# it's official.. Gentle Discipline is not possible with my child :(



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

It's just not. I have tried everything. she does whatever she wants. she doesn't eat what she doesn't want to eat, she does whatever she wants, she screams until she gets it, even in public. I threaten a lot. it's the only way to make her do things. "eat or no more TV" is a common one. "let me put your hair up and you can have some candy" it's awful. seriosuly, I have tried EVERYTHING. she is out of control. she is strong willed just like me, and I am starting to understand my mom, because she went through this with me!

I honestly think I have failed GD! what's next? I SO don't want to be a mean mama! I need help! I don't want dd to keep acting like such a spoiled brat! (I swear she does, it's my fault) she demands everything (with a please at the end though) it's so hard. she cries and screams and NOTHING will calm her until she gets her way. believe me i have tried, she will kick and scream for hours if I don't give in. I always do because I want her to be happy, but this can't continue.

I need help! thankfully my ds was my dh's personality, calm as a bird







:


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Stop giving in.

Please stop thinking of your child as a spoiled brat.

Please stop making food an issue.

Please stop threatening.

Please stop *making* her do things.

Don't put her hair up if it is such a big problem.

Turn off the TV.

Stop basing your decisions on what she can and can't have on totally arbitrary reasons, "You can't have a doll today because today I decided that you have enough dolls." Is it really worth the struggle?

Stop thinking your child is out of control. Negativity breeds negativity.

Examine why YOU are struggling with this child.

Go give her a hug and a kiss and tell her you love her always.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I am struggling with the same thing. I'm a GD failure. My dd is SO strong willed. She's also very loving to her family. She's just *very*. Period.

The above advice is good, but I can also understand your frustrations. For us, I just don't always have time to get down to her level right at that moment, I don't have the emotional resources to use humor or whatever it takes to lighten the mood and move on.

I guess I don't have much advice to offer . . .just wanted to tell you I completely and totally understand. It's easy to be a good GD mommy when you have a child who is receptive to it. My dd is very combative. Has been since birth. There are certain power struggles I must win, for her safety, for her well-being. There are others I must win because we live in a society where there are rules that must be followed when out in public.

What's been working pretty good is a delayed punishment. Okay, I know punishment is not popular here but sometimes it's what works for us. I'm sure there are better options and when I have the time I do mean to read those books everyone here talks about. (Hey maybe I should get off the net and read more! lol!)

Anyway, if we are out in public she often things she can do whatever she wants. I warn her and if she does it again I tell her what the consequence will be when we get home. And I always follow through even if she's being the sweetest angel by the time we get home because she knows she can move my heart with a smile. But I say, "Remember when I said stop doing xyz and you did it anyway? Well that's why you can't have any more videos today" or whatever. Because that made mommy sad" and I go into a talk about how her behavior affected others.

I'm rambling, it's late, I should get to bed.

I totally agree about ending the hair battle and any others that you can. My dd used to have the most beautiful, long, wavy, thick hair. The hair I always wished I had, so I took great pleasure admiring hers and getting compliments on it. But oh the fights we had over her hair! The bathtub struggles to get it washed, the crying over the tangles I had to comb out, the hassle of having to put it up daily so it would not get in her face. Finally when baby was about 2 mos. old I got their portraits taken and then chopped her hair to a bob. Never regretted it! If I want to admire her hair I get out the picture and look at it for a few minutes.

With eating, she does have feeding issues and I do have to make sure she eats well. The girl can fast for 2 days and not be hungry. But what I do is we all eat together so she gets attention at the meals. If she finishes a reasonable amt. of food she gets dessert, usually a yogurt or something. No TV during meals either, no toys at the table, no singing at the table. Talking is good though.

BTW screaming because she didn't get that toy in the store never hurt my dd. The first time she did have a royal tantrum through the store and into the parking lot, and it was continued at home. Finally got tired of hearing it and put her in her room, told her to come out when she was done crying and we could talk. Second and third times I just told her if she cried we were leaving the store immediately. Left a full care behind. Also told her that she was being left with Daddy while Mommy went shopping because of her crying. Now she will ask to look at the toys and I'll say, "Okay but we are not buying any. You have so many toys at home." She'll even carry one through the story and then I'll tell her to say bye bye to it and she does. I just held my ground and eventually she got the message.

If only it was that simple with everything . . .

Darshani


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Darshani,

With no judgement - By telling your dd that her behavior makes you sad you are allowing her to manipulate your emotions. Very powerful tool for a little one.

And (I don't want to pick on you, really...just make you think) how is the delayed punishment working? Do you mean that now she has leanred not to do the things she used to do while outside?

I do realize that none of this is easy. It wasn't easy for me. The important thing is to change your perception, to delve into the reasons behind your child's behavior, to discover why you demand of your child what you do. I don't buy for a minute the theory that some children are simply born more combattive than others. It starts from the beginning because the parent's style of interaction starts from the beginning too.

My dd was a biter and still hits occasionally. She has had sleep issues. She has had tantrums.

My dd didn't want to go to preschool yesterday. She cried and clung to me. Instead of just saying, "You will go to school today and that's final," I asked her why, and with a little talking she finally admitted that she didn't want her visiting grandmother to come pick her up. Nonverbal children can't express themselves like this. But we need to be open to all the possible reasons behind a tantrum, not just the most immediate and logical one.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

You definitely need boundaries for her that no amount of screaming crying begging or pleading will change. But don't make big issues out of things that don't warrant that strong of boundary.

Don't make her eat. It's her body, let her choose.

Just because you don't want to be a mean mom, isn't an excuse to bribe her with candy to get her hair combed and then complain that she's out of control.

If you give me exact scenarios, I'll give you exact advice, but you'll still have to be the one to carry it out.

First thing, if you don't like the tone of voice she "asks" for things in, teach her the voice you want to hear. It sounds like she understands the word please needs to be included, she'll learn the voice is important too. "when you have a happy voice I'll be quick to do that" model the exact pitch and tone you want.

Gentle discipline is possible with your child. You are the one that has to make it. You can't just focus on the gentle part and try to keep the peace. She needs to learn discipline for herself. The rest of her life depends on you teaching it to her. Even if it makes you a strict mama for a little while.


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## bunnybartlett (Aug 27, 2002)

The Natural Child by Jan Hunt.She has a great outlook on this subject.Definitely a book worth reading!!!

Linda

ps: We have had the hair battle too.If I catch her half asleep in the morn during her tv time she usually doesn't complain.When she does I tell her she can wear it down but when its time to go outside we have to put it up and that goes over ok. I rarely get to do anything fancy with it and have given up on dreams of her looking cute all the time....some battles aren't worth it.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

What's with the hair thing? Why do they need to wear it up?

Sincerely curious.

Really.

Truly.

Honestly.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
It's just not. I have tried everything. she does whatever she wants. she doesn't eat what she doesn't want to eat, she does whatever she wants, she screams until she gets it, even in public.

***She screams because it works.

Believe me, if I could get a raise at work every time I screamed, I'd sound like an angry two-year-old ALL THE TIME.

Also, she doesn't care if it's in public, but it sure sounds like you do.

I bet she knows that.

Quote:

I threaten a lot. it's the only way to make her do things. "eat or no more TV" is a common one. "let me put your hair up and you can have some candy" it's awful.
***Okay, I am asking this seriously: What would be so bad if she did not eat?

Really?

I have never, ever heard anywhere of any kid at any time starving to death when she had perfectly good food put in front of her.

Suggestion: Put the food down. If she eats, she eats. If she doesn't, she doesn't.

DO NOT SAY A SINGLE THING ABOUT IT, NOT EVEN A LITTLE.

After a time acceptable to you, take the plate away. If she puts up a stink about it, put the plate down. Take it away ONLY IF she would risk food poisoning by eating it.

Quote:

seriosuly, I have tried EVERYTHING. she is out of control. she is strong willed just like me, and I am starting to understand my mom, because she went through this with me!
With all support and due respect, Loving, you have not tried everything. What you have not tried is *not giving in to her when she screams.*

Quote:

I honestly think I have failed GD!
I really don't think you've failed the "gentle" part, but maybe the "discipline" part can be changed to improve your situation.

Quote:

what's next? I SO don't want to be a mean mama!

And that's the root of your problem. You're so concerned that she'll hate you for being mean that you give in to every demand.

Hon, little kids (believe it or not) do *not* want you to give in to their every demand. If you do, what they'll do in response is pushandpushandpush looking for your line in the sand. You know -- the line you *can NOT cross* ? If they don't find it, guess what? Pushandpushandpush...

Part of being a good mom is saying NO.

Quote:

I need help! I don't want dd to keep acting like such a spoiled brat! (I swear she does, it's my fault)
Don't reduce it to labels. She's not a "spoiled brat." She's a kid who's gotten her own way too many times and is desperately searching for the limits and guidance she NEEDS at this age.

Quote:

she demands everything (with a please at the end though)
This is still rudeness in our house. Tone of voice is just as important as phrasing of requests. Do you give in when she says "I WANT MY BARBIE...please!"? If you do, then you're teaching her that rudeness is acceptable as long as you tag on a perfunctory "please" at the end. How long is she going to have a job if she thinks she can say to her boss, "You're an a&&&&&&&... SIR!" ?

Quote:

it's so hard. she cries and screams and NOTHING will calm her until she gets her way. believe me i have tried, she will kick and scream for hours if I don't give in.
Okay, this is a serious question. If she cries and screams for hours...SO WHAT? Again, really, so what? It is not pleasant, I guarantee. However, it takes sooooooooo much energy and soooooooooo many calories to do that. What you do by giving in to her "always" is teach her that this method of screaming ALWAYS WORKS.

The next time, just let her scream. Buy some ear plugs and tough it out. Really. Prepare for two weeks of hell, Mama, but if you can stick out those two weeks, the other weeks are going to be way better. It's also a two-steps-forward-one-step-back issue: it'll get better, then worse, then better.

Honestly, what I would do is the following:

1. Make any demands of yours reasonable demands. Hair up is not really that reasonable.

2. Ask her opinion and give her options: "Do you want your hair up or down?"

3. Serve the food and BE QUIET ABOUT IT.

4. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT make alternate food. If she doesn't like the broccoli stir-fry, please do NOT NOT NOT make chicken fingers or whatever else. Serve what the family is eating.

5. If she doesn't eat, she WILL NOT STARVE. If she wakes up in the middle of the night hungry, give her a glass of milk or something (NOT FOOD) and explain that her choice not to eat resulted in her being hungry and that breakfast will be served in the morning. PERIOD. If she screams about that, go ahead and let her.

