# Total Non-Compliance



## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

First off, we're an unschooling, unconditional parenting household. It doesn't look all bright and cheery because I am myself rather than some contrived version of the ideal mother, but I think we genuinely attempt a family-centered approach with lots of dialogue.

My older son is 8. He does not want to participate in anything at all. Not crafts that I come up with, not the garden, not our CSA, not cooking, not picking up, not anything that I can think of off hand. It's probably an exaggeration, but I am getting a little miffed that every time I ask him to do something, I get this lengthy explanation about how he shouldn't have to. The other day he told me that he shouldn't have to take the compost out because he doesn't buy the food or prepare it and put it in the compost bucket. I was all, "do you eat the food?!?!"

I try to emphasize that we all have to work together to make our lives work, that he is a participating member of this family, and that the work is just part of living and helps us get to the fun. I even tried talking about the work as fun. He told me I was probably just like him when I was little. I told him that I wasn't, that he could ask grandma if he wanted, and that it didn't matter because it made no difference as to whether or not I needed him to help out or not. I'm at the point where I'm saying that he can live on his own if he is so confident about what he should and should not participate in. Which is probably just rude.

I think part of it is this is just him. it's also just me. I talk and talk and talk. Maybe to my detriment. I'm not interested in just cleaning up after everyone though. I do not care to be a doormat. Not at all. Not even if I birthed them and brought them into this world, forcing them to be here. I additionally will be completely opposed to any advice suggesting chore charts, rewards/punishments, or scheduling.

thanks.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Have you read How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen? That book has some good suggestions for how to phrase things in cases like this. One is to use fewer words rather than more. More words is a discussion and a discussion means he has say over whether it happens. But if you stand and say "The compost!" and stand expectently watching him like you're waiting for the bus, that might get more action.

I would highly recommend that book, as that is precisely the kind of thing it talks about.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I have read it, but not in awhile. I'll try the firm expetation route. thx.


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## lisalu100 (Aug 18, 2008)

How do you feel about discussing with him a day/ few days where mum ceases to do anything for him? No playing with him, no sibling intervention, no cooking/laundry etc. If he is onboard, go through with it, for as long as it takes until he admits that he needs/wants you. Then discuss teamwork again.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss* 
I additionally will be completely opposed to any advice suggesting chore charts, rewards/punishments, or scheduling.

So, what are you looking for here? Sympathy? A magic wand? I'm not trying to be snarky but you've out right declared that you won't make your child cooperate by reward/punishment or other means.

His behavior will not change without you making him uncomfortable enough to change. My hubby and I both believe that little hands are needed to help. All hands help make a house a home. To refuse would mean that child was isolated in their room away from family and fun stuff of any kind until they were ready to help. Chores and jobs are huge part of most people's lives. We may not like to do them... but they get done nonetheless. Those who shirk are called losers and other worse things.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Well I do not believe in rewards or punishments and find them to be bizarre solutions for the Gentle Discipline forum, quite frankly. Your snarkiness is unnecessary. As is force or coercion. The first response yielded a good recommendation in changing the discussion.

I am fairly certain that even if I did become a total doormat, the kid would eventually understand the necessity of less-than-constantly-desirable work through living in the world. As an unschooler, I firmly believe in example as a solid method of learning. My attitude may need adjustment, however.


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## bonamarq (Oct 18, 2006)

I hear your frustration and I empathize - I admire your choices even though I do not choose the same for my family....hopefully you will get more solid advice from BTDT families although from what I see here this is not entirely unusual for that age -

But I'm with you in the "let's honor your authentic self" while still being respectful of the whole family...

here is a perhaps wild suggestion to be completely dismissed if you like...

If I were you I would have a family meeting (perhaps you already do, have one more) Lay out your concerns and frustrations and let ds know that if he really wants to go that route of "me myself and I" are the only ones that I need to concern myself with, then make him fend for himself to as great an extent possible - you sort of allude to this in your post about making him live on his own - you still need to give the roof over his head but what would happen if you stopped doing anything else for him for at least a while (laundry, cooking, or going out of your way in anyway) - I personally don't know if I could stand this even for just a week and not knowing your situation or family it might be totally inappropriate????? If I ever felt pushed to this point I would probably let ds know that it wasn't a permanent thing - "let's try this for x amount of time " and come back and reassess... then discuss how we all felt living this way (I'm guessing not very good and the point is for this to be a learning experience about the importance of team work - not a snarky punishment - although it might sure seem like that when going through it -

