# Baby Whipping Business



## lovemybaby

Hi everyone,

There is a business in California that sells ONLY books about whipping babies and devices to do it with. They say their device "leaves the right amount of sting" and they claim that using this thing is "loving" and "produces warriors for Christ!"

They include "Basic Tips on Chastisement" with their device, which says: "Carry out chastisement immediately upon the first disobedience or rebellion" and "Don't allow squirming or screaming during chastisement" and "Give enough strokes to obtain obedience and a submitted will".

One of the books they sell is "To Train Up a Child" which is about whipping infants and children on their bare skin, for crying and for "disobedience". One of the other books they sell says it's OK to leave "stripes" ie, bruises and welts. You can see their torture merchandise at http://www.biblicalchildtraining.com/order.htm Is this sick or what????

Please speak out! You can complain to them directly at [email protected]

You can also report them to the Consumer Product Safety Commission at [email protected]


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## nora--not a llama

OMG. I feel sick. uke


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## bjorker

Are you sure that's not a joke? That looks so much like a joke. Right down to the inches of the thing written in paint.

I sure hope so, anyway.


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## lovemybaby

To bjorker - It's for real, unfortunately! A friend & I each ordered one of the "chastising instruments" and they are flexible, blue slapping things just like in the picture http://www.biblicalchildtraining.com/ci.jpg I just cringe thinking of people abusing their babies by whipping them with one of these horrors. If you order one you'll see for yourself, or you can call them at 661-588-4102 and you can ask them about their "chastising instrument" and their how-to books on whipping babies.

They're not going to stop unless lots of people speak out, so please do! Write them at [email protected] and/or complain to the CPSC at [email protected]

There are also 2 petitions to sign against these whipping devices:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...ltl=1127998999
http://www.stoptherod.net


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## Juliacat

Given what I understand about the way these people think, complaining about it, especially to them, will only make them all the more determined to do more of the same. They WANT to be as different as possible from people like us. They derive a sense of satisfaction from our indignance.


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## MrsNavigator

OMG I think I'm going to be sick.

It is like a gun dealer...I wonder if they can be coSued when someone goes to trial for child abuse?


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## mommaJ

Ugh. I feel ill. How can anyone think this is okay??


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## Raven

I think rather that complaing directly to them we should complain to CPSC


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## ozzyemm

I checked this site, and sure enough, these people operate out of my hometown. This is NOT uncommon for Bakersfield-- WAY conservative view point. Spanking children is very common as a discipline. unfortunately, this business doesn't surprise me at all.

I'm sure ppl in our town would buy this product, although even before I was "enlightened" (read: found MDC







) I would NEVER buy a tool to discipline my child. I was taught that spanking should only be done with the hand, that way you can "judge" the severity of the hit. <sigh> What we still retain, eh?


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## rozzie'sma

It's esentially smacking a baby with a ruler. It's horrible. I recently ended my only friendship in this town because I found out she smacks her 1 year old son with a wood spoon. I was so disapointed because she came across so AP. Sorry to hijack, they're both just things that rub me wrong.


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## westernmamomma

Here is a coply of the letter I sent to the cpsc. I encourage you all to draft your own and send it to them ASAP!

To Whom It May Concern,

I was sickened today to learn of the existance of the web site www.biblicalchildtraining.com. This is a business operated in our country that sells "Chastising Tools" which appear to be nothing more than a marketed form of child abuse. In a country where abuse is rampant, a store such as this only encourages parental behavior that scars children both physically and mentally for the rest of their lives. Marketed under the guise of "bring(ing) joy and peace into your home", the books, materials, and instructions found through this site are abhorrant. I beg of you to investigate this site and it's questionable ideals which lead to child abuse with each purchase.


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## WickidaWitch




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## bjorker

uke

I have such a hard time accepting that. Especially because these people are doing this in the name of "god" ... that is seriously demented. What sick





















does it take not only to do that, but to think that it's somehow connected to religion, and then push to sell them as something good and wholesome.































...excessive use of smilies means I'm having a REALLY hard time not swearing... :ignore


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## a~...Mamacitaa~...

uke uke uke uke I feel so sick, i really got a evil vibe from that site and I feel like I am going to throw up


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## lovemybaby

Here's another good way to speak out, by writing to their webhost! Their webhost is "Green Olive Tree" and they take complaints at [email protected] I just wrote them and asked them to drop "Child Training Resources" as their client because it violates their policy.

"Green Olive Tree" says on their website that they do not accept clients who use their service to "harm, or attempt to harm, minors."

Whipping an infant on her/his bare skin is definitely harmful! And leaving "stripes" and welts, and forcing submission, and not allowing them to squirm or scream!

Please speak out, and tell others about this hideous "business"!!!! Such blatant and extreme child abuse relies on relative secrecy to survive.

Now I'll get off the







and go uke uke uke


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## a~...Mamacitaa~...

I wrote to the e-mail addy provided this is what i wrote.

I would like to know what kind of sicko would spank a baby. I hope you go to hell and have to answer God, You people think that you are doing Gods work, but it Satan you work for. Taking a child's innocent away, you are sick. This will be reported to CPSP and the local authority

And this is what they wrote back
Dear Amanda,

Thanks for your note below. Even though we disagree about chastisement, I appreciate that you are interested enough to voice your opinion. Though I am not sure how you got the understanding that we beat babies, I can assure you this is not the case. I am afraid someone has spread terrible falsehoods to you about us and our ministry to loving parents who seek to raise godly children who follow Christ. That is very unfortunate.

As to chastisement, perhaps it would help you to understand that much of the problem with people's perception of physical chastisement is influenced greatly by the significant amount of child abuse that goes on in the world today. That is to say, the news is full of stories about horrible child abuse and the result has been that many people have come to view spanking itself as abuse (whether done correctly and in love or not). May I say emphatically agree with you that parents should never chasten their children out of anger or harshness; such chastening is usually done out of anger as a last resort after many reminders of ever-increasing volume. Such action is abusive and and very damaging and both Child Training Resources and I personally are totally opposed to such abuse. Biblical chastisement is done out of calm yet firm love that cares enough to turn a child from rebellion that will ruin his/her life if left unchecked.

The problem is that people cannot conceive of physical chastisement being carried out by loving and caring parents who desire their children to grow up to become responsible and confident adults who love God follow His ways. I assure you however, there is a huge difference between loving chastisement and abusive parenting (of which we see way too much these days!).