I am sorry if this doesn't sound particularly gentle. The point to teach her is that her choices have logical, natural consequences AND that screaming doesn't work.

6. Turn off the television. I have every confidence it is not helping her behavior at all.

Quote:

I always do because I want her to be happy, but this can't continue.

I need help! thankfully my ds was my dh's personality, calm as a bird







:









I agree, this can't continue. Stop feeding the troll, Mama. You feed the troll every time you give in to the screaming.

Listen, I love my child more than life itself. After having been a public school teacher for eight years, I have no tolerance for rudeness or disrespect. I don't spank, belittle, and rarely yell, but I do not let my child, whom I love dearly, get rewarded for being rude or throwing a tantrum.

After all this,







. She'll still love you even if you set limits.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

ParisMaman~







Thank you for your first post! I just want to ditto it. I am so sleepy I may not be able to be coherant.

As for the hair, my dd has fur hair. It is fluffy and super fine. It tangles easily and creates a big mat in the back of her head and breaks off. If I'm able to get it in a ponytail, the damage is much less. Dd doesn't like to sit still even though she does actually like to see herself with her hair all done up. Anyway, for us, coupled with the hair in the eyes thing, the fur hair rat's nest is what makes us need to get her hair up sometimes.

My solutions for the hair issue:
I cut her bangs while she was engrossed in a toy. I clenched my teeth because I don't think I could cut a son's hair, but it had to happen, her natural bangs were poking her in her eyes. I haven't had to trim them yet and it's been a long while. I don't regret it.

Then I found that washing her hair was pretty unnecessary since it doesn't get greasy or anything, and I wash it very rarely, only to get chlorine from the pool out. Even at 20 months she lets me wash it occasionally to get gunk out when I explain to her why. She will tell me it's "awful" while I do it, but she wants the stuff out of her hair too. I never force her. Not washing her hair has changed it and it tangles less now. I have found that less than a drop of jojoba oil also takes care of the mat and frequent combings after we sleep or she goes in the car seat. She likes to comb my hair while I comb hers.

Sometimes I put it in pigtails while she is sleeping, I do one side, nudge her so she rolls over and then put up the other side. She loves pigtails so she's pleasantly surprised when she wakes up and can admire them, and she doesn't have to sit through tangle combing or hair pulling. It also helps me learn to be gentle for fear of waking her.

Lastly, it isn't the end of the world if she doesn't want her hair up today, so what if she has tangles? They aren't on my head. She knows the consequences of it and she is smart enough to decide on her own. Also, if she wants a hair tie out, I take it out. It's her head.

So, in reference to the OP, I want to say that threatening isn't GD. Making ultimatums isn't GD either. And PLEASE don't make food an issue. My dd is under 5th percentile I think and I wish to god she would chow down but it just isn't her metabolism. I trust her to eat when she's hungry. If she is not eating what I think is right I evaluate her nutritional needs and possible illnesses that might affect her appetite. Otherwise, I have to trust her instincts.

I dunno, my dd pretty much does whatever she wants and I don't feel like a failure at GD. Sometiems she is really sassy and that's okay. I don't have the expectation that she will be obedient to me, only that she will be true to herself. Her needs and wants are no less than mine.

Also, do a search in this forum for tantrums, I'm nak so I will elave it to you. There was an AWESOME article in Mothering about tantrums while I was pregnant. It talked about the need to clear the system of energy and frustrstion and how parents can support that need. It also helped me allow myself to have "tantrums."

You're not a failure, you're learning! Don't give up! Gentle discipline isn't just about not spanking or beating a child, it's about repectfully communicating with your child. You'll get there. No matter which way you do it, parenting is difficult, no one style is going to solve your problems. Stick with it.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I agree with everything Charles Baudelaire said. (I often do!







) Giving your child everything she wants -- especially giving in to screaming and the like -- is *not* being a nice Mommy. Holding to your limits in love, even if your dd seems not to like it, IS. Hang in there! You may find that being a bit more strict, yet less controling (over food, especially), allows you to act nicer, yell less, etc. Respect is a two-way street, after all. I think in the end, a strict but calm and respectful parent is much better for the child than a permissive but angry and resentful parent. You can do it!


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

My older dd is extremely strong willed and did not respond in the least to many gd techniques. I highly recommend "Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries," by Robert J. MacKenzie.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am sorry to hear that you are having such a tough time.
I love Parismaman's first post--inspiring for me!
My dd is very, very strong willed (my mother insists she's never seen anything like her--with some amusement and some horror in her voice







), and *letting go* of many issues has been invaluable here. Her hair is hers. Her body is hers. Anything regarding her body is her choice (although we give her motivating information when I feel strongly about an issues--like brushing teeth to avoid cavities).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
***3. Serve the food and BE QUIET ABOUT IT.

4. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT make alternate food. If she doesn't like the broccoli stir-fry, please do NOT NOT NOT make chicken fingers or whatever else. Serve what the family is eating.

5. If she doesn't eat, she WILL NOT STARVE. If she wakes up in the middle of the night hungry, give her a glass of milk or something (NOT FOOD) and explain that her choice not to eat resulted in her being hungry and that breakfast will be served in the morning. PERIOD. If she screams about that, go ahead and let her.

I agree with #3 above, but not with #4 and 5. What if she doesn't like what is served? I think refusing to serve other food--even when the child awakes hungry, just to prove a point--is continuing the food battle. I strongly suggest that you drop the food battle completely.

Buy food you are comfortable with dd eating at any time. Prepare meals with her preferences in mind (I always remove a portion of veggies from stirfry before adding any sauce, because dd does like sauce, for instance). Serve the meal, and ignore her eating. To be honest, I can't tell you what dd eats at each meal, because I am not paying attention to it. We are talking, sharing stories of our day, etc--not monitering each other's eating.
If dd finds nothing appealing at the table, tell her that she can get herself something from the bottom shelf of the fridge (have some fruit/yogurt or other acceptable choices on the lowest shelf), or offer to get her something (easy) after you have finished your dinner. Yes, more work--but not much work (since you are not offering an alternative meal, but just a piece of fruit or cheese or a hardboiled egg or something equally easy), and dd will soon realize that she has no one to fight regarding food.
If there is some type of food that you are battling about (candy), stop buying it. Get rid of it!
Same with the tv--if it is become a problem, just unplug it. Do other stuff. And I would explain it that way, too. We are battling too much about the tv. Mommy doesn't want us to fight about it anymore. Until *we can figure out a way to watch tv without fighting, the tv will stay off. But we can do all these other great things: ______.
I know, easier said than done--but if it breaks the cycle of battling, it may be very well worth it!


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

Stop giving in.
Absolutely. ITA with this (and i would even if Ellie weren't my friend).

I am by no means a GD intellectual giant. I only found out what i was doing was called that when i came here 20 months ago.

My son is a handful. Gorgeous, delicious with blue eyes that will melt your heart and anyone that looks into them, but a handful with a capital H. That said, but picking my battles, standing firm in what i feel is important (safety being a big one, eating healthy foods and being respectful and kind), not giving in, has not only relieved me, but greatly relieved him, mostly from the screaming fits, kwim? With gentle guidance and sometimes frequent reminders, this leaves both of us "off the hook".... And when i say no, i mean it. no means no, no matter how many times or ways you ask me. period. I actually say yes many times....

It can be so hard to stand our ground in front of a wailing screaming child, especially if we are out in public, or at home exhausted from the never ending battles some kids give/have. I find GD is almost easier for me. Boundaries, guidelines, respect goes a long way. When i have to be tough, i am....but always with love in my heart.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Let me explain something (and thank everyone who dittoed me







) 'cause I think it sounds snotty: When I say that the strong-willedness stems from even the earliest interactions I am talking about styles of communicating whose effects can be very subtle. And I am mainly talking about the children like the girl described in the OP. Like SB3 and EFMom say, you can work with a strong-willed child and not have the need (desire? too hard to GD?) to conclude that he or she is just not made for GD/mutually agreeable techniques of forming a quality adult (hee hee).

Oh, and I say Stop Giving In to you because you need to break this cycle. There is a point, when you will be further on, where it will be perfectly acceptable to change your mind about something you have said no to, etc. But I think you need to get past the marathon screaming fits first.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Ditto, Paris Maman what great posts.
My daughter's hair, ugh, it's brutal, but it's how she likes it.
GD does work, you've got excellent advice here.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Same with the tv--if it is become a problem, just unplug it. Do other stuff. And I would explain it that way, too. We are battling too much about the tv. Mommy doesn't want us to fight about it anymore. Until *we can figure out a way to watch tv without fighting, the tv will stay off. But we can do all these other great things: ______.

If this is too much, then maybe you could sit down with her in a calm moment and discuss the tv issue? Define the problem ( the battles, the screaming), and ellicit her suggested solutions. Suggest some of your own. Write them all down, and then decide together on a way to solve the problem. Maybe she will be more receptive to rules that she helps to define?


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
Darshani,

With no judgement - By telling your dd that her behavior makes you sad you are allowing her to manipulate your emotions. Very powerful tool for a little one.

And (I don't want to pick on you, really...just make you think) how is the delayed punishment working? Do you mean that now she has leanred not to do the things she used to do while outside?

I do realize that none of this is easy. It wasn't easy for me. The important thing is to change your perception, to delve into the reasons behind your child's behavior,

I agree on most of this. Problem is we are in a time if crisis in our home. Probably when things get easier I'll have the mental capacity to think more deeply about things. Right now our baby has some serious health and feeding problems. 3yo's had to grow up fast in some ways.

BTW yes the delayed thing does work. She's smart, probably smarter than I am! lol! But yeah, it does work. Most of the time when I get that stern look she starts to rethink her choices.

I also believe that she should know how her actions affect others. Yes, hitting me or whatever, it does make me sad. What's wrong with letting her know that? She has a problem making friends sometimes and I tell her that hitting them makes them sad and that's why they don't want to play with her. Since using this strategy she's been a lot nicer to her peers and kids want to play with her again.

I think this board is great-- I learn a lot here. Makes me bend my brain! lol! I also think every child is different and not one formula works for all children.

