# Exhausted mommies support thread?



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I know there are many of us out here...

DD is almost 17 months old and the sleep thing is just not happening. We have to drive her or stroll her to sleep for every nap and for bedtime. If we don't she will stay up indefinitely, becoming crankier by the minute. She literally has never ever in her life laid down and gone to sleep. Sometimes she can be rocked to sleep. Rarely nursed to sleep. She needs Big Time parenting to sleep.

BUT that's no big deal...if she would just *stay* asleep. <sigh>

On another board someone was complaining about their 8-month-old who still wakes twice in the night. I was like, I hate you.







For 17 months (plus 9 months of pregnancy when I *thought* I wasn't sleeping well, little did I know) I have been becoming progressively more sleep deprived.

I am hitting a wall. This week DD had a fever and diarrhea so things were worse than usual, but they are always pretty bad although occasionally there's a night where I *kinda* feel rested in the morning so I convince myself better times are a-comin'. But they don't.

I am literally falling apart in some ways. I am so tired I can barely function. My place is a mess and I DON'T CARE. I am losing interest in doing anything besides sitting at the computer. But I have been clinically depressed before and this ain't it. This is SLEEP DEPRIVATION.

I don't think I've had a good night's sleep in well over 2 years. My sleep is constantly interrupted and never comes in chunks of more than 1.5-2 hours.

Anyway, I don't think things will be changing any time soon. But I am getting to the point where I resent DH because he gets to sleep on the couch. I am MAD at DD when she wakes in the night. I am NOT the mommy I want to be during the day. I am miserable.

Just want some commiseration. I feel like I've fallen into the Pit of No Sleep.

Anyone else??


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

No other exhausted mommies tonight? Well, hopefully you are all sleeping.









It's gotten so bad here I am afraid to go to bed 'cause I know I'll just be waking up in 15-40 minutes.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)




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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Thanks for the hugs, tatermom!









I am feeling kinda betrayed by Dr. Sears (who is actually going to be Nora's ped soon, yay) because his book was the one that made me smugly believe that if I just co-slept and nursed on demand I would get good sleep, with my DD cuddled up content beside me...hmmmmm...

I know it's true for a lot of people (it must be) but it hasn't been true here. There have been better times, though. I need to remember that I am going through a bad patch. When I go through a bad patch w/ sleep I tend to forget that it ever was better. And then when it gets better I tend to forget it ever was THIS bad.









I see from the poll that I am not alone although no one else wants to post...good grief, do the !Kung San go around sleep deprived for years at a time? What are we co-sleeping Westerners doing wrong?







:


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

ours situation is not as bad as yours but I am exhausted, all the time.

DD was a wonderful sleeper up til 8 months. then she'd wake 2-3x per week and want to eat and then go right back...no biggie. this evolved slowly into waking every night, then multiple times per night, and now it's just....

I also have to EP, so even if she sleeps a good chunk like 10-2, I'll be up until 1 to pump, then basically as soon as I lay my head down she wakes up. Last night she was up from 2-4. So I went to bed for the first time at 4 am.

she's miserable when she's awake in the middle of the night, just crying like it's the end of the world. I'm not the mama I want to be at those hours either. sometimes it's like, I have ideas of what to do to get her back to sleep, but I"m too tired to try them so I just lay there holding her while she cries. then in the morning I absolutely CANNOT get up and I lay there handing her one toy after another to play with in bed until her whining becomes persistent.

this week I've tried limiting her to one nap but it's usually impossible. when she's tired she's tired and she was asleep in the mei tai at Whole Foods the entire time, no matter what I did. I knew I'd be screwed tonight and I'm just waiting to hear "waaaahhhh!!!"' why bother going to sleep? it will just be that much harder when she wakes up.


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## jlwagner (May 2, 2006)

I'm definitely with you. My ds is 11 mos old and I'm lucky if I get more than a 2 hr stretch at night. He has always had to be parented to sleep - we put him in the sling and bounce him on the exercise ball. He, too, has never ever fallen asleep on his own. He stopped nursing to sleep when he was about 5 mos old so now we have our bouncing ritual for every nap and every night. I'm getting a little worried, though, because eventually (soon!) he's going to be to big for the craddle hold in the sling; then I don't know what we'll do. I feel like he's slowly weaning me off of sleep.







:

Anyway,


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

Nora's Mama ((((HUGS))))

My dd wakes twice each night, but I am feeling the cumulative effects of night time nursing and I'm an older mama too, so I feel really, really, tired. Just tired. I think your questions about Westerns and co-sleeping and the "myth" of better sleep for all are good ones, but I don't think you'll get much response here on MDC. Maybe you can ask Dr. Sears when you see him (if you can remember to







) and get back to us!


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama* 
Nora's Mama ((((HUGS))))

My dd wakes twice each night, but I am feeling the cumulative effects of night time nursing and I'm an older mama too, so I feel really, really, tired. Just tired. I think your questions about Westerns and co-sleeping and the "myth" of better sleep for all are good ones, but I don't think you'll get much response here on MDC. Maybe you can ask Dr. Sears when you see him (if you can remember to







) and get back to us!


Oh, I certainly will!







I am curious to see if his views are more nuanced in person. I also might be seeing one of his sons (he has 3 in practice with him) and it's possible their views are slightly different, although I think they are all big proponents of AP, how can they not be when dad coined the term?









Thanks for the replies everyone - from the poll it certainly seems that being sleep deprived is more common than not!







to everyone.

oh, and Nora woke at 5 AM this morning - BUT her dad took her out and let me sleep!! I had 4 hours of delicious sleep and although I still feel tired







I am feeling a little more _human_ than I did last night. I mean, it has gotten to the point where I am really not functioning well. So a 4-hour "nap" really helps!!


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## Hollin (Jun 26, 2005)

I'm so glad I saw this thread. I feel like it's talking about so much of what I've been feeling. ITA with the Dr. Sears thing. If co-sleeping really lets you get more sleep, how come I get woken up 10 times on a typical night while my crib-sleeping friends complain about being woken up twice. I also wonder about how women in cultures where co-sleeping is the norm do it. And in a lot of those cultures they have to work so hard during the day too how do they do it with so little sleep?

I hate going to bed and I just wish morning would hurry up and come every night because I hate sleeping in 30 minute chunks so much. I also get so ticked at my son at night. Sometimes at 2 am I feel like, "why did I even want kids?" which is a horrible way to feel. I feel like I can handle most anything during the day, but at night I'm a wreck.


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## MotherWhimsey (Mar 21, 2005)

hmmmm, feels like I've found my home. My dd is 2.5 and has never slept through the night. On a good night, she wakes up four or more times a night. We do have some nights where she wakes up every 15-20 minutes. Those are the times I just want to jump out a window. And now we have nightmares or night terrors or something where every other night or so she wakes up screaming mindlessly and fights anything that touches her, and she'll just scream hysterically for 30 minutes to an hour or two. Sometimes she has two or three of these a night. She's often been very difficult to get to sleep, and hasn't ever just fallen asleep either. And I'm 7.5 months pregnant, so I'm tired anyway.

But you know, it doesn't bother me as much anymore. I mean I would be thrilled if she slept all night, don't get me wrong. But I'm not as desperately frustrated with it as I was when she was younger. I think I hit my most stressed out with sleep around 18-24 months. Probably closer to 18 months though. Then I finally stopped expecting her to ever sleep well, and surprisingly that helped me a lot. I'm still tired, and I still get frustrated, but it's no longer a constant state of extremem frustration. I know that doesn't help you much, but I did want to let you know that even if the problem doesn't go away, the desperation can. (okay, the desperation goes away as long as I don't think about being pregnant and having to deal with this with the next one... the next one's going to sleep well, right?







)

Much love and hugs, sleep problems suck. I hope your dc starts sleeping better, but if she doesn't, I'll be here for you.


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## ACsMom (Apr 21, 2006)

Count me in. It's bedtime right now, and I am dreading the night to come. It's just gotten worse with time, not better. I worry about my daughter - she seems sleep-deprived, too.

Thanks for starting this thread! I may post more later when I'm awake in the middle of the night, trying not to cry.

Oh, re: the !Kung women - I'm convinced that they have multiple adults who sleep with the babies, taking turns so that no one person is completely saddled with lack of sleep on a consistent basis. I read that somewhere. Or maybe there's something about their lifestyle, diet or psychological make-up that is really different from ours, and they produce babies who sleep better. Who knows. I'd like to find out, though.


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## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

i was sleep deprived for 21 months, which is when i found out i was pg with dd and nightweaned ds. dd is 3 months old, and.....i am NOT sleep deprived!!! i didnt even think that was possible!! on a normal night she only waked once in the middle of the night, then around 6, and then will often sleep until 8 or 9. of course i am up with ds by then, but still. i know it could change at any time, but let me tell you i am enjoying it!!


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Nora's mama my son is 12 months but your description of yourself sounds JUST like what I'd say about me. I just don't give a $hit about anything and it's because i;m too tired to.


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## Brilliantmama (Sep 28, 2006)

My fiance and I joke that Abby(2.5 yrs) is possessed from 10pm-8am. She will wake screaming bloody murder. She is absolutely inconsolable at that point and fights and struggles if you hold her, but demands to be held, screams for milk, but won't drink, etc. etc. It is a real test of our patience! We usually trade off so that we don't lose it, but man is it something else! The other night she looked at me and screamed in a low raspy voice, "MAMA!!" It felt like Satan was coming at me! Sometimes I can rock and hold her (even while shrieking and thrashing about) and talk her down to where she can lay down and snuggle up, but that is a rare occasion. But I am glad to hear other parents have the midnight screaming/test of parental perseverance too.


