# 3 yo still in diapers, help me undestand



## natashaccat (Apr 4, 2003)

Hi all,
I've started babysitting a 3 yo who is still in diapers and it's kind of freaking me out. Both my dd's PL before they were 2 yo and it just feels wierd to diaper a child this old, it's definately pushing my cultural comfort zone of hygene and personal privacy, kwim?

The mom tells me that he simply isn't interested and she doesn't want to push and I totally respect that. What I need from you guys is a little help in not feeling wierd about it, like perhaps some insight into what this child might be thinking and feeling. I'm sure that he can sense my discomfort with diapers and I don't want to do or say something that will hurt his feelings or make the situation at home worse.

FWIW his home situation is kind of bad, lots of sibling fighting. His parents are very loving but they are struggling with an older special needs child and both parents have difficulty with basic stuff like consistant discipline.


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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

my two girls both PL'ed at 3 yrs 2 months. Boys in particular seem to be trained later considering the experiences we have with friends.

Since pullups cost more than large diapers, if he really just isnt taking to PL right now, there's really no point in letting him wet and soil big boy pants or use more expensive pull up diapers.

He sounds like most boys I know, but again, its my experience, and not anyone elses. If yours were trained by 2, and most other kids you know were also, then its not your experience.

Does it help to know that I think its very normal? Or that other people do?


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## canadiangranola (Oct 1, 2004)

LOTS of little boys don't PL before three. My ds is 39 months old. He is very verbal, intelligent, charming, funny and generally wonderful to be with. He pees in the potty. He is completely uninterested in pooping in the potty. We have a loving, relatively non chaotic (as much as is possiblt with two young kids) home life, we are stable, good marriage, etc.). He just doesn't want to poop in the potty. He knows when he has to poop. He will go outside and do it on the lawn if the dor is unlocked and he is naked. I think he is normal (well...maybe not the lawn thing? lol)

Let it be. Change his diaper, offer the potty if he wants it, and whatever you do, don't shame him.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

If a child is truly not interested, there is not much one can do, IMO. My ds is 5 and today he used a toilet for poop for the third time in his life, the last time being over a year ago. He is not comfortable with the sitting position and prefers to stand with a diaper. He has not routinely worn diapers since he was 2 1/2. He tells me when he needs one for poop and I put one on at that time. I think that our relationship is more important than toilet training and would rather not coerce, manipulate, or bribe him (not that it would even be possible to bribe him. There is nothing he wants more than what he wants).


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

from my experience, 3 is the average age age for beginning PL. there are kids on both sides of that age range, but 3 is pretty well within the typical range.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I have heard of lots of 3 yr. olds still in diapers, too... but I will admit it would probably make me uncomfortable to change a child that age's diaper. I guess you'll get used to it, though!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

If I were the parent of this child, i would want to know what the caregiver is thinking. You can pass a lot 'stuff' onto a baby and so the parent needs to know you're not OK with this.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I thought 3 was average? My son pl'd around 3rd bday. You can't force them, obviously, so if they aren't interested, what can you do? They'll become self conscious soon enough.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

My son is 3.25 and he is now pee trained, but still poops in his underwear or a pull-up if he is wearing one. I think this progression is typical, especially with boys!


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## kati6110 (Feb 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *canadiangranola* 
He knows when he has to poop. He will go outside and do it on the lawn if the dor is unlocked and he is naked. I think he is normal (well...maybe not the lawn thing? lol)









I am so relieved to hear that someone else's children do this too! ds will just rip his clothes off and poo in the yard while he and ds1 are outside playing. The only way I could keep him from doing this is if I literally followed him around all day long.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

I know what your mean. My DD has taken a LONG time (IMO) to PL. She wasn't consistent with using the potty until she was over 3, and at 4.5 she still wears a diaper to bed. To be honest, I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with putting a diaper on her- she's just so big. But in my DD's case, I truly believe that she is just not physiologically ready to be dry at night. She really does want to be done with diapers, but her body isn't cooperating. She has no idea that she's peeing in the middle of the night. And on the few nights she has stayed dry, it's been a surprise to her.

I know the general wisdom is that girls are easier to PT than boys, but that hasn't been my experience.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

My oldest daughter was completely done by her second birthday.

My son didn't potty learn until he was four years and three months old.

My baby-girl just started last week, and she is three years and five months old.

Seems pretty normal to me!


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I think the question you need to ask yourself is WHY does it make you so uncomfortable? what is your cultural comfort zone anyway?







not trying to be snarky just trying to understand a bit further.









or is it just seeing a child so big in diapers? because I can certainly understand that! (DS is 2.5 and not a bit interested in PL atm) also do you think they just don't have time to work with him on it? from your post it sounds like there might be other issues at play here.


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## P-chan (Jan 23, 2004)

Please don't feel weird about it. The little guy is probably thinking and feeling that he's just not ready yet. My son turned three in May and is still in diapers. For boys especially, it's definitely within the range of normal.

What is it exactly that's pushing your comfort zone of hygiene and privacy? Even if he were putting everything in the potty, you'd still likely be highly involved with wiping, re-dressing, other private acts of the toileting experience, no? (I ask in all sincerity, as I'm still doing the diaper thing). Maybe what's unusual for you is just being so involved in another child's diapering, esp. as it's a boy when your experience is with your daughters (of course, if you've got loads of experience with child care, that's not it either).

If it's just that it feels unseemly to you to be putting a diaper on a 3-year-old, please remember that by changing his diapers, you're meeting him where he is developmentally right now. And that's something to take pride in, not feel weird about.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natashaccat* 
Hi all,
I've started babysitting a 3 yo who is still in diapers and it's kind of freaking me out. Both my dd's PL before they were 2 yo and it just feels wierd to diaper a child this old, it's definately pushing my cultural comfort zone of hygene and personal privacy, kwim?

The mom tells me that he simply isn't interested and she doesn't want to push and I totally respect that. What I need from you guys is a little help in not feeling wierd about it, like perhaps some insight into what this child might be thinking and feeling. I'm sure that he can sense my discomfort with diapers and I don't want to do or say something that will hurt his feelings or make the situation at home worse.

FWIW his home situation is kind of bad, lots of sibling fighting. His parents are very loving but they are struggling with an older special needs child and both parents have difficulty with basic stuff like consistant discipline.

I understand your discomfort. All six of my kids knew how to use the toilet by the tim ethey were able to get up on it. No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet. I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.
The toilet is the most sanitary and hygenic place to urinate and defecate, when living inside a city/house.

Since you are watching this child, can you help him learn to use the toilet?
It does become difficult when they have spent their entire life using diapers, but most children would rather not defecate/urinate on themselves.








Hope something gets resolved for you.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

Well, you can always offer him use of a potty while you are watching him. Then you can see for yourself if it is just a matter of his parents not seeing that he is ready or if he really just isn't developmentally ready yet. I am not saying to push it, but just to offer it a few times a day to him.

The age thing doesn't seem to weird to me. My daughter was 2.5 when she was pee trained, but nearly 3 before she stopped demanding a diaper to poo in. My son turned 2 in June and is just now starting to show real interest in the potty. While he is awake he does all his bathroom business in a potty, but I wouldn't consider him potty trained because he wets himself during nearly every nap and cannot stay dry at night at all (usually actually leaks out a diaper too).... oh, and if we go anywhere he needs a diaper as he gets too distracted to use a potty. So, I still can see we have a long ways to go... he may be 3 or 4 before he is fully ready to use the potty at all times. I make the potty very available to him, but I don't push it and I never, ever, ever get after him or get frustrated by him wetting his pants. He just isn't totally there developmentally yet.

So, I don't think it is unusual that a 3 year old may not be developmentally ready yet. However, it doesn't hurt to leave a potty sitting out and let him know that he is welcome to use it anytime he wants and then just see what happens.


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## natashaccat (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
I think the question you need to ask yourself is WHY does it make you so uncomfortable? what is your cultural comfort zone anyway?







not trying to be snarky just trying to understand a bit further.









or is it just seeing a child so big in diapers? because I can certainly understand that! (DS is 2.5 and not a bit interested in PL atm) also do you think they just don't have time to work with him on it? from your post it sounds like there might be other issues at play here.

Oh yes this is an issue with me, I'm not judging the parent's choice to respect her child's timeline.

I don't really want to get into a debate over diapering but just so ya'll know where I'm coming from I've used Eliminication Communication principles with our children so it just feels not age appropriate to diaper a child of this age. Anyway, it's good to hear that this is very common and that I'm not contributing to parental neglect.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

What does "PL"stand for?


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet. I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.

You don't think? This hasn't been my experience. In my experience children do wake up one day and decide to: use the potty, walk, learn to eat with utensils, wean, etc.

My DD is 3 and she wears pull-ups to bed, so she's not fully potty learned (PL for the PP). But she can change her own pull-up, get a new one, throw the old one away etc. She requests help wiping her but for poop - because she's done it incompletely before and found it on her underwear.

So, I agree with the other posters who suggested that even if he was using the toilet, you might have to help him - either by wiping or getting his pants back over his but or making sure he washes up well.

I suspect he may not be thinking or feeling a whole lot about it right now, save that this is his routine. My Dd thinks nothing of yelling "I need someone to wipe my butt" when she's done.

As far as encouraging it, I think being around a slightly older boy who uses the toilet would do wonders. He needs someone like him that he can relate to in that respect - not all you big grown-up who can drive cars and use the stove.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

PL = potty learning

DS just NOW is finally consistently going both in the potty at 3y9m. I admit to not pushing it much at all before 3 as he was afraid of sitting on the potty for a long time before that and I was either pregnant or had a newborn the whole time he was 2. I had not really heard of EC or thought of it as a viable possiblity when he was a baby. But just in the last couple of weeks something "clicked" in him and he realized he could do it.

Does the little guy even want to sit on the potty? For us, initially a reward system worked to get him to try it (stickers, later m&ms and matchbox cars), but after awhile he did not seem to care. By that point, he knew how to go, and could hold it till he got to the potty, just did not WANT to. So then, I started making sure we were going to fun places and doing fun things a lot, but we could not leave or start the fun thing till he went potty first. That has seemed to work best for him. Does the mom want you to help work with him, like try sitting him on it every diaper change or certain times? I can see why she would not want to clean up pee and poop off her floor and off underwear all the time though too.


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

My son started using the potty when he was about 18 months old, and I also have been occasionally babysitting 3-year-olds who still use diapers.

At the risk of inviting much displeasure (and knowing that my experience is unusual in our culture) I have to say that it seems that kids potty-learn much later these days then they used to. A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did. Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.

A HUGE light went on when I understood the principles of EC, which I did use with my son to help him get out of diapers. (I didn't read about it in time to do it earlier.) The big one is that we *teach* kids to pee and poop in diapers--it's not just a natural thing that happens with all kids everywhere. There are millions of people in the world who do not use diapers--huge parts of India and China are an example. There kids learn to pee or poop in the appropriate spot from a very young age; baby clothes are often like long open shirts so they can just be lifted up--kids are naked underneath. The idea that kids muscles or whatever are not physicially capable of holding it before age 2 or so is just a myth, one that we value very much in our society. In societies without diapers, you learn one way of going from the time you are a baby--you don't have to suddenly make this huge conceptual leap from peeing/pooping wherever you happen to be standing or sitting (which is how it works with diapers) to going in the 'right' place in the house.

So--the reason potty training can be so hard is that we have to teach kids to poop and pee in a TOTALLY different way than we have been teaching them to go until that time. It's just a weird thing to do--like if we taught kids to eat at the table sitting down until suddenly, at age 2 we started telling them that really you are supposed to eat standing up outside. Kids who just seem to suddenly 'get it' have LEARNED to do it by watching other people--there isn't anything in a child's brain that suddenly says "Use the toilet" at a particular stage of development. (After all, no one had flush toilets until around 1900.)

I think most kids really do have to be taught to use the toilet, and yeah, I do think that a big reason so many kids train so late these days in the U.S. is because of this idea that they will do it when they're "ready" and because parents don't push it. This idea is very popular in AP circles partly because there WAS a horrible time in the U.S. when kids were expected to poop on a strict schedule (I have read baby care books from the 1940s that say to TIE THE CHILD TO THE POTTY AND LEAVE THEM THERE at specific hours of the day!!) and obviously that's not what I'm talking about.

But I personally think we have gone too far in the other direction and because of our fear of making our kids neurotic, have instead 3 and 4-year-olds who still poop in their pants--something that would be unheard of in many parts of the world. (and unheard of in 'tribal' societies like those APers like to emulate...)

Using a toilet is unnatural in many ways. (When they were first introduced, plenty of people thought it was very bizarre and unsanitary to poop inside your house.) Sitting down to poop is not the way people do it when they don't have toilets. The kid who goes outside to poop, who squats down on the ground, is behaving in a really natural, organic way!!

I don't know what the answer is, but I think that yes, there is something weird about a 3-year-old who still poops in his or her pants. But I don't think it is the fault of the individual parent (I think few parents of non-trained 3-year olds are happy about it)--I think it is a cultural thing we have going right now. So much of infant-rearing is based in culture, not biology--everything from sleeping arrangements to BF rates to how many people take care of the child. (For instance, I bet potty learning is a lot easier in an environment where more than one adult is primarily responsible for the kids). How kids learn to poop and pee is just a part of this.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

There is always such harsh judgement on threads like these. Sometimes it's really subtle, but it's definitely there... the idea that it's "weird", "wrong" or "bad" if a child who is of the average age to PL is still PLing!
But I bet if someone had a child who was 6+ and having problems everyone would be very sympathetic and not think it was "Weird" and "bad"









My DD didn't have a bit of interest until about a week after her third birthday. Then she PL'd herself (pee) in a day. Poop took another two weeks. She's had one accident and so long as we wake her up once to use the potty at night, she has a dry bed 90-95% of the time. Although I personally think we're pushing the dry bed a little since we can't really expect that to follow immediately, kwim? That's much harder. So she has padding under her sheet just in case.
In reality she's only been using the potty since mid-August, so like... a _month_.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

My son didn't train until 3yrs 8 mos -- what's that, 43, 44 mos?

My experience with him led me to a certain mantra:

You can lie down with them - but you can't make them sleep.
You can put food in front of them - but you can't make them eat.
You can put them on the potty - but you can't make them poop.

In other words, you can show them what YOU want them to do, but you cannot FORCE them to biological actions just because YOU want them to.

My son, it became clear, had a number of gross motor issues that were part of his potty delay. We got referred to a neurologist. I got every speech in the book, many from random strangers -- "watch for 'poop face' and put him on then," "try putting him on every 30 minutes...." Well, he never made 'poop face,' probably because he really had no idea of what was going on down there for the longest time. He could clamp down and hold, but he could *not* release of his own accord. And all the pressure on *me* led to some bad, bad places and power struggles.

When it clicked for him, it clicked overnight. He had maybe three accidents after the day he firstsat down on the potty and went.

When it came to his little sister, I determined to relax and not get stressed. When she showed interest, we got a little potty chair. She had free access to teh bathroom, and knew what was supposed to go on in there. We talked up using the potty and how fun it was to wear big girl underwear. ANd she decided at 3 years 1 mo that it was time. ANd she's had 2 accidents since then, both near misses and trouble undoing clothes. Yeah, "late" according to the definitions of several on this thread, but stress free for us both. We didn't leave it entirely to her - we let her know what the potty was, what it was for, and that we expected her to use it.

But you cannot *make* a child release wastes when and where you want. You can encourage them to *want* to do so, but that's a very different thing. Yes, later training may be a cultural thing - but different cultures have different approaches to it - and there are many things about American culture that make some of the early PL approaches not feasible for *most* people in this country - work schedules, childcare issues, the fact that we spend much of our days indoors on carpet...

One thing I'll say about the OP, though -- kids can pick up on being judged. And it doesn't help. Being judged and shamed will not make a child decide to start using the potty. I sometimes thing every stranger that made a comment to my son extended the time he stayed in diapers based on his reaction to their judgement.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

It's really very common. Especially in boys. Irritating though, isn't it.

I wont wipe a child's bottom after about 4 &1/2. It makes me very uncomfortable. I have had six year olds ask me to wipe them.

Give him time, and slowly encourage him to be potty trained when he is ready.

BUT beware.... if you don't have boys in your house... BOYS ARE PIGS when they first learn. That little thing can squirt farther than you ever dreamed!!! You can hold it down, they can hold it down, and still it squirts UP. You will be amazed at where you will find pee.

So, don't encourage too hard.


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

I seem to have a different View of this subject. I have 3 boys and all were introduced to the potty from birth and I used cloth diapers. All of them were PL'ed at 23 mos but still wetting at night occasionaly. I think parents in our scociety teach their babies and toddlers to use their diapers as a potty and then wait for readyness and then begin changing behaivior by talking about potty and visiting the potty. I think this is the problem. I personally am uneasy when I see a 3 year old in a diaper. They should at least be able to pee in the potty or outside by this age and out of diapers. Underwear are not much harder to change if poop happens adn it sends the child a clear lesson. I would talk to the parents and say can you please bring a stack of underwear with the little boy because he may surprise them.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
At the risk of inviting much displeasure (and knowing that my experience is unusual in our culture) I have to say that it seems that kids potty-learn much later these days then they used to. A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did.

That I totally agree with. I can potty train a cloth diapered child much faster than a disposable diapered child. The newer diapers are comfey even if they are wet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.

I agree a LITTLE with this. I am willing to work with a child as long as his/her parents are working on it at home. But, sometimes we providers feel like it is only getting done at day care. I will send a child home in panties, only to have them come back in pullups. Or even worse, I will have them in undies, and before the parent leaves, they will put a diaper on the child.

So, in those cases I don't try so hard. But, eventually I will decide "I have changed your last diaper kiddo, you are potty trained as of today" and then we will switch to panties, and I won't put a diaper back on them again.

BUT, those kids are always ready. I already know that it will be successful before I say that.


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 
There is always such harsh judgement on threads like these. Sometimes it's really subtle, but it's definitely there... the idea that it's "weird", "wrong" or "bad" if a child who is of the average age to PL is still PLing!
But I bet if someone had a child who was 6+ and having problems everyone would be very sympathetic and not think it was "Weird" and "bad"



















As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet. I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.

I disagree, plenty of children decide for themselves one day that they don't like wearing diapers anymore, or they see other children using the toilet and decide they want to do that too. I've seen it over and over with children I've nannied for, and just like every child will decide one day that it is time for them to stop nursing they will also decide when they want to stop wearing diapers if you can bear to wait long enough to allow them to.

This is not to say that we shouldn't encourage children if they seem ready however, just that no child will willingly go to college wearing diapers even if you never do anything about it.


