# Have you ever put your kid(s) in daycare?



## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

.


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## bluey (Apr 28, 2004)

I did. I wasn't happy about it at all, cried the whole first day back at work. I had a year long mat leave and started dreading going back to work almost as soon as she was born. I did manage to find someone to job share with so I only worked 2 days one week and 3 the next, and I worked the latest shift possible at that job (12-8) so she was in daycare from 11-4 when dh picked her up. That went on for 4 looooooong months. Then my job was downsized and I was offered either a severance package or to be sent to another job. I took the money and ran. I did get another job soon after (working a couple nights a week and only after dh is home ) because we needed the money. I am trying to work at home now so I can leave that one too.

I had no idea I would react this way, I always assumed I would go back to work f/t. I suppose because everyone else I knew at the time did. After she was born things changed..for the better I think. Dh was the same way, he never thought about how sending our child to be cared for by someone else would make him feel.


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## rwikene (Jun 10, 2002)

I'm having a hard time understanding your definition of "daycare" do you mean like a daycare center or in-home daycare with a bunch of other kids.......OR a babysitter?

I would leave DD with a babysitter if needed, in fact I hope to be able to go out with DH sometime soon and leave her with some friends.

As for a daycare center, I would if I had to. I'd rather find other options first, but I'm not so dead set against it that I think it is evil of all evils.

Also, I'm going back to work part time very soon. I'll work in the evenings, DH will be home to watch DD. I personally have no issue with this at all. Trust me, this is not b/c we want to have some big fancy house, or nice car(s). In fact, we have only one car, its an older car but runs. DH brings home just enough money to cover bills every month with little extra. We have to pay off debt, and would love to set up some savings. Not every 2 woh parent families do it to have nice fancy houses, nice cars and tons of extras....some do it b/c they HAVE to!


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Yes, I did. I hate thinking that I have to explain myself..but I will.

I stayed home with ds until he was 6 months old. At that time, we had exhausted our savings and it was clear that we couldn't make it on dh's income. Dh was currently looking for a better job. Sooo, he quit his job, stayed home with ds and I went back to work as a 2nd grade teacher.

I went back on a Monday. Tuesday, a job got a call back to an employer that he had gone on several interviews but had never heard anything back. My mom took a day off from her job and came and watched ds. They offered him a job, but dh turned it down when he saw the salary as it wasn't enough for me to stay home on. He told them this straight out and the reasonings. he felt strongly that one of us was staying with ds. THey called back on Thursday and offered him more money, enough for me to stay home!!!! Yipeee!! They wanted him to start right away, but he started in 2 weeks.

BUT, I had just gone back, and his insurance wouldn't kick in until his 60 days. So, I stayed on until his insurance kicked in, asked for leave of absence in 2 months, apologized to my class and parents ( which was really hard because they had a sub teacher BEFORE I came back, then had me for 2 months, and then had another teacher. I felt bad, but my family came first, and most parents understood and wished me well), and put ds in daycare for the 2 months.

It was the hardest thing for me. FIrst off, he decided not to take a bottle of ebm from the DCP ( who was sooo good and was within 5min. walking distance from my school). He would nurse at 6 am, and wouldn't take a bottle until 12:30 pm!!!!! I was pumping 20+ ounces a day, and he would only take around 6 while I was gone!!! But he survived and is just fine!!!

It was also a learning experience because I now know firsthand how working moms feel. It's heartwrenching, no matter what the circumstances.

He has never been in daycare since then and he is 2 1/2 and we have no plans to.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm a single mom. My kid was in childcare part time starting at age 2. The first semester (I was a student) it was 3 hours a week, and I was able to increase it slowly (I took a lot of classes via distance learning). She was in fulltime childcare for one semester, when I was student teaching (she was 4 1/2 when I started), and then for three months when I started working, the following March through June. Some was centers, some was at home, we had great experiences with both and not so great experiences with both.

I guess she was in fulltime childcare the next year, too, except that it was called "school" so most people look at it differently.

Dar


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

rwikene: I understand a lot of people do it because they have to and not because of the luxuries. I feel badly for those people who HAVE to do it, I really do.

Personally we really struggle to make it work, we pinch every penny and have 2 beat up used cars with over 100k miles on them. We rent and probably won't own anything for quite a while. But it's well worth not going on huge vacations or driving a sports car like we used to before we had kids. I'm not complaining at all. I am going back to school so I can homeschool our dd when the time comes and also so I can start my own in home daycare. I know that probably sounds contradictory since I kind of sound anti-daycare but I need a way to make extra money and sah with my daughter at the same time. That way we can save for college and such. I know there are a lot of single parents and married couples out there who don't want to leave their kids in a daycare and I hope I can give them a place that they can feel secure in doing so. I know I would be worried sick if I had to leave my dd. I mean there's so many concerns when it comes to doing that.

To clear up my question I really meant a babysitter or a daycare on a regular basis, either part-time or full-time. Personally I would feel safer with a daycare because there's usually at least 2 care provider's and if one is losing their temper the other can take over and they're going to be watching each other so abuse is a lot less likely to happen. If I had to put my dd in child care I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving her at home with just one person. I guess I'm paranoid. But with the daycare thing they constantly get sick so that is one bad thing. Then again there's the socialization factor, my dd loves playing with other kids so that would be good.

Okay I'm just rambling now







Carry on...


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I checked that I plan on it. I'm not sure when, but I am going to have to go back to work, and I won't have a choice. I'd like to put it off for as long as possible.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I never did put mine in. I worked at daycares often though.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working? ........... to me my career is my family.

I really, really hope you did not mean this the way that it sounds.

Is it really SO WRONG to have other things than mothering feel fulfilling to a woman? I'm multifaceted, myself. I love, love, LOVE being a mother, but for me, I need other activity, too. I also love my work, and feel that it in turn makes me a better mother and a wonderful role model to my son.

To answer the OP< so far, I've managed to balance my shifts with DH's schedule, and also utilize my (mostly!) wonderful Mother and MIL.

I have lately checked out a day-care program, but we're holdiing off for now-- because we can. Many, many women do not have that option. In the future, though, maybe when DS is 2, we may start trying it 6-10 hours per week. He loves to social aspect already, and I think would be fine. It's ME with the issues.


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## calmom (Aug 11, 2002)

I have never used childcare but if I could find just the right person for about 10 hours a week who would just play with my kids nonstop, I would do it in a heartbeat! I'm so stressed!


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## Quillen (Jul 6, 2004)

When DH and I got our house, etc... we planned it to where I could stay home. I enjoy being a SAHM and don't like being seperate from dd too often. I think it is very important to get Mommy time, but I often get that during a play group, church, a RS (LDS Woman) activity, etc. Its not that I won't ever leave her, I just don't feel like I need to. With baby number two coming, I have a friend who is sure she is going to need a bunch of help and is planning on who can come stay with her when. I think its all of what your used to and what you can do on a personal level.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:

I'm multifaceted, myself. I love, love, LOVE being a mother, but for me, I need other activity, too.
I'm multifaceted too, I have many other interests, I can find other activities without going to work or putting my child in daycare.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

Good for you Rebekah.

Now please quit judging women who might {gasp} choose something different and implying that they are any less of a mama.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I'm multifaceted too, I have many other interests, I can find other activities without going to work or putting my child in daycare.


Wow.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

I'm just surprised that for an AP board there are so many moms who put their kids in daycare.

But whatever


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

You know, I'm not really sure what the purpose of this thread is. Are you just wanting to be snarky, or are you really trying to get a better understanding of why some moms use daycare?

If it's the latter, then please try to be a little more open-minded.


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## dr.j (May 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
You know, I'm not really sure what the purpose of this thread is. Are you just wanting to be snarky, or are you really trying to get a better understanding of why some moms use daycare?

If it's the latter, then please try to be a little more open-minded.

ITA. I've never put DS in daycare, but I know a lot of really amazing moms who put do.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm a mom who does not work outside the home. I have had my daughter in a Mother's Day Out program before. And I've considered enrolling her in a Kindergarten here, but will hold off on that until we're feeling more settled here, if we do it at all.
And I used the childcare at the Y every day. I would still be doing that if there was a gym here that offered it.


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

I wnt back to work when my youngest (at the time) was 4. I
_HAD_ to because DH and I were seperating and there was no way to make it otherwise.

I was fortunate at the time to have a college aged cousin and then my grandmother come to my home to get the kids off to school for me, watch them when they weren't in school, etc. People I could trust.

Since then, DH and I have reconciled, had a surprise pregnancy and here I am again. I don't miss my job...I miss a few people...but I don't miss my job.


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

The purpose was just to see how an AP board compares to other regular parenting boards I've posted on. I would have thought on an AP board there would be more SAHM's


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I am a single mama. When I left their dad I had to work full-time, so they were in daycare. They had never been before. They were in daycare for about 4 months, and then I found a WAH opportunity through the company that I WOH with. Then, since I had so much more free time, I was able to tinker with eBay and such and was able to start up a sling business. I only sell slings for money right now. I'm totally poor, but I'm home, and with my kids. I felt that being a SAHM was so important that I am willing to give up being rich (hahahahah yea, not in this lifetime!) for being the prime caretaker, rolemodel etc for my kids.

So I am a single work at home mom. It is really hard/scarey sometimes, especially with sales cause I never know what will happen.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Thread number 805,963 in the Mommy Wars.

I have a career that is very important to me. I enjoy it a great deal and get personal and professional satisfaction from it, and I think it is a job that makes the world a better place. I have no desire to be a SAHM, and I would not be good at it. I love my children every bit as much as you love yours. My kids are thriving, "despite" having been in daycare.

As far as finances go, we could probably survive on my dh's income as a high school teacher. But we would have a drastically lower standard of living. We don't live in a big house, but we do live in a modest house in a good, solid neighborhood in an excellent school system. Were we to try to live on dh's income we would need to move into a tiny apartment in a dangerous school district. I am not now, nor would I ever be a homeschooler. We currently are able to save for our children's college education (enough hopefully to send them to state schools with no debt) and for our own retirements. If I didn't work we would not be able to save a penny.

If you want to be a SAHM, more power to you. I do not. I look back on my own parents and my childhood, and the biggest gift my parents gave me was sending me to college such that I did not have to start out on my own mired in debt. It is not that my mother was a SAHM (she was). I am also old enough now that many of my friends are having to support their parents who failed miserably to save for their own retirements. I see what a burden that is and I'm not going to voluntarily do that to my own children.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

My kids have been in part-time childcare for various periods of time. Now the oldest is in school, & my youngest is at kindy 3 days per week. I did not have to go back to work/school, I chose to. You can draw whatever conclusions you like from that.


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I'm multifaceted too, I have many other interests, I can find other activities without going to work or putting my child in daycare.

I NEED to go back to college to follow my dream. My dream is rehabilitating wildlife. I am empty w/out my dream. Mothering is wonderful, but I am beginning to feel stale. Sometimes being a mother is not going to be fulfilling to some mothers. I am one of those mothers. However, I have held off as long as I could, and either this summer or this fall I will be putting my kids on on-site daycare. I am confident that it will be a positive experiance for all of us. It will only be a couple hours a day, a few days a week to start. I know whats best for me and my kids, and living my dream is what will make me a happier mama, and a better mama. It sucks to think that there are other moms out there who think they are better then me, or look down on me, and judge me, because I crave outside experiances.


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## nimamom (Mar 15, 2002)

I was home with my DD 100% of the time until she was 1 yo. Then I went back to school, for 8 hours a week, when my DH would keep her. When she was 18 months I added working 8 hours a week to the 8 hours I was already in school. When she was 2 1/2 I upped my school hours to 9 credit hours, and I took DD to preschool on campus for those 12 hours. Now, my DD is 4 1/2 and she goes to a Waldorf preschool 16 hours a week, when I work.

I don't know what this makes me. What I have always felt is that I'm pretty much a stay at home mom... but I also am a better mom when I do something outside of the home too, whether that is work or school. I am fortunate that DH and I were able to juggle life in such a way that I was able to stay home with DD as much as I did. But, I have many friends who work and are fabulous attached parents to their little ones!!!


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## kerc (May 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
The purpose was just to see how an AP board compares to other regular parenting boards I've posted on. I would have thought on an AP board there would be more SAHM's


I suspect there are a large number of sahms. I also suspect there are a large number of people, like myself, who feel passionately about what they do. That's WAHMs, SAHMs, WOHMs. The working mamas get banged around all the time here. There's no real reason for it. We all care about our kids and are devoted to them and since we're here at MDC we all try to be AP. Please remember that martha sears is a wohm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DestinysMama
To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working? ........... to me my career is my family.
great that your career is your family. but not everyone puts their kids into daycare so that they can buy new cars and a huge house. Feeling a bit argumentative this morning, otherwise I'd just ignore your post. But...my dd was an unplanned baby. I was in my second year of a phd program. If i left, I'd have to start over (if I could get in someplace). I never planned on having kids before my late 30s and was financially and emotionally unprepared for kids. I have always dreamed of being a working woman. So dd is in daycare. In a very loving place, with someone who basically treats her like her own daughter.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

I'm a SAHM, who wishes I would have worked part-time. I quit my job as a RN to stay at home with dd. I had only worked for 7m as I got pg right after school (not planned). Being a mother was a hard adjustment and after the 1st yr would have liked to get a part-time job, but wouldn't make any $ if I had to pay for daycare.
Since dd was 6m I've taken dd to the YMCA so I could work-out with DH. When dd was 2.5yr I put her in a 3hr/2day/week Mother's Morning Out. More for dd but also gave me a little break. DH works super long hours and never would take care of dd and I needed a break. When dd turned 3yr we started the Parent's Night Out at the YMCA that is twice a month/4hrs in the evening so DH and I can have our Date Night. This Sept. dd school is now 4.5hrs/2days/week.
All in all, yes I do let other people watch my dd. I have now family close by and friends that are busy/working/have enough of their own to help watch mine.
My dd has really blossomed from all these experiences.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

When I was a single mom I HAD to. Needed money for food. I did manage to make it as little as possible though. My husband was my boyfriend and he shifted his work schedule so my son was in day care for only 1-3 hours a day.

When I had to go back to work in OCT because my husband was on strike my mil took care of the kids.

I breastfeed my children 27 months (he went to day care), 4.25 years, 30 months (or so).

My kids still co-sleep when they want.

My kids are homeschooled. Which is a struggle when you have to work full time.

I have cut down working to 2 days a week. I wanted to quit but these 2 days affords us a few extra's. Like being able to buy son exactly what he wanted for his birthday.

I think it is sad that you think day care automaticly equals less of the parent. Yes, there are people that are self centered that put their kids in day care but that should not be an automatic assumption.


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## Fleurette (Feb 28, 2003)

"I love being a sahm and wouldn't have it any other way. To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working? I never really wanted a big career I guess so I just don't get it, to me my career is my family."

Um...well, can I just say as a fulltime WOHM, I DON'T do it because it necessarily affords me a bigger house or car but I HAVE TO OR MY HOUSE IS GONE! Honestly, this type of comment always makes me scream in anger.







Do you really think ALL wohm work because they want bigger and better? Some may, but please, please, please don't lump us in with all the others because some of us who are married still need to work in order to have the necessities. It would be nice if we could move to a less expensive area, but around where I live, it honestly doesn't exist.

Please, don't judge. I use daycare fulltime and I'm proud of what I do to keep my kids in a safe, wonderful neighborhood with parks and great kids to play with instead of living with a stressed out mother and father who can't pay the bills and lose their home.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

I love my jobs as a mom and as a WOHM. We just bought a house, which is not big, or fancy, but it was the right thing for us to do. DD's health has improved (we lived near a dusty recycling plant, which caused lots of running noses and sinus infections), and we're able to save for the future. We could not afford to pay our mortgage, put healthy food on our table, and keep gas in our old crappy cars, put money in a college savings for dd if I didn't work.

Because we like to, because we have to, and because it's really not anyone else's business or concern of what works for *our* families. I pass no judgement on SAHM, more power to you that it worked for you. So don't try to "understand" why an AP mom would WOH, just don't judge. Understand this--my choices may not work in your family and vice versa.

I've always felt that AP practices really make the lives of busy working parents much more manageable than more "mainstream" practices. I hope this sheds some light on how some of us WOH and AP.

I marked that I put my child in full time day care. We eased dd into full time care at 3 months. It was on the campus where I work, I could bf on my lunch break, they were AP friendly, and she was loved and cared for by wonderful people. I missed her every minute we were apart, but I knew she was in safe place, and I could walk over and see her anytime I wanted. We'll do the same thing with our next baby. I don't regret it for a second. I would rather not have to pay someone to care for my child, sure! I'd rather take her to work with me, but I haven't found a work environment that I enjoy where I could do that. BTW, I breastfed DD until she self weaned 2 months shy of her 5th birthday (will do the same with dc#2), and she co-sleeps with us whenever she wishes. I CD'd for several months (til it stopped "working" for us), and plan to CD dc#2 and make it work...I'll stop with the credentials. I hope you get the picture.

DestinysMama, my question to you is why is it hard to understand that we do what's best for our families, even when other people don't think it's best? Has this type of vocal criticism and scrutiny deterred a homeschooling, co-sleeping, or non-vaxing family? I suppose it sometimes does, and frequently strengthens a family's resolve that they are doing the right thing.


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

EFMom- I love you














2 You have most aptly illustrated how I feel.

I see little direct corrolation between being "AP" and being an exclusively SAHM. Yes, many SAHM are AP (as illustrated by the wonderful SAHM mothers here), but many are not. Many WOHM are AP (as illustrated by the wonderful WOHM mothers here), and many are not. One does not HAVE to be a SAHM to BE AP, nor does being WOHM automatically kick out of the AP "club".

Me? Yes, my children have spent varying amounts of time in OTH childcare. We have tried to limit it as much as possible and have succeeded, except for a 6 month period, in keeping it down to PT (2-3 days per week), but the majority of the time DH and I have both been working OTH and have relied on center daycare and a wonderful AP preschool, on at least a part-time basis. DS#1 is in school now, so he technically is in OTH care FT. DS#2 goes to preschool/childcare 3 days per week and cannot wait to get there in the morning.

I have also taken a stab at being a SAHM and found myself depressed, bored and desperately lonely. It hasn't worked for me. DH works in retail and barely covers the bills when he is working FT...it all makes for a very unhappy family. So, currently I work FT, he works PT and we live comfortably, though certainly not extravegently. That I work doesn't mean I don't love my children and don't miss them when I am not present. It does mean that I spend every waking moment I am with them being focussed and attentive to their needs, and I personally think they get more "bang for their buck" that way. I respect and admire women (and men) who are able to make SAHP work. They are giving their child a unique gift. But so are the many WOHP...the gifts just may be different. But no less important or "AP".


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## Bellasmom (Mar 13, 2004)

Why do I work outside the home?
Because my husband's job (part-time) does not have insurance. I think that to allow my family to be uninsured would be negligent.
Because I have a wonderful husband who works part-time so that he can stay home with dd every morning.
Because my husband's degree (bio-medical illustration) is very specialized, and there are not any full time jobs for him available in our area at this time.
Because I have a wonderful boss who lets me pump as much as I need to, work flexible hours, take dd to playgroups in the middle of the day, and understands that my family comes first.
Because it would be nearly impossible for me to find a part-time research job, because experiments sometimes take several hours or several days.
Because I am doing what is best _for my family._
We are fortunate to have a wonderful daycare provider whom my dd loves very much, flexible schedules, and flexible goals. If I could be a SAHM right now, I would be. I intend to be someday. But is a matter of weighing all of the important things for your whole family in lots of different areas and doing what is best for the moment.

Angela


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Why does so much of Attachment Parenting literature (Sears and API come immediately to mind) emphasize that part of Attachment Parenting is avoiding prolonged mother-child seperation, especially when the child is under three?

If it isn't part of Attachment Parenting to have the mother-baby relationship protected against seperation, then why do the majority (if not all) of these AP authors include it in APing? Are they misinformed/wrong?

Honest questions.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Wouldn't it be so great to live in a world (as the OP apparently does) where everything is so simple: black or white, this or that? To think my life is complicated by so many shades of gray. I should probably get rid of them as soon as possible so that I can go around thinking that every thought I have is 100% correct.

The conflation of "daycare" to encompass any kind of situation and any reason whatsoever where mom specifically is not within eyesight of her children is bizarre, disingenuous and misleading at best, mean spirited, disrespectful and inflammatory at worse. Why only four choices on the poll?

I've had my son in daycare full-time, part-time, an au pair (who taught him Portuguese!), with a relative, in pre-school, and now with me full time (I am also my family's sole financial support). Life shifts and changes and we've had to shift and change with it. Does it make a difference how I felt about the situation? If I had a job I loved and was good at, then I'm bad? But if I "cried my eyes out every day" then it's o.k. because I felt really, really awful about leaving my son? What if I was secure in the knowledge that in my absence his care was superlative? At any given moment I knew my son was in excellent hands - I never left him in any situation I was ever unsure of and that's all anyone really needs to know.

