# Struggling with Discipline, 4 year old and Apartment Dwelling



## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

Maybe just a vent, but any advice welcome.

We live in an apartment building. We moved in when DS was 3.5 and I specifically mentioned that we have preschooler, he makes noise, he gets mad and has temper tantrum from time to time, was that going to be a problem for our neighbours. Oh no, of course not. Lots of kids in the building, no problem. Well we've had about 4 noise complaints about his temper tantrums in the past 6 months. They don't happen often, but usually in spurts of a few day at a time during growth spurts and developmental periods. We try to keep him in his room to minimize the noise, but it definately can be heard through out the floor.

What can we do? If we give in to his every whim we won't be very great parents. Do we just ignore the neighbours? Of course we are talking about empathy for the neighbours, what it's like to be awoken on a weekend by someone yelling, etc. But I don't think its realistic to expect him to fully understand that, or that he be in complete control of his temper at this age...am I wrong? What is developmentally normal at this stage?


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I think, forgetting about the empathy for others and focusing just on him might help. The empathy is more of a guilt trip thing at this age, you know? It's like, you _should_ think about the neighbors, yadda yadda. But there's no fixing it and that's something easily forgotten or frustrating in the heat of the moment.

What options do you use right now with his temper tantrums? Maybe if you post what isn't working you can get some fresh ideas on how to calm them quicker.








s: I live in an apt building right now and all I hear from upstairs is a 3yo being threatened with time out, being in time out, or on his way there, along with the tantrums all day. It is frustrating to listen to, but I'm not exactly going to complain about it. I've got earbuds and an ipod.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dido1* 
What can we do? If we give in to his every whim we won't be very great parents. Do we just ignore the neighbours?

I think you need to ignore the neighbors. He's 4. 4 yo's have tantrums sometimes. Of course, you should do all that you can to support him in not having tantrums in the first place (keeping him well fed, rested, you know....all the things you do anyway as a good parent).

Are neighbors complaining to you themselves? Or are the complaining to management, and them mgmt letting you know?

Living with tantrums is tough enough without complaints from the neighbors


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

4 year olds have tantrums. It doesn't sound like his are excessive (4 bad ones in 6 months?).

If the neighbors are complaining to you, I would develop a little spiel for them - "I'm sorry. I know it's disturbing to be woken up by someone yelling and stomping. We are working with him to help him learn more appropriate ways to express anger. But I hope you can appreciate that we can't always prevent tantrums. If we give in just to prevent a tantrum, that wouldn't be good, right? All that's going to teach him is to tantrum more to get what he wants. I'm sure you don't want that. I know it's hard when you can hear him, and we're doing our best to get through this phase as fast we can. "

If they're complaining to the management, I would remind the management that they said that kids were no problems, that your son is generally pretty good, and then add a version of your spiel for the neighbors "I'm sure you appreciate that we can't always prevent them; we don't want to raise a spoiled brat... yada yada.." (it may help to put this in more mainstream terms.

For yourselves, you can also see how many of these you can head off at the pass. If you sense a developmental/growth spurt is coming, then maybe reduce activities, add in rest times, make sure he's well fed. What's on the floor in his bedroom? Can you put a carpet down?

I'd think about what helps him calm down the fastest. Remember you can comfort him when he's mad without 'giving in'. For our dd, offering a hug is the fastest way 'out' of a tantrum (she's also a stomper and a thrower). Alas, for our ds, it wasn't. He needed to be left ALONE. Finding a comfort spot for him to be alone (behind the couch) helped him deal faster.

Finally, repeat "this too shall pass" as needed!


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

DS's tantrums definately come in waves, usually every three to four months during developmental spurts, growth spurts, what have you. And of course, in response to family stress, schools stress (like if one of his playmates moves, etc).

