# Mama more coercive, see UPDATE -- she weaned and moved to her own bedroom just a week after this post



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

My dd is almost five years old and still engaging in some behavior that really, really irks me. I don't do timeouts, shame, scold, etc. I try to just provide information and that usually works.

But there are a couple of things that she does that I am just ready to put my foot down. I am desperately seeking some creative input for moving past these behaviors without threatening various punishments (I think consequences are really just punishments in a way, but that's a whole other thread).

1. cutting a hole in the new sofa, pulling out the stuffing. She got a mild reprimand the first time, ("we don't cut sofas, we cut paper or scraps from the fabric bin") but after four times of enlarging the hole and pulling out more stuffing, I lost my cool and threatened to cut a hole in her bed if she kept doing it. She cried piteously and said she would stop, and so far, she has not cut it again. But the thing is, I do not like the fact that I made an ugly horrible threat. This was not a natural or logical consequence, just a mean threat.

2. Throwing organic food on the floor just to see it fall on the floor. Um, this is a biggie for me since the price of food is getting serious. Just a few days ago I decided that she was old enough to stop and that I was going to really focus on this. I realized the same corrections that had been going on her entire life were not working on the food on the floor issue ("in our family, we don't throw food on the floor, we eat food"), so I threatened to put a build a bear in time out. This seemed to really affect her, and she stopped throwing food on the floor. She has not done it for days. Still, I just said a huge part of my identity is that I don't put kids in time out or shame or punish them, but that's basically what I did. How is it any different to threaten to put a BAB in time out???? It's ridiculous, and to me, a sign that I am just losing it and at the end of my rope. There has got to be a solution, but apparently, the problem is solved, again with an ugly threat. Again, the BAB time out has nothing to do with the food (or laundry, below)

3. throwing clean folded laundry on the floor. I am not that great a housekeeper, so having her throw clean folded and hung laundry on the floor in a wad while I am putting some of it away really gets to me. OK, when she was two, I thought it was ok. But she's almost five, and so, once again, I threatened to put a build a bear in time out.










So, what's going on here? I'm losing my values and inner guidance and now just want certain things done. I do not want to re-do housework for no reason or waste food. I want to spend my time with my kids having a happy little unschooling lifestyle, not crawling around on the floor picking up smushed organic tomatoes. The resentment I was feeling was getting in the way of feeling love and joy so I tried to stop the behavior. But then, there must be effective ways to get things done my way without being a threatening jerk. The sofa boils down to a money concern. The sofa is a year old and it would be hard for me to replace it.

I also want the girls to start doing some basic chores so we can all have more fun together. My current housework system is idiotic. I put them in front of the TV while I run around doing the flylady crisis cleaning system for about an hour. This is not the way to do it. Obviously, they should each do their own little chores (or at least pick up after themselves) while I work with them.

So -- what do you think would work?


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Everybody loses their cool now and then, so give yourself a break. Have you tried discussing how these issues affect everyone in the house? The couch doesn't look as nice, it won't be as comfortable to sit on if stuffing is missing, you feel upset because the couch was suppose to last a long time and it cost a lot of money. Have you talked about how food cost money and if you have to replace food that is thrown on the floor there won't be money to buy something else?

With chores, you might try doing a few small things when they are not watching tv, but looking for something to do. Would you like to help me water the plants, rinse the dishes, load the dishes, put soap in the washing machine, etc. I find the best way to get my kids involved is to wait until they express an interest in what I am doing. Then I do my best to find a way for them to help. That can't happen if they are watching tv while I am doing everything. Kids can be fascinated by grown up things, so the more things you can find that just take a few minutes at a time to do, the more things they will be exposed to - and hopefully take an interest in doing.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I agree, I would be irked if my almost 5 yo was doing things like that. Like you, I also slip into shaming, punishments, etc. sometimes and I hate it too!

