# I don't like the way DH handles tantrums - your input? UPDATE #33



## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

DS is 2.5yo and very sensitive/explosive. He is like every kid in that he is worse when he is tired/hungry, but he also has some sensory issues that we are working on.

DH and I have been arguing about a dinner problem. DS is usually tired and hungry by dinner time (I am working on serving his dinner earlier, but it's not always possible), but he absolutely cannot sit still to eat. He WANTS to eat, but he just CAN'T. He is distracted by talking, wanting to go play, jump, whatever. He is incapable of sitting in a chair. Between not falling out of it and not climbing onto the table, dinner time is usually a problem. We've tried to accommodate him, but some nights he really just can't eat.

So I tell him that we're cleaning up, and if he'd like to eat, he needs to do it now. He panics and says he wants it. I give it to him. He doesn't eat anything and heads back to the living room. I remind him again (while cleaning the other dishes away) that he has a few minutes. He panics....on and on. DH thinks I should just give him one chance and then huck his dinner whether he screams or not. So tonight we tried it and.... he starts raging. These tantrums are very different from his usual and I have a hard time with them so DH offers to step in.

His favorite tactics are:

1) Distract/try to cheer: He offers to play a game, GIVE HIM CHOCOLATE, take him upstairs for a book, anything to get him to stop thinking about it. I don't think it's fair to just think his feelings will go away, and it doesn't work anyway, not when he's that far gone. I also don't like the food = stress relief association.

2) Tell him that his upset is upsetting others: tonight it was "You need to calm down, you're making DD upset". What? Bottle it up so that other people don't get upset?!

3) Separate him from me: I see why this might work in theory because my validating does tend to make it worse before it gets better, but it doesn't work in practice because I am usually the one he wants for comfort. I get that DH needs to find his own way, but the rages don't happen often and I feel like they need to be handled carefully. Maybe I'm over-reacting on that?

Then when he finally calmed down, he told him he could have a snack. DH thinks he learned that he has a certain span of time to eat his dinner, and that's that. I think he learned that if he stalls, rages, and then asks for food, DH gets him a granola bar instead of his healthy dinner.

Ideas? I don't like this power struggle over food ONE BIT. I really prefer to just leave DS's dinner out until he's so far lost interest in it that I really can toss/save it without freaking him out, but DH thinks we should have a more routine approach about this. Argh. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs over something stupid, IDK.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Can you put out a fruit/veggie tray as you are getting supper ready so he can snack on healthy stuff while he is super hungry? That way you know he at least had that. He is pretty little- I probably would ask him to come to the table but let him leave when he is done, put away his food when supper is over and give the same bedtime snack every night (maybe cheese).


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
Can you put out a fruit/veggie tray as you are getting supper ready so he can snack on healthy stuff while he is super hungry? That way you know he at least had that. He is pretty little- I probably would ask him to come to the table but let him leave when he is done, put away his food when supper is over and give the same bedtime snack every night (maybe cheese).

This works. My DD often snacks while I'm cooking. Sometime she's hungry enough for abit of dinner sometimes not. She really wasn't able to sit very long for dinner while she was two. By the time she was 3.5 she loved having dinner together at the table.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Its really hard for a child that age to sit and eat dinner with the family. Its even harder if he has sensory issues - the smells, the amount of food on the plate, everyone sitting around the table together, etc.

Can you let this eating thing go for another year or so? Around 3.5 or 4 he might be better able to sit with the family at the table.

You'd be doing him a favor, anyway, by having foods out frequently and letting him "graze." Then he could respond to his body's signals for food, rather than unsuccessfully trying to adapt his body to an imposed eating schedule. In addition, food wouldn't become such a charged issue.

As for how to respond to tantrums, it looks like your DH has some good ideas and good responses and some not-so-good ones. Once his feelings have been acknowledged, encouraging him to turn his attention to something else is a pretty good tactic. Some kids get stuck in the negative emotion and can't move on.

Giving him chocolate or other edible treats to stop a tantrum is probably a pattern you don't want to get into.

Pointing out the effect his behavior has on others doesn't seem that bad to me as long as the intent isn't to stuff his feelings, but to show him ways to manage his emotions that don't hurt others. So, I could see saying something like, "Your sister is covering her ears and crying. She doesn't like the loud noises you are making because you are upset. Let's go into the bedroom together and close the door."

I think at that age he does need his mama for comfort. I don't understand why DH would want to separate DS from you. If he wants to be able to comfort his son and be a resource for him as much as mama is, the time to work on that is not in the middle of a tantrum. Its all the time DS spends with you, all the nurturing and togetherness, that makes him want you when he needs comfort, so your DH would need to also put in all that time while DS is not upset to get to the place where DS seeks DH out for comfort, at least while he is so young.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think you should feed DS when he's hungry, and not make him wait for the family dinner time. If he then wants to eat again with you and DH, that's great. If he doesn't, that's OK too- he's already eaten.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

FTR, I do feed him when he's hungry. I give him snacks when he asks and encourage him to eat throughout the day. I give him small snacks before dinner to tide him over.

ITA that food should never be something to fight over. However, DH usually only gets home an hour before DS's bedtime, so he is TIRED at dinner. I don't like the scheduling, but I can't change it. It is almost impossible for me to get dinner ready earlier than that, so DS would be eating snacks for dinner every night, which I don't really like either. I guess if he ate leftover dinner for lunch, it wouldn't matter if he had "lunch" for dinner. Maybe I just need to rethink the timing.

DH has different ideas about what kids should do at dinner time, and he thinks DS should just "learn" to sit with us, even if he's not eating. I disagree. The real issue here is this particular point: I think we should make special consideration for his sensory issues (and the fact hat he's still little), and DH denied that he has the issues at dinner and wants to train him, so to speak. I would like t get DH to let this issue go, but he keeps at it.

This is the way DH handles ALL tantrums, so the food issue is realy a separate problem, IMO, although it is the one that DH deals with the most since it happens when he's home.


