# pushing teenagehood younger and younger



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Has anyone else noticed that society has been pushing the concept of teenagehood younger and younger?

I haven't quite put my finger on how and why this is happening. And I didn't specifically notice it when dd was younger, but now when I look back on it I see it. Mostly from my mom.

Random example: I remember her buying dd those little camisole bra and panties sets at about 8ish. I wasn't on the shopping trip. And I don't have a problem with kids having them if they want them. But just the fact that they exist seems to be a push to make younger kids older than they are.

In our case I am sure they were all my moms idea. DD has never been into that stuff and my mom has poor personal boundaries and was pushy like this with me.

But now it's getting really pervasive. And I'm not specifically talking about clothes but it seems expectations have significantly changed.

I think I was pretty much out of the loop due to HSing and our limited TV watching ect so we have been out of the cultural loop quite a bit. We don't limited access to tv it's just that dd was never into the shows like Hanna Montana ( or whatever would have been on 10 years ago when she was that target age ) I guess it would have been Cheetah Girls or something? I remember her friends grandma mentioning that show.

I don't know, just a ramble.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

I think it's always been there underneath, like in adults thinking it's all cutsie when kids have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends" and encouraging that kind of stuff. But IMO clothing companies, etc., finally figured out the 'tweens were a good marketing target for this kind of merch, making it more acceptable to everyone else, and the more acceptable it becomes to parents, the more they're make in the way of inappropriate items. I'm just comforted that at least there was some outcry over Abercrombie's thong for girls awhile back. Though it's hardly slowed them down.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Has anyone else noticed that society has been pushing the concept of teenagehood younger and younger?
Random example: I remember her buying dd those little camisole bra and panties sets at about 8ish. I wasn't on the shopping trip. And I don't have a problem with kids having them if they want them. But just the fact that they exist seems to be a push to make younger kids older than they are.

I don't know, just a ramble.

Gosh, I wore white cotton undershirts and panties up to my waist when I was 8.
Yes, teenage-hood is happening earlier. Some of it may be inevitable. Our kids have access to the entire world now.
When I was a kid, my parents were passionately involved in politics but I didn't have a clue. 13 yo DD is all over the election. She knows the issues and is making some pretty mature observations and drawing sophisticated conclusions.
Through the internet she has learned about how most of the world's citizens don't have access to clean drinking water. She is launching a project for her Bat Mitzvah to raise $5000 so Engineers without Borders can bring a clean water system to a village in a developing nation. I don't share this to brag about her. I know many of her peers who are equally passionate about causes and take action. They are years ahead of me at that age.
I think that element of kids maturing a little earlier is good. It creates global citizens.








Now, the sexualizing stuff I hate. I mean what 13 yo needs a padded push up demi-cup bra?







:


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## FondestBianca (May 9, 2008)

Heck, I'm even annoyed when I see skirts that don't have those built in shorts, in sizes for 2 to 6 year olds! Little girls don't know or aren't taught to keep their behinds out of public display and clothing companies must just think it's cute for 5 year old girls to be hanging upside down on the monkey bars at school showing their underwear to fellow students, recess aids, and passers by.

Not cute at all! We can't be too careful with the youngins these days. But, it does all come down to parents. No one forces anyone to buy the skimpy clothes or to watch the teen and adult TV shows.

It wasn't that long ago that I was "a kid" but, I can certainly say it's gotten exponentially worse since then. Part is not to do with expanding what kids and teens can do and be around but what us, as adults allow ourselves to do and be around. The farther we push casual sex and related issues around as being funny, entertaining, or nessesary, in public forum (or in the home), telivision, and culture the farthur our children will follow without us noticing or making changes.

Sad but, true.

Do as I say, not as I do attitude just doesn't work. That is why I am an example for my child. That way when she sees something else she isn't able to say, "hmmm, mom does that too, so I guess it's ok." I may wear more makeup than I'd like my daughter to wear (when she is old enough to wear it that is) and maybe I eat a lot of cakes and desserts that don't set a totally healthy example but, myself and my hubby don't drink, do drugs, smoke, use bad language, or allow other to do so around our child. I think thats important. Sooner or later your kids figure out everything you do and they WILL use that as an excuse to do the same. They shouldn't.... but they do. Darn kids... why do they have to figure stuff out?


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

Little girls don't know or aren't taught to keep their behinds out of public display and clothing companies must just think it's cute for 5 year old girls to be hanging upside down on the monkey bars at school showing their underwear to fellow students, recess aids, and passers by.
I don't recall there being a whole lot of skorts available when we were kids. Most of the skirts available for my kids are skorts.

Part of the issue, imo, is parents who are holding their kids back so they're the oldest in the class. This is brining higher maturity down to younger grades. My dd is in Grade 4. At least 3 kids in her class are 11, have AF, wear makeup, definitly have breasts & wear bras. The other 12-13 kids in her class are 9 or just turned 10. The ones who are 11 are on a much different maturity level than my dd who is 9 just becuase they're 2 years older.

I remember looking through the sears catalogues & seeing the camisole bras/panties for younger girls, some NEEDED them(bra in general) at 8. now it was definitly not as many who needed them at 8 as there is now but it was there.

Some of it I think we notice because we're adults now. More & more people have either cable or satellites than before so there is more access to shows that may not have been available on peasant vision. Add in internet now too.

The magazines, idols, even some of the clothes are the same just with a different face or name.


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## tex.mom (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
I don't recall there being a whole lot of skorts available when we were kids.

No, but since I've had a dd, both my mom and my mil have repeatedly voiced their distress that skirts don't come with matching bloomers anymore! They seek out the few that do, and my mom was even all excited to find some plain ones for her to "wear with everything!"


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

It's not specifically clothing that is the issue. Clothing is a byproduct of our culture that is pushing kids to be older than they are.

