yes, I do want to control her, because I do believe in this instance, I know what's right for her. I know she needs sleep. I understand she may have other needs as well, but she still needs to sleeeeeep.

Tonight, after three hours of swimming at the lake, four rounds of the track, a 1.5 mile walk to and from a friend's for dinner, AND park for three hours, plus no nap, she fell right asleep.

Sadly, I'm not sure I can keep that up on a daily basis, LOL.

Quote:

And even if you can't co-sleep, why can't you lay with her until she falls asleep? Let go of counting the minutes,
I used to do this, but it actually took her longer to fall asleep. Three hours on average. With my bribe-scheme, until it fell apart due to demands for chocolate, ice-cream, etc., she fell asleep in a half an hour.

Plus, when that happens, if she wakes at night she comes to my bed where I'm sleeping (often with the baby, who is nursing).

And then I don't sleep, period. It's co-sleeping. I would tell you my personal nightmare from co-sleeping (or not) but it's really not relevant.

Quote:

And a path to hell (or living in filth, a visit from CPS, malnutrition, rotten teeth, or a child who runs riot over you) is not the automatic result of NOT making these behaviors stop right this instant.
I'm not sure what's wrong with my house or us, but frankly, if I don't keep up with the chores, we really do get to filth amazingly quickly. Perhaps I have good eyesight? I mean, urine crust on the floor, food stuck to the wall, that to me is unacceptable.

Also, "a child who runs riot over you" is also something that happens pretty amazingly quickly. I have zero control over my space, or my situation, if I do not completely manage the situation. It is HARD to explain and I'm sure some of you are thinking, "Well, that's because you're such a crappy mom in the first place. If you would just do what all the GD books say..." but I can tell you, we have TRIED and it doesn't work. By "work" I mean our bodies are respected, we are able to eat, rest, and exercise together. The riot still happens. I got to rewards and punishments for a reason.

I can see your point, for sure. That just letting x, y, or z go is not going to result in lifelong damage right away.

However, we do get to a point where things are unacceptable pretty quick, and I'm not sure why... maybe because there are two of them?

Quote:

Finding ways to meet her needs FIRST and easily - the right brush for her hair, a peaceful bedtime routine, makes her life easier which makes your life easier.
Ah, but here's the catch. You see, since my entire life revolves around the kids, and I actually did buy her a special brush, and let her design the bedtime routine, and I let her help meal-plan (but she sometimes still refuses to eat it, or just doesn't want to), etc. etc. I can assure you that there is a disturbing paradox here.

Her need is not to have one thing or another, in particular.

It's to create... drama? Conflict? Friction is probably the best word. Almost like, "Gee, I have my favorite breakfast, a dress I picked out, and I'm playing a game with my mom. This is boring. Let's spice it up!"

And then she asks me to say, "Hey, how come you're hitting me?" (I kid you not, she does that. I've been really, really trying to meet her needs and play only games and do absolutely NO arguing with her, so this behavior has increased a lot... but I do it.)

And I say, "Well... you're not hit-"

"No, say, 'How come you're hitting me?'" I smile and sigh.

"How come you're hitting me?"

"I'M NOT HITTING YOU!"

You see, her need is to exercise her playful, argumentative nature.

(Incidentally, thanks for the tip on accepting her nature. I have accepted her nature. Doesn't mean I want to be hit, or argued with incessantly, thanks. I can accept my child without accepting that she will engage in every behavior that comes to her mind without considering how that affects others.)

So it doesn't matter. About the brush, about her nightlight that SHE picked out and that SHE put on the wall with daddy, about the duvet she picked out, about the story she picked (down to the cast of characters).

When I've tried to make it a game, when I've tried to explain why she needs to do it...

if she wants to argue, that's her need.

But I have a right NOT to be verbally or physically abused by someone.

It's that her need conflicts with her sister's need for attention, and my need to occasionally NOT be arguing with her.

KWIM? I am not sure if this is getting through and I'm not sure if I can explain it again...

I am not saying, "Let me control you because I need to have this my way."

