# GDing the Explosive Child



## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Anybody else with this type of personality child. The descriptive title of the book said it all to me, "The easily frustrated and chronically inflexible child." I immediate said, "I NEED this book" I think I need some buddies too. http://www.explosivechild.com/

I just ordered the book. I think we already do a lot of stuff in the book but I haven't gotten to read it yet. I would love to connect with other mama's trying to gently parent these kiddos. Actually, I think GD is the only way to parent these kids or you'd be beating the crap of them.

This AM DS woke and was about to have a meltdown before I had to leave for work and he said, "Just lay down and go to sleep with me. Mama set your timer for 5 min." I set my timer for 5 min. It went off and he said, "Ok mama you can go."

I think DS is actually pretty mild but still very challenging and difficult at times.


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## j924 (May 17, 2005)

Excellent book. My explosive child just turned 9. I wish I had read it when she was much younger, but it has been amazing to watch the transformation. Plan B really does work. Good luck.


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## jrose_lee (Oct 2, 2005)

OH my!!! Me! Me! I am going crazy. I think I need this book. Badly. Especially after tonight :frown
We are very GD, but ds is losing it. All.the.time. And becoming violent and explosive and even more frustrated. And extremely inflexible. Not flexible at all. Freaks out over the smallest things. Ah!

Granted....we just moved across the country and a lot of new stuff going on. But...well, this book is just him. Sigh.


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## jrose_lee (Oct 2, 2005)

hmmmm...maybe it's a little early for this. Are ALL two year olds this way? I don't know..he's my first, but he sure doesn't seem to act like any other kids sometimes and he's a handfull, highspirited, high needs for sure.


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## ma_vie_en_rose (Jun 7, 2008)

Great book! My DSD has early onset bipolar disorder. I absolutely agree that GD is the only way to deal with this type of child. I believe anything else will make it worse.


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## honeysesame (Dec 10, 2005)

hmmm.... interesting. ds (6) would definitely be on the mild end of the spectrum yet i do recognize some of these behaviors in him for sure.... would any of you mamas be willing to share a few ideas that have worked for you? i read the excerpt from the book on the site and am interested to hear more about his approach. thanks....


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## j924 (May 17, 2005)

The thing that resounded the loudest for me was that kids do well IF they can. It wasn't my parenting for better or worse that made my kid like this and when she could do better she would. I don't want to paraphrase him too much but he relies heavily on Plan B. Plan A being authoriatrian and Plan C being permissive. Plan B is figuring out a problem and each side coming to doable solutions. It is much more than that obviously. This is a well worth it read. It works wonders for my explosive kid and for the others that are not so explosive.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

i read the book and i thought it was great.
i read it when my ds was only 2 years old, but now that he is 3, he is becoming more and more explosive. i think i need to reread the book to refresh my memory.
Does anyone have an experience whether or not plan B works for toddlers his age??


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

According to the authors, a child needs the skills of a typically developing 3 year old in order for Plan B to work well.


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## honeysesame (Dec 10, 2005)

this idea is really eye-opening for me. this morning ds (6 yo) replied enthusiastically to my questions about what for breakfast with his whole specific plan of how he likes breakfast these days (toast, butter, jam, runny egg yolk from fried egg on top of that, and then scrambled egg on top of that!) and i set about making it (we make scrambled and fried anyhow, so no trouble) but for one reason and another didn't get the eggs right so the fried fell apart and ds quickly despaired and before i could offer problem-solving ideas began a full blown tantrum with yelling crying and kicking and screaming.... i just tried to remain present and calm and tell him i was glad to try to work it out when he was ready that i had a few ideas, and after a few minutes we did.... dh even didn't intervene, just closed the door to the room ds eventually landed in and said something half sarcastically to me (ds couldn't hear) about letting him have his feelings (any ideas to get dh a little more on my page?).... i wonder if my approach helped toward quicker equilibrium? anyhow, sorry to ramble on, but does this sound like an explosive child kind of thing?


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## a(TM)?Star (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm really glad to see this post. I'm off to the library to see if they carry this book. I'll be back.

BTW, this thread may be a sign, ds spent the entire 2 days crying.


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## honeysesame (Dec 10, 2005)

how funny that we have had a most explosive day after being exposed to these ideas. evening was way worse than breakfast. i'm really interested to hear other people's experiences and ideas/methods. i find myself staying calm to a point and then feeling really angry and like ds is spoiled/anal/inconsiderate. how do you avoid this? or, inochizo, what did you have in mind for the thread....?








ETA: i do want to get the book, too....


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## anudi01 (Aug 11, 2004)

need to read this book.

subbing


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i highly recommend the yahoo consensual living group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

I keep meaning to get this book. Looks like my trip to the library needs to happen this week.








Wendi


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

OT: wendi, i love the smilies you picked for your kids.


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## lmkirche (Jun 7, 2006)

Has anyone viewed the DVD?
It looks interesting. . .but $56?
It's definately worth it if it is as good as you all say it is.


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## lmkirche (Jun 7, 2006)

What age would you say this is for?


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## lactivist (Jun 14, 2005)

Honeybee ~







Thanks! They seemed appropriate.

I need a book called the Explosive Parent today.









Wendi


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lmkirche* 
What age would you say this is for?

all ages. applied to my son when he was 18 months old.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Holy crap! I forgot to sub and now the thread is outta control!

I just finished The Explosive Child. It was so good. Now I just gotta get DH on board. He is the main caregiver and he has already said, "I am so tired of this basket stuff." AHHHH! I just want to scream. I am soooo tired of tantrums and anger from DS.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeysesame* 
this idea is really eye-opening for me. this morning ds (6 yo) replied enthusiastically to my questions about what for breakfast with his whole specific plan of how he likes breakfast these days (toast, butter, jam, runny egg yolk from fried egg on top of that, and then scrambled egg on top of that!) and i set about making it (we make scrambled and fried anyhow, so no trouble) but for one reason and another didn't get the eggs right so the fried fell apart and ds quickly despaired and before i could offer problem-solving ideas began a full blown tantrum with yelling crying and kicking and screaming.... i just tried to remain present and calm and tell him i was glad to try to work it out when he was ready that i had a few ideas, and after a few minutes we did.... dh even didn't intervene, just closed the door to the room ds eventually landed in and said something half sarcastically to me (ds couldn't hear) about letting him have his feelings (any ideas to get dh a little more on my page?).... i wonder if my approach helped toward quicker equilibrium? anyhow, sorry to ramble on, but does this sound like an explosive child kind of thing?

Oh yeah! That's it!

DS is much like this only less severe. He becoming more flexible and tolerant.

I do think many 2 yr are basically "The Explosive Child" I think when it starts to extend to 3 and 4 yr then you can truely see the personality. My DD is explosive but she calms quickly and adjusts easily. She also has a much better emotional intelligence. The book talks a lot about other diagnoses that often are mistaken or accompany this type of kiddo.

Basket A - Things worth a meltdown - Usually safety only and still may be Basket B in our house if possible

Basket B - Important but nogotiable. Teach your child to find something in the middle before "vapor lock"

Basket C - Things you can let go of

Before this book we were just doing Basket A and C and mostly C because the tantrums could last 15-30 min especially in the evening. But with Basket B you can teach your child to negotiate and work on the "Collaborative Problem solving"

I think any child even if they are not Explosive would benefit from this teaching especially at young age.

I just want to connect with others and hear how everyone is managing.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

My 4yo has been and is explosive also. The hardest is bedtime. He's always given us a hard time about going to bed, and even though I'd like to put it in Basket A, if a meltdown occurs right before bed, he won't go to sleep for at least an hour. And if I do a Basket C, then he would ask to read books after books, and he would eventually get overtired and get second wind. There's no putting him to bed when that happens either. We've been trying Basket B, but sometimes he's just non-negotiable. We then resort to a car ride...

We're also doing a chart, but he would say "I didn't want it anyway!" Arrggg... What do you do w/ such a strong-willed child?


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

What behavior does your DC have that makes YOU want to explode?
What other diagnoses or other behaviors have you noticed?

My DS's violence makes me so mad. I have such a hard time with this. For example, DS likes to bite DD. He generally bites fairly gently but sometimes harder. I am actually sometimes amazed at his ability to control himself. He gets really mad sometimes and doesn't hit at all but all bets are off the DD does something he does like. However, if I start to show any anger at his behavior he will start to bite more and harder. He started doing this with yelling in my ear too. Sometimes I feel I am raising a sociopath. He likes to wave knives around. He's destroyed multiple things. The knife thing was mainly from watching Peter Pan and Captain Hook fights. I am also really trying to get DH to limit TV watching because it seems to excerbate some of issues.

I think DS has ADD/ADHD, poor social and emotion skills, and poor transitioning skills. He has some ODD tendancies but not too bad. He may have some general anxiety that he is not able to fully express.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
My 4yo has been and is explosive also. The hardest is bedtime. He's always given us a hard time about going to bed, and even though I'd like to put it in Basket A, if a meltdown occurs right before bed, he won't go to sleep for at least an hour. And if I do a Basket C, then he would ask to read books after books, and he would eventually get overtired and get second wind. There's no putting him to bed when that happens either. We've been trying Basket B, but sometimes he's just non-negotiable. We then resort to a car ride...

We're also doing a chart, but he would say "I didn't want it anyway!" Arrggg... What do you do w/ such a strong-willed child?


Oh yeah! Bed is a huge issue for us too. See HERE I am trying to keep it in Basket A with lots of routine and quiet time. My DS will not just sit and read unless we hold him. Timers have been really great for us. DS will now say, "Set the timer, Mama."


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Wow, Zoe... I think I had a twin son and didn't know it!! He is pretty much to the tee as your DS about going to bed.

I have The Floppy Sleep Game CD, and he liked it enough that he would request it. But that's only when he's willing to lay down... and he usually winds up rolling around in bed, not doing anything that the CD says to do, and he won't lay still to listen to the story. And he stays up to listen to the whole thing, so anything w/ words are out of the picture now. I'm usually half asleep by the first few minutes... LOL. I haven't read the book, but I've tried telling him to lay still, relax, close his eyes, etc but he just wouldn't do it. He fights every chance he gets.

He has a Sensory Processing Disorder which makes it a bit harder for him to fall asleep. I've been meaning to make a weighted blanket for him - I've heard good things about it - the weight or pressure on the joints relaxes and calms them down. Even a tight bear hug. You might want to check this SPD symptom list to see if anything fits your DS. Mine has been in occupational therapy for 3 months, and I started noticing improvements.

I also think he'll wind up w/ ADHD and bipolar II like myself (just recently diagnosed). I have inattentive ADHD, not hyperactive, and DS is not too hyper. But my brain is super hyperactive, and I can tell DS's is too. It's so hard to shut down his brain at night. Bath, books, CDs w/ words, and anything before bed is stimulating to him and will just keep him awake.

And if he would just stop moving, he would fall asleep... I wouldn't mind so much if he didn't need me in his bed. I'm a SAHM, so I feel the need to get stuff done after he goes to sleep, so I'm anxious for him to fall asleep, and that doesn't help either. After about 45 min of laying down in bed w/ him, I start to get frustrated. I'm also an explosive adult also, which is getting better w/ medication...

I see a psychologist, and we talk about my DS a lot. His temperment makes him believe that he could have bipolar also, so we started going to a social worker (much like a child pshychologist w/ no degree). She's going to start play therapy w/ him. She's the one that recommended The Explosive Child book. I'll have to try Rescue Remedy, Calme Forte, etc. w/ him.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
Oh yeah! Bed is a huge issue for us too. See HERE I am trying to keep it in Basket A with lots of routine and quiet time. My DS will not just sit and read unless we hold him. Timers have been really great for us. DS will now say, "Set the timer, Mama."

For you and the other poster who mentioned bedtime struggles:

Just wanted to share my experience with an explosive child who *needs* a regular bedtime and consistent, quality sleep. We found that it actually helped to make bedtime a Plan B issue-one to work together on (the latest version of the book talks about "plans" rather than "baskets," and imo is a better, more clear description of the collaborative problem solving approach). Our approach wasn't to sit down and say "what time would you like to go to bed?" but rather "what would help you feel relaxed and fall asleep more easily?" And then lots of experimenting, working with our child to help her transition to sleep more easily.

It was like this:
me: I've noticed that going to sleep is kind of tough for you. what's up?
dc: I don't know.
me: It seems like it's kind of hard for you to relax at night. Is that right?
dc: kind of.
me: I've also noticed that you get up a lot to tell me you're scared.
dc: yeah
me: So it seems like you feel scared at night, and that might be part of why it's hard to relax. Is that right?
dc: yeah.
me: And sometimes you say you just don't want to go to sleep. Can you tell me about that?
dc: I don't know. I just don't like to sleep.
me: I hear you. You don't like to sleep. And sometimes you feel scared at night, and it's hard for you to relax. Is that right? <insert hugs>
me: Here's the thing: I think it's really important for you to fall asleep earlier. When you stay awake late, you're very cranky the next day. I wonder if we we can find ways of helping you relax so that you can fall asleep better, so that bedtime is more enjoyable for you and so that you can feel better during the day. What do you think? Have any ideas?
dc: I don't know.
me: well, what if we try some special relaxation stories?
dc: okay

And so on. Totally Plan B. Her concern: doesn't like falling asleep because she's scared and has trouble relaxing. My concern: she gets cranky and difficult to live with without enough good quality sleep. We found a solution that addressed both concerns, no Plan A necessary. We made several attempts at problem-solving until we found a combination that worked. And one thing we did try and agree on was an earlier bedtime (which helped-it gave us more time to help her relax before I got impatient, and gave her more time to relax while still falling asleep at a reasonable time).