I remember at 13 my mom buying me black satin wrap around pants. And this was in the 70s. I'd forgotten about it until now. But the issue is parents ( they are the one buying the stuff ) pushing their kids to be older than they are. I know none of my peers were crying for those pants. I think I only wore them out in public like 1-2 times and then I quit. I couldn't sit down in them without showing my whole leg up to underwear and I didn't ask for them or really want them. But my mom thought they were cool and she wanted me to have them.

My mom tried to do the same with dd, ( obviously not with the same pants







) but I stopped that. Not because I have an issue with kids clothing in general but because it was more about my mom using me and trying to use her as her personal barbie doll.

I don't like the forced bras. I refused to do it and dd never wears a bra now, even though she wanted to try them when she was younger and I bought them for her. Now she never wears one by her own choice.

Since I started this thread I started remembering things I had forgotten about my own teenage years.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
I don't recall there being a whole lot of skorts available when we were kids. Most of the skirts available for my kids are skorts.


When I was a kid one my teachers required girls to wear shorts under their dresses. Of course this was back in the day when dresses were expected attire for grade schoolers


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Short skirts are new? This is from the 1930's:

http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_03_img1366.jpg


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

UUMom- that dress very likely came with matching "bloomers" or shorts of some sort.

DD2 had her first 'bra" at age 3- I took her to the store to pick out panties in the hope of encouraging her to use the toilet, and she selected a matching "bra" (half undershirt) and panty set, among others. She was very upset when I wouldn't let her wear the bra with her pullups! I insisted she stay dry all day before wearing any of the new undies!









That was purely a case of a tiny girl wanting to dress like Mommy- no "preteen" stuff going on there!

And when I was about 10 I wanted Wonderoos because some of the styles came with "bra like" tops instead of "undershirt like" tops- I don't think that a girl's desire to grow up and dress like a woman before her body is quite ready yet is anything new. I think that there's more materialism in general, more items being made and sold, so lots of things that would have been "wish list" material in the past become "shopping list" items now.

I don't see the problem with padded bras for preteens or young teens who are starting to develop- DD1 was very sensitive to her nipples showing through clothing, and would literally wear 4-5 layers for "modesty" (sports bra, undershirt with built in bra or 2 undershirts, another layering T, then her shirt, or one less "underlayer" if she wore a sweater or sweatshirt that day) before I bought her some padded bras.

And once you're getting into "demi cup pushup bra" then you're overlapping sizes with petite adults. Most "teen bras" go up to a B while there are slender adults who wear an A or even a AA.

I have to wonder how much of this "early adolescence" is really a case of little girls acting like teenagers, and how much of it is simply that they're wearing different styles of clothes and don't really "mean anything" by it. I don't think an 8yo child is any less innocent if she's dressing like Hannah Montana than if she's dressing like Marcia Brady. Besides, Hannah Montana is quite an innocent show, and from what I've seen in interviews, Miley seems like a genuinely nice kid. So what if the clothes are a little flamboyant?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I dont see any bloomers. And even if there were matching panties...what's the difference in the color of the undies? It's still short. lol You can see through the first dress layer, under which is an ever shorter layer.

I agree that clothing is not the issue, at any rate.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

My almost 16 yr old has red streaks of manic panic in her hair. And right now she is playing hot wheels cars with her sister and toddler nephew and having a grand time.

It's not about looks...it's simply not. Experimentation on the outside--- to look like mommy or have fun with hair color or what-have-you, does not change the inner life of a person. The outside may change in response to inner changes, but the inner person does not change because of playful experiementation. Wanting to play grown- up with mommy's bra or wear thong like mommy doesn't actually mean you want to take on the role of adult for good. Even mommy mostly wears the thong so she don't have pany lines.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Personally I believe this extended childhood we force upon people in our society is what's unnatural. In the old days you were a woman once you got your period.. still in many societies girls are married and having babies at 13. While I don't think there's anything positive about that, I believe people over the age of 12 should have a LOT more autonomy then they are allowed.

I think teenagers today would be a lot less frustrated and rebellious if they had some control over their lives, instead of having no options until they are out of high school, and being called 'kids' until they were 25 years old.

Children that are even younger than that are capable of managing a lot of their own affairs if they are given the option. Not to say we should be shoving our kids out into the world to fend for themselves.. I'm just saying a lot of things need to change, and I think if they did, teens would step up and make important choices for themselves.

Of course I think most pop culture stuff is just awful, and no, pre-teens shouldn't be sexualized and spend all their time obessing about their looks.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Well ITA about teens having more control over their lives. I think kids in general should have more control over their lives and their opinions considered. That is why we are a CL family. It's also why I'm not talking about child led decisions here. I'm talking about anyone other than the child doing the urging or making the assumptions.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

I certainly wasn't trying to say anything negative about you Arduinna. My hat goes off to any family who practices CL.. it's an amazing thing to do.

My point I guess is that it ebbs and flows. Overall I don't see much of a difference in kid's clothes. Trends are trends and they trickle down. My 9-year-old mom was wearing mini skirts in the late 60s, same as her grown sisters. There are a lot of bras in kids sizes, but then kids are developing a little earlier these days. I did notice at Old Navy, all the stretchy kid's tank tops have a shelf bra included. Even size 6! That seems a little strange to me.. are they concerned about show-through?

I'm 22 and I don't see much of a difference in what the pre-teens are doing now. When I was their age the Spice Girls had just come out, it was difficult to find shirts that didn't show your belly, everyone in my 5th grade class except me was wearing a bra whether they needed it or not, and everyone had boyfriends and girlfriends, and spent a lot of time talking about it, and dancing like N*Sync. Seems pretty much the same with my BF's 11-year-old niece this year.. at least Hannah Montana is a better role model than Britney Spears was to my generation.

I guess I'm just talking about the effect of popular culture here, which not all kids are exposed to. I think when kids see all kinds of tv, movies and marketing towards teens, they are more likely to want the same things themselves..

