# Need advice- obsessed Grandma causing problems



## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi-

My mom is divorced, lives alone, and while she does attend social activities with co-workers and takes trips with girlfriends, she is not particularly close to anyone. She has major insecurities she adamantly denies and refuses to take advice from anyone. During my childhood, she was extremely dedicated my brother and I which was wonderful in some respects but she definitely smothered the heck out of me. My father treated her terribly and she really fulfilled her emotional needs through me when I was younger. When I was ~12 I withdrew from her (as all tweens do) and she took it extremely hard. We were not close at all through my teenage years and I certainly wouldn't call us close now but for the most part we manage ok. She doesn't mean any harm but refuses to acknowledge she ever does anything wrong and insists she is perfectly happy.

Her relationship with my 6yo DD is worrying me. When she is around her she (1) completely takes over as her mom, to the point where I have to remind her that I am the mom on occasion and what I say goes (2) caters to her every whim and freely admits it (saying how wonderful it is to never have to be the bad guy), taking her anywhere she wants to go, fully engaging in child play for extended periods of time, etc.

Now, I didn't particularly worry or care about any of this (who wouldn't want a grandma like that?) but (1) DD is starting to say things like, "no - Mimi says XX and she knows more than you because she is YOUR mother" (2) when my mom enters the scene, she instantly wants her and no one else and (3) the last two times we have left her my DD has SOBBED for long periods of time (an hour last weekend). I've never seen DD that upset in my life.

Here's an example: we are at Mother's day brunch on Sunday. DD is sitting 2 seats away from me on my mother's lap. I tell DD to get in her seat. My mom says "oh no, she's fine." My mom then proceeds to take her to the buffet 7+ times, cut her food for her, while constantly repeating what DD says (to announce to the table how cute she is).

My mom lives about 3 hours away, BTW.

My DH thinks my mom is a nutcase and now says he doesn't want our DD left alone with her at all. This is a huge blow to our lives, as she was the one person who we could trust (and was willing) to watch her for overnight trips.

I need to start by talking to my mom about this. I'm thinking I should talk about how upset DD was and that she needs to "pull back". I know this conversation will not go well.

I'd love to hear others' opinions on this and advice on what I should do about this moving forward. Thanks a lot.

-Jen


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

I don't have any direct advice but I wanted to let you know that you aren't the only person dealing with this opressive/obsessive level of love. My MIL is very similar in this regard and she lives 20 minutes. Before the grandkids were born she was pretty obsessed with her children/our lives so I had an idea what it would be like. I just never expected to be so much worse. The only approach that has worked at all is to throw up roadblocks and boundries, and while those work a little bit, sometimes, she also takes offense at practically everything. There is never enough time/access/special and yes, she is absolutely fullfilling her emotional needs through the kids.

To me, the most worrisome aspect of what you've described is her undercutting of your parenting. That is just totally unacceptable. Also the infantilizing of the child (food cutting up, etc.) would drive me crazy. We have meals where I ask her not to do three, four times. I would probably start with those.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't have any advice either.

I was thinking she wasn't so bad til you got to the part about her saying "Well, I know more than her because i'm HER mommy" and her announcing everything your daughter said to the whole table. That's embarrassing to you, and it could cause bad feelings with others. I'm pretty sure I would have talked about that to my friends if i'd been at that meal.

It does sound weird to me.

However, there's a huge part of me that feels like Grandparents are so important. I can't imagine if I weren't allowed to be with my grandparents. My best, and most lasting memories are with my grandparents. I can't remember the house WE lived in when I was nine, but I can remember small details of my Grandparents house...even the smells.

I think i'd have a heart to heart with your Mom before taking drastic steps like that. Then, give her a chance to make some changes first.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't really have any advice, but just to add another perspective (completely the opposite of nextcommercial's):

My grandmother behaved in a similar way. I adored her a small child, and she "loved" me and my siblings and cousins beyond reason. My mother's biggest regret about our childhood is that she didn't cut off contact. And, I felt as though I got out of jail the day my grandmother died (I was 20 or 21). She'd spent two decades wrapping me up in chains of guilt, manipulation, and what she called "love", and the chains were finally gone. She's been gone for over 20 years, and I've never missed her - not once, not for a single second. (Several people asked if it was hard to get married without her there...I think I'd have eloped, rather than deal with her, if she'd still been alive.)

I did eventually get to a point where I just felt sorry for her, as she managed to live over 70 years, and never, ever get it - not even a little bit - about people and love and relationships. I managed to stop hating her guts a few years after she died. But, I stopped loving her at an early age, and I never liked her.

I get why people think grandparents are important, and I think my mom, stepdad and in-laws have all been wonderful for my kids. But, the importance of grandparents really depends on the individual grandparent - it's not a univeral truth.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I think it really depends how often you are seeing her. She lives 3 hours away, so do you see her weekly? It also depends on how your daughter feels about it. If she is enjoying the attention (sitting on grandma's lap, etc), fine. When she no longer wants to do those things, then grandma would have to stop. It sounds to me like, for now, she is enjoying the attention.

About grandma knowing more, did the child say it, or your mother. I wouldn't assume that the child is repeating what your mother said, if the child said it.

I guess, all in all, I'd still be comfortable with the relationship. I had nephews and nieces who preferred me to their parents. It meant that I could provide childcare, which my siblings took advantage of. But I never asked the children to do something they didn't want to do. Often there would b:treehuggere one who wanted to sit in my lap. Fine with me. I never *tried* to get one to sit in my lap, however. Aunts and grandmas have the luxury of saying "yes" more often. Of course that is preferred.

I am confused about why your daughter is crying, however. She doesn't want time with grandma to be over? That's pretty normal. Crying for an hour seems a bit much.


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## Fortune Teller (Jan 28, 2013)

You know, sounds like a wonderful, typical grandma to me









I do think you have some valid concerns though, and you should focus on addressing those very specific details when you talk to her, instead of bringing in your own baggage from your childhood or sweeping criticisms which will just put her on the defensive.

I think if you explain how her lack of boundaries/ rules with your daughter makes your job so much harder (dd doesn't listen, doesn't respect my rules, etc) she should understand and be willing to change that behavior (if she is reasonable). If you outline how hard it is for your daughter (sobbing, possibly getting into trouble with mom and dad when she pushes boundaries at home that grandma lets her get away with) then I would think she would want to proactively help your daughter out by adding some consistency.

