# I bought Dobson's Dare to Discipline



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

at a garage sale for $.50 for the express purpose of putting it in the garbage so it would not fall into the hands of someone seeking parenting advice.

What a crappy book.

~Tracy


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Good for you.

Dobson scares me. When people tell me that they respect him, I often bring up his anecdote about beating his tiny dog with a belt (because the dog was sleeping in the wrong spot). Sadly, it takes this tale of animal abuse to get some people to consider that his treatment of children is also abusive.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Oh my gosh. uke


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Good thinking mama!


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

one less book to get into the wrong hands....good doing mama!


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

I own a copy, it's my mom's parenting Bible and I wanted to read it so that I could speak intelligently about it to her. Couldn't make it through, it was even more awful than I had expected. His attitude toward children SUCKS. Explains a lot about my mom...


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

The title of this post scared me







:


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## tempestjewel (Apr 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
The title of this post scared me







:
























:


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*







Good for you.

Dobson scares me. When people tell me that they respect him, I often bring up his anecdote about beating his tiny dog with a belt (because the dog was sleeping in the wrong spot). Sadly, it takes this tale of animal abuse to get some people to consider that his treatment of children is also abusive.









On another site I frequent (non-parenting-related) there is much criticism of Dobson, mostly for his political views, and he is referred to as "the dog-beater." I suggested that he be called "the child-beater" instead, because while dog-beating is certainly disturbing, it's what he advocates doing to children that's really reprehensible. And I used that to talk about how children are the only members of society whose rights you're not "supposed" to advocate for, and how treatment of children is very much a public issue that people should not be afraid to take a stand on. I'm not sure I changed anybody's mind, but at least I brought it up.

Animals really do have more social rights than children--you can say openly, in mixed company, "I think beating a dog is cruel," and it won't be controversial. But if you criticize beating a child, you're being "judgemental" because child-beating is a "personal choice."

Sad, really...


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Animals really do have more social rights than children--you can say openly, in mixed company, "I think beating a dog is cruel," and it won't be controversial. But if you criticize beating a child, you're being "judgemental" because child-beating is a "personal choice."

Sad, really...

Very Sad...









I still can't wrap my mind around that line of thought....


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## bellona (Feb 17, 2006)

Hey! I was raised according to Dobson's beliefs and, well, I didn't die.

That's more than I could say if I was Ezzo-ized









(I will be in therapy until my 102nd birthday, but it's good for the economy, right?)


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## amj'smommy (Feb 24, 2005)

: another recovering "raised on Dobson" here.... "Focus on the Family"... yeah right







: I bought that book and Ezzo's book at our local Goodwill... then promptly threw them out. Best $1.60 I ever spent


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
On another site I frequent (non-parenting-related) there is much criticism of Dobson, mostly for his political views, and he is referred to as "the dog-beater." I suggested that he be called "the child-beater" instead, because while dog-beating is certainly disturbing, it's what he advocates doing to children that's really reprehensible. And I used that to talk about how children are the only members of society whose rights you're not "supposed" to advocate for, and how treatment of children is very much a public issue that people should not be afraid to take a stand on. I'm not sure I changed anybody's mind, but at least I brought it up.

Animals really do have more social rights than children--you can say openly, in mixed company, "I think beating a dog is cruel," and it won't be controversial. But if you criticize beating a child, you're being "judgemental" because child-beating is a "personal choice."

Sad, really...

I'm glad you are helping people make this connection. I too am baffled by why beating small dogs disturbs many people more than beating babies.







: I am a huge animal-lover (with 3 dogs and we would never hit them) but I do think that his advocacy of child-beating is more disturbing than his description of his own animal abuse.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

With DH selling on eBay and Amazon, I have frequent opportunities to attend garage and library sales and go to used bookshops.

I take advantage of all of them for this very purpose. It helps me when there isn't an interesting section for me to look in or a type of book he wants me to find. I hunt through the parenting sections to look for these types of books.


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I'm glad you are helping people make this connection. I too am baffled by why beating small dogs disturbs many people more than beating babies. .

They both disturb me equally. Where I worked, in a mental health clinic for kids, these two things often fed into a viscious circle---beating animals often led to beating spouses/partners and/or children. Beaten children often led to beating animals because of mimicking what had been done to them or for other reasons. If you have no problems being cruel to an animal (a "lesser" living soul), then you will have no problems being cruel to your spouse/partner and/or children (I experienced this firsthand with first husband). If you have no problems being cruel to a child, then you will have no problems being cruel to an animal, a "lesser" living soul.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Coincidentally, there is a Dobson commentary on CNN today. I emailed CNN and asked them not to feature him and/or mention his books (as they did at the introduction to his commentary - which I didn't read). I told them he advocates child and animal abuse and if they give his books national attention by mentioning them on their site they could inadvertently harm a child whose parents are prompted to buy his book(s). They probably won't listen to me though, but I tried.

Very sad to see his books mentioned there.

Sorry for the scary title to the thread. Cheap trick to get people to read my thread.

~Tracy


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## sally Z (Aug 7, 2005)

i briefly had the missfotune to glace at one of his parenting books, i think it was this one and he was discussion what you could hit kids with! As if hitting them was not bad enough he spend times discussing the various things you can use


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

I'm very curious. What exactly and specifically does the book advocate (apart from the generalities like "child abuse")? Just spanking (no, I am not advocating spanking at all but there are a lot of parents who spank and they are not classified as child abusers). Is there something more to it? I have not read the book and I am curious to know what all the fuss is about.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

WARNING - don't read following if you don't like child abuse stories!!!

Not this particular book of his but a different one I thumbed through at the bookstore had a "success" story in it from a Dobson fan. It went something like this:

"My 3 yr old dropped his orange peeling on the floor - something he is not allowed to do. I said in a firm voice, 'pick that up'. He said, 'no'. So I calmly got the paddle..."