I'd like to know the OPs checklist for appropriate maternal behaviour: nursing (check), slinging (check), cosleeping (check), delayed or no vax (check), homeschooling (check), with the kids every breathing moment (uh...).

So, do I fail some kind of OP motherhood exam? No matter - I'm a great mom, my kids are happy and healthy and every now and again they get to charm someone else with how cool they are while I attend to some adult business.

Anyone who thinks the last is a problem can quietly look the other way. There's nothing to see here.

What a piece of work.


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

Usually I just ignore threads that start out with this kind of tone. But somehow just felt like writing this time.

I HATE it when people get on these boards and make some holier-than-thou, contentious and argumentative statement, and then sit back and watch.

Mostly, I feel like if you are happy, TRULY happy, in your life, you don't feel the need to do this. You don't feel the need to come on these boards and state why you love yourself so much and you just don't understand anyone who does it differently. If you are truly happy, you are generous with others. If you are truly happy and comfortable in your skin, you not only accept others, but welcome them and all you can learn from them (because everybody has something to teach). You don't put up barriers. You don't us-and-them everything.


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

I went back to work when my son was 8 weeks old. I had no choice at all--unless I wanted to live in a homeless shelter, that was the only way the rent would be paid. (I was still supporting my son's father, sort of hoping that he'd step up to the plate and at least contribute financially...I finally asked him to leave in June when my son was 9 months old.)

Eight weeks is just to soon for any mother to go back to work, especially a mother like me who wouldn't even consider giving her baby formula unless there truely was no other choice (e.g. I was on my deathbed). I was only just then adjusting to being a parent! I was just then really falling in love with my baby, as the shock wore off.

He's been in full-time family day care since that time. It broke my heart to leave him there the first day, but at the same time, I knew he'd be ok, because the DCP I found really loves the kids she cares for.

I knew when I met her, after having visited many other DCPs during my pregnancy, that my baby would be ok with her. I'd chosen someone else, and had thought, well, ok...she's competent...I'd tried to reassure myself. Then for some reason I saw Consuelo on another list, and went to see her. I saw the way she was with the two kids who were there at the time. I knew this was where I wanted my son to stay while I was at work. I felt so relieved.

And he *is* ok. He's more than ok--I truely believe that his life is enriched by being there. Consuelo's older teenagers are very involved with the kids, and help her. There are two other toddlers there full-time, and they're like brothers to my son. There are a few other kids who are there more occasionally. There's a new baby there now. My son loves it there--he's always happy to see me when I come to pick him up, but sometimes he doesn't want to leave. He loves Consuelo...he's attached to her, and she to him.

We co-sleep, he was a sling baby until very recently (he's a big boy!), I have no plans to wean him until he wants to. I am very attached to my son.

He is thriving. We have a roof over our heads. Things are very, very hard for me right now, but things could be so much worse, and I have much to be grateful for.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

This is a topic that has been addressed many times in this community.

Why do I work? Before I had my son, I spent many many years in school to do the thing that would make me happy. I have a very successful career and am an expert in my field as is attested by the positions within my professional organizations I have held, the requests for speaking engagements that I receive, the invitations from organizations such as the NEH and the NHPRC which I receive regularly to make recommendations to funding worthy projects to preserve history in this country. I am a professor. My student fully enjoy my classes and it provides great fulfillment to me to know that I am helping to educate the next generation in my profession. I get the chance to share my expertise, my experience, and to excite students about the profession.

I am also a very fulfilled wife and mother. My family is my first life always. In order for us to have the life we have. Working makes that possible. I feel that I would be cheating my family if I did not work. We have had opportunities and will continue to have these because of what I do. We get invitations to exciting events because of my involvements. We travel because of my involvements.

My son has been in a daycare situation since he was 9 weeks old. Did I go into this lightly? Not all. I was devastated to put him there. It hurt everyday. How could someone take care of him as well as I could? Would he eat? He nurses constantly, how will they ever get him to have a bottle? Will they respond to him as well as I do? For the first month my head spun. But, he did fine. He is now in pre-school, and I see that this experience has been good for him. He is a thriving creative force.

I wouldn't have changed a thing.

I am sorry that others feel they need to criticize and look sideways at those of us who have made different choices. Everyone makes the choices they feel are best for their families. It would be nice if everyone can respect the idea that even though we share similiar goals and ideals, we are all leading different lives. What works for me, probably won't work for you and vice versa.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I put mine in preschool twice a week when she was 4. A lot of people might consider that daycare. One of my friends always referred to it as such.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I am cutting alot of slack to the OP, because, well, I remember being a young attached sahm. I always thought "If we can do this, anyone can."

I didn't realize how priorities shift as you get older. When I was 24 it was ok that we weren't saving, that we were accumulating debt, that my degree was becoming useless and I was totally dependent on dh. It seemed like we had time to take care of all these things.

Now I am 31, with 2 kids, still dependent on dh. I've seen his salary almost quadruple since we first started out and yes, I am starting to feel really ready to have part of my life back, after 6 years as a sahm. Dd is 3 and I planned to wait until she started school to go back to work, but now I don't think I can wait that long.

I unabashedly voted no, but I plan to.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
Why does so much of Attachment Parenting literature (Sears and API come immediately to mind) emphasize that part of Attachment Parenting is avoiding prolonged mother-child seperation, especially when the child is under three?

If it isn't part of Attachment Parenting to have the mother-baby relationship protected against seperation, then why do the majority (if not all) of these AP authors include it in APing? Are they misinformed/wrong?

Honest questions.

Are we back on the AP Rules vs. Ideals trip?
Yes, it's a nice ideal. The thing is, Dr. Sears isn't going to pay for my mortgage, insurance, gas, electric water, groceries, retirement, my children's college education, car maintenence, or to have my eyebrows shaped at the day spa. The writers of these books aren't in my family and don't support us financially.
The people who write those books don't know me or my family, and while I appreciate the guidance these people provide, I don't take everything they say as gospel truth, or as an absolute way to conduct my life. Nor do I think the authors of AP books intend their advice to be followed to the letter. As you states, it's a *part* of AP, and there are lots of parts of AP. We pick and choose what works best for our families. If no one can get a good night sleep while co-sleeping, why would someone continue to do it? If a woman had a mastectomy before she had children and can't breastfeed....You see where I'm going with this.
I should add that dd was not in full time day care all the time. When an oppurtunity to work a great part time job came up, I took it, and we reduced dd's day care time. That worked for 4 years until we had to move out of our apartment, buy a house, and found we were expecting another child. Our situation changed, and so did we.

Our culture has no interest in protecting the mother-baby relationship either. But I think that's a whole nother thread.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

No, I'm not back on any trip.









If I see something consistent in the bulk of AP writings, then I will ask about it.

If there are no drawbacks other than mom feeling torn up, and possibly bottle refusing on the part of the baby why not put the child in childcare? I haven't read any negatives _for the child_ in this thread, as a result of maternal seperation.

So the warnings from AP authors are unfounded? That is my question.

Or are there drawbacks for the child?

If the whole lot of AP writers are lying through their teeth about maternal seperation, then everyone should hear about it. If truly there are no negatives to the child or to the mama-infant bond, when the child/baby is in childcare, even from an early age and for many hours a week, then people should hear that from AP literature.

It isn't fair to families to be warned against something that really isn't risky at all. I'm talking about good childcare, btw and from every post I've read here from moms who utilize childcare, their children 'LOVE' it and are the better for it. Which means that mama is hopefully better for it and the family, too.


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## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Sophie goes to the creche at Church every Sunday morning. She loves going to "church" cause to her it means she gets to play in the church playground, or the nursery classroom, for an hour..she just about throws herself through the door.

It makes me wonder, sometimes, if she would benefit from being in some kind of play group, but I know I am not ready to put her into day care.


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## crysmomofthree (Mar 18, 2004)

My children are in day care on average 2 days a week, I work a rotating schedule of 2 on four off, I have two older boys in school and my ds 14 months is in a loving family daycare. I couldn't be happier with my choice of childcare providers. I think the daycares you pick have a really strong influence on how your children adapt to the situation.
My older boys like daycare they get to play with friends and hang out at the park and do things that only older boys can do (something that is hard when you have a little baby brother around)
the baby is really happy at daycare I phone twice a day and childcare provider loves to gush about all the exciting things he has done that morning (like climb into the swing all by himself, or nursing a doll) I know she loves him and will protect him and educate him. That does not make it easier to leave him there though. When I come home at night it is a marathon nursing session and a tired out baby.

I had a year maternity leave and I was required to go back to my previous post. I am not planning on working after we have the next baby at least for a couple of years.

I think it is horrible that people actually think you are less of a parent if your kids are in childcare, Daycare serves a purpose for people who choose or are required to work for all sorts of reasons, I just wish that there were social programs in place around the world that provided for a modestly paid maternity leave for about six months, It is not fair that working parents have to leave their new babies so early. It would increase the success of breastfeeding rates immensely I believe
crystal


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I am doing the best for my family that I can, as a nurturer and as a provider, and I am proud of that.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancingmama*
If you are truly happy, you are generous with others.











I almost want put that in my sig as a reminder. What a beautiful and true statement.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:

Mostly, I feel like if you are happy, TRULY happy, in your life, you don't feel the need to do this. You don't feel the need to come on these boards and state why you love yourself so much and you just don't understand anyone who does it differently. If you are truly happy, you are generous with others. If you are truly happy and comfortable in your skin, you not only accept others, but welcome them and all you can learn from them (because everybody has something to teach). You don't put up barriers. You don't us-and-them everything.
Sing it, dancingmama.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Nope never will. I made darn sure that I can do something to make good money and be the only one to care for my son. I choosed to have him, he is my responsiblity, he comes first before me before my DH.

My brother and sil refuse to take for they child. They put him in childcare until they have to pick him up. They both could easily work different schedules so one could watch at any time but they do not like being around their own kid.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
If it isn't part of Attachment Parenting to have the mother-baby relationship protected against seperation, then why do the majority (if not all) of these AP authors include it in APing? Are they misinformed/wrong?

Honest questions.

Well, what I always come back to is does it really matter if you use the AP description or not, as long as you are parenting in the best way you can? I try not to see AP vs. mainstream as good vs. bad, but that has been a prevalent notion ever since I've been involved in AP groups. I started participating in AP groups _not_ because I felt like I embraced the ideals of attachment parenting, but just because I wanted to meet other moms who breastfed and cloth diapered (and co-slept and used slings, I guess), and I knew there would be some both at LLL and AP groups. Along the way I feel like I embraced more of the ideals because they made sense to me. The biggest thing for me is loving attachment to your child. If you work, the child needs to have a loving bond with another caretaker. The things that I completely reject are the methods people use to train and separate their children from themselves that can be abusive. Spanking and sleep training involving CIO are just plain wrong to me and they aren't AP methods. And I say this having experience with both things, so I'm not pointing finger at other people.

Anyway, to answer your question, I believe that groups like API and LLL and some of the authors of attachment parenting literature promote the benefits of mothers staying at home with their infants based on attachment theory science as well as observations in nature. It just seems like we got so far away from loving attachment that we need a philosophy to say "Your baby needs you, you should stay home with your baby." Maybe it isn't possible or desirable for everyone, but promoting that idea is better for society in the long run. In other countries, mothers and fathers get to take more time off to be with their infants. The policymakers in those countries must see a benefit in it. My big bias is that I believe every baby who can be breastfed should be breastfed, and many workplaces don't support this idea. I see the lack of bonding time in the early months coupled with lack of support for breastfeeding mothers in many jobs as detrimental to our children.

When I worked in retail, I knew a mom who had a baby on Saturday and was back to work on Monday. Pumping wasn't even an option for her. At that point I wasn't a breastfeeding advocate, but even then it disturbed me that this mother was able to have so little time to recover from her birth and to bond with her child.

In every AP group I've been involved with, there has always been a mom who couldn't breastfeed or had to return to work after a few weeks. I have never considered them to be anything less than AP moms--I figured they were committed to the ideals of attachment parenting and forming a loving bond. There is a benefit for parents who have to be separated from their babies for long periods of time to use some of the things associated with the AP/NFL lifestyle, like slings or family bed. And at the same time I don't think that I, as a sahm, should become too complacent, because I've noticed this tendency in myself to shut down emotionally after awhile and I have to prod myself into remembering what I am doing and why I am doing it. For me, at least, if I let my children go to a loving caretaker once in awhile, it is a positive thing for both of us. Very often that loving, enthusiastic other caretaker is *not* my dh. LOL

I don't know, I hope I'm not being condescending. I got very little sleep last night.







I just am wary of this laundry list of things you do or don't do as AP and feeling like you are a good parent because you do certain things. I think it's understandable to feel proud that you had a homebirth, have never used a disposable diaper or that your baby has never had a drop of formula. But it seems so divisive when parents get caught up in this being the only acceptable way. And it works in many directions--I mean, I've seen mothers get very indignant about people who vaccinated or used disposable diapers or a babysitter, but those mothers might make choices that I haven't or don't want to make. I _try_ (I'm not perfect) to go dancingmama's route and not put up barriers.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
No, I'm not back on any trip.









If I see something consistent in the bulk of AP writings, then I will ask about it.

If there are no drawbacks other than mom feeling torn up, and possibly bottle refusing on the part of the baby why not put the child in childcare? I haven't read any negatives _for the child_ in this thread, as a result of maternal seperation.

So the warnings from AP authors are unfounded? That is my question.

Or are there drawbacks for the child?

If the whole lot of AP writers are lying through their teeth about maternal seperation, then everyone should hear about it. If truly there are no negatives to the child or to the mama-infant bond, when the child/baby is in childcare, even from an early age and for many hours a week, then people should hear that from AP literature.

It isn't fair to families to be warned against something that really isn't risky at all. I'm talking about good childcare, btw and from every post I've read here from moms who utilize childcare, their children 'LOVE' it and are the better for it. Which means that mama is hopefully better for it and the family, too.

Sorry Playdoh, I didn't mean to sound so b****y re: the trip. I had a flashabck from a previous thread that ended badly, which I don't even remember if you were involved in. I'm sorry. I'm dealing with the here and now, now.
I don't think the writers are lying about maternal-baby separation. I meant to say, in a less pissy way, that it just can't work for everyone.
Bad childcare is bad child care, and unfortunately good childcare seems to get lumped with the bad. This is where I disagree with the AP writers who badmouth all childcare. I am there for my child 24-7. We are not in constant view of each other, but if she needs me--even if she's just having a hard day and needs to be home--dh or I leave work. We have jobs where we can do that. My career and lifestyle choices have revolved around my family. It may not look like it to someone not in my situation, but whatever.
If my child was in a bad child care situation, where the caregiver did not respect and uphold my parenting beliefs, we'd seek alternatives.


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

I'm a SAHM and I can't wait for my children to go to school so that I can work. I hate, just realise this, being at home. I'm so bored. I need the interaction with other adults not just kids. I love the rush of deadline and customer services. My dds will both go to daycare for 1 day or so the yr before school. This way they get to know a dif environment and learn social behavior and such. For dd1 that by next yr and dd2 in about 2-3 yrs from now.

I'll probably get a p/t job one day but it won't help with finance and expenses.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

My 2 and a half year old went to daycare for 6 months 30 hrs a week. I covered my friend's maternity leave so that she could bond with her baby and not have to worry about her other kids (we worked at a children's hospital), since I knew the job from when I worked before having my son.

I don't regret it for a minute. She got to establish a good nursing relationship and successfully pumped when she returned to work. My son (and me) had some tearful drop-offs, but he had a great time with the other kids and loved it overall. He is now 4 and very attached and well-adjusted. And I learned that while I missed some aspects of my work while I was being a SAHM, the grass was not greener on the other side, and now I am more content in my SAHM role.

So I am mostly a SAHM. I was a WOHM for those six months and it did not affect my son's attachment in any way I could see. And it was hard. And so is being a SAHM.

Ugh, I hate this conversation. I love my WOHM friends, and they would love to have the opportunity to be home, if not full time, then definitely more than they are. I help them out and support them in any way I can. I am waiting to go back to work until my daughter is three (I hope). I am lucky to have that choice.

And.....I use some childcare even when I don't work, because neither of my children ever sleep during the day







:, and I can't get anything done otherwise. Sometimes I have to let the rest of the world experience the magic that is my children.









L.


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
I love being a sahm and wouldn't have it any other way. To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working? I never really wanted a big career I guess so I just don't get it, to me my career is my family. My heart breaks for the moms who would love to be sahm's though and just can't for financial reasons. I would probably cry my eyes out every day if I had to do it.

My dh and I both work full time and we do NOT have a huge house or new cars. We don't even have a car payment. Can't afford one. I also do not do it to feel fullfilled. I would be thrillled to be with my ds every minute of every day. Unfortunately I cannot. I try to make up for it after work and on the weekends by never leaving him. I have only left him twice, once so dh and I could go out and once to go to my 10 year class reunion. But I love his daycare and most importantly HE loves his daycare. He is happy to go there everyday and has even made his first little best friend.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I am not quite sure where to start -- there is so much I want to cover and I'm so angry I'm not sure I can do any of it without sounding like a true b****.

First, my 2 kids are in part-time daycare. And they have been since they were tiny infants (in fact, my daughter was only 5 weeks old when I went back to work). I have never once cried about it. I've been sad and frustrated on occassion, but never enough to cry about it or regret my decisions. If that gets my AP parenting credentials revoked, so be it. If half of you think I'm the next worst parent to the Pearls, so be that too.

I know I shouldn't feel defensive because I am doing the best for everyone concerned (in balance and considering the entire family, not just the kids). But I do.

Why do I do this?
1. Because I love what I do at work and I think it contributes to the greater good.
2. Because I would probably badly abuse or kill my kids if I were a 24/7 SAHM. There may be disadvantages for the kids with daycare/preschool. But they are nothing compared to the problems they would face if they were with me all the time. I was not cut out to be a SAHM. At least I am honest about it and recognize my own limits. Still though, I'm a darn good mom with the situation as it is now. I can be patient, kind, caring, attentive, gentle, a good role model, all those things -- but not 24/7.
3. We could get by with just my husband's salary, but why should we? We don't live extravagent lives, but we do live in one of the most expensive places in the country. What I get from living here I wouldn't be willing to give up just so I could stay home but live someplace that I disliked (and I've lived in lots of other places, so I know what it would be like elsewhere). Life would be miserable for the entire family without my income and I don't think its worth the sacrafice. And as an older mom (I'm already 41 and my youngest isn't even 2 yet), I can't afford to wait before worrying about retirement and life after the kids are gone. I have to face the fact that college and retirement are going to happen at the same time for me.
4. It is not possible for everyone to work odd shifts to avoid daycare. My husband is an attorney -- courts are on a pretty set schedule. I work for the church, and the office hours are pretty set here too. I don't want to take just any job for money, I want to do what is meaningful to me.

It is all about balance. Yes, there may be some disadvantages to the kids to be separated from me so young. But that doesn't mean that the best solution *for the entire family* is for me to stay home all the time at all costs. I found the best possible solution for my family and I'm really happy with it. All families are different, what works for some does not work for others. I believe very strongly that the parents here have spent a great deal of time, thought, prayer or whatever helps you make good decisions, about what their lives should look like. The "why would you ever do that?" question is insulting to intelligent, caring parents who have thought through the issues involved and made the right decision for their family and their circumstances.


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## Misti (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
T I would have thought on an AP board there would be more SAHM's

As a working Mamma who has done the SAHM thing, I can tell you that AP is even more valuable to us working away Mammas, whatever the reason we work. After all, if you're always there, presumably bonding comes pretty easy. When you have to be apart 10 hours a day, every waking moment counts.

And I am a much better Mamma this time because I have more energy for my little guy when we're together. I was stressed, exhausted, and in way over my head as a SAHM.


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Misti*
When you have to be apart 10 hours a day, every waking moment counts.

Even the sleeping moments, for me.


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

I have been a SAHM and I have put my kids in daycare full time. I totally prefer SAHM. In my family no one benifits from me being out of the home.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Yes with my first two I was a single mother and had to work so I had them in daycare after the age of 6 months. It sucked and I hated having to do it but had to.

With my youngest I work 3 days a week and DH is home with him on those days (he's a firefighter and works 2 24 hour shifts every eight days so his schedule accomodates that). I work those three days because DH can not afford to make our mortgage payment on his salary alone - it's not for extras it's to keep our home. We are actually in the process of selling our home and downsizing to a smaller house with a lower mortgage payment so that I can become a SAHM. I can't wait - it's always been my dream to be able to stay home with my kids. I feel really bad for the women that have to work to pay the bills because I've BTDT and it's heartbreaking.


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

I seem to remember Dr. Sears saying some of the most attached mothers he has worked with worked out of the home (paraphrasing here - sorry Dr. Sears) and AP becomes even more important as some others have posted here.

