# Do you think its appropriate for an 11 year old to get any body part waxed?



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

I have heard of young girls getting cody parts waxed lately.

I think this is sad that already young girl is feeling like her body needs modification.. I would rather try and build up this girls self esteem rather than encourage her to change herself, or to think of herself as "wrong" in some way. What are your thoughts? About waxing, please. Not about whether or not their should be a poll on this


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## chersolly (Aug 29, 2004)

If the girl has odd facial hair, yeah, I'd support waxing or tweezing. It's easier to pluck a few strays then to have to deal with ridicule in school.


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## JustVanessa (Sep 7, 2005)

My little sister is very very hairy and she started waxing eyebrows and legs in grade 6 when other kids started making fun of her. So yeah I say that if they want to....got for it.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

I started (secretly) shaving my legs at that age. I have really dark hair and was being teased at school so I grabbed my Moms razor from the edge of the tub one day and did it. She found out (walked in on me actually) and boy did I catch hell! Got the whole "you'll be sorry....hair will be thicker.....now youll have to do it all the time" speech









I guess what I am getting at is that it is a relatively minor, reversable thing that made a big difference in my self confidence and self esteem. I can't see anything wrong with waxing at that age either if positive results come of it









At the same time, I do agree that it is sad that a girl would think she "needs" alteration, but I can understand where she is comming from. If it was my daughter and she wanted to do it, I would support her.

Take care,
Tara


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Cosmetic waxing ~ no!

As previously posted, if it was for the childs 'emotional well being' ~ Yes.

Then again, I know girls now days that are shaving their pits and legs at 9 yrs old.

I would not let my daughter shave at 9.
When I was a child my mother always said I could shave when I started my period.. so for 12 years I had THE hairest legs in gradeschool.
Ironicly enough, I dont shave now







I am proud of my hairy legs (I do shave a few times a year.)


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think preteens are old enough to know if they want facial (or leg) hair removed or not, and have a basic understanding of what's involved in hair removal. Would I encourage my child to have waxing at age 11? Absolutely not- I intend to gently encourage my girls to embrace their body hair when it starts to grow, but I will allow my girls to shave or wax (and make sure they do so safely) if they want to.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

thanks for all your replies. I guess it just really saddens me that women in general think that their hair is "wrong" but now young girls, I mean 1 1 really is still a child, think that their bodies are not okay jsut the way they are. Its a shame that anyone would make a girl feel bad about her body hair (meaning other students, etc). I wonder if "hairiness" is treated differently in cultures where even the grown women are more natural about it...


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Honestly, it's none of my business.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chersolly*
If the girl has odd facial hair, yeah, I'd support waxing or tweezing. It's easier to pluck a few strays then to have to deal with ridicule in school.

I agree with this. But I think it is very sad that girls this young are already teasing one another over things like this. Girls this age shouldn't care, KWIM?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

No, Self confidence and self-esteem are more important to me than the rare chance of ridicule. I want my children to be able to be loved for who they are not what they look like.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I think preteens are old enough to know if they want facial (or leg) hair removed or not, and have a basic understanding of what's involved in hair removal. Would I encourage my child to have waxing at age 11? Absolutely not- I intend to gently encourage my girls to embrace their body hair when it starts to grow, but I will allow my girls to shave or wax (and make sure they do so safely) if they want to.









:


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Do I think they *Should* wax, not necessarilly. Do I think it's fine for them to wax? Sure.

Kids get teased about all sorts of things and I think if a minor cosmetic fix, such as waxing, can change that, what's the big deal? It's not like they're getting breast implants at 11 years old. It's no different than wearing mascara.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Here is an interesting article I found...
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_012.html

Quote:

notes that Greek statues of women in antiquity had no pubic hair, suggesting that hairlessness was some sort of ideal of feminine beauty embedded in Western culture.

Quote:

If so, a lot of Western culture never got the message. Greek women today (and Mediterranean women generally) do not shave their hair. The practice has been confined largely to English-speaking women of North America and Great Britain, although one hears that it's slowly spreading elsewhere.


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## BlueNote (May 19, 2006)

I feel that allowing her this is respecting her feelings. She is a person with wants and needs and eyebrow waxing is such a little thing. I understand people not wanting to kowtow to the establishment and such, but why push this at the expense of a child's self esteem? At some point, she may change her mind and quit waxing/shaving/whatever all together. But until then, make it her choice, not your choice for her.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
Honestly, it's none of my business.

I asked only for opinions on whether or not the waxing is appropriate. I specifically asked that you not comment on whether or not the poll was okay. Thanks


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

no, i dont thinks its appropriate to wax........if shes got a monobrow then some plucking, but i think thats to adult for an 11yr old.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Do I think they *Should* wax, not necessarilly. Do I think it's fine for them to wax? Sure.

Kids get teased about all sorts of things and I think if a minor cosmetic fix, such as waxing, can change that, what's the big deal? It's not like they're getting breast implants at 11 years old. It's no different than wearing mascara.

I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.

Question for the mamas who think its okay...do you yoruself modify your eyebrows, or wax/shave other parts of your bodies?

I can understand a girl wanting to wax if she is particularly hairy, it just mostly makes me sad that we live in a society that makes someone feel like they need to wax at all, especially a child.


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Nope. Not at all, given no additional information. But ita that if she has a very unusual amount of hair then it would be ok. I don't think it's appropriate for children to dye their hair either (other than fun or funky colors--green or purple is cool, but to try improve on nature to make it more 'beautiful' would be odd), but in the case of a child going very prematurely grey I can sympathize wanting to cover that up.


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I asked only for opinions on whether or not the waxing is appropriate. I specifically asked that you not comment on whether or not the poll was okay. Thanks









I never said it wasn't OK for you to do a poll. That is also none of my business.







I was just answering you question. Your welcome.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.

ITA. A self-confident person won't give a flying hoot what others 'see'.


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
ITA. A self-confident person won't give a flying hoot what others 'see'.

Yeah, you're right. But they might give a flying hoot about what they see.


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## BlueNote (May 19, 2006)

BUT, it also is totally part of personal expression. For example, my 4 year old son wants to have long hair and dress in pink. I don't have a problem with that.

My daughter, OTOH, wanted her hair short. It's what she wants. And validating that choice is validating her as a person.

My two year old son doesn't want his hair cut, so we don't.

This 11 year old girl/woman (and that is what they are) is trying to find herself. Allowing experimentation within set parameters is allowing her to make her own choices, thereby making herself more confident, more able to withstand pressure later.

This is a LITTLE thing. Modifying your body is part of all cultures. To push the "you're beautiful no matter what" on an 11 year old who may not feel that way is just running over her feelings and not recognizing her for a sovereign being.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't think it is inappropriate.
If the child is concerned about excess facial or body hair than I think as a parent you should give your child the options and respect the child's right to choose. It isn't surgery. I don't feel removing facial or body hair by waxing or tweezing is different than a hair cut.

If my dd told me that she wanted to remove some hair I'd take her concerns seriously and talk to her about it. I'd let her know that if she wanted to do that then there are some options. I'd explain the options and let her decide. If my dd never wants to shave or wax I'll be supportive of that too.


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

I don't have a problem with an 11 year old waxing or shaving. By the time I was 11 I looked like bigfoot, and I shaved regularly. I didn't start plucking/waxing my brows until much later but I never got teased about it either.

I just got tired of looking like I had small woodland creatures living on my forehead.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.

Question for the mamas who think its okay...do you yoruself modify your eyebrows, or wax/shave other parts of your bodies?

I can understand a girl wanting to wax if she is particularly hairy, it just mostly makes me sad that we live in a society that makes someone feel like they need to wax at all, especially a child.

Well, I guess I disagree. I started plucking my eyebrows when I was 11 or 12. That didn't lead to me needing to modify the rest of my body in any way that I'd not have done otherwise. I mean, yes I dye my hair and I cut my hair and I sometimes wear make up and when I feel like it I shave my legs, armpits and bikini area. Would those things not have happened had I never plucked my eyebrows?

I get teased because I have hairy arms, but I've never thought "hey, maybe I should wax them!"

I don't see anything wrong with being pretty and feeling pretty. I don't think that we should feel like we have to play dress up and shave and wax, but I don't think that we should be made to feel like we're shallow human beings if we do either.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Its her hair, she can remove it if she wants.


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## LISSA~K (Jun 30, 2005)

I voted no, them I started to think about mustache waxing. At 11 it might be an issue if it is an issue, kwim?


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## pumpkinsmama (Aug 20, 2005)

I got my eyebrows waxed around 16. Way later than I should have been allowed. It doesn't help your self image to be made fun of by all your peers, no matter how supportive your parents are.

I do think it was good to have the experience of getting them waxed first, it meant I didn't have to figure out how to shape them myself by plucking. (Which I pictured as a little off this side... little off that... even it up... little off that side... oops no more eyebrows type of experience.

I would let my daughter rid herself of body hair/ scalp hair at any age. Even younger. By denying her the choice I would be telling her that it her hair is more important to me than her feelings about the issue and creating esteem issues. IYKWIM. (BTW, don't have a daughter yet... but one day!)


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

okay... i totally understand why some girls would want to wax. And I understand letting themas well. It just makes me sad that young girls already feel this need to conform to a certain standatd of beauty. thats all.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

If my daughter asks me or tells me about it, I would definetely say it's ok. I wax myself and have since I was about 12.


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## BlueNote (May 19, 2006)

I agree that it is sad, but that is the way of the world and it has been for as long as there has been humans on this Earth. We want to look like others we find attractive. It changes from generation to generation. Plump women were considered attractive at some point. Then uber skinny. Now people are finding women with curves attractive again.







Such is life.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I got my brows waxed back in middle school and still do. I enjoy it. If my dc wants to, that's their choice.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

If she wants her eyebrows waxed, I would support her decision. It will grow back. However, if she told me she wanted the hair removed permanently by electrolysis, no way no how, she's too young to make a permanenet decision like that.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I wonder if you all would object if this was a boy starting to shave....modify his body.....

I think it is sexist to say no for girls to remove hair but a boy changing into a man is expected to. If you don't think boys aren't expected to shave you need to hang around boys more often. They get teased fiercely about facial hair and changing body and they have societial expectations.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

I don't see an issue w/ it. I waxed about that age and still do, and I haven't run off and done an modifications for purely cosmetic reasons. But then again I don't think waxing ones eyebrows is a body modification. I cut my hair and don't consider that a modification either. And I think that cutting hair and waxing are very similiar- one is just a bit more painful.

To me a body modification has to be perminate in some way.. piercing, tattooing, scarring, plastic surgery, etc.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I have three girls and I would let them wax their eyebrows if they wanted to when they were older.


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

If I thought for a second that my DD was being teased, then I would do something about it.
Full on waxing? Probably not.
Tweazing of eyebrows? Yup, why not? Girls can be mean.
I think what I have against the waxing is that it can look overdone and severe. While tweazing can look more subtle. KWIM?

Once she starts complaining about her leg/arm hair at 12/13, that is different. I'll take her for waxing, b/c I HATE shaving. It's cheaper/less painful-yes. But I HATE stubble!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

When I was 12, my good friend developed a unibrow, very thick, very uni & rather unusual looking. Her mother took her for eyebrow waxing, to get the area shaped, then after that, she would tweeze or wax, probably forever. For her, it was a major self-esteem booster. I see nothing wrong with it if that is what the girl wants. Permanent hair removal, on the other hand, should be an adult's choice, not a young girl's.

As for waxing just to shape a couple of pretty normal brows, I would think that was excessive, but the girl could always buy herself a cheap pair of tweezers and start tweezing. Perhaps it'd be easier to have her professional shaped.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I wonder if you all would object if this was a boy starting to shave....modify his body.....

I think it is sexist to say no for girls to remove hair but a boy changing into a man is expected to. If you don't think boys aren't expected to shave you need to hang around boys more often. They get teased fiercely about facial hair and changing body and they have societial expectations.

oh, I would totally let ds shave (if he has any hair) because I dont think those little hairs boys have when they're tweens-preteens look good at all.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I wonder if you all would object if this was a boy starting to shave....modify his body.....

I think it is sexist to say no for girls to remove hair but a boy changing into a man is expected to. If you don't think boys aren't expected to shave you need to hang around boys more often. They get teased fiercely about facial hair and changing body and they have societial expectations.


Um yes, at 11 I would feel the same...that it is sad that they already feel the pressure to conform.


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## PajamaMama (Dec 18, 2004)

I would not try to stop my dd from removing facial hair if she wanted to; nor would I try to stop a ds if I had one.

I do occasionally get my own eyebrows waxed. I pluck them between waxing to keep them cleaned up.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Not inappropriate at all. Do I think it's sad that other girls would tease a hairy girl? Absolutely. Do I think it's sad that the status of your body hair is such a big deal? Absolutely.

It's hard enough being a kid. Especially being a young girl. If there's something that is reasonable, that my child thinks will make her look or feel better, then I am all for it.

Today I don't give a frog's fanny what other people think about me. When I was 11, what other people (my parents, my friends, my teachers) mattered so much.

I still remember the sting of being teased in the 8th grade locker room for not shaving my legs. It went on for months, until I finally borrowed my dad's razor and shaved them. My mom would not let me shave, even though she shaved every day.


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

I have my eyebrows waxed as an adult but I believe children are children for such a short period of time. I will encourage my DD to stay young without worrying about adult behavior for as long as possible.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

My take on it is this. It is absolutely developmental appropriate fro preteens and teens to care what people think, whether it is hair, clothes, or attitude. It isn't just cultural, it is how our brain is wired because it is what helps us learn and experiment with in our cultural norms, learn how to become functioning adults in our culture. Whether we like it or not, there are norms we all conform to in order to survive in our culture (even sub-culture like AP/natural family living has a culture to it) whether it be waxing hair or living in a community. So for me, I don't think it is sad that a tween, either boy or girl, would experiment with hair removal as self expression. Ultimately, from a developmental stand point, this sort of tween thing is a great way to learn about social pressure and how to deal with it on one's own so that when a child is faced with an actual life changing decisions they can handle it and hopeful make a great choice for themselves. As a parent, I would allow my dd to wax if I felt she had really thought about it, weighed the pros and cons. It is my job to guide her not make decisions for her.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm pretty sure my daughter was waxing/plucking her eyebrows by then. I started waxing mine at 11 or 12, as I recall. The unibrow look is just not hip.

dar


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
Yeah, you're right. But they might give a flying hoot about what they see.

I disagree. Self-confident people do not have a need to conform to stereotypes.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

I agree with "It's her hair."

For me it's not that much different than wanting to dye her hair or get a funky cut. So long as it's easily reversible it's fine with me. If it turns out to be an expensive endeavor than we may have to work out a way for her to help pay, but I wouldn't forbid it.

I'm not going to battle over hair, no matter where on her, or his, body it's located.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I disagree. Self-confident people do not have a need to conform to stereotypes.

I've been an 11 year old girl and know a few. In my experience very few 11 year olds are self-confident to never feel the pressure to conform.

Isn't everything a stereotype? I'm pretty sure for every action, there is a sterotype that fits it. If I highlight my hair, am I conforming to the "soccer mom" stereotype? I drive mini van, same thing? I think breastfeeding and cosleeping are the only way for my family, am I conforming to the "AP" stereotype? If I get angry that women make less money than men, am I conforming to the "angry feminist" stereotype?


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

That is a decision I think I would feel my 11 year old would be qualified to make. That said, I would prefer if they were blessed with the confidence that I never had. I think expecting a younger person to be invincible to societal and cultural pressure is a little bit far fetched, but you can bet that I'll be doing what I can to support my son or daughter in speaking and acting in ways that are genuine for them.

It is only this year that I have felt comfortable enough with myself to wear what I want to wear, look how I look, and be as hairy as I'm meant to be. DP and I were at the lake this past weekend, and I had a sudden realization of what a relief it is to be fine with my hairy legs and pits, and to not care what other people might think. A real weight off my shoulders, as a person who has been overly concerned with being judged by my appearance for as long as I can remember.

I would like for my child to be able to bypass all of that anxiety, but I understand that that just might not be possible. I'm not going to force them at 11 to uphold ideals that I only started being comfortable with enacting at age 23!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
I've been an 11 year old girl and know a few. In my experience very few 11 year olds are self-confident to never feel the pressure to conform.

And that is truly sad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
Isn't everything a stereotype? I'm pretty sure for every action, there is a sterotype that fits it. If I highlight my hair, am I conforming to the "soccer mom" stereotype? I drive mini van, same thing? I think breastfeeding and cosleeping are the only way for my family, am I conforming to the "AP" stereotype? If I get angry that women make less money than men, am I conforming to the "angry feminist" stereotype?

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I think it is wrong to condone/encourage young girls to wax/pluck/tweeze/shave. It starts the whole 'body image' problems and really does cause a blow to their self-esteem/self-confidence.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

I was self confident enough to not start shaving my legs until i was 14, and as for my eyebrows, i didnt even know you could do anything to them until i was in a cosmetic chemisty and make up artistry class at 17.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Iwould let my dds wax thier eyebrows probably at a younger age than I would let them shave thier lags. M has normal eyebrows (a little shaping would lok nice but wouldn't change a lot) but Ls are like mine and extremely heavy. when i slack off the waxing they actually get in my line of vision. they are that kind of bush. My stylist does a very conservative natrual looking job of waxing and still takes over 2/3 of my eyebrow. I take care of my upper lip since it all has to go. Lily's eybrows are like mine except connected in the middle. poor baby. I wouldn't deny her this one little vanity. she als has the hairiest legs I have ever seen. and little pointy tufts of hair on top of her ears.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

and unlike shaving I think waxing/tweezing hurts enough that an 11 year old is likely to try it ansd decide life is too short for this crap







i askd M what she thought and she said she would if it didn't hurt but that it wasn't worth it to her since it hurts so much.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

My MIL's neighbor takes her 11 year old neice in to get her eyebrows done with her. I see nothing wrong with that.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I'm a little confused as to how to answer your poll. The thread title "Do you think it's appropriate ....ANY body part waxed." is a bit more open ended a question than "SHOULD 11 year old girls get their eyebrows waxed."

I have known some girls younger who in Jr high started bleaching their arm hair, as it was very thick and dark, or plucking the uni-brow. I have known girl that have back hair, dark hair at the small of their back that they were teased incessantly about. If my daughter came to me about wanting to wax her back hair, or arm hair, i think I would go ahead and let her. But I don't know that I can say yes to your poll that 11 year old girls SHOULD wax their eyebrows. Heck, I don't even wax my eyebrows.


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

I agree with BlueNote on this one. It's their body, they may have to deal witht the teasing or maybe it is just an expression of growing up. Maybe a way for them to take some steps toward adulthood. We don't have any more right to infringe on their self worth than the kids at school. To dismiss this kind of thing is to dismiss what they are feeling, make them feel out of control.

I don't think it's a big deal unless we make it one. Puberty is such a difficult age, it would be great if we all had the self confidence we have now back then, but really, most of us didn't. It's their road and we need to let them go down it!


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

My dd is only five so I don't know what exactly I would do by then

but I have a "pick you battles" attitude.

Waxing eyebrows..ok, I suppose
Tiny skirts and t-shirts that say "SUPER SEXY!!!" would not be ok at all.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
And that is truly sad.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I think it is wrong to condone/encourage young girls to wax/pluck/tweeze/shave. It starts the whole 'body image' problems and really does cause a blow to their self-esteem/self-confidence.

In my experience, not being "allowed" to shave caused more damage to my body image than if I had just shaved like everyone else. My self confidence would have been greatly improved if I had one less thing to worry about.

You're saying that self confident people don't need to conform to a stereotype, I'm saying that everything that people do is a stereotype for someone somewhere.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggi315*
maybe it is just an expression of growing up.

for my MIL's neighbor it is, she is absolutely stunning, she has long curly hair, looks like a young Halle Barry, is in cheer and kiarate and is a real sweet good girl. I'd say it's definitely not a self esteem issue with her. Personally I don't even think she needs to wax them, she does it mostly as a bonding thing with her aunt.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*

Question for the mamas who think its okay...do you yoruself modify your eyebrows, or wax/shave other parts of your bodies?


absolutely. and I am sooo glad my mom paid for me to go get my legs & underarms waxed every month when I expressed interest.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
In my experience, not being "allowed" to shave caused more damage to my body image than if I had just shaved like everyone else. My self confidence would have been greatly improved if I had one less thing to worry about.

You're saying that self confident people don't need to conform to a stereotype, I'm saying that everything that people do is a stereotype for someone somewhere.

No where did I say that it should be 'not allowed'. I am saying that a child who is raised to be self-confident will never even ask to shave/wax/tweeze.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I don't see an issue with it. It was never an issue for me, my body hair is super light and it looks like my arms are hairless. But I do have bushy eyebrows, I wax them when I can get to the salon. If my DD has bushy eyebrows I'd let her wax if it bugged her.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I've been shaving since I was 10 and I tweeze my brows. I trim off my personal hairs







and my arm hairs with a trimmer and just shave the rest of my body. I would wax but I'm too cheap to pay for it, DH's 5 blade razor works just fine haha


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
No where did I say that it should be 'not allowed'. I am saying that a child who is raised to be self-confident will never even ask to shave/wax/tweeze.

In my humble opinion, that's crap. Just because someone is self confident doesn't mean they will love everything on their body as is. I'm self confident, I'm very comfortable in my own skin. I still style my hair, shave, wear clothes that flatter my figure. That's not a lack of self confidence. It's a prefrence.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
In my humble opinion, that's crap. Just because someone is self confident doesn't mean they will love everything on their body as is. I'm self confident, I'm very comfortable in my own skin. I still style my hair, shave, wear clothes that flatter my figure. That's not a lack of self confidence. It's a prefrence.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
No where did I say that it should be 'not allowed'. I am saying that a child who is raised to be self-confident will never even ask to shave/wax/tweeze.

I'm going to have to disagree with this, at least as a person who finally does have self-confidence. I don't shave, because that is my preference. I don't dislike having hairy legs/pits, and I save a lot of time. I do pluck my eyebrows, because that is my preference. I do dislike the look and feel of my eyebrows unplucked. I do get my hair cut short, because that is my preference, in that I like the way it looks as opposed to longer, and regarding greater ease/comfort.

Self confidence can't be pinned down to what one does or doesn't do, but the reasons why they do or don't do things.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

In my humble opinion, that's crap. Just because someone is self confident doesn't mean they will love everything on their body as is. I'm self confident, I'm very comfortable in my own skin. I still style my hair, shave, wear clothes that flatter my figure. That's not a lack of self confidence. It's a prefrence.








:

I a self confident person who waxs my eyebrows but I do it because *I* like how it looks. I'm not to keen on shaving my legs or arm pits so I do it much more rarely and only when I feel like doing it. I'm not ashamed of anyone seeing my hairy legs ot pits.

Quote:

I am saying that a child who is raised to be self-confident will never even ask to shave/wax/tweeze.
This comment is a stereotype in itself. There are tons of girls/women out there with plenty of self confidence that choose to wax. Its rude to label those people as having no self confidence.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
In my humble opinion, that's crap. Just because someone is self confident doesn't mean they will love everything on their body as is.

Yes, they will. They will not see anything wrong with their body. They have no reason to modify/change it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
I'm self confident, I'm very comfortable in my own skin. I still style my hair, shave, wear clothes that flatter my figure. That's not a lack of self confidence. It's a preference.

Why do you 'prefer' to modify your body? To look 'good'? To look 'pretty'? To look 'different'?
IME, you wouldn't do any of the above if you truly loved/liked your body.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
Its rude to label those people as having no self confidence.

Lack of self-confidence in their bodies, then. Is that better?


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, they will. They will not see anything wrong with their body. They have no reason to modify/change it.

Why do you 'prefer' to modify your body? To look 'good'? To look 'pretty'? To look 'different'?
IME, you wouldn't do any of the above if you truly loved/liked your body.

I feel I am pretty confident- but I like my body to be a certain way. I like to keep it in shape. I know I would lose a lot of my confidence if I were overweight because I dont ever want to be overweight. I also have certain body parts that are not my favorites, but I have worked with what I was blessed with and have accepted myself as I am- which isnt the same as loving every single inch of my body without any questions. But I work with my body to keep my confidence up


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

This thread is going to go well.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

It's her body, she can remove the hair from it if she wishes.

Same if she wants peircings or tatoos. Well the tatoos, I'd have to make damn sure and get her to think real hard on the design because she'll have to live with it forever...but peircings? Her body her choice, she can always take the jewlery out and let it close over if she gets tired of it later.

It's not my place to tell another human being what to do with his/her body. I can let them know I dont approve of it, but it's their final decision.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I feel I am pretty confident- but I like my body to be a certain way. I like to keep it in shape. I know I would lose a lot of my confidence if I were overweight because I dont ever want to be overweight. I also have certain body parts that are not my favorites, but I have worked with what I was blessed with and have accepted myself as I am- which isnt the same as loving every single inch of my body without any questions. But I work with my body to keep my confidence up









ITA. But keeping in shape/keeping your body healthy are not the same as shaping your natural eyebrows to 'look' a certain way, or shaving your legs to keep from being teased.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

yes, that's true MITB but I dont know that I would like to be hairy?? I shave/wax because I dont like body hair.

OTOH, I can totally understand your POV. I have always wondered about people that have plastic/cosmetic surgery like a boob job, or a face lift, or a rhinoplasty, etc.. and say "I was totally self confident pre-surgery"







I don't really get that because if you're so confident, why did you change it?
I have struggled with this myself, my whole life I have wanted to get a rhinoplasty and I probably would if I had the money, but I have wondered if it's just best to work on my confidence instead of changing my body to meet the idea of what beauty means to me because of what I have learned from the world. kwim?


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, they will. They will not see anything wrong with their body. They have no reason to modify/change it.

Why do you 'prefer' to modify your body? To look 'good'? To look 'pretty'? To look 'different'?
IME, you wouldn't do any of the above if you truly loved/liked your body.

My self confidence doesn't lie in how I look. Do you brush your hair? Does that mean you're not self confident in how you look? Brushing your hair is modifying your appearance, right?

I don't think self confidence is the same thing as thinking you are perfect just as you are. I get the feeling that you think self conffidence=no room for improvement.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
OTOH, I can totally understand your POV. I have always wondered about people that have plastic/cosmetic surgery like a boob job, or a face lift, or a rhinoplasty, etc.. and say "I was totally self confident pre-surgery"







I don't really get that because if you're so confident, why did you change it?
I have struggled with this myself, my whole life I have wanted to get a rhinoplasty and I probably would if I had the money, but I have wondered if it's just best to work on my confidence instead of changing my body to meet the idea of what beauty means to me because of what I have learned from the world. kwim?

i agree........i hate people like that...........especially boob job and lipo ones......they are like "oh i love my body just the way it is!" and yet they still get a boob job or lipo. which obviously shows they didn't.

I shave my legs and underarms because..........after a while it gets annoying and itchy LOL but i have to either wear a strapless top or my legs start itching before i shave or realise i need to again.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I think it is wrong to condone/encourage young girls to wax/pluck/tweeze/shave. It starts the whole 'body image' problems and really does cause a blow to their self-esteem/self-confidence.

No one said anything about condoning/encouraging it. They are talking about allowing a girl to choose for herself. Allowing my dd to make decisions like that is part of her growing up, and if she chooses to do so, then great. Providing a safe environment for her not to sneak around and do it is vital to me.

And dd is almost 12, and shaves her pitsand has shaved her legs. Her choice to do when she wants. She is well aware it is a personal choice and totally up to her wether she shaves or leaves it.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer3141*
children are children for such a short period of time. I will encourage my DD to stay young without worrying about adult behavior for as long as possible.


well put


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
My self confidence doesn't lie in how I look. Do you brush your hair? Does that mean you're not self confident in how you look? Brushing your hair is modifying your appearance, right?

No, brushing your hair is hygenic and safety related.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
I don't think self confidence is the same thing as thinking you are perfect just as you are. I get the feeling that you think *self confidence=no room for improvement*.

I am of the camp that believes the human body is beautiful in all it's differences. There is no such thing as "improvement" when it comes to waxing/shaving/plucking.
It's like saying the junky car will run better if only it looks better. That is not true. It will still not run well.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum*
i agree........i hate people like that...........especially boob job and lipo ones......they are like "oh i love my body just the way it is!" and yet they still get a boob job or lipo. which obviously shows they didn't.

I shave my legs and underarms because..........after a while it gets annoying and itchy LOL but i have to either wear a strapless top or my legs start itching before i shave or realise i need to again.

If you let it grow long enough, it really doesn't itch


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

This is an interesting and timely (for me) topic, as my 4 year old has been asking me about the hair that just started growing on her legs, and asking a few questions about shaving.

First of all, I have to respectfully disagree w/MITB's assertion that a self-confident person will have no need to do anything to change his/her body. My DH is one of the most self-confident people I know and he has a helluva unibrow, which he plucks because he knows he looks better with two brows as opposed to one.

I also think this argument is a little (although not entirely) like the abstinence one - teens *should* abstain from sex. Kids *should* have self-confidence and not want to tinker with their body hair. Sure, yeah, ideally, they should! But not allowing a child who wants to rid herself of bodyhair to do so in the name of instilling self-confidence does not strike me as the best approach.

I am of english descent and am pretty hairless. My arms look bald and what little hair there is is blonde and fine. Legs a little hairier but not much so. I have never thought much about my body or facial hair (and lackadasically shave when I feel like it) but from my friends who are hairier I know excess facial, etc hair can be very distressing for some. DD is going to be a hairy one, I can tell, since she seems to have inherited this trait from my italian and very hirsuite (sp?!) DH. I have already decided that I will gently encourage her to accept her body and its variations as normal and beautiful, but I'll give her free reign to shave or otherwise remove hair from whatever age feels right for her.

