# those who DO do some form of time-out, please come in



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

i've been thinking about this a LOT lately. DD is just getting to that age (she's 20 months) where it seems like she does everything she possibly can to test limits. (e.g. oh, you said no wearing shoes on the bed? well, what if i bring a pair over and put them on the bed. is that taboo too? you said no markers on the couch? not even one? what about if i bring it close to the couch and pretend to draw on it? you said not to hit you, but what about biting? what about just hitting the bill of your hat? what about hitting the cat on the head instead?)

and i know that this is normal and natural. but it seems like she REALLY wants to know where the limits are, almost like she's _demanding_ for us to really insist on them and almost feels relieved when we do. i've been warning her if she's using a toy inappropriately (like banging a wooden mallet on the door instead of on the toys it's for, or throwing hard objects or books on the floor), then putting it up--and she seems to actually LIKE that i put it away and move on to something else.

tonight she was hitting us, hitting us, hitting us, over and over. i could tell DH was on the verge of screaming at her. i told her, as i have many times, that hitting hurts our feelings and our bodies and makes us not want to be with her because it is not fun to be hit.

so she kept hitting, then she bit me while nursing, then bit me again on the hand when i said no bites, then hit me when i put her down. so i finally just took her and placed her on the futon in the dining room, not saying anything. when she got down, i put her back. i stood in the doorway so she could see me but faced away from her, and i only told her *once* "mommy wants you to sit there for 1 minute because i am tired of being hit"--then i just kept putting her back, not saying a word, supernanny style. it only took about 5 times before she sat for a full minute. she cried a little but not much, kind of accepted it.

then when i went to get her, i told her "mommy asked you to sit here because it is NOT okay to hit mommy and daddy. it hurts us and makes us not enjoy our time with you. we want to enjoy being with you and playing with you, but we cannot play with you if you're hurting us." then i told her "we love you very much and we want to enjoy our time with you" and i hugged her, and we went to play with her trains.

she was MUCH, MUCH better after this. she only hit like maybe once after this, when she'd been hitting us ALL. NIGHT. LONG.

it was our first "time-out" of any kind. i never necessarily planned on time-outs; it just kind of happened that i reached my limit and felt it was right in the situation. and it was pretty much time-out lite considering she could see me the whole time, she wasn't truly confined just gently placed back in the same place. it really seemed to calm her down and make her realize there IS a limit, and if you hit me over and over, you are going to come up against that limit. and somehow knowing that, she seemed to relax and we enjoyed playing after that.

it almost made me feel like she NEEDS time-out on things like this (the big stuff--hitting and repeated violent "infractions"*), in order to feel secure. does this sound crazy? i mean, maybe when she's older, we can talk through things without time-outs. it would certainly help if i could ask her, "why are you hitting mommy?" and she could tell me "because i'm mad you won't read this book to me" or "because my teeth hurt," and then we could talk through other options for conveying her wishes and feelings besides hitting--but she's just not that verbal yet.

anyway, is it insane to think i have the kind of child who "needs" time-outs??? help! i don't want to fall off the GD wagon, but i know there are others who do this around here.

*wanted to add that i've also been thinking that i definitely believe in logical or natural consequences--if you repeatedly throw your books, i'm going to put them on a high shelf and have you play with something else. if you draw on the couch, the markers go away. but when the action is hitting, what is the logical consequence? the closest thing i can think is to withdraw my presence so she CAN'T continue the behavior, and time-out does that.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

My little guy is 21 months, and I honestly can't imagine doing something like this with him. I understand what you mean about the "demanding what the limits are" part, but when Daniel gets like that, and is all out of control, I can also sense how bewildered he is by the whole thing. You can almost see his little mind going "Dang! I've got POWER!!! I don't want it!"

But where you lose me is in describing a time-out that's basically withdrawing affection by turning your back on her and essentially saying "Your behavior right now is so bad, I want nothing to do with you." That seems really heavy for a 1-year-old.

I really think distraction and redirection are the best methods of "discipline" for this age, along with a time-in. Instead of pushing them away, hold them closer. Show them how to use their lips to give kisses and their hands to touch gently. If they have to bite, get them a teething ring or peel an apple. If they have to hit, bat at handkerchiefs or playsilks or balls.

I don't think any child, especially a one-year-old, needs Supernanny-style discipline. I hope you'll reconsider that just because this seemed to work, it doesn't mean it's the best thing for building trust and relationships.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


so she kept hitting, then she bit me while nursing, then bit me again on the hand when i said no bites, then hit me when i put her down. so i finally just took her and placed her on the futon in the dining room, not saying anything. when she got down, i put her back. i stood in the doorway so she could see me but faced away from her, and i only told her *once* "mommy wants you to sit there for 1 minute because i am tired of being hit"--then i just kept putting her back, not saying a word, supernanny style. it only took about 5 times before she sat for a full minute. she cried a little but not much, kind of accepted it.
FWIW remember even super nanny says to inform the child why you've put them in time out.. I'm personally not totally against them though I;d suggest looking at a comfort corner a special spot she can go (possibly with your hel) to regain compoure and calm down rather than a place of issolation where she is sent to feel "bad" about her action.

Deanna


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

I use time outs. My ds is 2.5 and we have been using them for a while. Our problem is his aggression. I do home daycare and he literally tackles and sits on top of two 4 year old boys. Until they cry. And then he laughs. So our newest rule is no wrestling of ANY kind. From ANyone. If you wrestle, you have to sit on the couch... because if you can't play nice, then you can't play. It seems logical to me.

Thats about the only thing I use it for though. ANything else I just help him work through it. I am totally at a loss for this agression stuff.... and mostly his reaction to the other kids yelling and screaming for help.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 

I really think distraction and redirection are the best methods of "discipline" for this age, along with a time-in. Instead of pushing them away, hold them closer. Show them how to use their lips to give kisses and their hands to touch gently. If they have to bite, get them a teething ring or peel an apple. If they have to hit, bat at handkerchiefs or playsilks or balls.


i get what you're saying, i really do, but i've tried this kind of thing for MONTHS and it has not worked in a LONG time. at all.

i keep reading that kids this age need to learn "gentle," and show them gentle, and all that--this worked when she was about a year old. for the last few months, i know she definitely _knows_ the concept of gentle, knows what is gentle and what isn't, and she is refusing to be gentle. on purpose. to get a reaction. to see where the limits are.

i don't think turning my back on her is "withdrawing" affection any more than turning my back on my DH when he outrageously hurts my feelings is. when someone hurts you, you show it! i don't see why that's bad to do; i really don't









now if she hurt me and i turned my back for an extreme period of time or had a reaction far out of proportion, then yes, that's not good. but if i am right there, just not interacting with her for 1 minute, then coming over and explaining and going back to "life as normal," then i don't see that as withdrawal of affection. do you? honestly?

and for the other poster, i fear i wasn't clear. yes, i told her i was going to put her down because she had hit me. and then i did it. and then i did remind her one time why; otherwise i didn't talk to her. i hope that makes sense now.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NotTheOnlyOne* 
I use time outs. My ds is 2.5 and we have been using them for a while. Our problem is his aggression. I do home daycare and he literally tackles and sits on top of two 4 year old boys. Until they cry. And then he laughs. So our newest rule is no wrestling of ANY kind. From ANyone. If you wrestle, you have to sit on the couch... because if you can't play nice, then you can't play. It seems logical to me.

Thats about the only thing I use it for though. ANything else I just help him work through it. I am totally at a loss for this agression stuff.... and mostly his reaction to the other kids yelling and screaming for help.

yeah, no, i hear you. this is very similar. the more she hurts us, the more we resist it, the funnier it is. same thing with the cats. it's just not okay. sometimes i worry she's going to be a sociopath
















it makes sense to me that if someone isn't playing nice, you don't play with them, right? otherwise aren't you teaching your kid to be a doormat??







:


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 

i don't think turning my back on her is "withdrawing" affection any more than turning my back on my DH when he outrageously hurts my feelings is. when someone hurts you, you show it! i don't see why that's bad to do; i really don't









Well, because you're the grown-up and she's a baby. She isn't trying to hurt your feelings, and I think ascribing adult motives to her actions is setting yourself up for power struggles.

Quote:

now if she hurt me and i turned my back for an extreme period of time or had a reaction far out of proportion, then yes, that's not good. but if i am right there, just not interacting with her for 1 minute, then coming over and explaining and going back to "life as normal," then i don't see that as withdrawal of affection. do you? honestly?
Honestly? Yes. I see a "supernanny-style" procedure where you wordlessly lead her back to a futon and then turn your back on her as a withdrawal of affection. You know it's done in a minute, but she doesn't have a pocket watch. She doesn't understand that you're going to be back to loving on her and talking to her soon.

