# :scared OMFG... you folks are gonna want to see this!!



## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Umm...I was reading my gmail when the ticker at the top flashed something that caught my attention. I surfed over to the site and I was completely and utterly SHOCKED at what I found out.

http://www.stoptherod.net/
-and-
http://www.stoptherod.net/rod-petition.html


----------



## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

uke


----------



## CableGirl (Oct 18, 2006)

that could be one of the most horrible things I've ever seen! How can any parent want to buy a beating device for her/his child??!?!?!


----------



## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CableGirl* 
that could be one of the most horrible things I've ever seen! How can any parent want to buy a beating device for her/his child??!?!?!

Seriously? Because they feel it's important that the child associate the paddle/rod/whatever with punishment, rather than the parent's hands, as would be the case with spanking. It also helps to make the punishment feel more "serious," since it ritualizes the punishment experience.

On the "positive" side, if one could call it that, using a special device may also help prevent punishment from occurring in anger. If you use only that one special device, then presumably going to get it for the punishment ritual helps the parent to calm down and think rationally about the whole thing.

Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration. They often find hitting their children almost as difficult as you or I would, but do it only because they genuinely believe it's what's best for their kids.


----------



## CableGirl (Oct 18, 2006)

I don't believe in hitting at all.. for any reason (outside say a boxing ring). The idea of a device specifically crafted to hit a child is horrific to me. there are other ways of managing misbehavior without resorting to violence.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration. They often find hitting their children almost as difficult as you or I would, but do it only because they genuinely believe it's what's best for their kids.
You are right -- it is a different catagory of parenting, and often it is motivated by a desire to do what is best for the child. Unfortunately, the psychological damage can be worse. Kids can comprehend that their parents make mistakes and blow it sometimes -- that we are human. But to ritualize corporeal punishment and to associate it with love leaves deep and consfusing scars. "_I hurt you because I love you._" Its innapropriate to associate love and physical domination, and yet -- that is what many people routinely exhibit to their children. These messages become so ingrained in us that they continue to affect our relationship in subtle ways. And when we become parents ourselves, its much more difficult to break the patterns because issues of morality and love are all tangled up with concepts of pain and humiliation.


----------



## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Seriously? Because they feel it's important that the child associate the paddle/rod/whatever with punishment, rather than the parent's hands, as would be the case with spanking. It also helps to make the punishment feel more "serious," since it ritualizes the punishment experience.

On the "positive" side, if one could call it that, using a special device may also help prevent punishment from occurring in anger. If you use only that one special device, then presumably going to get it for the punishment ritual helps the parent to calm down and think rationally about the whole thing.

Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration. They often find hitting their children almost as difficult as you or I would, but do it only because they genuinely believe it's what's best for their kids.


If the parent has enough time to calm down and NOT hit out of anger then the parent has enough time to think about the ramifications of hitting their kids. They certainly have enough time to clam down so that they can discuss the issue with their children rationally instead of emotional rage. Modeling how to calm down and deal with problems rationally is incredibly important and valuable for young children, even as young as 1. THERE IS NEVER A NEED TO HIT AN INFANT ! DUH, DUH, DUH!!!!!!!!!!







:


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration. *They often find hitting their children almost as difficult as you or I would*, but do it only because they genuinely believe it's what's best for their kids.

PLEASE do not assume that *I* or anyone else in this forum would have anything whatsoever to do with hitting a child.

And then please read the rules of this board because there is no advocating of physical punishment permitted.


----------



## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
PLEASE do not assume that *I* or anyone else in this forum would have anything whatsoever to do with hitting a child.

And then please read the rules of this board because there is no advocating of physical punishment permitted.









:







:


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
PLEASE do not assume that *I* or anyone else in this forum would have anything whatsoever to do with hitting a child.

And then please read the rules of this board because there is no advocating of physical punishment permitted.

I don't think the PP was advocating physical punishment AT ALL. I think the PP was attempting to explain the phenomenon.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

WOW. I didn't actually believe those things existed.

It's a good thing that has a cushioned rubber handle though. Wouldn't want to make my hand sore or anything.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
PLEASE do not assume that *I* or anyone else in this forum would have anything whatsoever to do with hitting a child.