Thankfully our apartment is carpeted and cement, but sound still carries within the floor. Our approach to tantrum is generally to try to redirect, if that doesn't work and he becomes violent towards us or something, he is invited to go this room for quiet time until he can be gentle. I usually stay in there with him, but this usually results in getting punched and scratched for a long time. There are lots of offers of hugs, etc during the process, but generally his tantrum just need to run their course. The tantrums end much faster when we the parents keep ourselves cool


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## moonyoungi (Jul 3, 2007)

could you take him out for a walk? We live in apartments, too, and we try to redirect as much as possible. Change of activity, change of parent, change of scenery, change of room etc to shorten the tantrum and shift him out of that "rut," you know?


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Although I agree that tantrums are 'normal' for 4yos - I don't think you should ignore your neighbors....

You chose to live in an appartment - and you need to be respectful of the people around you.

We live in a townhouse - and when DD wakes in the middle of the night, if she doesn't settle right away - we take her downstairs so that we don't disturb the other people we share walls with. And we appreciate that our next door neighbors (2 university students) don't let people upstairs when they have a party. That way it's quiet when we want to go to sleep.

Personally - I think that 4 is old enough for your son to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the 'rules' for living with other people. And one of those is that you don't make large amounts of noise.

So - when he was calm - I would ask him to think of something 'quiet' that he thinks might help him express his frustration/anger when he's upset. He might surprise you with what he comes up with. Maybe he can throw stuffed animals against his bed, or some other physical way to express himself. (Yelling is physical).

Then practice it. Run 'pretend tantrums' (we call them fits...) where he runs to his room and does his thing.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Although I agree that tantrums are 'normal' for 4yos - I don't think you should ignore your neighbors....

You chose to live in an appartment - and you need to be respectful of the people around you.

We live in a townhouse - and when DD wakes in the middle of the night, if she doesn't settle right away - we take her downstairs so that we don't disturb the other people we share walls with. And we appreciate that our next door neighbors (2 university students) don't let people upstairs when they have a party. That way it's quiet when we want to go to sleep.

Personally - I think that 4 is old enough for your son to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the 'rules' for living with other people. And one of those is that you don't make large amounts of noise.

So - when he was calm - I would ask him to think of something 'quiet' that he thinks might help him express his frustration/anger when he's upset. He might surprise you with what he comes up with. Maybe he can throw stuffed animals against his bed, or some other physical way to express himself. (Yelling is physical).

Then practice it. Run 'pretend tantrums' (we call them fits...) where he runs to his room and does his thing.

While I think the practical suggestions in this post are great, I take issue with the expectation that a 4 yo should tantrum quietly so as not to disturb the neighbors. It seems analogous to expecting an infant refrain from crying. While it may be possible for some families to teach their young children to express anger in quiet ways that don't bother the neighbors, that is not possible for all families and children. I hope that the op can use the practical suggestions in this thread to help her son and her neighbors, but I do not believe that tantruming has much relationship to general respect for neighbors.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
While I think the practical suggestions in this post are great, I take issue with the expectation that a 4 yo should tantrum quietly so as not to disturb the neighbors. It seems analogous to expecting an infant refrain from crying. While it may be possible for some families to teach their young children to express anger in quiet ways that don't bother the neighbors, that is not possible for all families and children. I hope that the op can use the practical suggestions in this thread to help her son and her neighbors, but I do not believe that tantruming has much relationship to general respect for neighbors.

It has nothing to do with infants.... If the poster had said "we're getting noise complaints about our infant who has colic..." I would have had a different response.

4yos are old enough to take other people into account. They aren't babies - they are children. They have enough self control to begin learning how alternative ways to express intense emotions.

What's different - is that some people live in a situation where they have the luxury of not having to worry about it.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I wouldn't ignore the neighbors. My concern with them would be that you could get kicked out or your lease wouldn't be renewed because of the number of complaints. I lived in apartments for years (pre-kids) and never had a single complaint, so 4 complaints in 6 months seems pretty significant. If I were management, I'd start considering whether you were more of a pain than was worth it. Are the complaints coming from the same person?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
4yos are old enough to take other people into account. They aren't babies - they are children. They have enough self control to begin learning how alternative ways to express intense emotions.
.