I'm wondering about your tone of voice and facial expressions? Like when she cut a hole in the new couch, did you stay really calm? You said you "mildly" reprimanded her. While I don't think shaming or punishment would have been appropriate, I think it would have just fine to let her see how upset that made you. If you were upset. I would sure be! Same thing with the food. In that situation I would probably be quite upset, especially if I'd repeatedly asked her not to do it, and I would let that come across. I would probably also start giving her teeny-tiny portions and not allow access to the fridge until she stopped though.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Don't be hard on yourself - we have all had parenting moments that we wish we had handled differently. At some point, you'll look back and laugh about threatening to put a bear in time out! My DS is almost 4, and I reached a point a while back where I was really tired of these kinds of annoying behaviors as well. I agree with the PP who talked about letting your DD see that you are unhappy/mad/whatever. I certainly don't mean to yell or go over the top, but I think it is important for kiddos to see that their behaviors effect other people and how they feel.

As for those particular situations -

I wouldn't let her have unsupervised access to scissors or sharp things. Talk about the reason why so she can see that her actions cause a reaction.

When DS would throw food on the ground, I would tell him "We don't throw food, it wastes it, mama doesn't want to clean it up..." As a toddler, I would just get him down from the table. I would always put him back up to eat again as soon as he wanted, but I think getting him down broke up the crazy, frantic food throwing moment. The point wasn't to deprive him of food - he always had access to that. At this age, I ask him to clean it all up.

Throwing laundry is still a problem in our house! So frustrating! I have started explaining that I already did the work once and don't like doing it over and over. I ask him to refold it and stack it up for me. Of course the folding job isn't done how I would do it, but that isn't the point - it's about cleaning up after you make a mess.

In my mind, there is a big difference between consequences and punishments. Punishments have a punitive intent and don't really achieve anything. Consequences is the give and take of living in a household together. I'll do the job once or serve the food, but if you want to intentionally make a mess, you can help me clean it up. If you can't handle using certain tools by yourself, then we will use them together until you are past this phase.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

You may not like this answer but here goes...
What this says to me is that there is a disconnect between the fantasy of how you imagine yourself and imagine the system working and the way it actually does. In your shoes I would investigate other gentle discipline approaches that might be more effective than just giving the same speeches. And, definately more effective than threats or things that you feel bad about.

That might include:
lost unsupervised access to scissors.

finding ways to make up when something goes wrong - what can she do to help with the situation when she makes a mistake - this isn't a punishment it is an opportunity for her to have an end point to the behavior and to learn the connection between her behavior and the feelings of other people.

Solving problems together. She's five and that is definately old enough to do more than just listen to mom give the same spiel that she's given before. "We've got a problem with spilled food...how are we going to solve that together?" Helping her find ways to solve the problem for herself is what might ultimately change the situation. She could. make a sign for the table to remind not to waste food, etc.


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

Just yesterday I threatened to throw away my 23mo brand new hot wheels cars (like 5 hours old) because he was refusing to get dresses and whinning and running amuk 5 min after the child I watch was picked up. I just wanted to go out to catch dh for dinner out... and ds was fast on his way to Crazy man mode.

So I grabbed the box full of cars held it up high and threatened to throw them away inthe garbage.... this makes me a bad parent?

I feel like I'm doing so well with the non-hitting... and I know I have to work on the yelling, and I'm getting there.... so what part of my decision was horrible.... It got his attention, when we calmed down, we talked about it, he gave me a hug...

I feel dizzy trying to see why that is a horrible parenting technique. Sure it didn't feel good but ds was losing sight of everything but his inner world of yucky feelings... i did it to get him back to reality...

fill me in


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
What this says to me is that there is a disconnect between the fantasy of how you imagine yourself and imagine the system working and the way it actually does.

OMG OP your post could have been mine - my DD is over 4.5 (will be 5 in the fall) and lately has been engaging in behavior that just sends me over the edge! I also try not to be co-ercive but just the other day at a playdate she was driving me so batty that I marched her inside and told her not to come out until she could "play nice" - ugh. I know her behavior was driven by her sensory issues and not entirely under her control but I just get frustrated because I feel like she is old enough to control her impulses better - and she does for the most part but there are some things she is just ANNOYING about! I hope it's just a phase....

I think the quote above is VERY relevant for me. I am SO in the fantasy world that I can do this GD almost CL approach - but I just mess it up every time.....and you're right that it probably means it's time for me to change tactics! I'm always 2 steps behind.....