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## Kerry (Aug 1, 2004)

I just want to say that I REALLY liked Fuller2's post.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

My son is 37 months and he has shown intermittent interest in the potty but mostly he insists on wearing a diaper. he refuses any suggestions or direction from me so I just stay in the background and cheer on his sporadic efforts. He has just started preschool where they don't demand that the kids be out of diapers and it is their experience that there are always a number of the under four year olds still use diapers. They say that usually within a few months of school starting and watching other kids their age use the potty, they are ready to do it. This is not unusual, especially for boys. I'm glad you reached out for a reality check since this wasn't within your experience.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

my daughter is 33 months old and doesn't really show any sign giving up her diapers. she has clear potty readiness signs, but is rather unwilling to "do the deed" as it were. it bothers me (mainly because she has FOUL poos), but i don't want her to fear her bodily functions.
what appears to be happening with k: she is stubborn. since she was in the WOMB, everything has had to be her way, HER idea before it's worth doing. i imagine, one day, after we all give up asking her about the potty and talking about it, she'll do it, no fuss, no muss, because, only then, will it be entirely her idea.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 

A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did. Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.

Well that broad generalization doesn't apply to my son who wears cloth diapers and doesn't go to day care.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
This idea is very popular in AP circles partly because there WAS a horrible time in the U.S. when kids were expected to poop on a strict schedule (I have read baby care books from the 1940s that say to TIE THE CHILD TO THE POTTY AND LEAVE THEM THERE at specific hours of the day!!) and obviously that's not what I'm talking about.

That is what I would HAVE to do to get my child to use the potty regularly and of course I think it is counterproductive to how I want to raise my very stubborn son. Oh, and I would have to wrestle him to get him there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
I don't know what the answer is, but I think that yes, there is something weird about a 3-year-old who still poops in his or her pants. But I don't think it is the fault of the individual parent (I think few parents of non-trained 3-year olds are happy about it)--I think it is a cultural thing we have going right now. So much of infant-rearing is based in culture, not biology--everything from sleeping arrangements to BF rates to how many people take care of the child. (For instance, I bet potty learning is a lot easier in an environment where more than one adult is primarily responsible for the kids). How kids learn to poop and pee is just a part of this.


Sorry, I just don't agree that it is weird. Kids learn to walk, talk, read, etc. at all different ages depending on some balance between their nature and their environment. Why is this any different?

Sure a lot of child rearing decisions are cultural, but that doesn't make it right or wrong in the case of using EC or letting your child take things at a pace that works best for him. Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it would work for everybody. I have provided as much encouragement and structure as my child will allow, but at 37 months he still uses the potty only a few days each week and continues to have accidents.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
my daughter is 33 months old and doesn't really show any sign giving up her diapers. she has clear potty readiness signs, but is rather unwilling to "do the deed" as it were. it bothers me (mainly because she has FOUL poos), but i don't want her to fear her bodily functions.
what appears to be happening with k: she is stubborn. since she was in the WOMB, everything has had to be her way, HER idea before it's worth doing. i imagine, one day, after we all give up asking her about the potty and talking about it, she'll do it, no fuss, no muss, because, only then, will it be entirely her idea.

You have described my son exactly!!







Well except for the really foul poos...


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
If a child is truly not interested, there is not much one can do, IMO. My ds is 5 and today he used a toilet for poop for the third time in his life, the last time being over a year ago. He is not comfortable with the sitting position and prefers to stand with a diaper. He has not routinely worn diapers since he was 2 1/2. He tells me when he needs one for poop and I put one on at that time. I think that our relationship is more important than toilet training and would rather not coerce, manipulate, or bribe him (not that it would even be possible to bribe him. There is nothing he wants more than what he wants).

I hope you know, I think you're awesome!







: This reminds me so much of how Joe was. He was 3 years nine months- no, I think he weaned at 3.9, & potty learned at 4.5. Yep, that's right. (How funny that I had to think about it, when he was that age & people were implying he would never be out of pullups, I thought I would never forget the date of such a "milestone!") Anyway, Joe had a phobia of pooping on the potty- he would go in the playroom, alone, lean on the bed, & poop in his pullup. So I knew he could tell when he had to go, & I also knew that when he was ready, he would move to the toilet- & he did!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet.

Mine did. & personally I think sitting a kid on the toilet before he is ready (like as soon as he can get up on it, as you said) is asking more of them than trusting them to KNOW when they are ready to make the transition. I know so many of the kids who are trained early have "accidents" for a year or more. I think if a kid has more than one accident every week or so, he is not really trained- his parents are- & not very well, at that. After Joe decided he was ready to wear underwear, he peed his pants ONCE, the first day. That was it, in his whole life. He never pooped his pants & he never peed the bed- ever. I don't know of any other child who has never peed the bed. (Not saying they don't exist, just that I have never known of one!







) If I could do it over I would not change a thing!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith* 









As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.

Don't feel judged. Just know that you are doing what you know is best for your son, & know that one day he will be almost 8 years old & you will really have to think hard to remember how old he was when he was out of diapers! It'll happen mama!


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

I've been thinking about my use of the word 'weird' before. I think I mean it like this: I certainly don't think it's UNUSUAL for a 3-year-old to be pooping in their pants these days--so in that sense, no, it's not weird at all. (I think the OP and others here are looking for reassurance that their kids aren't the only ones who do it. It's obvious that they are not the only ones!)

On the other hand, when you compare what happens here with what happens in other societies (or even ours 30 years ago), then yes, it is unusual for a 3-year-old to not be potty trained. I remember reading some article about Jane Fonda (?) or someone protesting over in Vietnam with her kid who was I think about 2 years old, and a local woman there with whom they were staying being apalled at the fact that her kid still was in diapers. Apparently this woman got him with the program very quickly and he was totally trained before they went back to the states.

The comment about carpets was interesting too--how much of late potty training has to do with exactly things like that--the actual physical environment we live in? People who live without diapers tend to be in warm places where kids can easily be naked, or else in the country where they can spend the whole day outside. (Hmm--how do native people living in cold climates like northern Canada or Alaska potty train their kids?)

After reading the EC books (Infant Potty Training being one of them) it seemed to clear to me that the way we go about it is deeply, deeply cultural--and that many of our deepest assumptions about it are just not true. (ECers often go farther and say that to teach a child to poop in their pants at all is abusive. I don't know about that--when everyone does it, and no community standards are broken, is it abusive? It's similar to the BF debates. If you formula feed in a loving way because no one helped you BF, is that abusive?)

When you have learned to do something as everyday as pooping and peeing in a certain way, it is going to take a LOT to get you to change. Just arbitrarily changing the location and position has to seem totally weird to a toddler. I think by 3 a kid who has learned to poop in his/her pants is old enough to just not change until they want to change--which is what a lot of you are probably seeing when they suddenly decide to use the toilet. There must be some sense of social awareness that kicks in, some ability to see that other people don't do this in the same way they do, and that they would like to be with the others.

So I bet it has very little to do with muscles and a lot to do with the ability to pick up social cues and recognize what the rest of the group is doing. If it's true that girls are a lot better at social skills than boys, then I bet this is why boys seem to train later than girls do. (Whether they ACTUALLY train later is probably up for grabs, since that kind of gender-based observation is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have heard, though, that when men care for small children that boys learn faster. My son has always spent a lot of time with his dad, even as a baby. This is another difference in our society--here, men spend almost no time with small children, but this is not the case in nonindustrial societies where the men ALSO spend most of the day home or with the family group.)

Anyway. To clarify: In our society, no, a 3-year-old who poops in their pants is not weird. And at that point I would say that you are going to be about as able to 'force' them to use the toilet as you would be to force them to sleep in the bathtub--and that it makes sense to just let them do it when they're gonna do it. But I also think that it might be very interesting if everyone just ditched the diapers at about 3 months and took it from there--I bet you would see very few 3-year-olds pooping in their pants.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Fuller2,
I agree with the basics of what you are saying: if we all practiced EC hard and fast from the beginning, obviously we wouldn't have as many 3 year olds in diapers. I think that much is obvious. If we all practiced baby sign we'd have more babies who could use sign language, too.

What I hate seeing in these threads is how that tends to get a little twisted.
It's all well and good that MomA did EC from birth and her kid is saying "potty" before she says "mama", but what about MomB, and MomC, and the other 50% whose kids make up the other side of the average learning age _in this culture_? They are feeling pressured and upset at the notion that their children are somehow naturally defective, when in reality the issue may just be that they did not have the knowledge/ability/foresight/whatever to use EC _three years ago_.
How does this dialogue help them when OP's are starting threads trying to find reassurance that their kids are still normal?
How does turning one's nose up at these kids, sneering at the very idea that they are diapered, or going as far as to insult them or their parents... going to help? Is this AP? I'm not asking you directly, fuller, just a general question to the masses.

My DD is now potty learned, and I know full well she had the ability and knowledge to do it by 18 months but as you said there is no way you can _force_ your child to do anything. Aside from the logistics, that's not very child-friendly, is it? And since I didn't start EC with her early on, I'm sure I could have tied her to a chair or forced her to soil herself time and time again and feel shamed or embarrassed just so I could have bragging rights, but I'd much rather go through the absolute horror of wiping a three year old bum.

EC is a learning process, so maybe instead of flinging out how incredibly weird the other 50% of children are, people could offer some suggestions to those who are seeking some kinship?

Hi, my name is Babs and I _didn't_ practice EC. My hard-headed daughter knew her body's signals from early on and responded to them, but did not choose to use the actual potty until she was three and quite literally DID wake up one morning suddenly potty learned.
With the baby I'm about to have, I plan to EC, and if that child is fully potty learned at 14 months (or 20 months, or 30 months...) old I wouldn't feel either of them were 'ahead' nor 'behind' but rather a product of their upbringing, personalities, my responsiveness mixed in with a bit of respect to their individuality.


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## mashtree (Feb 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kerry* 
I just want to say that I REALLY liked Fuller2's post.

Me too.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

My very bright dd was 5 years old before she ever used a toilet. Shortly after her birthday, she just decided to do it and within 1 month was in underwear day and night with no accidents.
I wasn't happy about using diapers or pull ups. I devoted a lot of time and energy and feel we tried everything though. Dd never ever gave any cues on when she was pooping or peeing. No grimaces, squating, or dancing around. Dd did not seem to mind if she sat in poop or pee all day or if it ran down her leg when she was naked. We tried motivation of all kinds. Nothing worked. It was incredibly frustrating and there was a lot of judgement from other adults. It had become a power struggle. She just wasn't ready and I think may have some issues with dairy that contributed to the problem. Dh was a late potty trainer too and MIL always tells me how much they are alike.

A 3 year old not being potty trained is not really abnormal in this culture these days even if your dd learned earlier. I don't know how you can get over your uncomfortable feelings. Maybe just repeat in your head each time that "each child is different and at least he isn't 5 like onlyzombiecat's dd". Feel better?


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## CelticFish (Aug 4, 2004)

My four year old was nearly three before she caved and started going in the potty. She would freak out if you asked if she needed to go, wanted to wear panties, etc. etc. I finally realized that the root cause of her issue wasn't unwillingness to learn or readiness. There was another mom that we see fairly often (at the park, etc. - a casual acquaintance who's never watched my child or anything like that) who was really really pushing her little girl (about the same age) to potty train, and was constantly nagging her to keep her panties dry, tell Mommy when you need to go potty, etc. One day, at a playgroup, the little girl had an accident, and her mom stripped off her pants and undies right there in the middle of the play area at the mall, put dry clothes on her, and snapped at her to keep those dry. Turns out, MY daughter was terrified I'd humiliate her like that, and her refusal to learn had to do with using the same language that mom used. As soon as I started saying "underwear" and "bathroom" instead of "panties" and "potty", she didn't associate going to the bathroom with that mom and child, and PL was accomplished in about a week. A year and a half later, she's still uncomfortable with the term "potty" and will tell me she "has to use the bathroom".

I guess my point is, depending on how things are at home, previous daycare situatoins, etc., he may be very embarrassed and self-conscious about his diapers, or have heard/seen others embarrased for accidents, and not be interested in PL because of that. At that age, they do pick up a LOT more than we give them credit for sometimes. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that if I'd realized my dd didn't like the term "potty" she probably would have PL'd months earlier than she did!

Don't be afraid to try different language and see how he responds - he may be willing to try going for you if it's totally non-threatening and there's no pressure. He may also respond better to your efforts to encourage PL because you're not Mom and Dad. Another friend of mine runs a home daycare, and she's got a little boy right now who's done with diapers...at her house. His parents aren't real consistent with PL, and sometimes drop him off with a diaper on...and the first thing he does when he gets to her house is ask for his underwear. He might also come around after seeing your kids going. Just give it a little time, and see how things go.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

DS was another child who just up and used the toilet one day. He was in diapers until just before his fourth birthday. When he was 2 we picked up a potty and read books about it and talked about friends who were trained. By three we were offering rewards and continued with books etc. Within two months of turning three DS started making it really clear to us he wasn't going to use the potty and he wanted us off his back. So we never bothered him again and if family asked him if he was going to use the potty he would respond with "some day."

And some day did in fact come. He decided to start using the toilet like us - never did use the potty ever - and he went straight to underwear even at night. He stood to pee right from the start and no messes from a wrong aim.

Kids do just up and start using the toilet the same way kids just up and start talking, walking, picking up a ball etc. These aren't things that need to be taught or they're missed by a certain age, barring a cognitive or physical challenge. Some take longer than others but there's no way kids growing up in this culture could miss the fact that most of the population uses a toilet and not diapers.


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## wifty (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
my daughter is 33 months old and doesn't really show any sign giving up her diapers. she has clear potty readiness signs, but is rather unwilling to "do the deed" as it were. it bothers me (mainly because she has FOUL poos), but i don't want her to fear her bodily functions.
what appears to be happening with k: she is stubborn. since she was in the WOMB, everything has had to be her way, HER idea before it's worth doing. i imagine, one day, after we all give up asking her about the potty and talking about it, she'll do it, no fuss, no muss, because, only then, will it be entirely her idea.

This could have been written by me, down to the age of my DD!

DD actually started using the potty to pee one week in her 20th month. I made a big deal over it and was encouraging the way I was meant to be.....and she stopped.

Now she is 33 months and just yesterday pooped for the first time. She will only do things when she wants to and although I think we might be approaching this differently if we were in a society without diapers, I am not sure she would go in the toilet until she decides to.

I think this is an interesting conversation and I don't feel judged at all even though I have an almost 3 year old in diapers. It doesn't help that she is almost the size of a 5 year old!

Its simply hard to say how things would be different in a different society or time and its hard to say what is ultimately best for our children - pushing them because there is no choice or letting them decide and having the convenience of diapers.

with smiles


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
You don't think? This hasn't been my experience. In my experience children do wake up one day and decide to: use the potty, walk, learn to eat with utensils, wean, etc.

If a child has never seen someone use utensils, do you honestly believe they would all of a sudden make a fork and use it?

What about those families who never had toilets? Think a child is gonna build one and use it? I think not.

Those are learned behaviors.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I don't understand it, either. I know it's not PC to say, but the vast majority of children all over the world are potty trained before the age of 2 and it's no big deal. No one is mean to them or rewards them with candy, they just potty train.

Sometimes I think it's our lifestyle. Sometimes I think it's the food we eat, but I don't know because it wasn't like this 20 years ago, and it wasn't like this 100 years ago. It's really perplexing to me why the average age for day potty trained is so much older these days.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
If a child has never seen someone use utensils, do you honestly believe they would all of a sudden make a fork and use it?

What about those families who never had toilets? Think a child is gonna build one and use it? I think not.

Those are learned behaviors.


Well, I can't say for sure that a child who had never seen someone use utensils would wake up one day & make a fork, but who knows? SOMEONE woke up one day & made a fork, right? They weren't here since the dawn of time.







:

I don't understand your point about families who never had toilets- that almost certainly does not apply to anyone here. I did not lock Joe in a windowless room & expect he would one day break out looking for a porcelain container filled with water, into which he could evacuate his bowels & then flush it neatly away. He had a little potty, a seat to put on the big potty, a stepstool. He was (ALWAYS!!







) in the bathroom with me when I used the toilet. He knew what to do, & when to do it; he just was NOT comfortable with taking the next step. Just like he was not comfortable falling asleep without nursing until he was almost four years old. I can't see any of you, Mothering mamas, for Heaven's sake, being critical of me nursing my son until he weaned himself- so I guess it always confuses me when these threads pop up. I trust my son to know what he needs & when he needs it, in regard to nursing, sleep, food, education... why would I raise him like that but then force him to sit on the potty when he is genuinely NOT ready?







:







: Makes NO sense to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
...it wasn't like this 20 years ago, and it wasn't like this 100 years ago. It's really perplexing to me why the average age for day potty trained is so much older these days.


Not to me. Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:

Not to me. Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.
Yep, much of pottying is cultural, EVEN in cultures that practice EC. Some of them use techniques that are not workable for many people in the US -- the Chinese practice of holding small children over the street gutters, for example. Other cultures with very early potty learning *have* no potties to learn in - learning where your wastes go is actually a matter of learning where they *don't* go -- ie, not on Mom, not in the sling, not in the bed.

Other systems sound to be more of a behavioral conditioning - when I hear about potty training that consists of training all the children to squat and pee when an adult snaps their fingers, that's what I think.

In the US and many other Western societies, as we moved away from the kind of environment in which these practices worked, we seem to have adopted the punishing, guilting, shaming, beating methods to try to force children to do what they no longer lived in an environment to accomplish easily.

The outcome of this was that the majority of kids trained young -- but a significant minority carried issues and problems around potty stuff into adulthood.

It's possible, within this society, to use EC methods; but not everyone can arrange their lives in this way -- and given the history behind early training in this country, some parents are philosophically opposed to doing so. This isn't abuse, this isn't wierd -- and unlike formula feeding or CIO -- I'm unaware that there is any research that shows that gentle later potty learning is in some way harmful in the long term?


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
I seem to have a different View of this subject. I have 3 boys and all were introduced to the potty from birth and I used cloth diapers. All of them were PL'ed at 23 mos but still wetting at night occasionaly. I think parents in our scociety teach their babies and toddlers to use their diapers as a potty and then wait for readyness and then begin changing behaivior by talking about potty and visiting the potty. I think this is the problem. I personally am uneasy when I see a 3 year old in a diaper. They should at least be able to pee in the potty or outside by this age and out of diapers. Underwear are not much harder to change if poop happens adn *it sends the child a clear lesson*. I would talk to the parents and say can you please bring a stack of underwear with the little boy because he may surprise them.

What lesson is it that you think a parent needs to send to a three year old?

I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

Quote:

my daughter is 33 months old and doesn't really show any sign giving up her diapers. she has clear potty readiness signs, but is rather unwilling to "do the deed" as it were. it bothers me (mainly because she has FOUL poos), but i don't want her to fear her bodily functions.
what appears to be happening with k: she is stubborn. since she was in the WOMB, everything has had to be her way, HER idea before it's worth doing. i imagine, one day, after we all give up asking her about the potty and talking about it, she'll do it, no fuss, no muss, because, only then, will it be entirely her idea.
This was us too! My Dd (whose name is also Fiona, Wifty!) just turned 4 and potty learned about 3 weeks after her birthday. It was fast, and it was all about what she wanted to do, nothing I did. We had her diaper free during the day for 4 weeks straight, and even that didn't convince her to do it. She just did it when she was ready.