I am saying, "We have hygiene, health and safety standards. I have human rights as a person. Now, how can I help my you through this process with minimum disruption for all of us?"

Quote:

Finding ways to meet her needs FIRST
1. She has a baby sister. Sorry, they tie. She WILL NOT always be first. Period, end of story.

2. Meeting her needs first would be easy. I'm trying to teach her how to learn to be patient, how to wait, trying to build pathways in her brain that do not automatically demand that her every need be met immediately. That is the hard part.

3. I guess I can just stop here, because we're a gentle family but I'm a person, too. I can't meet her needs if that means I get hit. Period. I cannot accept hitting. Her needs go down the toilet if they are physical violence against me.

I'm not sure why you think I clean the house, wash dishes, make food. This is OUR home. I do that for the children. They may not appreciate the clean house, but they do benefit from a minimal semblance of order, from hygienic conditions, and good nutrition.

That's not like, my hobby. It NEEDS to be done for all of us.

So while I appreciate the sentiment--put her first--I am not sure that is where the issue is in terms of housework, food, etc. Do you realize that I haven't read my infant a story in my lap in weeks? That unlike my first child, the baby has never had time to do a puzzle with mom? Not ONCE?

I could go on and on, but frankly, I am tearing up as I realize how much of her needs I've sacrificed for my first daughter, hoping (apparently in vain) that if I could just get it together, she would stop talking and give me a moment of peace.

but there is no end to her need for my attention in that respect. I can't do work while she's here, but the baby does play alone. I do wish I could play more with the baby, though, especially when I read about child development.

No, I guess what I'm realizing is that I can't be a good parent to both of them at the same time (NO they don't play well inside, the three-year-old takes toys from baby's hand and does it "right", won't let her go down the slide herself, etc.) and probably that is my whole problem.

I have two kids, their needs conflict, we have a family, our needs conflict, she can't come first. Sometimes, dinner for four DOES COME FIRST. And yes, I mean, it can't wait, not even fifteen more minutes because my husband has to go and he can't march 15 miles without eating and we can't afford fast food daily, the baby is screaming and exhausted, and I'm about to faint.

Period. I guess this thread is over because if that's what's required... fail! Oh well, at least I know why. Glad we have boiled it down to this point. It is all clear to me now.

I do feel justified using other methods now. If what is required that she comes first... at least I am exonerated from that. I know I can't do it, so I might as well do whatever works for us. I really thought there was a better way, but apparently not for us.

GD=one kid or less, or spaced 5+ years apart at the very least. They should point that out in the books!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
GD=one kid or less, or spaced 5+ years apart at the very least. They should point that out in the books!

This is far from true. You have several mothers here who have multiple kids w/ closer spacing than this giving you all manner of good (and free, I might add) advice.

These methods and approaches are working beautifully in many of our homes.

At this point I would suggest professional help might be a resource you want to consider. Jan Hunt does phone consults, and I know many others do also. It seems that mother-to-mother advice is not cutting it for you, for whatever reason.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

EdnaMarie, said gently, you can't have it both ways. You can't say:

a) My child is totally typical, the circumstances of our life are totally typical

AND

b) Nothing that works for typical children living in typical circumstances works for us.

GD and AP do not prescribe absolute methods beyond being gentle and attached. That leaves a broad array of approaches that can be crafted to meet the needs of the individuals in the dyad or family system.

Your DD sounds a lot like my DD. It's been a long road parenting her, and as we enter the tween years (which are remarkably like three was), I've had to do a lot of reading, thinking and revising of strategies to meet my DD's changing needs. I've had to be flexible where I didn't think I could be, and I've had to examine my assumptions. One of the biggest issues between us is that we're both very strong, opinionated and passionate. I, however, have a fully developed prefrontal cortex and the bank card







. I think you and your DD are very, very much alike.

