# DH problem with anger or me -- overreacting?



## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

My dh and I have been having problems seeing eye to eye since my first child was born 7 + years ago. We have been seeing a marriage counselor who thinks that he needs to address the roots of his anger and get rid of it. He is mostly in denial. He has about a 10 minute frustration-with-kids threshold then uses threats, raising his voice, physically restraining or moving the children (7 and 4), controlling through being angry or manipulating by withdrawing his love/affection. This is his daily MO.

Last night my son and daughter were trying to wrestle with him before bed. My daughter encouraging my son to climb on Dad's head. I heard my DH losing his patience after about 2 minutes as I brushed my teeth. Next I know my daughter is yelling and crying because DH (180 lbs) sat on her (40 lbs), covered her nose and mouth with his hand to make her stop calling her brother. When she panicked (she said, started getting scared), he took his hand off and put a pillow on her face, she said she turned to get a breath of air and he mashed the pillow over the opening.

I walked in then, she was up and ran to me telling me what happened. I tried to keep things light and say, "You can see she didn't like that and that scared her, right Dad?" He said, "I can see that SHE wants YOU to think that."

We went into the bathroom, DH started to read a book to my son. While my DD was telling me what happened, DH started reading the book in a really loud voice to drown her out (?). We went back into the room, and I said, I think Emma would like it if you said you were sorry for scaring her. He just ignored me. Then, my DD tried to get his affection and listen to the book he was reading and he kept pushing her away. I asked why he was so angry and he said he wasn't.

This physical stuff is usually mild although counter to my parenting philosophy---picking up a child and moving them or physically restraining them when they aren't doing what you want them to do.

He once threw and broke a toy shopping cart. But, he usually holds it together and just fumes. We know he's mad but he doesn't do anything but withdraw, have a sour face, and be cold. I am growing impervious, because I don't seek his approval anymore, but I don't know how to help my kids.

The best I have been able to come up with is to stay married so that I can be a mediator as much as I can. Shared custody would necessitate that they be alone for greater periods of time than they are now. This is obviously not an ideal solution and I feel like I am showing my kids that this is acceptable behavior...

I am a completely peaceful, Ghandi-loving, vegan-leaning, Buddhism-exploring person. Am I being too sensitive as is suggested by DH?

P.S. No one else on Earth would believe this. He's funny, charming, friendly and playful with other people and kids. And, half the time with my kids.

Please send me your thoughts.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Does his anger stem mostly from parenting frustrations? It sounds like he may be parenting in a way he isn't comfortable with and resenting you for interfering but trying to hold a lot of anger in and it is leaking out a lot. Maybe taking parenting classes together and only interfering to tell the children to listen to their father instead if swooping in would help with the resentment. If he plays too roughly then of course swoop in but don't draw it out just end things. An apology is nice but it sounds like your DD recovered fast and didn't need one and your pushing for one created a resistance towards interacting with either of you.

If the resentment is over parenting disputes it really might be better for the kids if you two seperate, especially if that is the way you are leaning. Living with less anger may be good for all of you and short of abuse I don't think he will damage them.


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

Most of his anger seems to be about me and the disparity in our choices about parenting, and me not making as much money as I did pre-kids. Before I was the chief breadwinner and now I make half of what he does. This is financially stressful.

It also sounds like resentment about the kids changing our lives from what it was, and him not getting as much attention. I was all about pleasing him.


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## Katie8681 (Dec 29, 2010)

Outside perspective: your "dear husband" deprived your daughter of air by sitting on her and mashing a pillow over her face. This is extremely, extremely serious.

LEAVE. You are married to a dangerous man.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I think it sounds like your DH doesnt feel very empowered or comfortable to discipline the kids in the way he sees fit or to do what he thinks needs to be done to end play that is going in a direction he doesnt like. (That is, why does he allow himself to get more and more upset and then snap rather than say NO to the children when he wants them to stop?) you heard him getting stressed out...i think you should have immediately went in there and said "kids, dad's had enough of that game, why dont you go do..." And i think speaking for your daughter to get an apology out of dad didnt help the situation. When i read that it almost sounded like you were "scolding" him in front of his own daughter. Like something you'd do to another child" Timmy, Susie would like an apology"...NOT the child's father. Thats just my take on it. Not excusing what he did to her, sounds like he got frustrated with the play and snapped. I'd ask him what he thinks would help when he starts getting frustrated, does he need your help in handling the children at that time? Does he need to take a break and get some space? how are his interactions with the kids when he isnt stressed out?

Does he realize how fed up you are with his anger issues, that you are considering divorce if it werent for then having to leave the kids with him alone? Does he realize you are at that level? and if so, he is still unwilling to try to fix it?


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

What he did sounds really serious. I have to admit, if it were me I would have done more than ask him to apologize. I would probably have called the police and left that night. To be really honest I may have tried to physically harm him myself! Not saying that part is right but I am just being really honest. The moment someone hurts my child I would have turned into a monster.

I am not one to tell someone to leave their husband, especially on an Internet forum where the real picture cannot really be portrayed from one post. But... your husband, from this post, sounds VERY immature and totally out of control with his anger. How does a grown man threaten to suffocate their kid and then refuse to show affection? The only thing he is teaching your daughter when he acts this way is "love hurts". This is a really hard lesson to unlearn.

It doesn't sound to me like you are being "too sensitive". He's just deflecting responsibility. Sometimes I do stupid things out of frustration when it comes to my son. I hate myself for it. But NEVER to the extent of what you describe. If my husband saw me do that he would freak out.

Has he ever been violent towards you? Has he ever hit the kids?


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Two cents: the level of immaturity, need for your attention, refusal to take responsibility, resentment toward the kids, inability to cope with life - all of this sounds like not only definite anger issues, but potential narcissism. And yes, it does sound extremely dangerous (not just if he succeeds in hurting the children, but the emotional damage he is doing to them - and that you are complicit in. Deep down, you know the situation is bad, that's why you "try to keep it light" or put a normalizing spin on it. That actually does harm, by making your kids think you feel this is reasonably acceptable, or that you don't see how truly scary and out of control he can be. I also do think your apology encouraging/situation explaining statements remind me of negotiating a conflict between two children - but I don't think that's a fault on your part. I think he is acting like a child, not a parent.)

eta - the rage moments are bad, but even the cold withdrawal is deeply affecting your kids.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> Most of his anger seems to be about me and the disparity in our choices about parenting, and me not making as much money as I did pre-kids. Before I was the chief breadwinner and now I make half of what he does. This is financially stressful.
> 
> It also sounds like resentment about the kids changing our lives from what it was, and him not getting as much attention. I was all about pleasing him.


I think bringing this up in counseling is a good idea but if that is really the root of the problem leaving will probably help both of you.and your kids. My mother and I got to a similar point with resenting each other and sadly it resulted in not wanting to be around DD when it reached a certain level and leaving relieved all of those feelings. This isn't the same as a marriage but sometimes leaving the problem does help. It sounds like you both are working towards compromise in therapy and pointing out what you see as an cause then working together there may be very helpful.

I can't tell if he was rough playing and got too rough or was being violent from your description. Since she could breathe enough to get upset and got up and ran to you I am guessing too rough. Either way I think this also needs to be addressed in the next therapy session.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Wait, so your husband put a pillow over your daughter's FACE!?!?! And you want to know if you're over reacting?

I'm FREAKING OUT!!!!!!!

That is not even an okay thing to do as a pretend joke.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Couldn't read and not comment. My husband is the same way, I believe he is narcissistic. It all climaxed when in the span of a week he got physically aggressive with our oldest 3 times. We are staying married, but the kids and I are moving 3.5 hours away so I can go back to school. It's half a plan to better my life and the kids lives and half to get us apart. He can support us while I go to school then I can leave and offer him no child support in return for full custody. I won't need support because I'll be a CPA with a masters in accounting and able to work from home. All this to say, you may just need to be creative. *hugs*


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MichelleZB*
> 
> Wait, so your husband put a pillow over your daughter's FACE!?!?! And you want to know if you're over reacting?
> 
> ...










Sometimes, when you're in it, it's hard to see just how insane this is - but it's bad. It reminds me of babies dying due to suffocation or shaken baby syndrome when a parent snaps. Really, really, deeply not ok.

One more thing, you may be overestimating your ability to mitigate damage by mediating. If he resents the kids, he may not even seek or be able to maintain shared custody. I agree with thinking strategically, but don't write off leaving. You have put up some emotional barriers against him as an adult, but you ask what you can do for your kids - they are incapable of coping well with this - they need actual physical distance to begin to process and heal.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

What he did to your daughter is really terrible. Even if it's just playing around. If I found out that one of my kids did that to a friend when they were playing I would freak out. And a grown person doing that to a kid....







.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> . Am I being too sensitive as is suggested by DH?


God, no!!! You didn't get angry enough at him, in my opinion.

If you stay in this marriage, you can't just be a "mediator." You have to be a full-on mama bear. In fact, sometimes you might have to call the police.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Also with my husband, I physically step in the second I feel it's needed. This morning we were trying to get everyone dressed and my oldest wouldn't put on pants. I saw my husband roughly holding him by the arm and pulling him down the hallway so I yelled at him to stop and stepped between them. I held the kids hand and we walked to the living room to put on his pants (my oldest is 4). When we got there he said "Thanks mom for saving me". </3

I don't allow them to be alone at any point, I get a babysitter if I have a dr appointment, etc.

DH doesn't realize I'm doing it to keep him from the kids, he just thinks I'm helpful.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I agree with the previous posters who are horrified at the level of violence and risk to the child in the incident you describe.