An excellent book that helped us was _Sleepless In America_, by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, which has a lot of great information and ideas for helping kids "flip the switch" to sleep.

One thing Dr. Green said at a workshop, that he really emphasized, was that the more important the issue, the more it needs to be addressed by Plan B. Plan A is for those times when you do not have time to engage in Plan B: your kid is about to run into the street, for example. But to find a truly durable solution, eventually you'll need to use Plan B proactively. And Plan B works best as a proactive measure, problem-solving that begins before you're in the midst of a problem. Once a it's already bedtime, for example, you're now using emergency (rather than proactive) Plan B. Emergency Plan B can work, but you'll have more success the more proactive you are. And remember, it usually takes a couple (or a few) tries to find a solution that really works long-term. If your first solution doesn't work, that doesn't mean Plan B doesn't work. It just means that now you have more information to help you find another solution.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
It was like this:
me: I've noticed that going to sleep is kind of tough for you. what's up?
dc: I don't know.
me: It seems like it's kind of hard for you to relax at night. Is that right?
dc: kind of.
me: I've also noticed that you get up a lot to tell me you're scared.
dc: yeah
me: So it seems like you feel scared at night, and that might be part of why it's hard to relax. Is that right?
dc: yeah.
me: And sometimes you say you just don't want to go to sleep. Can you tell me about that?
dc: I don't know. I just don't like to sleep.
me: I hear you. You don't like to sleep. And sometimes you feel scared at night, and it's hard for you to relax. Is that right? <insert hugs>
me: Here's the thing: I think it's really important for you to fall asleep earlier. When you stay awake late, you're very cranky the next day. I wonder if we we can find ways of helping you relax so that you can fall asleep better, so that bedtime is more enjoyable for you and so that you can feel better during the day. What do you think? Have any ideas?
dc: I don't know.
me: well, what if we try some special relaxation stories?
dc: okay

An excellent book that helped us was _Sleepless In America_, by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, which has a lot of great information and ideas for helping kids "flip the switch" to sleep.

If your first solution doesn't work, that doesn't mean Plan B doesn't work. It just means that now you have more information to help you find another solution.

How old was your dc? I definately don't want to do Plan with A and have not had any meltdowns around bedtime in the last few weeks. I have decided that the routine is key and that we need to try to be home and relaxing most evenings with only the rare exception.
I will try talking to DS, which I doubt will help. He knows he needs to sleep, because we've talked a lot about why sleep is important. He knows that a back rub will help him relax but refuses it because he doesn't want to sleep. I will try more collaboration, though. I hope it helps. He seems to be enjoying the idea of solving problems together. His problem solving is actually quite good. He can find any way to escape the house that he wants.

Thanks for the suggestions!!!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Well, we really got into Plan B when my dd was about 7?? So she was older.

However, we did bedtime Plan B with my littlest one when she was 3. That involved a lot less talking. Sometimes we'd talk through the problem solving, other times we'd just try stuff (in a "would you like to try a backrub tonight?" kind of way). And with her at age 3, going to bed earlier was key because it was when she was overtired that she refused to go to bed. When we moved her bedtime, we didn't even say anything, we just shifted our routine so that it started earlier.

I did find that with my two kids who resisted bedtime, once we experimented enough to find a few reliable ways to help them relax and to make bedtime pleasant and relaxed, they actually stopped resisting bedtime and began to ask to go to bed. They began to view it as something pleasant rather than something to resist. It took time, though, and a committment to being patient and present, and a lot of creativity. But it has brought a lasting, durable improvement.

Oh, and books on CD and CD's of nature sounds are popular for relaxing here. Also, there are some free children's meditations (that even my 4 year old likes) that you can download from iTunes.

Anyway, I'm rambling on and you haven't actually been having bedtime meltdowns. So I'll stop now. I just remember how hard it used to be for us.

Quote:

His problem solving is actually quite good. He can find any way to escape the house that he wants.
I'm sure it isn't funny when it happens, but







That's a creative, determined child. Qualities that can serve a person well in life.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
Anyway, I'm rambling on and you haven't actually been having bedtime meltdowns. So I'll stop now. I just remember how hard it used to be for us.

I'm sure it isn't funny when it happens, but







That's a creative, determined child. Qualities that can serve a person well in life.

We have been using white noise of the ocean for several years now. I love it. It blocks out a lot of external noises.

I am on the verge of a meltdown about everyother night and so is he so these ideas are still very helpful. His stalling drives me crazy.

He can open the window and climb on to the hose holder, breaks open the kid proof door handle covers with his wooden sword, and uses a chair to reach the latch pull on the 6' foot fence. If he really wants, my attention he crosses the street and climbs the little maple tree across the street. Mostly he just turns on the water and plays with that or climbs all on top of the car. I can't believe that we've had to make most of this plan c issues. Except the street, which I trying to teach him to watch for cars.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I am rereading this book, as my little inflexible one is going through a tough time right now.

Two problems we have:

Me: So you don't want to____. What's up? Why don't you?
DD: I don't know.
Me: Is it because __________?
DD: No.
Me: Could it be___________?
DD: No.
Me: Can you think of a reason?
DD: I JUST DON'T WANT TO!!
Me:









Also:

Me: So you don't want to ______ because _________. The problem is, ________. Do you have any ideas about how we can solve this?
DD: No.
Me: How about we______?
DD: No. I don't like that idea.
Me: Well, then, how about we______?
DD: No. I don't like that idea either.
Me:









Um, help! For the record, though it sure doesn't sound like it in these examples. DD is an extremely verbal, creative, talkative kid.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I am rereading this book, as my little inflexible one is going through a tough time right now.

Two problems we have:

Me: So you don't want to____. What's up? Why don't you?
DD: I don't know.
Me: Is it because __________?
DD: No.
Me: Could it be___________?
DD: No.
Me: Can you think of a reason?
DD: I JUST DON'T WANT TO!!
Me:









Also:

Me: So you don't want to ______ because _________. The problem is, ________. Do you have any ideas about how we can solve this?
DD: No.
Me: How about we______?
DD: No. I don't like that idea.
Me: Well, then, how about we______?
DD: No. I don't like that idea either.
Me:









Um, help! For the record, though it sure doesn't sound like it in these examples. DD is an extremely verbal, creative, talkative kid.

I have found that the transition TIME is the biggest issue. DS is just not ready in his head to move on to the next thing. He has been pretty good with the timer. When he's home he doesn't want to leave. When he's out he doesn't want to come home. I just hope someday it doesn't take us an hour or more to leave the house with 10 warnings and 2 resets of the timer. We not against bribery here to avoid a meltdown. For example, we went and got Gelatto that we ate at the resturant. I had DH get some doughnut holes for the kids to have in the car. I know it's bad but the alternative it much much worse especially in the evening. BTW DS fell asleep in car. He was crazy at the resturant though. We may not go for dinner for a while. Even when we eat outside he runs around and does crazy stuff.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quick thoughts: change up the wording, stick with the empathy step longer maybe, have several conversations (it can take lots of time), maybe just try ideas (solutions) with less talking about it directly with her (this works with my 4 year old).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Two problems we have:

Me: So you don't want to____. What's up? Why don't you?
DD: I don't know.
Me: Is it because __________?
DD: No.
Me: Could it be___________?
DD: No.
Me: Can you think of a reason?
DD: I JUST DON'T WANT TO!!
Me: Okay, I hear you. You just don't want to. Thing is, [I really need to go to work on time in the morning]. I wonder if there's a way for us to make it so [the morning is easier for you, and I still get to work on time]. or "I hear you. You don't want to get in the car and go pick up the kids. The thing is, they'll be waiting for us and they'll be scared if we're not there when they get out of school. What might we do to make going in the car better for you, and still get to the kids on time?"

Also:

Me: So you don't want to ______ because _________. I hear you. Sometimes I feel the same way. The problem isMy concern is ________. Do you have any ideas about how we can solve this? I wonder if there's a way for you to _______ and for me to ________. Do you have any ideas?
DD: No.
Me: How about we______?
DD: No. I don't like that idea.
Me: Well, then, how about we______?
DD: No. I don't like that idea either.
Me: Hmmm. What if we [insert crazy silly idea here]? (to connect, to laugh, to lighten it up--this sometimes gets mine talking)

Um, help! For the record, though it sure doesn't sound like it in these examples. DD is an extremely verbal, creative, talkative kid.
Could she be having trouble identifying and/or articulating her emotions and/or the problem? I find that my very verbal and articulate girl has difficulty when it comes to identifying and articulating her emotions and the problem. We found that working on this helped Plan B work better for us.

I may have something around here about "troubleshooting Plan B" which I can share with you but I'll need to dig it up tomorrow. Some things that get in the way of this working: one or both parties don't have the skills to engage fully in Plan B, too much emergency Plan B, having only one concern on the table, having solutions on the table instead of concerns ("I want pizza" is a solution, not a concern...."I'm hungry" is a concern).

eta: Dr. Greene says that it can take many attempts at Plan B before a child trusts it and willingly participates in it. So I think it's normal for it not to go smoothly at first, and this was our experience as well. As time went on, it became easier for all of us. Also, it's common to not find a durable solution the first time or two you address an issue with Plan B.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
I have found that the transition TIME is the biggest issue. DS is just not ready in his head to move on to the next thing. He has been pretty good with the timer. When he's home he doesn't want to leave. When he's out he doesn't want to come home.

This is DS too. To get him to leave the house, I sometimes don't even give him warnings and tell him right before we leave that we have to go somewhere. This results in fewer meltdowns.

When we're somewhere, I do tell him we have to leave in a few minutes, and he sometimes will say goodbyes right away and jolts out before I'm ready. I think those times he knows he's exhausted and needs to rest even though he's having a blast.

loraxc - your conversation sounds like ours! I think being empathetic is really the key - I was able to persuade him into laying down in bed one night (he was really tired) because I tried to empathsize w/ him rather than try to "bribe him" to go to bed.

sledg - Thank you for all your suggestions. My DS is like Zoe's - if something works to get him to sleep, he'll avoid it. So I usually have to change the bedtime routine quite often. I do start our bedtime routine at least an hour before bedtime so we'd have plenty of time, but it's really hard when it's still light out at 9:30pm, and a lot of kids are out playing. If I say stuff like "if you don't get enough sleep you're cranky the next day," he'll say "but I won't be!" He really knows what to say to avoid doing things he doesn't want to.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I do think part of it is just that she is verrry slow to transition, period. A LOT of our issues are about this. We sometimes joke that all our problems stem from her excessively long attention span!







Given enough time, she often will do ____without much issue. We really try to accommodate this, but sometimes even a long time is not enough, and sometimes we just can't wait.

sledg, your good ideas are definitely duly noted.







Yes, she does have trouble identifiying and naming emotions. I am trying to remember to do more role-playing with her. We did some the other day where we modeled "kind" and "rude" voices to each other and she keeps saying how much she liked doing this. This sort of amazes me because I was sure she comprehended this (and after all, she modeled the two voices perfectly!) but who knows....

I also know some of it is me. It is HARD for me to be empathetic at times--I try, and often say the "right" things, but I am sure my body language speaks for me-- and for all that she seems to have trouble understanding some social cues, she certainly does pick up on it when I am getting tense.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I also know some of it is me. It is HARD for me to be empathetic at times--I try, and often say the "right" things, but I am sure my body language speaks for me-- and for all that she seems to have trouble understanding some social cues, she certainly does pick up on it when I am getting tense.

I hear ya. I need to be in a very good mood to be empathetic the whole time DS whines and resists. If I can keep myself together, then so can he. My tone of voice sometimes doesn't match what I'm saying if I'm frustrated, so I'm sure that doesn't help either.


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## capagrl (Jun 15, 2006)

Subbing - can't read it all yet, need to go to bed, but definitely need to be here!!


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## honeysesame (Dec 10, 2005)

this is great to read. i appreciate the role playing dialogues! mine is also often the "no, i don't know, etc." conversationalist about this type of thing. (except in his case there's usually also several moments of "[silence].....what did you say?" as his attention wanders







-- esp since turning 6!

i also feel like my body language doesn't always match what i'm saying. i really want to start to *connect* instead of distancing myself and feeling impatient with the situation when it gets loud and dramatic. i find it tricky (i think i posted this on another thread) to address the subject and the manner at the same time; i seem to either pick problem-solving whatever's the subject of the meltdown or addressing the meltdown itself-- any ideas about that?

also (i know, i know, i should read the book







) is plan b a concept that you explain to your child? or is it just something you keep in mind as your own approach? how is it different than just general/basic communicating and negotiating to find a mutually acceptable solution? totally feel free to just tell me to go read the darn thing, but maybe someone feels like it will help them understand it to explain to someone







?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Definitely read the book. You can get a nice overview at www.thinkkids.org. In particular, if you read the blog, both the parents blog and the clinicians blog have some examples of Plan B.

These are the three plans the book talks about. They are not a ranking system (so it's *not* that you use plan A for really important things, plan B for sort of important things, and plan C for things you don't care about), they are three separate approaches to parenting/addressing concerns.:

Plan A: addresses the parent's concern, not the child's, does not reduce meltdowns, does not teach skills (aka imposing the parent's will). This is best used when there is no time for Plan B.

Plan C: addresses the child's concern, not the parents' concerns, avoids meltdowns, but does not teach skills. (aka "let it go", child gets to do what child wants) This is best used for issues that are not currently a priority OR if the parent has no concern about the issue.

Plan B: addresses BOTH the child's concern and the adult's concern in a realistic manner that is satisfactory to both parties, reduces meltdowns, teaches skills. Plan B leads to durable solutions that work for parent and child. The goal is to find a mutually satisfactory, doable, realistic solution.