I agree with what you have stated here. But the key is _begin learning_. I am taking issue with the expectation that it be mastered at 4, for the benefit of the neighbors. I do not believe that to be a reasonable expectation at age 4.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I agree with what you have stated here. But the key is _begin learning_. I am taking issue with the expectation that it be mastered at 4, for the benefit of the neighbors. I do not believe that to be a reasonable expectation at age 4.

I agree that mastery shouldn't be an expectation. But - I think that 4 is old enough where because they do live in an appartment with other people all around them - their son needs to learn ways other than yelling and screaming to express himself.

I was mainly reacting to the people who said to ignore the fact that they had 4 noise complaints in 6 months.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I agree that mastery shouldn't be an expectation. But - I think that 4 is old enough where because they do live in an appartment with other people all around them - their son needs to learn ways other than yelling and screaming to express himself.

I was mainly reacting to the people who said to ignore the fact that they had 4 noise complaints in 6 months.

I was one of those people







lol. I don't think she should ignore as in "not talk to them about it", but rather as in "not worry about the neighbors when in the heat of a tantrum"--because I think that would only make things worse.

I've had that 4 yo; my dd was very similar at that age. And I do think those complaints are analogous to getting complaints about a colicky infant. Staying calm and riding out violent tantrums can be really, really tough (just like staying calm with a colicky infant). Having the added pressure of keeping the child quiet (in addition to keeping people safe) feels like a LOT of pressure to me--but maybe my experience is outside the norm.

Anyway, I really feel for the op and hope that she can use the suggestions on this thread to help both her ds and her neighbors


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

I do appreciate all the suggestions.

Unfortunately we didn't _choose_ to live in an apartment, it's the only affordable option in our area. If I had a choice, we'd definately be in a house with a backyard to assist with the burn off the energy factor.

We are definately working with DS during calm times to help him understand that he needs to respect our neighbours, but it's still a work in progress. He's stubborn to say the least.

I guess my biggest challenge is being so self-concious about the neighbours that I haven't been managing tantrums well. Instead of letting them ride out, I try to stop them, which makes them worse. I suppose I will have to just continue to try to contain DS in his room (the place in our apartment with no shared walls) and pray that the landlords don't evict us.

As to who is complaining, I don't know. Our managers have a policy where tenants aren't supposed to complain directly to one another, but rather through management. It's quite frustrating not to be able to deal with the concern directly. I have tried to speak to the person I think is complaining (not about the noise, just hello in the elevator, etc.) and she won't even make eye contact. I think she's mad because I phoned the management to ask if she would please move her tv to another wall so that it doesn't wake us up when she cranks it up at 3 a.m. after coming home from her job. But it could be anyone on our floor.

I find it really hard to live with people who expect full on silence in an apartment, which is part of my frustration (we got a noise complaint the first time because DS was making happy sounds in the afternoon). We hear our next door neighbours tv in the middle of the night, the grandmother next door hollering at her grandson all day, the other neighbour standing in the hall chatting at full volume with her friends, the neighbours upstairs beating each other up and throwing things around their apartment at all hours, etc. But we don't complain because these are the sounds of shared living spaces. I know all people shouldn't have to love kids, but a little tolerance and understanding would be nice. Sigh. I'll have to call the manager and let her know we are working on the issue and trying to be responsible neighbours and parents.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dido1* 
I guess my biggest challenge is being so self-concious about the neighbours that I haven't been managing tantrums well. Instead of letting them ride out, I try to stop them, which makes them worse. I suppose I will have to just continue to try to contain DS in his room (the place in our apartment with no shared walls) and pray that the landlords don't evict us. .

