# Do you GD your husband or partner? Be honest...lol



## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Okay, I am partially being tounge in cheek, but on a serious note, ever since exploring GD and techniques we plan on using with our baby (coming soon in May) I have had SO much success with my husband!!

Okay, before I get flamed...let me just preface...
NO, I don't feel I have to "parent" my spouse...YES, we are equal, NO, I don't "discipline" him...NO, I don't control him...etc..and even before the GD thing, we had a really healthy, happy relationship for the most part.

Honestly though, through using some GD techniques though, some of the things that used to irk me or annoy me or whatever have almost disappeared!! Maybe it is because I believe hubby has mild Aspergers and sometimes has trouble with focus etc, or maybe it is because deep down a lot of men are still kind of um, *childish* (not to generalize)...or maybe just because GD is a great philosophy even with adults---but whatever, it is working!

Like for instance, say hubby telle me he is going to do the dishes...well being his personality, whether Aspergers or whatever...he is the type to like get distracted by about 23049723094732 other things, not do the dishes until 4 days later, I wind up getting frustrated and pissed and we wind up with the whole tearful, upset " YOU SAID YOU WOULD DO THE DISHES AND YOU DIDN'T AND IT HURTS WHEN YOU SAY YOU WILL DO SOMETHING AND YOU DON'T!!" conversation...
...but seriously, using GD has nixxed that....like, if I see him being distracted a whole lot etc...instead of being frustrated or whatever, I will calmly say something like---
...sweetie, remember when you said you would do the dishes? Would you mind taking a few minutes to do them, and then going back to your (whatever it is)....and he totally does!!! It is weird, how the whole "when we do this then we can do that" works on even 35 year olds..
Now as I said, of COURSE I treat him like an adult, so I never word it like that, and I modify of course, but the general principle and technique is the same and it is awesome!

Or like, redirection works too lol...like, he will go to tear something up in a weird spell of all the sudden say, wanting to drill or build or whatever in the middle of a room I just cleaned or whatever....so I will redirect and offer alternatives "maybe you would have more room if you did that outside" instead of like, "DO YOU HAVE TO FREAKING BUILD STUFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LIVING ROOM!!"

Anyway, I know it sounds funny, but it works! I have changed a bit, he has changed...and I am sure that it has to do with modifying some of the techniques I learned here!

Anyone else?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

UGH, if anyone tried to "handle" me in this manner, I'd be headed straight for divorce court. So NO not in this way.

but then again, I don't GD my kids that way either.

I wouldn't tell them I was "hurt" if they didn't do what I asked, and i wouldn't tell my DH either.

but I'd tell them both I DID NOT LIKE it when they failed to do something that was their responsbility.

I don't use redirection on anyone over 2 years of age.

I also think that while I do GD my kids, I have no problem, unlike some here, making the rules and limiting negotiation.

With DH I do negotatiate.

And my kids know, what my parents (who used what i consider GD) told me:Rank has its privleges and its obligations.

In other words I knew that I would have more rights (and responsibilites) as i grew older). That never seemed unfair to me. And it does not seem unfair to me now. And my kids seem to feel the same way. If they don't, they are free to raise their kids differently.


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## taramt (Feb 26, 2005)

I also have a partner who makes commitments and then becomes distracted by his other obligations. For a long time we/I have been working on ways of ensuring consistent follow through. I think it is important not only for his 5 yo daughter to see him take responsibility for himself, not to mention the impact it has on our relationship when I feel like I need to nag, or do whatever needs to be done, and then resent him for it! There are too many good moments in our life together for me to be wasting energy on resentment and martyrdom. (Also not good for the new one in my belly).
I like the ideas you put forth there.... Might try to implement them myself!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

yeah - but I started doing that before we had a kid. I think it was the beginnings of NVC.

Like when he'd get all pissed and in a huff I'd say "It's looks like you're having a hard time this morning. Would you like a hug? We are a team, is there anything I can do."

I'm trying to get better at NVC, because the last addresses his needs, but not my own. But on the plus side, he started doing the same for me when I got in a tizzy!


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## taramt (Feb 26, 2005)

I think there are alot of communication techniques that every couple uses to negotiate the gentle terrain of their relationship. Sometimes one technique is more workable than another, and of course one never wants to sound condescending or patronizing. At the end of the day, what I try to keep in mind is that the family that my partner and I are building together is my most important priority, and one thing which I will always draw strength from. Given that, I try (and don't always succeed!) to ensure that my communications come from a place of love and respect. We all get distracted from our obligations from time to time, and when it becomes an issue for one partner, it needs to be dealt with in an effective manner so as not to fester. If these methods work, great. If they disempower, then don't use them.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Golly gee, most of my post was in jest, and to the poster who said she would be headed for divorce, I am SO very proud and impressed with your rock solid heart of steel and the fact that it never hurts your feelings when someone doesn't follow through on a commitment, and it never hurts your feelings at all one bit when you percieve that what someone else is doing is more important to them then a commitment they made to you (no matter how small)....
Wow, it must take an extremely strong person to not let that hurt your feelings. I only strive in my own life to be that mature.

Of course, it hurts my feelings more with my husband than it would with a small child because with a child I know they probably don't fully understand the whole follow through thing, or they probably don't fully grasp the results of their actions or inactions, and they probably don't have the self control or whatever to tear themselves away from something else...so I probably wouldn't say to a child that they *hurt me* but at the same time, if something my child did hurt me or my feelings, I am not going to breeze over it and bury my feelings....I see NOTHING wrong with saying to someone, child or otherwise, "hitting hurts people" ...or "when you say mean things to mommy, it hurts her feelings and that is not nice. Lets think of a way we can express ourselves without being hurtful"....and if you think it is SO wrong to express natural human feelings to people, children or otherwise, I imagine many things would "send you to divorce court"...

you don't use redirection with anyone over 2?? Wow, I am impressed. That o course, would mean if you were the boss of a shop for example and the co-workers were talking and gossiping, you would NEVER even THINK of saying something along the lines of..."Hey guys, I don't mind of you talk but would you mind folding some sweaters while you are at it?" in a light-hearted way---guess what, that is redirection...similarly, you are saying that if you were at someone's house for dinner and you didn't like the meal or whatever and they asked you how it was, you wouldn't say something like, "The meal was good but I LOVED dessert especially, can you give me the recipe!!" ..to kind of REDIRECT away from the dinner you didn't like etc....

Gee...that "no redirection over 2" rule really must be hard in certain situations!

Fortunately, my husband and I have a marriage where we can both be honest and upfront about our feelings, good or bad, and express them to eachother when we are hurt, upset, angry etc...
I only spoke in terms of MYSELF because I am the only person who can control ME...my husband has his own methods of "handling" me as you say, as everyone has with their spouses...it is not "handling" as much as techniques the other knows will effectively calm the other down/get desired results/express themselves/avoid hurt feelings etc...

If you don't think your spouse uses techniques to communicate with you, especially in adversarial situations where he/she knows he/she will be able to get a result---like the ones I mentioned above, you are living in a dream world I am afraid...a magical world where your feelings are never hurt or you feel you can't express them to your husband when he lets you down (even in a small way)...

good luck with that!

Furthermore, judging by your comments regarding "people with rank" and you and hubby having higher "rank"...you imply that your children aren''t equal family members. That I think is the fundamental difference here....
meaning, by your comments, YOU seem to view gentle discipline techniques as coming DOWN to a child's "level" or whatever, whereas, compared to traditional techniques, I feel GD is bring children UP to a level most adults respect eachother with....but you don't see children as having the same "rights" you said it yourself...


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Oh the lessons I have learned from "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk" by Adele Faber.

I think there is many things we can learn in GD about adult human relationship.

I also think redirecting children last longer than two.

I have been "redirected" by my husband when I was not thinking thru things. We laugh about it. I have done him that way. It is part of being a team and working together.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

It sounds like manipulation to me. But then lots of stuff in this forum sound like gentle manipulation to me. If my dh said he would do something and then didn't it wouldn't occur to me to remind him to please do it (nagging), to redirect, or use my feelings against him. I honestly wouldn't be hurt by it. It isn't because i have a heart of steal or am such a strong person. it is because I get busy and forget to do stuff. So if he says he will wash the dishes and doesn't, I simply do them. He is an adult. He doesn't need to be taught by me. I am not his mother. I am however my childrens mother and it is my job to teach them. And if he gets distracted it is because he has a lot on his mind, a lot of pressure at work, is too busy being a dad, whatever. Creating stress in my marriage isn't something I have time for. I would rather just do it with a happy heart and go on loving my man. I guess I have no expectaitions on him to help with the house work either which is why it is so easy for me when he doesn't follow through. When he does I am totally blessed. When he doesn't , well, it was nice enough of him to even offer.

Anyway, I would never presume to be in charge of my dh in such a way that I felt I should teach him how to be, redirect him, or even subtly manipulate him.

however if I do have anything to say to him I hope I always speak gentely and respectfully but openly to him.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I get the feeling that people responding to this thread are taking the OP from either one POV or the polar opposite.

As soon as I read the thread title I was like "yeah, I do that". But I was thinking of GD from the perspective of not yelling, not hitting, not labelling. We make "when you do X it makes me feel Y" statements. Not "you're bad for doing/saying X".

In fact, a huge inspiration for me was the Imago couples theory that DH and I learned while engaged. It's all about communication when you are dealing with marriage. But so many principles apply to children, too. First, you cannot HEAR when you are busy defending yourself emotionally. Discussions must take place in an environment where you are emotionally safe. Same applies to children. Validation is a huge part of it. Let your partner know that, based on what they told you, their reaction makes sense to you. GD emphasizes the importance of validating children's emotions too. In fact, Harville Hendrix, founder of Imago, wrote a parenting book because the message was so obviously applicable to children and families.

So yes, I'd say that so much of what GD is, is beneficial to couples and works with couples. if there's an issue that is bugging me i will tell him in a non-judgemental and non-accusational way and together we'll come up with a workable plan. i hope to do that with my kids when they are a bit older. but I don't tell him "we don't do X in our family". I don't redirect him when he's headed for trouble, though if I see him doing something with the kids that I feel is unsafe I might step in and make a gentle suggestion (how about we play ride 'em cowboy on the bed so if someone falls they don't get hurt?).

So I think yes, GD and healthy spousal relationships share many things in common. But of course there are also areas where they differ. The above replies address one or the other, seems to me.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I agree with Piglet. I have long felt that gentle discipline is a way of relating to ALL humans (and non-humans







), not just your children. It just makes sense to treat others with dignity, respect and empathy.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I told dh the name of this thread and he said "oh yeah, I'd like some GD. Spank me here oh baby baby." Seriously though... he thinks it's a wonderful idea and so do I.

What is discipline? It's the means by which someone grows into her or his own best self. Are we ever there? Nope. I see life as a continual journey of self-improvement. I see dh as my partner on this journey and I would be disappointed if he didn't want to encourage me to be my best. To me this means more than just respecting me for who I am. If dh wants to talk with me about some of my behaviours or try to teach me something or share ideas about ethics or etiquette I'm definitely up for that. Ditto with him.

I consider Simon (my almost 1 year old son) as an equal to myself and my dh. I speak with him with respect. Gd includes being age appropriate. I wouldn't talk to dh as though he were a 1 year old (though there are plenty of exceptions to this -- "I love you" is "I love you"), but I would talk with him with the same respect and openness that I give to ds. Is it insulting to use gd with our children once they are adults? Absolutely not. If it is, you aren't conceiving the same thing that I am conceiving. I see gd as living with consistent respect for each other -- this takes discipline for some of us -- and the creative and healthy use of conflict resolution skills when the need arises (which also requires discipline).