I would strongly recommend Kids, Parents and Power Struggles, written by the author of The Spirited Child. I much prefer it to TSC. Also, her sleep book (link below). I strongly recommend melatonin as sleep begets improved perspective and behaviour. I also think getting an outside perspective IRL would be invaluable to you.

http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Parents-P...1216581&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Sleepless-Amer...1216705&sr=1-1


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
This is far from true. You have several mothers here who have multiple kids w/ closer spacing than this giving you all manner of good (and free, I might add) advice.

These methods and approaches are working beautifully in many of our homes.

At this point I would suggest professional help might be a resource you want to consider. Jan Hunt does phone consults, and I know many others do also. It seems that mother-to-mother advice is not cutting it for you, for whatever reason.









I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the many posters in this thread who have shared amazing insight and experience-proven ideas. I have very much enjoyed reading your input and learned a lot.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
This is far from true. You have several mothers here who have multiple kids w/ closer spacing than this giving you all manner of good (and free, I might add) advice.

These methods and approaches are working beautifully in many of our homes.

At this point I would suggest professional help might be a resource you want to consider. Jan Hunt does phone consults, and I know many others do also. It seems that mother-to-mother advice is not cutting it for you, for whatever reason.









I have noticed, though, that parents of multiple kids are much more likely to say they use the ignore the behavior / use a reward / go ahead and physically force them to do it.

Which is something I had not heard from GD books.

Quote:

a) My child is totally typical, the circumstances of our life are totally typical

AND

b) Nothing that works for typical children living in typical circumstances works for us.
I have not posted either of those things. Perhaps you are reading into what I'm writing?

I said, we have a relatively normal, manageable, happy life, and my child is fairly typical compared to children I know, and that SOME of these things are working, thank you so much.

There are people saying I haven't accepted any advice on this thread, but that is just not true. I didn't accept _their_ advice. I have accepted a lot of other advice that works for us.

There has also been advice that I think would work, but that I didn't think was GD, per se (ignoring a behavior, using time-outs, using rewards). I only said, yes, but is that truly gentle? I'm not sure.

That is not rejecting a piece of advice out of hand.

I feel that my frustration, which I am venting in ONE place, and not on my kid, mind you! is being taken as my entire personality, and I do resent that, which is making it worse.

I have asked my child's teachers how she is doing and what she's like. I have asked, for example, whether they thought she needed any special accommodations at her next pre-school because this session is ending. I have seen three counselors (each only a couple of sessions, they rotate counselors here) and vented a LOT to them and none of them have suggested that I need further counseling.

Are we "normal" as in, like your family, whoever you are reading this? Suburb, middle-class, one kid? Rural, lower-middle income, family nearby? Single-parent, two kids, work from home?

No, we're a military family, we live overseas, we are all very energetic and passionate people.

BUT! We are all functioning and able to deal.

The fact that you are reading this and I don't think your advice will work for us is not a sign that I need professional help because we are just THAT abnormal.







It's just a sign that we're different and yes, I've tried a lot of stuff already.

Melatonin is certainly an option as a last resort. I'd much rather use other rewards than hormones, especially those illegal in Germany, though!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I have noticed, though, that parents of multiple kids are much more likely to say they use the ignore the behavior / use a reward / go ahead and physically force them to do it.

Which is something I had not heard from GD books.
What book are you talking about EdnaMarie? Ignoring, rewarding, and physically redirecting a child are all strategies on the GD continuum, advocated in a number of books recommended here. Anthony Wolf's book "The Secret of Parenting" is one that comes to mind.

I have used all three approached with my child and I am a GD parent.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

If she's creating drama out of boredom (which my 3yo does too)-- can her preschool hours be extended? Would she go for that, if your funds will cover it? Sometimes I've noticed that what DS really wants is variety and excitement of social contact, and preschool gives him that; his behavior is MUCH better when he is in school. Right now he's on vacation and acting exactly like your DD, and all I can say is thank heavens DH is working from home for a few weeks and able to give me occasional 15-minute breaks. If I didn't have that I would feel just like you describe.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

I've moved some of your quotes around to try to address points together.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
GD=one kid or less, or spaced 5+ years apart at the very least. They should point that out in the books!

