# Abstinence Education - Full of Lies



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Some Abstinence Programs Mislead Teens, Report Says

Quote:

Many American youngsters participating in federally funded abstinence-only programs have been taught over the past three years that abortion can lead to sterility and suicide, that half the gay male teenagers in the United States have tested positive for the AIDS virus, and that touching a person's genitals "can result in pregnancy," a congressional staff analysis has found.


----------



## cassdarrow (May 29, 2003)

Actually 1 and 3 are true, in the extreme (rare but happens/can happen). I don't know about number two. I doubt half the gay male teens have been tested. I suppose it possible that 1/2 those tested are positive.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I read somewhere else that the anatomy lessons in those classes conspicuously leave out the clitoris.

Another reason to homeschool...


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I bet they find their clitoris on their own


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I wish they'd teach that half the straight male teens tested are HIV-Positive.

But, abstinence education isn't about keeping people safe. It's about pushing a religious agenda.

I am definitely homeschooling! I will not have my child brainwashed by bigots!

I've attempted suicide. I think I'll tell everyone that one of my attempts was because I was forced to attend church one Easter. Then it will be published that church attendence leads to suicide!

Illegal abortions can lead to sterility and death. Will the abstinence educators tell the students that criminalizing abortion leads to sterility and death?

Pregnancy and childbirth lead to sterility and death much more frequently than abortion does.
And my first pregnancy nearly led me to suicide!

If they're going to talk about abortion that way, they should give the kids ALL the info! Pregnancy, Childbirth, Abortions, and Not Having Access To Abortions can all lead to suicide, sterility, and death! DON'T HAVE SEX!!!


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I wonder what those classes teach about masturbation? I would think a class encouraging abstinence would be extolling the virtures of self-love: no diseases (unless you never wash your hands, or something), no risk of pregnancy (as long as it's only your own body involved!), healthy outlet for sexual feelings, opportunity for bodily knowledge...

But I have a feeling the topic is not covered.







:


----------



## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Here is what I never understood about the sex ed problem. Why aren't we teaching sex ed like we teach everything else about health, home ec, etc. We teach our children information that they can take with them into their adult lives. Once our kids leave highschool and go on to college or get married they need to know this stuff. Doctors are notoriously bad nowadays at taking the time to teach women this stuff. Why can't we teach them information that they might need to know in their married lives? A husband and wife most likely will want to understand the woman's fertility and what they can do to avoid pregnancy or hurry it up. Why is it always looked at as "right now"?


----------



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I wonder what those classes teach about masturbation?


You're right-it's not covered.








What's the matter with you Greaseball? I'm SHOCKED!

I thought I knew you well enough to know that masturbation is a dirty sin, and that sexual pleasure is only a bonus (or equally shameful, depending on how puritanical you get) to the PROCREATIVE and SUBMISSIVE "qualities" of sexual intercourse-with your husband only of course!










It's one of those things that makes sense to us (if you don't "let" them have sex with someone else, at least let em have it with themselves) but then you think about the skeletal framework of this agenda, which as lotus mentioned is usually religious.

Sucks, don't it?

Kelly (who had NO trouble finding her parts without the help of a book, thank goodness!)


----------



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

oops double post


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

This sucks. I'm so glad that I do this sex ed myself for the kids. They know everything they need to know for their age. I'll give them the heavy old HIVAids talk in Jr. High once they start acting interested in the opposite sex. Poor other kids. What a shame.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

T
Can anyone recommend a book that teaches kids (maybe jr high age and up) about sex, masturbation, abortion and contraception, pregnancy and childbirth, AIDS and other diseases, abuse/rape, homosexuality, etc etc etc, from a sicko liberal POV, of course? :LOL Our Bodies, Ourselves is good, but written for older people, and the What's Happening to my Body books are good too, but I don't think they talk enough about the "scary stuff."

I think kids should have good reading material to counteract whatever they are learning in school, because I'm sure the private-school kids aren't getting such a great sex education either.


----------



## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

There is an Our Bodies, Ourselves for pre-teens/teens. I'll see if I can find a link.


----------



## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Here it is:

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/changing.htm

From the description:

Based on quotes and stories from hundreds of teenagers and Bell's meticulous research, *Changing Bodies, Changing Lives* thoughtfully answers questions and concerns teenagers confront today, including:

*Changes brought on by puberty
*Eating disorders and body image
*Mental health care
*Teen pregnancy
*STDs and how to avoid them
*Positive role modeling
*Preventative health care
*Drug and alcohol abuse
*Birth control and safer sex
*Sexuality
*Violence and Abuse


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

It's Perfectly Normal by Robie H. Harris is a good book for this topic. There's another by the same guy specifically about where babies come from, for younger kids.


