# No Cry Sleep Solution Support Thread



## bizzylizzy (Dec 9, 2009)

I am getting ready to do the logging and then create a plan and implement soon. I am sure I'm going to need some support during this process and I'm wondering if anyone else is interested in a support thread.

My baby is 3 months, co-sleeping. Easily goes to bed at 7pm, the wakes frequently after midnight and is nursed back to "sleep." After midnight or so he is also in perpetual motion, moving, flailing, kicking. We have a queen bed so this is getting to be way too much.


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

Ooh - me! *waves hand wildly*

I picked this (well, the "for Toddlers and Preschoolers" version) up from the library on Wednesday and haven't even really had the chance to start reading it b/c of DD's sleep! She is 2.5, and sleeps fine once she *is* asleep, but getting her there is always a fight, and I can't take it anymore. For a while she would go down for her nap easy, and I could somewhat handle dealing with her at night (I have never had much patience for bedtime, which probably doesn't help), but then we went on vacation a few timezones over, and ever since it takes me almost an hour to get her down for her nap, and usually at least 2 hours to get her to sleep at night. On bad days, I may spend 4-5 hours waiting for her to fall asleep! I need help!


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

We use NCSS with DD when he was around 14 m old. It took awhile but it worked well. Honestly, I you are trying to use it too soon because your babe is still really in the newborn/infant phase. I think it works much later closer to one. I know it is really hard right now but at the age they really need unrestricted milk. That extra sucking whether for milk or for comfort is key to maintaining a good milk supply.


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## 1stBabyAt39 (Dec 23, 2008)

What exactly is the no cry sleep solution method? We're just starting sleep training for DD who just turned 1. She's been sleeping in our bed for the past few months (we let her sleep with us when she was sick, then she wouldn't sleep on her own after that!).

The method I'm trying is from the book "The Baby Whisperer" where you use the "PU/PD" (pick up / put down) method. Actually, since she's a year, we're just doing the put down part. When she stands up, you lay her back down & keep your hand on her back. That way she knows someone is there with her. I got her to sleep in about 25 minutes this way last night.

Then today, I was trying to put her down for a nap the same way. DH can't stand to hear her cry, so he came in & got her.







So now we've just taught her that mom is the bad guy trying to put her down, and if she cries long enough, dad will recue her.

I know he isn't deliberately trying to undermine me, but I'm so frustrated. I'm trying to make him realize that she needs to learn how to sleep on her own. The other day our doctor even told us not to wait any longer to put her to bed on her own.

Thanks for letting me vent! Grrr...


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

I just got this book and I am starting today with my 6 month old. He takes forever to get to sleep at night, wakes frequently (at which point I nurse back to sleep, whether he needs it or not) and has gotten very restless in the past week or so, making bed sharing impossible. He doesn't ever sleep in his crib anymore, and I was thinking it would be lovely if he could take his naps there and start the night there at least, but I know in my heart that long-term bed sharing is not for us.

So before I even read the book, I had decided to try what Pantley calls "The Travelling Crib." Today we sidecarred the crib to the bed in the baby's room, and I hope to get him used to sleeping in it that way as we continue cosleeping for a while before we add the 4th side and move it away from the bed. He is enjoying playing in the bed in its new arrangement today. I am also attempting to introduce a "lovey." So far so good.

The one thing that I cannot figure out how to get him to follow is the bed time routines that I have been trying to impose for a while now. We put on pajamas, brush teeth, read stories, turn out the light, and nurse, but if it is before 10:30pm, he WILL NOT SLEEP. Even then, he usually needs me to walk around with him in the mei tai until he falls asleep. I tried to follow the advice of giving him an earlier bedtime (bad me, skipping ahead of the plan), but that just prolongs the time it takes to get him down (so if we start at 8:30, it takes 2 hours, and at 7:30 it takes 3, etc.). But we'll have to try even earlier. Also, today he has not taken long enough naps, and I was unable to get him back to sleep as soon as he woke up from the naps, so this does not bode well for tonight.

Yesterday was my first log day. He napped for 3h20m, spread out over 4 naps (rather than the 2 naps of at least 60 minutes each) and he slept for 8h45m with only 4 awakenings for him (he woke me up much more often with his restlessness--I am hoping that the separate mattresses of the sidecar arrangement will help with this). So he was only 1-2 hours short on getting the sleep he needed. Today he has only had 1.5 hours of naps and is CRANKY.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1stBabyAt39* 
What exactly is the no cry sleep solution method?