I do not agree with your therapist that your DH has to get to the roots of his anger. He has to stop acting out violently, period. Getting to the roots of your anger is for people who yell and stamp their feet, or are sour or grumpy. A person who reacts to his frustration with his child by smothering her with a pillow does not have the luxury of waiting until he gets to the roots of his feelings to change his behavior. He has to stop NOW.

I understand that you feel like you can't split up and leave them alone with him for visitation. You need to talk about this to the couples counselor and to a domestic violence counselor and get information and help brainstorming.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Just wanted to add a story from my past: When I was a child, my Dad came to tuck me in and told me this rhyme - Roses are red, violets are black, you'd look much better with s knifed in your back. WTF, right? For over a year I slept in my back so it wouldn't be exposed to possible knives. This is one of my primary memories of my Dad, who also has issues with anger. I say this just to illustrate how profoundly these incidents can stick in a kid's head.


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## Katie8681 (Dec 29, 2010)

What data there is on domestic violence tells us that choking violence is a strong predictor of future homicide. That's the case with intimate partner violence. Don't see why it would be terribly different in a parent/child case.

I don't care that it's an Internet forum, you should get your kids out of there. Yourself too, but if you can't do it for yourself do it for your kids. Make a plan. Please.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Get your kids the hell out of there. He is dangerous. He reminds me of my dad, and when I was fourteen my dad attempted to shoot my mom. Don't let it get anywhere near that point.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Katie8681*
> 
> What data there is on domestic violence tells us that choking violence is a strong predictor of future homicide. That's the case with intimate partner violence. Don't see why it would be terribly different in a parent/child case.
> 
> I don't care that it's an Internet forum, you should get your kids out of there. Yourself too, but if you can't do it for yourself do it for your kids. *Make a plan.* Please.


^ This. (In bold).

No one can truly judge this situation the way you can. The realities and complexities of it. It's up to you to make a decision on the future of your family and kids.... it must be such a hard position to be.







It sounds as though leaving is not an easy or straightforward (or desirable on some levels?) option? The comments that are just saying "leave already" - are not able to take into account your reality, financial, emotional....otherwise. Only you can answer the question of how seriously you should take his anger (and his potential for more scary, and/or harmful violence), and what it might mean for you and your kids' futures.

Much sympathy and an internet hug to you. Talking to a trusted person about the future, and a plan of what/how/when (if anything) - would be a really great idea if you can do it. Best, best wishes.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

This situation is still really bothering me. He could so easily kill her without meaning to, by sitting on her/putting a pillow on her face. I'd call 911 next time. And if he's in jail, it will be easier to leave him.

You could still call Child-Protective Services on him, even after the fact. What he did was child abuse.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

My two cents, I am a firm believer that marriage is forever. However, in the situation u discribed, I would have called the police. That is serious and a half! If the police are called, there will be a police report therefore, if you ever end up in a custody battle, you can reference that. Using something like that in court would guarantee that he would never ever have unsupervised visitation.

You may need to get to a place where you can communicate that you are legitimately afraid for the safety of your children to him, and separate for awhile while he works through his own issues.
It's not an easy situation, and there is no easy solution. I hope you can figure out what is best for your family and work through this.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Do not leave your children with him unattended.

You know that his behavior is inappropriate; that's why you posted here. There is no situation in which covering a child's mouth and nose so that they couldn't breathe would be okay. Someone who is doing that needs serious counseling and parenting education before they are around children again.

This article talks about reasons people don't report child abuse:

http://www.military.com/spouse/relationships/5-reasons-people-dont-report-child-abuse.html

The second one sounds like what you may be thinking: "*You doubt yourself and think you are the one who is overreacting."*

Given your descriptions of his behavior you need to have a safety plan in place for your family:

http://www.ndvh.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/Safety-Planning-2.pdf


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## asummers80 (Mar 13, 2013)

I felt the need to reply because I think your situation is quite serious. I was in a relationship similar to the one you describe, and was incredibly lucky to get out before either my daughter or I was hurt. I too went to marriage counseling with my ex, but I had a really good counselor who said to me she only recommends separation in 2 cases. Abuse and Addiction. At the last appointment I went to she told me that I was in great danger and told me to get a protective order. My relationship had not reached the level of violence that your H exacted against your daughter. I really think you should talk to a domestic violence advocate, and make a plan to get out. I also think this incident should be reported to the police. I know it is scary, and you feel like you will be judged, and the thought of leaving is daunting. I will tell you that situations like this are a cycle and they only escalate. Once a threshold has passed like moving from yelling to throwing things or throwing things to physical violence they don't go in reverse. There is also a really low rate of recovery for abusers after years of intense therapy. You know that this situation is not right please start making a plan to get out of the situation, and reach out for support. Here is the hotline for the National Domestic Violence Hotline at *1−800−799−SAFE(7233)* or *TTY 1−800−787−3224.* Contact an advocate at a safe house. Every advocate I have ever talked to has been incredible. They will help you navigate and find whatever resources you need. They are also wonderful at listening. Good luck to you.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Your husband is the one with the problem. You are underreacting if anything. You definitely need to get your children out of this environment! They are in real danger. And assuming they aren't smothered by their father, they will grow up thinking this is normal, and reenact this pattern in their own relationships, and 30 years from now your daughter could be writing a post like this one on an Internet forum of the future and adding a sentence like "My dad used to do this kind of stuff and my mom would just try to cajole him out of it, so I guess it's normal, but ..." So please don't wait to make a plan and get out. The previous posters gave some good information.


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## deminc (Mar 31, 2008)

Eko_mom,
I read your post to my husband. His reply- this guy needs to be reported.

It is strange that both of you don't seem to see this is a real problem. Will you accept it if another individual does it to your daughter? Should not the fact that a parent is the one doing it makes it even worse?

My husband and I have certain protocol for discipline. My husband is very strong with a very firm grip. There was an incident when he gripped my son firmly while talking to him angrily. I cut in and fished my son out of the situation while dh cooled off. The next day there were bruises on my son's arm. Dh and I agreed immediately that he would not even touch the kids when he is angry, and there has never been a repeat incident. I also spoke to my son about it and explained the agreement that dad and mum came up with to prevent it because it was not our intention to hurt him in any way. Ds said he appreciated that.


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

I didnt read all the posts - i apologize if this is a repeat - BUT, when someone tells you "You are being too sensitive" they really mean " i do not care enough about you to change my actions" - i hope that makes sense.

He sounds like a selfish, immature jackass. I quit my job when i had DS 3 yrs ago - my DH is now working 2 jobs so i can stay home with that DS - not to mention so 'we' can pay for college for my DD - who is a product of my first marriage.....

He never complains about the money we are missing out on - he knows that this a transient phase of a few years and the day will come when he will retire and i will work a job (or two)

Sorry to ramble about my own life but your DH sounds like someone who is very hard to live with - have you ever considered help from a 12 step program like ACOA? it sounds like this may be his issue....

http://www.adultchildren.org/

http://www.drjan.com/

And as for joint custody - absolutely NOT - start a diary right now - complete with dates and times and write down every damn incident like this - every time he yells at the kids etc....use this forum for a while if you want....sounds like DH like yours is likely to see you writing, find the diary, read it - and blow up. Speak to a lawyer - sounds like you will NEED to hire a lawyer - remember , some will agree to a payment plan - and almost all will offer an hour of free counsel.

Family court should respect your wishes for supervised visitation. Dont let that be the 'one' reason holding you back from considering divorce. Sounds like this guy needs some help growing up and you cant do that for him.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I've been asked to edit this post because the moderator feels is to stated in too strong of language, but since it has been marked as helpful by 8 posters, I'm going to do my edits in purple.

(I wrote this post right after Father's Day, which is a day that always puts me in a pissy mood.)

I grew up with an abusive father and a door mat for a mother. My thought in reading the post is that the way these events played out won't keep happening.The kids started by PLAYING with dad, and they will quickly learn not to do that. They will learn to keep their eyes down and stay quiet, so they can stay safe.

I do not mean to imply that the OPer is a door mat. I think it is still very early in this family's situation, and that she has real choices to make. I feel that *my mother* is a door mat because she is still living with an emotional abusive man who treats her badly, and she is now in her late 60s. She never protected us, and she isn't protecting herself.

The daughter is likely to be molested (even if dad doesn't, he is setting her up to be a compliant, easy target), and she will most likely date boys who abuse her, because she is being TAUGHT that is what it feels like when a man loves you. She may end up with a life time of emotional problems (I spent years in therapy and am officially "sane," my sister didn't care for therapy so she is in and out of residential treatment for bi-polar and psychosis.)

I am concerned about the long term damage done to children by living in situations where they are not safe. It effects emotional development on a very deep level, and plays out in ALL other relationships -- with peers and adults, with males and females, and eventually with their romantic/sexual relationships. I think it would be foolish to not be honest with one's self about what repeated incidents like the one you described will have on her.

And the 4 year old little boy? We all know what sort of husband and father he will grow up to be.

I think this is too harsh of a statement -- we all have the power to chose what sort of person we want to be, and while some paths may be easier for us that others, as adults, we are each totally responsible for our own actions. As a parent, I try to make the path I would prefer for my kids to be the easier path, but they are teens and I see their own choices and genetics having an impact. Raising children isn't like following a recipe where we can follow directions and get a certain result.

It's your choice. You can do what my mom did -- nothing. Or you can give your kids a safe place to grow up. Which, frankly, is a heck of a lot more important than homeschooling or organic food or cloth diapers or 99% of what gets talked about on mothering.

I think figuring out how to give your kids a safe space is really key, and it sounds like you are already thinking and working on that. I can see why you want to try to ensure that he doesn't have MORE unsupervised time with them after splitting than he does now, and I think that being smart in making a solid plan is a GREAT idea.