----------



## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

I second It's Perfectly Normal, covers all aspects of sexuality. I've been reading it with my 9-10 yo dd.


----------



## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Deal With It: A Whole New Approach to Your Body, Brain and Life as a Gurl by Esther Drill, Heather McDonald, and Rebecca Odes (the founders of gurl.com). I found this book used, and it's great. Now I just need the equivalent for boys!


----------



## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I read somewhere else that the anatomy lessons in those classes conspicuously leave out the clitoris.

Another reason to homeschool...

And if they're anything like my high school they only show a circumcized penis in the textbooks.







I never knew what a foreskin was or looked like until I was pregnant with ds. I always thought it was just a flap of skin covering the hole in the glans. (Now that I think about it, I don't remember any sex ed at my school whatsoever)


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*







T
Can anyone recommend a book that teaches kids (maybe jr high age and up) about sex, masturbation, abortion and contraception, pregnancy and childbirth, AIDS and other diseases, abuse/rape, homosexuality, etc etc etc, from a sicko liberal POV, of course? :LOL Our Bodies, Ourselves is good, but written for older people, and the What's Happening to my Body books are good too, but I don't think they talk enough about the "scary stuff."

I think kids should have good reading material to counteract whatever they are learning in school, because I'm sure the private-school kids aren't getting such a great sex education either.









This site is made by Planned Parenthood and seems pretty good. I haven't read all of the info there. http://www.teenwire.com/


----------



## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cassdarrow*
Actually 1 and 3 are true, in the extreme (rare but happens/can happen). I don't know about number two. I doubt half the gay male teens have been tested. I suppose it possible that 1/2 those tested are positive.


can you explain this to me please? How are you supposed to get pregnant just by touching someone's genitals?


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

The theory is that if you touch a man who has ejaculated, and then touch yourself, sperm could travel through if you have fertile mucous. Or if a man touches himself and then you.

Or, as my mother explained, this could even happen between two women if one of them has just come from being with her boyfriend.

I wonder how many times either of these scenarios has actually happened? I have heard of people getting pregnant from ejaculation just outside the vagina.


----------



## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Hmmm...I taught an abstinence program and we never told that kind of stuff...most of that sounds hokey (although the abortion statistic is actually true). We focused more on the emotional aspects of sex, and things like condoms not being 100% effective. We provided the scientifically proven evidence that the aids virus is smaller than the holes in condoms. But we never talked about same sex relationships and the like... So, not all abstinence education programs are full of lies. Ours was mainly the group members sharing stories of why they chose to remain abstinent or why they chose stop having sex and wait until marriage, combined with hardcore statistics and such for the kids to do what they wanted with...


----------



## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

3. Full penetration is not required for pregnancy to occur. Example: Pregnancy can occur with anal sex if seminal fluid spills/leaks/runs on the vulva or vagina. Technically anal sex wont cause pregnancy but there is a possibility that the seminal fluids will leak, get on or in the vagina. I know that is more than just touching but many people are aware that full penetration is not required for pregnancy. My sister was conceived by my mom's boyfriend just barely in vaginally. My mom told him to stop and put on a condom but it was too late. She made sure we knew that pregnancy can happen with out penetration and just little spills.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1060.html

1. Abortion is a medical procedure. Infection and scaring can happen causing sterility. Death of the woman can happen after an abortion. No medical procedure is risk free (circumcision is also a big example of misinformation and ignored long term effects on the person). As for suicide I think there is more to the situation but many women that get abortion also get or are depressed. An abortion could be a final straw. There is no clear what cause what on this suicide after abortion. Giving live healthy birth can cause the same thing.

You have your antiabortionist that demonizes and misuse the facts. To them it is as simple as if the woman had not gotten abortion she would not have been depressed enough to kill her self. Then you have the pro-choice that minimize, try to downplay, and/or ignore the issues and IMO do not push for enough after care of the woman.

2.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

So, not all abstinence education programs are full of lies. Ours was mainly the group members sharing stories of why they chose to remain abstinent or why they chose stop having sex and wait until marriage, combined with hardcore statistics and such for the kids to do what they wanted with...
What did the program teach about masturbation? And why nothing about homosexuality? For gay kids, since there is no risk of pregnancy, they may need to hear other reasons why they should wait until they are in a loving relationship to have sex.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

I wish they'd teach that half the straight male teens tested are HIV-Positive.








