# Spinoff: If you don't let your kids play outside alone, why not?



## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

The other thread about letting kids play outside alone unsupervised got me wondering. I have a completely fenced backyard, and I haven't had any concerns about letting my DC play out there while I'm in the house. We've been doing that for a long time. I poke my head out from time to time, but that's more out of curiousity as to what he's up to than out of any worry.

So, for those of you who aren't comfortable letting your DC play outside alone, why not? For the purposes of this, I'm talking about a fenced yard with kids who are past the oral stage. I can certainly understand not wanting your kids to play in an unfenced yard by a busy street or not wanting to let a child who puts everything in her mouth be outside alone, but what makes you not want to leave your kids alone in a fenced backyard? This is not a judgement at all! I'm just curious because it never occurred to me that there was a problem with it and now I'm wondering! Thanks!


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## delphiniumpansy (Mar 1, 2007)

I only recently started letting 4 year old dd play in the fenced backyard while I am in the house (also looking out occasionally) because our yard has a hill and we have a large dog. Previously, I was concerned about the way she plays tug with him, I did not want her to do it on the hill and tumble down. Also, the dog used to knock her over a lot as he is huge. And, she was not very good at keeping away from digging in the yard in inappropriate places. She would dig, he would dig, there would be more mud than I was happy with.

Now, I know she will not play tug on the hill, she will tell me if he starts digging, and she will not dig up flowers either. And, they will both stay in the back yard, for sure, even though she can open the gate. Front not fenced, busy street.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

I think it depends on your kid, neighborhood, etc. I was glad when DD turned 9yo b/c I felt comfy letting her out alone (we have a small yard, no fencing, etc.) She was attacked by a 7yo neighbor girl 2x. First time I thought the kids just got to rough. The second time, I walked out to see DD jumped from behind. All out punches thrown! I settled that right there and then but it was a year ago and just now DD is being allowed around the block and back herself. I play it all by ear. She is not allowed further b/c there are some other kids I don't trust and woods and water. She can't swim well and the woods pose other issues. It stinks.

At my moms house both my kids (Ds is 5 1/2 yo) are allowed outside alone to play. IMHO, it depnds on so many factors!


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

I wouldn't let my ds play outside unsupervised for safety reasons.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OdeToJoy* 
I wouldn't let my ds play outside unsupervised for safety reasons.

But, what safety reasons? I'm with the OP - I don't give it a second thought. My youngest has been playing outside totally alone since she was 18 months old. If she falls, she falls - she would've if I were there with her, right? We have no snakes, she can't leave the yard... I think Rainey wanted to know specifically why not...


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

We don't have a fenced yard at home. My parents have a fenced yard and dd (7) is still supervised when she plays there.
Reasons-
Dd is likely to leave the yard if the mood takes her. She is pretty impulsive.
My parents have items in their backyard she shouldn't play with.
The back yard can not be seen or heard clearly from inside the house. If dd was injured and alone back there she might have to wait for help if she could not walk up steps and around to the door of the house.
The older neighbor children have been known to enter my parent's fenced yard without permission even with the gate locked. They have taken things and destroyed property. I don't trust them not to come in the yard and bully my dd or try to get her to do something she shouldn't. They will stay out if an adult is out there.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I don't because it's a chain link fence and dd (5 years old) can get out without any problems. She's an intensely curious person and she would follow a butterfly out the gate just to see the colors of its wings change in the sunlight. She wouldn't realize she's done anything "wrong", but additionally, I don't think she'd be so absorbed to wander into the road. Still it worries me. As I stated in the other thread, we live on a dangerous curve that the teenagers like to take at breakneck speeds. I can see the whole back yard from my kitchen windows, but it only takes a moment of looking away.

I also worry that once out the gate, she's at the side of the house where the whole world can see that she is a pretty 5 year old unsupervised little girl. Call it paranoia, but... well, there it is.

I also don't leave her in the car for a couple of minutes, let her walk in a parking lot without holding my hand or wander around in a store.

However, I do let her climb fences, hang from swing sets, jump on trampolines, and watch our oil lamp burning on our table (unsupervised). It could be a matter of simply knowing your child's abilities.


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## Trini-soca (Apr 21, 2007)

i would let my dd play in a fenced yard unsupervised if we had one. when her and i went to trinidad to visit my fam last may she played in the yard unsupervised and she had a blast! here in america we've lived in apts all her life so having a big back and front yard full of fruit trees and "cosy holes" was such fun for her. plus kittens and puppies and a million cousins. lol


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## Village Mama (Jul 22, 2004)

We are just starting to let them play out back together without an adult... we have a very steep rickety set of stairs though without real railing thingys that is about 3 stories off of the ground because of a slope... very dangerous. I need the landlords to do somthing about it because it causes me anxiety! Also a cougar got a pitbull in one of the neighbours yards last year. Another time it was on the neighbours roof on the same side of the road as us 4 doors down. The neighbours let thier two year old play alone right next to the forest and thier yard is unfenced. I am a little bit high strung though


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

I would NOT allow my dd to play outside alone until she was older - unless I was sitting right inside able to watch the entire time.

She would have to be old enough to understand that if anyone came to the backyard - even a friend - she should run right inside and simply say "Oh, I'll go and get my mommy for you." and if it were a stranger she should just run as fast as she could and say nothing.

The ugly statistics are that 1 in 3 girls is molested. I would be suspicious if a friend were to enter the backyard and not try the front door first. Or maybe it would be a friend whom I would never be suspicious about, but I would never try to tell my dd which friends could be trusted implicitly and which couldn't. Heck, I would just trust them ALL implicitly - except that I know in this day and age you just can't be too careful.

We do not allow dd to go with the "daycare" at a consignment sale, or to go to the church nursery, or anything like that. I am shocked that most parents feel perfectly comfortable with these things. Shocked that they don't mind someone they don't know watching their child, shocked that their child doesn't mind going with strangers - or that if the child minds the parent thinks it's nothing. I mean just look at the abuse that has arisen out of the Catholic church's recent history. Not to pick on them, just that it has been publicized. But churche's are perfect places for predators. Parents are often so trusting they just let their kids run all over out of sight after services. And forget about nurseries at church! The people running them have no background checks, sometimes no experience with kids etc.

Getting off track - back to the backyard. I just would not be comfortable that soemone would not sneak in - over a fence even - and harm my child. Yes, that is a VERY slim chance. Prob more chance of getting into a car accident I suppose. But NO I don't think I'm being paranoid. Next to impossible to live w/o transportation, but very ez to watch your child in the backyard or not let them there alone. And also, I thik it's often easier for the body to heal than for an emotional trauma to heal. Easier to understand that there was a car accident than to understand that someone snuck into my own backyard and in essence home, to molest or kidnap.

And if people are kidnapping kids out of bedrooms at night, and 1 in 3 girls is molested, then I just think you can't be too careful. I am not fearful or paranoid. Just choose to take what i consider healthy precautiouns each day to protect my dd. I think you can do this in a way that protects a child but still allows them to be a child and doesn't make them paranoid or allow them no space - so like letting them play w me watching from a window - or sitting reading my book so we are each "in our own world etc"

Ok, enough rambling...


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## annekevdbroek (Jun 5, 2005)

DS has played outside in our fenced backyard since about age 2 1/2 or so. I leave the back door open. He does not open the gate, we have no dogs, no hills, and no friends/strangers unexpectedly coming into the backyard. I can hear everything happening (I stay in the room near the door). I can see most of the yard and deck from the sofa or if I am working at the kitchen sink. I actually really like that he'll play outside because he isn't much of one for independent play.


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## mum5 (Apr 10, 2004)

AttatchedMama, I totally agree with you!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Attachedmama - you've articulated what I did not have the energy or time to say. I totally agree. My summary was "better safe than sorry". I applaud your post.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

I think it totally depends on your yard, and your kid. My "fenced" yard had a split rail fence a toddler could have gone under in a heartbeat, it also had an alley running along it, with drivers who occaisionally pulled into the driveway to turn around, and it's less than a block from a very busy street. Finally, it had a steep set of concrete stairs going down to the basement -- perfect for a child to tumble down. So we waited a long time for him to be outside alone -- at 4 maybe if the door was open and I was right by it keeping an eye out, not until 5 or 6 for any real length of time.

DS was very big on putting things in his mouth -- EVERYTHING went in his mouth until he was about 2 1/2 so realistically unless I had a yard with nothing in it but grass (not plants or mulch or rocks he could choke on, no worms to dig up and eat) I wouldn't have let him outside alone. But after that -- if I had a fence I knew he couldn't climb or slip under, and a gate that locked or at least latched tight enough to keep him in, and no obvious hazards like snakes or rats (I live in the city so that's a bigger threat) or the stairs I mentioned, then yes I would have felt safe.


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## delphiniumpansy (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
The ugly statistics are that 1 in 3 girls is molested. I would be suspicious if a friend were to enter the backyard and not try the front door first.

These are very valid fears of which you write but statistically they are also very rare occurrences. I feel it is also very important for children to play outside and that cannot always be attended 100%. And, children need to do things on their own, without us near them 100%. We cannot succomb to the fears around us and limit our children's life experiences to the point where they don't get much outdoor time. To me, that would be a real tragedy.

As parents, it does behoove us to monitor our children and safeguard them. But, we cannot protect our children from every possibility. We have to make choices. There has to be balance; we have to balance our fears with the freedom to let our children grow.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

These are very valid fears of which you write but statistically they are also very rare occurrences. I feel it is also very important for children to play outside and that cannot always be attended 100%. And, children need to do things on their own, without us near them 100%. We cannot succomb to the fears around us and limit our children's life experiences to the point where they don't get much outdoor time. To me, that would be a real tragedy.

As parents, it does behoove us to monitor our children and safeguard them. But, we cannot protect our children from every possibility. We have to make choices. There has to be balance; we have to balance our fears with the freedom to let our children grow.
I totally agree. You better serve your children to teach them to listen to their inner voice, to teach them correct names for body parts, etc. when it comes to protecting them from those types of dangers. Teaching them to be fearful that someone will come into the yard and snatch them or harm them creates a lot of unnecessary and unrealistic fear. They need to have experiences that are separate from their parents. To become fully absorbed in the world of imagination. To sometimes do things that are a little risky (like climb too high up the tree) to learn their limits and build their confidence. You can't protect them from life in the long term and childhood is when they should be learning these lessons. It is crucial to their development. Obviously if their are actual dangers present it would be different (no fence and lots of traffic, predatory animals, etc) but in a fenced back yard they should be safe. It is prudent to check on them every so often, but if they are having enough fun you will hear their shrieks of joy anyway


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I would not let a child under the age of 6 be ANYWHERE that I could not hear them alone. So no, I would not have allowed my kids to be outside at that age alone since I could not hear them.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I live in a city neighborhood that is very safe and residential, but there are alleys behind the yards that anyone can drive down, and our dividing fence is not of the high wooden sort, so no way. I might feel differently in a 'burb with a high wooden fence. I dont' know.

I think it really depends, though I don't think not doing so means I'm being overprotective. He still gets absorbed in his own little world all the time. I'm not trying to protect him for the rest of his life, I just don't feel comfortable with it now.


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## cmhotzler (May 29, 2005)

We live in suburban neighborhood of a big metro area...that being said-they have been allowed to play in the backyard from about 2 1/2 yrs. old because we have a wonderful adult German Shephard (who would never allow a stranger to enter the yard) and because we have a 8 ft.privacy fence around the whole thing! But...they are not allowed to play in the front yard of this wonderful neighborhood until they are 7 yrs. old. We don't have a lot of traffic, but you never know when a weirdo will drive up. My 9 yr. old is very leary of strangers and would be fine, but my almost 7 yr. old would go off with anyone if they told her they were looking for their puppy/kitty/child etc. and this is after much "safety" talks. She just trusts everyone and has such an innocent view of the the world. Guess it depends on the child.


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## pixiesmommy (Apr 19, 2007)

Yikes!! NO way!!

I would not let her do it in when we lived in NC in the country because of strangers wandering in the woods, people hunting and the possibility that a stray bullet might enter our yard, and wild rabid animals that wandered up from time to time! I wouldn't have trusted a fence in place of supervision!!!

I don't do it here in midwest suburbia because of the fear of kidnapping/molestation and of other CHILDREN hurting her more than adults, actually. We also have a lake behind out house that it doesn't take much to scale a fence and get down to the pretty water and ducks, etc and drown. We've also seen big animals here in the daytime that should be nocturnal and it's impossible to tell if it's because they have no homes anymore/are out gathering food for their young or are rabid. There have been raccoons and possums out here in the middle of the day, an occasional HUGE deer running at breakneck speed through our yard, mean geese from the lake, unleashed dogs, foxes, etc.

We also eat lots of herbs and flowers from my garden, but some are poison and just for decoration. Although she knows to ask before picking something and eating, I can't trust a 6 yr old 100% to not pop a lovely flower in her mouth just because she THINKS it's one we use in salad.

I do think that we should let our children have freedoms, and she does. I do think that she should be able to climb a tree or play on the playground without me hovering over her, but that doesn't mean I'm going to not supervise her and set bounderies either. She does need to learn what is safe and what is not. Unfortunately, there are things that just aren't safe- it's not that I'm trying to fill her with fear (believe me, my mom would not even let me put on my shoes as a child without checking them inside for spiders, so I know all about that!)--- but I think some fear is healthy.

'Manda


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## mavery (Jun 3, 2005)

I think it always depends on the child and the neighbourhood. I let my ds play in the unfenced front yard in our quiet street and I check on him frequently from the front window. He knows to stay on our lawn, he is mostly interested in digging in the dirt and making up stories in his head. Our neighbours do the same thing - we see the kids out front and parents peeking out. Our street runs in a circle so there are very few random passersby.

In our previous house we would never have done it -- much busier street, neighbours we know less well, street used as a throughway to get to other areas in the neighbourhood.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yellowpansy* 
These are very valid fears of which you write but statistically they are also very rare occurrences. I feel it is also very important for children to play outside and that cannot always be attended 100%. And, children need to do things on their own, without us near them 100%. We cannot succomb to the fears around us and limit our children's life experiences to the point where they don't get much outdoor time. To me, that would be a real tragedy.

As parents, it does behoove us to monitor our children and safeguard them. But, we cannot protect our children from every possibility. We have to make choices. There has to be balance; we have to balance our fears with the freedom to let our children grow.


We are all entitled to our own opinions and parenting styles of course... but I fail to see how "1 in 3" is as you put it, statistically a rare occurrence.

I agree that it is very important that children play outside and that they do things on their own. I do not limit my dd's life experiences so she doesn't get much outdoor time. At not quite 2 she recognizes the call of a chickadee, has pointed out a bald eagle to us, finds buds on branches etc. And sometimes she just wanders and plays. We have succeeded in doing this despite the fact that we live in an apt bldg with no outdoor space to play. Like I said in my original post, you can monitor - from a distance or even from inside if you have a home - so that the child still feels like they are on their own.

And I don't see how when we soon have a house, my letting her play outside while I peer thru the window, sitting by it, or sit in the other corner of the yard reading, is not letting her have her space or is teaching her fear. I think it's just a good precaution.

Also telling kids names for their body parts etc is a good thing - but not a preventative measure. That just helps so that maybe if something happens, then maybe they will know how to tell you. But when the perpetrator tells them it is their fault and don't tell your mommy or daddy even if they told you it's ok because you were bad and thats' why this happened or if you tell mommy and daddy then I will hurt them too -ad infinitum - most very young children will live in fear and believe that. And those *are* the kinds of things said to children who are molested.

One in 3 *is* a high statistic - and it spans urban, rural, poor, middle class and wealthy. I will do all I can to protect my dd, not in a paranoid way and telling her that every person might hurt her etc, but I will keep her in my sight until she is much older and able to follow simple instructions such as "come get mommy if someone comes in the yard". That kind of simple instruction does not bring fear with it -and I will prob say something like "I'ts important that mommy knows right away when we have guests so that I can greet them myself and make them feel welcome" or something.

Just my opinion...


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I get that we all have different ideas about this, but I really don't think that those of us who don't allow them to play alone outside at the ages of 2, 3, or 4 or 5 are not allowing them freedom to grow, or succumbing to fears, limiting outdoor time, or trying to protect them from any and every possibility. I think that's really a stretch and almost a little insulting,actually. We don't sit indoors in fear. I'm just kind of trying to keep him safe, period. I'm not breathing down his neck or instilling fear in him.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Even if it's true that 1 in 3 girls is molested, most of them are not molested by strangers. The number of kids who are molested or abducted by strangers is certainly very small. And I doubt it's more of a risk for a 3 year old playing in her own yard than for a 12 year old riding his bike half a mile to his friend's house, or a 16 year old walking around the mall with her friends. If you're afraid to let your preschool kid play alone in your yard because of the threat of abduction/molestation, it seems like you'd have to be equally afraid to let your preteen or teen ever go anywhere alone.


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

We live in a quiet suburb with no wild animal or water concerns and have a 6 foot privacy fence. I've let my DD1 play outside alone since she was an older 3--I consider her a particularly mature and thoughtful child, and I open all the back windows and stay near where I can hear her. That said, I do NOT see the same thing happening for my DD2, who is way more impulsive and daring--oh, SO daring







: She's the "climb to the top of the jungle gym and see if she can fly" kind of kid.

I don't let my DD1 play in the side or front yards alone, and I have no idea at what age I'll feel comfortable doing so. Probably older than 7 or 8, because I'm completely paranoid. I can't even fathom letting her go around the block, but I'm sure that will come when she's older. I totally agree with Daffodil, and statistically she's correct, but we live very near where Megan Kanka was abducted and I've just heard too many stories. That, combined with my overactive imagination, gives me a hard time







Then again, I know far more people who were molested by "trusted" family members (including one of my best friends and most of the women in my immediate family on my dad's side) than have ever even been approached by strangers.

Bottom line, it depends on your kid, your neighborhood, and your sense of safety.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

We just started to let our son go down the street to play on his own. We do watch him walk down and periodically look out. Prior to this year, we always were with him. We have no backyard and our front yard is minimal. We have friends with a totally fenced back yard and the kids will play there by themselves. The youngest boy is soon to be 3. We closely monitored his playing, but all the kids were also looking out for him. If the backyard had not been totally fenced there is no way they would have been allowed to be there unsupervised.

My personal feeling is that it is irresponsible to leave young children, as in 5 or younger, unsupervised to play. THIS IS MY OPINION. I know that it differs from others.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I let DS1 when he was 7. He is only allowed in my or the neighbor's yard. We have tons of kids in the neighborhood that come over to our yard (we don't have a fence)


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Even if it's true that 1 in 3 girls is molested, most of them are not molested by strangers. The number of kids who are molested or abducted by strangers is certainly very small. And I doubt it's more of a risk for a 3 year old playing in her own yard than for a 12 year old riding his bike half a mile to his friend's house, or a 16 year old walking around the mall with her friends. If you're afraid to let your preschool kid play alone in your yard because of the threat of abduction/molestation, it seems like you'd have to be equally afraid to let your preteen or teen ever go anywhere alone.

I understand that most of them are not molested by strangers - which is why I already stated that my dd when older will be instructed on how to make our guests feel welcome by immed saying "let me go inside to tell my mommy you are here" so that I can greet them and make them feel welcome. That does not instill fear and still protects her.

As for older kids - the difference is that my preteen or teen is going to know enough to run even if a gun is pulled on them, to fight back, to tell me if someone tries something, to not go near a car to "give directions" etc They would not be intimidated by someone telling them lies that they will hurt dd's parents if she tells or that it's all her fault etc. So in that case, riding a bike to friends or going to the mall is much safer.

Also a preteen/teen is going to be smart enough to know to take precautions hopefully- like stay with a friend at all times, don't go in secluded places etc etc. At least they are smart enough to know those precautions and understand the reasons...


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

I don't let my kids play outside alone because we have no yard at all. All we have is a sidewalk next to an intersection. My 8yo has enough maturity now to be able to sit on the porch with a friend or jump rope on the sidewalk, but I just started letting her do it. My other two? No way.

And yet I know thats obviously just me because I can look up and down the street and see kids still in diapers playing on the sidewalk with no parents in sight and cars whizzing by. No thanks. It just doesn't seem responsible parenting to me.


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## DebHibb (Mar 31, 2006)

Wow! I just can't imagine living my life with such fear. It's amazing I'm still alive, and unmaimed remembering all the crazy things my laid back mom let me do. I've broken bones, and I have a lot of small scars, but I had a blast doing it. I'd really like to see the 1 in 3 girls are molested statistic, since I can't find it anywhere. Also, I'm guessing as with any such statistic, one needs to read the fine print. Fear sells, so that's what the media sells. I rarely watch the news because it angers me in this aspect. It also encourages the governement and businesses to infringe laws/rules upon my freedom.

Anyway, I let my DS run around in the backyard all the time (since about a month ago when the weather warmed up). My biggest concern is that he will fall and hurt himself, but then he could do that even if I'm back there with him, and I'm not about to hold his hand constantly (even if he would let me, which he won't). I have a fenced yard, no wild animals (although I do have a dog), & no freaky neighbors (and even if I did, I'd still let him play outside). My 5 yr old plays in the front yard with minimal supervision all the time - riding his bike or scooter up and down the sidewalk/driveway. I have limits that I enforce, and DS is good about following them. If something happened to either one of my children, I'd be devastated, but I will not shelter my children, and refuse to live in fear.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Believe it or not, some people are just more protective than you but do not live in fear or completely shelter their chlidren.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
The ugly statistics are that 1 in 3 girls is molested. I would be suspicious if a friend were to enter the backyard and not try the front door first. Or maybe it would be a friend whom I would never be suspicious about, but I would never try to tell my dd which friends could be trusted implicitly and which couldn't. <snip>

We do not allow dd to go with the "daycare" at a consignment sale, or to go to the church nursery, or anything like that. I am shocked that most parents feel perfectly comfortable with these things. <snip>

Parents are often so trusting they just let their kids run all over out of sight after services. And forget about nurseries at church! The people running them have no background checks, sometimes no experience with kids etc.