Big hugs. We moved to an apt last year, and my dd was 6-7 yo when we were dealing with loud, violent tantrums (she had regressed a ton because of the move--these tantrums were the norm for her at 3-4 yo). Luckily, no one ever complained. But you know, we can only do so much. We help, support, and teach our children, but if they are going to explode, sometimes the best we can do is contain it to our own home. Your home should be the one place where you can deal with this behavior without critical eyes and ears.

I'd like to think that, if neighbors heard a child very out of control, the neighbors would have empathy for the child and the parents--after all, they are the ones living with the situation! And it surely isn't easy.


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

I have a hard time being sympathetic to your neighbors--I mean, this is the middle of the day, right? So you're not even disturbing their sleep necessarily? You'd think after years of living in an apartment they'd have some idea what it's like. I live in a condo and due to the part of the country we live in will probably be in a similar kind of dwelling our whole lives, you deal. We don't wear shoes in the house to minimize that noise, keep the volume on electronics turned down, only play piano very rarely midday... and still had a neighbor go crazy on us once because she said she could here our dogs walking around. Not barking. walking around. Some people you can't reason with. I think the behavior you describe is fine. But how to deal with your landlords? Maybe you can ask them what is acceptable to them, hours for noise, etc. Do they think your neighbors complaints have merit?


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
I have a hard time being sympathetic to your neighbors--I mean, this is the middle of the day, right? So you're not even disturbing their sleep necessarily? You'd think after years of living in an apartment they'd have some idea what it's like. I live in a condo and due to the part of the country we live in will probably be in a similar kind of dwelling our whole lives, you deal. We don't wear shoes in the house to minimize that noise, keep the volume on electronics turned down, only play piano very rarely midday... and still had a neighbor go crazy on us once because she said she could here our dogs walking around. Not barking. walking around. Some people you can't reason with. I think the behavior you describe is fine. But how to deal with your landlords? Maybe you can ask them what is acceptable to them, hours for noise, etc. Do they think your neighbors complaints have merit?

The poster indicates that sometimes this happens early in the morning on weekends - so it would wake people up:

Quote:

what it's like to be awoken on a weekend by someone yelling, etc.
She also says that you can hear him all over the appartment floor:

Quote:

We try to keep him in his room to minimize the noise, but it definately can be heard through out the floor.


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
I have a hard time being sympathetic to your neighbors--I mean, this is the middle of the day, right? So you're not even disturbing their sleep necessarily? You'd think after years of living in an apartment they'd have some idea what it's like. I live in a condo and due to the part of the country we live in will probably be in a similar kind of dwelling our whole lives, you deal. We don't wear shoes in the house to minimize that noise, keep the volume on electronics turned down, only play piano very rarely midday... and still had a neighbor go crazy on us once because she said she could here our dogs walking around. Not barking. walking around. Some people you can't reason with. I think the behavior you describe is fine. But how to deal with your landlords? Maybe you can ask them what is acceptable to them, hours for noise, etc. Do they think your neighbors complaints have merit?

The earliest he might disturb the neighbours is 7 a.m., at which time most of our neighbours are up and getting out the door also, but one neighbour works shift work so he would definately wake her up if he's having a tantrum at that time. Most of his noise is confined to midday, weekends or evenings before 9 a.m.

We found this weekend that if we roll up a blanket like a draft stopper and place it at the foot of the front door to our apartment, it really dampens the noise, so we may just make a habit of putting that in place when we are home.

Kessed, we are very sensitive to the fact that we are bothering at least one of the neighbours, which is why we are taking steps to try to manage the problem more effectively. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect constant quiet from a four year old. I dearly wish we could live in a space where I didn't have to dampen his natural enthusiasm and exuberance. I feel quite frustrated that my son cannot be a kid in his own home without someone complaining. Ah well, we live in a city and this is the struggle of apartment dwelling.


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

I live in an apartment building and we can hear all of the loud noises and most people are very nice about it. To me, those are issues that can only be dealt with face to face, not through management. That seems so conducive to hostility. The neighbours across the hall, when they first moved in, came over to let me know that they both work evenings and sleep until noon-ish so now DD plays in the living room in the morning. That kind of relationship makes tantrums and other unexpected noises easier to deal with because everybody knows that we are trying to be sensitive to them.

