# Yelling as bad as spanking?



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Hi, mamas:

I just read an article on MSN that yelling could be worse than spanking. The link is here: http://family.msn.com/tool/article.a...fer=2&GT1=6356

I don't yell (other moms could tell me -- not yet) because my son is only 19 mos. old and exhibiting normal toddler behavior.

He's also more easygoing than most, and I'm benefiting from sympathizing with him when he's upset and taking deep breaths when I get a bit frustrated.

Do you Mamas think yelling is as bad as spanking? Sometimes I think the words my mom has yelled to me are actually worse than the spankings because they still hurt.

Just wanted to start a friendly discussion. I thought the ideas in the article to stop yourself from yelling were pretty good.

Cheers,


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

I just read that too... I dunno...I think they're both bad. The article kind of alluded to yelling hurting emotionally and spanking hurting physically. I think they both hurt emotionally....but IMO spanking is worse. I can apologize for yelling...and show how we should work through our anger...but hitting is never ok... I'm rambling...sorry.







Good thread...I hope it doesn't turn into something other than you wanted.







You know how passionate we mommas can be.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think it can be. I think the spectrum of both yelling and corporal punishment are both pretty big as far as how damaging either can be.

In my family, I think a little yelling is less harmful than a little spanking.

The other thing about yelling that has always confused me is the issue of parental temperament. For instance, DH kina yells as a normal way of speaking. When debating or just excited about something. For him to 'raise his voice' at DC doesn't seem like it would be all that damaging because it's not much of a deviation from how he normally communicates. I, OTOH, am a very level talker and keep my cool well. If I even sigh heavily DC gets upset because, that means I'm upset.

Also, I think all kinds of abuse can be 'worse' than the next depending on the severity, yk?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I read the article (after I posted the first time :LOL)

The first think that it reminded me of is the situation in Sweden when they banned spanking and how parents initially had a more difficult time managing frustration.

Overall I like the article. I love that they not only address an issue but offer solutions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira*
Do you Mamas think yelling is as bad as spanking? Sometimes I think the words my mom has yelled to me are actually worse than the spankings because they still hurt.

The article also addressed the issue of yelling as a means to degrade children and other messages in your language as opposed to a raised voice. I, personally, appreciate the distinction.

See, I have a difficult time communication to DD that I'm getting upset. What seems to work is if I tell her I'm getting upset and why in a stern or "raised voice". I think this is much different than yelling degrading things to a child.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Good point, IdentityCrisis. There are some people whose decibel levels are normally high. There are also some children who are more fragile and fall apart when you yell at them whereas it doesn't bother others at all.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yes and the child’s temperament is a big factor, good point!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

I'm Polish, my husband is Italian/Croatian,in both of our families yelling was normal. In my family, it was abusive because of WHAT they yelled, in DH's family it was typically Italian, they would wave their hands around frantically and spit and stuff and talk VERY loudly when they where upset or angry,but they didn't generally insult each other. I think yelling can be a cultural thing and isn't always dangerous at all, or the whole nation of Italy would be full of emotionally damaged people.

Quote:

In those moments, some parents can lose control and while they may not strike out physically, the words they throw at the child -- *especially if those words include insults or* threats -- can cause lasting harm.
I bolded the part that I think was important. That article also sounds like some pretty vague science to me, I don't see a peer reviewed scientific study laying out what the damage is from yelling. There is plenty of documentation about the damaging results of mental abuse, but mental abuse is not hingent on the volume of the abuser's voice.

And I agree with IdentityCrisisMama, about this:

Quote:

I think the spectrum of both yelling and corporal punishment are both pretty big as far as how damaging either can be.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

What a great point about "how you normally talk vs your yelling voice"...

I'm normally very loud. Especially when I'm passionate about what I'm saying...when I'm upset with Willow or upset in general...I get very very quiet.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

growing up my mom yelled at me. Iusd to wish she just spank me or slap me and be dnoe with it. I hated th yelling far worse than I ever minded a little spanking.

I have heard some GD people say really nasty things to thier children and it breaks my heart. Could a little spanking realy be worse than that. I doubt it. BUt then again if someone can't control thier tounges chances are they can't control thier hands either. Thier whole approach need to change I guess.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I sure hope yelling isn't as bad.









I have never yelled insults. I have rarely yelled threats (and those threats were stuff like not going to the park, etc.). But I do yell out of frustration sometimes. I yell stuff like "I am so tired of this/why won't you listen/I just want to get in the car and go, put your shoes on!"). It is the number one thing I am working to change about myself. But I am naturally a very intense person - people all the time mistake my tone of voice for being angry or really upset when I'm really just passionate about what I'm talking about. There have been a few times when I've truly lost it and it did make ds cry.







: I always have apologized, and explained that I should not have yelled.

In my defense, a few months ago I realized I had severe hypothryoid issues, and since that came under control I have yelled a whole lot less, and have not lost it with him once. But I still yell or speak in a harsh tone more often than I would like, and more often than is warranted by ds's behavior.

I was spanked maybe 3 or 4 times total as a child. My dad saved it for very "severe" offenses - usually lying. I will never spank my children, but I don't think that his spanking really affected me that negatively. He was always calm and rational about it, never out of control or in the heat of anger. And he was overall a very loving, fair, respectful father. My point is not that spanking is okay (I don't think that it is - ever), but that I guess I can see how verbal "discipline" can be just as or more damaging than physical "discipline," depending on it's nature and severity.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think insults can be just as damaging as spanking, but a raised voice occasionaly, no.

One BIG difference is that in life you are going to run into people yelling at you, at least at some point, if you work or have to deal with "the public."

But being hit, that is not going to happen and shouldn't to kids either.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

There's "yelling" (expressing frustration or whatever, but words are not threatening or insulting or demeaning, etc) and there's emotional abuse-- emotional abuse (e.g. threats, insults) can be done in a regular voice or a yelling voice.

I do not believe that yelling is as bad as spanking, and I suspect that emotional abuse is much worse than both. I do not want to yell, and I've made pretty good progress towards that goal. It can startle my child and/or make him cry, and that means that yelling is not good behavior. I apologize, tell him that it is wrong for me to do that, move on. But I think the real problematic "yelling" that the article is refering to is really emotional abuse-- saying something mean to your kids, or threatening to do something to them in an ugly voice, putting them down, etc. Or just going on and on about something, even if it's not insulting or demeaning.

Karla


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Yelling and emotional abuse are completely different IMHO.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Yelling and emotional abuse are completely different IMHO.

I'm glad to hear someone say this because I beat myself up about yelling, wondering if I'm doing serious emotional damage.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

But isn't that the same as saying controlled spanking not done in anger as a part of an over all discipline program is NOT the same as hitting a child.

I htink yelling is yelling. when yuo lose it on your child you lose it on your child and it doesn't matter what you are saying the messege is loud and clear. "you yhave pushed me over the edge and you are making me nuts. Why can't you just do it better" I have never heard anyone yell calmly. Shouting for someone to "come to dinner" is a completely different thing (and we still don't do that because shouting is just rude and lazy, just walk over there already and speak in a normal tone) of course but i have never heard anyone raise thier voice to thier child without having already lost thier temper. Lets face it if they still had everything in check they wouldn't be yelling.

I realy caution everyone about justifying any sort of yelling. It really is brutal to kids to be yelled at. No body yells "you are so seet and beautiful" they only yell when they are mad, frustrated, tired of playing around whatver. when they are ticked off and have no patience and no resources left. It is never kind or gentle and it may be effecting your kids more than you want to admit. I clearly remember thinking "i wish she would just stop and hit me and be done with it." i really didn't mind being smacked now and then but it killed me every time she would start yelling at me. reminding me with every word what a dissapointment I was, how I didn't measure up, how I wasn't fast enough smart enough whatever I wasn't doing well enough.

So really think about yelling before you yell. If you are saynig something nice or impotant you really dont have to yell it. Once you raise your voice your children are likely to turn into somethign negative.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Sandra, I respect your point of view. Ideally, NOBODY should yell. Not at the cat, your husband or your kids. When/If it happens, apologize, try and correct the behavior and move on.
Yelling and Emotional Abuse are two completely different cookies imo. I've been yelled at for things, and I've been told (not screamed) that I'm a _______ (fill in the blank stupid whore, person, bitch etc. etc.) by my mom. The emotional abuse could be spoken, screamed, or combined with physical. It was always the worst.