I know some have wondered if she is "behind" in some way--I think it's the opposite. She is such a bright and complicated creature, and because of that PLing was much more complex. I know I'll have a much easier time with my easy-going DS.

And to all of you judging ladies--I was just like you until I had my dd. 5 years ago there's no way I would have been ok with a 4 yr old in diapers. Experience changes everything.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.

Glad I read this closely- I was thinking, you AGREE with asking the mom for underwear?







I know I would not have been at all ok with _someone else_ trying to potty train my son- he was adamant enough about it when I brought it up. To have had a caregiver try to override MY parenting would have been waaay over the line.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.

Children all over the world are potty trained long before the age of 2, and they are NOT beaten, coerced, ridiculed into doing it. The vast majority of children in other countries --now, and in the past--are NOT treated in the way you refer and are potty trained. So, yes, I am perplexed as to why this is happening now in our culture.

You can find parenting books that are abusive, but that's not how my mother was potty trained. That's not how my grandmother was potty trained. My great grandmother helped her little brother learn to potty train when he was 14 months old. These are all anecdotes, but the real story comes from all the children from all the other cultures now and in the past who most definitely do not abuse their children into it. I would imagine, in fact, that abused children could have even more potty issues than others, but I don't know that other than a guess.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

My girls were all well into their threes- two of them pushing four, by the time they were using the toilet. What's the big deal? They'll do it when they are ready.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
What lesson is it that you think a parent needs to send to a three year old?

I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.









:







:







:

Yanno, my kid is going to be 3 in January. He isn't potty trained. We bought a potty tonight. He may or may not go for it. If he doesn't, he'll be one of "those" children in diapers at age 3. Good thing for me that I'M at peace with it, but I gotta say it really torks me off how many here think it's such horrible parenting to have a 3 year old in diapers.

Please. Come to my house and potty train my autistic, nonverbal son. I double dog dare you.










And before I get a slew of "oh your ds is special needs that's _different_" posts, I want to point out that in a lot of ways, it's NOT different. My ds will potty train when HE is ready. Forcing a child before they're ready, typically developing OR special needs, just sets them up for all kinds of problems, both physiological and psychological.

There's a line from a song I like that says, "and sammy will do what sammy will do when sammy is ready to do it...and trevor will do what trevor will do when trevor is ready to do it....and lucy will do what lucy will do when lucy is ready to do it...and they'll do it...in their own time"

My thoughts exactly.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
If a child has never seen someone use utensils, do you honestly believe they would all of a sudden make a fork and use it?

What about those families who never had toilets? Think a child is gonna build one and use it? I think not.

Those are learned behaviors.

OK - I'm confused about what's going on. What I thought I heard you "saying" was that child had to be deliberately taught to potty-train because they simply won't learn it on their own, without being specifically taught, possibly by a certain age. I thought that's what you meant when you said they won't wake up one day and start using the toilet.

And what I was trying to say was that I don't think you need to "teach" a child to use the toilet anymore than you need to teach them to walk, talk or yes, use utensils. In my experience children, little sponges that they are, pick up on these things spontaneously when they are ready. Sure you can help by providing underwear, things to pull-up on and giving them utensils. But ultimately they do learn them on their own.

But now I'm not sure what you meant by "No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet." Perhaps we are misunderstanding you.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

I have a friend who has two sons that aren't potty trained. One is 4 and the other is 6. They are mildly autistic. She said that because they are that old (and not potty trained) nobody will EVER sit for them. She said she is willing to pay $100 for one night out with her husband. But nobody will do it because the kids are older and nobody wants to change the diapers.









PS -- Yes, I offered to watch her kids.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cardinal* 
I have a friend who has two sons that aren't potty trained. One is 4 and the other is 6. They are mildly autistic. She said that because they are that old (and not potty trained) nobody will EVER sit for them. She said she is willing to pay $100 for one night out with her husband. But nobody will do it because the kids are older and nobody wants to change the diapers.









PS -- Yes, I offered to watch her kids.

Wait till those kids are nine, if they still aren't potty trained.







I have a friend in the same boat, with an autistic daughter who is also developmentally delayed- she is nine & only now starting to make any tiny miniscule steps that she MAY one day far in the future learn to use the potty. Her mom has severe asthma & right now a broken spine (don't ask!) My point is, she has had to change her daughter, in severe asthmatic distress, extreme pain from the broken spine, with a house full of people there to "help" her. I KNOW that not everyone would think it fun to change a nine year old, but when her mom is in such pain... it just makes me mad.

That is waaay off topic. Tell your friend, if we were nearby, I would definitely watch her kids- for far less than $100 a night!!


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Wait till those kids are nine, if they still aren't potty trained.







I have a friend in the same boat, with an autistic daughter who is also developmentally delayed- she is nine & only now starting to make any tiny miniscule steps that she MAY one day far in the future learn to use the potty. Her mom has severe asthma & right now a broken spine (don't ask!) My point is, she has had to change her daughter, in severe asthmatic distress, extreme pain from the broken spine, with a house full of people there to "help" her. I KNOW that not everyone would think it fun to change a nine year old, but when her mom is in such pain... it just makes me mad.

That is waaay off topic. Tell your friend, if we were nearby, I would definitely watch her kids- for far less than $100 a night!!

I know I strayed off topic. I guess I just read all the posts on this thread and got sad to see the judgment that has taken place so far. Why should anyone feel uncomfortable simply because a child cannot use a toilet? My DS is 16 months so we're not in toilet training land just yet. However, already people ask if we're using the Big Boy Potty yet and if we tee tee in the potty. It makes me







: . I am so sorry that this poor little girl is having a tough time and that her mom is also experiencing angst and pain. I wish I could help them.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks Cardinal! She is awesome, actually. Her HUGS are so worth a little bit (ok, a lot!) of poop!









*I* was the one who went off topic, not you.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Wait till those kids are nine, if they still aren't potty trained.







I have a friend in the same boat, with an autistic daughter who is also developmentally delayed- she is nine & only now starting to make any tiny miniscule steps that she MAY one day far in the future learn to use the potty. Her mom has severe asthma & right now a broken spine (don't ask!) My point is, she has had to change her daughter, in severe asthmatic distress, extreme pain from the broken spine, with a house full of people there to "help" her. I KNOW that not everyone would think it fun to change a nine year old, but when her mom is in such pain... it just makes me mad.

That is waaay off topic. Tell your friend, if we were nearby, I would definitely watch her kids- for far less than $100 a night!!

Can she get some kind of hospice care? Maybe she could contact an LPN agency - who would likely charge less than $100 a night for skilled LPN care.
I'm thinking she could get a nurse to come out to her house for an evening. The nurse would totally enjoy babysitting a 9 yo (as opposed to what they ususally do) and the idea of dipes wouldn't freak her out. I would start checking with some agencies.

A friend of mine has a special needs kid (who had 12 hours of skilled nursing care in their house a day) and they were "allowed" a free Saturday once a month from medicaid or something. I was pleased to see that they were able to get out once in a while.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
What lesson is it that you think a parent needs to send to a three year old?

I think the lesson she was suggesting is the lesson that pooping yourself is inappropriate. Not a lesson we all teach. I do.

All of you who are critical of having expectations of one's children that they will start using the potty when they are able, examine if you don't have similar etiquette expectations for your child. E.g., you don't eat yogurt with your hands when you're old enough to use a spoon, you take off your muddy shoes before you track through the house. I'm not sure how different it is to decide that you want to channel your child to eliminate in potties or toilets.

We all pick our battles. I don't, for example, worry about water tracked out of the bathtub. Saves me energy not worrying about that. I did PL early. Not nighttime ... I wait for that to come on its own. Not naptime ... I wait for that to come on its own. But my kids PL'd earlier than any of their friends I can think of. Why? Took away the diapers, that's why. Bare bottom'd 'em. They weren't punished or ridiculed. They did have to help wipe up accidents. It's their eliminations, not mine. Pottying is a dignifying activity, not a degrading one. They were enabled.

So my son's diapers went away in June. He's now 19 months, and he probably has one accident a month in the house, and it's a little slower than I'd expect out of the house because his other significant people are less committed and let him use a pullup as a diaper out of the house. With me? He's good out of the house. He trusts I will get him to a potty when he asks for one.

I was in diapers as a three year old. My mom picked other battles. She just didn't want that one. To each her own.

I found that by doing it young, we had no battles. Diapers gone. If they're young enough, they don't look back so much.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Thanks Cardinal! She is awesome, actually. Her HUGS are so worth a little bit (ok, a lot!) of poop!









*I* was the one who went off topic, not you.










I PM'd you


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

self delete. just not worth it.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
I think the lesson she was suggesting is the lesson that pooping yourself is inappropriate. Not a lesson we all teach. I do.

All of you who are critical of having expectations of one's children that they will start using the potty when they are able, examine if you don't have similar etiquette expectations for your child. E.g., you don't eat yogurt with your hands when you're old enough to use a spoon, you take off your muddy shoes before you track through the house. I'm not sure how different it is to decide that you want to channel your child to eliminate in potties or toilets.

We all pick our battles. I don't, for example, worry about water tracked out of the bathtub. Saves me energy not worrying about that. I did PL early. Not nighttime ... I wait for that to come on its own. Not naptime ... I wait for that to come on its own. But my kids PL'd earlier than any of their friends I can think of. Why? Took away the diapers, that's why. Bare bottom'd 'em. They weren't punished or ridiculed. They did have to help wipe up accidents. It's their eliminations, not mine. Pottying is a dignifying activity, not a degrading one. They were enabled.

So my son's diapers went away in June. He's now 19 months, and he probably has one accident a month in the house, and it's a little slower than I'd expect out of the house because his other significant people are less committed and let him use a pullup as a diaper out of the house. With me? He's good out of the house. He trusts I will get him to a potty when he asks for one.

I was in diapers as a three year old. My mom picked other battles. She just didn't want that one. To each her own.

I found that by doing it young, we had no battles. Diapers gone. If they're young enough, they don't look back so much.

i've tried that. we took away the diapers and gave k her potty and panties.
know what she did? held her urine so long she gave herself a uti complete with fever.


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## Mylittlevowels (Feb 16, 2005)

Oh...I would LOVE to see some of you with the early trainers deal with my Super Poop Withholding DD







You might just change your tune. We had her about 85% trained at one point. She both peed and pooped and was dry at night. Then she decided pooping hurts and started holding it (she's been doing this on and off since she started solid foods around 8 months old







) She'll hold for a week and get tummy cramps and what finally comes out plugs the toilet. There's no way to convince her that she's 3.5 and diapers are "inappropriate"







Puh-lease. All I know is she poops more in the diapers than out and our pediatrician told us to BACK OFF. Just let her work it out in her own little mind.
I'm sorry that disgusts some of you







:


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

None of my kids was ready at three. Pediatrician Did Not Care, thank goodness. I have read that the average age is OVER three, so perhaps the kids you have known just happen to be earlier than average. Whether your kids were EC or not they may have just happened to be on the early side.

If it makes you uncomfortable, I wonder if you were potty trained by parents who were stressed about it and it brings up these old feelings? That would be understandable, most people I meet are stressed about it and the previous generation or two were even more so. Our culture is so harsh about it!


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## boobjuice (Jul 23, 2006)

my boy was 3 when i trained him. he is also special needs. i didn't think anything about it until my daughter was born, she was so small and breast fed stools, i started getting grossed out changing his diapers, he was also the size of an average 5 yr old.

i got this video and several times a day we watched it TOGETHER, and we sang all the songs and danced TOGETHER, and within a week he was trained and we have had no accidents, yeah!

Good luck.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 

Quote:

Originally Posted by artgoddess
I agree with the idea of asking the mother for underwear. Because then if it were my son in the care of a person who was not comfortable with my son being normal 3 year old I would want to know about it. Asking for the underwear will give the mother a heads up she should look for childcare elsewhere that is a better fit to her parenting ideals.
Glad I read this closely- I was thinking, you AGREE with asking the mom for underwear?







I know I would not have been at all ok with _someone else_ trying to potty train my son- he was adamant enough about it when I brought it up. To have had a caregiver try to override MY parenting would have been waaay over the line.

Yeah, I was mild in my response wasn't I?







:

What I wanted to say was :







What the F#@&!!! Did you seriously just suggest that this woman UNDERMINE another mother's parenting? If a mother here found out her daycare provider was using formula instead of expressed breastmilk to feed a child, there would be outrage on the board. What the hell???!!! It is completely normal for a 3 year old not to be interested in using a potty.


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## northwoods1995 (Nov 17, 2003)

Well this thread has been interesting to read.

My DS is 3 and he pees in the potty (and stays dry at night) but he will not poop in the potty. He asks for a diaper and he goes and then I help him change back to underwear. If I do not put a diaper on him he will not go. I don't want him to get to the point of being constipated and hurting to go b/c I think that will just prolong the cycle. I haven't pushed him b/c I thought that would do more harm than good.

I thought on this website, of all places, that I would be more likely to read about letting them do it in their own time and not forcing the issue.

I'm really surprised by some of the comments I've read on this thread. Like how it's inappropriate and possibly even parental neglect?!? to mention a couple.

Quote:

-- I'm unaware that there is any research that shows that gentle later potty learning is in some way harmful in the long term?
I'm wondering about this too. Is there any research like this?


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

Hmm. If a 3-year-old still in diapers makes me 'uncomfortable,' it's not because I had any major uptight PT issues myself (in fact, to this day my mother's voice often makes me relax and have to, um...







)... I guess I am more interested in the subject anthropologically or historically. I think it is really interesting that the age at which a kid learns to poop wherever you're supposed to poop in that society really varies, even over the span of a few decades in the same society.

I should also say that though my son started to show interest in the potty at 18 months and we began PL, I didn't actually have time to REALLY ditch the diapers until about 3 months later when summer vacation started. My mom came to help, we took the pants off completely, let him pee/poop on the floor a few times (obviously not making a big deal out of it) and it only was about 2 weeks before he had it basically figured out. I do think that letting him pee in the yard was a major promotor (nothing like watering the flowers).

I also actually give him a snack and he sits and eats on the potty--he will sit there for like 45 minutes playing and eating--it's break time for me! And I let him use the potty pretty much wherever, like in the middle of the living room, his bedroom (I have 3 of them) along with the bathroom. He actually only uses the 'real' toilet maybe once or twice a day, though lately it's getting more frequent. (It's still pretty big for him, and twice now he's accidentally slammed the seat down on his penis---OUCH!)

I wonder if having him take the dog for walks with me all the time also helped. He was in the backpack/front pack for months watching the dog poop and pee outside and watching me pick up the poop (I live in the city right now). Being around animals has to help make stuff like that seem normal and not scary.

When you're sitting on the potty and your kid is watching, how do you know they know what you're doing? With dad it's obvious, but with mom?

Anyway: If someone feels defensive or embarassed because your kid is still in diapers I'd go on over to child-led weaning and take some cues from there. These kids will wean when they are ready, and your kids will use the potty when they are ready. Right now you have to respect the age they are at and how they see the world, and we all know how a 3-year-old can be. I guess I would say that maybe the AP way would be to integrate the diaper/potty issue into normal life as much as possible, to accept that this is what it is and not try to force any changes.

On the other hand, teaching is not the same as forcing, and I don't think it's wrong to keep on gently teaching what those body parts do and what the potty is for, or to remove the diapers even if the change is a little scary.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
i've tried that. we took away the diapers and gave k her potty and panties.
know what she did? held her urine so long she gave herself a uti complete with fever.

Please don't scare people







First, you took her diapers away much later than I did with my kids. An older 2 year old is much different from a one year old in terms of pliability of habits and desire to control universe. Also, and probably more importantly to this situation, I'm not sure my kids *could* hold it 6 hours at the age when I took away their diapers. So the chances of them hurting themselves that way are almost nil.

I've heard some people say there's a window for doing it easily when they're one year olds and want to do everything like you, and then you might as well wait until three when they can be talked through it.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


I've heard some people say there's a window for doing it easily when they're one year olds and want to do everything like you,
Never heard that and I don't believe it for a minute. Reminds me of myths about weaning.

And







at the idea that my kids didn't potty learn until "late" because I forgot to teach them. I taught them! I had ds in pullups for months and months because I believed something Dr. Sears had written about when he would learn







: Oh the landfill space I could have saved if I knew earlier to let him be himself.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Both of my kids, a boy and a girl, have been using the potty in the daytime for pee and poop since 2 and a half. But my daughter, almost three, still wears diapers at night. My son wore them at night until he was five. They were dry for the last 6 months of it (unless he was sick), but he insisted that he still needed them. He would say, " Mama, I'll be ready when I'm 6." But at five he decided he was ready.

They both learned within a week with few accidents, so I feel like it all worked out. I was glad I waited. I had several friends who tried earlier with girls, and the process was so drawn out and accident-ridden, and they were pulling their hair out. I did have a potty sitting around when they turned two, and offered it for a while before going into full-on potty learning.

L.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

If it makes you uncomfortable (and it would me too) then consider talking to the mother about working on encouraging potty learning at home. It may be that she is assuming that he will get up one day and decide to go in the toilet without any encouragment or instruction and he may, but I think it is unlikely that he will learn to use a toilet without knowing what to do and getting encouragement and the reassurance that accidents are okay and everyone makes mistakes and he can try again next time. He will probably just get used to having pee and poop against his skin and by the time his parents get tired of changing him they will have to go through a lot of effort to teach him and you will be stuck changing huge very disgusting diapers.

If they won't teach him at home maybe you could teach him what to do at your house by letting him watch while the other children use the toilet, encouraging trying about every two hours and reading him a story while he is on the toilet. On top of this, try to make diaper changing time as quick and as boring as possible. There is a lot of attention given during a diaper change and if he learns to expect that while he is on the toilet he may decide that it is more fun to use a toilet.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
i've tried that. we took away the diapers and gave k her potty and panties.
know what she did? held her urine so long she gave herself a uti complete with fever.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mylittlevowels* 
Oh...I would LOVE to see some of you with the early trainers deal with my Super Poop Withholding DD







You might just change your tune. We had her about 85% trained at one point. She both peed and pooped and was dry at night. Then she decided pooping hurts and started holding it (she's been doing this on and off since she started solid foods around 8 months old







) She'll hold for a week and get tummy cramps and what finally comes out plugs the toilet. There's no way to convince her that she's 3.5 and diapers are "inappropriate"







Puh-lease. All I know is she poops more in the diapers than out and our pediatrician told us to BACK OFF. Just let her work it out in her own little mind.
I'm sorry that disgusts some of you







:

Thank you guys for posting. I know this happens a lot... I babysat a little girl who was rushed into training & she developed encopresis:

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/WELCO...ncopresis.html

There was NO way I was going to risk doing that to my son... & I hope that no one else ever has to experience it; it was such a hard thing. She was in 1st grade when Joe was born & I quit babysitting her- I don't know when she overcame the problem, it was still going strong when I left.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Yeah, I was mild in my response wasn't I?







