# I am so tired of hearing how lenient we are!



## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

Why does everyone feel the need to tell us that we are too lenient. We rarely yell. We don't hit. We sit and have talks with them. They are really good kids! I am just SO TIRED of other people's opinions/judgments on how we should be more strict. We believe in what we are doing and we have great relationships with our children. BACK OFF!!!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Who is stepping in to tell you this?


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I hear ya!

I too have great, not perfect children and get the "too lenient" vibe.

Who is saying it to you?

I get it in a "I do this to get my kid to do that" and it's something they know I would never do(spank, sleep train, cio, time out) in a way that tries to make me have to defend my parenting. I have a cousin who is particularly bad for this, we have kids the same age.

Or I get "well you've been lucky you didn't have to spank" as though I don't spank because I was blessed with wonderful easy kids instead of that it was a choice we made etc.

I've taken to saying "I love the way things are going with my kids" and move on.


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## ma_vie_en_rose (Jun 7, 2008)

I would probably just say something to them like, "Well, I think we have our situation handled based on how well behaved they are. Thank you." and then leave it at that.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Let's not confuse discipline standards with discipline methods...

They are VERY different things.

I'm strict. I have no tolerance for annoying behavior. I never have.

But - I practice GD. We will never spank, we almost never yell, I really really don't like time-outs. We plan to use (and have started) natural consequences and logical when natural isn't appropriate.

But it doesn't mean we have to put up with crap. My DD is 21 months - so she's still young. But I've been a nanny and babysat forever. And I have never felt compelled to put up with stuff.

I figure that if we all have to live together - then none of us have the right to make the other ones miserable. So we have to abide by simple guidelines and rules to make sure that happens.

Being lenient is the opposite of strict. Many parents who spank, yell, shame, do CIO, etc. are lenient.

Lenient has NOTHING to do with gentle discipline or not.


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## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

As someone who's on the outside looking in, I'd have to say these things. I do appreciate when parents are there to tell thier children "Honey, we don't ________ because ________." I appreciate that people aren't hitting thier children. I appreciate people (Honestly you are my heroes) who take thier crying children out of my store rather than letting them cio inside.
BUT you must be there to do the patrenting, or actually parent the child. I can't tell you the number of times I've been in the children's section and there are kids there alone. Tearing pages out of books, using the sticker-books or activity books, or my favorite.. the ones who are so young, they're actually eating the books. Then when I have the audacity to ask the little ones where thier parent is, and have the further audacity to page them on the overhead, _I_ get the stink-eye, or a lecture about age-appropriate behavior, or whatever. And heaven forfend I ask what they are planning on doing about the damaged items. Oh, and more often, the parents are right there. Doing nothing. And are honestly very angry when I gently take a book away and say "Books are not for eating." or "Sorry, you shouldn't play with this, as it's not yours."







: I can't win.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Very gentley, but if you hear this alot perhaps you should look at how your children are percieved by others? Are people responding to your discipline style (which might be unusual in your area) or the behavior of your children? I have, unfortunately, seen lots of "GD" parents who forget that discipline is still part of the package and instead seem to think that "kids should be kids" means that they should be allowed to destroy other's property, yell and shout at inappropriate times and places, act rudely, and so forth.

Of course if your children are well behaved (and I don't know one way or the other), then you just shrug and say "I think we've found something that works better for us" and let it go. People have opinions about everything, especially about children. I just treat it the same way I treat people who have an opinion about what I should, or shouldn't, be eating or whatever.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

My children are well behaved. They are never the ones that are running around and being rough. I would never dream on my kids tearing pages out of books or destroying other's property. They are not angels but if I am being honest..they are never really the kids that need to be talked to. My 2yo son will hit if someone tries to take a toy from him. We explain Ouch and show him how it made the other child feel. Did you want to give him a hug or say sorry? Then we distract him and get him interested in something else. If one of my children interrupts I will tell her gently..can you please say excuse me and wait patiently? I feel we respect our children. We don't rush to send them to time-outs or yell. The only time they will get a relax time is if say my 2yo continuously pulls his sisters hair or something like that. We feel he needs some time to calm down. Usually it is my mom or sister who will say this. Maybe it is because if one of my children would hit (can't think of a time that they have..the girls anyways) we have a talk with them and find out why they did it and try to point out how the other child feels and give them the opportunity to apologize. It isn't because my children are all over the place and misbehaving. I am not sure why family has such a problem with the way we are with our children.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

I'm with you, mama. It drives me crazy. My inlaws are the worst about it. Since ds was born, they've felt the need to judge our parenting. The latest is that we need to send ds to preschool so that he learns to do as he's told, and to have a "schedule other than his own." They think we just let him do whatever he wants, and that he has no discipline. Drives me nuts. They just need to mind their own business. I used to try educating them with info about cosleeping, for example, but it made no difference. I've gotten really mad and offended about it, too, especially when their critical of my son's behavior. Now I limit our time with them, avoid triggering situations (sitting on the couch in the evening while they get tipsy) and try really hard to ignore them.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

My parents have dubbed our house "the yes house" because I allow all kinds of things that would never be allowed at her house. Mostly this has to do with making messes and self regulating sleep and food. It used to bug me since it seemed like a criticism. Now it's a family joke and I have come to see that my Mom is a wee bit jealous of my ability to go with the flow.

My in-laws have spoken to my husband about us not letting DD "get her own way". Because of course "she has to learn". What sparked this? DD wanted Grandma to trick-or-treat with her instead of Daddy when she was 3. She went on to have a mini melt down about it so we took a few minutes to work it out with the result being Daddy did not go with us. Oh the horror! We are just the most lenient parents ever!

My husbands family just doesn't get us at all. And they definitely don't get DD's spirited behavior.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Very gentley, but if you hear this alot perhaps you should look at how your children are percieved by others?


I thought the same thing. I find it hard to believe that you would repeatedly get comments about how lenient you are if people did not see a problem with your childrens behavior. Maybe their expectations are unreasonable or something but I doubt they would make that comment if they didn't see a problem.

eta: I just read that it's your mom and sister commenting. it could be just a family dynamic then. Brush it off!


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I thought the same thing. I find it hard to believe that you would repeatedly get comments about how lenient you are if people did not see a problem with your childrens behavior. Maybe their expectations are unreasonable or something but I doubt they would make that comment if they didn't see a problem.

eta: I just read that it's your mom and sister commenting. it could be just a family dynamic then. Brush it off!

Sometimes you get comments about how lenient you are based on your behaviour rather than your child's. I've gotten them when my child has been in the middle of a tantrum and I've consoled her instead of punishing her. So she not only got away with having a tantrum but she got rewarded with positive attention for it which means she's going to do more and more of it according to the person doing the critique.









Or if your child bites someone and you don't bite them back.

Or if you don't make your children say please and thank you but rather have them learn from modelling it.

Or if you say you are opposed to corporal punishment.

Or if you teach your child safe-sex instead of abstinence only.

Or if you allow your child to go to an alternative high school.

All of these things make people think I'm too lenient while I just think I'm different.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Let's not confuse discipline standards with discipline methods...

They are VERY different things.

I'm strict. I have no tolerance for annoying behavior. I never have...But it doesn't mean we have to put up with crap. My DD is 21 months - so she's still young. But I've been a nanny and babysat forever. And I have never felt compelled to put up with stuff.

