# What is your opinion on soy?



## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I've heard good things and bad things. SOme think it's healthy, some don't. What's your take and why?


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## guestmama9916 (Jun 24, 2006)

I think Americans eat too much soy. Its in all processed foods and fast foods. Its an Omega 6 fatty acid which is the one that you want to have very little of. Omega 6 EFAs cause inflammation inside the body which can lead to heart disease. Soybean oil is fragile and goes rancid easily. Rancid oils rob the body of vitamin E. Even Olive Oil, which is a source of vitamin E, will rob your body of vitamin E if its rancid. Soybeans are also high in phytates. Traditionally, soybeans were only eaten once fermented. Fermentation reduces phytates and I think it reduces the phytoestrogens as well. Fermented soy (such as soy sauce) is the only form of soy I'll eat. I recently read about the French Paradox. The paradox is that Americans and the French eat about the same amount of fat per year yet Americans have 2/3rds more heart disease than the French do. What's the difference? The French eat traditional fats such as real butter, real cheese, goose fat, etc. Americans consume soybean oil more than any other fat.







IMO, I don't need soy. Its not the health food it has been made out to be. Unless its in a traditional form, its just another highly processed junk food product.

Kim


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

I agree with kimbernet.

My personal experience is having PCOS which theorized to be caused (one of many possible causes) by estrogen dominance which is caused by consuming unfermented soy, pesticides on produce, hormones in meat and dairy products, synthetic hormones (BCPs) parabens (sp?) and so on. I know I cannot eat unfermented soy because I tend to be hypothyroid, and estrogen dominant which causes weight gain, infertility, miscarriage and stillbirth and a host of other health problems. Plus soy causes me to bloat up and retain water. I'm not sure why, but as soon as I stopped eating soy, I slimmed down quickly. My DP has noticed a huge difference in weight and energy level when he switched to tempeh from soy.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I do agree that too much soy is not good. However, I have hormone issues related to my menstral cycle. When I drink soy milk my mentral issues decrease significally. I stay away from a lot of the fake meat type of soy foods and I can't stand tofu, but I do drink soy milk because it really helps with my monthy cycles. That being said I do not give my ds a lot of soy. He gets the occasional chocolate soy milk as a treat, but that's about it. The same with the girls, the occasional soy milk treat but that's about it.

With EFA the whole idea is to balance the two. A balance of omega-3 and omega-6 is healthy. I increase my omega-3 intake purposely. You can't get away form omega-6, so make sure that the omega-6 consumption is balanced out with an increase of omega-3.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

My opinion on soy is similar to other foods: how processed is it? Soy burgers, hot dogs, soy milk, soy nuggets, etc. are highly processed with many added ingredients. I had a soy milk maker and plain, real soy milk was yucky to me! Real tofu or tempeh is a more natural product. I could, if I so desired, make it at my home. That's often the test of real food for me. Without a factory, I could myself make butter, tallow, a hamburger, flour, broth, etc. But I couldn't make a soy nugget!


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## goodearthmama (Nov 7, 2006)

fermented soy is the only form of soy we consume (ie. organic miso paste, etc)


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Oh yeah, I meant to touch on fermentation. Again, miso is something one can make at home!


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr* 
I do agree that too much soy is not good. However, I have hormone issues related to my menstral cycle. When I drink soy milk my mentral issues decrease significally. I stay away from a lot of the fake meat type of soy foods and I can't stand tofu, but I do drink soy milk because it really helps with my monthy cycles.

That's interesting! Soy makes my cycles HORRIBLE. I had the worst cramps and PMS when my diet was soy-heavy. I think if you are estrogen-deficient, soy can help your symptoms, but if you're like me, with estrogen dominance issues, they can make your symptoms worse.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chicharronita* 
That's interesting! Soy makes my cycles HORRIBLE. I had the worst cramps and PMS when my diet was soy-heavy. I think if you are estrogen-deficient, soy can help your symptoms, but if you're like me, with estrogen dominance issues, they can make your symptoms worse.