There was another neighbour who thankfully only lived here for about a year who was really a pain to deal with. He would expect complete silence yet was always listening to loud music and smoking drugs. after DD and her friend both tripped and fell on the floor together ans started crying (at 6pm), he came up screaming his head off about the noise (enough for everyone else to open their doors to see what was going on). I told him I was sorry, that kids sometimes hurt themselves and cry sometimes, that it was early and that it would all be over in a matter of minutes. He went to call me a bad mother and told me that, as a kid, he never made any kind of noise because his parents raised him properly. I just closed the door.

Basically, my point is that you really need to have a conversation with the neighbours if it bothers you that they complain and you want to know what you are dealing with. This could be a decent person who just does not know much about kids and is not sure you are doing everything in your power to not disturb anyone or some raving lunatic who just likes to complain.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dido1* 
Kessed, we are very sensitive to the fact that we are bothering at least one of the neighbours, which is why we are taking steps to try to manage the problem more effectively. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect constant quiet from a four year old. I dearly wish we could live in a space where I didn't have to dampen his natural enthusiasm and exuberance. I feel quite frustrated that my son cannot be a kid in his own home without someone complaining. Ah well, we live in a city and this is the struggle of apartment dwelling.

I hear that you are trying.

The part that kind of bugs me is that you seem to be saying that the noise from tantrums is the same thing as the noise from a kid playing...

And I don't agree with that.

There is a huge difference between the two of them. And asking your son to express his intense emotions (tantrums) in a way other than yelling and screaming - isn't "dampening his natural enthusiasm and exuberance"... Just watch how people in a restaurant react when a baby shrieks in delight - or excitedly talks a little too loud. Then watch how they react when a kid screams because he wants out of the highchair or doesn't want to eat his dinner. There will be people who glare in both situations. But more people will smile and not mind when the kid is happy.

Also - 7am is VERY early in an appartment building. Even when I worked full time - I was rarely up at that time. And now, working almost full time with an 18 month old - I am almost never up that early. It may be a normal time for you - but it's not for everyone.

Personally I never minded noise in my appartment building between 10am and 9pm. And those where the posted 'quiet hours' in the lease. What are the 'quiet hours' in your lease?


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:

Kessed, we are very sensitive to the fact that we are bothering at least one of the neighbours, which is why we are taking steps to try to manage the problem more effectively. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect constant quiet from a four year old. I dearly wish we could live in a space where I didn't have to dampen his natural enthusiasm and exuberance. I feel quite frustrated that my son cannot be a kid in his own home without someone complaining. Ah well, we live in a city and this is the struggle of apartment dwelling.
Big hugs to the OP
I have issues with this situation. It bothers me that the neighborhs are so insensitive. That's right. I said it. I mean, they should have sensitivity to you as a mother of a toddler. I"m sorry, but tantrums for a 4 year old is a normal behaviour. Additionally - what if a child screams from joy and excuberance? I should shut him up for the fear of disturbing the neighborhs?

And I'm not saying that OP should not teach her child manner and sensitivity towards the neighbors as well, but complaining to the management about child's tantrums? That's just wrong.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax* 
Big hugs to the OP
I have issues with this situation. It bothers me that the neighborhs are so insensitive. That's right. I said it. I mean, they should have sensitivity to you as a mother of a toddler. I"m sorry, but tantrums for a 4 year old is a normal behaviour. Additionally - what if a child screams from joy and excuberance? I should shut him up for the fear of disturbing the neighborhs?

In 1 year the kid is old enough for kindergarten...

I know that most kindergartens, here at least, are in schools, and even happy 'loud noises' aren't allowed because they would disturb everyone else.