Darshani


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

EVERYONE.. thank you for all your help. ALL your posts are wonderful, and I have read them all and learned from them all.. now, if you want to help me some more.. :LOL

about her appearance..I admit I like my dd to look nice. she has GORGEOUS brown hair, I mean gorgeous. she knows she does, and since she has it long, it gets really messy when she sleeps. so when she gets up, she does NOT want to comb it. If I bribe her, she will let me, but I don't want to bribe her anymore! she insists on wearing the same clothes that she wore the day before! even if they are dirty! I let some things pass, but honestly, it does bother me that she go out with dirty clothes when she has a huge closet of clothes with tags on them still. am I a bad mama for wanting her to look nice? I don't want to be like my mom! and she was like this!

about the food, this is what she will do. she won't eat unless it's something she wants. and what she wants is usually junk. I have a whole fridge stuffed with home made organic food for her. I can't even bribe her into eating it. she just won't. some things that are good for her, she likes. for example, she LOVES cherry tomatoes. she also likes cheese. other than that, she knows there's ice cream in the freezer, and begs for it, kicking and screaming until I serve her a bowl of ice cream. (we buy it for dh and I and we give her some, I don't like saying no completely to her eating things like ice cream, I just wish she would know it's not for EVERY SINGLE MEAL kwim?
it's very challenging for me, but I don't want to try to change her because of her personality. I love her the way she is.

Charles- you are so right. My worst fear is that she will hate me. that I will end up being too strict with her. like my mother was with me, and now I am very resentful towards my mother. I buy my dd everything she asks for. it's not just me, my dh buys her everything too. is this so wrong? I don't want to say no to the toy at the toy store, if I can buy it, then why not?


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

I think there have been some great suggestions/advice offered here!

I wanted to say a couple of things....

First, I think it's important for us to heal our own childhood issues ourselves with or without our own parents. The way to heal these things is not to just do the opposite with our own children. I think it's very important to take a look at our own issues and deal with these things ourselves. It's not our child's issue as to whether we want them to look a certain way. It's not our child's issue if we couldn't stand the way our parents did something.

You say in the OP that GD is not possible with your child, and that you have failed at GD. However, the things that you are describing is NOT GD. So please don't blame what's going on to GD.

I think that it helps to look past the moment. While it often may be easier to "give in" at a particular moment...do you really want to deal with what you may have created by doing so?

If you want to buy your daughter everything at the store (and your DH also wants to do this) fine...but you are the one that stated you have an issue with the behavior that goes along with the times that you don't want to do this. So maybe it would be good to take a look at what you are really wanting to have happen here.

The issue here is that you are dealing with the things that you have created. You have taught your daughter to do these things. It's not about GD, it's not about your daughters personality, it's about what you have taught her to do.

GD is not about a child doing whatever he/she wants, whenever they want, and however they want. It's about loving your child enough to guide them in a gentle manner. It's about loving them enough to parent them. It's not always the easiest solution - often it's not. But it really does pay off greatly







I think many of us are geared towards the all or nothing, the extremes. So we see things as either that we would be total dictator authoritarian type or we would be absolute permissive doormats...neither are healthful for children.

It's awesome that you are willing to come and ask for support! And it's ok to mess up - it's a process and when we know better we do better


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

clothcrazymom- thanks for your kind words and very wise post.

ok, so about an hour ago, all the TV's are OFF! NO TV IN OUR HOUSE! the radio is on, and dd is playing with paints in the livingroom, listening to some music. wow, I feel good about turning the TV off. I will take her to ger gymboree class later on today, so that will give us something to do. I need to find more activities to do at home, I am buying her more finger paints and some more paper (she has a lot but if it's new it'll motivate her and she'll be happy playing)


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

You know, loving-my-babies, I have to hand it to you: This is the first time in a long time that I have seen someone take advice so gracefully - and implement it so quickly. (must delete phrase because of something I forgot). That's a very nice trait to have.

I have a list of activities that I have compiled here and there on MDC. There is also a thread that I started called activities for 4 year-olds or something like that. If you want the list just PM me with your email address.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Just quickly, if you wind up in battles about the TV staying off, consider just removing it for a while. This is how we have had to handle tv with DS. DD would accept limits on viewing, but DS begs and begs and begs and drives me nuts! Taking it down has worked wonders as far as stopping the battle completely -- out of sight, out of mind! We still pull it out now and then for a treat. Both kids are playing much more creatively now.

As for the ice cream and other "junk" she knows is there -- how about removing it from the house for a while? You and dh will have to practice what you preach, which can be a good lesson in itself! I'm no saint on this one -- I often pull out the chips and salsa after the kids go to bed. But if it were becoming a daily battle with the kiddos refusing to eat other food and begging for the chips, I'd go without for a while. Your dd won't refuse to eat good food if it's the only stuff available! An occasional treat is fine, but for a while you may want to limit it to outside the house, until a better pattern is established at home. A good tip I learned to compromise between making a separate meal for a picky eater and forcing them to eat only what you cooked: Always have something on the table that you know the child likes. If that's all they eat, fine, but you don't get yourself into the bind of having to be a short-order cook! So if you might serve tuna casserole with cherry tomatoes, cheese and bread. If she eats some of each, great. If she only eats bread, cheese and one tomato, fine. It's worked pretty well for us.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Well, I disagree with Charles Bauledaire, but I often do. :LOL No offense, CB. My child can choose what she wants to eat just as I choose what I want to eat. If I don't like what everyone is having, I'll make myself something else. Often the person cooking makes something too spicy for me (and dd for that matter) or they make something I just don't feel I can eat. Doesn't matter why, hydrogenated oils, animal products, food dyes, I plain don't like it, whatever. Just because dd doesn't have the skills to make her own food or the money to buy her own food, doesn't mean she shouldn't be afforded this respect. Forcing kids to eat food they don't like or not to eat any food at all is continuing the food battle and is an ultimatum I personally find very, very offensive. I wonder how one of us adults might feel if our meals were limited to things we didn't like. If eery toddler goes through a phase where they choose to only have a few things in their diet, then it must be a normal and necessary phase, no? My went through a time when she only ate noodles. For breakfast, lunch and dinner, she ONLY ate noodles and drank milk. She didn't die.

And no child will want to live on an ice cream diet. I choose not to keep it in my house all the time. When I want ice cream, even if it's breakfast time, I eat some. And guess what- I still have pretty good eating habits. So if there is ice cream and dd wants some at a time deemed innappropriate for ice cream, who am I do tell her no? Even if she were to decide all should would eat is ice cream, I know it wouldn't last long.

I teach her to tell me what she wants and that I will respect it. BEFORE she has to start screaming about it. If she does scream about the rare no she is given, I re-evealuate why I set the boundary. She is a human, she has every right to argue with me. Just because she doesn't ahve the verbal skills to do so, doesn't mean she is somehow not entitled to voice her displeasure. We discourage screaming by listening to her requests and asking her to voice them calmly and respectfully as we try to voice all our requests.

Allowing a child to scream for hours and hours is not gentle discipline. Well, truthfully, I feel like a lot of things that are not gentle pass for gentle discipline around here anymore. My eyes were bugging out when I read that though.

There will ultimately be limits for all of us and also for our children. Why must we impose extra limits on our children? So they grow up knowing how hard life is? What are some realistic limits? When children have food limits placed on them, they respond by eating whatever they want when they are old enough or like me, with an eating disorder. The limit set is moot. The best way to teach good eating habits is by modeling good eating behavior. When I realized my dd wanted to eat french fries, I stopped ordering them for myself. When I realized my dd wanted to eat ice cream for breakfast, I quit eating it for breakfast. When I realized she was wondering what the heck a soda was and why people were always drinking them, I stopped drinking them myself.

The same goes for politeness. I often see parents force their children to apologize. On the off chance a young child actually understands an apology, if they are forced it is insincere, which is more offensive to the receiver than no apology at all. Instead, if you model good behavior, apologizing, being truly sorry, being truly thankful, etc, your child will learn in time what an apology means without being forced, and will apologize truthfully and sincerely. Most kids learn thank you through modeling too. My dd spent hours dropping toys when she was 9 months old so I could pick them up, hand them to her and she could say, "Gank goo." And please is easy too, without bribes and limits. "GIVE ME MY ICE REAM *NOW*!!! please.







" "Does Sephie want her ice cream please?" "Uh-huh." "Can Sephie please remember to be calm when she asks for things so it feels good to Mamma to give those things?" "Uh-huh" "Can Sephie try some (insert 'real' food she enjoys eating here) and then have dessert afterwards?" Sometimes the answer is yes and sometimes it's no. And sometimes she will eat loads of broccoli AFTER she's eaten her ice cream. Or "Ah Peem" as the case may be.

About her clothes, I know it tought to go out in dirty clothes. Is it possible to have multiples of the same outfit? Ir if you are putting in a load of wash after she goes to bed, can you throw the day's outfit in so you can both agree that she can wear it tomorrow? IME a load of wash needs to be done once a day anyway, can you throw her stuff in each time? It is her body and she really deserves to wear what she wants. Someday she will have the social pressure to wear clean clothes and different outfits each day, but right now she doesn't and she doesn't need it projected on her.

The bottom line is that children deserve respect. No less than their moms deserve. Sometimes life deals us all a big, fat NO. Sometimes I can't say yes. Those times she is more likely to be calm about it because it's isn't just another resriction that doesn't make sense to her.

I better hit 'submit' before this gets deleted. ILs have used the computer twice since I started this post.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
clothcrazymom- thanks for your kind words and very wise post.

ok, so about an hour ago, all the TV's are OFF! NO TV IN OUR HOUSE! the radio is on, and dd is playing with paints in the livingroom, listening to some music. wow, I feel good about turning the TV off. I will take her to ger gymboree class later on today, so that will give us something to do. I need to find more activities to do at home, I am buying her more finger paints and some more paper (she has a lot but if it's new it'll motivate her and she'll be happy playing)

YEA!! This is soooo great! Thanks so much for sharing this with us







I think it will be really wonderful for all of you. It's so easy to get out of sinct and out of balance...it's wonderful that you are able to see that it wasn't working and to shift gears. I also have some great resources for all sorts of things for young children. If you are interested, feel free to PM me.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
I agree with everything Charles Baudelaire said. (I often do!







)




























































Aw, thanks!!!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

yes! i am welcome to all the activities and all the ideas about what to do with my child! my email is [email protected]

thanks, guys!

right now, dd is eating mac and cheese and a side of VEGGIES!! :LOL


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Wow, you've already gotten some great advice from Elly and Lauren and lots of moms...

