# What if you were uncomfortable with..



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I met a new family last night, and I am uncomfortable with the relationship between the ten year old girl and her Step Dad.

They are renting a house on our block. The parents got married in July of this year, but they have been together for three years.

We all hang out in the street at night, so the kids can play, and the parents can.. well, play too.

We met the new neighbors and practically dragged them out to sit in the street with us. We had lawn chairs, drinks, a fire pit.. the whole street party thing. They seemed nice, and the little girl fits in age wise with three of the other girls on the block.

But, the Step dad never let her go. Litterally. He touched and kissed her the whole evening. It was so creepy.

He had her back to his front, and kept his hands on her chest the whole night. He rubbed her stomach, and he kissed her roughly on top of the head about six times. When they sat on a bench, he pulled her in really close, and had both arms wrapped around her. She watched the kids playing, but never attempted to break free from the step dad. She didn't look comfortable either though. She didn't look scared, just like she would rather be sitting normal, or off playing.

The Mom didn't seem bothered by it at all. But, the other moms and a few of the dads were bothered by it.

The other ten year old asked her to come play, She said "Can I?" and the step dad, said, "Why don't you just sit with me for a while". After about an hour and a half, they left to go inside.

Mostly, it just felt "wrong" to me. I just got a bad vibe from them.

What can/should I do? One of the moms is a teacher at the school she should be going to, but she is going to finish the year at her old school. Maybe the teacher mom can look into this at her school?


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## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

Wow...that is really weird. I can totally see why you would be uncomfortable in that situation.

I really do not know how you would proceed in this situation, since I think you would need more than "icky feeling" to call CPS on.

God, I really don't know. I think the only thing you really can do is keep a watchful eye on it, and have the teacher-mom keep a watch too, but on the other hand I would hate for that poor child to be in that situation for one more minute if she is being abused.

That poor girl.

I hope she opens up to someone soon.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I'd mind my own business unless I knew more concretely that something was going on.


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

i would trust your instincts and keep an eye on them.


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## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Just reading that gave me the creeps. I don't know what I'd do.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I would try to find a child abuse or sexual abuse hotline and call them and ask them for advice based on what you saw. I would be inclined to call CPS, but I think you need to get expert advice. I think there is an organization for child sex abuse but I can't remember the name of it.

Thank you for looking out for your young neighbor.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
The other ten year old asked her to come play, She said "Can I?" and the step dad, said, "Why don't you just sit with me for a while".

The whole thing creeps me out, but this part does most of all. So possesive of the poor little girl. I'd definately keep an eye on them.







:


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I would try to find a child abuse or sexual abuse hotline and call them and ask them for advice based on what you saw. I would be inclined to call CPS, but I think you need to get expert advice. I think there is an organization for child sex abuse but I can't remember the name of it.

Thank you for looking out for your young neighbor.


That's a good idea. Yeah, you probably can't call CPS based on a "creepy feeling" but ignoring it is not a good idea either. How weird.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

My gut instinct immediately said that there may be some special need there that might not be obvious to you, but makes peer interaction difficult. I've seen parents of spectrum kids that tend to hold their kids back in similar ways, because they are afraid of meltdowns, especially in unfamiliar situations.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Hm. That is a really tough situation. However, what you are describing sounds VERY unusual and definitely creepy. My neighbor has a nearly ten year old daughter, and I rarely every see her sitting in his lap, or sitting at all, for that matter. I was always running around and playing when I was ten. It just seems very "off". I mean, I guess things could possibly be misconstruted as inappropriate, but...ick.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
My gut instinct immediately said that there may be some special need there that might not be obvious to you, but makes peer interaction difficult. I've seen parents of spectrum kids that tend to hold their kids back in similar ways, because they are afraid of meltdowns, especially in unfamiliar situations.


I thought that too. Since this is the first time we met them, it is possible.

I still just couldn't shake the sick feeling though. Ive never had those thoughts before. I even came home and wondered if maybe he reminded me of someone creepy in my childhood and perhaps I was projecting an experience on this guy.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

O.K, small update.

The other ten year olds on the street. (who have no idea we think Step dad is a creep) are going to invite the new girl out to play. If they continue to keep her from socializing, the teacher mom is going to speak to the counselor at her school. She wont do it right away, since we are all strangers, I don't expect the parents to just send her out the door in a new neighborhood the first time she is invited.

So, far, that is all anybody wants to do about this. I'm fine with that. How does that sound?


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I would try to find a child abuse or sexual abuse hotline and call them and ask them for advice based on what you saw. I would be inclined to call CPS, but I think you need to get expert advice. I think there is an organization for child sex abuse but I can't remember the name of it.

Thank you for looking out for your young neighbor.

This is good advice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
The whole thing creeps me out, but this part does most of all. So possesive of the poor little girl. I'd definately keep an eye on them.







:

Yes, this is creepy. Being possessive and overbearing throws up red flags to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
My gut instinct immediately said that there may be some special need there that might not be obvious to you, but makes peer interaction difficult. I've seen parents of spectrum kids that tend to hold their kids back in similar ways, because they are afraid of meltdowns, especially in unfamiliar situations.

I would agree if it were the biological parent, but it is weird that it is the step-dad.

It seems really off to me and I would really keep an eye on it.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545* 
Hm. That is a really tough situation. However, what you are describing sounds VERY unusual and definitely creepy. My neighbor has a nearly ten year old daughter, and I rarely every see her sitting in his lap, or sitting at all, for that matter. I was always running around and playing when I was ten. It just seems very "off". I mean, I guess things could possibly be misconstruted as inappropriate, but...ick.

At 10 years old I sat on my dad's lap. We also kissed and cuddled.








Some families are more affectionate than others.

That being said, I wasn't there so I can't judge whether or not it was creepy. Also, if they are new to the area and protective I highly doubt that they're going to let their DD go outside and play with the other neighborhood girls they don't know. They could just be a loving and affectionate family who are being protective of their DD or the step-dad could be a real UAV. Tough call.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

ok that was creepy even for me and I have a high tolerance.

Lets say this was not a step dad but biological dad. would you still be creeped out? I would.

the thing that made it so weird for me is that she asked to get up and play and he said no. it doesn't seem she was being punished (agree or disagree with the method at least it would make some sense) so why not let her play. even if it wasn't a sex thing it sounds like he is using her to meet a need in him. not cool.


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

He's probably a pedophile or something but did you consider that maybe they really dislike and disapprove of the families in the neighborhood?

you said you practically dragged them out and forced them to be part of the social scene on your street. You said he wouldn't let her play with the other girls. Maybe he sounded creepy, but maybe he didn't approve of your kids as friends and was keeping her close to minimize the influence.

And now you all are planning to set up a trial to see if they will soon behave according to your expectations of socialization, and if they don't you plan to call the gestapo on them because they don't let their dd socialize *with you.*

Oops. I just realized homeschoolmama suggested all this already.

I can see either possibility, myself. Pedophile or protective.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
you said you practically dragged them out and forced them to be part of the social scene on your street. You said he wouldn't let her play with the other girls. Maybe he sounded creepy, but maybe he didn't approve of your kids as friends and was keeping her close to minimize the influence.

This is exactly what I was thinking.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Sorry...I have a pretty high tolerence too...but this totally icks me out. Keep close watch, please.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

It does sound very creepy.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

The creepiest part to me is that this is her STEP dad. The more I think about it, the odder it seems...


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I can't imagine passing judgment over one instance. I wouldn't have let my child run aroudn with the other kids either. I would let her run around even the second time, maybe not even the third unless they stayed in my yard.

Maybe they just left a bad neighborhood. Maybe the child has gone thorugh something traumatic. Maybe she had special needs. Maybe she has a bad sense of direction.

If mom isn't bothered their may be a reason. I wouldnt immediately jump to pedophile.

Of course, I was there. So, it could have been creepy.

(Or maybe they are like family on The Burbs! Is one of them a Dr???)


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

I thought this was a bit creepy. But I also thought that maybe they are just more affectionate then what you are used to. Personally, I kiss and hug my DD CONSTANTLY!!! (allthough she is only 19mo old,,,,haha) But I can't see myself stopping that just because she gets older. I can, however, see her pulling away when reaching a certain age. I agree that there could be some special cercumstances there that you are not yet aware of, but it seems that if the child is asking to get up and play, she should be allowed to do that, ESPECIALLY if there are special needs present. If she was feeling comfurtable with her peers, and wanting to participate, the parents should too.
The thing that stands out to me the most, is that the mother didn't seem to be phased by this at all. This tells me that she is used to this going on, and has become immune to it. Maybe she sees it as a good thing: step dad showing love. But the notion that they didn't want her associating with the other kids kinda goes out the window for me if mom was acting casual. Also, they could have politely said 'no' if that was the case.
I would keep an eye open for sure. Also wouldn't want to say or do anything to stumble someone else, incase ther is a situation you are not aware of. I agree with the other posters that this is a tough call. GOOD LUCK.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
I can't imagine passing judgment over one instance. I wouldn't have let my child run aroudn with the other kids either. I would let her run around even the second time, maybe not even the third unless they stayed in my yard.

I'm imagining a situation where the kids are in sight of the adults. You seriously wouldn't allow your 10 year old to play with other children in this circumstance?

Or are you picturing it differently?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I jsut htought of something. What if it was the mother that was that affectionate. Would it have seemed weird? We talk about how mom and dad are equal parents but one has to be less affectionate than the other? I know it was a step parent but maybe it is the only dad she's had.

There is has to be more to it than that. I just woulnd't want to see a new neighborhood ruined because neighbors didn't like how the family interacted.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I'm imagining a situation where the kids are in sight of the adults. You seriously wouldn't allow your 10 year old to play with other children in this circumstance?

Or are you picturing it differently?

Granted I don't have a 10 year old, but I wouldn't allow them to leave my sight and preferrably not out of hearing distance. These are kids I don't know. it would also depend on the time of day. Is it dusk or the middle of the afternoon?

I also wouldn't have come outside if I had been presssured to do so.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Definitely sounds very weird to me. But I don't know what I'd do.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

I think you and I are picturing it differently. I'm picturing a small city block (because that's the reality where I live) or a suburban culdesac, where the kids are playing on the sidewalk and in the front yards -- so in hearing and sight of the adults who are sitting outside in the middle of the block. To be honest, in this case I'd say an adult who refused to let their non-special needs 10 year old participate is being overprotective.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Then call me overprotective. In this day and age.....I'd rather be overprotective.

(my best friend growing up wasn't allowed to listen to the theme song of Duck Tails. Why? Because it was "rock music". THAT I consider overprotective.)


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

K.. here's the way I see it.
I had a ... childhood. But this girl was 10. When I was that age, I'd rather be making friends than cuddling with my stepdad. But to each her own right?
The fact that it was her STEPDAD would seriously, seriously bother me. If it were her mom, thats different. but even if it were her Dad.. the fact that he didn't let go of her ONCE, and that he kept his hands on her chest disturbs me. Her chest?? We have 3 girls and my hubby doesn't cuddle them around their chests, their waists - yes. As girls we're taught at young ages that we have PRIVATE parts. Our chests are a part of that group. Eeeewww...
So.. here's what I'd do. Some of you may not agree, but its what I'd do anyways. I'd invite them over for dinner, get some background and a better feel for their family dynamics. If they have an issue with some other families in the neighbourhood, which is a reason suggested for his behaviour, then that won't be a factor at your house right?
If you're not comfortable with that, then I'd call a kids help hotline and get some things to watch out for, but I'm sure whatever they tell you, you'll already know, but at least its a step taken just in case proof is needed in the future KWIM?
I'm really, really glad that you've posted this concern. I hope you find some resolution, one that isn't harmful to this young girl. I think I wanna live in your neighbourhood! Minus the creepy man.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
Then call me overprotective. In this day and age.....I'd rather be overprotective.

(my best friend growing up wasn't allowed to listen to the theme song of Duck Tails. Why? Because it was "rock music". THAT I consider overprotective.)


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmace* 
My gut instinct immediately said that there may be some special need there that might not be obvious to you, but makes peer interaction difficult. I've seen parents of spectrum kids that tend to hold their kids back in similar ways, because they are afraid of meltdowns, especially in unfamiliar situations.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
you said you practically dragged them out and forced them to be part of the social scene on your street. You said he wouldn't let her play with the other girls. Maybe he sounded creepy, but maybe he didn't approve of your kids as friends and was keeping her close to minimize the influence.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolmama* 
The creepiest part to me is that this is her STEP dad. The more I think about it, the odder it seems...

The woman I have known longest in my life (27 years, since we were 5) has a 10 yo, just about to be 11. She's my God-Daughter and I am extremely protective of her.

She became involved with a man about 6 years ago and married him, 2 years ago... He's amazing. He is intuitive and affectionate... I have the sweetest pictures of the two of them hugging, pressing their faces close and "Eskimo" kissing... he holds hands with her all the time, and swims with her on his back, carries her like a damsel in distress, gives her light touches to help her relax, massages to help her back-pain... all manner of things _you_ might term as inappropriate. Which is sad. Because her mom, my best-oldest friend, has boarderline personality disorder and while things all look fine with her on the surface, no one knows that she has done horrible things to herself and her family in the throes of her illness and thankfully she is on medication that tempers her symptoms. HE is the one that dgd can go to for all the emotional availability, HE is the litmus test for guaging the many new situations they've faced in 5 moves and much family drama, and the way MOM will deal with all the newness, filtering interactions, sheilding them from the many difficulties a family like theirs faces.

What if the move had been very traumatic for them, what if the girl has social anxiety and once she's with the peers, freaks out and has horrible nightmares, later... ? What if there _is_ some spcial needs imbalance that would have surfaced only after she was engaging (at night, I presume, even if within eyes/ears of parents...) with new kids? What if he was acting in her best interest because of the things HE knows about her as her FATHER?

From the outside, you NEVER know what the story is... there is every possibility that they're bonded and this was just them finding their "way" in a new situation.

The judgement going on here based on witnessing a step-parent being loving and hands-on in his affection is appallingly puritanical. Seriously... if it was mom it would be ok? If it was bio-dad it's okay? But, what, a step-parent isn't allowed to have an attachment and be loving? A step-parent needs to be hands off? Why? To make _you_ comfortable?

Right around the time I started puberty, my dad (step, originally at the age of 4 and then he adopted us when I was 5) suddenly became terrified of me. He wouldn't hold my hand anymore or kiss me or cuddle me... I have always held that with pain. It felt as though he was mad at me or I had done something wrong.

Until there is something REALLY creepy (like mom or daughter showing clear signs of abuse or something) I will applaud any Father (be him step or bio) for showing his adolescent girl unconditional love.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
*He's probably a pedophile* or something but did you consider that maybe they really dislike and disapprove of the families in the neighborhood?

you said you practically dragged them out and forced them to be part of the social scene on your street. You said he wouldn't let her play with the other girls. Maybe he sounded creepy, but maybe he didn't approve of your kids as friends and was keeping her close to minimize the influence.

And now you all are planning to set up a trial to see if they will soon behave according to your expectations of socialization, and if they don't you plan to call the gestapo on them because they don't let their dd socialize *with you.*

Oops. I just realized homeschoolmama suggested all this already.

I can see either possibility, myself. Pedophile or protective.

What?? This is the most logical conclusion? That's a pretty big accusation to put on someone you've never even met.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

seriously...


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
What?? This is the most logical conclusion? That's a pretty big accusation to put on someone you've never even met.

I thought that was tongue in cheek.


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## soygurl (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I would be inclined to call CPS, but I think you need to get expert advice. I think there is an organization for child sex abuse but I can't remember the name of it.

Was this it? StopItNow.com

I'm with those who think it sounds creepy. _Step_father, hands on her _chest_, not letting go of her when she asked to play, etc. all sounds WAY creepy to me.

its_our_family: have you read "protecting the gift"?


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Reading your story gave me the creeps. I was abused by my stepdad and that's what he used to do to me. He kept me away from people as much as he could and he didn't seem to care to hide his "affection" in public. Your story reminds me of him









Maybe he's overprotective, but it sounds really suspect to me. Since everyone was kind of creeped out by it, then all of you can just pay attention and act when you feel it becomes necessary.

Good for you for paying attention to your instincts. I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but don't let your daughter go over there and into the house. Let them play in the yard.

Our instincts are very powerful things.

Lisa


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
I thought that was tongue in cheek.

pedophilia and child sex abuse are not really things to be jokey about

My mom loves my step brother and sister as much as she loves me. In fact, because her partner (their biodad) is not abusive, she is more able to love on them than she ever was for me. I doubt anyone would ever think that she was being inappropriate. Is that because she's female? Sure hope not, but I've read a few threads here that made me gasp in shock and anger on that issue.
10 is an very different age for different kids. It's really on the cusp of child and pre-teen. There are some who are starting to have real crushes and get into grooming and fashion and there are some that are content to play with dolls and easy bake ovens.
The stepdad could very well be a creep, but it's very dangerous to just assume he is. Calling cps could really hurt the family and give him an unwarranted reputation that he will never be able to shake.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Before I contacted CPS or any other official organization I would invite the mom for coffee or something and talk to her. I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on ONE forced social interaction.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama* 
Before I contacted CPS or any other official organization I would invite the mom for coffee or something and talk to her. I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on ONE forced social interaction.

I totally agree with that and other posts along that line...


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

I don't think anyone was suggesting spreading a bunch of rumors, I think the OP is just trying to find the truth of the matter.
And in my opinion, its ALOT more dangerous to assume he's not a pedophile. I know how badly a lie like that can hurt a family, I went through that with an uncle of mine who was falsely accused of molestation. But in my experience, this childs future safety is worth a question or two to someone with some authority over the situation. I've heard "If only we could have done something to stop it earlier" too often. If the behaviour is suspect, then investigate. You can't heal those kind of scars.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Go ahead and call me paranoid, but there have been ALOT of molestation cases where the partner knew what was happening but didn't report it. Don't just take someone's word for it.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
Go ahead and call me paranoid, but there have been ALOT of molestation cases where the partner knew what was happening but didn't report it. Don't just take someone's word for it.

true dat.

A lot of parents ignore it. When the child tells the mother, mother accuses the child of LYING.







Shocking but true.

Completely creepy and inappropriate. This is the step father. WTH.

I'm with Lisa49... if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck... must be a duck.


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## RileysmamaNM (May 10, 2007)

I would keep a strong eye out.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

These things are always so difficult. You don't want to be assuming stuff but you also can't ignore something you feel or take notice of.

My husband is a step father to my children. Though my Dd cannot remember a time before he and I were married so to her he's just always been here. We are a pretty darn affectionate family. We respect that the kids are older these days (which mostly amounts to a lot of knocking on doors before opening them lol), but we still hug, kiss, and all that stuff. My 16 year old son kisses me on the cheek or the head without fail every single day, and my almost 14 year old could easily be seen sitting with her legs flung over her dad's on the sofa watching a movie or with him lying on her bed with her talking. I hate that we look at those things and get itchy.









I do understand that there are so many sitations that are truly abusive though, and that's why we wonder even about stuff that should be normal. The part that would bother me the most was him asking her to stay with him rather than play, but there could be stuff we don't know about.

In the OP's case, I think the best you can do for now is just get to know them like neighbors do. If later it seems that something is still not quite right it might be best to take some action. At this point it's just too early to tell.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolmama* 
The creepiest part to me is that this is her STEP dad. The more I think about it, the odder it seems...

I was a bit put off by the details of this story, but I have to respond to the issue of it being the "step dad".

My husband is extremely close to my 10 yr old daughter. She likes to sit with him in the lazy chair and watch tv. She enjoys rough-housing and playing chase through the house. She loves to ride his motorcycle with him. They are very close with each other, and it is nothing for her to sit in his lap or for him to kiss her on her head as he walks by her.

He is her protector, her father in every sense of the word except biologically.

I *totally* understand why you would want to keep an eye on the situation you described, but can we be careful not to paint all loving and affectionate step-dads with the child-abuser brush?


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
To be honest, in this case I'd say an adult who refused to let their non-special needs 10 year old participate is being overprotective.

I agree with this...


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjanelles* 
I was a bit put off by the details of this story, but I have to respond to the issue of it being the "step dad".

My husband is extremely close to my 10 yr old daughter. She likes to sit with him in the lazy chair and watch tv. She enjoys rough-housing and playing chase through the house. She loves to ride his motorcycle with him. They are very close with each other, and it is nothing for her to sit in his lap or for him to kiss her on her head as he walks by her.

He is her protector, her father in every sense of the word except biologically.

I *totally* understand why you would want to keep an eye on the situation you described, but can we be careful not to paint all loving and affectionate step-dads with the child-abuser brush?

I'm sorry if I offended you by my statement, not my intention.








I shouldn't assume that because he's the "step dad" it's questionable. I was not trying to say that simply because they are not the biological parent they can't display loving, affectionate behavior that would otherwise be seen as acceptable.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 
A step-parent needs to be hands off? Why? To make _you_ comfortable?

Right around the time I started puberty, my dad (step, originally at the age of 4 and then he adopted us when I was 5) suddenly became terrified of me. He wouldn't hold my hand anymore or kiss me or cuddle me... I have always held that with pain. It felt as though he was mad at me or I had done something wrong.

Until there is something REALLY creepy (like mom or daughter showing clear signs of abuse or something) I will applaud any Father (be him step or bio) for showing his adolescent girl unconditional love.

There are 12 years difference between my sister and myself. (I also have two brothers around her age,
I was a oops baby). My sister said that around puberty my dad also became very hands off. It hurt her
feelings, and she shared this with my dad later in life. I'm so glad she shared that with him cause with
me he never did that. Maybe it was the talk they had, maybe in those 12 years between us he fathered
differently. My Dad hugs and kisses all his kids still, I'm the youngest at 32 now.

I do believe I would be a different person without the affection from my Dad, and I would hope that if
I get married someday that my dh could be affectionate with my dd without people thinking it's weird
without them being biologically related.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjanelles* 
I *totally* understand why you would want to keep an eye on the situation you described, but can we be careful not to paint all loving and affectionate step-dads with the child-abuser brush?









