# New Traditional Foods (NT) Thread



## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Here we go!

As Yitlan said, it might be a good idea to keep a recipe thread going in 'Nutrition...'; but in addition to the philosophy tribal thing going here, I'd still like to feel free to post food 'ideas' here... So many of the things we've discussed are not recipes per se, but 'hey, my catsup- does it need to go longer?', 'my bread is a rock!', 'the pickle recipe is too salty!' etc. We do a lot of experimenting in this tribe! It might clutter up an actual 'here- cook this:' recipe thread if we load it up every time we have an issue. Just my thoughts-if y'all want to do it differently, no biggie- I'm a newbie here.

Anyway, let's rock & roll so Abi can archive our old long thread!

Suse


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Okay, I'm here too! I just made several batches of the "Healthy Yeasted Bread" on the WAP website and its really fabulous. Maybe our gluten-free folks could sub sorghum/millet or something similar...but the long fermentation and the 7 hours of rising really does seem to do something "magical" for the bread. Its not quite "sour" enough tasting for me to consider it sourdough, though. I'm still anxiously awaiting my Carl's sourdough starter in the mail. When I made the bread, I tried a trick some of the sourdough afficienadoes had recommended........put a pan of water in the oven when you preheat....then mist the oven for the first couple minutes the bread is in. It seems to give a nice flaky, crispy crust. Sorry to hear about your bread faux pas's Suse & Rebekah







Keep on keepin' on.....I'm sure with a little tweaking, they'll be fine.... Rebekah.....the bitter taste....could your flour have been old or rancid?? I'm rackin' my brain.....(short process, lol)

Lisa


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Thanks for all the work, Suse. I'm so proud a suggestion of mine helped!

We've never been a big bread family, but I'd like to try some. BUT my home is SO HOT in the summer as it is that I absolutely do not turn on the oven from about June-Sept. Has anyone adapted any of the bread recipes for a bread machine? Is it possible? Unless I have a recipe right in front of me, I don't use the ABM, so I'd need specific instructions! Anyone?


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello Lisa, no my flour wasn't rancid, not this time anyway, because I used whole sprouted grains, not made into flour, just ground into a wet paste, right after they finished sprouting and then mixed and put in the oven. It is possible that maybe a little bit of mold had grown on the sprouts maybe? I don't know if that would give it a bitter taste though. Anyway, maybe sorghum just isn't for me. I don't really like the taste of it I guess.

Suse- did you ever eat whole sprouted sorghum? The sprouts were bitter too for some reason, and my husband thought it was nasty tasting too. He usually will eat just about anything!







He thought the bread was less bitter than the raw batter though. Perhaps it only tastes good when it is thoroughly cooked or something maybe? Have you ever eaten raw sorghum? Anyone?


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Hi, all. This thread and the other piqued my interest, but I haven't read everything.

What is the WAP website?


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Chaka.....its www.westonaprice.org OR www.realmilk.org

I don't know about you guys, and I haven't read the article yet, but the soy article in this month's Mothering mag seems to have sparked a backlash on the boards. I knew it was gonna happen......and there seems to be quite an anti-WAP sentiment lately too. Have y'all encountered that? RAF, lol, I know YOU have









Rebekah.....I was curious about your bitter bread problem, so I did a little digging on sorghum. It looks like there's a couple different varieties..but the bitterness comes from something called the testa...."The testa is usually brick red, and even a small amount of red testa left in the flour will give it a pronounced pinkness, which many people find objectionable. If the variety contains tannin, most of it will be found in the testa. Tannin is objectionable for two reasons: it competes for available protein and it has a bitter taste. However, this bitter taste is also a major advantage, because it makes graniverous birds dislike high-tannin sorghums." I guess brown sorghums have more of a testa than yellow or white sorghums.

I've heard good things about "The Gluten-Free Gourmet Bakes Bread" book. I think its by Bette Hagman. Rebekah...the Kennewick library has a copy and its currently checked in. (can you tell I used to be an investigator?? LOL) The West Richland library also has it in right now too. There's a sourdough recipe in there that looks interesting.

Take care all....

Lisa


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello Lisa and other NTers,









I think there has always been an anti-WAP sentiment on this board. Well, for as long as I've been here anyway. Yes, I know, they aren't supposed to be vegan oriented, but that add up at the top that I have seen so often for "vegetarian kids to vegan teens" and the constant bombardment of soy adds in the magazine really make me wonder.

Lisa- Wow! Thanks for the research! I wonder how to tell what type of sorghum I have. I got it from Azure Standard and it looks pretty light colored, but it does have that red stuff in splotches on some of the grains. Did you find anything on how to remove that testy testa? Or is it hopeless. Anyway, I have done quite a bit of gluten free bread baking and most of it is just ick, ick ick. Really gummy and flavorless. This is why I am doing the whole grain soaked and ground into batter thing. Oh by the way, for anyone who is interested in a really great gluten free flat bread (more like 1.5-2 inches thick) recipe that tastes just like sourdough if you let it ferment long, I will post the recipe to the NT recipe section as soon as I have a chance. There was a website for this bread, but it is gone!









Oh by the way, our last pregnant doe finally kidded on Monday. She had an easy time with the first kid, but ended up needing serious help with the last two. She had two babies tangled inside and both were in the birth canal at once. Everyone is doing good now and resting, but I have to bottle feed the two that got stuck because she won't have anything to do with nursing them.







They are very normal, healthy looking kids too. Anyway, so I have got my hands full with kids of all sizes and types.







Okay, I've gotta run now.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spyiispy*
I don't know about you guys, and I haven't read the article yet, but the soy article in this month's Mothering mag seems to have sparked a backlash on the boards. I knew it was gonna happen......and there seems to be quite an anti-WAP sentiment lately too. Have y'all encountered that?

I seem to have gotten the award for "most annoying ex-veg" because I first wrote about my problems with a vegan diet in response to vegmom's thread about vegetarians giving meat to their children, and now because I posted a link to Dr. Michael Greger's online talk about how veg*ns had a 50% greater risk of dying from degenerative brain diseases, and that veg*ns and omnis had the same rate of death from heart disease, stroke, etc. Mind you, he is a vegan doctor, and his site is sponsored by VegSource, so he's not a dairy or meat advocate. http://www.veganmd.org/talks

It's a pity that people will probably discount what he says just because it doesn't jive with what the leaders say. He gives really good advice about EFA's and B12, which I would have been better off knowing about as a vegan. As a former scared vegan in denial a couple years ago, I totally ignored the stories that people like elainie told about problems with the vegan diet. After all, I was one of the "good" ones, right? Ha ha, I'll show them! But in the end, I had to swallow my pride and change my diet. I will not make my child suffer because of dogma.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

hey y'all.

the sorghum i grew i gnawed at the stems for a sweet field treat, and fed the grain to my birds (it was a black african sorghum.) i would like to try the grain tho', if i can get another crop going. it is a beautiful plant.

made a kitchen island today, so i have more cupboard/counter space; yay! it was desperately needed.

i might make the wild blueberry ale tomorrow.
and had first salad from the garden- leaf radish, baby red kale, red lettuces, malabar spinach. very delicate!

late so gotta split, will write more tomorrow when awake.

suse


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## vegmom (Jul 23, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally Posted by toraji_
As a former scared vegan in denial a couple years ago, I totally ignored the stories that people like elainie told about problems with the vegan diet. After all, I was one of the "good" ones, right? Ha ha, I'll show them! But in the end, I had to swallow my pride and change my diet. I will not make my child suffer because of dogma.
Oh my! I just posted my story about dd's health problems in a thread about vegan pregnancies in the 'Im pregnant' forum. Just by saying that we encountered health problems due to veganism made other posters accuse me of being insulting and saying that they are jeopordizing their childrens health to be vegan. I also stated that I was not going to jeopordize my dc's health to be vegan/vegetarian and I guess people took that statement the wrong way.

I must admit that I was one of those vegans in denial. My neighbor who is a master herbalist even told me to feed dd meat because she had seen communities who did not eat meat have rotten teeth. That was 6-7months before dd started having her problems. I never would have thought that eating meat and tooth decay would in anyway be related. Live and learn.

We are eating more and more meat... Today I cooked a whole chicken, my first meat ever. Dh has been the one to handle all the meat so far. But the chicken turned out really good. We even cooked the organs up with some onions and they were really yummy. Although dd still does not like the meat but will eat the juices/oils when put on other foods. But once in a while she will surprise me and take a little in her mouth and not spit it out. Today she prefered the salad to the meat. I never thought a toddler would ever prefer veggies over yummy meat.

I was wondering how you can make kefir to have a carbonated flavor? I bought some in the store and it was so delicious. Normally when I buy kefir it is really thick and lumpy, but this stuff is very light and creamy and kind of bubbles in the mouth. I have never attempted to make kefir but I do want to attempt it in the near future.

toraji and elainie- thanks again for your imput. I really appreciate it. I feel guilty for putting my dd through this whole ordeal but knowing that both of you have reversed tooth decay through diet has given me hope that I have not caused permanent damage.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I've been following the soy thread, too. I've seen the veg*n/omni clashes elsewhere, and I've always found that the veg*ns were being more insulting/bashing, but it was a vocal minority. Of course, it always seems worse when you're feeling attacked; we need a non-eating third party to figure it out.