:

What I wanted to say was :







What the F#@&!!! Did you seriously just suggest that this woman UNDERMINE another mother's parenting? If a mother here found out her daycare provider was using formula instead of expressed breastmilk to feed a child, there would be outrage on the board. What the hell???!!! It is completely normal for a 3 year old not to be interested in using a potty.

THAT'S more like it.
















Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
When you're sitting on the potty and your kid is watching, how do you know they know what you're doing? With dad it's obvious, but with mom?

Um... I told him. Mommy is peeing, Mommy is pooping now... he could hear the pee splash & he could see the poop in the toilet when I was finished.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Please don't scare people







First, you took her diapers away much later than I did with my kids. An older 2 year old is much different from a one year old in terms of pliability of habits and desire to control universe. Also, and probably more importantly to this situation, I'm not sure my kids *could* hold it 6 hours at the age when I took away their diapers. So the chances of them hurting themselves that way are almost nil.

I don't think







ing at a mama whose child had a severe UTI & fever is appropriate at all. I don't think she is trying to 'scare people;' she is trying to make them aware of the _very real_ possible consequence of forcing a child to train before he is ready. & I don't think a one year old is ever ready to train. (Unless EC has been used since birth, or you plan to do nothing for a month except follow your BABY around- training yourself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen* 
If it makes you uncomfortable (and it would me too) then consider talking to the mother about working on encouraging potty learning at home. It may be that she is assuming that he will get up one day and decide to go in the toilet without any encouragment or instruction and he may, but I think it is unlikely that he will learn to use a toilet without knowing what to do and getting encouragement and the reassurance that accidents are okay and everyone makes mistakes and he can try again next time. He will probably just get used to having pee and poop against his skin and by the time his parents get tired of changing him they will have to go through a lot of effort to teach him and you will be stuck changing huge very disgusting diapers.

If they won't teach him at home maybe you could teach him what to do at your house by letting him watch while the other children use the toilet, encouraging trying about every two hours and reading him a story while he is on the toilet. On top of this, try to make diaper changing time as quick and as boring as possible. There is a lot of attention given during a diaper change and if he learns to expect that while he is on the toilet he may decide that it is more fun to use a toilet.

Did you READ this thread? I thnk asking the mom for underwear is _highly_ inappropriate. You are assuming that the child is not trained because of ignorance or laziness on the part of the parents. Like I said before, if someone had volunteered to "help" me potty train Joe, I would have been sooo angry. Our kids are only little for so long- yeah, I changed poopy diapers till he was almost five- if he lives to be 100 that is less than 1/20 of his life. Not a big deal to me. (& when I changed him, it was quick & matter of fact. I did not sing to him or give him candy when he pooped in his pullup. I just changed him & knew that one day he would be growing up & moving on & I thanked God for the privilege of changing him & helping him.

This thread...


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

Wow, I too am a little disconcerted at the judgement going on in this thread. Holy cow!

Every child is different. I think if the OP is uncomfortable with what's happening, the OP should politely decline to babysit this boy anymore.

I had DD in cloth, when she reached 2 I set a potty chair next to the big potty in the bathroom. She showed absolutely NO interest in the potty chair for a couple of months. One day, she up and decided to sit on it to pee. Once SHE demonstrated that she was ready to explore this option, then we commenced potty learning. Since when is it my decision to tell her when she is developmentally ready for something?

DD also self-weaned just before her 3rd birthday. MANY people in the US would vehemently disagree with me for letting her nurse so long. However, she told me when she was ready to cut that apron string.

Now at 4 and half, I have quite an independent, self-assured little girl. I try not to force things on her that she's not ready for. I don't want to set her up for failure, so instead I follow her cues. In our case, it works pretty well.

FWIW, DD got out of diapers probably a full year before my friend's son, who is 6 months older than DD.

Boys are generally slower than girls at this. And I don't think it is at all unusual for a 3 yo boy to still be in diapers.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Thank you guys for posting. I know this happens a lot... I babysat a little girl who was rushed into training & she developed encopresis:

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/WELCO...ncopresis.html

There was NO way I was going to risk doing that to my son... & I hope that no one else ever has to experience it; it was such a hard thing. She was in 1st grade when Joe was born & I quit babysitting her- I don't know when she overcame the problem, it was still going strong when I left.

THAT'S more like it.
















Um... I told him. Mommy is peeing, Mommy is pooping now... he could hear the pee splash & he could see the poop in the toilet when I was finished.

I don't think







ing at a mama whose child had a severe UTI & fever is appropriate at all. I don't think she is trying to 'scare people;' she is trying to make them aware of the _very real_ possible consequence of forcing a child to train before he is ready. & I don't think a one year old is ever ready to train. (Unless EC has been used since birth, or you plan to do nothing for a month except follow your BABY around- training yourself.

Did you READ this thread? I thnk asking the mom for underwear is _highly_ inappropriate. You are assuming that the child is not trained because of ignorance or laziness on the part of the parents. Like I said before, if someone had volunteered to "help" me potty train Joe, I would have been sooo angry. Our kids are only little for so long- yeah, I changed poopy diapers till he was almost five- if he lives to be 100 that is less than 1/20 of his life. Not a big deal to me. (& when I changed him, it was quick & matter of fact. *I did not sing to him or give him candy when he pooped in his pullup.* I just changed him & knew that one day he would be growing up & moving on & I thanked God for the privilege of changing him & helping him.

This thread...









Great post.
Katallen- I am laughing because it is strange that anyone would think that diaper changing is fun (and therefore a kid might not learn to use the potty because getting diaper changed is so much better). What the heck? I'll remember that one. If my DS doesn't potty train by exactly 3, I'll blame myself for cooing at him during diaper changes.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *twilight girl* 
*Every child is different. I think if the OP is uncomfortable with what's happening, the OP should politely decline to babysit this boy anymore.*
.

Bingo.
\
If a caregiver watching my son was uncomfortable with me still breastfeeding him, I'd pull him out of there quickly. Same goes with original post. If you're uncomfortable changing his diaper, it's time you told the folks they need to get a new caregiver.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Thanks for mentioning the encorpresis problem joesmom.
I've know *two* kids with this, and it's MISERABLE! One of these kids just now, at 12, has stopped having daily leakage. 12!!!
I've never met a child who was gently allowed to PL at his/her own pace who had poop issues that late.

THe thought of forcing a _toddler_ to touch feces is just . . .ugh.

To anyone who is uncomfortable with helping older children with diapers or wiping: please don't be around them then. The damage done from picking up on your disgust and judgment will surely be far greater than any benefit gained from PLing early.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
I don't think







ing at a mama whose child had a severe UTI & fever is appropriate at all. I don't think she is trying to 'scare people;' she is trying to make them aware of the _very real_ possible consequence of forcing a child to train before he is ready. & I don't think a one year old is ever ready to train. (Unless EC has been used since birth, or you plan to do nothing for a month except follow your BABY around- training yourself.

Sorry I wasn't trying to laugh at the infection, just keep from being too serious about my admonition not to scare people. Came out wrong.

Since most kids in the world "train" as one year olds (either transitioning from EC to independent pottying or transitioning from diapers to pottying), doesn't it seem likely that some one year olds are ready to be out of diapers? I'm not counting nights/naps although many people do, so I should be careful about that.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

Since most kids in the world "train" as one year olds (either transitioning from EC to independent pottying or transitioning from diapers to pottying), doesn't it seem likely that some one year olds are ready to be out of diapers?
What do you mean, most kids in the world train as one year olds?

I'm sure kids who potty train at 12 months must exist somewhere, but I've never heard of a child who trained that young. I worked with children for years before I had my own. I know dozens and dozens of moms. My mom had lots of kids and also worked with kids in a paid capacity. My cousins have large families.

Granted, these are all children in the US. I've read that in the USA at least, the average age is more than three years old.

(The only EC'ers I know have infants.)

Are there some studies of other cultures that I'm not aware of?


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

All 3 of my boys were out of diapers by 2 1/2. Nathan my youngest was my only cloth diapered child and he took the longest. We did the naked method which is something you may want to discuss w/ his mother. My oldest slept dry by 18 months and was completely done at 25months. Pooping was an issue w/ 2 of my boys. I ( at the advice of my ped) gave them lots of prune juice 2 - 4 oz a day. There was no holding that. After 2 or 3 sucessful runs to the potty they were "unafraid" ( for lack of a better word). In my family it would be quite odd to be 3 and still in diapers. I have 5 nephews and all were out of diapers well before 3.

To OP maybe the mom needs some cooperations and suggestions. I have seen children be diaper free in daycare and still use diapers at home.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Okay, I shouldn't weigh in 'cause dd1 used the potty b/f 2. dd2 is 26 months and uses the potty about 1/2 the time at home.

They did wake up one day and decide to use the potty. I don't teach pottying directly. Like most of the learning in our house, I supply the materials, they work out their own time table. I'm happy to provide modeling and assistance as requested.

It's poop and pee. It's not degrading. It's just poop and pee. No biggee. dd2 can use the potty if/when she wants. If she wants a diaper, that's fine too.

dd1 kinda felt ripped off when her friends got stickers and stuff for using the potty. I asked her if she wanted some stickers, 'cause I'd be happy to get them for her.

They didn't need to learn a lesson.

If a care provider bugged my kid to use a potty when I said they weren't ready, I'd ask them to stop. If they asked me for underwear when I provided diapers, I'd say no.

Some kids use the potty early, some later. I did daycare providing in my younger days so I've seen the range (and that was 20 or so years ago). People just have bad memories. There were lots and lots of kids in the 3-4 range who didn't potty at daycare.

They had to stay with the "little kids" until they learned to "motivate" them. Almost put one kid in the hospital with fecal withholding. Can't recommend it.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter* 
All 3 of my boys were out of diapers by 2 1/2. Nathan my youngest was my only cloth diapered child and he took the longest. *We did the naked method which is something you may want to discuss w/ his mother*. My oldest slept dry by 18 months and was completely done at 25months. *Pooping was an issue w/ 2 of my boys. I ( at the advice of my ped) gave them lots of prune juice 2 - 4 oz a day. There was no holding that.* After 2 or 3 sucessful runs to the potty they were "unafraid" ( for lack of a better word). In my family it would be quite odd to be 3 and still in diapers. I have 5 nephews and all were out of diapers well before 3.

To OP maybe the mom needs some cooperations and suggestions. I have seen children be diaper free in daycare and still use diapers at home.

Am I still at MDC?

just asking.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:

To OP maybe the mom needs some cooperations and suggestions. I have seen children be diaper free in daycare and still use diapers at home.
Let me go on the record as saying that *most* moms with a child who is 3+ and not using the potty do NOT need ANY more suggestions.

The majority of moms I know with later trainers (myself included) HAVE TRIED WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SUGGEST.

Yes, we tried it.
Yes, we were consistent.
Yes, we stuck with it for more than a day.

What is is about the sight of the edge of a diaper above the pants of any child over three that makes it open season on comments? Heck, both my kids are *very* tall for their ages, so we started getting comments earlier than that. Random strangers on the street would first try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?") and then would offer me helpful "hints" like "have you tried naked time?" (Um, yeah. But maybe if you describe it to me for the hundredth time it'll suddenly work!)

.


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## natashaccat (Apr 4, 2003)

Hey guys and just to bring this back to topic I'm really not interested in disrespecting this Mom's approach, I have girls and I've never diapered a boy so I just really wasn't sure if this was abnormal for a child this old to still be in diapers.

I'm not interested in taking on the job of PL and I only care for him for a few hours a week, mostly I don't have anything at all to do with diapering but sometimes he does poop and I'm just unsure how to talk to him about it and converned that I'll hurt his feelings because I do feel really grossed out to change a poopy diaper of a child this old.

It sounds like most of you who have BTDT, reccomend being extremely hands off. I think that if it happens again I'll just have one of his parents come back and pick him up.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

I understand that it grosses you out, but honestly, if you were my child care provider and called me to come pick up my child because he had pooped, that would be the last day you would care for him.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Sorry I wasn't trying to laugh at the infection, just keep from being too serious about my admonition not to scare people. Came out wrong.

Since most kids in the world "train" as one year olds (either transitioning from EC to independent pottying or transitioning from diapers to pottying), doesn't it seem likely that some one year olds are ready to be out of diapers? I'm not counting nights/naps although many people do, so I should be careful about that.

i think it's rather apparent i wasn't out to scare anyone and no one was frightened at what i said. my daughter did give herself a uti because she refused to urinate without diapers. you recommended taking away diapers and i stated what happened when i did. this was a recent occurrance, about a month ago. when i tried diaper-free days when she was younger (just about 2), if she had an accident, she freaked out (we don't understand why, no one who has cared closely for her has ever given her the message that she's bad or dirty), then sobbed and clung to us until we let her have diapers again.
i think it's very apparent my daughter, and other "older" toddlers aren't ready for the potty and THAT IS OKAY. just because your children or my cousin or the kids down the street potty trained at 5 months, 18 months, 2 years doesn't mean there's something wrong with my kid or that i'm a neglectful parent.
i think there is major case of "one-size-fits-all" parenting going on in this thread which just SHOCKS me on this board.







:


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
i think there is major case of "one-size-fits-all" parenting going on in this thread which just SHOCKS me on this board.







:









:


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natashaccat* 
It sounds like most of you who have BTDT, reccomend being extremely hands off. I think that if it happens again I'll just have one of his parents come back and pick him up.









: Whaaaaa???







: I have BTDT, & I don't think I or any of the other moms here who have kids who trained late recommend being "hands off." We recommend being RESPECTFUL, & PATIENT, & KIND. Hands off makes it sound like we are uncaring robots, plodding through our poop filled diaper days.

I hope, instead of waiting till this kid poops to call his parents, you call them now. Let them know that YOU have issues with this, before their son is damaged, even in a small way, by your reaction. Can you imagine if he pooped & you, instead of matter of factly changing him, call his parents to come get him? It will seem like a punishment- you seriously can't see that?









I remember my pastor's wife talking to me about her grandson, who is just about Joe's age, not being potty trained yet. this is when Joe was somewhere around four. I said, Joe isn't either, & I am not pushing him. She seemed really surprised by that. I feel like society makes our kids grow up too fast & it is my personal conviction that whenever I hear of a kid who is being rushed to train, I will tell my story.

(Then there is the behavioral therapist I know, who told my best friend that when she could not get her son out of diapers, she took them away & bought him underwear & told him the underwear was magic & if he pooped in it the underwear would BITE HIM.







:







: A _behavioral therapist_.)


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## Mylittlevowels (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
I understand that it grosses you out, but honestly, if you were my child care provider and called me to come pick up my child because he had pooped, that would be the last day you would care for him.


No freaking kidding







:
My MIL has had a daycare for 35 years and has seen all sorts. She doesn't bat an eye when changing a poopy diaper for my dd.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

natashaccat, I'm really wanting to suggest something that will help. I guess I just don't understand. It's just pee and poop. Even if he pooped in the potty, he'd likely still need help wiping, so it doesn't buy you much in terms of poop avoidance.

It's entirely normal. Entirely. Totally. Completely normal. Not a problem of lack of care or consistency. Just normal.

20 years ago when I worked for the happy crunchy cool daycare, *lots* of 3 year olds still used diapers, especially to poop. I didn't make up that story about the kid who was turning four, still in the "little kid" room, who was almost hospitalized. He was completely traumatized by the idiot grown ups who wanted so desparately not to change his poops.

What is it about the changes that are hard? They're usually so quick about changes at that age, diaper off, poop in potty, wipe wipe, maybe some cream, new dipe, quick laugh together, back to playing.

I honestly care that it feels weird to you, but I'm not getting what the weird part is.....Could you fill in a little more on that?


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

I have an almost 3 year old who just potty learned this week, although she is still in diapers at night. I have a friend who watches her sometimes while I'm at school, she is really bonded to her and I value their relationship, but my friend is not that experienced in the art of actual child care. We have a deal that if my daughter poops my friend will drive her to my school and I will change her diaper.









Not so workable for everyday care, but if it's just a few hours a week, maybe the mama would go for it. I know it's more important that my children are cared for by people they trust and who are kind and gentle to them, than things like diaper changes.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
I think the lesson she was suggesting is the lesson that pooping yourself is inappropriate. Not a lesson we all teach. I do.

All of you who are critical of having expectations of one's children that they will start using the potty when they are able, examine if you don't have similar etiquette expectations for your child. E.g., you don't eat yogurt with your hands when you're old enough to use a spoon, you take off your muddy shoes before you track through the house. I'm not sure how different it is to decide that you want to channel your child to eliminate in potties or toilets.

We all pick our battles. I don't, for example, worry about water tracked out of the bathtub. Saves me energy not worrying about that. I did PL early. Not nighttime ... I wait for that to come on its own. Not naptime ... I wait for that to come on its own. But my kids PL'd earlier than any of their friends I can think of. Why? Took away the diapers, that's why. Bare bottom'd 'em. They weren't punished or ridiculed. They did have to help wipe up accidents. It's their eliminations, not mine. Pottying is a dignifying activity, not a degrading one. They were enabled.

So my son's diapers went away in June. He's now 19 months, and he probably has one accident a month in the house, and it's a little slower than I'd expect out of the house because his other significant people are less committed and let him use a pullup as a diaper out of the house. With me? He's good out of the house. He trusts I will get him to a potty when he asks for one.

I was in diapers as a three year old. My mom picked other battles. She just didn't want that one. To each her own.

I found that by doing it young, we had no battles. Diapers gone. If they're young enough, they don't look back so much.









: I don't have to feel guilty about filling a landmine with my kids dipes and excrement.

This is supposed to be a Natural Family Living site. The earth is more important to me and my family than the ridiculous notion than a child will be emotionally harmed by learning how to use a toilet.

Yes, a child will be harmed if you ridicule them, hit them, demean them. But not if you treat them as a human being. Human beings have spent a millenium not defecating where they eat, live and play, and especially not on themselves.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I guess the thing that rings for me about pigpokey's post is the whole choosing your battles thing. I choose *not* to battle with my children. And somehow dd1 learned to potty around the same time pigpokey's did. dd2 is taking somewhat longer and I have no need for her to go faster.

Every child is different.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
This is supposed to be a Natural Family Living site. The earth is more important to me and my family than the ridiculous notion than a child will be emotionally harmed by learning how to use a toilet.


This is supposed to be a gentle discipline, child led parenting site. My child is FAR more important to me than the number of diapers he contributed to a landfill. No, I am not proud that we did not use cloth diapers or EC from day one, but at the time of his birth I did what I knew how to do. Believing 100% that my son, & many of the kids mentioned in this thread, would have been emotionally harmed by forcing them out of pullups is NOT a "ridiculous notion." It is a fact. I know my son. You do not.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
This is supposed to be a gentle discipline, child led parenting site.

Read the top...it says, "The Natural Family Living Community".


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
My child is FAR more important to me than the number of diapers he contributed to a landfill.

Well, here we differ. As the earth is more important for my family. Without the earth, we will die. The earth can live without us, but we cannot live without the earth.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Read the top...it says, "The Natural Family Living Community".

