# Ok I have to draw the line here..this sounds like downright child abuse!



## MotherEden (Dec 18, 2004)

So I have a very diverse group of mommy friends. I try not to judge and I try to be accepting of different parenting styles. Some cio, ff, spank etc while others clw, cosleep, gd etc. I try to be friends with the ones who do things I dislike parenting wise and just not talk about that stuff and concentrate on what we do have in common, but I have to draw the line here:

One of the moms (she has a 6 month old and a 4 year old) just posted in our yahoo group that her 6 month old hasnt been sleeping as well so she set up a bed for him in a room in the house they dont use so she could close the door and let him scream his lungs out and not wake up her or anyone else in the house. As if I wasnt traumatized by this enough she thought it was a funny situation and was also considering putting ear plugs in as well. She called it "tough love"

There really isnt anything I can say to her and we're not supposed to debate in the group but this really really irks me.


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## Baby Makes 4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Doesn't it make you wonder how some people can shut down their parenting instincts to that point?

It makes me nauseous when I hear about some of the things people do to their babies in the name of parenting.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

That makes me sad. Instead of pointing out fault, maybe list some alternatives to her method, and point out that doing something like that "can" be stressful on the baby. Cushion your words, but make your point.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

That is so heartbreaking!! Why is it so hard for people to understand that babies need their mamas? I know so many adults who say they can't fall asleep without their spouse next to them. And babies' needs for that close contact is so much greater. That just breaks my heart. It is also very scary when parent's desensitize themselves to their baby's cries.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

We'd gotten some baby books as gifts, which we never really looked at. One ended up being a Sears book I just recently realized. I'd been wondering all along what everyone was talking about, never realizing that an unopened copy was on the shelf right behind me







.

Anyway, I was looking through them recently just to see what the various positions were on different things.

Under 'sleeping problems', one of the books advised putting your child to bed, shutting the door, and not opening it until morning no matter what, unless "blood rolls out from under the door". It was said tongue-in-cheek, of course, but to me that's not very much different than listening to screams roll out from under the door.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
We'd gotten some baby books as gifts, which we never really looked at. One ended up being a Sears book I just recently realized. I'd been wondering all along what everyone was talking about, never realizing that an unopened copy was on the shelf right behind me







.

Anyway, I was looking through them recently just to see what the various positions were on different things.

Under 'sleeping problems', one of the books advised putting your child to bed, shutting the door, and not opening it until morning no matter what, unless "blood rolls out from under the door". It was said tongue-in-cheek, of course, but to me that's not very much different than listening to screams roll out from under the door.

Dr. Sears says to shut the door, unless blood rolls out from under the door? Or it was a different book?


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Quote:

Dr. Sears says to shut the door, unless blood rolls out from under the door? Or it was a different book?
That's not in the Sear's book...









Sounds like an extreme "ferberizer" sort of book.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

No, no! Sorry! That was a different book.


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## eirual (Mar 21, 2006)

This is so sad- i was speaking to a mom with much the same idea. How does your baby being sad NOT make you sad??- I'm a wreck if DS is crying abd I can't help him- (only in the car and we have to wait 'til it's safe to pull over).

I simply said, that I can't do that, I keep DS in bed with me and it works great- both he and I are happy and sleep MUCH better.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
No, no! Sorry! That was a different book.









thought so! lol thought maybe i had missed that part


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

I just can't wrap my head around how someone could listen to their child cry and cry and cry like that. And at 6 months old?!?!? It's a BABY for pete's sake!! I'm sorry, that's not "sleep training", that's straight up neglect.


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## frowningfrog (Aug 25, 2005)

This is the one thing that some parents do that I will never be able to understand..
What is so wrong with picking up a crying child and comforting them. Are people these days really that emotionally unattached.
My Sil was putting my nephew in his crib and after about 5 minutes she nearly broke down in tears as she realized what she was doing. As far as I know she hasnt done it again....

Are you the group owner?....If not perhaps you could have a private talk with the group owner about how disturbing this is what this mother is doing and to ask her to not poke fun at a situation in which a child is being seriously neglected.
If you are the group owner ..I wouldnt hesitiate to break the no debate rule and tell her just what I thought of her abusive behaviour..