Same here.


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## tylertyler (Feb 13, 2007)

Soy gives some people trouble with their resp. and some with their bowels,its not great for everyone,but better than cow dairy products.
Dairy= cheese/milk/iceceam causes formation of mucous,conjestion of sinus passages,lungs,broncho,ear infections,coughs,allergies.
I found it best to use Almond milk or rice milk instead.

TYLER


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 
Soy gives some people trouble with their resp. and some with their bowels,its not great for everyone,but better than cow dairy products.
Dairy= cheese/milk/iceceam causes formation of mucous,conjestion of sinus passages,lungs,broncho,ear infections,coughs,allergies.

That used to be the case for me. I had stopped drinking pasteurized and homogenized milk in my teens because it caused digestive problems. When I was in my twenties, I started drinking copious amounts of soy milk and that's how I got those hormonal problems.

Thankfully, about five years ago I learned about the benefits of raw dairy. I have no digestive or other problems drinking/eating it. This surprised me when I started, since I'm Asian.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

That's interesting. See, we have a lot of thsoe issues that you say dairy causes. And I'm wanting to try alternatives to the processed food we eat. The almond or rice milk could be a good idea. I don't want to eat too much soy, and if we're drinking soy milk, that could potentially be a LOT of soy intake lol


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 
Soy gives some people trouble with their resp. and some with their bowels,its not great for everyone,but better than cow dairy products.
Dairy= cheese/milk/iceceam causes formation of mucous,conjestion of sinus passages,lungs,broncho,ear infections,coughs,allergies.


I used to get ear infections all the time, including when I went vegan, but I haven't gotten any since only buying organic dairy. There were alot of other improvements made too though so I'm not saying for sure that was the reason. Still, there's nothing like eating vegan cheese and soy milk to make you appreciate the real thing.







I'll never go back to the immitation stuff. If you don't eat dairy you should make your own rice or almond milk at home. It'll be fresher and healthier than the packaged kind.


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## lulu1213 (Jan 22, 2007)

sorry, OT here - don't forget that french people in general eat a more balanced diet too! bread is fresh. they eat fruits and vegetables relatively locally grown and in season. lunch is typically the big meal in france and dinner is lighter. and they exercise and walk more.
breakfast is very light. lunch and dinner both would probably consist of some combination of the following:
entree (mixed salad, quiche, etc.), main course with protein, vegetable and carbohydrate source, green salad, yogurt or cheese and bread, and dessert (often buttery and creamy!) this could also include wine, coffee and chocolate
one more thing about the french culture of eating that may apply to the soy question: they tend to be very traditional and eat within the confines of their cuisine. i once heard an (american) nutritionist describe it this way: if you're on an ice float at the north pole and a plane flies by and mangos drop out, would you rather eat the mangos or a fresh fish that you catch from ice fishing?

i've wondered the same thing about soy - sometimes it feels very synthetic to be eating/drinking it. i'm wondering if there aren't other sources for the beneficial elements that are more closely related to a typical american's diet - the antioxidants and low cholesterol protein...

also, i think it does depend on your hormone situation... i've got endo and i tend to do better when i avoid the xeno and phytoestrogens.


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## paisleypoet (Nov 17, 2006)

I'm a little confused and overwhelmed. My dd is allergic to dairy and was put on a soy formula for older babies. I stopped BFing at 1 year due to all of her allergies. I am also a vegetarian and have soy milk in my cereal every morning, eat tofu and other "fake" meats made with soy protein. I LOVE those things. I don't eat them every day though. I also have ovarian cysts. Could it be related? I'm worried about giving my dd too much soy, but she needs the fat and calories. What can I do?


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## mamak05 (Mar 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paisleypoet* 
I'm a little confused and overwhelmed. My dd is allergic to dairy and was put on a soy formula for older babies. I stopped BFing at 1 year due to all of her allergies. I am also a vegetarian and have soy milk in my cereal every morning, eat tofu and other "fake" meats made with soy protein. I LOVE those things. I don't eat them every day though. I also have ovarian cysts. Could it be related? I'm worried about giving my dd too much soy, but she needs the fat and calories. What can I do?