I think, for me, the problem is that so many veg*ns are eating that way for moral reasons, while we're doing it for health, so we're probably not so emotionally attached. And Veg*ns also have to deal with people who just think they are weird, yk? When they are out IRL, they likely are being attacked more, but at a board like this, they are in concentrated numbers. I myself have wanted to point out some stuff I didn't agree with that veg*ns had said in other threads, but I didn't want to cross the line between discussing and bashing, since I tend to be a bit clueless about where it is.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

WAP happened to come up with my brother on messenger the other day, and he seemed really interested. He wants to eat better and has agreed to let me butt in and help him. He's 17, quite athletic, and living at home. He's out in the sticks, is in school, and works a few hours. My parents are big into convenience foods. Anyone have any advice for helping him? He's addicted to cola sodas, so I advised him to work on cutting them out first, as well as other refined stuff as much as he could. I figure once school's out in the summer, he'll have more time for food prep, and then he's off to university in the fall.

Any suggestions?


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Thanks for telling me what WAP stands for. I'm not good with acronyms.

Okay, I'm making a chicken stock according to the NT recipe. It says to use the whole chicken. I have 2 questions:

1- I thought I could make chicken stock just using used bones. Can I not do that?

2- Why do non-organic chickens not produce the gelatin? (that's what Sally says in the book, but I didn't see a reason for the claim.)

Thanks! This thread is great!

Also, what is you all's experience with growing your own sprouts? I read a book on it and I love the taste of them, but I haven't tried growing them yet. It seems so daunting, tho I read it's very simple. But, yesterday, I saw a sprouter thing in the health food store and I'm tempted to buy it.

So, any experiences/thoughts anyone would like to share on sprouting? I'd appreciate it.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Sprouting is VERY easy! I'm sure there's gotta be instructions online. I do have one of the "gadgets" I got as a gift. I need to dig it out. I got out of the habit when I was pregnant with my first and never got back into it. But you can do sprouts with just a glass jar and wire top, as she shows in the book.

Brisen, I think your advice is good. I believe any changes in diet habits, whether NT or others, need to be done slowly. Baby steps! Cutting out soda is a HUGE one for many. That could take him all summer and then he'll be swimming in it again in college. So it'll be great if he can beat it now. Anyway, maybe suggest to him that he read the ingredients on what he eats. He doesn't have to NOT eat it, but it might start making him aware of how much goes into his body that he cannot pronounce! Just a thought...


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Chaka~we cant always afford organic chickens or turkeys. i always make bone broth from just the carcass of bones and it makes a fine broth with gelatin (ie it sets up like jello in the fridge.) i think it would be a waste to boil down a whole chicken unless she was a tough old layer hen.









i also agree that sprouting is very easy to do at home. http://www.sprouting.com/homesprouting.htm

i completed my first fermentation project! (yay me). i made rejuvelac and it turned out pretty well. i read somewhere online that the spent grains can be used as sourdough starter, so that's my next project.

The sprouted wheats were really sweet and tasty . Does anyone know if it's okay to eat them like that? (in terms of phytic acid, gluten breakdown or other weirdness, i mean)


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Chaka........I rarely have organic chicken as well and sometimes I get gelatin, sometimes I don't. I just throw in a tablespoon or two of powdered gelatin for good measure. And yes, I use a whole chicken.....and take off the meat after its cooked....then I continue to cook the bones down for about 24 hours. The meat I save for soup or whatever. I've found that cooking the meat for 24 hours gives it a very soggy, mushy consistency. I keep the veggies in for the 24 hours too.....then after I'm done with them.....the doggy gets them.

I'm not sure why Sally recommends using a whole chicken.......possibly (and I'm just speculating here...) if you use bones that have already been cooked....the stock wouldn't be as beneficial, seeing as how some of the calcium and gelatin has been cooked out already.

Suse.....that wild blueberry ale sounds pretty darn yummy......let us know how it turns out. Did you use your black african sorghum for human consumption??

Rebekah....I'm not sure if there's any way to get the testa off once its there......besides some mega-processing. The trick, it appears, is to get the yellow or white variety of sorghum. I think there's also a bronze variety. Maybe you could complain to Azure.....tell them you got a very bitter batch. FINALLY....you got your baby goats! I'm glad you guys were so vigilant....those other two might not have made it. Yayy, triplets! I bet they're cute


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Shannon.........I'd send him a web page on what exactly soda does to his body, so he can print it out and stick it on the fridge...so when he's tempted, he can read it. Also....is it feasible for him to get a copy of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price?? Its pretty interesting reading, even for a 17 year old







Is he interested in sports?? You might try the angle that eating healthy and cutting out the crap will give him a definite edge over his competitors. Guys dig that ego stuff...lol...especially teenage guys.

Lisa


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I know some people just use a carcass from a roasted chicken. I don't think that the calcium would be cooked out of the bones though, since it takes soaking in vinegar water to pull the calcium out of stock bones. There should be some meat in the stock though (perhaps this is why Sally recommends using a whole chicken, plus it's more convenient, and it's probably the most traditional way from back when they used old hens) for adding potassium to the broth.
What a great idea to take off the meat justa fter it's cooked through. Never thought of that. Maybe if we make it that way, we'll be sure to eat up the chicken meat after. Dh tried using it for a chicken salad, and he could hardly stomach it (and he's not picky with his meats). Or just use an old hen next time









Yeah, those vegans...I got it pretty bad at one point too. Veganmomma (or something similar) used to call me a troll! That was sort of amusing, until she just couldn't stop accusing me of having evil intentions despite my efforts to reconcile. I love trolls though, my favorite books from childhood are about trolls, and my favorite kid-movie, also







. An ex of mine used to say I looked like one too (I get big frizzy hair sometimes). I know that vegans on this board like to keep it a safe haven. But sorry...







, I just like to provide different sides of the story.


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

do you think lemon would be acidic enough to pull calcium out of the bones? i havent tried adding vinegar when i'm simmering a bone broth, but it seems like it would taste too weird for me. Lemon on the other hand...


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moss*
do you think lemon would be acidic enough to pull calcium out of the bones? i havent tried adding vinegar when i'm simmering a bone broth, but it seems like it would taste too weird for me. Lemon on the other hand...
















How about cider vinegar? I have no idea if lemon would do it or not, but this could be another option.

I've introduced my mom to NT and also passed along the Rubin book (Patient, Heal Thyself), as they stand on some of the same principles. Now, she started drinking goat milk, but the ultrapasteurized Meyenberg brand. Am I right in telling her RAW milk is the way to go and that she probably isn't getting any benefits from the Meyenberg?


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Oh no!









So I've been doing chicken stock wrong this whole time?! So let me get this straight--you are suppost to put (I use whole chickens) it in the pot *raw* and then take off the chicken meat when it cooks, but keep the bones/carcass and vegetables in the pot for several hours? I've just been roasting the chicken like normal and then eat it for dinner and then make the broth with the bones overnight. So this is not right?

trying to figure this out..


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

tweetybird, I think either way is fine (from what I'm reading here), it's just that having meat in the stock when you cook it adds to potassium levels, etc.

Thanks for answers, everyone! I bought an organic chicken anyway, but it was soooo expensive!

*spiispy*, in case I ever want to buy gelatin, is there a certain brand you would recommend?


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

moss........you can't even taste the apple cider vinegar when its added to the broth. Be brave!!


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Hey Chaka........I just grabbed some at the local health food store cuz I needed it right then......but I've heard good things about the gelatin at Radiant Life (Bernard Jensen's). The website is www.4radiantlife.com or you can order it at 888-593-8333. Its not cheap.....$12.95 for 14 oz.

Lisa


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## vegmom (Jul 23, 2003)

Can I ask what the nutritional value of the gelatin is? Would it not set the whole broth and turn it into Jello?


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tweetybirds2*
Oh no!









So I've been doing chicken stock wrong this whole time?! So let me get this straight--you are suppost to put (I use whole chickens) it in the pot *raw* and then take off the chicken meat when it cooks, but keep the bones/carcass and vegetables in the pot for several hours? I've just been roasting the chicken like normal and then eat it for dinner and then make the broth with the bones overnight. So this is not right?

trying to figure this out..

i dont think it's wrong to do it either way. just different. i do however like the idea of simmering the broth overnight...i usually do mine the next day.

i'll try to be brave the next time i make broth!! babysteps here. :LOL


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

The first time I made chicken stock I used a regular chicken from Albertson's, and it didn't gel. But the free-range ones I've been getting since always do. I think it is just hit or miss with the non-free ranged ones like someone else already mentioned. I just put the whole chicken in and we use the chicken for chicken salad sandwhiches...but we make a mayo sauce with lots of spices to give it some flavor.

My kombucha is brewing...I had left my "mushrooms" in the fridge a little longer than usual and was worried about them still being okay, but it's day three and I'm noticing some bubbles







. I love my kombucha. I didn't drink any for about 2 weeks, and the last few days I've been drinking it again my energy level is higher and my skin isn't so dry. Does anyone else here actually like the taste of kombucha? My dh hates it...but me, I LOVE it. I've been using green tea instead of black...what do you all use if you are making it?

RAF...so you have goats? Wow, that's pretty cool. I keep telling my dh that when we finally can buy a house we need to get some goats







. How much land do you need to support a goat or goats? It's going to be a year or two but I want everything planned out way before then. I want goats, and some chickens...we eat so many eggs!

