# I think this goes here...? Why do people do this?



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I am not entirely sure if this goes here, in Talk Amongst, GD, or unschooling. LOL! Here goes:

My kids are 17 and 19, so this isn't so much about them in the present as much as it is about how I parented when they were wee. It's also about other kids in my life that are still young yet.

My approach: if it's cold/wet/otherwise wonky weather I may make mention of such to a child when we are preparing to go outside or leave for awhile. I might say "Hey, it's kind of wet and cold outside. You may want to grab a coat/hat/scarf/etc." or that it's supposed to get cold and wet and that I'd hate for them to be uncomfortable unnecessarily later on should they not have it. I may mention that we can toss it in the trunk or a backpack, etc. In other words, it's never an order or a big huge deal.

So, what if they choose not to bring jackets and etc and are cold later? Well, in some cases I have grabbed the stuff anyway thinking ahead, and in some cases I haven't. And they were cold. It was never a pre planned "lesson teaching", but if it happened we talked about the obvious, I tried to warm them up and we moved on. In the future, should the same situation arise, I might say "So hey, remember that time we didn't take the coat and really sucked? Yeah.. might want to grab it." Again, no drama, no arguing, no told you so, no punishments. To me, this kind of discussion is so super invaluable.

Why do parents/adults and kids fight about this!? At a ritual recently I witnessed a total meltdown between parent and child over this. It was about 48 degrees or so, very light rain and child (about 7) didn't want to put the mittens and scarf on. They were already wearing a hoodie. What followed was parental cajoling, threatening, yelling, sadness, and so on. Now, I surely don't mean to judge this parent that I don't even know. The Gods know I've had my moments of awfulness, mostly in public, and I couldn't explain those now if I tried. I don't mean to sound nasty at all. and I am fully aware that any number of other things could have been at work there. That being said, I couldn't help but silently go through that situation as I would have w my kids and felt badly they weren't able to reach that place right then....

So we have a young friend who visits us. Home is a hard place right now, and we like being a good place to be. He is 10.5 yrs old. We live in the Pac NW, and it rains from Oct to April here on a regular basis, and is rather chilly for much of that. I have handled the coat thing with young friend the same way I did with my own kids. AKA: Here is the situation that is or may develop in the near future, here are the tools and how you might use them, and please feel free to ask me any questions or for help along the way should you need it.  So young friend and I on a strange kinda warm day (58 degrees ha!) were standing out in the rain with the dogs for a few minutes. It was a freakish 5 minute hard down pour, and it was awesome. My partner's parents (we are staying on their property atm) freaked about him not having a coat and hat on. I was thinking, "I'll go alert the freaking media..." Also, I don't see a little rain or a short amount of time spent outside in chilly or windy weather without a coat as the end of the world. Clearly, if a child is uncomfortable or in an unhealthy/dangerous situation we do what we reasonably can, but I've never heard of a disaster from a child being wet from rain. Who wants to live in a world without rain falling on you anyway?









If a child knows what is up, and knows what to do if he is cold, in pain, etc... what's the issue?


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

A lot of people take a very controlling, authoritarian approach to parenting. I'd even say it's the mainstream way in some regions of the country. So the child not wanting to dress appropriately for the weather seems like a challenge or a discipline issue to them, and not a common sense/safety issue. And so they fight about it.

Another possibility is the common misconception that you can catch a cold from being, well, cold. So you'll hear people say things like, "You put a coat on this instant before you catch your death of cold!" etc.

For really little ones, I enforce coats, hats, and mittens, because mine are still pre-verbal or not verbal enough to tell me when they're getting too cold or their fingers/toes are getting numb. And we live in a really cold, wintry climate, so dressing for the weather isn't something they get to opt out of. But as they get older, I'll be handling it the way you described, because I very much believe that letting children experience the natural consequences of their choices (within reason, obviously) is a much more effective teaching tool than screaming, "Because I said so!"

Or, as Herbert Spencer said, "The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of his folly is to people the world with fools."









Ask me again in a few years when I've actually started putting this into practice...


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

I've seen this, too, and I don't get it, either. It reminds me of parents who are too obsessive about their child not eating their entire meal.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Well, we spend a lot of time outdoors traveling from one place to another, with little shelter in between. When one member of the family is miserable due to weather, the whole family suffers. People who are miserable slow the process, because suddenly the issue becomes not traveling, but dealing with that person's misery.

I don't argue about coats and hats when we are leaving the apartment, but I will carry such items with me and when certain individuals realize that they need them, then we put them on. I generally don't like to argue about this kind of stuff, but I won't let someone slow us down due to their discomfort. Soon enough they'll catch the drift.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

I think it is also the fear of being labeled a "bad parent" for letting the child go out without "proper" outerwear. "What will people think" of my parenting skills if Junior is not wearing a heavy overcoat, galoshes, mittens and a hat?


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

For the little kids, it's because they may really and truly not want the hat/gloves/coat/boots, however... they also are going to want a) me to carry them; b) to go home sooner and not run the errands that need running. I will just take the stuff along though rather than argue about it most of the time, but when it's sleeting and gross outside, having to stop outside to finish dressing them now that they've FINALLY decided to wear the gear is extremely annoying.

As to "how cold is cold," that's all relative to your area. I went last year from NY in the teens and twenties to Arizona in the high 60s. In NY, it was all coats and hats. In Arizona, there was us in long sleeves, but no stockings under skirts; and the people who live there year round in winter coats and hats. They were very sure we'd "catch our death of cold."


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I honestly don't get it, until I think about ds2. I think he has sensory issues, but whatever it is...he'll put on a sweatshirt, sweatpants and boots when it's 35 degrees (Celsius) outside...and shorts, t-shirt and crocs when there's snow on the ground. He doesn't seem to be able to monitor his own body processes, either (eg. frequently thinks he's hungry/thirsty when he's actually tired, or hungry when he's actually thirsty - things like that). If we don't "make" him dress appropriately (eg. "take off the heavy clothes or you can't play outside right now"), he'll make himself ill or catch a chill or whatever...and he does not put it together the next time it happens, even with our help and guidance. So...I tend to do this with him more than I normally would.

OTOH...dd1 used to go out in a princess dress, boots and her big brother's Tae Kwon Do helmet, so I'm obviously not really anal about this topic.


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

My 4 yo DD refuses to wear a coat, even when it's 15 degrees out. Instead she just complains about how cold she is! So I made her a blanket poncho out of two layers of fleece and she wears that happily. Must be something about sleeves. Anyway, when my DS was about 3, he didn't like his parka, and preferred a hooded fleece. One day we went to the post office and it was brutally cold (like below 0F) and DS was wearing his fleece. Some man had the nerve to say to me, "Why isn't he wearing a parka? It's too cold for just that." I jokingly said that he didn't like his parka and wouldn't wear it. This man had the nerve to get up in my face and say, "You're his MOTHER. It's your job to MAKE him wear it, whether he likes it or not!" So yes, some people can be very controlling about what their kids wear.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I am only picky when we are going for a hike. My son still rides in the Kelti at this point so he needs to wear a hat, mittens, snowboots, and his snowsuit. Since he wants to go on the hike as much as we do, it is never an issue of "force." Out and about running errands and such? I am not picky at all. We will be outside at most two minutes and live in a densly populated area so if we did break down there would be no worries either.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Thanks for all the replies everyone! It helps to view these things through the eyes of many I guess.

I think the idea that parents will worry about what others will think about their parenting should the child not wear a jacket is a good point. It also shed light on why I never really dealt with that... by and large I just never cared about that aspect. I understand how hard it can be to feel judged though.

I was thinking more on the difference between little little ones (pre or mostly pre verbal, conversational) and bigger kids. With truly little kids I just talk about it and grab it for them, whatever. With bigger kids? I may do it just the same. I think the difference I am seeing (IRL) is that with the bigger kids parents are reluctant or unwilling to take the coat for them, fearing they may lose some lesson or something I suppose.

My partner said he suspects it's also maybe a generational thing. Many of the folks we see getting super worked up about this are in their 50's and upwards. He said that when he was a kid, say 11 yrs old in 1987, his parents hardly knew where he was let alone if he had a bloody jacket on & now they are among the most concerned about kids and coats LOL.