Stranger abductions are rare, very rare. Even most cases of kidnapping are custody disputes. As you acknowledged, children are more at risk from people you know than they are from strangers. I refuse to live my life in fear of something that is probably as remote as my dying from being struck on the head by a stray icicle. (yes, this did happen to people in Minnesota where I grew up!)

I think that living in fear about every little thing makes us less sensitive to real fears. The world, contrary to popular opinion, is not a more dangerous place than when I grew up. We were just less aware. The statistics of 1 in 4 girls being molested/raped is accurate (not sure where you got 1 in 3) and has been that way for a long time.

I am more cautious about where I leave my kids. One of the reasons I'm comfortable leaving my kids in our church nursery is because we have PAID attendants who have had a background check. And because there are always 2 adults (or an adult and teen) in the nursery at all times. It's a simple precaution that protects both my kids and the caregivers. OK, I do let them run around after services, but that's because there are about 25 eyes on them at all times. If I say "Where's M?" 10 people will tell me where she is!

I don't leave my kids at drop in daycare. I refused to leave my kids at the daycare at the gym when we belonged when they responded to my question about background checks as if I had 2 heads.

I don't force my kids to say hello or talk to people. I honor their instincts. When we're out, they are within my sight at all times. But my backyard? Nah. Not at 6 and nearly 3. They're safe there.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiesmommy* 
Although she knows to ask before picking something and eating, I can't trust a 6 yr old 100% to not pop a lovely flower in her mouth just because she THINKS it's one we use in salad.

I know you are probably only talking about your child and not 6yo's in general, but I can't imagine not being able to trust a 6yo to not eat things in the yard. I mean, they're six, not two. And I say that as a mom of a 6yo...


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

It's not about living in fear.

For me, it's just that I don't have anything more pressing in life than to just be where my dd is when she is in a questionable situation ( like being outside by herself). I don't really need to be in the kitchen doing dishes when she's outside playing. The dishes can wait so that I can give that extra bit of time for her to be fully supervised. This is just me. I have only 1 child. This works for my situation. I'm not criticizing anyone else... please don't take it that way. It's just that 1 in a million odds of my dd being abducted is too much and it's something I can VERY EASILY prevent. I can't keep her out of the car - we have to drive... and an accident is not something I have control over other than to be as safe as *I* can be on the road. It's a bad analogy because there are too many variables outside of our control on the road. At home, just being outside with dd *IS* completely within my control. I let her explore and do things that might be construed as dangerous (climbing fences, trees, hanging from poles that are 12 feet high... she's even had her token broken foot from jumping, so she's familiar with casts and broken bones). But by simply putting aside what I am doing to spend the time on the deck with a book (and it's a great break for me), I can prevent her from becoming (even a 1 in a million) statistic.

So, I guess what I am saying is that there is nothing important enough to me to *not* be out there with her, so why stay in the house just to "give her independence". Especially among APers... why give the independence at such a young age? I'm sure by the time dd is old enough to go off to college, I won't be going outside with her.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Kailey is 6 and not allowed to go out by herself except in the front yard. We do not have a fenced in yard and we also have people walking through our yard to get to the soup kitchen behind us. These are not the same people but different ones all the time. I don't know them and don't trust them (not because they are homeless), just as I wouldn't automatically trust any stranger adult with my child.

It isn't about living in fear, but about being safe and using common sense. I also remember a news story about a young boy who was taken out of his backyard that had a fence.

I am in charge of ensuring that my daughter is safe, so I am going to take reasonable precautions to ensure her safety.


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## sarahmae1 (Nov 11, 2002)

The reason I don't let my kids play outside by themselves is for their safety. Mainly because I don't want them to be molested or kidnapped. It can happen anywhere, in a safe, good neighborhood, it doesn't matter. It may not be very likely, and I know that its more common by people your child knows, but I'm not willing to take the chance. I don't mind being called overprotective, or maybe even a little irrational or paranoid. IMO, its my job to keep my children safe and this is what I feel is best. The other reasons also being safety related - ie: they could fall and get hurt, or somehow get out into the road and get hit by a car, etc.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I don't let ds outside alone because of where we live. I would have no problem elsewhere. We live a short walk from an economically depressed part of the city. We find drug paraphernalia in our bushes. A man with a knife broke through our locked front door while we were home last year. He assumed we must be rich because our house is big. He wasn't the first intruder, either.

A couple of days ago, I went for a walk with ds on his new bike. We noticed a large group of young adults congregating in front of the grade school. We managed to get past and away before a fight broke out. The firehouse was nearby so we stopped there and asked the guys to call the police. My ds is never going anywhere alone where we live. I'm concerned when he gets older that he will be targeted by gang members that want to "prove" themselves.

Growing up here, my brother had his bike taken from him while he was riding it and two of my brothers were held up at gunpoint.


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## redwolf2 (Jan 3, 2006)

I don't let me dd play outside alone, either. We live on a corner lot and thouh we have a fenced yard it is accessible to those passing by. ALot of people walk in our neighborhood, though not a main street, a busy one through the neighborhood.

If we lived with houses on both sides of us and I could see the yard from the kitchen window or something, I probably would let her play outside alone. We have a privacy deck off the kitchen and i close the door to the deck and I put our dog out there with her. That is the only outside alone time allowed.

I wish i felt more comfortable but I can barely read a paper or watch the news any longer without crying about some kid getting killed/molested, or something awful. (which is why we no longer have a TV







)


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## pixiesmommy (Apr 19, 2007)

I have to defend my previous post because when we lived in NC and had not garden my dd knew better than to EVER eat anything outside, and she was probably 3 when she learned this, or even younger. She never was a "mouther" anyway, so I'm certainly not saying that all 6 yr olds will eat things from the yard.... I just meant that since we grow herbs and flowers, etc that I don't want her confusing a marigold for a poisonous weed!! If I'm out there with her, she does point and ask "is this okay?" and pop things in her mouth for a snack while she's playing- which I love that we're able to do! Chives are her favorite so far.
I certainly don't hover over her- I go out and sit with a book, etc. and let her play off in another corner of the yard, or even clean the kitchen facing the window so I can see her on the patio.
She's a smart kid and she's awesome at following rules, but she's just not mature enough, IMO, to be completely unsupervised.

'Manda


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

My friend who's in real estate told me recently that until the 1950's, houses were built with kitchens in the front of the house so moms could watch their kids play out in front. Since then, they have been built with kitchens in the back of the house so moms could watch their kids in the backyard.

Interesting how changes with the times influence architecture like that...

Anyway, this thread reminded me of that...


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Believe it or not, some people are just more protective than you but do not live in fear or completely shelter their chlidren.

Yup, I agree, and I'm a protective mama but I do not live in fear.

My children are allowed to play in our backyard but we keep a window or sliding glass door open to hear them. We have a 6 ft high privacy fence and no alley and we have padlocks on our gates. My children are 8 and 5. They do not play in the front yard unsupervised.

I've known children and adults molested/assaulted by strangers so I guess the allegedly low statistics simply don't make me feel safer, at all. I also know two people who have won the lottery...one won $6 million and another won $50K, which is quite the statistical anomaly, right?


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

I let my 2 DD's (almost 5/almost 4) play in our backyard. Usually when they are out there I am in the kitchen or family room where I can either see or hear them. We have a tall block fence, we don't have a pool, only turtles in the yard, etc....They "check in" pretty often anyways. Now, if we had a pool or something else where I feared for their safety, I would not let them play outside unsupervised.

The one time I realized I could not hear them, I found them playing Doctor on the side yard.









I would never allow them to play in the front yard unsupervised.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

and the front yard is the only safe place to play at our house. The backyard is unfenced and lined by forest. The front yard has a 3 foot high wall barrier abd we have huge windows to see out of.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I would not let a child under the age of 6 be ANYWHERE that I could not hear them alone. So no, I would not have allowed my kids to be outside at that age alone since I could not hear them.

Well I can hear them playing in the back yard, I really can. They're loud!! The backyard has walls all around it, except one side which is fenced and the fence is really high. We do not eat plants from the garden (too small to plant anything actually, except grass) no high trees (same reason), no animals, strangers cannot walk around the house to the backyard, they need to walk through the front door to get there. Even thinking hard about it, I see no apparent dangers. So, yes, I do let them play outside alone, absolutely. Of course, I also do check on them regularly, but then honestly it is more because they are prone to making huge monstrous messes (like "decorating the garden with toilet paper" or "feeding the cookies to the birds") which take quite some time to undo. I really envy those that have time to just relax when the kids play outside but that's not me right now. Also, I have to say, the kids play much better between themselves when we adults are out of sight. When I am present, even if trying to read a book, their jealousy seems to prime over and above the joy of playing with their sister.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I won't (nor DH...we agree) let DS play outside alone for a long time....maybe Age 9 or 10. And that's WITH a fenced in back yard.

And people can call me "overprotective" or "helicopter Mom" all they want. I simply do not care.

Why? Just look at the news. There's your "Why" right there.

And really, I'd like to know this: What harm could possibly result in being overprotective of our Kids?

If I was on either end of the spectrum-Neglectful vs. Overprotective, wouldn't it be better to be on the Overprotective end?


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## BennyPai (Jul 22, 2005)

Yes. I have gone inside while my daughters (3yrs. & 18 mos.) play in the yard with friends during the day. I do check often through windows and by popping out. So far, I've done this at a friend's house. I don't have a fenced yard at home.

However, after school gets out there are a lot of neighborhood kids in and out of each other's yards and I stay outside to supervise then. My friend has an older son with older friends and I can't blindly trust them. I was abused as a child and I don't blindly trust _anyone._ Abuse can happen at any time of day in any place. I also don't let my toddlers go into rooms where neighbors are visiting unless I accompany them.
At their ages, my daughters are unable to analyze/avoid this type of risk. When their capabilities in this department change, I will hover less.


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## christophersmom (Sep 20, 2005)

DS is 3 1/2 and I think he is not ready tp play outside by himself. Not sure when I would.
I think it is a safety issue (our yard is only partially fenced) and he would need a playmate, so I am out there.


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## HipGal (Aug 16, 2006)

I wouldn't let my ds play outside alone for safety reasons. I'm not so much worried about someone coming and abducting him, just that there are things out there that are not for kids (tool shed, garbage can, etc.). I remember hearing on the news one time how a toddler was unsupervised outside and fell into a bucket that had filled with rainwater and drowned. I'm sure there are other dangers like that which I haven't even thought of.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
And really, I'd like to know this: What harm could possibly result in being overprotective of our Kids?

Well I think there's a lot of profound, yet subtle, harm that happens to our kids when we're overprotective, but maybe that's because I'm not...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
If I was on either end of the spectrum-Neglectful vs. Overprotective, wouldn't it be better to be on the Overprotective end?









Why are these the only choices?


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I would go nuts if I had to be outside with my kids all the time they wanted to be outside







So yes, all my kids can play outside in the fenced back yard all alone. I don't do the front yard as we have a busy street there, although it is just a neighborhood street, people drive like looneys because it connects two major streets. Nuts!







:
I also let my kids run free at parks too. I am not a helicopter mom








I mean I can see them, but I am no where near them most of the time.
My prespective really changed after I read the Conitium Concept (sp). I was very over protective with my dd and I feel it did her a real disservice, she had alot of fears that I am sure where instilled in her because of dh and I. My boys never had those fears because we let them "go" when they were ready. We are near by, but not right in their space. At 12 my dd is finally having the courage to move about without us, ok it has been a few years, but it took her along time to trust herself. I feel bad about that.

H


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
I would NOT allow my dd to play outside alone until she was older - unless I was sitting right inside able to watch the entire time.

She would have to be old enough to understand that if anyone came to the backyard - even a friend - she should run right inside and simply say "Oh, I'll go and get my mommy for you." and if it were a stranger she should just run as fast as she could and say nothing.

The ugly statistics are that 1 in 3 girls is molested. I would be suspicious if a friend were to enter the backyard and not try the front door first. Or maybe it would be a friend whom I would never be suspicious about, but I would never try to tell my dd which friends could be trusted implicitly and which couldn't. Heck, I would just trust them ALL implicitly - except that I know in this day and age you just can't be too careful.

We do not allow dd to go with the "daycare" at a consignment sale, or to go to the church nursery, or anything like that. I am shocked that most parents feel perfectly comfortable with these things. Shocked that they don't mind someone they don't know watching their child, shocked that their child doesn't mind going with strangers - or that if the child minds the parent thinks it's nothing. I mean just look at the abuse that has arisen out of the Catholic church's recent history. Not to pick on them, just that it has been publicized. But churche's are perfect places for predators. Parents are often so trusting they just let their kids run all over out of sight after services. And forget about nurseries at church! The people running them have no background checks, sometimes no experience with kids etc.

Getting off track - back to the backyard. I just would not be comfortable that soemone would not sneak in - over a fence even - and harm my child. Yes, that is a VERY slim chance. Prob more chance of getting into a car accident I suppose. But NO I don't think I'm being paranoid. Next to impossible to live w/o transportation, but very ez to watch your child in the backyard or not let them there alone. And also, I thik it's often easier for the body to heal than for an emotional trauma to heal. Easier to understand that there was a car accident than to understand that someone snuck into my own backyard and in essence home, to molest or kidnap.

And if people are kidnapping kids out of bedrooms at night, and 1 in 3 girls is molested, then I just think you can't be too careful. I am not fearful or paranoid. Just choose to take what i consider healthy precautiouns each day to protect my dd. I think you can do this in a way that protects a child but still allows them to be a child and doesn't make them paranoid or allow them no space - so like letting them play w me watching from a window - or sitting reading my book so we are each "in our own world etc"

Ok, enough rambling...









You're probably going to take a great deal of criticism for this post, but I can't say strongly enough how much I agree with you. I could've written your post in the sense that you speak my mind.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Even if it's true that 1 in 3 girls is molested, most of them are not molested by strangers. The number of kids who are molested or abducted by strangers is certainly very small. *And I doubt it's more of a risk for a 3 year old playing in her own yard than for a 12 year old riding his bike half a mile to his friend's house, or a 16 year old walking around the mall with her friends.* If you're afraid to let your preschool kid play alone in your yard because of the threat of abduction/molestation, it seems like you'd have to be equally afraid to let your preteen or teen ever go anywhere alone.

Here's why I disagree with what you said.

1. As others have said, a 3-year-old can hurt him/herself while alone in a yard by eating rocks or poison plants, or by falling.

2. Aside from that problem, she or he can wander out of the yard.

3. Strangers can come into the yard.

4. A child of three is utterly unable to defend her/himself. A preteen or teen is far more able to defend her/himself, and in addition, a preteen or teen has a wealth of knowledge of how the world works -- how to use a phone, how to find a police station, how to call 911, and so on -- far more than a three-year-old. One would hope that they would also have better judgment about the safety of strangers and situations than a three-year-old.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Why? Just look at the news. There's your "Why" right there.

And really, I'd like to know this: What harm could possibly result in being overprotective of our Kids?

If I was on either end of the spectrum-Neglectful vs. Overprotective, wouldn't it be better to be on the Overprotective end?









Check out the book Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder
by Richard Louv.

Reading this book is one of the factors that solidified my choice to stay living in a rural area
(where I said I would never raise children







) instead of living in the city that I used to love.

When I was a child my brother (15 years older than I am) thought it was really important that
I know how to defend myself. He taught me several maneuvers and would "attack" me every
so often as a test. I've done the same thing with my dd.

We live on 3 unfenced acres. With neighbors with many acres on each side so our yard large.
Dd is only 6, so for now she knows the boundaries of how far she is allowed to travel in the
yard. I set up a playhouse and swing set in view of my kitchen windows so I can watch her
play while making dinner and cleaning up. A lot of dd's outdoor time she travels beyond the
kitchen window view. This summer she will be allowed to walk threw the woods with a timer
set at 15 minutes for her to come home.

As a child I was allowed to explore my, populated neighborhood, myself by age 5. We lived
on a very busy street, but behind us wasn't as bad. These are some of my best memories as
a child. My friends and I would pack lunches and bike to the park or walk threw the woods.
It was the best. I want my dd to have those same experiences. I gained a lot of self confidence
during those times.

Another thing, we can't really judge the world around us by the media. The media is mostly
hype. I feel it's teaching us to fear the world around us. I know a lot of bad things can happen
to myself or my child. I hope that with our frequent talks of how she can protect herself that
will help her stay safe. I want to teach her how to listen to her inner voice. I want to teach
her to trust herself. I personally don't believe that the world is a scary place. I do personally
believe that I would be doing my dd a disservice if I didn't allow her some without me play
outside. She is a different child without me. When I'm outside she is showing off her skills
on the play ground. Without me I watch her walking along small paths, making up stories,
picking flowers.

It's not a perfect plan. It's just our plan. I totally respect other's points of view on this.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I won't (nor DH...we agree) let DS play outside alone for a long time....maybe Age 9 or 10. And that's WITH a fenced in back yard.

And people can call me "overprotective" or "helicopter Mom" all they want. I simply do not care.

Why? Just look at the news. There's your "Why" right there.

And really, I'd like to know this: What harm could possibly result in being overprotective of our Kids?

If I was on either end of the spectrum-Neglectful vs. Overprotective, wouldn't it be better to be on the Overprotective end?









Can you help me understand this? Can people get into your back yard from outside (going around the house) or not? Because if they can, I understand your point. And it is true your dc is only 3 yo, so I would also not let him unsupervised for long stretches of time. But then, "until age 8 or 9" mmmhhh that is different. IMO, even indoors there are a lot of dangers - I mean a child can also get seriously injured by climbing on a shelf or whatever - but there is no way I can possibly watch them ALL. THE. TIME. (inside or outside). I do not think it is healthy even. In a sense, the backyard experience - for those children lucky enough to have a backyard - is a building block of their self-esteem, their belief in their own capacity to solve their own little problems, without calling Mommy to the rescue. That capacity, down the line, is our most effective defense.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
I do personally believe that I would be doing my dd a disservice if I didn't allow her some without me play outside. She is a different child without me. When I'm outside she is showing off her skills on the play ground. Without me I watch her walking along small paths, making up stories, picking flowers.

I have the same experience. When I am in the backyard, the children want to play with me. When they're on their own, they play with one another. Also, when I go down, they want to play ball in a rather organized way (their rules but rules nonetheless). On their own, I see a lot of purely purposeless play - touching dirt, smelling flowers, picking grass. Oh, for those moments, for those precious moments, they really are little kids.


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## caeden&connersmom (Apr 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
We live on 3 unfenced acres. With neighbors with many acres on each side so our yard large.
Dd is only 6, so for now she knows the boundaries of how far she is allowed to travel in the
yard. I set up a playhouse and swing set in view of my kitchen windows so I can watch her
play while making dinner and cleaning up. A lot of dd's outdoor time she travels beyond the
kitchen window view. This summer she will be allowed to walk threw the woods with a timer
set at 15 minutes for her to come home.

As a child I was allowed to explore my, populated neighborhood, myself by age 5. We lived
on a very busy street, but behind us wasn't as bad. These are some of my best memories as
a child. My friends and I would pack lunches and bike to the park or walk threw the woods.
It was the best. I want my dd to have those same experiences. I gained a lot of self confidence
during those times.

Another thing, we can't really judge the world around us by the media. The media is mostly
hype. I feel it's teaching us to fear the world around us. I know a lot of bad things can happen
to myself or my child. I hope that with our frequent talks of how she can protect herself that
will help her stay safe. I want to teach her how to listen to her inner voice. I want to teach
her to trust herself. I personally don't believe that the world is a scary place. I do personally
believe that I would be doing my dd a disservice if I didn't allow her some without me play
outside. She is a different child without me. When I'm outside she is showing off her skills
on the play ground. Without me I watch her walking along small paths, making up stories,
picking flowers.

It's not a perfect plan. It's just our plan. I totally respect other's points of view on this.

Yes! We also live in the country, 3 acres surrounded by more acres. My mom and stepfather, g-ma and aunt live in the neighboring houses. My 5 y/o walks through their blueberry field to go visit them. I let my 5 and 3 yo play outside unsupervised. They live to go outside all day! Sometimes I am out their working in the yard, sometimes not. They know they are not allowed near the road and mostly play on the stone walls or the swings and sandbox.

I love watching them when they dont know it, it is so cool to see them interact and make decisions themselves.

I grew up on the farm next door and remember the days of playing out on the ledges in the blueberry field with my cousins from about the age of 5. We would be gone all day! Or spending the day exploring in the barn with all the farm equipment. Climbing up into the loft on those ricketly ladders or watching homemade boats floating in the stream. (OMG we were always in the stream!)

And all this I mentioned, my family still considers me overprotective! (I come from a very laid back family and my sis and I were latchkey from about the age of 7)

Things I worry about are wild animals, stray dogs and the cars on the road.

