# How would you use GD to respond to outright "disobedience"?



## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

Okay, I know, I hate that word, just wasn't sure what else to call it...

Here are examples from this week:

# 1 - DS (nearly 4) asks DH if he can eat a halloween treat/mini chocolate bar before dinner. DH says no, he can have it after dinner. DS thinks for a minute, then takes the choc bar under the dining room table, eats it, comes back in the kitchen, holds up his hand and says to DH, "don't talk dad", puts the candy wrapper in the garbage and leaves the room. _(When I found out, I told him I was proud of him for asking if he could have the candy and appreciated him putting the wrapper in the garbage, but that I didn't like that he didn't listen to dad and that he'd get a sore tummy if he ate only chocolate and had no room for healthy food - but other than that, I just let it go)._

# 2 - DS and I make Christmas cookies. When they are done, I say we can each have one before bed, and we put the rest on a tray for a party we are having the next day. I cover it with Saran and put it on the dining room table. DS says he wants another, I say not before bed, we'll get a tummy ache, we baked them for the party, etc. We go upstairs. While I'm getting jammies on DS#2 and nursing him to sleep, DS#1 is supposed to be watching a video. I find out he's snuck downstairs, climbed on the table, stolen a cookie and is hiding behind the couch eating it. _(I told him to come out, said he could have one more bite, but that the rest was going in the garbage because he didn't listen when I said no more cookies tonight. That was that)._

# 3 - DS climbs on the counter and opens the cupboard. I ask him what he wants, he says he wants the Dora Candy in there, (don't ask me why we even have it in our cupboard...). I say "no", we are not having Dora Candy for breakfast. I put the box back, get him down and offer him several other food alternatives. He declines them all. 10 minutes later after I go upstairs to change DS#2, I come down to find DS#1 has pushed the chair back over, climbed on the counter, taken the whole BOX of Dora Candy and is hiding behind the curtains eating them. He's on his second package when I arrive on the scene. _(I took the box, told him he can finish that package but that the rest are going in the garbage b/c he didn't listen when I asked him not to eat them and asked him to eat a healthy breakfast instead. I threw them out, he didnt' bat an eye)_

This is a new behavior as of this week so I want to figure out how to respond in the best way. I tried explaining that dad and I tell him things for a reason, not just to be mean, (i.e. so he has energy for gymnastics, so he doesn't get a tummy ache, etc.). I think it goes over his head...









I generally try to let him make decisions whenever I can, but he is really testing things I think. I don't want to just let it go when he out right goes against what I've asked him nicely to do, but I'm not sure how to handle it. Today I asked him to get in the car - it was freezing, the babe was crying, and he just took off, saying "Okay, I won't listen...".

Help! Any thoughts???

Kathy


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

To be blunt - sounds like he needs more watching at this age. Take him with you when you nurse the baby, change her, etc. He simply needs more attention focused on him right now.

I look at it this way - I can't punish for disobedience. 1. I don't want blind obedience and 2. there really isn't a logical consequence here (make more candy?). So the only only thing left to do is to _prevent the situation from happening in the first place._ A child isn't going to have time to eat two packs of candy if mom is very aware of where he is and not just trusting him to listen to your words. He's 3 - not the most trustworthy age, you know?







They're still impulsive little creatures who, when they lie, do it to change reality, not to be sneaky. He might know what he is supposed to do, but the temptation is greater.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I have found that my 4 year old has less impulse control right now than she did at 3, or maybe she's not as easily redirected, distracted and has stronger opinions.









anyway...right now I keep things out of reach a lot. Until she's able to have control. With all the Christmas baking going on now though, she is getting more than the usual amount of sweets. So I have started talking about moderation and stuff.

Of course when it comes to Christmas cookies, I have less impulse control than she does


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I don't like to put the emphasis on "listening" or "not listening," because that really means "obeying," and automatic obedience is not something I want my kids to learn (as convenient as it might be for me if they did.) So in those situations, I wouldn't throw food away as a punishment for not listening; I (ideally) wouldn't even complain about my DS not listening. I would just say that I was unhappy he had eaten so much candy, and mention again the reasons why I hadn't wanted him to eat it.

Some other observations:
He probably hasn't ever gotten a tummy ache from eating forbidden candy or cookies, and probably never will, so he's not likely to buy that as a reason to avoid them. You might want think a bit about your REAL reasons for limiting sweets, and how you could explain them to him.

Almost all the examples you gave are about food. I wonder how it would work if you simply let him eat candy or cookies whenever he wanted to (or at least have a lot fewer limits.) Maybe then he'd get over the need to sneak them, and maybe you'd be surprised at how well he'd moderate himself. I don't actually let my kids eat all the sweet stuff they want absolutely whenever they want it, but I don't limit it much. I used to think it could never work to allow kids to just eat whatever they wanted, until I stopped to think about the fact that that's exactly the way I eat, and I've always been healthy and not overweight.