I went to a Montessori school for pre-school (3 and 4) which was in a classroom in a public elementary school. I remember that we did a 'happy dance' when we were excited about things because being loud would disturb the other students.

I guess that there are many places where kids can be as loud as they want - like the park - so I don't understand the 'evil' in having other places be 'normal' voice places.

Kids do need a chance to be loud and run around and get all crazy. I grew up in a house - and the rule was to use our inside voice and walk. If we wanted to run and yell - we went outside.

Is that really such a horrible oppressive concept?


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
In 1 year the kid is old enough for kindergarten...

I know that most kindergartens, here at least, are in schools, and even happy 'loud noises' aren't allowed because they would disturb everyone else.

I went to a Montessori school for pre-school (3 and 4) which was in a classroom in a public elementary school. I remember that we did a 'happy dance' when we were excited about things because being loud would disturb the other students.

I guess that there are many places where kids can be as loud as they want - like the park - so I don't understand the 'evil' in having other places be 'normal' voice places.

Kids do need a chance to be loud and run around and get all crazy. I grew up in a house - and the rule was to use our inside voice and walk. If we wanted to run and yell - we went outside.

Is that really such a horrible oppressive concept?

Please Kessed, you know that I don't mean for a child to run like crazy inside the house, but a child can laugh loudly, talk loudly etc...


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax* 
Please Kessed, you know that I don't mean for a child to run like crazy inside the house, but a child can laugh loudly, talk loudly etc...

You missed my point.

Talking and laughing loudly isn't something that children are allowed to do at school - at least not at any school I went to. So - at age 5, it's reasonable that kids can express themselves quietly.

I babysit a 4.5yo, 2yo twins and my own 18mo DD. Between the 3 younger ones - they nap for a span of ~3 hours every afternoon. The 4.5yo is perfectly capable of happily playing quietly during that time. And she almost always does. And I make sure to help her - so we do quiet crafts, baking, and other stuff that is meaning full where we can talk - but it isn't going to trigger loud responses. And if she's having a hard time keeping her voice down - we go outside.

I'm not saying that it's reasonable to expect that kid be quiet all the time. But at 7am? I think that it's probably reasonable to keep it quiet until 9am - especially on weekends. And I think that most 4yos would be able to do that.

They won't always succeed - but I think that it's reasonable to try.

I really feel for the OP. As I said before I live in a townhouse where we share both side walls with other people. We won't be in a position to move any time soon - so we have to figure out how to deal with this too.

On weekends - we normally dress her before we go to bed. And then if she wakes up early - we go outside for a picnic breakfast (nothing fancy - we take the loaf of bread and some jam) so that her normal excitedness for being awake doesn't bother our neighbors. If she's in a happy quiet mood - we'll start the day reading books rather than running around. The people next to us have a kid who goes to sleep around 7pm. So we make sure that DD is quiet, or we go to the park or something, around that time so that she doesn't make a sudden noise and wake their kid up. I'll admit that it would be easier to just let her make noise - but we live in a communal setting and need to respect that other people have needs too.

And, the one night she was up screaming (had a bad EI) all night. The college girl from next door came over the next day with some cookies because she figured that something was wrong.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
The part that kind of bugs me is that you seem to be saying that the noise from tantrums is the same thing as the noise from a kid playing...

And I don't agree with that.

There is a huge difference between the two of them.

I agree. But I think it is _much_ more reasonable to expect a parent to redirect joyful yelling and bouncing outdoors than to keep down the noise of a tantruming 4 yo. I mean, really, in the moment--what is she to do? Restrain him? Cover his mouth? Give in so he shuts up? Certainly not walk him outside, where he isn't even safe....

She _is_ teaching him about respecting neighbors and appropriate expressions of frustration. But right now he is 4, and he is yelling, kicking, and scratching. What exactly should she be doing differently?


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:

And I think that most 4yos would be able to do that.