Well I had 4 kids in 5 years with twins in the middle and I think that it is not only possible but essential for our family to use GD methods. And I can say that they have worked beautifully in terms of helping my kids to be gentle, compassionate, disciplined, respectful, creative kids.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Yes, I do want to control her, because I do believe in this instance, I know what's right for her. I know she needs sleep. I understand she may have other needs as well, but she still needs to sleeeeeep.

It isn't an either or proposition. You can help her get to sleep without controlling her if you choose to. You are choosing not to either because you don't know of other options, you are unwilling to try or because you think controlling her will be the only way she'll go to sleep. She's showing you that it isn't working. You need to invest the time as the PP said and you need to help her - that is your job as her mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Also, "a child who runs riot over you" is also something that happens pretty amazingly quickly. I have zero control over my space, or my situation, if I do not completely manage the situation.

snip....

However, we do get to a point where things are unacceptable pretty quick, and I'm not sure why... maybe because there are two of them?.

Well I still think it is a matter of priorities. Since you approach things as black and white - what's more important to you?
A) Control over your space and the illusion you have control every situation and a hellish relationship with your child
or
B) learning how to give up control in some areas in order to have a healthy family relationship?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Ah, but here's the catch. You see, since my entire life revolves around the kids, and I actually did buy her a special brush, and let her design the bedtime routine, and I let her help meal-plan (but she sometimes still refuses to eat it, or just doesn't want to), etc. etc. I can assure you that there is a disturbing paradox here.

Her need is not to have one thing or another, in particular.

It's to create... drama? Conflict? Friction is probably the best word. Almost like, "Gee, I have my favorite breakfast, a dress I picked out, and I'm playing a game with my mom. This is boring. Let's spice it up!".
... snip...
(Incidentally, thanks for the tip on accepting her nature. I have accepted her nature. Doesn't mean I want to be hit, or argued with incessantly, thanks. I can accept my child without accepting that she will engage in every behavior that comes to her mind without considering how that affects others.)

She's three. She's behaving like a normal three year old. She's trying to find her boundaries by testing her limits. She's trying to engage you. Absent any psychopathic issues, she does not have the cognitive ability you are assigning to her to be devious or controlling or abusive. She has limited cognitive ability for impuse control and limited ability to understand the long term consequences of her actions. The way to help her is to nuture those times when she does have an understanding of others and to gently open her up to understanding and having compassion to others by modelling it with her. Demanding it happens on your time table will not happen. You cannot force a flower to grow.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
You see, her need is to exercise her argumentative nature.

LOL as is her mother's clearly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
So it doesn't matter. About the brush, about her nightlight that SHE picked out and that SHE put on the wall with daddy, about the duvet she picked out, about the story she picked (down to the cast of characters).

What matters is that over the long term she has the chance to learn, to make choices, to feel some control. Parenting is a marathon, not a sprint.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
But I have a right NOT to be verbally or physically abused by someone..

snip...

Her needs go down the toilet if they are physical violence against me.

How can you say this about your three year old and then ask not be told that you, as a family, need some kind of professional support. These are not markers of a normal healthy parent child relationship.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I am not saying, "Let me control you because I need to have this my way."

Really? You might want to examine this more closely with respect to how much control you try to exert in all areas of your life.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I am saying, "We have hygiene, health and safety standards. I have human rights as a person. Now, how can I help my you through this process with minimum disruption for all of us?"

We all have those standards. GD is not about compromising them - it is about helping the child function within them. But GD it isn't a "bare mimimun" proposition. It takes time and energy to raise a GD child. They don't just fit conveniently into the corners of your life. They become your life.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
1. She has a baby sister. Sorry, they tie. She WILL NOT always be first. Period, end of story.

You misunderstand.
You need to put her dealing with her needs first over dealing with the behaviour. Disciplining a hungry, lonely or tired child won't work. Discipline is about teaching and no one does their best learning when their physical and or emotional needs are not being met. It doesn't mean you can't address the situation. You just can't do it in isolation from or instead of meeting her needs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
2. Meeting her needs first would be easy. I'm trying to teach her how to learn to be patient, how to wait, trying to build pathways in her brain that do not automatically demand that her every need be met immediately. That is the hard part.