Not sure I'd support an 11 year old getting a brazilian, however . . .







:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
No one said anything about condoning/encouraging it. They are talking about allowing a girl to choose for herself. Allowing my dd to make decisions like that is part of her growing up, and *if she chooses to do so*, *then great*. Providing a safe environment for her not to sneak around and do it is vital to me.

See, if my dd chose to do so, I would not think it was "great". I would think it was "great" if she chose not to and chose instead to love/like her body the way it was made.

I would also really question why my dc would need to sneak around. That would signal to me an unhealthy behavior.

If my dd did decide to shave/wax I wouldn't stop her, but I would have a talk with her about why she is choosing to do so.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

MamaInTheBoonies said:


> I am of the camp that believes the human body is beautiful in all it's differences. There is no such thing as "improvement" when it comes to waxing/shaving/plucking.QUOTE]
> 
> This is exactly my point. Why wouldn't a mama encourage her daughter that her body IS perfect, rather thatn going down the whole waxing plucking,shaving road? I guess it also begs the question, for grown women, why are YOU shaving, etc? If you say that you like the way it looks, I wonder why you like the way it looks? Don't you think you've been dconditioned to like the way it looks?
> 
> ...


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

its slightly OT but monique (the AA comedian) doesnt shave her legs!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

And is that the conditioning you really want to encourage in your daughters?
Excelent question.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

No, brushing your hair is hygenic and safety related.
How about cutting or coloring one's hair? If you do it in a way that it is fashionable does that mean you have no self confidence? Because really how different is cutting compared to waxing, both processes get rid of unwanted hair in a non perminate way.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

sometimes cutting your hair is health related, eg i have thick hair, if it gets to long i get migranes.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
How about cutting or coloring one's hair? If you do it in a way that it is fashionable does that mean you have no self confidence? Because really how different is cutting compared to waxing, both processes get rid of unwanted hair in a non perminate way.

Fashionable is a nice way of saying 'conforming'. Again, if you feel the need to cut your hair or style it to be 'fashionable', then yes, I would dare say you are lacking in self-confidence in your body image. I am not saying that one has NO self-confidence, but that it is not strong.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
yes, that's true MITB but I dont know that I would like to be hairy?? I shave/wax because I dont like body hair.

OTOH, I can totally understand your POV. I have always wondered about people that have plastic/cosmetic surgery like a boob job, or a face lift, or a rhinoplasty, etc.. and say "I was totally self confident pre-surgery"







I don't really get that because if you're so confident, why did you change it?
I have struggled with this myself, my whole life I have wanted to get a rhinoplasty and I probably would if I had the money, but I have wondered if it's just best to work on my confidence instead of changing my body to meet the idea of what beauty means to me because of what I have learned from the world. kwim?

I'm self confident and plan on getting breast implants after my children are done nursing. It has nothing to do with boosting my confidence and everything to do with wanting to A)look better (which is not the same as I won't be confident unless my breasts are bigger) and B) to help my clothes fit better. After having kids and nursing my breasts, which started out as perfectly wonderful perky things, turned into pancakes. Long, floppy pancakes. If you don't mind your breasts looking like that, great. Don't alter them. I, however, don't. I think they look weird. I plan to fill them back up to their prepregnancy size and I plan to be able to walk around in the summer time in halter tops and spaghetti strap dresses w/o worrying.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Maybe it's my age or something, but waxing seems weird to me. I have never in my entire life waxed any part of my body, nor do I intend to. It just sounds painful and miserable. Nobody waxed when I was younger. I guess it's coming to be a common thing, even around here in the small-town midwest. But waxing just seems extreme to me. If a kid wanted to pluck a few heavy hairs or something, I don't think I'd object. But for some reason, waxing sounds so much more extreme. Showing my age now... LOL! Is that weird or do others think there's any difference waxing or plucking/shaving?

Just the thought of waxing makes me shudder...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum*
sometimes cutting your hair is health related, eg i have thick hair, if it gets to long i get migranes.

It can also be work-related. I know that some hunting people who cut or shave their hair so as not to get it entangled with the brush. Even present day jobs require short hair....I know I was declined a job in food service because I refused to cut my hair.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Fashionable is a nice way of saying 'conforming'. Again, if you feel the need to cut your hair or style it to be 'fashionable', then yes, I would dare say you are lacking in self-confidence in your body image. I am not saying that one has NO self-confidence, but that it is not strong.


LOL I dyed my hair bright red, blue, purple, orange, pink, you name it I wouldn't call it "Fasionable" I call it "Hey I am an eclectic person and I want my outward appearance to reflect that"

Had NOTHING to do with conforming.

I dye my hair a nice burgendy now. Why? *I* Like it. *I* do it because *I* Feel *I* Look much nicer with it than the hair that is field mouse coloured. I dont care if other people dont like it, I'm not doing it for them I'm doing it for *ME* MYSELF...no one else. I'm not a "Plain" person by personality therefore I really dont think I should "LOOK" plain. My outward appearance reflects who I am. Sure beats catching people by suprise about my odd personality and them going "OMG you suck" At least my eclectic outward appearance gives them fair warning that I'm an oddball. Call it....outward warning. If they can't get past it and want to get to know me, then they aren't worth it.

*I* Shave because *I* dont like the texture of hair on my legs. I really have a problem with it. Kinda like how I hate wet cotton on my skin, I hate the feel of hair on my legs and in my armpits. Drives me batty when the wind blows it...sometimes the battyness gets to me and I start gouging to get rid of it...Yeah...sensory issues gotta love it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
I plan to be able to walk around in the summer time in halter tops and spaghetti strap dresses w/o worrying.

You should check out my bikini thread.









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=bikini


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
LOL I dyed my hair bright red, blue, purple, orange, pink, you name it I wouldn't call it "Fasionable" I call it "Hey I am an eclectic person and I want my outward appearance to reflect that"

Had NOTHING to do with conforming.

ITA. I don't put 'coloring one's hair' in the same category as waxing/shaving. To me, it's in the same category as wearing a bright pink skirt with an ugly orange top.







Using colors has always been around in many animal kingdoms.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You should check out my bikini thread.









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=bikini

OK, again, it's not about the way I look. It's about the way the clothes fit. I DO wear bikini's now, because I have the breasts to fill out the top. I even wore them in between kids with my pancake breasts but I am constantly having to adjust them because I end up with this hollow at the top where my breasts have migrated downward. THEY DON'T FIT PROPERLY. Finding halter tops and spaghetti straps that fit is even more difficult. I can't wear empire waists because my breasts end up UNDER the waist line. I want to wear clothes that I like. I am a size 5. I can't buy a size 5 dress because the top will ALWAYS be too big for my chest. I can't buy dresses off the rack and wear them. They just don't fit properly. My sewing skills are not so fantastic that I can alter one part of the dress to fit me and I don't have any desire to take every article of clothing that I like to a pro to be altered. I'm perfectly happy and content in my decision to get breast implants. I decided when I was 16 that I was getting them. I turn 30 next month. I'm not a child making a rash decision and I won't entertain any idea that I'm an idiot for doing so.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
ITA. I don't put 'coloring one's hair' in the same category as waxing/shaving. To me, it's in the same category as wearing a bright pink skirt with an ugly orange top.







Using colors has always been around in many animal kingdoms.

and I dont wax/shave to comform either. Sensory issue with me. I also keep my hair short and wear hats/scarves whatever during windy days.

I shave my legs/armpits because I can't stand the feeling of hair moving/rubbing/blowing in the breeze. It drives me up the wall in a similar fasion that wet cloth on my skin does. (except momma cloth because that area doesn't get cold and clammy like lets say a wet Tshirt)

Right now I'm all stubbley..and It's irking me to no end....I just have to have my skin smooth or I go out of my skull with irritation and annoyance...coupled with possible gouging because it feels so ICK to me..

Total sensory issue with me...not body issue...Trust me if I could afford to get electrolosis everywhere except my head and eyebrows, I so would...because the feeling just drives me up the wall!


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
OK, again, it's not about the way I look. It's about the way the clothes fit. I DO wear bikini's now, because I have the breasts to fill out the top. I even wore them in between kids with my pancake breasts but I am constantly having to adjust them because I end up with this hollow at the top where my breasts have migrated downward. THEY DON'T FIT PROPERLY. Finding halter tops and spaghetti straps that fit is even more difficult. I can't wear empire waists because my breasts end up UNDER the waist line. I want to wear clothes that I like. I am a size 5. .


ooooh Breasticles!

No worries, I want to get a lift/possible reduction when I'm done having children.

Reduction = for my health...they are just TOO big...and they hurt my back/posture, not to mention I have mild upper back scoliosis...only reason why I DIDNT get a reduction yet is because I so firmly believe in breast feeding, that a few short years of discomfort for the benefit of my children is important. Once I'm done though (after this child) I'm going under and getting a cup or two reduced....My back just kills me no matter what kind of support I have keeping the girls up...


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

No worries, I want to get a lift/possible reduction when I'm done having children.

Reduction = for my health...they are just TOO big...and they hurt my back/posture, not to mention I have mild upper back scoliosis...only reason why I DIDNT get a reduction yet is because I so firmly believe in breast feeding, that a few short years of discomfort for the benefit of my children is important. Once I'm done though (after this child) I'm going under and getting a cup or two reduced....My back just kills me no matter what kind of support I have keeping the girls up...
I could have written that myself. The day I finish bfing my last child I'll be getting a consult to get a reduction, it's my gift to myself. I totally look forward tot he day when I can buy shirts that fir ME and not just my chest. I have to buy everything a size or two bigger to fit up to and it makes the rest of me look frumpy.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
I could have written that myself. The day I finish bfing my last child I'll be getting a consult to get a reduction, it's my gift to myself. I totally look forward tot he day when I can buy shirts that fir ME and not just my chest. I have to buy everything a size or two bigger to fit up to and it makes the rest of me look frumpy.

Yeah the clothing thing is a bit of an issue..but I never cared that much about clothes anyway. It's my back health that concerns me the most. Even if I had core muscles of steel there's no way that my back can properly support these puppies...

*sigh*

I dont want to be a folded over barbie doll when I get old and grey..


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If my dd did decide to shave/wax I wouldn't stop her, but I would have a talk with her about why she is choosing to do so.

I don't see how that's so different from what anyone else is advocating.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
This is exactly my point. Why wouldn't a mama encourage her daughter that her body IS perfect, rather thatn going down the whole waxing plucking,shaving road?

I fully plan to encourage my son or daughter that they are as good as anyone else, no matter what their appearance is. What I'm not willing to do is control what they do with their bodies in spite of the confidence that I've tried to instill, encourage and support. Letting a DD choose to wax/shave/what-have-you is not the opposite of encouraging her that she's perfect as is.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't think natural equals better. My body naturally does lots of things that I interfere with somehow. I think it is natural to do what makes me feel good and happy.
I shave because I prefer the way my body feels when my legs and underarms are smooth. I feel cleaner and lighter. I do it even if no one else sees those body parts - and many days they do not.
I cut the hair on my head short because it feels good that way. It might look better longer and be more natural to some people. I've had it longer but this is the length I prefer and feel my best.
I went until my mid 20's without touching my eyebrows ever and then had them waxed. I loved it. I think grooming my eyebrows makes me feel tidier and frames my eyes much better. Nothing to do with what a celebrity does with their body or what you feel about body hair.
I'm glad I have the freedom to choose for myself what happens to my body and lots of options to pick from.
My 6 year old dd sees me shave my legs and is asking me about it. She knows that everyone has hair on their bodies. I've told her that some people take the hair off and some people don't and we've talked about reasons why.
She is fine with her body. If she comes to me one day and wants to change something we'll talk about it. I can give her my opinion and giudance but it is her body. I will allow her the same choices I have even if her reasons are shallower than mine.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

Even if I had core muscles of steel there's no way that my back can properly support these puppies...
My back's a mess from mine. I was a horseback rider when I was younger and no matter how many different no bounce and super support bras I tried my breasts always bounced and caused more and more back pain. I had a reduction consult at 16 and the dr said that mine were bad enough to qualify to get my iinsurance to pay for the surgery, but when I found out there was a possiblity of it messing my nursing relationships up in the future I chose to wait.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
I don't see how that's so different from what anyone else is advocating.

So far, 64 people voted that Yes, an 11 year old should get her eyebrows waxed. I disagree and gave my reasons.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
I'm self confident and plan on getting breast implants after my children are done nursing. It has nothing to do with boosting my confidence and everything to do with wanting to A)look better (which is not the same as I won't be confident unless my breasts are bigger) and B) to help my clothes fit better. After having kids and nursing my breasts, which started out as perfectly wonderful perky things, turned into pancakes. Long, floppy pancakes. If you don't mind your breasts looking like that, great. Don't alter them. I, however, don't. I think they look weird. I plan to fill them back up to their prepregnancy size and I plan to be able to walk around in the summer time in halter tops and spaghetti strap dresses w/o worrying.

But why do breasts that have been used for their intended purpose look "weird" to you?


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
OK, again, it's not about the way I look. It's about the way the clothes fit. I DO wear bikini's now, because I have the breasts to fill out the top. I even wore them in between kids with my pancake breasts but I am constantly having to adjust them because I end up with this hollow at the top where my breasts have migrated downward. THEY DON'T FIT PROPERLY. Finding halter tops and spaghetti straps that fit is even more difficult. I can't wear empire waists because my breasts end up UNDER the waist line. I want to wear clothes that I like. I am a size 5. I can't buy a size 5 dress because the top will ALWAYS be too big for my chest. I can't buy dresses off the rack and wear them. They just don't fit properly. My sewing skills are not so fantastic that I can alter one part of the dress to fit me and I don't have any desire to take every article of clothing that I like to a pro to be altered. I'm perfectly happy and content in my decision to get breast implants. I decided when I was 16 that I was getting them. I turn 30 next month. I'm not a child making a rash decision and I won't entertain any idea that I'm an idiot for doing so.

I would rather encourage clothing manufacturers to desing clothes that fit real women, not alter my bidy to fit into somebodys image of what womens bodys look like.

did any of you look at that real breasts website?


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
So far, 64 people voted that Yes, an 11 year old should get her eyebrows waxed. I disagree and gave my reasons.









I didn't vote on the poll or look at how others voted. I think the question isn't as clear as it could be, so I'm taking my information about what participants think from their posts as opposed to poll numbers. If I had to vote, I would have voted yes, but only because I think it should be a choice, not because it would be something I would encourage! I would be surprised if 64 people actually thought that 11 year olds _shouldn't_ not wax. If that makes any sense.







:


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

On the breast reduction issue...my 16 year old has very large uncomfortable breasts. We have discussed this issue and I let her know that if she wanted reduction in the future, I would be supportive. She already has back problems, clothes do not fit, bra shopping is horrendous, and she just doesn't like them.

It's her body and she deserves to be comfortable in it. I also let her get her ears pierced a couple times, highlight her hair, etc.

I don't like waxing, did that once and thought "what kind of barbarian thought this up?" but if my daughter wanted to do it, I would respect her choices.

And I don't think that beauty rituals have to do with low self-esteem. I don't normally wear nail polish because of my job, but every once in a while, like a french manicure. And I dye my hair. And I don't think I have low self-esteem or am trying to conform. I do it for myself, because I like it, makes me feels good, and I think I look good!!!


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
did any of you look at that real breasts website?

I've looked at it more than once. If only there were some socially acceptable way to spread that kind of information publicly! I was so saddened to realize how difficult it is to get a sense of what variety there is to the human breast. For me, I've pretty much only been exposed to my own, and those in media. Anyway, that's a great, great site that I hope is still around when/if I have a DD. Do you happen to have the link?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
But why do breasts that have been used for their intended purpose look "weird" to you?

It's not about looking WIERD, it's about wanting her clothes to fit properly.

What's wrong with wanting clothing to fit properly? seriously? She can't really go around nude ya know


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

she used the word weird in her post...thats why i put qoutes around it.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

here is the breast website again.

http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery.php


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*
I don't think natural equals better. My body naturally does lots of things that I interfere with somehow. I think it is natural to do what makes me feel good and happy.
I shave because I prefer the way my body feels when my legs and underarms are smooth. I feel cleaner and lighter. I do it even if no one else sees those body parts - and many days they do not.
I cut the hair on my head short because it feels good that way. It might look better longer and be more natural to some people. I've had it longer but this is the length I prefer and feel my best.
I went until my mid 20's without touching my eyebrows ever and then had them waxed. I loved it. I think grooming my eyebrows makes me feel tidier and frames my eyes much better. Nothing to do with what a celebrity does with their body or what you feel about body hair.
I'm glad I have the freedom to choose for myself what happens to my body and lots of options to pick from.
My 6 year old dd sees me shave my legs and is asking me about it. She knows that everyone has hair on their bodies. I've told her that some people take the hair off and some people don't and we've talked about reasons why.
She is fine with her body. If she comes to me one day and wants to change something we'll talk about it. I can give her my opinion and giudance but it is her body. I will allow her the same choices I have even if her reasons are shallower than mine.

I like your POV. I feel very similar to how you feel. I dye my hair, because I have 5 grey hairs in the front of my head (I'm 22, lol) but I won't leave my house with grey hair, never ever ever. lol. and I wear make up, I shave/wax and feel cleaner, lighter, and I wax/pluck eye brows as needed, to give my eyes a nice frame, but that's it. I actually ENJOY doing all of this. It's MY time (gosh, I sound like the botox commercial, lol) and I always laugh about dd and me, when I'm 60 and she's 44 we'll probably be doing girl dates going to the doctors to get botox







not really, I dont like the way botox looks on a lot of people, but if I ever have the money and WANT to do something that will make me feel better about it, I'll do it.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
It's not about looking WIERD, it's about wanting her clothes to fit properly.

What's wrong with wanting clothing to fit properly? seriously? She can't really go around nude ya know

about the clothing, i will say it again,...why not encourage clothing manufactureres.designers to make cloths that fit women with real breasts, instead of changing ones body to fit the clothes...come onm thats a little messed up dont you think?

cut my body or cut some fabric...hmmmm.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
I didn't vote on the poll or look at how others voted. I think the question isn't as clear as it could be, so I'm taking my information about what participants think from their posts as opposed to poll numbers. If I had to vote, I would have voted yes, but only because I think it should be a choice, not because it would be something I would encourage! I would be surprised if 64 people actually thought that 11 year olds _shouldn't_ not wax. If that makes any sense.







:









Yeah, I posted the same thing above, but it was ignored. I feel the wording of the question is a little convoluted, and the options are not really working for me.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
I've looked at it more than once. If only there were some socially acceptable way to spread that kind of information publicly! I was so saddened to realize how difficult it is to get a sense of what variety there is to the human breast. For me, I've pretty much only been exposed to my own, and those in media. Anyway, that's a great, great site that I hope is still around when/if I have a DD. Do you happen to have the link?

I've seen A LOT of breasts in my day, from young women (friends, family, at the gym) to elderly women (I was a caregiver for years) and I have to say that site is a little skewed towards non normal breasts. I honestly can say many of the shapes of breasts I had never seen before.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
Yeah, I posted the same thing above, but it was ignored. I feel the wording of the question is a little convoluted, and the options are not really working for me.

okay..i'm sorry about the conoluted poll..but is thee a way to even change a poll, and is it even fair to change it now that some voted already? I wasn't ignoring you , I just wasn't sure how to respond....and I'm not being snarky now either. Do you think I should change the poll?

also, I still think people are answering even if they don't like thae actual poll, i really just wanted to get peoples opionions on the subject, and i have


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
I've seen A LOT of breasts in my day, from young women (friends, family, at the gym) to elderly women (I was a caregiver for years) and I have to say that site is a little skewed towards non normal breasts. I honestly can say many of the shapes of breasts I had never seen before.

i don't know what tos ay abotu the elderly womens breasts you saw, but maybe women with really "unusual" (for lack of a better term, breasts, don't feel comfortable undressing in the gym locker room....


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
I've seen A LOT of breasts in my day, from young women (friends, family, at the gym) to elderly women (I was a caregiver for years) and I have to say that site is a little skewed towards non normal breasts. I honestly can say many of the shapes of breasts I had never seen before.

and also, i think there was a nice mix of breasts, there were lots of what one might call "average" breasts.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
i don't know what tos ay abotu the elderly womens breasts you saw, but maybe women with really "unusual" (for lack of a better term, breasts, don't feel comfortable undressing in the gym locker room....

Yeah maybe, a GF of mine once had a B cup and a D cup, but she liked it that way. I thought it was awesome how she embraced her unique body.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
okay..i'm sorry about the conoluted poll..but is thee a way to even change a poll, and is it even fair to change it now that some voted already? I wasn't ignoring you , I just wasn't sure how to respond....and I'm not being snarky now either. Do you think I should change the poll?

also, I still think people are answering even if they don't like thae actual poll, i really just wanted to get peoples opionions on the subject, and i have









There is a way to change it, but I don't know if you want to bother now. I wouldn't go by the numbers though, just read the posts. Someone said that 60 people thought 11 year olds should wax their eyebrows, and I think we can all agree from reading the posts that just is not true.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
about the clothing, i will say it again,...why not encourage clothing manufactureres.designers to make cloths that fit women with real breasts, instead of changing ones body to fit the clothes...come onm thats a little messed up dont you think?

cut my body or cut some fabric...hmmmm.

This isnt realistic. Everyone is so different that it is impossible to clothing manufacturers to fit every breast perfectly. I make my own clothes and even I sometimes have a hard time with things fitting right on me. I personally am ok with that, but if others are not then I am not one to judge.

If my dds came to me wanting to wax and eyebrow or something of course I would suggest that they really think about it and encourage them to believe that they are beautiful however they are. BUT ultimately it is their body hair and their choice.

Further, every adult has preferences and is free to do as they please with their body. I don't shave my armpits in the winter but I often do in the summer, it has nothing to do with perception of me but everything to do with how I feel. Long armpit hair in the summer makes me feel sweaty and I tend to smell more....so I shave it. It has nothing to do with how confident I am or not.

I wonder how self confident you and MITB really are considering all the constant judging and criticism of others between the two of you. What does it say about you that you need to continuously put other women down, contiously criticize other mother's? Maybe you are lacking something in yourself.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I answered no. If there were extenuating circumstances which I don't currently see happening, I might reconsider. If she really wanted to at age 11 get her eyebrows waxed that's fine if that's what she wants to spend her allowance on. I wouldn't give her extra money to do it. I have to be honest though I tried plucking my eyebrows once when I was 14, way too painful. No idea why anyone does that to themselves and my eyebrows probably would look better plucked.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I don't think women who have small or average size breasts don't have "real breasts" they are just the norm. Most thin/average size women don't have a DD cup, they have a B or C cup. And even plus size clothes accomodate the larget breasts ie a size 2X shirt would fit a 40DD breasted woman just fine.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Like the above poster said, it's entirely unrealistic to assume that clothing manufacturers are going to hop up and change the way they make clothing any time in my lifetime. Not to mention, who are they going to change for? My breasts? The woman with the same waist size as me but huge breasts? I mean, they do make clothes that fit real women. I know plenty of real women that have no trouble finding clothes that fit them properly. I, however, am not one of them.

I have seen the website with all the breasts and as wonderful as it is to see all those women shedding their shirts and baring all proudly, it's still not what I'm talking about here. I really don't see any difference between my wanting to get breast implants so that I can fit into clothing that I like better and the women who lose weight for the same purpose. Even if we like ourselves exactly as we are there is no reason for us to feel badly about wanting to improve things that we think could use some improving.

And yes, I did say that I think my breasts post babies/nursing look wierd. If you saw my breasts you might think so too. Or maybe you'd think they looked just fine. Who knows. What I do know is that 15 years ago I had breasts that I liked. They have changed and look different than I want them to look at to me they look weird. If I saw the same breasts on another woman I don't know that I'd think they looked weird because it's how I've always seen them on that person. If I were to get into some sort of accident and ended up with a huge scar on my face I would think that looked weird too because it wasn't there before. I don't see anything wrong with thinking that after quite a bit of changing they look weird.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
I wonder how self confident you and MITB really are considering all the constant judging and criticism of others between the two of you. What does it say about you that you need to continuously put other women down, contiously criticize other mother's? Maybe you are lacking something in yourself.

I didn't read any posts putting women down. If a person feels put-down, that is a sign of low self-esteem/low self-confidence.

I see nothing wrong with questioning why mothers are okay conditioning their daughters to conform to unrealistic societal 'norms'.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

As a rather hairy person, I would permit an 11 year old to get a wax if she so desired one. Heck, if she wanted her upper lip done, I would be all for it. Unless you have experienced life as a very young girl with facial hair, I don't think you can fully understand how embarassing it is to have a moustache thicker than your older brother's or to have your eyebrows grow togther. It was a great boost to my positive feelings of myself to get this done.

It doesn't lead to modifying other body parts.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

It's much more appropriate to teach our daughters to be so anti-conformist that they spend their lives being the freak down the street.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I would rather encourage clothing manufacturers to desing clothes that fit real women, not alter my bidy to fit into somebodys image of what womens bodys look like.


This is completely impossible. Everyone is different. I'm tall, a size 8 in pants/waist/etc... but wear a 34DD bra. My wedding, my HS prom even, I wore separate skirt and top because any dress that fit my boobs I was swimming in from the waist down, anything that fit my butt and waist wouldn't zip past my boobs. One of my closest friend, is a size 12 and completely flat chested, she has the opposite trouble where tops look dumb on her because they sag at her chest.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
I'm perfectly happy and content in my decision to get breast implants. *I decided when I was 16 that I was getting them.* I turn 30 next month. *I'm not a child making a rash decision* and I won't entertain any idea that I'm an idiot for doing so.

So, you have held onto this since you were 16 years old. How can you say it is not a rash decision made by a child?
Why haven't you spent those years loving your breasts/body for what they are/have become?


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

I see nothing wrong with questioning why mothers are okay conditioning their daughters to conform to unrealistic societal 'norms'.
I don't think anyone here is advocating "conditioning" there dd to conform. I think what most people are saying is that if their dd came to them and truely wanted to wax they would allow it. Would I ask my dd or encourage her to do it? No, but it is her body and it's not perminate so why should I not allow it? Picking your battles is important.

We all do little things to make us feel more attractive (paint our nails, dye hair, or cut it in a particular way) weither it be by our own standards or societies. Why should I deny my dd that if she truely wants it?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
It's much more appropriate to teach our daughters to be so anti-conformist that they spend their lives being the freak down the street.

Wow! That is harsh. I don't think instilling a strong sense of self-confidence/self-worth creates a freak. Then again, this freak (me) loves shining bright.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

So, you have held onto this since you were 16 years old. How can you say it is not a rash decision made by a child?
How can you say that she hasn't spent the last 14 years meditating about if it is the right decision for her.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
Why should I deny my dd that if she truely wants it?

I never said to deny them their rights to their bodies. I did ask why not instill a sense of self-confidence in their body?
It seems to me that if I had my dd's eyebrows waxed at age 11, it would be a clear sign that I don't consider her to be attractive.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
So, you have held onto this since you were 16 years old. How can you say it is not a rash decision made by a child?
Why haven't you spent those years loving your breasts/body for what they are/have become?

Umm, because A) I became a parent at 15 years old, and a good parent, not some juvinile who was out acting like a child. And B) because I've done a ton of research and soul searching in the years since becoming a parent and have come to the reasonable decision that I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to safety pin my clothing together so that they fit me properly. I have not done it yet because I knew that I would have more children. Now that I am done having children I am looking at it more strongly. As an adult TODAY I can say that I do not like the way my breasts look. I do not like the way my clothing fits me.

I haven't spent the last 15 years hating my body. I don't cover up my body or hide in shame. I do love my body and what it's become. I also love my hair, but I change it whenever I see fit. That's much more cosmetic than getting my breasts done. I see getting my breasts done as a much more necessary issue than cutting and coloring my hair.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
I don't think women who have small or average size breasts don't have "real breasts" they are just the norm. Most thin/average size women don't have a DD cup, they have a B or C cup. And even plus size clothes accomodate the larget breasts ie a size 2X shirt would fit a 40DD breasted woman just fine.

I have to agree with this. I'm smaller, perhaps, than average, but I'm 5'3, 120-125ish normally (no idea how much I weigh right now) and a 34B.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
How can you say that she hasn't spent the last 14 years meditating about if it is the right decision for her.

I can't. That is why I asked the question.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Where's that peddling smile?


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Wow! That is harsh. I don't think instilling a strong sense of self-confidence/self-worth creates a freak. Then again, this freak (me) loves shining bright.









My kids all have a very strong sense of self-confidence and self-worth as well. They also cut/color their hair and shave their legs. I also put braces on them so that they had straight teeth.







: I let them do those things not because I think them unattractive otherwise, but because it's what they want to do and if they have a desire to fit in and not stick out like a sore thumb, who am I to tell them that they must? However, if they want to stick out like a sore thumb, great! Who am I to tell them that they can't? My kids shine brightly. "Conforming" to sociatal norms has not prevented that from happening.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
because I've done a ton of research and soul searching in the years since becoming a parent and have come to the reasonable decision that I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to safety pin my clothing together so that they fit me properly.

Why didn't you spend those years learning how to sew/design your own clothing? Seems less risky and more confident to design your own clothes than to alter your breasts to fit in pre-made clothes.