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## sarahtdubb (Apr 30, 2007)

I second the idea of trying your best to feed him more before dinner. We were having problems like this-- DS too far gone at dinner time, not eating, then getting frantically hungry and crazy for the rest of the evening. It has really helped to just make myself get him dinner earlier and make it part of our schedule. Almost every evening I just cook him a scrambled egg--it's easy and I know he likes it-- between 4:30-5. He scarfs it down! Sometimes he stands on a chair in the kitchen and eats from the counter while I cook dinner, other nights he is in his high chair, and sometimes we have a picnic on the floor.

I think it helps keep him calm because then when we sit down to eat--like 6/6:30, he sits with us and eats again (for a few minutes). if we skip his early dinner, he does not eat with us later, he's too wacky and moody. I've also noticed that it satisfies his initial hunger, so he tries a wider variety of foods with us at dinner--ie. miso soup, veggies, tofu, sweet potatoes, etc.--that he normally rejects if he is too hungry.


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## lnitti (Jun 14, 2004)

I have a couple thoughts:

1. Who says that the snack food cannot be the same as the dinner time food? Certain foods do not have to get designated as snack and others as dinner. Why not give him the dinner as his snack at the time that works for you and him?

2. you know you can feed your son dinner anytime you like. Who cares what time DH gets home. He is a big boy, he can take care of himself. Make dinner for you and your son when it works for you and him. When your DH gets home, he can reheat his portion and your son can eat a snack (or more of the dinner food) with him if your son is hungry again. And if he's not hungry at that time, it won't matter because he has already had dinner. Or alternatively, your DH could spend that time with your son playing, reading, etc. and reheat and eat his dinner when your son has gone to bed. You have to meet your sons needs. Your DH can take care of himself.

Something I do is cook extras of everything so that we have many meals that are simply reheating leftovers. Saves time on the days that we don't have time. Like dd too hungry to wait for me to cook and thowing fits - I can just reheat some of the leftovers instead of resorting to other readily available, but not as nutritious foods. When we get home from school/work, and they are starving, sometimes they will start with cereal or something while I reheat dinner. If I didn't have foods to reheat, they would end up filling up on their snack of quickly available foods (cereal, animal cookies, crackers, etc) and then they won't eat dinner later because they would be full.

And I rarely would hold up dinner to wait for my DH. He is not home evening M-Th, and Friday, Sat and Sunday he is not at work, but I still don't usually wait for him. That is not to say that we never eat together, but if my kids are hungry we're not waiting for him. On any day when we absolutely have to eat with him, they generally are given something to eat not long before dinner preparation begins to make sure they can make it till dinner (even if they end up not eating much dinner).


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lnitti* 
I have a couple thoughts:

1. Who says that the snack food cannot be the same as the dinner time food? Certain foods do not have to get designated as snack and others as dinner. Why not give him the dinner as his snack at the time that works for you and him?

2. you know you can feed your son dinner anytime you like. Who cares what time DH gets home. He is a big boy, he can take care of himself. Make dinner for you and your son when it works for you and him. When your DH gets home, he can reheat his portion and your son can eat a snack (or more of the dinner food) with him if your son is hungry again. And if he's not hungry at that time, it won't matter because he has already had dinner. Or alternatively, your DH could spend that time with your son playing, reading, etc. and reheat and eat his dinner when your son has gone to bed. You have to meet your sons needs. Your DH can take care of himself.

Something I do is cook extras of everything so that we have many meals that are simply reheating leftovers. Saves time on the days that we don't have time. Like dd too hungry to wait for me to cook and thowing fits - I can just reheat some of the leftovers instead of resorting to other readily available, but not as nutritious foods. When we get home from school/work, and they are starving, sometimes they will start with cereal or something while I reheat dinner. If I didn't have foods to reheat, they would end up filling up on their snack of quickly available foods (cereal, animal cookies, crackers, etc) and then they won't eat dinner later because they would be full.

And I rarely would hold up dinner to wait for my DH. He is not home evening M-Th, and Friday, Sat and Sunday he is not at work, but I still don't usually wait for him. That is not to say that we never eat together, but if my kids are hungry we're not waiting for him. On any day when we absolutely have to eat with him, they generally are given something to eat not long before dinner preparation begins to make sure they can make it till dinner (even if they end up not eating much dinner).

I also only cook 2-3 times a week and do left overs the other nights. The problem is on the nights when I am cooking and I CAN'T give him what I'm cooking. Like tonight I am making a wild rice dish and rice can't be eaten raw. Some of the ingredients he won't eat unless they are cooked, like broccoli and onions.

The actual issue that I wanted to mention here is the tantrums. I am working on the timing of feeding him, like I said, and I am not averse to feeding him before dinner. I don't really like it when he fills up on fruit and cheese (not that those are not healthy foods, but dinner is usually our healthiest, most balanced meal, not that that can't change if it needs to). The only reason I brought up this particular case is because DH seems to think that we may need to get to the tantrum point so that he will learn that he eats when we eat. I totally disagree and think that the tantrum should be avoided completely and I don't like how he handles it afterward.

That's what I was really asking about. Maybe I should have just left the back story off, but I thought it was relevant since it's usually the issue that DH deals with the most because he is home.

And as far as cooking dinner ahead of time and feeding us and making DH wait - he gets home at 6. I don't think that's an unreasonable hour for dinner. I value our family meal, although I think it is still to early to expect our son to go along with it. I still would like to eat dinner most nights with DH.


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Have you seen muffin tin meals / monkey platters? If not google either of those terms and you'll come up w/ lots of ideas that will probably help you out tons!
The muffin tin meal thing has been huge here....just put a bunch of different healthy foods into different spots of a muffin tin and leave them out where you're little one can get to them. That way - your LO can eat when they are hungry, as much or little as they need, and you know they are eating healthy.... we've been doing these w/ DS since he was about 16 mos or so...used to be a daily thing, now it's mostly just when he hasn't eaten well or I don't feel like fixing something during the day... they are very quick to prepare, chop up an apple, celery, carrot, cucumber, pear etc, make (multi-grain / whole wheat) toast and cut into fingers, add some cheese cubes (DS loves FETA cheese crumbles!), cubes or slices of whatever leftover meat you have in the fridge, pumpkin/sunflower seeds, raisins, cranberries... Use mostly foods you know your LO will eat, and add a food or two each day that is new or usually refused, he may surprise you by trying something new! Meat/cheese cubes, or meat slices rolled up, w/ a toothpick stuck through them are huge here too....even grapes or banana slices, I don't know why, but it all goes over better if there's a toothpick in it!
Would your DH be happy if your DS was at the table with you but maybe driving cars, or coloring, playing w/ playdough, etc? some activity that keeps him happy.