Yes it is hard. It's a long process. It comes from modelling that she can't control every situation. You need to step back and see how your approach to parenting is playing into the very situations you find so frustrating.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I can't meet her needs if that means I get hit. Period. I cannot accept hitting. Her needs go down the toilet if they are physical violence against me.

Again it is your job to teach her not to hit, to respect you and those around her. Removing yourself from meeting her needs does not do that. In fact it works against you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
So while I appreciate the sentiment--put her first--I am not sure that is where the issue is in terms of housework, food, etc. Do you realize that I haven't read my infant a story in my lap in weeks? That unlike my first child, the baby has never had time to do a puzzle with mom? Not ONCE?

This is where you put strategies in place in your home so you can have that time. Nap time, easier meals, time during your daughter's preschool.... you have many choices if you choose to see them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
No, I guess what I'm realizing is that I can't be a good parent to both of them at the same time.

You don't have a choice and you don't get off the hook that easy. It is your responsiblity as a mother to TRY.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
NO they don't play well inside, the three-year-old takes toys from baby's hand and does it "right", won't let her go down the slide herself, etc..

She's modelling the behavior she sees in you. She is controlling the situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I have two kids, their needs conflict, we have a family, our needs conflict, she can't come first. Sometimes, dinner for four DOES COME FIRST. And yes, I mean, it can't wait, not even fifteen more minutes because my husband has to go and he can't march 15 miles without eating and we can't afford fast food daily, the baby is screaming and exhausted, and I'm about to faint.

Everyone has these situations in their lives. Why you think you are the only one is baffling. That's why we have given you tonnes of real world suggestions - so that if things are challenging you have back up options and or a better plan in place. Use the crockpot, have planned left overs in the fridge for your husband to grab, have one parent do dinner duty and one parent do kid duty, put her in charge of making the salad and meet her needs for engagement while you do other things, have a pre dinner snack of veggies and dip and breadsticks, allow her 30 minute of TV time while you prep dinner.

If you are forever stuck in the "one right way" approach you are never going to get out of this pattern.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Period. I guess this thread is over because if that's what's required... fail! Oh well, at least I know why. Glad we have boiled it down to this point. It is all clear to me now.

snip...

I do feel justified using other methods now. If what is required that she comes first... at least I am exonerated from that. I know I can't do it, so I might as well do whatever works for us. I really thought there was a better way, but apparently not for us.

You know after reflecting on all of this I agree with you. You're right. GD methods probably aren't ever going to work for you. So cut yourself some slack, let go of your idealized version of what you think GD is and do what feels instinctively right for you. I think in the end all you were looking for was permission to do that anyway.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

To me, the most literal definition of GD is "no spanking, no shaming." Some people add other things. But if you are happier and more comfortable using "logical consequences" and/ or rewards, do it! Those still count as gentle even if some GD proponents are very against them. No one will take away your AP license for doing a sticker chart, I promise.


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## junipermoon (Nov 19, 2008)

oh, honey. you sound like you are in so much pain. i'm so sorry things are this way for you right now. your daughter sounds like she is in pain as well. and you do sound incredibly angry with this child. i think she absolutely is reacting to that. you can argue this away if you want, but please consider, how could she *not* react off of you? you are her mother. kids (and people) respond to the subtle clues of how you really feel so much more than the technique.

please be gentle with her and you. if you are this critical of her, I can only guess how critical you are of yourself. but life does not have to be this way. parenting does not have to be this way.