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## Emmalina (Apr 2, 2006)

Hello sisters in sleeplessness. My ds is 15 months and doesn't sleep through the night. He will sleep for about the first 6 hours (on a good night) and has occasionally slept until about 5 am. Fool that I am I build myself up to thinking that he is turning a corner and then it gets worse like last night when he woke every hour then won't nap during the day. Makes me feel like a big fat failure.

We've tried co-sleeping but it really didn't work for us and I'm afraid the Sears book just made me feel even more like a failure as it all sounded so sweet and wonderful and just didn't work! I think I have tried every method there is and it never makes a long term difference. Norasmum, if you get some advice please pass it on as I am losing the plot. Today my vision started swimming in and out and I was feeling soooo short tempered and fed up. I have no idea how I am going to cope when I go back to work, in fact I'm dreading it and also thinking that I can't ever have any more children







:

Oh well,







to you all . I hope that we all get a snooze soonxxx


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## anitaj71 (Mar 1, 2006)

Gotta join ! My dh is 15 mos and wakes up 4-5 times a night. I am tired all the time. I have the occasional good night when he wakes up only 2 times but those are rare. I don't even know what it's like to feel 'awake' and have energy ! Hugs to you all .


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

So last night was significantly better than it has been...thanks to ibuprophen.







: Obviously, not a long-term solution.

I am just so tapped out right now because Nora is needier during the day too, thanks to teething/separation/anxiety/something unknown.

My thoughts are so jumbled I don't have a clear plan right now for what to do. I told DH last night that *he* was going to take the nighttime shift. But the first time she woke up (I was asleep on the couch) he went to her and she screamed bloody murder until I came in. Apparently only mama will do, at night. I don't know how to change this but I really wish I could.


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## TOmom (May 21, 2005)

Sleep deprivation is really catching up with me after almost a year. Ds is such a bad sleeper and has been since birth. We've coslept and done the crib and both have their down sides. Right now we're cosleeping because the wakings are so frequent and since he has been able to get to sitting position from lying down he does this every 30-90 min and won't ly down again without my intervention (nursing or bouncy ball). And if I don't intervene instantly he wakes up fully and is awake for hours! So that's why he's in bed with me so I can respond right away. But I can't move an inch without waking him he sleeps so lightly. I feel like I can't win with him - nothing seems to improve his sleep. What's worse is my first - 10 years ago - was a fabulous sleeper - 12 hour uninterrupted nights by 3 months and I find myself dreaming about those days and wondering if will I will ever sleep like that again. No time soon I think.


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

I rarely feel sleep deprived, even though ds (6 mo) wakes me up at least 4 times a night... often much more. I am lucky that he usually goes back to sleep fairly quickly though, and that he can latch on just about by himself.

I am aware that i have only been doing this for a short time, and it may catch up on me! Am also very aware that things may get much worse when he is mobile/separation anxiety/teething etc, so I count my blessings that I feel ok now.

Hugs for all you sleep-deprived mommas.


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## joy2bmom (Aug 3, 2006)

Well, its after 3am here and 2yr old dd just fell asleep:yawning: Yup i'd say i'm sleep deprived. She has never slept a full 8 hrs, i think the longest she has slept is maybe 5 straight hrs and thats been just recently. Everyone says its cuz we co sleep, maybe, maybe not


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## joy2bmom (Aug 3, 2006)

why does the little clock thing on my other post say 1:29am when its actually after 3am here? just curious


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## ChiaraRose (Aug 8, 2005)

I am sooo with you. My ds goes to bed at around 8.00 and usually stays in bed until 5.00, BUT he he is an hourly waker, sometimes more often and if I don't nurse him, he freaks out. Sometimes nursing won't do and I have to rock him.
Worse comes to worse, we just traveled to Europe and I am in jetlag hell and all by myself. It is so bad, last night I lied next to ds and cried, something I usually don't do.







: I was ready to rebook my ticket and go back today. Right now he is asleep and I am in a weird way awake, so no sleepies for me...
I have the same problem as the op, why does all my friend's crib sleeping babies wake up no more than 2 times a night and can you get in trouble if you kick another mom in the shins if she whines that her 8 months old still wakes up once a night??
Wish you all a lot of sleeping vibes. It always feels good not to be alone.


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## mamabain (Sep 19, 2002)

been sleep deprived until recently. over 5 years if you wanna get specific. first child was up every 2 hours max from birth till we nightweaned at close to 3. had second child when first turned 3 and she has been up 1.5 hours to 2 hours every night until we nightweaned just recently.

now she goes down at 8 and sleeps solid some nights until 4. i can't drink coffee or she'll be up again more frequently. also, our bedtime for her used to be closer to 10 or 10:30 and i think by that point she was just so overtired. she isn't napping now either. she wakes up sometime between 5 and 6 and i nurse her. she falls back to sleep for a whiile and the nursing continues until she forces me to get up around 7:30. it is still much better than up every 1.5 hrs.


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## karin95 (Jun 30, 2006)

I've found my people.








Our foster daughter is leaving us at the end of the month after a year with us. She's 16 months old.
The one good thing about her leaving is that we'll get some SLEEEEEEEP.

She came to us at 6 months (but was 3 months preemie, so she was 3 mos adjusted age). She had NO self-soothing skills and wouldn't sleep for more than 20 minutes in her carseat/crib/hammock. If we slung her, and vigorously parented her to sleep and kept her asleep, she would usually take at least one 1.5-2 hour nap. It would take 1-2 hours to get her to stay fall and stay asleep at night (so basically our whole evening from 8-10pm would be putting her to sleep, going back in and putting her back to sleep, etc.) And she still would wake up every 1.5-2 hours for a bottle.

She actually qualified for Early Intervention mainly because she was 10 months old and never slept even close to 4 hours at a time overnight (2.5 was her max at that time)! Also, we still had to swaddle her for sleep or she'd smack herself awake. She did best swaddled until she was around 1 year old.

After starting occupational therapy, it got a lot better. She started falling asleep easier and staying asleep when we put her in the hammock.

Now she falls asleep really easily. Will take 2 naps a day for 45mins-2 hrs. Sometimes needs to be helped back to sleep during a nap, but usually not.
Overnight she wakes up for 1 or 2 bottles (from 8pm to 8am) and occasionally needs an additional cuddle or 2. Except for right now, cuz she's having horrible allergies and can't breathe well, so she's waking up every hour or so....

If we were keeping her for longer, we'd be on the road to her sleeping through the night. But, fortunately, her dad will have to teach her that.

Anyway, I'm so sleep deprived, I can't stop babbling!


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karin95* 
She actually qualified for Early Intervention mainly because she was 10 months old and never slept even close to 4 hours at a time overnight (2.5 was her max at that time)!

Um, does that mean my DD would have actually qualified for _therapy_ because she didn't sleep 4 hours at a stretch at 10 months?? Whoa! What do they do in OT that helped your little one to sleep?

I never thought that Nora might have an actual treatable *problem*...I just thought that this is how some babies are. I don't remember exactly how long her longest stretch was at 10 months but I'm sure it wasn't more than 2.5 hours. Not without nursing.


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## royaloakmi (Mar 2, 2005)

Umm, so what are we doing wrong here?

My twins are almost 3 yo and I have not slept through the night since they were born (actually, since before they were born.) My dd slept through the night once, about 2 weeks ago. Ds has come as close as only one nightwaking. Of course, they've never done it on the same night







:

So, yes, I've been extraordinarily sleep deprived for at least 3 years. I'm sure I could qualify as a subject for a military study or something.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

I could have written your post! Oh I feel for you, I really really do. The only differences are 1. my DD is only 15 months old but 2. I had crippling insomnia for the first 9 months of her life.

Ugh!

I wish I could offer some real, helpful advice that would actually result in some rest. But clearly I am not in a position to offer it. DD has never ever fallen asleep without being held or snuggled (the car ride being the exception). When friends tell me their DC just randomly fell asleep in the middle of playing with their toys I could cry with envy. Somedays I handle it better than others. Some days I'm so exhausted I can't even drum up tears of frustration.

Like you, I feel I am not being the mother I want to / could be. I'm not the wife I want for my DH and I am not the person I want to be for me. This exhaustion is like a straitjacket cutting short any emotion or abilities. And yes, I have envy for DH that he gets a good solid nights sleep on a regular basis. Last night DD nursed several hours straight then woke screaming at 3am (with the night terrors?), we got up, read books, etc, then got back in bed and nursed the rest of the night, waking on and off. This morning DH said he didn't even notice that we were up.









So, thank you for this post. I wish we all could find ways to get the rest we need.


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## tulsidas (Jun 2, 2006)

i am with you mamas with no sleep







(although after reading people's post i am not in as bad of a situation) has anyone tried NOT to co-sleep.

i know i dont want to but sometimes i wonder if our family would sleep better if we did not co-sleep. i know its the better way, but is there a time when other mothers have decided to try separate sleeping and it worked.

i knew a mama who co-slept for 6 months and then put her girl in a crib and that night was the first night they all slept.

my DD at times feels like she is on the nipple all night or she is whining for it and it drives me crazy. it is so hard to deal rationally or compassionately when you are tired.

if anyone has good ideas please post.

love to you all!!!!!!!!!


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

I haven't had an uninterrupted night sleep in four and half years. I'm not joking. Not ONE uninteruppted night. I thought my son was the worst sleeper EVER until I had my daughter. At least he was reasonable and would nurse all night in bed NEXT to me but my daughter refuses and I mean refuses to sleep next to me but still wants me to nurse her all night long.







: I am hoping to get some sleep in 2008.