At that point I was feeling faint and couldn't read anymore.

I had gone to his website before too after some "nice" lady in church mentioned it and I saw something about what to use to beat your kids with so they won't associate your "loving" hands with inflicting pain on them. Yeah, its the paddle's fault.









What a sick you know what.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama*
WARNING - don't read following if you don't like child abuse stories!!!

Not this particular book of his but a different one I thumbed through at the bookstore had a "success" story in it from a Dobson fan. It went something like this:

"My 3 yr old dropped his orange peeling on the floor - something he is not allowed to do. I said in a firm voice, 'pick that up'. He said, 'no'. So I calmly got the paddle..."

At that point I was feeling faint and couldn't read anymore.

I had gone to his website before too after some "nice" lady in church mentioned it and I saw something about what to use to beat your kids with so they won't associate your "loving" hands with inflicting pain on them. Yeah, its the paddle's fault.









What a sick you know what.

People don't beat people, paddles beat people. Yeah, right. Do they think the kids are stupid? They know who's holding the paddle!


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp*
I'm very curious. What exactly and specifically does the book advocate (apart from the generalities like "child abuse")? Just spanking (no, I am not advocating spanking at all but there are a lot of parents who spank and they are not classified as child abusers). Is there something more to it? I have not read the book and I am curious to know what all the fuss is about.

This is just from memory (I don't own his books) but there was an anecdote about one of his babies (maybe a year old or so?) who had learned to crawl and wanted to go up stairs. He "switched" the baby every time she did and then left the switch at the bottom of the stairs to "remind" her of the pain she would encounter if she crawled up the stairs (has he never heard of baby gates??? impulse control??? for a PhD, he sure seems dumb). ETA: Hitting children may not legally constitute child abuse but hitting a baby gets much closer. And morally, it is just repugnant. Utterly disgusting.

Here's a link to his dog-beating: http://www.nospank.net/dugan.htm


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

AHHHHH the title of this one really scared me.









Good thinking on that one, though.









I first was intro'd to Dobson's delusions when I was 16, before I was even thinking about how I wanted to raise my future child(ren). I was working in a bookstore, and curious as to what was so great about "Bringing Up Boys" that we had to always have so many copies of it in hardcover. I thumbed through it until I found his chapter on homosexuality and that was enough for me. It starts out with "a letter from a 13-year-old boy who was scared he might be gay" (or thereabouts, in quotes because the letter sounded SO FAKE) and thus began my disgust of Dobson. As you can imagine, it was very derogatory. Euuugh.

Anyway, little side-story there.

It was always SO HARD to hold my tongue after that when people would come up to purchase one of his books. Now that I know even more... I should be able to pull some kind of "it's against my morals to sell you that", right?


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## sally Z (Aug 7, 2005)

gosh that dog beating link is really terrible. What kind of a sick person is he? I know so many people who love his books.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

*


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Ok, here's a situation and quote from the book.

Background: Dobson describes a scene between an 8 y/o boy, Henry, and his mother. The mother starts nagging Henry at 8:30 that he must pick up his toys and go take his bath. He knows from experience that she doesn't actually mean *right now* so he continues playing. She gets more and more aggravated with him, and it's clear from their interaction (Dobson even says this) that she has not been consistent in the past, so he doesn't stop playing until she gets red in the face and yells. Then he slowly picks up and goes to the bathroom. Dobson comments that the mother and son both know the script - she nags, he ignores, she gets mad, he finally complies. The son knows he doesn't have to do anything until mom gets really pissed.

Then Dobson says...

Quote:

She can never count on instant obedience, because it takes her at least five minutes to work up a believable degree of anger.
Note: instant obedience. Dobson believes that parents should expect this from their children. When I say jump, you ask how high. This isn't limited to certain urgent/emergency/safety situations, this is always about the parent being in charge and making the plan, and the child going along with the plan.

Quote:

The use of rewards or "positive reinforcement" is discussed in the next chapter...but minor pain or "negative reinforcement" can also provide excellent motivation for the child.
Snarky comment: this is not actually what psychologists mean when they use the term "negative reinforcement". But we'll leave Dobson's misunderstanding of psychology alone for the moment. For now, he wants to teach parents how to inflict "minor pain" on their beloved children for the sake of getting them to do what they want, when they want it:

Quote:

...Mom or Dad should have some means of making their youngster _want_ to cooperate...I will suggest one: it is a muscle lying snugly against the base of the neck...when firmly squeezed, it sends little messengers to the brain saying "This hurts: avoid recurrence at all costs." The pain is only temporary; it can cause no damage. But it is an amazingly effective and practical recourse for parents when their youngster ignores a direct command to move.
Niiiiice.

He then goes on to describe how the mother in the first scenario should give Henry a 15 minute warning, then set the timer, then tell him to clean up and go take a bath. If he doesn't do it immediately, she should put the Vulcan neck pinch on him.

I've had this done to me. It is indeed a strong motivator to figure out FAST what you did to result in your parent doing this to you, and you do indeed refrain from doing it again. But not because you've suddenly become a better, more responsible person - no, you avoid doing it again because you FEAR your parent. Nice. That kind of fear becomes pervasive.

He never once suggested that the mother get down and play with Henry, or help him to pick up his toys, or otherwise find a way to understand him and motivate him to take a bath. There is no proactive parenting in Dobson's book that I can see, only reactive parenting. Praise/reward "good" (obedient) behavior, punish "bad" behavior.

There's more, but it's pretty much the whole book and it would go against the UA to reproduce the entire book here.