FWIW, I don't know how to sew, but my mom and Aunt do, and I have had them make my clothes, so, maybe I am used to it.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Why didn't you spend those years learning how to sew/design your own clothing? Seems less risky and more confident to design your own clothes than to alter your breasts to fit in pre-made clothes.

FWIW, I don't know how to sew, but my mom and Aunt do, and I have had them make my clothes, so, maybe I am used to it.

Because I have better things to do with my time. Like hanging out on a message board arguing with people about my right to do whatever I want with my own body.







:

Also, like I said, it's not ONLY about fitting into clothes properly. That's the main reason, but also because I personally don't like the way my breasts have changed. I don't like what pregnancy and nursing did to my teeth either so those will also change.

I have tattoos. Those are a permanant body modification. I've never had anyone make such a huge stink about those as they have about my decision to get breast implants. It's all so silly really, trying to convince a total stranger about what he or she should do with her own body.


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## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

I voted no, but I think that in the case of a serious unibrow or something it would be okay. I would strongly discourage my daughter (at any age really) from getting her eyebrows shaped just to make them "perfect".

Of course, I rarely shave, have never waxed anything. and have no problem (anymore) with my saggy pendulous breasts...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Because I have better things to do with my time. Like hanging out on a message board arguing with people about my right to do whatever I want with my own body.







: It's all so silly really, trying to convince a total stranger about what he or she should do with her own body.

My apologies if you felt that I was trying to change your mind. I wasn't. I was just trying to understand why you wouldn't research alternatives. Now, I understand. Thank you for responding to my questions. Again, I am sorry if they offended you.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

What made you assume that I'd not researched alternatives? Contrary to popular beliefs, humans are not as stupid as we appear.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

wende...I am not trying to change your mind at all. I am talking about society in general. Why is it that young (and 11 really is young) girls feel the need to change the way they look. Thats really what I was asking. It is sad to me to think of some beautiful girl going and waxing any part of her body when, really, her body is just so new.

And I am also surprised that here on what is a Natural family living site, people would be condoning hair removal and breast implants for anyone. What is natural about breat implants? Also, why would anyone subject themselves to elective surgery. Surgery cannot be good for your body. Having foreign objects in your body cannot be good. FWIW, I feel the same way about LASIK. I wouldn't do it. I think we are supposed to mess with our bodies as little as possible and I am a little surprised that more people at this site don't agree.

I am not being snarky, and I am not judging anyone. I am stating my own feelings.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

also, what if you had an accidental pregnancy after you modified your breasts and weren't able to nurse?


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
I have tattoos. Those are a permanant body modification. I've never had anyone make such a huge stink about those as they have about my decision to get breast implants. It's all so silly really, trying to convince a total stranger about what he or she should do with her own body.

There's a big difference between tattoos and breast implants, IMO. Firstly, as long as disposable needles are used in a sterile tattoo studio, the risks are pretty much nil (or very very extremely low). Not so with breast implants, at all.

I wish I still had all my graphic links to share with you (I might have shared them on MDC before) but there are very real risks to getting breast implants. Even saline implants are encased in silicone, which makes soooo many women very sick. Even plastic surgeons and breast implant manufacturers suggest that breast implants be replaced every ten years, so someone who gets breast implants should be planning to be able to afford multiple surgeries for the rest of their lives, assuming ALL GOES WELL.

So let's budget $2500-4000 every ten years (assuming everything is hunky dory and no extra surgeries are needed), that's $250-400 a year spent on breast implant surgery...not even including any time off work, etc., and this money could INSTEAD be spent on TAILORS altering all of your clothing to make it fit better, to personalize it and tailor it to your particular body type.

No health risks, no downtime, and no toxic silicone injected into your precious vessel.

I know what it's like to have trouble finding clothes to fit. I have always had extremely large breasts for my frame. It was extremely embarrassing to be flat at the beginning of age 12 then to grow to a D before I turned 13 and still be less than 100 lbs. Back then, I couldn't even find a "d" bra to save my life, except for the rare granny bra which didn't even fit my breasts either.

It's probably actually convenient for me that I live in a country where breast implants are so much more common as D and DD and F and G bras are so much easier to find, even so, I will try on 30 bras to get one that fits. Every time. Then I order 5 of them in different colors, or in the same color, since who knows if that bra will even be manufactured the next time I go to shop (they rarely are). And that is not even mentioning tops, dresses, etc. I have certainly never found a spaghetti strap dress that actually fits me. Bathing suits were so hard before they came out with mix-and-match and tankinis, because my top size would be many sizes larger than my bottom size. Just because I had large breasts did not mean I was plus size, that's for sure.

Anyway, I LOVE my body. My body has grown and nourished and held and cuddled my beloved family and I wouldn't do anything to change it (even though it'd be heavenly to not have to try on 20 cute shirts to find one that fits - if there even is one). I am sad that others haven't been able to find that kind of contentment with their bodies.

On the other hand, I do shave some parts of my body but haven't always. It's definitely a societal thing that leads me to want to do it. I admit that.


----------



## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
wende...I am not trying to change your mind at all. I am talking about society in general. Why is it that young (and 11 really is young) girls feel the need to change the way they look. Thats really what I was asking. It is sad to me to think of some beautiful girl going and waxing any part of her body when, really, her body is just so new.

And I am also surprised that here on what is a Natural family living site, people would be condoning hair removal and breast implants for anyone. What is natural about breat implants? Also, why would anyone subject themselves to elective surgery. Surgery cannot be good for your body. Having foreign objects in your body cannot be good. FWIW, I feel the same way about LASIK. I wouldn't do it. I think we are supposed to mess with our bodies as little as possible and I am a little surprised that more people at this site don't agree.

I am not being snarky, and I am not judging anyone. I am stating my own feelings.

My 11yo is really not all that young. I mean, I just have a hard time seeing her as a little girl these days, as much as I'd like to. It's not as if we're advocating permanent cosmetic procedures for a little girl, we are accepting that our almost teenaged daughters are wanting a simple brow wax. If they decide that they liked the way they looked better before, the brows will grow back. I don't see what the big deal is.

What's natural about coloring ones hair, or wearing eye glasses or contacts? What's natural about porceline veneers or dentures? What's natural about having hip replacement surgery? What's natural about tubes in ears? What's natural about oxygen tanks? What's natural about sitting in front of a computer and driving a car? What's natural about tattoos and body piercings? There are lots of things that aren't natural that we accept every single day. Why is this any different?


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
It's much more appropriate to teach our daughters to be so anti-conformist that they spend their lives being the freak down the street.











I'm guessing that on MDC, we have a large percentage (half even? LOL) of self-confessed freaks and this comment just wreaks of hilariousness.







:







:







:







:







:







:


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
And I am also surprised that here on what is a Natural family living site, people would be condoning hair removal and breast implants for anyone. What is natural about breat implants? Also, why would anyone subject themselves to elective surgery. Surgery cannot be good for your body. Having foreign objects in your body cannot be good. FWIW, I feel the same way about LASIK. I wouldn't do it. I think we are supposed to mess with our bodies as little as possible and I am a little surprised that more people at this site don't agree.

I am not being snarky, and I am not judging anyone. I am stating my own feelings.

With me, My breasts are causing health problems. My core muscles can be as strong as steel, and have been, and my back is suffering anyway. I am waiting until I"m done nursing, but I WILL Get a reduction/Lift once everything is said and done. Call me vain, but I would MUCH rather have a proper strait spine when I hit 80 than be a twisted crippled wreck because of my breast weight.

And LASIK? If you KNEW how much I spent on glasses and contacts every two years, you'd realize that LASIK is acctually the most frugal long term solution for most peoples eye problems.

My glasses alone cost $200 without the frames. I get the cheapest frames and they still run me about $300 a pop. Hmm...For $1000 I could be glasses and contact free for LIFE.

So what if it's not natural to get Lasik, it's not natural to be blind as bat either. GLASSES aren't "Natural" but people like me need them to see.

My breasts need to be reduced. Plain and simple. I need glasses to see.

Call me "vain" Call me whatever you want. Judgement is one of those things that need to be flushed with the rest of someones bodily waste in the mornings....


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
also, what if you had an accidental pregnancy after you modified your breasts and weren't able to nurse?

Honestly, at this point in my life if I were to have an accidental pregnancy I don't think that I'd continue the pregnancy. My body has decided that I shouldn't have more children and I'm listening. Plus, that's unlikely as I plan to have my tubes tied. Also unnatural.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*









I'm guessing that on MDC, we have a large percentage (half even? LOL) of self-confessed freaks and this comment just wreaks of hilariousness.







:







:







:







:







:








:

I've been called a freak once or twice in my life so I'm glad you could find the humor in the statement.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
I wish I still had all my graphic links to share with you (I might have shared them on MDC before) but there are very real risks to getting breast implants. Even saline implants are encased in silicone, which makes soooo many women very sick. Even plastic surgeons and breast implant manufacturers suggest that breast implants be replaced every ten years, so someone who gets breast implants should be planning to be able to afford multiple surgeries for the rest of their lives, assuming ALL GOES WELL.

I know the risks. I've seen the links. Again, I'm not a total idiot and, as a reasonable, responsible adult I am willing to take those risks.

Quote:


So let's budget $2500-4000 every ten years (assuming everything is hunky dory and no extra surgeries are needed), that's $250-400 a year spent on breast implant surgery...not even including any time off work, etc., and this money could INSTEAD be spent on TAILORS altering all of your clothing to make it fit better, to personalize it and tailor it to your particular body type.

No health risks, no downtime, and no toxic silicone injected into your precious vessel.
I'm a SAHM so there will be no time taken off work. I don't want to have to take all of my clothes to tailors. I already said that. What a pain in the ass. Not to mention, this is MY body and MY choice and I am tired of entertaining someone elses ideals about what I should look like and do with MY body. Oh, what's that you say? We shouldn't be conforming to someone elses idea of what we should look like...just so long as we don't do anything that offends YOU and your idea of what we should look like and do. Silly.

Quote:


Anyway, I LOVE my body. My body has grown and nourished and held and cuddled my beloved family and I wouldn't do anything to change it (even though it'd be heavenly to not have to try on 20 cute shirts to find one that fits - if there even is one). I am sad that others haven't been able to find that kind of contentment with their bodies.
I, too, love my body and am sad that others haven't been able to find contentment with their bodies. I mean, look at all those people with body dismorphia and eating disorders. It's very, very sad.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

I voted yes. Being 11 is hard enough without the added bonus of being self-concious about your eyebrows. I mean.. it's _hair_. It grows back. And, she'll just tweeze them if she's really stuck on them.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I voted yes.

I would let my daughter wax her eyebrows as long as she made an educated decision about it. ( knew what was involved, the costs, etc. )

Although, deep down, I would be a little bit sad that she isn't happy with her appearance.

I wish it wasn't true, but our society can be cruel when it comes to appearance, so I can understand an 11 year old doing it if it was to help her self-esteem.

Do I wax? No. Ouch. Well, when I made some candles I had wax fall on my arms, and I had to pick it off, along with a lot of hairs. I was crying by the time I was done.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*

I wish it wasn't true, but our society can be cruel when it comes to appearance, so I can understand an 11 year old doing it if it was to help her self-esteem.

How do you think it would help her self-esteem?


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

How do you think it would help her self-esteem?
Make her feel more confident about her appearance.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Oh, what's that you say? We shouldn't be conforming to someone elses idea of what we should look like...just so long as we don't do anything that offends YOU and your idea of what we should look like and do.

Nope, I didn't say any of that.

It doesn't offend me at all if you decide to get breast implants or do anything to change your look. I just think of the "what ifs" and what if you had the surgery and you got major infection and died or were incapacitated for 6 months or 18 months or sick for years on end, just not well enough to play with your children or take them places...I'd feel so incredibly sad for your family, that's all. Go ahead and do whatever you'd like.

My DH has a unibrow, doesn't bother me at all and he would NEVER tweeze but if either of my children ever wanted to, like really wanted to, then I think that I wouldn't make a huge fuss and try to stop them. Breast implants or liposuction will happen over my dead body, though.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I have never met a kid who said, "I choose you to be my friend because you have waxed eyebrows."

It has been proven that bullies choose their victims because they have low self-esteem, low-self-confidence.

I don't understand how waxing my daughter's eyebrows will improve their self-esteem/self-worth/self-confidence.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
Make her feel more confident about her appearance.

How, though? Why is she not feeling confident in the first place? What happened to lower her confidence?


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

MitB, can you not _remember_ middle school?


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

I have never met a kid who said, "I choose you to be my friend because you have waxed eyebrows."
Neither have I.

I don't agree with it, it would make me sad, but I would allow it. My 10 yr ds has his ears pierced, and I wasn't thrilled about it. I gave my consent because he did research and saved up his money.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
With me, My breasts are causing health problems. My core muscles can be as strong as steel, and have been, and my back is suffering anyway. I am waiting until I"m done nursing, but I WILL Get a reduction/Lift once everything is said and done.

My doctors always said I was eligible for breast reduction for free, as well. I also said that I'd wait until I was done nursing but I've changed my mind since. I do have some back problems but actually, inserts in my shoes prescribed by our massage therapist have actually taken my back pains away (well, in addition to an amazing latex mattress). Have you ever been to a chiropractor and/or massage therapist? I would hope that there would be other ways to help your spine, but I'm just guessing.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

How, though? Why is she not feeling confident in the first place? What happened to lower her confidence?
Well, I don't think I'll send my daugher to therapy for wanting to get waxed.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
MitB, can you not _remember_ middle school?

Yes, I remember middle school. I knew that no matter what my appearance, people were my friend because of who I was, not who I appeared to be.

I remember one girl who would go to the tanning booth, get pedicures/manicures, had her hair styled EVERY morning! (I kid you not, I went to private school where all the wealthy kids, not just rich, but wealthy attended), and no one liked her. She spent all her time worried about her appearance that she had no time to actually act like a human being.


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## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
How, though? Why is she not feeling confident in the first place? What happened to lower her confidence?

Cruel comments from other children? No matter how self-confident someone is, words can still hurt, especially to a pre-teen.

I got a lot of hurtful comments right around that age...I have several moles on my face, and kids could get MEAN about them.







No amount of reassurance from friends and family could make me feel better. Didn't matter that I was the smartest kid in class or the most musically talented, I was the weird one with the funny face.

I was so mad at my parents when they wouldn't let me have them removed. To this day, if I think about how "freakish" other kids made me feel, I still sometimes want to have them removed.

And yes, I am very confident in myself as an adult. As a child, maybe not so much.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

MITB-- I understand where you are coming from, I really do. But I'm just saying, I would respect her decision.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate42*
Cruel comments from other children? No matter how self-confident someone is, words can still hurt, especially to a pre-teen.

I got a lot of hurtful comments right around that age...I have several moles on my face, and kids could get MEAN about them.







No amount of reassurance from friends and family could make me feel better. Didn't matter that I was the smartest kid in class or the most musically talented, I was the weird one with the funny face.

I was so mad at my parents when they wouldn't let me have them removed. To this day, if I think about how "freakish" other kids made me feel, I still sometimes want to have them removed.

And yes, I am very confident in myself as an adult. As a child, maybe not so much.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, I remember middle school. I knew that no matter what my appearance, people were my friend because of who I was, not who I appeared to be.

I remember one girl who would go to the tanning booth, get pedicures/manicures, had her hair styled EVERY morning! (I kid you not, I went to private school where all the wealthy kids, not just rich, but wealthy attended), and no one liked her. She spent all her time worried about her appearance that she had no time to actually act like a human being.

I wish I went to your middle school. I remember mine and it was certainly not anything similar to the one you attended. People were teased due to looks/material possessions daily. Your school must not have consisted of average 11-14 year olds. That age group can be vicious. Trust me, I remember with astounding clarity the levels of viciousness that were present.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
My doctors always said I was eligible for breast reduction for free, as well. I also said that I'd wait until I was done nursing but I've changed my mind since. I do have some back problems but actually, inserts in my shoes prescribed by our massage therapist have actually taken my back pains away (well, in addition to an amazing latex mattress). Have you ever been to a chiropractor and/or massage therapist? I would hope that there would be other ways to help your spine, but I'm just guessing.









Even the chiro suggested a reduction because the weight will just gradually warp my spine even more than it already is...

It *IS* a breast weight problem..

I'm waiting till I'm done nursing then off to the dr for a refferal...

Not looking forward to the recovery but if it makes my long term quality of life better, so be it...


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

This thread was started because waxing is unnatural. Either for an adult, or a child, it is unnatural. As much as I love to strive for natural living, I cannot force my children to follow my lifestyle, nor would I want to force them. They will live their lives the way they want to live it.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I have to say something on this thread, and it may offend some people but I don't think it will get it shut down.

There seem to be some women who feel that women, and their daughters _SHOULD_ feel a certain way. And if they don't feel the way a few women on this thread think that they should feel they are going to condescend, shame and criticize. I'm not talking your standard "Why is MDC so judgmental" complaint we hear time and time again, but specific needling, passive aggressive, and holier than thou attitudes. I find it really sad that anyone ever would tell another person how they should feel. I find it especially distasteful on a board that fosters gentle discipline would use shame as a means for getting their point across.

One rarely changes a persons mind or makes them reconsider the way they feel about something by making the person you want to convince feel bad about themselves.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
I have to say something on this thread, and it may offend some people but I don't think it will get it shut down.

There seem to be some women who feel that women, and their daughters _SHOULD_ feel a certain way. And if they don't feel the way a few women on this thread think that they should feel they are going to condescend, shame and criticize. I'm not talking your standard "Why is MDC so judgmental" complaint we hear time and time again, but specific needling, passive aggressive, and holier than thou attitudes. I find it really sad that anyone ever would tell another person how they should feel. I find it especially distasteful on a board that fosters gentle discipline would use shame as a means for getting their point across.

One rarely changes a persons mind or makes them reconsider the way they feel about something by making the person you want to convince feel bad about themselves.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
I have to say something on this thread, and it may offend some people but I don't think it will get it shut down.

There seem to be some women who feel that women, and their daughters _SHOULD_ feel a certain way. And if they don't feel the way a few women on this thread think that they should feel they are going to condescend, shame and criticize. I'm not talking your standard "Why is MDC so judgmental" complaint we hear time and time again, but specific needling, passive aggressive, and holier than thou attitudes. I find it really sad that anyone ever would tell another person how they should feel. I find it especially distasteful on a board that fosters gentle discipline would use shame as a means for getting their point across.

One rarely changes a persons mind or makes them reconsider the way they feel about something by making the person you want to convince feel bad about themselves.

I was in the process of applauding this post and CrazyRED beat me to it. However, ITA. Nicely articulated.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I see nothing wrong with questioning why mothers are okay conditioning their daughters to conform to unrealistic societal 'norms'.

Where is anyone communicating that they're interested in/okay with conditioning their daughters to conform to anything? Supporting choice is not the same thing!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I never said to deny them their rights to their bodies. I did ask why not instill a sense of self-confidence in their body?
It seems to me that if I had my dd's eyebrows waxed at age 11, it would be a clear sign that I don't consider her to be attractive.

I would agree with you that signing a child up for a little cosmetic action without them expressing a desire on their own would not be too cool, and I think it would communicate something unfortunate. But nobody here is advocating for that.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2happymamas*
I wish I went to your middle school. I remember mine and it was certainly not anything similar to the one you attended. People were teased due to looks/material possessions daily. Your school must not have consisted of average 11-14 year olds. That age group can be vicious. Trust me, I remember with astounding clarity the levels of viciousness that were present.

It DID consist of that and worse. There were a lot of girls/boys with eating disorders. One girl died from anorexia.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
This thread was started because waxing is unnatural. Either for an adult, or a child, it is unnatural. As much as I love to strive for natural living, I cannot force my children to follow my lifestyle, nor would I want to force them. They will live their lives the way they want to live it.

Ya know, _haircuts_ are "unnatural" too, but no one is going to claim that your dd has no self-esteem and that you're brainwashing them with cultural norms if a kid wants a haircut, right?

Just saying.

I think the real issue here isn't the natural or unaturalness of eyebrow waxing--it's that eyebrow waxing sounds grown-up. For the record, my little brother started waxing his unibrow in 6th or 7th grade, and he's downright cocky. No self-esteem issues there.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

Ya know, haircuts are "unnatural" too, but no one is going to claim that your dd has no self-esteem and that you're brainwashing them with cultural norms if a kid wants a haircut, right?
No way! I worded it wrong I think. I was trying to say that although I wouldn't want her get waxed because I think it is unnatural, what she thinks could be totally different.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Absolutely it would be ok.
I have a mother would wouldn't allow me to wear nail polish or even nylons as a child. When she finally, FINALLY looked at my leg hair at the age of 9 (after begging for months to shave) she gave her consent.
My brother took the electric shaver and after every swipe he had to unclog the razor - my hair was so thick.
To have one less thing to be teased about what was wonderful.
It had nothing to do with self-confidence. It had everything to do with the fact I was freakishly hairy, it was MY body, and my mother didn't have to go to school everyday and hear about being compared to a yeti.









For the record, I dyed my hair at 14, I got ear piercing at 11, cartlidge piercing at 13, and a nose piercing at 15, and an industrial piercing at 21.
Only body modification I have ever done.
Getting rid of my hair did not lead me down a path of trying to be like Paris Hilton. Some times a bit more realist and a bit less idealist does this board good.

I would let me daughters shave/wax if they were being teased and felt worried by it.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I voted yes on eyebrow waxing. I can't think of any reason not to allow it. I agree with the above poster that haircuts are "unnatural." Of course, I have huge, bushy eyebrows without plucking, and waxing does a better job. I would not allow my 11 year old to get a brazilian, but waxing eyebrows is fine.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
Where is anyone communicating that they're interested in/okay with conditioning their daughters to conform to anything? Supporting choice is not the same thing!

Yes, if that choice is based on appeasing their peers based upon appearance. Saying that you are okay with letting your child wax their eyebrows because they have low-self esteem seems a really backwards way of raising a child's esteem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
I would agree with you that signing a child up for a little cosmetic action without them expressing a desire on their own would not be too cool, and I think it would communicate something unfortunate. But nobody here is advocating for that.

I know.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

I think the real issue here isn't the natural or unaturalness of eyebrow waxing--it's that eyebrow waxing sounds grown-up.
You are right on that as well. I think though, I remember reading a few pages back at how mamas at MDC are allowing some thing so unnatural. So, I guess that is what I was trying to get at.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
For the record, my little brother started waxing his unibrow in 6th or 7th grade, and *he's downright cocky*. No self-esteem issues there.

I was under the impression that people who are 'cocky' actually have very low self-esteem.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

If your daughter is confident Mama, and dosen't care what anyone thinks...

Why would she care if she saw it as a 'clear sign she was unattractive'?

When my mom said YES all I felt was relief. We still laugh about how hairy my legs were (1/2-1 inch of fuzz all over) and it never even crossed my mind she thought I was unnattractive by giving consent.
I already knew my leg hair was enough to braid a rug with!!!


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It DID consist of that and worse. There were a lot of girls/boys with eating disorders. One girl died from anorexia.

Oh, I must have misunderstood you. I thought you meant that all the kids liked everyone for who they were, as opposed to who they appeared to be. I did not realize that you were only speaking for yourself.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I was under the impression that people who are 'cocky' actually have very low self-esteem.









You seem to be under a lot of impressions concerning self-esteem.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

I guess it comes down to the word *"allowing."* For ME, that is what this is about. Sure, who are we kidding, there are some things that we simply cannot allow our children to do. My child will not be allowed to use meth around me. My child will not be allowed to ride with people who are drinking. My child will not be allowed to ride on a motorcycle without a helmet. Those kind of things.

Children should have choices. I suppose I really believe that paretns should pick their battles. If I had an 11 year old and he or she asked to have a unibrow waxed, I would accomidate. A bikini wax? Not on their life. A belly button ring at 16? I wouldn't like it and it is not for me, but it is not my belly button. Want to put green streaks in your hair? Hey, it is not my hair. Life will go on, green streaks and all.

I would rather concede on some things and really stand my ground on those that are most important. A little wax on the eyebrows...ah, no harm. It really is all about picking battles, IMO.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, if that choice is based on appeasing their peers based upon appearance. Saying that you are okay with letting your child wax their eyebrows because they have low-self esteem seems a really backwards way of raising a child's esteem.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not okay with letting my child wax their eyebrows because they have low self-esteem, but because I want them to have jurisdiction over their own bodies whenever possible. That doesn't mean I'll zip over to book an appointment at the salon the second they mention getting a brow wax. There is a middle ground here that would allow for me to share my perspective and for said child and I to discuss the situation in depth. I'm unwilling to play police officer over my kid's grooming, I don't feel that I get to determine whether their reasoning is good enough before "allowing" something like this.


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## FitMama (Jul 20, 2003)

I was teased mercilessly for my hairy legs at age 11. I am blond, and my leg hair is blond. So no big deal, right? Well, kids that age will always find SOMETHING to tease about.

I don't have daughters but I'd let them go for an eyebrow wax at age 11. Lord knows my sons will be shaving pretty early...my DH is such a furball.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FitMama*
Lord knows my sons will be shaving pretty early...my DH is such a furball.

Yet another example of the double standard. Who here would tell a mama that thier ds had "no self esteem" because he decided to shave?


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2happymamas*
I guess it comes down to the word *"allowing."* For ME, that is what this is about. Sure, who are we kidding, there are some things that we simply cannot allow our children to do. My child will not be allowed to use meth around me. My child will not be allowed to ride with people who are drinking. My child will not be allowed to ride on a motorcycle without a helmet. Those kind of things.

Children should have choices. I suppose I really believe that paretns should pick their battles. If I had an 11 year old and he or she asked to have a unibrow waxed, I would accomidate. A bikini wax? Not on their life. A belly button ring at 16? I wouldn't like it and it is not for me, but it is not my belly button. Want to put green streaks in your hair? Hey, it is not my hair. Life will go on, green streaks and all.

I would rather concede on some things and really stand my ground on those that are most important. A little wax on the eyebrows...ah, no harm. It really is all about picking battles, IMO.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
Yet another example of the double standard. Who here would tell a mama that thier ds had "no self esteem" because he decided to shave?

I can't think of anyone...


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

edited...the conversation had moved on...


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

2happymamas


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

"I think this is sad that already young girl is feeling like her body needs modification.. I would rather try and build up this girls self esteem rather than encourage her to change herself, or to think of herself as "wrong" in some way. What are your thoughts? About waxing, please. Not about whether or not their should be a poll on this"

My 9 year old decided she did not want kids laugh at her because of the hair on her arms and I don't consider myself a failure for that, MY arms are not shaved.

But I allowed her hair removal cream and now we're both happy. Waxing isn't really necessary because the hair grows back VERY slowly anyway ( must be the age)


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## Snowdrift (Oct 15, 2005)

Changing my mind after reading the rest of the thread. I posted on page one that I would only allow it if there was some sort of extraordinary condition going on. But I realize that that was my knee-jerk response bc it sounded very grown-up. I agree with pp's that it should about the girl's body autonomy and not my immediate comfort zone.

That said, I sure hope my DD grows up to be happily hairy-legged like her mama, or at least not too hung up on thins like stray hairs.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
ITA. A self-confident person won't give a flying hoot what others 'see'.

Wavering self confidence as a preteen and teen is also normal, I don't like the implication that that's anything abnormal.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

My mom thought it was so cute when my 5yo ds copied daddy with a pencil pretending it was razor, but was disgusted when my 2yo dd did it.







:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
Wavering self confidence as a preteen and teen is also normal, I don't like the implication that that's anything abnormal.

ITA. I don't agree that waxing eyebrows will fix the problem, though.


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Very interesting thread...I can't for the life of me remember when I started shaving..wasn't that monumental for me. I do know that I begged my mom for a perm when I was 8 b/c I was obsessed with annie--she gave in and I had curly hair until I was 13. I also had a trip to the plastic surgeon at 10 for a consult...I have very large ears for the size of my head and one of them sticks out pretty bad. I wanted the one that stuck out to be surgically fixed, why b/c for two summers ina row at the community pool I was called DUMBO. When my hair was wet and slicked back to my head my ears just were so pronounced. I hated it but I loved going to the pool. One time I even superglued the one ear to my scalp, which ofcourse looked much stranger and is something I can seriuosly laugh about now. I did not have anything done to my ears and have learned to love them but at ten I was miserable and thought if only I could get them fixed...Children do not have adult perspective. They are self absorbed--thats where they are developmentally. I think it is way more typical for children to have insecurities about themselves than not. Waxing or plucking hair is very minor,imo, and not permanent. Yes its sad that children can be teased mercilessly and I would talk with my ds about any changes he wanted to do to his body and ask why but would never make him feel badly about his choice to do so.


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## kimnicole428 (Mar 2, 2006)

First I think it bears repeating that on some level we are all conforming to social standards. I cant think of anyone totally oblivious to sociatal norms.

Wanting to change something about your body does not mean that you are lacking in body image self confidence. I hope to continue to learn and mature over my life time. That doent mean I have low self confidence about my current maturity level or intelligence. Stating that the level of a childs body image self confidence somehow directly corresponds to how they want to groom is a stretch to me.

Wanting to alter eybrows, hair, clothing and other minor external features doesnt scream OMG that child has never been taught to love them selves or have self confidence. It says NORMAL KID looking for their niche.