Anyhow everyone's situation is different and only we can make the best choices for our familes, whether that is day care or not day care, WOHM, SAHM, WAHM, SAHD, WAHD, WOHD...whatever acronym you like, it does not make us better or worse than anyone else who makes different choices. But learning to interact with other adults and children can be a valuable thing in any case.

What about those attached fathers who work all those hours!?

For the record I am a WAHM and have my own business I don't use a daycare.


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

If I hadn't been a WOHM I probably wouldn't be AP in a weird way. I would have just gone with the flow of the local mothers group and not tried so hard tomake up for my working which I wanted to do in the end. So I read and researched and happily found the baby book and the longer I am a mother the more AP I get.
ANd right now DD1 still goes to "daycare" parttime because it is her preschool and her social life and it makes me a better mommy with more patience if I have some time with only the baby.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

I work, and during the summers I am a SAHM. I work because we need the money, and until recently because we needed the insurance, and because I am driven on a spiritual level to do what I do. You don't get to decide whether I really "need" to work -- I get to decide that. My family has two cars because my DH and I work 1.5 hours away from each other and can't share (otherwise we would), and there is no public transport that comes out here. We have one car that is several years old, and the other is one I have been driving since high school (and I'm nearly 30 years old). So I'm not working for new cars. We don't have a huge house either, though we do own a house. I feel we "need" that for a variety of reasons, all of which relate to our son's needs in some way. So I don't fit your mold.

What I do outside the home is very, very, very valuable -- not just to me but to society as a whole. It is, most days, very frustrating and not very fulfilling, but I am driven to do it because I am very good at it and it is very important. Trust me, being home would be easier, and it's not as if I'm getting any "glory" from my career -- if anything, in general society it causes me to be looked down upon. I don't feel a need to have some big career either -- never have. Instead, I feel a need -- a calling, as much as anything else -- to serve society and children in the way I do. I could be doing something else, for a lot more money and glory and the "big career." So again, I don't fit your mold.

I'm lucky that my calling puts me in a very family-friendly profession and I have never, ever, ever left my child while he was crying. I exclusively bf for six months, pumped for a year, and am still bf'ing and cosleeping. My child has spent 5 nights in his life not touching me while he slept, and for three of them I was in the hospital. My child is the most attached child I know, and also the most independent and social child I know at his age.

But you know what? I don't really want to claim the AP label, so it doesn't bother me that since I don't SAH full-time I fail the AP test. I didn't set out to be an AP parent. I set out, every day, without fail, to do the best thing for my son.

So far, it's working, regardless of what you call it.

And my son is in a traditional daycare center.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

*Destinye* says at the bottom of page 3 of this thread,

Quote:

I seem to remember Dr. Sears saying some of the most attached mothers he has worked with worked out of the home (paraphrasing here - sorry Dr. Sears) and AP becomes even more important as some others have posted here.
I think *Destinye* may be referring to Dr.Sears's comments such as:

Quote:

Put your baby to sleep in your bed or in a crib right next to your bed. This allows you to reconnect at night and make up for the day's missed touch time. If babies could talk, I'm sure this would be one of their first requests. In fact, in our practice we prepare working mothers to expect their baby to wake up more at night because they missed mommy during the day. Sleeping close together will help you get more sleep, and still allows some extra contact for your baby.
(from his 1/15/04 column at http://www.parenting.com/parenting/e...4,9521,00.html)

In the same column Dr. Sears adds his personal history:

Quote:

While I was still a young infant, my mother was a single mom and needed to return to work. My caregivers were my grandparents. To this day, I still remember my mother doing the best she could in less-than-ideal circumstances. As a parent, you can't plan for every circumstance. Just do the best you can and make the most of those precious hours you have together.
Seems like Dr. Sears turned out okay in "daycare," and must really admire his single mom's parenting skills, as he's making parenting his life's work.


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## Indigo73 (Aug 2, 2002)

As a WOHM I could get defensive at the tone of most of this thread. But all I will say is I do what is BEST for my family.

If that means ds spends 45 hours a week with his sitter then that is what needs to happen. That in no way makes me any less AP than anyone who has ever wandered through the MDC forums.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

The one thing that I keep thinking about as I read this thread is how screwed up America is..... Hear me out.

In other cultures the *Village* actually raises the child. Many mothers will nurse many children, children know they can go to any adult when they need something.

Daycare is our countries version of Village, and I see good and bad points to it. The good points is that I think it is good for many adults to raise children, the bad points is the manner in which the system is set up. Having to exchange money, making sure to find the *right* provider, providers that can turn out to be really, really bad for our kids, government involvment and many more things.

But in essesence, this is the way that the village raises the children and while I choose to stay at home with my kids, I don't feel bad about leaving my kids with someone else if I feel like it.


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## Indigomama (Dec 26, 2001)

I have worked full time since ds was a year by choice.

Partly for financial... not bigger or better things... but the idea that we could save for retirement while owning a house. Partly for enjoyment. Partly to retain a sense of freedom.

My son has been in a day care the entire time. There has been some drawbacks but a lot of positives as well.

I dont' think that it has interfered with my relationship with my son in anyway. AP philosophies have been a big part of that.

I have never regretted going back to work once and i say that with my 4 yr old son in my arms nursing and cuddling. I get home every day and he is my world.


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## lilgreen (Dec 5, 2003)

Just had to pipe in and give my 2 cents...

DH is in university full-time. We have already maxed out our student loans and I have had to start paying mine back. We are poor. We are very poor. So, I need to work and ds needs to go to daycare.

It's that simple.

lilgreen


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
*Destinye* says at the bottom of page 3 of this thread,

I think *Destinye* may be referring to Dr.Sears's comments such as:

(from his 1/15/04 column at http://www.parenting.com/parenting/e...4,9521,00.html)

In the same column Dr. Sears adds his personal history:

Seems like Dr. Sears turned out okay in "daycare," and must really admire his single mom's parenting skills, as he's making parenting his life's work.

Thanks - could'nt have put it better myself! Furthermore Dr. Sears and his wife raised 8 kids (I believe) and managed to have more than 2 very successful careers between them, writing all the books and also being an MD (and a nurse in his wife's case) and I am sure he would still call himself a very attached parent.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working?

New cars? Huge house?









Let me tell you something. When I met my dh I was a single mother. After we married, I still worked full time. Not for a new car or a fancy house, or even for fulfillment. I worked because we couldn't get by on his pay. Here's why....

My first child was an "oops." He was conceived on the pill, while I was in the Navy. I got pregnant two months after finishing boot camp, and I had a six-year obligation to the government. So my choices were to give up my kid, have an abortion, or keep my child and continue working. What would you do?

When I met my dh (who is also in the Navy), he had just bought a new car. Payments last five years, typically. His was over $300 a month, and this was back in '93. He was an E-2 when we married. Do you have any idea how little an E-2 makes? I was an E-3. Not much better.

I had some pretty high legal bills from my divorce. My ex-husband hid from me and it took a lot of time and $$$ to locate him, and then more time and $$$ to get rid of the jerk because he contested the divorce. I never got any child support, either. My husband petitioned to adopt my son after we'd been married about two years. Guess what? The b*****d ex contested that, too. More legal bills.

I was finally able to work only part-time when my oldest was six and the youngest was three. We don't go on fancy vacations or expensive dinners. We never have. We've been married ten years and have never been on a vacation together; not even a honeymoon. We don't have any expensive habits like cigarettes or alcohol. We've been homeschooling our kids for five years, and for 2.5 of those years, I still worked 30/hrs week. You might be happy pinching every penny, but some of us like a cushion to fall back on. I want to be able to take my kids to activities, to buy them decent books, and to feed them quality food. Participating in sports and such costs money, too. All of our family lives far away from us. It's nice to be able to visit them once or twice a year. We've had four family members die in the past six years. Traveling to funerals costs money, too. I have three cats. I don't want to feed them the cheapest garbage food they sell at Mall*Wart. If one of them is sick, I want to be able to afford veterinary care. If we have car trouble, it's nice to be able to fix it. If these things are considered "luxuries," then I guess we're guilty of being indulgent. Maybe we should just eat beans and rice every night for dinner and never leave the house.

Your notions that all dual-income families are living high on the hog is incredibly off the mark. Your child is only 18 months old and her needs are fairly easily met. Babies really don't cost a lot of money. Babies don't care about what their clothes look like. Babies don't want bikes or scooters or skateboards. Babies don't want to play soccer or basketball or hockey, nor do they want to take swimming lessons or gymnastics.

I'm beginning to think I don't want to spend time on these boards anymore. The only other boards I've ever encountered this sort of judgemental attitude is on religious forums. I've only been here a short while and this isn't the first time I've seen this sort of thing. It seems like hard-core APers tend to have a holier-than-thou disdain for those not like them.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Thought I'd chip in my 2 cents -

I am a SAHM. DH is a teacher so that should tip you off to how little he makes. We are not "happy pinching every penny", as someone else described it. It would be great to have more money, we are barely scraping by and it's kind of stressful at times. But we do it because we are both committed to me being a SAHM.

I am a little tired of the stereotype of SAHMs as one dimensional Susie Homemakers happily clipping coupons. Just as I am sure WOHMs are tired of the stereotype of themselves as heartless materialists, paying someone else to raise their kids.

Here is what I find ironic - that it's OK to say that you made a "choice" to work for personal reasons, but if someone were to say they made a "choice" not to breastfeed for the same reasons, they would be flamed to a crisp. Just something to think about.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
Here is what I find ironic - that it's OK to say that you made a "choice" to work for personal reasons, but if someone were to say they made a "choice" not to breastfeed for the same reasons, they would be flamed to a crisp. Just something to think about.

Well, breastfeeding is best for just about every baby (with rare exeptions for certain medical conditions). IMO, childcare isn't nearly so black and white, especially for children past infancy. Throughout most of human history, care of young children has been shared within a family or tribal group. The paradigm of a woman single-handedly caring for her children for most of the day (untill Daddy comes home) is a relatively new one.

Rain really loved certain childcare situations when she was little. Right after her second birthday, she started going one morning a week to a childcare center, and she looked forward to it every single time, and had a great time there. By the time she was 3 or 4 I think it would have been optimal, for her, if I could have dropped her off at childcare 2 or 3 afternoons a week. She went to a great center on-campus then, with high adult-child ratios, a world of cool things to do, and the kids were pretty much free to do the things that interested them. Unfortuately, most job and school schedules aren't set up on a drop-in basis, and some days or weeks Rain really would have preferred to stay home... but all in all, she remembers that center fondly.

Dar


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

DestinysMama, let me ask you this; Do you ever, in your life, have need for professional contact, say with a homeopath, a naturalist, a doctor, a doula, a midwife, a lactation consultant? Do any of those professionals ever happen to be women? Can you imagine one of those trusted individuals with whom you interact on this professional basis not being available to you because they decided to be SAHMs? Can you imagine not ever coming into contact with any female professional with whom you jived and felt understood because we were all at home tending to our children instead of out there mixing with the world and society at large? Because to me, that's what you're implying. Aren't you, in effect, saying that women shouldn't work once they've _chosen_ to bring a child into the world? Think of all the really good women working in our world, many of whom are also good mothers, that would be left out of society. Then where would we be?

And while I'm on the subject of choosing, why is it that women are the only ones making these choices to have children and raise them? What happened to the other partner in the union? There are often two parents at the outset. Not always, but often and it seems to me that in choosing to procreate, they should be held in obligation to continue to partake in the raising of them.

Also, keep in mind that the United States lags the most in terms of caring for children as a whole society. Throughout Europe families receive child allowances, helping the parents together to care for their children, pay their bills or childcare or whatever, allowing both parents to take an active role in the raising of the children. I can't imagine this not being a good thing...you know, to have one parent caring for you unreservedly is great, why not more than one?

The United States is the only country that has absolutely no entitlement to paid time off after the birth of a child. And now that we've gotten rid of welfare, many women have no choice but to work and put their children in harm's way during the day with substandard daycare. I can't quite figure out how that's good.

It seems to me that if we valued the work that women do in all areas of our lives--and put an actual financial value on the raising of children, we would have less warring regarding SAHM/WOHM/WAHM etc. It's not about whether I work and you don't. It's not even about whether I put my child in daycare or not. It's about me valuing the work you do and you valuing the work I do. Obviously I work. I work eight hours four times a week. I work two hours before that making breakfast and lunch for my two kids, myself and my dh, getting my kids up and out of bed, dressed combed and cute as buttons to increase their protection factor while they're out of my hands and decrease their vulnerability to abuse. I work several hours after I come home playing with my kids, seeing to dinner, baths and bed. I certainly am still the primary caregiver even though I've entrusted carefully chosen people to assist me during the eight hours I'm at work. I know you do these things too. That's why you and I are actually more alike than you think we're different. I love my children so much I'm blind to all other things. Don't ever question that again.

See my signature, you know how I voted. I'm probably one of the luckiest working women in America though. I work 158 days out of the year (a little math will tell you that I'm actually home with my kids more often than I'm at work) and I'm paid quite handsomely to do that. Since you haven't been in my shoes, but I'm in yours a little more than half of my life, I think I have a better sense of how much work it takes to stay at home with kids (tons) and to work out of the home with kids (tons). The argument that I somehow don't care as much about my own because I work is ridiculously false and yet it continues to be put forward, and has it ever occurred to you that the males who run our country want it that way? This way, if your dh decides to divorce you, you're screwed. Terribly. You won't have welfare to help you continue to stay at home (and I mean this sincerely not snarkily, because I think our government absolutely should support mothers to stay at home with their wee ones) and particularly if your dh goes on to marry again and have a second set of children, you can be sure your standard of living will drop dramatically--but it will even if he doesn't remarry. All because you've stayed at home to care for your children, probably the single greatest responsibility any human undertakes. But we live in a country where women who are doing this are making one of the riskiest choices there is to make and that's wrong. It should just be a given that all women get a paid year off to stay home with their kids, and then have additional time off to raise them until they can enter school, as in Sweden where they can then work 80% without punishment until their children are eight years old--the men and the women. But it's not a given, and instead, raising children is purported to be only because of the love we feel for them. We're contributing to society by raising thinking individuals folks! Let's not downplay that and risk losing everything by point our fingers at each other! Instead, let's figure out a way to value the work that mothers do by making our partners do it too and evening the playing field a bit more!

I support your decision. Think about it a little bit more and learn to support mine even if it's not the one you'd make. Try reading The Price of Motherhood by Ann Crittenden. It'll open your eyes. You'll also see that my arguments aren't unique or original. They're the way things are.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Great post, LiamnEmma.

I just want to clarify - I don't think I was clear in my previous post. I am comparing women who enroll their 6 month old baby in daycare to go back to work full time because they are "unfulfilled" to women who stop breastfeeeding at 6 months because they "want their body back". Both these viewpoints are selfish, IMO. I do not think this is the same thing as someone who enrolls their 2 or 3 year old in a childcare program once or twice a week.

Personally, I do think that it is good for young babies to be with their mothers in the same way that it is good for them to be breastfed. While I agree that it is unnatural for mothers to have to care for their young children alone, I think it is just as unnatural for them to be separated from their mothers for 8 or 9 hours a day. I know this sounds like a slam on mothers of little babies who *have* to work and I don't mean it to be. It is certainly possible to find a good childcare provider and "make the best of a bad situation", as Sears says. But I do think that mothers (or fathers) should make every effort to SAH with their children until they are 2 or 3 years old. JMO.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

LiamnEmma.

I loved everything about your post, especially this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LiamnEmma*
And while I'm on the subject of choosing, why is it that women are the only ones making these choices to have children and raise them? What happened to the other partner in the union? There are often two parents at the outset. Not always, but often and it seems to me that in choosing to procreate, they should be held in obligation to continue to partake in the raising of them.

It's attachment PARENTING, not just attachment MOTHERING. (sorry for shouting, this just gets me







)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*

I love being a sahm and wouldn't have it any other way. To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house?


Oh, ya' gotta love the stereotypes.









Dh and I both drive a 1980 car. Our house was built in 1935 (and it's definitely not huge.) Although I do like teaching, it's not the only reason I work. It's a tough economy, and sometimes it really does take two incomes just to get by! But dh has a variable schedule, so ds is only in daycare two or three days a week.

We managed to keep him out of daycare the first year of his life with the help of MIL. And I pumped that first year, so ds was fully breastfed (never had any formula.) And dh wore ds in the sling, ds never had to CIO, we left ds intact, etc. It is possible to WOH and AP, to the best of your ability.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

PS. As my dh said recently, "Our society expects good teachers. But are all of them supposed to be spinsters?"


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And one more PS. -- I do get the summers off with my children, and I love being a SAHM then.

My best friend is a SAHM, as well. I'm really glad it works for her. I don't "get" the "Mommy wars" where we have to judge each other.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

Originally Posted by DestinysMama
_Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working?_

I just wanted to add this point. I am a SAHM because my husband and I wanted one parent to be at home 24/7 with our child. Since he has a job that he likes and the job has the potential for growth, he opted to stay at his job. And, I quit the job I hated and stay home with my son (who is now a toddler).

But, for goodness sake, we are barely barely BARELY making ends meet. We economize at every turn. We have no extra expenses beyond our groceries and our fixed expenses. We have had no vacations, nothing. For groceries, I am as the frugal shopper - our bills are cut as low as we can get them. Our fixed expenses (like our insurance, hydro, gas, property taxes) keep getting higher. We have savings but they dwindle when we have a property tax bill or something large like our car needs new brakes. My husband does not earn enough money to carry the 3 of us - it's that simple. A friend suggested I read Tightwad Gazette, so I did and I thought the book was no help at all as I already do the things the book's author suggests. We are very very frugal and yet it just doesn't seem to be enough. Please don't assume that everyone who has two parents working does so because they want luxury cars and homes - some people do need extra money to cover their living expenses. Not every person's income is high enough to cover living expenses for 1,2,3 or more people. And, for instance, our cost of living in our province and our provincial income tax system maybe very very different from someone else's.


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## Copper (May 4, 2004)

I have never put my dd in daycare. I had 3 month maternity leave and went back to work part-time with flexible hours ONLY when my dh was home. I worked in the evening, 2 evenigs one week and 3 the next and 5 hours on a Sat.(every 5th Sat.) basically I job shared with someone for a few months and then ended up quitting. I have been a sahm since then and would not have it any other way. I was at my other job for like 7 years and had great insurance and all but we got relocated due to dh's job. This is much easier I think; instead of tag-teaming and he comes home, I leave it is a lot less stress. I do not plan on putting her in daycare.


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
Great post, LiamnEmma.

I am comparing women who enroll their 6 month old baby in daycare to go back to work full time because they are "unfulfilled" to women who stop breastfeeeding at 6 months because they "want their body back". Both these viewpoints are selfish, IMO. .


I am going to make one attempt to reach out to you famousmockngbrd, and those who think as you do. If I do not succeed, I am giving up, as I fear these mommy-wars cannot be won. It's so sad.

If you stay home with your kids because you love it and it makes you fulfilled and you feel it is for the greater good, is that not inherently as "selfish" as combining working and mothering because you love it and it makes you fulfilled and you feel it is for the greater good?

For the record, I work 2.5 days per week, and have since dd was 3 months old. But I hope to speak also for women who work full-time. My work is important. It is important in the world, and directly affects people's lives. I have worked very hard to become quite good at what I do, and that MATTERS to a lot of folks -- namely, my patients. So.... what if your sweet little babies grow up to suffer chronic daily debilitating headaches? Or what if one is severely injured in an auto accident, and suffers pain and impairments permanently? Would you not be SOOOOO happy that I, or someone just like me, decided to keep working and contributing our important skills to people other than (and in addition to) our children? Because you know what? Just because we are women, and just because we have children, does not mean we are not needed in other ways, in other realms. And I assure you, the women I know that work full time have worked HARD to be sure their babes are in great situations, and they are VERY bonded with their kids, and they are great moms. And they feel that their work is important. To society. To other people (read: other people's children, because everyone is somebodies child!). To their own families in the income and resources they provide. To their children in the role model they present. To themselves.

There is plenty of research that suggests that having children and babies bond with many adults is a GOOD thing (check out the research on the Israeli kibbutz's). Enough to reassure these women that our choices are not BAD for our children. So my suggestion is, be happy with your choices. And be happy that not everyone makes the same choices you do. Because diversity is BEST for this country and this world and this society.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I never said women should not go back to work at all, ever. I do think it is best for BABIES to bond with one primary caregiver, and I think that person should ideally be one of the parents. I understand that this is not always possible, for a variety of reasons.

And no, I don't think it is selfish to enjoy caring for your baby.

I don't like where this is going - I do not want to contribute to feelings of ill will between mothers. I feel that what I am saying is not being understood and I'm afraid that by continuing to talk about it I am throwing up walls so I'm just going to leave it at that.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

My first child was in full time day care. I worked full time.

I have been blessed with a hard working husband who happens to make enough money for me to stay at home with both our kids now. I love it. It's what I wish for every child.

However- if I've learned anything from hanging out at parenting forums for 5 years now, it's that you*can*never*know*the*complete*story behind a mother's choice to put her child in day care.

