# when to start with manners?



## Veronique (Nov 10, 2005)

My son is still quite young to learn about manners etc. but I'd still like some advice on teaching him 'thank-you, good morning," etc.
My SIL seems to always be telling her kids (ages 5 and 9) to say please and thank-you, but they never do!
They come to my house, don't greet me, open the fridge, take a drink of pop from the bottle and sit down on the sofa. They find the remote control, flick on the TV, eat their bag of chips they've brought in and when they're done with their snack, the bag goes on the floor and the hands are wiped on my cushions.







:
Anyways, all the while this is going on, their mom is reminding them: "Say hello to your Aunt Vero....Ask for permission if you want a drink.....put your feet down....saying thank-you....put the bag in the garbage....wash your hands...."
Her kids are not bad kids, but they just don't get how to act in someone's house. It seems as though my SIL is trying to teach them proper manners, but they just simply ignore her.
I really don't want my DS to act like this! How do I instill these values and when do I start?


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

start when they are babies and the secret is really quite simple - treat them as you want them to treat others. When they hand you something, say thank you. When you ask them something, say please. If they are playing and you need to interrupt, say "excuse me, may I interrupt you?"

Also, children will do what is expected of them - meaning when DD was a baby after we played with something we played the clean up game - and now Ihave a 3-1/2 year old who cleans her room without being asked to every night before bed - well, most of the time.

At least it's worked for us! People are constantly complimenting my DD on her good manners.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

First and foremost I think you model the behaviour you want and you start that about the time they can recognize you as "mom". That's what, about 30 seconds out of the womb? Seriously, I think that modeling is the most important thing you can do and you do that from the very beginning.

Beyond that, my nearly 3 YO is good about saying please and such. I don't think I consiously taught this much before about 2. Now I will wait quietly until she asks nicely rather than demanding something, but I don't nag. I quietly coach proper manners when we are visiting someone. And respect for all of God's creation (including people, yourself and your environment) is THE big value in our family and we talk about it constantly.

I suspect your SIL's children ignore her about things other than manners. Sounds like she has one of those parenting styles that I call "all flutter, no substance." At the point that a child of mine was so rude, I would be standing in front of them, turning off the TV and taking away the snacks and drinks until I got their attention. Then we would probably go home.

If you are effective at teaching respect for others, then manners are a snap.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Didn't read all replies, but I think there is no "start" to this. Children always treat others how they have been treated - not how they have been nagged to behave.

It never fails. They have this nifty little survival mechanism that makes them immitate the behavior of adults and older children around them. It sounds like your nieces and nephews are subject to so much nagging and harrassment that they are fully tuned out at this point. I'm very sorry you have to have them ransack your house.

Just consistently treat your child respectfully and there will be no issues.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Just thought of a funny example:

The other day we told DS (almost 2) about Santa Clause and when he retold the story back to us about how Santa will bring him a present he added, "And I'w tell him 'Thank You' for pwesent, Santa! Want tell Santa 'Thank You'."

I've never once told him to say anything. I think it's obnoxious - I don't like anyone telling me what I have to say. I just thank him for things he does that are helpful, kind, or thoughtful.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

we start when they are babies. If they are old enough to talk they are old enuogh to say thank you and please and excuse me. If they can sit up they can sit nicely at teh table. and most importantly we are consistant. I bet your sister doesn't make them act all polite at home and that is why they have no idea how to act when they come to your home. her remiinders are feeble attepts to say "we're working on it" but chances are when they are at someones house it is the only time they are working on it.

So start working on it now and start at home. If you don't wan't your child eating on someones coush with greesy hands start with everyone eating at teh table at your home. they will see you doing it. i t iwil be normal. they will be expected to do it at home. it will be normal. when they go to someones home it won't even be a question. Say thank youto them. remind them to say it. then when it comes up in public it won't be an issue because it will be normal.


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree with the pp's too about modeling. That is SO important (imo) and of course, no one is perfect so your children are not going to behave like angels all the time-- but I feel that if you are consistent in your modeling of the behavior you want to see and very positive when they model it back (not talking praise really, just maybe something like ... "I heard you say thank you when Johnny handed you the ball, I thought that was nice of you" --- or whatever)...it will be something that comes naturally to them in *most* normal situations.

Also, I don't intend to sweat the small stuff in the manners area. I mean, I think intention, wording, and tone of voice go a long way too without me having to hear the "right" words. This was discussed in another thread...for example, sometimes I don't say please to my husband (and vice versa), but rather something like "sweetie, while you are up would you mind getting me some water?" ...my husband knows I am being kind and asking nicely, he doesn't have to hear the "magic" word...

Manners are important in many situations, as to most people it is a sign of respect and the polite thing to do -- and while we plan on modeling the "right" words...it is much more important (to us) that the intention, tone of voice, and kindness is there -- even if they forget the "right" words or decide to say something else in their place to express themselves.


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## Veronique (Nov 10, 2005)

Captain Crunchy- I agree that one doesn't necessarily have to say 'the magic words' if the intent is there../ex.."sweetie, can you pass the salt..."

I just see some of my friends' kids who act really disrespectful towards others...like grabbing my DS's head, when they are told--nicely---to be careful with the baby. I mean, I consider these *good parents* and want to teach my son basic respect of other people's property etc.

Great advice from everyone! Thank-you...

BTW: what does 'crunchy' mean? I've seen it used as 'crunchy' mom...etc.


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## sessy (May 24, 2005)

I have to agree that this isn't really something that is taught so much as modelled. My dd is only 20 months, so I don't have much experience with this yet. She does say please and thank you a lot, not always in the right context (sometimes she says thank you when she wants to give me something) but often she's right on. Coincidentally, as I type this, she dropped her book and said "Mommy get it please" and then "thank you" after I handed it back to her! She also says excuse me when she wants to get past someone, says it to the dog and cats too! We've never told her to say thank you or please, she's just picked it up as it is part of the way we speak to and treat each other. I hope that by simply being respectful and polite to her and to each other and the people we interact with every day, she will understand that this is how to treat others and it will carry into childhood.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think modeling is the best way to do this and making it fun, not a chore and definitely not a power battle. If you make it a power battle then the child wins because you can devise whatever punishment you want but if they don't use the manners they still win. From what I have read though even the mainstream magazines don't expect kids to begin using their manners until they are closer to 5 and I have never read something that talks about when they should have near perfect manners. Maybe instead of badgering the kids to not do things asking them to do something like get a napkin to wipe their hands with or taking their shoes off so their feet can go wherever would be a better solution. It may be that they have great manners at friends houses but consider you to be family and think they should be able to feel at home in your house.


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## DanAbimytwomiracle (Nov 29, 2004)

Modelign is the key. I also found that when you expect your kids to respect you that they will respect others. And obviously treating them with respect in terms of saying please, thank you, and not grabbing things out of their hands unless they're dangerous.
I interrupt my kids as needed, but nicely - I'll wait until they finish singing, or say ""scuse me, darlin', but mama needs to vaccuum the floor."


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Start when they are babies. And it is not going to cause harm, when they are older and "forget" as children sometimes do, to nicely remind them. Nicely "reminding" is not the same as constantly "nagging".


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

And it is not going to cause harm, when they are older and "forget" as children sometimes do, to nicely remind them. Nicely "reminding" is not the same as constantly "nagging".
I disagree. Calling attention to a child's lapse is calling attention to a child's lapse. I think it's rude no matter how nicely worded. Just b/c it's subtle doesn't mean that the child won't feel embarrased. And embarrassing a child over not wording something how you want is manipulation.

Just let it go if they "forget". If you keep modelling, in time they will say things politely of their own volition.

Just as I was typing this, my not-even-2yo-yet DS walked up to me and asked, "Please, help me find Thomas." I've never coerced or manipulated "polite" words out of him even once. I know it works.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

One thing that helps us was that we do sign language. When we teach the word for food, it is followed by the sign for please. When babies are in the phase where they want to hand everything to you, we sign and say "Thank you." I think the visual helps reinforce.

That said, I think the fact that you recognize that this is something that you want for your kids indicates that it won't be a problem.


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Didn't read all replies, but I think there is no "start" to this. Children always treat others how they have been treated - not how they have been nagged to behave.

It never fails. They have this nifty little survival mechanism that makes them immitate the behavior of adults and older children around them. It sounds like your nieces and nephews are subject to so much nagging and harrassment that they are fully tuned out at this point. I'm very sorry you have to have them ransack your house.

Just consistently treat your child respectfully and there will be no issues.

I just want you to know that this is not always true.
We have modeled gratefulness/good manners and our boys still have to be reminded.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I agree that manners are the sort of thing that are modelled, not nagged or coerced. My 2 yo has pretty good manners, but that's the sort of thing that's modelled in our home. DH and I thank whoever made dinner that night quite sincerely and now I see DD doing it as well. She uses the same words as us, too. "tank you, I 'preciate that."

If my 2 yo forgets to say Thank you, I do the same with her as I would with my husband. I either say if for her, on behalf of our family or I quietly remind her when we have a private moment.

We are now at that age where she walks up to us and starts talking or asking questions without saying excuse. I vividly remember my parents admonishing me "Don't interrupt" when I did that. Sometimes that still erupts from my mouth, but I see now that *I* need to say excuse me to her when she is playing or talking with her friends instead of barging in with "It's time to go..." Children are such good teachers.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OneCatholicMommy*
I just want you to know that this is not always true.
We have modeled gratefulness/good manners and our boys still have to be reminded.

IMO the idea of "have to" is a value judgement on your part.

So what if they don't say "please" everytime? Are they in danger? The only reason you "have to" remind them is that you are trying to force compliance.

Letting those "slips" go without "reminders" but with continued modelling will result in children who _genuinely_ respect people and want to communicate that by speaking politely. Because they genuinely feel respected too, it's a language they will understand fundamentally.


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
IMO the idea of "have to" is a value judgement on your part.

So what if they don't say "please" everytime? Are they in danger? The only reason you "have to" remind them is that you are trying to force compliance.

Letting those "slips" go without "reminders" but with continued modelling will result in children who _genuinely_ respect people and want to communicate that by speaking politely. Because they genuinely feel respected too, it's a language they will understand fundamentally.

Yer darn right it's a value judgment! Sometimes we have to be polite when we don't feel like it. Gentle reminders can work wonders.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, good luck to ya. The irony is that you cannot show politeness if you are embarrassing the child (putting him on the spot) - even if it's in a "nice" voice. So you can't have it both ways. You either model or you coerce.

I just won't be doing that to _my_ kids.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
start when they are babies and the secret is really quite simple - treat them as you want them to treat others. When they hand you something, say thank you. When you ask them something, say please. If they are playing and you need to interrupt, say "excuse me, may I interrupt you?"









:


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i didn't read any of the replies, so i'm probably repeating everybody else







but i have never once in Rowan's life asked him to say please, thank you, you're welcome, or sorry. never once. but he says all of them every single time it's appropriate. it is ALL modeling in our case. please was the longest one to get, mostly because i'm the worst at saying that to DH. i never remember to. LOL i always said it to DS, but never DH and i think DS picked up on that. but now, at 2y9mo he says please all the time now too.

i really do think that modeling is the BEST way to teach it, because it comes from within them rather than because you're sitting there telling them what to do.

i must say i think i have one of the most well-mannered kids on the planet, and i never have to say a word. but i could be biased.


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, good luck to ya. The irony is that you cannot show politeness if you are embarrassing the child (putting him on the spot) - even if it's in a "nice" voice. So you can't have it both ways. You either model or you coerce.

I just won't be doing that to _my_ kids.

May I ask why you think reminders are embarrassing?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

There is just about nothing that grates my nerves more than having some well-meaning person "Remind" dd to say thank you or please. I usually tell them to leave her alone.....which is probably rude. But it would be incredibly rude for someone to remind ME to say something like that and it would be very embarrassing for me. Why do people think it is any less embarrassing for a child?

My parents never ever made me say anything that did not naturally come out of my mouth. If I was too shy or excited or forgetful to say the polite thing, my mom or dad said it for me. Guess what? I always say please, thank you, you're wecome, etc..... We have never asked my dd to say it either and she also says it naturally from modelling. This is most definately not a "have to" issue.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

You know...we really do say "please" and "thank you" around here a lot, and yet my extremely verbal 23mo only uses them sometimes.







: I'm glad it's working for all of you, but I'm not convinced modeling is always enough. My DD is not much of an empathetic or sympathetic kid. She's an investigator, not a people-pleaser--I hope that doesn't sound negative, but that's just her.

So, yes, I sometimes do ask DD to ask me again "nicely." She understands what that means--modulate her voice and add a "please." I also have encouraged her to say thank you to another by saying, for instance, "Wow, Grandma, thank you for the neat book! DD, can you thank grandma?" If she does, she does; if she doesn't, we don't push it, but I still do ask. I KNOW this drives some GD people crazy, as evident here, but honestly, I do want people to understand that even though DD doesn't always use good "manners," we are working on it. Let's face it--manners are important, and people are annoyed by people who don't use these social words. Is it a huge deal to my DD to be reminded to say please? Ennh. I do think it is part of my job to teach DD social graces, even if empirically I don't myself consider them The End-all Be-all. I would also teach her, for instance, not to spit or put her hands down her pants in public, not because those things are so terribly evil, but because not doing them is part of learning to function in society.

People get a bee in their bonnets about this issue, I've noticed. I think it's hardly one of the worst GD offenses.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

23 months is very young to expect perfect manners. My dd could not even talk at 23 months...... I do think modelling works best. Is it 100% effective? No. Neither is nagging. The fact is that you cannot force anyone to do anything so how you approach it is important. I do not think most people would be at all surprised or offended if a 23 month old neglected to say thank you. I do not even expect that of 4,5,6 years olds. I do not really start to think manner-less people are "rude" until they are adults....but that in my opinion.

I am not sure why people think this is such a "little GD deal". It is about dignity which is a big deal whether we are talking about "little" things like manner or "big" things like stealing.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
There is just about nothing that grates my nerves more than having some well-meaning person "Remind" dd to say thank you or please. I usually tell them to leave her alone.....which is probably rude. But it would be incredibly rude for someone to remind ME to say something like that and it would be very embarrassing for me. Why do people think it is any less embarrassing for a child?

My parents never ever made me say anything that did not naturally come out of my mouth. If I was too shy or excited or forgetful to say the polite thing, my mom or dad said it for me. Guess what? I always say please, thank you, you're wecome, etc..... We have never asked my dd to say it either and she also says it naturally from modelling. This is most definately not a "have to" issue.


Someone actually reminded YOUR child to do that? That is not right. Parents gently reminding is one thing. Other people have no right to do that IMO.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

May I ask why you think reminders are embarrassing?
Well, Yooper gave a nice explanation, but I'll add my thoughts... It's embarrassing beacuse it puts the child on the spot and call attention to their "failing".

This is all about the meaning content of words, and communication in general. I'll give a scenario. You remind a young DS to say "Thank You" to Grandma for, let's say, a very itchy sweater that she knitted him. He's not feeling all that grateful for it - b/c it hurts and she wants him to wear it all day - but is told to express gratitude anyway. He learns that "Thank You" is essentially a meaningless phrase, and that when you and dad "model" it, you're really just saying meaningless words too. Either he will resent being made to express thoughts that are not his, or he'll just do it and his ability to actually foster feelings of gratitude will be hampered. Maybe both. The point is that language usage helps form our thinking patterns, and misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way - like having actual gratitude.

Another way to handle that situation would be that, when Grandma gives DS the sweater, you say "Thank you for thinking of DS. It was very kind of you. I'll keep it for him for a special snow day." That helps DS save face, gives him an out, so that he feel like you're on his side. It places no onus on DS to be grateful when he's not, but gives him the language pathways to start feeling that Grandma was actually showing kindness. Grandma gets thanked, and it's a positive interaction.

My post before is that if you are embarrassing DC (please let us know if Yooper's post didn't explain that enough...), it is essentially rude, and models rudeness instead of politeness. Your DC gets really mixed messages. Basically that politeness is phoney because it sure feels rude to them. So you can't both correct behavior and model politeness.

Hope that explains my position well enough...

ETA: I want to second everything in post #26. Yooper is spot on there too!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, Yooper gave a nice explanation, but I'll add my thoughts... It's embarrassing beacuse it puts the child on the spot and call attention to their "failing".

This is all about the meaning content of words, and communication in general. I'll give a scenario. You remind a young DS to say "Thank You" to Grandma for, let's say, a very itchy sweater that she knitted him. He's not feeling all that grateful for it - b/c it hurts and she wants him to wear it all day - but is told to express gratitude anyway. He learns that "Thank You" is essentially a meaningless phrase, and that when you and dad "model" it, you're really just saying meaningless words too. Either he will resent being made to express thoughts that are not his, or he'll just do it and his ability to actually foster feelings of gratitude will be hampered. Maybe both. The point is that language usage helps form our thinking patterns, and misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way - like having actual gratitude.

Another way to handle that situation would be that, when Grandma gives DS the sweater, you say "Thank you for thinking of DS. It was very kind of you. I'll keep it for him for a special snow day." That helps DS save face, gives him an out, so that he feel like you're on his side. It places no onus on DS to be grateful when he's not, but gives him the language pathways to start feeling that Grandma was actually showing kindness. Grandma gets thanked, and it's a positive interaction.

My post before is that if you are embarrassing DC (please let us know if Yooper's post didn't explain that enough...), it is essentially rude, and models rudeness instead of politeness. Your DC gets really mixed messages. Basically that politeness is phoney because if sure feels rude to them. So you can't both correct behavior and model politeness.

Hope that explains my position well enough...

ETA: I want to second everything in post #26. Yooper is spot on there too!


I agree that modeling is best, but a gentle reminder every now and then is not harmful, IMO. When alone, you tell your child that they are not going to like everything that they are given, but to say thank you anyway, because someone thought enough to give them that sweater or whatever.

Can't a child be taught to be thankful for the gesture, if not the gift itself?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
Can't a child be taught to be thankful for the gesture, if not the gift itself?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
It places no onus on DS to be grateful when he's not, but gives him the language pathways to start feeling that Grandma was actually showing kindness.

Hope that helps the confusion...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
(snip)...but a gentle reminder every now and then is not harmful, IMO.

Like I said in a post on the previous page, good luck if that's what you think is best. I just won't do that to my children.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

The reminder can be as gentle as you want.....if you do it in front of other people, I do think their is harm in it and that it does send a conflicting message. I personally would not even "rehash" a situation later and tell dd what she should have done. They see and hear us do it. They know how to do it. They choose whether or not to do it themselves. "Discussing" it only puts a bad taste in their mouths about the whole manners thing. I would be happy to discuss it if dd comes to me wanting to know how she should have handled a situation or has a question.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Hope that helps the confusion...

Like I said in a post on the previous page, good luck if that's what you think is best. I just won't do that to my children.


I missed the one little part about Grandma. Thank you.

I do not need good luck, but hank you for wishing me luck anyway.

BTW~I RARELY have to remind either of my children to be polite. I guess I did something right even if I am not full-on GD, huh?









I do not feel I am doing anything terrible to my kids. They are both happy, healthy and well-adjusted kids.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Changed my mind.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OneCatholicMommy*
I just want you to know that this is not always true.
We have modeled gratefulness/good manners and our boys still have to be reminded.


I totally agree.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
IMO the idea of "have to" is a value judgement on your part.

So what if they don't say "please" everytime? Are they in danger? The only reason you "have to" remind them is that you are trying to force compliance.

Letting those "slips" go without "reminders" but with continued modelling will result in children who _genuinely_ respect people and want to communicate that by speaking politely. Because they genuinely feel respected too, it's a language they will understand fundamentally.


I guess I just do not understand you. You seem to be implying that we constantly nag our kids to death every time they open their mouths. Far from it.

I am just going to have to agree to disagree with you. No hard feelings.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well TinkerBelle, you do what you think best. My posts stand and I don't take back anything I said. I have no idea why you think I'm implying that you constantly nag or harrass your kids. I never said anything of the sort. I've already stated my opinion as clearly as I can, so I won't rehash this.

Since you don't need luck, well, happy trails?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

23 months is very young to expect perfect manners. My dd could not even talk at 23 months......
Let me assure you that my DD can talk your ear off.







But let me be clear: I absolutely don't expect perfect manners from her. I don't think that's an age-appropriate expectation, and I would never shame her or punish her for not using good manners (not that I shame her or punish her at all, actually). However, a number of posters previous to me were saying that their very young toddlers had close-to-perfect manners due to (they think) modelling. I am pointing out that this is not always how things pan out.

I do direct her towards more conventionally polite behavior at times, yes--as I remind her to wash her hands before she eats and as I remind her that she must hold my hand in a parking lot and not scream in a restaurant. Does it harm her dignity when I remind her of *those* things, do you think? Does making any request of a child to do something they might not think of somehow harm their dignity? Aren't we perhaps overthinking a tad? This is a very young child, here. Trust me--I do not make a big fat hairy deal out of it. I use a normal, pleasant tone of voice and I certainly do not scream, "You COME BACK here and say THANK-YOU!!" (I've seen this on occasion, yes, but that is not what I am doing.) Also, as you yourself say, DD is not even two--you really think she is feeling hurt dignity when I ask her if she can say "Thank you"? I don't think she has that kind of an understanding yet, honestly.

And yes, I would expect my older child to politely thank Grandma for the itchy sweater, even if she did not like it. I would not force her to wear it, but I will teach my kids that there is such a thing as polite social mores, and sometimes they involve a bit of insincerity.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well TinkerBelle, you do what you think best. My posts stand and I don't take back anything I said. I have no idea why you think I'm implying that you constantly nag or harrass your kids. I never said anything of the sort. I've already stated my opinion as clearly as I can, so I won't rehash this.

Since you don't need luck, well, happy trails?


Okay, perhaps I misunderstood you. It has been "one of those days". But, as my view also stands, we can simply agree to disagree on this one. Have a wonderful day.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Let me assure you that my DD can talk your ear off.








But let me be clear: I absolutely don't expect perfect manners from her. I don't think that's an age-appropriate expectation, and I would never shame her or punish her for not using good manners (not that I shame her or punish her at all, actually). However, a number of posters previous to me were saying that their very young toddlers had close-to-perfect manners due to (they think) modelling. I am pointing out that this is not always how things pan out.

I do direct her towards more conventionally polite behavior at times, yes--as I remind her to wash her hands before she eats and as I remind her that she must hold my hand in a parking lot and not scream in a restaurant. Does it harm her dignity when I remind her of *those* things, do you think? Does making any request of a child to do something they might not think of somehow harm their dignity? Aren't we perhaps overthinking a tad? This is a very young child, here. Trust me--I do not make a big fat hairy deal out of it. I use a normal, pleasant tone of voice and I certainly do not scream, "You COME BACK here and say THANK-YOU!!" (I've seen this on occasion, yes, but that is not what I am doing.) Also, as you yourself say, DD is not even two--you really think she is feeling hurt dignity when I ask her if she can say "Thank you"? I don't think she has that kind of an understanding yet, honestly.

And yes, I would expect my older child to politely thank Grandma for the itchy sweater, even if she did not like it. I would not force her to wear it, but I will teach my kids that there is such a thing as polite social mores, and sometimes they involve a bit of insincerity.


I applaud your post. That was great. And SO what I was trying to get across. Children are not perfect. They are not always going to remember things and as parents, we have a responsibility to raise them to be decent and polite.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I am pointing out that this is not always how things pan out.

I think the point here is, who cares? Why is the goal parroting perfection? Why not sincerity? Why not genuine communication of empathy - even if it does take a little longer to reach "perfection"?

When it's time to wash hands, I say, "Let's wash our hands together." Not, "Go wash your hands please." I think its a world of difference in how the DC feels about themselves and their relationship with you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
DD is not even two--you really think she is feeling hurt dignity when I ask her if she can say "Thank you"?

Yes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I will teach my kids that there is such a thing as polite social mores, and sometimes they involve a bit of insincerity.

More power to ya. I want my kids to learn to _be_ appreciative of people's intentions, not to be insincere. You don't have to want that for your kids.

Ain't no thang to me.

Well, I did rehash even though I wasn't gonna. OK, I'm outta here - we'll disagree.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Tinkerbelle, thanks!

Quote:

When it's time to wash hands, I say, "Let's wash our hands together." Not, "Go wash your hands please." I think its a world of difference in how the DC feels about themselves and their relationship with you.
And what if it's not something you're going to do together?

I'm thinking--I would probably say, "It's time to wash your hands," or "Let's go wash your hands."

Again, after a point I believe one is overthinking things and aspiring to an unrealistic standard of "noncoerciveness." Children do not know everything they need to know to be citizens of the world. It is part of my job as the parent to help them learn these things. I don't think that's disrespectful. I think it's actually respectful--not just of the child (who is probably going to run into some trouble later in life if never informed of basic social graces, such as saying "Thank you" for a gift they don't necessarily want) but of society as a whole.

How do you teach your child not to scream in a restaurant or spit on the sidewalk? Do you simply expect him or her to follow your example and not do those things because you don't? Or might you offer an explanation and reminder? How is that not "embarrassing" your child? How is this different?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
This is all about the meaning content of words, and communication in general. I'll give a scenario. You remind a young DS to say "Thank You" to Grandma for, let's say, a very itchy sweater that she knitted him. He's not feeling all that grateful for it - b/c it hurts and she wants him to wear it all day - but is told to express gratitude anyway. He learns that "Thank You" is essentially a meaningless phrase, and that when you and dad "model" it, you're really just saying meaningless words too. Either he will resent being made to express thoughts that are not his, or he'll just do it and his ability to actually foster feelings of gratitude will be hampered. Maybe both. The point is that language usage helps form our thinking patterns, and misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way - like having actual gratitude.

Hmmm. Or maybe he'll learn that "Thank you" is something you say to someone when they've done something for you, whether you like it or not, because of the effect it has on the person being thanked. And maybe he'll learn that he has a positive effect on people's feelings, and that using good manners seems to improve the mood of the people that he interacts with, and that certain phrases and mannerisms seem to endear people to him, and that helps him navigate society with confidence and in turn boosts his self-esteem. If we want to overthink things...

I agree with Loraxc. My dd is a thinker, too. She wants to thank people, she might not remember. I am a subtle, intuitive person who is strongly bonded to my dd and can tell when she's embarassed. When I gently whisper to her to thank the person who just gave her a sucker, I'm not shaming her. I'm instructing her in the ways of the world. And I'm all for insincere thanks. I mean, I'm just not really that grateful to the person who rung up my groceries. But I'm still going to say thanks.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

What you call overthinking, I call putting thoughtful, conscious intention into all my actions.

Potayto, Potahto I guess.

"Oh, you feel like screaming? Let's go do it outside so no one will mind." Or, "I'll take you outside to scream when we are done here. Let's wait until then to make noise."

"If you need to spit, I'll give you something to spit it into."

I don't call attention to their faults. Period.

Quote:

And I'm all for insincere thanks. I mean, I'm just not really that grateful to the person who rung up my groceries. But I'm still going to say thanks.
Well, I actually am grateful. Perhaps that's where we differ on this.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

"Oh, you feel like screaming? Let's go do it outside so no one will mind." Or, "I'll take you outside to scream when we are done here. Let's wait until then to make noise."

"If you need to spit, I'll give you something to spit it into."
Hmm-- you are still essentially controlling their actions and telling them what to do, are you not? I could see myself saying the second response (probably not the first) in the restaurant example, and probably the spitting one as well, by the way. I would probably explain why I was making these requests. ("This isn't a place for screaming. We stay quiet in restaurants so other people can enjoy their food." "People don't like to step in spit. That's why we don't spit on the floor.")

But in the broadest sense, I think these requests could be called coercive, unless you do not have any follow-through if your child does not do as you suggest. (I.e, child continues to spit, and you ignore this.) I still don't see why it is okay to gently guide children to behave in socially acceptable ways in some situations (being quiet in a restaurant) but not in others (saying thank you for an unliked gift).


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Here is one for you to add in the mix - what if the gentle reminder is done in different language AND in casual tone, so nobody but DD and I understand? Would that still be embarrassing to her?


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

As most of the pp have said, children imitate what they see. We always say please, thank you excuse me etc and dd just naturally followed our lead.My mother often corrected grammer etc and i find myself doing the same. i have to try to watch that in public i don't wanrt to embarrass anyone!


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:

You remind a young DS to say "Thank You" to Grandma for, let's say, a very itchy sweater that she knitted him. He's not feeling all that grateful for it - b/c it hurts and she wants him to wear it all day - but is told to express gratitude anyway. He learns that "Thank You" is essentially a meaningless phrase, and that when you and dad "model" it, you're really just saying meaningless words too. Either he will resent being made to express thoughts that are not his, or he'll just do it and his ability to actually foster feelings of gratitude will be hampered. Maybe both. The point is that language usage helps form our thinking patterns, and misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way - like having actual gratitude.
aira - i mostly agree with you on this. in this situation, i'd probably thank grandma myself and say to DS that it was very nice of her to take the time to knit something for him. i wouldn't expect or demand that he thank her. eventually, i hope that he will see that the "thank you" was more for her effort and less for the result. he's 2.5 so he's not gonna get that for a while. LOL but i agree, i don't want to teach him that "thank you" is meaningless.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:

"Oh, you feel like screaming? Let's go do it outside so no one will mind." Or, "I'll take you outside to scream when we are done here. Let's wait until then to make noise."

"If you need to spit, I'll give you something to spit it into."

I don't call attention to their faults. Period.
Okay I agree with everyone here, even the people that have differing opinions all have something valuable to add to this discussion, and I am in agreement with most of it. It's thoughtful of a parent to not bring attention to a child's "faults" in public, but to be honest, I don't like the word fault and I wouldn't use it to describe natural toddler/child behaviour. Maybe I would call it instead "undesirable behaviour", and it _should_ have attention called to it - in a constructive manner. Meaning, instead of encouraging a child to "spit later" or whatever, perhaps we could implore them to not do it at all, for reasons XYZ. If it is such an undesirable behaviour.

Modelling does work, better than anything I'm sure, and sometimes I have to remind myself of dd's age and the expectations I should or should not have of her. But as I have said in another "non-coercive" thread: sometimes people put so much stock in a particular belief system that when it doesn't truly apply to something, they have to invent new rules to allow that something to fit into the system.









When we _don't_ put ourselves into a label (such as non-coerc), we give ourselves the freedom as parents to be creative but also to use tactics that work for us, whether they fit in a system or not.







Just my opinion, as I said, I agree with most people here. But some things are just hard for me to put stock in.


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## organicgirl (Nov 10, 2005)

I am speaking strictly from personal experience here.

My parents did not explicitly teach me manners and I never really picked up on a lot of stuff (not just manners, but social skills too)!

I do NOT think it is embarrassing to be reminded...if done discretely. I have instructed my boyfriend to remind me to say please, say thank you, chew with my mouth shut







: , etc. if he is able to do so discretely. Obviously, I do not want him to announcing a faux pas (spelling?) loudly in a restaurant, for example. But discrete reminders, given in love, are very much appreciated and certainly much better than my mother's approach when I am home which is to nag me about my lack of manners.

I think that whether or not a reminder is embarrassing and demeaning to the child depends on the child, the situation, what the parent says, and how the parent says it. A parent needs to discern (which I imagine can be difficult) how their child is feeling about reminders. Alternatively, ask the child what they would like you to do. "DC do reminders help you learn manners or are you already working hard on being polite and resent being reminded?" Not really sure this would actually work, but just an idea.

Again, just my .02.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

This is an interesting thread. I believe many here are enmeshed with the idea that their child either is unwilling or unable to use some *expected* level of manners by some arbitrary point in time. And thus feel a need to alter the course of that by prompting/reminding them to use manners. None-the-less, encouraging insincerity for the potential people pleasing benefit.







:

However, how does one *know* they won't use manners consistently, if not perfectly through your sincere (or insincere) modelling alone, if provided "enough" time? Perhaps, they genuinely don't want to thank the person.









I certainly would consider it rude, condescending and embarrassing to have anyone prompt/remind me of manners, unless I solicited them to do so. Basically, the child's "choice" is to refuse or comply. "Reminding" certainly seems to be on the cusp of humiliation, *if* done with any other audience observing. Even "politely" reminded publicly.







: It seems that the need to 'show that we are teaching manners' is the underlying need and this is basically a reflection of being 'embarrassed' by "our" child's lack of propriety. This is where the child's is being judged. Not by the audience, but by the parent. And I firmly believe this has much more potential for harming their dignity than any 'lack of manners' perceived by others, especially before age whatever~ 6, 12, 18?

I have no such expectations, deadlines, or enmeshed attribution (pride, nor embarrassment) to our son's choice to use, or not to use, manners "with propriety". His authentic behavior is separate from mine, irrelevant of how others choose to judge him or me. I model authentic gratitude and he does the same. Those who expect inauthentic gratitude are apt to be disappointed.







........By both of us.

I would only thank someone "for our son" if the convention was to do so and he was unaware of the practice. Since we consistently model thanking people for many things everyday in many interactions, I don't know how he couldn't be aware of the practice. Same with please and excuse me. I believe a child's genuine delight at receiving a gift is their own *sincere* way of communicating their delight at receiving the gift. It may be that they run off and play with it; jump up and down with glee; or exclaim 'oh, this is what I wanted!!'. Other times, they may also demonstrate their genuine disappointment with a gift and say nothing, decline the gift or push it away. I certainly wouldn't choose to manipulate our son's honesty in order to accomplish a goal of pleasing another. That seems to engender lying as a culturally (parentally) sanctioned tool of manipulating other's feelings for one's own benefits.









I would thank someone for their effort though, regardless of ds's response, assuming I did appreciate the effort. (I am thinking that I don't know if I would thank someone for buying ds a toy gun, perhaps.
















I totally agree that the principles of honesty and dignity are as relevant as non-coercion regarding manners. In my opinion, coercing or promoting insincerity seems to be undignified, even (AND ESPECIALLY) for the "benefit" of societal propriety. For those things that actually impose on others (of which he is unaware), such as loud voices at the symphony, I provide observations of _other people's reactions_ and provide information regarding conventions. I would even directly request that he moderate his voice, for my benefit of attending. Or I'd provide information about not wanting to step in spit on the sidewalk, or whatever. But there is no expectation (on my part) that our son comply. However, I would choose to leave a place if our son was unwilling or unable to moderate his disruption of others. And I'd facilitate him to meet his needs elsewhere. This hasn't required coercion though, nor humiliation; just advocation to meet both his needs and other's needs in a mutually agreeable manner.

I believe that modelling "works", if unjudged opportunities consistently exist. I believe coercion or prompting "works" too, but at what cost and for whose benefit?

Pat


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Thank you Scubamama! That is exactly how I feel but was completely unable to make it sound right.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Nail on the head, scubamama...

Thank you for contributing that well-framed explanation.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Totally OT: Happy Day of Birthing Aira!

Pat


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## mamaGjr (Jul 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
First and foremost I think you model the behaviour you want and you start that about the time they can recognize you as "mom". That's what, about 30 seconds out of the womb? Seriously, I think that modeling is the most important thing you can do and you do that from the very beginning.

Beyond that, my nearly 3 YO is good about saying please and such. I don't think I consiously taught this much before about 2. Now I will wait quietly until she asks nicely rather than demanding something, but I don't nag. I quietly coach proper manners when we are visiting someone. And respect for all of God's creation (including people, yourself and your environment) is THE big value in our family and we talk about it constantly.

I suspect your SIL's children ignore her about things other than manners. Sounds like she has one of those parenting styles that I call "all flutter, no substance." At the point that a child of mine was so rude, I would be standing in front of them, turning off the TV and taking away the snacks and drinks until I got their attention. Then we would probably go home.

If you are effective at teaching respect for others, then manners are a snap.









I have always just tried to model..."Please do this, Thank you for doing that"

I always remind my son until the correct response or a respectable one is given.... I have always heard my son has the best manners (we only do family sharing ) so that makes for different dynamics.
to boot ,
my son is so rude with me ALWAYS ...i keep reminding about manners ... i suppose it is making somewhat of an impression. at this point hdoes mostly the opposite of what i say ...


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:

My parents did not explicitly teach me manners and I never really picked up on a lot of stuff (not just manners, but social skills too)!
ME TOO!!!

As I entered adulthood I used to find myself struggling with simple phrases such as Thank you (and even I love you, but that's OT). For instance, if someone would compliment me, I had trouble thanking them for the compliment. I would toss it off as in "Oh, I guess so..", etc. I believe this was because my family was *normal* with manners, but definitly wasn't big on _emotions_. I still struggle with this, but not so much now. I am very in touch with my emotions, but I don't share them easily. I bottle them up and it translates to my manners and how I greet strangers. It's frustrating but it's learned (or rather, not learned) behaviour from the behaviour my own parents modelled.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:

It seems that the need to 'show that we are teaching manners' is the underlying need and this is basically a reflection of being 'embarrassed' by "our" child's lack of propriety. This is where the child's is being judged. Not by the audience, but by the parent.
I agree. I posted this in another thread before, but I see this all the time:

I was at the library and a grandmother had her not-even-two-year-old granddaughter with her. An older boy handed the little girl a puppet and the grandmother urged the little girl to say thank you a total of five times. I felt sick.







I guess that's how it was done when she was raising kids (or rather - small adults







), but I do believe that 2 is definitely young to be expecting manners, let alone empathy....


