# Waldorf and extended nursing...



## nancg (Mar 1, 2002)

We are looking into a Waldorf preschool for my younger DD, 2 mornings a week, next year. The one thing I am a bit bothered about it is the Waldorf/Steiner stance on nursing - which seems to be to encourage weaning at 6-12 months. I have two friends with kids at this school who have been mildly "scolded" for nursing their toddlers by the teacher. I like the teacher's manner with the children, I like the environment, but I just am trying to think through good answers.

I think this is amusing in some ways that I am worried about defending nursing my youngest DD (19 months) when I still haven't weaned my oldest DD (4.5)!

One of the moms there did answer the teacher well - something to the effect of "Well, there are many authorities on breastfeeding who differ from Steiner on that stance." Any other ideas would be appreciated!

Nancy
mom to nurslings Emily (4.5) and Hazel (1.5)


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I would tell them it's not open for discussion. Steiner was a) a man b) who wasn't a doctor as far as I know and c) died years and years ago. The studies that have been done showing breastfeeding past a year is healthy and desirable could sink a battleship. As far as I would be concerned, his teachings on breastfeeding would be worthless if he advocates early weaning.

It is really discouraging to hear this. Sounds like Waldorf needs some serious education on the benefits of normal breastfeeding i.e. past age 1!


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## puddinnpeanut (Jan 22, 2002)

Sorry no information on this issue, however I am surprised at this, especially since Mothering has featured several articles about Waldorf education! I am tandem nursing as well my 3 year old and 16 1/2 month old! I just came from the education forum which directed me to some upsetting links about Waldorf education! I am now very confused about this seemingly nurturing environment! I am going to an open house next week for a new Waldorf school and will definitely ask their opinion/positon on nursing! Sorry I can't shed much light about your question, but very glad I saw your post so I can become more informed! Thanks and I will let you know what I find out!


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## Love my 2 (Feb 14, 2003)

From what I've read about Waldorf, this surprises me. Perhaps it's just one particular instructor? Or is t the school's philosophy? I'm bummed to hear that. I was goign to do some reearch into Waldof schools in the area.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I think this TEACHER should be "scolded" for such ignorance!

The posts in the Extended Breastfeeding archives have lots of quotable quotes, policy statements supporting toddler nursing from major medical associations, etc.


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## puppytails (Feb 7, 2002)

I've been wanting to get my teacher certification for YEARS--so I've done a lot of reading and I've never heard this one. Maybe it's that particular teacher that has issues. Many of the parents I know that use Waldorf have extended nursing kids. When I visited Sunbridge College (teaching training in NY) there were MANY nursing toddlers... I guess I've always seen Waldorf and AP as being hand-in-hand as far as their views of children.


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

the philosophy behind waldorf education- anthroposophy- is prevalent in waldorf teachers' training, but is not an aspect of the school day itself. so. don't let the philosophy interfere too much with your exploration of waldorf education.
anthroposophy strongly focuses on making clear the individual/collective journey of mankind- and weaning is a part of the child's journey to standing upright and a step towards taking nourishment from the heavens rather than directly from the mother.
In You Are Your Child's First Teacher, by Rahima Baldwin Dancy, she does not exactly support baby-led weaning, but encouranges us as parents to truly listen to ourselves and our child, be aware of our relationship, and what feels right.
My little gal received her only nourishment from my breast for 8 months... started solids then, and by 13 months she was done with bf'ing. i felt her independence growing and her capacity to receive nourishment from other sources growing, and i connected with that and strengthened her in that journey- it really felt like a natural, but conscious weaning.
hope i was of some help in your ponderings-


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Even in the crunchy town where I live, where toddler nursing is *very* common, I know of several moms who were "gently scolded" by Waldorf teachers for nursing their toddlers. This (among many other things) turned me off of Waldorf education. It supposedly so nurturing, yet with very rigid ideals underneath.


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

It is true that Steiner did recommend weaning by 9 months. Our local LLL leader sends both of her girls to Waldorf, and she warned me about this before my son started preschool there.
Her advice was to take the good and forget the rest. There are so many great things about Waldorf, especially for preschoolers, that I was ok with this.
Breastfeeding never actually came up...it probably never occured to my son's teacher that he was still nursing at age 3. It is so rare over here!


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

anthropsophical physicians apparantly believe in the 6-12 month weaning as well. Waldorf, seemingly, is of two minds...one that feels Steiner is the inspiration for Waldorf, and ones who believe everything he said (even the contradictory stuff) is absolute authority. Try to find the former and ignore the latter. If Waldorf is to thrive, it has to adapt.


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

yes, steiner recommended weaning by nine months... but in other centres, waldorf educators have found that the modern mother, listening to her child, and attempting to achieve a conscious weaning, finds it naturally occuring at 12-13 months. i found that to be true for myself. but the point here is that waldorf education does go with the times but strives to maintain conscious guidance of the child's journey to being.
i know an anthroposophical physician who nursed her child for three years.... the main impetus behind waldorf education is to live consciously and to the fullest, integrating body, mind, and spirit. there's no need to get caught up in small details. do what feels true to ourselves and be conscious of the search for truth.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

i have heard / known this about waldorf for awhile, and it completely deters me from utilizing waldorf education. even if they amended the view to 12-13 months, my goodness. that is totally out of line with the normal age of weaning in human children.

tabitha


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## abigailvr (May 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lou_
*but in other centres, waldorf educators have found that the modern mother, listening to her child, and attempting to achieve a conscious weaning, finds it naturally occuring at 12-13 months.*
I am mildy disturbed by the implication that those of us nursing past 12-13 months are not listening to our children or concious that they have a desire to wean. My son was not even regularly eating solids at that age.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

yeah, it's one of the things that turns me off too. i love so much about the school nearby, but the bfing info is way off, & people who don't know any better giving weaning advice is one of my biggest pissoffs. (i have to say i am astounded when i hear of kids self-weaning relatively early- my 3 yr old is nowhere near done, and the 18 m old is not even up for discussion. whatever would i have done during the last rotavirus bout? prolly what a nurse i just talked to did, take the kids to the dr daily for a week to check for dehydration.) how is it that 3 for 3, my kids are glued to the breast for years at a time? believe me, i'm not pushing it; i'm getting a bit tired. but

sorry, lost my train of thought and baby hit 'reply'. i was going somewhere with that! the demandos require attention.