Quote:

Heck, I'm even annoyed when I see skirts that don't have those built in shorts, in sizes for 2 to 6 year olds! Little girls don't know or aren't taught to keep their behinds out of public display and clothing companies must just think it's cute for 5 year old girls to be hanging upside down on the monkey bars at school showing their underwear to fellow students, recess aids, and passers by.
I'm confused by this statement. 30 or 50 years ago all girls were wearing skirts to school every day. Most girls I see nowwear pants the majority of the time. I don't have a problem with a 5-year-old showing her underwear. It's a 5-year-old and there is nothing sexual about her body. Just because there's a big focus on pedophiles in the media lately doesn't mean we have to teach little girls to never show their bodies. They're going to get shamed enough when they get older..


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Oh I didn't think you were, it's all good


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

What's CL?







:


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

I have my own bias, being that I was an early developing child and I see many many young developing girls around me. I think its great they are finnaly making underwear like that for younger girls (not the padded bras obviously), it was impossible to find anything for myself when I was budding at 8. At 11 I was wearing a 36B, and had to shop in the womens department to get it, it was humiliating and I hated the lack of "kidlike" prints.

as for lack of skorts, we had hardly any in my day as well, i wore dresses and was a tomboy, never once did I care about my underwear accidently showing while climbing a tree or hanging upside down on the monkey bars. its just a peice of underwear, who cares.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
What's CL?







:

consentual living.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FondestBianca* 
Heck, I'm even annoyed when I see skirts that don't have those built in shorts, in sizes for 2 to 6 year olds! Little girls don't know or aren't taught to keep their behinds out of public display and clothing companies must just think it's cute for 5 year old girls to be hanging upside down on the monkey bars at school showing their underwear to fellow students, recess aids, and passers by.

I see this quite differently. Why _should_ a 2 or 3 year old (or even 5 year old) have to wear shorts under her skirt? The obsession with someone seeing their panties seems to me to be part of the early sexualization of children. What difference is there if a preschooler flashed her panties or flashes a pair of shorts? There is nothing sexual about the butt of a child that age. There is no curve to the hips, no rounded butt. There is no difference between a girl of that age in her undies and a boy.
I was in primary school in the early 70s, and I remember my school skirts being very short, with no shorts underneath.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
I see this quite differently. Why _should_ a 2 or 3 year old (or even 5 year old) have to wear shorts under her skirt? The obsession with someone seeing their panties seems to me to be part of the early sexualization of children. What difference is there if a preschooler flashed her panties or flashes a pair of shorts? There is nothing sexual about the butt of a child that age. There is no curve to the hips, no rounded butt. There is no difference between a girl of that age in her undies and a boy.
I was in primary school in the early 70s, and I remember my school skirts being very short, with no shorts underneath.

Heh. My mom wouldn't let me leave the house without bike shorts under my skirt till I was 17 and I pitched a fit.

But I've always been very fond of climbing trees.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

well somewhere in the preteen years, I see the "don't show everyone your panties" thing. When the body starts to develop, when there are the beginnings of curves, the preteen body becomes "disturbing" because it is _potentially_ attractive, because it begins to look like a female body, but still very wrong, because it is still a child.


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## FondestBianca (May 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
I see this quite differently. Why _should_ a 2 or 3 year old (or even 5 year old) have to wear shorts under her skirt? The obsession with someone seeing their panties seems to me to be part of the early sexualization of children. What difference is there if a preschooler flashed her panties or flashes a pair of shorts? There is nothing sexual about the butt of a child that age. There is no curve to the hips, no rounded butt. There is no difference between a girl of that age in her undies and a boy.
I was in primary school in the early 70s, and I remember my school skirts being very short, with no shorts underneath.

for me I think it's a safegaurd. Something we have to think about now with society being so different. I've been able to hear gradeschool age playground conversation when they didn't think I was paying attention. I think little girls shouldn't have to pay attention to the skirts but, when little boys are doing naughty things and teaseing (not your oldschool "I see Paris, I see France") in a very sexually aggressive way and older boys are paying WAY too much attention I'd rather limit my daughter a bit in order for her to be lees likely a target to these aggressive boys. Right now there is no threat but, once in school I can't be there nor expect 2 recess teachers to overhear conversations of 100 different students spread around a playground all at once.

Just a minute ago I read a post here about a little boy who got in trouble for aggressive sexual behavior against a little girl... on the playground. We can't completely insure these things won't happen in our kid's lifetime but, I think we can give them tips to being less vournable.

I lock my doors at night. I don't think I should have to. My house, my life, my right.... but, I lock them anyway. I can have all hope for society to turn around and talk all I want about how we need to take our inocense back but... I'm still going to lock my doors. For me there is a line to be drawn. I personally don't want to wait until a magical age when girls should keep their skirts down (6,7,8,9,10,11,12... whatever) to inforce that my daughter do her best to keep it down in public places. To me, not doing so would be like waiting to lock the doors of my house until the magical number of violent crimes happens in my town.

IDK, just me. I'm sure there are things other parents are more strict or limiting about that I am not. None of us are bad parents for it. It's all out of love and care for our kids. We don't need to judge other parents for a measure that is intended for safety and well being... no matter how confusing it sounds to us.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

sub (to come back later cuz I don't have time right now)


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## SusanElizabeth (Jun 2, 2006)

This forum is the perfect example of "pushing teenagehood younger". There are *very f*ew places on the internet where parents of teenagers can talk, and this is one of the few. Some of the topics posted here are not concerned with teens or preteens but with pre-pre-teens.


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

ITA, we dress modestly, and i am not looking forward to the day when my kids realize there are more clothing options then what I bring home for them


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SusanElizabeth* 
This forum is the perfect example of "pushing teenagehood younger". There are *very f*ew places on the internet where parents of teenagers can talk, and this is one of the few. Some of the topics posted here are not concerned with teens or preteens but with pre-pre-teens.