Check out the http://www.westonaprice.org site for some other formula options for your DD - maybe they will help. Diet and health are certainly related. There are others here who could give you more info on this than me, though. I have learned a lot in the traditional foods forum - check it out and see what you might find. (You can be vegetarian and eat traditional foods!)


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## mamak05 (Mar 20, 2006)

To the OP, I agree with the other posters. I have cut most soy products from my diet, by focussing on eating whole foods and foods I can make at home. Cutting processed soy been a byproduct of a lifestyle change - not because I don't like soy or had issues with it.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 

it's ever so fun and engaging to cut things out of your diet but for most people eating a variety of whole foods will be fine. soy can be included in that unless there's a specific allergy involved.

xoa

The problem is, a lot of people have allergies and dont know it.


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## marie1080 (Aug 5, 2006)

I have several thoughts about soy.

One, just like any other food too much of it is probably bad.

Two, I would worry about the estrogen issues. The whole estrogen replacement therapy/breast cancer connection has been in the news a lot lately. Soy is a lot less estrogen, but still...

I do use some soy. I'm vegetarian and occasionally use some of the processed fake meats as a convenience food. (Less than once a week.)

As a child, we ate a LOT of soy. Probably ate it nearly every day. I have heard about connections of soy and menstrual problems- which I definitely had. Also have heard about soy and thyroid problems- which I have. Who knows?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

After reading this I feel that soy should be an occasional part of a diet, but not overused. I think that switching to soy milk would make soy too much of a part of our diet. I bought some rice milk instead today, vanilla-flavored, and it's really good. I'm trying to slowly introduce organic, natural replacements to the usual junk we eat, and see if it makes a difference.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Soy foods are highly processed. I would limit the consumption of soy products, especially those that are not fermented. A bit of organic tofu here and there won't harm, and I would never feed a child soy milk of any kind. I would never touch non- organic soy.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

We eat the occasional tamari soy sauce or miso - very occasional. Maybe monthly we eat tofu meatballs homemade (mmm.... - my carnivore dh loves them better than meat!) and maybe once or twice a month we eat the Annie's psketty o's things with the little tofu balls in them. So prob 2x a month??

I think in moderation it is ok unless you have some sort of sensitivity, but even as vegetarians, it is not a regular part of dd or my diet.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
just a question out of genuine curiosity - why bother with "milks" at all, especially rice milk which basically has nothing in it unless it's fortified, in which case you could just as well take a vitamin?

i just don't see it as necessary to have any white liquids around for drinking.. we drink water, bubbled water, herb tea, tea.. occasionally juice.. and very occasionally (like 1x every 3 months) something like a hot chocolate, which will have milk or soymilk in it.

it seems like for so many people the question is soy milk or cow's milk or goat's milk or rice milk or.... and not milk or no milk.. and i don't really understand why (and i am not not talking about babies / small children here, who i do believe need milk).

xoa

I've thought about this too. To be honest, I think it's just the culture/society --you have milk with tea/coffee and cereal. How could you make hot chocolate without some kind of milk? So, no we don't need milk but historically, milk has been a way to get dense nutrients fairly easily because it is relatively easy to keep milk-producing domesticated animals and there are things you can do with milk such as make yogurt, kefir and cheese. These are traditional foods that require milk. So technically, no, milk is not a necessary thing but culturally, it is.

