# Would you let a 13yo boy babysit?



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I was asking around our hs group for recommendations for older teenagers who may be interested in babysitting. I heard back from a mom who used to hs her son, but he is in school now. He is 13, and has expressed an interest in babysitting. And, they live only a few blocks away. I have never met them though.

Having two sons I feel bad about this, but I am hesitant about the idea of leaving them with a male babysitter. Plus, I'm not sure if 13 is old enough to be watching a 5yo and a 2.5yo.

I don't think I'm going to do it, but I thought I would ask here to see what your thoughts were on it.


----------



## Erin M (Nov 6, 2006)

I started babysitting when I was 12 1/2. My first job was for 3 girls, the youngest was maybe 9 months. The mom had me read a book about babysitting (basic baby CPR & first aid) and spend a few hours with the kids while she was home before they left me alone with them. I watched those girls until I was 17 and found a "real" job. In my own experience I was a better sitter at 13 than at 16, when I was younger I wanted to play with the kids, when I got older I had different priorities (boys, homework).

I understand your reservations about a male babysitter, I was babysat by a not so great boy a few times, he was the back-up sitter for his (male) friend who was great. My brother loved our male sitters much more than our female sitters, when else does a 5 year old get to hang out with a cool older kid?

I suggest you give this kid a supervised trial run before you write him off, it might be a good thing for your kids.


----------



## MsElle07 (Jul 14, 2006)

Nope. Absolutely not.

You should read the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker... in it, he talks about one of the best ways you can avoid having your children become the victim of sexual abuse (which, unfortunately, something like 1 in 3 girls are) is to not allow them to have male caregivers. Most people are abused by someone their mother trusts.









Not to cast aspersions on this boy -- he is probably a lovely young man. I just think it's a wise policy to have.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I'd be ok with the male part, but not ok with the 13 part. I babysat at 12, but looking back, that was not such a good idea. I'm afraid that a young child (12) wouldn't react properly to an emergency situation. I'm freaked about ds choking. Plus, what would a 12 yo do if ds decided to flip out (as, occasionally happens around here. . . )?


----------



## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

I did/do use a 13 year old neighbor (and his 15 year old sister) and my son LOVES it. HE plays soccer and baseball and basketball with them, where his sister usually plays more with our daughters. At 13, he's more of "mothers helper" in that I don't leave them for long periods of time, and our kids are VERY verbal about who they like/don't like in sitters.

I did read Gavin de Becker, and honestly, in my gut, I trust this family. I do have a son, and don't want him to feel like ALL men are abusers. A good friend of mine was abused by a female sitter, so I tend to go more on my gut rather than on the sex of the sitter.


----------



## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

*No, but then i wouldn't let any 13 yr old babysit my lo's male or female 13 is too young imo*


----------



## snuggly mama (Mar 29, 2004)

Yes, if I knew he was a good, responsible kid I would be ok with it.

One of our friends' sons babysits and is very good at it. He's very responsible, and he enjoys spending time with the kids. I guess I'm somewhat surprised that the gut reaction is always "no" in this case. Don't we want to raise our boys to be nurterers? Don't we want them to have concrete experiences in caring for young children? But if we tell them, subtly or explicitly, that we don't trust them to be alone with young kids, or we don't trust their abilities (but would trust a girl in the exact same circumstances), then how can we realistically expect them to assume involved fathering roles later in life? Obviously, I would take the same precautions I would take with ANY babysitter -- making sure they are responsible, knowledgeable about children and safety issues, etc. And with any sitter, I would have them over for a few times while I was still home to see how they interacted with my children.


----------



## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

It would depend on the kid. I had a friends ds, who was 11 or 12 at the time babysit my 3 kids for me, but it was when I was in the other room doing homework. I still paid him, but was available if something happened or if ds2 needed to nurse.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsElle07* 
Nope. Absolutely not.

You should read the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker... in it, he talks about one of the best ways you can avoid having your children become the victim of sexual abuse (which, unfortunately, something like 1 in 3 girls are) is to not allow them to have male caregivers. Most people are abused by someone their mother trusts.









Not to cast aspersions on this boy -- he is probably a lovely young man. I just think it's a wise policy to have.

Not every male is a predator and teenage boys are not predators-in-training. I do not think that is a fair assessment, and females are also likely to abuse.

My brother is 14 and has been babysitting for the past year and a bit. He took training to do so, we have a Babysitters course offered by St John's Ambulance which covers things like basic care, activities to do and First Aid training. And he would be very very hurt if he found out that someone was reluctant to use him as a sitter because of a gender bias. How upset would you be as a parent if someone dismiss your children because they were boys?

Sorry if I sound preachy about this, but I do not think it is fair to assume because a male choses to engage in a caring job then they must be a molester. I am an ECE and I worked with several men who were fantastic as early educators, and I was shocked and disgusted by some people's attitudes towards them. They assumed that they must be in the field so they can have access to little girls or they were gay and preying on little boys. It's that attitude which deters men from entering caring fields.

Before you dismiss him I would meet with him, find out if he has any training, and what he can offer you and your family as a babysitter. Get references from a few parents he has worked with. My concern would be more due to his age, not all 13 year olds are mature enough to handle very young children while others, like my brother, have a gift with little ones (very young children adore Evan, my daughter included, and he is fantastic with babies).


----------



## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I would be okay with a boy babysitter, but not with a 13 year old to BABYSIT. I have used a 13 year old boy as a mother's helper - when my second son was born I paid the boy next door to comeover and play with my older son a few times - it was a wonderful fit and being a little boy my son enjoyed the activities that the boy came up with much more than the girl I have used a couple of times.

As the wife of guy who is great with kids who has a brother who is a middle school teacher & coach (and great uncle) and the mother of two sons I sort of bristle at the suggestion that boys are not to be trusted. I have heard it from several neighbors with girls and it always makes me bristle, but if you don't trust boys you shouldn't have one of them babysit. To me, it seems as if the boy who is babysitting is at risk if you view them as a potential predator. It actually makes me wonder if my boys will be safe babysitting someday, ykwim?
BJ
Barney, Ben & soon to be #3!!!


----------



## MsElle07 (Jul 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lesley&grace* 
Not every male is a predator and teenage boys are not predators-in-training. I do not think that is a fair assessment, and females are also likely to abuse.


Females are actually statistically far less likely to abuse. Operating under your assumption, if both boys and girls are likely to abuse, then we shouldn't be leaving our children with anyone.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Sure. I'd want to have the boy come over and interact with my kids in my presence first. But, if I felt he was responsible and mature enough, and I didn't get any bad gut feelings about him, no problem. My sister has a 16-year-old male babysitter, and I don't like him at all...I don't think he's a predator, but I also don't think he takes the job seriously enough.

DS1 is almost 14. He'd like to babysit, but we don't really know how where/how to find kids for him to babysit. He's done a bit of it with his younger siblings (3.5, and 1.5) and has gone through the Red Cross babysitting course with flying colours.

As far as protecting my kids from sexual predators is concerned, I'm far more interested in paying attention to my gut reaction to people and teaching my kids to do the same than I am in trying to keep them away from 50% of the population, based on gender.

Yes - women are less likely to sexually abuse, or even physically abuse. I do not believe that women are less likely to emotionally abuse - and my ex-husband lost his virginity at age 11....to his 17-year-old babysitter. I know there are people who wouldn't call that abuse, and I don't think my ex did...but I do. I don't decide who to leave my kids with based on gender.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I definitely would not. Statistics serve a great purpose: helping us make decisions when we have little else to go on. This is a great situation for the use of statistics.

I also wouldn't leave a 13 year old with more than one child for any length of time. Sure, I babysat 3 kids at a time at that age. And I did a good job of it. Does that mean it was a good idea? Absolutely not.


----------



## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I thought (but don't know for sure) that women are statistically more likely to physically abuse children than men? I know that more sexual abusers are male than female, but I thought physical abuse stats were flipped?

Either way, more men/boys (and girl/women) are not abusers than are abusers.

BJ
Barney, Ben & soon to be #3!!!


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsElle07* 
Nope. Absolutely not.

You should read the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker... in it, he talks about one of the best ways you can avoid having your children become the victim of sexual abuse (which, unfortunately, something like 1 in 3 girls are) is to not allow them to have male caregivers. Most people are abused by someone their mother trusts.









Not to cast aspersions on this boy -- he is probably a lovely young man. I just think it's a wise policy to have.


What minute percentage of males are child abusers? And yet you paint _all_ men with the same brush? Fully half of the earth's population? I find this attitude troubling.

I also am curious about your statistic of 1 in 3 girls being victims of sexual abuse. Can you provide a link? I know several women who were unfortunate victims of sexual abuse as children, but I find it difficult to believe that 1 in 3 girls are. That would mean an astonishing number of child abusers out there. I just don't believe that is accurate.

Yes, it is horrible that people prey on children sexually. Yes, we need to do what we can to protect our children. I don't wear blinders regarding the dangers out there. But starting out assuming that _everybody_ is a sexual predator is just perpetrating a culture of fear, IMO.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys* 
I thought (but don't know for sure) that women are statistically more likely to physically abuse children than men? I know that more sexual abusers are male than female, but I thought physical abuse stats were flipped?

Either way, more men/boys (and girl/women) are not abusers than are abusers.

You might be right about the physical abuse - I don't really know. (I also suspect that the fact that more women are full-time caregivers to their children, and thus more likely to "snap" could come into play there.)

I totally agree with your second point. We, as a society, get so caught up in "more boys than girls do X, Y or Z", that we often overlook that "more boys _don't_ do X, Y, or Z" than do.


----------



## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I would have to meet the kid before deciding. I started babysitting when I was 11, but the world was a much different place then. I can't imagine an 11 yr old being mature enough these days to babysit.

You could schedule a few mother's helper days when he is over interacting w/ the kids while you are home to supervise. That way you can get a better impression of him.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I also am curious about your statistic of 1 in 3 girls being victims of sexual abuse. Can you provide a link? I know several women who were unfortunate victims of sexual abuse as children, but I find it difficult to believe that 1 in 3 girls are. That would mean an astonishing number of child abusers out there.

Not as many as you might think. The number of children that one predator can molest in a lifetime can be astonishingly high.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I definitely would not. Statistics serve a great purpose: helping us make decisions when we have little else to go on. This is a great situation for the use of statistics.

I agree about the purpose of statistics. I disagree that this is a situation where the mom has little else to go on. She can meet the boy, watch him interact with her kids, etc.

I believe a large number of people have felt uneasiness around people who ended up molesting their children...and denied to themselves that they felt that way, because it wasn't "nice". If I get even a hint of a feeling that I don't want a particular person around my kids, I'm going with it. I don't care if it's unfounded...but it won't have anything to do with the person's gender.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, you have all summed up perfectly the debate in my head!









I have read Protecting the Gift, which is probably why I had an initial bad reaction to the idea of a male sitter. But I think the idea of him coming over as a mother's helper for awhile might be a good one - my older son would probably really enjoy hanging out with a boy that age. Plus, his mom offered to come with him the first time he babysat alone to supervise, if it made me feel more comfortable.

I also had a reaction to it because when I was 12, I was hired to be a fulltime babysitter for an 8 month old baby. I was completely overwhelmed and stressed out by it, and quit after two days.

Of course, the reason I was asking among our hs group is that I was hoping to find someone who was available during the day.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsElle07* 
Females are actually statistically far less likely to abuse. Operating under your assumption, if both boys and girls are likely to abuse, then we shouldn't be leaving our children with anyone.

I'm curious...what assumption am I making here exactly? I believe my post cautioned against the use of assuming that all males are predators, and that you should get to know, get references, and see for yourself before deciding if this boy will be able to provide babysitting service. I give out advice all the time regarding childcare, to parents who ask me since they know I spent many years in early childhood centres before having my daughter and have always told them to research and go by gut feelings. At no point in my post did I say that you should assume that everyone else is a predator and that you should not leave your child with anyone.


----------



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I've used 13 year olds as babysitters, but they have been all girls. I think that at that age, girls are more mature than boys are. I have used older boy sitters, they were about 16/17 years old. I was completely comfortable with it and they did a great job.


----------



## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I think it depends on the babysitter and the age of the one being babysat. Dh's has a friend who offered to have their 13 year old son babysit DD when she was about 9 months old (I can't remember for sure). Anyhow, I said absolutely not. He knew NOTHING about infant care. He expressed an interest in babysitting, he had apparently watched older kids before, and he got along well with DD. It didn't feel right and I said no. I felt bad for a bit but what it came down to was feeling secure with who was watching DD...regardless of gender. It didn't feel right and I didn't feel secure with it.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I was asking around our hs group for recommendations for older teenagers who may be interested in babysitting. I heard back from a mom who used to hs her son, but he is in school now. He is 13, and has expressed an interest in babysitting. And, they live only a few blocks away. I have never met them though.

I'd only hesitate on not know him. Maybe have him over a few times, while you're home, even for a half hour to an hour. Say just so he can get to know the kids.







But really just get to know him. Then go with your gut and mama-intuition.

My brother and sister and I used to have a male babysitter. He was about 13 or 14. He was fantastic. We preferred him to all the girl babysitters anytime. He actually played with us instead of watching TV the whole time. When our pet cat died, he came over and did a funeral for us. Just a neat kid. I never felt he was immature or inappropriate, in fact it was nice to see a male positive role model at a teens age.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lesley&grace* 
Not every male is a predator and teenage boys are not predators-in-training. I do not think that is a fair assessment, and females are also likely to abuse.

Statistically males are *much* more likely to sexually abuse. No, I would not leave my child with a male babysitter, with the exception of one or two men I trust. But generally, no. I'm sorry to say it, but it's the sad reality.

When men stop raping women and children, I will reconsider my position.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

While staying at friend's houses growing up, I saw some really mean and nasty female babysitters. There are some messed up women out there, too.

I think, IMO, we have to go off of getting to know an individual, not pre-judging gender. We don't not marry men just because they are more likely to have an affair. (ok, well some don't







) We get to know the individual. I'd hate to be judged by only my gender, with nothing of getting to know ME as a person, who I am, what I'm about, what I believe and stand for, my interests, strengths, weaknesses...

I'd never leave my kids with anyone I didn't know these things about male or female.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA about getting to know the individual. There are very few people in this world who I would trust my child with. There is one grown man I leave her with apart from her father, and maybe four women. I'm pretty damn picky.

But certainly with men and boys, sexual abuse is a very real concern I have when considering a potential caregiver. I always think, "Would this person sexually abuse my daughter?" Which is a sad thing to have to consider.


----------



## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

For the record, my ex was sexually abused by his female babysitter. It does happen.

My real contribution to this conversation is that I would feel a lot better if the babysitter's mom was home and open to her son calling her if something should come up. And the mother's helper thing. I would trust your instincts about the boy, but what do I know, I don't let anyone babysit DD.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Look, I totally understand the instinct to say "no" to a male caregiver. I do understand the statistics, and having been touched inappropriately by the husband of my caregiver as a child I do understand the urge to say "I will protect my children by only choosing female caregivers." But as a mother to a son, a sister to two wonderful teenaged boys, as a co-worker who saw a fantastic male counterpart eventually give up his dream to work with young children because of attitudes just like that, it is heartbreaking. Being male should never exclude you from being a caregiver, anymore than being female should exclude you from construction work.

I hope dearly that none of your sons have to suffer from opinons like these.


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'm not surprised at the way men (and young boys) are assumed to be predators here, but I am always saddened when I see it here.

Quote:

Don't we want to raise our boys to be nurterers? Don't we want them to have concrete experiences in caring for young children? *But if we tell them, subtly or explicitly, that we don't trust them to be alone with young kids, or we don't trust their abilities* (but would trust a girl in the exact same circumstances), then how can we realistically expect them to assume involved fathering roles later in life?
Yes, is this really the message we want to send to our boys? I don't have a son, but the amount of predjudice I see towards men and boys in general is really really sad.

I had a male babysitter sometimes when I was growing up and he was great. Very different than my female sitters. I would defineately want to know someone that was watching my child, regardless of gender.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I'm not surprised at the way men (and young boys) are assumed to be predators here, but I am always saddened when I see it here.

Yes, is this really the message we want to send to our boys? I don't have a son, but the amount of predjudice I see towards men and boys in general is really really sad.

I know. Being judged by gender alone, sight unseen, personality unknown. Or assuming that women are better, superior, or of more value in a section of society. Sexism.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

There are opinions and assumptions, and then there are statistical realities.







Yes, it's sad, but I'm not going to risk my daughter because I wish it weren't so or I want to make things nice for boys.

Most of my lovers and most of my women friends have been sexually abused. Many are damaged sexually by it for life. I do not want that for my child and I will be god d*mned if I'm not going to do everything I can to protect my daughter from it.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
There are opinions and assumptions, and then there are statistical realities.







Yes, it's sad, but I'm not going to risk my daughter because I wish it weren't so or I want to make things nice for boys.

Most of my lovers and most of my women friends have been sexually abused. Many are damaged sexually by it for life. I do not want that for my child and I will be god d*mned if I'm not going to do everything I can to protect my daughter from it.

The thing is that my husband was a boy abused by a woman. There are tons that he has met in the bit has spoke up, but they don't speak up. If they did, the statistics would be vary revealing. But abused males do not speak up, near as much, and that is also a statistic. And yup, it damages for life. I know. And I'll be "god d*mned" if people assume my boys are predators, just because they were born a boy.







:

This all just breaks my heart. Why can't we judge people by who they are, just by getting to know them? Instead of just never giving them a chance because we looked at some stats? I never suggested anyone risk their child male or female, with a male or female. I just advocate getting to know someone first before judging them by their gender.

I married to a man that was a boy abused by women, and I saw plenty of mean and wicked girl babysitters growing up. I don't need the stats, I lived it.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yes, I know women abuse men, and I know silence is a factor. But even so I don't believe it is to nearly the same degree, nowhere near. That is my belief, in my gut, and I go with my gut a lot in parenting.

I don't blindly trust women with my child just because they are women. And I don't 'assume' anything about your boy because he is a boy. However, I am aware of the statistical reality in our society and I make decisions that incorporate this knowledge.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I understand that mamas of boys feel protective. It's interesting though that so many here are taking the position that it is as or more important that their boys not be assumed about based on their gender, than it is that my child not be sexually assaulted.

That to me is the mark of a misogynist culture.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

thismama...just a note to you, I wasn't replying to you directly. I just noticed it looked that way.

We all just want what is best for our children. The world is scary and we love our precious children. Too many are getting hurt in ways they should never know and we feel frightened and worried. We love our kids and want to protect them. I think we can all agree on that. And although I disagree with not getting to know someone just because he's a boy, I would never want another mama to do something that went against her mama-intuition. We gotta feel safe with our choices.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Live4Today* 
thismama...just a note to you, I wasn't replying to you directly. I just noticed it looked that way.

We all just want what is best for our children. The world is scary and we love our precious children. Too many are getting hurt in ways they should never know and we feel frightened and worried. We love our kids and want to protect them. I think we can all agree on that. And although I disagree with not getting to know someone just because he's a boy, I would never want another mama to do something that went against her mama-intuition. We gotta feel safe with our choices.

Yes, ITA. And I'm not saying I wouldn't get to know someone just because he is a boy. I do leave my daughter with one adult male caregiver, apart from her father.

It's just sadly something I do think about when I consider potential male (and to a much lesser degree, female) caregivers for my child. With the man who does care for her occasionally, I first had to sit down and ask myself whether in my gut I feel he would ever abuse her.

Sad reality, really heartbreaking.


----------



## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

So is it a matter of picking one abuse over the other? Cause as another poster pointed out females are more likely to physically abuse children in their care while men sexually abuse. And because more owmen care for children physical abuse is more prevalent. I know far more people who were abused by their female caregiver (babysitter, mother, grandmother etc) than I know were sexually abused and I spent 10 years working as a rape crisis counsellor. Is it OK to only choose female caregivers knowing this? We had a bunch of sitters growing up and two (both female, late teens) were very physically abusive. None of the males sitters were physically or sexually abusive.

I go on the sitter and my gut.

DS has a male sitter and a female sitter, both started at 13. We've had both now for 4 years. DS loves different things about them. He loves that with the male sitter he has someone who appreciates his energy. And I love that my son is learning first hand that women aren't the only care givers in the world.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Not as many as you might think. The number of children that one predator can molest in a lifetime can be astonishingly high.

Good point.









However, I still don't buy the statistic that _one in three girls_ were molested as children.


----------



## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

I think this thread is andronistic, pathetic and sad









I do not believe we should be PREJUDGING ANYONE based on GENDER. It is WRONG.

And yes, I have read Protecting the Gift, as well as The Gift of Fear.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

At *least* one in three of my female lovers and friends were molested as children... all by men who were heterosexually identified in their adult sexual relations.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
more important that their boys not be assumed about based on their gender, than it is that my child not be sexually assaulted..

I just read that. Ouch. I don't want to get too personal, but I've been there it happened. if you want to talk about assuming I don't want to protect your daughter, ouch.

I never said that, I don't think any moms did. Where?

I think any of us that suggested a boy babysitter might be ok, were just saying to get to know him well. That's all, then consider from there.

I've taught self-defense to literally thousands of children and stranger danger to parents and children for over 10 years time. It's my job and I've heard all the stories. And I do it because I was that little girl. What you said hurt, that I take assumptions over my boys gender, as a protective mom of boys, in exchange for your daughter being sexually assaulted. Whoever suggested that?? All I did was share my own experiences, I never said what someone else *should* do. We all love and care for our children and just want what is best, I said we have to trust our instincts and I'd never want someone to go against that. That is key #1 in child protection to me.

Unsubbing, this thread makes me crabby now. lol


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

Luv ya, thismama, didn't mean for it to get heated like that. I'm sorry for anyone who has suffered this. We can point all day. It's out there. And we just need to protect our little ones in the ways we feel secure in.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm not assuming anything at all about your sexual abuse history, Live4Today. I do think that statements made here about not pre-judging based on gender, and people's poor sons, do suggest a valuing of boys in this more than girls (or boys, who we seem to have forgotten about) who may be molested.

x-post - ITA with you, Live4Today. I wish this was not a reality mamas need to figure out how to respond to.


----------



## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Live4Today* 
I

I think any of us that suggested a boy babysitter might be ok, were just saying to get to know him well. That's all, then consider from there.

This exactly. Nothing is absolute. My 14 yo ds has babysat and my 11 ds does a mother's helper job on a regular basis. Both moms approached me and my sons about babysitting, specifically wanting them. They know me and my kids well. I did not realize (and perhaps these moms did not either) that there is such prejudice against caring young men being left in charge of younger children.


----------



## Salihah (Dec 14, 2003)

I know I unsubbed, but I had to share...

incase anyone was following thismama and my soap opera...we're friends again, I got over my crabbies.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Live4Today* 
I know I unsubbed, but I had to share...

incase anyone was following thismama and my soap opera...we're friends again, I got over my crabbies.
























As did I. It's hard, it's a crappy issue however you see it, and I think we both are interested in protecting our kiddos.

I'm also not as extreme as I'm probably coming across.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
At *least* one in three of my female lovers and friends were molested as children... all by men who were heterosexually identified in their adult sexual relations.

I'm so sorry to hear that.









I did some googling... it seems that there really isn't any reliable data available regarding the numbers of children molested. According to wikipedia, studies state that _"the absolute number of children being sexually abused each year has been almost impossible to ascertain" and that "there does not seem to be agreement on the rate of children being sexually abused."_ The listed rates for girls in ONE STUDY range from 8 to 71 percent, which seems like such a disparity that the data is practically useless. I would guess our personal experiences probably reflect the disparity in the study.

Anyway... I didn't mean to derail this thread. I do realize that child abuse is out there and it happens, and I'm so sorry that even one person has ever had to experience it.









That said, I still think it's unfair to blame and fear an entire gender because of some horribly sick individuals.


----------



## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I probably would not use a 13 yr old as a babysitter, but I would use one as a mother's helper. If you're home, you can supervise, but the young teen can amuse them while you cook or do other chores. I might even take the teen with me while I ran errands.

A mother's helper can play outside in the sandbox or on the swingset, play playdough, read, take a little one for a walk around the block in the stroller while you work with the the older child etc.

Creating a community of helpers is a wonderful thing. And the fact that he's hs'd is a huge plus. It means he can socialize with kids who aren't just his own age.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It's interesting though that so many here are taking the position that it is as or more important that their boys not be assumed about based on their gender, than it is that my child not be sexually assaulted.

That to me is the mark of a misogynist culture.

Yes. And it makes me absolutely livid.


----------



## Leta (Dec 6, 2006)

I haven't read this whole thread, but my very favorite babysitter when I was little was male. My brother and I both adored Jay. Once, his younger brother watched us, and _he_ was awful! Almost as bad as Rhonda.







She was so bad she only watched us once. As it turns out, Jay is gay, though he wasn't out when we were kids. I suppose this lives into some sort of stereotype, though it's a good one, because Jay was very nurturing, and of course never harmed us in any way.

A close friend, who is not gay, worked as a "manny" for several years in his late teens and early 20's. Now, he's a stay at home dad. He's a gearhead, did heating and cooling as a trade, and worked construction. He just likes kids, too.

FWIW, I know several people who were victims of sexual abuse as children, and three were molested by men, and two were molested by women. None were abused by sitters. Take from that what you will.


----------



## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

I would not leave him alone to babysit. I would consider using him as a mommys helper when I'm home, or take him with me on trips to the grocery store, etc., to help out with the kids (if I could afford that kind of thing). I would never leave a 13yo male with my child and there are very few 13yo females I would leave with mine, also.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Haven't read other replies, so sorry if repeating.

I personally would not hire a young teenager to be alone with young kids. I would not trust most younger teens to handle a real emergency (choking, fire, etc.) or frustrating situations (kids acting obnoxiously or whinily) with the same skills, clearheadedness, and patience as an older sitter. While I'm certain SOME could handle it, it's clear that you don't know this potential sitter well enough to know that he could.

Gender would not enter into my decision. IMO, the risks of a sitter molesting my children are statistically low enough, regardless of their gender, that it's not an issue. I also feel that it's just as wrong to discriminate based on gender as it is to discriminate based on race.


----------



## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Yes. If I knew him well, just as if I knew a 13-year-old girl well, and my instincts said he would be a good sitter, I absolutely would. (Not at this point, obviously, because my kiddos are too young to need sitting, but when they're older.)

My husband was one of those kids, and he was AWESOME with the littles. Still is. He had a hard time finding sitting jobs though, and that always wounded him even though he understood the caution. Friends of ours have a 12-year-old son who helps out at our homeschool co-op. You stick that boy in a yard alone with 11 screaming toddlers and he handles them wonderfully. They all adore him and respond very well to him; he has infinite patience, common sense, and imagination (even when he doesn't know anyone's watching) -- far more than I did at his age. Gender wouldn't play as much a role in my decision as personality, practice, and my instincts.


----------



## saraann (Dec 1, 2006)

Trust your gut. You are already having some kind of hesitation so I'd say no.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
However, I still don't buy the statistic that _one in three girls_ were molested as children.

And you shouldn't. This is a World Health Organization stat that is very misleading and it refers to sexual abuse of all females, not just children. First, it's worldwide, so probably doesn't actually apply to your community. Second, the WHO counted abuse that was a result of the female being female. So, for example, beatings in Arab countries for women not being sufficiently covered were counted. Female genital mutilation in Africa was counted. As were rape, actual molestation and such. Also, sex between, say, a 17 YO and an 18 YO high school student was counted -- a bit of a stretch for me, personally. All terrible things to have happen, all things that shouldn't happen in the world. But not necessarily all things that are relevent to hiring a babysitter, IMHO.

