# Circumcision repair for my 16 month old son next Wednesday.



## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Can you guys prepare me for surgery? I know how hard it will be for me but what can I do for ds? I have essential oils, homeopathic kits, vitamins....what do I need to do before surgery?

A little about why. We had ds circumcised at birth. I didnt want to do it but dh insisted. Why I didnt just say "too bad", I dont know.







Anyway, ds basically look like he was not circumcised. The skin hangs down over the penis where just the head of the penis barely shows. There is also a hole in the foreskin. Apparently, the nitrate strips (is that was they are called) burned a hole through the skin. You can pull the skin all the way up and over the penis and look straight through the hole. The urologist said he was lucky it only made that hole. It could have done much worse. He asked if it was ok to show his nurse. She was busy so I got him dressed and prepared to leave. He came back and asked could I please undress him one more time, he just needed to show her this. He has never seen anything like it before. He did say he repairs 500 circumcisions a year.

So, here we are a week from surgery. What can I do to help him through this? My new ped (love her!) and Gitti have both told me to make sure they dont cut off too much skin. That that could cause more problems later. What do I say to the doc to make sure he is not cutting off too much? The way I understood it was he was just going to remove the extra skin which would take away that big hole too.

Thanks a bunch!!


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

Is this surgery for cosmetic reasons only? If so, I would not have the surgery done, and wait for your son to have it done *if he chooses to* as an adult.

What you have described (if I read it correctly) doesn't sound like a functional or medical problem. If it is, please correct me


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

He has a hole in his foreskin. I think that would be the non cosmetic problem.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
He has a hole in his foreskin. I think that would be the non cosmetic problem.


I think what the PP meant, is does it seem to hurt or bother him?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thundersweet*
What do I say to the doc to make sure he is not cutting off too much? The way I understood it was he was just going to remove the extra skin which would take away that big hole too.

Since he's only 16 months old, IMHO, maybe you should hold off on the corrective surgery for a while, at least until his penis is larger. I have a 15 month old son so I know how tiny those penises are







Unless the hole is getting worse, or seems to bother him it's probably best to wait until the urologist have more to work with.

Again, just my honest opinion.

~Nay

~Nay


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Yeah I came back in here because I had another tought, wouldn't it be possible to stitch the hole rather than cutting off more skin?


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Well, it looks very bad. I guess it would be cosmetic. I did this to him. I made the stupid decision to have him circumcised. How can I leave it and expect him to deal with it later. Dh said he would definitely need it done at some point. The problem is at this point and time the doctor is fighting with our insurance company. They dont want to pay for it. Its possible it will be canceled based on that. I am sitting here waiting to here back from her. It was supposed to be taken care of by noon. Its now almost 2:30. So if I wait, which I would be inclined to do....I lose the ability for our insurance to pay for the entire surgery. The doctor said they normally wont approve them past 2 months. But he felt 100% sure that would approve this one.


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## underthebluerug (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
Yeah I came back in here because I had another tought, wouldn't it be possible to stitch the hole rather than cutting off more skin?









:

I also agree with Nay about waiting if at all possible until his penis grows more. The tinier it is, the more vulnerable, obviously, because there is indeed so little to work with. And 500 repairs a year of other doctor's circumcision disasters speaks very loudly to me.
















Poor little guy. Hugs to you, mama.


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *underthebluerug*







:
And 500 repairs a year of other doctor's circumcision disasters speaks very loudly to me.















Poor little guy. Hugs to you, mama.

Yes it does!


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

I wonder about this too. If it's cosmetic, you should leave it for him to fix later. I would be SO worried about too much being taken off. There is no way for them to know what too much is at this age. When he's grown, they will be able to tell much better. The penis is going to grow and change so much with puberty, you don't know what any removal will do, that is why they perform loose circs nowadays, trying to prevent all the trouble with insufficient skin.
Removing a tiny bit of skin now can turn out to be a much bigger bit of skin that is missing later.
If it's cosmetic, I think you should just leave it. This is the exact same logic that applies to not circing in the first place (I'm really not trying to flagellate you, sorry). It's cosmetic, so why is it your responsibility to decide what his penis should look like? Yes, sometime down the road you're going to have to pick up your cahones and admit to him that you did a wrong thing to him. But that's going to have to happen regardless of 'repairing' this or not.


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeosMama*
The penis is going to grow and change so much with puberty, you don't know what any removal will do, that is why they perform loose circs nowadays, trying to prevent all the trouble with insufficient skin.

I did not know this. They are now doing them loose? Even my holistic wonderful ped said she thought something should be done but just not to cut too much. Maybe I should schedule a quick appt with her to take a look again tomorrow since she looks at many little penises.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would also wait until later. Who knows- he might think it's cool later.... But really, if they're going to fix it by cutting off MORE I absolutely would not do it. Think- they will be taking away that much more sensation and that much more possibility of a semi-normally functioning penis (of course it will never be normal, but if he has enough foreskin to at least cover the head now that is better than many...)

just my $.02

-Angela


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

I would absolutely wait. What may seem like a "big" hole now may be inconsequential in ten years. And besides, you really don't want to remove what foreskin he has left!


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

He has a hole in his foreskin. I think that would be the non cosmetic problem.
I guess I should have been a little more clear. If the hole does not affect the basic function of his penis, and "fixing" it would be just so that it would look "better" then I would consider that cosmetic and optional. If that were the case, then I, personally, would not further alter my child's genitalia.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

You should cancel the surgery. You never wanted him circ'd in the first place. He was lucky enough to be left with much of his foreskin. Why would you now take the rest of it from him? Have you read about the functions of the foreskin? Any more cutting is only going to further the damage and loss.

Why would you do cosmetic surgery on a child's genitals? It's not like a body part that everyone is going to see. The hole might even close up on it's own.


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

What alternatives have the doctors given to you? Why can't the hole be slit and stitched closed with no removal of more skin?

The only way I can see you knowing how much is being taken off is to have the doctor draw with pen on the skin exactly what will be removed. Otherwise, like going to the barber for a haircut, a little trim may end up being scalped. In addition, unless your husband is now horrified at the thought of his child being circumcised (again), then there is nothing stopping him from requesting to have all the remaining skin lopped off.

I am not in your shoes, but you said that you didn't want it to be done at birth and lament "Why I didn't just say "too bad", I don't know." Don't just hope, don't just wish, make sure that your son is treated fairly. I would think that the best course of action would be to excise the scar tissue (which I assume is through the double fold of the skin), cut an incision between them and stitch the now straight line back together.

By the way, the money you get from suing the doctor should be enough to cover the surgery, and then some. I would suggest taking photos before the procedure, and getting the current doctor's notes for evidence.


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

I dont know what to do now. He is not being re-circumcised. The urologist is going to remove some of the loose skin that hangs and along with that the hole would go. The hole itself is getting bigger. It started out the size of maybe a stud earing and is now bigger than a pencil eraser. Bigger and more oval shaped. The skin hangs and droops. He doesn't look like he was left intact or circumcised. It just looks strange. Dh says it will affect the way he feels about his body later. He will hide it and be embarrased. My mom, a nurse, told me she thinks it needs to be done. She has seen many of both uncircumcised and circumcised and says he looks like neither. Her opinion was to spare him the embarrasment later and get it taken care of with clear instruction to the doc about removing too much skin. I just don't know. I have some thinking to do. I wish I could show a picture but that would be wrong.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
I dont know what to do now. He is not being re-circumcised. The urologist is going to remove some of the loose skin that hangs and along with that the hole would go. The hole itself is getting bigger. It started out the size of maybe a stud earing and is now bigger than a pencil eraser. Bigger and more oval shaped. The skin hangs and droops. He doesn't look like he was left intact or circumcised. It just looks strange. Dh says it will affect the way he feels about his body later. He will hide it and be embarrased. My mom, a nurse, told me she thinks it needs to be done. She has seen many of both uncircumcised and circumcised and says he looks like neither. Her opinion was to spare him the embarrasment later and get it taken care of with clear instruction to the doc about removing too much skin. I just don't know. I have some thinking to do. I wish I could show a picture but that would be wrong.