:


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

nextcommercial said:


> Okay, let's reiterate what the OP mentioned, because it becomes cumulative:
> 
> 1) _I am uncomfortable_ with the relationship between the ten year old girl and her Step Dad.
> 
> ...


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Excellent post, Viewfinder!

For me it's the gut feeling the OP has. I bet if the man hadn't laid a hand on the girl, if the man were her bio father, if he had seemed cold and unloving, whatever--that that gut feeling would still be there! Listen to your gut! When you suspect that something is "off," it generally is. Not necessarily abuse, but maybe drugs, lies, secrecy....something.

I'd rather cut contact with a family (and have) to protect my children from *potential* harm, than ignore my gut to make nicey-nice with some strangers who might ruin my kids' lives. Standing idle, being polite and waiting for the other shoe to drop isn't something I'm willing to do. I'm not going to call CPS or anything, but I'm not going around people who creep me out and who I suspect of victimizing their children. Better to have to apologize to the family later for being rude/stand-offish, than have to deal with the devestation of kids who've been abused.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
I just thought of something. What if it was the mother that was that affectionate. Would it have seemed weird?

yes. it would still seem weird. She is 10 for crying out loud. I do not stand around groping and smooching up my 10 year old and we are seriously affectionate people. and if my dd says she wants to get up and play with all the other kids playing then by all means I encourage her. and she has social issues. These parents sound off even if tit is all perfectly innocent. She is not there to meet their needs.

10 year old girls are pubescent. there just comes a time where everyone, especially men have to back off. touching the chest is inappropriate at that point. What if your dad came up and touched your breasts? what if he held you down and kissed you for an hour when what you really wanted to do was hang out with your friends? would that be ok? at what point does it stop being ok? if not puberty then when?

And as far as sexually weird goes . . if my husband had been doing all that to me (let alone my dad) I would be creeped out. I mean gees. can you not give it a rest for 60 minutes.

At the very least the parents sound insecure and like they were using their dd as a shield or buffer. Like he needed someone comfortable he could focus on beside the other adults. Not criminal but far from healthy.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I would be inclined to keep an eye on it. I am not sure I would try to "ambush" or report anything yet.

One thing I thought of which is a spin-off of the "maybe they were uncomfortable" idea, were they drinking too? If not, is it possible they/he was uncomfortable with the adults drinking? I would never have thought of this before but I have read threads on here where people report thinking it is 100% unacceptable to drink in front of children. Perhaps he/they were of the same opinion. Perhaps they were concerned about their child witnessing alcohol consumption (leaving within 1.5 hours, having to be "dragged" over there) and felt the situation was unsafe/unsupervised due to the drinking? Maybe some of the parents on MDC that feel this way might chime in with how they would have handled the situation?

FTR, I do not think responsible drinking around children is a problem.


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## Cate (Oct 2, 2005)

The way I see it is, that keeping an eye on things, and making an anonymous phone call to a professional organization to ask for advice, without mentioning any names, is unlikely to have any detrimental effects. Doing nothing, however, could potentially be devastating to that little girl if something is going on.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I would be inclined to keep an eye on it. I am not sure I would try to "ambush" or report anything yet.

One thing I thought of which is a spin-off of the "maybe they were uncomfortable" idea, were they drinking too? If not, is it possible they/he was uncomfortable with the adults drinking? I would never have thought of this before but I have read threads on here where people report thinking it is 100% unacceptable to drink in front of children. Perhaps he/they were of the same opinion. Perhaps they were concerned about their child witnessing alcohol consumption (leaving within 1.5 hours, having to be "dragged" over there) and felt the situation was unsafe/unsupervised due to the drinking? Maybe some of the parents on MDC that feel this way might chime in with how they would have handled the situation?

FTR, I do not think responsible drinking around children is a problem.

This is a good point. I didn't think of this right away either. I also think responsible drinking around children is not of concern, but if I did, I would RATHER my child go off and play with the other children, then sit and get a close up veiw of the adult chatter and tipsyness. After all, if her parents weren't drinking, they could be sure to keep a good eye on her.

Veiwfinder- good post. Totally agree with you on this. After reading it back, we lost site of some of what the OP had said. Touching chest, stomach, and the like are NOT appropriate at 10. 10 year old girls are very much self concious of the ever growing changes in their bodies.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

What if, like a lot of mainstream parents, he had "grounded" her? And she had to stay with him at the party but he was hugging her and kissing her so she wouldn't be totally miserable?

I am just presenting a different scenario. There is no way to tell what is really going on. Just be alert when you see them again.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrennaMama* 

From the outside, you NEVER know what the story is... there is every possibility that they're bonded and this was just them finding their "way" in a new situation.


Good post.

Although I am a little disturbed by the physical contact, especially as his hands appeared to be placed on her chest/stomach. Also, it would have been nice for him to respect her enough to trust any decision that she may have made in regards to playing with the other children.

Peace


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## Greenmama13 (Nov 24, 2006)

I believe that in most states you can report suspicions of child abuse anonymously to child protective services.

I thought your story was pretty creepy. If he is doing this in public, imagine what he might be doing in private. While I understand some people's views that some families have different levels of intimacy - this sounds like a real boundary issue to me. And, personally, I would rather error on the side of protecting the child than protecting the father. But, I recognize that it is hard to get involved in this sort of thing too.

Please keep us updated about how this is going....


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Viewfinder said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> ...


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I'm imagining a situation where the kids are in sight of the adults. You seriously wouldn't allow your 10 year old to play with other children in this circumstance?

Or are you picturing it differently?

Yes. If the kids go out, the parents go out too. None of the kids is allowed to play outside without at least two adults watching. The parents might be working in the yard, or sitting in lawn chairs doing "car patrol". But, there is always someone outside.

It's also a small street, and there is no reason to come down this street unless you live there, or know someone who does live here. We don't get a lot of traffic.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soygurl* 
Was this it? StopItNow.com

I'm with those who think it sounds creepy. _Step_father, hands on her _chest_, not letting go of her when she asked to play, etc. all sounds WAY creepy to me.

its_our_family: have you read "protecting the gift"?

No, I heard of a place on here called something like Children's Advocacy Centers, or Child Advocacy that was recommended for a girl who had reported she had been molested by a family member. But I didn't bookmark or anything. Anyway, there has to be a resource somewhere where the OP can get good advice. I would consider calling the police's non emergency number and asking them where you could go for further advice about this situation. It may take a few calls but I think it is worth the time to search out feedback from someone who knows their stuff about sexual abuse, and the indicators of it.

Plus, this may or may not be the time to take action but someone really familiar with sexual abuse should be able to give great advice on what other things to watch for or whether it's time to call CPS or another agency NOW.

I don't know what the answer is but I beleive there are people with a lot of experience in this area that can give great help.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
One thing I thought of which is a spin-off of the "maybe they were uncomfortable" idea, were they drinking too? If not, is it possible they/he was uncomfortable with the adults drinking? .

True. We were drinking, and at least one night a week, we all get together and do this. We condsider it responsible drinking, because we only have to walk back into our own garages and put our lawn chairs away.

The Mom was drinking with us though, and she seemed to be having fun. They are still unpacking, and she said it was a wonderful break from what she still needed to get done. So, I assume they aren't completely against it.

I don't actually know if her husband was drinking though. He may have had a beer, but that would have been it.

The other kids are all outside right now riding scooters and bikes. The new girl is not out there, but I don't know if they invited her or not. I would assume they are still trying to settle the house.

Anyway. We are going to keep an eye on this.

Some of your points reminded me of something...

I dated a man who would NEVER let me go. He touched me and hugged me and stared at me every second we were together. I hated it. I couldn't do anything alone. I can't imagine having those feelings when I was ten. Even if this isn't molestation, if he acts like this all the time, it just isn't right to make her feel like she is his possession.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
Calling cps could really hurt the family and give him an unwarranted reputation that he will never be able to shake.

I don't know that much about CPS investigations, but it's still innocent until proven guilty. He'll only get a bad reputation if he is investigated, found suspect, criminally charged and convicted as a sex offender. Otherwise he's an innocent man.

So yes, the stepdad is innocent. I don't see how having CPS or other official interview the stepdaughter will devastate the family if there's nothing wrong going on. The authorities can find out pretty quickly if there's nothing wrong and let's hope there's not.

But if there is something and the OP is right in her feeeling, and does nothing, then this little girl will suffer so very much.

And yes, I feel the fact that it's a Stepdad makes a big differencs. Statistically, stepdads are much more likely to be abusers. That doesn't make this stepdad an abuser, but the odds are higher that he may be.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Viewfinder said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
> ...


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## MissSJ (Oct 23, 2005)

As someone who came from an abusive household here is what I have to say...

I agree it is a wonderful thing when fathers show affection to their daughters throughout their lives but there are definately things that are inappropriate in this situation.

What gives me red flags is that the stepfather had his hands on her the entire time - her chest, her stomach, her back pressed against him. Not appropriate IMO. Also, the fact that he wouldn't let her go play with the other children. My father did this too and it was because he was obsessive and wanted me constantly with him.

PPs do have some good points but I am sure my neighbors rationalized what they knew about our family too. My mother also knew my father was a creep.

It is hard to say exactly what is going on with your new neighbors but what can it hurt calling some type of experts in your community and telling them what you posted here to see what they have to say? IMO it can only help.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I want to add that my mother also knew that I was being abused. Don't assume that if mom's ok with whatever is going on, then nothing's going on.

Heck, neighbors, teachers, friends and family all knew it was going on. CPS visited me several times in school. By the time I realized that all the system could do was to piss him off and embarrass me, I finally stopped telling until I was 16 and just left.

Later, though, I was very touched to realize that so many neighbors and friends of parents were trying to help. Family never tried to help at all, so I guess neighbors are all some kids can hope for.

Lisa


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I don't know that much about CPS investigations, but it's still innocent until proven guilty. He'll only get a bad reputation if he is investigated, found suspect, criminally charged and convicted as a sex offender. Otherwise he's an innocent man.

So yes, the stepdad is innocent. I don't see how having CPS or other official interview the stepdaughter will devastate the family if there's nothing wrong going on. The authorities can find out pretty quickly if there's nothing wrong and let's hope there's not.

But if there is something and the OP is right in her feeeling, and does nothing, then this little girl will suffer so very much.

And yes, I feel the fact that it's a Stepdad makes a big differencs. Statistically, stepdads are much more likely to be abusers. That doesn't make this stepdad an abuser, but the odds are higher that he may be.

legally innocent yes, but even an investigation would make him suspected and the recipient of uncomfortable stares
who do you think will invite the 'suspected child abuser' to the next barbecue? or let their kid have a sleepover at him house?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
legally innocent yes, but even an investigation would make him suspected and the recipient of uncomfortable stares
who do you think will invite the 'suspected child abuser' to the next barbecue? or let their kid have a sleepover at him house?

LMAO! I can promise you, NONE of our kids are going to sleep over at their house. Their child would be more than welcome in our homes though. We would never dream of interrogating the child either.


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## MissSJ (Oct 23, 2005)

To all the posters that mention it would be awful for someone to be viewed as a child abuser but be innocent and the ramifications of that label -

Wouldn't it be better to chance it and try to help the child?

Is it better to not accuse an innocent adult than to potentially help an innocent _child_?

If there were a CPS investigation, would EVERYONE know about the investigation and what it entails?

According to the OP many neighbors witnessed this behavior and were uncomfortable, and though it wasn't stated, probably wondering the same thing the OP did so I am guessing many of them suspect something is going on already and will face some stigmas.

As someone who was in an abusive situation it is hard for me to think of the adults in the family before the child who IMO is helpless...


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## MissSJ (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
legally innocent yes, but even an investigation would make him suspected and the recipient of uncomfortable stares
who do you think will invite the 'suspected child abuser' to the next barbecue? or let their kid have a sleepover at him house?

I'm thinking he is already "suspected" by the neighbors who were out that particular evening.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
What?? This is the most logical conclusion? That's a pretty big accusation to put on someone you've never even met.

Ditto to that. I thought I was the only one who thought this way.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 

I would agree if it were the biological parent, but it is weird that it is the step-dad.

Why? Some step fathers are more involved than biological fathers, and some step fathers have been in the childs life for as long as they can remember.







I realize this child has not known the step father for as long, but still. Thats a blanket statement that seems odd to me.

I vote to stop judging what you don't know. Seriously. Watch them. Get to know them. Perhaps there are reasons you cannot possibly see. CPS? Because she sat with him? And it appears to you that she didn't socialize? Geesh.

No way would I ever put a child or another human being through that unless I was damn sure there was abuse or neglect going on. And yes, this IS coming from a sexual abuse surviver. My biological father molested me from birth to age 9, if that qualifies me to give an opinion.









And no, as far as CPS goes it is guilty until proven innocent. Thats the way child protective services has always been. I do not think ruining someones life, possibly the childs as well on a whim or a creepy feeling is the best course of action.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSJ* 
To all the posters that mention it would be awful for someone to be viewed as a child abuser but be innocent and the ramifications of that label -

Wouldn't it be better to chance it and try to help the child?

Is it better to not accuse an innocent adult than to potentially help an innocent _child_?

If there were a CPS investigation, would EVERYONE know about the investigation and what it entails?

According to the OP many neighbors witnessed this behavior and were uncomfortable, and though it wasn't stated, probably wondering the same thing the OP did so I am guessing many of them suspect something is going on already and will face some stigmas.

As someone who was in an abusive situation it is hard for me to think of the adults in the family before the child who IMO is helpless...

I agree with you. Him being falsely accused is better then if she is being abused, IMO? What other option is there?


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

It could be any one of the reasons posted here, however, if there is any chance at all no matter how slim that this girl is being molested then she needs help.
The consequences of you guys taking action and being wrong is not as great as if you do nothing and she is being abused.

go ahead, get involved.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Why? Some step fathers are more involved than biological fathers, and some step fathers have been in the childs life for as long as they can remember.







I realize this child has not known the step father for as long, but still. Thats a blanket statement that seems odd to me.

I vote to stop judging what you don't know. Seriously. Watch them. Get to know them. Perhaps there are reasons you cannot possibly see. CPS? Because she sat with him? And it appears to you that she didn't socialize? Geesh.

No way would I ever put a child or another human being through that unless I was damn sure there was abuse or neglect going on. And yes, this IS coming from a sexual abuse surviver. My biological father molested me from birth to age 9, if that qualifies me to give an opinion.









And no, as far as CPS goes it is guilty until proven innocent. Thats the way child protective services has always been. I do not think ruining someones life, possibly the childs as well on a whim or a creepy feeling is the best course of action.

What should she watch for? What signs would be a more concrete indication of abuse? Do you really think she will know more by waiting, watching and getting to know the family? If something is happening to her, how likely is it that the op will see more than what she has?

Yeah it really, really sucks that some are falsely accused of sexual abuse but until there is a way to identify who is an abuser then the focus should be about protecting a child.

Would some of you be as comfortable is it was a 10yo niece, or a 10yo friend or how about a 10yo boy?


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
The consequences of you guys taking action and being wrong is not as great as if you do nothing and she is being abused.

Can you promise this?
No, of course you can't. Sometimes being wrong about something like that can have lifelong consequences that are even worse than the possible abuse itself.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
What should she watch for? What signs would be a more concrete indication of abuse? Do you really think she will know more by waiting, watching and getting to know the family? If something is happening to her, how likely is it that the op will see more than what she has?

Yeah it really, really sucks that some are falsely accused of sexual abuse but until there is a way to identify who is an abuser then the focus should be about protecting a child.

Would some of you be as comfortable is it was a 10yo niece, or a 10yo friend or how about a 10yo boy?

Would a creepy feeling be enough for a mandatory reporter? No. Not likely. Feelings, thoughts and hunches are simply not enough. And with good reason! People everywhere would be reporting everyone.

There are many other signs you can look for if you suspect sexual abuse. The FIRST thing I'd do is try to get to know the family. You can't very well see whats going on if you stay 5 houses away and only whisper about them to each other.

I agree, get involved! That doesn't mean get the authorities involved.
It means YOU.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Would a creepy feeling be enough for a mandatory reporter? No. Not likely. Feelings, thoughts and hunches are simply not enough. And with good reason! People everywhere would be reporting everyone.

There are many other signs you can look for if you suspect sexual abuse. The FIRST thing I'd do is try to get to know the family. You can't very well see whats going on if you stay 5 houses away and only whisper about them to each other.

I agree, get involved! That doesn't mean get the authorities involved.
It means YOU.

I would agree with you if it were other forms of abuse but how likely is it that she would see signs of sexual abuse. Can you explain the signs she could look for?


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Would a creepy feeling be enough for a mandatory reporter? No. Not likely. Feelings, thoughts and hunches are simply not enough. And with good reason! People everywhere would be reporting everyone.












Mandated Reporter here! And yes, I have been professionally trained that feelings and hunches *ARE* enough to make a report.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissSJ* 
I'm thinking he is already "suspected" by the neighbors who were out that particular evening.

ITA. Everyone who witnessed the stepdad keeping the girl on his lap with his hands all over her and were creeped out by it are already going to keep their kids away from him. He's already brought on some legitimate concern because of HIS behavior.

Now, people may be mistaken and everything is fine, but the behavior that was witnessed is of legitimate concern as it stands.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 









Mandated Reporter here! And yes, I have been professionally trained that feelings and hunches *ARE* enough to make a report.

Well where I was taught, and according to all the mandated reporters over my lifetime I've spoken with.. it is NOT. Perhaps we have different teachers or experiences.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Well where I was taught, and according to all the mandated reporters over my lifetime I've spoken with.. it is NOT. Perhaps we have different teachers or experiences.


I was taught that you do have to use your good judgment. Obviously if somebody is calling CPS every day w/ some suspicion, not only are they not a good mandated reporter, but won't be taken seriously at some point.

But yes, you can and should use your judgment to discern those "gray area" situations - and I think what is described in the OP is a perfect example.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
I would agree with you if it were other forms of abuse but how likely is it that she would see signs of sexual abuse. Can you explain the signs she could look for?

Which is why I said to get involved. From the outside looking in you might not see much, but from a better vantage point you might see more that would either put her at ease, or warrant more immediate action.

Just google signs of sexual abuse and you can find a million websites. Some things are there now, sure. Like the _possible_ isolation. But it could be that they're new, or that she's grounded, or that she has special needs. My point being, the family hasn't been around that long. Give them a chance to get to know them before condemning them. Its not as if you watched him molest the girl in front of you, or you watched him beat her. I know we all want to save children from horrible abuse, but sometimes there isn't any.

Where you see no harm in coming from calling CPS, I see great harm there. I would much rather be sure before I did something like that. However I would make every effort to get involved in their life. Being another pair of eyes won't hurt, and yet you'll be able to see more.

I had a neighbor a few years ago that I didn't like much. I didn't like her because she seemed like a horrible parent. She screamed at her kids. She spanked them. She was downright nasty to them sometimes. She didn't beat them or molest them, but many people would have called CPS on her if they heard her. Instead, I decided to befriend her. After friendship was established, I came to really like her. I realized she had no role model for parenting. A severe learning disorder kept her from learning about parenting in other ways like books or classes. She also had a mood disorder that wasn't being helped by having so many children so close in age.

I was able to be her friend and open up a dialouge about parenting. I was able to model parenting for her, and show her a gentler more respectful way. I was able to be honest with her and admit to her the times that I messed up, and how it made me feel. She was able to open up to me and trust me because she didn't feel judged.

Today, she's a better parent and a good friend. It was accomplished without CPS involvement.

No, its not sexual abuse. But you don't really know thats whats going on either. My point is, there are other ways to help.. _especially_ if you aren't even sure.

A mandated reporter that sees children in a professional capacity maybe, obviously can't get personally involved with the clients like that. If they suspect, and have a strong reason to call CPS then they should. However we aren't talking about a professional capacity here. We're talking about neighbors. I believe that we can help out people if we just extend ourselves a little bit.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm doing some research, Nature, and looks like hunches and suspicions are reason to report. It says over and over again, "reasonable suspicion" and I remember in my training that they elaborated that not every person's idea of "reasonable suspicion" is the same, but if *you* think something is suspicious you should call.

http://www.capcsac.org/laws
_
"Reasonable Suspicion" occurs when "it is objectively reasonable for a person to entertain such a suspicion, when based upon the facts that could cause a reasonable person in a like position, drawing when appropriate on his or her training and experience, to suspect child abuse." (California Penal Code 11166[a])_

http://www.westchestergov.com/ptk/Mandated.htm

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2002/olrdata/j...002-r-0528.htm

http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/pub...ub1159text.asp
_Reasonable Cause to Suspect
Reasonable cause to suspect child abuse or maltreatment means that, based on your rational observations, professional training and experience, you have a suspicion that the parent or other person legally responsible for a child is responsible for harming that child or placing that child in imminent danger of harm._

ETA: Personally, I agree that calling CPS may do more harm than good. I'm not sure what the answer is, but just saying it is okay to call based on your good faith suspicions.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Nature,

I was sexually abused by several men when I was a child. There were no signs. I was happy, healthy and normal. I didn't even understand what was happening to me.

I appreciate what your saying but while your getting to know a family enough to decide if the stepdad is sexually abusing a child that child could be victimized over and over and over and over.

Isolation in itself wouldn't cause me concern of sexual abuse but the combination from the op case would be clear to me maybe something is not right.

I am very sorry about your history of sexual abuse


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

I never said I didn't see the harm in calling CPS. To me it is the lesser of two evils if a child is being abused.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
I never said I didn't see the harm in calling CPS. To me it is the lesser of two evils if a child is being abused.

And thats kinda where the grey area comes in where you have to trust your own judgment. There is no doubt that the behavior is creepy. Being a survivor I often can "feel" creepy people like that based on nothing but that feeling. I trust intuition.

I only wanted to point out that its possible to help out without CPS. Or at least possible to get to know them further to see. Personally thats what I would do, but then.. I've been on the other side of the coin as well. I've seen how much damage CPS can do, even without substantiated abuse or neglect.