I wasn't safe as a child, but I grew up in the suburbs and took piano lessons and went to church and all that. As I got into my teens, I really wished that my mother had gotten my sister and I out, even if it meant we had to be really, really poor. Being poor would have been much better *for me* than growing up not being safe.


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

Linda on the Move...you absolutely nailed it


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

OP, I'm responding without reading the other posts. I think I would go to your therapist with this privately and ask for some guidance. To me this sounds like something I would want to start recording in an official way. I do very much understand you being fearful of separation because of shared custody. If a situation like this is something that does not surprise you, I would be working privately and methodically towards sole custody.

Perhaps if you work privately with that and have a lawyer and good records you can use that to scare your DH into getting very serious and proactive help with anger management.

I realize you don't feel you're there yet but a woman's shelter may be able to give you some much needed support and perspective.

Big hugs to you. I hope you get the help and support you need, mama.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Katie8681*
> 
> Outside perspective: your "dear husband" deprived your daughter of air by sitting on her and mashing a pillow over her face. This is extremely, extremely serious.
> 
> LEAVE. You are married to a dangerous man.


I would have to agree with this. No excuses. Perhaps if he apologized....no such luck....didnt see the harm in what he was doing...then puts the blame on his daughter, implying she was lying and manipulating...wow, ...i wouldnt stay married to such a person.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

It doesn't feel good to me for people to say to a woman in the OP's position "leave, no excuses."

She has already said, in her initial post, that her reason not to leave is that she's afraid that she'd have to share custody with her husband, and that he would then be alone with their children. She also said that he doesn't present as the kind of person who would get angry with his children, most of the time. She could wind up in a situation where she leaves him, but in the divorce he winds up with lots of alone time with the children.

She did not mention anything in this thread about not wanting to leave because of wanting to SAHM or buy organic food. She didn't even say she likes this guy!

I'm with the people who are advocating that she seek help outside the relationship. People have mentioned talking to:

* the police (dialing 911)

* the department of social services/child protective service

* the marriage counselor they are seeing together

* a domestic violence counselor at a women's shelter or DV prevention agency

She could also call:

* a lawyer

* a non-profit child abuse prevention hotline

The question is how to get out of this without exposing the children to more of his bad parenting.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

The OP hasn't even been back or replied....
Hope everything is ok :-\


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## Katie8681 (Dec 29, 2010)

Captain, in a court of law, not reporting this kind of event and getting her child into a safe environment makes her a party to the abuse. Her daughter is verbal. If she is brave enough to tell another adult that Daddy choked her with a pillow, OP could lose her kids.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

True, if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.
It's such a sticky situation. I honestly can't imagine having to face this kind of thing. I sympathize tho, my father was abusive and my mom not only stayed married to him but allowed us kids to be alone with him. Beyond bad sometimes...


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## little feet (Aug 30, 2007)

Your poor daughter! Can you imagine how scared she must have been when her father was trying to smother her? Can you imagine how desperate she must have felt trying to get his affection back afterwards?

This is abuse, no two ways about it. If you do not protect your daughter, she will resent you when she is old enough to understand... and she will suffer from this just as much as she suffers with the long-lasting after-effects of having a physically and emotionally abusive parent.

You need to value your children's physical and mental safety above all else. Clearly, you are the parent who can protect them, so please do! Whatever your husband's problem is (and he does sound like a narcissist, in my opinion), should not be your #1 priority. Protect your kids, and then worry about him once they are safe.

If I sound harsh, it is because I am the survivor of an abusive father and a mother who always justified and allowed the abuse. I don't let my parents see my kids now, because they still act the same way...


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> She has already said, in her initial post, that her reason not to leave is that she's afraid that she'd have to share custody with her husband, and that he would then be alone with their children. She also said that he doesn't present as the kind of person who would get angry with his children, most of the time. She could wind up in a situation where she leaves him, but in the divorce he winds up with lots of alone time with the children.
> 
> ...


yes, but the question the OPer asked is if she is over-reacting in being upset. Because her "dear husband" said she was over-reacting, so she isn't sure.

She didn't ask how to get out and get sole custody. She isn't there yet. The thread has evolved that pretty much everyone agrees that she should be working on an exit plan, and she hasn't said anything else. Because she isn't there yet. She was just trying to figure out if it was OK to be upset.

My earlier post was removed -- if anyone knows why, could you please send me a PM. Thanks!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> yes, but the question the OPer asked is if she is over-reacting in being upset. Because her "dear husband" said she was over-reacting, so she isn't sure.
> 
> ...


Oh, see, I read that totally differently. I thought she wanted to get away from him but didn't think anyone would believe her, and was worried that if she left he'd get enough time with the children without her there that it could be damaging to them. If you go back to read her OP, you can see where she says this.

She's not wrong. Abusive dads can get substantial visitation or custody if the default where the divorcing couple lives has a presumption of 50/50 custody. A lot of people on the thread have offered practical support to get around this problem--suggestions about who to call and how to document the abusive behavior. I saw that as a response both to the severity of the incident she described and as a way of supporting her in doing what I think she wants to do, which is to get away.


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## Grover (Dec 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> yes, but the question the OPer asked is if she is over-reacting in being upset. Because her "dear husband" said she was over-reacting, so she isn't sure.
> 
> ...


I agree with this (in bold). This thread quickly took a very dramatic turn.

I would be a bit reluctant to come back to this thread as the OP, because of the very strong opinions of what OP's *should* do next etc. Whilst there was describing of an incident that on the surface of it indicates other things - only OP really knows the situation, and how seriously to take it.

Having said that - there are some great ideas of external resources/people for her to contact, if she is wanting to.

I hope OP is okay, and finds a way through her feelings and the situation that will move her and her family forward to a better place.


----------



## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> 
> *I would be a bit reluctant to come back to this thread as the OP*, because of the very strong opinions of what OP's *should* do next etc. Whilst there was describing of an incident that on the surface of it indicates other things - *only OP really knows the situation, and how seriously to take it.*
> 
> ...


I would add that *only* a true professional should advise her, a trained person to deal with abuse and a lawyer. Crap said on messages boards are not a substitute for real life or a truism!

If I was the OP and read this thread I would be alarmed by some of what was said and I would never post here again.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I came back to this thread to read your post along with the others, but cant find it...i cant think why it was removed

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> My earlier post was removed -- if anyone knows why, could you please send me a PM. Thanks!


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I agree with others -- no, you are absolutely not being "too sensitive"!!!! I also agree that its way to easy for people on a message board to jump from there to "leave right now". As a first step, now that your concern has been validated, could you talk to your marriage therapist in private and tell him/her what is going on and get his/her opinion and advice? If nothing else, that person might be in a better position to recommend anger management class to your husband where you won't get very far if you do. You might get directed to some additional resources as you travel this road as well, things that are in your community and easy for you to access. If you can also find a parenting class that you can feel good about, maybe suggest that as a "way to be on the same page" rather than as a confrontational thing. Maybe it will help, couldn't hurt and you might learn some tips and see what a healthier dynamic looks like.


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## sueisisdaphne (May 25, 2013)

Oh my goodness. No that is not right. Unfortunately I do know somewhat how you feel. When you are in the situation yourself, people generally sometimes tend to make excuses in order to try to forgive the bad person. I too was afraid of leaving my husband because his mother is a Sociopath (different than your situation, but read on). I thought that if I would leave him he would then for sure bring the kids to see her and so far she has slightly poisioned my daughter twice. I can't prove it. Currently I told him that we can see her but only if I'm with the kids - although I don't think they should EVER be near her. I'm doing it ONLY for him. OK and if I completely say no then that would give him more of an excuse to sneak the kids to her behind my back. Well last year it started........he was planning on bringing our kids to her without my knowledge. I found out. I have tons of stress just trying to keep an eye on things. Since then he has and still is hiding things more. I told him I want a seperation (because I figure if he's going to go behind my back anyway, then what's the use of being with him). We are working on things. The professional therapist that I know has told me that he shouldn't even ever see her again.(I was shocked, since she is his mother). But since she is a sociopath, she can't change.

Too make things worse, his brother is probably a child molester(I don't know how to say that politically correct).

So you see, I have my hands full. When I told my husband what I saw his brother do, at first he was sick to his stomach like me, but by the end of the day he made excuses for him. Just the same as he is always making excuses for his mother or telling me that it is my fault.

I understand how you need to get your kids away from your husband but can't figure out the right way to do it and if you even can or should. You don't want your kids to live their life in fear of him. But will he snap and kill them.

I wish you and your kids strength, courage and to be protected.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Grover*
> 
> I agree with this (in bold). This thread quickly took a very dramatic turn.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think the the "parents as partners" or "single parent" sub-forms might be helpful places for her to sort this out. I know that there are old threads about women who have dealt with husbands who they are rightfully concerned about leaving their children alone with, or custody issues should they decide to end the relationship. This isn't a new topic for mothering.

This thread has been on my mind, and I think that part of what happened is that the OPer was posting about her husband's *anger* problem, and what she was told back is that he is *abusive*. That is a big jump.

A lot of us get angry, and sometimes we fail to express our anger in the Gandi like way we would prefer. Expressing anger inappropriately means we are human. However, there is a line be where it becomes abuse. With facts in black and white on a post, it is easy to draw a judgement about a person we've never met and if they have crossed the line from "inappropriate expression of anger," to "abuse."

But real life and people we know and care about are different. May be because we see their strengths as well. May be because the costs for us is so high in deciding it's abuse.

Whatever is going on the for the OPer right now, she could start contacting helpful resources and lining things up *just in case* things get worse, or things become more clear to her.