Peace, Un


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## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

Northern New England mom here -- our line was always if being exposed to the weather was a safety issue. Otherwise, no big deal. We always had a bag of extra just-in-case clothes, snacks (food allergies made that a bigger deal than it might have been), etc., and pulled them out if one of the boys changed his mind about what he was wearing. Both grew up being able to self-regulate pretty well, though the younger one wants to go away to school where it's 70 degrees Fahrenheit year-round!

Just saw your Post #10, OP, and I've run into surprise or agree-to-disagree from other parents who wouldn't have taken a jacket or something as backup. I think people worried that our (older) kids would learn to be irresponsible, though I chose to spin it as my modeling responsibility for them to take on when they were ready. So far, so good -- they're ambitious, compassionate, hard-working guys.


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## Shaki (Mar 15, 2006)

Where we live it's very cold. We just recently got a car, but before we had a car we took public transport or walked. In the winter I do make sure my DD has on
"proper" outdoor clothes. We do sometimes argue about it. In the shoulder seasons I allow her more freedom to decide on her outerwear, but not in the winter and especially not when we are traveling on foot or by bus (if it's getting in the car and then driving to an indoor location I can be more flexible).

BUT my new years resolution is to not get involved in, comment on, or try to control what she wears as far as indoor clothes go. I've told her that as long as it's weather appropriate she calls the shots. I had to make this resolution because she has become very particular about what she wears--often making passionate choices about clothes that I don't understand at all and that she can't explain. It's been driving me CRAZY!!! It started to remind me of when she first started potty training and i'd be asking her all the time if she needed to go to the bathroom and freaking out if she refused, then one day I decided to back off entirely and we were both much happier, and she went ahead and potty trained just fine without me flapping around in the background like a crazy woman.

So anyway I guess I see both sides. I've drawn a line at weather appropriate but as far a fashion choices she's calling the shots.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Well, I tend to be more on the authoritative end of the scale, but this is not something I argue with the kids about. If they're going to be out in the freezing cold and snow for hours (like today) the choice is either wear full snow gear or stay home and miss the fun. If we're just running errands, I let them stick their noses out the door to see how cold it is, and then they pick their own level of warmth, and suffer the consequences if they know it's cold but choose not to wear something warmer.

I do think people worry about being percieved as a bad parent if the kid isn't fully decked out head to toe in winter wear when it's cold. I got harassed for not putting socks on my baby in August, so I'm sure some people have an opinion about parents who let their kids wear only sweatshirts or something in winter. And definitely worrying about health is a big issue for lots of people, I'm sure.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If it's dangerously cold, like below 0 F with a windchill far below, where I have to worry about frostbite or something, then I'll fight this battle, but otherwise I just grab the stuff and bring it with me and they can put it on when they feel cold enough.


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## JollyGG (Oct 1, 2008)

I live in an area where -40 is not uncommon in the winter. Bad things really will happen if you don't dress appropriately for the weather and they will happen in a very short amount of time. The weather can also change dramatically in the course of a day. We've had days where coats and hats were necessary for the walk to school but shorts would have been more appropriate for afternoon recess in the fall and spring. So my child does not have the forsight or ability to figure it all out. Some days I don't either. We turn the weather channel on in the morning to try and figure out how to dress ourselves and the kids during certain times of the year.

Also my kids go to school and daycare. They are away from me for large portions of the day. So just bringing it with aren't viable options. I need them to have it themselves. Which means we may have to fight a bit about if he really does need to tuck that jacket in his backpack or not in the morning before we leave our own separate ways.

So yes outdoor wear is something I'm willing to turn into a battle. I think sometimes it becomes such a habit that it's in place during the parts of the year where their wear isn't really as much of an issue and that it can be difficult to step back and say "You know it's not February, there are not life threatening dangers to dressing inappropriately and I should let this go". If you are used to the fight many just keep fighting it.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ananas*
> 
> I've seen this, too, and I don't get it, either. It reminds me of parents who are too obsessive about their child not eating their entire meal.


I was just about to bring this up. Our son is still young, but I see so many food battles even for kids around his age! He still 15 mos, so I feel it's my responsibility to put him in a hat even if he cries about it. But food? I feel like he's plenty clear about what he wants to eat and when.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Some people might not have the parenting skills to know other ways to handle something like that. They simply may never have seen another perspective on it or know that they have options. Sometimes it's hard to step back and question how you were raised and what you're doing, it can be scary or confusing to step away from that "control" mentality. I try not to judge too harshly because of that.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

People are also strongly affected by personal experience. If they ever had frostbite as a child, or if they were stuck places very cold, they might feel more strongly about it. All parents probably have some trigger or another based on their experiences. I try to let those kinds of things go because of my personal parenting philosophy of "relax, most things aren't that important" (see thread about parenting philosophies/mantras), but I know I'm human and there are probably areas where I could relax more but have trouble due to some experience of mine.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> I was thinking more on the difference between little little ones (pre or mostly pre verbal, conversational) and bigger kids. With truly little kids I just talk about it and grab it for them, whatever. With bigger kids? I may do it just the same. I think the difference I am seeing (IRL) is that with the bigger kids parents are reluctant or unwilling to take the coat for them, fearing they may lose some lesson or something I suppose.


Yup, this is us too. We live in New England and yeah it gets cold but clothing has never been worth a power struggle.

When our son was really young/pre verbal I just went with the flow. I would say "Brrr, its pretty cold out, lets get our coats/hat/mitten before we head outside". Most times he would let me dress him and off we went. If he struggled I just brought the stuff with us and offered again later.

When he was a toddler I let him decide and talked about how the windchill makes us colder, how wet jeans were no fun after a few sled rides but wearing snow pants keep us warm, etc. I never "taught him a lesson" in a negative way since I still felt (at that age) it was my responsibility so I made sure we packed a bag of what we needed and would offer again if I saw signs of cold. No guilt trips either.

Now that he is 9 I trust him to make his own decisions and deal with the consequences. We still talk about the weather (and are both weather.com junkies, LOL) but I trust him to pack what he needs for school, sports, etc. He is pretty good about throwing an xtra sweatshirt in his back pack but he runs hot so often doesn't have a coat/hat/gloves. I get lots of







from other adults when they see him out playing.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

I think an interesting thing that no one has mentioned is that generally, our tolerance for cold gets lower as we age. I remember walking around as a teenager, coat unzipped, no hat, and feeling totally comfortable. Now, being slight of build and a tender but old age of 47, I get cold rather quickly...bone-chilling cold. I think we try to push our own limitations on the kids, who, in my opinion, have a much different metabolism than we do as adults. Sometimes I'm sitting around the apartment freezing my toushe off and my DD is running around in her underwear, sweating. Still, and like other posters mentioned, we live in a very cold winter climate. DD is only four and I feel that more often than not, I need to make decisions for her from a safety standpoint. Again, it is not so much an argumentative decision as much as an "I will carry and accommodate when necessary" decision. I think when she gets older she is more likely to understand the ramifications of her decisions. Until then, I have to guarantee, in some respect, her comfort when we are out in the elements.


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EviesMom*
> 
> For the little kids, it's because they may really and truly not want the hat/gloves/coat/boots, however... they also are going to want a) me to carry them; b) to go home sooner and not run the errands that need running. I will just take the stuff along though rather than argue about it most of the time, but when it's sleeting and gross outside, having to stop outside to finish dressing them now that they've FINALLY decided to wear the gear is extremely annoying.
> 
> As to "how cold is cold," that's all relative to your area. I went last year from NY in the teens and twenties to Arizona in the high 60s. In NY, it was all coats and hats. In Arizona, there was us in long sleeves, but no stockings under skirts; and the people who live there year round in winter coats and hats. They were very sure we'd "catch our death of cold."


I have an aunt who was born and raised in Phoenix. I still remember her sitting inside the air conditioning at a family reunion in Massachusetts because it was "too cold" outside in the 90 degree, 85% humidity Massachusetts summer air. I thought she was totally nuts. Since then, I've visited AZ a few times in the summer where I was dreading the 110 degree heat. Turns out I was actually cold, even though the air was a solid 20 degrees above what I had been getting back home (which I think is due to the dry air evaporating my sweat so quickly that I didn't even realize I was getting dehydrated). Thinking back, it seems like my aunt had been mistaking the clammy feeling of humid sweat-skin for being "cold", which is why she felt warmer inside.