I get that it's frustrating. Like I said, I have a little guy about her age, and he's doing the same thing. Testing limits is developmental. And showing little ones where the limits are is a good thing. But I'm not into punishing 1-year-olds. If Daniel is bent on beating the crap out of me, I play a game with him, I change the scene. I just don't understand why it has to be driven home with a punishment. She'll get it eventually. I promise.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 

I get that it's frustrating. Like I said, I have a little guy about her age, and he's doing the same thing. Testing limits is developmental. And showing little ones where the limits are is a good thing. But I'm not into punishing 1-year-olds. If Daniel is bent on beating the crap out of me, I play a game with him, I change the scene. I just don't understand why it has to be driven home with a punishment. She'll get it eventually. I promise.

i hope you won't take this as snarky: how do you have the emotional reserves to ignore him beating you and play a game? really? i don't have that; i seriously do not. do you not reach a point where it's hit him back or put him down and walk away? because i reach that point!


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

you can and should establish a boundry and can establish personal space for your self. You shouldn't be the countinued subjected to being hit bit pinched ect.. however I'd encourage you to get out of the mindset that your child needs to feel bad to act good so to say. This for me doesn't mean never settinga child down and saying flat out enough I will NOT allow you to hurt me, actually I would/will and have done this.
Its this part that I feel crosses too much into the punitive mind set..

Quote:

i stood in the doorway so she could see me but faced away from her, and i only told her *once* "mommy wants you to sit there for 1 minute because i am tired of being hit"--then i just kept putting her back, not saying a word, supernanny style. it only took about 5 times before she sat for a full minute. she cried a little but not much, kind of accepted it.
by keeping your self in view but faces away that to HER might have seemed like you were delebrating with drawing affection. Instead I'd try changing your words. Biting hurts we don't bite you need to calm down I'm going to go (give her a tangible task say get the laundry from the dryer, brush my teeth ect) I want you to sit here and calm down (offer something to help a blanket favorite stuffed animal) I'll be back so we can cuddle nicely. Come back sit with her and talk (as best you can) and use the time to make ammends. Timeouts should be a time out of the hussle of life to re evulate a time to help teach calming and coping skills she can use not just today but in a year or 5 or 15 ect. HAving her sit for a minute then re joinging might defuse the situation for the day/moment but its really not teaching her much. Teaching her that when shes angry she can fiind a safe space to regain composure is something shes can take and use pretty much her whole life.

Deanna


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

A baby is a baby. Yes, moms get frustrated. If you need to take a moment to regroup, then you need to take a moment. That's a whole different creature than planning to punish a baby who is too young to have the self control you're expecting.

There are lots of other options. Depending on the child, that is the time I might choose to use what my mom always called "the voice" Combined with "the look" it can often end a cycle like that. Not yelling, but absolutely no-nonsense- "hitting is not okay. It hurts people."

I even think it's perfectly fine to either remove yourself enough to not be hit or hold them in a way you won't be hit. It's a reasonable request to not be hit









For dd though, as hard as it was, it always worked better to make it into a playful situation of some sort.










-Angela


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

ok my "baby" isn't a baby shes 4, but she is delayed and we just started doing time outs, I don't turn my back on her, I look at her, she can see me. I don't smile, I don't frown, i just have a blank face.

I think it works better then everything I have been trying for the last 4 years of her life, at the first time out she got.. she totally understood what was going on and she totally excepted what was happening. my daughter does not communicate like a 4 year old, she communicates like a 2 year old. so I understand the communication barrier very well.

Now she gets a time out, maybe once a week. before it was maybe twice a day.

She understands the limits now, and when she does do something she isn't suppose to she stops right away, and says "Im sorry" and we go do something else. I give her a big hug for knowing she crossed the line, and thats that. I find that I am way calmer now, I don't get so stressed that I feel like the big red vein in my head is going to pop. everything just flows so much nicer then when I tried redirection and time ins over and over and over for years.

So I think what your doing is totally fine as long as she gets it. I don't think time outs are right for every kid but sometimes you have to go with what works for everyone. what makes it less stressful for YOU to get through YOUR day, not what everyone else does or thinks you should do.. kwim?

If you would have told me 5 years ago that I would have a child and put her in a time out, I would have laughed and said no way, not my kid.

it works for her and me, and everyone breaths a little easier.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I do time-outs with my older kids, but not with the baby.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

it sounds like youre just at the end of your rope and dont know what else to do but time out. maybe if you read more on the subject and found some alternatives you wouldnt have to resort to punishing your baby.

here are some links i think would benefit you

http://www.awareparenting.com/timeout.htm

http://www.awareparenting.com/twenty.htm


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

I do time outs.







sorta

Ok, I put her in a chair and sit in front of her and talk with her about why she is sitting there.

Only for things that have exhausted all other creative ideas. Not as my main source of "discipline". And also only for things that have no logical concequince. yk?

I don't feel bad, I don't feel like its punishment, I don't feel like I'm abandoning her or isolating her or that she feels abandoned and sad, theres no crying involved. Its simply that we have to discuss the situation and come to a conclusion and we need a safe place to do it. Sometimes the solution is that if she keeps doing X we keep coming back to the chair and stopping the fun thing we were doing. Sometimes its something else.

The reason I say its "time out" is because it is timed. my explanation takes no longer than 20 seconds. And we sit there for a minute.









Yes, she's only 16 months. But, she understands.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo (Dec 7, 2008)

Personally, I believe there's no such thing as one parenting approach that works with every (or even most) children. I know I've had to adjust my techniques for each child. What Beth responded to didn't work for Cali, what Cali responded to didn't work for her twin, and so on. Time outs worked great for three of my six children. For Jesse and Davin, the separation and withdrawal of affection was traumatizing, and a more AP/GD approach is much better. I trust myself to be able to tell when my child is being hurt by my methods, and to adjust accordingly. I don't think there's anything wrong with what the OP did, since it seemed to have worked well for her child.

Of course, that's just my opinion, which is probably worth what you paid for it.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Several thoughts:

"Time outs" as such aren't recommended by anyone for kids under 3, because they can't link the "crime" with the "time" very well. So, you have to sit here for one minute per year as punishment is the kind of time out I mean.

That being said, we did a "time out" or cooling off period when our kids hit. It worked one of two ways. Either I got up and walked away briefly saying "Ouch that hurts" or they got plopped in their room for a minute while I cooled off. While I'm sensitive to the "love withdrawal" argument, I'm also sensitive to the fact that walking away is probably less damaging to my kids than mom screaming like a maniac, or worse, mom hitting back because that's what my reflexes want to do.

We've done a few typical time outs when our kids were in the 3-4 range, needed to cool off and it wasn't happening without us removing them from the environment. We'd exhausted options of giving a hug or redirecting or trying something else.

Even then, it wasn't a "sit here for X minutes" kind of thing (well, I think we tried that ONCE and both dh and I agreed it was a stupid thing to do). Instead it was a "you're welcome to join us when you've calmed down". For our ds especially, he needed to be physically separated from us to achieve that. He's easily overstimulated, and being near the 'source' of the problem kept him revved up. Alone, he'd storm for a bit, and then let us comfort him. With us, he'd keep going.

Our kids are older now (4 1/2 and 7 1/2) and will now storm off to their room when they need to. So, I don't think we scarred them unduly.

Other ideas:
For a toddler (well actually for anyone, from toddler on through grown-ups), it's much more effective to tell them what TO do, than what not to do. Not only does this teach them what's appropriate, it gets their minds off the undesirable activity. So, "markers stay at the table" is better than "no markers on the couch". Notice the difference between: "Shoes on the floor" vs. "no shoes on the bed".

At 21 months it does take time to learn things. Lots of time. Lots of repetition. Especially for things that provoke a reaction. It's really interesting to see what mom and dad do when they're frustrated!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
i hope you won't take this as snarky: how do you have the emotional reserves to ignore him beating you and play a game? really? i don't have that; i seriously do not. do you not reach a point where it's hit him back or put him down and walk away? because i reach that point!

I'm unsure where you got the idea that I sit around and let my kids beat me up. As I said, I redirect, I use the opportunity to teach, I try to meet a need, I distract. And yes, I even put him down and walk away. But that's a world apart from putting him on a chair, refusing to let him up, and refusing to speak to him until some arbitrary time limit is over. *That's* punishment.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
I do time-outs with my older kids, but not with the baby.









It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

We do time outs. Sort of. It is reserved for hurting people or things. Obviously, we try other things first. We redirect, offer alternatives, put the toy away, etc. Usually, I pick them up and we go to another room and try to actively get involved in something. I'll say something like, I need help mixing up cookies. Can you get the mixing spoons please?
I really try to get them INVOLVED in something else.

As for how we actually DO the time outs. We've created a cuddle corner. When all else fails. I sit the child in the spot and sit in front of them facing them. If the child wants to hold hands, I will; but I don't force it. I tell them that their behaviour is dangerous, and they can't play with us while they are doing that. I use as few words as possible in as calm and sweet a voice as I can muster. I tell them that we can sit here together like this until they feel like they can play better, or I offer other things. Would you like to sit here and read a book? Would you like a stuffed animal or blanket to snuggle? Are you hungry? etc. There is no "time limit" we just sit there until the child is ready to play without hitting, biting, throwing blocks, etc.