Okay, not to be harsh, but your dh who INSISTED that you circ your infant son in the first place thinks he'll be embarassed? What does he know? He doesn't have ANY foreskin.

Your mom is a nurse, sure she's seen a few intact people- has she asked them what they think? of course not.

If they are taking off more skin, they ARE re-circing him, no matter if they try to call it something else to make you happy.

It's your son's penis. Let him be the one to decide.










-Angela


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Thundersweet, I agree with the others who suggest waiting - or at least finding out if there is a less drastic way to fix the hole. Another circumcision sounds to me like using a fingertip-to-shoulder cast for a broken pinky.

As for the insurance - my insurance does not cover infant circumcision (they classify it as cosmetic), AND they don't cover treatment of complications of cosmetic surgery. So if I were in your shoes, none of the treatment would be covered.

Someone earlier commented that your son might think the hole is cool later - that made me think of people that WILLINGLY have their genitals pierced! If your son turned out to be one of those people, he'd be ahead of the game, wouldn't he?

I hope you don't take my comments to be overly flip or callous. I empathize with your situation, and I truly hope you and your son's doctors can come up with a solution that makes sense for everyone (and doesn't just ensure that the urologist can make his Corvette payment this month).


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

Quote:

I did not know this. They are now doing them loose? Even my holistic wonderful ped said she thought something should be done but just not to cut too much. Maybe I should schedule a quick appt with her to take a look again tomorrow since she looks at many little penises.
Hi Sandy,
To my understanding the major complication with a loose circumcision is adhesions. But this is only a complication from the perspective of circumcision being normal. When you think about it from intact being normal, you learn that in infants and many young boys (pre-pubescent) the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis. This is how it is designed, it is supposed to be this way. It is adhered to the penis in the same way that your fingernail is adhered to the nail bed. So if you were to have left the penis intact, the foreskin would be adhered to the head. You would not mess with this at all. Ever. You would let the boy do what he wanted to it (it's his penis, he knows what hurts), but you nor a doctor would ever retract the foreskin.
Many boys lose this adherence by age 5, many do not. In nearly all boys, this is lost by or during puberty. So once the body has naturally separated the two surfaces of skin, the foreskin will retract easily and comfortably.
To retract it before that time will cause trauma both to the skin (foreskin and the head) and to the ring of tissue at the end of the foreskin by stretching it before it has softened into elasticity.

So for your son's situation, this ring of tissue at the end of the foreskin has been removed. This is no longer something to worry about damaging by early retraction. But he does still have some of his foreskin and in many boys with loose circumcision, the remaining foreskin will adhere to the head of the penis, which was the state it was in before the circumcision. There is nothing wrong with this adherence. It is normal and should be left alone. There is nothing wrong with still having this tissue here. It means that your son still has his frenulum (which is one of the most sensitive parts!) and if he's lucky, it might mean that as an adult he will be able to stretch out his foreskin enough to recover the head. When the foreskin is stretched back over the head of the penis, the glans will again become slick and lubricated, moist, as it is in intact men. This restores a lot of sensitivity to the circumcised penis.

So a loose circ in and of itself isn't necessarily anything to 'fix'. This part wasn't botched. I agree that the hole is something you need to seek monetary redress for. But polarbear has a good idea, just clearing out the scar tissue and stitching it all back together. Or maybe superglue. They use glue in a lot of surgeries now, b/c sometimes stitches are too big and clumsy and can cause more damage and scarring.

Now, all that being said, Frank or someone else may come along and correct some of what I've written if I am in error. If so, I will make appropriate edits.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Thundersweet, your son won't think it's weird unless someone tells him it's weird (and I pray that your DH would never say such a thing to his son). Children tend to assume that whatever they are familiar with is normal.

My sons are 11 years old, and as far as I know they have not looked at other boys' genitals, nor has anyone looked at theirs. When my sons learned about circumcision (and that it was done to their Dad), they were shocked. They knew his penis looked different from theirs, but they just assumed that he kept his foreksin retracted. Possibly they figured that his looked like an adult penis (complete with pubic hair), while theirs were still kid-style.

My kids are worried about their acne - which shows - but they are dealing with it. They never think twice about what others think of their penises - because no one ever sees them.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Is there any possibility the hole can be fixed with a skin graft? I don't know if grafted skin is flexible enough for erections later in life, but I would urge you to investigate it, just in case.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
Dh says it will affect the way he feels about his body later. He will hide it and be embarrased. My mom, a nurse, told me she thinks it needs to be done. She has seen many of both uncircumcised and circumcised and says he looks like neither. Her opinion was to spare him the embarrasment later and get it taken care of with clear instruction to the doc about removing too much skin. I just don't know. I have some thinking to do. I wish I could show a picture but that would be wrong.









Ok, so DH has weighed in, mom has weighed in, the money grubbing surgeon has weighed in, what does your son think should be done with _his_ penis? Oh wait, he can't speak for himself so basically all these people are mucking around with *his* penis, talking about cutting even _more_ of it off bc it offends *them*, because in their esteemed opinions- which let's face it, hasn't done his penis much good up to this point- it will bother him when he's older. Where's my crystal ball, I wanna be able to see into the future, too!

Let me see, how shall I put this? Hmmmmm....

*LEAVE HIS FREAKING PENIS ALONE*

Unless it's medically necessary don't cut any MORE pieces of of it, for cripes sake, and tell your DH to piss off if he doesn't like it. I mean, my god, what's the goal here ? To cut the whole thing off? He only has so much penis he can part with before he has none left.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but learn from your mistakes already....and go forth and tell everyone you meet what happened to your son and how horrible RIC is.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
I dont know what to do now. He is not being re-circumcised. The urologist is going to remove some of the loose skin that hangs and along with that the hole would go. The hole itself is getting bigger. It started out the size of maybe a stud earing and is now bigger than a pencil eraser. Bigger and more oval shaped. The skin hangs and droops. He doesn't look like he was left intact or circumcised. It just looks strange. Dh says it will affect the way he feels about his body later. He will hide it and be embarrased. My mom, a nurse, told me she thinks it needs to be done. She has seen many of both uncircumcised and circumcised and says he looks like neither. Her opinion was to spare him the embarrasment later and get it taken care of with clear instruction to the doc about removing too much skin. I just don't know. I have some thinking to do. I wish I could show a picture but that would be wrong.









Ok, I know you are feeling badly about this, so just remember I'm saying this very gently--this operation WOULD BE re-circumcising him. "Removing some of the loose skin that hangs" is removing more foreskin--just making a tighter circumcision. The hole would be removed with this extra skin being cut, but at what cost? This could cause all sorts of problems. Painful erections, hair on the shaft of his penis from the skin being stretched too tight...just a host of issues that he won't have if you just leave him be.
No one can tell you how he'll feel about his body later. If you just leave it, and in 10-15-20 years from now he IS bothered by it, he can absolutely opt for the surgery! No problem! But he can never, ever, *ever* get it back if it's taken away from him. One of the many, many problems with circumcision is that a dr can't tell how much skin is "too much". You don't know how a penis will grow, or how much skin is too much. It's all guess work. ALL of it. From the very first cut, it's guesswork. I have been with men who have had a tight circumcision. I won't go into detail, but it's not something I would wish on any man--or their sexual partner. Please please please, just leave your baby alone for now. You can ALWAYS revisit this when he is older, and when he has a say.