You would have to have to read the book because there is too much to explain. (It's not just one method). I wanted to read "Baby Whisperer" because I had heard good things about it, but then I read reviews online and found that it didn't seem to be supportive of attachment parenting. NCSS gives lots of options to work with whatever your particular situation is (co-sleeping, crib sleeping, or transitioning from one to the other as you and I seem to be doing).


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## bizzylizzy (Dec 9, 2009)

Soooo just getting the logging going tonight. Had a set back with the heat wave her in the PNW...had to sleep in the guest room in the basement for a few days and things were too weird down there to log properly.

I'm chewing on how I feel about the sucking to sleep association. My baby is a pacifier user. I always nurse him down but replace with the pacifier to sleep. It is such a good soothing agent (as is nursing) I'm really unhappy to have to give it up.

Any thoughts out there?


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

So I finally got to read some of this, and I think it will help. Though, right now, DD hasn't had a nap in 3 days







I don't think it has anything to do w/ NCSS, though (the first day was before I started reading/trying anything). During the week, DD & I do a lot (playground, Little Gym, beach, museum) in the mornings, but DH doesn't like to go out if he doesn't have to, and especially not with DD, so we mostly just sit around on the weekends. I did get her out for a walk early yesterday morning before it got too hot, but it's not as much activity as I try to have her get. On Friday, I think she would have napped, except she was in that about-to-fall-asleep phase right as we got home, so she woke up getting into the house & got her 2nd wind.

At the very least, we've been getting her to sleep earlier on the no-nap days, as opposed to previously when we'd try to do bedtime at usual time (worried if she went to sleep early, she'd be up early), at which point she was way over tired and would take just as long or longer to get to sleep. The past few nights, with starting bedtime early (6:30 the first day, she was asleep by 7:15. The second day she was much more tired, we kept her up as long as we could, reading & went for a walk in her stroller - already had a bath & in jammies. The second it looked she was trying to get a little active, I took her in her room and we read a last story. That was right at 6, she was out cold by 6:30. Wow. I literally just got chills reading over that - didn't really hit me until I wrote it out!!), she's been asleep inside an hour, which is soooo nice. Hopefully today, when we will be on a more normal schedule, she'll take a nap. She got just shy of 12 hrs last night, so a 1.5 or so hr nap would give her the recommended sleep time for the day. And yes, I know that some kids give up their naps by now, but given how tired she is in the afternoon, I *really* don't think she's ready for that. And even if she is, *I* am not ready for it, so at the very least she need to learn to hang out quietly in her room without me for an hour or so.

For a PP who asked what the method is, I don't know that I'd really call it a method (though I've not finished it yet, so maybe there will be some of that in the next part?). So far, there's just sort of general information that would help anyone who's having trouble sleeping (consistent sleep/wake times, a bedtime routine, keeping bed only for sleep, teaching kids how to fall asleep, etc.) and then the next section gives more targeted ideas for specific issues (night/early waking, bad dreams, dealing with daylight savings time, etc.).


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bizzylizzy* 
I'm chewing on how I feel about the sucking to sleep association. My baby is a pacifier user. I always nurse him down but replace with the pacifier to sleep. It is such a good soothing agent (as is nursing) I'm really unhappy to have to give it up.

Any thoughts out there?

Honestly, at 3 months, I would try it, but also wouldn't push it yet - and this is coming from someone who is dying to get her toddler off of one! At around 9 mo (I think - it's been a while so I might be a little off) there was a window where I really think it would have been super easy to get DD off of it. We didn't, because DH wanted her to have it to help with teething & was really adamant about it, but if you just keep an eye on it, you may find a natural spot to sort of discourage it's use. As young as your lo is, though, I'm sure she still needs lots of sucking, so if she can't get it from the boob, it probably is helping her.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bizzylizzy* 

I'm chewing on how I feel about the sucking to sleep association. My baby is a pacifier user. I always nurse him down but replace with the pacifier to sleep. It is such a good soothing agent (as is nursing) I'm really unhappy to have to give it up.

Any thoughts out there?

First of all, I want to say that you don't have to do anything in this book that you feel is not right for your family, BUT pacifiers are addressed on page 125 in my copy and tips are given for how to make it easier for a baby to find them and self soothe on his own. At three months, yours is probably too young, but don't give it up now and maybe later it will be a good tool.

Okapi, I'm sorry you are dealing with no naps, but at least she got to sleep earlier and stayed asleep!

As for me, my DS usually gets the required 3-4 hours of naps, but he spreads them out over several naps instead of 2 long ones. Last night, he finally got his nap hours in before 10pm. That meant that despite getting him asleep at 8:30, he was up from 10-midnight. But I slept better with the side car arrangement. DS did all right, but still needs to warm up to it.