You know, you didn't mention how old your child was in the first post, but I guessed 3 or 4. This is how a lot of 3 and 4 year olds are, and it is *hard*. Okay, maybe there are some mellow ones out there, but this is the age of Joe P refusing to wear anything but his power ranger suit for 9 months, and Rain eating nothing but noodles and cheese for an entire summer (except at preschool, where the cook was like a goddess to her and she ate *everything*, which did wonders for my self-esteem...).

The only way she would get into the car was if we did this elaborate game where we pretended to be stealing her friend Trevor's car. I know that sounds really deviant, but it started as a joke and she liked it... so I would be starting in the grocery store parking lot hot and sweaty and tired (single mama fulltime college student in Phoenix) and I would start loading bags into the trunk and she would start *screaming* about how this was the wrong car, we had to steal Trevor's car... and I would pack up the cart and loop around the lot and come back to our car and say "Hey, look, here's Trevor's car... let's *steal* it!" because it was just not worth pushing the issue. I think she was 4...

And she had gorgeous long blonde hair, thick and wavy and down to her butt. This was totally my thing, because when I was little my mom never let me have long hair and cut in like a boy's (think Opie) because I had the same thick fine hair. So we'd wash it once a week or so and spend an hour snuggling and watching videos while I brushed it and french braided it, and it usually stayed in the braid for a few days, then it would come out and get messier and messier until I'd finally start the process again. Sometimes I'd get my neighbor to braid it, because she was better at it and Rain was better about letting her do it, because she loved Pola and having Pola do her hair was special.

Ramble, ramble... but the point is, this all passed. I met her needs then, and modeled and low-key-discussed and didn't punish, and instead of ending up with a child who thought everything should be her way, I ended up with a person who thought meeting everyone's needs in a situation was important.

Dar


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Ramble, ramble... but the point is, this all passed. I met her needs then, and modeled and low-key-discussed and didn't punish, and instead of ending up with a child who thought everything should be her way, I ended up with a person who thought meeting everyone's needs in a situation was important.























:





















:


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## mittendrin (Nov 5, 2003)

yes, i agree with almost everything parismaman and others said. i struggle with similar problems right now.

one thing bugs me: letting them scream and not giving in to what they want is cio. HULLOOOOO...? aren't there other ways to reason with your child?


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Dar.. my daughter, Valentina is 3. she turned 3 in april.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I wanted to add my affirmation of most of the other posts. Giving in to a screaming child is NOT GD. Actually, it is neither gentle nor discipline. But not giving in is very, very hard. I have a "screamer" too at the moment and I'm working very hard not to give in. So I totally sympathize. I just keep reminding myself that some limits are necessary and I'm not doing anyone any favors by giving in--I'm only making it worse for everyone for the next time.

For me, GD is several things, one of which is finding ways to enforce necessary limits without violence. While you are working on ignoring screaming so your limits are respected, you might start thinking about what is, in fact, necessary. Hair, for example. If its a real issue, why not cut it short? If the salon is a nightmare, can you find a children's specialty salon in your area? Ours is a godsend for my son. Or, make a nighttime braid part of the routine. That way, it doesn't get tangled as much and is easier to manage. And if you can't get to it in the morning, it looks better than a rat's nest.

I think others have addressed food pretty well. Our rule is that we prepare food that balances health and taste and both children sit down to the family meals. For breakfast and lunch they get a lot of say in what is prepared. Less so dinner, though we do make an effort to include their favorites in the dinner rotations. They eat as much of what is served as they want or don't want. If they don't like it, they can have yogurt or cheese (if the protein was the problem) or fruit (in place of veggies). This means that I don't have to cook an alternative meal (an activity I strongly disagree with) but they don't have to choke down food they dislike. And even my 17 mo. old can get her own yogurt, cheese or fruit. I buy only snacks I will allow them to eat, and they are kept in an accessible place for them. They can have a snack whenever they want/need and I don't get involved beyond opening a package or something for the toddler. Yes, sometimes they eat crackers right before dinner. So what? It means they eat less dinner, maybe. But they get what they need over time and I don't stress about it.

For me, letting go of the small stuff that really isn't worth the stress means that I have the energy and perseverance to work with the big stuff.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
You know, loving-my-babies, I have to hand it to you: This is the first time in a long time that I have seen someone take advice so gracefully - and implement it so quickly. I've seen you take questioning well elsewhere too. That's a very nice trait to have.

thank you!









I am critical, sometimes, of things I don't aprove, but when I need help, and I see it, and when I am doing something I know is wrong, I get help and I implement it as fast as possible.

and I also wanted to reply to the post that said this would be CIO. I don't agree with this, a 3 year old's cries are VERY different from a baby's cries, IMO, and my baby's cries are always attended to because he cries when he has needs, so it's my responsability to meet his needs. same with my daughter BUT if she cries everytime you don't give her what she wants, will you give her everything forever? here is where I was having trouble, I have learned now that no, I have to set boundaries because it's for my daughter's well-being. I do expect crying in the next couple weeks, because I need to break habits I have allowed to be established that were not right in the first place. but I will hold her, explain to her why I am doing what I'm doing and love her! and I will only say no or make her do something when it's absolutely critical.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jakobsmami*
one thing bugs me: letting them scream and not giving in to what they want is cio.

I very strongly disagree with this. For an infant, any letting them cry is CIO, yes. For older toddlers and up, I disagree.
You CANNOT reason with a screaming, tantrumming child. Well, OK, to be fair, I cannot. We aren't talking about crying because they are scared, lonely, hungry, tired, hurt, needing comfort--those are all needs that should be addressed. This is having a temper tantrum because it may work to get mommy to do what they want. And giving in just means that it will continue to be the way that this child gets what they want (not need, want).


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

veganmama.. I absolutely LOVE your post above! (the really long one :LOL)


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I think it was Parismaman that said kids aren't *born* this way, and I will have to respectfully disagree. I think until someone TRULY has a "spirited" child, it's easy to believe (I know I did! LOL).

My dd was born screaming. She screamed and cried constantly, for the first several months of her life. When other babies were kind of cooing and smiling and laughing at silly little things, she refused. She always had an intense look on her face; she rarely, if EVER!, smiled, and hardly EVER laughed. She excelled at screaming and crying constantly, though.

Her behavior, at the age of 4 1/2, really hasn't deviated from this very much. She screams and cries and TOTALLY freaks out over everything, all day long. I'm honestly starting to wonder if there isn't something wrong with her (bipolar runs on the female side of my family).

I am raising her 2 yo. brother pretty much the same way I raised her when she was a baby. He was born content and quiet, smiled and laughed a lot, rarely cried, slept for long stretches, etc. etc. He is totally easygoing. Same parents, same house, same parenting techniques.

Sorry, I just couldn't let that one slide by.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Again, I must first worship at the alter of Dar! Thank you for your post!

And WORD to veganmamma--this forum surprises me lately!

To the OP--TV is not the problem. Food is not the problem. Screaming for her wants is not the problem.

The problem is that you have gotten into an ADVERSARIAL relationship with your child.

You try to threaten and control her and she tries to threaten and control you. No surprises there--modeling really works!

So STOP. Just stop. It takes TWO people to engage in a power struggle. If you step out of it, the struggle ends. Why can't she eat what she wants? Why can't she watch TV? Why can't she wear what she wants? If what she wants is always the "wrong" choice (in your eyes), how will she ever learn to make the "right" choices. If you force her to make YOUR choices, how does she ever know what HER choices are?

If the goal is to have a harmonious relationship and to impart some guidance to your kid, then punishment and threats and emotional abandonment don't seem to fit in. Help her. Guide her. Figure out your buttons and don't make them her problem (like tantrums in public, what she wears/looks like, etc.).

Someone on a listserv I'm on said something very wise: Your kid is going to carry YOUR voice around in their head forever. Do you want it to be a nasty threatening voice that they seek to shut off? Or do you want it to be a loving, compassionate, reasonable voice that they use to guide them into and through adulthood?


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Carmen, my hat is off to you. To see you implement some of the things suggested, so quickly is awesome. Oftentimes members will ask for advice, then get mad when they dont like what we say or the suggestions themselves. Parismaman said it best









Now, my little handful, went through poor eating issues, and tv issues as well. Both i feel were about control, and we were well on our way to a battleground. I literally turned the TV off, period for a few weeks, cold turkey. Nicholas was just not "getting" the boundries and limits i was setting, he really seemd to be struggling. so off it went, he had a meltdown, then came down from his room,went outside, rode his bike, and it was done. Same thing with food. If it were up to him, he would eat fruit rollups and icecream. so i put a moratorium for two weeks, then brought the items back into the house (it wasnt fair to everyone else, but seeing my struggle, the other kids and my dh were willing to support me on this one), with firm limits. He wants an icecream sandwich? fine, but only after lunch. no means no, and he finally "got it". no more battles. I have no problem with goodies like ice cream, or ice pops, as long as his diet was balanced. but he was alot like your daughter,. really leaning toward a diet of nothing! I also knew he wouldnt starve. Kids eat when they are hungry. And although we are not vegetarians, he is eating more chicken, meatballs, pastas, and tender bits of steak (no offense to vegetarians and vegans). If all he would eat were veggies, i'd be fine, but he was eating nothing! argggggg

I am glad there is a bit more peace in your home.








Lisa


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

OK, I can't resist throwing my 2 cents in, lol.









CIO - I have the same outlook on toddlers crying that I do for infants, it doesn't change as they get older. Are they crying because they are hungry, tired, or uncomfortable? If they are, give them what they need. Or, are they crying because they are sad or frustrated or angry? Well, again, give them what they need - in this case, hugs, understanding, a soft shoulder. Don't give them the candy bar they are screaming for, but do give them sympathy for the feelings they are experiencing. If you need to walk away because they want to be left alone, or because you are getting angry or whatever, go ahead but just like with a baby, you need to go back in a few minutes and deal with them again. Leaving a toddler to cry uncomforted sends the same message it does to a baby - I don't care how you feel, I don't want to be around you when you feel like this, I'm not going to help you, etc.

Food - I think the "eat what I give you or go hungry" approach is unfair and can easily set the stage for power struggles over food, which is NOT a direction you want to go. If DS doesn't like what I made for dinner, he can have a piece of fruit or something. I'm not a short order cook, I don't make anything else but he can have cheese and crackers or something that doesn't require preparation, yk?