Anyway, ITA that temp is pretty relative. I can see making and issue of it if your 4 year old doesn't even want to bring a coat when it's -10 degrees, but most of the time when I hear comments it's only sort of borderline and not really "danger zone" weather. This always happens in the fall here...what I and my kids think is "hoody weather" gets us nasty looks when we don't have the kids totally decked out in hats and scarves. They'll grab them if they're cold, and sometimes they do, but people act like I'm letting them join the polar bear club or something.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

This is a hard one for me because I am very sensitive to cold. I get extremely uncomfortable if I'm the least bit cold. I can't stand to be without a sweater if it goes below 70 degrees F. Seriously. If someone puts their cold feet on me, it is truly painful. Because of that, I worry about my children being in pain because they are cold. I don't struggle with them about getting all bundled up, though. I struggle with my own fears when they don't.

I have neighbors who truly believe people will get sick just from being outside in the rain or cold weather without a coat. It amazes that there are still people today who believe that but they do. We had a discussion about that just the other day because my 6yo has just this year started wearing long sleeved shirts and a coat. My neighbor told me they wondered how he never got sick running around in shorts all the time, not to mention never wearing shoes in the summer. My 6yo ds is picking this up. He came in yesterday pretend sneezing and saying he caught a cold from being outside in the cold. That led to a good discussion on what really causes cold and who they are caught/passed from one person to another.

Once when my now 6yo was 4 or 5, he went to the grocery store with me in shorts and a t-shirt in the winter. You would not believe the nasty looks I got from people. I overheard one woman saying something about neglect and how could a parent let a child out like that in this weather. DS did not appear cold at all and he didn't complain one bit. I did have long pants, another shirt and a coat in the car in case he did get cold. He never asked for any of them.

He learned pretty quickly this year with the much colder than normal weather that crocs with no socks probably isn't the best idea when playing outside. He now puts on 2 pairs of socks and his snow boots whenever he goes out.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spring Lily*
> 
> Some people might not have the parenting skills to know other ways to handle something like that. They simply may never have seen another perspective on it or know that they have options. Sometimes it's hard to step back and question how you were raised and what you're doing, it can be scary or confusing to step away from that "control" mentality. I try not to judge too harshly because of that.


I think to say that people who don't have parenting skills b/c they insist on their children wearing warm clothing is very judgemental.

My ds hates wearing his coat, but I do force him to wear it. We walk or take the bus everywhere we go (no car), and I often have lots to carry, so I don't carry his coat and then stop and put everything down so that I can put his coat on while we both freeze. We walk at least a mile daily, and in the winter it can be very windy and very cold, and I'm not going to let him freeze just b/c he doesn't want a coat.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm sure my kids' teachers shake their heads at what my kids wear. I was just thinking this afternoon that I want to send a note to my children's school saying "My children do own weather appropriate rain coats. They choose to wear their hoodies instead. It's not worth a fight every morning, and if it's really raining hard, you have indoor recess anyway, so it's a moot point." They're 6 and 9. They're largely responsible for their own clothing choices. Dd went off to a friend's house yesterday in sandals+ socks (a very Pacific NW look!). It was raining. I said: "Your socks might get wet." "It's OK," was her reply. Fine by me. Really.

I think it's a combination of a lot things -- the folk belief that getting cold/wet leads to getting sick, wanting to protect your child from being uncomfortable, not wanting to be judged as 'bad parents' and the belief that once you've made a 'rule' you have to stick to it to maintain your authority. It's really hard as a parent to say "please put on a coat" and have your child say "no, I don't want to" and then let it slide. We've been trained (culture? parenting beliefs? something else?) that we're supposed to be in charge and we're not supposed to let our kids 'get away' with stuff or to defy us. It was a very freeing moment for me to realize that sometimes I could change my mind and say "yes" or let it go, and my kids would not run roughshod over me.


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> This is a hard one for me because I am very sensitive to cold. I get extremely uncomfortable if I'm the least bit cold. I can't stand to be without a sweater if it goes below 70 degrees F. Seriously. If someone puts their cold feet on me, it is truly painful. Because of that, I worry about my children being in pain because they are cold.


My mother is at least honest. She says, "I'm cold, please put on a sweater." LOL

She also always insisted on me bringing appropriate clothing for whatever situation I might encounter. So, tiny skirts and heels were totally okay, but pants and sneakers went in the trunk with a coat. Thinking ahead.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

As the mom of a kid with sensory issues and anxiety, I sometimes parent him differently than I would if he didn't have either of those things. I hope people give me the benefit of the doubt whren they see me do things like make him wear something warm when he doesn't want to or try really hard to get him to eat something when he is tantruming and saying he doesn't want to eat. What I know about my kid, and people casually observing couldn't possibly know, is that he doesn't feel things like cold and hunger in the way most people do because of his sensory stuff. It won't register with him and he won't have th typical reaction of wanting to put on something to keep warm in cold weather. What I have also figured out about my child is that when he is cold for extended periods and wet (and we just moved from a place where it rained a lot), he did get sick. Soooo, since it doesn't register with him that he feels cold and he doesn't respond to that in the typical way and because I can see far enough into the future what our life will be like if he does get sick, I sometimes do get into a big thing with him to get him to weat a coat or whatever. I am sure people have wondered why I make a big deal out of things in the past and I am sure there are plenty of parents who make their kids dress warmly for other reasons, but you never know why people do what they do.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> It's really hard as a parent to say "please put on a coat" and have your child say "no, I don't want to" and then let it slide. We've been trained (culture? parenting beliefs? something else?) that we're supposed to be in charge and we're not supposed to let our kids 'get away' with stuff or to defy us. It was a very freeing moment for me to realize that sometimes I could change my mind and say "yes" or let it go, and my kids would not run roughshod over me.


My dh has a hard time with this. He was raised very much with the mindset that Dad set the rules and everyone else just went along. There was no discussion, no asking what anyone else thought or wanted. No one could express disagreement. Him being in the military where he gives orders and everyone just says, "Yes, sir!" makes it even harder for him.

Quote:


> My mother is at least honest. She says, "I'm cold, please put on a sweater." LOL


I've said similar things. I used to force my now 19yo to wear his winter coat to school. I found out later that he'd take it off as soon as he got to the bus stop no matter how cold I thought it was outside. Two lessons I learned from that. First, I can't really control what anyone else does. Two, not everyone feels the same way I do all the time.

To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?

My middle ds was diagnosed with SPD. He's the one who went to the grocery store in the middle of the winter in shorts, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He is figuring out what is comfortable for him and what isn't without me forcing him to do what I think is best for him. It took him freezing his feet while he was outside playing one day to decide that maybe socks and warm shoes are a good idea when the temperature is in the 30s F. Nothing horrible happened, though. His feet hurt from the cold and he cried a little about it but he didn't get gangrene and lose toes or anything like that. Do I wish he hadn't felt that pain? Of course. As a mother I don't ever want my children to feel pain. It's impossible to make that happen, though, and most times people need to experience things for themselves. As for coats, he will wear his thin, fleece jacket but cannot stand to wear either of his thicker winter coats. He says they feel bumpy and he doesn't like it. I even bought him one that's not puffy but still has some quilting that he picked out. It's the kind that has the fleece inner that can be taken out so both pieces can be worn separately. The coat part is more of what I would call a shell. It's not really thick or puffy at all. He still doesn't like the way that feels.

I have so many little examples of that. My oldest ds was very particular about the kind of socks and underwear he would wear. He could not stand it when he felt the seam of a sock across his toes. He would only wear loose, cotton boxers, no boxer briefs and no woven boxers. Those are really hard to find for little boys. We can't have tags or anything the least bit stiff or itchy.

I had the opposite experience with my mother as a child. She never took my extreme sensitivity to cold seriously. She would make me go out in the cold to ski or sled or ice skate. When I cried that my feet hurt from the cold, she told me I was being silly and over-reacting and I would have to stay out there in pain. Some people can't stand being the least bit warm in the same way that I can't stand being the least bit cold. Since I don't know how they feel, I can't presume that they don't know what they are really feeling.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?
> 
> My middle ds was diagnosed with SPD. He's the one who went to the grocery store in the middle of the winter in shorts, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He is figuring out what is comfortable for him and what isn't without me forcing him to do what I think is best for him. It took him freezing his feet while he was outside playing one day to decide that maybe socks and warm shoes are a good idea when the temperature is in the 30s F. Nothing horrible happened, though. .