They won't always succeed - but I think that it's reasonable to try.
Kessed,
It's all great and all, but I don't know where you getting the concept of normal 4 yo behaviour. I think that this is the age where you can start teaching them to think outside their own box, but I just don't get where you get the idea that 4 year olds are capable of containing themselves for the sake of the neighbors.

Anyway, as I said before, what really bugs me is that the neighbors had the audacity to complain to the management, this is the situation where the rules should go out of the window. This is not some teenager that plays horribly loud music and throw loud parties. It's a child. A conversation and some emphathy go a long way.

And another thing I noticed in your example is that you compare the OP's child to the 4.5year old girl. I"m sure it was discussed many times that the temperaments of an average 4 year old girl is different then a temp.of an average 4 yo boy.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax* 
Anyway, as I said before, what really bugs me is that the neighbors had the audacity to complain to the management, this is the situation where the rules should go out of the window. This is not some teenager that plays horribly loud music and throw loud parties. It's a child. A conversation and some emphathy go a long way.

I would NEVER complain directly to someone else in an appartment.

To me that's crazy.

We made exactly 3 complaints during the 2 years that we lived in our appartment. And, with none of them, would it have been appropriate to approach the people directly. I think that it's almost NEVER appropriate to approach people directly. It leaves too much open for emotions to run high and people to do/say things they shouldn't.

This case is a good example of that.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I would NEVER complain directly to someone else in an appartment.

To me that's crazy.

We made exactly 3 complaints during the 2 years that we lived in our appartment. And, with none of them, would it have been appropriate to approach the people directly. I think that it's almost NEVER appropriate to approach people directly. It leaves too much open for emotions to run high and people to do/say things they shouldn't.

This case is a good example of that.

I completely completely disagree with this. Especially in this situation!!!!! You can even see from this example that a OP would love to talk to the person who complained, but she doesn't know who did it, which makes the situation that much more difficult.
It's only humane to talk to the parent and say: "I'm sorry, but at this time and this time, I was interrupted by your child because x.y.z... Is everything Okay? Can I offer my help???"

How can I teach my child some symphathy and ability to communicate to
others if I"m showing no example of such things myself???


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I would NEVER complain directly to someone else in an appartment.

To me that's crazy.

We made exactly 3 complaints during the 2 years that we lived in our appartment. And, with none of them, would it have been appropriate to approach the people directly. I think that it's almost NEVER appropriate to approach people directly. It leaves too much open for emotions to run high and people to do/say things they shouldn't.

This case is a good example of that.

I don't agree. In this case it may be that if the tantrum could be confined to a front room, it would cause less disturbance for the neighbor than keeping him in his bedroom. The fact is, the child is going to have tantrums. The question is, how to ease the burden this puts on the neighbors. If you don't know anything about them or their habits how can you do this?

For example a neighbor of ours let a great deal of hostility build up because apparently we were waking her every morning when we exited out the front stairs. If we had known this, we could have eliminated the problem by using the back stairs instead.

In cases where it's daily living noises, which I think tantrums fall under, instead of say, noises from parties or violence or something, I think the two should be able to work out some mutually agreeable solution.


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

This is obviously a hot button topic  Thank to everyone for your thoughts, support and feedback.

Yes, I would dearly love to speak directly to whomever complained to explain that we are very sorry for the disturbance, that we cannot promise it won't happen again, but that we are working very hard with our little one to manage his age-appropriate outbursts in a less noisy and distruptive way. However, this is not possible, so we'll just continue to attempt to contain, manage and reduce the noise disruption as much as possible.

Kessed, you have a lot to say about what we should be doing and your expectations of a 4 year old. I appreciate your ideas but I must say I'm very happy I am NOT your neighbour because even on my very best parenting days, I cannot prevent the occassional meltdown at 7:15 because DS doesn't like the shoes I picked out. Sometimes the emotions are just too high and they have to come out of a little one, like it or not.