I'm not sure whether you are thinking that this is good/bad or just an observation? My 2cents is that some of what I always thought would be pre-teen/teen behavior is happening a little earlier than expected. It's pretty different from what gets talked about on the early childhood boards. My pedi tells me that there are huge changes between 9-11, so I know this isn't all in my head. Rather I think I didn't know very much about the emotional development of kids at this age until I was in the thick of it. I'm not pushing it-it's here and I am so glad for the support here.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Never mind. I feel like I live in a different planet. lol


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FondestBianca* 
Heck, I'm even annoyed when I see skirts that don't have those built in shorts, in sizes for 2 to 6 year olds! Little girls don't know or aren't taught to keep their behinds out of public display and clothing companies must just think it's cute for 5 year old girls to be hanging upside down on the monkey bars at school showing their underwear to fellow students, recess aids, and passers by.

This is why I've always put shorts underneath a dress on my DD when she wears a dress.







I get comments on this all the time about how smart I am for doing this.









Quote:

ITA, we dress modestly, and i am not looking forward to the day when my kids realize there are more clothing options then what I bring home for them
I agree.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

I am so freaking annoyed at the shorts under skirts rule because DD always loses the little shorts







We have so many cute skirts that she can't wear.

I was just thinking the other day about how they do seem to be reaching adolescence earlier. I think it is partly due to the things they are exposed to, and partly because I have noticed that they are physically going through adolescence earlier.

The other day DD told me about a note a boy wrote about her, saying she was "hot and sexy"







: she is 8!!!!! They are pairing up and some of them are kissing (?) DD loves Hannah Montana, and though she is a better role model, she is a teen, and DD acts like a little teen sometimes. I try to discourage that, but when I am not around and she is with her friends......


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree with Calidris and Wonderwahine.

Just yesterday, my dd was wearing a dress and sometimes her underwear got flashed couple times on the monkey bars. No one batted an eye.

I don't think it has anything to do with sexual aggression or violence, and I am not going to be that responsibility on girls. That responsibility is squarely on those who are sexually violent or aggressive.

Anyways, I haven't found teenagedom being pushed younger since I was a teenager. While my kids are still young, I have cousins in grade 7 and 9, so I do have awareness of teenage culture currently.


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## superstella (Aug 25, 2006)

Hmm, I remember getting in trouble in Kindergarten (at age 4) for kissing a boy during naptime!







.

My kids vary in age from 18months to 16years. There are 5 of them, so I have a wide sample here. Just so you all know where I'm coming from.

As to the things in this forum being pre-pre-teen sometimes, well, sometimes they are but there really isn't a place where those things fit. Sometimes it's about an issue that doesn't pertain to "the childhood years" because it's more of a growing up problem. And yet, the child isn't a teen yet... so where does it belong? Where does that child belong?

My dd started developing breast buds at around age 9 (late) or 10 (early). She didn't want to wear a bra, but like Ruthla's dd was terribly terribly concerned that her nipples would show through her shirt. She still is (at 12). Now she wears a bra, tank, tee, and sweatshirt most days because she is mortified at the thought that someone might see her nipples through her shirt. And she hates it when I wear shirts without a padded bra, and she really, really hates it when I bf in public (well, not anymore but until very recently)!

I can also remember wanting the underoos because they were more "grown up" than the little girl bloomers and undershirts.

I can remember a particular picture I have of my little sister at about 8 in a midriff shirt and mini skirt, a la Madonna 80s lol.

I think perhaps the styles have changed but the underlying desire for children to grow up has not. I couldn't wait to grow up! My children are much the same. I agree with the pp who said that most kids could use a little more autonomy in regards to their lives and decision making. THere will be exceptions, of course, but most teens are capable of much more than we give them credit for.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

8 and 9 year olds are 8 and 9 year olds. The issues are not the same as they are for teens. Or even 12 year olds for that matter. I think society has a freak out over the tiniest sign that a kid will become a teen and as a result pushes them into that group prematurely. The beginings of breast buds is easily addressed and is not inexplicably tied to the issues that teenagers have in life.

8 and 9 is 3rd and 4th grade for heavens sake. Yea to me that is definately still children and not preteen. Kids that age have very different needs than preteens and teens do and their should be different expectations but unfortunately for many parents their aren't which is why I started the thread.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

so when an 8 or 9yr ol starts talking about her freinds having sex or a whole host of other things we think of as only teen issues, what are you supposed to do, hang around with the moms of 6 and 7yr olds and ask their advice?

I dont think anyone is pushing anything, kids are just dealing with things at an earlier age now, and thats just reality.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I talked to my kid about puberty and sex, I certainly didn't wait till her friends were talking about it.

What did you do when it happened to you as a parent wonderwahine ?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhubarbarin* 
Personally I believe this extended childhood we force upon people in our society is what's unnatural. In the old days you were a woman once you got your period.. still in many societies girls are married and having babies at 13. While I don't think there's anything positive about that, I believe people over the age of 12 should have a LOT more autonomy then they are allowed.

I think teenagers today would be a lot less frustrated and rebellious if they had some control over their lives, instead of having no options until they are out of high school, and being called 'kids' until they were 25 years old.

Children that are even younger than that are capable of managing a lot of their own affairs if they are given the option. Not to say we should be shoving our kids out into the world to fend for themselves.. I'm just saying a lot of things need to change, and I think if they did, teens would step up and make important choices for themselves.

Of course I think most pop culture stuff is just awful, and no, pre-teens shouldn't be sexualized and spend all their time obessing about their looks.









ITA!

I am not a mom of teens but I have a little sister I am helping (14) and this has all been on my mind lately because of it. But I did want to talk about the bras- I was a C cup at 12 and could not find bras for myself anywhere! Now I see A cup 10 year old girls wearing majorly padded bras they found in the kids section









I know that's totally not the issue here but it popped into my head. Back to lurking I go!


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I talked to my kid about puberty and sex, I certainly didn't wait till her friends were talking about it.

What did you do when it happened to you as a parent wonderwahine ?

where did i ever say anything about NOT teaching them? they are still going to talk to you (hopefully if they have a good realtionship with you that is) about their freinds, and those arnt exactly situations you can ask for advice from a mom of a 5 yr old. Or when your 9yr old has her period and developing breastbuds, moms of 7yr olds arnt going to have advice for you.

Parents of preteens and teens who have already been through that stage will.