We previously lived in a house witha fenced yard, backed up to an alley with a busy street and the boys were NEVER allowed outside alone. My stepson was 12 before we let him roam. The area was not good at all and I did not feel comfortable letting them out by themselves in that environment. So I can see where a lot of moms are coming from. Thats why we moved.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
Can you help me understand this? Can people get into your back yard from outside (going around the house) or not? Because if they can, I understand your point.

For me, one of the overprotective mothers that won't let her 5 year old outside to play by herself... yes, you can see the back edge of the back yard from the road and it is enclosed only by a chain-link fence with a chain-link gate. When dd is on her swingset at the back edge, anyone walking by can see her. She can just open the gate an go out from behind the house, to the side yard or to the front.

We have a large side yard that is outside of the chainlink fence, and there is no way in hell I'd ever let her on the side without supervision. It's right on the dangerous corner that teens like to go around as fast as possible, there are no barriers at the road, and no windows on that side of the house.

*The chance of a minor being kidnapped by a stranger is 1 in 560, by a family member 1 in 180.
- Discover Magazine as reported by Gannett News Service 5/28/96.

According to the FAA, the chance of someone being injured during flight is 1 in 8 MILLION.

What in the world could I possibly have in my life that is more important than ensuring she's not one of those statistics? I buckle her into her carseat every time we get in the car, but statistically she'd probably survive a crash anyway. I buckle her into the airplane seat, but statistically we probably won't be in a crash. By the laws of probability, they are more likely to be abducted than hurt in an airplane, yet how many people here make sure their kids are restrained on a plane? I know I do... probably all of us do. But statistically, they are safer unrestrained in an airplane than they are unsupervised outside. For me, yes, it's more inconvenient to put my things aside to be out there with dd. It's less inconvenient to buckle her into her carseat. It's even less convenient to have breastfed her for nearly 4 years. But they are all part of the package that is to keep her as healthy, happy, and safe that I can.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm getting the sense that how people feel about their neighborhood is the key factor.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

1 in 4 girls might be molested but that is by the age of 18.

You need to break the numbers down further.

http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

30-40% of victims are abused by a family member.
Another 50% are abused by someone outside of the family whom they know and trust.
Approximately 40% are abused by older or larger children whom they know.
*Therefore, only 10% are abused by strangers*.
That 10% isn't much compared to the family and friends that we let our children alone without a thought.

Also 1-4 girls will be but that still means 3 (or 75%) of girls won't be. My first protection of my children is being very careful of who my children go with. Being involved in activities that make them more likely to be abuse. Being the involved parent makes them less of a target. It gets harder to break down the statistics further but from what I read that 10% of the girls molessed by strangers are more likely to be older closer to teenage than the little 6 year old.

Know saying that I have lived places were I wouldn't have let my children play unwatched for other reasons than sexual molestation or the feared kidnapping. Gun shooting, glass in the yard, physically safe area to play, et was or would have been my concern.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
For me, one of the overprotective mothers that won't let her 5 year old outside to play by herself... yes, you can see the back edge of the back yard from the road and it is enclosed only by a chain-link fence with a chain-link gate. When dd is on her swingset at the back edge, anyone walking by can see her. She can just open the gate an go out from behind the house, to the side yard or to the front..

I think the fundamental thing is actually the setup. Our backyard is enclosed by walls except for a high high fence that separates our garden from that of the neighbours. As I said, you need to get into the house to get into the garden. I am not sure I would feel as safe in the situation described by velochic. My kids pretty much cannot go anywhere, noone can see them (except the neighbours, if they peek through the fence) and noone can come in unless they ring on the bellring on the front door, so I think everyone's situation's unique. But I do think that playing unsupervised has a value, maybe it is not practical or safe in the situation you're in right now, but some of the moms who posted seemed to imply that it had no value per se.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Gaialice, you're probably right.

For us, though, supervised does not mean "directed". I just sit out back with a book or crossword puzzle and barely even look up from it. If dd wants to go to the side yard, I just grab my book and move to the swing on that side. We can be outside for 2 hours and dd will have said only a couple of words to me or asked me for something (like a drink of water). I'm really there like a lifeguard is at the pool. I don't often get involved more than just looking up from my book as I turn pages and showing whomever might be walking by that my daughter is supervised and not an easy target.

Marsupial mom, your statistics support what I have found.

1 in 180 chance of getting abducted by family

1 in 560 chance of getting abducted by stranger.

Yet, as I said in my last post, there is only a 1 in 8 MILLION chance for anyone (adults and children included) to be injured in an airplane... yet we are all nearly pathological about keeping our kids safe in a plane!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i was going to mention Last Child In The Woods, too, but trinity beat me to it. i've only read about 50 pages of it so far, too, but like what i've read.

i am probably older than a lot of y'all (43 this month) and my mom was older when she had me (38) and she grew up on a farm and really i don't think she gave it a second thought about letting me run loose around our suburban middle class neighborhood. i think her experience of growing up on the farm in the 20s-40s probably greatly influenced the freedom she gave me.

we had a big backyard and i _loved_ to climb trees. i'd go way up to the very very very top of a huge maple and a huge white pine that towered over our 1 story 50s ranch house. thinking about that now and imagining my girls doing the same gives me a little bit of the heebie jeebies, but i was a confident climber and i think my mom could see that it was something i did well so she didn't freak about it. i did fall one time, but it wasn't from the top of a tree, but just from trying to jump for a lower branch from a metal lawn chair with a friend. i was maybe 9 or 10. got a mild fracture of my arm, but that didn't even faze me.

she used to let me wander for hours in the woods behind our house. i remember i had a neighbor girl a few months older (with older brothers and a sister, too) who wasn't allowed to go in the woods (although she snuck out with me occasionally). my dh talks about how when he was little he heard about the "dirty hippies" who might be in the woods. his mom was a bit of a worry wart (seriously -- that's a mild example).

for me, i let my kids play outside in our yard all the time and have for years (they're 6 and 3), but my kids aren't like me. they're actually much more cautious and i've never had them try to walk down the street alone or anything. we live in a very safe neighborhood. we do have a fenced backyard, but have a second story deck off the kitchen (it's a sloping backyard and the deck comes off the kitchen, but that side of the house is effectively two stories since the daylight basement is underneath). they never go down the deck stairs and always stay on the deck. it would be fine with me if they did want to at this age although i would have been worried about dd2 negotiating the stairs by herself when she was younger, but at 3.5 it would be fine with me.

i let them play in the front yard (unfenced, but again on a steep sloping lot so we have to go uphill to get to the street) with me in the house all the time. they're super cautious kids, though and rarely roam from right in front of the house. if we lived on acreage in the mountains (we've talked about it) i would be happy to let them roam in field and wood.

we live right near a park and the ballfield backs up to our yard. when dd2 is a little older i think i would let them play there by themselves. i wouldn't let them cross the road to the rest of park or play there by themselves because i can't see all the way over there from our deck like i can see the ball field and because a wider variety of people frequent there. there are woods behind the park that are fun to explore, but i have seen some homeless type looking men in the woods on occasion so i would hesitate about that, but if the girls were in a group with a lot of other kids and the moms were all at the park i'd consider it. not saying if i would or wouldn't, but i'd think about it. i wouldn't let them at this age, though.

that's my 2 cents.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Ok so throw the tomatoes...







: But I think it is very sad how many people are so afraid. I mean really alot of you sound so fearful. I think our media has done the job that they set out to do, make us afraid of our own shadows. Thowing out stats and not really putting them in context. We give away our rights, our childrens rights, so easily. And yes I do think living without fear and being able to play in your own yard is a right.
My goodness I was at home babysitting my brother from age 9 on (until he was old enought to do that himself at about age 10).

I truly think it does a major disservice to our children to never let them have their own time, their own space to learn and deal with the world. They never get to have an adventure, see things for themselves, get into minor trouble, learn from mistakes, get hurt (and I am not talking about killed or mamed but minor childhood injuries that gives them great stories to tell), get messy, without mom or dad hovering near by saying "no, watch out, don't, be careful, agh get down, stop that, don't yell, don't touch that..." Kids are not complete idiots, they do learn from their mistakes and most will easily follow rules if they do get some space. (I know someone will tell how their child doesn't but oh well).
Think about your own childhood with out your adventures, without your stories... would it be sad, depressing? The world has changed, but not that much... we have just become more afraid.

H


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
Ok so throw the tomatoes...







: But I think it is very sad how many people are so afraid. I mean really alot of you sound so fearful. I think our media has done the job that they set out to do, make us afraid of our own shadows. Thowing out stats and not really putting them in context. We give away our rights, our childrens rights, so easily. And yes I do think living without fear and being able to play in your own yard is a right.
My goodness I was at home babysitting my brother from age 9 on (until he was old enought to do that himself at about age 10).

I truly think it does a major disservice to our children to never let them have their own time, their own space to learn and deal with the world. They never get to have an adventure, see things for themselves, get into minor trouble, learn from mistakes, get hurt (and I am not talking about killed or mamed but minor childhood injuries that gives them great stories to tell), get messy, without mom or dad hovering near by saying "no, watch out, don't, be careful, agh get down, stop that, don't yell, don't touch that..." Kids are not complete idiots, they do learn from their mistakes and most will easily follow rules if they do get some space. (I know someone will tell how their child doesn't but oh well).
Think about your own childhood with out your adventures, without your stories... would it be sad, depressing? The world has changed, but not that much... we have just become more afraid.

H

No tomatos from me. Everyone seems to forget that violent crime is at it's lowest since 1974. And back 20+ years ago, there was only 3 news stations, only broadcasting 1/2 hour of news three times a day. Now that we have 24/7 news, media sensationalism, etc. etc... happy doesn't sell, so every single horror story is broadcast, making you believe every other home on your street houses a rapist or murderer. It's simply not true. We live in such a safe society, I'm thrilled that my kids have the opportunity to play safely in our yard, my older ones can ride their bikes alone safely thru the entire neighborhood, etc... What a wonderful world we have right now!!!


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## JandJmom (Apr 30, 2007)

Freerange Mama, I'm sorry I don't agree...(but to each her own opinion!) climbing too high in a tree...my son fell off a jungle gym because he climbed too high- broke both bones in his arm...I would NEVER let my kids play outside alone and they are now 7 and 4.....we lived in an almost zero-crime area with a fenced yard and TWO German Shepherds! Call me paranoid but I'm sorry, unsupervised kids are the ones who get hurt, get snatched, or a million other scary scenerios. How can you trust a curious and resourceful kid to NEVER go out of the gate, when they 'are in their own imaginary world' half the time? I don't trust them like that- it's not possible. They know the rules, but do they follow them ALL the time? of course not. I may be crazy but the sickos in the world are reason enough for me to keep BOTH eyes open, all the time. Anything can happen, and while we can't live in fear, we certainly should live on the side of caution..just my opinion


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

Mine play in our backyard. I leave the windows on the back side of the house open, and keep an eye on them thru the windows while I get the schoolwork ready, or cook or do laundry. I can see and hear most of the yard. If somebody approached from the front, I would see them long before they got to the back gate.

We have 1/2 acre in a quiet city neighborhood. We know the neighbors, we have a fence, and the 10 year old and 8 year olds are very responsible.

They play in the front yard only if Dh or I are out there, because we have large yards here, no sidewalks, and lots of thru traffic. But the backyard is their "free zone" where they aren't micromanaged by me.

They don't even know that I'm watching and listening, most of the time. Unsupervised play is so different and exciting for them. I'm so glad they get to use our big backyard this way.

I had a whole town to be free in (1980's) but my boys at least get their 1/2 acre with 26 trees.


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

I also agree with the paranoid over-protectors. I do that in public. When I take my 4 boys anywhere, I don't even blink and I make them stay close.

That's the main reason we worked so hard to move to a good neighborhood. I wanted home to be the place where we all let our hair down and just play.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg Murry.* 
Here's why I disagree with what you said.

1. As others have said, a 3-year-old can hurt him/herself while alone in a yard by eating rocks or poison plants, or by falling.

2. Aside from that problem, she or he can wander out of the yard.

3. Strangers can come into the yard.

4. A child of three is utterly unable to defend her/himself. A preteen or teen is far more able to defend her/himself, and in addition, a preteen or teen has a wealth of knowledge of how the world works -- how to use a phone, how to find a police station, how to call 911, and so on -- far more than a three-year-old. One would hope that they would also have better judgment about the safety of strangers and situations than a three-year-old.

Here's why I disagree with your disagreement.









If you look at statistics about which kids are actually abducted, it seems that the older the child, the more at risk she is. According to this report:

Quote:

However, young children, despite the publicity accorded their abduction,
are not the most frequent victims of nonfamily abduction. Eighty-one percent of nonfamily abducted children and 58 percent of stereotypical kidnapping victims were age 12 or older (table 2). Nonfamily abduction victims overall were particularly concentrated among the oldest groups, with 59 percent being 15-17 years old.
As kids outgrow eating rocks, they just come up with new risky things to try, like dangerous stunts on a skateboard, or hitchhiking, or experimenting with alcohol. There's never an age when it will be absolutely safe for them to be unsupervised, and I don't think it's even realistic to say that it gets safer and safer each year as they get older.

I suppose most parents eventually decide their kids are old enough that the benefits of unsupervised activities outweigh the risks. We just make different judgments about what that "old enough" age is.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

OMGosh... Riding skateboards... are you serious?! I guess I will not get this. Kids need to climb trees, ride bikes and skateboards, explore open spaces, dig in the dirt... heck EAT DIRT!, get completely nasty.
Do some kids drink and do drugs... yes they do. And lot of those kids have parents who are not present and I don't mean hovering, I mean emotionally not there. And again I know someone will come up with a stat that says otherwsie and I can go find one that says I am right... but if you talk to your kids, and there for them with out being always in their space you find they actually make pretty wise choices even at young ages. Do they get stuck in trees? Yes. Do they fall and get hurt? Yes. But they also learn from that... even my 2 1/2 year old has learned how high he can climb after getting stuck in a tree. He only goes so high. I have seen my 9 year old son 60 feet in the air in a tree, did it scare me? Hell Yes! But I kept my mouth shut and man oh man, was he proud, his eyes were shining it was beautiful. I could have been there saying no, get down or never once let him do that for fear,... which would have been MY fear, not his. I could have planted the seed of fear and then he would have never tried it, never would have felt that pride that joy.
We have the power to empower our kids instead of instilling fear. Our fears. My dd is horribly afraid of heights... not because she had a bad experience, but because I instilled that in her, and now there are things she won't even try because I gave her that fear. I feel really bad about that. We don't have to do that. We have the power to give our children space and not be afraid of everything under the sun.

H


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I hope the OP is seeing by the responses that there are a lot of different reasons why someone might not let their child be alone outside even in a fenced yard.

I'm not really afraid of my dd being kidnapped or molested. It didn't even make my list of reasons in my first post to this thread. Dh and I agree that dd is not ready to be outside alone (no adult, no other kids, no protective dog) based on her as an individual and the environment.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
OMGosh... Riding skateboards... are you serious?! I guess I will not get this. Kids need to climb trees, ride bikes and skateboards, explore open spaces, dig in the dirt... heck EAT DIRT!, get completely nasty.

We have the power to empower our kids instead of instilling fear. Our fears. ........ We have the power to give our children space and not be afraid of everything under the sun.

LMAO on the skateboards...

My boys think bruises are cool. Broken bones are a rite of passage. I do not bubble wrap my kids. The way society is going, a scar will be a novelty that will only be seen on the internet, because no one has been allowed to play on a playground that's actually on cement, or fall off a bike without wearing elbow guards, etc. etc... and trust me, these are not my boys!!! Gasp - we even have a trampoline WITHOUT a net!!!!! The horror!

LOL...


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

I think a lot of the disagreements in this thread would disappear if we had a common definition of what we are talking about. "Unsuperivsed" does not necessarily mean ignored - for some poeple it means that you aren't right there within arm's reach, but you are listening and checking out the window frequently - and that how much supervision is going on is different for a 3 year old than a 9 year old.

When my forst two children were under 3, we lived in a house that had a fenced in back yard that they coudn't open the gate and the whole back wall of this house was window - so I was either at the sink looking out, or sitting where I could see/hear out of the window at all times. As far as my kids were concerend, I was there if they needed me but I wasn't "with" them the same way I would be on a walk or at the park.. So yeah, I let them play outside alone, but I was watching them the whole time. We have moved a couple of times since then and the set up of our yard has always determined what I was comfortable with or not. Now they are older and have more freedom to do their own thing, but there are still parameters.

What can possibly go wrong with being overprotective? Well, not much if you are talking about a 2 year old playing ouside alone, but someday, they will be grown and need to have their own skills and instincts developed. I have a couple of friends who are university professors who are stunned at how many overprotected kids are turning up at schools these days - 19 year olds whose parents phone and request the prof to reschedule night classes so that their daughters won't ever have to go out after dark, parents who are still helping their kids with homework when they are 20 years old becasue they don't want their kids to get too stressed. I know that thiose examples don't fit pefectly here, but they go hand in hand with the mentality that it is a good thing to be overprotective. Along the way we need to give our children the skills and opportunities to use them so that they will be confident and capable adults when they are grown - but every family's situation will be different and so when and how they learn those skills will vary from family to family. What is appropriate in my situation would be overprotective in another situation and neglectful in yet another situation. There is no one right answer.

Same thing for leaving our childern with other adults. Would I ever leave my children with unknown babysitters in a place I didn't know? Never. But if I attend the same church for years and know the nursery attendants and my child feels happy and safe there, would I be foolish to leave my 3 year old happily playing with one of the church grannies I have known for a long time? Of course not. And more and more churches ARE running background checks on all of their nursery attendants and Sunday School teachers - and making sure that there are windows in doors to nurseries and classrooms so that it is possible to see what is happening in the rooms at all times. Churches can be hiding places for molesters, but many church communities are adopting policies that make churches safe for the children who go there, NOT safe for the predators to hind behind their church going mask.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
OMGosh... Riding skateboards... are you serious?! I guess I will not get this. Kids need to climb trees, ride bikes and skateboards, explore open spaces, dig in the dirt... heck EAT DIRT!, get completely nasty.

I agree. My point about it being just as dangerous for kids to be unsupervised as they get older is NOT that parents should keep watching their kids their whole lives. It's that if we're ever going to let them be unsupervised (and hopefully all of us are), we might as well start young, because it's not any more dangerous then than it will be later. (As long as they're past the stage where they eat random stuff and run into the street without thinking.)


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JandJmom* 
unsupervised kids are the ones who get hurt, get snatched, or a million other scary scenerios.

Just last week 2 Toddlers (Ages 3 and 4) were found dead in the family pool because they were unsupervised.

The Adults were in the living room watching TV.

I also disagree that the Media is instilling fear. They are just reporting a story. I look at the 6 o'clock news every day and sure there are always some story about a person shot dead or what have you...but I personally like to be *aware* of what's going on around me.

Just because my DH and I choose to not to let DS play alone does NOT mean we live our lives in fear. I just really don't see how someone can draw that conclusion.

And those "stastics"....well, if I go on the word of "stastics" and let my guard down and something happens to my child because I was in the kitchen doing my thing then who's to blame??

I am.

I can't tell the police, "But Officer, statistics said...."

To each his own...I feel GOOD about not allowing DS play outside alone. And that's really all that matters.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
When I take my 4 boys anywhere, I don't even blink and I make them stay close.

Me too. Especially in Public. DS will run away from you in a hot second so DH and I have to be like Hawks on him.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
So, I guess what I am saying is that there is nothing important enough to me to *not* be out there with her, so why stay in the house just to "give her independence". Especially among APers... why give the independence at such a young age? I'm sure by the time dd is old enough to go off to college, I won't be going outside with her.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
For us, though, supervised does not mean "directed". I just sit out back with a book or crossword puzzle and barely even look up from it. If dd wants to go to the side yard, I just grab my book and move to the swing on that side. We can be outside for 2 hours and dd will have said only a couple of words to me or asked me for something (like a drink of water). I'm really there like a lifeguard is at the pool. I don't often get involved more than just looking up from my book as I turn pages and showing whomever might be walking by that my daughter is supervised and not an easy target.









: to *all* of the above, velochic. I'm also not comfortable with DS playing outside alone yet; he's not able to accurately relay events to me still....either by timeline or whether or not something actually happened. For me, that's a BIG deal. I want him to be able to accurately tell me about anything that happened, whether it's him hurting himself, there being a dispute with a playmate, or a stranger approaching him. Even at 3, he's still pretty freeking defenseless. I don't hover, half the time I'm on the deck on the phone with someone or reading, but I'm "there".

And I find these interesting, as it speaks to the differences between children:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000*
I do personally believe that I would be doing my dd a disservice if I didn't allow her some without me play outside. She is a different child without me. When I'm outside she is showing off her skills on the play ground. Without me I watch her walking along small paths, making up stories, picking flowers.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
I have the same experience. When I am in the backyard, the children want to play with me. When they're on their own, they play with one another. Also, when I go down, they want to play ball in a rather organized way (their rules but rules nonetheless). On their own, I see a lot of purely purposeless play - touching dirt, smelling flowers, picking grass. Oh, for those moments, for those precious moments, they really are little kids.

Apparently my son is used to my benign neglect







, because when I'm "there" hanging out on the porch, he wanders around getting into things, exploring, discovering...not needing me to play with him, and not showing off for me either.