I don't see the need to cut her off from alone time with your dd. That to me seems cruel and unwarranted. She obviously loves your dd to pieces, and, as you said, means no harm. She's a good grandma, trustworthy, the two of you have a good relationship, and your dd loves her and is attached to her. I know a lot of mamas here and IRL would kill to have such a grandparent for their children!

Just be tactful how you talk to her.

We go through similar things with my MIL. Yeah, it frustrates us sometimes. My daughter even at one point wanted to live with grandma because she felt she would get all this undivided attention and no rules and get anything she wanted... and that hurt. But, I would never take that out on my MIL. She is an awesome grandmother to my children and yes, it makes our life harder for a few days after visits (she spoils them rotten), but to me it is worth it.

How often does your mom see your dd? My MIL lives 5 hours away and so we see them on average 4-5 times a year, for 3-7 days at a time. I know she misses her grandkids like crazy and wishes she could be a bigger part of their life, and so I do let her indulge them and spoil them even though it means a few days of de-programming at home after she leaves lol. BUT, if it were more frequent (which it sounds like it is for you), then I would definitely set more boundaries.

Flattery always works. I would say "Because you are such a big part of dd's life, and she loves you so much, we really need you to team up with us in order to make her adjustment period between visits smoother on her.." Or something like "You know, you are such a big part of dd's life that you really do need to be the 'bad person' sometimes, because this lack of consistency between you and us is making her life and transitions really hard, and you see her way too often to always be the 'doting grandmother'..."


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## Fortune Teller (Jan 28, 2013)

Oh, and my kids cry after grandma leaves too. It is perfectly normal.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the replies. 
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JudiAU*
> 
> I don't have any direct advice but I wanted to let you know that you aren't the only person dealing with this opressive/obsessive level of love. My MIL is very similar in this regard and she lives 20 minutes. Before the grandkids were born she was pretty obsessed with her children/our lives so I had an idea what it would be like. I just never expected to be so much worse. The only approach that has worked at all is to throw up roadblocks and boundries, and while those work a little bit, sometimes, she also takes offense at practically everything. There is never enough time/access/special and yes, she is absolutely fullfilling her emotional needs through the kids.
> 
> To me, the most worrisome aspect of what you've described is her undercutting of your parenting. That is just totally unacceptable. Also the infantilizing of the child (food cutting up, etc.) would drive me crazy. We have meals where I ask her not to do three, four times. I would probably start with those.


 Sounds like you can relate! Yes she does undercut my parenting but it's more of the "no it's ok" as in, I don't mind her on my lap/putting her to bed, etc. She bought her a Scooby-Doo movie that was not a cartoon and much too scary for her, and when I took it away she told my DD that I was right and replaced it with an age-appropriate version.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> 
> I was thinking she wasn't so bad til you got to the part about her saying "Well, I know more than her because i'm HER mommy"


 My DD said that, not my mom. My mom had told her some sugar cereal was healthy because it said "whole grain" and my DD wanted to eat it. So when I told DD it wasn't healthy she said Mimi says it is and she is YOUR mom so she knows more than you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> My grandmother behaved in a similar way. I adored her a small child, and she "loved" me and my siblings and cousins beyond reason. My mother's biggest regret about our childhood is that she didn't cut off contact. And, I felt as though I got out of jail the day my grandmother died (I was 20 or 21). She'd spent two decades wrapping me up in chains of guilt, manipulation, and what she called "love", and the chains were finally gone.


Can you be a bit more specific about your grandmother? I don't think my mom does anything like this, she certainly didn't when I was young, it was more that I just wanted some space and she had a lot of anxiety that I would be abducted/hurt and that was tough to deal with sometimes.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I think it really depends how often you are seeing her. She lives 3 hours away, so do you see her weekly? It also depends on how your daughter feels about it. If she is enjoying the attention (sitting on grandma's lap, etc), fine. When she no longer wants to do those things, then grandma would have to stop. It sounds to me like, for now, she is enjoying the attention.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fortune Teller*
> 
> We go through similar things with my MIL. Yeah, it frustrates us sometimes. My daughter even at one point wanted to live with grandma because she felt she would get all this undivided attention and no rules and get anything she wanted... and that hurt. But, I would never take that out on my MIL. She is an awesome grandmother to my children and yes, it makes our life harder for a few days after visits (she spoils them rotten), but to me it is worth it.


Thanks Fortune Teller for sharing this and the good advice. I've honestly never heard of kids crying when grandma leaves so it's good to hear other kids do the same.

-Jen


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Ds cries whenever we leave or grandparents leave. We have definitely driven away from his grandparents' house with him sobbing and continuing to sob for a long time. That wouldn't worry me at all. It is sad when someone you love and are having a good time with leaves.

The "she's your mother so she knows more than you" sounds like maybe you have said something similar to your dd, maybe? Like "that isn't healthy. I'm your mother and I know when things are healthy" or whatever. I have definitely told ds things like "well I have more than 30 years experience doing xyz that's why I can..."

I think that if you want your dd to sit in the chair and not in a her gmom's lap for a reason then you give them that reason, "Thanks MIL, I appreciate that it doesn't bother you, but we are working on proper table manners and believe it is important for dd to be sitting in her own chair" or whatever the reason is. You tell both your dd and your mil the reason and be honest. If you just don't like it because you think mil is being babying her, I'd just ignore it. It's not every week, it's special and sweet and soon she'll be too big and heavy anyway.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

I think she sounds like a great grandmother.

Your DD is 6, and obviously enjoying the babying and attention.

I would worry when DD grows up a bit and doesn't want to be babied...and grandma is still babying.

For saying things like "It's OK" when you tell your DD to not sit on her lap, or that grandma wont be putting her to bed. That is probably just your Mum telling you that it isn't bothering her. Maybe she thinks you are telling DD to sit in her chair because you are worried that DD is bothering grandma. When I am with friends kids, or my nieces and nephews...I say stuff like that too. I just want the parents to know I am OK with the kid in my space at the time. I have never thought that I may be over stepping the parenting.

Your Mum is right. The priveledge of being a grandparent means that you get to say yes more often, you get to spoil children, you get to be a playmate and enjoy them. Especially when you do not see them very often. If a grandparent sees a kid often, or is a care giver, then they should have to obide by the rules.