I *know* what it says. What *I* am saying is that it is *also* a site that advocates gentle discipline & child led parenting. All the "Natural Living" in the world doesn't amount to a hill of beans if you are ignoring the needs & desires of small children in the meantime.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Well, here we differ. As the earth is more important for my family. Without the earth, we will die. The earth can live without us, but we cannot live without the earth.

I am not saying that the earth is not important to me- I am saying that JOE is FAR MORE than a pile of diapers. He is more important to me than the earth, which is also VERY important to me.







:


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
I understand your discomfort. All six of my kids knew how to use the toilet by the tim ethey were able to get up on it. No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet. I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.
The toilet is the most sanitary and hygenic place to urinate and defecate, when living inside a city/house.

Since you are watching this child, can you help him learn to use the toilet?
It does become difficult when they have spent their entire life using diapers, but most children would rather not defecate/urinate on themselves.








Hope something gets resolved for you.

That's what all my kids have done. They just decide they are ready and they use the potty. It isn't a power struggle they just do it one day and we're done. They have all been over 2 and going on if not 3 for the most part for us.

Also we used CD's and it didn't make PL-ing any faster than our son who we used sposies with except maybe by a month or 2.

For the whole wiping thing. I help my 3 year old wipe. Other wise I'd have &h!t smeared all over the bathroom walls.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I'm not trying to be snarky, argumentative, or anything, but do you all really think that this child would be "damaged" by a babysitter not wanting to change his diaper? I don't think children are really that fragile. Poop is gross, every 3 yr. old knows that. I wouldn't want to change a child that old's diaper (heck, I'd prefer not to deal with my 9 mo. old's diapers!), but I would do it if I were babysitting. I would never have thought to turn down a friend in need of a sitter for fear of harming their child when I cleaned up their mess.
FWIW, I have a friend whose almost 3 yr. old is in diapers, I have babysat him and changed his diapers. I sincerely doubt that I've damaged him in any way, but I might reconsider babysitting him in the future if you really believe it would.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
I'm not trying to be snarky, argumentative, or anything, but do you all really think that this child would be "damaged" by a babysitter not wanting to change his diaper? I don't think children are really that fragile. Poop is gross, every 3 yr. old knows that. I wouldn't want to change a child that old's diaper (heck, I'd prefer not to deal with my 9 mo. old's diapers!), but I would do it if I were babysitting. I would never have thought to turn down a friend in need of a sitter for fear of harming their child when I cleaned up their mess.
FWIW, I have a friend whose almost 3 yr. old is in diapers, I have babysat him and changed his diapers. I sincerely doubt that I've damaged him in any way, but I might reconsider babysitting him in the future if you really believe it would.

If you don't have a problem with changing his diaper, why would you wonder if you have damaged him? You are taking the posts out of context a bit. And I DO think it can be degrading for a 3 year old to be changed by someone who is visibly disgusted. My friend with the SN nine year old, when she is changing her, never makes a big fuss over the smell or the grossness. It is about respect.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 







: I don't have to feel guilty about filling a landmine with my kids dipes and excrement.

This is supposed to be a Natural Family Living site. The earth is more important to me and my family than the ridiculous notion than a child will be emotionally harmed by learning how to use a toilet.

Yes, a child will be harmed if you ridicule them, hit them, demean them. But not if you treat them as a human being. Human beings have spent a millenium not defecating where they eat, live and play, and especially not on themselves.

It's ridiculous to me that this is a landfill full of sposies or PL-ed by 1 arguement. We used cloth diapers the last 2 times we've have a babe in diapers. No landfill issues at all!

Quote:

My friend with the SN nine year old, when she is changing her, never makes a big fuss over the smell or the grossness. It is about respect.
I've watched a SN's little girl who had accidents all the time. She was in "diapers" I suggested pull ups (the good nights brand where the only ones big enough for her.) so that she could feel more "normal" at school and not have to worry about how many changes she needed. It was at my friends request. (They were foster parents.) It worked out well. I also gave them the names of some WAHM's who would probably be willing to make them some cloth 'pull ups' if they wanted. It just wasn't an issue for me when she needed help with her toileting or with wiping or with a change. She was a child. She needed help. I don't get the big deal.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

My DD is nearly three and just became completely PL this month. I will admit... I got really grossed out over the past few months by changing poopies. I made a joke out of it to cover my uncomfortableness (is that a word?) but it was how I felt and its not good to pretend to kids that you don't feel something.

There are child care providers who will not take un-PL older kids. We were going to sign DD1 up for a day camp this summer, but couldn't because she wasn't PL'ed. But they were up front about it and would never have called us after the fact. It was a matter of them not having enough staff to be changing kids and still have enough people on the floor.

I really don't think it is a child's best interest to force them into PLing before they are ready... and I don't think a child can really do it unless they are ready. I knew my DD was ready, she actually told me that she didn't want to wear panties because it was easier to pee in her dipes (!) it was just a matter of me being consistent. But I would never have forced her if I though it would hurt her. No matter how much I was filling up the landfill with her pullups. (sorry)


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Let's see, I've had four children that PLed so far with three more to go. They all did it at different ages and with different motivation. They were all cloth diapered. My fifth child is now two months away from being 4 years old and not the least bit interested in potty training. He's very verbal, smart, knows his ABC's, the works. But why would I push him or pressure him? I don't do that when I wean my kids, some have nursed up to four years old. Changing a nearly 4 year old kid's diaper is not the biggest thrill of my life but he'll do it when he's ready. All of my kids did just get up one morning and do it, having little or no accidents after that. When I had a few kids Iwould probably have thought badly of a parent that had a four year old in diapers. I guess I learned my lesson, right?


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 

Quote:

Originally Posted by joesmom
This is supposed to be a gentle discipline, child led parenting site.
Read the top...it says, "The Natural Family Living Community".









tell me you are not seriously arguing after 10,000 posts at this place that it is not a board for AP parents and those who promote child led parenting, and Gentle Discipline just like.....oh I don't know.... um... it's namesake, Mothering Magazine.


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## natashaccat (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 







: Whaaaaa???







: I have BTDT, & I don't think I or any of the other moms here who have kids who trained late recommend being "hands off." We recommend being RESPECTFUL, & PATIENT, & KIND.


By "hands off" I meant exactly that, sorry the wording implied otherwise. When I posted my starting question I was simply looking for suggestions on how one does in fact respectfully conversate with an older child in diapers and your thoughts on how I should handle a situation that I'm uncomfortable with.

I can see from your posts that this transition can be very stressful to both parent and child. It's so outside of my own experience as an ECer I really needed some insight on what the child is thinking and how that whole family dynamic works. If you haven't walked in someone's shoes it's hard to know how they might be feeling KWIM and I'd rather risk offending you guys with something unintentionally rude than to say that same thing to my friend w/o knowing that I'm going to hit a sore point.

At the suggestion of some of the earlier posters before this thread turned into a whole depate over diapering, the mom and I had an honest and friendly chat about this issue together. Having her pick him up to do diaper changes was her suggestion. I'm caring for this child as a personal favor to a dear friend who is also a neighbor. She gets caught up on housework while her ds plays with my dd. I'm happy to care for her child but not comfortable diapering him so this is a good compromise that works for us both.

Anyway I guess I'm done with this thread, thanks so much to those of you who answered on topic.

Ya'll feel free to continue this debate as you see fit.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I guess the thing that rings for me about pigpokey's post is the whole choosing your battles thing. I choose *not* to battle with my children. And somehow dd1 learned to potty around the same time pigpokey's did. dd2 is taking somewhat longer and I have no need for her to go faster.

Every child is different.

Each mom is different. The battle was my battle over how I want to spend my time, not a battle with my child.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
If you don't have a problem with changing his diaper, why would you wonder if you have damaged him? You are taking the posts out of context a bit. And I DO think it can be degrading for a 3 year old to be changed by someone who is visibly disgusted. My friend with the SN nine year old, when she is changing her, never makes a big fuss over the smell or the grossness. It is about respect.

It does make me uncomfortable to change a child that age, I do think it's a little "weird" as the OP said. Obviously no one here is going to change some kid's diaper and go "This is disgusting, what is wrong with you?" or anything... people were claiming that the child would be able to tell that she is grossed out and that would damage him. I don't think I took anything out of context.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

OP: So glad you found something that works for you.

Re: poop is gross. I'm with ekblad8. It's not the biggest thrill of the day....but it's just not some heinous thing. Goodness gracious, when working in an organic garden, I've shoveled *large* amounts of horse poop. I've scraped chicken poop off perches (I'll admit, that's kinda gross). Shoveled cow poop on one occasion to clear a pasture for a music festival. Poop is everywhere and sure does make plants grow pretty.

Two of the folks in my family are environmental engineers that visit sewage treatment plant (called poopy plants in my family). They develop what is called "plant nose" after a while. Meaning the first couple of times you go, you can't breathe for the horrible stench sometimes...but then you are able to use your nose to work and sometimes figure out problems. (A properly functioning sewage treatment plant does not smell, so they say.)

Maybe toddler diaper changes are like that. I'd rather change a toddler than deal with chicken poop any day.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
I've watched a SN's little girl who had accidents all the time. She was in "diapers" I suggested pull ups (the good nights brand where the only ones big enough for her.) so that she could feel more "normal" at school and not have to worry about how many changes she needed. It was at my friends request. (They were foster parents.) It worked out well. I also gave them the names of some WAHM's who would probably be willing to make them some cloth 'pull ups' if they wanted. It just wasn't an issue for me when she needed help with her toileting or with wiping or with a change. She was a child. She needed help. I don't get the big deal.

Your requests were to help the little girl, to help her feel better in school, which is awesome.







I totally get that- what I don't get are the posts lamenting how gross it is to change a toddler's diaper. I think it is just hitting me, the OP was about a THREE year old- to me that is still a baby!


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

Quote:

Having her pick him up to do diaper changes was her suggestion. I'm caring for this child as a personal favor to a dear friend who is also a neighbor. She gets caught up on housework while her ds plays with my dd. I'm happy to care for her child but not comfortable diapering him so this is a good compromise that works for us both.
Well now, this changes everything for me! I did not understand this from your previous posts - I thought you watched this child while her mother worked, and you were going to call her from work to come pick up her child, that's why I reacted the way I did. I should have known better, and I'm sorry for thinking that way! To me, your situation is more like a playdate, and asking your neighbor to retrieve her child makes a lot of sense. I hope you can forgive my post about never having you watch my child again - I honestly thought you were a child care provider in this situation.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Reading this thread is making me







.

Why would anyone assume that they could teach another person's child to use the potty better/earlier? Why is it so troubling that some children use diapers after age 3?

Why would anyone assume that early potty learning is ungentle or disrespectful? Why is it so troubling that some children are finished with diapers before the age of 2?

These comments are not directed at the op, who had an honest question and got lots of great answers. I just don't get all of the judgment about the potty behavior of other people's children????

FTR, my dd learned early-ish (27 months). She is now 5.5 , and I am still wiping her poopy butt! LOL! So I don't personally get the connection between 3 yo dipes and grossness, cause I am still wiping poop at 5 even though dipes are a distant memory.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

I am floored at the amount of "well, we did it this way, why can't everyone?" posts here. The posters who have had young children who have PLed at an early age - that's great! But, why in the world would you think that because it worked for YOU and YOUR kid, it would work for mine? One of the things I'm learning most as a mama is that the right to judge other mamas is just not my place. My good friend has a four-year-old daughter who was exhibiting behavior that concerned the mama, so she asked me, "What should I do?" My honest answer was, "I can give you my feedback about what I observe, but I could never tell you what to do, because I haven't been in your shoes." To say, or even imply, that because your child responded well to a learning technique you used to PL with him/her that it works for everyone, or that at the very least, we should all be trying harder or doing something different is simply arrogant.

You have no idea the steps taken, techniques tried, lessons taught, that we have gone through with toddlers, and it is absolutely astounding that because you have a child who is PLed at a certain age, it somehow gives you the right to say that all/most/many children should also be, is inconceivable.

ETA: My best lessons come from my own arrogance as a pre-mama woman...DH and I babysat a friend's children when Henry was still a newborn, and their youngest is a boy, who was about 2 1/2 at the time. I remember having to change his dipe, and I was really uncomfortable. I didn't think he was necessarily too old to be wearing them, but I was sure way out of my element. I was careful to act fine about it with him, because I knew then that it was my *OWN* issue, and not his. Soon after, I picked up some dipes (before we switched to CDs, so I was buying the sized sposies at the giant evil box store), size 2 or something, and I remember seeing the boxes of 6s, and swearing to myself that I would *never* buy that size, since only kids 3 and up were in them. Imagine my humbling moment when my 2 year, 3 month year old son moved into 6s and is STILL in them at 2 years, 9 months. Same kid that's been PLing since he was 16 months old.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
Well now, this changes everything for me! I did not understand this from your previous posts - I thought you watched this child while her mother worked, and you were going to call her from work to come pick up her child, that's why I reacted the way I did. I should have known better, and I'm sorry for thinking that way! To me, your situation is more like a playdate, and asking your neighbor to retrieve her child makes a lot of sense. I hope you can forgive my post about never having you watch my child again - I honestly thought you were a child care provider in this situation.


I thought the same thing, & I am sorry for assuming.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I too am shocked by the opinions in this thread about older children in diapers. Odd to see it at mothering.

My older dd potty trained herself, completely on her own at 20 months or so.... she never pooped in a diaper after that. The only thing I did was always have a potty available for her if she wanted it. She wore cloth diapers, we didnt EC. However shortly after she turned 2 she regressed and for about a year peed on the floor pretty consistently. Nothing helped..... and she still on occassion does it when she is mad. Training earlier isnt always a good thing, I really think for her it prolonged the process overall. She is now 5 and still needs a diaper overnight because her body just does not wake up.

My younger DD is now 21 months and while she likes to sit on the potty after she sees us do it, she really could care less about actually using it and we don't push it. She peed in the big potty once and I really think that was coincidence, LOL. I put her on it because she asks, but I really think she does it because she likes to copy us. She is naked most of the day because she prefers to be that way, not because I am traing her. Because she is naked all the time she usually pees on the floor, she has a habit of getting a prefold and throwing it on the spot tho I have never told her to do that so I am not sure where she gets it from, then she comes and gets me to point it out, and moves on with her life. I don't think its doing a darn bit to "train" her tho nor would I use that method to train her. She will learn in her own time tho I often wonder if I should be more vigilant about putting diapers on her or less vigilant and let her be naked. I can't imagine either would help or hurt cause she will get it eventually I am sure.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

It makes me really sad, like teary-sad, to think of a little kid, practically still a baby, having to bear the weight of an adult's disgust directed at them.
And toddlers, really little ones, being made to clean up waste so the adult(s) in their lives can be the proud parents of early learners.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liawbh* 
It makes me really sad, like teary-sad, to think of a little kid, practically still a baby, having to bear the weight of an adult's disgust directed at them.
And toddlers, really little ones, being made to clean up waste so the adult(s) in their lives can be the proud parents of early learners.









What actually are you picturing here, in your head? In both cases?


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

My almost 3 yr old wears a diaper at nap and at nights. She is not wild about using the potty, but she likes to wear panties. She'd rather not deal with it at all, I don't think. So I do have to insist that she go sit on the potty at various times. (Okay, I don't HAVE to insist, but she gets very upset if she has an accident, and so then I have to clean up a puddle and deal with a hysterical toddler. While she might not WANT to sit on the potty at that moment, it's less traumatic than the alternative.) Many many children at three are still in diapers, especially boys, particularly about pooping. Elimination, like eating and sleeping, are things you really can't force a child to do, and getting into power struggles about them are kinda dumb, imho. You can model, encourage, even bribe (tho that rubs me the wrong way), to encourage a child's independence, but it's silly to get worked up about it.

It sounds like you're aware that this is your issue, however, and I applaud that.







You've had totally different experiences, with early PL girls, and so having this great big boy who is still in diapers is kinda weird. I appreciate that. I'd try not to communicate disgust to him (which it sounds like you are) and offer opportunities. ("Would you like to sit on the potty?") Modeling by slightly older or peer boys might help, if available.


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## Terabith (Mar 10, 2006)

[QUOTE

There's a line from a song I like that says, "and sammy will do what sammy will do when sammy is ready to do it...and trevor will do what trevor will do when trevor is ready to do it....and lucy will do what lucy will do when lucy is ready to do it...and they'll do it...in their own time"QUOTE]

Whoo hoo, Finch! I LOVE that song! Go Signing Time!


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## frogguruami (Sep 21, 2004)

Both my boys wer 3 and a half before showing any interest in potty training.

AM


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

another "my three year old is still in diapers" chiming in. My first daughter was out of diapers right around her second birthday-my youngest daughter had no interest. She will use the potty to pee when it suits her, but refuses to poop in it. She's always been prone to constipation, which I know plays a role in that. So I'm definitely not adding to that stress just yet by pushing it.


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## Stayathomemommy (Jun 7, 2002)

I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stayathomemommy* 
I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.

Because you and MitB, and the others suggesting it on this thread know this boy better than his PARENTS who have said they are following his cues?







:

What if she decided he did or did not need to be eating solids? Would that be an appropriate thing for her to be trying to introduce on her time table or the parents?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stayathomemommy* 
I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.

I guess I am wondering what "encouragement" and "be started" means. Field trip to the toilet? Tell him what poop and pee is? Introduce the concept of underwear?

I'm just having a difficult time imagining a (typically developing) 3 yo who does not know those things, and who has never had a conversation with a caretaker about diapering vs pottying. A 3 yo in a literate family who has never been read a book on pottying. A 3 yo who hasn't figured out that other people use the potty. If a 3 yo is not yet "ready" to sit on a potty (ready being defined by the parent), I am going to assume the parent has a good reason for believing so!


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
I understand that it grosses you out, but honestly, if you were my child care provider and called me to come pick up my child because he had pooped, that would be the last day you would care for him.

ITA


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
This is supposed to be a gentle discipline, child led parenting site. My child is FAR more important to me than the number of diapers he contributed to a landfill. No, I am not proud that we did not use cloth diapers or EC from day one, but at the time of his birth I did what I knew how to do. Believing 100% that my son, & many of the kids mentioned in this thread, would have been emotionally harmed by forcing them out of pullups is NOT a "ridiculous notion." It is a fact. I know my son. You do not.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Well, here we differ. As the earth is more important for my family. Without the earth, we will die. The earth can live without us, but we cannot live without the earth.

I agree with Joesmom.


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

boys are just different.
you can't keep them on the same page as girls.
on EVERY level, from potty learning to education.

i think on average boys are about 3 when they learn.
mine was 3.3
i have a 2 yo son now.. and he thinks the potty is a game.
i won't even attempt until close to 3.

but i do wonder if my dd will learn sooner then that.

don't fret.
try and gain some comfort with it.
you can't help how you feel, and i understand that.
but realize that you raised girls, so this boy thing is all new water for you!

and frankly, if PL is the only issue thats cropped up with caring for a 2 yo boy, after having had only girls, then you are lucky.
becasue 2 and 3 yo boys are a special thing, um.... well, yeah, i will stick with that word. SPECIAL.

you might get him to pee on the potty.
by casually mentioning it afte ryou ahve changed him, and before he get a fesh diaper put on( this is when my 2yo likes to sit on the potty).
but i would not push the issue.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

that boys are different thing is fine and dandy until it's a girl that doesn't potty learn before some prescribed time, sit still or who talks late, or....