And then please read the rules of this board because there is no advocating of physical punishment permitted.

Of course she wasn't advocating it. You didn't READ the ads.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration. They often find hitting their children almost as difficult as you or I would, but do it only because they genuinely believe it's what's best for their kids.

This is true. I try to remember this. It really is somthing they feel is best for their kids. Maybe the trend will soon swing the other way.


----------



## CableGirl (Oct 18, 2006)

I still say there is never a justifiable reason for committing any willful act of violence against a child, no matter what the intention.


----------



## kyndmamaof4 (Jul 25, 2006)

OMG...wow







:


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Of course she wasn't advocating it. You didn't READ the ads.

I read the ads. By "advocating" punishment I was talking about this sentence:

Quote:

Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration.
That is justifying the hitting of children. Period.


----------



## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

That people would think that was acceptable to sell, buy, or make is PATHETIC!!!!!!







:














:





































I signed the Pet on there with a "nice" comment.


----------



## Jmo780 (May 3, 2006)

That is SICK! I signed also. I *tried* to be nice









There is no reason for hitting a child. ever.

Maybe the parents who want to actually buy this product, SHOULD, and when they feel the urge to hit their child, they should hit themselves in the head a few times to get the anger out


----------



## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
I read the ads. By "advocating" punishment I was talking about this sentence:

That is justifying the hitting of children. Period.

It isn't. There _is_ a difference. She wasn't saying she agreed with it, or at least I didn't read it that way.


----------



## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

I signed the petition and emailed all the links they provided. I am so horrified that such a device exists. I grew up woth corporal punishment and I agree with the pp about the reasoning behind it. It still was awful and detrimental and confusing, but my parents genuinely believed (and still do) that it is the moral obligation of parents to hit their children. Go figure.







: Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully something will be changed because of it.


----------



## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I signed it.


----------



## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldabee* 
It isn't. There _is_ a difference. She wasn't saying she agreed with it, or at least I didn't read it that way.

I think it is advocating spanking, in the sense that I don't think there is any difference between someone who hits a child and someone who hits a child. All people who hit children whether in anger or not all think they are doing the "right thing." The angry parents aren't thinking, "I'm such a bad parent because I'm angry while I'm hitting." No, they are thinking "This kid is a brat, she needs a whoopin'." The person using the rod is thinking, "This kid is a brat, she needs the rod." Same thing.


----------



## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
PLEASE do not assume that *I* or anyone else in this forum would have anything whatsoever to do with hitting a child.

And then please read the rules of this board because there is no advocating of physical punishment permitted.

Huh? I wasn't advocating physical punishment at all, I was just trying to explain, as best I understood it, that there exist people in the world who genuinely believe physical discipline is important and necessary for their child's development, and that those people might desire such a punishment object for specific reasons having to do with their parenting philosophy.

I'm certainly not one of those people. But I think it's worth trying to understand that people who do advocate physical punishment may well have the best interests of their children at heart, just as those of us who are opposed to physical punishment do. We just happen to believe (as does pretty much every research study on the subject) that they are wrong.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Benji'sMom* 
The angry parents aren't thinking, "I'm such a bad parent because I'm angry while I'm hitting." No, they are thinking "This kid is a brat, she needs a whoopin'."

ummm...I lost it and smacked dd once when she pulled ds2's hair while he was nursing. I wasn't _thinking_ anything - certainly not that she was a "brat" or that she "needed a whoopin". By the time I actually thought _anything_, I was pulling the smack, and my hand had already contacted her.

It is not advocating anything to acknowledge that there are people out there who truly believe that any loving parent _must_ be willing to hit their children. Skueppers didn't say in any way that she agrees with this, or thinks it's acceptable...just that there are people who think this way. And, it _is_ different than striking in anger - she never said "better", just different.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

It is different, and it must be addressed differently if you are in a position to help and support a family.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Huh? I wasn't advocating physical punishment at all, I was just trying to explain, as best I understood it, that there exist people in the world who genuinely believe physical discipline is important and necessary for their child's development, and that those people might desire such a punishment object for specific reasons having to do with their parenting philosophy.