Basically, it just sucks all around. If the step father is gulity of it, its still going to cause major changes for the family. For the best of course. But then the child still has to deal with the impact of being abused. Provided that he's truelly guilty and not falsely accused.

However even if he's found not guilty, the family will most likely be traumatized by the investigation process itself. Its one of those situations where its hard to come out unscathed.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
I can see either possibility, myself. Pedophile or protective.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
legally innocent yes, but even an investigation would make him suspected and the recipient of uncomfortable stares
who do you think will invite the 'suspected child abuser' to the next barbecue? or let their kid have a sleepover at him house?

His actions are making him suspected and the recipient of uncomfortable stares. People are already thinking they don't want this guy around. and I doubt anyone would let their child sleep over.


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## mclisa (Jul 26, 2004)

I would report it. I know CPS gets a bad rap around here, but it can do some good. Just be prepared with as much detail as you can (what you saw exactly, the address of where they live, a phone number if you have it, his name, the mom's name, the child's name.)

Can you tell I've done this before?

The more you can give them, the better.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Why? Some step fathers are more involved than biological fathers, and some step fathers have been in the childs life for as long as they can remember.







I realize this child has not known the step father for as long, but still. Thats a blanket statement that seems odd to me.
.

We're not talking about ALL stepfathers or ANY stepfather or anyone's husband or stepfather, we're talking about THIS PARTICULAR stepfather's behavior, which is raising red flags. Let's stay focused.

(And, some predators date or marry single mothers for the sole purpose of getting at the kids. I don't call those people fathers, though!)

Nextcommercial, I thought of two possible resources -- you could call a children's hospital and ask them for a the name of a good sexual abuse investigator or counselor, or call your district attorney's office and ask them for who they know who is an expert in this kind of thing.

I'd just say that you saw some behavior toward a child that raised red flags but that you want to get the advice of someone who is an expert as to what, if anything, should be done about it. Explain you don't want to cause a family trouble, but that you also don't want to dismiss your concerns without consulting someone who has a lot of experience in this area.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
We're not talking about ALL stepfathers or ANY stepfather or anyone's husband or stepfather, we're talking about THIS PARTICULAR stepfather's behavior, which is raising red flags. Let's stay focused.

(And, some predators date or marry single mothers for the sole purpose of getting at the kids. I don't call those people fathers, though!)

Nextcommercial, I thought of two possible resources -- you could call a children's hospital and ask them for a the name of a good sexual abuse investigator or counselor, or call your district attorney's office and ask them for who they know who is an expert in this kind of thing.

I'd just say that you saw some behavior toward a child that raised red flags but that you want to get the advice of someone who is an expert as to what, if anything, should be done about it. Explain you don't want to cause a family trouble, but that you also don't want to dismiss your concerns without consulting someone who has a lot of experience in this area.

The way it was written it seemed like a blanket statement about step fathers and showing affection. I apologise if it wasn't meant that way. As a blended family, I can honestly say.. my daughters step father is far more loving and affectionate towards her than her biological father is.







They just have different personalities and my dd is closer to her step father.

I think those are good ideas you posted. Though likely they will suggest calling CPS because its usually what most people, even professionals jump to. However, finding someone else to talk to about this is a good idea.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

This may be a longshot, but you could email Gavin deBecker, the author of Protecting the Gift (a must read, by the way), and ask for help there. Or, I'd also even consider emailing Dr. Phil, not that you are going on the show, but I imagine that if your email gets through they will help you because they care about protecting kids. (Do I sound crazy for suggesting that? I just think its important to reach out and find help.)

https://www.gavindebecker.com/contact.cfm

Again, I wish you the best that you find someone qualified to talk to about this and who can help you professionally assess what you saw.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
I think those are good ideas you posted. Though likely they will suggest calling CPS because its usually what most people, even professionals jump to. However, finding someone else to talk to about this is a good idea.

I hope that if its recommended that the OP goes to CPS or the police, then hopefully the third party she talks to might have contacts to get a particularly talented / compassionate investigator.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Well, It may already be an issue with the police. (I left, so I don't know the details yet)

I went outside this morning, and another mom from the block was outside. Mom was looking for her ten year old daughter. Her dd had disappeared again. She has a lot of problems, and tends to take off a lot. But, since this was early in the morning (7:30 am), and her bedroom window was open, she had obviously snuck out last night some time. (they need to lock this kid's windows)

The police had been called, but hadn't gotten there yet.

About that time, she came riding down the road on a skateboard, but it wasn't her skateboard. When her mom asked her where she got the skateboard, she said "Katies Dad said I could use it". (Katie is the new girl) _*not her real name btw*_

So, after sending her dd in the house, I explained what the other neighbors and I had seen the other night. (this family wasn't there last week) I told her that if she needed me to tell the police what we thought about him to come get me, and I was sure the other neighbors would also be willing to talk to them too.

I left an hour later, and I haven't heard anything yet. So, we will see what happens.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Are you saying the 10yo was possibly gone all night?! OMG i'd be freaking out, about the possible predator but also a ten year old that just leaves the house like that. I'll say that parent has issues that need to be handled above and beyond a potential child abuser.


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## ChristineIndy (Jan 3, 2006)

KBecks said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Viewfinder*
> ...


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## ChristineIndy (Jan 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
I want to add that my mother also knew that I was being abused. Don't assume that if mom's ok with whatever is going on, then nothing's going on.

Heck, neighbors, teachers, friends and family all knew it was going on. CPS visited me several times in school. By the time I realized that all the system could do was to piss him off and embarrass me, I finally stopped telling until I was 16 and just left.

Later, though, I was very touched to realize that so many neighbors and friends of parents were trying to help. Family never tried to help at all, so I guess neighbors are all some kids can hope for.

Lisa









I just wanted to say that I am so very sorry this happened to you.


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## ChristineIndy (Jan 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Well, It may already be an issue with the police. (I left, so I don't know the details yet)

I went outside this morning, and another mom from the block was outside. Mom was looking for her ten year old daughter. Her dd had disappeared again. She has a lot of problems, and tends to take off a lot. But, since this was early in the morning (7:30 am), and her bedroom window was open, she had obviously snuck out last night some time. (they need to lock this kid's windows)

The police had been called, but hadn't gotten there yet.

About that time, she came riding down the road on a skateboard, but it wasn't her skateboard. When her mom asked her where she got the skateboard, she said "Katies Dad said I could use it". (Katie is the new girl) _*not her real name btw*_

So, after sending her dd in the house, I explained what the other neighbors and I had seen the other night. (this family wasn't there last week) I told her that if she needed me to tell the police what we thought about him to come get me, and I was sure the other neighbors would also be willing to talk to them too.

I left an hour later, and I haven't heard anything yet. So, we will see what happens.

That sounds worrying for several families, on several fronts.







: I hope it all turned out okay . . .


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Honestly....sounds like the neighbors have already concluded he is a molester.....warning each other about his 'creepy behavior.' Hopefully, you aren't wrong b/c that image won't leave someone's head just b/c he is shown to be a loving step-dad.

He could be off, but the whole tell the neighbors based on nothing more than a gut feeling leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

It seems to me that most molesters don't openingly advertise themselves. If he was a pedophile, then it seems he wouldn't be so open around everyone.

I would be more concerned for the ones that don't seem to fit the profile. The ones that no one would ever suspect.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

OP, I still think YOU need to make a call to someone to ask for advice about the red flags with the daughter.

I see the missing neighbor girl as a mostly separate issue, unless she reports the stepdad was inappropriate with her. The police were called on her behalf because she was missing, and then she was found, so that's kind of a closed deal.

The stepdad-daughter thing isn't connected to that (in terms of police) and you still need to get advice on whether it should be investigated based on what you saw.

I would agree with others who say you should focus on working with authorities vs. discussing these concerns with the neighbors. I think it was right to let your neighbor know though, in case the stepdad was inappropriate with the girl. However, I doubt it would be that right now. IF he were a molester it's unlikely he would do anything right away, KWIM

Hugs and good luck. Call someone who can help you work this out.


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## meaghann (Oct 23, 2007)

These accounts about nextcommercial's new neighbors are very disturbing, esp about the missing girl citing an encounter with this man.

For better or worse, if neighbors don't warn each other, then what are neighbors for? If this happened on my block, I would want to know people's concerns. I could make up my mind for myself.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Why? Some step fathers are more involved than biological fathers, and some step fathers have been in the childs life for as long as they can remember.







I realize this child has not known the step father for as long, but still. Thats a blanket statement that seems odd to me.

I vote to stop judging what you don't know. Seriously. Watch them. Get to know them. Perhaps there are reasons you cannot possibly see. CPS? Because she sat with him? And it appears to you that she didn't socialize? Geesh.

No way would I ever put a child or another human being through that unless I was damn sure there was abuse or neglect going on. And yes, this IS coming from a sexual abuse surviver. My biological father molested me from birth to age 9, if that qualifies me to give an opinion.









And no, as far as CPS goes it is guilty until proven innocent. Thats the way child protective services has always been. I do not think ruining someones life, possibly the childs as well on a whim or a creepy feeling is the best course of action.


The step-father has only been in her life for three years, in this situation or any situation where the step-father has not been around since the child was an infant I would be uncomfortable with it. I may be uncomfortable if it were her father too, it just depends on what my instincts were telling me.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Honestly....sounds like the neighbors have already concluded he is a molester.....warning each other about his 'creepy behavior.' Hopefully, you aren't wrong b/c that image won't leave someone's head just b/c he is shown to be a loving step-dad.

He could be off, but the whole tell the neighbors based on nothing more than a gut feeling leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

It seems to me that most molesters don't openingly advertise themselves. If he was a pedophile, then it seems he wouldn't be so open around everyone.

I would be more concerned for the ones that don't seem to fit the profile. The ones that no one would ever suspect.

I don't totally agree with this. No, pedophiles don't openly advertise that they are pedophiles but there are clear signs and behaviors when they are around the child they are molesting. My niece was molested by her maternal grandfather, before she told anyone I could tell something wasn't right. When there were gatherings that he was at where my niece was too he was obsessed with her. He would not let her out of his sight and tried to hold on to her the entire time. Many people noticed and I talked to my brother (her father) but unfortunately he and his wife didn't think anything of it. Well, it was true, she came out a few months later and told that he was molesting her and my other niece. There were clear indications to people who were listening to their instincts.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't give a flying rat's hindend that he is a step dad.

I would however pay great attention to the way that the person makes you FEEL. The fact is that incest cases are often best judged by a non-involved person feeling like they want a shower after watching the interactions of the people involved. This IS the diagnostic criteria for knowing that the family isn't right.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

So. I took Psychodog out for a walk late last night. I aksed the two neighbors who were out if anything new had happened, they hadn't noticed anything. SO, nobody asked them about the new neighbor I guess. Or the missing ten year old. (I didn't specifically ask that though)

But the teacher neighbor is going to call the school today and talk to her counselor and ask if they could talk among their staff and see if anybody there has any concerns about her.

The teacher neighbor is my daycare parent, and she is very upset over this. SHe said she was sick to her stomach all of Friday night after the incident.

The one guy who is unmarried and has no kids even said he got a sick feeling. (Actually I think he said "Oh great.. Now we have to kick his @$$) <--he was being sarcastic of course.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meaghann* 
These accounts about nextcommercial's new neighbors are very disturbing, esp about the missing girl citing an encounter with this man.

For better or worse, if neighbors don't warn each other, then what are neighbors for? *If this happened on my block, I would want to know people's concerns. I could make up my mind for myself*.









:


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Honestly....sounds like the neighbors have already concluded he is a molester.....warning each other about his 'creepy behavior.' Hopefully, you aren't wrong b/c that image won't leave someone's head just b/c he is shown to be a loving step-dad.

He could be off, but the whole tell the neighbors based on nothing more than a gut feeling leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.


So. If I had this feeling about a neighbor, and you wanted to send your child to that neighbor's house to play. I should keep my concerns to myself? So, as not to start a rumor?

I am not saying that the normal average parent would just send their child to a stranger's house to play. But, many parents would send thier child to play without asking any questions.

What if the other child was molested or even murdered or kidnapped by that neighbor, and I had suspicions about him. Wouldn't I be partially at fault for not saying anything?

It isn't like we went door to door with flyers. A young girl came out of his house at 7:00 a.m with a skateboard that didn't belong to her. So, I told her Mom what we had noticed.

That is still a lot like gossiping, but it isn't really the same thing. It is entirely true, we could be ruining this guy's reputation. But, I think it is his behavior that is causing the concern. Not really us.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
That is still a lot like gossiping, but it isn't really the same thing. It is entirely true, we could be ruining this guy's reputation. But, I think it is his behavior that is causing the concern. Not really us.

I don't know. Honestly, maybe it would be better for you to just call CPS and get it over with. Either way, if he's innocent.. his life is probably going to be pretty crappy whether you call the authorities on him or you just gossip about him to all the neighbors.

When I said get involved, I meant get involved in their life.. not just talk about them.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I don't totally agree with this. No, pedophiles don't openly advertise that they are pedophiles but there are clear signs and behaviors when they are around the child they are molesting. My niece was molested by her maternal grandfather, before she told anyone I could tell something wasn't right. When there were gatherings that he was at where my niece was too he was obsessed with her. He would not let her out of his sight and tried to hold on to her the entire time. Many people noticed and I talked to my brother (her father) but unfortunately he and his wife didn't think anything of it. Well, it was true, she came out a few months later and told that he was molesting her and my other niece. There were clear indications to people who were listening to their instincts.

Thing about the indications......they aren't always there. There are plenty of cases where no one suspected anything and the child came forward later....hence the shock/surprise from those around when they learn that person was a child molester. I agree that there are some cases where there are indicators, but that isn't true for all.

The fact that he seemed closer to the child than the neighbors felt comfortable doesn't translate into he is molesting her. The fact remains that OP has been around the family for one night for a short period of time and has already concluded he is in the wrong. I think it is unreasonable to base an opinion, esp. this kind of opinion, on one encounter with a family the OP knows nothing about.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
So. If I had this feeling about a neighbor, and you wanted to send your child to that neighbor's house to play. I should keep my concerns to myself? So, as not to start a rumor?

I am not saying that the normal average parent would just send their child to a stranger's house to play. But, many parents would send thier child to play without asking any questions.

What if the other child was molested or even murdered or kidnapped by that neighbor, and I had suspicions about him. Wouldn't I be partially at fault for not saying anything?

It isn't like we went door to door with flyers. A young girl came out of his house at 7:00 a.m with a skateboard that didn't belong to her. So, I told her Mom what we had noticed.

That is still a lot like gossiping, but it isn't really the same thing. It is entirely true, we could be ruining this guy's reputation. But, I think it is his behavior that is causing the concern. Not really us.

I see a big difference between I met this family and got an odd vibe from them....let me know what you think and it seems he is molesting his step-daughter. You can advise a neighbor without going into details. I see no point in throwing in the he seems to be a molester stuff in there without more justification....people tend to see what they are advised to see.

I must say your neighborhood must be a lot closer to each other than in my neighborhood. We look out for each other, but the ones who start talking about what the intentions are with this person or that person are typically shut off and ignored. It seems a lot like stirring the pot. Our neighborhood does have a couple of instigators who just like to see people irritated with each other though....that could be clouding my idea of how it is working in your neighborhood.

I think you should invite the family over for dinner....get to know them. I would hate to see a perfectly loving family made into the town's bad seed if there isn't cause.

It could be he is molesting her, but the behavior you describe could also be issues from their past and his protecting her.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
I don't know. Honestly, maybe it would be better for you to just call CPS and get it over with. Either way, if he's innocent.. his life is probably going to be pretty crappy whether you call the authorities on him or you just gossip about him to all the neighbors.

When I said get involved, I meant get involved in their life.. not just talk about them.

I agree.....thing is even if you aren't going all over the neighborhood doesn't mean the other neighbors are not. Can you imagine if someone retaliated against this family b/c of what is perceived by outsiders who no nothing about them?


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
he fact remains that OP has been around the family for one night for a short period of time and has already concluded he is in the wrong. I think it is unreasonable to base an opinion, esp. this kind of opinion, on one encounter with a family the OP knows nothing about.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 

I think you should invite the family over for dinner....get to know them. I would hate to see a perfectly loving family made into the town's bad seed if there isn't cause.

It could be he is molesting her, but the behavior you describe could also be issues from their past and his protecting her.

I agree with this. Getting involved in their life is the best thing you can do. You may come away from the situation with a totally different outlook.

Like I said before, this man didn't molest the girl in front of you. You suspect it because of a feeling. Why not investigate that feeling more by involving yourself? Not all feelings are right. Honestly they aren't. Sometimes we get vibes for different reasons. I'm all for following your gut, but not for hanging someone for a crime you don't even know they committed. And essentionally thats what you're doing. To you, he is already guilty and I simply don't think thats fair to anyone.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

I'd be scared to have someone in my neighborhood who passed judgement like this.

Jake is my step son, I have been around 3 years and I routinely kiss him on the head and rub his back. I also have a daughter, who is my own, but I am just as affectionite with her as I am with Jake. They are my kids.

I don't see many red flags other than your emotions and you should get more evidence then that. I would be LIVID with the person who reported me to CPS after meeting me one time for being affectionite with my kids.

Only meeting someone once is not enough to pass judgement in my opinion, and stating that someone is inappropriate 'more so' because they are a step parent is not only sad, it is wrong. Step parents walk fine lines with kids and take the leads from the kids as to what THEY are comfortable with. You said yourself she was NOT uncomfortable with what was happening, you were. And for some reason with how often the word 'step parent' is being thrown around I don't think you would feel the same if he was her biological father. To me that is hippocritical. We had some mothers on this forum who decided to attack me for calling Jake my kid about a year and a half ago with statemens like "Oh? I didn't know you adopted him!" in a very snarky manner. I can't adopt him, his father 'needs' to claim him every other year as a tax exemption even though he sees Jake literally at most 2 times a year.

But the posters passed judgement that I wasn't the real father.

I may be projecting my own 'step parent' issues on to this, but I don't think so. You have your feelings, you need to see if they are valid. Spend more time with the family, and if you are wary then don't leave your kids alone with them. But to poison the rest of the community and talk gossip about them to me is poor form unless you have alot more evidence and have actually reported them for doing something wrong. Which you haven't.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
The fact remains that OP has been around the family for one night for a short period of time and has already concluded he is in the wrong. I think it is unreasonable to base an opinion, esp. this kind of opinion, on one encounter with a family the OP knows nothing about.

No, the OP has not concluded anything.... except that she saw behaviors that seemed inappropriate. It seems she is concerned there MAY be a problem.

Like I said earlier, it's not the OP's job to have to figure out whether the child is being molested. But it is her job to report red flags to the authorities if she sees them.

I think that a counselor with sex abuse training should be called and consulted, and possibly the authorities / CPS. I'm not sure the school staff are adequately prepared to evaluate this situation either, and I hope it doesn't become gossip. It doesn't seem like that so far.

And, it's not at all about shielding the guy from scrutiny. It's about shielding the daughter from being taken advantage of. His behavior towards her was inappropriate and it should be followed up on with someone who is trained to evaluate these situations.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
I may be projecting my own 'step parent' issues on to this, but I don't think so. You have your feelings, you need to see if they are valid. Spend more time with the family, and if you are wary then don't leave your kids alone with them. But to poison the rest of the community and talk gossip about them to me is poor form unless you have alot more evidence and have actually reported them for doing something wrong. Which you haven't.


Your right that this isn't about you and your family. I'm sorry you've been harassed but that's irrelevant to the OP's concerns.

The OP has not been gossiping, IMO. She told a neighbor whose daughter had been out all night and came home with a skateboard that belonged to a new adult in the neighborhood that that adult had been very touchy feely with his stepdaughter at the neighborhood social.

I think as long as the OP presented the facts without exaggeration, that's not gossip.

Now if the OP goes and tells 25 other people and labels the new adult as a molester, that is gossip, that is lying and that is wrong. But that's not what seems to have happened at all.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
No, the OP has not concluded anything.... except that she saw behaviors that seemed inappropriate. It seems she is concerned there MAY be a problem.

Like I said earlier, it's not the OP's job to have to figure out whether the child is being molested. But it is her job to report red flags to the authorities if she sees them.

I think that a counselor with sex abuse training should be called and consulted, and possibly the authorities / CPS. I'm not sure the school staff are adequately prepared to evaluate this situation either, and I hope it doesn't become gossip. It doesn't seem like that so far.

And, it's not at all about shielding the guy from scrutiny. It's about shielding the daughter from being taken advantage of. His behavior towards her was inappropriate and it should be followed up on with someone who is trained to evaluate these situations.

She is warning other neighbors about him....that seems fairly conclusive.

Your opinion is that his behavior was inappropriate, but that doesn't mean it was.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Your right that this isn't about you and your family. I'm sorry you've been harassed but that's irrelevant to the OP's concerns.

The OP has not been gossiping, IMO. She told a neighbor whose daughter had been out all night and came home with a skateboard that belonged to a new adult in the neighborhood that that adult had been very touchy feely with his stepdaughter at the neighborhood social.

I think as long as the OP presented the facts without exaggeration, that's not gossip.

Now if the OP goes and tells 25 other people and labels the new adult as a molester, that is gossip, that is lying and that is wrong. But that's not what seems to have happened at all.

It is gossip if she has no conclusive evidence he is being inappropriate with the little girl. It was only the opinion of the OP he was 'very touchy feely with his stepdaughter'.....that doesn't mean he was, just that the neighbor wasn't comfortable with him. I am all for gut instincts, but not to the exclusion of those around me.....gut instincts can be wrong.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
I'm all for following your gut, but not for hanging someone for a crime you don't even know they committed. And essentionally thats what you're doing. To you, he is already guilty and I simply don't think thats fair to anyone.

I think that investigating should be left to people whose jobs it is to conduct criminal investigations. And that suspicious behavior should be reported to the authorities who are trained to investigate.

And I don't see how the OP is doing any hanging of the new neighbor.

If she calls the police she is not hanging either, she is expressing her concerns and the police will determine if those concerns are valid or whether they should be dismissed.