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## Mom2Lili (Feb 11, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> My dh and I have been having problems seeing eye to eye since my first child was born 7 + years ago. We have been seeing a marriage counselor who thinks that he needs to address the roots of his anger and get rid of it. He is mostly in denial. He has about a 10 minute frustration-with-kids threshold then uses threats, raising his voice, physically restraining or moving the children (7 and 4), controlling through being angry or manipulating by withdrawing his love/affection. This is his daily MO.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mom2Lili (Feb 11, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *3LilChunklins*
> 
> The OP hasn't even been back or replied....
> Hope everything is ok :-\


Get out for the kids! My step father did all of what you have been saying and it messed me up for years. Lots of theray drug use and drug treatment to deal with that! Your children are suffering.... Covering her mouth is horrifying. He could have killed her.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> Most of his anger seems to be about me and the disparity in our choices about parenting, and me not making as much money as I did pre-kids. Before I was the chief breadwinner and now I make half of what he does. This is financially stressful.
> 
> It also sounds like resentment about the kids changing our lives from what it was, and him not getting as much attention. I was all about pleasing him.


<disclaimer- I have not read the whole thread!!!>

After reading your story and then reading *this* response I am chilled a little bit by the similarity of your situation to a situation I am close to in my life with someone I care about and her significant other.

He is manipulative, smart, withholds love/positive comments/attention/affection and even lashes out inappropriately.

Her fears are similar to yours about needing to remain in the relationship to mediate between her spouse and her kids.

My feelings are that ultimately your choice to stay does send a clear a message to your children that ultimately you do condone your husbands behavior. How will you feel with your kids growing up thinking that you think that the way their dad treats them is appropriate?

And holding a pillow over your daughters face? Am I missing something? That's horrifying to me. And if someone says stop, in our house you STOP. Boundaries are SO important.

I say therapy is your only option and then separation or both.

My two cents.

So sorry you are going through this.


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Also I do recognize some issues for the OP of not trusting her own instincts. This is a tactic that abusers use to make the abused question their own thoughts and feelings. It's really scary, I see it in real life in a few friends relationships and sadly enough it works. They start to believe that they don't know whats right or appropriate and think they should replace their own ideas/thoughts/feelings for that of the abuser.

This is not a good path to be on, for yourself you need to get therapy to reconnect with your own inner voice, strength and power and for your kids to see their mom as their voice, their protector and to see that they should not grow up to emulate their dad or look for their dad's bad qualities in their own relationships.

And yes, the OP did only give us a small glimpse but that peek is stuffed full of information that is scary.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Old thread here, but I just want to put my thoughts down. I've got a problem with the jump from 'anger problem' to 'abusive' response, too.But maybe it startled the OP enough to look at her situation with new eyes.

There are a few things moms do, in the name of stepping in between dad and child, that I think are harmful to the dad/child relationship. But, that's aside from a dad asphyxiating his child and then telling their mom she's over reacting. IMO, telling a dad to apologize to dd, in front of dd, is a bad idea and does nothing but erode at respect for him. But this particular dad tore up that inherit-right-to-a-little-parental-respect card when he sat on his child and tried to choke her. He needs to earn it back, and he needs to earn his wife's trust back. Sounds like that's not going to happen. This man isn't rational.

OP, it's likely your dh is depressed. And men show depression with irritation and short temperedness. I have gotten extremely angry with my small kids. Honestly, I wanted to smother them with pillows a time or two. But that's when I would leave the room. I knew that was an irrational impulse, and finally I went and got help (medicine/therapy). This is to say maybe if your dh got help for depression his impulse control would improve. Maybe so. But you can't afford to wait around for him to see the light and heal himself.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

Thank you for all the replies. I have not checked in for a week. I will endeavor to respond to as much as I can. This one first:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> I think it sounds like your DH doesnt feel very empowered or comfortable to discipline the kids in the way he sees fit .. And i think speaking for your daughter to get an apology out of dad didnt help the situation. When i read that it almost sounded like you were "scolding" him in front of his own daughter. ...I'd ask him what he thinks would help when he starts getting frustrated, does he need your help in handling the children at that time? Does he need to take a break and get some space? how are his interactions with the kids when he isnt stressed out?
> 
> Does he realize how fed up you are with his anger issues, that you are considering divorce if it werent for then having to leave the kids with him alone? Does he realize you are at that level? and if so, he is still unwilling to try to fix it?


He is not empowered because I do not agree that authoritarian, threatening, punitive types of discipline. I did not ask for him to apologize to my daughter, I tried to make a dialog happen by saying, DD "felt scared by what happened." Then, after he negated her experience by saying that he thought she wanted me to think that it scared her, I said, "I think she might feel better if you said you are sorry..." To give him a chance to start talking it through and to show that what happened was NOT o.k. so fix it.

I can help him when I am here to intervene or distract, but he resents it often. I don't know what to do when I am not here. OR, if I should leave, presuming shared custody, that he should have them alone and my dd in particular, but also my son would not have any help from me. I know what he is doing is abusive and damaging. But not to a lot of people. People still spank out there and yell at their kids and demean them.

I know that his well of anger is not o.k and that these manifestations are not o.k. but I don't know how to handle it best. He's going to be their dad their whole lives. Everyone else would be shocked and awed to realize that he's doing this stuff in private. He looks like the perfect funny, fun dad. That is the part I think is so damaging---to hurt, then normalize and act like that's just part of the relationship and its o.k.

He does realize I am at this level. I spelled it out last week, but he knows the financial constraints and I don't think he thinks I would actually leave. He's also in some basic level of denial that these are even valid issues or that he has anger problems.

More later.


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## erinsuzy (Mar 22, 2012)

"We went back into the room, and I said, I think Emma would like it if you said you were sorry for scaring her. He just ignored me. Then, my DD tried to get his affection and listen to the book he was reading and he kept pushing her away. I asked why he was so angry and he said he wasn't."

On top of almost suffocating the child, he

- Ignored your request to apologize or talk to his daughter

- Denied being angry when it was obvious he was

- And then he pushes away the daughter, who HE hurt, when she is taking an uneeded mature step in trying to get HIS affection and only getting rejected in return. So not only could she feel that her dad does not care about her feelings, but that she is unworthy of his affection when he gets in trouble for hurting her (as if she is just supposed to "suck it up" and not tell next time?).

This sounds bold, but if he does not get some sort of therapy now, your daughter/children may be the ones who are getting therapy later. I grew up with a verbally abusive father, and the affects to my self esteem have been long term. Even just the choice of words and playing with a child's emotions can do enough damage.


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

So, some of you have mentioned some pretty horrifying experiences and possible extensions that my husband's (H) might predict. So, those are sort of hyperbolic and not that useful because then I start thinking, "well, its not THAT bad." I don't think he will kill them, molest them, or I don't know what. But he does seem like he has no mastery over his responses, and more troubling that he doesn't see them as particularly problematic--he can always say "I shouldn't have done that but..." inferring that there is some level of fault of the kids asking for it or deserving it.

But many of you have pointed to the precise point that I have and that is whether I am being complicit. And, I feel I am. That is the thing making me sick. I don't want to traumatize my kids more.

H raises his voice at them, pushes, grabs hard. He thinks that is o.k., or justifiable based on his responses to my questioning him.

Last night he tried to separate the kids from horsing around and pushed my son, which caused my son to run up to him and start punching him in the legs and screaming.

This morning my daughter and son were wrestling and got into a scrape (she accidentally hit him and he started hitting her) and H went to separate them and pushed his hand toward my daughter's mouth to stop her from screaming -- she described it as that he hit her. I convened a family talk to say that hurting another person is not o.k., H stood for it but then within a few minutes my daughter was trying to play with him again hanging on his pants and he grabbed her arms and hurt her to get her off. I confronted him about it and he is at the level that he is provoked.

I see that I need to leave because I can't stand by and watch. I am scared that he will get shared custody---we are in California and that I won't be there when they need me. Survivor guilt---like I can get out, but they can't.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> pushed my son, which caused my son to run up to him


I apologize if you mentioned this already, is he their father or step father? I suppose that doesn't actually matter; his behavior is inappropriate regardless.

Quote:


> But many of you have pointed to the precise point that I have and that is whether I am being complicit. And, I feel I am. That is the thing making me sick. I don't want to traumatize my kids more.


This is such a complex issue, involving your most important relationships. This is simply hard to figure out. One never thinks their partner will be that kind of parent; we assume our partner will be the other, better parent. But you're here! Because you're questioning the situation, specifically your part in it. Which is great.


----------



## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> It doesn't feel good to me for people to say to a woman in the OP's position "leave, no excuses."
> 
> ...


OK dear virtual friends.

So, the YWCA and the CPS people were encouraging and said that I am doing the right thing, but the therapist made me feel like I just need to work harder with H.

I called the domestic violence counselor in our area (YMCA). She said "red flags" all over the place. They advised me to call CPS. I called CPS. The social worker was "concerned" and also saw "red flags." She wondered why our therapist, a mandated reporter had not called to make a report. I made the report to them about today and about the smothering incident, which they may or may not investigate. He's Mr. All-American, smart, good looking, articulate. He's never going to forgive me for reporting, even though its confidential, he'll know it was me, and they will probably just see it as my fault somehow or my overreacting.

Our therapist said that although the things we've been talking about in therapy are "problematic", and that she thinks he is trying and she thinks it was more of an issue of how to come to an agreement on how to discipline the children. Back to my original post, "Am I Overreacting?"

And now I've opened up our family to a agency that can take my kids away from me. Good move Mom. Excellent. And now I don't know what to do about him coming home tonight. 80% of the time he's fine to excellent. I feel fairly screwed.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

Oh, I am so sorry! I really hope you can figure this out


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Hugs to you. I hope you find a resolution soon. What an incredibly difficult situation.