And I have to add one more thing. It does not matter to anyone--not your dh, not your mother, not you, not ANYONE--if your son's penis looks "strange". What are they going to do, frame it and hang it in the dining room?? It's not theirs (or yours) to make "look pretty". It matters ONLY to him, and his future sexual partners. It's not a mantle decoration, it doesn't matter if it's not asthetically pleasing to anyone BUT him.


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## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*
Ok, so DH has weighed in, mom has weighed in, the money grubbing surgeon has weighed in, what does your son think should be done with _his_ penis? Oh wait, he can't speak for himself so basically all these people are mucking around with *his* penis, talking about cutting even _more_ of it off bc it offends *them*, because in their esteemed opinions- which let's face it, hasn't done his penis much good up to this point- it will bother him when he's older. Where's my crystal ball, I wanna be able to see into the future, too!

Let me see, how shall I put this? Hmmmmm....

*LEAVE HIS FREAKING PENIS ALONE*


I totally agree! Thundersweet, this post is harsh-sounding, but every word is truthful. Please read it again and take it to heart.

And I'm so, so sorry that you and your son are in this situation. I can't imagine the thoughts and emotions I'd have. You WILL get through this, though. Stay strong.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

to you, mama. Sounds like you're getting a lot of pressure from the people around you - your dh, your mom, your doctor, etc. - but I agree with the previous posters, unless there's a MEDICAL reason for the surgery, it should wait until your son is older.

If he's fully grown, there will be no question about his penis size and how much skin he needs to accomodate a full erection. My understanding of the way that doctors do adult circs is that they have the man achieve an erection and then mark the skin to be cut with a marker. Obviously in a baby you're not going to know how much skin to take off.

My ds was born in 1967 and evidently very tight circs were in style at his hospital.







It has caused curvature and can be very uncomfortable for him when he's aroused. IMO you just do not want to run the risk of making things worse.

As far as the teasing issue - really, I don't think it will be an issue. The whole "locker room" thing is way overblown. As long as no one in your family makes your son feel ashamed or inferior, he will grow up with healthy self-esteem. You can teach him to value himself no matter if he has differences from the other kids - whether he wears glasses, his ears stick out, he has freckles, or a different-looking penis, there's always something to tease about. The way to deal with bullying is to love your child and support him, not perform cosmetic surgery on him.


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

The surgery was approved. I still do not know what I am going to do. I rescheduled it until mid January. I do think some of you are being very harsh. The nurse read me what was in the report. It basically says he has redundant forskin with a large hole on the right side. I spoke with her about my problem with all of this. She did say that most of their patients are 14-16 years old. They also do alot of circumcision on intact boys who make the decision to have it done. But for the most part its removing the redundant skin. Basically like my son I guess.

For now, I will wait and do a little more reading. My sons penis looks like a mushroom. That the closest I can describe it. It does not just come down neatly. Its just all at the end bunched up and open. Like a mushroom top.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

BTW, wtf is the dr doing showing his nurse your kid's penis? Why would he even ask you that? What business is it of hers? Is she in medical school and currently studying Male Genitalia and the Things We Amputate From Them? Was it just fun for him to say "Check out how f u this kid's penis is! I hope people keep circing so that I can make enough for the Porche I've been wanting. Re-circs are where it's at, baby".

You're son's penis will probably look far more normal when he gets older than you think. All penises look different anyway, circed or intact. How it _feels_ to him, that's what's important. And more tissue means more feeling.

edit: for misspelling of 'genitalia',


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
The surgery was approved. I still do not know what I am going to do. I rescheduled it until mid January. I do think some of you are being very harsh. The nurse read me what was in the report. It basically says he has redundant forskin with a large hole on the right side. I spoke with her about my problem with all of this. She did say that most of their patients are 14-16 years old. They also do alot of circumcision on intact boys who make the decision to have it done. But for the most part its removing the redundant skin. Basically like my son I guess.

For now, I will wait and do a little more reading. My sons penis looks like a mushroom. That the closest I can describe it. It does not just come down neatly. Its just all at the end bunched up and open. Like a mushroom top.









If you are worried about what your son's penis looks like now, please go here:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
and take a look around at some "neat circumcisions". All to make it look "neat" and "not strange".

And "redundant foreskin" makes no sense at all. The foreskin is not "redundant", as there is no other organ that does what the foreskin does.

I'm sorry that some of this is coming across as harsh. But someone with a scalpel already screwed up when futzing around with your sons penis, why on earth would you let someone ELSE near it?


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
...redundant forskin...(

What is that?


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Terrible situation. I agree that you now have a second chance to make a better decision. You can't go back to before it was done, but you can choose to not make it any worse now.

I understand you that the hole is getting bigger. Does it seem to cause him any discomfort? Is it hard to clean? Given that it is getting bigger, I would probably consider fixing it also. I just wouldn't cut more off just to get rid of the hole. I agree with the other posters who said why not cut from the hole to the end of the foreskin, then sew it up?

I am glad that you posted. Hopefully you will get support (even those who are being blunt really are trying to get you to do the best you can with the current situation) and you will also be an example to other moms who may come here trying to make the circ decision - that problems really do occur and you can get yourself into more complications and issues by choosing circ.

I really wouldn't let the doctors cut more of his foreskin off.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

"removing redundant foreskin" IS a circumcision. I think it's wise to call a spade a spade right now.

Is it possible to sue the original circumciser for malpractice? How awful!

I'm sorry you guys are going through this... it cannot be easy to see your way to a good decision from a bad situation. But I completely agree. It isn't wise to surgically muck around with a baby. You have no idea what his penis will be like when he grows up, or how he will feel about it.

If he has it done as a teen, or an adult, he can interview docs, choose a style of circumcision that he likes best... or he can choose to enjoy what foreskin he has remaining. He may even be able to find a doc who can help him actually repair the foreskin, instead of calling a re-circumcision a "repair."

Hugs, mama.


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## mamacarla (Jul 25, 2004)

Get a lawyer and sue the doctor that burned a hole in your sons' penis!

Unless there is a valid, emergent, medical reason to re-circumcise your son right now, please leave him alone. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I understand that this is hard to hear but we are not born with redundant parts that should be cut off at will by our parents. That phrase "redundant skin" really pisses me off.

Thank you for being brave enough to post here - we can be a tough crowd but it is only because we care so much.

Carla


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

THundersweet, there is no such thing as redundant foreskin (the term is pretty offensive also). Foreskin comes in all different lenghts, none being redundant. The fact that someone would call it that shows they know little about foreskin and are biased against it. I would try really hard to find somoene who doesn't think any foreskin is redundant and is educated about keeping foreskin NOT getting rid of it.

I'd research this extensively before I decided to re-circumcise my child.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

The foreskin isn't extra; it comes standard. There is no such thing as a "redundant foreskin". He already has significantly less than he was designed by nature/god to have. The fact that he has a looser circumcision doesn't mean it was botched. They left him some skin to grow into, so he won't have painful tight erections that split and bleed or shaft skin so tight it pulls his testical skin and/or pubic hair up onto it. He's already lost nerves and blood vessels...cutting off more just means more loss. Have you seen the Lost List? http://www.norm.org/lost.html.

You might also want to check out NOHARMM's "Know Your Rights" ( http://www.noharmm.org/knowrights.htm ) and the website for Attorney's for the Rights of the Child: http://www.arclaw.org/

What was the consent form you signed like? Did it mention burning a hole through the remaining skin as a risk? If not, you probably have grounds to sue.