Really, I had the experience of my dd1 talking late. People repeatedly said, "Well boys just sometimes get it later." Umm, how is that helping?

*Kids* are all different. They have their own needs and timetables. It seems like it's just not that hard to respect that.


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## Sydnee (May 1, 2004)

fuller2 said:


> My son started using the potty when he was about 18 months old, and I also have been occasionally babysitting 3-year-olds who still use diapers.
> 
> At the risk of inviting much displeasure (and knowing that my experience is unusual in our culture) I have to say that it seems that kids potty-learn much later these days then they used to. A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did. Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.
> 
> ...


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## Sydnee (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joesmom* 
Well, I can't say for sure that a child who had never seen someone use utensils would wake up one day & make a fork, but who knows? SOMEONE woke up one day & made a fork, right? They weren't here since the dawn of time.







:

I don't understand your point about families who never had toilets- that almost certainly does not apply to anyone here. I did not lock Joe in a windowless room & expect he would one day break out looking for a porcelain container filled with water, into which he could evacuate his bowels & then flush it neatly away. He had a little potty, a seat to put on the big potty, a stepstool. He was (ALWAYS!!







) in the bathroom with me when I used the toilet. He knew what to do, & when to do it; he just was NOT comfortable with taking the next step. Just like he was not comfortable falling asleep without nursing until he was almost four years old. I can't see any of you, Mothering mamas, for Heaven's sake, being critical of me nursing my son until he weaned himself- so I guess it always confuses me when these threads pop up. I trust my son to know what he needs & when he needs it, in regard to nursing, sleep, food, education... why would I raise him like that but then force him to sit on the potty when he is genuinely NOT ready?







:







: Makes NO sense to me.

Not to me. Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.


LOVE this post, so true, so true!!!!!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Why is this *Thread* on a AP website? I can't believe Parents are being judged because their child is not PL by Age 2. This is sad.









You wouldn't find this type of judgement on a Mainstream site.

PS, DS has ZERO interest in PL and I am not pushing him. He will learn when HE is ready to learn.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

My child was well over 3 before she was interested in the potty. She was completely out of diapers within two months of starting her learning. I believe children should have complete control over this... they will start when **they** are ready. My 2 year old started to use the potty this spring and is now completely out of diapers.

I will not "train" my next child to use the potty either. I will always have it easily accessible to them... but i will not force the subject.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
Because you and MitB, and the others suggesting it on this thread know this boy better than his PARENTS who have said they are following his cues?







:

What if she decided he did or did not need to be eating solids? Would that be an appropriate thing for her to be trying to introduce on her time table or the parents?

Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Get a grip. Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"

Did you just say "Get a grip" to a mother at MDC who feels it's a good thing to follow a child's cues? I'm growing increasingly saddened by the number of mamas who are new here to MDC who promote ideas that are not AP. But you have been here a long time and I just don't get this coming from you.

"Get a grip."??? wow, just wow.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Did you just say "Get a grip" to a mother at MDC who feels it's a good thing to follow a child's cues? I'm growing increasingly saddened by the number of mamas who are new here to MDC who promote ideas that are not AP. But you have been here a long time and I just don't get this coming from you.

"Get a grip."??? wow, just wow.

And twice you have posted in this thread just to mock my posts and yet have added nothing to the discussion.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Humans are born defecating and urinating. They are not born able to eat solids, that is why we have breastmilk.
That is also why it makes sense to follow the child's cues on self feeding.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
And twice you have posted in this thread just to mock my posts and yet have added nothing to the discussion.

I did not mock you, I asked you about your post, not the same thing. Just because I do not feel the same way you do on this issue does not mean my posts have added nothing to the discussion.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"

I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Humans are born defecating and urinating. They are not born able to eat solids, that is why we have breastmilk.
That is also why it makes sense to follow the child's cues on self feeding.

And all apes and all hunter-gatherers wean, many non-gently, before a sibling is born. Tandem nursing is almost unknown. Yet I don't see anyone going over to the child-led weaning board and saying "Mothers instinctively want to wean, go with your parental cues." Instead, Mamas who are struggling with the desire to wean get lots of support for letting their children wean at their own pace and at a timetable which may be at odds with their own feelings, but in a way that works for their child.

Humans may be born defecating and urinating, but for millenia we didn't have toilets or clothing, either. Different peoples have come up with different plans for dealing with it. Many cultures swaddled infants tightly for up to a year, changing the wrappings and the diapering wadding only daily, if that. Not all those people lived in climates where they could not go naked. The variety in what is natural human behavior is HUGE - there is more difference between the behaviors of different groups than there is between *species* of other apes!

I don't think anyone is proposing keeping children completely ignorant of the existence of the toilet and what goes on there. Nor are they saying that those who choose to do EC are somehow hung up or abusive or not GD - why the insistence on calling those who are working with their older children *less* GD? Not everyone *can* do EC, given the demands of the rest of modern life, and if those who don't do EC do whatever they *do* with at least care to the environmental consquences of their decisions and with respect and love towards their children, why does it matter to *you*, and why should there be so much squick-and-judgement?


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Tandem nursing is almost unknown. Yet I don't see anyone going over to the child-led weaning board and saying "Mothers instinctively want to wean, go with your parental cues."

Well, actually, I think that tandem nursing is "unnatural" in the sense that it's not biologically optimal. But I would NEVER go over to the bf forums and say that, cause I'd be flamed right out of there!

I also tend to lean on the side that 3 is a bit old to still be in diapers, and I do blame the manufacturers of the products for older kids in having a vested interest in keeping kids in diapers longer. But I don't know enough about PL or ages kids PL to really say one way or the other.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"

My son NEVER had another child make a comment to him about stinking. When he pooped, I would take him to another room & change him; most kids were unaware that he was still in pullups. (Esp. when he got older, he would most often only poop when we were home. I imagine this is quite common.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Did you just say "Get a grip" to a mother at MDC who feels it's a good thing to follow a child's cues? I'm growing increasingly saddened by the number of mamas who are new here to MDC who promote ideas that are not AP. But you have been here a long time and I just don't get this coming from you.

"Get a grip."??? wow, just wow.

AMEN!!!







: I am as shocked as you are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
Humans are born defecating and urinating. They are not born able to eat solids, that is why we have breastmilk.
That is also why it makes sense to follow the child's cues on self feeding.

I don't understand what your point is here- at all. Humans are born pooping & peeing, then they transition to the toilet. Humans are born unable to eat solids, so they nurse & then transition to solid food. I did not force my son to eat cereal at 3 months, & I did not force him to use the toilet at 2 years.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.

Totally agree!!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
I don't think anyone is proposing keeping children completely ignorant of the existence of the toilet and what goes on there. Nor are they saying that those who choose to do EC are somehow hung up or abusive or not GD - why the insistence on calling those who are working with their older children *less* GD? Not everyone *can* do EC, given the demands of the rest of modern life, and if those who don't do EC do whatever they *do* with at least care to the environmental consquences of their decisions and with respect and love towards their children, why does it matter to *you*, and why should there be so much squick-and-judgement?


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith* 
As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.









: Our son is 3y4m, and peed in his potty for the very first time on Saturday (hasn't done it since, either).

I sit here astounded at the judgment flying around this thread. Yes, it's true that in other cultures children PL earlier. I lived in China -- most "toilets" are merely holes in the floor, not the commodes we're accustomed to in the U.S. I never walked down the street there without seeing a child being held up so s/he could pee or poop into the gutter through a slit in her/his pants. Our at-home caregiver is Armenian, and she says they stop diapering children there at around a year old, mostly because no one can afford to keep buying diapers.

But none of this has anything to do with our son.

Yes, we've tried it all. Yes, I've read the books and scoured the MDC threads and the internet at large. Yes, he's fully capable of using the potty . . . and he just doesn't feel like it. I have full confidence that he will PL at some point before he goes to college. This doesn't make me a bad, ignorant or lazy mother . . . just like the fact that he still nurses doesn't make me a bad mother . . . and the fact that he still co-sleeps . . . and the fact that he's not circumcized or vaccinated . . .

. . . but MY mom sure thinks it does.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


I also tend to lean on the side that 3 is a bit old to still be in diapers, and I do blame the manufacturers of the products for older kids in having a vested interest in keeping kids in diapers longer. But I don't know enough about PL or ages kids PL to really say one way or the other.
This reminds me of comments from people who have never nursed a toddler, but say if they are old enough to walk up to you and ask for it they are too old to nurse.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

I was once involved in a very similar discussion to this on another board and I posted thoughts similar to this:

When your child takes his first real test in school - will one of the questions ask when he potty trained?

When your child is graduating from high school and applying for college - will she have to disclose when she potty trained on her applications?

And when your child is looking for his first real job - will potty training be on his resume?

How about when she runs for public office - will her opponent bring up the fact that she potty trained early or late?

In the grand scheme of things - when your child potty trains will mean next to nothing in his/her life!


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## gen25gen (Dec 29, 2004)

I can't believe how judgemental so many people are about this issue. My 7 year old niece recently had a sleep over and wet the bed. she woke me up at 3am. It happens. I didn't make her feel terrible or think her parents were lazy because she was already embarrassed enough and these things happen.

My son is a later PL'er. He is bright, intelligent, we've been trying but not obessing. Like another poster said, pick your battles. From my experience girls do typically learn much quicker than boys on this issue. However, I've known girls who were just PLing during the third year so I hate to gender stereotype.

Just because a 3 year old isn't using the potty regularly with all incidents it doesn't mean the child is stupid, the parents or lazy, etc. Children learn different milestones at different times. Also, allow if there any big changes going on in the house such as divorce/seperation, moving, introduction of a new sib, etc. as all of these can slow down PLing.

For the people who are so grossed out by it, I feel sorry for you. What are you going to do if your child happens to go through a bed wetting stage later on or something? Have you ever had to care for an elderly adult who had incontence issues? Have you ever lost bladder control while you were pregnant? Come on, being 3 and still in diapers is really not "gross" or that big of a deal. I've known people who have started forcing potty training on thier kids and spent 6 months battling the issue--I'd rather just have a slightly delayed learner.


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

OK, I just read through this thread and feel the need to give my 2 cents.

I am surprised on this board that more support is not being given for "child-led potty training". Most of us would be horrified if you substituted "breastfeeding" for "potty training".

I am a lazy potty trainer. I give some encouragement, etc. but when they are ready, they will be ready. My children have all been trained after 3, my son later than the girls.

My 7 yo has never been dry at night. I have resisted pressure to put her on meds, it doesn't bother her, why should it bother me.

I see many, many kids not potty trained at 3. If you were my babysitter, I would let you know they are still in diapers, but I wouldn't want to be called to come back to change them. If it bothers you that much, you probably aren't the person for the job.

My opinion, and it's only that, is that we parents are much more concerned about this issue than the kids and their friends.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith* 









As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.

You're right about that









All my boys trained very late. Let's just say they were all wearing diapers at your son's age but now theyr'e not. None wore diapers in Kindergarten.

I had no idea it bothered people so much.


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.

Yeah, in my daughter's class of three year olds I've never seen a child be clued in to that, either.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Let me go on the record as saying that *most* moms with a child who is 3+ and not using the potty do NOT need ANY more suggestions.

The majority of moms I know with later trainers (myself included) HAVE TRIED WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SUGGEST.

Yes, we tried it.
Yes, we were consistent.
Yes, we stuck with it for more than a day.

What is is about the sight of the edge of a diaper above the pants of any child over three that makes it open season on comments? Heck, both my kids are *very* tall for their ages, so we started getting comments earlier than that. Random strangers on the street would first try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?") and then would offer me helpful "hints" like "have you tried naked time?" (Um, yeah. But maybe if you describe it to me for the hundredth time it'll suddenly work!)

.









I have so BTDT. Fun, isn't it?


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita* 







: Our son is 3y4m, and peed in his potty for the very first time on Saturday (hasn't done it since, either).

snip
Yes, we've tried it all. Yes, I've read the books and scoured the MDC threads and the internet at large. Yes, he's fully capable of using the potty . . . and he just doesn't feel like it. I have full confidence that he will PL at some point before he goes to college. This doesn't make me a bad, ignorant or lazy mother . . . just like the fact that he still nurses doesn't make me a bad mother . . . and the fact that he still co-sleeps . . . and the fact that he's not circumcized or vaccinated . . .

. . . but MY mom sure thinks it does.

We have the same mother







Hang in there it will happen


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## uberwench (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?")
^ grrrrr!

The whole ""you're a big boy now" drove me nutso - and I think contributed to DS not being super-interested in using the toilet "full time" until he was about 4. He'd just started to wean, and was really sensitive about the whole growing up thing. One of the reasons we left our first attempt at preschool was they wanted him to be out of pull-ups (at 3 and a half) and were really snarky with us about it when we said we didn't want to force him.

I made the toilet available and fun (lots of books to read, i'd stay in there with him if he wanted.) I tried to make the idea more of a "being part of the tribe" thing - it's something we all do, just like eating and sleeping. As he's a boy, the discovery that he could pee outside on a tree was hugely exciting.









And, fact is, when he did "get it" he got it all at once - he had maybe 2 pee accidents, tops, in the first couple of days wearing regular pants, then, never again.


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## rubelin (Feb 3, 2002)

Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

The argument here is a lot more simple than that.
I think most people here realize what EC is and how it works.
They didn't do it from birth for whatever reason.
Their 3.5 year old isn't potty learned and they are feeling embarrassed.
ECers come onto the thread and talk about how "weird" that is and "uncomfortable" that 'makes' them and spout off all the benefits of ECing. Well that's really great and all, but how does that help these mothers?...


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

Quote:

Their 3.5 year old isn't potty learned and they are feeling embarrassed
No embarrassment here! As I said in my post above, in the grand scheme of life, potty-learning is such a small thing!


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
No embarrassment here! As I said in my post above, in the grand scheme of life, potty-learning is such a small thing!









I didn't mean to imply everyone was embarrassed. I just frequently see threads of distressed moms asking for help and support, only to hear a constant stream of, "It's unnatural and weird, if you'd EC'd..." - it kind of brings them down, kwim?
My DD is potty learned now, but wasn't a month ago and while I wasn't embarrassed it certainly didn't _help_ my demeanor any to hear people come onto support threads in order to boast.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???

You can't pick and choose what's AP and what's Not when it's not *your child* at stake.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 







I didn't mean to imply everyone was embarrassed. I just frequently see threads of distressed moms asking for help and support, only to hear a constant stream of, "It's unnatural and weird, if you'd EC'd..." - it kind of brings them down, kwim?
My DD is potty learned now, but wasn't a month ago and while I wasn't embarrassed it certainly didn't _help_ my demeanor any to hear people come onto support threads in order to boast.

exactly, babs. i'm definately not embarassed k isn't pl'd, i'm maybe a bit frustrated over it (because, really, i don't enjoy toddler poo), and i would love someone to come in with a magic wand and make it so she'll pee and poo on the potty but that's just not going to happen. k is very bright and verbal and mature in a lot of ways, she just hasn't gotten around to pl'ing yet and i don't feel comfortable shoving her into it any more than i have (yo, the GUILT over the uti? i don't think i'll ever get over it). she'll learn when she learns. i don't need people who have NOT gone through what we have and are going through coming in and telling me how "uncomfortable" and "weird" it is that she wears a diaper. who here is changing MY kid's diaper besides me and my family?


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubelin* 
Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.

I don't see anyone flaming EC-ers here. I see a whole lot of mothers who have children who PL after 3 being told they are lazy, or neglectful for getting their children out of their own waste before they are 3 years old. Hell before they are 2. You need examples of what is setting diapering moms off? Ok. How about these?

Bolding mine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
I understand your discomfort. All six of my kids knew how to use the toilet by the tim ethey were able to get up on it. No child is going to wake up one day and decide to use the toilet. *I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.*
The toilet is the most sanitary and hygenic place to urinate and defecate, when living inside a city/house.
*
Since you are watching this child, can you help him learn to use the toilet?
It does become difficult when they have spent their entire life using diapers, but most children would rather not defecate/urinate on themselves.
*







Hope something gets resolved for you.

That would be what most othe moms are railing against.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
...
At the risk of inviting much displeasure (and knowing that my experience is unusual in our culture) I have to say that it seems that kids potty-learn much later these days then they used to. A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did. *Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.*
...

That's really judgemental. Lazy DCP or lazy parents.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
I seem to have a different View of this subject. I have 3 boys and all were introduced to the potty from birth and I used cloth diapers. All of them were PL'ed at 23 mos but still wetting at night occasionaly. I think parents in our scociety teach their babies and toddlers to use their diapers as a potty and then wait for readyness and then begin changing behaivior by talking about potty and visiting the potty. I think this is the problem. I personally am uneasy when I see a 3 year old in a diaper. They should at least be able to pee in the potty or outside by this age and out of diapers. Underwear are not much harder to change if poop happens adn it sends the child a clear lesson. *I would talk to the parents and say can you please bring a stack of underwear with the little boy because he may surprise them.*

Because again. A friend of the family who occassionally watches the boy knows him better than his parents is the under riding thought with that. Just wow.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen* 
*If it makes you uncomfortable (and it would me too) then consider talking to the mother about working on encouraging potty learning at home.* It may be that she is assuming that he will get up one day and decide to go in the toilet without any encouragment or instruction and he may, but I think it is unlikely that he will learn to use a toilet without knowing what to do and getting encouragement and the reassurance that accidents are okay and everyone makes mistakes and he can try again next time. He will probably just get used to having pee and poop against his skin and by the time his parents get tired of changing him they will have to go through a lot of effort to teach him and you will be stuck changing huge very disgusting diapers.

*If they won't teach him at home maybe you could teach him what to do at your house by letting him watch while the other children use the toilet, encouraging trying about every two hours and reading him a story while he is on the toilet. On top of this, try to make diaper changing time as quick and as boring as possible. There is a lot of attention given during a diaper change and if he learns to expect that while he is on the toilet he may decide that it is more fun to use a toilet.*

Again... You can't see why posts like this would upset mothers on this board who are VERY MUCH about making thier own decisions in their children's lives?!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
...

Yes, a child will be harmed if you ridicule them, hit them, demean them. But not if you treat them as a human being. *Human beings have spent a millenium not defecating where they eat, live and play, and especially not on themselves.*

STEEPED in judgemental language.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stayathomemommy* 
*I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.*

Again... MITB knows more than the child's parents?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies* 
*Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"*

again the whole thing uses inflamatory language. Perhaps not purposefully, but that's the way it comes across.

Now. Show me where any of the mom's on here are saying EC-ers are being abusive or lazy?