Quote:

you know you can feed your son dinner anytime you like. Who cares what time DH gets home. He is a big boy, he can take care of himself. Make dinner for you and your son when it works for you and him. When your DH gets home, he can reheat his portion and your son can eat a snack (or more of the dinner food) with him if your son is hungry again. And if he's not hungry at that time, it won't matter because he has already had dinner. Or alternatively, your DH could spend that time with your son playing, reading, etc. and reheat and eat his dinner when your son has gone to bed. You have to meet your sons needs. Your DH can take care of himself.
I agree w/ the above for the most part.... except I would probably say feed your son, and you and your husband eat together while he plays (with you or in the other room, if it'll avoid a fight, IMO).


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:

His favorite tactics are:

1) Distract/try to cheer: He offers to play a game, GIVE HIM CHOCOLATE, take him upstairs for a book, anything to get him to stop thinking about it. I don't think it's fair to just think his feelings will go away, and it doesn't work anyway, not when he's that far gone. I also don't like the food = stress relief association.

2) Tell him that his upset is upsetting others: tonight it was "You need to calm down, you're making DD upset". What? Bottle it up so that other people don't get upset?!

3) Separate him from me: I see why this might work in theory because my validating does tend to make it worse before it gets better, but it doesn't work in practice because I am usually the one he wants for comfort. I get that DH needs to find his own way, but the rages don't happen often and I feel like they need to be handled carefully. Maybe I'm over-reacting on that?
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong w/ any of that. If the tantrums are infrequent....then I would just ...live and let live - sounds like your DH is doing the best he can to stop the tantrum & make your DS feel better.








I think as Mom, sometimes it's hard to let go and let someone else 'handle' it - esp when our LO's are crying....I know I feel that way often, whether DS has fallen down, or is upset because he was told "no" or is just overtired....as soon as he starts crying I'm put on edge - and I want to fix it myself....but that would really just be undermining DH if he's already doing something.... (does that make sense? I'm tired and rambling now....)

If your DS really does just want you....(ie - nursing, etc) maybe you could ask DH to clean up while you take care of DS?


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *azmomtoone* 
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong w/ any of that. If the tantrums are infrequent....then I would just ...live and let live - sounds like your DH is doing the best he can to stop the tantrum & make your DS feel better.








I think as Mom, sometimes it's hard to let go and let someone else 'handle' it - esp when our LO's are crying....I know I feel that way often, whether DS has fallen down, or is upset because he was told "no" or is just overtired....as soon as he starts crying I'm put on edge - and I want to fix it myself....but that would really just be undermining DH if he's already doing something.... (does that make sense? I'm tired and rambling now....)

If your DS really does just want you....(ie - nursing, etc) maybe you could ask DH to clean up while you take care of DS?

Tantrums are so far from infrequent at our house. They are like a 3-5x daily occurence. What is NOT usual are these rages, which I think require special attention (ie, the normal tactics don't really work).

I DO see a problem with trying to guilt someone out of their feelings by telling them that they upset others. I also have a problem with not validating the feelings at all and pretending like nothing is wrong while asking if he wants to play a game.

BUT, maybe I am just crazy and this is no big deal. I guess that the fact that my DS gets worse and worse and worse until I am allowed to deal with it makes me feel like something is not going right. I agree that I want to let DH learn his own way, but not at DS's expense (ie. being made to rage longer than necessary because he's being refused my company), and I also don't like undermining DH, but again....

Maybe no one else has seen this explosive, destructive type tantrum. Maybe I'm just too sensitive to it. I don't know.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

If I were you, I would not say negative things to DH about how he's handling things, and you should *negotiate* dinner routines. I see nothing wrong with DH's ideas. How many have you tried? I think it's fair enough to try any idea for a week or two, if it doesn't work then you move on to the next on the list. You've listed things that DH has come up with. Time to add some of your ideas to the list, alternating one of his for one of yours. Eventually you'll find something that works, or you'll alternate your way out of the stage.

I don't think your DH's expectations are off base either. We never allowed back and forth at the dinner table either (in our case, that was not pragmatic, with three children under 2). They sat, they ate, when they decided they were done, they were washed up and let free (we kept a childproof play area next to the dinner table, so that we could sit and eat and talk while still keeping an eye on everyone). No demands on how much they ate. After all, they were going to get a before-bedtime-routine snack.

As they got older, we engaged them at more conversation at the table, and they stayed for longer periods of time.

Of course, every family is different. Perhaps you'd prefer a buffet-and-run-and-return style of dinner, which is fine. However, there is more than just you and your desires in the household, so you might need to compromise on a sitting together as a family for 5 minutes for the meal/snack (if DH comes home very late), then off the kiddo runs as he needs to.

But I don't agree that toddlers are incapable of family mealtimes. We have three very different personality kids, and we made it work with a minimum of fuss. DH is not going to get a formal family dinner every night (if that's what he wants). I don't think it's unreasonable of you to compromise and make things a little less up and down. It sounds like your DH has good instincts, and so do you. So instead of worrying who's doing things 'wrong' why not try lots of things until you get the 'right' mix?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
I DO see a problem with trying to guilt someone out of their feelings by telling them that they upset others. I also have a problem with not validating the feelings at all and pretending like nothing is wrong while asking if he wants to play a game.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, time out for a minute. Are you SURE that DH's intention is "guilting" or might that be some projection on your part?

Because if DS screaming and tantruming does make DD cry, then saying that screaming is upsetting DD is not a guilt-trip, it's a statement of fact. Empathy does not always develop in a vaccum, and at 2.5, DS can be told on a rudimentary level that his actions DO affect others.