Veganmamma, you said something that stuck in my head about your DD sassing you and that being OK becase you want her to be who she is. This doesn't sit well with me - I know you care, lol - because I don't tolerate sass well. I don't want to silence anyone, you can say what you have to say but you have to say it in a way that respects me. I don't sass DS, I try to respect him and be kind, and I expect the same treatment back, yk? I am wondering what your definition of "sass" is. Is it in the tone of voice or the disagreeing or what? I ask respectfully, not to be a jerkwad.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Again, I must first worship at the alter of Dar! Thank you for your post!

And WORD to veganmamma--this forum surprises me lately!

To the OP--TV is not the problem. Food is not the problem. Screaming for her wants is not the problem.

The problem is that you have gotten into an ADVERSARIAL relationship with your child.

You try to threaten and control her and she tries to threaten and control you. No surprises there--modeling really works!

So STOP. Just stop. It takes TWO people to engage in a power struggle. If you step out of it, the struggle ends. Why can't she eat what she wants? Why can't she watch TV? Why can't she wear what she wants? If what she wants is always the "wrong" choice (in your eyes), how will she ever learn to make the "right" choices. If you force her to make YOUR choices, how does she ever know what HER choices are?

If the goal is to have a harmonious relationship and to impart some guidance to your kid, then punishment and threats and emotional abandonment don't seem to fit in. Help her. Guide her. Figure out your buttons and don't make them her problem (like tantrums in public, what she wears/looks like, etc.).

Someone on a listserv I'm on said something very wise: Your kid is going to carry YOUR voice around in their head forever. Do you want it to be a nasty threatening voice that they seek to shut off? Or do you want it to be a loving, compassionate, reasonable voice that they use to guide them into and through adulthood?

OMG this is exactly my definition of gentle discipline. however, I keep hearing from a lot of people that TV is bad for their health, too much junk food is not good, etc.. the clothing thing is really my issue, so let's discuss the TV and junk food issue. it would be SO easy to just let her watch tv all day, or whenever she wants to.. but is it really in her best interest? I don't want her to grow up to be a stuck-on-a-tv-screen-all-day person, I want her to explore other things. I want her to read (she reads a lot but only when TV is off, if it's on she would much rather watch tv) then there's the ADHD thing, and studies that point towards TV being harmful not only mentally but physically as well. who wins here? help! I would feel uncomfortable letting her watch TV all day, to tell you the truth, it just doesnt feel right. about food, I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods. It seems like torture to have a yummy box of ice cream in the freezer when she can't have any. it's like counting money in front of the poor. kwim?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

LMB, I have very little time but I think it would be a good idea for you to sit down and figure out what issues you feel are non-negotiable and which ones you are willing to give to your daughter. For instance, she needs to eat good food - she can pick what she wants to eat herself from this group of food that you provide.

OK, DS is crying, must run - but one thing - is it a health or safety issue? If not, then consider her side fairly and try to say "yes" whenever possible - good luck -


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods.

Heck yeah - monkey see monkey do


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts. Just your first and last and here's what I think. Whatever you decide is ok and what's not, do not give in to her when she screams. Let her scream, kick, hit, whatever. Just don't give in!

What I think she has learned, and I can say this because this is what I learned from my mother growing up, is that throwing a fit gets her what she wants. I don't know about you, but I don't want my child to be an adult thinking that it's alright to throw a fit all the time. She won't be able to function to well in the real world like that.

My sis is like this and has no life, literally. She's 30 years old and has no friends because she does not know how to interact with other people. If you disagree with her or don't do what she wants, she throws a screaming fit. Would you want to be friends with someone who acted that way toward you? I believe this is because my mother always gave her whatever she wanted or let her do whatever she wanted when she threw a fit.

I have to say that the clothes thing is a non-issue to me. Letting her wear what she wants, as long as it's not a bathing suit outside when it's 30 below, will not be detrimental to her at all. As a matter of fact, that sort of thing can only be good for her. It allows her to express herself and shows her that you think she's ok. I agree that the junk food could become an issue because it isn't healthy but it may be that she eats it for a few days, figures out she isn't feeling too good, and asks for some wholesome food. The same with the TV, if you let her watch whatever, whenever, she may eventually decide she's bored with that and move on to something else. You always have the option of changing things if you find that she is doing this or that to the exclusion of other things and/or it is becoming unhealthy for her.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Okay, this thread took off while I was visiting with my mom and we have to run to the HFS, so I must be brief, even though I love long rambling posts.

LMB- I agree that it is awesome you have made instant changes and can see them working (and possibly not working) for you. Most people make excuses for why such and such advice wouldn't work in their situation. It's one thing to disagree and another to make excuses because you don't really want change. You have done niether and I really respect that.

Evan&Anna'sMom- I totally disagree with you. This whole "giving in" idea about crying toddlers and young children stems from a societal belief that children must be subserviant and obediant to us. A cry is a cry is a cry. I remember crying for my mamma in the middle of the night well into elementary school and being devastated if she didn't come. I remember begging her and tears and pleading for her to listen to my way and to listen to my ideas about things. Those were tantrums and I was punished for them and also sent off to be alone a cry. It wasn't productive.

WIth my father, a single dad, on the other hand, life was way different. He had joint custody of me from age 2.75 when I was weaned from the breast. We didn't have power struggles. When I didn't like something, I said so. If I didn't want to eat it, do it, whatever, I didn't have to. His role as a parent wasn't to "shape" me into anyone, it was to give me guidance and support in who I already was. He taught me that respect is something even kids deserve. The lasting 'negative' consequence is that I question authority. I can't stand stupid rules that are there for no reason. I stand up for myself to people who have had "authority" in situations. A lot of people might say that is a negative consequence, but I beg to differ. the positive consequences have been bountiful. And thankfully, I had at least one person in my life who modeled respectful relationships with children. I always felt I was a friend and even a sort of a peer with my dad. I don't think it was a bad thing. I remember how simple life was at his house. There were no struggles, no feeling powerless as a child. I always felt my words held weight.

The whole idea of not giving in is not gentle at all. Personally I find it heartless and disrespectful of the personhood of the child. And I would re-evaluate your definition of discipline too. Is discipline about teaching kids to always do what *you* want them to do? Or is it about teaching them self-discipline, the ability to say for themself that alientating others makes their life less enjoyable, empathy is good, I don't want to eat ice cream all day long, it makes my tummy hurt... etc. I want dd to come out of childhood knowing her worth.

I don't want her to think it is okay for anyone to impose their will over hers.

famousmockngbrd- When I say sass I mean she sounds sassy. At this age she doesn't have the ability to distinguish her tone completely. When she sounds "sassy" in the sense that it might cause hurt feelings or for someone to feel disrespected, I tell her in words and actions that I appreciate her POV, but a better way to get it across is ______. Or I will repeat back to her what she said to me in the way I understand it, then say, "Instead of the way you said it this time, next time you might try telling Mamma, '____." or "I am happy to get you _____, but if you say ________, I will feel much better about it." Usually she will try to repeat the words I've modeled for her. After awhile she begins to use them in context, too. The key is patience. She isn't trying to "sass" me, to be purposely hurtful or disrespectful, she is just still learning about communication.

Oh damn. This turned out long after all. And I didnt' even say everything I was thinking. AND I nak'ed my dd right to sleep. Guess we'll wait until after naptime on the HFS. :LOL


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I have a lot to chew on now.. but I'm going to read everything slowly to understand everything. Lauren.. this is the thing. I don't like ignoring cries and saying no to my child. I am torn between the two sides this thread has taken, so to speak. not in a negative light, ofcourse, but because I feel all of you are right in many ways!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
about her appearance..I admit I like my dd to look nice. she has GORGEOUS brown hair, I mean gorgeous. she knows she does, and since she has it long, it gets really messy when she sleeps. so when she gets up, she does NOT want to comb it. If I bribe her, she will let me, but I don't want to bribe her anymore! she insists on wearing the same clothes that she wore the day before! even if they are dirty! I let some things pass, but honestly, it does bother me that she go out with dirty clothes when she has a huge closet of clothes with tags on them still. am I a bad mama for wanting her to look nice? I don't want to be like my mom! and she was like this!

***Here's how I would handle it if I were you or your DD were mine. I'd simply say, "You have two choices: You can go outside looking nice, or you can stay home. You choose." Then I'd let her choose. And I'd stick with it, even if it meant not taking her to something we'd planned for or something that was special. Again, her choice.

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about the food, this is what she will do. she won't eat unless it's something she wants. and what she wants is usually junk.
***Okay, Loving...who's buyin' the junk?

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I have a whole fridge stuffed with home made organic food for her. I can't even bribe her into eating it. she just won't. some things that are good for her, she likes. for example, she LOVES cherry tomatoes. she also likes cheese. other than that, she knows there's ice cream in the freezer, and begs for it, kicking and screaming until I serve her a bowl of ice cream. (we buy it for dh and I and we give her some, I don't like saying no completely to her eating things like ice cream, I just wish she would know it's not for EVERY SINGLE MEAL kwim?
***Then SAY SO. If she screams, then let her. Honestly, until this control issue thing is settled, say no to the ice cream. It's not good for kids anyway -- wayyyyy too much sugar and fat.

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Charles- you are so right. My worst fear is that she will hate me. that I will end up being too strict with her. like my mother was with me, and now I am very resentful towards my mother. I buy my dd everything she asks for. it's not just me, my dh buys her everything too. is this so wrong? I don't want to say no to the toy at the toy store, if I can buy it, then why not?
***Just because you can doesn't mean you should. The thing is, Loving, what you have now doesn't sound like such a loving situation either. I sympathize with you with all my heart -- my mom was very strict with me also. With mine, I generally give her an either-or choice. This makes her more responsible for what goes on and helps her to prevent the feeling of being out of control.

***I honestly think that your kid feels out of control, paradoxically speaking. She doesn't have (much) external control coming from you (or maybe DH) on things like ice cream, TV, and toys, and doesn't have much internal control developed herself, partly as a result of the lack of the external controls.

***This will sound cheesy, but it might help. Play the Teddy Grahams Waiting Game. Offer her one teddy graham (or small cookie or tomato or whatever). Tell her, "You have the choice to eat that up right now, BUT if you wait for one minute, you will get two. You choose." Lengthen the time as she gets more and more control over her immediate need to gratify herself. It's a silly game, but it helps.

***The other thing I would say is offer her a choice. Either you allow me to brush your hair or you stay home. You choose. Either you pick up your things from the floor, or I will put them away at the top of the closet for one day. You choose. Either you eat what is served to you or you will be hungry. You choose.