my advice to you specifically would be this: learn accept paradoxes and shades of grey, approach things that you don't like or agree with that emerge from yourself, other posters, and your daughter with just a bit more empathy and just a bit less reactivity. work on being just a bit more gentle with yourself and your daughter, get through the tough parts of the day in whatever way you deem best and supplement all of those techniques with hugging her and cuddling her *with genuine intentions* AT LEAST 10 times a day. If you already do that, then do it more. if that feels too threatening, try touching her cheek gently, or laying your hand on her head--but many, many times during each day. focus on the smallness of her body and its absolute innocence. focus on letting go of your tensions and connecting to her innate goodness and to your own innate goodness. heart connections have to come before (and stay before) the neural pathways to self control that you write about can develop in healthy ways, mama. believe me I am a totally imperfect parent, who also feels totally lost in the discipline department, but I do know this one small piece of advice. so I wanted to offer it to you.

one theoretical side point I also wanted to make is there is a difference between a technique not working, and you not operationalizing the technique properly or not giving it a long enough time to start working.

hugs and best wishes.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
To me, the most literal definition of GD is "no spanking, no shaming." Some people add other things. But if you are happier and more comfortable using "logical consequences" and/ or rewards, do it! Those still count as gentle even if some GD proponents are very against them. No one will take away your AP license for doing a sticker chart, I promise.

I completely agree. And, this is what I aim for in parenting my three kids- one of whom is much like the OPs daughter in terms of desire to 'stir things up', my 2 year old with special needs, and my 10 month old who is the most intense/high needs of the bunch. (BTW, as I type this, his dad just brought him to me because he was driving him insane- now he is sitting in my arms, where he will stay while I make dinner with the two year old underfoot- probably trying to remove all the dished from the cupboards and my eight year old arguing that she doesn't LIKE what is for dinner.

Here's the thing, I had to let go of the illusion of complete control.

The baby can sit in my arm and if I am lucky, I will get him in the ring sling instead to free up the hand. Maybe.

The toddler will make a mess of the pots and pans, and they will sit there until I get to them. They aren't pretty, but they won't hurt anyone.

My daughter will complain about what;'s offered for dinner, and she will drama-fy it all. I will request that she take a bite, and bribe her (oh yes, bribing her is a wonderful approach!) with some alternatives that she does like if she can manage to eat a little of the family meal- shell probably opt for some fresh fruit, leftover chicken, and maybe cucumber slices.

If it all goes off without a major hitch, the older two will go to bed and stay there, the baby will still insist on being held until bedtime- not cosleeping with him isn't an option as it is a very real need for him.

If the baths are missed because dinner is late tonight (oh, it is, and really, I'm ok with that) such is life. If I have to sink to bribing the oldest with a small dessert, I may well do that, because neither of us is up for the battle over food. If my two year old doesn't brush his teeth tonight, that's ok too- he had a really tough day yesterday with a haircut and is still really wary of someone touching his mouth- maybe I can get him to let me brush them, but if I can't, so be it, we will tomorrow.

It isn't perfect- and you can find a million things to criticize, but overall, my kids are healthy, I account for who they are as individual people with needs that sometimes conflict with my own, we don't hit/scream/yell to make things happen, and there is not an underlying power play going on anywhere. To me, that is absolutely what counts.

And now, I'm going to go look at my daughter's chore chart with her, and we will choose something special to do tomorrow because she did all of her chores this week- maybe a trip to the river to go hiking, or maybe- the dreaded ice cream.... yum!









Giving up my pretense of being the perfect parent has allowed me to become the parent my kids need.


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## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