I think annettemarie's point that we can't assign adult motives to children is a good and valid one. Even though hitting hurts, she may or may not be meaning to hurt you. At this age, they are starting to do so many things for themselves it is hard to remember that they are still babies. I hope my post helps some. If you find something that works for you and your child, I think that is important. They only thing in your post that made me uncomfortable was the removal of your presence. Perhaps you can find a way to still "be there" with here.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

The Five Steps are a technique developed by Lisa Kuzara-Seibold, Minister of Early Childhood Education at Word of Grace Church in Mesa, Arizona. I had the amazing opportunity to mentor under her while employed by the Department of Early Childhood Education as a Sunday School Teacher. This example of The Five Steps is an adaptation of what is taught in her training manual.

Step 1: State your request and offer a reason.

Example: "You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up. It is time to leave."

Step 2: Restate your request.

Example: "You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up."

It is helpful to get down on the child's level and touch your child while looking in his eyes to make sure you have his attention.

Step 3: Offer help.

Example: "You are having a hard time stopping your play. Can you stop playing and clean up or do you need my help?"

Whether your child requests help or not respect their wishes. Help is not a punishment, it is help.

Step 4: Help.

Example: "You are not stopping your play. Here, let me help you."

Again, help is not a punishment. It is an acknowledgment that your child is unable to stop on their own. This may be due to a lack of maturity, being tired or hungry, or simply not wanting to stop.

Step 5: The Bear Hug.

Stand behind your child and wrap your arms over her shoulders and across her chest. Hold her arms with your hands if you are concerned about her striking out. Squat down to her level and speak gently in her ear that you are helping her stop herself and that you will let her go when she can stop herself. Gentle pressure on her shoulders can keep her from kicking or attempting to run from you. This is not a punishment. It is providing outside boundaries for a child who lacks internal boundaries.

There are actually a few times when it's appropriate.

First, it's a great connecting tool when you're not even using the other steps. Especially for children who love touch and contact. I often sweep into a room, scoop a child up into a bear hug, squeeze and cuddle and then move on. The thing about the positioning of the bear hug is that mom is non-threatening-behind, at child's level, and able to speak calmly and quietly into child's ear. The hug provides a sense of security to most children. I actually encourage doing this often so that when it's done as the 5th step the child is comfortable with it and comforted BY it.

Second, it is a great tool for providing external boundaries when a child's internal boundaries have broken down. Because the 4th step is *helping* that is where most interactions should end-parent helps child be successful and not cooperating is NOT an option. But if the child melts down or becomes violent then it's important to keep them, yourself, and others safe and holding them not only does that but, with most children, helps them calm down. Because children push the boundaries when they don't feel safe, providing kind and firm boundaries in a tangible way he's them feel safe and calm down.

If a child is averse to the Bear Hug then I would only use it if the child was truly being violent and needed to be kept safe. In that case I'm not particularly concerned about them not liking it because safety comes first. Otherwise, if they are just *melting down* then I find a safe place for them to have their big feelings and I wait nearby.

During the Bear Hug I speak calmly into the child's ears saying things that let them know I will release them as soon as they have their own self control, that I am bigger than their big feelings, that they are safe and I will keep them safe, that I hear them being very upset-reflecting, validating and affirming them while instructing them in what they need to do (get their self control back).


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinsTwicePlusTwo* 
Personally, I believe there's no such thing as one parenting approach that works with every (or even most) children. I know I've had to adjust my techniques for each child. What Beth responded to didn't work for Cali, what Cali responded to didn't work for her twin, and so on. Time outs worked great for three of my six children. For Jesse and Davin, the separation and withdrawal of affection was traumatizing, and a more AP/GD approach is much better. I trust myself to be able to tell when my child is being hurt by my methods, and to adjust accordingly. I don't think there's anything wrong with what the OP did, since it seemed to have worked well for her child.

Of course, that's just my opinion, which is probably worth what you paid for it.









this is actually _really_ helpful and kind of affirms what i've been thinking myself. i appreciate your saying that different things work with different kids. my hunch is my child (at least at this point in time) needs time-out. i guess this is probably not the place to post such a wild assertion, but there you have it









again, thanks for you kind words.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 







It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.

i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

What she gets is that it's a punishment.

She doesn't get how it's helping her.

-Angela


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
While I'm sensitive to the "love withdrawal" argument, I'm also sensitive to the fact that walking away is probably less damaging to my kids than mom screaming like a maniac, or worse, mom hitting back because that's what my reflexes want to do.

I think this is a really important point, one that is not given enough airtime in most GD circles. GD is only possible if this aspect is dealt with. I see moms, over and over, trying so hard to do it right, and then losing it at the last minute. I have gone through many iterations of struggling with this as a mother. The "just do it" recommendation, as in "just redirect", "just be playful", "just remind yourself it's developmental" really doesn't give parents enough tools, imo.

The tools I would recommend are 1) EFT for the moments when you're backed in a corner and are on the edge of losing it, 2) making a plan ahead of time, which your child knows about, for you both to get a break from the hitting 3) making a plan for repairing breaks in the relationship, which will happen -- both you and your kids will make mistakes, act badly, and lose it sometimes. Meeting those times and coming back to center is a very useful tool to teach and learn. A great book for learning repair of relationship breaks is Parenting from the Inside Out.

I trust that you'll find your way through whether or not time-outs at this age are working for your dd. I do think she's a little young to get the logic you're using, and I wonder if the positive effect will wear off once she gets used to it. But I don't think it's wrong to experiment; I hear that you're at the end of your rope and feeling like this is better than the alternative, and wondering if it might actually be the solution. I suspect it's not the solution, but see that it's clearly important for you at this point to introduce some other options, and I see you exploring that. I say just keep gently exploring, taking into account lots of different sources of info and your daughter's reactions. You'll find a way through. And continue to respect your own needs and limits! That's very sensible, although sometimes not very easy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Instead it was a "you're welcome to join us when you've calmed down". For our ds especially, he needed to be physically separated from us to achieve that. He's easily overstimulated, and being near the 'source' of the problem kept him revved up. Alone, he'd storm for a bit, and then let us comfort him. With us, he'd keep going.

This is true of my son as well, and those are words that we've used. He's like me in this way! I know exactly how it feels, at least my version of it. It's so helpful to have a way out of a situation sometimes, and then revisit it afterwards. I'm still not clear on the best way to do this -- we're still finding our way through. But I do know that it's one of his legitimate needs, to get some space when he's upset. And he can't always do it. It's an interesting issue.

Good luck, mama! Hope you get some interesting food for thought on here.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
The Five Steps are a technique developed by Lisa Kuzara-Seibold, Minister of Early Childhood Education at Word of Grace Church in Mesa, Arizona. I had the amazing opportunity to mentor under her while employed by the Department of Early Childhood Education as a Sunday School Teacher. This example of The Five Steps is an adaptation of what is taught in her training manual.

Step 1: State your request and offer a reason.

Example: "You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up. It is time to leave."

Step 2: Restate your request.

Example: "You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up."

It is helpful to get down on the child's level and touch your child while looking in his eyes to make sure you have his attention.

*Step 3: Offer help.*

Example: "You are having a hard time stopping your play. Can you stop playing and clean up or do you need my help?"

Whether your child requests help or not respect their wishes. Help is not a punishment, it is help.

Step 4: Help.

Example: "You are not stopping your play. Here, let me help you."

Again, help is not a punishment. It is an acknowledgment that your child is unable to stop on their own. This may be due to a lack of maturity, being tired or hungry, or simply not wanting to stop.

Step 5: The Bear Hug.

Stand behind your child and wrap your arms over her shoulders and across her chest. Hold her arms with your hands if you are concerned about her striking out. Squat down to her level and speak gently in her ear that you are helping her stop herself and that you will let her go when she can stop herself. Gentle pressure on her shoulders can keep her from kicking or attempting to run from you. *This is not a punishment.* It is providing outside boundaries for a child who lacks internal boundaries.

There are actually a few times when it's appropriate.

First, it's a great connecting tool when you're not even using the other steps. Especially for children who love touch and contact. I often sweep into a room, scoop a child up into a bear hug, squeeze and cuddle and then move on. The thing about the positioning of the bear hug is that mom is non-threatening-behind, at child's level, and able to speak calmly and quietly into child's ear. The hug provides a sense of security to most children. I actually encourage doing this often so that when it's done as the 5th step the child is comfortable with it and comforted BY it.

Second, it is a great tool for providing external boundaries when a child's internal boundaries have broken down. Because the 4th step is *helping* that is where most interactions should end-parent helps child be successful and not cooperating is NOT an option. But if the child melts down or becomes violent then it's important to keep them, yourself, and others safe and holding them not only does that but, with most children, helps them calm down. Because children push the boundaries when they don't feel safe, providing kind and firm boundaries in a tangible way he's them feel safe and calm down.

If a child is averse to the Bear Hug then I would only use it if the child was truly being violent and needed to be kept safe. In that case I'm not particularly concerned about them not liking it because safety comes first. Otherwise, *if they are just *melting down* then I find a safe place for them to have their big feelings and I wait nearby.*

*During the Bear Hug I speak calmly into the child's ears saying things that let them know I will release them as soon as they have their own self control, that I am bigger than their big feelings, that they are safe and I will keep them safe, that I hear them being very upset-reflecting, validating and affirming them while instructing them in what they need to do (get their self control back*).