And how is distraction and not being pulled in to the emotions "not validating" feelings, if this is a frequent response and how DS deals with any type of stress or not getting what he wants? Sometimes remaining calm and on and even keel is actually respecting DS venting without compounding things by adding to them.

So it's not okay for DH to remark on OR try to ignore DS's behavior? I'm sorry, mama, I can tell you are frustrated, but DH is a different person and following your exact formula of how to respond may or may not feel natural or unfakey to him.

My DD has had the type of tantrums that you describe (hers didn't really start until 3 though.) They ARE tough. They DO rip at your insides. It's so easy to want to pull out all the stops just to make it better. However, DH ( who is the more pragmatic/even keel of the two of us) actually had more success in the long term than me, using some of the techniques you've described of your DH. And since I had been raised in a very abusive, manipulative, sick environment you would not believe how strongly I projected onto what he was doing. Thank goodness he was able to manage MY tantrums and fears too.  Sometimes the person who frankly doesn't have to deal with that type of emotional stress that those huge raging tantrums create in you as much can try/see different ways of doing things than the person who is constantly having to worry about when the next one is. Not saying that will be true in your case, we had to try lots of different coping strategies before we found a good balanced set for our toolkit. But...again, I would really urge you to try to let DH try some stuff his own way.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I think that you can expect your child to sit with you if that is what your family decides - you can have food and/or a coloring book or something for when your child is done eating.

I think that the snack after the rage was not a good idea either. For us, if DD does not eat supper she gets a glass of milk before bed (if she wants). So we know she has some protein in her tummy for the night.

HTH

Tjej


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
DH is a different person and following your exact formula of how to respond may or may not feel natural or unfakey to him. ...But...again, I would really urge you to try to let DH try some stuff his own way.

I agree. Let DH have his "own" way. Dads as well need to feel confident in their abilities to handle all scopes of their children's behaviors.

And I don't think a 2 year old needs only mommy for comfort in a raging tantrum. If you were gone how would Dad cope if he never got the chance to learn? How would your SON cope with Dad's methods if he never got the chance to tantrum with Dad?

As for bothering others by a tantrum, I see no problem pointing out the fact that one person's crying and screaming is bothering others. That's why we remove our children from public places when they do that, that's why I won't argue with DH (which is rare anyway







) in front of the kids, and is also why I don't let my kids tantrum in front of the baby - because it scares him. I like what the PP said: _"Your sister is covering her ears and crying. She doesn't like the loud noises you are making because you are upset. Let's go into the bedroom together and close the door."_

As for distracting him from his upset mind, what is wrong in that? Even when my own DH has a bad day, I distract him for awhile with some flirtation, jokes, etc., until the "edge" is worn off and he's ready to talk. I do that with my kids - if one is screaming and ranting, I will TRY to make light of something my making monkey faces or stomping my feet and telling them I'm a big mad gorilla, and then when they start smiling and laughing, I hold them and talk and validate why they were upset.










As for dinner, just a thought - have you tried serving all the meals in wonky orders? Like breakfast at waking, then a snack/meal around 11, then a late lunch around 2 or 3 so he's not overhungry by 6?


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
...

I DO see a problem with trying to guilt someone out of their feelings by telling them that they upset others. I also have a problem with not validating the feelings at all and pretending like nothing is wrong while asking if he wants to play a game.

...

I see a problem with that, too, but is this what your DH is doing? I don't think it's wrong to tell DS that his ACTIONS (how he's displaying his feelings) are what's upsetting to the rest of the family. Could your DH maybe continue the conversation (you know, beyond "Stop it, you're upsetting everyone") in such a way that DS will learn that while his feelings of rage and frustration are okay, how he's venting them is not, so here's what we can do instead....? Maybe this is how DH can distract from the tantruming and help DS find a way to organize his feelings so he can calm down and know what he wants.

My son is just starting the "Terrible Twos" and talking to him helps a great deal. Sometimes it's really hard to get him to stop flailing and being angry, but the more we talk the easier it becomes to figure out what's really going on (or to distract him with something else -- sometimes I'm not even sure which it is!).

I think you are right about not wanting to reinforce the pattern of "ignore dinner, have fit, get granola bar" -- talk to DH and come up with a game plan you both can live with, whether it's "This is dinner. Now it's over. No more food til snack time." or "This is dinner. Eat it whenever you feel like it."


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Whoa, whoa, whoa, time out for a minute. Are you SURE that DH's intention is "guilting" or might that be some projection on your part?

Okay, I think you might be partly right here. I suppose telling him that his actions affect others is fine, even during a tantrum. After all, I won't let him hit or kick me, and I suppose this is similar.

However, saying, "STOP CRYING, you are upsetting the baby" feels like guilt to me. And you're right that some of it is my own upbringing. My mom constantly told me that I had no right to my feelings or that it didn't matter that I was upset. So yeah, I take particular issue with this point. I suppose I should just ask him about this particular wording and leave the guilting thing aside. He probably is just trying to point out a fact, like you said. He is a very sensitive guy himself.

I suppose the biggest part of the problem is that I am exhausted by dinner time from trying to keep him from destroying the house or falling apart all day, and then DH comes home and wants to do this thing that I know will send him raging. I just don't want to listen to one more tantrum at dinner time.

And I don't think it's unreasonable to want a kid to sit with you for dinner either, but I have recently decided that it's unreasonable for MY kid. He's a sensory seeker, so when he gets tired and hungry, he truly CANNOT sit down. Last night I tried putting a stool under his feet for him to bounce his feet on a bit, and that bought us about 3 min, but we're getting somewhere. He really will not get any food into himself if he's tired because he will be unable to sit still to eat it. That's why I don't mind his food being left for him to eat sort of "drive by" style as this is the only way to get food into him at dinner time.

You're right, I'm really frustrated and exhausted. I know what works, and I hate watching DH fumble around trying to learn. As of yet, I haven't talked to him about the way he handles tantrums. He knows I don't really like it, but I respect his space while he learns. I guess some people don't see anything he's doing as a problem, so I'm going to try taking this as more of a brainstorming approach than a "I don't like the way you do this" approach, although to be fair, he did the same thing with me with how I handled dinner. Trying to offer my son his dinner again only to hear, "Don't do it! Don't give in! If you say you're going to put it away, then do it!" in front of my kid feels hurtful to me.