I also agree with the idea that you may just need to rely less on words and more on other ways of preventing these situations.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I think having sweets in the house is just to hard for everyone, me and DH especially. So whenever possible, I would not have them around. If it is for something special like a party, I would try to make it a healthy/wholesome treat that you can make extra of and let him have as much as he wants.

I also appreciate the comments above regarding the word "listening" and trying to explain the real reasons for wanting/not wanting a particular behavior (eating sweets). With the baby I say things are "yucky" or "for Mommy, not Baby" but I'm sure that won't fly for too much longer. I also like the more supervision idea.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I don't like to put the emphasis on "listening" or "not listening," because that really means "obeying," and automatic obedience is not something I want my kids to learn (as convenient as it might be for me if they did.) So in those situations, I wouldn't throw food away as a punishment for not listening; I (ideally) wouldn't even complain about my DS not listening. I would just say that I was unhappy he had eaten so much candy, and mention again the reasons why I hadn't wanted him to eat it.

Some other observations:
He probably hasn't ever gotten a tummy ache from eating forbidden candy or cookies, and probably never will, so he's not likely to buy that as a reason to avoid them. You might want think a bit about your REAL reasons for limiting sweets, and how you could explain them to him.

Almost all the examples you gave are about food. I wonder how it would work if you simply let him eat candy or cookies whenever he wanted to (or at least have a lot fewer limits.) Maybe then he'd get over the need to sneak them, and maybe you'd be surprised at how well he'd moderate himself. I don't actually let my kids eat all the sweet stuff they want absolutely whenever they want it, but I don't limit it much. I used to think it could never work to allow kids to just eat whatever they wanted, until I stopped to think about the fact that that's exactly the way I eat, and I've always been healthy and not overweight.

I also agree with the idea that you may just need to rely less on words and more on other ways of preventing these situations.

This.









Less limiting sweets and more letting him indulge in the holiday season like everyone else!


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## LuckyMommaToo (Aug 14, 2003)

Funny, my four year old DS has also become obsessed with sweets (I think since Halloween). He has already had fillings, so I'm not open to doing unlimited. What's worked for us is to tell him that he gets one treat a day. What it is and when he eats it is up to him. I've also removed all sweets to above the refrigerator, so they're really out of reach.

This is the best compromise I can come up with -- he gets to pick when and what, but not how much. I explained the rule the day before. The next day, he asked for his sweet right after breakfast, and he got it. He asked for something later, I reminded him, and he was fine. It's like now that there's a limit he understands, he's okay.

Good luck!
-Erin


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum*
How would you use GD to respond to outright "disobedience"?

By not expecting outright obedience in the first place.

I would re-examine your rules system, and especially the justifications you have set forth. They are not intentionally deceptive, but they are not true.

Did he get a stomache ache from the cookie that you told him would give him a stomache ache? No? then the consequences you set out are not realistic and therefore will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Will a chocolate bar really make it so he physically cannot eat dinner? Did it? Well then it will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Why should he listen to consequences that do not actually come true, why should he believe future consequences when past ones he was warned about were wrong?

If the sweets are an issue, get rid of them descretly. If the sweets are not an issue, then don't make them into one, or at least carefully choose your words for accuracy, because empty natural consequences are as useless as empty punnishment consequences.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Why are you telling him no and then when you find him with it anyway you allow him "one more bite" or to finish the package? I feel like it's telling him the "consequence" of getting into something you said not to get into is being allowed another taste, which can't be very affective.

I know that for my 4 year old telling her that the candy will give her a tummyache is not something that is going to deter her from doing it again. Heck, I'm 26 and there are times I know something will give me a tummyache and I eat it anyway!


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

What about telling them if they want something they need to bring it to you and ask you before eating it? Instead of just saying the item is always off limits... Would that makes sense GD-wise? Then if they bring something to you you could explain that they can have it after dinner, or just one, or whatever. I love when my DD brings me things that she knows I've told her were off-limits in the past (like change, or paper clips, or something else she could choke on). I would love it if this could continue...


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## AidynElyMama (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm new the GD and just wanted to thank you for great advice in this thread. Really great ideas, the thought of letting them learn by themselves how to mederate is an eye opener for me


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I have not read the other responses so sorry if this is repeating anything.

The first thing that jumps out at me is that he needs more supervision or you need to remove the temptation so it's not even an issue.

I've got a kid who could care less about sweets, but just the other day he took a marker and drew all over his wall and then blamed his imaginary friend. Ugh. So yeah, I guess I let the markers be put down without supervision a bit too soon.









I'm all for preventing temptation or situations where a kid might fail. So I'd recommend throwing out the Dora candy, hiding the cookies really well and pretty much eliminating that temptation for him.


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AidynElyMama* 
I'm new the GD and just wanted to thank you for great advice in this thread. Really great ideas, the thought of letting them learn by themselves how to mederate is an eye opener for me









This is a wonderful idea. Unfortunately medical science has discovered that there are people who do not have the automatic 'off switches' that allow them to self regulate. I cannot self regulate food without literally writing down what I'm allowed to eat and what not. I have an insulin problem(not diabetes) that my dad has too. And when I was small I could eat myself sick and still feel hungry.