But I don't care if my kids grandparents give them privledges that I don't. That's one of the things that kids look forward to when seeing a grandparent.

And yes, crying when someone you care about, will miss, etc leaves is completely normal. Sobbing for an hour about it when you are 6, over tired and overwhelmed is absolutely normal.

I do not mean this in a snarky way at all.

But I wouldn't worry until your kid seems to want space and your Mum can't give it to her. Then start helping your kid to get the space SHE wants.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


> My DD said that, not my mom. My mom had told her some sugar cereal was healthy because it said "whole grain" and my DD wanted to eat it. So when I told DD it wasn't healthy she said Mimi says it is and she is YOUR mom so she knows more than you.


Well, now...that is kind of impressive. A little disrespectful, but clever enough that i'd have a hard time arguing with a girl like that. (I wouldn't have given in, based on THAT argument, but it sounds like she can hold her own in a debate)


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snydley*
> 
> No not weekly, I would say we've seen her 3 times since January 1st and that is more frequent than normal. I think it was the solid hour of sobbing that disturbed DH and I. She was completely exhausted (went to bed 2 hours past her bedtime the night before). Luckily she didn't wake up and have her bags packed to move to Mimi's. She didn't mention her at all the next day.


look at it from your dd's point of view. she rarely gets made the queen. the center of attraction to the kind grandma's do. so crying seems VERY normal in this respect. as pp pointed out - exhaustion totally turns emotions into drama queen. her crying wasnt so much about missing gma i reckon. probably more about i am tired and exhausted and on top of that gma is not here.

these little frictions do happen. he said she said.

i think its really really important to have loving family in our children's lives. you just have to make sure she spoils your dd and not smothers her.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

I didnt read all the replies, but regarding the crying, my 12 year old still gets teary when we leave my dad's house. This has toned down from full on refusal to leave (me peeling him off my dad and dragging him to the car) and crying until we reached the IL/WI border and he finally passed out. Now my dd is the same way. They LOVE their papa (heck, I get sad leaving too). He lives 2 horus away and a visit to his house is a lot of time in the car, eating less than perfect food and lots of time in a small place. It's a long day and that adds to the tears I'm sure. When my ds was little he used to call my dad to talk and if he had gotten in trouble that day he would tell my dad that I was bad and he should punish me. He was a total tattle tale because he knew that A) Papa was my dad, and you have to listen to your dad and B) his Papa thought he was PERFECT so of course he shouldnt get in trouble!

I think you're ok, honestly.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Within the boundaries of safety and normal good manners, I think it is great, even essential, that kids learn that rules and expectations are different in different places, with different people. For example, in school, one might be expected to raise one's hand before speaking, but not at home. At dinner with Grandma, it is OK to sit on her lap, she might cut your food. That doesn't happen at home. OK. Different rules in different environments.

Even if it feels like Grandma is undermining the rules and expectations of home, she only gets so much time; so much influence. Full-time home life will outweigh Grandma time in the long run. I would treasure the bond they have, and probably even joke with my child about it in between visits - "I bet Grandma would let you do this, but I am the mean Mama and I won't".

I agree with others that it is OK for a child to cry and be sad to leave. Who wouldn't be? Nothing you described crosses the line for me, and it sounds like you AND your child would be loosing if you cut off Grandma (not to mention Grandma's loss).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OP: I'm obviously in the minority here. My childhood was badly damaged by a toxic grandparent, and I do tend to project a bit on the topic. There are definitely things that many people consider to be perfectly normal grandparent behaviour that are absolute deal breakers for me. (For example, if any of my children's grandparents so much as feed them something I've told them not to, they get one warning - one - and then I'll cut off contact. Done.) So, I think I'm probably best to bow out on this one, as my perspective is skewed. I really only replied, because of the comment about grandparents being so important. My mom believed that, too. The people around her believed it, and dismissed her concerns. I don't think grandparents are important - I think grandparents can be important...not the same thing.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I agree with Storm Bride that no grandma is better than a toxic grandma. We have little or nothing to do with either grandmas, in our family. But I didn't see anything terrible in the original post. Like another poster said, the "that's ok", when the parent says the child should get grandma's lap seemed more like an "I don't mind, so if you thought I did and that's why you told her to get off, it's not necessary" sort of thing. The child crying at the end of the visit just means the child had a good time.

Certainly if there is something we are not understanding, please let us know, OP. The advice is based on a tiny snapshot. It's possible we need more info. So far, though, it seems like grandma is enjoying being a grandma. Nothing more.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I felt as though I got out of jail the day my grandmother died (I was 20 or 21). She'd spent two decades wrapping me up in chains of guilt, manipulation, and what she called "love", and the chains were finally gone..... she managed to live over 70 years, and never, ever get it - not even a little bit - about people and love and relationships. I


I'm with you on this one (as I often am!). I think the red flags in the OP are that the grandmother is an emotionally damaged and stunted woman who isn't capable of a relationship with some one old enough to think for themselves, so the OPer sees a train wreck coming for her child. It sounds like grandma is using the granddaughter to meet her own emotional needs, proving to herself that she is lovable by spoiling a child.

Yes, it is normal for grandparents to do a bit of spoiling. My DH and I are looking forward to that! However, it isn't healthy to allow an adult to use your child to meet their own, twisted, emotional needs.

I think it would be wise to set clear boundaries in the relationship, including no unsupervised time (at least for now) and make it clear to grandma that she has to back up what mom and dad say, or she won't be seeing her grandchild for while. I think it would be best to be very specific in this conversation. If the child looks to grandma to override mom and dad, it might be helpful to give grandma a specific line to say, such as "your mom said 'no' and she said that because she wants what is best for you because she loves you."

Although it will be a difficult conversation to have, it may help you get some closure with your own issues with your mother because setting boundaries is a very powerful thing to do. You also might enjoy reading the book "toxic parents." I got one of the best lines for my own parents out of that book: "I can see how you would feel that way, but none the less, this is what I've decided to do."

As far as overnight trips, your DD might be old enough to start enjoying sleepovers with friends.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm having a hard time getting a feel from this whether this is a grandma spoiling and pushing the boundaries a little bit, or whether it's a toxic situation. It's hard to tell based on this. Generally, I think grandparents should be given a bit of leniency. Let them spoil and have some different rules. On the other hand, if a rule gets to be a serious problem, then say something, and if it passes to the point of becoming toxic, then do what you need to do, up to and including cutting of the relationship if it's bad enough.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

What are the red flags of the grandma being emotionally stunted and twisted? If they exist, and they might, they were not provided. I'd like to hear more from the OP.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> What are the red flags of the grandma being emotionally stunted and twisted?