That being said, I have drastically reduced how much soy I consume. I stick to tempeh, fermented soy sauce and a little bit of tofu here and there. In baked foods, I use rice milk or plain water. Where I used to soy milk for the fat content, I mix rice milk and coconut milk. I do make yogurt for myself out of cow's milk and eat raw dairy cheese. There's too much conflict out there for me so I eat based on what makes me feel good intestinally and hormonally and overall. I think I'm in a good place and I also think that this is what's most important--eating the best way for you. I have not found that re-introducing yogurt and raw cheese in my diet has increased mucous or made my existing allergies worse and it certainly doesn't cause me the serious stomach issues that soy did. I"m going with it.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
right, but.. none of the examples listed above have anything to do with drinking milk from a glass, you know? i really don't understand what drives people (again, not babies and small children) to believe they need a milk (or soymilk or whatever) to drink with their meals, and that that's a healthy part of a normal diet.. i mean we all understand how acculturated we are and we've had free milk in schools and all that, but come on.. if you're already deciding not to have milk with your dinner, why replace it with another milky white beverage, especially if you're concerned about for example soy?

i do think milk foods can be a part of a healthy diet - cheeses and yogurts and etc. - and maybe a bit of milk here and there, but i really don't feel that milk-drinking is a particularly healthy part of an adult diet for most people in most places most of the time.

ah well..

xoa

Gotcha! I agree.


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## tylertyler (Feb 13, 2007)

I agree,myself and family all of us dont ever drink any sort of milk type products. Even as a baby,no milk. Only breastmilk as an infant.
People have been brainwashed to think milk is needed.
www.nomilk.com
We only drink water and herbtea,no milks in tea or cereals.
TYLER


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

I know what you mean. The only time I drink "milk" is homemade nut milk (almond, hazelnut or cashew) that I love to froth and put in homemade chai tea, cooking and baking (when a recipe calls for milk).

But to drink milk, just to drink it? Never.


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
i really don't understand what drives people (again, not babies and small children) to believe they need a milk (or soymilk or whatever) to drink with their meals, and that that's a healthy part of a normal diet.

Well, it tastes great! That is probably the primary reason people want a substitute for dairy if they can't have it. If you have no health issues with consuming dairy, it's a quick and easy way to get nutrients.


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## aprilibarra (Mar 16, 2006)

soy should be limited, I can't believe that it would be a formidable alternative to dairy or breastmilk.

Milk is awesome to drink and raw milk is a nutriionally complete food. With a meal it certainly seems that the enzymes would assist in digestion and absorption of nutrients.


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## tylertyler (Feb 13, 2007)

The situation changes only if and when you have your own cow. And this cow does NOT get antibiotics. This cow does NOT eat feed with pesticide/herbaside. This cow does not get fed hormones (to fatten them).
Otherwise this is what is in all milk products.

The media brainwashes people into thinking milk is good for everyone at a cost of billions spent on marketing (TV adds,paper adds,Magazine adds........)
Do you realize there is more calcium in brocolli? Do you realize that 3/4th of the planet does not drink milk and they do fine without it?
TYLER www.notmilk.com


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

I haven't done enough research to back up my feelings. But I avoid eating large servings of soy. I don't drink soymilk, eat soybeans, tofu, or that sort of thing.

But I'm not so freaked out about it that I'll not buy a cereal or something if it has soy in it yk?

Something about it just doesn't sit right with me, but I'm not exactly sure why yet.


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 
The situation changes only if and when you have your own cow. And this cow does NOT get antibiotics. This cow does NOT eat feed with pesticide/herbaside. This cow does not get fed hormones (to fatten them).
Otherwise this is what is in all milk products.

It's best if you have a cow or have access to one on pasture, but if not Organic Pastures sells raw milk from cows that don't eat grains.

Quote:

The media brainwashes people into thinking milk is good for everyone at a cost of billions spent on marketing (TV adds,paper adds,Magazine adds........)
The media as funded by Big Agra Milk, sure.

On top of it, they tell you the lie that skim and non-fat milk is better for you than whole-fat, when you need the fat to help your body absorb the nutrients. In addition, the first two often have non-fat dry milk powder added to thicken the milk, which contains small amounts of oxidized fat. It is definitely an adulterated product.

Quote:

Do you realize that 3/4th of the planet does not drink milk and they do fine without it?
But if they had some, I'd bet they like it too!


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

If 3/4 of the population doesnt drink it, which 1/4 does (besides Americans)?


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barose* 
If 3/4 of the population doesnt drink it, which 1/4 does (besides Americans)?