I will never say that yelling is the same as emotional abuse. I don't think anything could change that POV because I've lived with both. I've been yelled at (a way for my mother to feel her point was being put across and 'larger' then I) and it wasn't painful for me the way emotional abuse was.

I'm not justifying any of it, If the title was "Emotional Abuse as bad as Spanking?" I would say HELL YES. But, its yelling...Nope, not even the same field.


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## boricuaqueen327 (Oct 11, 2004)

I was disciplined using both when I was younger and I will say that personally, I would have preferred a spanking to yelling some times and other times vice versa. It really depends on what was being said. Things like "you're so stupid" or "you're so lazy" etc really hurt me more than a spanking ever did.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, I am speaking only from my personal experience with my son, but he seems to be severely bothered my any kind of yelling. No matter the message.

The few times I have yelled, he has stopped, stunned and burst out in inconsolable tears. Then brings it up again. He does not forget. He is trouble by it, and he needs a lot of attention, cuddling and hugs for the rest of the day. Definitely noticeable. And nothing extreme, no insults or name calling or even close to emotional abuse.

This does correlate with the study, but he might react the same way to any kind of spanking. I do not spank though. I would think for my son continued yelling over time would be detrimental no matter the content.

I would have much rather been spanked as a kid than yelled out. Hands down. Mild or severe yelling. My dad found out quickly I was punishable by having my parents disappointed in me. The words echoed in my head for days whereas the sting in my bottom wore off after a few hours.

I do not think one needs to be worse than the other. I think they are both negative behaviors I would rather my son not emulate. As a PP mentioned, this will just encourage me to think before I act. Before I express any anger or frustration in these manners. Something I forget sometimes.

But this is just my experience.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Meco, I just wanted to say that my nephew is like that. My Bro will yell & its way worse then a spanking to him. Yes, they spank.
Its not a positive behavior for sure & you are right - one dosen't need to be worse then the other, but I can't help but think that yelling "Go to your Room!" is in no way on the same level of bad as "Your so stupid" or spanking...I dunno....Good conversation here, always good to think more about things.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I do agree with that.

I believe a PP mentioned a continuum of both physical and verbal abuse. Those two would be at opposite ends in my experience.

My problem is that is snowballs so for me just refraining is better. Otherwise once I do it once it seems to get easier and easier kwim? I believe my son is highly sensitive to words, and he reacts strongly to the vibe he picks up from me. He and I are very close in mind and spirit and it affects him this way. I am sorry your nephews gets spanked







That makes me sad to hear.

I hope one day it is not the norm.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

My poor nephews are a sad story all the way around. The saddest part is, their mom is a professor of Sociology who works in the abused children field (when she was employed!)

Anyways, thats probably OT..


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

"Don't hit the cat!" yelling is totally different from "You're so stupid" yelling.
One is clearly emotional abuse, and the other might or might not be.
If you have a really sensitive kid who melts into tears when you raise your voice, you might have emotionally (unintentionally) almost abused your child when you yelled about the cat.
Or, if you yell often, something is probably wrong.
Yelling can be way worse than spanking, but occationally loosing it and yelling (just speaking loudly, with a mean look on your face) is not a good thing, but not something to feel super guilty over, IMO.
Spanking, IMO, is worse than that.
It's better to never yell, though. That is the ideal. (excluding the dangerous "WATCH OUT!" yelling.)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I just wanted to agree with a PP that words can be abusive whether yelled or spoken quietly. My dad has serious issues about weight, and my little sister was heavy as a child. He never yelled names at her, but he was obvious in his disgust for her being heavy, and she is still screwed up from that. He wasn't outright mean, but just obvious, you know?

So now I'm a parent. I am completely supportive and accepting of my kids in every way possible, but I do yell sometimes out of frustration. Not good, and I wish I never did it. I'm working on it, but I'm not perfect. And there are times that ds has talked about it afterwards, making me feel even more like crap. And I accept that if I had never yelled at him he would probably be even happier and more well adjusted than he already is.

But if I step back I can't help but think that yelling "Why do I have to keep asking, just put your shoes on!" has got to be less hurtful than making a 6 year old feel ashamed because she only wants to wear elastic waist pants, even if it's done in a quiet tone of voice. Heck, it can be done with just a look.

I think there is a continuum to everthing, even things I detest like spanking, within which there are better and worse types. (That is a really bad sentence, but I'm too lazy to think of how better to word it!)


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
...but i have never heard anyone raise thier voice to thier child without having already lost thier temper. Lets face it if they still had everything in check they wouldn't be yelling.

I disagree with this. I know many adults who yell in conversation. I think it's a temperament and cultural thing and it's something that I think many children can adapt to and not be damaged as a result.

I'm not suggesting that children can or should adapt to verbal abuse. But, yelling, as a style of communication is not always bad, imo.

I feel I can say this because (although I do yell occasionally) I'm not a yeller. I wasn't raised with yelling *at all*. It took me quite a while to realize that people who communicate differently than me and my family (the "passionate" yelling types as opposed to the "ever so composed" types) are not any more angry or dysfunctional than me and they are not necessarily more prone to verbal abuse.


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## Pealette (Feb 27, 2005)

When I am frustrated I do often yell, never insults but stating my feelings. I have been trying to pay attention to this and stay in a space of observance instead of taking on all my feelings. This is because I noticed that I did not feel good inside after my outbursts.
I do apologize and give more cuddles.
I found a book that we read a lot too, it's just perfect.

"Harriet, You'll Drive Me Wild!" by Mem Fox

The back cover says, "Harriet Harris doesn't _mean_ to be pesky. Sometimes she just is. And her mother doesn't _mean_ to lose her temper. Sometimes she just does. But Harriet and her mother know that even when they do things they wish they hadn't, they still love each other very much."

My ds actually quotes this book to me now, and we have a good laugh (that's how the book ends)


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I disagree with this. I know many adults who yell in conversation. I think it's a temperament and cultural thing and it's something that I think many children can adapt to and not be damaged as a result.

I'm not suggesting that children can or should adapt to verbal abuse. But, yelling, as a style of communication is not always bad, imo.

I feel I can say this because (although I do yell occasionally) I'm not a yeller. I wasn't raised with yelling *at all*. It took me quite a while to realize that people who communicate differently than me and my family (the "passionate" yelling types as opposed to the "ever so composed" types) are not any more angry or dysfunctional than me and they are not necessarily more prone to verbal abuse.

Good point, IdentityCrisisMama. My mom was a yeller. That's her personality and her family. She was very GD otherwise. She did not punish or spank. She was not verbally abusive. I don't remember being bothered by the yelling, except maybe occasionally. I'm not so much a yeller by personality, but do find myself yelling at my kids more than I'd like. I'm working on this, but I think it is different when you grew up in a family where yelling was just normal. Hmm...


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I have been thinking about this thread a lot. i was having trouble wrapping my head around how it is the same and different but then it hit me.

Saying that some yelling is ok and other is abusive is like saying some spanking is ok and some is abusive. Some people are even very physical in all they do (we are for one) and its just a cultural thing to be physical in every aspect of relating and even spanking as a form of physical distractin/redirection/conditioning whatever reason. But does that make spanking right? if it doesn't make spanking right then can you use the same argument for yelling. Saying it is just cultural and doesn't do much harm when you occasionally go to far? that is like saying I span my kids for fun (Which I do, there has just always been something great about patting thier little tushies) but if I spanked them with the exact same force fo discipline would it suddenly be wrong? more wrong? what if I was realy frustrated but not angry or abusive? Just simply expressing to them, by smacking thier hiney at the same level I do during play/shows of bootie affection, that I was getting frustrated and wish they woud get it. Now *if* that was acceptable do you suppose it would desensitize me to smacking just a little harder? with a little more frustration? when I lost and whailed on them? Also how do you think they would respond the next time I tried to give them a love pat? wuodl it suddenly be forever associated with the harshness of my frustration and anger? probably so. And I think you can follow the same progression with yeling. It may be a cutural but does that make it right? would it make spanking right? It may ust be your way of expressing yourself but does that desensitize you to your voice level and amount of force in your voice which would make it more easy for you to strike out with your voice in anger? say things you regret? And each time you lose it on your kids what do you think it will do them every time they hear you yell?