(With all due respect, I think you should hold your ground on the food thing and not turn into a short-order cook. If your child were more amenable to working within structure, I'd think differently, but I think for now at least, you've got to hang tough. If she wants more of what is served -- like, lots of chicken and no broccoli -- then fine. However, I wouldn't be making her any dang pizza when the rest of the family is having chicken and broccoli.)

***On relatively minor stuff -- hair up or down, sandals or shoes, pink or green, skirt or pants -- I would totally let her choose.

***The other thing you can do is offer her a choice of WHEN to do something. Do you want to pick up your toys first, or do you want to clear the table first? (Either choice should be acceptable to you). Do you want to lay out your clothes for tomorrow or go to bed? These choices will allow her to feel (and BE) more in control, BUT within the logical perameters you've established. You're making the rules; how she plays the game will be up to her.

But Mama, most of all...she really, really needs you to make those rules. She really does. Rules sink in from the outside; they don't come out from within.

I so wish you luck and support. ((((((loving-my-babies))))


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
OMG this is exactly my definition of gentle discipline. however, I keep hearing from a lot of people that TV is bad for their health, too much junk food is not good, etc.. the clothing thing is really my issue, so let's discuss the TV and junk food issue. it would be SO easy to just let her watch tv all day, or whenever she wants to.. but is it really in her best interest? I don't want her to grow up to be a stuck-on-a-tv-screen-all-day person, I want her to explore other things. I want her to read (she reads a lot but only when TV is off, if it's on she would much rather watch tv) then there's the ADHD thing, and studies that point towards TV being harmful not only mentally but physically as well. who wins here? help! I would feel uncomfortable letting her watch TV all day, to tell you the truth, it just doesnt feel right. about food, I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods. It seems like torture to have a yummy box of ice cream in the freezer when she can't have any. it's like counting money in front of the poor. kwim?

I don't limit TV or food. TV has not been shown to cause ADHD. The study that came out recently had some rather big variables if I understand them correctly--and the researchers were still clear that there study was NOT cause and effect. The kids they looked at were viewing TV in the 80s--lots of fast cut editing that most kids shows today do not do. There is more, but b/c I'm not remembering the specifics right now, I am hesitant to fudge info (sample size comes to mind, and parent's recollections of how much their kids watched--not logs or other accurate measuring.)

In any event, TV doesn't hold the power over me that is once did. It is any other tool/experience in our lives. Sometimes we use it a lot, sometimes not. We watch together and we use it to make jokes, influence our play, relax, learn from, etc. Just the way we use books--and we read a LOT, too--probably more consistantly than we use TV.

The other thing is that TV doesn't hold the power over my kid. It is not forbidden fruit that he seeks to binge on when someone else is stops setting limits on it/him. The thing is, most kids who have a rich environment and aren't seeking to binge on TV, won't watch it all day--at least not for long.

We try to have healthy food choices, but we are also limited in range b/c of food allergies. So Sam has picked meals of the "healthy" potato chips for a bit, but b/c it wasn't an issue, he ate what he wanted/needed and moved on to something else. In my opinion, making dessert the "reward" for eating the meal, sends the message that the meal is something that must be "gotten through" in an unpleasant way to get to the "good stuff"--dessert.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
it's like counting money in front of the poor. kwim?

This made me laugh! But, the truth of it is in there. Sometimes we create classes of "haves" and "have nots" right in our own homes. And that sucks--I was a total "have not" growing up and it made me resent the unfairness of being a child and my parents. We try not to have 2 sets of rules or standards or treatments. No one gets punished--not me, not my husband, not Sam, not the dog. I don't tell my husband, "I'm not a short order cook. Eat it or go hungry." so I wouldn't tell my kid that. The goal is to feed people, not make one meal and eff you if you don't like.

BTW, mine is 2.5 and *fiercely* intense, and strong willed, and persistent, and "spirited." But, he's starting to be incredibly thoughtful and kind. The other day, he was upset and crying aobut something and I was comforting him and he started saying to himself: "Poor Sam. Poor Sam." LOL But, it hit me that is what he hears, not the "you think you have something to cry about now" refrain that I heard so much. He feels disappointment deeply. That's who he is.

It's funny, I came to this forum about a year ago and it blew my mind! I was thinking "Toddlerwise" might be a good resource to check out. :LOL All this talk about non punishment and no time-outs seemed SO far out there--but, reasonable, somehow. And I took that leap of faith and this post just made me see how nicely it's working!

Hang in there, Loving my Babies! You'll figure out your balance. I'm hoping you've read "Raising Your Spirited Child?" That book made me realize how different my kid is--and how to deal with that!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Loving -- good for you for wanting to work things through for yourself and taking things and thinking about them. Its true that there seem to be two primary trains of thought here, though I don't think they diverge as much as some others seem to be seeing. Good luck.

Vegan's Mom -- you know, we've disagreed before, so this doesn't surprise me. I'm a little frustrated though, at the "you don't know what you are talking about" tone. Discussion is good. Difference is good. Honesty is good. Sincerity is good. Responding as you did does not encourage any of those things. If we all parroted exactly the same thing, then there wouldn't be a need or use for these DISCUSSION forums. So we have different approaches.

Specifically, there are, in fact, limits that children need. For me, most of them are safety related. Some of them are how we treat other people. I reread my post and I don't believe that I ever suggested that children must always submit to their parents or that they should always do what we want them to do. In fact, I made some specific suggestions to remove the power struggles involved and find something that everyone could live with. For me, tantrums (beyond a certain age) are not acceptable ways to deal with people and yes, I do believe that ignoring them is an appropriate response. Note that I'm not advocating punishing for them, I'm not talking about infants or young toddlers, and I'm not ignoring the child's needs. What they need is not a mother who will give them candy when they scream and throw things. And I specifically distinguished between crying in fear or whatever made you cry at night and crying from temper.

I stand by my response, but value your alternative interpretation of things and alternative suggestions on how to handle things. I think two different perspectives are valuable. But maybe a little more respect would be valuable too.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

You don't like ignoring her cries.
Here's what I do.
I Validate her feelings.
"Soleil, I realize you must be frustrated. When you are ready, let me know, and I'll give you a great big hug.".
There is nothing wrong with crying. Soleil is 5,but I've been doing this for yrs. I cannot always make everything perfect for her. I cannot always give in. I do not always say no, but when I do, I stick to it, because I think about my answer prior to saying no. KWIM? I don't say yes, then change my mind, nor do I say no, then change my mind.
And I realize that sometimes yes, my decisions to disappoint her, and she is a child, and yes, she will cry. But at least she knows that there is a hug waiting for her, when she is ready.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

I think it's really upsetting for the _child_ when they feel that they must cry and scream for, possibly, hours to get what they want.

If you decide you are going to give her what she wants at her first request or if you decide to not give in at all, either way will be much, much better for your child. Where she is right now is just a scary place for a three year old to be. I think it's really easy to get stuck between the two (giving in sometimes, standing firm others), which is rough for the child and their parent.

If your consistant, she'll either learn you never give in (in which case the crying and screaming eventually become useless because she trusts you to mean what you say) or she'll learn that she can have what she wants (again, the need to cry and scream has been removed) Personally, I think either way can be GD, depending on the child and their temperment.

Good luck! I remember being surprised how tough 3-4 was.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Oh, I just hate it when I read an OP and have some (IMO) great stuff to say, and then others have already said it all, ITA with Parismaman and Veganmamma.

First- pick your battles and make them safety related, and few and far between.

Please don't battle about food, buy healthy food and let her eat what she wants when she's hungry- it's respectful, IMO. I would be really angry if dh laid down a plate with food I didn't like and told me that if I was hungry I had to eat that. You don't have to be a short order cook, kids rarely say no to the chicken dish but demand a stir fry- they usually just want some yogurt or a PBJ. My kids can always help themselves to something else from the fridge or cupboard. It does not have to be a battle, or a big deal.

Her clothes, I would wash them at night if possible, otherwise- let her be.

Her hair- can she brush it herself? That made my dd really happy and me too- as I cringe with ratty hair (but truthfully- that is *my* issue about *her* body which I have no right to). Also- see how she feels about a hair cut that is easier to care for.

The TV- I have one, we watch it







(I know that's not popular here at MDC), but seriously, my kids will always prefer finger painting or a trip to the park over TV, so, that's how I remedy the TV limiting.

Above all- she is NOT spoiled brat and YOU ARE A WONDERFUL MAMA! I have also never seen someone take advice here so quickly and so gracefully, your dd is lucky, you are doing great!







GD can work with your daughter, you just need to keep seeking help when needed, that's what the forum is here for, I have learned so much myself







.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Wow, you are getting LOTS of good advice. Just having a small addition:
Don't forget about the art of creative compromise! If she wants ice cream at every meal, maybe she will agree to a smaller portion (tiny bit) with each meal--rather than one larger portion a day. If there is a "dessert" item in the house, I will often serve it to dd before (or with) her meal, because otherwise she just gets *fixated* and can't relax and eat dinner. I think it is more important to consider the nutrition of the day than of the meal....and of the week than of the day.....etc.

When my dd is fighting getting her hair brushed, I will let her choose between brushing or a ponytail. Usually she picks ponytail, and the whole rat's nest gets bound up in a band :LOL. Better to brush it out immediately after conditioning it, anyway.

Dirty clothing--time to get playful and sneaky. If my dd is insisting on wearing something that I *really* want her to change out of (like her nightshirt







), then I will serve her a big bowl of yogurt :LOL. She makes such a mess that she HAS to change it! Or, let her play with some plastic toys in a basin of water--or cook with me--or whatever is sure to make it "too messy" in her eyes. Sometimes this is the only way I can get her to cooperate with a shower :LOL


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
...This whole "giving in" idea about crying toddlers and young children stems from a societal belief that children must be subserviant and obediant to us. A cry is a cry is a cry. I remember crying for my mamma in the middle of the night well into elementary school and being devastated if she didn't come. I remember begging her and tears and pleading for her to listen to my way and to listen to my ideas about things. ...He taught me that respect is something even kids deserve. The lasting 'negative' consequence is that I question authority. I can't stand stupid rules that are there for no reason. I stand up for myself to people who have had "authority" in situations.

...The whole idea of not giving in is not gentle at all. Personally I find it heartless and disrespectful of the personhood of the child...