Not knowing if you are a Christian, it may help you to understand that physical chastisement, when done properly (ie. done calmly, in relationship, in humility, with sacrificial love, for the best interest of the child and never in anger) is a direct Biblical command to Christian parents. You may look at the following examples: II Sam. 7:24; Proverbs 13:24; Proverbs 19:18; Proverbs 22:15; Proverbs 23:13-14; Proverbs 29:15; Hebrews 12:6-11. However, regardless of where you stand with Jesus Christ, it is not my goal to convince you that the Biblical way is the right way. All I hope to do here is to encourage you to consider that correct and loving Biblical chastisement is very different from abuse. It is sad that our society and its thinking has so twisted the facts by equating all chastisement as evil and abusive. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Many have said that spanking psychologically damages a child. I agree that abusive spanking will damage a child (in many ways). However, it should be clear that what we teach and practice in our home and what the Bible teaches is not abuse and does not psychologically damage children. In fact, I believe children who are lovingly trained and disciplined (which includes chastisement) in the context of a loving relationship with their parents are healthier emotionally, psychologically and spiritually than those raised in homes that either do not practice chastisement and are too permissive or that are abusive (physically or emotionally).

I would love to have you meet each of my 6 children face to face some day. Then perhaps you could judge for yourself whether they live in total fear and will grow up to be dysfunctional, depressed and angry adults or whether they are secure, responsible, self-controlled and very happy, well adjusted children who love the Lord and who will grow up to follow Him with all their hearts. The latter is my goal and a passion of my heart.

Not knowing your background or where you are coming from on all this, it is hard to know how to answer you further. In fact, judging from your email, somehow I doubt this answer will satisfy you (I could be wrong). However, I hope that these thoughts may begin to open your mind and heart to distinguish between responsible chastisement and abusive treatment of children.

Most of all, I pray that you will seek and come to know personally (if you do not already) the God of the Bible in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ. Only through personal knowledge of Christ will you come to understand and trust the wisdom of God's ways. I pray you will see your need for a Savior, turn from your sin and find forgiveness and eternal hope in Christ. If you are open to that, may I suggest you read the Gospel of John and ask God to open your heart to what you read about the God-man, Jesus Christ, who came to save and will come again to judge.

Warmly in Christian love,

Steve Haymond
Child Training Resources

We have to do something to stop this, come on mamas , it rally time!!!!!


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## amyjeans

Sorry, but that isn't the Christ I know....
bend your child to your will? Terrible philosophy. Chasten children to fear their parents? I can not think of anyone hitting someone out of love. Even in jest.
Will do what I can.

Quote:

Jesus Christ, who came to save and will come again to judge.
Oh yeah, he's gonna judge alright. That man better _pray_ for forgiveness.


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## sweetest

Wow. That is pure evil 









Where is Bakersfield? Do you think the local newspapers would run a story about this? Or would that rally the "believers"?

I just dont know how to argue with people who think Jesus is on thier side


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## Sharlla

Terrible

# Unbreakable - will last a lifetime! *
# Convenient - fits easily into purse or travel bag!
# Affordable - buy one for kitchen, bedroom, car - wherever!


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## Sherra

History is scarred with people who have done stuff in the name of religion, doesn't have to include God.

This sickens me. I am a Christian and when I read the same bible they say they do, I get a completely different message. How sad. I don't know any of my christian friends that do this to their children.

I still can remember a spanking done with supposedly love from my christian school in 3rd grade. It did absolutely NO good. Yah, I felt the "love". /rolls eyes

Quote:

The problem is that people cannot conceive of physical chastisement being carried out by loving and caring parents who desire their children to grow up to become responsible and confident adults who love God follow His ways.
No sir, I see the problem is that YOU people cannot conceive that you can accomplish this without physical chastisement and are not willing to even try. It's about understanding God's creation and how the development of a child is and understanding how to effectively parent through the different ages.

Sherra


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## mysweetfiona

I used to live in Bakersfield. Had no idea something like that is going on. I am not that far away now. Why? I just can't understand why? Bakersfield fought and fought to keep a nudey club out, but I don't think the "good people" know about this, or there would be protest. How do we raise _ell?

ughh
Lori


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## Sherra

One thing you can do is take the books that are on that site and go to amazon.com and go rate them very low.

I spent a few minutes doing that the other day. I went through all the comments and the ones that talked highly about the book, I clicked on that their comment wasn't helpful. So atleast when people go to those books, they not only are low rated but also if they choose the most helpful comments, hopefully the ones I bumped that chastised how bad the book was will get read by new parents and maybe they'll think about things and not buy the book.

It sounds silly but I use amazon.com ALL the time to figure out what books to try and I always look over the most helpful comments in the ratings to help me make my decision. If it's a low rated book, I don't even bother period.

Sherra


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## mysweetfiona

Ok, here's what I think. I know many Christian and God loving families who are members of various churches in Bakersfield. Why don't they defend their Loving God? And put these people out of business? Couldn't that happen? Civil Court or something? What about the agencies that protect and defend abused children, wouldn't they be upset? ***AND We could always write to Oprah and Dr. Phil. ***


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## mysweetfiona

my message was duplicated. oops.


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## Millie Ivy

I believe this company is the same one that some at MDC "discovered" last year. Truly sickening. I don't think I could even write to them because I know it won't make a difference and I might spit nails!!!
Did you read the description on the Pearls book "revision"? They talk about it emphasizing how to spank less etc. I wonder if some of the pressure from the gentler community finally got to them a little?


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## lesley&grace

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetest*
I just dont know how to argue with people who think Jesus is on thier side









You have a greater chance of teaching a pig to dance salsa than convince someone who truly believes Jesus is on their side that they are wrong.

I have sent out e-mails, no responses yet. I also looked up the scripture that they sent to Mamacita and I plan to bring them to my Minister on Sunday to see if he can help me make sense of how those verses transalte to "whip your baby when she cries"


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## lesley&grace

Sent an e-mail to Dr Phil, empasizing that I have read Family First and no where in his philosophy does it say "hit 'em with sticks". Will update everyone when I get responses to what I've sent out.


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## a~...Mamacitaa~...

please Sherra and others who feel so strongly about this issuse, write letter nd e-mails to them and to the CSPS, we need to let these people nknow that this isn't how we treat any HUMAN!!!


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## mysweetfiona

I am trying to work on a letter. I just want to yell! So, I am going to take a day to find a way to clearly express myself.

Horray! You emailed Dr. Phil! I want to send him a copy of my letter as well. He has such a BIG presence and influence in America. It's crazy, I wouldn't take all my kids' stuff away, like he suggests, but I really like his position on family values, etc....

You ladies are THE BEST! I think we all can stir this up loud enough to bring awareness to Bakersfield and the rest of America, not just about hitting babies for the Lord, but to clarify what the Lord is intended to do, and why/ how spanking/hitting children is wrong, alternatives to spanking,,,,etc. Most of all, to put a Baby Spanking Business OUT!

Lori


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## mamamillie

Quote:

A friend & I each ordered one of the "chastising instruments"
Supporting their business is not a good way to close them down! I am sure you didn't buy it to use on your child, but they are in business to make money...by sending them some of yours, you gave them your support.