"A problem is two concerns that have yet to be reconciled."

Things that I think are different about Plan B:

1) It's problem solving, not negotiating. When we "give a little" in Plan B, we're not giving up getting our concerns met--we're letting go of particular solutions we think we need in order to meet that concern. KWIM?

2) In Plan B there's an emphasis on getting at what the actual _concern_ of each party is. Often negotiations get stuck because the parties involved are focused on the solutions they want, thinking of those solutions as their concerns. We all do this to some extent. Problem solving gets much easier when we "drill down" (Greene's words) to concerns. This is what the empathy step is all about. It's not "oh, that does sound hard." It's reflective listening and neutral questions in order to get to what the actual concern is. It's a very important step.

3) In Plan B the emphasis is on problem solving _proactively_. If you're doing Plan B once the problem has already begun (your child has already said "I want pizza" while you're driving to an appointment and want to be on time), that's _emergency_ Plan B. Emergency Plan B can work, but relying on emergency Plan B too much is not going to help in the long run. It's important to be as proactive as possible. Meltdowns tend to actually be very predictable, once you start to keep track. This is good, because it allows us to sit down _before_ a problem is happening and problem solve.

4) The idea is that "children do well if they can." Children act out when the demands of a situation outstrip their ability to respond adaptively. If a child is melting down frequently, it's not that they need more motivation, they need to learn or improve skills. There are numerous cognitive, emotional, social, and language skills that are required for any of us to handle frustration adaptively. So in order to help our kids have fewer meltdowns, we need to help them learn these skills. Plan B goes a very long way toward helping them learn these skills, they learn them as we engage in Plan B with them and model those skills. *example: My child needed to learn to be more aware of, better identify, and better communicate her emotions in order to be less aggressive. Part of Plan B was figuring this out, by talking to her and observing her, then finding ways of helping her learn these skills. This was very proactive work, not something we just did when she started fighting with her siblings. This was "hey, she can't communicate this stuff well, we're going to work all day every day on helping her learn to do this."

5) The more important the problem, the more it needs to be addressed with Plan B. A lot of parenting approaches are some version of picking your battles, and when it comes to safety issues it's all about mom and dad imposing their will. But Dr. Greene, and I agree with him, thinks that safety issues are so very important that if they are at all likely to come up again, they need to be addressed with Plan B. Plan B is what gets you durable solutions. So yes, I need to use Plan A when my child is about to run into the road, but if there's any possibility that might happen again we need to address this issue with Plan B.

That is my brief take on what makes Plan B different, and so wonderful. (I feel I should say that although I love Plan B, and have been to workshops to learn it better, and have gotten better at it, I still feel like I suck at it too often: it's not super easy to learn to do, mainly because it really is a very different way of viewing kids and parenting than what most of us were raised with. Even just getting in the habit of getting to concerns rather than solutions can be a lot harder than it sounds. And this, apparently, is a very common experience of parents trying to learn Plan B.)

I don't know if I actually explained all this to my explosive child. I think I just said something like "I've noticed......I'd like to work this out together _with_ you, because your feelings and what you need matter to me a lot" as a preface to trying to problem solve the first several times. She was, I think, 7 when we started this in earnest. I have used this approach with my other children, too, (it's how I strive to parent, I think it's a great approach for all kids) but have never formally explained it to them. Just jumped in. I might sometimes remind them "I want to work this out with you" or "I want to help you."

Staying calm and really being present with them to do this is a challenge for me, when we're trying to address an issue as it's occurring or about to occur. And they do sense when I'm impatient/too frustrated/too angry and not really letting go of my agenda in order to listen. This is why Plan B is best as a proactive approach, outside that frustrating moment. And sometimes, you do just have to decide to talk about it later because now is not a good time for whatever reason for whichever person.

eat I've totally rambled, but this has been so good for me. I needed the reminder. Thanks.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeysesame* 
i also feel like my body language doesn't always match what i'm saying. i really want to start to *connect* instead of distancing myself and feeling impatient with the situation when it gets loud and dramatic. i find it tricky (i think i posted this on another thread) to address the subject and the manner at the same time; i seem to either pick problem-solving whatever's the subject of the meltdown or addressing the meltdown itself-- any ideas about that?

My DS tends to reflect any angry feels, frustration, or anxiety 2-3 fold. So I find that I have to be super calm with all my interactions. It I am too directive he have this ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) reaction so it is best to not critisize what he is doing in the moment. I think modulating our feelings and staying calm is very important and difficult at least for me. I tend to hit a limit sometimes and go over the edge myself.


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## honeysesame (Dec 10, 2005)

hmmm, yes! they do reflect back our emotional state so frequently! oh, the challenges of being human....









sledg, thanks so much for taking the time to share all of that! super helpful and i will check out the website too. seems like there's a lot in common with nonviolent communication, too...?

we had more breakfast issues again today so i think i'll try to tackle that one. although really today was more about dh getting frustrated (with ds' particularity about breakfast-- using too much butter







) and ds responding-- he hates it when dh gets a certain tone with him. but we actually had an interesting conversation about it. dh basically said he wasn't willing to change his tone b/c it's the best he feels he can do in those moments. and then after a few minutes (when things were a little calmer) i said something to ds about when you can't change someone's behavior, that you can try to understand their feelings and your own feelings and sometimes shift your response, which sometimes brings more peace to the situation too.... big ideas but actually ds seemed to kind of get it. i really do need to work with him more proactively though. ramble....


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## HipGal (Aug 16, 2006)

I've been reading and following the Explosive Child book and it seemed to be helping for awhile with my 4 1/2 year old ds. Does anyone else have problems with their child following through with whatever you decided together? For example, tonight he wanted more books before going to sleep and I expressed my concern that it was late and he needed rest for an exciting day tomorrow. We agreed on two short books. He was fine during the books but when it was then time to go to sleep (I was lying down with him), he started asking for "just one more!". This turned into a huge half-hour long tantrum involving him screaming, throwing things, hitting, etc. etc.

I feel like doing Plan B is making him think that EVERYTHING in now negotiable and that when our compromise is done, we can start all over and he can get more of whatever it is that he wants.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

That sounds like us! It really depends on his mood - sometimes he's fine w/ 3 books, sometimes not. What's been helping is that we moved his bookcase downstairs, and I have him pick out 2-3 books that he wants to read in bed. I just have to remember to bring them back downstairs. LOL.

If he insists on more, I tell him I get to pick one out or read the same one (shortest) and make it quick.

I learned that it's not really negotiating - it's problem-solving. We're supposed to teach them to solve their own problems. So we're supposed to connect with the child first: "I understand you want to read another book." Then something like "But I don't want you to because it will delay bedtime, and bedtime is important. How can we work it out?" I know bedtime is really not the best time to do that - once they're past their tired stage, they'll get wound up and not want to go to sleep. We're still working on bedtime.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
That sounds like us! It really depends on his mood - sometimes he's fine w/ 3 books, sometimes not. What's been helping is that we moved his bookcase downstairs, and I have him pick out 2-3 books that he wants to read in bed. I just have to remember to bring them back downstairs. LOL.

If he insists on more, I tell him I get to pick one out or read the same one (shortest) and make it quick.

I learned that it's not really negotiating - it's problem-solving. We're supposed to teach them to solve their own problems. So we're supposed to connect with the child first: "I understand you want to read another book." Then something like "But I don't want you to because it will delay bedtime, and bedtime is important. How can we work it out?" I know bedtime is really not the best time to do that - once they're past their tired stage, they'll get wound up and not want to go to sleep. We're still working on bedtime.

Ugg, BEDTIME. It was fine for a while and now it's bad again. Anyway... Yeah, I have found that DS often will not follow through with his agreement. However, since his main issue is transitions after several renogotiations he will finally comply with the agreement. I often just plan a lot of time to get things done. For example, last night he wanted to play his computer game. He said when the time was up "I need more time." We did extend the time about 3x. Even though I had to unplug the computer, he was pretty ok with it. He still had a meltdown later but not about that.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

the computer and TV go off here at 6 PM. after dinner is reserved for fine motor resistive activities.... like legos, sculpey/playdough, coloring, scissors, violin, puzzles, etc or gross motor resistive... pushing and pulling activities.... bike riding is one, weights, etc... or heavy work, helping dad move heavy stuff around. (books, rocks, bricks, etc)

resistive activities help sooth the CNS and make kids (and adults) more open to bed time.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

I am at a loss with this... DS hasn't done it in a while so I thought he outgrew this stage, but I thought wrong...

He used to be very mean and aggressive to babies, especially toddlers. Today at a park, I saw him knock my friend's 18mo down flat on her butt. My friend actually saw what happened before that - he extended his arm out and pushed her, and she didn't fall over. So he turned around and rammed right into her (this is the part I saw).

I pulled him aside, got down to his level, and asked why he did that, and of course he said I don't know. I'm sure it was the impulsiveness, but why at babies? I told him if he did that again that we were going to go home immediately. I used a very sterm voice. He didn't do it again.

So that's not really collaborative problem solving. But how in the he** do you problem solve or use GD when it's an impulse issue? Later today I asked him why he did that, and he said because she was in his way.







Sometimes I wish I could crawl into a hole and never come out...

ETA: I forgot that he was caught kicking our cat twice today too. Arrggg!


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
I am at a loss with this... DS hasn't done it in a while so I thought he outgrew this stage, but I thought wrong...

He used to be very mean and aggressive to babies, especially toddlers. Today at a park, I saw him knock my friend's 18mo down flat on her butt. My friend actually saw what happened before that - he extended his arm out and pushed her, and she didn't fall over. So he turned around and rammed right into her (this is the part I saw).

I pulled him aside, got down to his level, and asked why he did that, and of course he said I don't know. I'm sure it was the impulsiveness, but why at babies? I told him if he did that again that we were going to go home immediately. I used a very sterm voice. He didn't do it again.

So that's not really collaborative problem solving. But how in the he** do you problem solve or use GD when it's an impulse issue? Later today I asked him why he did that, and he said because she was in his way.







Sometimes I wish I could crawl into a hole and never come out...

ETA: I forgot that he was caught kicking our cat twice today too. Arrggg!

My DS is very agressive with other children too. I believe it has to do with social/emotion development delays, which I think is briefly discussed in the book, "The Explosive Child". I try to stay fairly close to DS at the park and in other unfamiliar social situations. I am trying to teach appropriate social interactions. DS will bark at other unfamiliar kids but if I can get them playing together in a physical game he starts to bond fairly quickly. Avoiding smaller children is good too. He will bark at them. Fortunately, his impluse control is pretty good and he doesn't just hit them or push them. If he gets mad at his sister or his sister tries to engage him when he mad, I have to restrain him. He almost pushed her down the stairs yesterday. As she grows I am teaching her to stay away from him during these times. His anger and violence is very difficult for me to deal with but if I get angry or even confrontational it just escalates.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 
the computer and TV go off here at 6 PM. after dinner is reserved for fine motor resistive activities.... like legos, sculpey/playdough, coloring, scissors, violin, puzzles, etc or gross motor resistive... pushing and pulling activities.... bike riding is one, weights, etc... or heavy work, helping dad move heavy stuff around. (books, rocks, bricks, etc)

resistive activities help sooth the CNS and make kids (and adults) more open to bed time.

Good Ideas Thanks!!!!


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Hey Anybody have experience with kids unbuckling from the carseat. This is driving me crazy. I am about stop going anywhere with DS after 3 pm in the afternoon. AHHHHH!







:







:


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

I remember seeing a childproof lock-type thing for seatbelt buckles at BabiesRUs. Maybe something like that would work?

ETA: My DS doesn't know how to undo buckles yet, but he can undo the top clasp on his 5pt harness carseat. If he ever does that, we immediately pull over and explain the dangers. We also tell him a police would give us a ticket. He usually goes back in immediately when we mention the police. LOL.


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## lesmac (Dec 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
Hey Anybody have experience with kids unbuckling from the carseat. This is driving me crazy. I am about stop going anywhere with DS after 3 pm in the afternoon. AHHHHH!







:







:

okay -- i posted somewhere else about this...maybe 6 weeks ago. we had been dealing w/ the same issue for about a year, starting when dd was 18 months. she unclips the britax and worms her way out...to wander around the back of the van while i'm driving 70 mph up the highway! right around 2 1/2, she upped the anty by figuring out how to push w/ both thumbs hard enough to unclick the button on the crotch strap every single time we buckled her. we spent a lot of time parked on the side of the road, and moored at the house.

one day , after driving a mile w/ four escape attempts, i drove her to the fire station. fireman jim climbed in & talked to her about how important it was to stay in her seat...and that the buttons were for "adults only." something about the visit or the phrase "adults only" really resonated, b/c she stays actually in her carseat now. she unclicks herself when we pull into a parking spot or the driveway, but she announces it (proudly and loudly.)

the "adults only" thing has slowed her down in other areas, too. she identifies cabinets in the bathroom, or changing cds, etc., as "adults only" and d/n touch them any more. if she starts heading towards something dangerous, 90% of the time i remind her that 'whoops, that's something for adults only...'.

good luck. i started reading "the explosive child", as "chronically inflexible" is an *excellent* way to describe my daughter, but i realized that she's really too young for anything more than some negotiating.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
I remember seeing a childproof lock-type thing for seatbelt buckles at BabiesRUs. Maybe something like that would work?

ETA: My DS doesn't know how to undo buckles yet, but he can undo the top clasp on his 5pt harness carseat. If he ever does that, we immediately pull over and explain the dangers. We also tell him a police would give us a ticket. He usually goes back in immediately when we mention the police. LOL.