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## rachelmarie (Mar 21, 2005)

I'm pretty sure I would tell this woman what I thought about her neglecting her baby. What she is doing is a form of abuse. I *could not* be friends with a person who does that to their child, and that is why I wouldn't hesitate to tell her what I thought about her "parenting" - even if it would make her mad. But that's me...


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## julie anne (Mar 28, 2006)

This is neglect and I would give her some AP books to read or some internet articles showing how detrimental this is on not only her sweet little 6 mo old, but her dear little 4 yo who is watching this. If she found it "funny" enough to tell others about, it makes me wonder in deep concern if there are other "parenting methods" that she's using on the dc that she doesn't speak of. My heart just hurts.


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

That is horrid. Some people do have that kind of black humour, where they make things funny when they aren't, though. I remember there was a time when sometimes I would put my son down crying for a minute or two, in the other room, just so I could have a break for a sec, then of course go back to hugging him, walking with him, singing with him etc. (he would cry for hours). I just needed a second to recoup.
I feel for her, but that is not a good solution. Does the child have colic or something? That can drive parents nuts.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *judesmama*
I'm pretty sure I would tell this woman what I thought about her neglecting her baby. What she is doing is a form of abuse. I *could not* be friends with a person who does that to their child, and that is why I wouldn't hesitate to tell her what I thought about her "parenting" - even if it would make her mad. But that's me...









I agree - at 6 mths old - that is just plain neglect. If it was a 2 year old - it wolud still suck & I probably would have a very hard time being friends w/ someone who parented that way, but it's more of a difference of parenting styles. but 6 months old!!!







if it was someone local, I would probably talk to someone I knew at DCF for suggestions on how to help that family.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

That is horrifying. How can a mama be so cold hearted to her own child??


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## 4Marmalade (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dynamohumm6*
I just can't wrap my head around how someone could listen to their child cry and cry and cry like that. And at 6 months old?!?!? It's a BABY for pete's sake!! I'm sorry, that's not "sleep training", that's straight up neglect.

That's the thing. She's not even LISTENING to her baby cry. She's trying to put the baby someplace where she won't be able to hear. Sadly, I know a number of people who use the CIO approach. More than one mom has had to leave the house while their dh checked on the baby because it was too painful to hear the cries







. Other mom's have said it was the hardest thing they ever had to do and it felt horrible. Well, duh...if it felt so wrong, why did you do it?


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama to one*
That's the thing. She's not even LISTENING to her baby cry. She's trying to put the baby someplace where she won't be able to hear. Sadly, I know a number of people who use the CIO approach. More than one mom has had to leave the house while their dh checked on the baby because it was too painful to hear the cries







. Other mom's have said it was the hardest thing they ever had to do and it felt horrible. Well, duh...if it felt so wrong, why did you do it?

Does she not want to hear him cry because it breaks her heart, or because the noise annoys her?

Whenever I've heard people talk about earplugs, it's so the noise won't "bother them", not because it upsets them.


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## Khadijah (Jul 19, 2005)

Thats just cruel and for her to post that and laugh about it. She has some serious issues. Thats is just aweful.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I actually disagree about the laughter showing how horrific this makes this mom. Haven't we all had a time when we had to either laugh or scream? (Or cry, or otherwise break down?) For whatever screwed-up reason, this mom thinks that this is something she "has" to do, for the sake of her baby (oy!), her family, her sanity, whatever... She's wrong, obviously, and as a result she's torturing her child, but I don't fault her for attempting to find the humor in it - that's a very common coping mechanism.


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## rose_bud79 (Jul 21, 2005)

That is so sad it breaks my heart!


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Before i had my babe, I honestly thought babies cried all the time and that I would get earplugs to cope with it. I had no idea! I joked about getting ear plugs when I told people that I was pregnant....


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

"Tough love" and a 6-mo-old?!?! Wow.


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## ollineeba (Apr 12, 2005)

That is so heartbreaking.. I hope for that poor little baby's sake that she didn't actually follow through and do that









What did the other mothers say to her in response?


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## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2babybeans*
What did the other mothers say to her in response?