Quote:

I love being a sahm and wouldn't have it any other way. To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working? I never really wanted a big career I guess so I just don't get it, to me my career is my family. My heart breaks for the moms who would love to be sahm's though and just can't for financial reasons. I would probably cry my eyes out every day if I had to do it.
DestinysMama, be confident and proud of your own choice to keep your kids out of day care. But this topic, and what it boils down to is sahm vs. working moms, invariably leads to hurt feelings. And what is the point? Is it to save some child from some time in day care, or is it to vent righteous feelings of snarkiness? What is your motive?


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Oh, and Cloverlove, your post #40 stated really well a sentiment I just couldn't put into words. Thank you!

I'm 36 y.o., dh is in similar circumstances and I cannot wait to go back to school. Fortunately, ds starts 1st grade next year...


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## CortLong (Jun 4, 2003)

Never have, never will.

When I was in college, Morgan either stayed with dh or my mom and now that I'm a SAHM I hope I'll never have to leave again.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

If you stay home with your kids because you love it and it makes you fulfilled and you feel it is for the greater good, is that not inherently as "selfish" as combining working and mothering because you love it and it makes you fulfilled and you feel it is for the greater good?
Just answering for myself here. Yes, your logic is correct. The emotions behind the decisions are the same.

But it's different if you compare staying home with your child because it is what's best for your child, despite not wanting to stay home, despite the fact that your satisfying career will wither, compared to putting your child in daycare so you can enjoy your career.

Dang, I wasn't going to do that. Really! Honestly, mamas, we need to support each other here.

And to the mama who said she was thinking of leaving mdc because there are just so many ap mothers who seem to be judging with religious fervor, I think if you count the number of responses that are clearly coming down on the side against daycare, you will find that is the small minority.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom*
But it's different if you compare staying home with your child because it is what's best for your child, despite not wanting to stay home, despite the fact that your satisfying career will wither, compared to putting your child in daycare so you can enjoy your career.

Dang, I wasn't going to do that. Really! Honestly, mamas, we need to support each other here.



This is what I was trying to say. And I sort of regret even bringing it up, too. What it boils down to is honestly examining your choices and the motives behind them, and if you can still sleep at night, then it's all good.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Hey DestinysMama, IF you are still reading this thread, here's a tip for you: When you start up your in-home daycare, don't treat the WOHMs who come to you with judgement, pity, and disrespect. believe it or not, that is actually something i do NOT look for in a child care provider. i find that i can get plenty of judgement, pity, and disrespect for free.








:

i don't know why i'm bothering to post, this debate is not going to go anywhere. but this just makes me so furious.

right now i have a babysitter come to my house 12 hrs per week while i'm in class. this leaves me no time to actually study and do my work - if i could afford 20 hrs per week i would do it. when i finish school, i will have to work FT and ds will be in daycare FT - like he was during my internship this past summer - and that's all there is to it. if you are willing to pay off my student loans, pay my rent and bills, and buy my food, then we can embark on a philosophical discussion about fulfiillment vs materialism and all that crap. if not, don't even start w/ me.

my sitter has a 3 yr old son. when she was pregnant w/ him she worked as a cleaning lady. she worked up until the moment she went into labor. the day after giving birth, she put her baby in the stroller and took him to work w/ her. if she had been able to afford child care i'm sure she would have, but instead she took him to work every single day for the next year. tell me, how does she fit into your analysis?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CortLong*
Never have, never will.

wow, cortlong, when were you blessed with the gift of foresight? i sincerely hope that you are right, and that you will always be so fortunate. but like my mama says, never say never.

oh, and whoever asked about the *fathers*








i don't have a dh/dp, but if i did, the issue would be 100% on the table. those of you who are anti-daycare, why yell at the moms for working outside the home? why not yell at the dads for not staying home? 2 very good friends of mine will be having a baby any day now. she will be going back to work after 2 mo; he will be staying home indefinitely. her work is both more financially reliable and more personally rewarding; it makes perfect sense. if he continued to work as well, his income probably wouldn't cover child care costs. and i really commend his courage in being able to buck the stereotypes and societal pressures. hmmm... i think i wandered OT.








sorry


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

I heard about this thread on the Working Mamas forum, and came looking for it. (Uh-oh, does that make me a troll?) I really try not to get into the mommy wars, but can't help myself here.

No, we don't use day care right now, b/c dh is a SAHD. He has been since dd was 13 months. I make more money than he did (despite his PhD) b/c he wants to be a writer. So he's home, writing when he can, and I have the benefits.

I'm more AP than any of the SAHMs I know. (So there!







)

And I don't say that to be competitive at all. But working has forced me to be AP--much more than I otherwise would be. And I know that I'm setting a good example for dd--not that you HAVE to work just b/c you have an education, etc. But DH & I are showing her, by our examples, that you can do what you love professionally and be successful (or moderately so) at it, and at the same time do what you love in your personal life--and not go totally














trying to balance the two sides. AND you can do both and maintain a loving, supportive relationship w/ your life partner, while s/he also does what he loves.

It's not always easy, but it IS possible.

Oh, and daycare? We may get to the point where dd goes part time--not b/c of a WOH job for dh, but he may get to the point where he NEEDS to have 3-4 hours/day to himself to get writing done. So no, we don't use it & I'm glad we don't (having one more thing to do in the mornings would quickly send me over the edge) but it hasn't been ruled out.

I'm rambling, and I have things to do.


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
Here is what I find ironic - that it's OK to say that you made a "choice" to work for personal reasons, but if someone were to say they made a "choice" not to breastfeed for the same reasons, they would be flamed to a crisp. Just something to think about.

Personally I don't think those women should be flamed either. I am assuming that they made an informed choice and while not the choice i made, it is theirs to make and not mine to critisize. By the same token it is not somebody elses place to critisize my cosleeping, BFing, working or not... Maybe if we spend less time flaming others the feeling truly would be one of a village where all mothers are supported.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nuggetsmom*
Personally I don't think those women should be flamed either. I am assuming that they made an informed choice and while not the choice i made, it is theirs to make and not mine to critisize. By the same token it is not somebody elses place to critisize my cosleeping, BFing, working or not... Maybe if we spend less time flaming others the feeling truly would be one of a village where all mothers are supported.


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

Everything said in post #86.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Speaking as a SAHM, I don't see anything that can come from this thread but animosity and hurt feelings.

I'm home with my kids because we would actually be losing money if I was still at my old job. I wasn't work that I loved, nor was it ever going to be. It was an hour from where I live. And I was feeling very passionate at the time about wanting to stay home. We figured we could manage it on one salary. I do seasonal work for my father (mostly on the computer), that I can do at home. It's not much, but it is a little. If the money at my old job was better, or it was work I loved, it would likely be a different story.

I would never pass judgement on a family that had both parents working, just the mother working, or single parents. We are all doing our best for our children. Playing the "I'm better than you because of X," does nothing productive.

AP is not about employment.

I just wanted to let all you WOH mamas know that not all SAHM feel this way.

Bec


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## Safemommy (Jul 22, 2002)

I don't have the time or desire to read this entire ridiculous thread - so I never got past the first page. So, forgive me if this has been pointed out already.

The OP really skewed the poll results the way she wrote it, so that it appears the majority of the AP'ers here are SAHM's. Well, if you add up the percentages of the full-timers, part-timers and planning tos -- they outweigh the SAHM's by 59.84% to 40.16% respectively. Even if you move the "planning tos" over to the "SAHM" side, the working moms still outweight the sahm's.

So, if this truly was an "experiment" to see if AP'ers CAN muster to put their child into daycare then YES, you can practice AP and put your child into daycare at the same time. Clearly it is quite common on this AP board.

Let's remember, AP is ATTACHMENT PARENTING in which moms attach with their babies by breastfeeding, slinging, co-sleeping, not CIO, gentle discipline, combined often times with Natural Parenting practices such as not vaxing, cloth diapering, organic feeding, etc. NO WHERE have I ever read that a requirement of an AP mom is staying home. Not even in Dr. Sears' books. They are NOT mutually exclusive.

So, if you want to debate SAHM kids vs. WOHM kids - you'll have to come up with something different than AP to back your theories.


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

I want to say that I enjoy this thread. I dont enjoy the SAHM vs WOHM war but as a Mama who feels she needs to go to work more to even get by, but does not want to leave my babies it has been interesteing to read.
I work very part time, out of the house maybe 5-6 hours per week. My DH works from home so he is here when I am not.
After DS1 was born I worked full time, although same set up. I make my own hours as does DH. I must say I love my job and yes I am needed in society.
However, I would do anything to not have to work at all. SO much happens in one day of my childrens development. I cant imagine missing soo much of it. And we are barely getting by. I am getting tired of bill collectors, tired of stresses about buying even food for the house. Financially I should be working a lot more.
It goes thru mind hourly about what I should do. But then when it comes down to accepting more hours I cant do it. I cant leave my babies. I cant have some one else raise my children full time. Recently a family member commented on not knowing something about her daughters level of reading. Her DD is in daycare full time and has been for all four years of her life. That just broke my heart.
Yes it can take a village to raise a child, but in those villages the Mama's are not gone all day every day.
I know that it is not always possibly to be at home with your children and yes I thank my midwives for being working mamas. That just doesnt work for me. And yes, there are times when I think some people could be home with their babies instead of sitting at a desk in corporate America.

What does get me mad (and if this is aimed at certain mama's out there I cant feel bad) is when a SAHM hires a nanny to help her out with her children . This gets to me because there are Mamas out there like me that would give anything to never have to work until our children are older.
Lets stick together Mamas. Hopefully we do feel that our individual choices are the right ones. If not time to change our choices.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I never said women should not go back to work at all, ever. I do think it is best for BABIES to bond with one primary caregiver, and I think that person should ideally be one of the parents. I understand that this is not always possible, for a variety of reasons.

Here's one of the problems with this sort of debate. You *think* babies should be bonded with a parent as primary caregiver. I think that yes, babies should be bonded with caregivers. But I haven't seen any good research that says a baby is only capable of bonding with one person (if this were so, my husband is going to be really surprised). Nor have I seen any good research that says that good, consistant, quality daycare interfers with bonding to parents or to other caregivers. Yes, there is lots of research on no bonding and failure to thrive, but its all in really wretched circumstances (orphanages and such). And if being gone for 8 hours a day meant baby didn't bond with that parent, babies in SAHM families would never bond with their fathers. And I doubt that's true for most of the SAHMs here. Therefore, my conclusion, based on research and on personal experience, is that good daycare doesn't interfer with my bonding to my children, or my husband's. It may even be good because my kids have more people they are bonded with in their lives.


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## mom2orionplus1 (Sep 17, 2004)

This may be beating a dead horse, but I'll go ahead and respond anyway. My son began part-time in-home daycare when he was 15 months old. He has flourished in so many ways. I see his social skills rising, he has come out of his shell and his motor skills have really taken off. He has such a great time there, and gets very excited whenever we pull up in the morning. However, we have many bonding experiences when I am at home with him (which is very often).

The thing is, before I went back to work, we were struggling and pinching every penny. I personally do not want to live like that. I want to be able to give my children everything they need without giving it a second thought. I like it that we own our own home in a good neighborhood and drive a nice car. I also do like getting out and going to work. Just as I enjoy my time with adults, my son enjoys his time with other children.

When our next baby comes, we will be cutting back the hours and she will attend approx. 12 hours per week, and then I will do more work at home. I am doing this mostly for the germ factor, as the other preschool and school aged kids come in the afternoons and I don't want unnecessary exposure to illness. I feel that we would bond no matter what.

I feel that each parent makes their own personal decision about what is best. Who am I to say that what I do is better than someone else or that I care about my child more or less than other moms?

All I can say is that I am satisfied with my decision to return to work and I feel that everyone is benefitting from it.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Why do I feel compelled to keep posting on this thread?







I have this urge to continue to explain myself, it's really becoming a problem.

I have a question - do you WOHMs feel like you have to work harder to maintain a bond with your DCs than you would if you were SAHMs? I have always thought that you do, but I could be wrong about this. My theory is that if you are a baby's _primary_ caregiver, a strong bond naturally develops. This is not to say that you cannot have a strong bond if you are not the baby's PG (like a WOH parent), but it takes more effort. This is why I think being a SAHM during the child's early years is the ideal situation. It's not a matter of bonded or not bonded, it's a matter of degree and ease.

And of course, babies can bond with more than one person. But I do think it is beneficial to their development to have one special person they can always rely on to take care of them. Let's not downplay the importance of Mama in our "it takes a village" zeal. And, you can absolutely be that person if you are a WOHM. It's just a lot harder.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

famousmockngbrd, may i suggest that if you are truly sincerely asking these questions out of curiousity and interest in the issues - and i think you are - that maybe you should start a new thread? cuz this thread is a bloody battlefield, people are feeling a wee bit defensive around here.

in answer to your question, however... this is my first child, so i can't really compare. because i am in school i am really part sahm and part wohm. when i was working ft over the summer, i did have to struggle to give him my full attention and focus during the time i was home. that was really, really hard (and important). it did make me feel sad and frustrated and tired, but i didn't feel that our bond suffered. it was only 3 months tho. as for my part time wohm-ing, no, i don't feel that i have to work "harder" to maintain the bond. thanks to ap, i feel confident that our bond is strong enough.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I have a question - do you WOHMs feel like you have to work harder to maintain a bond with your DCs than you would if you were SAHMs?

No, not really. I am a SAHM for most days of the year, and I don't find that it effects us either way.

Quote:

I have always thought that you do, but I could be wrong about this. My theory is that if you are a baby's _primary_ caregiver, a strong bond naturally develops.
That explains why I don't feel like I have to work harder, then, according to your theory -- I *am* my child's primary caregiver -- even though I WOH, and even though my husband is a very involved parent. For the majority of hours every day, and for the majority of the days of the year, I (with the cooperation of my husband) am my child's caregiver. Not only do I provide more of his care than any other person, I also provide the majority of his care. I think that makes me his primary caregiver.

That's not including the fact that I make all the decisions about his care, that's just sheer amount of the day-to-day care that I provide.

Quote:

But I do think it is beneficial to their development to have one special person they can always rely on to take care of them. Let's not downplay the importance of Mama in our "it takes a village" zeal. And, you can absolutely be that person if you are a WOHM. It's just a lot harder.
My husband would be a little insulted by this. My child can count on both of us, me and my DH, to take care of his needs -- always, no matter what. The only thing I can do that he can't is nurse, and nursing is far from the only need my child has.

I think that it's good that he has more than one person that he knows he can absolutely rely on to get his needs met.

So, in that sense, I just don't know that I agree with your premise that it's beneficial to have just one special person who they can rely on to take care of them -- because I think at the minimum they should have two.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just to explain my POV.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I have a question - do you WOHMs feel like you have to work harder to maintain a bond with your DCs than you would if you were SAHMs? I have always thought that you do, but I could be wrong about this. My theory is that if you are a baby's _primary_ caregiver, a strong bond naturally develops.

hehehe, hehehe, ask my DH about that. DD is definitely bonded to him, but he'll tell you that he's NO substitute for Mama.









My dd is amazingly bonded to me, always has been. I don't think I've had to work harder than SAHMs do. I *do* think that being WOH made me a bit stubborn about things like BF'ing--pumping for a yr., EBF, CD'ing, etc. just to show that it could be done--even WOH FT, even after having a reduction, etc. But I don't think of that as working hard to maintain a bond--I think of it as working hard to make sure that bf'ing didn't end early just b/c I was working. Now I have a happy, healthy 18 mo who tells me that nursing makes her happy, who's very free w/ hugs & kisses, is generous w/ other children, and who comes running up behind me when I'm making dinner, hugs my legs, and runs off again.

Yes, it makes me sad sometimes that I miss daily things like playgroups, etc. I'd love to be able to work pt, and someday hope to if dh's writing takes off. But this is what works for us right now, and for the most part it works fine.

Oh, and it's NOT about having a big house, 2 cars, fancy vacations, etc. It's about having our own home in a semi-decent neighborhood, w/in walking distance of playgrounds & parks, w/ neighbors that dd can play w/; having a car that doesn't break down every month; being able to buy organic food so that I don't worry about pesticides in her diet (not to mention in the environment); and visiting grandparents occasionally. (And saving for college & retirement, having health insurance, etc.)

Yes, a higher standard of living than most people in this country (let alone in the world), but not by any means extravagant. We get movies from the library, cancelled cable long ago, order pizza or Chinese once/week & that's pretty much it, etc.

I sound defensive, but I'm really not (generally). I do get annoyed at the implication by the OP that I somehow love my dd less than she loves hers, just b/c I work (and probably would pt even if I didn't have to). But I consider that more of an educational mission than anything else...


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## Safemommy (Jul 22, 2002)

I think there may be some confustion over the roles of a WOHM in her child's life. WOHM's don't just hand over her responsibility to anyone willing to take it, just to pick it back up at 5pm, feed it and put it to bed only to wake it the next morning and drop it back off again.

WOHM's love their children JUST AS MUCH as SAHM's. In order to form a bond with your child when s/he has spent a large portion of their day in a loving daycare setting, you must sacrifice a lot of your own time in the evenings, on days off and on weekends in order to spend a great deal of quality time with your child.

For example, my best friend works full time. Yet, just like many of our SAHM circle of friends she has a membership to the children's museum and the science center, and also participates in the neighborhood pool parties, the library and the zoo. She is still breastfeeding her 2 year old, co-sleeps with both girls, etc. She is 100% dedicated to her children when she is with them. How many SAHM's can HONESTLY say that they dedicate 100% of their energy to their children 100% of the time that they are with them? SAHM's need THEIR time as well - and must take it from their children's time. This is NOT a bad thing as we all know children need their own alone time as well. But, for a WOHM - she must take her own time at lunch breaks, driving to and from work, after the kids are in bed, etc - if she wants to build a strong bond with her children in the few hours every evening and days off she has to spend with her kids. It is a true juggling act that if done correctly and with love, only goes to show just how DEEP a mother's love can be for her children.

So, please don't think that someone else is raising a child of a WOHM. Someone else is only SHARING in this joy. WOHM's who are AP parents and want to bond with their children must work VERY hard to accomplish all that -- and I know SEVERAL who do it quite successfully!


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## Safemommy (Jul 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*
Oh, and it's NOT about having a big house, 2 cars, fancy vacations, etc. It's about having our own home in a semi-decent neighborhood, w/in walking distance of playgrounds & parks, w/ neighbors that dd can play w/; having a car that doesn't break down every month; being able to buy organic food so that I don't worry about pesticides in her diet (not to mention in the environment); and visiting grandparents occasionally. (And saving for college & retirement, having health insurance, etc.)

I just wanted to agree with this! It's all about priorities, and we all have different ones. You are providing your children something that many (not all) SAHM's cannot -- because they are things that require more money than they have. And, these things can be just as important as having a mom who stays home with you all day long.

One thing my working mom taught me by working is that women can be career women and raise a happy family at the same time. She taught me true work ethic and it's probably the most valuable gift she's given me. At no point in my life did I ever feel like I didn't need to or have the right to work -- because I saw my mom do a FANTASTIC job of working in a high level corporate position and STILL be the best mom in the world to me! We did EVERYTHING any of my friends with SAHM's did.

I am absolutely not trying to say working moms are BETTER than SAHM's -- I am a SAHM right now! I'm just pointing out, and agreeing with you that they love their children just as much as a SAHM does. And, they do not make the choice to work (in most cases) so that they can drive a BMW and live in the ritzy part of town.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*
It's about having our own home in a semi-decent neighborhood...w/ neighbors that dd can play w/;

Whoops, I want to clarify b/c when I read this quoted by SafeMommy it sounds REALLY snobbish! I just meant that we're living in a neighborhood where there are other children dd's age.

Yikes.







:


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks for sharing your POV, WOHMs.


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## Gendenwitha (Apr 2, 2002)

I'm going to skip over the six pages of what just seems like the same old SAHM/WOHM/BS







to comment that I think you might find this interesting:

If you look at it closely, you'll find only ONE person here answered "yes full time" ALONE.

There's 56 never have, never will
9 no but I plan on it
34 yes, part-time
and 35 yes, full time
(results so far, of course)

Now 56+9+34=99 so that means all 34 of those who answered "yes part time" also answered "yes full time" like I did. (Assuming that none of the other answers make any sense together.)

Dh and I have both been SAHP, did PT childcare when we worked different shifts for a while, then when they were old enough--3 & 4--to go to this great preschool, I got a great new job and dh and I worked the same shift. (I'm assuming here that great preschools are still considered "daycares" by self-righteous SAHMs, so called this FT daycare in the poll).

Anyway, on a non-AP board (if looking for differences is truly your motivation--cough, choke--) I suspect that there'd be more in the last category. But that's just a guess.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

My son is 2.5 and has never been in daycare as I am a SAHM.

However, I know that I probably will go back to work part time before both kids are in school. I will hold out as long as I can. Oh, and it's not for financial reasons, either.









