# Doctor retracted at 4 month visit



## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I took my intact son for his four month checkup last Friday. I mentioned to him that when bathing, his foreskin still appears to be very tight, and if this was ok. I should add that I have never retracted or used any force on his foreskin. Up until then, the doctor's advice had been "just pull on it a little bit, not too much". When I found that I couldn't pull on it at all, this is what led to me asking the doctor about it.

The doctor then proceeded to tell me that when they circumcise, the foreskin is fully retracted, so doing it now is the same thing. I have since learned that obviously a circ removes the skin, whereas a forced retraction on an intact penis can cause adhesions to form. So my son's foreskin was fully retracted, and the doctor told me everything looked fine. I didn't really think too much about it until I noticed that it was slightly red and inflamed at the end. This led me to googling, reading all of the info about this and basically obesessively worrying that I have allowed my son to be harmed.

I'm very confused that the Pediatrician did this because he was trained in England, where circ rates are very low. You would think that he would know how to handle an intact penis.

I'm really interested in hearing from parents who have had this experience. Specifically how they cared for the penis in the months/years afterward and if there were any problems or infections following the retraction, and if the foreskin naturally separated after the forced retraction, and when.

I am thinking of switching Pediatricians and getting a referral to a urologist, just to check that everything is ok.

Thanks you so much in advance for all help and guidance.

Peter


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

No need to see a urologist because they are just as likely to hurt your ds. One time retraction isnt a problem but you should take steps to insure it never happens again, whether finding a new ped. or keeping this one and not allowing him to touch your ds's penis again.

What he did was against all the up to date intact care instructions out there. The tip of the foreskin is a sphincter and like the anus when not in use it clamps down so the size of the opening dosnt matter because it changes to allow urine to flow.

The only one to ever stretch/mess with the foreskin is the owner of the penis so lightly pulling on it is as much a







as pushing it back is because there is no need and it is potentially damaging.


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## Lauren82 (Feb 26, 2007)

My son just had a tiny little pinhole of an opening which was barely noticeable unless he was peeing. At 8 years old he still cannot fully retract and that is a normal variation. Some boys wont fully retract until puberty or later. I'm so glad you looked up information. I think your son will be just fine but I would not allow a doctor to touch his penis again.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

DS was forcibly retracted at least once that I know of... probably twice. About a year and a half ago, DS had to have open heart surgery to repair a major hole... they were going to have to cath him for the surgery, and I asked them not to retract him for the cath. They were very adamant about it, and honestly, in the grand scheme of things, these are two of the best pediatric heart surgeons in the world, and I chose not to make a big issue of the retraction because I felt that that issue paled in comparison to the heart defect that needed repair. So, DH was retracted and cleaned for the cath, and about a week after coming home, he did have some pain on urination... but other than that, he hasn't had any problems. He is currently in the separation process (without any other force applied by anyone but him)... has some ballooning, and for a while a couple months ago, he complained once or twice that his penis hurt. But that's it.

My understanding is that a one time forced retraction (while it isn't something I would ever recommend) probably isn't going to cause permanent damage. I think that you can probably just chalk this up to a lesson learned and try to relax about.


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## Lauren82 (Feb 26, 2007)

I just came across this excellent article that is applicable to your situation:

http://www.savingpenises.org/1/post/2010/07/only-clean-what-is-seen-reversing-the-epidemic-of-forcible-retraction.html

How is your son doing?


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

My son is doing fine at this point - and I must thank everyone so much for their replies, advice and guidance on this issue. There just appears to be a lot of contradictory views regarding this issue - with the medical community on one side and the anti circumcision groups (that I know includes many doctors too) on the other. This makes for a very confusing situation, where parents feel entirely lost about what to do or which medical professional to trust.

I am obviously against circumcision, as I see it as an unecessary medical procedure. I am also very concious that literature used by anti-circ groups tends to present the worst case scenario, in an effort to persuade parents who might be on the fence to 'leave it alone.' Again, I must stress that I fully support the advice to leave it alone and have followed this completely (especially now that I am more informed since the retraction happened to my son), but I don't think that it is helpful to scare parents with mostly biased, anecdotal evidence that is not necessarily backed up by any studies, especially when parents are stressed after this may have happened to their son. It adds to the stress enormously. I wish that we could have an open debate, get the real facts out there and of course prevent all of the *potential* harm to our sons caused by forced retraction, but also at the same time, understand *excactly* what the risks are after a forcible retraction. I have seen posts on this forum that purport to be guidelines from the AAP that state that a forcible retraction 'may serverly harm the penis'. While in some cases this may be entirely true, when reviewing the current AAP guidelines regarding foreskin care, I cannot find this phrase and it appears that someone at sometime has inserted this phrase directly into the AAP statement.

Again, I'm absolutely against medically unecessary circumcision and forced retraction of any kind. But there's obviously a lot of confusion over this issue, and I feel that as parents we deserve to know the truth. That's why I'm still eager to reach out to parents who have had a forcible retraction done to their son, and what actually happened in the months and years afterward, how they cared for the penis and if there were any future problems.