I think a lot of this has to do with the individual kid and your yard setup. We have chain link on 3 sides of our small yard, with houses on the sides and in back. I cannot see the yard from the house, there is only the back door to the raised deck, and one regular sized window in the dining room. The driveway is open to the back yard with no enclosure. We live on a fairly busy street just on the outside of a medium-sized city, and our particular street is a connecting street to many neighborhoods in the area. The neighborhood itself is OK - not great, but OK. I have a setup of snow drift screening I pull across the driveway when he's outside and I'm on the deck, because he's FAST and I still (yes, at 3 yrs old STILL







) can't trust him 100% to not bolt down the driveway if he sees a cat or something else interesting on the fairly busy street in front of the house. We plan on getting a privacy fence around 3 sides and a gate across the driveway, and then we will feel safer letting the kids out to play on their own. We hope to do that next year.

So yeah - based on his individual temperament, our current yard setup, and our neighborhood, I'm not planning on letting him be outside alone for a long while. Once I can ask him to tell me about an event and he can actually describe it, then I'll think about it - but not until then. I'll just continue to hang back and observe, and let him do his thing - which he does.

I'm not afraid, in the sense that I'm instilling fear in him about being alone or being kidnapped or anything; I'm just using common sense in our individual living situation. I believe that the world is a wonderful place full of friendly, caring, giving people, and we are friendly with people we encounter together - I model responsible and thoughtful interactions with the strangers we encounter every day when we're out and about. BUT I also know that not all people have my child's best interests at heart, and that accidents of all sorts happen - and I feel like until he is able to be more proactive about his own personal safety, it's my job to be in sight to provide it for him - note I said in sight, not on top of him.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

nope I don't allow them to play in the backyard alone (they are 20mo and 3yo) the one time I let DS do this, he got out of the backyard!














: We also get rattlesnakes and arficanized bee swarms, so no, it's not allowed at my house. it's definitly a safety issue for me. I don't want them out of my sight alone anyway, period. they are way too young. you just never know in this day and age.







I don't care if it's the media or not, it's my child's lives and I am the one responsible for them. plain and simple.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Do you all remember the Adam Walsh story?

This is just one classic example.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Our yard is not fenced at all. Our property abuts a state park with frequent sightings of coyotes and rare but not unheard of sightings of bears. We also have a ramshackle 250+ year old barn with lots of loose boards, the occasional feral cat(s), raccoon and lots of bird nests. With have a back yard play set with slides, swings, fort, etc. My son as been "allowed" to play outside unsupervised since about 3, his is now 5 1/2.

The key to my comfort level is a) my sons temperament and b) spending the first 3 years of his life modelling safe behavior and talking about safety and limits. I trust him to be out there alone. I actually have *more* safety fears with him being 5 1/2 than I did at 3 because now he is popping wheelies on his bike, climbing trees, jumping off the swing-a complete daredevil!









Honestly abduction and molestation never occurred to me (and yes I have read "Protecting the Gift"). First of all it is not like he is out there for hours alone. Second if a stranger really wanted to abduct him they would have to go to a lot of work since you can't see the back of our house from the road and you can't see the backyard form the state park. If someone familiar with my family and routines wanted to abduct him I don't think me being outside while he was playing would stop them-they would just look for another opportunity. The same holds true with molestation.

I guess from a risk/benefit persective I see more benefit in allowing my son the freedom to play outside than the risk of "statistically" rare chance of abduction/molestation during the time he is alone outside.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Do you all remember the Adam Walsh story?

This is just one classic example.

He was abducted from an arcade in a mall, not from his backyard. I allow my son to play alone in our backyard but I would not leave him alone in a mall. I think you are talking apples and oranges depending on the home/yard.


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## jmom713 (Oct 25, 2005)

I let some of my children play in the back yard while I am in the kitchen/great room area of the house. It cement block fenced in and has a padlocked gate. No pool. There are large windows and a glass sliding door at the end of the room so i can pretty much see them all of the time. The door is left open so I can also hear them. I do however, go outside with them when my 13 month old decides to join in the fun because of his age. I will leave my 9 year old in charge for 2-3 minutes while I run to use the restroom. If any of their friends come over, I stay outside as well.

Jen


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I also disagree that the Media is instilling fear. They are just reporting a story.

Honestly, can't you see that the media is all about perpetuating fear? Crime isn't up; kidnapping isn't up; but boy the reporting of it is up. Especially in our era of 24 hour news; the media gets a "sensational" fear story and shakes it and shakes it in its mouth until the next one pops up and then they're off and running again...thus ensuring you will continue to watch the news...

Seriously....half of this thread stems from the culture of fear the media is perpetuating...


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

It depends on the neighborhood for sure, and the child, to some extent (though I do think we underestimate our children's capability). I agree with the PPs that mentioned how kids are so supervised and over-managed.

If it weren't for the crappy schools, we'd live in a rural area. I feel bad for my kids not getting the chance to spend all day wandering the woods.

I remember playing on my own outside as young as 4 in the yard, and just a few years later out in the woods. We had 20 acres, and I think I explored them all







I learned so much and had such a great time. Yes, there was wildlife. Rampaging deer and all. JK, I rarely saw a deer that didn't run madly away when it saw me. There were black bears, big cats, coyotes, etc. I never saw any of those closer than the other side of the ravine.

I knew basic safety rules, and to check in during the day, and to come right away if mom yelled for me. Don't wear dark colors during hunting season (we had NO HUNT and NO TRESSPASS signs along the property line, too), only eat berries you know are safe, watch for bees nests before going into thick brush, make sure branches will hold your weight before you climb . . .

Sometimes I got hurt, sometimes I ruined my clothes, often I came back with enough debris in my hair to build two or three birds' nests. So?

Since he reached preschool age, the only time DS1 hasn't been allowed to play alone outside has been when we lived somewhere that traffic was a concern. If there's a backdoor or a window that I can hear him from if he yells for help, he can be outside.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkpmomtoboys* 
Crime isn't up; kidnapping isn't up;

You really don't think so? I believe it's worse. And it has nothing to do with the Media.

You would not have heard of Gunmans open firing in public places (much less Schools and Malls) 40 years ago.

Columbine Killings
VA Tech Killings
The School in the Amish Communities where the Kids were shot *execution style*


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
He was abducted from an arcade in a mall, not from his backyard. I allow my son to play alone in our backyard but I would not leave him alone in a mall. I think you are talking apples and oranges depending on the home/yard.


Well my point was not to have a false sense of security.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Really?

http://elowel.org/peeps/max/pdf/soc/duwe.pdf

I'm really sad about the new expectation that children be CONSTANTLY supervised until they're practically driving age. And then you need the cell-umbilical, of course. Solitude and the freedom to play outdoors allowed me to become an individual, gave me a chance to have an inner life. I don't want to strangle out all the wildflowers of my child's heart, but if I don't, I'll be accused of negligence. I really resent the way our culture coerces us into crushing and overcontrolling our children. How to find a balance without getting turned in to the authorities???


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

Quote:

Those things simply didn't happen 20-30 years ago.
Um, Brenda Ann Spencer? Charles Whitman? The McDonald's shootings in the mid-'80s?

I mean, for Pete's sake -- Adam Walsh, your own example of the prevalent lurking danger, WAS 20-30 years ago! And yet you still remember his name and some of the details; that should give you some idea of just how reassuringly rare these events actually are. If it happened all the time, none of us would remember Adam, or Polly Klaas or Meghan. These horrible stranger abductions and murders are memorable and so heavily publicized precisely because they hardly ever happen.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
The ugly statistics are that 1 in 3 girls is molested.

And the ugly fact is that most of the men doing that are fathers, stepfathers, mom's boyfriend, older brothers, uncles, family friends, teachers, and other trusted adults in the immediate circle.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I'm really sad about the new expectation that children be CONSTANTLY supervised until they're practically driving age.

I'm curious, what age do you allow your kids to play outside alone?


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
You really don't think so? I believe it's worse. And it has nothing to do with the Media.

You would not have heard of Gunmans open firing in public places (much less Schools and Malls) 40 years ago.

Columbine Killings
VA Tech Killings
The School in the Amish Communities where the Kids were shot *execution style*

But that has nothing to do with letting kids playing in the backyard....

I was referring specifically to things that people here seem worried about that can happen when they let their kids play in the backyard...

This is exactly what I'm talking about with the perpetuation of fear...


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I'm curious, what age do you allow your kids to play outside alone?

Unfortunately we live in an apartment with no yard right now so it's kind of a moot point. The road outside is very busy, so I think I'd want to accompany the kid across the roads to the park until she's about 8 or so. Hard to say for sure since she's not that old yet. But that's mostly a traffic safety issue and I'd be happy to sit and read in a far corner while a grade school age kid bounced around the park, so long as she knew the rules reliably.

Assuming we had a yard of our own that was fenced, I'd probably let a 4 year old run around there while I was relatively near the door, and a 6 year old play in the yard while I was otherwise occupied in the house.

At any rate, I'd be more concerned about the following than stranger abductions:

*drowning, if there was a creek or pool nearby
*falls
*poisonous plants
*harrassing squirrels and other animals

But I think a 4-6 year old would be old enough to understand rules protecting them from those things. I'm not talking about wandering off to the store while they play, after all.


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

My kids play outside unsupervised all the time! I think it is good for them. I do have neighbor who thinks they will be kidnapped at any minute. I try telling her that most kidnappings are from disgruntled family members- of which I have none.

The yard is not fenced, but we live on a quiet street and the fear of cars is instilled at a young age. (And the fear of a kid on the street is instilled in the drivers since there are so many kids who play in the street) My 6 year old is allowed to ride his bike in the street unsupervised, but he must stay within a certain area. My 4 year old still needs supervision because she panics if a car comes and will leave her bike in the street while she runs to the side. She still needs reminders to "pull to the side with your bike and stay still until the car passes."

I also think that life is for living and we can't live in fear of "what if?"


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkpmomtoboys* 
But that has nothing to do with letting kids playing in the backyard....

I was referring specifically to things that people here seem worried about that can happen when they let their kids play in the backyard...

This is exactly what I'm talking about with the perpetuation of fear...


No it doesn't. We were disagreeing on whether or not the Crime rate is up.

And I stand firm on my opinion. The crime rate IS up. But that doesn't mean, I live my life in a state of "fear". I don't live life looking over my shoulder for lurking danger to happen.

I live life with the Good and the Bad.

DS is simply too young to be oustide playing without Adult supervision. Period.

I'm really sorry the Parents who do allow their kids to play alone outside have a hard time understanding this. Especially on an AP board.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I don't think that "attachment parenting" has to mean "worried about kidnappings" or "won't let a child past the age of infancy out of my sight" parenting. In fact, I thought the whole point of developing secure attachment was to allow the child the security and confidence to become more independent and outgoing.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

The crime rate is not hard to determine nor is it a matter of opinion -- and both violent crimes in general and rape in particular have fallen since peaking in the late '80s and early '90s, even as the population has increased. I actually didn't realize how dramatic the decrease has been until I went and looked just now -- wow, it's a lot safer than it was when I was in high school!

Crime Index

Quote:

I'm curious, what age do you allow your kids to play outside alone?
I think we've been letting DD play in the fenced backyard since she was four; she's five, almost six, and I'm starting to let her play in the unfenced front yard. Any earlier, I worried about her running into the street without looking to pet a cat or something.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Well we are all probably going to have to agree to disagree.

For me, I don't think it is "hovering" or not allowing dd to become independent by being out there with her. In all honestly, until reading a couple of things recently, it never even occurred to me that perhaps I *should* let her be outside alone.

Here's an example of our time outside yesterday. We went out after school and I sat on the deck doing my crossword puzzle. Dd played around the back yard without even talking to me, digging in the dirt, "planting" some things with her garden tools and playing on her swingset. She climbed to the top of the swingset and hanging down by her hands (this is about 12 feet off of the ground) went across the swingset hand over hand from one end to the other. Then she climbed over the fence to the side yard and I picked myself up and went to the swing over there (I haven't said a word to her yet). She plays with the neighbor cats for a while (even though I'm allergic to them), then when one runs up a tree, decides to climb the tree with it. She gets too high and yells, "Mommy, I'm up too high and can't get down". So I go up to get her out of the tree. She plays a little longer and then I tell her, "time to go in, I need to get dinner started".

This past fall she spent 6 weeks in a cast with a broken foot because I was letting her do some fairly risky jumping "like a cat". I still let her jump "like a cat".

What part of that is overprotective? We were 10 feet from the road and I would have been there if she had followed a cat across the street. She was also 10 feet from where there is a lot of foot traffic/ car traffic and anyone could have run over, picked her up and had her in the car before I could have even been out the door (if I had been inside). In the back yard, there is easy access from the road (and an easy view), and even though it's in full view from the window in front of my computer in the kitchen, I know that being human, something might distract me just enough to lose sight/thought of her for enough time for something to happen. If I'm outside, my attention is more attuned to her.

That is attention, not "hovering over her directing every single thing she does outside".

And you know what... we have a 3 story house and I don't let her play on the top floor when I'm on the bottom floor, either. Goodness gracious... this kid must already be a nervous wreck with all sorts of phobias!!! She still co-sleeps too!!









Oh, yeah... I forgot... she's turning out to be a well-adjusted, independent, logical thinker that has a sense of adventure and also goes off to school everyday at 7:30am and comes home at 4:00. Gee, that doesn't sound like a kid who has, as a pp said, "issues" with independence. Only in the US. Geez.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I don't think that "attachment parenting" has to mean "worried about kidnappings" or "won't let a child past the age of infancy out of my sight" parenting. In fact, I thought the whole point of developing secure attachment was to allow the child the security and confidence to become more independent and outgoing.

Yes but when the Parent feels it's right time. Not because everybody else is doing it.

If a Parent chooses not to let their *3 year old* play outside alone are they really being Overprotective and "living in a state of fear" and "afraid of Kidnappings" and "being abducted"?

Why can't it be when the Parent feels it's the right time? Why do the Kids have to be so young to put the pressure on to let go?

Really.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia the Muse* 
The crime rate is not hard to determine nor is it a matter of opinion -- and both violent crimes in general and rape in particular have fallen since peaking in the late '80s and early '90s, even as the population has increased. I actually didn't realize how dramatic the decrease has been until I went and looked just now -- wow, it's a lot safer than it was when I was in high school!

Crime Index

I think we've been letting DD play in the fenced backyard since she was four; she's five, almost six, and I'm starting to let her play in the unfenced front yard. Any earlier, I worried about her running into the street without looking to pet a cat or something.

Okay, Thalia, we will agree to disagree on the Crime rate. So backing out of THAT discussion.

Well, this was a comfortable age for YOU. That wouldn't be comfortable for Me.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

You feel that they are not correctly gathering and reporting the number of crimes? Or something else? I guess I don't see what there is to disagree about as far as the crime rate.

What age you feel comfortable with having your kid play outside, sure, that's up to the individual. I could never tell you when to feel comfortable, or whether you do feel comfortable, or what have you.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
At any rate, I'd be more concerned about the following than stranger abductions:

*drowning, if there was a creek or pool nearby
*falls
*poisonous plants
*harrassing squirrels and other animals

Squirrels?! Seriously? This is an example of another (IMO) unrealistic fear a lot of parents seem to have. You don't have to be afraid of squirrels, or possums, or raccoons, or foxes, or anything else you're likely to see around your house. Even a bear isn't likely enough to hurt someone that you should waste any energy worrying about it.

And don't anyone bother telling me about the raccoons in your neighborhood that weigh 60 pounds and have no fear, or the possum that almost attacked your kid, or the stories you've heard about how squirrels go for the throat when they're cornered. I used to be a wildlife biologist in a highly populated suburban area, and I've heard it all already. I've learned that most people are not very good at estimating how big an animal is, or interpreting its behavior, and most of their information about wildlife comes from highly unreliable sources.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I'm not afraid of squirrels. I was naming things that are more realistic things to take into consideration than abductions and other freak situations. Note I did not say "squirrel attack" was my concern. My concern is that kids should be old enough to understand that we leave strange animals alone before they play outside unattended. One does not have to be very old to understand this. It's more for the squirrel's protection than anything.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

well, how about do you let your child play in her bedroom by herself? isn't that where Polly Klaas was abducted from after all







?

i think it's fine to be outside with your kids and wonderful and great and heartwarming (really) . it's a beautiful thing to see a parent playing with a kid outside







: . my kids are really very attached to me and pretty much love to be close by (hence my lack of worry about them running off when they're "outside by themselves).

i don't think any one of us can mandate a specific age that would be okay for EVERY KID IN AMERICA (and Canada and the rest of the world) to play outside alone. there's no one size fits all solution and really, i don't think any of us on this thread are trying to advocate for that. i do think that kids need some alone time and alone time outside is especially beneficial in developing a relationship with nature. some more introverted kids are going to need more alone time and more extroverted kids will probably welcome lots of company outside from mom or dad or sibs or friends.

my concern really is with what Richard Louv terms "Nature Deficit Disorder". i really want my kids to play outside every day that the weather permits. they play inside more than i like, but our yard is just not a great kid yard (see my earlier post about our steeply sloping lot).

check out the amazon excerpt of Last Child In The Woods:

Quote:

"I like to play indoors better 'cause that's where all the electric outlets are," reports a fourth-grader. Never before in history have children been so plugged-in -- and so out of touch with the natural world.
[snip]
Today average eight-year olds are better able to identify cartoon characters than native species, such as beetles and oak trees, in their own community.
(there's more if you follow the link.)

he goes on to make the case not only for outdoor play, but outdoor play unfettered by adults. i'm sure he doesn't advocate a 10 month old toddle over to the park by herself, but he's got some interesting points. worth checking into if you're interested in this topic.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I'm not afraid of squirrels. I was naming things that are more realistic things to take into consideration than abductions and other freak situations. Note I did not say "squirrel attack" was my concern. My concern is that kids should be old enough to understand that we leave strange animals alone before they play outside unattended. One does not have to be very old to understand this. It's more for the squirrel's protection than anything.

Okay, got it. I wasn't actually sure whether you meant you were worried about the kids harrassing the squirrels or vice versa, but I figured since we were talking about dangers, you probably were worried about squirrel attacks. I've talked to plenty of people who actually were afraid of squirrels (or muskrats, or crows, or chipmunks), so I know they're out there. And I've seen some other mentions on this thread of unrealistic fears about wild animals.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I don't understand the "outside alone" argument. What difference does it make if the parent is outside of the house or inside of the house if the child is allowed to do whatever s/he wants outside without interruption? I sit outside with dd (note... I rarely play with her unless I'm specifically invited to play) only to be able to intervene easier if I *need* to and to send an unspoken signal to the world that my daughter is not an easy target when she is outside and vunerable. I have only had to intervene twice that I can think of in the last year when it comes to safety. Once she was following the cat across the dangerous road. Once she was trying to climb onto the barn roof (yeah, I think that's too dangerous). Otherwise, like I've said, she's adventurous and has had her broken bones because of it. I don't stifle her sense of adventure by being in close proximity to her. That's just ridiculous.

And she gets to go outside for several hours every day weather permits. So do I. So does dh when sits out there with her. So does my mother. I don't see how this can be unhealthy in any way, shape or form.


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

Thee have been numerous studies done that show that while the actual crime rate is decreasing, the public's PERCEPTION of crime is increasing, in both the USA and Canada. How the media does or doesn't play into that is a matter of opinion, but the actual statistics are not.

I am "around" when my children play outside but not necessarily involved in their play. My childern are older than most of the ones mentionned on this thread. I find they let me know when they feel ready fro more independence and we talk about what that means and when we agree they are ready, tehy try it. Does my heart rac a little the first time they try something new? Yep - but I always have a safety plan in place and I have never needed it. Their self confidence and skills imcrease by venturing out into teh world bit by bit as tehya re ready.

The only time any of my chidlren was actually at any risk was the time I left a dd home with my FIL - who forgot about her and drove off leaving her at home alone. She knew just what to do though - she was scared but smart and brave. She locked the doors and picked up the phone and called me. Honestly? By the end of that day my FIL had more reason to fear for his safety than my sweet dd!!!!


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## doulatara (Jun 20, 2006)

I don't let my 7 yr. old daughter play outside unsupervised. If I saw a child at her age in this neighborhood doing so I would think there was something terribly wrong. I live in a big city, and although my neighborhood now is a lot better than where we lived a year ago, my city goes from nice/safe area to unsafe/bad area almost block to block. There are a lot of homeless people, drug dealers and gangs around. There are also alleyways that people can access my backyard from very quickly, faster than I might respond if I heard my daughter calling for me. I don't think I am overly paranoid, I just think because we live in a city, our lives have to be different than the way I grew up.

I grew up in a suburb of the same city, with no alleys and a whole different feel. If I were raising my daughter there, I would 100% let her play in the backyard without even thinking twice. By her age my sisters and I just had to make sure we stayed on our block, and would climb trees and bike and play with neighbors constantly. The difference then is we knew all our neighbors, and they were also looking out for us. On the block we live on now I only know the neighbors in my apt. building and a few nextdoor.

I think this decision is completely circumstancial and unless you have been to everyone's backyard on this thread, it is ridiculous to be judgemental about what a parent feels is safe for their child.

Just because I feel that my daughter and I aren't ready for her to play outside alone, it doesn't mean she doesn't have enough time outside. We play in the backyard together, take long walks and bike rides, go to the lakefront and park almost daily, (depending on weather.) She is also able to play unsupervised in the backyard of one of her friend's houses (fenced in without easy alley access) and several cousins houses (rural areas with out easy backyard access.)


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

One thing I have learned in raising children...is that they often do things you think they would NEVER do. A young child you think would NEVER wander off, or go in the street...might do so....even if they know they aren't supposed to.