Also, I don't think that curbing exuberance and noise inside is "evil", but I wish that I didn't have to cringe with fear of a noise complaint every time my son doesn't use an inside voice, laughs too loud, cries, or jumps up and down.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dido1* 
Also, I don't think that curbing exuberance and noise inside is "evil", but I wish that I didn't have to cringe with fear of a noise complaint every time my son doesn't use an inside voice, laughs too loud, cries, or jumps up and down.

And I really feel for you. I also know that as time goes on we're moving more and more into this. At 18 months DD is starting to be loud. It's not too much now - but she's definitely loud enough that we aren't able to do things like nightwean because it's not fair to our neighbors for them to have to deal with that much noise in the middle of the night.

We also put her in the car and drive her to sleep because we don't feel that it's fair to make our neighbors ave to listen to her cry on nights when she gets overtired and doesn't want to nurse to sleep, or go in the sling (normally completely silent ways to put her to sleep).

I honestly have no idea how we will transition to her going to sleep by herself. Her bedroom shares a wall with a woman who works the breakfast shift before going to university all day. She's often in bed by 8pm. Luckily DD doesn't cry when she wakes up in the middle of the night - she just comes into our room. But if she still did cry - we wouldn't have moved her into her own room. Ours is more isolated.

I have some questions. What are your building's quiet hours? And have any of the complaints come from noise made during the middle of the day - so not during the quiet hours. You mentioned 7am on a weekend. I've never heard of an appartment where that wasn't 'quiet hours'.


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## dido1 (Aug 12, 2004)

Quiet hours in our area are generally 9 a.m. to 10 p.m., I believe, but I remember our building managers saying that they expect people to be conscious about the noise coming from their apartments at all times during the day, not just at night. I questioned that at the time, again pointing out that we have a child and weren't in control of when he made noises and we were assured that children's being loud wasn't a problem.


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## mamaChe (Feb 14, 2008)

I have been following this thread and thinking about my response and I have come to a conclusion (finally lol)

I think we are doing a disservice to our children if we do not teach them that expressing their emotions, good or bad, is not only ok but necessary. I think that a lot of problems with this world stem from not being able to express what we want and need because so much has to be repressed in order to make other people happy. And sometimes throwing stuffed animals around a room just isn't enough. Sometimes you have to yell scream and kick (or laugh and yell and jump) to get it all out. As long as it isn't physically harming yourself or others-- then I don't see why it should be stopped. And often, if you just let a tantrum run its course, it is over quickly and the child is ready to play calmly and quietly once again.

The people who are sharing the building are also living in a communal situation, and they need to make sacrifices as such. If the noise of children bothers them, perhaps they should move to a kid free place/get an ipod/take a walk/etc. This is coming from someone who has lived underneath a three year old recently. The girl was prone to extended and loud tantrums. Yes, they disturbed us. Yes, they woke my dear children up from naps. Yes, they were necessary for the girl to process her feelings and emotions and we did not complain. As my dear partner often says, I'm sure that we annoy them as often as they annoy us. And that's the beauty of living with others.

Now, with that said, I agree that the situation would be helped if you could know what would reduce the annoyance to the person(s) being bothered. It is a shame that they cannot come forward to you in person about this.

dido1, from the sounds of things, it seems like you are doing all that you can to dampen the noise. I think that solutions like putting the towel under the door are more the direction you should take. Is the place carpeted? Maybe even some background noise would help drown it out. Sometimes music makes the screaming turn more into just white noise.. And remember, this tantruming stage will be over soon. Teaching a four-year old to have a "quiet" tantrum I think would be a never ending stressful battle.

Also, are the managers concerned about the complaints or are they just relaying them to you. I would take up issue with the fact that you were told that children's noise was all well and good in the beginning and now this is happening. If the manager isn't going to uphold what was said (i.e. tell the complainer that children are ok), then that is a different issue.

All in all, good luck. These are trying times, I'm sorry you have to worry about neighbors on top of it all. Sometimes when my LO is having a tantrum, I break down and have one with her. Boy, I'm glad our neighbors are rarely home!


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