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## Juliacat

Look, I totally agree that this is wrong, sickening and terrible, but children are abused everywhere, every day, in many cases much worse than this. Much, much worse, in fact. Why all the fuss about ONE business? Is it because they come right out and sell an instrument specifically designed for hitting children, as opposed to, say, a belt or cooking spoon manufacturer? I would love to see an end to child abuse, but this doesn't seem to me like an effective campaign.


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## mysweetfiona

I think that it is the INTENT of this business to harm children that makes it horrific. Belts and spoons are intended for other purposes, and usually purchased accordingly. It is the information that can come out of this avenue that can be used to enlighten people and bring awareness to the harm that spanking, hitting....inflicts. And also, to clarify (on behalf of some people out there I'm sure) what their spiritual beliefs are intended to do. I'm not even a Christian, but I bet there are many people who would be offended that their God is being used this way.

Lori


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## Juliacat

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I doubt we'll change anyone's mind, but you never know.


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## Sherra

I think every little bit helps to change society. Sometimes you can't see your impact for a generation or so. Putting some light on this helps people go hmm..and atleast see there is another side and to check it out. Granted not everyone is like that, but there are some ppl who truly want to do the best for their children and stay open minded in the beginning. Tis why I like to rate these types of books as low and good comments about them as not helpful on amazon.com so that new buyers can think twice.

I'm not a dr. phil fan, he turns me off on a few issues but I am very glad that if he is going to influence people, he's done a fairly good job helping people with parenting. I think it would be great if he did his jerry springer thing and had these people on and made them look like fools haha...well he wouldn't have to make them look like fools, they already are.

As a Christian, this type of stuff mortifies me that they use God and Jesus to validate their hitting of children. I can't stand it when people think like this. I know I should put some energy into understanding the quotes they come up with and their context but I'm a bit on the lazy side. I just know in my bible studies when studying things like this, no where does it say that training up a child via hitting is what god recommends!

I think it's a true testament to a person's faith and character on how they treat helpless people: children, animals, elderly, sickly people. I have always thought that one of the points of having children is that we LEARN from them. I can't believe how much I've learned from my 6 month old already. I view the world completely different than I did 6 months ago. I also have never viewed children as something I "own" rather that it is something that God entrusts to me to develop in a kind/loving manner as Jesus was. He was sent here as an example and I don't recall him ordering a stick to beat children with!

Sherra


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## marybethorama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rozzie'sma*
It's esentially smacking a baby with a ruler. It's horrible. I recently ended my only friendship in this town because I found out she smacks her 1 year old son with a wood spoon. I was so disapointed because she came across so AP. Sorry to hijack, they're both just things that rub me wrong.

A one year old? OMG
That's sad


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## lovemybaby

To mamamillie -

I ordered one of the "chastising instruments" to be sure they really existed & to check out how it works - gives a REALLY nasty sting - I can only imagine the fear and pain a tiny baby must feel when whipped with this thing...

I sent it back along with a letter saying how detestable this baby-whipping business is and asked for a refund. I got a full refund from them. No, I don't want them to have any of my money









Thanks everyone for writing to them, to CPSC & Green Olive Tree! Green Olive Tree is thinking of dropping them as a webhost client - please write to them! [email protected]

Here's their letter:

Thank you for contacting us regarding this issue.

This complaint is currently under review and if the site is found to be in
violation of our Acceptable Use Policy the site will be removed.

If you feel that there is a crime being committed by the site's owner, then
you are encouraged to contact the proper authorities.

Abuse Department
Green Olive Tree
[email protected]


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## Annikate

Maybe we can all think of someone/somewhere to send this info for big time publicity. Wonder if a news station would pick it up? It'd be great if we could get 20/20 or one of those shows . . .The general population would be HORRIFIED! (I would hope.)

Quote:

History is scarred with people who have done stuff in the name of religion, doesn't have to include God.
That's exactly right! Sherra, that is a great quote. Can I use it when I write my letter?


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## lesley&grace

20/20 or any news magazine show would LOVE to show it I'm sure! They get into stuff like that....I'll see about e-mailing them, and I bet you can get it on the View as well, even if it's just as a Hot Topic....I'll see what I can do

Edited to add: I e-mailed 20/20 and each of the ladies of the View. Here's hoping...


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## Annikate

Just about to do the same . . .


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## lesley&grace

Got a letter back from Stephen Haymond, owner of the site, and it's the same letter that was posted earlier by Mamacita. In my response back to him, as well as commenting on many of the ridiculous excuses he uses to defend his practice, I also commented that it's obvious he meets a lot of opposition to his site if he has a form letter to respond to negative e-mails.

Also heard from the webhost, got the same "we are looking into it" response.


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## lovemybaby

Here's a list of some contacts:

Write to "Child Training Resources" directly - [email protected]
Write to their webhost - [email protected]
Write to the Consumer Product Safety Commission - [email protected]

"20/20" news - [email protected]
CNN - http://us.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11b.html?1
Oprah Winfrey - http://www2.oprah.com/email/reach/email_showideas.jhtml

I just wrote to 20/20 (great idea!) & CNN & Oprah.

Lesley&grace - how do you write to the View?


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## lupineperriwinkle

If that's the Christ I am praying to - I want a new one


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## Annikate

Emailed 20/20 & Dr. Phil. I'm drawing a blank on the other news mag shows . . . Oh! I'll send one to Oprah too. And CNN - thanks lovemybaby.
We should all email the Fox News Network too. . .


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## Annikate

oops - here's Dr. Phil's link:

http://www.drphil.com/plugger/respond/?plugID=9164


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## lesley&grace

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*

Lesley&grace - how do you write to the View?

http://abc.go.com/daytime/theview

there a link that says "E-mail your View" and you can e-mail each of the ladies that way!

Happy to see everyone writing and getting active!


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## baileyandmikey

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans*
Sorry, but that isn't the Christ I know....
bend your child to your will? Terrible philosophy. Chasten children to fear their parents? I can not think of anyone hitting someone out of love. Even in jest.
Will do what I can.

Oh yeah, he's gonna judge alright. That man better _pray_ for forgiveness.


i agree.... what sick people. i believe in God and Jesus Christ, and that is not the truth of the bible. ugh.... sick people.


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## lovemybaby

Thanks lesley&grace and Anniekatiemom - I wrote to the View and Dr. Phil.

One of the things that bothers me most about "Child Training Resources" is the sense of legitimacy given to hitting babies. When businesses like this are allowed to exist that actually sell devices to beat babies, and "how-to" books on how to beat them into submission, I think it makes it look more acceptable to some people, and helps spread a very toxic view of parenting. And "Child Training Resources" actually sells IN BULK to churches









It shouldn't be tolerated! These kinds of businesses should be shut down.


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## lovemybaby

One of the books they sell is called "Shepherding a Child's Heart". It's really sick, they say spanking "is an expression of love and commitment. The spanking is designed to rescue the child from continuing in his foolishness. If he continues, his doom is certain."