I really have a hard time believing that statistic. That may be true for cow milk, but what about goat milk, sheep milk, camel milk, buffalo milk, etc. These have been consumed for thousands of years by people around the globe.

Some food for thought...

"Hundreds of millions of Hindus have used dairy products for many thousands of years, lending credibility to the notion that dairy products can be safe to consume. *To ignore this fact is to allow ourselves to be blinded by our reluctance to even consider evidence that challenges our own personal convictions and the current medical belief.*"

http://www.ffl.org/ffl_pf_milk.php


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I really have a hard time believing that statistic. That may be true for cow milk, but what about goat milk, sheep milk, camel milk, buffalo milk, etc. These have been consumed for thousands of years by people around the globe.

Some food for thought...

"Hundreds of millions of Hindus have used dairy products for many thousands of years, lending credibility to the notion that dairy products can be safe to consume. *To ignore this fact is to allow ourselves to be blinded by our reluctance to even consider evidence that challenges our own personal convictions and the current medical belief.*"

http://www.ffl.org/ffl_pf_milk.php

Ha ha! Exactly why I asked the question.







Now I'm not a milk drinker myself, but I'm sure more than a mere 1/4 of the population does.


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
I really have a hard time believing that statistic. That may be true for cow milk, but what about goat milk, sheep milk, camel milk, buffalo milk, etc. These have been consumed for thousands of years by people around the globe.

According to this article, nine out of ten glasses of milk come from cows; the rest are from the other domesticated animals. It goes on to list the different animals and the countries that use them the most.

Remember the news story about the world's oldest woman who passed away last year? She thought her longevity had to do with drinking fresh donkey's milk every day.

Quote:

http://www.ffl.org/ffl_pf_milk.php
Interesting site! Thanks for the URL. It's good to be reminded about the importance of dairy in India.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chicharronita* 
According to this article, nine out of ten glasses of milk come from cows; the rest are from the other domesticated animals.

Well cows have a greater production rate, I don't think that means that 9 out of 10 *people* drink cow milk vs other milk. According to this link goat milk is the most consumed:

"more people in the world drink milk from goats than from any other animal."

"The goat played an important role in providing a vital part of the diet for early sailors and explorers. It is recorded (Horwitz, 2002) that a goat accompanied Captain Cook on the Endeavour and wore a silver collar which said "The globe twice encircled, this the Goat, the second to the nurse of Jove, is thus rewarded for her never-failing milk."

In addition, according to Chinese medicine, goat milk is believed to be of particular benefit to the throat and trachea. As described by Lee Su-Tan during the Ming dynasty and now published in "Pen Ts'ao Kang Mu" by the National Institute of Chinese medicine, goat milk is a mild tonic food suitable for general good health."

http://www.dgc.co.nz/page.cfm?id=8

And if anyone else is as big a nerd as me and wants more info on milk history and uses here's some good reads:

Camel milk:

"From the Rift Valley of Africa to Central Asia you often hear it said that camel milk can cure; diabetes, tuberculosis, stomach ulcers, gastro-enteritis, cancer are all claimed to be cured."

"In Russia, Kazakhstan and India there are many examples of camel milk - as much as a litre a day - being prescribed to hospital patients to aid recovery from tuberculosis, Crohn's disease and diabetes."

http://www.new-agri.co.uk/05-1/focuson/focuson5.html

Water buffalo:

"For those with epicurean sensibilities, real mozzarella or Mozzarella di Bufala - that fresh, stringy, textured, very white cheese - can only be made from buffalo milk. Anything other than that is considered inferior. In Italy, it would not be considered as mozzarella at all."

http://www.liketocook.com/50226711/w...milk_mmmmm.php

"Many Asian countries depend on the water buffalo as its primary bovine species. It is valuable for its meat and milk as well as the labour it performs. As of 1992 the Asian population was estimated at 141 million. The fat content of buffalo milk is the highest amongst farm animals and the butterfat is a major source of ghee in some Asian countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_buffalo

Soy:

"Making soy milk was one of the early methods. Soy milk is nothing more than a milky liquid that results from boiling and mashing whole beans, so we can assume that it was not long before soy milk was 'invented.' Initially it may have been eaten as bean meal soup. Even today in China soy milk remains a drink that is processed and consumed in simple ways, though it is often sweetened and occasionally salted.