:

I would talk more about moderation, about how, we only need just enough of everything. Like, 'one person only needs one bicycle because we can only ride one at a time.' or "our bodies only need a very small bit of sugar, and lots and lots of veggies and (insert healthy food here)" The sillier you make the other things we might have too much of( hair for instance!) thelonger you'll have his attention.









A teacher and father of two small children told me not to be afraid to 'talk over their heads' a bit because you never know how much they actually get, and you want to give them thebenefit of the doubt. I've discovered he's right.

You might also consider that your DS needs more snacks! Hunger can override self discipline in a heartbeat! Maybe when you have to focus on his sib you can sit him near you with a book and a snack?
Dr. Sears says to fill thecompartments of an ice cube traywith assorted healthy things and leave it out for the toddler to have at will. If you can stand the mess, it's worth a try!


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## anthasam (Aug 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
By not expecting outright obedience in the first place.

I would re-examine your rules system, and especially the justifications you have set forth. They are not intentionally deceptive, but they are not true.

Did he get a stomache ache from the cookie that you told him would give him a stomache ache? No? then the consequences you set out are not realistic and therefore will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Will a chocolate bar really make it so he physically cannot eat dinner? Did it? Well then it will have no bearing on his future decisions.

Why should he listen to consequences that do not actually come true, why should he believe future consequences when past ones he was warned about were wrong?

If the sweets are an issue, get rid of them descretly. If the sweets are not an issue, then don't make them into one, or at least carefully choose your words for accuracy, because empty natural consequences are as useless as empty punnishment consequences.


I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.


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## anthasam (Aug 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heidirk* 
I would talk more about moderation, about how, we only need just enough of everything. Like, 'one person only needs one bicycle because we can only ride one at a time.' or "our bodies only need a very small bit of sugar, and lots and lots of veggies and (insert healthy food here)" The sillier you make the other things we might have too much of( hair for instance!) the longer you'll have his attention.










I like this idea, thanks.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anthasam* 
I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.

I know this question was directed at another poster, but I explain to my son that eating too many (cookies, candies, etc) means he might not be hungry for all of the nutritious foods that help build his body. I don't like him to think that certain foods will "harm" him because he is a kid who naturally kind of worries about things like that. I just treat the junky stuff as being neutral.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

My 3.5 year old harrassed me endlessly when there is junk in the house, which used to be never but now is always since my ILs moved in. It's very annoying. I've started gating the kitchen and locking up the cabinets so she can't get access when I'm not looking.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

I DO expect obedience, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I am the parent. My children need guidance, limits, rules and boundaries, and someone to uphold them. I try my darndest to uphold them using means that do not include shaming or corporal punishment, so I still consider myself to be using gentle discipline (or at least trying really hard. I'm not perfect). Just because you might not be on the consensual living side of things doesn't mean you're not gentle.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anthasam* 
I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.

I explain to my kids that there are foods that help their bodies grow and be strong, and give them enough energy to do what they want to do. Other foods give them energy for a short bit, but it doesn't last, and it doesn't help their bodies grow strong and tall. (To which dd (3) asked: "How does it help your body grow?" "Wide," I responded!)

To the OP: might also want to think about relaxing your candy/sweets policy a bit. There's good research that suggests that policing sweets makes kids want to indulge in them more, even if they aren't hungry. Kids who are allowed to largely self regulate learn to self-regulate. Now, I do limit sweets just before dinner, but my reasoning is "I want you to be hungry for dinner". We do try to limit snacks before bedtime to 2, but they're OK with that. And if ds is still hungry after 2 sweet things, then we explain that he probably needs something that will help fill him up and stay with him more. He's got a real sweet tooth. Yet, he's got 2/3 of his Halloween candy left because he doesn't want to eat it all at once!


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I explain to my kids that there are foods that help their bodies grow and be strong, and give them enough energy to do what they want to do. Other foods give them energy for a short bit, but it doesn't last, and it doesn't help their bodies grow strong and tall. (To which dd (3) asked: "How does it help your body grow?" "Wide," I responded!)


I came up with an idea when my two were preschool age and just learning about different types of food. Has anyone seen Richard Simmon's Food Mover? I found one at a thrift store and took that idea and ran with it. I created posters with all the different food groups and how much we should eat of each - there was a row of 8 fruits-n-veggies pictures, a set of 3 dairy...and so on, including 1 sweets and candy. Anytime the kids ate something from the food group, we put a magnet over it and cheered healthy eating.

We didn't use it too long, about 6 months or so, but the visualization really helped to instill good eating habits and moderation in the kids. All of a sudden it wasn't just me talking. It was a plan they could really see.


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## anthasam (Aug 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
I know this question was directed at another poster, but I explain to my son that eating too many (cookies, candies, etc) means he might not be hungry for all of the nutritious foods that help build his body. I don't like him to think that certain foods will "harm" him because he is a kid who naturally kind of worries about things like that. I just treat the junky stuff as being neutral.