Yeah, we did that but it does no good. Actually, talking to fireman might work or it just might him angrier. He gets pretty angry with any one redirecting him. Maybe when he's not upset.

Thanks for the input!


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

subbing. i ant to come back and talk about Addy and get tips on how to handle her explosions, etc.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleepyMamaBear* 
subbing. i ant to come back and talk about Addy and get tips on how to handle her explosions, etc.

Welcome, Tiffany!

More hugs. I just want to give any parents with children of this type personality a hug because it can be very challenging and draining. It is certainly not the most difficult hand that could be dealt but it certainly probably not the type of parenting you imagined you would be doing.

Now that I have a very verbal 2 yr. I realize how different DS is. She says "Sorry Mama" if accidently hits you or trips over you. "Thank you for the water, mama" "Excuse me, mama." These are things I almost never hear from DS and yet DD has mastered them at age 2 1/2 just from example.


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

you know i always thought Addy was an easy child.
until she turned 2.5 then she started getting explosive and moody, cranky, mean spirited, etc. she has alwaysbeen a sensitive spirited child. she is what alot have refered to as a "firecracker"







she is my little hurricane, sweeping through the house leaving devastation in her wake. she has a very hard time transitioning to things, especially if she doesnt want to be doing what we are transitioning to, like leaving the park, or turning off the tv. yesterday she was very explosive, and she just lashed out, with her words, and with her body to try and hurt whomever was around her at the time.
all day long.
took forever to get her to sleep.
then she woke for an hour long explosion.
all in all she had about 7 hours of sleep lastnight.
she wont nap, ever. she refuses to nap, and hasnt napped since she was freshly 2.
she is so tired today, she has huge dark circles under her eyes, and is sluggish and pretty out of it, but still refuses to sleep.

DH is taking her to the bookstore now to look for Matilda, he is putting us in the red just to keep her from blowing up.
and i dont blame him one bit.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

i just read this whole thread and noticed that a LOT of you have 4 year olds. imo, 4 was a whole lot worse than 2, i think because i couldn't just pick him up and redirect him anymore.







i read the book way too late but basically rode out this winter in plan C mode. now that he's 5 it's like someone flipped a switch. he's still an amazingly determined, self-assured, super smart, creative kid (and i wouldn't want it any other way!) but he's a lot more pleasant to be around. just wanted to







you all and say that, even if you're not seeing results right away (or most days not at all







), you're still laying the groundwork for the years to come and it WILL pay off.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Kelly - thanks for the info. We see a social worker, and she said that DS (just turned 4) was too young to be labeled an explosive child. I'm glad to hear that it gets easier. I'm hoping that it is just a phase... He's been explosive since before 2, and I know that's part of the terrible twos. 3s were worse like everyone else says (the age of defiance). I heard 4s were even harder... then 6/7s... I guess this will never end.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

I feel like with my DS there are too many genetic personality issues that are likely to make this an ongoing issue. Not that I don't believe it won't get better but there are too many areas that DS is likely to need help with ongoing. He has DH's decreased social/emotional intelligence, decreased ability to self monitor emotional, inflexiblity and frustration My lower frustration level and ADD and both My and DH's shyness. In general, I think DS issues are mild on the Explosive Child scale but still very real. He is also very ODD (Oppositional Definant disorder), which when I started this whole GD/AP thing I wouldn't think would be possible. Again part of why DS has problems is because DH has a lot of these issues and they just clash. I think with my and DH's awareness of all the above issues and DS development, it will get better over the next year but all those personality and skills set are likely to be with him the rest of his life. I know that he is still a great kid and will grow up to be a great person, it's just hard right now. He is very loving, smart, and active.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Wow, Zoe... Are you sure we're not the same family? LOL. I was just diagnosed w/ ADD inattentive type (didn't need to come out until I started having to deal with DS, which says a lot right there!). I'm very explosive without my meds. DH and I are both pretty shy and prefer to work alone most of the time.

The social worker said she didn't want to label my DS as ODD yet as this is still pretty normal for his age. I answered a questionnaire with about 100 questions, and according to the chart, he's a bit more oppositional than others his age, but she thinks it's a learned behavior (he learned what it takes to push my buttons to get whatever he wants) and that we can still correct it.

Both the social worker and the occupational therapist said I need to start saying "no" more and to endure meltdowns. I did start being a bit more firm with him lately, and it ended up in a meltdown only a few times. It could be his age, or it could be how I'm wording things. I learned a lot from this thread on how to talk to him rather than be strictly authoritative which usually backfires. You guys are great!









BTW, I started incorporating a little bit of 1-2-3 Magic again, and it's again working! I don't even mention what I'm going to take away from him, and he stops at 1 or 2. It could stop working again though.


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## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

I have just finished reading this book and felt a sense of relief my son is most definitely An Explosive Child he melts down most days and more than once on many occassions . Just having a different way of looking at his behaviour has made me change the way I react towards him. I am trying to implement the techniques in the books but it's early days. My son is 5 nearly 6 and has a 7 nearly 8 year old sister. He is melting down less but he uses his sister as a punching/ hitting bag and I don't know how to handle this with this new method and his other behaviour is constant name calling such as stupid. His name calling isn't just in anger he uses it all the time. I have been telling his sister to say to him " I don't like you saying that to me" but he continues to call her that.







:


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

alley cat, with our dd's aggression and name-calling we found that we needed to help her improve the skills of identifying her emotions and physical state, communicating her emotions and needs/concerns, and coping with uncomfortable emotions.

Initially, we'd sit down with her and talk about other things she can do when she's angry. We'd come up with a solution that sounded realistic and that she'd agree to, but the next time she got mad she'd be aggressive again. We'd also try to mediate Plan B between the kids when things got heated, but still we had a problem with aggression. We thought this might be an issue that Plan B just wouldn't work for. Eventually we figured out that we needed to be a lot *more* proactive than that: she really needed us to be helping her throughout the day every day identify her emotions, identify her concerns and needs (inluding things like I'm tired or hungry), learn coping skills, and learn better communication and problem-solving skills. This was something we had to start doing when things were good, not just in the heat of the moment. When she was aggressive (*better yet, when she was showing signs of nearing that point but not actually there yet), we'd have her leave the situation and sit until she was calm (taking space, chilling out, calming down so she could solve the problem--with some empathy/reflective listening from a parent, which helped her put those feelings into words). So for us Plan B for aggression really boiled down to: dd's concern (though she couldn't put it in words) was that she didn't have the skills to handle anger (or frustration or anxiety or irritability) more adaptively (and has difficulty regulating her emotions, which is part of handling them adaptively), our concern was that we needed her to be more safe in handling anger, etc., the solution was to find new, more effective ways of helping her learn the skills she needed.

There are a couple of books we liked, which helped us with ideas for helping dd learn skills: _Raising A Thinking Child_ has a lot of ideas about helping kids learn the communication, perspective-taking (empathy), and problem-solving skills they need to resolve conflicts with others (including things like evaluating how someone might feel if you say or do [x], learning to brainstorm, identifying feelings). _What To Do When Your Temper Flares_ is a book for kids (with adult help) about managing anger which inludes good information about anger, how to recognize it, how to defuse it and prevent it from getting out of control (taking breaks to calm down, keeping yourself calm), how to safely release anger, problem-solving, recognizing triggers, and "growing a fuse." This book is great because even if it seems a little advanced for a 6 year old, it's easy to read it as a parent and adapt it to help your child learn these things.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

One of my children is what is known as a HSC.

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm

Sometimes that trait manifested in meltdowns of the highest order. Scary ones, long ones.

One thing that worked for my child was being present, but quiet and calm. He could not express the why of his behaviors. He could not, until he was older, express that his insides were 'bunched up". For him, and still, less talk, more presence and calmness helps to bring him back.

It got easier as he got older, and now he is articulate about what's going on inside, and can now even say "I'm worried about this" or "This is making me anxious. It's too loud/busy/whatever".

4 can be a tricky age anyway, but for impulsive kids who feel 'bunched up' inside, it's even trickier. When we figured out the insides were not calm, we realized we had to make the 'outside' input calm, or at least calmer. That meant, for our child, less talk, no questions in the heat of the moment, and a parent nearby at all times. Maybe touching, maybe not if it felt overstimulating to the child. No trying reason, no asking why, or what are feeling, why are you doing this?". That part comes later, after the meltdown, but even then kids don't always know why they do certain things, and certainly little ones often have a more difficult time articulating inner turmoil. They don't feel right, but they don't know how or why that is. It's not a question a lot of chiclren can even begin to answer.

We can't always change our children's reactions to events, but we can change our reactions to these meltdowns. Being a rock as best you can is often very helpful to some children.

Also, reassuring him that the emotions and the 'bunched up' feelings will subside and he will feel himself again was very helpful for our child. "You feel upset right now, and that can be scary, but your body will calm down soon. You will be ok". Maybe a child can't hear this during the distress, but it's something they can hear later. "You felt so upset, but now it's ok. Your body is relaxed now. Your body can take care of you". etc.


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## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
alley cat, with our dd's aggression and name-calling we found that we needed to help her improve the skills of identifying her emotions and physical state, communicating her emotions and needs/concerns, and coping with uncomfortable emotions.

Initially, we'd sit down with her and talk about other things she can do when she's angry. We'd come up with a solution that sounded realistic and that she'd agree to, but the next time she got mad she'd be aggressive again. We'd also try to mediate Plan B between the kids when things got heated, but still we had a problem with aggression. We thought this might be an issue that Plan B just wouldn't work for. Eventually we figured out that we needed to be a lot *more* proactive than that: she really needed us to be helping her throughout the day every day identify her emotions, identify her concerns and needs (inluding things like I'm tired or hungry), learn coping skills, and learn better communication and problem-solving skills. This was something we had to start doing when things were good, not just in the heat of the moment. When she was aggressive (*better yet, when she was showing signs of nearing that point but not actually there yet), we'd have her leave the situation and sit until she was calm (taking space, chilling out, calming down so she could solve the problem--with some empathy/reflective listening from a parent, which helped her put those feelings into words). So for us Plan B for aggression really boiled down to: dd's concern (though she couldn't put it in words) was that she didn't have the skills to handle anger (or frustration or anxiety or irritability) more adaptively (and has difficulty regulating her emotions, which is part of handling them adaptively), our concern was that we needed her to be more safe in handling anger, etc., the solution was to find new, more effective ways of helping her learn the skills she needed.

There are a couple of books we liked, which helped us with ideas for helping dd learn skills: _Raising A Thinking Child_ has a lot of ideas about helping kids learn the communication, perspective-taking (empathy), and problem-solving skills they need to resolve conflicts with others (including things like evaluating how someone might feel if you say or do [x], learning to brainstorm, identifying feelings). _What To Do When Your Temper Flares_ is a book for kids (with adult help) about managing anger which inludes good information about anger, how to recognize it, how to defuse it and prevent it from getting out of control (taking breaks to calm down, keeping yourself calm), how to safely release anger, problem-solving, recognizing triggers, and "growing a fuse." This book is great because even if it seems a little advanced for a 6 year old, it's easy to read it as a parent and adapt it to help your child learn these things.

Thank you for your reply and your advice. Also I will see if I can get those books out of the library.









My son really has me stumped a lot of the time on how to react to him. This morning his shoe was not put on properly and he was walking funny through the school gate and I was offering to help him, you would think I was trying to torture him from the massive reaction. I finally had to leave him with his shoe still hanging on funny as he did not want my help and was pushing me and getting really angry at me in the locker room , I am sure his teacher could see his antics and I was starting to feel really embarassed.








I think he gets embarrassed by my presence these days as I am not even allowed to kiss him goodbye anymore I have to wave goodbye, gee he is still only 5.







His 7 year old sister gives me a big hug and kiss goodbye , oh well I shouldn't compare.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

alley_cat, You might want to try social stories too. You can also make one yourself. I'm not very creative, but if I can figure out the content and the picture I want, I can have my MIL help me as she's really creative and writes kids stories all the time. Maybe I'll get her to publish it since there's not many good anger management books for small kids.

I'm looking at getting:

It's Hard to Be 5

Hands are Not for Hitting

When I Feel Angry and other Way I Feel series

Words are Not for Hurting

Today I Feel Silly - This would be for teaching about other emtions, but I want something that teaches him how to handle these emotions, and from reading the reviews it might not be what I'm looking for.

Also, I've heard from many people that 6-7yo is a hard stage too. Maybe your DS is starting a little young. My friend's son who just turned 6 all the sudden started becoming real mean to her little sister and being very mouthy.

I also recently learned about PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Streptococcus). Here are some links:

A mom's experience with her DD: http://gfcfblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/pandas.html
http://www.adhd.com.au/PANDAS.htm and http://cbtny.com/pandas
http://www.enzymestory.com/PANDAS.html
http://www.webpediatrics.com/pandas.html
http://www.cidpusa.org/PANDAS.htm
http://intramural.nimh.nih.gov/pdn/web.htm
https://www.neurorelief.com/index.ph...=379&Itemid=73


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## alley cat (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
alley_cat, You might want to try social stories too. You can also make one yourself. I'm not very creative, but if I can figure out the content and the picture I want, I can have my MIL help me as she's really creative and writes kids stories all the time. Maybe I'll get her to publish it since there's not many good anger management books for small kids.

I'm looking at getting:

It's Hard to Be 5

Hands are Not for Hitting

When I Feel Angry and other Way I Feel series

Words are Not for Hurting

Today I Feel Silly - This would be for teaching about other emtions, but I want something that teaches him how to handle these emotions, and from reading the reviews it might not be what I'm looking for.

Also, I've heard from many people that 6-7yo is a hard stage too. Maybe your DS is starting a little young. My friend's son who just turned 6 all the sudden started becoming real mean to her little sister and being very mouthy.