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## penguintattoo (Oct 14, 2008)

Can I join? I just read the book last night and I like a lot of what she is saying, but I have a couple questions I'm hoping someone can help me with. I rock DD to sleep for her naps and for bed, its actually fairly quick and I dont mind doing it, she takes 2-3 decent sized naps so thats not a problem either. Our biggest problem is she wakes up way to much at night and the only way to get her back to sleep is to nurse her! In the book it basically says to use the Pantley Pull Off method right? Is that the only suggestions she has for getting the baby to sleep longer? I think I missed something but can't figure out what can someone please help me!


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *penguintattoo* 
Can I join? I just read the book last night and I like a lot of what she is saying, but I have a couple questions I'm hoping someone can help me with. I rock DD to sleep for her naps and for bed, its actually fairly quick and I dont mind doing it, she takes 2-3 decent sized naps so thats not a problem either. Our biggest problem is she wakes up way to much at night and the only way to get her back to sleep is to nurse her! In the book it basically says to use the Pantley Pull Off method right? Is that the only suggestions she has for getting the baby to sleep longer? I think I missed something but can't figure out what can someone please help me!

This is what I've got written down:
- Don't respond too quickly/wait until he wakes. It is true that for a while I was putting my breast in his mouth as soon as he woke me up because it was the easiest way to get him back to sleep. But I realized myself that he wasn't always awake when I was doing this (in fact, once I tried to feed him after I woke up from a bad dream and I couldn't figure out why he wouldn't latch until I realized that he was still asleep!) so it's best not to get into the habit of feeding when they don't need it. I do find that if I let him fully wake though, he will get worked up, and he is REALLY active now, so when he starts to stir now, I will put my hand on him to comfort him (twice now, I have found he felt cold, so I pulled him closer to snuggle, and he went back to sleep without fully waking and/or needing to nurse).
- Use key words and pat (see above)
- Use the Pantley Pull-off method as needed
- Scoot away from baby when he falls asleep (I'm not even sure where that suggestion came from, but I think it has something to do with removing the milk supply so he doesn't feel the need to wake up and nurse.

Besides that, other suggestions include making sure baby gets enough to eat during the day and making sure that the room is dark at night (a big issue this time of year--we had to install curtains) and bright during the day.

Does that help at all?


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## penguintattoo (Oct 14, 2008)

Yes thank you! I try to get her to eat often during the day but she is very distractable and somedays she only eats maybe 3 times during the day, I know thats not enough so I feel bad refusing her at night when she wakes. I probably am responding to soon though so I'll wait and see if she really needs me or not.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

I wish for once he would go to sleep at the end of our bedtime routine. How is he supposed to make the connection that it leads to sleep if he never sleeps at the end of it?


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

Heads up, I'm sort of using this as a log, it may not be of interest to anyone else!

So last night and this morning were pretty much a study in what *not* to do...

I had a soccer game last night, but not until after 7, so we decided to go ahead and start the process around 5:30, hoping she would fall asleep before I left. She was definitely tired, and I think if I could have stayed another 10 minutes, she would have been fine (she had to go potty, and it seems like it's often easier for her to fall asleep right after that), but I had to leave, so DH came in and sat w/ her. He said she was almost asleep in 10-15 minutes, and then the dog started whining. So he lets the dog out, thinking he had to go, but instead, the dog just continued whining, this time right outside DD's window







(The dog is old, and loosing hearing & vision, which I think freaks him out, and on top of that our house & outside area are both tiny, so there's no where to put him where he won't bother DD if he happens to have his freak out when we're trying to get her to sleep.) So then it's another 20 minutes after that before DD falls asleep. Still, by my reckoning, she was asleep by 8 (DH couldn't remember the exact time), which for her is pretty good.

Then this morning... we've decided we'll start getting up at 6, making noise, going about our day, and the couple times we've tried that, she's woken up soon after. This morning, she's wakes me up shuffling around at like 10 til 6. I think, "there's no way I can possibly get myself out of bed right now, I'll lay here and relax until the alarm goes off." Next thing I know, it's 7 (and the only reason I woke up then was b/c she woke up). So much for that. Lesson learned - the alarm has to go on the dresser away from the bed (I had turned it down and don't remember it at all - just too beat from playing last night). My plan had been to take her to the museum, but it doesn't open until 10, so we'd get downtown early and wander around, so by 10 she would be perfectly happy with 45 min or so of museum time and we could get back early for her nap (ideally, she'd fall asleep in the car on the way home). Instead, we don't get there until after it opens, and she hasn't already done a bunch of other stuff, so we spend an hour+ there, then she needs to eat, and by the time we get home, it's almost 1. So we had some quiet time with her in her bed and me sitting next to her in the chair, but no nap.