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## alamama (Mar 21, 2005)

I think there is a real difference between reminding or correcting children in front of other people and talking about manners in a general way in private.

When I have lived in other countries with another language, I primarily learned how to do things by following what was modelled to me. But it was always helpful when someone took the time to explain "this is how we do things here." And I remember so often as a child being confused about what was going on or expected of me. Conversation and information ahead of time can ease that. I read posts from mamas here who do a lot of role playing in fun ways with their children to prepare them for different situations. I love that idea. It is a step beyond modeling but in no way means coercing behavior. You can still trust that they will put the ideas into action on their own timetable as appropriate for them and not try to force them to "be polite" in social situations.

Conversation may also help children understand why we use the social conventions that we do. For example, my gratitude is not based solely on my like/dislike of the gift. I have been truly grateful for some atrocious gifts because I appreciate the effort, thought and love that went into them. I don't expect a young child to make that distinction themselves, or a two-year-old to understand it even with explanation. I would be glad to offer thanks on their behalf. But I think that would be a valuable conversation topic with an older child.


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## organicgirl (Nov 10, 2005)

Quote:

I think there is a real difference between reminding or correcting children in front of other people and talking about manners in a general way in private.

When I have lived in other countries with another language, I primarily learned how to do things by following what was modelled to me. But it was always helpful when someone took the time to explain "this is how we do things here." And I remember so often as a child being confused about what was going on or expected of me. Conversation and information ahead of time can ease that. I read posts from mamas here who do a lot of role playing in fun ways with their children to prepare them for different situations. I love that idea. It is a step beyond modeling but in no way means coercing behavior. You can still trust that they will put the ideas into action on their own timetable as appropriate for them and not try to force them to "be polite" in social situations.

Conversation may also help children understand why we use the social conventions that we do. For example, my gratitude is not based solely on my like/dislike of the gift. I have been truly grateful for some atrocious gifts because I appreciate the effort, thought and love that went into them. I don't expect a young child to make that distinction themselves, or a two-year-old to understand it even with explanation. I would be glad to offer thanks on their behalf. But I think that would be a valuable conversation topic with an older child.





























to alamama

What an excellent comparison! I really like this! Sounds like a great idea to instruct your children without embarrassing them.

A note about manners for 2 year olds...they are 2!!!! According to Piaget, a cognitive psychologist, children at this age are in the preoperational stage of cognitive development. One of the defining features of this stage is egocentrism. For a while, children are simply not able to see things from the perspective of others. It is a cognitive thing. As much as empathy is a value in our culture, it is something you cannot develop until you are cognitively ready, KWIM?

Also, SunRayeMomi, I'm glad I'm not the only one learning manners and social interaciton as an adult!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
This is an interesting thread. I believe many here are enmeshed with the idea that their child either is unwilling or unable to use some *expected* level of manners by some arbitrary point in time. And thus feel a need to alter the course of that by prompting/reminding them to use manners. None-the-less, encouraging insincerity for the potential people pleasing benefit.







:

However, how does one *know* they won't use manners consistently, if not perfectly through your sincere (or insincere) modelling alone, if provided "enough" time? Perhaps, they genuinely don't want to thank the person.









I certainly would consider it rude, condescending and embarrassing to have anyone prompt/remind me of manners, unless I solicited them to do so. Basically, the child's "choice" is to refuse or comply. "Reminding" certainly seems to be on the cusp of humiliation, *if* done with any other audience observing. Even "politely" reminded publicly.







: It seems that the need to 'show that we are teaching manners' is the underlying need and this is basically a reflection of being 'embarrassed' by "our" child's lack of propriety. This is where the child's is being judged. Not by the audience, but by the parent. And I firmly believe this has much more potential for harming their dignity than any 'lack of manners' perceived by others, especially before age whatever~ 6, 12, 18?

I have no such expectations, deadlines, or enmeshed attribution (pride, nor embarrassment) to our son's choice to use, or not to use, manners "with propriety". His authentic behavior is separate from mine, irrelevant of how others choose to judge him or me. I model authentic gratitude and he does the same. Those who expect inauthentic gratitude are apt to be disappointed.







........By both of us.

I would only thank someone "for our son" if the convention was to do so and he was unaware of the practice. Since we consistently model thanking people for many things everyday in many interactions, I don't know how he couldn't be aware of the practice. Same with please and excuse me. I believe a child's genuine delight at receiving a gift is their own *sincere* way of communicating their delight at receiving the gift. It may be that they run off and play with it; jump up and down with glee; or exclaim 'oh, this is what I wanted!!'. Other times, they may also demonstrate their genuine disappointment with a gift and say nothing, decline the gift or push it away. I certainly wouldn't choose to manipulate our son's honesty in order to accomplish a goal of pleasing another. That seems to engender lying as a culturally (parentally) sanctioned tool of manipulating other's feelings for one's own benefits.









I would thank someone for their effort though, regardless of ds's response, assuming I did appreciate the effort. (I am thinking that I don't know if I would thank someone for buying ds a toy gun, perhaps.
















I totally agree that the principles of honesty and dignity are as relevant as non-coercion regarding manners. In my opinion, coercing or promoting insincerity seems to be undignified, even (AND ESPECIALLY) for the "benefit" of societal propriety. For those things that actually impose on others (of which he is unaware), such as loud voices at the symphony, I provide observations of _other people's reactions_ and provide information regarding conventions. I would even directly request that he moderate his voice, for my benefit of attending. Or I'd provide information about not wanting to step in spit on the sidewalk, or whatever. But there is no expectation (on my part) that our son comply. However, I would choose to leave a place if our son was unwilling or unable to moderate his disruption of others. And I'd facilitate him to meet his needs elsewhere. This hasn't required coercion though, nor humiliation; just advocation to meet both his needs and other's needs in a mutually agreeable manner.

I believe that modelling "works", if unjudged opportunities consistently exist. I believe coercion or prompting "works" too, but at what cost and for whose benefit?

Pat


Now, to be fair, a very small child will not know to be polite, even if they do not like the gift. That is where teaching comes in. But, I do not think that saying thank you or acting appreciative for at least the EFFORT of the gift is wicked and evil lying. I mean, if your friend had a baby who was really ugly, would you say so? I am betting you would not. You might find a redeeming quality about the infant or say something that would not be construed as an insult.

I believe that part of raising our children to be decent human beings is to teach them that sometimes, they might receive a gift that they do not like or want. But, the giver went to the trouble to pick/make/obtain that gift for them, and that the child should express thanks regardless, and not express direct displeasure, because that might hurt the other person's feelings.

Although I may disagree with you on some things, I respect your opinion and feel that you raise some good points. I agree that constant nagging or threats, like, "HEY DS. Say thank you or else.", constantly, is definitely wrong, but I do not feel that a "Hey look DS, Aunt Suzy made this hat for you. How nice. Thank you Aunt Suzy." is a bad thing to jog the child's memory if in the excitement of the moment, they forget their manners.

The other day at the doctor's office, the lady asked if my 8 yr old could have a lollipop and I said yes. He took it and said thank you, with no prompting whatsoever. If he had forgotten, I would have said, "That was SO nice, ma'am, thank you." He would have been prompted without embarassment. Oh, and BTW, he thanked ME for letting him have it, when we got to the car, because we do not have candy as a matter of course. It is a treat.

Whether we like it or not, manners matter in our society. It takes no more time and effort to say "thanks", than to say, "Yuck. I don't like that." It takes just as much time to smile as it does to scowl about something we do not like, to spare someone's feelings.

My Grandma is 78 yrs old. She has given me things I do not like and cannot use. You know what I do? I thank her and then later on give the stuff to someone who can use it. I would die before hurting my Grandma's feelings.

My mother taught me that yes, my feelings are important, but other people's are too.

Again, I may not agree with you totally, but I respect what you said. I think you are a very informed Mama, and I enjoy your posts immensely.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Totally OT: Happy Day of Birthing Aira!

Why thank you for the kind wishes! It was a happy day indeed! (But today is the partying!! WooHoo!!)


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Tinkerbell,

I don't disagree with the process that you suggested in your last post. That is modelling. 'Oh, thank you, that is nice' coming from the parent is genuine appreciation spoken for the gift. I certainly can appreciate the effort or offer of someone else for creating joy (or attempting to create joy) for another. Just as I am appreciative of all the MDC mamas who are Helper Mamas for the MIN. There have been many people expressing gratitude in the Holiday Helper thread for the efforts that others have made, not on their own behalf, but because others showed they cared. (Personally, I don't like the judgement laden word "nice" at all. I frankly think it is too generic to be sincere.)****[How is that for working in a plug for the MIN?







]

Authentic appreciation for gifts (and efforts of others) is something that I have worked to distinguish from my family of origin's practice of gifts 'having strings attached', since gifts were held as rewards, bargaining chips, tools of coercion even. I am very aware and emphatic that gifting and gratitude be genuine for me. Both as the gift giver and the gift getter. I don't give a gift for the benefit I will reap. Rather for the potential joy of the reciever, without expectation of a debt due for my effort. True gifting comes from the heart, not with an invoice for gratitude, in my opinion. And coming from the heart is the basis of authenticity that is critical in my relationships with others. Something that I hold dearer than propriety. I am not "propriety be damned", but I am not going to act at the expense of being true to myself either. Yes, it is that big a deal. Each little act of self-denial of one's own true self is cutting away and replacing the authentic person with a facade.

I also believe that Respect is treating others how *they* wish to be treated. Not only treating others as *we* would like to be treated. And it is important to me to treat others with Respect. So, I don't consider it disingenuous to use extraordinary propriety when that is important to others. But, not at the expense of authenticity. Learning how to balance being true to myself and Respect for others concurrently is something that I believe that children can 'teach' us. Rather than the other way around. Most adults have so much less authenticity than children, that children are _our models_ of "decent human beings", in my opinion. I don't believe that we need "to raise them to be decent human beings", I am awed that they are such innocent, open and loving beings already.

Children _learn_ to treat people with disrespect, if that is how they are treated. And many, many are treated with disrespect (not treated as *they* wish to be treated.) And furthermore, others expect children to act inauthentically (not true to themselves, ie. treating _themselves_ with disrespect). So, our culture molds and teaches children to be *less* decent human beings than they inherently are from my observations. My main goal is to learn to be more authentic, and our son provides me with ample opportunities to practice this while treating him with respect concurrently. He is my most decent model of humanity and all that the human spirit can share with others. Innocence, openness, honesty, authenticity and loving acceptance. It is the adults who need to learn from the children.

An on-line friend has a sig line "Kids are God; Pay attention." - Viggo Mortensen

Pat


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i did really poorly with "manners" when i was a kid.

i remember teachers scolding me for yawing in their faces, not covering my nose when i sneezed, slurping soup at lunch, not saying excuse me when burping or gassing, using please, thank you, taking turns etc.

i remember going to a boyfriend's house when i was in college and his grandmother snapping at me to take my elbows off the table. i had no idea that when you are eating a formal dinner you didn't do that.

i chalk it up to the fact thatvery little of it was modeled in my home. my parents were very disrespectful to my brother and i. their parenting philosopy was "never give a child what he/she needs or wants."

i also never learned other really basic stuff, like brushing my teething, taking a shower, picking my dishes up after a meal or putting my clothes in the hamper after getting undressed. why? i have no idea. my father bathed everyday. my mother did not and still doesn't. i think it was just a basic disconnect that happened. there was very poor modeling and no follow through. my father would scream "YOU'RE ALL SLOBS!" and then that would be it.

so, i think that there is something to be said for modeling and also some concrete follow-through.

my son will whine: "gimmie dat!" and i say "give me that please mommy" while reaching for it and giving it to him.

sometimes he's great with "manners" and sometimes he's conan the barbarian. we don't scold him when he's rude, we just model the "polite" behavior for him. sometimes when he does something really rude, i'll say "it's polite to _______." and leave it at that.

while i don't want him to feel bad for slip ups, i also don't want him to feel mortified when he is 8 that he didn't know to cover his mouth when yawing or to say excuse me when he bumps into someone. i want him to be prepared to function in the world better than i was and some of that may take some direct instruction, and don't think that is punitive or controling.

just my .02.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

The thing that is striking about this thread is that I get the idea that people seem to think someone is on the side of not teaching manners. No one is suggesting that children should not learn manners. The only thing at issue here is how that is achieved.

It does not _have_ to be pay me now or pay me later with this. An alternative method of teaching manners is consistent modeling while not shaming. If you remember how you felt when being scolded and/or later embarrassed by not knowing the "rules", then wouldn't you have perferred to have learned without the negative feelings attached to those methods? That is what I want for my child.

Where some of the argument seems to be is that some people think it is the lessor of two evils to shame the children early on to save them the embarrassment later on in life when they are supposed to know these things. Children feel everything more potently than adults. My opinion is that children feel the shame of being "caught" so much more powerfully than a 20 year old. It is not the lessor of two evils to give them this experience. But again, my main point is that _both_ evils can be avoided while teaching children manners. For example, if this message offends one's personal belief system to the point of discomfort then the problem is you are probably feeling shamed and you don't like it, and if it has to happen then I'd rather an adult feel embarrassed - in a fair fight - than their helpless child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I don't believe that we need "to raise them to be decent human beings", I am awed that they are such innocent, open and loving beings already.

Children learn to treat people with disrespect, if that is how they are treated. And many, many are treated with disrespect (not treated as they wish to be treated.) And furthermore, others expect children to act inauthentically (not true to themselves, ie. treating themselves with disrespect). So, our culture molds and teaches children to be less decent human beings than they inherently are from my observations.

This stands out as ringing particularly true for me. Thanks for posting this.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

There are 2 variables here people aren't really talking about ... First, in a brand-new situation, kids don't always KNOW how to act, and there's no way for you to model. I think coaching (reminding?) is good in that situation. Preferably before-hand, but you can't anticipate every new situation beforehand. Like the PP who talked about living in a new culture - sometimes being told what's appropriate is useful. Not the same as nagging or coercing IMO.

The second is, who is modeling for our kids? At very early ages, yes, maybe it's only you, or it's a very small circle of caretakers. But by age 3 or 4 kids will also copy neighbors, friends, relatives, characters from TV/movies ... My own child is still an infant, but I helped my sister raise 2, and there were times it was IMPORTANT to say clearly "We don't do things that way. In our family, we do this." (ie, when they deliberately wanted to try new behaviors - snatching toys, rude language, "Talk to the hand!" etc).

Just want to make the point - modeling is the bedrock, but it isn't the end-all be-all blanket solution. Sooner or later mamas do need other tools. And then language (reminders or explanations) can be a non-damaging teaching tool, too.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Goiod point, crescentaluna--and it goes along with what I believe about how it is my job to teach my child about the social customs I value.

Quote:

I believe that part of raising our children to be decent human beings is to teach them that sometimes, they might receive a gift that they do not like or want. But, the giver went to the trouble to pick/make/obtain that gift for them, and that the child should express thanks regardless, and not express direct displeasure, because that might hurt the other person's feelings.
I agree.

One family within my larger family has not done much with teaching "gift manners." It may be somewhat cultural--the mother comes from a country without our tradition of holiday giving and is still sort of mystified by the whole present "thing." They have not taught their children (now 5 and 13) to politely thank a gift giver even when a gift is not quite right. What you see when the children open gifts is their "true self," I suppose--which means that many times they have opened gifts from us and made faces, said they didn't like the gift or put them aside in obvious disdain. Yes, I am the grown-up, but I can tell you that it is not a heart-warming thing to encounter. They also do not write thank-you notes--ever.

I really am all for authenticity in many, many situations. But I don't want that to be my child.

I also emphatically do not believe that my two-year-old is embarrassed by my mildly encouraging her to say "Thank you." I know my child, and I just don't think so. Actually, I don't think she even feels embarrassment yet. An older child--yes, it's certainly possible, but I think the reminding can be done subtlely. I like the "code word" idea.

I think some posters are being a bit dramatic with their use of the word "shaming," anyway. I still don't see why reminding a child to thank someone is automatically shaming her and destroying her personhood while reminding her not to yell in a restaurant is not. I think we are putting more adult ideas about shame and social embarrassment on children than most young children actually have. I am not a fan of the "Would I want someone to do it to ME?" argument, generally. I wouldn't want someone to remind me to thank someone, no. I also wouldn't want someone to tell me to keep my voice down in a restaurant, or to ask that I hold their hand in a parking lot or be carried, or...I am not a child, and my child is not an adult. This is not a "better than" judgment--but we are different.

By the way, I have no problem with occasional "insincerity for the potential people pleasing benefit," in the right cause. As someone else pointed out, most of us do it from time to time. ("What a beautiful baby!") I would far rather my child told a white lie to Grandma about her gift ("I really like the crocheted shawl--thanks!") than that she hurt Grandma's feelings by making a face and not writing a thank-you. I really would. This may be a difference of values. I DO actually believe that not thanking people imposes on others and hurts others just as screaming at the symphony does.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*

Where some of the argument seems to be is that some people think it is the lessor of two evils to shame the children early on to save them the embarrassment later on in life when they are supposed to know these things.

i certainly hope you don't think i was implying this. i never said a think about shaming. and i don't think it shaming to ask my son to go upstairs if he decides he needs to play with his penis in the living room while company is over.







i have not told him there was naything dirty or worng with it, simply that it is not polite to do that when company is over. while his father certianly doesn't model that kind of behavior for him, my son engages in all kinds of "rude" behavior that is not modeled for him.

while i feel that i have raised my son in a somewhat feral way, i do think that it is my job to help him "get" certain aspects of respecting other's boundaries and social norms. and i stongly believe this can be done without shaming him or him becoming a social misfit.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

Quote:

Where some of the argument seems to be is that some people think it is the lessor of two evils to shame the children early on to save them the embarrassment later on in life when they are supposed to know these things
Coming late to this conversation... Just want to say that I don't think gentle reminders are shaming. I hear that you do.







My 4 year old boy is really very consistent with his pleases and thankyous, but when he forgets, I remind him. Gently, quietly and without judgement (i.e. more of a 'when someone gives me something I like to...' than a 'what's the magic word??'). He is extremely verbal and very emotionally literate, and I don't get the feeling that he feels at all shamed by these encounters. Most of the time he reacts like someone who clearly forgot something ("Oh, yeah! Thanks, Aunt So-and-so!").

I do think there needs to be a balance between good manners and healthy assertive sincerity. Meaning, I never want a kid who chooses manners over safety in a situation where s/he should say, "Leave me alone, creep!", nor do I want a child to feel like his/her authentic voice is not valued. My boy recently had a birthday, and his Aunties gave him a guitar, a whoopie cushion and some fake poop (







). He is your typical bodily-fuction-obsessed 4 year old, so they thought he'd have fun with these things. Turns out the poop kind of disappointed him, even though he saw the comic potential in leaving it on someone's chair or something like that. When we wrote a thank you card to them, he dictated, "Thank you, Kelli and Stacy for the presents... I didn't really like getting the poop, but thanks for it anyway. The guitar I bring out every time there's rock and roll on the radio, and I made Auntie Linda sit on the fart pad over and over. It was funny." I didn't have any problem with him being honest about the gift, and neither did they. The whole thing was rather hilarious, actually.









Now, we can all debate whether or not I am truly teaching my child good manners with fake poop and a whoopie cushion.


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, Yooper gave a nice explanation, but I'll add my thoughts... It's embarrassing beacuse it puts the child on the spot and call attention to their "failing".

This is all about the meaning content of words, and communication in general. I'll give a scenario. You remind a young DS to say "Thank You" to Grandma for, let's say, a very itchy sweater that she knitted him. He's not feeling all that grateful for it - b/c it hurts and she wants him to wear it all day - but is told to express gratitude anyway. He learns that "Thank You" is essentially a meaningless phrase, and that when you and dad "model" it, you're really just saying meaningless words too. Either he will resent being made to express thoughts that are not his, or he'll just do it and his ability to actually foster feelings of gratitude will be hampered. Maybe both. The point is that language usage helps form our thinking patterns, and misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way - like having actual gratitude.

Another way to handle that situation would be that, when Grandma gives DS the sweater, you say "Thank you for thinking of DS. It was very kind of you. I'll keep it for him for a special snow day." That helps DS save face, gives him an out, so that he feel like you're on his side. It places no onus on DS to be grateful when he's not, but gives him the language pathways to start feeling that Grandma was actually showing kindness. Grandma gets thanked, and it's a positive interaction.

My post before is that if you are embarrassing DC (please let us know if Yooper's post didn't explain that enough...), it is essentially rude, and models rudeness instead of politeness. Your DC gets really mixed messages. Basically that politeness is phoney because it sure feels rude to them. So you can't both correct behavior and model politeness.

Hope that explains my position well enough...

ETA: I want to second everything in post #26. Yooper is spot on there too!

I think I understand your opinion better now. Thank you!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I really am all for authenticity in many, many situations. But I don't want that to be my child.

So you want you child(ren) to be authentic and true to themselves, so long as what they express is acceptable to everyone else? Do I have that right?

What's the problem with allowing them to develop _authentic_ gratitude and _authentic_ empathy?

Why is it presupposed that a child acting with authenticity must necessarily always be impolite?

When I hear "I know my child, and s/he doesn't feel embarrassment yet," I certainly question whether you have ever ventured outside the cultural paradigm that tells you that to be the case. It sounds to me like your "knowing" your child is likely shaded somewhat by expectation.

The whole nutshell of my point(s) is that we owe them the opportunity to be authentically polite. It's not impossible, no matter how much you say it is. Insincerity is not a requisite for politeness. That's true even if you can't or won't see it. It's possible to live in a constant state of loving gratitude - regardless of circumstance.

ETA: OneCatholicMommy, I'm glad I was able to explain my thoughts. Hope they can be of help somehow...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Hmm. I always find it a little funny when people are so incredibly critical of each other on the GD board...

Quote:

So you want you child(ren) to be authentic and true to themselves, so long as what they express is acceptable to everyone else?
Quite a leap to make, wouldn't you say? No. I think there are situations in life where the kind, polite and considerate thing to do is to thank someone, say something nice about something, etc., even if at times it is not always sincere. As my child(ren) get older I am sure I will explain the concept of the "little white lie" and will also try to make it clear that it is the spirit of the gift or kind impulse that counts, not necessarily its material manifestation. What makes you think children are not sophisticated and empathic enough to understand *this*? Turn it on its head for a moment...

Quote:

Why is it presupposed that a child acting with authenticity must necessarily always be impolite?
I never said this, either. Of course I don't think this. A child will like some presents, and not like others. A child will feel grateful many times, but may not understand why something is worthy of gratitude at others, and may need to be reminded. Even as an adult I sometimes have to remind myself that someone was *trying* to be kind and considerate when they did XYZ.

As to whether or not I know my own child...I suppose we'll just have to differ on that particular point.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I wasn't intending to be critical. I apologize if my directness was too strong. I was articulating what I got out of this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I suppose--which means that many times they have opened gifts from us and made faces, said they didn't like the gift or put them aside in obvious disdain. Yes, I am the grown-up, but I can tell you that it is not a heart-warming thing to encounter. They also do not write thank-you notes--ever.

I really am all for authenticity in many, many situations. But I don't want that to be my child.

If I misunderstood, then what is it that you do want for your child? I got that you value authenicity, but not over people-pleasing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I would far rather my child told a white lie to Grandma about her gift ("I really like the crocheted shawl--thanks!") than that she hurt Grandma's feelings by making a face and not writing a thank-you. I really would. This may be a difference of values. I DO actually believe that not thanking people imposes on others and hurts others (snip)

If people-pleasing is more important to you than authenticity, then we'll just have to differ on this. I'm being authentic here, I understand you don't find it pleasant. But if I undertsand your value system, shouldn't you be placating me?









---

On to a different point... I still question the validity of your assertion that 2 year olds don't really experience embarrassment, but someday will be cognizant of the parental slight, per the following two quotes:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
DD is not even two--you really think she is feeling hurt dignity when I ask her if she can say "Thank you"? I don't think she has that kind of an understanding yet, honestly.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Actually, I don't think she even feels embarrassment yet. An older child--yes, it's certainly possible

From my person experience, I caught myself unintentionally embarrassing DS (just about 1 year old) just by telling a cute story about something he did, and stopped to apologize. But don't take my word for it, there are plently of books about this. I would recommend Alice ******.

---

No one is disputing the following:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
A child will feel grateful many times, but may not understand why something is worthy of gratitude at others, and may need to be reminded.

What is in quesion is the method of reminding. And even the expectation that children should perform flawlessly in acting insincere.

---

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Why is it presupposed that a child acting with authenticity must necessarily always be impolite?


I never said this, either. Of course I don't think this.

OK, well I got the impression that you thought this from:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
They have not taught their children (now 5 and 13) to politely thank a gift giver even when a gift is not quite right. What you see when the children open gifts is their "true self,"

Maybe I can make my point more easily by approaching this from an inverse of my statement - which would be something like: Why is it presupposed that children expressing gratitude must be acting insincerely?

If you don't agree with the original, I assume that you wouldn't buy into the inverse, and therefore you don't need the little white lies you mentioned here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I think there are situations in life where the kind, polite and considerate thing to do is to thank someone, say something nice about something, etc., *even if at times it is not always sincere*. As my child(ren) get older I am sure I will explain the concept of *the "little white lie"* (snip)

---

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Even as an adult I sometimes have to remind myself that someone was *trying* to be kind and considerate when they did XYZ.

Then it sounds like you're striving for this too:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
It's possible to live in a constant state of loving gratitude - regardless of circumstance.

Kudos to you! I applaud you in your efforts.

---

And since this seems to still be a remaining question:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I still don't see why it is okay to gently guide children to behave in socially acceptable ways in some situations (being quiet in a restaurant) but not in others (saying thank you for an unliked gift).

And:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
I still don't see why reminding a child to thank someone is automatically shaming her and destroying her personhood while reminding her not to yell in a restaurant is not.

I gave many examples, but what resolves the surface level inconsistenty is:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I don't call attention to their faults. Period.

It is a common element in my interactions with my DC.

_*It all in how it's handled - not that it gets handled.*_

This is central to my entire point.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
By the way, I have no problem with occasional "insincerity for the potential people pleasing benefit," in the right cause. As someone else pointed out, most of us do it from time to time. ("What a beautiful baby!") I would far rather my child told a white lie to Grandma about her gift ("I really like the crocheted shawl--thanks!") than that she hurt Grandma's feelings by making a face and not writing a thank-you. I really would. This may be a difference of values. I DO actually believe that not thanking people imposes on others and hurts others just as screaming at the symphony does.

I agree with this so much. I think you are doing your children a disservice by not teaching them this. For a number of reasons my youngest sister never learned very good manners, and it causes her LOTS of problems. She's lost jobs and friends because of her inability to inauthentically express some social niceties. Whether it's because she doesn't have the habits, the skills, or the desire, I don't know for sure, but I do know that she often isn't aware that she's offending people. At least that's been the case with my husband. I think she could have used a lot more reminders.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

I would like to reiterate that I have not embarassed my child by reminding him of the social custom of thanking gift-givers. I know this because he is old enough to tell me so, and he does tell me when I embarass him or hurt his feelings (happened tonight, in fact.







). He does not feel shamed. I think it's important to be sensitive to these things, and certainly every child is different in this respect. I just do not agree with the assertion that those of us who occasionally remind our children to say 'thank you' are choosing to shame them. Clearly my approach with my child is not shameful. I don't consider it a 'fault' to forget the polite customary response, so I'm not 'drawing attention to a fault'. I am gently guiding, just like I do in a million other ways every day. People-pleasing is not more important to be than authenticity, but like I stated in my earlier post, there is a balance to be found.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I also wouldn't want someone to tell me to keep my voice down in a restaurant, or to ask that I hold their hand in a parking lot or be carried, or...I am not a child, and my child is not an adult.
I think this comment pretty much says it all.

I agree with what scubamama and aira say completely.

Furthermore, in a situation of one or the other, I would rather have my child be genuinely rude, than be polite but comepletely fake. Of course, no one wants a rude child, but what I don't want more, is a child who feels they have to lie or be fake, or insincere to be accepted.

Believe me, my child will learn how "the real world" works. This discussion seems to be a justification for so many parenting things ..."I have to do this with my child because when they get out into the REAL world, they won't know how to do anything!"

Give your kids some credit. Believe me, my child will know at a young age that people expect thank yous and pleases and such, soley based on observing the world around her and the way we model sincere feelings. She will also know by the reactions or dissaproving looks of others that doing rude things is generally frowned upon. Of course we will discuss these things with her so she can avoid that if she chooses, but children are a heck of a lot smarter and more observant that a lot of people give them credit for.

Maybe it is just me, but I cannot stand insincere sentiments. I would rather the person not say it at all.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
If I misunderstood, then what is it that you do want for your child? I got that you value authenicity, but not over people-pleasing.

If people-pleasing is more important to you than authenticity, then we'll just have to differ on this. I'm being authentic here, I understand you don't find it pleasant.

So what's the difference between "people-pleasing" and respect? Where do you draw the line?

This summer my 6 yo nephew told his mother that the dinner my step-mom had made was "gross" when we all sat down to dinner. Authentic? Yes. Respectful? Not in my opinion. And I would wager that most people would think, "That child is an authentic brat." And I think that matters. We're social animals. Like it or not, we rely on others, and children form their opinions of themselves based partly on their interactions with others. If they know how to "please people", as you put it, or treat people respectfully, they're going to get that back, and their lives will be much easier.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I guess my point is, I am not raising a 6 year old not to say dinner is gross. Hopefully, I will be raising a 16 year old who knows not to say that, or a 26 year old who won't say that to her future in-laws or whatever. The impulsive, blunt honesty of a 6 year old makes me laugh more than anything...even if they had said it about my own dinner. I guess I just don't get all hurt and bent out of shape by like, 6 year olds. Sure, it was not a very nice thing to say and it isn't as if I would *hope* my daughter would say that... but at the same time, what is the recourse? Punishing her or shaming her or yelling at her at the table? How does that help? Correcting her or sending her to another room to eat alone, or giving her a nasty look and scoling her in the car later? I mean what would be the action taken if my daughter happened to say something like that? (again, not that I would be all happy if she did).

Personally, I would probably have said something like "Well, I happen to like so and so's dinner and think it is delicious (provided I did)...." and if I said anything to my child, it would be in private -- " I know you don't care for peas, but maybe next time we can think of a different way to express that to Aunt sally" or whatever.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I guess my point is, I am not raising a 6 year old not to say dinner is gross. Hopefully, I will be raising a 16 year old who knows not to say that, or a 26 year old who won't say that to her future in-laws or whatever. The impulsive, blunt honesty of a 6 year old makes me laugh more than anything...even if they had said it about my own dinner. I guess I just don't get all hurt and bent out of shape by like, 6 year olds. Sure, it was not a very nice thing to say and it isn't as if I would *hope* my daughter would say that... but at the same time, what is the recourse? Punishing her or shaming her or yelling at her at the table? How does that help? Correcting her or sending her to another room to eat alone, or giving her a nasty look and scoling her in the car later?

All right, first of all, no one here has advocated anything like this. At least I didn't hear anyone saying that. This is a GD board, after all. So I think this comment is irrelevant.

And besides, he's not my kid, so I didn't do anything, and neither did my brother or SIL. Their policy is to completely ignore any behavior they don't like, but this kid could use a little more coaching, as could some other children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Personally, I would probably have said something like "Well, I happen to like so and so's dinner and think it is delicious (provided I did)....

So what if you thought it was gross, too? What if this woman, recently married to my father, who was trying very hard to find her place in our family and get along with everyone, made something you thought was gross while you were in her home and served it to you? Then wouldn't you agree it would me okay to be authentic?

I don't think anyone got hurt or bent out of shape, but I think that it was a little bit obnoxious, especially because my stepmother had been waiting on the grandkids all day long and had made the entire dinner for 12 people without anyone's help so that the rest of us could ride with my dad. And I do think that children can hurt people's feelings. Not everyone thinks it's cute when they have terrible manners. In fact, I would guess few people do, from the comments I've heard.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

So how about "the look" ? The private correction between mother and child where not a word is spoken but the child is reminded to say "thank you" or "please" or to keep their mouth shut about the horrible dinner aunt Suzy just cooked.

It surprises me to no end how many people think it is more important for their child to be 100% honest and "authentic" even if it means being rude than being polite for politeness sake. My kids can be as authentic as the day is long in appropriate situations and with people who love them unconditionally. But when they go out in the world I expect them to follow the social customs and be polite and say the correct things. then they can come home and say anythign they want about that itchy sweater that they thanked grandma kindly for or the horrible dinner that they politely refused by stating that they ate before coming over.
Where did this value come about where anybody thinks it is actually GOOD thing for anybody to ONLY say things when they truly and profoundly feel them rather than because they are the appropriate things to say? Where social skills and manners and behavior all are unimportant when it comes to unblinking honesty and "authenticity".?
And why would anybody think it is an either or proposition. That if a person learns to say "thank you" when they receive a gift regardless of gratitude, that somehow they fail to learn about genuine gratitude as is implied in the statement

Quote:

What's the problem with allowing them to develop authentic gratitude and authentic empathy?
Nobody is denying their child the opportunity to develop authentic gratitude or empathy by teaching manners.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Raise your hand if you are personally working on living gracefully in a state of inner peace, love for fellow humans, and gratitude for life...

(Sounds to me like most here are...)

Me too! I am!! I can thank Aunt Betty for a yucky meal without being insincere. Because I really do appreciate that she provided for us.

That's what I will foster in DS. More accurately, I trust him implicity to achieve it himself if I stay out of his way. Then he can also thank Aunt Betty _and mean it too_.

---

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
And why would anybody think it is an either or proposition. That if a person learns to say "thank you" when they receive a gift regardless of gratitude, that somehow they fail to learn about genuine gratitude as is implied in the statement

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
What's the problem with allowing them to develop authentic gratitude and authentic empathy?

Nobody is denying their child the opportunity to develop authentic gratitude or empathy by teaching manners.

We covered this part a while back... I go look for some quotes...

ETA: Well, there's too much to quote easily, but this was discussed back starting at the end of the 1st page, and a lot on the second page. My points on this particular aspect of the discussion can be found in post #28...

HTH.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
So what's the difference between "people-pleasing" and respect? Where do you draw the line?

people-pleasing = phoney, repressive of self

respect = honest commnication of genuine love, gratitude, etc..., strengthens authentic self


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

The impulsive, blunt honesty of a 6 year old makes me laugh more than anything...even if they had said it about my own dinner. I guess I just don't get all hurt and bent out of shape by like, 6 year olds.
Okay, I never said I thought it was cute when children hurt people's feelings. I was speaking only in the context of myself, that if a 6 year old said the dinner I made was gross I would probably laugh inwardly, thinking, well heck, at least the kid's honest. That is just me.

When I was very overdue and we were eating at a local diner, a little girl was walking into the bathroom as I was walking out. She was about 5 I would say. Well, she turns to her mom, her eyes big as saucers and said "wow mama, that lady has a BIGGGGGG belly!!!" Was she being rude or just making an observation? Well, I took it as the honest observation of a small child and I laughed. I bent down and said to her, "My belly is big because I am growing a baby in there!" She asked a couple of questions and wanted to feel my stomach. Her mother looked SO freaking relieved because I am sure she was expecting a dirty look and for me to think her daughter was so rude and whatnot. I didn't.

Same goes for children who say things are gross or whatever. I guess I just give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to them not having the impulse control or the right words at the moment to express that they don't like peas or whatever. I don't come to it as if the child is a rude brat who is hell bent on hurting feelings. It is all about perspective.

Yes, I want our daughter to learn manners and appropriate social behavior. I am hoping to accomplish this by the time she gets old enough to be out in the world through modeling, everyday discussion, and her own personal observations about the world and about how people respond positively or negatively based on the words and actions she uses. I don't expect this to be accomplished at 6 years old. I would much rather foster and support authenticity in her words and actions FIRST, and worry about pleasing others in a social situation second.

No one is saying I would be congratulating her and turning cartwheels if she said someone's dinner was gross. Of course I don't want her to knowingly hurt someone's feelings or be *rude* or whatever....but I am not going to force anything, or "gently remind" in public, or whatever. I am perfectly content to model and to pick up the slack (so to speak) while she is little, by apologizing or thanking for her in her presence rather than reminding her to do it in front of people or giving her a look or whatever.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Not sure I have anything "nice" to say at this point; sometimes, I choose not to say anything at all. But, I am choosing it, not being prompted/reminded or given a "look" by anyone attempting to control me to meet their *expectations* of my behavior.







Sometimes, I don't keep my opinion to myself and I am willing to accept the consequences of that too. I just don't impose consequences on our child in order to modify his behavior. He is observant enough to choose whether he considers it "gross" enough to say something or not, just as I do. And we learn portable skills quickly when we rely on our own observations and experience the accountability of Real Life to teach us manners. The process of others attempting to control how we "should" act, diminishes personal responsibility for our own actions.

***Not in an imposed "logical consequences" sort of way, but in a non-correcting, non-punitive means of not interfering with safe learning opportunities. Children learn manners through observation without being pressured to perform to standards established by parents. The _reactions of others_ provides ample catalyst to choose their behavior independently. Children are learning all the time. Directing their behavior 'to social customs, be polite and say the correct things' eliminates opportunities to choose accountability for one owns choices.