Teen Society has always had standards of beauty. (and there isnt just one standard of beauty Punk, Goth, Preppy, Hood, and Skater for example all have different standards) We as humans shift within those standards. We want to belong to a group and part of it is how we look. I would say everything in moderation applies to this case as well.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

http://www.self-esteem-nase.org/whatisselfesteem.shtml

Quote:

In other words, we need to help foster the development of people who have healthy or authentic self-esteem because *they trust their own being to be life affirming, constructive, responsible and trustworthy*.
I think this sums up what I have been trying to convey and why I would not condone nor advocate for a child to get their eyebrows waxed.


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## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
Wavering self confidence as a preteen and teen is also normal, I don't like the implication that that's anything abnormal.

I totally agree. If I had the self-confidence then that I had now, life would have been a lot easier.

However, I didn't have it. I don't think anyone that age does. It's called the "awkward stage" for a reason. Bodies and minds are changing and developing.

When DD is 11, if she feels the need to have her eyebrows waxed after the proper education about it, she can. If she doesn't like the results, she never has to do it again. Her body, her choice.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

Experts say hair is meant to protect us. Ear hair, nose hair, and even pesky facial hair is meant to keep germs out of the body. Waxing invites those germs in and exposes you to more.
Health risks in waxing

There are less dangerous ways of raising a child's self-esteem.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

I find the debate about self esteem and self worth very interesting. I am not in the camp that believes that by agreeing with some norm within our culture one cannot be self confident or have high self esteem. I have extremely high self esteem and self confidence levels and I always have, all through childhood and into adulthood. I certainly have done my share of counter culture activities but in the end I have found my own balance, some of it counter the norm, some of it isn't and that's okay. I know it is because I know how I feel.

As a parent, I feel it is really my job to help my child figure out their path, not my job to try to lay it out for them. I happen to have a very girly-girl. She is really my complete opposite in many, many ways. However, I don't try to mold her into a mini me, I want her to be herself and I want to support her. That does not mean I don't expect her to think about what she does. I have taught her skills to use so that she is able to make choices for herself that work for her...even if they personally wouldn't work for me...


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I had horrible acne at the age of 12. I was teased so bad. Even though I had a nice group of friends that accepted me the way I was, outside my "little world", it sucked. My mom paid a pretty pennyfor a dermatologist to have it cleared up, and I will forever be thankful to her. My life would have gone on if she hadn't, but she made my life so much easier.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

From your self esteem link, MITB:

Quote:

This concept of self-esteem is founded on the premise that it is strongly connected to a sense of competence and worthiness and the relationship between the two as one lives life. The worthiness component of self-esteem is often misunderstood as simply feeling good about oneself, when it actually is tied to whether or not a person lives up to certain fundamental human values, such as finding meanings that foster human growth and making commitments to them in a way that leads to a sense of integrity and satisfaction.
This is big stuff IMO, and getting rid of a few stray hairs is the small stuff. I do wax my brows, and I am pretty sure that it has no effect whatsoever on my ability to foster growth and commitment.


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## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

I have high ideals like everyone else, but we still live in the real world. It wouldn't be fair of me to force my daughter to do or not do something (when it's as simple and as easily reversible as brow waxing) that makes her very uncomfortable just so I can stand up and say I'm a totally natural mama. Desire to fit in is very, very normal at that age. My daughter is 10 1/2 and is a very independent spirit, but on some things she wants to blend in, and so I help her with her uni-brow. We've plucked so far, but next week (before school starts) she'll be having it waxed for the first time. I think the primary lesson that I'm teaching her is that her body belongs to her and she has the right (within reason; we're holding off on the tattoos for now!) to groom herself as she deems appropriate.

I promised myself when I had kids that I would never fight with them over hair. It's always gonna grow back, whether it's on their heads or on their faces. I've had to put my money where my mouth is; hair has at times been shaved off (my sons and my daughter), there have been mohawks, pink hair, etc. It's not worth getting hung up about.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I'm curious. The mamas who would not allow it, how would you word your response to your dd?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrazyRED*
From your self esteem link, MITB:
This is big stuff IMO, and getting rid of a few stray hairs is the small stuff.

All the more reason not to let a 'few stray hairs' get in the way of something so important.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
I'm curious. The mamas who would not allow it, how would you word your response to your dd?

me too


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Me three!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
I'm curious. The mamas who would not allow it, how would you word your response to your dd?

"No matter what your appearance, people will be your friend for who you are, not for what you look like. No one has power nor control over YOUR feelings. You are the only one who can control how you feel. You cannot control others actions/words, but you can control your own."

I would also talk about the health risks associated with hair removal.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

That doesn't seem like a very straight forward answer to a girl who says, "Mom I want to use my babysitting money to get my eyebrows waxed." what if you went into that whole thing about friends and she said "Mom, what are you nuts?







: who said anything about why people like me, I just want to do it."


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

See, that is where I would get into trouble. My 10 yo for example, would not accept that answer. The minute I said "control" he would say I should be able to "control" my body. He is a quick one I tell you.









ETA: Especially if it was something he felt so strong about, or was getting teased about.

ETA again, I am so curious because I'm not to far away from the pre-teen area.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
"No matter what your appearance, people will be your friend for who you are, not for what you look like. No one has power nor control over YOUR feelings. You are the only one who can control how you feel. You cannot control others actions/words, but you can control your own."

So, essentially, you'd tell her to suck it up and _force_ herself to _feel_ love for her stray brow hairs? Because only she can control how she conforms to your expectations of self-love?


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
Yet another example of the double standard. Who here would tell a mama that thier ds had "no self esteem" because he decided to shave?

Just waiting on a response to this question?

And who here would tell their son they can't shave because,

Quote:

"No matter what your appearance, people will be your friend for who you are, not for what you look like. No one has power nor control over YOUR feelings. You are the only one who can control how you feel. You cannot control others actions/words, but you can control your own."


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
That doesn't seem like a very straight forward answer to a girl who says, "Mom I want to use my babysitting money to get my eyebrows waxed." what if you went into that whole thing about friends and she said "Mom, what are you nuts?







: who said anything about why people like me, I just want to do it."

I have been raising my children from birth to be self-confident and have a strong sense of self-worth, so, the chance of them coming to me saying something like the above is slim.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Isn't attachment parenting all about responding to your child's cues and needs? Responding to those needs with the best interest of the child in mind?

As I sit here with my 10 month old little girl, I can't imagine her coming to me with a request (aside from a permanent or safety issue) where I would put my feelings on the issue before her feelings. If my child feels that she needs to do something, for herself and she understands both the financial and health consequences, then I will support her.

Try reading the "Mean Girls" thread. I didn't post much in my story, mostly because it's just not somewhere I wish to go ever again. If I can do anything to make my kid's trip from pre-teen to grown up a little easier, I will. It just might be a little more important to have a mom who values your feelings than a mom who imposes her values.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I have been raising my children from birth to be self-confident and have a strong sense of self-worth, so, the chance of them coming to me saying something like the above is slim.

I just do not see the correlation between wanting to wax eyebrows (as a personal choice and not in order to make someone like you more) and self-confidence/self-worth. I do not see it at all.

If someone wants to wax his or her eyebrows for themselves and not due in peer pressure, what implication does that have on self-confidence. To me, it only means that he or she wants the eyebrows waxed. I do not understand why everything needs to be so deep. Maybe the person wants different eyebrows. I do not think that is must be a statement about the person's self-worth and confidence.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
Isn't attachment parenting all about responding to your child's cues and needs? Responding to those needs with the best interest of the child in mind? It just might be a little more important to have a mom who values your feelings than a mom who imposes her values.

Why is it you think that addressing a child's self-esteem is the same as invalidating their feelings? I would rather empower my children than say, "Yep, go ahead and wax your eyebrows, we'll deal with your self-esteem when you are a woman!"


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

You have every right to share your opinions on self esteem & cosmetic alterations with your child, and I applaud the parent's that do. Children REALLY need these messages. But when you go beyond that and eliminate the choice from the child, claiming your supposed "right" as a parent to dictate over their body, then I feel it's completely hypocritical. You can NOT instill a sense of independence and confidence in someone while you're holding their self autonomy hostage. The old "my body, my choice" feminist slogan applies not just to women, but to girls too.


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## kater07 (Jan 6, 2002)

I absolutely believe that if an 11yo asks to have her eyebrows waxed, she should be allowed. I find it hard to believe that parents would say no to their kids when they are obviously tortured by other children and it's doing emotional damage to their child. This doesn't include issues like drugs or tatoos or other serious life altering things, but waxing eyebrows, legs, chins, lips, sure!


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

*MITB* You didn't address the question of allowing your DS to shave.

You do have to recognize that when your DC grow up, they will attempt to seek out jobs. And the first thing a potential employer notices, is, the outward appearance. This has nothing to do with "Self Esteem" but the plain fact that employers care about how their employees look, it's a reflection on their business as a whole.

It's a fact of life: First your looks, then your qualifications.

You can preach till you're blue in the face that "Self esteem is everything" but the fact of the matter is, if you look like crap, you aren't gonna get a job.

and yes, stray hairs can affect the outcome of a job interview...


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kater07*
I absolutely believe that if an 11yo asks to have her eyebrows waxed, she should be allowed. I find it hard to believe that parents would say no to their kids when they are obviously tortured by other children and it's doing emotional damage to their child. This doesn't include issues like drugs or tatoos or other serious life altering things


how do you put tattoos and drug use in the same category?







i'd let my minor child get a tattoo if they wanted one. i don't see the big deal...


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
I'm curious. The mamas who would not allow it, how would you word your response to your dd?

something like, you are beautiful and your body and face are perfect just the way you are. I would tell her all the qualities I love about her and remind her of her accomplishments.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Why is it you think that addressing a child's self-esteem is the same as invalidating their feelings? I would rather empower my children than say, "Yep, go ahead and wax your eyebrows, we'll deal with your self-esteem when you are a woman!"

Ok, let's say just for kicks you have a fictional 11 year old daughter. (I'm not sure, you might for all I know). She comes to you and she says, "Mama, I'm feeling like these Peter Gallagher look a like eyebrows are cramping my style. I don't like them and want to get them waxed."

"No matter what your appearance, people will be your friend for who you are, not for what you look like. No one has power nor control over YOUR feelings. You are the only one who can control how you feel. You cannot control others actions/words, but you can control your own."

Explain to me how that isn't invalidating her fictional feelings?


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
Just waiting on a response to this question?

And who here would tell their son they can't shave because,

I did respond to the question a few pages back...I said no, I would not allow nmy 11 son to shave. No double standards here.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I did respond to the question a few pages back...I said no, I would not allow nmy 11 son to shave. No double standards here.

Acctually numom: It is essential for a boy to shave off his peach fuzz at first, because if he chooses to sport a beard, shaving it off will allow for fuller more even growth.

Also, adolescent boys are extremely prone to acne. beard growth can interfere with the treatment of acne, preventing the acne treatment from reaching the problem areas. Not to mention the inability to wash their face properly and resulting in even worse breakouts, infected folicles and the like...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
*MITB* You didn't address the question of allowing your DS to shave.

You do have to recognize that when your DC grow up, they will attempt to seek out jobs. And the first thing a potential employer notices, is, the outward appearance. This has nothing to do with "Self Esteem" but the plain fact that employers care about how their employees look, it's a reflection on their business as a whole.

It's a fact of life: First your looks, then your qualifications.

You can preach till you're blue in the face that "Self esteem is everything" but the fact of the matter is, if you look like crap, you aren't gonna get a job.

and yes, stray hairs can affect the outcome of a job interview...

By the time my ds is looking for jobs, he will be a man and no longer need to seek my counsel. I highly doubt my 11 yr old ds will need to shave, and, in fact, highly doubt he will ever need to shave(genetics).


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
By the time my ds is looking for jobs, he will be a man and no longer need to seek my counsel. I highly doubt my 11 yr old ds will need to shave, and, in fact, highly doubt he will ever need to shave(genetics).

lucky...I'm French, my DH is French, my kids are doomed to look like Neanderthal Sasquatches if they dont take grooming in hand.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
You have every right to share your opinions on self esteem & cosmetic alterations with your child, and I applaud the parent's that do. Children REALLY need these messages. But when you go beyond that and eliminate the choice from the child, claiming your supposed "right" as a parent to dictate over their body, then I feel it's completely hypocritical. You can NOT instill a sense of independence and confidence in someone while you're holding their self autonomy hostage. The old "my body, my choice" feminist slogan applies not just to women, but to girls too.

My parents did a pretty good job with us, and the parents of my IRL friends. I will continue to follow their advice. They never got picked on in school, neither. I guess their parents must have done something right.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
lucky...I'm French, my DH is French, my kids are doomed to look like *Neanderthal Sasquatches* if they dont take grooming in hand.

Hey!! My babies resemble that remark! (Their paternal great-grandfather is French).


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I didn't read any posts putting women down. If a person feels put-down, that is a sign of low self-esteem/low self-confidence.

I'm going to be optimistic and hope you're only talking about feeling put down by the posts in this thread, not feeling put down ever.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Hey!! My babies resemble that remark! (Their paternal great-grandfather is French).

yeah but they have the very recent Aboriginal blood to cancel out the sasquatchness









My kids will only have a smidgen of Irish blood and very little of that, to somewhat thin the pelt.

(well the one that's incubating right now anyway..DD's bio-dad russian/Dane mix so who knows)

And hey, Baby Wookies and Ewoks are cute!!!

>.>


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*

And hey, Baby Wookies and Ewoks are cute!!!


Adult ones can be sexy, too!


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
By the time my ds is looking for jobs, he will be a man and no longer need to seek my counsel. I highly doubt my 11 yr old ds will need to shave, and, in fact, highly doubt he will ever need to shave(genetics).

genetically my kids will most likely never need or want to wax their brows, didn't stop me or answering a hypothetical question.


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Well my ds has already announced he will shave off his beard, if he grows one like daddy. His father has a very full beard and had to start shaving at 12 yo. The reason my ds stated he wanted to shave: "its scratchy to give daddy hugs and kisses". Its not a self esteem issue its a comfort thing and if at 12 or 13 my ds starts getting facial hair like his dad and wants to shave it off, who am I to object?


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Those that wouldn't allow their 11 y/o to wax, shave or pluck, is there any age between 11-18 that you would allow it?

Oh, and if this was asked and answered already, please disregard.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
Those that wouldn't allow their 11 y/o to wax, shave or pluck, is there any age between 11-18 that you would allow it?

Oh, and if this was asked and answered already, please disregard.

OOH OOH! AND, If you caught said DC doing any of the above, what would you do???

Would you *gasp* Punish them?


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
Those that wouldn't allow their 11 y/o to wax, shave or pluck, is there any age between 11-18 that you would allow it?

Oh, and if this was asked and answered already, please disregard.

honestly, not sure...i just know that 11 is waay to young to be buying into societal stereotypes...16 maybe?


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
OOH OOH! AND, If you caught said DC doing any of the above, what would you do???

Would you *gasp* Punish them?

no, i wouldn't gasp punish them...I don't think I would cath my kids doing anything...we have an open relationship where we discuss things. If my 11 yo decided to do it, i would know.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
no, i wouldn't gasp punish them...I don't think I would cath my kids doing anything...we have an open relationship where we discuss things. If my 11 yo decided to do it, i would know.

That's what you think. If you start imposing draconian rules on what they can and can't do with their bodies, then you'll see it backfire, FAST.


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

I do let my 12 dd shave & we pluck stray eyebrow hairs. The desire to fit in @ 12 is HUGE. Being accepted is important @ this age & if some minor grooming will help that, so be it.


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Quote:

honestly, not sure...i just know that 11 is waay to young to be buying into societal stereotypes...16 maybe?
Does this apply to ds as well?

cause like I stated my ds has expressed discomfort with loving on his dad due to his beard which imo has nothing to do with societal stereotypes and everything to do with personal preference which I plan on letting ds exert before 16 yo.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamillet*
Does this apply to ds as well?

cause like I stated my ds has expressed discomfort with loving on his dad due to his beard which imo has nothing to do with societal stereotypes and everything to do with personal preference which I plan on letting ds exert before 16 yo.


for the third time, yes, it applies to ds as well.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
That's what you think. If you start imposing draconian rules on what they can and can't do with their bodies, then you'll see it backfire, FAST.

I agree, but maybe it takes actually having older children to see that.


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Quote:

for the third time, yes, it applies to ds as well.

Really??? So if his facial hair grwos in at 12 or 13 and he finds it really itchy your response will be what exactly. Deal with it, its natural!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
That's what you think. If you start imposing draconian rules on what they can and can't do with their bodies, then you'll see it backfire, FAST.

There is a difference between 'draconian rules' and open communication between parents and their children. I am happy that my parents were honest and up-front with me when I asked about shaving, piercing, tattoos, drinking alcohol, etc.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamillet*
Really??? So if his facial hair grwos in at 12 or 13 and he finds it really itchy your response will be what exactly. Deal with it, its natural!

Yes. I will also teach my children about our cultural values which say 'No cutting hair'.


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## kater07 (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
how do you put tattoos and drug use in the same category?







i'd let my minor child get a tattoo if they wanted one. i don't see the big deal...

*I* don't put them in the same category, but MOST people I know DO. So, I wasn't saying that I believe it... I dont' know how to properly express my thoughts on this issue except to say that when you are called monkey girl, monkey legs, hairy eyes, and stinky all because of the things your parents think you are too young for, you see the merit of allowing a child to wax his/her eyebrows, if that's something they want.

I was thinking of the younger crowd (under 16) when thinking Tatoos, too. I am not sure that even you, would allow your 11yo to choose a tatoo that would be permanent. Maybe you would. I don't know you, so I can't say what you would or wouldn't do.

Tatoos (and other permanent "fixes"), and certain drugs (life altering substances in many cases) aren't like consenting to eyebrow waxing (a non permanent change).

I think that apperance is about far more than self esteem, and I wouldn't allow my child to have a tatoo under peer pressure, but possibly for their own heart, I would; we'll have to wait and see.

I don't think that being made fun of over your body hair is peer pressure as much as it's just nastiness. My child would be taken out for a mom's day out and we'd both get a spa treatment including waxing if it would make her feel better and be a bit happier.

That's all I was trying to say in a short amount of time.


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## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Quote:

Yes. I will also teach my children about our cultural values which say 'No cutting hair'.
You mean _your_ cultural values.

Children can and will think for themselves, especially teens!


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I posted earlier about my acne problem as a teen. I couldn't imagine if my mom had told me to just accept it, and be proud of who I am. I *did* have a good self esteem until I was called names constantly and teased. Pizza face, road map, dot-to-dot, etc. I guess I wasn't strong enough to not let it phase me.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamillet*
You mean _your_ cultural values.

Children can and will think for themselves, especially teens!

Actually, I should say THEIR, as they are not the same Tribe as I am. But, since I choose to go by their culture, then I say ours.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
I posted earlier about my acne problem as a teen. I couldn't imagine if my mom had told me to just accept it, and be proud of who I am. I *did* have a good self esteem until I was called names constantly and teased. Pizza face, road map, dot-to-dot, etc. I guess I wasn't strong enough to not let it phase me.

Cranks up the Peewee herman voice...

Conne....

aah screw it


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kater07*

I was thinking of the younger crowd (under 16) when thinking Tatoos, too. I am not sure that even you, would allow your 11yo to choose a tatoo that would be permanent. Maybe you would. I don't know you, so I can't say what you would or wouldn't do.

Tatoos (and other permanent "fixes"), and certain drugs (life altering substances in many cases) aren't like consenting to eyebrow waxing (a non permanent change).


thanks for clarifying. though i don't believe tattoos are a "fix" and they're not even permanent anymore thanks to lazor removal.







so yeah, i'd even let an 11 yr old get one, on his dime of course, and after i warned him about 5 million times that he'd probably regret it


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I will let my girls pluck or wax their eyebrows at that age, if they want to do so.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
I posted earlier about my acne problem as a teen. I couldn't imagine if my mom had told me to just accept it, and be proud of who I am. I *did* have a good self esteem until I was called names constantly and teased. Pizza face, road map, dot-to-dot, etc. I guess I wasn't strong enough to not let it phase me.

Having an acne problem vs waxing eyebrows to look like someone else's eyebrows is not the same thing.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

Cranks up the Peewee herman voice...


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
I will let my girls pluck or wax their eyebrows at that age, if they want to do so.

What if they got an infection and were permanantly scarred?


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

Having an acne problem vs waxing eyebrows to look like someone else's eyebrows is not the same thing.
I know. I was just looking for sympathy.









You are right, but I was changing my body so I wouldn't get teased. My body developed acne, hair, nails...etc. And I chose to try and control the acne. Just like an 11 year old would maybe want to control hair? In my opinion, it is along the same line.

And I did want skin not full of huge pimples like my classmates. Honestly I was the only one at that age in that class with damn pimples.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
What if they got an infection and were permanantly scarred?

How common is it REALLY for this to happen. Is that not, perhaps, a bit drastic. I am sure the potential is present for this. I do not doubt that one bit. I am, however, curious about how often permanent scarring occurs.

Most women I know either tweeze or wax their eyebrows. I have yet to hear of anyone suffering permanent scarring. How prevalent is this? Not hypotetically speaking, but actual prevalence.

What in the heck would someone have to do with tweezers to permanently scar themselves? And by this, I do mean tweezing. Not someone accidently poking themself in the eye with the tweezer.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

Having an acne problem vs waxing eyebrows to look like someone else's eyebrows is not the same thing.
But these "problems" can often can often result in the same outcome being teased unmercifully by peers. Does it suck that this happens? Yeah alot and in reality it happens alot. Teens and pre teens have enough issues to deal with and not letting them do little things to make that path alittle easier is just plain mean. By not allowing them to do something so easy and non permenant is simply spreading and inflicting the _parents_ agenda on the child.


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## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

I've never been damaged by plucking yet and I have been doing it since I was about 12yrs old.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes. I will also teach my children about our cultural values which say 'No cutting hair'.









But the photos that used to be linked in your siggy show your children with their hair cut.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

What if they got an infection and were permanantly scarred?

What if they get an infection and are permanantely scarred from falling while playing, am I supposed to limit their activities because of the "what if's"?

I *will not* tell my children what they can or can not do with _their_ bodies.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

I've never been damaged by plucking yet and I have been doing it since I was about 12yrs old.
I've been plucking and shaving since the age of 9 or 10... no damage yet. (i'm a very hairy person... i do pluck my brows, but i've grown to love the leg and armpit hair lol - which brings me to another point i forgot to make - my children are exposed to "natural bodies" and hopefully that will have a lasting impression on them... but it would still be their choice to shave or not)


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:

I've never been damaged by plucking yet and I have been doing it since I was about 12yrs old.
Me neither. I wax once a week and pluck intermittently. Never a problem.


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## azzuranotte (Dec 18, 2004)

My first response was no absolutely not. Then I realized I started shaving at 11. So if dd wanted to shave at 11 I'd say yes. If she wanted to wax facial hair that she was uncomfortable I'd say yes. If she wanted to wax her legs... she'd have to find the money to pay for it, because that's pretty expensive. I suppose we could buy the stuff and do it and that would be cheaper. I tried to wax myself once, but it was painful enough not to want to do it again.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

:


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## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
I've been plucking and shaving since the age of 9 or 10... no damage yet. (i'm a very hairy person... i do pluck my brows, but i've grown to love the leg and armpit hair lol)

Oh yep... no shaving injuries yet either. I have never ever ever even knicked myself. I have kind of expected it by now , but nope.

I also use magic powder for hair removal. No injuries from that either.

AND... I have never needed to receive therapy for my early shaving/plucking experiences either.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

It depends.

If my daughter had a unibrow that was embarrassing her, yes I would allow her. If she just wanted to look like a Bratz doll the answer would be no. It could be revisited when she's older, say 16 or so.








:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrazyRED*
But the photos that used to be linked in your siggy show your children with their hair cut.









It is cut when there is a death in the family, such as a parent/grandparent/sibling.

ETA: Maybe instead of questioning all my posts you should just ask about my culture. I have learned about others, I don't think it's too difficult to ask you to at least respect mine.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27*
It depends.

If my daughter had a unibrow that was embarrassing her, yes I would allow her. *If she just wanted to look like a Bratz doll the answer would be no.* It could be revisited when she's older, say 16 or so.








:

It is that type of stereotype of 'woman/female' that I am against and will not advocate for my daughters to try and look like that. I want my children to have a healthy sense of their bodies.


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## calicokatt (Mar 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
okay... i totally understand why some girls would want to wax. And I understand letting themas well. It just makes me sad that young girls already feel this need to conform to a certain standatd of beauty. thats all.

I see nothing at all wrong with wanting to fit in and be beautiful at 11 years old. In fact, I find it extremely NORMAL. My oldest dd is 11, and she shaves her armpits, entirely by her choice. If she came to me and asked for some waxing, I would certainly allow her to do it, so long as she paid for it. It is a luxury I don't do for myself, but if she desires it, she is welcome to earn it. I think it takes a maturity level that most 11 year olds don't yet have to be satisfied with one's own body without alterations, and some women never WILL be satisfied with them.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

I do not personally shave, wax, pluck, or wear make-up. I never have. My children have grown up seeing me with hairy armpits and legs. They also saw just about everyone else they knew relatively hairless. Trust me when I say, they will not only be embarrassed about their own body hair, *but they will be absolutely mortified about yours*, too!









So, we had a lot of conversations about my body hair and why I don't remove it. And a lot of the kids saying as I reached for an item on a tall shelf, "_Maaaaaaaaaaa_! Gaaawd! Your armpits! Eeew! let me get that and put your arm down!" Or, seeing me in a tanktop gettong ready to venture out in public, "_Maaaaaaaa_! Gaaaawd! Put some thing with sleeves on!" So, a lot of conversations about body hair and self-confidence and societal norms and blah blah blah.
My oldest dd, when she turned 12 or 13 I think, wanted to wax her eyebrows just a tiny bit for shape and to shave her legs.

Fine with me.

My oldest ds, around 16, decided that not only was he not going to cut his hair or shave his beard, he wasn't going to ever _comb_ it again either.

Fine with me.

My third ds at 13 decided that he wasn't going to cut his hair, but wear it in braids, and go to the barber to shape up the edges.

Fine with me.

My 4th dd at 14 decided that not only did she want to wax her eyebrows, she wanted to wax them ultra-thin (you know, the "surprised" look ^^)

Okay, _not_ so fine with me







, but it was more than fine with her so _I_ got over it.

My 12 y/o ds likes his head shaved and wants to go to the barber shop every week.

Fine with me.

10 y/o dd likes her fingernails long, her hair curled, and can't wait until she's old enough to wear make-up, but she loves her thick eyebrows and spends time each morning brushing them into shape.

Fine with me.

I expect, as they grow and mature and come into their own, they'll figure out what makes them feel confident and attractive, or they'll figure out what really doesn't matter to them, whether it means shaving or hairy or dying or waxing or tattoing or piercing or not combing their hair and never wearing make-up or _whatever_.

Fine with me.









ETA, I did wax that one eyebrow once, but it made me cry and I wouldn't do it again, no matter how much wine you give me!


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Off Topic: What tribe are you from MITB? Although I don't follow as I should, I'm part Alaskan Aleut. I remember when I was very small and we lived in Alaska there was a death and every one had ashes on their faces and cut hair.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It is cut when there is a death in the family, such as a parent/grandparent/sibling.

ETA: Maybe instead of questioning all my posts you should just ask about my culture. I have learned about others, I don't think it's too difficult to ask you to at least respect mine.

I asked a simple question, and there was no disrespect.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I wonder how many of the people who claim that they would say no way to an 11yo asking for a wax actually have, or have had, an 11yo daughter. Like I said earlier in this thread, as much as I'd like to look at my 11yo and say "but she's still a little girl" she's really far too grown up, and not in a "she's experienced too much life" kind of way. She's just grown up. She's still young, yes, but she's not a little girl. It makes me sad. I wish that she was still a little girl, but she's not. Thankfully she's not yet asked to shave or wax any part of her body, but when she does it will not be my place to tell her that she's not allowed. It IS her body, afterall.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

And one more question that I was thinking about. What if your 11yo dd was overweight. She was being teased by the kids at school because she had a weight problem and she decided that she wanted to start eating healthier and join a gym. Would you let her? If she was doing it simply because she was being teased and for cosmetic reasons, not because of health issues?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

I was actually thinking something along the same lines.

For those mamas who wouldn't want/allow their child to alter their appearance, is it fine for them to have braces. It is a way to alter their appearance, but isn't medically necessary.


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Im positive this thread got started by numom because i posted over a month ago about taking my 11 year old niece with me to get her eyebrows done & numom had something to say about it
(the thread was me posting about my oldest daughter getting a bird & numom tried to take it off topic.. so i think its funny she got snippy about this thread going off topic)

but whatever

my niece is 11.. her mom started letting her get them waxed about a year ago.
she was always a very hairy kid.. her biodad is italian & her mom dark hair & olive skin also.
when she was little she had hair on the tops of her ears, middle of her back, & upper forehead. as she got older that all thinned out & lightened up.. but then the eyebrows started. she started growing a thick bushy unibrow. She asked her mom to help her pluck it & they did that a few months. then it got were it was taking lots of time keeping her with 2 eyebrows ..it was also pretty painfull..so she asked if she could get it waxxed.so Sil took her & got it waxxed.
My niece now gets it done every month or 2 & plucks the strays inbetween waxxes.
my sil always makes sure to tell them to give her a natural look & they always have.

my niece also started getting upper lip hair.. it is dark.. but luckily not too thick.. when that started growing she asked her mom what to do about it (as in best way to get rid of it) & they decided my sil could wax that for her.. so now shes done that a few times

my niece is very self confident..no need to be feeling sorry for her.

i did not get anything waxxed untill i was maybe 20? but i am not very hairy face wise. but i did start shaving at 13 & my mom gave me such a hard time about it.which wasent about trying to teach me about self confidence..
she was a mom who constantly dyed her hair,styled it, permed it, wore too much makeup, took diet pills & went on crash diets, always complained she was fat..