Personally, I wouldn't leave any young child with a sitter so young, regardless of gender. And I wouldn't hire any sitter until after some serious interaction, observation, reference checking and so forth. But after that, male or female are fine with me. My son's DCP had a male assist. (high school age) for the first couple of years and he was DS's favorite caregiver. And I wasn't in the least worried about it. And the idea that my son will be blanket judged and condemmed on the basis of a seriously distorted version of statistics is really disturbing.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

No. Never. No way.
I was babysat by boys mostly since my younger brother was a terrible kid. I am almost positive one molested me when I was very little. And we got babysat alot.
One of my male babysitters killed himself when he was in his early 20's.
I do recall them wanting to watch me change into my pjs and things like that but I was to young to remember. Like 2-3 Even if it was appropriate it did not feel like it to me at the time. No never no how.

ESPECIALLY not one I did not know.

I have a son. btw.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Knowing statistics doesn't help me at all choose between two sitters. That particular male sitter vs. one particular female sitter, the statistic doesn't matter. That one girl might be the one in a thousand (or whatever) that is the bad apple. I can just go on gut, observation, etc.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Ok. That is the thing about molesters tho. They are mostly male and they are sneaky.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I find this discussion fascinating. I remember when we were making the decision to homeschool, one of the many things we talked about was the safety issue. So I wonder, for those of you who wouldn't use a male babysitter, how do you feel about a male teacher? After all, that is a trusted adult who is left alone with and in a position of authority over your child.

I'm not sure how I feel about all this. I do agree it is wrong to judge someone based on their gender. But it can become difficult to sort out actual instinctual fear vs. hysterical fear.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Knowing statistics doesn't help me at all choose between two sitters. That particular male sitter vs. one particular female sitter, the statistic doesn't matter. That one girl might be the one in a thousand (or whatever) that is the bad apple. I can just go on gut, observation, etc.

No, that's exactly why statistics DO help you in that kind of situation! Let's say there are two barrels of apples. One barrel is statistically known to have between 25-40% of its contents contaminated by toxic chemicals. The other is statistically known to have between 1-10% of its contents contaminated by the same chemicals. Someone places an apple from each barrel in front of you--which one do you choose? There's no way to smell or otherwise detect the chemical...go with statistics and you have a 10% or less chance of getting poisoned with Barrel B, vs over a 1 in 4 chance of getting poisoned with Barrel A.

In any event, the greatest likelihood is that any apple you pick will not be contaminated. That does not negate the fact that Barrel A's contents are more likely to be toxic than Barrel B's.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

good analogy. i am unsubbing as the lack of understanding here is making me sick.


----------



## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I completely agree with Flor (her first post).

I wouldn't have an issue in the world with a male sitter, but I'd have issues with a 13 year old sitter. Honestly, I really doubt I'd let anyone under 18 watch a child under 3. After 3ish, then I'd be less hesitant about it.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Knowing statistics doesn't help me at all choose between two sitters. That particular male sitter vs. one particular female sitter, the statistic doesn't matter. That one girl might be the one in a thousand (or whatever) that is the bad apple. I can just go on gut, observation, etc.

This is exactly how I feel about it.

thismama: My view on the issue doesn't change, whether the child being babysat is a girl or a boy. Boys can also be sexually abused, so how does my belief that it's unfair to discriminate against a boy sitter, based on his gender, equate to evidence of misogyny? Saying "no male babysitters", based on statistics, is completely unfair to the entire gender. That has nothing to do with valuing boys more, and it certainly doesn't mean that I don't care if girls are molested. I don't want to see any child molested - ever...but I'm going to trust my gut over the stats, every time.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
No, that's exactly why statistics DO help you in that kind of situation! Let's say there are two barrels of apples. One barrel is statistically known to have between 25-40% of its contents contaminated by toxic chemicals. The other is statistically known to have between 1-10% of its contents contaminated by the same chemicals. Someone places an apple from each barrel in front of you--which one do you choose? *There's no way to smell or otherwise detect the chemical*...go with statistics and you have a 10% or less chance of getting poisoned with Barrel B, vs over a 1 in 4 chance of getting poisoned with Barrel A.

My mom asked me in grade six if my elementary school janitor had ever said or done anything inappropriate. She didn't like the vibe she got from him. (I lied and said "no".) He was the only male she ever asked that about...and the only male who molested me. (Actually, that's not entirely true, but the only other one was severely brain-damaged, and I would never have been left in his care, in any case.)

My point? Pedophiles aren't apples. Yes - they look like anybody else, but there are cues and "vibes" are real. There's one boy I know that I won't have babysit my kids - can't put my finger on what it is about him that makes me not trust him, but I don't. He'll never babysit for me - but it's not because he has a penis.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, my gut tells me to think about the stats. You cannot look at someone and know. For me, there are a few trusted men who I feel like I can look at them and know they are safe. But randomly you can't just trust your gut. Many, many men molest.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, my gut tells me to think about the stats. *You cannot look at someone and know.* For me, there are a few trusted men who I feel like I can look at them and know they are safe. But randomly you can't just trust your gut. Many, many men molest.

I wouldn't "look" at someone and let them babysit my kids, anyway. I'd get to know them and make sure I felt okay with them around my kids before I'd let them babysit.

Based on your above view, we should never let _anyone_ babysit our kids, unless we think emotional and physical abuse don't matter. Honestly - I have a lot of friends who have been sexually molested, and the _only_ one who was molested by a babysitter was my ex, and the sitter was female.

My gut ignores stats completely - on almost everything. That doesn't make me a misogynist.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

It depends on the 13yo in question and how mature he is. I'd use the exact same criteria for a babysitter whether it was a boy or a girl. I'd certainly allow a teenaged boy to babysit for my DS. I might not have allowed a boy to babysit when my girls were a little younger, but only because of their own comfort levels, not any inherent lack of trust.

Now that my oldest is 12, I wouldn't consider any babysitter under age 16 if I felt she needed to be babysat at all, and I certainly wouldn't leave her alone with a boy only a year older than her!


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
No, that's exactly why statistics DO help you in that kind of situation! Let's say there are two barrels of apples. One barrel is statistically known to have between 25-40% of its contents contaminated by toxic chemicals. The other is statistically known to have between 1-10% of its contents contaminated by the same chemicals. Someone places an apple from each barrel in front of you--which one do you choose? There's no way to smell or otherwise detect the chemical...go with statistics and you have a 10% or less chance of getting poisoned with Barrel B, vs over a 1 in 4 chance of getting poisoned with Barrel A.

In any event, the greatest likelihood is that any apple you pick will not be contaminated. That does not negate the fact that Barrel A's contents are more likely to be toxic than Barrel B's.

Yeah, I get that, but *I* still might get the bad apple!!! I just dont' think that statistics can tell me much about an individual person. To use a backwards anaology-- my chance of winning the lottery is VERY slim, but it was just as slim as the person who actually won. To hire a babysitter, I need to go on more than statistics. Even if I crunch the numbers and say, statistically, to keep my child safe, I need a woman between the ages of 24-50, with a college education, with brown hair and glasses. . . .she might still be a bad sitter for my kid.

But, most importantly, I wouldn't let a 13 yo babysit.


----------



## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsElle07* 
Females are actually statistically far less likely to abuse. Operating under your assumption, if both boys and girls are likely to abuse, then we shouldn't be leaving our children with anyone.

Physically, maybe. Emotionally, I don't believe it.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

My point? Pedophiles aren't apples. Yes - they look like anybody else, but there are cues and "vibes" are real. There's one boy I know that I won't have babysit my kids - can't put my finger on what it is about him that makes me not trust him, but I don't. He'll never babysit for me - but it's not because he has a penis.

There SOMETIMES are vibes. Other times, there are not. Going back to statistics, let's say that 50% of the contaminated apples have a mark on them or a faint odor. That still leaves an awful lot of apples that are contaminated with NO way of giving away that they are, and I'd still go with statistics over a "gut" feeling that maybe Barrel A is all ok after all.

I also won't let my child play at a home where there is a gun or a pool. It's definitely possible that she could be injured in an accident that involves factors other than those things, but statistically it is far more likely that she will be an accident where one of those factors is present. Just like we are unlikely to get in a car accident tomorrow, but if she's not in a car seat if we are, she's far more likely to be seriously injured than if she is in a car seat.


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

rather, my remarks are about the gentle debate that has ensued.

It's great how non-sexist we as a society are moving toward being. I hope folks don't get so attached to these ideals that they kind have blinders on to certain realities. I do understand that it's really unpleasant to accept the statistics... to comprehend the ugliness that is occuring in our midst.

It is wonderful that most people don't have direct knowledge of how real childhood sexual abuse IS, and what havoc it plays on the victims and their families, their whole lives. What I wouldn't give to be one of those people, but, I'm not. I know about it. I know a lot about it, I know a lot of people who've lived it as well, as a function of my education and healing from it, such as I have been able to do.

I have had the full-circle moment in my life when I could be GRATEFUL that I knew it as well as I did, because knowing, recognizing, being prepared to ACT, _protected_ my then 2 year-old dd from being left in the preschool class of a wonderful, well-educated, well-liked young male teacher whose face I later saw on the front page of the city's newspaper. He'd sexually molested DOZENS of his pupils, boys and girls. Now in jail. 29 victims in less than a year, all during school... naptime... other teachers on the other side of a thin wall.

None of their parents apparently saw what I saw, felt what I did; none of his COLLEAGUES or the school director saw--they sang his praises. That and the fact that as a single mom, I loved the idea of my dd having a man for a teacher--you know, since her dad was out of the picture, and the many uncles were not an every day thing, pushed me to really want to think favorably about this teacher.

What I saw was just a little hint... nothing I could/would name at the time: I just couldn't sleep the night before what would have been her first day, and I couldn't take my dd to him. It was a hard sacrifice: I needed that preschool--well, daycare is what it was. But I couldn't accept the idea of this kid (he was about 22) changing my dd's diapers, holding her for naptime. I didn't want to say what I was thinking: what I was thinking was simply that he was a male and I couldn't wrap my head around why he was a preschool teacher, what could make a young man want to do this for his life's work? I had same age nephews and thought, would any of them in a million years choose this as a career? They love kids, but, daycare teacher? That's all I could SAY to myself about it at the time. And I felt really guilty for being so sexist! More than half of my own brothers are outstanding fathers, loving, attentive, natural with kids: and I know other men who were completely trustworthy with kids. It was a real argument in my head.

But, I still trusted my intuition even though my head could only seem to articulate, "I don't get why this guy wants to be a preschool teacher." My intuition, which was causing my stomach to tighten, was picking up that his intentions were not good.

So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on _not wanting to judge based on gender_, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.

Can you imagine what I felt when I saw that face on the front page? I had to be picked up off the floor... my legs were jelly. THAT close. I'd nearly talked myself into taking her in there despite my inner resistance... I nearly did. I so needed that daycare... it was the only one that would work for me so I could take certain classes... .

I'm not saying "be sexist." I'm saying, sexism isn't a part of this discussion. It's intuition, and it may not always speak to you in literal language... it may be in symbols. It may use a sexist symbol to tell you: "Not good."


----------



## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

We don't use sitters, but if we did, our friend's 14 year old son would be at the top of my list. The 13 year old girl next door, not so much . . . she's been sheltered her whole life and my 4 year old is more worldly than she is. I wouldn't use gender as a factor in my decision . . . it would be based on how the sitter interacted with my kids and how mature they appeared to be.

I was babysitting for three kids at a time at 13, and unlike some of the previous posters, I don't think it was a bad or even semi-bad idea. The kids loved me and I loved them, and I was plenty responsible. I think 12-13 is a good age to start babysitting, 10-11 for being a mothers helper.


----------



## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

This thread is so sad to me especially as the Mama of a soon to be 15 yo son. Its interesting because when we first bought our house almost 3 years ago we had neighbors a few doors away who asked my son to babysit their then 3 and 5 yo when he was 12. It was for about 2 hours, I was at home and had given ds my cell and the parents had gone to dinner about 10 mins away. My son loved the experience and was thinking of starting a babysitting service afterwards but ended up with no customers. Its funny in a not so funny way because in the end he started doing yard work very gender specific but at least no one thought he was strange.

I have never been abused but abuse was in my family as my Mama was abused ao I understand the fears and concerns, but I am not comfortable making blanket statements about gender.

Shay


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, my gut tells me to think about the stats. You cannot look at someone and know. For me, there are a few trusted men who I feel like I can look at them and know they are safe. But randomly you can't just trust your gut. Many, many men molest.

And many, many, many, many, many MORE men do NOT.

I'm very sorry that your personal experiences have led you to go through life distrusting and fearing almost all men. But the truth is, the VAST majority of men do not deserve this distrust and fear.

By all means, get to know a sitter -- male OR female -- extremely well before entrusting them with a precious child. Obviously, you don't leave your child with somebody "random". But don't write off half of our population just because of the evil actions of some.

There are a lot of murderers out there, but you can't spend your life wondering if every man or woman you get into an elevator with is going to slit your throat the minute you are alone together. A lot of people die in car accidents every day, but you can't think about getting into a fatal crash every time you start the engine.

Life is a series of calculated risks. You evaluate the situation as carefully as you can and then move forward. You don't get in the elevator with the sketchy looking person but the delivery guy seems okay. You won't drive in a blizzard but if the weather report looks good you buckle up and go. And you meet the sitter and get to know him/or her VERY well before you leave them with your child.

Automatically making these choices without evaluation can leave one paralyzed with fear.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

I wouldn't trust a male babysitter and it's because of my history of sexual abuse. Once your a victim how do you move past it? To me it's not worth the risk to my 3 boys.


----------



## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Haven't had time to read all the other posts but answer would no. That said I would use him as a helper to play with the kids while I was home in order to get stuff done but I would never leave the house with someone so young babysitting (male or female).


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Yes I would. If the 13 yo were mature enough and was someone I knew I would have no problem with male or female. In fact, dd's very first sitter was a 14 yo boy and he was wonderful. He had lots of references, including people who had used him as a mother's helper. I had known him for years. I had also had sitters that we ended up "firing" (for lack of a better word) before we left the house because I got a vibe I did not like. We paid them half their expected salary and drove them home. We are lucky in that we live smack dab in the middle of our small town and can drop in on sitters thoughout the night. We always do at least once and sometimes lots of times. Anytime we are going to be somewhere that I know we cannot stop by we ONLY use trusted and very close friends as sitters. I have read DeBecker's two books and I agree with a lot of what he says, I refuse to pass on the message that men cannot be trusted. I use my insticts, I check references, and I check up on the sitters and feel very comfortable with that system. I will admit though, that I have found most male sitters to be slightly less mature at any given age and less interested in sitting so we have not used as many males as females. However, I am very saddened about the attitude that it is OK to judge based only on gender. How sad for the boys growing up right now


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
And many, many, many, many, many MORE men do NOT.

I'm very sorry that your personal experiences have led you to go through life distrusting and fearing almost all men. But the truth is, the VAST majority of men do not deserve this distrust and fear.

By all means, get to know a sitter -- male OR female -- extremely well before entrusting them with a precious child. Obviously, you don't leave your child with somebody "random". But don't write off half of our population just because of the evil actions of some.

Did you (and others) even read my posts? Did you see where I said that I do leave my child in the care of a grown man who I trust? I know him really well, he is the papa of one of my kiddo's best friends, he is cool, and I am comfortable with him.

I'm saying I'm aware of the statistical reality. And I make my decisions including this information. I don't know that the "VAST majority" of men don't deserve distrust and fear. Who exactly is molesting so many of my friends? Kwim? I betcha their mamas love their boys; it doesn't make the reality my daughter lives in any less real.

I hear you shayinme about your son, and that is really heartbreaking.







And so unfortunate because it perpetuates the divide in gender roles that I would love to see gone.

I can't/won't risk my daughter for it, and for me protecting her includes an extra screening process for men and boys. Unfortunate yes, but it's my reality as I attempt to protect my child from abuse. But if I knew your boy, really well, it is very possible that I would feel comfortable with him.

It's a crap issue to have to think/argue about, really it is.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Let me say that I don't think it is "OK" to judge based on gender but with my history it happens. I can't help but look at a male and wonder if they are capable....I don't know how to get past it and I'm not sure I want to get passed it. I don't think I could survive trusting that much ever again.

I also believe that molestation is a growing problem. I do think we hear about it more today but I think it's more common than some of you believe. Of course I don't have statistics but I am truly surprised how many of you have not been put in this situation. For me growing up I was often surprised when a male adult DIDN'T approach me sexually. I was a perfect target for predators with a single mom, lack of supervision, eager to please, loved attention and been around unfamiliar men often.

I have also seen the opposite happen when someone falsely accuses someone of being inappropriate. That is as devistating for the one accused. I think I would want to protect my sons from that situation as well.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Just like we are unlikely to get in a car accident tomorrow, but if she's not in a car seat if we are, she's far more likely to be seriously injured than if she is in a car seat.
Actually, if we're talking statistics, it's very likely you will get into a car accident tomorrow, far more likely than your child being molested or kidnapped.

Quote:

So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on not wanting to judge based on gender, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.
I completely agree with this. That's what I meant when I said instinctual fear vs. hysterical fear.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Actually, if we're talking statistics, it's very likely you will get into a car accident tomorrow, far more likely than your child being molested or kidnapped.

Kidnapped yes. Molested no.

I am all for diminishing fear and paranoia about stupid things. All this hype about kidnapping is highly overblown IMO. "Stranger danger" I have huge problems with... I think it teaches children some hardcore fear well out of proportion to the reality. But being molested by men in positions of trust... well that's something that happens a lot, so it is a concern I take seriously.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
My mom asked me in grade six if my elementary school janitor had ever said or done anything inappropriate. She didn't like the vibe she got from him. (I lied and said "no".) He was the only male she ever asked that about...and the only male who molested me.

A little off topic, but I can I ask why you didn't tell her? I am very curious about this. It's a big discussion dh and I after reading the Gift of Fear. He talks about having the kind of relationship with your child that lets your child feel safe telling you the truth, but we were both still so afraid that our children wouldn't tell us.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Kidnapped yes. Molested no.

I am all for diminishing fear and paranoia about stupid things. All this hype about kidnapping is highly overblown IMO. "Stranger danger" I have huge problems with... I think it teaches children some hardcore fear well out of proportion to the reality. But being molested by men in positions of trust... well that's something that happens a lot, so it is a concern I take seriously.

Hmm, I don't know the exacts stats (no one does apparently) but I would guess on any given day, you are more likely to have a car accident than be molested. Although I do believe molestation numbers are high.

Would you allow your child to have a male schoolteacher? Or play at a friend's house when their father or brother or uncle was home? (I'm not trying to be argumentative - I am genuinely curious about this issue.)


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Hmm, I don't know the exacts stats (no one does apparently) but I would guess on any given day, you are more likely to have a car accident than be molested. Although I do believe molestation numbers are high.

Would you allow your child to have a male schoolteacher? Or play at a friend's house when their father or brother or uncle was home? (I'm not trying to be argumentative - I am genuinely curious about this issue.)

No, it's okay. I'm just saying what I do. It sounds worse on the internet as I type it out than it feels to me in my life, but anyway...









I believe molestation is more likely than a major car accident because of the sheer number of women I know who were molested, vs. the number of women who have been in a major car accident. I base my IRL decisions about my family on that kind of anecdotal information. But I imagine it would hold up statistically.

Male schoolteacher - Yes. My child will be older then (she is only 3 now). The environment will be different, with other students, other teachers, a system of accountability. That doesn't eliminate the risk, but IMO it lowers it a fair bit. The reality is my child could be molested during her childhood, I cannot entirely prevent that risk without sequestering her away, which it taking things too far IMO. Sort of like the 'stranger danger' approach to kidnapping. Well yes they could be kidnapped, but are you going to terrify them to prevent that risk? Yk? The response is out of proportion to the risk, IMO, as it would be if I said my kiddo couldn't have a male schoolteacher.

I can't say I wouldn't have some concern with a male schoolteacher, although I also think there are tremendous benefits. I would definitely meet him and the question "could this man molest my child?" will go thru my head, I can't say it wouldn't.

Play at a friend's house while a father/brother/uncle is home: Well, my child's caregiver's grown sons are sometimes home while my kiddo is there. They have police checks, but that means very little as we all know. I have wondered about the possibility for molestation, but then decided the opportunity would probably not present itself easily as the in home centre is small and my child would cry if alone with a man, because she is shy, which would alert the caregiver. This is how I think, how I feel I have to think.









Other situations I assess. She rarely plays at friends' houses, except those I trust. And in the situations I trust, yes she can be there while the papa is home. Of course, this is the papa I trust. I would assess each situation individually for how much I trust the male in the situation, and how likely it would be that he would have opportunity to harm my child.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

The FBI, iirc, says the rate is between 1/3 and 1/8. No matter if the high end or the low end is the right one, that's high. Kidnapping is much, much rarer.

Car accidents have a much wider range of outcomes. People are generally fairly f*ed up after being sexually violated. But with a safety belt or car seat, you can weather a lot of car accidents pretty much unscathed. It's reasonable to expect that with precautions taken, damage from a car accident can effectively be minimized. But there's no such thing as a sexual fender bender. ANY incident of sexual molestation, no matter how minor, is likely to be psychologically devestating.

And no, I will not let my daughter play in homes where there are older boys or adult men hanging around. Not unattended, at any rate. And ftr, my partner isn't offended at the idea that he might be treated the same way by other girls' parents. He'd rather everyone feel comfortable than try to push some bogus "gender equality" issue. He knows how many women are dealing with a past that includes exploitative men and far be it from him to expect them all to give him a free pass automatically just because *he* knows he's a good guy.

IMO that's part of what makes a good guy--not wanting to push women's limits.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
IMO that's part of what makes a good guy--not wanting to push women's limits.

Yeah! A guy like that is a guy I am significantly more likely to trust.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
The FBI, iirc, says the rate is between 1/3 and 1/8. No matter if the high end or the low end is the right one, that's high. Kidnapping is much, much rarer.

Car accidents have a much wider range of outcomes. People are generally fairly f*ed up after being sexually violated. But with a safety belt or car seat, you can weather a lot of car accidents pretty much unscathed. It's reasonable to expect that with precautions taken, damage from a car accident can effectively be minimized. But there's no such thing as a sexual fender bender. ANY incident of sexual molestation, no matter how minor, is likely to be psychologically devestating.

And no, I will not let my daughter play in homes where there are older boys or adult men hanging around. Not unattended, at any rate. And ftr, my partner isn't offended at the idea that he might be treated the same way by other girls' parents. He'd rather everyone feel comfortable than try to push some bogus "gender equality" issue. He knows how many women are dealing with a past that includes exploitative men and far be it from him to expect them all to give him a free pass automatically just because *he* knows he's a good guy.

IMO that's part of what makes a good guy--not wanting to push women's limits.









:


----------



## Ok (Feb 6, 2004)

I would meet the child who wants to babysit. I would talk to him and have him interact with my kids while I'm there. I'd do a trial 15min me stepping outside, w/ my cell phone. I'd make sure he knows how to call my cell phone. I'd want to know if his parent/caregiver would be at home during the time he was with my kids.

My dh is the SAHP in this house. My dad was the emotional caregiver of my family growing up (and I have 3 older brothers, all very loving, responsible and kind). I work with 5th graders (10yo-11yo) and the yolk of "responsible" isn't associated with gender.

Notwithstanding the "fact" that there are child predators in the world, it saddens me that all young men are seemingly suspects to some of you. My 11yo ds is so amazingly good with his youngest brother, helps in the nursery at church and just generally loves to play with young children whereever they are. He's not the most responsible type, so babysitting isn't in his immediate future. But he's so wonderful and hands-on with the kids. He's a total AP-dad-in-training.

So anyway, if he seemed responsible, calm and interactive with my kids-- yes, I'd let him babysit.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm not getting the judgment toward mamas who don't trust male caregivers. I mean, what else would you have us do? Yk? It sounds crappy in theory, I recognize that. But my reality is that about *half*, fully 1 in 2, at *least* 1 in 3, of my female friends and lovers were molested. By fathers, brothers, male neighbours both grown and not yet grown. And most of them have long lasting issues related to that, issues that deeply affect their sexual lives, and their lives more generally. Big, deep, life-interrupting, soul-crushing pain.

I have a 3 year old daughter. My daughter, my baby. The child in this world I am chosen to guide and protect. Beautiful new soul, shining and radiant and vulnerable and lovely. You mamas know how it is.

How could I be asked to not use my life experiences and the information I have, to protect her in this way? Because people don't want their boys judged? It just does not compute, I feel that I would be failing in my duty if, knowing what I do, I did not take extra steps to guard my child against this very present danger.

This is theory, vs. my girl. I pick my girlie every single time.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

I did not unsub and I would ask that all mothers here listen deeply to their hearts and souls and DO WHAT IS RIGHT by your child. NOt what is pc.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I just wanted to clarify that I don't see this as "protecting boys' feelings" vs. "protecting girls." I have two little boys, and my concern at this point is not hurting their feelings, but keeping them safe, as boys are molested as well. Which is obviously why I had to think twice about hiring a male babysitter. Of course, to be fair, I have never left them with anyone other than family or a very trusted friend, male or female. So for me this I guess this comes down to an issue of trust in general, whether it be male or female, with a little extra concern when the person is male. (And to get back to my OP, the fact that he is only 13 concerns me as well.)

Dh is definitely less likely to trust a male caregiver. And like a pp mentioned, he has no issues with someone not being trusting of him just because he is male. He gets why that is, and knows it's not anything personal.

However, the subtle messages we give our children on both sides of this issue really bug me: boys are dangerous and cannot be trusted, and girls are victims in need of protection. I feel like these can be self fulfilling prophecies.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Just to clarify, I would have the same issues with a male caregiver if/when I have a male child. Unfortunately men in this culture frequently perp against those who are vulnerable.


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
A little off topic, but I can I ask why you didn't tell her? I am very curious about this. It's a big discussion dh and I after reading the Gift of Fear. He talks about having the kind of relationship with your child that lets your child feel safe telling you the truth, but we were both still so afraid that our children wouldn't tell us.

If you have ever been molested, you would understand why she said no. People often think and say, why did you not say something, or why did it take you so long to tell someone, not a easy question to answer unless you have been molested.


----------



## Panthira (Jun 13, 2005)

I haven't read the other posts (in a hurry), but I wanted to say I let a 13 yr old watch my children when they were younger.
I was in a unique situation, with a child in a wheelchair and his twin sister (not in a wheelchair), and could not find anyone to watch them when I needed to work on weekends, because my boy was in a wheelchair.

I knew the 13 yr old(s) who watched my children, well. It was actually 2 - 13 yr olds, but they watch them every other weekend, switching off. These kids used to hang out at my house when their parents were off doing whatever, leaving the kids home alone at late hours. I took them in so they would have somewhere to go with adult supervision, and we became fast friends. I'm still best friends with one of them who is now 24 yrs old.

ANyway, they did a superb job watching my young ones, and my daughter still has fond memories of being read to by them.


----------



## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Actually, if we're talking statistics, it's very likely you will get into a car accident tomorrow, far more likely than your child being molested or kidnapped.