And I assume that if there is an investigation and the family is OK, the OP will accept that, be delighted and get on with life. She's not out for blood, but she wants something that doesn't seem quite right to be checked out.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Your right that this isn't about you and your family. I'm sorry you've been harassed but that's irrelevant to the OP's concerns.

The OP has not been gossiping, IMO. She told a neighbor whose daughter had been out all night and came home with a skateboard that belonged to a new adult in the neighborhood that that adult had been very touchy feely with his stepdaughter at the neighborhood social.

I think as long as the OP presented the facts without exaggeration, that's not gossip.

Now if the OP goes and tells 25 other people and labels the new adult as a molester, that is gossip, that is lying and that is wrong. But that's not what seems to have happened at all.


Stating how you feel about something is not a fact, it is gossip in this situation UNLESS you are stating it to the person in question... As for it not being about me, I am JUST STATING HOW THE ORIGINAL POST MADE ME FEEL. But I am stating it to the person who made me feel this way. Just as many other posters here have stated 'that makes me feel creeped out too'

And according to you that is A-OK!









:


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
It is gossip if she has no conclusive evidence he is being inappropriate with the little girl. It was only the opinion of the OP he was 'very touchy feely with his stepdaughter'.....that doesn't mean he was, just that the neighbor wasn't comfortable with him. I am all for gut instincts, but not to the exclusion of those around me.....gut instincts can be wrong.

Let's go back to the orignal post and review the facts as they were reported by the OP.

-----------------------
_......the Step dad *never let her go*. Litterally. He *touched and kissed her the whole evening*. It was so creepy.

He had her back to his front, and *kept his hands on her chest the whole night. He rubbed her stomach,* and he kissed her roughly on top of the head about six times. When they sat on a bench, he pulled her in really close, and had both arms wrapped around her. She watched the kids playing, but never attempted to break free from the step dad. *She didn't look comfortable either though*. She didn't look scared, just like she would rather be sitting normal, or off playing.

The Mom didn't seem bothered by it at all. But, the other moms and a few of the dads were bothered by it.

The other ten year old asked her to come play, She said "Can I?" and the step dad, said, "Why don't you just sit with me for a while"....._
---------------------------------------

OK, if you feel this is appropriate interaction for an adult male with a 10 year old girl, we've got a difference of opinion.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
She is warning other neighbors about him....that seems fairly conclusive.

Your opinion is that his behavior was inappropriate, but that doesn't mean it was.

I would value and trust the opinion of a trained sex abuse investigtor regarding the behavior. If someone with years of professional experince says it's OK, then I'll accept it. Until then, I want that second opinion.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Let's go back to the orignal post and review the facts as they were reported by the OP.

-----------------------
_......the Step dad *never let her go*. Litterally. He *touched and kissed her the whole evening*. It was so creepy.

He had her back to his front, and *kept his hands on her chest the whole night. He rubbed her stomach,* and he kissed her roughly on top of the head about six times. When they sat on a bench, he pulled her in really close, and had both arms wrapped around her. She watched the kids playing, but never attempted to break free from the step dad. *She didn't look comfortable either though*. She didn't look scared, just like she would rather be sitting normal, or off playing.

The Mom didn't seem bothered by it at all. But, the other moms and a few of the dads were bothered by it.

The other ten year old asked her to come play, She said "Can I?" and the step dad, said, "Why don't you just sit with me for a while"....._
---------------------------------------

OK, if you feel this is appropriate interaction for an adult male with a 10 year old girl, we've got a difference of opinion.









You are reading one persons perception. Were you there? And as for what is appropriate for a 10 year old girl? Our opinion is different. I could care less if the 10 year old is a boy or a girl, if they are not UNCOMFORTABLE with the parent child relationship, then it is not your place to judge it.

If the child seems to be in distress, if the child is uncomfortable, or if the child looks to be abused then that is when you report it to CPS. Not the neighborhood.

I hope my kids still snuggle me when they are 10. I know I snuggled my dad until I was 12 and my brother who was 15 made fun of me for it. As for kissing on the head and face? That is also to comfort level. I am not comfortable kissing ANYONE on the lips other than my DP and my mom. Still today I kiss my mom on the lips. Is that any more inappropriate? I kissed my mom on the lips my entire life, and my DP kissed her father on the lips until he passed away a couple years ago.

What is 'appropriate' doesn't nessesarily have to line up with YOUR comfort level. However, don't get me wrong. I am not saying everything was on the up and up. I wasn't there. I am ALL FOR spending more time with the family and get a feel for if something really is off, because if something IS off, then there needs to be phone calls.

But I am against passing judgement after one encounter.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I would value and trust the opinion of a trained sex abuse investigtor regarding the behavior. If someone with years of professional experince says it's OK, then I'll accept it. Until then, I want that second opinion.

Then report it. Don't tell the neighbors someone is a child molester if you have no proof. It's fine to ask THEM if they noticed anything off, but if they haven't, I am not for poisoning the wells.

Sheesh. Would hate to move into a neighborhood, be myself, and have half the neighborhood ready to get militia to call me out.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
You are reading one persons perception. Were you there? And as for what is appropriate for a 10 year old girl? Our opinion is different. I could care less if the 10 year old is a boy or a girl, if they are not UNCOMFORTABLE with the parent child relationship, then it is not your place to judge it.

If the child seems to be in distress, if the child is uncomfortable, or if the child looks to be abused then that is when you report it to CPS. Not the neighborhood..

The OP stated that the child did not look comfortable. To me, that means the child looked uncomfortable. A major red flag.

I think the OP needs to call an expert / CPS / the police to get their advice. I agree the OP should not be gossiping, and I don't think she has been.

And, I applaud nextcommercial for looking out for her neighbor's child. This is exactly what I think of when I think of the phrase it takes a village. We do need to look out for each other when we sense trouble especially considering children who may be unable to protect themselves.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua* 
Then report it. Don't tell the neighbors someone is a child molester if you have no proof. It's fine to ask THEM if they noticed anything off, but if they haven't, I am not for poisoning the wells.

Sheesh. Would hate to move into a neighborhood, be myself, and have half the neighborhood ready to get militia to call me out.

I have no indication the OP labled anyone as a child molester.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Well, the OP is the only person in this discussion who actually saw the way he was touching/handling his stepdaughter with her own two eyes. A picture is worth a thousand words, and all that.

Furthermore, there were other adults there who saw the same thing and who (according to the OP, assuming she's telling the truth) felt similarly to the way the OP feels about it. I don't know what those conversations were really like. Was the OP going around saying "hey, don't you think he's weird? huh? huh?" and the neighbors responded "hm, I guess you might be right..." or did they have the same idea on their own and share it mutually? If the OP is a busybody going around projecting/planting her own ideas with other people, that would be troubling, but I see nothing concrete in her posts to indicate that.

So if multiple adults who actually saw it were uncomfortable - including the teacher neighbor, a trained mandated reporter - that says something. I agree that going around the neighborhood talking about it is not a good strategy. But having somebody else's runaway kid in the house at 7 a.m., and giving the kid a toy, instead of, say, immediately contacting her parents, HUGE red flag. I do think parents have a right to discuss what's going on in their children's environment with the other parents.

However I do agree that you need more information and the only way to get it is to interact with this family more. OTOH I think a lot of PPs are looking through the world with rose-colored glasses ...there are people out there who are so creepy you can sense it immediately, and the OP and her neighbors very well may have met one of them.

For some reason when things like this come up a lot of people immediately identify with the suspected person and start crying witch hunt and invent all sorts of convoluted reasons why this person whom they've never met is beyond reproach. Like, maybe she was grounded???????







: Who "grounds" a ten year old from playing with other kids in the parents' presence? What kind of "grounding" involves being required to cuddle your stepdad for extended periods of time????

It's interesting how despite the fact that we all know the statistics on molestation, even on MDC women are routinely shamed into turning a blind eye if they become suspicious of a man's interactions with a young girl. It shows how deep male privilege really runs in our social consciousness.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I think that investigating should be left to people whose jobs it is to conduct criminal investigations. And that suspicious behavior should be reported to the authorities who are trained to investigate.

And I don't see how the OP is doing any hanging of the new neighbor.

If she calls the police she is not hanging either, she is expressing her concerns and the police will determine if those concerns are valid or whether they should be dismissed.

And I assume that if there is an investigation and the family is OK, the OP will accept that, be delighted and get on with life. She's not out for blood, but she wants something that doesn't seem quite right to be checked out.

I think it would be great if the family was investigated, found to be fine, and OP wouldn't continue to doubt them. I don't see that happening a lot of the time. Even if the OP has no issues with the nothing being found, the rest of the neighborhood may still have doubts. Now you have a little girl who isn't allowd to have the kids from the neighborhood over and a neighborhood distancing themselves for no reason at all. It never comes out good.

What is the problem with inviting the family over and getting to know them? Do you really feel it is justifiable to see a family one time and base your entire opinion on that one instance? I can't imagine using one example in a person's life and drawing conclusions about them. I am fairly certain that is a big thing on MDC....not judging based on one interaction with a family.


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## sdm1024 (Sep 4, 2006)

with telling you that I haven't read every single post.

I'm in the watch and see club. It sounds creepy....but we're talking about one encounter here. I'm sure if you met me and my family on some days you'd think we're pretty werid!









That said, I can understand your feelings....my DH's ex-wife's new husband gives me the creeps. Don't know why. Just does. I watch closely, but so far nothing has happened that gives me more concern than just a general feeling of ickiness about the guy. Luckily, he is a weekly commuter to work so the skids aren't really around him much.

Back to you thogh....I do beleive in gut feelings, that sometime we intuitively know something is going on, even if there's no hard evidence to support the feeling. It's a prickly situation to be in tho, because you don't want to alienate your neighbours if there really isn't anything going on. Nothing to start a neighbourly relationship on the wrong foot like mistakenly accusing the stepdad of sexual abuse.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I would value and trust the opinion of a trained sex abuse investigtor regarding the behavior. If someone with years of professional experince says it's OK, then I'll accept it. Until then, I want that second opinion.

So a trained investigator couldn't be wrong.....you would really base your opinion completely on how one person judges the family to be. Hmmmm......


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
Well, the OP is the only person in this discussion who actually saw the way he was touching/handling his stepdaughter with her own two eyes. A picture is worth a thousand words, and all that.

Furthermore, there were other adults there who saw the same thing and who (according to the OP, assuming she's telling the truth) felt similarly to the way the OP feels about it. I don't know what those conversations were really like. Was the OP going around saying "hey, don't you think he's weird? huh? huh?" and the neighbors responded "hm, I guess you might be right..." or did they have the same idea on their own and share it mutually? If the OP is a busybody going around projecting/planting her own ideas with other people, that would be troubling, but I see nothing concrete in her posts to indicate that.

So if multiple adults who actually saw it were uncomfortable - including the teacher neighbor, a trained mandated reporter - that says something. I agree that going around the neighborhood talking about it is not a good strategy. But having somebody else's runaway kid in the house at 7 a.m., and giving the kid a toy, instead of, say, immediately contacting her parents, HUGE red flag. I do think parents have a right to discuss what's going on in their children's environment with the other parents.

However I do agree that you need more information and the only way to get it is to interact with this family more. OTOH I think a lot of PPs are looking through the world with rose-colored glasses ...there are people out there who are so creepy you can sense it immediately, and the OP and her neighbors very well may have met one of them.

For some reason when things like this come up a lot of people immediately identify with the suspected person and start crying witch hunt and invent all sorts of convoluted reasons why this person whom they've never met is beyond reproach. Like, maybe she was grounded???????







: Who "grounds" a ten year old from playing with other kids in the parents' presence? What kind of "grounding" involves being required to cuddle your stepdad for extended periods of time????

It's interesting how despite the fact that we all know the statistics on molestation, even on MDC women are routinely shamed into turning a blind eye if they become suspicious of a man's interactions with a young girl. It shows how deep male privilege really runs in our social consciousness.

I don't think anyone is crying 'witch hunt' as much as we are saying spend time with the people and feel it out. I never trust my first impressions as a rule because people are often times nervous the first time they meet you. Or on the other hand they are trying to hard to be in your good graces. Either way I would get to know the people a little bit more.

As for 'grounding' My parents would put me on their lap when I wasnt allowed to play with the other kids because I was in trouble. That stopped around 6 or 7 though, but you asked.

I don't want the OP to turn a blind eye. I want her to take her blinders off and take a look at the whole picture instead of an isolated first impression.

Throwing male privilage out there in this situation is sick and twisted to me. But that is just an opinion. This has nothing to do with 'male privilage' and everything to do with either 1- respecting someones household or 2-taking a good look and seeing if something truly is off in someones household before getting the authorities involved.


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## meaghann (Oct 23, 2007)

All I could imagine was maybe the stepdaughter was ill during the block party and the parents didn't want her to make would-be friends sick.

Anyway, I really wonder if the eyewitness dads at the block party are having all this kind of reverb.

Like someone else said, the damage from stigma from talking about this stepfather has already been done from the first 10 adults or whatever seeing what was going on. It is not an easy thing to fix or control and I don't think the duty or expectation of duty of this falls upon any single person.

Btw, the skateboard/missing-girl gift thing has creeped me out all morning even in the back of my head.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

If you were going to watch and wait or get to know this family what "signs" are you looking for. It seems that some of you think you would see something to tell you if a child is being abuse if you waited it out. In the meantime the child may be abused repeatedly.

BTW, don't you think stuff like this get reported enough that the agency would have a better insight if it is worth looking into or not?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
She is warning other neighbors about him....that seems fairly conclusive.

Your opinion is that his behavior was inappropriate, but that doesn't mean it was.

I warned ONE neighbor who's ten year old daughter was inside his home at 7:00 a.m in the morning three days after they moved in. Obviously, the child shouldn't have been out of her home, but she was, AND she was inside HIS home.

I didn't tell her what we saw, I told her he gave us a bad vibe, and she could ask me anything if she had any questions. I never ONCE said, "he is a pervert" or "child molester" I didn't even say that here to you guys. I just said I have a really bad feeling about this guy.

I never said we were going to call CPS. I said a teacher was going to call her school counselor to ask if they could watch and discuss (among themselves) any problems that they might be noticing. Sometimes when one person sees one thing, you don't think much of it, but if a few people see something, when you put it all together, you realize there could be a problem.

I honestly don't think we were anything but friendly to them on Friday. His wife genuinely had a good time. Other than them finding out what we said AFTER they left, they would have no reason not to come out and sit with us again. We are fun people!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I have no indication the OP labled anyone as a child molester.


Thank you.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 

And I assume that if there is an investigation and the family is OK, the OP will accept that, be delighted and get on with life. She's not out for blood, but she wants something that doesn't seem quite right to be checked out.

Oh I'm quite sure the OP will get on with her life whatever the outcome. The family? Not so much. Regardless if he's guilty or innocent, their lives will be changed forever. Theres even a chance they'll be ruined forever. The damage is probably already done though with all the neighborhood talk.


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

When I was growing up, my mother never let us go to a certain grocery store that was a big favorite among kids in the neighborhood because the proprietor always gave out candy. She never explained why, and because my parents had a LOT of rules, it didn't seem strange to me.

Fifteen years later, it came out that the proprietor had been fondling the girls who came into his store for at least 25-30 years. Only after I'd heard about it about him from other people and I confronted her did my mother explain that she'd kept us away (including my brother) because she had noticed he seemed to "like" the girls better than the boys and she had seen him taking girls into closed off areas of the store.

My mother never told anyone about her suspicions, except to talk it over with my father, who agreed that the man seemed "off." Who knows how many kids would have escaped being molested over the next fifteen years if she had? Apparently, no one had ever reported this guy for anything.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Here is info on a sexual abuse hotline......

http://www.childhelp.org/get_help


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

DH's uncle made me fool uncomfortable around his son, I told the mom how I felt. I had to.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Do you really feel it is justifiable to see a family one time and base your entire opinion on that one instance?

If I have reason to believe a child may be in danger, I believe it is appropriate to make an effort to protect the child.

And if I sense a child may be in danger based on only one interaction / observation, I would act based on that.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
If I have reason to believe a child may be in danger, I believe it is appropriate to make an effort to protect the child.

And if I sense a child may be in danger based on only one interaction / observation, I would act based on that.

So are you one of those people that call CPS on a mama in the parking lot for snapping loudly at her 3 yo because she's had a very rough day? Do you routinely take a snapshot picture of a family and base your judgments entirely on that?


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
So are you one of those people that call CPS on a mama in the parking lot for snapping loudly at her 3 yo because she's had a very rough day? Do you routinely take a snapshot picture of a family and base your judgments entirely on that?

No. I am not one of "those people". I have never called CPS, but I would not hesitate to if I felt it was necessary in order to help a child be safe.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
So are you one of those people that call CPS on a mama in the parking lot for snapping loudly at her 3 yo because she's had a very rough day? Do you routinely take a snapshot picture of a family and base your judgments entirely on that?

I don't think that this qualifies as a snapshot, and certainly not like seeing someone frustrated with a child for a moment.

What does the OP need to see in order to justify her feelings? Maybe if he'd put his hand up her shirt, or maybe slipped his hand down her pants? How obvious does it need to be before it's ok to feel creeped out and take action? How many times would you suspect someone that you think that you know of being a child molester? It's not likely that you'd think that about anyone that you know, or think that you know, or are related to, or that your children visit regularly. Especially not if you're looking for "proof" of which there is usually very little of in public situations. Statistics are scary.....1 in 4 girls and fewer, but a significant number of boys will be sexually abused before adulthood. So, we know these abusers, we work with them, they teach our children, we live next to them, we may even have them in our families, homes or beds.

And the OP said that the girl DID seem uncomfortable. The mother didn't seem uncomfortable. If I wouldn't let my child go from my lap during a get together and it was for a reason, I'd state the reason "you're not feeling well, why don't you rest a bit" or "You're grounded" Not "why don't you hang out on my lap for awhile"

My husband is affectionate to our children, but he wouldn't ever force a child to sit on his lap and neither would I. When our children don't want tickles touches or kisses, they only have to say once. Even our 2 year old.
Lisa


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
I don't think that this qualifies as a snapshot, and certainly not like seeing someone frustrated with a child for a moment.

What does the OP need to see in order to justify her feelings? Maybe if he'd put his hand up her shirt, or maybe slipped his hand down her pants? How obvious does it need to be before it's ok to feel creeped out and take action? How many times would you suspect someone that you think that you know of being a child molester? It's not likely that you'd think that about anyone that you know, or think that you know, or are related to, or that your children visit regularly. Especially not if you're looking for "proof" of which there is usually very little of in public situations. Statistics are scary.....1 in 4 girls and fewer, but a significant number of boys will be sexually abused before adulthood. So, we know these abusers, we work with them, they teach our children, we live next to them, we may even have them in our families, homes or beds.

And the OP said that the girl DID seem uncomfortable. The mother didn't seem uncomfortable. If I wouldn't let my child go from my lap during a get together and it was for a reason, I'd state the reason "you're not feeling well, why don't you rest a bit" or "You're grounded" Not "why don't you hang out on my lap for awhile"

My husband is affectionate to our children, but he wouldn't ever force a child to sit on his lap and neither would I. When our children don't want tickles touches or kisses, they only have to say once. Even our 2 year old.
Lisa

This seems odd to me. Why must I explain myself to other people I dont even know and tell them why my child is "hanging out with me." In fact, I *HAVE* said that very same thing when my daughter was being restricted from playing, sick, or for other reasons I did not want them playing with other kids. In fact, once it was because I didn't approve of how the *other children* were playing and didn't want my daughter around it. Rather than be rude and "explain" my reasons to the parents I barely knew, I just asked her to "hang out with me" instead. A few kisses on the head and my arms around her and suddenly I'm a pedophile?







: And just because the OP said the girl looked uncomfortable doesn't mean she actually WAS. Maybe she had gas, or a toothache. Does the OP really even know?? No. She doesn't.

I'm sorry, a feeling just isn't enough to go on by a snapshot. And yes, thats what this was. Simply a snapshot out of the life of a family she doesn't even know at all, and obviously refuses to try to get to know further.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
I'm sorry, a feeling just isn't enough to go on by a snapshot. And yes, thats what this was. Simply a snapshot out of the life of a family she doesn't even know at all, and obviously refuses to try to get to know further.

I don't refuse to get to know them. Not at all. I DO refuse to let my child go inside their house though. My daughter cannot babysit for them, and the other's children will not be allowed to go into their house to play with their child. We ARE making that decision based on what we saw and felt when we met them. Even after less than two hours, we had already made that decision.

I also would not be at all surprised if they chose not to let their child play inside our homes. I wouldn't blame them a bit!


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

No matter how much people scream about how this is judgemental, the fact remains that bad people manage to take advantage of people because THEY REFUSE TO ACT ON WHAT THEY SEE AND KNOW. People push away knowledge because it is too terrible to be wrong, or to be right.

Almost every molester has been caught and suspected LONG before anything was ever done about them. People are so willing to not judge that they forget that where you see the floating ice the iceberg is just below the surface.

If you see one cockroach, and everyone else sees one cockroach, but you all agree that it just too premature to make the assumption that the cockroaches indicate a problem because how can you all judge when all of you has just seen one roach....... And that is EXACTLY how this sort of person gets away with the things they do.

Do not be afraid to use your brain. No matter how many people may lecture you on it. Be willing to consider that you are wrong. But call the exterminators anyway.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I just wanted to say I think it's a hard situation. I totally support you OP in protecting your own kids, and I think your instincts are important and there for a purpose that way. I do not consider making those kinds of judgment calls - who my kid will be around - to be anything but a personal choice.

I do think the talking about it with everyone is a little iffy. For me, if I felt strongly enough to talk to a neighbour about her kid's safely, I would probably call CAS. They are not perfect but up here anyway, they often are able to investigate complaints quietly and without drama.. and even if they miss something, often it's a strong message to the child later on, that at least someone else found that things were not "normal." I have called CAS once (in that case there were clear signs of physical abuse) and had a family member be investigated (and cleared), so that's my experience with them.