I am a very self confident person. I have been many sizes the last 9 years..
im 5'6
ive been 105 awhile , with everyone telling me i was too thin,120 ,135,155
& now 170 & being told by some i need to start watching my weight

IMO i looked good at 105,120,135,155 & i look good now
ive had long hair,short hair,inbetween
i love my dark hair..i only dye it in the summer when the sun lightens it & gives it an orangy tint
i shave, i wear makeup sometimes , but i look great without it also.i have very pretty skin
i wear contacts, but i also wear glasses..i have 4 pairs..they are like accessories to me








i have a cap on my front tooth..i could have left it with the big chip..but choose not too
i think the assumption that if you do things like this..that you must have low self esteem is wrong

i have awhile till my girls are 11..but if they ask to shave..or wax then. then that is their decision


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki Christina*
Im positive this thread got started by numom because i posted over a month ago about taking my 11 year old niece with me to get her eyebrows done & numom had something to say about it
(the thread was me posting about my oldest daughter getting a bird & numom tried to take it off topic.. so i think its funny she got snippy about this thread going off topic)

but whatever


Welcome, we are a small but elite crowd.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes. I will also teach my children about our cultural values which say 'No cutting hair'.









Ahhh, interesting.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
Welcome, we are a small but *elite* crowd.









Yeah, I do miss the [g]olden days of MDC. I have noticed on some of these types of threads the very thing numom and others are against occuring to our own children. Happy to know some truly are into NFL.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

come again?


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

This is fun. I keep refreshing the page until this thread explodes!


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Wow. Fifteen pages of outrage about eyebrow waxing, and 6 about the massacre in Qana. Hmmm.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I didn't see a massacre in Qana thread, I'll go look for it though. Children are starving in the streets, yet I found reason to argue with my husband over dinner today.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I've thought deeply about both issues, and I have decided

Massacre - bad!

Waxing - okay!


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

found the thread.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I was actually thinking something along the same lines.

For those mamas who wouldn't want/allow their child to alter their appearance, is it fine for them to have braces. It is a way to alter their appearance, but isn't medically necessary.

Well I had braces, and if you had seen my teeth beforehand, you would know why. My father was given the choice of braces as a teen and decided not to. He now regrets it.

My teeth were (and his teeth are) an absolute mess. So even if it's not medically necessary, if it helps boost my child's self confidence and prevents him/her from being teased mercilessly, I am all for it.

When it's not about embarrasment but trying to look cool because all the dolls look like, excuse my language, hoochies, that is not ok in my book.

But I don't have an 11 year old girl. So I guess my opinion doesn't count.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

I have a uni-brow and I don't care. I don't remember ever being teased about it. It wasn't until I was an adult that I started plucking it. Sometimes I got it waxed. Now I just might grab the offending hairs between my finger nails if I notice my uni-brow and decided it's looking a little thick.

So far my older kids do not carry this trait. My mom thinks the baby has one, but I don't know how she can tell. The baby barely has any eye brows. However, if one of my kids wanted to get their eyebrow waxed because of something like a unibrow I'd let them.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DBZ*
I have a uni-brow and I don't care. I don't remember ever being teased about it. It wasn't until I was an adult that I started plucking it. Sometimes I got it waxed. Now I just might grab the offending hairs between my finger nails if I notice my uni-brow and decided it's looking a little thick.

So far my older kids do not carry this trait. My mom thinks the baby has one, but I don't know how she can tell. The baby barely has any eye brows. However, if one of my kids wanted to get their eyebrow waxed because of something like a unibrow I'd let them.


Hmmm Unibrowed baby? Isn't that like Maggie Simpson's Arch Nemesis??


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yeah, I do miss the [g]olden days of MDC. I have noticed on some of these types of threads the very thing numom and others are against occuring to our own children. Happy to know some truly are into NFL.

















:







:








:







:







:







:







:







:







:







:







:







:







:
You are a nut MitB


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yeah, I do miss the [g]olden days of MDC. I have noticed on some of these types of threads the very thing numom and others are against occuring to our own children. Happy to know some truly are into NFL.









I wish I "got it" but I don't! somebody?


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27*
Well I had braces, and if you had seen my teeth beforehand, you would know why. My father was given the choice of braces as a teen and decided not to. He now regrets it.

My teeth were (and his teeth are) an absolute mess. So even if it's not medically necessary, if it helps boost my child's self confidence and prevents him/her from being teased mercilessly, I am all for it.

When it's not about embarrasment but trying to look cool because all the dolls look like, excuse my language, hoochies, that is not ok in my book.

But I don't have an 11 year old girl. So I guess my opinion doesn't count.

I didn't mean that if you didn't have an 11yo daughter that your opinion didn't count. I meant that until you have an 11yo daughter you don't truly know what it's like to have one and that while they seem like little girls from afar, to actually raise one is a whole different ballpark and all the things that I thought I'd do or not do when my babies were babies are not the same things that I actually do now that they are growing up.









And who says that wanting to wax ones eyebrows is about looking like little hoochie dolls? I think those who are in favor of it are much more in favor of it because of the exact same reason that you got your teeth fixed. Because sometimes it IS about embarrassment and being teased mercilessly. And, even if my dd, who isn't hairy enough to be teased about it, wanted to do it, well, it's HER hair to mess with, not mine.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Not against it at all.

It's not like the mother is saying "C'mon honey....let's take care of those caterpillers on your face! I'll buy you ice cream after-wards! Please....it really doesn't look nice. You'd have such a pretty face if only..." yk?

Kelly

ETA: I'd like to add that I don't like how the question was worded....._Should_ 11 yo girls get their eyebrows waxed. It depends if they want to, and that should have been thrown in there somewhere....I mean, I guess it's implied, but still....Saying "Yes, 11 yo girls should get their brows waxed" seems off to me.

And its also sexist--plenty of men get their brows waxed. I'd let ds if he wanted to.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I started plucking my (very pale) unibrow at 12... this doesn't seem much different to me.









Wait, and how exactly is eyebrow waxing "hoochie mama" stuff? I do it because it opens up my lovely sea-green eyes.







:

But, while we're on the subject, mamas, don't let your daughters get waxed by drunk beauticians. I'm still traumatized from my last waxing.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette*
I've thought deeply about both issues, and I have decided

Massacre - bad!

Waxing - okay!

I thought you said Mascara - bad LOL


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
I thought you said Mascara - bad LOL









I thought the same thing for a second.









If I can jump in on this thread, I have to say that I tend to agree more with the MITB POV than the other POV.. I am all about embracing what I naturally have an encouraging my daughters (don't have any B"H yet) to do the same). I am not trying to judge anyone who thinks otherwise, but that's my $.02.


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## Thalia (Apr 9, 2003)

I didn't vote on the poll because of the way it was worded. But IF I had an 11-year old daughter and IF she was being mercilessly teased about her uni-brow at school and IF it was hurting her feelilngs and IF she came to me and asked if she could have it waxed, I would say yes. But I would probably want her to try plucking at home first.

I would be much more concerned about the emotional and verbal abuse kids can inflict on one another than the waxing. It is one thing for an adult to handle daily insults and teasing; it is an entirely different thing for a child to have to handle it. While no parent can control the behavior of other children, I would want my kids to know that if they need my help to defuse an abusive situation at school, I am there for them, especially if my kid just wanted to pluck her own eyebrow hairs.

My parents protected my brother that way when he was being emotionally tortured at school. They eventually had to have my dad find an address in a different school district so that my brother could switch schools. Eventually they found him a charter school that he loved and was safe at, but it took two years. If my brother could have stopped the abuse just by plucking his eyebrows, he would have.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
But, while we're on the subject, mamas, don't let your daughters get waxed by drunk beauticians. I'm still traumatized from my last waxing.









:


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamillet*
You mean _your_ cultural values.

Children can and will think for themselves, especially teens!

she said "our" so I imagine her kids are part of her culture...especially at 11. I know mykids are part of "our" culture.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunshinestarr*
If I can jump in on this thread, I have to say that I tend to agree more with the MITB POV than the other POV.. I am all about embracing what I naturally have an encouraging my daughters (don't have any B"H yet) to do the same). I am not trying to judge anyone who thinks otherwise, but that's my $.02.

I'm not intending to single you out, sunshinestarr







but I'm having difficulty understanding this kind of polarization. There's a difference between allowing an eleven year old this kind of control over their body, and advocating conformation to anything.

It boggles my mind that there are those willing to control their child's grooming habits when they don't line up with the parent's principles. I desire for my child to share my thoughts on many things, including how we're all pretty excellent just the way we are but I'm not willing to force my child to see things my way or do what I would do, not for something like this. There is so much more room to teach and share my views if I'm not laying down the law about which hair they can or cannot remove.


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I have been raising my children from birth to be self-confident and have a strong sense of self-worth, so, the chance of them coming to me saying something like the above is slim.

from what ive seen the majority of your posts on mothering have an argumentative or judgemental tone to them. I have a hard time believing that these are traits you dont have IRL

judgemental + argumentative do not = self confidence & self worth to me


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

I agree, if we are trying to teach our kids to think for themselves, allow some freedom and teach self-worth, then they want to do something we disagree with, so we tell them no, live with it, isn't that sending mixed messages.

Why not trust that our daughters know what is best for their bodies and their situation? Why not allow them to make a mistake and learn from it if need be? Why not be suportive NO MATTER WHAT they decide to do, whether we agree or disagree.

If the daughter feels bullied or picked on, I'm all for sitting down and discussing it, but if waxing her eyebrows makes her feel better about the situation or herself, then why not go for it, teach her to take some control.

They really need to learn to think for themselves, even if it means making a mistake. You are not doing your kids any favors by imposing all your own body image beliefs on them, they have to learn them for themselves, go through their own experiences, come to their own conclusions.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggi315*
They really need to learn to think for themselves, even if it means making a mistake. You are not doing your kids any favors by imposing all your own body image beliefs on them, they have to learn them for themselves, go through their own experiences, come to their own conclusions.











Very nicely worded. I am finding more and more as my children get older that they need to be given the opportunity to make their own decisions and learn to function without me looking over their shoulder. I am doing them no favors by not giving them the room to learn by experiencing things in life.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggi315*









I agree, if we are trying to teach our kids to think for themselves, allow some freedom and teach self-worth, then they want to do something we disagree with, so we tell them no, live with it, isn't that sending mixed messages.

Why not trust that our daughters know what is best for their bodies and their situation? Why not allow them to make a mistake and learn from it if need be? Why not be suportive NO MATTER WHAT they decide to do, whether we agree or disagree.

If the daughter feels bullied or picked on, I'm all for sitting down and discussing it, but if waxing her eyebrows makes her feel better about the situation or herself, then why not go for it, teach her to take some control.

They really need to learn to think for themselves, even if it means making a mistake. You are not doing your kids any favors by imposing all your own body image beliefs on them, they have to learn them for themselves, go through their own experiences, come to their own conclusions.











I completely agree with this. The only way our children are going to grow and become stronger individuals is if we let them have control over aspects of their environment and their bodies. We can do all we can to teach them, but they have to be able to make a mistake and learn from it. They have to decide if something is right for them. In this case, if waxing an eyebrow that will grow back in a matter of weeks is the right thing to do.

Honestly, moms, it's hair! It will grow back. Just because you, as the mom, don't shave, wax, pluck, or whatever because it isn't right for you, doesn't mean it isn't right for your daughter. She is not you. She is her own person or at least trying to be her own person. Waxing an eyebrow is not the end of the world.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma_goldman*
I wish I "got it" but I don't! somebody?

I don't get it either.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
I don't get it either.

Oh good. I really thought it was me and that I was missing something. Good to know that I am not *that* dumb.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yeah, I do miss the [g]olden days of MDC. I have noticed on some of these types of threads the very thing numom and others are against occuring to our own children. Happy to know some truly are into NFL.









MamaInTheBoonies, that makes four of us who admit publicly we don't get what you mean, please explain.

Thanks!


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
MamaInTheBoonies, that makes four of us who admit publicly we don't get what you mean, please explain.

Thanks!

I'll make five.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

really? You really don't "get" it. I "think" she means that there are an awful lot of people on a Natural Family Living Board that have children doing lots of unatural things...to me its the same as saying, if my 121 year old wanted to eat McDonalds every day I would let her....


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
really? You really don't "get" it. I "think" she means that there are an awful lot of people on a Natural Family Living Board that have children doing lots of unatural things...to me its the same as saying, if my 121 year old wanted to eat McDonalds every day I would let her....

Well, if my 121 year old had lived long enough to decide that she wanted McDonalds every day, who am I to stop her?









Seriously though, we live in a society where ALL sorts of things are unnatural. I listed a menagerie of things that we accept as normal that are not natural. Braces, glasses, mascarra, fruit snacks, cars, computers, hair color, tattoos and body piercing, even Listerine is not natural but we're not jumping all over people who use any of those things. Come on now. Why are we picking on eyebrow waxing?


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

If my child lived to be 121 then she could do whatever she wants.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Why are we picking on eyebrow waxing?

Because it lets some folks feel superior and "crunchier than thou," apparently.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
really? You really don't "get" it. I "think" she means that there are an awful lot of people on a Natural Family Living Board that have children doing lots of unatural things...to me its the same as saying, if my 121 year old wanted to eat McDonalds every day I would let her....

funny, i thought that noncoercive parenting and respecting people's physical autonomy fit right in with the NFL philosophy...








:


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## christiab (Jan 13, 2004)

I *wish* someone had discussed waxing w/ me!!! I had a unibrow until I went to college. I look so much better now that my eyes aren't covered by caterpillars.

As long as it's not a permanent change like surgery, I don't have a problem w/ a teen wanting to beautify. (Waxing, shaving, light make-up)


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

So, it's okay if an 11 year old girl waxes her eyebrows to look like the Bratz dolls/Barbie, etc. but not okay to help her realize that she is truly beautiful and does not need to 'look' like a freak? My dd's attend Girl Power! and they also advocate natural beauty and the harm that comes from waxing/shaving to fit into an unrealistic ideal of the objectified/sexualized female.
I do NOT want to teach my dc that it is okay to objectify females.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Well, if my 121 year old had lived long enough to decide that she wanted McDonalds every day, who am I to stop her?









Seriously though, we live in a society where ALL sorts of things are unnatural. I listed a menagerie of things that we accept as normal that are not natural. Braces, glasses, mascarra, fruit snacks, cars, computers, hair color, tattoos and body piercing, even Listerine is not natural but we're not jumping all over people who use any of those things. Come on now. Why are we picking on eyebrow waxing?

121 is still way too young imo. 125 or older, I'm okay with.

I
Braces - cosmetic only - no, to correct a jaw malformation - yes

mascara (at 11) - no, at 121 - maybe








fruit snacks - no
cars - not so much
computers - lol for my 11 year old - no
hair color - no -
tatoos - no
body piercing - no
listerine - no
okay...I am pretty consistent...


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
Because it lets some folks feel superior and "crunchier than thou," apparently.









no, its not about feeling "crunchier than thou"...i know lots of people that switch to cloth diapers after being exposed to the idea of it here. is anyone who talks about cloth diapers also being "crunchier than thou?


----------



## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
Because it lets some folks feel superior and "crunchier than thou," apparently.









And isn't that the whole point?







:


----------



## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

There's a place around here that does "kiddie pedicure and manicures" (their words)!


----------



## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
no, its not about feeling "crunchier than thou"...i know lots of people that switch to cloth diapers after being exposed to the idea of it here. is anyone who talks about cloth diapers also being "crunchier than thou?

The use of cloth diapers has a real and measurable impact on the environment, and therefore the wider society. The size/width/thickness of one's eyebrows does not.


----------



## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
Because it lets some folks feel superior and "crunchier than thou," apparently.

















:

I think Glendora is on to something. I mentioned earlier, probably about 5 or 6 pages ago, that I could not see what all the fuss was about and that it seemed as though some were making a MUCH bugger deal about it than need be.

I did not understand why a little wax on an eyebrow was so horrible. I mean, come on, it is a tiny bit of hair that sits above the eye. I am sure I am going to have bigger battles to fight with my children than worrying about some freaking hair over the eye.

Having said that, the only explanation that seems to make sense is what she (Glendora) said. I have noticed that this board sometimes does have a bit of competition to it with respect to crunchiness. It is not overwhelming, but is something I have noted at times.

So there, you win. You can be crunchier, but I choose to not act as a dictator over someone else's body. I want my children to have choices and know that their wants and desires count for something, even if they do not always get what they want. But I am going to save the power of veto for a much bigger and more significant battle. Not over a tiny patch of hair that will regrow.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
It boggles my mind that there are those willing to *control their child's grooming habit*s when they don't line up with the parent's principles.

How would anyone 'control' another's actions? My dd has been making her own money for quite some time. You have to be 18 or older in order to get eyebrows waxed at the salon. I am pretty sure an 11 year old with money can buy her own tweezers. My dc know they do not need my permission when it comes to their bodies. And, yes, both my 10 year olds called another adult and paid to have their own ears pierced.

There is a huge difference between teaching my dc about natural beauty and 'controlling' their bodies.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Come on now. Why are we picking on eyebrow waxing?

Because it objectifies women and natural beauty. I am not talking about uni-brows or neanderthal hairy-beings, but a beautiful girl who has no need to look like Jennifer Lopez.

ETA: I don't need my ds to look like Adam Beach nor Litefoot, neither.


----------



## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
121 is still way too young imo. 125 or older, I'm okay with.

I
Braces - cosmetic only - no, to correct a jaw malformation - yes

mascara (at 11) - no, at 121 - maybe








fruit snacks - no
cars - not so much
computers - lol for my 11 year old - no
hair color - no -
tatoos - no
body piercing - no
listerine - no
okay...I am pretty consistent...

Here is the problem I see with that and please beleive that I do not mean ANY disrespect. With all of the no's, your child may (or may not) overcompensate for all the no's when he or she turns 18.

At age 18, "Mom never let me have fruit snacks. But man are they good." Child then proceeds to WAY overindulge in "forbidden" item. I really think that moderation is the key. With moderation, we are teaching our children how to indulge in healthy ways. Your child never had a twinkie? He or she may try one at some time and want to eat a whole box every 2 days b/c he or she likes them so much. If you let your child have a freaking twinkie every once in a while growing up, the allure and possibility of overindulging should be reduced (IMO).


----------



## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

If Listerine isn't okay, what about toothpaste? Toothbrushing? Having cavities filled?


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
And, yes, both my 10 year olds called another adult and paid to have their own ears pierced.
.

Does this mean that your children have low self-esteem and no self confidence then since they wanted their ears pierced?


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
If Listerine isn't okay, what about toothpaste? Toothbrushing? Having cavities filled?

my childern don't use listerine, i don't either. Listerine contains alcohol. we do use natural toothpaste and see the dentist.


----------



## UptownZoo (May 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Because it objectifies women and natural beauty. I am not talking about uni-brows or neanderthal hairy-beings, but a beautiful girl who has no need to look like Jennifer Lopez.

ETA: I don't need my ds to look like Adam Beach nor Litefoot, neither.

It's not about what YOU need.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

326 posts on an eyebrow waxing thread?

nah, we're not an opinionated group....


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
my childern don't use listerine, i don't either. Listerine contains alcohol. we do use natural toothpaste and see the dentist.









: Mostly we use baking soda for brushing teeth.







The crest toothpaste I used in Health and Healing was from the food shelf.


----------



## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
326 posts on an eyebrow waxing thread?

nah, we're not an opinionated group....

*shrugs* Opinionated humans. It happens. Look at the Middle East.


----------



## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
So, it's okay if an 11 year old girl waxes her eyebrows to look like the Bratz dolls/Barbie, etc. but not okay to help her realize that she is truly beautiful and does not need to 'look' like a freak?

Who who who is advocating what you're suggesting up there? I haven't seen it yet. Why make it so extreme?

There have been those on this thread who have said in one way or another that they would not allow their 11 year old to wax their eyebrows. That's what I meant when I said this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
It boggles my mind that there are those willing to control their child's grooming habits when they don't line up with the parent's principles.

Sorry that I wasn't more clear.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I read this thread and all I see are attacks on those of us who refuse to objectfy our daughters. The rest of the replies that are all for waxing, only say they do not want their kid teased. Rather than actually help your child build self-esteem and self-confidence, it seems parents don't want to have to work hard, but just let their little girl get waxed and hope the teasing stops.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
It boggles my mind that there are those willing to control their child's *grooming habits* when they don't line up with the parent's principles.
Waxing is NOT a natural/normal grooming habit in our family.


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

I haven't read anything that I would call an attack...

Whereas you have made comments about how our children wouldn't ever feel the need to ask to do these things to their body if they were raised to be self confident... or something to that extent.

But didn't you just say two of your kids have their ears pierced? But I swear you said that you can't see your kids asking to do anything to their body because they have a lot of self esteem.


----------



## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithhopelove*
I haven't read anything that I would call an attack...

Whereas you have made comments about how our children wouldn't ever feel the need to ask to do these things to their body if they were raised to be self confident... or something to that extent.

Oh, now it means that those mama's don't want to put in the "hard" work of making the 11 year old find another willing adult.

Or, something to that extent.


----------



## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Waxing is NOT a natural/normal grooming habit in our family.

The fact of the matter, whether you're willing to address it or not, is that your beliefs/ideals/natural grooming habits are not automatically or necessarily going to be those of your children. No matter what kind of parenting perfection you or anyone else achieves, these offspring of ours are going to have minds of their own, and hopefully use them. Of course we're all hoping (I would assume) that our kids embrace the ideals that we hold dear...but just...what if they don't? Then what?

This isn't a battle between those refusing to objectify our daughters and those who are "all for waxing." Again I wonder, why look at it from such an extreme viewpoint?


----------



## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
How would anyone 'control' another's actions? My dd has been making her own money for quite some time. You have to be 18 or older in order to get eyebrows waxed at the salon. I am pretty sure an 11 year old with money can buy her own tweezers. My dc know they do not need my permission when it comes to their bodies. And, yes, both my 10 year olds called another adult and paid to have their own ears pierced.

There is a huge difference between teaching my dc about natural beauty and 'controlling' their bodies.

see but you are agreeing with newmom who is saying that she would not allow it and would control her child's actions.

The thing is we never really know what our kids will do, the teen years they reject ALOT.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
The fact of the matter, whether you're willing to address it or not, is that your beliefs/ideals/natural grooming habits are not automatically or necessarily going to be those of your children. No matter what kind of parenting perfection you or anyone else achieves, these offspring of ours are going to have minds of their own, and hopefully use them. Of course we're all hoping (I would assume) that our kids embrace the ideals that we hold dear...but just...what if they don't? Then what?

How is raising my dc to have a strong sense of self-worth, confidence and esteem going to cause them to doubt their intelligent decision making?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *secretresistance*
This isn't a battle between those refusing to objectify our daughters and those who are "all for waxing." Again I wonder, why look at it from such an extreme viewpoint?

Waxing ones eyebrows nor shaving ones legs does not make a woman more beautiful. Beauty comes from within. I see nothing wrong with instilling that same belief and everything wrong with advocating that beauty is only skin deep.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
The thing is we never really know what our kids will do, the teen years they reject ALOT.

I am more concerned with what kind of adults they will become.


----------



## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
How is raising my dc to have a strong sense of self-worth, confidence and esteem going to cause them to doubt their intelligent decision making?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. I don't think raising them with a strong sense of self-worth etc. is going to cause them to doubt anything. I think being a younger person has its own challenges, and that people who aren't me won't necessarily do things the exact way I would.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Waxing ones eyebrows nor shaving ones legs does not make a woman more beautiful. Beauty comes from within. I see nothing wrong with instilling that same belief and everything wrong with advocating that beauty is only skin deep.

Then I'm not sure how we're disagreeing...


----------



## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

MITB- I am sure that with your beliefs, you have done a wonderful job of instilling self-worth and self-confidence into your children. That really seems to be important to you and it should be.

What I fail to understand is how the altercation of the ears by putting a hole in them is much different than eye brow waxing? Yet you mentioned 2 of your DC getting ears pierced at age 10.

You said that children with a healthy sense of self-worth and confidence would not feel the need to alter his or her body in an unnatural manner. You said that you do all you can to instill this in your children. But yet they still wanted ear piercings.

In a previous post, you also mentioned the dangers of permanent scarring as a result of tweezing and waxing. What about the permanent damage that can occur as a result of piercing. Why is one OK and the other not?


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2happymamas*
MITB- I am sure that with your beliefs, you have done a wonderful job of instilling self-worth and self-confidence into your children. That really seems to be important to you and it should be.

What I fail to understand is how the altercation of the ears by putting a hole in them is much different than eye brow waxing? Yet you mentioned 2 of your DC getting ears pierced at age 10.

In a previous post, you also mentioned the dangers of permanent scarring as a result of tweezing and waxing. What about the permanent damage that can occur as a result of piercing. Why is one OK and the other not?

I've asked this twice so far but yet no answer... still waiting cause I really am truly curious why the difference.


----------



## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithhopelove*
I've asked this twice so far but yet no answer... still waiting cause I really am truly curious why the difference.

I'm also waiting... I was going to ask the same thing, until I saw that you already did.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2happymamas*
MITB- I am sure that with your beliefs, you have done a wonderful job of instilling self-worth and self-confidence into your children. That really seems to be important to you and it should be.

What I fail to understand is how the altercation of the ears by putting a hole in them is much different than eye brow waxing? Yet you mentioned 2 of your DC getting ears pierced at age 10.

You said that children with a healthy sense of self-worth and confidence would not feel the need to alter his or her body in an unnatural manner. You said that you do all you can to instill this in your children. But yet they still wanted ear piercings.

In a previous post, you also mentioned the dangers of permanent scarring as a result of tweezing and waxing. What about the permanent damage that can occur as a result of piercing. Why is one OK and the other not?

FTR, I was not okay with my kids getting their ears pierced. Yes, they went against my wishes and had their Aunt take them. They did learn the 'hard way' as both ended up with infections. I am a big advocate for GD and would never punish my kids. Yes, I guess I did 'punish' my sister for taking them, as she got an earful. She promised to never do anything permanant like that again, but she has already died their hair bright blue and bright red.







That is a whole other thread, though.


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

But, how can you say that your kids wouldn't do anything to their body because they have wonderful self esteem. They did something to their body. So according to your own words... it would be your fault then right? You said earlier that it would be the parents fault if they even asked to do something like wax.


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I read this thread and all I see are attacks on those of us who refuse to objectfy our daughters. The rest of the replies that are all for waxing, only say they do not want their kid teased..

Wow, that surprises me, because what I heave read is a lot of if it was important enough for my child I would probably say it was okay, and you attacking them for this. Not them attacking you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Rather than actually help your child build self-esteem and self-confidence, it seems parents don't want to have to work hard, but just let their little girl get waxed and hope the teasing stops.

Case in point the rest of your post. No one said "Oh sure the first mention of eyebrow waxing I'll be calling the salon" it's offensive that you would make the leap from those who are saying they would let their children make their own choices to lazy parenting who don't want to bother working hard to boost their children's self esteem.


----------



## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
FTR, I was not okay with my kids getting their ears pierced. Yes, they went against my wishes and had their Aunt take them. They did learn the 'hard way' as both ended up with infections. I am a big advocate for GD and would never punish my kids. Yes, I guess I did 'punish' my sister for taking them, as she got an earful. She promised to never do anything permanant like that again, but she has already died their hair bright blue and bright red.







That is a whole other thread, though.

But what about the self-confidence and self-worth. If those two things were present and strong, according to what you have previously stated, they would not want to do anything to thier bodies that was not natural. Yet they have opted to peirce ears and color hair.

I am sure your children have self-confidence and self-worth. I simply ask you to be mindful that a young woman who desires her eyebrows waxed may indeed have self-confidence and self-worth, too.

Wanting those things done is not indictive of soem problem with confidence and worth. That has been my main point during this thread. Please see that.


----------



## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithhopelove*
But, how can you say that your kids wouldn't do anything to their body because they have wonderful self esteem. They did something to their body. So according to your own words... it would be your fault then right? You said earlier that it would be the parents fault if they even asked to do something like wax.

Exactly.

If the kids were instilled with so much self confidence and self worth...why at 10, would they feel the need to put a hole in their body?


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithhopelove*
But, how can you say that your kids wouldn't do anything to their body because they have wonderful self esteem. They did something to their body. So according to your own words... it would be your fault then right? You said earlier that it would be the parents fault if they even asked to do something like wax.

Obviously, parents have no control over how their children feel. It has been proven over and over in this thread that having other children tease you is just as damaging to one's self-esteem. I am saying that instead of saying, "Yeah, we'll wax your eyebrows to stop the teasing," is unrealistic and does not help with the underlying issues. It won't magically heal the hurt feelings. The girl is not going to go to school and all of a sudden everyone's gonna look at her waxed eyebrows and say, "Wow, you are beautiful, can I be your friend? I'll never tease you again!"


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Exactly.

If the kids were instilled with so much self confidence and self worth...why at 10, would they feel the need to put a hole in their body?

In case you didn't know, once a person has self-confidence, does not mean it can be broken down again and again. Apparently, my children did not think what I was saying was true about the dangers of ear piercing. They learned the hard way that trying to be like the other kids is not always the safest thing to do.