Many Thanks,

Peter


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

I should also add that attorneys appear to be wading into the issue and muddying the waters further. I can't help but notice the number of articles on this issue written or partially written by lawyers using it as a commercal venture. 'Contact this attorney if this happened to you.' It me reminds of the ads we see everyday with some attorney asking is if we have had ever had any complications taking this or that drug 'Call me now, there may be a significant cash award.' I want to take the ulterior motive, commercial or political agenda out of this debate and know truly what *could* happen to my son after a forcible retraction.

Peter

(Absolutely against circumcision/forcible retraction, but also wanting to know the truth)


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

What could happen ranges from nothing at all to slight redness to major problems down the road. There is just no way to know exactly which it will be and why just keeping an eye on it is the only thing to do.

I have seen most of the things I listed above talked about here at different times. One boy was hurt so badly his foreskin split and he bled and it healed with no apparent problems but until he reaches puberty there is no way to know if adhesion will be left behind. The same goes for the ones who dont show any real damage at the time no way to know until he can retract.

The reason for being adamant about retraction is because of what _can_ happen if that 1 time can be prevented then it is worth using very strong language about the dangers of retraction.

If you read articles from other countries you will see how against any retraction they are while the USA is wishy washy on it because leaving boys intact is so new here.

About Dr. when he/she goes to mess with you you have no way of knowing if he is just going to move the foreskin around or if they are going to try and see how far back it goes. So the best way to prevent possible damage is to prevent the Dr. from even touching the foreskin. No the foreskin isnt made of glass and isnt that breakable but it can be damaged and to me even a small risk isnt worth it.

I can add links to sites about retraction if you want me to from Dr's and other sources.


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## Lauren82 (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm so glad that your son is doing fine. If that happened to my son, I know I would be very upset and worried.

I agree that the correct information regarding ALL aspects of proper intact penis care needs to be out in the open. One of the biggest problems I see is the medical profession continuing to spread improper care guidelines. If your doctor tells you that his medical school taught him that the foreskin needs to be retracted at each diaper change and cleaned it does put you in an uncomfortable place to challenge his knowledge. It's important to understand that the US has been a pro circumcision country for years (thankfully this trend is declining). We are one of the very few countries remaining that is still practicing routine infant circumcision. Even the doctors that we are supposed to trust can often fail us. I had to remind my own family physician that he would not be touching my son's penis/retracting. It's not ideal that I had to tell him, but I am grateful he listened.

That worst case scenario stuff that you are seeing on anti-circumcision websites can and does happen. I've heard some terrible stories right here on this forum posted by the mothers of the poor babies that were injured. It's not a scare tactic or biased, it can happen.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lauren82*
> 
> I'm so glad that your son is doing fine. If that happened to my son, I know I would be very upset and worried.
> 
> ...


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for the insight guys. As an interesting note, my Pediatrician trained in England, and spent a great deal of time dealing with intact boys. I am intact and from England originally myself, and when I was growing up (33 now) the general advice was to tell boys to pull back the skin for urination. I specifically remember my Dad sitting me down and telling me this on more than one occasion. The confusion on this issue is more widespread than we think and not just limited to high circ countries like the US. I also read that boys have been taught to do this in France, also a low circ country. Again, I really MUST stress that I am anti-circ and against foreskin retraction. I believe that it can be harmful and is totally uneccessary. I understand that approaching this subject in a forum entitled 'the case against circumcision' perhaps isn't the best place to start an unbiased conversation, but I truly believe that the strong language used and the over emphasis on rare cases is NOT helpful to parents who have encountered a forced retraction and who are trying to figure out the best way forward for their child. That is why I am trying to connect with parents who have actually been through this issue to get hard, real facts. I'm finding it hard to find information that doesn't try and scare me (as if I was a soon-to-be-parent considering circumcision) and/or is signed by a lawyer offering legal services.

So, please, if you have been through this with your son, and are willing to give advice and guidance, please let me know. I'm keeping an eye on my son, and tonight his foreskin looks a lot less red. I'm definitely going to discuss this with my Pediatrician and possibly get a second opinion with a urologist and/or a different Pediatrician. In any case, I will not let ANYONE retract my son's foreskin, except my son, when he feels he can or is ready to.

Many Thanks

Peter


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I think I understand what you are saying now and I can tell you my personal experiences with my ds. At his 4 month check I wasnt very good at expressing myself especially about genitals so I didnt say anything before the Dr. started the under the diaper check but I was watching him closely just in case since I knew to watch for him trying to retract. He did indeed retract my ds to the point that I saw the tip of ds's glans at which point I put my hand over his and said "please dont do that" and he gave me a look but stopped. Ds had no redness at all after it or any changes that I saw. The second time I told the ped., a different one, before he looked under the diaper that I didnt want him to retract (have since learned using that word is a problem since Dr.'s hear it and think full retraction and not moving the foreskin) and he proceeded to again expose the tip of my ds's glans. Again there was no redness and ds has not had problems since then from the retractions. Both where very minor though and no force was used.