Well, I say let's not confuse an individual's discipline standards with a universal ideal. My goals for discipline are teaching my child compassion, independence, self-reliance, and confidence (just off the top of my head.) Teaching them to always do as I ask, well, that's way down on the list.

I just can't imagine caring for children with "no tolerance for annoying behavior." I get annoyed with my kids all the time. Maybe your tolerance level is a lot higher than mine. I happen to find a lot of age-appropriate behaviors annoying (difficulty with transitions, the endless 'why?', tantrums, grabbing things in stores...), but I see that as my problem, not theirs, and certainly not an indication that they need to change. They will change. When they get older.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
I figure that if we all have to live together - then none of us have the right to make the other ones miserable.

Absolutely agreed. But I tend to induce "misery" a whole lot more often than they do, hence the tantrums. Sometimes leaving a place before you're ready can be devastating for a young child, whereas it's no big deal to me to stay 10 minutes longer. So I stay a few more minutes instead of saying 'we're leaving because I said it's time to go' (This is something that drives inlaws crazy.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
Sometimes you get comments about how lenient you are based on your behaviour rather than your child's. I've gotten them when my child has been in the middle of a tantrum and I've consoled her instead of punishing her...All of these things make people think I'm too lenient while I just think I'm different.









Allgirls, I'm going to start stalking you on this board. I always love to read your posts.

I admit I'm lenient. I'm proud of this. 5 years ago, I was a different person. I was less patient, less focused on the needs of other people, more stubborn, more sure I was always right. I see it as progress, not a fault. So yup, I negotiate with my kids. All the time. Their feelings are just as important as mine are. It's different priorities, too. I say yes a lot. I feel that it teaches generosity and caring. I can change my mind. Standing firm on everything that comes out of my mouth, well, that teaches stubbornness. Consoling a child during a tantrum teaches empathy and compassion. All of these things are interpreted by my inlaws as me being "too lenient." But for me they are just right.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Think of Winter* 
Well, I say let's not confuse an individual's discipline standards with a universal ideal. My goals for discipline are teaching my child compassion, independence, self-reliance, and confidence (just off the top of my head.) Teaching them to always do as I ask, well, that's way down on the list.

I agree with this. I really think of discipline as teaching. But that doesn't mean I need to be screamed at or have things thrown at me.

I encourage and teach my child to talk about her feelings - but that doesn't mean I need to be subjected to a tantrum.

I'm VERY flexible about pretty much everything. I make very few demands on her. Like this morning. She didn't want to put on her shoes. So - I carried her to the car. I'm not going to fight with her about putting on shoes, but I'm also not going to let her wreck her tights by walking to the car in them. So she had to choose between letting me put her shoes on - or letting me carry her to the car.

Quote:

I just can't imagine caring for children with "no tolerance for annoying behavior." I get annoyed with my kids all the time. Maybe your tolerance level is a lot higher than mine. I happen to find a lot of age-appropriate behaviors annoying (difficulty with transitions, the endless 'why?', tantrums, grabbing things in stores...), but I see that as my problem, not theirs, and certainly not an indication that they need to change. They will change. When they get older.
I don't find those things annoying at first. Some of them bug me - so I work on them.

I find it annoying when she screams and cries when we leave the park. So - we came up with a transition plan which works - and expect that if we do our part (spend an amount of time which is reasonable to her, give her warnings, let her choose the last thing, and then sing the leaving song) that she will do her part and say bye-bye to the park. But, since she's 21 months, we're open to doing the last 2 steps of our part of the routine a second time if we need to.

I find her screaming when frustrated with a toy to be something that pushes my buttons. Maybe it's "age appropriate" - but I really hate that term.

I can't live with a screamer - so we created expectation that she would say "help please" instead of screaming. It really didn't take long of responding to her screaming about a toy with "Oh - you sound frustrated with that toy - remember that if you need help you should say "help please"" for it to stop. I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. Screaming makes my blood boil - and I refuse to give into it.

But - most little kid stuff doesn't really bug me.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Think of Winter* 
So yup, I negotiate with my kids. All the time. Their feelings are just as important as mine are. It's different priorities, too. I say yes a lot. I feel that it teaches generosity and caring. I can change my mind. Standing firm on everything that comes out of my mouth, well, that teaches stubbornness. Consoling a child during a tantrum teaches empathy and compassion. All of these things are interpreted by my inlaws as me being "too lenient." But for me they are just right.









I don't think that negotiating is being "lenient". One of my good friends is pretty strict - but she is open to negotiation all the time.

I think that lenient is once a decision has been reached (in our family - we all contribute) going back on it.

And why does being strict (as opposed to being lenient) make you think that a parent wouldn't be compassionate?????? That doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't give DD candy before supper last night. I held firm to that. But I still sat with her and comforted her as she worked through her feelings. What does that has to do with lenient/strict?


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
My in-laws have spoken to my husband about us not letting DD "get her own way". Because of course "she has to learn". What sparked this? DD wanted Grandma to trick-or-treat with her instead of Daddy when she was 3. She went on to have a mini melt down about it so we took a few minutes to work it out with the result being Daddy did not go with us. Oh the horror! We are just the most lenient parents ever!

I don't mean to pick on you - but this is an interesting example.

I guess a different perspective on that situation would be - why does one person get to dictate what another can do? Why did your 3yo (and her age doesn't matter - that's just an identifier) get to dictate that her dad wasn't allowed to go? Why shouldn't he be able to see his DD go trick-or-treating?

I don't see your example as "lenient"...


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
And why does being strict (as opposed to being lenient) make you think that a parent wouldn't be compassionate?????? That doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't give DD candy before supper last night. I held firm to that. But I still sat with her and comforted her as she worked through her feelings. What does that has to do with lenient/strict?

Mmm, I didn't say that. I got from your first message in this thread that "lenient" is a bad thing. Perhaps I misunderstood. The point I was trying to make is that some people's "too lenient" is another family's strength. I'm not judging any of your parenting decisions. In fact, that's what this thread is about, not judging others.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Think of Winter* 
Mmm, I didn't say that. I got from your first message in this thread that "lenient" is a bad thing. Perhaps I misunderstood. The point I was trying to make is that some people's "too lenient" is another family's strength. I'm not judging any of your parenting decisions. In fact, that's what this thread is about, not judging others.

OK.

It seemed like you were saying that you'd rather show compassion than stand firm on what you'd said. And I guess I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.

I think that you can be strict and compassionate. I can empathize with my child without giving in to her. And I do. I don't see that as a "lenient/strict" issue.

I will also say that I think that you can be both lenient and strict. I let DD do alot of things that many other parents don't. I don't mind her standing on the coffee table. I don't mind her jumping from the coffee table to the couch. But - we have rules in place about it. She can't climb on the coffee table when there is food on it. And she can't jump onto the couch if there are people sitting on it. And we don't bend on those rules. ?


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Evan&Anna's_Mom;12139247 said:


> Very gentley, but if you hear this alot perhaps you should look at how your children are percieved by others? Are people responding to your discipline style (which might be unusual in your area) or the behavior of your children? I have, unfortunately, seen lots of "GD" parents who forget that discipline is still part of the package and instead seem to think that "kids should be kids" means that they should be allowed to destroy other's property, yell and shout at inappropriate times and places, act rudely, and so forth.
> 
> QUOTE]
> This is what I first think when I read these threads. I don't know if your children are well behaved or not so it's just a question.
> ...