It's pretty poisonous, plays into parents' frustrated desire for control of their kids and "good", compliant children. Dobson makes snide comments about more gentle methods and his comments indicate, to me at least, that he doesn't actually understand the philosophy behind them. He regards GD to be lazy, permissive parenting. My mom did, too. Still does. Strictness is good, being flexible with your kids is letting the enemy win. Maybe that's the saddest thing of all, this philosophy relies on seeing your child as the enemy to start with.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I'd completely forgotten about the neck pinch. That just brought back some crappy memories


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

I think someone else already mentioned this, but he's homophobic too. That alone is reason not to respect his views, IMO.

I just can't believe people, after knowing that he beat a small dog with a belt (and boasts about it) would turn to him for advice on how to treat children.







:







:


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Here's a question...

Is there any type of "The Truth About Dobson" site the way there is www.ezzo.info for Gary Ezzo?

It would be nice to have a source to point more mainstream or religious parents to.

I hate Dobson. Hate him, hate him, hate him


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## evelyns_mom (Nov 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
This is just from memory (I don't own his books) but there was an anecdote about one of his babies (maybe a year old or so?) who had learned to crawl and wanted to go up stairs. He "switched" the baby every time she did and then left the switch at the bottom of the stairs to "remind" her of the pain she would encounter if she crawled up the stairs (has he never heard of baby gates??? impulse control??? for a PhD, he sure seems dumb). ETA: Hitting children may not legally constitute child abuse but hitting a baby gets much closer. And morally, it is just repugnant. Utterly disgusting.

I think that is the Pearls. Maybe Dobson says it, too, but I'm pretty sure that particular example was from the Pearls.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *evelyns_mom*
I think that is the Pearls. Maybe Dobson says it, too, but I'm pretty sure that particular example was from the Pearls.

I could have gotten them confused -- sorry! I kind of lump them together as child-beaters. I know Dobson does talk about switching his baby daughter Danae, though. It might have been when she started to toddle/crawl into a forbidden room.

Sorry about any confusion. Either way, he is a baby-beater. Maybe not as egregious as the Pearls but definitely on that same ugly spectrum.







:


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
This is just from memory (I don't own his books) but there was an anecdote about one of his babies (maybe a year old or so?) who had learned to crawl and wanted to go up stairs. He "switched" the baby every time she did and then left the switch at the bottom of the stairs to "remind" her of the pain she would encounter if she crawled up the stairs (has he never heard of baby gates??? impulse control??? for a PhD, he sure seems dumb). ETA: Hitting children may not legally constitute child abuse but hitting a baby gets much closer. And morally, it is just repugnant. Utterly disgusting.

Here's a link to his dog-beating: http://www.nospank.net/dugan.htm

The baby was 4 months old actually.







I thought it was a Pearls baby, not a Dobson baby though because the Pearls advocate the plumbing rod to beat the infants with and that's what was left on the bottom step.

ETA: X-posted.







:


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

: uke

This can't be real. Pinching your kid on the back of the neck? Hitting a baby?
Hitting a dog? There are really people out there who treat their own children and pets that way?


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funshine*
It's more than just spanking and dog-beating and switching anecdotes. He gives lip service to "mutual respect" between parents and children, but the problem with this is that the way he talks about children reveals a fundamental lack of respect for them. He talks about children in his books using words that suggest that he thinks of children as nothing but malicious little tyrants hell-bent on finding ways to defy and undermine their parents. Very little benefit of the doubt is given to children. The focus in on parents maintaining control, remaining "in charge", so that they can instill their values in the child. "Instilling" sounds more like forcing, children have very little choice in this. The prevailing message sent to children is "do it because I'm the parent and I say so". Spanking is advocated for acts of willful defiance after 15-18 months of age. He likes the word "defiance" a lot. He advocates a lot of threats and punishments.

He focuses a lot on drugs and sex and specific theological beliefs. The first two are apparently responsible for the imminent fall of our civilization. The last is a rigid set of beliefs, and if a parent does not instill that exact set of beliefs in their child, they have failed as a parent.

When he says "Dare to Discipline," what he means is "take a stand and say NO a lot and PUNISH if they defy you." He does *not* mean discipline in the GD sense, where a parent needs to have a deeper understanding of their child and set the stage for desirable outcomes, and share some responsibility for undesirable situations, and handle them with true respect for a child's personhood.

I have tried to discuss my issues with Dobson with my mom, who completely pooh-poohs them and treats me as though I only think what I do because I'm inexperienced. Clearly she is the parent and she knows better (this is part Dobsonism and part how she was raised). Interestingly, she is NOT a fan of his Focus on the Family agenda, including his anti-gay propaganda and other fundamentalist stances. Yet she feels that his parenting advice can be taken separately from all that. I don't agree. I think it's all part and parcel of the same world view, and it's not a world view I want to have.

It's also not a world view I want to pass down to my kids. Speaking as a person who was raised with Dobsonian philosophy, being brought up that way makes it VERY hard to be a GD parent. I struggle with the idea of parental control all the time, and I also struggle with anger at my child for his "defiance". Reading Naomi Aldort's Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves has helped immensely, but it's such a paradigm shift for me and very difficult to maintain.

By the way, this is completely anecdotal evidence against Dobson, but...my mom swears by his methods/advice. She, like him, places a strong value on zero drugs, total abstinence from sex until marriage, and rigid belief in her exact theological values. She thinks she was successful in instilling her beliefs in us. Her statistics...