So I am not trying to make any judgments here, but why is some yelling ok and some ylling not when all spanking is bad. How is it any different. Bith are things that can be used without abuse or even pain (trust me my kids giggle when I get the spanking machine out - which for the record is a flapping hand. think "walk into this". i also have to "clap off" my 4 year old burping robot, yeah we are idiots







)

Ok so you may be thinking she has talked herself right out of this because "love pats" are like "passionate loud speaking" but everyone seems to be justifying the frustrated yeling. the " GET IN THE CAR NOW. I HAVE TOLD YOU 3 TIMES" . but how is that any diferent than someone goign over and taping thier childs behind and calmly saying "get in the car now. I have told you three times" but eveyone would be heartbroken if we were talking about how that was an acceptable way to treat your kids. and yet with yelling it is "oh well we all do that. no harm done"

I thinkt he two are realy similar. and can be compared. And I think a controled unangry spanking is the same as loud forceful speaking to a child. they both say the same thing "you are not doing what you are suppoed to and I am going to get really mad if you don't. I am already losing my patience" or "you will do what I tell you to do and I will make you misreable until you do it" . And that both can easly escalate to abuse easily enough and easty to see. i am not saying either one is right or wrong. that is not my point./ My point is that they are the same. And depending on the child one may be more effective in making them misreable and depending on the parent one may be more likely to lead to abuse. But in the end they are the same thing in attention and their ability to hurt. And I can't see how any yelling on any level is acceptable when spanking on any level is unacceptable. And I guess I have yelled an exclimation in happiness before buteven that has realy upset my child so i try not to ever shout


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I get the gist of what lilyka is saying, but I think ultimately I disagree that there is no difference. I'm tired and about to go to bed, so I don't know if I will explain myself well, but I'll give it a shot.

I don't think anyone is saying that yelling is a great thing to do. I think some people here (myself included) are saying that yelling is not necessarily emotional abuse, and that they don't think it is as harmful as spanking. And as much as I abhor spanking, I personally don't think all spanking is physical abuse. I think all spanking is wrong, but there is a difference, in my mind, between swatting a kid on the butt and beating them senseless with a belt. I would be horrified if I saw a friend do either, but one I would call the cops and the other I wouldn't.

But I think that the issue goes beyond volume of voice. Telling a child in a perfectly normal tone of voice that they are a loser and you hate them because they spilled their milk is emotionally abusive. And I personally think that is much worse than yelling "get in the car!" In a perfect world, I would never yell at my kids. And I have felt horrible after yelling, and I do apologize, and I do wonder what damage I have done.

At this late hour I can't perfectly articulate why using words, even yelling, seems more appropriate to me than physical force, but it just does. Maybe it's just because that's my personality. I am one of those people that tends to be loud and passionate and intense about everything, even when talking with my husband about what to make for dinner. Maybe it's because I'm Italian - my grandparents were always yelling and waving their hands around, but were nothing but kind to us. So for me, hitting my child would be such an act of aggression, something so scary for both of us, that I can't even imagine what that would do to them, or me. But for someone who has a different personality, I can see how they would feel differently about it.

Baby wakes, gotta run.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm really not trying to justify yelling at your kids, so if anyone thinks that we'll have a problem.

See, I don't yell as part of my normal communication so I can't describe what I think the difference is.

I do know that I get a bad feeling with an aspect of US culture who don't yell, are always 'proper' and think that protects them from being verbally abusive. I think we have a culture of stifled communication where expressing anger and frustration in an honest way is taboo and I think that's a problem.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
I thinkt he two are realy similar. and can be compared. And I think a controled unangry spanking is the same as loud forceful speaking to a child. they both say the same thing "you are not doing what you are suppoed to and I am going to get really mad if you don't. I am already losing my patience"

First, what is wrong with expressing this?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
But in the end they are the same thing in attention and their ability to hurt. And I can't see how any yelling on any level is acceptable when spanking on any level is unacceptable.

I'm saying that I don't think it's appropriate to put corporal punishment and yelling in the same box. I'm also saying that I don't think yelling is the only form of verbal/emotional abuse. I don't think all yelling is verbal/emotional abuse.

As far as how can one possibly be okay in some situations and not in the other? Well, I have many reasons for that but the first one is that hitting people (other than children) is against the law and yelling isn't. That's a simplistic answer and I have more reasons but I'm not sure if the question is rhetorical or not.

I do think I should mention that I am quite sensitive to yelling so my definition of yelling may be a little broader than other people's.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Anyone who has seen *Malcolm in the Middle* can get a better idea of what I'm talking about.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
So I am not trying to make any judgments here, but why is some yelling ok and some ylling not when all spanking is bad. How is it any different.


Because in our society people do sometimes yell at each other and while its not good, its not a crime or in any way illegal.

You do as an adult occasionally have to deal with other people yelling. It's part of life. Its within the relm of normal human interaction (although at one end of the range)

Hitting is not. That is the difference.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

I am a yeller, but trying not to be. The main thing in that article that stuck out to me was the part about how we usually don't yell at anyone else _but_ our children. That to me is a clue that it is wrong. I don't yell at the bank teller cause she is slow or the receptionist at work because she is annoying. But I do yell at my son. Is it because I can get away with it? This is a BIG issue for me right now.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

I agree with the previous posters and while I don't see anyone saying that yelling is okay, there are wide differences between different types of yelling.

I think one of the key differences is that mom "yelling" as in losing it (e.g. "I'm so tired of having to repeat myself 7 times") compared to "yelling" (quietly or loudly) something like "you're a stupid, worthless child". When Mom yells about her, it can obviously be upsetting to kids because of the tone and the startle. But I also think that kids don't internalize mom's losing it as something negative about them, whereas the emotional abuse does get internalized, that's why it's so damaging.

Left to my own devices, I'd definately be a yeller-- it's just part of who I am. It's just more natural for me to say "get your butt down here for dinner" than to sweetly call "dinner's ready" like June Cleaver. But it's just not a good style of being with young children (probably not with any age children), so I'm adapting. I do yell in anger, too-- "stop banging that dish" or the like. With practice, I see my natural yelling style becoming calmer and softer, and I think that is a good thing. My goal would be never to yell at all, but, frankly, I'm aiming for the realistic goal of hardly ever yelling.

Karla


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sistermama*
The main thing in that article that stuck out to me was the part about how we usually don't yell at anyone else _but_ our children. That to me is a clue that it is wrong.

Yes, I agree.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

The main thing in that article that stuck out to me was the part about how we usually don't yell at anyone else but our children. That to me is a clue that it is wrong.
I yell at my husband sometimes. I just had a fight with my sister and ended up yelling. And I know I've yelled at my mom before. Heck, I've yelled at the ceiling with no one else in the room before.

I don't go around all day yelling. But I think that saying that it is wrong because we treat the bank teller differently is not a logical conclusion. I also don't hug and kiss the bank teller when she says something nice to me. I still don't think yelling is a good thing to do, however, and I have definitely been conscious about yelling less in the past few months.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

SIstermama - yes that is exactly it. that is what I was feeling and couldn't really express right. Why is it only acceptable to treat our children this way. That is what I couldn't wrap my head around. and if we did yell too often at our husbands, orther drivers, the bank teller etc people wouldn't hesitate to tell us we have a problem.

and of course you can be emotionally abusive without yelling. I thinky ou can be physically abusive without ever striking yuor child in anger. There are all sorts of ways yuo can hurt a persons bidy, calmly, reationaly and with a smile on your face and even with all the best intentions. but thats just mesed up and everyone knows that.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I yell at my husband sometimes. I just had a fight with my sister and ended up yelling. And I know I've yelled at my mom before. Heck, I've yelled at the ceiling with no one else in the room before.

I don't go around all day yelling. But I think that saying that it is wrong because we treat the bank teller differently is not a logical conclusion.


EXACTLY, and if you do yell at the teller (and some people do) that is considered ok. They may not like it, but its not gonna get you arrested.

If you hit the teller, the police would be on their way.

If your dh hits you, its time to leave the marriage, even if it hardly ever happens.