"You must be careful to avoid unnecessary exposure to being reported by someone who does not approve of spanking. Spanking should be done in the privacy of the home." And it should be done to obtain "willing submission, without challenge, without excuse, without delay." The book says to start spanking as young as 8 months old!

"If you fail to spank, you fail to take God's word seriously." And this is how the book says to spank:

"Take the child to a private place. Tell the child how many swats he will receive. Remove his drawers so that the spanking is not lost in the padding of his pants. Lay the child across your lap rather than over a bed or a chair. This puts the spanking in the context of your physical relationship. After you have spanked, take the child up on your lap and hug him, telling him how much you love him."

This is so perverted and sadistic. I'm going to write a review of the book on Amazon! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846


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## Suzannah

Any updates? Any news from O. or Dr. P.?


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## Juliacat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
This is so perverted and sadistic.

Agreed. It sounds like a scenario straight out of a porn story.


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## Attached_Mom_to_7

I think I am going to be sick! I will also write my share of e-mails!! Just imagining, which is hard to do here, what these poor babies are being put through, :cry is wretching my heart.


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## Annikate

No news here yet. Keep writing everybody!


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## lovemybaby

No news yet for me either.

The webhost for this business, "Green Olive Tree", has a toll-free # 800-269-6465. We could all call them! I can't imagine them actually wanting Child Training Resources as a customer.

They SAY they won't host anything to do with child abuse, especially child pornography. Whipping and slapping bare little bottoms sure seems abusive and pornographic to me!

These poor poor babies who are being raised this way














How can they ever understand what was done to them, how can they ever recover?

How can anyone hit a baby??? And call it "love"!


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## Attached_Mom_to_7

I'm calling!


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## Attached_Mom_to_7

Just called Green Olive Tree and the guy told me that yes, in fact, he knew exactly what I was talking about because they have received ALOT of e-mails and phone calls regarding these people, that they are hosting. He told me that at this time, they are underinvestagation with them and will be handling it properly? He also encouraged me that if I do beleive that these people are doing harm as we say, we need to also contact the proper authorites as well. I told him thankyou very much and I would do just that.


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## AntoninBeGonin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached_Mom_to_7*
I'm calling!

Me, too! Tomorrow morning, first thing. Let's get these f's out of business!

~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin

I just thought of this. **Evil grin**









Wouldn't it be great if a bunch of MDC mamas and daddys went to one of these spanking-manual book signings with our own purchased spanking wand? We'd patiently stand in line, smiling and nodding at all the people worthless enough to actually WANT to be near these sort of people, and when it was our turn to meet the authors we'd whip (ha ha pun intended!) out our spanking tool, flip the authors over our knees, remove their clothes and beat them just like they suggest in the book! Hey, if an infant can take it, so can they, right? And once they start crying from the pain, we can look at the other patrons and say, "Yeah, an adult can't even stand the pain, how on earth do you







think a baby deserves this?"

It'll never happen. Poetic justice never comes in real life...

~Nay, the dreamer of silly things


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## melissa_honeybee

You know the terrible thing is, if you used that on an adult at the book signing, you would get arrested. But it's legal to use it on a child....makes me sick!!

I do like that idea though!


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## ozzyemm

Nay-- I am all for it


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## BetsyPage

I just wanted to say that I think you ladies are definitely doing the right thing.









However, I have recently had some experiences that lead me to believe that folks who believe in this so-called "Biblical training" of babies/children actually seem to "thrive" and become more self-righteous and resolute that they will continue to "train" their children.







(Which as a Christian makes me wanna puke). When confronted about the reality of what they are doing to their children they just deny, spin, and spit back at you.

So in terms of changing the hearts of individuals, I fear this won't do much and may individuals have the opposite effect. But on the other hand, if no one tries to stop them, then that is obviously an injustice. I just hope that if this does get press coverage, then it will make at least one parent think, "Hey, wait a minute, maybe what I'm doing isn't OK and isn't sanctioned by God." But I certainly would love to see the end of someone actually PROFITTING from selling things like the rod and the books by the Pearls, Tripp, and others of their ilk.


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## Annikate

Who do you think the "proper authorities" are? I mean, if this is commonplace in that town it won't make any difference calling child protective or local authorities will it? That's why it'd be great if some national news mag would jump on it. Anybody remember the other network's versions of 20/20? I draw a blank whenever I try to recall the names of the shows. I'll email them too . . .


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## AutumnMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage*
I just wanted to say that I think you ladies are definitely doing the right thing.









However, I have recently had some experiences that lead me to believe that folks who believe in this so-called "Biblical training" of babies/children actually seem to "thrive" and become more self-righteous and resolute that they will continue to "train" their children.







(Which as a Christian makes me wanna puke). When confronted about the reality of what they are doing to their children they just deny, spin, and spit back at you.

So in terms of changing the hearts of individuals, I fear this won't do much and may individuals have the opposite effect. But on the other hand, if no one tries to stop them, then that is obviously an injustice. I just hope that if this does get press coverage, then it will make at least one parent think, "Hey, wait a minute, maybe what I'm doing isn't OK and isn't sanctioned by God." But I certainly would love to see the end of someone actually PROFITTING from selling things like the rod and the books by the Pearls, Tripp, and others of their ilk.









:


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## Attached_Mom_to_7

I just recieved word from Consumer Product Saftey Comm. they told me that would be out of their juristiction and to e-mail FTC(Federal Trade Comm.)Complaint Form


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## lovemybaby

I called the Consumer Product Safety Commission today and described Child Training Resources, and the CPSC man said they definitely deal with products such as this whipping device! He said it was important to file a complaint with them using their web complaint form for an "unsafe product", at https://www.cpsc.gov/incident.html

If you file a complaint, the company HAS to respond to it, it's the law! Let's all file complaints, I just did!

For "Name of Victim" I put in "babies and children"

For "Describe product involved" - blue polyethylene whipping device
For "Product Brand Name/Manufacturer" - "chastening instrument"/Child Training Resources
For Place where manufactured" - Bakersfield, CA
For "Product model" - N/A

In the space for describing the incident or hazard, you can give their street address & phone:

Child Training Resources
15520 Strebor Drive
Bakersfield, CA 93314
661-588-4102

And mention their "products" webpage: http://www.biblicalchildtraining.com/order.htm with a link to their "instrument" http://www.biblicalchildtraining.com/ci.jpg and tell them the product description says "Produces the right amount of sting"! And it certainly causes red marks from breaking capillaries!

I think if it's used often on the same area of skin, it would cause welts and bruises!

Filing a complaint with the FTC sounds good too!


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## AntoninBeGonin

Lovemybaby,

I just finished filling out a complaint form.







We'll win this one yet!