I also recently learned about PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Streptococcus). Here are some links:

A mom's experience with her DD: http://gfcfblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/pandas.html
http://www.adhd.com.au/PANDAS.htm and http://cbtny.com/pandas
http://www.enzymestory.com/PANDAS.html
http://www.webpediatrics.com/pandas.html
http://www.cidpusa.org/PANDAS.htm
http://intramural.nimh.nih.gov/pdn/web.htm
https://www.neurorelief.com/index.ph...=379&Itemid=73

Thank you for that.


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

subbing, will read later.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pam_and_Abigail* 
subbing, will read later.

I need to reconnect with you guys too. DS has been much better since we are trying to use empathy much more but he still has a really tough time dealing with things when he is tired. He got really angry at me the other day because I wouldn't take away something of his that was special from his sister. He was still angry even after we worked together to get it back verbally. He thought I should have just taken it from her.

Thanks for the links FluffiB. I hope to check them out more later.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

My 4yo has been better too, but we're still not able to do the problem-solving thing too well, so we're still doing the picking the battles thing.

He's soooo persistent when it comes to what he wants (i.e. junk food for dinner). Our social worker says not to engage him and to endure the meltdowns. Uggg....

I've been doing a lot of reading and research (more yahoo groups) to address his behavior from a different angle. I know we don't have the perfect diet, so I'm sure candida (yeast overgrowth) has something to do with it. It sure did with me - I was irritable all the time, so I started taking anti-yeast supplements, and within a day I was calm and not so anxious. So I started giving DS probiotics as well as Omega 3, cutting down on dairy (seems to help a lot - I just need to keep a food diary), and cutting out processed foods.

I'm reading a book called Healing the New Childhood Epidemics: Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies. OMG, what an eye opener!!!!! I highly recommend this book to anyone, even adults, who suffer from any of these 4-As. Even if your child doesn't have the ADHD label but has similar symptoms, you should read it. And causes of asthma and allergies are very closely related. It's an amazing book. It makes sense why so many kids have these disorders now compared to 15 years ago.


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

since Addy has been going to OT for SID her explosiveness is WAY less. when its easier for her to cope with her sensory stuff, then she isnt constantly on edge and isnt blowing up at seemingly small things.
i am always looking for new additions to her sensory diet to help fulfill her sensory needs.
in the upcoming sessions we will be learning the "how my engine runs" theory, and learn how to help her express her needs better.
seriously OT has been a lifesaver to us.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
I need to reconnect with you guys too. DS has been much better since we are trying to use empathy much more but he still has a really tough time dealing with things when he is tired. He got really angry at me the other day because I wouldn't take away something of his that was special from his sister. He was still angry even after we worked together to get it back verbally. He thought I should have just taken it from her.

Thanks for the links FluffiB. I hope to check them out more later.


si, DS is s demon when tired in the evening. it starts about 5 PM and then just deteriorates from there. a friend was watching him the other day and DH went to get him about 5:30 and she said "you were right, it's like someone throws a switch with him. one minute he is fine, the next nothing is fine." yup.

evenings are still the hardest around here.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleepyMamaBear* 
seriously OT has been a lifesaver to us.

Mine actually just graduated from 6 mths of OT. Our OT said yes, his issues are sometimes sensory-related, but most of them are behavioral. She does behavioral OT too, so she worked w/ him for a few months. He did so well for her that she couldn't get him to get mad or anything. It came to a point where she couldn't help him anymore, so we decided to stop.

I know it's completely normal for kids to behave well when under someone else's care. And I know it has to do with kids being comfortable with their own parents, but part of me thinks it IS me and that I should be firm and say "no" more often. I guess I'll try to let go of the bad stuff and praise him for the good.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
Mine actually just graduated from 6 mths of OT. Our OT said yes, his issues are sometimes sensory-related, but most of them are behavioral. She does behavioral OT too, so she worked w/ him for a few months. He did so well for her that she couldn't get him to get mad or anything. It came to a point where she couldn't help him anymore, so we decided to stop.

I know it's completely normal for kids to behave well when under someone else's care. And I know it has to do with kids being comfortable with their own parents, but part of me thinks it IS me and that I should be firm and say "no" more often. I guess I'll try to let go of the bad stuff and praise him for the good.

that's interesting. my OT (a sensory specialist) said there is no possible way to separate disorder from behavior. they are one and the same and apparently she just went to conference in new england on this very topic. the consensus is that the disorder (and it's needs) drives the behavior (the behavior expresses the disorder) and so they need to be viewed and treated as the very same thing.

i wonder how your OT thinks she can tell them apart?


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Interesting! She is an OT/D (a doctor) so I assumed she knew her stuff, but there's always new things coming up like you mentioned.

His sensory issue is mainly tactile and a bit of proprioceptive and auditory, but I don't think they're any worse than regular kids and adults who are a bit clumsy or doesn't like loud or busy backgroud noises. I have the same exact issues as he does, and I was recently diagnosed as ADHD inattentive type (I'm beginning to doubt this Dx after reading the book I mentioned). I do think it's part of his personality, or that his executive functions still haven't developed enough.

And a lot has to do with how hungry he is, so I really have to be strict on cutting out junk food that causes blood sugar roller coaster (same with me too).

This morning could've been really ugly, but we managed to not blow up or trash the house. I just have to be with him when he's mad so I can guide him to calming down without destroying anything. I reminded him the things he can do to calm down, and although it took him a while, he did it!


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 

And a lot has to do with how hungry he is, so I really have to be strict on cutting out junk food that causes blood sugar roller coaster (same with me too).

This morning could've been really ugly, but we managed to not blow up or trash the house. I just have to be with him when he's mad so I can guide him to calming down without destroying anything. I reminded him the things he can do to calm down, and although it took him a while, he did it!

Yeah, for sucessful strategies!!!!


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

DS has had multiple major meltdowns in the last week.







What do you do when you DC has a meltdown? I am not sure why the backside but he was clearly very hungry at least 2x. Last night he was running around outside in the pitch black without supervision. DH dragged him inside and he started kicking, hitting, screaming, and scratching. I just kept saying a calm voice, "It is not ok to hit," and "I won't let you hurt me" as I deflected his blows. I encouraged him to vent his anger with yelling. Finally he calmed down with a story told about the situation with kitty puppets and chocolate sorbet. This was one of the more violent outbursts. Any other ideas or examples of what you do.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

Wow! Thanks for resurrecting this thread. This describes my son perfectly. Now I have a new vocabulary term to help me find more information.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
DS has had multiple major meltdowns in the last week.







What do you do when you DC has a meltdown? I am not sure why the backside but he was clearly very hungry at least 2x. Last night he was running around outside in the pitch black without supervision. DH dragged him inside and he started kicking, hitting, screaming, and scratching. I just kept saying a calm voice, "It is not ok to hit," and "I won't let you hurt me" as I deflected his blows. I encouraged him to vent his anger with yelling. Finally he calmed down with a story told about the situation with kitty puppets and chocolate sorbet. This was one of the more violent outbursts. Any other ideas or examples of what you do.

I find it is not a good idea to try to interact with my son during an outburst. If I try to hug him, reason with him, instruct him on how to be kind, or change the subject, I will make it worse.

I've created a special spot for him to be while he calms down. The first few times I had to insist that he remain there until he was calm (by placing him back there each time he tried to leave--I realize this strategy will not jive with some mamas here, but mine has some special needs and this was right for him). Now he will even go there himself until he is ready to speak and listen without anger. Believe me, he sounds horrid while he is in there, but gradually his outbursts have decreased in length. It used to take him 20-30 minutes to calm down. Now he is often finished in 30 seconds!

This may not be what your child needs, but it's an idea anyhow. I hope you have good luck figuring out what works for your family!


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

My 4yo's social worker has been doing play therapy with him, and it's helping a lot. I don't know what she does, but I assume she uses figurines or something to act out situations. So I use his favorite stuffed animals to do act out what his animal does when she gets mad. And when he does get mad I remind him about what the animal does to calm down. Once he's trying to calm down, I try to distract him by talking about something else.

We can't interact when he blows up either. He's completely incoherent.

Another thing that's helping here is giving anti-fungal supplements for possible yeast overgrowth, as well as other supplements. Yeast overgrowth caused my irritability and explosiveness in me. It was also causing my blood sugar problems - when I got hungry my blood sugar plumeted (yeast needs sugar to live, so when the immediate sugar was no longer available it would take it from wherever it can). My ADD diagnosis was all wrong - it was all yeast overgrowth!

I'm giving him good vitamins, whole food supplements, extra vitamin C, cal/mag combo, and probiotics. For anti-fungal, I give him a 1/4 tablet of Grapefruit Seed Extract first thing in the morning at least 2 hours away from the other supplements. I'm going to increase it to twice a day and try it for 2 weeks or so. It's only been 4 days on GSE, but it has really helped with his mood swings! And he hasn't been too bad when he gets hungry.

Extra vitamin C is for immune system and sugar cravings. When you have yeast, you crave carbs because that's what yeast feeds on. Vitamin C is similar to sugar molecularly, so they fight each other upon enter cells. If there's more sugar around, Vitamin C loses and vice versa. This somehow reduces sugar cravings (it does for me!). Vitamin C with rose hips is easier to absorb than just C alone.

ETA: I should've added that I'm giving him all these supplements because he doesn't eat veggies, we haven't gone all organic yet, and I'm trying to cut down his dairy intake (he was never a huge dairy fan anyway). He also catches every little cold that goes around. I actually started taking a really good whole food supplement, and I feel like a whole new person! I felt like I was coming down with a cold, and that was the end of it. I've never felt this good, ever!


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

My dd is very explosive. We have a dx of ODD. We're trying to get some support right now. I'm also trying to find the time to read Dr. Greene's book 'Treating Explosive Kids'. Thanks to the PP who talked about not being able to connect the outbursts to a problem to be solved, as this is something I've been trying to figure out lately.

DD is back in public school for now, on a special every-other-day schedule. We may return to homeschooling.


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Mom of a highly inflexible 8 y/o dd here.

Thanks for all the posts, I need to reread the book. It did well to describe my dd.

What resonates with me here is that she possibly does not recognize the emotions and feeling she is experiencing. I lack the skill of teaching recognition of feelings...I feel I dont communicate such things very well to her.

The hardest part for us is that she is hardest on herself. Negative self talk. When I do attempt to work things out with her she automatically takes it as an insult against her no matter how positive a spin I put on it.

"You don't like me"
"I am stupid"
"That is just who I am, why do you want to change me"

I need to re read.

thanks for the revisit.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

:
subbing


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## Pippi (Dec 21, 2004)

subbing!


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

This is my son.

I like how they explain that learning how to deal with frustration is like any other milestone a child has to learn (like sitting up, crawling, walking, etc) and that children reach this point at different rates - and that those with other added issues (ASD/ODD/ADHD/etc) might need extra help with this.

I will have to read through this post at some point. The book was recently given to me by a friend in our home ed group who thought I could use it - she said it was very helpful for her and her some who has aspergers.

Though no official dx - my son has SPD and I suspect an ASD such as pdd-nos. The cause of a lot of his 'agressions' I know are because he can not process things like other children his age. He had not reached that milestone yet. And also, things 'hinder' it - such as being easily overwhelemed by crowds of people (twos a crowd for him! lol), loud noises, perfectionism in him (possible OCD - I have it - dx at 10 - so I wouldnt be surprised), etc.

What I hate and what bothers me the most ...and I know its my issue to deal with but it does leave me in tears at time - is the narrowminded ignorant society in which we live in. 'Nothing' is wrong with DS - he is just 'naughty' and 'manipulative' and I am just a 'permissive' parent who must have her hands full. Its funny because these same people will comment on how well 'behaved' DS is and how he must have just been born 'easy' when he is having a 'good day' (ie - not overwhelemed by the world he lives in). Sigh...


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Ann - does he receive occupational therapy? This has helped my son with SPD. His tactile defensiveness lessened, his anxiety level is almost non-existent now, and he is generally a lot happier. He graduated after 6 months of going weekly for an hour.

Did he ever receive vaccinations with thimerosal (mercury)? It's actually not just mercury in the vax anymore - it's aluminum too that's neurotoxic. Toxins are also found in the air, water, etc. If you live near an industrial city like NJ, it could be due to arsenic. Fire-retardant chemicals in kids mattresses and clothes are antimony. You might find her site helpful to read:

http://www.danasview.net/

A few supplements might help too depending on his symptoms. Yeast overgrowth is a huge one since mercury interferes with your body's own ability to control yeast.

http://www.danasview.net/yeast.htm

Just deyeasting myself has eliminated most of my irritability and ADD symptoms (yes, I was officially diagnosed not too long ago).

It might also help if he does GFCF diet or take digestive enzymes.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gfcfkids/

http://www.enzymestuff.com/

Eliminating artificial flavorings, colorings, hydrogenated fats (trans fats), and going organic is also helpful as the body will think these processed and artificial foods and chemicals are all toxic.

De-yeasting, going GFCF or taking enzymes, and eliminating processed foods have been shown to produce a lot of improvement.

It's a lot of info to take in. Oh, a really excellent book is Healing the New Childhood Epidemics: Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies. It's a biomedical approach to curing autism and the other 4-As. Yes, I have read a lot of people's testimonials that after they chelate heavy metals from their bodies, asthma and allergies disappeared too!