Jen


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
My sons penis looks like a mushroom. That the closest I can describe it. It does not just come down neatly. Its just all at the end bunched up and open. Like a mushroom top.









Think very, _very_ carefully about what you are saying. You are wanting to alter your son's penis bc you find it cosmetically unappealing. That's most likely why you circumcised him to begin with and that didn't work out so well. So think very hard about your preconceived notions of what a penis should look like and if you should alter your child's body without his permission *again* because you are having trouble with it's appearance. Imagine explaining this whole situation to him in the future. Would you rather say "We wrongly had you circed then left it alone so that you could be in controil of your own body. We learned from our mistakes." or would you rather tell him "We had you circed bc that's what we thought was right. It turned out badly so we let them do it again and hoped that it wouldn't make things even worse."

Your statement:
"They also do alot of circumcision on intact boys who make the decision to have it done."

Notice that you wrote that the boys make the decision when they are old enough to do so, the parents didn't make it for them. Make sure you also note that the drs and nurses have a huge financial stake in telling you that many intact boys want to be circed...that's their bread and butter.

I truly understand that you feel terrible about the situation and that you think your son's penis looks totally weird and odd but please really think about whether two wrongs make a right and think about what terrible things might happen if you let them cut on him again. Please please please do a lot of research first before making any *irreversable* decisions. That's great that you have postponed the surgery. You can do that indefinitely.


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## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm going to go against most of you here. If the hole is getting bigger, I see it as an injury that must be repaired.

I don't see why the hole can't be stitched up like you would do anywhere else on the body.

But I'm going to disagree with everyone who is saying leave the hole alone. It is a hole. It needs to be repaired. Would you want to have a hole in your anatomy and find out that it's there and growing because your mom wanted to let you make a decision about it?


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
I'm going to go against most of you here. If the hole is getting bigger, I see it as an injury that must be repaired.

I don't see why the hole can't be stitched up like you would do anywhere else on the body.

But I'm going to disagree with everyone who is saying leave the hole alone. It is a hole. It needs to be repaired. Would you want to have a hole in your anatomy and find out that it's there and growing because your mom wanted to let you make a decision about it?

If the hole was in or around my clitoris, yes. I'd rather have a functioning but strange looking one than none at all.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
But I'm going to disagree with everyone who is saying leave the hole alone. It is a hole. It needs to be repaired. Would you want to have a hole in your anatomy and find out that it's there and growing because your mom wanted to let you make a decision about it?

Better than I'd feel if she had more of my genitals cut off so my dad and the original circumciser could pretend it never happened.

At a point where the kid is going to be concerned about the cosmetic appearance of his penis, he is old enough to make some informed decisions about what to do with it.

But *right now* the only two options this mama has is a) Cut more of the foreskin off and b) leave it alone.

Because foreskin has intrinsic value of its own, option a needs to go right out the window. Leaving it alone leaves the mama time to get her ducks in a row to protect her baby.

The docs are lying to her, and Georgia isn't precisely the most enlightened state in the union regarding foreskins. She needs to leave it alone so the baby can finish growing into his skin, and have an opinion on how to manage the issue.

ETA: _And she needs to sue the doctor!_Frivolous lawsuits irk me as much as the next person, but there is nothing frivolous about this. She could put that money in trust for the kid's possible future surgery, if it'd make her feel any better.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minky*
I'm going to go against most of you here. If the hole is getting bigger, I see it as an injury that must be repaired.

I don't see why the hole can't be stitched up like you would do anywhere else on the body.

But I'm going to disagree with everyone who is saying leave the hole alone. It is a hole. It needs to be repaired. Would you want to have a hole in your anatomy and find out that it's there and growing because your mom wanted to let you make a decision about it?

But why? Why does the hole need to be repaired? There needs to be a medical reason to subject the baby to the risk of further surgery - especially surgery that may remove skin that baby will NEED as a man in order to have comfortable and pleasurable sex. This "redundant foreskin" thing scares me - and this medical practice sounds like it is NOT foreskin-friendly, or they would not be circing BOYS who are not happy with their intact status. Grown men can make an informed decision, BOYS cannot. Circing boys is about as ethical as giving 11-year old girls boob jobs.

I think it's great that you postponed the surgery. I would try to find a foreskin-friendly urologist to give you a second opinion. Maybe Dr. Paul Fleiss would be a good resource, too - you could call him for a free phone consult. I can find his number for you if you'd like.


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

I'm going to go against most of you here. If the hole is getting bigger, I see it as an injury that must be repaired.
It's not a gaping oozing hole that is exposing layers of skin/tissue and becoming an infection risk. It probably started out as a hole similar to an ear piercing, maybe slightly bigger and has stretched out to now be 5 or 6 millimeters. Baby skin is really stretchy, it happens. There is no way to know now what he will look like as a teenager/adult.

Why not let him choose? If this was on his face, hands, etc. where someone would see it everyday & *potentially* comment on it, that's one thing. But on his penis? Let him decide.


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

You should very carefully and painstakingly ask the dr what is meant by redundant foreskin. Just b/c it's ugly doesn't mean it's redundant. And what it looks like now is NOTHING like what it will look like when he's grown. Trying to make it look right now isn't a good plan, it's going to look different when he's grown no matter what you do to it now.

When the dr says 'redundant' it sounds like he means that there is more there than is necessary for his long-term health. But from the dr's perspective, the entire foreskin is redundant. He doesn't need any of it, so he's saying that the loose circ is not acceptable.

Get the hole fixed, leave the foreskin intact as much as you can.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*
BTW, wtf is the dr doing showing his nurse your kid's penis? Why would he even ask you that? What business is it of hers? Is she in medical school and currently studying Male Genitalia and the Things We Amputate From Them?

This didn't strike me as even remotely odd. many specialist, including mine often ask for the nurses opinion. The nurses are educated and intelligent especially ifthey see the same sort of thing alot. Don't underestimate the office nurse. Especially ifthe Dr. thinks highly enough to ask her opinion.

thundersweet - I can't really wrap my head around what is going on. The best i can figure out is that he still has a substantial amount of foreskin (it is not redunadt, redundant means there is an extra one. my friends kids had a redunadant finger at birth, they decided to remove it. I can understand that







) that is no longer attached properly, and is therefore not functioning properly. There is also a hole left in it from the procedure. For starters your insurance company should not be paying for it. the Dr. who vbotched it in the first place should not only pay for corective surgery but also compensate your son for the pain this willc ause him.

in the end it is up to you and dh to decide what to do. leave it till later or do it now or not do it at all. whatever. i definitely vote for waiting until it is full grown. They botched it once. Really want to risk it again? He will no doubt want it fixed but you never know what will happen in the next 10-20 years that wil make getting it fixed easier and more exact. And of course it is easier to fix on a full sized one.

If yuo do decide to have it fixed I would consult with a couple of different Dr.s and find the best plastic surgeon money can buy (even if you have to pay it out of pocket. this is the least you can do for your son.). You do not want to mess this up. You can only have it "fixed" so many times. This isn't something that will grow back. once it is gone it is gone. i would have the surgeon mark on his skin where he is going ot make teh cut. So everyone can se exactly where it is. perhaps even have one PS mark it and then get a second opinion on where he has decided to cut.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I also wanted to add he might grow into it just fine. I would see if there is some way to close the hole and leave the rest for a later time.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

As someone who knows what its like to deal with family members who pretty much go against everything i want i would like to say a few things. In the end it has NOTHING to do with what they want or even what u want this is not your penis or theirs. Look deep into ur heart and think long and hard about what is more important: pleasing your family or protecting your son. It is so hard to make regular parenting decisions let alone something like this.