My bold.

I have to say I have a real problem with this. First of all, the OP is talking about a ONE YEAR OLD. Second...Why is help offered as 'step three'? Why not offer to help the first time? ESPECIALLY with a really young kiddo. Doing things 'side by side' is the best way for them to be independent later anyways. And the 'bear hug' idea is physical restraint, no matter how cuddly you make it out to be. It's worded very similarly to 'holding therapy', and it seems out of place entirely for use with an average child with normal levels of aggressive outbursts (not that it works for severely disturbed children either, but it is uses). How is an adult using their body to physically restrain a child any LESS a show of arbitrary dominance and power than an adult hitting/spanking a child?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

I can uniformly assert this because I did graduate work in early childhood education and understand cognitive and emotional and moral development.

Your daughter does not make those connections. If she does, it's in a Pavlovian "crime and punishment" kind of way. "If I do this, mama makes something unpleasant happen to me." Which is fine I guess, if that's the kind of relationship you want to have. I personally don't see that fitting into an attachment parenting paradigm at all. Throw in the timed aspect (as I said before, your daughter can't tell time and has no concept of a minute. For all she knows, you're going to keep parking her back on that futon until the end of time) and the withdrawal of affection (blank face, turning the back on her, no speaking), and it seems even more inappropriate.

It's a punishment whether she understands it or not. She did something you didn't like, so you're doing something she won't like--something which goes against the very nature of a toddler--to "teach her a lesson". You're not walking away, you're forcing her to sit. You're not showing her anything, you're forcing her to sit. You're not channeling her energy into something acceptable, you're forcing her to sit. That's what makes it punitive and not discipline.

You seem pretty convinced that this is the way to go, and that it "works". You've only responded positively to people who have given you permission to do this to your daughter. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, since in your OP you seemed to want to opinions on how GD it is. My opinion is that it's not gentle, it's not discipline, and it doesn't promote attachment.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
this is actually _really_ helpful and kind of affirms what i've been thinking myself. i appreciate your saying that different things work with different kids. my hunch is my child (at least at this point in time) needs time-out. i guess this is probably not the place to post such a wild assertion, but there you have it









again, thanks for you kind words.

Well that is definitely the crux of any parenting conversation, isn't it? LOL That different thing work for different kids









Here's my suggestion, FWIW, feel free to offer change









I hear you that the hitting and the aggression are feeling intense. That she's hitting the cat AND the people she loves tells me that yes, she needs a boundary. And, you know her best, so if you believe she's asking for a boundary then by all means show her there is a boundary! I am of the camp that arbitrary time outs aren't always the most beneficial and should, ideally, be avoided if possible. In our house we do more of a cooling off where child can go do whatever to calm down. BUT, it IS a natural consequence for people/animals to not want to be with you when you hurt them. So, while I might adjust the method to work better for me, if my 1yo is hurting others it would be important for me to help the 1yo understand...when you hurt people they want to go away.

Have you tried the library for books you can read together? I can't think of any offhand. Maybe you could even do a photo book yourself that 'tells the story' of hitting = hurting etc.

Also, is there a way to have a little more super-active playtime with her 3-4 times a day? Like run around the house and tickle, wrestle, etc. as a positive outlet for this physical energy? Pillow fight, jump on the couch/beds, bang pots and pans etc? This could be in 15 minute spurts throughout the day, but I'd bet it makes a difference? If you already do this, do it more...LOL

I'll try and brainstorm some more, good luck mama!!









ETA: What about getting a soft bat and letting her hit the couch? Then if she hits someone you can swoop in and say Ohhhhh REMEMBER??? You can hit the couch with THIS (big dramatic silly flair while handing her the bat) but you can NOT hit Mama/Daddy/Kitty

Also, please know that if you need to walk away because you are at the end of your rope emotionally or patience wise, or whatever, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Make sure your bb is in a safe place and walk away, cool off, whatever you need to do to regroup and go back to tackling this. You can do it! This too shall pass!


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 







It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way..


I agree. I would also suggest the book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey? She has many concrete GD type suggestions for different ages - but the biggest things I took away from the book were more to do with ME and dealing with my emotions before addressing situations as well as being assertive rather than passive or aggressive (in other relationships - not just with the kids.)

We offer positive choices as much as possible (Would you like to take your shoes off or would you like to get down from the bed? in the situation the OP mentioned) and remind them that hitting is not an option. I have also said at times when I feel like I need a minute "I love you and I need to go calm down for a minute before we talk about this." And if one of the kids is out of control tantruming/hitting/etc. I ask whether they would like to sit with me and calm down or calm down by themselves...because really - we all have times where we want to be consoled when we are upset and times when we want a few minutes alone.

With a 20 mth old it needs to be even more basic, but again, I would definitely recommend that book!


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

What a 20 mth old takes away from this is "If I don't do what she wants - the person I love is going to leave me." Is that really what you want to instill in your child? I know that sounds a bit extreme - but really, you are teaching her to rely completely on external motivation to do what you want rather than teaching her other ways of behaving appropriately.

The ideal would be to teach her APPROPRIATE ways of expressing herself (gentle touches, etc) rather than just punishing the negative behaviour.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

One last thing.









The other thing that bothers me about it as that you're setting her up for failure. You're putting her on futon and turning your back. Of course she's going to get down. That's what toddlers do, they climb up and down stuff.

I would just really urge you to put yourself in her shoes. She's so little. She has this whole world in front of her, and all these limits she doesn't quite understand. Of course she's testing to see where they are! So when she hits, help her to be gentle. You don't need to tack a punishment on at the end to drive home the point. Keep the limits consistant and realistic, and she'll learn where they are. This is said with love by a mama who has gone through this 4 times now, each time with very different children, one of whom is your daughter's age and nursing right now because he pitched a fit at the "we don't throw kashi bars" limit.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

My two year old hits occasionally. We will go a week at a time with no hitting and then she has a day where she just seems to be in the mood to hit. I don't allow it. I don't like the idea of being punitive. I do a version of time out. If she hits once I remind her not to hit and that if she hits again, she will have to go play in her room until she can stop hitting. The warning is usually enough but if it isn't, I tell her to go to her room and if she refuses, I pick her up and take her there. I allow her to play with her toys, look at books or scream in anger if she wants, and I let her come out when she is ready, I do shut her door if she is screaming, but she knows how to open the door when she wants to come out. If she comes out and is still screaming (not crying, I would comfort her then, just screaming in anger) then I remind her that she is free to scream all she wants in her room, but the rest of the house belongs to everyone and nobody else wants to hear screaming. She usually plays in there, often happily, for two to five minutes and then comes out ready to play and be friendly. If I try to pull her close and encourage hugs and kisses instead of hitting, then there is an escalation in the aggression. She is a child that has always needed her space. She seems to need the time to herself and I am trying to teach her to recognize that and act on it. If there are real tears and sadness, I comfort her and at those times, that seems to work, too. I also trying to figure out what her triggers are and avoid them when possible.
I think that every child is different, though. What works for mine might be a disaster with another child. I do worry that this will stop working for us and I don't know what we will do then. Right now she never tries to follow me out of her room when I put her in there, if that changes, I'm not sure how I will handle it.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

That is similar to what we do, only when I put my kids in what some would call "time out" I tell them "you are having a hard time stopping hitting. this is a safe place for you to calm down. when you are ready, we can all play nicely again" I dont really out a time limit on it. sometimes my son just stays and plays in his room for a little bt before coming back out. sometimes he comes out a minute later. sometimes he needs to be redirected back to his room because he is still being angry/destructive/etc.

I would also try the ask nicely, let them know what you need, then enforce consequences.

Please do not hit me. It hurts mommy.
I need you to stop hitting. If you cannot stop yourself from hitting mommy will help you find a safe place for you to calm down.
if she hits again bring her to the safe place.

I guess this is kind of similar to what mistymama was saying...

I think its about the approach though. time out is a more of "im doing this to you because you did this to me" where as giving them a quiet safe place to calm down is more of "im helping you do the right thing"

to some its just semantics.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 

I hear you that the hitting and the aggression are feeling intense. That she's hitting the cat AND the people she loves tells me that yes, she needs a boundary. And, you know her best, so if you believe she's asking for a boundary then by all means show her there is a boundary! I am of the camp that arbitrary time outs aren't always the most beneficial and should, ideally, be avoided if possible. In our house we do more of a cooling off where child can go do whatever to calm down. BUT, it IS a natural consequence for people/animals to not want to be with you when you hurt them. So, while I might adjust the method to work better for me, if my 1yo is hurting others it would be important for me to help the 1yo understand...when you hurt people they want to go away.

*thank you, yes, this is what i am feeling. it feels very intense to me.*

Have you tried the library for books you can read together? I can't think of any offhand. Maybe you could even do a photo book yourself that 'tells the story' of hitting = hurting etc.

Also, is there a way to have a little more super-active playtime with her 3-4 times a day? Like run around the house and tickle, wrestle, etc. as a positive outlet for this physical energy? Pillow fight, jump on the couch/beds, bang pots and pans etc? This could be in 15 minute spurts throughout the day, but I'd bet it makes a difference? If you already do this, do it more...LOL

*i'm definitely going to give this a try; great suggestion!*

I'll try and brainstorm some more, good luck mama!!