~Nay


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## SunRayeMomi

I hope there aren't a lot of emails going directly to the owner of this ridiculus business....like a few pp's said, telling them they're "sick-os" won't do anything productive. Perhaps those of you that are Christian and disagree could spend your time praying for their six unfortunate children. I know as well as all of you that I don't need spanking or a"device" to raise an obedient and wonderful daughter - mine is living proof of that. But as occult-mindsets go, this guy isn't going to change his mind about this. Heck, he's convinced that it's working for his family. Well, NOT using his product is working for mine. This makes me wonder where _he_ got this idea from. God knows there are people buying this.....and that's the scary part. While we can't change this dude's mind, we definitly should try to change the statis of his riduculus business.


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## westernmamomma

I sent in my complaint too! Hopefully it works.


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## lovemybaby

Thank you AntoninBeGonin & Westernmamomma!

To SunRayeMomi - Prayer is definitely good, I agree with you we probably won't change the owner's mind about his baby-whipping business. However, every email/phone call takes up his time, and has got to be a topic of conversation in the house by now! This will help his 6 children, who are now aware that there are people, lots of people, who don't agree with the "whippings for God" and "unquestioning obedience" beliefs of their parents. This is very validating for them, and will help them heal. They have been severely damaged, frightened into submission and probably very out of touch with their own needs and feelings. Having us stand up against this business sends a message to them that what they suffered at their parents' hands is wrong. It's like the "helping witness" that psychotherapist Alice ****** mentions in her books. People usually need someone to stand up for them in order to believe that their own parents were abusive. Because the parents will deny abuse, and call it "love" etc.

Also, the Consumer Product Safety Commission wants to be sure you've tried to "resolve" the difficulty with a company by contacting that company first. Here's the company's email address - [email protected] and phone # 661-588-4102


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## willow83

i just finished filling out a form too. let us know if anyone has heard anything...


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## Ahappymel

I just sent in my complaint too...this makes me sick.


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## heldt123

:


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## Annikate

Thanks for the info. lovemybaby
I agree too about not contacting them directly. They'd probably consider it a success if we all started writing to them. I'd rather deal with rational *sane* people!








I'm going to file my complaint now.


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## lovemybaby

There's a new petition started against this baby-whipping business:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...ltl=1127998999

Please sign, and tell your friends too


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## Greensleeves




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## Greensleeves

I have to say too that I'm pretty concerned about giving these people free publicity esp on national shows like Oprah and Dr. Phil. I think it's best to fight them as some are already doing, by reporting them to the CPSC, talking to their web hosts etc.

Going on one of these shows could net them thousands of new "customers", if only of their philosophy.


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## AntoninBeGonin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunRayeMomi*
their six unfortunate children.

DH and I are waiting for the book that'll come out 20 years from now. You know, the one where the kids' admit to hating their parents and how they spent thousands in therapy as young adults.

Seriously though, I feel terrible for those children. Everytime I think about the "Whipping 4 month olds who climb stairs" story I just feel sick.

~Nay


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## lovemybaby

Some people are already speaking out about having been hit as babies, with "Christian" justification - read this letter - http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/Roy...penLetter.html

This woman was repeatedly traumatized, she learned to fear her parents and loathe their touch, her health and sexuality were impaired, and she suffers from PTSD. And she was forced to deny her emotions.

Quote: "This would be my greatest lesson: to be happy no matter how I felt inside. It would take me a few back-to-back spankings, but I would learn. It would be a lesson I'd learn for life--being falsely happy regardless of how my body felt."

The kind of treatment "Child Training Resources" is promoting, and making money from, is exactly what this woman went through and still suffers from! Could anything be more cruel, to mess up people's lives and make a profit from it???


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## BetsyNY

:

Wow, that's really evil. I'm going to pass this on to some friends. How horrible, and in Christ's name. Disgusting.


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## amyjeans

I just don't get it. After reading that disturbing letter about the woman's life after her training- it doesn't make sense to hurt a child like that. Children that young are learning from every aspect- its their formative years. They will suffer in the future.
I was spanked by my dad, with a belt, and had broken skin sometimes from the beatings.
After the beatings, I still would make mistakes- because I was a kid. And did I fear my father!!! The boogie man was a better companion than him. My fear turned into hate when I got older.
Its a shame people think this doesn't harm a kid.


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## lovemybaby

To Amyjeans, that is so sad how your father treated you, no wonder you feared him, and now hate him! Hitting a child does NOTHING to improve a parent's relationship with their child. It often ruins it. I fear and loathe my father too, because of his sadistic hitting and verbal abuse.

BTW there is another online petition against these baby-whipping devices, at http://www.stoptherod.net/

Please sign everyone! And







to all of you who have been hit by parents! It's a kind of suffering that is too often brushed off...yet it stays with us and affects us all our lives.


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## lovemybaby

Thought I'd check in...did anyone hear back from the FTC or Oprah or anybody?


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## lesley&grace

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
Thought I'd check in...did anyone hear back from the FTC or Oprah or anybody?

Unfortunately for me the only person who has responded to my e-mails was the sadist who sells the device. Some of the forms I cannot fill out because I am in Canada, but I did pass around the petition links and got friends and family to sign.


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## Annikate

Nothing here. Any other ideas?


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## AntoninBeGonin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
Thought I'd check in...did anyone hear back from the FTC or Oprah or anybody?


I filled out an online form for the Consumer Product Safety Commission. A few days later I recieved my form in the mail with the instructions to read over it and mail it back when I was certain it was correct. That was at least a month ago. I haven't heard anything since then.

~Nay


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## Tofu the Geek

Okay, this disgusts me

Quote:

Note to parenting class leaders: We offer a free chastening instrument to leaders of child training classes with 15 or more people. Why? Because our experience has been that once people see and use these chastening tools, they will love them.
Can you imagine showing up to a parenting class and the teacher whips out a bright, blue ruler and then asks for one of your children for which to demonstrate its use???







:


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## AntoninBeGonin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola*
Okay, this disgusts me Can you imagine showing up to a parenting class and the teacher whips out a bright, blue ruler and then asks for one of your children for which to demonstrate its use???







:


The very thought makes my stomach churn with disgust.

I wish I could be in one of those classes so I could grab the instrument and break it against a wall. Grrrr....

~Nay


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## klg47

That website sounds sick!


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## homebirthing

http://www.parentingdecisions.com/childdiscipline/

Proverbs 13:24 NIV says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." According to author Crystal Lutton, "The word used for "rod" in these verses is shebet and means 'rod of authority.' It would have been one of three rods in the culture in question - a walking stick carried by the head of a family symbolizing his authority and sometimes offered in pledge; a shepherd's staff used to guide sheep and beat off attackers; a king's sceptre. Since we're talking about verses from Proverbs we're talking about verses written by a King and therefore most likely referring to a King's sceptre. In all three cases the rod of authority was never used to strike those under the person's authority but, instead, symbolized the authority that person had to discipline (teach) those under their authority. For someone to spare (or set aside) their authority to properly discipline their child would be for them to hate them."(1)

There are other interpretations on her website as well. I am proud to glorify God and pronounce Jesus as my saviour. And while I take offense at the tone of some of the women here, I still felt the need to put this out as an alternative to wacked out interpretation that icky child abuser has.


