# Okay, I give up. I need some major help with my 3 year old.



## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I wrote in another thread recently that my 3.5 year old DD is "struggling with authority." Now it seems like we are struggling with EVERYTHING, and I am completely overwhelmed. I need help. Big time. I'll try to make a list of the many issues we're having and the ways I've tried dealing with them:

1. She's having gigantic meltdowns All. THE. TIME. The second I say no to her about anything, even if I offer alternatives or choices, she starts crying and hyperventilating and flinging herself around - the works. It lasts for a loooong time. She'll spew out really dramatic statements, like "You CAN'T put away my clothes!!! If you put it away, I won't EVER be able to play anything every AGAIN!!!! If I can't have cereal, I will climb up on the counter and get it for my SELF and then I'll have to run AWAY!!!!" You get the picture. I think she's probably spending, like, half of her waking ours freaking out about something. I try to stay calm through it, but the noise of it just irks me and at some point in the day I end up getting angry. I've tried telling her that she is welcome to freak out like that in the bedroom, but not in the rest of the house. She just says, "NO! I don't WANT to go in the bedroom!" And then we tack on an extra argument about that.

2. She doesn't want to do anything I ask her to do, no matter what. And if I enforce it, she freaks out, as above. I can generally get her to comply using the calm persistence method, but it takes a looooooong time, and more patience than I always have. This is where the authority issue comes into play. I'll say "It's tooth-brushing time." And she'll say, "No, I say it's NOT tooth brushing time. I say it's dance class time!!!" Or I'll say "Okay, your show is over, it's time to turn of the TV, just like we agreed." And she'll say, "NO! That's NOT ACCEPTABLE TO ME!!!!" Or "No, that's NOT the rule in my house!!!!" She's struggling against policies that we've had since her infancy, like no shoes on the bed, or washing hands after she eats. I didn't even think of these things as rules until these struggles started. Now they're cropping up all throughout our day.

3. Constant negotiation. If she's not fighting me, she's bartering or negotiating. If I tell her it's time to get in the car, she might say okay, but then add a bunch of stuff she needs to do first, like "I need to bring my baby." Here's your sneakers. "I want my WATER shoes (has to take off socks)." Then she has to buckle her babies into the car in a particular way, etc. Everything takes forever, and, as a result, I feel like we NEVER get to do anything anymore. It takes us from 7:30 a.m. until 10:30 to get ready to get out of the house (that includes a lot of my morning chores and whatnot). By 10:30, it's almost time for us to have lunch, and we've missed all the preschool activities, and I'm so frazzled I just want to sit and bury my head.

4. I feel like I am lecturing all. day. long. I guess because she pushes me for explanations. And when she pushes, I give them to her, and they involve a lot of "People don't like it when you treat them like ______," "I can hear that you want to make some decisions for yourself, but I can't talk about things with you if you're going to freak out everytime things don't go your way." Sometimes I can't stop myself. She pushes, I keep talking. Ugh. I hate talking. It's awful.

5. I feel like she's always doing something that I need to correct. She always has her hair in her mouth, and I think it's disgusting. I have some REAL ick issues with saliva that I don't think I can get over, and she's constantly licking her self, sucking her hair, sucking her fingers, etc. while expecting to be close to me. It's gross. Spreads germs, and just...yuck. So, that's one big thing I'm always correcting. She always forgets to keep her hands out of her crotch. So that. She's constantly tipping back her chair during meal. And she has this habit of adding assumptions to anything I say, like "We're going to the store." "We're going to the store to buy BREAD?" "No." No, no, no. All day long.

6. I feel like she spends 80% of her time....compromised. In this weird mood in which I can't seem to get through to her. She elongates her words, talks funny, asks thoughtless questions, refuses to try anything, etc. I don't know if this mood means she's tired, hungry, lonely, understimulated, overstimulated, or what. All I know is that it happens a lot, and I just never feel like she's at her best.

7. She is so NOT independent compared to her peers. She would always rather not try. She gives up on hard things almost instantly, and as a result, there are many skills her friends have that I feel like she will NEVER have.

Okay, if you've made it through this whole saga, thank you. I'm guessing none of this is atypical for a child her age, but it's really wearing me down. I just feel confused, like even though my reactions are relatively consistent, they're not helping the problems to go away. So then I feel like everything I'm doing is probably wrong. Help, please! It's a disaster over here. And I have a cold


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Oh, mama, if anyone needs a hug, it's you.

Yes, so much of this is age-appropriate. 3 and 4yos are learning to be more independent, and they crave autonomy, but often that autonomy means doing without mommy and daddy, and they resist it at the same time they crave it. It is perfectly normal for a 3yo to not be more independent in things like getting ready, etc.

But at the same time, this extreme end of things must be exhausting! My usual advice is "give them as much autonomy as you can" for some kids doesn't really resolve the issue. Some kids just operate in every way to maximize the amount of harping we do....just.....ARGH!