So I guess the plan now is to take her to the park until it's time for our CSA pickup (4:30 - need to see if there's a day we could pick up earlier), then by the time we get back from that, it'll be time to start the bedtime routine and she hopefully will be tired enough to go to sleep fairly easily. Then we can get the day started earlier tomorrow (playgoup is doing a beach day, so wearing her out shouldn't be a problem!), and go from there. Of course, I have another game Thursday night, but that will be the last one for the summer season, and in the fall they're during the day, so there won't be an issue there.

TL;DR: Last night/this morning didn't go so well, but I'm hoping we can get back on track tonight!


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 
I wish for once he would go to sleep at the end of our bedtime routine. How is he supposed to make the connection that it leads to sleep if he never sleeps at the end of it?

Success!

Although he is probably only down for a nap (it was another bad napping day) and will probably be up in less than an hour...


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## bizzylizzy (Dec 9, 2009)

Congrats NSmomtobe!

Well....here are am finally logging and I think we hit a growth spurt and developmental milestone. Simon rolled over yesterday and has been nursing every 1-2 hours and sleeping almost non-stop inbetween. It's a little demoralizing to look at the log and see (nap, nurse, nap, nurse, sleep, wake, nurse, sleep, wake, nurse) every hour to 2. I know it's temporary but wouldn't you know it! I know month three is growth spurt time, and tomorrow could be totally different but still.

Also for all of you dealing with the light issue with the summer time...we invested in some black out shades from IKEA. Everyone is sleeping better and going to sleep faster and staying asleep longer. Highly recommended.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Apparently early to bed = early to rise for my kid. And apparently he only needs 8 hours of sleep/night? The good news is that he slept for a 5 hour stretch last night! Then when he woke at 6, I was able to keep him quiet and confined to the crib until 7, when I handed him off to DH to watch as he was getting ready for work. I went back to sleep until 8 (our usual waking time), when DH gave him back to me and I nursed us both to sleep until 8:45. Now it's 10:45 and I'm still trying to get him to take his 10:00 nap.


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## 128375 (Jan 30, 2009)

can I join? I haven't read thru the thread. but i'm a new mama to a 6mth old who just transitioned to the crib. I have a question. When I put my baby in the crib when he's tired he's pretty rowdy and rambunctious; he just crawls around, tries to climb the rails and fusses. If I try to walk away he breaks out into a wail. The only way he'll go to sleep is if he's fully asleep in my arms or if I wear him down in his ergo carrier or if I nurse him down (which I am eliminating with Pantley Pull Off). I've tried singing and rocking in the chair and baths at night but ultimately he's has to be asleep before I can lay him in the crib. So how do I get him to be relaxed enough to lay sleepy in his crib so he can fall asleep in it on his own.

I am starting my sleep log tonight.


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## bizzylizzy (Dec 9, 2009)

We had a good night on Tuesday...early to bed, 3 wakings with right back to sleep. Last night....ugggh! He went to bed early but after about 2 am, he was up every hour thrashing around and wanting to nurse. The thrashing is what's getting to me. I soooo have to get on the cosleeper situation. Anyone else have a cosleeping thrasher?


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## akayerich (Jun 1, 2008)

I'll join you ladies, too. I just read NCSS for Toddlers and Preschoolers. I have an almost 18 month DS who can't fall asleep without major help from us. Untill about 15 months I'd nurse him to sleep, but at some point he stopped getting sleepy when nursing. So then DH started holding/rocking him while listening to quiet music, and that worked really well for a while. But now, it takes sometimes 2ish hours of rocking/holding/etc, and it just seems to be getting more and more out of control. Then, once he's asleep, he usually wakes up 1-2 times per night, which is acceptable as long as he goes back to sleep easily. But sometimes it takes a few hours to get him back to sleep.