He yells occassionally and you can still have a great marriage. If its not a put down or insult.

For our kids too yelling "you are stupid" or any insult is as bad as spanking. Yelling "Stop pulling the cats tail" is maybe not the best way to handle the bevahior but not as bad as spanking.

Our children will prob have to deal with people yelling at them as adults.

They won't have to deal with people hitting them as a "just part of life" thing.

THUS, the difference and why they are simply and utterly NOT THE SAME


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
EXACTLY, and if you do yell at the teller (and some people do) that is considered ok. They may not like it, but its not gonna get you arrested.

If you hit the teller, the police would be on their way.

If your dh hits you, its time to leave the marriage, even if it hardly ever happens.

He yells occassionally and you can still have a great marriage. If its not a put down or insult.

For our kids too yelling "you are stupid" or any insult is as bad as spanking. Yelling "Stop pulling the cats tail" is maybe not the best way to handle the bevahior but not as bad as spanking.

Our children will prob have to deal with people yelling at them as adults.

They won't have to deal with people hitting them as a "just part of life" thing.

THUS, the difference and why they are simply and utterly NOT THE SAME

Just because something is legal doesn't make it okay to do. Yelling at people out in public is not okay to do. It is rude and insensitive. I would like to learn to afford the same courtesy to my children that I give to strangers on the street.

I also don't buy the arguement that it is okay to yell at kids because they need to learn to be yelled at. Plenty of kids have to deal with being hit by others (playmates, bullies at school), that doesn't mean we should spank them to desensitize them to it.

So for me, yelling is not necessarily as bad as spanking (depending on words used) but it is:
rude
disrespectful
lazy
an emotional release for me that doens't benefit my kid in any way
and, most importantly, ineffective!!!!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I also don't buy the arguement that it is okay to yell at kids because they need to learn to be yelled at.
I don't think anyone here has said that it's okay to yell at kids for any reason.

We could take this argument further and say that ignoring your kids is as bad as hitting, that CIO is as bad as hitting, that being an emotionally controlling parent is as bad as hitting, etc. etc. etc. So if all this stuff is just as bad as hitting, then why not hit? There are so many ways to be hurtful to children, as well as others. Everyone here is striving to be the most gentle, thoughtful, respectful parent they can be. It just so happens that as moms we are sometimes tired and stressed and out of creative energy. And while no one here is proud of yelling at their kid to get in the damn car already, I'm sure that they feel better than if they smacked them upside the head for not listening.

I agree with you that yelling is disrespectful and lazy and ineffective. I am not trying to defend yelling as a nice thing to do. I don't like when I yell, and try not to do it. But back to the original question, I still don't think that yelling in a frustrated sense (again, not yelling insults or hurtful threats) is on the same level as hitting.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I think yelling can be as bad as spanking, but it depends. I agree with those above who pointed out the difference between yelling, "Don't hit the cat!" and "You're so stupid!" But I think yelling, in general, is demeaning and shows a lack of respect.

That said, I'm not perfect, and will occasionally raise my voice out of frustration, but I have tried very, very hard to keep those occasions few and far between, and when I slip, I usually apologize. I figure yelling parents wind up with yelling kids.

I want my daughter to understand that there are appropriate ways to express negative feelings, and I need to model that.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I don't think anyone here has said that it's okay to yell at kids for any reason.
I agree with you that yelling is disrespectful and lazy and ineffective. I am not trying to defend yelling as a nice thing to do. I don't like when I yell, and try not to do it. But back to the original question, I still don't think that yelling in a frustrated sense (again, not yelling insults or hurtful threats) is on
the same level as hitting.


Yes, the question was "is it AS bad" and I, like oceanbaby, think the answer is clearly NO.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
But isn't that the same as saying controlled spanking not done in anger as a part of an over all discipline program is NOT the same as hitting a child.

I htink yelling is yelling. when yuo lose it on your child you lose it on your child and it doesn't matter what you are saying the messege is loud and clear. "you yhave pushed me over the edge and you are making me nuts. Why can't you just do it better" I have never heard anyone yell calmly. .

I disagree. You can use a loud voice and NOT degrade someone.

Yelling calmly cannot happen but that does NOT mean yelling = degrading.


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## Vixenmama (Apr 24, 2002)

I gotta chime in here because this is somthing I'm struggling with right now. Personally, I don't think yelling is as bad as hitting, but it depends on what, when, how often.

That being said, I don't like yelling and wish I didn't. If feels "wrong" to me and disrespectful. HoweverI get so frustrated and angry with my toddler (especially since I have a 4-month old now too) that I find myself talking through gritted teeth, yelling, etc. I don't yell insults, it's usually "I asked you five times to pick that up....". etc.

I do not want to behave this way, and yet even though I've recognized it and vowed to change the change is not instant. I'm getting better but it's not a switch that I can willfully flip. "Yes, I yell/No I don't yell". Any change I've ever tried to make to my character has always been gradual and progressive, like two steps forward and one back. Anyone with me on this?

What I have done is raise the issue with other mom's who are in similar positions and at our parent/child class, and have found a remarkable number of kind/gentle/loving/aware mom's say "oh my god, I locked myself in the bathroom and screamed yesterday" or "oh he makes me so mad I couldn't look at him". I feel compassion and understanding for these mom's because I know so well how hard it is to not live up to your own expectations of what a "perfect" mom is--I don't consider the other yellers abusive/neglectful/incompetent, but women striving to be good moms and bumping up against their own short-commings, and if I see them like that then I'm forced to view myself that way too.

So "screw" the guilt, vow to do better, don't hate yourself for not changing immediately and perfectly, and be a living example of a human being trying to be better and making progress to your sweet little one. My approach is to put my energy into making a lasting change to my behavior, not guilt and self-loathing for my all too human shortcommings.

These questions of right/wrong good/bad always flummox me. Who cares if it's right or wrong? What I want to know is, how do people successfully change undesirable behavior---I don't want a non-yeller telling me I shouldn't yell. duh. I know I shouldn't. I want an ex-yeller sharing how she kicked the habit.

best,
-v.

thank me for not posting this response in CAPS to simulate my real-life yelling




























:


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Hi, i used to come here a lot, but i left because im not the completely "mothering" mom and would become confused in what i truly want for my children and what everyone here thinks is ok it some circumstances.
I strive to be a "good" and better mom every day. I want my children to feel happy, safe and secure. But I admit and offer support to vixenmama...

I KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL. EVERYTHING YOU SAID IS ME...EVERY WORD, I COULD HAVE TYPED!!!! I FEEL YOU, I SUPPORT YOU AND STRUGGLE EVERY DAY LIKE YOU NOT TO YELL. IT IS SO HARD, AND JUST WHEN I THINK IVE GOT IT UNDER CONTROL, IT HAPPENS AGAIN... ONE STEP FORWARD, TWO STEPS BACK.

you can talk to me anytime...


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Raising your voice is simply not as bad as hitting.
Neither is good.
I don't feel "abused" when people raise their vioce to me in a political debate...if they were to "whack" me, it would totally change.
If someone were to call me a "stupid liberal living in la-la land" in a quiet tone, I'd be much more offended by that that a loud "But those terrorists are trying to kill us!"
An elevated decibal level can simply indicate passion...a hit is pure agression.

Verbal abuse is totally and completely different, as is any other form of phychological torture....just as a passionate hand holding in a political debate, when one is trying to drive in a point, is understood as a non-threatening gesture amongst friends.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I was raised in a yelling family. We were loud, but we very rarely said anything actually abusive. It would never occur to me (I think) to yell something like "You stupid kid!" but I have been known to say "Stop it!" or "Enough!" or ""Hey!" in a tone of voice that some would consider yelling. I don't like it when I do it, but no, I don't consider it equal to spanking. If I were saying something personally derogatory, that would be another story.

I also sometimes yell at my DH--same story. Nothing personally accusatory, but loud and frustrated. I don't know. Sometimes I'm not sure it's so terrible to make it clear that you are frustrated and upset.

I read in one of my books that if you MUST yell, one way to handle it is just to yell "Arggggh!" or "Grrr!" I sometimes do this too. That way you KNOW you aren't saying anything that could be hurtful in its meaning.