ETA: What about getting a soft bat and letting her hit the couch? Then if she hits someone you can swoop in and say Ohhhhh REMEMBER??? You can hit the couch with THIS (big dramatic silly flair while handing her the bat) but you can NOT hit Mama/Daddy/Kitty

*another good idea--we already tell her she can hit the couch if she wants to hit something. sometimes when she's mad and hitting an object (like a pillow), i encourage her to hit that and tell her "that is a good thing to hit when you're mad and need to hit." but i like the idea of a soft bat. do you happen to know who sells soft bats?







*

Also, please know that if you need to walk away because you are at the end of your rope emotionally or patience wise, or whatever, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Make sure your bb is in a safe place and walk away, cool off, whatever you need to do to regroup and go back to tackling this. You can do it! This too shall pass!

thanks, this was extremely helpful.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Daphne I also agree with you on the screaming issue - we use th same phrase (the house belongs to everyone, if you want to scream you can scream in your room.) I think the approach teaches children to give themselves a "time out" BEFORE they get to that point. I somtimes suggest it to my kids when I see it escalating but before it gets ot that point. I suggest some play time alone in their room and let them know sometimes you just need time to yourself. I dont enforce it in any way at that time, it's just a suggestion. If they are out of control though, then I will tell them they need to go to their room until they calm down, and take them if they dont go on their own.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my daughter learned to hit when she was angry from my friends mom. when my daughter hit her head on the table, my friends mom would go "pow pow!" and hit the table. my daughter then started hitting everyone she got mad at, and I know she learned from the table thing, because her hitting was accompanied with "pow pow". for her, it was important that I tell her it nots okay to hit - not even the table. I have ot let my friends mom know not to do this with her anymore either. I know it works for some people, but we do not allow any form of hitting as an expression for anger. We may take time to cool down alone, or we may color a picture and pres hard with our crayons, etc.

I do also agree with teaching the ways a child CAN touch others (gently)


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

What really helped me with that kind of testing was this:
1. give information (yes, even if you think they already KNOW why not to do it- they probably don't really. lol)
2. honor the impulse- there is a legitimate reason that a young kid does what he/she does. It's all about learning- cause and effect, how they affect the world, testing limits, science, everything. It's just that sometimes the way they are trying to express that is not ok. So find a way for them to express themselves/learn what they are trying to learn.
3. redirect in a way that honors the impulse/find an agreeable solution- Ime, you have to be VERY specific. Tell them what they CAN do that is related to what they were doing.
For example, when my ds was under 2, we had an issue with him hitting me with books. He wanted me to read them (that was his legitimate reason). I wanted him to know that he CAN'T hit me.
I tried lots of things- walking away from him (which left him upset, but didn't teach anything), yelling (not a purposely chosen thing, mind you), explaining that hitting hurt, blah blah blah. I even tried redirecting- "Just hand me the book, don't hit me with it." (I discovered that wasn't specific enough)
You know what worked? ONE TIME I told him "If you want me to read a book to you, put the book in my hand." And he has never hit me with a book since.

So just because redirecting isn't fixing it, it might be that you aren't being specific enough, or that the way you are redirecting isn't really helping your dd express/learn what she was trying to do in the first place (ie, distracting her to something unrelated- I personally don't think this is helpful at all, except in very few situations).

And I know it's frustrating when kids do that- (do something *similar* to what you told them not to do). But it's kinda a neat learning process. It shows that they did listen to you when you said "Don't do x." They're just checking to see if that applies to 1 marker instead of the whole box.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
Daphne I also agree with you on the screaming issue - we use th same phrase (the house belongs to everyone, if you want to scream you can scream in your room.) *I think the approach teaches children to give themselves a "time out" BEFORE they get to that point.*

Bold is mine, but this is what I am hoping to accomplish. I was almost 30 before I learned to walk away from a negative interaction and not contribute to the escalation of it. I am hoping that my dd will learn to control that at a younger age.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
i'm interested in this idea that they don't get it. how can someone just uniformly assert that a 20 month old doesn't understand time-out and thus it's a punishment? from what went on last night, it seemed she perfectly understood it. i really don't think she felt abandoned; i think she felt "hey! i'm not getting to come over and hit you anymore. my action has an actual consequence. this is new and strange."

Basically humans are born with 25% of the brains developed, the other 75% develops over the next 7 years. People under 3 years old have very little higher level reasoning abilities because of their neurological development ......... at 20 months old probably none. So no empathy, no ability to plan (so can't manipulate), only beginnings of physical cause and effect, no impulse control.

When my dd (3 right now) was about that age, we were telling her to be gentle and modeling gentle behavior. If that wasn't working, I'd ask her what she was doing and suggest something more fun. Sometimes walking outside can distract when nothing else does. You don't let them bite, hit or kick by gently blocking or moving out of the way. I would tell my dd that 'I don't let people hurt me' and sometimes 'here kick the pillow not mommy'. You can also say teeth are eating, feet are for jumping. Also biting can suddenly get really bad if molars are about to come in. I'd give my dd shaved ice that I'd made in the blender (about the consistancy of snow). Teething pain can cause biting and unpleasant behavior.

We don't use times outs, except for me ......... I've handed dd to my husband and taken a break. I've used time-ins, which is picking the child up or sitting the child in your lap when they aren't behaving safely.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

the brain is 80% developed by age 2 and 90% by age 5. Even my developmentally delayed son showed empathy by time he could crawl, before he could walk (between 7 and 13 months) billions of synapses make connections in the brain every second for a baby.

that being said, I agree time ins, redirection, and modeling appropriate behavior is best at all times, but really all I personally would use during the first 2 years. at that point is when we teach them the importance of walking away and finding a safe place to vent off anger without hurting anyone else. (I wouldnt say the day they turn 2 or anything, just sometime after the 2nd year, when I feel like they are ready for that)


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 

Your daughter does not make those connections. If she does, it's in a Pavlovian "crime and punishment" kind of way. "If I do this, mama makes something unpleasant happen to me." Which is fine I guess, if that's the kind of relationship you want to have. I personally don't see that fitting into an attachment parenting paradigm at all.

*i see what you're saying. i just think kids have to learn that their behavior will have consequences--if you hit people, they aren't going to play with you. they're going to be mad at you. if i let things go on being fine and pleasant when she is repeatedly hurting us, then how am i giving a consequence? our job is to teach them about the results of their actions, but make the consequences humane and reasonable. or at least IMO.*

Throw in the timed aspect (as I said before, your daughter can't tell time and has no concept of a minute. For all she knows, you're going to keep parking her back on that futon until the end of time) and the withdrawal of affection (blank face, turning the back on her, no speaking), and it seems even more inappropriate.

*i wasn't like using an egg timer. the idea was just to get her to sit for a reasonable length of time, to realize the whole thing wasn't a game and give her enough time to break the cycle of hitting. she was playing with a pillow. she could see me. she wasn't begging for interaction while i ignored her screams. she wasn't in solitary confinement.
*

It's a punishment whether she understands it or not. She did something you didn't like, so you're doing something she won't like--something which goes against the very nature of a toddler--to "teach her a lesson". You're not walking away, you're forcing her to sit. You're not showing her anything, you're forcing her to sit. You're not channeling her energy into something acceptable, you're forcing her to sit. That's what makes it punitive and not discipline.

*if i walk away, she comes after me and hits me. or she goes and hits DH. she starts throwing her trains. or slapping the cat. the point of "forcing her to sit" is that it breaks the pattern. it interrupts the impulse to destroy stuff. it is not just to teach her a lesson but to truly redirect her from hitting, as well as to show that if she hits, i won't keep playing with her.*

You seem pretty convinced that this is the way to go, and that it "works". You've only responded positively to people who have given you permission to do this to your daughter. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, since in your OP you seemed to want to opinions on how GD it is. My opinion is that it's not gentle, it's not discipline, and it doesn't promote attachment.

i guess i mostly wanted reassurance that this isn't horrible. apparently some people think it is. others don't. so that's honest.

i dunno, the GD thing makes sense to me, but at some point i think they have to learn that you are completely serious about something, that it's a real limit in the world, no messing around. i don't have another way to show that to her, at least not at this point. nothing i say or have done makes any difference.

i'm going to try redirecting more specifically like the PP recommended, and maybe a pillow to punch and more physical play. i'm not just planning to use time-outs all the time; just still surprised that it "worked" much better than i had thought it would and with minimal trauma or hurt feelings. it was interesting in that respect.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i do agree with the "if you arent nice people wont want to play with you" concept. I just want to TEACH my children what to do with their feelings. Good ways to express them, sfe places to go or good ways to walk away when they are boiling with anger, etc.