DH and I usually have very good communication. We're struggling with the new stuff with DS, and we're on opposite sides of how to handle it right now. We're meeting more in the middle, but it's slow going, and we're still figuring out how to handle things in the moment when we disagree.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Its really hard for a child that age to sit and eat dinner with the family.

So many people say this on these boards. Is this really true? Because in real life, I know of no parents who have these "sitting still" issues with their littles....most people do it from day one and the kids know no different.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I think your thread should be called, "I don't think DH has reasonable expectations of a 2.5 year old."

I'd do these two things:
(1) Talk to DH-- not at dinner/when the kids are around/etc. about how YOU want to have a nice dinner. YOU want to be able to enjoy a meal without this issue of your DS. I think that's fair, after a long day! I find it very stressful and difficult to eat when there is tension! Tell DH to do you a favor, and for the next several weeks at least, give your way a try. In other words, the point would not be to convince your DH of anything except that YOU need a break.

(2) You're a SAHM, yes? I'd just feed DS pretty often, not really worrying about whether it's a snack or meal. Food is food. I think you need to let go of what he eats and when. You will not cause any permanent damage with this attitude. Then, if he WANTS to sit at the table for dinner, fine. I might tell him it's dinner/invite him . . .maybe, but maybe I wouldn't even do that for a week, just to give him a break from this whole thing.

I think you are both contributing to this becoming an issue . . .DH expects your son to act a certain way when your son is (a) two years old and (b) at his worst (the end of the day). You are overly concerned with what he is eating and when-- yet he has to eat late in the evening since it goes according to DH's work schedule. In other words, I suggest not making this an issue about your DS-- such as saying he has sensory issues-- but rather look at the role the adults have in this situation.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 

The actual issue that I wanted to mention here is the tantrums.


I don't know anything about your situation except what you've posted here, but as I said in my pp, in the case of ANY tantrum, look to see what role YOU, as the adults, are playing in the scenario.

I posted an article on another thread called Misbehavior vs. Mistaken Behavior. You might want to print it off for DH to read.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SactoMommy* 
DH and I usually have very good communication. We're struggling with the new stuff with DS, and we're on opposite sides of how to handle it right now. We're meeting more in the middle, but it's slow going, and we're still figuring out how to handle things in the moment when we disagree.

Of course you are! This kind of thing is an absolute punch to the gut. It's stressful, and communication is almost never going to be at its best in an extremely high stress situation. I'm glad you're going with the brainstorming approach rather than, "I don't like what you're doing, do it this way!" approach. As you said, when someone corrects you in the moment, especially under duress (an absolutely raging screaming tantrum in the background) then that feels like rejection and attack even though that is not probably the intent--the corrector is acting out of stress as well. You're both going to trip up with each other. It might be a good idea to have a safe word that when you're under stress you can use to say (not meanly) "back off, I need to handle this my own way, but no harm no foul" before feelings get hurt. I know DH and I definitely needed that, especially when DD would set off the twins with her screaming and rages (because they ARE frightening many times to younger children!), and then we had three crying babies and toddlers!

Hey, you know what? 3 minutes is three minutes. If that's what you can do right now that is OKAY. Maybe next month, it can be 4. Or maybe it might go down to 2 for awhile. You will get through this, so will DH and DD and DS.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

It's a tough situation. I think you could acknowledge to your DH that you're tired out, that it's hard, and that you can see he has good ideas. It won't hurt to try to get back to teamwork.

My solution would be not to expect him to have dinner at 6 - especially after the time change. My son is 4 and even now it's really best if he eats by 5:45. It's just how he is.

What I'm wondering though is if your DH's need for a "family meal" could be met by making a bigger deal of _breakfast_, when your son is not at his sensory wits' end? Maybe if everyone got up a bit earlier together?


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 

What I'm wondering though is if your DH's need for a "family meal" could be met by making a bigger deal of _breakfast_, when your son is not at his sensory wits' end? Maybe if everyone got up a bit earlier together?

That is an AWESOME idea. Gonna suggest it tonight.


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## lnitti (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *azmomtoone* 
I agree w/ the above for the most part.... except I would probably say feed your son, and you and your husband eat together while he plays (with you or in the other room, if it'll avoid a fight, IMO).

The reason I suggested eating with the child instead of with DH is so that you still are eating together with your son rather than him eating by himself. It is still family time with you and him. Instead of singling him out with a special meal to eat by himself. He still has the opportunity to watch the adult model what dinner time should look like. He has the opportunity to converse with you over dinner, etc. I believe that children learn how to behave at that table from observing and emulating the parents. For us, family together to eat is important and I try to do that as much as possible. But if it needs to be without 1 member of the family that is ok.

Also, it establishes the precedent that yes, in general we DO eat together. When you have another child, it will be you and both children eating together. Rather than both children together without an adult, then you later with DH.

We don't have "kids meal time" and "adult meal time" We just have "family meal" time, and if daddy can't make it at that time, he can eat later.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

Just wanted to chime in quickly and say that my ds used to do those awful rages. Whew...it was terribly exhausting. 3 or 4 hours each, 3 or 4 hours a day. Makes my stomach sink just thinking about it. I cuddled him and comforted him and validated and all that stuff. But, it didn't help ds...it just made it much worse. I think he may be a "sensory seeker", too, though I've not really researched it much. He needs hard physical contact, rough-housing...he thinks bumping into things or destroying stuff is absolutely hilarious...the tireder or hungrier he gets the worse it gets...he gets SO destructive and violent, and then he's impossible to deal with. I know he needs to eat, but he won't because he's gotten into a mood and there we are. Sometimes I wonder if it's low blood sugar or something.

Anyway, I'd distract, bribe, give chocolate, whatever it took for a while. He was too little to understand, and I was too exhausted to do anything but make peace. I remember nights on the floor with a tiny, but strong boy raging and tantruming throwing himself across me, while I tried to ignore him and get a little sleep. I would turn on a movie (I'm mostly anti-TV!) just to distract him...anything...anything...I once spent an hour playing all the ring tones on my phone in the middle of the night just trying to get through one of his "moods". Whew...