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

Wow, I can really relate with all you mamas. We co-sleep but my dd, 14 months, sleeps in her crib for naps for safety reasons and because I cant get her to go to sleep any more by nursing her on my bed. She nurses and then crawls off the bed. I tried repeatedly putting her back on the bed and telling her night night but that didnt work so this is what I do. Get into the crib, read a story, nurse, and then lay there while she sits there and fidgets sometimes for an hour straight and then eventually lays down and falls asleep, then I sneak out of the crib. She sleeps 1-1.5 hours and then wakes, I get back in the crib, nurse, she falls asleep, I sneak out again. 1-2 hours later she wakes again, I put her in my bed, she nurses and we sleep. All night she continues to try to nurse every couple hours and I have started to hold her close with my shirt down and let her cry for a couple minutes, sometimes she persists and sometimes she starts sucking her thumb and then goes back to sleep. Of course once I get her to sleep at night I stay up so I can feel like a normal person but should really be sleeping. I even tried taking her to the chiro to see if an adjustment would help, he didnt touch her because he said that she looked great but that I needed some work!







: No kidding. He suggested homeopathic chamomile which I tried with no luck, though I think it gave her a sugar high. Hylands teething tablets do work sometimes when teething is really bad but that is short lived.

I started reading the book the No-Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley. It has helped me realize how important a regular schedule and a nighttime routine are among other things but I think I am so sleep deprived that I havent put enough effort in to implementinf a lot of her strategies. She did a study with 60 women like ourselves who implemented her ideas and in ten days she said 42% of the babies slept through the night and by day 60, 92% slept through the night. She also has a book specifically for toddlers. Maybe we should have a book club thread and see what things work best for people.

Well good luck ladies for some sleep tonight.


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

Too tired to read everyone's posts... I go through waves of exhaustion. DD's sleep pattern seems to change dramtically every few weeks, so my energy level does to. The hardest part for me is that every night is like playing the lottery. Lately there's no rhyme or reason to what makes one night better than another. Last night I lost big time. Tonght she fell asleep earlier than ever, and she's up nursing now, so who knows what tonight will bring? Thank goodness I'm only teaching part time right now!


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

i'm here, too...i've really hit the wall the past month, now i'm sick because i'm so run down. with ds he nursed all night till 18 months then we used dr jay gordon's nightweaning technique; after that he slept through the night no problem. so i was looking forward to dd being 18 mos but turns out she has no interest in following gordon's program. whether i nurse her or not she's up every 2 hrs at least. tomorrow we're taking her to a cranio-sacral therapist for this; i'll let you know how it goes, but i'm not expecting anything dramatic...


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Every once in a blue moon DH will sleep with DS and I get abut 4/5 hours of sleep this actaully makes me fee physically worse. I am so much fuzzier and unbablanced than if I were just up all night. does this happen to anyone else or do you get refreshed?
I nightwenaed DD (my 1st) arund 17 mos b/c she was up every 45 minutes until than. After nightweaning she slept really well. I actually remember, clear as a bell the 1st ngiht she slept for 5 hours...I was worrying almost the whole time.








I am trying to night wean DS but he is a tougher customer.

ooops baby wakes gott run







:


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

I haven't slept through the night in at least 5 yrs. It actually started before my son was born.
I'm sure a lot of my problem is stress. Doc is also wondering if it's apnea but I said I don't want to go to the sleep study until ds is comfortable with me being away from him at night. (he's special needs and I doubt he'll be comfortable being away from me at night for a couple more years at least).


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## Fiasmom (Feb 19, 2003)

I have composed some pretty ugly letters in my head to Dr. Sears while lying awake in the middle of the night, with my back twisted into some awful position while the baby nurses. I love my children, boy, do I love my children. And I love what Dr. Sears stands for, but it's not quite what I imagined before the kids came at all. I am quite sure that I will have back problems for the rest of my life, and I haven't slept for more that 3 hours straight in about, well close to 4 years. I am glad I did the AP thing, but if I accidentally got pregnant again, I don't know if I could do it a third time. I just feel like an idiot some times when someone tells me that their child goes to sleep by themselves in less than 5 minutes and sleeps the whole night through.







:


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

It's another wonderful night here at the Nora'sMama household. It took over an hour to put her to sleep (normal) and then she woke up WITHIN 15 MINUTES (not normal - usually it's at least 30-45







: ). Could not be nursed back down. Could not be rocked back down. Cried. DH is now driving her around.

I'm so chronically tired that I have that pained feeling in my temples and forehead that I remember from college...when I would party or study all night long and have to get up and be in class or work all day. A just horrible feeling that goes past tiredness. I cannot even nap. I cannot even sleep. It is freaking BAD.

I seem to function semi-OK most days for a few hours after I wake up and then I perk back up in the evenings...but from about noon to 8 PM I just feel ill. And zoned out. Although I still can't nap, even if I get a chance.









This just does not feel like what I'm supposed to be doing, anymore. But I don't know how to change it in a way that will be gentle and respectful of my daughter. She still has needs (and expectations - that I created) even if it's getting to the point where I have *got* to start taking care of mine too.

Will definitely be doing things very different with kid #2 if there is a kid #2.








:


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I wanted to speak to the "mad at Dr. Sears" thing. I really do feel betrayed.* I read so extensively before Nora was born and I have done my darndest to do everything right...I have parented by my instincts except when my needs or wants conflicted with Nora's. I mean, you have to put your child's needs first, right? That's what every parent is supposed to do. And supposedly AP'ing allows everyone to get their needs met.

I have lied to myself and told myself I was getting my needs met. SO NOT TRUE.

So I hear the stories of the myriad MDC mamas who apparently *are* getting their needs met by AP'ing and I think, what is wrong with me that I can't do this? What the hell am I doing wrong?

I definitely have a strong, loving, wonderful connection to my beautiful, amazing daughter. If AP was responsible for that then it's all worth it. But I am ILL. I am not myself. I am unable to function in any sort of meaningful way. Without my super-supportive (and better-rested) DH, my life would totally be in a shambles.

So I just do not know where to go from here. I feel very lost in regards to AP. I just want to cry. I do not know what to do. I am questioning everything.

*Edited to add: this is all very ironic, as well, because we are switching to the Sears pediatric practice next month. So I guess I will get to confront Dr. Sears about this! He better have some good answers for me!


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## june'smom (Nov 8, 2003)

I am right there with you all. DD who is 3, used to wake up 10-15x per night. When she was about 18 mos, she actually slept though the night a few times per week and pretty darn well the other nights. Then ds was born. They were both up more than 5x per night, each. Then ds started waking up 15x per night.

Now ds is much better, but dd still wakes up a few times and ds wakes up 3-5 times and I am up until 12 or 1 doing my school work. Yikes. It sounds almost as bad as it is. I have given myself permission to develope a serious dependency on caffine because if I don't have it, I will fall asleep folding laundry or reading my text books.

Ok rant over. Life as a mama ain't easy. Everyone told me that dd would for sure sleep well by the time she was 3, well they all lied. Every time I nurse her in the middle of the night I think "boy were they wrong"


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Yep - here I am at 1:30am and DD is asleep!! -- shocker -- but I am on MDC.

I hate that there are so many of us so desparate for sleep. And I'm very sorry to hear that some of us are frustrated at the AP take on it. I have to say that plenty of things from Dr. Sears and the AP crowd have turned out to be harder in practice than they sound on paper, but I honestly had never attributed that to our cosleeping. But now I wonder if it would all have been easier if I hadn't been so determined to cosleep? But I do LIKE to sleep next to my little sweet pea...

For the person who asked if anyone has tried NOT cosleeping, yes I have. And we have a good compromise. When I had terrible insomnia for the first 9+ months of DD's life I HAD to do something. So eventually I decided to start her in the crib at night and then when she wakes for the first time I carry her to our bed where she stays for the rest of the night. That opened the door for me to get a good solid 2-3 hours of sleep at the begining of each night. But I have to say it is easier to have her in bed for the rest of the night because she wakes so frequently and nurses so long that I just don't have it in me to wake that fully and sit upright that much during the night.

Nora'smom, seriously, I think we are living parallel lives. From the taking an hour or more to get her to sleep, to the waking shortly thereafter, to the driving her around, and the pulled-an-all-nighter-partying-too-hard headache, and the awful awful feeling of NOT being able to MAKE myself sleep when I finally do get a few free moments... it sounds like a narration of my life!

Anyway, I hope no one is up reading this right now and that you are all snug in your beds dreaming peacefully! I'm going to go try that myself right now.


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## EStreetMama (Sep 5, 2003)

My baby is sleeping ok...but I take care of him during the day and work at night so I can't get to sleep early enough. I rarely get more than 4-6 hours. CRAP!!! I just heard him...gotta go...insert sad smilie


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## ochoco (Oct 19, 2005)

I have been, on and off, although I'm not going to complain after reading this thread. The good thing about DB is that he will sleep in...

I did just want to say a couple of things. Re: traditional cultures and sleeping, well, I have lived in two (Nepal and Senegal). And in neither culture would there be a situation where one woman was taking care of her child/ren all by herself, all day or all night. In Senegal, I actually had a couple of old women ask me how we could manage with just one wife in the family! In my village, the sleeping arrangements were very different from what they are here. We had a compound, in which several generations lived. The babies did sleep with their moms, and sometimes with older children and their dad. The little kids would sleep with their grandmas and some older sisters. Some of the boys slept with older brothers, uncles, or grandpa. (I'm not sure how anybody got any privacy to _make_ all these babies, but somehow it worked!) There was never a situation where one person was the sole caretaker for a crying/wakeful baby. One thing I noticed - those children could sleep through _anything_. Perhaps because the babies are carried everywhere all day, and they are used to the noise of the village, they just learn to be deep sleepers? My DB is a very light sleeper; sometimes I wish we'd been noisier when he was little!