She smothered her own children.
She had a dysfunctional relationship with her spouse.
She fulfilled her emotional needs through her children.
She couldn't maintain a healthy relationship with her daughter as her daughter grew into an adult.
She has major insecurities.
Lacks ability to be close to other adults.
Takes over for the mother and overrides her. Often.
The line that grandma knows more most likely came from grandma -- she may be working very systematically to undermine parents.
Cannot admit when wrong, which shows she doesn't accept responsibility for own actions.
Dad thinks that grandma is a nut case and doesn't want his child left alone with her.
Mom is uncomfortable with the affect that spending time with her has on child.

The advice on mothering is general to listen to your gut, and both parents' gut level feeling is that the situation is unhealthy for their child. The question was how to go about talking to the crazy grandma, not whether or not the grandma was crazy.

My advice was to set clear boundaries, and I stand by it. It's solid advice for any parent when dealing with any other adult whose interactions with your child make you uncomfortable.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> 
> She smothered her own children.
> ...


You know...after my first post, I found myself wondering why I'd reacted the way I had (I'm well aware that there are many grandparents who are nothing like my late grandmother). But, this really addresses that. I didn't note most of this consciously, but I think these factors all played into my reaction - just a general feeling that the grandmother is using the grandchild to fill her own emotional needs, which bothers me.

I remember a restaurant family dinner with my grandparents when I was about 14. After dinner, grandma gave me a hug goodbye...and wouldn't let go. She had a death grip on me, and it honestly freaked me out. I think that moment crystallized all my issues with her...kind of an epiphany. If I bruised more easily, I think she'd have left bruises. The grandma in the OP just pushed my buttons.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> 
> She smothered her own children.
> ...


I am *very* concerned that someone other than the OP is answering this question!! Any of us can come up with a list from the original post. However, only the OP can back that up. I would very much like for the OP to reply for herself.

It is also typical on mothering for those replying to let an OP know when they feel she has made an error. And that's what's going on here. The OP may very well have legitimate concerns, but unles she returns to the dialog and provides details, I am not going to change my opinion.

Please, OP, join the conversation and let us know what you are thinking and feeling. We, at least I, want to help. I mean no disrespect. But taking the step of limiting contact with a family member should be based on something more than a little indulgence. It is not a step to be taken lightly, because there is no going back to the way it is now, if you decide later that you were mistaken.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> You know...after my first post, I found myself wondering _why_ I'd reacted the way I had (I'm well aware that there are many grandparents who are nothing like my late grandmother). But, this really addresses that. I didn't note most of this consciously, but I think these factors all played into my reaction - just a general feeling that the grandmother is using the grandchild to fill her own emotional needs, which bothers me.
> 
> I remember a restaurant family dinner with my grandparents when I was about 14. After dinner, grandma gave me a hug goodbye...and wouldn't let go. She had a death grip on me, and it honestly freaked me out. I think that moment crystallized all my issues with her...kind of an epiphany. If I bruised more easily, I think she'd have left bruises. The grandma in the OP just pushed my buttons.


Did you cry when the visit was over? Or were you relieved?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I am *very* concerned that someone other than the OP is answering this question!!


Seriously? You referred to my post and you are concerned that I responded?









um, you know you posted on a discussion board, right?


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

In rereading the original post, I have different concerns. The OP has diagnosed her mother. That is concerning to me. I have never told my mother I think she is a narcissist. Why would I? I don't expect her to change. Nor do I expect her to admit it. And I might be wrong. I do know that I and my son are not comfortable around her. That is good enough. But in this case the child clearly enjoys being with the grandmother. It is possible that mother and daughter rub each other the wrong way, but grandmother and granddaughter get along. It will negatively impact the OP's relationship with her daughter if she causes separation for selfish reasons. I wonder ... did the OP's mother do something similar to the OP.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Seriously? You referred to my post and you are concerned that I responded?
> 
> ...


Yes, I know this is a discussion board. However you do not have personal knowledge of the individuals involved. The OP, alone, can answer what is so troubling to her.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Yes, I know this is a discussion board. However you do not have personal knowledge of the individuals involved.


no, I just take what people write in their posts at face value.









You aren't the queen of mothering, and you don't get to tell me whether or not I can post.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> no, I just take what people write in their posts at face value.
> 
> ...


I cannot prevent you from posting, just as you cannot prevent me from asking the OP to return and answer questions. Personally, I wish you had taken what I had written last year at face value. You questioned me then, remember?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Did you cry when the visit was over? Or were you relieved?


At 14? I was relieved - beyond relieved. But, I adored her when I was six (I believe that's the OP's daughter's age), and the only reason I didn't cry very much when visits were over was because we saw her very frequently, and I knew I wouldn't have long to wait.

Being the center of an adult's emotional universe can be quite a rush when you're too young to see how unhealthy and dysfunctional that is.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

It's difficult to be sure the child is being smothered. When she starts wanting less of grandma's attention and is still getting it, then it's more certain. At this point I would give grandma the benefit of the doubt.

I know people who were the center of attention when their grandmothers were around, and they missed those grandmothers when they died. They have lots of confidence, and credit their confidence to the support and encouragement by their grandmothers. I never had that. Neither did my son. I think it's a shame.

The only reason I question it is because once the relationship is cut off, it can never be the same. Therefore it is important to look at the relationship carefully and be very sure. At least that's what I think.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> It's difficult to be sure the child is being smothered. When she starts wanting less of grandma's attention and is still getting it, then it's more certain. At this point I would give grandma the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...


I agree. I personally never said otherwise. However, I do object to the blanket sentiment that "grandparents are important" (at least the way it's usually used - that grandparents are this wonderfully positive influence in people's lives). Grandparents are people. Some people suck, whether they're grandparents or not. I absolutely agree that they can be - my kids have been blessed with a bunch of really awesome grandparents. Even ds1's paternal grandparents, who are screwed up in their own right, are non-toxic grandparents.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh - I also wanted to note that this:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Being the *center of an adult's emotional universe*...


is not the same as this:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I know people who were the *center of attention* when their grandmothers were around,


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I said already that no grandparent is better than a toxic one. I, too, hate the blanket "grandparents are important" view. I just want more info before judging *this* grandma.