0 of 5 children abstained from sex before marriage
4 of 5 children had (or will have had) multiple sexual partners before marriage
5 of 5 children have smoked tobacco
5 of 5 children have engaged in underaged drinking and underaged intoxication on a regular basis
4 of 5 children have tried marijuana and used it on a regular basis
2 or 3 of 5 children have used other illegal drugs, including cocaine, heroin, and shrooms
0 of 5 attend church regularly
3 of 5 still identify as Christian / Catholic despite lack of church attendance
1 of 5 considers himself an atheist

I give these stats not because *I* think they're necessarily signs of parental success/failure, but because Dobson and my mom consider them to be.

That's another troubling aspect not only of Dobson, but of a lot of parenting "experts." They seem to think that children are not agents of their own free will, but little computers to be programed. And if the child grows up to make a different choice, it must be due to some flaw in the "programing." I teach my kids my values, but I fully recognize that they will make their own choices in life regardless. I think the whole attitude of "people are the products of their upbringing and/or biology" is part of the attitude of dehumanization.

Quote:

_5 of 5 children fear her to some extent_
_0 of 5 consider the wooden spoon used to spank to be a "neutral object" (and none of us would EVER use it to serve food)_
Yeah, when you hit someone with something, it's no longer a "neutral object." It's a *weapon.*


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Here are a few more Dobson "gems," including a reference to the anecdote I was thinking about (whipping a 15-month-old for going out in the rain).

Dobson's wife whipped their 15 month old daughter for going onto the patio in the rain. Dobson says to show "parental warmth after such discipline" and to have a "Loving conclusion to the disciplinary encounter." (p. 38, Dobson)

On p.65 Dobson recommends starting whipping at age 15-18 months, and "there is no magical time at the end of childhood when spanking becomes ineffective."

68. If child disobeys in public, remove him "to a place where there is privacy" to hit them, in order to avoid "critical onlookers" who might intervene.

68. Spank children if their bedwetting is an "act of defiance."

70. If a child cries more than a few minutes after being spanked, hit them more.

71. If spanking a child doesn't produce "obedience," parent needs to "outlast him and win, even if it takes a few rounds." Parents must always punish "acts of defiance."

72. Spanking should not be "too gentle."

74. Dobson recommends a child should respond to a hitting playmate by hitting back.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

peacelovingmama, that stuff just nauseates me. NAUSEATES ME.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Thank you Funshine and others. I will, er, definitely be buying this book...NOT!!

Quote:

Dobson recommends a child should respond to a hitting playmate by hitting back
I don't actually consider this particular point to be a "discipline" issue. My DH and I are firm GD'ers and would never hit DD but we may consider instructing her to hit in self-defence on the playground. Not sure yet. For now, we have told her repeatedly that if someone at the nursery tries to hit or bite her (which does happen often enough - it's the age), she is to shout "NO!" and push the other toddler away.


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## Serrendipity (Apr 12, 2006)

Wow. What a sick you-know-what _that_ guy is! I didn't really know much about him, other than he hated gays and had some sort of christian family group that preached very un-christian values (and that was pretty much all I needed to not like him).

In the spirit of this thread, I found a copy of Babywise at the Value Village the other day, and needless to say there is now one less copy in this world. I was pretty glad I got to it before someone else did. I usually just put a flyer in (Am I the only one who takes copies of the flyers you can print out from ezzo.info with them to book stores in case I see any of his books on the shelves?), but it being second hand I just decided to get it instead.

Serendipity


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

:









What I find even more disturbing than his sick advice (I've never read his book, and am still picking my jaw up off the floor after reading this thread) is the fact that there are parents out there who actually follow it. I don't get that at all. How can anyone think that treating a child that way is okay? is right?


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp*
Thank you Funshine and others. I will, er, definitely be buying this book...NOT!!

I don't actually consider this particular point to be a "discipline" issue. My DH and I are firm GD'ers and would never hit DD but we may consider instructing her to hit in self-defence on the playground. Not sure yet. For now, we have told her repeatedly that if someone at the nursery tries to hit or bite her (which does happen often enough - it's the age), she is to shout "NO!" and push the other toddler away.

For us, GD is not only about respecting our children but about creating a less violent world and teaching non-violent conflict resolution.

Personally, I would never encourage a young child to hit on the playground. We have taught Sorin to say: "Stop! This is my body!" or "I don't like to be hit!" (or something similar) and then to notify a teacher. We do consider encouraging non-violence to be part of gentle discipline.

ETA: Self-defense is the only justification for violence, in our view, but we just don't see its application with young children. Seems that self-defense will always be better served by: a) using words; b) removing oneself from the situation; and c) seeking adult help. Responding to violence with violence usually just escalates the violence. Also, very young children are not possessed of the sort of judgment to make hitting "safe" (if one believes hitting is ever really a justifiable way to solve a problem). They may hit with objects, go for eyes and otherwise really hurt each other. I just can't see encouraging children to hit other children and it makes me sad to think that some parents may encourage their kids to hit other kids.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
For us, GD is not only about respecting our children but about creating a less violent world and teaching non-violent conflict resolution.

Personally, I would never encourage a young child to hit on the playground. We have taught Sorin to say: "Stop! This is my body!" or "I don't like to be hit!" (or something similar) and then to notify a teacher. We do consider encouraging non-violence to be part of gentle discipline.

ETA: Self-defense is the only justification for violence, in our view, but we just don't see its application with young children. Seems that self-defense will always be better served by: a) using words; b) removing oneself from the situation; and c) seeking adult help. Responding to violence with violence usually just escalates the violence. Also, very young children are not possessed of the sort of judgment to make hitting "safe" (if one believes hitting is ever really a justifiable way to solve a problem). They may hit with objects, go for eyes and otherwise really hurt each other. I just can't see encouraging children to hit other children and it makes me sad to think that some parents may encourage their kids to hit other kids.