I used to be more okay with time outs then I am now. I have learned from other gentle mamas though that there are other approaches to this (i used to always do the time out for hitting/throwing things/etc - now I work more on using these times to teach)

I'm sure some people still think the way I do things is still a time out. maybe ill agree wit those people one day. for now though, its not really a time out, thats not the attitude we have about it. its a tool I am teaching my children. to go find a place to unwind instead of hurting others or being destructive towards their envirnment.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

btw - I definitely don't think what you are doing is horrible. I do think with time and experience you may find a better approach, but even if not, its not horrible like spanking or yelling.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LynnS6
Instead it was a "you're welcome to join us when you've calmed down". For our ds especially, he needed to be physically separated from us to achieve that. He's easily overstimulated, and being near the 'source' of the problem kept him revved up. Alone, he'd storm for a bit, and then let us comfort him. With us, he'd keep going.
Add my DD to this list, We actually include a simple old fashion timer with out "timeouts" not because we tell her sit here for 6 mintues and think about what you did wrong but because she tends to hyper focus on the issue no matter how "petty" it may be. She finds a LOT of comfort in that silly timer its like it gives her permission to have some big feelings but also permission to let it go, she'll actually tell us its almost time mommy 10 9 8 I can almost feel great again!














.

Deanna


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

First, there's a children's book called "hands are not for hitting", also one called "teeth are not for biting", which may or may not be helpful. My DD went through a biting phase (biting her brother) and those books helped a bit... we'd read them after something happened (and regularly anyway), and she seemed to associate the concept after a while. It also gave me rhymes to use to talk to her when she was looking like she might bite.

Did we do time outs? Not as such, but what I *DID* do is change the venue... I'd put her in her high chair and give her something to eat or paint or ... something to do. Usually it was enough to change the behavior without too much ado. Which, actually, reminds me that I should do that more with DS, since he is in a "get in my sister's hair as much as possible" phase and I've been yelling more than I should.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Ready to Be Done, I think your approach makes a fair amount of sense, and I can see you're basing it on what you observe about your individual child.







I'd be wary of making time-outs too abstract or hostile. Keep the focus on your pain and your desire to get away from someone who's hurting you. If she follows you, keep pulling away and avoiding her. Close a door between you if possible (look out for her fingers!). Keep time-outs very short, just long enough that you hear or see a change in her or YOU feel you've gotten your breath and are ready to cope again.

Consider correcting her behavior sooner (before you are fed up) and then giving a second chance.

But also, remember that she's really only very small, and do your best to be patient and cope with that "hit her back" feeling.









ssh wrote:

Quote:

Basically humans are born with 25% of the brains developed, the other 75% develops over the next 7 years. People under 3 years old have very little higher level reasoning abilities because of their neurological development ......... at 20 months old probably none. So no empathy, no ability to plan (so can't manipulate), only beginnings of physical cause and effect, no impulse control.
Oh boy. First of all, our brains are NEVER 100% developed; only a minority of our brain tissue ever gets used. Even the parts we do use are not 100% "developed" at age 7! We keep forming new connections all our lives (unless living in a very deprived environment), and there's also a major leap in cognitive function around 11 years old.

The rest of what you said depends on your exact definitions of the terms, but in observing my own child and working in developmental psych research, I've learned that these skills do begin to develop at an early age. I have watched baby after baby, 5 to 9 months old, learn in just a few minutes that when blue triangles appear on the center screen, the next picture is going to pop up on the left, but when it's red circles in the center, the next picture will be on the right, and turn their heads accordingly; that's planning. I've watched them learn that if they press a button, a shelf 6 feet away will tilt and make the toy on it roll down a ramp to them; that's physical cause and effect. Here are my thoughts on impulse control and understanding consequences.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

envirobecca--you are awesome!









those blog posts were so incredibly helpful. i really like the second chance thing, and i actually do that a lot (briefly take a toy away, then if she cries tell her she can "try again" with it. it does work well, lots of times!).

i definitely don't think time-outs should be hostile at all. in fact the point is for us BOTH to stop being hostile









DH is picking her up from daycare right now, and when i see her, i'm totally going to think about how she's very small. what a sweet sentiment.

suddenly i have a major parenting advice crush on you







:


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## Grace24 (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 







It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it.

When I read the OP's original statement and description of the scene, it seemed like her child did get it. She says she calmed down and seemed to change her behavior.

To the OP: you know your child best, and you seemed to react to your child the way you thought you needed to, having tried other things in the past that didn't seem to work. If you sense she needs limits, trust that. I really don't think what you did was so harsh, but then again I don't visit the GD forum very often. My little guy is only 14 months old so I guess I haven't needed to. But he is a hitter and a biter and although I redirect and distract, I can see a day coming where I might have to try something else. I hope I'm wrong. But anyhow I just wanted to speak up and say maybe you should just trust yourself a little more to read your daughter and what she needs. You know her best.

I know I'll probably get flamed for this but I had to speak out in the OP's defense. Seems like she kinda got jumped all over for "punishing a baby" when what I saw in the situation was a toddler who was purposely testing limits. Believe me I know when my little guy is trying to see what he can get away with, even as young as he is.


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## Grace24 (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
What she gets is that it's a punishment.

She doesn't get how it's helping her.

-Angela

I didn't understand a lot of the limits my parents set until last year.







But I sure am glad they set them.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Wow, there have been a lot of posts with great information so I won't add much.

The OP said that her child is 20 months yet a lot of PP are refering to a 1 yr. To me a child who is 12 months is a lot different than at 20 months. IMO at 12 months the child is still a baby but at 20, the child is in toddler hood and can express and understand a lot more.

I do time outs with my son and started when he was about 18 months (he is now 3). At that time I would let him know that what he did was wrong and then place him in a quiet spot so he could calm down and he could come out whenever he was ready to play nicely. When he was ready we would have a quick discussion (it hurt mommy when you hit her) and then off to play. I don't do it for everything, only for the "deal breakers" like hitting or biting.

I think its really important to instill the concept that there are consequences for your actions. It doesn't have to be in a cruel way (ie spanking, isolation etc) but the idea needs to come across. Life has consequences and I want my son to grow up knowing that what he does effects others and himself.

I also want to add that I don't think there is ""One Way" for every child. OP, you know your child and whats best for your family.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grace24* 
I didn't understand a lot of the limits my parents set until last year.







But I sure am glad they set them.

I would rather that my children always understand my reasons. My parents never set a rule within my memory that I didn't understand the reason behind. We had very few rules. Worked for us.

-Angela


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I think (I only read the OP and none of the replies) that children crave limits. I know I did as a kid. I know my ds definitely does. He NEEDS to know what's OK and what's not. Otherwise, he will test and test and test. Once i say, "ok, enough. stop now." and follow through, he moves on to actually enjoying our playtime together. i don't put him in timeout, but I put him down and walk away if he hits or bites. after a moment I will come back to him and hug him and remind him that xyz is not safe or gentle or polite (the only three rules I really have) and we move on. but if I just keep saying stop, he laughs and continues, and no amount of distraction or redirection stop the behavior.

So I don't think that's cruel.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

I've only read Page 1, and this isn't an issue I feel deeply about either way, but I'll share with OP what we've experience:

My DD is 22 mos. She is doing exactly the sort of thing your describe.
She usually gets one warning-- "C, Mommy told you not to play in the dog's food, if you do it again," etc. I am always very calm, "Okay, now you're going to time out." I really do think she gets it. She will sometimes be playing in the dog's food, look up to find me staring at her, and say, "Oooh... Time out!" She is at the point now where I can say, "Go sit in time out," and she goes by herself. As soon as I come into the room to get her (or come over if I have stayed in the room-- I don't leave unless I need to be elsewhere, and I try to maintain voice contact at least), she brightens and says, "Sorry, Mommy." We talk about what she should have done, we hug, return to playing.

She doesn't _like_ it, but she almost never even cries about it. I feel very confident that it is not traumatizing to her, and really... _I_ need it. I need to feel like I'm doing something concrete about repeated undesireable behaviors, and I need a minute, sometimes.

I agree with the PP who said that different approaches work for different children. You know your child best; right now, it's really the only think that I can think of that seems to work with her. Also, almost all of her infractions are the sort that separation is the only natural consequence. I'm not sure how to effect that sort of consequence if _not_ through time-out.









ETA-- I just started reading _The No-Cry Discipline Solution_. I have found it really, really helpful so far. In fact, there are points where I was almost in tears because it was very much affirming the idea that, "You love your child. You are reading this book because you want to be a good parent. If you are succeeding even 70% of the time, you are doing a good job and have a lot to be proud of." So far, I recommend it.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I would rather that my children always understand my reasons. My parents never set a rule within my memory that I didn't understand the reason behind. We had very few rules. Worked for us.

-Angela

But that wouldn't work for everyone. I know with my daughter, she needs structure. If there is none she's a basket case. I'm not saying I schedule her, or have a million rules, or have an unbaby proofed house. But I do have to have some rules, an organized day and house and we have to follow a routine. We tried the other way and it was a disaster.

All kids and families are different. Perhaps my next child will feel abandoned if I try to discipline the same way I discipline dd, then I'll have to do something that works for them. yk?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 
But that wouldn't work for everyone. I know with my daughter, she needs structure. If there is none she's a basket case. I'm not saying I schedule her, or have a million rules, or have an unbaby proofed house. But I do have to have some rules, an organized day and house and we have to follow a routine. We tried the other way and it was a disaster.