I was wondering that too. I don't think even Ferber would suggest such an approach with a baby that young!!! At least he tells people to go in and check. (not that that's OK either...)


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

I generally feel nausated when I hear any CIO it story. I can handle many other differences in parenting styles, but CIO is something I just can't grasp. Some people actually let weeks old babies CIO.


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, only a quick sec to post...I'll read the pp's replies in a bit...










OMG My heart just breaks for this poor baby.









I don't understand how parents who parent like that, just don't get it? How can they NOT think they aren't doing damage to their children emotionally? How can they sleep at night? It just makes me so mad that parents would intentionally do that to their child and I know first hand after my experience with DS how it can completely and totally destroy a poor little baby's sense of security, safety, bonding and attachment. I always maintain, that any good parent wouldn't shove their child in a room and let them cry for hours on end at 2pm in the afternoon, why, why, why do some parents think it is different at 2 in the morning for example? Why do some parents think their job as a parent is over when it is the kids bedtime? How can anyone even suspect their child is screaming and crying somewhere and not be the slightest bit inclined to want to go and comfort them and be there for them?

Feel free to copy and paste my post below in this forum about my story with my MIL letting my son CIO only 1.5 hours twice a week for about 4-5 weeks and how much it damaged him emotionally and how long it took me to reverse that damage. I can't imagine what it would be like for a child to scream all night long and what that would do to them.







That is just one of the reasons I wrote that all out, was hopefully to help someone out there realize the damage they are doing with CIO.

Keep us posted, I'm in tears just thinking about this poor baby, this is going to eat me up inside, I'm curious to see what happens.


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

If this is already been mentioned, my apologies, my DH is getting the kids ready for bed, so I haven't had a chance to read the pp's...

But why not just quietly post this link in your Yahoo Group? Don't get into a debate or anything if that isn't allowed, but just the link. I think the story speaks for itself, and the fact that it is a Harvard study seems to get through to a lot of mainstream parents...

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Without commenting on parenting techniques, can you say, "Aren't you worried he'll choke or something, and you won't hear him?"


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

I knew a woman who put her dd in the basement, two floors away to CIO.







Needless to say, we no longer have any contact.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
I knew a woman who put her dd in the basement, two floors away to CIO.







Needless to say, we no longer have any contact.

OMG. Ya know, if this is how one must "parent", why HAVE kids??


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Without commenting on parenting techniques, can you say, "Aren't you worried he'll choke or something, and you won't hear him?"

This was my thought too. Even one did support CIO, wouldn't it be important to be listening? I've heard plenty of stories about babies crying until they vomit. This situation sounds very dangerous to me. Poor baby


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
Without commenting on parenting techniques, can you say, "Aren't you worried he'll choke or something, and you won't hear him?"

That's a good idea.


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## Justhere (Apr 3, 2006)

why dont you offer a link to this thread in that discussion. or in a pm and then she can read it!


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## JoyofBirth (Mar 16, 2004)

I was recently talking to a friend that I know does some mainstream stuff. She was saying that with the baby she is pregnant with she will wait a little longer to CIO, like maybe 5 or 6 months. With her firsrt ds, she let him CIO at less than 3 months. She told me how great it was though that now she can put him down and he just goes to sleep. She then told me the first night was the worst because he cried for over 3 hours before *she* was finally able to fall asleep. Emma cries for a few minutes and I'm ready to join her. I couldn't possibly listen to it for hours and at just a few months old. They still have that new baby cry. I try to not judge people but this is terrible. I did tell her the things I've read about stress and stress hormones in babies that CIO and how it has negative health effects. She asked me why then do they stop after a couple nights. I just told her I guess it's just so uncomfortable for them to cry so hard and so long and they learn it doesn't do any good, that nobody cares, so they just give up. Kinda breaks their little spirits. Maybe she will reconsider the next time around. Probably not, but you never know. I sometimes envy what she has now-putting her baby down and he just goes to sleep, but I also see a dettachment in him. I don't think it's something I could know about and not at least put in my 2 cents about. You may just tell her about something you've read about the damage of CIO, link her some articles online. I wouldn't straight up say anything about it being abuse (although I don't disagree with you on that point). I'd just give her information on the damage it can cause. And maybe recommend some solutions, like reading NCSS or a similar book.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I tried CIO with my eldest, out of desperation: he was 8 months old, and refusing to sleep for more than 6 hours in any 24 hour period (generally much less), and we sat with him, refusing to let him out of his cot, hoping and praying that he'd turn into a normal child who slept. Sometimes people make really, really bad judgement calls under pressure: I'm not going to blame a parent for trying it, though I blame the health professional who suggested it to me.
The other thing that nobody tells you about CIO is that it doesn't work. We had 5 bad nights (can't tell you how long now, but it was heartwrenching), and then one night when he went to sleep, and then he learnt to climb out of a cot. That was the point where we put the mattress on the floor and started sleeping in a childproofed cell with the doors locked: when he got tired, he came and crawled into bed with us at 2am, and then woke us up at 5.30 to tell us that the dun was up.
Laughably enough, I now have a child who will just go to sleep when she's tired with absolutely no fuss whatsoever. Hah.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wombatclay*
That's not in the Sear's book...