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

i've been told that i am pretty strict by other mothers but none of that baloney bothers me. because it normally comes from a mother who only says "yes" to her child. and this kind of parenting is on the rise.

Is there a book out that I don't know about that explains this new philosophy of only saying "yes" to a child.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 
i've been told that i am pretty strict by other mothers but none of that baloney bothers me. because it normally comes from a mother who only says "yes" to her child. and this kind of parenting is on the rise.

Is there a book out that I don't know about that explains this new philosophy of only saying "yes" to a child.

I've never met a mother who only says 'yes' to her child. I've written that I do say yes when I can, and that's in a lot of parenting books. That does not mean that I'm not firm about anything.

*Kiera09*, I think you and I are actually on the same page about a lot of things. There are lots of behaviors that I don't accept from my kids, and lots of things that I say 'no' to. But I don't always choose the same things to stand firm on that other people might.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Think of Winter* 
I've never met a mother who only says 'yes' to her child. I've written that I do say yes when I can, and that's in a lot of parenting books. That does not mean that I'm not firm about anything.

*Kiera09*, I think you and I are actually on the same page about a lot of things. There are lots of behaviors that I don't accept from my kids, and lots of things that I say 'no' to. But I don't always choose the same things to stand firm on that other people might.

oops...I wasn't talking to you. i didn't even read the other comments, i was just posting my personal experience.

on the other hand, i have met several mothers who only say yes.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Think of Winter* 
*Kiera09*, I think you and I are actually on the same page about a lot of things. There are lots of behaviors that I don't accept from my kids, and lots of things that I say 'no' to. But I don't always choose the same things to stand firm on that other people might.

I guess I have a problem with the idea of "not standing firm". Maybe we're thinking about different things.

I will never change my mind on something (with small children) _during_ a fit. I will wait until the kid is calm - and then we can discuss it again. If I'm asked politely/respectfully to do something different - there is a chance I might. But while the fit is happening, I will comfort and empathize and be compassionate - but I will never change my mind. With an old kid (like 8+) a fit would mean that I wasn't going to change my mind at all.

I really don't like tantrums - so I don't give into them.

But what I see alot (and this is my own experience coming into things) is parents I know IRL - will say "no - not right now" and their kid will throw a fit and the parent will say "Oh, I see it's really important to you - OK"... And that drives me CRAZY.

I have family that does it. "Can I have the pink cup?" "I already poured your milk into the yellow one" "wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - I want the pink cup" "fine - here's a pink cup"...

But again, to me that has nothing to do with being lenient. It has more to do with being a push-over and letting your kids rule the house.

I want to live with my kids. I don't want to dictate any more to them than I absolutely have to, but in the same vein - I dictated to any more than I have to. Obviously, when my DD was a newborn - she dictated our every move. I woke every hour to 2 hours to nurse her all night long. Car trips/errands were planned around her schedule. We only went to restaurants that were baby compatible.

As she nears 2 - her capacity to work on compromises and find common ground is increasing. And things are getting alot more CL. She helps put laundry away, she helps us unload the dishwasher, she clears her plate when she's done eating. If it's a TV night - we'll watch 1 episode of Dora for her, and then DH and I will watch one show.

We all have to work together to make our family work.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

People comment on how patient dp and I are...which I find funny since I don't think we're all that patient.

I get it around the fact that it's okay if my kids are messy, okay if my kid wants some more time on the playground, okay if my kid decides whether or not to eat something....Really stuff I consider nobody's business.

My kids are actually nice people who play well with others. And practice musical instruments, learned to read, set the table, help with yard work.

I get the lenient thing here at MDC mostly from parents that identify as being strict.

I will change my mind while my kid is having a fit, especially at those very young ages where words sometimes escape them. It didn't seem to ruin them, thank goodness. They are still very willing to work with me even when I'm not operating at my finest level.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 

Is there a book out that I don't know about that explains this new philosophy of only saying "yes" to a child.


I don't think so, or at least I haven't read it.

I do rarely say "no" but that is not the same always saying yes. That for me just means I tell my children what they might do to replace what they are doing.

example.

Jumping on Grandma's couch...instead of "no, don't jump on Grandma's couch!" I might say "let's jump on the trampoline" (can anyone tell that's a made-up example because Grandma just happens to have a trampoline right







)

But no, a mother that only says yes...don't know one in real life









I do know parents who pretty much buy their kids whatever they ask for though but they say no to other things so that's not what you are thinking of is it?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't give into tantrums and never have, but I don't get the issue with pouring milk from a yellow cup to a pink cup if the child wants a pink cup. I don't see how that's being a pushover at all. And I don't consider a voiced disagreement, even stated as "waaaaaaaaaaaah", to be a tantrum or a problem. Young kids disagree differently than adults. To say no simply because you're the adult, and thinking every time you say yes after your child disagrees makes you a "pushover", seems unnecessarily adversarial to me.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 

I have family that does it. "Can I have the pink cup?" "I already poured your milk into the yellow one" "wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - I want the pink cup" "fine - here's a pink cup"...

I do this with my nearly 3 year old and I did it with my 5 year old. For me it was more about choosing my battles. I probably did it with my older girls too, don't remember.

Not worth the power struggle. Sitting in her carseat, worth the power struggle, washing an extra cup, no biggie









However she only does it occasionally now and my 5 year old doesn't do it at all anymore. So yeah, not a big deal for me.

So I guess I'm a pushover


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I do know parents who pretty much buy their kids whatever they ask for though but they say no to other things so that's not what you are thinking of is it?

no. i really thought there was a book.
parents buying there children whatever they want is not new.

because i have heard of a new philosophy that parents are getting into where they never say no to a child. i'mma do some research and get back to you.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I think it's more about using the actual word "no" than about telling a child they can't have something. I do try to avoid use of the word "no" because I think it doesn't communicate as much as other answers, like, "We are buying a present for your cousin's birthday today, and we aren't buying anything for ourselves." Or maybe, "When we get home, why don't you put that on your list of things you want so I don't forget when your birthday comes." At my daughter's age, the word "no" is immediately followed by "why not?" anyway. Might as well take care of that in the first place.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't give into tantrums and never have, but I don't get the issue with pouring milk from a yellow cup to a pink cup if the child wants a pink cup. I don't see how that's being a pushover at all. And I don't consider a voiced disagreement, even stated as "waaaaaaaaaaaah", to be a tantrum or a problem. Young kids disagree differently than adults. To say no simply because you're the adult, and thinking every time you say yes after your child disagrees makes you a "pushover", seems unnecessarily adversarial to me.

I wash the dishes. I'm not washing an extra cup.

I'm happy to entertain a request made ahead of time. And when I babysat this summer - the girl learned to answer questions like "what would you like to drink" with "milk in a pink cup, please". And - if I could - I would honor the request. I wouldn't wash a dirty cup just for her to have a pink one, if there were clean cups. And I tried hard to honor her preferences by preemptively dishing her food onto pink plates and pink bowls.