I completely agree with this. That's what I meant when I said instinctual fear vs. hysterical fear.

Insn't the statistic 1 in 4 for girls being molested in their childhoods??

I was molested by a 12 year old male babysitter when I was 5. I would NOT let a teen boy babysit my child.

Lisa


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

gender would not be an issue for me. it woudl be age and maturity.


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers* 
I did/do use a 13 year old neighbor (and his 15 year old sister) and my son LOVES it. HE plays soccer and baseball and basketball with them, where his sister usually plays more with our daughters. At 13, he's more of "mothers helper" in that I don't leave them for long periods of time, and our kids are VERY verbal about who they like/don't like in sitters.

I did read Gavin de Becker, and honestly, in my gut, I trust this family. I do have a son, and don't want him to feel like ALL men are abusers. A good friend of mine was abused by a female sitter, so I tend to go more on my gut rather than on the sex of the sitter.

Thank G-d for this statement! man, some of these posts are scaring me for the future of my 3 sons.


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon* 
I've used 13 year olds as babysitters, but they have been all girls. I think that at that age, girls are more mature than boys are. I have used older boy sitters, they were about 16/17 years old. I was completely comfortable with it and they did a great job.

i think that is generally true, BUT not always the case. I would have NEVER left my baby with my 13 stepdaughter. she was not mature enough. I babysat when i was 11+ and was a pretty good babysitter....but i have met many boys that are much more mature at 13 than my stepdaughter.


----------



## Leta (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 

However, the subtle messages we give our children on both sides of this issue really bug me: boys are dangerous and cannot be trusted, and girls are victims in need of protection. I feel like these can be self fulfilling prophecies.

Yep.


----------



## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I understand that mamas of boys feel protective. It's interesting though that so many here are taking the position that it is as or more important that their boys not be assumed about based on their gender, than it is that my child not be sexually assaulted.

That to me is the mark of a misogynist culture.

im not taking the position that its more important. my position is simply that no one should be judged on gender alone (or, well...WE here wouldnt be able to vote, etc.).

Its important to me to keep my children SAFE. that is #1 priority. after that, I consider it important to shape their world view..and in my case, that means defending their rights as HUMAN BEINGS to be judged based on their abilities, etc. and not on their gender.

and just a disclaimer here: I dont allow my 16 yo to babysit his 1 yo brother b/c he is not mature enough. Not based on his gender.

Just wanted to clarify my position....i certainly do not consider child safety second to any consideration.


----------



## LookMommy! (Jun 16, 2002)

We use male babysitters (even 13 year olds), male camp counsellors, etc. There have been no incidences that I am aware of with my daughters or son. Of course, I believe it happens, and I can't deny reality even though I am the mother of a son, wife to dh, 2 brothers, etc.

On the other hand, we have witnessed 2 boys who were accused of molestation, who we believe are innocent. We don't know for sure, of course. As a result though, my dh (national director of a religious youth group) makes it a point to NEVER be alone with a girl, in the office, at home, or in the car. Sometimes it can't be helped (driving home a babysitter or something), but he tries to avoid it, and takes along my dd when he is giving her friend a lift home, or whatever. Dd1 had a friend who used to have peepee accidents (they were maybe 4) and dh, if he was alone in the house with the girls, would not help her wash up (just gave her clean clothes and sent her to try to manage the best she could in the bathroom), just in case. It is just too easy to have one's reputation and career ruined over a misunderstanding or intentionally false accusation.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

This is just sad....

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html


----------



## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I have a 3 year old daughter. My daughter, my baby. The child in this world I am chosen to guide and protect. Beautiful new soul, shining and radiant and vulnerable and lovely. You mamas know how it is.

How could I be asked to not use my life experiences and the information I have, to protect her in this way? Because people don't want their boys judged? It just does not compute, I feel that I would be failing in my duty if, knowing what I do, I did not take extra steps to guard my child against this very present danger.

This is theory, vs. my girl. I pick my girlie every single time.









I almost hesitate to ask this because I don't want to be offensive or insensitive in any way but what would you do if you have a son? By all means you cannot act like you haven't had the life experiences that you have but if you have a son, I think you would find that the same Mama bear instinct that has you wanting to protect your dd is what makes the Mamas of boys want to protect them.

I have a son and a daughter so I have to be aware of both sides, just like I want to make sure nothing happens to my daughter, its also important to me that society does not judge my son by virtue of his gender and in our case, race because he is biracial.

My beautiful son refuses to do so many things now because society sees him as a potential this or that and its wrong.







(he's out skateboarding he gets stopped, in a store he gets followed around, women clutch their purses, erc)

What can we do so that boys are not judged? It feels so disheartening to me that on a site like this that so many Mamas would judge boys like this. I recognize that for the vast majority of posters many have young kids so its hard to understand how it feels that someone would look at your baby (they are still yoiur baby even when they grow up) and assume the worse based off no solid evidence.

By all means if someone's instinct is sending off alarms about a specific person that is one thing but to just blanketedly judge just feels wrong. Its not about being PC at all, how can we raise them to be kind, gentle and loving but then when they get to a certain age, tell them sorry this is the deal and it since you are a boy society says ABC.

Again I am not trying to offend but as the Mama of a teenage son its hard to sit and be still. Especially because my son was the kid interested in babysitting and actually it was because when my brother was a teenager he used to babysit my brother when I was a single Mama. So in my son's mind until I actually told him that people probably thought it was odd for him to babysit he actually had never even thought it was odd.

Shay


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, it is hard for me to say, as you acknowledge, because I do not have a son.

What I think I will do, is protect my son where he is vulnerable. As I said before I would screen male caregivers of my son in the same way I do for my daughter.

I don't know how I would *address* it with my son as he grows, I cannot fathom that at this point. But I know what my philosophy would be, which is that my son has gender privilege because of his gender, as I and my daughter have race privilege because of our skin. And although I would hope and pray my son would be a person who is trustworthy with young children, I cannot expect that people would offer their children blindly to test out my theory and my belief in my son's trustworthiness, strong and heartfelt as it may be.

Women and children have been harmed at the hands of men, that is the legacy my children of both (any) gender are born into, and it is theirs to change. I would hope my sons will be part of the generation who will change that, who will make it so that mothers like myself do not have to worry for our children's bodily safety in the future.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

For me it's not so much as judging boys (I have three of my own) as avoiding the situation altogether. If you are victimized it changes your life and the reality is that it's out there and widespread. My concern is for all the mommas that don't even consider the possibility. That truly boggles my mind.

I have been molested just playing at a friends house however I do let my oldest go to other peoples houses. It does make me uncomfortable but he's at the age where we talk about it.


----------



## fishface (Jan 6, 2007)

Depending on the kid, I absolutely would. Not every 13-year-old is at the same level of maturity as the next one. His gender should have nothing to do with it. If he's a good, responsible kid then I say go for it! To not allow a male caregiver because of a few bad apples (and in the grand scheme of things there are very, very few) seems foolish to me.


----------



## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
However, the subtle messages we give our children on both sides of this issue really bug me: boys are dangerous and cannot be trusted, and girls are victims in need of protection. I feel like these can be self fulfilling prophecies.











This whole thread is making me very sad for my sons.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

There is no 'prophecy' to fulfill. This is reality. I hardly think mamas sending our children out blindly is going to stop men from molesting girls and boy children. It hasn't so far. Men taking responsibility will stop it, nothing more and nothing less.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemy2ds* 
If you have ever been molested, you would understand why she said no. People often think and say, why did you not say something, or why did it take you so long to tell someone, not a easy question to answer unless you have been molested.

Oh, I didn't mean this to come off in a blaming way, not at all. I was curious as to how I can have a relationship with my children that would be more likely to have them tell me if something was happening.

For instance, as awesome and nurturing and attached and protective as my mom was, I'm not sure if I would have told her. She had always been very clear that she would go berserk and kill the person who ever hurt us. So I wonder if someone had molested me, if I would have been hesitant to tell her for fear of her going to jail for murdering them. She sure didn't mean for it to come off that way, she was just expressing her passion for protecting her children.


----------



## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

I think it is impossible to not let your past influence your decision in this. Many people here are saying that they, or people they know, were molested by male baby-sitters, so of course that would influence how they feel about this - how could it not?!

In my past I was cheated on by my husband - if I asked 99 other women here if they had been the victim of infidelity and they said no, I would be happy for them, but I would still be less willing to trust again, because of personal experience.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
There is no 'prophecy' to fulfill. This is reality. I hardly think mamas sending our children out blindly is going to stop men from molesting girls and boy children. It hasn't so far. Men taking responsibility will stop it, nothing more and nothing less.

Well, it is a reality, I agree with you there. And I'm certainly not talking about blindly sending your children off with anyone. But I think the subtle messages we send to children absolutely to have an effect. From everything I have read about molestation, perpetrators look for easier victims, children who are less likely to tell, or are scared, or have low self esteem. So a little girl who has somehow picked up the message that she is weak and in need of being protected is probably less likely to trust her instincts and feel proud of herself. (It's so hard to try to make myself clear about this in writing. I wish we could talk face to face!)

I also disagree that "men taking resonsibility will stop it, nothing more nothing less." Our society as a whole, women included, refuse to deal with this issue. How many mothers have turned their back when their children come to them and tell them what is happening? How many mothers bring boyfriends into their homes and turn a blind eye towards how it will affect their children? How many of us, men and women, are so uptight about sexuality that we raise children who are ashamed of themselves, and then act in inappropriate ways? Or are so embarassed to talk about it that they don't act when faced with it?

I am by no means and expert in this area, and don't claim to be. But these are just some of the thoughts I have about this.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fishface* 
Depending on the kid, I absolutely would. Not every 13-year-old is at the same level of maturity as the next one. His gender should have nothing to do with it. If he's a good, responsible kid then I say go for it! To not allow a male caregiver because of a few bad apples (and in the grand scheme of things there are very, very few) seems foolish to me.

I have to say that I am not foolish for protecting my sons from pedophiles. Do you know how to identify molesters?


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
But I think the subtle messages we send to children absolutely to have an effect. From everything I have read about molestation, perpetrators look for easier victims, children who are less likely to tell, or are scared, or have low self esteem. So a little girl who has somehow picked up the message that she is weak and in need of being protected is probably less likely to trust her instincts and feel proud of herself. (It's so hard to try to make myself clear about this in writing. I wish we could talk face to face!)

ITA. Which is why I choose to protect my daughter. I don't need to teach her anything about being weak and in need of protection. I also don't expose her to situations where she could pick up these messages by being molested.









Quote:

I also disagree that "men taking resonsibility will stop it, nothing more nothing less." Our society as a whole, women included, refuse to deal with this issue. How many mothers have turned their back when their children come to them and tell them what is happening? How many mothers bring boyfriends into their homes and turn a blind eye towards how it will affect their children? How many of us, men and women, are so uptight about sexuality that we raise children who are ashamed of themselves, and then act in inappropriate ways? Or are so embarassed to talk about it that they don't act when faced with it?
Yes. Or, say they wouldn't necessarily leave their husbands if they found out they were molesting a child? (Remember that thread?!







: ) Or, women denying that abuse happens and sending their children out without considering the need to protect them from the reality of it? Or, insisting that their son's right to not be held responsible for the actions of the men who came before them is as or more important than my child's right to be safe?

That said, we are talking here about how women aid and abet men who abuse. Women are not responsible for these men's actions. Men are. I would love to see more men like some of the men I know, and men I hear about here (BelgianSheepdog's dh, for example), who look to prove that they can be trusted before they expect to be trusted, and not the other way around.

Quote:

I am by no means and expert in this area, and don't claim to be. But these are just some of the thoughts I have about this.
Same here.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
A little off topic, but I can I ask why you didn't tell her? I am very curious about this. It's a big discussion dh and I after reading the Gift of Fear. He talks about having the kind of relationship with your child that lets your child feel safe telling you the truth, but we were both still so afraid that our children wouldn't tell us.

I'd been abused before - by my grandfather (brain damaged). It started at about age three, and went on until my brother spent the night the same weekend that we did, and told my mom how weird my grandma acted (sleeping on the floor at the edge of the living room while we slept _in_ the living room, for example). Mom found out what was going on, and that was the end of it.

We talked about it as a family, but unfortunately, there wasn't as much knowledge about the ramifications of this kind of thing back then. Mom totally understood that we'd been abused and traumatized...what she didn't understand was that my grandmother's constant refrain of "don't tell your mom - she won't let you come over here anymore" and "it's not his fault" had done serious damage to my self-image on the subject. I believed it was my fault, and I was set-up by that to be victimized again. These predators absolutely _do_ identify kids who have already been victimized, because they know they're already conditioned to keep their mouths shut and blame themselves.

I didn't tell mom about the janitor because grandma had me completely convinced that being sexually abused was something I brought on myself. The janitor, like my grandmother, bought me off with candy...since I accepted the candy, I was accepting what he did - right? How could I, as a self-conscious, pubescent 11/12 year old tell my mom that I was letting a 50+ year old man grope me for candy? (He also used to let me occasionally get the candy without touching me, so I could convince myself that _this_ time I was going to get past him again.)

My mom and I have a good relationship and we discuss just about everything now...but my self-hatred on this subject was too intense to discuss it rationally.

I finally told mom about it when I was about 23 or 24, when we were having a family discussion about the ramifications of what grandpa and grandma had done to me, my sister and my cousins.

Someone on here mentioned that they've known many girls who've been abused, and someone also said, "who's abusing all my friends?". Almost all of my friends - male and female - growing up were kids who had been sexually abused. I've made friends since who weren't. Almost all of my friends growing up - male and female - were the children of alcoholics. I've made friends since who weren't. If you'd asked me at age 21 what percentage of people were abused, I'd have guessed an awfully high number, as those were the people I was drawn to. I really do believe there's a certain kind of damage to the psyche from this kind of thing that attracts us to others who have been on the receiving end of it.

In addition to that factor...there really don't have to be _that_ many men (or women) doing this kind of thing to victimize a lot of kids. How many girls did that janitor molest over the years? My grandfather only molested four...he only had access to four of us after the brain damage occurred. The preschool teacher a previous poster mentioned had 29 _known_ victims. Also, one child will be molested multiple times, by multiple people - while another child is never touched at all. I'm sure my friend, who was raped by her step-father, her brother, an uncle, two cousins and a couple of boyfriends would have trouble believing that there really are men out there who don't do that. But, her perceptions are just as skewed by her experience as the people who still act as though this doesn't happen at all.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I also don't expose her to situations where she could pick up these messages by being molested.









How? By picking people you trust to watch your kids? That's exactly what I'd do...and I wouldn't exclude a boy. Earlier in this thread, expressing the belief that it's okay for a boy to babysit was accused of being a misogynistic mindset. You, yourself, said that there's a man who you let babysit. How is that any different? You trust one man and four women (if I remember correctly) to watch your dc...what I happen to know four men/boys and one woman whom I trust to watch my dc? It's not about gender - not even for you. It's about a level of trust.

Quote:

Yes. Or, say they wouldn't necessarily leave their husbands if they found out they were molesting a child? (Remember that thread?!







: ) Or, women denying that abuse happens and sending their children out without considering the need to protect them from the reality of it? Or, insisting that their son's right to not be held responsible for the actions of the men who came before them is as or more important than my child's right to be safe?

That said, we are talking here about how women aid and abet men who abuse. Women are not responsible for these men's actions. Men are.
This is interesting to me. In the case of me, my sister and my cousisn, a woman was absolutely responsible. She knew full well that her husband's brain damage had left him unable to tell what was right and wrong - that he'd become a pedophile. And, she bribed us, threatened us and lied to us to make sure that we'd keep coming over to visit her - to hell with our mental health, to hell with our relationships with our parents...as long as she got her grandparent visits, then everything was just _perfect_.

_She_ bought the candy used to bribe us, and she administered the bribes. _She_ told us not to tell. _She_ refused to consider having him put in a care facility. He was a brain-damaged cripple who was no longer capable of understanding that what he did was wrong...and she set up all of her female grandchildren as prey. He was not responsible, as he didn't have the mental capacity to _be_ responsible.

Quote:

I would love to see more men like some of the men I know, and men I hear about here (BelgianSheepdog's dh, for example), who look to prove that they can be trusted before they expect to be trusted, and not the other way around.
Nobody can _prove_ they can be trusted. That's why it's trust. _Anybody_ can betray our trust, no matter how many times they've earned it or "proved" that they're trustworthy.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Storm Bride - I'm sorry you had to go thru that.









I just want to clarify a couple of things:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I really do believe there's a certain kind of damage to the psyche from this kind of thing that attracts us to others who have been on the receiving end of it.

I'm the one who made the statements you quoted, and I have not myself been sexually abused. So it's not a case of me knowing lots of people who have been because I myself was abused. I was not.

Quote:

In addition to that factor...there really don't have to be _that_ many men (or women) doing this kind of thing to victimize a lot of kids.
This is true. But I've seen it brought up in defence of erring on the side of trusting. Statistically, I don't see how this makes a difference. I don't care if my child is abused by someone who has never abused anyone else, or by someone who has had 50 victims. It doesn't matter - she is still abused. Statistically, I need to look at how many girls (and boys, when I have a son) are abused - my daughter's chances of being molested have to do with that figure, and unfortunately that figure is very, very high.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How? By picking people you trust to watch your kids? That's exactly what I'd do...and I wouldn't exclude a boy.

I have never said I would *exclude* a boy. I said there is an extra set of questions I ask myself about a boy, and I am therefore less comfortable with a boy in general. Individual men, who I trust *after* considering that extra set of questions, are still in.

Quote:

Earlier in this thread, expressing the belief that it's okay for a boy to babysit was accused of being a misogynistic mindset.
Quote? That is not what I said. I said that being as or more concerned with men being 'judged' as with women and children being sexually abused is misogynist.

Quote:

It's not about gender - not even for you. It's about a level of trust.
It's about a level of trust that incorporates what I know about men and their likelihood stastically to perp.

Quote:

This is interesting to me. In the case of me, my sister and my cousisn, a woman was absolutely responsible. She knew full well that her husband's brain damage had left him unable to tell what was right and wrong - that he'd become a pedophile. And, she bribed us, threatened us and lied to us to make sure that we'd keep coming over to visit her - to hell with our mental health, to hell with our relationships with our parents...as long as she got her grandparent visits, then everything was just _perfect_.

_She_ bought the candy used to bribe us, and she administered the bribes. _She_ told us not to tell. _She_ refused to consider having him put in a care facility. He was a brain-damaged cripple who was no longer capable of understanding that what he did was wrong...and she set up all of her female grandchildren as prey. He was not responsible, as he didn't have the mental capacity to _be_ responsible.
Ugh. I'm sorry. I said that women do not statistically abuse nearly as much as men do, and I believe that to be true. This woman did not abuse you. She did unfortunately provide conditions for it to happen, which women do in many different ways. Which sucks, and needs to change.

I see minimizing the reality of sexual abuse of children by men also as aiding and abeting. Although not nearly to the degree that you experienced.









Quote:

Nobody can _prove_ they can be trusted. That's why it's trust. _Anybody_ can betray our trust, no matter how many times they've earned it or "proved" that they're trustworthy.
Very true. It is always a risk. I think it needs to be a calculated risk, and for me that calculation includes the statistical reality that heterosexually-identified men are perps more often than anyone else.

Crappy but true.


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Oh, I didn't mean this to come off in a blaming way, not at all. I was curious as to how I can have a relationship with my children that would be more likely to have them tell me if something was happening.

For instance, as awesome and nurturing and attached and protective as my mom was, I'm not sure if I would have told her. She had always been very clear that she would go berserk and kill the person who ever hurt us. So I wonder if someone had molested me, if I would have been hesitant to tell her for fear of her going to jail for murdering them. She sure didn't mean for it to come off that way, she was just expressing her passion for protecting her children.

No, I did not think that, it's just peple have asked me so many times why it took me 6yrs to day something about my my step-dad, and the only thing I can tell them is unless you have been in that situation, I cannot tell you the answer to that, it a very hard thing I find for some people to understand, again unless they have been in that situation.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

No. Only women, known very well by me and my Dd, watch her. This may mean lost positive experiences, but it also means she's less likely to experience the tragic ones.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Quote? That is not what I said. I said that being as or more concerned with men being 'judged' as with women and children being sexually abused is misogynist.

Okay. I misrembered what you said when I made my earlier post. I just don't see people's posts in this thread as being _more_ concerned with men being judged as they are with women and children being abused. B

Quote:

Ugh. I'm sorry. I said that women do not statistically abuse nearly as much as men do, and I believe that to be true. This woman did not abuse you. She did unfortunately provide conditions for it to happen, which women do in many different ways. Which sucks, and needs to change.

I see minimizing the reality of sexual abuse of children by men also as aiding and abeting. Although not nearly to the degree that you experienced.









My grandmother didn't sexually abuse me, but she absolutely did abuse me. She did worse to one of my cousins. This girl was helping grandpa pee - holding his penis for him - she'd always been told to obey her elders, and he'd asked for help. (He was paralyzed on one side, and couldn't manage by himself.) She was about four or five. Grandma walked in, started screaming at the "dirty little girl", and left he sitting in a bathtub for a very long time, after scrubbing her violently with a brush.

She also forced us all to kiss our grandpa goodnight and goodbye. (He didn't care, one way or the other.) Can you imagine, as a small child, being forced to kiss a man who 1) was routinely sexually abusing you at night, and 2) usually had spittle full of cookie crumbs running down one side of his chin, from the paralysis? That's not _direct_ sexual abuse, but given her knowledge of his night-time activities, it was still sexual abuse, imo. (I freely admit that my opinion of this kind of situation is shaped by my experience, and my experiences do seem to be a bit out of the ordinary.)

Quote:

Very true. It is always a risk. I think it needs to be a calculated risk, and for me that calculation includes the statistical reality that heterosexually-identified men are perps more often than anyone else.
Fair enough. I misunderstood your posts to mean that you wouldn't even consider a boy (possibly mixing you up with other posters).

Quote:

Crappy but true.
Yeah, that.


----------



## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

I have dated 3 different guys whose FIRST sexual encounter was with FEMALE babysitters! I haven't read but a few responses, but unfortunately, sexual misconduct can happen with babysitters - male or female.


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsElle07* 
Nope. Absolutely not.

You should read the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker... in it, he talks about one of the best ways you can avoid having your children become the victim of sexual abuse (which, unfortunately, something like 1 in 3 girls are) is to not allow them to have male caregivers. Most people are abused by someone their mother trusts.









Not to cast aspersions on this boy -- he is probably a lovely young man. I just think it's a wise policy to have.

I agree!


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on _not wanting to judge based on gender_, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.
."

I agree with you. While I don't think that knowing statistics necessarily keeps my child safe, I agree a healthy dose of realism (statistics) PLUS gut is needed.

I should not say, I will let just ANY female babysit my kid since she will be safer and ignore my gut. I don't think anyone would. But, I'm also not willing to write off 49% of the population as potential predators. Dss had a wonderful male kindergarten teacher, I am glad he didn't miss that oppurtunity.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
I have to say that I am not foolish for protecting my sons from pedophiles. Do you know how to identify molesters?

Well, honestly, I can't say that I could tell identify a male pedophile or a female pedophile. But I do leave my children with people I trust. That is really the best I can do. Every time I see undercover footage of a babysitter slapping and abusing the child she is caring for, it has been female. That terrifies me. As a mama, I guess there is always the worry, but I do the best I can.


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Well, it is a reality, I agree with you there. And I'm certainly not talking about blindly sending your children off with anyone. But I think the subtle messages we send to children absolutely to have an effect. From everything I have read about molestation, perpetrators look for easier victims, children who are less likely to tell, or are scared, or have low self esteem.

I wonder what cues they are discerning in the infant set? How can they tell which infants are going to be the easier victim, which ones will be less likely to tell, which ones are scared, or have low self-esteem?

In the case of my two year old daughter, the reason that pervert preschool teacher, just graduated college in early childhood education, btw--the reason he didn't pick her, is because I didn't give him the chance. The kids who he did pick were all 2 and under. I wonder how he chose his victims? "Hmm, which of these tots in diapers has less self-esteem? Which one is less likely to rat me out to his/her parents?"

I understand the desire to find a reason a molester chooses who they do, so you can teach your kids NOT to be that reason... it's in your desire to feel some control over this hideous thing. But you may be doing something I am sure you do not intend, because you espouse ideals of non-judgment toward young men for just being male. You're judging victims of molestation as being somehow less-than, somehow having attracted abuse to themselves with weakness... . I am sure you did not intend this or fully think it through... . While it certainly cannot be overlooked that victims are often re-victimized, and there are depths to plumb as to why they are... what needs to be focused on here is avoiding a FIRST victimization.

It used to be said of rape victims that they asked for it, they dressed trampy, they went out at night: and it turns out, rapists choose their victims for all sorts of reasons: they are blonde, they are short, they are tall, they are a certain age, they look like his ex-wife, they look like the girl in high school who rebuffed him, etc.. It doesn't matter if she dresses trampy or corporate, or seems "weak," or "scared," or what he thinks her self-esteem is. What matters is HIM, and HIS problem, not her. The same holds up for molesters of children. They all have different issues, and have various m.o.'s.

Molesters ARE all opportunists; they create it, or grab it when it comes their way. Given the opportunity, they will most likely act. The preschool teacher CREATED his opportunity, and chose almost ALL of his students. Lots of children do fight off molesters or attackers, either successfully or unsuccessfully... they clearly weren't "weak," yet, they were chosen.

Please mamas, please don't make the mistake of believing that if you are raising your child to be strong of mind and heart, to tell you if anyone messes with them, to believe in themselves and their personal power, that they are immune to attack, or that they will tell you. I know of infant victims-INFANTS! I know many more who were tots when first attacked.

As for telling you, if the molester has convinced the child he will murder you, the victim's parents, and your other children if the victim tells... that threat coupled with a possibly agonizingly painful violation of their body, and heiness disfiguring of that child's ENTIRE worldview is going to be a powerful argument against telling you... it might cause amnesia... yes, it well might, and does every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It may cause such amnesia, that the victim happily gets into the same car with the same pervert "nice" uncle to go to the lake again like every summer before, even when the child gets molested there every single time. Seen it. It happens.

Let me close by saying that I have a couple of 20 yr old nephews who were wonderful babysitters; learned excellent childcare from their daddies. Young men can do it, and can certainly be worthy of trust with children. It's great for the little kiddies, too, to see examples of boy babysitters, definitely. One of them just joined the military. Fine young men. I am 100% sure that if they were involved in this very conversation that they would say: "We understand why we may be judged... it is not without cause. We cannot change history or the statistics of the past, but we're going to try to change the future." They wouldn't probably use those words, but they would say the same thing. Young men are mostly a lot more perceptive that we're maybe giving them credit for on this issue.


----------



## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

I find this thread very sad







. It seems gender bias is alive and well on mothering.com

Here's a new thread:

Should I hire a 13 year old AA child to babysit? I haven't met him / her, but I know statistically AA are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, so maybe I better not risk it. Oh, and when I was younger the kid who bullied me was AA too (and I am NOT making light of sexual abuse, just trying to point out that bias is bias).

Better not have any NA either, because tehy are more likely to have a problem with achohol. And let's rule out the poor white girls too, statistically they are more likely to be involved in "bad stuff" than middle class white girls.