I dont understand all this animosity towards parents of kids going through real issues coming in here and asking advice of moms who have BDTD. How are people ever going to learn and change their perspectives if people who have been through it already arnt willing to have them ask questions in "their area".

Plenty of moms who are pregnant come into the LWAB forum for advice, moms of babies come into the toddler forum, moms who arnt homeschooling yet ask for advice in the homeschooling forum, children progress at different paces and moms need help.

I find it rude for you to be discussing this topic, if you are so worried and annoyed at moms of 8/9/10yr olds coming in here, go find your own forum where you can control it with your own rules. I would much rather continue to make an atmoshpere where moms feel comfortable asking advice and comiseration if they need it.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Not sure where you are getting that, since that wasn't the purpose of the thread, if you read the OP. Someone else brought it up here.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Not sure where you are getting that, since that wasn't the purpose of the thread, if you read the OP. Someone else brought it up here.

and you agreed with it and carryed on the conversation, but should we just pretend that never happened?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I didn't say a thing about posting anywhere.

I talked about how IMO the issues of 8 year olds are different than preteens and teens. I think you need to reread exactly what I posted.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
I see this quite differently. Why _should_ a 2 or 3 year old (or even 5 year old) have to wear shorts under her skirt? The obsession with someone seeing their panties seems to me to be part of the early sexualization of children. What difference is there if a preschooler flashed her panties or flashes a pair of shorts? There is nothing sexual about the butt of a child that age. There is no curve to the hips, no rounded butt. There is no difference between a girl of that age in her undies and a boy.
I was in primary school in the early 70s, and I remember my school skirts being very short, with no shorts underneath.

I used to feel this way too, until I started taking preschoolers on outings on the city buses. It's not so much their panties they are displaying as what is underneath them- in the various immodest ways little girls sit and explore themselves while riding on public transport. I cannot tell you how many men would ogle their innocent displays.....All I could do was shut their legs and glare at the men. I personally don't think that's o.k. My own daughter wears shorts or bloomers under her dresses now, whearas before I may nnot have cared.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I didn't say a thing about posting anywhere.

I talked about how IMO the issues of 8 year olds are different than preteens and teens. I think you need to reread exactly what I posted.

which ties directly into the pp's vent about it.

And IMO they arn't that different, they are just the beginnings of those issues. Thankfully I am young enough to still remember what its like to be a preteen and teen, and the issues are not as clear cut and seperate as you would like to believe.


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## FondestBianca (May 9, 2008)

So we might as well just all say, "people who don't agree with me are bad parents." Right? NO! I'm just as guilty but, the back and forth, back and forth, no you're wrong because THIS or THAT or no, I'm right because THIS or THAT... Whats the point? It's not anyones job to convince anyone else. If someone walks up to you and says, "how dare you let your daughter show her bottom in public." or "how dare you limit your daughter by making her wear shorts under everything." you STILL don't need to explain, defend, and certianly not attack the other person and dare say they are the problem with society today.

Why do we (myself included) have such a need speak our case and convince others? Especially when we aren't just trying to convince how WE are RIGHT but, also to convince them publicly that THEY are WRONG. And above all else why would we go on to tell others they are practicing bad parenting (for honestly, very silly details) or are parenting 'wrong' or 'not as good'?

I applaud anyone who keeps a sense of humor and doesn't go deep into unproductive debate (debate is good, informative, and healthy but, when emotions get mixed in, it just become hurtful and pointless to all... because it creates nothing but, negitive)... I'll have to work on that


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

the post you are referring to about 8 year olds was in response to superstella and immediately following her post. I was addressing her comments about 8 year olds. And no where in her post was she venting about posts in this forum. Again you need to scroll up and re read.

And with that, I'm done discussing your false accusations.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm the mom of a 7.5 year old...and I have to agree with Arduinna...It completely squigs my dd out when kids start talking about pairing up in the 7-9 year old group she mostly hangs out with.

I haven't been able to figure out if it's because she doesn't know if she would pair up with a girl or a boy or if it's just pushing her somewhere she doesn't want to go.

Honestly, 7 years old seems really too young to come out to me, so it seems like it would be too young for the rest of this stuff.

Sex, drugs and rock and roll really don't have any business affecting people who are the age to become Brownies in my mind.

But then, I think we've forgotten how very little these kids are....I see it in threads talking about how 18 month olds should be able to stop when Mom says to, 3 year olds don't need to be supervised every minute, 8 year olds should be expected to get up and out to school on their own in the morning...

In my homeschooling circles, there's a big push to get kids to do more earlier.

What's the rush?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Serial posts, wait, Am I understanding right? An 8 year old is a "pre-teen?" I will never get these labels straight. I thought pre-teens were 11 and 12 year olds.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:

Honestly, 7 years old seems really too young to come out to me, so it seems like it would be too young for the rest of this stuff.
I never thought about it from that perspective, thanks for sharing that.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

More ponderings...if an 8 year old needs a bra, how is that not a Childhood Years issue...needing a bra does not make the 8 year old a teen or pre-teen.

I recently read that for girls 8 is not considered precocious puberty...so if it's developmentally normal, why not post it in Childhood Years?

The issues an 8 year old will encounter from entering puberty are not the same as an older child encountering the same changes.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
More ponderings...if an 8 year old needs a bra, how is that not a Childhood Years issue...needing a bra does not make the 8 year old a teen or pre-teen.

I recently read that for girls 8 is not considered precocious puberty...so if it's developmentally normal, why not post it in Childhood Years?

The issues an 8 year old will encounter from entering puberty are not the same as an older child encountering the same changes.


My child is a bit older, but the reason I lurk and sometimes post here is for the experience of the moms who contribute in this forum. I consider their time and what they have to say a real gift to me. Truly. I am not trying to be somewhere I shouldn't or intrude. I take a bit from the childhood years and a bit from here, and put it all together. I guess the labels are not as important to me as the generosity of spirit and wealth of information from this community.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't want to get get sidetracked by the energy and emotion surrounding clothing styles so I'll just say this:

I think Americans particularly push their kids into teenhood and then keep them there way too long. I'm noticing this more and more after moving back here but it's something I've observed years ago.