And I understand that children have different capacities. With a little kid I'm very understanding. If they disagree with something by crying - then I will talk them through it. But I still don't give in/change my mind until they ask in an age sensitive polite way. My 21 month old doesn't normally say please. But she will sign it. So most of her requests end up being a few words followed by a sign. I'm cool with that. But - I don't get her more juice if she shoves the cup into my face and yells "mo juice, mo juice". I'll ask her if she wants more juice and when she nodds - I'll ask her if she can ask politely by saying "more juice please". Then I wait until she does.


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## BabyBearsMummy (Jan 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
Why does everyone feel the need to tell us that we are too lenient. We rarely yell. We don't hit. We sit and have talks with them. They are really good kids! I am just SO TIRED of other people's opinions/judgments on how we should be more strict. We believe in what we are doing and we have great relationships with our children. BACK OFF!!!


LOL :that: only I am so sick of hearing it this way from my grandmother "whos the boss". We are a family unit and I dont see how anyone in a family needs to be the boss. I intend to work with my DD so that she developes her own inner morals instead of "controlling" her.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 

because i have heard of a new philosophy that parents are getting into where they never say no to a child. i'mma do some research and get back to you.


yeah..that's not exactly what it is though. It's more of rephrasing things in a more positive way and not using the word "no". It's not about never saying "no" or setting boundaries, it's about setting those boundaries in a more positive way, with more positive speech.

Like the example of jumping on grandma's couch I gave...doesn't use the word "no" but does still set the boundary.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

If you are looking for a book with this philosophy you can check out "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Khon. It may not be exactly what you are talking about though. He says why say no? A parent should think before answering. Often we say no because it is more convenient or we are adults and just say it automatically. I do look at where I can say yes. For ex. My daughter Amelie doesn't like to wear PJ's to bed. She asked if she could sleep in her underwear. My first thought was no. Kids should sleep in pajamas. After rethinking it it didn't make any sense. Really look at how often you as a parent says no. You may be surprised. I sure was. Now I think before I answer and it has changed my way of parenting.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
If you are looking for a book with this philosophy you can check out "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Khon. It may not be exactly what you are talking about though. He says why say no? A parent should think before answering. Often we say no because it is more convenient or we are adults and just say it automatically. I do look at where I can say yes. For ex. My daughter Amelie doesn't like to wear PJ's to bed. She asked if she could sleep in her underwear. My first thought was no. Kids should sleep in pajamas. After rethinking it it didn't make any sense. Really look at how often you as a parent says no. You may be surprised. I sure was. Now I think before I answer and it has changed my way of parenting.

Do you really think that not insisting on PJ's is being "lenient"?

It's her body.

I guess to me that has nothing to do with being lenient.

I agree about thinking before answering - and I try very hard to do so. I guess that just seems different from the strict/lenient debate.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

This is a thread where I think it's all about style, not which way is preferable.

Another thought I had is that it's easy to get annoyed with someone else's child. I feel irritated by behavior in other people's kids all the time. I have a much higher tolerance and patience for my own kids because I love them more than I can say. We all love our kids and I think that's why we can be more patient with them. So perhaps people are feeling pretty ruffled inside by your child's behavior and aren't satisfied by your intervention. I'm not saying it's valid, but perhaps that is the feeling and process going on for them...particularly if it's relatives you're talking about. I can see the irritation in my MIL's face all the time and it makes me want to be even gentler with my boys.









We all have different limits and boundaries. I don't mind washing dishes so that my kids eat out of what they desire. I also can totally relate to the pp who said she doesn't want to -- I think that's perfectly reasonable. With the jumping on Grandma's couch, I personally see nothing wrong at all with stating that Grandma doesn't want them doing that. It's true. And then provide an alternative. But if you feel strongly not to say the word "no", then that's you're choice. Personally, I understand the philosophy but don't buy it entirely.

I love what a pp said about looking at how many times you say "no". I've done that and totally changed my tune. Sometimes I will sway toward "no" and then chat about it more with my child, own the fact that he has a great point and I jumped to my answer and change my mind. I actually change my mind all the time...I think it's good modeling for my child to see that he can work with someone else to see it a different way.

Interesting thread, but I think it really comes down to different personalities and styles.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Oh, I had one other thought about the OPs post. I think often why people judge is because it's a way to feel better about their own choices in parenting. I think we're all guilty of that...we do it here on MDC all the time. When other people go off on why they do what they do, I try to remember that they are trying to reassure themselves more than convince me of something.

For example, my MIL is very strict and traditional. She will often go on about her choices and beliefs and I think she is just trying to feel good about the job she did raising her kids. And if what I do is in stark contrast to what she did, that is going to challenge her beliefs about her own mothering and how she was with her kids. It really cuts to the core so I try to let my anger toward go at those times because she's just doing the best she can.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I was referring to the poster who was asking about always saying yes. I didn't mean I was being lenient. I am not sure why my mom and sister say it.
I am going to give an example of what my mom may be talking about.
My 4yo daughter was jumping on the trampoline. My mom asked her to get off of it. My daughter said no and kept jumping. I came outside and my mom was fuming. She told me what had happened. I couldn't believe how angry she looked. I just said ok. I walked over to the trampoline and asked Ricky if I could talk to her. I said that she should get off of the trampoline because grandma had asked her to. It is her trampoline and we are at her house so we should listen. She said ok and got off. I suggested she apologize but she didn't want to. That was it. Then my mom starts the guilt tripping. First you won't give me a kiss and then you don't get off of the trampoline. I am really hurt. This is all said in a whiny voice. I can see Ricky getting uncomfortable and shying away. I change the subject. Now if my mom sat down with her and shared with her how she felt it would have been ok. She likes to guilt people into compliance. A week later my mom was talking about having a talk with Ricky. I told her to wait until something like that happens again. The time has passed. She said I don't want anything like this to ever happen again! She is FOUR! It bothers me that the only reason she wanted to talk to her about it is so it never happens again. My mom didn't like how I handled it at all. So I think situations like this is the reason she calls me too lenient.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

I think when kids are toddlers and they are into everything, it is wise to avoid saying "no" all the time. It can be a real trigger word and invite trouble.

Now that my kids are getting older, I think it is appropriate to say "no" when I am absolutely sure I am not going to allow what they are asking. They can see through the redirection and distractions. Being vague only invites challenges. Not that I don't get challenged when I have to say "no", but it just feels more honest to be upfront about it.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Another thought I had is that it's easy to get annoyed with someone else's child. I feel irritated by behavior in other people's kids all the time. I have a much higher tolerance and patience for my own kids because I love them more than I can say. We all love our kids and I think that's why we can be more patient with them.

Damn!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Kiera09 said:


> I wash the dishes. I'm not washing an extra cup.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Then don't. But why would someone else making a different choice concern you so much it would drive you crazy? (Real question. Not being snarky.) It just so much feels like it none of anyone else's business.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kacymoose* 
I think when kids are toddlers and they are into everything, it is wise to avoid saying "no" all the time. It can be a real trigger word and invite trouble.

Now that my kids are getting older, I think it is appropriate to say "no" when I am absolutely sure I am not going to allow what they are asking. They can see through the redirection and distractions. Being vague only invites challenges. Not that I don't get challenged when I have to say "no", but it just feels more honest to be upfront about it.