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

OK then. So long as you are taking the blame for your children not having enough self confidence in order to want holes in their ears. You made it sound like your kids would never even ask to do something like that because of the way they have been raised.


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Obviously, parents have no control over how their children feel. It has been proven over and over in this thread that having other children tease you is just as damaging to one's self-esteem. I am saying that instead of saying, "Yeah, we'll wax your eyebrows to stop the teasing," is unrealistic and does not help with the underlying issues. It won't magically heal the hurt feelings. The girl is not going to go to school and all of a sudden everyone's gonna look at her waxed eyebrows and say, "Wow, you are beautiful, can I be your friend? I'll never tease you again!"

This post makes sense to me. I agree. But what has bothered me, and I feel a lot of others on this thread are your extreme statements like

Quote:

I read this thread and all I see are attacks on those of us who refuse to objectfy our daughters.
I mean really, who on earth would attack someone saying that they SHOULD be objectifying their daughter?

If you really read the post many women are saying, "yes, I wish that my daughter would not care about the pressures that society, media and peers put on her based solely on appearance. But even so I'm not going to tell her that she should ignore how all of that makes her feel and dismiss her pleas for a middle ground by refusing to compromise." that is not the same thing as attacking you because you don't want your daughter to look like a bratz doll.


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithhopelove*
OK then. So long as you are taking the blame for your children not having enough self confidence in order to want holes in their ears. You made it sound like your kids would never even ask to do something like that because of the way they have been raised.

Btw, I don't really believe this. I am just saying it because of you saying it was the parent's fault for not instilling enough confidence in their children if they decide they want to do things like this to their body.


----------



## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Obviously, parents have no control over how their children feel. It has been proven over and over in this thread that having other children tease you is just as damaging to one's self-esteem. I am saying that instead of saying, "Yeah, we'll wax your eyebrows to stop the teasing," is unrealistic and does not help with the underlying issues. It won't magically heal the hurt feelings. The girl is not going to go to school and all of a sudden everyone's gonna look at her waxed eyebrows and say, "Wow, you are beautiful, can I be your friend? I'll never tease you again!"


So....you agree that waxing the eyebrows MIGHT be acceptable under the condition that the parent understand the underlying issues? Did I glean that from there?

And can we entertain the idea that the girl *might* be ok with respect to self-esteem and confidence? Hell, she might just want her eyebrows done. I like to do my eyebrows and color my hair. I do not do it because I feel worthless without my hair colored. Trust me, I think I am pretty hot. For real, like really hot. Eyebrows waxed or not waxed. Hair colored or not colored.

I do those things for me. Not because I think someone might like me more. Not because I think someone might be my friend if I did and not be my friend if I did not.

And my sense of self-worth, confidence, and esteem do not come from how hot I think I am. That comes from within. And I would be typing a really long time if I were to spell out all the reasons I am happy with myself.

Why does it have to be so much deeper?


----------



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

I'm trying to figure out how forcing your kid to be the "hairy one" is going to boost self-esteem.

My kids know I think they're beautiful no matter how fuzzy they are, and they know I feel comfortable and happy in my fuzzy skin. Some of them feel happy being fuzzy, some of them feel happy being shaved, and my oldest dd, who started out waxing and shaving, now at 24 doesn't feel quite so compelled to do it any more. She has become comfortable with her own natural self, but _she_ had to discover that for _herself_.

I don't like to use my children to make political or ideological statements about _my_ personal perceptions of what makes a "naturally beautiful woman". I think the kind of personal strength it takes to go against society's norms and be different comes from personal growth and discovery, not from your parents lecturing you or forbidding it. I don't see it much difference between society forcing it's perception of beauty down our kids' throats than _us_ forcing _our_ perception of real beauty down our kids throats. You teach kids your principles by living them, not mandating them.

You can teach your kids your own beliefs, but forcing them to comply with yours is damaging, IMO. You can say, "Well, personally, I don't think waxing and shaving is necessary to look attractive. Women have hair, _all_ women have hair in varying degrees. This is why I don't wax/shave/wear make-up, but if it really means that much to you, you can wax or shave this or that body part, ........but you may not shave or wax this or that body part until you're older."
Let's give them some credit. If we truly raise our kids from birth to have strong self-esteem, then we have to trust that they will make the best decidions for themselves.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*

If you really read the post many women are saying, "yes, I wish that my daughter would not care about the pressures that society, media and peers put on her based solely on appearance. But even so I'm not going to tell her that she should ignore how all of that makes her feel and dismiss her pleas for a middle ground by refusing to compromise." that is not the same thing as attacking you because you don't want your daughter to look like a bratz doll.

I agree, but making fun of my parenting choices is an attack. All the wishing in the world ain't gonna change the world. It starts in the home with our own children.
When my dd was being teased at school, I didn't just deal with it at home. I brought the issue to the school and made a zero-tolerance policy for teasing/bullying students. I also helped them find grants to pay for educators to come in to the school and educate students why teasing is harmful and not acceptable.


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I think it is a sign of the kid's healthy self esteem to want to groom herself. One of the signs of depression is when people stop wanting to groom. I would not try to pressure my daughters to be hairy to further my own granola dream.


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I agree, but making fun of my parenting choices is an attack. All the wishing in the world ain't gonna change the world. It starts in the home with our own children.

Well I'm sorry if anyone made fun of you on this thread, I didn't see it, if they did, it wasn't a nice thing to do. But I don't think it's an excuse to attack people and accuse them of "objectifying their daughters" because they simply feel differently than you do.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
I think it is a sign of the kid's healthy self esteem to want to groom herself. One of the signs of depression is when people stop wanting to groom. I would not try to pressure my daughters to be hairy to further my own granola dream.

Women who teach their dd's that hairy equals depressed and ugly. That is cruel.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
Well I'm sorry if anyone made fun of you on this thread, I didn't see it, if they did, it wasn't a nice thing to do. But I don't think it's an excuse to attack people and accuse them of "objectifying their daughters" because they simply feel differently than you do.

Explain how waxing an 11 year olds eyebrows in not objectifying them as females?


----------



## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Women who teach their dd's that hairy equals depressed and ugly. That is cruel.

I really don't think that that's what she meant. Lack of grooming is a legitimate sign of depression or illness, in both humans and animals.


----------



## Hatteras Gal (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Women who teach their dd's that hairy equals depressed and ugly. That is cruel.

I don't think that's what she said. She said a sign of depression is lack of interest in grooming/self-care.


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Explain how waxing an 11 year olds eyebrows in not objectifying them as females?

Tell you what you explain to me how a parent who does what you agreed to above is objectifying their daughters first, since you brought it up.

Here is my post above that you agreed with just or your reference.

Quote:

If you really read the post many women are saying, "yes, I wish that my daughter would not care about the pressures that society, media and peers put on her based solely on appearance. But even so I'm not going to tell her that she should ignore how all of that makes her feel and dismiss her pleas for a middle ground by refusing to compromise." that is not the same thing as attacking you because you don't want your daughter to look like a bratz doll.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate42*
I really don't think that that's what she meant. Lack of grooming is a legitimate sign of depression or illness, in both humans and animals.

This thread is about waxing an 11 year old girls eyebrows. I do not consider that 'healthy' grooming. It is unhealthy to want to look like Barbie/Bratz/Movie Stars.


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## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

I get my eyebrows waxed...but I have this kind of old world style of mothering (just realizing this!) where I feel it is healthy for girls to have to "wait" to do something until they have reached a certain age. I mean like it can actually be beneficial for them to want to be in the next stage of life, but to have to make it through waiting...and earning something like that. For me, waxing is something a woman does...like if she's had her moon cycle, then she can do womanly things...because to me waxing is so I feel attractive to the opposite sex, as well as myself!


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## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Explain how waxing an 11 year olds eyebrows in not objectifying them as females?

Seriously?

My SON seems to have inherited the same bushy unibrow that both my father and brother have. My brother shaves right down between his eyes with a razor just because he can't afford to wax the darn thing.

You better bet that when ds is older if he expresses his desire to rid himself of the unibrow that I'd be more than happy to take him to have it waxed, plucked, or whatever option he wanted.

So, does that mean I intend to objectify my son?


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wabi Sabi*
Seriously?

My SON seems to have inherited the same bushy unibrow that both my father and brother have. My brother shaves right down between his eyes with a razor just because he can't afford to wax the darn thing.

You better bet that when ds is older if he expresses his desire to rid himself of the unibrow that I'd be more than happy to take him to have it waxed, plucked, or whatever option he wanted.

So, does that mean I intend to objectify my son?

Yes.

Quote:

Objectification refers to the way in which one person treats another person as an object and not as a human being. This is commonly used to refer to the way the mass media, in particular advertising, is perceived by some as *portraying women as sex objects* (although this treatment now *increasingly also extends to men*).
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...e%3A+objectify

Yes, this is the definition that best fits with what I am talking about.


----------



## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
This thread is about waxing an 11 year old girls eyebrows. I do not consider that 'healthy' grooming. It is unhealthy to want to look like Barbie/Bratz/Movie Stars.

I think it has been stated over and over that this isn't about making girls (or in my case, a son LOL) look like a Bratz doll. I think that most of us are talking about a child with an unusual abundance of facial hair. Getting rid of the unibrow/mustache sure the heck isn't going to make them look like this.

Obtaining that look would require a hell of a lot more than eyebrows.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wabi Sabi*
I think it has been stated over and over that this isn't about making girls (or in my case, a son LOL) look like a Bratz doll. I think that most of us are talking about a child with an unusual abundance of facial hair.

I am NOT talking about a child with an overabundance of facial hair.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Explain how waxing an 11 year olds eyebrows in not objectifying them as females?

Explain how putting holes into the ears of a *10 year old* is not objectifying them as females?


----------



## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
This thread is about waxing an 11 year old girls eyebrows. I do not consider that 'healthy' grooming. It is unhealthy to want to look like Barbie/Bratz/Movie Stars.

The one time I waxed my eyebrows, everyone thought I looked just like Angelina Jolie. It was amazing! The transformation between waxed and unwaxed was astonishing. I went from looking like a natural red head w/ very pale skin, lot's of freckles, very little make-up, a litttle bit o' chub, not huge boobs and small lips to a Freakin' Hottie!!!!

Man, I have to get my brows waxed again.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Explain how putting holes into the ears of a *10 year old* is not objectifying them as females?









: Read my post about it. I already stated that it was not okay with me, and my ds also got BOTH his ears pierced.


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## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I am NOT talking about a child with an overabundance of facial hair.

Who are you to decide what an overabundance is though? Maybe to this child they feel they have an overabundance. Maybe you wouldn't agree.


----------



## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
The one time I waxed my eyebrows, everyone thought I looked just like Angelina Jolie. It was amazing! The transformation between waxed and unwaxed was astonishing. I went from looking like a natural red head w/ very pale skin, lot's of freckles, very little make-up, a litttle bit o' chub, not huge boobs and small lips to a Freakin' Hottie!!!!

Man, I have to get my brows waxed again.

But would you be okay with your 11 year old daughter lookin' like A. Jolie?


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

MITB, why in the world do you keep insisting that girls who want to wax their eyebrows want to do it so that they can look like Barbie or Bratz Dolls??? I'm quite certain we've been back and forth about this. My kids don't like barbies or bratz so I'm quite certain that if they asked to be waxed it would be because it was something that _they_ wanted to do for themselves. NOT because they wanted to look like some silly doll. I think it's sad that you insist on pushing your issues onto your children.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
The one time I waxed my eyebrows, everyone thought I looked just like Angelina Jolie. It was amazing! The transformation between waxed and unwaxed was astonishing. I went from looking like a natural red head w/ very pale skin, lot's of freckles, very little make-up, a litttle bit o' chub, not huge boobs and small lips to a Freakin' Hottie!!!!

Man, I have to get my brows waxed again.

Does that explain why after my last bikini wax I felt like a porn star?


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
Does that explain why after my last bikini wax I felt like a porn star?



















You get that feeling too?


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## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

I know I didn't look like a barbie or bratz when I plucked my eyebrows at age 12. Nor did I have any desire to. Only thing I cared about was not having all these crazy wild hairs growing between my eyes. *I* didn't like them and I am thankful that my mother didn't try to talk me out of it.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
But would you be okay with your 11 year old daughter lookin' like A. Jolie?

Funny you ask that. You didn't ask it of me but I'll answer it anyhow. An older lady, a stranger, walked up to me one day and said "you have the most beautiful daughter. She resembles Angelina Jolie, actually." And I never thought OOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOO!!! And promptly ran to uglify her.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
This thread is about waxing an 11 year old girls eyebrows. I do not consider that 'healthy' grooming. It is unhealthy to want to look like Barbie/Bratz/Movie Stars.

I'd like to know how you come to the conclusion that if a 11 year old wants waxed eyeborws, that automaticly means she wants to look like Barbie/Bratz/Movie Stars?

What about an 11 year old doing it for *themselves*?


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
But would you be okay with your 11 year old daughter lookin' like A. Jolie?

The point is that getting your brows waxed will not make them look like Angelina Jolie. Or any other movie star, unless they resemble that movie star already.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Oh yeah, and I forgot to add that I'd propose to sevenkids, except that with her 7 and my 5 we'd be up to our ears in eyebrow wax


----------



## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
The point is that getting your brows waxed will not make them look like Angelina Jolie. Or any other movie star, unless they resemble that movie star already.

Dude, don't you GET IT?? Eyebrow waxing is a magical thing. It can transform the average 11yo into the neighborhood hoochie! It can make her rich and famous. It can, and will, make her a sex goddess!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Funny you ask that. You didn't ask it of me but I'll answer it anyhow. An older lady, a stranger, walked up to me one day and said "you have the most beautiful daughter. She resembles Angelina Jolie, actually." And I never thought OOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOO!!! *And promptly ran to uglify her*.

I would never teach my dc that it is okay to call ANYONE ugly.

Quote:

MITB, why in the world do you keep insisting that girls who want to wax their eyebrows want to do it so that they can look like Barbie or Bratz Dolls??? I'm quite certain we've been back and forth about this. My kids don't like barbies or bratz so I'm quite certain that if they asked to be waxed it would be because it was something that they wanted to do for themselves. NOT because they wanted to look like some silly doll. I think it's sad that you insist on pushing your issues onto your children.
I guess the feminist in me is disgusted that women are okay with objectifying little girls and themselves. Waxed/sculpted eyebrows look creepy and unnatural.


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## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Dude, don't you GET IT?? Eyebrow waxing is a magical thing. It can transform the average 11yo into the neighborhood hoochie! It can make her rich and famous. It can, and will, make her a sex goddess!

I need to get me some wax...


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Yes, MITB. My post _clearly_ stated that I taught my dd to call people ugly. Wow. Just wow.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithhopelove*
I need to get me some wax...









It's too late for you. It only works on the impressionable minds and bodies of 11yo's.


----------



## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I would never teach my dc that it is okay to call ANYONE ugly.
.

Where did that come from? She NEVER said anything about telling her child it's okay to call people ugly?!!!


----------



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add that I'd propose to sevenkids, except that with her 7 and my 5 we'd be up to our ears in eyebrow wax










Mmmmm







:


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
It's too late for you. It only works on the impressionable minds and bodies of 11yo's.

So we're all doomed? Bummer.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kelly81*
Where did that come from? She NEVER said anything about telling her child it's okay to call people ugly?!!!

Meaning myself nor my children would ever think of saying, "i would run and uglify her..."


----------



## Hatteras Gal (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I would never teach my dc that it is okay to call ANYONE ugly.
I guess the feminist in me is disgusted that women are okay with objectifying little girls and themselves. Waxed/sculpted eyebrows look creepy and unnatural.

No one mentioned anywhere that they called someone ugly.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I would never teach my dc that it is okay to call ANYONE ugly.
I guess the feminist in me is disgusted that women are okay with objectifying little girls and themselves. Waxed/sculpted eyebrows look creepy and unnatural.

My eyebrows are perfect naturally. Many times I've had people ask me where I get them done. Does this make my natural brows creepy and unnatural?


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

MITB, you're so funny


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
My eyebrows are perfect naturally. Many times I've had people ask me where I get them done. Does this make my natural brows creepy and unnatural?

You and me both.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *wende*
Funny you ask that. You didn't ask it of me but I'll answer it anyhow. An older lady, a stranger, walked up to me one day and said "you have the most beautiful daughter. She resembles Angelina Jolie, actually." And I never thought OOOOHHHHH NOOOOOOO!!! *And promptly ran to uglify her*.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubyred*
No one mentioned anywhere that they called someone ugly.

Really? I must have misread.


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I guess the feminist in me is disgusted that women are okay with objectifying little girls and themselves. Waxed/sculpted eyebrows look creepy and unnatural.

But that's your opinion, not everyone else's. And what is this obsession with eye brow waxing/tweezing? I tweeze mine because I like it, the same reason I got my nose pierced, not because I'm trying to be a sex goddess. My dh doesn't give a flip if I tweeze the strays. He doesn't even notice. Besides, not all women and girls go for the super shaped narrow look like Bratz dolls. Some of us just want to get rid of the strays and tidy things up a bit. It doesn't have to be all or nothing here.


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## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Meaning myself nor my children would ever think of saying, "i would run and uglify her..."

SAYING ulgy or uglify is WAY WAY WAY different than CALLING someone ugly, wich she _never_ did.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Really? I must have misread.

Yes, you must have.


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## Hatteras Gal (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Meaning myself nor my children would ever think of saying, "i would run and uglify her..."









Of course not.

I like to think I have some feminist in me. I wax my eyebrows. I let them grow back. I like the look either way. Sometimes I just like a change when I think they're getting a little too bushy.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Artgoddess, table for two? I must warn you, I do get this funky hair on my chin that shows up every few months. Sometimes it's quite long before I notice it. But as soon as I do see it I yank that sucker right out. Call me objectified.


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## Hatteras Gal (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
Artgoddess, table for two? I must warn you, I do get this funky hair on my chin that shows up every few months. Sometimes it's quite long before I notice it. But as soon as I do see it I yank that sucker right out. Call me objectified.

I have one that grows on my forehead. Just one lone hair, almost colorless. I always objectify myself by tweezing it out.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979*
*But that's your opinion*, not everyone else's. And what is this obsession with eye brow waxing/tweezing?

This THREAD is ABOUT waxing an 11 year old's eyebrows!!!! It's not some frikkin' obsession of mine. Of COURSE it's MY opinion.







:


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
It's too late for you. It only works on the impressionable minds and bodies of 11yo's.

Well it worked for me!!!

Act now, call within the next 15 minutes and you too can have this magic wax that will instantly transform you into the sex goddess of your (or his) fantasies!!!!

YOU can look like Angelina too!!!!
















Call 1-800-OBJECTIfy!!!! CALL NOW!!!!!!!

Yeah, I know too many letters.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

My sister gets one int he exact same place. It's our freaky mark of sisterhood. Sometimes I will notice mine and send her an email reminding her to check. I like to objectify my sister as well as my self.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Maybe you should quit conforming and make the doll manufacturers create a doll that has one long hair growing from it's forehead.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Maybe you should quit conforming and make the doll manufacturers create a doll that has one long hair growing from it's forehead.

Sweet. I'd buy that


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rubyred*







Of course not.

I like to think I have some feminist in me. I wax my eyebrows. I let them grow back. I like the look either way. Sometimes I just like a change when I think they're getting a little too bushy.

I hope you are a grown woman and not an 11 year old child. I don't give a flyin' hoot if a grown woman wants to shave, wax, pluck, chop her toes off, etc. I am talking about a child.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
Artgoddess, table for two? I must warn you, I do get this funky hair on my chin that shows up every few months. Sometimes it's quite long before I notice it. But as soon as I do see it I yank that sucker right out. Call me objectified.

Only one? You are lucky!!!

I am not even thirty and have at least 10 of those darn hairs to deal with. I get so freaking sick of pulling them out.

I suppose we are both objectified.


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Meaning myself nor my children would ever think of saying, "i would run and uglify her..."

No, but creepy and unnatural are perfectly acceptable words to call someone.







:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I see people are more interested in making fun of my posts than having an intelligent discusion.


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
Maybe you should quit conforming and make the doll manufacturers create a doll that has one long hair growing from it's forehead.







































I am seriously cracking up while thinking about that doll. Coffee nearly came shooting out of my nose.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I thought it was going quite well.


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## kate42 (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*







: Read my post about it. I already stated that it was not okay with me, and my ds also got BOTH his ears pierced.

This is totally OT, but do your kids still have the earrings? Did you make them take them out?

And for the posters saying that 11 is too young and they will revisit the topic at 15 or 16, why is that age any different?

I think we all agree that self-esteem comes from within and we all want our children to love themselves for who they are and what they look like. However, if a child is feeling tormented because of excess hair or naked earlobes, shouldn't we help educate them on the options and honor their wishes when they make a decision?

Or, maybe we could focus on the flip side and teach our children not to ridicule another person's physical differences. That way, no one has to wax anything.


----------



## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikel1979*
No, but creepy and unnatural are perfectly acceptable words to call someone.







:









: I was thinking that same thing.


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## LovemyBoo (Oct 11, 2004)

Man, I do long for the day when people, men and women, can do whatever they think is beautiful and/or hygenic to their own body and not be judged either way for it. It'd be nice for hairy and hairless bodies, pancake boobs and perky silicone melons, long hair or a shaved head, an unmarked body or one full of tatoos, all to simply be seen as individual preference and not "ugly" or "wrong".

For some the body is a temple that should be allowed to grow and flourish with minimal disturbance. For other's it's a blank canvas, a work in progress that is ever changing with the mood of the owner.

I think most people fall somewhere in between.

Do people modify their bodies under societal pressure? They sure do. I just wish that there was no pressure from either camp. To each their own.


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## NotAMama (Jul 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Meaning myself nor my children would ever think of saying, "i would run and uglify her..."

MITB, is it hard to be this obtuse, or does it come naturally?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Really? I must have misread.

You did. She said someone said her DD looked like Angelina and she said she *never* thought to run screaming and make her "uglified". Goodness.

Anyway, I do my brows when I can and when I think about it. Right now they haven't been done in about 6 weeks. They are starting to bug me when I look in the mirror, but as of yet, none of my friends has run screaming from me. They bug ME, not my friends, not my family, not my husband. So, eventually, I will go get them waxed -- not because I think a little hot wax is going to turn me into some steamy hot sex kitten, not because my husband will jump my bones when I walk in the door with my waxed brows (though, that wouldn't be bad!







) . . . but because they are starting to annoy me.

It's not a self-confidence issue. If it were, I would never let them get to this point in the first place. It's a preference. Just like I prefer my hair long (and isn't the stereotype of long hair one of a sexy sexy woman?), and dyed a blonder shade of red than my natural auburn. I shave my legs and my pits because my legs itch when hairy and my pits stink and feel funky when hairy.

I guess I just lost my self confident feminist card, huh?


----------



## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2happymamas*





































I am seriously cracking up while thinking about that doll. Coffee nearly came shooting out of my nose.

Snot came out of my nose...gross I know... but that comment was hilarious.


----------



## Hatteras Gal (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovemyBoo*
Man, I do long for the day when people, men and women, can do whatever they think is beautiful and/or hygenic to their own body and not be judged either way for it. It'd be nice for hairy and hairless bodies, pancake boobs and perky silicone melons, long hair or a shaved head, an unmarked body or one full of tatoos, all to simply be seen as individual preference and not "ugly" or "wrong".

For some the body is a temple that should be allowed to grow and flourish with minimal disturbance. For other's it's a blank canvas, a work in progress that is ever changing with the mood of the owner.

I think most people fall somewhere in between.

Do people modify their bodies under societal pressure? They sure do. I just wish that there was no pressure from either camp. To each their own.

Very well put.


----------



## kelly81 (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate42*
This is totally OT, but do your kids still have the earrings? Did you make them take them out?


Excellent point, I am curious about this as well.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:

Objectification refers to the way in which one person treats another person as an object and not as a human being.
Allowing a child to make their own grooming decisions is pretty much the opposite of treating them as an object as opposed to a human being, wouldn't you say?







:


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

OK,
I'll bite and add my peace. Yes, MITB I do think you misread and I think you pick and pull apart people's words and misread on purpose. Then it seems to turn from being a discussion in which others are ALLOWED TO DISAGREE to a very annoying thread where you quote and quote and quote and try to turn everyone's words around, get OT, and try to change everyone's mind.

I see you got annoyed because of everyone's comments, but did you notice that happens on alot of threads? They all end up this way? That your communication is misleading, and argumentative?

I see it this way, make your point and move on. Discuss if you must, but at some point, agree to disagree. That's the point of a discussion.

It makes me sad, likely this thread will be closed as have many, many others!

OK, normally I don't bite, but I just had to say my peace and get that off my chest. Everyone else does it, right? I want to be just like the crowd







Sorry, just a little humor thrown in at the end of a humorless post.


----------



## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamalisa*
My eyebrows are perfect naturally. Many times I've had people ask me where I get them done. Does this make my natural brows creepy and unnatural?

I need to post some pics, to this thread and see if ppl can even tell what's natural.
Cause my dh gets asked all the time about his and he's NEVER touched his with anything.

This topic is like the What is bf-ing worth topic, you have a few with their own ideology and loose fingers who just HAVE to push their views.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Quote:

My sister gets one int he exact same place. It's our freaky mark of sisterhood. Sometimes I will notice mine and send her an email reminding her to check. I like to objectify my sister as well as my self.
That is just cute. To call your sister with a hair report. My friend and I were on the same cycle for a while and I would call and tell her to get ready for aunt flo if I would start before her and vise versa. A true sign of love I tell you.


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

I should call a nail salon/hair removal place to see how many customers are 11 year olds. Although, I guess they could buy the kits at home.

Wouldn't it be easier to pluck the eyebrow since it's such a small area? I mean, if I waxed my eyebrow, I'd probably accidently rip the whole thing off.


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
Those that wouldn't allow their 11 y/o to wax, shave or pluck, is there any age between 11-18 that you would allow it?

Of course, I would allow (this thread seems to not be staying on the brow part - and I feel a little differently about legs vs. armpits vs. brows, not sure why) shaving their armpits as soon as hair grew there. I am just in that camp. Legs in 7th grade. My oldest dd is in 5th grade - not ready to let her yet (she hasn't asked). She is just too young IMO. There is time for that; it seems like a more mature thing than ten years old. Brows aren't all that big of a deal, and I would allow it if she had a unibrow and was teased/felt self concious. But just in general - no, not at 11! She isn't even allowed to wear makeup (ok, little bit of clear lip gloss is ok now and then); eyebrow waxing to me seems like part of a more adult routine.

I didn't start having my brows waxed til I was in my early 30s! Never even heard of it all through high school and college! I do LOVE having my brows cleaned up; it just makes me feel better. I keep mine very full and their natural shape, just cleaning up under and between a little. It is a subtle difference but I like it.

I think that 11 year olds getting eyebrows waxed and having pedicures and the like is just a little over the top. They are barely out of elementary school at that age. I also am not comfortable with my 11 year olds wearing high heels or owning cell phones. It just seems... too mature and honestly a bit too Paris Hilton-esque to me. What happened to 11 year olds riding their bikes to the park?

Some asked what we'd say to our kids when asked. I'd say what I say about everything that I am not against in general, just think they are too young for - not appropriate for kids your age. My dd1 is counting down the days til she is allowed to get her ears pierced - at 12. I think kids are growing up earlier and earlier these days. Eye brow waxing (just as a general practice - not for those who are teased) is one of the things that I think is reserved for teens at the very earliest, if not adults.

I'd be ok with the brow waxing if needed at age 15 or 16 I guess? But unless it was a teasable issue, I wouldn't pay for it. If they were old enough, and wanted to pay for it out of their allowance or babysitting money then that would be up to them (after the age of 15). Of course that age is just a guess as my oldest is ten...


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happymomwith5*
I should call a nail salon/hair removal place to see how many customers are 11 year olds. Although, I guess they could buy the kits at home.

I took Hannah (7) out for a "Princess Hannah" day for her birthday. She LOVES all things girlie and knew she would love to be pampered. I took her to get her hair cut. Usually I cut it at home. She LOVED it. Then we went and bought her a jewelry box and some special jewelry for it. Then off to IHOP for her favorite smilie pancake. Lastly I took her to a nail salon where she was able to pick out whatever color she wanted ... she chose blue







She got her nailed all buffed and all that jazz... got her toenails done even. She had THE time of her life.

GUess that was bad of me, ya know... cause I am prob telling her she should look like a Bratz doll because of it.


----------



## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

Awwww, what a special day!!!


----------



## kimnicole428 (Mar 2, 2006)

okay...i read everthing and stepped away for a moment to think if I really felt strongly enought to post again....(full disclosure: I plucked my eyebrows while thinking)







:

THe objectification argument is bothering me. NOONE had said they would allow their daughter to wax their eyebrows to look sexy (which to me = objectified)

MITB said - (paraphrase) no one is going to decide to be an 11 yo's friend based on eyebrows

I agree ....ALSO no one is going to look at an 11 year old with waxed eyebrows and

1. NOTICE...(i have waxed/plucked FOREVER always feel a huge difference which historically is not noticed by everyone else)








2. Think OMG look an objectified girl/woman HOW awful for her she is now a sex object/Bratz doll

I am irked with the thought that I cant be a stong Person (note I didnt say Woman) and not choose my own path...waxing, dying, plucking, makeup whatever.

I hope I will teach my children to be comfortable with who they are and how they choose to present themselves...unibrow, waxed brows, no brows..