RE: why threats are bad - um - to my mind, that's kind of like the arms race - you have to keep making the threats worse and worse to get the behavior you want....it's just a bad mode to get into and doesn't teach your child how to handle other people very well or teach them how to regulate themselves except through threats. I'd rather teach a child how to calm themselves down (or handle frustration) than essentially tell them to "stuff it" because I don't want to hear it or else they will be punished - I think that causes lots of acting out later in life. At least that's my take.

peace,
robyn


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GradysMom* 
J

I feel dizzy trying to see why that is a horrible parenting technique. Sure it didn't feel good but ds was losing sight of everything but his inner world of yucky feelings... i did it to get him back to reality...

fill me in

And, what if that didn't work. What you throw away his cars? How would that feel? Or, are these just false threats? Ultimately are you going to spend his entire childhood threatening one bigger thing after another until you've thrown away all his possessions or you haven't and he's decided you are a liar?

It might help illustrate to think about this... How about in that moment of parenting your dh comes in and grabs something very important to you (let's say the ring you inherited from your beloved dear Aunt Sally) and holds it high and threatens to throw it into the garbage if you don't do exactly what he says. How would that feel? Would you feel like having strong emotions was okay? Would you feel like he trusted and respected you and cared about how you feel?

There are all sorts of ways that don't involving hitting that can be used to bully children into compliance.

I know some "noncoercive" folks are repelled by limited choices, routine charts, making amends, schedules, rules, parents laying out expectaions, family meetings, and other basic concepts of positive discipline - but I think all of these are far, far less damaging to kids than threats or being yelled at - and much less harmful than kids behaving badly and parents feeling awful about it. Probably an argument could even be made that rewards and punishments are less damaging than that.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GradysMom* 
Just yesterday I threatened to throw away my 23mo brand new hot wheels cars (like 5 hours old) because he was refusing to get dresses and whinning and running amuk 5 min after the child I watch was picked up. I just wanted to go out to catch dh for dinner out... and ds was fast on his way to Crazy man mode.

So I grabbed the box full of cars held it up high and threatened to throw them away inthe garbage.... this makes me a bad parent?

I feel like I'm doing so well with the non-hitting... and I know I have to work on the yelling, and I'm getting there.... so what part of my decision was horrible.... It got his attention, when we calmed down, we talked about it, he gave me a hug...

I feel dizzy trying to see why that is a horrible parenting technique. Sure it didn't feel good but ds was losing sight of everything but his inner world of yucky feelings... i did it to get him back to reality...

fill me in

You are not a bad parent. I think it is awesome you are avoiding hitting and trying to avoid yelling. You saw your child spiraling out of control, and you felt the need to help him calm down. Nothing wrong with your intent. A couple of things really stand out to me. It didn't feel good to you, so it seems like you are open to other options that might feel more respectful to your child. Also, this all happened not long after the child you watch left. I believe children act to meet their needs, even when their actions are inappropriate. His wildness and yucky feelings could have been in response to having to share you all day, and he was looking for a way to get some attention focused directly on him. If you can look at what is driving the behavior and address that, it will really help bring the undesirable actions to an end. Another thing that stood out was that you wanted to rid him of his yucky feelings and not let him get lost in the yucky feelings. Those yucky feelings need to be expressed. If they are not, they are going to come out in another form later. It is not pleasant experience to see your child upset, but it will help him if he feels safe to express his bad feelings so he can get over them.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 

I know some "noncoercive" folks are repelled by limited choices, routine charts, making amends, schedules, rules, parents laying out expectaions, family meetings, and other basic concepts of positive discipline - but I think all of these are far, far less damaging to kids than threats or being yelled at - and much less harmful than kids behaving badly and parents feeling awful about it. Probably an argument could even be made that rewards and punishments are less damaging than that.


I agree. I'm not a punitive parent, but among my 4 children exisits 4 individual personalities with varrying needs. SOme are far more organized than others, one is a bit more impulsive, one likes lists etc.

It's also true that many small children need a bit more structure or routine (which is not disrespectful) to feel safe and competant as they learn about the world. Too little guidance can drive some children batty, and that very often leads to feeling overwhlemed, which leads to acting- out behaviors. Less talk, more action, and clear expectations (Instead of talking about why we don't hit our friends with sticks at a kid who is hitting his friends with sticks, we gently take the stick. We don't simply tempt fate or the impulse control of a little one) can be a great relief for some children.