So while he was retracted it wasnt a full on forced retraction and he had no issues from it.

I hope that is more along the lines of what you are looking for







if not then I apologize.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for that. I think sharing experiences is such a wonderful way to educate ourselves about this issue. My son was fully retracted, as far as I could tell his glans was pretty much entirely revealed. To begin with I saw some redness on the tip of the foreskin the next day, like small red lines (the retraction was done last Friday). The redness has mostly gone now, and he has never appeared to be in any pain or discomfort in the days afterward. I've heard from others who have been through this that one isolated retraction is not usually as damaging as repeated forced/premature retractions. So, I'm hopeful that everything will be fine, and if there is any damage at all, it should be relatively minor and will be able to heal. Of course, the only way forward is to keep an eye on it (as we would be anyway), not to retract, and if there appears to be any infection, redness or discomfort, seek advice at that time.

I encourage other parents to share in this thread about forced retraction experiences, so that we can spread the knowledge about how to care for the penis after this happens. It would be interesting to hear from parents of older children who may have had this done in infancy, and what happened (if anything) in the years afterward. Developing our knowledge based on actual experience is of enormous benefit.

Many Thanks for all of the guidance,

Peter


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## Weevil (Jan 30, 2009)

My son is 5 weeks old and had his first appointment with the pediatrician this morning (he had been seen by the midwife up until now). He is intact, but my husband is not and we are both pretty clueless about intact penises. We know not to retract and have just been keeping him clean by gently wiping with a wet cloth during diaper changes and baths. During his appointment the pediatrician started pulling back his foreskin. I didn't expect it because she had told us she was very supportive of keeping boys intact, so I assumed she would just not touch it at all (I was still watching carefully, just in case). When she started I said "woah woah, you're not retracting him are you?" and she said no, that she would never retract, she has two intact sons and would never do that. But the foreskin was pulled back and the tip of the glans was visible underneath.

How big of a deal is this? Is this normal/ok? Would this harm him in any way? Should I ask her not to touch his penis at all on future visits?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

That is retracting no it is not OK and you either need to tell her not to touch his penis at all during exams or not allow under diaper exams at all. It is POTENTIALLY harmful but odds are your ds will be fine. There is nothing under there that she needs to see honest.


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## Weevil (Jan 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X*
> 
> That is retracting no it is not OK and you either need to tell her not to touch his penis at all during exams or not allow under diaper exams at all. It is POTENTIALLY harmful but odds are your ds will be fine. There is nothing under there that she needs to see honest.


Thank you. This confirms what my gut was telling me. I've felt awful all day that I didn't speak up beforehand, but I'm not sure it would have helped since she doesn't think what she did was "retracting". I'll have to make it clear in the future that she is not to touch his penis at all.


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PeterJ*
> 
> I am obviously against circumcision, as I see it as an unecessary medical procedure. I am also very concious that literature used by anti-circ groups tends to present the worst case scenario, in an effort to persuade parents who might be on the fence to 'leave it alone.' Again, I must stress that I fully support the advice to leave it alone and have followed this completely (especially now that I am more informed since the retraction happened to my son), but I don't think that it is helpful to scare parents with mostly biased, anecdotal evidence that is not necessarily backed up by any studies, especially when parents are stressed after this may have happened to their son. It adds to the stress enormously. I wish that we could have an open debate, get the real facts out there and of course prevent all of the *potential* harm to our sons caused by forced retraction, but also at the same time, understand *excactly* what the risks are after a forcible retraction. *I have seen posts on this forum that purport to be guidelines from the AAP that state that a forcible retraction 'may serverly harm the penis'. While in some cases this may be entirely true, when reviewing the current AAP guidelines regarding foreskin care, I cannot find this phrase and it appears that someone at sometime has inserted this phrase directly into the AAP statement.*


I just wanted to say that I have a copy of the AAP guidelines on intact care saved to my hard disk. This is not a copy of a copy that was posted on an anti-circ site, but one that was posted by the AAP themselves. It has since become unavailable online; I think they want money to be able to access it.

Anyway, this is a quote which I took directly from that document:

"Most boys will be able to retract their foreskins by the time they are 5 years old, yet others will not be able to until the teenage years. As a boy becomes more aware of his body, he will most likely discover how to retract his own foreskin. *But foreskin retraction should never be forced. Until separation occurs, do not try to pull the foreskin back - especially an infant's. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready may severely harm the penis and cause pain, bleeding and tears in the skin.*" (I hope posting this excerpt doesn't violate any copyright restrictions.)