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

Hold on a second here! The therapist saying don't leave just work harder, isn't that like super job security, I mean I know she's supposed be helping you here, but that just kinda sounds like a conflict of interest.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *3LilChunklins*
> 
> Hold on a second here! The therapist saying don't leave just work harder, isn't that like super job security, I mean I know she's supposed be helping you here, but that just kinda sounds like a conflict of interest.


Therapists are human, and they come to couples counseling with their own biases. Sometimes couples counseling can be great anyway, if the counselor is really professional and smart. I don't know enough about this counselor to say, but I didn't think she sounded professional and smart in the OP, and now I doubt her competence even more.

We all heard first about the most extreme thing that eko_mom has seen her husband do. Unless she told this specific story to the counselor, it's likely that the counselor didn't think the situation mandated a report. The DV counselor did hear the pillow story first, and she did hear it as a problem.

I had a conversation over the weekend (about a different parenting problem, not this one) and two mandated reporters told me that most reports are screened out. In my state, from what i understand, child protective services wouldn't charge out to investigate the situation, much less take away the children.

It sounds like eko_mom's husband has a pattern of horsing around with the kids and then wanting to change gears and get their respectful obedience. He's setting up behavior that he can't tolerate, and then losing control of his reactions.

This isn't really about getting angry. Getting angry isn't terrible. Everyone gets angry. Not everyone thinks that it's therefore OK to push or shove, or cover the child's mouth. I don't think this is a matter for compromise.


----------



## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

Oh yea, most definitely, therapists and counselors have their place! I'm not trying to say they're all crooked gold diggers or anything like that at all. Just this particular situation sounded shady to me.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> I feel fairly screwed.


Let's hope the biggest of hopes that these agencies know how delicate this situation is! Mama, I think you are doing a brave and unimaginatively difficult thing for your kids. From the sounds of things, your family really did need a good shaking up and you've done that! I feel like I get why you're nervous but I want to say that your intentions are clear - you're looking out for the kids you and your DH share together. In effect, you're looking out for your entire family. However this goes may be a shock to your DH but I hope you hold close your motivations and remain confident in that and I hope that whatever happens your DH can see that too. Big, huge hugs to you, mama!! I admire you and am sending you strength and resolve.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> Our therapist said that although the things we've been talking about in therapy are "problematic", and that she thinks he is trying and she thinks it was more of an issue of how to come to an agreement on how to discipline the children. Back to my original post, "Am I Overreacting?"


This is frustrating to hear. I would worry about this therapist's opinion on discipline. I can imagine a scenario where a difference of opinion about parenting philosophies gets in the way of objective therapy. I realize that therapists are probably trained in this but, still, AP and NFL are still somewhat fringe (in some ways) and it's possible that this therapist is projecting some of her opinions about parenting onto your relationship.

Given the fact that a domestic violence volunteer questioned whether your therapist had a professional obligation to report some of what you've been discussing in therapy and this therapist hasn't even pulled you aside for some more questions makes me also question her professionalism.


----------



## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> 80% of the time he's fine to excellent. I feel fairly screwed.


It's reasonable to be nervous about taking action - once you do anything you can't undo - but this situation was/is not sustainable. You are courageous and absolutely doing the right thing.









Don't second guess yourself. Kids don't turn out 80% ok because their dad was ok 80% of the time. That's just not how it works. A parent can absolutely do enough damage on bad days to make the good days irrelevant. The bad days, however infrequent, still paint a disturbed picture in your children's world - still set them at risk for negative relationships, drug abuse, depression, etc. later on. The sooner you can get them away from him, the sooner they can begin to heal.









I disagree with your therapist - it doesn't sound to me like H is "trying" at all - it sounds like he's shifting blame onto the kids, and taking no personal responsibility. Immature at best, narcissistic at worst. At any rate, you can't work on behavior if you think it's ok or non-existent. I, too, question her judgment.

As for custody, he may or may not even go after it (perhaps for appearances, but then realize he can't handle them on his own for any amount of time). I know it's a scary idea for him to have custody, but getting it doesn't mean he will be able (or want) to keep it, either. Something to keep in mind, anyway...definitely document everything (including your conversations with him about it). Huge hugs!!!


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

I definitely started something I can't undo. I feel alternately relieved and excited (about life where people aren't angry all the time) and a sense of doom, like I've made a terrible mistake. Most advice I have gotten from family has been for me to be a better wife--make more money, or give more affection and sex, to keep the family together, that the best gift you can give your child is their dad...so this is difficult...I should try harder.

H comes home in a few hours. We will talk about separating. I'm embarrassed I reported him and afraid to tell him. We don't have the means to run 2 households. Between a rock and a hard place.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> ... that the best gift you can give your child is their dad...so this is difficult...I should try harder.
> 
> H comes home in a few hours. We will talk about separating. I'm embarrassed I reported him and afraid to tell him. We don't have the means to run 2 households. Between a rock and a hard place.


Here's what I think, Eko. I think you are giving your kids the gift of a mom. I know you are their mom now but you are standing up for what you feel is right and that's part of being a whole person. You don't even have to be making all the right choices right now. What matters is that you're acknowledging a problem and dealing with it as best you can.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> H comes home in a few hours. We will talk about separating. I'm embarrassed I reported him and afraid to tell him. We don't have the means to run 2 households. Between a rock and a hard place.


You don't have to talk to him tonight. Have you gotten any advice from someone you trust about how to go about discussing this with your DH?


----------



## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> I definitely started something I can't undo. I feel alternately relieved and excited (about life where people aren't angry all the time) and a sense of doom, like I've made a terrible mistake. Most advice I have gotten from family has been for me to be a better wife--make more money, or give more affection and sex, to keep the family together, that the best gift you can give your child is their dad...so this is difficult...I should try harder.
> 
> H comes home in a few hours. We will talk about separating. I'm embarrassed I reported him and afraid to tell him. We don't have the means to run 2 households. Between a rock and a hard place.


I am sorry you are dealing with this situation. It is spinning out of control, but I understand how hard it is to live with toxic people.

I think that if I were looking for that nudge to get out of a marriage, my dirt on this forum would be a very surefire nudge in that very direction. Based on what you said with the smothering incident, this was your DD's version of things, am I correct? Am I also correct in that your DD later fibbed a little bit about a later incident?

The reason I am asking is because I am truly unclear about these details. And they are important. Anyone from CPS is going to see red flags all over the place. As are most people who deal with abusive domestic issues.

However, your husband is clearly very angry and clearly his behavior around the kids needs to change. If he is willing to go to counselling and the therapist is fully aware of his behavior, isn't there hope that he is willing to change? Do you truly feel he is unwilling to change and that he is not a good father?

My own father is toxic and angry and abusive, but not over the top. The problem isn't that; it's his inability to change and see where he is at fault.


----------



## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

eko - I'm so sorry you are surrounded by unsupportive people. I grew up in a household like yours and I can tell you - there is NOTHING you can do when a person has that kind of rage inside. It's completely on them. You could be the perfect wife, and it would not change his actions - you are in no way responsible for his actions. They are entirely his responsibility to acknowledge, change and control.

Please don't second guess your daughter. Fight for your children. They will realize that you hear them, see the problem, and are on their side. Kudos to you for not being complicit! And please don't "wait and see" if it will spontaneously get better. It won't.

I've spent a lifetime recovering from a childhood like that - it has not been pretty. I'm very lucky to still be here. Regardless of how those around you were raised and their deluded thinking (sometimes people need to believe the way they were raised was ok, because the pain of accepting that it was not is too much to bear) - you are doing the right thing by your children, by letting them lead healthy, safe lives where they are trusted and heard.

The right thing to do is certainly not always the easiest, but I would never say that this is "spinning out of control" - it's a path to a better place, it may have it's obstacles and twists and turns - and I feel for you that you even have to face these challenges!







Nobody asks for this. But it will also be immeasurably worth it.

I completely agree with IdentityCrisisMama - you are a super mom and your kids are lucky to have you looking out for them.







As for survivor's guilt, you can't know what the future will hold, but you can take the next best step by starting the process to get them out of there. That alone shows you believe in them and that you know they deserve better, which is immensely validating (and healing) in their world.

"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step." ~MLK Jr.


----------



## Songy (May 7, 2012)

Wow, this is so much to deal with. I'm so sorry. First, you are not to blame. Even if you are a horrible wife (which I doubt), your husband has no excuse for taking out his violence or rage on your children. It is very hard for extended families to accept it when they hear about a marriage near-and-dear to them breaking up - especially if they had no clue. I hope you can find some friends or your own counselor that can guide and encourage you.

Second, be careful. I would NOT tell your husband that you reported him. If you feel you must, do it in the presence of the marriage counselor. In my experience, these things can escalate quickly. I was married to someone that sounds quite a bit like your H. Luckily, we had no children together, but he would sometimes display this kind of behavior with our pets. Once we separated though, his aggression increased dramatically as things started to get out of his control. I ended up having to call the police several times and get an order of protection. He ended up in a mental hospital with a complete breakdown. He also got into my banking accounts, called to have my electricity shut off, etc. (So definitely get a plan in place. Change your passwords and secret questions, have some sort of way to alert a neighbor for help, have a way to lock yourself in a room you can escape from, etc. These are things I NEVER thought I'd need, but did.

Similarly, everyone thought he was the greatest guy - and he was, most of the time. It wasn't until after we'd divorced and i'd been in therapy awhile that I realized how he'd eroded my confidence to the point that I didn't trust myself or value myself. This is part of the game abusers play to maintain control. So, don't blame yourself. He set it up this way.

Lastly, there is financial help out there. TANF, foodstamps, etc. You will do better than you think. Yes, it will be hard, hard hard in the beginning, but you WILL find a way. You won't be homeless or starve. In a few years, things will probably be better than you can imagine. I'm now 6 years out from my ex. I'm remarried to an amazing guy. I haven't fully recovered financially, but we are slowly getting there. Might not be able to ever buy a house again, but hey, I love how in apartments they tale care of the maintenance!