On the other hand, I do have to say that I personally would not like the "must hang out with neighbours drinking" thing. I have nothing against neighbours or drinking or neighbours drinking, but I am the kind of person who needs a while to warm up before getting pushed to hang out. I would not have found that respectful of me.

If you hadn't provided those details I would be more sure that you should call, but it kind of seems to me that you have a strong sense of what is acceptable behaviour that isn't quite in line with my own. Not that I am the decider.


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## silver_bird123456 (Apr 30, 2007)

Please, please, please do something to help this child.

So many people are saying it: many, many abusers get away with it because, everyone thinks, I don't know enough or someone else will do it.

Your inution can be enough, I would definitly take what you've said as a referal. There seem so many werid little things.

To be honset it sounds as if many of your neighbours are part wondering anyway, so really I wouldn't worry so much about stigmatising.

If you decided to wait and see, what are you wating for? If you do this please set yourself some sort of deadline, like if I still feel his behaviour is creepy after X weeks I will make a referal. Don't keep waiting for incotraverable proof, you may never see it.

Don't be a neighbourhood full of people saying years later, I always knew he was a werid one. Be the one who did something.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

My opinion is that if you get a creepy vibe from someone, its likely for a good reason. Does that mean the neighbor is molesting his child? No. But i would bet there is *something* off there, if soooo many people got a weird vibe.

I'm really surprised at so many people suggesting this mother not judge the situation based upon her instincts. i have a neighbor who is creepy....he just weirds me out, he has my whole childhood. Do i think he molested his children? No, probably not...but he's still weird, and it actually wouldnt surprise me at all to find there was some iffy family dynamics going on.

It makes me







: to see what was described by the OP, dismissed as "oh, so if i'm affectionate with my kid in public, then i'm a pedophile??"....I have a son who just turned 11. We are a VERY affectionate family....if i saw something similar, with a man who has only been this child's father figure for three years, and every single person present thought it was strange, and got a creep vibe, yes...i would think it was off in some way. It simply isnt normal for a parent to have his hands on his 10 yr old child, for a solid hour and a half, even when she asks to go play with other kids, or sit down seperate from him.

That being said, i dont really think there is much you can do, other than trying to befriend the little girl and helping her feel that you are a "safe" person she can confide in if necessary. I dont think calling CPS will help...you dont have any evidence. It would likely just make the family close up more and give you less of a chance to find anything out. Just keep your eyes open.

Oh, and the other neighbor girl coming from their house....huge red flag. It might be nothing at all, totally innocent, or it could be grooming behavior. Enough of these "totally innocent" situations could ultimately add up to something more.

Katherine


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Would a creepy feeling be enough for a mandatory reporter? No. Not likely. Feelings, thoughts and hunches are simply not enough. And with good reason! People everywhere would be reporting everyone.

There are many other signs you can look for if you suspect sexual abuse. The FIRST thing I'd do is try to get to know the family. You can't very well see whats going on if you stay 5 houses away and only whisper about them to each other.

I agree, get involved! That doesn't mean get the authorities involved.
It means YOU.

As a teacher, I am a mandated reporter. I've been to the trainings. It was drilled into my head that if I had ANY suspicion for ANY reason, I was mandated to report it. If I did not report it, I could be held legally libel. There were certainly many more red flags indicated here besides a "creepy feeling," anyways. Attitudes like this are why so many children have had to live with abuse. No one wants to risk "being wrong" or "getting involved." By reporting the facts to CPS, you are not accusing someone. You are saying, this was some concerning behavior. You give the facts. They decide what to do with it, and whether or not it warrants a visit. If you then gain other concilliatory evidence, you can again call and give those facts. Sometimes one report is not enough, but when there are several different reports an investigation can occur. There may already be a case against this family, and one more "red flag" can give someone the authority to act or open an investigation.


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## Sarahbunny (Jun 13, 2006)

Wow.

If you were getting a bad vibe, I say go with your instincts. Which we, as women, routinely ignore so as to look polite/nice/neighborly.

You are the one who was there. If you feel something inappropriate was going on, you should take some sort of action.

Maybe invite them over for dinner and see if you still get a strange feeling?

Frankly, and I am sure I will get flamed, if I felt as strongly as you seem to in your op, I would call cps and make an inquiry or report.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I don't refuse to get to know them. Not at all. I DO refuse to let my child go inside their house though. My daughter cannot babysit for them, and the other's children will not be allowed to go into their house to play with their child. We ARE making that decision based on what we saw and felt when we met them. Even after less than two hours, we had already made that decision.

I also would not be at all surprised if they chose not to let their child play inside our homes. I wouldn't blame them a bit!

But see, I don't think keeping your child from their house or not letting your child babysit for them is the wrong choice! I think thats a very personal choice, and one that you CAN make based on a snapshot one time thing. YOU were uncomfortable with what you saw and because of that you will not allow your child in their house. No one is saying thats a bad thing at all.

The judgment after only a few hours with these people that extends to talking with the neighbors about it, all but implicating him in the missing girl from the neighborhood, etc.. are what I have a problem with. Not you deciding to keep your own children away. One decision impacts you and your family only. The other impacts him and his family as well.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
The judgment after only a few hours with these people that extends to talking with the neighbors about it, all but implicating him in the missing girl from the neighborhood, etc.. are what I have a problem with..

But why? It makes perfect sense to me....a new family moves into (what seems to be)a close-knit neighborhood, and the first interaction with the people leaves not only the OP but most of the other neighbors with a weird vibe that something is not quite right with the stepfather.

Then a little girl who is exactly the same age as the other girl goes missing for quite some time and can't be found. And you think its jumping to conclusions for the OP to say "Well, that new neighbor guy is kinda creepy so keep your eyes open" (not sure exactly what she said i just know what *I* would say)...and then, that very child comes from the the stepfather's house at 7am with a toy?! So...the OP wasnt jumping to conclusions after all was she? *Because the little girl was there!!*

Is there a simple, more innocent reason? Maybe. Maybe not. I didnt seem to me that the OP was going door to door telling neighbors that New Guy is a pedophile. But if it were MY daughter that was missing, i'd sure like to know if a neighbor was raising red flags, because that would then be the first place i'd look.

Thats great that you think its fine for the OP to not let her girls go over to that house. What about another mom on the street, who may not have met the stepfather? What about her daughter? Does the OP have any responsibility to that mother to say "Hey, just to let you know, i don't let my daughters go over there."? Or should she just not worry about other peoples' kids?

Katherine


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Would you rather risk having CPS come to a house and investigate and then find nothing or would you rather risk having a little girl molested (which in many cases escaates to rape) and nobody saying anything? Which is the worst evil? Which do you think the little girl would say the lesser evil is?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
The judgment after only a few hours with these people that extends to talking with the neighbors about it, all but implicating him in the missing girl from the neighborhood, etc.. are what I have a problem with. Not you deciding to keep your own children away. One decision impacts you and your family only. The other impacts him and his family as well.


I didn't say anything about him UNTIL she came out of their house WITH a skateboard that she claims HE let her borrow. The neighbor girl didn't say the new girl let her borrow it, she said the new girl's DAD let her borrow it. Then she went in her house. THAT is when I told her he gives me the willies. Other than that one time, I never said anything to anyone who wasn't standing around the fire pit and watched exactly what I watched. I haven't gone to the other neighbors. In fact, it never occured to me to suspect the new guy would have anything to do with the missing neigbor girl (because she does this type of thing all the time) until she came out of their house.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

I think your initial gut feeling and now this "coincidence" with the missing neighbor girl coming from their garage at 7:00 am with a skateboard that the dad let her borrow. I think something is screaming at you to listen. If I was as uncomfortable as you described in your OP and now this, I think I would call. I know thats not going to be a popular opinion, but I would rather risk being wrong than risk the girl being victimized further.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
About that time, she came riding down the road on a skateboard, but it wasn't her skateboard. When her mom asked her where she got the skateboard, she said "Katies Dad said I could use it". (Katie is the new girl) _*not her real name btw*_


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I warned ONE neighbor who's ten year old daughter was inside his home at 7:00 a.m in the morning three days after they moved in. Obviously, the child shouldn't have been out of her home, but she was, AND she was inside HIS home.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I didn't say anything about him UNTIL she came out of their house WITH a skateboard that she claims HE let her borrow. The neighbor girl didn't say the new girl let her borrow it, she said the new girl's DAD let her borrow it. Then she went in her house. THAT is when I told her he gives me the willies. Other than that one time, I never said anything to anyone who wasn't standing around the fire pit and watched exactly what I watched. I haven't gone to the other neighbors. In fact, it never occured to me to suspect the new guy would have anything to do with the missing neigbor girl (because she does this type of thing all the time) until she came out of their house.

I'm just trying to figure this one part out. In your first mention of the "missing" girl, you simply say that she came down the street on the new skateboard.

At what point exactly was she in the new family's house? Did you see her leave their house as your next two posts imply? At 7 a.m.? Or is it possible that she there the previous day with the whole family present? Or is it possible that she was never in the home, and just made up the story that she had cleared her "borrowing" of the skateboard? You have mentioned that she is known to be rather troubled afterall.

This is a pretty damning piece of your story against the new step-dad, and I just want to be clear on what you actually KNOW to be fact.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
But why? It makes perfect sense to me....a new family moves into (what seems to be)a close-knit neighborhood, and the first interaction with the people leaves not only the OP but most of the other neighbors with a weird vibe that something is not quite right with the stepfather.

Then a little girl who is exactly the same age as the other girl goes missing for quite some time and can't be found. And you think its jumping to conclusions for the OP to say "Well, that new neighbor guy is kinda creepy so keep your eyes open" (not sure exactly what she said i just know what *I* would say)...and then, that very child comes from the the stepfather's house at 7am with a toy?! So...the OP wasnt jumping to conclusions after all was she? *Because the little girl was there!!*

Is there a simple, more innocent reason? Maybe. Maybe not. I didnt seem to me that the OP was going door to door telling neighbors that New Guy is a pedophile. But if it were MY daughter that was missing, i'd sure like to know if a neighbor was raising red flags, because that would then be the first place i'd look.

Thats great that you think its fine for the OP to not let her girls go over to that house. What about another mom on the street, who may not have met the stepfather? What about her daughter? Does the OP have any responsibility to that mother to say "Hey, just to let you know, i don't let my daughters go over there."? Or should she just not worry about other peoples' kids?

Katherine

I don't think parents should let their children play at peoples houses they don't know in the first place.







Neighbor or not, NONE of the people int he neighborhood know these people so they *should* be wary. normal wary

Do people normally let their children play at other peoples houses when they haven't met the parents first and gotten to know them? Because I know I don't.

Personally, I'd be more concerned why the girl was out at night, or missing until 7 am. I'd be more concerned about why the parents are not protecting their child. How is the new neighbor supposed to know the child isn't supposed to be there? She shows up at his house.. maybe he's wondering why in the world some parents don't watch their children? She asks to use the skateboard, the father.. not wanting to seem rude, says yes. Or she asks the girl and the girl says its up to her dad, and then he says yes.

I can see a million scenarios that don't involve pedophilia or illegal activity.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I'm just trying to figure this one part out. In your first mention of the "missing" girl, you simply say that she came down the street on the new skateboard.

At what point exactly was she in the new family's house? Did you see her leave their house as your next two posts imply? At 7 a.m.? Or is it possible that she there the previous day with the whole family present? Or is it possible that she was never in the home, and just made up the story that she had cleared her "borrowing" of the skateboard? You have mentioned that she is known to be rather troubled afterall.

This is a pretty damning piece of your story against the new step-dad, and I just want to be clear on what you actually KNOW to be fact.

No. I did not see her coming out of the house. And YES, it is entirely possible that she made up the story about being in the house. She DID come from the area of the house, but we didn't see her actually come out of the door. She HAD snuck out either in the night or early in the morning. She DID have their skateboard, AND she knew the neighbor girl's name, even though her mother had never heard of the new girl before.

As I said, this neighbor girl escapes occasionally. She gets in trouble constantly, she is completely unsupervised at home, and that is why she can leave so easily. There isn't even a screen on her window, and her window is in the front of the house.

So, the part about her being "missing" was not a suprise. But, I was surprised when she said "Katies dad let me borrow this". So, since she knew the new girl's name, had apparently been out most of the night, and had their skateboard, I will assume she was telling the truth. She doesn't lie very often.. she pretty much just tells you what is on her mind, even if it is shocking and innapropriate . But, it is not out of the realm of possibility either. I don't think she would steal the skateboard though.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Personally, I'd be more concerned why the girl was out at night, or missing until 7 am. I'd be more concerned about why the parents are not protecting their child.

I will never understand this either. That, and she is NOTHING like a ten year old. She is both incredibly immature, and incredibly mature all at the same time. They allow her to do things my 15 year old isn't allowed to do yet.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
Almost every molester has been caught and suspected LONG before anything was ever done about them.

Interested to see the stats on this statement.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
As a teacher, I am a mandated reporter. I've been to the trainings. It was drilled into my head that if I had ANY suspicion for ANY reason, I was mandated to report it. If I did not report it, I could be held legally libel. There were certainly many more red flags indicated here besides a "creepy feeling," anyways. Attitudes like this are why so many children have had to live with abuse. No one wants to risk "being wrong" or "getting involved." By reporting the facts to CPS, you are not accusing someone. You are saying, this was some concerning behavior. You give the facts. They decide what to do with it, and whether or not it warrants a visit. If you then gain other concilliatory evidence, you can again call and give those facts. Sometimes one report is not enough, but when there are several different reports an investigation can occur. There may already be a case against this family, and one more "red flag" can give someone the authority to act or open an investigation.


THANK YOU. I am a mandated reporter, and said the same thing, but you said it better!







:


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

I'll stand by what I said early on..

I think you should invite them over, get to know them and their family dynamics a bit better. Even if you do end up reporting him, its not like he'll know anything more about you than he already does. You really have nothing to lose, but knowledge is power.

And I have reported a family to CPS before. If I'm given reason to believe that the child is in danger, screw the parents and their social problems following my report. If they weren't crappy parents, they'd not have the problem anyway. I only report the problem, I don't create the problem.







:


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
If I'm given reason to believe that the child is in danger, screw the parents and their social problems following my report. If they weren't crappy parents, they'd not have the problem anyway.







:









I've written a few things and then deleted them because I honestly don't know what to say to this....


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Do people normally let their children play at other peoples houses when they haven't met the parents first and gotten to know them? Because I know I don't.

Gotten to know them? How well?

My son just turned 11. He rides his bike or scooter all over the place, within about a three mile radius around town.

A couple of years ago, he discovered two brothers near his age who lived just down the street. Sure, i walked down there and met their mother briefly (we talked for maybe five or ten minutes, i let her know where we lived, told her to send my son home if they had other things to do, etc)...i didnt meet the stepfather that day. I did not tell my son "No, you can't play until i meet every adult in the home." Do you do that? How old are your kids? I did eventually meet the stepdad, and he seemed nice enough...but really, what can i tell in a five minute conversation? I relied on the relationship i have with my son, for him to tell me if anything "weird" was going on in that home.

My son's best friend lives across the street. We've "known" the stepdad for years, as he was the nice-guy bachelor that never got married...my sister knew him since elementary school, so no worries there. I talked to the mom for like five minutes (my sister had a more lengthy conversation)..i've never been in their home. They seem nice enough, but i wouldnt say i know them well.

How well do you get to know the parents of neighbor kids that your kids play with?

Quote:

I can see a million scenarios that don't involve pedophilia or illegal activity.
Indeed, pedophilia/illegal activity seems to be the one scenario you dont really want to consider at all.







Does this mom's instincts count for nothing at all? Really? Do you think when an entire group of people get creeped out by someone, its usually for no reason?

I think we should rely on the feelings of those who were actually in the situation...when i was in middle school, there was a teacher who would touch the girls. Nothing outwardly inappropriate...just a squeeze of the shoulder, "special attention", etc...if a teacher without the creep factor did it, it would be considered loving and supportive. But this teacher made the girls' skin crawl, esp the ones who were the target of his attention. For years and years this teacher was the subject of the kids' gossip/rumors, and yet nothing was done til probably twenty years later (when administrators started taking such allegations seriously)....i think there is something about our animal nature that allows us to pick up on "danger" vibes, and its REALLY important we listen to those msgs.

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I will never understand this either. That, and she is NOTHING like a ten year old. She is both incredibly immature, and incredibly mature all at the same time. They allow her to do things my 15 year old isn't allowed to do yet.

This is so sad....because (whether or not the neighbor guy is a danger)this girl will likely be a target now or in the future for someone who will take advantage of her situation (no supervision, gets in trouble easily, immature yet mature)....i hope her parents realize this and take steps to help prevent her becoming a victim.

Katherine


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Why are you having an issue with my statement? Since when are social issues more important than the safety and future wellness of a child?? What a disgusting thought..







:

A 6 year old girl came over to my MIL's on Christmas Day crying because her parents screamed at her to get out of the house and stay out. They had locked her out once, and she crawled through a window to get back in. They had been drinking all day and had been known to use drugs. So I called CPS. Do I give a rats a$$ if they had issues with the fact that I called CPS? Absolutely not! If they had treated their daughter with love and care instead of coldness and uncaring and not been so disgustingly selfish, I'd not have had to call.

If ANYONE ever had a reason to believe that our kids were being abused, I'd want them to investigate further too. Thats why I suggested inviting the family over to get to understand them better. As I said before, I do have experience in the fallout of an illegitmate claim of abuse. I know the ramifications of it, its not to be taken lightly.
Learn more.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Do you do that? How old are your kids?
How well do you get to know the parents of neighbor kids that your kids play with?


My oldest is 9, and I do get to know the kids and the adults she plays with.

If I don't know the adults, then she isn't allowed inside the home. She can play with other kids she meets, but only outside. Sometimes she has friendships that kinda just go that way and never progress. Other times she really wants to be able to play at their house, or have them come over here.. and I do make sure I meet the family first, visit their home, and get to know them. I find out what the parents do for a living, siblings, what the atmosphere is like, who lives there.. If I'm allowing my child to be in their house, under their supervision... I'm damn well going to know whos house she's at. I don't bring a clipboard and interrogate them, but I do bring a snack and visit and make sure I am available to continue a friendship with them. If the parent and I can't at least progress to acquaintance, then my kids don't play there.

She only rides her bike to the playground or to her aunts house down the street. Right now, thats all we feel comfortable with.

It does go the other way as well. I won't let other kids come inside my house to play until I've met their parents. Though I realize other parents don't always care, which I find sad and disturbing. Still.. they don't come in until I've met the parents and received their permission.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Indeed, pedophilia/illegal activity seems to be the one scenario you dont really want to consider at all.







Does this mom's instincts count for nothing at all? Really? Do you think when an entire group of people get creeped out by someone, its usually for no reason?

As a survivor, pedophilia is pretty darn high on my list of concerns for my children. And I do trust my instincts, as should the OP. However, I don't think trusting your instincts means you have to turn a blind eye to everything else. Its okay to keep an open mind.

It seems many people don't want to think this father is anything but guilty of abuse. In the quest to save the children, I think sometimes we do jump too quick. I think we judge too harshly and do a lot of talk but not a lot of action. The statement, "it takes a village.." somehow I don't think they were referring to just picking up the phone and calling CPS as your contribution to the village. I tend to think it meant more hands on personal help. More willingness to get yourself involved.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
Why are you having an issue with my statement? Since when are social issues more important than the safety and future wellness of a child?? What a disgusting thought..







:

I have issue with this...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
If they weren't crappy parents, they'd not have the problem anyway.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
Learn more.

Excuse me?


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 

As a survivor, pedophilia is pretty darn high on my list of concerns for my children. *And I do trust my instincts, as should the OP. However, I don't think trusting your instincts means you have to turn a blind eye to everything else. Its okay to keep an open mind.*

*It seems many people don't want to think this father is anything but guilty of abuse. In the quest to save the children, I think sometimes we do jump too quick.* I think we judge too harshly and do a lot of talk but not a lot of action. The statement, "it takes a village.." somehow I don't think they were referring to just picking up the phone and calling CPS as your contribution to the village. I tend to think it meant more hands on personal help. More willingness to get yourself involved.

My bolding.

The OP and the other adults' instincts told them there was something off, it made their radar go off. She shouldn't ignore that. Feeling that in your gut that this child may be being abused and then sitting back and trying to get to know the family IS NOT listening to your instincts. Sorry, its not, regardless of how you put it, its not. If you have ever had that instinctual feeling like the OP had, like I had when I felt my niece was being abused - that was on nothing else then the abusers actions, that were much less obvious than this guy, and my gut feeling. It turned out to be true. Had I ignored my instinct and sat back and waited it could still be going on. Would it have kept the peace with my sil who protected her father, yep, would my brother and sil still be married, yep probably, but my nieces would still be being abused and that was not acceptable to me.

The OP isn't jumping too quick, if it was that obvious and she and other felt it that strongly she should react. If she were teacher, social worker, doctor she would be legally obligated to report it.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

So you're honestly telling me you've never had that feeling and been wrong? Because I have. And I know others have been as well.

Trusting your feelings is one thing. Closing your mind off to all other possibilities and casting someone guilty based only on your feeling isn't right IMO.

I doubt arguing about this is going to change my mind on the matter.







The OP asked for advice and I think she's been given a nice mix of advice from many points of view.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
Interested to see the stats on this statement.

I wish there was stats on it. I doubt that anyone has done a study on it.

However, you may go out and talk to ANY people who lived in a place with a molester. A town with "that guy". Any sub-culture or group or neighbourhood. Where EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go.

Oh, it was just once. Oh, it was a mistake. Oh, he's "off" but not really that bad. Oh, they ask for it and he can't help it. Oh, he's misunderstood. Oh, I can handle him. I taught my children better. He didn't really mean to put his hand there, tickle her there, that boob-grab was an accident....etc. etc. etc.

Molesters and pedophiles are rarely unknown. They are simply ignored. They rely on your and my complicity.