Anyway, this is not just hearsay or something from the intactivist community. This is really what the AAP says in its guidelines on care for intact boys. It doesn't mean that every forced retraction will cause severe harm, but it means that it's a possibility (probably especially if the tissues are still very tightly adhered together, a situation which is extremely variable from one boy to another).

If anybody would like a copy of the full document, I can email it as an attachment if you send me a private message.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I don't think it is the medical community vs. the anti-circ community. Individual doctors overall simply do not seem very interested in normal penises. So there is just a severe lack of staying informed there and using information that comes from vague and personal opinions, anecdotes, or is outdated. If the advice is European and 30 years old it simply is outdated. Being from England doesn't itself lend authority to this, even though I see how there is a natural inclination to assume so. ...FWIW nothing wrong with retracting to urinate if you are retractable and it is obvious you shouldn't if not retractable. That advice is perfectly fine for retractable adults but the outdated part is that it is normal to retract from the beginning. That is misinformation that is widespread, not just in the U.S. So there is only one basic piece of information that is affecting others: Should retraction be caused to happen or allowed to happen. The advice may be given in a country with 100% intact men and still everyone could could have gotten this detail wrong for decades without seeing clear evidence to the contrary because cause and effect can be hard to put together especially when it comes to something so private. (It's not the kind of evidence that has historically often been collected and analyzed YK) We have seen so many health issues in which assumptions about cause and effect are incorrect for years, decades, and more. Penises are the kind of thing that most people really don't want to ask a lot of questions about and that was even more true in the past--it's a bit taboo and that relationship of passing advice from one generation of men to the next is also treated as sacred and unquestionable.

I think the main problems are that older doctors think they already know and don't want to know more, and pro-circ docs don't want to know more, and then sometimes people (even docs!) just misunderstand something that they think they do understand so they think they have more knowledge but they have misinterpreted it--these ones also think they have nothing to learn. And among the many things docs are trained to do is to sound like they are quite sure of information that they are not actually 100% knowledgeable about because as decision makers that posture inspires confidence and is the role they need to play for their patients and staff. Your European doctor was all the more confident that he has no need to learn more since he had so much experience with the intact and represents an intact-knowledgeable nation. Despite his confidence he really doesn't know anything about the risks of forced retraction, while his confidence keeps him from finding out.

What it comes down to is that most docs are not motivated to learn more than they already think they know. Lack of motivation means they are not actively seeking or acquiring new information and remain comfortable with limited knowledge. Anti-circ parents are very motivated, enough to actually bother looking closely at the AAP info, for instance. The docs aren't motivated to look at that closely and thoughtfully. They are busy with many far more pressing subjects. Yet, whatever limited amount they do know, they tend to act authoritative about it no matter what because it is their job/vocation/habit to act that way. That's not the position of the medical community as a whole you are encountering, but good ol' human weakness and ignorance in persons in whom it seems surprising and contradicts other things you know about them. And the combination of authority and ignorance is exactly the reason that some kind of health questions should not be asked of doctors, because you can get completely wrong answers from a person that seems so completely believable. Sigh.

Some areas of knowledge are really weak among doctors. This is not the only one. In such areas their plain old personal opinions become the thing they are actually telling you, not the most sound advice based on the research-based collective opinion of the "medical community." If only they didn't still sound like experts when they switched to a personal opinion in an area in which they are not keeping with the profession at all.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks so much for the ongoing replies. I really appreciate the effort and input on this issue. With regard to the 'severely harm the penis' statement, I have seen this statement both included and deleted from the AAP pdf leaflet available online, so I'm assuming that either it has been inserted by the AAP more recently, or deleted.

There is an awful lot of talk about the 'potential' harm that forced retraction can cause, but comparatively little or zero medical dialog concerning the long term actual harm, substantiated with evidence or case studies. This happened to my son, and trying to find any kind of reliable information about the road ahead is extremely difficult. This is very frustrating for a parent trying to figure out what to do next. That's why I'm still very interested in hearing from parents who had this happen some time ago.

For something so utterly basic, like foreskin care, it's hard to accept that the 'message just doesn't through' to doctors who insist on forcibly retracting our sons. I think that there has to be a wilfull non-acceptance by some doctors who differ in opinion to the AAP. If this issue is as big as we think, and the potential harm as severe as some believe, why is the message not getting through to our pediatricians? Married to the lack of accessible evidence regarding the actual long term effects, it makes for a very confusing situation indeed.

So, please, if your son was forcibly retracted, I would very much appreciate your guidance with regard to the road ahead. I also would like to thank the parents who have already responded with their words of advice.

Many Thanks

Peter


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Would a 'forced retraction' of your nail from your nailbed do more than 'cause possible problems'? Since that's the very kind of adhesion we are speaking of (and watch the separation of the fused foreskin to the glans in a circ video, if it's hard to grasp fully in words), I think it's reasonable to expect problems from 'soreness' to infection to problems manifesting themselves to years while the foreskin tries to reattach itself to the glans.