Let's turn the argument around to women say... 50 - 100 years ago. A lot of men thought women couldn't make a good decision to vote. I could just see an employer.

Well, it was between a man and a women for the math teacher job, and as much as I would love to have a female role model for the girls, statistically more men are better math teachers and do better in science, and I can't risk having someone in there who can't keep high standards, so the man gets the job.

I think it's really sad that we are judging people on their sex or their race before we even meet them. And I agree about how girl babysitters can certainly be emotionally abusive, and how you need to know your sitter, not just his or her gender / race / poverty level / religion / etc.


----------



## katydid317 (Dec 18, 2006)

Quote:

I think it's really sad that we are judging people on their sex or their race before we even meet them. And I agree about how girl babysitters can certainly be emotionally abusive, and how you need to know your sitter, not just his or her gender / race / poverty level / religion / etc.
I agree completely. It's not whether the sitter is a boy or a girl, it's the age, how well you know them, etc. numerous different variables that have nothing to do with gender.

I have had a 12 year old boy babysit my son (he's almost 2 1/2 now and this was when he was around 18 months). He's 13 now and I would not hesistate to call him if I was in need of a sitter, it just normally works out that I have family to babysit for me. This boy is an awesome babysitter and even though he's young I trust him completely. He's the middle-youngest of 4 kids, his mom has run a home daycare for longer than he's been around, and so he's always had lots of experience with young children and babies. When he babysits I also know someone in his family would be at home for him to call in case he needed help and couldn't reach me. I am also friends with his mother and I know them through my church. So there are lots of reasons why I am confortable with him as a sitter. My son absolutely adores him, but also, it depends on what situation I need a sitter for. For how long, what time of day/night, etc.

If someone were to recommend a 13 year old sitter, regardless of sex, but I had never met them or their family it would definitely be a different situation, because of not knowing the person. I certainly think it's ridiculous to write someone off as a potential caregiver based on their gender.

Kate
single student mama to Owen (aged 2 1/2)


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RachelEve14* 
I find this thread very sad







. It seems gender bias is alive and well on mothering.com

Here's a new thread:

Should I hire a 13 year old AA child to babysit? I haven't met him / her, but I know statistically AA are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, so maybe I better not risk it. Oh, and when I was younger the kid who bullied me was AA too (and I am NOT making light of sexual abuse, just trying to point out that bias is bias).

Better not have any NA either, because tehy are more likely to have a problem with achohol. And let's rule out the poor white girls too, statistically they are more likely to be involved in "bad stuff" than middle class white girls.

Let's turn the argument around to women say... 50 - 100 years ago. A lot of men thought women couldn't make a good decision to vote. I could just see an employer.

Well, it was between a man and a women for the math teacher job, and as much as I would love to have a female role model for the girls, statistically more men are better math teachers and do better in science, and I can't risk having someone in there who can't keep high standards, so the man gets the job.

I think it's really sad that we are judging people on their sex or their race before we even meet them. And I agree about how girl babysitters can certainly be emotionally abusive, and how you need to know your sitter, not just his or her gender / race / poverty level / religion / etc.


Thank You!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Oy. I see the 'reverse sexism' argument has been pulled out now. I was wondering when that would become the focus.







:


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

I think there have been valid points brought up on both sides of this debate, but for me I still cannot justify judging someone based on their gender.
My experience was no where near what atrocities that some have gone through, for me it was a matter of timing...the previous weekend my parents had provided me with a book on Saying No (part of a It's Ok To Say No series) and sat me down and we had an open and honest discussion about appropriate and inappropriate touch and trusting your feelings...as in when it feels wrong it probably is and so on. My caregiver's husband, who I should never have been left alone with anyway because my mom was paying her not her husband to watch me, approached me with touch and trying to convince me to disrobe so he could play a tickle game...I knew it was wrong and firmly told him No over and over and over and basically kept my distance. It was a long hour and when my mother returned at the end of the day I told her I did not want to go there to be babysat anymore (she listened to my desire to be out, as she always did, and found me a new sitter). I wish feverently that I had told her why....but they did not fully prepare me for the mind game of "You can't tell anyone because if you do they won't believe you and they'll punish you for telling terrible lies", I don't think any parent can really prepare you for that, I did tell her a few years later what happened, but unfortunately they could not be found to prosecute or get his daughter away from him. In my entire life, that is probably my biggest regret, but at the same time I was 4...I could not possibly be expected to realize that my staying silent meant I was leaving his daughter behind to be hurt. The man who tried to molest me was balding. And for many years I was uneasy around men who were balding because of the association. Then at 16 I realized why I was so uneasy around men with this certain look (brown balding hair, tallish and slender), and realized that it was unfair to paint all balding men with that brush.
Many people have backed up their arguments by mentioning statistics...the thing about statistics is that you have to be careful about the data collection, and have to be sure that your stats are coming from reliable sources. Not to sound rude, so hard to judge typing, but I would really like to see where these numbers come from, so I can see them for myself where they come from. I am trying to find actual numbers online but not having much luck.
There is another stat, sorry I do not have a source I have tried to find one with no luck, but it seems to be a theme in every story I have ever heard regarding abusers, that says many abusers were abused as children. So if you go by that theory, that abused children tend to grow up into abusers....then if you know that someone was hurt as a child, should you leave your child in their care? If you are saying men are more likely to abuse, well by that very same theory, then you can't get a victim to watch your child either.
Also there have been many scandals of Priests victimizing young boys...are you going to prevent your sons from doing church activities because of a few evil men disguised as Priests?
My husband asked me to add this; "Let's say that 92% of molesters are white males between the ages of 23-50. That does not mean that 92% of white males between the ages of 23-50 are molesters." (note; the number he uses here does not come from an actual statistic, he just grabbed a random number. He is also quite fond of saying "37% of statistics are made up on the spot").
Just some points I wanted to make, sorry it's so long. It's just hurtful to think that my brothers, both caring responsible young men who would never ever do anything inappropriate to a child, could be unfairly judged by attitudes similar to those voiced here. It's upsetting to me to think of anyone being judged sight unseen because of their race, gender, socio-economic status. I am not talking about those moments when you meet someone, converse with them and feel uneasy but are not sure why. Of course in those moments you should trust your instincts. But to say across the board "No, never a male babysitter, not my child, no way" is just flat-out wrong in my honest opinion.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lesley&grace* 
My experience was no where near what atrocities that some have gone through, for me it was a matter of timing...the previous weekend my parents had provided me with a book on Saying No (part of a It's Ok To Say No series) and sat me down and we had an open and honest discussion about appropriate and inappropriate touch and trusting your feelings...as in when it feels wrong it probably is and so on.

Wow, that is good timing, and I'm so glad your mother listened to you. Thank goodness. Also interesting what you have to say about the "they won't believe you" game. I'm going to make sure my kiddo *knows* I will believe her. What a crap mindgame.









Quote:

Many people have backed up their arguments by mentioning statistics...the thing about statistics is that you have to be careful about the data collection, and have to be sure that your stats are coming from reliable sources. Not to sound rude, so hard to judge typing, but I would really like to see where these numbers come from,
The statistics are borne out by my personal experience, so for me I don't really care about the statistics. They are useful in an argument, but only a small part of what I base my decisions on. They simply confirm for me that my experience is consistent with a larger reality.

Quote:

My husband asked me to add this; "Let's say that 92% of molesters are white males between the ages of 23-50. That does not mean that 92% of white males between the ages of 23-50 are molesters."
I have heard that on this thread before, and IMO it doesn't matter at all. If 1 in 3 girls are molested, most by straight men, I don't care if he's assaulted 25 other people or none, statistically it doesn't matter if 92% of men are abusers or if the 30% just get around a lot.


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Lets also add you do not here about girls molesting people because stastically it happens less, we arn't told because it is not shared very often, but it does happen a lot, just like men who beat their wives, it's shared, but just a lot of women beat their DH as well, but we hardly ever hear about it.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Hmm, too much to quote and not enough time.

Regarding the "Would I let an AA person babysit?" I thought of this analogy, but it doesn't hold up. The reason there is a hesitation is because most sexual predators are men. If most sexual predators were AA, then that might be a concern, but as far as I know that is not a valid fear. I've never believed that AA are more violent than white people. More might be in prison, but that's because of our screwed up justice system. I do, however, believe that most molestors are male, so therefore I think it is a more valid concern. But my sole reason for posting this was because I had read Protecting the Gift, and he states that simply be not having men as caregivers you are ahead of the game, or something to that effect. I'm just not sure that's how I want to live my life, which is why I made the OP.

I also wanted to comment that someone linked some stats before, and one of them said that 1-3% of men are molestors. So yes, it is helpful to bear in mind that while most molestors are men, most men are not molestors. Which is why this is a hard issue.

Regarding how molestors choose victims and equating it to blaming the victim - I have thought it through quite a bit, and it has nothing to do with blaming the victim. I would never blame a child for having a more quiet personality. I would never blame a child for having a relationship with their parents that doesn't promote honesty, or whatever. None of it is ever the child's fault. But I have seen countless interviews with convicted child molestors, and every single time, they detail how carefully they choose their victims, the qualities they look for, the signs they look for. It's a reality, not something I blame the child for. And of course with very young children, babies, access is the key ingredient. If you don't discuss the realities of molestation, simply just yell about how men can't be trusted, you are turning a blind eye. Access is key, but our children get older and can't always be under our control. So yes, it's helpful to be aware of how they work, and how our children might be perceived. My mom always worried more about my little sister than she did me, simply based on our different personalities. Did that mean she thinks my sister would have been more at fault should she have been molested? Of course not, that's ridiculous. And it doesn't mean that she thinks that I was immune. It's just a reality that certain ingredients lend themselves more to being victimized than others. Nothing is guaranteed, and it is never the child's fault. As Oprah once said "I don't care if I walked in buck naked and sat on his lap, he is the adult." Pretty much sums it up for me.

And from what I understand, rape is a different issue than child molestation. Again, I am not an expert, but my understanding is that rape stems from anger, aggression and control issues, whereas child molestation a sexual deviance.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Life is a series of calculated risks. You evaluate the situation as carefully as you can and then move forward. You don't get in the elevator with the sketchy looking person but the delivery guy seems okay. You won't drive in a blizzard but if the weather report looks good you buckle up and go. And you meet the sitter and get to know him/or her VERY well before you leave them with your child.

Automatically making these choices without evaluation can leave one paralyzed with fear.









This is a calculated risk that can be calculated out by having only adult women care for my child, thus leaving me with fewer fears. There are still plenty of risks out there, but this is one that is far less likely since I made this calculated decision. It is not unevaluated, in my case. I was never sexually abused, but I know plenty of women who were--all by males. My Dd has plenty of interactions with men and boys, and the decision not to have male caretakers is something she is oblivious to, so she won't have any problems coming from having been more protected in this way.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemy2ds* 
Lets also add you do not here about girls molesting people because stastically it happens less, we arn't told because it is not shared very often, but it does happen a lot, just like men who beat their wives, it's shared, but just a lot of women beat their DH as well, but we hardly ever hear about it.

You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?

I think that's possible. I also think it's possible that it's less likely to be believed, or prosecuted, therefore affecting the stats. But even taking all this into account, I still believe that most child molestors are men, by a long shot. BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST MEN ARE CHILD MOLESTORS.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
But, I still trusted my intuition even though my head could only seem to articulate, "I don't get why this guy wants to be a preschool teacher." My intuition, which was causing my stomach to tighten, was picking up that his intentions were not good.

So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on _not wanting to judge based on gender_, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.
<<
>
>
I'm not saying "be sexist." I'm saying, sexism isn't a part of this discussion. It's intuition, and it may not always speak to you in literal language... it may be in symbols. It may use a sexist symbol to tell you: "Not good."

Right- trust your gut! Don't let yourself get caught up in "She's female, she must be a good caregiver" or "he's male, he must be a molester why else would he want to work with little kids?" What's that individual's attitude, maturity level, and what gut feeling does that person give you?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I have never said I would *exclude* a boy. I said there is an extra set of questions I ask myself about a boy, and I am therefore less comfortable with a boy in general. Individual men, who I trust *after* considering that extra set of questions, are still in.

OK, thanks for clarifying. From prior posts on this thread it sounded like you distrusted all men and would never consider any of them as caregivers for your DD.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I think that's possible. I also think it's possible that it's less likely to be believed, or prosecuted, therefore affecting the stats.

I was wondering the exact same thing. Just because 96% of perpetrators reported to law enforcement are male does NOT mean that 96% of all child molesters are male.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST MEN ARE CHILD MOLESTORS.

Neither do I!!


----------



## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?

AH no that's not what i said, i said you don't hear about it as much.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Ruthla said:


> I was wondering the exact same thing. Just because 96% of perpetrators reported to law enforcement are male does NOT mean that 96% of all child molesters are male.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think the same could be said for x amount of those abused coming forward to speak against male perpetrators.... there will be x amount of those that are dismissed or not believed.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
This is a calculated risk that can be calculated out by having only adult women care for my child, thus leaving me with fewer fears. There are still plenty of risks out there, but this is one that is far less likely since I made this calculated decision. It is not unevaluated, in my case. I was never sexually abused, but I know plenty of women who were--all by males. My Dd has plenty of interactions with men and boys, and the decision not to have male caretakers is something she is oblivious to, so she won't have any problems coming from having been more protected in this way.

Have you seen the Freakonomics discussion about the statistics of parents who won't let their children play at a homes of gun owners vs. pool owners? Statistically, more parents say NO to letting their kids play at homes of gun owners, even though many more children die every year in swimming pools than from gun accidents.

This discussion seems to be another issue of _perceived threat vs. actual threat_. If 1-3% of men are child molesters, the chances are very small of your child's male care provider being a molester _even if you chose a care provider totally randomly_. Using your "gut" as well as other tools to educate yourself about a male care provider (e.g. interviews, references, background checks) should reduce that chance considerably.

Yes, even after all of that, you are taking a calculated risk when putting your child in ANYBODY'S care. Your child might be with a caretaker, teacher, clergyperson, bus driver, etc. that is a molester... or physically abusive... emotionally abusive... a substance abuser... mentally ill... or somebody who could in many other ways be dangerous to your child. Hopefully NOT, but there is always that chance when you leave him/her with anybody but yourself.

I don't think that simply keeping your child away from all men is going to provide the protection you think you are giving. You may FEEL that way, but the statistics don't (IMO) bear out the perceived threat vs. actual threat.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
You think that children who are abused by women are less likely to report it?

Absolutely. Plus, I 've know many men who tell me they "had sex" for the first time with an older girl. They don't frame it as abuse, or report it, or even seem to have issue with it.


----------



## Sarahbunny (Jun 13, 2006)

I wouldn't let a 13 yo babysit, male or female. But, I wouldn't care if it was a male babysitter or female babysitter, as long as they were the age that I felt was appropriate and as long as I felt like I knew the sitter and/or his or her family.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Absolutely. Plus, I 've know many men who tell me they "had sex" for the first time with an older girl. They don't frame it as abuse, or report it, or even seem to have issue with it.


So... they call it "having sex" and "don't have an issue with it." That doesn't really qualify as sexual abuse in my book.
Interestingly enough, I know one man who's confided to me that he was sexually abused by his own dad, and then again by another man (not a relative), but has said that he wishes one of his female babysitters would have "molested" him. I found that to be incredibly odd coming from someone who's been abused in the past, and I'm really at a loss of what to conclude from it. Maybe he's just not threatened by women or girls?

At the present time, I don't really trust anyone except my mom or dad to babysit my daughter. No way in the world can I imagine trusting any 13 year-old, male or female, to watch her. For me, it is less about fear of potential molestation than a fear about basic safety precautions in general.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
But, I still trusted my intuition even though my head could only seem to articulate, "I don't get why this guy wants to be a preschool teacher." My intuition, which was causing my stomach to tighten, was picking up that his intentions were not good.

So, yes, don't judge based on gender, but don't turn off your intuition based on _not wanting to judge based on gender_, because that might be all your head can tell you: "It's because he's a boy/man." If your intuition says "no," don't question yourself about why it's saying no.

.....

I'm not saying "be sexist." I'm saying, sexism isn't a part of this discussion. It's intuition, and it may not always speak to you in literal language... it may be in symbols. It may use a sexist symbol to tell you: "Not good."

This situation wouldn't arise for me, because my intuition/gut about these things doesn't need a symbol. If I get a weird feeling about somebody, especially with respect to my kids, I go with it. I don't label it, or even attempt to. I don't even label the person - I just acknowledge to myself that I don't feel comfortable with them, or with having them around my kids, and that's that.

Rightly or wrongly, I trust my gut a lot more than I trust statistics or safety rules like Gavin Debecker (sp?) puts in his books.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I have read PTG and can definitely see both sides of the issue.

This summer we advertised for a nanny position through the local university. We had over 70 resumes sent to us and, sadly, part of our selection process was the decision to only consider female applicants. DH and I really struggled with this and did feel very sad and guilty. DD even asked "why are they all just girls?" regarding our interviews. The bottom line was statistical probabilities and why take the chance when we really didn't need to.









OTOH, if there was a male I already personally already knew, liked and trusted that was available to babysit or nanny, I would not hesitate to hire that person. We have some good friends who have a 12 yo ds and I am already looking forward to him babysitting in a couple years.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
So... they call it "having sex" and "don't have an issue with it." That doesn't really qualify as sexual abuse in my book. .

Really? Even if the child involved was 7? To me, a 7 year old boy "having sex" with a teen girl is abuse, but I've met many men who felt like it was just their first time "having sex," so it isn't reported or included in any statistics.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

So... they call it "having sex" and "don't have an issue with it." That doesn't really qualify as sexual abuse in my book.
And what if we were talking about a 13yo girl and a 20 year old man? If we removed all these kinds of stats from the equation, the number of children sexually abused drops dramatically. No way is it fair to call it abuse when it's a girl but sex when it's a boy. Talk about sexism.

They "don't have an issue with it" that they know of. They are children. They have no idea of the impact these things have on them. That's why it is the responsibility of the adult to act in an appropriate way - we have an understanding about how these things can mess you up, without even realizing it.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

I think it is also interesting to note that many people have expressed that they would worry about their dd's being molested by men, but have no fear of their ds's being molested by women. Someone posted that their exdh lost his virginity at 11 to his 17 year old babysitter...BUT HE DID NOT SEE IT AS ABUSE. So that may also be where some of the unreported attacks by women go as well...there may have been a more participatory part played on behalf of the boy. And I have heard a number of times of very young girls having been victimized by men where the girl felt she was "in love" and participated in the activities, but the offender (I do see him as an offender, no grown man should see an 11 year old as a potential date) is prosecuted for statutory rape. How many young women in the same age range have taken the innocence of very young boys but gotten away with it because it's not seen as abuse.
ETA: And for the record, I do see it as abuse when an older female in a position of authority, like a babysitter, uses a young male for sexual pleasure. A young boy does not have the ability to clearly understand that what is happening is wrong, even if he does participate, anymore than a young female really understands what real love is when she is with an much older man. I understand that the men in these cases as adults do not feel that anything was wrong with what happened, but I think that it's an attitude that needs to change.
As I am writing this I am seeing posts along the same line, so I'll stop on that line.
There were other points I wanted to mention, but I've had a very long day and have forgotten them. If I think of them before anyone else brings it up...I'll be back.


----------



## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

I had a bf who also "lost his virginity" at 12yr old by his babysitter. He didn't see it as abuse. I wonder if that's truly what he believed, though.

No, I would not leave my children with a male caregiver. I would not leave them with ANY male alone. Not an uncle, a teacher, etc. It is sad, but unfortunately, many, many girls are abused/molested and never tell.

Please, protect your children.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
So... they call it "having sex" and "don't have an issue with it." That doesn't really qualify as sexual abuse in my book.

It is in mine.

I was date raped.

I never said no. I was petrified and could come up with no words.

It took me nearly 8 years to realize that I was raped. I was 19. He was 26 or so. He used me to jack off. He took advantage of me.

He knew I was a virgin. I froze as soon as I realized what was going on and started trembling. He did not stop.

For a long time, I considered that my first sexual experience because it make me feel empowered.....like I choose it to happen. I did not want to feel like a victim or powerless.







But it wsn't my first time......it was rape.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
It is in mine.

I was date raped.

I never said no. I was petrified and could come up with no words.

It took me nearly 8 years to realize that I was raped. I was 19. He was 26 or so. He used me to jack off. He took advantage of me.

He knew I was a virgin. I froze as soon as I realized what was going on and started trembling. He did not stop.

For a long time, I considered that my first sexual experience because it make me feel empowered.....like I choose it to happen. I did not want to feel like a victim or powerless.







But it wsn't my first time......it was rape.


Yes, and you DID have ISSUES with it.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

For the record, since everyone is reading a whole lot more into what I wrote than is actually there....

I was responding to the idea of what you would call having sex for the first time and any negative emotional/psychological issues with it. First of all, when people talk about having sex for the first time, they're referring to intercourse - at least, that's what I was referring to here. I do happen to be of the opinion that is *is* possible for a minor (in legal terms, under 18) to have consensual sex and not have issues with it. There's certainly a grey area, but I do think it's possible IN SOME CASES NOT ALL, PEOPLE. Nope, I'm not giving age ranges - but I'm sure not intending to say that any 7 year-olds would consent to sex.

I'm well aware that date-rape exists, and the confusing feelings that can result from that.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
Yes, and you DID have ISSUES with it.

Not until I watched Oprah and they were talking about sexual abuse.

Then it hit me like a TON of bricks and I started bawling.

8 YEARS after it had occurred. After I had bragged it up. Talked about it with girlfriends.....all in a positive spin way because I was so self conscious about how I "performed"









I put a happy face on and convinced MYSELF even. I wanted to feel as though I had a choice, not bad about not sayin no with words.

I wanted to be cool....not the girl who was raped.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

***


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
Not until I watched Oprah and they were talking about sexual abuse.

Then it hit me like a TON of bricks and I started bawling.

8 YEARS after it had occurred. After I had bragged it up. Talked about it with girlfriends.....all in a positive spin way because I was so self conscious about how I "performed"









I put a happy face on and convinced MYSELF even. I wanted to feel as though I had a choice, not bad about not sayin no with words.

I wanted to be cool....not the girl who was raped.










Oprah is good for some things. I'm glad you were able to come to terms with it, at least on some level.

The vibe I got from your post, referring to you feeling petrified/frozen at the time, would seem to indicate otherwise. Please don't blame yourself for not saying no. I know it's hard not to feel like you had responsibility in it (and I speak from personal experience).


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
Oprah is good for some things. I'm glad you were able to come to terms with it, at least on some level.

The vibe I got from your post, referring to you feeling petrified/frozen at the time, would seem to indicate otherwise. Please don't blame yourself for not saying no. I know it's hard not to feel like you had responsibility in it (and I speak from personal experience).

See....that is where the confusion began. I was planning on waiting until marriage. We were messing around (I had a skirt on) then I suddenly did not know what was going on. He was holding my hands and action was still happening below.....with out getting too graphic. That is when I paniced internally but rationalized that it was too late to say no because I was no longer a virgin







If that makes sense.....

So instead I choked it up to my "first time" and giggled with girlfriends about how I got some and he didn't last long. I actually comvinced myself that it was true.

I heard he told all of our mutual friends how hot I was but was such a lousy lay. Instead of dealing with it head on and sorting out my true feelings about what happened, I had sex with 6 more partners, drank and partied, made out with girls.....all in the fog of being what I somehow convinced myself was "normal" Plus to prove to myself I wasn't a lousy lay







:

It wasn't until I feel in love I started questioning my behavior. It WAS NOT me!!! I was acting out. So uncharacteristic of any of my beliefs.







But I still didn't really get why I was doing it.

When I saw Oprah, she talked about being permiscious (sp?) as a result of sexual abuse and the lighbilb went on! It wasn't ME......it was symptoms of what had happened to me coming out through my behaviors.

I believe this is how many deal with sexual abuse and rape. Both men and women.

They come to terms with the situation by spinning how they view it. It puts then in a position of power as oppossed to being out of control of the situation.








I am sorry you experiened anything similar


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

AngelBee.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanks thismama


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm glad to see you by the way.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

This is very hard to talk about. Hugs to you too, AngelBee.

You touched on something I've been thinking about this afternoon. I don't think it's any easier for a girl to be viewed as a victim than it is for a boy. Girls can and will rationalize abuse so they don't have to appear to be weak.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







I'm glad to see you by the way.

You too







It has been a while....


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
This is very hard to talk about. Hugs to you too, AngelBee.

You touched on something I've been thinking about this afternoon. I don't think it's any easier for a girl to be viewed as a victim than it is for a boy. Girls can and will rationalize abuse so they don't have to appear to be weak.

Thank you









I totally agree.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

To the OP, yes, I would & I have. But, every situation & every person is different. Follow your instincts and your heart.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RachelEve14* 
I find this thread very sad







. It seems gender bias is alive and well on mothering.com

Here's a new thread:

Should I hire a 13 year old AA child to babysit? I haven't met him / her, but I know statistically AA are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, so maybe I better not risk it....Better not have any NA either, because tehy are more likely to have a problem with achohol. And let's rule out the poor white girls too, statistically they are more likely to be involved in "bad stuff" than middle class white girls....Well, it was between a man and a women for the math teacher job, and as much as I would love to have a female role model for the girls, statistically more men are better math teachers and do better in science, and I can't risk having someone in there who can't keep high standards, so the man gets the job.

Yes, apparently gender discrimination is just fine if the person you're discriminating against is male...

And to those who would never allow a man to care for the children in their lives, what if your son is interested in doing childcare? Do you tell them they can't be/c statistically they are more apt to abuse children then their sisters are? What happens when your sons have children of their own? Will you fear for your grandchildren? Of course not. Then "statistics" will be thrown out the window.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
Yes, apparently gender discrimination is just fine if the person you're discriminating against is male...









<-- me trying to kill the whole screwed up concept of 'reverse discrimination.' No matter how many times you hit that bloody thing, it's eye is all popped out and everything, but it lives on.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

I never used the word "reverse" thismama. I used the word "gender." Not hiring a babysitter simply because he is male (not because he's immature, not CPR certified, or whatever) is discrimination based on gender and gender alone. There's no "reverse."


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

In this culture men are granted power because of gender discrimination. Sexism targets women. Calling it up, whether you use the word 'sexism' or the phrase 'gender discrimination' is the same old reverse discrimination argument.


----------



## DoctorGirlfriend (Dec 4, 2006)

thismama, I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. There's no such thing as discrimination against men?


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

So, men and boys can NEVER be discriminated against based on their gender, because we live in a patriarchial society?
Hogwash. Clearly there are people who will readily discriminate against men/boys purely because they are men/boys, and for no other reason specific to the individual in question.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Where's our male MDC nanny when you need him?????







Hello???


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm saying it's not the same thing. And it's interesting how everyone stands up to yell about reverse discrimination, when the stakes are higher for my girl child than they are for the male child/adult in the situation.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
So, men and boys can NEVER be discriminated against based on their gender, because we live in a patriarchial society?
Hogwash. Clearly there are people who will readily discriminate against men/boys purely because they are men/boys, and for no other reason specific to the individual in question.