On the too many choices front: does it enrich your life greatly to walk into say, Target ,for simple toothpaste or shampoo, and be met with 500 choices of each? The world can seem like that daily to a small child. It's a lot to process.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

In our house we've handled stuff like this with just natural consequences.

Scissors- you use them irresponsibly well you don't get to cut with scissors anymore. Then I put them up and each time (for a designated amount of time) she asks you say, no you may not use scissors, remember we decided you aren't ready to handle them appropriately yet, we'll try again when you're a little older. (And fwiw, I had to do this last summer with my then 5 year old dd, she cut her clothes, she got a warning, then she cut off the cat's whiskers. And scissors were gone from her life for the entire summer.) She doesn't cut things up anymore.









Food- for this I would say if you are going to waste your food you must not be hungry, and then take the plate and put it in the fridge, after a warning of course. You of course would then have to follow through, if you don't the problem will just get worse because she'll know you don't mean it, and you really don't care if she throws food on the floor.

Laundry- well natural consequences for undoing someone's hard work? To fold and hang the laundry back up. Obviously she won't be able to reach the rod to hang them up, but she can put hangers in shirts and fold the clothes. It may not be the way you want it, but the point is she was behaving destructively and you redirect and make ammends by fixing the wrong doing.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Loss of privileges and timeout are not ruled out in my house, but logical consequences in the situations you presented:

1. See, to me, mom and dad being pretty freaking angry *is* a natural consequence of destroying the furniture. Agree about lost scissors or needing to stay close to mom/out of the living room.

2. You're excused from the table.

3. You must help me pick up the laundry.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

My take:

1) The sofa: she would loose the privilege of having free access to the scissors. I wouldn't limit their use - but she would have to ask for them and tell me what she was planning to do with them. Then I would set things up so that I was casually supervising. - Like folding laundry in the same room she was doing an art project it. I would also enlist her help in fixing the sofa. I would both make her see what a big pain it was (with the amount of work) and see how upset I was. I would have her come with me to a fabric store to search for a close match. Then she would have to help while I fixed it.

2) Food: If she can't 'not waste' give her really small portions. Only give her a spoon or two of food. Be willing to give her as many refills as she wants - but very small quantities. That way she won't have much to throw. Also - when she does throw - she needs to stop eating immediately and clean up the food. She should pay the natural price for making a mess. She can't pay the monetary price for wasting the food - so that's why it's up to you to make sure she can't really waste much - but she can pay the mess price.

But - I'm a natural consequences person.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
3. You must help me pick up the laundry.

We've got the laundry, and making-messes-for-the-pleasure-of-it issue here, too. But what happens when your dc says 'no?' Dh has tried physically "helping" him to do it, but that seems really wrong to me. I've also tried "no new toys til these are cleaned up," and that has had minimal success, too.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colleen95* 
We've got the laundry, and making-messes-for-the-pleasure-of-it issue here, too. But what happens when your dc says 'no?' Dh has tried physically "helping" him to do it, but that seems really wrong to me. I've also tried "no new toys til these are cleaned up," and that has had minimal success, too.

I think it was one of the few suggestion I liked from some crappy parenting book: The rainy Sunday bag!

I don't remember what book it was - but suggested that if your kids weren't willing to clean up their clothes/toys - you do it. But don't put them back into circulation right away. Save them for a special day... That way - there isn't a power struggle about it - because you're willing to do it. But there's still a consequence for not helping out.

Personally I'd only use that for something like Legos left all over the playroom - or something else which is easy to make a big mess with. If it was random small toys everywhere - then I'd think my kid had more toys than they needed and the toys would be pared down.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colleen95* 
We've got the laundry, and making-messes-for-the-pleasure-of-it issue here, too. But what happens when your dc says 'no?' Dh has tried physically "helping" him to do it, but that seems really wrong to me. I've also tried "no new toys til these are cleaned up," and that has had minimal success, too.