I was trying to avoid labeling the junk as bad, but DD asked about it. In our situation, the junk isn't really junk -- it's just not as nutritious as the other food we have. For example, she likes to eat all the breading off my chicken cutlets and then not eat the chicken









Thanks for the ideas!


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## anthasam (Aug 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I explain to my kids that there are foods that help their bodies grow and be strong, and give them enough energy to do what they want to do. Other foods give them energy for a short bit, but it doesn't last, and it doesn't help their bodies grow strong and tall. (To which dd (3) asked: "How does it help your body grow?" "Wide," I responded!)


Good wording, thanks!


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilyGrace* 
I came up with an idea when my two were preschool age and just learning about different types of food. Has anyone seen Richard Simmon's Food Mover? I found one at a thrift store and took that idea and ran with it. I created posters with all the different food groups and how much we should eat of each - there was a row of 8 fruits-n-veggies pictures, a set of 3 dairy...and so on, including 1 sweets and candy. Anytime the kids ate something from the food group, we put a magnet over it and cheered healthy eating.

We didn't use it too long, about 6 months or so, but the visualization really helped to instill good eating habits and moderation in the kids. All of a sudden it wasn't just me talking. It was a plan they could really see.

This is a fabulous idea! I used to have a Food Mover. A coworker borrowed it and I've never seen it again. I loved that because it really helped me do better when I closed those windows. My boys have a decent diet, but they always want me to make a chart or list or schedule or whatever (I think they've gotten some of my anal organization habits







) and this one would be super useful.

Lynn, do you happen to have any links about not limiting sweets and self regulating? I never gave it a thought until I've been spending time here. It makes so much sense to me now (and I know how annoyed I'd feel if someone swooped in and took MY snack saying I didn't need it







). Dh is having a harder time being convinced though. He's all about the scientific research though.


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## nccrunchymama (Dec 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I DO expect obedience, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I am the parent. My children need guidance, limits, rules and boundaries, and someone to uphold them. I try my darndest to uphold them using means that do not include shaming or corporal punishment, so I still consider myself to be using gentle discipline (or at least trying really hard. I'm not perfect). Just because you might not be on the consensual living side of things doesn't mean you're not gentle.

I totally agree! I would certainly remove the temptation and teach moderation, but I think children still need limits and rules. I try to be flexible if it's something minor, but I expect dd to follow certain rules to ensure her safety and health and our peace. I try to follow the same rules that I expect of her. If I break a rule, I fess up and take my consequences just as I expect of her. Rules and obedience CAN be gentle.


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## EyesOfTheWorld (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heidirk* 
This is a wonderful idea. Unfortunately medical science has discovered that there are people who do not have the automatic 'off switches' that allow them to self regulate. I cannot self regulate food without literally writing down what I'm allowed to eat and what not. I have an insulin problem(not diabetes) that my dad has too. And when I was small I could eat myself sick and still feel hungry.

I'm the same way. As an adult if I don't pay tons of attention and discipline myself, I will eat and eat until I am physically ill. I can't even have it in the house. I allow myself to indulge when we're out at a friend's house or restaurant. My DH even knows not to bring anything sweet into the house.

This is the same reason I'd never give my children unlimited access to sweets. We do the snack tray available through out the day with fruits, veggies, squares of whole wheat bread and cheese. It works wonders for the kids (I notice SUCH a difference in them if they don't have plenty to eat through out the day) and me too.


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Seems like this is less about obedience and more about impulse control, desire for sweets, believing that there is no good reason to wait, etc.

Personally, I'd only keep enough sweets in the house for a week, put all of his in a box, and tell him that these are his treats for the week (or do it day-by-day, if you like) and that he can decide whether to ration them or eat them all at once or a little bit of both.

I'd also keep much less junk food in the house, especially in accessible places!

Countless adults have to limit the amount of junk food in their own homes, because they have poor impulse control, and they UNDERSTAND the impact of eating to much. Why should a four year old, who doesn't understand the full impact, be expected to exercise greater impulse control? Especially when he knows where these foods are!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yes, and lots of us adults who have trouble have kids who've been given freedom and they don't have trouble at all.

More here, if you're interested:
http://sandradodd.com/food


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

I really don't like any kind of struggles over food- what we did when I saw that high simple sugar foods were part of a problem in our house was to stop buying and making simple sugar foods--or only have them occasionally and occasionally then it is consumed soon after it is made or purchased--
something that my mother did when I was probably about 18 months and didn't want to eat dinner because I saw the strawberries - she put the berries in with the other food--
and I think that this is a point could it be added to the main meal and still be palatable and healthy. Children burn quite a few calories for such little bodies but they don't really need the simple sugars that do not have other nutrients- fruits can have quite a few carbs but also have other nutrients and fiber --
the other thing is I serve meals and snacks to kids-- kids may get hungry sooner than I do- and need a small pick me up between meals waiting too long on an adult's schedule can be hard on a kid

there is the LLL cookbook whole foods for the family- and it has basic foods with less processing-- I know you were asking about behavior but I think behavior starts with how we are nourished--


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ruhbehka* 
Countless adults have to limit the amount of junk food in their own homes, because they have poor impulse control, and they UNDERSTAND the impact of eating to much. Why should a four year old, who doesn't understand the full impact, be expected to exercise greater impulse control? Especially when he knows where these foods are!