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## homebirthing

Proverbs 23:13,14 NIV says, "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." As commented by Crystal Lutton, "If this verse is instruction to strike a child with a stick then it's lying - because you can kill a child by hitting them with or without a 'rod'. In the original language the word you cite as 'punish' is actually 'beat' and is the same 'beat'as in 'the sun beat down on Jonah' and means a constant presence. The point is, the word 'beat' is not always used to refer to hitting. It is, however, appropriate to render its use in the verse in question as a constant, if not always pleasant, presence of authority. Tell a child 'no' and see how pleasant they think it is. We are instructed to be a constant presence of authority in our children's lives."(3)

Here is one other one.


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## ex-stasis

I'm not the most accurate Biblical scholar--so correct me if i'm wrong--but the quotes that people are pulling out in support of corporeal punishment are all from the Old Testament... right? If this is the case, this stuff doesn't really apply to Christians for the same reason that Christians don't keep kosher. Jesus is the Word, and therefore the Word for Christians is not what it says in the OT. So basically what we've got here is a business masquerading as Christian while not even following the basic tenets of Christianity. Nice.









Is there support for beating babies in the NT? i don't recall any... but maybe someone else knows better than I... ?


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## Monda

I love the variety of moms on this board. I like the interpretations of the bible. It is wonderful to be able to voice our views.

As usual, I fall in the middle here.


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## Nickarolaberry

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ex-stasis*
I'm not the most accurate Biblical scholar--so correct me if i'm wrong--but the quotes that people are pulling out in support of corporeal punishment are all from the Old Testament... right? If this is the case, this stuff doesn't really apply to Christians for the same reason that Christians don't keep kosher. Jesus is the Word, and therefore the Word for Christians is not what it says in the OT. So basically what we've got here is a business masquerading as Christian while not even following the basic tenets of Christianity. Nice.









Is there support for beating babies in the NT? i don't recall any... but maybe someone else knows better than I... ?

There isn't support for beating babies in the Torah/Bible either (what Christians call the Old Testament). Most of these quotes are taken out of context or mistranslated, or misunderstood. Regardless of why Christians don't keep kosher or other Torah laws, please don't make the mistake of assuming that the Torah/Bible condones or advocates beating children. Quite the opposite, in fact. If you read Lawrence Keleman's book "To Kindle a Flame" you will understand how AP the Torah is.


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## ex-stasis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *My3Kids'Mama*
There isn't support for beating babies in the Torah/Bible either (what Christians call the Old Testament). Most of these quotes are taken out of context or mistranslated, or misunderstood. Regardless of why Christians don't keep kosher or other Torah laws, please don't make the mistake of assuming that the Torah/Bible condones or advocates beating children. Quite the opposite, in fact. If you read Lawrence Keleman's book "To Kindle a Flame" you will understand how AP the Torah is.

Thanks for filling me in.


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## lesley&grace

From my own experience with religion and the bible, I understand it to mean that God wants us to be healthy, happy and good to each other. There are so many twisted and perverted versions of that message and people who decide how to become healthy, happy and good to each other (or just good to those who they decide are worthy), is there any wonder people have moved away from those teachings? It's just very frustrating.


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## LambQueen

That is so so so so so so sad.

here's the letter I just wrote:

Dear Mr. Haymond:

I have just become aware of your product line through other concerned parents. It is a sad and unfortunate reality that you stand behind such products. While we live in a free country, corporal punishment is a sad excuse for child abuse.

There is no such thing as training babies by hitting.

As an Orthodox Jew, I relate to the desire to uphold religious principles. Thank G-d, hitting children is one that is not part of my world. You should reconsider the types of products you are selling because they are a terrible thing to exist in our world.


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## bravofrenchie

This whole thing just makes me want to uke For anyone who wants to see how awful the Pearls are, visit their website and look through their magazine archives. www.nogreaterjoy.org

I think this right here takes the cake, over everything else. This was their answer to a woman who wanted out of an abusive marriage:

Quote:

If you or your children have been hit (other than the children being spanked) so as to leave discernable marks two hours later, and you genuinely fear that he will repeat his battering, you can take legal steps without divorcing your husband. In a moment when he is not angry, calmly inform him that the next time he physically assaults you or the kids, you are going to call the law and have him arrested. You must first resolve in your heart that you are willing to prosecute him and see him go to jail.

But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn't repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil's face. God hates divorce-always, forever, regardless, without exception.


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## amyjeans

I cannot get over how they interpret God's word. It is not subjective in any way and they do as they wish with the Word.
These people are truly _NOT_ Godly.


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## 3ncountin

We are very conservative Christians and this is what the New Testament says about children ,"And ye fathers provoke not your wrath but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord " to us that is the exact opposite of beating our children. Some people just need to get over it and realise that if you want to call yourself a christian then follow Christ and treat your precious babies like He would treat people ,never heard of Him beating anybody with a rod just because they did something wrong did you?


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## bamamom

That article just makes me want to gag


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## DebraBaker

So, according to the Pearls, if the husband learns how to hit his wife and/or children without leaving marks two hours later there is no recourse.

Debra Baker


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## Overproducktion

I am sick!

I'm going to put the link on my blog and contact the local new stations. Maybe they would do an investigation on it. How sad.


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## DebraBaker

It's a larger scale version of looking away.

Come on, folks, if you avert your gaze you still know what's going on.

Is it really more important to be polite to child abusers?

DB


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## fiveredhens

I have signed the petitions, gone on Amazon to rate the books negatively, and also contacted the Kern Count Child Support Services. They gave me the name and number for the DA and I just left a message with their special cases prosecuter.

I am a grad student finishing my degree in child clinical psychology ( as well as a mom to a 17-mo DS). My professional standing requires that I am a mandated court reporter of child abuse or neglect in CT, the state where I live and study. You can see how CT defines child abuse at the following site:

http://www.state.ct.us/dcf/new_definitions.htm

While hitting with an object does not come under "physical abuse" (sick, I know), the measures described in the webiste do meet criteria for emotional abuse, see cruel or unusual actions:

"Description/Examples: Emotional Abuse or Maltreatment

Emotional abuse or maltreatment is the result of cruel or unconscionable acts and/or statements made, threatened to be made, or allowed to be made by the person responsible for the child's care that have a direct effect on the child.

The observable and substantial impairment of the child's psychological, cognitive, emotional and/or social well-being and functioning must be related to the behavior of the person responsible for the child's care.

Emotional abuse or maltreatment may result from:

repeated negative acts or statements directed at the child
exposure to repeated violent, brutal, or intimidating acts or statements among members of the household
cruel or unusual actions used in the attempt to gain submission, enforce maximum control, or to modify the child's behavior
rejection of the child."