Sounds like an extreme "ferberizer" sort of book.

I don't mean to defend Ferber here but I do think we should be accurate about authors of ideas that we don't agree with. Ferber has never written that you should just shut the door and leave your baby to cry. Ferber wrote that you should let the baby cry for a few minutes, go into his room and tell him you are there, pat him on the back but do not pick him up, leave the room after a few minutes, come back after a longer period of time, do the same thing, leave, repeat. Note that Ferber also says that you should not try this method before the baby is six months old.

Ferber does not recommend just shutting the door and letting the baby cry.

Again, I am NOT defending the Ferber method but I do think it is important to be accurate when labelling. NOT EVEN FERBER would recommend what the parents described in the original post did. That is AWFUL.


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## frowningfrog (Aug 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
I knew a woman who put her dd in the basement, two floors away to CIO.







Needless to say, we no longer have any contact.









...........


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## muppet729 (Feb 15, 2005)

When I was pregnant, I was in a wedding and the woman I was sitting next to was telling me about how she got her kid to sleep through the night. She said that she shut him in his room, went out onto the patio and drank a beer. Then seh went and checked on him.







I had already been introduced to AP so I was appalled at the thought, but it just makes me really sad. To top it off, she was breastfeeding so I wonder how many beers it took...


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## Lazyhead (Mar 27, 2006)

[QUOTE/] Under 'sleeping problems', one of the books advised putting your child to bed, shutting the door, and not opening it until morning no matter what, unless "blood rolls out from under the door". It was said tongue-in-cheek, of course, but to me that's not very much different than listening to screams roll out from under the door.[/QUOTE]

this sounds suspicously like marc weisbluth and his (ironically titled) book "healthy sleep habits, happy child".


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## choose2bgr8 (Nov 13, 2005)

That is so sad. Everyone told me that was the way to do it with my oldest and so I did at first







but that just felt wrong. I am so glad that I learned quickly NOT to do that.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp*
I don't mean to defend Ferber here but I do think we should be accurate about authors of ideas that we don't agree with.


No worries! However, to clarify, I wasn't attributing the original text to Ferber (the person, who has actually spoken out against some of the more extreme versions of CIO and who mentions co-sleeping as an option in his new book, and who is not personally fond of the term "ferberize").

I was using "ferberize" (lower case, with quotation marks) in it's current incarnation as a verb (sadly, soon to be included in the oxford dictionary of modern slang) meaning to teach a child to sleep using a variety of techniques, including gradually prolonged periods of crying on the part of the child. While the original text doesn't sound very "gradual" to me, I'm sure the book it came from would fall under this general definition.

Thanks for the reminder to speak (or at least type) clearly!


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

It really makes me wonder if the people who do this sort of thing don't have sociopathic tendencies. You would have to have absolutely NO compassion for other human beings to desensitize yourself THAT much.

It just makes me sick that some people think babies aren't human or don't have feelings.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JenniferH*
It really makes me wonder if the people who do this sort of thing don't have sociopathic tendencies. You would have to have absolutely NO compassion for other human beings to desensitize yourself THAT much.