In truth, I'm far, far, far better at following gd with ds and want to do more of it with dh. I'm too often short with him or just not giving him enough respect or doing enough to figure out where he is coming from.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

[email protected] some of the dishonesty in this thread...particularly the bit about
"I would do it with a happy heart" and comments like " I never manipulate anyone"...

Wow, either we are dealing with perfect people here, or some people aren't being honest...um, okay, so if your partner constantly lets you down with respect to things he says he will do or things he is irresponsible about, you just "do it anyway with a happy heart?" ..sounds like manipulation alright...lol...

I am not saying my husband constantly lets me down by any means...in most respects we have a very happy, loving, equal relationship...but one of his household things is the dishes, we have agreed upon that, I do my share of stuff, whatever...so like, after about 3, 4 times of crap piling up for days in the sink to the point it is starting to smell because he is too busy or distracted or spaces out on doing them or is just lazy....I am expected to whistle happily and do them anyway because I would not DARE "manipulate" him by saying...."um sweetie, it kind of hurts my feelings when you don't do what you say you are going to do because I rarely if ever do that to you and I feel I deserve the same respect" etc....wow, what a manipulative b*tch I am!!!

Freaking PLEASE...

Some people here seem to be of the school where gentle discipline is somehow insulting to adults...Unfortunately it seems those same people are still of the school where discipline means punishment and shame and control...no matter how much they front like they don't think that....
Discipline comes from the word "disciple" which means student. I am sometimes the teacher, I am sometimes the student...in almost any given situation...
I don't presume to know how other people's marriages work, but I will say this.
The day I am tip-toeing around my husband and "happily" being taken for granted because I am too scared to "manipulate" him by telling him how I feel or why I think it is not respectful when he does or doesn't do things we have agreed upon or that he OFFERED to do....then we are in some trouble...

Some of you pick and choose parts of my posts you want to read or interpert them how YOU want to to suit your own agendas which is crap. I NEVER said I am like, "sweetie, when you are done doing the dishes, you MAY watch TV" or any NONSENSE like that....but what in the world is wrong with like, um, if someone is spreading their stuff ALL over the living room I just spent like an hour cleaning, gently suggesting an alternative we can both live with i.e. sweetie, would you mind taking that to the back porch because I just cleaned and besides, there is more light out there and more room"...my God, what a complete manipulative, controlling, "mommy" of me!!!!!

If some of you have relationships where you feel you have to compromise your own feelings/needs/efforts/ etc in order to "keep peace" or to not seem "controlling"... I pity you and the fact that you have a relationship that seems like it is built on sand...

Of course, as I mentioned, I speak of myself because my hubby has his own way so I don't presume to speak for him...however, in the SAME situation I mentioned above, he would have NO problem saying, "Oh sweetie, I am doing it in here because (whatever made sense)...and I would not hesitate to say, "Oh! I'm sorry, I thought it was something you could do outside!" or whatever it may be....

...but by all means, continue to "happily" do everything "with love" because your hubby doesn't "feel" like it....that is completely your right!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
It sounds like manipulation to me. But then lots of stuff in this forum sound like gentle manipulation to me. If my dh said he would do something and then didn't it wouldn't occur to me to remind him to please do it (nagging), to redirect, or use my feelings against him. I honestly wouldn't be hurt by it. It isn't because i have a heart of steal or am such a strong person. it is because I get busy and forget to do stuff. So if he says he will wash the dishes and doesn't, I simply do them. He is an adult. He doesn't need to be taught by me. I am not his mother. I am however my childrens mother and it is my job to teach them. And if he gets distracted it is because he has a lot on his mind, a lot of pressure at work, is too busy being a dad, whatever. Creating stress in my marriage isn't something I have time for. I would rather just do it with a happy heart and go on loving my man. I guess I have no expectaitions on him to help with the house work either which is why it is so easy for me when he doesn't follow through. When he does I am totally blessed. When he doesn't , well, it was nice enough of him to even offer.

Anyway, I would never presume to be in charge of my dh in such a way that I felt I should teach him how to be, redirect him, or even subtly manipulate him.

however if I do have anything to say to him I hope I always speak gentely and respectfully but openly to him.


ITA!

And sorry, OVB, I was not trying to be rude, but ME, I would feel "handled" by your techniques. I could not live with someone who would treat me that way and I wouldn't treat my dh that way.

My DH and I have know each other our entire lives and have been together for more than 20 years.

Our relationship is pretty solid.

I truly don't feel "hurt" by his not doing something I asked him. I might be annoyed but "hurt" suggests that I feel this is something he is doing to me personally. Just don't feel that way

I would feel hurt if he was rude to me. BUT...

I also am not "hurt" by my kids not doing something or even speaking rudely. I guess I view children as saying things that they really don't mean especially to their parents.

You are right I definetly view GD as coming "down" to children's level. I understand others here don't view it this way. And no, I don't view my kids as having the same rights as me in that our kids do not have an equal voice in decision making about: Where we live, how we spend our money, what the house rules are etc....


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:

You are right I definetly view GD as coming "down" to children's level. I understand others here don't view it this way. And no, I don't view my kids as having the same rights as me
See, that is the main difference between us then...because children may not have the same "privledges" (i.e. can't knock back a couple beers to relax) but they have ALL the same rights in my opinion.

Whenever you feel like you have control over someone else, you are not practicing GD in my opinion, even if you aren't spanking or whatever. Anyone, my husband and child alike, will have the benefit of knowing where I stand on things, even if I have hurt feelings. They deserve that repsect, as I deserve to know where I stand with them, which believe me, my poor, controlled, mothered husband (what a LAUGH) let's me know when I upset/hurt/annoy/anger him...

this thread, among others, serve to remind me just how good I have it, and I guess I am in the wrong in still not realizing that some relationships are just kind of come from a dishonest place where people feel they can't be real or completely honest or admit that they have things they can teach their partner and things they can learn from them.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

For starters I think we have very different expectations on our dh. I do not think he owes me anything, even if he promised on his knees. I expect him to not leave and not cheat. Otherwise it is between him and God.

when he offers something I choose to focus on the fact that he cared enough to even offer not wether or not the task gets done and if it gets to my specifications. And if he does a half assed job I go over and give his half ass a sqeeze and tell him thanks.

A happy heart is a choice and I choose to find something to be happy about my dh in all situation rather than keep my list of all his wrongs and let downs (tried that, wasn't impressed with the outcome, and in the end I was the one who suffered the most). Occasionally he goes in for the kill (much less often since I have stopped putting so much pressure on him to keep his promises, trying to change him and teach him how to be a good husband) and that hurts. And let me tell you, not doing "his share" of the house work doesn't even come close. That is hurt, not him slacking off according to what I wish he would do.

As for thinking GD is just for kids, I don't have the right to discipline anyone but my kids unless they ask for my help. It is my job to teach my children. It is not my job to teach my husband. If he asks (and he does ask more now that I have stopped trying to force it on him regardless of how gently i was doing it - in the end it still was saying I know more than you and I am above you and you need to learn by my perfect example) I will share but only if he asks for my input. My children however, it is my job to protect, teach, guide and help them become good adults. Not control but to help and teach. With my dh neither is my job.

Call me crazy. but I am happy, my dh is happier and choosing to be thankful for what i do have and choosing to have a happy heart sure beats the hell out of always looking for a way to get my dh to do what I want. what he said he would do or what I think he should do.


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## FreeSpiritMama (Oct 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
I agree with Piglet. I have long felt that gentle discipline is a way of relating to ALL humans (and non-humans







), not just your children. It just makes sense to treat others with dignity, respect and empathy.

I can't say it any better than this


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I try! But, I am MUCH more tolerant and patient with my kid than with my husband.







:

But, I do think the tools that I've learned in GD totally apply to all people. I would try to teach a foreign guest the same cultural mores that I try to teach my son.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I think it is only natural to learn positive communication through parenting books and have it leak out to all parts of our life. Positive communication is beneficial for any relationship, not just children.

My DH and I communicate better in part because we're learning better communication tools for the sake of our kids. It is only natural.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Well, this has been an enlightening psychological experiment for me, though unintentional.

Her eis what I learned. Even in a situation where people claim to be AP and GD and all that, there are still people who think children deserve less than adults and are in a different class of people (read:inferior)...and that makes me sad.

In other words, based on someone of the comments, specifically ones along the lines of accusing me of treating someone, namely my husband "like a child"...I can only derive that these people see that as a huge insult and that children should be treated somehow differenlty than the rest of us.

In other words, I feel that children deserve love, respect, courtesy, understanding, compassion, a say in decision making, and a voice in the family. In addition, I believe children deserve to be able to express their feelings, whatever they may be, at all times, and deserve the same respect and knowledge that they will be given the same courtesy. I feel children deserve help when they ask for it, and deserve the right to offer help to you if they feel/want to participate in that process. I feel that children benefit and deserve to know where boundries lie, whether it is boundries THEY set for themselves and their bodies and space, which should be respected, or whether it is the boundries YOU set for your body, yourself, your space. I feel that children deserve to be listened to, and to be respected in their person, space, possessions and feelings. Similarly, I feel children benefit from learning to listen, and to respect you in your person, space, possessions and feelings...I believe chilren love to learn and have a desire to learn from people they percieve to have skills they don't, and they deserve to be taught. Similarly, I believe children LOVE to be teachers to, and should be encouraged to teach others what they know, and to offer their perspective and knowledge with others.

So, you see, I don't get offended when people say I am "treating someone like a child"...I only begin to take things a bit personally when by their words and comments and tone, I know they feel that having that opinion is the biggest insult to my husband or any other person I treat that way---which as I mentioned, leads me to the conclusion that these people feel children deserve less than anyone else--otherwise, it wouldn't be an insult kwim?

As far as the posters commments regarding her marriage. If all you feel your husband owes you is fidelity and to stick around, then I do feel sorry for you. My husband took vows to me, in front of family, friends, God, as I to him. Those vows, promises, lifelong ideals, included, love, cherish, honor, respect, forsake all others (not just sexually)...and since we wrote our own vows too, a bunch of other things we both swore before God and state, friends and family, and eachother, to uphold...at all costs...I imagine if all he said to me was that we wouldn't cheat or leave, then I guess I wouldn't felt he "owed" me much either.

I am human and realistic, I know no one's perfect and both he and I have made mistakes or broken vows (very minor infractions)....however, the ideals we strive for, apply to BOTH of us, so no, I am not comfortable with just doing everything with "a happy heart" while he sits and does nothing....just as he wouldn't be too jazzed doing that for me either----it shows lack of respect and it is BOTH our jobs to help the other uphold their vows, as well as on our own...

In this path of life, we strive to walk side by side, but sometimes the path gets narrow and one has to walk ahead, one has to walk behind for a little bit...sometimes it is me, sometimes it is him, but we are still holding eachother's hand when we have to do that.

The problems begin though, when the person walking ahead for a bit, begins feeling like they have to drag the person along behind them, as if the person isn't walking on their own..that is how I begin to feel when dishes pile up for 5 days when hubby offered/told me/agreed whatever to do them...it is common respect....

You say that you are happy with him just "caring" enough to offer even if he doesn't do it??? Woah. Um, similarly, would you be happy if you were drowning and he was standing by the side of the pool offering to help but didn't do a thing? Extreme example I know, but just illustrating that in our home, actions speak louder than words....
I don't keep a running tally of wrongs and I think it was a bit rude to imply that. I do however, expect a certain level of treatment in my marriage, as does my husband and for the most part we both do a great job, but once in a while there are minor issues---all I was saying in terms of GD, that it has helped those minor issues to approach them calmly, kindly, offering an alternative, suggesting rather than demanding etc......instead of just getting upset and frustrated etc...