It was co-op day last weekend and I ended up taking hope lots of extra bananas....my house smells like banana as they are drying in the dehydrator. Smells good.

Brisen...when my husband FINALLY decided to quit drinking soda his health started improving immediately. He immediateyly started to lose weight, his heart-burn disappeared and he finally got enough energy to start lifting weights again. Soda free is a wonderful first step.

April


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't put as much vingear in as called for because I'm afraid it'd get too acidic (I get nasty heartburns from anything acidic like cultured dairy, sauerkraut, lemons--all the good things







). But I also want as much calcium pulled out of the bones, so I try to add a little more every time. So far, I've been alright.

I think the reason why commercial chickens don't make gelatin-rich broths is because they're not free to roam and therefor don't have healthy bones. Also,they don't get fed right.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

vegmom! I read your posts in the pregnancy forum. You rock!!!

elainie, thank you so much for your support in the good eating forum. I heart you big time!

Switching to the topic of kefir...
I am apparently getting used to the flavor, or the mustiness has decreased. I started rinsing the grains with water between milk changes, and now it is not so bad. I still prefer the flavor of the yogurt though.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

ok... does anyone know offhand the bacteria that are in the grains-cultured kefir, in that polysaccharide mass?

i got some commersh kefir for the first time in awhile, just to check it out... it has a list of a bunch of bacteria and i am wondering what is the same? what is different? can they be combined? if the commersh kefir isn't made from grains but a starter culture, can it also be cultured? is it mesophilic like grains-kefir, or thermophilic like yogurt, or just impossible to culture in any way? who has experimented with this? (i have some buttermilk culture too- is it a different culture than the sour cream?) i want to know what lives in what, dammit, lol!

suse


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Sorry, Suse. I don't know.

Thanks, Lisa. I get my butteroil from Radiant Life. I guess I should look through the catalog.









*question*: Any thoughts about freezing stock in mason jars instead of plastic? I try not to use plastics as much as possible, but I'm not sure about freezing something in glass.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Chaka Falls- I freeze things in glass all the time. I've never had a problem. Just leave about an inch clearance at the top and thaw at a gradual rate.


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Thank you!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

from Dom's Kefir In-Site (everything you ever want or need to know about kefir!): http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html
Typical Microflora Isolated from Kefir Grains Divided into Four Genus groups

LACTOBACILLI

Lb. acidophilus
Lb. brevis
Lb. casei
Lb. casei subsp. rhamnosus
Lb. casei subsp. pseudoplantarum
Lb. paracasei subsp. paracasei
Lb. cellobiosus
Lb. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus
Lb. delbrueckii subsp. lactis
Lb. fructivorans
Lb. helveticus subsp. lactis
Lb. hilgardii
Lb. kefiri
Lb. kefiranofaciens
*Lb. kefirgranum sp. nov
*Lb. parakefir sp. nov
Lb. lactis
Lb. plantarum

STREPTOCOCCI/LACTOCOCCI

Lactococci lactis subsp. lactis
Lc. lactis var. diacetylactis
Lc. lactis subsp. cremoris
Streptococci salivarius subsp. thermophilus
S. lactis
Enterococcus durans
Leuconostoc cremoris
Leuc. mesenteroides

YEASTS

Candida kefir
C. pseudotropicalis
C. rancens
C. tenuis
Kluyveromyces lactis
Kluyveromyces marxianus var. marxianus
K. bulgaricus
K. fragilis / marxianus
Saccharomyces subsp. Torulopsis holmii
Saccharomyces lactis
S. carlsbergensis
S. unisporus
**Debaryomyces hansenii
**Zygosaccharomyces rouxii

ACETOBACTER

Acetobacter aceti
A. rasens


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

I'll have to check out that site. Thanks for posting a link. My next step is kefir.

My stock evaporated.







I was going to simmer it for 24 hours as suggested in the book, but I woke up to the smell of it burning. I hope someone here can give me some insight as to why so I can not burn it next weekend.

I was using a gas stove. I put it on a really low flame, but could this be the cause?

I noticed that once I got it to boil, then turned it down and covered it, it never stopped boiling. Could that be the reason?

I took the meat off the bones after 3 hours so I could use it in a recipe. Could this be why?

I'm just hoping you all can give me some ideas to work with. I was soooooo looking forward to having some homemade stock.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

My Mum made chicken stock the whole time when I was growing up. She was a good ol' colonial South African housewife. Except that she worked fulltime & we lived in England but she still had a lot of the habits..

She used to use the carcass from leftover roast chicken. Organic free range chickens cost an arm & leg here so if dh wants one he has to have the whole lot







I just boil all the left overs up in a massive big pot with water, bay leaves, & the left over veges. I roast chooks with lemon quarters so they go in too & some vinegar. I leave it just under boiling point for quite a long time. Mine gels up big time & is quite fatty. I know ppl here who bump off their chooks when they stop laying & make chicken stock from them. Apparently once a chook is over a year old, you may as well eat a pukeko as they are so tough !

My latest attempt at other lacto-fermented stuff is some ginger beer. We have the old as the hills family recipe but it uses commercial yeast, which is a no no for us. I have been putting 2 tsp of sugar & a tsp of ginger powder in a little jar of water for about 4 days now. It is getting fizzy!!!

I have also found a supply of organic cider apples as my trees are too young right now. Plus are too exposed where they are & the sheep gave them rather a massive prune







So I am going to try to make some cider out the NT. Was it Suse who was making cider or was it mead ?

As to the vegans. Well I have a lot of sympathy & it never made me ill that I could think of. Altho' my hair did fall out big time after I had dd#2 whilst I was vegan. There are too many inconsistencies ethically for me to still be vegan. Well that & the TRUTH about margerine.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

mead, cider, & as of today, a 6 gallon batch of ale! (i need to get a bung/airlock that will fit my cider jug, lol; the condom i'm using may work ok for sandor katz in a queer intentional community, but my teenage dd freaked out, & sammy just loves that 'special balloon', plus my dad is visiting next week and it is too weird when the rubber suddenly pops up, all dick-shaped and perky-like.)

re:ginger beer- my next project... from what i am reading in 'sacred and herbal beers', the aspergillus culture used to make koji (for sake, miso, amazake) is cultured in the dried ginger starter! so not only can i make ginger beer (which i adore), but may not have to drop 10 bucks for a koji culture at my winemaking store! i had no idea.

tor, i should've known dom would have the info- omg, is ALL that in one batch of grains, or just stuff he's found at different times? amazing! (i think most of them are in the starter commersh kefir; i still wonder if it is starterable.)

i made dressing from toasted bread from one of my good *half* sprouted loaves- yum. i think it was the best i've made (very thick & nearly psychotropic with all the fresh sage i put in.) the animals don't even want the all-sprout loaf; i'm seeing if the wildings are so picky now.

and a spinach souffle (or 'fouffle', as sam puts it) with the goat-cheese i'd made... after aging, it had a creamy cottage cheese texture, but with almost a blue cheese flavor. i was a little frightened, like i suppose the first cheesemakers usually were, but it tasted good, & didn't make me sick, so in it went into the souffle.

wow, cheese i made, bread i baked, with my beer-wort bubbling away at my cauldron; i felt very druidical. (







factory chicken tho'; we were poor this week.) btw, i've always had great gelling with most any chicken i stockify.

'the secret life of plants' is a great book (by the same guy with the sacred and healing herbal beers) and all the vegetarian mockers ought to read it (well, everyone should; it's a great book.) i haven't dug back into the thread since i have my opinion already and someone has already mentioned this book there, but i wonder if anyone is coming out of it with a new respect for plant consciousness?

suse

edit- i meant most of the bacteria in the commercial kefir are listed in the grains, sory, i mispoke.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I'll often find that my stock has nearly boiled away overnight, but if I turn the heat down any more, it doesn't simmer, and then I'm worried that it isn't staying hot enough to kill germies. I just add water before I go to bed and check it throughout the day. Mine always gels fine, I don't think I've had a batch that hasn't once I started leaving it for more than a day. I have a friend who makes stock, she says her water never reduces, but she may have it at a lower temp than I do. I usually use the bird carcass left over from a roast; I also buy beef stock bones from the same farm where I get my meat.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

I'm a bit of a ninny when it comes to leaving foods cooking unattended. Plus my dogs and cat may find the scent too tempting and that could be disasterous. Could the stock be moved to a crockpot on high? Or would that be too low of heat? If anyone has tried it I'd love to here how it turned out.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

crockpot stock has worked fine for me- the thing w/ crockpots is they all have different levels of heat. but there's no mysterious 'this will work in a crockpot but not in a dutch oven' (or vice versa) hocus pocus- it's just long, slow cooking. my new one has a 'warm' setting ideal for yogurt. hot, in newer crockpots, gets quite a bit hotter than older ones.

a covered stockpot with plenty of water in an oven overnight at 200 doesn't dry up for me. but my new stove has a 'sure-simmer' setting that i generally use now.

suse


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Brisen-If your stock dries during night it's probably because the lid isn't tight-fitting enough. I have one that has a tiny hole which gets plugged up with grease after a couple of hours. Don't use a lid with edges that run on the inside of the pot.
Your pot should simmer at the lowest possible, but to the point where it's still too hot to touch the liquid.