:

In my experience, little kids hitting back in "self defense" escalates unbelievably fast, and ends in tears on all sides. My 3.9 year old has one playmate who hits or otherwise aggresses frequently (though his mom handles it very appropriately IMO,) and DS went through a phase where he hit back... picture two 3-year-olds pounding each other in the face with wooden trains... not pretty.


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

It is really scary that this man is using family values and God to advocate child abuse. What is even more scary is that people are following his advice.


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funshine*
0 of 5 consider the wooden spoon used to spank to be a "neutral object" (and none of us would EVER use it to serve food)

This is a little dumb of me to focus on this, but I was whacked with a wooden spoon (the one with the hole in the middle is painful!) and I don't like them, either. I tell my husband they harbor bacteria so I won't buy them but we use other things that probably harbor bacteria so I wonder if it's a subconscious hatred of that stupid spoon.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
Dobson scares me. When people tell me that they respect him, I often bring up his anecdote about beating his tiny dog with a belt (because the dog was sleeping in the wrong spot). Sadly, it takes this tale of animal abuse to get some people to consider that his treatment of children is also abusive.









I was having a rough patch with my son, and on a whim, picked up The Strong-Willed Child. I thought, "That's my boy!"







With that title, I thought it would give me some perspective on his personality, you know? I vaguely remembered Dobson's name but I thought I had heard something *positive* about him on MDC. In the first chapter, he talked about beating his dog and winning the fight- basically breaking its strong will. I was appalled. I thought, This is how he sets the tone for a book on parenting?!? I wasted more than $20 on that book. I never read one more word of it.


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## Freespiritedjem (Mar 16, 2006)

Wow. I saw the title of this thread and it caught my interest. I've never read Dobson's books, but I've been around a lot of people who have. I grew up being spanked (weapon of choice - a fly swatter,







but not usually to bare skin). My parents didn't seem to fully follow all of those typical discipline philosophies though.

I had mixed feelings about some of what I heard previously heard about Ezzo, but it was recommended to me by an old family friend (mom of 5) who swore by it and another single friend (no kids of her own who has very strong opinions about "out of control brats"). I finally read through Babywise in the first few weeks, but I had a hard time with a lot of what I read, and felt like it was impossible to implement it.

The sad thing is when I was younger, long before having dd or knowing any better, I used to go to a couple of related churches that the pastors naturally promoted Dobson, but more strongly so the Ezzo books. They started advocating even from the pulpit on Sundays that the parents in the church who had incorporated the parenting methods described in the Ezzo books had better and happier kids. It got to a point where some families there were looked down upon in a judgemental way if they didn't follow the Ezzo advice. Thankfully I left those churches long ago.

I already know the bad advice from Ezzo, but always wondered about Dobson. Reading this thread was eye opening in saddest way. I never heard about how he treated his dog, and some of these things just made me sick:

_70. If a child cries more than a few minutes after being spanked, hit them more._

I just can't see this being positive in ANY way.

_72. Spanking should not be "too gentle."_

That one just makes me absolutley cringe in the worst way.
















_74. Dobson recommends a child should respond to a hitting playmate by hitting back._

I like the ideas a couple of you presented here in response to that one.

I am just thankful my eyes were opened to a much better, positive way of parenting. To you moms buying the books so others won't be diluted by them, I applaud you!


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

This whole thread makes me want to barf.

Trying not to lose all faith in world...


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## guest^ (Oct 29, 2002)

That "neck pinch" is what I was taught in Massage school to apply to male patients who were inappropriate.

I too am constantly hiding Dobson and Ezzo books in bookstores and our library.





















:

To answer the question about why a parent would follow through with this abuse, is because they truly believe that breaking a dc's will is the only way to Heaven. So very twisted. I believe dark energy/satan are disguised everywhere-often in the name of God.

Most likely, Dobson dreams of a man spanking him with a wooden paddle.

I have a very strong neck pinch....if only I could grab Dobson or Ezzo's neck....

I hope every passing dog poops in his yard or church yard. Oops! Not very Christian of me to write that huh??!!







:

mp


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*







Good for you.

Dobson scares me. When people tell me that they respect him, I often bring up his anecdote about beating his tiny dog with a belt (because the dog was sleeping in the wrong spot). Sadly, it takes this tale of animal abuse to get some people to consider that his treatment of children is also abusive.









Did you know that the first child abuse case was only brought to trial after the creation of the ASPCA when one of their workers pointed out that the girl was being treated worse than the animals the ASPCA was trying to protect?

On topic: We still get a lot of stuff from "Christian" (some are, some just claim to be) groups that send solicitations to the previous owner. One of them I was tempted to open and maybe send them some money, but then I figured that Focus on the Family thought that a "vicious attack on Dobson" was a bad thing and they *weren't* offering to attack him more if I sent them money, so I tossed it in the recycling. That sentence was the happiest thing I have ever read about Dobson, something like "Dobson has been the victim of a vicious attack" It gave me a warm fuzzy feeling that all was right with the universe.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

On the subject of paddles - growing up we had a paddle - a thick piece of wood with holes drilled in it for extra pain.

My mom would say "this hurts me more than it hurts you."

until one day when I was 12 I said "Oh really, then how about YOU bend over."

I got the beating of a life. But it was the last one.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

sapphire_chan said:


> Did you know that the first child abuse case was only brought to trial after the creation of the ASPCA when one of their workers pointed out that the girl was being treated worse than the animals the ASPCA was trying to protect?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes,I remember reading something about how animal-protection agencies were in place before child-protection agencies. I'm all for the humane treatment of animals but this just baffles me. And I still don't get all the outrage over the dog-beating (yes, it is awful) from people who think he's on target with the treatment of children. In trying to dissuade an acquaintance from spanking, I brought up Dobson. She didn't seem all that horrified until I told her the Siggie-the dachshund story. I find that odd.