I've been following this thread since the beginning, and have had a few thoughts building up in my head about the situation...
1. I believe toward the beginning of the thread you said that you had never really talked to your daughter's preschool teachers beyond the, "oh how was her day?" sort of thing at pick up. In your most recent post you do say that you've spoken to them, but still, I want to outline clearly the form of communication you need to have with them, just in case you haven't already done so. Schedule a parent-teacher conference. Sit down with them and explain the behaviors you are seeing at home. Ask if they are seeing the same behaviors. Ask how she interacts with peers and adults at school. Ask for specific examples. Give them specific examples of how she acts at home, and ask if they see the same behaviors in her. If they say yes, she acts that way here, ask them how they handle it. Get ideas from them! If they say yes, she acts that way here, and nothing helps the behaviors, then sorry, but it's time to look into the possibility of her having special needs. And if they say no, we don't see those behaviors, then you have to realize that something in the home environment is causing them.
2. Cognitive behavioral therapy through workbooks. Doesn't work. I saw a clinical psychologist for years for CBT. It works wonders in that environment. A workbook could be useful for the other 6 days of the week that you don't see your therapist, but please do not say that you are working on your issues by using a workbook. That's like putting a band-aid over an amputated limb.
3. An analogy of sorts, to address your daughter's "need" to argue. My 22 month old dd is obsessed with hitting. Several times a day, she grabs a toy and hits it repeatedly (mind you, this was first being done to people and pets, so she has gotten better) saying, "hit giraffe? hit giraffe? hit giraffe?" Until I say, "no, we don't hit!" Then she stops, thinks, and says, "no. giraffe cry. mama cry. giraffe sad. here mama..." and hands me the giraffe to comfort. I never really gave the behavior much thought, but something in your post made the lightbulb go off above my head- she's trying to figure out why we don't hit, why it's not ok to hit others or for others to hit you. she's trying to internalize the reason for curbing that behavior. She's trying to make sense of her world. In a similar way, I think your daughter is trying to make sense of her world. You argue, probably because of your issues with control. Your husband argues. You and he argue. I think maybe your daughter is trying it out, trying to understand why arguing is so enjoyable and bonding. Because it must be, right, since everyone in her world keeps doing it?
4. I was a second child. My older brother was very high needs. I was very low needs. I didn't get half the attention that he got. That's OK!!! I know as a parent it's incredibly difficult to be okay with that concept, but your 2nd DD will be okay with it. First children learn by doing puzzles with their parents and reading books with their parents. Second (and 3rd, 4th, etc) children learn by watching the first child do puzzles and read books. It's not better or worse, just different. But as a PP recommended, I would definitely try to make a little bit of special time for you and #2 while #1 is at preschool.
5. Have you talked about some of these problems in the Military Moms Tribe? You say that we civilians can't understand some of the issues- that seems fair. So talk to those who can!
Best wishes!!


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
There's a whole thread where people posted similar stories in response to my posting this. The very heartening point is that a lot of three year olds are like this. And they do outgrow it.

Omg that thread had me crying I was laughing so hard.
I miss 3 year olds.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *petey44* 
I've been following this thread since the beginning, and have had a few thoughts building up in my head about the situation...
1. I believe toward the beginning of the thread you said that you had never really talked to your daughter's preschool teachers beyond the, "oh how was her day?" sort of thing at pick up. In your most recent post you do say that you've spoken to them, but still, I want to outline clearly the form of communication you need to have with them, just in case you haven't already done so.

It was a pre-school camp and I asked to speak to them at the end.

Of COURSE they see the same behaviors I see at home. They see them in every child there! They are all three and four. I see the other kids doing the same things myself!

Quote:

Get ideas from them!
Their hands are tied. They are supposed to re-direct like mad until the parent comes and if it's something they can't re-direct away, the child leaves the pre-school. I put my daughter in for her friends because it was a six-week pr. But their discipline methodology is not great... I know many kids that were taken out of the program because their parents thought that the active kids in the regular program were having negative behaviors reinforced.

Quote:

2. Cognitive behavioral therapy through workbooks. Doesn't work. I saw a clinical psychologist for years for CBT. It works wonders in that environment. A workbook could be useful for the other 6 days of the week that you don't see your therapist, but please do not say that you are working on your issues by using a workbook. That's like putting a band-aid over an amputated limb
.

Yeah, but my issue is not an amputated limb. A therapist is for someone who meets a clinical diagnosis, and amazingly enough, even though I was VERY MOODY when PMS and I am irritated at what I feel to be some unthoughtful replies on this thread (people saying again and again, verbal correction works for all children, your child is special needs if she doesn't even though she's only three), I'm not actually diagnosed with anything, and considering how I'm functioning in real life, I'm not sure why I would be?