I'm certainly not one of those people. But I think it's worth trying to understand that people who do advocate physical punishment may well have the best interests of their children at heart, just as those of us who are opposed to physical punishment do. We just happen to believe (as does pretty much every research study on the subject) that they are wrong.

skeuppers, I am sorry if I came across as harsh. I truly have a visceral reaction when I see anything that advocates spanking.

This sentence:

Quote:

Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration.
is a justification for spanking. It is stating that people who hit their kids and are "thoughtful" about it are somehow more justified than those who do it out of anger or frustration.

You might not have meant it that way but that is what you wrote. I don't believe that physical punishment is ever justified no matter how well-meaning somebody is.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
You are right -- it is a different catagory of parenting, and often it is motivated by a desire to do what is best for the child. Unfortunately, the psychological damage can be worse. Kids can comprehend that their parents make mistakes and blow it sometimes -- that we are human. But to ritualize corporeal punishment and to associate it with love leaves deep and consfusing scars. "_I hurt you because I love you._"

ITA with that. When I was a teen, my stepdad "attacked" me (it was the same idea as spanking a younger child, he didn't hit me, but physically held me up against the wall by my throat and yelled, etc). Of course I was mad, and disliked him for a while after that. But I also understand that he was reacting on anger (not that it makes it ok, of course). Can you imagine how differently I would have been affected if he had done it in a calm "this is for your own good" type way? OMG I can't even imagine that!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
ummm...I lost it and smacked dd once when she pulled ds2's hair while he was nursing. I wasn't thinking anything - certainly not that she was a "brat" or that she "needed a whoopin". By the time I actually thought anything, I was pulling the smack, and my hand had already contacted her.

yeah that.


----------



## mommaC (Oct 6, 2006)

I cannot even fathom that Dobson advocates this crap, but he writes about it in his book!! Those books on that sight are FRIGHTENING!!! The paddle made to hit INFANTS on bare skin?? ABUSE!!!!! Thanks for leading me to that so I could be informed and sign the petition!! Hitting your kids teaches them to be afraid of you, period. Your lesson gets lost because of the pain you just inflicted on your gift from GOD!!!







:


----------



## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
ummm...I lost it and smacked dd once when she pulled ds2's hair while he was nursing. I wasn't _thinking_ anything - certainly not that she was a "brat" or that she "needed a whoopin". By the time I actually thought _anything_, I was pulling the smack, and my hand had already contacted her.

It is not advocating anything to acknowledge that there are people out there who truly believe that any loving parent _must_ be willing to hit their children. Skueppers didn't say in any way that she agrees with this, or thinks it's acceptable...just that there are people who think this way. And, it _is_ different than striking in anger - she never said "better", just different.

Just because *you* hit one time reflexively or without any thought, that doesn't mean that other parents who get angry and hit are doing it without any thought. Your personal experience doesn't describe the vast majority of people who get mad and hit, IMO. I think people who get mad all the time and hit as their main discipline technique know darn good and well that they will do it again and again and again in the future. They have a lot in common with the "well meaning thoughtfull" parents who also know darn good and well that they will repeat the same abuse in the future. That's not the same as a person who is a GD parent who just snaps one time. So the example you gave doesn't really describe the kind of angry hitters I'm talking about.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Wow. I am as pro-gd and as anti-spanking/punishment as they come. But I do NOT see any value in demonizing parents who are trying to do the best they can, and trying to do right by their kids. Being misled is not the same thing as being a monster. Neither is being stressed out and unsupportive. I refuse to accept that their are large numbers of parents out there who are just cruel and don't give a crap about their kids. I think the vast majority of parents who hit their kids need resources, support, education, etc...


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

blu - love ur username. anyways i wanted to warn u about clicking on those things on gmail. they assume u wanna watch more of those kind of things and so will send u even more ads relating to that subject. not sure how u tell gmail u dont wanna get those ads. but i remember a lot of my friends getting stuff regarding things they had written about in their mail. like single moms not even thinking about online dating were getting online dating ads. so because u have a child htey may be sending u those kids of ads.


----------



## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
This sentence:

(quoting skueppers)
"Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration."

is a justification for spanking. It is stating that people who hit their kids and are "thoughtful" about it are somehow more justified than those who do it out of anger or frustration.

No, actually, that sentence is not a justification for spanking.