You could use that nice "waiting for the bus" tactic. You sit there and wait for them to do it, and nothing else happens until it's done. I don't think physically assisting with follow-through is necessarily wrong, either, but ymmv.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

One thing I try to default to when my kid is driving me crazy is prevention as opposed to threats. That means, for example, if he tried to throw folded clothes on the floor, I'd pick him up and remove him to another room. If he came back and tried to do it again, I'd remove myself and the laundry to an inaccessible place (like, up on top of a table that's too high for him to reach). If he gets upset, I'd tell him, "you don't get to help with the laundry, because you made a mess." If he tries to mess up the couch, he gets removed from the couch. A few times of being told "you don't get to sit on the couch if you're going to damage it" is enough to convince him to leave it alone.

This might make him throw a fit, but the key thing is *I* don't have to throw a fit to get him to obey. I keep my stuff safe and I stay calm, and if he freaks out because I'm not letting him break things, that's his own problem.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I don't remember what book it was - but suggested that if your kids weren't willing to clean up their clothes/toys - you do it. But don't put them back into circulation right away.

Yep. This is exactly what we do. "If you don't pick these up, I'll pick them up for you, but then I'm going to put them up high." ("Up high" in our house is code for "put away in the closet because you got in trouble with it, and you don't get it back until at least tomorrow.")


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 

I know some "noncoercive" folks are repelled by limited choices, routine charts, making amends, schedules, rules, parents laying out expectations, family meetings, and other basic concepts of positive discipline - but I think all of these are far, far less damaging to kids than threats or being yelled at - and much less harmful than kids behaving badly and parents feeling awful about it.

nothing to add. perfectly said.


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

***throwing clean folded laundry on the floor. I am not that great a housekeeper, so having her throw clean folded and hung laundry on the floor in a wad while I am putting some of it away really gets to me. OK, when she was two, I thought it was ok. But she's almost five, and so, once again, I threatened to put a build a bear in time out.***

So throwing freshly folded laundry on the floor was okay at age two. At what point did it not become okay, and how was your dd to know that? What would have been the wise thing to do was when she was two and first began the behavior to have her help you pick the laundry up and help fold/hang it then. I know this isn't incredibly helpful at this point, but it's something to consider when new things arise. If it is a behavior that will not be considered okay in the future, it might be worth ensuring that it is made clear that it isn't acceptable when it begins.

I'm pretty sure that your dd has absolutely no idea that there was a sudden switch in what is acceptable. It's very unfair to think that age alone will make them "wise" to what are adult expectations.

Different example but along the same idea. My mother thought it was incredibly cute to give my ds1 her prescription med containers (with pills in them) to shake like a rattle when he was about 6 months old. She couldn't understand why I would take them away from him when he was clearly enjoying it and couldn't get it open anyway. So I had to explain to her that there would soon come a time when he *would* be able to get them open and what would she do then when he delighted in getting them out of her purse and opening the containers with medication that could be fatal to him.

You could almost see the lighthbulb go on over her head as she had that "aha" moment. Part of parenting is thinking ahead and examining what sort of consequences might result for us in the future in relation to the parenting decisions we make today.

I'm not saying we should wield a mighty sword, but a bit more forthought in how we deal with the cute things our babies and toddlers do may make for more work then, but will make life much easier in the long run.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm another in the "natural if possible, logical if not" camp for this sort of thing, as well as prevention whenever possible. So I would definitely have taken the sissors. I have also been known to remove the couch when neither child could stop jumping on it with wet swimsuits... Food would definitely be a "you are excused" situation, and I would probably also request help at clean up time.

Laundry has become the kids first real need-to-do-it chore (mine are 5 and 8, BTW). I wash, fold and sort. Kids are required to put it in the proper drawer. At first this was highly directed -- DH or I supervised as they put one pile after another away. Now I can mostly just say "There is laundry to be put away before bed". I rarely get "no" when I ask them to do something. if so, I generally ask them to articulate why something needs to be done, and why its not fair for me to do it. They usually cooperate because I don't ask them to do things arbitrarily. DS did decide one day that wearing something other than his uniform shirt to school was preferable to putting away (and thus having handy) his shirts. I let the school issue a uniform warning and that solved that -- no punishment involved other than having to explain to the teacher why he was out of uniform and having the kids all ask him all day. I have also used the "waiting for the bus" technique as well.