We are having a daughter in May, and it is ESPECIALLY important to me as well as my husband that we raise someone who feels deserving of equal treatment and respect. Provided she chooses marriage, we want to raise our daughter to expect more out of her husband/partner than just that they will not leave or sleep with other people.

I only hope that our daughter grows up to treat people "like children"...because due to my personal opinion of how children deserve to be treated, she will do just fine.


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

I only hope that our daughter grows up to treat people "like children"...because due to my personal opinion of how children deserve to be treated, she will do just fine.
Yep, this and Piglet's wide words sum it up for me- GD (and TCS in our case as well) are for everyone. I have a little handmade note with that on the fridge door. B/c essentially i think GD is a gentle, respectful way of relating to people in a manner that honors where THEY (and you) are "at." So why wouldn't I extend that to an adult? What, GD stops when my son's 18? Or 15?

But I'm just a freak who thinks children have the same rights as adults, HATES to think of myself as an authoritity figure "over" ds or anyone else and can't imagine why redirection (except in a blatantly coercive manner) is bad for people over 2









The things I do with my son, like not yelling or hitting or using my age/size/"parent status" to coerce him, respecting his body and his wants and needs, etc....why wouldn't I do that with dp? I certainly expect dp to treat me that way :LOL Sure, I believe dp has more "tools" to express his wants and needs than ds does, but just because he is older doesn't mean his feeling aren' worth anything (or that mine aren't either).

The way I see it, dp and my relationship is a model for ds, his first model of how adults interact. I'd like it to be a positive one.

I have also used GD-style stuff with college students I've taught in our (GASP) democractic classroom and it worked great. The best part was when they started to treat each other with more dignity too.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Ok...I just couldn't resist...

I try (very hard somedays) to make sure that I deal with my daughter and my husband in a gentle way. I'm not a Christian...but I follow the Golden Rule (some days better than others)...Treat others as you'd want to be treated.

I don't think that my husband "owes" me anything (as one poster said) but I also don't think I need to submit. We are equals in this relationship, PERIOD. We each try to bring 110% to the table...and if one of us doesn't quite get there...we support each other. We bring each other up. It's a partnership, not a dictatorship.

MANY times I have to be "redirected" or I have to "redirect". There are different ways of doing this...and saying that you NEVER do this to your spouse...well...I have a hard time believing that. But...that's beside the point.

We should BE so lucky to deal with everyone we come into contact with gently and respectfully, not to mention to be dealt with as such...that's what GD is all about. Discipline means teaching...so...teach gently.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
The problems begin though, when the person walking ahead for a bit, begins feeling like they have to drag the person along behind them, as if the person isn't walking on their own..that is how I begin to feel when dishes pile up for 5 days when hubby offered/told me/agreed whatever to do them...it is common respect....

This quote reveals a lot about your attitude toward your dh. It makes sense that you feel like you have to discipline him and teach him how to be because you feel like you are so far ahead of him in areas. Pehaps the reason he has let you go ahead on the road is because he feels he can't keep up anyway. I would never let the dishes and the bitterness in my heart pile up for 5 days. how much easier to blesss my dh by just doing the dishes and thanking him for all the times he has done them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
You say that you are happy with him just "caring" enough to offer even if he doesn't do it??? Woah. Um, similarly, would you be happy if you were drowning and he was standing by the side of the pool offering to help but didn't do a thing? Extreme example I know, but just illustrating that in our home, actions speak louder than words....

Well this is just silliness. No one gets hurt from my dh deciding he doesn't have time to do dishes. Unless of course we choose to be hurt. We just have a few more dishes to do. And if I did drown I guess I wouldn't have much to say on the matter either









Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
I don't keep a running tally of wrongs and I think it was a bit rude to imply that.

I wasn't implying that you did this. This is what I did. And many women do it. They may not keep a list in a notebookv but they build it up in thier heart. and bring it up over and over again if not thier dh then to anyone who listen. And again I am not saying you do this but I feel strongly about it beause it was the single most hurtful thing to my marriage. My list of wrongs and all the all the ways he could improve.

The reason I don't expect much from my dh at this point is because after 10 years of me beating him down and constantly telling him I had all the answers for our marriage, especially parenting and putting all my expectations on him of what kind of person, father and husband he needed to be he was only sticking around for the kids. He was done. My words said "I love you", My actions said something different. My actions said, I want you to be something you are not. I did that to him by constantly thinking I could change him, demand things of him, always striving to make him better like he had landed on this planet a few short months earlier. Who am I to think I can teach him how to be. Who am I to think I know so much more about parenting, house keeping, supporting a family etc . . .when he did do stuff I would try and teach him to do it right (as in my way), and it didn't matter how gentle I was or what special words I used (because I did take what I learned hear and apply it on him) he got the messege loud and clear. I was not happy with him and the way he did things. So why bother.

He is a great guy and even when he hated being married to me he still supported us and took care of us and loved the chidlren (althoguh he didn't parent much because he got sick of my "suggestions" and began to believe he really didn't have any good thoughts on this topic). He works so many hours. He comes home and wants to spend time with is girls and with me. And really weather or not he does a little house work, even if he promised, isn't a big enough deal for me to step in and start trying to teach him to keep his word, to do it right, to keep his vows. It isn't a big enough deal for me to waste emotional energy being upset or bitter or even trying to change him when I can so easily change my attitudes, expectations and actions and love where him where he is at. It isn't my job to change him any more than it is his job to be always telling me how to be a better house keeper, mother, or anything else. And yes I would be justified reminding him that he broke a promise, that he is slacking off or blathering on about how much I am dissappointed in him and his actions but it might leave me standing here with nothing more than a pocket full of justification and bitterness and perhaps a dh who has done the dishes but will be careful not to offer again. Or I can just say, well at least he realizes that I do do a lot of work around here and go about my business happy that I have a dh who works hard and loves his family and who treats us well and that things will continue to get better when he no longer feels like I am trying to control them and that I think he is capable without my constant help and supervision.

And I do think it is different with children. I think children are great and that we should indeed treat them with love and respect and gentelness and I think I do that very well.. I have a lot of tolerance for thier childishness and shortcomings that are a product of lack of learning and lack of experiance. They are children after all. That is why they have a mother and a father. to help them grow, and learn and safely gain and interpret experiances until they have accumlated wisdom and knowledge of thier own..

I think alot of what passes for gentle discipline here though are word games and subtle ways we make ourselves feel good about manipulation and control and trickery and bribery through the rose colored glasses of the right words and the right tone of voice. We call it coopertion or "listening" when what we really want is for them to obey and do as we say. We call it redirecting when what we are really doing is controlling and manipulating sweetly. I see it all the time here. When I want my children to do something. I simply tell them "I want you to do this." When I want them stop something I tell them "Stop doing that". It is so much easier for me and they aren't left guessing what exactly it is I am trying to get to in a round about kind of way. And I give my dh the same respect, by being direct and accepting his answer without nagging, whining, manipulateing or plotting how I an get him to to o what I want. I treat my children with the same respect. The only difference that it is my job to teach my children and so i don't feel bad, telling them how to do something right/better and expecting them to learn. But my dh is an adult and if he chooses not to learn and be a lump or anything else that is his business not mine. And I might be justified in getting in a tizzy and leaving but that is not what I would choose to do because I value my marriage over being right, justified, helped or anything else.

disclaimer - my dh rocks my world and is the hardest worker I know. any problems in my marriage were caused by my pissy attitude towards my perfectly fine dh and now that I have a clue things are getting better and all those little things that he dug in his heels in over are not an issue for either of us because I have stopped making it an issue. He is surprisingly more helpful and more willing to do all those things I desired once I stopped making them my focus and made him my focus.

But I will be not back to this thread because I have obviously taken a mole hill and made into a mountian. And I apologize for that. I totally went off on a tangent. It just makes me so sad to see women making making the same mistakes I did and thinking, just like me, they are own the road to the perfect marriage with all thier insights, intellegence and hard work on thier husbands when in reality they are slowly chipping away at thier thier husbands self worth and the strength of his commitment to them by acting so superior to them and by treating like they are as inexperianced as a 5 year and lack the wisdom and knowledge and abilities of a 30 year old.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Wow, if you are half as rude and presumptuous towards your husband as you are to strangers on the internet, I imagine you don't have as perfect of a marriage as you claim.

Please, work on your own belief that in order for a woman to have a happy marriage and to keep *peace* she has to be completely subservient to her husband in every way and lower her expectations of treatment before you begin freely commenting on the state of other women and their marriages.

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that there is NOTHING that I am more knowledgable in, no subjects in which I have more insight, no situations I am cabable of handing better than my husband? It seems so by your comments above. Of course I am, JUST as much as I accept and welcome the fact that there are subjects my husband is more knowledgable in than me, some insights he has that I may lack, some solutions he can offer that will serve everyone better and so on....It is foolish and ridiculous to suggest that I should take a "yes sir" attitude with my husband at all costs so I don't ever happen to forget my "place" and make him feel like he is never capable of doing anything hurtful or annoying or whatever. For instance, I am much better at being on time than he is, but he has expressed he really wants to be on time places, so I try to help him in that by gentle reminders of the time, or saving him time by making his coffee or whatever to shave a few minutes off etc...whatever...similarly, my husband is MUCH better than I am at following directions and paying attention to detail and helps me out by making helpful suggestions or reminding me of a detail I missed, or say, proofreading an email and suggesting the altering of a sentence to get my point across better etc.... Those are the same things you would assist a child with right? I would hope so? But it goes back to the fact that you don't think children are equal people, that they are inferior in some way, so of course that is probably uber insulting to you...

It is kind of shocking to hear someone in the year 2005 speak like a Good Housekeeping article from 1955. Seriously, are your ONLY expectations of your husband that he doesn't cheat or leave you??? If I were hiring for a job or something, I would not expect ANYONE to hire me if all my resume said was "I won't steal money"....I am in NO WAY SAYING my husband is my employee, though you will probably jump on that even though I am clearly saying the contrary. I AM however, saying that this is the person who I am choosing to trust my life with, our home with, our children with, my heart with, live every single day with, grow old with, trust to take care of me if I became ill or got Alheimers or something, someone who makes (or help makes) decisions for the family, etc and so on down the line----more importantly, someone who CHOSE of their own free will as an ADULT, to have ME be that person for him and solidified that WILLINGLY in front of God, friends, family, the State, me, etc....and you mean to tell me all I ever have hope to expect is that he doesn't screw around or leave me? That is laughable. I guess I just think more of myself.

Look, I made the same vows too. I NEVER would ask my husband to do anything that I wouldn't be willing to do myself in any way. As it regards to children, of course my expectations of children are less than my husband if for no other reason than the fact that they had absolutely NO choice in the matter of who they had to live with for at least 18 years (among more obvious reasons)...whereas my husband did, and made his choice as a grown man. So there is a distinction there.

There is no point going over this again and again....for no other reason that, people have to agree on at least the simple definitions of things in order to debate them.
You feel children are inferior beings, therefor are insulted when someone uses techniques they would use towards a child, on anyone else.
I diagree, I feel children are equal in every way that matters.

Similarly, you feel all you ever hope to expect from your husband is that he doesn't screw around or leave you. You didn't for example, mention smacking or whatever, I would hope you would *expect* your husband not to smack you, right? I am just clarifying because you made it clear that ALL you expected was for him not to cheat or leave....