This thread is not about disciminating against males simply because they are male and we don't like men. It's about the simple fact that the vast majority of sexual crimes against children are commited by men, and as parents, how we handle that. Trying to assert that this is the same as discrimination against minorities just doesn't make any sense. To say you wouldn't hire an AA babysitter is discrimination, because there is no evidence that AA people are any more likely to sexually molest your child than a white person. But there certainly is indisputable evidence that a male is more likely than a woman to sexually molest your child.

It's not the same thing at all.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
the stakes are higher for my girl child than they are for the male child/adult in the situation.

If my son were discriminated against because of the extremely remote possibility he might possibly maybe be an abuser, even though he had no history of abuse, I'd say the stakes were stacked pretty high against him. Just the automatic assumption he might sexually abuse someone just plain SUCKS. And its wrong.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
If my son were discriminated against because of the extremely remote possibility he might possibly maybe be an abuser, even though he had no history of abuse, I'd say the stakes were stacked pretty high against him. Just the automatic assumption he might sexually abuse someone just plain SUCKS. And its wrong.









:


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I don't think that simply keeping your child away from all men is going to provide the protection you think you are giving. You may FEEL that way, but the statistics don't (IMO) bear out the perceived threat vs. actual threat.

You seem to think that some of us are trying to protect our children from all risks and that we're somehow unaware that this is an impossible goal. That's not the point I'm making.

I don't think anyone is saying that they're keeping their child completely away from men, but, most children who are molested, are left alone with a male they know and molested by him. If you don't leave your child alone with men and boys, there are fewer opportunities and thus a reduced risk of that particular tragedy. I am perfectly aware that this choice doesn't rule out death by drowning, nor gun shot, nor choking on a peanut, nor even the possibility of sexual molestation. I can't rule out dying in a car accident, but I can reduce her risks by the kind of car I drive, the manner in which I drive, and the carseat she uses. There are no guarantees, of course. Everyone is aware of that.

I've read _Freakonomics_ and not only took 4 years of statistics, but have taught it, as well as Research Methods methods for the behavioral sciences. I'm still not sure why you brought up that particular example of the pool versus guns, because I actually attempt to protect my Dd from those risks, as well, and I'm teaching her to look both ways, and she's not allowed to play with razors and matches. I mean, really, she's 5. My job is to protect her and teach her how to protect herself when she's ready. She's not ready to protect herself from molestation, and while there's only a small probability that this would occur, it's something that is even smaller given the people who care for her. If her chance was 1 in 100 for molestation, now it is much closer to 0, and that's a good thing.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *hhurd*
If my son were discriminated against because of the extremely remote possibility he might possibly maybe be an abuser, even though he had no history of abuse, I'd say the stakes were stacked pretty high against him. Just the automatic assumption he might sexually abuse someone just plain SUCKS. And its wrong
It's even more wrong that so many of my friends have been sexually abused, and that it is such a high risk for my daughter. You wanna talk about wrong? That is some serious wrong right there. I hope that it changes so our children won't have to have these kinds of discussions about their own children.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
...This discussion seems to be another issue of _perceived threat vs. actual threat_. If 1-3% of men are child molesters, the chances are very small of your child's male care provider being a molester _even if you chose a care provider totally randomly_. Using your "gut" as well as other tools to educate yourself about a male care provider (e.g. interviews, references, background checks) should reduce that chance considerably.

Actually, the more I think about this, the more I realize that the threat is even greater than I realized. You are saying that if I leave my child with a man, there is at least a 1 in 100 chance that I am leaving her with a molestor? Possibly a 1 in 50 chance! Maybe even a 1 in 33 chance?!!! Sheesh! That is actually a higher risk than I realized! I mean, I honestly don't believe that you can rule out a person based on interviews and references. And background checks are only good for the very few who have been caught and convicted. Yeah, I feel even more vindicated if that 1-3% stat is correct.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Chinakat....where did you get your statistic? I mentioned this to my husband and he said it seemed high, which I am inclined to agree. Just wondering so I can see the source, thanks!

At any rate....I am very curious to know how many people here on this thread know of actual cases where a child has been molested by a teenaged boy babysitter? I know there is a case of a bad vibe that turned out to be correct with a daycare teacher...and in my case of a caregiver's husband, but in both cases we are dealing with adult predators. The only time I have ever heard of a case where a teenaged boy molested a young child, the molester was not a babysitter but the son of an in home childcare provider. In this case the teen had some serious developmental disabilities and had been abused as a child...with a tainted sense of right and wrong he really did not know that what he did was inappropriate. Steps were taken to make sure he never got another opportunity and lots of counselling for the victim (please note: I am not saying that excuses what happened, the child should never have been alone with the teen, and the mother/childcare provider knew that the teen should not be alone with the child, although not for the reasons that occured...my point is that it's a special circumstance not likely to come up frequently). Most cases I have heard of where children were victimized it was by an adult male who was a trusted member of the family's inner circle (ie a parent, step parent, grandparent, uncle, mother's new boyfriend, friend of the family, youth group leader, etc). Basically I am wondering if there are stories out there where teenaged males have been predators while babysitting.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I have a good friend who was molested by her brother when he was a teenager. And a poster on this thread was molested by a male babysitter.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I have a good friend who was molested by her brother when he was a teenager. And a poster on this thread was molested by a male babysitter.

Again...you have a family member in that case. I am not saying that there have never been teen molesters, because I have an aunt who was frequently victimized by her older brother when he was a teen. I am talking non-family members who were teen babysitters, male, who abused.

I do not recall someone who posted who was molested by a male teen babysitter, but I will look again through the posts.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Dude, IMO if a teenage boy can molest his sister, I'm not trusting him with babysitting my kid. It's a stone's throw, kwim?







:


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Dude, IMO if a teenage boy can molest his sister, I'm not trusting him with babysitting my kid. It's a stone's throw, kwim?







:

Depends on the guy, I think (not that I'd let someone watch my kids if I knew he'd molested _anybody_). I've noticed over the years that there seem to be predators who specialize in family members, and others who don't.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Depends on the guy, I think *(not that I'd let someone watch my kids if I knew he'd molested anybody).* I've noticed over the years that there seem to be predators who specialize in family members, and others who don't.

The bolded part is what I'm getting at.


----------



## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

boy or girl dont matter the age dont really matter cause it goes by each person on their own so i say it this is the way i will put it your instinct will tell you from there have him come over for a few hours and you stand back let him do the babysitting with you in the house say something like you have some work to do but he will be looking after the kids if you were not there you will see very fast how he would be like my neice is 11 1/2 and on the weekend she was looking after my dd 4 and my ds 3m while we were there in the house but she was the one taking care of them i let her get some on hands learning she has also chose to take a babysitting course that might be a good think to look for in a babysitter


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

I give up. Obviously there is no argument on this earth that is going show you that dismissing a male sitter sight-unseen is discriminatory (and you can slap any freakin label on it that you want, I don't care...it's discriminatory). And obviously if you KNOW someone has molested a family member you should not let them anywhere near your kid.
Most of my bad experiences with sitters were with females...verbal and sometimes physical abuse, out and out neglect of my basic needs, etc etc. With the exception of my caregiver's husband, my experiences with male baby sitters were postive (my cousin would babysit me frequently when he was a teen, and he had this long hair that he would let me brush and do up with bows...none of my teen girl sitters ever let me play beauty shop...or would even really play with me at all, I would play on my own or watch TV that they chose).
I am not advocating for hiring any baby sitter unless you expressly trust them, but to dismiss without even meeting them because they are male is disgusting. Say whatever you want about reducing risk...you could be missing out on the greatest experience your children could ever have by doing this.
It saddens me to my core that there are people out there that have been abused. There is never enough punishment for abusers, and certainly in cases where the victim is too afraid to come forward there is no consequence for the abusers actions. I hate that it exists in our world.
BUT it sickens me to think that my son may one day suffer for the actions of those beasts simply because he is the same gender. It makes me want to vomit that my brothers who do babysit may have their motives questioned because they are male. My son and my brothers, and many many other men, do not deserve to be painted with that brush.
I am unsubbing because this thread is starting to cause me some serious stress, which I just don't need right now. Everyone here has a very strong hold on their opinion, and I do recommend that you do whatever you feel is necessary to protect your children, even if I don't agree with each of you on every point.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

the thing is- if you say it is about instinct means that all of us who have been molested must have not had good instinct? Or parents w/o good instinct.
Not always true.
You are blaming the victim by saying this.

You need to avoid all possible access to your children by predators. And talk to your kids about it. My boy babysitter always looked at porno mags of my dads w/ my lil bro- who was about 9.

He also "borrowed" my parents van before he had his liscense and drove us around the bad side of town with his friends listening to rap music.
He did not have the judgement that he should have and my parents were not as intune to what was actually going on. They were busy with investment clubs, amity balls, church functions- you name it.
Seriously. Not a good idea.
He was decently nice to me and we would always watch Saturday NIght Live together. I still know him today. But I know for sure he would not let a 15 year old boy watch his kids.

I also know that during this time they did things like set things on fire- with hairspray etc.
I remember threatening to call the cops as this kid was at my house scaring me( a neighborhood friend of his)
I do not remember all the details.... but I had the phone in hand. I was 10.
I recall him telling me to look up ho in the dictionary- then when i couldn't find it prostitute.
Thats what he had my brother calling me.
I also got a severe burn on my thumb when he was watching us one summer. I was making myself mac and cheese and poured the boiling water on my hand. It was really awful and I went to a neighbor for help.
So even if your kids aren't going to be molested..... well.. I just don't see a girl doing the above things.,... much more likely for a guy.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Let me just list my molesters.....an ex-stepfather, 2 different male babysitters (both adults I think), a father of a friend of mine and two male cousins (teenagers). That is just the ones I remember. As I said before I had serious lack of parental supervision and security in my life and I do believe these were factors.

From what I understand my brother was molested by three female babysitters when he was a child so I understand that side of the issue.

FWIW, no one except family(male and female) have watched my boys. That is my level of comfort and I don't see it changing because each of my children have vulnerabilites that molester may pick up on. My oldest is sensative, eager to please and friendly. My middle son has Aspergers and doesn't really understand the dangers of life. My youngest is very verbal but vulnerable as a toddler not yet taught about bad touches. Anyway I have to make choices based on my personal expieriences and how I feel I can protect my children.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emilie* 
the thing is- if you say it is about instinct means that all of us who have been molested must have not had good instinct? Or parents w/o good instinct.
Not always true.
You are blaming the victim by saying this.

A great deal of the time, people don't trust their instincts. It has nothing to do with blaming the victim. For one thing, I've seen _many_ children being forced to kiss adults that they don't want to kiss...that's blurring instincts _and_ telling them they have no control over their own bodies and affections. We, as a society, _teach_ people to disregard their instincts about people. We teach that you have to have a "reason" for not liking someone or not trusthing someone or whatever.

If a woman feels uneasy about letting her child stay with someone, but ignores it because it's "good old Uncle Joe" or her husband's best buddy from college, and the child is molested, then yes - she made a big mistake. That's not blaming the victim, because it's still "Uncle Joe" who committed the crime aginst the child, and because it wasn't the mother who was molested, in any case. I'm not even blaming the mom, because we're _taught_ to operate this way.

Quote:

You need to avoid all possible access to your children by predators.
That means leaving your chlidren with _nobody_ but yourself. The only person that I can be _absolutely_ sure won't molest my kids is me. I know that dh won't, that my mom won't, that my stepdad won't - but I could be wrong. It _all_ comes down to who we trust, and who we don't, whether we use statistics to help us decide or not.

I can't avoid "all possible access" to my children by predators. It's not possible. All I can do is be as cautious as I can, trust my gut, and cross my fingers that nothing ever blows up in my face to hurt my kids.

Quote:

He was decently nice to me and we would always watch Saturday NIght Live together. I still know him today. But I know for sure he would not let a 15 year old boy watch his kids.

I also know that during this time they did things like set things on fire- with hairspray etc.
I remember threatening to call the cops as this kid was at my house scaring me( a neighborhood friend of his)
I do not remember all the details.... but I had the phone in hand. I was 10.
I recall him telling me to look up ho in the dictionary- then when i couldn't find it prostitute.
Thats what he had my brother calling me.
I also got a severe burn on my thumb when he was watching us one summer. I was making myself mac and cheese and poured the boiling water on my hand. It was really awful and I went to a neighbor for help.
So even if your kids aren't going to be molested..... well.. I just don't see a girl doing the above things.,... much more likely for a guy.
My female babysitter's best friend, also female, used to call me and my sister perverts. A female friend of mine used to take a bottle of booze with her when she went to babysit. Another female friend invited me along, and when I showed up, she was sitting on the couch watching tv, while the baby screamed in his crib in the other room - she didn't want to miss her favourite show.

I'm also pretty sure I'd notice if one of my kids suddenly started using the term "ho" in reference to his sibling, and want to know where it came from. The fact that you had a juvenile delinquent for a babysitter, and your parents weren't paying attention, doesn't make girls a better choice.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

True. I just remembered when I was very small my neighbor girl and her boyfriend would always make out in front of me- like big time. Totally inappropriate. I spent alot of time with babysitters tho.
Hmmm.... Maybe I am sitting on the fence of- hey- why do we need babysitters anyway!!!
I dont know. I am thinking of my experiences. I would not leave my child with a boy most likely. I have a neighbor boy and hey- maybe I would. By the time he is old enough to babysit I will have known him and his family 6 years and my kids will be 8 and 6. Who knows. I guess we all have to work this out for ourselves.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

It's always easier to attribute the crime to some unfortunate trait of the victim. That way you feel like you have more control. You know:

*molestors go after vulnerable kids, but I am AP and I know my kids are confident and secure therefore they are safe.

*homebirth or UC only goes wrong if you don't trust your instincts, but I trust my instincts therefore nothing can go wrong in my birth.

*children with disabilities only come to women who use drugs/don't eat right during pregnancy or who don't do things right when the kid is born. I am doing things right therefore my child will not be disabled.

*women who get raped have low self-esteem or dress badly or drink or go to bad neighborhoods and I don't have those problems so I'll be OK.

etc, etc, etc. Always easier than looking at those cold, hard facts that leave you feeling awfully vulnerable.

As for the crap about how instinct failed those who were abused...I'll tell you what mine said as I was being victimized and the moments leading up to it:

"Help! God please! I have to get away! What's happening? Why? This is bad. This is bad. This is bad."

But where is a KID going to go and what are they going to do? Sure you hear stories sometimes of some super lucky super resorceful kid who manages to kick a kidnapper in the nads and run away. Would they do it to a person their parents said is a nice friend helping out? A teacher? Their stepdad? And what would happen to them if they did?

Yeah, always easier to pretend the ones who get hurt are defective than it is to get slapped across the face with the cold, hard knowledge that the ones you trust are the ones most likely to dish out the ultimate betrayals.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
It's always easier to attribute the crime to some unfortunate trait of the victim. That way you feel like you have more control. You know:

*molestors go after vulnerable kids, but I am AP and I know my kids are confident and secure therefore they are safe.

*homebirth or UC only goes wrong if you don't trust your instincts, but I trust my instincts therefore nothing can go wrong in my birth.

*children with disabilities only come to women who use drugs/don't eat right during pregnancy or who don't do things right when the kid is born. I am doing things right therefore my child will not be disabled.

*women who get raped have low self-esteem or dress badly or drink or go to bad neighborhoods and I don't have those problems so I'll be OK.

etc, etc, etc. Always easier than looking at those cold, hard facts that leave you feeling awfully vulnerable.

As for the crap about how instinct failed those who were abused...I'll tell you what mine said as I was being victimized and the moments leading up to it:

"Help! God please! I have to get away! What's happening? Why? This is bad. This is bad. This is bad."

But where is a KID going to go and what are they going to do? Sure you hear stories sometimes of some super lucky super resorceful kid who manages to kick a kidnapper in the nads and run away. Would they do it to a person their parents said is a nice friend helping out? A teacher? Their stepdad? And what would happen to them if they did?

Yeah, always easier to pretend the ones who get hurt are defective than it is to get slapped across the face with the cold, hard knowledge that the ones you trust are the ones most likely to dish out the ultimate betrayals.

Who here on this thread has said any of these things? "Defective?" Who here has called anyone defective? I think pretty much everyone here has said over and over there is no way to protect your children 100%, but that we're all just doing the best we can with the information we have. I certainly don't feel the way you are describing in this post, and I didn't get that sense from anyone else either.

I'm so sorry for the pain this thread is causing you. I certainly didn't start it to hurt anyone.


----------



## Marci Mascarena (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, I have read in a parenting book that its not a good idea.
I have a 13 year old son who does baby sit for me because when he turned old enough to go through the SafeSitters program and become a certified Safe Sitter at the local hospital on his own, he approached me to baby sit his brother who is 7 yrs younger. At that point it was perfect for us as a family because the older son had definitely gotten too old to BE baby sat by a teenage girl and he took the required steps to become certified so that he would be able to preform full CPR and first aid etc.
He also informed me that he would not care to babysit children other than his brother.
Believe me I know my 13 year old and a lot of his buddies and there are many wonderful kids, but you do not know anything about what makes these boys tick. At 13 that can be a very scary thing and I think that you as an adult should be very careful before you put the 13 year old in a situation he was not prepared to handle. You should research SafeSitters International and get refferals. I would only use a sitter who was certified and know that 13 yr olds may have an interest in extra money, but if you are not familiar with him, you don't really know what he will do in many situations.


----------



## Marci Mascarena (Jan 16, 2007)

Whoever must have said something about not hiring a babysitter because they are male.
I didn't read it, so I don't know how discriminatory it was. I am adding this on and didn't want to come right out and mention it at first, but I have read as much in many books. The point is I don't think the experts advise to really hire a male babysitter that age unless you know them to their core. Watching them a few times then leaving a 5 year old boy with them would be like a game of chance with YOUR CHILD. Hormones are a real thing and are you up on everything that is going on out there with 13, 14, and 15 yr olds? Especially one who has just entered into the world of public school, for whatever reason? I see that world every day due to the ages of my kiddos and please don't think you should make this call just to not discriminate. You can do that with every fiber of your body out there in the world, and still make these tough calls to keep your familia safe. And that's why I put that in there before as a quiet little "heads up" There is not one 13 or 14 year old boy I know who would babysit for money. They usually pick hustling and active things like washin cars, raking something, carrying something, pets, etc. Just a comment, believe me, my home is open to all kinds of kids, whether they're male, female, pierced, emo, whatever, that's what happens when you have teenagers, but hiring them to babysit goes beyond not descriminating.
Marci


----------



## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I was asking around our hs group for recommendations for older teenagers who may be interested in babysitting. I heard back from a mom who used to hs her son, but he is in school now. He is 13, and has expressed an interest in babysitting. And, they live only a few blocks away. I have never met them though.

Having two sons I feel bad about this, but I am hesitant about the idea of leaving them with a male babysitter. Plus, I'm not sure if 13 is old enough to be watching a 5yo and a 2.5yo.

I don't think I'm going to do it, but I thought I would ask here to see what your thoughts were on it.

The ONLY interesting and fun babysitter my brother and I had when we were growing up was a high-school aged boy -- not sure what grade he was in, exactly, but probably 15 or 16 years old.

It is _horrible_ that in the first 20 posts people here have spewed the sort of sexist bullshit that, if reworded such that it applied to women, would be brought down by a chorus of angry responses. I can only hope that the ensuing pages of this thread do so (I was too angry to read through before posting).

If you steroetype boys in this manner, how can you ever expect anyone to treat your own sons with the respect they deserve?

Be concerned about the age of the caregiver: 13 is pretty young, but not a disqualifier, depending on the length of time they'd be sitting and the time of day. Be concerned about the particular temperament of the potential sitter and how it fits with your particular kids.

Discard sexism in all its forms. You will make better decisions as a result.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Confessing that I haven't read the whole thread, just the first few pages...

Depending on the boy in question, of course, I think I would allow it, especially as a sitter for boys or infant girls. I would probably not have a male sitter for girls past a certain age, but not because of sexual abuse concerns. Honestly, and with the acknowledgement that being picky about child care is a luxury for some, I think that if you know the person so little that you have doubts about his/her being an abuser, you really shouldn't even be considering using him/her as a baby-sitter, regardless of gender. I would ensure that I knew my sitters well as individuals, not rely on actuarial probabilities.


----------



## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

The argument not to feel bad about the decision to use or not use a male babysitter because folks have read it in parenting books sort of makes me laugh. As a community hasn't MDC sort of rejected much parenting advice in books? I mean Ferber, the Pearls, Babywise, etc. etc. etc. are all books???

Not saying that people can't treat others however they see fit, but the "well I did read it in a book" defense that keeps popping-in seems sort of misplaced on MDC.

As an aside - I doubt I will let my boys babysit when they are older. I am too afraid that this perception that boys are predators would lead to a false accusation and ruin their lives. I have a neighbor who drinks a BUNCH and strikes me as a borderline abusive parent to her two girls - she has told me a bunch of times how she would never ever leave them with a boy babysitter. One day she calls up and asks me to watch them and I said I was going out and she asked if my husband would and I said no - in the end I don't trust her either. I never let my husband walk or drive any children home without me because I think that the viewpoint so delightfully expressed on this thread places him at risk if ever left alone with a child and that might be one of the reasons we have so few male teachers...

BJ
Barney, Ben & soon to be #3!!!


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys* 
Not saying that people can't treat others however they see fit, but the "well I did read it in a book" defense that keeps popping-in seems sort of misplaced on MDC.









: There are arguments on both sides here, although I'm all in favor of good babysitters rather than merely female ones, but I am sick to death of reading "I read in Gavin DeBaeker's _Protecting the Gift_ that...."

Why is this man's book taken as gospel?


----------



## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I had an additional thought --- thismama mentioned that the most important thing should be protecting our children not how babysitters are perceived and I think this is true for boys & girls (afterall, boys can be sexually victimized by men & women as well). As such, I do think whether one is comfortable leaving our children with a babysitter is not a question to be taken lightly. I guess it is the tone taken about the motives & likely behavior of boys is what makes me bristle. I mean, I would never leave an infant with anyone except my mother, sil, dh, brother or closest friend...to be honest the Louise Woodward?Woodard trial where she shook a baby to death always comes to mind, but I would never say it is because so many girls snap as caregivers or rack it up to some sort of stereotype of emotionally out-of-control females...I just don't use sitters when I am not home because I lose control of what is happening to my children. This is true whether they are left with a man or with a woman who might physically harm or even kill them, ykwim?

BJ
Barney, Ben & soon to be #3!!!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed* 







: There are arguments on both sides here, although I'm all in favor of good babysitters rather than merely female ones, but I am sick to death of reading "I read in Gavin DeBaeker's _Protecting the Gift_ that...."

Why is this man's book taken as gospel?

Well, I haven't read it, but I've noticed a lot of references to it also. Sounds like perhaps this book validates some mamas' instincts about protecting our children. And those instincts get trampled in the culture, even here on MDC they are minimized and criticized.

I just remembered this morning as a result of this thread that when I was about 9 there was a teenage boy/man in my neighbhourhood (he was 17 or 18) who used to invite me and this other girl to his house... she was maybe 12. I used to play downstairs while he took her upstairs, and turned out he was showing her porn and molesting her.







I completely forgot all about that. His parents had a meeting with her parents and my parents, it was a big scandal. How did I forget that?

Anyway, IME it's everywhere. So I avoid it.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lesley&grace* 
Chinakat....where did you get your statistic? I mentioned this to my husband and he said it seemed high, which I am inclined to agree. Just wondering so I can see the source, thanks!

I actually got it from somebody that posted earlier in the thread... I think oceanbaby (?) referred to it a few pages back?


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB* 
If you steroetype boys in this manner, how can you ever expect anyone to treat your own sons with the respect they deserve?

I asked a similar question a few pages back, and I'm eager to see if you get an answer, 'cause I sure didn't.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
I asked a similar question a few pages back, and I'm eager to see if you get an answer, 'cause I sure didn't.

I gave a pretty well thought out, involved answer about how I would expect my boys to be treated.







Nobody responded, perhaps you missed it, but it's there, a few pages back.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
I actually got it from somebody that posted earlier in the thread... I think oceanbaby (?) referred to it a few pages back?

Somewhere on this thread, in the middle I think, someone posted a link to a bunch of stats, and I was referring to that.


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys* 
I had an additional thought --- thismama mentioned that the most important thing should be protecting our children not how babysitters are perceived and I think this is true for boys & girls (afterall, boys can be sexually victimized by men & women as well). As such, I do think whether one is comfortable leaving our children with a babysitter is not a question to be taken lightly. I guess it is the tone taken about the motives & likely behavior of boys is what makes me bristle. I mean, I would never leave an infant with anyone except my mother, sil, dh, brother or closest friend...to be honest the Louise Woodward?Woodard trial where she shook a baby to death always comes to mind, but I would never say it is because so many girls snap as caregivers or rack it up to some sort of stereotype of emotionally out-of-control females...I just don't use sitters when I am not home because I lose control of what is happening to my children. This is true whether they are left with a man or with a woman who might physically harm or even kill them, ykwim?

BJ
Barney, Ben & soon to be #3!!!

This really resonates with me. I started this thread because I had concerns about hiring a male babysitter, hiring a 13 yo babysitter, but I have to admit that I've never hired a female baby sitter either. I guess I'm just not ready to trust anyone that I don't know really well with my kids.

Even having someone work as a mother's helper first doesn't ease my worries. My SIL has a nanny for her dd, and from everything I know she is a lovely, caring woman. I have met her several times and I've never gotten a bad vibe from her. One day, I stopped by my inlaw's house during the day to pick something up. I came inside, and my neice was sleeping in her highchair. As soon as the nanny saw me, she ran over and got her out of the highchair and put her into bed. Now, I don't care that my neice was asleep in the highchair, kids fall asleep in weird places. But the fact that she would do something when no one was around but then hurry up and change it when someone appeared unexpectedly kind of freaked me out. Not about her, but about being able to trust a babysitter in general.


----------



## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

It is the absolutes here in this thread I really don't understand. That some would never leave their children alone with a teenage boy astounds me. Under this type of thinking, I shouldn't be leaving my 3yo dd alone with her older brothers (and dd is not biologically related to them). Under this type of thinking, my dd is automatically presumed not safe with my sons, nor with my sons friends, many of whom I've known since they were babies and some of whom babysit now. This is because of statistics and things that have been read in this book that keeps coming up, and has nothing to do with personal contact/knowledge/relationships with these boys in question. I know many teenage boys and there is only 1 that I would not be comfortable leaving alone with my younger children, and this is based on experience with him and gut feelings, nothing more.

I wonder how some posters here will feel when their children are teenagers, and if they have girls, what will happen when they have male friends. Will these kids need to be automatically feared? Will you then also judge them based on statistics or will you spend time getting to know them? I believe fear attracts more fear. If that is how you live that is what you will get. Is that what we want our teenagers to learn?

Are not all our children in need of protection, not just our little ones? Aren't our teenagers who are going through a volatile time in their lives in need of protection? Is it possible at some point in your lives you may have both a teenager and a toddler living in your home at the same time? Will your teenager have friends? What will you do?

I do not expect anyone who is uncomfortable hiring a teenage boy as a babysitter to hire my sons. I myself have used very few babysitters. I do however expect that they will be treated with respect and not judged based on statistics and fear, but on their own merits. Fortunately we have not encountered this type of bias irl, but if we did, my instinct would be to protect my children from unwarranted judgement and advocate for them to be known as individuals. They are children just as worthy and deserving as they were when they were little. I think losing sight of this may be perpetuating some of the very issues that are so feared here.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I think many mothers on this thread who have said they will not hire a male babysitter have also stated that they would not have a problem with a trusted male _they already know_ watching their children. The unfortunate fact is some of us have had to use childcare where the relationship with the ccp was not already established. I think the issue many of us have is when there is, for all intents & purposes, a relatively unknown teenage boy or man offering to watch our children, we are not comfortable.