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## mom2dzc (Sep 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama*
at a garage sale for $.50 for the express purpose of putting it in the garbage so it would not fall into the hands of someone seeking parenting advice.

What a crappy book.

~Tracy

Wow, what a hero you are







:


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama*
at a garage sale for $.50 for the express purpose of putting it in the garbage so it would not fall into the hands of someone seeking parenting advice.

What a crappy book.

~Tracy


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

ivew never heard of dobson's book... but is there a chance that he is mentally ill... or full of some kind of repressed anger that he wants to take out on childeren... this kind sounds like a total nut, and a real @#%$^%^


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
ivew never heard of dobson's book... but is there a chance that he is mentally ill... or full of some kind of repressed anger that he wants to take out on childeren... this kind sounds like a total nut, and a real @#%$^%^

Yeah, a 100% chance.


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
I'm glad you are helping people make this connection. I too am baffled by why beating small dogs disturbs many people more than beating babies.







: I am a huge animal-lover (with 3 dogs and we would never hit them) but I do think that his advocacy of child-beating is more disturbing than his description of his own animal abuse.

Consider what people think about those who leave a dog tied up in the yard and barking, yet cio in a crib is also a perrsonal choice.


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama*
at a garage sale for $.50 for the express purpose of putting it in the garbage so it would not fall into the hands of someone seeking parenting advice.

What a crappy book.

~Tracy

I just did the same with Babywise.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SugarAndSun*
Consider what people think about those who leave a dog tied up in the yard and barking, yet cio in a crib is also a perrsonal choice.

Wow -- that is a good point.

Also, I used to post on a mainstream board. Of course, I spent a lot of time advocating against hitting children (on the debate board). Many steadfastly defended it. Then, one day someone posted a debate on hitting dogs (a "do--you-or-don't-you" kind of thing) and several of the child-hitters opined strongly against hitting dogs. I was so dumbfounded







:







:


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## hucks_mom (Jul 3, 2006)

I really connected with funshine's post from 6/30. I've also been struggling with "the idea of parental control all the time," and "with anger at my child for his 'defiance.'" I was raised to be afraid of my fundamentalist mother, who did a lot of screaming, belittling, and hitting whenever I did anything "defiant." (Which was hardly ever, because I was so afraid of her!) I think I was sort of a timid kid to begin with, and she really did a good job of squelching whatever spark of will I had. I always told myself that I would NEVER, EVER treat my child that way. Now I'm almost 36 years old, and I have a five year old and a one year old son. Since my older son turned about four and has been going through those natural stages of testing limits and just being a rambunctious little kid, I've found myself sometimes losing it and yelling--sometimes screaming--at him, just like my mother did with me, out of complete frustration and a feeling that I should be able to control his behavior and can't. It doesn't help that when I go home, my mother shakes her head at me when he "misbehaves" and preaches about how I don't "discipline" him. It's so hard to figure out how to shed the mindset that I'm doing something wrong if I can't "control" him. I want so badly NOT to turn into my mother, and I'm trying so hard to model my behavior so that my sons don't fall into the same trap of anger and frustration that I did! A lot of times lately, I feel like I'm failing.

I think I'm going to find the Naomi Aldort book for some inspiration. Thanks again for your post, funshine!


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

hucks_mom, I didn't want to read your post and not reply, especially since it's coming up on three days! Please know the site is quiet b/c of the holiday and it was down, last night, I think (or maybe during the day?).

While I wasn't raised in a household like what is being described, my mom had a temper that came out in yelling, and I find myself responding in that way as well, even though I don't want to! I also have anger management issues that have caused problems with adult loved-ones, and I sometimes have to draw upon techniques used in anger management therapy (10 years ago) to get myself through times that I find tough.

So I wanted to just cyber-hug you for what you're going through...


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Thank goodness for boredom...

I was sitting here, bored because my DD seems perfectly content playing with a cardboard box on her own and completely oblivious to my attempts to play with her...anyway, as I read through this thread, I identified something I should have realized years ago.

My mother is a Dobson-ite. To this day, she criticizes and belittles me, and challenges my parenting methods. She has also used a phrase many times throughout my life that I'm sure had to have come from Dobson. "You may not respect me, but you WILL fear me." Why the hell would she WANT her child(ren) to FEAR her??? It would break my heart if my DD were afraid of me!

I will confess that I have used corporal punishment on my DD from time to time, and sitting here reading this thread has made me realize that what I thought was harmless truly is not.

My daughter is 11 months old, and is breastfed. She has a tendency to pinch and/or bite while nursing. I was told to flick her cheek or hand when she does, so I have been. The last few days I've noticed that she immediately hides her face whenever I flick her hand or cheek. Well, no wonder! She HAS learned from the flicking...she's learned to be afraid of me! So never again. I will find other ways to deal with the pinching and/or biting, and I hope she will forgive me for my mistakes thus far.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

OMG you scared me. When I saw "I bought Dobson's dare to discipline" I thought "and I loved it" was coming next









thank you for surprising me


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie*
Thank goodness for boredom...

I was sitting here, bored because my DD seems perfectly content playing with a cardboard box on her own and completely oblivious to my attempts to play with her...anyway, as I read through this thread, I identified something I should have realized years ago.

My mother is a Dobson-ite. To this day, she criticizes and belittles me, and challenges my parenting methods. She has also used a phrase many times throughout my life that I'm sure had to have come from Dobson. "You may not respect me, but you WILL fear me." Why the hell would she WANT her child(ren) to FEAR her??? It would break my heart if my DD were afraid of me!

I will confess that I have used corporal punishment on my DD from time to time, and sitting here reading this thread has made me realize that what I thought was harmless truly is not.