ITA. I would keep less stuff like this around. If it is around, I'd let him try to self regulate with it. It might help you if you know there is a limited amount for him to work with. One day, he might eat all of the cookies and another day he might realize that he just wants one or two and knows he can have more later if he chooses. But if it isn't always around, it won't be a constant issue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yes, and lots of us adults who have trouble have kids who've been given freedom and they don't have trouble at all.http://sandradodd.com/food

I wasn't regulated with food at all as a kid and I overindulge with sugar. Sugar acts like a drug in the body and for some of us it leaves us wanting more and more. I try not to have stuff like that in the house because in a moment of weakness I will eat everything and feel sick. Knowing that it will make me feel sick does nothing to stop me from eating it.

I really think this depends on individual kiddos and temperment. My oldest is amazing with self-regulating. He chooses healthy foods to eat and is very moderate with sweets. I think this is partly to do with us allowing him to decide on his own, but I think more has to do with his own body and temperment.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

: We tell 2.5 y.o. dd that sweets are a sometimes food and that fruits/veg/healthy food help her grow. We make a big hilarious deal about how she'll get big and strong from the healthy stuff, they are the building blocks for her body. The building blocks imagery really seems to work for her.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

What's worked well for my 10 yo is to totally eliminate all the foods from the house that I didn't want her to have, including some foods that others eat to be "healthy" - dairy, for example. That way, it's truly never been an issue and she can self-regulate fine with Halloween candy and holiday baking. She thinks she doesn't like sweets very much because she didn't have any refined sugar until she was three and so now it really impacts her. I think that's a good thing.

These threads always give me a lot to think about in terms of controlling what our kids have access to. I do realize that now that my two year old has tasted a cookie and knows the word cookie, she will ask for a cookie. If she didn't know the word cookie or have the experience of eating a cookie, she wouldn't ask for one and we wouldn't have to have a conflict about it. I think that's the true meaning of preventing power struggles. I don't really know how fair it is to have sweets in the house and expect our kids to follow arbitrary rules about when we eat those foods. In my house, my kids can essentially have whatever they want whenever they want it as I examine my "rules" about food. Chicken for breakfast? OK! This feels fine to me, though, since I don't keep sweets in the house as a rule.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

What's worked well for my 10 yo is to totally eliminate all the foods from the house that I didn't want her to have, including some foods that others eat to be "healthy" - dairy, for example. That way, it's truly never been an issue and she can self-regulate fine with Halloween candy and holiday baking. She thinks she doesn't like sweets very much because she didn't have any refined sugar until she was three and so now it really impacts her. I think that's a good thing.

These threads always give me a lot to think about in terms of controlling what our kids have access to.*I do realize that now that my two year old has tasted a cookie and knows the word cookie, she will ask for a cookie. If she didn't know the word cookie or have the experience of eating a cookie, she wouldn't ask for one and we wouldn't have to have a conflict about it. I think that's the true meaning of preventing power struggles.I don't really know how fair it is to have sweets in the house and expect our kids to follow arbitrary rules about when we eat those foods.* In my house, my kids can essentially have whatever they want whenever they want it as I examine my "rules" about food. Chicken for breakfast? OK! This feels fine to me, though, since I don't keep sweets in the house as a rule.
I've had a very similar experience. I particularly agree with the bold part. For me personally, it just didn't make sense to have foods in the house that would tempt a family member yet create lots of rules and consequences if they went for it. Especially in the years prior to ds being old enough to engage in very introspective conversation, I just did not set him up to fail. I did not keep foods in the house (that he knew about) which might pose a difficult temptation for him. Why would I do that? I couldn't justify the anxiety and frustration it caused for him.

Now as he grew older we reached understandings and agreements and he could tolerate a more complex view of the issue.

But at the age of 3/4/5/6 that just was beyond his ability. If he couldn't have sweets I didn't keep them around. Or, I hid them so well he never knew what he was missing *LOL*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
I know this question was directed at another poster, but I explain to my son that eating too many (cookies, candies, etc) means he might not be hungry for all of the nutritious foods that help build his body. I don't like him to think that certain foods will "harm" him because he is a kid who naturally kind of worries about things like that. I just treat the junky stuff as being neutral.

I do this. However, I do also try to help the kids, dd in particular (because the effect is most pronounced with her), to make the connection between too much sugary stuff and not feeling that great. DD will get really wired, and impossible to settle down, if she has too many sweets. She doesn't like being like that, and it's hard on everyone around her. So, I'm trying to help her understand that the candy/cookies/whatever are part of what's causing it. I want her to know that, because I'm not always going to be there to put the box of cookies out of reach, yk?