In addition, fwiw, I know in our case (70 nanny applicants) it was just easier to eliminate as many people as possible. If we only had 2-5 canidates, maybe we would have looked more closely at all the resumes. However, I really don't appreciate being told I am "disgusting" for only considering females to watch my children for a significant part of the summer.

I have a son and a husband who used to work wih children, so I *can* understand why Mothering moms might be taken aback by the idea of not hiring male babysitters. What I don't understand is why when 95-98% of sexual abusers are male, these same mothers can not at least acknowlege the very real danger of inviting a male in their home to provide care for our children?

Tigeresse, you ask some very good questions.

Quote:

Is it possible at some point in your lives you may have both a teenager and a toddler living in your home at the same time? Will your teenager have friends? What will you do?
Growing up, this was the case. I was the youngest of 4 and my brothers were all much older than me. I had a wonderful family, but let me just say that some of their "friends" they had over has led me to the decisions I make today.









I think the lack of compassion towards sexual abuse survivors on this thread has been very sad.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
I think the lack of compassion towards sexual abuse survivors on this thread has been very sad.









I haven't seen this at all. I experienced abuse. The perpetrator was a man. He was also related to me. Some of the abuse occured when I was babysitting his kids.

Sure wish my brother had been babysitting! But that is not really relevant here.

A couple of posters commented on how disrespectful it is to survivors to imply that abuse is somehow preventable by following the right formula, and to a degree, I agree with that.

The only person other than MIL who has babysat my child to date is a man. Not only is he a man, but he is an abuse survivor himself, which I am sure we all know makes him statistically more of a risk. But I know him. I trust him. I trust him more than I trust myself. So I'm grateful he's willing to help out from time to time.

Unless there's some outrageous post I've missed, I'm not sure how finding thye idea of rejecting half of humanity as suitable potential caregivers absurd and a bit mean-spirited is lacking in compassion to survivors.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I guess what I am referring to is the fact that in many of the posts women have shared that they have been abused, not much sympathy has really been offered. Or understanding that many of these women would not trust a man to watch their dear children. These posts have been met with anger and accusations of discrimination. Even your response to my pp reflects this.

So no, the lack of compassion has not been blatent. It is more an underlying theme of "so what" and "how dare you discriminate?"


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Good points, Cloverlove. I guess I am a real "mean spirited" weirdo also in that at this point my child's father is the only male I would leave her with. I might expand that to include one of her uncles at a later date, but that's about as far as I can see going. Male teachers aren't an issue; the abysmal conditions for girls in schools are one of my main reasons for planning to homeschool.

I don't consider male relatives or friends to be any safer than stranger males in a lot of ways. My partner and my younger brother are the only males I know well enough to really trust--and my brother not because we're siblings but because we have been close friends and confidantes for 20 years. If we had been merely siblings and not close, I wouldn't have the same kind of trust for him. I know a great number of women who were molested by older brothers, uncles, stepfathers, fathers, grandfathers, and friends of the family.

Here's a thought: what if my reluctance to leave a daughter with a male was a religious qualm rather than a practical and feminist one? I suspect it would get a lot more respect and a lot fewer accusations of "sexism" or "mean-spiritedness." If it were about modesty and faith, it would be OK. But because it's about safety and feminist issues, it's fair game for attack.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
I guess what I am referring to is the fact that in many of the posts women have shared that they have been abused, not much sympathy has really been offered. Or understanding that many of these women would not trust a man to watch their dear children. These posts have been met with anger and accusations of discrimination. Even your response to my pp reflects this.

So no, the lack of compassion has not been blatent. It is more an underlying theme of "so what" and "how dare you discriminate?"


Well, perhaps that's because the thread is about hiring young male babysitters, and is not a support thread for abuse survivors.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
I guess what I am referring to is the fact that in many of the posts women have shared that they have been abused, not much sympathy has really been offered. Or understanding that many of these women would not trust a man to watch their dear children. These posts have been met with anger and accusations of discrimination. Even your response to my pp reflects this.

So no, the lack of compassion has not been blatent. It is more an underlying theme of "so what" and "how dare you discriminate?"

Huh? My sharing of my abuse experience (and my care provider's) and how it affects my decisions is lacking in compassion to survivors of abuse?

Now I'm really confused







: And a little bit offended.









I still the rejection of all men are care-givers is not right. I think that the women on this thread are able to distinguish between my opinion, especially when given in the context of my experience, from a personal slight. *Of course* it makes sense that a woman abused by a babysitter might not want to hire a babysitter who has anything in common with her abuser. Heck, I get nervous just being in a narrow hallway with a man. That is my trigger. It is discriminatory, I guess. I can live with that. That is me. That does not mean that everyone should find it socially acceptable to banish men from hallways less than eight feet wide.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
Well, perhaps that's because the thread is about hiring young male babysitters, and is not a support thread for abuse survivors.

Thanks! You said what I meant in about a quarter as much space!


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

So OK, here's what I don't get: if it is "not right" to "reject" men as caregivers, what am I supposed to do to correct it? Am I honestly supposed to just invite whatever random male sitter or "manny" (PUKE at the cutesy term) shows up to come take my daughter for a while so he can prove he isn't going to scar her for life and so I can prove I'm not an evil man-hater? WTF? And you know, there aren't that many freakin male sitters to start with, should I go seek one out just to prove someone else's point about "reverse discrimination," which I think is about as real a problem in our society as purple dragon attacks? I mean honestly, what?


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Here's a thought: what if my reluctance to leave a daughter with a male was a religious qualm rather than a practical and feminist one? I suspect it would get a lot more respect and a lot fewer accusations of "sexism" or "mean-spiritedness." If it were about modesty and faith, it would be OK. But because it's about safety and feminist issues, it's fair game for attack.

Well, I'm cool with opining that certain religious restrictions are mean-spirited and/or sexist. But then, I'm wearing my flame-proof outfit today.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Here's a thought: what if my reluctance to leave a daughter with a male was a religious qualm rather than a practical and feminist one? I suspect it would get a lot more respect and a lot fewer accusations of "sexism" or "mean-spiritedness." If it were about modesty and faith, it would be OK. But because it's about safety and feminist issues, it's fair game for attack.

Uh, no it wouldn't. "Religious qualms" are not a satisfactory reason to gender discriminate either, not that I fully understand what shape that would take. But I live a secular life.

I'm unclear what you mean by a "feminist issue." Those of use who are opposed to gender discrimination aren't "feminist" enough? Actually, it's my "feminism" that leads me to abhor discrimination based on gender, female OR male.

Look, I don't see anyone arguing that those of you who are uncomfortable with male caregivers should leave your children with male caregivers. But as the mother of a son I must protest the assumption that he's prone to sexually abusing children simply because he's male.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Yeah. I get the impression from some people on here that men and boys are suddenly breaking down the door to take childcare jobs. I can count maybe two guys I know of who ever even babysat. I know I considered babysitting to be hard work for little money. I would have rather shoveled snow or mowed the lawn, personally.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

I don't think you would "just invite whatever random female..etc.?"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
So OK, here's what I don't get: if it is "not right" to "reject" men as caregivers, what am I supposed to do to correct it? Am I honestly supposed to just invite whatever random male sitter or "manny" (PUKE at the cutesy term) shows up to come take my daughter for a while so he can prove he isn't going to scar her for life and so I can prove I'm not an evil man-hater? WTF? And you know, there aren't that many freakin male sitters to start with, should I go seek one out just to prove someone else's point about "reverse discrimination," which I think is about as real a problem in our society as purple dragon attacks? I mean honestly, what?


----------



## mom2alicia (Nov 30, 2004)

I haven't read the responses, just the original post. my response to the original post is: I wouldn't do it. I worked in a sex abuse treatment program for juvenile offenders at one point in my career and the boys who molested other boys usually did it to kids in their care while they were babysitting. The boys who did this seemed perfectly normal and didn't have any real obvious red flags that you would be able to tell that they would do something like this. I think every other counselor in that program felt the same way: they wouldn't risk using a male babysitter. They look and act just like everyone else and you would never suspect they are capable of the awful things they did to the children in their care. That doesn't mean that most boys would do this, probably only a small percentage would, but the ones that do are attracted to and express interest in situations where they would be taking care of young children- amongst others that have an innocent interest. It can be hard to tell what their motivation is until it is too late. molestation is unfortunately commonplace and happens all the time. adolescent offenders (vs adult offenders) are especially under reported as is sex abuse of boys (vs girls). pedophiles begin their career in early adolescence. my advice, keep looking. there are plenty of babysitters around, but they can be hard to find. get referrals for several from a local church teen group, high school child development class, community college child development class, other moms, neighbors, etc invite them over to visit. get a feel for each of them. check their references. talk to their parents. So far, I have only used female babysitters and intend to continue doing so. by the way, females do abuse, but much less frequently. we only had one female ever convicted in our county compared to thousands of males. (although yes, it is underreported as well). p.s. i would only use a 13 year old, male or female, as a mothers helper. i think that is too young to rely on for babysitting.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
Well, perhaps that's because the thread is about hiring young male babysitters, and is not a support thread for abuse survivors.

Ya know, this is just mean. Many of us have stated that we would not hire male babysitters BECAUSE of our past experiences. THIS is what is being dismissed. I certainly don't expect ((((Hugs)))) but I do expect to be HEARD from where I am coming from and not to be called DISGUSTING for my choices.


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
Well, perhaps that's because the thread is about hiring young male babysitters, and is not a support thread for abuse survivors.

Blech.

I'd just like to say that I think a lot of what was shared here in regards to past abuse has to do with disputing various false assumptions about it. It's something I'll think twice about doing next time.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed* 
I don't think you would "just invite whatever random female..etc.?"

In our case (hiring a nanny) it was basically inviting a random stranger into our lives. Sure we had an extensive interview process, background & referral checks and a few trial days with me at home, but I can't sugar-coat the fact that our nanny, who we grew to love & cherish *over time* was, essentially, a stranger when she first started watching our children.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
Ya know, this is just mean. Many of us have stated that we would not hire male babysitters BECAUSE of our past experiences. THIS is what is being dismissed. I certainly don't expect ((((Hugs)))) but I do expect to be HEARD from where I am coming from and not to be called DISGUSTING for my choices.

I am sorry you think it's "mean," but this thread is not about sexual abuse survivors. It is about hiring young men as caregivers, and I am sticking to the topic at hand. There was no snark intended, nor a dismissal of the trauma of abuse. And to clarify, I never called you or anyone else "disgusting." I think that word was used in reference to the content of the thread, and not the participants in it.

And, speaking of dismissing what people are saying, how about those of us who are raising sons and object to them being characterized as potential child abusers??? Are you not dimissing us because you don't think our objections are worthy of consideration???


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
Yeah. I get the impression from some people on here that men and boys are suddenly breaking down the door to take childcare jobs. I can count maybe two guys I know of who ever even babysat. I know I considered babysitting to be hard work for little money. I would have rather shoveled snow or mowed the lawn, personally.

Well, the head teacher at my son's preschool is a man, and he's worked for the center for 30 years. Several of the substitutes are college age men, one of whom is studying early childhood education. I know that will make some of you shudder, but having male role models for my son was one of the things that my dh and I like most about his preschool. Jon, the headteacher, is considered a treasure in our tight-knit community.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2alicia* 
I haven't read the responses, just the original post. my response to the original post is: I wouldn't do it. *I worked in a sex abuse treatment program for juvenile offenders* at one point in my career and *the boys who molested other boys usually did it to kids in their care while they were babysitting. The boys who did this seemed perfectly normal and didn't have any real obvious red flags that you would be able to tell that they would do something like this.* I think every other counselor in that program felt the same way: they wouldn't risk using a male babysitter. They look and act just like everyone else and you would never suspect they are capable of the awful things they did to the children in their care. That doesn't mean that most boys would do this, probably only a small percentage would, but *the ones that do are attracted to and express interest in situations where they would be taking care of young children- amongst others that have an innocent interest.* It can be hard to tell what their motivation is until it is too late. *molestation is unfortunately commonplace and happens all the time. adolescent offenders (vs adult offenders) are especially under reported* as is sex abuse of boys (vs girls). pedophiles begin their career in early adolescence. my advice, keep looking. there are plenty of babysitters around, but they can be hard to find. get referrals for several from a local church teen group, high school child development class, community college child development class, other moms, neighbors, etc invite them over to visit. get a feel for each of them. check their references. talk to their parents. So far, I have only used female babysitters and intend to continue doing so.

Bolding mine. I just hope someone reads this post since it contains real data from someone who has direct, relevant experience.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I have not dismissed anyone. I have said repeatedly (and I know it is impossible to remember who said what, so no worries) that DH and I really struggled with the decision to only consider female nannys and that we felt very bad about it.

I also stated:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
I have a son and a husband who used to work wih children, so I *can* understand why Mothering moms might be taken aback by the idea of not hiring male babysitters.

I just don't understand how people on "the other side" can't/won't even acknowledge that these concerns are not totally unfounded.


----------



## Aliviasmom (Jul 24, 2006)

I think so. I've let dd be watched by a girl whom I believe is 12 or 13. (Is it bad I can't remember?














But she's two. I'm not sure about a 5 yr old. Maybe after they've had some expereince being together. I started babysitting at age 9 for the girl next door who was 4 or 5. My mom was always home, so there were never any problems. (Except for the time I accidentally got us locked out, but we just went and played at my house!)


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove* 
I just don't understand how people on "the other side" can't/won't even acknowledge that these concerns are not totally unfounded.

Because the truth is really effing depressing and we'd rather be happy and pick daisies, lalalalala I can't hear you!







:


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

I can see that part of the concern is an element of self-selection. So few boys are interested in babysitting that a larger proportion are bound to be potential abusers, whereas many, many girls/young women are.

My DH always was interested in babysitting but, other than his cousins, he never tried to find jobs becuase he was afraid of people finding him "creepy"--his teen-age way of not wanting to be thought a potential abuser.

Now I'm the envy of all my friends--my DH is soo much more involved that their theirs mostly are---he babywears and when I was PP when to bat for our family's (his term) nursing relationship with a pro-formula LC. But that is neither here nor there and I'm just bragging.

But to shift a bit--some of you are talking about essential strangers and others are talking about very being very, very cautious. I'm a middle-of-the-roader--my (stb) babysitter is somone I know from the local AP community. Not a stranger, but not a super-close friend. In the same AP community is a SAHD who is *great* with his daughter. We aren't best buds, we haven't known him for long, but we know him better than someone replying to an ad. And he's not a self-selecting male nanny (agree completely about the barfalonousness of the term "manny"); he's a SAH/WAH dad bc his wife needs to finish her degree on a schedule--it was impractical to do otherwise.

In such a hypothetical, would you feel better about hiring a man?

If I hadn't had other, unrelated reasons for working out babysitting with the mama involved, I would've tried to swap babysitting with this dad.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
Because the truth is really effing depressing and we'd rather be happy and pick daisies, lalalalala I can't hear you!







:

The truth that 97-99% of males will never lay a hand on a child (to cite an oft-quoted figure which I have no idea is "true" or not)? Hand me my flower basket...I'm going to pick me some daisies!


----------



## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
Well, the head teacher at my son's preschool is a man, and he's worked for the center for 30 years. Several of the substitutes are college age men, one of whom is studying early childhood education. I know that will make some of you shudder, but having male role models for my son was one of the things that my dh and I like most about his preschool. Jon, the headteacher, is considered a treasure in our tight-knit community.


Yes, men are beating a path to difficult and low-paying jobs like childcare. Next, there will be waves of them competing with women to become secretaries and garment workers.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
Yes, men are beating a path to difficult and low-paying jobs like childcare. Next, there will be waves of them competing with women to become secretaries and garment workers.

What? How did you extrapolate THAT from what I or anyone else posted?


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
Yes, men are beating a path to difficult and low-paying jobs like childcare. Next, there will be waves of them competing with women to become secretaries and garment workers.

No no no! MAN-cretaries and garment MEN and MAN-nurses! Because whenever a man takes a low-paid pink collar job, we need to create a nauseatingly cutesy title to show how awesome he is for condescending to take such a position!


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

This thread is disturbing to me in so many ways. Much of what I feel has already been said, and I feel for both "sides", so I don't really have much to add to that part of the dicsussion. I do have a question I saw before, that I don't think was addressed.

How do we change this?

What can mothers of sons do to help their sons not be pigeonholed into the potential molester category? Is there anything we can do? Or is it a lost cause because of the alarming rate of reported and unreported abuse that plagues us?

My heart aches for all of those abused, _and_ for all the innocent, decent men (and boys) out there who are passed over or categorized simply by virtue of their birth gender. I am fully aware of the male privilige in society, but I still don't think that it makes it right to lump them all together as potential abusers just because they're male. I hate the fact that my son will have to go out of his way to prove he's NOT an abuser. I hate that *anyone* has to go out of their way to prove they are NOT what any particular stereotype is. I hate the fact that there are so many people in this world who would abuse a child. I really, really do.

Discussions like this really depress me (this one, racism threads, etc.), because it seems like there's no way to move forward from the shadows of the past.







:


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tie-dyed* 
In such a hypothetical, would you feel better about hiring a man?

I would have felt completely fine with swapping childcare in that situation. In fact, I would have been relieved to not have to go through the whole hiring "a stranger" process. This is, of course, given my guts felt solid and we did have some mutual friends in common. Also, I would be more likely to do ths in my situation, where my dcs are a litle older and can keep me in the loop.

Thank you, tye-dyed. I am sorry if I offended you earlier.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
My heart aches for all of those abused, _and_ for all the innocent, decent men (and boys) out there who are passed over or categorized simply by virtue of their birth gender. I am fully aware of the male privilige in society, but I still don't think that it makes it right to lump them all together as potential abusers just because they're male.

If I were screaming at and spitting upon random men because I "lumped them in" with abusers, if I were calling the cops on every man I saw with a child, if anyone here were actively persecuting innocent men, maybe there'd be a reason for your heart to "ache" for men the way it aches for women who have been raped, battered, molested, sodomized and exploited. But since really men aren't hurting because of this, I think it's insulting to speak as though being sexually violated and physically and psychologically scarred is on the same par as someone not considering you as a babysitter. I mean for crying out loud.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I am not meaning to pick on you, hhurd, but I don't think the statistics are cause for flower-picking.

According to the US Census Bureau there are 100 million men between the ages of 15-65 in the US. My math isn't that great, but 1-3% of that is still 1-3 MILLION men. Given that many abusers victimize repeatedly before they get caught, well, I wouldn't bring out the flower basket just yet.









I agree, The4ofUs that this discussion is very disturbing. Worthwhile, yes, but I wish we didn't have to have it.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
If I were screaming at and spitting upon random men because I "lumped them in" with abusers, if I were calling the cops on every man I saw with a child, if anyone here were actively persecuting innocent men, maybe there'd be a reason for your heart to "ache" for men the way it aches for women who have been raped, battered, molested, sodomized and exploited. But since really men aren't hurting because of this, I think it's insulting to speak as though being sexually violated and physically and psychologically scarred is on the same par as someone not considering you as a babysitter. I mean for crying out loud.

I clearly don't feel the same magnitude for the two different groups, but I still feel badly for both - why is it wrong for me to feel badly for _anyone_ being assumed to potentially be something they are not? I just don't understand that. I can't not feel badly for men being held in suspicion, or at arms length by others because of the sins of the fathers (figuratively). It's not on the same par obviously -I mean really - I can't even fathom the pain of being abused - and I don't try to. But the other side of the coin _is_ an issue, and I *can* feel for both sides. And really, my heart does ache for my son, to imagine him having to disprove unfair assumptions about him. I don't see what's wrong with that, either - he's my son.

I probably need to just stop reading this threads and threads like this, because I just don't see how we can ever move forward on any issues like this. I don't want people to forget what has happened in the past; we need to remember, we need to learn from the past - but I just don't see how we can ever move forward as a society if we don't do _something_ about issues like this.

Subtle, under the radar discrimination hurts just as much as blatant discrimination. Majority or minority, it's still not right. I do what I can to treat people in my life the way I would like to be treated no matter who or what they are, and unless they are somehow posing an obvious imminent threat to me or my children and I find the need to defend myself. I try to call people out who are treating others unfairly when in my power...I feel like that's all I can do, but it doesn't feel like enough.


----------



## menudo (May 21, 2002)

WOW. This is sad.

People have assumed DH was not DD Dad and been nasty in the past. A horrible incident happened when he went to pick up SIL and BIL from a hotel. They saw him and BIL with DD and automatically thought she could not be his kid and why are 2 men here with that little girl at a hotel. Meanwhile the real predators in suits and such just lurk and get a friendly smile and handshake! In our case this is also a color issue.

People ASSUME too much. We are conditioned to ASSUME any man or teen boy who likes children is a predator. Prejudice and stereotyping are dangerous. Follow your gut but grouping all males into the predator file is just as dangerous as assuming all people are good.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Funny story to lighten the mood:

When DD was about ten days old I had to go to class. DH had DD on campus (so we could nurse on class breaks) and he was walking around with her in a sling. An older woman came up to him, gave him an incredibly dirty look and with the snarkiest of snarky voices (according to DH) demanded: "Where is that baby's MOTHER?!?"

DH is pretty quick and didn't like the assumption that he was a pervert of some kind bc he was holding his own baby, so without missing a beat he replied "I'm not sure where her mother is. My husband and I got her in a closed adoption."

I love my DH....

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled debate...


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

BelgianSheepDog spoke of dasiy picking, I was just riffing on it, cloverleaf. Irony was the only way I knew how to respond. Please.

And, its worth saying that 97 -99 MILLION men in this country will NEVER abuse anyone.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

My daughter started babysitting when she was 13. But, I am down the street, and I only let her watch kids of neighbors or at least families I know.

My daughter is very mature, and can do a good job. My best friend's son is 13, and I wouldn't trust him to babysit. I am not worried that anybody would get hurt. But, he is just a big five year old himself, and wouldn't act responsibly.








For that matter, his Dad is 43, and I wouldn't trust him either. He's a big five year old too.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bebesho2* 
WOW. This is sad.

People have assumed DH was not DD Dad and been nasty in the past. A horrible incident happened when he went to pick up SIL and BIL from a hotel. They saw him and BIL with DD and automatically thought she could not be his kid and why are 2 men here with that little girl at a hotel. Meanwhile the real predators in suits and such just lurk and get a friendly smile and handshake! In our case this is also a color issue.

People ASSUME too much. We are conditioned to ASSUME any man or teen boy who likes children is a predator. Prejudice and stereotyping are dangerous. Follow your gut but grouping all males into the predator file is just as dangerous as assuming all people are good.

Wow, what a horrible thing for your family to have to deal with, and what a terrible thing for your dd to have witnessed. I am very sad for your husband.

I agree that it's the assumptions that are wrong. You really should not assume anything about anybody. There's that old saying about how when you ASSUME you make an A$$ out of U and ME....

I kept lurking here (for some reason I can't seem to leave this thread alone, even though my husband wants me to stop because it is stressing me out, and lately when I get stressed it triggers a nice round of braxton hicks and a gall bladder attack, he's starting to worry for my health), and was saddened that the posts became somewhat personal attacks.

For the record, I said DISCRIMINATING was disgusting. At no point did I say any one here was. And at no point did I (or anyone else) say you should dismiss your concerns and hire a male to prove you aren't a sexist. That's ridiculous frankly. Nor did I say anything, or read anything, telling anybody to ignore the statistics (which by the way, have not been sourced yet...except the Census count of men in the US, but I have yet to see a source for abuse stats) or dismiss abuse victim's stories as a warning to us all.

Tie-dyed: There are so many ways your husband could have handled that situation badly...I think he handled it with humour and hopefully that woman went away rethinking her prejudice.

My husband's ex walked out on him and my dss when dss was 2 months. Phil did encounter many people who thought him 'weird' for taking on becoming a single dad. I shudder to think what may have been their reaction if he'd had a daughter instead of a son. Prejudice sucks, plain and simple.


----------



## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I really need to get off the computer.









I just want to say how sorry I am to tye-dyed. I completely misread your first response to me and jumped to conclusions. I am truly sorry I am so dense.


----------



## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

No worries. If debates didn't get heated, they'd get boring....









Thanks for being nice about it--I hate it when people are irked at me


----------



## Tigeresse (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
And, its worth saying that 97 -99 MILLION men in this country will NEVER abuse anyone.

Thank you, hhurd. And with that I'm done with this thread.







:


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigeresse* 
Thank you, hhurd. And with that I'm done with this thread.







:

Yeah, me too. Off to go and give the wonderful men in my life a big bear hug.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigeresse* 
Thank you, hhurd. And with that I'm done with this thread.







:

Me too...really going to hit that "unsub" button this time...my baby does not need me to get this stressed out over something I cannot change.


----------



## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I should probably unsub as well, but I did find the comments distinguishing between sitters we do and do not know well interesting. Somebody mentioned that they don't feel they should be questioned for not wanting to use a male sitter they don't know ---- I agree, but I can not imagine using a female sitter I don't know either.

I haven't wanted to chime in with personal experience because it seems so narrowly focused, but my brother was treated really poorly by a female home daycare provider we went to as kids. Not sexually abused, but belittled, hit, and locked in a closet. As a result, I would never be comfortable with hdc and would want the checks & balances of a childcare center and multiple staff members if seeking out care for my sons. What is odd to me about this topic/debate is the focus on sexual abuse in contrast with all the ways that our children can be hurt. I used to be a child welfare social worker and saw my share of sexual abuse, but my goodness care providers and other adults do other things to children that are also just terrible, ykwim?

If anybody doesn't feel safe with a boy they don't know, but would be comfortable with a girl they don't know they should really consider whether the only abuse they fear is sexual, ykwim?

Anyway, back to my kids who I don't leave with teenagers. Period. I just simply don't need to get out that badly.

BJ
Barney, Ben & soon to be #3!!!


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
And what if we were talking about a 13yo girl and a 20 year old man? If we removed all these kinds of stats from the equation, the number of children sexually abused drops dramatically. No way is it fair to call it abuse when it's a girl but sex when it's a boy. Talk about sexism.

They "don't have an issue with it" that they know of. They are children. They have no idea of the impact these things have on them. That's why it is the responsibility of the adult to act in an appropriate way - we have an understanding about how these things can mess you up, without even realizing it.

I meant as men now. Dh is one of them. He doesn't feel like it was a big deal. Just shocking to me.


----------



## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

lesley&grace;7026613 said:


> Chinakat....where did you get your statistic? I mentioned this to my husband and he said it seemed high, which I am inclined to agree. Just wondering so I can see the source, thanks!
> 
> I saw the statistic, too, somewhere back a few pages there was a link to molestation statistics and it was on there.


----------



## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

I haven't read many of the replies... didn't want to get sucked into the debate.









Just wanted to chime in to the OP that my home daycare provider has a 13 year old son. I would trust him to care for one or both of my children for a short time. I don't usually hire babysitters (outside of daycare) so it hasn't come up.