Research what it is exactly the forskin does. How it works.

Think what may happen what if this surgery goes wrong to? I would like to think that the dr would be extra carefull but as we all know things just happen. He could very well grow up to have major problems from the re-circ. (it would be a re-circ because more forskin would be removed) Were if u leave it alone if there r any problems it could be easily fixed to suit what you SON wants.

As far as the hole goes I of course dont know what it lookes like but I would think that it could be repaired WITHOUT sacrificing any more of the forskin ur son is lucky to still have.

Also since it is not causing a medical problem and is cosmetic from ur description it should prolly wait until ur ds is a bit older.

Since it will be years before he even really notices it no hurry. Unless it starts to cause medical issues.

Before u mentioned that it looks like a mushroom for the newer looser circs this is exactly what it looks like I know saw one on thanksgiving







the only possible good thing about that is when he is grown it will be a bit easier for him to restore what is left of his forskin. Just remember every centimeter of forskin removed takes away a little bit of pleasure. Your son deserves to keep what is left.

I got so many lectures about leaving ds intact that I know what the pressure can be like. It totally sucks to feel so alone. Just know that u r not alone and we r here for u.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
This didn't strike me as even remotely odd. many specialist, including mine often ask for the nurses opinion. The nurses are educated and intelligent especially ifthey see the same sort of thing alot. Don't underestimate the office nurse. Especially ifthe Dr. thinks highly enough to ask her opinion.

Don't make assumptions about how I feel about nurses. My dad was a hospital administrator and I feel like he did....a medical facility is only as good as it's nursing staff, meaning that nurses can make or break your health during a hospital stay and you can't pay a good nurse too much money. They are completely invaluable. I can see how you might assume that I was dogging his nurse though, but I wasn't. I was dogging *him*. At this point I've pretty much had it with drs. and their penis butchering ways, and this guy sounds no different to me. So I suppose I was being bitter and harsh when really I should just chill.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

I would wait as well.

The skin on your DS's penis might stop stretching, and the hole will stay the size it is. Or the hole might get bigger. At this point, you really don't know.

But- if you REALLY feel down the road, that it is in your son's best interest to have it taken care of, because his foreskin is causing medical problems (or severe emotional problems) from being damaged by the original circ, then you can do it.

Waiting might cost you more money.

But once it is done, it is done, and no amount of money will EVER get it back.

You've had one "botch again" and on such a tiny work area, I'd be terrified of further damage happening, in the attempts to correct the issue.

Ask yourself-
Is it currently causing a medical problem?
Is it currently causing your *DS* emotional distress?

If the answer is no, then you need to really examine your reasons for having it done RIGHT now.


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## paminmi (Jan 31, 2005)

Does anyone have the comparision pictures of loose circumcisions as toddlers and then how they changed as the toddler grew into a boy? Basically showing how they "grew" into their foreskin remnants.

I thought I had it saved but I can't find it now. Seeing them may help the OP realize how the penis can change as the boy grows.

Jen, Frank, Ann, somebody?


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Oh please find those and post the link. I would so appreciate it!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paminmi*
Does anyone have the comparision pictures of loose circumcisions as toddlers and then how they changed as the toddler grew into a boy? Basically showing how they "grew" into their foreskin remnants.

I thought I had it saved but I can't find it now. Seeing them may help the OP realize how the penis can change as the boy grows.

Jen, Frank, Ann, somebody?


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

http://www.rogerknapp.com/medical/circ_incomplete.htm

Edited to add that I'm posting this because it shows how boys can "grow into" a looser circumcision, however, I disagree with his advice about pulling the skin back. That's not always a good idea, particularly if adhesions are an issue.

Jen


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Thank you for posting that! However, seeing those makes me think the original doctor did not intend to do a loose cir. My son has much more loose skin hanging around the bottom. The hole makes it look like he has a lump in the side. It hangs down farther on one side since the hole is there.

I am holding off until I research this further.


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## Shaunam (Oct 8, 2004)

I know a man who has a cosmetic "defect" due to a botched circ. It wasn't a circ, really. His mom chose not to have him circ'ed but the doc cut a slit in his foreskin so it would be easier to pull back and clean (rolls eyes). Has anybody heard of this? It was a new one on me.









Anyways, his foreskin is "funny-looking" now. I didn't see it, but he and his wife both agreed that it was messed up. Basically it's missing a big chunk on one side.

His mom could have decided to have him circ'ed so he wouldn't have that chunk missing, but she left it alone.

He is extremely glad that she let it be. He thinks it looks weird. His wife thinks it looks weird. But most importantly, he has a functioning foreskin. He wouldn't change it for the world. (and neither would his wife-she raves about his "equipment"







)

His missing chunk started out small and grew as he got older, but I think that's pretty normal because the skin grows and stretches.

My point is, if it's cosmetic, just leave it alone. He may be thanking you later. Or he may decide to get it fixed. But at least he won't have to go through another painful experience when he's too young to know what's going on and too young to have a say in it.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Thundersweet, I'm going to upset the apple cart here.

You have a very documentable and verifiable medical malpractice case here and you're very fortunate in that the foremost circumcision attorney in the nation is only about 12 miles from your home. That's David Llewellyn. His office is in downtown Atlanta in the Equitable Building about 2 blocks from Five Points on Peachtree Street. You need to stop everything and contact him. You have the best case we have ever had here and you don't need to worry about an insurance company giving you the run around. I suspect that by the time David gets through with them, they will be practically begging you to take their money.

David will want you to take your son to a doctor who will testify for you in court for an evaluation, for recommendations and for evidence. He will need your medical records for your son. You need to call David today because there is a statute of limitations and your case has to be filed within the limitations or you lose all chance of recompense. Just tell him I told you to call him and he will get right to you and help you through this.

David's phone number is 404-524-5626. That's even a local call for you! Please let me know how it goes.

Frank


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Thundersweet, I'm going to upset the apple cart here.

You have a very documentable and verifiable medical malpractice case here and you're very fortunate in that the foremost circumcision attorney in the nation is only about 12 miles from your home. That's David Llewellyn. His office is in downtown Atlanta in the Equitable Building about 2 blocks from Five Points on Peachtree Street. You need to stop everything and contact him. You have the best case we have ever had here and you don't need to worry about an insurance company giving you the run around. I suspect that by the time David gets through with them, they will be practically begging you to take their money.

David will want you to take your son to a doctor who will testify for you in court for an evaluation, for recommendations and for evidence. He will need your medical records for your son. You need to call David today because there is a statute of limitations and your case has to be filed within the limitations or you lose all chance of recompense. Just tell him I told you to call him and he will get right to you and help you through this.

David's phone number is 404-524-5626. That's even a local call for you! Please let me know how it goes.

Frank


YES, that!


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
Thundersweet, I'm going to upset the apple cart here.

You have a very documentable and verifiable medical malpractice case here and you're very fortunate in that the foremost circumcision attorney in the nation is only about 12 miles from your home. That's David Llewellyn. His office is in downtown Atlanta in the Equitable Building about 2 blocks from Five Points on Peachtree Street. You need to stop everything and contact him. You have the best case we have ever had here and you don't need to worry about an insurance company giving you the run around. I suspect that by the time David gets through with them, they will be practically begging you to take their money.

David will want you to take your son to a doctor who will testify for you in court for an evaluation, for recommendations and for evidence. He will need your medical records for your son. You need to call David today because there is a statute of limitations and your case has to be filed within the limitations or you lose all chance of recompense. Just tell him I told you to call him and he will get right to you and help you through this.