Accountability and authenticity are important values for me to avoid interrupting our son from having opportunities to learn. More of a priority than interrupting his _possible_ rudeness. But, sometimes, there is no "nice" way to point that out. Yes, honesty and personal accountability are the cornerstones of choice. Not everyone wants to accept the consequences of their own choices. When we remove the opportunities to experience the consequences of the impact of our own actions on others, we lose the potential to learn *why* rudeness matters. (Especially if someone is rude while "teaching" when rudeness matters.







)

Pat


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
We covered this part a while back... I go look for some quotes...

ETA: Well, there's too much to quote easily, but this was discussed back starting at the end of the 1st page, and a lot on the second page. My points on this particular aspect of the discussion can be found in post #28...

HTH.

Yes I read that and here is what was said

Quote:

Either he will resent being made to express thoughts that are not his, or he'll just do it and his ability to actually foster feelings of gratitude will be hampered. Maybe both. The point is that language usage helps form our thinking patterns, and misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way - like having actual gratitude.
Which is not really an explanation but a restatement of your position. You say here that it hampers feelings of gratitude. You also say that misused language clutters and harms our ability to think a certain way.
But this is not an explanation, it is simply your postulate reworded.
Why and how is this postualte true? I do not believe it to be so at all.
A restatement of something you believe to be true is not the same thing as answering the queston "but why?" or "how".
And so when I read statements like that, I still can read the whole thread and feel like the question "how" was never truly answered.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I have gone through a lengthy process of answering these questions for myself. It requires digging very deep into your own psyche and challenging all your assuptions. If it's important enough to you, I suppose you will have to do similar.

If you're looking for a starting point, as I suggested earlier, Alice ******. Noam Chomsky writes about the linguistic pathways formed by our experiences - you can sift through his political opinions if they don't suit you. Jean Liedloff gives some ideas about challenging our suppositions of humans and culture.

But you have to answer "how" for yourself, if you're so inclined. Just feel it.

Or you can ignore it all and just not like what I have to say. That's fine too. But trying to over-intellectualize deep feelings is counterproductive, so I won't get into a weird discussion like that...


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm just really done with this discussion. I've laid out my thoughts pretty clearly, and I'm too tired today to do it anymore...

Good luck, all.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I continue to be bewildered by the concept that other people know when *other people's children* are embarrassed. Even when other posters say they specifically asked their kids and the kids say they do not find such reminders embarrassing! Can't we recognize that embarrassment is a complex emotion and that different people feel it at very different times and in different ways? If I begin to notice that my child seems embarrassed or upset by "manners reminders," I will certainly reassess the way I handle the situation.

Anyway, yes, I believe in the value of standard manners, being kind to others even when it is not "authentic," (do you let your kids hit other people when they authentically want to?) and an occasional little white lie. If this makes me a GD failure--c'est la vie. There are other matters I find far more pressing and significant in my GD strivings.

It would of course be wonderful if all of us, including our small children, reached an enlightened state of omni-gratitude towards others such that we all automatically felt total gratitude even for unwanted gifts or misguided kind gestures. I think this is asking an awful lot of my child, though--it's asking a lot of me, as an adult. Therefore, in order to help my child make her way through the world, I will continue to teach her about politeness and expressing gratitude. As she gets older, I anticipate an eventual conversation about the "little white lie" and about rare occasions when lying is okay. (Think of a surprise party, for instance.) I think it is very possible to teach a child to honor his/her authenticity while keeping it muted under some circumstances. I will certainly explain WHY we thank others for things we don't like and why we don't call a meal someone has worked hard on "gross."

Perhaps some of you here are never inauthentic about anything, ever. I would not get along well in the world if I was not occasionally inauthentic. For instance, to give a common and very relevant example, I am not terribly fond of my mother-in-law, for various reasons. Do I behave authentically when she annoys the daylights out of me in unimportant ways? I do not. Obviously, if she crossed some line (say, if she spoke to DD roughly or something) I would speak up, but I am not talking about "big" things here--just the little things people do that make you want to scream. If I DID scream, I don't think such "authenticity" would be very helpful to my family or my child.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I have gone through a lengthy process of answering these questions for myself. It requires digging very deep into your own psyche and challenging all your assuptions. If it's important enough to you, I suppose you will have to do similar.

If you're looking for a starting point, as I suggested earlier, Alice ******. Noam Chomsky writes about the linguistic pathways formed by our experiences - you can sift through his political opinions if they don't suit you. Jean Liedloff gives some ideas about challenging our suppositions of humans and culture.

But you have to answer "how" for yourself, if you're so inclined. Just feel it.

Or you can ignore it all and just not like what I have to say. That's fine too. But trying to over-intellectualize deep feelings is counterproductive, so I won't get into a weird discussion like that...

I completely get this. It is more of an internal truth you have arrived at rather than something that can be put convincingly in simple terms.
Thank you for your explanation


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
***Not in an imposed "logical consequences" sort of way, but in a non-correcting, non-punitive means of not interfering with safe learning opportunities. Children learn manners through observation without being pressured to perform to standards established by parents. The _reactions of others_ provides ample catalyst to choose their behavior independently. Children are learning all the time. Directing their behavior 'to social customs, be polite and say the correct things' eliminates opportunities to choose accountability for one owns choices.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Yes, some children pick up on social customs all on their own. Some children are very extroverted, people-oriented social butterflies. I know one. I have seen her quickly evaluate social situations and choose the appropriate behavior. She probably needs little to no coaching, it's inherent to her.

However, I believe that our social customs are much more inscrutable to other children, and need more explanation. My nephew, for example. He is not particularly socially aware. He is "inner-directed", and does not often realize that he might be hurting other people's feelings. I have seen him playing with his friends and cousins, and it is obvious that he is ostracized and often disliked, and this in turn frustrates him greatly. My brother and his wife never say anything to him about it. I think they are doing him a disservice by witholding this knowledge from him, knowledge he is clearly having a very hard time acquiring on his own.

I think it would be much, much kinder to occasionally pull him aside and say, "You know, it seems like X doesn't like to be told how to put the Legos together. Why don't you try just watching him and not instructing him?" or "It could really hurt someone's feelings if you told them what they had cooked for you was gross. In the future, I expect you to just refuse it politely. Can you think of some ways to do that?" etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Accountability and authenticity are important values for me to avoid interrupting our son from having opportunities to learn. More of a priority than interrupting his _possible_ rudeness. But, sometimes, there is no "nice" way to point that out. Yes, honesty and personal accountability are the cornerstones of choice. Not everyone wants to accept the consequences of their own choices. When we remove the opportunities to experience the consequences of the impact of our own actions on others, we lose the potential to learn *why* rudeness matters. (Especially if someone is rude while "teaching" when rudeness matters.







)

So if your son was consistently making a poor choice that you knew would result in heartache for him, it would be more important to let him make that choice unfettered than risk embarassing him with your advice/correction?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

:

I completely agree. Maybe my take on this is partly because I suspect my daughter is going to be like your nephew. She is very, very inner-directed and while outgoing and friendly, does not pick up on social cues the way some children do. (For instance, some two-year-olds will attempt to comfort someone who is hurt or sad; mine would never do this. Not in her nature right now.) Also, my own nephew--the one who throws gifts down and makes faces--has had a LOT of trouble making and keeping friends. I'm pretty sure his parents' total lack of interest in cultivating his social "IQ" has something to do with that.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

natensarah - the case of your nephew seems to be different than what we are talking about on here...at least i thought we were just talking about our general policies on teaching manners from an early age. i would hope that most of us would intervene if we saw our children suffering and being ostracized for antisocial behavior...maybe i'm wrong...but i know that wasn't the scenario i was talking about when i replied.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i also think that it's possible to teach social graces without demanding pat answers on the spot.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

I just read a beautifully-characterized novel - one of the characters was a woman who was unfailingly "authentic" to herself - always absolutely true to herself and honored her own feelings. Never hesitated to tell "the brutal truth" regardless of the pain she caused. Other characters, traumatized by her merciless tongue, always fell back on the "Well, but she is always HONEST, and that's valuable." The problem ... she was in fact a compulsive liar, because lying was a convenient way to honor her AUTHENTIC DESIRES.

This little story is kindof tangential, I know, but illustrates something being discussed here. "Authenticity" is something I think all GD mamas honor. But sometimes kids AUTHENTICALLY want to have their way at all costs - be selfish - to hit, to snatch, whatever. At some point, for most kids, modeling niceness won't be enough. Empathy often needs to be developed and nurtured. Is that compromising their (absolutely authentic) self-centeredness? Yeah, I think it is. I also think it's something we MUST do to raise our little ones well.

Bottom line, I think complete unfailing "authenticity to one's own self" is a nice way of saying "complete narcissism" or even "sociopathy." I think we do our little ones no favors if we teach them to put their desires first every time. Like the Mexican proverb says, "If you raise crows, they'll pick out your eyes." And I KNOW that empathy, including the social graces, can be taught without trauma in more ways than one.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Bottom line, I think complete unfailing "authenticity to one's own self" is a nice way of saying "complete narcissism" or even "sociopathy."
Wow. I disagree with that on so many levels it is almost not worth getting into. Your post strikes me as coming from the perspective that children can be inately bad or evil or selfish. I don't agree with that sentiment AT ALL. I believe any *selfishness* small children display is merely them wanting to fufill a need or desire and not fully understanding the impact on others. In other words, I don't think a child thinks like an adult would in the respect that they are willing to get what they want at any cost or pain to others around them (like some adults do).

How does forcing a child who doesn't feel something to lie about what they are feeling to recieve positive re-enforcement from a bigger person teaching any kind of empathy or authenticity? Or are you saying that authenticity to one's feelings and emotions a bad thing?

I get the feeling that some people in this thread really just want to be viewed as parents who have a polite child. It doesn't matter if the child doesn't like the gift, hates the meal, the sweater itches, or whatever...as long as they smile on cue and say thank you and make the person feel good, the person can look at the parents and think "why what a wonderful job those parents are doing...little johnny says thank you so nicely."

I let that go a long time ago. Yes, in a bizarro world where other people's judgements dictate how I raise my child, my 5 year old would be genuinely thankful for everything she recieves and have the capacity of realizing that loving sentiment matters as much as the gift and that there are people in the world who have less than us and that my parenting of her is judged on how well she can behave....but that ain't happening (not completely, at 5 anyway) and that is okay.

I am convinced, and have so much faith in the pureness of my little girl's heart and spirit and mind, that she will observe the world around her, observe our modeling, our frank, open discussions about anything and everything, and in most instances, act accordingly...and when and if she doesn't...other people will have to be a little less self obsorbed and realize it is not about them and that my daughter is not a performing monkey who says the right things on cue at all times. And I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I get the feeling that some people in this thread really just want to be viewed as parents who have a polite child. It doesn't matter if the child doesn't like the gift, hates the meal, the sweater itches, or whatever...as long as they smile on cue and say thank you and make the person feel good, the person can look at the parents and think "why what a wonderful job those parents are doing...little johnny says thank you so nicely."

So don't you think children notice how people respond to them? Do you think children like it when they notice people responding in a negative way to them? Or if they don't notice the cues at all and are continually frustrated by their inability to relate to people? Or is it all about the parent looking good?

AND, for the record, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with a child smiling on cue and saying thank you and making the person feel good. Making a person feels good. Learning that you dcan put aside your discomfort temporarily and that you can put another person's feelings first feels good, too. In fact, it's one of the most important things I want my children to learn.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I am convinced, and have so much faith in the pureness of my little girl's heart and spirit and mind, that she will observe the world around her, observe our modeling, our frank, open discussions about anything and everything, and in most instances, act accordingly...and when and if she doesn't...other people will have to be a little less self obsorbed and realize it is not about them and that my daughter is not a performing monkey who says the right things on cue at all times. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

Well, I'm not sure that other five year olds, seven year olds, nine year olds, etc. are going to be able to be less self absorbed and realize its all about my daughter or son. And I don't expect that I will be there to mediate all this. So I want to equip them with the social skills they need, and when they grow up they can decide how to use them.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
Bottom line, I think complete unfailing "authenticity to one's own self" is a nice way of saying "complete narcissism" or even "sociopathy." I think we do our little ones no favors if we teach them to put their desires first every time. Like the Mexican proverb says, "If you raise crows, they'll pick out your eyes." And I KNOW that empathy, including the social graces, can be taught without trauma in more ways than one.

You have beautifully said here what I have felt, but not had the "nerve" to say.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I get the feeling that some people in this thread really just want to be viewed as parents who have a polite child. It doesn't matter if the child doesn't like the gift, hates the meal, the sweater itches, or whatever...as long as they smile on cue and say thank you and make the person feel good, the person can look at the parents and think "why what a wonderful job those parents are doing...little johnny says thank you so nicely.".

YOu have this only slightly off. I think most of us want our CHILDREN to be viewed as polite for their own sake becaues it is an excellent quality to have and foster. I do want my children to be perceived as polite. But not because it makes ME look good. Because it makes THEM look good.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Hey captain crunchy - Sorry the post struck you the wrong way. I didn't mean my comment about "undiluted 'authenticity' = selfishness" to apply to CHILDREN, actually. I was talking about ADULTS - should have made that clear.

Quote:

Your post strikes me as coming from the perspective that children can be inately bad or evil or selfish. I don't agree with that sentiment AT ALL. I believe any *selfishness* small children display is merely them wanting to fufill a need or desire and not fully understanding the impact on others.
First, no! no! no! I absolutely *don't* believe human nature is innately bad or evil. But selfishness ... it's a very tricky area. All kids go through a period of self-centeredness, you'd agree with that, right? And some kids are naturally very empathetic, and their self-centerdness is a stage they easily pass through. But every child also has their own vivid personality ... some are not so sensitive to observing others, some have a real hard time developing empathy. And there are things like Asperger's which complicate things.

My personal passage through life involves trying to walk the Buddhist path, which has me trying to disassociate my "first impulse" (what you could call a "purely authentic" response") from the *right thing to do*. I see a stinky homeless guy outside the market, honestly, my first impulse is to pretend not to see him. But I try to modulate that "authentic" response by checking in and trying to honestly assess what the best thing to do is. Or another example - I'm naturally a sarcastic person, and I'm trying to become a person who doesn't use language to hurt others. It means not being "authentic" to some, but I don't feel it's false, and i sure don't feel my nature is evil or flawed.

So that's MY struggle as an adult. But i believe children, at some stage, need to go through a really similar process - you have your first impulse, maybe to grab the gift and run off without a 'thank you' or maybe to hit that kid or take his trike. Just because it's your innate response don't make it the best resonse. I've been priveleged to help raise 2 kids to early adulthood (now 19 and 22) and one was just naturally empathetic, naturally considerate, and modelling was really all he ever needed to become a truly *courteous* child - even as a toddler. His sister is a different person; she needed modelling, and verbal guidance, and to really have empathy explained situation by situation. Things like, "Don't have gramma come for Christmas! She's too fat and ugly!" Not polite, not kind at age 8. I would call that "authentic" but also "selfish." And we didn't feel that kind of statement should be honored. Ya know, they are both AMAZING, caring, considerate, giving, beautiful adults now, lights of my life. But their paths to that adulthood was different, and involved more than just supporting their every innate impulse.

You know, as I write, I realize I'm thinking more of "how do we/should we teach consideration?" rather than "how do we/should we teach MANNERS?" Which I know is the thread topic, really, but I guess I feel that the courtesy that matters comes from consideration. Pro-forma mumbling "please, thank you" doesn't seem very valuable to me.

I do see how poorly written my earlier post was, too. I was putting "authenticity" in quotes because i think sometimes it CAN be a way for adults to justify their selfishness. "Sorry honey, I was unfaithful because I really had to be authentic to my desires." But it's an important word. For me, being truly authentic to my best self is what I'm trying to do on my Buddhist path.

Sorry, i know this is muddled, but I wanted to clarify and further the discussion and I'm nursing my babe at the same time! Hope it makes some sense anyway.


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

I hate to interupt, but i wonder if veronique(who originally posted this thread) got the answer she was looking for!It sure has turned into quite a discussion! LOL


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
YOu have this only slightly off. I think most of us want our CHILDREN to be viewed as polite for their own sake becaues it is an excellent quality to have and foster. I do want my children to be perceived as polite. But not because it makes ME look good. Because it makes THEM look good.

so if it makes THEM look good in the eyes of OTHERS to lie to grandma and say her itchy sweater is fantastic, that's priority #1? i think that there's a middle ground. you can be honest without a blanket "thank you". if you're talking about an older child here (which I hope you are, because if you're talking about 2year olds then I can't really think of much else to say other than "no"), then he or she will be able to grasp the concept that Grandma did a nice thing for me, and even though I think the sweater sucks and is ugly, i am thankful that I have a Grandma that loves me so much she'd knit something for me. gratitude can be a complex thing for a little kid, and i think that it behooves us as parents to help them untangle it. simply forcing them to put on a smile and say "thanks" no matter what crap is placed before them isn't really helping much, imo. far better for me to accept the fact that sometimes they're gonna receive crap or are gonna be disappointed and have to show those emotions or feel those emotions in a productive way. i don't intend to ever sweep those *authentic* feelings under the rug to placate someone else's ego. i will always encourage manners and politeness, but not at the risk of keeping my children out of touch with how they *actually* feel or out of touch with what it *really* means to feel thankful or grateful.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kira's mom*
I hate to interupt, but i wonder if veronique(who originally posted this thread) got the answer she was looking for!It sure has turned into quite a discussion! LOL

LOL probably not. seems like many are advocating for the kind of thing that her SIL is doing, which is exactly what she sees as NOT working for their family. oh well.


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

I do not see why finding something nice to say has to be "fake" or "untruthful". Why can't we teach our children that? That's what good manners are. It's not necessary to NOT thank someone at all, or to make up a lie, in order to be polite, or avoid hurting someones feelings.

What's wrong with telling someone "Your dress is a pretty color, (or your eyes, or whatever)", rather than saying "*your perfume stinks*" or "*you're sure fat*"? Can't we find ONE nice thing to say about another human being without lying?

Is it phoney to tell someone that gives you a wool sweater but you hate wearing wool "Thank you for the sweater. You must have put a lot of work into making it, and I really appreciate your thoughfulness". Or, "Thanks for the sweater. It's a beautiful shade of blue", rather than "*I hate wool sweaters*"? Can't we find ONE good thing to say about a gift without lying?


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyrDawn*
I do not see why finding something nice to say has to be "fake" or "untruthful". Why can't we teach our children that? That's what good manners are. It's not necessary to NOT thank someone at all, or to make up a lie, in order to be polite, or avoid hurting someones feelings.

What's wrong with telling someone "Your dress is a pretty color, (or your eyes, or whatever)", rather than saying "*your perfume stinks*" or "*you're sure fat*"? Can't we find ONE nice thing to say about another human being without lying?

Is it phoney to tell someone that gives you a wool sweater but you hate wearing wool "Thank you for the sweater. You must have put a lot of work into making it, and I really appreciate your thoughfulness". Or, "Thanks for the sweater. It's a beautiful shade of blue", rather than "*I hate wool sweaters*"? Can't we find ONE good thing to say about a gift without lying?


Thank you. Very good.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

yyyyyeah, i think that was sort of my point...that we have to help our children learn how to interpret and express gratitude...that it isn't just about forcing them to use pat answers like "thank you" no matter what. which is why when they're very little (2.5yo like my son), i don't believe in just teaching them to use those words as rote memorization. he's too young to understand the nuances that you and i both mentioned, so i don't enforce the blanket "thank you" no matter what.

that being said, my son *does* say thank you, please, you're welcome, i'm sorry, etc...at the "appropriate" times because we have modeled the behavior. i have never once in his entire life asked him to say any of those things. he picked it up on his own. and if he hadn't, i still wouldn't enforce it. when he's older we'll talk about why we say thank you even if we don't like the gift, we'll talk about how we can make others feel good and how that makes us feel good, etc...but at 2yo when we're just starting out? no, there is no point.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
so if it makes THEM look good in the eyes of OTHERS to lie to grandma and say her itchy sweater is fantastic, that's priority #1? .

Well I was respondong to a post about parents looking good so that was the context of which I spoke. And not what is #1 priority.
The #1 priority (in the context of manners) is for my children to BE good. And naturally if they are good, they will look good in the eyes of others. But seriously I dont care if others are even around or not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
i think that there's a middle ground. you can be honest without a blanket "thank you". if you're talking about an older child here (which I hope you are, because if you're talking about 2year olds then I can't really think of much else to say other than "no"), then he or she will be able to grasp the concept that Grandma did a nice thing for me, and even though I think the sweater sucks and is ugly, i am thankful that I have a Grandma that loves me so much she'd knit something for me. gratitude can be a complex thing for a little kid, and i think that it behooves us as parents to help them untangle it. simply forcing them to put on a smile and say "thanks" no matter what crap is placed before them isn't really helping much, imo. far better for me to accept the fact that sometimes they're gonna receive crap or are gonna be disappointed and have to show those emotions or feel those emotions in a productive way. i don't intend to ever sweep those *authentic* feelings under the rug to placate someone else's ego. i will always encourage manners and politeness, but not at the risk of keeping my children out of touch with how they *actually* feel or out of touch with what it *really* means to feel thankful or grateful.

I think the act of learning the correct response is a separate act from experiencing gratitude or empathy. These are two separate skills.
I do not teach my children to say thank you in order to teach them to be grateful I teach them to say Thank You in order to teach them to be kind and the appropriate way to respond under certain circumstances.
We learn about the nature of our feeling and gratitude or empathy etc. . . when we are no longer in the moment.
And I do not think delaying an authentic response for an appropriate time and place is sweeping them "under the rug" or out of touch with emotions in any way.
But I do agree that "Thank You" becomes a bit of a canned response. But all that means is that when we truly are grateful we find a way to go above and beyond that in a personal way to really express our true feelings of gratitude.
Joline


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

OK. I really want out of this discussion (b/c I'm exhauted from puking all weekend), but I just can't let this pass.

Please someone point out just where on this thread _anyone_ advocated either leaving a child akwardly unable to navigate social situations without guidance, or that they be allowed to be rude little hellions who turn into narcissist or sociopaths?

Really! You are being absurd by implying that anyone is suggesting we let that happen to our DC. Are you guys actually _reading_ the posts here?










Geez!


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
But in the broadest sense, I think these requests could be called coercive, unless you do not have any follow-through if your child does not do as you suggest. (I.e, child continues to spit, and you ignore this.) I still don't see why it is okay to gently guide children to behave in socially acceptable ways in some situations (being quiet in a restaurant) but not in others (saying thank you for an unliked gift).

Coercive? Is it "coercive" to teach our children it's not OK to hurt other peoples feelings or in a physical way? Let me ask you this, what would your "follow though" be is someone else's child was spitting on you over and over, when you were in a situation from which you couldn't just get up and move away? How about if that child was hitting you hard enough to hurt you again and again?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I have been staying out of this because I know it is a sinking boat BUT.....

All I see here is scrambling scrambling scrambling "yeah buts...." over and over. I do not feel like I should make my dd say anything, ever....whether it be to be "polite", "smart", "witty", "cute", etc...... People learn how to be those things IF they want to by observing their surroundings, testing, asking questions, etc.... If my dd was disappointed in the reactions of other people, I am hoping she will have the trust in me (or another trusted human) to ask to help her. Remarkably, despite the fact that I do not put her on the spot with "say thank you to grandma", she is already quite sensitive to social customs. Not 100%, but neither am I....and somehow I have been able to live in the world and be considered appropiately polite.

My feelings are very similar to Aira's. I came to these conclusions about my realtionship with my dd through long and deep thought and no, I cannot summarize it any clearer than what has already been stated. I used to be on the other side of the fence about these issues. I was great with the "yeah, buts" but somehow I figured out that they all lead to the same destination when I think deep enough. Yes, it is easier and "gratifying" to ME when dd appears perefect and grown up. But that is MY issue. She needs to decide for herself how to navigate the world of manners (and everything else) to her own preference. I really feel that is the ONLY way to make her comfortable and true to herself as she prepares herself to make her own way in the world.

I find it interesting that people state they have bigger GD issues to worry about than this and feel like they are wasting thier time justifying why they feel the need to coach thier children. I do not see any bigger issues. They all boil down to the same thing. Either you allow your kids to learn things with your support and help (when asked) or you attempted to "make" them do what you think is right (however gently you try and paint the picture). If you are comfortable on either side, then why the argument?

And I still find it amusing that people think that they either must "do to" their kids or they will be rude heathens. The rudest behavior I have ever seem form kids are the ones with parents that seem to constantly be "working on it". Coincidence? I think not.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I see a lot of people basically saying if they don't force their children to do things, namely say thank you when a crappy gift is presented, that their children will grow up with absolutely no empathy or understanding of gratitude or any social graces at all.

That is not giving children a lot of credit in my opinion.

I have the uttmost faith that my daughter will be able to observe the world around her and act accordingly based on how she has observed the world working, how she has observed the way we live, and our open discussions on all subjects including manners.

One thing that hasn't been brought up... what about how rude it is for someone to get you a gift they know your child won't like? Is the gift really for the child or for the gift giver who has ignored your child's interests and your own gentle requests?

For example, say you don't have plastic toys in your home. Everyone pretty much knows this. You aren't cool with your child recieving a plastic piece of junk that induces seizures practically by its lights and music. Aunt Sally knows this but buys your child a piece of plastic junk SHE wants your child to have instead of the wooden blocks that your child has expressed interest in (which cost $10 less than the plastic junk and that your child would enjoy more) because SHE thinks it is a boring toy? See, that is rude to me and I don't think my child should have to be embarrassed and nudged and forced to say thank you because Aunt Sally was "thinking" of him and how considerate, when she was really thinking of herself.

Now in the spirit of politeness, I would probably thank her for her thought, but I would not expect my child to say thank you or express gratitude at something that they didn't like or didn't want-- especially at a very young age. As michelemiller pointed out, 2, 3, 4 year olds aren't going to get the complexities of gratitude, they know what they like and if they like it, they are grateful...if they don't like it, they pretty much aren't. I am okay with that. I don't think it is a failing of mine or my child's that they don't sing-song a canned, "thank youuu" without emotion... like a parrot on cue.

I may even go as far to say to my child something like "wow, I think it was really nice of Aunt Sally to think of you...." (then to Aunt Sally) "thank you Sally!"....

Observations of gratitude in this respect (imo) is how children learn and start to grasp the difference between liking the gift or thanking the gifter for the thought even if they don't like the gift.

I don't think my child is going to be like, 20 years old with absolutely no idea how the outside world works because I didn't force an embarassed, stammered, fake, parroted "thank you" so people would think they were polite and by extension, that I was a wonderful parent.


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
OK. I really want out of this discussion (b/c I'm exhauted from puking all weekend), but I just can't let this pass.

Please someone point out just where on this thread _anyone_ advocated either leaving a child akwardly unable to navigate social situations without guidance, or that they be allowed to be rude little hellions who turn into narcissist or sociopaths?

Really! You are being absurd by implying that anyone is suggesting we let that happen to our DC. Are you guys actually _reading_ the posts here?









Geez!









Who said anyone was allowing their children to be rude little hellions who turn into narcissist or sociopaths? Sociopaths? Isn't that getting just a bit carried away?

I know more than one adult that can't hold down a decent job or keep friends because they lack any social graces. I think we do a disservice to our children when we allow them to turn out like that.

And, they don't have to be "forced" to help them learn good manners and empathy.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

WEll I dont know about anybody else, but I see a heck of a lot of adults who do not have these skills.
By that evidence alone I have to say that for me and my family, just trusting tht they will figure it out for themselves based on what they see me do and the reactions of others just isnt good enough for me.
If it were so that all kids just magically figure it out as long as they witness mom being kind and polite to others, then we woudl have a far more courteous world out there than we do currently have.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I really feel that is the ONLY way to make her comfortable and true to herself as she prepares herself to make her own way in the world.

I find it interesting that people state they have bigger GD issues to worry about than this and feel like they are wasting thier time justifying why they feel the need to coach thier children. I do not see any bigger issues.

I think this sums it up nicely. I think that most of us would heartily disagree that this is the only way. And also disagree that this is our primary goal and motivation in parenting our children.
Perhaps some of us think that if we love them and teach them to be comfortable with themselves and authentic etc.. . that they will then naturally learn the skills they need to navigate the world.
Whereas others think that if we love them and teach them the skills they need to navigate the world, they will naturally learn to be comfortable with themselves and be authentic etc. . .
Interesting point.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

know more than one adult that can't hold down a decent job or keep friends because they lack any social graces. I think we do a disservice to our children *when we allow them to turn out like that.*
Wow, that statement is ridiculous to me. As if you have any control over how your child is going to conduct themselves when they get out into the world. It has been my personal observation in this world that the people who often act the most insincere and the ones with the most control issues are the ones who were forced to act the opposite of how they were feeling in childhood -- told to smile when they were sad, told to say thank you when they were not thankful, told to eat when they weren't hungry, forced to go to bed when they weren't tired etc...


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Wow, that statement is ridiculous to me. As if you have any control over how your child is going to conduct themselves when they get out into the world. It has been my personal observation in this world that the people who often act the most insincere and the ones with the most control issues are the ones who were forced to act the opposite of how they were feeling in childhood -- told to smile when they were sad, told to say thank you when they were not thankful, told to eat when they weren't hungry, forced to go to bed when they weren't tired etc...

Of course we don't have complete control over how they'll turn out, but we do have control over what we teach them. I was NOT talking about children that are being "forced" to do ANYTHING. I never used the word "forced" in my posts. I was not talking about "forcing" them to act the opposite of how they're feeling. And I didn't say anything about forcing them to smile when sad, say thank you when they aren't thankful, eat when they weren't hungry, or go to be when they weren't tired. I was talking about parents that help their children learn the social graces.

"Help" is a long way from "force".

I don't see why you think it's so wrong to help our kids learn to be gracious when someone does something nice for them. Or not deliberately hurt some one else's feelings.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Please someone point out just where on this thread _anyone_ advocated either leaving a child akwardly unable to navigate social situations without guidance, or that they be allowed to be rude little hellions who turn into narcissist or sociopaths?

Well, I kind of got the impression that a lot of mothers here thought that modeling polite manners was all children needed to develop social graces. I don't know that "modeling" = "guidance". I guess I am understanding guidance to be more direct discussion and instruction. And if you aren't willing to coerce your child into using good manners, however gently, aren't you basically allowing them to be rude? Though obviously you can't prevent your child from being rude, but I guess we're discussing one's reaction to it?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyrDawn*
Of course we don't have complete control over how they'll turn out, but we do have control over what we teach them. I was NOT talking about children that are being "forced" to do ANYTHING. I never used the word "forced" in my posts. ...

"Help" is a long way from "force".

I don't see why you think it's so wrong to help our kids learn to be gracious when someone does something nice for them. Or not deliberately hurt some one else's feelings.

Exactly, as I recall this was about gentle reminders. And expectations.
Not about force.

And I really have not noticed that those raised to respect social customs are particularly insincere.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Well, I kind of got the impression that a lot of mothers here thought that modeling polite manners was all children needed to develop social graces. I don't know that "modeling" = "guidance". I guess I am understanding guidance to be more direct discussion and instruction. And if you aren't willing to coerce your child into using good manners, however gently, aren't you basically allowing them to be rude? Though obviously you can't prevent your child from being rude, but I guess we're discussing one's reaction to it?









:
That's pretty much the impression I was getting as well.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Exactly, as I recall this was about gentle reminders. And expectations.
Not about force.

And I really have not noticed that those raised to respect social customs are particularly insincere.

OK, so a "gentle reminder" to say thank you to a person is not "forcing". But it sure puts the kid on the spot. It is at best awkward and at worst very embarrassing for the child. And do not tell me kids are not embarrassed by this. It is embarrassing (or at least awkward) for anyone to have thier mistakes pointed out in front of an audience. Guidance to me is giving the child a chance to do the polite thing and then letting it go if they don't. Then my dd watches and hears me say "Thank you so much Aunt Sally for thinking of dd". Dd is not forced or embarrassed into saying something she does not feel and she gets the opportunity to witness a way of expressing gratitude without lying or doing anything fake. Next time (or maybe a few times later) she now has the tools and models to try it out.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
OK, so a "gentle reminder" to say thank you to a person is not "forcing". But it sure puts the kid on the spot. It is at best awkward and at worst very embarrassing for the child. And do not tell me kids are not embarrassed by this. It is embarrassing (or at least awkward) for anyone to have thier mistakes pointed out in front of an audience. .

What age child are we talkign about here? I do understand that a child over say 7 or 8 is likely to feel put on the spot or embarassed once they have reached a certain age.
But I very deeply believe that children are actually lookign to parents for guidance. And are happy to get it. Children will often look to their parents for the cues for what to say. Having this experience and seeing that look in my child's eyes which says "did I do the right thing?" "Or is this the part where I say "x"" I cannot imagine that offering verbal coaching or guidance is anythign but welcome. Kind of like a hand in a busy public place.
A child who is still young enough to be looking to his or her parents for guidance is not going to be embarassed when they receive it.
Certainly it would be embarassing for me to remind my 13 year old to say "thank you" etc in public.
Joline


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Y'know, the whole conversation here was started by a mama sharing the behaviors of her nephews, who enter her house, raid the fridge, take over the TV, wipe greasy hands on the couch, etc without ever acknowledging her. In discussing ways to raise our own little ones so they do not act the same way, we've bogged down between those who say they will NEVER use language to teach consideration/courtesy, and those who say they DO use reminders and discussion to teach consideration/courtesy. Really, shouldn't we give other mamas here the courtesy of accepting that we are each experts in what's best for our OWN child? Don't we all agree that a single blanket approach is not appropriate for all kids, all places, all the time?

I never thought this coversation was about whether or not to force kids to mumble meaningless phrases on command. The OP's nephews could have "please, thank you"d the whole time and they'd STILL be rude.

I thought the conversation was about ways we instill consideration into our little ones. For some of us, that means modeling only. For some of our kids, any reminder is traumatizing. For some of our kids, reminders are just that, helpful reminders. Surely we recognize that just as children differ, chidrearing strategies differ?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

First of all, myrdawn, let me clear this up:

Quote:

Coercive? Is it "coercive" to teach our children it's not OK to hurt other peoples feelings or in a physical way?
Wait, wait--I agree with you!







I was actually playing devil's advocate in the post you're replying to here. I *don't* actually think that it's wrongly coercive to encourage a a child to say thank you, to remove a hitting child, ect etc...I was responding to those posters who seemed to be saying that guiding manners behavior was "coercive," because I couldn't see how it differed from guiding/"coercing" other behavior. Does that make sense?









johub, it has previously been said in this thread that a child who is about to turn two would be embarrassed by a "thank you" reminder (I do feel the need to reiterate that I bring it up gently and leave it at that--I do not force DD to say it, nor do I do anything if she does not say it) , so I think those making the "embarrassing" argument think no age is too young for embarrassment. (I agree with you, though. )

This was a while back, but I wanted to say that I absolutely will guide my child to try to say thank you for something she does not like by pointing out something positive about it (say, its color) rather than just "lying" (little white) and saying "Oh, I love it." I practice this myself and would certainly teach it--however, this is more a matter for thank-you notes and for later discussion. This nicety does not mean that I will not expect my child to say "Thank you" in the moment and without prompting once she is old enough to know this expectation.

And I also agree with johub that my child will be free to tell me afterwards, "I really didn't like those lima beans Aunt Judie made very much," or "This sweater Grandma made feels itchy." I certainly would not discourage truth-telling out of the earshot of the "giver." I would be happy she brought it up, in fact, so we could have this very conversation--about how sometimes we may not like the Thing itself, but we can still appreciate the intentions of the giver.

Finally, I also agree that children, while certainly not inherently "bad," are inherently self-interested. That is their "authentic" nature much of the time. It is completely authentic when my daughter hits me when she is frustrated, and you may trust me that this has never, ever been modeled to her (by anyone, in fact--she does not go to daycare, her playgroup is pretty much all non-hitters, and she has never seen violent images). It is also authentic when she snatches away another child's toy and won't give it back. All these things may be her authentic self, but that does not mean I am just going to go on letting her do them while hoping that my modeling of preferable behaviors will be sufficient. I think that is inadequate, and sets the child up for failure. I believe the "modeling without requesting" model of teaching manners and consideration to be similarly inadequate.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

So then no one can take me up on my request to point out where anyone has advocated neglecting our children's social development??

Not even _one_ quote you can find??

Thought not.

Try actually _reading_ the posts here. It will be informative.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

aira,







. No, of course no one said that, in those words. However, I did hear this message, numerous times:

"I teach my child about manners and gratitude through modeling. I believe that she learns all she needs to know about these things though observation, and indeed, I believe the child will learn these lessons *better* this way than she would if instructed or reminded."

Tell me if I have that wrong, anyone and everyone.

I do read the other posts, as I'm sure other posters do as well. I don't see the need for the snarky tone.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:

So then no one can take me up on my request to point out where anyone has advocated neglecting our children's social development??
Aira, I think the idea was, since some children DO need more than modelling, a one-size-fits-all "Modelling ONLY!" approach *does* neglect the needs of some children.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, it's certainly grating to explicitly state - several times - that I in no way encourage letting a child fail socially, or act in a way that hurts others, to be repeatedly told that I'm saying such.

So I must question whether my words are being read.

Once again, *I fully believe that children should be guided and helped in their social interactions*. I have never once stated otherwise.