When you out them, and try to point out their behaviour and compare notes and point out that everyone knows something about the person, everyone has seen something bad, everyone has watched him do it, people will actually fight you about it. Seen it happen numerous times now. I hear about it. I watch old ladies talk about it, and they'll ARGUE that no one really KNEW ....but every one of them has a story or ten about "that guy." And it'll be the same guy. But they don't KNOW.

I have no idea how you could study this phenomena. The one where people will tell stories about pervie-guy, and yet claim that no-one really knew at the same time. That sort of self-delusion doesn't lend itself to a survey of the people in the six-degrees around the pedophile convicted.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
*So you're honestly telling me you've never had that feeling and been wrong?* Because I have. And I know others have been as well.

Trusting your feelings is one thing. Closing your mind off to all other possibilities and casting someone guilty based only on your feeling isn't right IMO.

I doubt arguing about this is going to change my mind on the matter.







The OP asked for advice and I think she's been given a nice mix of advice from many points of view.

No, I haven't had that feeling and been wrong. Its only been three times in my life that I have had that feeling, and all three times I, and others I found out after the fact, had a feeling to.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I wish there was stats on it. I doubt that anyone has done a study on it.

However, you may go out and talk to ANY people who lived in a place with a molester. A town with "that guy". Any sub-culture or group or neighbourhood. Where EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go.

Interesting theory....I completely disagree though. I have yet to see where there was a case where "EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go."

I have heard cases where people jump on the hindsight bandwagon and come up with several examples after the fact that all of a sudden 'make sense' when someone is arrested for molestation.

I am also personally involved in a case where NO ONE knew until the child revealed what happened. There weren't any accidental anythings to see and forget. EVERYONE is shocked and completely blown away this guy commited these acts.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

If the parent wasn't abusive in any way, the child wouldn't be in danger and no phone calls or reports would be made. Am I wrong here? I equate being an abusive parent to being a crappy parent.

When I said learn more, I was referring to the situation, as the OP stated it. Not you personally.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
If the parent wasn't abusive in any way, the child wouldn't be in danger and no phone calls or reports would be made. Am I wrong here? I equate being an abusive parent to being a crappy parent.

Innocent people are often reported to CPS. Are you saying that there are no innocent people? That if CPS was called on you it was *obviously* because you're a crappy parent... because thats what your first statement looked like.

Peoples feelings can be wrong sometimes. One creepy vibe doesn't make a child abuser. It makes a creepy vibe and heightened awareness. Maybe its something, maybe its not.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
No, I haven't had that feeling and been wrong. Its only been three times in my life that I have had that feeling, and all three times I, and others I found out after the fact, had a feeling to.

Perhaps this is where we differ. I have had that creepy feeling and had it be false. Or even had it be something inconclusive but nothing that progressed to WARNING WARNING! level. Additionally I've had the feeling and been right about it sometimes too.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
If the parent wasn't abusive in any way, the child wouldn't be in danger and no phone calls or reports would be made. Am I wrong here? I equate being an abusive parent to being a crappy parent.

When I said learn more, I was referring to the situation, as the OP stated it. Not you personally.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Innocent people are often reported to CPS. Are you saying that there are no innocent people? That if CPS was called on you it was *obviously* because you're a crappy parent... because thats what your first statement looked like.

Peoples feelings can be wrong sometimes. One creepy vibe doesn't make a child abuser. It makes a creepy vibe and heightened awareness. Maybe its something, maybe its not.

SS, many people around here think that CPS is always evil.

Nature, what SS is saying (I think) is that if someone reports it and there is nothing to it then nothing will happen. Case closed. If the girl says she isn't being abused, if there are no physical signs, thats it, its over.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
SS, many people around here think that CPS is always evil.

Nature, what SS is saying (I think) is that if someone reports it and there is nothing to it then nothing will happen. Case closed. If the girl says she isn't being abused, if there are no physical signs, thats it, its over.

I think CPS is pretty flawed. Evil? No. But certainly can be dangerous and risky. I think it needs to be rebuilt.

And being on the other end of the "nothing to it" case.. I can say it doesn't always get "nothing will happen" case closed.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
My grandmother was a very loving and very AP woman. (though I doubt she knew she was at the time) She was tuned into me. She was connected.

However, my father lived with us too. My grandmother was my parent, she took care of me. And my father molested me from the age of birth to 9. For NINE years he molested me. Not here and there either. Daily. And my grandmother had no idea. No one did. Not until I told someone when I was 9 years old. There was nothing to see. No creepy vibes. Nothing. And I might add, he was my biological father not my step father.










I believe you, i do. But i have such a hard time wrapping my mind around how an attentive parent could not know *something* was going on with the child. Because then what we are essentially saying, is that sexual abuse doesnt hurt the child in any obvious way, it doesnt change behavior, it doesnt cause any physical ramifications, the child never acts out...that there are no signs. How could there be no signs?

There was a terrible case recently that was in the national news, about a little girl caught on tape being raped by a pedophile, they tracked down the girl, turns out the man was somehow involved with the child's babysitter. The mother of the child says (its been a few years)she had no idea anything happened, and that the girl herself doesnt remember. I dont really "get" how you can drop your perfectly healthy well adjusted three yr old at the babysitter, pick her up a few hours later (after she's just been brutally assaulted), and not realize *something* is up with your kid? Maybe you wouldnt automatically jump to abuse...but something?

I guess i'm veering close to mother-blaming, and i dont mean to, honestly. But i can pick up on when my child has gone to a friend's home and come home with hurt feelings, even if he didnt say anything. I can tell when my child is not wanting to tell me something. I can tell when my child is feeling under the weather, or there is a cold or sickness coming on, and he's just not his usual self. So, for those of you who have been in situations similar to Nature's (child being abused, and mother or someone else close to the child truly doesnt know)....how is it that this happens? I always jump to the conclusion that if the mother doesnt know, its because she doesnt *want* to know, won't allow her mind to go there. Maybe some pedophiles are so incredibly slick they can cover their tracks well....but can the child herself do such a good acting job, 100 percent of the time?

This topic is so depressing.









Katherine


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

I agree, it really is depressing.
To answer your question Nature, no I've never had those feelings and it turns out they were wrong. Thank gods I dont get them all that often to not rememeber the outcome of my creepy feelings tho.
I did mean that if there was nothing to the charge, then the parents weren't "crappy". Having CPS show up at your door doesn't scar your reputation for life. I'll even go out on a limb and tell you that its happened in my family.
If the friends or family don't accept that there was a misunderstanding, I don't think they thought that highly of the accused to begin with.

We're all about perception. My perception is different than yours, I accept that. If someone percieves my child to be in danger from me, I'd hope that that someone would dig a little further before calling me in. THAT is what I was saying. Innocent people are persecuted all the time, I don't know what else to say about that. But I believe that protection is the first priority.

What it comes down to is believing that a child is in danger and debating what to do about it. Like I said, knowledge is power. Do some investigating of your own. If it turns out to be what you thought, then call in the big guns.

This is clearly a very sensitive topic and due to its sensitive nature, emotions can become high and words misunderstood. These are the dangers of online communications.
Houdini and Demeter I just went back and read all the posts between you two and I think that you are both being general in your statements but then the other takes them personally. Your communications have become too distorted to keep clear and I hope you both take a step back, maybe reread your posts and try again to avoid someone becomming seriously offended and hurt.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
No. I did not see her coming out of the house. And YES, it is entirely possible that she made up the story about being in the house. She DID come from the area of the house, but we didn't see her actually come out of the door. She HAD snuck out either in the night or early in the morning. She DID have their skateboard, AND she knew the neighbor girl's name, even though her mother had never heard of the new girl before.

As I said, this neighbor girl escapes occasionally. She gets in trouble constantly, she is completely unsupervised at home, and that is why she can leave so easily. There isn't even a screen on her window, and her window is in the front of the house.

So, the part about her being "missing" was not a suprise. But, I was surprised when she said "Katies dad let me borrow this". So, since she knew the new girl's name, had apparently been out most of the night, and had their skateboard, I will assume she was telling the truth. She doesn't lie very often.. she pretty much just tells you what is on her mind, even if it is shocking and innapropriate . But, it is not out of the realm of possibility either. I don't think she would steal the skateboard though.

I'm going to don my flame-proof suit and say this as gently as possible.

But based on the different versions of the skateboard story that you have presented -- which each got a little more damning -- I'm going to respectfully submit that you've gotten carried away with your fears. First the girl was riding down the street, then she was inside his home at 7 am, and then he had something to do with her being missing overnight because she came out of his house.

Perhaps your reasoning is sound and you have a child molestor and a girl in need in your neighborhood. I am not in any way trying to diminish your instincts and intuitions about something being a little off.

But your versions of other facts are becoming more inflammatory and damning, and it does make me wonder about the rest of the story.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I believe you, i do. But i have such a hard time wrapping my mind around how an attentive parent could not know *something* was going on with the child. Because then what we are essentially saying, is that sexual abuse doesnt hurt the child in any obvious way, it doesnt change behavior, it doesnt cause any physical ramifications, the child never acts out...that there are no signs. How could there be no signs?

There was a terrible case recently that was in the national news, about a little girl caught on tape being raped by a pedophile, they tracked down the girl, turns out the man was somehow involved with the child's babysitter. The mother of the child says (its been a few years)she had no idea anything happened, and that the girl herself doesnt remember. I dont really "get" how you can drop your perfectly healthy well adjusted three yr old at the babysitter, pick her up a few hours later (after she's just been brutally assaulted), and not realize *something* is up with your kid? Maybe you wouldnt automatically jump to abuse...but something?

I guess i'm veering close to mother-blaming, and i dont mean to, honestly. But i can pick up on when my child has gone to a friend's home and come home with hurt feelings, even if he didnt say anything. I can tell when my child is not wanting to tell me something. I can tell when my child is feeling under the weather, or there is a cold or sickness coming on, and he's just not his usual self. So, for those of you who have been in situations similar to Nature's (child being abused, and mother or someone else close to the child truly doesnt know)....how is it that this happens? I always jump to the conclusion that if the mother doesnt know, its because she doesnt *want* to know, won't allow her mind to go there. Maybe some pedophiles are so incredibly slick they can cover their tracks well....but can the child herself do such a good acting job, 100 percent of the time?

This topic is so depressing.









Katherine

I think in some cases the changes in behavior coincide with other changes in the child's life.....school starting, puberty, etc. The signs can't be distinguished b/c they are happening around stressful situations anyway. It doesn't mean the mother/father doesn't see a change.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

*SIGNS??*

Many of you here are talking about getting to know the familiy and look for signs. This may have been the only sign....ever. You can't predict the future and you sure can't change the past. So while you sit there and wonder about the new family that little girl could be getting raped every day.

Let see either she is getting raped or the guy is totally innocent. Which one am I more worried about?

Yeah it could be wrong...but...what...if...it's....not!

I was a victim of sexual abuse by at least 4 different males in my life. It got to be "normal" for me. Almost every interaction I had with a grown male would turn into some type of inappropriatness. I didn't tell until anyone until I was 14 or 15 and my stepfather started paying attention to me. The man asked me to try on my new bathing suit and had his pants undone and his penis out when I came out. He would sit on the couch next to me and pull off his tie stretching his arm out to brush my breast. I would wake up at night and find him standing over me, touching me. I finally had enough power to protect myself because my stepfather was a weak, passive man but if he was determined and aggressive I may have been victimized further and longer.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
*SIGNS??*

Many of you here are talking about getting to know the familiy and look for signs. This may have been the only sign....ever. You can't predict the future and you sure can't change the past. So while you sit there and wonder about the new family that little girl could be getting raped every day.

Let see either she is getting raped or the guy is totally innocent. Which one and I more worried about?

Yeah it could be wrong...but...what...if...it's....not!

I was a victim of sexual abuse by at least 4 different males in my life. It got to be "normal" for me. Almost every interaction I had with a grown male would turn into some type of inappropriatness. I didn't tell until anyone until I was 14 or 15 and my stepfather started paying attention to me. The man asked me to try on my new bathing suit and had his pants undone and his penis out when I came out. He would sit on the couch next to me and pull off his tie stretching his arm out to brush my breast. I would wake up at night and find him standing over me, touching me. I finally had enough power to protect myself because my stepfather was a weak, passive man but if he was determined and aggressive I may have been victimized further and longer.

I agree the mandated reporter who was at the party could look into the issue further if she feels the need to do so. As far as I can tell, the majority of people were not talking about doing nothing.....I personally was saying get to know the family's background a bit further b/c there could be other things happening that no one knows about.

I get this is a personal subject and our experiences will determine our reaction. I think it is difficult to make a judgment on anyone based on a brief meeting. I think that first impressions can be wrong and I have personally experienced being wrong about my first impression about someone.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
I believe you, i do. But i have such a hard time wrapping my mind around how an attentive parent could not know *something* was going on with the child. Because then what we are essentially saying, is that sexual abuse doesnt hurt the child in any obvious way, it doesnt change behavior, it doesnt cause any physical ramifications, the child never acts out...that there are no signs. How could there be no signs?

I can only answer for my situation, and how I guess a lot of them play out. For me, I was molested since birth. It was chronic, ritualistic, and repetitive. So for me, I literally had no idea that it wasn't normal. It was simply something I grew up with. Much like how in some other countries 10 year olds getting married, and having babies is their normal. I might have been in the US, however in my little corner of the world I didn't know any different. I went to a christian school that didn't teach anything about "my body" and good touches and bad touches. In fact, years later the pastor at my school started fondling me as well and no one knew. When I tried to speak out about him, I was laughed at. He's still the pastor there today.

I can honestly say, as a child.. my father molesting me didn't have any impact on my life. It was normal to me, so why would there be an obvious impact? Later on, oh yes. I am not minimizing the effects of molestation at all! But when its chronic from a very young age, the impact sometimes just isn't there. It becomes as normal as Saturday morning cartoons and the grumpy old lady next door that scowls at you every day.

Backrubs were his method. Every day he'd rub my back. And eventually he'd have me flip over. When I was 9, it was the first time I experienced an orgasm from something he'd done. This was NOT normal from my experiences. It scared me. So later, I told my aunt about it. I had hoped she would explain to me what happened. Instead, I never saw my father again and I was forced to tell my "story" over and over and over again. To be honest, I had no memories of other times he molested me aside from that one. My mind was blank. Only years later did I start to see flashbacks of other times, varying ages. In fact, not until after the birth of my first child.

Backrubs were important to me on one level. Since birth my grandmother always rubbed my back to help me sleep. We co-slept until age 9 as well. (my grandmother and I) So backrubs had a very positive connection to me. Its how I felt loved. So my father rubbing my back all the time wasn't something that was odd to me. In fact, that made me feel loved. That fact that he took other liberties wasn't even something that registered as bad. I was more traumatized by the police and DA involvement than from the molestation itself. The ramifications of being molested didn't happen until after I was nearly an adult and lost my virginity.

The only thing that could have ever been seen as a red flag back when I was a child, was that I did act out sexually with one friend of mine. But from most posters in previous threads on MDC about sex play, most feel its totally normal and age appropriate. However, mine was not. I was consumed with recreating feelings in my body. I masturbated a lot. Again, something that _can_ be totally normal. So did my grandmother completely miss the signs? I don't think so. I know they were not right in her face. The sex play was never under her watch, it was always at a friends house because the mother didn't stay in the room with us. I masturbated in my bed at night once the lights were off. I doubt she even knew how much I did because it wasn't obvious.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
Having CPS show up at your door doesn't scar your reputation for life. I'll even go out on a limb and tell you that its happened in my family.

I disagree here. I'm glad your experience wasn't negative and didn't scar you for life. However mine did. And our reputation is ruined in this area for life.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
I agree, it really is depressing.
To answer your question Nature, no I've never had those feelings and it turns out they were wrong. Thank gods I dont get them all that often to not rememeber the outcome of my creepy feelings tho.
I did mean that if there was nothing to the charge, then the parents weren't "crappy". Having CPS show up at your door doesn't scar your reputation for life. I'll even go out on a limb and tell you that its happened in my family.
If the friends or family don't accept that there was a misunderstanding, I don't think they thought that highly of the accused to begin with.

We're all about perception. My perception is different than yours, I accept that. If someone percieves my child to be in danger from me, I'd hope that that someone would dig a little further before calling me in. THAT is what I was saying. Innocent people are persecuted all the time, I don't know what else to say about that. But I believe that protection is the first priority.

What it comes down to is believing that a child is in danger and debating what to do about it. Like I said, knowledge is power. *Do some investigating of your own. If it turns out to be what you thought, then call in the big guns*.

This is clearly a very sensitive topic and due to its sensitive nature, emotions can become high and words misunderstood. These are the dangers of online communications.
Houdini and Demeter I just went back and read all the posts between you two and I think that you are both being general in your statements but then the other takes them personally. Your communications have become too distorted to keep clear and I hope you both take a step back, maybe reread your posts and try again to avoid someone becomming seriously offended and hurt.


This is my only problem with what you said. What qualifies anyone that is not trained in child abuse to investigate. What would you have to hear, see or sense that would tell you, "Yep, that girl is molested by her stepfather."? I really, really want to know.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I'm going to don my flame-proof suit and say this as gently as possible.

But based on the different versions of the skateboard story that you have presented -- which each got a little more damning -- I'm going to respectfully submit that you've gotten carried away with your fears.......
But your versions of other facts are becoming more inflammatory and damning, and it does make me wonder about the rest of the story.

I don't think the OP has made vastly different versions of the story or that she is trying to skew the presentation of the facts at all. I don't get that. From my view, the OP is trying to sort out whether her gut feelings are correct or not.

It sounds like you are scrutinizing and suspecting the OP, and I don't see any indicator at all that she is exaggerating or lying. I believe your scrutiny is misplaced.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
I wish there was stats on it. I doubt that anyone has done a study on it.

However, you may go out and talk to ANY people who lived in a place with a molester. A town with "that guy". Any sub-culture or group or neighbourhood. Where EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go.

Oh, it was just once. Oh, it was a mistake. Oh, he's "off" but not really that bad. Oh, they ask for it and he can't help it. Oh, he's misunderstood. Oh, I can handle him. I taught my children better. He didn't really mean to put his hand there, tickle her there, that boob-grab was an accident....etc. etc. etc.

Molesters and pedophiles are rarely unknown. They are simply ignored. They rely on your and my complicity.

When you out them, and try to point out their behaviour and compare notes and point out that everyone knows something about the person, everyone has seen something bad, everyone has watched him do it, people will actually fight you about it. Seen it happen numerous times now. I hear about it. I watch old ladies talk about it, and they'll ARGUE that no one really KNEW ....but every one of them has a story or ten about "that guy." And it'll be the same guy. But they don't KNOW.

I have no idea how you could study this phenomena. The one where people will tell stories about pervie-guy, and yet claim that no-one really knew at the same time. That sort of self-delusion doesn't lend itself to a survey of the people in the six-degrees around the pedophile convicted.

The majority of molesters are someone who is close to the family. A friend, a father, an uncle. MOST molesters are not known because of this, and the ones you are describing are in the minority. It is statistically proven that the majority of children who are molested are molested by someone the family trusts. I would also like to see som sort of statistical proof that most molesters are suspected by their neighbors before caught.

I know people personally who's biological father molested their children and my friend had no clue until the daughter talked to her about it. Once she know then plenty of actions were taken and the father is no longer in the home and legal proceedings have happened.

The vast majority are not 'known' or 'suspected' They are your uncles, brothers, and fathers. And to be honest sometimes even mothers. But the vast majority are not suspected until after the fact people go back and look for signs that probably weren't there to start with but make themselves feel guilty for not 'seeing' it sooner.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Maybe some pedophiles are so incredibly slick they can cover their tracks well....but can the child herself do such a good acting job, 100 percent of the time?

This topic is so depressing.









Katherine

Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I think in some cases the changes in behavior coincide with other changes in the child's life.....school starting, puberty, etc. The signs can't be distinguished b/c they are happening around stressful situations anyway. It doesn't mean the mother/father doesn't see a change.

Her story hasn't changed. The troubled girl came from that side of the street with a skateboard that she says was given to her by the dad to use. Nobody knows how long the girl was gone and nobody saw her come out of the house.

_Oops, Sorry Houdini, I quoted the wrong person. I meant to quote the person above you. I'll leave it alone though since some threads are being removed and I'd rather not mess with what doesn't appear to be too broken._


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Also, I want to address the people who are saying to invite the couple over for dinner. I would NOT invite someone into my house if I have a creepy vibe about them. I wouldn't want them to know where my child's bedroom was or the layout of my house. And yes, I AM a little paranoid about that.

Lisa


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.

So true. And hanging out with neighbors while your stepfather constantly touches you and pulls you towards him makes it seem even more normal. I remember when my stepfather got pulled over by the cops for letting me drive his car while I was sitting on his lap. I was 14 btw. The cops wanted to arrest him and kept coming over to me and saying "are you ok" "why were you sitting on his lap?" "where is your mother?" and all kinds of questions. It dawned on me that my sitting on his lap wasn't normal. I knew I wasn't comfortable, but someone outside validated it for me that it wasn't right or normal. So much worse happened in private that it hardly dawned on me that this was anything at all.

Also, I would justify that I could have it much worse....in fostercare, I would tell myself, they would rape and beat me. I would justify that I was safer here because somewhere else would be worse.

Normalization is the word.
Lisa


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
Also, I want to address the people who are saying to invite the couple over for dinner. I would NOT invite someone into my house if I have a creepy vibe about them. I wouldn't want them to know where my child's bedroom was or the layout of my house. And yes, I AM a little paranoid about that.

Lisa

Personally, I never said to invite them for dinner, or even inside your house. I just said get to know them. Who knows, maybe the creepy feeling would be for nothing and you WOULD want them for dinner. But you'll never get to know that unless you extend yourself a bit.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Personally, I never said to invite them for dinner, or even inside your house. I just said get to know them. Who knows, maybe the creepy feeling would be for nothing and you WOULD want them for dinner. But you'll never get to know that unless you extend yourself a bit.

Yes, extend yourself, but not by inviting them inside. Maybe a few more block parties, or some one on one time with the mother. There have been a few high profile kidnapping cases where children were taken from their homes by someone who had been inside of the house previously.