So I have no real advice for you. If you have *any* nagging doubts that her behavior is entirely age appropriate, follow it up-- though I see no red flags, keep eyes out for possible allergies, any other trigger that could exacerbate this kind of behavior. I followed my gut, and it turned out I was right!

ETA: If you could make a list or two, say, a schedule and a list of things that need done before getting out the house, one that you put together *with* her input, then perhaps you can refer to the list as the "authority" for those tasks. Don't forget to put what you need to do on the list as well. It might give her some small satisfaction to help you remember everything. Put "teethbrushing time" on the schedule, and include a clock nearby so you can defer to that. I know, this might work better in theory... it might work for a day.... but it might be worth a try.


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## salr (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm not saying this is awesome or anything, but whatever parenting I do in those situations is all about me not totally losing it. So...

I'll run away! ...Oh, no! I would miss you so much!

That's not the rule!... Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is. It's written down in the rule book. tra-la-la.

We're going to buy BREAD?... Um, nope/ Maybe!/ You think we should buy bread?

Sometimes you need a No, this is how it is and I will carry you over there if you can't do it yourself.. But a lot of the time I just think rolling with it is the thing to do. I hear that 3 year olds evenutally get normal. Can anyone back me up on this? LOL. Or if you think I'm advocating being wishy-washy and this is not helpful please share your opinion!! Because I am soliciting advice too.

OP, do you think your kid licks a lot because it drives you crazy and she wants to see your reaction? I think the thing to do is to just say "I don't like that" or "Licking isn't polite"...really calmly.

I seriously need to make a schedule for us too.

Oh, and I hear you on the mood thing. Sometimes I just look at kid#1 and think, What are you tripping on? Pretty sure she's tripping on being a kid. (...And possibly some need for attention/sibling jealousy.)


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## mnj77 (Dec 31, 2006)

It all sounds pretty normal, and annoying! I have a couple thoughts that may or may not be helpful.

1. This sounds like it's escalated recently. My DD is normally compliant, easygoing and delightful. But she went through a period of about 3-6 weeks at exactly 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 and 5.5 when she was impossible. Moody, argumentative, whiny, etc. Every time she snapped out of it just as suddenly as it started. It was uncanny. This summer I was bracing myself for 6.5, but it was smooth sailing this year! Maybe you're in a period of disequilibrium and it will resolve itself? Or maybe she's getting your cold?

2. Which brings me to my second idea. It has helped me during difficult periods to see all of DD's drama as "noise." I just need to let it wash over me and remain disengaged and it will eventually end. You might just try not arguing with her for the entire day. Don't nag her about putting her fingers in her mouth or getting in her crotch - she's not going to be doing any of these things in public in 5 more years or less so you really don't need to harp on it. Don't feel like you need to explain the reasoning for everything to her - I think she probably knows what you would say anyway. Just go about your business and get your things done. Maybe this is what you mean by calm persistence. But maybe the difference is that I wouldn't wait around forever for her to decide to comply (unless I am not in a hurry or I truly don't care). I'm not going to argue about it or yell, but if we need to go somewhere or I want to go somewhere or you're being annoying and I just want to restrain you in your carseat while we drive to the drive-through Starbucks, I am going to make that happen. I will (calmly, without yelling or harsh words and as gently as possible) wrangle you into your clothes, carry you to the car and strap you in your carseat. If it's time for the tv to go off, you can whine about it all you want, but I'm going about my business. Honestly, I think if you're consistent with enforcing but not arguing, you'll see the benefits of it in a couple of years (I know - it seems like a long time!). At 6.5, I haven't seen a tantrum for at least a year and DD generally graciously accepts it (maybe with a small amount of grumbling) and moves on quickly when I turn the tv off or say it's time to leave. I kind of think you have to prove to the kid during the 3-5 period that you're going to make certain things happen whether they like it or not. And you can do it in a gentle manner and acknowledge their feelings about it, but it's still going to happen.

3. I don't think I would put up with DD yelling at me or directly opposing me like you describe. "That's not the rule in my house" would not fly with me. Whenever she's gotten close to that kind of behavior, I've acted totally shocked that she would speak to me like that and stared her down for a second. She apologizes immediately, but she's pretty sensitive to people being displeased with her. I don't know if I have any good advice, but I don't think I would allow that to continue because it's perpetuating the cycle of argument and it must be wearing you down.

Sorry you're frustrated - I think it will get better. And you're not feeling well so that makes everything worse.


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## pattimomma (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *newmamalizzy*
> 
> 5. I feel like she's always doing something that I need to correct. She always has her hair in her mouth, and I think it's disgusting. I have some REAL ick issues with saliva that I don't think I can get over, and she's constantly licking her self, sucking her hair, sucking her fingers, etc. while expecting to be close to me. It's gross. Spreads germs, and just...yuck. So, that's one big thing I'm always correcting. She always forgets to keep her hands out of her crotch. So that. She's constantly tipping back her chair during meal. And she has this habit of adding assumptions to anything I say, like "We're going to the store." "We're going to the store to buy BREAD?" "No." No, no, no. All day long.