So, what worked for us? Well, Mama got tough. I decided he needed a lot less validating and lot more boundaries. He's so happy when he knows there is someone in control of things. Not in a mean kind of way, but I absolutely mean business these days, and it's helped SO much. I require that he talk nicely to me (or go sit somewhere else until he can), and it doesn't matter to me if he is tired or hungry. He must talk nice to me (well, to everyone.)

If I give him food and he refuses it, yet I know he NEEDS to eat, he goes to sit until he can be sweet again. I don't hold him or cuddle him. I gently pick him up and remove him, and then tell him when he can come back (when he is calm and ready to try again.) I think it's okay for a parent to say, "You are hungry. You feel crazy because you are hungry. You have to eat something so that you will feel better." And then require that they do it. I like to let my kids run as free as possible, but if they were ill, I would require they accept treatment, mostly. If their bodies have a need, I feel it's my job to be sure it happens. Not meanly, but it's okay to have boundaries and help kids fit between them. DS is sure happier since I started that. He's not quite 2.5, btw.

I think your dh is on track. If he won't eat, tell him ONE time, and then move his food. Tonight ds didn't want his cake, of all things. He wanted to be whiney about it and all. I said, "Are you going to eat your cake? If you aren't, Mama will." He ate it. It's important for your children to believe you. If you say you are going to do something, and don't, effectively, you've lied to him. It may be awful for a few days, but once he knows that you will do what you say, it will get better.

I feel like that was rambling, but it's late and I'm in a hurry. HTH some, and didn't come across as being horribly authoritarian or mean...it really can be done in a gentle, loving way.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I have to agree with Just1more.

I think you are enabling the behavior. He knows he can act this way so he is.

He either sits down and eats or goes play. It is ok to have a standard. I did. We did not eat while walking around. We don't be rude.

Now saying this don't expect perfect behavior, but at the same time to expect him to behave.


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## walking burp cloth (Feb 19, 2008)

SactoMommy-

At my daughters school, they have these cushions for children that deal with sensory issues. My daughter included. They are round flattish cushions filled with air and have little bumpy things on the surface. This allows them to be in their chair, yet still wiggle. I will look and see if I can find a link with a picture.

My daughter has delt with this kind of raging since she was little. She is 8 now, and still deals with this. I mostly know her triggers. (some of which are allergy related.) But I need to be ON THE BALL if I sense something coming. If I don't have my act together (which is more often than I'd like to admit) then we go down that road, and we both come out feeling horrible. She is to the age that we can usually talk through things, but sometimes........ Anyways, we are still figuring things out.

My husband deals with things very differently. He used to try to lay down the law, and I could see how that never worked. But the thing is, eventually, so could he. He really had the opportunity to figure some things out. I would of course, when we were alone, point out some things to him. Talk to him about what her deeper emotional needs might be, etc. It took a while, and he is still working on things too, but often times I will find him making her a cup of tea. or drawing her a bubble bath.

Is your husband trying these things out of a heart of love for your LO? If so, I think it is OK for him to try different things. I also think it is OK to give some loving imput while you are not in the moment, (and when there are no children around.) If he is doing this for his own convenience, this is a different matter.

huggs mama, I know how draining this is for you.

http://www.skillbuilders.com.au/defa...productlist%23


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Okay, so maybe I'm enabling him. I'm still working on striking balance between meeting his needs and not letting him run our lives, and believe you me, that line is hard to find with him.

Once again, I was asking about what to do in the midst of the crisis, not what to do about discipline. Requiring him to sit at the table and eat or to not care one way or the other doesn't make a difference as to whether or not he throws the tantrum. It's about putting him food away, not whether or not he has to sit still. I'm trying to come up with the way that gets the most amount of food into him so that he can chill. Last night I set up our pillow pile on the floor so he could intermittently jump in it and take a few bites. When he had gotten some food in his stomach (and burned off some of his steam from the transition to dad being home) he was able to sit and finish his dinner.

I talked to DH last night about this and we really are on the same page with what to do during a tantrum. We made a rule to only step in if it seemed like the parent dealing with it was getting frustrated. I talked to him specifically about the guilt thing and he really didn't mean it that way, although he saw how it could be taken that way.

He also thinks I am enabling the behavior. So yeah, I let him get away with some stuff, but I have to pick my battles very carefully or I will be saying no all day long.

And when he's in the midst of a tantrum, I know how to get him to stop. I'm not saying that the validating doesn't work, and I don't like defining success or failure on whether or not he stops screaming and flailing, either. I want him to feel heard and to safe to let his feelings out, whether or not it makes him stop raging. That's really what I'm talking about here.

Oy, I think I''m giing up here and eading over to special needs. I don't know how many ways to say that I am working on finding a better balance.


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

You and you dh sound like you have pretty good communication to me!
I just wanted to mention that even the pretty traditional, conservative child psychiatrist who gives parenting advice in our newspaper says children should not be expected to sit with adults at the dinner table until they are 4 or so. He recommends feeding children earlier and then the adults sitting down to eat dinner. So maybe you could really point that out to your dh.
I can't be that organized to do that everyday either. The later we eat the less my dss eat. They are even older than yours but dh comes home around 6 and that's when I make a big healthy meal. Dh is somewhat unreasonable in his expectations too and I feel he creates the situation for a potential tantrum way more often than I do because he just doesn't read the kids right or hasn't developed the right approach to toning things down.
I try to do an initial validation of feelings: "I can tell you are super angry about that" then if they don't seem to be able to calm down and they are getting into destruction mode or just being really unreasonably loud I often say "It's not ok to be doing _ you need to go calm down." If they go off and start destroying things or doing something that is unacceptable to me I will remove them and give them a time out....and things spiral from there since neither will stay in a time out...did I seem like I knew what I was doing








The thing that works the best actually, if I have the patience, is to try and come up with a compromise or solution. If I can keep myself from saying an immediate NO and ask them why or to clarify we can sometimes get through to each other.
My dss are 3 and 6 so we are also at a different stage than you.
I guess I would just ask my dh to stop doing the things I deemed the least effective and let him alone with the rest.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

And I don't think it's unreasonable to want a kid to sit with you for dinner either, but I have recently decided that it's unreasonable for MY kid. He's a sensory seeker, so when he gets tired and hungry, he truly CANNOT sit down.
There's your answer.