Here is another great resource for understanding the laws around this:

http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/mandatory_reporting.htm

I have called Childhelp USA and they said there is nothing they can do if no specific child has been harmed. I am hopeful that the DA in Bakersfield can do something. I will also call the webhosting agency, as that might be the best way to shut this down. Let's keep at this and see what we can do. This is just sick and a gross misinterpretation of the Bible.


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## fiveredhens

The DA from Kern County called me back yesterday and was interested in the case. She was going to contact law enforcement and see if this is a criminal case. She said she did not think it would be a chargable offense, but it was still nice to be heard. She strongly suggested playing up the product safety route. DH found the following link about a similar case.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/160/story_16021_2.html

The DA said she would contact me one way or the other, so I will post when I hear back from her.


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## Monda

Is corporal punishment against the law? My understanding is that it is not. Of course there are guidelines about what is legal and not, (I would have to look those up)... I guess what I am saying is, if it is not against the law, then a case against the company might not be the way to go. If the laws need changing maybe that is the area to focus on. Just my opinion.









Edited to list some info on corporal punishment. I have found some detailed info on the ban of CP in public schools (thank goodness for that) but am having trouble finding the actual laws regarding parents and children (out side of abuse rules).

http://www.stophitting.com/disatscho...l%20Punishment


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## Tinas3muskateers

They just made it against the law in PA ... Thank goodness, took long enough. I remember as a kid getting paddled in class on more the on occasion.


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## lovemybaby

Hi everyone, the sad fact is that it's not against the law to sell these torture devices for use on children. However, when it comes to whipping infants with objects it is generally thought to qualify as child abuse, if it goes to court. People using the Pearl's baby-whipping advice have gotten in trouble with the law, for instance.

So, there's a "loophole" regarding selling these devices, and selling books advising parents to whip babies. "Free speech" and all.

It would be great to have a law against selling these things specifically for use on babies. It's been tried, see http://www.stoptherod.net/supporting-legislators.html So far, not a single Republican will cosponsor the bill! And Rep. Markey says it will never work if no Republicans will cosponsor, 'cause they control all the committees etc.

The US Consumer Product Safety Commission SHOULD recall/ban these things, but for reasons unexplained, they just won't. See http://www.nospank.net/n-n84r.htm

The makers of "The Rod" finally quit because of all the negative publicity. Since the republicans and CPSC won't help, but nearly everyone agrees it's wrong to advertise & sell these things, public pressure is the way to go.

I'll call the DA tomorrow, that's a good idea! Also, you can email Mayor Hall of Bakersfield, at [email protected] and ask him to pressure "Child Training Resources" to shut down. And you can ask the local radio station at [email protected] and the local newspaper at
[email protected] to cover the story of the baby-whipping business. Publicity in a case like this will help generate more public scrutiny. These kinds of sleazy businesses thrive on secrecy.

Also, it's good to write "Child Training Resources" directly, to keep the pressure on: [email protected]


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## lovemybaby

An article just came out about this baby-whipping business! See http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=4286817&nav=9qrx


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## Sherra

Quote:

She is encouraging people to send protest letters to the mayor's office as well as banks and businesses associated with Child Training Resources.
Looks like this is what needs to be done.

This isn't just a Republican issue..cough...this has been "training" children for decades...even under democrat control. It gets complicated politically so you will be hard pressed to find any political figure to *campaign* on this anyway unless the public gets angry about it.

What I did for a protest is I went and rated badly all the pearl based books in amazon.com ...that way newby parents won't be tempted to go with it if they see bad ratings.


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## suprgrl

:










































uke Although it will most likely fall on deaf ears and blind eyes, I sent the following email to the address listed on the site selling these horrible instruments. Iam prepared with Biblical arguments should he attempt the form letter or any other letter trying to make a point using grossly misinterpreted Bible verses.

"I am disgusted by the fact that you advocate the use of such a tool, especially in that you claim that it is Biblically sanctioned! How horrible to attempt to bring children to Christ through fear and physical harm. Nothing that I read in the Bible condones such a thing. Christ, the Good Shepherd, uses His rod and staff to guide and comfort us (Psalm 23). In no way can I picture such a loving Character hitting His beloved sheep when they stray from the flock. On the contrary we are told that He searches for even one lost sheep that is found, rejoicing and showing unconditional love to the sheep. Yes, if you spare the rod of love, direction, forgiveness, and affection from a child he will become spoiled. The shepherds rod is never used to inflict pain. The sheep know His voice and follow Him. The Bible never mentions the sheep being hit into submission."

Ronna


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## lesley&grace

I wish you luck with your letter, but I hope you are prepared for being ignored. The form letter you'll get back will basically accuse you of not knowing Chirst or having Him in your life, and any response you send back will most likely go unanswered.

Perhaps I am just feeling particularly jaded this evening (winter blahs combined with my cycle in full swing...round and round go the horomones!), but I really feel that all we have done has just been so ineffective. And if the US gov't doesn't want to get involved to shut them down...is there any hope? People who want to use these tools and training resources are only going to see our opposition as fuel for their righteousness and the manipulaters and perverters of God's word who lead them will draw strength from it.

I too went to amazon and also Chapters to rate the books poorly, but I am not sure that the Pearle's followers are going to be shopping there.


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## Attached Mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
"Take the child to a private place. Tell the child how many swats he will receive. Remove his drawers so that the spanking is not lost in the padding of his pants. Lay the child across your lap rather than over a bed or a chair. This puts the spanking in the context of your physical relationship. After you have spanked, take the child up on your lap and hug him, telling him how much you love him."]

Sounds pretty much exactly like how I was raised. Only I was never told how many swats I'd receive and they just kept getting increased because I was wiggling. I sure was trying to hold still. What kind of sane child decides to wiggle knowing it will get them more?? But dang it hurt so much! Then if I couldn't hold still my mom would have to wrestle me to the floor and sit on me in order to spank me. Considering I was a tiny child this was terrifying because I could hardly breathe. Oh, and once I got older I didn't get my pants pulled down anymore. As for beginning at 8 months old - yup - sounds about right. And yes, it does leave welts on the bottom. Sometimes it is sore to sit afterwards too.

Thank God for Mothering because it was this magazine that made me rethink how I was raised. And I'm happy to say our 6 mo old DD will *never* be spanked.

I am a Christian - but as PP have said, this is NOT Biblical. The rod was meant as a rod of authority - a symbol of a parent's authority in a child's life and those verses have to be kept in context of the rest of the Bible which talks about how being in authority means to serve others etc

I do have a good relationship with my mom and I"m not sure she believes in spanking anymore, but it is still terrifying sometimes to think back on how I was raised. It was not uncommon to get spanked multiple times in one day or even to be spanked for forgetting soemthing at school etc. That was the method of training in our house. And it was terrifying to watch my baby sister screaming from being spanked too. I vividly remember one time getting so mad at my mom and yelling at her to stop.