Also, I want more info before agreeing that the grandma is putting the granddaughter at the center of her emotional universe. There were no examples supporting that statement, unless I missed it.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> I am *very* concerned that someone other than the OP is answering this question!! Any of us can come up with a list from the original post. However, only the OP can back that up. I would very much like for the OP to reply for herself.


I just wanted to back up what Linda on the Move was saying. You specifically quoted her post and asked about that. You did say you wanted to hear from the OP, but that seemed like in addition to, not instead of. The OP did not use the phrase: "the grandmother is an emotionally damaged and stunted woman" LotM did, It follows, then, that it would useful to hear why she said this, even if I think it's harsh.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> The OP did not use the phrase: "the grandmother is an emotionally damaged and stunted woman" LotM did, It follows, then, that it would useful to hear why she said this, *even if I think it's harsh.*


I think its accurate, though "enmeshment" is the more correct term for her brand of crazy. It's sometimes called "emotional incest." This is a key sentence in the OP:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snydley*
> 
> My father treated her terribly and *she really fulfilled her emotional needs through me when I was younger.* When I was ~12 I withdrew from her (as all tweens do) and she took it extremely hard. We were not close at all through my teenage years and I certainly wouldn't call us close now but for the most part we manage ok.
> 
> -Jen


Grandma was in a relationship where she was treated terribly (verbally abusive?) for years. Most likely, something in her childhood set her up for this. That is where the "damaged" part comes in. She was treated badly, most likely by multiple people that she felt had power over her.

A lot of people don't get their emotional needs met through their marriage, but most turn to another adult -- a friend, a parent, a sibling, a new lover -- to have those need met. But some don't -- some turn to their kids. There is a lot written about this, such as this article: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/enmeshment-symptoms-and-causes-125738708.html

Part of the reason that the OPer is having such a hard time just telling her mom to lay off is because her relationship with her mother is so unhealthy to begin with. In a healthy relationship between an adult offspring and their parent, open communication may be a little awkward from time to time, but its very doable. But the grandmother doesn't have any concept of what healthy boundaries are and most likely doesn't think her DD has a right to set them, so there is just no easy way to set boundaries.

The grandmother has not grown emotionally -- she is still making the same mistakes she was when the OPer was growing up. Hence, "stunted."

I think that what a lot of people are focusing on is that the grandmother doesn't set boundaries with the grandchild and she spoils the grandchild, and that is really quite typical of a grandparent/grandchild relationship. It's nothing to get worked up over.

But there is something far bigger going on her, and the OPer knows it, and knows what her DD is getting set up in a couple of years. I'm surprised at the lack of support on this thread for a mother to listen to her gut.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I totally agree with Linda on the move


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

There was not a single example of the difficulties between mother and daughter. That's why I, for one, am having trouble backing up the OP. The only examples provided were typical grandma "spoiling" granddaughter things. That's why I kept asking for the OP to give additional information.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi- Ok clearly more information is needed. Here's the background (sorry this is long!):

My mom grew up 1 of 4 siblings with a mother one could easily say had some type of personality disorder. She had zero emotions for her kids and used them in fights with her father. For example, she would take the kids, put them all in a car, and make them sleep in it so when dad got home he had no idea where anyone was. They were also dirt poor and did not always have food, usually no Christmas presents, etc. Her dad seemed like a good, caring man but worked all the time and kept emotional distance from the kids. I knew both of my grandparents growing up and the stories my mom and aunt told me certainly fit what I saw/experienced.

So my mom marries in her early 20s, has 2 kids, and rapidly realizes her husband is an alcoholic, lazy, and has no respect for her. He lied constantly and pretty much did whatever he wanted, for example: he took out loans on our house without telling her to pay off his relatives' debts, he didn't come home from work about once a month until midnight when he would be totally bombed, he would comment if she didn't have makeup on when he came home from work, he pretty much refused to help with household chores. She had no education (besides high school) and she told me much later that she really felt trapped - even if she wanted to leave she had no money to support us.

She provided emotional support, encouragement, and kept the house/our schedules 100% predictable. I was an easy-going, confident kid. My brother was high needs from the beginning and had big problems. He always spent a lot of time in his room, reading.

Between the ages of ~7-12, the smothering really wore on me. She was definitely hugging too long (I can remember pushing her off at times) and I didn't like her being room mother every year, girl scout leader.. just TOO present in my life. She packed some anxiety with it as well- I was about 11 when we took a family trip to New York City for the weekend. She was SO freaked out about being there that when I asked to go down the hall to buy a soda from the vending machine in the hotel, she wouldn't let me go alone. It was maybe a 20-30ft walk. That said, she did let me play at neighbor's houses, etc at least&#8230;but it was difficult.

Around age 12 I must have turned into the typical pre-teen and she and I fought a lot. She even started hitting me at this point, which escalated with me finally knocking her flat to the ground (she never hit me again after that). I got my period at 13 and didn't want to tell her, I went through high school with a heavy drinking issue (on weekends) I would say starting around age 16. I became really independent (maybe this is the opposite of enmeshment?) and forged my own way through high school, college, grad school. Panic disorder hit me in my 2nd year of undergraduate; and I can remember telling my psychiatrist that my mom complained to me about my dad constantly. He told me to take a stack of his business cards and every time she mentioned my dad I should hand her one.

My senior year of undergraduate my brother attempts suicide. This is the beginning of ~5 hospitalizations for him over a 10 year span and a diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder. When DH enters the scene I'm 25, talking to my mom on the phone about my dad all the time and I'm the primary caregiver for my brother, who absolutely hates both our parents and is not exactly appreciative of my efforts. DH (this is all before we were married or engaged) 100% supported all of this for maybe 2 years - flying to care for my brother, then moving him to our town to live with us (in our house for a while)..and then he's just had it. He said my entire family is using me as their emotional rock and it's all at my expense. Knowing I could lose my relationship if I didn't make a change, I finished grad school and we moved to the other side of the country. My parents divorced, my mom graduated from college and got a great job. No more complaining about my dad.

My brother went off meds again in 2007 and I had a new baby and didn't fly to Oregon to try to get him committed. My parents went. It didn't work and he's now homeless and refusing help. My parents wire him money every 3 days.