I read the whole post but I don't have time to comment on everything. I just wanted to send some







and to throw this out there as something to research - sensory diet for oral sensory seeking behaviors in children.


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

Oh, darling. It can be so hard at this age. I still feel a bit out of sorts from my son's ages of 3 and 4, and he's now 5.

First off, it all sounds like most kids I know of at that age. My son was just like that. Lots of nail iting, hair chewing, nose picking oral fixation stuff. It's mostly passed, though. All that tough talking and arguing and negotiating... Again, very normal. The hard part is that they don't quite get the nuance of respectfully disagreeing or respectfully asking for things. I think you're doing fine, and could probably stand a little extra mommy time for yourself if at all possible. Keep modeling respectful and nonviolent communication to the best of your ability.

I found that books and PBS shows can be helpful with the positive communication. And exploring play therapy techniques for sensory seeking couldn't hurt. If her hands and body are actively working, she might do less of the oral fixation stuff.

Big hugs to you. Try not to lecture too much, and remember this will eventually pass. I am re-reading How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Lidten So Kids Will Talk. I even read all the comic strip stuff with DS, and we talk about how much nicer the interactions are than others. You'll see what I mean if you check out the book. That idea was actually borrowed from an MDC thread.







. Good luck!


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Trying to respond before the nyquil kicks in....

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Mama Amie*
> 
> Oh, darling. It can be so hard at this age. I still feel a bit out of sorts from my son's ages of 3 and 4, and he's now 5.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pattimomma*
> 
> I read the whole post but I don't have time to comment on everything. I just wanted to send some
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mnj77*
> 
> It all sounds pretty normal, and annoying! I have a couple thoughts that may or may not be helpful.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salr*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> Oh, mama, if anyone needs a hug, it's you.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the responses. It was a very screamy evening, and reading what y'all have to say has made me feel much, much better. I can't shake the feeling sometimes that she acts like she's grieving. Sometimes she just seems so sad lately, I really feel like there's an issue under the tantrums.


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## gitanamama (Feb 17, 2011)

In the same boat newmamalizzy. DS (3.5) has become king of the universe. He argues over just about everything- brushing teeth, getting dressed, leaving the house, leaving the park. If I ask what he'd like for breakfast, he'll say "cookies!" When I explain that we can't have cookies for breakfast, but we can have pancakes or eggs, he'll scream "I'm having cookies!" Which will then turn into a tantrum when I serve something other than cookies. He pushes and pushes until I have no choose but to follow through with consequences. For example, today DS was running a ridged music stick against the wall, leaving marks. I asked him to stop, explaining that it was damaging the wall and suggested he do it outside against a tree instead. He kept at it. I explained that I would have to take the stick away if he didn't stop. He kept it. So I took the stick and he immediately flew into hysterical tears and screaming at the top of his lungs. Gagh!

I'm not into authoratative parenting, but there are certain things I need DS to do- like put his clothes on and brush his teeth (both with my help, obviously.) And there are certain things I need him NOT to do. It's exhausting compromising and negotiating every single aspect of our day, and dealing with the fall out when things don't go according to DS's plan.

Sorry for unloading my own saga! No advice- just commiseration. But it sounds like some of the wise mamas who posted above have some good ideas. I just keep reminding myself that this is a phase ( although also a strong part if DS's personality...) and will pass with time. Hugs!


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## salr (Apr 14, 2008)

This last post about not complying and then freaking out reminded me that sometimes it might just be that they're looking to pick a fight, so to speak, so that they can unload some big emotions. That theory helps me feel sympathy for them instead of just being annoyed or really getting caught up in a power struggle.


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## sassyfirechick (Jan 21, 2012)

My not quite 2yo is already heading down this path so I've been trying to nip it in the bud before she escalates (not that I want to imagine these tantrums escalating anymore!). Just this morning, she wanted to get up (still in a crib) and when DH went to get her she flipped. Bit him, broke skin, hyperventilating, the works, all because today she wanted me to get her up. Tomorrow might be different.

I hear you on the wanting her to parrot so you can *hear yourself* - but sometimes less is more when it comes to talking. I hear DD repeat me, tone of voice and all, and I think "god, do I really sound like that?". I've found it best to be silent. If I talk, it's super brief. No long explanation, no conversation, just get down to her level "hey k, I'm going to fold diapers now, join me when you're done" and I walk away. I have an amazing amount of patience as a dog trainer but for my own child, she pushes me. The more I talk, the more she carries on. If your LO is telling you that you aren't listening, she probably means it. Less response will also encourage her to work through situations on her own, thus boosting confidence and allowing her to become more independent at a pace that's comfortable to her.