You say you want to talk about the tantrums and I understand. However, and I know you already know this, the best way to handle a tantrum is to avoid it in the first place. In this case, there are a lot of things to try so as to eliminate the situation that leads to the tantrum.

If your son is not eating his diner, then save his portion and serve it to him at lunch. If that's not possible, have him eat healthy snacks and call that his evening meal. Some people are grazers or maybe it's a phase he's in.

Best of luck.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

My child has sensory issues. I'm positive it's not the usual tantrums the op is talking about, not that tantrums in general are anything unusual at home. It's THE tantrum that is actually violent rage that is everything parents of these children work around preventing as much as possible. It's not a place where child nor parent need nor want to be. I am NOT saying that a child should not be allowed to get everything out and tantrum when he feels the need, but I DO mean that there is a way in avoiding to come to this point where only a freaky raging tantrum would solve the built in tension in the child that might have been avoided.

As I understand, the mother is not pressuring her child to eat, nor to eat the dinner she made, she is merely offering it AND keeping it available, nor she expects him to sit still (and eat) at dinner time during the whole meal. She feeds her child during the day, prepares a healthy balanced meal for dinner and WISHES for everyone to eat this dinner together, or at least for everyone to be peaceful together during dinner time, and not create any tantrum triggering situation.

I do think pps have been right in saying part of the problem stems from parental doings. But here I believe it is the dad expecting too much of this particular child in this age regarding how he perceives ideal dinnertime and the child is just not capable of in the moment.

When my child is just not capable to cope and/or comes to the point of utter and complete meltdown out of overstimulation/pressure/fear or anything else that could trigger his rages, what he needs is to get it all out. I am there and have him let it get out. It is damn HARD! But this and only this is what helps him. When it is out, he'll reach the point where he can calm down.
I Won't bribe him out of these episodes with activities, distractions, foods, because I see no advantage and it's not what he needs and it's definitely not whjat works. I do WANT for it to be over, but I know you can't force it to be over sooner than it is. Just finding out 'this is what is' when ds2 has an enormous meltdown helps in me coping better with him while it is going on, and it makes the difference between me or anyone else (who doesn't get this) dealing with him in a rage.

Dh got this too to some extent, and when I offer to deal with 'the rage' of ds2 he won't insist on dealing with it himself because he knows it is not a time to 'fix behaviour'. When I have difficulty 'getting through it' I may ask for his help when he's home. And yes, he deals differently with the children than I do sometimes.

But no hair on my head would think of creating such a situation on purpose, or doing something just knowing it would trigger him totally. That's not a place where he wants/needs to be and not one I'd like to experience too often, if possible.

OP, I think you received some good ideas regarding offering foods and indeed one of the things I mostly let go (but still goes against my being used to) is eating dinner typical foods at dinner or breakfast typical foods at breakfast.
Yesterday he wanted our dinner of the former day for breakfast (well tomato sauce excluded) and why not? He can have a breakfast food for lunch. As long as he doesn't stop eating or snacking, lol. I also like to eat tuna and that can be aby time of the day, while dh has aversion of tuna for breakfast. hat doesn't mean I shouldn't have t as breakfast, ykwım?

Maybe it could be good to have your dc have dinner time when your dh is not home yet (work around it with your schedule as much as you can), so dinner time as a full family won't be affiliated with struggle anymore and in few weeks time try to have dinner together again but release pressure about eating or sitting still

If my child would only want to eat at the small table when we would prefer to eat at the family table, I think of the result of doing the one or the other thing. One would mean we would all be in the same room communicating while we're all eating (and he is at least eating some), insisting on two would most likely mean no peaceful dinner for anyone and ds2 ending up not eating (wel) at all. Note: result is NOT that he'd always eat at the other table, he will eat with us at the family table most of the time (well not for long, but still he does!)







. Sometimes he will already eat some on his own before dinner time (of whatever foods I give him/he asks/takes, sometimes snack sometimes fruit/veggie/yoghurt,...), and may join us or dad for dinner again and may eat some more or not. What is important here is that he is offered a lot of SUGGESTIONS, but he is able to make CHOICES by himself. And yes, a 2yo can do this, too. That's what ds2 has been signaling to us as soon as he could get around, and that's what changed in the way we parent nowadays.

What's important here, is that you as a person also state your preferences and feel like you can make your choices, it's both a way of modeling to your child and and it tells your child about other people's boundaries (if you do not tell/model, he would not think there are any at all . So sitting still at the table may not be made a rule out of it, but you may explain him (over and over and over again if needed) it's the idea you have of family dinner because you ENJOY having dinner all together (which may change thinking from 'I HAVE to sit at the table and I do not want to have to', to 'it is nice to sit at the table with mom and dad in the evening because we're all home and we're together' etc.)
Also important is to realise that some things are just not such a big deal if you really think of it (like sitting at the table and eat then and there and that) and letting go.

About the severe tantrums, when my own ds2 is finally cooling/cooled down, what you should absolutely NOT do within the first 30 min after that, is ahum talk to him about the rage and/or be really careful in what you say or just even better not to speak to him much (counts both for me and bystanders). Because he's still very sensitive at that point. I've had situations where the volcano had stopped erupting and we were getting ready to 'mix into the world again' and in only seconds after the meltdown, people have been addressing to him/me about it and it cold trigger it so totally again (this even makes me upset on the inside) :-(.
Example: if ds raged about not wanting to eat his soup, went through a meltdown because of an issue was made out of it, and then it was 'over', and then it would be mentioned again to eat his soup within the 'dangerous' time frame, it may start him ALL over again. While, if you can be patient and have the soup just only available (may already be in the fridge) he may choose to eat it when he's ready and when he figures it's his idea completely.

I hope this was of help.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

So, here I am again.

Today we had another rage. I decided to try something new (can you believe it?!). I just knelt down on the floor where he was, told him that if he needed me to hold him to just ask, and sat there the whole time, quiet as can be. I can't believe it, but he calmed down so much faster. What the heck was I doing validating all this time?!