All kids and families are different. Perhaps my next child will feel abandoned if I try to discipline the same way I discipline dd, then I'll have to do something that works for them. yk?

I absolutely agree that kids need structure and many need a reliable routine. However I see no reason that there need to be rules that seem arbitrary to a child. Even a very young toddler can understand on a basic level the reasons behind things- we don't bite because it hurts mama.

-Angela


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

What about framing this a completely different way? To focus on PREVENTION rather than the post hoc boundary?

Why? Once a toddler STARTS an action, it's almost impossible for them to stop it. They can inhibit an action, but they have to inhibit it before the action is underway. (Even for adults this is hard. Try punching a pillow and stopping half way!)

So, if you get them before they connect, you interrupt the cycle and show them that hitting is not tolerated. You can also model gentle with their hands. For kids who are chronic hitters, what often works best is to 'shadow' them for a week or more. Your job is to intercept the hit before it starts. If you can intercept gently or move away before the hit, then you also remove 'satisfaction' of making contact and the ensuing reaction.

If she makes contact (and she will), what I'd rather see someone do with a 20 month old (who is still as "one year old" because they haven't turned 2) is that you sit her on the couch when she hits and say "that hurt. Be gentle. You can get up when you're ready to be gentle." Then, stay nearby. If she gets up and follows you/dh/the cats and hits, the park her back on the couch. Calmly, with the same boring directions.

Enforcing a time limit is arbitrary and difficult for a 20 month old to understand. Linking a desired behavior isn't so arbitrary.

Honestly, I'd also be leery of teaching her to hit something else when she's mad -that doesn't actually teach her not to hit.

What about teaching her to stomp? And then do some deep breathing.

I'm not completely against time outs. But I think their effectiveness is pretty limited, and you'll never convince me that a 20 month old really understands WHY they're in time out. If it serves to distract and redirect them, fine. But once you start enforcing time limits, you've lost me.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I absolutely agree that kids need structure and many need a reliable routine. However I see no reason that there need to be rules that seem arbitrary to a child. Even a very young toddler can understand on a basic level the reasons behind things- we don't bite because it hurts mama.

-Angela

not my daughter









ok well, yes she understands it hurts and does it anyways.









I'd love advice from anyone on how to help that situation.


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## jadielynn (Mar 6, 2008)

I am dealing with a almost 2.5 year old. Getting him to understand that him and I are on the same team, and that rules are there to help us all be safe and feel loved. It is very hard to not punish him for not obeying rules. One thing that I have implemented lately that is helping is acting, doing what I think is necessary at the time of conflict, but not over doing it with communication. It doesn't work for everyone, but it may help. Act with what is reasonable to you.
Ex; like if my son has an object he is hitting things or people with, and He throws a tantrum when I have to remove the object from him, it turns into a power struggle, or a conflict.
I may do a number of things that were suggested before, like distract him by being really goofy, or change the environment, finding acceptable alternatives i.e.: redirect his behavior like let him scribble on paper, or throw pillows, but at this point it may be to late for this.
I may remove Him from the environment and we may use the time for cuddling, and sharing feelings after he is calmed down.
I have found that it is sometimes useless and aggravating to us both for me to explain and lecture during the time of conflict unless we are both in the frame of mind for it. If I am not calm then it won't work. And if he is screaming and carrying on he is not going to listen. I am not saying not to communicate, just not lecture about the behavior until she can accept what you are saying. With a behavior that is really infuriating and pushing you to your limits like this, it is probably time for you to sit down and make some I statements. Write it down, and when it is the best time of day for her (like after a nap and a snack and while you are playing&#8230 talk to her about how you feel.
Ex; I feel sad when you hit me and the Cat and Daddy. I want to be
treated softly. Tell her what is acceptable. Don't focus so much on what you don't want her to do as what you do want her to do. I would really like to trust you to be gentle and soft to mommy daddy and the cat. We really love you but hitting hurts. &#8230;.
This may seem to go far over her head. She will probably get most of it, and the intention of it. But it is mostly to train you. And you can also feel better that you have expressed yourself to her.
Sometimes children are trying to find out where they fit into the family, and of course they do this by testing out the boundaries. And sometimes when I give into my son by reacting too much to his ploy for attention it blows up at me. It is that theory that Dreikurs gives in his book Children the Challenge. An old book, but most of these books about parenting are based on his theories. Others just give practical application.
Your daughter may be getting a reaction out of you when a power struggle occurs that might make her feel like she has a place in the family, whether it is good or bad reaction.
*I am sure that you are trying as hard as you can it sounds like it, and I may be writing this mostly for my own benefit so I can refocus on what I am trying to do. I hope this helps. And I have been opened up to a lot of new thoughts by all you wonderful mothers on this thread. Keep up on your Awesome intentions!*


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

well, i'm the OP and wanted to post an update. maybe it's DH who needs time-out









last night she was throwing books at him, and i was following the advice of a PP and directing her to place it in his hand if she wants him to read to her. he has just taken up knitting (strangely enough for a guy, but whatever) and was knitting and not stopping to read to her. so she was getting frustrated. and she was not accepting my offer to read to her instead--she wanted daddy. finally she was sitting in his lap looking at books (and he was sort of half-reading to her while he knitted) and hit him with one (goodnight moon board book), and he threw the book across the room yelling NO, STOP THROWING BOOKS AT ME! which scared her.

it pi$$ed me off because he didn't even acknowledge that he had also thrown a book or stop to apologize or explain that was a mistake, we shouldn't throw books, etc. for the rest of the night she kept looking over to where he had thrown the book and then would throw one.










i still don't think he gets the issue here, or maybe he's just embarrassed he snapped because he won't apologize or talk about it. i had to tell her daddy was sorry, it was a mistake, etc.

so maybe DH needs a time-out! maybe we both do!!!! it seems like he's on the brink of losing it with her


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## Grace24 (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Honestly, I'd also be leery of teaching her to hit something else when she's mad -that doesn't actually teach her not to hit.

To be honest, this is the issue with redirection for my son. He thinks it's fun to bat at something else, and when he turns my attention back to me, continues to bat at me. I know he thinks he's playing, but really the best thing for him, IMHO, is not redirection, it's holding his arm down. He fusses at me, and I don't hold it hard, but like this PP was saying, it's easier to prevent him from doing it for a moment, then put him down, than to allow him to continue the behavior but at an object instead. How does he know the difference? Thanks, Lynn, for posting this. I really do want to solve the hitting thing.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 
not my daughter









ok well, yes she understands it hurts and does it anyways.









I'd love advice from anyone on how to help that situation.









And that's what makes a toddler







She understands it hurts, but can't stop herself- either because it's a fun sensation, or there's a fun reaction, or whatever.

That is when you *help* them stop. As mentioned earlier, what worked for me in those situations was to dedicate a day or so to STOP the behavior before it happened.

-Angela


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## Grace24 (Mar 9, 2007)

Angela, I'm sorry your DH is so testy with her. Do you think that's because he's frustrated with her behavior, or is she learning her behavior from his temper? I only ask because it is an issue in our house, a little... in the sense that DH and I both grew up around angry fathers and work REALLY HARD not to be throwers. So far we're doing really well but we're not perfect. O throws stuff a lot, I think it's just because he's "that age" but I hate to think he learned it from me.

Sorry you're dealing with this, it's so hard. Have you talked to him about it?


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

haven't read the whole thread. I DO do time outs, but I not that young. At that age I think testing is frustrating, but I don't really even consider it acting out the way I would with an older child. I mean there is so little self-control, kwim?


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

when i see her, i'm totally going to think about how she's very small. what a sweet sentiment.

suddenly i have a major parenting advice crush on you
Gosh!







I'm glad my articles were helpful, but I have to clarify that I can't take credit for the basic idea of the "very small" post--it's something that I saw several times from various people on these boards, and then I began to find it helpful myself, starting when my son was right around the age your daughter is now and was talking in phrases and seeming more like a kid than a baby, so that I tended to expect a bit too much from him at times.

About your husband freaking out: Both my partner and I have done things like that at times. If the other parent is present and can make him/herself available, I think the best response is to step in and say, "Daddy's had enough! He needs to be alone for a while." and take the child away. You want to discuss that in advance, though, to avoid intervening at times when he would feel offended (like you're saying he's an incompetent parent), and to agree on some ways to communicate, "I don't want to be the POD now," without freaking out.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Grace24* 
Do you think that's because he's frustrated with her behavior, or is she learning her behavior from his temper?
<snip>

Sorry you're dealing with this, it's so hard. Have you talked to him about it?

i think he's frustrated with her behavior. true, back in our childless days, we used to get into some real knock-down drag-outs complete with throwing stuff. so i know we BOTH have a temper. but he doesn't do that anymore, i mean almost never, so i don't think she's learning it from him...we definitely don't hit each other









i do need to talk to him about it. i didn't press him on it last night. but we do need to discuss it. i think as she's getting older, we're both finding it harder to accept her difficult behavior. it's like we think she should understand things that she still _doesn't_ or _can't_ really totally understand--like "it's bedtime. let's lie down and go to sleep." he is getting frustrated with her around that, too.

i did try to remove her from his presence after he threw the book, but that made her REALLY upset; i think she felt like she was in trouble, so i had to explain it wasn't her fault and so forth. she wanted to sit with him still.

i still think he should've taken more responsibility for his actions there, and the fallout from it with her, but oh well.