If you're really interested in learning more, join this yahoo group:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

He does not get OT no (with no offical DX he wont - but this is something we are reassesing ourselves every year beause if I feel that getting a DX will help him, then we will go that painful route) - but we do do OT type things in our house. He is 'overly sensitive' to things - so its sometimes hard to try and thing of things to do with him as a lot of the OT stuff I have looked up in doing in your own home is/seems geared more towards those who are sensory seeking. But I have got myself books such as 'the out of sync child' etc (to help me come up with ideas of things to do in our own home) - and I do notice they help like the bach flower remedies do.

He recieved the first vaccinations. I do not know what was in them. I was ignorant as much of the population at that time. It was only when about 12 hours later after the vaccination when he started crying unconsolably for hours as he never has before in a high shrill sound like I have never heard from _any_ baby before that I researched more into vaccines and we stopped vaccinating all together. I have been looking into using a homeopathic remedy for this. I swear to this day it was that vaccine that has made him the way he is - at least 'helped' to create him the way he is.

He doesn't eat 'crap' lol...I have not looked into supplements though. I have been giving that some thought. We also live out in the country (in England).

I have to say though, I am not sure I believe that you can 'cure' autism.


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## Pippi (Dec 21, 2004)

I actually read another of his books first, Lost At School, and am just starting The Explosive Child. This one is much more applicable to us since we homeschool but Lost At School is good too.

An interesting thing I find (among lots of interesting things!) is that he is also talking here about not just explosive children, but those who are _implosive_ as well, "those whose inflexibility and poor tolerance for frustration cause them to shut down and withdraw." My oldest son does a bit of both, but as an introvert he does more of the latter.
Anyhow, I am finding the book very relevant and a lot of it reminds me of some tools my own parents could certainly have used too.

I'd love to write more but can't right now - thought had a moment but clearly I don't. As long as I don't explode too we'll be fine!


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
I have to say though, I am not sure I believe that you can 'cure' autism.

Dana has I believe 4 kids that she chelated and are all fine now. She even wrote a story that one of her kids was severely autistic that the doctor told her there is no chance that he will recognize his own mom and that she might as well put him in an institution. I don't know how many rounds of chelation it took, but he no longer has autistic symptoms.

The 4-As disorder book also has many stories of kids who have made a major turnaround.

The word "cure" is really just the word I chose to use because of lack of better words. Autism is really just a name for a collection of symptoms (just like ADHD, fibromyalgia, anxiety, depression, allergies, etc are). So by eliminating the symptoms by finding the cause and fixing it, you have "cured" the disorder. I should've said "eliminate autistic symptoms" instead of "cure" as "cure" is harder to believe for most people.

You can even google about Jenny McCarthy's son - he received biomedical treatments for his autism and is fine now. It's powerful stuff.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i believe mercury poisoning and autism are different things, though they can look very similar. one can be treated, one is how a person is hard wired.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

Hi Mamas, I just wanted to chime in. DS almost 3 fits this category, and the excerpts I have read from the book make me want to cry. He recently tantrumed and cried til he was about to puke because I switched to my winter coat. Even as a small toddler he cried/tantrumed for an hour about turning out the light....chronically inflexible and low tolerance for frustration are a great description.

He is SPD, no vax at all, and he receives OT but it is not helping. The OT doesn't seem to really "get it"

We had a rough day today, he has trouble falling asleep, and today at naptime, tired as he was, he could not fall asleep and when I tried to hold him in my arms to help him "stop" which usually helps even though he cries, but today he started scratching my face and slapping and kicking me. It's horrible to admit, I feel so embarassed, like I am ineffectual at GDing him. Plus I hate being hit and was hit alot myself as a kid so it triggers me. I am doing well at staying calm, but am unsure how to set good boundaries, take care of myself in situations like that.

I usually say something like "I hear that you are really angry and I am listening to you but I have to be safe so I am moving over here" Today he had a meltdown because I took a 8" kitchen knife out of his hand. While he was tantrumming, I had a "validation breakthrough". Instead of naming his feelings, I said, with true enthusiasm, "Oh, I get it, you were really so excited to come and help me in the kitchen, and as soon as you got up on your stool and started to help, I took that knife away from you". He stopped in his tracks and looked at me with sincere relief. It didn't stop the tantrum totally, but he wound down from there. I offered options "Lets go buy the tomatoes I need and we can cut them together with the big knife." but he didn't want to. he eventually settled for nursing and reading in the "reading corner"

Support from other mama's with similar kids would be great. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pitchfork* 
It's horrible to admit, I feel so embarassed, like I am ineffectual at GDing him. Plus I hate being hit and was hit alot myself as a kid so it triggers me. I am doing well at staying calm, but am unsure how to set good boundaries, take care of myself in situations like that.

I think the ineffectual thing was the reason I started this thread. I really feel like GD is not working sometimes. I have been looking into ADD and many of the counseling places or Drs. talk about reward systems and punishment. I haven't found anyone doing the Collaborative Problem solving locally yet but I don't have the connections or resources I need yet.

DH talked to his teacher today and he will probably quit that preschool soon. Hopefully, he will have Early Education assessment soon but I know the wheels turn slowly. I really wouldn't persue this if I could afford to either stay home or send him to a school with very small classroom. I am also hoping it will connect me to good resources in the community.

I need to work really hard on the boundaries. I really don't do well with the anger. I need to remember that most of the time DS really doesn't have the control he needs. In the evenings, he really, is not thinking well at all.


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

So here's a question - do AP/UP (Unconditional Parenting) styles even work with explosive kids, or do they *need* a system of rewards and punishments, since the inherent, natural consequences don't seem to affect them?

Ann, that *is* annoying - if a child can be born with an easygoing temperament, then the can be born with the opposite!

DH had some success last night, using humour (I guess kinda like Playful Parenting, though we haven't read that book) - dd was having a fit, the kind that usually escalate, and she was telling him to "shoo! shoo!" while throwing stuff, and she had a sock in her hand. He replied, "Shoe? That's not a shoe, that's a sock!" and she started to giggle and it didn't escalate.

I have another question: sometimes when she won't obey our timeouts we end up carrying her to another room. She's 6. She's tall. Eventually this won't work, heck, it really doens't work now. It seems, according to AP ideals, disresepctful to carry her body, but I don't know how else to remove her, for the safety of everyone else.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
I think the ineffectual thing was the reason I started this thread. I really feel like GD is not working sometimes.

what does this mean "working?"

discipline means to teach or guide. many people use the word discipline to mean "control" "change behavior" "force to obey" or "punish."

what does it mean to guide a child versus "control" or "change behavior?"

for me, GD is about connecting with my child and fostering relationship. it is NOT about controlling or changing behavior.

if i am in relationship with a friend or family member and he/she doesn't act the way i want... do i say "this friendship stuff! it's just not working!"

what is my goal as a parent? the goal of GD (RU/CL in my case) is to honor, respect and guide my child in a way that allows his/her authentic self to emerge. even if i don't always care for his/her behavior.

with explosive children it's helpful to always remember, he/she didn't choose to be this way, he/she struggles with just about everything, and loving guidance and modeling go way further than punishments and control in helping them to cope.


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## um_hanna (Nov 3, 2004)

subbing














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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Pitchfork - I belong to several yahoo groups regarding other topics (mainly autism and mercury/heavy metal toxicity), and someone said vitamin B6 really helped her DD become more calm. She sounded just like my DS - he would kick, scream, hit, pinch, etc at bedtime. I do have my DS on multi-vitamins and calcium (we're trying to eliminate dairy), and a little bit of magnesium and vitamin C, and he has been a lot more calm lately.

It would very well be food intolerant. If you're not getting anywhere you can try eliminating all forms of dairy for about 2-3 weeks to see if anything changes. Then gluten, but it can take up to several months for all the glutein to leave the body, so you may not see results right away with this.

Do you belong to any SPD yahoo groups? This is the one I'm on. There are people that report OT isn't doing much. It sounds like in your case it's your OT. Or it's really dietary issue that is the underlying cause.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SID-DSI_AllAboutKids/

I do have to warn you that you might get advices on how to "discipline" your child, meaning changing his behavior by punishment and rewards (these never worked with my DS). So ignore those posts!

GL - my DS is almost 4.5, and as long as I keep him well-fed, he's mostly really good these days!


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 
what does this mean "working?"


I guess I mean it is really hard! I feel like with DD GD guidance is much easier and guidance is not so phsyically painful and dangerous. DS will leave the house with the dog at 730 pm and walk down the street in the pitch black. We do not live in a nice neighborhood. He is 4.5 yr. This is just not safe. He does not respond to gentle redirection (finding something else to do), safety concerns ("Nobody will take me mama, I'll be alright."), physical redirection (he hits, kicks). Now I know that I can do collabortive problem solving but sometime he still is not ready to go inside after his agreed time is up. I feel like the GD stuff is great for most kids and cooperation comes much more easily. I think this thread is to help support how challenging it is for the parents of explosive children.

Last night DS was going to bed with DH and DD was going to bed with me. DD wanted to "watch" I was sick and just wanted to go to sleep. DS said, "I have an idea. Maybe you can find something in the middle. Why don't you watch first and then go to bed." DD was still crying when he went down stairs. As he left, he said, "You be sure and find something in the middle."

I refuse to believe that I need to do rewards and punishments with DS. Like the authors of the "Exploxive Child" I think, like you Honeybee, if they could cooperate and not get angry they would and they need teaching and training to work on this. I am in the middle of the video and it has been really good.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FluffiB* 
I do have to warn you that you might get advices on how to "discipline" your child, meaning changing his behavior by punishment and rewards (these never worked with my DS). So ignore those posts!

GL - my DS is almost 4.5, and as long as I keep him well-fed, he's mostly really good these days!

Food and rest work really well with my DS but like today DD woke him up too early.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
I refuse to believe that I need to do rewards and punishments with DS. Like the authors of the "Exploxive Child" I think, like you Honeybee, if they could cooperate and not get angry they would and they need teaching and training to work on this. I am in the middle of the video and it has been really good.

it is really hard! being a parent of SPD/explosive child is really really hard, esp. if you refuse to give into mainstream notions of parenting. imagine though how hard it must be on the other end. no one ever said parenting was easy, esp. good parenting. crappy parenting is pretty easy.

i believe because my DS struggles with so much, that he *deserves* MORE compassion, MORE patience, MORE commitment to consensual solutions, MORE unconditional parenting... not less. NEVER less.

but it is really really hard to find the joy some days. it helps when i just work on accepting him for exactly who he is, even when he does drive me bonkers, hits his father, screams at the baby and is his generally uncooperative, touchy, moody self.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

wanted to share this blog post... it's about responding with joy even when your kids are acting in ways that are not very joyous.

http://perpetualjoy.blogspot.com/200...osing-joy.html

while it's primarily about not using please and thank you, but i think the spirit of it applies here. it's been bumping around inside me for a few days now. it says a lot.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

Fluffib, I have tried magnesium, the liquid highly absorbable kind, no change at all. maybe this helps more with the mercury kids? I could try C, vit b6, how do you get that into a recalcitrant 2YO?

he was on no dairy a large part of his life when he was having these problems, and only has a small amount of sheep/goat dairy now. As for GF, I could give it a try, but he was EBF until 13 mos and exhibiting the same behaviors. Can they get gluten through the breastmilk? He is still nursing, do I have to go GF and dairy free too? DH is GF, so our household is often GF for stretches, that might not be so hard to try...and I guess the family history is a clue...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InochiZo* 
He does not respond to gentle redirection (finding something else to do), safety concerns ("Nobody will take me mama, I'll be alright."), physical redirection (he hits, kicks). Now I know that I can do collabortive problem solving but sometime he still is not ready to go inside after his agreed time is up. I feel like the GD stuff is great for most kids and cooperation comes much more easily. I think this thread is to help support how challenging it is for the parents of explosive children.

This is totally my son! GD is so much harder with these kids, even though I can't imagine anything else is any easier. I am thinking long term here, I mean, I want to raise a child with problem solving skills, (like your DS Zoe! how cute!) and the ability to self regulate. Today when I told him the sound of him scratching his stick against the wall was bothering me (yes, I'm a bit sensory too) he said "Well, I need to do it and you don't like it, how can we work this out?" I suggested I go in the other room, he said no, I suggested he stop, he said no, I suggested I just listen to it, and I said no, then I suggested I sing while he do it, and he liked that. Soon he said he would sing for me while he did it and it a minute he stopped scratching anyway. At this point I give all the suggestions, but I think him asking the question is still great. He said it to my mother about something over the holiday weekend, and she almost fell off her chair! These are the good moments. A two year old who says "how can we work this out?"

Sometimes I worry that all the negotiating is just counterproductive. All my non SPD parents who UP, GD can use these skills and get their needs met on a regular basis. I have had DS tantrum because I had to stop playing to eat breakfast, as soon as we got through the tantrum and I started to get myself breakfast he started all over. This is with all kinds of problems solving in between, come and help me make b'fast, read book first, etc. etc. So some days (this is not infrequent) I have to go through multiple tantrums just to get food, a basic need...

I am going to give the supplements and diet changes a good think, and also changing OTs. DS was evaluated for CPSE (committee for preschool education) and she said his sensory issues were clearly evident. Perhaps it's time to request changing OTs.


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## loveandmore (Oct 24, 2008)

This is DS too. To get him to leave the house.


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

Pitchfork - yes, you do have to change your diet too as food proteins will show up in breast milk too. I had to do a strict elimination diet when I was BFing my DS as I had no clue what he was allergic to!

Even goat's milk and such have very similar proteins to cow's milk, so you might have to go completely milk-free and use (fortified) rice milk instead. I don't recommend soy because half of kids allergic to milk are allergic to soy. And too much soy is really bad for hormones.