Please get some people around you who you can lean on. Sometimes, that go-to. Person is the last person you'd expect. It is funny how in times of crisis, the people we think will be there aren't and those that are are a big surprise.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> Based on what you said with the smothering incident, this was your DD's version of things, am I correct? Am I also correct in that your DD later fibbed a little bit about a later incident?
> 
> ...


 I thought, from the initial post, that the little girl reported the incident and the father didn't deny that he had done what she said. Rather, he tried to drown out her account with loud speech and denied that she was actually frightened. (At least, that's how I read it.)

I did not see the OP report that her child had fibbed or exaggerated on other incidents.

Her concern is precisely the one you're stating here: could he change? Is he really as bad as she thinks he might be? If he could change, she would be ill-advised to break up the marriage, since it's very disruptive to the children and has the potential to lead to giving the father more access rather than less access to them. That's why she's here, trying to get feedback on the situation. it's not obvious what she should do, and I don't mean because he's gaslighting her and downplaying her concerns. It's not obvious because he's presenting one way inside their house and another way outside it.

Also, it's complicated because I'm sure the children love him anyway.

I think one issue is that it's difficult for her to find people who take the notion of child abuse seriously enough who are also on the ground to confirm her impressions. It's also really hard when a parent is fine most of the time but goes out of control at other times.

I think if she's afraid to tell him to stop his behavior, that's a big problem. When you talk about red lights, that's a big one.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Her concern is precisely the one you're stating here: could he change? Is he really as bad as she thinks he might be? If he could change, she would be ill-advised to break up the marriage, since it's very disruptive to the children and has the potential to lead to giving the father more access rather than less access to them. That's why she's here, trying to get feedback on the situation. it's not obvious what she should do, and I don't mean because he's gaslighting her and downplaying her concerns. It's not obvious because he's presenting one way inside their house and another way outside it.


Either way, she may have reached a point where she is just fed up, which I understand completely. However, that is one side of the story and some abuse and details on a forum don't qualify us to make huge calls IMHO and I wanted to bring a slightly more questioning than accusing viewpoint for her. I don't think loveless, disrespectful, toxic marriages are good for kids. But like she said they are kind of his prisoner for life. Divorce from a guy like this just might get really abusive. Can she protect the kids from that just by divorcing? What is the best way to avoid his abuse? Perhaps a divorce is not the answer to that, but it comes down to what she can tolerate and whether he is capable of change. Financial issues should not be glazed over; it's not easy and she needs some objectivity, I agree. That is not likely to happen in a forum and I hope she takes this as small part of her counsel.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> Either way, she may have reached a point where she is just fed up, which I understand completely. However, that is one side of the story and some abuse and details on a forum don't qualify us to make huge calls IMHO and I wanted to bring a slightly more questioning than accusing viewpoint for her. I don't think loveless, disrespectful, toxic marriages are good for kids. But like she said he is kind of their prisoner for life. What is the best way to avoid his abuse? Perhaps a divorce is not the answer to that, but it comes down to what she can tolerate and whether he is capable of change. Financial issues should not be glazed over; it's not easy and she needs some objectivity, I agree. That is not likely to happen in a forum and I hope she takes this as small part of her counsel.


I don't think anyone leaves their spouse because of advice from people who only know one part of the story. Some of what is required here is values clarification and reflecting back what we're reading.

What we read was, she has seen a pattern with him riling up the children and then getting angry with them and lashing out physically. The one incident she reported seemed to her very extreme, and it read that way to the rest of us, too. She did not seem to have a reason to doubt the kid. If she thinks the child is reliable, I do, too. Obviously she took this seriously. Her question wasn't "should I believe my daughter," it was "is this as bad as i think it is." In some ways, the extreme responses are helpful, since everyone around her is all, "Tra-la-la, what a nice man, maybe your marriage will improve if you try harder." In other ways, of course, jumping right to the most catastrophic possible outcome is a way for the OP not to take it seriously!

I don't agree that financial issues should be a determining factor. I think her original fear, that he could get 50/50 custody, is a reason to worry. The other stuff seems less important to me. The question is really, is he collaborating on financial decisions with her in the marriage? Because my guess is no. If they split up, I'm going to guess she'll wind up with less money but more control over it.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Captain, I see your points, but I am not making any assumptions based on what little I know from her posts. As I said, somebody looking for a nudge just might need a nudge, and I think that is what she came here for. I don't feel comfortable giving anyone a nudge on something so serious.

I disagree about money. Financial issues are never just financial issues. If she takes her kids out of one bad environment and winds up putting them into another due to financial issues, it's something to be considered. I see a lot of women go from one poor father figure right on to another, and no small part of it is for financial stability where they don't get to live separately from DH#2 and test the waters long enough. Not that I think she will intend to do that, but so many do end up doing that. See the forum for mixed parenting to see what I mean.

Sometimes, coping truly is not the wrong answer and in overly marry-and-divorce prone culture I don't think what she described is reason not to stop and reconsider the facts as they are.


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## Katie8681 (Dec 29, 2010)

Eko, you are strong and brave, even if you don't always feel that way. Your feelings are normal. Don't hesitate to bounce your ideas and concerns off of a domestic violence counselor- you can call more than once! *hug*


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

I've never personally dealt with this (so take this with a grain or two of salt) but from my understanding since she has reported him, now an official report exists. Would that not be enough in a custody battle to keep visitation on a supervised level.
I have seen men get supervised visitation on a whole lot less than that...


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> I definitely started something I can't undo. I feel alternately relieved and excited (about life where people aren't angry all the time) and a sense of doom, like I've made a terrible mistake. Most advice I have gotten from family has been for me to be a better wife--make more money, or give more affection and sex, to keep the family together, that the best gift you can give your child is their dad...so this is difficult...I should try harder.










I'm sorry that you have people in your life you feel that the problem is that you aren't perfect enough.

Personally, I think that the best thing we can give our children is a safe space. It's very basic. I do very much value having 2 parents in a family, and when one parent finds them self trying to decide between creating a safe space for their child or keeping the other parent around, that is just WRONG on so many levels. That really shouldn't have to be a choice. Part of the problem with you trying harder is that you cannot control his behavior -- no matter how hard you try. Only he can, and the more you try the more you are sending the message that it is YOU job, not his, to fix this.

As far as your counselor, does your husband show his true colors in counseling? Does the counselor have any idea what he is really like?

The kids aside, do you feel like you have to tiptoe around to keep him from loosing it?

One thing that has guided me as a parent is the knowledge that some day my kids will be adults, and will most likely talk to me about the choices I made and why I made them. I don't really care what others think of my choices, but I would like for when my kids are all grown up, for them to understand and think I made the right calls. I don't know if that will help you at all, but it might give you a different way to think through the situation.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *3LilChunklins*
> 
> I've never personally dealt with this (so take this with a grain or two of salt) but from my understanding since she has reported him, now an official report exists. Would that not be enough in a custody battle to keep visitation on a supervised level.
> I have seen men get supervised visitation on a whole lot less than that...


I think it is pretty safe to assume that if this ends up in divorce, CPS will have no small part in the judge's ruling about custody for some time at least. The OP also seems to be unsure if she made the right choice, however, and she came here questioning herself in the first place. So, I am still holding out to see if she has any desire left to reconcile. On one hand her point is that her husband is going to be understandably devastated about her involving CPS, but on the other hand, it doesn't have to negate the possibility of them working things out. The only things that dooms that option is still one or both making a conscious decision to end things. CPS can't make that decision.

Her action in calling CPS might just be the wakeup call he needed to understand that she will not tolerate his anger any more and is as serious as divorce. But CPS is generally not good for kids welfare unless there is an emergency situation from what I have seen. Sadly, based on the fact that he is already in therapy, it sounds like he will not take the right steps needed to save his marriage and change his behavior or else she would have given some indication that he is trying.

IF the latter is correct, I say to the original poster that now is the time to make your exit plan as others have already suggested.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> One thing that has guided me as a parent is the knowledge that some day my kids will be adults, and will most likely talk to me about the choices I made and why I made them. I don't really care what others think of my choices, but I would like for when my kids are all grown up, for them to understand and think I made the right calls. I don't know if that will help you at all, but it might give you a different way to think through the situation.


I love this LOTM! When I was first reading this thread and Eko's posts I was moved by the idea of shared custody and what that would mean for the kids in terms of time with their dad. But, the more I read and as, you, Eko, continued to post I started to think of what your action is like for the kids and what that says to them. I know you said you felt your DH would not do serious harm to your kids and, because of that, I kind of feel the benefits of seeing their mom stand up for what a good relationship looks like, what positive parenting looks like, what a strong woman looks like, what trying your best looks like, what advocating for a children looks like... that this will far outweigh the disadvantages to taking action in this situation. I hope things went well last night mama. Hugs again, Eko.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> I definitely started something I can't undo. I feel alternately relieved and excited (about life where people aren't angry all the time) and a sense of doom, like I've made a terrible mistake. Most advice I have gotten from family has been for me to be a better wife--make more money, or give more affection and sex, to keep the family together, that the best gift you can give your child is their dad...so this is difficult...I should try harder.
> 
> H comes home in a few hours. We will talk about separating. I'm embarrassed I reported him and afraid to tell him. We don't have the means to run 2 households. Between a rock and a hard place.


No, the best gift you can give your children is to stand up for them, which is what you have done. I'm so proud of you.

And you didn't start this. He did. Keep reminding yourself of that.

And remember that you can call the police any time you feel threatened by him.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *A&A*
> 
> No, the best gift you can give your children is to stand up for them, which is what you have done. I'm so proud of you.
> 
> ...