Citation please.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

You've always got to consider the source...

Some Christian groups are traveling to Africa telling everyone of "research" that shows condoms actually cause the AIDS virus.







More of their "research" demonstrates that condoms are full of worms that cause parasites. Where do they come up with this?! Can't they just stick with the "condoms and birth control are for sinners, you starving overpopulated 3rd world people with AIDS!"








T
The countries with the highest rates of AIDS - South Africa and India - have more religious beliefs that prohibit condom use, and that are strictly against divorce, even for a wife of an HIV+ man.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*







Citation please.

Well, I figure it's just as likely as their claim that half of gay male teens have AIDS. And it's more likely to stop teenage pregnancies than the gay male teen statistic.

I was being facetious. I am sickened that they teach that half the gay male teens tested positive for AIDS. They're using a stereotype, lies, and homophobia to scare kids out of homosexuality - and away from being friends with homosexuals. It's disgusting. And it's yet another example of how abstinence-only "education" is religious-based. Not based on facts. Not based on science.

It does NOT belong in the public schools.


----------



## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

We were taught abstinence in school. It was the best way to prevent pregnancy and spread of disease. Never were we taught it was dirty or gross. We also dsiscussed masturbation and just about everything else....makes me think my helth class was quite "liberal" for the area :LOL

They say these things as scare tactics. but they don't work. They need to grow up and deal with kids like they should be with truth and not rumors, or assumptions. They try to tell them the bad things in order to avoid the topic all together and it does nothing for anyone. Tell the truth...it goes farther than lies. kwim?


----------



## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

>Some Christian groups are traveling to Africa telling everyone of "research" that shows condoms actually cause the AIDS virus. More of their "research" demonstrates that condoms are full of worms that cause parasites. Where do they come up with this?! Can't they just stick with the "condoms and birth control are for sinners, you starving overpopulated 3rd world people with AIDS!"










I'm curious where you heard this. (a link, perhaps, would be helpful) *All* the missionary organizations I had any contact with or knowledge of were gung-ho for birth control (and in dh's country, have been for decades). They pushed it hard on the native members, and we had some missionary aquiantances who were reprimanded for having a 3rd, and then a 4th child.







The Lutheran branch there was directly working with Planned Parenthood for 'reproductive health' projects. I have actually found missionaries to be much, much more interested in encouraging the use of birth control than those in thier denominations that stay at home.
Dh and quite a large number of other natives happen to think all of that is a bane to thier people, not a blessing, Western whites buldozing in with thier white, wealthy, Western values. "I don't care that your government is corrupt and causing the problems you have with poverty, famine, and disease. Can't do anything about that. My goal is just to make sure the poor natives aren't stupid enough to have more than two children" is the attitude that he has picked up. Perhaps thier presentation was just unfortunate, but it really turned him off the whole idea.

Research, though...Who has had the most success in reducing AIDs in Africa?

http://www.imb.org/core/story.asp?st...anguageID=1709

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...enni043003.asp

I'm sure some abstinence only programs are pretty darn stupid in presentation and lack of facts. Some people think that ignoring our sexual design will keep thier kids from having sex, and that is dumb, no question.

However, to say that abstinence "doesn't work" is kind of silly, as it is the *only* fail-safe method of preventing against pregnancy and STD's. And to say that teens will have sex regardless of what they're taught, well, that's a little silly too, no offense intended.
I'm living proof. Dh is even better, because he was a virgin until our wedding night, when he was 29. It is possible to teach our children the facts of life, and that sex is a wonderful and pleasurable gift from God, and simultaneously instill in them the understanding that it is best reserved for committed marriage and why. And that is what we fully intend to do.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It was something I learned in an upper-division public health class about STDs. I'm sure it's not representative of all missionaries.

I think it's better to have sex and use a condom with someone to whom you are not married than it is to have unprotected sex with a husband you know is HIV+. In some of these countries there is such a huge stigma attached to a woman not having any children that they would have sex with these men just to have a child, and then become infected in the process.

And why can't the missionaries teach the South Africans that raping babies does not cure AIDS?!







(Or maybe they do, and the people just don't believe them.







)

Abstinence should be taught (though I still don't see why it's the school's place to do this) as an option, and as the only 100% option. (Although there are other ways to get AIDS, and in rare cases pregnancy can happen w/o intercourse.) I don't want my children to grow up thinking there are limited options. And abstinence teaching should not be shame-based. I want my children to learn "If you have sex, you may be at risk for pregnancy" not "If you have sex, you are dirty and no man will respect you."