Read the polls with 'average age of retraction (one from 2006, & a current one) if you are concerned about false diagnoses of phimosis.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

With every respect to you and your position, watching a circ video would not necessarily help me at this point or answer questions that I have about my son. I often hear the analogy made with the nailbed. The difference however is that the nail is never meant to be ripped apart from the finger, at any stage. So, again, I'm looking for actual experience here from parents who have been through this and what happened next, how they care for the penis now, and what to look for in the long term - if the foreskin did reattach or not, and if it did, when and if it naturally parted from the glans. I have heard and read and scared myself silly about all of the stories about what 'might' happen - I want to hear from people who have actually been through this.

Many thanks everyone,

Peter

(against circumcision and forced retraction of any kind).


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Hi PeterJ. Welcome to MDC and The Case Against Circumcision. It seems that you are not geting the information you are looking for. I think we are not sure exactly what type of information you are searching for.
Quote:


> Again, I must stress that I fully support the advice to leave it alone and have followed this completely (especially now that I am more informed since the retraction happened to my son), but I don't think that it is helpful to scare parents with mostly *biased, anecdotal evidence that is not necessarily backed up by any studies, especially when parents are stressed after this may have happened to their son.*


And then you ask for:
Quote:


> That's why I'm still eager to reach out to parents who have had a forcible retraction done to their son, and what actually happened in the months and years afterward, how they cared for the penis and if there were any future problems.


It seems in the first statement, you want factual studies and not anecdotal information, but in the second, you are asking for anecdotal information. Could you clarify, so we can be sure you are getting the information you are searching for?


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## stelly (Sep 20, 2006)

Peter, being from England myself I can imagine that UK doctors don't see much of boys' penises. The initial baby check-ups are done by health visitors or midwives and then after that there is little intervention in the life of a healthy child. Certainly I never went to the doctor growing up unless I was rather ill, at which point they would assess only the part of me that was ill (and I'm about your age, so perhaps you had a similar experience). I can't imagine that a GP's daily work life involves much inspection of foreskins.

I am also very anti-circumcision, and would prefer to prevent any son of mine from having his foreskin forcibly retracted, but I think under the circumstances you've described there does not seem to be lasting harm that has been done from that momentary retraction.

I can understand your need to hear other stories, but I'm sure people aren't too motivated to post online their tale of how their son was retracted but nothing bad happened - it's not very newsworthy or exciting, if you see what I mean. When my daughter was a year old she cut her head open and had to have stitches, which the doctor did without any numbing of the area at all. It was horrific, but at the time we thought the doctor knew best and weren't really sure what she did/didn't do. I was in pieces for weeks thinking about how horrible the experience must have been for my child, and what damage it could have done her, how I could have prevented it. But the truth of it is that I was worrying for no reason, she recovered, remembered nothing of it and has no scars. I hope this will be the case for your son.

I hope you don't mind me giving my opinions.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Stelly - Thanks for your reply - of course I don't mind you voicing your opinion! I'm glad to hear from anyone with something to say on this issue.

Thinking back to my own experiences growing up in the UK in the 1980s, I think you are right. There were no regular visits or checkups to monitor development, as such. The only time I remember my gentials being "checked' as an infant, was when a health visitor came to our school, and did some very basic checks, including looking down my pants for about one second! It's funny how I remember that so clearly.

You're also right about people wanting to post on issues that have the most impact. But I think what I'm really looking for, is for those parents who have posted here about a forced retraction in the past, to reconnect with us, and let us know if there have been any further issues. This would be of enormous benefit to parents, like myself, who are looking for guidance from actual cases. It is so common for parents to post on an issue, and then months perhaps years pass, and one wonders what happened. I have PM'd a few of the parents who have posted in the past, who have been kind enough to reply, and I thank them again for their advice.

Peter


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi QueenOfThe Meadow - thanks for your reply. I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear. I guess you could call advice and guidance from parents "anecdotal" and not particularly scientific, but at present I think it is more valuable to me, personally, to connect with parents who have experienced this issue, due to the lack of scientific information or conducted studies regarding forced retraction and the future problems associated with it. I have read all of the information about the possible future difficulties, but it is not at all clear as to how prevalent these future problems are. In the absence of scientific studies about the after effects of forced retraction and the volume of incidences associated with it, I feel that contacting parents is a reasonable method of trying to gain this kind of information that is otherwise lacking. Also, if there were problems that surfaced as a direct result of the retraction, it would be very beneficial to discover how parents dealt with that, and the specific methods that were used.

Kind regards

Peter


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## stelly (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PeterJ*
> 
> But I think what I'm really looking for, is for those parents who have posted here about a forced retraction in the past, to reconnect with us, and let us know if there have been any further issues.


Very good point, I've noticed in the past that people are often not good on MDC at following up to their posts, you can type lots of helpful info. into a reply to them and then they apparently never come back to read it. Follow-up to things like retraction that happened several years ago would be super helpful, so would updates to breastfeeding problem stories and so on.