I expect more.
I imagine my husband would no sooner be happy living with you than your husband would be living with me if you want the truth. Your husband would probably think I was some uppidy b*tch who had too much to say and didn't know my place. My husband would probably think you were a doormat and would feel more pressure to be strong enough for the both of you and miss the strong, independant, loving, funny, vegetarian feminist activist who doesn't let anyone walk all over her or him (which he has benefited from)....so it is probably a good thing we are all where we wanna be...

Good luck to you!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Ignoring the bonfire for a moment ....

I definately find GD and respect helpful in my marriage. Neither dh or I see each other as the other's parent, nor do we expect to change each other.

Having said that, I believe marriage is a spiritual journey and as partners you do your best to uplift the other person. Without being attatched to the consequence.

I guess I should put this in context - both dh and I are highly distractable. We just are! Either one of us is likely to say, forget to do the dishes. Both of us do well with respectful reminders about things we forget. I am just as distractable as dh, but I also keep lists, so I'm more likely to "remember" and remind him. Not because I'm his mom or his boss. Because I have a (slight) strength in this department. Emphasize slight. :LOL He has other strengths. No one is truly ahead or behind the other, but in specific areas we have strengths and weaknesses. He often reminds me to get crabby in my tone of voice. Not as nag, but because I get easily fired up and I appreciate being reminded that I can choose to calm it down.

The key is that all of this is done with love and respect.

He is his person and I am mine, but human beings are interconnected. We are never responsible for another's choices, but we can choose OUR words and actions with someone else's best interest in mind.

Er, I'm rambling.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

lilyka, I think I understand what you're saying. Many women want to "make their husbands over" and the same traits that attracted them in the first place. And I agree that if you each give 60% and expect 40% you are doing great. So basically, I agree with you on the marriage thing. It's awesome that you have found out before it was too late and.. that you have an incredible, supportive husband. The truth is, husbands in general don't need much. If you love them, support them, want them and treat them with respect the vast majority will lay down their lives for you.

As in regards to children, I, too, OVB, find that there are many correlations between treating a partner in marriage and children. In fact, I would not object at all (I would in fat welcome it) if dh started treating me 100% GD. He already does a great job, but a few times his sarcasm and hurt ego get in the way. I find that by applying GD principles to him, it really helps our relationship. If I respect and love him as much as I love our children, how can I go wrong?

Cheers to all, and hope you two can resolve your differences because both have very valid points, just not on the same wavelength.

PS: No way do I believe that any woman should be submissive to her husband, in the same way that no man should be submissive to his wife. It's an equal partnership with a balance of needs.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I definitely GD my dh and find it has helped me communicate with him much more effectively. (He's been GDing me for years it seems...I just needed some time to catch on.) In our house, I do the dishes always and he cleans the cats' litter box always. This is our agreement. If the dishes pile up for a few days, he doesn't do them, just as I don't clean the litter box if he forgets. And although I don't feel hurt if he forgets, I will gently remind him. I have even asked him before if he would like me to remind him every day when he gets home from work. He said yes. I did not do this to manipulate him but to help him. (It's much more work to clean up when one of the 4 cats goes on the floor instead of in the box.) A couple of years ago, I might have flown off the handle about it, but I have learned more EFFECTIVE ways of communicating.

I understood the quote about feeling as though you're dragging a person behind you as feeling like they're not carrying their weight, not doing their part, not working as part of a parnership (aka marriage.) This would hurt me and I would definitly try to communicate my feelings about it in a sensitive and loving way, not in an attempt to manipulate, but because in my experience my dh is much more open to hear what I am saying if he doesn't feel as though I am attacking him. I guess I figure if I said nothing I wouldn't be doing anything to help our relationship.

Maybe in this case gentle communication would have been a better term for the OP to use rather than GD? Although I think they're pretty much the same thing, I think it might have changed the context for some people. After all, when I discipline my child I do so by gently communicating with him, but I don't think of it as discipline when I communicate with my husband.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Sounds like some people here had read and are living by the dictates of The Subservient Wife or whatever that popular book is (the title is something along those lines). I've read much of it. It contains many positive insights, but the conclusions it reaches do not follow logically. If I ever teach a critical thinking class, I plan to use that text as an introduction to faulty reasoning.


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## kirei (Dec 2, 2004)

I just wanted to say that I think this was a great topic, and it really gave me something to think about!!


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

Being kind and considerate extends beyond the home... there is always a way to convey a problem and a solution without being mean and accusatory. That goes for neighbors, friends, clerks in stores, employees of the DMV, etc... aren't you more likely to be cooperative if someone is nice?


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## Kateana (Feb 2, 2005)

First of all, I guess I haven't been on MDC long enough to know all the abbreviations... what is TCS? and NVC?

As usual, I kindof have a lot to say, so this may get long... I'm going to start from the beginning...

OVB, I think I know what you were getting at with your OP. GD means, primarily, treating children (and in this case, DHs) with respect that you would give to (and want from) any other human being... I hope I'm getting you right here.







It sounds like you went from taking offence at his forgetfulness, to being understanding and treating him gentler than you would have, had you reacted with strong emotions. On top of that, I realize that your post was "mostly in jest".









That said, I would like to say that I also agree with the "opposing poster".







It just seems that you two are very different personalities with very different DHs. It seems that you both have ways that work well for you, and who can say that one is really better than the other. As you said, your DH probably wouldn't like her "methods", and vice versa. Regardless, you both seem like you are able to share your feelings with your DHs, in your own ways.

I guess I don't know how relevant this is, but: I see myself in a lot of different posts here... I also get my feeling hurt by things that really aren't directed at me. Sometimes I feel that things are neglected out of disrespect for me, whether that is the case or not. And I have also spent days getting bent out of shape about something that in hindsight wasn't really worth getting "in a tizzy" about. I have learned that my marriage is much happier when I choose my battles. There are things I need to let go, just as I would like my husband to let go of certain things (which he does much better than I do).

As far as what to expect of a spouse... I do think it is reasonable to expect more than fidelity and physical presence. At the same time, I think it is also reasonable to know that expectations are not always met, and being in a loving marriage thankfully means that forgiveness is useful in this case. I learned early in my marriage (and I have a lot more to learn, I'm sure of that) that some expectations can be harmful to a relationship. However, it seems to me that when a couple reaches an agreement as to who does what, there shouldn't be a problem when one person reminds the other, hopefully gently and with respect... or as you say, like you would with a child.







It seems appropriate. Personally, I think there is a good balance, and while I usually am a reminder (not always gently), I would love to be kind enough to just make up for my DHs lack once in awhile. (For the record, my DH is the one who picks up where I leave off... he does a lot of the housework, and he works full time... and yet I still find ways to bitch at him.







) <--- That actually brings me to another point... as for being in the position to "teach" my DH things... I guess I don't feel like it's the worst thing to do. I probably do it too much, maybe to the point of acting like I'm better than him. But at the same time, I would LOVE it if my DH would help me to be a better person once in awhile (BTW, I'm not talking about the day-to-day reminders here... more of things like we need to spend more wisely, or eat better, or just take better care of ourselves, show kindness to others more often, etc). I know I need help in a lot of areas, and I wish to God that he would help me be stronger in some areas. Instead, he feels that I am just fine how I am (I appreciate this, on a level), and doesn't want me to change. The thing that makes me sad is that I feel that, being in a partnership, we should "sharpen" each other, and make each other better. He sees it more as a happy co-existence. Hopefully we will come to some happy medium...

Hmmm... what else... Ah, yes. The subject of submission has come up. This is a fun one.







Some people think that submission is a bad thing, and shows weakness. Personally, I disagree, and at the same time, I have a hard time actually submitting to my DH. I believe that being in a marriage (and in particular, a Christian marriage) means submitting "one to another". I guess this goes along with what I said a second ago about sharpening each other, in a way. Maybe "submission"s bad rep comes from the misconception that it means "unquestioning obedience". We could probably all agree that there is no place in a marriage for that. But IMO, if a DH and DW submit to each other, they would both treat each other with kindness and respect that they both deserve, hence living out AP and GD beautifully, but in the context of marriage, not parenting... just MHO.

That's all I can think of for now... I'm sure we will be talking soon...


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

NVC = non-violent communication, which I am just starting to learn, explicitly. But I think my mom tried to do this a lot with us growing up.

http://www.cnvc.org/raisekds.htm

It really shouldn't be manipulative or condescending. It's about getting your own needs met while not telling the other person they are wrong.

Here's my favorite quote:

In parent workshops that I've done over the years, I've often started by dividing the group into two. I put one group in one room, and the other in a different room, and I give each group the task of writing down on a large paper a dialogue between themselves and another person in a conflict situation. I tell both groups what the conflict is. The
only difference is that I tell one group the other person is their child, and to the second group I say the other person is their neighbor.

Then we get back into a large group and we look at these different sheets of paper outlining the dialogue that the groups would have, in the one case thinking that the other person was their child, and in the other case, the neighbor. (And incidentally, I haven't allowed the groups to discuss with the other group who the person was in their situation, so that both groups think that the situation is the same.)

After they've had a chance to scan the written dialogues of both groups, I ask them if they can see a difference in terms of the degree of respect and compassion that was demonstrated. Every time I've done this, the group that was working on the situation with the other person being a child was seen as being less respectful and compassionate in their communication than the group that saw the other person as a neighbor. This painfully reveals to the people in these groups how easy it is to dehumanize someone by the simple process of simply thinking of him or her as "our child."

TCS = Taking Children Seriously and I don't know much more about it.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Misunderstood.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I feel that to anyone who feels GD is disrespectful either has got the concept way off, or whoever claimed to be Gd'ing them didn't get it either...

I think the fundemental goes back to whether you see children as equal people. I personally do. I think children should be afforded EVERY SINGLE human right we have, and I treat them accordingly.

Now, it is important to distinguish rights from privledges. Driving is not a right, it is a privledge. Other than there being an age requirement by law, you have to pass a written test, driving test etc...
...however, right to personal space, respect of body, right to have a voice, a say in the decision-making process of your life, right to feel comfortable in your home, right to speak up when you disagree, right to have an opinion....yes, right to even refuse a bath if you want to---those are all fundemental rights I think children should have...

...of course we are their parents, so it is a bit different, I can only gently suggest my husband take a shower if he smells...but it never gets that far, as he is an adult with adult reasoning and no opposition to bathing....so that is where children need and should be treated with a little more allowance in consideration of the fact that they haven't grasped that yet different times....
....point is, I think a lot of disagreement occur with regard to child rearing, starting from the point of defining terms....the people who feel children are equals almost always fundamentally disagree with the people who feel children are "below" them and are in need of control....no matter how nice the people are and how much they like to veil that opinion....so I think that is the root in most discussions of this matter....


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Misunderstood.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I don't think it is the only way of course not, and like I said, it probably would have been better to say "gentle communication" instead of discipline

...kind of along the same lines as I doon't feel you can be eating a steak and claiming to be an animal lover, which I see all the time--but hey, people do...all the time....but whole different post....LOL


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Tried to explain.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

So, take what you like from that. To me if someone sees GD as disrespectful, whether adult or child alike, someone is doing something wrong...as I feel if excecuted properly, GD is VERY respectful...

...but I am becoming redundant. If you cooked a meal for me that tasted like crap, and asked me how it was, and I GENTLY used my personal DISCIPLINE to REDIRECT from the fact that it was crap and focused on the dessert which I liked, and asked for the recipe...you would find that disrespectful? Seriously? Because that is GD with me....