I wouldn't normally want a sitter that young. I was babysitting at that age and younger but somehow that seems different... different time I guess. I'd trust this boy though because I've known him and his family for 5 years. He's used to helping his mom with her daycare kids and my kids both adore him.

I'll confess that I initially had fears about a boy being interested in childcare. Now that I and my children have gotten to know him I no longer have those fears. I often tell his mom that he's going to make a wonderful husband and father when he's grown. I consider myself lucky that my ds has a chance to be exposed to such a nurturing young male role model.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Just FYI here is the link again....

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly* 
Yes, men are beating a path to difficult and low-paying jobs like childcare. Next, there will be waves of them competing with women to become secretaries and garment workers.


----------



## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
Just FYI here is the link again....

http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html

Thanks.

I read this over twice. Then again. Then again just to be sure. The only thing close to a 1-3% of men are molesters statistic was this quote: "• Dr. Gene Abel estimates that between 1% and 5% of our population molest children
-CNN Specials Transcript #454-Thieves of Childhood. "

That's terrible. Scary even.

But to be a pain about particulars....1) Not specific to men 2) He is ESTIMATING. While I am sure that Dr Abel is an expert in this field, but he is not really accounting for actual data collected...therefore it's not a true stat, it's his opinion. All the other stats were based on samples of offenders, and yes, they were disturbing. But for me, they still do not justify making monsters out of all men.

Get to know, listen to your gut/instinct, then decide. That's all I am asking for.


----------



## JDaddy (Aug 25, 2006)

Kinda late to the party, but this was crossposted in the Dads forum, and I just wanted to share my thoughts. I can understand the reservations people have about the potential for abuse, but I think that needs to be balanced with the potential good that could come from hiring a teenage boy as a sitter. I particularly liked what snuggly mama had to say on the topic:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snuggly mama* 
Don't we want to raise our boys to be nurterers? Don't we want them to have concrete experiences in caring for young children? But if we tell them, subtly or explicitly, that we don't trust them to be alone with young kids, or we don't trust their abilities (but would trust a girl in the exact same circumstances), then how can we realistically expect them to assume involved fathering roles later in life?

I couldn't agree more. I did some babysitting when I was a teenager and enjoyed it a lot and now I'm a stay-at-home dad and find that immensely rewarding, so I definitely think it's valuable to give boys a chance to take on a nurturing role.

Jacob


----------



## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

I trust a man to be my kids' dad. I'll trust a man to be their babysitter as well. And just like I wouldn't trust just any man to be the dad of my kids, I wouldn't trust just any man to be their babysitter either. It's not an issue of gender to me at all. Anyone who takes care of my children will have to be someone I trust with them. Man or woman, young or old, doesn't matter.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

I was just thinking, for those who choose not to use male caregivers because of your understanding of statistical probabilities- would you ever consider remarrying if you are single or ended up single? Because statistically, stepfathers are the real boogiemen....


----------



## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

No. I wouldn't leave my children with anyone who doesn't have a driver's license and reliable transportation. But gender wouldn't have anything to do with my decision.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I find it so odd how many people here wouldn't leave their child in the car while they walk 6 feet away to pay for gas, wouldn't take a pee while their kiddos are in a shopping cart in a grocery store, but would happily hire a male babysitter without any kind of extra intuitive screening process.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I find it so odd how many people here wouldn't leave their child in the car while they walk 6 feet away to pay for gas, wouldn't take a pee while their kiddos are in a shopping cart in a grocery store, but would happily hire a male babysitter without any kind of extra intuitive screening process.

But I don't think many of us are saying that - that we would just hire a male without any screening process. I would screen a babysitter or other caregiver thoroughly, no matter what sex they were. What I think many of us are trying to get across is we wouldn't be _less_ likely to hire a male simply *because* he is male.

I would not hire anyone to take care of my children, male *or* female, without screening them for all sorts of things, and getting a good feel for them as a person...and likely having them spend time with my children while I was present for a period of time, and then dropping by unannounced as I felt necessary.

As it stands, I do not require childcare right now. But if and when I do, you're darn tootin' I'll be researching he caregiver(s) thoroughly, regardless of their age or sex.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
but would happily hire a male babysitter without any kind of extra intuitive screening process.

How would one conduct a "extra intuitive screening process?" What does that look like? Are electrodes involved?

Ok, I'm joking with that last question, but the first two are serious.


----------



## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

First, I want to say that sexual abuse or assault is a horrible and lasting experience and my wish is that no one, male or female, will ever have to experience it. I also want to say thank you to those that disclosed your own personal experiences. I understand why those with a previous experience of sexual abuse, especially at the hands of a male babysitter or a male teenager, would not want to consider the idea of a male babysitter for your child(ren). I respect that decision fully.

I also want to say that I acknowledge the very real existence of male privledge in our culture. Just take a look at our political representatives, the leaders of industry, etc. to see it. Or, take a look at the vast difference in paychecks.

However, as the mother of boy, I am saddended by the number of post(excluding those mentioned above) that would eliminate the possibility of a male caregiver simply because of gender. I am struck by the mixed messages that are sent to boys in our culture - do not be violent, but do not be tender. Our culture often sends very shaming messages to boys such as "do not cry," "do not show feelings," "do not play rough with each other," "do not have violent fantasies" (I am referring her to the fantasy play of young boys). I invite you to read "Raising Cain, Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys." I also invite you to read "Killing Monsters", "Bad Guys Don't Have Birthdays" and "The Importance of Fantasy Play".

Yes, while male priveledge is real, our boys are facing unprecented obstacles in the U.S. The number of boys graduating high school is FAR below that of females, as is the number of college admissions (it is currently 60% female, 40% male but those numbers are expected to go to 80%/20% within the next ten years). Boys account for a HUGE majority of children who are medicated for "behavioral problems." Boys see very, very few positive role models in schools, churchs, communities, etc. They don't know who or what they are suppose to do because our culture's messages to them are so mixed. They are told to FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT on the fields and then to SIT STILL LIKE THE GIRLS in the classrooms. They are told to be gentle and kind but are then shamed or, worse, accused, for it.

I believe I am raising the children that will change the world (and I have one of each). I hope that I am teaching them to be caring, tender, gentle, strong and also to freely express their thoughts and fantasies in productive ways. I am also teaching both of them about male privledge as well as white privledge. It is disheartening to think that if my son exhibits the above mentioned qualties as an adult, that he will be thought of as a potential predator. How will we end the cycle??

Oh, and I think 13 is too young, especially for a boy as maturity comes later for them, on average.

No time to proof read...


----------



## Cassandra M. (Aug 3, 2003)

I read PTG, and agreed with the sentiment that by choosing a female you are automatically screening out 99% of sexual abusers.

Then again, I wasn't considering the other types of abuse that are prevalent and probably more so with females...ie emotional.

We haven't had anyone but family watch our kids and I doubt that will change. They are almost 4 and 6 and have only really been watched by our parents and my sisters. I have thought about hiring a college age babysitter so my husband and I can go out occasionally, but I really don't know if that will end up happening.

My parents allowed a 14 yr old neighbor boy to watch my younger siblings, and my brother (now 28) just spoke out last year that he was raped by the babysitter. I have to say the neighborhood boy exhibited all the signs of an abuser and my parents just didn't recognize it or chose not to.







It has definitely incapacitated my brother and his ability to live a normal life on a deep level. I don't think my parents are at fault for choosing a male caregiver, I think the mistake was not screening and taking the time to find someone safe to watch their kids, and instead unleashing a psychopath.

My brother was 9 and unable to tell my parents because he had no idea that could even happen to a boy and felt so ashamed. He instead started acting out and getting in trouble, and ended up spending the majority of his teen years in juvenile detention homes and then moving up to the adult criminal system to which he still is in today.

I have a boy, and I can't blame parents for automatically wanting to wipe out the 99% of sexual abusers in the one sweep of chosing a female caregiver, though I think it would be naive to say their child is any more safe because of it. Interviews and screening processes for babysitters should be pretty extensive considering they are caring for such precious and vulnerable people, regardless if they are male or female.


----------



## Cassandra M. (Aug 3, 2003)

Also wanted to add there is no way I'd leave a 13 y old in charge of my kids, regardless if they are male or female. I just think that's way too young to be able to handle the many problems or situations that could potentially come up.


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Just wondering.....how would you determine if someone is a child abuser in a "prescreening process"? In my mind there is no way to tell if someone is an abuser or has the potential to abuse. Maybe a babysitter has never molested before but then when you hire them and the opportunity presents itself, well....

For me and my history I am not going to risk it. I don't have anyone but grandparents watch my boys anyway so I discriminate everyone.









I also want to say I feel more confident that I could tell if my child was being physically or emotionally abused much more than sexually.


----------



## Cassandra M. (Aug 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
Just wondering.....how would you determine if someone is a child abuser in a "prescreening process"? In my mind there is no way to tell if someone is an abuser or has the potential to abuse. Maybe a babysitter has never molested before but then when you hire them and the opportunity presents itself, well....

For me and my history I am not going to risk it. I don't have anyone but grandparents watch my boys anyway so I discriminate everyone.









I also want to say I feel more confident that I could tell if my child was being physically or emotionally abused much more than sexually.


I worry about the same thing. As much as I would like and even think my children could potentially be benefited by having an occasional babysitter, I just haven't brought myself to be able to do it.

There's a list that Gavin D. Becker has as a screening/interview process for babysitters. He also recommends checking several references, and each time asking the person giving the reference if there is someone else they know of that knows the person, possibly getting surprise info. We don't *have* to have a babysitter. If we did, I'd be very glad to have this list.

Why do you feel more confident in knowing that your child was being pysically or emotionally abused vs. sexually?


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
Just wondering.....how would you determine if someone is a child abuser in a "prescreening process"? In my mind there is no way to tell if someone is an abuser or has the potential to abuse. Maybe a babysitter has never molested before but then when you hire them and the opportunity presents itself, well....

IMO, a prescreening process for a babysitter is largely a matter of getting to know them. References are helpful, but I'm far more concerned with my own gut reaction and level of trust.

Quote:

I also want to say I feel more confident that I could tell if my child was being physically or emotionally abused much more than sexually.
Why? Sexual abuse _is_ emotional abuse. Why do you think you'd be able to tell if your child was being emotionally abused in other ways, but not in this one?


----------



## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 

I also want to say I feel more confident that I could tell if my child was being physically or emotionally abused much more than sexually.

First many children that are sexually abused are ashamed. It is a secret. If you tell than *something* will happen and that will be your fault. I know I was and it was only one time when I spoke up about abuse out of the numerous times it happened to me. There are many other emotions that may play a factor.

With physical abuse a childs most obvious response may be fear. That would send me red flags. Also physical abuse would more than likely leave visable evidence and/or it's harder to hide. Also someone thats physically abusive is not quiet. Maybe neighbors have heard someone yelling or a child crying. Maybe the police have been called. All this makes it much harder to hide IMO.

I am being real general here but I'm trying to explain from my comfort level. I am in no way saying these are absolutes or facts...just my opinion.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd* 
How would one conduct a "extra intuitive screening process?" What does that look like? Are electrodes involved?

Ok, I'm joking with that last question, but the first two are serious.

I would have to know the man really, really well, and *feel* in my gut that he would not abuse my child, after asking myself that specific question and thinking about how often girls get molested in this culture.

That's what it looks like for me.







And unfortunately, it's still no guarantee.

ETA - If I had electrodes, I would use them.


----------



## Cassandra M. (Aug 3, 2003)

You could also just ask the person straight up if they ever molested or harmed a child before. Odds are, they won't fess up even if they did, but you might startle them and see something flash through their eyes that you don't like....or, on the other hand, see their response and feel very comfortable it was genuine. The truth is, you will never know if you were being overparanoid or not, because if you refuse someone, you aren't giving them the opportunity to do what you're afraid they were going to do in the first place, if that makes any sense.


----------



## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain* 
I was just thinking, for those who choose not to use male caregivers because of your understanding of statistical probabilities- would you ever consider remarrying if you are single or ended up single? Because statistically, stepfathers are the real boogiemen....

Actually I would only date women if I ended up single, and this is one of the reasons for that. No joke. I'm bi, it's no skin off my nose.


----------



## Cassandra M. (Aug 3, 2003)

I'd actually pass on another guy if something happened between P and I....at least until my kids were raised, I might date or have a boyfriend, but we'd be living separately, and I'd never get married again ever. I don't philosphically agree with marriage anyway.


----------



## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

My 13 yo ds babysits for me all the time, but I trust him-I am his mom. I wouldn't trust a 13yo normally due to maturity (hanging out with 13yos alot solidifies this). I wouldn't leave him with the girls if they weren't potty trained, not because I think he would do something, but because it would totally gross him out.

I had a male babysitter for ds when he was little (potty trained though). He rocked. He was working at ds's daycare center while he trained to be a police officer with the sheriff's department. I thought it was such an asset to have a cool guy for him to hang out with when I was gone. He adored Kevin and still has good memories of him.

Ds comes to work with me at my various childcare jobs and is great with kids, but I probably wouldn't let him babysit until he is older and could handle all types of emergencies that come up.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Both DH and I were sexually abused by men, so no, I would never have a man or boy care for my children. IMO its definitely not worth the risk. I also would never have a child babysit my kids either.

I also wouldn't want my boys to be babysitters and would discourage it. I wouldn't want them to be put in a position where they could be falsely accused of abuse. Even if they were found not guilty of something like that, the accusation would always be there and people remember that.


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I wouldn't have a 13 year old, neither would I have a boy babysit my children. Like others here, I've read Protecting the Gift, which confirmed my instincts that I simply would not have a male caregiver, unless it were a member of my family who I trust implicitly.

The fairness of it all is totally outweighed by statistical facts in my mind. I was attacked once a long time ago on mdc for voicing this opinion, and accused of all sorts of prejudices because I had girls at that point and no boys. Well, now I have a son too, and I still hold the same view. Having a boy didn't change anything, and I don't look at him and want to cry because of people having attitudes like mine.







I was told then that if I had a son I'd be hurt by people like me, but nope, I still wouldn't have a male caregiver, period. Not worth the risk imo.


----------



## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

I was emotionally abused (shamed, guilted, mocked) by several babysitters and other caretakers, all of them female.

I was physically abused (spanked, yanked, slapped, got my hair tugged) by more female caretakers. (BTW, my mother was/is vehemently against corporal punishment, doesn't condone of shaming either, and did tell that to everyone who ever looked after me.)

I have also been sexually abused by men, but never by a male caretaker, even though I had a fair few male babysitters. My male babysitters never practiced any of these forms of abuse. They were the ones who didn't just watch the tv or talk on the phone while looking after me, they actually paid attention and played with me.

My mother doesn't know about any of these incidents. To think that you're more likely to find out if your child is spanked than if they're sexually abused is absurd to me. I didn't tell my mother about having been spanked because (surprise, surprise) I was ashamed. I'd been told that if I told my mother, there would be trouble. It was not all that different from what a sexual abuser tells a child.

To me, abuse is abuse. Physical, emotional or sexual. Sexual abuse is both physical and emotional. I'll do my damndest to keep my kids safe from all forms of abuse. And that is why my screening process for babysitters will take into account the fact that gender has very little to do with one's likelihood to abuse.

For example, I'd be much more comfortable leaving my children alone with my SFIL than my aunt. My aunt spanks and made me terribly scared of 'doing the wrong thing' when I was little. She loved telling me I was fat, lazy and stupid. She would slap me if I didn't want to do what she wanted me to. My SFIL on the other hand doesn't have any children of his own, but loves being around kids, and is very attentive and nurturing to DP's nephew and niece. I'm sure there will be people who will say that's a sure sign that he's a raging child predator, but really, I think I'll follow my gut instinct and experience on this one.


----------



## lubroge (Oct 10, 2005)

It depends on how well I knew the kid and the parents, How mature the child was, if I think he/she could handle my kids,so considering these factors and I knew the family trusted the kid, than yeah I would.


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Dude, IMO if a teenage boy can molest his sister, I'm not trusting him with babysitting my kid. It's a stone's throw, kwim?







:

Totally, my MIL never in a million years thought that her father (who raped her) would ever molest her son because he was a boy when she left him in his care for several months. She was wrong about that and it's something she will regret for the rest of her life.


----------



## Dreaming (Feb 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cassandra M.* 
Also wanted to add there is no way I'd leave a 13 y old in charge of my kids, regardless if they are male or female. I just think that's way too young to be able to handle the many problems or situations that could potentially come up.


This.

No male sitters at all here. Any female sitters are very good friends of mine.
I would allow my baby brother to sit with them if necessary. He's 19. I wouldn't leave my precious babies for 5 minutes with my other 2 brothers.

FWIW, I was abused by male relatives. My best friend was abused by female relatives. I think it comes down to trusting the wrong people regardless of gender.

I would rather stay home until my kids are old enough to care for themselves than risk a lifetime of trauma.


----------



## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Britishmum said:


> I wouldn't have a 13 year old, neither would I have a boy babysit my children. *Like others here, I've read Protecting the Gift*, which confirmed my instincts that *I simply would not have a male caregiver, unless it were a member of my family who I trust implicitly*.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

there are alot of great things in this thread and im glad it was made and has come this far. i shall, add my two cents to it as well as answer some qustions that were answerd here.

especially the one:

Why would a male want to work with children, as a preschool teacher, nanny or any job that requires direct care with children??!

but for right now i got to go study and hit the sack i shall return tomorrow morning with my response.

cheers
Suprakid

other wise known as Panditha, better known as mdc's first ever male nanny/babysitter/preschool teacher


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suprakid1982* 
Why would a male want to work with children, as a preschool teacher, nanny or any job that requires direct care with children??!

Why would a female?


----------



## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suprakid1982* 
Why would a male want to work with children, as a preschool teacher, nanny or any job that requires direct care with children??!


My son's babysitter used to work at a drugstore and enjoyed playing with the children that came in so much that the moms' kept suggesting that he work at a daycare. He got a job at one and got several of his friends to get jobs there. It was the best year at the daycare. They had tons of really nice male teachers and the boys were in heaven.

I think boys don't normally consider that men's work unless they think "outside of the box" of normal societal thinking. Once they do, it is just a natural job for some men because they enjoy kids so much.


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Why would a female?

THATs what i was going to ask as well









ill answer this question for now, but ill definitly come back to the rest, classes just started.

so as to why i myself would want to work with kids as a preschool teacher, or babysitter/nanny:

well ill tell you this, at first i didnt want to work as either, i knew i wanted to work with kids BUT as a pediatrician. However when i started college I was taking my science classes etc. and realized that even tho i was good at it, i wasnt getting the grades necessary to finish my pre-meds. As i was taking these courses i took one child development class, which i originally took for an elective. in this class i was required to do a practicum of 60hrs, in a classroom of 3-5 year olds. I learnd alot in my own class as well as learnd that as a preschool teacher i could could combine many of my intrests and talents( such as art, science) etc. PLUS i found out and was told that i had immense patience working with kids and was very energetic and enthusiastic as well as nurturing and tactful. I also really enjoyed the challenges that were put before me ( such as working creativily, work under pressure etc.) Qualities which i previously knew i had but thoight that they would not really be necessary as much. I also found that i really enjoyed going to work with them, and also very much enjoyed coming up with lesson plans etc.

Another reason why i went into the feild was to break the gender barrier, to show that especially at the ages of 0-8(early childhood) children need postive role models of BOTH genders and need to see that their jobs are not sterotypically based( ie a girl can only be a teacher, a boy cant take care of babies etc. etc.) i was well aware of the fears that would lie ahead of me such as accusations of being branded a pedophile etc. but i knew that any job has its challenges and if i let those fears just take a hold of me and stop me from doing what i knew i loved, what would i be teaching the kids? or better yet to myself, and my family who knew that i could do so much and knew that i was someone parents and their kids were looking for those days and now, a teacher tha TRULY listens, and doesnt assume the Im right your wrong attitude? i was also well educated on what to do to avoid any such false accusations such as saftey procedures.

I assumed that the parents would be the ones who were paranoid, and would hover over me like bees on honey, but i was wrong, every place i went to i was given praise, and with warm smiles and words, such as its so great to have a guy here, my son/daughter really likes you, thank you for your kindness and being a true teacher, etc.

the only people that were THAT paranoid and by THAT paranoid i mean overly excessivly paranoid to the point where i was very uneasy with them treating me the way they did was the staff at a couple preschools i worked at. whenever i would hug a child they would frown upon me, whenver a child came up to me and gave me, they would say its not okay to hug him, if a child was sick or hurt and i went to comfort them they would look at me like i was a predator.

i understood saftey, for myself and the center, for instance whenever a child would need to go to the bathroom id make sure there was another person nearby, OR i would standin front of the door way with one foot in and one foot out. to be visible. to the child and to my other co-workers.

one thing that really got to me was the changing of diapers/pull ups, they would tell me that i was going to get falsley accused etc. etc. even if i was visible to all, while doing it, and there was another staff member with me, yet the thing that got to me was that it really hindered my job, as parents or care givers would know when a child needs to be changed meet that need NOW, well imagine this with 20 kids and one wet kid, and me holding her comforting her whilst waiting for one of my female co-workers to come help me, 20 mins later, no one. I said to myself forget this, and went and changed her,

her mom wasnt too happy even when i told her the center's policies, she said to me "bs, male or female doesnt matter when my child needs to be changed CHANGE HER NOW!!.

So in other words, if its part of the job i do it, i dont just sit there waiting for someone else. furthermore in my child development classes i was thaght to be nurturing, caring etc. soo... what harm am i doing?!

one thing that really got to me even more was when a child would come up to me and hug me or sit on my lap, or ask me to pick them up i would have to say im sorry i cant do that because i will get in trouble if i do







.

after those two centers that treated me like dirt, i quit from teaching for a bit and went onto nannying/babysitting, i knew that i woudlnt be treated like i was at the center, and i would finally be able to do what i originally set out to do when i went into the feild, and that was work with children and families, it was a bit harder to find work, but the people i found never treated me by my gender, and i knew that they wouldnt hire me based on that







, but on my qualities, characterisitics etc.

one thing i do also as a means of saying thank you to those that hire me as a nanny/babysitter is i give them free days, which are days that they can use if they cannot pay me and need a time off away from the kids, some help around the house etc. this is to show my gratitude of to thso people that dont judge by gender when it comes to knowing who is good to work with kids/statistics wise and know that either gender can hurt, it depends onthe person, because those people as ive seen are quite rare, and since i am a person who understands that being a parent isnt easy and that we all need our days off, me and them lol, as well as to show that i truly do care.

after i started nannying parents from my former schools that i worked at told me that i should apply to their preschool etc., so i put up my resume and had several call me, i was quite hesitent to do so, but well i thoght why not give it a whirl. as i said several called me, however only one passed my test, my test consisted of one question:

would my duties be cut due to my gender, by this i mean would i be treated as an equal.

the place i work at right now really passed my test with flying colors







im a substitute teacher here, and the the staff are like my family and the parents treat me the same, as a teacher, and individual, and NOT by my gender.

my goal is to be a kindergarten teacher, moslty due to the pay and its much like working as a preschool teacher, i say about the pay because well, lving in california and being an artist, art collector, and a car nut, is not easy!.

so why would a female? well pretty much the same reasons as a male would, they love kids, enjoy watching them grow and helping them, enjoy being creative, have great energy, love getting down and dirty ( ie paint splatter etc.)

yeah that was long but i have come a long way so far lol.


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laralou* 
I think boys don't normally consider that men's work unless they think "outside of the box" of normal societal thinking. Once they do, it is just a natural job for some men because they enjoy kids so much.

theres one thing tho, this job is definlty not "woman's" work, in other words its not just carress and kiss booboos type thing or whatever other sterotype that is in volved. it is hard work that requires REAL men ( female and male) to do it.


----------



## aMothersLove (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Would you let a 13yo boy babysit?

I haven't read all the replies because this thread is a million pages long. But my answer is NO WAY! Im over protective I know, but I would only let another mother babysit my child. And she has to be 20s+. Never a guy unless it was a family member.


----------



## bullfrog (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't think I would let a *13 year* old baby sit, boy or girl. And I was a 13 year old baby sitter.


----------



## DoctorGirlfriend (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bullfrog* 
I don't think I would let a *13 year* old baby sit, boy or girl. And I was a 13 year old baby sitter.

Man, I was thinking about that while reading through this thread. I babysat starting at 12.


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suprakid1982* 
it is hard work that requires REAL men ( female and male) to do it.


um, no.


----------



## FillingMyQuiver (Jul 20, 2004)

Wow this thread is long







:

I would NOT let a 13yo babysit my kids. Doesn't matter what their gender. Yes, I started babysitting very young. Heck, by the time I was 10.5, I was watching my 8yo brother, my 3yo brother, and my 1yo sister for a few hours at home while my parents went to meetings at our church around the corner. By the time I was 13, I was watching 4 boys across the street from us for about 4hrs an evening/ 3x a week. Do I think it was the wisest choice in hindsight? No. I was a "certified" sitter, I had taken the course on babysitting. I had siblings I helped care for, etc, etc. But I don't think a 13yo is truly ready for that responsibility, yet.
That said, I have a 13yo BIL. *In an emergency*, would I let him watch my kids. You bet. I know his character. I know that he would take the best care of my kids and would follow the way I parent. I've watched him interact w/ them when I've left the room and he thought I wasn't looking. I *DO* trust, and so does my gut. But I wouldn't make it a regular occurrence. Again, I don't think he's mature enough to handle something like that.


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
um, no.

its quite easy? or is it that real men part? by that i ment both male and female ( aka man and woman) sorry if i put that wrong


----------



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

i have zero desire to be a man, "real" or otherwise, or be referred to as one.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:
Yep, I'm sad so many Moms are going to be looking at my boys w/suspicion based on their gender.


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush* 
i have zero desire to be a man, "real" or otherwise, or be referred to as one.

by real men i mean human beings







that and trying to extingish the sterotype that people who are strong etc. are only boys, because IMHO both male and female are strong, graceful etc. there is no diffrence in that characteristc to me kwim?


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 







:
Yep, I'm sad so many Moms are going to be looking at my boys w/suspicion based on their gender.









such a socity eh? hopefully more males will start to work in the feild as well and maybe just maybe it might change. im trying as one of my goals is to break the gender barrier.

oh and as for your question of where i was

i was/am busy studying, creating lesson plans, and planning on what activity to do with my kids when i go to babysit them( movie, park, games, or museum ) still deciding since i know they love doing lots of those sometimes all at once









thanks for remembering me


----------



## bamboozled (Jun 25, 2006)

I read a few pages of these posts and I read a lot of arguing. I am amazed at what I read. And I found this post through another asking for male opinion. I am not sure how answer any of these questions. The original post asked about a 13 year old male babysitter and whether he should be able to babysit. Several people mentioned getting to know the boy. For all babysitters you should know who they are. Male or female, statistics or no statistics, knowing who you are leaving the most important thing of your life with is important. It is sad and a shame that society views are still strong about male abusers. People are questioning a young adult's ability only on one part of him. A part that he had no control over. The real issue is the outlook that we as a society have developed. I would want to think that in a world where freedoms of women had to be fought for you would have to consider that discriminating someone due to gender alone is wrong. Just as wrong as judging by the color of a person's skin, lifestyle, or culture.