I really don't think that's true. That's what is even more sad/horrifying about things like CIO - it doesn't take a monster to do it. It takes a normal, loving, caring, wants to do what's best mother _who doesn't know any better_, or who believes that since "everyone else" does it, it must be right. That's all. Not a psychopath, not an unfeeling monster, just. a. mother. Someone who has been trained to believe by her society that babies' cries don't mean anything, that sleeping with her children would kill them, that not training her babies to sleep would damage them, that they can't be harmed by crying, and that she's wrong to want to love them and hold them and keep them close.

It's sad. It's horribly, horribly sad and frightening and disgusting - but I think it's really important to remember that circ'ers, CIO'ers, and the majority of Nazis are/were _just ordinary people_ who are/were, for lack of a better term, brainwashed by their society into doing and believing horrific things.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Blech. Stories like that (OP) make my skin crawl. Poor baby.


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

I just wanted to agree with Arwyn's above statement to the millionth degree. I did a lot of things with my first child that I would never dream of doing in a million years now with my second. I didn't use a "method" to get my son to sleep, but I was told over and over again how babies cry, its just what they do, and its good for them, and it doesn't mean anything. If they aren't hungry or dirty and they're crying its not a huge deal. Its wrong, very very very wrong, but that is what many women are told by everyone they trust and believe in (parents, doctors, etc). So many things were wrong with my relationship with my son right from the start because I believed people around me instead of myself, but when you're young and uncertain about your parenting abilities as many first time parents are, you don't always know to listen to yourself.

Knowing what I know now, about CIO and natural childbirth/cesareans and food and school systems and government and religion and... its scary. So many things go on that people around me feel are normal that just horrify me terribly. If I thought about it too much I'd never sleep again.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

I have already come and admitted a long time ago on here, that I let my oldest CIO. I was not a monster. Years later I sure did feel like one when I realized what I did. I felt guilt. Oh yes you can believe I did! But I was told it was the right thing. And I get guilt today because I DON'T let my other children CIO. All I want to do is be a good mother. So I try what I can to accomplish that.

I will no longer CIO. I stopped that nearly 7 years ago. Just because everyone around me did it, and told me it as right. I didn't know any better! I was only 19 and trying to do my best. And yes, guess what? I did use earplugs at the suggestion of my doctor. My poor baby cried herself to sleep.

But please don't lump people into cold unfeeling, heartless monsters just because they CIO. Its rarely the case! Most are just moms who might not know a different way.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

I'm glad you listened to your instincts.


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## mama23boys (Mar 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eirual*
This is so sad- i was speaking to a mom with much the same idea. How does your baby being sad NOT make you sad??- I'm a wreck if DS is crying abd I can't help him- (only in the car and we have to wait 'til it's safe to pull over).

I simply said, that I can't do that, I keep DS in bed with me and it works great- both he and I are happy and sleep MUCH better.









im known for taking forever to run quick errands bc i cant take ds crying.....


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arwyn*
I really don't think that's true. That's what is even more sad/horrifying about things like CIO - it doesn't take a monster to do it. It takes a normal, loving, caring, wants to do what's best mother _who doesn't know any better_, or who believes that since "everyone else" does it, it must be right. That's all. Not a psychopath, not an unfeeling monster, just. a. mother. Someone who has been trained to believe by her society that babies' cries don't mean anything, that sleeping with her children would kill them, that not training her babies to sleep would damage them, that they can't be harmed by crying, and that she's wrong to want to love them and hold them and keep them close.

It's sad. It's horribly, horribly sad and frightening and disgusting - but I think it's really important to remember that circ'ers, CIO'ers, and the majority of Nazis are/were _just ordinary people_ who are/were, for lack of a better term, brainwashed by their society into doing and believing horrific things.









:


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## sadhitia (Jul 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SMUM*
That is horrid. Some people do have that kind of black humour, where they make things funny when they aren't, though.

Why's it have to be Black Humor?


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadhitia*
Why's it have to be Black Humor?

Well, this doesn't really get into the etymology, but it might be enlightening nonetheless: http://www.bartleby.com/65/bl/blackhum.html


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