David's phone number is 404-524-5626. That's even a local call for you! Please let me know how it goes.

Frank


Really?? I just never considered it. Is this something that would be settled? A long drawn out court process?


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

I think that they would rush to settle with you. He has a documentable injury, not a so-called "normal" complication of circumcision.

A phone call & initial consult w/ the attorney would be helpful & informative w/o making a commitment.


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## ShelleyMom2in2 (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
Really?? I just never considered it. Is this something that would be settled? A long drawn out court process?

from what I have read about your son they would settle in about 5 seconds flat. It sounds like you have put off the surgery until you learn more. GOOD FOR YOU!!! Your son will thank you. Now go sue the a$$hole who hurt your baby and set your kiddo up with a nice fat college fund









YAY FRANK!!!!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
Really?? I just never considered it.

Yes! Absolutely really! This is one of the most clear cut cases of malpractice I've seen. Your son deserves to be compensated for his suffering and you need to be compensated for your agony over all of this.

Quote:

Is this something that would be settled? A long drawn out court process?
There is a very high probability that the malpractice insurer is going to want to settle this one. The evidence is very clear. The insurance company will know about 97% certain that the jury is going to find for you and it's just a guess how much they will award you in damages. They know it could be a small amount like $20,000.00 or it could be far into the hundreds of thousands of dollars or even more. By settling the case before it goes to court, they avoid the possibility that it could be millions of dollars.* It also avoids adverse publicity for their client, the doctor. More than 90% of cases are settled out of court. Those that are not are usually ones where the guilt or injury is not clear cut or where the plaintiff is obstinate or wants to get rich over a small case.

Frank

*Actually, the medical and insurance professions, in their greed, has subverted the legal system and the courts in Georgia by getting tort reform legislation passed by our inept legislature. This means that you can get actual damages that include repair surgery and such but are limited to $350,000.00 in consequential damages.


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

Frank, what about the surgery and removal of the foreskin? How to repair the hole?
What if the foreskin is lopsided and 'redundant' as she describes?


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Ok, I placed the call. He is out of the office today but I will update after we speak. I feel very nervous about this. Why? I guess because we are getting ready to call a lawyer about a malpractice suit for my mom. She went in for gall bladder surgery and ended up just about killing her. They tore a hole in her bowel and only repaired 1 side. Leaving the other side leaking stool into her cut for 6 days before they took her back to surgery to figure out what was going on. She was no more than 24 hours from death. On a ventilator for 3 days, kidney failure. I almost feel this circumcision case is frivolous in comparison. But it's not. I just don't want to appear sue happy, if you know what I mean. Even though its actually my mom sueing in her case. She still lives in our house.


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

I see what you mean, that you are feeling sensitive about it. I think your family has had a spate of bad luck at the hands of the medical community. It's not that you're sue happy, but you've been hit twice in significant ways.








Sandy. You need it.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Oh sweetie!!

I couldn't pass by this thread without responding. I am going to ask this question of you coming from a different angle.

Would you care, truly care, if your husband had a hole in his foreskin? Would any woman on this thread care?

This is not would your husband care, it would be normal and natural to him.

But would you care? He is your husband, and you love him. All of him.

The woman who marries your wonderful PERFECT just as he is amazing son, will love him. And she won't care. She will be HAPPY that he has some foreskin.

I wouldn't care. Heck, I would love it if my husband had ANY foreskin at all!!

I know you are hurting mama. I can't imagine. Cutting off more won't heal that hurt, but leaving what he has left (which sounds like a lot) could. Any penis looks hmmm...slightly odd? LOL. There is nothing wrong with something different. It is only different, not broken.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LeosMama*
Frank, what about the surgery and removal of the foreskin? How to repair the hole?
What if the foreskin is lopsided and 'redundant' as she describes?


That will all come later if it's necessary. I can't give a diagnosis or prognosis not having seen the actual defect. Just from what I have read though, it appears the hole goes through both the inner and outer foreskin and would cause a problem with retraction because there would be a tethering effect. If this is the case, to just close the hole, there would be a small incision just below the hole and the inner and outer foreskin would be separated making two holes in effect. Then each hole would be sutured shut separately and the first incision would be sutured. If I have assessed the situation correctly, this would be very minor surgery and I suspect would not require an overnight stay in the hospital. It might possibly even be done in the doctor's office. Probably in just a few years, all three incisions and scars would be invisible or nearly so if performed in a workman like manner and the frmnant foreskin would function as correctly as possible for a child who has been circumcised. That does not mean it would have the same functionality as an intact foreskin but would be far better that a penis that has been tightly cut.

I suspect any lopsidedness is a result of the hole and once the hole is repaired, any lopsidedness will disappear.

"Redundant" in medical terminology means excessive or superflurous tissue. Except in very rare cases of a anomaly called mega prepuce, there is no such thing as redundant foreskin, especially in a circumcised child. In other industries, redundant is used to describe back-up systems and this can cause confusion. For example, automobiles have a single ignition system with one sparkplug per cylinder. But, if you are in an airplane, an ignition system or a fouled sparkplug during a trip could have deadly consequences, therefore, airplanes typically have two separate and independent ignition systems and two spark plugs per cylinder for safety's sake. That is referred to as a redundant system. For a child to have redundant foreskin using that definition would mean that he had two foreskins.

Frank


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*
THundersweet, there is no such thing as redundant foreskin (the term is pretty offensive also).

My thoughts exactly. As soon as I'd heard the nurse say "redundant" foreskine, I'd've said, "You know, we're out of here." Because that statement tells you exactly what the nurse thinks of your son's foreskin, that it is of no consquence and completely worthless.









I know you've been through a lot with this entire ordeal. I realize the operation is scheduled for today, but please keep in mind that you can still walk away from it up until the time the doctor makes the incision. From your post it sounds like you're having this surgery done now because insurance is paying for it. Please don't make this decision based solely on this on factor.

I honestly think you should look into plastic surgeons, other urologists, and find the one who will do the best for your son, not just one who's covered by insurance. You may have to pay out of pocket, but ultimately, it may be the better choice.

ETA: I just read that you've contacted the lawyer in Atlanta. Good for you!! Best wishes for your son.
~Nay


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

ITA that you should sue. Think of it this way, you could be keeping some other woman's son from being harmed the same way yours was. Also, please find an intact friendly urologist (maybe Frank will know how to do this) and see if the hole can be repaired without the loss of the additional foreskin. YOU are the one who is going to have to answer to your son about this decision in the future...so do what is best for him medically (and ignore the "cosmetic" reasons - how shallow are they?)


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Thank you all for your responses. I greatly appreciate it even though some of them were harsh.









I have been looking at his penis at every diaper change today thinking about what to do. One thing I do remember that happened a week or so ago. Some of you said to leave it alone it was causing no harm. For the most part it doesn't but we did have an episode last week when he was crying and fussing and pulling down on his crotch. He has done this several times before but not to this extent. I just figured he didnt like the diaper I had on him. (cloth) I didnt think to check his diaper because I had just changed him. By this time he was laying on the floor so I opened his diaper and realized his foreskin was caught in the crease of his diaper and pulling down. As soon as I loosened it he instantly stopped crying. How often has that been the cause of his pulling down on the diaper between his legs? I don't know! The bottom of the "mushroom" appearance as I so lovingly called it before hangs down like a turkey neck. That is the best way to describe it I guess.