You seem to forget that the "discipline" in GD goes both ways---usually it is the parents who have to have more personal discipline in order to discipline (or teach) their children without disrespect, control, or whatever...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm going to try one more time. I think redirection falls within the realm of GD. Like the example you gave, think redirecting a child to do a messy project outside because you just cleaned the house, by highlighting how much more space there is outside falls within the realm of GD.

I think the ideal situation would be to just ask them if they would mind doing the project outside because you just cleaned.

I see this as the difference with being factual and being truthful. It is a fact that there is more room outside but the truth is that you don't want the living room messed up.

This may seem like a small thing but when it's happening frequently there can become some major honesty, directness issues.

So, now&#8230;with my parents. My father may have redirected my food choices as a child but, as an adult, I would feel that is disrespectful of him to not just be direct and honest with me.

I think we will do well with each other as well when we are more direct and honest. Don't you think?


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I completely agree, but sometimes you have to alter your behavior/words to anyone, not just children, based on their personality, their sensetivity, their perception and in an attempt not to disrespect them or hurt their feelings....
...for instance, say I am trying to lose weight....and my husband knows this...and I have even asked him for help... (arbitrary example but go with it for a second)...

Say he sees me lurking around the kitchen right....and I open the freezer for the ice cream, and I am still debating, that is clear, because I am fighting it (weakly)....okay, well there is a whole different debate of whether someone's husband should say something or has the right to say anything etc, but let's just go with it....

If he did say something, being honest and direct would be : Honey, I thought you were trying to lose weight!!! You can't eat ice cream and lose weight!! Show some willpower baby, you can do it!!! --or a variation of that....okay, that would piss me off, even though he is being honest and direct and all that and not even mean about it..to me, it is not gentle, that is just my personality, maybe someone else wouldn't bat an eye or whatever, but I am sensetive about it...

Okay, using the same situation, lurking around the freezer etc....it would be SO much gentler and SO much more effective and would still get the point across if my hubby gently REDIRECTED me and gently reminded me to use my personal discipline by saying something like, "hey sweetie, those strawberries in there only have a couple days before they go bad, I bet they would be awesome on some yogurt...."
Know what I mean? Duh, I mean, I would still kind of know the point because I am an adult, but it is just a more gentle way of approaching things and treating people...

That is all I am saying...direct and honest is great, and with people I have different relationships with, say my sister for example, I wouldn't get offended if she said the whole "stay out of that ice cream girl!!" jokingly or whatever, because for whatever reason, it would be taken differently than if hubby had the nerve to say that (he wouldn't!)

But you have to alter the way you relate to people I think, depending on so many factors...


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
I feel that to anyone who feels GD is disrespectful either has got the concept way off, or whoever claimed to be Gd'ing them didn't get it either...

Yeah, I'm not sure that I understand how GD is disrespectful, either.









Here's what I'm thinking...If my kid leaves toys out, I might say, "Hey Buddy, let's get these toys cleaned up so no one steps on them and breaks them." If he said, "I can't. I'm working on painting right now." I wouldn't punish him. I wouldn't yell that cleaning up is the rule and if he doesn't do it I will throw the toys away. I'd suggest we do it after the painting or just do it for him. My GD job is to help him understand why leaving toys all over the floor is not a good idea. He's little, he doesn't have the foresight to see the consequences of stuff getting broken. The other part of my job is to help him find tools--like asking the person who's not busy to do it for them or seeing if later works OK.

If my husband and I were doing yard work and he left some tools outside I might say, "Hon, can you make sure those get put in the shed? It's supposed to rain tonight." If my husband said, "I can't right now...I'm undressed and getting in the shower." I wouldn't punish him. I wouldn't yell at him or try to shame him. I might say, "OK, well it's not supposed to rain until later, do you want me to do it now or do you mind doing it after your shower?" He gets the concepts of consequences, but maybe he didn't know it was going to rain. He's also got some issues about finishing projects/putting things away when you're done (some ADD, I suspect). Again, my job is to be his partner and help him. How is that manipulating or being disrespectful?

If in either of those scenarios, the other people were rude or even if I was feeling grouchy, I could freely express my feelings without shaming or being disrespectful ('could' is such the operative word, here!







). "Hey, I'm tired, too. And I really don't want to have to clean up, either--it's making me feel very grouchy to have to do this without help."

I don't think either person in my family would feel manipulated, handled, tricked, etc. using the techniques above. I wouldn't if someone talked to me that way.

For me, GD is about assuming people are doing the best they can, and if they are having problems, figuring out what the root of that problem is and helping them get through it.

I've had plenty of conversations with my dad about financial planning, home buying, car buying, etc. He gives me his opinion and experience to help guide me through the situation. Tools I otherwise didn't have. I don't feel disrespected by his input and direction. I consider that GD--gentle guidance, loving teaching.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I do think we have a semantics issue here.

To me "redirection" means trying to change the course of ACTION by another person, without letting them know what you are doing.

So when a baby is trying to reach for the electric socket you can redirect her by gently picking her up and saying "Hey look over here at the pretty lights" The idea is that the baby then forgets she ever wanted to touch the light socket.

This is FINE for a baby. But as children mature, I don't think it is right. For me (and I have been parenting for over a decade), I think you have to say:

"The light socket is dangerous. It could hurt you. We NEVER touch the light socket." (in a calm, serious voice).

Thus rather than trying to redirect what she was trying to do, and making her forget about the dangerous socket I needed to focus her on the socket and teach her what would happen if she touched it.

In my mind, the "redirection" of Gentle Discipline is not related to "redirecting a conversation". One has nothing to do with the other for me. The idea that I am "disciplining" a friend by talking about the dessert rather than the meal, jsut does not make sense to me. But I think this may be a matter of semantics.

In your original example, OVB, however, you talked about when your dh wanted to build something in the living room you'd say "wouldn't you have more room if you did that outside" when what you were really feeling was that you did not want him to build in the living room.

I don't feel comfortable doing this with my dh or even my children. I would say to my kids "You can't do that in here, its too messy". With my dh I'd say "I don't want you doing that in here, its too messy." He is free to negotate this though. My children are not. In our home, the adults do make these rules.

As a matter of semantics, it seems to me that what you believe in is closer to TCS (taking chilldren seriously) than GD.

For me GD means not punishing, shaming or bribing my kids.

In other words, while I do not think my children have a right to decide the rules in our home, I do not punish them if they dont' follow those rules.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I didn't say you were "disciplining" your friend in that situation, I said you were using your personal discipline to redirect, to be gentle about the cooking, to be respectful...the "discipline" goes both ways in GD to me...for instance, a child might be like "your dinner was G R O S S!!!!" to that same friend, because they haven't learned personal discipline and self control yet, and really shouldn't be faulted for it, but obvioulsy it should be worked on or "taught" that you really shouldn't tell someone their dinner sucked or whatever...but I would do the same with my husband, like I would expect my husband not to be like "your dinner sucked" and if he had the nerve to, I would TOTALLY speak to him about it...albeit in a respectful way (I would try anywau) and try to maybe offer some suggestions as to how he could have gotten his point across better...that is GD folks, but it all goes back to whether you see children as equals or not...in both situations I would have handled it privately, I would not have said anything to a child or hubby to shame them or embarrass them in the presence of other people etc, they both deserve that respect, but they would both hear about it, whether it was by a 3 year old or a 35 year old, however, the 3 year old of course, does not have the personal discipline yet so I would treat it a bit differently, than someone who I expect has the personal discipline to be more gentle....

Maybe it is semantics, and I should get into TCS...as that has been suggested lol


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)




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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I apologize...again, I am sure your parents are wonderful people, but I should probably use personal examples...so I will

I love my mom greatly, we are VERY close and she is AWESOME and I would do almost anything for her...however, I can admit she made A LOT of mistakes growing up in the way she um, well, "disciplined" us....that doesn't in any way detract from my love for her or how wonderful of a person she is, but for whatever reason, she didn't have the tools, patience, etc to treat us in the way I plan to treat my daughter---now, does that make her a bad mom? Absolutely not...however, she would disagree, she thought she "disciplined" us just fine and the proof of that is that all her kids are "upstanding" citizens who are "normal" and nice, etc...
Anyway, all I was suggesting is that it is my personal opinion that if someone feels disrespected or similar if their parents practiced GD on them even as adults (to my understanding and definition of GD)...that I don't feel what they practiced was GD....that is my personal opinion, and I stick by it...
...however, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I have some residual self control issues admittedly and sometimes it is difficult for me to stay calm when I get frustrated or feel misunderstood etc...
So I do apologize sincerely.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Having just read this post in one sitting, it seems to me that everyone AGREES that both children and adults deserve respect.
I think many just feel that the techniques they use with thier partners may be a little different than what they use with thier children. I agree that children deserve as much respect as adults, but what is age appropriate for a child IS different than with an adult.
I have a feeling OVB that you may too, once you have children


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Oh, I KNEW that would come up!!

It is so lovely, not to mention completely disrespectful, to completely discount someone's opinions, life experience, research, thoughts, etc based on the fact that someone "doesn't have children"...the whole "you'll see" attitude pisses me off and offends me to no end. Incidentally, people use that same arguement when convincing me that spanking is the way to go! "You'll seeee...."

I never said EVER that you speak to, deal with, whatever, an adult the same way you do with a child...in fact, many of my posts say just the contrary in terms of maturity level, grasp on concepts and on self control, etc....so to suggest that I implied I would use toddler techniques on an adult is kind of offensive imo...

With all do respect, I DO have a child, she just happens to still be inside of me, my husband and I will be welcoming her in May, and I am quite confident she will soon appreciate all the reading, research, learning, re-enforcement of my position and the other techniques I tried to learn before she was even born!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*

It is so lovely, not to mention completely disrespectful, to completely discount someone's opinions, life experience, research, thoughts, etc based on the fact that someone "doesn't have children"...the whole "you'll see" attitude pisses me off and offends me to no end. Incidentally, people use that same arguement when convincing me that spanking is the way to go! "You'll seeee...."

*I never said "you'll see!" I think that your attitude about/ respect for children is fabulous. Your daughter is very lucky! However, I also know that it is very easy to say exactly what you will do when x,y,z happens NOW, but when this little person comes out, it isn't always as simple as it seems to you now. I agree with AP, GD, etc.. 1000%. I know it works, I have 3 awsome children to prove it- BUT nothing happend exactly the way I thought it would before I actually had them. I'm definalty not saying your not going to use GD once the baby is actually here, it's not all as easy as it sounds.*

I never said EVER that you speak to, deal with, whatever, an adult the same way you do with a child...in fact, many of my posts say just the contrary in terms of maturity level, grasp on concepts and on self control, etc....so to suggest that I implied I would use toddler techniques on an adult is kind of offensive imo...
*
It seems a few times you did mention that you thought people who spoke differntly to children were "talking down" to them, and not giving children the full respect they deserve.*

With all do respect, I DO have a child, she just happens to still be inside of me, my husband and I will be welcoming her in May, and I am quite confident she will soon appreciate all the reading, research, learning, re-enforcement of my position and the other techniques I tried to learn before she was even born!

*I'm sure she will too!*


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

OVB, are you having a bad day? You really seem to be on the attack here, and it doesn't seem in line with other posts I have seen from you, or with the gentleness you are saying everyone- child and adult- is worthy of.

Mothering is, despite our commonalities, a diverse group of women. We are all coming from different religious/spiritual/moral/social/cultural backgrounds. Gentle discipline tends to be more easily defined by what it is NOT- spanking, yelling, physical punishment, humiliation- than by what it is.
E

Quote:

ffective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
I dare say there are mothers here who would find Peggy O' Mara's suggestion to grab a child and make him sit down to be manipulative.