There are some careers (maybe many?) where it just isn't possible to take 10 years completely off and expect to still be able to work in that field and be productive later on. And while I love being a SAHM to my kids, I definitely never wanted to be a "housewife" who is still at home even after the kids grow up and don't need me as much. I have a need and desire to be a productive member of society in other ways in addition to raising children.

I'm all for AP, and I think staying home with children at least the first year, preferably longer, *if financially possible*, is optimal. However, I think children can also blossom with having other loving, stable caregivers in their lives once they are of a certain age. Remember, in the tribal cultures mentioned in a lot of the AP literature, the kids weren't home with just the mom, they had a lot of other people looking out for them, they spent a lot of their time around other children of the community, and in some cultures the moms were out WORKING while grannies and aunties watched the (weaned) children. Sort of an ancient version of daycare, dontcha think?


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gratefulmom*
What does get me mad (and if this is aimed at certain mama's out there I cant feel bad) is when a SAHM hires a nanny to help her out with her children.

I was considering a nanny instead of part-time daycare for my son. I felt like having someone in my home would cause less distress for both of us, but ultimately found a great daycare that fit our needs. Of course, I wanted to do that because I own my own business and I needed to get back to it in order for it to continue to thrive (and keep us in house and home!) and I thought maybe a nanny would give me a little more freedom of hours, etc. So, I guess my situation is different than a traditional SAHM... of course, I don't see any issues with a SAHM hiring someone to help out. I mean, would you feel the same way if a SAHM had her mother or someone else helping out?? Is it the help or the money?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

to the original poster ~

i put my son in full-time daycare for a semester while i was in college, not because i wanted to but because i had no other choice. i needed the financial aid money so that we could survive.

now i will be working out of the home again, and leaving my two kids with their father, who will be a stay-at-home dad (assuming i can find a job







).

his business just recently failed, which is why i'm trying to find work.

it's not that we want two cars or a big house or whatever. it's that we need $money$ to pay rent, electricity, and phone service. and at some point i would also like to get out of debt...

we have no car ~ we've never been able to afford it. recently our internet service was shut off because we couldn't pay. if i can't come up with $50 by oct 1st our electricity will be shut off. i hate working and leaving my kids but it's a _necessity._ i've been pumping like mad so that my newborn daughter will never have to taste fake baby milk. we've been scrubbing diapers by hand for weeks because we have no money to do laundry with. i recently had to ask my dad to spare $20 so i could buy some interview clothes at the thrift shop, because my only work-worthy clothing consisted of a pair of khakis, which got ripped recently when i took a fall on our concrete walkway outside.

i'm just fortunate enough to have a partner who is willing to watch the kids, but if i didn't, i'd still have to leave my kids and work, and try to afford daycare on top of it.

please ~ to all mamas out there, try not to judge working mamas. it's harder on us than you can possibly imagine.

eta ~ there are so many inspiring WOHM's here.







s


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but I don't really understand how anyone can say "never have, never will." Maybe it's easier to be certain if you don't have much earning power to begin with--like I can see how it wouldn't be a hard choice between a $7/hour retail job vs signing up for food stamps and WIC and Medicaid. But are there really SAHMs here with earning power in the 30s, 40s, or more who would refuse to look for work if their husbands lost their jobs? I feel like I would have been failing my family if I had NOT gone back to work when my husband was laid off. We had enough savings that I could have stayed home a few more months, but then our cushion would have been exhausted and in the meantime we would have had no health insurance. My going back to work right away meant that we had an income and health coverage right away. Meanwhile my husband has been working on freelance and consulting projects trying to get an income stream going, and while he was able to simultaneously do the SAHD thing in the early months, once DS got a little older DH was just not able to do both. He could not go to an executive board meeting and sell a $10K consulting service while juggling a fussy 9-month-old on his hip, you know? And I had exhausted all of the leave time I could take off to care for DS while DH went on an interview or to a meeting. So we had to start DS in daycare about a month ago. It is not the worst thing in the world. He has fun there, and the other kids light up and greet him when he arrives. He is the youngest there and the others fuss over him. He's getting a social experience he almost *never* got when DH was trying to work at home and take care of him at the same time.

When I get home I wear him in a sling from the moment I get home until it's time for bed, only taking him out to have dinner and a tubby. He goes to sleep in my bed and nurses as much as he wants all night long. AP practices help me to make the very most of the time we are together. As a PP described, when you WOH you get very little downtime to relax at home and do personal things. We have a "rule" in our family about not doing any "personal" zoning out kind of stuff (internet, magazine-reading, etc.) while DS is awake, because every moment he is awake in our care is precious. We plan weekend activities around what we think would be fun and interesting for him, and try to get all our mundane errands accomplished during my lunch breaks at work.

Before all this I had the mindset that any couple can delay conception and organize their finances so that daycare would not be necessary. I thought people who said they "had to" work just weren't very good planners. I have been really humbled by the challenges of the past year. You really can't plan for everything, short of being independently wealthy. I just hope that those of you who would judge a mom in my shoes will continue to be blessed enough to never have to walk in them.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Well, I'll respond, as that is how I voted that way. It seemed the best answer for my situation. No, I don't have much earning power. This is the one of the reasons we made the decision for me to stay home in the first place.

If DH was laid off and couldn't find immediate work and I could, sure I would go back to work. But then he would be staying home with the kids, so no daycare needed. If he, then found a job, I would be able to go back home.

I do work out of my home, but it is certainly not enough for us to live on for any length of time. I really do not have any judgement against working mamas. It makes me very sad that this thread has become that way. This is what has worked for us, though.

Bec


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wakeUpMama*
I don't mean this in a snarky way, but I don't really understand how anyone can say "never have, never will." Maybe it's easier to be certain if you don't have much earning power to begin with--like I can see how it wouldn't be a hard choice between a $7/hour retail job vs signing up for food stamps and WIC and Medicaid.

there is a time limit for welfare benefits. you get kicked off after a very few years (varies from state to state). you are REQUIRED to WOHM. (which cracks me up, btw, that some of these same WOHM/daycare-bashers i have seen in other threads bashing moms who are on welfare...







: explain that one to me.) so especially if you receive benefits you can't say "never will."


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## CityGirl (Aug 1, 2003)

Just lurking on this thread....

So the original poster has now abandoned what she started?


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## sweetfiend (May 22, 2004)

I can say "never had, never will" because my kids are 16 and 12 and they have never been in daycare NOR have they ever stayed with a babysitter. So, if I chose to work or had to work now, they would be able to care for themselves.


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## CherylE (Oct 9, 2003)

To whoever it was commenting about how they thought there would be more SAHM - the way the poll was worded makes it skewed statistically. Why?

Because many moms HAVE (in the past) put a child or children in daycare but CURRENTLY are SAHMs! The only options I HAVE put my child(ren) in daycre. No option for "I have in the past but currently am a SAHM".

Also there's no option for "I don't use daycare by my child is cared for by a trusted friend/family member or his/her own FATHER while I work".

Also Dr. Sears is talking about infants. So there is also no option for - "I stayed home while my child was an infant but now that my child is a toddler/preschoolers/in school" they are in daycare/preschool.

So if the purpose of this poll was to truly see how many moms here were SAHM's or how moms here use daycare compared to a mainstream board - the poll itself missed the mark for that - so the results aren't going to be accurate.

(yes - I loved statistics class in college.







)

For me - I AM a SAHM - but checked "I have put my child'ren" in daycare". Because I had my oldest in daycare for 6 months so I could qualify to be on mat leave for a year with my ds (who I was pregnanct with by the time my mat leave with dd was over). Then I also used daycare for my children (then ages 2,3,4) while I was on complete bedrest with this twin pregnancy. So I have used daycare but I AM a SAHM.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm seeing a really huge assumption that people are mostly talking about infants and bonding here, while most of us have children of varying ages. All the talk about breastfeeding and such leads me to think that the SAHMs who "don't understand how we WOHM do it" are really thinking about infants. I suspect that colors everyone's reactions to this whole topic. Lets remember that children aren't always infants. Even the most dedicated breastfeeders stop eventually!

I'm also a little annoyed by the assumption that, if you child is in some type of childcare situation during the day (even all day, everyday) you and your partner are not his or her "primary caregiver". Just on hours alone, if a child is in daycare even 10 hours a day, then they are with parents for a longer period (24-10 = 14). And that doesn't count weekends, holidays, daycare closed days, vacations, etc. And the equation is different for the many of us who work or study part time. Seems like an incorrect assumption that is fueling differences that don't really exist.

I'm beginning to think that this whole debate is really the result of a lot of assumptions made by both sides that aren't true. Which makes it pretty silly to continue, don't you think?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Which makes it pretty silly to continue, don't you think?

No.

I've learned a lot in this thread.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wakeUpMama*
Maybe it's easier to be certain if you don't have much earning power to begin with--like I can see how it wouldn't be a hard choice between a $7/hour retail job vs signing up for food stamps and WIC and Medicaid. But are there really SAHMs here with earning power in the 30s, 40s, or more who would refuse to look for work if their husbands lost their jobs?

I didn't answer that way but I probably could have at this point - and that is not meant as a daycare bash for WOH as I have used daycare for my other children when I was a single Mom. But at this point in my life I think I can reasonably say "never will" because if DH loses his job then yes I would look for work and if I got it DH would stay home until he found work - we still wouldn't be using daycare because we wouldn't need to. I know that is not the case for everyone, but that's just our case.

I currently work 3 days a week around DH's schedule but we are selling our home and downsizing so that I can be a full time SAHM, and my earning power is way above the 30s to 40s. I make double what DH makes plus perks, and his salary is pretty decent.

I know this isn't what you meant in your post wakeUpMama so please don't take offense but this post got me thinking about the nasty comments I've heard IRL from other working Moms who tend to assume that the only women that become SAHMs are those with little earning power.







: That's a little personal pet peeve of mine.


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## bethwl (May 10, 2003)

Why do we have to keep having this argument? Why do moms who do use daycare have to say "but I did for a very good reason, so don't get mad at me"? Can't we quit with the hierarchy of mother(saint)hood here that deems SAHMs best, then single moms who do daycare because they MUST, then so on and so on.

I doubt that many of the few, few people in this world who are working solely to afford huge houses and cars, etc. are posting here. Since they're not talking, let's quit acting like they're part of this conversation. The people here who work do it for many reasons---personal fulfillment, to provide a life for children that includes saving for college, whatever. That's their choice. But I assume that the people who post here are "attached" and loving moms regardless of their working status. What they have chosen obviously works for them. Many moms who have kids in daycare feel quite ambivalent about it, too, and judgmental posts like this one aren't welcome. I put dd in daycare part-time because I was going crazy staying at home all the time and dh was mad that I wanted to go out by myself and do something every evening. Now that I'm working two days a week, I worry whether the daycare is a good place for her, esp. now that we're in the full-fledged separation anxiety phase. So for women who have felt like I did and do now, I guess we're SOL. If you aren't happy never leaving your child to be alone (or alone with dh), then something's wrong with you, apparently. If you feel able to carefully choose caregivers that are trustworthy and (gasp!) leave your child in their care, you're baaad. How would the OP feel if I said that I just don't get people who have so little trust in everyone that they can't find a single person besides the child's father that they trust to leave them with for an afternoon? Would such a comment put you on the defensive?

Oh, I could ramble all day, but it wouldn't be productive.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

There is lots of love through this thread, and that is the important thing.

Blessings all you adorable loving mama's.


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

Ok this thread is kinda scary, and I am not sure if I have a anything new and incredibly brilliant to add but I am going to try. We all are different and that is what makes us great. Some are SAHM's and feel fulfilled and don't need a job for finances or any other reason and that is great for them. We are all wired "differently". I love children and connect with them easily. Discipline comes easy as well as imaginative play. So I stay home and also have a home daycare, as we do need a second income, and caring for children is my "gift". Now others "gifts" are as healers, counselors, doctors, and a myriad of other things. I have a wonderful friend who loves her children deeply, but mothering does not come naturally to her, so for her her job is a renwal. She gets adult interaction and mental stimulation, and her children are with a loving adult and get play, interaction, positive discipline, and when they go home to her mother she is more rested and ready to give them the love they need from their mother, which I as a provider could never replace. I do love them immensely and my son calls them his sissies. And how could more people that love children ever be bad. Just because I am paid to care for them, doesn't make me love them any less. There are a huge array of people and best situations for them, so lets not judge and throw stones. If you have found a great situation for your family, feel blessed and enjoy, and wish for all people that they find that balance for themselves, in whatever form it takes.


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## Indigomama (Dec 26, 2001)

safemommy... i couldn't have said it better !









I have NEVER felt as if someone else was raising my child or that I wasn't the primary care giver even though my child has been in dc since a year for 6 -7 hours a day full time.

How I discipline, nurture, love, positively reenforce plays a MUCH larger role in his life than any dc provider has. What I do with him when I'm at home has a much bigger impact on his behaviour, his growth, and overall person than what anyone else does with him.


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Yes, what ABOUT the dads? Another thread, perhaps.

If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy, folks. And what makes mama happy varies from mama to mama. Don't take no college degree to figure that one out.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I have a question - do you WOHMs feel like you have to work harder to maintain a bond with your DCs than you would if you were SAHMs?

Nope. I had PPD so bad that I firmly believe I would have gone into psychosis had I been a SAHM. When I came home, I could focus on my son to the exclusion of just about everything else. He came first and knew it, still does. We have a precious bond.

I hate these doggone animosity threads but it's like a train wreck and I can't help myself.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow.
Who cares









I think it's legitimate to ask questions of SAHMs or WOHMs for ther purpose of learning from each other, but why do we honestly feel the need to be so divisive. I'm a SAHM now but worked our first year of kids and will go back to work p/t in another year. Each situation has its own set of challenges and rewards and people do what they need to do; ie. what's best for their families.

Sorry, just shocked to read some of the posts. But, then again, it's great to see some honest questions & replies.

And, re: the AP questions (?Playdough?) I do think that bond is one of the cornerstones of AP. But, I don't think it HAS to be Mommy. One of our friends is a fantastic SAHD who coulda written his own AP factsheet. And, I know some absolutely terrific daycare ladies who work there simply because they feel they're doing God's work caring for children.


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## Dylan'sMom (Aug 6, 2004)

:yawning:









Yes, I am angry, tired of and astounded at how many times I have read this kind of thread in my short time on MDC.

I am a WOHM of a beautiful boy. I have to work to help support my family, provide health insurance (husband is self employed = no insurance), provide some type of savings in the bank (because you don't know what will happen), and







: I enjoy working.

I feel that it must be nice for a 24 year old SAHM to be so judgemental at such a young age. I wonder how she will be at 34 (like me). Will she be glad that she has no money in the bank to fall back on if her husband loses his job? Will she be glad that she has not saved for college perhaps or retirement? Will she be glad that she doesn't have enough money to buy her wonderful child a special treat?

Now, I'm NOT implying that every SAHM is this way. Most are great women.. I just feel compelled to try and wake up this particular SAHM.

My husband & I have bought a new home, but still drive a 1994 car and a 1978 truck (like our brand new wheels!!!). But, if you would stop to ask about our life for a moment you would learn that we bought our house 3 months before I found out I was pregnant. That we were living in a trailer that was beginning to fall apart left & right. That we were living next to some very seedy neighbors (drug dealing house next door). SOOO...would it have been the responsible and loving thing to stay there and worry constantly about my son?? Or to have forfeited on our house payments and be homeless just so I could be a "perfect" mom and SAH?? I think not!!

DestinysMama, I would tell you not to bother opening up a daycare in your home, because if you portray this downgrading, "I'm better then you" and completely rude behavior to potential WOH moms - they aren't going to find you a suitable caregiver for their child. I can honestly say that I would never want a person so judgemental caring for my child.

I don't honestly expect this to change or open your mind - but hey, everything is worth one shot. (Actually I don't think she is still reading this thread - hasn't shown her face since page 1 or 2).

To answer a different question raised in here.....I don't have to try harder to bond with my son because he is in day care all day. I HAVE that bond with him and no one will ever break it. (Just ask my husband







)

In conclusion to my long post (sorry) ....I applaude







those moms who can and choose to stay at home with their children and those that choose or HAVE TO work out of the home, and who do so without a word. The ones that don't judge or criticize, and don't teach such behaviours to their children.


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## Safemommy (Jul 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherylE*
To whoever it was commenting about how they thought there would be more SAHM - the way the poll was worded makes it skewed statistically. Why?

Because many moms HAVE (in the past) put a child or children in daycare but CURRENTLY are SAHMs! The only options I HAVE put my child(ren) in daycre. No option for "I have in the past but currently am a SAHM".

Also there's no option for "I don't use daycare by my child is cared for by a trusted friend/family member or his/her own FATHER while I work".

Also Dr. Sears is talking about infants. So there is also no option for - "I stayed home while my child was an infant but now that my child is a toddler/preschoolers/in school" they are in daycare/preschool.

YES! I agree with everything you said -- perhaps I worded my post incorrectly.

The OP gave one very vauge option for SAHM's -- "Never have, never will" so anyone in the categories you are mentioning above will have to answer in the way the OP is trying to make proof of.

Also, she put ONE category for SAHM's while she put THREE categories for working moms (or even for planning to work moms). So, the percentiles are smaller for these working categories, with one big HONKIN category for SAHM's. Again, she appeared to have been trying to prove that SAHM's are in the majority here on this AP site, because gosh - how can you bond and thus love your kid if you work!!?????

And, no distinction for age of child -- which I'm glad you brought up. Not that it's not important to have a bond with your older child, but AP is more defined in the roll of a mother to an infant, than a 4 year old. Personally, if my almost 4 year old weren't in some kind of pre-school program, I feel I would be doing him a DIService. He needs and loves that interaction with peers. It's preparing him for Kindergarten (I'm not the home schooling type







). For a 6 week old -- ok, a bit different story there. Personally, I think if at all possible moms should try stay with their babies for the first year (doncha wish we lived in Canada!!) simply because it's easier to bond, breastfeed, etc that way. I know moms who have worked before the first year was up, and continued to breastfeed and AP their baby -- but it is more difficult on them!

Ok....sorry for being so long winded. I just think this "poll" is so skewed and messed up that it certianly isn't a fair snapshot of what AP parents on this particular board do with regards to daycare.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

I'm curious whether SAHMs have concerns about their financial security should something happen to the primary earner in their family (death, unemployment, divorce, etc.). After all, more than half of marriages (and probably a good percentage of domestic partnerships, as well) dissolve.

Has anyone read "The Price of Motherhood" by Ann Crittenden? I haven't read the whole book yet, but what I have read is hair raising. It's partially about how women who stay at home to raise their children are terribly vulnerable economically should something happen to their marriage. They don't earn any Social Security for their hard--but unpaid--work. They can be left in a real financial pickle in retirement, or in the event of a divorce/death. It is *very* difficult, unfortunately, to take time off from a career and then get back on track--we do not have a sufficiently family-friendly work culture.


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## Misti (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldabee*
Even the sleeping moments, for me.

<grin> Quite right. For us, too.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy*
There are some careers (maybe many?) where it just isn't possible to take 10 years completely off and expect to still be able to work in that field and be productive later on.


Exactly. While I think the tide has turned on this thread, I wanted to emphasize this point. I'm a surgery resident and there is basically no option for discontinuing work for a period of time and then returning later, without having to restart residency from scratch (and in the subtle persistance of the good ol' boys network, a SAHM would never get a position.) I was lucky -- my ovaries were compliant and I got pregnant right when I wanted to, so that I delivered right before starting two years of research and only working FT (whereas before I was working 100 hours a week.) Since then, I have made it my number one priority to be present for my son, even taking some career hits for it. I sacrifice almost all my free time to ensure that I nurture my son. I do my job during the day, plus all the housework/laundry/cooking/story reading/etc that can be done during the day (to a degree) by SAHMs. I fully respect SAHMs -- their job is also difficult, but mine is too and in a completely different way.

And regarding the question of WOH being prohibitive of AP -- most if not all of the wives of my male colleagues stay at home. Of those wives, none are what I or they would describe as AP. Babywise is common, as is FFing by choice, as is CIO, as is the attitude of "thank God my husband is home so I can get out of this house and get away from the kids." Some of it may be justifiable, some of it probably isn't. But in the dreaded AP head-to-head, I think despite (or because of) being a WOHM, I'd come out on top.

And my lovely delightful intelligent healthy son seems to be none the worse for daycare since a young age. A virtual thanks to Megan, his fabulous AP DCP.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

I WOH, and am deeply attached to my children.
I get to surf MDC at work, and hang with my kids at home.
Perfect.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I have read every post, voted, and still have yet to figure out the point of this thread. .

You know, I see sick kids where i work. Some very sick, or critically injured. I have had hysterical, screaming mothers hand me their blue, breathless & pulseless children...and I have yet to meet one of them who wasnt glad that i was there to care for her child.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I have read every post, voted, and still have yet to figure out the point of this thread. .