I think talking at him while he's trying to work it out somehow makes it harder for him to deal with. He just needs to know that I'm there, and that I will help him not to hurt himself, I guess. After he was done, he asked me to hold him, and I bounced him and held him really tight for a few minutes. He played with my hair and then it was like it never happened. THEN I validated briefly that he was upset, and it was over.

And apparently the galloping around in circles really is necessary, even though it looks so bizarre that I get scared. Who knew.

I feel like today was a success, even though we had a really awful tantrum, and I feel like it didn't color our whole day because I was able to be calm. And I was able to pass on "new" information to DH and he likes the strategy, so it solved that problem as well.

And with dinner, I'm deciding that it's partly that dinner is almost immediately after DH gets home, which means transition time. Tonight I fed him before DH got home, he inhaled his dinner, and then he and DH went upstairs to jump on the bed before DH ate his dinner. It puts someone out for family dinner, but we'll find a way to get that somewhere else.

Thanks, all. I feel like a new person today. And I tried some of the things mentioned here, even though I was getting defensive and taking it all personally







. Just wanted to share our







.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Hooray! Great job, SactoMommy. Isn't great to find something that works!


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes, great job, momma!

There's some evidence that engaging in venting behavior will, over time, increase negative feeling and behaviors.

Granted, this is in regards to adults and using violence to blow off steam, but it does make some sense in not "validating" tantruming behaviors with the idea that the child simply needs to blow off steam. In short, angry behavior begets angry thoughts and behavior.

http://www.apa.org/releases/catharsis.html

It's good to see that you've found an alternative to long rages, though, for sure!


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## jnh896 (Dec 31, 2007)

Hooray to you for trying something different and getting a positive response! And the pp suggestion of breakfast as your family meal is great.

I hear you asking for concrete suggestions for the rages, not the food. It is so hard to separate out each piece of the puzzle when everything is so complex and interconnected.

I suggest you try "The Happiest Toddler on the Block" by Dr. Harvey Karp (who wrote the Happiest Baby on the Block) If you read reviews on amazon, you will see they are quite mixed. You will either completely love or completely hate his theory. And, depending on where you are on the AP scale, he may really offend you But, try to keep an open mind and not discount the theory without at least giving it a try and see if it works for your family.

His theory is definitely a hard concept to grasp. Perhaps the DVD would help the visualization of it in action in real life, but I've never watched it. Maybe you can get both at the library to give it a trial.

I will admit that it felt really weird and awkward the first time I tried it with DD, but it worked just like the book said it would. All of a sudden she was laughing instead of having a tantrum. To me, this is an effective "distraction" technique because it accomplishes my immediate objective - stop the tantrum. We can work on managing our feelings, appropriate ways to express them without stuffing/denying them, how they affect other people, etc. later. You can't learn anything when you are in "fight or flight" mode because the brain is shut down so your body can concentrate on getting out of your perceived danger. To me, a toddler temper tantrum is basic survival mode when they've been reduced down to this for whatever reason. (Food, toys, bedtime...whatever the trigger may be.)

I don't use it everyday or even every week. I've never used in out in public (yet) because, well yeah, I would feel very self-conscious doing so. But sometimes reasoning and rationalizing and comfort just makes things much worse for my DD. The more I talk or try to fix the problem, the worse it gets. That's when I use this technique. I have no idea how it works, but it really does seem to help her feel heard and understood and validated. I do not feel that is demeaning to her or me in any way, but I can see how some people would feel that it is.

Now onto your DH - don't have much help to offer here except that I hear what you are saying. DH is always asking me, "Why does she do that?" Yes, my pat answer of "Because she's 3" seems like a cop-out sometimes. But, I hope that if I keep saying it, then DH will finally realize that he is asking an unanswerable question. Tonight, I had the energy to include "and she is just learning how to function independantly in the world. She is testing the boundaries and limits to learn what she has control over and what she doesn't right now." (This particular issue was becaus he wanted to give her a goodnight hug and she did not want one and said "don't touch me." This hurts his feelings, which I understand. DH travels for work and he is very sensitive that she will forget him when he is gone. However, in the long-term, I *do* want DD to feel that she is the only one in control of her body and can speak up and say "don't" whether it is to a family member, friend, stranger, or predator. So I don't feel compelled to swoop in and tell her, "don't say that to Daddy" or "that hurts Daddy's feelings" to make DH feel better in the short-term.)

My DH is a logical, linear thinker so the "gray" areas are hard for him. He also wants problems fixed. Now. Once and for all. It's hard for him to remember that child development is a long process that may not follow a straight line up. Probably true for a lot of DH's, maybe yours included. It does sound like your lines of communication are open though. It does get stressful when the bickering starts twhen you are on opposite ends of the "what should we do?" scale. It's hard. You are not alone in that.

Sometimes I feel like I have to navigate between *two* 3 year olds ( a tall one and a short one) to keep the family content and balanced. When DH gets an idea in his mind, he is quite determined about it...just like DD having the tantrum. I can be that way too. It just seems like the Moms are usually the mediators between children and spouses for the sake of the family life. I'm not trying to be stereotypical about all men, this is what's true for my family.

Speaking of boundaries, another great book (IMO) about the subject is by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. They have one about adult relationships and one specifically for boundaries with children. They are Christian authors with a clincal psychology background. I did not find their tone to be "preachy" or "judgmental", just solutions-oriented. Of course, I don't know where you are on the religious spectrum, but if you in any way consider the Bible a reference guide for your life (maybe not the only one or even the most important one) or if you can tolerate a viewpoint that includes the Bible as a reference, then I recommend that you give these books a try.

I know, I know - who has time to read.







Hope this helps. You will find a creative solution that works for your family. Good luck!


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Thanks, jnh896. We did try Dr. Karp's stuff at around 18mo. I had good success with it for about 2 mo, and then it really just stopped working. I haven't been able to re-instate it, but I think all the validating over and over was coming from that method. I still think that method is too focused on ending the tantrum and less focused on letting the child work through their emotions, but it worked for the pre-verbal stage.


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