After reading the book, I've identified some of our problems. Too late of a bedtime, causing a second wind. Inconsistant bedtimes, naptimes, and wake-up times. Too much activity and bright light late in the day. Sticking with a routine that just doesn't work for us- we were doing a bath as part of the routine, but I realized that the bath just seems to refresh his energy instead of relax him. I think his waking at night is sometimes because he pees and that wakes him up. We've been ECing for a few months now, so he's very aware of his urination now and loves using the potty and hates being in a wet diaper now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *preciousstone* 
can I join? I haven't read thru the thread. but i'm a new mama to a 6mth old who just transitioned to the crib. I have a question. When I put my baby in the crib when he's tired he's pretty rowdy and rambunctious; he just crawls around, tries to climb the rails and fusses. If I try to walk away he breaks out into a wail. The only way he'll go to sleep is if he's fully asleep in my arms or if I wear him down in his ergo carrier or if I nurse him down (which I am eliminating with Pantley Pull Off). I've tried singing and rocking in the chair and baths at night but ultimately he's has to be asleep before I can lay him in the crib. So how do I get him to be relaxed enough to lay sleepy in his crib so he can fall asleep in it on his own.

I am starting my sleep log tonight.

There's something in the toddler/preschooler book called the Pantley Dance, which is supposed to help with your situation. Does she have that in the infant version? If not, let me know and I can describe it for you. We have a similar problem with our older baby and are probably going to try using that method.


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

We've been doing pretty well here! Yesterday I took DD downtown again (after waking up on time, lol), and after all the walking around, we didn't even make it to the museum. She wanted to go "in the ellagator" (take the elevator in the parking garage to the car) and she was asleep inside of 10 minutes (by 11). She did wake up from her nap early (diaper leak) but I had a soccer game in the evening, and she went to sleep just fine for DH (that is huge for us - we've always had trouble before when DH had to be the one to get her down)!

Only downside - yesterday & the day before she was up at 5:20 & 5, respectively. That just feels so early to me.







Today we got up to the alarm, though (didn't want to - I was exhausted, and that was after going to sleep before 9:30!) I'm interested to see how today goes. She has a gym class at 10:45 (usual one is at 9:15), so it won't be over until 11:30. Hopefully she'll fall asleep on the way home again, if not, it may end up being a no-nap day. But I'm finding I can handle those a little better when she's going to sleep earlier.

I will say, part of me questions planning our whole day around her sleep (and dinner is suffering, I can't seem to get it done if I try to get her outside in the afternoon, so we've been doing leftovers/extra quick stuff), but honestly, it is so much less stressful for me then spending 4-5 hours sitting in the rocking chair and trying to keep my cool while she refuses to sleep! And I'm sure that as we get into a routine, it will be easier/less intrusive. I think I'm going to try to get her out right after her nap, then hang out at home late afternoon, rather then hanging out after the nap & running to the park later. Probably not today, though, with the late class.


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## Geigerin (May 7, 2009)

Ooh! I'd love to join! I'm picking up my reserved copy at the library today. Maddy is 4 1/2 months, and I do still nurse on demand, but she is currently only sleeping around 6-8 hours at night and only naps occasionally. I need help!

Will report back tomorrow.


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## 128375 (Jan 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *akayerich* 
There's something in the toddler/preschooler book called the Pantley Dance, which is supposed to help with your situation. Does she have that in the infant version? If not, let me know and I can describe it for you. We have a similar problem with our older baby and are probably going to try using that method.

No I haven't seen anything like that. What is the pantley dance? and one more question - for anyone... or maybe this is what the pantley dance is supposed to cover... but, exactly how do I know when it's ok to lay baby in crib. As soon as I lay him down he fusses and wakes right back up.

thanks.


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## akayerich (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *preciousstone* 
No I haven't seen anything like that. What is the pantley dance? and one more question - for anyone... or maybe this is what the pantley dance is supposed to cover... but, exactly how do I know when it's ok to lay baby in crib. As soon as I lay him down he fusses and wakes right back up.

thanks.

I just went looking for it again and realized its in the No Cry Nap Solution. Yes, we checked out that one too- we need all the help we can get







This is going to be long- I'm trying to paraphrase.

Anyway, it's a way of kinda weaning your baby from needing to be held to fall asleep. Basically, first you hold him as usual and let him get really sleepy. For the first few times, wait until he's almost ready to drift off.

Then start humming softly, shushing, and jiggling/rocking him for a few minutes. Then stop and be very still for a few minutes. Then go back to the humming/shushing and jiggling/rocking. Keep alternating the movement/sound and the quiet/stillness for a bit and keep doing it while you carry him to his bed.

As a side note, she says some babies do better if you keep humming the whole time and alternate the movement and the stillness. I guess you should just experiment and see what works best. Also, use the same song or sush each time you put him to sleep so he recognizes it.