In soy milk processing, the Chinese were perhaps inspired by their nomadic, animal herding, milk guzzling northern neighbours, the Mongols. Some scholars recognise this possibility. Soy milk after all looks like, (but certainly does not taste like) dairy milk. And like that drawn from the cow's udder, it is mainly consumed by the Chinese for breakfast."

http://www.eatingchina.com/articles/soystory.html

I will have to look up donkey milk now


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

my opinion is, everything in moderation.


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## Alohamelly (Jul 1, 2005)

I haven't given in to the soy hype and I've only done minimal research. We eat a lot of soy products, but we are an Asian family and eat soy in an Asian diet way - tofu, lots of miso, soybeans, etc. We only use soymilk as well. Maybe I haven't researched because I don't think we'd change our diet anyway. I think we have a pretty good diet (when I'm not pregnant - right now it's iffy cause I've been so sick) and it's balanced so we're not just eating soy products all the time.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 
The situation changes only if and when you have your own cow. And this cow does NOT get antibiotics. This cow does NOT eat feed with pesticide/herbaside. This cow does not get fed hormones (to fatten them).
Otherwise this is what is in all milk products.

Do you realize there is more calcium in brocolli?

There are many ways of getting fresh, unprocessed milk from clean-living, pastured cows that do not receive any abx or hormones or chemicals. Having a cow of your own is not the only option. (And btw, conventionally-managed dairy cows don't get hormones to fatten them, they get hormones to force a higher volume of milk production - not all dairies use it, and organic dairies never do.)

Everything I've seen indicates milk has considerably more calcium than broccoli (and nearly every other food). The calcium in raw dairy is more available than in pasteurized dairy, because the enzymes that help our bodies to assimilate the minerals are still intact in raw dairy foods. Pasteurization kills the enzymes (no enzyme activity is in fact the test for successful pasteurization).

My opinion of soy - only in moderation, preferably fermented, only organic and non-GMO, no soy oil (too highly polyunsaturated, easily goes rancid during extraction, too much omega-6), no soy isolates or imitations of other foods. I would not make it a staple of my diet, but I'm not vehement about avoiding it altogether. I use real fermented miso paste, shoyu and tamari, very occasionally will eat edamame and tofu in small amounts. Things like roasted soy "nuts" tie my stomach in knots.


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## tylertyler (Feb 13, 2007)

www.notmilk.com
www.nomilk.com
http://www.holisticmed.com/bgh/

Do as you please
From a health prespective,all dairy causes conjestion in the sinus,ears,lungs,throat. Thus the chronic allergies,sinus inf,ear inf,coughs.......
By elliminating all dairy you elliminate these chronic complaints. verry simple.

Tyler


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Tempeh kills me







, there is nothing on earth that will make me fart like tempeh. (I like it, so that's a shame.) Fermented or not, it's a disaster on my GI system.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

PS I'm gonna go have a good swig of kefir







.


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## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 
From a health prespective,all dairy causes conjestion in the sinus,ears,lungs,throat. Thus the chronic allergies,sinus inf,ear inf,coughs.......
By elliminating all dairy you elliminate these chronic complaints. verry simple.

There's a big difference between conventional milk (which I agree has many problems) and raw, organic dairy from pastured cows (or goats or sheep or water buffalo or camels or yaks or whatever). I have no problems with the things you list, nor do my children, and we consume a significant amount of raw, organic, grassfed dairy. Some people can't have any dairy without bad reactions, some people thrive on high-quality dairy. Factory farm, processed, commodity milk is not even in the same category. The arguments against milk on those links are overly simplistic and are talking about the factory farm white stuff labelled "milk" in the grocery store.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
my opinion is, everything in moderation.