I would rather be way low on the crunchometer and happy with myself than striving for crunchiness for the sake of status. (which is where i think this argument has gone) So yeah I am NOT NFL if that means sacrificing who I am and who I want my kids to be for status among the NFL elite...


----------



## faithhopelove (Feb 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimnicole428*
I would rather be way low on the crunchometer and happy with myself than striving for crunchiness for the sake of status. (which is where i think this argument has gone) So yeah I am NOT NFL if that means sacrificing who I am and who I want my kids to be for status among the NFL elite...

I was just talking about this with my husband actually. For all this talk about being non-conforming ... wouldn't I actually be conforming in the other direction just for the sake of being as crunchy as possible even if it isnt what I really want to do?

Ok that sounded like it made a lot more sense when dh and I were talking. NOt sure if I typed it out the right way though


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I am a big fan of Louise Hay http://www.louisehay.com. Basically, she's a new age leader for older women. One of the stories she tells in one of her books was about how, as a younger woman, she used to desperately try to pluck her eyebrows to look more attractive. It was a poignant story. Louise's point was that through self-love and positive affirmations, the dynamic of eyebrow plucking could change. Perhaps no more need to pluck eyebrows, perhaps not. I cannot remember if I heard this in a book, tape, video, or a workshop where the leader mentioned Louise. So the idea of creating a positive self image and self love is fine.

But I think the idea of telling the 11-year-old girl that she could *not* do something that she felt would make her more attractive would exacerbate the underlying problem and create a power struggle over a non-issue. I don't want to be that big of a control freak in my daughter's life. If she wants to do something that makes her look overtly sexual, then yes, of course, I'm going to object. But as many others have pointed out, just brushing her hair is "unnatural."

On the other hand, if my daughter wants to have one big unibrow that makes her look hideous, I would offer to help as kindly as possible but it would have to be her decision. I would not push it. She has her own relationship with her own eyebrow (s).


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2happymamas*
Here is the problem I see with that and please beleive that I do not mean ANY disrespect. With all of the no's, your child may (or may not) overcompensate for all the no's when he or she turns 18.

At age 18, "Mom never let me have fruit snacks. But man are they good." Child then proceeds to WAY overindulge in "forbidden" item. I really think that moderation is the key. With moderation, we are teaching our children how to indulge in healthy ways. Your child never had a twinkie? He or she may try one at some time and want to eat a whole box every 2 days b/c he or she likes them so much. If you let your child have a freaking twinkie every once in a while growing up, the allure and possibility of overindulging should be reduced (IMO).

Um, no, my children have never had a twinkie. They are very happy with their whole foods no processed sugars diets. My son just decided two weeks ago he wants to be a vegetarian. We are meat eaters. SO I think hes moving in the right direction, not the wrong...


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
see but you are agreeing with newmom who is saying that she would not allow it and would control her child's actions.

The thing is we never really know what our kids will do, the teen years they reject ALOT.


at 11 years old, yes, I have control over whether or not my daught (or son) waxes her/his eyebrows...they cannot drie themselves to a salon and I imagine any reputable salon would not do so to a minor without parental consent. REally any 11 yo of mine would not be asking for that.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
If you really read the post many women are saying, "yes, I wish that my daughter would not care about the pressures that society, media and peers put on her based solely on appearance. .


actually I'm reading a lot of women saying that they themselves wax their bodies, so I don't really see many of them saying oh, try not to let societal pressures get to you....


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I agree, but making fun of my parenting choices is an attack. All the wishing in the world ain't gonna change the world. It starts in the home with our own children.
When my dd was being teased at school, I didn't just deal with it at home. I brought the issue to the school and made a zero-tolerance policy for teasing/bullying students. I also helped them find grants to pay for educators to come in to the school and educate students why teasing is harmful and not acceptable.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I guess the feminist in me is disgusted that women are okay with objectifying little girls and themselves. Waxed/sculpted eyebrows look creepy and unnatural.

bottome line. What she said.


----------



## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

Part of letting a young women discover who she is and build self esteem is letting her explore her options. It has no bearing on being objectified. "I" didn't like the way "I" looked, so "I" did something that made "ME" feel better. It helped my self esteem. I felt better about myself because I discovered that I had the power to change me physically and emotionally.


----------



## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
at 11 years old, yes, I have control over whether or not my daught (or son) waxes her/his eyebrows...they cannot drie themselves to a salon and I imagine any reputable salon would not do so to a minor without parental consent. REally any 11 yo of mine would not be asking for that.
























If she goes to the mall with her friend and the friend's older sister, pays and gets her little sister's done and her friend says come on, she won't be asking you, it'll be some cool girlie thing.
And ahhh no most places as long as an ADULT is with them, any adult, it's done, you do think they are asking for id or a eye brow wax?


----------



## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

On topic...yes an 11 year old should be able to get anything on her face waxed that she wants...

Off topic: I find it hilarious that "objectification" is only viewed as happening when someone is waxed, non-crunchy, natural or whatever. Have any hairy, make-up free, deliberatly adornment free etc. women every been objectified? Um yes. Case in point the one man I dated during my VERY short non-shaving, wax-free, make-up-less, deoderant free, phase was the biggest perp of "objectification" of me out there partly because of my "natural beauty" Ugh. It was at that moment I realized that objectification is something OTHER people do and it was up to me to do to my body what I wanted to do. (technically I suppose I could objectify my own body) Turns out I like make-up as much as some ancient Egyptian man...maybe not as much as a woman in Victorian England...


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*






















If she goes to the mall with her friend and the friend's older sister, pays and gets her little sister's done and her friend says come on, she won't be asking you, it'll be some cool girlie thing.
And ahhh no most places as long as an ADULT is with them, any adult, it's done, you do think they are asking for id or a eye brow wax?









11 years old, not going to the mall alone with a friend. we are not mall (consumerist) folks though.


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggi315*
OK,
I'll bite and add my peace. Yes, MITB I do think you misread and I think you pick and pull apart people's words and misread on purpose. Then it seems to turn from being a discussion in which others are ALLOWED TO DISAGREE to a very annoying thread where you quote and quote and quote and try to turn everyone's words around, get OT, and try to change everyone's mind.

I see you got annoyed because of everyone's comments, but did you notice that happens on alot of threads? They all end up this way? That your communication is misleading, and argumentative?

I see it this way, make your point and move on. Discuss if you must, but at some point, agree to disagree. That's the point of a discussion.

It makes me sad, likely this thread will be closed as have many, many others!

OK, normally I don't bite, but I just had to say my peace and get that off my chest. Everyone else does it, right? I want to be just like the crowd







Sorry, just a little humor thrown in at the end of a humorless post.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimnicole428*
I would rather be way low on the crunchometer and happy with myself than striving for crunchiness for the sake of status. (which is where i think this argument has gone) So yeah I am NOT NFL if that means sacrificing who I am and who I want my kids to be for status among the NFL elite...

In today's world, there are a whole lot of people who really are not happy with themselves, mostly due to status expectations.







I agree with you completely, and hope that everyone will be able to be as cunchy or not crunchy as they feel they want to be.


----------



## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
11 years old, not going to the mall alone with a friend. we are not mall (consumerist) folks though.


Damn I'm glad you weren't my mother.
Seems your kids will never leave your eye sight.

and not everyone that goes to the mall is some happy spending main stream mom either, for many it's one of the better places to go in the middle of summer when it's hot as hell or in the winter when it's too cold to be strolling around.


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
11 years old, not going to the mall alone with a friend. we are not mall (consumerist) folks though.

no other adult takes your 11 year old anywhere???

I took my 11 year old niece to get hers done.technically i COULD be her mom if id had her at 16..but the lady who cut my hair did her eyebrows..she knew it was my niece..she did not ask if it was ok with her mom..it was.. BUT she didnt ask me anything except if we just wanted them cleaned up or styled

now..i would think it was very very wrong if someone took your daughter & got it done without your permission..but i also think its very weird that you have such a tight reign that this is entirely impossible

my 11 year old niece goes places (gasp..including malls!!







) with me, her other aunt,her grandma, her friends moms..


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Maybe if we promise to use only organic bees wax and certified free trade cotton muslin strips, we'll gain back some of our lost points on the Crunch-O-Metre.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki Christina*
no other adult takes your 11 year old anywhere???

I took my 11 year old niece to get hers done.technically i COULD be her mom if id had her at 16..but the lady who cut my hair did her eyebrows..she knew it was my niece..she did not ask if it was ok with her mom..it was.. BUT she didnt ask me anything except if we just wanted them cleaned up or styled

now..i would think it was very very wrong if someone took your daughter & got it done without your permission..but i also think its very weird that you have such a tight reign that this is entirely impossible

my 11 year old niece goes places (gasp..including malls!!







) with me, her other aunt,her grandma, her friends moms..

other people take my kids places all the time. just not to the mall or salon or any place where their bidy could be deliberately modified.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
Damn I'm glad you weren't my mother.
Seems your kids will never leave your eye sight.

and not everyone that goes to the mall is some happy spending main stream mom either, for many it's one of the better places to go in the middle of summer when it's hot as hell or in the winter when it's too cold to be strolling around.

when we need a break from the weather we head over to the library usually. i "hate" the mall, to be honest with you. I don't like all teh stores, noise, etc. Evem if you're just window shopping, its still sends a message. I think its sad that there are entire huge buildings devoted to just consuming.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think its sad that there are entire huge buildings devoted to just consuming.

Yeah, like Super Wal-Mart.







: No one building could be devoted to as much destruction as they are.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Yeah, like Super Wal-Mart.







: No one building could be devoted to as much destruction as they are.









I "hate" walmart as much as the next person - haven't set foot in one in years, target or kmart either for tha matter. but actually, I bet the malls are worse, when you consider where so many of the products that are sold there are made....disney store, limited, gap, etc....


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
Maybe if we promise to use only organic bees wax and certified free trade cotton muslin strips, we'll gain back some of our lost points on the Crunch-O-Metre.









MOOM Products







This should help.







They come with re-useable cloth strips as well.

Quote:

MOOM CONTAINS: Sugar, Chamomile, Lemon Juice, Tea Tree Oil, Water


----------



## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
other people take my kids places all the time. just not to the mall or salon or any place where their bidy could be deliberately modified.

so there is a loss of some control
lets say your 11 year old goes to lunch with a friend & her friends mom

they eat lunch & the mom decides to drop in & get a haircut
while there her daughter wants her eyebrows done
your daughter decides she wants her done too
the mom asks if you would be ok with it.your daughter says yes you would & the mom takes her word for it

its entirely possible..unless you screen & hand out guides to each & every person she leaves the house with


----------



## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

That's actually what I do.. It's sugar, honey, lemon juice and a cut up pillowcase.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki Christina*
so there is a loss of some control
lets say your 11 year old goes to lunch with a friend & her friends mom

they eat lunch & the mom decides to drop in & get a haircut
while there her daughter wants her eyebrows done
your daughter decides she wants her done too
the mom asks if you would be ok with it.your daughter says yes you would & the mom takes her word for it

its entirely possible..unless you screen & hand out guides to each & every person she leaves the house with

no not entirely possinle
my children do not go places with someone that wouldn't call me about something like that first
oufr friends - mine and my childrens - all have pretty much the same values and at least the same amount of respect for one another.


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I "hate" walmart as much as the next person - haven't set foot in one in years, target or kmart either for tha matter. but actually, I bet the malls are worse, when you consider where so many of the products that are sold there are made....disney store, limited, gap, etc....

Well, I don't know what makes you think that stores in a mall are somehow carrying these extra things that Wal-Mart, Target or K-Mart don't have. Before you totally rip on every single store that's in a mall, you may want to research what stores actually give a crap, besides just selling crap. It's pretty ridiculous to think that somehow being in a mall makes them worse, IMO. There's much more serious issues involved in consumer trade than whether or not they are in a mall.


----------



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
If she goes to the mall with her friend and the friend's older sister, pays and gets her little sister's done and her friend says come on, she won't be asking you, it'll be some cool girlie thing.
And ahhh no most places as long as an ADULT is with them, any adult, it's done, you do think they are asking for id or a eye brow wax?

Great point. Not to mention--many 11year olds look a little older (if not much older), and at least around here, they'll wax the early teens with no one around (I know my sister's been getting hers done since she was 15ish? They don't ask/care how old you are.

As far as waxed brows looking creepy-ew to you. I usually pluck, and when I do, I take max 15 hairs off each brow (usually about 5 from the arch, and maybe 10 of the little guys on the ends near my nose). There's no outwardly obvious difference, they just look a bit neater. When i do wax, it's mostly for the peachfuzz between them. They most certainly do NOT look creepy.







:

ETA: As far as feminism goes, I too am a feminist (sometimes a very rabid, very angry one--always very vocal) and I have the sense to know that women should _choose_ what they like best. Saying it goes against feminism is like saying that SAHMing is going against feminism because women don't have to do that anymore, we've evolved and pushed to avoid that, it takes women 10 steps back







. No one is saying we should push or even encourage our daughters (or sons) regarding body modification of any type. But I believe it should be their choice.


----------



## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
As far as waxed brows looking creepy-ew to you. I usually pluck, and when I do, I take max 15 hairs off each brow (usually about 5 from the arch, and maybe 10 of the little guys on the ends near my nose). There's no outwardly obvious difference, they just look a bit neater. When i do wax, it's mostly for the peachfuzz between them. The most certainly do NOT look creepy.







:

I dunno CMM, sounds creepy to me.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

I think people got this image of 1950's waxed brows where they took off the whole thing and drew them on with a pencil. Those were creepy-ew.
Eye brows are "in" and most aesthiticans do a nice job of shaping them and making them neat without de-foresting the whole eyebrow.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Well, I don't know what makes you think that stores in a mall are somehow carrying these extra things that Wal-Mart, Target or K-Mart don't have. Before you totally rip on every single store that's in a mall, you may want to research what stores actually give a crap, besides just selling crap. It's pretty ridiculous to think that somehow being in a mall makes them worse, IMO. There's much more serious issues involved in consumer trade than whether or not they are in a mall.


i dont think the individual stores themselve are worse thatn walmart just that "together" they do more damage than walmart alone

and ftr, i have researched what stores actually give a crap - and most of the mall chains do NOT.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.

Question for the mamas who think its okay...do you yoruself modify your eyebrows, or wax/shave other parts of your bodies?

I can understand a girl wanting to wax if she is particularly hairy, it just mostly makes me sad that we live in a society that makes someone feel like they need to wax at all, especially a child.

Whether I permit my child to shave or wax is not going to alter her mind and feelings about her body being "okay"--she already has her perspective on that. I can share mine and give her the right to choose--she is more likely to listen then anyway. And she is honestly m ore likely to get bored with shaving and get over it. Most adults have tried it even if they stopped, and I doubt many have wished their parents had forbidden them trying it out. By that time kids have a mind of their own and should use it in practice. Trial and error it is--that IS Life.

When my 11yo asked to shave (actually she really wanted a chemical depilatory she saw in a magazine), at first I was very against it. At first I told her no, one of the reasons being that I don't trust the chemicals/that I thought she would leave sharp razors where a very young sibling might play with them, and that I am basically against the idea of hair as unattractive and needing to change our bodies to feel we are beautiful etc. She completely disagreed about my views and wanted to shave anyway and felt pretty upset that I would tell her no.

She didn't feel I understood what it is like to be wanting to "fit in", then I told her all about how I felt at that age which was PLENTY to convince her I did understand and I told her about stubble and the general inconvenience of bothering with it. She seemed to understand my points very well.

But then after I thought about it I changed my mind. I realized she had the right to try this and to make this choice. I would let her shave or try wax, I would also let her wax her "bikini area" even-- if she had a bush enough to bother. I would accept eyebrow-waxing. Though I personally don't get the point of all this stuff.

I don't shave or wax at all. I have not shaved for years, nor do I even wear makeup except for on an occasional eye-glitter kind of day. Be glad when I bathe! I am!


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
i dont think the individual stores themselve are worse thatn walmart just that "together" they do more damage than walmart alone

and ftr, i have researched what stores actually give a crap - and most of the mall chains do NOT.

Good for you then. BTW, you never specified "chain" stores before.


----------



## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
no not entirely possinle
my children do not go places with someone that wouldn't call me about something like that first
oufr friends - mine and my childrens - all have pretty much the same values and at least the same amount of respect for one another.

well..okie dokie then

we dont eat pork in our house & everyone who knows us knows this
but..i cannot & will not control my child to the extint that when she is older I think its entirely impossible that if she decided she wanted a hotdog shes not gonna be able to get it

if its something she decides she wants..i have to learn to except it, within reason


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Lord don't take this off on another tanget on if malls or good or bad, cause a mom and pop salon will kill a unibrow and good as any salon in a mall.

we as parents SWEAR we know our kids sooooo well, we don't, unless you are with your child 24 hours a day, IN THEIR MINDS, you can't be sure what they will or won't do.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Good for you then. BTW, you never specified "chain" stores before.









my examples were disney store , gap, limited. I wouldn't know anout any independents at this point because they don't seem to last as long. and i haven;t been to a mall in a long while, so i don't know about the newer stores. I hear about the disney store (or overhear actually







whenever I'm at the park. Blech.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
Lord don't take this off on another tanget on if malls or good or bad, cause a mom and pop salon will kill a unibrow and good as any salon in a mall.

we as parents SWEAR we know our kids sooooo well, we don't, unless you are with your child 24 hours a day, IN THEIR MINDS, you can't be sure what they will or won't do.

I'm "reasonably" sure. Okay?


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

No, too young. (of course 11 now is a lot older than 11 back when I was that age).

I think I was about 13 when I started getting my eyebrows waxed, my friend's older sister had it done and we wanted to be like her!


----------



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I'm "reasonably" sure. Okay?











My mother was reasonably sure what I did too.









I did all types of things she had no idea about (experimenting lightly with alcohol, MJ, and heavily with sex and bulimia-though not at the exact same time







) and the icing on the cake? I got pregnant at 15.







:

Oh yeah, she knew what I was doing....and I based my actions on what she did and did not approve of


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I'm "reasonably" sure. Okay?

Well, my 11yo just looked up a specific porn site on the recommendation of a 9yo boy whose family are members of a Quaker meeting that we attend. You never know. I'm mainly relieved that she managed to tell me about it (unfortunately only because she thought she had messed up a computer) and that I handled it well.


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## jennnk (Feb 6, 2005)

As a fairly confident nearly 24-year-old woman and mother, I embrace my hairy legs because [a]I'm lazy and *who cares? But at 11 I BEGGED my mother to let me shave. Why? Because 11-year-old girls are CRUEL. Should we live in a society where we're all accepted for who and what and how we are? Yes. Do we? NO. And to this day, if someone mentions my hairy legs, my inner sixth grader comes floating to the surface and I have to resist the urge to cry. I work at a daycamp and when we went to the pool not one not two but THREE 11-year-old girls noticed my belly (stretch marks & sagging skin, thanks Boogermonkey) and despite my best efforts I was nauseated and sad and just irked all day because how DARE they. But that's how they are. And if my (theoretical future) daughter wanted to spare herself that humiliation and pain, I would certainly let her.*


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## Overproducktion (Aug 31, 2003)

For those mamas who would not allow it, I'm totally okay with that. But when I posted that I would allow my daughter to do it, I was told I would need to figure out what made her self esteem so low to want to do it in the first place. There could possibly be so many issues at that age, the waxing would not be a battle I would choose to argue over with my dd.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Just curious.....

At what age do the mamas who disapprove plan on giving their daughters the opportunity to make their own decisions about altering their appearances?


----------



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
At what age do the mamas who disapprove plan on giving their daughters the opportunity to make their own decisions about altering their appearances?


----------



## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

numom499 said:


> I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
I think people got this image of 1950's waxed brows where they took off the whole thing and drew them on with a pencil. Those were creepy-ew.
Eye brows are "in" and most aesthiticans do a nice job of shaping them and making them neat without de-foresting the whole eyebrow.

I know. It's not like you can see me walking down the street and go "OMGZ she looks like a HARLOT."







In fact, I bet most of the moms opposing it could talk to me for half an hour without ever noticing. It's almost always done in a very subtle way.

So I don't really get the Bratz doll thing. Almost every woman in the public eye does eyebrow waxing... Oprah, Hillary Clinton, my state's Senator, every actress you can think of, Laura Bush, those crazy chicks from Saturday Night Live, my local news anchor...

I always wonder whether men are "objectified" when they cut their hair short and shave their faces starting from an early age... does that lead down the slippery slope to rhinoplasty and Prince Albert rings and general moral depravity?


----------



## mamamillet (May 21, 2004)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini
At what age do the mamas who disapprove plan on giving their daughters the opportunity to make their own decisions about altering their appearances?

__________________________
??


----------



## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
Just curious.....

At what age do the mamas who disapprove plan on giving their daughters the opportunity to make their own decisions about altering their appearances?

when they leave their homes to go to the house of their husband, what did you think







:


----------



## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*









My mother was reasonably sure what I did too.









I did all types of things she had no idea about (experimenting lightly with alcohol, MJ, and heavily with sex and bulimia-though not at the exact same time







) and the icing on the cake? I got pregnant at 15.







:

Oh yeah, she knew what I was doing....and I based my actions on what she did and did not approve of










ohhh you are a white version of me







: minus the bulimia









My mom up to this day does NOT know that I left the country on a weekend sleep over, my friend's mom talked a very strict talk, but her actions were very permisive, and my mom had no idea that she let us get on a private plane and go party in another country, heck she didn't know she let us party in the country we lived in.
And we never talked


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.

I disagree with this statement.

What exactly are you concerned about happening? Do you think your daughter will eventually end up wanting plastic surgery to alter her appearance? Not being snarky, honestly just curious.

We already alter our appearance every day. We wash our hair, cut our hair (some of us), we style our hair (put it up in ponytail, curl it, straighten it, brush it, etc...), some of us wear makeup, we eat healthy and exercise so our bodies will be healthy and in shape. The list could probably go on for many more alterations we make to ourselves.

I am not sure I understand why some alterations are fine, but others are not.

It seems to me, and it may just be me the problem with this alteration (waxing eyebrows) is it seems too adult for our children. I really don't think it has much to do with not wanting them to alter their appearance b/c they should be happy with who they are and how they look.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*

I always wonder whether men are "objectified" when they cut their hair short and shave their faces starting from an early age... does that lead down the slippery slope to rhinoplasty and Prince Albert rings and general moral depravity?

Good point. Shaving is _supposed_ to make men sexier and smoother and more attractive to women. So if a man shaves is he now an object? A hairless plaything designed to stoke women's fantasy fires? Does it make him a _man-slut_?







: (Personally, I like bearded, moustached men, but I like a neatly trimmed beard and moustache)

I had hoped that we could have moved on past this idea that WOMAN is defined by what she wears or what she looks like. Is the woman in a mini skirt and halter top a slut begging to be raped? Are fat women all lazy and unhealthy? Do all slim women have an eating disorder? Are women who wear a power suit to work all bitches? Are women only supposed to look a certain way to be accepted and acceptable?

I think all my sisters are beautiful, whether or not they fit into my ideal of how I feel comfortable with myself. And I'm SOOOO comfortable with my fat, hairy self that I can see and accept and embrace the beauty in every woman. I don't feel the need to condemn or judge or make assumptions about her self-esteem because she waxes or dyes or gets lipo or a boob job or wears a mini-skirt.

It won't be until we WOMEN learn to accept, respect, and love our sisters without judgement that our sons will grow up with the same love, respect, and acceptance. If we say to our kids "You may not wax your eyebrows. Waxing makes a girl look like a hootchie." or "You may not wear a mini. Mini-skirts make a girl look like a slut" what is that saying to our boys? That all girls who wax are hootchie mamas? That all girls in mini's are sluts? How is he going to feel about the next girl in a mini skirt he sees? Is it really any different from some one saying "Girls who don't shave look dirty and smoke marijuana"?

Let's be really careful, when passing on our ideals, that we don't pass on our _judgements_ as well.


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
It won't be until we WOMEN learn to accept, respect, and love our sisters without judgement that our sons will grow up with the same love, respect, and acceptance. If we say to our kids "You may not wax your eyebrows. Waxing makes a girl look like a hootchie." or "You may not wear a mini. Mini-skirts make a girl look like a slut" what is that saying to our boys? That all girls who wax are hootchie mamas? That all girls in mini's are sluts? How is he going to feel about the next girl in a mini skirt he sees? Is it really any different from some one saying "Girls who don't shave look dirty and smoke marijuana"?

Let's be really careful, when passing on our ideals, that we don't pass on our _judgements_ as well.


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## ChrisCountryGirl (Dec 8, 2004)

I voted no.


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## LoriG (Feb 27, 2003)

Wow, I don't have time at the moment to read all the pages of replies







but I did want to give my opinion!
I was raised in a strict home, and I wasn't allowed to shave my legs till after I got my period at 13, nor wear anything but mascara till I was 16, etc. The external rules didn't change how I felt on the inside, just made me feel rebellious, really.
I also don't think the issue is with "self esteem" .. it has to do mostly with our culture and the norms of the society we live in, and fitting in.
Do we consider cutting our hair, dyeing it, earrings, nailpolish, ETC ETC ETC .. a product of low self esteem? Nope. But if you just face it .. in our society it's the norm to have shaved legs. Not everyone complies, but there are conformists and non conformists in every walk of life. I don't think it's right or wrong, but we as humans tend to do things the way they've always been done. Some people use only chopsticks, some only forks, some sit on the floor, some sit in chairs, some squat over toilet holes in the ground, some use toilets.
It's also the difference between somewhere, a woman would be naked without a head covering, but in our society the girls wear short shorts and that's the norm.
It is all a product of our society, and our need to fit in to an extent, not self esteem. IMO, of course.
I have a 10.5 yr old daughter and she asked me a few months ago if I could wax her legs. She saw me doing it and said hers looked too hairy.
I did it for her, and she never asked again, saying it hurt and she didn't mind the hair so much.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

: Only here on MDC can a question about removing body hair erupt into a 25 page long debate.







: I love this place.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrazyRED*







: Only here on MDC can a question about removing body hair erupt into a 25 page long debate.







: I love this place.

laughup

Wow that smilie is creepy, but I always wanted to use it!


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
It seems to me, and it may just be me the problem with this alteration (waxing eyebrows) is it seems too adult for our children. I really don't think it has much to do with not wanting them to alter their appearance b/c they should be happy with who they are and how they look.

This is what it comes down to for me - exactly. It seems too adult for an 11 year old. I think many of us who are saying no might vote differently if we were talking about a 17 year old.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
Good point. Shaving is _supposed_ to make men sexier and smoother and more attractive to women. So if a man shaves is he now an object? A hairless plaything designed to stoke women's fantasy fires? Does it make him a _man-slut_?







:

w00t! My DH is a Manslut? Woah I gotta wake him up and tell him this!

BWAHAHAHA

*sevenkids, I know you were joking but man that's funny, I needed that laugh after the crap thrown at me today...and the day hasn't even started yet....*


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## kathirynne (Dec 29, 2004)

I've been waxing my 12-year-old son's eyebrow area since he was about 9. (I use a Sally Hansen home kit...it's easy.)

When my wasband asked why I was doing it, I told him, "Because Spencer prefers to have *two* eyebrows, not one unibrow."

If I can help my children feel good about themselves, I will.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Her body, her choice.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
Her body, her choice.

is that true for any age, or only 11 and older?


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## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

I voted yes. I have my eyebrows waxed every month. It's not a self esteem issue, I just like the way I look with them waxed better than without. I also choose to wear clothes that look nice on me vs. clothes that don't and cut my hair in a style that flatters my face.

If my dd (who looks like she's gotten my brows) wants to go with me for waxing when she's old enough that's fine. I'm not sure what "old enough" is since she's only 5 but 11 is middle school age and that seems old enough for something temporary like waxing. If she later decides that she likes her eyebrows (or whatever) better in the "natural" state the hair will grow back.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I of course did not read all the replies (25 pages or so), just wanted to say that hair shaving/waxing is no more of a "body alteration" to me than a haircut









Personal preference. Though my Grandma was very diappointed when my Mom cut her hair short. She was told that only "women of questionable behaviour" do that


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Personal preference. Though my Grandma was very diappointed when my Mom cut her hair short. She was told that only "women of questionable behaviour" do that

















She'd be shocked if she saw my brother's gf then. Her hair isn't much longer then about three inches.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I've told my daughter (who is twelve) that if she wants to remove body hair, please to tell me first so I can show her how to do it properly. My mother had some absurd overreaction to me shaving my legs at 8 or 9 in secret and I was terribly self-conscious for a long time. Eventually she either didn't care or realized she couldn't stop me.

I've also told my daughter that if she wants her eyebrows neatened up (they are just about perfect, she's one of the lucky ones to have narrow, well-defined, thick eyebrows) where they're filling in in the middle, please not to shave them (with a borrowed razor, eucgh), but to tell me to make an appointment with my hairdresser who takes care of my pathetic brows. She filed that away until she was ready and asked a few weeks ago how much it hurts.









Eyebrows are something that just should be waxed, IMO. Much better for someone who can see what they're doing to take care of it, 1-2-3 done.

FWIW I shave my legs, underarms, bikini area and my daughter so far has no desire to do any of that, unlike me at that age. So once pre-puberty has started, and a gal is interested in that kind of thing, I say don't make them wait too long. Certainly not if your daughter is embarrassed about her moustache or unibrow or "gorilla legs," as my friend was called in school.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Why does wanting to make oneself look in a particular way a "self esteem issue"? I have gray hair. I don't like the way it looks. I dye it. I think that I'm a pretty cute woman even though I don't wear makeup or have any kind of plans for plastic surgery.