Well, baby is crying so gotta go...


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## lovemybaby

A republican has been found to cosponsor a bill against these baby-whipping devices! Ask your US Rep. to co-sponsor the bill too: http://www.stoptherod.net/supporting-legislators.html

More articles on the baby-whipping business in the news: http://www.stoptherod.net/news-stories.html

Also, Barnes & Noble has removed the 4 baby-whipping books that Child Training Resources sells, from the Barnes & Noble website!


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## lesley&grace

Attached Mama said:


> Sounds pretty much exactly like how I was raised. QUOTE]
> 
> Bless you for coming through this and seeing that it is not the way to raise a child. My heart goes out to the child you were, and your sister as well. I'm sure your mother did the best she knew how with the resources she was given, as my mother did (not that she hit me out of any effort of training, she merely had a temper and not a lot of control. It's my mother's legacy that I struggle with my own temper and I am proud to say I have never, and never will, hit my children.) I also have a good relationship with my mother now, as I saw her see the error of her ways and raise my much younger brothers very differently. It takes more than most can understand to forgive a parent...and I am happy that you seem to have done this and are taking what you have learned and applying it to your child. Lots of love and peace to you.


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## DebraBaker

I was also beaten as a child but it was accepted then and certainly not tied into my mother's faith.

I went through the conservative church movement and was exposed to it that way.

My mother now knows how wrong it was to hit me with a belt (or anything else for that matter.) She says she understands in her head (major accomplishment!) but doesn't know how she would be able to raise kids today because she was beaten as a child and it was all she knew. It would be what would come naturally in a stressful situation.

I have my shortcomings and they tend to revolve around my temper. I still yell but much less than before. I am trying to break a familial cycle so my children won't need to do this hard work.

Debra Baker


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## corwinegall

I had a discussion with a woman I know about how she spanks her child with a spoon because Jesus would never slap you in the face with his bare hands. The Jesus I understand (agnostic Christian) wouldn't slap you to begin with. It's sad.


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## 3for3hb

Yep, my MOTHER has those books! And tried to pass them off on me!!!
'nuff said... can you guess how I was raised?


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## MysticMoon

Sorry to butt in, I noticed the site is still up & with the same hosting company, though the company changed url's it's still the same one.

What you can do, since going through their host didn't work, is go above their host straight to the datcenter (the place that owns the server & leases it to the host company).

That company's hosting server is through theplanet.com which is normally pretty strict & good about taking down things that violate thier AUP's for leased servers.


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## guest^

I called the #and told him how Mary would *NEVER* TREAT JESUS LIKE THAT.

God Bless the Psychiatrist who treats this **blip** children.









































































mp

Edited to tone down my temper.


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## APmomtoWAandKL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetest*
Wow. That is pure evil









Where is Bakersfield? Do you think the local newspapers would run a story about this? Or would that rally the "believers"?

I just dont know how to argue with people who think Jesus is on thier side










Bakersfield is about 2hrs outside L.A. in Cali.
Unfortunantly, I think more people would be behind this horrable site that against it. Things here are not very crunch.

ON a side note I feel the need to say that my God is one of love and forgivness. He is there every time I mess up, not with a whip, but with love understanding and sometimes firm guidance. I do not belive that whipping my child with a sliver of plastic is the same firm guidance that God has in mind. I agree that disipline is needed with children, but why can this site not offer ideas from love rather than a desire to rule?
Reading about this makes me sick. I am litterally in tears over this. We have one of the worst CPS around, why in the world are they not doing something over this???
SUSAN


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## mamarhu

Do these people live in the same universe I do?


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## greenwoman2006

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
Hi everyone,

There is a business in California that sells ONLY books about whipping babies and devices to do it with. They say their device "leaves the right amount of sting" and they claim that using this thing is "loving" and "produces warriors for Christ!"

They include "Basic Tips on Chastisement" with their device, which says: "Carry out chastisement immediately upon the first disobedience or rebellion" and "Don't allow squirming or screaming during chastisement" and "Give enough strokes to obtain obedience and a submitted will".

One of the books they sell is "To Train Up a Child" which is about whipping infants and children on their bare skin, for crying and for "disobedience". One of the other books they sell says it's OK to leave "stripes" ie, bruises and welts. You can see their torture merchandise at http://www.biblicalchildtraining.com/order.htm Is this sick or what????

Please speak out! You can complain to them directly at [email protected]

You can also report them to the Consumer Product Safety Commission at [email protected]


What a bunch of sickos! I am going to email this link to everyone I know and the email address that you provided, and we need to shut these freaks down. Period! I mean, what the #*&$?!! Grrrrrr. I may get flack for saying this, but this is exactly the result of our new fundamentalist government. These are books for sale encouraging child abuse, which I am pretty sure is...uh....ILLEGAL! Besides of course being immoral and just heinous and unacceptable.

Thank you for posting this!


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## greenwoman2006

I emailed this so-called business the following message,

Hello.

I would just like to say that I have never, ever seen
a website more deviant and more evil than yours. You
people are sick. You are encouraging child abuse,
which is illegal, immoral, and I am pretty sure that
Jesus would not approve.

You must really get your jollies out of this or
something.

I will be reporting you to the Consumer Product Safety
Commission, as well as any other organization that I
can think of to get you shut down.


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## FuelJetA

While this group of child abusers makes me VERY angry, I really hold out little hope for the government of this 'great' country stepping in and taking action to alleviate this obvious problem. Call me crazy, but I just don't see this going anywhere b/c mainstream America spanks their kids. Young kids. It's ok to spank your 2 YO in public, but god forbid you nurse her! This country is backwards in some serious ways. Like all of you, this product made me physically feel ill and on the verge of crying for all those poor babies and I really thought and thought and couldn't come up with a good way to fix this problem...
Until now!

This may sound strange but someone needs to bring this product publicly to the straight and especially gay BDSM communities and make known the supplier. BDSM websites need to pick up this product and sell it as their own. Each time an order is placed for one of these devices, the order form needs to read "Homosexual Bondage and Discipline Pleasure Emporium" and have a website address with a hardcore porn store/adult discipline site.

I understand that selling these would be supporting the 'cause' but how would they feel about this? The new buyers could order in bulk and ask that something be emblazened on the nasty little device to purport it's intended purpose. Spanking adults bottoms who have been "naughty" by printing the website or such on them.

I know this would take a huge effort, but I wonder what impression that would would make on such a fanatically religious group? (Read: battle the extreme Religious Right with the extreme Liberal Left!)

Just a thought, and a muse.

On with the Activism! DW and I both signed all available petitions too!

PS....It just occurred to me that you could change this product a tiny bit and possibly get a patent on it. The seller has no 'patent pending' info, thus, one could patent it and sue them for infringement. Also, just a thought. I figure if Paris Hilton can copyright 'That's Hot' this is certainly not out of the question.


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