To answer your original question, I do not take it upon myself to discipline or teach my husband anything. I do use techniques I have used in gentle discipline- mainly active listening and respectful communication- in our relationship.

Finally, I will say that yes, you are already a mother, and I have no doubt you will be a dynamic one. That said, it is difficult to accept parenting advice from someone who has not yet actively parented. It would be difficult for me to accept advice on getting over the loss of a baby from someone who had never experienced it, or advice on how to live as a pastor's spouse from someone whose husband worked a 9 to 5 job, or advice on breastfeeding from someone who never breastfed. I didn't hire a doula who had no children of her own. Likewise, there are a miriad of things that I have read about, but have not actively experienced, and so I would not presume to tell others how to do it. Some things, you can do that with. I was a music major and taught instruments I was not proficient in playing, and I've never been a bass but have taken one on in voice lessons. In other things, it doesn't transfer so well.

Annette


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Well sorry I got defensive, I guess I just feel way misunderstood, like people are thinking I am talking to my husband like:

We don't build things in the house. We build things outside. Look at the pretty lights *pat on head* type thing, which is so far from the truth...

You're wrong though, I DO know exactly what I will do with my daughter, however, I never claimed I wouldn't make mistakes in excecution or in matters of self control on my part (like I never said I am never going to yell, in 18 years I am sure I will raise my voice once at least... know what I mean?) but as a rule, I don't plan on it....

I guess I just see my daughter no differenly than any other person I love intensely. She will have all the same rights as any other member of the family, me and hubby included. Of course there will have to be some "rules" as it relates to safety, privledges etc---i.e....you can't cook unsupervised at 4, it is dangerous...type things, but in most everything else, she will have a definate say and definate rights....if not every single "privledge" we have i.e. no, you can't have a beer with Daddy, that is not a right....but it is your right to get a drink if you are thirsty, even if it is at 4 am....know what I mean?

I just have to realize that people don't feel the same way often, even in forums like MDC...the people who deep down feel children need to be controlled and the like still outweigh the ones who don't, no matter how veiled that may seem...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
I just have to realize that people don't feel the same way often, even in forums like MDC...the people who deep down feel children need to be controlled and the like still outweigh the ones who don't, no matter how veiled that may seem...

And I would say that there is middle ground here that is being missed.

My three-year-odl daughter often wakes up around 4 (in our bed) and wakes up her daddy, telling him to get her a drink. Sure she has the right to have a drink. But that doesn't mean we have to get it. There's a nightlight in the bathroom and a cup in her basket. She doesn't want to get up. Neither do we. She fusses a little, we all go back to sleep, and she must not have wanted the drink that badly because she never does get out of bed to get it. We knew this is probably what will happen. Does that mean we are controlling her? My son is six and wets the bed several times a night. He is flat out not allowed to get a drink in the middle of the night. I do not want him sleeping in urine, he does not want to have to take a bath/shower every morning, and I do not have the time/energy to completely wash a whole new set of bedding every day. Am I infriging on his "right" to get a drink of water. Probably, but his rights aren't always his needs, and sometimes they interfere with my rights and needs. And sometimes I am just the grownup who gets to make the decision. If he really fussed about wanting a drink every night, we would bring it up at family meeting and brainstorm some alternatives. But even at family meetings, dh and I are still the ones ultimately "in charge".

And yet, we use gentle discipline, and I would take issue with anyone who would claim we don't.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Yeah, I am defensive today actually, thanks for asking.

It has always been much easier for me to deal with people who are blatant in their views...for example, it is easier for me to approach someone who admits to not giving a poop about animals, rather than someone who is eating a steak but claiming to be an animal lover...

similarly, and I am not speaking personally, just generally of what I am beginning to see of MDC, especially the GD forum, is that people give a whole lot of lip service to how gentle and respectful they are to their children etc, but by their veiled comments and apparent views that using the same kind of respect towards adults is somehow insulting or offensive, it is clear that some people still feel their children need to be controlled, and have less rights than they do, and instead of being little humans, are actually extentions of themselves that they feel they have to "keep in line" or whatever...
...unsettling to me...but oh well...

I have every confidence that I will be a fantastic mama no one needs to reassure me except maybe my husband who's opinion I regard very, very highly in that matter. I don't have to have a child sitting in front of me though, to realize that it is within MY self control and MY personal discipline to raise and teach her the way I feel is most healthy...so for you to suggest I am not qualified because I don't have her sitting in front of me is the same as suggesting that I will throw out all my beliefs, principles, plans, and actions in terms of parenting based on the fact that she might throw a tantrum or something...my parenting advice has to do with how I am going to behave, how I plan to act, how I plan to handle certain situations--with regard to feelings, that is different...I feel I am more than qualified to offer advice on how to get help, concern for health, sympathy in understanding pain, and support to someone who lost a baby, without presuming to know how the person feels, as I have never lost a baby....but I guess some people can't grasp those kinds of concepts...many people have a very black and white mentality towards things in this "you're with us or against us" society...

Anyway, whatever....people will always justify that what they are doing is right, even if it isn't, before considering change, even I am guilty of that in certain situations, but I guess it is more shocking and upsetting to see attitudes on MDC that reek of control and of children being lesser people etc, however veiled, by people who clearly present themselves otherwise...

Good luck to everyone

ETA: ....I agree you use GD techniques, but I pose this question...

...how would you feel if your Mom or Grandma or whatever had to be placed in a home because she couldn't take care of herself and they flat out refused to give her a drink in the middle of the night despite her being thirsty, because she wet the bed??

See, to me that would be SO wrong....and people would argue, but that is their job! Well, it is your job as a parent to treat your children in this way...I am not debating that if your daughter is able or whatever, and there is a nightlight, you shouldn't expect to be jumping up all night for something she is capable of doing, but with regard to your son, flat out refusing the drink because he wets the bed wouldn't be something I would do..does it make you a bad Mother, absolutely not!!! It is just not something I would do...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Good luck to you as well. I feel that we are not hearing one another, and it truly makes me sad.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
I just have to realize that people don't feel the same way often, even in forums like MDC...

That can be an eye opener! I remember when my firstborn was a baby, and I was (and still am!) soo passionate about certain pareting issues, I found likeminded people, and assumed that they would be on board with everything I was. ( well, if your breastfeeding, aren't you also co-sleeping, non vaxing, non-circing, gding, vegans?!!! :LOL )
It took a while to recognize and now appreciate the diversity among my peers. We are likeminded in some aspects, and not in others. We learn from eachother, we take what we can from eachother, and respectfully leave the rest behind.

I just want to say again that I think your daughter is very lucky. It's wonderful that you have taken so much thought and consideration to how you want your family to function. Your a wonderful mother already.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

thanks and I agree that like, someone can be AP and still not cloth diaper, or someone can be GD in general and still maybe use time outs or gentle "time-ins" or whatever, I accept that, I accept that people are different...heck, I am crunchy and AP as they come but I don't think we are going to CD because of several factors, from practical reasons, to money reasons, to reasons of just being plain lazy sometimes...I know people will poo poo that, and that's cool but I still believe we are AP...

However, some things are black and white...like the whole "animal lover" thing...You CANNOT claim to be an animal lover and eat meat....you absolutely can't, if you have any idea of the torture animals go through...can you be a dog lover? sure! a cat lover? absolutely! a ferret lover? SURE!! ...but don't dare say to me you are an animal lover as the blood from a steak is dripping down your chin....semantics, I know, but it is important to me...

Similarly with GD, I think you can employ GD techniques and not be GD, or maybe employ a couple of incidental things that might not exactly jive with GD and still be GD, but it is black or white to me in terms of, you either feel children are equal or not...plain and simple...you either think they have the same rights and deserve the same respects or not...you can't pick and choose...
That's all really.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I don't know if you are being really fair to ICM, OVB!

I dont' think you have to have felt disrespected as a child to say that you wouldn't want your parents to treat you that way now.

For example, let's take a very respectful approach a parent might take with a young child who wants to eat unhealthy foods.

Let's say they talk to the child about healthy foods and only purchase healthy foods for their home. They don't take their child out for unhealthy meals. Even if the child said they didn't want to talk about it, the parents might resepctfully say that "its important that we talk about this so that you can learn and understand."

To me that is fine. Someone raised that way could say, hey my parents were very respectful about my eating as a child. But now as an adult, I really don't want my parents "teaching" me about what foods I should eat. If I say "I don't want to hear about it, it would not be good for them to tell me that "its important for us to talk about it.

So that is just one example. I could definitely come up with lots of others!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
Similarly with GD, I think you can employ GD techniques and not be GD, or maybe employ a couple of incidental things that might not exactly jive with GD and still be GD, but it is black or white to me in terms of, you either feel children are equal or not...plain and simple...you either think they have the same rights and deserve the same respects or not...you can't pick and choose...
That's all really.


Well, I disagree.

Again its a matter of semantics. I have been parenting for almost 12 years and I have employed what most here would consider GD. No punishment, no unrelated consequences, no bribes etc...

What I don't do is TCS. That to me is about children having all the same rights as adults. To me they have many of the same BUT not all.

TCS beleives that they do. To me this is much more where your beliefs fit. You can't be TCS if you don't beleive these things. But you can IMO engage in GD.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:

*Even if the child said they didn't want to talk about it*, the parents might resepctfully say that "its important that we talk about this so that you can learn and understand."
see, that is where we differ, if they didn't want to talk about it, I would respect that. If I were providing healthy meals, buying healthy food, taking them to healthy places to eat etc...that would be enough in my opinion and I would respect their intelligence in having the capacity to learn what is healthy based on my modeling and general comments to my husband, friends etc regarding food...I would respect it if they didn't want to talk about it, and wouldn't talk about it...that is the difference.

To me, children have the same fundamental rights as adults. I, as an adult, would not have to talk about it if I didn't want to, neither do they....

Using an adult example, say you went to your parents house and all they had was healthy food and you wanted junk..even as an adult. It would be disrespectful for them to MAKE you eat it, and you would of course be free to bring your own fast food or whatever, but it would similarly be disrespectful of YOU to feel they HAD to provide junk just because you want it, despite them living a healthy lifestyle ..know what I mean? So GD works with adults to, as the parents can gently say, sweetie, you know we eat healthy here and had you wanted something else, you would have been more than welcome to bring something.... or whatever...


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

You are right though, I MUST get into this TCS stuff, as it has been suggested here more than once...ya learn something new every day!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
see, that is where we differ, if they didn't want to talk about it, I would respect that. If I were providing healthy meals, buying healthy food, taking them to healthy places to eat etc...that would be enough in my opinion and I would respect their intelligence in having the capacity to learn what is healthy based on my modeling and general comments to my husband, friends etc regarding food...I would respect it if they didn't want to talk about it, and wouldn't talk about it...that is the difference.

And you know what- that is great. Obviously that is a big part of your conception of gentle discipline. But to accuse others who WOULD pursue a conversation of NOT being GD seems to be a bit much...

What if you had a baby who refused to nurse? Would you just give up and give her a bottle? Or would you keep engaging her in the recommended "stealth tactics"- slipping a nipple in when they were half asleep, expressing some milk to get them latched on. Doesn't a baby have the right not to nurse? Shouldn't we trust the baby's innate intelligence that when she is hungry enough, she will choose to latch on?


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I love posed hypotheticals LOL I get them all the time, it's hilarious...