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## pranava (Aug 11, 2007)

newmamalizzy - Just wanted to sympathize. I'm in the same boat with my 4.5 year old. It does seem like the half year marks amp up the defiant behavior. This opositional attitude has been going on with my DS since before 2. Each situation ends faster if I stay calm, but Lord! I cannot stay calm anymore! He does have some sensory issues - both seeking and avoiding behaviors that make things worse.

We also have the independence issue, or lack of independence rather. He wants things to go his way, but no way does he want to do things for himself. He tells me that he doesn't want to grow up, that he wants to stay small. He even refused to say he was 4 for 3 or so months after his 4th birthday. "I'm still 3 1/2!!(crying)" I can't make sense of this except that maybe growing up and more responsibility is too hard for him and he wants to make sure that I still do everything for him because that's how he knows I love him? And I don't even have a younger child that he may be jealous of. I don't know.

I've heard Terrible Twos, Tyrannical Threes, F-ing Fours, and Fantastic Fives! I'm hoping the Fantastic Fives is true


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

3.5 is a really really hard age. They crave autonomy and create power struggles on purpose to get you and them fighting. It's their instinctive way of trying to separate from you a bit, but at the same time they are scared by the separation. I found this age to be really difficult.

I would do a few things:

1. Whichever PP said to increase sensory activities, etc., I completely agree with that. Look into sensory play and diet and oral sensory issues. It can make a huge difference for many kids of this age, and particularly yours who seems to be sensory seeking based on what you've written. Sensory play is sometimes messy and it sounds like maybe that will be difficult for you? Try to do what you can anyway because a sensory-seeking kid is going to have a hard time without doing some sensory stuff. If you google "sensory activities" you might find some options that aren't too messy.

2. Try to save "no" for things that really really have to be no. The more autonomy you can give the - the more choices you can let them make for themselves - the less they try to make power struggles to get autonomy. If you can put their snack choices where they can reach them and get them together by themselves so they can choose what they have and when, that seemed to be a huge thing in my house at that age. And high sensory snacks for this kid - things that are crunchy, maybe berries with seeds if she likes that, etc. Less yogurt and more crunchy stuff. The oral sensory stuff is more about food options than play.

3. Be really consistent on those things you have to say "no" about.

4. I found it helped to give them little jobs to do at this age. It gives them a bit of a feeling of autonomy without the power struggles. Helping to sort laundry, helping to move silverware from the dishwasher to the silverware drawer - whatever comes up that sounds like something a 3-year-old might be able to do.

5. Remember that this is a temporary stage.







It'll be something new in 6 months. LOL


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> 2. Try to save "no" for things that really really have to be no. The more autonomy you can give the - the more choices you can let them make for themselves - the less they try to make power struggles to get autonomy.


And if nothing else, it gives mama a break from all the conflicts, if you choose not to make one. In some ways, "giving up" like in the title is the best way to see your way clearly. Give up, start from scratch. You will be more likely to examine your own habits critically. Choose your battles very carefully. It might be that she starts calming down with her newfound autonomy, but even if not, it means that you will not have to face down so many fights. Safety. Civility. Let everything else go for now. I like visualizing that I am sitting on a comfy rock in the center of a lively but gentle river, watching the river flow away downstream in front of me, listening to the babble of the water and the rustle of leaves along the banks. Let your thoughts, stresses and cares flow downstream away from you. And breathe.


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## FeliciaFlys (Jan 16, 2012)

Oh man!!!!!
My son just turned 3 in August and we are having the same issues! I don't have any advice either, but wanted to chime in and say you are not alone.

I just posted on two other forums this morning about my boy refusing to get dressed before we go anywhere...I have forgone so many things recently due to his refusals and I HATE being stuck at home. HUGS


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gitanamama*
> 
> In the same boat newmamalizzy. DS (3.5) has become king of the universe. He argues over just about everything- brushing teeth, getting dressed, leaving the house, leaving the park. If I ask what he'd like for breakfast, he'll say "cookies!" When I explain that we can't have cookies for breakfast, but we can have pancakes or eggs, he'll scream "I'm having cookies!" Which will then turn into a tantrum when I serve something other than cookies. He pushes and pushes until I have no choose but to follow through with consequences. For example, today DS was running a ridged music stick against the wall, leaving marks. I asked him to stop, explaining that it was damaging the wall and suggested he do it outside against a tree instead. He kept at it. I explained that I would have to take the stick away if he didn't stop. He kept it. So I took the stick and he immediately flew into hysterical tears and screaming at the top of his lungs. Gagh!
> 
> ...