suse


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Not wanting to add any more confusing info, but would like to add that i have a son in waldorf k and a daughter who is most-likely going to the nursery waldorf next yr. I heard some time ago that there was this issue since Steiner had specific beliefs regarding early weaning (6-12 mo) and this momentarily alarmed me. already experiencing the schools philosophy, some of which is a bit "strange" or "backwards" , and knowing as someone earlier said to take the good and leave the rest, i thought i would deal with it when and if it came up.
This was under the understanding that much of what transpires in an individual class is up to the teacher and his/her stance on anthroposophy and Steiners views.
Then, it came to my attention earlier this winter that the issue of bfing came up w/ another parent the previous yr and said parent strongly and firmly let the teacher know that she would continue to mother her child the way she was intentionally doing (aping)
I think that the teacher Was put off a bit but when she saw that the childs readiness and social skills were on target and beyond she may have eased up on that stance.
Im going to meet this teacher next wk w/ my still nursing 3 yr. old and I will not shy away from the subject. as was said, Waldorf must adapt. This is apparent.
Laura


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## mimmy (Feb 6, 2002)

I'm still not convinced that Steiner ever said anything specific about weaning; I have asked many people and no-one I have asked has been able to come up with a specific quote. What I am sure he did speak about was encouraging a child's spiritual/physical independence early - to throw off inherited forces and develop their own - which is one of the key tasks of the first seven years. Therefore, as I understand it (I could be wrong, won't be the first time







) that it has been interpreted that early weaning encourages this process - therefore it became the official stance. I personally think that it is important to follow your instincts on what is good for you and your child and to be aware of the influences that nursing has on your child (positive and negative) and wean when you feel is right. BTW, my DH is a Waldorf teacher and we are just now weaning our almost 4 yr old ds. Don't give up on Waldorf because of the dogmatists. As another poster already said, Anthroposophy is about developing conscious thinking/living - be aware and do what is right for you and your family.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

but in other centres, waldorf educators have found that the modern mother, listening to her child, and attempting to achieve a conscious weaning, finds it naturally occuring at 12-13 months. *i found that to be true for myself.*
I did not. Many other moms here at MDC also did not.

I also know some one year olds who happily weaned themselves, but that in no way means that all children can or should do that.

The World Health Organization and the American Academy of Family Physicians both recommend a minimum of two years of nursing. Canadian pediatrician and UNICEF consultant Dr. Jack Newman, in Scientific American magazine, recommended nursing for years (not months) because the human immune system is not completely developed until about age five. American anthropologist and nutritionist, Professor Katherine Dettwyler, says that the natural age of weaning for humans is about two and a half to seven years, based on several different biological markers.

References:
http://www.who.int/child-adolescent-..._exclusive.htm
http://www.aafp.org/x6633.xml
http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/29.html
http://www.prairienet.org/laleche/detwean.html


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

That is really, really, really, really weird that a Waldorf teacher scolded someone for extended bf. I know that my and dd's parent-child teacher, who is now dd's home-based Waldorf preschool teacher, has said that if preschool age children are attending all-day programs, it is sometimes very difficult for them if they are still nursing because they miss the breast during the day. But nearly all the moms at Waldorf extended breastfeed, from what I saw







I know Steiner said that they should be weaned at around six months, but that's pretty much been ignored for the past twenty years or so.







:


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Well as for me, the only Waldorf parent I know is a LLL leader so this whole thread sure surprised me!

:LOL

Aren't Waldorf schools the ones who sell really cool art supplies?


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

dd's parent-child teacher, who is now dd's home-based Waldorf preschool teacher, has said that if preschool age children are attending all-day programs, it is sometimes very difficult for them if they are still nursing because they miss the breast during the day.
Is this person speaking from experience or making assumptions out of ignorance that 3 & 4 year olds' nursing patterns are nothing like babies' nursing patterns? Both our children spent the night away from me, or spent entire days with local grandma without needing to nurse. They knew they'd be able to when we were together again and it was a nonissue.

I like the idea of Waldorf and Montessori, but there aren't any such schools near enough to us, nor could we afford it if there were.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

A local montessori school here insists on weaning. I asked them why they cared what happened at home, and they said some lame thing about independence. My just over 2 yo is more independent than the just turned 3yo in her preschool parent-child class and we're the only ones nursing. A Monstessori teacher pretty much confirmed that they create policies like that when they have a kid who can't separate well, and isn't very independent and nurses...they assume the nursing must be the cause and weaning the answer. Like the same child, weaned, wouldn't have the same anxieties? Or they assume a mom who hasn't weaned yet will have separation issues of her own. Nonsense. Not any more than they run into psycho moms who already weaned.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lou_
*yes, steiner recommended weaning by nine months... but in other centres, waldorf educators have found that the modern mother, listening to her child, and attempting to achieve a conscious weaning, finds it naturally occuring at 12-13 months.*
Well, in primates weaning occurs at chemical onset of puberty. In humans this is age 5-10 depending on the child. The average age of weaning world wide is four. The average is skewed by those who wean at 3 weeks in the US and UK. And probably Australia and a lot of Europe.

My definition of self weaning if different than some people's, but to me, self weaning means you let your child nurse whenever they want and don't give other milk/nipples to them or encourage them to taper down their nursing, only allow them to do so at their own pace. I think that whether or not it is conscious on the part of the parents, babies who "self-wean" at 12-13 months were encouraged to wean. Just because one doesn't refuse to nurse a child doesn't really mean they are self weaning.

My dd is 15 months and probably nurses more now than 6 months ago. She only recently began eating solids for food, before she only played with them. There is absolutely no way she is CLOSE to ready to wean. I was forcibly weaned at almost 3 and I wasn't ready to wean. I needed the milk and the love and the pacification.

No as for Waldorf, I think it really depends on the teachers. Maybe you should ask to speak with the teacher beforehand about nursing. She has no place to scold anyone. I think if she is presented with information on why you aren't weaning, that she will be more respectful of you and others. You might mention that you had heard she has said something, then she will realize it was innappropriate for her to do so. If you are able to get the benefits of Waldorf and prevent the bad, then it's worth it. I'm pretty touchy about people encuraging me to wean, so if I got that vibe for a nanosecond I'd be howling bloody murder!


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarity_
*A local montessori school here insists on weaning. I asked them why they cared what happened at home, and they said some lame thing about independence. My just over 2 yo is more independent than the just turned 3yo in her preschool parent-child class and we're the only ones nursing. A Monstessori teacher pretty much confirmed that they create policies like that when they have a kid who can't separate well, and isn't very independent and nurses...they assume the nursing must be the cause and weaning the answer. Like the same child, weaned, wouldn't have the same anxieties? Or they assume a mom who hasn't weaned yet will have separation issues of her own. Nonsense. Not any more than they run into psycho moms who already weaned.*
I think it is so sad that good, alternative education is so insistent on "independence." Why do we need to make kids so independent anyway? yk? It seems like we should have gotten past this already. I need to start my own schools.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

I have started thinking the same thing! I think my idea of what constitutes healthy, age appropriate independence and theirs is very different.