----------



## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
And why can't the missionaries teach the South Africans that raping babies does not cure AIDS?!







(Or maybe they do, and the people just don't believe them.







)

I don't know of any Christian person, no matter how nutty-conservative, who wouldn't revile such behavior and bluntly condemn it. It's probably best not to assume that they're silent about it, unless we actually see them being silent about it. It would be a huge violation of the Christian faith to ignore (and worse, to promote) the rape of babies.

As far as abstinence being partly shame-based. Well, I guess I'd be put in that category







: , although I would never say sex outside of marriage makes one a dirty, vile, unlovable so-and-so. I would say it is wrong behavior according to our faith though. But not to the exclusion of innumerable other wrong behaviors that are totally non-sex-related. It needs balance. Too much emphasis on sex can be a problem-maker, regardless of what your view is.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
We provided the scientifically proven evidence that the aids virus is smaller than the holes in condoms.

Can you provide a link for this?

I know the Vatican came out with this claim, and it was shot down by scientists and medical personnel worldwide.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
However, to say that abstinence "doesn't work" is kind of silly, as it is the *only* fail-safe method of preventing against pregnancy and STD's. And to say that teens will have sex regardless of what they're taught, well, that's a little silly too, no offense intended.
I'm living proof. Dh is even better, because he was a virgin until our wedding night, when he was 29. It is possible to teach our children the facts of life, and that sex is a wonderful and pleasurable gift from God, and simultaneously instill in them the understanding that it is best reserved for committed marriage and why. And that is what we fully intend to do.

I have never said that abstinence doesn't work. I have said that abstinence-only "education" doesn't work. And there is a tremendous amount of evidence that shows it has failed. And I believe that it doesn't belong in public schools. It is a religious-based program. Religion should not be taught in public schools.

I don't care what you do or do not teach your children. I DO care, however, what my children are taught. God, marriage, etc. should not be pushed on my child. The idea that sex is for married people is a RELIGIOUS idea. I honestly don't care if my child has pre-marital sex. I don't care if my kid ever gets married. It doesn't matter to me at all. I do care that my child is fully educated on sexual matters - in a secular way. No "you are sinful and dirty if you have sex". No "pre-marital sex is evil". No "abstinence is the only choice for you!"
My child DESERVES to have ALL of the FACTUAL information possible before making that decision. That includes how to have safer sex, how to say no, how to recognize it when someone else says no, how STDs are spread, and how to prevent them, and the possible consequences of having sex before he is emotionally and physically ready for it. Abstinence should only be ONE aspect of a public school's sex ed curriculum.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
You've always got to consider the source...

Some Christian groups are traveling to Africa telling everyone of "research" that shows condoms actually cause the AIDS virus.








More of their "research" demonstrates that condoms are full of worms that cause parasites. Where do they come up with this?! Can't they just stick with the "condoms and birth control are for sinners, you starving overpopulated 3rd world people with AIDS!"

I've read this as well. I'm trying to find where - checking PP and AGI. Haven't found it yet. I'll let you know if I do!


----------



## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I have a question. I hope it doesn't come across as too naive. My question is Why? Why do the schools not teach about masturbation in a sex ed. class? Why do they give false facts? Do they not know any better themselves? Why do they not teach about homosexuality? It doesn't make sense. If the goal of what they are doing is to protect kids and prevent the spread of AIDS and prevent abortion, then wouldn't it be common sense to teach kids about sexuality as fully as they teach them about other aspects of this world? And to teach them about drugs too? They should have a class called Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll. I bet there'd be a lower drop-out rate if they did.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think love is the most important part of a sexual relationship, not marriage. There are legal marriages that are really unhealthy and unfulfilling, and unmarried people who love each other.


----------



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
And why can't the missionaries teach the South Africans that raping babies does not cure AIDS?!







(Or maybe they do, and the people just don't believe them.







)



Capp: Regaurding your question of this: What Grease was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Grease) is not that the missionaries teach this, but that this is a somewhat common belief held amongst certain 3rd world cultures. It's basically kind of a "You got the AIDS from having sex with someone who had the virus, so you can get rid of it by having sex with someone who doesn't have it", and unfortunately many babies and young children (those who can be assured as virgins, therefore--in their eyes--not having been exposed to AIDS) are raped.

I think Grease's point was that she (and I) would like to see this myth dispelled, as it is obviously one harmful piece of CRAP.

HTH,
Kelly


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

We provided the scientifically proven evidence that the aids virus is smaller than the holes in condoms.
Then don't put holes in condoms, eh?