I think crying for your mother in the middle of the night and crying because you can't have the remote control are two different things. And I think they deserve two different responses. I don't believe "a cry is a cry is a cry." I think you can respect and hear your child and still disagree with each other on a few rules (i.e. my 12 year thinks he is ready to walk the 1/2 mile to the beach and back alone, I don't think *he* is, although a different 12 year old could be, for now we go by my rule and I've fully explained to him why that is)

I too stand up for myself in situations with people of authority. I too know my worth and believe that my parents respected my personhood. But my parents had rules. They also had areas where we children had self-determination. None of their rules were arbitrary, but they were enforced (not with anykind corporal punishment.)

We could discuss the rules with them at anytime (so long as we were polite and not in the middle of a screaming fit) I learned from my parents that when you are old enough to calmly, rationally explain why a rule is no longer nessicary, you are pretty much assured that that rule will be discarded and an new area of freedom will open up. We've done the same with my son and, interestingly, he almost never challenges rules until we've alreay begun to suspect he's ready.

I'm not interested in being my child's friend or peer (which I don't think is a bad thing, nor do I think it's a bad thing if other parents do want that, it just doen't work for our family.) My son will have many friends and countless peers in his life. I want to be his parent, of which he only has two. I am interested in guiding him to be, among other things, a compassionate, self-loving, loving-of-others, confident, gentle, proud adult. I believe we need a few rules to get there and I think that is wholly consistant with GD.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
, my kids will always prefer finger painting or a trip to the park over TV, so, that's how I remedy the TV limiting.









This is what we do, too! Instead of telling dd that she can not watch anymore tv, I lure her away with a more interesting activity.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

But WHY can't the child have the remote? WHY can't the child sit on the counter? I don't think my child is crying because I won't give her the remote, I think she is crying because I'm not respecting her personhood. When I create rules that are unnecessary and are either for the sake of having a rule, or because I just can't let go and say, so what if the channel changes, she knows I am acting wrong. She knows I am disrespecting her as a person. How would you feel if your husband took the remote away from you and told you no, he didn't want to watch another channel, or he didn't want you to experiment with the buttons? It wouldn't be about the remote, it would be about the disrespect.

Safety rules are different, but they should amke sense and be few and far between. If the remote is a constant struggle, get an old remote at the thrift store. My dd just likes the buttons, she doesn't care all that much about changing the channel. I mean, it's cool when it happens but having the remote is the fun part.

When a child cries because you are imposing a rule, the first response is to say, no, this is my way and I'm the mom and I make the rules and this rule is important! But your child doesn't think so. Maybe instead of engaging in a power struggle that will leave you both feeling like crap, it would be wise to re-evaluate why the rule is there.

I said it before. My child cries because she doesn't have the communication skills to voice her opinion otherwise. SO when I take something from her and she screams, she isn't screaming just because she wants the object, but because she can't say, "Mom, I was using that, please don't take it away." Also, if she screams because I snatched it away, who is the one who is behaving badly? I teach her it isn't okay to take things away from other people and then do what I just taught her is disrespectful?

E&A'sMom- I disagree about setting age limits for tantrums. Tantrums are not an acceptable way to get a point across when one is a teenager or adult in terms of getting what you want, and I think they are rude and in poor taste. However, if the child is having a tantrum, I believe it is important to honor that in them. That the situation has put them on emotional overload. Instead of fighting it, allow it to happen. Love them through it, protect them from getting hurt and then when it's over, talk about. There is no talking to a tantruming child. It's important to be emotionally present with them. Having a tantrum is a scary, scary thing. You feel out of ontrol and helpless to the world and even your own behaviors. I am honored that my child feels safe enough to break down in front of me and even ask for my help. Many people, myself included have found that when you remain emotionally present and compassionate through a tantrum, your child will have fewer tantrums because the emotional issue is resolved. Few tantrums are entirely about the issue that sparked them. Finding out the underlying cause and resolving the problem and identifying the emotions is the key. Shutting it down just doesn't work. I think it creates, in the long run, the behavior of shutting down emotions which build up to cause problems.

Also, who am I to say to my child that she can or can't have a particular emotional repsonse to something? I certainly don't allow anyone to make that judgement for me.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

I don't like ignoring cries and saying no to my child. I am torn between the two sides this thread has taken, so to speak. not in a negative light, ofcourse, but because I feel all of you are right in many ways!
Here's the thing: I think so much depends on the child *and* on the parent and how your personalities interact. Personally, I cannot allow an "anything goes" atmosphere in my home without feeling resentful and angry. My personality is such that I need some consistancy in expectations in order to be a happy and loving mom. (Perhaps I could change this with a few years of therapy, but I doubt it, and the kids need a "nice" Mommy right now! :LOL) Obviously some parents can tolerate much more and come out with great kids in the bargain. *I* need limits, and I don't think my kids are being shortchanged by being required to live within reasonable boundries that are enforced in a firm but loving way.

Already we've heard examples of adults who were raised with few limits and turned out fine, and also those who were raised with few limits and turned out not so fine. I know of a young man whose Senior (highschool) portrait shoot at Lake Michigan (his choice of location) resulted in the bottoms of his pantlegs getting wet. (Surprise, surprise







) On the way home, he threw a major fit until his parents agreed to make a detour to Ambercrombe and Fitch and buy him a _complete new outfit!_







My cousin (his girlfriend at the time) witnessed this incident and was *shocked*. She soon after broke up with him when she saw that he expected to be able to have the same effect on her. I wonder what kind of relationships are in his future? So what's the difference between this kid and some other who grows up to be her own person and still respect others? I don't know. I have to believe the kid's personality and that of his parents play a role. I also know I *don't* want that to be my kid! I totally agree with whomever said you can meet the need for understanding and comfort without giving in to the demand behind the tantrum. YES -- this is what we usually do. But I also know from experience that sometimes a child needs to be alone to calm down. This is true of my dd sometimes. I just have to use my judgement as to whether I need to carry her to her room or not. If I'm wrong and she's still screaming after 10 minutes, I can go up and try the talking/comforting angle again. These issues are just not cut and dried. There's no *one* way to do things for every kid, every parent, every time.

I'm kind of rambling, but I want to say one more thing about the TV. See for yourself what your dd is like after a week without TV, then decide if you want to limit it or not. For us, the difference is SO great that I simply cannot buy the argument that TV has no negative effects (for my kids anyway.) I don't agree with the argument that because I don't have anyone limiting *my* choices, my children shouldn't have anyone limiting theirs. Lord knows, I don't always make wise choices. I sometimes wish I *did* have someone to tell me it's time for bed, no if's and's or but's! :LOL My parents did a pretty good job, but I can think of several instances where I wish they helped me learn to be more self-disciplined.

I don't feel I've expressed myself as well as I might. I'm really *not* an authoratarian parent! (I fear I'm seeming that way in my posts in this thread.) I just have limits that I believe in enforcing in a respectful, non-violent way, and I don't feel that is inconsistant with "gentle discipline".


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I think that alot of differnt perspectives have been brought into this discussion - and I find them very interesting.

We are a family with limits. It wasn't always this way, and it used to be alot of chaos, hurt feeling and aggervation. Finally DH and I sat down and discussed what we felt were reasonable 'guidlines' to follow. Here are some of the things we discussed:

Food - we are pretty flexible with food. We keep a wide variety of appropiate snacks on hand - and do not buy junk often. When we do buy 'treats' we just eat them when we want until they are gone. Since it is not an everyday occurance we don't get too bothered by it. The one 'rule' we do have is that at dinner time you need to at least TRY what we are searving. If you truly do not like it they you can have yogurt, pb&J or something else they can get themselves. To us this was important - because how can DS know he dosen't like something unless he has tried it.

Purchases - Dh and I have always found it fun to buy things for the kids when we are out. But after awhile it because a problem because everytime we would go to the store they would expect us to buy something....and if we couldn't or didn't want to they would throw a FIT! At first we would 'give in' - but we soon realized that was not what was best for our family. THat is not teaching our kids to be gracious for the things they do get. So we worked with DS - when he wanted something we would put it on a list (yes, I carried it around with me and would actually write it down) Just this step alone helped termendously! I couldn't believe it - just validating his desire helped him remain calm about not getting the item. We then talked about wanting special things and working towards getting them by doing special things around the house - this is nothing formal (no job chart or anything) but when there is somthing her really, really wants he remembers and will ask for jobs to do - and then we can usually agree on something. There are things that we simply say no to - and he is also now ok with that as well.

TV - for *my kids* less tv is better. THe days they watch tv all day are days that it seems we are constantly at odds - and it isn't about TV. IT just seems the TV leads them to act 'differntly' Now we watch tv at specific times during the day (still probably 2-3 hours a day) but it is not always on for them to be 'sucked into' - which is what happened at our house. We are ALL much happier this way!

Tantrums - Not acceptable. I do expect to have to teach my children how to act, so I do not punish them. I offer empathy and show them how I expect to act...but I DO NOT give in just because they are screaming and crying. Now all I usually have to say is 'Try again' and they will act appropiatly (well the 4 year old!) I really think it is doing children a disservice to not teach them how to respect others - it is not about *me* being in control...it is about them learning how to interact with people appropiatly.

That said we very much pick our battles with the day to day thing. Our number one motto is to really think about Why before we say No. It is so easy to just brush a child off with a 'no' without really thinking about it. Soemtimes if I really don't know what I want to answer I will simply say 'let me think about that and remind them if the whining continues I will proably be more likely to say no' Because it is true. I don't appreicate being yelled and screamed at all day - I work *very hard* not to do this to my kids, and I expect with the proper guidance that they will not do it to me. Most often I am able to find a way to say yes - even if it may not be the exact 'yes' they are looking for. We offer alot of choices (between things that are appropiate) and if there is no other real 'choice' I let them know that I am sorry, I understand it can be frustrating and if they would like to have something/do something else I woudl be happy to be involved, or if they just need to be held or loved I am here for them - but if they need to contiune to fight about it I will not allow them to take it out on me. And that means I leave the situation.