Prior to the age of 5 or 6..I don't htink most children can be trusted to keep themselves safe around a MAJOR danger (like a busy street). This spring, is the first time I started letting my 5-year old out by herself..and I still check on her VERY freuqnetly. If I see her at the top of the driveway or in the garage..I remind her that she has to stay on the grass...not in the driveway or the garage.

Our house is on a hill, and we have a short, steep driveway, at the bottom of which is a *very* busy road, that people fly down.

Most of the the time I am out there, since whenever my 5-year old is outside, the 2-year old wants to be as well (unless she is napping) and I don't feel comfortable leaving her out there, so generally I am outside iwth them. I am not usually playing with them....I do yard work or read a book. I actually just bought a anti-glare hood for the laptop..and am SO EXCITED to be able to take my laptop outside.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I don't understand the "outside alone" argument. What difference does it make if the parent is outside of the house or inside of the house if the child is allowed to do whatever s/he wants outside without interruption?

What if your DD wants to be outside at a time when you have something you need to do inside? Does she ask why she can't go outside alone? What do you tell her? I'd be concerned about giving a child the message that being abducted/molested (or attacked by wild animals, or whatever you thought might happen) was so likely that it wasn't safe for her to be alone in her own back yard. Some people posting to this thread clearly live in places where it's NOT safe, and I think it's reasonable for their kids to understand that there's some danger. But I get the impression that a certain number of other kids are being taught to see their world as more dangerous than it really is, which seems like a shame. (I don't have any opinion about which category your kid might be in.)


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

My kids are 11.5, 10, 9, and 5.5 yrs old. The older three just started playing outside together last year. They are allowed to walk on our side of the sidewalk with the dogs. They are allowed to ride their bikes in the front (we live on a street that dead-ends into apartments). They are not allowed to be out on their own for the most part. They usually go as a duo or trio. The littlest one is just now allowed out in the backyard without us out with him, but only with his siblings. I still check through the window or go outside very frequently. He is not allowed to go in the front yard unless an adult is with him. My kids are not allowed to go off to anyone's house without first asking. They aren't allowed to go off with the neighborhood kids. They usually stay out front with the neighbors riding their bikes and such. They are aware of the dangers of talking with people they don't know. It may be a little more real for them though b/c a young girl was abducted from her backyard in our town. She was found after several days and they are all aware of her story (without the details of what specifically happened to her). My oldest has started asking for a bit more freedom while we are out and about, such as walking ahead of us (this was Halloween time) by himself or going to other exhibits in the science center we frequent. We have got another cell phone on our family plan for him to take with him so he can let us know where he is when we are out and he wants to go ahead of us. As they get closer to 12, they will all be given more freedom as they request it.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
What if your DD wants to be outside at a time when you have something you need to do inside? Does she ask why she can't go outside alone? What do you tell her? I'd be concerned about giving a child the message that being abducted/molested (or attacked by wild animals, or whatever you thought might happen) was so likely that it wasn't safe for her to be alone in her own back yard. Some people posting to this thread clearly live in places where it's NOT safe, and I think it's reasonable for their kids to understand that there's some danger. But I get the impression that a certain number of other kids are being taught to see their world as more dangerous than it really is, which seems like a shame. (I don't have any opinion about which category your kid might be in.)

My kids have never inquired about why she can't go outside alone. I am guessing b/c it is just a rule in our house and it isn't up for discussion until they are older. My oldest has starting asking for more freedoms and we are complying in small steps as we all get comfortable with the new freedoms. My kids just know it as a safety rule in our house, same as helmets with bikes, seatbelts in the car, holding hands when crossing streets, etc. My kids aren't being given the impression the world is more dangerous than it is, but they also aren't being sheltered from the fact that bad things can happen and there are bad people in the world.


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

This has been an amazing thread to read.

My dc is too young to be applicable to the discussion, but it's something I have to start thinking about, especially in terms of my family's hopeful relocation. We live in a very busy suburb of a major city, in an apartment close to a main road. There is green space in the apartment complex, but nothing stopping a kid from wandering down the road. If my dc was 3 instead of 9mos, I would be outside with him during playtime. However, the neighbor kids play outside unsupervised on a regular basis, lots of them, looking to be at the youngest maybe 7.

We hope to be at least in a house with a yard when dc is old enough to play outside - honestly I hope we're in a different locale altogether, hopefully somewhere more country. I came up playing outside by myself from the age of about 2 or 3, and sure, some mishaps occurred (bitten by ants/stinging caterpillars; got stuck up a tree), but honestly my most severe injuries happened at school (broken arm from jumping off the swing set, 2nd grade) and at my cousin's house (sexual abuse).

This whole conversation about the fear culture is fascinating.
And it looks like the MSM is doing just what they intended to do.

I also think it's really, really important to give a child their head, to use a riding analogy. Keeping the reins taut isn't comfortable, teaches hesitation, and conveys a sense of fear and mistrust.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JandJmom* 
Freerange Mama, I'm sorry I don't agree...(but to each her own opinion!) climbing too high in a tree...my son fell off a jungle gym because he climbed too high- broke both bones in his arm...I would NEVER let my kids play outside alone and they are now 7 and 4.....we lived in an almost zero-crime area with a fenced yard and TWO German Shepherds! Call me paranoid but I'm sorry, unsupervised kids are the ones who get hurt, get snatched, or a million other scary scenerios. How can you trust a curious and resourceful kid to NEVER go out of the gate, when they 'are in their own imaginary world' half the time? I don't trust them like that- it's not possible. They know the rules, but do they follow them ALL the time? of course not. I may be crazy but the sickos in the world are reason enough for me to keep BOTH eyes open, all the time. Anything can happen, and while we can't live in fear, we certainly should live on the side of caution..just my opinion

Sure, sometimes kids get hurt. I broke my leg when I was less than a foot from my mom. Supervised kids get hurt too. I just think of the rich childhood experiences I had as a child and I want that for my kids too. Thing is they know I trust them and they live up to that expectation. They are 6, 3.5, and 2 and not once has any of them attempted to get out of the gate. They wouldn't, they don't NEED to because I allow them the freedom to meet their NEEDS for exploration and free time. And believe me, my 3 yo is not a rule follower by nature









Caution has its place, I wouldn't let my kids out without supervision if I lived in a dangerous area (and I have lived in plenty) though I don't think I would raise kids in a dangerous area just because of what they would be missing. We built a high fence to separate the front yard from the back just to give some added security from the busy street in front of us.

The posters who mentioned that kids really DO learn from their mistakes is so right. That is the whole point of life, to have experiences and to learn. If we never allow our children to have experiences (and even get hurt once in a while) what are they learning? We live in fear because tv has taught us to live in fear. Now we are fearful of the predators on every corner, but why can't we just teach our kids to be safe and have the confidence in them to learn the lesson?

I feel sad for a lot of the kids I know who don't have the opportunities to get out and play for hours on end with other kids. It is an essential part of childhood. Playing under an adult's watchful eye just isn't the same. And if we don't give them the confidence as they grow what kind of adults will they be?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
What if your DD wants to be outside at a time when you have something you need to do inside? Does she ask why she can't go outside alone? What do you tell her?

That's what I'm saying... there *isn't* anything that is so pressing in my life that I can't stop what I'm doing and go out with her. At a minimum, I can ask her to help me finish up what I'm doing and then we can go, or give her a little task to occupy the 5 minutes it will take for me to finish up. Most of the time, it's something like vacuuming or dusting or folding clothes that I'm more than happy to delay an hour.

No, she's never even asked why she can't go outside by herself. She actually rarely questions any safety precaution we take. Just as Houdini said, she just knows that the rule is get an adult if you want to go outside (my mom lives with us, too), buckle up in the car, no standing the bathtub unless you're getting a shower instead of a bath, no playing with fire, look both ways before crossing the street... it's all just part of her daily routine of safety. She also knows that outside of these rules, the sky's the limit. She can run, jump off of things, play with sticks, climb trees, climb fences, build forts, play with the neighbor animals (although I'm really allergic to them, and have to be careful). She really has free reign to do what she wants.

Also FTR - we live in a wonderful old neighborhood. I know only two of my neighbors really well, a few I've said hello to, and the rest I haven't even uttered a single word to. I don't have "a whole village" looking out for my dd. We are the only sets of eyes that are on dd at all when she's outside.

Yesterday, in one of the subdivisions about a mile from me, a 3 year old little girl was playing outside by herself and was backed over TWICE by her next door neighbor. He was devastated, but it's not going to bring the little girl back. The mother was watching her dd play from her living room window... and she watched her die from that living room window, too.









As for "getting outside and playing with other kids", we have no kids within a few block radius of us. I'm not going to let my 5 year old wander the neighborhood looking for kids to play with. Especially since within a 2 mile radius we have 3 registered child molesters! No thanks, we'll stick to playdates. Times change. My dd is not going to get to experience childhood like I did. It's just a fact of life. I didn't get to experience MY parents' childhood like they did in the 1940's. In their days kids never got abducted. I mean that was something for national news if it occurred. In my childhood, it never happened one single time in my small town of 6000 people. Today, it happens every single week in my city of over 1 million people.

As for going out the gate - this is the main reason that I am out there with dd. She is an *explorer*. She will get intensely involved in something and become unaware of her surroundings. The other day she spotted a blue jay and was off following it. It went to the side yard and she was off after it. By being outside with her, I was able to just grab my puzzle and wander over to the side (where the dangerous road is) and let her continue her exploration uninterrupted. I don't see how there is anything "overprotective" about *that*! If I had her jailed inside a fence, she would have never found that we now have a blue jay nest in one of our trees and she would have never asked me why one blue jay was "prettier" than the other.

I actually think that by being out with your kids they have *more* room to explore because they don't have to check their curiosity. They know, "hey I can go wherever I want to because I'm out here with mom." They don't have to stop and wonder if they are going beyond any boundaries.

So, yeah, most of you think my kid is overprotected, that's fine. Try telling that to my dh who was wondering why I was letting her jump like a cat last year and ended up with a broken foot.


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## bwylde (Feb 19, 2004)

I'd love to let the kids out but our backyard is a parking lot and literally a stone's throw to McDonalds drive thru (when we first moved here, I had to watch DS CONSTANTLY or he would try to sneak over but he was 2 at the time and quickly grew out of that). We live in an apartment building, all of which exit to the "backyard" area. I am starting to let DS play with some of the neighborhood kids by our back steps (it's graveled and we keep a play kitchen and a sand table back there) but I am always in the kitchen with the door open, able to see him. Last year I tried the same and some neighborhood kids kept trying to make him pee in front of them, which lead to a big discussion of never let anyone see your private parts other than certain people. That freaked me out for ages. Some of the other kids did things that really bothered me but they seem to have settled down a lot and are more respectful. Plus DS will now come to me if anything happens or ask if he can go to another neighbor's back step, ect... Further down past the parking lot is a grassy area the kids where the kids sometimes like to play but I always try to be outside when they do.

I always go outside with DD unless she is just sitting on the step blowing bubbles or playing on the step as I have the door open and can watch her.

Other parents in this building make me feel like a bad/weird parent as I don't let them have free reign. One let her 4-5 year old DD run over the whole neighborhood, even go to McDonalds by herself! We live by the busiest intersection in town so I don't think I could do that. It's not that I don't entirely trust the kids but they don't know the dangers that are out there. It's my job to teach them but I have to be there to do that. By this I mean if something goes in the road, looking before getting it or talking to strangers or other such things. I don't live in fear, I just try to be cautious (and pray for the day we can move to the country!!!)

Growing up, I lived in the country and I was given free reign, but a lot of bad stuff happened to me...all the time (won't go in to detail as much was covered here as I'm a statistic). Even if we live in the country, I want to be aware of what my kids are doing and where they are. Mom was the kind to shove us out and lock the door. At 7 I rode to town about 5 K's away on my bike with my cousin and our moms had no idea. I called to get a ride home and she couldn't understand why I wasn't in the backyard.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

To lighten up the discussion a bit, anyone has read Landsdale description of a mad squirrel's attack? I can't remember from which novel (I read practically all of them) but it is just unbelievable. So squirrels do attack humans, under some circumstances, but then, that would not happen in my backyard. No squirrels, unfortunately have ever been sighted around here.

I loved The4OfUs's point about the differences in children: like Velochic's daughter can play for a long time while her mommy reads, while my children are so demanding. It possibly depends on the very little time that I have with them, as a working mom of two whose spouse travels 4 days a week to another town every week with no supporting network around me.

So again, I agree with the PP who said that there cannot be a universal rule about what age is safe to let the children out on their own. It seems from what I read, many of the moms who do not let their children out on their own have good reasons not to do so (busy streets, unsafe gardens with a slope or other dangers, bad neighbourhood), I am also sure that many of them would let their kids play by themselves in my backyard, because it is just so safe. To me, everything depends on the setup. For example, when we are at the seaside there is a courtyard around our apartment building where a lot of children are left to play unsupervised. Well, I never, ever, leave them there alone, or with another mom. I do not think I'd leave them even in a couple of years time. From there, they can go anywhere without me knowing where they go, plus, there are other children, and I do not like letting my kids around other kids (or adults, for that matter) without close supervision. Anything could happen there, and, yes, I'd be really scared.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice* 
So again, I agree with the PP who said that there cannot be a universal rule about what age is safe to let the children out on their own. It seems from what I read, many of the moms who do not let their children out on their own have good reasons not to do so (busy streets, unsafe gardens with a slope or other dangers, bad neighbourhood), I am also sure that many of them would let their kids play by themselves in my backyard, because it is just so safe.

I agree that there is not a universal rule. I find it interesting though that a fence would make someone magically be fine leaving their child(ren) unsupervised. We don't live in a "bad" neighborhood or on a busy street. It wouldn't make one iota of difference in the way we supervise our children if we had a fence in the yard. I don't see a reason let a child play by themself in the yard until they are at a minimum 10 (in our house it seems to be closer to 12), but that's my opinion. To each his own, noone's way is wrong for their house.....just different.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
So, yeah, most of you think my kid is overprotected, that's fine. Try telling that to my dh who was wondering why I was letting her jump like a cat last year and ended up with a broken foot.









velochic, i'm sorry if anything i posted sounded like i was judging your unique situation. your dd is 4? i think that's pretty young and i think it's great you're able to be with her outside like you describe. i'm, frankly, not organized enough to be able to hang out like that, because i'd always be thinking of something i need to do, but if i can be doing something outside with my kids (planting, sweeping the deck, etc) i do. i do go out and just play with them, too. i think it's important to set an adult example of being outside and enjoying it, too -- that old modeling thing -- if we want our kids to grow up to think being outside is something grown ups do, too.

as my kids get older, though, as circumstances allow i encourage them to be outside in our yard as much as possible. our deck is right off our kitchen and i usually leave our patio door open with just the screen shut. it's basically like being in another room in the house. i certainly encourage that at this age, but i do sometimes wish we had the backyard of my childhood where they could just run outside and play. our yard with it's steep slope and steps down off the deck to it and english ivy and wooded lot just is not super attractive to the kids. the most they evr do out there is walk through it to get to the ballfield or park and frankly that's all dh and i ever do in the backyard, too, and take out the compost. the front yard is slightly more attractive. we got rid of the ivy, still tons of trees and no grass and it slopes uphill, but you don't have to negotiate a bunch of steps to get to it. they do play out there sometimes and on the deck daily in nice weather.

well i've got to cut this short. i'd really be interested in hearing what anybody else has to say about that book i linked Last Child In The Woods. you can read excerpts on amazon's site. i have the thing checked out from the library, but have only read about 50 pages so far, so i'd love to hear from someone who's read more.


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

I posted this thread about the book and my thoughts about it http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=397036
a little over a year ago.

My ds has shown little interest in exploring the woods by himself since then.... I'm open to ideas for discussion how to make that happen in as safe a way as possible.

Yeah, and I am one of those mamas who let their kids play in the road without me supervising







http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=590646


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I actually think that by being out with your kids they have *more* room to explore because they don't have to check their curiosity. They know, "hey I can go wherever I want to because I'm out here with mom." They don't have to stop and wonder if they are going beyond any boundaries.

That's a good point. I just follow my ds around when we go places (parks, museums, etc). I rarely stop him from doing anything. He doesn't need to stay close to me, even, though I like him to be in sight for the most part. He doesn't feel like I'm watching him. I'm not hovering unless he wants me to be actively participating (which is common if he doesn't have a playmate). He isn't chafing to get away from me. Sometimes he decides to go on a bike ride and I just go where he leads, for miles, just there to help negotiate busy streets and keep police officers from thinking he is lost.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I actually think that by being out with your kids they have *more* room to explore because they don't have to check their curiosity. They know, "hey I can go wherever I want to because I'm out here with mom." They don't have to stop and wonder if they are going beyond any boundaries.

That's a good point. I just follow my ds around when we go places (parks, museums, etc). I rarely stop him from doing anything. He doesn't need to stay close to me, even, though I like him to be in sight for the most part. He doesn't feel like I'm watching him. I'm not hovering unless he wants me to be actively participating (which is common if he doesn't have a playmate). He isn't chafing to get away from me. Sometimes he decides to go on a bike ride and I just go where he leads, for miles, just there to help negotiate busy streets and keep police officers from thinking he is lost.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
You really don't think so? I believe it's worse. And it has nothing to do with the Media.

You would not have heard of Gunmans open firing in public places (much less Schools and Malls) 40 years ago.

Columbine Killings
VA Tech Killings
The School in the Amish Communities where the Kids were shot *execution style*

All of these things did not happen to kids in their own yard, I would point out, but in public places. Also, they did in fact happen 40 years ago -- the Univ of TExas shootings were about 40 years ago. The NY Times did a media search in 2000 of mass rampage killings and found results that went back a century. When I read "A Midwife's Tale" about an 18th century midwife in Maine it included her entry and reaction to a man who went crazy and killed his wife and almost all of his children on a rampage-- that was of course not a stranger killing rampage, but the sort of thing nontheless we think didn't used to happen. The rate of rampage killings is up somewhat from 20 or 30 years ago but still very rare and definitely not something that didn't used to happen, just something we know a lot more about. At any rate, since they tend to happen in public places (unless they are perpetrated by the victim's own relative), then having kids playing in their own yard is not really relevant. The kidnapping risk by a stranger is more relevant, although I would think still relatively a small risk in one's yard (more of a risk in a public place also).


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka* 
All of these things did not happen to kids in their own yard, I would point out, but in public places. Also, they did in fact happen 40 years ago -- the Univ of TExas shootings were about 40 years ago. The NY Times did a media search in 2000 of mass rampage killings and found results that went back a century. When I read "A Midwife's Tale" about an 18th century midwife in Maine it included her entry and reaction to a man who went crazy and killed his wife and almost all of his children on a rampage-- that was of course not a stranger killing rampage, but the sort of thing nontheless we think didn't used to happen. The rate of rampage killings is up somewhat from 20 or 30 years ago but still very rare and definitely not something that didn't used to happen, just something we know a lot more about. At any rate, since they tend to happen in public places (unless they are perpetrated by the victim's own relative), then having kids playing in their own yard is not really relevant. The kidnapping risk by a stranger is more relevant, although I would think still relatively a small risk in one's yard (more of a risk in a public place also).

AMEN.

YES, these things absolutely happened! It's just that there weren't 6 million paparazzi and media mongers to be there to show us all the images, AND there were only about 3 hours of news on a day!!! There wasn't 24 hour news stations.

It is a FACT that violent crime is at it's lowest since 1974. I love that we live in such a wonderful safe society, and I can't believe this thread is still debating that... more power to mamas that don't wanna believe it, but I do, and my kids are benefitting from the freedoms the safety in our society affords them.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

I do think it's up to a parent how safe they feel and I understand that on busy streets, in more urban areas there are different circumstances. I also think it's a far different thing to consider whether to allow a 4 year old outside in a fenced yard than a 10 year old. Nonetheless, if we want to talk about whether life is more dangerous now than it was 25-30 years ago-- based on known statistics -- I think it's pretty clearly not in most places in the US.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Our last house had a wild boar problem. Those scared the CRAP out of me. A trip to the compost bin was an adrenaline rush.

Anyway, I refuse to allow the media to make me afraid of EVERYTHING. I walk alone after dark, I let dd run with the pack of kids at the community potluck, we go camping in a TENT (in the backcountry even), and I let her play alone on our unfenced deck that opens up onto the road. She knows she is not allowed to go in the road. She knows to call for me if anyone approaches her. I check on her frequently. She climbs the outside of our deck and I cannot watch. She has not gotten a single splinter yet somehow broke her leg tripping over her own feet in the kitchen with 4 adult eyeballs glued to her. She is on the verge of being trusted in the backyard alone. The unfenced backyard. I still supervise her but by next summer she will be able to go out there alone. I loved the time I spent outside unsupervised as a kid, starting around age 3. I do not think my parents were neglectful. I really believe kid sthat have time on thier own figure out their limits quite well.

I do have a solution to the fear thing though. I do not watch the news (or any TV for that matter). I do not read news websites. I read my local paper and skip the "here is what we are all suppose to be afraid of this week" section. I get my world/national news from npr which does a pretty good job of keeping things in perspective. It did not even occur to be to be afraid of kidnapping out of my backyard until reading this thread.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I would like to add that I do understand that situations change things. Live on a highway? Of course 3 yo cannot be playing next to it alone. Really bad neighborhood? I get it. Apartment with no yard? Of course! It is the completely fenced in yards in Safeville, USA that boggles me.