Um I do believe the scenario you mentioned is just a *tad* different, as most times, an infant is not intentionally or conciously *choosing* not to nurse...choice implies they know of another option....i.e. I know of bottles and I prefer formula, so I am refusing to nurse...type thing....

With the child choosing not to discuss healthy foods, are you honestly suggesting that they have no concept of what is healthy and what is junk? Maybe at like, 2 or something, but I imagine a 2 year old putting up a fight to not want to talk about something like that isn't that much of an issue, it is more like, at 2, they eat what is offered...not always, but like, they won't crawl to 7-11 and pick out a candy bar know what I mean...they may choose the candy bar over the apple if it is placed in front of them, but if you aren't placing it in front of them, it isn't an issue---the food issue above was being forced to talk about it if they chose not to, and I don't think they should be...

With regard to the nursing, of course I would try other tactics, because I feel that with an infant or small baby, it is not so much a choice they are making, but some issue that is preventing them from having what babies are born to have, which is um, breastmilk (can we agree on that?







poor latch, heavy letdown that chokes them, inability to effectively suck, too little or too much milk production, allergy that is coming through the breastmilk and about 230493728 other things
....but if I had a 1, 1-1/2 year old, and I was HELL BENT on extended nursing because I enjoy it, it is healthier, the WHO recommends it etc, and she is like, NOT having it at all and prefers table foods now and other milks (soy, almond, rice) whatever...no, I am not going to force the issue at all...in any capacity...


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

...but I do appreciate your condescending tone in suggesting I am the type to think a 3 month old or something is making the concious choice and excersising her "right" to not "want" to breastfeed...

Do I think a 1 or 2 year old can make that choice? Absolutely, and I would let them, because by 1-2 I have introduced table foods, other milks, limited juice etc, and she can excersise her preference and I would respect that...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
With regard to the nursing, of course I would try other tactics, because I feel that with an infant or small baby, it is not so much a choice they are making, but some issue that is preventing them from having what babies are born to have, which is um, breastmilk (can we agree on that?







poor latch, heavy letdown that chokes them, inability to effectively suck, too little or too much milk production, allergy that is coming through the breastmilk and about 230493728 other things

I'm glad this is amusing you. It beats having you angry.

When you make statements that say things should "always" happen, then I think you need to be prepared for a few hypotheticals, because there are always going to be situations that don't fit.

I have seen baby's refuse to nurse because they bit mom, and mom jumped and screamed, scaring them. That seems to be all about choice. I have seen nine-month-old babies refuse to nurse because they are in that "everything is fascinating stage" and they just don't want to be bothered. Many babies supposedly "self-wean" around 12 months because they are so busy, and the recommendation is generally to go into a quiet room, lie down, and nurse.

We only have healthy food choices accessable in our home. We don't force them to eat at meals, and if we have a dessert, it is not tied to how much they eat. They have access to certain foods whenever they want them. It's not really an issue here, thanks to things I have read and learned about on this board.

BUT since I am not in the other mamas shoes, I would not tell her she was not practicing gentle discipline just because she was making the choices for her family that are different from mine.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
...but I do appreciate your condescending tone in suggesting I am the type to think a 3 month old or something is making the concious choice and excersising her "right" to not "want" to breastfeed...

Do I think a 1 or 2 year old can make that choice? Absolutely, and I would let them, because by 1-2 I have introduced table foods, other milks, limited juice etc, and she can excersise her preference and I would respect that...

Is sarcasm any less condescending or disrespectful? Or do the equal rights for everyone extend only to those who agree with you?

ETA: For the record, I was not being condescening and I am sorry you took it that way. I honestly wanted to know if and where you drew lines in your theories of gentle discipline.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Equal rights, dunno, equal treatment from people who know better? Sure....
You weren't speaking in terms of a toddler being "facinated" (I don't believe) but maybe I am wrong...you were being condescending in suggesting that I would just pop a bottle in my baby's mouth if we were having a hard time nursing, implying she was "choosing" to exersise her "right" not to nurse...
...whatever...

You said:

"We only have healthy food choices accessable in our home. We don't force them to eat at meals, and if we have a dessert, it is not tied to how much they eat. They have access to certain foods whenever they want them. It's not really an issue here"

well hoorah! We agree on something! I have no problem with that whatsoever...(not that you were asking) but I completely agree with that...what I was disagreeing with, was the person forcing a conversation on their child that they didn't want to have...that would rarely happen in our home, not saying never, but for things like "we have to talk about healthy foods"....just wouldn't happen...I would respect that...I will attempt to teach my child through modeling etc, and it is redundant (and disrespectful) to sit and lecture when they clearly don't want to talk about it...

Anway, the whole refusing to give your son a drink because he wets to me is not cool, but to each their own....I wouldn't put up with that if the staff said that to me if my Mom was in a nursing home, despite her being thirsty....that would enrage me, but you obviously feel differenly...
It is not a matter of you feeling like a servant, I agree you shouldnt have to jump up for your daughter if she is capable of getting her own drink (I probably would though, at least once)....but with refusing to give your son a drink because he wets?

Whatever blows your skirt up though, not my kids, not my problem...not intending to sound harsh, but I shouldn't get so invested....so what you feel like, and so will I...let's leave it at that shall we?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

1. Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
I'm out of here.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Yes, and you are expected to follow the same.

"I'm outta here."

Me too.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
With the child choosing not to discuss healthy foods, are you honestly suggesting that they have no concept of what is healthy and what is junk? Maybe at like, 2 or something, but I imagine a 2 year old putting up a fight to not want to talk about something like that isn't that much of an issue, it is more like, at 2, they eat what is offered...not always, but like, they won't crawl to 7-11 and pick out a candy bar know what I mean...they may choose the candy bar over the apple if it is placed in front of them, but if you aren't placing it in front of them, it isn't an issue---the food issue above was being forced to talk about it if they chose not to, and I don't think they should be...

So, if at 2 your dd wants the mcdonalds hamburger she sees a friend eating at the park, will you allow this? What if she does not want to talk about it?

Do you really think that this might never happen?


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

"So, if at 2 your dd wants the mcdonalds hamburger she sees a friend eating at the park, will you allow this? What if she does not want to talk about it?

Do you really think that this might never happen?"

I can't control anyone and if, of her own free will, my child chooses to eat meat that is offered to her (at a friends house for example)...as much as I would not like it, I would have to accept it....however, it must be said that my child would probably never be at a friends house at 2 years old without me, or any friend who's mom wasn't a friend of mine (how do 2 year olds make friends autonomously??)..and the mom would know I prefer she not offer my daughter meat due to my moral convictions and I would hope that would be respected...

The arguement (imo) is not whether a child will ever *want* a food I am not comfortable with giving her....but rather, if she sees a child eating a hamburger at the park and says, at 2 "i want that"...of course, not ever having had it and having no concept of what it is, I would assume she was recognizing something she probably DID like--for example, we eat veggie burgers on buns around here that look, smell, somewhat taste "meat-like" and I would offer that....best of both worlds (imo)...now if my 2 year old had the capacity to say to me, "no mommy, this is a veggie burger, I know that other burger is cows meat and I want it, I don't wish to discuss it, I would like to try it!"...well, firstly I would sign her up for MENSA because she would be a genius!!!!...and secondly, I would cross that bridge when I came to it, after of course, getting over the shock that she could distingush the two, make a concious decision on it, and express a direct need or want for cow meat over the similar (though cruelty-free) alternative she is used to and enjoys...


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I had no idea how much this thread evolved! Anyway, OVB, I wanted to ask you this: in reference to this last example (McDonald's), why wouldn't you just say, "in our family we don't eat meat."? Isn't that just one of your family values?

Being sensitive to the fact that we can't hear each other's tones, please know that the above is written with no snarkiness or sarcasm. It is a true question.

I can almost guarantee the day will come when your child asks for McDonald's or something equally disgusting :LOL . It's a dreaded day :LOL but alas one that we all go through. My DD asked several times because she has friends who go. I've flat out told her that I can't allow her to eat it because it's not healthy but when she is grown up she can decide what she wants to do. I don't see this as opposed to my GD principles - do you think forbidding McDonald's runs contrary to GD?


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Oh sure, I would totally say that, but at the end of the day I can't control her (in terms of alone at a friends when she is older, she will decide either way on her own)

...at 2 maybe I wouldn't go all into it, I may mention it though a 2 year old may not grasp all that it really means...I was just answering in terms of the specific question....
I would probably assume if she was pointing to a burger at the park or whatever, and seemed to want it, she would be relating it to something she has already eaten and liked such as a veggie burger is all I was saying...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
Yes, and you are expected to follow the same.

If you would like to point out to me privately in a pm or email where I have been sarcastic, insulting, defamatory, harassing, baiting, or anything else in the user agreement, I would be more than happy to go back and edit it out.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

look, my apologies that things got heated. From everything else I have read, it seems we agree on a lot more than we disagree on so perhaps in the future it would be of benefit to us both to focus on those aspects rather than the ones we don't agree on or can't hear eachother or see eye to eye on...

It is not my intent to be a @#$#@$ to anyone, but admittedly, as I said earlier, I do struggle with self control issues even at nearly 28, which incidentally is why I do cut children A LOT of slack in that area, as I haven't even mastered it yet...and sometimes I go off and forget myself and forget these are real human beings on the other end.
sorry I offended you.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)




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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Thanks, Veggie Baby. Like I said, I will be more than happy to go back and take out anything that was out of line on my part.

We need an olive branch smilie.

Annette


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Just want to say, OVB, that I agree with just about everything you say. Maybe I too should check out TCS as I tend to disagree with many of the parenting methods mentioned here. This is not to say that I will stop coming here as I feel that I can learn alot from these mamas and I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. But I tend to have a different way of looking at alot of things discussed here, more in-line with what you are saying in most of your posts it seems.

Quote:

We are likeminded in some aspects, and not in others. We learn from eachother, we take what we can from eachother, and respectfully leave the rest behind.
Beautifully said...I will definitely keep this in mind


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

edited with respect to ICM


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I will explain myself one more time. I think that things which fall under the realm of GD can be disrespectful for a child or an adult ~ redirection (by my definition), distraction, logical consequences, control&#8230;to name a few.

However, there have been times where control, redirection, distraction, coercion and logical consequences (to a lesser extend) have been necessary within my relationship with my child.

You seem to have some issues with GD. I'm not sure how you feel I must be doing it wrong if I don't think it's completely respectful. I strive to be respectful and often times this involves me striving to *improve* upon GD.

There are many threads on control and also some threads on manipulation, which I recommend. It's not always as simple (for me anyway) to just treat my child the way I want to be treated or to simply treat my child with respect. It's a tremendously complex relationship for me.

For me, something as simple as redirecting or distracting my child away from a light socket can feel manipulative.

You do not have to agree with me but, please, please, don't criticize me or tell me I'm disrespectful or that I'm doing something wrong because I have strong feelings about manipulation, control and coercion.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Fair enough, I will keep that in mind, and I am sorry you see it that way.

All I said, and I have to make it painfully clear, it is my OWN personal opinion so take it with whatever, I certainly am not the end all, be all of what is right or wrong, it is just my personal opinion that if someone feels disrespected as a result of GD or their perception of GD, then to me, it is not GD, because in GD there is no place for disrespect in my opinion and if one is practicing it to what I understand it to be, it would probably be rare that someone felt disrespected...

It is clear we don't exactly agree on precisely what GD is and that is okay. Incidentally though, I do think that is where the problems lie with communicating..we can't discuss if we disagree on definitions of terms kwim? So it is probably best we don't discuss it.