I forgot to say - these people also take siestas. Everybody naps in the afternoon. This is huge, it's something we don't do in this culture and we SHOULD!

Secondly - about AP and cosleeping and other people...I think as long as you're doing what works for you and your baby, who cares what others think, especially others who you interact with solely via computer. If you find out that your baby sleeps better in another room, then what's wrong with that, really? If she's not crying, if she's asleep - then great! She's getting the sleep she needs, and so are you. I'm saying this as someone who co-sleeps, by the way. To me, the whole point is to raise a healthy, secure, happy child. If the baby is constantly fighting sleep, constantly has issues, then what you're doing isn't working, and I think it's completely OK to try out different options in order to find what works best for you and for her.

I don't have any helpful advice for getting her to sleep - we're still dependent on nursing over here, too, and that's working right now. I have no idea what we'd do if it didn't, though, and it's hard to find real advice. Everything seems to be either CIO or be a martyr, and I don't think either of those are valid options.

I'm really curious to hear about your visit to Dr. Sears, Nora'sMama...


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Nora's mom please let us know what he says!


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

ochoco, I _really_ value what you've shared about your experience in Nepal and Senegal. One of the problems with AP is it is based on a model of parenting that doesn't fit with our contemporary western culture. True AP would take an entire village.

I also do not believe that AP means putting your child's needs first. To me it means doing what it takes to build and keep a strong attachment; if that attachment is in jeopardy because you are so incredibly sleep deprived to the point of getting sick, then something has to shift. We can't be loving, nurturing mothers if we are not also loving and nurturing ourselves.

Nora'smom, have you looked into dr jay gordon's method? It isn't working for us right now but we still intend to come back to it and try again soon. He suggests trying , if it doens't work, give it a break, then come back to it when things are settled. www.drjaygordon.com I like his approach because he is very AP-friendly but also relaistic about our needs as parents in this culture.

Lastly, I cannot overstate the importance of the nap! I never ever did sleep in the day with my firts child. thsi time aroudn though I'm hs-ing and it would be physically impossible to keep going if I didn't nap. I never thought I'd actually sleep but now, with practice, I doze off for 20-50 minutes. It is transformative! The days I skip that I'm a wreck.


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## kirk_heidi (Apr 26, 2006)

I have been sleep deprived since I was pg with my twins and they will be 1 next week. I would say it has been about 15 months of sleep deprivation. They still nurse several times a night. The very, very rare case of sleep sends my body into confusion!!


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## wanderlustfam (Oct 2, 2006)

Namaste to sleep-deprived Mamas!

Baby girl (7 mos) has always been a good cuddler-co-sleeper until recently. She went from sleeping through the nights, to teething and waking up periodically to nurse, to now moaning many, many times during the night. It's not crying, it's this grunting/moan/whine that won't stop unless I nurse her. As soon as she pops off, she will often start moaning again. I picked her up this morning to try to rouse her during a moaning episode and she was obviously not awake, it stopped as soon as she got back on my breast. I'd say she moans about 10-15 times a night. Luckily I can typically fall back asleep while she suckles, but I wake up exhausted, dehydrated, and with a sore throat from all that nursing.

I've had a few ideas, and was wondering what you folks think.

1)Perhaps she is not getting enough calories from nursing exclusively during the day and she is moaning with hunger
2)The tea I am drinking in the morning is having some effect on her sleep cycles
3)Growing pains
4)Could she have nightmares?

Any similar experiences?? Thanks to anyone who reads this!


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

Dr. Sears wrote a forward in Pantley's book and I remember reading a comment of his that was something along the lines of, he was so happy that there was now something out there that he could offer to parents for helping baby sleep without crying it out or just living with it.


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

*raises hand*

Yup, another one of the sleep deprived here.

It has been getting slightly better though, and I'm hoping it will continue to improve. For a long time, 3-6x waking per night was our norm, with several nights of cluster nursing after 3:00-4:00 thrown in to make me totally batty. I often considered nightweaning but procrastinated. Then, about a month ago, we both got sick with a nasty cold, and for whatever reason, DS slept totally through the night - like from 9:30-6:00. Of course _I_ didn't sleep through the whole night (LOL) but I got a couple good blocks of sleep. For the next couple of nights, he made it to 4:00 without nursing, and that was a huge difference for me.

Unfortunately, it didn't continue. But now we have occasion nights where he makes it to the middle of the night without nursing...and I think that I can tell a difference even when it's just until 2:00 or so. On a good night, he might only nurse twice - once at 2 or 3 and then again at 6:00 or so. But these are still interspersed with nights when he wakes up an hour after we go to sleep (which is very difficult for me) and then continues to wake up several more times. Overall, it's just a tiny step over the line between going crazy and being able to tolerate it. I'm not constantly obsessing about nightweaning anymore, though I still consider it on occasion. My latest goal is maybe to do it at two years, depending on where he is in getting those evil 2 yr molars.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_1)Perhaps she is not getting enough calories from nursing exclusively during the day and she is moaning with hunger
2)The tea I am drinking in the morning is having some effect on her sleep cycles
3)Growing pains
4)Could she have nightmares?_

The only thing about this I have to contribute is that breastmilk (even though its a liquid) had WAY more calories than any solid food. A's sleep changed radically at about six months due to not enough nursing in the day (too much going on!) and needing to catch up at night. Have you looked at kellymom.com? There's some good info on there.

I've been having some luck this past week by nursing A in her sleep when I come to bed. She goes to sleep at 7:30 and I give her the "moon boob" at 10:30 or 11:00. That way, she doesnt wake up at 12:30 wanting to nurse and we skip that waking for mama and baby.

The other thing I've been doing is offering water at the other waking, wearing a nightshirt (so she can't see my boobs) and it's working! She will still not exactly cry, but complain, but last night she was asleep within 5 minutes. Also, that 2nd waking keeps getting later and later. So, now she's able to go six or seven hours without nursing. Progress!

Keep in mind that she still nurses to sleep, nap and nighttime, but is somehow able to get herself asleep in the night. Maybe it's all those months of saying to her, "it's time for sleeping now" and the way I lay her down and immediately head back to my bed. I dunno. I'm too sleep deprived to do an analysis....


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## mommyof2obx (Sep 17, 2006)

I feel your pain too! I have a newly turned 1 y.o. and a 2 1/2 y.o. Both boys....both don't sleep throught the night. I have to tell people i haven't slept in two and a half years. It's the truth! I know what you are going through. My older son will off and on sleep through....I don't get excited anymore when he does...I know the next night I'll be getting up. My one year old is just getting (in the past two nights) where he is getting up maybe once after 11pm. It was 3-4 times.

I have really nobody here to give me a break. Not even a mommy group. My parents live down in GA (fortuantely, they are coming up in 2 days)

I feel like a sob story sometimes...but I've noticed a behaviour change in myself and I know it is due to lack of sleep. I'm hoping one day it'll get better.







So hang it there!


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## Hollin (Jun 26, 2005)

This is such a great thread. I agree that the whole AP thing is really, really hard to do in western culture. Unless you like being a martyr mother who never takes care of her own needs.

Nora'sMom, I also question what I will do with baby #2. There are times when I feel like things have gotten so bad that I feel like I'm going to pop that next kid in a crib, put him on a schedule, and even sleep train. But I probably won't really. The temptation is definitely there though. I'm barely functional enough to parent one baby. How could I parent a baby and a toddler on even less sleep?

On a brighter note, Alden has been sleeping slightly better. I started an elimination diet a week ago, but I don't know if it's just coincidence that he's also sleeping better. He doesn't cry at night until I rock him for 20 minutes anymore, just nurses back to sleep. He also only got up 4 or 5 times last night, a big improvement! I hope it continues.


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## Cate (Oct 2, 2005)

Haven't read the whole thread yet but just had to say ...
Sleep? What's that? I can't remember sleep....
Actually, things have recently gotten much better. We had to break down and give him meds for reflux. I hate to medicate him, but it's so nice to have him not in pain. For the first time in his little life, he's not in pain. It makes me want to cry every time I think about it.


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## zannster (Aug 12, 2004)

I spoke too soon...last night had so many nursings, I lost track. I'd guess 8-10 times. Argh.









Have any of you noticed your child having a sensitivity to the air in the room? We noticed this with DS when he was younger...if we didn't air out the room before bed (w/open window, regardless of the temp), he'd wake up and cry more. I thought he was over that...but maybe not. Our furnace isn't working, and it was below freezing last night, so we didn't air out. I kept the bedroom door open...but maybe it wasn't enough.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

I took dd for cranio scaral therapy yesterday. she absolutely loved it, and the therapists felt strongly that she needs to work on me and dd together to balance things out. what was really interesting was afterwards dd was so happy and relaxed and kept coming to me for cuddles (non-nurisng cuddles are unheard of from her usually, she just doesn't stay still long enough!). also interesting was even though the therapist didn't work on me directly I came out feeling completely different, like something shifted in me at the same time, and today the cold that i had has vanished overnight.

so maybe it's a great therapy to deal with the impact of sleep deprivaton, even if it's not directly for your dc?

I think dd actually did sleep for a much longer stretch at the beginning of the night, but after that it was back to usual and now she's up, unusually early. we have another appointment for the two of us in 2 weeks, we'll see how that goes...


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## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

Hi everyone. I voted sleep deprived for over a year. Actually, it's been over 6 years now.


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## MamaSpruce (Aug 10, 2004)

subbing! Don't really have time to catch up and post too much, ds is asleep, must go nap.