I should add that my DD seems utterly unfazed by my occasional yell. It has never, ever worked to use the "No! No! Street! Ahhhh!" discipline approach with her, either. She actually tends to laugh at that. She's not an easily frightened child.


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## Mama2Mila (Jun 27, 2002)

I think yelling and spanking are both bad. I have never spanked (and never will), but I have yelled out of exhaustion a couple of times. I'm working hard on not doing it anymore though (reading _Buddhism for Mothers_ has really helped me a lot in that respect.
My parents have never spanked me as a child, but I do remember being yelled at quite vividly to this day, so I want to make sure that my children's memory of me will be one a gentle, understanding and even-tempered mom.

Alex


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

Vixenmama- good point. How did all you non-yellers stop yelling?


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## Mrs_Hos (May 3, 2004)

Both physical (spanking) and emotional (yelling) abuse is very scary to a little person...even if it didn't really hurt or if the words weren't angry--just the loudness of them...
I know people say 'kids can be cruel' but I think PARENTS and adults can be very cruel to their kids...sad but true...


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I have thrice deleated this post. you think I could take a hint but far be it from me . . . .

condensed version:

used to yell a lot

defined my job as mom - not reading, computer, time to myself or anything else. just teaching children. Once I surrendered everythign else it didn't seem like such a sacrifice as it did while I still thought I was entitled to those things. they were just distracting me and shortening my patience.

defined what I expected from my kids and made it clear what i expected and what i wanted from them.

clarified that sometimes a lesson need to be taught 500 times before it is learned. practice practice practice. So if I had to repeat the lesson 20 times in one day rather than becoming frustrated because she wasn't getting it I would praise God that we were moving this quickly. We were that much closer to mastery of this skill/character trait watever. So just accept that you will have to teach this leson 500 times and each time brings you one step closer to them having it.

got off my butt. Ok so I may have started at a very nice pleasent tone of voice when I said "please stop biting my shoes" but by the 100th time i am screaming. Now why on earth didn't I just get up the very first time she disobeyed and stop her. I do not know except that I was lazy or trying to do somethign else besides parent. see point 1. So get up and do somethign about it while you are still calm and rational.

Consistany. this really goes back to point 3. the more consistant you are the sooner you wil get those 50 times out of the way and the better behaved your children will be if they know they will have to answer to you every single time.

And I keep them very close to me now. for a while within arms reach. if they are right by me I know they can hear me and I don't have to yell. Also they are not likely to get into the kind of trouble that pushes me into screaming hysterics. they are mre likely to annoy me but since I act instantly on stuf rather than asking 100 times (back to point 4) I am not nearly as likely to get anoyed.

so there it is in a nutshell.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

Yelling can be worse than spanking. It depends on what is said, for sure, though. My dad said *and yelled* a lot of awful things to me. Sometimes I wish he would've just hit me instead!







Either way is pretty awful, the hitting damaged only my pride*nothing like being a 15 y.o. and getting spanked!* and made me sore for a little while, but the things he has said to me...that still hurts, even if the daft old man can't remember saying such things!


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

Well I am going to be honest.

We don't spank. Never have never will. We have a 5 yr old and a one year old.

But I do raise my voice and have yelled. I know it isn't right. I find it isn't so much that it hurts (though it does hurt feelings, and for that my daughter gets an apology and an explanation as to why mommy was wrong and that mommy is working to not do it again) but that it is ineffective as discipline tool.

More often than not it is reactionary, and I am working on taming that. I am a nervous/busy/active person by nature and go go go is my way....so the yelling or whatnot seems to be a reaction at the moment.............so I am learning to relax and let things go or slide more and deal more....not easy.

My girls aren't so affected...in fact sadly the baby yells and points her finger...so I have learned my ways aren't great if she is mimicking me that way. Makes a mama learn fast though.

I do agree both are not good. But spanking is worse. Unless the yelling is in the child's face and more cruel and biting than from two rooms away in frustration..(as is the case here)..







:


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## Wildflower (Nov 25, 2001)

I liked the anti-yelling suggestions at the end of the article. I'm so totally going to spray whipped cream sometime instead of yelling. That just rocks.


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

My mom yelled a lot and I don't remember what she yelled. She was blowing off steam. I do remember the hurtful things she would say or imply to me while she lectured me about something. I much prefer nowadays for someone to yell at me because I can ignore it.
DH's dad yelled all the time too and his siblings were impervious to yelliing by drill sergeants so that was just kind of funny. They all seemed to know that their dad was just blowing off steam.
DH never yells, I yell more. I have forgiven myself for it, because I am always trying to do better. DH doesn't try to correct any of the things he says in a calm voice, perceived as hurtful or not.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

My brother and I are both scarred from my mother's awful yelling.

Yelling is humilating and frightening. Yelling makes you shrink. It makes you feel overpowered and disrespected. It hurts.

I don't see the point in comparing it to spanking.. both are awful.. who cares which is worse? Both are awful.

I guess it does matter somewhat WHAT is being yelled. My mother said awful things. But I think yelling is wrong, not matter what is being said.

And I am NOT judging or criticizing mamas who admit to yelling and who want to stop. It is hard, I have been guilty of it myself. But I strive not to do it, and I always apologize if I do.


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I'm really not trying to justify yelling at your kids, so if anyone thinks that we'll have a problem.

See, I don't yell as part of my normal communication so I can't describe what I think the difference is.

I do know that I get a bad feeling with an aspect of US culture who don't yell, are always 'proper' and think that protects them from being verbally abusive. I think we have a culture of stifled communication where expressing anger and frustration in an honest way is taboo and I think that's a problem.

This is an interesting comment... to play the devil's advocate here, may i carry this to its logical conclusion and point out that hitting is also an honest expression of anger and frustration, and it is "taboo" in our society. Is this stifling? It is to some. I remember when i was younger, living in Hawaii with my ex, we were out one night drinking and he got jealous that another guy talked to me. We were walking back to our car and got into a huge screaming argument on the corner and i whacked him on the arm. Some cops saw it from across the street and they were going to arrest me for it!!!! I was, and still am, dumbfounded by this. I mean, i am a small woman. 5'4" and 100 lb. He was big and tall. It was a personal argument. I understand arresting someone for *beating* another person, for *injuring* them, but one whack on the arm!!!?

I really think our sense of balance has totally gone out the window on this one. It's ridiculous to equate one whack to the arm, hand or backside with a punch to the face or a beating. It just grates on my sense of natural law and privacy to have Big Brother breathing down my neck for such a stupid little thing. People should be allowed to freely sort out their own lives without government intervention, unless and/or until there is a question of endangerment. And that's where we need to redraw the line... a hit on the arm is not endangering anybody's life or even health.

I really think we have become oversensitized to "hitting". It is a natural human behaviour under certain emotional circumstances that should of course be controlled, and punished when uncontrolled, but it is insulting to victims of real violence when we equate a swat on the behind with being beaten. It diminishes our ability to appreciate the horror of real violence.

The same goes for yelling. It is ridiculous to associate a simple yelled "No!" to stop your child from touching the DVD player with yelling "You are a stupid, wicked child! I wish you were never born!"*Never* raising one's voice seems to me quite unnatural, i think i would be worried about the person's mental state. I think most people need to release their steam some way or other... the people who don't are the ones who explode and do something terrible one day that would be unthinkable to them normally. A la Susan Smith.

Anyway, i know my views on hitting are in a minority and unpopular on this forum, and the anti-hitting POV has been thoroughly expounded numerous times, so please don't flame me about this. I just think there is a spectrum, likewise for yelling, and personally i think there is a world of difference between swatting and injuring/beating. Or between yelling and verbally wounding. One is at the "normal/healthy" end of the spectrum, the other is at the "abusive" end of the spectrum. Even the normal/healthy ones should be rare. But when they do occur, i do not believe they are criminal or injurious to one's personhood in any way. That is the other end of the spectrum, which is reached by lack of control, thoughtlessness or outright cruelty.

I have never beaten my child, or yelled cruel things at her. I do occasionally tell her "No!" in a raised voice, and i have swatted her arm twice to prevent her from serious injury. I stand by my choices in all these matters.