Frank, thanks so much for your help! The hole is right through the foreskin. If I am standing in front of him changing his diaper, I can take both hands and grab each side with two fingers and pull it all the way up and well over the head of the penis. You will then see a gaping hole right through his right side. When I let go, the skin around the top of the hole hangs way down past the rest of the droopy skin. I know its hard to picture. The urologist said it will get bigger and then could actually get tangled or hung up on the head of the penis. Not sure if that would happen or not but looking at it I can see where that would happen as the hole gets larger. If that makes sense at all.


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## dynamohumm6 (Feb 22, 2005)

Sandy, I would be willing to bet that the lawyer would *probably* have contacts to hook you up with a doctor that would be able to fix the hole without re-circ'ing him.
Good luck to you.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

You know now if he is fussing and pulling on his diaper now to check it! My daughters get chapped sometimes and it is the same type of thing that they do. Luckily it is an easy fix!


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
he urologist said it will get bigger and then could actually get tangled or hung up on the head of the penis.

The hole will probably get larger, because he's a growing kid and everything on his body is growing, including his penis. And, if you keep pulling/stretching it, that may also contribute to the hole getting larger. IMO, until you make a decision about legal action/reconstructive surgery, leaving it alone is probably the best course of action.

I just seem to be getting the impression that this doctor is making stuff up to frighten/pressure you into consenting for further cosmetic surgery for your son's penis, perhaps even to cover up the mistake that was made origionally to cover his own butt.

The concept of him getting "tangled up" in his foreskin is completely beyond me...

Jen


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

This is my first post-yay!
Anyway, I just had to comment. What you are describing your son's penis looking like seems to me to be very much what my own son's non-circumcised penis looks like. He has a ton of extra skin that kind of droops and that is just the way it is. I would never change it for anything.
Also, just like many others said, if you are concerned about the hole, the best course of action would be to stitch it up. There is no reason to cut more of his foreskin off. Again, the droopiness may be more normal than you think and will probably look more normal as he-and his penis-grows.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

This is an awfully long thread so excuse me if this has already been mentioned
but I would suggest that you contact Doctors Opposing Circumcision through their website.

They are the most helpful people you'll ever come across. They have at their fingertips all the friendly to penis docs in the U.S. Don't be shy to send them an email, they are always ready to help with medical concerns.
Baybee


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunflower_mommy*
IMO, until you make a decision about legal action/reconstructive surgery, leaving it alone is probably the best course of action.

I agree. Regardless of whether a legal case procedes, evidence needs to be collected that would be destroyed by the surgery and a doctor who David knows will testify without torpedoing the case has to evaluate the child.

Quote:

I just seem to be getting the impression that this doctor is making stuff up to frighten/pressure you into consenting for further cosmetic surgery for your son's penis, perhaps even to cover up the mistake that was made origionally to cover his own butt.
That is also a possibility. Imagine going to court and saying "My son had a hole in his penis because the doctor botched it but it's gone now. They fixed it and you can hardly tell." or just saying "My son has this huge gaping hole in his penis because of the ineptitude of the doctor." Obviously a jury hearing the first is going to say "OK, what the heck is the deal?" while hearing the second will be saying "OMG!!!!"

Frank


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *little_monkeys*
This is my first post-yay!
Anyway, I just had to comment. What you are describing your son's penis looking like seems to me to be very much what my own son's non-circumcised penis looks like. He has a ton of extra skin that kind of droops and that is just the way it is. I would never change it for anything.
Also, just like many others said, if you are concerned about the hole, the best course of action would be to stitch it up. There is no reason to cut more of his foreskin off. Again, the droopiness may be more normal than you think and will probably look more normal as he-and his penis-grows.

I was just thinking this last night....thundersweet, do you know what a normal intact baby penis looks like? (there is a wide variation in normal). it's possible your son still has enough foreskin that it looks like an intact penis (except for the hole in it).

my son's foreskin extends well past his glans.

also, what exactly caused the hole? you mentioned nitrate strips? did the circing doctor use silver nitrate on your son? :shock that's a cauterizing agent and burns like hell (my midwife put silver nitrate on me where the stitches on my vaginal tear had pulled open). i didn't know they used silver nitrate in circs.


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

Thundersweet -







what a drag. Tell us what happened... did your babe have the surgery? Did it go ok? Did they just fix the hole? waiting on tenderhooks...


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabeca*
Thundersweet -







what a drag. Tell us what happened... did your babe have the surgery? Did it go ok? Did they just fix the hole? waiting on tenderhooks...

The baby has not had the surgery yet. As I understand it, he was scheduled for surgery next week but was rescheduled for January. Depending on what happens with David Llewellyn and what evidence needs to be gathered, the surgery may be delayed again until everything is taken care of. At this point, there is no urgent medical need for the surgery. It seems the rush was for insurance coverage but with David involved, I doubt there is any worry about insurance coverage. I suspect the doctor's malpractice provider will be begging to cover any surgery needed.

Frank


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

HI! Yes, I did reschedule the surgery, mainly just to keep him in the book until I decided what to do. Of course, now I have called the lawyer so we will see what happens from here.


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## coco4cloth (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
HI! Yes, I did reschedule the surgery, mainly just to keep him in the book until I decided what to do. Of course, now I have called the lawyer so we will see what happens from here.

Calling the lawyer is the right thing to do. Your boy deserves it! I agree with what everyone else has said about leaving it alone for now.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
you mentioned nitrate strips? did the circing doctor use silver nitrate on your son? :shock that's a cauterizing agent and burns like hell (my midwife put silver nitrate on me where the stitches on my vaginal tear had pulled open). i didn't know they used silver nitrate in circs.









Yep, they do sometimes use silver nitrate sticks during circs, if they have an area that continues to bleed. It was one of the standard supplies in the circ rooms at the hospital where I worked, although I only saw them used a couple of times...if I remember correctly, mostly around the frenular-area? It literally stops bleeding by causing a chemical burn.

A doctor once used them on my cervix after punch biopsies-no anesthetic.









Youch.

Jen


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## thundersweet (Feb 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
I was just thinking this last night....thundersweet, do you know what a normal intact baby penis looks like? (there is a wide variation in normal). it's possible your son still has enough foreskin that it looks like an intact penis (except for the hole in it).

my son's foreskin extends well past his glans.

also, what exactly caused the hole? you mentioned nitrate strips? did the circing doctor use silver nitrate on your son? :shock that's a cauterizing agent and burns like hell (my midwife put silver nitrate on me where the stitches on my vaginal tear had pulled open). i didn't know they used silver nitrate in circs.









I have never seen one IRL. I have seen pictures though. My sons is not smooth to the end. Its all bunched up and big at the tip. Like lots of fat and the bottom hangs at least 1/2 inch down from the penis. Like I described earlier, a turkey neck almost.

They did use silver nitrate. Is that not standard? The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now." I am assuming she used them because of this? I cringed when she said that.

I am so sorry I did this to my son.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

Might I suggest that you stick the anti-circ icon in your siggy? The more intactivism we get 'out there', the more boys we will save from going through this. Some moms here have something like 'regretting our decision'


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## acrathbun (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

They did use silver nitrate. Is that not standard? The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now." I am assuming she used them because of this? I cringed when she said that.
When all done wrt the lawsuit, etc., and *before* you do any further surgical procedures, please have your son tested for bleeding disorders. Bleeding after an unconsented circ was my son's first sign of a bleeding disorder (was not diagnosed until years later.) Ask to have him tested for von Willebrand's disease and mild hemophilia.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

The foreskin that you are describing sounds pretty normal to me...but then I don't have a boy! I DO however have a lot of friends with boys who are naked a lot (LOL) and there are a couple of them that have foreskins that hang down at least a half inch from the tip of the penis. There is also one boy who's foreskin hangs down about an inch or so. There is just a lot of extra room to grow. For someone who hasn't seen what an uncirced' penis looks like, it might look like there is something wrong. But there isn't!! It is all perfectly normal. They come in all differert shapes and sizes. Even mushroom shaped at the end.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now." I am assuming she used them because of this? I cringed when she said that.

