My ds is 19 months old and used to sleep 4 hour chunks. It has gotten worse, now 2 hours is the longest stretch, every 1/2 hour being common. And I am feeling so sleep deprive! More soon. Thanks for starting this thread!


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muse* 
True AP would take an entire village.

I also do not believe that AP means putting your child's needs first. To me it means doing what it takes to build and keep a strong attachment; if that attachment is in jeopardy because you are so incredibly sleep deprived to the point of getting sick, then something has to shift. We can't be loving, nurturing mothers if we are not also loving and nurturing ourselves.









:

I have been really conflicted about this issue. I've been sleep deprived for 2.5 years, sometimes being woken 10+ times a night, more often between 3-6 times. My son's personality radically changed when I tried Dr. Gordon's method. He also didn't sleep any better. Nine nights of no nursing, and not one iota more of sleep. He just wasn't ready. We tried it a bit after age two. (His personality went back to itself after returning to nursing at night). We've tried feeding him food at night (his stomach always growls; he's actually hungry; that worked temporarily). I've tried to just live with it, and sometimes I've been OK with that, sometimes not. My husband's support is the only way I can do it. If I can sleep late in the mornings I am a sane (well, almost) person.

But then, just recently, we moved to a new house and my husband got a new job. He can no longer cover while I get some extra morning sleep. Also, I just sort of reached my emotional limit with losing sleep. I became angrier and angrier at ds; I became less physically able to just "push through" -- maybe because parenting a newly willful toddler takes it out of me in new ways? Anyway, losing sleep and feeling angry at ds was changing my mothering and our relationship. AND in our new house we have the option of me sleeping in a room (didn't have that before). So we tried that for the first time, with me sleeping in the other room to start and then joining them at his first waking.

Miracle! Ds started sleeping longer during his first stretch. Then he started waking again. So our last ditch effort was to have me sleep in the other room and dh to do all nighttime care and tell ds that "Mama is sleeping. I'm here to take care of you tonight." We told ds this would happen ahead of time. We just told him that I can't lose sleep anymore, and that I need sleep in order to be a happy mama. The first night, at his first waking, he cried with dh for an hour. DH was great, very patient and just kept repeating that I was asleep and that he could take care of ds. Ds knew I was down the hall, and the door to my room was open. After an hour of protest (I was freaking out the whole time), he went to sleep for the rest of the night. The next night was just a few minutes of crying, dh reminding him that I was sleeping, and then he cuddled with dh and went to sleep for the rest of the night. We had three nights of this before they both got sick and I've been doing night nursing as needed while they're sick.

During those three days of almost a full night's sleep, I was a changed mother. I was myself again. I loved my son again (not that I ever didn't, but you know how the resentment can take over...). I was thrilled to see him in the morning, and ready to start our day. I was more willing and happy to nurse during the day. I just can't describe how different it felt. I hope we can return to that pattern after the sickness is over.

I would never encourage anyone to do what we did if their dc reacted badly to it (like my ds did when we tried Dr. Gordon's way). But I just wanted to share that it looks like it might be the right decision for us. Ds does great with more sleep, too. He is so well-rested that he either skips his nap or naps two hours later than normal.

Just wanted to share...


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## majorsky (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
She literally has never ever in her life laid down and gone to sleep. Sometimes she can be rocked to sleep. Rarely nursed to sleep. She needs Big Time parenting to sleep.

BUT that's no big deal...if she would just *stay* asleep. <sigh>


I'm late to this conversation, but you have my total sympathy! I've only earned almost 7 months of sleep deprivation







, but I can feel your pain.







I know the numb, zombie-like feelings you speak of. Usually as long as I maintain inertia, I don't notice it -- but I definitely can feel it if I'm just sitting there not moving. Like when I'm waiting at a stoplight!







It doesn't make me feel terribly confident to feel so zombie-tired in the car...

My stepfather-in-law once asked me, "Does she (DD) ever just fall asleep on her own if you lay her down?" I laughed and responded, "Never in her life has she done that! Not even if she's exhausted!" She either needs to be nursed, bounced, walked in the stroller, or walked around the house to fall asleep. And it's often not an easy process.

I understand what you mean when you say you felt mislead by Dr. Sears saying that co-sleeping allows mom to sleep more... I sometimes feel the same way, but I also realize that if I *didn't* co-sleep, I'd be dragging my butt out of bed every couple hours to nurse DD anyway. Since I tend to deal with insomnia in the middle of the night a couple times a week, it's much easier for me to fall asleep co-sleeping and nursing than walking into the next room, nursing the baby in a rocking chair, and then coming back to bed after she finally gets back to sleep and I lay her in a crib. So while I'm not getting much sleep these days, I'm still getting more than if my daughter were sleeping *outside* our bed. That's also the excuse I use when my husband talks about moving baby out of our bed.









The woman who cuts my hair made me feel a little better (or maybe a little worse) by telling me that sleep deprivation never totally goes away as long as you have children at home. She has two teens and a pre-teen and she says she's still awake at night, except now she worries about the teens who are out with their friends.

I've gotten to the point where, if we have a good night and DD only wakes me up a few times, I'm grateful for the sleep I did get. Just the other night, DD managed to go all night without asking to nurse! BUT she did wake me up several times flopping around and kicking me.







I definitely have those days where I feel like I'm at my limit for exhaustion. At those times, I try to figure out a way to squeeze a nap in, which sometimes requires DH entertaining the baby for an hour. It doesn't cure the sleep deprivation, but it does make me feel a tiny bit better.

Kristin


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## einalems2 (Jun 8, 2006)

I'm right there with you all. My 5 yo DD was the most horrific sleeper in the world and still doesn't sleep through most nights. Whe she goes to sleep overly tired, she is horribly restless and wakes every hour or so. She has to have me touching her all night long or she cries. My 2 1/2 yo DS is a much better sleeper, but still wakes usually once a night for water or to go to the bathroom, then needs me to lay with him to fall back asleep. They share a room, so it is basically bed-hopping all night. I have a new baby coming in November and I am starting to get nervous about getting less sleep than I do now.

The only thing that ever seems to help is early bedtimes for the kids. They sleep better at night when they are out by 7:00. But they are still tough.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

You guys don't know how good it is to read your stories. (NOT that I'm glad other mamas are as exhausted as I am, of course...but to know that this is a fairly common problem among AP moms).

I went and re-read the sleep part of Sears' "The Baby Book". And you know what? He is *totally* not in favor of martyring oneself to one's child, at night or any other time. He suggests that if co-sleeping is not working, you can change that. If all-night nursing is getting you down, you should consider nightweaning (past a certain age, I mean you wouldn't nightwean a small baby of course).

I found it very sensible and in line with reality...not some impossible ideal. Why did I forget this?? I read The Baby Book in its entirety while pregnant and consulted it again after Nora was born. But yet in my mind I had remembered something totally different than what Dr. Sears really says about sleep.

We are going to be trying a variety of things in the next week or so...I will let you know how it's going with the sleep. I am pretty sure that all-out nightweaning is impossible right now so my goal is just to space out the nursing and see if we can get DD to accept DH doing some of the nighttime parenting.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

OK, I just got paranoid that it sounds like I'm advocating CIO -- I'm really not. Our son is very verbal and is able to converse with us about what's going on. Anyway, I'm sure there are a million different ways to approach sleeping, and I guess what I'm advocating is flexibility, responsiveness to one's particular child, and compassion for the needs of everyone. HTH clarify.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
OK, I just got paranoid that it sounds like I'm advocating CIO -- I'm really not. Our son is very verbal and is able to converse with us about what's going on. Anyway, I'm sure there are a million different ways to approach sleeping, and I guess what I'm advocating is flexibility, responsiveness to one's particular child, and compassion for the needs of everyone. HTH clarify.

Not to worry, I don't think I have seen anyone on this thread advocating CIO!

Crying in arms is not the same as CIO, and that is MDC's position also.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I swear I'm going crazy from the lack of sleep.









I won't go into details but my god I am going nucking futs.

Seriously.

Physically I am a mess, too.

I feel like I have gone wrong somewhere, but where?

I don't know what to do.

She doesn't want to sleep.

Now (for the past 2 nights) she has not gone to sleep for the first time until 10 or later. And then wakes up immediately. And again. And again. No matter what we do or don't do or where she sleeps. I'm so angry (at the situation - not at her of course) that I feel enraged in addition to all the other sucky physical and emotional feelings.

F*cking hate this.

I know this is just the emotion of the situation talking but it makes me want to turn back time and teach her to sleep in a crib from day 1. My mother did this with me and supposedly never had to CIO. I remember thinking that my mom missed out on co-sleeping but she also missed out on

GOING INSANE.







:

RUINING HER HEALTH.







:

and all the other fun stuff I have experienced.

I feel like I can't share this (too much) w/ family b/c although they won't say "I told you so" they will be thinking it.







:

So on top of everything I am alienated somewhat from my family.

Truly, can it get any worse? Had a massive fight w/ DH just now and I really think I have gone crazy. It was totally my fault. I can't write how I acted b/c it was both childish and...scary.


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Sooooo sorry, Nora's Mama. That sounds absolutely ROTTEN.

Your DH has GOT to take on more of the nighttime parenting or you are going to have a nervous breakdown. You need a BREAK!!!!!

We just got NCSS, so we're getting close to the end of our rope too...


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh Nora'smom (((HUGS))) I know only too well how you are feeling. I have been there myself.

You need a break. Is there anyway you could get DH to take over for a while so that you can just "be" by yourself? When it gets really bad I need to have DH take DD out of the house. It isn't enough to have them here in another room because if she crys I know it would be a quick fix for me to go nurse her. One thing I do is make a grocery list (the longer the better) and send them out together - then despite everything that needs to get done, and despite all the sleep I need, I sit down and veg out in front of the TV.