Not everything. No unfermented soy, _at all_.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
sorry, but your statement is just not convincing me that eating soybeans is bad for me in any way..

xoa


I mean for _me_. Read my first post in this thread. Not eveyone can eat everything in so-called "moderation".


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

I find soy to be fine in moderate quantities. If someone is having a problem that an elimination -- of any food -- might be a good test for, then by all means go for it, but I have never had a problem with it and have friends who have benefitted from it. And some who do better without it -- fewer of those, though.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 

seemed directed towards the conversation in general - otherwise you would have written something like "not everything. no unfermented soy for me, at all." i think we all agree that everything in moderation doesn't apply to, say, peanuts in the peanut-allergic-will-die-if-touched kid.. this is no different, really.

I think the same thing could have been said about your post too. "Everything in moderation...for most people" or something like that. Anyway, sorry for the flak







strong PMS hormones are kicking my butt.


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## guestmama9916 (Jun 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
And if anyone else is as big a nerd as me and wants more info on milk history and uses here's some good reads:

Camel milk:

"From the Rift Valley of Africa to Central Asia you often hear it said that camel milk can cure; diabetes, tuberculosis, stomach ulcers, gastro-enteritis, cancer are all claimed to be cured."


I'm a big nerd too. Did you know that milking a Camel is really difficult? They only give milk for 90 seconds at a time so its hard to get big quantities from them. There is a camel dairy farmer out west though. I saw him on the news just recently.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 
Do as you please
From a health prespective,all dairy causes conjestion in the sinus,ears,lungs,throat. Thus the chronic allergies,sinus inf,ear inf,coughs.......
By elliminating all dairy you elliminate these chronic complaints. verry simple.

I know that the whole dairy consumption = mucous equation in humans has been touted as the truth for a long while now, but in recent years this assumption has been called into question. See the following:

"Milk Consumption Does Not Lead to Mucus Production or Occurrence of Asthma" in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, Vol. 24, No. 90006, 547S-555S (2005) - Abstract

"Relationship between milk intake and mucus production in adult volunteers challenged with rhinovirus-2." in the The American Review of Respitory Disease, February 1990 141(2):352-6 - Abstract

From the Australasian Society of Clinical Immunology and Allergy, their "Milk, Mucus and Cough" information page. For more references you can check the studies they cited at the end of the page which range from 1990-2002.

That being said, I don't think that you can accurately state that "all dairy" causes all the symptoms you listed for _all people_. If that's the case for yourself, then by all means please avoid dairy, but if the argument is that folks can't make the argument against soy from their own personal experience than conversely we can't make the same arguments about dairy.

In individuals with a bonafied diary _allergy_ then certainly it can manifest itself in asthma/mucousy ways. In that case then I'd certainly suggest eliminating dairy from your diet (well...only if I observed the same results from raw dairy from good, clean sources as the pasturization/homogenization of industrial milk causes it's own set of health issues).


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## tylertyler (Feb 13, 2007)

My post was a reply to Dairy,Cow milk not soy.
Some children do have severe soy milk allergies.
These medical journals you posted are written by paid media funded by dairy lobbyists hired to promote more use of dairy/milk as its a billion dollar industry.

Such a simple thing to abstain from the intake of all dairy for a few months to see what ailments do clear up............isn't it? why not see for yourself? Many kids stop dairy, no more ear infections 100% cured.
Many kids stop dairy,no more sinus conjestion........
no more allergies.................no more digestive problems,no more respt. problems,no more chronic coughs,no more re-oc. colds..............see for yourself. Sometimes its what you STOP drinking/eating that will get you well.

Tyler


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
don't worry. i am a little allergic to people assuming that if they can't eat something, no one should..

I know what you mean!

Quote:

for some reason i have been getting a lot of this in my real life lately ("but flour is POISON, it doesn't matter if you're stone grinding your own and only eating it once a month, it's POISON and if you give bread to your son you're a bad mother" blah blah blah) and am perhaps a little sensitive to any hint of that online, real or imagined, just now..
I used to think the same thing about grains...however, Price's research suggests plenty of people were doing well eating lots of grains.