I admittedly may be way off base and out of line (so let the flames begin) but it could prove to be a valuable lesson for the right kid/situation - others could be total disaster and only develop more resentment - which is why IF you try this I would try and have a positive family mtg first...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Also, it can help to think of it as, "How do we set this up as a habit" rather than "how do I force this to happen." It's just a change in mindset, but I guess the idea is that if he doesn't get up and do it on his own, I would have him do it with me in an attempt to get him into the habit rather than just do it on my own. If he is involved in it to at least some extent often and regularly enough, it will feel normal to him and it shouldn't involve so many fights. It's just hard to start up with the "create a habit" mindset at 8.

I did it that way with my 8-year-old but I started when she was like 3 or 4. Instead of setting up a chore chart or anything, I would just say, "time to do X" and then do X with her, and eventually I could say "time to do X" and she'd just do it. But it took a long time and I started younger.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Why is this forum always filled with that _zing_ at the end that makes folks feel crummy about their past efforts, which, incidently, remain unknowns?


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

I'm confused as to why not chore charts + lots of praise? Some personalities respond better to encouraged independance rather than being told what to do.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I consider charts and excessive praise to be coerced independence, not encouraged independence.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Playful parenting is working for us right now. Also, have you told him how you feel? Not as a punishment, just so that there's no bad stuff out there? "I feel like you are not treating me like a person, and that makes me sad."

Quote:

I'm at the point where I'm saying that he can live on his own if he is so confident about what he should and should not participate in. Which is probably just rude.
I don't think it's rude. It's honest. Why should he get to be a freeloader? I told my three-year-old that she benefits from her own input, that the more we share and divide labor, the better off we all are, and if she doesn't want to share, she can do it all herself. But then we're not going to help her, either. Of course for her, that meant just making meals and doing laundry (she was not prepared to, LOL) but for an eight-year-old you could ask him to do more. Just simply, without anger, "If you're not interested in participating, then you will not benefit from our participation, either."

Now, you said you're into unconditional. I guess this is conditional. But if you're truly UNconditional, then at the end of the day, he's got a pretty nice deal here, and if it were me (I was *that* child that didn't do chores...) I just... would keep the deal. LOL. Sorry. Some people are users, and it took me a LONG time to realize why I needed to help. Like... maybe the end of adolescence? I'm not sure if you're willing to wait that long.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

In a relationship with such a power imbalance as exists between a parent and a child (however much we might not want to see or use or abuse that power, our kids would starve/freeze/die without our caring efforts) how does one ensure one is only encouraging and not coercing? What does the difference look like?


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

I dont have any advice, only commiseration for the fact that I also explain and talk excessively to my children. I feel they deserve the why and how of everything. I exhaust myself sometimes. It drives DH crazy. He thinks its annoying. As a child, no one ever explained anything to him. He was just told what to do.
I dont know, it just comes naturally to teach them I have to explain.
I will say though, my 7 yr old doesnt listen to me some of the time.
DH says its because I treat her like a peer and that I dont discipline her firmly.


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

You mix a lot of things together. If he doesn't want to participate in crafts, that's his right, right? Are there things that he likes to do? Do you participate in them?

Do you yourself see work as fun? Do they witness you having fun with household stuff? I rarely have fun while cleaning







, but I try to make it fun...I won't tell them that housework is fun, though, as it isn't true for me, most of the time.

Do you NEED his help with cooking, or you feel it is a good activity for him to be involved in? I'm sure he senses the difference.

Is there anything that relates to his life more directly? I can see an 8 year old not really seeing the connection between compost and cooked food. And then getting embarrassed and argumentative when the obvious connection is showed to him.

Do you ask him when you really need help, or is it a matter of principle that he needs to help? There was not a single instance that my kids refused to help when they saw me struggling--they'd grab the extra grocery bag out of my hand if I need to get my keys, or entertain the baby when I'm on the phone for something important, and so on. Often without asking.

When I ask for help, I do expect compliance. If their involvement is optional, I phrase the question accordingly, and I am perfectly okay with them not pitching in. We don't operate on the chores principle, so they don't have any daily tasks to complete. I probably ask them less than an average parent. But when I really need help, they are eager. They also offer their help often. Frankly, I keep declining cooking help, except from my 2 yo, as she is very insistent.