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## ctdoula (Dec 26, 2002)

It's really shocking to me how many of you are afraid of letting your kids be outside alone. I think this issue is a huge contributor to our obese kids. They just don't get outside as much as they should, and parents feel like they need to hover every second.

My kids play outside without me every day. We live on a busy road, but have a huge back yard (not fenced, but naturally fenced with lilac bushes & pine trees). All the neighbors know my kids, and if they wander into the neighbors yard, that's okay. When I say they're outside without me, that doesn't mean they're totally unsupervised. I'm usually in the kitchen cooking, cleaning the house, doing this or that, in & out of the house. I check on them out the window every few minutes & if I don't see them, I go looking. My nearly 5yr old is totally fine alone outside. I never worry about her. My 2yr old is another story. I do have to keep a close eye on him, mostly because he has a tendency to run to the neighbors yard, but even that is okay because they also have a 2yr old & the dad is a sahd, so they're nearly always out there too.

It would never occur to me to worry about someone kidnapping them out of the yard. That's just crazy. They are much more likely to be injured falling off the playscape.

I love the fact that my kids are free to play, explore, wander, dig, run, jump without me. They're so imaginative, and I think that's because I've always encouraged them to entertain themselves (as I feel like I'm they're mom, not their playmates). Just my 2 cents.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ctdoula* 
It's really shocking to me how many of you are afraid of letting your kids be outside alone. I think this issue is a huge contributor to our obese kids. They just don't get outside as much as they should, and parents feel like they need to hover every second.

Are you serious?







: The obesity epidemic is a product of our fast-food, soda pop, computer/video game/television society. It has nothing to do with parents who go outside with their kids or not.

As I've said above. Being outside with dd allows her *more* freedom. She can run around anywhere knowing that she has no boundaries whatsoever. I can't imagine keeping my dd restricted to a certain area because I think I have something more important to do inside the house. I don't restrict her play inside and I don't restrict her play outside. If I'm out there, she can do whatever she wants and doesn't have to worry about "staying on the deck" or "inside the fence". And as I said in my other posts - I often never even interact with her as she does her explorations. We might be outside for 2 or 3 hours and the only interaction we have is getting a drink of water. I don't think any of the parents who said that they go outside with their kids "hover".

I am actually completely and thoroughly *amazed* at this kind of attitude from APers. We defend wearing our kids to form an attachment when they are infants, and yet just a couple of years later, we're on the other end of the spectrum? It just boggles the mind, IMHO.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ctdoula* 
It's really shocking to me how many of you are afraid of letting your kids be outside alone. I think this issue is a huge contributor to our obese kids. They just don't get outside as much as they should, and parents feel like they need to hover every second.

I don't see the correlation between not allowing kids outside alone and them being obese. I do agree that they are kids that aren't as active, though I don't think it has to do with fear of letting them outside alone. My kids are outside quite frequently. They are far from obese. I think those kids have a few more factors mixed in for their obesity problems. The fact that my kids aren't outside unsupervised (which as I said before is changing in our house) doesn't translate into they are never outside.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ctdoula*
It would never occur to me to worry about someone kidnapping them out of the yard. That's just crazy. They are much more likely to be injured falling off the playscape.

I am not so worried about them being kidnapped. It isn't a crazy notion in our town though b/c it has happened. It was a stranger abduction. It isn't a daily/monthly occurrence, but I think the fact that is happened in my own town opened my eyes a bit more than they would have been otherwise. I do agree though injuries are far more likely.

I guess I am baffled by the concern for kids who have a parent outside watching them play. It really doesn't seem any different to go to the window every few minutes to check on them. It is easier for me to just be outside, than to stop an activity to go check on them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ctdoula*
I love the fact that my kids are free to play, explore, wander, dig, run, jump without me. They're so imaginative, and I think that's because I've always encouraged them to entertain themselves (as I feel like I'm they're mom, not their playmates). Just my 2 cents.

See, this is where the translation is lost IMO. My supervision of my children doesn't hinder their ability to be free to play, explore, wander, dig, run, or jump. I am just nearby to watch it all happen. My crew are also very imaginative and they are very capable of entertaining themselves. I don't interact with them the entire time they are outside...I am just there observing.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Maybe we should clarify where the disagreement is mostly coming in -- I think it's what's appropriate for say 3-8 year olds. Not 10+

I also think the obesity epidemic is more the result of bad habits than not going outside, though going outside I think moderates the effect of the bad habits for those who have them. So for some kids, they get a double whammy, not going outside plus bad habits (bad food, too much TV) inherited from their parents. This is not of course relevant typically to people on this board (or we wouldn't be here).


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I really don't get it either. I mean, no one is saying to let your kid play on the busy road, or to let them out in an unprotected yard in a dangerous neighborhood with no fence while you take a nap, and I think velochic has made it pretty clear that her dd gets plenty of free exploration BUT kids need nature. Period. Kids need time to be away from their parents watchful eye. Kids need to run, jump, climb, get dirty, play imaginative games (that are not based on tv even), and to do a million other things that they are all too often not afforded in our modern society.

We need these things for our development. We need these things to grow into healthy adults. Can we grow into healthy adults without them? Maybe. But I think something crucial will be lacking in the next generation (who really is better versed in popular culture than species of bugs).

I actually heard my neighbor call in her 6 and 9 year old because it was "time to watch a movie". The kids were so disappointed, they just wanted to be outside playing yet their mom wouldn't let them. She had them inside watching a movie on the most BEAUTIFUL day.







: It is no coincidence that they shriek in disgust when my kids show them a new bug they found.

And yes, we should model a love of outdoors. I spend a ton of time outside with them (usually I am building or doing yardwork). I welcome their help in hammering, drilling, measuring, etc. But they are out the door by 7:30 am most nice days which is great because then I can get some housework done before I join them.

The biggest thing dh and I noticed when we got rid of our tv (3 years ago now?) was that OUR perception of the world changed. We only had 3 channels and not a whole lot of news, but we now see the world with so much more optimism. We don't hear the sensational perspective on world events, just the facts. We don't see the glorification of every tragedy (including bloody photos). We judge the world by our community. We have become connected to our neighbors (after all, we don't see them as the statistic that there is a predator/murderer on every street).

And our children aren't growing up in a culture of paranoia and fear. They are physically fit, creative, curious, amazing little people. I have a hard time picturing them as incapable to be outside alone for another 5 years







: I think I wouldn't be doing my job as their mama if they weren't capable of functioning without me hovering.

And just to be clear, I am not picking on anyone here. This thread troubles me because of the countless examples in my own life. Situations where I know the families, the kids in question, the yards and their safety standards, and the detrimental effect it is having on the real life children. I just can't believe how many kids we know who have NEVER touched a worm!!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelle1k* 
I posted this thread about the book and my thoughts about it http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=397036
a little over a year ago.

thanks for the linky to your old thread michelle. i enjoyed reading it.

i've got to find time to read the rest of the book. better get off MDC i guess...


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Just b/c I don't let my not-even-two year-old and four year-old play in an insecure yard unsupervised doesn't mean I'm never letting them get exericise or play on their own. That's just silly. With their ages and our yard (even in a safe neighborhood) I think I'd be irresponsible to leave them out alone, no matter how much I romanticized it as roaming free and gaining independence.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Again, I think we need not compare the restrictions on 2 and 4 year olds to criticisms of restrictions on 9 year olds -- two totally different things IMHO.

I personally think up to 8 it could go either way. After that, I think unsupervised play (perhaps with walkie talkies if that gives peace of mind) is better unless the neighborhood is unsafe.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
And our children aren't growing up in a culture of paranoia and fear. They are physically fit, creative, curious, amazing little people. I have a hard time picturing them as incapable to be outside alone for another 5 years







: I think I wouldn't be doing my job as their mama if they weren't capable of functioning without me hovering.

And just to be clear, I am not picking on anyone here. This thread troubles me because of the countless examples in my own life. Situations where I know the families, the kids in question, the yards and their safety standards, and the detrimental effect it is having on the real life children. I just can't believe how many kids we know who have NEVER touched a worm!!

Trying to figure out why a child who is out supervised would never have the opportunity to touch a worm. I am confused why supervision is lumped together with not being allowed to explore and get dirty.

I am also wondering how my being outside equals hovering. I am not on top of my kids, they are not right beside me at all times. They are in my view, but they are definately not being hovered over.

I know you weren't talking about a specific person, but I wanted to address it anyway. My kids are in no way growing up paranoid or fearful of the world. They have the knowledge we feel they need to be safe in their surroundings. It is no different to us than teaching them to care for their bodies properly or any number of informative teachings they have had over the years. My kids are also creative, fit, curious, and amazing. Why would my being outside at the same time as them hinder those qualities?

I did ask my almost 12 year old (bday in June) if he thought I was too overprotective. His response was, "Yea, sometimes...but then I tell you and we work out a compromise." Then he shrugged his shoulders and walked away. We have been giving him more freedom as he asks for it and have allowed him to do things with us not right there a bit more lately. He is getting old enough that he needs that freedom. The first 11 years of supervision has not hindered him at all as far as I can see.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I agree. Although I don't have kids that age yet. I'm still not entirely sure which way I would go. Depends on my kids and the neighborhood I guess.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
As I've said above. Being outside with dd allows her *more* freedom. She can run around anywhere knowing that she has no boundaries whatsoever. I can't imagine keeping my dd restricted to a certain area because I think I have something more important to do inside the house. I don't restrict her play inside and I don't restrict her play outside. If I'm out there, she can do whatever she wants and doesn't have to worry about "staying on the deck" or "inside the fence".

I had written a post earlier agreeing with your previously expressed statement but my internet was down.

Anyway, this is totally our experience. Ds can go on a bike ride anywhere he wants because I'm there to follow him, help him negotiate street crossings, and keep a police officer from picking him up thinking he is lost. I don't hover at parks and playgrounds. He has all the privacy he wants with the security of knowing I'm available if he wants me. I don't have to have consequences if he doesn't remember a rule about a boundary.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I am actually completely and thoroughly *amazed* at this kind of attitude from APers. We defend wearing our kids to form an attachment when they are infants, and yet just a couple of years later, we're on the other end of the spectrum? It just boggles the mind, IMHO.

I'm sorry you're feeling attacked but it doesn't make sense to continue to try to make a correlation between how AP you are and how much you supervise your kid's play outdoors.

Being more or less supervisory when your kids play outside has nothing to do with adherence to the AP philosophy.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I do have a solution to the fear thing though. I do not watch the news (or any TV for that matter). I do not read news websites. I read my local paper and skip the "here is what we are all suppose to be afraid of this week" section. I get my world/national news from npr which does a pretty good job of keeping things in perspective. It did not even occur to be to be afraid of kidnapping out of my backyard until reading this thread.


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I would and have allowed ds to play in our fenced back yard. Dh is so paranoid that I can't do it when he's there. I have no concerns about my neighbors. It's an unusual situation where we live. We live in a pack of 6 houses in the middle of a cornfield. The houses were originally built by the farmer for his children back in early 1900's. Anyway, dh has lived in our house since he was 5 yrs old. 3 of our neighbors are our age and we have gone through elementary and high school with them. 1 is a cousin of a guy dh knew all through high school. The other people just moved in but I'm not concerned with them stealing ds out of my fenced yard. They have an 8 yr old dd and one on the way.

Plus, ds usually doesn't do ANYTHING without asking my permission. That's just his nature and I always tell him "thank you for asking".


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

DS (Age 3.75) is outside every single day in some form of fashion. Mostly with DH who is WAHD and is DS's Primary Caregiver... for about 2 hours (weather permitting) in different areas of the city. He travels with my DH on his jobs.

The Nature of DH's job requires him to be outside and DS is exploring, touching, feeling etc. DH doesn't hover. He gives him lots of free rein. He tells DS "As long as I can see you" and that's working for them.

As an Extroverted Kid, DS *prefers* to be within arm's reach of DH or myself.

That's just who is.

So even if DH and I were the kind of parents who would shoo him out the door to "go play" (which we are not), he would come looking for us within 2 minutes.

Because he needs the interaction with us. And as AP Parents, we aren't going to deny his *need*.

We don't have a fenced in backyard. But if I did have a fenced in backyard and DS wanted to go play outside, I'd say great idea, grab my folding chair and join him.

If he wants to engage Me (which again as an Extroverted Kid I'd Expect this from HIM), fine no problem.

If he wants to wonder around and explore...again, no problem. I can relax in my folding chair.

As a full time working Mama, DS and I go to the Local Public Playground for 2 hours every Saturday and I go and sit on the bench and watch while he plays and interact with other kids. I like it because there are at least 2 other Mamas there and I get Adult Interaction and some healthy sunlight for myself.

Parents need fresh air and sunlight too. It isn't just for kids. It's healthy for everyone. Fresh air and sunlight makes me feel good, I feel better and my mood is lighter.

But again, being the Extroverted Kid that he is, 60% of the time, HE is hovering around ME.

And aside from the safety issues we've all talked about my child is still going through a bit of Seperation Anxiety and FLIPS if he doesn't see me (inside OR outside). He cries REALLY hard and it breaks my heart.

So, while some Posters allow their 3 or 4 year olds outside alone.. my child simply isn't there (emotionally).

And I don't know about some posters on here, but I LOVE being outside with DS. It's a good feeling. It makes me feel connected with DS. Especially when we are the only ones at the playground, it feels like we are ONE.

I thought as AP'ers one goal is to advocate Family Togetherness/Closeness/sharing that bond.

And just because DH and I are outside with DS, doesn't mean it will lead to obesity









I'm still trying to figure that one out


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

I am actually completely and thoroughly *amazed* at this kind of attitude from APers. We defend wearing our kids to form an attachment when they are infants, and yet just a couple of years later, we're on the other end of the spectrum? It just boggles the mind, IMHO.
While I understand why some folks are not comfortable allowing their kids outside alone due to whatever circumstances/beliefs they have I guess I am trying to figure out how allowing my son to play outside in a safe and secure environment is anti-AP and by doing so I am suddenly "on the other end of the spectrum??









Its not like anyone said they send their kids outside, lock the door and ignore them for hours. Virtually everyone who was OK with it said they were within earshot, frequently checked on their children and were available for play if the child wanted/needed them. How is that anti-AP? If my son has the "need" to play outdoors and I am in the middle of something that can't be delayed how is making him wait *more* AP?

this is from API http://www.attachmentparenting.com/index.html

Quote:

Attachment Parenting is a philosophy based in the practice of nurturing parenting practices that create strong emotional bonds, also known as secure attachment, between the infant and parent(s). This style of parenting encourages responsiveness to the infant or child's emotional needs, and develops trust that their emotional needs will be met. As a result, this strong attachment helps the child develop secure, empathic, peaceful, and enduring relationships.

Even this quote about AP parenting in the later years does not counter allowing a child to play outdoors out of eyesight of their parents. The key to AP parenting is being physically and emotionally *available*. If the parent send their kids out never to checked in on again for hours that's just bad parenting. No one is saying they do that.

Quote:

Be present and available for your children

Children still desire, enjoy and need the presence and availability of their parents.
Being available makes children feel safe, secure and cared for. Parents should remember that being physically present is not enough. Active listening, making eye contact, and knowing your children's friends will help keep the lines of communication open.
Working parents should avoid the 'latch-key' temptation and find appropriate adult supervision for their children after school. Even teenagers need supervision - most teenage pregnancies occur between the hours of 3 p.m. and 6 p.m.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
The key to AP parenting is being physically and emotionally *available*.

Well isn't that what DH and I are doing when we are outside with DS?


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

First of all, I just disagree, I'm not saying that I think anybodies feelings are "wrong". Parental choices are personal choices, I would never tell anybody what I think they should do. BTW I am really enjoying this discussion it's given me a lot to think about. I'm ending each one of my statements with a * because I'm not in a heated debate over this, just discussing, and sharing my view. -my apologies for such a long post.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JandJmom* 
Call me paranoid but I'm sorry, unsupervised kids are the ones who get hurt, get snatched, or a million other scary scenerios. How can you trust a curious and resourceful kid to NEVER go out of the gate, when they 'are in their own imaginary world' half the time? I don't trust them like that- it's not possible.

It's not only unsupervised kids who get hurt or snatched. I know your exaggerating for effect saying "a million other scary scenerios" but that's what we're talking about. The fear of "a million other scary scenerios". I can maybe think off hand of 4-5 things that could happen to my dd while she is playing outside unsupervised. Those 4-5 things (falling, getting hurt, etc.) she will heal and learn from. When other's here have been thinking about molestation and kidnapping, those two fears have never entered my mind as a real possibility. Not while my dd is playing unsupervised in our yard.
I don't trust that my curious dd won't break some rules when she is playing alone outside. I expect that she will, and that IMO is half the fun of being outside alone. I feel that she is testing herself. Feeling the world on her terms. Usually this results in her getting a bruise or a scrape. Then I ask her how it happened, (she doesn't know I'm usually watching and already know) and I explain that is why Mama had a rule about that. Threw watching dd play I have learned that she does deserve more trust, and I have allowed more unsupervised play because of that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
No it doesn't. We were disagreeing on whether or not the Crime rate is up.
And I stand firm on my opinion. The crime rate IS up. But that doesn't mean, I live my life in a state of "fear". I don't live life looking over my shoulder for lurking danger to happen.
I live life with the Good and the Bad.
DS is simply too young to be oustide playing without Adult supervision. Period.
I'm really sorry the Parents who do allow their kids to play alone outside have a hard time understanding this. Especially on an AP board.

I understand your fears, your child is 3. At age 3 I had only begun trusting my dd to play on the deck unsupervised, and only for a few minutes at a time (like to run to the bathroom).
I don't have a hard time understanding that other's aren't comfortable with their children playing outside unsupervised, I totally get it. I just don't have the same rule in our home. Attachment parenting IMO doesn't always mean being attached. It's also about listening to our child's cues and needs. One of my dd's needs is to play outside from morning till night in the summer, and no I don't have the time to be with her 100% of that time. I do spend maybe 60% with her, gardening, or taking walks, but I also need to make dinner and other things. So I'll make dinner at the window, while I watch her playing outside. Some of that time she might go out of my sight, and might get hurt, and I think she'll live threw that.
I'm not advocating letting my 6yo run wild without looking outside every so often, or letting her out to play after breakfast and not checking on her till dinner. I don't see how on a AP board we can't have different views on this subject.
About the crime rate, and the media. Does anybody else remember a few summer's ago when all the news channels were calling it "The summer of the shark"? That was totally fear based, AND there were actually LESS shark attacks that year than the year before. As for a higher rate in molestation's I believe the higher rate is due to victims speaking up and being heard and reported, not that it's happening more now then ever before. Kidnappings I blame on a higher rate of divorce, since the majority of kidnappings is by a parent. It's been written about time and time again that the media fuels a fear in us. That we believe that we're not as safe as we used to be, when we are safer. The statistics on crime show us that we are safer. I'm not saying we're "safe" many bad things can happen to anyone of us. It's just those things that could happen don't dictate the rules I have in my home.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka* 
Again, I think we need not compare the restrictions on 2 and 4 year olds to criticisms of restrictions on 9 year olds -- two totally different things IMHO.
I personally think up to 8 it could go either way. After that, I think unsupervised play (perhaps with walkie talkies if that gives peace of mind) is better unless the neighborhood is unsafe.

I agree we're not talking about letting preschooler's run loose outside. We're talking about kids being kids. My opinion is, in a normally safe neighborhood, after age 8 kids should be allowed to play outside unsupervised. My dd is 6 and is allowed to play unsupervised. I have friends with children the same age and if they we're my child I wouldn't allow them as much time alone as I do my dd. Different kids, different neighborhoods. It's a personal choice, I don't think anybody is "wrong", just different than myself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka* 
Nonetheless, if we want to talk about whether life is more dangerous now than it was 25-30 years ago-- based on known statistics -- I think it's pretty clearly not in most places in the US.

Can we start a thread on this subject? I would love to be apart of that discussion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Are you serious?







: The obesity epidemic is a product of our fast-food, soda pop, computer/video game/television society. It has nothing to do with parents who go outside with their kids or not.

Maybe not in your home because it sounds like your family is active, but in most homes I do think the obesity happening with kids does have to do with unsupervised play. My dd wouldn't get as much time outside as she does now if she had to be with me at all times. I think many kids wouldn't get any time outside without a parent. I do blame food choices as a larger evil over less activity, but to say that it plays no part at all I personally think isn't true.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkpmomtoboys* 
I'm sorry you're feeling attacked but it doesn't make sense to continue to try to make a correlation between how AP you are and how much you supervise your kid's play outdoors.

Being more or less supervisory when your kids play outside has nothing to do with adherence to the AP philosophy.

Well I certainly don't feel attacked at all. Goodness gracious, no. I don't know what I've said to even come close to appearing to be attacked. I'm just trying to get people to think about different situations and I, myself, am learning about different situations. I'm actually quite enjoying the discussion.









As far as AP goes, what I am saying is that children have an innate need to be with their parents. By being near their parents, they have a greater sense of confidence. We move away from our kids at *their* pace, which is what makes us AP. But to tell a 3 year old to go outside because *you* can see him/her... it makes me wonder what the 3 year old is thinking when they are outside and can't see mommy or daddy. Sounds like for most kids it's not a problem. It would have been a serious problem for my dd. It would be now, too. Not because she's scared, but because knowing I'm there, she has the whole world to explore. Without me there, she would have to question what she is doing and it would stifle her creativity and sense of adventure. She's known at school as "The Daredevil" and I feel that she is able to be devilish because she feels secure.