You can get kid-friendly supplements (hard to find) or get adult forms in capsules and sprinkle the proper dosage into cool foods (apple and pear sauces work great). I've crushed pills, added juice, and used a medicine dropper to squirt it into DS's mouth too.

kirkmanlabs.com has good variety of supplements in various forms, and they don't add too much fillers. Or you could go to vitacost.com and pick ones with the least fillers. Since he's still BF, I'm sure he's getting a lot of nutrients from you. But some vitamins are hard to digest in the body, so some people might need to supplement.

If you try vitamin C, try "ascorbic acid with rose hips" or buffered C. I'm not sure which B6 form is easily digested, so you might want to research that. I usually look up the RDA of a vitamin/mineral for an appropriate age group and also look up what's optimal as the RDA is a bare minimum that your body needs in order to not become deficient. And I look up food sources too.

I like this site because it lists everything I need except for optimal dose.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...rient&dbid=108

You could always try digestive enzymes too, but that's another post!


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

I haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread yet, but I really think this might describe my DD2. She's 3.5, has been showing some signs of sensory issues (I have many, so that doesn't surprise me) and what little I have read in here sounds like you all have been hanging out with DD everyday.


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## Bethblas (Dec 2, 2008)

This thread is awesome. Thanks for all the suggestions. I have the book on hold at the library and I can't wait to read it.


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## Deaner (Feb 7, 2009)

. I actually am just beginning to digest all of the information I have been collecting while trying to find some answers to two of my four daughter's struggles of self-control.. I am beginning to lean toward a diagnosis of Chronically Inflexible child for one or both of them. My 16 year old definitely has the explosive aspect of CI along with the inflexibility.. I am feeling guilty because I am well educated in the field and have worked with children with developmental disabilities, especially autism and never connected that my own children may be struggling with these types of disorders.. Some of the techniques I had been taught to modify behavior were actually harmful when applied to my daughters condition...I feel like I am back to square one and WAY behind the eight-ball...I am looking forward to reading "The Explosive Child" book. Since this is all so fresh I would appreciate any thoughts or encouragement I can get!


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## FluffiB (May 21, 2005)

I forgot about this thread. Thanks for posting!

An update on my explosive 4yo. We de-yeasted which made his explosiveness pretty much a thing of the past (as long as he was fed well). But the yeast came back in a month and so did his behavioral problems.

Biotin in high doses is said to prevent yeast cells from taking on a more harmful fungus form, so we started that, and I switched his antifungal to Candex, just 1/4 capsule on an empty stomach. Within a day he was so calm and pleasant to be around.

Another thing we're working on is controlling his blood sugar. I just found out I'm deficient in chromium, and I have reactive hypoglycemia, so started supplementing. He's also a bit deficient, so I started supplementing also. He is so out of control when his blood sugar is low, and it's hard to get him to eat protein, and he sometimes refuses to eat, which makes it really hard. Hopefully chromium will help that.

All this info I got from various yahoo groups including autism groups. I had a hair analysis test done, and he was high in arsenic and mercury. We made diet changes (no more seafood) as well as some other changes, and he seemed to have flourished since then.

I've also been receiving NAET treatments (allergy elimination). I had my 4yo start on it too, except my practitioner just got BioAllergenix machine that performs treatments a lot faster. He just got treated for milk yesterday, and he was a soooo compliant last night. He even fell asleep while I was reading to him, which he has never done before. Yes, sleep is one of the biggest challenges here.

I know a lot of autistic and kids w/ mild autistic symptoms like SPD and ADHD do well on GFCF diet. I've always suspected my 4yo had milk sensitivity as he was allergic to milk as an infant. He outgrew the obvious allergy at 2, but I've heard over and over sensitivities can cause behavioral problems.


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

Subbing!

Could anyone take a look at my thread about explosive ds and dp, in PaP? Please.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

we are having a very interesting conversation on the yahoo consensual living list about diagnosis and oppositional defiance disorder.


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## MayLibertySprout (Jul 17, 2007)

Hi.
Has anyone heard of, read, and/or used the "Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child" by Alan E. Kazdin ?

We are using it with my sons new therapist, whom I liked immediatly (and we've been through a lot!).
I really haven't had a chance to more than skim it. It comes with a DVD too, which she said is only about 20min and gives the basics. You'd think I would have had time to watch that at least! Not yet...anyway she did give me the basics of it. Basically it is about commiting to positively reiforceing the behaviour you want. We have just been loosely useing it for about a week and I swear it is having the best effect on my son than anything I've ever tried!! (and I have read the book and went to a "The Explosive Child" workshop too-years ago)

I would really like tho know if anyone else has experience with this method...and so far I highly recommend it too...like I said I haven't really even read it, but so far so good!








It definitley fits GD!

( just FYI DS 11, has been diagnosed with HFA,ADHD,ODD,and has XYYsyndrome.)


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## HeatherRenee (Apr 3, 2009)

This thread is a little old, but I am soooo happy to see it! My middle son has ODD (Oppositional defiant disorder ) and GDing can be so tough some days... I just needed some support and guidence... Some days (bad days) just make me want to pull my hair out. I will be looking into that book... and if anyone has suggestions I am OPEN! LOL... I need as much help and support as possible!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

HeatherRenee, one thing I would suggest is that if you haven't already, it might be helpful to probe a little deeper instead of just accepting a stand-alone ODD diagnosis. ODD is really more of a symptom of other underlying issues. I heard one clinician compare a diagnosis of ODD to a diagnosis of "fever of unknown origin." A fever of unknown origin is still just a symptom, and without knowing what's causing the fever any treatments for the fever are likely to have limited effectiveness. Same with ODD: the diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder describes a cluster of symptoms, and there can be many causes for that cluster of symptoms. The more you know about what else is going on within your child, what factors lead to those symptoms, the more effectively you can help him. Many people recommend a thorough neuropsychological evaluation to help pinpoint areas of difficulty for your child.

My dd received a diagnosis of ODD. She also has Tourette Syndrome, generalized anxiety disorder, and a general difficulty learning social/emotional skills needed for tolerating frustration and being flexible/problem solving (something for which there is no diagnosis)--all of which are what lead to the ODD behavior. The ODD is a symptom of her difficulties. It's the red flag letting us now something is up. When we addressed the other, underlying, things, we saw a huge decrease in the ODD behavior.

_The Explosive Child_ by Ross Greene and _Treating the Explosive Child_ by Ross Greene and Stuart Ablon are great books. There's some great info at www.thinkkids.org. The Foundation for Children with Behavioral Challenges has a nice, but slow, message area and some good information-all related to the approach from The Explosive Child (for now it's at http://www.fcbcsupport.org/ They have merged with ThinkKids, so there will be changes coming up for this site). You may also find some helpful information, and more on the whole issue of ODD as a symptom rather than a disorder in and of itself, at conductdisorders.com.

Above all, take care of yourself so that you can take care of your child. If you ever need it, there's a book called _Raising Troubled Kids_ that talks about how to care for yourself and the rest of your family while caring for your challenging child.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i agree, ODD is a throw away diagnosis that means nothing really.

if a child *is* oppositional .. WHY?? there is always a reason. being oppositional isn't a mental illness. if you understand over responsive SPD, it makes perfect sense that a child is always in opposition to whatever is happening. instead of a made up diagnosis, how about try to understand and meet the child's needs?

i hope i am not being offensive, i just find this Dx a load of crap and it usually comes from the schools and their inability to deal with kids who just won't conform.

there was an excellent discussion on the yahoo CL list a few months ago about this.


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## HeatherRenee (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umami_mommy* 
i agree, ODD is a throw away diagnosis that means nothing really.

if a child *is* oppositional .. WHY?? there is always a reason. being oppositional isn't a mental illness. if you understand over responsive SPD, it makes perfect sense that a child is always in opposition to whatever is happening. instead of a made up diagnosis, how about try to understand and meet the child's needs?

i hope i am not being offensive, i just find this Dx a load of crap and it usually comes from the schools and their inability to deal with kids who just won't conform.

there was an excellent discussion on the yahoo CL list a few months ago about this.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to put my son's whole medical history on here, to get help for one part of it.. And the fact that he is NOT in school, so it is NOT the school just throwing a "condition" at him... *sigh* anyway... Here is his info..

IC is 4 years old with ODD, SPD and ADHD. I was just looking for help on GDing him dealing with his ODD, since that is the part that makes it hard. (Because, as I'm sure your aware, children with ODD have problems with parents or adults who are trying to tell them to do something. Since IC is always messing with both his older and younger brothers, I needed help with Gently letting him know that it is not ok.)


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree that a ODD isn't a very helpful diagnosis-and actually all diagnoses are generalizations that don't necessarily give us enough specific, helpful information about an individual child's functioning and needs (but they can be helpful in giving us a general idea, and pointing us in a general direction when it comes to how to help). I do think that what is called ODD is a cluster of serious symptoms that is important to recognize, though, and that it's important to address those behaviors while addressing the underlying issues (ime, imo). I think many schools lack the resources to effectively deal with troubled kids, definitely, but in my personal experience the Dx came not from school but from a very skilled clinician who helped us a lot (and who said "ODD describes this behavior..., and here's what else is going on, why we're seeing the ODD" not "here's the formula for treating ODD"). Fortunately, more and more clinicians understand that ODD doesn't stand alone. Understanding of children's cognitive and neurological functioning is improving, and that is a good thing.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherRenee* 

IC is 4 years old with ODD, SPD and ADHD. I was just looking for help on GDing him dealing with his ODD, since that is the part that makes it hard. (Because, as I'm sure your aware, children with ODD have problems with parents or adults who are trying to tell them to do something. Since IC is always messing with both his older and younger brothers, I needed help with Gently letting him know that it is not ok.)


You know, I don't think there's necessarily a one-size-fits all approach to these kinds of things. Personally, I really found the collaborative problem solving approach from The Explosive Child to be really helpful in working with my child. We combined that with overt teaching of social and emotional skills, and time out for aggression (which consisted of telling dd to sit in a chair in the same room we were in, until she was calm--which (along with other strategies) helped her learn to calm down, and also kept everyone safe).

One particularly helpful piece from The Explosive Child was the Pathways inventory (http://www.thinkkids.org/core/pathways.aspx) which helped us identify which skills specifically dd needed to work on in order to be less combative, defiant, and aggressive--to be more flexible, to be better able to regulate her emotions, to learn to problem solve, to tolerate frustration. Things like "separation of affect" (staying calm enough, while upset, to communicate and problem solve). Or like, she's a black and white, rigid thinker--and needed to work on learning to be more flexible. Or that she needed to be better at being aware of and communicating her emotions. And so on. It's worth looking at, and I wonder if some of the skills on the inventory overlap with ADHD (I have no idea, just wonder).

Also, special time helped--time that we had one-on-one, which was entirely positive. This helped us build trust and positive connection, which made it easier for dd to cooperate with us and allowed us adults to feel more positive toward her (which honestly, sometimes it's hard to do) which helped us in our interactions with her.

I hope you didn't take my suggestion of identifying other issues as criticism. It was meant to be helpful, as a btdt mom.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magella* 
I hope you didn't take my suggestion of identifying other issues as criticism. It was meant to be helpful, as a btdt mom.


i agree, i wasn't being critical of you as a parent in the least and i think it's great you are here to try and deal gently with your child.


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## brogansmomma (Jan 4, 2006)

Subbing. And I went online to amazon to check out the book and I think I may already have it (albeit unread as yet). I'll have to look when I go downstairs.

I've bookmarked two posts in particular (77 and 104) that I'm interested in finding out more about.

My son is almost 4.5. Last summer we went onto the Feingold diet and on entering Stage Two, did not notice any issues with any of the foods. We are no longer following that diet per se but continue to keep, to the best of my ability, processed foods, artificial colours, artificial flavours, and preservatives out of his diet and system. I have noticed a HUGE difference however there are still frequent behavioural issues. The "wow!" moment for me was late last summer. I was on the fence as to whether or not B himself was "growing out of" his behavioural outbursts or if it was partly food related. One day he got hold of a single Chiclet and within 30 minutes was back to the hitting, charging, kicking, spitting, angry behaviour that had been gone for nearly a week.

Anyway... I don't want to ramble on. Just subbing and very thankful to have re-found this thread.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

So glad to see this thread active, it feels great to hear these discussions. My DS, 3.3 has many of these issues, and I am trying to get to the bottom of what is going on here. We are trying to get someone to REALLY help us figure out what role the sensory issues are playing and how to address them.

In the meantime, I don't know how to teach "separation of affect" to a 3yo, he really likes the collaborative problem solving when he can get to it, but becomes so hysterical (saying he just wants to break things or kick people) and trying to do so, that he can't bring himself to even deal with the problem. The only thing he can do to calm down is to change the subject after he has had a good long while to have the meltdown... Often if I "give in" and fix whatever it is he is wanting, he still can't calm down. DH and I like to say "he can't take yes for an answer" I usually just hold him loosely or sit nearby and tell him I am willing to listen to his feelings (as long as I am safe) and when he is ready we can talk about a plan.

Anyone out there have success with teaching/kids learning "separation of affect"?


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

yeah, the meltdowns can be really monumental. DS had them from 18 months to about 3 years in a tremendous way. very gradually, they became shorter and less intense... but the frustration thing is very real. and the fact is, when my DS gets triggered it takes a *long* time for him to calm down. even if he *seems* calm, he's still in "the zone" and can explode/meltdown very very easily over the smallest thing. mostly at this age it's all about prevention, there isn't a whole lot you can teach them other than through modeling.

and it's impossible to separate sensory issues from personality. each inform the other.


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pitchfork* 
So glad to see this thread active, it feels great to hear these discussions. My DS, 3.3 has many of these issues, and I am trying to get to the bottom of what is going on here. We are trying to get someone to REALLY help us figure out what role the sensory issues are playing and how to address them.