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

I was yelled at a lot as a kid. The type that the other posters referred to as 'emotional abuse'. I suffered pretty severe depression through high school and college and finally got help and have gotten better recently, though I still have a lot of issues as a result. I can't compare with spanking as we weren't spanked - I do remember getting hit a few times when my mom was just out of her mind mad. My parents didn't have any extraordinary circumstances - they weren't alchoholic or anything, this was just how my mother disciplined.

The real problem with the yelling was not the tone of voice, it was the belittling, the judgements, the sarcasm (which was often not yelling). I would often yell back as a defense for as long as I could manage, then I would often just sit there crying until she was done, where I would go to my room and cry. The detachment caused by this was a big problem as well - it wasn't like she yelled at me then later apologized and gave me a hug - I was left alone.

I do not want to be this kind of parent, but I can't help sometimes yelling out of frustration. There IS a big difference between a gut reaction resulting in a little yelling (especially if you can keep judgements out and stick to how you are feeling) and spending hours belittling your child - I am not condoning the former, but I really don't think it will do significant harm, especially if you are able to follow up with gentle discipline, apologize for yelling and connect with your child afterwards.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

*One does not need to be worse than the other.*

Neither are entirely healthy. Yes, we can go on all day about how, how much and when. But no one will convince me they are necessary to my child's well being--no matter where they are on the spectrum. I can say I am fairly confidant I will not kill my kids because I fail to hit or yell at them







I can agree you need to let off steam, but I *strongly disagree* I need to direct *my* anger at my child. Sure I get frustrated, but is that my son's fault? No way, it is mine for staying up too late, not resting when I am sick, taking on too much or whatever the case may be.

There are many other ways to let off steam besides hitting and yelling (oddly enough, 2 things parents think they should do and kids should not







). Exercise, meditation, yoga, bathes, reading, walks, naps, nights out, whatever works for you. It is laughable to me I need to let off *my* steam on my defenseless, vulnerable, small child. How horrible to have other emotions put off on you. I know that feeling, and I would not wish it on anyone. Ever.

Just because one person's expression of anger is taking it out on someone else does not mean that should be the norm. Nor does it have anything to do with invasion or privacy or Big Brother. Physical violence is not something I believe in. I do not need a law telling me I cannot do it. I am against it by my own choice. Hitting is not my "natural human behaviour under certain emotional circumstances." (quote Zipporah) I do not feel the *need* to hit. Most people I know that do do it because they think they need to for disciplinary reasons.

For me it is natural to remain cool and levelheaded around my son. Sure I have my moments, but I remember who he is and who I am. I imagine for some, environmental reasons or social reasons have lead them to have more difficulty finding a balance. I respect that. A lot. Working on something you have been conditioned to do it hard and arduous. Also wonderful that a person cares to try to change.

I do not equate a "swat" with being beaten. I do not think they are the same, but I would not inflict either upon my child. Nor would I let any frustration out on my son. My son is normal toddler. My mantra, "Young children have intense feelings and needs, and are naturally loud, curious, messy, willful, impatient, demanding, creative, forgetful, fearful, self-centered, and full of energy. Try to accept them as they are." This so true. Most of the things that piss parents off are things normal toddlers do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zipporah*
But when they do occur, i do not believe they are criminal or injurious to one's personhood in any way.

Is this your opinion? Or are there facts to back this up? I am curious as one's opinion vastly differs from something supported. Not flaming, but I have never seen support for hitting, evenly occasionally.

I guess my biggest thing is to treat my son how I want to be treated. Would I want someone to hit me when I am about to do something wrong? Or scream at me? No way. So why would I hit him when he is exploring or yell at him for touching something I put in his reach?







If it was not important that he stay away from it, I would put it where it was not available to him.

Aware Parenting is a great site apropos the subject.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vixenmama*
I want an ex-yeller sharing how she kicked the habit.


Not an ex-yeller, but trying to be. I'm going to print out a bunch of these articles from Natural Child Project. I read through some of them online the other day, and I was a much calmer, more in control mom this weekend. I'm going to try reading a couple of them each morning, so I remain cognizant of what I want for my son. Plus I am going to start going to bed a bit earlier, because I am definitely a better mom when I have a little more sleep.

So who else has suggestions for us yellers who want to reform?


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
*One does not need to be worse than the other.*

Neither are entirely healthy. Yes, we can go on all day about how, how much and when. But no one will convince me they are necessary to my child's well being--no matter where they are on the spectrum. I can say I am fairly confidant I will not kill my kids because I fail to hit or yell at them







I can agree you need to let off steam, but I *strongly disagree* I need to direct *my* anger at my child. Sure I get frustrated, but is that my son's fault? No way, it is mine for staying up too late, not resting when I am sick, taking on too much or whatever the case may be.

There are many other ways to let off steam besides hitting and yelling (oddly enough, 2 things parents think they should do and kids should not







). Exercise, meditation, yoga, bathes, reading, walks, naps, nights out, whatever works for you. It is laughable to me I need to let off *my* steam on my defenseless, vulnerable, small child. How horrible to have other emotions put off on you. I know that feeling, and I would not wish it on anyone. Ever.

I was not suggesting that one should vent one's anger on their child. I would never do that, i find it appalling. Shouting "No!" does not necessarily reflect anger. On the rare occasions that i raise my voice to my child it is not in anger but due to distance or urgency. There are occasions where an impact must be made on the child to prevent something bad from happening. My saying quietly from across the room, "No", will not cause my dd to stop whatever it is she is doing, but a louder one will make her stop and move on to something else. I certainly do not yell at her in anger about anything she does -- of course it is normal toddler behaviour.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Just because one person's expression of anger is taking it out on someone else does not mean that should be the norm. Nor does it have anything to do with invasion or privacy or Big Brother. Physical violence is not something I believe in. I do not need a law telling me I cannot do it. I am against it by my own choice. Hitting is not my "natural human behaviour under certain emotional circumstances." (quote Zipporah) I do not feel the *need* to hit. Most people I know that do do it because they think they need to for disciplinary reasons.

Okay, just b/c something is a natural human behaviour does not mean that it is natural to every single person on the planet. Of course there are exceptions, and you are one of them, as are many of the people on this forum. However, i would venture to say that when you were a little girl, at some point you started hitting when you were mad, and your parents had to teach you not to. I have yet to encounter a child who doesn't hit someone at some point. It *is* a natural human reaction to strong feelings of displeasure with another person, which requires fairly intensive socialization in order to be eradicated.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
For me it is natural to remain cool and levelheaded around my son. Sure I have my moments, but I remember who he is and who I am. I imagine for some, environmental reasons or social reasons have lead them to have more difficulty finding a balance. I respect that. A lot. Working on something you have been conditioned to do it hard and arduous. Also wonderful that a person cares to try to change.

I do not equate a "swat" with being beaten. I do not think they are the same, but I would not inflict either upon my child. Nor would I let any frustration out on my son. My son is normal toddler. My mantra, "Young children have intense feelings and needs, and are naturally loud, curious, messy, willful, impatient, demanding, creative, forgetful, fearful, self-centered, and full of energy. Try to accept them as they are." This so true. Most of the things that piss parents off are things normal toddlers do.

I would not "inflict" anything on my child either, *unless i had to in order to prevent something worse.* Which is what i stated in my pp. Nor do i take out any frustration on my dd -- i agree with your mantra completely, and there are very few things my dd does that annoy me or cause frustration. She is an endless source of amusement and wonder to me. I am curious, what would you do if your ds reached out to touch a hot element on the stove? Or eat some dog poop? If you wouldn't swat his arm to prevent these things from happening, i am genuinely curious as to what you would do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Is this your opinion? Or are there facts to back this up? I am curious as one's opinion vastly differs from something supported. Not flaming, but I have never seen support for hitting, evenly occasionally.

I stated quite clearly "I do not _believe_". It is my opinion. I'm sorry, but i cannot accept that swatting my child's arm to keep her from terribly burning herself is in any way going to scar her for life. The very idea is ridiculous and just goes to show how oversensitized we have become about this issue. She will do far worse to herself when she first falls on concrete and skins her knee. Or falls off the monkey-bars. Brief, uninjurious moments of an unpleasant sensation so minor you can barely call it pain are experienced by people every day in countless ways and do not cause them any lasting trauma; in fact it is usually forgotten in a few minutes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
I guess my biggest thing is to treat my son how I want to be treated. Would I want someone to hit me when I am about to do something wrong? Or scream at me? No way. So why would I hit him when he is exploring or yell at him for touching something I put in his reach?