Ha - if you replace the cookies and pancakes with cream of wheat and kasha, that was EXACTLY how our morning started the day that I wrote this post! Sorry that you're in this boat, too, though it's nice to know I'm not alone.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sassyfirechick*
> 
> My not quite 2yo is already heading down this path so I've been trying to nip it in the bud before she escalates (not that I want to imagine these tantrums escalating anymore!). Just this morning, she wanted to get up (still in a crib) and when DH went to get her she flipped. Bit him, broke skin, hyperventilating, the works, all because today she wanted me to get her up. Tomorrow might be different.
> 
> I hear you on the wanting her to parrot so you can *hear yourself* - but sometimes less is more when it comes to talking. I hear DD repeat me, tone of voice and all, and I think "god, do I really sound like that?". I've found it best to be silent. If I talk, it's super brief. No long explanation, no conversation, just get down to her level "hey k, I'm going to fold diapers now, join me when you're done" and I walk away. I have an amazing amount of patience as a dog trainer but for my own child, she pushes me. The more I talk, the more she carries on. If your LO is telling you that you aren't listening, she probably means it. Less response will also encourage her to work through situations on her own, thus boosting confidence and allowing her to become more independent at a pace that's comfortable to her.


It's funny, until this recent phase hit, I thought we HAD nipped it in the bud! But my whole toolkit from her toddler years, which involved lots of empathy and redirection, is completely obsolete now, unfortunately. I TOTALLY agree that less is more with talking. Totally. But...oh, goodness, I can't even explain why it's so difficult right now. If I address what she's saying, I end up talking way too much. If I don't address what she's saying, she feels ignored. Then I have to explain why I'm not addressing what she's saying. So I end up talking too much. Argh.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> 3.5 is a really really hard age. They crave autonomy and create power struggles on purpose to get you and them fighting. It's their instinctive way of trying to separate from you a bit, but at the same time they are scared by the separation. I found this age to be really difficult.
> 
> ...


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## greenkri (Jun 10, 2013)

Oh my gosh what you describe is my daughter to a T. She's now 4, and has dialed down this behavior a lot but she was exactly like that at 3.5. I think it helps to remember that you can't really logic or reason with them. You can give reasons, but I find I have to simplify them a lot. Getting into the details just doesn't help. I also agree that picking your battles is super helpful, like everyone else has said. Also, try to ignore the outrageous behavior. I draw the line at screaming, but yelling, crying, tantruming I tolerate and ignore as much as I can. When she screams I send her (or take her) to her room. Generally thougg when she gets to that point she does need that time alone to wind down.

It does get better, at least it seems to be getting better here. She's learning to bargain, but in a positive way. After all this time and persistence and patience on my part she knows just pushing and pushing won't get her anywhere. She recently learned to ask "Mama can I go outside....if I PROMISE to stay on the porch?" as I won't generally let them outside without me. She predicted that I'd say no since I was doing dishes and I was so astonished by her well thought out approach I said yes. I do trust her to do what she says of course because she generally does. This is a behavior I want to encourage.

Also, the thing about needing to do "One more thing...two more things..." is a real big thing right now too. I tolerate it as much as I can, but once I have agreed to the one thing it doesn't go beyond that. One more thing means only one, and it's time to move on. I've tried to be a lot less impatient about getting places and how long it takes us to get out the door these days. I'm a stay at home Mom with generally no timeline, so even if I would have preferred to get out the door at 10, it saves my peace of mind to just go with the flow and not be impatient with them. Obviously this changes when appointments come into play.

I do not miss the days when we had to get out early in the morning to get to daycare. This was at the height of her 3.5 year misbehavior and we had SO many fights and issues together then. Everything was about defying what I wanted/needed her to do to get ready. Not fun.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pranava*
> 
> newmamalizzy - Just wanted to sympathize. I'm in the same boat with my 4.5 year old. It does seem like the half year marks amp up the defiant behavior. This opositional attitude has been going on with my DS since before 2. Each situation ends faster if I stay calm, but Lord! I cannot stay calm anymore! He does have some sensory issues - both seeking and avoiding behaviors that make things worse.
> 
> ...


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## ngala2 (Sep 7, 2013)

Hey Mamma,

I have a 4 year old very strong willed little girl too.

When I read this it made me think of the Love and Logic theory. Have you read the Love and Logic for young ones?

A few things that have worked for me. "Would you like to brush your teeth now or in 5 minutes?" if she doesn't choose you do and say next time you get to choose. I used to play a game with my self and see how many times I could give a choice. Do you want to wear your water shoes or these shoes? It really seems to me that she feels powerless. Also something that works for me with little conflict most of the time is I set the timer on the stove. Here is an example. I want my daughter to get out of the bath tub and I know that she will fight me. I say "would you like to get out now or I can set the timer and you can get out in a few minutes." I set the timer and when it goes off she will occasionally push for more time and I say "nope you said you would get out when the timer went off". She usually gets out without trouble. I'm going to set the timer and when it goes off you are going to shut off the tv, I'm going to set the timer and we are going to get our shoes on to leave.

Just a few ideas. Much luck!


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## kaypea (Mar 15, 2011)

My daughter is 4.5, and has been like this for a while. I totally choose my battles, but we are ALWAYS at odds about health-safety-civility.

I have no advice, because I am also at my wits end. Hoping to get some good ideas myself!