I also wax my eyebrows. I don't like the way they look when they are too hairy.

Why are these things self esteem issues? Why aren't they simply vanity issues and why is that a bad thing?

And why the hell am I asking so many questions?


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
is that true for any age, or only 11 and older?

I'd say that's true for just about any age.

I'd balk at permanent cosmetic surgical procedures, knowing that kids change their minds often and aren't always ready to comprehend the PERMANENCE of body modification (plus, gosh, I can think of a million better things to do with several hundred dollars than pay for DS's first tattoo)

But like someone else pointed out, waxing is no more permanent than a freakin haircut. I wouldn't forbid an 11-year-old from cutting his hair, YK?

And, gracious, I remember kids dying their hair with boiled Kool-Aid around that age when I was a kid. My mom always said, "if you reeeeeeaally want blue hair, go for it."


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
Why does wanting to make oneself look in a particular way a "self esteem issue"?
.....
Why are these things self esteem issues? Why aren't they simply vanity issues and why is that a bad thing?


I mean, really. I do all the cosmetic things because I want to and I like doing them. Plenty of people would turn the self-esteem issue around and say that people who *don't* care about their personal appearance and grooming might have low self-esteem.

As far as it being too "adult," the act of removing body hair is not itself too adult; one has to look at the whole thing. I know 9-year-olds who are way more "adult" than my 12 year old in what I think is an inappropriate way. My daughter isn't into that whole teenage vibe at all, so I would have no problem at all with most piercings she might ask for (she doesn't want any), removing body hair, etc. She wears contact lenses. I keep putting her off about getting highlights in her hair. That seems something that should wait a year or two. But I know people who think ear piercing is too sexual for young children and would ban their kids from getting their ears pierced until at least 16.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*
ohhh you are a white version of me







: minus the bulimia

I resent that Kajira! I am not white.







: I just came back from vacation in Virginia where it was in the 80s and 90s with nary a cloud in the sky. I am a lovely, glistening lobster red, thankyouverymuch.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

To the mamas who disagree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
*What exactly are you concerned about happening? Do you think your daughter will eventually end up wanting plastic surgery to alter her appearance? Not being snarky, honestly just curious.*

We already alter our appearance every day. We wash our hair, cut our hair (some of us), we style our hair (put it up in ponytail, curl it, straighten it, brush it, etc...), some of us wear makeup, we eat healthy and exercise so our bodies will be healthy and in shape. The list could probably go on for many more alterations we make to ourselves.

I am not sure I understand why some alterations are fine, but others are not.

It seems to me, and it may just be me the problem with this alteration (waxing eyebrows) is it seems too adult for our children. I really don't think it has much to do with not wanting them to alter their appearance b/c they should be happy with who they are and how they look.

I am really interested in the answer to this question, especially from numom499 and MamaInTheBoonies.

I am honestly trying to see what the concern is as to what may happen if your child starts altering their appearance at a young age.

I also am wondering why is fine for some alterations and not others.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

I voted "yes"...

If my DD came to me (at any age) and said she wanted to shave/wax her body hair or dye/perm/otherwise style her hair or wear make-up, or whatever "cosmetic" thing she wants to do, I would talk to her about why she wants to do it.

If the answer were something like "Everyone is doing it" then my answer would most likely be "Not everyone's doing it, because you're not, and you're someone."

If she responded with "Random-friend did it, and I like the way it looks" I would probably consent to something temporary, because she might not like the way it looks on her, but she does deserve the right to mold her appearance in such a way that she feels good about the way she looks.

If she responded with "Kids are making fun of me", I don't know how I would respond, because the reality is, if they're not making fun of her for body hair, etc., they'll be making fun of her for something else, and that's an entirely different issue that cosmetics won't change. (I speak from personal experience...I never did manage to wear the right shoes or jeans or shirt or hairstyle. There was always something that wasn't "cool" about me.)


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## Lizzo (Jul 26, 2005)

If my DD or DS would want to shave thier body or wax or pluck...that's fine with me. It is their body. Of course...they are growing up in a hairy household (I don't shave anything, nor does DP)...but we have the choice to not shave, the can make the choice to shave or wax or pluck or whatever.
Maybe we'd talk a bit about why...if people are hurting them or they just feel ready, but I wouldn't make it a huge ordeal.
I think it is respecting who they are as an individual, that they make choices for themselves and I need to respect those choices.


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## Momof3inMI (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't see what the big deal is on this one. It's not permanent, will not leave a scar, and only hurts for a moment. You need to let your children find themselves. If this is one of the ways, when noone can get hurt, let them. For the most part, once they see it hurts they might change their minds and not do it again. Its only hair.
Bet you can't guess which way I voted.


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
is that true for any age, or only 11 and older?

Always. In our house, there will be a lot of discussions if a child of mine wants a permanent alteration or something else that affects their bodily integrity, but I think that the only way to allow people control over their own bodies is by being radical in it. Even if it´s hard, and every radical stance often is.

Whether I agree or not with my children´s decisions is not an issue. If they reject my arguments with a good reason (and `it´s my body, not yours´ is a good reason for me), all power to them! My role as a parent is to keep them safe, and whether an 11 year old waxes their eyebrows has nothing to do with safety.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momof3inMI*
For the most part, once they see it hurts they might change their minds and not do it again.

FTR--I got mine waxed for the 1st time when I was 23 (lol). Before I got it done, I was like "Okay, cool....6 bucks...I can do this every 2 weeks or so" Afterwards, I was like "Eh...notsomuch" The pain wasn't too intense, it just wasn't worth what I could have plucked in 5 minutes. I've gotten it done maybe 5 times total, and I have them leave my archs alone-I just get the fuzz in between done and they charge $3. Score!

Plus I'm usually VERY white (







kajira ), so to walk around with bringht red patched above and between the eyes for the rest of the day? Not so glamorous.

Just a warning--please feel the wax first (or ask your daughters to!) because I've seen a very bad outcome once--severe burning of the skin, to the point where the young woman had to consult with dermatology and plastic surgery (and a lawyer) because the wax was waaay too hot.

Kelly


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

I'm remembering that I had lots of long hair on my arms and legs when I was a kid because I was skinny (there's a name for that condition; the long hair keeps your body warmer).

I hated it and so wore a knit poncho and knee-high boots EVERY DAY, ALL DAY, even in the scorching heat of the AZ summers.

Funny, I didn't know I could get rid of the hair...


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## Momof3inMI (Feb 28, 2006)

If you are going to get waxed... ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS have them check the wax in front of you on their own arm. A wax pot should never be set above 3 1/2 ~ 4 setting. If the pot is low on wax the setting should be even lower! Just make sure yoy see them check it, and if you don't see them do it, ask then to do it again.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora*
So, essentially, you'd tell her to suck it up and _force_ herself to _feel_ love for her stray brow hairs? Because only she can control how she conforms to your expectations of self-love?


even if that were really the case, is it any better or worse than teaching then "yes, honey, cause you are just not good enough how you are right now"?


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

I am not seeing the big deal here with the eyebrow thing. If she feels her brow is too bushy then go for it.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

I havent read the whole thread ( cause its 26 pages) but we ROUTINELY wax my 14 yr old SON's eyebrows. He is a hairy kid w/ a major uni-brow coming ( thanks to grandfather Homer). He laughs he has more hair between his eyes than on his chin yet.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
even if that were really the case, is it any better or worse than teaching then "yes, honey, cause you are just not good enough how you are right now"?

She already feels that way if she is asking to change her appearance.

I will restate a question that noone has answered as of yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
What exactly are you concerned about happening? Do you think your daughter will eventually end up wanting plastic surgery to alter her appearance? Not being snarky, honestly just curious.

We already alter our appearance every day. We wash our hair, cut our hair (some of us), we style our hair (put it up in ponytail, curl it, straighten it, brush it, etc...), some of us wear makeup, we eat healthy and exercise so our bodies will be healthy and in shape. The list could probably go on for many more alterations we make to ourselves.

I am not sure I understand why some alterations are fine, but others are not.

It seems to me, and it may just be me the problem with this alteration (waxing eyebrows) is it seems too adult for our children. I really don't think it has much to do with not wanting them to alter their appearance b/c they should be happy with who they are and how they look.

Why is it fine for your child to alter her appearance in other ways, but not this one? If this alteration is going to mean you are confirming "yes, honey, cause you are just not good enough how you are right now," how are none of the other alterations saying the same exact thing?

I really am curious to hear the answer to this.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
even if that were really the case, is it any better or worse than teaching then "yes, honey, cause you are just not good enough how you are right now"?

The fact that a child of mine is experiencing insecurity or a lack of confidence doesn't change that they're still just as "good" as they were before. A feeling of insecurity could never lessen my opinion of my child, and it could never lessen the reality of how awesome s/he actually is. So where does this "yes, honey, cause you are just not good enough how you are right now" come into play?

If my kid is feeling like they could be somehow better by looking different, I will share my perspective on that. I will remind them of how wonderful they are, as they are and that looking a certain way has nothing to do with who a person is. However, I'm not willing to get into forbidding what they do with their body, thinking it will somehow prove to them that what I say is true, dammit!

I wish someone could explain to me their understanding of how limiting this kind of freedom is somehow more empowering than sharing your wisdom and ultimately letting the kiddo in question figure out what's right for them at that time. It won't necessarily be a life sentence of waxing, bleaching or manicuring, you know?

I'm glad I had the freedom to explore my appearance, because I've made it to a really great place for me regarding it. I don't want to take that opportunity from my child/teenager/adult offspring in order to get him/her in line with what I've only accomplished at 23. We all have to make our own way, and I bet it's infinitely easier with parental support than without.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

I am afraid that to be honest, I cant actually answer the questions of the two posters above me at this time. I dont have a daughter. I have a son with a blonde unibrow who finds it amusing.

I do feel that it's a sad situation when an 11 year old girl already has these issues. I did not, and as I do not have a daughter (yet, prego atm so possibly in 11 years I can answer more honestly)

I can get into my whole rant (upon request) about the american media, advertising, etc that I believe leads to these problems but I am freely admitting that I can only use my own POV and as I dont have a daughter, it may not reflect how I might feel if I did have one.


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
I do feel that it's a sad situation when an 11 year old girl already has these issues.

Me too, truly.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
I can get into my whole rant (upon request) about the american media, advertising, etc that I believe leads to these problems but I am freely admitting that I can only use my own POV and as I dont have a daughter, it may not reflect how I might feel if I did have one.

I'm simply philosophizing as well, my kiddo isn't quite hatched yet! I would love to read what you have to say on the topic. I would bet that we have very similar opinions.


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
I resent that Kajira! I am not white.







: I just came back from vacation in Virginia where it was in the 80s and 90s with nary a cloud in the sky. I am a lovely, glistening lobster red, thankyouverymuch.


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## muckemom (Jun 26, 2006)

Quite honestly, I didn't vote, because there was no "depends" !!!! I am very very very Italian and have extrememly bushy eyebrows, my parents wouldn't let me wax them until I was 14... and it was humiliating... sorry to add a tinge of vanity but come on!

whats the harm in allowing an 11 year old to do that? Its much safer than having her tweeze them, and if it would help her feel better about herself, its not like its a permanent thing... that would certainly be one of the battles I would let go.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kajira*























I'm glad you find it funny. Wanna come help me peel the tan off now?


----------



## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
Why does wanting to make oneself look in a particular way a "self esteem issue"? I have gray hair. I don't like the way it looks. I dye it. I think that I'm a pretty cute woman even though I don't wear makeup or have any kind of plans for plastic surgery.

I also wax my eyebrows. I don't like the way they look when they are too hairy.

Why are these things self esteem issues? Why aren't they simply vanity issues and why is that a bad thing?

I agree







The idea that anyone who wants to alter their body is suffering from low self-esteem or the pressure of western culture is a little far-fetched to me. Is there an incredible amount of pressure on women to "look a certain way" ? YES, definitely.
That doesn't mean you can paint everyone with the same brush, though. Some people just like playing around with their appearance & it has nothing to do with low self-esteem.

Personally, I'm rather hairy and I like the way my body FEELS without hair - arms, legs, um... "naughty bits" - I like the way they feel after being waxed. And, yes, I've been known to get a brazilian when I was single and not seeing anyone







:
Not all "self-improvement" is bad and it's not all for the benefit of others. If my kiddo wants to do something to his (or her, if I had a dd) body because it would help them feel better in some way, then I would totally support that.


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## Kajira (May 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
I'm glad you find it funny. Wanna come help me peel the tan off now?

come on feel for me, I'm pregnant








I'd give you some aloe gel tho


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I voted no. This will only lead to bigger things and IMO that's a very young age to be worried about vanity. I'd teach my child to love herself the way she is if it were me.


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## Jaydens_mom (Aug 12, 2006)

Simple things that enhance ones natural beauty like subtle highlights to the hair, or waxing the eyebrows to a beautiful arch are things that i agree with allowing preteen girls to experience. However once they start asking to dye thier hair funky colors, get an eyebrow piercing, or wear excessive makeup that is where i draw the line.
Sure eventually they are going to see magazines that promote a certian image of what is "beautiful" in the eyes of society.. and want to look JUST LIKE THAT to impress the other kids at school, but at 11 years old they are still a child, and the only people they should be wanting to impress are themselves and you *the parent*.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think that the modification of one part of the body leads them to modify other parts of the body, or think that other parts of the body are not okay.

Why? Is waxing some sort of slipperly slope where people who wax their eyebrows are more likely to get breast implants and a nose job?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
Question for the mamas who think its okay...do you yoruself modify your eyebrows, or wax/shave other parts of your bodies?

I shave my pits every time I shower, my legs less often, and (when I can reach it) I keep my pubic hair trimmed so that it resembles a well-manicured lawn instead of the classic "bush"









~Nay


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin*
Why? Is waxing some sort of slipperly slope where people who wax their eyebrows are more likely to get breast implants and a nose job?
~Nay

It's a gateway drug. Like marijuana.

Baaaadddd stuff, waxing and weed.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
It's a gateway drug. Like marijuana.

Baaaadddd stuff, waxing and weed.

















:







:


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
She already feels that way if she is asking to change her appearance.

I will restate a question that noone has answered as of yet.

Why is it fine for your child to alter her appearance in other ways, but not this one? If this alteration is going to mean you are confirming "yes, honey, cause you are just not good enough how you are right now," how are none of the other alterations saying the same exact thing?

I really am curious to hear the answer to this.


Houdidni,,,I have answered this question several times. It is NOT okay for my child to alter their appearance in any way. I do not believe in ear piercing, highlights, manicures, etc for little girls or boys. I do allow them to cut their hair but really only to keep it out of their eyes...


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## Momof3inMI (Feb 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
It's a gateway drug. Like marijuana.

Baaaadddd stuff, waxing and weed.

















:







:

Gateway drug, yeah that's it.














:

Well, if you smoke the weed first it might lessen the pain from the waxing.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jaydens_mom*
Simple things that enhance ones natural beauty like subtle highlights to the hair, or waxing the eyebrows to a beautiful arch are things that i agree with allowing preteen girls to experience. However once they start asking to dye thier hair funky colors, get an eyebrow piercing, or wear excessive makeup that is where i draw the line.

Oh, dear. Rain had blue, green, and pink hair well before she started waxing or plucking her eyebrows... we were dyeing by 6 or 7, I think.

FWIW, we use the Sally Hansen home waxing kit, and always have. You just microwave the little jar for 30 seconds or so, stir it up so it's uniformly melted and gloppy but not runny (test first) and smear it on. We use a small butter knife, because the little stick they give you is too flimsy. Pull against the growth, and don't leave it on until it gets really hard - pull it off when it's still somewhat pliable. We also reuse the wax quite a few times... I've been doing it this way since I was 11 or so, FWIW, and I've never had plastic surgery or even a professional manicure... just neater eyebows. I now do my upper lip and chin, too, so I guess I've progressed somewhat... Rain may do her upper lip, too, now that I think of it.

dar


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## Momof3inMI (Feb 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Pull against the growth, and don't leave it on until it gets really hard - pull it off when it's still somewhat pliable.

You really shoud be putting the wax on with the hair growth and pulling against it. If you want to use something other than a butter knife get some wooden coffee stirsticks and tounge depressors. The stirsticks are for face and small spots the tounge depressors are for legs, underarms, & bikini area.
Have fun.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wende*
MITB, why in the world do you keep insisting that girls who want to wax their eyebrows want to do it so that they can look like Barbie or Bratz Dolls??? I'm quite certain we've been back and forth about this. My kids don't like barbies or bratz so I'm quite certain that if they asked to be waxed it would be because it was something that _they_ wanted to do for themselves. NOT because they wanted to look like some silly doll. I think it's sad that you insist on pushing your issues onto your children.









:


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
Houdidni,,,I have answered this question several times. It is NOT okay for my child to alter their appearance in any way. I do not believe in ear piercing, highlights, manicures, etc for little girls or boys. I do allow them to cut their hair but really only to keep it out of their eyes...


So why is it alright to cut their hair if you don't want them to alter their appearance. I am not sure I really see the difference. You are allowing them to alter their appearance already, but are just choosing what you feel is age appropriate???

As far as keeping their hair out their eyes.....why not use hair ties? This way they are not altering their appearance in any way.


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## emdeecee_sierra (Oct 16, 2005)

I voted no only because I think 11 is a bit young to, certainly, be on the 'alter myself, high fashion' kick already, and even too young to be concerned with looks otherwise. Maybe I'm just not in touch with how worldly children are nowadays at younger and younger ages, but I cannot remember being concerned with that stuff at 11 for gosh sakes.

If the child is experiencing teasing at school, just makes me all the happier we are homeschooling







.

When I was young, my mother wouldn't allow me to shave my legs nor would she buy me a 'training bra'. I presented the requests at an appropriate age (not 11) but was denied the shaving until I 'rebelled' (at 16+) and the bra until it was a necessity. Given my experience, I know that things like that can damage a girl's self esteem and my own DDs will not have to deal with that ridiculousness from me.

It would have to be on a case-by-case basis that each decision was made for each particular girl and her situation. My parameters include the girl just being too darn young to be concerned with such things and on the other end, a parent being too controlling and damaging the girl.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I voted yes, but I'm picturing a kid with a unibrow, being made fun of and all that. I tend to put things on a scale of one to ten on how harmful it is, this ranks about a two. Did you read the recent mothering article about the thirteen year old getting her bellybutton pierced?

and no, I don't wax my eyebrows because I don't think they need it (picture link in my sig, if anyone wants to comment, but I think I have fairly normal eyebrows). I just don't see waxing eyebrows as something inherently damaging to a child's psyche, and 11 is about the age most children start worrying about things like this.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momof3inMI*
You really shoud be putting the wax on with the hair growth and pulling against it.

That's what I said...?

Quote:

If you want to use something other than a butter knife get some wooden coffee stirsticks and tounge depressors. The stirsticks are for face and small spots the tounge depressors are for legs, underarms, & bikini area.
Have fun.








All of the wooden stuff breaks. We get a bit exuberant when stirring the wax, perhaps? I don't have enough patience to do anything below the neck, but I seem to get more hair every year. I get strays on my chin now sometimes... and the other day Rain plucked a long hair out from inside of my ear! Major ugh... she kept thinking it was a stray hair from my head, but it was attached. I hope this is not a portent of things to come, because I would not feel comfortable smearing wax inside my ears...

dar


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I hope this is not a portent of things to come, because I would not feel comfortable smearing wax inside my ears...

hehehe


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## Jaydens_mom (Aug 12, 2006)

I personally was cursed with dark body hair.. my arms have always had what i though to be THICK black hair.. not gorrilla thick.. but boyish indeed.
My mom noted my concern and proceeded to wax them for me on more than one occasion... she did this about 3-4 times and eventually I told her I didn't need it anymore as i have learned to accept it.
Dark thick hair is a part of my background. Being 1/2 German i have excess facial hair (black hairs sprouting from my chin, and a femstash..(female mustach ) so my mother had intruduced me to the wonderfull painfree world of facial hair bleaching kits!

These are a great alternative to waxing that darker facial hair that may lead to your teen daughter being teased in school for having a "mustach" like i was. It doesn't REMOVE the hair, it simply bleaches it to a light blonde/clear color so that it is virtually UN NOTICABLE unless someone gets an inch from her face and closely inspects that bleached region.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Bleaching made us look like we had glowing blonde mustaches... the hair was lighter than our skin, and it looked very odd. We save bleach for head-hair now...

My arms are pretty hairy, too, but I've never really been bothered by it. Rain's arm hair isn't as thick as mine, though, and she doesn't have my hairy hobbit toes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sierratahoe*
If the child is experiencing teasing at school, just makes me all the happier we are homeschooling .

When I was young, my mother wouldn't allow me to shave my legs nor would she buy me a 'training bra'. I presented the requests at an appropriate age (not 11) but was denied the shaving until I 'rebelled' (at 16+) and the bra until it was a necessity.

I'm not sure how old your daughter is, but being homeschooled hasn't isolated my child from other kids, both schooled and homeschooled. By 11, she was spending lots of time away from me, with other kids, and I'm sure teasing happened...

Also, my kid _needed_ a bra at 11, even though I was not thrilled about buying her one. I rarely wear them... but she did need one then, or at least her boobs were big enough that when she didn't wear one, she sometimes looked... well, you know. B-cups on the loose...

dar


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
Houdidni,,,I have answered this question several times. It is NOT okay for my child to alter their appearance in any way. I do not believe in ear piercing, highlights, manicures, etc for little girls or boys. I do allow them to cut their hair but really only to keep it out of their eyes...

WOW!! So you don't even clip their little nails? You just let them grow and grow until they break off? That seem kind of cruel to me. But, hey, at least there not conforming to anyone else's beauty standards.









Except yours.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Not that I agree with numom's ideas or practices, but nail clipping is a safety, comfort (physical) and hygeine issue. Let's be real here.


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## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

She said

Quote:

It is NOT okay for my child to alter their appearance *in any way*.
Right. Let's be real. Whether you're removing a bit of nail or a bit of hair, it is altering their appearance.

I've seen people w/ freakishly long nails (IMHO) that were clean and apparently comfortable. I imagine they were also safe.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

I am so blown away at this discussion. I honestly cannot wrap my mind around some of the responses.

What I am really appalled at is how many of the posters here are micromanaging their children's lives. Just because you don't do it and feel it is wrong to alter your appearance or feel that by waxing, shaving, coloring, etc., would be cowtowing to the fashion industry. What about the child's view of themselves and their feeling to make decisions? Wax, hair color, shaving are not the end of the world. This is not the most important decision a child will ever make. It is actually, in my not so humble opinion, probably a decision they SHOULD make. It is not permanent.

If my son wanted a mohawk, fine. It's hair, it will grow back. Would I like it? Um, no. Is it my head? No. Do I have to live with the commentary? No. Will it help him learn something about life and himself? Probably.

We have to let our children take a chance to explore themselves. You never know. They might just say you were right.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Well, seriously now, wouldn't wearing clothing be altering your appearance too? Make-up does somewhat the same thing as clothing does. Bras that lift and squish and stuff. Shoes that make you taller and slimming colors. Colors that bring out your eye color and how about putting your hair up? It makes your neck and face look slimmer.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
how about putting your hair up? It makes your neck and face look slimmer.

Not my face and neck


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

So all of you who don't want them to wax because you're raising them "to accept themselves", do you interpret their desire to wax as proof of your failure as a parent, and that's the reason you'd forbid it? Sounds pretty selfish to me. Sounds like it sets the child up to believe that others get to decide about whose body it really is.

?? Help me out here!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
Sounds like it sets the child up to believe that others get to decide about whose body it really is.

?? Help me out here!









: What happens when girls are in relationships with men who want them to alter or not alter their appearance in a way that is pleasing to the man, regardless of her feelings?


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## secretresistance (Dec 2, 2005)

:


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

wende said:


> Maybe you should quit conforming and make the doll manufacturers create a doll that has one long hair growing from it's forehead.[/QUOTE
> 
> I am crying with laughter over this comment.
> 
> ...


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## Jaydens_mom (Aug 12, 2006)

OK first off...

There are 3 different beliefs in this thread:
1) waxing and shaving should be allowed it is a conformity/w.e else...
2) the child should be able to decide when she is ready
3) it should only be allowed when they child is BEGGING for it because she is feeling teased

Telling your daughter, "no you cannot wax your legs, eventhough you are being made fun of and coming home crying everynight, its not right!" is the same as making up her mind for her.

She is telling you what she would like to do, and giving you a GOOD reason... yet you are still telling her no because you don't want her to conform?

SHAVING AND WAXING IS NOT CONFORMING!

sure millions of women shave / wax / pluck hairs on thier body, but not all of them do it to fit in.

Some women just don't LIKE being hairy all over.

This is a site filled with ANTI- Circ, Anti- Vax and Gentle Discipline believers... but when it comes down to something as petty as body hair, it's an auto matic NO?!

I don't understand how you can be all " its the childs choice to alter his/her genitals when he/she is older, not the choice of the mother or father" in one thread, then come in here and say that you wouldn't allow your daughter who has asked to shave her legs, to do so because you don't think it is right....

That is inflicting your VIEWS onto your child.

If you don't want to shave your legs thats fine, but don't be all pro-child's choice in one thread, then start talking about making up thier mind for them in another.. its hypocritical


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## Jaydens_mom (Aug 12, 2006)

Im also not saying that you should let your daughter pluck away or wax away at her eyebrows till there is nothing left, or wax/shave every place on her body....

I am basically saying, you are not giving your daughter the freedom of choice if you are telling her no for your OWN reasons.

You can still have say in what exaccctttllyyy she does, and offer different suggestions to how she does it...

instead of shaving, she could wax. Instead of waxing, she could just cream hair removers..

Instead of drastically waxing/plucking her brows, she can define her arch and remove some of the strays and thats it..

It doesn't have to be something DRASTIC, but something that makes her feel like you understood that she is her own person, and that her decisions mean something to you...

any decision can be a decision you make TOGETHER


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## MrsCorell (Aug 16, 2006)

Rather than argue about this, I'm going to tell you a story about my son that I think sums up my thoughts and feelings.

My son is 11 and desperately wanted to grow his hair long. He let it grow to well past his ears and then decided to bleach it blonde. While I cringed everytime I saw his hair for awhile, I slowly became use to it. His father, on the other hand, flipped out when he saw it for the first time. He stated that it wasn't necessary for DS to alter his appearance. That he was too young to make such a decision for himself. DS simply stated: "I am 11. I have to learn to make decisions by myself. It's just hair and it will grow out. If you don't let me begin to make a few decisions by myself now, I won't know how when I am an adult and I could really make bad decisions." Needless to say, I now let DS have a say in most decision made about his life.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
WOW!! So you don't even clip their little nails? You just let them grow and grow until they break off? That seem kind of cruel to me. But, hey, at least there not conforming to anyone else's beauty standards.









Except yours.

their nails get cut. I meant, they aren't "painting" their nails.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Not that I agree with numom's ideas or practices, but nail clipping is a safety, comfort (physical) and hygeine issue. Let's be real here.

thanks, cookiemonstermommy. I do allow them to cut their nails. I'm just not into little girls (or boys) getting manicures...


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *messy mama*
She said

Right. Let's be real. Whether you're removing a bit of nail or a bit of hair, it is altering their appearance.

I've seen people w/ freakishly long nails (IMHO) that were clean and apparently comfortable. I imagine they were also safe.

so I should have said, except in terms of safety. I allow my children to cut their nails and hair. If they had bushy eyebrows that were inhibiting their vision, I would allow them to trim them or something. Okay???

Lets be real. I don't believe that prettens need to be grroming themselves according to standards set for grown women.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
So all of you who don't want them to wax because you're raising them "to accept themselves", do you interpret their desire to wax as proof of your failure as a parent, and that's the reason you'd forbid it? Sounds pretty selfish to me. Sounds like it sets the child up to believe that others get to decide about whose body it really is.

?? Help me out here!

uh, no. My kids don't want to wax. My niece on the other hand has been getting manicures since she was 7. and yes, I do believe that my sister has done her a disservice in encouraging her. And if my dd wanted to wax at 11 i would feel that yes, i had failed in building her self confidence.


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

wow -- I made it to the end to post! That took awhile!

dd has her father's incredibly big beautiful marble-brown eyes -- really soulful. And also his thick brows. She is 8. If in 3 years she wants to thin the brows, I am fine with it. She gets manicures with her aunt. It has nothing to do with not accepting herself and everything to do with enjoying herself and choosing how she wants to look. She doesn't have to have her fathers thick eyebrows( or as she used to call them, eyes brows) if she doesn't want them.

How different is this kind of grooming from other basic things like getting our hair cut, wearing jewelry, or (dd's favorite) putting on nice lotion? It is about enhancing ourselves to please ourselves. Today on the train a man sat down next to me and he had the nicest, subtlest cologne on and it just perked up my tired mood. Could he not properly accept his natural smell? I don't know, but I probably wouldn't have noticed him at all if he hadn't smelled so good.

I used to think nail polish was such a waste of time-- I have crummy nails anyway. But one summer on a lark I let my sister paint them a really pretty color. The next day I took dd swimming--she was 2, and not yet willng to put her face in the water. But that day, fascinated with my nails, I realized she would not only put her face in the water but kick her legs very hard to get nearer to my hands if I wiggled them underwater. That little manicure led to her learning to swim. My sister still loves telling that story about how she got me to wear nail polish.


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