At least one person already said that their kid got sick multiple times from poor clothing choices and continued to make the same clothing choices in the same weather that got them sick. Even if it wasn't a serious illness and just made them cranky and irritable, that's not an okay thing to do to the rest of the family.

ETA: Also, I don't suppose the kids are complaining about being too hot. I think it's more like with your ds--he didn't feel cold so wore flip-flops then he froze after time had past, so started to put on socks and shoes even though he didn't feel cold. Only for the other posters' kids, that connection didn't click. The kids aren't uncomfortable in the coats, etc, that keep them from getting sick, they just didn't realize they need them because they also aren't uncomfortable without the coats, etc, at least at first.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?


I think sometimes stuff just doesn't connect. The same happens to adults with some things. If I'm severely overtired, I will get extremely anxious about all kinds of things, which then make it even harder for me to sleep. DH has said to me "I think the reason you're so anxious is actually that you need to sleep. I promise I'll take care of everything, just go take a nap." And low and behold, he's pretty much always right and after sleep nothing seems so worrisome. I think of the "I'm not cold/I'm not tired/I'm not hungry" thing similarly. Sometimes it actually means that, but sometimes it doesn't, and you get to know your own kids and what things trigger what behaviors.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
> 
> At least one person already said that their kid got sick multiple times from poor clothing choices and continued to make the same clothing choices in the same weather that got them sick. Even if it wasn't a serious illness and just made them cranky and irritable, that's not an okay thing to do to the rest of the family.
> 
> ETA: Also, I don't suppose the kids are complaining about being too hot. I think it's more like with your ds--he didn't feel cold so wore flip-flops then he froze after time had past, so started to put on socks and shoes even though he didn't feel cold. Only for the other posters' kids, that connection didn't click. The kids aren't uncomfortable in the coats, etc, that keep them from getting sick, they just didn't realize they need them because they also aren't uncomfortable without the coats, etc, at least at first.


I wonder if it's an age thing, too. I don't recall the ages of the kids mentioned here with sensory issues. It took my ds until he was almost 7 years old before he decided that he wanted to wear warmer clothes. I can't really say when he made the connection between how he feels and the clothes he wears. I did dress him more warmly when he was little and didn't have much to say about it. Once he really started to complain, though, I let it go. I also had to let him choose his own clothes. He won't wear jeans or pants because they bother him. He will only wear very soft athletic-type, fleece pants. He won't wear shirts that have those large plastic patches on them because he doesn't like the way they feel against his chest. I don't live in a usually very cold area, either. It's been unusually cold lately. Maybe my ds was just responding to the extreme cold and, if it were normal weather, he'd still be in shorts and flip-flops. LOL

My 3yo is very different. He doesn't mind wearing shoes. He asks for pants and long-sleeved shirts when we first get up in the morning.

I understand that it's no fun to have to deal with a sick child when it could have been prevented. I certainly didn't enjoy having to listen to my ds cry for several minutes because his feet were so cold they hurt. That could have been easily prevented. I doubt, though, that it was really the cold or wetness that caused the illness. We all know that germs cause illness, not weather, unless one gets so wet/cold that s/he develops hypothermia.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I understand that it's no fun to have to deal with a sick child when it could have been prevented. I certainly didn't enjoy having to listen to my ds cry for several minutes because his feet were so cold they hurt. That could have been easily prevented. I doubt, though, that it was really the cold or wetness that caused the illness. We all know that germs cause illness, not weather, unless one gets so wet/cold that s/he develops hypothermia.


Or sinus problems. Changes in the weather can have me with a horrible runny nose and stuffiness for days with no virus. It's completely possible to feel sick without being ill.

And I'm just as cranky and unpleasant with my "fake" cold as I am with real colds, the just don't last quite as long.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Well, we spend a lot of time outdoors traveling from one place to another, with little shelter in between. When one member of the family is miserable due to weather, the whole family suffers. People who are miserable slow the process, because suddenly the issue becomes not traveling, but dealing with that person's misery.


Same point I was gonna make. Have you taken a miserable child hiking? It ruins a good outing for a kid not to have warm coat when they suddenly remember they need one. So, if making sure they have one makes me a tyrant... so be it.

When I see kids in cold weather without coats and proper footwear, I think NEGLECT.


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## lari (Oct 25, 2010)

DS is 24 months and I bundle him up in freezing temps when we go outside to do barn work or play. Even so, he'll frequently take off his mittens or hat. If I'm busy and don't get them back on quickly his little hands get so cold and red and he'll start to get fussy. I'll offer to put his hats and gloves back on and he always says "no". Eventually I'll put them back on him anyway. He clearly does not seem to make the connection between his comfort level and what he's wearing. Until he does understand that cause and effect I will make him wear appropriate clothing. I'm really surprised other's toddler's are making this connection so early. I will ditto what's other's have said about hiking with a miserably cold child. Not to mention, have you ever gotten really cold hands or feet and then tried to warm up by just adding extra layers/gloves while outside? It is much more difficult to get comfrotable again, than if you just put on appropriate clothing to begin with. I don't see what the big deal is in making your child dress appropriately? DS fusses a lot more over bedtime or leaving playgrounds than he ever does in putting a coat on. Obviously if it's a older child I think you go by their maturity level in allowing them to make their own decisions regarding dress.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Quote:

It's not that I think his feelings are any less valid. It's more that I know he isn't feeling the cold, so doesn't respond in a way that keeps his body warm or healthy or however you want to say it by wearing a jacket or shoes, then gets sick from being wet and cold and then our family deals with poor sleep due to illness, staying home from things because we don't want to get other people sick, etc. As a child, he doesn't have the forethought to think that through (and we have spent tons of time talking about this, trying to learn to recognize these kinds of cues, going to OT, etc), but I do. It just isn't worth the price our family pays to go through all of that. And, believe me, I have experimented with this - I was firmly in the camp of letting kids choose their own clothes, food ,etc. I did let my kiddo go without the right clothes plenty of times, and that was how I learned that it doesn't work for our family system as a whole. If he wants to play in the park in rainy 40 degree weather in bare feet and a t-shirt for extended periods of time (which he wanted to do the other day), I know about him that he will most likely get sick. So, we are those people struggling with wearing proper footwear, rain jacket, etc. And, like I believe most parenting issues to be, it is a balancing act - his need for autonomy and learning to read his own physical cues balanced with his need to get outside and get exercise balanced with the fact that I don't want to deal with illness if I can avoid it.

Similarly with the food - he doesn't feel hungry, doesn't ask for a snack or food, starts to have a major tantrum, and then when I realize that he hasn't eaten in a while (and I do try to really keep on top of that, but sometimes I forget) he will insist he isn't hungry. I believe that he doesn't feel hungry, but I know from enough experience with him that getting some food in his body will completely turn around his mood. So, I try really hard to get him to eat something. Once he hasn't gotten to that point, he doesn't recognize what he needs, but I do. I know it probably looks pushy to others (if I had seen a mom doing what I do before I had my son, I would have thought she needed to lighten up).

From my perspective, it is all a balancing act. There are reasons a parent may do something that aren't apparent at first!



> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?
> 
> My middle ds was diagnosed with SPD. He's the one who went to the grocery store in the middle of the winter in shorts, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He is figuring out what is comfortable for him and what isn't without me forcing him to do what I think is best for him. It took him freezing his feet while he was outside playing one day to decide that maybe socks and warm shoes are a good idea when the temperature is in the 30s F. Nothing horrible happened, though. His feet hurt from the cold and he cried a little about it but he didn't get gangrene and lose toes or anything like that. Do I wish he hadn't felt that pain? Of course. As a mother I don't ever want my children to feel pain. It's impossible to make that happen, though, and most times people need to experience things for themselves. As for coats, he will wear his thin, fleece jacket but cannot stand to wear either of his thicker winter coats. He says they feel bumpy and he doesn't like it. I even bought him one that's not puffy but still has some quilting that he picked out. It's the kind that has the fleece inner that can be taken out so both pieces can be worn separately. The coat part is more of what I would call a shell. It's not really thick or puffy at all. He still doesn't like the way that feels.