It's my opinion that people who spank their children because they've thought carefully about discipline issues and believe physical punishment to be important to their child's development are not really doing the same thing as parents who spank their kids out of anger and frustration -- because their motivations and reasons for doing it are different, and the way they approach their children and talk with their children about it is different. I didn't say that one was BETTER than the other -- merely that they were different. And I certainly wasn't suggesting that I thought spanking was OK, no matter what the motivation.

I do suspect that parents who take a thoughtful approach to discipline are probably easier to reach than parents who don't think much about their parenting techniques. But again, I'm not saying I think what the thoughtful "pro-spanking" parents are doing is less damaging to the kids than what the angry spanking parents are doing -- though I do think it may be damaging in different ways.

I will say that I'm personally not a big fan of parents losing their cool with their kids, whether what they do when they lose their cool is to yell at the kids, engage in passive-aggressive behaviors, hit them, whatever. I think emotional abuse can be just as serious as physical abuse in its long-term effects, and that it behooves us as parents to try our best to be on an emotional even keel. But that's a tangential issue, and is not really related to the issue of physical punishment.


----------



## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Well-meaning, thoughtful people who believe in physical punishment aren't at all the same as people who hit their children in anger or frustration.









: Yeah, they aren't the same; they're sicker! uke Maybe you're not advocating hitting children, but it sure sounds like you're justifying the sickos who practice ritualized violence against children. IMO, it's way more disgusting to have a special implement to hit children with than to just lose it in a moment of anger, not that either one is the right thing to do.

(By the way, does it strike anyone else as almost a violent form of sexual abuse to be practicing a ritual of hitting children's bare skin with a special tool? Especially since this practice is frighteningly similar to what some adults enjoy doing with each other!)

Perhaps these pro-rod parents think that they're doing what's best because they were raised that way too, but by no stretch of the imagination could they be called "thoughtful." If they were thoughtful, they would look beyond their own upbringing and research a better way to handle their children than beating them with a rod.


----------



## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

skueppers, you bring up great points about trying to see the other side. We are privileged to have you contribute to this board. I never for a moment thought you were justifying physical punishment.

I agree with you that a different approach is needed when dealing with people who buy the rod (try grace-based discipline) than for dealing with people who strike in anger (try anger-managment, time-in, count to ten). No question that in both cases children are hit and that's totally unacceptable. But I would approach each person differently.


----------



## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
skueppers, you bring up great points about trying to see the other side. We are privileged to have you contribute to this board. I never for a moment thought you were justifying physical punishment.









:

I really can't believe how hard some of us are coming down on skueppers. Honestly, it's sheer blindness to believe that every person that hits their children is doing it with the same motivation. Some people have anger issues, some people don't know any better, some people do it with "rules"... any way you look at it, the child ends up getting hit, but pointing out that some of these parents may be well meaning people doesn't mean that skueppers is advocating or even mildly defending the ACT of hitting a child.

I've personally known many parents who were just exhausted people, who were trying their best, but just didn't know any better. There are plenty of people who have spanked for that reason, plenty of parents who are pressured by other people to spank and end up doing so, plenty of parents ON THIS BOARD who used to spank and who are massively sorry they ever did. The only result you will get by lumping all those well meaning and YES *thoughtful* parents in with the type who advocate and profit from the sale of "the rod" is you will end up scaring those parents away from a resource that could potentially help them learn an alternative method of discipline.

*sigh*


----------



## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

I signed the petition and emailed all the links. I am originally from this part of the country and it sickens me to think of this company setting up shop there.
Honestly it doesn't matter one whit on the motivation of the parents when it comes to me trying to protect the children. People are not made for hitting, spanking or whipping. Children are people in need of our protection and love. Children are not for hitting and so I will do what I can to stop this abuse. And it is abuse no matter if you do it of love or anger. The sale of this device sickens me and I will do what I can to get it stopped. I encourage all of you not only to sign the petition but to email the links let Kalispell know loud and clear that we as a people will not stand for this and that it is a black spot on the appearance of Kalispell to the rest of the world.


----------



## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

The question of motivation only matters on this thread because someone posed the question. I don't think anyone here thinks that this business is anything but purely disgusting.