You know, I see sick kids where i work. Some very sick, or critically injured. I have had hysterical, screaming mothers hand me their blue, breathless & pulseless children...and I have yet to meet one of them who wasnt glad that i was there to care for her child.









No doubt.

Hmm...didn't we 'meet' on one of these threads a few yrs back????


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Yes we did! Ahhhh, the memories


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

And i think i said the same thing!

Why, some may ask? because it can easily sum it up for me, and well, its true. Sadly, its true, and it continues.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
I'm curious whether SAHMs have concerns about their financial security should something happen to the primary earner in their family (death, unemployment, divorce, etc.). After all, more than half of marriages (and probably a good percentage of domestic partnerships, as well) dissolve.


Of course I am. I'm a responsible adult that worries about her children's future.

I don't even get why you would ask this question. Just trying to fan the flames back up?

Bec


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Bec, this whole thread is a flame.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

You know, I see sick kids where i work. Some very sick, or critically injured. I have had hysterical, screaming mothers hand me their blue, breathless & pulseless children...and I have yet to meet one of them who wasnt glad that i was there to care for her child.










Bless you, sweetbaby3. To me that says it ALL.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

From the bottom of my heart, thank you.


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*







LiamnEmma.

I loved everything about your post, especially this:

It's attachment PARENTING, not just attachment MOTHERING. (sorry for shouting, this just gets me







)

Couldn't have put it better myself. My dh is a sahd, and works part time at night and weekends. I didn't even see sahd as an option on this poll.

My dh is WAY more MOTHERLY than I could ever wish to be. (I am a really LOGICAL person...) I feel we are making the best choice for our children, even though I am a WOHM. By choice. And Not for a big house and two fancy cars. Because someone else's parent gave up on them, and I don't want to see that teenager end up in prison, or dead.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

You know SB3? I feel the same about my job. I work with behavioral autistic children who I love. Everyday I get to see them grow and learn. So much joy.

I also get to come home and love up my sweet ds and cuddle with him. The bond that one has with their child is purely theirs and to discribe it would be letting out some great secret place in their hearts.


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## misfit (Apr 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
Has anyone read "The Price of Motherhood" by Ann Crittenden? I haven't read the whole book yet, but what I have read is hair raising.

Yes, read it. I don't agree with all her recommended solutions but her analysis was excellent. And she is really on to something. Whether we are home or not, working or not, we are not valued for our contribution to the world.

That should be something that unites us, not divides us.


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *misfit*
Yes, read it. I don't agree with all her recommended solutions but her analysis was excellent. And she is really on to something. Whether we are home or not, working or not, we are not valued for our contribution to the world.

That should be something that unites us, not divides us.

Another vote for that book. Folks, the "mothering wars" are exactly what the status quo is happy with. A united mom front would be a scary thing to the institutions that keep all of us down.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

yes, tracymom, no doubt! thanks for making that point.

i haven't read the book, but i firmly believe that we should *all* be compensate for the unpaid parenting and homemaking work we do. until we have that, none of us really making a true choice.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bec*
Of course I am. I'm a responsible adult that worries about her children's future.

I don't even get why you would ask this question. Just trying to fan the flames back up?

Ack...no, I wasn't trying to fan the flames (I would have thought the rest of my post would have indicated that, but whatever). Perhaps my wording was off. Rather than "Do you worry?" I think I should have said something like, " *How* do you deal with that worry?". The question was truly asked in good faith. I think it is an important issue, and I wonder how women who are out of the workforce for an extended period of time cope with the economically perilous position that absence puts them in.

It's not just worrying about your children's future, but also about your *own*.

Peace.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydeesac*
Ack...no, I wasn't trying to fan the flames (I would have thought the rest of my post would have indicated that, but whatever). Perhaps my wording was off. Rather than "Do you worry?" I think I should have said something like, " *How* do you deal with that worry?". The question was truly asked in good faith. I think it is an important issue, and I wonder how women who are out of the workforce for an extended period of time cope with the economically perilous position that absence puts them in.

It's not just worrying about your children's future, but also about your *own*.

Peace.

Sorry, this thread is getting me a little jumpy and defensive.

The fact that my earning power right now is less than daycare would cost is one thing that makes the decision easier. When my kids are older (maybe school age), I plan on studying to become a lactation consultant. This is work that I feel a calling to, and something that will make a difference in the world, as well as giving me a paycheck.

Until that time, I do feel nervous at times. It is something I think about. If something happened to my husband, I would probably have to sell the house and move in with a family member. If he lost his job, well, he still has a much larger earning power than I do.

Bec


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

The best mothers are the ones that withold judgment till they've walked that mile in the other's shoes, not the ones that sit at home thinking up ways to feel superior to others.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Yup. I agree with simonee.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

I work full time and put my dd in daycare when she was four months old.

cheers


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I had to with dd, now with ds I never have so he has been home with me since birth







I am not happy about putting dd in daycare, I regret it and feel guilt sometimes, but really there wasn't much I could do at that time although I don't like excuses, I should have found a way not to have to do it.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Well said, Simonee.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
But at this point in my life I think I can reasonably say "never will" because if DH loses his job then yes I would look for work and if I got it DH would stay home until he found work - we still wouldn't be using daycare because we wouldn't need to.

That sounds like a reasonable strategy, but it just didn't work out that way for us. It was hard for DH to go to interviews or career events or even just get out to a lunch meeting to network, while also trying to care for our son. He had some small contract-type work opportunities come in where he could mostly work from home, but he needed to be available for meetings during the day, and while he was being paid pretty well on an hourly basis, it wasn't steady enough for me to quit and he also wasn't getting any health insurance benefits. So I had to maintain my employment, and we had to make arrangements for substitute care for our son. We tried sitters, we tried an informal arrangement with another AP SAHM, but ultimately we found that a licensed daycare home was really the best environment for our son.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

...


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

You should all do what we did! We moved to Australia! No guns! Little crime! (go figure) You are paid 700 dollars every two weeks to stay home with kids! Natual living! Beach down the road! No fears of safety! Unlocked doors at night! Naked babies at the parks and beaches! Its absolutely lovely. Moms can be stay at home mums without fears of income loss. And I mean all this, it is all fact.

But hey, it was a big step and we now have to travel to the states a lot, but just thought I'd let you all know there are other ways if they are options.

With love.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
The best mothers are the ones that withold judgment till they've walked that mile in the other's shoes, not the ones that sit at home thinking up ways to feel superior to others.


Or the ones that sit at work thinking up ways to feel superior to others.









Bec


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I don't see either of them as trying to feel superior, saying that only causes conflict. As a SAHM, I have contemplated working. Either choice I make will have me feeling I am making the wrong choice. I do volunteer work, which has me leaving my child with my mother sometimes. Volunteer work is still leaving my child with someone other than her mother. So I still feel guilty. Cos sometimes she just wants mom.

It isn't trying to put another down, it is trying to lift OURSELVES back from a place we and society has put us. We can sit here typing for hours back and forth justifying our choices, and it will always ultimately come across holier-than-thou, because another mother will have made the opposite choice and feels like we are slanging her. And this just isn't the case.

For instance, when I wrote above, "I still feel guilty", another mother might take offense at that and think I am saying she should feel guilty too. And of course, that was not my intention. My intention is to convey my aspect of what I am going through, and has nothing to do with anyone else.

This thread is a good place for each of us with our different situations and choices to put forth our feelings of whether we are at work or at home, but to take offense at someone else's perspective is not seeing clearly. It is usually due to an inner struggle for that person who is trying to come to terms with their own choice and therefore is quick to defend it.

If I go to work and a mom says to me "How can you leave your child all day?" the only answer to that can be "It is very hard." End of story. It is a simple question requiring a simple answer. Anything other than that looks like you are terribly insecure with your decision and are almost trying to convice yourself aswell as others that your decision is ok.

Forget "superior". None of us feel that. I think we all feel hopelessly inferior, and trying to come to terms with our new lives as mothers and the sacrifice it entails - at home or at work. Working moms need more support emotionally because they have made a harder emotional choice. Moms at home need more support as they are neck deep in children's problems all day, and have sacrificed their own desires for those of a child. Neither is better. Both are tough.

Let it go. Let the confrontation go. Just lets support each other for our choices here, and not take offense to the comments of a loving mother putting forth her choice and her reasons for her choice. This thread could be a wonderful support thread, one where I read someone write, "I have to work because I need the money and I need the space." and the response is simply, "that must be hard for you. Tell me about it."

With love.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

What simonee said.

Calm - well said!

I'm 44 - old enough to be mom to some of the moms here. My dd is 17 months old & I work full time and have since I was 18. I hate it and I could hate it even more, but I have chosen to accept it, let it go and hope & work for the best outcome for my DD, DH and myself. I work to benefit of my family not to contribute to their detriment.

Does my attachment to my DD actually suffer because I work? Who knows... maybe, maybe not... there's no way to measure such things other than asking her how she feels about it some day when she's old enough. But I've made the choice I feel is most appropriate and least damaging for myself and my family, and yes, I do work hard to make it be the best I possibly can. But, I also think THE best way for a child to be well attached is to have two emotionally mature, well-grounded parents who are consciously responding to their child with love, patience and understanding. I can't see how the pinacle could possibly be about how many hours an infant's feet have dangled in a sling, or who is sleeping where. I don't believe in formulas that somehow magically add up to some utopian AP parent. Until we have a perfect world (read never) there will never be any perfect parents - even here in AP land. We need to get over all this parading of lists & realize it's not so much about what you do - AP is about who you are.

I found a wonderful, caring DCP and my DD still squeals with delight and runs to me when I pick her up every night. I won't parade my AP credentials 'cause I don't give a lot of credence to those lists. Just rest assured there's no big car or a big house here - we're deep in debt from DH's failed business attempt and we're an AP family. I fiercely love my child with every fiber of my being and have spent lots & lots of years before she was even a twinkle in our eyes planning & thinking of how I would parent her & AP is it.

Maybe I'll move to Australia - sounds wonderful to me!


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

My daughter goes to a babysitter during the days, but our situation requires it. She had a parent home with her for the first 14 months of her life, though. I had a year of paid maternity leave, and then my husband was a SAHD over the summer. With him deciding to go back to university to persue further education, we had no choice but to start sending her to a babysitter. We obviously couldn't survive on zero income.







I'm not working for the "huge houses and expensive cars," like the original poster suggested. I'm working to support my family. 

My husband will be a SAHD in the summers, until he graduates. She currently goes to a sitter around his school hours, so she's rarely there more than 5 hours a day. She's on a waiting list for both the daycare on his campus, and on campus where I'm working. I'll feel better knowing she's close by during the day, and if she's at the daycare at my work, I can go nurse her during lunch hour and breaks.

In a perfect world, I would love to be a SAHM until my daughter is in school full-time. But unless I want to be living in a cardboard box, I have to work. Sure, it's kind of sad when I stop and think that someone else is caring for my child, but I know that she enjoys her time there with her other little friend. And hearing her giggle as she runs to the door when I ring the sitter's bell, is the best sound in the world.


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## SillyMommy (May 13, 2003)

I voted never have, never will but I do leave Ryland with my sister often. Dh and I go out about twice a month or so and she and her BF come over and hang out - but usually Ryland is already in bed and he's very bonded to her so he loves to have her here.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I've never put Bran in daycare...we don't see the need for it for our family... Although I did used to work in one, so I guess if I ever decided to work in another one, I'd get to bring Bran to work...


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

In worrying about the financial future of my children...
Yes, I worry about it. We have a good life insurance plan if something should happen to us. DH is self employed and we have no retirement fund right now. Right noow our focus is our little children NOW, not later. My hope is that DH and I are giving our boys a solid fondation of love and support for thme to be the best they can be and love themselves and life.
My parents never had much on terms of savings, my Dad had a small life insurance plan, died at an early age and my mothere was left with not much at all. I will paying student loans my entire life probibly and dont regret my education one bit. I dont regret that my parents could not afford my schooling but sent me there anyways. I loved my father more than anything and that he had no "what if" money doesnt make him less of a parent. In fact we had a better relationship than friends who paid for school with a personal check had with their families.
Not to say that financial planning is wrong, believe me I would love to have saving money. Right now that is not our goal. At some point, I will have to go back to work to make our life less stresfull. BUt I hope to be able to work flexible hours and still be ariound for most of the wonderful things my children do.
CALM< maybe I'll move to Australia. I have thought about even Canada. They get a year maternity I think. The US has no worries about family bonds. Have a baby, leave them ASAP and get back to work. No wonder most of the countries that support families have less crime. Goes back to the Continuum Concept..


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

On the topic of Canada, yes we have a year of maternity leave, and they're talking about bumping it up to two years. We get a minimum of 55% of our income, but most companies will bump it up to 80-100%. Because I was making my full income for a year, and we were already used to living on one income, my husband and I were BOTH able to stay home with Brynn for her first year, which I think was a great experience for all of us.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
To be honest I have a hard time understanding wohm's. Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house? Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working?

Would it be OK, in your book, for a man to go out have a career? Would it be OK for a woman who didn't have kids to go out and have a career? I come down to: if it's OK for a man (with or without kids) and a woman without, why not a woman with kids? Men NEVER get asked if they plan to quit their jobs when they have children? Why do we continue to put theses expectations on women?

For what it's worth, I consider myself more Continuum Concept that AP, but I still read the boards. And no, I don't find it's a contradiction at all to be AP and working (for a parent of either sex).


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## Misti (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm on my way!!!










Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
You should all do what we did! We moved to Australia! No guns! Little crime! (go figure) You are paid 700 dollars every two weeks to stay home with kids! Natual living! Beach down the road! No fears of safety! Unlocked doors at night! Naked babies at the parks and beaches! Its absolutely lovely. Moms can be stay at home mums without fears of income loss. And I mean all this, it is all fact.


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

Nikki, thanks for the input on Canada.
We here in the US (government)have no clue as to taking care of the family as a unit.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Before everyone gets their hopes up, please note it isn't the easiest thing to expat to Oz! Just a word to the wise.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*

I have a question - do you WOHMs feel like you have to work harder to maintain a bond with your DCs than you would if you were SAHMs? My theory is that if you are a baby's _primary_ caregiver, a strong bond naturally develops.


Well here's your problem. I am my daughters primary care giver - even though she is in day care 45 hours a week. I'm STILL her mother - and she knows it. Of course, the bond naturally develops. Case in point - I watched my daughter take her first tentative steps at 13 months. She felt safe and secure. It was another week before she started taking steps in day care. That's how I know they were her first. She knows we're her parents and she feels safest with us.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Very true, Playdoh. I should have mentioned that. It is possible, but the paperwork will send you blind. Canada is apparently similar to Oz (except the weather, lol), and easier to move to. For a more easy lifestyle money-wise, that is a good idea too. And closer! It makes me wonder, it is probably a 'Commonwealth' thing, any country that is a part of the commonwealth is probably the same.


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## daisies (Oct 31, 2002)

Since my first dd was born, I have worked part-time, been in school part-time, worked full time and also stayed home full time. I have actually enjoyed all of those different scenarios.
I am very strongly attached to my dds and resent the notion that because someone isn't a full time SAHM...that someone is less attached, less committed, a bad mother.
Women...mothers...have so many stereotypes to contend with in our society. We have judgements thrown at us for all sorts of decisions. Why can't mothers be more supportive of other mothers?
To the OP...you are a young, new mother. Kudos to you for feeling so secure in your choices thus far. But you don't know in what ways you will change over the next few years and in the course of your child's life. Don't judge other mothers who have taken a different path. You may be on that path a year from now. You never know.
We are all doing our best to love, nurture, support and guide our children as they grow.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Just me, sending out love.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"Obviously single parents have no choice but to put your kids in daycare just so you can afford new cars and a huge house?"

Destiny's mama, did you mean, "....have no choice. However, to put your kids...."

Because if you did, I think it makes all the difference. I think many mothers here are reading that you are saying that they are single parents working to get better things. When in fact, I read it to mean that you are saying single moms have no choice, but it is not so good to put kids into daycare for the sake of it.

Am I right? If I am, I read that as non-offensive to anyone on this thread. Not one reply has mentioned they put their kids in daycare for any reason other than necessity (personal or financial). So therefore, we should see the OP for what it is, and all just stop taking offense.

With love.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

No, I understood how she meant it. But I felt that it was a presumptuous thing to say. Most of the dual-income families I know are not putting their kids in daycare just so they can afford new cars and a bigger house. They are doing it so that they can maintain some semblance of a middle-class lifestyle at all, perhaps live in a good school district, repair their 8-year-old car when it breaks down.

I know her statement lets moms like me "off the hook" from her judgment because I work for financial reasons. But you know what? I don't need her permission or her pity. That's what's got the WOHMs here riled up--well, that plus the suggestion that you can't really be AP if you WOH.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

I think that even if people "just" work for a bigger house it's none of destiny mama's business. If these are attached parents who love their kids, they probably just have different priorities than the parents who want to be with their kids no matter what. Maybe they grew up poor and it affected them a lot? Maybe they want a better neighborhood with better schools?


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I dont think Destinysmama cares or thinks about anything other than sitting higher and taller on her self righteous high horse.

She has been online posting but abandoned her thread that i have no doubt only meant to stir the pot.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:

I also think THE best way for a child to be well attached is to have two emotionally mature, well-grounded parents who are consciously responding to their child with love, patience and understanding. I can't see how the pinacle could possibly be about how many hours an infant's feet have dangled in a sling, or who is sleeping where. I don't believe in formulas that somehow magically add up to some utopian AP parent. Until we have a perfect world (read never) there will never be any perfect parents - even here in AP land. We need to get over all this parading of lists & realize it's not so much about what you do - AP is about who you are.
What Bippity said.

I don't know why I'm posting here again







, but I feel this uncontrollable urge to...

I don't know much about the OP. But here's what I've been able to glean from her posts:
1) she's 24--reasonably young, in our culture, to be a parent
2) she doesn't have a degree (this isn't a judgment, just an observation--I know there are tons of wonderful, intelligent women on this board who don't have degrees)
3) she doesn't *seem* ever to have held a fulfilling job.

Quote:

Or so you can feel fullfilled or useful by working? I never really wanted a big career I guess so I just don't get it, to me my career is my family.
DM, if you're still reading this *at all,* it sounds like you've found your identity being at home w/ your children. And that's wonderful for you!

There was a time for me (also when I was in my 20s, and I hadn't yet found my vocation) when I would've been happy to be a SAHM.

But...I had my dd at 36. I've worked my entire adult life, and I'm now in a career I find fulfilling (and no, it's not particularly "high powered," but I'm an academic librarian & I get to help researchers, students, and health care practitioners every day--and that's pretty rewarding!). I love my dd so much it hurts. But once you've achieved some financial independence, as well as interacting w/ other smart, interesting adults every day, it can be VERY hard to give that up. WOmen who work ft & then become SAHMs have a very high rate of depression. And I just can't see that being home w/ a depressed parent would ever be in the best interests of a child.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I can't seem to stay away either.

What Nate said. And Bippity too.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

If I was the OP I wouldn't come back either - look at how she's getting flamed! Ever think maybe she's not coming back to post because she's hoping this thread will die out and she can get on with her life?

I can understand how some people took offense but if you go back and read her original post IMO she just comes off as someone that is being honest about her feelings - she doesn't understand the desire to be a WOHM - and she is expressing that and then asking for feedback. I may not agree with her feelings because I've been on both sides but I do respect her desire to come here and express herself and ask for comments. What's so wrong with that really?

In the midst of all the arguing back and forth there were some really great nuggets of wisdom in this thread and I for one am glad to have been reading it.

Now you can all flame me.

Kitty


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Thank you, Kitty. I was going to post something similar.

Would I return to a thread where I was so flamed and also a profile of me was provided for everyone to see? NO.

If anyone wants a Let's Analyze Destinysmama thread, please go start it elsewhere. It doesn't contribute anything valuable here.

I will state again that because of the posts here, I have learned a lot and given much to ponder. I'm glad Destinysmama started this thread. It came at a time when these issues were on my mind and I was going in circles about them.

Thanks.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*
WOmen who work ft & then become SAHMs have a very high rate of depression.

Do you have any links or references for this statement? Sounds like it is a fact and I'd love to look at the research! As a librarian, no doubt you have the data.









I wasn't aware that simply working full time and then switching to SAHM carried those mental health risks. I think women should be warned about that so they can prepare and perhaps not be at home.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Kitty - I think the OP was pretty inflamatory and judgmental towards anyone who works and isn't a single mom. I am a SAHM, and I'm seeing this. I imagine some of the wonderful working mamas here were quite stung. By the 9 pages of response, I would guess that I'm right.

There are lots of things the OP could have done or said to smooth those feathers, but she didn't. She could have even said something to the effect of, "Well, this is the way I feel, if you don't like it, too bad. I'm done with this thread." But, again, she didn't.

I find that disappointing, and indicative that she didn't think how this topic and her wording would affect people.