I got minor frostbite on my calves and the front of my thighs in high school. The temp outside was in the single digits Fahrenheit, but like always I wore a pair of jeans rolled up to shorts length, a t-shirt, and a hoody to school. I had a bad day and decided not to take the bus home even though I lived 5 miles away, so I walked, thinking I would stop at a friend's house. Nobody was home when I got to that friend's house, so I kept walking. I don't remember feeling cold since I was walking pretty fast, but I do remember my cheeks, nose, and legs getting totally numb at one point. I'm basically pretty lucky that I didn't end up dead, because my body temp was extremely low when my neighbor saw me walking down the street (I was nearly home) and took me to the hospital. I was also very dehydrated, and I wasn't thirsty at all, and due to the cold they had real trouble finding a vein. Also, when my mom started FORCING me to take my coat to school after that, I would leave it in my locker or just stuff it in my book bag at the bus stop, even if I was cold. Being in the hospital overnight and having an IV didn't change anything in regards to how I clothed myself.

At the time I wasn't diagnosed, so they just considered me a stubborn troublemaker. I was pretty clearly a sensory kid though. My 2 year old now has similar issues, and thankfully he will wear a coat sometimes, but if he runs around a lot and FEELS warm right before we go out, he will refuse and then also get angry if I bring it to the car, since coats stay in the coat closet unless you are wearing them. I bring it anyway, and he tantrums when he sees it, but he cannot connect what he'll feel like after sitting still in a car for an hour to what he feels like after immediately running around and getting ready. In general, I will not force my interpretation of cold/hot on my kids, but things change when it is below freezing out. I know, for a fact, that some kids put the discomfort of certain clothing items over the discomfort of being dangerously cold.

I liken it more to those kids who don't feel pain and end up burning themselves and hurting themselves constantly. Their senses are not just a difference in calibration that should be respected and 200 years ago they probably wouldn't have even survived. When something doesn't hurt them, that doesn't mean that the thing happening to them is OK for them, it just means they don't feel it in the same way that others do. I wouldn't let a child in such a situation run their bath with only the hot tap, no matter how much they tantrumed and felt disrespected by my overriding his feelings on the matter. When it comes to over heating in 90 degree summer weather to the point of throwing up, I will make sure that cooler clothes get worn by my SPD son. When it comes to anything below freezing, I will make sure that warm clothes are always available no matter where we go, and a coat WILL be worn if we'll be in a situation where we will be in that cold for any length of time. These are extremes though, and I am more lenient with the non SPD kids, partially because walking outside once in 15 degree weather pretty much ensured they would never do it again. I don't have to worry about whether they will decide to be dangerously cold just because they feel stubborn that day, or because their coat is too puffy. I still get dirty looks for giving them all (even my SPD son) leeway in the mid-range temps, but unless we're talking extremes, I will not override how they feel.

This is probably very dependent on how extreme the temperatures are in your area, and what exact mixture of issues your child has though.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?
> 
> .


DS2 has caught bad chills (by which I mean a drop in body temperature, significant enough to affect him, but not to the point of actual hypothermia) in the cold, and has made himself nauseated/drowsy/mildly crampy in the heat. He will make, and has made, himself sick by dressing inappropriately for the weather. If my son is unable to process his own sensory input (and this is my best guess - he hasn't been formally evaluated, and I don't have an outside diagnosis of SPD) accurately enough to prevent illness and/or injury, then he needs my input to a degree that my other kids don't. It's not usually very cold around here, and ds2 will also usually come inside if there's nobody else to play with...but I could easily see him developing frostbite or hypothermia without even realizing anything was wrong. Likewise, I could see him making himself very, very sick with heatstroke in the summer.

ETA: I missd this part of your post:

It took him freezing his feet while he was outside playing one day to decide that maybe socks and warm shoes are a good idea when the temperature is in the 30s F. Nothing horrible happened, though. His feet hurt from the cold and he cried a little about it but he didn't get gangrene and lose toes or anything like that. Do I wish he hadn't felt that pain? Of course. As a mother I don't ever want my children to feel pain. It's impossible to make that happen, though, and most times people need to experience things for themselves.

DS2 doesn't learn from the kind of thing. He can make himself sick by overeating, overdressing in the heat, etc. and then do the exact same thing the very next day. If he'd learn by making the mistake once, I'd be great with handling it that way....but he doesn't.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

It's probably been addressed already, but DS is 4 and has SPD. Sensory issues cover a pretty wide spectrum, so where one kid with sensory issues might have mild issues with choosing clothing that reasonably matches environmental conditions, another child might put himself at real risk for injury. Some kids with sensory issues don't feel pain in a consistent or "normal" way. Last summer, DS was getting out of the car and put his hand on the frame as he was getting ready to jump down. He was well past the age where I checked fingers and toes for hair wrapped around them or anything like that, so I hadn't looked closely at his finger in a few days. When he put his hand on the frame in front of my face, I noticed that one of his fingers was swollen and GREEN down to the first knuckle. He never reported any pain or discomfort, but a hangnail had gotten infected and required a doctor's visit for treatment. So I pay pretty close attention to risk of sunburn, heat stroke, and frostbite, and there are times when I need to present the option of him either wearing certain clothes or not going, or simply wearing the clothes because I'm not willing to miss whatever thing we're going to.

We do try to have a couple of choices on hand for him in different fabrics, because he has variable-type SPD and what feels comfortable to him changes *constantly*. There are days when he's fine with choosing his own outfit, wearing socks and shoes/boots, a coat and mittens if needed, and it only takes a few promptings to get him in everything and out the door. There are days when the mere prospect of choosing something to wear sends him into a 45-minute screaming tantrum. Sometimes it comes to me putting him in clothes (or bringing them with us) and just getting the screaming child out the door and into a change of environment. If the tantrum is inevitable, at least a change of scenery can sometimes help shorten its duration.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 



> I doubt, though, that it was really the cold or wetness that caused the illness. We all know that germs cause illness, not weather, unless one gets so wet/cold that s/he develops hypothermia.


IME, both in my own life, and in observing my kids, being out in the cold and wet doesn't make one sick...but being out in that kind of weather for a long enough period of time, and without adequate protection, can make one more susceptible to illness. When I "catch a chill", I'm far more likely to catch whatever may be going around than if I haven't made myself so cold.

That said, I love cold weather, and have frequently spent time outside in "inadequate" clothing, in the eyes of other people. However, my sensory perceptions are pretty close to normal (I actually think I have mild SPD, but in the exact opposite direction from ds2 - he's a major sensory seeker, while I suspect I'm somewhat sensory avoiding), and if I start to get chilled, I'll know I'm getting too cold. DS2 won't and doesn't know any such thing.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

> I doubt, though, that it was really the cold or wetness that caused the illness. We all know that germs cause illness, not weather, unless one gets so wet/cold that s/he develops hypothermia.


Wow. I think I know my own experience well enough with my child to know that he does get sick from being too wet and cold for extended periods. I get that infections can be bacterial, in which case you need to pick up the germ somewhere. They can also be viral, laying dormant in your body (or you could pick up a new virus). Either way, at least in my child, cold and wet makes him more susceptible to illness. So, while, it is actually the virus or bacteria getting the kid sick, avoiding prolonged exposure to wet or cold can be enough to prevent illness - at least for us and that is why I sometimes push the issue of proper clothing.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Well, I'll tell you why I make the decision as to how warm/cool my children are dressed. First of all, they are too little to make that decision. I'm their parent, and so it's my job to make some decisions for them. The reason why I don't want my kids to get cold unnecessarily is because when your body is cold you are more likely to catch a cold because your immune system is weakened. Children are more sensitive to cold. It has nothing to do with being controlling or being afraid of others thinking im a bad mother at all. I've never had to "fight" with them over it either, it's just part of an outing.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


> I think it's a combination of a lot things -- the folk belief that getting cold/wet leads to getting sick, wanting to protect your child from being uncomfortable, not wanting to be judged as 'bad parents' and the belief that once you've made a 'rule' you have to stick to it to maintain your authority. It's really hard as a parent to say "please put on a coat" and have your child say "no, I don't want to" and then let it slide. We've been trained (culture? parenting beliefs? something else?) that we're supposed to be in charge and we're not supposed to let our kids 'get away' with stuff or to defy us. It was a very freeing moment for me to realize that sometimes I could change my mind and say "yes" or let it go, and my kids would not run roughshod over me.


I agree with all of the above. Especially the last line there.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


> My middle ds was diagnosed with SPD. He's the one who went to the grocery store in the middle of the winter in shorts, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He is figuring out what is comfortable for him and what isn't without me forcing him to do what I think is best for him.