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

I also think it's ridiculous to assume that breastfeeding promotes dependence. I can see why someone would say that a toddler who wants to nurse is dependent, but I disagree. I believe that by giving kids what they need, and the closeness and nurturing they deserve, they end up to be far more independent in the end.

I am in a mother's group that started as a breastfeeding support group, so the majority of us breastfed our kids. I'm the only one still nursing my only 3 year old, and she's definitely more one the more independent children in the group. She's outgoing, funny, not shy, not afraid to try new things, etc.,.

To me, it's obvious that to force a child to wean before they are ready, could easily cause clinginess, dependence, shyness, etc.,. For a school (and esp. a Waldorf school which I always hold on a pedestal in my mind) to decide that a child should or worse, HAS to wean, is outrageous and none of their business in the first place.

I had always planned on sending my kids to the local Waldorf school, but will definitely do some investigating.

Take care,


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

My dd's teacher has been a Waldorf children's garden teacher for 25 years. She said she does notice a bit more whiny/clingy/dependency issues in some of the nursing 4 and 5 year olds.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
*I think it is so sad that good, alternative education is so insistent on "independence." Why do we need to make kids so independent anyway? yk? It seems like we should have gotten past this already. I need to start my own schools.*
The issue of independence goes so far back, Think Revolutionary war-how this country was started. It became clear to me early in mothering that this was one of the prime culprits going against what we understand as intuiting-needs and aping. we need to understand that the thread goes very deep for a lot of people.
What im trying to say is that When one teacher has been teaching for some times (20 yrs or so) the very ingrained ideas of weaning havent been changed due to in part lack of willingness to address the subject.
Waldorf education is very old and in many cases very dogmatic, but just as any system of education is not perfect and could use some changing, so does this system. I think we are blowing this issue out of proportion. No-one has written the criteria for entering nursery at waldorf to include "must be weaned"
right?????
Laura


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

My dd's teacher has been a Waldorf children's garden teacher for 25 years. She said she does notice a bit more whiny/clingy/dependency issues in some of the nursing 4 and 5 year olds.
Since nursing at age 4 and 5 is the norm worldwide for the human species, it sounds to me like this teacher may be either prejudiced against nursing children, or believes that a healthy attachment is "dependency." These are typical stereotypes in our culture but that doesn't make them true.

I had a formula fed child who was not ready to go to school, developmentally, until he was turning 6. I wouldn't blame the formula on that, so why should someone else blame the breastfeeding? He was securely attached to me and not yet ready to be away from me until that age, and when he WAS ready he had a blast and the teachers have all been complimenting him on how well he gets along with other kids.

Quote:

According to Sally Kneidel in "Nursing Beyond One Year" (New Beginnings, Vol. 6 No. 4, July-August 1990, pp. 99-103.):

"Research reports on the psychological aspects of nursing are scarce. One study that dealt specifically with babies nursed longer than a year showed a significant link between the duration of nursing and mothers' and teachers' ratings of social adjustment in six- to eight-year-old children (Ferguson et al, 1987). In the words of the researchers, 'There are statistically significant tendencies for conduct disorder scores to decline with increasing duration of breastfeeding.'"

According to Elizabeth N. Baldwin, Esq. in "Extended Breastfeeding and the Law":

"Breastfeeding is a warm and loving way to meet the needs of toddlers and young children. It not only perks them up and energizes them; it also soothes the frustrations, bumps and bruises, and daily stresses of early childhood. In addition, nursing past infancy helps little ones make a gradual transition to childhood."

Baldwin continues: "Meeting a child's dependency needs is the key to helping that child achieve independence. And children outgrow these needs according to their own unique timetable." Children who achieve independence at their own pace are more secure in that independence then children forced into independence prematurely.
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextende...ts.html#social


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

The general feeling I am getting from this thread is that Waldorf teachers are not understanding and sympathetic when normal, healthy children experience normal, healthy grief and sadness when separated from the mother they adore for the first time.

Are emotions seen as bad and unhealthy in the Waldorf system? Are strong feelings something the teachers are trained to help children through with compassion, or do teachers generally make judgements about children who express strong feelings?


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## mimmy (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtwice_
*The general feeling I am getting from this thread is that Waldorf teachers are not understanding and sympathetic when normal, healthy children experience normal, healthy grief and sadness when separated from the mother they adore for the first time.*
This is absolutely a wrong impression. I have 2 children in Waldorf school (11 and 3 yrs old) and my dh is a teacher. My children's teachers have always been sensitive and loving, as my dh is with his students. And, as I stated before my 3 yr old still "nurts" It has never been and issue.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtwice_
*Are emotions seen as bad and unhealthy in the Waldorf system? Are strong feelings something the teachers are trained to help children through with compassion, or do teachers generally make judgements about children who express strong feelings?*
Waldorf teachers are trained to be sensitive to different personality types. Emotions are quite encouraged in Waldorf. My youngest one is quite a firecracker and I feel that Waldorf is the safest place for him, the teachers work really well with him and his personality.

.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lauraess_
*The issue of independence goes so far back, Think Revolutionary war-how this country was started. It became clear to me early in mothering that this was one of the prime culprits going against what we understand as intuiting-needs and aping. we need to understand that the thread goes very deep for a lot of people.
What im trying to say is that When one teacher has been teaching for some times (20 yrs or so) the very ingrained ideas of weaning havent been changed due to in part lack of willingness to address the subject.
Waldorf education is very old and in many cases very dogmatic, but just as any system of education is not perfect and could use some changing, so does this system. I think we are blowing this issue out of proportion. No-one has written the criteria for entering nursery at waldorf to include "must be weaned"
right?????
Laura*
Oh I know a lot about the history of independence in this country, it was kind of rhetorical.

No one is saying Waldorf schools insist kids should be weaned, though I have actually heard of waldorf schools strongly recommending against enrollment from nursing preschoolers. The point of this thread is that the theory is there and therefore the likelihood of unequal treatment, and the outrageous act of scolding a parent for nursing a young toddler is unacceptable, and needs to be prevented.

You say msot education systems nbeed to be changed, well here is the thread where we can discuss that. So I don't think it's being blown out of proportion at all.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

there are some things about waldorf, that culturally, seem somewhat German. Not that suprising of course. (and I mean German, not Nazi, to be clear...) The indepence focus in my opinion is probably a legacy from its cultural roots.