Hugs!


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KayPea*
> 
> My daughter is 4.5, and has been like this for a while. I totally choose my battles, but we are ALWAYS at odds about health-safety-civility.
> 
> ...


That's exactly how I feel lately. Like even if I just pare my battles down to health-safety-civility, we are still always having a battle about something. Especially civility. ("You screwed it all up!!!" Her new favorite line.)


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

My only thing to add with all the sound advice you've already gotten -- Preschool actually sounds like a great idea, if you can afford some. I was a SAHM- so my two didn't HAVE to go to preschool. But I did find at 3yo they sometimes NEED more, different stuff, crafts, outside time, different structure. Even just a few mornings a week.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *reezley*
> 
> My only thing to add with all the sound advice you've already gotten -- Preschool actually sounds like a great idea, if you can afford some. I was a SAHM- so my two didn't HAVE to go to preschool. But I did find at 3yo they sometimes NEED more, different stuff, crafts, outside time, different structure. Even just a few mornings a week.


I'm glad you brought that up. Preschool or not is a decision I've been REALLY laboring over for other reasons. I really do think my DD would love it, and I think that the 2.5 hours of unfettered playtime would do her a lot of good right now. She really wants to play with me a lot, and I've been busy, so I'm shutting her down a lot throughout the day. I really think that's contributing to her frustration in a major way, and I bet it has a lot to do with her bahavior lately. BUT - I also am not sure I can justify the expense of preschool while being a SAHM. Still pondering that one.


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## curebaby (Aug 21, 2013)

What about a preschool co-op of sorts? Can you network?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I am a SAHM with a preschool kid in preschool. My older one was in preschool too. I feel like it was really good for them, and allows me to get stuff done around the house so I can more present for them when we're together. It's been really good here. I wouldn't feel guilty about it, though I know it is expensive. I agree with the co-op preschool idea -that can be less expensive.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Oh, yes, my 3.75 year old is going through a challenging time too and oy do I hear you! Screaming, meltdowns or hitting herself when she doesn't get her way, she's tried hitting others too, but that got shut down quickly. I'm trying to think up alternative with her (using her words, hitting a pillow, etc.) that are acceptable ways of letting out her big feelings, I still need to get some kind of physical outlet for daycare as they don't have handy pillows sitting around like at home. Testing every single thing. It really gets so wearing! I try to keep the attitude that it is her job to test the rules, but geez does she really have to test each one 209834502348 times? Doesn't ever want to go to bed no matter how tired she is.

So not really any advice, but lots of commiseration! Some days she is great, some days she isn't and the worst days I am really tired and have no patience and yeah, then I start yelling







and it makes everything worse.


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## winter singer (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pattimomma*
> 
> I read the whole post but I don't have time to comment on everything. I just wanted to send some
> 
> ...












Been there.....


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## MountainMamaGC (Jun 23, 2008)

3 was so bad for us. Sometimes I had to decide if it was worth leaving the house with her. There are all kinds of tips, but really sometimes they just need to grow up, and nothing but time will help that.


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## curebaby (Aug 21, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MountainMamaGC*
> 
> 3 was so bad for us. Sometimes I had to decide if it was worth leaving the house with her.


OMG, so true! Like there needs to be a "housebound mothers of preschoolers" support group!


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## Heronsister (Aug 28, 2013)

I hear you!!!

Mine is 9 now. She has grown out of a lot of it, and she still does a lot of it. Quite often, I think it's as much about me growing up, as about her growing up.

One of my hardest lessons has been to stop talking. Those endless discussions just about drove me crazy, created more conflict, and often led to me losing my temper (not a good scene). I've had to give up having the last word. (Grr! I like to be right! I want her to acknowledge that I'm right!) Nowadays, I'll give an explanation once, maybe twice, and then say, 'what was my answer the first time you asked?' And if she carries on arguing, I just ignore her and make a massive invisible effort nt to get drawn in. Not easy!! especially if she's hurling abuse at me. I used to feel totally helpless and powerless when she refused to comply. These days, I don't necessarily say anything, I just carry on acting as if she is going to do what she was told. Astonishingly, she does. It's downright weird to hear her going on and on about screen time or something, while turning off the computer and putting on her shoes to go out. And the abuse has decreased a lot since I started ignoring it.

I wanted to be the parent who led gently and kindly and explained things. My child needs a very authoritative (not authoritarian) parent who defines right and wrong very clearly and holds very strong boundaries.

That whole reflective listening thing doesn't go very well either, especially if I do it with the agenda that 'we'll get this empathy out of the way and then she'll do what I want.'

Your child sounds like mine -- not quite average. A bit more extreme than most. (Yes, it's probably typical behaviour for her age, but a more extreme version, which parents of less intense children just don't get.) Gradually I'm learning what my child's issues are. They are mild, so professionals don't pick them up. They aren't around them all the time in an intense one-on-one relationship. I'm learning to be my child's advocate, to be on her side. Things that trigger her: too much stimulation, hunger, tiredness, too much noise, unexpected changes of plan, unfamiliar situations, anything she perceives as unfair. The triggers may be different for your daughter: diet, lack of stimulation, whatever.