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## sewcool (Jan 25, 2009)

first let me just say before you reply to anyone's post read it clearly Ive seen many people assuming or just not understand what someone has said many times I'm seeing someone say they don't put a baby in time out and others say why would you put a baby in time out READ before posting.

Also I do use time out with my 4 and 3 year old when needed. We do not tolerate hitting of any kind in our home and when they do they get an instant time out no warning. They know they are not supposed to hit we have had many talks and "lessons" on other ways of dealing with issues and they are fully aware that its not OK.

We also us time out when they are just out of control we call it the "simmer down spot" a place to take a break and regroup. They sit on a cute little stool in the kitchen (not facing the wall) and they are able to calm down and talk about what happened and what could have been done instead.

We do not use time out for small things but for repeated ignorance of the rule or hitting/hurting. and i don't see any problem with it.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewcool* 
first let me just say before you reply to anyone's post read it clearly Ive seen many people assuming or just not understand what someone has said many times I'm seeing someone say they don't put a baby in time out and others say why would you put a baby in time out READ before posting.

I have a 21 month old. I have had 3 other 21 month olds. I have cared for other 21 month olds. I have studied 21 month olds. They are still very much babies, just beginning to be toddlers. Why would you assume we didn't read?


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## sewcool (Jan 25, 2009)

i was talking about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amylcd
I do time-outs with my older kids, but not with the baby.

then your reply

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.

she said she does not do it with her baby


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 

I think its really important to instill the concept that there are consequences for your actions. It doesn't have to be in a cruel way (ie spanking, isolation etc) but the idea needs to come across. Life has consequences and I want my son to grow up knowing that what he does effects others and himself.












exactly what i think.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewcool* 
i was talking about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amylcd
I do time-outs with my older kids, but not with the baby.

then your reply

It's not that I'm against the concept when it's used it a "Whoa, Nelly, you're a little out of control. Let's take a moment to collect ourselves, shall we?" kind of way. But a baby? They don't get it. It's not discipline, which means to teach, but punishment, which, IMHO, is not something you do to a baby or even a toddler.

she said she does not do it with her baby

You completely misunderstood me.







I was referring back to the OP. I was agreeing with Amy about the concept of time-out/time-in with older children, but that I am against it when done with a baby/toddler, as the OP described.

Perhaps next time you could ask for clarification rather than assuming it was others who read incorrectly.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
I have a 21 month old. I have had 3 other 21 month olds. I have cared for other 21 month olds. I have studied 21 month olds. They are still very much babies, just beginning to be toddlers. Why would you assume we didn't read?

this is confusing to me. what you're saying here implies that all 21 month olds are developmentally the same. this clearly isn't true.

when do you think time-outs are appropriate? because i read a lot of places that they begin to "get" them at 2, and well, 21 months is pretty darn close to 2









it seems to me that you can either think time-outs are okay, or think they aren't (both valid viewpoints), but to have a hard and fast timeline for when they are suddenly okay makes little sense. we know from dealing with solids readiness for example that "readiness" can vary widely from child to child. some are ready at 5 months; some not ready until 10 months, or not interested until much later.

so couldn't one child be "ready" for time-outs at 21 months, and another not ready till 27+ months?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

The whole idea of developmental psychology says that generally, children who are the same age are at the same place cognitively, physically, etc. Unless you're dismissing the idea of developmental ages and stages completely? But yes, I am coming from the point of view that, for the most part, barring exceptionalities, most 21-month-olds are the same.

And I don't think there's anything contradictory about saying a discipline method is inappropriate for one age but not for another. I would not do time-out the way you described ("supernanny style") with any age though. With an older child, I have used a comfort corner/time-in style of "get yourself together" time.

Obviously, you think this is an appropriate way to discipline a toddler. I disagree. Which is fine. I don't think you're a bad mother or that you're abusive, I just disagree that a time-out as you described it is inappropriate for a 21-month-old (any 21-month-old). However, I also know that being a mother can be very frustrating, especially when they attack you, and I am sure you are striving to be the best and most loving mother you can be. We don't have to agree, and I apologize if you feel like I'm trying to force you to my point of view.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
The whole idea of developmental psychology says that generally, children who are the same age are at the same place cognitively, physically, etc. Unless you're dismissing the idea of developmental ages and stages completely? But yes, I am coming from the point of view that, for the most part, barring exceptionalities, most 21-month-olds are the same.

oh, okay. that helps clarify. i guess i'm skeptical of that POV, since there are kids talking in full, elaborate sentences at 12-18 months and others not speaking a word, kwim? not that i'm saying verbal ability correlates with discipline readiness; it's just an example of the extent of developmental differences that can exist in kids the same age.

Quote:

And I don't think there's anything contradictory about saying a discipline method is inappropriate for one age but not for another.
for me there is because i don't accept the above premise we were just talking about









Quote:

Obviously, you think this is an appropriate way to discipline a toddler. I disagree. Which is fine. I don't think you're a bad mother or that you're abusive, I just disagree that a time-out as you described it is inappropriate for a 21-month-old (any 21-month-old). However, I also know that being a mother can be very frustrating, especially when they attack you, and I am sure you are striving to be the best and most loving mother you can be. We don't have to agree, and I apologize if you feel like I'm trying to force you to my point of view.








thanks!







we can disagree and that's fine; i just like to understand where you're coming from and the developmental psychology assumptions were ones i didn't realize.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I always use 'ages and stages' to help orient myself with a problem behavior.
I do factor in the individual child's ability though--because it really does vary. I have been around 21 month old toddlers who were emotionally big mobile babies, barely talking, needing close proximity to mom, lots of nursing, no interest in self-care yet, not interested in exerting control over their environment yet--and toddlers the same age who were more like teeny tiny children, talking in full sentences, dressing themselves, wanting to 'do it myself', demanding a lot more control over their environment. I can't say that the same approach will work with both toddlers!

I think it is definitely possible that your dd is pushing to find the limits of this situation. I think what people are saying is that it's important, with children this young, to err on the 'gentle' side more than the 'discipline' side because there really is so much going on at this age that will resolve on it's own with time. Even the most precocious 21 month old isn't going to have the same level of cognitive ability they will in just another year. The difference from 2 to 3 is usually more drastic than the difference from, say, 6 to 7. There is a lot of change on the horizon with a 21 month old. You want to keep that in mind.

I think having limits about being hit is very legitimate. It is a healthy limit. And if you are really feeling so exasperated you want to scream, it is healthier to do some kind of time out than not. But I would leave that as a last resort. I wouldn't use it as the 'first line of discipline'. Put a lot of other stuff in your parenting toolbox first. And something to keep in mind is that you don't actually need to leave the room or even be more than an arms length away to enforce a hitting limit. This is something I didn't realize when my own ds was a toddler. It is enough to just put an arms length between you and say "No hitting, it hurts" (move her just an arms length away) and repeat until she stops slapping or shoving. You are staying so close there is no possible way to assert she will feel abandoned. The distance is just sufficient to demonstrate *what* she cannot do. She cannot hit. She can be near you. She cannot hit. She can see you right there, but she cannot hit. I think keeping the separation so very small isolates the *action* as unacceptable, but not the *child*. It may require repeated attempts of moving her just out of arms reach, she may pitch quite a fit--but if I were %100 sure nothing else was getting the point across, and I really couldn't tolerate the hitting, I think this is a very do-able way to enforce a limit on the *action* without giving the impression that you are abandoning her, or the situation.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie* 
The whole idea of developmental psychology says that generally, children who are the same age are at the same place cognitively, physically, etc. Unless you're dismissing the idea of developmental ages and stages completely? But yes, I am coming from the point of view that, for the most part, barring exceptionalities, most 21-month-olds are the same.

And I don't think there's anything contradictory about saying a discipline method is inappropriate for one age but not for another. I would not do time-out the way you described ("supernanny style") with any age though. With an older child, I have used a comfort corner/time-in style of "get yourself together" time.










I wanted to add one more thing -- as a mom & a preschool teacher --
Yes - each age has a range in terms of how advanced individual children are developmentally. However, many parents (myself included!) sometimes mistake verbal/vocabulary development with emotional and social development. There is overlap sometimes - but many kids make verbal leaps that might make it SEEM like they have a greater emotional understanding than they do.

For example, my 4 1/2 year old has a huge vocabulary, but has the impulse control, patience, etc. of a 4 1/2 year old. Sometimes I have to remind myself to adjust my expectations accordingly.

And really, barring extreme giftedness or developmental delay - there are pretty concrete developmental expectations for each age. Children do not typically develop and "internal dialogue" until they are about 7. They are not internally weighing their options. Impulse control is learned and also strengthened as other developmental milestones are met.

Readytobedone - Please don't take any of this as criticism of YOU as a parent. You came here looking for advice & it seems like many people are here to give it! None of us has this parenting gig all figured out -- that's why we come here...we ask for help when we need it and offer help when we have it to give.


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