As far as whiny, dependent children still nursing...so very few families nurse until age 4 or 5, I would not be suprised that many of them are slightly needier kids. The social pressure to wean earlier is so enormous that I think it's the rare mother and child that go longer...and perhaps more than a small portion have an emotional need that overwhelms that pressure. As we all nurse longer you'll see a lot more well-adjusted nursing children. We're a culture in transition right now.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Also, an independent 4 or 5 year old that wasn't clingy or whiny might not make it obvious they were still nursing and she might not know about it. Or is there a section in the reg forms about nursing?


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

that's an excellent point! Always suprising about how many "closet" nursers approach me...but most of them have much older children so I never got to see what their kids were like as preschoolers.

I do get the sense from my reading that the role of the waldorf teacher is to act as a parent. So that perspective makes this particular issue sort of interesting.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Well, she has never, from my understanding, told anyone that they should "stop". It's just an observation and a recommendation. No one would scold or penalize a mother for doing what she feels is best for her child.
I've been going to LLL meetings since before I had dd, and I, too, have noticed that, GENERALLY speaking, the older children that still nurse seem to be less social and more dependent on mom. Which is fine - different strokes for different folks. I don't think it's a crime or that it any way deters a mom who still wants to nurse at that age to point out simple observations. Who knows - maybe the child is still nursing because it's their personality type. Like which came first - the chicken or the egg


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:

but in other centres, waldorf educators have found that the modern mother, listening to her child, and attempting to achieve a conscious weaning, finds it naturally occuring at 12-13 months. i found that to be true for myself.
yea, i don't agree with this either...
but anyway.
i was really disappointed to read this about waldorf. that makes no sense. it's bad enough when you have preschools and childcare dictating potty training times, but now, nursing???!
i would really have a hard time paying over $5,000 a year (the tuition of our nearest waldorf school) for someone to tell me i need to ignore myself and my baby and wean. off topic, i dont like that they frown on reading prior to age 7 either. and the whole fairy and gnome thing is a little odd. but i could live with all that. this is just crap though. i will have to do some digging into this myself.

my dd is 18 mo, and is the most independant and secure little toddler i've ever been around. it's sad to see her with toddlers her own age, who have usually not had the benefits of being nursed, or ap parented. now those are some "whiney" and "clingy" kids. im told all the time how centered and focused and calm she is, how well she relates to other kids and people. she's not afraid to learn new things, take risks, or meet new people. hell, she loves people. (she does not get that from me. hah. )
she nurses when she wants. (between 6 and 8384756598x a day) and will keep on nursing until SHE decides she doesnt need to nurse anymore. whether that's 2 months or 2 years or whatever. nursing does not breed "clinginess". that's nuts.

as far as older nurslings being "clingy" or "dependant", these kids would be this way whether or not they nursed, and they'd prob be even more "needy" if they didnt have the soothing that nursing brings. my little sister was an extremely fragile, "clingy" child, up until she was about 12. my mama ended up homeschooling her because she was overwhelmed by school. it's too bad she wasnt breastfed, i'm sure it wouldve helped her anxiety.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I haven't found that to be true at my local LLL meetings. The oldest nursing child there returns to her mom for food and to ask permission for things and of course to nurse. She and the other older nursing children are quite independent in terms of playing and interacting with each other. I haven't found them to be more clingy or whiny than other kids I've known. I do find kids aged 4-5 to be whiny in general often times. Both sides are ancecdotal, but I have found the opposite to be true, IME>
L


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Erin - again, please don't let one weird lady turn you off of Waldorf! The anecdotes I've been sharing - and my dd's preschool teacher shared - were about 4, 5, and 6 year olds...... not toddlers! And again, I've been active in my AP community for nearly five years now, and I've never heard of a momma being scolded or turned away b/c she was still nursing. Like I said quite a few times already, it's merely a suggestion....... take it or leave it!
Oh, about the fairy/gnome thing.... it's just childhood imagination stuff. Kind of like Santa and The Tooth Fairy, ya know? They don't teach it as fact or anything. A lot of it is probably derived from nature spirits. Come to think of it, the only fairy/gnome stuff that is in dd's "class room" are a couple of little wooden gnome figurines....... they don't "teach" kids about them or anything


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

as far as older nurslings being "clingy" or "dependant", these kids would be this way whether or not they nursed, and they'd prob be even more "needy" if they didnt have the soothing that nursing brings.
I agree.

DH, by all accounts, was a bold boy from before he could walk, always out seeking adventure. It's a wonder I sometimes think that he survived childhood!:LOL He never got so much as a sip of humanmilk.









I was a fairly shy girl, very shy in Kindergarten, who still takes a bit of time to open up (in RL), though it's gotten easier for me over the years. I was weaned before I turned one.

Our DS at 13 is still a fairly shy boy who takes a bit of time to open up, but eventually does. He's been that way all along. He nursed until he was 5.

DD, almost 5, was very clingy and hesitant going into her preschool class for a large chunk of the year. This year she marches right in a barely looks back. She is nursing this year just as she was last (well less frequently, but stilll...).

Is the nursing to blame for the shyness? Then how do you explain my shyness as a non-nursing Kindergartener?

Is the nursing to credit for boldness? Then how do you explain DH's never having been nursed and never being a timid child?

I think too many teachers are using nursing as a scapegoat for a personality trait that they can't bring themselves to admit is NORMAL. And for an alternative school to refuse to admit little ones who still nurse:

Quote:

A local montessori school here insists on weaning. I asked them why they cared what happened at home, and they said some lame thing about independence.










Isn't that cutting off their nose to spite their face? Do they think it's the formula feeding and/or Ezzo crowd bringing their children to these schools? I would think the last population they'd want to cut off or offend would be the AP and natural parenting families who seem to me to be the backbone of their business.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

They're a small AMI school, but I was totally shocked.

http://www.patuxent-montessori.org/page6.html

Notice 18 mo most be "completely weaned".

I called to inquire, and started a discussion, but cut it off, and thanked them for being honest, it made it easier to see that their school would not be suitable for me or my child. It is a shame, because I think our family would be an asset, volunteer-wise, to any independent school, and I'm not the sort of person that expects a school to change everything to suit me. I'd leave instead. They cited some sort of book on child development (not by maria montessori) that they use...


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Call me crazy, but how on earth could they "require" you to completely wean? It's not like it's something they can check.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

yeah, that's why I called to ask "why the heck do you care what happens at home if they can can go through the school day without."