Because my child is in a hitting phase, we all need therapy?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Quote:

My 22 month old dd is obsessed with hitting. Several times a day, she grabs a toy and hits it repeatedly (mind you, this was first being done to people and pets, so she has gotten better) saying, "hit giraffe? hit giraffe? hit giraffe?" Until I say, "no, we don't hit!" Then she stops, thinks, and says, "no. giraffe cry. mama cry. giraffe sad. here mama..." and hands me the giraffe to comfort. I never really gave the behavior much thought, but something in your post made the lightbulb go off above my head- she's trying to figure out why we don't hit, why it's not ok to hit others or for others to hit you. she's trying to internalize the reason for curbing that behavior. She's trying to make sense of her world. In a similar way, I think your daughter is trying to make sense of her world.
Yes, absolutely. Three-year-olds make sense of the world through testing limits and arguing and being playful.

However, when I engage in too much arguing (taking the bait, so to speak) it starts to get out of hand, and when I don't engage, she takes it up a level.

Though, as I have mentioned six kabillion times here... the "me-challenge-her" thing has really taken the edge off that, and we are not arguing more than once or twice a week.

Quote:

You argue, probably because of your issues with control.
I'm sorry. I do not have pathological issues with control. WTH. I control normal things. I let my kids have lots of free play time at the park, we do fun stuff... I'm not seeing it.

I want her to get 12 hours sleep. I do NOT think that is obsessive! That is being a parent!

Quote:

4. I was a second child. My older brother was very high needs. I was very low needs. I didn't get half the attention that he got. That's OK!!!
How do you know she's "low needs"? How do you know she's not lonely, but introverted? She's a baby.

Quote:

5. Have you talked about some of these problems in the Military Moms Tribe? You say that we civilians can't understand some of the issues- that seems fair. So talk to those who can!
Best wishes!!
I am not sure if ANYONE there would have alternatives to time-out, LOL!!! Not that we aren't all nice... I will ask, but you see, I was looking for alternatives to what I'd been doing for sleep (bribes) and hitting (isolation) and arguing (that was the original problem and it has been solved... amazing how one suggestion that actually fits our family can solve our problems without therapy!).

WTH is up with people suggesting therapy? I had a rough two weeks with sleep after eliminating bribes. I want to be calm 100% of the time (aim high!).

I'm not mentally ill and I don't know where you're getting that... yes, this is a LONG THREAD but I am still getting great ideas from some posters...

Oh, and I tried the whole "kerfuffle"/funny-word thing and except for one incident where apparently the big deal was over done, though I didn't raise my voice ("I didn't say kerfuffle mom! I didn't!" Near tears...







), it worked like a charm, at least to stop the behavior short-term.

Long-term, we shall see... but at least we can keep her from making farting noises in public, LOL!


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
WTH is up with people suggesting therapy?

Umm because you repeatedly refer to your THREE year old as a violent abusive conniving bully? Because you repeatedly say nothing works - not punishments, bribes, guidance, redirection. Because your OP is about giving up engaging with your daughter? Because the rest of your life sounds very stressful and you sound like you are at the end of your rope?

Or maybe (as evidenced by the 15 page thread *full* of suggestions) it is because we are concerned for you and for your children, online support doesn't seem to be working and you sound in need of IRL support and some new strategies.

Yeah maybe that's why.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Do you realize that I haven't read my infant a story in my lap in weeks? That unlike my first child, the baby has never had time to do a puzzle with mom? Not ONCE?

I could go on and on, but frankly, I am tearing up as I realize how much of her needs I've sacrificed for my first daughter, hoping (apparently in vain) that if I could just get it together, she would stop talking and give me a moment of peace.

Your older child is gone 3 hours a day.

You choose to clean.

And you blame HER for you not spending time with the baby??

She's not going to stop talking. THAT is her personality. She's not trying to annoy you or take away your peace. That is who she is.

I think you would benefit from a big perspective shift. I do not think you are "mentally ill." Mental illness is hardly a prerequisite for counselling or a phone consultation with a parenting coach.


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