On another track though, any time I find myself feeling out of control, threatening or making parenting mis-steps, I've learned to take a step backwards and look at the overall picture. Is everyone getting enough sleep? Eating reasonably healthly food on a good schedule? Getting enough outside play time? Is there stress between DH and I? Is there something stressful going on in the kids lives that is spilling over? Have the kids moved to a new developmental stage and I didn't notice and adjust accordingly? That's the sort of longer-term prevention that can work miracles.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GradysMom* 
Just yesterday I threatened to throw away my 23mo brand new hot wheels cars (like 5 hours old) because he was refusing to get dresses and whinning and running amuk 5 min after the child I watch was picked up. I just wanted to go out to catch dh for dinner out... and ds was fast on his way to Crazy man mode.

So I grabbed the box full of cars held it up high and threatened to throw them away inthe garbage.... this makes me a bad parent?

I feel like I'm doing so well with the non-hitting... and I know I have to work on the yelling, and I'm getting there.... so what part of my decision was horrible.... It got his attention, when we calmed down, we talked about it, he gave me a hug...

I feel dizzy trying to see why that is a horrible parenting technique. Sure it didn't feel good but ds was losing sight of everything but his inner world of yucky feelings... i did it to get him back to reality...

fill me in

Well, at 23 months, he really does not "get" it. And taking away/throwing away his cars doesn't really have anything to do with his behavior. In that case, it was purely arbitrary. A 23 month old acting wild is pretty normal, and most likely he was overstimulated, tired, hungry, bored...I might have looked into why he was acting that way and then figured out a solution from there.

With an older child, I would have no problem taking away cars if they were somehow a problem (refusing to pick them up, throwing them, continuing to play with them when it was time to move on to something else, etc.). But I also wouldn't threaten it if I weren't prepared to go through with it...and most likely, they wouldn't go in the trash. They would be put away until the situation was resolved appropriately.

As for the OP, in your situation, my response would be:

1) Loss of scissor privileges
2) When food gets thrown on the floor, meal's over. It's time to clear your plate and help clean up the mess that you made. I don't think that a little bit of play and silliness is harmful at a meal (it's hard to sit still when you are little!), but once food starts getting thrown on the floor, then we're done.
3) I'd ask DD to help me re-fold the laundry and put it away. I'd also be careful about leaving folded laundry out where little kids can get into it...that kind of thing can be irresistable.

I also agree with the person who said that it's likely that your DD has no idea when some of these things became unacceptable. I think we forget sometimes that our kids are just little kids, and some of the things that seem so natural to us are things that they just haven't learned yet. I think it would be a good idea to sit down and discuss some house rules with DD. Don't just give her the rules, but explain why, and ask for her input too. It would be a good opportunity for a discussion about what's expected of everyone in the house, and it would probably make her feel really good to participate.


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## jtbuko (Sep 28, 2006)

Hi! I've got one between 4.5 and 5 too and it has become a tricky age for us. The last week or so I have found myself having to work a lot harder to keep myself calm than I am used to with him and occasionally failing and raising my voice. Its disheartening to fall into these occasional ruts that seem to take me away from from my parenting ideals... and good to take a step back and see that others may be going through challenging times too. This thread has been really helpful. I appreciate how folks are gently articulating their advice on here


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## jtbuko (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GradysMom* 
Just yesterday I threatened to throw away my 23mo brand new hot wheels cars (like 5 hours old) because he was refusing to get dresses and whinning and running amuk 5 min after the child I watch was picked up. I just wanted to go out to catch dh for dinner out... and ds was fast on his way to Crazy man mode.

So I grabbed the box full of cars held it up high and threatened to throw them away inthe garbage.... this makes me a bad parent?

I feel like I'm doing so well with the non-hitting... and I know I have to work on the yelling, and I'm getting there.... so what part of my decision was horrible.... It got his attention, when we calmed down, we talked about it, he gave me a hug...

I feel dizzy trying to see why that is a horrible parenting technique. Sure it didn't feel good but ds was losing sight of everything but his inner world of yucky feelings... i did it to get him back to reality...

fill me in

I also take care of other kids and it can add an extra layer of stress and behavior issues to deal with in your relationship with your own (at least that is the case in my house).