All of these discussions have been about "I can see them out my window" and what my argument is, is that "yeah, but they can't see you". I know when I'm out on the deck grilling and someone asks me a question from the kitchen, I have no idea where they are.

So what I'm saying in regards to AP, is that by giving kids the reassurance that you are there, it gives them a greater sense of confidence. When you're in the house, they don't know where you are. You could still be in the kitchen or you could be upstairs using the restroom.

Everyone keeps saying that by "letting them outside on their own", it's giving them a sense of independence. I'm saying (and of course these are general terms and I'm using a very small population sample for reference) that by being within eyesight gives them them the courage to do things they might not do if they looked around and didn't see an adult that could bail them out if needed.

I dare say my dd would have never climbed so high in that tree the other day if I hadn't been there. She probably wouldn't have climbed it at all wondering if it was okay or not.

Some kids have a need for their parents to be visible to them when they are playing in order to be more brave about their playing. That is 100% AP IMHO.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
I'm still trying to figure that one out









Your child is younger than most of the children we're talking about. I don't think anybody is
telling you that your wrong. (Actually I think this discussion is staying at a very adult level
I'm very proud of all of us. Now watch the thread get closed.







) There isn't anything to
figure out. I'm comfortable allowing my child to play outside alone, and your not. That's okay.

My parenting disagrees with people all the time, we're all different. Different neighborhoods,
different parts of the world, different lifestyles. I'm not trying to convince anybody to change
their view or be more like me. Just talking about the differences between us all.


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Well isn't that what DH and I are doing when we are outside with DS?









And the *opposite* of that would be DS playing outside while DH and I are inside doing our own thing?

Wow. Really? So if I'm standing in the kitchen washing the dishes, and DD is playing in the yard directly below me, where I can hear her if she needs and wants me to come down and play, I am unavailable for her? If she's in her bedroom playing with her dollhouse and I'm in my office room working, does that also make me physically and emotionally unavailable? I had no idea. What a bummer.


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
As far as AP goes, what I am saying is that children have an innate need to be with their parents. By being near their parents, they have a greater sense of confidence....

Everyone keeps saying that by "letting them outside on their own", it's giving them a sense of independence. I'm saying (and of course these are general terms and I'm using a very small population sample for reference) that by being within eyesight gives them them the courage to do things they might not do if they looked around and didn't see an adult that could bail them out if needed.

I dare say my dd would have never climbed so high in that tree the other day if I hadn't been there. She probably wouldn't have climbed it at all wondering if it was okay or not.

I also think children have a very strong, innate need for independent play and alone time, and I don't think satisfying that need is anti-AP. Frequently my DD1 will go down to her room or the bathroom and close the door and do her thing (well, DD2 does too, but that usually means trouble of some kind







). I don't think that means that she has no attachment to me, or feeling of security, or sense of confidence.

And there have been many times when my DD has wanted to do something and wanted my presence. She called, I looked out the window, she told me what she wanted to do, I went down immediately. I think that's plenty of confidence!

And darn, the girl has broken two bones while I was standing right in front of her. Sometimes I wonder if she couldn't do with a little LESS confidence!


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Well isn't that what DH and I are doing when we are outside with DS?









And the *opposite* of that would be DS playing outside while DH and I are inside doing our own thing?


I am not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if my questions just was really not clear. The question was


> I guess I am trying to figure out how allowing my son to play outside in a safe and secure environment is anti-AP /QUOTE] as well as
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melissel* 
Wow. Really? So if I'm standing in the kitchen washing the dishes, and DD is playing in the yard directly below me, where I can hear her if she needs and wants me to come down and play, I am unavailable for her? If she's in her bedroom playing with her dollhouse and I'm in my office room working, does that also make me physically and emotionally unavailable? I had no idea. What a bummer.

I didn't mean it the way you put it (and I amended my post). I am sure you are an AP mom whether you were in/out of the house no matter what.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Please please let's not turn this into a more-AP-than-thou discussion.

I really find those tiring


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

HollyBearsMom said:


> I am not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if my questions just was really not clear. The question was
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *melissel* 
I also think children have a very strong, innate need for independent play and alone time, her.


And then you have kids who are the total opposite, like my DS









DS is extremely Extroverted and he needs constant interaction. Alone time doesn't work for him. It's not meeting his need.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
Your child is younger than most of the children we're talking about. I don't think anybody is telling you that your wrong. I'm comfortable allowing my child to play outside alone, and your not. That's okay.


There were a couple of posters who allowed their kids to play outside as young as Age 3.

But you are right, all what really matters is own comfort level.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

that was weird a double post minutes later!!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
How is all that "the other end of the spectrum" from AP?

Because it is sending a confusing message to the Parents who are outside with their kids.

At least it does to me. I am really confused.

Since I have been a member on this board, I have really learned the meaning of "Attached". The whole theory has been drilled in my head since the birth of my son and I joined MDC.

So it wouldn't feel right *to me* if I am looking at DS from outside a kitchen window.

And I'll clarify before I get slammed it doesn't mean You (the general You) are not attached because your child is outside playing alone.

*This is just me personally.*


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
The bottom line is I am getting slammed because I choose to be outside with my child. Unbelievable.

I don't see that you and others parents who let don't let their kids outside alone are being slammed. What I see is people being called anti-AP for allowing their kids outside. To *me* that is unbelievable. As I said earlier if someone does not feel that their children can be outside w/o supervision that is their personal choice and I have no issue with that decision. I do take issue with the fact that parents who allow their kids outside unsupervised are suddenly not AP parents.

Quote:

Please please let's not turn this into a more-AP-than-thou discussion.

I really find those tiring








I agree! I see so many posts where people throw out the AP thing when people don't agree with them as if that is the ultimate slam. As if one decision negates all other aspects of the AP philosophy.







:


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
DS is extremely Extroverted and he needs constant interaction. Alone time doesn't work for him. It's not meeting his need.

That's my ds, too. He'll be six this summer but wants me with him as much as possible. I do trust him to not do anything foolish at his age but we don't live in Safeville, USA.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka* 
Please please let's not turn this into a more-AP-than-thou discussion.

I really find those tiring









I agree and as the one who brought it up, can I be the one to put it out of the discussion?














I'm sorry I said anything. Typing, sewing and making dinner all at the same time here (before dd comes home, so I can go outside with her.







)


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
And then you have kids who are the total opposite, like my DS









DS is extremely Extroverted and he needs constant interaction. Alone time doesn't work for him. It's not meeting his need.

Ah, well then yes, leaving that kid alone outside would indeed be cruel and anti-AP







My DD1 can play for hours on end alone out in the yard. Of course, every flower, blade of grass, and piece of shrubbery would be pulled up by the end







:

Honestly, I think everyone's feeling a bit slammed here, which is natural in a debate. I admit to feeling as though some of you here feel I am neglectful of my child. I am one of those posters who allowed her (older) 3 year old to be alone in our backyard (very quiet neighborhood, 6-foot privacy fence with padlocked gate, lots of open rear windows). As I had stated, my DD1 is a very thoughtful, cautious, mature child--always has been. I choose to trust her, and the kidnapping/molestation thing--at least within my own yard--is not a fear of mine. Honestly, if it truly was, I wouldn't feel comfortable letting her alone in the yard no matter what age she was!

I think the "spectrum" idea is bothering some people, since it seems to imply that the "other end" is, as a PP suggested, shoving your kids outside the door, locking it, and putting on headphones. Maybe your spectrum looks a bit different, but that might be what's getting some backs up. I weaned my DD gently at almost 3. Some choose to do CLW. I don't think either of these is less or more AP--the key is that the actions were done gently and with love. Just as the keys we're talking about here are availability and comfort level. I'm always available for my DD, whether she's in the same room, a different room, or outside. If either she or I were uncomfortable with her being alone outside, I would not allow it.

Odds are we're not going to truly be able to see each others' sides here, the same way some of us can't fathom how co-sleeping can ever be comfortable, or how some of us can let their babies sleep on their tummies. I can see WHY some mamas would feel the way they do about this, but can't internalize it. I AM happy to see how respectful the debate has been!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

[

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I guess I am baffled by the concern for kids who have a parent outside watching them play. It really doesn't seem any different to go to the window every few minutes to check on them. It is easier for me to just be outside, than to stop an activity to go check on them.

<snip>

See, this is where the translation is lost IMO. My supervision of my children doesn't hinder their ability to be free to play, explore, wander, dig, run, or jump. I am just nearby to watch it all happen.









: My son has touched worms, ants, digs up dirt, stacks rocks, etc. etc. - all while I'm relaxing on the deck...I'm there, but I'm not hindering or directing his play. As I said before, until my son is:
-Able to accurately relay the events of a situation to me and
-Able to be proactive about his safety during interactions with others (be it children, or random strangers),

I'm going to be there to provide him with a safety net. I realize he's still on the young side for the discussion (just 3 in January), but I don't see myself comfortable with him being on his own for another couple years. I'm thinking grade school aged, before I'm comfortable letting him play in the back yard while I'm inside.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Are you serious?







: The obesity epidemic is a product of our fast-food, soda pop, computer/video game/television society. It has nothing to do with parents who go outside with their kids or not.











And as romantic as it is to think of how things were when I was a kid, roaming around the neighborhood, walking 2 miles to my friends' house, etc. etc. times do change. Whether there is an amplification of bad events in the media or not, it doesn't take the news to let me know that the world is not the same as when I was a kid. All it takes is me seeing a dozen people walk past someone who has dropped a bag of groceries without offering to help, and I'm the first one to stop (with two kids in tow) to offer a hand.







: In some ways I wish the world were more like it used to be - but in some ways, I'm glad it's not. It just is what it is - I don't think I'm living in fear, I'm aware of my surroundings and the fact that not everyone is looking out for my or my family's best interests. The world is full of kind, generous, friendly people. But, I'd feel like I was living in denial if I didn't recognize that there are in fact people out there with ulterior motives and take simple, non-emotionally-crippling measures to ensure my child's safety. I think there's a big different between being "around", as I am, and being right on top of your kid, meddling in everything they are trying to do.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm reopening this thread


----------



## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Thank you! This is a great discussion!


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

FIRST OF ALL-so glad to see this thread back. I hope we can all discuss this further.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom* 
The key to AP parenting is being physically and *emotionally* *available*.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Well isn't that what DH and I are doing when we are outside with DS?









YES, exactly. It's also what we're doing with our children when we allow them to be
outside on their own.

You see? We're both available, our children know that we'd be there in a second to
help them in a pinch. Just because I'm not physically at my dd's side while she is playing
outside at all moments, she knows I'm "there" for her.

I really believe that it's about what's age appropriate as well. When my dd was 3/4 years
of age I was still testing the waters with her to see if she could be trusted to play on her
own. She gained my trust and I felt more comfortable with her playing unattended in our
yard.

It's about their comfort level and our comfort level. I wouldn't tell another person that they
should allow their child to play unsupervised if their not comfortable with that choice. I
personally think I would be holding my dd back if I didn't allow her the opportunity to play
outside on her own, that's my own comfort level. I don't see it as a AP issue.


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## TattooedMama (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Yes but when the Parent feels it's right time. Not because everybody else is doing it. >>>>snip
Why can't it be when the Parent feels it's the right time? Why do the Kids have to be so young to put the pressure on to let go? Really.

Why can't it also be when the child feels it is the right time? Can't this be equated to child led weaning? Isn't it a balance between mom and child's comfort? I am talking hypothetically here if everything else is controlled for safety issues. It seems like a blanket statement to say you would never let your 8 or 9 year old play alone. If you have a 2 year old you might think that now, but get back to me when you have an 8 year old. And no







: please, I am not talking about obvious dangers like cars, busy streets, and open bodies of water. I was NOT going to join this discussion but I have enjoyed reading the thread. FWIW we live in an urban multicultural area of a medium size city. My back yard has a 6 foot wooden privacy fence that locks from the inside and can be seen from the kitchen window. My 2 year old plays outside alone every day the weather allows.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

I do let my 3.5 and 6.5 play outside alone. I check on them. But the set up of my small enclosed backyard is quite unique. There are 15' high, dense hedges on 2 sides with thick wire fence behind. There are trees in the back and the back of the neighbor's garage (the 18 yo neighbor girl who babysits from time to time). Our backyard is very secluded. You cannot see in from the back or the sides.

I try to give my kids some confidence in things. I let my 6.5 yo walk a little ahead to buy ice cream on his own, or walk into a (glassed in) store to buy something. I let him walk 1 block home "by himself" (I'm behind with his 3.5 yo brother) to see that he does actually look both ways when crossing the (unbusy) street. Yesterday I let him stay "guard" in the house while his brother and I walked the neighbor's dog around the block (DH was sleeping upstairs). When he wants to use the men's washroom I stand outside.

These types of situations give me the chance to discuss how to deal with situations and see how he does while he is still little. Most people are very kind to kids actually, it's human nature. I want him to realize that bad people are the minority but to be prepared for them anyway. I don't want him to be scared in his own life.


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## vgnmama2keller (Apr 27, 2006)

This is an interesting coversation and we all have different perspectives perhaps because we all have different experiences and live in different places. I have recently been letting my 2 and a half year old play in our fenced backyard if I am in the kitchen (window to backyard) or in the front yard. I am always checking on him but feel more and more comfortable about letting him continue his play while I run in or do something that is not directly in front of him.

The thought of letting him run around the neighborhood by himself when he is much older terrifies me for different reasons. 1 is cars, 2 is gangs, 3 is dogs, 4 is sexual offenders, 5 glass on the sidewalk...and the list goes on. But I have to stop and question where do these fears come from and who put them there.

I wanted to point out that the statistics on sexual assault on girls and boys should say that the majority of assualt on kids is by someone the family knows- dad, brother, boyfriend, neighbor. etc... My background is in violence prevention and I think it is important to say that as women we are conditioned to beleive that there is a stranger waiting in the bushes to attaack us or our children. And I am NOT trying to say that this doesn't happen because I know that it does but the likely hood of getting assualted is higher by someone you know rather than someone you don't know. AS women we are constantly on high alert to the safety of ourselves so much that we spend a lot of time figuring out where we are going to walk if it is dark, how we are going to carry our keys when we walk to our car alone and so on. I have gone a bit off topic here but I wanted to add the whole thing about fear and what is real or just fed to us by media and so on. Just my thoughts that I struggle with everyday about how to be confident in myself so that my son is confient in himself but how to keep his safe too from real threats! It's hard!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Yeah this thread has definitely made me think. With the nicer weather lately there have been moments where I have left them outside to run in and get something, which I wouldn't have done when ds1 was younger. I'm not exactly about to change my mind and let them play outside (certainly not ds2), but I think it is good to reanalyze fears once in awhile.

I finally got around to reading my latest (or was it older?) mothering issue- there was an article about an American mom in Sweden, talking about how they worry so much less about their kids playing alone outside, or in unfenced schoolyards, etc. Granted I think Sweden's a little bit different of an environment if you're talking stranger danger, but it was an interesting article.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 

I finally got around to reading my latest (or was it older?) mothering issue- there was an article about an American mom in Sweden, talking about how they worry so much less about their kids playing alone outside, or in unfenced schoolyards, etc. Granted I think Sweden's a little bit different of an environment if you're talking stranger danger, but it was an interesting article.

I dont think it really is, though. The bigger difference is the media. I think it's been mentioned before, but any attack by a stranger is statistically so rare. Less likely than a large number of risks that are rarely if ever discussed on TV.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

I am paranoid. I am fearful of abduction, rape, molestation. We have two beautiful girls and strangers have commented on how we should always "keep them on a tight leash". I fear these things, to my core, and I try to take precautions to ensure that these things won't happen. Our eldest (DD1) is 6, and our youngest (DD2) will be three in a few weeks.

That said, I recognise my paranoia. I can seperate emotion from logic and I can see times when I need to pull in the reins and times when I need to let go. As we've seen from these posts every situation is different, and requires a different amount from parents. Some environments are more comfortable, others not, and we all judge each individual environment as we approach it to determine our comfort level regarding safety. That is part of parenting.

We live in a small suburban development, one way in, one way out and it is a big circle with us at the very bottom (furthest away from the entrance). We live on 1/2 and acre and our house buts up to woods and we have a creek (and wild animals) running through our property. The neighborhood is filled with kids all running around and playing, exploring, creating. We have limits, but our kids do play with their friends restricted to parts of the yard while we are in the front yard etc.. I would not expect anyone here to come over to our house and have the same level of confidence with their kids (and I would not with their kids because they don't know the surroundings) just as I may not be comfortable with my kids in an otherwise safe but unfamiliar situation to me or them. Much of it comes down to familiarity (both parental and for the children).

I agree with PP's who said that their children were more likely to take risks if their parents were there. That is very true for our DD1 but not for our DD2 so our approach changes even from one child to the next. Our DD1 relies on us for much of her self-confidence regarding her physical abilities. While she is gaining confidence in that area, it is something we have really tried to work with her on. We want her to have her own sense of capability and not rely on us. With our DD's personality, combined with some hovering on my part due to some depth perception deficits she had as a younger child I feel like my actions helped attribute to her lack of physical self confidence.

I have also noted that play does change with parental supervision versus then with not. If I'm sitting on the back porch and the kids know I'm there they are concious of my presence. This impacts what they are willing to play or imagine, I presume due to concern of my reaction. If I am removed from their sight and they are less or not aware of me being within ear shot they play differently. I want them to have the freedom of creativity and play and I don't want to stiffle that with my parental influence (engaged with them or not) so I conciously choose to give then their space and lack of awareness of my presence.

Again, I am paranoid and fearful. We let our 6 year walk (while we watch) up the sidewalk 2, 5 and 6 houses with her 3 year old sister in tow to see if the neighbors (ages: 4, 8, 10, 11, 12 - different families) want to play. Our 6 year old is allowed to play in their yard if their parents are out there but she has a walkie-talkie and we have one too, so we do have her strapped to us via wireless com. (On a side note, all the neighbor kids have walkie-talkies to communicate with their parents too, and when the kids are all together we all get on the same frequency and the kids use them in their play with each other, as well as the parents to check in with each other). As a kid I remembering running all around the neigbhorhood and not having any communication with mom. While I am paranoid, I feel much of this emotion within myself is irrational, but I still have made accomodations to ease my comfort level.

All of that said (sorry so long) I am a logical person. I believe the media is a business and while I would prefer news to be filled with politics that isn't what sells. I am sad that the supply and demand of news has displayed how paranoid our USAmerican culture has become. We get our news from RSS feeds and that's it. Anybody interested in a good read should check out "Culture of Fear" and "Freakonomics". I don't believe the hype. No, I'm not a dicotomy, I have simply achieved a balance between my irrational emotions and my logical self. I don't even believe my own hype.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree that it depends on your children.

I worked for a family with three kids, ages 4, 5, and 9. Mom told me the rules. The 9 year old could basically go where she wanted in the neighborhood as long as she checked in every hour, and if she was going INTO someone's house, had to let me know whose house (I knew who was approved or not). The 4 and 5 year old were allowed to go anywhere on the block TOGETHER and to the small playground behind their house, again TOGETHER. If they wanted to go to someone's house, they had to let me know, and I would walk over with them to make sure a parent was there.

All three children were SUPER responsible, even the four year old. There were a couple days where I was helping the eldest with their homework, and the two of them would check in, literally, every 5 minutes to say, "We're going to Joey's" or "We're going to the playground", or "We're going to ride our bikes". No problems, I knew where they were, etc.

I worked for another family with a 6 year old boy that I would trust about as far as I could throw him. He just didn't have very good decision making skills, was defiant, etc. I never let him out of my sight, not even in the back yard. When it was too cold for the baby sister to go out, he and his sister (4, but with better "life" skills, IMO) knew they had to stay where I could see them from the big picture window/sliding doors in the living room.

When my daughter is older (she's only 10 mos), I'll do the same thing...assess her maturity, decision-making ability, and whether she follows directions/rules well, and go on that.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh* 
I dont think it really is, though. The bigger difference is the media. I think it's been mentioned before, but any attack by a stranger is statistically so rare. Less likely than a large number of risks that are rarely if ever discussed on TV.

I partly agree. I think it's both. The media is nuts, but depending where you live in the U.S., it can be more dangerous. I don't think Sweden or similar nations have much poverty-driven violence, gangs, etc. As far as actual stranger danger, I'd venture to say that it's still worse here, though I agree the media really magnifies the culture of fear.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Wow! I haven't been on here in a few days and it took me a while to catch up. Interesting read...

I'd like to add a few things...

I don't watch the news - don't even get any channels on our tv. Nor do I read in online or in a paper. So, no I"m not getting some fear thing from the news.

As for leaving your children in a church - I personally have *no confidence* in a background check. I have had them done. They are done only in the state you currently live in. And really, IMHO, they guarantee nothing. I bet with all the children molested by family and friends that those family or friends would have passed a background check. On a deeper basis, I just wouldn't leave my kids with someone I don't know even if there are glass windows. I don't know that person's philosophies about disciplline, how they will talk to my kid if they dont' like what she is doing, if she cries etc. Now keep in mind that my dd is not quite 2. She can't tell me if someone is treating her wrongly.

Oh, and I *have* read the Nature Deficit Disorder but have *not* read Protecting the Gift. So really, I don't fit any of the "stereotypes" of the person who chooses to not allow their child to play outside alone.