ITA. The world is going to say no sometimes. I don't think we do our kids a lot of favors by trying to make everything feel good. Not that we should intentionally hurt them, but I think being direct is really ok.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 
Damn!

Gotta ask what you're meaning here! Did what I say offend or appeal???



chfriend said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Kiera09*
> ...


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## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

About never saying "no" to a child. I've heard of this as well. I'm almost certain there's a book about it, or it's in one of the parenting books out there. Basically it states that *all* your communication with a little one be only in the positive. You should never, ever use a negative word with a child (grammer refresher: no, not, never, don't, can't, never, isn't, shouldn't) only positive words. Therefore if your child bites another, the response would not be "Sweetie, don't bite people. It really hurts." it would be "Always remember that biting hurts." While this isn't my cup of tea, i guess it works with some kids. It certainly wouldn't with mine; he's very savvy and will either gorw up to be a lawyer or a polititian.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

This wasn't normal behavior for my 4yo daughter. It bothered me that she got SO upset and she is her grandmother. She couldn't believe that she would just say no and she never wanted it to happen again. I think she was being unrealistic. I do teach my children manners but in different ways. I don't believe in making my children apologize. If they don't feel it there is no point in making them say it. I model how I would like my children to be. I suggest that she apologize but that is it. In my moms eyes I should have done more. Maybe a time out or yelled at her. I am not that parent. (most of the time







)


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I really don't want to offend you, OP, but something struck me after reading your story about your mother and the trampoline. The actor, Emma Thompson, once said in an interview that she teaches manners and encourages her kids to be polite because it gives them a leg up in the world. I totally see what she's saying. Honestly, when a child is rude to an adult, it just rubs the wrong way. When anyone is rude to someone else they are much less likely to be perceived well. I think it's about learning social graces. It's a skill and I think it has a place in the world. I encourage my child to be polite and respectful...I strive for that personally and it does impact how you are received and treated. This isn't all the time, but there are times and places where politeness is important.

I have to agree with this. At one point when I was pregnant (and having a really hard time), I got up to use the bathroom at my parents house when my sisters and their families were over. My 10yo nephew flopped down into my seat (last couch/chair spot in the room) - he'd been sitting on the floor. I came back from the bathroom to not having a seat on a couch. I asked him politely to give me my seat back. And he told me that he didn't want to - and his parents said that while it "would be nice" to give me my seat back - he didn't have to if he didn't want to...








: That may very well be true - but it's not the kind of attitude that "endears" him to my heart.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
I don't believe in making my children apologize. If they don't feel it there is no point in making them say it. I model how I would like my children to be. I suggest that she apologize but that is it. In my moms eyes I should have done more. Maybe a time out or yelled at her. I am not that parent. (most of the time







)

I have a HUGE problem with the "don't force them to apologize" thing.

I force my child to do alot of things. This morning she's wearing a diaper she doesn't want to wear because we're leaving the house.

Why not teach (not force - but teach) your child that in our society apologies are highly valued by the "injured" (real or perceived) party and that if she can find some part of what happened to apologies for - that would go along way in social relations.

"Grandma is upset because she doesn't feel like you listened to her"

"Sorry that you feel I didn't listen to you grandma". Maybe followed by "I was having such a good time jumping on the trampoline that it was hard for me to stop".

I believe that apologies are an integral part of our world - whether we like it or not. And I plan to help my child figure out how to navigate that hurdle. I would never insist that she apologize for something she's not sorry for. But surely there is something that can be found which would be a compromise for both parties.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I didn't say I don't believe in apologizing. What is the point of a parent telling their child to apologize if they don't feel it? There is no point. I can talk with her about it and about the way grandma felt but I can't make her feel something she doesn't feel. I do try to find other ways. I suggest and put the idea into her head. I model it for her. How would you feel if someone came up to you and said..Now apologize for what you did! Wouldn't that make you feel more resentful and thinking about the way YOU feel instead of noticing how the OTHER person feels? I want my children to zone in on how it makes others feel instead of the way she feels. GWIM?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
I didn't say I don't believe in apologizing. What is the point of a parent telling their child to apologize if they don't feel it?


Same reason we make our children wear clean clothes and say please. Because these are just the ways we behave in society.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

You see, we both feel the same way. I just have a different way of achieving it. I wouldn't want someone to apologize to me just because that is the way society is. I would want them to apologize to me because they mean it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't force apologies either. There have been dozens of threads about this. I have sometimes discretely reminded my dd that she might like to apologize, because sometimes she's taken aback by appreciation and doesn't think to speak but would want to apologize if she thought to. But I wouldn't make her fake an apology, and I wouldn't publicly tell her to apologize because IMO that's teaching through humiliation.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

personally, i model the behavior I want my child to exhibit and i rarely apologize.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
I didn't say I don't believe in apologizing. What is the point of a parent telling their child to apologize if they don't feel it? There is no point. I can talk with her about it and about the way grandma felt but I can't make her feel something she doesn't feel. I do try to find other ways. I suggest and put the idea into her head. I model it for her. How would you feel if someone came up to you and said..Now apologize for what you did! Wouldn't that make you feel more resentful and thinking about the way YOU feel instead of noticing how the OTHER person feels? I want my children to zone in on how it makes others feel instead of the way she feels. GWIM?

First - I would never publicly "humiliate" my child into apologizing. Let me just make that clear.

But - I think that learning to apologize is just as important as learning not to burp in people's faces, or refuse to share toys (within reason - I will let her have a few toys that we put away before company comes that she doesn't have to share).

If my child did something rude - and ignoring another person is rude - then she would need to say something to make it better, or we would go home. It would be obvious that she wasn't in the mood to be out in society - so we would do the same thing we would do if she did other socially unacceptable things.

It's not about forcing an apology - it's about teaching the rules to our society. And in our culture (and different cultures have different rules) it is expected that if you hurt someone else (feelings, body, etc) be it accidentally or on purpose - that you apologize.

I don't see how force comes into it.

We were at an indoor playground a few weeks ago. DD didn't want to keep her socks on. I could have "forced" them onto her feet - but that doesn't jive with our parenting. So we told her straight out that if she didn't want them on - we would have to go home. She didn't want them on - so we went home.

I would see her refusing to apologize in the same way. If she didn't do it - then we'd go home.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

That is saying if you don't do as I say this will happen to you. I guess we just have different views on the subject.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

i grew up watching people apologize over and over again just to do the very same thing later on down the line. so, our society DOES give out the impression that when something is done to someone else accidentally or on purpose, an apology is due. however, very few people FOLLOW through with their promise of "I'll make this right with you." and that is what an apology is about --making it right with the other person.

apologies for the most part are empty in our society. in schools, the work place, with our extended families, even with us sometimes. most of us are too selfish to make things right with others, truly right.

as far as what I show my children, when i apologize it's a done deal because I DON'T apologize unless I mean to make it right with someone else. if i don't mean to make it right, i will not apologize because it would remain empty. my children are the same way.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Same reason we make our children wear clean clothes and say please. Because these are just the ways we behave in society.

I don't make my kids wear clean clothes or say please. And yet they mostly prefer clean clothes and say please more often then other children. They also regularly sincerely thank people.