My son, 19, has some issues with texture and so on. He wore shorts and tank tops and sandals when he was little, but then suddenly around 12 or so just totally stopped. Something happened and now he just flat out cannot stand shorts. If he goes swimming on a 95 degree day he will begrudgingly wear those long almost pants shorts. And he refuses flip flops. For 3 whole hot summers he wore a stocking cap, no kidding. People were actually really irritated by it, and I find that so fascinating! (I helped him to tell everyone that HE would know when it was time to take HIS hat off HIS head. lol) Anyway, totally relate to that with my Ds as well.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


> Same point I was gonna make. Have you taken a miserable child hiking? It ruins a good outing for a kid not to have warm coat when they suddenly remember they need one. So, if making sure they have one makes me a tyrant... so be it.
> 
> When I see kids in cold weather without coats and proper footwear, I think NEGLECT.


I have been hiking w. a miserable child, but it wasn't related to clothing. I do see your point, but in world I'd probably have just tossed an extra coat or gloves in a backpack with the water bottles before we set out. Maybe the coatless kid would decide they wanted it? Maybe someone would get cold or wet and need to change?

Do you really think neglect if you see a kid without a coat? At what temperature does it become such? I dunno... too many variables there for me.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> > When I see kids in cold weather without coats and proper footwear, I think NEGLECT


Neglect? Really?









If that is neglect than wouldn't it be abuse if I used physical force to get him into his coat and then used verbal threats to get him to keep it on?

Nah- I think I will keep letting him be the judge and will continue throw an extra coat in the backpack along with other emergency supplies...


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Neglect? Really?









If that is neglect than wouldn't it be abuse if I used physical force to get him into his coat and then used verbal threats to get him to keep it on?

Nah- I think I will keep letting him be the judge and will continue throw an extra coat in the backpack along with other emergency supplies...

Actually, I tend to think the same thing. Particularly with a very small child (think under 5ish), in very cold weather (think snow on the ground). I'm in NYC, and it gets cold, and windy here, and when I see children who are no appropriately dressed for the weather, I do think of the parents as being neglectful. I might not think of it as being terribly neglectful, but shorts, t-shirt, and sandals in February in NYC would leave me with some questions.

Children being too cold is certainly no laughing matter.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

I am in Boston which is usually colder than NYC. We had a Nor'easter that dumped close to 2 feet of snow in some places. Wind howling. Brrrr freezing. My son went sledding for hours and chose to wear all the appropriate clothing except refused a hat and gloves. He said they made him too hot. So I put them in the car. After about an hour he came and put his hat on. No worries. No abuse/neglect. Could we have skipped sledding? Fought about the hat? Had a power struggle while I forced my will on him? I guess so but what would any of that proved or even accomplished? Instead we had an awesome day!









Today he went to the store with me in a short sleeve tee, unzipped hoodie, nylon athletic pants and crocs. No socks. No hat. No gloves. In the cold and snow. The horrors.

I trust verbal children to judge the temp for themselves and I encourage them plan appropriately in case they judged wrong. I guess I am just a mom who has no problem throwing a coat. etc in the car, into his back pack, etc. Nobody laughs when they get cold. They put on another layer.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
> 
> I am in Boston which is usually colder than NYC. We had a Nor'easter that dumped close to 2 feet of snow in some places. Wind howling. Brrrr freezing. My son went sledding for hours and chose to wear all the appropriate clothing except refused a hat and gloves. He said they made him too hot. So I put them in the car. After about an hour he came and put his hat on. No worries. No abuse/neglect. Could we have skipped sledding? Fought about the hat? Had a power struggle while I forced my will on him? I guess so but what would any of that proved or even accomplished? Instead we had an awesome day!
> 
> ...


Hat and gloves I don't fight over. Coats and socks I do, warm pants I do. I wouldn't think anything of a child wearing a warm coat, weather appropriate pants/shoes and no hat or gloves, but I would judge if I saw a kid with no coat, or wearing flimsy athletic pants that have no warmth whatsoever. And putting a coat in the car is a peice of cake, but carrying one along when you have limited backpack space and no car (I live in queens, with no access to a car), and a stroller with limited space, it gets harder to take something along that should be being worn.

As for laughing, you put the laughing smiley in the post I quoted earlier, which is why I mentioned it - its not funny to think that a child wearing inappropriate clothing is being neglected, its something that can start a CPS investigation if its happening regularly at school.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Neglect? Really?









If that is neglect than wouldn't it be abuse if I used physical force to get him into his coat and then used verbal threats to get him to keep it on?

Nah- I think I will keep letting him be the judge and will continue throw an extra coat in the backpack along with other emergency supplies...

Yeah I think neglect too. I don't think it is the same as saying that forcing them to wear a jacket is abuse at all. Sometimes as parents we have to force certain things with our children if it is in their best interest. sure it would be easier for me not to make my son wear a jacket if he didn't want to, but that's not really the point of being his mother. I can still give him choices, like which jacket he wants to wear but if it's cold outside then he's putting on a coat. Period.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I certainly think neglect when I see a young child out who is not adequately dressed and looks cold and miserable. Whether it is "benign" neglect in that no one was home to facilitate better choices for being outside or whether it is "real" neglect I can't say.

But my heart ached watching the small neighbor boy going to school in inappropriate clothing and playing outside with no gloves or hat-I still can see his bright red hands. Some of the neighbor kids gave him their stuff because his parents could not be bothered.

I do think there is a real difference in how I view poorly dressed young children and older kids who can clearly make plenty of their own opinions about what constitutes proper outer wear.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

You could spend all of your heart, soul and body trying to take the best care of your child. Come to the conclusion that its better to let the child make their own decisison, while keeping the appropriate clothes on hand. The minute some total stranger with nothing better to do sees your kid, you are immediately guilty of NEGLECT.

My 2yo often refuses gloves, (coat and hat) but now he has seen (especially since the blizzard) that he gets really cold, now he insists on gloves.

On the other hand, you could be that parent, who sincerely believes that the ends justifies the means, and forcefully dressing your child, whilst most likely getting frustrated and angry and possibly raising your voice, all in the name of parenting the best way you can...now you are guilty of ABUSE by that passing stranger.

This is why parenting is the hardest job in the world.

I think people passing by feeling their judgment, are probably just judgmental people in general.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Neglect is when the child doesn't own appropriate clothing and is expected to spend time out in the elements. It is not neglect if said child chooses not to wear them. YMMV

My son has plenty of cold weather clothes. They are there if he wants/needs them. Clothing is not a hill I choose to die on. I don't think it is worth the power struggle.







Same with food. I prepare healthy nutritious meals and my child can eat (or not) as he see fit. Why fight about it?? He will put on a coat if gets cold. He will eat when he is hungry.

I question parents who get so angry-red faced, voice raised as they beg, bribe, cajole, barter, negotiate with their child over a coat. I often wonder if they get so angry in public about something as small as wearing a coat what their home life must be like. But if it is a passing stranger I give them the benefit of they doubt in my mind.

I choose to talk to my child, to give them options. If we are running out to the grocery store, heck he can wear his PJ's if that what he wants. If we are going for a hike he dresses appropriately all on his own. If he opted not to wear his coat/hat/gloves I would suggest he put in his back pack. He has been on enough hikes he knows what to expect.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

When I was in second grade, I refused to wear gloves or mittens. I don't remember WHY, I just remember that I didn't like them. Probably because it made it harder to do things do the the lack of sensitivity. I still have that problem now and am quick to take my mittens off to do anything because I'm just too clumsy with fabric over my hands. That must have been my reason in second grade.

Anyway, I rode the bus and about once every couple weeks, the bus driver would give me gloves to wear. He probably thought my mom wouldn't/couldn't buy me any because I wouldn't wear them when actually I had quite a few pairs at home prior to him starting to give me some. Sometimes I actually had them in my backpack just in case. He never asked me why I didn't wear any, and he also never seemed to remember he just GAVE me some (maybe he thought I lost them? I was seven after all) and it would bother me because I DIDN'T want them but I was old enough to know that that might be rude to say but too young to know how else to handle it. Looking back, he probably thought I was being neglected. This was in Wisconsin winter after all. Many days were below freezing and some days below zero. I just couldn't stand to wear them.