Through all the words and posts, that was the sentiment I was trying to make. I am sorry if you felt criticized.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
Okay, using the same situation, lurking around the freezer etc....it would be SO much gentler and SO much more effective and would still get the point across if my hubby gently REDIRECTED me and gently reminded me to use my personal discipline by saying something like, "hey sweetie, those strawberries in there only have a couple days before they go bad, I bet they would be awesome on some yogurt...."

Okay, I know I'm jumping into this late, but I just have to say, that would damn well piss me off. Like, big time royally, make me feel super-extraordinarily disrespected, in a big-time way piss me off. (As would most of the examples you keep using as ways you would "GD" your DH or other adults.) I would be much, much happier with the "Hey, do really want ice cream when you're trying to lose weight?"

I don't "GD" my husband, and he doesn't "GD" me, in the way you seem to be talking about, because that kind of communication drives me crazy. Off-the-wall bananas. In fact, I married who I did in a big part because he doesn't communicate that way. Of course, I also am a little strange around here, because as I was reading _How to Talk so Kids Will Listen . . ._ I nearly threw it down several times because I knew that if I were spoken to in the way advocated, I would be enraged, and would have been even as a child. I think maybe it's just a personal thing for me, but I seek out people who relate to others the same way, and I imagine our kids will be the same way because that's what they see modeled for them.

But I have a hard time because you seem to be saying that because I don't communicate in the manner that you are calling "GD" with my husband, that I don't really have respect for my child or really practice GD with my child. See, I see the examples you are using as disrespectful communication -- and I wouldn't use them with my son, and I wouldn't use them with my husband. I treat both my son and my husband in what I consider to be the most respectful and gentle manner, because I love and respect both of them equally, so I guess if that is your definition of using "GD" with my DH, then yes, I do. But I would never treat him with as little respect as I personally see in the examples such as the one above that you gave. I point this out because it seems important to remember that not everyone likes to be treated the same way, and not everyone sees respect in the same way. So I don't think it's fair to say that if GD feels disrespectful that it's being done _wrong_, when there are so many different people in the world who react so differently to so many things.

I guess I separate it into two things. I communicate completely respectfully with both my husband and my child; I grant them both the same level of respect and love in the communications that I have with them. But I do not discipline my husband, because it is not my place to do so. When I discipline my child, I still communicate with him in the gentle and respectful way that I always do and in the same way that I communicate with my husband -- but the act of disciplining is not something I do with my husband.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

OVB, I feel disrespected by you.









Is that because you aren't using GD or is it because my standard for respect is higher than yours?

Just because I think something is disrespectful doesn't mean that you don't. It is clear to me that there are things that I feel are disrespectful, which you are perfectly fine with.

Keep that in mind when you form your opinions about me and my family.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I guess it has to be considered too, personality types...admittedly, my husband and I are very sensetive people due to whatever reasons, nature or nurture, we don't know, we are both artists too which might account or something, but sometimes we do have to be careful how we speak to one another because our feelings get hurt very easily...

With the fridge thing, that was an arbitrary example because we really don't give a *beep* what the other eats, but I will give a more concrete example...

We are both musicians, I am an artist too---now, he is working on a song right now, and it is brilliant...however, when he recorded the drums last week they sounded absolutely terrible....now honestly tell me what it would have served to flat out tell him they sounded like crap other than to potentially hurt his feelings and make him resent even asking my opinion etc...

I used what I consider was GD...or rather, maybe *gentle communication*...

I said first of all what I DID like about it, his actual playing was good, the fills were good, etc, however, he was doing a weird thing with the kick drum that didn't work, and the sound itself was AWFUL....but again, what does it serve to say that?? So I gently asked if HE was happy with it, and he admitted not too much, but couldn't put his finger on why, then I asked what microphone he was using, he admitted he forgot the one he normally uses, I admitted that I felt the kick drum thing didn't really flow with the song, and that perhaps he would get the effect he wanted if he tried re-recording, using the microphone he usually uses etc...

anyway, he did re-record it yesterday and was SO happy with the result. Okay, he may have re-recorded it either way, or not, or whatever....but he himself knew it didn't sound right and wanted me to validate that I guess, or asked my opinion because he respects it and we help eachother out etc...

...sure, I totally could have scowled and said "God, those drums sound like sh*t!!!!"

...but like, how would that have really helped???

That is what I mean about it being in the delivery, I don't think being respectful is being condescending at all or walking on eggshells...

Similarly, he has commented on my songs or paintings when I've asked, and I would be upset if he said "those colors look like crap" rather than something like, "can you tell me why you chose those colors together? It is an interesting combination, but I don't know how well it works with what you are trying to do"...

There is a time and a place for bluntness, but we try to lift eachother up and choose our words while still getting our point across and being honest and gentle...
I can get a "that song sucks" from a stranger on the street...with my husband, it is nice to be treated lovingly and gently...


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

ICM--

Again, I am sorry you feel disrespected, I have apologized like 10 times and obviously it isn't working for you. I was speaking in terms of respecting people I love, my husband, family, friends---
and while I attempt to respect my fellow humans, I don't have to agree with everything you say or feel. More importantly, and I don't mean to sound snarky at all, but you have every option of never responding to me or to my posts or even reading them if you don't wish to, and to even going so far as to disengaging all together if you don't like what is being said here. I am not suggesting you do that, I am only saying you have the option...

I am sorry if respect to you means I have to agree with everything you think, feel, or say. I honestly am.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

...


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
I said first of all what I DID like about it, his actual playing was good, the fills were good, etc, however, he was doing a weird thing with the kick drum that didn't work, and the sound itself was AWFUL....but again, what does it serve to say that?? So I gently asked if HE was happy with it, and he admitted not too much, but couldn't put his finger on why, then I asked what microphone he was using, he admitted he forgot the one he normally uses, I admitted that I felt the kick drum thing didn't really flow with the song, and that perhaps he would get the effect he wanted if he tried re-recording, using the microphone he usually uses etc...

Now, see, in my house, that conversation would have gone, "Well, your playing was great, but it sounds like there was something *off* about the kick drum. Any idea what it was?" And I think either of the two conversations is completely respectful and gentle, but I don't consider either of them discipline. So maybe it is just an issue of semantics.

I am an artist too, and I've been known to tell my husband "Hey, tell me how great this looks!" when what I need is validation. I told him before we got married "If you don't like my dress, don't tell me, okay?" We are just that direct with each other, and to me, that is the only way to be respectful _for us_. But I would never presume to tell someone else that because they weren't doing it our way, they weren't really being respectful, or that they weren't really practicing GD, or that they weren't really doing whatever they claimed to be doing. That, in and of itself, is extraordianarily disprespectful, IMO.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

I already censored the part I felt was wrong. I will not censor myself further, I am sorry. If the mods can see what you see in that I was being so rude about your parents, they are more than free to edit on my behalf...

Some of you imo are hilariously hypocritical in suggesting you would "never" do this or that or whatever...

It all has to do with perspective...I am a strict vegetarian/vegan....to me, eating fish is NOT vegetarian, but some people seem to think it is...I have NO problem telling someone I don't feel one can be a vegetarian based on my understanding of it, if they eat fish...
Why the *beep* can't I suggest that due to my interpretation and understanding of GD, I don't feel that some things mentioned applied to GD??

Weird...

On one hand, people claim to want honesty, on the other, they say they want lies...which is it? That is my honest opinion, take it how you like, but it is my right to say my opinion, sorry you disagree with that!


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

pagan, you say you don't consider it discipline but on the other hand, are you assuming that one can't consider it them using their personal discipline? Meaning, when I treat my hubby like that, it isn't so much that I am disciplining HIM, but rather, disciplining myself or using my personal self control or self discipline not to instantly say "WOAH...kick drum sound like crap!!!" ...which admittedly, sometimes is my first inclination due to being a pretty blunt person...

discipline or using GD or whatever doesn't just have to be applied to the other person as something you are *doing* to them or *using* towards them....it can mean you are utilizing it for yourself too in the way you react...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Trying to work it out.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
pagan, you say you don't consider it discipline but on the other hand, are you assuming that one can't consider it them using their personal discipline?

Of course. I use my personal discipline in every interaction with every person every day, and in a large part of the day when I'm not interacting with others, so it didn't occur to me that it might be part of what you meant when you talked about "'GDing' your husband or partner." My apologies for misunderstanding.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

edited with respect to ICM

I don't get it, I seriously don't.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

right on pagan, thanks for that!

Admittedly the very first post began with "this is mostly tongue in cheek"...so it's crazy how it went all nuts...lol


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

pming you...


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

OVB: Ignoring the rest of this wacked out thread, OI can say that I completely get you with your 1st post. I am a VERY sensitive person, and I appreciate when my dp tries to redirect me with my eating. him saying something like what you mentioned about strawberries being good with yogurt would remind me to stick to my "diet", whereas, if he had said something like "Kelly, you might not want to eat that doughnut, you're trying to lose weight" I would honestly be insulted. Again, that's me and my issues and the fact that those issues cause me to be over sensitive. Others might not give a crap, but I do. I also respect "You seem distracted, would it be helpful if I took a turn driving?" much more than "You're driving like a maniac. Can you please pull over and I'll take the wheel?" for obvious reasons. I tend to take things personally.

My dp, after me becoming a nagging brat often times, now responds (both physically and emotionally) much better when I say to him "I know you had a long day at work. Maybe when the commercials come on, you could get to the dishes before your show comes back on? I realize you're tired, but the smells getting kinda bad, and I can't cook dinner without the pans I need." If he says no, I quickly ask him when he will be able to get around to it. Whereas, in the past, with my level of frustration and stress, I would have said somehting to the effect of "WHy didn't you do the dishes yet? They STINK! You promised you'd get to them 2 days ago! PLEASE get them NOW!" and shut the tv off.







Not something I'm proud of.

Personally, if my dp offers to do the dishes (which are his chosen chore), I DO expect him to wash the dishes--otherwise what's the point? (shoot, if anything, I'd get more mad at him for making me think they were going to be done, and letting them pile up, harden, etc) I expect much much more than fidelity and presence from my partner, and I'm not even married! Sure, I'll wash the dishes if he asks me respectfully, just as he would help with the laundry if I asked him in such a way.

BUT, I think that it might have been more effective to call it Gentle Communication rather than GD (and yeah, semantics play a big role in perceptions, both at MDC and IRL). That's just IMO.

Best Wishes,
Kelly


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

Thanks Kelly!

You're right, I have removed the evil *d* word from my vocabulary (see my other thread) lol

ICM--I edited...I hope we can find some peace with eachother, it really isn't my intent to hurt other people's feelings and I am sorry if I did.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
ICM--I edited...I hope we can find some peace with eachother, it really isn't my intent to hurt other people's feelings and I am sorry if I did.

Thank you and I hope we find some peace together as well.

You are a brave and intriguing member of this community and I don't want to be at odds with you.

I hope you understand that I can be very rational but when it comes to protecting my family I get quite passionate. In the end, I wasn't even focusing on your intent ~ I just needed the implication that I wasn't parented well gone because it couldn't be further from the truth.

Thank you very much for editing the confusion.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

No problem, again I am sorry for offending you. I apologize if you felt I was attacking your parents or your parenting style, as no matter how heated I may get or whatever lack of self control I may have--ultimately, I am not a mean or hurtful person and I don't like to act or come across that way.

Peace.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

*Moderator Note*

I'm glad everyone's made up, or so it seems. Please keep subsequent discussion respectful, as mandated by the user agreement, or I will need to remove this thread from the board.


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