I'm glad you got some responses from PMs. Good luck with everything.


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## melinstar (Dec 9, 2010)

I am expecting a boy in July, and have been wanting to post a question in this forum about what harm can be done when a childcare provider, doctor, family member--whoever--retracts a baby or child's foreskin (before it's naturally retractable). I have been afraid to make that post, however, because I fear people may not fully share experiences, thinking those experiences may be used as a rationale to support circumcision. As PeterJ did repeatedly in this thread, if I were to go ahead and make that post, I thought I'd have to strongly reiterate that it was solely for information, and not for some contrary rational to circumcise. I feared I couldn't assume that since I was posting in this forum of MDC, it would be obvious that I'm anti-circ/forced retraction of any kind.

So, I also support the sharing of anecdotal experiences regarding forced retraction for information and education, and for no other agenda.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PeterJ*
> 
> Again, I'm absolutely against medically unecessary circumcision and forced retraction of any kind. But there's obviously a lot of confusion over this issue, and I feel that as parents we deserve to know the truth. That's why I'm still eager to reach out to parents who have had a forcible retraction done to their son, and what actually happened in the months and years afterward, how they cared for the penis and if there were any future problems.
> 
> ...


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

I disagree with the nail bed analogy personally (and think it makes our side looks like we are over reacting). Some animals are born with their eyes fused at birth, and forcing them open early causes problems. I find that a better analogy- and I'm sure others have come up with even better analogies than I. Will try to come back and post more later when I can. Jessica


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I think the analogy of the fingernail is used because it is something that most people can relate to. Since I believe everyone has turned a nail back on occasion and knows how badly that hurts. But you are right in that the fingernail is never meant to come off.

I like the analogy of the eyes of animals but dont think it gives the reader a deep visceral reaction like the fingernail one does.


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## laura* (Aug 5, 2008)

Hi -

Here's a great trick really important for everyone to know about intact boys who need a catheter - point the penis all the way flat against the abdomen, towards the belly button! This lines up the opening so that retraction is not necessary.

This was passed on to me from my awesome Oregon pediatrician while I was in an east coast ER with my very small son, fighting off the nurse who thought she had to retract all the way to place the cath. (The MD there said "but what's the big deal? you should be retracting it every time you wash him anyway. ! This was in 2008!)

good to know!

Laura


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *laura**
> 
> Hi -
> 
> ...


That is really good information to know about how to place a cath. I hope that you took the time to explain to the Dr. how big a deal it actually was.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Update: My son is now close to eight months old. We took him for his regular checkup a few weeks ago. I decided to take him to a different pediatrician, in order to get a second opinion and ask the many questions that I had regarding what happened back in January. I was very relieved to hear that and the new Dr. knew all about forced retraction and the problems that can arise as a result. He examined my son (without retracting of course), and told me that everything looks normal. I was so relieved to hear that!

I noticed that from around the age of six months, my son was starting to notice his penis, at bathtimes, and was pulling on it and stretching the foreskin quite hard. I've heard this is a totally normal part of a boy discovering his body and no harm will result, so I just let him get on with it! Obviously I have done nothing to forcibly retract the skin, just cleaning the outside, Just recently, at bathtime, I noticed that the very end of his foreskin was very loose and open. While I was gently cleaning that area, I noticed that the skin was very loose indeed and when he was holding it, the skin was retracting a little! So it appears that his foreskin has naturally detached from his penis, perhaps with a little help from him playing with it! This is an enormous relief for me, because I was very worried that the forced retraction may have set my son up for problems in the future with adhesions or phimosis.

For those parents worried, just as I was, after a forced retraction, I would just like them to know that it does not automatically mean that your son will face problems as a result.

Peter


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## seili (Apr 10, 2011)

Thanks for asking this!

I came to this board to specifically ask this same question!

We are expecting our second son and we are not circumcising this time. I was wondering if we would run into problems with doctors who might try to examine and at least partially, retract. I was wondering, in advance, if that would be a normal thing for a doctor to do to look for problems or if I should be on the alert to make sure it doesn't happen.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Be on alert to prevent it. There are more Dr's out there than not who have no idea they shouldnt be trying to retract.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Seili

The fact that you are seeking advice and doing your own research is an enormously positive thing. I wish that I had read more about this issue and had been better prepared. As a parent who had his son forcibly retracted by a pediatrican, at four months, there's a couple of things that I would absolutely do differently if we have another boy. Despite all the reading and research you can do, the Drs office can be rather an intimidating place to be, especially if there is a conflict of opinion over an issue like this. The best advice I can give is to get the issue out in the open before the examination starts. Let the Dr know that you understand that the AAP guidelines say that an infant should never have his foreskin forcibly retracted. Print off the guidlines so that you can show them to the Dr if you need to. If you have a Dr who is uninformed about intact boys, this will really help support your position and educate your Dr at the same time. It will be hard indeed for the Dr to go against the opinion of the organization who he/she is most likely board certified by, and it makes it very difficult to dismiss your opinion as uneducated or formed by 'what you read on the internet.' If you're uncomfortable about the level of care given by the Dr, then of course you put your child first, and walk, and find a better Dr - which is what I did.