Suseyblue-I'm getting real anxious to start making mead, cider and beer. It sounds so good. What book do you get your recipes from?


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Thanks for the info suseyblue. I can't wait to pick up some more chx and get some stock made.







We're in the process of moving so I'm trying to keep things simple. Gotta get back to areobatic nurser.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I saw one of the guys I know who keeps free range organic chooks today. He's one of the ones who bops them off when they stop laying. Well he has some corpses in the freezer that I can have to make stock out of. Here's hoping they're plucked already







Does anyone know if stock freezes ?


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Oh my, I'm coming to this thread late!

Toraji, yes I too am an annoying ex-vegan! It's been said ex's are the worst.

You can freeze stock nut I keep mine in huge mason jars in fridge.

In winter we put it in the garage as I tend to make a pretty hefty amount.

We use stock in lots of things (soups, sauces, cooking greens etc..) the best is to drink the broth after you've cooked hardy greens in it.
I feel it remineralizing my bones.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I have a saurkraut question. I was just looking at wildfermentation.com, and Katz's instructions don't have the kraut in an airtight container. Is having it airtight important only if I'm making it in mason jars and won't be placing a weight on it? I don't think I'm up to making 5 cabbages worth of kraut quite yet -- I was planning on half a head.


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Thanks for the advice on the stock, folks.







I talked to some friends about it, too, and they thought the gas stove was a factor. I was going to try a crockpot, but I'd need a really huge one and I already have 2. So, I bought a 12-qt. stock pot yesterday and I'm going to buy an electric eye and see if that's better. I'll be making another stock this weekend.

*brisen*, I have a Solomon, too! Not too many folks naming their kids that these days.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Brisen- Have you checked out the NT 'kraut recipe? My DH loves it and it only calls for 1 head.
Oceanmama- My sister told me a handy trick. Freeze stoin ice cube trays then transfer them to a baggie and you canuse as much or as little as you need.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I'll go look out some icecube trays. I think we've only got one.

Elainie. I remember you saying that your children's bone structure was different since you stopped being vegan. Do you think, if you change their diet early enuf, you can correct their jaw & teeth development? How much of it is hiereditory ? The reason I ask is dd#2 has quite a small jaw & her teeth look like they are going to be very crowded when she gets bigger. She's been drinking raw milk & eating lots of raw butter & fish oil since about November & I am sure her teeth are spacing out & straightening a bit. She is only just 3 so it may not be that at all. She was vegan until she was nearly 2.


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## DreamWeaver (May 28, 2002)

Hi!!
Have not been to MDC in ages and so glad to find this thread/tribe!

Trying to deal with this "new" way of eating and initally a lot of objections from dh- cld not digest meat, house stinks of animal fats, even baby dd stinks of animal fats, etc etc etc!! (yeah, we are ex-veggies)

oh well, I'm going to try kefir, but for now I'm using a lot of butter, bacon fat, yogurt, CLO, coconut milk..... soak all my nuts, try to make chicken stock as often as possible. Eat meat abt 3-4 times a week, any more often and dh will make noise again.... sighz

The baked goods recipes I've tried so far were terrible, urgh!! Hate to waste all those flour, and time, so now I'm baking with sprouted spelt flour (bought from my co-op)....

Anyway, just wanted to drop in, and hope I can contribute some time....


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

I just found this thread! I first heard about Nourishing Traditions from some comments on the health boards here and have read almost everything on the westonaprice website. I've been trying to incorporate things from the westonaprice.org (com?) website into my cooking for several months now. I use the organic coconut oil (so awesome for popcorn) and have switched to whole unhomogenized organic milk (haven't had the guts to by raw yet, LOL). I love the alvarado street bakery sprouted breads and bagels... I want to make sauerkraut really soon too. How exciting!

Oh, about me, I was about 80% veg and only chicken/fish for almost 10 years. Upon getting pregnant I craved red meat like crazy and started eating buffalo, lamb and some beef again and we still do. I'm trying to stay with free range and organic/wild meat but like everyone says, those free range chickens are $$$. Still working on it.

** Can someone help me find the archived thread? I didn't see it under Finding Your Tribe Archives.

I want to make chicken broth SO badly... I think you've all inspired me.

*Suseyblue,* your blueberry ale, mead and ginger beer sound AWESOME. What book do you use? DH and I love microbrews and bottle fermented unpasteurized trappist ales. I have a bottle of mead in the fridge. I wonder if it has any benficial properties other than tastiness, LOL.

I will definitely be back to this thread!


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)




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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I made some of the yeasted/soaked bread with fresh whole wheat flour. It was amazing! I used to make regular yeasted bread all the time, and I could never get the dough to a nice consistency. If it were dry enough to not stick to my hands, it was too thick/heavy/dry. This dough was amazing -- supple, moist, but it didn't stick to anything once I started kneading it. I soaked it in whey/water instead of buttermilk because I don't have any buttermilk and our milk budget is limited, I prefer making yogurt and thickening it up by removing some of the whey, and then using that for the baking. The bread turned out great also, my 4 yo keeps on asking for homemade bread for a "treat." I'm so glad with how this has turned out! I hope sourdoughing goes as well when I get around to it...


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

omg, i posted the books, where did it go?
uh, mad about mead? homebrewer's recipe guide? dang it, the books aren't stacked right here like when i POSTED them the first time (maybe it was too controversial & got deleted, lol)... anyway, i only have a sec, but i put the bag full of wild blueberries in the pomegranate/boysenberry juice beer today, & it tastes like beer! wow! i couldn't believe it. definately quicker than mead or cider (i haven't done the ginger beer yet, i've had my hands full with baby sleep issues lately. but i'm gonna try to get the ginger bug started soon to work on my koji, i just got two 3 gallon carboys! and i had my batch of kraut the other night in a hungarian dish, it was quite tasty.)

suse


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

It's really cool to hear all the different projects everyone is doing. So far I just have the Nourishing Traditions book and I'm loving it. The next book I want to get is Wild Fermentation! Hopefully we can get it in the next few weeks.

Recently: I made my first two quarts of cortido. Good stuff, I like the spice. I also added apples to a different batch of regular sauerkraut and that's yummy too. And I just made my first quart of ginger carrots...those are for my mom for mother's day. Soaking right now is my dough for banana bread, and dough for my first whole grain crackers. And some apple slices are in the dehydrator now as another mother's day gift...my mom's been requesting apple chips for a while now. Oh yeah, I made some NT blueberry muffins but I didn't have vanilla extract so they taste more like bread than muffins...not bad with butter and a little raw honey on it though.

Kombucha drinkers: how long do you all brew yours for? Do you leave any sweetness or do you like yours really sour? I've been experimenting with it...wondering what everyone else likes.

And speaking of chicken stock, mine is simmering away. I put fennel stalks in it instead of celery, I think it's going to taste yummy. It sure smells great right now!

Has anyone made the piima milk from NT? How does it taste?

April


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chaka Falls*
*brisen*, I have a Solomon, too! Not too many folks naming their kids that these days.









No, he's the only one we've met so far. I really liked the name Saul before he was born, but of course people usually try to name their kids after a positive role model if they're using a famous name. (I somehow, though, managed to miss realizing that Solomon had all those wives and concubines...) I thought I would shorten his name to Sol to sound like Saul, but I don't, if anything I lengthen it -- Solly-olly-oooooooolomon! if I'm calling for him, that kind of thing.

So we have Darwin who, when he is introduced to someone, is often asked about his theory, and Solomon, who is usually called wise when we tell someone his name. I would love the name Dell for a girl, but then I realized that there's the computer company called Dell... one of our kids should get to have a more inconspicuous name!


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

Wow! An NT/WAP thread! Hi!







I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet but has stock been discussed already? I have problems with my beef stock gelling properly. I had the same problem with the chicken until I added more wings to it. Any ideas on what else to add to my beef stock? I can't find hooves anyplace!


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Do you know anyone with horses ? Someone suggested to me I should get the hoof trimmings off the horse next time he gets shoed & boil them up. The only caution I would suggest is if the horses are drenched chemically. I know the chemical drenches in the farm supply place say they have a 60 day meat withholding period on them







I have no idea how this would effect their hooves tho'

Worldsharkerz - I







Kombucha. I've only just gotten into it. Mine goes fizzy & is sort of sweet & sour. I'm ISO a bigger vessel to make it in as we can drink the whole lot way before the next brew is ready.

My missions for this week are to scour the antique stores in town for old pottery/glass/enamel containers for fermenting things in. I also got my hands on probably a quart of organic raw whey I am going to do stuff with.


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

HI all- joining in late, but I'm loving this thread! so many of the things discussed in here resonate with what I've been trying to do, and I'm gonna have to look into NT. Never heard of it before this-
Suseyblue- awesome projects you have going!! woo hoo! I connect with that 'druid' energy you got. When I have something bubbling or fermenting I feel in touch with our ancestors and with mother earth.
The biggest thing I got from this discussion is using real fresh yeast- not the store-bought-- makes sense. My dh brought me some sourdough starter, but I have yet to use it.
ANy suggestions where to start with homemade kefir? We love kefir but can't afford the habit- making our own would be the best way, eh?