If the fact that I advocate a different method of guiding than you do means to you that I'm advocating no guidance, well then, that's just your arrogance.

I think this is the exact time "snarkiness" would be called for.

---

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
Aira, I think the idea was, since some children DO need more than modelling, a one-size-fits-all "Modelling ONLY!" approach does neglect the needs of some children.

You can't possibly know this unless you have "modelled only" in a consistent way.

And go check out the parts of this thread where I and others question the value system of parents that dictates to you that your DC _needs_ more than modelling.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

But if the way you advocate is SPECIFICALLY OPPOSED to a variety of guidance strategies, and in fact you don't reconize at ALL that different children have different needs, or that different mamas need a different strategy than you ... with all due respect, who is showing more arrogance?

Not trying to bait, but I don't think you're under attack at all, and am not sure why you are responding so defensively.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Regarding post #123 ... have you raised a child with autism or Asperger's or similar issues? I appreciate your knowledge of YOUR CHILD, but there are very real differences among children.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I have seen him playing with his friends and cousins, and it is obvious that he is ostracized and often disliked, and this in turn frustrates him greatly. My brother and his wife never say anything to him about it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Also, my own nephew--the one who throws gifts down and makes faces--has had a LOT of trouble making and keeping friends. I'm pretty sure his parents' total lack of interest in cultivating his social "IQ" has something to do with that.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
one of the characters was a woman who was unfailingly "authentic" to herself - always absolutely true to herself and honored her own feelings. Never hesitated to tell "the brutal truth" regardless of the pain she caused. Other characters, traumatized by her merciless tongue, always fell back on the "Well, but she is always HONEST, and that's valuable." The problem ... she was in fact a compulsive liar, because lying was a convenient way to honor her AUTHENTIC DESIRES.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
Bottom line, I think complete unfailing "authenticity to one's own self" is a nice way of saying "complete narcissism" or even "sociopathy." I think we do our little ones no favors if we teach them to put their desires first every time.

These are just a sampling of the quotes that are really over the top in this discussion. Of course it gets my dander up to have this equated with what I'm saying - what would you expect?

You guys want to say inciteful stuff like this and then tell me I'm being defensive??

Of course my request still stands for anyone to point out anything in this thread where someone was advocating anything that resembles the neglect that's described in the quotes in this post...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Aira, maybe I don't quite get it. My understanding is that if your child were to turn up her nose at a gift or say she didn't like it, or omit a thank-you or other words of gratitude for a gift, you would do nothing, because you believe that your modeling is the only thing needed. Do I have this wrong? And then I think that what some others here are saying, including me, is that while pure modeling may work for some children it may not work for others (those less socially aware--actually, I do strongly suspect that my nephew mentioned above may have Asperger's).

It then follows, for me, if a child for whom it does not work is not given more specific help, that child may find himself in some social and personal difficulties.

Perhaps you are doing all you can to explain social customs and the meaning of social gestures, and specifically encouraging the learning of specific social/emotional skills, etc, just without any of the actual reminders/requests we would use. Is that what you mean?


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Er ...Aira, speaking for myself, I can honestly state I wasn't even THINKING of you when I wrote my posts. They are not directed at you or related to you. We're each the star of the movie playing in our own heads, and I was thinking about ME ... not YOU ... as I'm sure you do too.







I see nothing spiteful or inciting about the other posts, either.

The intense emotion you show does let me know that the topic *I* was discussing has a totally different emotional imact on you than on me. I'm NOT here to push buttons or cause pain so I'll bow out of the discussion. Maybe a cup of tea and a computer break would be a good idea ...?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, crescentaluna, I was confused beacuse they were in response to my (and others expressing my POV) posts. It certainly seemed to me you were equating our ideas with neglect.

Sorry if I got that wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
But if the way you advocate is SPECIFICALLY OPPOSED to a variety of guidance strategies, and in fact you don't reconize at ALL that different children have different needs, or that different mamas need a different strategy than you ... with all due respect, who is showing more arrogance?

Please show me even one occasion where I said anything of the sort... What I did say was that I think calling a kid out for their faults - even "nicely" -embarrasses them and is counterproductive.

---

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
My understanding is that if your child were to turn up her nose at a gift or say she didn't like it, or omit a thank-you or other words of gratitude for a gift, you would do nothing, because you believe that your modeling is the only thing needed. Do I have this wrong?

Yeah. I never said I would do nothing. I explicitly said so several times, which is why I questioned if the posts were being read. I said I would not call attention to my child's faults. I said I would step in and give the appropriate response without ever indicating that my child didn't or should have done.

Guys, I'm pretty sick today and I can't quite handle having my words misconstrued so much. If you were actually just talking about the movie in your own heads, then I apologize for misunderstanding your meaning.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I think it has been stated over and over that we would not just "do nothing" if our child neglected to thank a gift giver in the way we feel is appropriate. What I would do is to thank that person for dd. End of story. I would not "bring it up later". I would not have numerous discussions on manners. I would not punish her. I would not point out her "shortcomings" in front of the gift giver. i would not give a "look" to let her I know I do not approve or make her guess what I expect. I would thank Aunt Sally and move on expecting that one day sooner or later dd will "get it" or not based on what she needs/wants.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*

It then follows, for me, if a child for whom it does not work is not given more specific help, that child may find himself in some social and personal difficulties.


I think this sums up this entire arguement. My goal in parenting is not to make dd "work" properly. I do not aim to make her into anything except herself. I am here to help (when asked), model, play, discuss (when asked), meet her needs, etc..... I think she "works" fine the way she is whether she has manners or not. My aim is not the short term goal of having a perfectly polite child. My goal is long term to raise a person that is confident in her abilities to assess a situation and chose her course based on what the situation warrants....not fake gratitude.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
So then no one can take me up on my request to point out where anyone has advocated neglecting our children's social development??

Not even _one_ quote you can find??

Thought not.

Try actually _reading_ the posts here. It will be informative.


We're all reading the posts Aria. And while nobody is saying they will purposely neglect their childrens social development.
It is certainly the case that the way one considers teaching social skills appears to other paradigms as neglecting to teach social skills.
That is all.
of course to those who think modeling is 100% sufficient. Then they would obviously not feel that they are neglecting to teach.
But for those of us who think modeling is insufficient, we would think ourselves to be neglecting social skills if we followed that path.
That is all, a matter of interpretation on the effectiveness of the method. And not, shall we say, a misquote of the intentions the parents.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
It is certainly the case that the way one considers teaching social skills appears to other paradigms as neglecting to teach social skills.
That is all.
of course to those who think modeling is 100% sufficient. Then they would obviously not feel that they are neglecting to teach.
But for those of us who think modeling is insufficient, we would think ourselves to be neglecting social skills if we followed that path.

Well then let's speak in these terms and not the horror-story, socially neglected misfits that have been offered up here to discredit the "other" paradigm. There would be no problem here if everyone had been able to keep things in the realm of what's actually being discussed here.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, it's certainly grating to explicitly state - several times - that I in no way encourage letting a child fail socially, or act in a way that hurts others, to be repeatedly told that I'm saying such.

So I must question whether my words are being read.

Once again, *I fully believe that children should be guided and helped in their social interactions*. I have never once stated otherwise.

If the fact that I advocate a different method of guiding than you do means to you that I'm advocating no guidance, well then, that's just your arrogance..

Arrogance, disbelief call it what you will. But yes that is what it comes down to. Is leading while not making sure you are being followed guidance? Or are both necessary?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I think this is the exact time "snarkiness" would be called for..

Is Snarkiness ever really called for?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
You can't possibly know this unless you have "modelled only" in a consistent way.

And go check out the parts of this thread where I and others question the value system of parents that dictates to you that your DC _needs_ more than modelling.

Talk about arrogance.
This foolproof method is so good that it only fails when not applied correctly.

And finally BINGO,
we are talking about two very different value systems, both of which are under question and scrutiny by the other side.
And each of us who is comfortable in our paradigm cannot help but find the other questionable and baffling I would imagine.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Is Snarkiness ever really called for?

Well, it got you guys dialed back to what's actually being discussed here, so I guess it did what I intended.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
These are just a sampling of the quotes that are really over the top in this discussion. Of course it gets my dander up to have this equated with what I'm saying - what would you expect?

You guys want to say inciteful stuff like this and then tell me I'm being defensive??

Of course my request still stands for anyone to point out anything in this thread where someone was advocating anything that resembles the neglect that's described in the quotes in this post...

Why are these examples over the top? They are perfectly relevant examples of why it is so important to us to teach social values and manners. If they are relevant enough to be convincing to us, they are relevant enough to share in this discussion.

I wont even touch the inciteful. . . If you feel incited , you own that.

And Loraxc already kindly provided such a quote several posts back. And since you are reading the thread so closely you will have seen many examples of children's rudeness being honored as authentic and honest.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
And Loraxc already kindly provided such a quote several posts back. And since you are reading the thread so closely you will have seen many examples of children's rudeness being honored as authentic and honest.

I must be missing something, I see no quote... Nor do I see anyone stating that their hopes and goals for their children are rudeness and social akwardness.

As I explained earlier, those quotes are irrelevant beacuse they are admitted examples of children whose parents don't care to help their children. They are cases of neglectful parents and social disorders, and I (and others) have repeatedly pointed out that we are not advocating such parenting. So they had no place here.

Sure it's inciteful for someone to offer examples of "sociopathy" and "narcissism" to get everyone riled up about modelling paradigm. It's really extreme, in fact. So I'll call the posters on that weird tactic.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

For those of you that think it is neglectful to not coerce children into being polite (or any other "rule"), I have a pretty good counter example that really opened my eyes. I went to the unschooling conference in October. Most of the parents there advocate non-coersive parenting. I was pretty committed to non-coersive parenting before I went to that confernece but had my worries. I had heard so many stories about "someone they knew" whose parents did not "teach them anything" and how they grew up to be social misfits that could not navigate social situations. I feared soemthing similar could happen to my dd. So, we went to this conference partly to learn about unschooling but also to see a little slice of family life with no coersion. Guess what? I have never ever seen a group of children of all ages that were more pleasant to be with than the kids I met there. While some of the teens were uncomventional in their dress and style, I felt that their social skills far exceeded that of the teens I see around my town and in my extended family. These kids were never prompted to do things "correctly" yet they were all socially "fine". Better than fine. Not only could they say the "right" things at the "right" time to do the little social conventions like holding doors and helping people. But many were so great at reading and navigating social situations that THEY put ME at ease in converstaion. I have never had a 16 year old boy that did not know me come up and tactfully start and interesting conversation. I was very impressed. 180 dgeree turn around from all of the kids that are "reminded", "given the special look", "punished", "nagged", etc......

I do not think it is neglectful at all to stand back and let my child learn her way around this world any more than I think it is neglectful to impose my will on her eating habits or the other things everyone here at MDC agrees is off limits to coersion.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I guess my point is, I am not raising a 6 year old not to say dinner is gross. [...] but at the same time, what is the recourse? Punishing her or shaming her or yelling at her at the table? How does that help? Correcting her or sending her to another room to eat alone, or giving her a nasty look and scoling her in the car later? I mean what would be the action taken if my daughter happened to say something like that? (again, not that I would be all happy if she did).

Presumably, the same way that we use GD to deal with other issues. In the moment, I'd probably say something in a quiet aside to my daughter, like "that wasn't a very kind thing to say," or "that wasn't a very polite thing to say." Afterward, I'd talk it through with her: "How do you suppose Grandma felt when you said the dinner she made was gross? I think she might have felt sad. How do you think you'd feel if you worked hard on a picture for someone, and they said it was gross? Let's try to figure out another way that you could handle it if someone makes a dinner you don't like."

(Possible options: "I wouldn't care for any, thank you." "I think I'll just have a little bit of the lima bean surprise." "Could I have some bread and butter, please?" Not saying anything, just not eating much of anything and asking Mom to fix you something afterward.)

Sometimes it's necessary to your authentic self to say exactly what you think of a person or a situation, regardless of whether that opinion is kind. I don't think a gross dinner or an unwanted gift qualifies, though. It's not insincere to stop yourself from saying every single thing that pops into your head.

Suppose another kid has disfiguring facial scars. Is it 'insincere' to teach your child that one doesn't say things like "Wow, your scars are ugly," because it will hurt the person's feelings? I'm not saying that children should be taught to say "You're so beautiful" in that situation, but they can learn to find something positive to comment on: "You're so good at basketball - will you teach me how to make a jump shot?"

Similarly, children don't have to react to Grandma's itchy homemade sweater with, "Wow, it's my favorite present ever!", but they could learn to find something positive they *can* say: "Wow, Grandma, you *made* this? It's so cool that you know how to do that!" Or, "Blue is my favorite color, thanks!"


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Hee, I bowed out for a while and did some work, then i was curious enough to poke my head back in ... Emotions are still running high and while I do disagree with some things Aira has said (or the way she has interpreted things) I won't address those. Instead I wanted to throw something into the mix that was sortof nagging at me, but i couldn't quite put my finger on it ... Culture. Always so big that sometimes it's invisible. Some big 'ol generalizations coming up, then -

I am Mexican-American, and I can attest to some big cutural differences in the ways "politeness" is taught. Latin and African-American families generally don't stress that children _internalize_ control as much as White/Anglo families do. Latin and Black families tend to correct kids, openly, verbally, without regard to whose kids they are - the village raising the child idea. (This is one reason why white schoolteachers so often feel their black and latin kids are "outta control" - the kids are relying on a network of ADULTS to set boundaries and correct, and they are going to test, test til they find out where those boundaries are.) White/Anglo families tend to stress "internalized control" more and feel that only a parent can correct a child.

A child raised in one milleu or another will have different feelings about verbal "corrections" or "reminders." If your cuture is filled with adults verbalizing social mores, you'd probably feel neglected if an important adult never did it.

Like I said, I'm Latina. The way I was raised, I would have felt at sea if my tias hadn't coached me along in new social situations (as well as model, of course). But my child is biracial and we are far from that family network ... we are charting a new way of doing things, and I gotta say ... I trust the wisdom of my experience, I trust MY insight into my child, I trust MY total devotion to her. A stranger's criticism on an internet forum doesn't shatter that.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I am going out on a limb here to defend a previous comment made by another, but which I agreed as having had the same thought.
Just want to state that I am defending the use of these terms in this argument and not trying to insist in their verity.

I went to Mirriam Webster online and this is what I found
Narcissim: Egoism. :1 a : a doctrine that individual self-interest is the actual motive of all conscious action b : a doctrine that individual self-interest is the valid end of all actions
2 : excessive concern for oneself with or without exaggerated feelings of self-importance --

Now I understand that the term Narcissism might have a negative connotation. However I do not think it is unreasonable to equate Narcissism/ egoism with valuing the authentic self above all else. And I think many of us are getting the message that to correct a child or to expect them to say words of gratitude when they do not feel gratitude or whatever is to dishonor his authentic self. The authentic self and its development being held up as the pinnacle of importance.

And here is a definition of "sociopath" that I found at Answers.com (mirriam Webster didn't have it): Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.

Now while it may be true that children who are treated as if their authentic selves are of the highest of importance and whose only personal needs and desires are of utmost importance, (moreso than social conventions or whatever) may not grow into adults who believe these things to be true. However, the similarities between these definitions and the goals some parents have stated to have make the concern brought up by the PP perfectly valid when questioning these methods. Not a judgment or meant to be inciteful. But a well thought question.
Doesn't unfailing authenticity to the self lead to narcissm?
Doesn't never subjugating your desires and impulses to social cues lead to sociopathy?

And before it is argued that nobody said it did, I acknowledge this. But this is the type of concern that pops up in some of our heads when we contemplate these methods.
A valid concern. Not an insult or attempt to incite.

Joline


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

WHY WHY WHY do people think that allowing a kid to be authentic equals a kids that think only of themselves all of the time? I just do not get it. Do you know any kids that are being raised without coersion yet in a loving and non-neglectful way? Where does one get the basis that non-coersion equals "brat"? Who says these kids will not learn social skills?!?!?! Do you really think the only way to learn is to be "made" to do so by parents?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
WHY WHY WHY do people think that allowing a kid to be authentic equals a kids that think only of themselves all of the time? ?

Hmm, lack of expericnce or role models perhaps?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I just do not get it. Do you know any kids that are being raised without coersion yet in a loving and non-neglectful way? Where does one get the basis that non-coersion equals "brat"? Who says these kids will not learn social skills?!?!?! Do you really think the only way to learn is to be "made" to do so by parents?

Seriously this seems like a huge social experiement. How many of us have met anybody who has been raised from infancy in this way?
There are thousands of years of experience telling us that we have to teach our children how to behave. And as for me I know a helluva lot of well functioning, kind, polite happy adults who were raised in the traditional method. And I know nobody who was raised BOTH non coecively and non-neglectfully.
So while there is no evidence which supports that raising children this way creates brats or sociopaths. There is no evidence to the contrary either because it is so, rare.
Given that most of us have never met a fully functioning adult who was raised this way, it makes the claims to its effectiveness seem dubious at best.
I am glad for the families it works for. And I woudl not try to convince them otherwise.
But because history and experience tell me that firm loving guidance (which sometimes means coersion) and active teaching children sklls and morals works in a way that I have seen and felt, I am uninclined to risk raising my children in an entirely contrary way hoping fervently that this theory turns out to be true after all and my kids will be happier, more well adjusted, kinder and more authentic, than they would otherwise.

Joline


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree yooper... completely.

It seems to me to be a permeating theme among this board and others and in real life...even if the people are "gentle" about it....control is the key. Children are somehow less than adults, even if we love them to bits, and must be controlled in some way shape or form or they will turn out to be socially inept, awkward, jobless, out of control misfits with no real understanding of how anything around them operates and no skills of coping in the world without someone telling them how to act or what to do for 18 years of their life beforehand...only in a "gentle" way.

I honestly don't get it. Is it that the opposing sides of this are coming from such different perspectives that no agreement can be reached? That may be part of it. If you are in the school where you think that small children who don't say thank you on cue and cursty like a trained parrot despite how they feel inside are at risk of growing up to be SOCIOPATHS...then yeah, I can see where we won't see eye to eye.

I believe children are inherently innocent and social beings and in a loving, nurturing, gentle, safe environment where they are left to blossom on their own will do just that. Will you have a 4 year old who politely says thank you every time to someone? Probably not, but that is not my goal. My goal is to help her (if she desires, most children do) hone her inner voice, her authentic self, her sense of power over her own actions, words, thoughts, feelings... and THEN equip her with the tools to please others. You know, I believe you cannot truly be happy in life unless you are happy and content within yourself, with who you are and what you are, and that is the first step to helping the people around you be content and happy because you put out what you feel inside. I know this is much deeper than thanking Aunt Sally....but if I teach her from an early age to completely ignore how she feels inside, just for the benefit of making Aunt Sally feel like a super aunt, then what have I accomplished?

Basically, I have applauded my daughter for lying to herself and to others.

Super.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh, I just want to add... please don't bring up the "I have known people who have had this and that and they have turned out fine" bit... I really hate that.

How do you know? I mean seriously, I have met concentration camp survivors who have had families, held down jobs, had friends, loved ones, seemed really happy...and perhaps they were, but that doesn't mean there isn't a world of pain and scarring and inner issues that plague them.

Before I get flamed, I am NOT comparing making a child say thank you to a concentration camp survivor! I am just illustrating an extreme point -- when I hear people say things like "I have known people who have held down jobs and their parents did this and that, or they were nice people and their parents hit them" and stuff...how do YOU know what is inside them?

I am sure we meet and even become close to people all the time who "seem" great on the outside but carry a lot with them from their childhood.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I agree yooper... completely.

It seems to me to be a permeating theme among this board and others and in real life...even if the people are "gentle" about it....control is the key. Children are somehow less than adults, even if we love them to bits, and must be controlled in some way shape or form or they will turn out to be socially inept, awkward, jobless, out of control misfits with no real understanding of how anything around them operates and no skills of coping in the world without someone telling them how to act or what to do for 18 years of their life beforehand...only in a "gentle" way. .

Yes I think you are right. I dont remember which thread it was but I think that it was Scubamom who once said she doesnt even like the term "gentle discipline" because discipline implies trying to control her child. (I may be wrong as to who said it, but I think that was the gist) and I actually agreed with this. FOr many of us "gentle discipline" is attempting to teach and yes, sometimes control with gentle tools. But not abandoning that control entirely.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I honestly don't get it. Is it that the opposing sides of this are coming from such different perspectives that no agreement can be reached?..

Yes I think so. I think that we are talking about 2 entirely different ways of thinking about who our children are, what they expect from us, what they are capable of, and what our purpose is as their parents. We all have different answers to these questions. If our destinations are entirely different, our paths also will not be the same. (although at times they might seem similar)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
That may be part of it. If you are in the school where you think that small children who don't say thank you on cue and cursty like a trained parrot despite how they feel inside are at risk of growing up to be SOCIOPATHS...then yeah, I can see where we won't see eye to eye..

It is NOT that children who dont say Thank you and courtsey become sociopaths. It is that People without social skills of all kinds are considered sociopaths. And one might be concerned that without active teachign of social skills, they might not be adopted.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I believe children are inherently innocent and social beings and in a loving, nurturing, gentle, safe environment where they are left to blossom on their own will do just that. Will you have a 4 year old who politely says thank you every time to someone? Probably not, but that is not my goal. My goal is to help her (if she desires, most children do) hone her inner voice, her authentic self, her sense of power over her own actions, words, thoughts, feelings... and THEN equip her with the tools to please others. You know, I believe you cannot truly be happy in life unless you are happy and content within yourself, with who you are and what you are, and that is the first step to helping the people around you be content and happy because you put out what you feel inside. I know this is much deeper than thanking Aunt Sally....but if I teach her from an early age to completely ignore how she feels inside, just for the benefit of making Aunt Sally feel like a super aunt, then what have I accomplished?

Basically, I have applauded my daughter for lying to herself and to others.

Super.

I dont think that having manners equates to ignoring ones inner feelings. But that's just me. I do not feel the need to have everybody know my feelings in order to honor them.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Basically, I have applauded my daughter for lying to herself and to others.

Lied?!? Whoa. I think we're getting a bit carried away here. When someone gives you something you hate, what do you say? "I'm not going to lie to you, I hate it."

No, you say "Thank you" because you are thanking them for the effort, because that's what we do when someone gives us something in our society, we thank them, just like we tell them hello and goodbye.

Why is it if you encourage your child to do this it's considered lying? And speaking of giving kids' credit, I think most children can learn that it is often appropriate to hide your true feelings, or at least part of them, without any emotional damage whatsoever.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Children are somehow less than adults
I don't believer they are lesser in their humanity. I do believe that they have less knowledge and understanding of the world than I do, and that it is part of my job to impart that.

I also will frankly admit that I do not believe that children are "inherently innocent and social." I think children are inherently loving, but also inherently self-interested. I think people (not just children...people) have both darkness and light in them, and I do believe part of the "job" of society, culture and law is to help modulate the darkness.

I also do not think anarchy is a workable order for society. I am curious if any of you espousing the total noncoercion model consider yourselves anarchists (using the political definition here). It would be consistent, I think.

As for this "who said what" bit...here is what yoopervegan said she would do in the "Grandma" example:

Quote:

I think it has been stated over and over that we would not just "do nothing" if our child neglected to thank a gift giver in the way we feel is appropriate. What I would do is to thank that person for dd. End of story. I would not "bring it up later". I would not have numerous discussions on manners. I would not punish her. I would not point out her "shortcomings" in front of the gift giver. i would not give a "look" to let her I know I do not approve or make her guess what I expect.
Actually, I would consider this "doing nothing." More exactly, "doing nothing specific to address or call attention to the behavior," I guess. To me, the thank you in this situation would just be part of normal, everyday adult-adult interaction (of course you thank others) and it seems to me that the child might not even notice it. I don't know if *you*, aira, would do it the same way yooper would, but I had the idea you were operating under the same general principles.

As for "inciting", well...those of us on the other side have been chastised for making our children into demoralized parrots who will never comprehend true gratitude, and it has been implied that we understand nothing about GD (who defines GD, anyway?) So I think there have been some strong implications on the other side as well.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

johub, THANKS for "getting" my point! I've never said that a certain style of parenting "creates sociopaths" or anything like that. Rephrasing what I _did_ say - I do not think that raising children to always respond to the world based solely on what they immediately want is healthy. In fact, adults who base their choices SOLELY on what pleases them are classified as narcissists or sociopaths by definition.

Again, did not say anyone wanted to do that. Did not say anyone was doing that. But I did want to illuminate what I see as the logical end of a "my child's innate responses are always best" approach.

Part of me hates to say this, because "BTDT" is almost always a cop-out. But I wonder if parents here advocating for a variety of guidance methods above and beyond "modelling only" are parents who have raised one or more through childhood, through adolescence? or who have worked with large numbers of families? I helped raise a niece and nephew, and am a teacher, and those experiences have really pushed me away from advocating ANY one-size-fits-all approach to childrearing.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

oh and loraxc, I am a committed anarchist!







We who advocate a lawless society are the ones who believe we can only live that way when we each can get along, respectfully, considerately, courteously, genuinely! We may be the ones MOST committed to instilling those values in our little ones!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I HAVE met people from infants up through adults that were raised this way so I do not consider it a social experiment. I have met many in fact. And they were happy people that I felt had BETTER social skills than your average person. So I guess that helps me make this decision.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I keep thinking that I am not getting my point across and that people seriously think I am just going to "let" my dd be a meanspirited, self-centered brat. While it is not my goal to have dd behave a certain way, I do think that being respectful towards children encourages them to be respectful to other people. When we "make" them behave a certain way without giving them the benefit of figuring out why it is a good idea on their own, we have children that have no incentive to "behave" unless there is fear of getting caught. When they are embarrassed, reminded, nagged, discussed, given "the look", etc.....they are taking a never ending "test". They know they must behave a certain way in order to pass each day. So when they go to Jimmy's house for dinner and you are not there, they may or may not "behave". On the other hand, if they are part of a mutually-respectful family where no one "expects" anything, children quickly figure out how to model the behavior of people they respect. They try on attitiudes and bahaviors in a safe environment. If they tick off Aunt Sally by not acting "right" they at least do not have to deal with the double whammy of disapproval from their parents and potentially embarrassing correction on top of Aunt Sally's disapproval, disgust, or sadness. They can be sad or upset and know that the respectful parent is there for them to discuss without fear of a lecture. I could not ask for a better situation when the same thing happens when dd is a teenager and is feeling upset about potentially life threatening decisions. The last thing I want is for her to be afraid of my disapproval or lecture and not talk to me about it. I do not feel there is any way to harbor an open relationship when it actually matters (as in teens) if they have spent their entire life in a "test". That is of course, my yet to be untried opinion.

My dh hates it when I leave stuff around the house. I am a pretty neat person but occasionally bills or books will stack up in piles. It drives him nuts. His attempts to make me deal with it by nagging, complaining, teasing, or hiding my stuff makes me even less likely to try and help us both get what we want. On the other hand when he says, "it looks like the bills are piling up, would you like me to help by sorting or putting them away?", I am much more likely to either address the siutuation right away, use his help (or not), and try harder to keep on top of it. it is called mutual respect and we strive to do that for everyone in our family no matter how many lack-of-experience faults one might have.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree yooper and you are coming across very clearly to me anyway!

I guess what I can't resolve as it relates to this debate, is the fact that people seem to have no problem acting in ways towards and with their children that, if someone acted towards them, would be very embarrassing, hurtful and rude (imo).

As much as I don't want my daughter to hurt other people's feelings and upset someone, moreso is that I don't want my daughter to feel as if my approval of her on any level is contigent on whether she says the "right" words in every situation. When someone "reminds" or nags, or gives "the look" or tries to make their child show gratitude that is clearly absent at the moment, it does show dissaproval on some level. It is sending the messege that your child is not acting "good" or behaving in a way that you think they should and to me, that in no way is going to teach them to respect others....how is disrespecting your child or their feelings a good way to teach them to respect others? I don't get that.

People say they remind or tell or guide their child respectfully, but I don't know how that is possible in a situation where the room is looking at them when they are opening a present to see their response, and if they don't have the "right" one -- not only are they recieving sanctions from the people in the room (looks, etc) but they are recieving them from their parents too. I would think it would be a better learning opportunity for the child to see their parent gracefully accept the gift on their child's behalf without putting their child on the spot. That is just me. To me, that would be a better way to show my child through modeling how to gracefully accept a gift without putting them through some kind of test (as yooper so eloquently stated).


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:

My dh hates it when I leave stuff around the house. I am a pretty neat person but occasionally bills or books will stack up in piles. It drives him nuts. His attempts to make me deal with it by nagging, complaining, teasing, or hiding my stuff makes me even less likely to try and help us both get what we want. On the other hand when he says, "it looks like the bills are piling up, would you like me to help by sorting or putting them away?", I am much more likely to either address the siutuation right away, use his help (or not), and try harder to keep on top of it.
yah, exactly! A beautiful example. From where I'm coming from, this is exactly the kind of communication many (most?) of us need ... a reminder here and there to be mindful of other's needs. That's all I've ever been saying: modeling alone, modeling ONLY, doesn't always work. It doesn't work perfectly for you, yooper (your dh models being a tidy guy pretty well right?); it doesn't work perfectly for me; it DOES work now for aira's DD, and great, more power to 'em! But the verbal reminder, now and then, is a perfectly valid kind of GD guidance TOO.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
As for "inciting", well...those of us on the other side have been chastised for making our children into demoralized parrots who will never comprehend true gratitude, and it has been implied that we understand nothing about GD (who defines GD, anyway?) So I think there have been some strong implications on the other side as well.

Show me one instance where anyone here has chastized, implied that you understand nothing about GD, or committed any other claim made here.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
Some big 'ol generalizations coming up, then -

I am Mexican-American, and I can attest to some big cutural differences in the ways "politeness" is taught. Latin and African-American families generally don't stress that children _internalize_ control as much as White/Anglo families do. Latin and Black families tend to correct kids, openly, verbally, without regard to whose kids they are - the village raising the child idea. (This is one reason why white schoolteachers so often feel their black and latin kids are "outta control" - the kids are relying on a network of ADULTS to set boundaries and correct, and they are going to test, test til they find out where those boundaries are.) White/Anglo families tend to stress "internalized control" more and feel that only a parent can correct a child.

A child raised in one milleu or another will have different feelings about verbal "corrections" or "reminders." If your cuture is filled with adults verbalizing social mores, you'd probably feel neglected if an important adult never did it.

Like I said, I'm Latina. The way I was raised, I would have felt at sea if my tias hadn't coached me along in new social situations (as well as model, of course). But my child is biracial and we are far from that family network ... we are charting a new way of doing things, and I gotta say ... I trust the wisdom of my experience, I trust MY insight into my child, I trust MY total devotion to her. A stranger's criticism on an internet forum doesn't shatter that.









I am also Latina. Peruvian, specifically. And I was raised in the opposite way - i was not coached, i was not given any verbal corrections or reminders. i think i'm pretty nice and polite.







j/k, i know that was far from your point. anyway, i am glad you mentioned that these were generalizations because while I do agree with the cultural differences you mentioned on a broad scale, I represent that portion of the group that differs greatly.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i also wanted to add something that i thought would be obvious but so far i haven't really seen it mentioned (maybe i've missed one of the 2,000 posts though LOL)...i can gently talk to my son about manners OUTSIDE of the situation in question. if he's rude to Aunt Sally, I can let it go in the moment, thank Aunt Sally and say something like "it was very thoughtful of you to...." and not put DS on the spot. then AFTER Aunt Sally leaves I can talk to DS about how nice it was that Aunt Sally thought to bring him a gift. that it feels nice when people do things for us.

i don't have to tell him to use the words "thank you"...i don't have to put him on the spot...but i can still guide him toward feeling gratitude, empathy, etc...it's a win-win!


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I guess what I can't resolve as it relates to this debate, is the fact that people seem to have no problem acting in ways towards and with their children that, if someone acted towards them, would be very embarrassing, hurtful and rude (imo).

As much as I don't want my daughter to hurt other people's feelings and upset someone, moreso is that I don't want my daughter to feel as if my approval of her on any level is contigent on whether she says the "right" words in every situation. When someone "reminds" or nags, or gives "the look" or tries to make their child show gratitude that is clearly absent at the moment, it does show dissaproval on some level. It is sending the messege that your child is not acting "good" or behaving in a way that you think they should and to me, that in no way is going to teach them to respect others....how is disrespecting your child or their feelings a good way to teach them to respect others? I don't get that.

I guess I don't think it's disrespectful to give someone information about how to get along in a culture that's relatively new for them. When I've traveled in a foreign country, or been to events within an American subculture that's new to me, I haven't found it "very embarrassing, hurtful, or rude" to have someone who knew the culture better guide my behavior. Sure, I would probably feel that way if the guidance were done in a shaming or angry way, but it's never bothered me to have a guide or friend say quietly, "Wait, this is where you're supposed to take off your shoes," or "She would really be offended if you refused to accept even a token gift," or "No, you don't eat that, it's just symbolic."

As someone else said earlier, our children are learning contemporary American culture and folkways in the same way that we might learn the culture and folkways of a foreign country we travel to. And they can be helped to understand and follow the customs of the local people just as travelers can, and helped to figure out when questions of morality or ethics or health trump following customs.

As you've said yourself, it's not like children *want* to be rude or antisocial... generally. Why assume that they will automatically receive instruction or feedback as hostile judgment? I remember learning a lot of manners by imitation, yes, but I also learned a lot by direct instruction: "Here's how people act at a concert." "ABC isn't considered good manners. Another time, it would be better to do XYZ instead." Not in an angry, shaming way - just in an *educational* way.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I always thought that the entire reason adults get embarassed if corrected in public is because we are adults and should know better. And it makes us feel like children.
But children are not adults. So being a child wouldnt really be embarassing to somebody who is actually a child.
I know that it is the nature of children that they are not embarassed by the same things adults are embarassed by.
For example my daughter at 11 was perfectly humiliated to admit that she had a mother. As if all 11 year olds want other 11 year olds to think that they magically hatched from an egg.
And then there is my 2 year old who just loves to wear her sisters underwear over her head and prance aroudn saying "I am a witch!!".
Or that they can unashamedly cry right out in public when they are hurt or sad.
I am not saying that children do not get embarassed. What I mean though is that we cannot hold that whatever we as adults find embarassing to necessarliiy apply to children.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I guess what I can't resolve as it relates to this debate, is the fact that people seem to have no problem acting in ways towards and with their children that, if someone acted towards them, would be very embarrassing, hurtful and rude (imo).

Of course. There is no other relationship like the one between parent and child. I certainly don't expect to emulate any other relationship with my children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
As much as I don't want my daughter to hurt other people's feelings and upset someone, moreso is that I don't want my daughter to feel as if my approval of her on any level is contigent on whether she says the "right" words in every situation. When someone "reminds" or nags, or gives "the look" or tries to make their child show gratitude that is clearly absent at the moment, it does show dissaproval on some level. It is sending the messege that your child is not acting "good" or behaving in a way that you think they should and to me, that in no way is going to teach them to respect others....how is disrespecting your child or their feelings a good way to teach them to respect others? I don't get that.

Well, I don't try to parent without disapproving of my child's behavior. I don't really see how one honestly could. I also have no problem whatsoever with expressing and showing my disapproval, on any level. In fact, I try to make it obvious.

And just as a matter of semantics, I don't care if my child shows gratitude that doesn't exist. That's something they have to grow into. I want them to learn social mores and develop habits that will allow them to take their manners for granted, thus allowing them to concentrate on more important issues as they grow up. It's the same as when my dd wants to hit her brother. I don't care if she feels like hitting them. That's totally fine. I just won't allow her to follow through, no matter if it makes her less authentic.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
People say they remind or tell or guide their child respectfully, but I don't know how that is possible in a situation where the room is looking at them when they are opening a present to see their response, and if they don't have the "right" one -- not only are they recieving sanctions from the people in the room (looks, etc) but they are recieving them from their parents too.

I think it's plenty possible to do this respectfully because there is really no great societal expectation that a young child (at least one the age of my dd) should have excellent manners. Since I'm continuously teaching my dd all kinds of other things, there's no reason this should be any different. She doesn't think it is. To her it's like I reminded her to tie her shoe or something. Though I know some of you are sure she's mortified, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

This conversation is getting too far over the edge for me. Happy bantering!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Johub, again, ITA--I too take issue with blanket statements about what does or does not embarrass "a" child--ANY child of ANY age, it would seem. ?? But then you and and I are in agreement, I think, about our ideas WRT some fundamental differences between adults and children, which is a big philosophical divide in GD, clearly, as seen in this thread.

Quote:

Show me one instance where anyone here has chastized, implied that you understand nothing about GD, or committed any other claim made here.
I don't particularly want to get into this kind of back and forth, but you seem sort of angry about all this. Also, my paraphrasing was not sufficient for you before, it seems? You want actual quotes, right?

Here the "reminding" approach is called rude, harmful, humiliating, and manipulative:

Quote:

Calling attention to a child's lapse is calling attention to a child's lapse. I think it's rude no matter how nicely worded. Just b/c it's subtle doesn't mean that the child won't feel embarrased. And embarrassing a child over not wording something how you want is manipulation.