So, when DH says my mom is crazy and doesn't want unsupervised time with DD and her, know that he's carrying anger from the past. He's also calmed down a bit this week and isn't absolutely saying that anymore. Also, we haven't heard her say anything disturbing to DD (and we pay close attention).

Also, it may not be evident from this narrative, but my mom doesn't want to hurt anyone, she really does mean well. She cried when I moved to California but wrote me a really nice note about how much joy it brings her to see all I've accomplished and all I am experiencing. "Run like hell" she wrote.

One more thing- I talked to my mom yesterday about our concerns. She said "Absolutely you and DH are boss" and when I talked to her about going from "Super-grandma" to "grandma" she said "ok that is totally fine but we'll need to explain the new rules to DD so she doesn't think I'm rejecting her. Like, I can't play with you right now, I need to read the paper for 10 more minutes because that is the rule." You can see she's not getting it. I don't see how she can. Also, I should mention that we had a birthday party for DD last weekend and she wasn't chasing her around the whole time or anything, she was talking to the other adults for the entire party. Just to give you an idea of how extreme she is.

I'm going to stop here for now. Thanks.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> There was not a single example of the difficulties between mother and daughter. That's why I, for one, am having trouble backing up the OP. The only examples provided were typical grandma "spoiling" granddaughter things. That's why I kept asking for the OP to give additional information.


I agree. What everyone is saying may, in fact, be true, but I would need further examples.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

It looks like Polliwog and Snydley cross posted.

Since no one else is chiming in, I'll go first.

I reread the original post and your additional post, and I'm still not seeing any definate red flags. It looks like grandma had issues, and has worked on them. It also seems like maybe, just possibly, you are having trouble getting past the old anger.

Before you hurt the relationship between your mother and your daughter, I would suggest some counseling for you, and possibly you and your mother. Make sure you aren't coloring current behavior with past emotion.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks pek64.

I've discussed counseling with my mom numerous times, particularly after my brother's situation became so bad in 2007. I suggested we go together. I was really on her case a couple of years ago about how emotionally isolated I felt that she was- which she was EXTREMELY offended by. She says she is perfectly happy. At that point, I realized there is no point in trying to change people who don't want to see what could be going on with them and I try to make the best of our relationship. I'm not so angry with my mom that I want to limit her relationship with DD and I do want them to be close. I really don't want to limit it for selfish reasons as well, because, as I said, she's our most reliable overnight babysitter and losing that would stink.

That said, it's what my instinct is telling me on this (that elements of this relationship could be toxic for DD) that I'm not sure if I can trust given by lack of objectivity here. It was the way she was crying in the car (and I know others wrote that it is normal)..but never in my life have I heard sobbing of that nature from her. Pair that up with my mom's latest comment about how telling DD she needs to wait 10 minutes before Mimi can play with her as potential rejection and it just leaves me wondering. I mean, WTF- telling I child they need to wait 10 minutes is normal behavior. I told my mother that DD seems like she is viewing her as her pet...and this is just weird!! But, even so, is it "toxic"? I just don't know.

I'm coming to the conclusion that maybe DH and I should keep a really close eye on how they interact from now on, and space out the visits a bit more for now (every 2-3 months). My mom is supposed to watch her for 4 nights in August so we can go away for our 10th anniversary..not sure if that is too long to leave them at this point. I


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

This is such a difficult situation that I feel it would be beneficial for you to go to therapy alone. The therapist can suggest how to talk with her, and how to handle her responses. What do you think about that?


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I just really feel that it isnour jobs as patents to protect our children. From their own family sometimes. If she was emotionally toxic for you it would make sense to shield your dd a little from the brunt of her. It is not unreasonable at all to limit visits. For my own sanity we limit my in-laws and my family visits just because its too much for me. Not as punishment. On the end its what you are comfortable with. Seeing a grand parent once every couple months is a lot more than a lot of people see their grand children. If you and your dh are uncomfortable then that's all you need. Don't ignore that just because you feel the past is influencing you. That's what the past is for.

I agree with the crying thing in that we do not know your child and if hound it was abnormal for her the I am sure it was.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

The crying shows the child is bonded to the grandmother. If visits are suddenly cut she may resent her mother for doing that.

And I'm not saying to ignore the past. Not at all! But if the past is being projected onto the present, then grandma and granddaughter would be punished for something old. I am simply suggesting she discuss this with a professional who can have a more back and forth exchange with her.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I understand what you are saying but both her and her husband are uncomfortable with the situation. Limiting visits to save their daughter some manipulation is not unreasonable. She is not suggesting no contact. Just on her and her husband's terms which are not unreasonable at all. 6 times a year plus any special event in between is a lot of visits. And even if it is for her own piece of mind she is the mother and sparing her child from that emotionally toxic experience is not a sign she is projecting anything other than concern for her kid. I would rather limit it and be wrong then not do anything and subject my kid to potentially damaging behavior worried i was thinking too much into the past. My relationship with my own mother is toxic. We do not speak and she is not allowed around my son. The op is a better person than me in that she is willing to allow that much visitation at all. Give her a break for having concern for her daughter and the potential relationship that may be betoxic.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

I've thought about this carefully, and here's what's troubling me. You trusted grandma until recently, so completely that you allowed overnight visits, or am I wrong about that. So.... what happened to damage that trust? Your daughter cried when the visit was over? Is that what started you thinking she shouldn't be trusted as much anymore? If that's the turning point, then I think you need to understand that your daughter's behavior was age appropriate, and has nothing to do with grandma. If I missed something, please point it out to me, OP.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I've thought about this carefully, and here's what's troubling me. You trusted grandma until recently, so completely that you allowed overnight visits, or am I wrong about that. So.... what happened to damage that trust? Your daughter cried when the visit was over? Is that what started you thinking she shouldn't be trusted as much anymore? If that's the turning point, then I think you need to understand that your daughter's behavior was age appropriate, and has nothing to do with grandma. If I missed something, please point it out to me, OP.


Without going back and rereading all the posts, I honestly think the crying is totally normal. I have two polar opposite children, absolute yin and yang with everything. One firey and dramatic the other the most even keel person I've ever met. But when we leave my dad's house now, my 7 year old's reaction is the same as ds's when he was 7. He adores his papa, his papa adores him. Why wouldn't they be sad to leave someone that loves them so much, who lets them do whatever they want? It's heavenly to be adored completely. It's not the same as mom or dad, becuase we are there, all the time, we do the loving and the discipline. Grandparents (typically) just do the loving part.