My brother has refused to wear a coat for years, and even wears shorts... again, in Wisconsin winter. He has pants, he has coats, he has hats and gloves. He has no desire to wear them. Mom has always made him wear them and now at 17 he just rolls his eyes thinking she is ridiculous. Granted, he isn't a three year old, but people still comment on him not wearing anything despite the fact that he is plenty old enough to make his own decisions. He understands the risks... he just runs REALLY warm. People have probably thought he was being neglected. This is far from true.

My daughter is 21 months old. Not quite two. Sometimes she doesn't want to wear her hat and gloves. I don't care about this. She puts them on to play outside for extended periods and its usually just when we are going to be getting into a car to get into a store where she refuses. This is hardly an issue. She also takes her shoes off a lot and I have no patience to put them on 20 times a day while we are out running errands so sometimes she is in just socks. Yes, even in the winter. However, she doesn't walk on the ground yet (she doesn't like to hold my hand for more than two minutes and won't stay next to me) so again, this isn't an issue to me. Her feet are warm enough so long as they aren't on a cold floor. And the worst? I take her coat off to be in her car seat. After some tests, I've determined that it is safe for her to wear it in her seat but it is such a hassle to get it just so that I just take it off and lay it across her lap. If we are running into a store quickly, sometimes I don't put it back on. I do when it is really windy or below freezing, but if it is around 40 degrees and she'll be outside for all of 30 seconds, I just skip it. She wears long sleeve shirts and pants and socks.. and sometimes has her hat on.. that it just seems pointless to take the time to put it on just to take it off in the store where she gets too hot too easily just to put it back on for the few seconds she'll wear it before taking it off again. Its too much of a bother when I can just get inside quickly.

People probably think I'm neglectful. Never mind how much time I spent looking for a good coat for her that she would find comfortable. Never mind that I am the type to buy only certain types of shoes for her. Never mind that I bought a hat I knew she'd prefer to wear that is also 100% wool. Never mind that the only times she has been ill have been during typical shorts weather (one was a case of roseola and one was a stomach virus) and has otherwise had no experience with being sick. Never mind that she wears boots, socks, leggings, wool pants, long sleeved shirt, coat, gloves, and hat when she is actually playing outside. Never mind any of it... a random stranger can see her in 38 degree weather in just socks, jeans, and a long sleeved tshirt outside for 30 seconds and assume I'm a neglectful parent. Its a wonder my brother and I never had issues (we hardly got sick either, and there were never cases of frostbite) and my kid might not be so lucky.

Meh. Call CPS on me. They won't find anything to be concerned about.


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## dbsam (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> If it's dangerously cold, like below 0 F with a windchill far below, where I have to worry about frostbite or something, then I'll fight this battle, but otherwise I just grab the stuff and bring it with me and they can put it on when they feel cold enough.


I'm like this with my daughter; she has sensory issues - some seeking and others avoidance. Cold doesn't bother her to the point of danger. She will play bare handed in the snow and very low temps and I am afraid she will get frost-bit. (There are times she's taken off the gloves, played for a long time, then come into the house later crying about her hands hurting.) So, there are times when it is really cold that I will tell her she cannot go out to play in the snow without gloves or mittens.

Other than the above circumstance, I do not fight over what they wear. Last week, with snow on the ground, my son was wearing long sweat-type shorts, long wool socks, a hat, and a warm sweater - it was his outfit of choice. He was playing in the garage and periodically went outside to get the mail, grab a snowball, shovel, etc. My neighbor was horrified; but my son was fine and will put on additional layers if cold.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
> 
> Neglect is when the child doesn't own appropriate clothing and is expected to spend time out in the elements. It is not neglect if said child chooses not to wear them. YMMV
> 
> ...


I don't get angry, red faced, or raise my voice when forcing my child to wear his coat. It goes something like this, "DS, would you like to put on your coat now, or wait till we get to the front door?" (we live in an apartment building and are on the 7th floor - he gets hot if he wears the coat on the elevator so I don't force it then) Then when we get downstairs, "Ok DS, its time to put on your coat and hat! Look, mommy is wearing hers already, lets get you bundled up so we can go outside!" As I say this I'm putting his coat on him since he's not old enough to do it by himself, although he doesn't help.

When he fights it, I cheerfully continue talking while I wrestle him into it. Usually he cooperates.

For us, its never to go out for 30 seconds b/c we don't have a car - its always for at least 5-10minutes. Way too long to be outside in the wind and snow without proper clothing IMO.

When I say I think neglect, I'm thinking about children who are too young to make good decisions on their own. I would think that any child under 4 would have a hard time determining which clothing went best with what weather, and making that decision all on their own.

I've certainly known high school boys who've gone entire winters with no coat or long pants, and when I see kids that age without proper clothing I'm more likely to roll my eyes than anything else.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Actually, I tend to think the same thing. Particularly with a very small child (think under 5ish), in very cold weather (think snow on the ground). I'm in NYC, and it gets cold, and windy here, and when I see children who are no appropriately dressed for the weather, I do think of the parents as being neglectful. I might not think of it as being terribly neglectful, but shorts, t-shirt, and sandals in February in NYC would leave me with some questions.
> 
> Children being too cold is certainly no laughing matter.


"Very cold" is pretty subjective, though. What exactly do you think is going to happen to, say, a four year old in a t-shirt in 30 weather on a short walk from a car to a building, or one building to another? Medically?

We've got two feet of the snow on the ground here, and I went out to the wood pile this morning in pajama pants and a tank top. I didn't suffer any ill effects.

For us- the kids usually don't wear coats when we're going out in public in the winter because a) they can't have them on in their car seat, and b) it will be too hot to wear them indoors. And it's ridiculous to put it on them for the 45 second walk from the car to wherever we're going. We do bring them with us in case the car ever breaks down. Yes, if it was a 10 minute walk then the standards would be different, but you can't glance at a parent-child pair and know how long they've been outside. Or what type of climate they're used to. (when my New England raised children visit their grandparents in Texas over the winter holidays, I'm sure people are horrified by what they wear. But 40 degrees is just not hat-glove-scarf-winter-coat weather to us, no matter how "bitterly cold" the locals think its







)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


This is another key to the whole "neglect" thing. How long are the kids actually outside? When I consider how long it takes to get young kids in an out of jackets and carseats, I coudl easily see myself not putting the jacket back on if we were just popping across a sidewalk or small parking lot. The random stranger seeing us has no idea why my child isn't in a coat, or how long they've been outside without a coat. If the child doesn't seem unhappy, lost or generally uncared for, then why jump to negative conclusions, yk?

I did once take ds1 out without a jacket, when I really shouldn't have. DH, ds1 and I were eating dinner in a restaurant. The weather truned really, really nasty while we were inside - it had been quite cold, but otherwise not terrible when we went in. We went to catch our bus, and it was really, really windy, and pouring heavy, cold rain. Even inside the bus "shelter", ds1 was getting cold and wet...he only had on a shirt, no jacket, and was a skinny 8 or 9 year old. That was 9-10 years ago, and I've never forgotten the lovely older woman, who saw me trying to wrap him up inside my jacket to the best of my ability and gave him a sweater to put on...and then told him to keep it when our bus got there. I wish I knew her name, so that I could thank her properly. I honestly don't know if she thought we were neglectful, or if she realized we just made an error of judgment about the weather...but I really appreciate that she helped us out, instead of jumping down my throat (I felt bad enough already).


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Maybe my thinking is clouded by living in NYC then, where the VAST majority of people are not doing 45second dashes from building to car, car to store, car to building outside in the cold. Most people take the subway, or have to walk several blocks to their cars (unless they pay for garage parking, which isn't always nearby and is very expensive), or are taking the bus or walking where they are going. So yes, when I see small children in the winter time without a coat (like i said before, hats and gloves are different, my son sometimes refuses those as well, I'm talking winter coats and warm pants, and shoes) I think neglect and poor parenting.

And unless people are coming from the artic circle, or some very very cold parts of Alaska or Maine, the windy winters of NYC are COLD. When it isn't windy, its not too bad, but when its windy its TERRIBLE, and I've already felt many times like my face was going to fall off walking to and from school this winter. I can't imagine thinking that just b/c my ds doesn't want to wear a coat that its ok for him to be freezing cold while we walk to school - and he would be, b/c everyone is cold! I even have a bundle me bag for his stroller b/c I don't want him to get too cold - he certainly would without it. (the medical diagnosis would most certainly be "Child is cold" but that doesn't seem to be a good reason to just let him be cold yk?)