Quote:

The reminder can be as gentle as you want.....if you do it in front of other people, I do think their is harm in it

Quote:

Basically, the child's "choice" is to refuse or comply. "Reminding" certainly seems to be on the cusp of humiliation, if done with any other audience observing. Even "politely" reminded publicly. I
Implying that we do not understand GD:

Quote:

I am not sure why people think this is such a "little GD deal". It is about dignity which is a big deal

Quote:

Yes, it is that big a deal. Each little act of self-denial of one's own true self is cutting away and replacing the authentic person with a facade.

Quote:

I find it interesting that people state they have bigger GD issues to worry about than this and feel like they are wasting thier time justifying why they feel the need to coach thier children. I do not see any bigger issues.
Implying that our children will not understand true gratitude:

Quote:

When we remove the opportunities to experience the consequences of the impact of our own actions on others, we lose the potential to learn why rudeness matters. (Especially if someone is rude while "teaching" when rudeness matters.









Quote:

How does forcing a child who doesn't feel something to lie about what they are feeling to recieve positive re-enforcement from a bigger person teaching any kind of empathy or authenticity?
The words "parrot" or "parroting" have been use multiple times as well.

I purposely did not attach names to these quotes. I am not quoting them here to say, "How dare you! Out of order!" I am just posting them because aira, you seem to disagree that the implications are going on.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Oops, meant to say--GREAT post, Rivka5, and a very good metaphor. I totally agree.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I just want to add that I know of hundreds of children who have never been taught manners who have learned them through modeling and observation. Here is a link to the AlwaysUnschooled yahoogroup. And one can search the archives for information about many, many children who use manners without being taught, instructed, reminded, corrected, etc. Perhaps the inherent skill of learning through observation is damaged by frequent "instruction". Maybe, the dynamic of learning _becomes_ a dependent act separate from the act of living. We do not teach in our home. Our son is unaware that "learning" occurs, gaining information that is useful is merely a byproduct of living. He is learning all the time and he is not dependent upon others to direct his knowledge acquisition. His innate ability to observe, create theories, explore and research through trial and error and re-evaluate his conclusions is not redirected to my priorities or social conventions. However, he is amazingly sensitive and responsive to other's with consideration. Abet not perfectly. Nor am I.

He trusts himself to learn what he needs to know because I have not doubted his ability to do so. And he does.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Always...guid=140240070

Pat


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
First of all, myrdawn, let me clear this up:

Wait, wait--I agree with you!







I was actually playing devil's advocate in the post you're replying to here. I *don't* actually think that it's wrongly coercive to encourage a a child to say thank you, to remove a hitting child, ect etc...I was responding to those posters who seemed to be saying that guiding manners behavior was "coercive," because I couldn't see how it differed from guiding/"coercing" other behavior. Does that make sense?









Yes, it makes perfect sense the way you just explained.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Finally, I also agree that children, while certainly not inherently "bad," are inherently self-interested. That is their "authentic" nature much of the time. It is completely authentic when my daughter hits me when she is frustrated, and you may trust me that this has never, ever been modeled to her (by anyone, in fact--she does not go to daycare, her playgroup is pretty much all non-hitters, and she has never seen violent images). It is also authentic when she snatches away another child's toy and won't give it back. All these things may be her authentic self, but that does not mean I am just going to go on letting her do them while hoping that my modeling of preferable behaviors will be sufficient. I think that is inadequate, and sets the child up for failure. I believe the "modeling without requesting" model of teaching manners and consideration to be similarly inadequate.

I heartily agree! Some authentic actions of our children are not acceptable, but if we sit idly by watching them, the children will think we approve of those actions. If we don't help them learn to correct those actions, who will?


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, it got you guys dialed back to what's actually being discussed here, so I guess it did what I intended.

If you intended on proving to us that you consider treating people you disagree disprespectfully, with snarkiness, as a way of making them do what you want, then yes, I guess it did.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Some authentic actions of our children are not acceptable, but if we sit idly by watching them, the children will think we approve of those actions.
See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.


You cannot have a discussion with someone who does not follow your exact philosophies? I am sorry, but I find that to be sad. I may not agree with some of you here, about everything, but I think it is really interesting to hear "the other side" of issues and beliefs, etc.


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.

That's your option. Feel free to ignore my posts. I don't happen think a discussion should only include people with the exact same philosophies, however.


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## MyrDawn (Nov 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.

Feel free to ignore this Captain Cruncy, but in case you didn't understand what I meant when I said _Some authentic actions of our children are not acceptable, but if we sit idly by watching them, the children will think we approve of those actions._ I'll give you a couple of examples of my meaning.

We can say "thank you" FOR our children all we want when they receive a gift, but if they don't catch on that it's what is expected of them, how or when or will they learn it's not their Mother that is supposed to do their thanking for them?

If we sit by and watch our toddler hit other people and don't bat an eyelash, they have no idea that hitting other people is something we don't approve of.

We can model all we want, but, how do you model that not hitting other people isn't right when your child is hitting someone?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyrDawn*
If you intended on proving to us that you consider treating people you disagree disprespectfully, with snarkiness, as a way of making them do what you want, then yes, I guess it did.

Well, I guess this is the entire crux of the disagreement. I saw no actual _disrespect_ in my posts. Annoyance? Absolutely.

In order to make you "do what I want"? Not a chance. To make a point clear (which was ignored for pages) that you guys were lightyears off topic and inappropriate? Absolutely.

I clearly stated in several posts that it was my intention to bring the discussion back on-topic and that I was annoyed at the behavior of some posters. There was no control from my end - only open expression of my problems.

But I guess that since I'm not in favor of rotely saying the "right" things to please the people, then you might take my genuine annoyance as disrespect. Are you suggesting that my sentiments be stifled by _your_ judgement that my annoyance was disrespectful?

Who's controlling whom?

Remember, I'm over 2 years old.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I have a question that started nagging me in the middle of the night. I'm afriad this is going to sound snarky, which isn't my intent, but it is a genuine question that I probably don't have the wording right on.

Many of you have said that children can and do learn manners just by observing other's response to them. That is, that parents don't need to remind or lecture or provide instruction, but that, as I understand it, children will learn by watching how people resond to their actions and, over time, figure it out. Doesn't this, by definition, mean that children must do something that other people will react to? And isn't this likely to be something "negative", especially for younger children without a lot of "public interaction" experience? I won't term it rudeness, more ignorance, I suppose.

Going back to the itchy sweater example... If a child didn't say thank you to grandma, he might get a variety of responses depending on the family involved. Grandma might respond with a slight frown or murmer of disappointment. Both of my children's grandmas would deliver a lecture on manners, and not very nicely. Great-grandma would probably slap the child (OK, we stay away from great-grandma most of the time because she has the lowering of boundaries that comes from dementia, but its certainly not an aheard of response.) How is this kinder, less embarrassing or whatever than a quiet whisper of "please say thank you"?????? I will confess, I just don't get it.

Also, an observation from someone who responded very early and then has watched for several pages. Seems to me that many of the "debates" that are going on here are, as frequently the case, subject to how old the child you think you are talking about is (2 vs. 6 vs. 10) and how if someone talks about modeling (or whatever) the assumption is that this is the ONLY thing that parent would do. In fact, it might be just one aspect of a plan or depend on the child's age. For example, for the less than 2 YO in the OP, all I advised was modeling. But for a 5 YO I would integrate more information outside of social situations (e.g. talk about gratitude even in the gift isn't perfect before birthday party) and would quietly coach when necessary.

It might help if people weren't so quick to assume that someone's post represents the sum total of their parenting plan and that everyone else is, of course, picturing the same child you are!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.

Are you really going to approve of every single thing your children do? Is that how your parenting philosophy is different?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I just want to add that I know of hundreds of children who have never been taught manners who have learned them through modeling and observation. Here is a link to the AlwaysUnschooled yahoogroup. And one can search the archives for information about many, many children who use manners without being taught, instructed, reminded, corrected, etc. Perhaps the inherent skill of learning through observation is damaged by frequent "instruction". Maybe, the dynamic of learning _becomes_ a dependent act separate from the act of living. We do not teach in our home. Our son is unaware that "learning" occurs, gaining information that is useful is merely a byproduct of living. He is learning all the time and he is not dependent upon others to direct his knowledge acquisition. His innate ability to observe, create theories, explore and research through trial and error and re-evaluate his conclusions is not redirected to my priorities or social conventions. However, he is amazingly sensitive and responsive to other's with consideration. Abet not perfectly. Nor am I.

He trusts himself to learn what he needs to know because I have not doubted his ability to do so. And he does.

Pat, this is very interesting. I assume this is the theory behind Unschooling? I've never seen this before.

But I have to ask, have you felt like the times in your life that you have received instruction have impeded your ability to learn? Or do you think that children grow out of this, once they have a more fully developed sense of themselves as separate from their parents?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Actually I can have discussions with people who so vastly differ from my parenting philosophies... I seem to be doing that a lot on here of all places lately....so strike that comment.

What I meant to say was that particular comment really irked me. Just because you don't step in and "correct" every behavior your child displays that isn't favorable to you doesn't mean you are sitting idly by OR that you accept it. It just means that I recognize that my goal in parenting is not controlling my daughter so she behaves in a way that is pleasurable to me. I believe she will behave in a favorable way for the most part WITHOUT me having to control her or her actions.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
What I meant to say was that particular comment really irked me. Just because you don't step in and "correct" every behavior your child displays that isn't favorable to you doesn't mean you are sitting idly by OR that you accept it. It just means that I recognize that my goal in parenting is not controlling my daughter so she behaves in a way that is pleasurable to me. I believe she will behave in a favorable way for the most part WITHOUT me having to control her or her actions.

Oooohhh. Okay. Thanks for expanding. I thought you were saying your dd would never do anything you disapproved of, but you were really saying that you just wouldn't correct her if she did. Makes a lot more sense.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't really care for the term correction. After all, aren't jails called "correctional" facilities? They obviously don't do much to correct any kind of behavior, so on a much, much smaller scale, I agree with this philosophy regarding children (in that it doesn't work too well most of the time). Correcting, punishing, shaming, yelling, time-outs, taking away items of enjoyment (or their "currency" blech) if they don't do something we want them to do...all that is not how I want the dynamic to be with my daughter. I don't want our dynamic to be one of control, namely, ME in control and her having only small amounts of choices that I dole out to her depending on how well she "behaves" for me.

That is just not us.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Evan&Anna's_Mom, you raise some great points.

I wish I had more computer time to go through them all. The best I can do in a time-crunch, is try to give a gist of what I'd do...

1. If GG ever slapped my kid, she'd never see him again. Her behavior gets a response too, and that would be it. (In fact, when I was a tot, my GGfather raised his cane to me and ended up in a nursing home bc of it.)

2. Other people shaming them is inappropriate as much as if I shamed them. But I can't control others, so I step in. I don't tell Grandma to pretend she's happy if she's not, but I still get my turn to add my thoughts to the mix. There is no doubt that DS would hear me "handle" Grandma if she "lectured" DS in age-inappropriate ways, or otherwise hurt his feelings for not responding to her liking. Then he could form his own opinions about the interaction. There would be at least 2 sides presented, and he would not solely hear a message that he was "bad".

A recent example: My 90 yo grandmother fell in the kitchen (walking backwards with her walker) and was pretty shaken up about it. I got her up, in her room, and gave her her pain meds. While I was doing that, DS was jumping on her bed and kinda rolled off the bed, laughed and kept playing. She said: I told you if you do that you're gonna fall. Are you trying to get hurt just to get attention? Do you _want_ to get hurt?

So I told her that we didn't say hurtful things when she fell, so let's not say hurtful things to DS either. He was keenly aware of the entire episode, and made of it what he will. But he heard both sides. And that's what I hope for him in those cases.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

michelemiller, thanks! for your post! That's the big problem with generalizations -- really, I was talking about Mexican-American / Chicano kids in the US. Between Latin American countries, there are huge differences. Sorry for the blanket generalizations







:

I still feel that the "Never teach manners verbally, NEVER!" school of though hasn't really addressed the influence of culture (also as in Evan&AnnasMom's post); the fact that some children do NOT learn by modelling well; the fact that other kids learn from modelling extremely well, and will learn rude behavior they've seen outside the house. I feel that others who advocate a variety of guidance styles are accused of promoting nagging and dishonesty when we're not. Enough said.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Just because you don't step in and "correct" every behavior your child displays that isn't favorable to you doesn't mean you are sitting idly by OR that you accept it.

BINGO! Kids get to be genuine, and so do parents. In my family, I get to genuinely express my feeling to (part of modelling). They then get to choose behaviors in relating to me based on what they want to accomplish.

When the are influenced by rudeness from other sources, when they try it out at home, it gets the response it gets, and they decide if it's worth keeping that up. I would never pretend that I like it or that I feel good being talked to rudely. I might even say something like, "I don't like how that feels." Or, "Mommy's doesn't feel like playing anymore right now. My feeling are a bit hurt."

What I wouldn't say would be, "I'll play with you when you are nice/good/sweet..." Or, "You may not act like that..."


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Some of us feel that our children's actions are not the relevant focus and therefore approving and disapproving of their behaviors or actions is not an aspect of our relationship with them. I do not approve or disapprove, nor judge any of our son's actions as acceptable or unacceptable except as they directly impact me. Then I express my feelings and needs, not that the behavior is universally "inappropriate" or "appropriate". This not the value judgement lexicon upon which I choose to relate to our son, nor others. It is a different communication dynamic which does not encompass passing judgement on others. Not even of their behaviors.

This is a different philosophy of relating with others, not based upon the blame/fault matrix. We discuss to understand, not to correct. The goal is to clarify the need underlying the behavior, both his and mine, and others. There are no approved or disapproved needs or behaviors. There are more and less mutually agreeable means of meeting our needs. And I work to understand the need, not address the behavior. Judging a behavior as undesirable or inappropriate serves no productive purpose, in my opinion, other than creating and imposing the blame/fault matrix.

We do discuss the observations of other's reactions (feelings and needs), my reactions (feelings and needs) to actions which impact me, and his reactions (feelings and needs) to actions which impact him, but in an effort _to understand_ what *underlies* the response. Not with any need to judge the outward manifestation of his actions as "good" or "bad". The actions and behaviors are merely messages of underlying needs. Just as Grandma's response is a need for being shown gratitude for her effort.

The frustration of discussing a parenting dynamic with others who are so focused on the behaviors and on judging the behaviors creates an obstruction to *understanding rather than "fixing"* the perceived "problem". The philosophical "problem" is different. To me the "problem" is understanding both the child's intent, and the impact. Not to change the impact. To spend time discussing the *impact* and how to alter it, overlooks the underlying need or motivation. Instead, if we are focused on the child's underlying need and faciliating them to meet their need in a mutually agreeable way (with information about impact), judgement of their behavior can be non-present and even counter-productive. Furthermore, focusing on the underlying need SOLVES THE PROBLEM, *if* we facilitate a mutually agreeable alternative. It is difficult to feel that someone is advocating and partnered with you to meet your needs when they are judging you, your actions, your impact, or your intent.

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge. And I believe judgement damages the Trust of oneself; and damages the Trust that others are an advocate for us.

Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I don't really care for the term correction. After all, aren't jails called "correctional" facilities? They obviously don't do much to correct any kind of behavior, so on a much, much smaller scale, I agree with this philosophy regarding children (in that it doesn't work too well most of the time). Correcting, punishing, shaming, yelling, time-outs, taking away items of enjoyment (or their "currency" blech) if they don't do something we want them to do...all that is not how I want the dynamic to be with my daughter. I don't want our dynamic to be one of control, namely, ME in control and her having only small amounts of choices that I dole out to her depending on how well she "behaves" for me.

That is just not us.

You know, I really don't appreciate being grouped with Dr. Phil, yellers, spankers, and punishers. I don't think it's fair to anyone on this board, and I think your blanket dismissal of anyone who chooses to coach their children more than you do as selfish control freaks who only care about how they "behave" for them doesn't contribute to a respectful debate.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

You know...it's a little funny, really. I would say I am an extremely "low-coercion" parent. I am also basically in the no-reward no-punishment school of discipline (I may reevaluate as DD gets older, but it'c certainly where we are now, at two). In other words, I am totally outside the disciplinary mainstream. This issue (politeness and consideration) happens to be a biggie for me, however. It is a place where I am going to take a more active role. Rather than placing me and others in the category of "I can't even talk to you about this because you are so completely opposite me, and you remind me of Dr. Phil," I would appreciate a slightly more open mind. I have certainly paid attention here, and I will probably give the embarrassment issue more thought than I might have before this thread.

One thing I find confusing about the model some of you seem be espousing--I feel like you in fact give the child much more freedom and right to expression than the parent. You say you believe in everyone being genuine--thus, your child can say whatever she wants in response to someone's kind gesture, right? But am I really supposed to behave the same way? I don't think so--I get the idea I am maybe allowed to carefully formulate a polite, noncoercive, emotionally neutral comment about how I may be affected by their behavior. Well, but that's not how I genuinely feel! How is that egalitarian, then?

Quote:

BINGO! Kids get to be genuine, and so do parents. In my family, I get to genuinely express my feeling to (part of modelling).
Okay, so let's say my child drops Grandma's sweater on the floor in disdain and spits out her casserole. My "genuine feelings" in this scenario would be embarrassment and anger at her behavior. Am I allowed to tell her that? ("DD, you just really embarrassed me and made me mad! I feel terrible that you hurt Grandma's feelings!") How is that possibly less shaming and hurtful than quietly taking her aside and explaning to her that Grandma worked hard on that, people enjoy being thanked, etc?

Or am I meant to be so highly evolved that I do not experience these feelings, and just think "Wow, DD is so authentic--what a pure expression of her feelings"? I mean, nonsnarkily--kudos to you if you are in this place. I am not, and I would venture to say that the vast majority of parents are nowhere near it, either.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge. And I believe judgement damages the Trust of oneself; and damages the Trust that others are an advocate for us.


But people judge other people all the time. Whether judgement is good or bad seems irrelevant to certain extent because it happens and nothing we do is going to change that.

Adults and other children judge my kids all the time. On a play date, in the classroom, wherever they are, others judge them. Some people even have a "right" to judge them. Heck, in a way, I even PAY the teachers to judge them. That's part of their job -- to evaluate both academic and social behavior and help the child improve/learn. How do you do that without first forming a judgement of said behaviour?

Note that I chose times when I wasn't present. I'm not talking about how I judge their behavior (though I do and I'm not about to say that I shouldn't -- I think that's my job too). But to keep this out of personal parenting philosophy, lets confine the idea to times when I'm not there and not invested in the situation. My child is still judged and others react to him or her according to the judgement they form. It is a fact of being part of a human social structure. So how does your "no judgement" approach work within the reality of the world? Again, I don't get it and I'm starting to think that just never will.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

i don't think people who coach their children more than me are selfish control freaks...I was speaking in terms of "correcting" and even then I don't think I said that people who do that are selfish control freaks.

...but no matter how *gently* someone puts it, I believe that when one is correcting their child's behavior, especially in social situations for others to witness, or even taking them aside -- where everyone in said social situation knows what is going on... or even in private later where the child is basically being told that how they acted was wrong, and by extension, an embarrassment for the parent ...it seems to me that isn't my personal definition of modeling respect.

I think many parents on here, just generally speaking, DO seek a control dynamic with their children....that doesn't mean they are bad parents....in fact I believe many parents on here are quite loving, and gentle, and try very hard to be respectful of their children etc... however, in my humble opinion, I don't care for a dynamic of control. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that my child is going to turn out to be a denture wearing, rude, filth living, jobless weirdo with no social skills just because I don't make her brush her teeth, or say thank you on cue, or force her to clean her room or whatever.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I don't subscribe to the philosophy that my child is going to turn out to be a denture wearing, rude, filth living, jobless weirdo with no social skills just because I don't make her brush her teeth, or say thank you on cue, or force her to clean her room or whatever.









Well, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that my children are going to turn out to be repressed, inauthentic, out of touch, miserable people pleaser because my dh and I have chosen a "control dynamic". Still, I would prefer not to be lumped in with authoritarian spankers, I don't appreciate the insinuation.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I didn't mention spanking in my post actually. I know most people here don't spank, but I do strongly believe that "not spanking" doesn't automatically mean someone is practicing gentle discipline. I am not saying you don't practice gentle discipline, I am not in your home, I would say from most of your posts you seem to be a very loving, caring mama who wants to do the best by and for your kids as we most do...

I was just speaking generally, and I am sorry if you felt like I was specifically *targeting* you or speaking specifically of you. I was speaking more in general terms, about the dynamic of forcing children to be polite in situations where they obviously are not feeling very polite or gracious at the moment.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I didn't mention spanking in my post actually. I know most people here don't spank, but I do strongly believe that "not spanking" doesn't automatically mean someone is practicing gentle discipline. I am not saying you don't practice gentle discipline, I am not in your home, I would say from most of your posts you seem to be a very loving, caring mama who wants to do the best by and for your kids as we most do...

I was just speaking generally, and I am sorry if you felt like I was specifically *targeting* you or speaking specifically of you. I was speaking more in general terms, about the dynamic of forcing children to be polite in situations where they obviously are not feeling very polite or gracious at the moment.

I didn't feel like you were specifically *targeting* me. I also strongly believe that "not spanking" doesn't automatically mean someone is practicing gentle discipline. But I also believe that there's a whole lot of "gentle discipline" other than non-coercive parenting, or whatever you practice. And you have made repeated references in this discussion to shaming, scolding, yelling and punishing as being the only alternative to what you are espousing. This is in spite of the fact that all of us who have been advocating for "the dynamic of forcing children to be polite in situations where they are obviously not feeling very polite" have stated that we would never do this. That's what I have found offensive in your posts.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Well 10 pages later, I still don't know what most people would do in those situations *sigh*

On one hand I see people saying they would never embarrass or shame or punish their child for not saying thank you or whatever, but then in the next sentence or another post they say things like they would "give the look" or "nudge" or "correct" or "remind" them...or better yet, take them in private and have a "talk" .... all in front of Aunt Sally (or whoever)... and to me that is shaming....I guess that is just my take on it because I would never want someone to do that to me, as a child or now as an adult...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Well 10 pages later, I still don't know what most people would do in those situations *sigh*

On one hand I see people saying they would never embarrass or shame or punish their child for not saying thank you or whatever, but then in the next sentence or another post they say things like they would "give the look" or "nudge" or "correct" or "remind" them...or better yet, take them in private and have a "talk" .... all in front of Aunt Sally (or whoever)... and to me that is shaming....I guess that is just my take on it because I would never want someone to do that to me, as a child or now as an adult...

Yes, which brings us again to the question of whether or not we can tell if our children are embarrassed. I feel no need to convince anyone of my expertise on my children's emotions, so I guess I'm done.

In parting, let me say that I still believe some children need more than modeling. My brother and SIL have excellent manners, they are two of the politest, most charming people I know -- my brother used to be a diplomat, in fact. But my nephew isn't getting it, for whatever reason. Since I don't believe he's just naturally rude, I think he needs more coaching.


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## AppleOrangePear (Apr 17, 2004)

I say model model model.. And if there is a time they dont say it the parent can always say it.. if someone gives a gift parent can say "thank you" leave it at that.. I always hate when i hear parents making a big issue out of it especially 2 and younger..... Not giving them something if they dont say it.. then you get kids that use the words however no sincerity behind it......

we have a 2yr old that since 18 months when ever he walks close by he says excuse me , and using thanks and please consistantly : O ) though if he doesnt i dont say anything... ESPECIALLY hes only 2.. I know some adults that have less manners


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Instead, if we are focused on the child's underlying need and faciliating them to meet their need in a mutually agreeable way (with information about impact), judgement of their behavior can be non-present and even counter-productive. Furthermore, focusing on the underlying need SOLVES THE PROBLEM, if we facilitate a mutually agreeable alternative. It is difficult to feel that someone is advocating and partnered with you to meet your needs when they are judging you, your actions, your impact, or your intent.

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge. And I believe judgement damages the Trust of oneself; and damages the Trust that others are an advocate for us.











I learn much from you, Mama!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
See, I can't have discussions with people who's parenting philosophies are SO vastly different than mine. I don't believe this statement is true at all.

We do it all the time!!
And I do think the disupted statement is very true.

eta. oops my router was down all day and i came in so late I didnt finish reading where you mentioned that you DO have discussions here all the time with people of different parenting philosophies!

Great fun guys! Sooner or later we will have this same debate over almost every discipline issue we can think of !


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

We do it all the time!!
lol yeah I know, that is why I recanted that statement -- it was a knee jerk response to a comment that just rubbed me the wrong way...

Just something about the words "allowing our children" to do or not do things we really don't have any control over...just control over how we react or whether or not we punish them (we won't be punishing), gets me cranked sometimes...


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

I constantly say please, thank-you and Bless you around my DC. A few days ago my DD came up to me and handed me her sippy cup and said pweeps (which is please btw). After I got her drink she said dant doo (which is thank-you). When DS sneezes she says bwetts doo (you guessed it Bless you). She is 18 mo. Last Sat when I was crying because DH worked a 15 hour shift and I missed him she came up to me and doo ugh (You Hug?). All you ever need to do is treat them kindly and with manners and they will mimic it. Monkey see Monkey do.


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## FoxyMom (Apr 23, 2003)

Has anybody mentioned pulling the child aside a little later and reminding them when they are out of earshot so that they don't get embarrassed? I read a few of the posts (had NOT idea this thread was 10 pages long)

But, to answer the OP, I started when DD was born. She still signs please when she says it. DH and I model this behavior, and she is a really polite toddler (26 months old.) I think it's also important to explain to them WHY manners are important. For example, if you don't say thank you to people they won't think that you appreciate things and they won't want to do things for you. Being polite shows that you care.

Zombiewaif. My DD always says bless you when anyone sneezes. She also covers her mouth when she burps and says excuse me.







My favorite is when she pulled my blanket up higher on me and said "That better?" LOL!

I do have to admit, that when her grandma gave DD a cookie today, and she didn't say thank you, I asked her "Did you remember to tell grammie thank you?" She turned around and said "Oh! Thank you grammie!"

I think I will continue to do that. "Did you remember?" I won't chastise her, but give her a gentle reminder.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

ONe of the difficult things with modeling is that the 2 and 3 year old who ALWAYS says please, thank you, bless you etc. . . from modeling, will likely be modeled different behavior when they get older and go to school etc. . .
My oldest dd never had to be taught to say these things when very young, but she started needing reminders when she was older which showed, that despite the fact that other she may spend time with might not do these things, I still expect them.
In fact, right now at 13 she is working on her manners again because i think it is pretty embarassing that her 2 and 3 year old siblings say "please" and "thank you" , "bless you " and even "May I please be excused" with much more reliability than she does. (and them without needing reminders, they started all on their own)
I think like the unschoolers/ homeschoolers, their models are often much more carefully chosen than those of us who send our children to public school or who participate a lot in activities outside a close knit group who shares the same values (like a lot of homeschooling groups are)
Add to that the influence of TV (in some homes) and soon the carefully modeled behavior of the parents becomes outnumbered by less than inspiring behavior models.
Perhaps if I were in a circumstance where I had full control over whom my children came into contact with, any possible "need" for anythign more than modeling would be a moot point.
Joline


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Joline, it's true that I will homeschool DS b/c I do not agree with the methods or philosophy of compulsory schooling. So it does follow that he won't be exposed to that. But I think there are complex issues with the "controlling the environment" idea. I've thought about this inside and out - and I see so many sides.

On one hand a parent has little to no control over a child's school exvironment. But it isn't an _uncontrolled_ environment. It's kind of a helpless environment, where a child has no recourse for anything, really. That can be very hard on them.

Another angle is that homeschooling allows more "control" of sorts. But it's the control of being _able not to control_. I don't have any plans to engineer DS's social world or only allow him what I like. But he will get to see me discuss differences I have with people, leave a situation if it's dangerous (physically or emotionally), or handle things some other way. School would never provide him that. So I want him out in the world. But it's not to limit his exposure.

On that note... I have and do get overwhelmed with outside influences. But _I'm_ overwhelmed by the influences - not so much DS. (I made a thread about this a little while ago...) I do get really sick and tired of my family (a close-knit group) imposing their value systems on DS and me. But I was not raised the way I'm raising DS.


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## mamasadie (May 13, 2005)

I've been following this thread with interest.







I appreciated the many viewpoints. Here is a great article that I read a few years ago that really opened my eyes to the idea of not imposing any kind of teaching on a child.

http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/manners.html

I realize and respect that we are not all going to agree. But I think a concise and well written summation of the non-coercive view would be helpful in explaining things at least so those who practice others forms of parenting have a better idea where we're coming from.









Thanks for a stimulating and enjoyable read. You are all quite clearly dedicated and loving mamas.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

So a bit earlier there was the comment, "Well 10 pages later, I still don't know what most people would do in those situations *sigh*" SOOO, here are a few examples ... But bear in mind I think the whole "please, thank you" issue is SO MINOR compared to a kid's overall respectfulness towards others.

I'm at a party (holiday, birthday, whatever) with my 3-year-old. She's given a gift. She tears it open with glee and then looks around for the next exciting thing (no "thank you" given). I'd take the gift, address the giver, and thank them. Probably, if she heard me, DD would chime in with "Tank you!" If not, no biggie. When we are preparing to leave, I might say privately to her "Did you have fun? Yeah? Auntie was so nice to us today. Let's remember to say thank you to her when we say goodbye."

I'm at a party with my 6-year-old. She's given a gift she's in ecstacy over - too in love with it to look up and say "thanks". I address the giver and I thank them, pointing out how pleased DD is. When her initial joy has subsided a bit and I catch her eye, I might mouth the words "Thank you" or say "Come here a sec, sweetie," and quietly ask "Did you remember to say thanks to Auntie? It'll make her happy, I think."

Or ... she doesn't really like the gift ... puts it aside, no comment. I thank the giver, then as soon as I had a private moment with DD, say something like "I guess you didn't like auntie's gift, right? Why not? Well ... I understand you don't like it. Maybe we can change it, I don't know. But you know, you still need to say something to Auntie. She was trying to do something nice, right? Yeah. What do you think you'll say? ... That's nice, I think she'll like that, let's go talk to her." And I'd go with her, and if Auntie made a big deal of "So you didn't like the gift I got you!" I'd intervene, because a 6 year-old is not a diplomat, and try to nicely explain so that NEITHER auntie or DD gets hurt.

I'm at a party with my 8-year-old. She's given a gift... She opens the paper, looks at it, and loudly says "YUCK. This is so STUPID." I would stand up and immediately say, "DD, come in the kitchen with me. I want to talk to you." And I'd take her out of the situation. Shaming? Yes, probably, depending on the kid. But shame is a valuable emotion like others. I have felt ashamed of being mean, and I WANT my child to feel ashamed when they deliberately hurt someone's feelings. And at age 8 my child, if reasonably empathetic, is going to KNOW she just hurt auntie's feelings. In the kitchen I'd say how that was hurtful and rude, and ask if DD could think of a way to make the situation better. I wouldn't demand it but would make it clear the best thing to do would be an apology AND a thank-you for the thoughtfulness of buying a gift at all. At age 8 I am almost certain DD will want to do that.

Just a few examples of where I would use language to go "above and beyond" pure modelling. I do not feel that these are shaming to my child, except as I said possibly the last; I do not think ANY of these are belittling or damaging. In the last case, I think if all I do is model a nice polite "thank you" of my own to Auntie, I am reinforcing DD to feel any and every thing she does is fine, regardless of the feelings of others.

I'm not saying "this is what you should do with YOUR child" but rather what I'd do with my own, who I know.


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## FoxyMom (Apr 23, 2003)

Cresentluna







Well said. And I have to agree.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Am still curious about the responses of the "modelling only" mamas. Do you still hold that my approach is belittling, coercive, brainwashing, whatever? How would 'modelling only' in the last example really work?

Just curious.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescantaluna*
I have felt ashamed of being mean, and I WANT my child to feel ashamed when they *deliberately* hurt someone's feelings. And at age 8 my child, if reasonably empathetic, is going to KNOW she just hurt auntie's feelings.

Ahh... It's the deliberate thing I don't buy. I don't think there's anything deliberate about an 8 yo squealing "Yuck!" when they are disappointed. It's assaigning an awful lot of sophistication to the act of opening a package.

And if you've ever felt ashamed of hurting someone, did you realize it on your own? Has the "offended" told you how they felt hurt? Has a third person ever "outed" you for your actions and instructed you to apologize? How were your feelings about theses people after these exchanges?

Do you think it's impossible for someone to come to the conclusion that they have hurt someone after observing that person's subsequent behavior, or after mulling it over in a quieter moment?

ETA: To answer your question in the above post, yes.

I have no issue with the 3-year-old example. I'd do similar, though likely without pointing out to DC that we would be thanking Auntie...

However, I still think your methods in the next 2 examples are embarrassing, belittling, and counterproductive to helping DC becoming genuinely grateful. I won't be doing those things.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I hesitate to reply since I did say I was out of this discussion quite some time ago because some of the rsponses were getting painful for me to read....but I did read your post and had that what my responses would be.....and there does not seem to be any more "modellers" willing to particiapte at this point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*

I'm at a party (holiday, birthday, whatever) with my 3-year-old. She's given a gift. She tears it open with glee and then looks around for the next exciting thing (no "thank you" given). I'd take the gift, address the giver, and thank them. Probably, if she heard me, DD would chime in with "Tank you!" If not, no biggie. When we are preparing to leave, I might say privately to her "Did you have fun? Yeah? Auntie was so nice to us today. Let's remember to say thank you to her when we say goodbye."


I would do exactly the same even up to the last comment omitting the "let's remember to say thank you when we say goodbye". Rather than say that, I would thank auntie as we left and dd would be free to say it as well, or not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*

I'm at a party with my 6-year-old. She's given a gift she's in ecstacy over - too in love with it to look up and say "thanks". I address the giver and I thank them, pointing out how pleased DD is. When her initial joy has subsided a bit and I catch her eye, I might mouth the words "Thank you" or say "Come here a sec, sweetie," and quietly ask "Did you remember to say thanks to Auntie? It'll make her happy, I think."


Again, I would do exactly as you would except i would not give dd a look or whisper anythign to her. At 6 years of age I have no doubt that if she was too excited to thank the giver, she would "get it" by hearing me thank the giver. She would either chime in then or not. Up to her. Just like at Christmas when dh gets a gift he is very excited about, I might point out "look how much he likes it!", but would not ask him to say anything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
Or ... she doesn't really like the gift ... puts it aside, no comment. I thank the giver, then as soon as I had a private moment with DD, say something like "I guess you didn't like auntie's gift, right? Why not? Well ... I understand you don't like it. Maybe we can change it, I don't know. But you know, you still need to say something to Auntie. She was trying to do something nice, right? Yeah. What do you think you'll say? ... That's nice, I think she'll like that, let's go talk to her." And I'd go with her, and if Auntie made a big deal of "So you didn't like the gift I got you!" I'd intervene, because a 6 year-old is not a diplomat, and try to nicely explain so that NEITHER auntie or DD gets hurt.


Same as situation number 2. Most 6 years olds would pick up on the cue if I say thanks. And if my dd didn't, well that is between auntie and dd (with me helping if I can). I really do not think auntie is going to feel any better getting a forced thanks from a child that was just made to say it. Yes auntie's feelings are still hurt (as I think they would be either way) but at least I do not double dd's issues after she got a gift she was unhappy with my embarrassing her and forcing her to say something she does not feel.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
I'm at a party with my 8-year-old. She's given a gift... She opens the paper, looks at it, and loudly says "YUCK. This is so STUPID." I would stand up and immediately say, "DD, come in the kitchen with me. I want to talk to you." And I'd take her out of the situation. Shaming? Yes, probably, depending on the kid. But shame is a valuable emotion like others. I have felt ashamed of being mean, and I WANT my child to feel ashamed when they deliberately hurt someone's feelings. And at age 8 my child, if reasonably empathetic, is going to KNOW she just hurt auntie's feelings. In the kitchen I'd say how that was hurtful and rude, and ask if DD could think of a way to make the situation better. I wouldn't demand it but would make it clear the best thing to do would be an apology AND a thank-you for the thoughtfulness of buying a gift at all. At age 8 I am almost certain DD will want to do that.


Well, first off, I find this situation nearly impossible. My child has been raised non-coersively since birth and already is remarkably respectful. An 8 year old that is that out of tune with empathy has either not been treated respectfully themselves or is so disappointed that they lose themselves for a moment. Shaming by me will not help in either situation. So, what would I do? I would simply apoplogize to the gift giver for dd's reaction, try and find some way to thank them...."that color yellow is just beautiful!"....and move on. I am sure if dd were upset enough to say that, she probably would need some private support from me. And again, I am quite sure that after the initial outburst and some time to think about it, any 8 year old that has been respectfully treated would want to remedy the situation either with help or not. Also, while i would not bring it up as a disucssion topic at a later time, I would guess that dd would at which time I would bring up how hurt auntie looked. dd would have to deicde for herself what she wanted to do about it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crescentaluna*
Just a few examples of where I would use language to go "above and beyond" pure modelling. I do not feel that these are shaming to my child, except as I said possibly the last; I do not think ANY of these are belittling or damaging. In the last case, I think if all I do is model a nice polite "thank you" of my own to Auntie, I am reinforcing DD to feel any and every thing she does is fine, regardless of the feelings of others.