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

having known about the waldorf/ ebf conflict (whether solid or not...) for a while i have given it a lot of thought. we will homeschool but i have thgouht of waldorf as an alternative if ds wishes to go to real school- not that we can afford it, but hey. so i have done some soul searching and talking with others and honestly, *it is a big deal to me.* i dont think i am blowing it out of proportion.

i have heard real life stories of preschoolers and their parents being discouraged from nursing, and real life accounts of babies and toddler's "dependence" being blamed on the parents and their parenting methods (by waldorf instructors) everything i have heard in real life tells me there is a real attitude within waldorf in the area that nursing kids are too clingy and that it is the mother's fault. i wont pay $$ to be surrounded by people so narrow minded. even if its just one person, i dont associate with people like that. andi dont want tristan's school experience to be clouded with my worries and me constantly being on guard for that.

i think there are tons of great things about waldorf education, but as easily as anyone can say "dont let one little thing/ person/ interpretation scare you away" , i can say nothing can make up for that flaw. it completely alters my perception of waldorf, that they would allow such narrow minded, judgemental, and completely incorrect people to take positions of authority in their system. even just one. and i know it isnt just one. what other strong, incorrect, and judgemental opinions thrive in waldorf? if this opinion , on EBF, exists throughout the nation, and seems so contrary to the image waldorf projects, what else is there?

i am not trying to villify waldorf, i am just explaining how , after much thought, i see that waldorf is a better alternative than public school, but i wont settle for the lesser of two flawed systems for my son. we'll just learn at home, thank you









tabitha


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

Do they think it's the formula feeding and/or Ezzo crowd bringing their children to these schools?
yeeeOUCH! Please don't lump those together! (I'm one of the most pro-en moms on these boards and I bottle fed my first child.)


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Well, sure, in many societies, and according the the studies done with primates, weaning is done anywhere from 3 - 7 years. But here we are talking about a mother/child bond that is TRULY unbroken..... these other societies/tribal cultures that nurse/nursed for that long don't send their kids to school, do they? And primates certainly don't go to school. So if that's the argument, that weaning by age seven or so is actually "the norm", then if you followed that line of reasoning your kid won't be going to school, either. The child will be around you or your extended family, not going to school







In which case, yeah, homeschooling may be a more realistic option.
ETA: It would be very difficult to find any education other than homeschooling that fits 100% with everything you think, believe, and stand for. That's society for you. Maybe you (being the general "you" that's upset that Waldorf may not agree 100% on everything you believe) should start a home-based co-op school with very like-minded parents. That's always an option, and I'm sure there's a need for that...


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i have no doubt that a nursing toddler who was obviously a nursing toddler might appear more 'clingy' to an observer- none of my kids have the time to nurse or bother about it at school, who'd have a clue? (not that i'm hiding it, it just hasn't come up.) fwiw, my 'clingy' 3 yr old who loves his 'dewey' & is nowhere near ready to wean, from day one of begging to go to preschool hasn't clung a bit; it was always, 'bye, mom, see ya!' he is getting ready to hang with the 4 yr olds because he is more mature & vocal than the rest of his class. my 17 yr old who nursed till 7, clung to my knee & screamed- i had to work at the time- but still never asked for 'nammis' in class. so who are these teachers judging this by, one or two very needy kids who wanted to nurse then & there in the classroom?

this is v disappointing to me in these educational philosophies, & i wish they'd update their info beyond what their dogma says. there is *so much* to value there, but besides the fact that m & w each cost 10 grand a year, they are an hour drive from me, so it hasn't been seriously considered (other than onve a year, when we hit the elves' fair & sigh. they do some neat stuff.)

suse


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

When my babies were born instead of choosing a ped. I chose an M.D. who is a big into the Waldorph stuff and practices accordingly. However, what I did not realize is this stance on breast feeding...and yes, indeed the doctor has made their beliefs clear. Also I've gotten some heat for carrying the baby in my sling too much...
I don't think Waldoph is nearly as AP-friendly as many people might think they are.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

When my babies were born instead of choosing a ped. I chose an M.D. who is a big into the Waldorph stuff and practices accordingly. However, what I did not realize is this stance on breast feeding...and yes, indeed the doctor has made their beliefs clear. Also I've gotten some heat for carrying the baby in my sling too much...
I don't think Waldoph is nearly as AP-friendly as many people might think they are.


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## glad2bhome (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, I must say, this just sucks!!! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, Waldorf (plan on using the curriculum for homeschooling this year) but this bf thing has always been a thorn in Waldorf ed's side.








It is such an intuitive way to educate children, I REALLY wish an effort would be made to educate Waldorf teachers about this matter. Perhaps I'll write to AWSNA (the main Waldorf association) about this!! It really seems like a simple misunderstanding and lack of education on the part of the teachers.







:


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Originally posted by Momtwice
The general feeling I am getting from this thread is that Waldorf teachers are not understanding and sympathetic when normal, healthy children experience normal, healthy grief and sadness when separated from the mother they adore for the first time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _Originally posted by mimmy_
> *This is absolutely a wrong impression. I have 2 children in Waldorf school (11 and 3 yrs old) and my dh is a teacher. My children's teachers have always been sensitive and loving, as my dh is with his students. And, as I stated before my 3 yr old still "nurts" It has never been and issue.
> 
> In my experience, this is the CORRECT impression! Mimmy's Waldorf school seems more the exception than the rule.*


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Momtwice! I apologize if it looked like I was lumping FF with Ezzo. I know they are two distinct groups. Some Ezzo parents BF, some FF parents are as AP as they can be. Peace?


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

Well, sure, in many societies, and according the the studies done with primates, weaning is done anywhere from 3 - 7 years. But here we are talking about a mother/child bond that is TRULY unbroken..... these other societies/tribal cultures that nurse/nursed for that long don't send their kids to school, do they? And primates certainly don't go to school. So if that's the argument, that weaning by age seven or so is actually "the norm", then if you followed that line of reasoning your kid won't be going to school, either










There's a photo somewhere online of a little girl in her school uniform stopping by her mom's spot in the local bazaar to nurse. So yes, a culture that accepts nursing that long does indeed send its children off to school.

What makes you think that a child, not baby, child, who's still nursing at whatever age cannot go for a day while in school?

There are a pile of assumptions in this that my experience with two children who nurse(d) while in pre-school and went/go for extended all day and sometimes all night visits to grandma prove false. Children who are nursing at 4 & 5 are not nursing like newborns or even like toddlers.


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

I find this topic so fascinating. My sister and I are trying to start a charter school in MA, for the 2005/2006 school year. We want to open a public elementary school that is based on Waldorf philosophies, but in a more accessible setting. We're both in the process of being trained as Waldorf teachers as well. I hadn't heard about the controversy with nursing and Waldorf teachers before, but that's definitely something we'll leave out of our school. Nursing school-aged kids welcome.