My daughter is 11 months old, and is breastfed. She has a tendency to pinch and/or bite while nursing. I was told to flick her cheek or hand when she does, so I have been. The last few days I've noticed that she immediately hides her face whenever I flick her hand or cheek. Well, no wonder! She HAS learned from the flicking...she's learned to be afraid of me! So never again. I will find other ways to deal with the pinching and/or biting, and I hope she will forgive me for my mistakes thus far.









mama.

So glad you have stumbled accross MDC. Welcome and hang around for a while! There are lots of wise mamas here that I am constantly learning from.

Hope to see you around GD board often


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)




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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
On the subject of paddles - growing up we had a paddle - a thick piece of wood with holes drilled in it for extra pain.

My mom would say "this hurts me more than it hurts you."

until one day when I was 12 I said "Oh really, then how about YOU bend over."

I got the beating of a life. But it was the last one.
















I'm sorry for being so insentitive, but I admit I laughed when I read this









I laugh because I experienced similar things. And it's sad, it's just funny how well you handle it. "how about YOU bend over?"







:

man, if I ever told my dad that I probably wouldn't be here. Or I'd still have a belt mark on me







:


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## celestialdreamer (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
I'd completely forgotten about the neck pinch. That just brought back some crappy memories










Me too. No wonder I couldnt stand to have my neck/shoulders rubbed for a really long time.







My mom just told me the other day how she thinks Dobson is a parenting genius. Makes me want to vomit.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

oh my GOD! I got the neck pinch all the time. It HURTS.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Geez, growingup , there was this HUGE Gothard curriculum /manual thing under our tv. My dad studied it supposedly.

And James Dobson was the MAN. And Michael Pearl was the *new* MAN. We didnt discover him until i was a teen , thank God.

My parents made some serious mistakes...

Joannarachell.....it sounds like we have the same parents..







every time I read one of your posts, I think "Me too!"

All done in the name of God....makes me sick.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

subbing


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## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

I can totally relate to funshine and hucks_mom. I grew up in a very strict and rigid household. Spanking was the discipline method of choice (even though my mom admits it "didn't work for me". My parents always told us that parents who didn't spank were harming their children by not training them properly etc. They were forever running down other forms of discipline etc. Some how my mom never made us CIO, breastfed us and coslept, but totally missed the boat on discipline. She has a wicked temper and was always yelling, belittling, taking her frustration (at my father) out on us. We definately feared her. Some how I believed them about the spanking though. I made up my mind never to lose it on my children, but I thought spanking was ok. When I finally had my own children, spanking seemed so wrong, but my husband kept convincing me that we had to for their greater good. Because of the way I was raised I always would just suppress my feelings and go with the "authority." So yes, I'm ashamed to admit, I spanked my children. Thank God, my friend loaned me Dr. Sears discipline book. I promptly read the chapter on spanking and closed to book. It was too much for me, at the time, to admit that I was doing something so harmful. How could everything my dh and I were raised with be so horrible. I finally realized my disciplining methods were out of control. My third child is extremely high needs. I found myself yelling at the kids and taking my frustrations out on them and speaking to them in a belittling fashion. Oh my goodness I'm my mother I would think.

Finally it was time for me to face reality. I read the book, did some soul searching and realized I could change the way I was programmed it would just take some work. I am such a better parent since spanking is no longer an option. I actually have to sit down and think about why the behavior is happening and what I can do to make it better. My kids are happier and we have so much more peace in our home. Now I just have to get my husband on board all the way. He doesn't really spank any more but we have to be more gentle. Now I just have to get the stuff out of my mind about "you'll do what I say cause I'm the mom and that's it." I'm realizing (thanks to all you wonderful women) that we treat children as such lesser beings. People are so much more accomidating of adults behaviour. Why can't we do the same for children?

Right now, I'm fighting the To Train Up a Child (Pearl) battle with my "friends". I actually know a lot of people who think it is the discipline book par excellance. Yuck! Even though I did occasionally spank my kids I NEVER would have followed that book. I read part of it the other day and I was FUMING!

Anyway, thank you for reading this long post. It has been a very painful journey, but one I'm SO happy I'm making!


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## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

Oh ya, I forgot to add. My parents discovered To Train Up a Child when I was 14. The promptly decided that it was the answer to all their child problems and started implementing it. Yes, I was 14 and getting switched on the back of my legs for my "rebellion" and "defiance." Dude! That was not cool! My mom & dad made some very serious mistakes, but I love them!


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

And people wonder why we live in such a violent society







: I never even thought to look for those books when I'm out thift shopping but gosh, now I will. I too, saying it how I would had it been done by anyone other than my mom, got the snot beat out of me growing up. I never went at parenting with the thought of gd, never even heard of the concept. What did it for me was how strange it seemed to tell her not to hit but then turn around and hit her. It just seemed wrong. That said I do believe my kids should know how to defend themselves and in general have control over their bodies- they are both in karate. So sure, don't hit but be able to defend yourself







I know that I would have a hard time landing a hit on my kids


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

Oh and as for biting while nursing- I did flick dd lips she she did a couple times. She cried, looking at me like I just crushed her world. Thus making me bawl. I quit doing that and just removed her from the feeding station. She caught on real quick


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

just wanted to pop in to say that the last time my library had a book sale, I bought 3 Ezzos and 2 Dobsons and tore them up on the spot in front of everyone, including one library worker who said she thought Dobson is wonderful (gag) and the other library worker who applauded me while I did it. I had a loud dialogue with the one who thinks Dobson is great and at least got her thinking...

Best 1.25$ I ever spent!


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
just wanted to pop in to say that the last time my library had a book sale, I bought 3 Ezzos and 2 Dobsons and tore them up on the spot in front of everyone, including one library worker who said she thought Dobson is wonderful (gag) and the other library worker who applauded me while I did it. I had a loud dialogue with the one who thinks Dobson is great and at least got her thinking...