I know it isn't much but when there is so little hope for change on the horizon you have to take even the littliest breaks. I've been where you are - and I wish I could offer more help.

Try to take it one moment at a time. The more worked up about it I get, the worse it is for me. Last night I laid in bed with DD for 1.5 hours before she finally finally put her little head down and closed her eyes. On some nights that could have driven me crazy, but last night I just accepted that I'd be in bed for a long time with her, and it was ok. More than ok, I enjoyed it! I wish I could be that accepting about it more often!!

Got to go, I'm working on focussing on giving DD as much physical exercise during the day as I can - maybe that will help? Keep posting, though, so we know how you are doing. And know you aren't alone!!


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## Mama2E&O (Sep 7, 2004)

I have been sleep-deprived since my first pregnancy 6 years ago! Both of my babies have been terrible sleepers- my 2 3/4 year old would wake up more often than once every hour for his first 2 years of life, if you can imagine that.
Now I'm pregnant with our third, and with our track record. . .


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## majorsky (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
I swear I'm going crazy from the lack of sleep.









Think of this thread as a bunch of mamas giving you one big hug!!







I was thinking about posting on this thread about last night because it wasn't a good one for us... DD decided to wake up at 3:45 am like it was time to get up in the morning. It took me about three hours to get her and myself back to sleep. She does this every couple weeks (aside from the other non-sleeping issues) and it's really frustrating. How can she think it's time to get up and play when it's totally dark outside??? Just weird.

To top it off, DH is being a bit of a pain. He's complaining about the baby kicking him during the night. If she kicks him once, it seems like he's awake for four hours after that. He obviously has insomnia issues, which I've struggled with too, but it's frustrating because he won't do anything constructive about it. He doesn't come up with solutions other than "move the baby out of the bed." There are other things he can try, like a warm glass of milk, hypnotherapy, or even getting up to watch TV -- he seems to have no problem falling asleep in front of the TV!









This morning I told DH that we need to get another bed so we can sleep in different beds now. With all the other sleep issues, I don't feel like listening to him complain about how he can't sleep because the baby's keeping _him_ up. (He rarely gets up to help me get the baby back to sleep in the middle of the night.) Not hearing him complain about sleep deprivation means a little less crankiness on my part.

Kristin


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Thanks for all the support, mamas! *Finally* DD decided to sleep...and slept until 10 this morning







...

DH is actually very involved in the sense that when she just *can't* be put to sleep he will drive her around as long as it takes to get her back to sleep. But when she is wakeful, she doesn't want him and will scream progressively louder until I come in.

I have thought of going to a hotel for a night!! But that seems cruel, she would really be so upset. I'm going to wait a while longer until she can understand a bit more before trying something drastic like that.

Sorry my post last night was so frantic. I truly thought she would *never* get to sleep and stay asleep for more than 10-20 minutes. But, at some point (LATE) she did. And now I feel...not super-rested, but OK.

I will check back in later tonight w/ some thoughts...I am going to buy the NCSS for Toddlers today if I can get to the bookstore, although I lurk on the NCSS thread and it doesn't seem to have worked for most people...


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## lotsofkids (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
I swear I'm going crazy from the lack of sleep.









I won't go into details but my god I am going nucking futs.

Seriously.

Physically I am a mess, too.

I feel like I have gone wrong somewhere, but where?

I don't know what to do.

She doesn't want to sleep.

Now (for the past 2 nights) she has not gone to sleep for the first time until 10 or later. And then wakes up immediately. And again. And again. No matter what we do or don't do or where she sleeps. I'm so angry (at the situation - not at her of course) that I feel enraged in addition to all the other sucky physical and emotional feelings.

F*cking hate this.

I know this is just the emotion of the situation talking but it makes me want to turn back time and teach her to sleep in a crib from day 1. My mother did this with me and supposedly never had to CIO. I remember thinking that my mom missed out on co-sleeping but she also missed out on

GOING INSANE.







:

RUINING HER HEALTH.







:

and all the other fun stuff I have experienced.

I feel like I can't share this (too much) w/ family b/c although they won't say "I told you so" they will be thinking it.







:

So on top of everything I am alienated somewhat from my family.

Truly, can it get any worse? Had a massive fight w/ DH just now and I really think I have gone crazy. It was totally my fault. I can't write how I acted b/c it was both childish and...scary.




















































Nora's Mom,

I'm so sorry you are so tired and you are right, it's not healthy for you nor your DC. However tired you are, so is she.

I have read just about every sleep book ever written. Seriously, I could barely carry them to the car from the library. I was determined to find out what they all have in common. I've also spent a great deal of time reading sleep studies for children and adults. Here are the things I learned and that helped me get a good night's sleep.

All the books had these two things in common, regardless of their mode of "sleep training".

1. Set bedtimes, naptimes and wake times.
2. Bedtime routine

When a child or person becomes so sleep-deprived they actually are unable to go to sleep. This is why a child fights sleep. A well-rested child will lay down and go to sleep without all the drama. The more sleep-deprived a child is, the harder it is for them to fall asleep. This is why it is imperative to have a consistent routine in order to establish a healthy sleep pattern. The consistency you put in, is the consistency you will get back from your child. Even adult insomniacs are told to go to bed and wake up at the same times.

So the important thing to establishing a routine is to decide what times work best for your family and then you must stick to it. A 17 month old should be sleeping 14-15 hours per day of which they should be getting 11-12 hours per night with about 2-3 hours a day in naps. You should have 12 hours that are "day" and 12 hours that are "night". So if you decide that 7pm is bedtime, then wake time would be 7am. Start your bedtime routine a half an hour to one hour before the goal of sleeping. Whatever you decide will be included in your bedtime routine, you must follow in order, so that your child will know that when this routine starts it is time to go to sleep.

If you keep changing the rules and try one thing and then another and then another and then finally take her and put in the car, then the only thing she is learning is that the rules keep changing.

The other interesting thing I learned, is that some children have a hard time transitioning from deep sleep to active (REM) sleep. Have you ever noticed that she will wake up at about the 40 minute mark? Most children transition from deep to active sleep in 40 minute increments. A lot of times a child will suck in order to move from one form of sleep to another. This is the reason they want to nurse and why some nurse so often at night, and why some children that co-sleep are up so much more than others. If you are right there, and they need that sucking to continue to the next level of sleep, well then you are RIGHT THERE. This may be why some parents and children sleep better apart.

So I would say the things you could start implementing right away would be to work on getting her on a good, solid routine, so that she isn't so sleep-deprived. This may mean a very early bedtime. I have one friend who's child sleeps best if he's in bed by 6pm. He's always woken up at 6am and this is when he needs to go to bed to get 12 hours. Don't be afraid to try a different approach. There is no one way for parenting. Every child is different.

I will say these things worked for my family. We were all sleep deprived and now we're not. It all seemed so contrived and somewhat rigid to me, but it worked. It wasn't easy in the beginning, but now we have a bedtime routine that the whole family enjoys. I no longer dread bedtime. I start each night at 7pm with baths, followed by brushing teeth, followed by reading books, followed by lights out at 8pm. I wish I would have done this when my older children were younger.

Finally, I just want to say that parenting is a journey. We are all on it and it is a learning experience. But you deserve to be happy and well-rested and so does your child. I would love to hear what Dr. Sears has to say, and sure hope you update us.


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## majorsky (Oct 31, 2005)

Nora'smom, have you had any luck with using white noise to help your daughter _stay_ asleep? My DD used to wake up shortly after starting her daytime naps, and I just happened to stumble across white noise as the solution. Now she often takes her naps in a vibrating chair in the bathroom with the exhaust fan turned on. It's dark, cozy, and the white noise drowns out other noises. When she's willing to nap at all, I can usually get her to sleep for an hour or two in the bathroom.

I plan to get a white noise machine for the bedroom as I transition DD out of our bed. This one seems to be the best:

http://www.toolsforwellness.com/63041.html

HTH!
Kristin


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Oh nora's mom..it sucks!! I totally know how much it sucks. CAn you get DH to commit to a couple nights in a row taking her at night? If he can do 2 or 3 in a row than you can get better sleep. also if it is too much with work like with my DH than could you do amodiefied version...my DH gets DS until 11 pm and until 5 am on the nights before his days off. This gets DS used to DH soothing him and also lets him know he doen't have to nurse every 5 seconds.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

*Edited.

You know what, I can't even talk about this.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

nora's mom, i'm not usually one to give direct advice, but i think it sounds like you really do need to do something to take care of yourself right now. when i was out of my mind with sleep deprivation dh kept urging me to go spend a night in a b&b, just to have one full night's sleep. i refused to do it, thinking it would undo all my AP-ing, but I regret that. when things get that bad there is only one thing that needs to happen and that is *you need to get some sleep*. you cannot run on empty. you need to meet your needs frist before you can meet hers. this sounds urgent.

when your dh comes home hand her over to him and get in the bathtub/go for a walk/whatever helps you unwind, and make a plan for how to take care of yourself.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Thanks, muse, I did so!

I edited my post b/c I am just sick of typing out all the "drama".









suffice it to say that Nora seems to be boycotting sleep.









I have a much more pleasant temper now that DH took her for a "shift"...although she was screaming while he was with her until she calmed down...I was at the point where I was actually too worn down to rush in and "rescue" her. And she did calm down pretty soon.

Auuggh. Am going to be trying a very strict routine that I will have to make myself follow consistently. lotsofkids' post really resonated with me.

As have everyone's.









Thanks so much, you guys. Part of me feels like I shouldn't be sharing how I feel b/c it might make someone reading it think, "oh jeez, I guess I shouldn't co-sleep, look what happened to these sleep-deprived ladies!"