Lastly, does he see you as an authority figure? He might, despite your efforts to the contrary. You do ask him to do things, and are then unhappy when he doesn't, even if it simply crafts. In his mind you are the boss. Considering you do expose him to political activism, he might be modelling you in his resistance to authority.

I also think that this might be a phase.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss* 
Why is this forum always filled with that _zing_ at the end that makes folks feel crummy about their past efforts, which, incidently, remain unknowns?

I'm sorry. I didnt' mean it that way. I have a bad headache and I'm obviously having trouble wording things well. I didn't mean you hadn't done that at all, just taht efforts in that regard don't work as well at 8, and when I've tried to create a habit with my 8-year-old at her age now, it doesn't go nearly as well as those things I started with her when she was much younger.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I did it that way with my 8-year-old but I started when she was like 3 or 4. Instead of setting up a chore chart or anything, I would just say, "time to do X" and then do X with her, and eventually I could say "time to do X" and she'd just do it. But it took a long time and I started younger.

Yep, I never did charts or sticker rewards or anything like that. But at an early age, I would yell "job" or "all hands on deck" and they come running to be helpful. My teens sometimes still wait to hear me ask for help. But when asked they pitch in without shirking or being ugly.

Oh, and I do consider time-outs to be gentle discipline. I grew up in the belt 'm and spank 'm bible belt. My kids have been spared that but I do insist on reasonable obedience to our parental authority.

Consensual living may be fine for some; but the few times I've tried it my family descends into complete chaos rather quickly. It is not a choice for us any longer.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

If memory serves you are an immaculate housekeeper. Sometimes, when I look at the mess that is my home, I think of you and feel a sense of awe!

So, my first thought regarding housework was that for your children it has been done for them by someone who is extraordinarily good at doing it, who does it better than 99% of the people I know, who enjoys it and does it masterfully. I think your kids must know their help is not strictly necessary in order for the home to look incredible. All they need to do is get out of the way and watch the magic happen.

When I read your post I found myself wondering if your son is generally the type who wants to do a thing as well as others or not at all. Perhaps he knows that you are really good at keeping the home nice and is incredulous at the idea that he should get involved.

We started doing chores when ds was 7. Until then I did everything for him. Ds is an only child and at that point both his parents worked from home while he was unschooled. Even though I'm not a great housekeeper, between the two adults, it was easy to get it all done. Ds did not really NEED to help in order for the home to be nice. I began to see the downside of that approach and so we changed. The main thing was that it became a family activity. Everyone set aside time and then we made a game of it. We had little chore cards, or chore wheels, and we picked tasks and did a 'ready set go' type approach. Ds liked checking off boxes to show what he had done. I can't remember the details now. I think we had a family reward or something too. Ds did like rewards so there might have been a treat involved with this at first, I honestly can't remember. At first we just let him pick his chores and resisted the urge to 're-do' his work later. Then we would draw cards from a bag and do what task was on the card. The focus was on the importance of teamwork and how much we valued his being part of the family team. We just focused on building up that feeling for a long time.

Eventually I could just ask and he would do a chore. But for maybe a year or two he needed it to be a family event in order to get himself psyched up about it.

Also, I think children with parents who can and do get it all done without much effort, are especially prone to growing up disconnected from value of their own contribution. So, building up that sense of family, of being a team, of delegating a task to a child, and the child gradually seeing over time that this is their own domain, nobody will go back later and fix it better than they did, is important.

Hope some of that helps, maybe not?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Have you tried talking to him about how you feel when he doesn't help out? Explaining that it hurts your feelings when you refuse to help might get through to him- that cleaning up is worth it, not because having a clean house is important to HIM, but because it's important to you and he cares about you.

Sit down with him and try to brainstorm ideas about "making housework fair". Are there any chores he wouldn't mind doing, or that he'd feel good about himself if he did? Does he need you to let go of some of youre "housework perfectionism" before he'll be willing to help more? Would he be more motivated to help if you turned cleanup into a game, or if he had some kind of outside reward for helping?

I know you said you didn't want any advice about sticker charts, reward/punishment, or scheduling, but sometimes you need to re-evaluate your ideals and do what actually works for your kid, not what you'd hoped to do. I had a sticker chart for DS for a while- he earned 1 or more stickers for various household tasks, and at the end of the month (or however long it took to fill up the chart) I paid him 5 cents for each sticker on the chart.