One problem I see with threatening to throw away the cars is that it is teaching your child that it is ok to throw away something that is still perfectly useful. Maybe you could rephrase to giving it away rather than throwing it away (more a change in environmental teaching than parenting style).
The other is that it seems unrelated to the behavior based on your description. I think that there are situations where taking a toy away could be a logical or natural consequence, and that in those cases one way to approach it is by offering a choice of playing more gently/ appropriately with it or waiting until older or in a better mood or even giving it away.

All that said - it does not make you a horrible parent... just reflects a parenting moment worth mulling over which you are obviously already doing.

Re the working not to yell. I never thought I'd have to work hard not to yell, but it is challenging sometimes and I think choices can be a good way out of the habit. I do know they are always more effective than yelling for my kids, and I am guessing that your threat to throw away the cars was probably more effective than yelling would have been. I incorporate some choice based parenting, but struggle with the fuzzy line between limited choices and punitive choices. However, I do feel that even a less than ideal choice is far better than yelling and in my case brings out better behavior in my kids.

hth


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## rainbringer (Dec 2, 2007)

I've really fallen into threats with my 5 year old. I am not sure why, I didn't use them much when she was younger, but now it seems like I have to state a consequence for anything I want her to do or she won't do it. Now (not surprisingly) she is trying to give me consequences when I don't do what she wants.

I like the ideas in Secret of Parenting, but they don't seem to be working for us.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Have you considered posting on the TCS list, or on a CL list? Those folks might have more experience with your philosophy & situation. GD and CL are not exactly the same and other CLs might have info that are more reflective of your beliefs.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

OMG, these ideas are fantastic! I love the idea of seeking her input. Roar, you're right of course about the disconnect, that's the whole point of this thread. How GD is it to threaten to cut a hole in a child's bed, which I would never do, obviously, but puhleez, talk about empty threats!!!

I do not think I am CL or TCS. I think I'm going to strive for good old fashioned GD right now until I get some of this handled better.

I also appreciate the insight about how I should have stopped the laundry throwing at a younger age. It's too late for the laundry, but there are millions of other things that I have to think about.

Thank you for these great ideas, I'm going to save this entire thread and print it out.

Oh, I forgot to mention -- yes, scissor privileges were removed for the first cuts, the enlargements were done by fork.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

OP, I think posters have given you a lot of great advice, I just wanted to add a couple of things that work for us.

1. Put the scissors up (which you said you did). On top of that, you might talk to her about having respect for her and your possessions. I would do this at times when there isn't a conflict but as part of your discussions with your DD.

Since DD was real little, we talked about having respect for our things. We treat our possessions with respect because otherwise we'd have to throw them away and we wouldn't have them anymore. This is kind of dorky but I keep Laura Ingalls in mind when I talk about DD's toys. If Laura cut up her doll, she wouldn't have a doll because things were not so absurdly inexpensive that Ma and Pa could run out to Walmart and pick one up. So if DD starts to destroy something I remind her that if it breaks, it goes in the garbage and I will not buy another one. If she breaks something communal (on purpose) then I tell her there will be no more Hot Wheels cars for a while because the family money needs to go to replace the thing she broke.

2. If she throws food, she must be done. Accidentally dropping food is one thing but wasting food by throwing it is unacceptable and means she cannot be hungry.

3. Laundry throwing means she needs to refold it. Sure it is fun to toss laundry up in the air but ruining someone's hard work is disrespectful. Maybe invite her to throw the laundry into the air before you fold it?

I also think you need to assign your DD age-appropriate jobs. It is OK to help her out with the jobs and give her a break if you feel she needs it but there should be something that is her responsibility. At 3, DD's jobs are helping Daddy take out the garbage, setting the table for dinner and picking up her toys in the living room. Oh, and putting away folded laundry.









Your daughter might react better to cleaning if it is a game. The flylady recommends doing a timer thing and we modified it. Set the timer for 15 minutes and DD cleans up her toys with direction (first pick up the legos, next pick up the cars) from me while I clean something I need to do. Then when the buzzer dings we drop everything and I read her 1 story on the couch. Repeat.

YMMV of course.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Treasuremapper* 
Oh, I forgot to mention -- yes, scissor privileges were removed for the first cuts, the enlargements were done by fork.