The Louise Bates Ames books (Your Child at One, at Two, etc.) suggest that children often go through a period of disequilibrium at the half-year times (e.g., 3.5, 4.5 etc.) and are more in equilibrium on the years (e.g., 3, 4, 5). My daughter certainly goes through periods of disequilibrium that are really, really difficult. Their timing is unpredictable because developmentally, she's at her age from some stuff, ahead for other stuff, and behind on other things. At those times, survival is the best we can do. When she's in equilibrium, we recover.

It IS hard, very hard indeed, and it WILL get better. All we can ask of ourselves is to do our best -- and I know we do try our best.

Oh -- and when it's really tough, I often say a little prayer along the lines of, 'I can't handle this -- how can I respond lovingly and effectively?' Very often, just taking a moment to think that thought gives me the space to step out of the conflict.

Big hugs, mama, and hang in there!


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Blimey. Another 3+ thread I have to subscribe to!!!!

Right there with you I'm afraid, with our completely loco 3.25 year old girl. She's been kidnapped and replaced by some kind of cute looking but entirely shouty, horrid (sometimes, well...a lot) little alien/monster kid in the last 5 or so weeks.

We are having nearly all of your list too - some very badly, especially numbers: 1 (oh dear, oh dear), 2, 6 (weird isn't it? mine spaces out and doesn't answer me), and definitely number 7.

My thread along the same lines has died it seems :-( ....so will watch yours here as nothing much has changed for us unfortunately.

Our preschool experience started off blazingly well three weeks ago - but since the first two good days, we've had one refusal...and then yesterday a sneaky departure by her parents (I know, I know...we had not planned it that way...but the teachers said...just this once) - she was okay, and had a good day, but was mad at me when she came home. THEN she forgave me.

It is not going as I'd hoped at all unfortunately, even though I know she is enjoying it. She is just so insecure about being away from me right now (could be the preschool that caused it??) that sometimes she wants me to not go upstairs whilst she's having dinner, but instead, stand there and hold her hand.

I'm really hoping I can talk her out of this kind of stuff ....and / or reassure her somehow - we would really, really, really like her to continue with preschool.

I'm considering doing some role-playing with dolls etc....just haven't had time to sort it all out in my mind - too busy dealing with the crazy.

We are also struggling a lot because she won't do ANYTHING for herself at the moment...prefers instead to shout the house down to get ME to do it for her. She's not spending time with Daddy anymore - it has to be ME...and is being so clingy I can't even take a five minute break away.

Nothing is good enough for her...nothing is right - "NO!! NO!!! DON'T PUT THE CATERPILLAR (toy) THERE...HIS BUM IS FALLING OFF! (Move caterpillar) "NO!!! NOOOOOO!!! THAT'S NOT RIGHT...HIS HEAD IS GOING TO FALL OFF THE CHAIR THERE!! NOOO!! STOP!!! DON'T!!! MOVE HIM!!!! MOVE YOUR ARM!!!...." On and on...relentlessly about everything all day it seems. Shouting, screaming. It's enough to make you weep. And I have done a few times now.

Gah. Gah. Gah.

I need help too. Some days I think I actually need to move a nanny in!!!! I wish I had that kind of option.

I had a really rough time when she was a baby, then we had two good years - but this is by far the worst so far. It's awful not to know what to do about it all...and to have SO MUCH going wrong at the same time. These kids are hitting us not just with both barrels, but ALL the behaviour barrels possible...all at the same time!? How do they even have the energy!?

We are trying to do everything at once to help too - give her more love/attention (trouble is, she doesn't want to do anything either much...or if she does, everyone is doing everything wrong and she gets very upset very quickly, like yours) - try and chill out with her...but she doesn't want to read stories with me any more. Play in the garden? NO! Go to the beach? NO!!

Yeah - and on and on and on.

We're wondering in our house whether to try any discipline methods at all right now, because seriously, she just seems to have completely lost her marbles!

It seems like trying to teach a crazy or drunk person the road rules - i.e. impossible??

In her five minutes a day that she's 'normal' and happy (actually, more like a dozen of these periods...but still interspersed with the angry alien the rest of the time) - we can talk...and have fun - and things occasionally stick...but, omg - crisis. That is the word for it....living in the middle of an ongoing crisis.

I read recently that it helps if we are not scared of our children. Well, I'm not scared of my daughter...but I do find I'm very scared and anxious of the consequences of all this negativity...I don't sleep at all well anyway (insomnia) - and lately sleep has been filled with teeth grinding and extra wake ups.

We are trying to ensure she is sleeping between 11-12 hours a day...but a lot of the time she is undersleeping (10.5-11) and wakes up in a foul mood too - or wakes up crazy early like this morning, at 5am...then is hideous all day long.