We live in a 3rd floor apt (but wouldn't matter if we lived in the country to me in regard to paying outside). Anyway, I work hard to allow dd to have free time playing outside and much of the time we are out there I am "doing my own thing" so she really doesn't even know that I'm watching her. As for nature exper - at not quite 2 she will point out buds to me, talk about planting seeds, pick flowers, dig in the dirt, sit and sing, play with stick and pinecones and stuff, point out birds and even listen and recognize adn point out to me the call of a chickadee.

Oh, and as she gets older, she will be allowed to climb trees, jump off of things and other dangerous stuff. Broken bones heal. I would be horrified if she got one, but being outside to protect from the slim possibility of abduction etc does not mean hovering or being over-protective in play. I guess it is the outcome to me - if she breaks a bone, then it heals. If she gets abducted or molestd, that's different.

Also, I was prob the first one to mention on here - in my post on page 1 - that yes, most abductions and molestations occur from friends and family. Because of this, dh and I have decided that dd will not be out of our sight in *any* situation (with exceptions of a few trusted people we have known our entire lives) until she is old enough to speak up and fight back and tell us.

I agree completely, it is a very slim possibility that something would happen. However, I prefer to protect her from that slim possibility that has great potential outcome in terms of life scars if it were to happen.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Why does the distinction between "stranger abduction" vs. "abduction by someone known to the family" have any bearing here? Either could happen undetected by parents from a backyard, fence or not, if check-ins through a window (or by any means) are not fairly continuous... espcially with a less mature child.

FTR, I am not overly concerned about abductions personally, but I just don't understand why some PPs seem to think that the mamas worried about abductions or abuse are (or should be) only worried about "stranger abduction?"


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## medicmama (May 5, 2006)

We just started to let our kids play in the back yard alone. They are 7 and 6 yrs old. Our yard is fenced in and our dogs bark at anything. I am very obcessive about what they are doing,so I very frequently cheek what they are doing. they are currently digging a ditch to put in pipes(paper towle tubes).







I can see them from the kitchem windows and living room sliders.

I am usualy out there with them,doing yard work. but not botthering them.


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## USMCbaby (Dec 1, 2002)

My 4 y/o plays in our fenced backyard. It has a 6 ft cedar privacy fence. She can not reach the latch on the gate and our dog is outside with her. While she is outside, the back door is open and I am never very far, in our 900 sqft house. We do not have neighbors close by and if someone walked up to the house, our dog would let me know immediately. Half the time, DD is in and out of the house every few minutes. We have a park acros the street and she always wants to go. I can not drop everything and take her to the park, but I don't see the harm in letting her play on her swingset.

That said, my daughter was molested a year ago. It was by a family friend and I was there that day. I thought I did the right things. I told my daughter the correct terminology for her body parts. I told her that it is not ok for other people to touch her vulva, except when we bathe her or she goes to the doctor. I told her that what her panties covered was not for anybody to touch. Well, when someone she knows and trusts, tries to get her to perform oral sex, that is not something I considered a possibility.

I would give ANYTHING to go back to that day and do things differently, but I don't think that has anything to do with her playing in the backyard.

When we move into our new house, we will have a back yard that is fenced on the left and right, with a stone wall in the back. I think she will be safe there as well. I won't be taking bubble baths with her outside, but I think that if I am within earshot in the kitchen, she is fine.

If she wants to play at someone else's house that is where I will feel uncomfortable. I am going to encourage my kids to play at home and invite their friends over often. I would rather have our house be the place kids like to hang out, ESPECIALLY when they are teenagers. Because I remember how bad I was.


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## vgnmama2keller (Apr 27, 2006)

Aran:

In reply to your post. I was trying to bring up the fact that as women (in the US) we are so programmed to focus on other people hurting us that that is what becomes our obesession in terms of fear of what could happen. We take self defense classes to better keep us safe from strangers, we don't walk alone at night or carry pepper spray to keep us safe from strangers. We walk to our car or our house with our keys in our hands to ward off danger. All of this "fear" and practise of keeping oursleves safe really keeps us from focusing on tools and strategies to deal with sexual abuse or physical abuse from someone we know. My point was about how fear can keep us so confined into a small box whether that fear is founded or not. And my other point is what is a real threat or what has been handed to us labled as threats.

As parents we are told that the "real" threat is stranger danger and we are given tools from the polic department, Oprah, pediatricians, etc to "keep" our children safe. So then we focus on doing all the things right to keep them from being abducted or abused from strangers when they are more likely to be harmed from someone the family knows. Where are the tools to handle that? Don't get me wrong, I know they are out there but they are much harder to find and still a taboo subject in the US to talk about.

I do not believe that anyone that is afraid of their kids getting abducted or assualted or abused are wrong for thinking that at all. I am trying to discuss a broader topic of why are we so afraid as a country of these things happening when statistics show something different?


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

We have a freaky neighborhood kid who shared in friendly neigbhor banter with my dh that he could crush his little dog's head in the fence if he "wanted to"







: Same neighbor also thought it was fun to chuck rocks in to our yard just for the hell of it.

So my son does not play in the yard alone, even though it's fenced. There's really too many blind spots anyway, as the yard extends past the house on both left and right sides.

But if those obstacles were removed and if I had a clear view and he was in earshot, I probably would for short periods of time.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 

I feel sad for a lot of the kids I know who don't have the opportunities to get out and play for hours on end with other kids. It is an essential part of childhood. Playing under an adult's watchful eye just isn't the same. And if we don't give them the confidence as they grow what kind of adults will they be?

The kind of adult that's alive? Not raped, kidnapped, murdered, run over by a car. I could go on and on. Some people don't feel comfortable, for a multitude of reasons, with allowing their children to roam freely with no adult supervision.

How incredibly horrifying it would be if a mother did not listen to that instinct within herself and something *did* happen to her child. If you don't feel the same way, great. But for those that DO, I think it's a really good idea to err on the side of caution.

I also think instilling in our children, especially our daughters, a sense of how to keep themselves safe is critical to their well being. How many women do I see every day paying zero attention to their surroundings? Again, I could go on and on, but point is...high on my list of things to teach my children is the concept of keeping yourself safe.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

The girls have been allowed to play in the yard alone since the youghest was 4yo, and always together. The girls have been allowed to ride their bikes in front of our home up to 6 houses down since last year, they are 7 and 9. This is the first year I have let them go to the park unsupervised together. the park in just accross a field, 3 houses away. They take walkie talkies with them and we are constantly checking in (both the girls and us). This was a big step for my oldest who does not like to be without a parent close by. Niether of them are allowed to go in the front to ride a bike withouth their sister or a close friend down the street, and they are not allowed to go to the park without their sister. They go to the park when we are not busy, when we are just hanging around the house and do not get distracted so we are always on top of them. It has given them both a great deal of confidence. They are proud that we have given this responsibility and take it very seriously. I feel it's important for them. That being said, we live in a suburb type community. If we lived inner city or in a neighbourhood we were not comfortable in, they would not be given this responsibility. There are so many factors that come into play and every parent needs to assess each situation differently based on environment and maturity of the kids.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama*
I feel sad for a lot of the kids I know who don't have the opportunities to get out and play for hours on end with other kids. It is an essential part of childhood. Playing under an adult's watchful eye just isn't the same. And if we don't give them the confidence as they grow what kind of adults will they be?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
The kind of adult that's alive? Not raped, kidnapped, murdered, run over by a car. I could go on and on. Some people don't feel comfortable, for a multitude of reasons, with allowing their children to roam freely with no adult supervision.
<snip>
I also think instilling in our children, especially our daughters, a sense of how to keep themselves safe is critical to their well being. How many women do I see every day paying zero attention to their surroundings? Again, I could go on and on, but point is...high on my list of things to teach my children is the concept of keeping yourself safe.

As I have said in my prior replied in this thread I don't wish to take away anybodies choice.
I myself feel very comfortable allowing my dd to play outside unsupervised. I do support all
of our rights to make choices for our kids and trusting our instincts. I wouldn't tell another
parent that they should be allowing their child unsupervised play if they aren't comfortable
with that.

That said I'm (for the first time reading this entire thread) offended when I read your reply
*"The kind of adult that's alive? Not raped, kidnapped, murdered, run over by a car."*
Maybe I am just ignorant but when my dd is playing outside having the time of her life the
last thing I am thinking is any of the issues you list off. I take from your post that if I am
that kind of ignorant parent that I am allowing for my dd to never make it to adulthood.

Have you ever considered that the females you see not paying attention to their surroundings
aren't used to paying attention cause they always had somebody looking out for them?
That those of us who allow our children to play without a watchful eye could be raising children
who feel confident to look out for themselves? Why does unsupervised play also mean that we
aren't teaching our children to be safe?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
As I have said in my prior replied in this thread I don't wish to take away anybodies choice.
I myself feel very comfortable allowing my dd to play outside unsupervised. I do support all of our rights to make choices for our kids and trusting our instincts. I wouldn't tell another parent that they should be allowing their child unsupervised play if they aren't comfortable with that.

Agreed

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000*
That said I'm (for the first time reading this entire thread) offended when I read your reply *"The kind of adult that's alive? Not raped, kidnapped, murdered, run over by a car."*Maybe I am just ignorant but when my dd is playing outside having the time of her life the last thing I am thinking is any of the issues you list off. I take from your post that if I am that kind of ignorant parent that I am allowing for my dd to never make it to adulthood.

I think the list above stems from several factors from the area someone lives in to what their background experiences are. I think of factors likes raping/kidnapping/murder (though just thing in the back of my head) b/c I am from a law enforcement/Criminal Justice background. That is my field, so it makes sense for me to see those scenarios. I don't project that to me children past the basic lessons I think we all teach our kids about not going with someone they don't know, etc. As far as the fun over by a car...our road dead-ends into apartments. Those apartments have a majority of younger residents with no children who seem to think that a straight stretch of road means put the pedal to the medal. They like to see how fast they can get before they get to the apartments. It is an on-going issue, so my kids (as well as myself) are very aware that these people pay very little attention to kids coming from behind a parked car. Several of the kids on my street have been close to getting hit and one has actually been hit by a car. Again, experience. I don't think someone in an area where these things are uncommon would automatically jump to them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000*
Have you ever considered that the females you see not paying attention to their surroundings aren't used to paying attention cause they always had somebody looking out for them?

I would say this could be the case for some people, but not all. I think it really has to do with women being taught to ignore their instincts to avoid looking weak. Gavin DeBecker's books (The Gift of Fear/Protecting the Gift) are amazing books to read all about the subject.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000*
That those of us who allow our children to play without a watchful eye could be raising children who feel confident to look out for themselves? Why does unsupervised play also mean that we aren't teaching our children to be safe?

I don't think it's about confidence to look out for themselves, as much as it is teaching children to trust their instincts. To follow that gut feeling in all situations. My older three children (11.5, 10, 9) are just now being allowed to play outside as a group without direct supervision and my youngest (5.5) goes with them sometimes in the yard with us checking frequently or out with them. They are being taught to trust their instincts and are very confident in their abilities to look out for themselves. My oldest son will be twelve in June and has expressed to us that he wants a bit more freedom. We discussed it with him and opted to get a cell phone that he can take with him when we are out. He can go to another area of the store or another store in the mall or exhibit at the science center (wherever we are) and he knows to call us if he is moving from his original destination. He opts to call us when he arrives at the destination, when he leaves, and if he is going somewhere else.

I don't think unsupervised play equals not teaching a child to be safe. For our family and neighborhood, it isn't the right choice. I also wonder if it sometimes puts too much pressure (for lack of a better word) on kids to make sure they look out for each other. What if something happened to one of the kids? Would the sibling feel they were at fault? I really don't know if that is the case, but we have tried really hard to avoid the "watch out for your sibling" line of talk with our kids. They are responsible for themselves and know to be there if their sibling needs them, but ultimately they aren't watching each other. It isn't their job to watch their siblings, it's our job.

I realize this example probably doesn't apply to people on MDC, but my neighbor's kids are always watching the younger siblings. I feel bad for them. They are shooed outside with the older kids (13, 11, 9) watching/entertaining the younger kids (4, 3, 3). They get to play with the neighbor kids some, but I don't understand why the parents don't just go out with the kids and let the older three be kids too. They do have an enclosed front yard, so the little ones will be out there without supervision sometimes.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I also wonder if it sometimes puts too much pressure (for lack of a better word) on kids to make sure they look out for each other. What if something happened to one of the kids? Would the sibling feel they were at fault? I really don't know if that is the case, but we have tried really hard to avoid the "watch out for your sibling" line of talk with our kids. They are responsible for themselves and know to be there if their sibling needs them, but ultimately they aren't watching each other. It isn't their job to watch their siblings, it's our job.

We have really tried to impress upon our eldest that she is not emotionally responsible for her younger sister. She takes responsibility for her on herself and we have had many conversations about how different a sister relationship is from a parental one, and that we are ultimately responsible for our youngest, though we think her concern for her sisters well being is beautiful. It's difficult to balance, but we really try to make sure our eldest feels the freedom to just be a kid and a sister, not a responsible parent to her sibling.

This comes from my own experiences with a younger brother, and remembering instances where I was put in charge of him and frightened because I did not feel qualified. We have some neighbors who we get along with very well. They have three children who all recently celebrated birthdays. One 11, 10 and 5. Last summer the then 10 year old was in charge of the youngest (then 4) outside without parental supervision (very safe neigbhorhood fwiw). The youngest would come down to play with our then 5 year old and the oldest would leave him with us, I would accept responsibility for the child directly to the oldest and call the mom to let her know we had him (6 houses away). The eldest would come down every 5 minutes to see if his brother was ok, stopping his play to ease his concerns. There were a couple times then that the youngest went missing when the eldest was in charge of him and the oldest would come do our door asking for him in tears and panic worrying if he was lost in the woods, or down by the creek, or snatched or, or, or (they found him playing in their car)....

Recently, a year later the eldest is suffering from a general anxiety disorder to the point where he has frequent panic attacks. He is going to start professional treatment soon but he suffers little things daily, and takes on burdens when they are not his to take with many fears. There's a lot that goes into GAD and I'm not saying watching his younger brother was the only cause as much of it has to do with his sensitive personality overall but it could be somewhat of a catalyst. Twice this week already their youngest child left his house without telling his parents and the eldest son took on the responsiblity and went immediatly to a panic that his brother had been abducted and it was his fault. Nothing the mom said could ease him.

There definitly is such a thing as too much fear and too much responsibility in children.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 

That said I'm (for the first time reading this entire thread) offended when I read your reply
*"The kind of adult that's alive? Not raped, kidnapped, murdered, run over by a car."*
Maybe I am just ignorant but when my dd is playing outside having the time of her life the
last thing I am thinking is any of the issues you list off. I take from your post that if I am
that kind of ignorant parent that I am allowing for my dd to never make it to adulthood.

Have you ever considered that the females you see not paying attention to their surroundings
aren't used to paying attention cause they always had somebody looking out for them?
That those of us who allow our children to play without a watchful eye could be raising children
who feel confident to look out for themselves? Why does unsupervised play also mean that we
aren't teaching our children to be safe?


Be offended if you must, however the reality is I find it completely unreasonable to expect a young child (mine are 5y7m and 4y6m) to protect themselves from being kidnapped, raped, murdered, and/or run over by a car.

While I absolutely expect to raise children who feel confident in their ability to look out for themselves, protect themselves, not get themselves into situations they cannot handle, etc....that's a learning process that simply is nowhere near complete enough at such a young age to allow completely unsupervised play in our front yard and/or neighborhood.

I will not have to live with myself knowing I was inside doing whatever was more important at the moment while my child was snatched from the front yard. It's not a chance I'm willing to take. I don't expect others to do the same, but I also don't believe it makes me overprotective either.

Of course, even if it DOES make me overprotective, so be it. I'd rather be safe than sorry.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

There's a HUGE difference between letting your kids out in the back yard to play and

Quote:

allowing their children to roam freely with no adult supervision.
.


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## annarborite (Sep 7, 2006)

Yes.

Also, where do you all live that you worry about children being raped and murdered (or even kidnapped)? Bad bike accident? Run over by a car? Yes, I do worry about those, and so we have rules for bike helmets and safe crossing, but the others? Not even worth a second of real worry. I worry more about sunburn and excessive sun exposure, or food poisoning, or car accidents, because those are the dangers that are statistically most likely to affect us.


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
I will not have to live with myself knowing I was inside doing whatever was more important at the moment while my child was snatched from the front yard. It's not a chance I'm willing to take. I don't expect others to do the same, but I also don't believe it makes me overprotective either.

This seems to stray rather a bit from the OP, which specifically asked about a fenced yard. Ditto for the comments about getting run over by a car. Roaming loose is different in my mind than playing in a completely fenced yard.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

We live in a very safe neighborhood, but we don't have a fenced in yard. We will not let our kids play outside alone (they are 2.5 and 4.5). I will run into the house to get something if I need to, but I am only gone for a few seconds. Even when I do that, I make sure I can hear them or see them.

My kids are both very responsible and do not run in the street. My 4 yo son would scream bloody murder if anyone tried to hurt him, but there is no way I feel comfortable not being there when they are outside. Plus, we enjoy being outside as well. They get their space to do what they want and explore. The only rule is that we have to be able to see them.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainyday* 
This seems to stray rather a bit from the OP, which specifically asked about a fenced yard. Ditto for the comments about getting run over by a car. Roaming loose is different in my mind than playing in a completely fenced yard.

I posted exactly what the parameters were that work for our family. Most of the posts I saw discussed children playing in the front yard (which I'm assuming is unfenced), riding bikes down x number of houses, etc. THAT is what isn't going to happen with my children.


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## wifeandmom (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annarborite* 

Also, where do you all live that you worry about children being raped and murdered (or even kidnapped)? Bad bike accident? Run over by a car? Yes, I do worry about those, and so we have rules for bike helmets and safe crossing, but the others? Not even worth a second of real worry. I worry more about sunburn and excessive sun exposure, or food poisoning, or car accidents, because those are the dangers that are statistically most likely to affect us.

I would venture to guess that parents who have had a child kidnapped, raped, and/or murdered would say those situations ARE worth at least 'a real second of worry'.

And perhaps by considering those situations, even though the thought is horrifying, it will limit even the smallest chance of it happening to one of my children. It's certainly worth the 'effort' of sitting in the front yard while they play, as there is nothing more pressing than their safety.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

WRT to the whole kidnapping thing. I agree that that is overplayed in the media, and that the chance is still small. Yet I don't really think that makes me paranoid to take it into account, as long as I'm not duping myself into thinking it's super likely. However small that chance is, I still want to be able to reduce the likelihood. I'm not just going to assume it could never happen simply because statistically it is not likely. They're my kids.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

I feel pretty blessed to live in a small town in HOlland right now. My 7yo and 3yo can roam in the neighborhood (till about 100 yards from home, including a large playground not accessible by car and viewed from about 40 houses). everybody knows them, there are virtually no cars (and they can't go faster than 5mph), there are dozens of kids to play with....

The 3yo doesn't go totally without supervision except in the little "alley cul de sac' behind the house (where there's other kids of the same age doing the same);however, often the kids will be in groups and the older ones watch the young ones.

There is no way for me to do it different. All the kids do this. When I secretly follow them around, they send me back









They designed the area so kids can grow up in freedom, and it actually works quite well. Kids everywhere deserve this.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Oh and about sibling watching: we have the rule that if a responsibility is such the small child could get hurt without you being able to prevent it, it's too big a responsibility. Big kids don't have to watch small ones, not in a public space. But I see every day that when they go in groups, they are so excited by being responsible, they choose to watch them (this is just "watching" as in "hold their hand while crossing the big-kid soccer zone in the playground and when crossing behind the swings")


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wifeandmom* 
I will not have to live with myself knowing I was inside doing whatever was more important at the moment while my child was snatched from the front yard. It's not a chance I'm willing to take. I don't expect others to do the same, but I also don't believe it makes me overprotective either.

Of course, even if it DOES make me overprotective, so be it. I'd rather be safe than sorry.









:


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## ewp11100 (Oct 16, 2003)

I don't have a fenced yard but even if i did my sone is VERY verbal but would not because....

The area we live in is not always the nicest and there are 2 registared sex affenders on the next street over


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ewp11100* 
I don't have a fenced yard but even if i did my sone is VERY verbal but would not because....

The area we live in is not always the nicest and there are 2 registared sex affenders on the next street over









We have the same issue, though I am honestly more worried about the ones I don't know about or haven't been caught than I am the registered ones.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ewp11100* 
I don't have a fenced yard but even if i did my sone is VERY verbal but would not because....

The area we live in is not always the nicest and there are 2 registared sex affenders on the next street over









I have no idea what your particular area is like, but I FREAKED when MIL told me she had looked up our neighborhood to discover that we had THREE registered sex offenders within two blocks of our house. But then I looked them up myself. In my state, they list what the offense is. All three were cases of 18-20 yo boyfriend dating a 16-17 yo girl with angry parents. Of course, I do not know the actual details, but these were not lurking rapists or child molesters. Turned out one guy is someone I know the wife of. The "victim" was her and they have now been married for 8 years....and her parents are still mad......

I also try to remember that MOST offenders never make it to those lists. I try to act as though any unknown person could be on the list. But my dd is allowed to play outside alone in slowly increasing amounts of time in my unfenced, small city, yard. We have very specific rules that dd has yet to violate. One is to yell for me if anyone comes into the yard. She scared the crap out of our poor electric meter reader last month. She yells even when it is someone we know well. The post man, the elderly lady across the street, daddy........


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