I *hated* that chart. I had to keep track of all the work he did and decide how many stickers to give each job, and take time out of "real work" to put up stickers. But, when he was about 7.5 to 8.5, he *needed* it. He needed to see a concrete reward for each thing that he did- the weeks he did less work he felt bad that he'd done less (and earned less money) and he tried harder to do more work next time. It also helped me keep things in perspective when maybe one day he'd do practically nothing, but then the next he'd do several huge jobs and more than make up for the "lazy days."

After a while, he stopped needing the chart. It stopped working- he whined more about how many stickers he'd get for each one, and start doing some mental calculations "nah, that job isn't worth 15 cents. I won't do it." So I switched him to a straight allowance and now I tell him what needs to be done and he mostly does it.

The sticker chart helped him get into the habit of doing chores and doing them cheerfully. He just wasn't developmentally ready to do that without some kind of outside reward- but he's since outgrown that need and we're closer to how I'd always envisioned the household working.

I'm not saying that you HAVE TO do sticker charts, or that there's no other way to get kids to do chores. I just want you to open up your mind and consider all kinds of "parenting tools," even the ones you thought you'd never use. Most techniques used by "non GD parents" can be used respectfully, and sometimes are just what a child needs for a specific situation at a specific period of time.


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## rainbringer (Dec 2, 2007)

Would it help to offer him a choice? "I need some help - would you rather take the compost out or sweep the floor?" Or maybe he needs a few minutes to finish up what he is doing and switch gears.

Maybe there is something he would like to be in charge of - keeping the books organized and dusted, changing light bulbs when they go out, meal planning or something like that?

Another thought - you are having trouble thinking of any way he helps with the household work - it might help to spend a few days really noticing anything he does that is helpful. There may be more than you think, even if it is small like putting his laundry in the clothes hamper.


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## Plaid Leopard (Sep 26, 2003)

I agree with others that this could be partly a developmental issue, as well as a personality issue.

We have struggles in our household, with some days being better than others. I do try to stress that as we are all part of the family, we all need to contribute to make things run smoothly and make the home nice for everybody. Also that it is not fair that one person does all or most of the work. I think that it is a difficult concept for some kids. My 11yo gets it but my 6yo does not. My 9yo sort of gets it. My 2yo wants to help with everything whether I want him to or not!

I also agree with Ruth that sometimes you have to explore options that are not part of your parenting philosophy. Sometimes when my kids want to watch a video or do some other activity, I ask that they do a quick clean-up or complete their chores beforehand. They usually do this quite happily. You may not like the idea of rewards, but I don't see it as totally arbitrary or coercive. In fact, I often use the same system for myself. I want to go on the computer, but I tell myself that I have to fold the laundry first, and my reward will be 15 minutes on MDC. If we want to be able to enjoy our leisure time we need to get the other stuff out of the way first.

I also expect my kids to set the table before meals, and a meal is not served until the table is ready and we have plates to eat off of and utensils to eat with. I'm happy to prepare their meals, but I am not running a restaurant. Everyone needs to pitch in and help.

My kids have also ASKED for a chore chart. They like the idea of knowing what needs to be done and when they should do it. I expect the older two to help with washing clothes, hanging them to dry , folding and putting them away, sweeping the floor, setting the table, and preparing one meal a week. Generally they will have one major chore a day. The 6yo is expected to put away his own toys, books and clothes - but we are still working on that. They don't get rewards for completing their chores, other than the satisfaction of knowing that they have helped out.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

Compliance implies some yielding or obedience, right? This also implies that you have expectations. Since you don't want a reward or punishment deal, how about writing down your expectations. Then having a family discussion about it, which will help him understand the familial implications. The result would be to split the list up somehow (for all members), giving him clear behavioral expectations. Within that "limit", he can choose when he completes the task (depending on imminence).


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Some helpful replies, thank you.

Yeah, expectation and the wish for obedience creeps in there, doesn't it? Hrm. He actually does do a lot. He puts his laundry away, his dirty laundry away, brushes his teeth, dresses himself, will take his dishes into the kitchen but so far, it's all mostly for him. We haven't seen the leap to stuff for all of us. He has never been interested in doing things together, but he was more interested a year or more ago. Dunno. Maybe his independence in age growth has made him more, well, emotionally independent and thus desirous of things that ain't got nothin' to do with us. I do really wish he would take on a job though without all the freaking attitude.