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## rubelin (Feb 3, 2002)

Quote:

ECers come onto the thread and talk about how "weird" that is and "uncomfortable" that 'makes' them and spout off all the benefits of ECing. Well that's really great and all, but how does that help these mothers?...
but the point is that THIS thread was not about the mother of an older PLer asking for help, it was a thread by an ECer asking for help to understand an older PLing child. This thread was NOT to help mothers of older PLers, it was to help an ECer. And I don't believe anyone spouted a single benefit of ECing, they just said what ECing is and that those who practice it generally do not "get" older children still being in diapers.

And Newmommy, you said

Quote:

Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???
What flaming responses are you talking about?? Because I saw no flaming of child-led PLing in this thread. I saw mothers explaining what EC was and the mommas who did PLing getting upset and flaming the ECers for posting their beliefs.

I am NOT being snarky, I really did not see a single pro-ec post that was judgmental or flaming of non ECers and I saw a ton of posts by mommas being defensive of their choices and calling the ECers judgemental. I don't get it.

I stay far away from PLing threads because I have nothing to offer. Yes, if you do EC, you don't need to PL, and I think that information is pointless to say to a mom who's doing PLing with an older child. Perhaps there have been a lot of ECers posting that sort of thing on those threads and all of you are just reacting to those posts and taking out your feelings about it in this thread, but that is not what this thread is.

Yes, I think EC is the best way, and I think it's easier than child-led potty learning. Late PLing looks a lot harder and seems very backwards to me but I don't judge those doing it. I do all I can in my life to educate people about EC so that they can have some options to avoid having to ever potty train their kids, becuase I think it's a more effective way to deal with these bodily functions. But just because you didn't learn of it or thought it was a load of crap (no pun intended







) or just didn't think it was right for you, that makes no difference to me and I'm not going to change your mind or TRY to make you feel bad about it. If you do feel bad about it when you hear that there might have been another way, that is NOT my fault.

I thing this bears repeating (all over these forums, actually) Nobody can make us feel guilt or shame for those things that we are not already feeling guilty or shameful about. If you made the right choice for you, then you will be proud of that and you will not feel ashamed when someone mentions an alternative. The person making the other choice and talking about how great that choice is for them is NOT making you feel guilt over not making the same choice, that is YOUR guilt and shame.

I can tell you wholeheartedly that I have not met a single ECer who would purposefully try to shame someone for not choosing to EC (and I have been in the ECing community for over 6 years and know THOUSANDS of ECers). We might be perplexed or not understand why you would not choose something that we think is simply amazing, but we would never try to make you feel bad about a choice you made. I can assure you that the ECing community is one of the most inclusive you will find. We try very hard to help ALL parents with Potty Learning, even those who did not EC, even though it is usually completely outside of our range of experience.

To be told constantly that we are judgemental and attacking when we are only trying to educate and defend ourselves from the constant attacks of those who think we are trying to push our children to grow up too early, rob our children of their babyhoods, force our children to use muscles that do not exist, etc, is insulting and hurtful especially on a board that is about supporting fellow mothers.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubelin* 
Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.

I have a splittting headache or I would answer your post in more detail... suffice it to say that I have seen MANY people in this thread, myself included, say that when we were posting about moms who force potty learning, we were specifically NOT talking about EC'ers. Having said that, though, it is kind of hard to take, when people are looking for support for late potty learners, for a bunch of posts saying, my child has not used a diaper since he was 4 months old... interesting, yes, & a valid way of raising a child, but not helpful in the context of the thread. I am not even talking about this thread, but many others. So the hatred & ridicule you have perceived goes both ways.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 







I didn't mean to imply everyone was embarrassed. I just frequently see threads of distressed moms asking for help and support, only to hear a constant stream of, "It's unnatural and weird, if you'd EC'd..." - it kind of brings them down, kwim?
My DD is potty learned now, but wasn't a month ago and while I wasn't embarrassed it certainly didn't _help_ my demeanor any to hear people come onto support threads in order to boast.

Exactly what I was trying to say!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???

You can't pick and choose what's AP and what's Not when it's not *your child* at stake.

Yep. I am sorry you felt shamed & embarrassed.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
I don't see anyone flaming EC-ers here. I see a whole lot of mothers who have children who PL after 3 being told they are lazy, or neglectful for getting their children out of their own waste before they are 3 years old. Hell before they are 2...

Loved your whole post; thanks. That is what I wanted to do but my head hurts so bad today







: I could not figure out where to begin.


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## rubelin (Feb 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
I don't see anyone flaming EC-ers here. I see a whole lot of mothers who have children who PL after 3 being told they are lazy, or neglectful for getting their children out of their own waste before they are 3 years old. Hell before they are 2. You need examples of what is setting diapering moms off? Ok. How about these?

Sorry, I didn't see you post before posting my above.

I'm sorry, but I didn't see all of those in the same light that you did. Yes, I cna see that some of them were attacking and I am sorry. And, at the same time I am sure that the comments that I considered to be attacking of ECers are probably things that a non ECer wouldn't see unless it was pointed out.

I should say that I don't consider MITB to be an ECer and never felt she was speaking for the ECing community, which is probably why I just ignored her comments for the most part. But she did make some valid points, whether it was said in a tacky way or not, it is a FACT that human beings, and all animals, are genetically programed to not wish to soil themselves. I am sorry if that fact is insulting to late PLers, but it is still the fact that, until very recent history, human beings did not use diapers.

Joesmom, in the context of THIS thread it was entirely appropriate for ECers to say what EC was in order to explain their mindset about older children in diapers. I still do not understand why feelings about posters in other PLing threads came into this discussion. Those should be addressed in those threads. I treat every thread on these forums to be a conversation unto itself and I didn't realize that not everyone does that. It did not make sense to me to see all this other stuff that did not seem to talk about the OP at all.

As I mentioned, I stay far away from PLing threads because it would be totally non-sequitor to mention my experience in a potty learning thread and because I have nothing to offer. But I also think it's not neccessary to attack someone who does do that, just let them know that their comment is not appropriate or helpful in that thread and move on with helping the OP.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

DD was almost 3, DS1 was almost *4*, and DS2, at 2y3m is no where near interested. I really wouldn't worry about it


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubelin* 
Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Judgement?

This entire thread has been filled with backhanded cracks at late potty learners. Just because a person phrases their post to avoid attacking a specific person doesn't make it nonjudgmental.

Sharing different points of view is saying "we did this from an early age and it works for us. We followed this cue and that cue, and by age X we were out of diapers. I know you've heard stories from your mom about how AMerican moms did it in the 40s, but it's not like that, in these ways."

Tell us how you did it, don't give each other hugs because its so traumatic to even think of a 3 year old in diapers. Don't turn it into an advice-fest for the parents in question. If you've only EC'd, such that other forms of pottying are unfamiliar to you, then _your advice isn't helpful_. It's like non-GD parents who walk up to someone with a crying child and say "What that kid needs is a good spanking!" or "When I was your age, kid, if I did that, my mom would blister my butt."

For that matter, when you compare yourself and other ECers to militant breastfeeders and those who don't EC to those who don't nurse -- don't you see what you're doing. You're equating NOT doing EC to not breastfeeding. And you may feel that's the case, and that is your opinion. But people who are trying to accomplish more traditional potty learning in a gentle way are not going to take kindly to hearing that.

I understand how EC works. I believe it work well for those who chose to do it. But at the same time, having read on it, I did *not* have a lightbulb experience. It was something that I read about and said, "That is an interesting choice, but it is not one that would ever be workable for our family." I'm glad it works for many people, but I am confident that the path we took was the best option *for us*.

I know that the older harsh techniques are *not* EC. But I, too, made reference to sociological data. Human culture is VASTLY varied, and things like PL vary widely between cultures. Google "infant swaddling bands" for some interesting data on infant care, for example.

Lines that attacked child-led PL?
Lets see:

Quote:

just a matter of his parents not seeing that he is ready
So the poster knows the child better than the child's own parents, who live with him and are raising him. Oh, the ignorant parents in this case!

Quote:

not age appropriate to diaper a child of this age
Generalize much?

Quote:

I really don't understand why parents would put that kind of responsibility on a child, anyways.
Meaning, of course that all parents who don't EC are putting too much responsibility on their children.

Quote:

But I personally think we have gone too far in the other direction and because of our fear of making our kids neurotic, have instead 3 and 4-year-olds who still poop in their pants--something that would be unheard of in many parts of the world.
Ah. Too far in the other direction. Fear. We're afraid. Best way to start a flame war? Call someone a chicken.

Quote:

I think that yes, there is something weird about a 3-year-old who still poops in his or her pants
Weird. Thanks. But because it's just sharing feelings, we're not supposed to feel judged if OUR specific 3-year-old does this. We're too sensitive.

YOu know, if this had been phrased "Because mine were all using the potty by that age, I can't imagine a 3-year old doing that." it would have been different. But "there's something wierd about a 3-year-old who does that." is saying "If I knew your 3 year old did that, I would think he was a wierd kid."

Quote:

wont wipe a child's bottom after about 4 &1/2. It makes me very uncomfortable.
Hm. I was PT'd early and I remember asking for help after some difficult, messy situations when I was older than that.

Quote:

I personally am uneasy when I see a 3 year old in a diaper. They should at least be able to pee in the potty or outside by this age and out of diapers.
So because you say so, it should be true for us all?
"They should" = generalization from one person's experience to all.

Quote:

ECers often go farther and say that to teach a child to poop in their pants at all is abusive.
"ECers often...." another way of taking a stab at someone but disclaiming that it is a stab at the same time. "I'm not gonna say it's abusive, but just so you know, a lot of us do actually think you're a child abuser. Just so you know. Don't take it PERSONALLY or anything. (cough)abuser!"

Quote:

I am perplexed as to why this is happening now in our culture.
Phrased to sound like it is bemoaning a horrible change in our culture. Meaning those of us with late PT-ers are part of the decline and fall of civilization?

Quote:

I don't have to feel guilty about filling a landmine with my kids dipes and excrement.
.... but YOU should!!! Feel guilty now!

Quote:

I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.
Again, lets judge these parents we don't know and know nothing of. This particular child *should*. Well, his parents have not chosen EC. Whether they chose it out of full knowledge or from not knowing about it, they didn't choose it. Let them do it on his timetable, now.

Quote:

EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children.
A shot across the bow in the "More GD than thou" wars. Over in the GD forums there is a LOT of talk about avoiding "behaviorism." You can't avoid behaviorism and still have a child who will pee when they feel the bowl under their rear. That is, by any definition you like, *conditioning*. Which says to me that there can be a disagreement about the best way to approach something "gently."

Quote:

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks.
"... And YOUR kid is the one who reeks, you shameful parent you."

Can you not see how these statements are attacks -- some backhanded, some not? They were not *sharing* EC and how it worked for them. These comments are straight-up *judgment* on those who do not choose EC.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Incidentally, the OP states that her DDs were PL'd -- not EC'd -- before they were 2, which is why she's uncomfortable changing the pants of a child over 3.

I'm jumping back in to say that I'm not at all embarassed or ashamed that my son still wears training pants (Poquito pants, BTW) at age 3+. But there were definitely posts in this thread that went out of their way to judge those of us in this situation.

I have no interest in how your child learns to use the toilet . . . really. But if you feel the need to criticize other mothers -- or fathers, for that matter -- you have way too much interest in how theirs do.


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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

wow. this thread has taken such a sad turn.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Well as the Mother of 3 year old who shows ZERO intereset in PL, those responses shamed and embarrassed me. I never thought I would see those flaming responses on a Natural Parenting website. In the instance of PL, you would think the AP philosphy would be child-led...why is PL an exception???

You can't pick and choose what's AP and what's Not when it's not *your child* at stake.

I agree! And I don't recall seeing EC being flamed but if it was that's wrong too. Why do people have to be so judgemental? And why hasn't this thread been shut down yet? Were it on some other parts of the board and something else (like extended breastfeeding) were being flamed it would have been shut down long ago.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ekblad8* 
I agree! And I don't recall seeing EC being flamed but if it was that's wrong too. Why do people have to be so judgemental? And why hasn't this thread been shut down yet? Were it on some other parts of the board and something else (like extended breastfeeding) were being flamed it would have been shut down long ago.

I completely agree. MDC just ain't what it used to be.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

My DD will be 4 next month she can do all the motions of tolieting great but is no where near training. She actually has a nurogical disorder that prevents her from being aware of her bowels. She will actually need to be taught through therapy to recongize some of these feelings and to "void on cue" She will likely be like this for a while right now its not anything and as her mom I'm fine with it plus its just how things are. I will need to be her voice as she gets older.







We hope she gains controll before its a big peer issue most kids with her condition with proper therapy outgrow it by age 6. I know lots of people IRL who think I'm just lazy that if I had started earlier or done EC or bribed or puished whatever it would be a non issue. I was told cloth would train faster (shes always been in cloth and just cloth not feel dry pockets) but fact is her brains not connecting.
FWIW I didn't understand EC at all a few years ago as somone who night time trained very late and knowing that feeling of complete helplessness I couldn't wrap my mind around it. I realize now that I just didn't understand. I still have questions and It still may not totally be the way I want to go but I deffiently respect it now.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

I just can't understand what the big deal is. If a kid is ready, then they are ready and if a kid isn't ready, then they aren't ready. Most of us on this board wouldn't blink at a 3 year old breastfeeding or sleeping with mom and dad or doing other "baby-ish" sort of things, so why is it a big deal if a kiddo is still in a diaper. If a parent is following cues from their child and not just ignoring signals, then they are doing the best they can for their child. I am personally a fan of letting children know where the potty is and what it is used for and then leaving it up to them for further action. Not that I think that is a one-sized fits all sort of answer, but just the method that I am the biggest fan of. I don't know why there are people who are getting so angry about it. I doubt this mom is being neglectful, she just has a son who isn't quite "there" yet for potty learning.

By the way, I saw one of my posts quoted above, but only a part of a sentence, and stated as a child led potty learning slam.... my post was never anti-child led potty learning. I just wanted to clear the air there, I am actually very for following a child's cues.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Don't we see this conflict between AP oriented and NFL oriented types in other contexts? Natural parenting and the attachment parenting movement are not the same thing. There is some overlap, but plenty that does not.


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## rubelin (Feb 3, 2002)

Just one last thing and then I'm walking away, because I really am not trying to piss anyone off.

I think one thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems any 2 sides of an issue can't seem to discuss either side without defensiveness and attacks. Both of these sides are AP and NFL but we can't discuss them in the same thread without both sides getting hurt.

And, for the record (and perhaps this is the thing that made me feel attacked as an ECer) EC is completely child-led. You can't do EC if you are not following your child's lead.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubelin* 
Just one last thing and then I'm walking away, because I really am not trying to piss anyone off.

I think one thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems any 2 sides of an issue can't seem to discuss either side without defensiveness and attacks. Both of these sides are AP and NFL but we can't discuss them in the same thread without both sides getting hurt.

And, for the record (and perhaps this is the thing that made me feel attacked as an ECer) EC is completely child-led. You can't do EC if you are not following your child's lead.

I still say that nowhere on this thread was anyone attacking ECing. I think that is a non-issue as far as this thread is concerned... it seems to me that everyone who posted about not pushing our children to potty train, made it clear that we were not talking about EC, even if EC is out of our realm of familiarity or comfort... There are far more posts here attacking moms of kids or even the "smelly" kids themselves who train late...

Someone said that the OP is an ECer so that is why she was questioning... But here is the OP:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natashaccat* 
Hi all,
I've started babysitting a 3 yo who is still in diapers and it's kind of freaking me out. _Both my dd's PL before they were 2 yo and it just feels wierd to diaper a child this old, it's definately pushing my cultural comfort zone of hygene and personal privacy, kwim?_
The mom tells me that he simply isn't interested and she doesn't want to push and I totally respect that. What I need from you guys is a little help in not feeling wierd about it, like perhaps some insight into what this child might be thinking and feeling. I'm sure that he can sense my discomfort with diapers and I don't want to do or say something that will hurt his feelings or make the situation at home worse.

FWIW his home situation is kind of bad, lots of sibling fighting. His parents are very loving but they are struggling with an older special needs child and both parents have difficulty with basic stuff like consistant discipline.

The italics are mine- she said her kids PLed before age two; nowhere did she mention elimination communication, so I guess that is why we did not feel we had to self censor our posts. I guess if you hang out in the EC forum you would know her to be an ECer, but I do not hang out there...


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm getting a glimpse of what the future holds for my DD. I knew she migh be looked down upon my "main streamers" assuming were just lazy parents but I though surely on MDC we'd find haven.







I guess not...


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I don't see it as relevant whether the OP or anyone uses EC or not. If you do great. Whatever.

If one uses EC and therefore doesn't understand diapers, they can either choose not to associate with people who use diapers (seems very silly to me) or maybe ask (in a respectful way) some questions about diapers. If it freaks them out, I see that as their issue. People have "issues" with lots of things. Maybe the person with the issue needs to deal with it. (Yeah, I have issues too, I admit it. Not with anyone or anything on MDC though-more like family stuff).

Getting back to my point-what I get from the OP is that she has issues. I see them as her issue only. Not anyone else's. I would personally say that not changing diapers may be the best way to deal. It would also be nice IMO to be direct about this if she's going to babysit other kids. It doesn't matter if 3 year olds wear diapers but if the OP isn't willing to change them she should be upfront about it. From what I've read, she has been and the situation has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita* 
Incidentally, the OP states that her DDs were PL'd -- not EC'd -- before they were 2, which is why she's uncomfortable changing the pants of a child over 3.

I'm jumping back in to say that I'm not at all embarassed or ashamed that my son still wears training pants (Poquito pants, BTW) at age 3+. But there were definitely posts in this thread that went out of their way to judge those of us in this situation.

I have no interest in how your child learns to use the toilet . . . really. But if you feel the need to criticize other mothers -- or fathers, for that matter -- you have way too much interest in how theirs do.

Venice Mamacita I think I quoted you before and I'm sorry to post such a trivial reply but I just have to say


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 
Venice Mamacita I think I quoted you before and I'm sorry to post such a trivial reply but I just have to say









Yes, don't we share a mother???


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

It just occurred to me, this kind of thing is not just diapers. As one who fed her kids from the family pot (so to speak) from the time they started eating, I find it a bit disconcerting to see 14 month olds being fed from baby food jars or kids who refuse to drink water ... and I will admit that on these issues, I just think it's weird that parents will willfully withhold from their 6 month old sips of water from mom's glass, and then complain that their 18 month old will take no water. Or that (and this is common in mainstream circles) parents will feed their kids uniflavored formula from near birth (by choice), tasteless rice cereal graduating eventually to baby food meat that has an odor that will make you want to hurl, and then complain that their 2 year olds will eat nothing but macaroni and cheese and maybe a single item of fruit.

Or that parents will withhold small objects from their babies in a developmental age when they are clearly naturally DRIVEN to learn to manipulate small objects in their mouths, and then worry for the next 2 years about their child choking.