(We had one of these yesterday. The kids were at the table, just playing with some water and stuff...and dd slipped into the kitchen and brought out the tin of butter cookies. They polished them off, but there were only five left. I just told her she wasn't going to get one after lunch, as earlier promised, because they were all gone, and left it at that.)


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## leakyandsnort (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anthasam* 
I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.

Just like that: Sugar is not a healthy growing food. [insert food] is.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anthasam* 
I completely agree with your post. However, how would you explain complex diet-related consequences to a young (say 3 yo) child? I explain that foods like veggies and fruit, cheese, etc are good for her and make her grow, etc but I have trouble explaining the whole "too much sugar is bad" thing.


Ds had some major issues with yeast when he was younger, and I totally cut sugar out or my diet for months while I was bf him because of all of his allergy issues. It wasn't until I weaned him and tried refined sugar again that I realized just how awful it made me feel! So we keep refined sugar out of the house, and I make lighty sweetened cookies, cakes etc with honey, maple syrup, or fruit. When we go out, though, if he wants something he's free to have it (as long as there are no nuts). He realized himself that sugar made him feel bad by eating however much he wanted when we were out. Now all I have to say is "that has a lot of sugar" and he will decide if he wants it (sometimes no, or if he does he often doesn't finish it). That said however, if we are really yeasty to begin with, this doesn't work as well. I know I'm having yeast issues when I can down two pieces of chocolate cake with icing and feel nothing. We use daily probiotics for all of us to try to prevent those uncontrollable, hard to limit sugar cravings from happening.


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## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

Hey - OP here, just wanted to thank everyone for the great replies. I can really see how I was causing the problem by even having this crap in the house. I still would love to hear your thoughts on this behaviour if it's non food related, (like the "okay, I won't listen..." comment) but more on that in a minute.

About the food thing, the funny thing is that we gave DS free reign on his easter chocolate and he regulated his intake very well, just a small bite here and there every few days. We ended up throwing most of it out after several months. We did the same at Xmas and he is again self-regulating well. I realize that my expectations on the Dora candy and limiting the halloween candy werent' realistic. I didnt' want him to have the dora candy b/c it has food colouring in it that makes him crazy. I just shouldn't have it in the house! DH was the one who wanted to limit his halloween candy intake, not I. I think allowing him to self-regulate works better! The more forbidden it is the more he wants...

So back to the original question - how do you handle in a GD way when your child does the opposite of what you ask, on purpose. The example I gave was that I asked him to come and get in the car, baby was crying, it was cold, he didn't come and said to me, "okay, I won't listen".

Another example, he was trying to pour milk from his cereal bowl in to a cup. I asked him to stop, told him I didn't want a big mess, told him he could play "pouring" with water at the sink, but please stop what he was doing. He said, "no, I want to do this". Poured it, it went everywhere = angry mom and big mess. Arg!

Another example, I ask him to stop making loud sounds (like shreiking) b/c the baby is sleeping, and I tell him we'll go play downstairs together. He says, "okay, I'll wake him up" and goes in and yells at the baby to wake up.







. It's like he does the opposite of what I ask. It's like he is purposefully NOT listening. Ack!

Any suggestions?

Kathy


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Hmm......it sounds like he's testing his boundaries to make sure they're still there, mama. I have a question for you - what do you do when you say 'don't pour the milk' or something like that? It's really hard to offer advice sometimes unless you know what doesn't work already, you know?

I'm glad the food situation is much better! It sounds like that's one issue you're relieved to have worked your way through.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

We use time outs, so we might use one or a warning in some of these cases.

For #1, I would tell DS that dad said no and it was wrong to take one. I would be tempted to use a time out but probably would not.

FOR #2, I would also tell DS that those cookies were off limits and express disappointment.

Seeing the pattern of 1, 2, and 3, I would get the sweets out of the house and go sweet free for at least a month or so. I'd have apples and yogurt and other things that are sweet but not candy, etc. etc.

I would also let DS know that things like going on the table and counter are off limits and give a warning that if I saw him doing those things, he would get a time out. I would also tell him that if he wanted something to eat to ask me, or I might give him access to a special area of the kitchen where there are mom-approved snacks he could eat anytime and get himself easily.

And if I found DS with a half eaten candy or cookie after saying no, I would take it away from him and get rid of it.

Best of luck.


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:

So back to the original question - how do you handle in a GD way when your child does the opposite of what you ask, on purpose.
Figure out why he's doing it, then talk about it. Hungry, lonesome, bored, tired, angry, jealous. Emotional education is crucial. He should be familiar with all these words and know what each of these emotions feels like in his body.

With the milk thing. I dunno. I let my 2 yo pour her own milk and put her own jam on her bread. And, yeah, sometimes she makes a mess. But by 4 she'll be pretty proficient. If you really don't want him to do it, why not find a smaller recipient for the milk that he can handle better and that contains less milk to spill?