There was a post somewhere else on MDC about tolerance to others. I wish I could remember where it was....but it really made an impression on me.


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## barose (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluebottle* 
don't worry. i am a little allergic to people assuming that if they can't eat something, no one should.. for some reason i have been getting a lot of this in my real life lately ("but flour is POISON, it doesn't matter if you're stone grinding your own and only eating it once a month, it's POISON and if you give bread to your son you're a bad mother" blah blah blah) and am perhaps a little sensitive to any hint of that online, real or imagined, just now..

xoa

I also dont like the "everything in moderation" assumption either. Not _everything_ and a lot of people dont even know what so-called "moderation" is.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylertyler* 

Such a simple thing to abstain from the intake of all dairy for a few months to see what ailments do clear up............isn't it?

Not necessarily. I took my DS off milk and fed him a vegan diet thinking it would cure him of ear infections, etc. Well it didn't. He still got sick and also lost a lot of weight, very soon after the switch, and with his metabolism it's been very hard getting him to gain weight. He now eats organic dairy products and hasn't had another ear infection. So I do think it's a matter of milk quality that makes the difference. Just like organic soy milk is superior to GMO soy milk, organic dairy is superior to conventional dairy. They shouldn't be lumped together, they're _completely_ different foods imo.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22* 
So I do think it's a matter of milk quality that makes the difference. Just like organic soy milk is superior to GMO soy milk, organic dairy is superior to conventional dairy. They shouldn't be lumped together, they're _completely_ different foods imo.

I agree. And I would say raw dairy is a completely different food than pasteurized organic dairy. My kids (and myself) have never had an ear infection, allergy, or any of the other chronic problems pp listed being associated with dairy and they are milk FIENDS. But they get very fresh raw dairy with an occasional non-homogenized, pasteurized batch thrown in during shortages. Many people feel these symptoms, as well as the excess mucus production discussed earlier, are results of the processing of milk.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Many recipes call for milk, and I like it in my cereal. We don't really drink it much at all though. The rice milk I bought is fortified. Only our son drinks milk. My huband and I both hate it. I am not interested in switching to soy milk after reading this, and I'm working with rice milk right now. What would you suggest for milk for cooking/cereal? Organic cow milk? Or some other alternative?


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## Cheeriogal (Feb 27, 2007)

This has been an interesting read. My kids are all big milk drinkers - we go through 4-5 gallons a week at our house. I hardly touch the stuff - just occasionally on cereal, same for DH. However, my husband's mother lives with us, and has started keeping Chocolate Soy Milk in the refrigerator for herself. She's really into supplements and what I consider to be off-beat, overpriced foods. I would rather we just eat a varied diet, with lots of fresh fruits and veggies than try to feed our bodies with pill and potions.

I know the soy milk is appealing to my kids, but I don't really want them having it. I've read about it mimicking estrogen and this is not something my daughters need. I need to find a tactful way to tell her that she needs to not share it with them. I honestly don't think it's very good for her either - she's takes thyroid medication and I've read that soy can interfere with it. But I think I'll just start with the kids, and maybe my explanation will make her think about it.


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## Chicharronita (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheeriogal* 
However, my husband's mother lives with us, and has started keeping Chocolate Soy Milk in the refrigerator for herself.

Have you taken a look at the ingredients?! It's bad enough that regular boxed soy milk is pasteurized, fortified with questionable ingredients like worthless vitamin D2, but doesn't the chocolate-flavored ones contain a lot of sugar? It used to when I used to drink it. That stuff tastes great! But it was incredibly bad for me.

I'm surprised your MIL is drinking it when she has thyroid issues. That's one of the first things they tell you to give up if you have them (I have many friends with thyroid problems, unfortunately, and they are extremely anti-soy).


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## tylertyler (Feb 13, 2007)

More info on soy warnings
www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com
Searchbox: type soy

TYLER

(almond milk ..........try it)


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