We did have a family meeting. I'm not certain it was productive. I got another book recommendation from a friend. I may try that.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss* 
Maybe his independence in age growth has made him more, well, emotionally independent and thus desirous of things that ain't got nothin' to do with us.

Or maybe he needs a _real_ job. Something that wouldn't get done at all if he doesn't do it. This is the age that in many societies children are asked to take on real responsibilities and are seen to have some measure of responsibility and culpability. What can your son do that's needed and important? And that will be missed (but not essential) if he doesn't do it?

Or a completely different tactic: Can you make some things a family event? Every night after dinner we do 15 minutes of chores. Small amount of time. I put chores on popsicle sticks, the kids draw them out and have to do that chore. Very often they're stuck picking something up that they didn't take out. My mantra during that time has always been: I didn't ask if you made the mess, I asked you to help. We're part of a family, and that is what families do. Other people are helping keep the house clean for you, and you're helping me here."

Now clearly this is probably much more top-down than you're willing to approach things, but I think reinforcing that it takes a group effort to keep a house running might help.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss* 
I do really wish he would take on a job though without all the freaking attitude.

Sorry that's the age. Don't be afraid to call him on his attitude. I do for my kids and often ask them to rephrase. (And occasionally, they'll call me on mine.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
In a relationship with such a power imbalance as exists between a parent and a child (however much we might not want to see or use or abuse that power, our kids would starve/freeze/die without our caring efforts) how does one ensure one is only encouraging and not coercing? What does the difference look like?

I wonder about this too, and I wonder if your son is getting old enough to recognize the power imbalance? Is it really possible to be older, more competent and have control over the family resources and not be coercive? Is your son reacting to that?

These are genuine questions. I'm not trying to put your method down (though I will say I can't parent this way). But I have to think that unschooling and non-coercive parenting has got to look very different at different ages. Has your son moved onto a different developmental stage?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
sometimes you need to re-evaluate your ideals and do what actually works for your kid, not what you'd hoped to do.

I agree wholeheartedly. I too don't like rewards. Guess what? I've got a child who was highly motivated by them. I've used them sparingly and for things that I needed to change (toileting only actually). But without that, I swear I'd be still wiping my 9 year old's bottom!


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## amberskyfire (Sep 15, 2007)

How do you feel about allowing him to earn his own money? I know you don't particularly believe in rewards, but I always saw chore money as less of a reward and more of a tool to allow kids of a certain age to feel proud and responsible for the things that they do.

I didn't use allowance with my stepdaughter. I don't even like the word, actually. It has very strong overtones of control. At around six and older, kids like to be able to have goals that they feel are beneficial either for emotional or physical reasons. Earning money in our house is one way I do that. I personally feel that it teaches children responsibility as well as pride for their work and the value of money. For children who are not old enough to have a job, not having money to be able to get the things that they want can be frustrating, especially when they see their parents just walk into a store and (in their mind, at least) just get whatever they want whenever they want it.

What I did was make a list of chores which I framed and hung in the kitchen. Next to each chore, I put a price. For example, $.10 for feeding the cat, $.25 for wiping down the counter, $2 for scrubbing the bathtub, $.75 for vacuuming the living room, etc.

The chores were not mandatory, but I refused to buy things (except for birthdays and Christmas) she asked for or give money to my DSD for no reason. She had to earn her money. The way I see it, I go to work to earn the money I need to get the things I want. If I don't go to work, I don't get my paycheck. It's the same in our house. If you don't want to do your chores, fine. You won't earn any money. You won't get what you want.

It was a really big motivator for my DSD and she actually got excited about doing chores. She would even ask to do extra things so that she could afford certain things that she wanted. She was proud of doing a good job and she was proud of the money that she earned. It taught her the value of money and got her interested in saving.

I guess some people see it as a reward, but I see it more like having a job and feeling grown-up and responsible. You do a good job, you earn something for yourself. For the parent, doing the chore is rewarding. You clean the living room and you feel really good about it because your house looks nice. A child does not have the same feeling of pride from having done a mandatory chore, so it isn't the same for them. I personally feel that they need to find some way to be proud of what they have done in order to learn from the experience. Being proud of just having a clean living room comes when they get older and have a space of their own.