I don't care when you take the diapers away from your kids, or whether you do it at all or instead, wait for the child to decide to walk away from the diapers. I really see it as the parents' choice of cost/benefits and really a much lesser issue for the child IF the parents are happy with the choices and don't punish for things that really are the parents' choice. PLing my son as a 1.5 year old is something I am able to do with him because I am not doing other things. It suits my needs and I really don't see it as an unreasonable burden for him, given that he is very high functioning and does not need to find food, shelter, clean, or do dishes, and he does not have a full time paying job yet. To think that he will be harmed by being asked to take the same reponsibilities that we place on 3 month old puppies and six week old kittens doesn't make sense -- to me -- given my unique children and my own priorities.

I do want to say something I have said before. The initial diapering is not child led. Diapering is a tool of parental convenience, the value of which diminishes over time until at some point for each baby/family the cost is more than the value. It is not much different from a pacifier. No baby goes out and buys herself a dummy nor does one come flying out after the placenta. I don't consider diapers to be particularly natural parenting and as ECers know, the bond of attachments with a child is not broken by communicating with them about elimination and the general rules of being human. At any age.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:

I don't consider diapers to be particularly natural parenting and as ECers know, the bond of attachments with a child is not broken by communicating with them about elimination and the general rules of being human. At any age.
So the question I have after reading this is...

Is do you feel that EC is more about the "rules" of being human than other parenting methods with regard to elimination? And if so... Do you think that makes EC-ers MORE THAN as parents than parents who chose other methods?


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!
All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
....are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.

Wow, that's scary to read on MDC.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

But motherculture, what makes 2 years old the magic number? Why after that age is diapering no longer acceptable? What if I throw out an arbitrary number and say that children after age 6, unless health conditions prevent it, should be able to use the potty and not need to be diapered? Just tossing out a number and saying that is that..... well, that is no different than people who say that babies should be weaned by x age, out of mama's bed by x age, able to self sooth by x age, etc. That just isn't the way I choose to parent. I choose to try to work with my children as individuals on all levels, so we take each thing as it comes and they do all things when THEY are ready.... not when little Susie down the street was ready.


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## joy2bmom (Aug 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
It just occurred to me, this kind of thing is not just diapers. As one who fed her kids from the family pot (so to speak) from the time they started eating, I find it a bit disconcerting to see 14 month olds being fed from baby food jars or kids who refuse to drink water ... and I will admit that on these issues, I just think it's weird that parents will willfully withhold from their 6 month old sips of water from mom's glass, and then complain that their 18 month old will take no water. Or that (and this is common in mainstream circles) parents will feed their kids uniflavored formula from near birth (by choice), tasteless rice cereal graduating eventually to baby food meat that has an odor that will make you want to hurl, and then complain that their 2 year olds will eat nothing but macaroni and cheese and maybe a single item of fruit.

Or that parents will withhold small objects from their babies in a developmental age when they are clearly naturally DRIVEN to learn to manipulate small objects in their mouths, and then worry for the next 2 years about their child choking.

I don't care when you take the diapers away from your kids, or whether you do it at all or instead, wait for the child to decide to walk away from the diapers. I really see it as the parents' choice of cost/benefits and really a much lesser issue for the child IF the parents are happy with the choices and don't punish for things that really are the parents' choice. PLing my son as a 1.5 year old is something I am able to do with him because I am not doing other things. It suits my needs and I really don't see it as an unreasonable burden for him, given that he is very high functioning and does not need to find food, shelter, clean, or do dishes, and he does not have a full time paying job yet. To think that he will be harmed by being asked to take the same reponsibilities that we place on 3 month old puppies and six week old kittens doesn't make sense -- to me -- given my unique children and my own priorities.

I do want to say something I have said before. The initial diapering is not child led. Diapering is a tool of parental convenience, the value of which diminishes over time until at some point for each baby/family the cost is more than the value. It is not much different from a pacifier. No baby goes out and buys herself a dummy nor does one come flying out after the placenta. I don't consider diapers to be particularly natural parenting and as ECers know, the bond of attachments with a child is not broken by communicating with them about elimination and the general rules of being human. At any age.

Can we say JUDGEMENTAL? WOW, very shocking to read all the judgemental comments in this thread.

Every child has its own personality, its own way of being, we're all like fingerprints we're all different, the way we parent is also different, there's no right or wrong unless we're abusing our children, there's no instruction booklet to tell us which way to do it, we all do what we feel is right for our children, i mean after all we love our children and want to do whats best for them, and when someone tells us what we're doing is "wrong" or "there's a better way to do it" of course we're gonna be defensive about it but IMO everyone here is doing whats right for their own children no matter how they potty train







. Lets face it here in about 50yrs or so(less for some) some of us Parents may be in the same position as our children, and we may need to wear adult diapers, i hope when/if that time comes someone that may hafta change us doesn't have negative judgements on us about it. I for one would want them to keep their negative comments to themselves, and if they feel uncomfortable with it i would hope they would go elsewhere. Just my Opinion


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

I want to get back to the original question from the OP - how to feel more comfortable, and I want to use a different angle to do it.

I had a job in an adult day health center where I had to help adults in the bathroom and change incontinence products. I was really concerned about this part of the job before I did it - and I was concerned b/c of issues like "hygiene and personal privacy." I didn't want to embarrass anyone. And I was a little grossed out at the thought of doing it.

And then I did it, and realized that it wasn't such a big deal. You can easily help someone in the toilet (or with a diaper) in a matter-of-fact way that is respectful of their needs and privacy, and is also completely hygenic.

In the end, a 3 year old is a person who deserves respect, just like these adults did, and as a caregiver who is charged with meeting the needs of someone, you do it.

Quote:

The mom tells me that he simply isn't interested and she doesn't want to push and *I totally respect that*. What I need from you guys is a little help in not feeling wierd about it, like perhaps some insight into what this child might be thinking and feeling. I'm sure that he can sense my discomfort with diapers and I don't want to do or say something that will hurt his feelings or make the situation at home worse.
Respect is the key. If you respect this mother and her child, I think you will be able to move past your own discomfort and meet his needs with respect. If you can't do this, I think you should inform the mother that you just aren't comfortable caring for her son.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!
All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.

Also, when my ds was 2, I showed him the potty, bought him underwear, read him stories about potties, showed him how mom and dad and grandma and grandpa and brother go, brought him to the potty, let him run around naked, tried stickers and treats, tried reading on the potty.. . .and you do all that and the kid still won't use the potty-- what are you supposed to do? Tie him to the potty? Use force? Guilt? Shame? What does it mean "to be a little stronger"? Eating, peeing, sleeping-- I can set the mood, provide the supplies, give encoragment, but the kid has to do the work. We started Pling at 2, he was done with diapers around his third birthday.

It seems like this thread has a very narrow window. What is the right age? What really is the difference between an early learner and a late learner? Just a few months.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents.
Do me a favor and don't. Truth is my DD will be in diapers for a while maybe a few years. She doesn't need your pity and neither do I. Do you honestly think every kid not PT by 24 months has invented a problem? I sospose my DD made up her EEG results.

I'm with the PP we did all that everything and nothing no connection. I had people tell me to punish her everytime she had an accident. We put away the diapers sold them totally removed them for over 6 months we did the formal training and DD went along perfectly happy but nothing unless she happened to be ready to burst when we put her on nothing no connection. A bright academically advanced little girl but zero connection. About 3 months ago we went back to diapers she was just getting lots of rashes and no connection. We finially had her tested and there is a medical reason to why. You cannot tell my looking even by watching how coperative she is in pottying. Yet here we are she will be 4 next month. Shes in diapers. Us taking them away is not going to magically PT her.
BTW many many many kids are NOT ready to train at two years even ones with out real delays like my DD. and for those kids you can strip them naked and strap them to a potty its not going to cure them.







:


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!
All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.











Wow.

Where do I start....


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
I want to get back to the original question from the OP - how to feel more comfortable, and I want to use a different angle to do it.

I had a job in an adult day health center where I had to help adults in the bathroom and change incontinence products. I was really concerned about this part of the job before I did it - and I was concerned b/c of issues like "hygiene and personal privacy." I didn't want to embarrass anyone. And I was a little grossed out at the thought of doing it.

And then I did it, and realized that it wasn't such a big deal. You can easily help someone in the toilet (or with a diaper) in a matter-of-fact way that is respectful of their needs and privacy, and is also completely hygenic.

*In the end, a 3 year old is a person who deserves respect, just like these adults did, and as a caregiver who is charged with meeting the needs of someone, you do it.*

Respect is the key. If you respect this mother and her child, I think you will be able to move past your own discomfort and meet his needs with respect. If you can't do this, I think you should inform the mother that you just aren't comfortable caring for her son.

Great post! I think you really cut to the heart of the matter.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
So the question I have after reading this is...

Is do you feel that EC is more about the "rules" of being human than other parenting methods with regard to elimination? And if so... Do you think that makes EC-ers MORE THAN as parents than parents who chose other methods?

As regards the first question ... if I restated it in detail the way I think you mean it, I think it's a legitimate hypothesis but I don't know.

Even if the answer were yes ... of course ECers are not "more than" as parents just because they EC. Who would say that? I believe I also said earlier in the thread that I think this is an issue for the parents not the children.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 
Wow, that's scary to read on MDC.

Please say why instead of just insulting the author. That is productive discussion.

As far as I can tell, these things that are making people feel judged are differences of parental ideology that fall well within Mothering's bounds as a place for NFL and/or AP discussion. I think attempts to quasi censor discussion within those bounds is bad for, well, society, and for MDC. A static ideology retains all its flaws and never advances. The minority viewpoint can easily be squashed by the majority, but don't forget one day the majority may realize they had things to learn, too.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
I'm thinking she could get a nurse to come out to her house for an evening. The nurse would totally enjoy babysitting a 9 yo (as opposed to what they ususally do) and the idea of dipes wouldn't freak her out. I would start checking with some agencies.

I was thinking the same thing... my SIL works in hospice and she changes diapers on grown adults. Not necessarily elderly, not necessarily mentally incapacitated either--but not able to get up and use a toilet. It is part of the job to treat every patient with dignity and take care of their physical needs. I second the suggestion of hiring a nurse from a home healthy agency. Where I live it costs around $14/hour.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Flor said:


> Also, when my ds was 2, I showed him the potty, bought him underwear, read him stories about potties, showed him how mom and dad and grandma and grandpa and brother go, brought him to the potty, let him run around naked, tried stickers and treats, tried reading on the potty.. . .and you do all that and the kid still won't use the potty-- what are you supposed to do? Tie him to the potty? Use force? Guilt? Shame? What does it mean "to be a little stronger"? Eating, peeing, sleeping-- I can set the mood, provide the supplies, give encoragment, but the kid has to do the work.
> 
> 
> > Exactly. Are people thinking that we (not speaking for everyone here but I'm sure others shared my experience)just sat around waiting for our child to tell us they wanted to use the potty?
> ...


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubelin* 
Just one last thing and then I'm walking away, because I really am not trying to piss anyone off.

I think one thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems any 2 sides of an issue can't seem to discuss either side without defensiveness and attacks. Both of these sides are AP and NFL but we can't discuss them in the same thread without both sides getting hurt.

And, for the record (and perhaps this is the thing that made me feel attacked as an ECer) EC is completely child-led. You can't do EC if you are not following your child's lead.

i don't see where anyone is feeling attacked for ec. people are throwing out "weird" and "strange" about 3 year olds in diapers (judging a BABY) and then calling parents lazy, ignorant or unperceptive.
i have no problem with ec. i did not do it with my children but i see it's value FOR SOME PEOPLE. i haven't once flamed ec in this thread but have been flamed for having a nearly-3 year old in diapers and have been told i'm doing something wrong because she's nowhere near potty training.
try a look from our side.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.

It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.

I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail! All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.

My son WAS in diapers for years. Four years. Big whoop. I gave birth to him expecting to love him unconditionally, to raise him up to be a self sufficient, happy, caring person. Guess what? He is. I changed my four year old son's poopy diapers & I do NOT regret it one bit. I NEVER look back & say, I wish I would have pushed him harder. If I HAD pushed him & he had developed encopresis because of it (very likely, because he was strongly opposed to using the toilet...)

I was not enabling, NOR was I letting Joe run the show. Your post is highly offensive, to me & to many other mamas I am sure. On a website that espouses the values of gentle discipline, I am seriously shocked that you would think it is appropriate to post something like this here.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
Do me a favor and don't. Truth is my DD will be in diapers for a while maybe a few years. She doesn't need your pity and neither do I. Do you honestly think every kid not PT by 24 months has invented a problem? I sospose my DD made up her EEG results.

I'm with the PP we did all that everything and nothing no connection. I had people tell me to punish her everytime she had an accident. We put away the diapers sold them totally removed them for over 6 months we did the formal training and DD went along perfectly happy but nothing unless she happened to be ready to burst when we put her on nothing no connection. A bright academically advanced little girl but zero connection. About 3 months ago we went back to diapers she was just getting lots of rashes and no connection. We finially had her tested and there is a medical reason to why. You cannot tell my looking even by watching how coperative she is in pottying. Yet here we are she will be 4 next month. Shes in diapers. Us taking them away is not going to magically PT her.
BTW many many many kids are NOT ready to train at two years even ones with out real delays like my DD. and for those kids you can strip them naked and strap them to a potty its not going to cure them.







:

THIS is why it is so important to follow your child's lead. I am so glad for you octobermom, that you did not push your dd. You should be proud of yourself for following your instincts & not caring what "society" might think.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 
Wow, that's scary to read on MDC.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Please say why instead of just insulting the author. That is productive discussion.

I'll say why *I* thought it was scary to read. I thought it was scary to read because it is the same sort of anti child crap that I could read at Babycenter. The author has fallen into the trap of believing that if you don't tell your child what to do & when to do it (EVEN IF you do it gently & respectfully, I am not saying this poster was in any way cruel to her kids...), then the kid is running the show. It was scary to read because there are SO many kids in this world, & they are all different. Kids walk, talk, LEARN at different paces. Why is potty training such a hot button issue? I personally think that the parents who are so gung ho on their kids being trained are afraid of what people will think- not of their kids, but of THEM. So afraid that someone will think they are lazy or bad parents that they put their child's well being in second place, & I think that is very sad, & very scary.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Please say why instead of just insulting the author. That is productive discussion.

I didn't insult the author, in fact I didn't even mention her. I commented on what she had said. I said it was scary: which is true, it is scary.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My kids run the show.

And one used the potty around 16 months, the other 26 months. Never had to lie to them and tell them all the diapers in the world were used up, or the Easter Bunny took them, or Mommy just decided you have to do what I do, or give them stickers and candy.

And they might not have and that would have been *fine* with me.

My kids also run the show on when they wean, what they eat, when they leave the family bed, how they learn to read. They've been quicker on the reading and pottying things than the weaning and family bed things. And that's fine with me. I like 'em how they are.

And I honestly couldn't care less how "humans" do it.

Letting the kids run the show leads to a really funny, super amazing show.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 
I didn't insult the author, in fact I didn't even mention her. I commented on what she had said. I said it was scary: which is true, it is scary.

Okay honestly what is scarry abut it? My DD is almost 4 she is still in diapers she lets me know when shes we or messy but cannot tell me before hand. Is it the most exciting part of the day no but scarry????


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Letting the kids run the show leads to a really funny, super amazing show.
















That is the best quote I have read here in a LOOOONG time!!







:







: You rock!


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
Okay honestly what is scarry abut it? My DD is almost 4 she is still in diapers she lets me know when shes we or messy but cannot tell me before hand. Is it the most exciting part of the day no but scarry????

Um, I'm on _your side_.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 
Um, I'm on _your side_.









Okay I miss read and got my posts mixed up. Way tooo much going on in this thread.







:


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## rubelin (Feb 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture* 
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!

Wow, now THAT is definitely judgemental, and kinda rude and attacking. And I don't think you understood what PigPokey was saying, or at least not the tone of what she was saying.

I do happen to agree with everything PigPokey said, and I don't believe that she or I are meaning any judgement when we say it nor are we saying that one parent is better for one choice or the other. We are saying that different parents make different choices based on our own circumstances and on what our different beliefs are.

Quote:

I do want to say something I have said before. The initial diapering is not child led. Diapering is a tool of parental convenience, the value of which diminishes over time until at some point for each baby/family the cost is more than the value. It is not much different from a pacifier. No baby goes out and buys herself a dummy nor does one come flying out after the placenta.
This statement is a fact. It is true that we, as parents in this culture, over time have chosen to put our babies into diapers. There's no judgement intended in that (at least from me), it's just what we've done. And there have been consequenses of that choice which are upsetting for some and others are just fine with the consequenses.

Honestly, judging individual mothers in a culture that taught them over several generations that something was right is just mean. I do not believe that any of you intentionally ignored your baby's cues and signs of wanting to use the potty and slapped diapers on them in order to ignore those signs. I think that if you believed that your baby was signalling to you that they did not want diapers that you would not have forced your child to wear them (and I'm not saying you DID force your child, because, obviously, you don't believe they minded at all).

And, you know what, if you DID know that your baby was telling you they didn't want to go in a diaper and you consistanly ignored them on purpose, yeah, I do think you were putting your needs over theirs and I don't think you made a good choice, but I don't think that anyone on this board would do that.

I know that a child who has worn diapers their entire life needs to be given as much time and space as possible to make such a huge change. Even with a child who has used the potty from birth, 2 years old is a hard time for pottying (hell, 2 is a hard time for just about everything!)


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 







Okay I miss read and got my posts mixed up. Way tooo much going on in this thread.







:









That's okay, I was just confused for a minute there.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Or that (and this is common in mainstream circles) parents will feed their kids uniflavored formula from near birth (by choice), tasteless rice cereal graduating eventually to baby food meat that has an odor that will make you want to hurl, and then complain that their 2 year olds will eat nothing but macaroni and cheese and maybe a single item of fruit.

Sorry, I justh ad to repsond to this.

My 3 yo DD was and is still breast fed. Had no solids until after the 6th month (because she wasn't interested) and was fed EXCLUSIVELY from the family "pot". Homemade soups, fresh veggies and meats, homemade whole grain cereals with organic molasses, etc. NEVER have rice cereal or formula. And she still will only eat macaroni and fruit. Seriously. Breakfast, lunch and dinner. It came to this not because she was givent this to be "Easy" or whatever. But because she said she hated everything else and we gave her pasta and cheese as a last resort.

So my point is and what I have learned through raise my unique DD... children are going to be who they are and do what they want REGARDLESS of what you feed them, how long you diper or do not diaper them, where they sleep, etc, etc, etc. This doesn't mean that it isn't up to us to present them with the healthiest and best alternatives that we can manage. But in the end we cannot force them to do anything they don't want to do nor is it our job.

I won't go into rambling details, but my DD is the case in point for this. I started out wanting to follow the AP checklist, nursing, family bed, GD, babywearing, etc, etc, etc... well some of them just didn't work for her personality. So I had to realize that there isn't one list or one way that was right or wrong.

Hopefully, you'll never be faced with having to do this. But if you do, I hope you won't have people making you feel like somehow you're failing or not doing something perfectly right.


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