If it was not important that he stay away from it, I would put it where it was not available to him.

Actually, yes, if i was in danger of hurting myself i would certainly want someone to yell or push me out of harm's way, or physically restrain me in some way. Likewise if i was about to do something completely unacceptable and wrong (presumably unknowingly), i would have no problem with someone telling me not to, raised voice or not. That is what people are supposed to do for each other. That is what makes a society, people guiding each other and helping each other understand what is acceptable and/or safe and what is not.
I do not arbitrarily hit my child for exploring whatsoever. But i do realize that there are things in this world that it is not appropriate for a young child to feel safe around. I want my child to understand that some things are off-limits. I do not allow myself or anyone else to put food in the electronics, and i will not allow my dd to do it either. I do not believe it teaches her anything useful to simply remove all "untouchable" items from her reach; i think that would be doing her a grave disservice. I want her to understand that for the most part she can explore to her heart's content, but there are just some things she is not allowed to touch. This understanding will benefit her as she gets older, rather than her thinking she can just do whatever she wants to whatever object she wants. I do not do this to stifle her in any way, but to teach and guide, which i believe is my job. I would not hit her over such matters, ever, and usually my noes are spoken in a gentle tone of voice followed by a playful distraction of some kind. But there are occasions, like i said earlier, when i am across the room or when she decides to be mischievous and test the limits a bit, and then yes, i do raise my voice for a moment. This i also follow with playful distraction. Sometimes she gets mad for a minute, most of the time she laughs and allows herself to be redirected. I do not accept that this is in any way unhealthy or damaging to her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Aware Parenting is a great site apropos the subject.

Thank you, i will check this out after dinner.


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
*One does not need to be worse than the other.*

I guess my biggest thing is to treat my son how I want to be treated. Would I want someone to hit me when I am about to do something wrong? Or scream at me? No way. So why would I hit him when he is exploring or yell at him for touching something I put in his reach?







If it was not important that he stay away from it, I would put it where it was not available to him.



Meco, I read your post and at first felt a bit angry thinking, hey, so you're perfect? Here I just had another day of grief with both kids and I yelled and muddled through.............

And then this quote above I got to...you said it so absolutely beautifully I could cry. And I do cry when I have been a horrid mama at that moment when I have let loose for no other good reason than I am tired, late blah blah...........

So today I again apologized........and looked into my girls' eyes...and I remembered that they are mine and deserve respect that I expect from them even though I know I must mirror it to teach it.

I forgave myself also...because I am learning as I go and this is part of it. I am calmer, believe it or not..........and I am also realizing that much of my children's differing frustrating behaviours are phases of growth and maturity and testing limits.

Onto tomorrow............







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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Oh mama, I never meant to imply I am perfect. In fact, I am far from it. This is just a subject I am passionate about, and I get carried away sometimes. Justifications for things you feel strongly about are hard.

But your post in similar to my experiences. When I do have a bad moment, hour or day I look into my son's eyes and remember who he is. I treat him how I want to be treated.

Today was a trying day for me as well. Overtired due to helping my MIL and BIL move and severe PMS and back cramps. I was just not in a good mood. It took every ounce of my being not to snap at my son or yell. It was very hard, but I just try to remember he is 2 and doing what toddlers do. No amount of me yelling or hitting will change normal toddler behaviors (I just remind myself "believe it or not, every kid __________ (fill in the blank), it is normal.) IME.

I am sorry you cry when you break







: You definitely should not feel guilty. It is hard, and I do for a bit too. But you are a human too right? Breaking happens. I hope you have fewer days of being hard on yourself. We all do our best right?

Quote:

I forgave myself also...because I am learning as I go and this is part of it.








I am glad you forgave yourself. I agree it is a learning experience. You said it.

Again my apologies for sounding obnoxiously perfect.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Zipporah, I feel that a lot of times when a parent yells (not a "no!" obivously) that it is something of their own issues. When I get mad that my son is running around and yelling at the store and I feel the desire to express anger, that is my issue. I feel bound my the rules of society (and I react to them), but he is tired, hungry or bored and he is expressing himself as such. He is not trying to piss the world off. I notice most of the yelling I hear is out of a person's ideals not the childs. I often see kids get yelled at in the park due to embarassment or chagrin on their parent's behalf. This is taking out one personal feelings on their child.

Quote:

My saying quietly from across the room, "No", will not cause my dd to stop whatever it is she is doing, but a louder one will make her stop and move on to something else.
This is true. I rarely use the word "no" though as I find it only effective in the short term (from personal experience from not only my son but myself). More on this later.

Quote:

However, i would venture to say that when you were a little girl, at some point you started hitting when you were mad, and your parents had to teach you not to. I have yet to encounter a child who doesn't hit someone at some point. It *is* a natural human reaction to strong feelings of displeasure with another person, which requires fairly intensive socialization in order to be eradicated.
You are right. I surely hit as a child, and it is a normal expression of anger and frustration for a *child*. Not an adult. That is the vast difference between me and my son. I can use words and communicate emotions through words. He is not as adept yet. Sure, crying is an honest expression of a child, but few adults cry when they are hungry, tired or need to change. We grow up, we use words, we change the way we express ourselves. Surely this extends to expressing oneself with their body.

Quote:

I am curious, what would you do if your dd reached out to touch a hot element on the stove? Or eat some dog poop? If you wouldn't swat her arm to prevent these things from happening, i am genuinely curious as to what you would do.
When my son reaches to something hot, I do as I have done since he was born. I say "caliente!" Hot. Not yelling. Just as an exclamation. I see nothing wrong with this, but the subject is not exclamations. The natural consequence to touching something hot is not hitting, it is touching the hot thing. The radiator pipe at the g-ma's gets a little warm to the touch, so I say "caliente!" He touched it once, and he found it to be a bit to hot for comfort but not too hot to burn. But he still has never touched it again. "Caliente" is the only reminder he needs. It is also an automatic blow on your food word. If he were to start to eat poop, I would go over immediately as I was saying that's poop in Spanish. All while motioning to put it down. If he ate a bit, what would be the worst thing that happened? He gets sick? Well, that is a natural consequence. He has put nasty things in his mouth and is no less healthy because of it.

Here is a little story from my day. My son was constantly in my water glass on my side table all day today. No matter where I put it, he wanted to play. I repeatedly asked him "Please leave my water alone. I do not want it to spill." Rather than say "No" which no explantion on my part of understanding on his part as to *why*. Instead I chose to make a request with an explanation. Well, he stopped. He later, he wanted to play in it again. Finally I realized his need. He wanted to play with water. I said to him him "I noticed you are very interested in my water. I am frustrated that my water is being messed with over and over. I need to have my water left alone. Would you like to take a bath where you can play freely with the water?" And of course that was all he wanted. He hopped in the bath, and he did not touch my glass again. Had I skipped all the please leave my waters alone, and went straight to this I would have saved a lot of time. And never once did I need to yell, hit or swat.

Here is a good place to plug my favorite book "Non Violent Communication." It is such an excellent book. I lent out my copy or else I would quote from it. Basically it is about making observations, expressing feelings, stating needs and then requests. I try to implement it in my daily dealings with my son. It really proves effective.

Quote:

i cannot accept that swatting my child's arm to keep her from terribly burning herself is in any way going to scar her for life. The very idea is ridiculous and just goes to show how oversensitized we have become about this issue. She will do far worse to herself when she first falls on concrete and skins her knee. Or falls off the monkey-bars.
Well, here is the obvious difference between me hitting my son and him falling is one is natural, the other consequence is not.

And I can tell you the times I did experience natural consequences, I learned from them. I learned not to let go of my handle bars of my bike on a hill or else I might hit the ground and bleed everywhere. Or a helmet will save me from a headache. Some things are more effective to be learned by human experience.

Quote:

Brief, uninjurious moments of an unpleasant sensation so minor you can barely call it pain are experienced by people every day in countless ways and do not cause them any lasting trauma; in fact it is usually forgotten in a few minutes.
Ahhh but this is unfounded opinion and not anything factual. I remember my babysitter swatting me as a child very clearly. The shame and embarassment are still felt. So either I am the only person in the world like this or your opinion has fallacies in it. Do you have support for this "fact"?