----------



## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

this same subject has been discussed much here on MDC

do a search for "baby whipping business" and you should be able to find the discussion.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

In my experience parents who spank in frustration are FAR more willing to explore alternatives than parents who make a deliberate philosophical decision to spank. I would say the vast majority of "converts" to GD here were parents who spanked because they weren't sure what else to do...I have seen very few convert who felt spanking was a moral God directed duty. It happens, but tends to be a much more difficult conversation.


----------



## masherrell (Oct 6, 2006)

I hope no one judges me too harshly. I spank my children. I was very young when I had my son and my mother insisted that I do so (we were living with her at the time). I was not for it in the beginning. She wore on me though and told me that when she kept him he was going to get spanked. Her and my grandmother both said that. I think I kinda gave up after awhile (fighting with them). So now that I've matured in my mothering skills, my son is now 4, and my daughter 2, I am realizing that I was wrong for one alowing someone else to hit my children, but also for hitting them myself. And I am felling miserable about it today especially, I think thta it just hit me reading some the stories on here. I was also tought that I had to show him his boundries and that he needed physical pain to remember that boundry. My question is does anyone know how to stop the habbit of hitting my children. I remember from the moment I let myself spank him that first time the horrible feeling I felt but also the immediate relief I felt. It is truely a sickness I think. I personally allow my frustration to take control over me. I am a christian and I thought all Christians felt the same way untill I read some websites today really expaining the Biblical vew of the rod. I always thought it was a paddle but I feel like God has opened my eyes today and I am in so much remorse for the damage that I have caused my children. I just pray that is not to late to change things now.

I didn't start spanking my son untill my daughter was born. He was only two years old. Our relationship when down hill after that. That bond that we formed those first two years of nursing and co sleeping was broken with one little wack.

I can not express to you how grateful i am to have found this thread.
Thank you all for helping me see again.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Aw, masherell -- I was in a similar position when my son was three! Many of us have "been there." Of course there is hope! Tons of hope.







I'm glad you found this thread too.

Do you think you are brave enough to start another thread about this? Maybe just copy and post what you have just written, but on your own thread, so we don't derail this one too much. LOTS of us will come and help with your specific situation.

Or if you want to work through this via. PM -- we could do that instead or as well.


----------



## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

the people who made that device deserve to be beat with it. (i know that's hypocritical, but I AM PISSED.)

that illustration disturbed me the most, tho. are they really encouraging people who buy the product to hit their infant!!?
















how is this even legal!!??


----------



## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
You are right -- it is a different catagory of parenting, and often it is motivated by a desire to do what is best for the child. Unfortunately, the psychological damage can be worse. Kids can comprehend that their parents make mistakes and blow it sometimes -- that we are human. But to ritualize corporeal punishment and to associate it with love leaves deep and consfusing scars. "_I hurt you because I love you._" Its innapropriate to associate love and physical domination, and yet -- that is what many people routinely exhibit to their children. These messages become so ingrained in us that they continue to affect our relationship in subtle ways. And when we become parents ourselves, its much more difficult to break the patterns because issues of morality and love are all tangled up with concepts of pain and humiliation.

ITA. I know of a child (not personally) that actually has a "loving" relationship with her "whipping rod" or whatever. uke Or at least that how her mother describes it. The mom says the daughter will go get the rod and pet it and tell it she loves it.


----------



## babywolverine (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *urchin_grey*
ITA. I know of a child (not personally) that actually has a "loving" relationship with her "whipping rod" or whatever. Or at least that how her mother describes it. The mom says the daughter will go get the rod and pet it and tell it she loves it.


ugh. that turns my stomach.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

This thread is temporarily closed to new posts pending moderator review.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or concerns.

Thanks for your patience


----------



## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
..It's a good thing that has a cushioned rubber handle though. Wouldn't want to make my hand sore or anything.

*







That's about it eh? Jeez*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
..That is justifying the hitting of children. Period.

*I don't take it like that, I think they're just making a statement for understanding. Guess it's perception.*


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I will post a link to the website in the Activism forum to help spread the word. Also, this particular site is also listed in the GD anti-spanking resources stickie









At this point, I feel we've covered this topic as thoroughly as appropriate within the Gentle Discipline forum's intent:

Quote:

*Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.*
So this thread will remain closed to new posts at this point in time.

Thanks!


----------