I talk to my daughter about it. I fight hard to give her freedom but also help her enjoy her age, which is 9. It's a more difficult struggle here in the States, I must say.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Quote:

I dont think anyone is pushing anything, kids are just dealing with things at an earlier age now, and thats just reality.
I respectfully disagree. I am only 12 years older than today's 10-year-olds, but nothing has changed that I can see. My boyfriend is 39, and he had almost the same experience as I did.

In 1990 and in 1974, kids were pairing off and had girlfriends and boyfriends in kindergarten and 1st grade. I had my first 'boyfriend' in kindergarten. We kissed and held hands.

DBF had his first sexual experience at age 11 (where the girl was the aggressor, and he was scared). His peers were experimenting with sex, drugs, drinking by 7th or 8th grade. Same as my generation. I didn't participate in any of it, but I remember what was going on.

There were trends, and beauty ideals, and inappropriate famous role models (lots of those in the late 70s/early 80s when DBF was a pree-teen) and revealing clothing fashions that appalled parents..

I really don't think all that much has changed with actual kids in the last 10, 20, 30 years. What has changed are our perceptions, and media attention. I don't think there are many more pedophiles now, for instance, then there were then. There's just a hysteria/hyper-awareness about them now, and more ways to catch them.


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## mommyinIL1976 (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm always in shock when my daughter tells me some of the stuff happens in the 6th grade these days. I still say it's in how you raise your kids. If you teach them to be confident in their bodies and that their body is theirs, you won't have the oversexualization to fight within them. It will always be out there in society regardless if it's adults or teens or children, but you can make a difference in your children.

It's about picking battles....You give an you take. DD (11) does not wear make-up...just lip gloss. We have recently allowed her to wear bikinis and she does shave her legs. But I've held firm with thong underwear. She begs for it and I know it's because her friends are wearing them, but I draw the line there. Not sure how much longer I'll be able to hold out there (I've lost my last ally there....DH doesn't care as long as it doesn't show out the top of her pants). Maybe when she's a teen, but not now darn it


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## boobybunny (Jun 28, 2005)

My daughter is an early bloomer at age nine. So maybe I am more sensitive than other parents about how she dresses and what she looks like. All that being said, I about blew my cool last Friday at a school function.

My daughter and her entire 3rd grade class was wearing HOT PINK SKIN TIGHT STRETCH pants, and snug white t shirts, pink cowboy hats and white cowboy boots. We were told to put make up on them, with bright pink lipstick. She wears a size 12, her pants were a size 8.

My daughter did not look nine... she looked 13. She is tall, almost 5 foot and weighs only 75lbs. We together have worked very hard at dressing her in ways that hides what is going on with her body.... mostly because she is a small B cup, and getting her mama's wonderful baby hips.









We talk about the wonderful stuff that is going on with her body... and how she is not ready... she wants to still be a little girl.
It kills me that there are mothers who are encouraging, and forcing (my daughter was forced) into wearing outfits that are not appropriate for anyone under the age of 18.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FondestBianca* 
for me I think it's a safegaurd. Something we have to think about now with society being so different. I've been able to hear gradeschool age playground conversation when they didn't think I was paying attention. I think little girls shouldn't have to pay attention to the skirts but, when little boys are doing naughty things and teaseing (not your oldschool "I see Paris, I see France") in a very sexually aggressive way and older boys are paying WAY too much attention

This is nothing new. I can tell you from personal experience. I was harassed in primary school by older boys. That was about 30 years ago. I'm sure I wasn't the first girl in history that had happened to.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Honestly, 7 years old seems really too young to come out to me, so it seems like it would be too young for the rest of this stuff.

Why? My 4yo started talking about pretty girls when he was 3. He saw girls. He liked girls. He thought they were pretty. He doesn't talk about boys the same way. That's perfectly natural. He's not sexually active nor does he know anything about that. If we believe (as I do) that we are born however we are, then homosexuality could come up for a homosexual child as young as 3 just not in the adult way we think of sexuality. Maybe it's a good thing that children that young are starting to feel comfortable about being open about those feelings rather than feeling like they have to hide who they are.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Quote:

Why? My 4yo started talking about pretty girls when he was 3. He saw girls. He liked girls. He thought they were pretty. He doesn't talk about boys the same way. That's perfectly natural. He's not sexually active nor does he know anything about that. If we believe (as I do) that we are born however we are, then homosexuality could come up for a homosexual child as young as 3 just not in the adult way we think of sexuality. Maybe it's a good thing that children that young are starting to feel comfortable about being open about those feelings rather than feeling like they have to hide who they are.
Yeah, around 3 or 4 kids become pretty sexual.. though they may not be sexually _active_ in any way for a long time yet, they definately have those feelings and attractions.

Kids aren't really 'innocent' in the way a lot of parents think they are.. ie completely pure and non-sexual.

I know I had a lot of sexual feelings/fantasies as a very young child, played sexual games with my friends, and started masturbating while I was still very much a kid (8 or 9 years old). And I didn't go through puberty until I was 14.