Secondly, there's some practical advice for the care of the foreskin itself. I apologize if you already know this stuff, but I think it's worth repeating. The basic advice is to leave it alone. When cleaning the penis, do so as if cleaning a finger - exterior only. There is no need to retract before it's ready, because the skin is naturally fused to the glans and provides protection from germs. Forcibly retracting can cause problems later on if the skin reattaches, causing adhesions, or if the foreskin is damaged, leading to the formation of scar tissue. Both issues can create problems for the future and could prevent natural retraction, possibly leading to conditions called phimosis (unable to retract) or para-phimosis (foreskin stuck in retracted position, requiring immediate medical attention).

Current educated medical opinion says that some babies can be naturally retracted in the first year, for some boys it takes much longer, sometimes several years. There is no schedule and obviously every boy is different. The absolute best advice I can give you is that if you have any concerns with the penis or foreskin, seek out a Dr who knows how to treat intact boys.

Hope this helps!

Peter


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## reborn (Feb 17, 2011)

I agree with Seili! Thanks for posting and adding to this discussion, Peter J. We are expecting a baby boy July 1 and are not circumcising. I am the worrying type and I am terrified that some family member or pediatrician will retract the foreskin without our permission. I'm not sure how to make sure this does not happen without stepping on toes or sounding like a jerk. :-/ It makes me want to prevent anyone other than my husband or myself from changing our baby's diaper or bathing him!

Somehow I suspect this is the only the beginning of the controversial issues I"ll need to speak up about, and I need to get used to getting "mean" for the sake of our baby.


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## howeberry (Mar 9, 2011)

PeterJ - Thanks so much for the thread and advice on telling the ped. to back off. I'm afraid this will be an issue at my little guy's 6 mo check up next month...

Are the AAP guidelines on "just leave it alone" online anywhere? If so, can you link them here?

Thanks!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

AAP Intact Care Guide http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/ under foreskin hygein
Quote:


> The uncircumcised penis is easy to keep clean. No special care is required! No attempt should be made to forcibly retract the foreskin. No manipulation is necessary.


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

Hi Howeberry -

I see that MCatLvrMom provided a link to the guidelines for you. This is a great link and provides a lot of information. I found a slightly more up to date version here, in pdf format - http://northplattepeds.com/pdfs/azH0023r.pdf This was the version that I took to my new Ped. It provides essentially the same info as the first link, but in a more updated, brochure format.

Good luck with your 6 month visit. I'm sure that armed with all of this good information, you'll be absolutely fine.

Peter


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## laura* (Aug 5, 2008)

hey reborn,

if it helps, i've phrased that conversation as, "my pediatrician said to make sure to tell everyone taking care of my son not to retract the foreskin - evidently they used to recommend pulling the foreskin back, but more current research as shown that it's better to just clean the outside." i've had that conversation a lot - with every babysitter and especially grandparents - and I think phrased this way it's pretty non-judgemental.

good luck -

laura


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## reborn (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks Laura, that does help.


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## MSWmama (Mar 3, 2011)

Just to add another data point to this thread, my son was retracted at his 6-month visit. It was a doc we'd never seen before, but everyone else in the practice seemed so foreskin-friendly, I was shocked! She must not have retracted him all the way, because he didn't even flinch. I took him to another ped a few days later because there was a weird looking "ring" around his penis and I wanted to make sure everything was ok. This ped examined him (obviously without retracting) and said it's probably just a normal anatomical variation that we'd never noticed before (I admit, I'd never closely examined his penis before the retraction, so that's very possible). She said that you can never say anything for sure, but long-term effects would be rare after a one-time partial retraction that caused no immediate bleeding, severe pain, etc. Of course she said that retraction is bad and to make sure it doesn't happen again, but she did make me feel a lot better about it. This just happened last week so I guess we'll have to see what the long-term effects are, if any. Obviously, we're switching pediatric practices. I guess I'm hoping this serves as a reminder to everyone to say something every time, even if you think you're in a safe place.


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## ddhrewer (May 25, 2011)

Peter, I apologize if I'm missing something here, so maybe my response/advice is not helpful, but -- why don't you just have the foreskin cut off?

Whether or not you belong to a faith which ritually follows circumcision -- I happily do -- if the idea is to spare your child pain or "mutilation", his foreskin seems to be creating for him discomfort and even pain now, and could cause him much worse later.

So either way, you as the father have to make important choices for your son.

Am I missing something here?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Hi ddhrewer welcome to the forum as you can see this place is called The Case AGAINST circ so our goal here is to keep all boys intact and to help parents with question that come up with the intact penis when Dr's are little to no help since circ used to be so prevelent here in the USA.