Maybe out for pizza or another child-friendly restaurant..or to the movies?


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
Yes, extend yourself, but not by inviting them inside. Maybe a few more block parties, or some one on one time with the mother. There have been a few high profile kidnapping cases where children were taken from their homes by someone who had been inside of the house previously.

Maybe out for pizza or another child-friendly restaurant..or to the movies?

I think those are all great ideas.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm a bit more forward than some I guess. But I think your ideas are great as well.

To answer the question about HOW I'd gather more info, I meant finding out more about their family dynamics. Was the girl, as some have suggested here, grounded? Is there a history of social problems? Does the child have some kind of disorder that would disable her from playing? Are there extenuating circumstances, such as a violent ex, that would keep them from allowing her out of their sight? Are the step father and the girl very close and cuddly all the time?
THIS is how I investigate on my own.

But how many days have passed now since the situation was noticed by the OP? Whats been done to ensure that the girl ISN'T in any danger?


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

I just had to jump in here and give







to all of you.

This thread has become very emotional, and personal. I think we all need to remember that everyones experiences are different. The thing about abuse, and molestation, is that there is no REAL 'pattern' for it. What is true in one case, is opposit in the other. That is why is is sometimes hard to detect, and sometimes falsly accused.

With that said, I think the OP needs to evaluated all of this as it pertains to THIS situation. Many of you are refuring back to your own experiences, and building off of that. This case is different from any I have heard on here so far. This is a father who has been around for only three years. He was very touchy feeling, and the girl seemed uncomfurtable with it. The part that keeps sticking out in my mind is that he had his hands on her chest. Girls at 10 are going threw sex edd in school. They are learning good touch, bad touch, they are learning about their changing bodys, and may even be beggining to develope. Personally, this should be the time to limit touching, and YES, it is more than okay to be effectionate and coudly. I think we all can agree that this seems, (as it was posted) to be different.

What to do? I agree calling CPS can be detremental if this feeling is wrong. However, it can be horrible if OP's feeling is correct, and she does nothing about it. What can be learned by more visits with this family? What if by getting to know them better, your feeling goes away? Does this mean your feeling was wrong? How long has this father been in the girls life? Just becuase they have only been married 3 years, he could have been around since infancy. Also wanted to point out, that any excuses of illness, being grounded, having social anxieties or the like, does not excuse touch a pre-teen in her chest area.

Some of you who have had experiences where there was no warning signs in the child, are also the ones saying not to call CPS until you get more info. If there are no other warning signs, what other info can you expect to get? I am not agreeing with one veiw or another, to be honest I can't give advise, I could only do what I felt was right if I was in that situation. I think the OP needs to read all of this back and really try to think about all sides, and how it pertains to this situation, before making any decisions.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Some of you who have had experiences where there was no warning signs in the child, are also the ones saying not to call CPS until you get more info. If there are no other warning signs, what other info can you expect to get? I am not agreeing with one veiw or another, to be honest I can't give advise, I could only do what I felt was right if I was in that situation. I think the OP needs to read all of this back and really try to think about all sides, and how it pertains to this situation, before making any decisions.

My biggest issue with the whole situation is the 1.5 spent with the family. It is taking a snapshot of the family and basing everything on that one moment in time. I am not a big proponent on basing my opinions on a person based on one brief meeting.

Again, it is all about individual perspective and level of comfort.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi, several posts have been ttmporarily removed from this thread. Let's keep this thread from becoming ugly. If you have an issue with something someone has said and feel very strongly about it, please take it to private message. The posts that have been removed either had an argumentative tone, or they quoted a posts that needed to be removed, if you'd like to edit, pm me.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

One more update..

But, first, I hurt my back last night, and it really hurts to sit down here, so I am kinda reading the thread, but I am not posting much. I'm not ignoring the thread though.

Anyway.. The teacher mom can't give me any details, but she did say that the school is aware of a problem, and they have been dealing with it on their end. BUT, she did not say if the problem was something at home, or something at school, or something entirely different. So, I still have no idea what is happening.

I'm actually kindof relieved to know that she is doing something. I don't know it I am relieved because I didn't really know what to do and I am glad someone else is. Or if it is just because I don't feel good, and I just don't want to deal with anything else.

But, I will still keep my eyes open of course.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
One more update..

But, first, I hurt my back last night, and it really hurts to sit down here, so I am kinda reading the thread, but I am not posting much. I'm not ignoring the thread though.

Anyway.. The teacher mom can't give me any details, but she did say that the school is aware of a problem, and they have been dealing with it on their end. BUT, she did not say if the problem was something at home, or something at school, or something entirely different. So, I still have no idea what is happening.

I'm actually kindof relieved to know that she is doing something. I don't know it I am relieved because I didn't really know what to do and I am glad someone else is. Or if it is just because I don't feel good, and I just don't want to deal with anything else.

But, I will still keep my eyes open of course.

kudos to you for following your instincts


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

I have not read this thread all the way through--so if the following points have been brought up, please disregard.

But, I wonder if 'getting to know' the family really does the OP any good?
I mean, how awful would it be to 'get to know them' and have your first and gut instincts turned around (i.e., into thinking--hey stepdad's not so creepy afterall) only to find out later that he was molesting the child all along and you were right in the first place?
I find it kind of odd that many folks on this board tell each other to 'go with your gut' and to read Protecting the Gift and other related material, but when something comes down like this, it gets a heated discussion going.

Also, I noted that there was some discussion (again, I didn't get all the details because I didn't read all the posts--so disregard if I'm off) but was there some 'talk' or neighborhood discussion (for lack of a better term) about the first impressions of many of this famiy? Some posters didn't seem happy that the OP talked to others in the neighborhood about creepy stepdad--am I getting this right?
I just want to say, when I have friends or neighbors that I feel comfortable with--I am not at all shy at saying: I saw this--did you see what I saw? Has there been that kind of talk? If so, I would say the OP is completely justified in talking to the neighbors about her concerns. I call it being validated. We do it as women all the time--and I don't think it can be compared to talking about the neighbors behind their backs. If something set the OP's radar off, and she wants to validate her feelings--did you see what I saw? I don't think that's at all talking behind the backs of the new family.

I read the initial post and then the last three or four pages of this thread. I have to say, I think I would have done the same--validated my feelings with others who were there and then consider what action I need to take. After all, she even came here to validate her feelings before running to the phone to call CPS or anyone else. I think she's got a good gut feeling and she's looking for some advice. Unfortunately, doing this may have muddied the water even more.

Finally, I do agree with the pp who said that anyone (male or female, parent or not) touching a preteen girl around the chest (or breast) area is not acceptable behavior. At all.

OP, this is a tough situation. I guess the only thing is: be sure that whatever YOU do is something that you can live with--either by making a phone call, or contacting a third party, etc., or not. Either way, there are going to be consequences. If it were me, I'd go with my gut. In all honesty, the fact that this guy has his hands on the child's chest is a big no-no and could probably be considered abuse right there. If it were a teacher or a coach doing that, they would be fired. In this case or any other, a parent or a step-parent, I still think it would be considered inappropriate behavior--based on her AGE and the ACTIONS of the parent (rubbing her chest). And I 'love on' my kids all the time--but I know I wouldn't allow that to go on at that age. No way. Kissing on the head is one thing, rubbing them over their clothes in their private areas is another.

The last thing that crosses my mind is this: I wonder if (maybe this is a stretch--maybe not) this man does this kind of thing on purpose as a kind of 'see what I can do' with the child. If this girl is being molested--in her mind--the fact that the whole neighborhood sat there and saw him do this and did nothing is probably just one more reason that she will believe that she can tell no one because no one will ever do a thing to protect her.
Because the mother didn't seem to mind may have NOTHING to do with whether the child is being molested--instead it might mean that she would choose the new spouse over the child. Oprah had an episode about this very thing (maybe a few, but I saw only one). I was pretty shocked that a mother could do this--but they can and do.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl* 
The last thing that crosses my mind is this: I wonder if (maybe this is a stretch--maybe not) this man does this kind of thing on purpose as a kind of 'see what I can do' with the child. If this girl is being molested--in her mind--the fact that the whole neighborhood sat there and saw him do this and did nothing is probably just one more reason that she will believe that she can tell no one because no one will ever do a thing to protect her.

Yeah, that crossed my mind as well, but you posted it before I could.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
One more update..

But, first, I hurt my back last night, and it really hurts to sit down here, so I am kinda reading the thread, but I am not posting much. I'm not ignoring the thread though.

Anyway.. The teacher mom can't give me any details, but she did say that the school is aware of a problem, and they have been dealing with it on their end. BUT, she did not say if the problem was something at home, or something at school, or something entirely different. So, I still have no idea what is happening.

I'm actually kindof relieved to know that she is doing something. I don't know it I am relieved because I didn't really know what to do and I am glad someone else is. Or if it is just because I don't feel good, and I just don't want to deal with anything else.

But, I will still keep my eyes open of course.

I'm glad to hear that at least someone is looking into it.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

This whole rubbing the chest area I don't get. Really, were his hands *ON* her breasts and holding or rubbing them? or were his arms around her shoulders and above her breasts? or simply around her? It _does_ make a big difference.

My husband puts his arms around my 9 yo dd all the time. His arms end up resting over or on her chest area. He certainly isn't rubbing anything, or touching her in an inappropriate way at all. No one is uncomfortable with it. Its not sexual or controlling. Its just his arms around her.









However it seems people are saying OMG!! HE WAS TOUCHING HER _BREASTS!_ I need clarification. Was he _really_ fondling her breasts in front of you? Or were his arms simply crossed around her? It makes a *HUGE* difference.

Because.. you know, when people hug.. they are technically smooshing their breasts up against you. No one considers that inappropriate. Its all in the intentions. Arms around a child, I wouldn't be concerned about. Groping hands and blatantly holding and fondling her breast... would be inappropriate.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

OK, here I have to seriously disagree with you. Hands on her chest is a HUGE no no.. Her chest is where her breasts will be growing, she's 10 years old. My oldest daughter is only 8, and she's been taught for a couple years already that NO ONE is allowed to touch her private areas, and her chest is included in this.
The OP wasn't confused on this point, she didn't once suggest he was fondling her, but the fact that his arms never left her was disturbing enough. There's a difference between cuddling your child and detaining your child.

I can understand not wanting to full on accuse this man of molestation, and I understand wanting to keep an objective stance here. But you seem determined in your insistance that he was not crossing any boundaries. I'm confused by your total opposition to the possibility even that he may be in the wrong..







:


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
My husband puts his arms around my 9 yo dd all the time. His arms end up resting over or on her chest area. He certainly isn't rubbing anything, or touching her in an inappropriate way at all. No one is uncomfortable with it. Its not sexual or controlling. Its just his arms around her.









And thats the point in this whole thread...*No one is uncomfortable with it.* I think that is VERY important. The OP stated the girl looked uncomfortable. Lots of other people thought it was inappropriate (and these sound like some pretty freewheeling nonconservative people from the OPs description!)

The same action can take on a *whole* different meaning, in a different context.

Quote:

Because.. you know, when people hug.. they are technically smooshing their breasts up against you. No one considers that inappropriate. Its all in the intentions. Arms around a child, I wouldn't be concerned about. .
But now you are contradicting yourself...you said it was all in the intentions. But certain behaviors you wouldnt be concerned about. But even if this child were merely sitting on his lap, which no one would consider inappropriate....if the girl looked uncomfortable, the stepdad seemed possessive, and lots of people who were actually there thought it seemed weird...then it sorta does become concerning....*because its all in the intentions.*

I used to work at a nursing home for disabled children. One little girl there, maybe 8 yrs old (totally disabled, nonambulatory, nonverbal)had a stepfather who would come in and spend time with her. He would play bouncy with her between his legs, with her held close to her crotch area. He would change her diaper even though staff were more than happy to do it instead. He would wheel her around the grounds alone. One day, a coworker looked out the window and saw him sitting on the outside steps (there was no one around, and presumably he didnt know that anyone could see him, there were seperate wings to the building and he could easily have assumed that those windows were to the offices which were unoccupied on the weekend)...she saw him with the girl in his lap, and he was kissing her all over her neck and caressing her.

A stepdad spending time with his disabled daughter and merely showing her affection? Well, maybe...except most of the staff got a serious creep vibe from this guy. The staff member told on him, and we all promptly got reprimanded for "gossipping" about family members.







Staff member called CPS...was basically told nothing would be done. It was terrible.

So....i still say, people should trust their instincts. Most people are good at picking up when something is a little off. I think if this was just normal affection, people would see that. I dont think its necessary to come up with some criteria (hand on knee ok, hand on thigh not ok, or whatever)....because, as you say....*its all in the intentions*. And since we can't know whats inside stepdads head, i think all we really have to go on is the feelings of those who were actually there.

Katherine


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
This whole rubbing the chest area I don't get. Really, were his hands *ON* her breasts and holding or rubbing them? or were his arms around her shoulders and above her breasts? or simply around her? It _does_ make a big difference.

My husband puts his arms around my 9 yo dd all the time. His arms end up resting over or on her chest area. He certainly isn't rubbing anything, or touching her in an inappropriate way at all. No one is uncomfortable with it. Its not sexual or controlling. Its just his arms around her.









However it seems people are saying OMG!! HE WAS TOUCHING HER _BREASTS!_ I need clarification. Was he _really_ fondling her breasts in front of you? Or were his arms simply crossed around her? It makes a *HUGE* difference.

Because.. you know, when people hug.. they are technically smooshing their breasts up against you. No one considers that inappropriate. Its all in the intentions. Arms around a child, I wouldn't be concerned about. Groping hands and blatantly holding and fondling her breast... would be inappropriate.

I've actually been wondering the exact same thing while reading this thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
OK, here I have to seriously disagree with you. Hands on her chest is a HUGE no no.. Her chest is where her breasts will be growing, she's 10 years old. My oldest daughter is only 8, and she's been taught for a couple years already that NO ONE is allowed to touch her private areas, and her chest is included in this.
The OP wasn't confused on this point, she didn't once suggest he was fondling her, but the fact that his arms never left her was disturbing enough. There's a difference between cuddling your child and detaining your child.

I can understand not wanting to full on accuse this man of molestation, and I understand wanting to keep an objective stance here. But you seem determined in your insistance that he was not crossing any boundaries. I'm confused by your total opposition to the possibility even that he may be in the wrong..







:

I've been wondering the exact same thing, I just haven't been as vocal. I've been reading Nature's posts
and agreeing. So it's not that Nature is the only one thinking this, it's just that she's the one who has been
writing the most clear posts with this opinion.

Personally when I read the first post the only reason I felt the OP had any reason to worry was her creepy
feeling. The actions of the step-father with his dd weren't all that troubling to me personally.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Earlier in the thread i posted this:

Quote:

i have a neighbor who is creepy....he just weirds me out, he has my whole childhood. Do i think he molested his children? No, probably not...but he's still weird, and it actually wouldnt surprise me at all to find there was some iffy family dynamics going on.
Tonight i was telling my sister about this thread, and mentioned the part above that i wrote. She said that a girl who used to live across the street (who's probably in her forties now) told her years ago that when she was 14 and went on a camping trip with the neighbor (who gives me the creeps) and his family, he fondled her.







Go figure. I guess that kinda confirms my suspicions of him being creepy!

Katherine


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

The OP met this family and was around them for 1.5 hours....correct?

There seem to be a lot of assumptions for having just met a family.

The little girl looked uncomfortable.....maybe/maybe not.....how do you determine that after just meeting this child. She may have been uncomfortable by the setting or the music or any number of things....or she may not have been uncomfortable at all.

I agree with Nature about the chest issue as well. If the child is not developing, then I don't see the issue of placing hands on the chest....I do take issue if there was fondling, but that wasn't described. My daughter has been taught all about good touch/bad touch as well. She is now developing and I have to remind myself of placement of hands even now.....just not used to watching out for breasts. I come up behind her frequently and hold her up against me with my hands across her chest...I always have. I don't see it as a major thing. I do understand the whole don't touch private parts line of thinking, but when does that come into affect? Does it stop a year before puberty or as she starts to develop or never occur? I would guess it differs for all families.

I don't see where Nature is saying there is no way he could be in the wrong.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I don't see where Nature is saying there is no way he could be in the wrong.

Thank you. I'm absolutely not saying he might not be wrong in touching, or even guilty of molesting the girl. I am simply confused on the touching the chest point. Because it does make a difference. Yes, touches are often good or bad depending on the intention. Is a doctor touching your breasts good or bad? Intention. The same can be said for a stranger, or even your own husband. And I do think intuition is important as well. I just rely on other things to help me decide to.

In this situation, its not clear to me how much he was touching her breasts or how. I was looking for clarification.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
OK, here I have to seriously disagree with you. Hands on her chest is a HUGE no no.. Her chest is where her breasts will be growing, she's 10 years old. My oldest daughter is only 8, and she's been taught for a couple years already that NO ONE is allowed to touch her private areas, and her chest is included in this.
The OP wasn't confused on this point, she didn't once suggest he was fondling her, but the fact that his arms never left her was disturbing enough. There's a difference between cuddling your child and detaining your child.

I can understand not wanting to full on accuse this man of molestation, and I understand wanting to keep an objective stance here. But you seem determined in your insistance that he was not crossing any boundaries. I'm confused by your total opposition to the possibility even that he may be in the wrong..







:









My 2 yo has a chest area that will someday develop into breasts. Am I not allowed to put my arms around her, or hold her in a way that my hands might come in contact with her chest? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that. My dd is 9 years old. She isn't fully developed, but is starting. I don't grope her breasts because I'm not a pedophile. However I see nothing wrong with putting my arms around her. Nor do I see anything wrong with her step father putting his arms around her. If she suddenly became self conscious, or sensitive, or for whatever reason asked us to stop putting our arms around her or wrestling with her we would 100% respect that!

I guess I don't get tiptoeing around your children and avoiding body parts simply because one day they might be used sexually. Its possible to teach your children that their body is to be respected by everyone and that no one should touch them without permission, and still not be so uptight about it and freak out about an arm across their chest.

I get that the OP _said_ the child was uncomfortable. Though I agree, there is no way to really tell from one meeting if it was even the touch that was making her feel uncomfortable and not say.. the adults drinking, or even the OP. There is no way to tell from one meeting that the child _isn't_ okay with that kind of touch. It was an arm across her chest. Its pretty normal for most children to be okay with that from their parent. I don't expect the same qualifiers of "okay" and "normal" if we were talking about his hands down her pants!

If she comes to the OP and says she isn't comfortable with it, or she said outloud that night that she wasn't.. THEN something can be said to the childs mother about the possibility that the step father is not respecting her boundaries. Because that might be the only problem. Again, it might not be. Some people haven't raised pre-teens before. Its a new territory for a lot of people. I dont imagine that everyone knows that puberty and hormones change a lot of things for a child that used to not be a big deal. I know my ex husband has no clue about those kinds of things, but my dh does.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
This whole rubbing the chest area I don't get. Really, were his hands *ON* her breasts and holding or rubbing them? or were his arms around her shoulders and above her breasts? or simply around her? It _does_ make a big difference.

.

He wasn't rubbing her chest. He was standing behind her with both hands pressed flat against her chest. He leaned over her farther to rub her stomach while they were still standing in the same spot.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
He wasn't rubbing her chest. He was standing behind her with both hands pressed flat against her chest. He leaned over her farther to rub her stomach while they were still standing in the same spot.

Hmm... I guess to me it seems like maybe theres a possibility that she wasn't feeling well because of the rubbing the stomach part. Though I can't picture the hand placement as you say it, I can picture reaching down to give a tummy rub if I knew my dd wasn't feeling well.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Hmm... I guess to me it seems like maybe theres a possibility that she wasn't feeling well because of the rubbing the stomach part. Though I can't picture the hand placement as you say it, I can picture reaching down to give a tummy rub if I knew my dd wasn't feeling well.

Probably.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok, I give, I have standards of what I think is crossing lines, and hands on the chest of a 10 year old is one of them. To suggest that I would have issues touching the chest of a 3 year old is just silly and useless.
The man might have stepped over the line, in my opinion he did. But thats just MY opinion.
I really hope someone watches out for this girl and takes care of her. Innocence is such a preciously delicate thing.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
Ok, I give, I have standards of what I think is crossing lines, and hands on the chest of a 10 year old is one of them. To suggest that I would have issues touching the chest of a 3 year old is just silly and useless.
The man might have stepped over the line, in my opinion he did. But thats just MY opinion.
I really hope someone watches out for this girl and takes care of her. Innocence is such a preciously delicate thing.

And your argument seems silly to me I guess.







Still, I was asking for the difference because I cannot see one. Obviously you have your ideas about me and my dh "touching" my 9 yo dd's chest.







I'm trying to understand why you feel the way you do thats all.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

When I said " I give " I meant it in a neutral tone, I'm not at all offended by our differences of opinion. I appreciate our differences and through debate I learn more about you and you about me.
I don't have issues with your dh touching your daughters chest, you said its not his hands on her chest, its her arms around her chest. There IS a difference, but I went back and read the OP again and it specifically says the guys hands were on her chest. We're talking about a 10 year old so THAT bothers me. If it were a 3 year old, then no, it wouldn't seem inappropriate at all.
I guess this all disturbs me because I had a childhood that taught me alot, and tho I never believe I was the only kid in the world to barely survive it, I didn't think that molestation, at least, was so rampant as I've been learning it is. It's really disappointing and hurtful.

There is a chance that this guys not a sick pervert, but in my experiences, and in the experiences of a sad number of women I've talked to, the chances that she IS being molested are higher than the chances that she's not. Again, this is just MY opinion given the details of the OP.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

I had a father who innocently behaved in ways that others thought was inappropriate. My sister and I were uncomfortable too, but we tolerated it. We understood that he was still handling us like we were 5 and just didn't realize that we were starting to feel like we shouldn't be touched in certain areas. Our friends noticed, and they asked us about it. Maybe the best way to go about it is to have one of the kids ask the girl some questions? 10 year olds can understand what it is you are trying to check on, and wouldn't be as intimidating to her as an adult.