Hmm... Maybe a response to boredom? If she was watching TV or something and did this, I think my response might be no unsupervised TV watching (which, of course, naturally limits TV to time I can sit down with child -- severely limiting TV as a result). If just sitting around and bored, then "If you are bored I would be happy to find you something to do" -- "something" always being whatever cleaning I'm working on or whatever is next on my "to do" list. Of course, also accompanied by looking at the larger picture and finding ways to spend more time with child and/or do more activities and/or sign up child for something interesting to do for the summer and/or arrange more playdates... Whatever it might take to have a more engaged child for the summer.

If angry "I'll show you" destruction, then I might handle it differently. Again, a "this isn't acceptable behavior" response with child but also examining things for the underlying cause of anger. As you can see -- I'm of the mindset that there is rarely one single, simple answer to "misbehavior" -- I think it almost always takes a couple of different approaches to actually eliminate problems.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Ita with natensarah. I don't think that part of being GD, or even CL, is hiding how you feel and pretending to be ok with everything, and explaining calmly and rationally all the time. I've seen people react to something like hitting the same way I'd tell ds why there are clouds in the sky. lol.

I tried to be noncoercive, and it wasn't working for me. I'd try really really hard to see ds's pov, and try to find an agreeable solution, but I wasn't able to do it all the time. So I'd either just give in and let him have what he wanted even though it wasn't agreeable to me, or I'd end up yelling or shaming (and once I threw something because he was bugging me with it














.
So I read Secret of Parenting, and started using some of the techniques

oh crud...gotta go. I have a dentist appt in 15 minutes!!!

eta: whew! I made it in time.

At any rate, I read SOP and started using some of the techniques, and realized that I am much more gentle when I allow myself to just say no sometimes, and be in charge sometimes. I don't yell, shame, or throw things. And...I find that I work (happily) to find agreeable solutions maybe even more often than before. I do it because, in the moment, I want to and it feels right. Not because I feel like I have to because I want to be CL (or whatever), kwim?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I only have a few words about the couch cutting thing. My daughter never actually cut anything, but she would ask if she could cut things that absolutely could not be cut. I asked her why she was wanting to cut these things, and it turned out that she wanted to cut fabric. She thought it would be more fun to cut fabric than paper. So I bought a box of scrap fabric at a garage sale and let her go at it. If the couch cutting thing isn't about destructiveness and is more about curiosity about scissors and fabric, that might help.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

UPDATE: Here it is, just eight days after I posted that. My dd is just going through some major developmental milestones, all at once. I think she was just grappling with the changes!! I feel so embarrassed for failing to recognize what was going on.

1. She moved to her own bedroom on her own initiative just around the time of my original post.

2 Tonight, barely a week after my original post, she told me that she doesn't need to nurse any more, she wants to wean and fall asleep on her own. Totally CLW!

3. Her behavior is suddenly cheerful and easy again!!! OMG!!!

This is a huge thing for me to remember about my daughters. She may have been engaging in a lot of age inappropriate behavior because she was going through some decisions about making some big leaps. Doing those things like cutting the sofa, throwing food on the floor, throwing laundry on the floor -- all of those things are really regressions to a time of toddlerhood, and all done with increasing frequency the very week before she decides to move to her own room and wean.

Pretty amazing little human.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Thanks for the very interesting update! Hearing things like this helps remind me that there is always a root cause for my kids behavior, even when I can't figure it out. This is a great reminder to stay cool when bad stuff happens.

I appreciate you sharing with us!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I know, I need to look behind the behavior and into the root cause. I never predicted this.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Treasuremapper* 
She may have been engaging in a lot of age inappropriate behavior because she was going through some decisions about making some big leaps. Doing those things like cutting the sofa, throwing food on the floor, throwing laundry on the floor -- all of those things are really regressions to a time of toddlerhood, and all done with increasing frequency the very week before she decides to move to her own room and wean.

Interesting update!

Ds is getting into some strange behavior, and I did some reading online and I'm fairly certain it has to do with regressing (mainly in dealing with his anger and disappointment about some things) because he's making some major developmental advancements in other areas.
Actually, now that I think of it, he's slept in his own room the last two nights. He never even came close before 2 nights ago!

He's definitely gaining more understanding of numbers and letters, and beginning to learn to spell his name, etc. It seems like a big step! So it all makes sense. Doesn't make it fun to deal with, but it makes sense. lol


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