I have my own issues with charter schools, and whether or not they are good for the overall school system. But I am trying to get a Waldorf-like education to be made available to families who may not be able to afford private school. We'll see how it goes, we're excited about the application process.

Take care,


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by veganmamma_
*

You say msot education systems nbeed to be changed, well here is the thread where we can discuss that. So I don't think it's being blown out of proportion at all.*
Im saying that When we start putting the whole waldorf education on the butcher block because a few teachers have said the wrong thing to a few parents we are blowing it out of proportion. Yes. As i have stated, in my very own school that my children attend, there has been some statements supposedly made and that doesnt make me throw in the towel. (Even if I am a strong pro-bfer) It doesnt make me think the school is anti-feeling and narrow minded.
If we want to change anything it must be by talking to the teachers themselves.

Laura


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Meiri_
*Momtwice! I apologize if it looked like I was lumping FF with Ezzo. I know they are two distinct groups. Some Ezzo parents BF, some FF parents are as AP as they can be. Peace?








*
Hugs right back atcha! Peace sister friend!









Sometimes the assumptions on this board made by *a few* moms can sting those of us who bottle fed one or more of our children. Despite being obsessed with lactation since having a wonderful long bf relationship later,

*some* of the assumptions and comments on the MDC bf boards sting at times (that all bottle feeders lack bonding hormones, prop bottles, Ezzo-fy, torture our babies with sharp pointy sticks....)


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lou_
*the philosophy behind waldorf education- anthroposophy- is prevalent in waldorf teachers' training, but is not an aspect of the school day itself. so. don't let the philosophy interfere too much with your exploration of waldorf education.
*
My son participated in a Waldorf preschool program for about a month, and this was *not* our experience. Based on what others have said the extent to which anthroposophy is an aspect of the school day varies *tremendously* from school to school, even teacher to teacher. Just because they say anthroposophy is not an aspect of the school day itself doesn't mean that is the truth. The anti-ebf ethic (which I also experienced) is a case in point.

I found Waldorf to be a religious school, as some of the critics have said. If you are down with their religion (or at least don't mind it), there are a lot of great things to say for the way the school handles education, especially in the lower grades (before the 'change of teeth'). But there is also a really weird, authoritarian side that I did not like. The anti-ebf ethic is part of this. They have a pretty rigid idea of when a kid must do x, y and z, and kids (and parents) that don't fall into this line get the guilt trip *big time*.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by glad2bhome_
*Well, I must say, this just sucks!!! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, Waldorf (plan on using the curriculum for homeschooling this year) but this bf thing has always been a thorn in Waldorf ed's side.








It is such an intuitive way to educate children, I REALLY wish an effort would be made to educate Waldorf teachers about this matter. Perhaps I'll write to AWSNA (the main Waldorf association) about this!! It really seems like a simple misunderstanding and lack of education on the part of the teachers.







:*
Glad2bhome: i agree that this IS a simple misunderstanding and lack of education on the teachers part. As i have tried to say before that some teachers have been doing this for so long, before breastfeeding became more acceptable and also valdidated by the "experts"----- so it's understandable that they were speaking with the best intentions only with less education than one would hope.
Another thing i want to point out that Anthrophsohpy and Steiners view supports children staying at home with a caregiver in the early years (up till 5 i think) so, one could see the system Has changed over the years to accomodate society.

Personally, IF I thought that my childs welfare was going to be influenced by views that were truly narrow minded and unfeeling as some of the ladies here have assumed of the teachers in question i would not continue with my childrens education there.
I DO NOT.
My SONS TEACHERS ARE FEELING MOTHERS and tEAchers and LOVELY WONDERFUL PEOPLE









Glad: If you do write to AWSNA let us know please.
Laura

ICOULDNT DO A BETTER JOB Than THEY


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

chicagomom: Are you saying that you were one of the parents who got the guilt trip? or someone else?
also, What do you mean "WEIRD Authoritarian side" ?

Thanks
Laura


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Meiri - I was trying to make a roundabout point there. Point being, not everyone is going to agree on 100% of everything 100% of the time. I was making the point that, sure, in those societies where it's the norm to wean at or by age seven it's also the norm to not have your children in a school setting. That's all. And you and I both know that is IS possible for a child to nurse and go to school. Hence, just because one part is true for you doesn't make the other part true for you, as well.......... the "true" part for you is that in certain cultures/tribal societies/primate groups, the young wean at or by age seven....... the "untrue" part for you is that just because they ebf and don't go to school doesn't mean your extended nurser can't go to school.
I'm just pointing out that most of us take what we like and discard the rest. I doubt anyone will find anyone or anything in this world they will always agree 100% with. If you don't want to go somewhere where someone may frown on ebf, then don't go there. Or go there and ignore the frown. I just don't see what the big issue is. It's not like, from my experience, they make you feel bad or weird or tell you your child can't attend 'cuz their nursing. It's merely a suggestion. Take it or leave it, ya know?







:


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

i know that like in any institution, there are branches which are gonna be differently pruned. i would have to thouroghly investigate any school i sent my dd to anyway, so i guess i'll have to find a pro ebfing, ap loving waldorf. also, one that doesnt discourage reading early or learning math early, if it's something the child is doing on their own. that bugs me too..i learned to read at 3, and i hate to think of all the joy i've gotten from books, that i got prior the magic age of 7, that i wouldve missed. back to the ebf. i think it's worth a letter writing campaign to both waldorf and montessori to alert them and educate them to the needless alienation they're causing to potential students and their parents.

i just hate that this is an issue with both waldorf and montessori.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

I've been following this discussion. It's very interesting. I use both montessori and waldorf styles in my homeschooling. Of course here I'm the teacher and can ebf if I want. :LOL Anyway, I think these schools may need to refresh their philosophies a little bit and update them. Also, I really think that no matter what school or class you're attending it all comes down to the individual teacher. You really have to find someone that loves what they are doing and truly believes in it. Probably not an easy task.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/3156/care.htm

Quote:

The advantages of sustained
breastfeeding for care

Breastfeeding for three years or longer is not as uncommon as most researchers assume. Among La Leche League members in the USA even during the 1970s when breastfeeding rates were at their lowest level, it was practiced but kept it secret, "in the closet" [8]. Even in developing countries little attention is given to breastfeeding that takes place for several years. Some researchers seem unconsciously to adhere to "norms" that lead them to expect that little if any breastfeeding is taking place after a certain age (often two-three years). I have observed in both Ghana and Lesotho, children in school uniforms breastfeeding. These children, usually standing or kneeling beside mothers who were sitting, took the breast themselves from compliant mothers who otherwise went on with their business. Neither the mothers nor bystanders paid attention to these children's breastfeeding behavior.