Quote:

This is nothing new. I can tell you from personal experience. I was harassed in primary school by older boys. That was about 30 years ago. I'm sure I wasn't the first girl in history that had happened to.
Amen to that. Unfortunately sexual harassment is as old as the species. If anything I think it's a lot better these days. While it still goes on, once it's discovered there is a zero tolerance policy in schools. 30 years ago or more, before feminism really took hold, I can hardly imagine how bad it was.. try reading a romance novel from 1978, there's really been a sea change in what is acceptable behavior from a man towards a woman.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

under skirts my dd wears short/boxers in place of panties. she wears them with pants also. i like the bra tank tops for when they are wearing a top or dress that is loose fitting and shows their breasts. i dont think i am forcing her to grow up. it is knowing the line between forced growing up and covering knowing there are sick people out in the world now that was not so known when we grew up. and yes i think it is 100% wrong to have a girl wearing padded bra's and thongs.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

This is probably getting OT but I finally figured out what is bothering me about the idea that little girls need to wear bloomers or shorts or something over their underwear under a skirt. Why are we putting the responsibility for perversion on these little girls as if wearing shorts under a skirt would really stop a perverts from thinking whatever they think when they see young children? It makes me think of the idea that a woman (or girl) who gets raped asked for it because she was out too late or her skirt was too short or her pants were too tight. So, if a little girl does not have shorts on under her skirt and she pulls her skirt up innocently or hangs upside down on the monkey bars at the park and some pervert gets off on that, it's her fault? No way! Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the perverts. Of course, that does not mean that I think we should put our children on display. It just means we shouldn't make our little girls feel like they are somehow responsible for that sort of thing.

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a little girl wearing a thong. I don't wear thongs because they are sexy or even because I'm worried about panty lines. I wear them because I find them more comfortable than regular underwear. The push up bra is another thing. It depends on why someone wants to wear something like that. If a girl wants a push up bra because she feels inadequate, I'd want to talk to her about her feelings about herself and her appearance/body image.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I dont see any bloomers. And even if there were matching panties...what's the difference in the color of the undies? It's still short. lol You can see through the first dress layer, under which is an ever shorter layer.

I agree that clothing is not the issue, at any rate.

The photo you posted was of Shirley Temple. yes she had bloomers, I am a die hard shirley temple fan and she always wore very short babydoll dresses with matching bloomers underneath.

Anyone who thinks she looks oversexed is a bit of a perv (general Anyone not saying anyone here does)


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## dawningmama (Jan 14, 2003)

My kids go to pre-teen night at the YMCA and that starts at age 8. We have preteen days with the homeschool group and the min. age for that is 10. I think the numbers are kind of random. I do consider my 8 year old and certainly my 10 year old (who is very into romance and puberty and alla that) at a completely different life stage than my 6 year old. For me, that's what "preteen" is about.

I don't really have an issue with calling 8 year olds pre-teens. I don't see it all that differently from when I was growing up. I don't recall use of the word pre-teen but I did feel like menarche was my entrance into adolescence and that happened at age 9 for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhubarbarin* 

I really don't think all that much has changed with actual kids in the last 10, 20, 30 years. What has changed are our perceptions, and media attention. I don't think there are many more pedophiles now, for instance, then there were then. There's just a hysteria/hyper-awareness about them now, and more ways to catch them.

Yeah, that.

I was doing a bunch more in 5th grade than my son is doing now because I had a LOT more unattended time. Hours alone with my friends every day without an adult in sight. My kids get hardly any of that. Sometimes I wonder if that is doing them a disservice.


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## MrsCorell (Aug 16, 2006)

My son will be 13 in a few weeks. I get surprised looks from people when I tell them he isn't interested in girls yet. I don't understand the shock. 13, imo, seems awfully young to be dating at any rate.

My nieces are both 10 years old and there seems to be trouble finding them clothes that aren't fashioned from Bratz or Hannah Montana. Neither of which are favorable by my sisters. My daughter is almost 2, so I have yet to have issues of that sort yet, but I do find that the older she gets, the more her clothes are looking to be 'trendy' like halter tops or strapless tops. Why would a 2 year old need a halter top? I've started making her clothes to sidestep the issue.

Back to the OP, I do think that our society is decreasing the age in which kids are to act like grown ups and, frankly, that saddens me. We only have one chance to be children and I think they should enjoy it~as children.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawningmama* 
My kids go to pre-teen night at the YMCA and that starts at age 8. We have preteen days with the homeschool group and the min. age for that is 10. I think the numbers are kind of random. I do consider my 8 year old and certainly my 10 year old (who is very into romance and puberty and alla that) at a completely different life stage than my 6 year old. For me, that's what "preteen" is about.

I don't really have an issue with calling 8 year olds pre-teens. I don't see it all that differently from when I was growing up. I don't recall use of the word pre-teen but I did feel like menarche was my entrance into adolescence and that happened at age 9 for me.

Yeah, that.

I was doing a bunch more in 5th grade than my son is doing now because I had a LOT more unattended time. Hours alone with my friends every day without an adult in sight. My kids get hardly any of that. Sometimes I wonder if that is doing them a disservice.

I also had a lot more unattended time as a child and teen and I do feel I'm doing my children a diservice by giving them less freedom. Others think I'm practically negligent though....I think "benign negligence" can be a great parenting philosophy for some (but not all) children. I also think that children CAN be much more sexual creatures than we would expect and I don't think that should either encouraged or discouraged.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

I just had to post that I really believe childhood is only an extension of family and (this gets complicated for me) children should be considered full members with rights and responsibilities in a family. Now I am just working this out but I think ( but don't know..) that if our munchkins are spending more time working at home on projects, chores or academics, there is less time to consider shopping, makeup and men.
I really really do not want to come off as self-righteous- and I am sensitve to the mamas who have punked out little girls as expression of indivuality- I understand this. I don't know. I have to wear cut off leggings under my skirts because it is neccesary for me to atually work at any moment. Even if that work is crawling on the flooor to be a dinosaur. I just see no reason to promote- or maybe even permit- girlhood to be an exercise in being an object of observation as opposed to an active participant. So for me a lot of the "gear" that goes with pre-teenness seems absurd in its lack of utility. Shoes, bras, pants etc etc should provide full motion and ability. Sure I guess if it is 1 hour of stupid shoes and a too short skirt then go for it girl, but I find that these kids then cannot do what I honestly expect from a strong young member of my "tribe" I am not concerned (as much) about what they do do as what they don't do. Or even more disturbing, can't do. If we want our kids to grow up fast ( and I love the concept of more global awareness etc etc) then they potentially be required to accept more responsibility for real life issues. What I see happening is kids hammered by homework, very little actual free time, few household responsibilities and a lot of stress. How can I fix this?????
BTW- the question is somewhat rhetorical.....but I would love to hear from y'all about what you think. Anybody I have offended I apologize in advance.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamahart* 
I just had to post that I really believe childhood is only an extension of family and (this gets complicated for me) children should be considered full members with rights and responsibilities in a family.