Personally, I think that fathers should be concerned enough about respecting their daughters' right to their own body as to stay far away from the line of what is appropriate.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sage_SS* 
When I said " I give " I meant it in a neutral tone, I'm not at all offended by our differences of opinion. I appreciate our differences and through debate I learn more about you and you about me.
I don't have issues with your dh touching your daughters chest, you said its not his hands on her chest, its her arms around her chest. There IS a difference, but I went back and read the OP again and it specifically says the guys hands were on her chest. We're talking about a 10 year old so THAT bothers me. If it were a 3 year old, then no, it wouldn't seem inappropriate at all.
I guess this all disturbs me because I had a childhood that taught me alot, and tho I never believe I was the only kid in the world to barely survive it, I didn't think that molestation, at least, was so rampant as I've been learning it is. It's really disappointing and hurtful.

There is a chance that this guys not a sick pervert, but in my experiences, and in the experiences of a sad number of women I've talked to, the chances that she IS being molested are higher than the chances that she's not. Again, this is just MY opinion given the details of the OP.

Oh good! I was afraid you were offended and I didn't mean for that. I was honestly just asking why you felt that way.









I do think there is a difference between arms and hands. I agree there. My dh does not put his hands on her chest area. I can't really see a reason why he would, even in wrestling or play. That said, my dh is also very aware of things like that. Being a survivor himself, and raising other girls.. he knows now is the age where girls develop and things can change a lot. He tries very hard to be respectful of that while still treating them the same. Its a fine line to be sure.









My uncle whom I lived with after my father abused me, would never touch me. He didn't hug me, or anything the way he did with his sons. I was so hurt by that. He refused to wrestle or play with me. Years later (we're talking.. last year) I finally talked to him about it and let him know after all these years.. how much that still hurt. His biggest reason for not touching me? I was going through puberty and it felt uncomfortable to him. He didn't want me to get the wrong idea, and didn't want to cross some line there. So instead of adapting and being mindful.. he totally stayed away and made me feel different and unwanted. Its something that greatly impacted me, and I never quite got over that feeling. He apologized 19 years later and admitted it was wrong of him. He said he was thinking more about himself and covering his own ass.. than how I felt.

Thats the situation that we don't want happening with our girls. So dh makes a huge effort to keep on the right side of that line, but to also never stop being their dad and never stop having fun as long as they are willing. Perhaps my own past is a big reason why I'm so passionate about not tiptoeing around things and just being mindful instead.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 

Personally, I think that fathers should be concerned enough about respecting their daughters' right to their own body as to stay far away from the line of what is appropriate.

I agree. One day when I was 11 my father asked me not to hold his hand crossing the street because he didn't want anyone to think I was his girlfriend. Although this was an extremely embarrassing thing to hear from one's own father, he had reason for concern. I wasn't super-developed, but I was tall and very poised, with adult speech patterns; so I went through a strange period where strangers thought I was seven to ten years older than I really was. When I was in the fifth grade, I passed as a college student and people would often be incredulous if I told the truth. Young men in their late teens would hit on me. And at least twice I remember during that period, people in restaurants mistook me and my dad for SO's on a date.

I know none of that is particularly relevant to what the OP posted about....but I think my father's judgment about holding my hand in that situation was correct. At the time, it hurt my feelings a bit and made me feel like "wtf???" but he was being protective of me by avoiding even the appearance of something weird. In comparison to which, the hurt feeling that quickly dissipated was barely a blip. I'm sure that strange phase would have been even stranger if he had insisted on some kind of "nothing comes between me and my pure little girl!!! get your mind out of the gutter, general public!!!!!!" idealism.

I think the instinct men have to give growing girls their space, especially non-bio-related girls, is a good one. Like it or not, men who do not display this instinct invite suspicion on themselves. They could be clueless, or they could be evil. Given the one-in-four statistic on female sexual victimization, I just find it unrealistic when people argue as though the clueless overwhelmingly outnumber the evil. That is what I meant when I mentioned male privilege earlier....the tendency to give men in general the benefit of the doubt to an extent totally unjustified by the statistical reality. Sure, give the individual the benefit of the doubt - within reason. But stridently protesting the injustice to all the poor, innocent, falsely suspected fathers out there is too much. Gavin DeBecker frequently makes the point that women shouldn't let their guard down for fear of offending, because innocent men aren't offended by female suspicion; they are sensitive enough to know that women have reason to be afraid and that it is their job not to add to that fear, and someone who's not planning to do anything has no reason to even care if you're on your guard or not. I think the principle extends, analogously, to the abstract level of arguments like this about what our attitudes should be. At this point, I think we're talking more general philosophy of the matter than the actual guy at the OP's block party. Given the element of unknowability, guesswork, and judgment calls in cases like this, it's more of a litmus test and reflection of our prejudices: do we incline to favor the class of people who (if something really was happening) would be the victims, or those who would be the perpetrators? Which potential injustice offends us more: a little girl continuing to be molested because we were too careful, or a man falling under false accusations because we were too aggressive? And what does that say about our deepest attitudes toward men and women, adults and children? How do we cope with the knowledge that neither form of error is completely avoidable?


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
I agree. One day when I was 11 my father asked me not to hold his hand crossing the street because he didn't want anyone to think I was his girlfriend. Although this was an extremely embarrassing thing to hear from one's own father, he had reason for concern. I wasn't super-developed, but I was tall and very poised, with adult speech patterns; so I went through a strange period where strangers thought I was seven to ten years older than I really was. When I was in the fifth grade, I passed as a college student and people would often be incredulous if I told the truth. Young men in their late teens would hit on me. And at least twice I remember during that period, people in restaurants mistook me and my dad for SO's on a date.

I know none of that is particularly relevant to what the OP posted about....but I think my father's judgment about holding my hand in that situation was correct. At the time, it hurt my feelings a bit and made me feel like "wtf???" but he was being protective of me by avoiding even the appearance of something weird. In comparison to which, the hurt feeling that quickly dissipated was barely a blip. I'm sure that strange phase would have been even stranger if he had insisted on some kind of "nothing comes between me and my pure little girl!!! get your mind out of the gutter, general public!!!!!!" idealism.

I think the instinct men have to give growing girls their space, especially non-bio-related girls, is a good one. Like it or not, men who do not display this instinct invite suspicion on themselves. They could be clueless, or they could be evil. Given the one-in-four statistic on female sexual victimization, I just find it unrealistic when people argue as though the clueless overwhelmingly outnumber the evil. That is what I meant when I mentioned male privilege earlier....the tendency to give men in general the benefit of the doubt to an extent totally unjustified by the statistical reality. Sure, give the individual the benefit of the doubt - within reason. But stridently protesting the injustice to all the poor, innocent, falsely suspected fathers out there is too much. Gavin DeBecker frequently makes the point that women shouldn't let their guard down for fear of offending, because innocent men aren't offended by female suspicion; they are sensitive enough to know that women have reason to be afraid and that it is their job not to add to that fear, and someone who's not planning to do anything has no reason to even care if you're on your guard or not. I think the principle extends, analogously, to the abstract level of arguments like this about what our attitudes should be. At this point, I think we're talking more general philosophy of the matter than the actual guy at the OP's block party. Given the element of unknowability, guesswork, and judgment calls in cases like this, it's more of a litmus test and reflection of our prejudices: do we incline to favor the class of people who (if something really was happening) would be the victims, or those who would be the perpetrators? Which potential injustice offends us more: a little girl continuing to be molested because we were too careful, or a man falling under false accusations because we were too aggressive? And what does that say about our deepest attitudes toward men and women, adults and children? How do we cope with the knowledge that neither form of error is completely avoidable?


Wow!


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

I think the instinct men have to give growing girls their space, especially non-bio-related girls, is a good one. Like it or not, men who do not display this instinct invite suspicion on themselves.
I have mixed feelings on this...on the one hand, i totally agree with you...i would think most men would kind of be aware of what society deems appropriate, and wouldnt want to veer TOO far from that in public...maybe your teen daughter lays in your lap at home, and its totally innocent and fine...but probably not a good idea to do that at the beach yknow?

OTOH, i distinctly remember being a child, and one day it wasnt ok to sit in my father's lap...i was probably 8 at the time, though i dont remember exactly. And he made a big deal once, when he took a friend and me to the park, of saying "Those people were looking at me like i was a child molestor!!" (in reality, since he was an "older" father, they probably just thought he was grandpa)...i remember feeling weird about that, like, why was he so focused on that? Why did his mind go, so instantly, *there*, yknow? But he wasnt in general a loving and well adjusted person, so i'm sure my negative feelings growing up had other sources as well. But it DID seem weird and negative to me at the time.

Katherine


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
I think the principle extends, analogously, to the abstract level of arguments like this about what our attitudes should be. At this point, I think we're talking more general philosophy of the matter than the actual guy at the OP's block party. Given the element of unknowability, guesswork, and judgment calls in cases like this, it's more of a litmus test and reflection of our prejudices: do we incline to favor the class of people who (if something really was happening) would be the victims, or those who would be the perpetrators? Which potential injustice offends us more: a little girl continuing to be molested because we were too careful, or a man falling under false accusations because we were too aggressive? And what does that say about our deepest attitudes toward men and women, adults and children? How do we cope with the knowledge that neither form of error is completely avoidable?

I think this was a very strong post.

I can think of a lot of grey area between "molester" and "perfectly innocent" here. Just one example is that he might have a disorder/difference that means that he isn't as aware of physical boundaries (my father, who never, ever touched me inappropriately, had a head injury and started hugging everyone because his inhibitions had been lowered by the injury and he had to relearn them.)

Even so, if someone is concerned, I think they should take the action they feel is appropriate. If CPS type services don't have a way to deal with complaints in a respectful, legitimate way, that's a huge social problem. It may be that in some areas that means the person calling has to make a different judgment call than in some areas where CPS is more subtle. But it doesn't really remove the need for someone to make that decision, whichever way that person goes.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

> How do we cope with the knowledge that neither form of error is completely avoidable?
> 
> 
> > We do the only thing we can do, which is be the best people we can be. In every situation if life there are numerous choices to make, situations differ in extremity of course, but the "action" of the situation is the same. Make a decision and stand behind it.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

This weekend should be a good time to get to know them.

EVERYBODY else left together today to go on a motorcycle ride to Mexico. Out of 20 homes, that leave four homes occupied for the weekend.

We figured we'd try inviting them over.


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## DianaCA (Nov 17, 2007)

Trust your instincts queenjane


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
This weekend should be a good time to get to know them.

EVERYBODY else left together today to go on a motorcycle ride to Mexico. Out of 20 homes, that leave four homes occupied for the weekend.

We figured we'd try inviting them over.

I applaud you for attempting to get to know them a little better.







Be careful, don't leave your children alone with them or the daughter just in case, and be mindful and watchful.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

Good for you Next! I'll be there with you in spirit!


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## angieluvsramon (Nov 9, 2006)

It really bother's me to think how fast some people are to call cps to report something like tapping a toddlers hand for touching something they are not supposed to, yet so many of you are telling her not to trust her instinct on a child being *SEXUALLY ASSAULTED!* In a situation like this I would have reported it immediatly. I have worked in childcare for 8 years and have reported to cps on 2 ocations based soly on instinct, and in both cases my instinct was right. In one case It was a 3 year old little girl who's stepfather was doing the most terrible things you could ever imagine. In the other case it was a 6 year old little girl. Now with me being a victim of molestation on several occasions would much rather call cps and be wrong than not call and be right. The effects of this happening to a child is alot worse than being wrong and having someone only investigated for this. Please if you feel something in your gut than report it!


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
Which potential injustice offends us more: a little girl continuing to be molested because we were too careful, or a man falling under false accusations because we were too aggressive? And what does that say about our deepest attitudes toward men and women, adults and children?











Spot on.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Wow.

He's a complete nut!

His step dd was at her dad's for the weekend. He called her on her cell phone to see if she was having a nice time. She'd only been gone a few hours.

Then he said "Did you know my Landlord rented us a house with fire damage?" (you need background for this)

_The neighbor lady directly to my East is the ex wife of the man who rented them this house. They have kids together, and her oldest son is 15. They were with us when this new neighbor made the comment about the fire damage. But, the new neighbor would have no reason to know that my neighbor is the landlords ex wife. So, the neighbor lady and the son were all interested in the "fire damage"_

He took us down to see the "fire damage" and sure enough, the kitchen has recently had a fire in it. Not a huge fire, but obvious damage.

When we left K**** and her son said "That was not there two weeks ago, when we cleaned it for the new renters". They called The homeowner right away to tell him about this.

Then later, I took the wife to the community center to see the workout facility, and she confessed that SHE set the kitchen on fire, and he refuses to admit it, so the homeowner will have to pay for the damages.

He walked into my house without being invited. He told my husband that he had gone bald, and found a cure for baldness on the radio. He ordered the stuff, and it worked beautifully (neighbor has full head of hair, DH is bald) But, he can't remember the name of the miracle cure.

His wife was so drunk by 9:00 p.m, that she was openly mocking him.

He talked about the daughter like she was the most fantastic and beautiful child ever to be put on this earth, even as he insulted ALL the other children that were sitting with us.

OY!


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## angieluvsramon (Nov 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Wow.

He's a complete nut!

His step dd was at her dad's for the weekend. He called her on her cell phone to see if she was having a nice time. She'd only been gone a few hours.

Then he said "Did you know my Landlord rented us a house with fire damage?" (you need background for this)

_The neighbor lady directly to my East is the ex wife of the man who rented them this house. They have kids together, and her oldest son is 15. They were with us when this new neighbor made the comment about the fire damage. But, the new neighbor would have no reason to know that my neighbor is the landlords ex wife. So, the neighbor lady and the son were all interested in the "fire damage"_

He took us down to see the "fire damage" and sure enough, the kitchen has recently had a fire in it. Not a huge fire, but obvious damage.

When we left K**** and her son said "That was not there two weeks ago, when we cleaned it for the new renters". They called The homeowner right away to tell him about this.

Then later, I took the wife to the community center to see the workout facility, and she confessed that SHE set the kitchen on fire, and he refuses to admit it, so the homeowner will have to pay for the damages.

He walked into my house without being invited. He told my husband that he had gone bald, and found a cure for baldness on the radio. He ordered the stuff, and it worked beautifully (neighbor has full head of hair, DH is bald) But, he can't remember the name of the miracle cure.

His wife was so drunk by 9:00 p.m, that she was openly mocking him.

He talked about the daughter like she was the most fantastic and beautiful child ever to be put on this earth, even as he insulted ALL the other children that were sitting with us.

OY!

I feel sorry for the little girl. It sounds like the mom isnt too bright herself! Have you found out anything as far as the school goes?


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

His over affection / attachment to stepdaughter is still concerning sounding to me.

In the original visit, did he have his hands on her when they were seated? I'm also trying to get visuals of the contact.

But I think you should consider making your own phone calls in addition to the school activity, since you have no idea if the school activity has any relation to the stepdad or over friendly behavior, and if you're still getting that gut feel and a strong one, IMO it needs to be checked out.

I can understand the difficulty of living next to a creepy/crazy neighbor -- what a dilemma!


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
He walked into my house without being invited.

I'd start locking my doors. That's freaky. Even if it was innocent, that's really freaky. What is he, living in a tv show?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
He talked about the daughter like she was the most fantastic and beautiful child ever to be put on this earth, even as he insulted ALL the other children that were sitting with us.

Shouldn't he be in love with his *WIFE*, not his stepdaughter? I think my children are amazing, wonderful human beings, but I'm not gonna critisize everybody else's children to prove it.







:


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Wow.

He's a complete nut!

His step dd was at her dad's for the weekend. He called her on her cell phone to see if she was having a nice time. She'd only been gone a few hours.

Then he said "Did you know my Landlord rented us a house with fire damage?" (you need background for this)

_The neighbor lady directly to my East is the ex wife of the man who rented them this house. They have kids together, and her oldest son is 15. They were with us when this new neighbor made the comment about the fire damage. But, the new neighbor would have no reason to know that my neighbor is the landlords ex wife. So, the neighbor lady and the son were all interested in the "fire damage"_

He took us down to see the "fire damage" and sure enough, the kitchen has recently had a fire in it. Not a huge fire, but obvious damage.

When we left K**** and her son said "That was not there two weeks ago, when we cleaned it for the new renters". They called The homeowner right away to tell him about this.

Then later, I took the wife to the community center to see the workout facility, and she confessed that SHE set the kitchen on fire, and he refuses to admit it, so the homeowner will have to pay for the damages.

He walked into my house without being invited. He told my husband that he had gone bald, and found a cure for baldness on the radio. He ordered the stuff, and it worked beautifully (neighbor has full head of hair, DH is bald) But, he can't remember the name of the miracle cure.

His wife was so drunk by 9:00 p.m, that she was openly mocking him.

He talked about the daughter like she was the most fantastic and beautiful child ever to be put on this earth, even as he insulted ALL the other children that were sitting with us.

OY!

Well... kinda weird people, but unfortunately without the step daughter there.. doesn't seem like anything connected to her really. As for the phone call while she was gone..







I know a lot of parents that do that. Maybe she's just started visiting, or heck who knows..

From many of the things you've said it seems like he doesn't catch on to social cues very well. That could perhaps have much to do with it. The lying, inappropriate jokes, etc..

Oh and for the record, *angieluvsramon..* I don't advocate calling CPS for any of those other reasons you listed either.


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## angieluvsramon (Nov 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Well... kinda weird people, but unfortunately without the step daughter there.. doesn't seem like anything connected to her really. As for the phone call while she was gone..







I know a lot of parents that do that. Maybe she's just started visiting, or heck who knows..

From many of the things you've said it seems like he doesn't catch on to social cues very well. That could perhaps have much to do with it. The lying, inappropriate jokes, etc..

Oh and for the record, *angieluvsramon..* I don't advocate calling CPS for any of those other reasons you listed either.









I am on the gd forum right now and they are having a discussion about this. I guess someone called cps because a mother smacked her daughters HAND







: I cant believe this!!!! some people are so fast to do this.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

From the additional info, I'd be more inclined to guess that the guy is simply weird/oblivious to social norms than he is a molester.

I don't think it's weird to call the step-daughter after a few hours into her visit with her dad . . . there could be some back story there, she may not have wanted to go, etc. I also don't think walking in without waiting for the door to be answered is that strange -- at least for us -- lots of our neighbors and friends do it. And mom getting drunk early? Her kid was away for the weekend and it was her night off -- not going to judge her for that.

But yeah, sounds like a guy who is just not in tune with social norms.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
Shouldn't he be in love with his *WIFE*, not his stepdaughter? :

OMG! That's IT. That is what it feels like. It seems like he has a marriage with a kid, and not with his wife. She seems oblivious to it.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
And mom getting drunk early? Her kid was away for the weekend and it was her night off -- not going to judge her for that.
.

No, sadly, that didn't bother me. LOL.

I was a bit put off by the way she spoke to him though. Even if *I* hate the guy, it isn't appropriate to insult him like that in front of others. She wasn't at all nice to him. It is the type of behaviour you save for your own home behind closed doors.

Other than that, I actually really like her.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
No, sadly, that didn't bother me. LOL.

I was a bit put off by the way she spoke to him though. Even if *I* hate the guy, it isn't appropriate to insult him like that in front of others. She wasn't at all nice to him. It is the type of behaviour you save for your own home behind closed doors.

Other than that, I actually really like her.

Are you SURE it wasn't joking? Others would and have thought that DP and I were being cruel to one another at various times, but that's just how we joke around. We sound serious, but we're not.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

ugh, just read through the thread. the OP totally freaks me out & sets off warning bells. I'm so glad you're working towards some sort of relationship with this family- the family dynamic sounds very, um, off. I so hope nothing is happening to this child







:


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## Oceanjones (Mar 11, 2007)

I just found this thread today and read through *most* of it...especially the OP's updates.

I agree with a lot of people that she is basing her concern on more than just a *feeling* He's obviously made others uncomfortable with his behaviour so there has to be more to it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
legally innocent yes, but even an investigation would make him suspected and the recipient of uncomfortable stares
who do you think will invite the 'suspected child abuser' to the next barbecue? or let their kid have a sleepover at him house?

I don't understand how an investigation would taint his reputation forever unless he plans to go barking around town about it. Otherwise no one would even know unless something comes to fruition from the investigation.

I also read a comment about how the OP could read a child as being uncomfortable without knowing her. The same way we all read emotions. That's why there are smileys depicting certain expressions and posters with faces and the emotions to match. People can be pretty easy to read whether you know them well or not.

I hope for the little girl's sake that they are just a bit high drama and maybe a little weird but I'd flip if someone touched my daughter like that. Husband or not, bio dad or not....a child's boundaries need to be respected without her having to beg for it.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Are you SURE it wasn't joking? Others would and have thought that DP and I were being cruel to one another at various times, but that's just how we joke around. We sound serious, but we're not.

No. I am the most sarcastic and dry person I know. But, this was disrespect. We weren't a full block away when she told me that she set the kitchen in fire "but Dumba$$ wants to make the owner think he set it on fire". Which I agree with. What a stupid idea, since the owner would need to claim it on his insurance anyway. But, even if I think my husband is the worst person on earth on any given day... I would never disrespect him in front of others.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
No. I am the most sarcastic and dry person I know. But, this was disrespect. We weren't a full block away when she told me that she set the kitchen in fire "but Dumba$$ wants to make the owner think he set it on fire". Which I agree with. What a stupid idea, since the owner would need to claim it on his insurance anyway. But, even if I think my husband is the worst person on earth on any given day... I would never disrespect him in front of others.

Eh, either would I.. but I've known many people who have no problems "telling it like it is" to others. Just a different way of being I suppose.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
No. I am the most sarcastic and dry person I know. But, this was disrespect. We weren't a full block away when she told me that she set the kitchen in fire "but Dumba$$ wants to make the owner think he set it on fire". Which I agree with. What a stupid idea, since the owner would need to claim it on his insurance anyway. But, even if I think my husband is the worst person on earth on any given day... I would never disrespect him in front of others.

Gotcha.

And agreed, it is a stupid thing to do.


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