Actually want we heard back in the 80's was that the natural openings, between cells, in sheepskin condoms could let the HIV through, but that this is not true of latex condoms. So that is not true of the condoms recommended for safer sex, latex.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

What Grease was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Grease) is not that the missionaries teach this, but that this is a somewhat common belief held amongst certain 3rd world cultures.
Yes, that's right. Instead of teaching that condoms are full of worms, they could spend more time on something worthwhile, like teaching them you can't just pass HIV along to someone else and then be rid of it.

Also, in some cultures, fertility must be proven before marriage, so it wouldn't really work to tell them "Don't be a louse; save it for your spouse!"

But since they're going to Hell anyway, maybe it doesn't matter. :LOL


----------



## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Abstinence programs to me are not 100% because one day our children are going to have sex and the only reliable info. they will have is how not to have sex!!

We need to teach our children about sex and make them knowledgable about their bodies to make the right choice.

Also, GWB has promised 15 million to help stop AIDS, yet will not sign the $34 million aid because of the use of words like condom?? I am scared of what this administration might teach my child. Therefore, I am trying my best to get ready for "the talk"


----------



## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Isleta, there is no one Talk. It's an ongoing conversation from the time they're old enough to know Mom is different from Dad, or similar sort of observations.

I've got books geared for 3 and up because that's how I help myself to have these discussions sometimes. It's easier to read then discuss, or look at pictures and discuss......

With DS at 4, it was nature shows on PBS and Discovery that got conversations going.
"Mommy, do you and Daddy mate?"


----------



## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

I agree with teaching early. Just be open and honest with kids, and answer their questions. The hard part for me was DS didn't ask many questions, so I had to introduce some info., but it went well. I hope my kids learn enough to know that if they won't wait until adults, they can at least come to me for birth control and advice.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

The hard part for me was DS didn't ask many questions, so I had to introduce some info., but it went well.
Can I ask you for further explanation of "how" and "when"? As DD approaches six I think she should have a bit more info, but keep waiting for her to ask









Feel free to take this to PM if you would prefer!

TIA,
Kay


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I don't understand the hard part of telling little kids about reproduction. We know how it goes...why can't we just say it? Or read a book written for kids? It seems a lot of people are just trying to delay telling about the actual penetration part, and hope their kids will just figure it out on their own. Wouldn't a more up-front approach be better?


----------



## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I downloaded the full report from the senator that comissioned it. Fascinating.

http://www.democrats.reform.house.go...2153-50247.pdf

They analyzed 13 specific packaged curriculum for abstinence-only education. The found glaring errors in 11 of the curricula. But, they use a lot of CDC statistics to refute the errors, so you'll have to decide what you all think about that.

Notworthy items:
A number of the units use a 1993 report by Susan Weller to say that condoms only prevent 69% of HIV transmission. THe Dept of Health and Human Svs refutes this in a 1997 statement. The study mixes "consistent condom use" with inconsistent condom use." So basically, YES, if you don't use the condom consistently or properly YES - you can AIDS. That, to me, was the whole point of sex ed. To get more people on the consistent and proper use pool.

Another one uses the increased rate of Chlamydia as proof that increased condom use hasn't decreased STDs. BUT: syphillis and gonnorhea HAVE dropped over the last decade. The rise in Chlamydia is attributed to increased detection, esp in non-sympotmatic women.

The abortion data used, seems to date from the 1970s. But the rate of complications from abortions has dramatically declined from the 70s to the 90s, especially given modern surgical techniques. Go ahead and read it - it is EYE opening.

I'm just so FUMING.....


----------



## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*







T
The countries with the highest rates of AIDS - South Africa and India - have more religious beliefs that prohibit condom use, and that are strictly against divorce, even for a wife of an HIV+ man.









T

South Africa is a highly Christian culture. They are superstitious beliefs rather than religious ones, IMO.


----------



## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
What did the program teach about masturbation? And why nothing about homosexuality? For gay kids, since there is no risk of pregnancy, they may need to hear other reasons why they should wait until they are in a loving relationship to have sex.

We didn't talk about masturbation...good or bad. Our primary goals were stopping the risk of std's and unplanned pregnancies. We also never talked about homosexuality because none of the group members had experience with homosexual relationships. However, if a student asked a question about it, we always treated it the same as any other sexual relationship, for the very reason you mentioned...loving relationships (and std's).


----------



## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

jon stewart discusses abstinence programs and "the teen sex craze..."

"false, false, and... WHOA IS THAT FALSE!"

http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_show...ithjonstewart/

(btw, sounds like he has a bad cold, poor baby.)


----------