If this is true, then you must let them make all their own choices the way that adults do. Imposing home projects, chores and academics is not giving them full member rights. That is still a top-down framework. Does your husband impose those things on you or do you impose them on him? Both of you may want or even expect the other to do things but the other adult always has the option of not doing anything at anytime and doing something else instead.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamahart* 
I just see no reason to promote- or maybe even permit- girlhood to be an exercise in being an object of observation as opposed to an active participant. So for me a lot of the "gear" that goes with pre-teenness seems absurd in its lack of utility. Shoes, bras, pants etc etc should provide full motion and ability. Sure I guess if it is 1 hour of stupid shoes and a too short skirt then go for it girl, but I find that these kids then cannot do what I honestly expect from a strong young member of my "tribe" I am not concerned (as much) about what they do do as what they don't do. Or even more disturbing, can't do.

This is your opinion based on what you want or thing or need. If your children truly have all the same rights as adults in your family or tribe, then they should be able to decide for themselves what they can and cannot do at any given time regardless of what they are wearing. Seems to me that you are deciding what they can and cannot or should and should not do. That's not giving the same rights as you have. That's not really allowing them to be active participants.


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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
More ponderings...if an 8 year old needs a bra, how is that not a Childhood Years issue...needing a bra does not make the 8 year old a teen or pre-teen.

I recently read that for girls 8 is not considered precocious puberty...so if it's developmentally normal, why not post it in Childhood Years?

The issues an 8 year old will encounter from entering puberty are not the same as an older child encountering the same changes.

Thank you for voicing this! I am having so much trouble finding other moms whose 8 year olds are entering puberty, and have found previous little for myself or my 8 yr old to read that is not directed at children who are entering this stage at 11 or 12! I have been visiting preteen forums on another board when I have questions, but mostly we need to be in the childhood area. My largest concern right now is that while Im only seeing the outward effects of hormones on her body and attitude... I am assuming that just as her body has begun puberty early, she will grow into "being attracted" to others early. ANd I dont have any idea what to think about that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boobybunny* 
My daughter is an early bloomer at age nine. So maybe I am more sensitive than other parents about how she dresses and what she looks like. All that being said, I about blew my cool last Friday at a school function.

My daughter and her entire 3rd grade class was wearing HOT PINK SKIN TIGHT STRETCH pants, and snug white t shirts, pink cowboy hats and white cowboy boots. We were told to put make up on them, with bright pink lipstick. She wears a size 12, her pants were a size 8.

My daughter did not look nine... she looked 13. She is tall, almost 5 foot and weighs only 75lbs. We together have worked very hard at dressing her in ways that hides what is going on with her body.... mostly because she is a small B cup, and getting her mama's wonderful baby hips.









We talk about the wonderful stuff that is going on with her body... and how she is not ready... she wants to still be a little girl.
It kills me that there are mothers who are encouraging, and forcing (my daughter was forced) into wearing outfits that are not appropriate for anyone under the age of 18.

I would be angry too, and I can just see this happening to us!! Grace doesnt want this to be happening to her, and I cant do anything to slow it down. I told her that when others catch up, she will be a pro about it and be able to be such a good helper and friend to them because of her experience. She didnt care, of course, but that is one benefit.

Like my sig says, I have created a tribe for moms of early bloomers, hoping to find others dealing with the things we are dealing with. Just in case youre a mom of a youn pre teen like mine. Grace is a child, she is an 8 yr old. But I think we are in the preteen stage with my particular 8 yr old with raging hormones.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boobybunny*
I about blew my cool last Friday at a school function.

My daughter and her entire 3rd grade class was wearing HOT PINK SKIN TIGHT STRETCH pants, and snug white t shirts, pink cowboy hats and white cowboy boots. We were told to put make up on them, with bright pink lipstick. She wears a size 12, her pants were a size 8.

My daughter did not look nine... she looked 13.

Was this for a performance of some sort? If that's the case, that's pretty normal. When my 3yo son was taking dance classes he was expected to wear makeup for their recital. Many of us parents opted not to put makeup on our kids. (My son wasn't even in the actual recital but that's another story.) If you were that upset, couldn't you refuse to put makeup on her? Couldn't you have gotten her the correct size pants? If not, couldn't you have opted out of whatever it was if your dd was uncomfortable with it?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boobybunny*
She is tall, almost 5 foot and weighs only 75lbs. We together have worked very hard at dressing her in ways that hides what is going on with her body.... mostly because she is a small B cup, and getting her mama's wonderful baby hips.

Why do you feel the need to hide this? No matter how much you talk about the "wonderful" things going on with her body, working to hide them sends an entirely different message, and not one I would want my child getting. Seems to me that sort of thing would just perpetuate the idea that, first, it's not normal for girls to enter puberty at that age, and second, it's something to be ashamed of.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

Mostly in response to MarineWife- I guess the part I didn't emphasize in my post was the responsibility part. I do believe it is my job to educate and protect my kids but I am not naturally very authoritarian. So although I probably wouldn't prohibit my daughter from wearing ridiculous clothing I would definitely let her know that it would not be possible to make her contribution to the family in non-utilitarian clothing. I really don't want to argue about the top-down adult to child paradigm because I think it is actually really complicated.
Sure I CAN do whatever I want but then there are consequences that I don't like- same with the partnership I have with my husband. We do things we don't neccessarily WANT to do all the time, why is it not the same with children? I attempt to think of my kids as equal members with full rights but also with full responsibility, and because I have the responsibility to educate them I give them chore lists. Because they have responsibilities, to the animals/garden/themselves- they feed, water and study.
I also have to admit that my peculiar living situation makes this neccessary and I think easier. If I lived in an urban area I would have a different outlook and lifestyle I am sure. So I am not really advocating my views for anyone besides myself, KWIM?


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