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## LoveOurBabies (Dec 2, 2011)

*OP, what are you scared of?* To be honest, I think you are afraid of being the "bad guy", the "outcast" or dare I say, the "unlovable" one here. You are afraid that your mom's free ride with everything, is making you look less desirable in the eyes of your daughter. She already thinks your mother knows more than you and was very upset at the thought of her grandma leaving (leaving her with her parents that is). I mean, that's enough to make any mother feel insecure and uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean your mom is the issue.

I don't mean to be cruel. I promise. So please hold back any tears and take a deep breath.. I'm trying to offer you a different perspective. I think you feel insecure as a parent.. It's not about the smothering or the potential of your mom's toxicity spreading to your daughter.

Let's think with a little logic.. How can someone that your daughter frolics with less than 10 times a year have such a profound negative effect on her (especially when she is actually enjoying the visits)? You should be more worried about the toxic friends she might make at school, rather than the "toxic" grandmother that visits once a month.

While we're on the toxic people road.. Why is culling them the only solution ever offered? I think culling toxic people is actually the incorrect response in most instances. Obviously, this doesn't apply for physically or sexually abusive people, only for those who give us a hard time mentally or don't respect our decisions. One of the hardest issues we will ever have to face and overcome is the setting of boundaries with other people. If you had boundaries with your mom and she respected them, do you think you would have started this thread? I'm inclined to guess most likely not. Setting boundaries and ensuring they are followed through, is probably the solution you need.

However, if you still believe your mom is a very toxic influence and are toying with the idea of a "cull", then consider this: You can't protect your daughter forever, but you can prepare for her less than desirable influences. Your daughter learning about and working her way through your mom's potential guilt tripping, anxiety inducing or baby-ing of her, might actually be a GOOD thing in the long term. It will prepare her for all the other undesirable attitudes she will endure and be forced to deal with in her lifetime (when you are no longer there to guide and protect her). What about when your daughter befriends a toxic person in highschool or marries a toxic man? How are you going to save her from all of those people?

Last, you said your mom's anxiety was smothering. Be thankful. There are mom's out there too busy with what they want, to even notice their kids exist. There are moms out there who abandon there kids when they are in a bad situation (like your mom was, but she hung around). There are moms out there that break up their family simply because they want to "find themselves" are want "more from life".

Be thankful that while it is still uncomfortable and most annoying to feel smothered, you are still on the best side of the spectrum. She rode it out with an alcoholic so that you wouldn't be out on the streets. She obviously wanted you and your brother to have a decent life. Her approach may not have been perfect, but it's all she knew to do. She is of an older generation where it's seen as weak to admit your faults (hence why she always claims she is fine even when she isn't). The woman needs a break, not more heartache. Have a chat, set some boundaries (think of what makes you the most uncomfortable and ask yourself why) and move forward. Your daughter won't be little forever. One day she will see through all of grandma's sneaky antics (if GM does do that) and will be thankful the relationship between her and mommy is different.

If you need to talk, then please PM me. I have the same type of mother that you've spoken about, had an eerily similar upbringing and have a daughter who is very attached to my mom (and once told me that she trusts grammie more than mommy). I know this situation all too well.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LoveOurBabies*
> 
> While we're on the toxic people road.. Why is culling them the only solution ever offered? I think culling toxic people is actually the incorrect response in most instances. Obviously, this doesn't apply for physically or sexually abusive people, only for those who give us a hard time mentally or don't respect our decisions. One of the hardest issues we will ever have to face and overcome is the setting of boundaries with other people. If you had boundaries with your mom and she respected them, do you think you would have started this thread? I'm inclined to guess most likely not. Setting boundaries and ensuring they are followed through, is probably the solution you need.


I'm not the OP, but wanted to address this question. If I can deal with someone without having to cull them from my life, I don't really consider them toxic - I consider them annoying. If I set boundaries and those boundaries are respected (no matter how much work I have to do to get there), the person's not really toxic. I may still cull them, as I see no reason to have people in my life if I have to constantly fight for basic respect of my boundaries, but I don't consider them toxic.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Quote:


> I don't mean to be cruel. I promise. So please hold back any tears and take a deep breath.. I'm trying to offer you a different perspective. I think you feel insecure as a parent.. It's not about the smothering or the potential of your mom's toxicity spreading to your daughter.
> 
> Let's think with a little logic.. How can someone that your daughter frolics with less than 10 times a year have such a profound negative effect on her (especially when she is actually enjoying the visits)? You should be more worried about the toxic friends she might make at school, rather than the "toxic" grandmother that visits once a month.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> The crying shows the child is bonded to the grandmother. If visits are suddenly cut she may resent her mother for doing that.
> 
> And I'm not saying to ignore the past. Not at all! But if the past is being projected onto the present, then grandma and granddaughter would be punished for something old. I am simply suggesting she discuss this with a professional who can have a more back and forth exchange with her.


DD and GM have seen each other more than usual since Christmas- it's just the way things have worked out. Moving the visits back to once every 2-3 months is moving it back to normal.

I agree about not projecting the past onto the present and I am trying to be objective about this. I posted here specifically for this reason.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I've thought about this carefully, and here's what's troubling me. You trusted grandma until recently, so completely that you allowed overnight visits, or am I wrong about that. So.... what happened to damage that trust? Your daughter cried when the visit was over? Is that what started you thinking she shouldn't be trusted as much anymore? If that's the turning point, then I think you need to understand that your daughter's behavior was age appropriate, and has nothing to do with grandma. If I missed something, please point it out to me, OP.
> The issue is not that I don't trust my mother. I know my mom is always going to be super (uber) nice to DD and make sure nothing bad happens. I wrote this post because DD's recent actions when with/leaving my mom have raised red flags for DH and I. This, in combination with the indisputable fact that my mom seeks to satisfy her emotional needs with DD are why we are now concerned.
> ...


Quote:


> "Last, you said your mom's anxiety was smothering. Be thankful. There are mom's out there too busy with what they want, to even notice their kids exist. There are moms out there who abandon there kids when they are in a bad situation (like your mom was, but she hung around). There are moms out there that break up their family simply because they want to "find themselves" are want "more from life".
> 
> Be thankful that while it is still uncomfortable and most annoying to feel smothered, you are still on the best side of the spectrum. She rode it out with an alcoholic so that you wouldn't be out on the streets. She obviously wanted you and your brother to have a decent life. Her approach may not have been perfect, but it's all she knew to do. She is of an older generation where it's seen as weak to admit your faults (hence why she always claims she is fine even when she isn't). The woman needs a break, not more heartache."