I agree with everyone...sue the dog crap out of this dr (is 'dog crap' one word or 2?). Then she'll be broke before she rots in the ever-lasting fires of hell for making money off of the blood of children. You're so lucky that your son lived through that surgery, thank god. Then you'd suing for something much worse than a botched circumcision. What she said sounds _really_ scary to me as it doesn't take a lot of blood loss in a newborn to be *very bad*.

Don't be too hard on yourself. It's mostly the medical community's fault. Don't turn the anger on yourself. Yes, you should have researched more but when tons of drs say it's ok, you don't have a fair shot at knowing what's right. I mean, if it was so bad they wouldn't do it, right (oh yeah they would)? *When you know better, you do better*. But don't have anything else done until you get a second and even third opinion. Right now you're so mad at yourself that you can't see past that, but once you're past that you'll realize how mad you are at that dr and the medical community as a whole for perpetuating such a horrendous practice for money, _then_ that dr won't know what hit her.

I haven't seen a pic of really loose circumcision or one in an infant/toddler, but maybe that skin hanging down is typical of that? When you say "skin hanging down" I think you mean frm the underneath part of the penis, not from the end? Or from the end but not in a sort of "tube" like with an intact kid, but more loose skin? Maybe that part isn't as unusual as you think.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InDaPhunk*























I agree with everyone...sue the dog crap out of this dr (is 'dog crap' one word or 2?). Then she'll be broke before she rots in the ever-lasting fires of hell for making money off of the blood of children.

A case like this will have virtually no financial impact on the doctor. That's what they have malpractice insurance for. Their premiums may go up slightly for a short while and he/she may have to miss some office time while this is being negotiated but it wil not have any significant financial impact on the doctor.

The reason that every single one of these cases must be pursued is because the insurance company will eventually see the light and defund the procedure and write it into their malpractice policies that they will not cover circumcision claims against doctors who do perform circumcisions. We are already seeing evidence of this. In Canada, doctors have been warned that their professional insurance may not cover them for circumcision claims. That helped but what really drove it home is when Ryleigh McWillis died. Suddenly, the doctors saw that they could be financially ruined over a $300.00 procedure and suddenly, the circumcision rate dropped by almost 50%.

We are begining to see this. In a recently issued policy by ND Blue Cross/Blue Shield, circumcision is specifically excluded as a covered procedure and treatment of complications from excluded procedures is also excluded. This puts the onus on the parent or the malpractice provided. I suspect BC/BS just got tired of paying for stuff like this. I don't blame them! I can imagine it was costing them millions each year.

Frank


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## ShelleyMom2in2 (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
In Canada ...the circumcision rate dropped by almost 50%.

We are begining to see this. In a recently issued policy by ND Blue Cross/Blue Shield, circumcision is specifically excluded as a covered procedure and treatment of complications from excluded procedures is also excluded.

Ive never been more proud to be Canadian (living in the usa...but still







: )

YAY BC/BS!!!! I think Ill have to write them a nice email commending them on the policy in ND.







yah I know its all about money and not human rights...but when money keeps little boys intact then thats awesome!


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## channelofpeace (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
In Canada, doctors have been warned that their professional insurance may not cover them for circumcision claims. That helped but what really drove it home is when Ryleigh McWillis died. Suddenly, the doctors saw that they could be financially ruined over a $300.00 procedure and suddenly, the circumcision rate dropped by almost 50%.

Frank

It makes me so sad that a little boy actually had to die before they started to get it. And even then, it wasn't about losing a person, it was about money


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## greenmansions (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *milkydoula*
It makes me so sad that a little boy actually had to die before they started to get it. And even then, it wasn't about losing a person, it was about money









What blew my mind was that in an article I read about it, his mother said she would circ again if she had another son!

"Tanna McWillis herself says she and her husband would probably circumcise another male child.

"I was told a lot of people opposed to circumcision would grandstand about my son's death, but we would do it again.

"If I had been better informed on how to look after my baby, it would never have happened."

<http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/>


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
A case like this will have virtually no financial impact on the doctor. That's what they have malpractice insurance for. Their premiums may go up slightly for a short while and he/she may have to miss some office time while this is being negotiated but it wil not have any significant financial impact on the doctor.

Eh, Frank, I was speaking in hyperbole







.


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## channelofpeace (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenmansions*
What blew my mind was that in an article I read about it, his mother said she would circ again if she had another son!

"Tanna McWillis herself says she and her husband would probably circumcise another male child.

"I was told a lot of people opposed to circumcision would grandstand about my son's death, but we would do it again.

"If I had been better informed on how to look after my baby, it would never have happened."

<http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince02-13-04/>

























Denial anyone?


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

I know it's OT, sorry, but I'm floored by this woman. HER BABY DIED because they wanted to cut off a sensitive piece of anatomy "Just for family history". This probably translates to "I had a brother who used to get infections/had phimosis and had to be circed as an toddler". We've all heard this one before. And she blames the dr's and herself for not knowing how to deal with the bleeding. If she hadn't had an unnecessary procedure performed, he would be alive today. GGGGRRRRR


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

What choice does she have? She could say "Boy, am I an idiot! I insisted my son be circ'ed, and now he's dead. It's all my fault".

Not everyone is strong enough to make that sort of admission - even to themselves. I only hope that if she has another son, she has the strength to do the right thing.


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

You're right, nd, but I have heard many parents say "I'm speaking out so this doesn't happen to another child."

I agree and can only hope with you about her next son. Or rather, that her next child will not be male, as I assume from her cultural context that she doesn't think that a famil history of gynecological problems should encourage labia removal for new female members of that family.


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## ShelleyMom2in2 (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*
What choice does she have? She could say "Boy, am I an idiot! I insisted my son be circ'ed, and now he's dead. It's all my fault".

Not everyone is strong enough to make that sort of admission - even to themselves. I only hope that if she has another son, she has the strength to do the right thing.

You know I think she will be VERY hard pressed to find a doctor willing to circ future children. I mean every DR in her city will know who she is and what happened to her first son.

I did say 'Boy I am an idiot I insisted my son be circ'ed It's all my fault' thankfully my son has not had any major problems. My second child, another son is intact. Maybe she will admit it to herself and she can become an advocate for leaving perfect little babies whole. One can hope

ETA: I guess I didnt insist on it but DH did and I did the 'I dont have a penis so its up to DH' copout







come to realise DH doesnt have an intact penis either....double


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Shelley, I have the utmost admiration and respect for parents who DO have the strength to admit they made a mistake. I applaud you for putting your son's well-being before your own pride.

I do find it inconceivable that a parent could lose a child to circumcision, and still be willing to do it again. But I guess that need to not be wrong can be overwhelming.


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## DarkHorseMama (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thundersweet*
They did use silver nitrate. Is that not standard? The only thing I remember was the doctor coming in and saying to us "he was bleeding alot, I'm not sure why but he is all fine now."

Freaking scary! From the write up on Ryleigh McWillis, the editor indicated:

_A baby's body contains ~350ml of blood. 10% blood loss - 35ml, about a tablespoonful - is considered dangerous._

So when a doctor comes out with the above statement, I would be ready to rumble.







:

Good luck with the attorney, and hopefully you can get a resolution from all of this







Extra hug for you and your Mom for her medical issues, too


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