I don't, and never have forced an apology. And yet, when they screw up, they most often apologize.

Because they are members of society, not because I started "teaching" them the "rules" when they were teeny.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
If my child did something rude - and ignoring another person is rude - then she would need to say something to make it better, or we would go home. It would be obvious that she wasn't in the mood to be out in society - so we would do the same thing we would do if she did other socially unacceptable things.

It's not about forcing an apology - it's about teaching the rules to our society...

Wow, really? At 21 mos it's rude to ignore someone? My kids are really social and talkative, to people of all ages, but they aren't always immediately comfortable with everyone they meet. And honestly, "apologize or we'll leave" _is_ forcing her. When we talk about forced apologies around here, no one means physically making a child speak.
Unless you didn't tell your child why you were leaving.

It seems to me that a lot of the things that you consider rude (like ignoring people, or asking for a different cup) are developmentally appropriate. But you said you dislike that term, right? An adult at a party doing these things would be rude. A small child though?

As for the op about the trampoline, well, sometimes kids need a minute to transition from an activity they're really enjoying. Perhaps grandma didn't get that, and took it personally. I don't consider a child not complying with a request immediately to be rude.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
That is saying if you don't do as I say this will happen to you. I guess we just have different views on the subject.

I don't see it like that - it's not what *I* say... It's what our culture says. I see it as a logical consequence.

To us a different example - and lets assume my DD is a couple years older. If we go to a restaurant - and she isn't behaving in an appropriate way for one - then we need to leave. It's not OK to have a 3 or 4yo running all over in a restaurant - so if she won't stay in her seat - we would need to go home.

I see interacting with society as agreeing to play by a set of rules. We have a different set of rules within our house. But when we go to other people's houses - we use different rules.

We let DD jump on our couch. However - the rule we're teaching her is that normally - you don't jump on other people's couches unless they initiate it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Think of Winter* 
Wow, really? At 21 mos it's rude to ignore someone?

I didn't mean it litterally for right now.

I way extrapolating for when she's 3 or 4 - like the child in the story I was replying to. At that age - she can acknowledge that someone is speaking her to. She doesn't need to participate in a conversation or anything like that. But by that age - "listening noises" or even nodding/head shaking are appropriate and reasonable.

At 21 months - we encourage DD to respond when we speak to her. Mainly we model making sure that acknowledge when she speaks to us "I hear you asking for us to sing 'EIEIO' again". And when we speak to her we may ask her to let us know she understood what we said "We'll be home in a few minutes - and then you can get out of the car seat. OK?"


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I think if we raise kind, compassionate and empathetic adults then that will carry them well in society. I don't want my children to conform to rules just to fit in(that's a recipe for disaster) but I don't want them to consider the rules and make judgements as to whether in that moment, that time and place in those exact circumstances if that rule is worth following or not.

I teach the value behind the words. And if they forget the words occasionally that's ok. Because I know that's just the label. I'm more concerned about the value..because that's the substance.

So if someone feels sorry, I know she's sorry but maybe too embarrassed in that moment to express it verbally then I let it go and maybe say it for her. Or if she's mad and actually she just isn't all that sorry then I will again, model it for her but you can be sure later there will be a moment of conversation where we can bring it up again and hopefully later she will be up for apologizing. Or maybe she won't but usually they do eventually feel sorry.

So I don't force apologies or manners but they are very very important to me and they must be genuine. And my kids are pretty good about apologising but it makes me even more proud when they not only apologize but put their arms around the person they've offended and ask "are you ok, I'm sorry" and it's really super genuine and heartfelt. That's what I'm going for. And I often get it.


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

Don't we all deserve a little leniency and patience when we are learning and trying new things? Don't we all need a little compassion instead of yelling if we're upset?
I don't see it as being "lenient" I see it as being kind. And if I can't be kind to my own familiy, who can I be kind to?


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoginisarah* 
Don't we all deserve a little leniency and patience when we are learning and trying new things? Don't we all need a little compassion instead of yelling if we're upset?
I don't see it as being "lenient" I see it as being kind. And if I can't be kind to my own familiy, who can I be kind to?

Who's mentioned yelling????

Or not being kind?

You can be kind and gentle and compassionate while choosing not to let kids walk all over you.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
I don't see it like that - it's not what *I* say... It's what our culture says. I see it as a logical consequence.

The culture I live in doesn't require toddlers to speak to others. The logical consequence of being ignored by someone who is one year old is to wait until they get bigger.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
You can be kind and gentle and compassionate while choosing not to let kids walk all over you.

Getting a very little kid a different cup is not letting your kids walk all over you.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
The culture I live in doesn't require toddlers to speak to others. The logical consequence of being ignored by someone who is one year old is to wait until they get bigger.

When did I say that I would require a 1yo to speak to others? Or even a toddler????

I didn't!

I think that a 4yo - who is in NO WAY a toddler - should be able to speak to their grandmother. That seems reasonable.

But frankly - if someone tried to speak to my toddler, I would respond on her behalf. Because it would be rude for there to be no response. I would model the appropriate response. I would do that for a child of any age. At some point - it would change from a shy toddler to a rude child. I guess it's up for debate when that happens.

But it would always be rude for no one to respond. So, if my child can't or won't - then I'll do it for them.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

So how would you feel if a creepy person comes up to your child of 4 and says hello. Should your child HAVE to say hello back and step out of their comfort zone?
My 4yo daughter not responding to grandma isn't great. I agree. We just have different ways of getting our children to understand apologizing. We both want the same outcome but go about it different ways.
And if we went by society's standards we would vax, send them to school, not co-sleep...etc.
If someone says hello to my child or wants a kiss..I do not make them. If they are uncomfortable for some reason then I will not make them. Society expects it but society is messed up.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

We are talking about a 4 year old on the trampoline right?
OP,
I think if it were me I would talk to my daughter about it again. It is obviously really bothering your mother. I think if it had happened at your house I would let it go but the fact that it was at your mom's house on her trampoline makes me think it would a good idea to talk about respecting your mom's rules at her house. Did she want her to stop jumping for a reason?

Quote:

My in-laws have spoken to my husband about us not letting DD "get her own way". Because of course "she has to learn". What sparked this? DD wanted Grandma to trick-or-treat with her instead of Daddy when she was 3. She went on to have a mini melt down about it so we took a few minutes to work it out with the result being Daddy did not go with us. Oh the horror! We are just the most lenient parents ever!
This example was given early in the thread and I was wondering about how others felt about it. We once had a friend ask us to leave their house shortly after we got there for a playdate because her 3 year old decided she did not want to have a playdate that day. I was pretty shocked but maybe I shouldn't have been.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
So how would you feel if a creepy person comes up to your child of 4 and says hello. Should your child HAVE to say hello back and step out of their comfort zone?

Do you really want to know my answer to that?

Today on the way to gym class - some random 60+ old man said "hi" and waved at my DD. I smiled and said "hi" as we passed him. When we went on our evening walk yesterday - we exchanged 'pleasantries' with 2 random people who were out working on their yards.

I will not expect her to have a full conversation with a stranger. I will not expect her to do what they tell her to do (unless it involves their property - like "get off my lawn"). But I will expect her to be polite. I guess in my book returning a greeting is being polite.