So, to simplify, this is how I personally feel (and everybody feels differently) how kids see it from their point of view.

CHILD DOES NOT EARN THEIR OWN MONEY
- parents make all decisions and I feel powerless
- parents can choose whether or not to do a chore but I have no choice
- I have no control over myself and what I do
- I have no physical or emotional positives for doing the chore, unlike parents
- I am being told responsibility, but not feeling it

CHILD EARNS THEIR OWN MONEY
- I feel as though I have control over myself
- I feel as though I can make my own decisions which makes me feel positive about making the right choice
- I am able to get my own money for the things I want without having to ask and be denied
- I feel personal pride for what I have accomplished
- I have a choice of chores I would most like to do


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

What about simply saying "I need help making dinner, how do you want to help me? This is what needs to be done; abc, which would you like to do?"

And if he balks.

"Do you want to eat?"

And if he says yes, then urge him to help. "I can't do this by myself. I really need your help. Is there some reason why you won't help me?"

If he defiantly says no, then don't feed him.

Not sure if that jives with your philosophy or not, but that would be my approach.

V


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I think it's so funny that I used to post here and everyone was all "that's coercive, you can't do that!" and now I'm saying I refuse to be coercive and getting challenged on the matter. Weird.

Violet, that's my attitude already. We do challenge each other. Yesterday was just one of those days.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think people try and reflect contrasting ideas when a parent states an approach is not working.

On the other hand sometimes nothing needs to change; it is a phase and will pass. In that case it can help to just put it out there, read replies, and decide whether you see anything germaine to your situation.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

You're right. It's all food for thought. Discipline is one of those highly contentious, deeply personal issues that I always cringe about advice on. I think most folks do.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I'm sorry annakiss, i really wasn't trying to challenge you or be snarky, it's a genuine problem i think, what IS the difference between coercion and encouragement, and what is the difference to the CHILD? Is your son seeing your encouragement as coercive, or is what you think of as encouragement so mild he really needs something closer to what you would consider coercive to "get" what you're asking of him?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Oh I think it's probably all the same stuff I always have struggled with. I don't really know how to be. I don't know what the difference between coercion and encouragement and the simple stating of my needs is. I don't think that you can necessarily tease it all out when you get right down to it, particularly if you're going to be honest without being one of those naturally gentle and always happy people. Come to think of it, I know folks like that who are way more coercive than I am.

I try to look at it all as a conversation, but certainly there's a lot of "I'm responsible for you and I need to accomplish xyz _now_, so get to it." I'm not sure if that can be helped. The problem is, and I'm not sure if I set this up (which is probably at least partially true) or if it's just he and I's personalities (also probably partially true), but at the end of the day, I get tired of arguing. For example, he'll want something and I'll say no. Then he'll launch into an argument about why he should get it and I'll enbd up in an argument with him about why my answer is still no. Even when I try to get out of it and say, "no is my answer. Stop asking," he doesn't. He just goes and goes.

I'm not certain that all of that is a bad thing. It's just annoying. And the attitude of 8 is difficult, but on the other hand, he was always this. It's just him. He will make a totally awesome, confident adult. He's also had a lot to struggle with and right now he has this massive piece of metal in his mouth, so I know he's sort of mildly irritated a lot.

I'm trying to think through it all and see if there is a possible solution that would work for us, but I'm really not certain that anything would change. I think that doing more focused activities together would probably help us all get along a bit better. To some degree, I should probably just let some of it go. When he does clean up, like you suggested, heartmama, I do find myself correcting as both the children inevitably leave small things out. I should just applaud the effort, I suppose. Being a hardass about it does me no real good, but creates the power struggle anew. hrm. hum.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

My DD argues with me like that too. She's only 4, but MAN can she reason! Recently i've been writing "no" on a piece of paper and giving it to her and telling her she can go on saying why i should say yes, but this is my final answer. It sometimes reduces the arguing, but then i cease engaging with it after the paper is handed over. I can only imagine how much harder 8 is going to be by comparison.









I too think my kid is going to be a GREAT adult, but getting her there is already wearing me thin.

You could roll your correction and praise into one? - "wow, this place looks great now you're almost done, just those few cars/paintbrushes/whatevers to go!"?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

now I'm saying I refuse to be coercive and getting challenged on the matter. Weird.
I hope my post didn't come across as challenging you. I really wanted to do total non-coerscion thinking it might solve some problems we were having with rewards (we got to rewards for a reason, though). I just did not find anything, hear any suggestion, that we hadn't tried.