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

also wanted to add in regard to freezing stock- we made a big batch the other day and froze some in tupperware and most in big ol' glass jars- cooled it down beforehand, allowed an inch of room, yet it cracked on us, every one of those big ol' glass jars! our beautiful organic chicken stock with roasted veggies!








those jars were from thrift shops and really old- i wonder if they made glass jars differently in the days before freezing was commonplace? any experience with that?

when we make chicken stock, we split it up and freeze the breasts, thighs, etc and put the carcass with a good amount of meat on it in the stockpot. works best for us, economically.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Hi all, I have a question for you guys. I like to save my weekly veggie trimmings, water from steamed vegs, chicken bones, etc for my weekly stock making, my question is... how do you all keep this kind of stuff, fridge or freezer? I keep it in the fridge in my stock pot but it takes up a lot of space. Does anyone do it differently? Right now I am going to make the whey and cream cheese out of buttermilk from NT, so I can have whey to start doing some lacto-fermented veggies know that my garden is starting to produce. Hi Lou! Too bad about the jars. About kefir, you use special kefir "grains" to make it, I think another person on this thread makes it.


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

I freeze everything in a plastic bag, labeled and dated with a sharpie and I try to use it within the next 10 days to two weeks so it doesn't get freezer burn.

Question: how do you make butter/buttermilk? Do you need raw cream or will pasturized work? The organic cream and milk I've found is "ultrapasteurized" and I haven't found a local source yet for at least raw cream (although I know they are there).


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Regarding chicken broth: I use 3-4 chicken backs that I get from the co-op. They're cheap, freerange and sometimes from organic fed chickens. It's like 69 cents a pound. I boil them for a couple of hours and it makes a very fatty thick gelatin broth. I make all ds food with the broth (he's allergic to everything) since I started doing this his appetite has increased a lot and he is normally the type that won't eat a thing. It seems to me the fattier the broth, the more he will eat of whatever I use it in (soups, rice, etc).

Regarding the sauerkraut: I tried unsuccessfully to make it one time (I didn't have anything to properly pound it down with) but one head of cabbage doesn't make very much. ANother note: at my co-op they sell naturally fermented sauerkraut and it is not very acidic at all. Not like the stuff in the cans we ate as kids (for whoever was concerned about the acidity)

Also, at my co-op (can you tell I love this place?) they sell Kombucha and I tried it and it's pretty good. My dh tells me it is like this stuff they sell in Mexico called "tepache". What is Kombucha and how do I make it? Is it in the SF book?

To whoever make the rejuvelac, how did you like it? My mom made this a lot when we were kids and it has a strange light and lovely taste, do you think so?

gotta go my 2 month old is calling....


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

For veggie stocks -- I keep a glass jar in the freezer. I usually use the water from steaming veggies, so it's not too much. I let it cool, and add it to the jar. I haven't had any problems. I don't usually bother doing that now, mostly because if I'm just cooking veggies plain, I now cook them in butter instead of water. Yum!


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Oceanmomma...I too







the Kombucha. Most of the time my brew is also a combo sweet and sour, tending toward the sour though. Right now I brew two batches at a time in these glass sun tea jars I got at the grocery store for about $6.00 each That lasts about 2 weeks for me and ds, since dh doesn't drink it. I think I'm going to get two more of them strictly for storage in the fridge as they have the spigot on them...Kombucha on tap!

I had my mother over today for Mother's Day and made an NT meal...everyone loved it! It was wonderful to make something so healthy and have everyone love it some much: zuchinni cakes, carrot salad, and brocolli with cheese sauce. Dessert wasn't NT though...strawberry shortcake. I made butter on accident though! Was whipping cream and I didn't think about it not being "whipping" cream....so now I have some homemade butter in the fridge. I may just start doing this on a regular basis now that I see how easy it is.

--April


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

hmm, I've never tried freezing in glass jars- I was always afraid of cracking too...

Suseyblue, I think you listed the books in the NT recipes thread on the food/nutrition board- I was scanning it last night- I'm going to buy those books. Wild blueberries - yum. I'm going to try it.

Wow, I think it's time to go ahead and buy the NT book- all the different histories of the food origins on their website are really fascinating.

well, I've got a sick mom and babe here... better go for now. Next week, I start stock!


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds*
To whoever make the rejuvelac, how did you like it? My mom made this a lot when we were kids and it has a strange light and lovely taste, do you think so?

i think you described the taste very well. it's almost lemonadey and so easy to make.


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

was wondering if there was a nourishing traditions website i could look at to get more info?
thanks ladies-


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

just wanted to post, that two toddlers with a potato masher and a large bowl can do a fine job of pounding kraut...
suse


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

Carrie Lou,

I learned most of my info at www.westonaprice.org .


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

my beer is purple!!! gonna rack tomorrow. better start drinking; i hope i have enough bottles in a week to start loadin' 'em up, wild blueberry ale sounds so refreshing for summer, don't you think?

i am just so nonplussed when i open it up and it smells and tastes like BEER. amazing. wow, you really don't need hygrometers and gypsum and isinglass and wort chillers etc to make beer- easy peasy!

so purple!!!! 'barney beer', lol.

suse


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

LOL, suse......enjoy your barney beer! So, where did you get your wild blueberries??? Did you just use frozen ones? Rebekah....I miss you!!! Where have you been hiding yourself lately??

Still waiting for my Carl's sourdough starter........anyone else waiting too? We're also trying to figure out something to do on a cloudy Sunday here in Tacoma.

tah tah for now...

Lisa


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## lovebugmama (May 23, 2003)

Brisen, what recipe did you use for the bread that turned out so yummy? I'm going to bake my first ever loaf of bread and I don't want to be disappointed. I have NT, so if it's a recipe in there just point me to the right one.

Thanks!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

It was the yeasted buttermilk bread. But I used yogurt instead of buttermilk the first time, and I've also subbed water + 1 Tbsp whey per cup of water for the buttermilk too.

I find, though, that despite how nice the dough feels, it hasn't really been rising well for me, and the bread is moist, but falls apart easily. I'm still experimenting. I'm wondering if I need to let it rise more, I'm so impatient with that part. I want fresh bread _now_!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

yeah, they were on sale at kroger's... yeah, i know, big business, but i'm just glad they are carrying a wider variety of fruit than they used to. no way to grow 'em here anyway.

suse


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OceanMomma*
Elainie. I remember you saying that your children's bone structure was different since you stopped being vegan. Do you think, if you change their diet early enuf, you can correct their jaw & teeth development? How much of it is hiereditory ? The reason I ask is dd#2 has quite a small jaw & her teeth look like they are going to be very crowded when she gets bigger. She's been drinking raw milk & eating lots of raw butter & fish oil since about November & I am sure her teeth are spacing out & straightening a bit. She is only just 3 so it may not be that at all. She was vegan until she was nearly 2.

(bumping this up so Elainie will see it!)

I don't want to answer for Elainie, but I asked her a similar question a while back, and from what I understand when the body is in a growth phase it will do its best to achieve full potential if all nutrients are available. Jaw size and crowded teeth are not hereditary, they are developmental.

Sorry I've been so quiet lately, I just got back from a 2 week trip and am just getting back into the swing of things!

Kefir is super easy to make, you can find grains here:
http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/kefir/kefirlist.php
or I've heard you can post to the kefir list as well:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Kefir_making/

just dump the grains in milk and let it sit until to your liking.
I still can't get used to the taste though! Maybe I have a bad batch of grains?


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lou*
a
those jars were from thrift shops and really old- i wonder if they made glass jars differently in the days before freezing was commonplace? any experience with that?

Glass is a liquid. Over time it will weaken in spots as it runs. That's why really old windows tend to be thicker at the bottom than the top, btw.

Of course, my new glass jars have broken all over the freezer, too. Sigh. Maybe we should develop a new product line -- some sort of nonplastic freezer container.

Anyway, great thread/great tribe. I just found it. I love lacto-fermenting, but have nothing currently fermenting due to general craziness here. Reading this, though, I'll probably start something tomorrow. I give my parents stuff like sauerkraut and corn relish for Christmas.

Does anyone sprout grains, dry them, then grind for flour? I tried it once, but my little handgrinder couldn't cope.

Oh, btw, 8yo dd was just fitted with a palate-expander (I think the women in our family have a problem metabolizing calcium, but that's another story). I wanted to ask the ortho if diet could help the problem, but figured he would just think I was nuts. I've been giving the kids cod liver oil over the winter (blithely ignoring the threads about the dire threat this poses to their health due to toxins). I'm wondering about giving it in the summer, though, since they get lots of sun -- would it overload them with vit.D?


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## yoga (May 1, 2002)

Some people don't give their kids as much in the summer b/c of that. Some people don't give their kids any in the summer b/c of that.

Maybe you should just cut down on the amount if you're using butteroil.


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

What is the use for flax seed oil? Is it just for use in cold foods and condiments or can it be taken internally like clo? I've only been using it in dressings and the like.


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Dh takes flaxseed oil by the spoonful for the EFAs. He has an entire book on the subject of flaxseed oil somewhere around here.

I've heard that it's better to grind up the flaxseed and eat it, though, since the oil is fresher that way. FWIW, I dump the ground flaxseed on oatmeal, etc. I also put it on granola to assuage my guilt over eating improperly prepared grains







.