Bec


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## jstar (Jul 22, 2004)

is WOHM working out of the home mom?

i'm a WOHM. my 4 month old ds is in daycare full time. at the end of my maternity leave i started getting really depressed about going back to work. i thought i was going to spiral into some serious PPD (having felt a little depression on and off since he was born). to my surprise i feel GREAT. i feel like i have life balance. i love my job. i love the people i work with. i love making money so i don't even have to think twice at the grocery store about what i'm buying. we'd be scrimping hardcore on one salary (and the thing is that i'm teh primary breadwinner so if anyone were to stay home it would be dh)

i also love the daycare i chose. i went and looked at six and there is a huge range in quality. i go at lunch every day to nurse and not once has ds been crying or anything. he doesn't seem unhappy at all. he gives big smiles to the ladies when we get there in the morning. dh has lots of days off randomly because he works construction so ds gets to stay home with dad or go home early a lot of times too.

i hold ds all evening and play with him before i give him his bath and he goes to bed. dh usually cooks dinner. i look forward to seeing his cute little face every day after work. and we really look forward to weekends









i hope someday to work 3 days a week instead of 5 but for right now everything is going great.

i was thinking this morning that it kind of surprised me dh said he is going to leave work early next week for ds' 4 month doctor appointment. so i was thinking how sweet of a dad he's being. he LOVES ds and is so cute with him...and he was kind of reluctant to becoming a dad. he isn't huge on the maintenance of the baby like diaps and bathing but i thought to myself that wasn't bad at all because i look forward to doing everything for him since i don't see him all day. when i was at home full time i wanted dh to do *everything* once he got home from work because i was tired of doing it all day.

i think everyone is different and there isn't one right answer to being a good mom. i had a SAHM growing up and it was AWESOME. as ds gets bigger i don't know what i'll end up doing. maybe 3 days a week or 5 days a week but getting off at 3 so i'm there after school. time will tell


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Playdoh;
I should've known someone would ask me for the studies! I can only find one right now, but I know I've seen something more recent. Unfortunately, that means searching PsycInfo, a database I HATE, and I don't have time right now. Here's what I've found so far.

Depressive symptoms and work role satisfaction in mothers of toddlers

Quote:

Olson AL, DiBrigida LA.

Department of Pediatrics, Dartmouth Medical School, Lebanon, NH 03756-0001.

OBJECTIVE. To determine the incidence of depressive symptoms in mothers of toddlers in community pediatric practice. The interaction of employment and work role satisfaction with depressive symptoms was also investigated. SUBJECTS AND METHODS. Depression screening measures were completed by 233 mothers of toddlers (aged 12 to 24 months) at health supervision visits in two community pediatric practices in New Hampshire. Depression was evaluated with a depressive symptom screening inventory modified by Barrett, Oxman, and Gerber from the Hopkins Symptom Checklist for use in primary care population. Data were obtained on parents' socioeconomic variables, hours worked, and whether the mother was satisfied with her current role of being employed or not employed. RESULTS. Depressive symptoms were present in 42% of mothers. Rates of depressive symptoms were similar in employment groups but varied significantly with work role satisfaction. When both employment and satisfaction were considered, mothers who were dissatisfied were 3.7 times more likely to be depressed. After controlling for work role satisfaction, mothers working part time were half as likely to be depressed as mothers working full time and not employed. CONCLUSION. Depressive symptoms are a major problem for mothers of toddlers in middle class pediatric practice. Work role satisfaction and employment status together are related to depressive symptoms.
It looks like what the researchers found is that
a) women who had been in careers (as opposed to just a job) were more likely to be depressed/conflicted
b) women who work part-time have the lowest depressive symptoms (lower than FT WOHMs or SAHMS)

Of course, there are plenty of studies pointing to high rates of internal conflict/anxiety/depression in professional women who return to work, so basically we're just doomed whatever we choose.









Also, was that comment about "analyzing" the OP directed at me? I was basing it only on what she's provided w/in this thread (haven't seen her elsewhere around here), so it's all pretty much common knowledge. And it wasn't meant as a "don't pay attention to her b/c this is all she knows" comment, it was a "this is where you're coming from, but think of it from another pov" sort of thing...


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*
WOmen who work ft & then become SAHMs have a very high rate of depression. And I just can't see that being home w/ a depressed parent would ever be in the best interests of a child.









Huh???

I'm a WOHWoman convert to SAHMom, and I'm not depressed. In fact, I am happier now as a mother! And I look forward to resuming some sort of career in the future (may not be exactly what I used to do, and hopefully, it isn't; bc my old career required 12 hour days and that wouldn't suit my new life as a parent).

I think this is a broadly generalized assumption. I know lots of mommies who had careers and became parents in their mid-late thirties, and they all seemed absolutely thrilled!!! Maybe it has helped us that my friends and I live in an urban setting where it is so easy to meet people and socialize even as a parent?


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Ok Nate, we cross-posted. I see that you do have research info... but sometimes I question these studies bc they may be based on women of different situations from my own? don't know. Just know that I don't know any depressed SAHMommies who are former successful career woman who had stimulating and challenging careers.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

Personally I have only left my dd 3 times, only for a couple hours each time. The first time was for dh and I to go out to the movies and the last 2 times were to set up my college courses. I will only leave her with my dh or my best friend. I guess I have trust issues but I also just miss being away from her. If I go into town to run errands for an hour I can't wait to come home and see her. I think part of the reason I'm so against leaving her with a sitter is because I was seperated from my mother when I was a toddler. I didn't see her again until I was 12 and it was very traumatic. I grew up with a lot of babysitters and daycare, I hated it.
What I find interesting is that she did consider daycare for herself, a self described SAHM, when she was looking to go back to school. Maybe I am too relaxed in my defination but to me a WOHM is any moms "who have major responsibilites outside the family as well as within." which is also how Mothering defines it.

Here is what destinysmom said in another thread:

Quote:

I'm considering putting my 16 month old dd in daycare for a couple hours, one day a week. I've been talking to my adviser at the community college and apparently there's really no way to get a CDA without attending at least one day class a week. To qualify for the financial aid I have to get at least 12 credits a quarter as well. I was hoping to do all of this on the weekends, nights and online so my dh could watch her. I only know one other person I trust to watch her, my best friend, but she lives 30 miles away and works from home plus she has 2 kids of her own to worry about. She can babysit once in a while but I don't think she could do it once a week for an extended period of time. Soooo I'm thinking about looking around at the area daycares. I'm not really looking forward to this, I've only left my dd once with a sitter since she was born, with my best friend. So I want to make absolutely sure I trust the place and it looks nice and everything. I'm trying to think of the positive aspects about this, that she'll be able to socialize with the other kids etc.
Thread is located at http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=183519

So its OK for her if it's school but not Ok if you are getting a paycheck?? It's selfish to work but not to educate yourself?She never responded back to that thread either.

GRRR I told myself I would stay away.







: I feel like I'm watching a train wreck and I can't stop looking.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdrianneWe*
Ok Nate, we cross-posted. I see that you do have research info... but sometimes I question these studies bc they may be based on women of different situations from my own? don't know. Just know that I don't know any depressed SAHMommies who are former successful career woman who had stimulating and challenging careers.

AdriannWe;
It's always good to question studies. (Sidenote--one of the principles of Evidence-Based Medicine is that you take a look at the published literature, see what the evidence suggests, and then *decide whether it applies to your own patient/situation*. So, for instance, just b/c Prozac is a great medication for your average depressed/dysthymic adult female, it isn't necessarily a good medication for a teenage male.)

Unfortunately as I said I can't find newer data, though I know I've seen something recently. "Very high" rates of depression was probably the wrong phrasing--more accurate would be higher than avg. But I didn't say *all* former professional women (or WOHs generally) get depressed--or at least I didn't mean to--I said it's a high rate.

And honestly, I shouldn't be here at all--I need to prepare a presentation for a job interview. So I'm going to be a BAD librarian and put out a statement I can't back up then quit looking. Sorry!

HollyBearsMom, ITA. Esp. the train wreck part. I think I'm unsubscribing now. See you around the working mamas forum!


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Hollybear, I know the post and thread of which you speak.

And ITA with your post.


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## Dylan'sMom (Aug 6, 2004)

OK, OK....I'm in the same boat with Nate and HollyBearsMama...I can't seem to leave this thread alone.

I was completely annoyed when I posted earlier and now I am completely insulted. The mama that originally posted this thread knowingly or unknowingly(as some have suggested -doubt it though) lashed out at WOHM. Now according to her other thread, she is gonna put her child in DC so she can continue her education (which I applaud). Is that not the pot calling the kettle black? Perhaps the reason she hasn't returned to this post is because after finding out she would have to use daycare, she knew she would "eat crow" coming back here. I just find it highly insulting to say that being gone for classes is somehow still better then being gone because of work.









I believe if she would repost to this thread and say "hey guys, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, not my intent" or something like that I would have a lot more respect for her "feelings". Even though she didn't have any for mine.

On the subject of depression.... I LOVED being home with my son during maternity leave, but there were times when I would get depressed. Call it PPD if you will, but I missed being around other adults. The walls closed in on me sometimes with just me and him there. I am 34 years old and have worked full-time since I was 17 years old. Not working all of the sudden was hard for me. At the end of maternity leave I was very torn on going back to work, but I knew that for me I would be a better mama working. Down the road things may change for me & my family, but for now that's the decision we've made.

WOHM (FT or PT) and SAHM love their children EQUALLY!! No one is better then the other, just different. That is the point that I believe the other mamas who have been as offended as me are trying to convey here.

Ok, now I'll go back to watching again







:


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Nate, I read through the study you posted and I cannot for the life of me make any connection between your previous assertion that women who work full time and then go on to SAH, have this high incidence of depression.

In the study, it says that women who don't like their jobs are 3.7 times more likely to have some depressive symptoms.










I had no kids and I didn't like a few jobs in my lifetime and yeah, I had depressive symptoms, too. Put a toddler on top of that (as in the study) and I would have situational depression as well.

Heck, men who don't like their jobs are probably a lot more likely to feel down about life, too. Or childfree folks. Or gay couples with no intention of having any children.

I just didn't see any information to back your assertion about the choice to leave working and stay at home (and the high incidence of depression for those women). Sorry.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

What is it about these threads that pull me back?! I am with you guys, the flamed ones are more interesting







. I have been coming here and supporting whomever seems to need it most, lately that has been the OP. It is good for my Buddhist practise, as it helps me be non-judgemental, even when I disagree.

To be honest, I did have trouble supporting the OP, but I gave it a shot (as you saw) and it is possible to remove myself from another's opinion - good practise anyway. It is intriguing that Destiny's Mama has disappeared, but I would be a little affronted, so if you are still reading, DM, give it a shot, you'll find we understand once you help us with what you meant, even if that is that you were just speaking your opinion.

I felt a little uncomfortable when her character and past posts were being brought in. For a young girl learning motherhood and learning how best to speak her mind, that would sting.

But again, I'm with the underdog, usually, whomever that is at the time. And I am also with anyone else who wants me LOL!

About the depression stuff. I can totally see why that is. It is a bigger shock to those of us that had 'big lives' before children. I travelled the world as a United flight attendant. I lived out of a suitcase for years. After the baby, no matter how much love is there, you feel locked in. In the quiet times, when babe was asleep, I felt so lost and like I had been ripped out of one life and dumped into someone else's. This doesn't happen to all working moms of course, but those who have stayed at home previously at least had some semblence of home life to refer to. I didn't.
Good thread, actually.

With love.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in...








The relevant parts were in the full text of the article, not the abstract.

Quote:

Stressors specific to the parental role have been shown to be an important factor in maternal depressive symptoms.[14] In addition, *conflict over their employment role may contribute to depression. In a small study, college educated mothers with 1-year-olds who were dissatisfied with their employment role (ie, at home but preferred to work) were shown to have more stress and depressive symptoms.*[15] Therefore, when studying maternal depression, both employment status and mother's overall satisfaction with her employment role need to be considered.
The article cited in (15) is DeMeis D, Hock E, McBride S. The balance of employment and motherhood: longitudinal study of mothers' feelings about separation from their first-born infants. Dev Psychol. 1986;22:627-632

More from the original article, which I can't post b/c of copyright:

Quote:

Independent of work role satisfaction, mothers employed part time were less likely to be depressed than mothers who were not employed.
Not a ton of data there, and I know it's not the study I was actually referring to. Oh well. It's a pretty cool article, though, talking about role satisfaction in the toddler years!

But now I HAVE to get some work done on this presentation I have to do for a job interview!







:


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Nate, step away from the keyboard....and get back to work! Naughty girl.....


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

:LOL

Thank you.
I need to turn OFF email, and turn OFF mozilla. But then what if I miss something really important?









No matter, I get to go home in 15 min anyway. Let's hope DD goes to bed at a reasonable time tonight so that I can do some work...


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

I need to turn OFF email, and turn OFF mozilla. But then what if I miss something really important
I know what you mean! Do I ever! :LOL


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Just for a side long view of life with babe, I took my daughter with me when I studied. It was much easier when she was a baby, just shove her on the breast at feed time, hold etc, and listen to the lecture. There were a couple of others like this too, one was a young father who took his baby to college. It was always lovely to see him surrounded by his books under a tree with his baby on the blanket beside him.

As she gets older, it is still ok for me, as I have a placid child so she sits at my feet with a book, or on my lap and fiddles with my necklace. We needn't stop our lives, we can bring the child into our lives.

I have a home business, and for appointments, I have taken my daughter with me to meetings, and it is amazing how people accept that. If i had a job at a separate company, I would expect child care there, or to have her in my office, if not, i would leave.

But i am in Australia, as mentioned, and things are different here. It can still be difficult, but unless we are all willing to band together for change, how will it change? We need not be separated from our children to work and learn. We should not be separated from our children to work and learn.

With love.


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## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

I haven't read all 190-something posts in this thread, but I did want to add my piece. I have been in both camps. I am currently working because dh is in school full-time so he can later support us with a single-income after he graduates. I have a love-hate relationship with working outside the home. I love the adult interaction, my personal fulfillment that I get from my job, and dressing up every day. I hate the grind of rushing all the time to make lunches, lay out clothes, try to get laundry done, etc. I hate that my dh and I never spend quality time together. I HATE leaving my girls everyday. I want to be at home with them more than I want to work but I don't have a choice right now. DH and I are busting our butts to get him through school and to be the best parents we can be to our girls.

I guess I am wondering how SAHMs can be judgemental of someone in a situation like ours, or of a single mom who has to work to survive. I am not saying that the majority of the posts on this thread are judgemental. But I have definately gotten that message elsewhere.

Maybe everyone who thinks I should be staying home could pitch in and send me a check each month so I can stay home!!! What a great idea!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i second that Sarah!!









everyone: gather up your pennies and send us some $money$ to live off of while we raise our kids!


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom*
And to the mama who said she was thinking of leaving mdc because there are just so many ap mothers who seem to be judging with religious fervor, I think if you count the number of responses that are clearly coming down on the side against daycare, you will find that is the small minority.

You're right. It is only a few people who are judging working mamas.

But this daycare issue is only ONE of many issues discussed on these boards.

It seems like every time I visit here, there is someone flaming parents who vaccinate, or parents who circ, or parents who use strollers instead of a sling, or parents who have used formula. If you don't make all your food from scratch or if you drive a car that's not fuel-efficient or if you don't use cloth toilet paper, there is someone ready to scold you for it.

There are a lot of things I feel are "best" for children. My boys are intact, and they are homeschooled, and are being raised as freethinkers/skeptics. Those things are important to me. But I'm not going to berate others nor pity them, nor look down my nose at those who do things differently with their families, as long as the children are loved and provided for. There is no such thing as a perfect parent, and some of the people 'round these parts would do better to remember that. Whenever you point a finger, three are pointing back at you.


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

Hmmm, I haven't read all of the posts, because I just don't have very much time to be online now a-days, I'd rather spend time with my daughter. (not being snarky, just true. I had to stop coming to MDC very often because it sucks me in and then the hours slip away!!!) But I noticed this thread and thought I'd add my .02.

Attachment Parenting is based on Attachment Theory, originally developed by Dr. John Bowlby. Over the past 50 years (I think more actually) their studies refined this theory of attachment. Basically, it means that it is absolutely imperative to meet children's needs in their first years of life. They need at least 1 stable attachment, usually it is to their mother, who will meet all of their needs. The children express what their needs are, not their caregivers, and certainly not outside gossips. Children placed in quality care outside the home do best when they build an attachment to their new caregiver, in addition to their first attachment to their parents. If children are placed in quality care, it can be a wonderful growing experience, often exposing them to learning experiences and materials that their parents can't possibly provide, as well as allows them to make some great friends.

Just because a mother stays home with her children, doesn't mean she is meeting their needs. Just because she says she follows a checklist of things she advocates doesn't mean she is meeting her children's needs. She may be, but it is not a given.

I am a single mother who while using up savings and living off worker's compensation started a WAHM business making and selling jewelry. I love doing it, but it wasn't bringing in enough for us to live on and build for the future. I also was busy a lot during the day, and found I wasn't meeting my daughter's needs as well as I felt I needed. Last semester I took all 4 classes I needed to take to earn my Early Childhood Education Certificate while my mother watched my daughter (every day) during my classes. Now, in addition to my flourishing jewelry business, I am working in a wonderful Reggio inspired Preschool which uses primary caregiving. My 2 year old goes there too (for free), and she loves it! She loves her teacher and new friends, who she will be with until they all graduate or leave the school. I am working in the infant /toddler room, and love it. I'll be with my kids until they leave too. There are many daycares/preschools that are trained in Attachment theory (moreso than many parents) and meet the children's needs. They are able to handle and prevent tantrums, teach problem solving, and honor the children as they learn to become social people.

Those who have no experience with daycare /preschools really have no place making judgements on them. They just have no idea.

Peace,

Karen


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## hopingtobe (Apr 20, 2004)

I have read many of the posts in this thread, but not all.
In the area of daycare, I feel I have done - and am still doing - what is best for my kids.
I am not American and the SAHM-WOHM debate is non-existent where I come from. Nevertheless, this question interested me, and I participated in the poll.

I have been home with my dk until they were just over one year old. Then I (and dh) have worked and have at the same time given our dk top priority. Always being home if they were ill, being involved in our kids' daycare, living our life with our children as much as possible, etc.

I have an absolutely wonderful daycare mom for our youngest, ds2 is attending a great nature-kindergarden (situated outside our village) and our oldest loves his public school.

So, maybe I am not really AP, but I still love Mothering and I am still 'hopingtobe' a great mom for my kids


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## isaberg (Oct 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DestinysMama*
Personally I have only left my dd 3 times, only for a couple hours each time.

Does this sound kinda disturbing to anyone else? I'm a full-time SAHM of an 18mo, but I have literally lost count of all the people who have helped me out with my child, college students (dozens!) and kids from church and friends with kids and neigborhood grandmas and random pubmistresses and my once-a-week babysitter and my mother and my grandmother and my aunts and my mother-in-law, and especially *DH*. Some have just held the baby for a bit while I had a shower, some have passed her around while I was singing in choir, some have taken her to the park while I had to study or nap, one took her for a few hours while my husband was in the emergency room, some have just borrowed her 'cause she's so darn cute and they had to show her off, and I can't count the number of times dh has taken her when I went knitting or beekeeping (try that with a toddler!) or just needed to get out to the gym or for a mental-health break.

How can you raise a child without a community? Isn't that child going to be massively distrustful of the world in general? If there's another parent involved, is that parent going to feel any real sense of accomplishment if he never gets to parent? I'm pretty darn AP, but my daughter loves people, smiles constantly, manages to make even the grumpiest person look at her and grin, and knows that the world loves her. Would I be a better AP mom if my kid was scared of strangers and didn't know how to interact with other kids? I doubt it.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Careful we don't pull apart Rebekah's way of doing things, as that would be exactly what other mum's were upset about her doing in the first place.

With love.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DestinysMama Personally I have only left my dd 3 times, only for a couple hours each time.
NO NO NO, it does not sound distrubing to have a parent NOT leave their child in the care of someone else. My child is left with his father while I am in class for 2-3 hours a week and his grandparents for 2-3 hours on Sunday while I house clean. He even went to work with me at the ripe age of 8 weeks. This boy of mine goes with me everywhere. This is how I teach him to interact with the world. By showing him my morals and how I interact with other people.

Quote:

How can you raise a child without a community?
This is a favoirte. It is NOT the responability of other people to raise my child. I chose to have my child and am not going to make other people help me.

Quote:

Isn't that child going to be massively distrustful of the world in general?
Huh?? Why?? My son has had me his whole 2.5 years (and dad). He is more social and non-distrustful with the world and people then most of my daycare children I watch. Why is that. Could it be because I am there for him, to teach him that this is okay take that step forward? People who watch children aren't necessarily teaching, guild and instill the morals of the parents. Most times the provider is there just to make sure the child doesn't get hurt, that is it.