I do think parts of your examples could be shaming for some kids, I think they would do little to "teach", but that is MY opinion. I am sure others here (most probably) would disagree. You think (as quoted in example #4) that shame is an important emotion for teaching children. I think it is harmful. So I think that is the key point where we disagree. Does that make either of us bad parents? No. Just different. Also, the non-modellers on here are more concerned about "outcomes" than i am. I do not worry about how my child will "turn out" as I see her as a complete person already. She is what she is at that time. I do not aim to "mold" her. She "molds" herself and I help when she asks. Maybe she wants to grow up to be a mean manner-less bully? I highly doubt it so I trust her to seek the info and help needed to become the person she wants to be.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I completely agree yooper...completely.

One thing though, is that I have to just clarify that I don't worry about how my daughter is going to *turn out*. I have every faith that she will grow to be a beautiful human being (inside) as she is now and has been from the day I gave birth to her.

I do feel though, that the way my husband and I are choosing to relate to our daughter, specifically in this respect will greatly benefit her in the future, that's all. I feel that one of our roles as her parents is to be a soft place for her as she discovers who she is, who she wants to be, how she feels, what she likes, what makes her content, what upsets her ... and all that entails. In my opinion, teaching her from a very young age to say one thing when she is feeling the exact opposite, isn't contributing to that.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Also, the non-modellers on here are more concerned about "outcomes" than i am. I do not worry about how my child will "turn out" as I see her as a complete person already. She is what she is at that time. I do not aim to "mold" her. She "molds" herself and I help when she asks. Maybe she wants to grow up to be a mean manner-less bully? I highly doubt it so I trust her to seek the info and help needed to become the person she wants to be.

Well, I said I wouldn't get back in this too, but...

I definitely worry about how my dd will "turn out". Sure, she's a complete person already, but she's going to change a whole, whole lot between now and the time she leaves my household. And I don't think anyone wants to be a manner-less bully, but there are certainly a lot of them out there. And those people don't seem very happy, and I think a lot of it is due to frustration from being unable to develop strong relationships because they don't have good social skills. I don't want my children to have to worry about that, and I think a lot of socializing and manners is just habit, a habit that might need reinforcement.

Also, let me add that I think it's presuming a lot to say that someone will only act disrespectfully if they have not been treated with respect. Especially an eight year old. I also think it's presuming a WHOLE lot to assume that all eight year olds have enough empathy to automatically detect the appropriate behavior in all social situations. That doesn't come naturally to a lot of people.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't worry about how my daughter will turn out because truthfully, I have no control over it. There will come a time where she will be able to make 100% of her decisions 100% of the time, which is why we are beginning very early with non-coercion parenting. I have observed many children who are otherwise *good* people, who go nuts practically when they leave their parents house because there is suddenly a world of things they are *allowed* to do and boy if they don't do them all...and then some. I am not saying all kids, but it is something I have observed way more often than not, even with some aspects of myself coming from a very *controlled* childhood.

Of course I hope my daughter is a caring, trustworthy, happy, contented adult... I don't think anyone sits around hoping their adult children are rude A-holes....but seriously, I don't think the difference between a child growing up to be a rude, mannerless heathen with no social skills hinges on whether you force them to thank Aunt Sally.

...and on the same token, I don't think a child is going to grow up to be a robot who doesn't know how they feel about anything if they are forced to say thank you...

...but given the choice between forcing my children to do something and gracefully doing it on their behalf (like thanking or whatever) I will always choose the latter.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*

I definitely worry about how my dd will "turn out". Sure, she's a complete person already, but she's going to change a whole, whole lot between now and the time she leaves my household. And I don't think anyone wants to be a manner-less bully, but there are certainly a lot of them out there. And those people don't seem very happy, and I think a lot of it is due to frustration from being unable to develop strong relationships because they don't have good social skills. I don't want my children to have to worry about that, and I think a lot of socializing and manners is just habit, a habit that might need reinforcement.

Also, let me add that I think it's presuming a lot to say that someone will only act disrespectfully if they have not been treated with respect. Especially an eight year old. I also think it's presuming a WHOLE lot to assume that all eight year olds have enough empathy to automatically detect the appropriate behavior in all social situations. That doesn't come naturally to a lot of people.

Somewhere in the last 11 pages I am sure it was said that yes, there are manner-less people that are unhappy with thier lack of social skills. Seeing as it is the norm for parents to shame, bully, make parrot, "discuss", and remind children to have manners, I would have to guess that many if not most of these "manner-less" people were either completely neglected by their parents or were coerced into false manners as children.

And secondly, I know or have known a great deal of 8 year olds. I do think they are quite capable of empathy....in many cases way more so than adults. What they lack sometimes is impulse control and perfect memories. People expect that. Poeple forgive children that lose themselves as it is part od growing up. How is shaming and embarrassing a teaching point? I just do not get it. How is heaping some parental disapproval on top of aunties fallen face or diapproving look going to do anything except make a kid not want to ask or rely on help from adults. Maybe many kids would not pick up on the parents apology and gratitude AT THAT MOMENT due to being in the thick of some strong emotions. But after they calm down, most will see both sides of the situation. Am I giving 8 year olds too much credit? I do not think so. Maybe the 8 year olds everyone else are thinking of are so used to being told what to do that they do not even think about it any more?


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

I knew that by posting anything definite the firing squad would come out!







So be it.









yooper said about the rude 8-y-o ... "Well, first off, I find this situation nearly impossible. My child has been raised non-coersively since birth and already is remarkably respectful. An 8 year old that is that out of tune with empathy has either not been treated respectfully themselves or is so disappointed that they lose themselves for a moment."

OR ...

She heard a kid say it at a birthday party, and it got big laughs.
Or she heard it on a tv show or movie.
Or a classmate said something like that to her when she traded lunch.
Or a girl at school said it to someone else, hurting the other girl's feelings, and DD is thinking about flexing her own power.
Or she heard auntie's teenaged sons being rude to her and wanted to also try being rude to auntie.
Or ... on and on.

All of which, sad to say, are experiences that happen to 8 year olds who are not sequestered away. My dd will not be sheltered to the point she's never seen bad behavior, and she's a human being: she WILL experiment with being rude, and mean, and deliberately naughty. It's part of being human. I will continue to love her through that. (Unless of course she *is* an entirely enlightened being, which I don't yet rule out!)

If you expect your child to never explore that part of their humanity, I think you are setting unfairly demanding standards.

8-year-olds are far more sophisticated than you give credit for, is what I'm saying. Being raised for 8 years in a respectful environment, an outburst like the one I described would NOT be the result of simple disappointment - maybe for a 5-y-o - Not for an 8 y-o. For my sweet DD, an outburst like that would be for some reason, and a rarity.

I have had experiences, as an adult, where a friend or family member pointed out my own behaviors so that I was struck with shame. Just a handful, and they have stuck with me. Not comfortable but extremely valuable; I can honestly say I am so grateful for these friends and these experiences. I also have a DP whose culture is quite different from mine (he's white upper class) and who does clue me in about what is polite, how to behave, etc. I don't "feel shamed" by this but grateful. Maybe what I'm saying is that I do not project my own "shame" issues onto DD, because I don't really have them. And right now neither does she.

I believe in discussing the reasons WHY we say "please, thanks" with a 6yo because most 6yo will have no innate idea why we say such things; I want her to understand that the goal is not to produce the phrase on cue but to *make someone else happy*.

I don't "worry about how DD will turn out" - she is stunning already, and as she blossoms into herself she will be even more so. My intuition about this is 110%. Yet I AM responsible in some ways for "how she turns out"! Like a tree growing that will always be itself, but is shaped by the place it grows. Whatever I am responsible for, I take it seriously.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, that is great. You are happy and comfortable with how you treat your dc and I am with how I treat my dc. It is quite clear that no one is going to change thier minds. I am never going to think it is OK to use shame as a teaching tool. You are not going to think it is OK to not step in a take control. I do realize kids try things out that they see and hear. This is not a problem for me. I think it is pretty normal. I do think a 6 year old can figure out why we say please and thank you. And I have zero doubt that dd will grow up to know how to use manners if she wants to. I have met many children and adults that have been raised non-coersively and find them to be very pleasent people. I have met many children and adults that have been taught manners with shame, reminders, looks, and punishment....some are pleasant, many are not.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I have read some of this thread, and really wanted to chime in to say AIRA, YOU ARE DOING WONDERFUL THINGS! What you are doing here for children should be applauded, so I am here to do that














. I am not going against anyone who disagrees with Aira, so forgive me if this sounds chafing to others. But she is just saying some amazing, world changing things. For if we change how children are parented, we can change the world!

We all have little kids, right? But what about us big kids? I was never, ever told to say please, thank you, nothing. Yet my mother had five very polite children. And we are now very polite adults. In fact, my mother hates seeing children pulled up for manners and it makes us all cringe - it looks so insincere when the child says thank you after being reminded, for starters. My brother has two older children, one is 16, and they are lovely - never a reminder graced their ears. I don't remind my daughter and I am confident, because of my parents, that she'll be ok - regardless of a slip up now and then. In fact, she is the only three year old I've ever known to say things like, "Oh this is just wonderful, thank you from the bottom of my heart!" - because _that's what I say to her_. Sure, all of us here are polite now regardless of how our parents treated us; my point is that reminders aren't necessary if you treat them with the golden rule - less stress for parent and child is the bonus. Let us not model insincerity, or expect our 5 year olds to behave like 12 year olds. Every now and then that will happen, but to expect it isn't fair.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

For if we change how children are parented, we can change the world!
Exactly! Thank you for saying it so succinctly.

Pat


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Oh my!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I am never going to think it is OK to use shame as a teaching tool.
True 'dat.


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## EarthyLady (Jul 15, 2005)

My dd is almost 27 months old...and is very polite. But, we are polite people. If I ask dh to do something for me, I ask please, and when he does it, I say thank you. So, we've taught dd to be that way from the beginning. If she is asking for something rudely and being demanding, we remind her that she needs to ask nicely. I personally see nothing wrong with that. I often need reminded of how I should be acting in a given situation...and I'm an adult! I don't take offense if someone corrects me...unless I'm having pride issues that day.


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Not sure, but you may have misunderstood my comments about shame: I do not say it's "a teaching tool for parents" but that _it's an emotion we can learn from_. I don't belive that the "dark" emotions like sadness, loneliness, shame, guilt are just bad things to be avoided at all costs, but rather are emotions a fully-developed, mature person will feel at times. And should.

Obviously, there's still disagreement about the scenarios I sketched earlier. When I hear, "Those scenarios are shaming," I read it as: "I am a sensitive person, and _if I were the child in question,_ I'd be shamed." And I can believe that. And were my DD also that sensitive I'd behave differently.

But I don't believe ALL or even most children experience things that way.

Bottom line - I can not believe blanket generalizations about how ALL kids experience ALL things. Of course, you have the right to believe whatever you do.

Thanks for the discussion, in any case!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Not sure, but you may have misunderstood my comments about shame: I do not say it's "a teaching tool for parents" but that it's an emotion we can learn from. I don't belive that the "dark" emotions like *sadness, loneliness, shame, guilt* are just bad things to be avoided at all costs, but rather are emotions a fully-developed, mature person will feel at times. And should.
(emphasis mine)

I agree with the above quote, I do. However, my only point was, I am not going to be the person who contributes to my daughter feeling the ways that are bolded if at all humanly possible...and I believe it is in almost all situations.

I fully believe there are enough people in the world that will *contribute* to her feeling like that at different stages through her life...but I won't be one of them if I can help it.

The posters are right, I can't tell everyone's emotions at all times...but I have been in enough social situations with children to see the averted eyes, the mumbled *thank you* as they stare at the floor, the look at mom or dad after they mumble said thank you to make sure they *did it right*, and other non-verbal cues that are clearly given when most children are "reminded" of their manners...

Will it damage them for life? Who can say. When I see those things though, I do know in the moment the child feels uncomfortable, and I want to prevent temporary upset as much as I want to prevent permanant damage.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Ok, I am going to add a bit of a twist into this discussion.







I _don't_ feel guilt or shame.







I do sometimes feel apologetic and I apologize. But, I don't carry any of that sense of regret into future ruminations. I strive to be very conscious of my actions and am comfortable taking full accountability for my actions; therefore I don't see a place for guilt, nor shame. (maybe I am a sociopath







: )

Another issue is that I am authentic about my emotional reactions about how I prefer to be treated. So, when ds has requested help in a demanding manner, I will share how I prefer to be addressed or treated, without shaming, nor expectation of performance. Not in a manner of teaching, but in a manner of requesting how I desire to be treated. I have done so professionally and personally on other occasions too.

And, I do want to mention that desiring to 'prevent a child from feeling uncomfortable, and wanting to prevent temporary upset' when authentically expressing myself is not a specific goal of mine. However, I do not speak with an intent to elicit those feelings either. I don't remit expressing my own feelings in an effort to protect our son from the experience of his actions. This is a fine line. I am not desiring to 'teach a lesson', but to maintain personal boundaries. I don't consider that our son is responsible for my reactions, but I do attempt to be true to expressing my feelings.

I believe sharing feelings and needs is a an opportunity to nurture connectivity with information about how I feel about different events as they occur in my life. I don't use the lexicon of "you made me feel xyz". I own my feelings AND I do share how I feel, BUT without attributing blame or accountability to others for my feelings. I would say "I don't like to be hit, I feel sad when I see animals hurt, I feel angry when I am kicked.' Or, I might say 'I prefer to be asked to do things with a 'please' or 'would you mama?', when ds (or dh, for that matter) says 'get me some apple juice' if this were a consistent issue to me. But not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others.

For things such as an unwanted gift from me, I would just empathize and offer to return it. I might even express how I would prefer to be told that he didn't want it more gently, and explain that I desired to gift him with what he wanted. But again not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others. I have advocated for dh in a similar manner too, helping ds understand the impact of ds's unhappy reaction and dh's intent. But, not in an expectation of a 'redo' of the response in some "appropriate" fashion.

Pat


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Weird, I do feel shame and guilt. I wouldn't say that I wallow or drown in them, but I do feel almost every emotion on the range of the emotional rainbow...That having been said though, just because I feel them occasionally doesn't mean I think they are emotions that serve much of a purpose to hold on to.

For instance, there was a mutual friend of mine and another woman who had made some comments at a big vegan gettogether that I didn't particularly agree with. The next time my friend and I were together, I was basically being a gossipy bitch about this woman, saying a bunch of things I didn't have the nerve to say to her in person...when I left that exchange I did feel ashamed and guilty. That is not the person I am or the person I want to be, but no one's perfect. To top that off, I saw her at an anti-war protest and she was SO kind to my daughter, then I felt doubly like poop. Of course I didn't let it ruin my life, but I know that I was wrong and that I wouldn't feel better until I did something. I apologized to the other friend about saying negative things and explained I was frustrated and was venting and I truly didn't feel that way about the other woman...and explained to the woman when I saw her again that there were a few comments she made (politically and animal rights wise) that I didn't agree with and I was frustrated that I didn't get the chance to explain my side of the discussion blah blah blah... all was good.

My point to that longwinded story, is that I feel people are born social creatures and that they do feel a world of emotions, both good and bad....and that small children don't need these emotions thrust upon them in the form of guilt, shame, manipulation, whatever to "learn" how to "be" adults in the future.

If there is such thing as a sociopath, I believe it is a chemical reaction in the brain from birth, or as a result of growing up in a situation that is SO repressed of any genuine feeling that the person stifles as second nature...or a combination of the two, I don't know. I don't think sociopaths are created by NOT forcing lil Johnny to say thank you to Aunt Sally any more than I think they are created by reminding...

....but at the same time, if I have a chance for my child to have a pleasant experience with the oppurtunity to observe a social situation to come to their own conclusions about how they choose to act in the next social situation...that is the choice I will make over tainting their learning or observational experience by pushing my own code of behaviors on them. (that is what I meant by preventing temporary pain or embarrassment for a greater *goal*...of allowing a natural environment for them to come to their code of acceptable behaviors through their own observations, thoughts, reactions from others etc and not from me nudging them or giving a look or whatever)


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Ok, I am going to add a bit of a twist into this discussion.







I _don't_ feel guilt or shame.







I do sometimes feel apologetic and I apologize. But, I don't carry any of that sense of regret into future ruminations. I strive to be very conscious of my actions and am comfortable taking full accountability for my actions; therefore I don't see a place for guilt, nor shame. (maybe I am a sociopath







: )

Another issue is that I am authentic about my emotional reactions about how I prefer to be treated. So, when ds has requested help in a demanding manner, I will share how I prefer to be addressed or treated, without shaming, nor expectation of performance. Not in a manner of teaching, but in a manner of requesting how I desire to be treated. I have done so professionally and personally on other occasions too.

And, I do want to mention that desiring to 'prevent a child from feeling uncomfortable, and wanting to prevent temporary upset' when authentically expressing myself is not a specific goal of mine. However, I do not speak with an intent to elicit those feelings either. I don't remit expressing my own feelings in an effort to protect our son from the experience of his actions. This is a fine line. I am not desiring to 'teach a lesson', but to maintain personal boundaries. I don't consider that our son is responsible for my reactions, but I do attempt to be true to expressing my feelings.

I believe sharing feelings and needs is a an opportunity to nurture connectivity with information about how I feel about different events as they occur in my life. I don't use the lexicon of "you made me feel xyz". *I own my feelings AND I do share how I feel, BUT without attributing blame or accountability to others for my feelings.* I would say "I don't like to be hit, I feel sad when I see animals hurt, I feel angry when I am kicked.' Or, I might say 'I prefer to be asked to do things with a 'please' or 'would you mama?', when ds (or dh, for that matter) says 'get me some apple juice' if this were a consistent issue to me. But not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others.

For things such as an unwanted gift from me, I would just empathize and offer to return it. I might even express how I would prefer to be told that he didn't want it more gently, and explain that I desired to gift him with what he wanted. But again not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others. I have advocated for dh in a similar manner too, helping ds understand the impact of ds's unhappy reaction and dh's intent. But, not in an expectation of a 'redo' of the response in some "appropriate" fashion.

Pat

This is reasonable. The bold is mine, I like that sentence. Do you do NLP? Neurolinguistic Parenting. (also neurolinguistic programming in most circles). They advocate modelling behavior and not "stifling creativity and potential genius" by molding a child to fit one's own idea of appropriate behavior - even if that behavior is considered the norm of one's society. What struck me as NLP in your post was your phrasing. NLP does not advocate admonishing behavior, but instead reflecting how the behavior affects others, allowing choice. For instance, instead of "Don't hit!" or "We shouldn't hit" or whatever form of words usually taken by parents, they encourage "*I don't like it when you hit me*" or "*That hurt*!" Which is a completely reasonable guiding tool, if used correctly. The latter is showing repercussions and natural consequences (telling the truth; saying how you feel; showing what happens - allowing _thought_ and _choice_ to build in one's child) yet avoiding admonishing, demanding and expectations which removes choice and highlights failing.

Another example are thought-preceding-action phrases which are along the lines of "Don't think of a pink elephant" and a pink elephant inevitably entering the mind. Instead of saying to a child, "Don't drop that." (negative outcome potential of "drop that") we choose "*Hold on tight with two hands*." (positive outcome option of "holding on").

I think that sharing with a child how their actions or words make you feel, while at the same time _owning_ those feelings as a _choice you have made_ teaches the child this same behavior also. However, this type of parenting only works for a small minority of people. For the majority, it seems to just confuse them and make them feel powerless - for to own responsibility for one's own feelings is a tough ask for the average Westerner.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
This is reasonable. The bold is mine, I like that sentence. Do you do NLP? Neurolinguistic Parenting. (also neurolinguistic programming in most circles). They advocate modelling behavior and not "stifling creativity and potential genius" by molding a child to fit one's own idea of appropriate behavior - even if that behavior is considered the norm of one's society. What struck me as NLP in your post was your phrasing. NLP does not advocate admonishing behavior, but instead reflecting how the behavior affects others, allowing choice. For instance, instead of "Don't hit!" or "We shouldn't hit" or whatever form of words usually taken by parents, they encourage "*I don't like it when you hit me*" or "*That hurt*!" Which is a completely reasonable guiding tool, if used correctly. The latter is showing repercussions and natural consequences (telling the truth; saying how you feel; showing what happens - allowing _thought_ and _choice_ to build in one's child) yet avoiding admonishing, demanding and expectations which removes choice and highlights failing.

Another example are thought-preceding-action phrases which are along the lines of "Don't think of a pink elephant" and a pink elephant inevitably entering the mind. Instead of saying to a child, "Don't drop that." (negative outcome potential of "drop that") we choose "*Hold on tight with two hands*." (positive outcome option of "holding on").

I think that sharing with a child how their actions or words make you feel, while at the same time _owning_ those feelings as a _choice you have made_ teaches the child this same behavior also. However, this type of parenting only works for a small minority of people. For the majority, it seems to just confuse them and make them feel powerless - for to own responsibility for one's own feelings is a tough ask for the average Westerner.

Calm, you have intrigued me with a formal name for this practice of mine. Hmmm..I will need to respond later. But yeah that. An interesting question to ponder is 'how could owning responsibility for one's internal emotional experience disempower one'? Actually, I find that it doesn't at all.

Pat


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

would say "I don't like to be hit, I feel sad when I see animals hurt, I feel angry when I am kicked.' Or, I might say 'I prefer to be asked to do things with a 'please' or 'would you mama?', when ds (or dh, for that matter) says 'get me some apple juice' if this were a consistent issue to me. But not in front of anyone and not regarding how he addresses others.
Now, this makes a lot of sense to me. Actually, I guess I do this as well--if DD hits me, my usual response is actually not "We don't hit" but "Hitting hurts mama." I also tell DD that whining hurts my ears and makes me feel cranky. Interestingly, my DH feels that this is NOT okay and that I am erring too much on the side of making DD "responsible" for my feelings. It seems like it could be a fine line to walk, to share without attributing blame. And couldn't it sort of become semantics after a point? Is "Whining makes me feel cranky" any different than "When you whine, it makes me cranky" to a 2-year-old, I wonder?

I also wonder about not doing it in front of others. This seems tricky. What if most of your parenting, for whatever reason, were taking place in front of others? What do you do if your child hits you in the supermarket?

I am not asking these questions to be combative--hope it doesn't come off that way. I find the model you are talking about makes more sense to me than simply modelling without offering thoughts on how behavior affects others. I am trying to see the shades of gray.

Quote:

Instead of saying to a child, "Don't drop that." (negative outcome potential of "drop that") we choose "Hold on tight with two hands."
Hey, I do this as well.







I had no idea I was following a certain school of thought! I just noticed that it worked better.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Now, this makes a lot of sense to me. Actually, I guess I do this as well--if DD hits me, my usual response is actually not "We don't hit" but "Hitting hurts mama." I also tell DD that whining hurts my ears and makes me feel cranky. Interestingly, my DH feels that this is NOT okay and that I am erring too much on the side of making DD "responsible" for my feelings. It seems like it could be a fine line to walk, to share without attributing blame. And couldn't it sort of become semantics after a point? Is "Whining makes me feel cranky" any different than "When you whine, it makes me cranky" to a 2-year-old, I wonder?

I don't use the phrase x "makes me feel" y. I use the phrase "I feel x when y happens". The difference is that I am owning x (my reaction) to y. The other implies that the y *causes* me to feel x. Do you see the difference? It is subtle. More specifically, the origin of my reaction is from me, not externally generated. Others may feel differently than I about the same action. 'I feel aggitated when I hear whining'. Rather than 'whining makes me feel aggitated'. Someone else may not feel aggitated by whining. The whining doesn't *cause* aggitation. *My* perception of whining causes me to feel aggitated.

And "when you whine, it makes me feel cranky" is NOT different, in my opinion, than "whining makes me feel cranky". I believe that the catalyst for my feelings is internal, not external.

This is different than something that physically hurts, however. Whining _can_ physically hurt the ears. Just as hitting or kicking, pinching, biting, pulling hair, screaming, etc. can *hurt*. Then the actual action is the catalyst of the feeling of pain. But I don't attribute the action to the person; that is irrelevant, in my opinion. And I am responsible and empowered to choose my own reaction to my experience of pain too. I would still use *I* messages though, rather than the third person 'hitting hurts mama'. 'Ouch, that hurts *me*.' Or, '*I* don't like being kicked.' Or, 'It hurts when *I* am pinched.'

Does that make it as clear as mud?







Basically, if an action creates pain, I am comfortable attributing the action with my physical sensation. If I feel some emotion (angry, sad, upset, sorry, scared, frustrated) when something happens (the wall is hit, the things are knocked off the shelf, the glass is spilled, the plant is kicked over, etc.), I own my internal reaction about my experience of the event. 'I am upset that the wall is hit; I am frustrated that the books need to be picked up; I am impatient that the spill needs to be cleaned up; I am aggravated when a plant is kicked over', etc, if I feel strongly. Mostly, I would just address working together to resolve the problem. 'Let's carry the chair together so that it doesn't bang the wall', etc. without discussing my emotional experience. These reactions seem more severe than I would normally experience these events, unless they were repetitive and seemed intentional. Then I would want to find out the underlying cause (unmet needs) of the actions.

With other's reactions to painful events (who are unable to advocate for themselves), such as the dog is hit, the cat's tail is pulled, the baby is pushed over, the boy is pinched, etc. I would focus on their feelings and needs, not my emotional experience. 'The dog is cowering and seems scared and hurt; the cat ran off because she is probably frightened; the baby is crying and seems upset; the boy looks mad and hurt.'

Personally, I believe this models personal responsibility for my own emotional reactions. And it offers information about my (or other's) internal experience of different life events. And since I believe that children are inherently social, they do not naturally desire to do things that cause others pain or to impact others negatively. So, I don't believe that they do things intentionally to cause pain and are self-correcting when they become aware of the (unintended) effects of their actions, if they are able. One's own needs for "HALT" issues can overcome one's social impulses. And identifying these underlying needs can facilitate self-control significantly from my experience.

Quote:

I also wonder about not doing it in front of others. This seems tricky. What if most of your parenting, for whatever reason, were taking place in front of others? What do you do if your child hits you in the supermarket?
An interesting dilemma. Within a family or publicly, it would seem possible to still own one's own reactions since *I* statements are not shaming or blaming. This hasn't been an obstacle for us. And in the supermarket, I might note other's reactions as an observation that I share. 'That lady keeps looking up whenever there is a loud sound, perhaps it is disturbing her. I know it is hard to read labels when there is a lot going on nearby too.' Giving information without *expecting* compliance. Just as I might note 'Aunt Nina looks sad that you don't like the game she gave you. I bet she thought you would like to play it together. Maybe she can show you how to play later if you'd like.' 'Wow. You really can't stand green beans! I love green beans and I am glad Martha cooked them. Perhaps, you would like to wait for dessert or have some salad.' These are not corrective interactions. They are giving information and advocating for eaches' feelings and needs.

Quote:

I am not asking these questions to be combative--hope it doesn't come off that way. I find the model you are talking about makes more sense to me than simply modelling without offering thoughts on how behavior affects others. I am trying to see the shades of gray.
The key is being true to oneself. Authenticity and accountability.









HTH, Pat


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

'how could owning responsibility for one's internal emotional experience disempower one'? Actually, I find that it doesn't at all.
Neither do I.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

What do you do if your child hits you in the supermarket?
Same thing applies. Not admonishing, demanding or expecting, just telling the child how you feel. "that hurts", or "I like it when you're gentle with me/your friends". Regarding the topic of manners, well that one is slightly different because manners are a judgment call I won't place on my own child. I am polite and therefore my child will be. I would never tell her to say thank you to someone, in fact, I have said to my child what my father used to say to me (in private), "Most people like you to say thank you but I don't need to hear it from you, and I certainly don't care how others perceive you." And I was still polite at an early age via modelling my father, as is my child now.

Quote:

Is "Whining makes me feel cranky" any different than "When you whine, it makes me cranky" to a 2-year-old, I wonder?
All these were well answered by scubamama, so I just wanted to concur. These two are the same. A _different_ spin would be, "I _feel_ cranky when you whine." Saying you _make_ me (insert feeling) is assigning blame for a reaction your perception of events has elicited.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I just came back because something just happened with my daughter that reminded me of something that works for us. Asking Why. As in, "why did you hit me?"; "Why did you empty my sauce bottle down the sink? I wanted that to stay in the bottle." Even though we can get a blank stare as a response, time has shown me that it gets the brain cogs moving. Things I've totally forgotten her doing I have heard her correcting others for, like, "Mama! Daddy is pouring stuff down the sink! Why are you doing that daddy?"


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Hm. Seems a little semantic to me, I think. I could see how an adult might see the difference between "Whining makes me feel cranky" and "I feel cranky when I hear whining" (although, honestly, they sound awfully similar to me) but I can't see how they would sound any different to a child, really.







Perhaps it's less about the words and more about the other stuff--body language, tone, etc. Or maybe you are doing this more to set a precedent for when the child is older? I feel like I would spend forever standing around trying to reformulate my throughts, though. (And I say this as someone who does use "When you do X, I feel Y" within my marriage.) You'd be okay with "I feel cranky when I hear whining," but not "I feel cranky when you whine", right? Is "When you...I..." not okay in your opinion?

I aksed about the supermarket because scubamama said she wouldn't share how her child's actions made her feel in front of others, which seems like it would be very complicated to me. I don't think any of what you are talking about her could be called shaming, so my feeling would be that it is okay to talk about these things in public.

Quote:

I am polite and therefore my child will be.
I still rather take issue with this. Maybe it's just too soon to say, but we are quite polite with DD and she is only rarely conventionally polite with anyone.
She does say "Bless you" consistently, but that's about it! However, she is only 23 months. (But very, very verbal and talkative.)

I think saying "If you do X then your child will automatically do X in imitation" is a bit oversimplified. IMO, it's sort of like saying, "If you are a peaceful and nonviolent person, your child will never hit," and I think most people are aware that this is unfortunately not true.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Same thing applies. Not admonishing, demanding or expecting, just telling the child how you feel. "that hurts", or "I like it when you're gentle with me/your friends".

As a point of the nuance.







I wouldn't say "I like" something unless I was expressing appreciation. I wouldn't give 'positive direction' ("I like it when you do xyz"). It seems to feel like praise (manipulative) to me. I especially wouldn't say it regarding how another person (or animal) was treated. I might state that I feel sad when another is hurting. But not indicate an expectation/desire for a specific behavior unless it was directly about how I desired to be treated.

As appreciation, it would be "_I_ like having the toys picked up off the floor, thank you for your help." Rather than "I like *when you* pick up the toys off the floor" which seems to convey an expectation.

Quote:

Regarding the topic of manners, well that one is slightly different because manners are a judgment call I won't place on my own child. I am polite and therefore my child will be. I would never tell her to say thank you to someone, in fact, I have said to my child what my father used to say to me (in private), "Most people like you to say thank you but I don't need to hear it from you, and I certainly don't care how others perceive you." And I was still polite at an early age via modelling my father, as is my child now.
This is an interesting point. I state that xyz is a 'convention' as a proactive provision of information. But, I don't convey that "it" is an expectation of mine. For instance, I have said 'some people consider it rude to not cover your mouth when you cough'. I have said 'I prefer that you cover your mouth when you cough near my face.' Or, 'the convention is to send a thank you note when we receive a gift.' I do consider this different than instructing, since compliance or expectations are not imposed.

Quote:

All these were well answered by scubamama, so I just wanted to concur. These two are the same. A _different_ spin would be, "I _feel_ cranky when you whine." Saying you _make_ me (insert feeling) is assigning blame for a reaction your perception of events has elicited.
I am confused. You are indicating that your third ("different") spin is the same meaning as the two original examples, correct? I believe that all three examples convey blame for one's emotions onto others.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
I just came back because something just happened with my daughter that reminded me of something that works for us. Asking Why. As in, "why did you hit me?"; "Why did you empty my sauce bottle down the sink? I wanted that to stay in the bottle." Even though we can get a blank stare as a response, time has shown me that it gets the brain cogs moving. Things I've totally forgotten her doing I have heard her correcting others for, like, "Mama! Daddy is pouring stuff down the sink! Why are you doing that daddy?"









I don't ask "why?", because it seems to imply an expectation of a different behavior. I generally ask more open ended information about 'what happened?' rather than about intent 'why did you xyz?'.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Hm. Seems a little semantic to me, I think. I could see how an adult might see the difference between "Whining makes me feel cranky" and "I feel cranky when I hear whining" (although, honestly, they sound awfully similar to me) but I can't see how they would sound any different to a child, really.







Perhaps it's less about the words and more about the other stuff--body language, tone, etc. Or maybe you are doing this more to set a precedent for when the child is older? I feel like I would spend forever standing around trying to reformulate my throughts, though. (And I say this as someone who does use "When you do X, I feel Y" within my marriage.) You'd be okay with "I feel cranky when I hear whining," but not "I feel cranky when you whine", right? Is "When you...I..." not okay in your opinion?

"When you do x, I feel y" is not as full of blame connotation as 'you are a slob' for instance. But, the responsibility of "I feel" is placed on "you" (other). Personally, I do not do this. I say "when xyz happens, I feel abc." There is no "you" in the equation for my emotional experience.







Using *I* statements WITHOUT *you* statements is my objective because I am not conveying anything about the *you* (other) that needs to be included in the statements. I am confident that both ds and dh ARE concerned with how I experience xyz and care that I feel abc, irrelevant of placing any onus or *you* into the information. Do you see how different it seems if I say 'I am frustrated when there are dishes left in the sink' (the problem is that there are dishes in the sink) from 'I feel frustrated when you leave dishes in the sink'? (the problem implied is that *you* left them and *you* are responsible for my feelings and *you* need to change/solve this in order for me not to feel frustrated).

Quote:

I aksed about the supermarket because scubamama said she wouldn't share how her child's actions made her feel in front of others, which seems like it would be very complicated to me. I don't think any of what you are talking about her could be called shaming, so my feeling would be that it is okay to talk about these things in public.
Perhaps, I didn't clarify adequately. I would state how I felt about my experience, but not attribute my feelings onto our child. Neither in public or private. But I am comfortable sharing my feelings in public, because they are about *ME*, not about ds. I wouldn't share how I would prefer to be addressed in public as this seems more corrective. However, it is merely boundary setting. I would do that privately such that a "breach" wasn't implied in front of others.

Quote:

I still rather take issue with this. Maybe it's just too soon to say, but we are quite polite with DD and she is only rarely conventionally polite with anyone. She does say "Bless you" consistently, but that's about it! However, she is only 23 months. (But very, very verbal and talkative.)

I think saying "If you do X then your child will automatically do X in imitation" is a bit oversimplified. IMO, it's sort of like saying, "If you are a peaceful and nonviolent person, your child will never hit," and I think most people are aware that this is unfortunately not true.
Personally our son's future behavior isn't something that I project about, neither with positive expectations or any expectation. I am confident that he will conduct himself in the manner in which he needs to when he becomes aware that he needs to. But, I don't need him to behave in any specific manner, except as his behavior impacts me. And I discuss that impact in the present, not with some eye on some future need of mine or others.

Pat


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Politeness, gratefulness, and saying the "magic" words....wow!







It's been an interesting thread to read.
I'll add that I, also, cannot stand an adult telling a child to say "thank you".....it just reeks of total disrespect for everyone involved.
And WHAT kind of adult would ever get upset because a child did not say "thank you"?

I have taught my children that when they are feeling a certain way, the appropriate actions that go with those feelings. Gratefulness=thank you or a card, etc. Anger=no hitting, but fine to yell, cry, find a non-violent outlet or ask for help redirecting. Hurt=get help and then cry as much as you need to.

I have witnessed honest gratitude from my children, many times. Their whole body just lights up, they look you sincerely in the eye and say "Thank you for ____."

Politeness...I always get compliments on how polite my children are and I know that comes from modeling the behavior of the people around them.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Do you see how different it seems if I say 'I am frustrated when there are dishes left in the sink' (the problem is that there are dishes in the sink) from 'I feel frustrated when you leave dishes in the sink'?








It doesn't seem that different to me--and I work as a writer and editor, so I'd like to think I have an ear for verbal nuance. I mean, I can see a difference, but it does seem very subtle. I don't personally think a child would pick up on it. This is not to say that I don't see the point you are trying to make.

Quote:

And WHAT kind of adult would ever get upset because a child did not say "thank you"?
Often, the "kind of person" who gets upset when not thanked is a person of an older generation. I plan to teach my children that different cultures and different generations have different expectations surrounding various politeness "conventions" (and I will definitely explain to my child that these are conventions). It may not be a big deal not to write my laid-back brother a formal thank you note for a Christmas gift, but I happen to know that it IS a big deal not to write one to my elderly grandmother. Rather than sending the message to my respected and venerated grandmother that her feelings on this issue don't matter and we don't care if she feels respected or not--yes, I'll ask and then require that a thank-you be written, if need be.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
And since I believe that children are inherently social, they do not naturally desire to do things that cause others pain or to impact others negatively. So, I don't believe that they do things intentionally to cause pain and are self-correcting when they become aware of the (unintended) effects of their actions, if they are able. One's own needs for "HALT" issues can overcome one's social impulses. And identifying these underlying needs can facilitate self-control significantly from my experience.