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

Ground flax seed in granola. Now that's a concept for me. Thanks for the idea--I've recently started making my own granola (changing the recipe to more healthful as I can) and I'm glad for the oats but this will make it better. AND it will get some flax seed into dh. What a bargain!







Thanks!


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

Ocean- I don't think that by simply changing ones diet affects what I see as a constitutional aspect. With my own daughters (who are now 13) they did require braces even after years of dietary change. The children born after
the change have different constitutions. My 8 year old son has a very wide palate and his adult teeth are growing in perfectly.
My two younger children are too small (4 and almost 5 months) but their palate is wider loooking and my four year old has space in between her baby teeth.
One thing that did occur when I changed my older dd's diet was the decay that had occurred (they were vegan until age 3 1/2 even though I was not vegan the whole time I was nursing them as I ate fish once a month or so).


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

now, where on earth can i find non-ultra pasteurized cream? (my local farm has been sold out of raw cream & butter for months.) even wild oats is just ultra-pasteurized, & every serious MAINSTREAM cookbook calls for skipping the ultra as a bad product! what gives? this has been driving me crazy for years.

suse


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

If you find any please post the source. It all seems to be "ultra".


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Natural by Nature brand has non-ultrapastuerized. I think it's just low heat pastuerized. They have a website http://www.natural-by-nature.com/

I've been trying to get it through my co-op. There is a "stores" icon to click on the left hand margin, which is a store locator for stores that sell their products. Good luck!

April


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

If you're willing to pay shipping, you can mail order from:
http://www.organicpastures.com/

Raw, organic, pasture-fed dairy products! I got their butter and it's tasty.


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Hi everyone. I just found out that I'm pregnant!







We were planning on "trying" end of this year, but someone else had other plans









So I'm wanting to add roe to my diet as I recall in NT it is supposed to be super healthy for child bearing years, pregnancy, birth, etc. Do any of you eat roe at all? Also, how does the issue of mercury contamination relate to roe?


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello,

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Worldshakerz*
Hi everyone. I just found out that I'm pregnant!







We were planning on "trying" end of this year, but someone else had other plans









Congratulations! What a very lucky baby to have a mom following such a super-nutritious diet.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Worldshakerz*
So I'm wanting to add roe to my diet as I recall in NT it is supposed to be super healthy for child bearing years, pregnancy, birth, etc. Do any of you eat roe at all? Also, how does the issue of mercury contamination relate to roe?

I have eaten salmon roe before. I just bought whole salmon and used the roe we found inside. Of course, we eat it raw, but I think there are recipes in NT for cooking it. We put it raw in smoothies. It tastes just like egg yolks to me. I guess as far as mercury goes, you have to get the roe from a fish that is lower in mercury, like salmon. Anyway, hope that helps.


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Thanks RAF. I was thinking salmon would be the way to go. That's a good idea too for putting in smoothies. I usually have the NT banana yogurt smoothie and I can just add it in there. Where do you get the whole salmon?


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Cograts WorldShakerz! I'd never even dare taste roe as I would expect it to be too fishy so I am very interested to hear how you find it in your smoothie.

I was actually coming back to ask what you mamas do about dairy or, to be more precise, do if you don't have any. The farm I get my raw milk from is drying their herd off for their 2 month break at the end of the month so I am facing 2 months without any raw dairy. Since I was vegan for years before raw milk & the baby was not good with me eating soy. Not to mention my toddler who drinks bulk milk & cream. She has always been drawn to eating lots of fat. I am getting a bit worried as I have no real experience here. I'm not keen on the idea of pasturised milk - even if it is organic. I've found a limited supply of cultured, organic, pasturised butter so that will have to do there. Any ideas on what we can do to keep us going until we get the milk back. It is the dead of winter here so water is not really a feasible option for drinks.


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello,

I have some experience being dairy, soy and rice free, so if there were no raw dairy around, I would use nut milks and coconut milk. Scott and I used to make coconut milk icecream that was really good. Also, almond milk is really good and easy to make if you have a blender and a strainer. Also, if you don't want to use pasteurized butter, coconut oil/butter or palm oil is a really good option. You need to get a good brand of coconut oil or palm oil, rather than the deodorized, heated stuff you usually find in health food stores. Also if you want to use pasteurized butter, Kerry Gold is good. It is from Ireland from cows on pasture. Anyway, if you are interested in any coconut milk/cream recipes or sources for good coconut products, let me know.

Also, for Worldshakerz, I used to be able to get whole salmon from a local indian reservation, but we moved, and I don't know where to get them from now.







It was only like 25 dollars for a huge, wild salmon too.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "traditional foods"? I've read through some (but admittedly not all) of the posts here and I'm just not getting it







Some help please?


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Foods that have stood the test of time for supporting healthful populations.

Foods that don't involve modern processing techniques.

See Weston A. Price Foundation for more info.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

Thanks, I did some reading and it looks interesting, but expensive. We've just taken our children, ages 4 and 6 off of soy milk because of some of the new info about soy. We had chosen soy as an alternative to dairy because we can't afford organic milk. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for raw milk. I didn't even think it was legal to sell it. A question before I look further into this---is this 'non-profit' selling anything? I only ask because some of the website felt a little gimmicky. Please don't be offended, I'm really open to new ideas about food, especially now that I'm questioning our reliance on soy as a replacement for milk and most meat. I guess part of what made me uncomfy was that some of the meal plans looked a bit like Atkins. Who cooks one egg in 4 Tablespoons of butter?







If this is the wrong place for a beginner to ask questions, can someone please direct me to a better thread? I just don't want you all to feel under attack at you tribal thread, which is all about support









Much thanks,


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello Brandywine,

I actually cook eggs in about that much butter.







I am also not and have never been on atkins.







I think the book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price is exactly what this forum is about. The Weston Price Foundation is all about disseminating information on his research. The website does not appeal to everyone, but the book is timeless and definitely not gimmicky in the least. Also, about raw milk, where in the pac NW do you live? I am in the Tri-cities area of WA state, sort of the south eastern corner of the state. I know there are places to get raw milk in the pac NW. Oh and also, I almost forgot, the book Nourishing Traditions by Fallon and Enig is the cookbook/nutrition book that this thread is also based on. That is what the 'NT' stands for. Okay, I need to go get some stuff done before it gets dark.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

I'm in Salem, OR, but I go to the Tri-cities, Pendleton, Walla Walla area a few times a year. It's funny that here smack in the middle of the valley I have fewer choices for healtfood stores in my city than the area you live in. Salem has a whopping ONE healthfood store-a tiny thing in a stripmall. I've heard that the southeast WA, Northeast OR area has a better selection because there is a large Seventh Day Adventist population there, but I could be wrong. If you know of a place I can get good dairy here in the valley, please let me know.

Quote:

I actually cook eggs in about that much butter.
Really? Four tablespoons for one egg? Yuuuuum. I love butter. It's so spendy right now that I have a hard time justifying using that much for anything, but I would if I could. Do people get fat eating this way? I'm already fat, so I'm not too concerned for myself, but curious how it goes for you all. I'm wondering what it takes to raise a dairy cow. I have about 1.75 acres of available 'pasture' but honestly know nothing about cattle. I'll check out the book. Thanks for putting up with my questions. I'll try to read some more and be informed a bit (and maybe try some recipes!) before I post here again. Keep posting, I'm interested!


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## Lou (Mar 5, 2004)

Brandywine-
I live a hour south of you, and i get organic, unhomogenized, lightly pasteurized milk, butter, cream, etc from Noris Milk. Their farm is somewhere near Salem and they also run a Noris Cafe or something- look at your local phone book. They deliver to some health food stores and do home deliveries from Portland to Eugene. I love their products- rich cream on top, yummy!
Have you thought about goats? You'd need less pastureland for two dairy goats, which would fill your dairy needs.


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## Etoile (May 8, 2002)

Hi everybody, new to this thread but have had the NT book for a while and definitely agree with a lot of it, but only recently really _trying_ to eat really healthy.

I have a question: Does anyone have experience with making any of the sourdough recipes in NT in a breadmaker? We have a brand new bread maker we got as a wedding gift that I would hate to go to waste! I have had great success with making whole grain breads in it but not sure how I would do the sourdough.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I've not made any of the sourdough recipes in NT but I have made sour dough in my bread maker. What I do is leave the sponge out to rise. Then I run the bread thru the dough cycle. If I'm feeling organised I leave it to sit for a while. Or if I am rushed, I then run it thru the regular wholewheat bread cycle. Always turns out OK


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

I feel so lucky- I can get the Organic Pastures raw milk at the store about 3 miles away. I'm kind of scared to make the switch from organic unhomogenized milk to raw.

Everyone always tries to scare people with the bacteria-in-raw-milk threat.
Maybe I should start with butter or cheese first... Anyone been using raw dairy for a while and never get sick?









thanks!

I'm going to listen to their radio interviews on the Organic Pastures website. Toraji, thanks for posting the link.


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## vegmom (Jul 23, 2003)

dh's family are organic dairy farmers dh has had raw dairy all his life. He has never gotten sick. They eat butter, buttermilk, milk, cream all raw. They use a disinfectant on the teats bf they milk. They also have their bacteria levels tested on a regular basis and they are always normal.