The boys foreskin is not causing him issues the op just wants to know what the odds are that it will and if he should be doing something different. Cutting something off just because it might cause issues later is not how things should be done.


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## ddhrewer (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation. What a parent decides to do on this issue is, of course, completely the choice of the parent, and I respect anyone who decides against non-ritual circumcision. It doesn't seem as if there is overwhelming evidence that retention of the foreskin necessarily leads to disease.

I guess it just seems like there's so much medical evidence FOR circumcision based upon the foreskin's role in promulgating sexually-transmitted diseases, and such a relative paucity of medical evidence AGAINST circumcision, that .... why *wouldn't* a caring parent choose circumcision for his child? Or at least consider it.

What's baffling me today, as I read the mind-boggling news coming out of San Francisco and Santa Monica, is why anyone would take it upon themselves to try and tell the rest of the world how to act on this issue. Is the need to personally be at the helm of the Nanny State so overpowering that it cannot even be resisted on the topic of my son's foreskin?

Bizarre and troubling.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

The ban on circumcision is about increasing individual rights not taking away parental rights. I don't know about you but I am sure glad my parents didn't have a say in which body parts I was allowed to keep, since I'm a girl. I want my son's to be able to have the right to their whole body, I want that for all the son's out there.

STD prevention is a myth and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of keeping boys intact, if you read more then just news articles.

I care very deeply about my boys, I want all the best for them. That is why we kept them intact.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Hi, ddhrewer. Welcome to MDC. I want to gently point out to you that the name of the forum you are posting in is "The Case *Against* Circumcision." Our forum guidelines are stickied to the top of the forum:
Quote:


> Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. TCAC hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, care of the intact child's penis and other educational topics. We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision


.

I do hope you stick around and take the time to look around the forum a little bit. You may be very surprised by what you learn.


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## japonica (May 26, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ddhrewer*
> 
> I guess it just seems like there's so much medical evidence FOR circumcision based upon the foreskin's role in promulgating sexually-transmitted diseases, and such a relative paucity of medical evidence AGAINST circumcision, that .... why *wouldn't* a caring parent choose circumcision for his child? Or at least consider it.


Because it's not MY choice to make. It's my son's. It's his body. And he is not old enough to consent to an elective cosmetic procedure. Simple, really.


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## briannas auntie (Feb 21, 2011)

I am in college to become a medical biller and coder, and we just learned about the male reproductive system (and how to code for different tests and problems associated with this system). When I read the section on circumcision in my medical textbook (The Language of Medicine, 9th edition), it says that most doctors start to retract the foreskin at 5 months and instruct parents to do the same to avoid problems later on in life.

But.... when I read the two books I recently bought on Amazon.com on circumcision (Circumcision Exposed and Say No To Circumcision), it says to never retract the foreskin until it is ready to be retracted. It says in both books that this usually happens in the preteen ages (8-12) and the foreskin becomes completely retractable in the teens around 13-16 years of age. The books say that the reason the foreskin doesn't retract in infancy is because its a protective measure to keep the glans healthy, and that forcebly retracting too soon can cause scarring/adhesions and infections, due to raw skin exposed.

So, it goes to show you that books that are written by US doctors will commonly have false information about circumcision, because its uncommon to see an intact penis in the US, so most doctors don't know how to deal with that (they are used to the other way around).

For the person who wants to take her baby to a urologist, DON'T!!! The urologist I see for a neurogenic bladder does circumcisions routinely, and I have heard many of times a baby screaming in agony from having a circumcision done when I have been in the waiting room. It brings tears to my eyes everytime when I hear that and I just want to punch the doctors teeth out when he performs that and causes so much pain to those infants. Urologist are just as "circumcision-happy" as standard pediatricians.

Jessie


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## PeterJ (Jan 30, 2011)

ddhrewer,

I have no intention of having my son circumcised, because his foreskin is not causing him any pain or discomfort whatsoever. The temporary discomfort was caused by an uneducated Pediatrician who forcibly retracted my son's foreskin at four months, which led to my original post and the beginning of this thread. Even if it was causing him discomfort, there are numerous treatments available to enable him to retain a valuable part of his body and avoid unnecessary and potentially dangerous surgery, before circumcision is even considered as an option. As a parent, I *am* making important choices for my son, including allowing him to keep his penis intact, contributing to the health of his penis and his future sexual health and wellbeing, and avoiding circumcision for the sake of following a cultural norm and the miniscule chance that it may cause him some difficulties in the future. Often these 'difficulties' are misdiagnoses by urologists who do not understand the difference between physiological and pathological phimosis of the foreskin, incorrectly believing that a boy should be able to retract by a certain given age. There is a great deal of educating to do in order to inform people that the foreskin has a function in the health of the penis and is not a valueless piece of tissue to be lopped off at the first sign of trouble, or worse, when there is no sign of trouble at all.

However I agree with you that mandating on this issue is not the way forward. Education is the way forward.

Peter


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