Once you get to the bed, it's time to put him down. Do this by first letting his feet touch the mattress, then pause. Then slowly move the rest of his body down on to the mattress. Keep humming while you're doing it. After he's laying down, put your free hand on his chest and then pull the other hand out from under him. While still humming, alternate patting him on his chest or jiggling him a little with being still. Then remove your hand and gradually decrease the volume of your humming. If he wakes up later, try just putting your hand on him and patting him and humming the same song to see if it settles him.

The idea is that you can gradually start the "Dance" earlier and earlier, before he's almost completely asleep. Pantley says eventually you can even start the routine when he's still wide awake, and he will associate it with sleeping and go to sleep much easier.

I think she intended this method to be for babies who will only sleep while being held, not just babies who can't be put down until they're asleep. But I can see it maybe working for either situation. I haven't tried it yet, though.


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *preciousstone* 
but, exactly how do I know when it's ok to lay baby in crib. As soon as I lay him down he fusses and wakes right back up.
thanks.

I read somewhere (Dr Sears, maybe) that a good test is to lift their arm an inch or so and drop it. If your LO doesn't stir, they're probably deep enough asleep to be put down. We tried it, and it worked most of the time. Plus, if I tried it and she wasn't quite asleep, it didn't usually wake her up all the way.


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## hrsmom (Jul 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bizzylizzy* 
Soooo just getting the logging going tonight. Had a set back with the heat wave her in the PNW...had to sleep in the guest room in the basement for a few days and things were too weird down there to log properly.

I'm chewing on how I feel about the sucking to sleep association. My baby is a pacifier user. I always nurse him down but replace with the pacifier to sleep. It is such a good soothing agent (as is nursing) I'm really unhappy to have to give it up.

Any thoughts out there?

The way I understood it, having them fall asleep with a pacifier is only a problem if they fully wake up and notice it's not there and need you to put it back in. So I'd try it and see. If it's a problem, then you'll have your answer.







Hope for the best!!!


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## hrsmom (Jul 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 
Success!

Although he is probably only down for a nap (it was another bad napping day) and will probably be up in less than an hour...

I'm glad you had success! I actually gave up trying to have a routine because it was frustrating to me that my kiddo didn't know she was supposed to fall asleep at the end of it, like you said in your previous post.







I probably gave up too soon! (ETA) Sleep deprivation and infinite patience do not necessarily go together!







I just went back to having her go to bed when she was ready, and that was OK for us.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm back, with only hit and miss successes.

bizzylizzy - I also have an very active cosleeper, and it is one of the reasons I knew something had to change. Not only was it hard for me to sleep while being kicked constantly, but I was worried about him falling out of bed. We side-carred the crib so that now he is contained on 3 sides by bars and one side by me to eliminate my fear of him falling (and not a moment too soon--he is EVERYWHERE in that crib) and I can nurse him on the edge of the crib and then move away from him and not have to deal with his thrashing.

preciousstone - The side-car is my solution for getting him used to the crib because before we did that, he would never sleep in the crib. However, I still haven't figured out how to get him to sleep there without nursing him to sleep or taking him out of the mei tai fully asleep. I am trying to convince myself it is only a matter of time though. Soon we will have to put up the 4th wall because the other 3 will not be enough to hold him. He is 6 months and thrashes around as you described as well.

Okapi, I also have a very hard time planning my day around his sleep. I also have a hard time getting him to sleep when I have planned for him to sleep, so it sounds like you are ahead there.

akayerich - Thank you for describing the Pantley Dance. I have both problems--he needs to be held during naps and I cannot transfer him to the crib when he is asleep. I tried to do something similar last night when he woke up 15 min after I had last nursed him to sleep so I didn't want to nurse him again. I managed to rock him to sleep, but then I couldn't put him down without him screaming, so I ended up nursing him in the end anyway. But I really do need to expand my repertoire.

hrsmom - Well, that was the only time the bedtime routine really worked. However, I have found that after I finish reading to him and nursing him, if I let him play in his crib until he gets overtired and fussy (about 30 min), I can usually nurse him to sleep at that point.


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## mama09 (Jul 19, 2010)

Hello! So glad to have found this, and would love to join in. I just finished reading the NCSS tonite, after 5 months of reading it here and there in desperate times.

Many previous posts speak to issues we're having, so I'll just try to touch on them. First-- the good news! Re-reading (and finishing) the book made me realize how much progress we have made without really trying very hard! My son is now 10 months old, and it's hard to remember what was making me
nuts 5 months ago... but I think it was him always wanting my nipple in his mouth all night, and the aches and pains in my body from sleeping in contorted positions. And the hours it took to get him really asleep. I did adopt the Pantley Pull-off, and started a bedtime routine, and was feeling lame that that was about all I did. But now I can see that the PPO has eliminated his constant suckling, for a long while now. He does roll over often and sleeps in his own space (we co-sleep in a queen bed, so it is a bit tight.) The bedtime routine helped a lot, too. We timed it to begin right after our dinner (we eat at 6pm, then bathe him, maybe read if he's alert, and then hopefully to bed around 7-7:30.)