I wasn't going to write here because I felt afraid that if I wrote the wrong thing I would become a target. But the more I thought about what was being said I realized that according to some of the responses here I am a danger. I watched a small boy (4) and a small girl (<2) when I was 15/16. I did just what my father did for me, and my grandfather for me and my sisters. I would hate to be told I couldn't do something because I was male. But statistically speaking since I have a penis I may be a predator to all children. Do I stop watching my own daughter in fear that I may abuse her? Actually according to some of the responses in this thread, maybe it is okay as long as my wife or female neighbor is close by "watching me". Maybe we should employ babysitters for the babysitters. You get the picture...


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I found out the other day that our babysitter was 13. I thought she was 15. Go figure (she was 5 when our oldest was born and M is 10. She must have been almost 5 or something . . . . )

anyhooooo . . .best babysitter we have ever had.


----------



## Suprakid1982 (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamboozled* 
I I would want to think that in a world where freedoms of women had to be fought for you would have to consider that discriminating someone due to gender alone is wrong. Just as wrong as judging by the color of a person's skin, lifestyle, or culture.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamboozled* 
I wasn't going to write here because I felt afraid that if I wrote the wrong thing I would become a target. But the more I thought about what was being said I realized that according to some of the responses here I am a danger. I watched a small boy (4) and a small girl (<2) when I was 15/16. I did just what my father did for me, and my grandfather for me and my sisters. I would hate to be told I couldn't do something because I was male. But statistically speaking since I have a penis I may be a predator to all children. Do I stop watching my own daughter in fear that I may abuse her? Actually according to some of the responses in this thread, maybe it is okay as long as my wife or female neighbor is close by "watching me". Maybe we should employ babysitters for the babysitters. You get the picture...

well said


----------



## the_anti_grrrl (Jan 24, 2004)

I would not let a 13 year old babysit, reguardless of their sex. But that being said - i more than likey wouldn't let a male babysit my DD anyway, i'm just not comfortable with that...

Actually, I'm just not a very trusting person when it comes to people and my DD. The only people dh and i allow to watch her is my mom, and sometimes my dad if we are just gonna be out for um, under an hour (he doesn't like to "do" diapers







).

I like to err on the side of better safe than sorry. Am i really doing my daughter harm because i don't allow people, esp. boys, to watch her?


----------



## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow. This thread. holy cats I bet the OP had no idea the can of worms...Should a 13 year old boy babysit. Huh. When you send a kid to camp, there are helpers there who are likely about that age doing scout activities, etc. There are helpers at school who are about that age doing tutoring. There are also statistics that are so misleading and fear-inducing it makes me want to throw out the TV. (wait, I did that). We can find some numbers to back up anything we want to. I can find some numbers that say how many Christian people are perpetrators, and use that against all potential Christian caregivers. It could go on and on. I think it's very important to use the heebie jeebie hair-raising instinct we are all born with, if it's still intact. For those who were abused, and haven't regained their jeebie alerts, they really should be the ones who are more astute about caregivers and people who are around their children. And yes, there should be a bit of fear for them--the radar is broken! I would feel fine with my children being with anyone that I felt comfortable with, and I would also hope that by the time I have to worry about 13 year old sitters my kids have good sets of lungs and kick hard -- since they will be well-innoculated with safety concerns and how to keep themselves out of danger--my own little "gift of fear"--here'e how the heebiejeebie alert works, kids.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Wouldn't that be nice- if it was that easy.
But its not.
1 in 3 girls in this country is molested. SOMEONE is molesting them and it is not always because they do not know how to kick......
When people say things like this it touches on victim blaming.
I will raise my kids strong enough this won't happen to them. NO. NO. NO.
That is not an absolute. Predators are just that- predators.
Emilie


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
What minute percentage of males are child abusers? And yet you paint _all_ men with the same brush? Fully half of the earth's population? I find this attitude troubling.

I also am curious about your statistic of 1 in 3 girls being victims of sexual abuse. Can you provide a link? I know several women who were unfortunate victims of sexual abuse as children, but I find it difficult to believe that 1 in 3 girls are. That would mean an astonishing number of child abusers out there. I just don't believe that is accurate.

Yes, it is horrible that people prey on children sexually. Yes, we need to do what we can to protect our children. I don't wear blinders regarding the dangers out there. But starting out assuming that _everybody_ is a sexual predator is just perpetrating a culture of fear, IMO.

















:


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

http://www.childmolestationvictim.com/prevention.html

I found this interesting.
The list of who the abusers are.


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/inde...CFQS1IgodnDPEv

One in 6 is I guess.
I don't know where the 3 came in- but still startling.
ANd THAT Figure I believe is skued due to underreporting.
Emilie


----------



## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

http://www.rainn.org/what-should-i-do/index.html

This is interesting also and has lots of links.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emilie* 
Wouldn't that be nice- if it was that easy.
But its not.
1 in 3 girls in this country is molested. SOMEONE is molesting them and it is not always because they do not know how to kick......
When people say things like this it touches on victim blaming.

I feel that the best thing I can do to protect my kids isn't keeping them away from people, but teaching them what's appropriate and what isn't, and teaching them to trust their instincts. I think teaching them that they don't have to hug grandma or kiss their uncle if they don't want to is more valuable than all the reference checks in the world. I also believe that if I hadn't received some of the sick messages from my grandmother that I did, I wouldn't have ended up being abused and keeping my mouth shut. I'm not blaming myself when I say that. I'm not blaming the victim when I say that educating the kids and teaching them to trust themselves is important. I don't get how you think that's blaming the victim in any way. If a child is taught that they have no right to say no - "you have to kiss grandpa" when the kid is crying because they don't want to - and said child ends up getting abused - maybe by the same person that they didn't want to kiss...then the child is blameless, but the person who taught them that they have no rights to their own body is _not_.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emilie* 
1 in 3 girls in this country is molested. SOMEONE is molesting them and it is not always because they do not know how to kick......

This is a stat that is misused really often. The original is a World Health Organization figure for female children world-wide who are abused because they are women. If you look at what they counted, you will quickly realize that many things your daughter doesn't have to worry about that is included in that stat (at least I hope these aren't issues in your life): female circumcision/genital mutilation, beatings because they are girls who aren't behaving as proper girls should (visualize muslim countries), rape in refugee camps ... plus the molestation that we western types tend to think of first. So its really not a very useful stat for us. Though it is absolutely horrid to realize how many young women are victimized around the world -- I don't mean to belittle or minimize the tragedy this speaks of, only to suggest that its not the correct stat to use in make these sorts of decisions.


----------



## underthebluerug (Jan 26, 2004)

Just dropping by in passing to say that I can see validation in several of the (supposedly opposing) points of view represented here.

My brother and I were babysat as preschoolers by several 12- and 13-year-olds. NONE of them, looking back, should ever have been left in charge of young children. They were simply too immature for that kind of responsibility, and we were NOT appropriately cared for by any of them.

The only MALE babysitter of that lot (13 years old) sexually abused both my brother and me.

There ARE at least two young male teens today that I WOULD trust to babysit my children. Both are exceptionally mature with babysitter training, and both have toddler or preschooler siblings and seem to have an accompanying automatic protective instinct around little ones.

I was *never* taught that I had the right to define and enforce personal boundaries around being touched by others, particularly my elders. I feel strongly that it *would have helped me*, not only with the above betrayal but through the years as a schoolgirl and a teen during other situations when my boundaries were crossed in ways that made me intensely uncomfortable.

Whatever other decisions I make---on an individual basis---about whom I trust to watch over my children, I am making sure my kids have strong personal boundaries.

Just my two pence!


----------



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Wow, I feel oddly proud to have started one of those threads that just won't die!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I feel that the best thing I can do to protect my kids isn't keeping them away from people, but teaching them what's appropriate and what isn't, and teaching them to trust their instincts. I think teaching them that they don't have to hug grandma or kiss their uncle if they don't want to is more valuable than all the reference checks in the world. I also believe that if I hadn't received some of the sick messages from my grandmother that I did, I wouldn't have ended up being abused and keeping my mouth shut. I'm not blaming myself when I say that. I'm not blaming the victim when I say that educating the kids and teaching them to trust themselves is important. I don't get how you think that's blaming the victim in any way. If a child is taught that they have no right to say no - "you have to kiss grandpa" when the kid is crying because they don't want to - and said child ends up getting abused - maybe by the same person that they didn't want to kiss...then the child is blameless, but the person who taught them that they have no rights to their own body is _not_.

Exactly. I got into a tense situation with my SIL one time over this. An older (as in 40's/50's) was visiting from another country. Ds was about 2.5yo, and had never met him before. Ds at that age was a bit aloof with strangers, so this cousin was making a big deal about how he was going to make ds like him. I just kind of ignored it, but kept close by - not because I thought he was going to molest ds, but just because I felt like he was treating ds like a little puppy dog instead of a person, and ds wasn't talking yet. So at one point they were playing ball, and the cousin decided not to throw the ball back, and said to ds "If you want the ball back, you have to come give me a kiss." From my perspective, the whole planet stopped spinning. I was horrified someone would say that to a young child. I looked around at every single family member who was sitting right there, and no one seemed the least bit perturbed, while I meanwhile was having some bizarre out of body experience. Ds just looked at me, and in no way wanted to go give that guy a kiss. I turned to ds said "you don't have to give him a kiss to get your ball back, I'll go get it" and I walked over the cousin while saying this. I said it in what I hoped was a casual tone since the entire family was watching me, but inside I was freaked. Later SIL and I were talking about it, and I mentioned how I really didn't like it. She thought I was overreacting, and said that it's important to her to teach her dd to respect adults. I told her that I am all about ds being a respectful person, but that doesn't mean doing whatever someone else tells him to do, especially when it comes to his body. She looked at me like I was crazy and told me we'd just to go agree to disagree. I was floored.

Anyhow, I was raised to trust my instincts and have choice and power over whom I interacted with. (hmm, that's a grammatically awkward sentence) I hope to do the same for my children. Oddly, I'm not as bold about this as my parents were, and sometimes feel like I don't stand up enough for my kids. In fact, there is another thread along these lines that I think I want to start, because I'd love to discuss it further.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
She thought I was overreacting, and said that it's important to her to teach her dd to respect adults. I told her that I am all about ds being a respectful person, but that doesn't mean doing whatever someone else tells him to do, especially when it comes to his body. She looked at me like I was crazy and told me we'd just to go agree to disagree. I was floored.

How on earth is giving someone a kiss when you don't want to, in order to "earn" back a toy, showing respect?? What would she have said if the older cousin had said, "in order to get this money, you have to give me a kiss"?

Gross, yuck, disgusting. Why do people think it's okay to try to coax and bribe kisses out of children? If the kiss isn't a sign of open, honest, spontaneous affection, why do they even _want_ it??


----------



## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

As someone who was sexually abused by a female non-family member, to be honest I feel most comfortable with younger teens that our family can work with over a long period of time (I like to start out with mother's helpers, and as they prove trustworthy, work up to short babysitting gigs), and don't really care about gender so much as interest and a good match. I cannot ease my mind by just eliminating males from the pool.

For one thing, it ensures that ethically and legally I NEED to be present when they start out (maybe not always in the same room, but always available), and I have an opportunity for teaching/influencing how they behave (as opposed to a twentysomething/college student who isn't really willing to listen and who has more solid ideas about how things should go--not that that's bad, but it take more up-front work and time than I have to invest, honestly).

I do feel bad for my boys sometimes. They're growing up with a strong male role model of nuturing/direct care for children, since my husband is also a SAHP. I have seen some of the looks that my DH gets when he's out in public with the kids, and it does hurt to know that my boys will likely get the same. OTOH, I plan on teaching all my kids that there is a price to be paid very often for bucking the 'rules' of society, but that very often it's worthwhile.

Sometimes I get very frustrated with the concept that we DO want to raise our sons to be nuturing, sensitive, and respectful men--while at the same time blatantly saying that they should just put up and shut up while we treat them all like inevitable predators.


----------



## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

i wouldn't let anyone under 15 babysit...too much can happen


----------



## * guest * (Feb 22, 2007)

I don't think I would let a 13 year old boy babysit. Boys are not known for being gentle and plus I would be worried about his age and his gender. In fact, I don't even know if I would allow anyone to babysit. I know from my experience when I was little and frankly, I don't trust anyone but myself or my husband to take care of and watch my children.


----------



## bethy (Nov 10, 2005)

I haven't read all the responses.

I wouldn't hire a 13 year old to babysit for more than an hour or so and only if they were a family friend whom I knew well.

I would not hire a male caregiver no matter what. I'm not willing to take that risk in the interest of fairness.


----------



## Auelle (Sep 26, 2005)

Definately not....remember when you were 13....remember how the boys were at that age.


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't think 13 is old enough anyway, but to answer your question, most likely No, unless I knew him _extremely_ well. I am the mother of sons, so it's not my intention to assume all boys are molesters. But ime, many people don't raise their sons the way I'm sure many here are. I've heard too many stories of boys (who are now likely normal grown ups) molesting friends, acquaintances, neighbors. I think it is a far more common thing thans grown men who are pedophiles and who definitely know it is morally wrong and do it anyway. I think there's a lot of entitlement among young boys who might not fully realize what molestation is. Reading the Gift of Fear kind of confirmed that for me. Anyway, that's my opinion.


----------



## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

(I read only the OP)

i would NOT leave my children now or ever with a male babysitter.

but that is MY hangup and I am aware of that.

I also would not leave my kids with a 13 y/o. I think 16 is my age limit.

my neice is 17 and she regularly babysits for me.


----------



## Jennyfur (Jan 30, 2007)

Yes, I would leave my kids with a 13-year-old babysitter, male or female.

However, I would need to know the babysitter and his/her family fairly well.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I was molested by a male babysitter.

And my brother was mistreated by a female one.

I'd probably use a male babysitter.

Because I can tell you this for sure. The signs were there, if only my mother had not ignored and dismissed them. And there is the rub.

Too assume that my nephews would molest my children because they are boys is horredous. To ignore potential warning signs from a caregiver, because I REALLY want to go out or get going is also horrendous.

People put the responsibility not on themselves. So instead of using their minds, they cast an entire gender as unfit.


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Jeez louise, I don't believe in casting the entire gender as unfit. I believe in giving myself the best odds, should I be requird to use a sitter I didn't know well. That doesn't mean I'm not going to be careful with a female sitter, or carelessly ignore warning signs. I don't believe gender is the only thing worth considering. But I think it's worth taking into account. I'd feel foolish if I ignored that just because I want to believe that a young boy wouldn't do that. (And I know a lot who wouldn't. I'd let my nephews babysit, but then I know them extremely well.) I don't think I'll feel too bad if my son loses a future babysitting job to a female sitter. He'll get enough advantages. I'd feel bad if he were called a potential molester or something, but then I'm not seeing anyone calling all boys molesters.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Then I'd suggest not using any babysitters at all. Being a girl isn't a guarantee of good kid skills.

Actually, since they might be forced into being nurturing when it isn't their nature or maturity, you might be setting them up for working out their issues with your children. Girls are FAR better at the pretense of maturity, even when it is not so. They also tend to be assigned skills to them that they may not actually have based soley on their gender. Or given the benefit of the doubt, because people think girls just own nuturing.

If you would be unwilling to have a 13 year old boy babysit, you should also be unwilling to have a 13 year old girl babysit.


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Well I don't use a sitter. The question was a hypothetical. If you're talking to me, my first post on the previous page did say I thought 13 was too young. I also said (just up there) that I would use a boy I trusted, and would be careful for girls as well. The only difference is that I would _consider_ gender and be more careful with boys.

I only responded directly to you b/c no one has said boys are unfit, and frankly I think it's a little unfair to paint this cautiousness (based on reality and stats) as casting "the entire gender unfit". I also don't think girls are inherently more nurturing, I just think they are less likely to molest.

ETa: in general, I just don't understand why people feel so badly for men, lest they be thought of poorly. It doesn't hurt my husband's feelings if I'm more cautious around men in general. He understands why.


----------



## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I was sexually abused by men as a child and I would hire a male babysitter (in fact, I have). Not a 13yo, though--too young. I might be more likely to hire an adult male. Yes, it would be based on gut. I honestly never thought twice about this issue with the male sitters we've used (both are adults and friends of the family and one is also a dad). To me, they were no more likely to abuse my daughter than to smack her.

I think part of this discussion is this unspoken feeling so many women seem to have that men can't possibly be nurturing or genuinely interested in children, and that men are basically unfit for childcare--it's women's business by natural law. By this logic, a man who is naturally interested in children is believed to have a sexual motive. What an insult to men and to the future of parenting.


----------



## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

My daugher, has only been with a "baby-sitter" (besides grammy) once. He was male, my best friend's husband. It was for an hour.

My husband and I are trying to get out for a night sometime soon. One of the guys he works with has offered to watch our daughter. My husband knows him well, I don't get any "bad vibes", and this guy practically raised his baby sister.

I go with knowledge of the person, and whether I think they'd be capable of and willing to care for my daughter the way I do (or at least a close approximation).

13 is too young, imo, male or female. Otherwise, I'd not have a problem with it.


----------



## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

I have read every word of this entire thread from start to finish, and I am completely appalled and disappointed that the majority of posters don't seem to take child molestation very seriously.







The statistical reality that most child molesters are males is just a harsh fact about the society we live in, and acknowledging that statistically males pose more of a danger to our children is just common sense, not "discrimination."

I am shocked and saddened by all the posters who have tried to argue that sexual abuse is not common and pervasive.







: It a crime that takes place in secrecy and causes intense shame to its victims, so it is markedly underreported. If anything statistics relating to sexual abuse should be considered *under*estimates, not overestimates. (By the way, thank you to the posters who provided links to stats. Hopefully this dose of reality will open some posters' eyes to the fact that sexual abuse is happening all over all of the time to many, many children. Thus, we need to protect our children.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Statistically males are *much* more likely to sexually abuse. No, I would not leave my child with a male babysitter, with the exception of one or two men I trust. But generally, no. I'm sorry to say it, but it's the sad reality.

When men stop raping women and children, I will reconsider my position.

















:







Yes, I agree completely. I would never leave my son or daughter alone with a male caregiver unless he had proven over time to be exceptionally trustworthy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I understand that mamas of boys feel protective. It's interesting though that so many here are taking the position that it is as or more important that their boys not be assumed about based on their gender, than it is that my child not be sexually assaulted.

That to me is the mark of a misogynist culture.









Yeah, I really don't get all the posters who think their sons' hurt feelings over not being allowed to babysit are more important than the life-long, soul-destroying, suicide-inducing, all-encompassing pain that is caused by sexual abuse.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And no, I will not let my daughter play in homes where there are older boys or adult men hanging around. Not unattended, at any rate. And ftr, my partner isn't offended at the idea that he might be treated the same way by other girls' parents. He'd rather everyone feel comfortable than try to push some bogus "gender equality" issue. He knows how many women are dealing with a past that includes exploitative men and far be it from him to expect them all to give him a free pass automatically just because *he* knows he's a good guy.

IMO that's part of what makes a good guy--not wanting to push women's limits.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
ETa: in general, I just don't understand why people feel so badly for men, lest they be thought of poorly. It doesn't hurt my husband's feelings if I'm more cautious around men in general. He understands why.









Exactly! Real men aren't all insecure and bent out of shape by women being cautious around them. My brothers completely understand this. They rock!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
There is no 'prophecy' to fulfill. This is reality. I hardly think mamas sending our children out blindly is going to stop men from molesting girls and boy children. It hasn't so far. Men taking responsibility will stop it, nothing more and nothing less.









You put things so well, thismama. It's up to men. They need to stop molesting children. And the men who run the country need to make stiffer laws for child molesters. I vote for life-long imprisonment of child molesters. They are almost never rehabilitated, and they repeatedly molest dozens of children, so why should they ever be let out of prison?


----------



## Crazy Basil (May 22, 2006)

Wow. The attitude towards men and boys I've seen here lately, repeatedly, on several threads can only be described as paranoid and hysterical. It's disgusting and deeply saddening and truly makes me wonder how our boy children are going to be able to become the loving, caring and nurturing men that this world so desperately needs. Educate yourself, know yourself, know your children and use your instincts and gut to guide you to be safe? Please. Hide behind some book you read and statistics and facts that can be manipulated by anyone to say anything at all? Not so much.


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

That tone is really unnecessary. Paranoid and hysterical? Please. So you vehemently disagree. Fine. I am proudly raising boys, but I am raising them knowing full well just how sexist our world is. It is my aim not to judge them or view them as less, but to raise them to be men who are not just empathetic, decent human beings, but men who are fully aware their privilege in a patriarchy and who don't abuse it in any way, shape or form.


----------



## Crazy Basil (May 22, 2006)

No more vehement than the pages and pages of women writing off an entire gender. Paranoid and hysterical, yes, to me it is. It seems that people here lately have more love, compassion and understanding for their dogs than our fathers, brothers, sons, husbands, lovers and friends. That's extremely sad and upsetting to me as someone who is also trying to raise a boy who is sensitive, caring and understanding of the broader picture, who questions the status quo and who understands it is his duty as a recipient of privilege in this society to not stand idly by while others are discriminated against.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I can't believe this thread has come back. It raises & spreads so much antagonism and hysteria that I think it's more harmful than positive.

One can manipulate statistics to show whatever is wanted. Each situation and each individual is DIFFERENT. Yes, be aware. Be aware of everything in your life and your child's life but don't predicate all of your thoughts and actions based on fear. Be aware of the big dog down the street, be aware of the (un)registered sex offender in the neighborhood, be aware of the drunken teenager speeding down the street and be aware that some males are perverts waiting to burst out BUT please also be aware that not everything is as evil or destructive as one "perceives" it.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
Well I don't use a sitter. The question was a hypothetical. If you're talking to me, my first post on the previous page did say I thought 13 was too young. I also said (just up there) that I would use a boy I trusted, and would be careful for girls as well. The only difference is that I would _consider_ gender and be more careful with boys.

I only responded directly to you b/c no one has said boys are unfit, and frankly I think it's a little unfair to paint this cautiousness (based on reality and stats) as casting "the entire gender unfit". I also don't think girls are inherently more nurturing, I just think they are less likely to molest.

ETa: in general, I just don't understand why people feel so badly for men, lest they be thought of poorly. It doesn't hurt my husband's feelings if I'm more cautious around men in general. He understands why.

Being cautious about men is very different than thinking that all 13 year old boys are potential predators.

Not necessarily directed at this poster - there is some prevasive feelings on this board that demonize or put down "male" type behaviours. Such as finding competition to be negative. Thinking it is only cool to not promote gendered toys - yet the toys picked are intentionally generally associated with "girl" play. Or only "boy" play to girls, but not to boys. I'm not surprised by this thread. Disappointed, but not surprised.


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Well *shrug*. I don't see that here. I don't see poor boys and men being undermined here, or judged, or all viewed as predators.

Frankly I'm not surprised by this thread either.


----------



## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

I think 13 is too young to be left alone in charge of other people's kids. I would never have a male babysitter alone with my children either because I am a victim of sexual abuse and I would NEVER EVER forgive myself if something happened to my girls.

I would allow my m/w's almost 18 y/o son (second oldest of 8 children) ALONG with his teenage sisters to watch my kids for a few hours in their home but that is the ONLY exception.

To me leaving any child alone with any male caregiver is NOT smart. I know there are PLENTY of women predators (like my husband's birth mother) but I still feel it is safer to have a female babysit (the whole mothering/nurturing/more mature/level headed thing).

We only have a handful of people that we'd ever allow to watch our kids. A couple from our church with the same age children, a couple ladies from my APMoms group, a sweet couple in their 50's with grandkids (good friends we bought our house from and they still have 2 20+ y/o daughters still at home w/them), and then our very best friend (a female of course) who is now married and lives in TX.


----------



## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crazy Basil* 
No more vehement than the pages and pages of women writing off an entire gender. Paranoid and hysterical, yes, to me it is. It seems that people here lately have more love, compassion and understanding for their dogs than our fathers, brothers, sons, husbands, lovers and friends. That's extremely sad and upsetting to me as someone who is also trying to raise a boy who is sensitive, caring and understanding of the broader picture, who questions the status quo and who understands it is his duty as a recipient of privilege in this society to not stand idly by while others are discriminated against.

It is VERY OBVIOUS that you are not a victim of sexual abuse by a male.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Would that make her experiences and her opinions less valuable to you?
And, really, let's all please be careful judging other people. She may very well be a victim of sexual abuse. How horrible if we were to have to preface our comments w/this disclaimer! We should be able to talk freely w/o labeling ourselves and others.


----------



## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crazy Basil* 
No more vehement than the pages and pages of women writing off an entire gender. Paranoid and hysterical, yes, to me it is. It seems that people here lately have more love, compassion and understanding for their dogs than our fathers, brothers, sons, husbands, lovers and friends. ...

THAT is NOT something written by someone who has experienced sexual abuse from a male. If she was she'd have more compassion to us victims and would not be calling us paranoid and hysterical! I will vehemently stand by this statement.

So it is okay for her to judge us paranoid and hysterical for not leaving our children in the care of males because we want to protect them, but not for me to make an observation of her statement (from which I withheld my personal opinion of such statement)?

I will now withhold my opinion of you defending her.....


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I stand by everything I've said but I feel that this thread is moving into an area that should be in the "survivor's forum" and has veered waaaaay off topic.
So, b/c this is not the appropriate area for discussion, I'm bowing out!


----------



## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
.... your right to feel that only the opinions of those who have experienced sexual abuse are respected. ...

Where did I say that?


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

..


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

What is the big issue here? In my experience half my female friends were sexually abused as children.

By men.

Statistically, hiring a male childcaregiver is a big risk.

It is important to me that my daughter exit childhood without having to deal with this issue. VERY important. So I risk assess all men who are around her, and I would not have a male caregiver unless I really, really trusted him.

I really, really trust her father, and one male friend. That is it, so far.

"Sexist" or not, honestly I could give a crap. My priority is protecting my daughter, and all this giving of the benefit of doubt has not done the women of the world one whit of good so far.


----------



## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsElle07* 
Nope. Absolutely not.

You should read the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker... in it, he talks about one of the best ways you can avoid having your children become the victim of sexual abuse (which, unfortunately, something like 1 in 3 girls are) is to not allow them to have male caregivers. Most people are abused by someone their mother trusts.









Not to cast aspersions on this boy -- he is probably a lovely young man. I just think it's a wise policy to have.

You and Gavin DeBecker are both sexists. You dont generalize the whole gender based on the screwups of the few.


----------



## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
Hmm, I don't know the exacts stats (no one does apparently) but I would guess on any given day, you are more likely to have a car accident than be molested. Although I do believe molestation numbers are high.


I really don't know....in most cases, I'm pretty sure, it's not a just a one time deal. I would beg to differ with the above comment. I think that on a daily basis- that more children are being molested than are getting into car accidents.

I say to go with your gut. If there is ANY (and I cannot stress this enough) gut feeling that makes you say "something isn't right here" even if it's so small you barely feel it- then don't ( I repeat- DO NOT ) let your child alone -even if it's in the other room- with that person...male or female.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It is important to me that my daughter exit childhood without having to deal with this issue. VERY important. So I risk assess all men who are around her, and I would not have a male caregiver unless I really, really trusted him.

This makes no sense to me at all. I wouldn't have _any_ caregiver for my child unless I really, really trusted them. What the hell difference does gender make? Are we just supposed to assume that any woman who wants to watch our children is going to treat them well, but screen the males? I screen _everyone_ I leave my children with - gender is irrelevant.


----------