Quote:

If there's another parent involved, is that parent going to feel any real sense of accomplishment if he never gets to parent?
I want to answer this but am not sure what the prior point was for this. It is the responability of BOTH parents to work with a child. If one parent is involved then the other parent needs to get involved by making effort. You can remind your partner to parent but they need to step up and parent too. They can't have accomplishment handed to them.

Quote:

Would I be a better AP mom if my kid was scared of strangers and didn't know how to interact with other kids?
So does this mean that because some of us refuse childcare or pre-school that our children are scared of strangers? Again my son goes with me everywhere . He is more social then his older cousins who have been put into school and a community that is big on letting each other watch the children. His cousins are scared over the smallest things.
First time he was around other children, he was passing out toys and laughing. Another child grabbed his toy and he looked at her and walked away. His interaction with others is what I taught and shown him from my actions.

Children become adults all to soon. They wil not need us around 24/7. Why waste that bonding, that parent/child time, by sending them to a childcare or pre-school? I have NEVER needed away time from my son. I take all I can get from him because in a couple more years he is going to be wanting to go off and hang with his friends and on to school, job, college, partner.

My SIL would rather put her son in childcare SIXTY HOURS a week then keep him home on her days off. They both get off around 3pm. That last 3 hours of childcare is for the parents to go off and play without their child. How gross is that?

I find it a normal cop out that socity as instilled on parents that you NEED alone time, you NEED to put your child in daycare, you NEED your career. It should be want. I want want want. I WANT to be with my son and have worked hard to make sure I can be the one to watch my son.


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## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

kimmysue2 said:


> My child is left with his father while I am in class for 2-3 hours a week and his grandparents for 2-3 hours on Sunday while I house clean.
> 
> ......
> 
> ...


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Oops my bad (Hey I got a C in my English class) I should have been more clear that I do not concider my parents or husband leaving my son. But I guess I am out of his sight for 5 hours a week.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:

Most times the provider is there just to make sure the child doesn't get hurt, that is it.
That has NOT been my experience with the childcare providors I've had for dd (not that there were many, either). But I wouldn't leave my child with a providor who was just watching kids like a shepherd watching sheep. And it was easy to find loving, caring people who became like family to dd, dh and me to watch dd.

Please don't paint all or even most child care providors as cold people, looking for a buck (because there aren't bucks to be had in the industry anyway), especially since there are so many awesome WAHM who care for neighborhood children, so that those of us who WOHM can better provide for our families.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

I don't and I am a childcare provider, talk about ironic.
Just because I did not list all the bad in my post, doesn't mean I am unaware that there are good providers.
That said. I am surprised how many ARE. In my two ECE classes. They say they just sit there watching like a shepherd dog. I went to a chidcare center for observtion and all the two providers did was tell the children not to do something since it could hurt them or others. When some of the children cried more then others the adults would say Oh that child is SO whinny and not take the time to interact with the child.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

I know you had mentioned you are a childcare provider. That's why the statement really stuck out to me. The childcare providers I've known (and I used to be one, too) might have reversed the statement to indicate that there are some bad ones out there, and there are some very excellent ones. I, too, have met some crappy childcare workers. My more recent experience has been with really great ones, and I was standing up for them. Like I said, they've become like family!

Given that this whole thread is rife with sweeping generalizations on all sides, perhaps we're all to some degree feeling a little defensive?


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
I have NEVER needed away time from my son. I take all I can get from him because in a couple more years he is going to be wanting to go off and hang with his friends and on to school, job, college, partner.

My SIL would rather put her son in childcare SIXTY HOURS a week then keep him home on her days off. They both get off around 3pm. That last 3 hours of childcare is for the parents to go off and play without their child. How gross is that?

It seems to me that you visualize this as a black and white issue. Either one chooses to spend almost every waking minute with their children, or one chooses to spend almost no time with their children.

There is a middle ground. Most people do not fall into one of these extreme camps.

Quote:

I find it a normal cop out that socity as instilled on parents that you NEED alone time, you NEED to put your child in daycare, you NEED your career. It should be want. I want want want. I WANT to be with my son and have worked hard to make sure I can be the one to watch my son.
Well, everyone is different. Some people do need alone time in order to regroup and be an effective human being. Some people cannot just give give give constantly and not have time to regenerate themselves.

I am also looking at this from another point of view.... of a mother who has been around her children for much longer than 2.5 years. Yes, I enjoy my kids. But they can wear me out. Sometimes I like them to go play by themselves and give me a break. We're a military family, so there have never been grandparents nearby to watch my kids if I have a doctor's appointment. Sometimes my husband has been gone for days, weeks, or months at a time. We've been homeschooling for five years. You view it as a cop-out that people need alone time, but I can't even imagine needing childcare in order to clean my house. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Remember the woman who drowned all 5 of her kids? She had no help, and seemingly no time away from her kids. She needed time away from her kids. If you have PPD *sometimes* taking a couple hours breather, handing baby over to dp or a family member, etc. can save lives.
I'm using an extreme example, I know. Everyone's different. Everyone, adults and children, have different needs. Having children doesn't mean adults should ignore their needs.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:

Remember the woman who drowned all 5 of her kids
Big leap assuming all this woman needed was "me time". To do something as horrid leads me to think something was wrong with her long before she even had kids.

Besides she could have asked for help any hospital or police station would have taken them if she had said I am going NUTS.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Andrea Yates had time away from her kids and help. Her MIL came over frequently to help both when Yates was in a catatonic state and when she wasn't.

She was also in patient at least once and MIL came over to help Rusty Yates, as well as other people (came to help).

She needed more than that and the belief system she subscribed to (religious stuff) didn't help. But to say she had 'no help' and 'no time away from her kids' is incorrect.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

You're right, that was an extreme and bad example. The point I was trying to make, which got drowned out in the example was:

Everyone's different. Everyone, adults and children, have different needs. Having children doesn't mean adults should ignore their needs. Some families need both parents working to make ends meet. Some people need to get their pedicures. Some people need time away from their kids. Everyone's different. Period. To be judged for adressing one's needs is unfair. I think many of us on all sides of this issue are feeling unfairly judged.

ETA: And ANdrea Yates needed to be away from her kids instead of drowning them that day.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Oh thanks I did not have time to research all the stuff about her. Like I said it was something way more wrong then just me time with her.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

First, no one said that "all" Yates needed was time away from her kids. I think we can all agree that she needed a whole lot more than that. But more time, more help, and more support might have helped.

So I will put myself out here as an example of someone who does, indeed, need time away on a regular basis. I am a darn good mother for a limited time. I am patient, I can do GD with the best of them, I don't yell, I "go with the flow", I clean up spills without a problem... (No, this is NOT my only definition of "good mother" but it is a list of things that are part of it. No flames for not coming up with a consise way to make my point). But, if I don't go to work on a regular basis, I loose all of that. I yell at everything. I can't think or cook or concentrate on reading a book. I have horrible thoughts of striking my children or locking them in their rooms just to turn off the noise for a while. I over-react to situations that are really very minor. I know this because the end of a "daycare closed week" can be real h*** for everyone if I don't plan carefully and have some help during the week. I am an introvert who doesn't like noise. When I get overwhelmed by stress or noise, I do not function well. I have a history of depression which kicks in when this overwhelming stuff is chronic. I could not more be a good SAHM than a good DJ in a nightclub, at least not with the two small very active children that I have been blessed with. So, I work PT to balance my personality and needs with the personality and needs of my children. I chose daycare/preschool very carefully so my children get the best of all possible worlds, or as close as I can get to that. I don't really "need" to work for economic reasons (though life would be a whole lot less pleasent if I didn't), but my children need me to work so they aren't scarred for life by an abusive mother. With different circumstances, I would never have chosen motherhood at all. But the right partner, the right balance, the right community and I think I'm doing a pretty good job of it.

Why can't we assume that most parents are truly concerned with finding the best situation for themselves and their family? Truly, we never know what is driving the decisions that people make. I'm sure many here would see my life, talk to me a few times, and judge that I "shouldn't" be working or look down on me for the decisions I've made. But you would miss great big parts of the picture. It is rarely so black and white as it looks on the outside.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:

, I work PT to balance my personality and needs with the personality and needs of my children
That makes sense to me. Key word balance. Nice.


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

Ok this thread is so polarized it is scary and I think Evan and Anna's mom made a wonderful point. We are all very different and what is "best" for one family may be completely bad for another. Some people are "wired" for children. They interact easily with them, discipline comes naturally to them, they are great at thinking up imaginative ways to entertain them and childrens intense energy levels works with theirs. I am like this and that is why I became a mother early in life and also make a career out of childcare by being a provider for others. I have a "gift" for relating to children easily, (it is not so easy for me to relate with adults. Now other are not like this. One of my best friend's is a wonderful mom and she loves her kids just as much as I do, but she is not a "kid" person. She doesn't know how to play with them easily, gets frazzled by their energy levels, and discipline requires a lot of research and thought for her. She uses me for childcare, so she gets the adult stimulation she craves and is then a much better mama when she is with her kids, and her children are with me and have a blast, and are in much better moods when they go home. Would her children be better off if they were always with their mom who resented them? And even though I am a "kid" person, does not mean that I don't ever need a break. I have always made an effort to make sure their father had lots of alone time with them, and also their grandparents and if I wasn't blessed with having so much family in the area I would look for a loving person to give me breaks when I needed them. Just because I am their mom does not mean I am their sole provider. Whenever we step into judgement of others it is dangerous ground. We don't know all the dynamics of a situation and why someone truly chooses something. There are many complicated issues at hand, and when I heard about the Yates woman and her 5 children all I felt was pain and sympathy for what horrible dynamics were going on there as for her to feel that was her only option, and all the horrible judgement I heard just made me sad. No, that does not make it right what she did, but her judgement is only between her God and her, it isn't anyone else's business.


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## sarahbay (Oct 30, 2003)

I'm quoting a post to make a point:

"I'm curious whether SAHMs have concerns about their financial security should something happen to the primary earner in their family (death, unemployment, divorce, etc.). After all, more than half of marriages (and probably a good percentage of domestic partnerships, as well) dissolve.

Has anyone read "The Price of Motherhood" by Ann Crittenden? I haven't read the whole book yet, but what I have read is hair raising. It's partially about how women who stay at home to raise their children are terribly vulnerable economically should something happen to their marriage. They don't earn any Social Security for their hard--but unpaid--work. They can be left in a real financial pickle in retirement, or in the event of a divorce/death. It is *very* difficult, unfortunately, to take time off from a career and then get back on track--we do not have a sufficiently family-friendly work culture."

"drownin her kids cuz she needs some alone time"

Ok.....

Don't you allll seee something wrong with this??

Why do you all go to work? To make more $$. Right? Why do you need $$? To make a nice home for your child, to have some me time, to buy a car that will drive you to and fro without stopping to breakdown on some lonely deserted island.

These are all necessities of the normal everyday modern person with any brains right?

Well what is wrong with our soceity that makes all these things so out of reach for everyone with no money???

It is pure greed. Greedy politicians, Greedy corporations. Greed makes you think you need all these things and more to make a decent normal life for your precious children.

I dare you to watch one of those documentaries on Iraq or some other desolate country in the middle of nowhere. They pray for food, to never be hungry, and water to never be thirtsy, and to never have to BE ALONE!

Solitude could mean certain death for a woman or man, especially a woman with children to take care of. They are completely dependant on extended family to help with basic chores like getting water, watching animals, cooking, watching children, etc, etc....

Think of what they live without. And many of them happily! You know they don't have this self esteem problem like we do here. They are so welcomed by neighbors, friends, relatives. They are truely loved from birth. Mothers have a super AP philosophy, they couln't otherwise or baby might die!

Most of the world lives like this. We are sooooo sheltered in our shiny cars, in our central air houses, we have light at the push of a button, we have water at the turn of a faucet.

My neighbors don't give a hoot about me. If I broke my leg tomorrow, and called them up to help me, they might bring over a casserole, once...Gee they might even rake my leaves for me! LOL!
But any more than that and they are tooo busy. Isn't that everyone's excuse these days? Too busy? It's because it's not just an excuse it's an epidemic.

No one is blaming you for putting your kids in daycare. Daycare is not really the problem is it. IT's this society, it's this mindset, it's our commercials it's this computer!

You'd be astonished and totally surprised at the number of women who do without the things we take for granted in America too.

I dare you to go visit one of there women. Can you think of any? I'm sure you've met one or two. go into their homes. How much food is in their cupboard?
How many useless items are cluttering their tiny homes?
Not much huh.

Many, many sahm's do it out of pure determination and heartache for a few years, so that they can raise someone who will be a caring indidvidual, someone who will be sane and confident.

Someone who will not drownd their children, who will not shoot up drugs, who will not run over your cat.

Who will not grow up to be a greedy corporate owner. It's fine if you go to work, it's fine if you stay home. If you love you child that's the most important part. Get mad at those who lie to you and tell you they care, but really do not!

Don't get mad at that young lady who has the guts to stand up the bull and the commercials, and her friends and neighbors urging her to "go back to work, get a breather, get a life."

Let her watch her child in peace.

Have the guts to stand up and say it's ok!!

Ok off my soap box. Please excuse the typos, my ds was nursing on and off... LOL! My point was that all those articles saying it's common to feel guilt about putting your child in daycare, were right and very very wrong. If you want to stay home but cannot, that means there is something sooo wrong with this culture. If you don't want to stay home, well that's another story alllllll together! They are two totally different topics in my opinion.

One truth of the matter is that all babies want their mothers. They have that built in monitor that beeps when mother is not near. It's there from millions of years of programming. We don't give birth to a person, but a very helpless infant who in this world could get eaten up if left by mother. It's also programmed in most mothers. That beeper, especially if you are nursing. It's not wrong to want your baby so much that it hurts. If your company and your baby are competing for you, it's very very hard to tell the company no, especially when we are bombarded with cultural views.

In this country our feminist movement forgot the fact that we have a uterus!

In Japan in their feminsit movement they brought the baby to work slung on thier back with them!

Don't forget its only been about 100 yrs since the time when all a woman's work was to care for the young, cook and clean. We think we are sooo superior to other cultures, and other times ago, we have no sense of history.

"History is like a mother that kneels down and kisses us with knowledge"

Even the word MOTHER is soooo powerful. I am a sahm simply because my mother was a divorcee who had to go back to work, and me and my bro were latchkey kids. I want to be here for my kids. That's it plain and simple.

There are many ways to either do without and still live the good life, you just have to be very creative, very thrifty, and very very determined. My Dh makes about 30 thou a yr, and I am a super sleuth who got us a gorgeous old victorian 3 bdrm house on a quiet street for 50thou. there are other forms of healthins in this state that work jsut as well as the big expensive kinds. We never eat out, we get way more tax breaks being in this bracket, my dd goes to the best private school in town on a scholarship. We do have decent cars because we didn't just settle for whatever they had on the lot and were willing to swindle us at the dealer. Yes my parents have helped us out of some binds many, many times. Not necessarily financially, but in other ways that would have made life much harder. I do wish we lived near them as that would make life even easier. We might make that our next move! I work from home now and help to bring in some income. But the work as a mother is worth so very much that you can't compare it to anything. Whether that is full or parttime work as a mother, it means so very very much to your child!

I hope I have not insulted anyone, if so please just ignore me and go on your merry way. It was not intended as a threat. The real threat is our Western way of life that has us all in a strangle hold, and we don't even know it! SOmeone near me said, they wished things would get even harder for families. Not to hurt anyone but to show just exactly what really is important, and what can truly be lived without.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahbay*
Don't forget its only been about 100 yrs since the time when all a woman's work was to care for the young, cook and clean. We think we are sooo superior to other cultures, and other times ago, we have no sense of history.

OK, leaving aside the rest of this post, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't, remember that the above was true if you were lucky. If you weren't, you never had children and you spent your life cleaning and raising *other people's* children. Or you sold your body to buy food and prayed that you didn't have a baby. Or you died young from starvation, from childbirth, from being beaten by your husband, or from disease. While there are certainly things wrong with our culture, let's not romantize history so much that we lose track of the reality that these women faced too. Every culture and every time frame has/had its problems. Ours may be different from Africa now (where vast numbers of children are raised in AIDS orphanages) or from Europe 500 years ago (see above). Its different, but it is not necessarily better or worse.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Women always worked hard - in the barns and fields on farms, in bars, in boarding houses, in shops, in textile mills, in other people's houses.

A VERY limited understanding of history would have the majority of women as homemakers and home managers. In the Ninteenth much of Twentieth century England and America, women were HARD workers (excepting the very small and privledged middle class). Check out peasant woman in Russia and England and france and working class women in any country prior to the end of the second world war. Women worked outside of the home as a rule, leaving thier babies with the old woman down the hall (if they lived in an urban setting) or with their spinster aunt/grandma (if they lived in a rural setting).


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I hate the myth that women have historically been SAHM's as we understand that term today.

Thank you to the posters who pointed out how untrue that is.

It is far too easy to romanticize the past (and other cultures, for that matter.)

I would argue that the idea of a woman isolated in her house and raising her children by herself is a modern one and frankly bizarre.

FTR, I stay at home but I have made it a point to seek out and help create communities with other moms. I NEED to be around adults a fair bit. I also NEED me time. Not ashamed to say it, and I don't think it is a flaw.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Perhaps some of our overburdened ancestors would LOVE the resources we modern women have:

1) competent (licensed and reviewed!) daycare (no leaving your child with her 4-year-old brother as babysitter while you farm)
2) messageboards and blogrings for parenting issues, and less personally, internet research in general for parenting concerns ("is that black spot on my child's neck the Plague?")
3) telephone hotlines, television, and general social awareness of child AND mothers' needs ("gee, there's a diagnosis -- post-partum depression -- and treatment for what I feel? I don't have to kill myself?")
4) support from MILs, partners, and employers, for some moms. Sure, it can be improved -- but it's better than most women of any generation have ever had.

Respectfully, *sarahbay*, I disagree that this generation is so lonely. I think we have more of a village -- even a global village -- than ever. No, I (as an entirely solo parent) don't have a half-dozen neighbor women or family members helping me parent in a hands-on way, but neither did any non-fictional generation before me. And I think I've got it better, because besides the above factors, I have something novel my predecessors could only wish for:

5) the legal and social right to parent on my own. I don't have to have a husband, or be of any particular sexual orientation, to adopt or even give birth. (And yeah, there are still strides to make here.) I get to own property and hold a job so that I, alone, can provide for my family. And my sisters have the same rights, so that they can freely *choose* whether to, say, stay at home while a husband or partner monetarily provides.

Thank goodness for progress. And may, as you insightfully suggest, our sisters in other nations soon have the same rights.


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

You know my mom made a snip at me that I think totally relates to this thread. She asked if one of my other SAHM friends I talk about is "whiney" and it caught me off guard and made me defensive at first but now I think I know where it was coming from. When my mom was a SAHM and in this very demanding time in life, it wasn't societally acceptable for her to "whine" about it. She would have been seen as a bad mother for complaining about it, so she just stuffed it, stuffed it until she had had an affair and got divorced all without ever arguing with my father, they just never complained, even though I would have been screaming my head off if I had been in her shoes. She has long said she envies the discussion boards we have here, and would have LOVED to have had them when she was a new mom. I think if anything I have it easier than her because I feel safe to complain about the struggles of motherhood without feeling judged, I can work or not work and right now I am going to start working and my DH is going to stay home which would have been unheard of a generation ago. Like others have said let's not romanticize history, maybe the upper white class stayed home, but who says their kids are better for it and where do you think the term "wet nurse" came from. And my grandmother was "weird" for breastfeeding her children. We are not back then and in anyone else's shoes so lets not presume to know what it is like.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

My understanding of Sarah's post was entirely different to those above. I understood it to mean that we have become a society of greed and dissatisfaction, for one. And for two, she mentioned more about how mothers can be happy with so little in other cultures more than history of our own culture.

The fact that we are disjointed as a community. We don't know our neighbours, yet our loved ones are miles away. We don't band together like they did in my mother's day. She had neighbours who were all also SAHM and they spent their days together. Not all of our mother's remember it like this, but more do in that era than we do now.

I think it is a case of for every great progression we achieved, we lost a little of the good from past generations. Family seems to be coming second to career now more than ever. My own experience had me going through terrible "me" withdrawals, that my mother said she never had. She never had great career expectations, so she never felt its loss. On the other hand, I loved my career, and will return one day. In the meantime, I work minimally, rely on my husband mostly, and work around my children instead of despite them.

We live minimally, and have had many blessings, so I am never judging of other's circumstances and choices, that is not my point. My point is along the lines of Sarah's and that is that it is a shame our culture has removed itself so far from minimalistic and natural to the point where mothers have NO CHOICE but to be away from their children. No mother should have that choice taken from them. If they want to work, yay. If they want to stay home, yay. But what about if they want to stay home - but can't? No yay there, is there?

Unless your career of choice is plowing a field where you can sling bubs on your back and get on with it, how can we fulfill our AP desires and move on with life as a working mother in this culture? It is very hard. I think her point was brilliant, and in favour of both working moms and stay at home moms, but against society for placing such demands on us.


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