FWIW I don't think chore charts are coerscive, though. I have a day planner that I fill out in advance. So does DH. It's not coerscion. We like reminders and to be able to tick things off when we're done. At least, I do. I don't know if "enjoy" describes how he feels, LOL. Your son is old enough to make his own to-do list... can you dole out chores in a family meeting and he makes his own to-do list to put on the fridge?


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

This sort of reminds me of a thread a little while back in Parents as Partners. A wife was frustrated and upset because her DH wasn't helping out enough around the house. Your situation seems similar. Basically, it sounds like you want him to want to do what you want him to do, without a need to push, reward or praise. The problem is that you are raising an independent little boy with his own independent thoughts. You don't want the same things and you don't have the same internal rewards. If a clean house isn't important to him, then you will never convince him to clean the house just for the sake of having a clean house. That's just a lower priority for some people (like me!) and that's okay. So if he's going to clean up for you, then he's going to be cleaning up FOR YOU. That may be his only motivation. So maybe you can communicate to him that this is for you, a favor for you, and then communicate your appreciation when he does it. I guess I feel like there's a difference between praise (Good boy! You did what I asked!) and appreciation (It makes me feel so good when you clean up! Thank you!). Cleaning is not one of my strong points, and I am much more responsive to my DH when he appreciates my efforts than when he criticizes them, because really the main reason I am making the effort at all is for him.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I don't have an 8yo so feel free to ignore, but I'm wondering if there is something you can do to make him feel more invested in the running of the household. Is he being asked to do boring chores without having any say in the fun decision-making type chores? For me personally I'm a lot more interested in cooking if I get to decide what to make. I'm a lot more interested in tidying if it's a room I decorated and that I take pride in. Just thinking you could might be able to adapt this idea in an age appropriate way.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss* 
For example, he'll want something and I'll say no. Then he'll launch into an argument about why he should get it and I'll enbd up in an argument with him about why my answer is still no. Even when I try to get out of it and say, "no is my answer. Stop asking," he doesn't. He just goes and goes.

A thought for this issue: What if you told him: I need not to talk about this right now. If you're willing to write your reasons out clearly so I can read them, I'll be willing to read and discuss them in an hour. My answer will still probably be no, but you can try to be as persuasive as you can."

It might not work for long, but it might really help him hone his argumentation skills!

Also, if he's a verbal processor, he may need to talk/write about these issues to work through them. I'm related to several of those, and as an introvert, I find them highly annoying. They're not intentionally annoying me, it's just that when I'm done with an issue, I.am.done.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss* 
When he does clean up, like you suggested, heartmama, I do find myself correcting as both the children inevitably leave small things out. I should just applaud the effort, I suppose. Being a hardass about it does me no real good, but creates the power struggle anew. hrm. hum.

My mom had to teach my dad to accept less than perfection when the kids were helping. She pointed out to him that if he directed each and every movement (a) they weren't going to learn how to do it themselves and (b) it was going to tick them off so they didn't want to help. It was really really hard for my dad to let go, and he didn't always succeed. But I do have fond memories of helping him roof the garage and paint the house, so he must have come a long ways by the time I got there.


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## lucysmom (Oct 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *puddle* 
This sort of reminds me of a thread a little while back in Parents as Partners. A wife was frustrated and upset because her DH wasn't helping out enough around the house. Your situation seems similar. Basically, it sounds like you want him to want to do what you want him to do, without a need to push, reward or praise. The problem is that you are raising an independent little boy with his own independent thoughts. You don't want the same things and you don't have the same internal rewards. If a clean house isn't important to him, then you will never convince him to clean the house just for the sake of having a clean house. That's just a lower priority for some people (like me!) and that's okay. So if he's going to clean up for you, then he's going to be cleaning up FOR YOU. That may be his only motivation. So maybe you can communicate to him that this is for you, a favor for you, and then communicate your appreciation when he does it. I guess I feel like there's a difference between praise (Good boy! You did what I asked!) and appreciation (It makes me feel so good when you clean up! Thank you!). Cleaning is not one of my strong points, and I am much more responsive to my DH when he appreciates my efforts than when he criticizes them, because really the main reason I am making the effort at all is for him.

This seems very insightful.


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