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> I can't imagine thinking that just b/c my ds doesn't want to wear a coat that its ok for him to be freezing cold while we walk to school - and he would be, b/c everyone is cold! I even have a bundle me bag for his stroller b/c I don't want him to get too cold - he certainly would without it. (the medical diagnosis would most certainly be "Child is cold" but that doesn't seem to be a good reason to just let him be cold yk?)


I don't think there's anything wrong with bundling a kid up so they're nice and warm, but there's a world of difference between a child that you think may be uncomfortable and a child that is being neglected. If they're not taking any actual harm from what's happening- and "being cold" is not truly harmful- then I think it's over reacting to consider it neglect. If frostbite or hypothermia is a concern (and yes, age plays into that), then we have something. Otherwise, it's a myob situation.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Otherwise, it's a myob situation.


Mmm, so much for the village, hmm? If I see the same kids drug out blue and shivering by a mom who is warmly dressed herself, what am I to think then? That she wants the child to dress himself or herself and that's more important than them now shivering and blue at the bus stop? Should I assume the mother is high or drunk and incapable of dressing her kids for the cold? Or should I think the kids are intolerably bad types who won't listen to a caring mom?


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Not everyone subscribes to the "It takes a village to raise a child" view. I sure don't.









I haven't seen anyone argue that it's okay to force a child to be out in the cold, blue and shivering. Just that some kids run hot and really truly aren't cold, some people are only outside for a few minutes at a time (which a stranger can't possibly know just from passing them on the street), and some parents are carrying warmer clothes on them to provide for their stubborn DC who refused to dress properly that morning (which again, a stranger can't know).

It's amazing how quick people are to pass judgment on others' parenting when they can't possibly have all the details. No one here is arguing that it's okay to neglect a child...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


If a child is blue and shivering, they've reached the point where harm is being done, imo.

And, I'm not a big fan of the "village" in the way that many people mean it, so the "so much for the village" sentiment is fairly meaningless to me.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Off topic...



> And, I'm not a big fan of the "village" in the way that many people mean it, so the "so much for the village" sentiment is fairly meaningless to me.


Sorry you feel that way. My village has been a huge source of support and love for me. I was pretty ill after my second child was born, I had friends who would bring me meals or in one case, actually stopped by because I didn't answer the phone. They were worried that I'd fainted again leaving the babies unsupervised. My life and my children's lives would be a barren wasteland without good friends.

I'm the kind of person that passes out umbrellas to strangers in my rainy city. I worry about folks and I certainly worry about under-clothed children.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm all about having a village (I sure wish I had one) but random strangers passing judgment on one tiny bit of another stranger's life is NOT being part of the village. Friends and family who have details of your life are a village and important... strangers assuming I'm neglecting my child because I don't do x, y, or z are not part of my village and don't get an opinion unless I'm forcing my child to stand in snow barefoot or something equally as ridiculous.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good friends are wonderful, but I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the village as you referred to it in your previous post. Random strangers making up their minds that someone is neglecting their child, based on a kid not being dressed "appropriately" - as defined by someone else - have nothing to do with good friends looking out for someone.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Originally Posted by *prothyraia* "Otherwise, it's a myob situation."


> Originally Posted by *philomom*: If I see the same kids drug out blue and shivering by a mom who is warmly dressed herself, what am I to think then? That she wants the child to dress himself or herself and that's more important than them now shivering and blue at the bus stop? Should I assume the mother is high or drunk and incapable of dressing her kids for the cold? Or should I think the kids are intolerable brats who won't listen to a caring mom?


Did you actually read what I wrote? Because what I said was:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> If frostbite or hypothermia is a concern (and yes, age plays into that), then we have something. Otherwise, it's a myob situation.


Blue and shivering? Yes, I'd be concerned too (even if they did have a hat and scarf!







)

Coatless but seemingly unaffected, in temperatures/wind conditions not likely to cause immediate damage? I'd butt out.







Maybe it does take a village, but it doesn't take a village of busybodies.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Good friends are wonderful, but I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the village as you referred to it in your previous post. Random strangers making up their minds that someone is neglecting their child, based on a kid not being dressed "appropriately" - as defined by someone else - have nothing to do with good friends looking out for someone.


My thoughts exactly


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?


It's not less valid, but it does mean that I can't trust them to judge appropriately. I have to keep a closer eye on things and maybe insist on clothing that is weather appropriate because my child cannot regulate himself as well. Dh and ds do not feel minor pain very easily. They both miss the early warning signs. Ds had strep throat with very swollen tonsils and only said in passing that his throat "kind of hurt". We only took him to the doctor because he'd had a fever for 5+ days and wasn't getting better. The same with heat/cold. When ds was 4, his sensory issues were such that he didn't want to change from long pants and flannel shirts. He was running around in 95 degree weather and getting overheated. It was becoming a safety issue. I didn't want my child to collapse with heat stroke.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Mmm, so much for the village, hmm? If I see the same kids drug out blue and shivering by a mom who is warmly dressed herself, what am I to think then? That she wants the child to dress himself or herself and that's more important than them now shivering and blue at the bus stop? Should I assume the mother is high or drunk and incapable of dressing her kids for the cold? Or should I think the kids are intolerable brats who won't listen to a caring mom?


Or that maybe the kids made a really bad decision that they're regretting? My kids rarely dress 'appropriately' for the school bus. They wear hoodies in pretty much all kinds of weather unless it's a torrential downpour. I suggest a raincoat or winter every single day and they reject me 9 times out of 10. Does that make them intolerable brats? Call my state of mind into question? Admittedly, we're in the pacific NW, it's not dangerously cold here.

I might smile at the mom if I'm there with her and say "they don't like to wear their winter coats, huh?"

It could also be that the kids have lost/outgrown their coats and mom doesn't have the money to replace them. My winter coat is 10 years old and is fine. I guess I wouldn't judge unless I knew the story. I've been in too many situations where my kids are the 'weird' ones.


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## dbsam (Mar 3, 2007)

My daughter has sensory issues and I do not care about 99.9% of her apparel choices. e.g. Today she wore her clothing over her pj's, in the summer she might choose wool socks and a sweater, my children run into stores without coats with 18 degree temps because they are going from a warm car to a close warm store and I am fine with it. However, when it comes to her hands and snow, ice and single digit or sub zero temps for an extended period outside I will enforce the glove/mitten rule. She does not notice the pain until very late and I am concerned - it is not a case of my disregarding her feelings. In the story you provided about your son I w/h done the same thing as you did. 30 degree weather is not excessively cold to us. Also, in my daughter's case, I often need to re-purchase clothing. e.g. She wants to wear a coat but now the sounds made by typical nylon winter coats drives her crazy so she wants to wear only wool coats. If I couldn't afford to buy and re-buy for her, I could see being a parent who would 'make' the child wear the coat they have. I accommodate her because it causes her so much distress and I can afford it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> To those with kids with sensory issues, I'm curious as to why you think that makes how they feel less valid. Please, don't take that as a judgment. That's probably not the best way to word that but I can't think of another way. I'm truly wondering what your thinking on how they feel is. Just because someone feels something differently doesn't mean they don't feel it correctly. KWIM?
> 
> My middle ds was diagnosed with SPD. He's the one who went to the grocery store in the middle of the winter in shorts, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He is figuring out what is comfortable for him and what isn't without me forcing him to do what I think is best for him. It took him freezing his feet while he was outside playing one day to decide that maybe socks and warm shoes are a good idea when the temperature is in the 30s F. Nothing horrible happened, though. His feet hurt from the cold and he cried a little about it but he didn't get gangrene and lose toes or anything like that. Do I wish he hadn't felt that pain? Of course. As a mother I don't ever want my children to feel pain. It's impossible to make that happen, though, and most times people need to experience things for themselves. As for coats, he will wear his thin, fleece jacket but cannot stand to wear either of his thicker winter coats. He says they feel bumpy and he doesn't like it. I even bought him one that's not puffy but still has some quilting that he picked out. It's the kind that has the fleece inner that can be taken out so both pieces can be worn separately. The coat part is more of what I would call a shell. It's not really thick or puffy at all. He still doesn't like the way that feels.


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