Best 1.25$ I ever spent!









i LOVE this! way to go!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Proudly AP*
i LOVE this! way to go!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Awaken (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
just wanted to pop in to say that the last time my library had a book sale, I bought 3 Ezzos and 2 Dobsons and tore them up on the spot in front of everyone, including one library worker who said she thought Dobson is wonderful (gag) and the other library worker who applauded me while I did it. I had a loud dialogue with the one who thinks Dobson is great and at least got her thinking...

That is a great idea, to throw them away or destroy them in front of the people you're buying it from! When I buy books only to throw them away, I don't even want the cashiers thinking that I'm just an average parent buying this average parenting book! I would not want them to think that I think it's a good book! I think I need to start actively going to used book sales and thrift stores just to get these books out of circulation!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
Wow -- that is a good point.

Also, I used to post on a mainstream board. Of course, I spent a lot of time advocating against hitting children (on the debate board). Many steadfastly defended it. Then, one day someone posted a debate on hitting dogs (a "do--you-or-don't-you" kind of thing) and several of the child-hitters opined strongly against hitting dogs. I was so dumbfounded







:







:

Maybe they're just afraid of getting bit, since a pissed off, frightened dog can hurt you pretty bad.

I also think it's so odd that people care more about Dobson's dog than his kids. But I have to admit that I occasionally spank my dog, usually in a kind of "go on and get out of here" way, or to get him to stay down. I don't feel that kind of nauseated awful feeling when I hear of people beating their dogs like when I hear about people beating their kids, either. I feel sorry for mistreated animals in an abstract, sympathetic way. Mistreated children keep me up at night.

I know I'm kind of a species-ist, but I think people that can rationalize better treatment of their animals than their children need to have their heads examined.


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## Kwgrlup (Nov 12, 2005)

I have to say that I really like Dr. Dobson. While I do not like his position on spanking, I do like his views on the family, how he encourages moms to stay home and dads to be more involved with their families. I subscribe to his focus on the family, and like LLL says I take what I like and leave the rest. I also have his book Raising Boys, and it is really interesting to see for example how public schools are geared more towards teaching girls, not boys. He even has a section on homeschooling.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Not to drive this too far off-topic, but there is a recent study that tends to de-bunk the schools are geared to girls not boys sentiment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062501047.html

I think that Debra Baker has done a wonderful job pointing out how much of the stuff you intend to leave gets into one's parenting when you surround yourself with, well, swill, of the sort that Dobson presents. It's not a risk I recommend folks take. There are wonderful, inspirational voices to listen to which do not set up an adversarial relationship between family members.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Can't stand Focus on the Family and their sexist, homophobic poop.







:


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## Kwgrlup (Nov 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
Not to drive this too far off-topic, but there is a recent study that tends to de-bunk the schools are geared to girls not boys sentiment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062501047.html

I think that Debra Baker has done a wonderful job pointing out how much of the stuff you intend to leave gets into one's parenting when you surround yourself with, well, swill, of the sort that Dobson presents. It's not a risk I recommend folks take. There are wonderful, inspirational voices to listen to which do not set up an adversarial relationship between family members.


Chfriend thank you for the link, it is an excellent article. You are so right about surrounding yourself with like minded people. I appricate your imput..







. To me the boy argument was not so much about education, as the approach to teaching boys in school i.e. sitting still, playground play, etc. Any child, given the right support in school and at home, I feel can succeed..







. I am very involved in my local AP group, so I like to think I surround myself with like minded people. I just really like what Dr. Dobson had to say about the family. I get the news letter every month (for both big kids and little guys). I have to honestly say I have never read anything about spanking in his newsletter, or I do not think I would continue to subscibe to it. Most of what I read, reniforces family values we have in our home.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Whew. My instant response when I read the thread title was, "um, _*why??!!??*_" LOL. Good. One less piece of trash cluttering up perfectly good bookshelves.


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## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama*
Dobson's wife whipped their 15 month old daughter for going onto the patio in the rain. Dobson says to show "parental warmth after such discipline" and to have a "Loving conclusion to the disciplinary encounter." (p. 38, Dobson)

I tried to read this book once... I'd gone to the library and selected a range of books hoping to find ideas. I made it exactly as far as this story and closed the book. My dd was only about a year old and I was still trying to find my parenting "style" but I knew that this was just plain wrong.

If I remember right the wife had gone out the front door to do something (get firewood maybe?) and the 15 month old kept trying to follow her. Well duh! A young toddler wants to follow her mom and you punish her?!? I just remember thinking that the wife was at fault for causing this situation, the daughter was just being 15 months old.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomToKandE*
I tried to read this book once... I'd gone to the library and selected a range of books hoping to find ideas. I made it exactly as far as this story and closed the book. My dd was only about a year old and I was still trying to find my parenting "style" but I knew that this was just plain wrong.

If I remember right the wife had gone out the front door to do something (get firewood maybe?) and the 15 month old kept trying to follow her. Well duh! A young toddler wants to follow her mom and you punish her?!? I just remember thinking that the wife was at fault for causing this situation, the daughter was just being 15 months old.

OMG! That poor baby . . . .


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomToKandE*
If I remember right the wife had gone out the front door to do something (get firewood maybe?) and the 15 month old kept trying to follow her. Well duh! A young toddler wants to follow her mom and you punish her?!? I just remember thinking that the wife was at fault for causing this situation, the daughter was just being 15 months old.

Wow, that is horrible. I can't imagine *punishing* my 15mo for going out into the rain! Splashing, giggling, getting some cute pictures, and then coming inside for a warm bath, maybe ...


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