But in my saner moments I think that from all of my vast anecdotal Internet experience







children are born with 'sleep temperaments'. Yes there is probably always something you can do to improve or worsen your child's sleep. But there are DEFINITELY easy and difficult sleepers. I don't think things would be easier w/ Nora if we did CIO, put her in a crib from day 1, etc. And it's a moot point b/c my tender mama heart wouldn't let me do those things anyway.







Although I do think that there are things we could have done when she was small that might have influenced her sleep positively...I think that she would be a difficult sleeper, regardless.

I hope that made some kind of sense.







:

DH has taken her out and I am going to spend a few more minutes on MDC winding down and then I am going to go to BED.

Can I just say Hooray for my DH, though. He is so willing to do whatever I ask in regards to this issue.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

I think kids are born with sleep temperaments too. DH doesn't, he still believes that we if we were just doing the RIGHT MAGIC thing then our son would be sleeping well, like other people's babies. I don't think so and I gave up looking for the magic formula several months ago because it was too stressful, too hard to constantly be secondguessing myself and wondering what I am doing wrong, and thinking about how something didn't work but what if I tweak it and so on. No, ds is just the kind of baby who wakes frequently. DH has never done a "turn" with nighttime parenting. He sleeps in the bedroom with us, on his own safety mattress beside our big one because without the extra space he would probably get almost as little sleep as I do, as the baby is a mover and a kicker.....Right now he gets nursed every time he wakes but in about 4 mos or so (I'm pregnant) it's going to be DH's turn to "be" with the baby at night because I think it's the only way to night wean him, and maybe teach him to need less work to fall back asleep. DH has been spared thus far because his job is really demanding and he can barely keep up with his sleep as it is... I stay home so it's less important for me to be mentally there. Which is good because mentally I am not there at all due to the lack of sleep. I think it's best to help the baby find other ways of comfort besides my breast at night so that the newborn will be spared the drama of him being denied. I've said no a couple of times, when I couldn't take it anymore after nurseathons and drama is an understatement.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Meg, I'm so sorry your DH is not able to help you at night.









Drama is right...DD started in with the trying to pinch my boob, latch on/latch off/latch on/pinch pinch pinch routine at some point last night, and I simply "protected" my other boob by putting a hand over it so she couldn't pinch (if I cover it with a shirt she becomes hysterical, but sometimes will forget about pinching if my hand is there). She freaked out. Shrieked as if I were sticking pins into her.

I feel like a horrible mama. If I try to have *any* physical boundaries, it is met with howls of betrayed protest. She becomes hysterical - snot coursing out the nose, etc. - within seconds. It is very very hard for me as an AP mama to "enforce" anything - including not being physically mauled - when that is the reaction. It is so tempting to just let her pinch, but if I do, I am filled with pain (physical) and resentment and it is definitely not a healthy situation. We have been having the pinching battle since she was about a year old and she still does not seem to accept that pinching is unacceptable.

I have never "lost my temper" with Nora directly but last night I came very very close. I so wanted to yell at her. I feel like I need to rewind the parenting tape and start over somewhere, because I am in a very bad place right now.

DH is, too. He is wonderful but he is also stressed out. Similarly to me, he has a lot more patience with Nora than with me. So WE are always snappy at each other and nice and gentle to Nora. But we both are finding it harder and harder to have the appropriately gentle tone at 1/3/5 in the morning when she is screaming because she can't pinch and scratch mama's boobie.







:

This is the kind of thing I can't talk to *anyone* IRL about except my friend who is also an MDC mama, and I don't think she has actually gone through what we are going through...it is so good to read this thread and vent and know that I am not alone, but everyone I know IRL would think I was crazy for so many reasons if I told them. Why is she still in my bed? Why is she allowed, at 1.5 years old, to nurse all night long? Why does she touch your other breast while nursing - that's very strange! Why can't you just put her to sleep? Why, why, why? All of my cousins, my parents, everyone in my family had kids in their cribs from day one, never ever dealt with these problems and think ONE HUNDRED PERCENT I have brought them upon myself. I hear their judgmental questioning in my head as I wake up for the 10th time in the night to remove little nails from my nipple.

I actually confessed to my closest cousin, who has a 4 year old, that I was sleep deprived from Nora not sleeping. She was totally puzzled. I asked her what she had done w/ her DS when he didn't sleep. She said he was sleeping 6 hours in a row when he came home from the hospital and never had any sleep problems that she can remember.







: So then I felt like a fool for even opening my mouth.

So it's 5 AM and I'm not sleeping and DH is not sleeping and Nora is not sleeping and we are one UNhappy family right now and it's all my fault. I'm filled with anger, at myself.

Sorry for the whine.


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## lotsofkids (Aug 25, 2006)

NoraMama,

I really think you are dealing with a child who has trouble getting through the sleep cycles. One other thing all the eight gazillion books suggest is to to get the child interested in a lovey. A special blanket or stuffed animal that they have in bed and use for comfort. I'm thinking YOU are the lovey at this point, and being mauled as one. Also, do you have a crib? Perhaps you could get her to sleep and put her in for a nap and see what happens? If she has a hard-to-transition sleeping personality, she just may sleep better apart from you, because she may learn to transition without your help if she has a little space of her own. (I'm thinking people must have invented cribs for a reason. I might research that. Why DID they make cribs?)


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

nora'smama, i think we are dealing with similar creatures! dd screams a blood curdling scream whenever she doesn't get what she wants! and yes it takes it's toll on the parent's relationship.

my dd has a lovely, has slept across the room on her own futon, etc etc, doesn't change a thing. she wakes up 4-8 times a night. and the worst bit right now she has started waking up at 6am every morning, so we can't even catch up at that time of day anymore. i hear her right now, in fact...

but here's something to think about; all those people who say their babies sleep through the night - well, my experience has been that it comes out at some point....for example our friends sleep trained their dd from birth, always had 8 solid hrs a night, and thought we had it all wrong..well she just turned 2 and is waking up every night and the only way they can get her to sleep again is by getting into her bed with her - imagine that! they are having a harder time than us now because they are not used to dealing with this. i also have friends with older kids dealing with sleep issues when they thought they had it all sorted. our experience with ds was that it was tough for 18 months-2 yrs but ever since then, no problem. he is a secure, well attached child.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotsofkids* 
NoraMama,

I really think you are dealing with a child who has trouble getting through the sleep cycles. One other thing all the eight gazillion books suggest is to to get the child interested in a lovey. A special blanket or stuffed animal that they have in bed and use for comfort. I'm thinking YOU are the lovey at this point, and being mauled as one. Also, do you have a crib? Perhaps you could get her to sleep and put her in for a nap and see what happens? If she has a hard-to-transition sleeping personality, she just may sleep better apart from you, because she may learn to transition without your help if she has a little space of her own. (I'm thinking people must have invented cribs for a reason. I might research that. Why DID they make cribs?)

I think they made cribs because there was a rash of infanticides in Europe - people would smother their babies and claim they had simply rolled over on them by accident - and requiring babies to sleep separately ended this as an excuse for infanticide.

As far as sleep cycles, I totally agree with you. As far as loveys, we have tried unsuccessfully to introduce one. We've tried different things - a small blanket, a beloved stuffed toy. My dd is very stubborn. I like that trait in her but it means that when she wants something in particular, nothing else will do. A lovey is just no comparison to my boobs, apparently.

We have tried the crib and she just wakes up more frequently. She does nap in her crib a fair amount of the time. But even for naps, she wakes up more quickly in the crib.

The funny thing is she loves her crib and always wants to play in it - I don't let her, because I want her to think it's for sleep. She absolutely refuses to lie down in it, however, though she obviously knows what it's for. If we want her to sleep in the crib (just like if we want her to sleep anywhere) we have to put her in a deep deep sleep first, or else she wakes up instantly.

Muse, it's so good to hear that (almost) everyone has to deal with these things at some point. My parents didn't but that was because we were absolutely not permitted to sleep with them (unless my dad was out of town, then we could take turns sleeping with my mom). And they never laid down with us. But I remember lying alone and afraid in my room, a LOT. I don't want to do that to Nora - I want her to have positive sleep associations.

I think I'm just really disappointed in myself right now. And I feel too tired to implement what I know we NEED, a firm routine to give us all back some feeling of structure and order. Right now it just feels like timeless chaos. She is not sleeping well (or yesterday, at ALL) in the daytime either.

I have thought about it and going to a hotel or something for a night, to get some sleep, would not work. Because my poor dd will be hysterical and the next night I will be back and she will be twice as needy. If I had to be gone every night I'm sure she would get used to it, but I *don't*. We are going to have to figure the sleep thing out as a family - I can't just act like I am separate from DH and DD because I'm the one who's the most sleep-deprived. (I think)

So, I'm trapped. I know we will get through this but I sure hope I can find some equilibrium, some good humor, about the situation. I think my attitude, in the middle of the night, sucks.


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## nznavo (Aug 9, 2004)

I'm really sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. We were there a while back and it was so hard and distressing. Ds is sleeping really well now (at 23 months) and one of the things that really helped us was a strong sleep schedule. It wasn't a magic bullet, and actually I think he just started sleeping better when he was ready, but his improved sleep also coincided with moving him to a bed in a different room. He was not at all distressed by that change. Now when we do sleep with him, like if we are on vacation or something, none of us get any sleep.

I am not advocating stopping co-sleeping as an answer as I think my son's imrpovement was a combination of a lot of factors, just saying how things went for us.

Also, I have a DH who was committed to helping out at night and DS just wouldn't have any of it. That was so hard. I also know how it is to be too tired to implement change. There comes a point when you just have to.