I believe this is what is at the heart of this argument, at least for me. While I agree that children are inherently social, I DO NOT believe that providing enough information will stop them from desiring to do things that cause other pain or impact other negatively. I believe that empathy and compassion are mature emotions that children are not developmentally capable of most of the time. They require a lot of practice, and from what I've read about the brain development of children, they apparently take some brain growth and physical maturity as well.

I mean, you can feed a two year old a perfectly balanced healthy snack, make sure they get enough rest, make sure they're perfectly aware they're loved, etc., and they're still not going to want to share their favorite toy. I have never met a toddler who isn't selfish, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Like CrescentaLuna said, it's unfair to expect children to have adult reactions, or that they won't want to experiment with being mean, vindictive, rude. They have the right to, and I believe we also owe it to them to react appropriately to that behavior, so that they can confirm that it is not accepted.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

"Whining makes me feel cranky" and "I feel cranky when I hear whining" (although, honestly, they sound awfully similar to me) but I can't see how they would sound any different to a child, really.
In the first one, you are saying that you can be made to feel a certain way - without any _choice_ or preconceived notions attached. The second one implies that you feel a certain way, and your reasons are your own. The word *makes* is the word we should focus on here. If a child says, "You make me cranky" as opposed to "I feel cranky." You could feel a difference. The second one leads you to ask why, and a dialogue may ensue - simply from a lack of pointed blame = YOU MAKE me cranky. The first one is inciteful. Even as adults, "semantics" mean an awful lot, and children are much more sensitive than we give them credit for. Not only now, but as they grow, we instill in them all these things, such as responsibility for their own feelings - all these things are going in, even as a newborn. Putting things down to semantics is underestimating the power of language. Removing the word MAKE changes everything. I don't _make_ my child feel anything, she feels a certain way because of the way she is seeing the situation. She doesn't _make_ me feel anything other than how I react in a situation based on my preconditioned filters. My husband doesn't _make_ me upset, I am upset because of many many past conceived conditions his words/actions bring up for me. Hence why in a room of ten people, one sentence can elicit ten different emotional reactions - dependant on their own internal conditions.

Quote:

You'd be okay with "I feel cranky when I hear whining," but not "I feel cranky when you whine", right? Is "When you...I..." not okay in your opinion?
Personally, I would ask why they are whining, instead of correcting, or better yet, ask _myself_ why whining bothers me so much - my DD is a child after all.

Quote:

I still rather take issue with this. Maybe it's just too soon to say, but we are quite polite with DD and she is only rarely conventionally polite with anyone.
She does say "Bless you" consistently, but that's about it! However, she is only 23 months.
And she may not be polite for a long time, she is too young. She means well.

Quote:

I think saying "If you do X then your child will automatically do X in imitation" is a bit oversimplified. IMO, it's sort of like saying, "If you are a peaceful and nonviolent person, your child will never hit," and I think most people are aware that this is unfortunately not true.
Modelling behavior isn't to produce a polite, thoughtful, gentle 5 year old, this is where people are expecting too much. Modelling behavior is to produce a capable *adult* who can function well and effectively in the world on their own.

If a boy is brought up by alcoholic, abusing, rude parents, he may (and often is) be a wonderful, polite child. But as an adult, well, watch out. Children will be children, but adults will be their parents, and THAT is why what we do now is so important to the _adult_ within our children, not the child in our children.

Quote:

I wouldn't say "I like" something unless I was expressing appreciation. I wouldn't give 'positive direction' ("I like it when you do xyz"). It seems to feel like praise (manipulative) to me.
It has been well proven that children want to do what is expected of them. Also that they do what gives them attention, esp positive attention. It would be manipulative in another context perhaps, but saying truthfully that you prefer it when they are gentle is positive reinforcement of preferred behavior. And for myself, mostly reserved for situations of personal danger/threat, not social grace.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Rather than sending the message to my respected and venerated grandmother that her feelings on this issue don't matter and we don't care if she feels respected or not--yes, I'll ask and then require that a thank-you be written, if need be.

Would it be reasonable to write a Thank-You yourself, if your GM's feelings are important to _you_?

I suppose this is kinda foreign to me at this point in my life beacuse I grew up in such a rediculously abusive environment that at some point I just stopped being able to care how anyone who was manipulating me felt. Well, about whatever they are manipualting to get...

When my GM manipulates I feel no compulsion to obey her wishes. I do feel sad for her that she feels out of place in today's conventions. But if she will only feel respected if I properly force DS into compliance "like I'm supposed to" (a recent issue for us was my allowing him to touch things that weren't "toys"), well, she's not gonna feel respected. I cannot take responsibility for making the world be how manipulators want it to be - to "make them happy". It's crazy-making.

Maybe I just feel that way beacuse I have experienced this at its hyperbolic extreme. Perhaps in lower doses, accommodating other's "wishes" (manipulation) seems a little easier - or murkier.

In either case, my son will not be required or expected to perform anything to please anyone. He will be given information and feedback and make his own choices. I eventually had to start making my own choices to save my sanity, and I still have conflict with my family-of-origin because I demand to be authentic. DS will not have to have this conflict with me.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I suppose this is kinda foreign to me at this point in my life beacuse I grew up in such a rediculously abusive environment that at some point I just stopped being able to care how anyone who was manipulating me felt. Well, about whatever they are manipualting to get...

When my GM manipulates I feel no compulsion to obey her wishes. I do feel sad for her that she feels out of place in today's conventions. But if she will only feel respected if I properly force DS into compliance "like I'm supposed to" (a recent issue for us was my allowing him to touch things that weren't "toys"), well, she's not gonna feel respected. I cannot take responsibility for making the world be how manipulators want it to be - to "make them happy". It's crazy-making.

But how can abiding by the social contract and showing elders respect mean that we are being manipulated? My dh most likely expects me to give him a kiss and tell him hello when he comes home from work, yet when I do, I don't feel that he has manipulated me into obeying his wishes. Now I guess I don't know your whole situation, though I did read a lot of your other thread about your problems with your family of origin, but I just don't think you can assume that someone is trying to manipulate you into writing a thank you note by giving you a gift.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
But how can abiding by the social contract and showing elders respect mean that we are being manipulated? My dh most likely expects me to give him a kiss and tell him hello when he comes home from work, yet when I do, I don't feel that he has manipulated me into obeying his wishes. Now I guess I don't know your whole situation, though I did read a lot of your other thread about your problems with your family of origin, but I just don't think you can assume that someone is trying to manipulate you into writing a thank you note by giving you a gift.

But what if you didn't want to give him a kiss but felt like you had too because he woul dbe upset if you didn't? That is manipulative.

If it matters to ME that grandma gets a thank you card and dd is not compelled to write you, then it is up to ME to carry it out. I write a lot of thank you cards and do not particularly enjoy writing them. But I do enjoy making people feel good about a gift they gave me. I enjoy that MORE than I dis-enjoy writing the card, so I do it. But that is MY choice. I do not make dh write thank you cards. I do not make dd write thank you cards. She has watched me write a card for a gift she recieved and asked about it. she then decided she wanted to "write" one too and did that I included in the card. But that was her choice.

I cannot imagine how you can even force someone to write a thank you card anyway.

And frankly, if grandma is going to disown us for lack of a thank you card, well that is her problem.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*

I mean, you can feed a two year old a perfectly balanced healthy snack, make sure they get enough rest, make sure they're perfectly aware they're loved, etc., and they're still not going to want to share their favorite toy. I have never met a toddler who isn't selfish, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Like CrescentaLuna said, it's unfair to expect children to have adult reactions, or that they won't want to experiment with being mean, vindictive, rude. They have the right to, and I believe we also owe it to them to react appropriately to that behavior, so that they can confirm that it is not accepted.

I agree 100% that we should react appropriately. The difference is what "appropriate" means to different people. I do express my displeaser at being treated rudely in much the same fashion as Scubamama. I do that with dh, other family members, the general public.....and dd. I try to treat (or "correct") dd is the same way that I want to be treated and strive to treat everyone else. That is all.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I've been trying to post a response, but DS needs me right now...

I'll be back later...


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I don't use the phrase x "makes me feel" y. I use the phrase "I feel x when y happens". The difference is that I am owning x (my reaction) to y. The other implies that the y *causes* me to feel x. Do you see the difference? It is subtle. More specifically, the origin of my reaction is from me, not externally generated. Others may feel differently than I about the same action. 'I feel aggitated when I hear whining'. Rather than 'whining makes me feel aggitated'. Someone else may not feel aggitated by whining. The whining doesn't *cause* aggitation. *My* perception of whining causes me to feel aggitated.

I'm lovin all the discussion about this. I totally see the difference, and I've always tried to speak this way to ds. I still fall short, I believe, but this discussion is really very helpful. Thanks


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Unless the child is too young to read and write, I don't think a note by a parent replaces a note by the child, in the "social contract." One might argue that it should, but I know this would not be what my grandmother wanted.

Quote:

I cannot imagine how you can even force someone to write a thank you card anyway.
When I was a child, my mother would say, "Please sit down and write a thank-you note to your grandmother today." She'd then probably expect to see it sitting on the table to be mailed. I suppose that if I didn't do it by the end of the day, she would have asked where it was, and probably told me to do it right then. I would have done it. It wouldn't have been a big issue.







By the way, my mother no longer reminds me to write thank-you notes and I still do.

I did need to be reminded, too. I would have forgotten on my own--and I can also tell you that I sincerely wouldn't have wanted to hurt her feelings.

Quote:

And frankly, if grandma is going to disown us for lack of a thank you card, well that is her problem.
My grandmother did not "disown" anyone, but I know that she has been upset and sad not to get thank-yous from some of her great-grandkids. These are presents sent through the mail, so at minimum an acknowledgment of their safe arrival seems needed to me. It is a big deal for her to shop and mail gifts at all at her age. I personally feel that avoiding upsetting her is worth the small price of asking my child to write a thank-you note. There are certainly things my own parents did that were wrong and degrading, but for heaven's sake, asking me to thank my grandmother for a nice gift was not one of them.


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## Apryl Srissa (Oct 1, 2005)

Start young! My two year old already says thank you and your welcom, often says please, says excuse me (ok, me scuze me lol). If you start when they are young and say it to them everytime, they just pick up on it and it seems natural. I think that is the hugest thing, to always say please and thank you to them, they will think that it is just the normal thing to do.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

OK. I'm short on time again, but I'll try to clarify what I was saying.

There is a marked difference between showing respect and succumbing to manipulation. To use an example from above, if my DH comes home and expects kisses to feel respected, great! I like kissing him. If he comes home to find me up to my elbows in poopy diaper, and then withholds affection or somehow mistreats me in response to (as "punishment" for) not kissing him at the door, that's manipulation. The next day the expectation is that I'll kiss him at the door in order to avoid being "punished".

Placating him is not the same thing as kissing him with the motivation that he feels how much I love and respect him.

Here's (approximately) where I see the line. Wanting some behavior from another person to feel respected starts being manipualtion the moment you demand another person accommodate you. Why does GM's feeling respected by getting a note override DS's feeling respected by getting to choose whether to write one? When one person is denied free choice, there is manipulation going on.

I think I can make an analogy that probably every woman will understand... You want DH to bring you surprise flowers. You don't want to ask DH to go buy the flowers b/c it takes out all the meaning behind DH thinking of you and how much you like irises... If you have to ask, it's just like delegating a task. You might as well just go buy them yourself. Telling him you want flowers kills all the meaning behind his gesture of getting you flowers.

Conversely, if I told DH to get me flowers if you ever want to see me naked again, one might argue that _I need flowers to feel loved and sexy_, but really I'm just holding one of his needs hostage. And it would certainly be manipulative.

So I never got just what the payoff was for anyone putting so much stock in another person's thank you note, or flowers... Or more importantly, why does anyone put so much stock in someone _not_ doing those things.

It goes back to the genuine thing... I want DH to genuinely want to surprise me with flowers. I want to genuinely thank someone if they do something nice. I highly resent if someone steals that opportunity from me - by demanding or raising the stakes so that my saying thank you implies I agree to placate them from "punishing" me.

I've been really distracted while writing this... hope it makes a little sense.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
But what if you didn't want to give him a kiss but felt like you had too because he woul dbe upset if you didn't? That is manipulative.

Well, then I guess my dh occasionally manipulates me. And I him. Because there are a lot of times that I treat him with respect and kindness even though I don't feel like it but know he expects it, and because I know he would be upset if I didn't. Friday night the kids were both sick, I was tired, I'd burned dinner, and he had to work late. When he got home, I FELT like yelling, "Where in the @#&* have you been? You're the only one who can give me a break around here, and I need one!" But instead, I guess he manipulated me into greeting him politely and comiserating about our crappy days. So I think that argument is a little bit ridiculous. Of course we don't always treat people the way we feel like treating them. Of couse we have to be "inauthentic" occasionally. It's an important skill to learn, not a stifling of the true self.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Nope. I would say authentically, 'I feel frustrated. I have had a long day. I really needed help with dinner and ds. Would you please call me next time if you need to be late so that I plan on leftovers or take out instead?' He'd still receive a kiss hello, because we greet each other that way.

I believe inauthenticity leads to resentments and disconnect in relationships. Just as cursing or calling names does. But I can still be authentically frustrated and respectfully request what I need.

Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Nope. I would say authentically, 'I feel frustrated. I have had a long day. I really needed help with dinner and ds. Would you please call me next time if you need to be late so that I plan on leftovers or take out instead?' He'd still receive a kiss hello, because we greet each other that way.

And he would probably have been offended if I had said that. But maybe I wasn't clear, it wasn't his fault he was late, and he couldn't call because he was working out of cel range. There was no one to blame, I just felt stressed out by the situation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I believe inauthenticity leads to resentments and disconnect in relationships. Just as cursing or calling names does. But I can still be authentically frustrated and respectfully request what I need.

Sure, sometimes it does. But sometimes, we can be authentically frustrated and keep it to ourselves. Or we can be authentically disappointed with our gift and smile and thank the giver anyway. Or we can be authentically disgusted by the disfiguring disease affecting the person helping us at the store, and we can hide our disgust. Many times, living in polite society requires a little more finesse than just respectfully and authentically expressing ourselves.


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## nadinem (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:

Well, good luck to ya. The irony is that you cannot show politeness if you are embarrassing the child (putting him on the spot) - even if it's in a "nice" voice. So you can't have it both ways. You either model or you coerce.

I just won't be doing that to my kids.
Reminding doesn't have to be embarrasing. It's more like coaching and done just as respectfully.

At two Christmas parties we coached our DD to go to the host and say "Thank you for the nice party." She says please and thank you a lot anyway, but wouldn't know that this is something to say thank you for or how to say it. After a quick coach, she said it and all was fine. If she got something from someone and a "thank-you" was called for (and it didn't happen), I'd quietly call her over and correct her "in private". Sometimes it makes sense to capture the moment with a "what do you say", prompting the thanks.

But in general DD is learning politeness slowly and in incremental steps. It's funny when she says to the dog "Anna, please move......t'anks".

And she's only 2 (will be 3 in Feb).


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Wow, great discussion. I love it when I read one post and think, "YEAH, that's right!" then read the next one and think, "Oh wait on, _she's_ got a point!"







I guess I do a little of both. Most of the time I am annoyingly authentic with my husband, then there are the times that I put myself aside to hear him. And I think that's how I see it, either I'm switched into my own energy or I'm tuned into others. Being authentic in either case is still a breeze. In my clinic, I've had patients come in and show me parts of their bodies which are behaving in shocking ways and I can't very well jump backwards declaring, "Good LORD, that's awful!" so I tune into their discomfort immediately and remove my "self" (selfish thoughts) from the picture and can deal with all kinds of issues very authentically. We are all more than one person inside, we are all more than one thought about an issue, we can choose which we will be and still be authentic people. Seeing things from the other person's perspective helps me.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Or we can be authentically disgusted by the disfiguring disease affecting the person helping us at the store, and we can hide our disgust
Woah I never feel that way when I see someone who is different than me. Sometimes I feel bad and wonder what happened, but I am not "disgusted".

I am authentic with my husband as well (getting back on topic)... Part of what makes our relationship so strong and so able to withstand any *rocky* times is that we are completely honest with eachother...

I just don't get how being false serves anyone? It is possible for one to be both authentic and gentle, or at least, calm.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Of couse we have to be "inauthentic" occasionally. It's an important skill to learn, not a stifling of the true self.

This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is *nothing* wrong with expressing your feelings.
ie- if my dd was terrified of clowns and someone gave her a clown for a gift and she started screaming histerically, I wouldn't force to use her "unathentic feeling skill" in that situation. Or any situation for that matter.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Of course we don't always treat people the way we feel like treating them. Of couse we have to be "inauthentic" occasionally. It's an important skill to learn, not a stifling of the true self..

Absolutely. Score one for Tact! Not to mention kindness and Diplomacy. It is amazing how many positive synonyms this particular skill has.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
But sometimes, we can be authentically frustrated and keep it to ourselves. . . . Many times, living in polite society requires a little more finesse than just respectfully and authentically expressing ourselves.

I am really surprised, shocked even, how unpopular this idea is here! And that so many adults and parents have little to no value for this skill. In fact many have stated the opposite. That an authentic expression of the current emotion is preferable every time.
Manners areant inauthentic. They are an authentic expression of courtesy.
I guess I just think that humans have more layers in operation at one time than their immediate most superficial emotional response. So you can choose at any given time to display the AUTHENTIC response to whichever motivation is most important at the time. These can be emotional, social, intellectual etc. .


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Woah I never feel that way when I see someone who is different than me. Sometimes I feel bad and wonder what happened, but I am not "disgusted".

Well, whatever, I guess I'm not all that enlightened. But I would imagine that you wouldn't express your "feeling bad" or anything else. I would imagine that you would just pretend like there was nothing different about them. Or maybe not?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I am authentic with my husband as well (getting back on topic)... Part of what makes our relationship so strong and so able to withstand any *rocky* times is that we are completely honest with eachother...

Completely honest? Really? So you've never held your tongue about anything? You've never felt that, just for a minute, that your husband was the most irritating, obtuse person on earth, but just smiled and nodded and kept your mouth shut?

Well, I don't think that would work very well in my relationship. We're honest with each other, to a point. But I am very glad that we're not completely honest with each other. I don't think our relationship could survive that.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is *nothing* wrong with expressing your feelings.
ie- if my dd was terrified of clowns and someone gave her a clown for a gift and she started screaming histerically, I wouldn't force to use her "unathentic feeling skill" in that situation. Or any situation for that matter.

Have you read the rest of the posts? I don't think a fear is exactly the situation we're referring to. I think it would be more of a situation where your dd loved clowns, and wanted one, but someone got her the red one instead of the blue one. And then she started screaming hysterically. How would you feel about that expression of feelings?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I am really surprised, shocked even, how unpopular this idea is here! And that so many adults and parents have little to no value for this skill. In fact many have stated the opposite. That an authentic expression of the current emotion is preferable every time.
Manners areant inauthentic. They are an authentic expression of courtesy.
I guess I just think that humans have more layers in operation at one time than their immediate most superficial emotional response. So you can choose at any given time to display the AUTHENTIC response to whichever motivation is most important at the time. These can be emotional, social, intellectual etc. .

Well said!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

I think it would be more of a situation where your dd loved clowns, and wanted one, but someone got her the red one instead of the blue one. And then she started screaming hysterically. How would you feel about that expression of feelings?
I know you didn't ask me







: but can I give this a shot too? I don't have anyone in my life, no one at all, that would expect a child who didn't get what they wanted to react in a polite manner. If and when that does happen, that is the blessed surprise, not the expected response. All my family and all my friends, even those without children, smile gently in response to a negative reaction - to their own children and others. I find it difficult to believe there are more than a minority of people out there who do not share this. Perhaps some colony of Grinches or something, but real people like all of us here? I won't believe it.

It seems we are evaluating our own self worth as parents by how others view our children. If our children are not polite to the shopkeeper, oh lord, how will that shopkeeper view me? So we put our children through the mill to appease a bunch of people we wouldn't know if they sat on our chest to save face and make sure our little darlings are a crop of sweet, appreciative, thankful grateful apologetic three year old angels. Gag.

I know when gratitude doesn't come to me I don't feel badly or hurt in any way. My brother's children didn't say much or express much at all, and when given gifts, would just open it and put it to one side without a word. I find the joy in the giving, not in the receiving of gratitude. As those children got older they had absorbed the norms of social grace from the adults around them and expressed thanks. Either way I don't care, but what is most beautiful about their gratitude now is knowing it comes from inside them, not coersion or "training".


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Wait, who said being polite wasn't a valuable skill? I certainly never did. All I am saying is that I won't coach, or remind, or train, or "take aside" or nudge, or whatever other nice word people want to use for force to ensure my child is polite --- to me it is kind of like saying that you really hate groups that spread hate.

I am not going to do something that I consider rude and disrespectful, to ensure that my child is not acting rude or disrespectful....and yes...."what do we saaaaaayyyyy" and all that other business to me, is disrespectful. My child won't be a trained parrot.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Manners areant inauthentic. They are an authentic expression of courtesy. I guess I just think that humans have more layers in operation at one time than their immediate most superficial emotional response. So you can choose at any given time to display the AUTHENTIC response to whichever motivation is most important at the time.

Hmmm. This is starting to sound similar what I was saying pages ago... Could we be coming to some agreement??


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Hmmm. This is starting to sound similar what I was saying pages ago... Could we be coming to some agreement??

I was thinking the same thing........


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Wait, who said being polite wasn't a valuable skill? I certainly never did. All I am saying is that I won't coach, or remind, or train, or "take aside" or nudge, or whatever other nice word people want to use for force to ensure my child is polite --- to me it is kind of like saying that you really hate groups that spread hate.

I am not going to do something that I consider rude and disrespectful, to ensure that my child is not acting rude or disrespectful....and yes...."what do we saaaaaayyyyy" and all that other business to me, is disrespectful. My child won't be a trained parrot.

It was not you I was responding to. It was a pp who said

Quote:

This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings.
I didnt think to quote two posts at the same time in my PP.
It is this sentiment, which has been expressed in several ways by different posters I am discussing.
That the Authentic emotional response is the only authentic response and a polite response that is inauthentic is a betrayal of self. It is this idea I object to strongly and find quite contrary to my own values.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Hmmm. This is starting to sound similar what I was saying pages ago... Could we be coming to some agreement??

No I dont think so. Because it has been argued that authentic manners are ONLY authentic when the emotional response is in agreement. (I dont knwo if this was you). And I disagree heartily with this.
You can think "I really hate this dumb gift" authentically and say "Thank you very much" authentically at the same time and still be authentic to yourself.

And certainly I disagree in the nature of childrens embarassment and parents role in teaching manners.
As such, while we may share similar sentiments on how courtesy may be authentic. I am afraid there is not much similar between our POVs.


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

Hello Veronique







I have a wonderful cousin named Veronique.

I haven't read any of the responses (no time to read through that many)

With our son we did what felt natural. He began saying please as early as he could talk. He was copying us. I think the best way to 'teach' manners is to be the model for your child. DH and I are fairly polite in nature so our children are the same. In my experience, the moms I know who constantly harp on their children to say "please" and "thank you" are the ones with children who don't say it on their own and/or who roll their eyes when their mom tries to make them say it. I would rather my child model dh and I and also understand the meaning behind the words.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Veronique*
My son is still quite young to learn about manners etc. but I'd still like some advice on teaching him 'thank-you, good morning," etc.
My SIL seems to always be telling her kids (ages 5 and 9) to say please and thank-you, but they never do!
They come to my house, don't greet me, open the fridge, take a drink of pop from the bottle and sit down on the sofa. They find the remote control, flick on the TV, eat their bag of chips they've brought in and when they're done with their snack, the bag goes on the floor and the hands are wiped on my cushions.







:
Anyways, all the while this is going on, their mom is reminding them: "Say hello to your Aunt Vero....Ask for permission if you want a drink.....put your feet down....saying thank-you....put the bag in the garbage....wash your hands...."
Her kids are not bad kids, but they just don't get how to act in someone's house. It seems as though my SIL is trying to teach them proper manners, but they just simply ignore her.
I really don't want my DS to act like this! How do I instill these values and when do I start?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maman*Musique*
Hello Veronique







With our son we did what felt natural. He began saying please as early as he could talk. He was copying us. I think the best way to 'teach' manners is to be the model for your child. DH and I are fairly polite in nature so our children are the same. In my experience, the moms I know who constantly harp on their children to say "please" and "thank you" are the ones with children who don't say it on their own and/or who roll their eyes when their mom tries to make them say it. I would rather my child model dh and I and also understand the meaning behind the words.

I just wanted to comment on this as a parent of an older child.
I am one of those super polite types. Like with a brief exchange at the convenience store there are several pleases and thank yous just as I pay for my Dr Pepper. I "Thank" everything. And I "I'm sorry" everythign too. I dont have to be guilty to be sorry. I can be sorry somebody got hurt even if I wanst involved. I can be sorry to accidentally violate somebody's personal space by passing too closely etc. . . it is just me. It is who I am and the type of person I want to be.
Anyway, hearing this all the time, my kids used Please and Thank you and Excuse Me and Sorry just as soon as they started to talk.
My dd is 2 and if she drops a toy she says "sorry" to the toy.
If my ds2 coughs, or burps he covers his mouth and says "excuse me"
All of this with no coaching on my part.
WE have done some coaching prior to new experiences to prepare them and help them to feel at ease (they are 2, 2, and 3). (Ok so when you sit on Santa's lap, say "I want" and then tell himw hat you want, and then say "Thank You" . I do not tell them in the moment , but I find that letting them know what is expected of them puts them at ease and they dont freeze up)
Ok well the same was true with my oldest. She was the most polite toddler and preschooler I ever saw.
Then she started preschool at 4 and kindergarden at age 5 and her models changed.
Her manners started declining rapidly at that point. I STILL have the same level of manners that I ever had, but she was no longer imitating only me.
So while she needed nothign other than modeling to learn excellent manners. Having been introduced to new and conflicting models required a higher level of expectation that she continue to practice the manners she had already learned. At such a point I started usign "the look" and coaching her before situations.
She still shows better manners in some situations. (Christmas Eve with the entire family for example) and worse manners in others (at home with just me)
So while I have no doubt that a child can learn manners with modeling only. It is my experience that things can change, and even a well mannered 2 year old can behave like they were raised in a barn at 6.
Joline


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## Maman*Musique (May 13, 2005)

Point well taken









My son is almost 5 and my daughter is 16 months. My 5yo is in school and so far so good when it comes to being kind and polite. In fact, he just asked me for a cheese sandwich for lunch "cheese sandwich please" and after I made it he said "thanks for making me a sandwich mom" and "you're the greatest mama ever"







Of course he does not always say please and thank you. We don't make a big deal of it or ask him to do it. It just isn't that important to us, to be honest. Sometimes I do ask him if he *wants* to say thank you to someone (by whispering in his ear) for example, when someone gives him a gift or does something nice for him. He decides. It is a bit manipulative sure, but it feels ok to me. I don't fuss too much about such things because I have a LOT of other things to worry about and I haven't slept in 5yrs...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I just wanted to comment on this as a parent of an older child.
I am one of those super polite types. Like with a brief exchange at the convenience store there are several pleases and thank yous just as I pay for my Dr Pepper. I "Thank" everything. And I "I'm sorry" everythign too. I dont have to be guilty to be sorry. I can be sorry somebody got hurt even if I wanst involved. I can be sorry to accidentally violate somebody's personal space by passing too closely etc. . . it is just me. It is who I am and the type of person I want to be.
Anyway, hearing this all the time, my kids used Please and Thank you and Excuse Me and Sorry just as soon as they started to talk.
My dd is 2 and if she drops a toy she says "sorry" to the toy.
If my ds2 coughs, or burps he covers his mouth and says "excuse me"
All of this with no coaching on my part.
WE have done some coaching prior to new experiences to prepare them and help them to feel at ease (they are 2, 2, and 3). (Ok so when you sit on Santa's lap, say "I want" and then tell himw hat you want, and then say "Thank You" . I do not tell them in the moment , but I find that letting them know what is expected of them puts them at ease and they dont freeze up)
Ok well the same was true with my oldest. She was the most polite toddler and preschooler I ever saw.
Then she started preschool at 4 and kindergarden at age 5 and her models changed.
Her manners started declining rapidly at that point. I STILL have the same level of manners that I ever had, but she was no longer imitating only me.
So while she needed nothign other than modeling to learn excellent manners. Having been introduced to new and conflicting models required a higher level of expectation that she continue to practice the manners she had already learned. At such a point I started usign "the look" and coaching her before situations.
She still shows better manners in some situations. (Christmas Eve with the entire family for example) and worse manners in others (at home with just me)
So while I have no doubt that a child can learn manners with modeling only. It is my experience that things can change, and even a well mannered 2 year old can behave like they were raised in a barn at 6.
Joline


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

I agree when pp's have said to model the behavior from the beginning. My kids (2 and 4) say yes, please and no, thank you. They also say, "excuse me, please, but may I interrupt?" This is partly through modeling and partly because I gently remind them and ask them to repeat what I've reminded them that they've forgotten to say. Practice makes perfect. These behaviors of your relatives children suggest that manners are not "expected" at home, so are not played out outside of the home. We behave in front of our children and expect (gently) that they will behave in front of us in the manner that we also expect they'll behave in public. Being children, they don't every single time. But, it's pretty darn close! Good luck.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Hmmm. This is starting to sound similar what I was saying pages ago... Could we be coming to some agreement??

No I dont think so. (snip) I am afraid there is not much similar between our POVs.

Silly me. Don't know what I was thinking... Sorry.


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## nadinem (Feb 25, 2004)

This is going to sound like it's coming from way out in left field but here it goes.

I think it's very important to know your feelings. And to quote the Dalai Lama, "It's always a good idea to know the rules. That way, you know how to break them properly." And to quote my MIL, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
Our society as a whole has become less and less polite. If someone is rude to you, THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. In the "olden days" and I use that phrase loosely, if someone insulted me in front of my husband, he was expected to retailate. Now, if he retaliates, my husband is arrested for assault. People were polite because it served a greater interest and reduced overt conflicts.

So, the way I view it, it's important to know that the clown you wanted was red and the one you got was blue. It's important to know that the person who bought it for you thought they were doing a good thing. And if you don't say "thank you for the clown", you better have a darn good reason why you're going to hurt your Aunt Mary's feelings. And any discussion you have about it can be done in private, later (and I have no compunction about exchanging the gift after Christmas).
Gratiously accepting what the world gives you and learning to work with it instead of acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off is a valuable life skill that if I don't at least attempt to teach my children, I'll feel I'm doing them a disservice.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nadinem*
This is going to sound like it's coming from way out in left field but here it goes.

I think it's very important to know your feelings. And to quote the Dalai Lama, "It's always a good idea to know the rules. That way, you know how to break them properly." And to quote my MIL, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
Our society as a whole has become less and less polite. If someone is rude to you, THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. In the "olden days" and I use that phrase loosely, if someone insulted me in front of my husband, he was expected to retailate. Now, if he retaliates, my husband is arrested for assault. People were polite because it served a greater interest and reduced overt conflicts.

So, the way I view it, it's important to know that the clown you wanted was red and the one you got was blue. It's important to know that the person who bought it for you thought they were doing a good thing. And if you don't say "thank you for the clown", you better have a darn good reason why you're going to hurt your Aunt Mary's feelings. And any discussion you have about it can be done in private, later (and I have no compunction about exchanging the gift after Christmas).
Gratiously accepting what the world gives you and learning to work with it instead of acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off is a valuable life skill that if I don't at least attempt to teach my children, I'll feel I'm doing them a disservice.


Beautiful! You've said it SOOO well.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nadinem*
Gratiously accepting what the world gives you and learning to work with it instead of acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off is a valuable life skill that if I don't at least attempt to teach my children, I'll feel I'm doing them a disservice.

My God! Are we back to this again?

Anyone here advocating acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off? Anyone? Anyone?

No takers so far...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
My God! Are we back to this again?

Anyone here advocating acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off? Anyone? Anyone?

No takers so far...

Well, it was my perception that you beliebe you would be allowing yourself to be manipulated if you stifled your "true" feelings and "falsely" expressed a gratitude that did not exist. So if you're advocating to not do that, you're advocating making someone feel bad. No?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
My God! Are we back to this again?

Anyone here advocating acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off? Anyone? Anyone?

No takers so far...

yep:

Quote:

This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings....
And lets not forget all the talk about how it is more important to be honest and authentic than it is to be polite.

Not my cup of tea certainly


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Anyone here advocating acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off? Anyone? Anyone?
I am!

No, just kidding. I sense your frustration.

It is not an either/or situation. It is not either they politely say thank you on cue or they spit in the gift giver's face. There are shades of grey. Some children will say thank you, some will immediately look to their parents (because they know they will be told next how to "act", some will express dissapointment then get coached or told to say thank you, some will say they don't like it.

What is wrong with saying you don't like it anyway? I dunno, I guess my family is way weird or something because we are so honest with eachother despite all our respective "faults". Like for instance my mom bought my sister a sweater one Christmas...oh my goodness, we can just say "the sweater" and the whole family knows what we mean. My sister opened it (we were adults)...looked at my mom, back at the sweater...back to my mom....back to the sweater....and my mom and sister both broke out laughing so hard (because my mom realized it wasn't her style at all...) I am chuckling about it even now-- if everyone in that situation was not authentic, like if my sister said " Thank youuuuuuu!!!"...and moved on, or my mom got all huffy and bent out of shape about it -- we wouldn't have a bellyaching laugh every single Christmas when we talk about "the sweater"....

I mean, of course I will make allowances for 80 year old Grandmoms and the like, but I still won't force my child to say thank you. My point is, what is the point of doing anything if you can't be honest about it? Honesty doesn't neccessarily have to mean rudeness. In our family if someone gave our daughter a red shirt and she had wanted a blue shirt, I would politely thank them on her behalf (because I would be authentically thankful for thinking of them) ...and I would laugh and say, "next time you see this shirt, it will be blue" ...but that is just our sense of humor and people who know us get that....that is why everyone always puts gift reciepts in everyone's boxes... I mean, who are you getting the gift for, yourself or the person you are giving it to? I give people what I think they will like, what they have expressed interest in, heck, I even ask them what they want to avoid taking the time to buy something they didn't like...

Okay so you might read this and think, oh how rude! You should be grateful from the bottom of your heart for anything anyone ever gives you, ever!...and to a point, I am...but if the person loves me and I them, and we have an authentic relationship...I would think they would want my child to have the blue shirt she loves, rather than the red shirt she refuses to wear (just using an example)...

I am almost 30, so yeah, I can feel true gratitude for the thought someone took, and still not care for the gift...I don't expect a 4 year old to be thinking that critically. I am not saying that 4 year olds don't have empathy but I think most of us can agree that they like what they like, and that, coupled with lack of impulse control...or maybe, that they still have retained their inability to lie in the faces of others (like adults are so good at!) is what gives away their dissapointment-- and that is considered rude.

Oh well, still got going to force my daughter to say thank you.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
yep:

And lets not forget all the talk about how it is more important to be honest and authentic than it is to be polite.

Not my cup of tea certainly

Hmmmmm.... I can be honest, autentic, AND polite. You know why? Because I am adult that can see the effort or thought into a gift or gesture even if I do not like it. I will not say "Oh, I LOVE the sweater" if I do not because I do not lie. I do not want dd to lie either which is basically what your are asking your kids to do. What I will say is "Thank you so much Aunt Sally for all of the time and effort you put into this sweater. I really appreciate it! That color yellow is delightful!" All of which would be true. Children are not emotionally ready to handle disappointment in all cases and are not savvy enough to read the "manners" situation in all cases. I choose to allow dd to feel what she needs, express what she needs, and learn to handle it diplomatically as she grows (which might not happen until she is 16) without berating or embarrassing her in the process. You choose to ask your children to lie. If you are comfy with that, which you have stated over and over that you are, more power to you. But you keep hinting at some sort of dissatisfaction that anyone would raise their children without asking them to lie.

Not my cup of tea.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, Sarah, what can I say? You just totally don't understand me.

Johub, I don't see anywhere that MamaFromTheBoonies did anything of the sort - in that quote or elsewhere.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
You choose to ask your children to lie. If you are comfy with that, which you have stated over and over that you are, more power to you. But you keep hinting at some sort of dissatisfaction that anyone would raise their children without asking them to lie.

Not my cup of tea.

I totally get this sense as well.

We're obviously dealing with very different points of reference. I see no reason to continue. Go back and check out from page 6 if anyone cares what I think about this. It was covered there. I won't revisit it.

But speaking of tea... That sounds like a fabulous idea! I'm gonna go make a strong cup and enjoy every sip!


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

This is a very interesting thread, I'm on page 8 and I've been reading for days now.

**I don't have children, I just wanted to share some of my experiences from MY childhood.**

I have three sisters, dinners at our home were rather zooish with everyone reaching and grabbing and eating with elbows on the table and removing any offending foods from plates ie: peas. My parents are generally great, but, their table manners instruction ended at chewing with our mouths closed. I don't know what they were modelling, I actually don't remember.

I spent a LOT of time at my Aunt's house. I probably ate supper there three times a week. My Aunt and especially my Uncle were well mannered in their meal time behaviour. I didn't notice. I kept on reaching and grabbing for years. Finally, my Uncle said something to the effect of "don't they teach you manners at home?" I didn't get it. I had to be told to ask for something to be PASSED to me and to ask to be excused from the table. AFTER it was pointed out, I picked right up on it and needed only a few reminders.