Anyway - you can see from the above, and my thread, that I have no useful advice whatsoever.

So sorry about that....

Sorry about the ranting too.

But I'll be watching.....!

And, those of us who are posting these 3+ nightmare threads - should totally try and update them a bit down the track, to give others some hope (hopefully!!!) - as I find it more alarming that I just see similar posts about 4 year olds...then 5 year olds.....ARGH!! That IS frightening.

G

x


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Hugs mama <3 <3 I so remember that age, especially with my oldest (who was really like an only at that point because her bro was just a baby.)

I just want to say, you are getting some great advice and it sounds like you are so gentle and so patient. I really think you gotta relax though!!! It totally sounds to me like you are getting sucked into little-kid arguments all day. I know it feels rude not to engage but I think you need to set the boundary. I am a believer in the idea that you can't tell your child what to do, but you can tell your child what you will do. (My 3yo: I don't wanna go home!! Me: Sorry I know it's hard to leave but it's time to go. Would you like to walk or should I pick you up? Him: Waaah! I don't wanna go! No! I have to get my dinosaur! etc. Me: I have to leave now or I'll be late to pick up your sister. I'm getting in the car. Here's your jacket if you want it.) I'm not saying this works no-tears every single time but I cannot spend all day arguing with a preschooler. You are just not gonna win.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *newmamalizzy*
> 
> It's funny, until this recent phase hit, I thought we HAD nipped it in the bud! But my whole toolkit from her toddler years, which involved lots of empathy and redirection, is completely obsolete now, unfortunately.


YES!! I think that's exactly what makes this age so hard. Don't worry, you will find your way.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Sorry another thing I wanted to say here before my internet browser slowed down to a grinding halt (what is up with that? Is it this site or is it me??)

At 3-3.5 with my oldest was when I had to sit down and figure out how I wanted to parent. I read a lot of books. One thing I came across a lot was offering a choice or working out a solution. For my DD 3 was a little young for this strategy to work right away. It took lots of practice on both sides.

You might see a lot of threads about crazy 3yo's and then crazy 4 or 5yo's but they aren't always the SAME kids. Everyone has that one age that is really difficult. People are on here because they need help. The people who have found something that's working for them just don't post as much.


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## fullofhope08 (Feb 16, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> 3.5 is a really really hard age. They crave autonomy and create power struggles on purpose to get you and them fighting. It's their instinctive way of trying to separate from you a bit, but at the same time they are scared by the separation. I found this age to be really difficult.
> 
> ...


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## fullofhope08 (Feb 16, 2008)

Oops, my previous post shows up as one long quote. Just the first bit is quoted from another post. Rest is my rant


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Just wanted to post a quick update that things are going a lot better around here. It seems to have been a waiting-it-out thing. She's still argumentative, bossy, and weird on a regular basis, but I don't feel like we're in crisis mode anymore, and I've seen some amazing changes in DD lately. I think the first thing that happened was that we went to a restaurant and my DD had her heart set on macaroni and cheese, but they didn't have it. Her normal response would have included lots of loud screaming and hard to control physical flailing and whatnot, ending in her removal from the restaurant. Instead, she started to cry. She cried and cried in a sad, heartbroken way. Not tantrum. Cry. And then she slumped her head on me and was silent with her head down for 10 minutes. It's become a bit of the norm - instead of a tantrum, she'll droop her face and shoulders and walk away slowly, or lie down on the floor with a sad, sad face. Some crazy part of me jumps for joy every time she does this because it shows that she's suddenly able to accept the negative answer instead of battling against it. Granted, she still battles, but sometimes she just accepts and is sad. It's a big step for her.

If there's anything that I think helped, it's been counting to 10 a lot. I realized at some point that I was being REALLY impatient with her, and maybe I just needed to give her a little bit more time. So if I ask her a question or ask her to do something I count to 10 in my head before getting angry that she hasn't responded. It actually seems like 10 is about the right number for her. She will often respond or comply if I give her that amount of time without nagging or getting annoyed. Who'd have thought?

I did also take the advice of many on here to back off - REALLY back off my expectations for her. I've been very careful in my phrasing of things so that it's clear to me and to her when I'm asking her to do something that is not optional. It was nice for both of us to have her getting in trouble less, so the feeling in the house was nicer and I think there was a positive feedback loop that helped us both out of the hole.

Mostly, though, I think it was just time 

Thanks again for all the advice and support, and hugs to those dealing with troublesome 3-year-olds. It's HARD.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

^ Jealous of you!

When's our 'phase' going to end?

(Great news though - wish mine would slump and be sad etc - we are still going nuclear over most things...including, and especially mummy-separations, and very very minor frustrations.)










G

x


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts in my crazy-3-year old thread. Are things still going okay?

What are your thoughts for the preschool thing (you read my thread, but preschool going well for us now! Knock on wood.)

G

x


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