Quote:

My 4yo daughter not responding to grandma isn't great. I agree. We just have different ways of getting our children to understand apologizing. We both want the same outcome but go about it different ways.
And if we went by society's standards we would vax, send them to school, not co-sleep...etc.
I have said on a few occasions - that I think there can be a huge difference between what you do in public and what you do at home. We let DD run around without a diaper on at home. We would never dream of doing that at someone else's house until we were very confident in her potty abilities.

Vaxing is a private issue. It doesn't affect anyone else. Neither does co-sleeping or where a kid goes to school.

Those things do not impact other people.

Quote:

If someone says hello to my child or wants a kiss..I do not make them. If they are uncomfortable for some reason then I will not make them. Society expects it but society is messed up.
I think that something like saying "hi" is COMPLETELY different from something that involves a child's body - like giving a kiss. I will expect a "hi" to be given - and if my child doesn't want to - then I'll do it for them. But I would never insist on a hug/kiss/handshake.

They are so different - I'm really confused as to why you are trying to compare them.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Do you really want to know my answer to that?


May I suggest "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin De Becker?

http://www.amazon.com/Protecting-Gif.../dp/0440509009

Here's is what I was responding to: "Originally Posted by Kiera09
If my child did something rude - and ignoring another person is rude - then she would need to say something to make it better, or we would go home. It would be obvious that she wasn't in the mood to be out in society - so we would do the same thing we would do if she did other socially unacceptable things. " when I referred to a one year old.

A 21 month old is a one year old, which in my book, is a toddler.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
May I suggest "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin De Becker?

http://www.amazon.com/Protecting-Gif.../dp/0440509009

Here's is what I was responding to: "Originally Posted by Kiera09
If my child did something rude - and ignoring another person is rude - then she would need to say something to make it better, or we would go home. It would be obvious that she wasn't in the mood to be out in society - so we would do the same thing we would do if she did other socially unacceptable things. " when I referred to a one year old.

A 21 month old is a one year old, which in my book, is a toddler.

Since a 21 month old is a "toddler" - when I said "child" that would indicate that I was speaking hypothetically about a "child" not about my current "toddler"...

Second - that boo, IMO, was ridiculous. While I appreciate the sentiment - I think it goes way too far.

Modeling that saying "Hi" to someone is polite - is a far cry from setting a child up to be abused or molested.

I cannot believe that you are suggesting that book based on what I said. That's insulting and offensive.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Since a 21 month old is a "toddler" - when I said "child" that would indicate that I was speaking hypothetically about a "child" not about my current "toddler"...

Second - that boo, IMO, was ridiculous. While I appreciate the sentiment - I think it goes way too far.

Modeling that saying "Hi" to someone is polite - is a far cry from setting a child up to be abused or molested.

I cannot believe that you are suggesting that book based on what I said. That's insulting and offensive.

I'm sorry you found the suggestion offensive. Many folks here have found it useful in helping them figure out where they want to draw the line in requiring their children to interact with others because teaching children that they owe grown-ups particular reactions can set them up for abuse.

Certainly if you feel it will not be useful to you, don't read it.

I'm unclear by what you mean by "that boo, IMO, was ridiculous"

I misunderstood you to say that if *your child* who I understand is 21 months old ignored someone that you would leave.

I understand now that you are saying that if you were the OP and her 4 year old were your child you would leave. Is that correct?


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm sorry you found the suggestion offensive. Many folks here have found it useful in helping them figure out where they want to draw the line in requiring their children to interact with others because teaching children that they owe grown-ups particular reactions can set them up for abuse.

Wow, a book *teaching* mothers how to listen and trust *their instincts*.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
I think that something like saying "hi" is COMPLETELY different from something that involves a child's body - like giving a kiss. I will expect a "hi" to be given - and if my child doesn't want to - then I'll do it for them. But I would never insist on a hug/kiss/handshake.

They are so different - I'm really confused as to why you are trying to compare them.

To you, they might be extremely different . . . to a perpetrator, not so much.

As a survivor of Childhood Sexual Abuse (4-6 years old) I have chosen *never* to force my daughter to say hello to or even make eye contact with anyone. Yes, there is a fine line between being cautious & being hyper aware. Not being cautious at all can be catastrophic. Being hyper aware can also be problematic. This is why I read all the books I can get my hands on about it. I see absolutely no reason to take offense to the suggestion of this book. It's a fact that about 1/6 to 1/4 girls are sexually abused in some way before their 12th birthday. Although about 90% or more of the prepetrators are trusted family/friends, the nice old man around the corner who knows your schedule & has received enough kindly "hellos" from a child could be the perp, too. Mine was a neighbor that my parents hardly knew, but who I was "trained" to smile & say hello to.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
To you, they might be extremely different . . . to a perpetrator, not so much.

As a survivor of Childhood Sexual Abuse (4-6 years old) I have chosen *never* to force my daughter to say hello to or even make eye contact with anyone...









Thank you very much for weighing in here, Papooses. I'm sorry that you have personal experience with this, but I really appreciate you sharing it with us to help us protect our kids.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I brought up the society reference because you seem to be a bit more concerned with what society feels is right instead of your child following their feelings/instincts. I was pointing out that not everyone feels the need to follow society's rules. I do want my children to be polite but not if that means making them uncomfortable.
My 4yo daughter is the most compassionate little girl. If one of her siblings is crying she is the first one there to comfort them. I do not force that. It comes from her heart. It is genuine.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 
Wow, a book *teaching* mothers how to listen and trust *their instincts*.

as well as how and why...obviously some moms on this threads have instincts that making their kids talk to people who talk to them is completely safe.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Acknowledging another's PRESENCE (by replying to "hi") does not = "talking to them." It is possible to raise your child with both these guidelines---that it is polite to acknowledge others who acknowledge you, but that you never ever "have" to speak to a stranger beyond that acknowledgment.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
Acknowledging another's PRESENCE (by replying to "hi") does not = "talking to them." It is possible to raise your child with both these guidelines---that it is polite to acknowledge others who acknowledge you, but that you never ever "have" to speak to a stranger beyond that acknowledgment.

exactly. This whole thread is getting out of control. The two 'sides' are never going to agree. I am with Kiera09 in how I do things. The OP's style feels contrived to me.

We all parent differently.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
Acknowledging another's PRESENCE (by replying to "hi") does not = "talking to them." It is possible to raise your child with both these guidelines---that it is polite to acknowledge others who acknowledge you, but that you never ever "have" to speak to a stranger beyond that acknowledgment.

Thank you.

I would never insist that a child have a conversation with a stranger. But saying "hi" as we walk past? That seems reasonable.

I think it's very possible to teach a child that they have a right to have reasonable boundaries - and still have them be able to interact with people.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My perspective on this developed after the age where strangers sometimes expected my kid to interact, rather than me doing it for them.

At 2, it seems reasonable because strangers accept me responding for my kid. When people start invading your kids' space to get the reaction they feel entitled to after around 3 or 4? Nope, no way.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
When people start invading your kids' space to get the reaction they feel entitled to after around 3 or 4? Nope, no way.

It's never OK for someone to invade anyone else's space. Please don't confuse the issue.

Expecting a child to exchange "hi" with another person is a completely separate issue from a rude adult getting in a child's face. Obviously - that's not OK. I have no idea why you are trying to connect them.