Quote:

Actually, yes, if i was in danger of hurting myself i would certainly want someone to yell or push me out of harm's way, or physically restrain me in some way. Likewise if i was about to do something completely unacceptable and wrong (presumably unknowingly), i would have no problem with someone telling me not to, raised voice or not. That is what people are supposed to do for each other. That is what makes a society, people guiding each other and helping each other understand what is acceptable and/or safe and what is not.
Well, pushing my son out of the way of a city bus and hitting him for starting to eat trash or poop off the ground are two totally different things. Clearly not one in the same. Yelling or using physical (not even sure what word to use here) intervention when a life is at stake makes total sense. Yelling or physical intervention as a way to stop my son for doing something not deadly is another. Like the case of my son touching the DVD player. But others helping guide us and helping us understand what is safe and acceptable what (some) laws do as well? It might be an infringement on somone's privacy. I see people do things that are completely unacceptable to me daily, but I rarely scream at them. Littering, hitting, driving SUVs :LOL . You would really be ok with me yelling at you if I saw you swat your child? Somehow I do not think so.

Quote:

I do not arbitrarily hit my child for exploring whatsoever. But i do realize that there are things in this world that it is not appropriate for a young child to feel safe around. I want my child to understand that some things are off-limits. I do not allow myself or anyone else to put food in the electronics, and i will not allow my dd to do it either. I do not believe it teaches her anything useful to simply remove all "untouchable" items from her reach; i think that would be doing her a grave disservice.
I do too. I never really babyproofed nor did I really put anything out of my son's reach. With exception to knives and fire making things. The DVD Player and VCR were within reach. Now they are more difficult to reach, but only because of furniture rearrangement. He has broken many things, but I feel this is the natural consequence to this. Most people are not willing to have things broken or damaged so I hesitate to suggest people let their child find the natural way that things do indeed break or damage.

I agree things need to be off limits. But there are other ways to express this besides hitting and yelling. My son knows what is off limits. The stove knobs, the knives, the electronics, my yarn. But I never had to hit or yell to express to him that they were indeed off limits.

Quote:

I would not hit her over such matters, ever, and usually my noes are spoken in a gentle tone of voice followed by a playful distraction of some kind. But there are occasions, like i said earlier, when i am across the room or when she decides to be mischievous and test the limits a bit, and then yes, i do raise my voice for a moment. This i also follow with playful distraction. Sometimes she gets mad for a minute, most of the time she laughs and allows herself to be redirected. I do not accept that this is in any way unhealthy or damaging to her.
Never once did I imply a gentle word and distraction were unhealthy or damaging. These were never up for discussion. So I agree with what you are expressing here is not horrible, but this is not how I read your OP which involved hitting. A lot of this is petty differences over words and hypothetical situations, but for me the bottom line is treat my child as I want to be treated. For me that means no spanking and yelling but rational conversation expressing my feelings, needs and desires.








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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Oh mama, I never meant to imply I am perfect. In fact, I am far from it. This is just a subject I am passionate about, and I get carried away sometimes. Justifications for things you feel strongly about are hard.

But your post in similar to my experiences. When I do have a bad moment, hour or day I look into my son's eyes and remember who he is. I treat him how I want to be treated.

Today was a trying day for me as well. Overtired due to helping my MIL and BIL move and severe PMS and back cramps. I was just not in a good mood. It took every ounce of my being not to snap at my son or yell. It was very hard, but I just try to remember he is 2 and doing what toddlers do. No amount of me yelling or hitting will change normal toddler behaviors (I just remind myself "believe it or not, every kid __________ (fill in the blank), it is normal.) IME.

I am sorry you cry when you break







: You definitely should not feel guilty. It is hard, and I do for a bit too. But you are a human too right? Breaking happens. I hope you have fewer days of being hard on yourself. We all do our best right?








I am glad you forgave yourself. I agree it is a learning experience. You said it.

Again my apologies for sounding obnoxiously perfect.










Oh no mama, I never meant for you to apologize for being honest goodness...........I just meant it with reference to my reactionary first thought it reading your post not what I felt overall.............you got me thinking when I needed to and feeling again what needed to be focused on.

I probably sounded like a blubbering mess...........LOL.







: I am not always yelling or crying...LOL...but I do take stock often in how i treat my children, which I believe overall is how I wish to be treated and how I wish them to treat others....I do call myself out when I react in an improper manner....which I am working on doing less.........but I make sure they both know that it is wrong and that they are worthy of an apology for it. I read somewhere in some stupid mainstream magazine that apologizing to your children was a sign of weakness and giving in to their desires.....I totally disagree and feel I am empowering them with compassion and understanding when they see mama bring herself to their levels and act accordingly, as they are expected to.

That said, it is hard. Very hard. I also try to remind myself their ages..........and I found that adding a new babe to the mix has been the real reason for my quickness and freak-outs.....I guess I get overwhlemed. And I am working on the children NOT being who I take it out on...(meaning yelling). Today was a good morning............I relaxed more in letting oldest not dress as soon as she drearily woke, instead we dressed downstairs..........and she moved better and I didn't raise my voice, and we made it to school rather nicely.


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
This is true. I rarely use the word "no" though as I find it only effective in the short term (from personal experience from not only my son but myself). More on this later.

Here is a little story from my day. My son was constantly in my water glass on my side table all day today. No matter where I put it, he wanted to play. I repeatedly asked him "Please leave my water alone. I do not want it to spill." Rather than say "No" which no explantion on my part of understanding on his part as to *why*. Instead I chose to make a request with an explanation. Well, he stopped. He later, he wanted to play in it again. Finally I realized his need. He wanted to play with water. I said to him him "I noticed you are very interested in my water. I am frustrated that my water is being messed with over and over. I need to have my water left alone. Would you like to take a bath where you can play freely with the water?" And of course that was all he wanted. He hopped in the bath, and he did not touch my glass again. Had I skipped all the please leave my waters alone, and went straight to this I would have saved a lot of time. And never once did I need to yell, hit or swat.


This is an awesome teaching. I find too (alot from this forum and MDC ways overall but mostly due to my instincts now as a mama of 2) that I try very hard to express and explain rather than say no or whatnot. My relatives etc have issue and I am trying to teach them too that if we explain WHY the behaviour should not happen then the child is less apt to continue to try it. It is trying currently with one year old who has NO fear and LOVES to get into things....but I keep at it. I have rarely said no, am as firm as I can be and am re-learning that yelling for her does nothing but make her grin!









I do the redirect thing alot and the asking if they'd like to do something similar...I find it is laziness on my part many many times or my not wanting to be taken away from something I am enjoying (computer, reading, tv show







) that gets me riled up enough to forget to parent this way and revert to yelling or getting flustered....

Meco you are a wealth of great info!


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Zipporah and Meco - there is a place in between swatting and telling them what it is like "caliente". If you have time to swat a child's arm, which I would never do, then you have time to move their arm out of the way, move the pot back, or pick them up and move them back. The big difference to your daughter, Zip, is that one is "Mommy hit me so I didn't hurt myself" and the other is "Mommy moved me out of the way so I didn't hurt myself." If I was about to hurt myself and you did the first, I would feel quite differently than if you had done the second. I'm sure your daughter will to. And by moving the arm or child, you don't create the extra scare of the "swat" so that your child can absorb the "That's hot, We need to move back" with a clear head, rather than being scared or surprised by your action.

I took piano lessons for many years with an elderly teacher. When I was playing and she wanted me to take my hands off the piano so she could play, she would "swat" my hands. No, it wasn't hitting, it didn't hurt physically, but every time she did it I felt awful. If she had just moved my hands gently or put them in my lap, I would have felt much differently about her (and the piano lessons, for that matter.) As it was, I always felt somehow shameful or embarassed and a little shocked each time she did it. Which meant, of course, that I wasn't able to pay proper attention when she would model the playing for me after she did it.

Does this make sense? FTR - Mothering does NOT support spanking in any way. Obviously you don't spank either, but I think that many, if not most, mamas here would categorize swatting as hitting and hitting is the same as spanking. Especially when there's an alternative.


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