Good luck! Things will get better.


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## Barbee (Nov 27, 2004)

hi mamas. i'm about ready to lose it. ds has been up every hour. we start our night time ritual at 8:00; bath, jammies, twilight turtle and nursing to sleep. he has one nap at 1:00-about 3:00 every day. i'm not very good at scheduling myself, but i've been pretty good at keeping him in a routine. despite this, he's still up every hour to nurse. the ncss suggests trying to make him fall asleep without nursing. so, we do what they suggest and take him off the nipple before he falls asleep. he does pretty good with this but then just wakes up again the next hour. to top it off, dh snores loudly, so i'm often unable to fall asleep between feedings. lastnight i made him sleep on the couch and today he's mad at me. i'm delirious and worried that i'll never sleep again. i wake up (i use that term loosely since i don't really sleep) feeling resentful and over touched. help me change my attitude mamas.


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## majorsky (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
Drama is right...DD started in with the trying to pinch my boob, latch on/latch off/latch on/pinch pinch pinch routine at some point last night, and I simply "protected" my other boob by putting a hand over it so she couldn't pinch (if I cover it with a shirt she becomes hysterical, but sometimes will forget about pinching if my hand is there). She freaked out. Shrieked as if I were sticking pins into her.

Yep, I experience something similar from my DD when I try to curb her nursing after she's been doing it for hours. It can be really frustrating!! I have those days when I briefly say I'm sick of breastfeeding and I don't want to do it anymore. It's an idle threat -- I'm not going to quit anytime soon.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
So WE are always snappy at each other and nice and gentle to Nora. But we both are finding it harder and harder to have the appropriately gentle tone at 1/3/5 in the morning when she is screaming because she can't pinch and scratch mama's boobie.







:

I'm right there with ya!! DH and I had a long middle-of-the-night fight a couple of weeks ago because DD wasn't interested in sleeping and DH got up (a rare occasion) to help me get DD back to sleep. DH said something disapproving to me (and did it in a shaming way) and I got so p*ssed off at him!!! I couldn't identify at that moment why I was so mad at him because I was delirious from exhaustion, but I figured it out a couple days later and told him to change the way he communicates with me, especially when I'm that stressed and tired. We had a very heated argument in the dark, which I know wasn't conducive to DD falling asleep.









Kristin


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

I am also my babies lovey, and have had trouble introducing a blanket or stuffed animal lovey. She is also strong and determined and knows what she wants, and that is her mommy all night long. Right now my problem isn't getting her to sleep but keeping her asleep. I have to go in and comfort her or nurse her almost every hour before I go to bed and then I end up bringing her in my bed once I go to sleep and she still wakes up almost every hour consistently through the night.

I read to try to wake them up a half hour or so before they usually wake up and nurse then so they dont get "praised with a nursing" for waking up. But she doesnt even want to nurse all the time. It is like she just wakes up to make sure I am still there.


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## Tattiana (Feb 17, 2006)

I haven't posted a lot, but I can totally relate. My 16 month DD has changed our lives as no other child of ours has. With my first 3 (ages 13, 11 and 9) I pretty much night weaned by 4 months-6 months unless they were sick or something, they slept through the night. I co-slept while we were night nursing and they transitioned to the crib. I put them in the crib and they knew what to do. I also had problems with milk supply with all of them and never even made it to a year of breastfeeding despite many efforts to keep up my milk supply.
This time was to be different. I was DETERMINED to do whatever it took to breastfeed. I decided that there would be no night weaning and this time I had the internet so Kellymom was a great resource. She initially had colic and I spent hours daily just trying to get her to sleep. She never slept well. Bad naps and nursed every 2 hours day and night. She's had non-stop congestion for the past year or so and I am sure that has contributed to the bad sleeping. (I am currently trying to do some food elimination to see if I can find the offender to this extremely frustrating congestion/non-stop "colds"). I never intended to co-sleep this long because I just don't sleep well like that, but it is the only way I get any sleep. Many nights it is just a non-stop nurse-a-thon. My back is sore, I am tired of being clawed at all night, and just plain tired. DH is PITIFUL if he loses sleep, not like he is a baby, he just does not function and since he has to drive an hour to work, I want him well rested. PLUS, anytime he has tried to take her she wants to nurse. I have a hard time not sleeping and then getting up to teach Algebra or Life Science (I homeschool). My marriage has taken a hit because we have had little time together and trying to have sex is hard to say the least. I had some AP moms who I was talking to who just seemed like it didn't matter that I can't function and that it strained my marriage or that it was hard to properly school my older children. I felt like that is a TOTAL lack of balance if that is what their parenting was all about. My one DD isn't my only responsibility. I can't take naps most of the time because I am schooling my kids (plus, if she actually naps, I want to accomplish something if I can without her "help"!!!). When she is awake, she clings to me and won't let me accomplish anything and she is awake most of the time I am. If I get up, she won't stay in bed long, she only naps well sometimes and stays up late until I finally get her nursed to sleep (some nights are still a struggle for a couple of hours). Lately, she is resisting falling asleep while nursing and so she walks around crabby because that's the only way she goes to sleep! I have tried loveys, etc. I am it and I am tired. Some days, I am physically ill from exhaustion. I used to get her to sleep and try to lay her in her crib, but I gave up because many times she woke back up and I was back at square one. Sometimes, I wish I never would have backed down on some of those types of things because maybe I would have made progress, but I can only do so much and I only have so much time.
I had hoped that her sleep cycles would get better as she grew, but I see little end in sight. My last hope is that maybe the food elimination I am doing will help, but at this point, I think it is a habit as well. Dr. Jay Gordon's plan just sounds like a way for me to not sleep at all for several nights before getting sick and giving in out of necessity to sleep. Not that it's a bad plan, I just see the depth of the issue DD has.
I, too, feel disappointed. At times when I wanted or started to implement small changes that could have made a difference now, I was so concerned it would hurt my milk supply and so many said to keep up what we were doing I guess that I assumed that at some point, she would improve on her own. Silly me for believing that. So, now, I am not sure what I can do. I think that the behavior is very intrenched and harder to overcome at this stage in the game. I just don't know what to do anymore. I love the idea of having a regular nap time, but DD only goes to sleep while nursing when she is good and ready and that varies within hours each day. We are on a regular schedule for school, and it would be GREAT if I could get her to sleep at the same time each night and regular naps (as I did with my first 3) but I have no idea how to get her to even that point. I keep reading hoping that I will come up with some idea that just may work to get her started in the direction of sleeping at night without a nipple in her mouth, without regular feedings. At this point waking 2 times a night to nurse and going right back to sleep sounds great.
All right, I should actually do something since she is actually napping now, but I just had to join in because I am in the same boat.


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## majorsky (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tattiana* 
My marriage has taken a hit because we have had little time together and trying to have sex is hard to say the least.

No kidding!!! I didn't think our sex life would be so radically changed with a baby. Some days I really, really miss it because it's just not happening anymore.









Kristin


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Lotsofkids - thanks for your post. It was much of what I've heard/read before but it was so helpful to read it again. I know I need to be on a more regular schedule and DD needs an earlier bedtime maybe? It is hard, though, with DH getting home late-ish and dinner needs to happen etc etc etc. But I think for now my big focus will be an earlier and very regular bedtime.

I'm disappointed to hear that NCSS for Toddlers doesn't seem to help people - I posted on that thread asking about it. When I'm lying in bed next to a crawling chatty baby who should be sleeping I think to myself "I will buy that book tomorrow!" How disappointing that it may not hold the relief I'm looking for.

A few thoughts for this thread (since it is 3:30am and why on earth would I be in bed right now??) ...

- At times I have been *very* frustrated with the fact that DH simply doesn't have the equipment to calm DD when she is screaming. At my worst moments I get so frustrated that *I* have to be the one to nurse (to soothe, not necessarily feed). But then I figure DD needs to be able to calm for DH so I try to make sure they get time together when he is the one calming her / coaxing her to sleep, because hopefully she will become more used to it. Is this a pipe dream? Anyone have success with their DH being able to calm a tired baby?

- I don't regret cosleeping at all. I love to wake next to my sweet baby and don't see ending it any time soon. At times I have had her starting the night in the crib because of my own insomnia, and moving her back to our bed the first time she wakes. Mostly this means getting her to sleep in our bed then moving her to the crib once she's fully asleep.

- While I do feel that somewhere I was led astray and that there are things I could have done differently earlier on, I also believe strongly that it is already programmed in a baby to be a sleeper or not. My grandmother has suggested it is hereditary - we all (g-mother, mother, me, and my DD) have had a hard time sleeping. Anyone else see a pattern like this?

- It has been very hard for me that I feel I can't mention the whole sleep issue to most people I know IRL. If I told my mother I'd not only get a shrug and a "you brought this on yourself" but then I'd hear, through other family members, her gossip about how I am trying this weird parenting technique. (Don't even get me started on her issues with nursing past 12 months!) I feel like I have to hide my exhaustion from the other mamas in our playgroup, heck, almost mamas I know, because they are all very mainstream.

- I recently heard about a friend of a friend whose child had terrible sleep issues. She was taken to a specialist who determined that she had different sleep cycles than most people. I hesitate to mention this because I don't know how much of the info I have is correct, but apparantly there are some people who need to sleep on cycles that can be an hour or more off from the regular 24 hour day. So if you are on a 25 hour cycle, imagine how your sleep would be affected if you were trying to fit into a 24 hour cycle. Does anyone know more about this theory? Is it legit? Is there more info out there somewhere? I don't think my DD falls into this category, based on our specific issues, but perhaps it would help other mamas on this thread?

I can hear DD stirring now...


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