I am pregnant and drink raw milk and eat raw butter. I only drink it when it is fresh (3-4 days) I did have an upset tummy after i ate some raw butter that was sitting out for a while and I had also drank some milk that was about a week old. That gave me a scare since it occured during my pregnancy. But I still drink the fresh stuff.

You can also drink raw milk after it has soured. It actually increases the nutritional value if the milk is soured. Pasturized milk does not do this because it is dead and rots. Raw milk sours bc of the lactic acid in it. The lactic acid in raw milk destroys any putrefying bacteria. The souring promotes the growth of healthy flora in the intestine. The healthy flora will keep the bad flora away. That is the amazing thing.

My dd got infected with cryptosporiduim bacteria over the winter. We fought this parasite with probiotics/yogurt/kefir, and succeeded. A good healthy gut will keep salmonella, listeria, cryptosporidium etc. from making you sick.

Don't be scared of raw milk. It is much healthier for you than the pasturized alternative.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brookesmom*
I'm kind of scared to make the switch from organic unhomogenized milk to raw.

I made the jump from homogenized organic to raw and have had no problems. Neither have dh and dd. I think it tastes soooo yummy!


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I hadn't drunk milk for years when I started on the raw milk. I didn't deliberately seek out raw milk either. Just, it was the most animal friendly alternative to soy I could find - leave Mums & babies together, don't truck animals to the meat works, they even get a 2 month rest every year. Neither me or dh or dd has been sick ever. I did get some milk for a guy I know to try who says he may have felt a bit sick, but then we had some form of gastric flu around at the time as I knew 5 ppl who'd been feeling sick & vomiting & not one of them had been to my house for a cuppa. So I think it was a case of him putting 2 & 2 together to make 400.

ITA vegmom. The lady I get my milk from had hers tested for bacteria & the levels were lower than store milk. She says that by nature, milk is an anti-bacterial product. So what happens when you pasteurise is you get a sterile, dead environment for all the bacteria to move on in.

The only problem I have found with raw dairy is that you are then unable to drink the pasteurised stuff without it tasting horrid. Butter is the same. dd will not eat store butter - even organic - as she doesn't like it. I had big dd, who used to complain bitterly about me not getting store milk actually acuse me of putting baby pee in her tea when I put some store milk in there once.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OceanMomma*
She says that by nature, milk is an anti-bacterial product. So what happens when you pasteurise is you get a sterile, dead environment for all the bacteria to move on in.

This makes so much sense!








That's why we're told to put our own breast milk on cracked nipples or even other skin conditions!


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

vegmom, yitlan, Oceanmamma, thanks for the replies! I'm going to try some raw milk next time the half gallon is out.

I too think milk tastes nasty- maybe I will like the taste of the raw- that would be a first! I hope my HFS sells the raw butter. It sounds great.

It does make a lot of sense about the raw milk being antibacterial, just like momma milk.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

OK, I'm back now, having read several online articles, all of this thread and an old thread in the food forum. I'm hooked! Mostly because I'm looking for an excuse to eat butter and bone soup, two of my favorite things on earth. Baby steps though, right? Ok, so I started some sourdough starter this morning, andI'm a pretty accomplished baker (apple polisher too!) and I've made bread with a chef before, so I figured I'd start there. Also, we live on a horse and cattle ranch (we rent) and I talked to the owner about buying one of him grassfed organic cows for meat. Spendy but good. Where did you all start? What were your first 'baby steps'?


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

I started with changing my grocery shopping from typical to organic and making bone broths each week--chicken one week, beef the next (has anyone made fish broth?)--so I could keep soup in the house. Then I kept renewing a copy of _Nourishing Traditions_ from the library until I could by my own copy. $25 was kind of steep to me so I took a while to look around for a copy under $15 (plus shipping). NT has a good chapter in it about what to do if you are cost conscious but it works as well for those of us just getting started.

I love it because it just verified what I was seeing IRL. My grandfather is 88 this year and he eats 2 eggs and bacon every morning and uses real butter and milk. His wife of 10 years is barely 10 years older than me (and very happy







) and he still runs his own catering service out of his home with all the labor--physical and mental-- that entails. He also doesn't look like he's nearly 90 either. My dad (70) however is a bit of a mess physically as he loves to tell me about and his wife keeps feeding him all this low carb low calorie processed crap and he wonders why he feels poorly.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

My baby steps:
raw dairy and yogurt
the crispy nuts
cereal grains (haven't been able to abandon boxed cereals totally yet)
the fermented catsup and apricot butter
soaked beans (I usually soaked them overnight anyway to cut down on cooking time. Now I just add whey)
more meat in our diet

I think you're right: baby steps are the way to go. It would take a major life overhaul to adopt EVERYTHING in the book at once!


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
I seem to have gotten the award for "most annoying ex-veg"

As a former scared vegan in denial a couple years ago, I totally ignored the stories that people like elainie told about problems with the vegan diet. After all, I was one of the "good" ones, right? Ha ha, I'll show them! But in the end, I had to swallow my pride and change my diet. I will not make my child suffer because of dogma.

Oh, how I hear you. I'm an "ex" as well after 10 years no meat. I started craving it when we were TTC, and "coincedentally" my thyroid levels had tripled! I ate a ton of soy products, and I'm so glad I no longer do. I'm new to WAP, and am trying to go organic as much as possible. DH isn't as keen on it as I am, but he's enjoying the fresh food!


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## Elzabet (Apr 23, 2003)

Does anyone else graze? I like NT because it has the recipies for good grazing material like the crispy nuts yitlan mentioned. I have to eat almost constantly it seems like due to a high metabolism. Extra protein and fats help but when I forget to add them properly, I need to munch constantly.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I started with raw dairy instead of soy milk. Then I did things like got raw butter, raw clotted cream & raw yoghurt as I had access to them & they were all organic, locally produced etc. I also borrowed a copy of NT by the lady I get my milk from.

I soak our oatmeal in whey every night. No big drama, I make kefir & always let some separate into whey so I use that. Just bung it on to soak when I wash the dishes after dinner.

I buy dh & dd a organic free range chook once a week which I roast. I make chicken stock from the carcass.

When the farm I get my milk off home kills one of th cows, I get about 25lb of mixed meat - everything from steak to mince. I look up recipes for it in NT or convert back my vege recipes ie sub beef for beans in stews etc.

We don't eat bakers yeast so I make a loaf of spelt sourdough once a week & a sourdough pizza half way thru the week to keep my sourdough going.

I have found since I have effectively upped my animal fat consumption, I have lost weight. Well 5kgs in fact. Granted most was pregnancy weight but you would expect it not to come off if all that fat made you fat! I also do not feel the cold as much.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

lol ocean, at the baby pee!
i have to be honest; the raw milk i got locally did not taste good to me, like the old 'certified' alta dena milk i got. i don't think it's just being hung up on the 'cerified', thing, it just tasted cleaner or something (and i've yet to get raw butter or cream, they're always out!) i'm all for local production, i'm just wishing the joint had a passel of amish kids there boiling the place; i really like the (non-raw, unfortunately) amish and mennonite dairy i've gotten at my local veggie mkt from a bit up north... is it that it was frozen? (i didn't specifically request that it not be, but i wish i'd known it was before i had bought 3 gallons. i got a little burned out on the stuff and tried to use it all in cheese.) is it just me?

god, i miss alta-dena dairy. i wish my state would not be so neanderthal we had to buy 'pet food' milk to make it even legal to sell.

suse


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

bumpers

not much action here, lately (i am spending more time in the garden, too.) but had a blast bottling beer; it was fun!

do y'all feel like we lost steam when we had to start a new thread because of length? i saw a lot of other tribal threads that looked like they just didn't bother- now i feel picked on  did veggies and pagans get told to start over too, or was it just us? i feel a victim of political correctness.

i'm waiting for peggy's recipe o' the month to be a big ol' slab of pasture-raised meat.

my local farm finally has caught up with dairy orders so i may have a chance to get some raw butter! (and they've got lamb & goat innards too.) gotta work my way out there soon.

i saw kishk in a jar (and a dried version) at the arabic mkt! i am inspired to make some; i have bulghar & some goat kefir whey. wish me luck (and i really need to bottle my mead, but dh is working 7 days this week & it is really a two person job.)

suse


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
bumpers

do y'all feel like we lost steam when we had to start a new thread because of length? i saw a lot of other tribal threads that looked like they just didn't bother- now i feel picked on  did veggies and pagans get told to start over too, or was it just us? i feel a victim of political correctness.


Naw, I'm in another tribe that started over too, so it isn't just this one. I know I'm spending a lot of time in the garden lately, so a lot less time on the computer. As a matter of fact, 4yo dd just asked me to go outside with her and hang upsidedown on the trapeze. Gotta go.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Well, I'm guilty of ignoring the post, too. There's just so much to do as a mommy!







I'm going to try to get NT soon & start making goodies. My DH was really excited about the possiblity of homemade ginger beer. Is it alcoholic or non, like the store brands? We're both nondrinkers, so that's kinda important. :LOL Btw, we got some fresh, sustainably grown beef yesterday, and oh man was it good!


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Hi! I'm new to MDC, but I've been eating "new traditional" style, more or less, for the last two years or so.

My DD is 5 months old. She's kind of a WAP poster child: happy, strong, tall, and bright-eyed.







BF has been going wonderfully. (I did stock up on the obscure formula ingredients, just in case I got hit by a bus or something. Anyone want 2 lb. of lactose powder?