I agree with you so strongly on this that I worry it's biasing me in the other direction- that I'm putting my daughter in a potentially unhealthy situation because the thought of taking DD from her AFTER ALL SHE HAS BEEN THROUGH would not be something I could stand.

Also, I'm not talking about "culling" her from our lives at all. At worst we were considering taking away unsupervised visits but we're both pulling back on that for now.


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

Reinstating the old schedule is reasonable. I didn't understand that was what you were planning earlier.

If you are still holding anger from your own past, therapy can help. And she may be finding it difficult to connect with friends because of trust issues from her marriage. So she is focusing on those she feels comfortable with -- family. I think you can help your own relationship with your mother if you stop trying to fix her. Maybe, just maybe, if she doesn't feel pressure from you to change, she will work on her relationship with you a bit more, which would take away some of the attention she gives to your daughter. Just a thought.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Reinstating the old schedule is reasonable. I didn't understand that was what you were planning earlier.
> 
> If you are still holding anger from your own past, therapy can help. And she may be finding it difficult to connect with friends because of trust issues from her marriage. So she is focusing on those she feels comfortable with -- family. I think you can help your own relationship with your mother if you stop trying to fix her. Maybe, just maybe, if she doesn't feel pressure from you to change, she will work on her relationship with you a bit more, which would take away some of the attention she gives to your daughter. Just a thought.


That is a good thought. I was trying to 'fix' her a couple of years ago (when I moved back from the West Coast). I was trying to help her and she just didn't want to hear it and was very offended. I realized that continuing to do this was not helping anyone and have tried to focus on our relationship a bit more. I find that she and I get along best when it is just the two of us so we do go out to plays/dinners etc 2-3x a year and it always goes well. I also make sure we talk at least once a week.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I'm not the OP, but wanted to address this question. If I can deal with someone without having to cull them from my life, I don't really consider them toxic - I consider them annoying. If I set boundaries and those boundaries are respected (no matter how much work I have to do to get there), the person's not really toxic. *I may still cull them, as I see no reason to have people in my life if I have to constantly fight for basic respect* of my boundaries, but I don't consider them toxic.


I like your post. Personally, I find it less draining to allow my parents to be minimally in my life that to refuse all contact with them. (I've tried both ways).

For me, learning to set boundaries at all was very difficult. Using that new and fragile skills with my parents required the help of a mental health professional. After all, it was my parents who screwed me up so much that I grew up without any idea how to have a boundary.









That was years ago, and I'm good with boundaries now, especially with my parents.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snydley*
> 
> I agree about not *projecting the past* onto the present and I am trying to be objective about this. I posted here specifically for this reason.
> 
> ...


I disagree about projecting the past. My father has had minimal contact with my children, and has never been unsupervised with them because I know from past experience is that he is a pedophile and I know what that is like to deal with as a victim. I don't see the OPer's situation as all that different. Her mother hasn't changed, and her mother's pattern of behavior will eventually deeply hurt her child. Just because the wounds will be in her DD's head and will have been put their by a woman rather than a man, I don't see how sitting around and WATCHING someone screw with your child's head is the best parenting choice. Doing so out of pity for the adult? Its just not a parenting choice I would make.

Getting over that wacked out things my father said to me was actually a lot harder than getting over the sicko things he did to me. I'm pretty protective of my children. One thing I keep in mind is that some day, they will be adults and may ask me questions about different decisions I made. I image how those conversations will go and I what I would like to be able to say.

As far as unsupervised visits, there is a really big difference between them heading to a movie and icecream together vs. spending 4 days together. Partly because with a shorter visit, the child can remember the wacky things grandma says and discuss them with you, but with a longer visit there isn't any other input or way to process. When my kids, who are much older than the OPer's DD, are around my crazy family of origin, they need time to talk to their daddy and I afterward to work out the conversations and comments.

I question how much you and your DH will really be able to relax and enjoy each other on the long trip.

But to repeat what I said earlier -- my advice is to set boundaries and read up "Toxic Parents."


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## pek64 (Apr 8, 2012)

To reiterate, to be sure there is no projecting going on, I encourage speaking with a therapist before taking drastic steps. The OP's plan of action seems reasonable. Further change, without professional input, makes me concerned that it might be a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I like your post. Personally, I find it less draining to allow my parents to be minimally in my life that to refuse all contact with them. (I've tried both ways).
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I disagree about projecting the past. My father has had minimal contact with my children, and has never been unsupervised with them because I know from past experience is that he is a pedophile and I know what that is like to deal with as a victim. I don't see the OPer's situation as all that different. Her mother hasn't changed, and her mother's pattern of behavior will eventually deeply hurt her child. Just because the wounds will be in her DD's head and will have been put their by a woman rather than a man, I don't see how sitting around and WATCHING someone screw with your child's head is the best parenting choice. Doing so out of pity for the adult? Its just not a parenting choice I would make.


I think the difference here is that my mom is MIGHT not be doing anything that would be damaging to my DD in any way. I hear no manipulative talk from my mom at all, nothing but kindness and fun. For this reason, at this point, I don't want to project the past onto the situation. Now, if I saw my mom not letting go of a hug when DD was trying to pull away, etc. it would be another story entirely. This is the type of behavior DH and I are definitely watching for at this point. There's no direct evidence to date that she is screwing with DD's head.

Quote:


> As far as unsupervised visits, there is a really big difference between them heading to a movie and icecream together vs. spending 4 days together. Partly because with a shorter visit, the child can remember the wacky things grandma says and discuss them with you, but with a longer visit there isn't any other input or way to process. When my kids, who are much older than the OPer's DD, are around my crazy family of origin, they need time to talk to their daddy and I afterward to work out the conversations and comments.
> 
> I question how much you and your DH will really be able to relax and enjoy each other on the long trip.


Good points here. I'm still not sure what we are going to do.

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> To reiterate, to be sure there is no projecting going on, I encourage speaking with a therapist before taking drastic steps. The OP's plan of action seems reasonable. Further change, without professional input, makes me concerned that it might be a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


I agree.


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