A million times. I wish I could like this repeatedly.


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## asummers80 (Mar 13, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eko_mom*
> 
> OK dear virtual friends.
> 
> ...


I know you are questioning your actions to seek help now. I hope to put your mind somewhat at ease about opening yourself up to CPS. When I had to go to the YWCA domestic violence advocates in my area because my ex the advocate showed me how good they are at seeing through facades. Your H may put up a good front, but realize that these people are trained to see beyond the facade. If they weren't there would be a whole lot more children who were not rescued from abusive situations. Even if he manages to put up a good front now, eventually that slips. You said that many of them saw "red flags" so they will come in with a heads-up so to speak.

Back to your original post I don't think you are overreacting. Some of the most helpful advice I received was document, document, document. I think you need to document and keep it in a safe place. If you have a trusted friend or family member I would have them keep the documentation for you. You are not alone, you will be believed, and there are many out there who have weathered these kinds of situations who can be a great source of support. I hope you and your children are safe. Do you have a safe place to go if things get really ugly?


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

Thank you all. I wish I had time to respond to each of your well-thought and heartfelt posts.

I wrote him an email while he was at work saying that I wanted to talk about separating and why. So we did that when he came home. We have a lot of control/power/ego struggles when we discuss things and I think that until I had children (We were together 8 years before that), I was comfortable being compliant in a relationship. Don't get me started on my upbringing and history as to how that is.

This time every time he tried to deflect or defend his position, I came back to the non-negotiability of my stand that: Yelling or raising one's voice and handling children's bodies in any way in anger or with disrespect is not acceptable. Blaming or negating a child's experience, even if it is exaggerated in your opinion is not acceptable.

He is not always like that, and this is the only instance (as first posted) that was this bad. Although I am not discounting the emotional experience of his raising his voice and freezing out to control at all. And, this point I made.

In the end, he became completely contrite instead of defensive.

We chose to stay together at present (because, as a child of divorce, I know the defense of the father that a child feels and I don't want to put my kids in that position. They do love him.)

He apologized to the kids for his behavior. He asked for their help when they see him getting frustrated --- which is a red flag for me--- that is not their job.

He is not to physically intervene in any conflicts between the kids or handle them physically to gain compliance. He has to walk away and I will handle it until he gains the skills/mastery over his anger.

He is going to take a communication workshop, parenting classes and continue therapy -- with a new and hopefully more effective therapist to work on his issues.

I told him I called CPS and that they may investigate. I think it added the necessary gravity. He oddly wasn't angry about that as I expected.

I had to deal with my own feelings of fear, shame, et al. The classic "victim" blaming herself stuff. Its very disorienting to see my situation through the eyes of others. Some of it I know is other people seeing through their own lives and stories but some of it is accurate.

Must go now. Thanks for your continued support. I have also confided in someone close to me here where I live.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm glad you've taken the next steps, eko-mom! It sounds like you are holding strong, and all of your non-negotiables are completely reasonable in order to raise your children in a healthy home with love and respect. I hope his contrition is genuine and life-altering. I trust you will continue to do what you need to to protect your children if it is not.

It's hard for others (myself included) not to view this through our own lens, and I think the shouts of "leave immediately" are, in part, to make sure you understand the gravity of the situation. To help snap you out of that victim self-doubt spiral. To rouse the mama bear in you and bolster your confidence to take action. It sounds like you are pretty clear-headed about this, and have alot of self-knowledge about your history (childhood and relationship).

I would only caution you that if he is abusive, you may notice a cycle. As in, when he realizes he is losing a fight, and that you might leave - he may become extremely contrite, and super nice for an extended period. And then, when he feels you trust him enough again - that he is not in any real danger of you walking out - he may exploit those feelings of trust and return to his old means of control. The rage can return. Just be on the lookout for this pattern, at any rate.

I do hope the new therapist and addition assistance will help change your lives for the better.

Hugs to you!


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## 3lilchunklins (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm proud if you! I know whatever decision you made would not be easy. Hopefully this was the low point needed in order to turn around, change, and walk on in a different direction. I wish you all the best!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> I would only caution you that if he is abusive, you may notice a cycle. As in, when he realizes he is losing a fight, and that you might leave - he may become extremely contrite, and super nice for an extended period. And then, when he feels you trust him enough again - that he is not in any real danger of you walking out - he may exploit those feelings of trust and return to his old means of control. The rage can return. Just be on the lookout for this pattern, at any rate.
> 
> Hugs to you!


This is good advice.

And you may want to read the book "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft.

And the next time he does something as bad as sit on your daughter, call 911. He needs real, immediate consequences for his actions. I know you love him. I know you want to stay married. I won't fault you for that. But continue to put your children first, regardless of whether or not your marriage works out. Best wishes.


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## blessedbyblues (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm relieved that he acknowledges his responsibility in this situation. Personal accountability and integrity are key in fixing such a problem. He's out of control when what he wants most is to be in control. It seriously wouldn't hurt to get him a 24 hour adrenal saliva test with the doc to find out if some of this behavior can be managed physically. If it can, that may reassure him that he can get through this and FIX IT, because, let's face it, the stereotypes exist for a reason and men like to fix things.

I married the first time as a teenager, and whenever my ex wasn't smoking pot or was popping pills, he was angry with me, rude to me, pressuring me for sex, and breaking my belongings. I swore I would never be with a man with a substance abuse problem again. Famous last words! My DH began drinking more and more heavily after LO was born (to medicate a few problems, not just regular new-baby-stress), until it became a very real, very frightening threat to not only our marriage but to our lives. He quit drinking completely and he's been as good as gold since, but we are still working, working, working all the time to repair the damage he did. After he quit drinking, DH foundered and moped for a while until I realized he needed to be told how to fix everything he'd nearly destroyed. It might have been hard for me (the admitted control freak) to avoid policing him in that situation had I not been at the take it or leave it stage with our marriage, and I think that served to snap him back to reality more than anything. I now tell him specifically what I need from him, rather than telling him what not to do (because he knows that: DON'T DRINK), and he now talks about how he feels. We pray together at times and never hesitate to call for a timeout or to raise an issue so that things neither escalate to an unhealthy point nor fester.

DH has never hurt LO but he has unintentionally scared the bejesus out of him; DH grew up in a very loud family, whereas LO and I are usually quiet unless we are in a social situation or playing. This is the kind of normal family stuff, I guess, but DH has really put the fear of God in LO when DH was merely laughing or expressing excitement. I have a congenital adrenal disorder so I startle easily and my fear response has always been anger (my mother was almost constantly verbally and physically abusive, so...), and I would usually yell at DH for startling us. It is hell to feel out of control of your own body and reactions, especially when that is not the true self inside you. Since I've not only been treating my adrenals but also purposely measuring my own response to things and meditating daily, we have greater peace in the house and I feel better and more in control. I'm not a yeller or an angry person, and for the past couple of years, I feel more like myself than I ever have. We are grain free and all organic (Paleo but for our raw milk and cheese), and our clean diet helps us maintain balanced minds.

I know my situation is different from yours, but I hope that you can see that your DH can take control of his hurt and fear and anger. Find out what he is so afraid of and you can halve the anger, I bet. If you are intent on staying with him and parenting with him (and I understand the myriad reasons why you would), then he has to be forthcoming with the mess and tangle within him. If he truly doesn't know, then he maybe needs to take a TO and find out. Please maintain an exit strategy and change it as your situation or location changes. There is no harm in being prepared for something that never happens, but you probably cannot afford the risk of being unprepared if ever SHTF.


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

I was in a marriage like that too...and I discovered that his "anger issues" were deeper than I or any counselor could fix, that he was a dangerous man, a narcissist and a textbook sociopath (as you say about your husband, no one else would believe the awful way he acts - scratch that - IS!!!). I wish to God I had seen the light much sooner and left him before my oldest's permanent memories could include his actions. FYI: DS1's therapist told me she would call CPS on me if I left the boys alone with him for any length of time. Period.

Sounds like your situation would warrant the same warning...DO NOT TRUST HIM WITH THE CHILDREN!!! If he loses it and tries to smother them when you're in the next room, what could he do (or has he done) when you're not around to stop him?! And withdrawing and being cold is not "holding it together" - it's just a quieter form of abuse and manipulation.

A few words of advice:

Don't try to parent your husband - he is an adult, and chooses his own actions. If he loses it, it's not your fault or your responsibility to "fix" it - just tell him as calmly as possible that his actions are unacceptable, and quietly take the children away from the situation. Like to your mom's house, or a friend's, or a shelter if you have to.

Document the abusive behavior, call the police even if you think you're overreacting, even after the fact. I always thought "No, it's not really abuse, I'm just upset" but now I see things for what they were, and my instincts were right all along. A manipulative, abusive man can twist your brain into second-guessing yourself, thinking you're the one at fault somehow...it's one of the big red flags of an abuser. DO NOT LET HIM DO THAT TO YOU OR YOUR KIDS!! He already had you warped into putting him as #1 before the kids came along, and that's the only way a man like that can see himself, as #1...he will never change. Just read the post where you said: "In the end, he became completely contrite instead of defensive." That is another red flag, another part of their cycle...once they see your strength and resolve, that YOU know they are in the wrong and won't stand for it, they try being contrite and promising change. As others have said here, it lasts until they feel you won't really leave, and the nastiness returns until you reach that point again. It's up to YOU how many times the cycle continues, if at all.

Making it on your own is MUCH easier than you and your children living scared. Easier for them, and you. They'll be much better off. Just be patient with them through the adjustment period, they will understand in much less time than you might think.