-Ted Greiner
(Ghana and Lesotho are countries in Africa.)


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by *Erin*_
*i. i would have to thouroghly investigate any school i sent my dd to anyway, so i guess i'll have to find a pro ebfing, ap loving waldorf. also, one that doesnt discourage reading early or learning math early, if it's something the child is doing on their own. that bugs me too..i learned to read at 3, and i hate to think of all the joy i've gotten from books, that i got prior the magic age of 7, that i wouldve missed. back to the ebf. i think it's worth a letter writing campaign to both waldorf and montessori to alert them and educate them to the needless alienation they're causing to potential students and their parents.
*
Erin, If you are understanding Waldorf to DISCOURAGE early reading or math you are misunderstanding, as many do of Waldorf;they do not dis-courage it but do start formally teaching it later than usual. I've known plenty of parents who helped their child learn to read when the need arose (in Waldorf) and Havent heard any accounts of discouragement from any teachers here.

Another thing i want to state is that I believe peoples conception that Waldorf and Aping go hand in hand--- perhaps this is part of the problem. This is simply an easy misconception to have.

laura


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Candiland, I see what you're saying, but

Quote:

in those societies where it's the norm to wean at or by age seven it's also the norm to not have your children in a school setting.
This is not true. It's not a matter of "true for me" or "true for you" take what works and leave the rest. It is simply not true, like calling the Earth flat. To give one example that springs to mind, it is quite the norm in Sweden for children to be in school, and my understanding is that nursing for years is more common there than here (USA).

To repeat part of Momtwice's post:

Quote:

The advantages of sustained breastfeeding for care

Breastfeeding for three years or longer is not as uncommon as most researchers assume. Among La Leche League members in the USA even during the 1970s when breastfeeding rates were at their lowest level, it was practiced but kept it secret, "in the closet" [8]. Even in developing countries little attention is given to breastfeeding that takes place for several years. Some researchers seem unconsciously to adhere to "norms" that lead them to expect that little if any breastfeeding is taking place after a certain age (often two-three years). *I have observed in both Ghana and Lesotho, children in school uniforms breastfeeding. These children, usually standing or kneeling beside mothers who were sitting, took the breast themselves from compliant mothers who otherwise went on with their business. Neither the mothers nor bystanders paid attention to these children's breastfeeding behavior.*

-Ted Greiner
I can agree that we will vary in what works for us as moms--nursing or not, but I won't agree that a fact isn't a fact.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Lauraess - I got the guilt trip. I don't agree that a mom who is ebf can just ignore what her child's teacher is telling her she should not do without that putting a seed of doubt in her mind about what she is doing. I'm not going to agree with everything my kids' teachers will say/do, but they *are* an authority with training and experience, so like it or not their opinion does count. Especially with a first child, when you are having a first experience with teachers and school.

I don't want to go into a diatribe about Waldorf. I know some people who have kids there and are very happy; I respect that. I also know people who have had bad experiences, including me and my child.

Re authoritarian stuff, it's hard to describe; it was a lot of little things. For example, I saw one mom get a guilt trip by the teacher because her child didn't want to eat the snack that day (cooked eggplant, which I don't care for either). She basically told this mom there was something *wrong* with him because he was such a 'picky' eater. The mom later was discussing with me and some other moms how to 'fix' her poor messed up kid.

Creative play is another example. They didn't want one kid bringing his Bob the Builder hat to school and doing Bob the Builder scenarios over and over during play, but it was perfectly okay for another kid to dress up like a pirate every single day and play out the same scenarios over and over. I'm sorry but I fail to see how being a pirate (or a fairy, or whatever) is more imaginative than being Bob the Builder. They encouraged a particular kind of imaginative play, not imaginative play in general.

The teacher didn't like when moms took their kids into the bathroom to wash hands before snack, because they're supposed to rinse their hands in the same communal pool of soapy & rinse water. Why should she care about this? But it was an issue, and she made these moms feel like they were doing something wrong and that their children were somehow not 'participating'.

I've got more examples, but again I don't want this to be a diatribe. I think on the whole the teachers were loving towards the kids. It's just that the anthroposophic view constrains how they view child development in a way I find disagreeable.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Chicagomom: Thanks for sharing your experiences. I know making the decision about school for your child is difficult and i hope you will find something that works for you and your child.
Personally, I love that my kids are encouraged to play pirate or fairy land as opposed to bob the builder. This works for us as a family, we totally get the underscore of fantasy and imagination and have followed much of what waldorf teaches and so far it's worked. I know what the options are and I know what i dont "dig" at the waldorf school and still the scales favor Waldorf by a long shot. To each his own.
Laura


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I stumbled upon this looking for knitting instructions from a link someone posted in Sewing and Crafts that was supposed to have Continental Knitting instructions. Haven't found those yet, but I did find this, FWIW.









http://waldorfwithoutwalls.com/artic...stfeeding.html

Looks to me like the Waldorf "docs" are even less informed about breastfeeding than the averag allopathic docs.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

well., thank goodness for a rational voice within Waldorf! That "heredity" thing flashes me right back to germ and sanitation theories from the turn of the century...leading into eugenics and theories of inherited poverty, criminality, etc. One for the first pushes about formula use was the belief that many "conditions" are transmitted through breastmilk...in addition to infectious disease. And in earlier centuries wet nurses were selected (or discouraged) based on belief that the wetnurse's milk would imbue the child with negative characteristics.


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

loved that article! thanks meiri- i printed it out and will share it with all my ebf mama friends who are interested in waldorf.
like i said earlier- the most important thing as parents is for us to listen to ourselves and our child and stay on that journey towards truth.

Quote:

The task of the parents is to provide GOODNESS from (pre) birth to 7 years of age...
it's all about surrounding our child with Goodness. In the Early Childhood Seminar I was involved in, we had a debate about telling fairy tales to our children- whether or not we should include all the gory details *Grimms has a lot of that* but the MOST important thing was if we, as mothers, felt it was good for our child, then it WAS good. If we go against something that we truly feel is good, then our child picks up on that energy and it becomes not good. it's the same about ebf- it's a couple relationship- let us all maintain Goodness!!


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## aglaia (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momtwice_
*I did not. Many other moms here at MDC also did not.

IReferences:
http://www.who.int/child-adolescent-..._exclusive.htm
http://www.aafp.org/x6633.xml
http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/29.html
http://www.prairienet.org/laleche/detwean.html*
Thank you for the references!









Many doctors, teachers etc. they don't refresh their knowlege on breastfeeding and more...