In the meantime, I don't know how to teach "separation of affect" to a 3yo, he really likes the collaborative problem solving when he can get to it, but becomes so hysterical (saying he just wants to break things or kick people) and trying to do so, that he can't bring himself to even deal with the problem. The only thing he can do to calm down is to change the subject after he has had a good long while to have the meltdown... Often if I "give in" and fix whatever it is he is wanting, he still can't calm down. DH and I like to say "he can't take yes for an answer" I usually just hold him loosely or sit nearby and tell him I am willing to listen to his feelings (as long as I am safe) and when he is ready we can talk about a plan.

Anyone out there have success with teaching/kids learning "separation of affect"?

at almost 5 we are still trying to work on separation of affect. seriously.
today was HELL the past month has been hell. made it to OT once, instead of 5 times. missed our behavioral pads appt. i got SICKer, and lil sisis ill too. so many birthdays this month, none of them hers.
for her (and us) life is hell now


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

how about having an "unbirthday" for her? birthdays are so hard in general. i clearly remember announcing more than once when i was little that i was changing my birthday so i wouldn't have to wait so long for it to come around!









i am amazed at how much better DS is when we swim regularly. the heavy work makes all the difference in the world for him. when we don't go, he's crazy. when we do go he is so much calmer. we don't have to go everyday even, just a few times a week.


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

hers is in July
with all the birthdays and parties and cake this month, the very LAST thing we need is another birthday, un or not.
she is included, she gets to help blow out candles, and pass out cake, and even decorate the cakes with my sister. she just cant handle a day dedicated to someone other than her.
plus i am really really sick, and will be for the forseeable future, and her sister has a nasty staph infection in her leg and is demanding one on one attention most of the time.
so she is having a really tough time with life. yesterday was one big day long explosion.
bah!


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

umami mommy, is swimming heavy work? Wow! I didn't know...DS loves going to a spa (







: I know, it's a rare treat, but there's a family friendly one here in NY that is beautiful) and marching around in the chest high water endlessly, it makes sense that moving through that resistance would help, I never put two and two together. He is much calmer afterward.

We need to find a place that has a pool like that for him that doesn't spray water, (and isn't a spa we can't afford on a regular basis!) why is it that kid's pools have to blast the poor kids with spraying water?!?!? DS won't go anywhere near it, it's like being faced with a firehose....








SleepyMamaBear, sounds rough!


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SleepyMamaBear* 
so she is having a really tough time with life. yesterday was one big day long explosion.
bah!

it's so hard for kids like ours sometimes. sometimes my heart just breaks for my DS.... when he struggles mightily with things that are so easy for other children. it's hard sometimes for me to think about trying to meet his needs when he is so demanding and high needs. sometimes i just want to scream SHUT UP!! and lock myself in the bedroom. but then i remind myself he didn't choose to be like this. if it's hard on me, it must be 10 times as hard on him.

sometimes we need a break and need to get away from our kids no matter how much they need us. even if it's for an evening or afternoon. maybe a massage or a walk alone in the park.

i rarely get away from my kids. but it's something i have to do on a regular basis, even if it's just once a month.

i hope things get better for you soon.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pitchfork* 

We need to find a place that has a pool like that for him that doesn't spray water, (and isn't a spa we can't afford on a regular basis!) why is it that kid's pools have to blast the poor kids with spraying water?!?!? DS won't go anywhere near it, it's like being faced with a firehose....

what about a YMCA?... that's where we belong and they give scholarships. the JCC does too.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pitchfork* 
Anyone out there have success with teaching/kids learning "separation of affect"?

I think 3 year olds have limited capability for separation of affect. IME, you definitely can work on it with a 3 year old and help them improve separation of affect, but a 3 year old will still be pretty emotional. Developmental ability plays a big role in separation of affect. Make sure your expectations remain realistic.

Anyway, what we've found helpful in terms of helping ours learn separation of affect is to first begin by helping them learn methods of relaxing. Begin in a pretty calm time, because learning isn't going to happen when they're already very emotional. Practice things like deep breathing, do some muscle relaxation exercises, guided imagery. Try lots of things on and notice what helps your child feel relaxed: physical activity, visualization, breathing exercises, yoga, etc. Talk together about how your dc's body is feeling and what emotions your dc is feeling during these activities. Make a list of some "feel-good" activities, maybe some that are quiet-down activities (like breathing) and some that are physical activities (like running or riding a trike) and some sensory activities (one favorite here was a special "indoor sandbox" only used for relaxing/calming down).

Once you've worked on calming/relaxing in this way, move on to trying out some calm-down activities when your dc is a _little bit_ (not a lot) tense/angry/upset/whatever. This is when I like lists, even picture lists, to let the child choose an activity (but too many things to choose from is overwhelming when upset). I might say something like "we'll talk about it when you've calmed down a little. We can't solve this if you're too upset. Let's help you calm down." Do the calming activity together at first, breathing together or drawing together or whatever. Be calm and encouraging, and give positive feedback when your dc attempts the calm-down activity (maybe right at that moment, maybe a little later after they're calm-whatever your child responds to best).

Importantly, I find that modeling separation of affect myself is a very important piece.

We found that in general, taking notice of and talking about emotions regularly really helps. Notice the happy feelings, the unpleasant ones, they physical states of tired/hungry/etc and how those affect our emotions (I feel cranky when I'm really tired). Talk about these things. Talk about how you, the parent, felt when something frustrating happened (not when you were frustrated with your child) and what you did to stay calm and solve the problem.

Be prepared that this process will take plenty of time and plenty of patience on your part. But your child will learn.


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## pitchfork (May 3, 2005)

Thanks Magella, that's very helpful feedback!


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

how is everyone doing?

i just screamed at DS this morning because he started screaming at me about letting DD share his playdough. we have all been sick with H1N1 and DS has been mean and grumpy and nasty in general to everyone. (even though he was the one who was least sick) we haven't been swimming or playing outside or doing any of the stuff we usually do. i know he's bored and under-active... but this morning i lost it with him because i try so hard to keep thing cool with him and his sister. (and i am sick too)

it's not the way i want to act, but i feel like i have limits he is seriously pushing.

i told if he didn't start treating everyone better he was going to school. i hate threatening him, but sometimes i do wish i could just send him to school and let someone else deal with him.

how do you handle the disrespect/explosions other than modeling and reminding?


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

Wow! I sooooo could have written that post! well, except, we have thus far managed to escape h1n1.
First, I want to say that when I think I'd like to send dd (who's 7) to school again, so someone else has o deal with her, I remember what it was like last year when she was in school - calls home, suspensions, having to pick her up when she had exploded, have the principal call CPS on her after seeing dd hit ds (a baby at the time).... and recalling she's quite a bit more manageable now that she's not at school - that much sitting down and doing worksheets and standing in line made her very foul.

That said, I still do a lot more yelling than I'd like. I don't know if this fits into everyone's idea of GD, but we sometimes use a points chart, to help her remember to act appropriately.

I think once a kid is at a point that they are explosive, you almost have to let it run its course, try to minimize damage, and later bring up any consequences. Like, if you threw a toy at someone, I put that item away for a little while. Not necessarily a natural consequence, but at least logical.

Trying to get them all outside is super-important too. We rent a dance studio from time to time, to give them a nice space to run around in, too.

I try to watch my own grumpies as well, because I am very prone to them as well. And I try to be as nice to my kids as possible, even when they're acting rotten.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

thanks for posting that pam.

yeah, i had a step daughter in PS 15 years ago and remember what a holy hassle it was. and she wasn't SN. so, yeah i get you. school is so much more work than homeschooling. IMHO.

my DS is also 7 and jebus he is nutbag sometimes. i'm in the middle of trying to calm down DD and find a solution that will work for both of them and he come running in the DR screaming his fool head off. i wanted to knock him into next month. i feel like crap, no one has as much as made me a cup of tea, and here i am with this 7 year old screaming in my face.









really what i need is a break. but i rarely get these. i think i will send everyone to my MILs this weekend so i can chill a bit (i need to get some HS paperwork done too).

i know the whole "boundary thing" is made more complicated by his right-brainedness... but i just wish i could find a way to better convey what the fallout is for his impulsive freaking out on people. i feel like it's really gonna be trouble for him in the future. it already makes me periodically resentful. i feel like a treat this kid so well. being as respectful and polite as i can, looking for peaceful solutions. trying to never force him to do anything, listening to his POV all the time. and here he is treating me like crap. i try not to take it personal, but sometimes i just crumble. life with him is never easy. and i have pretty solid limits with him... OY!


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

It's been interesting reading this thread. I wish I had seen it last year! But I so avoid the gd forum because I just don't usually get anything helpful from it. I was thinking about posting a gd thread in special needs because I didn't want to hear a bunch of stuff that simply does.not.work.with.my.kid!!!







(I am a little touchy about it)

My oldest ds is almost 6 and in K at a public charter school. I've yet to hear what the OT there thinks from her session with him but every list of symptoms I've read of ODD and many on the SPD list apply to him. The good thing is he LOVES school and works really hard to cooperate there. His inflexibility actually comes in handy because once he is clear on the rules and the way things work at school he doesn't really step out of line of what they expect of him. It's also a really super school. So I get a full school days break from dealing with the issues we deal with at home 5 days a week! HSing mamas I salute you!
We probably slip on the gd way more than anyone here







I keep calm and focused with my kids but then it starts to slide and I do a fair bit of yelling and occasionally grab them or slap arms or drag them to time outs. Unfortunetly, I think I have sensory issues too and it makes it really hard for me not to panic sometimes when dss (younger one is 3) are being really rough or mean. I am seriously working on this!
One thing that has really helped our family are homeopathic remedies. They have REALLY helped me. We've had some help from them with ds. He asks for his remedy sometimes. We also do flower remedies. Ds frequently asks for "rescue remedy".
Someone also mentioned chelation. Something that had dramatic physical and behavioral success with ds is thuja. It is indicated for healing from vaccines.

I really want to work on accepting my ds for who he is. But I also want to help him overcome things that are anti social. Having a tantrum when you are 6 is not ok. I'm not saying he can control it. He very obviously has very little self control when he's in an agitated state. Discipline methods only go so far. Like others here, I actually think ds needs some serious healing in his body to help him feel less agitated. That's why I love the homeopathics, they are for body, mind and soul and actually heal as opposed to treat a symptom.
I feel such a tremendous pressure for my child's behavior to conform to what people want it to be. I feel so much pressure to control his behavior. This thread has been very supportive of my desire to use gd exclusively!
Sometimes I feel like a kid, like I don't have the words to use in every situation and so I yell. I get so overstimulated because dss are so intensely loud and combative and so I turn into a little kid and get caught up in the fray!


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## jewelsJZ (Jan 10, 2008)

I need to be on this thread. I just posted something in the "Yell at this thread instead of your kid" thread about my 5 year old exploding over glue that didn't dry fast enough, which was his 400th explosion about something minor since he got home from school today.
Just ordered the Explosive Child book from the library at the suggestion on the first page of this thread.
Haven't had a chance to read over all the pages of this thread yet but wanted to subscribe.
Sigh. Winter is coming. That's the hardest with this particular child. Being cooped up in the house is hard for him, and thus, hard on all of us.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Hi! Not sure if DD fully meets the definition of explosive child, but since _I_ feel like exploding when _she_ goes off, I thought I'd say hello.

I am loving the book and website recs--thanks to all the mommas who posted those.

DD is only 2 and it sounds like there's hope that she might go through a developmental spurt and move past this. Even so, I think I better prepare because I'm sure all this will come back around when she's a teen.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Subbing.


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## HelenaHanBasket (May 4, 2011)

Is this a dead thread?!?

I've finally figured out that out of 5 I have TWO explosive children!! I've started reading the book, The Explosive Child and have implemented Plan B when I have the patience and where with all to do it. I am a fairly new single mama (since last October) and this is just burning me out.

I need to know there are others I can talk to. Anyone still here? I'm subbing just in case.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

I think this one looks pretty dormant. You might want to start a thread in "Special Needs Parenting" forum. I have seen several there which were relevant to my situation (childhood anxiety/depression). You are not alone. Hang in there.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I didn't even know this thread existed, but I love the book, it really changed our lives. Here's my thread about what I was dealing with and how the book helped us:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1262293/once-my-5-year-old-loses-it-i-can-t-get-things-back-under-control


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Anyone have a explosive child, but find this book didn't help too much? The only things that work here are time-in, but those seem to make them madder before they get calmer, and NVC....


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mittsy*
> 
> Anyone have a explosive child, but find this book didn't help too much? The only things that work here are time-in, but those seem to make them madder before they get calmer, and NVC....


Yes. I have an 8 yr old who has spd, and is extremely volatile. This book did not help with her, but it did help with my younger DS (then again, he almost always responds to all GD methods.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i found the follow up book for professionals very helpful: "treating explosive kids." the point is i think, if you want something different from these kids you have to give them something different.

i also found "playful parenting" really helpful. my husband found a book...... something about "strong willed kids" very helpful (except for the god stuff).


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

I found "Playful Parenting" to be a very helpful book. I learned a lot of playful ways to engage with DD so we were able to try to start doing the Plan B stuff in the "Explosive Child" book.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

this is the book my DH liked http://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Make-Persuaded-Strong-Willed/dp/1578561930/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1304975392&sr=8-6 i found it pretty fundamental. but for him the concrete suggestions were a good thing.

i found this at the doctor's office today: http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Child-Who-Intense-Emotions/dp/1572246499/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1304975500&sr=1-1

i recommended "explosive child" to her a few years back and she found this one on her own. i was excited by what i read in the first few pages. will update when i am done.


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