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## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
To you, they might be extremely different . . . to a perpetrator, not so much.

It's a fact that about 1/6 to 1/4 girls are sexually abused in some way before their 12th birthday. Although about 90% or more of the prepetrators are trusted family/friends, the nice old man around the corner who knows your schedule & has received enough kindly "hellos" from a child could be the perp, too. Mine was a neighbor that my parents hardly knew, but who I was "trained" to smile & say hello to.

I saw it on Oprah once, that feeling of being obligated to be nice can be what tips the balance for assaults, sexual or otherwise.

I hear you on this, I am also a victim of sexual abuse and my DD will never be forced to kiss, hug or greet a stranger. She's just learning her limits and who she trusts now...I'd hate to turn off her trust in her own instincts about people.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
It's never OK for someone to invade anyone else's space. Please don't confuse the issue.

Expecting a child to exchange "hi" with another person is a completely separate issue from a rude adult getting in a child's face. Obviously - that's not OK. I have no idea why you are trying to connect them.

I'm not confused. If you have a different experience when your little one gets a bit older I'm happy for you. I found that once they were over 3, other adults expected them to respond to their persistent questions once my children responded to "hi." Also lots of commentary on their clothes, hair, shoes, anything they were holding....

All innocent, but completely invasive. My kids can engage strangers if they want to, but they owe no one anything just because they are in public.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

What may be contrived for you certainly is not contrived to me.
This parenting style feels completely natural to me. Everyone parents differently.
Children are just learning about instincts and boundaries. If they are made to say hi even though they are uncomfortable is taking away their importance of choice. I would worry that my child would confuse their uncomfortable feelings with trying to respect an adult. So it is ok to feel uncomfortable sometimes as long as society is happy? I can model my behavior as well. I say hello to many people when I go about my day. When people say hello to me I say it back with a smile. My children are constantly saying hello to people. It doesn't mean that they have to step out of their comfort zone though, just so society feels better.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
It doesn't mean that they have to step out of their comfort zone though, just so society feels better.

I have a very hard time with the idea of never asking people to step out of their comfort zones...

Maybe we have very different lives, but I am constantly stepping out of my comfort zone. It would not a point of my parenting that I was proud of if I never helped my children to expand their comfort zones.

I'm not suggesting throwing kids off the deep end and hoping they can swim - but helping them and encouraging them to take steps they may not think they are ready for. Obviously - forcing kids to do things they actually aren't ready for isn't good. But encouraging small steps seems like something parents are supposed to do.

I can't imagine what my life would have been like if I hadn't been encouraged to do things I didn't think I was ready for. There are so many things that I am so happy I did - that I was nervous/hesitant about before I did them. Heck - I wouldn't have my wonderful little girl if I'd waited until I felt 100% ready.

At some point, children need to learn how to talk to strangers. How else do you ask for help in a store, or confirm that you're on the right bus? I had to talk to a stranger to arrange an interview for every job I've had. If I hadn't learned how to talk to strangers I never would have met my DH - because I wouldn't have talked to him during first year physics.

I hear what you're saying about not wanting to erode a child's sense of 'self' and not wanting a child to think that they don't have control or autonomy over their own bodies. But I think that giving in to stranger fear isn't the answer. Teaching about boundaries and enforcing those boundaries is more important in my view.

Things like my FIL was tickling DD a few months ago. She said "stop" and he didn't immediately stop (she'd been saying "stop" and he would stop - then she'd say "more" and he'd tickle more - at one point he decided not to stop immediately). I made sure to back her up 100%. And I made sure to let my FIL know that he needs to respect the very first "stop" that she says. He agreed and we haven't had any issues since. (And she still asks him for "tickies" - but she always initiates)...


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

My children do know how to talk to strangers. They talk to many people when we are out. I am not holding them back. I am just respecting their internal instincts just like I want them to.
It doesn't mean that I don't encourage my children to try new things. For ex. my daughter used to say she didn't want to go to swimming lessons. I would tell her that we will still go and if she doesn't want to participate that is up to her. I knew that she would be the first one in the water.







But if we got there and she didn't want to go in the pool I wouldn't push it. It is so heartbreaking to see children crying on the side of the pool and the parents trying to make them get in. I think my children have more confidence because they know that it is their decision and don't feel pressured. I was actually shocked that my 4yo got in the pool. I believe it is because she knew that I was right there and she could come and sit with me if she wanted.
So I may encourage my children to step out of their comfort zones but I wouldn't make them. I encourage them by saying hello to the person myself or modeling it. I don't make them.
But I don't even think this is the point now that I think of it. This is a different kind of comfort. I want my children to follow their instincts and if an adult makes them uncomfortable they shouldn't have to say hello. My children will not and are not hermits because they choose not to say hello to a certain person. I guess I see it as respecting my children and their comfort levels.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

OP, your original issue was with your dd not acknowledging your mother, not a stranger. So I think this issue has nothing to do with comfort zones or feelings of safety. I think working through social graces and empathy with another person's perceptions of her action/inaction would be a great teachable moment. If it were me, I wouldn't require an apology in the moment. I might take my child aside and talk about how the interaction affected the other person. I've done that several times at playdates with my ds. I would just reflect with her about it and encourage her to think about how her lack of response made her grandmother feel. Your mother probably won't feel vindicated if there isn't something going on that she can see, but that isn't your issue.

As far as strangers and perps, I think Gavin Becker (is that his name??) talks about trusting your instincts...listening to that voice inside that tells you something isn't right. I think that is something we can talk about with our kids. There isn't a blanket rule...there used to be "stranger danger" but that isn't useful/effective in protecting children since most often it's people they know. Talking about the privacy of their own bodies, not doing anything they don't feel is right, never keeping secrets, feeling they can tell their parents anything, etc. is where we can start the dialogue.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I know the two aren't the same. It just swayed that way.
You wrote exactly what I did


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## tomuchspade (Sep 11, 2008)

Okay, I am new and am enjoying the diversity in topics. I am not a physical disiplinarian, but me kids listen and are generally well behaved. My ds is 6 and we went through a rough phase with him, I was horrified and desperate and finally found a solution and am pleased to say that his behavior is acceptable. I am fairly strict about public behavior, manners and politeness. He is finally there. I constantly hear from his nana how he doesn't listen to her. They are overly strict in my opinion and am tired of hearinh crap about my kid, the only time they ever see him listen is when I am there, apparently my Dh can't handle him either. So I just I just quit taking him there! So if I were you, if your happy with your method then tell everyone esle to mind there own. I wouldn't hesitate to say that to anyone when they criticize something going on in my home!


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

well, i probably am too lenient sometimes to be honest.







i step in when behavior affects other people negatively....but most of the time, i'm pretty darn lenient. my kids are good kids though. my dd is actually off the charts amazingly "good"....but my ds balances that out because he is off the charts crazy







.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

FWIW, my child is very social & enjoys chatting away with many people of various backgrounds, ages, etc. However, as someone else said, she doesn't owe that part of herself or any other part of herself to anyone simply because we're in public. She wouldn't if we were at home, either. We help our neighbors & our neighbors help us, but is she's not feeling quite right about saying hi to a neighbor at a given moment, that's OK.


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