Now that he's older, we have a new set of challenges, of course. Reading the book again, I clarified for myself that the night wakings are OK with me, as he doesn't really wake me up. I just nurse him for a brief moment, and he's back asleep. Unless he's teething or has gas, of course...

My main issues these days are:
**DS needs me and my nipple for every waking in the hours between his bedtime and mine. I sometimes stay up til midnite, but get frustrated nursing him every 45 minutes (or more often if some noise wakes him). Because I have set up the nursing to sleep habit, I haven't asked hubby to help. That can cause resentment when my whole evening is about getting DS back to sleep.

**Wondering if we need to start bedtime even earlier, as for several weeks seems like DS is manic at bedtime, and it can take hours to calm him. I think he misses his sleepy window while we are eating dinner, and is into his 2nd and 3rd wind with these long summer days (and sometimes fewer naps, as we are out and about more). I'm afraid I'll never get to eat dinner again if I try to start putting him down before dinner.

**Trying to teach DS to sleep in a pack n play for naps, so he is safe and I can move around. He has napped in my lap for much of his life, and then in our bed (before he could roll), and now often in the car as I time our outings for his nap time. But when I'm home, I need to start being able to get things done while he's sleeping, and he is too active to be in our bed alone. It has been a luxury to let him sleep in my lap, and I admit I'm reluctant to let life take over again, but really I need to shower and make baby food and maybe even (gasp) make a phone call now and then. Not to mention make some money. The lowering all the way into the pack n play (we don't have a crib and are living in a small yurt for the summer) nearly always wakes DS, and if I try it 2-3 times in one nap, he'll wake completely and skip the nap. Frustrating. I'm trying to practice, but in the end, I usually wish I'd just let him sleep in my lap.

**Wondering if it's possible to teach him to put himself back to sleep when he startles during naps or in the early evening sleep hours, while still being OK with nursing him in the night. Kind of confusing signals, I guess.

Always wanting the short term gain of sleep NOW, I have been very reluctant to enact the long-term plan outlined in the NCSS. So far, DS will not EVER be soothed by patting or keywords. Nipple only, or he ramps up and wakes.

Any further tips on lowering into pack n play (which seems different than the hip height of a crib), or real-life success stories of soothing to sleep without the nipple are very welcome!

Thanks for reading this LOOOOONG post! I've been needing input on this!


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## akayerich (Jun 1, 2008)

So we've been doing our new routine and earlier bedtime for a week, and already it seems to be working. DS has been going to sleep in less than 1/2 hour. Now our problem is that he's waking up more at night and wanting to play instead of just going back to sleep with our help. The last 2 nights have been terrible. This pattern started at the same time we started the early bedtime, so I'm starting to think maybe bedtime has been a little *too* early. Maybe he wakes up and thinks he just took a late nap, so he's ready to play. So tonight we did bedtime a 1/2 hour later. I guess we'll see what happens.

mama09-
It's probably still a little early for this at 10 months, but if you're still having the same issues when he's over a year old, you might try night-weaning by Dr. Jay Gordon's method. With his method, you pick certain hours that you want him to not breastfeed. I guess for most people, the idea is to wean him during the hours that you most want to sleep, but you could always choose the hours that he's in bed but you're still awake. He doesn't recommend trying it before baby is at least a year old, though. We did it at 15 months and it worked really well. Here's a link you can read about it, if you don't already know. http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

The only other thought I had for you was that if you suspect that he needs an earlier bedtime, you should try it. Maybe do dinner a little earlier if you can. We were having major issues getting DS to go to sleep and like I said above, we started doing a routine and putting him to bed much earlier and it's been working really well. Except for the night waking part, but we're working on that!


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *akayerich* 
Now our problem is that he's waking up more at night and wanting to play instead of just going back to sleep with our help. The last 2 nights have been terrible. This pattern started at the same time we started the early bedtime, so I'm starting to think maybe bedtime has been a little *too* early.

My DD also did the the first 3 or 4 nights. Not so much the playing around, but she woke up enough to wake me up probably 6+ times, which for her is unusual (esp if she's in the bed w/ me). Usually she wakes up once a night, I move her into bed w/ me, and she sleeps the rest of the night. We just stuck w/ the schedule and within a couple of days, she was back to the 1 wake/night.