For the baby example...when did you plan on going downstairs to play? Do you ever tell him something like that and then take 5 minutes to finish something up first? I would have taken him by the hand, said "Let's go play together, just you and me," started to sing a fun song, and taken him downstairs immediately.

For the car, try to make a game of it: race to the car, offer fun music in the car, sing a silly song (works every time for me; get behind the child, pushing gently toward the car and sing: Oh, we're off on an adventure, going in the car, what will we see today, what will we do, I wonder if we'll meet a bear...blah blah blah.) Mothering takes some serious creativity. And, no, I don't always remember that.

In my humble opinion, your expectations for impulse control are way too high.









But when things do happen, take him aside, alone and say something like, "When you wake up the baby it makes me feel very angry. Angry doesn't feel very good inside. I wonder how it makes you feel?" or "What were you feeling when you woke up the baby?" There's always an emotion behind the action. Every time.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'll be watching this thread- I have a friend with a 4yo who's doing the same thing. It seems (from what she says) that he does the opposite of what she asks quite often. What he's doing seems developmentally appropriate (though perhaps not socially acceptable), but I definitely understand how it would be frustrating.
What I mean is, take one thing out- say, the milk pouring- and it's not that big of a deal. If my ds did that, I'd say something like "grrrr...look, now there's a mess that has to be cleaned up." (and yeah, I'd be frustrated). But if you add it in with 10 other annoying things that happened that hour, it would be rough to respond gently!

So, I'd like to have advice for her, to be able to help her brainstorm. I definitely think that punishment is NOT the answer- Imo, it will just perpetuate the cycle. Even if it stops one particular action at a time, the feelings behind those actions will still be alive and well, and needing to be expressed. Like the pp said- figure out *why* he's doing it.

One thing that I've found helpful with my ds, in situation that I know are likely to be difficult, is to talk talk talk to him about it beforehand- lay out my expectations, tell him why, and give him alternative ways to handle the situation. I used to think that was not a good idea (like it would give him ideas he wouldn't have had otherwise), but he responds really well to it. I think he appreciates it.

Also, and I don't know about you, but my friend has wondered if perhaps she has too many rules, and it's just really hard for her 4yo to comply with ALL of them. yk? One idea I had was to have fewer rules, but be very serious about the ones that she does have.
She's also said that she notices that they've spent much less time outside (it's wet and cold here), and that she thinks that he needs more one on one time (she has a 2yo as well).


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## Tanlines (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nccrunchymama* 
I totally agree! I would certainly remove the temptation and teach moderation, but I think children still need limits and rules. I try to be flexible if it's something minor, but I expect dd to follow certain rules to ensure her safety and health and our peace. I try to follow the same rules that I expect of her. If I break a rule, I fess up and take my consequences just as I expect of her. Rules and obedience CAN be gentle.

Very Much Agreed!!


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## Tanlines (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOutThere* 
Figure out why he's doing it, then talk about it. Hungry, lonesome, bored, tired, angry, jealous. Emotional education is crucial. He should be familiar with all these words and know what each of these emotions feels like in his body.

With the milk thing. I dunno. I let my 2 yo pour her own milk and put her own jam on her bread. And, yeah, sometimes she makes a mess. But by 4 she'll be pretty proficient. If you really don't want him to do it, why not find a smaller recipient for the milk that he can handle better and that contains less milk to spill?

For the baby example...when did you plan on going downstairs to play? Do you ever tell him something like that and then take 5 minutes to finish something up first? I would have taken him by the hand, said "Let's go play together, just you and me," started to sing a fun song, and taken him downstairs immediately.

For the car, try to make a game of it: race to the car, offer fun music in the car, sing a silly song (works every time for me; get behind the child, pushing gently toward the car and sing: Oh, we're off on an adventure, going in the car, what will we see today, what will we do, I wonder if we'll meet a bear...blah blah blah.) Mothering takes some serious creativity. And, no, I don't always remember that.

In my humble opinion, your expectations for impulse control are way too high.









But when things do happen, take him aside, alone and say something like, "When you wake up the baby it makes me feel very angry. Angry doesn't feel very good inside. I wonder how it makes you feel?" or "What were you feeling when you woke up the baby?" There's always an emotion behind the action. Every time.

So do you think that if you ask your child not to do something and they don't listen that it's okay? Not being snarky here I just am curious.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanlines* 
So do you think that if you ask your child not to do something and they don't listen that it's okay? Not being snarky here I just am curious.









Well, if you are truly ASKING, then sure. Sometimes the answer is, "no."









I've found that by giving my kids the room to say, 'no,' that the answer is more and more, 'yes.' It's been quite counterintuitive for me, but it's working!


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## Tanlines (Nov 14, 2007)

hmm thats really interesting. You have a lot of patience!


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

: my 3 year old is currently asking for stuff, taking a bite or two, wanting other things, being told no, sneaking other stuff out of the fridge...