Once you have a history of calling the police about his behavior, and you say he's already been in therapy for anger issues, that gives you full legal rights to demand supervised visits and take sole custody of your children when you divorce. My sons' school has a copy of the court order and they would call the police if my ex tried to pick them up. It's that serious.

Sorry to be so blunt if you're still on the fence, but having been there myself, I see what you're still trying to come to terms with...and I get it, it's hard. It takes great strength to live in an abusive situation, and it always takes even greater strength to do what's right and get out. For me, once my spirit was freed, I felt like a bird out of a cage, and could never go back. I suddenly realized how strong I truly am - and I pray for you and your kids you find the same realization. Much love and luck to you, mama!


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

Pickle,

I am too aware of the cycle of abuse that you cite from relationships much earlier in my life. Thank you for the validation. I am watching for that because I am not going to go for lull-into-complacency BS for a second. I have made mental plans about what I need to do to make sure that there are not emotional/financial barriers to leaving if that needs to happen. I have until now been a little stuck in my own fairytale expectations and the slow water-torture-like experience it is to be around someone who is low-level angry most of the time to see where I need to stand.

I get it.


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *A&A*
> 
> This is good advice.
> 
> ...


There is no question that if anything even remotely similar to this happens again, we are leaving. Period. Doing the documentation and calling CPS was the best advice that I got. Even though I keep feeling shame and dread about calling CPS, also I feel stronger because if I do have to leave I am not as afraid of him getting the kids alone as I was---one of the main reasons that I was afraid to leave.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Eko-mom,

You seem to have a level head on your shoulders, and know from past experience where your boundaries need to lay in order to protect your kids. I would have sought anonymous input in your shoes, too. There is nothing wrong with questioning huge choices however you need to.

Do consider the option of cognitive behavioral therapy for your hubbeh; excellent for anger management issues (I know from personal experience). And yes, your therapist doesn't seem on top of things. I think your husband needs individual therapy. Maybe he is angry at you; too bad. He's gotta learn to express himself like an adult with an individual therapist.

I am relieved that your husband is turning out to be cooperative. I really, really hope he is sincere. He sounds like my husband in that he can be tamed a bit once he knows the other person is just 'not havin' it'. Hopefully you can ensure his aggression doesn't turn into something passive and more sinister by continuing your marital therapy with a more proactive therapist while he does CBT.

Wishing you all the best!


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## eko_mom (Jan 30, 2007)

I agree he needs individual therapy. I am familiar with CBT. I do think that might help him. Our therapist was not on top of her game. She brought out some things, pointed out his anger, but he's really hard to take to the mat.

I looked up the narcissism that some people here mentioned. Reading about that has been an eye opener. I don't think he's a full-blown narcissist, but for sure there are some things he does that are right on that I have been seeing as my fault for letting them bother me. I have been letting him take me down with his little sarcasms about me and big assertions that the problems in our marriage do not stem from his actions but my reactions, or personality, sensitivity.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I just wanted to include my favorite quote from Maya Angelou: "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time."


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## my3beasties (Feb 10, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *A&A*
> 
> I just wanted to include my favorite quote from Maya Angelou: "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time."


It was this exact quote I saw written on a whiteboard at my son's school, that finally made me realize my ex needed to go! Great one, A&A!


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

People are obviously divided on the issue here and feel that his behavior towards your daughter was extreme enough to break up your family. So I want to clarify: I don't, based on what you have said, but only you can make that decision. I don't feel he had any intent to suffocate your daughter or do harm; but I think he showed extreme emotional immaturity and while alarming and in need of intervention, I find it really sad that people think THAT is reason enough to take your kids away from their father. I'm like: really? If it were me, and I had the option and financial ability, I would definitely try living separately for a little while until he was in therapy, but to abandon a marriage is so final and the harm of this to a child is much more extreme when there is still concrete hope in staying together.

People are flawed, they make mistakes, and that incident does not necessarily indicate the kind of person he is as a whole.

If he does anything like that again, you leave. At the same time, if you are going to stay, he definitely needs some hope that he can be a good father, feeling like a villan/monster will not work going forward since he clearly feels inadequate already. Limit his interactions to ones in which he can thrive and build himself up. I know that is extremely hard to do with a busy life but if you love this man and want the marriage to work it sounds like he is going to need a little bit of tough hand-holding.

Again, I wish you and your fam all the best.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demeter888*
> 
> I don't feel he had any intent to suffocate your daughter or do harm; but I think he showed extreme emotional immaturity and while alarming and in need of intervention, I find it really sad that people think THAT is reason enough to take your kids away from their father. I'm like: really? If it were me, and I had the option and financial ability, I would definitely try living separately for a little while until he was in therapy, but to abandon a marriage is so final and the harm of this to a child is much more extreme when there is still concrete hope in staying together.


Obviously, many people here, especially those who grew up with abusive parents, disagree that it is bad to take children away from a father who is abusive.

I think you, and many others on this board, have an unrealistic view of divorce. If you're a mom who has come to the conclusion that she's married to an abuser, you do not automatically walk away with the children who then never see their father. Divorce means a child custody arrangement that may result in unsupervised time for the other parent. You're all acting like she can walk away from this guy on a whim and have her children be either safe from, or deprived from, time with their dad. That's not accurate.

It seems like it's much more usual for parents of young children who divorce to have an ongoing parenting relationship. It's difficult to "abandon a marriage" when you have young children.

Divorce isn't the worst thing in the world. It's difficult and a loss, but it's not the automatic extreme harm to children that you're painting here. Really the scariest thing for this mom about divorce is the same thing that's scary about parenting with her husband now, while they're married. If you're right that he pretended to suffocate their child as an act of "extreme immaturity," that doesn't make it an easier decision to leave the kids with him than if it was intentionally controlling and abusive.

Divorce is one of several possible and apparently imperfect solutions to this very difficult situation.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> Obviously, many people here, especially those who grew up with abusive parents, disagree that it is bad to take children away from a father who is abusive.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. I don't think divorce is the worst thing that can happen to a child. I think being in an abusive relationship is much worse, physical or mental. I think living in a house where the parents don't love each other and are not healthy for each other is way worse than divorce. It teaches a child that you should accept misery. That love hurts. That you cannot change your situation.

Divorce may be exactly what is needed for everyone involved. Sometimes everyone needs space to heal, even the abuser. Abuse is like an addiction, you need time to step away and withdraw. That means everyone involved. It can create a space where healing becomes possible.

I wish the best for this family. What a tough situation. I applaud this mother's strength.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
> 
> Obviously, many people here, especially those who grew up with abusive parents, disagree that it is bad to take children away from a father who is abusive.
> 
> ...


I think you are grossly misunderstanding me, so I will clarify once more.

I come from a divorced family, but that is besides the point. I never said it is bad it take a child away from an abuser (???). And finally, I don't agree that her husband is an "abuser" because just because some of his behavior is abusive. Labels are useless and kneejerk reactions are just as bad as delayed reactions when there is very likely no imminent danger. I don't think "getting out" is the best answer, particularly now that more information has come to light. I do think divorce is traumatic for children, as is staying in an abusive home. The question is which is worse in this particular case.

And as for my unrealistic view of divorce, it's just silly to say that without a specific reference. I'm as familiar with divorce as anyone needs to be to know that IF abuse were the reason for having one in the first place, it would not in any way ensure the abuse would end unless there was extreme separation between the kids and abusive parent. The issue of a loveless or toxic marriage is not one the OP has chosen to address, therefore I must assume it isn't that.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Eko_Mom, thinking of you. Hope you (and your kids) are ok.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Same, Eko. I hope your new resolutions are turning out even better than expected. Lots of love and support!


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## starsmagick (Jun 29, 2013)

Omg - first of all - he SAT on her?? Poor thing must have felt crushed physically - 2ndly- he could have KiLLeD her!! You are So not overreacting. Your job, first and for most is to protect your children. If you feel in your gut this isn't going to change - LISTEN! Therapy is a good start, but for the interim, maybe move in with a friend or your parents? This sounds REALLY dangerous. The kids were just playing.


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## earthmama4 (Oct 13, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> I would only caution you that if he is abusive, you may notice a cycle. As in, when he realizes he is losing a fight, and that you might leave - he may become extremely contrite, and super nice for an extended period. And then, when he feels you trust him enough again - that he is not in any real danger of you walking out - he may exploit those feelings of trust and return to his old means of control. The rage can return. Just be on the lookout for this pattern, at any rate.


This is important. I identified that my XH was abusive instead of just "angry" or "grumpy" or "a big jerk" around year 5 of our marriage...but it took me an additional 3.5 years of going through that cycle before I recognized it as a cycle that was not going to change. What saved me was keeping a journal. I would write it all down, good and bad. When I would later go back and read I could see the same things were happening again and again. My hope would have kept me blind had I not done this. I second the book by Lundy Bancroft. It really crystalizes your ability to tell true change in an abuser from another part of the cycle. Super hard to do when you live inside it! The book is excellent beyond words and extremely validating for women whose husbands abusive behavior manifests in a non-stereotypical way.

I also wanted to add that I completely understand staying for fear that your XH will shared custody and in our case, he did and it was horrible. No one took my fears seriously and the lawyers just encouraged us to mediate and settle. If I had pushed for it being brought before the judge, I think he would have gotten supervised visits from the beginning. Instead it took another 5 years post divorce to collect enough evidence that he was continuing abuse of the children on visitations. It was mostly emotional so that is harder to prove. Finally when DS was 13 there was a severe injury (XH broke his nose) and CPS prosecuted and recommended supervised visits. He couldn't take that level of control over him. After 2 visits he bailed and we haven't seen him since. So if you do end up leaving, do whatever you can to make sure that those concerns are taken seriously, they are heard by the judge, and that things stay closely supervised for a long, long time.


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