Night time has still be going pretty well. The couple times it hasn't gone well were times *we* (in retrospect) made it harder for her. One night DH got home late, so dinner was late, so even though I knew she was tired, I didn't start bedtime right away (it was right as dinner was ready to be served). I thought (hoped) that if we just kept her calm it would be OK, but she still managed to get that 2nd wind. Another night, DH took her to the store with him (early enough that we didn't think it would interfere). She was clearly tired when he brought her in, but I didn't see that part. I just saw them walking in and DH saying "I told her she could have her lollipop." So needless to say, that night did not go well.

The trouble we're having is with naps. I used to give her up to 2 hours to fall asleep for her nap (if I could tell she was really tired), but we've decided to do no longer then an hour, and she often is just not falling asleep in that time. It's like she knows that she's not going to have to hold out as long, so she's more determined to power through, KWIM? I still haven't read the section on more specific ideas for different problems, though, and I'm pretty sure there was a nap section in there. Will have to check that out today!

Although, thinking about it, the rain we had recently didn't help (wasn't getting her out as much) and when I have gotten her out, it may just not have been early enough. The few days we've gotten up and gone right out, it worked great. The trouble is getting her on board with that! She will often say she wants to go out, but then actually getting her dressed/ready can be a long process, unless there's something she is really excited about. Today we have a makeup for her Little Gym class which isn't until 10:45 (her usual is a lot earlier), so I think I'm going to go into it assuming she won't be getting a nap today (she didn't last time she did this class).

Once we have her schedule worked out, I want to work on getting her to fall asleep without me right there.


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## bizzylizzy (Dec 9, 2009)

So we have finally established a good going to sleep routine and he is going to sleep easily and staying soundly asleep until he's hungry, wakes, nurses and then easily goes back to a deep sleep until about 2. Last night i was nursing him every 1/2 hour between 2:30 and 4:30!!! I'm trying to institute the "night diaper". We use Fuzzy Bunz and I added an extra liner...this has worked well without any leaks for the past few nights but last night by 3am he'd breached the dam. I thought that would explain the thrashing but even after changing him he was still sleepy but thrashing. Ideas? For the night diapering too. What do you all do. If he wasn't nursing so much he'd obviously stay drier.

I was successfully able to move him to the cosleeper for a two naps yesterday. I'm trying to slowly get him used to it. Has anyone else noticed how awfully thin the mattress is on that thing? After sleeping in the family bed with a real mattress I kinda doubt he's super excited to sleep on a piece of cardboard. I need him to like the cosleeper so I don't have to deal with the thrashing every night!

We aren't instituting our "big" plan until he's officially 4 months and after we have some visitors leave. But the small things I've done....making the room dark, instituting a blankey for sleeping, and routine are all good things. It's those early morning wakings and thrashings that have got to go!


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## akayerich (Jun 1, 2008)

Okapi-
Thanks for the encouragement by telling me that you had the same problem with more frequent waking the first few nights of the new earlier routine. It seems like my DS will get better now, too. Last night was much better than the night before. He still woke up more than he used to, but at least he was super-easy to put back to sleep.

It's funny, our problem seems to be changing to naps now, too. We've NEVER had a problem with naps. But yesteday and today he's flat out refused to go to sleep for his one nap. Weird. I'm thinking his body is just working out the kinks and getting used to the new sleep habits, and hopefully things will settle down soon.
Our next big thing will also be teaching him to sleep without being rocked by DH till he's completely asleep. I think that step will be much harder.

Bizzylizzy-
Do you ever use wool covers? I've found that the only thing that works for us at night is a fitted diaper with a heavy-duty doubler (we use one with a fleece stay-dry liner) and an Aristocrat wool cover. We never have leaks, even on his wettest nights. My problem with the whole night-diapering thing is that I'm afraid that even though he doesn't leak, the wet diaper keeps him awake, but if I change him, that seems to wake him up even more.

I had the same issue with the cosleeper mattress. I couldn't believe how plasticy and thin it was. I ended up making something that was a lot softer but still firm enough for a small baby. I just got a piece of wood that was the right size and wrapped it in cotton batting untill it seemed thick and soft enough and then wrapped some wool felt around that. You could probably use any kind of fabric for the outer layer, I just happened to have the wool on hand and liked that it would be kind of waterproof. I made sure the outer layer was taut so it would stay firm. It worked well and seemed comfy enough untill he got bigger and seemed to need a real mattress.


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