I might try the one or two treats a day thing. He is big enough now where I think he can 'get' that. or at LEAST limits like "let's wait till Daddy comes from the store, he always brings cookies and you're going to want to try one..." kind of stuff.

I have been using a lot of out of sight out of mind on the stuff I'd rather he not eat and that works well. It's the one-bite apples, the slicing an orange and it being left to dry out crap that's annoying me now.


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## MamaOutThere (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:

So do you think that if you ask your child not to do something and they don't listen that it's okay? Not being snarky here I just am curious.
I'm not in an okay-not-okay mindset. I'm not in a defiant-compliant mindset. (Not saying you are)

If my child does the opposite of what I ask, I know there is an emotion or need behind the action -- and I address that. We talk a lot about the effects of hunger, fatigue, sugar, a day on the couch, etc. We talk a lot about anger, sadness, lonesomeness, jealousy, the need for some extra love, etc. (We started "loving sessions" when oldest was about 4 or 5. I started by asking if she needed some loving when she was upset or cranky or whatever. Now, at 7 1/2, she comes to me and says, "Mama, can I have some loving?")

If my child uses a tone I don't appreciate I let her know -- and I give the exact words I would like to hear (ie. "next time you could say, 'Mommy, I don't feel like doing that right now'.") , instead of simply saying "don't talk that way" or "that's not nice."


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
So back to the original question - how do you handle in a GD way when your child does the opposite of what you ask, on purpose.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOutThere* 
Figure out why he's doing it, then talk about it. Hungry, lonesome, bored, tired, angry, jealous. Emotional education is crucial. He should be familiar with all these words and know what each of these emotions feels like in his body.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tanlines* 
So do you think that if you ask your child not to do something and they don't listen that it's okay? Not being snarky here I just am curious.









It's not about what is "ok" or "not ok." Humans learn in complex ways. They will question theories and test their own. You will be disappointed if you expect to be obeyed without question, but I don't think that is what a parent should aim for anyway. One should want to raise a child that has learned self-discipline, not blind obedience.


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## auntiehallie (Apr 25, 2005)

you know, having gone through this age with so many boys, i really feel it's a developmental issue. kids this young can not make the leap between what you said not to do and what is okay to do instead. by saying, 'don't' you're asking for them to use their imagination to fill in the blanks ('i can't do. this. but all i have in my mind is - this!') and they aren't able to make such a leap.

it's so much simpler to say what you want than ask them to extrapolate it from your list of *don't* wants. e.g., 'don't splash' becomes, 'keep the water in the tub, please' 'don't run in the parking lot' becomes 'hold my hand, please', 'stop shouting or you'll wake the baby' becomes 'let's play quietly while your brother sleeps'.

this isn't a golden bullet, by any means, but it sure cuts down the misunderstandings.

if you still have trouble when your communication is clearer, then you address those issues separately.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

ITA . . . tell the child what you *want* them to do, not what you want them NOT to do whenever it's at all possible.

OTOH, a lot of times I think they are testing the limits.

The other day my 5yo said, "But, Mommy, you've only asked me 4 times!" when I asked her to do something. It made me realize that I've actually trained my children to wait until the 5th or 6th time I asked them to do something before they act.

Now I'm working on making sure I get their attention and good eye contact, telling them once, and then making sure I follow through with helping them do it. If it's something important enough to ask/tell them to do it, then I need to treat it as important enough to not just keep asking over and over while they play for another 15-20 minutes before I actually follow through in making sure they do it.

They are learning all the time, and one of the things they are learning is exactly how much you mean it when you ask them to do something and whether you really care or not when they don't do it.

As a PP alluded to, also, I think little kids (and many adults!) differentiate between being asked or being told. If I'm asking (which is probably most of the time) I do allow for discussion/debate or even for the child to say no. If I'm telling them something important that I need them to do, then I need to make sure to use words and a tone that convey this.

My husband is actually the one that taught me this. I kept saying, "Would you like to . . . " or "Do you want to . . . " when I was asking him to do something, and he'd just say, "No, not really." Well, he _didn't_ actually have a burning desire to do whatever it was.









I finally learned to just say "Would you be willing to . . . " (which still leaves room for him to say no --appropriate in the vast majority of cases--while at the same time making it less dependent on his mood or desires). There are a lot of times when he certainly doesn't "want" to help me move a heavy object or whatever, but he's willing to. Or I will say, "I need help with this. Could you please do this or that?"

With both my husband and my kids (or anyone else, really), if it's not something that has to be done THAT INSTANT (like grabbing a falling object or child next to them), I try to ask in a way that doesn't require them to drop what they're in the middle of and do it immediately.

I'll say something like, "When you get to a good stopping place" or "When you finish that chapter in your book, then will you please do such-and-such", or give a timeline of when it needs to be done (i.e. "Could you please pick up that game before you get out another toy?" or "Would you please move your toothbrush off the kitchen table before it's time to set the table for dinner in 15 minutes?")

When you tell him something that you really need him to do/not do, can you convey in some way that it's important, and maybe even explain why?


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