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

a Waldorf preschool teacher I used to work with wouldn't take nursing children in her preschool- her reasoning was that, if the child got hurt or got frustrated and wanted comforting, the teacher could never give the same comfort that breastfeeding could, and that would interfere with the teacher/child relationship.

i would love to know what you think about that reasoning, what would your response be to that?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

excellent article.

um, my son wants comfort from me A LOT, but he doesn't want it from his teachers! (non-waldorf, but ah well.) not like that (and he knows that if he needs comfort that much, i am a phone call & 5 minute drive away.)

he is 3, chose to go to preschool (i unschool, but he wanted to hang out twice a week, and has been having a fun time), and in general is too busy being a craft-making, snack-eating, friend-chasing, puzzle-fixing 3 yr old to bother much about his 'dewey' in class. he has never needed/wanted it. if he doesn't see it as an issue (and god knows, that boy loves his 'dew' & is nowhere ready to wean), why should that waldorf teacher?

suse


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

a Waldorf preschool teacher I used to work with wouldn't take nursing children in her preschool- her reasoning was that, if the child got hurt or got frustrated and wanted comforting, the teacher could never give the same comfort that breastfeeding could, and that would interfere with the teacher/child relationship.
That is such complete and utter bullshite, that I can't believe a woman that stupid managed to get certified.

Both of my children had absolutely no problems being comforted by a teacher, and both were still nursing during both years of preschool. They knew (know in DD's case) that I am the only source of fresh milk, and the concept of needed that from anyone else would never have occurred (occur in DD's case) to either of them.

They both spent entire days with Grandma, same thing, hugs and treats were comfort enough.


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

i appreciate your input- this thread has been inspiring to me, to see what other parents outside of waldorf feel about their stance on ebf. again, not all anthrosophical doctors/waldorf educators promote weaning at a early age. my anthrosophical doc nursed her youngest til 3-4 yo.
obviously, if your child is independent enough to be comforted by other adults- teachers & extended family- that's a sign that ebf doesn't affect a child's sense of independence.
the waldorf teacher i worked with was coming from a different perspective- not one you agree with, but she is one of the greatest people i know, an excellent teacher, a loving, nurturing person. each parent chooses their child's teacher based on values that are important to them.


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## aglaia (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lou_
*if your child is independent enough to be comforted by other adults- teachers & extended family- that's a sign that ebf doesn't affect a child's sense of independence.
*
Sorry, but I don't understood the interference between ebf and the affect in sense of independence. (Maybe because English is foreign language for me, sorry again)







:

My breastfeed son needs to be comforted by other adults. He is 3 years 9 months old and he is going to the school.
Once he told me that he needed more times in the arms of his teacher. I asked him if his teacher spends time to take him in her arms. He answered me very clear "Yes, but I need more. Don't forget to say to her it!"


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## joyfulheart (Nov 24, 2001)

Here's my .02!

I've been at a Waldorf school for 3 years now. Extended nursing is very common. I've never seen anyone discouraged in the least. In fact, I find the school to be a safe-haven for extended breastfeeding.

Last week in my parent/child class, as 2 of us were nursing our 3 year olds, we started talking about how long we thought the kids might nurse. And a mom of a 2 year old started talking about her nursing and how she wouldn't even think of weaning. And we're all like, "Yeah, he's still so young, though." And the mom started busting out laughing saying, "I love this place. Where else can you hear people say yeah, 2 is so young! Most everywhere else, people are mortified my toddler is nursing."

Also, we met with the early childhood teacher to discuss my 3 year old attending a younger child program for next year. She never even asked whether he was still nursing or not. Not an issue as far as I can tell.

Finally, I might add that from my studies on Rudolf Steiner, I believe he was against dogmatism. He was an advocate of personal freedom and choice. I think he might be surprised how his work is interpreted and carried out sometimes...but, that is my opinion...repeat, my opinion.

joyful


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Let me put it a different way Lou, as to why that teacher's attitude isn't fit for fertilizer.

From the day a baby is born, he/she can be comforted by other people when comfort, rather than Food, is all that's needed.

From day one, breastfeeding is not the only comfort measure possible, nor is the mom the only one who can comfort baby, even as she is the only one who can breastfeed.

Therefor, that teacher's attitude is a cop-out, an excuse to hide her prejudice against SN behind. No, she can't comfort by nursing, but no one expects her to. No one is asking her to. Most of us would rather ticked off in fact if she did (without asking at least). But that doesn't mean that she can't comfort an upset child in the ways available to any teacher. She has arms, a lap, soft words, kindness?? Then she's got all she needs and then some.

That she would deny a child because that child still takes comfort from fresh milk from momma is nothing more than prejudice.

I'm glad to see that not all Waldorf teachers, doctors, schools are so dogmatically ignorant!


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## puddinnpeanut (Jan 22, 2002)

WOW!!! I can't believe how many responses this post has gotten! Anyway, I posted in the very beginning, about 70 posts ago, ha ha! I don't know if anyone is still interested but if you have read this much here are my 2 cents!









We went to the open house and I really liked the school! After the more formal presentation I was the first to go up to the pre-k/kindergarten teacher and ask her position on nursing! She said well my son nursed till he was 5! I said enough said! I told her I was tandem nursing and she was absolutely thrilled! She said that is wonderful! I told her about this discussion and she said she thought it was just outdated information probably from a male doctor! I also saw a mother nursing at the open house! Mine were too crazy over the playsilks and sandbox to think of nursing! I felt much better about this issue after talking with her! It just so happens this teacher recently wrote an article for Mothering! I thought the environment seemed very loving and nurturing! Anyway that is my update! I would definitely ask about this issue specifically when considering any school for that matter! I would not want my children to have any negative feelings about nursing! Good luck to everyone with their educational choices!


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## glad2bhome (Dec 21, 2002)

YAYYYYYY! I'm so happy for you!






















Where is the school located?


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## puddinnpeanut (Jan 22, 2002)

The school is in New Orleans! This current school year is the first year of the pre-k/kindergarten. The school started about 4 years ago when a few families decided they wanted to bring Waldorf education to New Orleans. They searched all over to find the teachers and have been adding new grades each year. Next year will be the first year for the first grade and they are considering moving to a new location to be all under one roof. Currently the school is at three locations in a sort of home-like atomosphere. It is definitely a real grass roots movement type of school, since the parents started it and interviewed/hired the teachers! For now I am still trying to decide if this is the right place for us! Although I thought the pre-k/k teacher was the epitomy of what an early childhood teacher should be, the newness of the school makes me a little unsure of things! Still thinking and praying about the right thing to do for us! Anyway sorry if I got alittle off topic!







T I hope that wasn't TMI!


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