Fast-forward to my first meal at my then boyfriends house at the age of 17- now my husband's parents' home - I was good at asking for things to be passed, but, (I can't believe that I'm actually typing this NOW) I picked out all of the peas from my future mother in law's stew and stuck them on my base plate. This, understandably, offended her.... and I was totally clueless about it until my boyfriend pointed it out AFTER supper.... was I embarrassed? YES. Did I EVER do that again? NO. Why? Because my actions and manners have an effect on people's opinions of me and I'd rather them think well of me.

What I'm saying is, while I do understand the point of not embarrassing children in front of the whole family if it can be helped, I do see the need for *instruction*.

Modelling was not enough, for me, and sometimes a reminder could be needed, I would have appreciated it if my parents had made a point of instructing me, in private, about certain manners, like, how to eat at a hosts table.

Very interesting thread.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
You choose to ask your children to lie. If you are comfy with that, which you have stated over and over that you are, more power to you. But you keep hinting at some sort of dissatisfaction that anyone would raise their children without asking them to lie.

Not my cup of tea.

Please, thank you and excuse me, etc. . . are not lies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aria*
Johub, I don't see anywhere that MamaFromTheBoonies did anything of the sort - in that quote or elsewhere.

MITB expressed very clearly that the very thought of teaching her child tact had her almost in tears:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamaintheboonies*
This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings

And I would like to also respond that I have no dissatisfaction with how others are raising their children. My concern is in the overarching reduction in manners in our society.
I had always attributed it to people who just didnt care to teach their children better. I have only NOW learned that it isnt just that the acts of courtesy arent taught, it is also true that some people are actually rejecting the whole idea of courtesy and manners.
My concern is not that some of you think manners are important but choose to only model them and not correct their children. Interesting, but not a concern to me.
But several people have commented so negatively towards the entire concept of social custom and manners etc. . . that it has shocked and surprised me. I woudl be just as shocked and surprised if we were discussing it in a way that had nothign to do with child raising.
Remembering to reply in socially appropriate ways has been maligned and called "parroting"
Even being able to reply in socially appropriate ways is relegated to "only if it is what their true authentic response is"
And there is the comment about teaching tact bringing tears.
I dont really care how others choose to raise their children.
But for such common courtesies to be discussed as if they are somehow squelching of the self and lying and inauthentic and every other thing.
Well, it is very interesting to me because while I have known people who just dont have any social graces. I have never spoken before now who had so little value for them.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

it is also true that some people are actually rejecting the whole idea of courtesy and manners.
Woah, I didn't get that from anyone's posts. Anyone's. Courtesy and manners are awesome imo. It is such a wonderful feeling when someone AUTHENTICALLY shows courtesy or gratitude. It doesn't mean much to me when someone says it as a canned response, or worse, a forced one.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up, especially as it relates to gifts...is that it is not just a situation where the child is put in the position to say thank you or whatever -- we have all been there...the gift giver (and everyone in the room) 's eyes are on the child and usually someone will ask "Do you liiikkkee itttt?!!" Do you instruct your children to lie then or what?

Oh and please don't take my comments out of context to attempt to prove your point. When an adult says a "socially acceptable response" they are CHOOSING to... I referred to "parroting" in terms of children, who aren't choosing to, but are being forced by "the look" or "the scowl" or by taking them aside, or by the lecture they know they will get later if they don't, or by the reminders...

Yes, if you expect your child to repeat what you have reminded them in the car on the way there to say, or taken them aside to say, or nudged them to say, or "reminded" them in front of everyone to say...then yeah, my comment still stands. I don't want a trained parrot. I want a child who thinks and feels for herself and I have faith enough in her abilities to trust that she will observe and learn appropriate behaviors and choose to use them if she is so inclined.

I mean, is it just that the people who "remind" want to hear the words? Is that it? I mean, it would be great if your child was thankful authentically, but even if they hate the gift or whatever, you just want to hear the appropriate words? Because if that is it, just say it...don't try to sell me on the fact that children who aren't forced to say thank you will turn into socially awkward heathens who blow their noses on other people's shirt tails or something.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Woah, I didn't get that from anyone's posts. Anyone's. Courtesy and manners are awesome imo. It is such a wonderful feeling when someone AUTHENTICALLY shows courtesy or gratitude. It doesn't mean much to me when someone says it as a canned response, or worse, a forced one.

Actualy this is a big part of what I am referring to. I think a show of truly inspired courtesy and gratitude is a great thing as well. However completely independantly. I am a big fan of the "canned response" .
When somebody gives you something you say "thank you". Not if you truly feel moved by appreciation. Not if you truly love it. But just because it is the "right thing to do".
There are many different scenarios for each and every expected "canned response" from "excuse me" to "I'm sorry" to "Please" etc. . . and I wont go into them but you get the idea.
I think there is inherent value in following these social customs for their own merit and not only when they are in line with the authentic feeling of the moment.
I just thought "everybody" felt that these were the right things to say at these given times. Some people dont because they werent taught or they grew up in a rough family. But I thought it was a very widely accepted value.
Thank you for giving me an example above so I didnt have to weed through and find one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Another thing that hasn't been brought up, especially as it relates to gifts...is that it is not just a situation where the child is put in the position to say thank you or whatever -- we have all been there...the gift giver (and everyone in the room) 's eyes are on the child and usually someone will ask "Do you liiikkkee itttt?!!" Do you instruct your children to lie then or what?.

If it were to happen to my child and they felt awkward (as I am sure they would) I would certainly help them work out after the fact what to happen next time. But IMO there is no already established canned response to somebody elses rudeness. (much the pity)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Oh and please don't take my comments out of context to attempt to prove your point. When an adult says a "socially acceptable response" they are CHOOSING to... I referred to "parroting" in terms of children, who aren't choosing to, but are being forced by "the look" or "the scowl" or by taking them aside, or by the lecture they know they will get later if they don't, or by the reminders...

Yes, if you expect your child to repeat what you have reminded them in the car on the way there to say, or taken them aside to say, or nudged them to say, or "reminded" them in front of everyone to say...then yeah, my comment still stands. I don't want a trained parrot. I want a child who thinks and feels for herself and I have faith enough in her abilities to trust that she will observe and learn appropriate behaviors and choose to use them if she is so inclined..

Why should I take your comment out of context. It speaks for itself.
I am happy to have a child who both thinks and feels for herself AND uses manners appropriately. Thank heavens it doesnt have to be an either or proposition.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I mean, is it just that the people who "remind" want to hear the words? Is that it? I mean, it would be great if your child was thankful authentically, but even if they hate the gift or whatever, you just want to hear the appropriate words? Because if that is it, just say it...don't try to sell me on the fact that children who aren't forced to say thank you will turn into socially awkward heathens who blow their noses on other people's shirt tails or something.

I am not sure about blowing their noses into shirttails. I have no opinion on the subject. And I also am not trying to "sell you" on my belief that children need more than modeling. Not my concern at all. If it works for you great.

And yes, for MY child. Regardless of whether they hate the gift, I expect them to say "Thank you" and regardless of whether they stepped on somebody's toe on accident or on purpose I expect them to say "I'm sorry" and regardless of whether or not they really want to be excused, I expect them to cover their mouths and say "excuse me" when they burp. etcetera etcetera. I think there is inherent value in following the social niceties.
(ETA. And let's not forget the rule of tact "if you cant say somethign nice dont say anything at all."(or at least choose your words very carefully) I think that one is pretty good too.)

I know that as an adult, I prefer to associate and be friends with such people. I think this is an excellent quality to develop.

Joline


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yes, well, I prefer honesty to politeness for the sake of social custom any day. In a perfect world or situation, there would be honesty with respect to someone's feelings and that happens a lot in my world.

However, the people I tend to have the best relationships with are people who I can count on to be honest with me in any given situation. Ones who are capable of being gentle, but also honest.

Authenticity is a value I admire over force or phoniness any day. I don't need any child to say thank you when I have given them a gift. I am not egocentric in that way that my day or even minute would be ruined if someone didn't say thank you. Their REACTION is my thank you...the way their eyes light up, the exclaimation of joy, the "wow" or whatever, provided they like the gift. If their face falls as an immediate response, it is just as apparant that they aren't anamoured by the gift...in which case, a forced or "reminded" thank you is meaningless to me....because I know it is not genuine and I would rather get a genuine negative response than a completely fake, phony, forced positive response. Obviously you feel differenly. Whatever blows your skirt up.

Quote:

Some people dont because they werent taught or they grew up in a rough family. But I thought it was a very widely accepted value.
Thank you for giving me an example above so I didnt have to weed through and find one.
No actually, I was raised in a family not unlike how you relate to your children in terms of manners (and I am sure my parents thought they were doing me a great service too







. Invite me to a state dinner and I would blend right in. I know all the appropriate social customs and have no problem using them when I CHOOSE to. What part of that is lost on you, I am wondering? No one here has simply said to throw manners out the window.The discussion is about CHOICE. The discussion is about force. The discussion is about "reminding" or "coaching" or "taking them aside" or "discussing" (read:lecturing) them later. If your child CHOOSES to say thank you without those forms of manipulation or coercion, more power to them.

However, I don't see how in the world behaving in a rude way...you know, by pointing out what you believe are the faults of your children (when they don't say thank you) is teaching someone to be polite.

One kind of cancels out the other eh?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
No actually, I was raised in a family not unlike how you relate to your children in terms of manners (and I am sure my parents thought they were doing me a great service too







. Invite me to a state dinner and I would blend right in. I know all the appropriate social customs and have no problem using them when I CHOOSE to. What part of that is lost on you, I am wondering? ?

None at all. Your parents raised you to have manners and you know how to use them when you choose. Sounds like a win win situation to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
No one here has simply said to throw manners out the window.The discussion is about CHOICE. The discussion is about force. The discussion is about "reminding" or "coaching" or "taking them aside" or "discussing" (read:lecturing) them later. If your child CHOOSES to say thank you without those forms of manipulation or coercion, more power to them.

However, I don't see how in the world behaving in a rude way...you know, by pointing out what you believe are the faults of your children (when they don't say thank you) is teaching someone to be polite.

One kind of cancels out the other eh?

Well, yes the original discussion was on HOW we teach these manners. But I have really covered all I had to say about that. It is just redundant to continue further.
And as for manners being "thrown out the window".
Well, when all expectation for manners is gone, how else is one to interpret it?
If child shows manners, great. If child has no manners, fine as long as they are being authentic.
And really , I am not tryign to debate this value. Just pointing out that it is an entirely new idea for me that perhaps not everybody values these qualities that I thought were pretty much universally accepted. Hense the term "common courtesy" it is common because "everybody knows that"
I learned somethign new. That is all.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

Gratiously accepting what the world gives you and learning to work with it instead of acting out, making someone feel bad, or mouthing off
... is a trait of an adult. That is like asking a child not to tantrum, because it isn't a very good _adult_ behavior. Isn't that true? Tantruming isn't desirable, is it? Yet we know (most) adults have grown out of tantruming regardless of the ways they were made to feel about themselves during a tantrum. We are talking about children here, not adults. Why are adult traits being listed as desirable qualities in a child? _Gratiously accepting what the world gives you and learning to work with it_ - are you kidding, they're children!

In the Continuum Concept, Leidloff says rather succinctly that NO social "lessons" are given to the children. That the children of the secluded society she studied were treated as capable people who would do what the society expected of them eventually. And their society was so worth studying because they are so NOT Western - they were _constantly_ happy people, who worked harmoniously and courteously together. The other thing to keep in mind about how "terrible our society has become" is that we now separate children from their parents from birth and keep them pretty much separated for life. The reason we gather at this board, I thought, was to get away from typical Western type parenting as it has been blatantly obvious that whatever it is the majority are doing is not working.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
... is a trait of an adult. That is like asking a child not to tantrum, because it isn't a very good _adult_ behavior. Isn't that true? Tantruming isn't desirable, is it? Yet we know (most) adults have grown out of tantruming regardless of the ways they were made to feel about themselves during a tantrum. We are talking about children here, not adults. Why are adult traits being listed as desirable qualities in a child? _Gratiously accepting what the world gives you and learning to work with it_ - are you kidding, they're children!.

I happen to think that tantruming isnt very good childish behavior either. And I also think it is a worthy goal to help a child learn the skills not to tantrum. just as it is a worhty goal to help a child learn social skills.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
... In the Continuum Concept, Leidloff says rather succinctly that NO social "lessons" are given to the children. That the children of the secluded society she studied were treated as capable people who would do what the society expected of them eventually. And their society was so worth studying because they are so NOT Western - they were _constantly_ happy people, who worked harmoniously and courteously together. The other thing to keep in mind about how "terrible our society has become" is that we now separate children from their parents from birth and keep them pretty much separated for life. The reason we gather at this board, I thought, was to get away from typical Western type parenting as it has been blatantly obvious that whatever it is the majority are doing is not working.

Even Leidloff states that being completely CC is nearly impossible in our society because it is so much more complex.
I also have read that she says that children are never told what to do or compelled. However I read the book and she says this but she ALSO says that adults dont even talk to children except to correct them or tell them what to do. That children learn language from their peers. And talk about children being separate from their parents. Once babies are out of the "in arms" phase they are all over the village usually being minded by older children. That the models for behavior are the older children and not the parents.
The groups she lived with had a lot of unique characteristics. Many of which I try to emulate as I found CC to be very provocative and much of it to ring very true to me. But much of it also must be taken with a grain of salt. Because who among us is really going to aspire to not verbalize with our children at all, in fact to meet their needs as they come to us, and then leave them to their own devices. Who among us wishes to terrify our children by swinging them screaming by their arms to dip them into swift running river water to familiarize them with their surroundings?
This society is very provocative. But not a panacea for our modern problems.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

You make good points, Joline.









Quote:

I happen to think that tantruming isnt very good childish behavior either. And I also think it is a worthy goal to help a child learn the skills not to tantrum. just as it is a worhty goal to help a child learn social skills.
"Helping" is a word open for interpretation here, obviously. I helped my DD avoid and work through tantrums. I have also helped her with social skills by telling her during regular conversation between us that people prefer it when they are thanked for doing nice things. I don't let her founder around wondering what the heck we are all doing and why. I believe there is a middle ground.

I am not an advocate of completely allowing my child to work it all out for herself. I am also not an advocate of pressuring her into performing social niceties. Especially not before her years - these beautiful, socially unbound years that do not last long. I show her how it's done, and then leave it to her intelligent and personal choice what to do with that information. To me it is like expecting a small child to know their times tables and whenever they mess up, pointing it out. What's the point in having a three year old that knows their times tables? They'll learn it when they are developmentally ready.

Same socially.

I _trust_ my child.

I know she is _intelligent_, extremely intelligent.

I know she will be _ok socially_.

Maybe that is why I'm not stressed about it and leave her be.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Please, thank you and excuse me, etc. . . are not lies.


Tell me how saying "thanks" when you feel no gratitude and are just trying to get your mom to stop giving you "the look" not a lie? Thanks is a way of saing I am grateful for the whatever. If you say it and don't mean it, it is a lie. How can it not be? When I say thank you, I mean it. I might not like whatever the gift was, but if I know that the intent and effort was for my pleasure then I am genuinely thankful. I do not expect my child to "take the cards dealt, say thank you, and shut up". She is not an adult. That is an acquired skill that she WILL pick up from watching adults be gracious under difficult circumstances. What you want is to have your kids say it AND feel it as an adult would even if they are not capable of feeling it. That is lying.

As I have stated over and over, my parents DID NOT force manners down my throat. They never made me say or write anything. My parents were very polite. I picked up on it. Yes, there were things that took longer than others. Yes I lapsed a few times, especially in the dreaded pre-teen era. But since their was no coaching and expectations, i quickly realized that being rude did not "get at" my parents and quit it. It was OK to put elbows on the table at home. I learned at my first boyfriend's house (at age 14) that elbows on the table is not the norm and quit doing it. Despite my parents raising their kids to be "mannerless" and not knowing anything about "social norms" I have no problem negotiating the social world and even religiously write the slowly-dying-in-this-culture thank you notes.

Of course that is antedotal just like the ever famous "I have a friend that did not learn manners and now cannot hold down a job" example.

The fact is, no one knows what "works" for sure. There is not any research on it. You think you know what "works" and use that to justify coersion and havign your kids lie. I do not care what "works". That is not my goal. An honest, open, and unjudging relationship with my child is my goal.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Tell me how saying "thanks" when you feel no gratitude and are just trying to get your mom to stop giving you "the look" not a lie? Thanks is a way of saing I am grateful for the whatever. If you say it and don't mean it, it is a lie. How can it not be? When I say thank you, I mean it. I might not like whatever the gift was, but if I know that the intent and effort was for my pleasure then I am genuinely thankful. I do not expect my child to "take the cards dealt, say thank you, and shut up". She is not an adult. That is an acquired skill that she WILL pick up from watching adults be gracious under difficult circumstances. What you want is to have your kids say it AND feel it as an adult would even if they are not capable of feeling it. That is lying..

Here we will have to respectfully disagree. I no more think an autmoatic "thank you" is a lie than an automatic "hello" or "good bye" is a lie.
Is "good bye" a lie if you really dont wish that person well?
Or how about "bless you" when somebody sneezes? I am not a Christian. I do not actually mean "may God bless you" when I say Bless YOu. The meaning is purely one of courtesy.
So I think we will simply have to agree to disagree. I think the words have multiple valid uses and that 'Thank You' is just as honest as an expression of courtesy as an expression of gratitude..
Just as "bless you " is an expression of courtesy as well as a divine invocation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
The fact is, no one knows what "works" for sure. There is not any research on it. You think you know what "works" and use that to justify coersion and havign your kids lie. I do not care what "works". That is not my goal. An honest, open, and unjudging relationship with my child is my goal.

Other than the part about having my kids lie. I agree we each go with what we know, and believe, no guarantees.


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## DavinaT (Jun 28, 2005)

sessy said:


> She also says excuse me when she wants to get past someone, says it to the dog and cats too! QUOTE]
> 
> Aww, that's so cute. y cousin's 2 yo also says excue me to the cat and the two dogs (they're bigger than she is)!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I believe it comes down to whether we *trust* that our children are inherently social and abled to discern and learn what is necessary, or whether we _expect_ that our children _need to be taught_ and/or have imposed direction to learn 'what we deem necessary'. When we choose to "expect" something, then we are judging if it does or doesn't occur, yet. I trust that what needs to be learned will be learned when our son needs to learn it. Because he is able and he trusts that he is able. Just as I am able and trust that I am able.

To expect and judge our children every day in so many ways, diminishes the context of a child trusting that they can and will learn what they need to learn, unless they look to others for direction. This type of imposed dependence by the acts of *expecting* and *judging* is contrary to the self-trust that a child who learns in the natural course of living (without expectation or judgement) experiences.

Granted some in our culture deem trusting children to be a "social experiment". Just as trusting women, minorities, etc. was a "social experiment". On the other hand, what has the "social experiment" of imposed direction (ie. education) shown to to produce? Self-trust? Self-esteem? Self-control? Creativity? Integrity? Ability?

Or sheeple?

Pat


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

YES! Scuba!

Thank you. And I mean that.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
On the other hand, what has the "social experiment" of imposed direction (ie. education) shown to to produce? Self-trust? Self-esteem? Self-control? Creativity? Integrity? Ability?

Or sheeple?

Pat

Look Pat. You have the right to your opinions and your way of raising your child. You even have the right to think it is best and the only reasonable thing to do.

But neither myself, nor my children, nor my friends and family are "Sheeple"
Thank you very much.


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## nadinem (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:

To expect and judge our children every day in so many ways, diminishes the context of a child trusting that they can and will learn what they need to learn, unless they look to others for direction. This type of imposed dependence by the acts of *expecting* and *judging* is contrary to the self-trust that a child who learns in the natural course of living (without expectation or judgement) experiences.
I must be showing my age here.... If this is true, why do we make an attempt to teach children anything. Even unschooling techinques guide children to learn via examination of subject of interest. I believe our role as parents is to teach and guide children to be the best they can be and to be responsible adults. From potty learning (or training) to language to medicine, as a parent, I'm involved all the time.

For those of you who believe that children will learn what they need to learn, do you read to your children or do you expect that seeing you read will inspire them to pick up a book and teach themselves from your behaviour. It's about being patient in the process. Starting with shapes, letters, sounds, words, etc. Or in the language of manners, starting with please & thank you, then learning to share, progressing to being able to navigate complicated adult social situations. It's a process and I have no more expectations of a child being able to accept a disappointing gift with grace than I do of them liking chapter books at age 2. But, exposing them to these and explaining the process and working through the hard stuff is the teaching part that I feel is my role.

Regarding *judging*, I prefer the word "evaluating". It's not about saying a child is bad, but again using the analogy of reading, seeing where they need improvement and guiding my teaching in that direction. A lot of the manners thing is about figuring out how to maintain personal integrity in the face of a difficult or uncomfortable situation while allowing all parties to save face.
On another note, I do care how others raise their children. If my please/thank-you and willing to share child goes to school with an unmannered, sharing isn't my thing now, child, then I have to do a lot more extra work showing the value in doing something difficult and often unpopular.

I'll send this and wait for the fireworks to fly.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

But neither myself, nor my children, nor my friends and family are "Sheeple"
Thank you very much.
Speaking for Pat here, but that was not a personal comment. I went to public school myself and didn't take that personally because it is a common phrase used for the institution due to its obvious lack.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Speaking for Pat here, but that was not a personal comment. I went to public school myself and didn't take that personally because it is a common phrase used for the institution due to its obvious lack.

Well myself, my friends, my family and my children are the outcome of this "education" she so maligns.
We are the self trusting, self esteemed, self controlled, creative, integral and Able oucome of that system.
Is it perfect? No. But it produces a heck of a lot more than sheeple.

Regardless of if the comment was aimed at me personally. It was aimed at the portion of humanity which I belong to.
Even the word "Sheeple" is horribly derogatory and unacceptable, and I take issue at describing people in this manner simply because they have been "educated" in the traditional sense.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

No fireworks coming from me, Nadine.







My biggest issue with the whole thing is probably not a trait anyone here has. That trait is when a child is given something and then you hear the mother say, "What do you say?" or "Say thankyou". They sound like they think their child has learning difficulties or is some kind of idiot. How we expose our children to social niceties is far ranging but that particular method, for me, is rude, thoughtless and cringe-worthy.

Quote:

For those of you who believe that children will learn what they need to learn, do you read to your children or do you expect that seeing you read will inspire them to pick up a book and teach themselves from your behaviour.
Apparently, avid readers are statistically more likely to come from a home of avid readers. It doesn't teach them to read, but shows their desire to fit in with their perception of "normal". I have also seen my friend's daughter put a crayon in her mouth and pretend to smoke, "like mama". Yes, they do what they consider normal - and we show them what normal is to us every in breath we take.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Actually I do expect my dd to someday learn to read her own way. She asks me to read books to her and I do. I never read them to her when she does not want me to read them to her. When she decides that she is ready to learn to read she will either figure it out on her own or will ask for help/tools/games/books/classes/whatever which I will happily give her. I have no doubt that at some point before adulthood she will have a desire to read and will get what she wants with or without my asked-for help. She has learned her letters, colors, and numbers without any "teaching" from me or others except to engage in mutually agreeable conversations, book reading, and games. She sought out that knowledge because she wanted to know it. She wants to know about social customs too because she has already learned many without being "taught".

And I am a product of the "education system" in this country and take no offense to Scubamam's comment. It took me 10 years after graduation to figure out that I was indeed a sheeple. I am de-sheepling now. Why would I take offense over something that I did not choose to participate in?

In my experience, when I am fiercely defensive about something it is because I need to examine my feelings on the subject closer. This conversation does not make me angry, it in interesting. But if I were fuming, I would say there were some questions I needed to ask myself.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
And I am a product of the "education system" in this country and take no offense to Scubamam's comment. It took me 10 years after graduation to figure out that I was indeed a sheeple. I am de-sheepling now. Why would I take offense over something that I did not choose to participate in?

In my experience, when I am fiercely defensive about something it is because I need to examine my feelings on the subject closer. This conversation does not make me angry, it in interesting. But if I were fuming, I would say there were some questions I needed to ask myself.

The question is why would you take offense at being called a Sheeple when you believe yourself to have been one.
My values and my experiences do not make me less than human.
It is not my feelings on the subject which need reexamining.
You can call me or a group of people I belong to any derogatory term you choose and I will be equally offended I assure you.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

It is interesting to point out that literacy rates have consistantly dropped since compulsary education was put into place...

which incidentally, the whole concept of public "education" was the brainstorm of wealthy facory owners like Carnegie and the like who were experiencing workers in their factories who were becoming "unruly". They concluded if they could find a way to train children early to sit in rows for hours at a time with few breaks doing menial work, it would produce workers who would be willing to do the same.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Regardless of if the comment was aimed at me personally. It was aimed at the portion of humanity which I belong to.
Even the word "Sheeple" is horribly derogatory and unacceptable, and I take issue at describing people in this manner simply because they have been "educated" in the traditional sense.

I totally agree. It expresses contempt for the vast majority of people, including the vast majority of posters here - very few of whom, presumably, had lives 100% free of education. I hate that word.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
And I am a product of the "education system" in this country and take no offense to Scubamam's comment. It took me 10 years after graduation to figure out that I was indeed a sheeple. I am de-sheepling now. Why would I take offense over something that I did not choose to participate in?

In my experience, when I am fiercely defensive about something it is because I need to examine my feelings on the subject closer. This conversation does not make me angry, it in interesting. But if I were fuming, I would say there were some questions I needed to ask myself.

Boy, that's a convenient argument. You're telling me that I can use any kind of abusive or derogatory language I want, and if people get mad, it's because there's something wrong with *them?* Hey, maybe I *have* been off-base about manners.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I've just been browsing this thread with no intent to post, then I saw Nadine's note









Just wanted to say that both my girls (6 and almost 8) have learned all the things mentioned (including how to read) without being "taught". They learned through interaction and experience with real people in the real world. They are also quite polite and well mannered. I just heard "Mom I'd like some water please". I have never required please or thank you. I have just always used those words with them and everyone else. How could they not pick up on it?

Kids are sponges; I think you would have to lock them in a closet to keep them from learning. They are constantly asking questions and exploring. My youngest is into seconds - how many seconds everyone she knows has been alive (we created a spreadsheet), how many seconds it takes to get somewhere (you would count to 60 3600 times for the drive we have tomorrow she tells me), for the cake to be done etc. My oldest loves words and spells and talks about spelling for the fun of it. I just have to be present and available, I don't have to have an agenda or certain expectations. They know what interests them and they know what they need to learn. They have showed me that time and time again. All you need to do it observe.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Thank you Anna


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
which incidentally, the whole concept of public "education" was the brainstorm of wealthy facory owners like Carnegie and the like who were experiencing workers in their factories who were becoming "unruly". They concluded if they could find a way to train children early to sit in rows for hours at a time with few breaks doing menial work, it would produce workers who would be willing to do the same.

Thank you for saying that. I have always known the education system is used to make workers and has very little to do with actual learning/using your brain to think.
Paulo Friere had some interesting theories on the education system. As did Michel Foulcault.
I am so not a product of this education system.







I barely made it through school. I even managed to get a standing ovation at my high school graduation. I was still getting my stuff graded when everyone was lining up. I had to run to get in line at the last minute. It was so embarassing. I didn't even have a hat and robe thingy.







: I was wearing a Leopard print blouse with a purple velvet tophat. Yes. On my graduation. With *HUGE* black steel-toed boots.









Back OT, ime, young children learn by action. They don't have the complex thinking process down, yet, and so they do what they see, kwim?
For example-the toddlers see mom and dad shake hands with everyone at Grand Entry, so they line up and shake hands, too. They listen to what we say, and they repeat it. We never tell them, "this is Grand Entry and we do x,y,z". We do, of course, answer all questions with honesty.
Or grandpa visits and the younger children watch everyone shake his hand. They will want to shake his hand, too.

IME, it seems the children who are "rude" or impolite, are the ones whose parents are similar.







: Growing up and even sometimes still, we never introduced people to each other.







And we would have like two guests over and they would end up introducing themselves to each other........if that made any sense.







And it's not like I couldn't remember a name or some excuse like that. It's just that my parents never introduced people, either. I didn't even know how rude we were until it was pointed out to me, more than once.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5*
Boy, that's a convenient argument. You're telling me that I can use any kind of abusive or derogatory language I want, and if people get mad, it's because there's something wrong with *them?* Hey, maybe I *have* been off-base about manners.

I was not clear in my post. The last paragraph of my post was not in reference to the "sheeple" discussion. It was in reference to the forced manners discussion. I should have ordered my paragraphs accordingly.

ETA that I do not think the term is abusive or even deragatory regardless. Is it or is it not the goal of our education system to make uniformly "educated" people? A uniformly "educated" people that believes a very misguided idea of history, that thinks children should not learn chemsirty in first grade but by darn it MUST learn it before graduating even if they are totally uninterested. Not to mention we all leave with this idea that we can only learn by being taught which is really what this entire thread boils down to. The fact is, and it is a fact, that being taught is not the only way to learn.....AND first graders should learn chemistry if THEY want to.....AND no one should learn if they don't want to.....AND this country has and continues to do awful things to other people even if it is not stated so in the happy little history book.....AND a whole bunch of other things that I myself believed to be true until I started to examine them with an open mind. If you are really saying that you do not believe our eductaion system strives to make sheeple, then i guess I see why you find it offensive.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I was not clear in my post. The last paragraph of my post was not in reference to the "sheeple" discussion. It was in reference to the forced manners discussion. I should have ordered my paragraphs accordingly.

IN which case you are right. Poor manners are a big pet peeve of mine.
I see almost every day examples of people whose parents did not teach them any manners. THis is especially true on the roadway.
But I am not really interested so much any more in how manners are taught, if modeling only works/ well great.
My interest (towards the end of this thread) is in how low they are valued overall.
Issues with that? Uh huh!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
IN which case you are right. Poor manners are a big pet peeve of mine.
I see almost every day examples of people whose parents did not teach them any manners. THis is especially true on the roadway.
But I am not really interested so much any more in how manners are taught, if modeling only works/ well great.
My interest (towards the end of this thread) is in how low they are valued overall.
Issues with that? Uh huh!










Well, amazingly, we agree on something







I too agree that manners have seemed to have dwindled. Most of the people I come into contact with have great manners. But I have run into some that are not so mannered. That might factor into whether or not I want to start or maintain a relationship with them. But they might be happy being mannerless and friendless people. Some people are. Or maybe they are just unhappy? I do get the nagging feeling that our society on a whole is less and less happy. I personally like manners. I wish the whole world adhered to them. But I cannot control the whole world and if my breed is dying, well there is little I can do about that.....except using my manners until I die too.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

The term "sheeple" very distinctly strips a group of human beings of their very HUMANITY by virtue of sharing qualities that you do not value.
"sheeple" implies that one is not really a fully functioning fully realized human being but a sheep.
How can stripping the humanity of a group of people be anything but derogatory?
It is exactly the same as any of a number of animal references to different groups, such as racial or ethnic groups.
It is no more OK to say that I am a "sheeple" than it is to call another group "monkeys" or "pigs".


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Actually, I think all animals are incredible sentient beings (including sheep). Sheep just tend to herd together and follow a crowd.

Let's not be too tough on the sheep. They are pretty great too.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
Actually, I think all animals are incredible sentient beings (including sheep). Sheep just tend to herd together and follow a crowd.

Let's not be too tough on the sheep. They are pretty great too.









And I would imagine they would be pretty upset at being called "sheeple" as well. As it woudl imply they were less than fully actualized sheep. Bu tsome type of human/sheep hybrid.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
Actually, I think all animals are incredible sentient beings (including sheep). Sheep just tend to herd together and follow a crowd.

Let's not be too tough on the sheep. They are pretty great too.









Yeah, I think the term is more about following the crowd witrhout much thought.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
The term "sheeple" very distinctly strips a group of human beings of their very HUMANITY by virtue of sharing qualities that you do not value.
"sheeple" implies that one is not really a fully functioning fully realized human being but a sheep.
How can stripping the humanity of a group of people be anything but derogatory?
It is exactly the same as any of a number of animal references to different groups, such as racial or ethnic groups.
It is no more OK to say that I am a "sheeple" than it is to call another group "monkeys" or "pigs".









:


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sheeple

Public Education's goal is conformity, compliance and compulsion, no?

Pat


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## jyurina (Mar 17, 2005)

I just gotta say that after reading most of this thread(which has taken a while!) I am constantly amazed that people that have found this board and share here would call the people of this discussion board sheep like. Sheep tend to be easily led and do what the others do out of instinct. I have read radical moms, crunchy moms, out there moms, but really no herd like moms. We are here because we are different from the American Baby reading parents. Really if we are so stuck on our opinions being the one and only right way wouldn't that mean that we are expecting the people reading and posting to just shut up and follow us? Nicknames like sheeple may be amusing but like other "names" they are just a way to make a group inferior to us because they do not agree with us.
As for the manners things, my daughter who is 2 has amazing manners without being taught at all, just modeled. My son is nearly 7 and I will occasionally remind him, but he doesn't really need it much. It depends on what works for you, like most everything parenting related.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is an article from John Taylor Gatto demonstrating the process of public education in action: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tma68/7lesson.htm The process creates dependency. No "name calling" was intended, the point is the process of developing adults who follow 'authority' without thinking is intentional, useful and practical. But, I am not interested in participating. Thankyouverymuch. I mean that.









Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I believe it comes down to whether we *trust* that our children are inherently social and abled to discern and learn what is necessary, or whether we _expect_ that our children _need to be taught_ and/or have imposed direction to learn 'what we deem necessary'. When we choose to "expect" something, then we are judging if it does or doesn't occur, yet. I trust that what needs to be learned will be learned when our son needs to learn it. Because he is able and he trusts that he is able. Just as I am able and trust that I am able.

I believe my children are inherently social and able to discern and learn what is necessary, and I will help in this process by telling them what I know. This an incredibly complex society we live in, and I am going to impart the small wisdom I've gleaned throughout my scarce years the best I can. My children can pick and choose what they keep and take onto their adult lives, but at least they'll have it.

Oh, and by the way, I am able to learn, I trust that I'm able to learn, AND I am a product of public education. And while I believe our public education system is deeply flawed, I think the deduction that any instruction at all is going to rob your child of their ability to think for themselves is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

and I am going to impart the small wisdom I've gleaned throughout my scarce years the best I can.
I don't think that statement is what people are neccessarily having issues with. I certainly don't. I don't think there is anything wrong with providing information in a conversational setting that will assist children in making informed decisions. In other words, say I am writing a thank you note to someone and my child asks "whatcha' doing"" (as most children are interested in what their parents are doing) ... I would explain that I am writing a thank you note to so and so because they sent me a lovely card/gift whatever, and I wanted them to know how much I appreciated their thought. End of story. I imparted the information in a non-coercive, non-manipulative, conversational way...trusting that my child has observed and will process the information and use it in the future if she chooses....

I think the issue is arising because people are doing more than just "imparting wisdom"...they are lecturing in the car ride over, they are watching their child's reaction when opening the gift (or whatever), they are giving "the look", taking them aside, nudging them to say the "right" words, "reminding" them in front of others to say the "right" words, and so on...

That is where I disagree. I don't have a problem at all with manners, social customs (as it relates to manners), modeling, or sharing information with my daughter about how *most* people react in certain situations, or about why I do the things I do (write thank you notes, etc)...or a combination thereof. That is where It stops though for me. That is where she is given the choice with the information she has, the observations she has made, and the modeling she has seen to decide whether or not she chooses to act, or not.

As far as the educational system, I am just speaking for myself when I say that looking back now, it was all about conforming, learning how to "act", survival of the fittest (or richest, or prettiest, or best behaved if you will), and learning 12 years of stifling independant thought, but for one or two teachers who I felt really nurtured thought and individuality (they were rare though).
It has taken me years to "undo" that in my head and in my life and I am finally there (though we are all works in progress). Schools in general are not big on independant thought or anyone who goes against the grain in my experience.


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is *nothing* wrong with expressing your feelings.

Hey, MITB, how do you compromise this with your post from three day prior to this one, where you said:

Quote:

When in public, there are certain acceptable and unacceptable behaviors that we, as parents, are expected to teach our children. If a person cannot use acceptable behaviors in public, then maybe they are not ready to be in public.
It sounds to me like there you were advocating for teaching children to behave in socially acceptable ways when in public, even if that is counter to the child's feelings or desires. Yet, here, you seem to be saying that a child should never feel forced to act in a socially acceptable way just because someone has deemed it "courteous".


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

subbing so I can wade through all these posts...


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## kitchenwitch (Aug 19, 2006)

I teach my children by example... I say please and thank you to them, and they say it back without ever having been told to.
I respect them, and so they have learned how to be respectful to others


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

I was wonderign about this a few months ago but my ds has had a verbal breakthrough and says thank you and you're welcome! I had no idea how he learned that until I paid attention to myself...and its just such a habit to say please, thank you, good morning, you're welcome, may I, excuse me, good night etc that I just didn't notice I said those to him too.

apparently that's how









*ETA* I only read the first page of replies before replying myself...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


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