) Now I'm wondering what to do about introducing solids.

In the last few weeks, Moobles has started showing "signs of readiness." When I hold her on my lap during meals, she grabs at my fork, while gaping her mouth open like a baby bird. I've tried offering her tiny dabs of some of the things on my plate: mashed egg yolk, beef, and fruit. She didn't want the egg at all, which surprised me, since NT recommends it as a first food. She mouthed the beef and fruit with great interest...then spat them out. Well, more like _drooled_ them out, actually.

I get the feeling that she's enjoying the whole experience. She just hasn't figured out the concept of swallowing. Do I take this as a sign that she's not ready yet, and back off for a few weeks? Or do I keep on offering things to her?


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Sounds like my daughter. She's probably having fun just learning the textures and tastes right now. I would continue to give stuff, as long as you're not introducing more than 1 food every few days. Breastmilk will be her primary food for some time yet, but they love to play with food! Oh, and have you tried avocado or sweet potato? Those tend to go over well.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

This quite interesting. I was about to sneak on in & see if we could discuss the baby food section of NT.

I personally find it very scarey but then that might be from my years & years of veganism & their literature. I've always gone the teeth route with solids. ie top & bottom teeth = fruit & veg, eye teeth = proteins & molars = grains. So we are still on only veg & fruit.

I looked at the WAP web site & their kids section was a bit - I dunno - from memory one baby there was so healthy it apparently slept thru the night from day 1. Another was trying to crawl at 2 weeks. Boy must I have been malnutrited when pg then as neither of my little ones sleep thru the night yet!! But do have to say littlest dd is definitely a poster child for something. Very plump & glowing & bright. I get constantly accosted by old dears telling me how bonnie she is.

I tried the ginger beer recipe in NT & I ended up somehow with something that was like ginger flavoured runny jelly. dd was very disappointed. I have a very old family recipe for ginger beer that is awesome but uses dried yeast so we can't make it anymore







I know a lady with some water kefir grains she makes soda from. She also told me she puts ginger in kombucha for "ginger beer"


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Suse, let me know how your kishk turns out. Has anyone else made it? I've actually tried it twice, but haven't been happy with it. Well, actually it makes delicious soup when it's cooked in broth, but I couldn't see how she said it could be eaten as cold cereal. It turned out way to hard and crunchy for eating like cereal! Maybe my oven was to warm or something? I don't know, but I wish I could find something to work for cold cereal!
For baby food I like doing avacado, bananas and egg yolks, they all just seem like natural baby foods to me!


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Hi Annie! (and others







) Hmmmm....baby foods.....I really don't think there's an exact science to this; I mean, in different regions, people/babes ate different things and still were extraordinarily healthy. My kids never had commercial baby food...vile vile stuff! Come to think of it, I don't remember what Esme's first foods were.......but Indy's was applesauce (not given by me...not my first choice). Both my kiddo's loved sweet potatoes and got lots of good butter fat in them. My babies really wanted to participate in mealtimes by eating off of our plate and we just gave them teeny tastes of what was on our plate (provided it wasn't terribly hard to digest). Even while exclusively breastfed, they seemed to enjoy being held in the sling during mealtime and just studying the food intently. I don't know how many times I dropped food on their heads while eating! LOL

It irks me how complicated some people make this stuff!! Mainly, drs./baby food manufacturers/WIC staff (don't get me started....!!!)

(Annie....we're "tentatively" going to be back in Tri-Cities for awhile at the end of the month!)

Lisa


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i'm using the 'wild fermentation' book for my kishk (& hopefully ginger beer; only mildly fermented, btw, daniele... fine imho if you are just not drinkers, but maybe up there with mouthwash & vanilla extract if you NEED to avoid alcohol- muslim, recovering alkies etc.)

i'm finding i like nt for the research & info & sandor katz's book for the huge pile of experience making actual recipes; i've had too many inedibles from nt to make the recipes without a grain of salt (instead of two tablespoons, lol.)

btw, can't you make cream stout with the lactose? or is it just lactic acid? (you could just use it in recipes, i suppose, as a sugar replacement... btw, why is it not affected by oxidation, like the dry milk, eggs, whey, etc?)

suse


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## Queen Gwen (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
i'm finding i like nt for the research & info & sandor katz's book for the huge pile of experience making actual recipes; i've had too many inedibles from nt to make the recipes without a grain of salt (instead of two tablespoons, lol.)


Thanks for the info on Wild Fermentation. It's on my wishlist for book purchases. I've had some duds from NT also, so it sounds like it would be a good thing to get.

I read somewhere that for the 1st year babies act like they want to eat simply because they see everyone else sticking food in their mouths and want to give it a try. So if they don't swallow it's no big deal -- they're just experimenting.


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

Hello all. Please be patient with me as I still haven't gotten my hands on a copy of NT or any other related books (the library copy is reserved till Christmas or so). I was looking at directions and a recipe on the WAP site for homebrewed soda. I've bottled root beer before, using commercial champagne yeast, so I though I'd give it a try. The recipe for the starter consists of ginger, water and sugar. I got mine started a week ago and it seems ok, but just mildly bubbly, and I'm not sure if it's right or not because the instructions don't give a thourough description. Anyhow, I thought I'd do some ginger soda, which dh loves. What I'm wondering is, is the ginger starter used for other sodas too, like sassparilla? It's the only recipe I can find on the site and it seems like using that starter will impart a strong ginger flavor into whatever you use it in. Are there other starters? Should my starter be really bubbly before I make the soda?


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Hello mamas.

As I explained here we are trying to redirect many of the tribe threads that have been placed here for purposes of discussion that belong on the existing forums for that topic. So I am moving this thread to Good Eating and asking that no new threads be started that are for the purpose of discussing topics that are normally hosted on existing forums.

Please bear with us as we try to work through this.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

<g> do the dready mamas have to go hang out in 'natural home & body care?









btw, we have a recipe thread in here somewhere; is it possible to tack them together? (if it's too much hassle one of us can dredge it up & quote it as a post, or is that the best way to combine them? my brain is mucky from baby-waking all night.)

ideas?

suse


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

OK folks, I'm on board. We just finished a move that took an eternity. Our diets went to hell in a handbasket. We're still living around boxes, but our diet has made it up to the top of the list. We've followed some general principles through the move, but ate out a lot and, thereby, probably cancelled out a good bit of what we did. Now we're living in a pretty isolated place with very few eating-out possibilities. There is a cowboy restaurant down the road that sells a burger on one of those wonder bread buns. That's just not appealing.

So here's what we've got going on:
--The garden is in and should be producing well in a month. We're in California, so we'll make a few trips to the valley to farmers markets until then.
--I think we've got a source of raw goats milk -- we're meeting with the farmer later this month, so we've got a couple of weeks to get through until we're hooked up. Until then, we use organic pastuerized milk for kefir.
-- I got my mom interested in baking some sourdough bread with spelt. I am looking forward to that.
-- I've got a local rancher interested in converting grazing his cattle year-round.







I found another rancher who probably does graze year-round.







I think I should become a meat broker. LOL
--In the next week or so I'll do some of the simple things like crispy nuts. I've been soaking breakfast cereal -- that's no big deal.
Actually, the biggest change we'll be making is simply cooking our own food. The rest will follow at some point.

I'm glad you're all here. We may have some serious questions once we face cooking again. LOL.

Amanda


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Anyone know anything about fish prep? We aim to eat less meat in the summer







: but I think I should be eating more fish. We do canned tuna once or twice a week, and whitefish once a week, but it's the highliner filets. I want to learn how to make fish broth this summer, and cut back on the canned tuna. I bought some frozen whole fish -- I don't even remember what kind it was, something smallish and kind of blue/grey, lol -- but I wouldn't know what to do with it once I thaw it. I don't have a filleting knife. I've seen my grandpa gut fish a few times, but not enough to actually learn anything about it.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

we just cooked some 'flounder' from china, frozen, yesterday & BLEAH. it turned to mush! (and rather nasty-tasting mush at that.) don't get the chinese flounder!

did you get whiting, brisen? it sounds like it could be, pretty common.

suse


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I was looking up pictures of fish, trying to find something that looked like what I have... I went to the freezer to get them out and compare, and realized the package did have a label after all...







It's rainbow trout. I think one is headless, but two still have their heads.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Shannon,

Do they need to be gutted? Typically trout is sold whole but gutted. I just sautee mine -- I start with a lot of garlic and chopped almonds in olive oil, take out the garlic and almonds to go on the fish after. The trick is deboning the fish when it's on the plate in front of you. I've seen people just cut into fish like it's a steak or something, but that doesn't work too well. This is an easy technique but very hard to describe -- if the fish is on it's side, you can usually lift the top half (side) of the fish carefully away from the top bones. This is tedious, but once you have half of the bones free, you can just pull the whole skeleton out of the fish. HTH

Amanda


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I would like to try bread and had intended on soaking the flour. I had an appt yesterday with my doc and he said that the only way we should have bread is if you sprout the grains, mill them, and then bake. The idea of milling sprouts is very odd to me. How would you possibily end up with anything that looks like flour? TIA


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I started a new thread called "Traditional Foods (NT) Mamas-June Thread" with my response on sprout bread.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Here's the new thread:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=158606


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