I have to say I find the idea of always giving in to be a bit forgein. I truly believe that children need boundries and feel safer knowing that their parents are going to be there to stop themselves from doing inappropiate things (not always just saftly realted) BUt I guess if it was always this way - and it was handled in a way that neither the child or parent really got upset because of it, they sounds good for that family. BUT from what I heard the OP say - she is NOT happy with how things are going....and to continue to do nothing doesn't seem like the answer.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

luv- I feel like life itself imposes quite a few limits on me and also my dd. I don't need to set a lot of boundaries outside that. Be kind and respectful to other people, Be safe.... hmmm... that's about it. Most limits come when we can't afford something, or we ran out of a certain food, or the stove is hot. I also set boundaries with my own body, like no pinching or twiddling, no violence, no forceful behaviors. Those "rules" don't have to be "enforced" in a way that creates a power struggle. bbl phone


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

Here's the thing: I think so much depends on the child *and* on the parent and how your personalities interact. Personally, I cannot allow an "anything goes" atmosphere in my home without feeling resentful and angry.
This is pretty much how we feel in our home as well.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

:


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Things that are outside my control, like, Soleil, I just can't afford that. SHe understands, yet it's still frustrating.
When I can't get something I want, I'm frustrated. Shit yeah, I won't take that away from my daughter.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
...How would you feel if your husband took the remote away from you and told you no, he didn't want to watch another channel, or he didn't want you to experiment with the buttons?...

It would make no sense. I'm a person who has demonstrated through the years that I will not destroy the remote. My two year old did not have that ability (nor did he want the old remote he was allowed to have.) I see a _difference_ between two year olds and thirty year olds. Not in their need for respect but in their need for guidance and limits.

I am an authority figure to my child, I'm not afraid or ashamed of that. I think he _counts_ on me for that. Not through corporal punishment, not through yelling, not through manipulation, but through consistancy and _reasonable_ rules that reflect my families values and the _needs of my child_, not his desires but his _needs._

But, and this is so important, how I handled things like access to the remote with my son _would not be appropriate with every child._ I think the path for GD is long (18+ years) and wide. Its one thing to say "Breastfeeding is best", it's quite another to say "If you don't hand over the remote control to your crying child, you are not respecting your child's personhood." I can see drawing those firm lines if we were talking about TCS, but with GD? No, I don't see GD that way.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have to disagree with the notion that not "giving in" is not gentle discipline. You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect. These are two separate issues. My mother gave in to me every time I threw a tantrum. She also disrespected me by not listening to me and not taking my feelings seriously. The reason she gave in to me was because she didn't care enough to take the time or make the effort to help me. My father, otoh, was very strict but he always took the time to listen to me and talk to me and treated me like the intelligent, capable person that I was. Although I think he was too strict and would not want to follow all of his parenting methods, I respect and love him more today than I do my mother. I also feel more love and respect from him than from my mother.

You could give your children everything they want without dealing with tantrums. You can also treat your children with respect without giving them everything they want. Not everything that I want is good for me and not everything my dh wants is good for him or maybe not good for the whole family. We sometimes have to give each other a reality check. As a family, we have the responsibility of doing the same for our children.


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## 3 little birds (Nov 19, 2001)

This is a great thread, I am glad to have read it.

Some things that have worked for us:

I absolutely cannot have junk food in the house. When we want a treat, we get single servings or use it all at once. This way we have eliminated the struggle and whining for said treat. It makes my life alot easier.

The same approach has worked for us with the TV. When it is in the closet, noone asks to watch it. When it is in the family room, it's hard to keep it off. TV has a bad effect on my kids. It makes them grouchy and irritable and bored. I think this is because they aren't really DOING anything, when they are watching TV. We use it sparingly. You'd be surprised how unimportant it becomes if you have to drag it out of the closet.









If my dd's(almost 5) throw a temper tantrum, there is usually an underlying reason (fatigue, hunger, sadness, etc). They may be throwing a fit about not wanting to pick up their toys, but when I think about it usually I can find the underlying reason. It helps me to be more understanding. That said, I don't give in, because I don't make a lot of arbitrary rules. So if dd is crying, I will hold her and try to make her laugh,etc. If I feel like I might be losing my temper I will tell her that I need to go check something in the kitchen and I will be right back. This way she has time to think and relax, but I'm not "abandoning" her. I will come back and leave until we've resolved the issue. 9 times out of 10 getting them to laugh diffuses the situation.

DS is 2 and more stubborn than the twins. Distraction is my best trick with him, esp since I am trying to reduce his nursing a bit (preg with #4).

Also, if dd says,"Mommy get me some grapes now!" I will tell her to say, "Mommy may I have some grapes, please"so that she will know the best way to ask.

HTH


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
clothcrazymom- thanks for your kind words and very wise post.

ok, so about an hour ago, all the TV's are OFF! NO TV IN OUR HOUSE! the radio is on, and dd is playing with paints in the livingroom, listening to some music. wow, I feel good about turning the TV off. I will take her to ger gymboree class later on today, so that will give us something to do. I need to find more activities to do at home, I am buying her more finger paints and some more paper (she has a lot but if it's new it'll motivate her and she'll be happy playing)


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

pugmadmama- I understand your point, but I disagree that children have a "need" for limits. I'm not saying that if you don't hand over the remote you don't respect your child's personhood, either. What I mean is that snatching it away is disrespectful. Right now I am discussing a bar of soap with my dd. It is mine. I don't want it open and chewed on. Instead of taking it away I explained that I don't care if she holds it, but please don't chew it or open it. She wants her own to open and mess with so since we're going to the store anyway, we'll look for a soap of her own to mess with. She is excited about going to the store and i'm excited that she isn't eating soap or ruining a special gift, and I haven't taken something away while she screamed in protest. I think I handled the situation in a way that respected her without creating a power struggle.

Maybe I do just disagree with gentle discipline. I still have a MAJOR beef with this "giving in" and letting your child scream and cry crap. It isn't gentle. How is a child supposed to reconcile have all their cries attended to since birth and then once they reach a certain age their mom decides all of a sudden not to.








I just read some more of the posts and remembered why I've stayed out of here for a long time. The GD forum is moving in a direction I can't respect I think.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
I have to disagree with the notion that not "giving in" is not gentle discipline. You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect. These are two separate issues. My mother gave in to me every time I threw a tantrum. She also disrespected me by not listening to me and not taking my feelings seriously. The reason she gave in to me was because she didn't care enough to take the time or make the effort to help me. My father, otoh, was very strict but he always took the time to listen to me and talk to me and treated me like the intelligent, capable person that I was. Although I think he was too strict and would not want to follow all of his parenting methods, I respect and love him more today than I do my mother. I also feel more love and respect from him than from my mother.

You could give your children everything they want without dealing with tantrums. You can also treat your children with respect without giving them everything they want. Not everything that I want is good for me and not everything my dh wants is good for him or maybe not good for the whole family. We sometimes have to give each other a reality check. As a family, we have the responsibility of doing the same for our children.

I really appreciate this post, thank you.


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## Mama J Rock (Apr 2, 2004)

This thread is so awesome. I love seeing such passionate responses with so much good philosophy, suggestions, hands on advice, good debates and everything.

My 2 cents worth is about the hair thing. I've found that if I get her hair brushed out right after a bath with lots of conditioner it's easier to comb. I keep it in a ponytail or braid most all the time so that it doesn't get food/sticky stuff in it. She sleeps with a braid most nights and that keeps the tangles at bay too. It's less of a battle for us because it doesn't hurt as much to brush.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
Well, I disagree with Charles Bauledaire, but I often do. :LOL No offense, CB.

None taken. Everyone to her own tastes.









Quote:

My child can choose what she wants to eat just as I choose what I want to eat. If I don't like what everyone is having, I'll make myself something else. ...Just because dd doesn't have the skills to make her own food or the money to buy her own food, doesn't mean she shouldn't be afforded this respect. Forcing kids to eat food they don't like or not to eat any food at all is continuing the food battle and is an ultimatum I personally find very, very offensive.
***The reason I gave that advice is because it sounds not like an issue of, "I don't like what's being served to me," but rather, "I will not eat because it pi***es you off." Hey, if I had Lil' Veganchild over to dinner, I wouldn't serve her ham with a side of sausage. I'd cook things I thought she'd like (tofu with a side of sugar peas?), but no mom should have to be a short-order cook.

In other words, it's not about tastes. It's about control.

Quote:

Allowing a child to scream for hours and hours is not gentle discipline. Well, truthfully, I feel like a lot of things that are not gentle pass for gentle discipline around here anymore. My eyes were bugging out when I read that though.
Again, my point was to take away what the child is using as a very effective and inappropriate tool of manipulation. Not allowing it to affect you renders that tool powerless. I would absolutely *not* give in to screaming...and the thing is, VM, it sounds like you've been more in control of the situation than LMB -- whose intentions were kind and good, seriously! -- so it never needed to get to that point of escalation because you'd set up the situation to avoid that.

However, different situations call for different actions. This is a more seriously out-of-control situation than a child's reasonable request or reasonable frustration.

Anyway, I agree with much of what you said.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
Above all- she is NOT spoiled brat and YOU ARE A WONDERFUL MAMA! I have also never seen someone take advice here so quickly and so gracefully, your dd is lucky, you are doing great!







GD can work with your daughter, you just need to keep seeking help when needed, that's what the forum is here for, I have learned so much myself







.


Oh, I would so like to second that! Ditto!!!! No one is perfect (DEFINITELY NOT ME!!!!) and boy, it takes real ovaries







to admit it and ask for help, esp. where raising our kids comes into play.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

CB, I agree, no short order cooking here. I keep her favorites prepared and in the fridge. When it's about control I think the bigger issue is why the child thinks they need to manipulate the power structure, kwim?


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I think a false dichotomy has been set up. The choices are not "Give in to screaming" or "Ignore screaming child completely." Responding to a tantrum does not have to mean giving the child the exact thing he or she wanted.

You can show love and empathy.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect. These are two separate issues.

I strongly believe this, too. But I am reading and considering the different pov's carefully....

Here is my strategy:
I am careful to avoid power struggles. Safety, respect, kindness--those are the basic rules. Other things can come up when we are out (wanting things that I will not buy--but there are LOTS of things that *I want that I do not buy--I try to curb our consumerism on all levels....), or when she is tired (struggling with bedtime routine, or preparing to go out in the morn).

When we are getting into a struggle (she is raising her voice, maybe crying, seeming panicky), I try to head it off before it becomes a tantrum: eye contact, physical contact, saying "I'm listening--tell me your pov....your idea (she often wants to suggest a compromise--and frequently they are brilliantly doable!). We try to "work it out". Usually, this
is the end of the episode.

If she continues in the direction of temper tantrum, then there is usually an aggravating factor (fatigue, overstimulation, hunger, etc). At that point, it is clear to me that she needs to get *out* of the situation. Giving in is not going to help! She will just be melting down about something else in 5 (1?!) minute. So then I move to empathising strongly, but remaining firm. Screaming is not reasonable behavior. Kicking and hitting (like my tantruming child) is not reasonable behavior. So we move from reasoning to damage control, and work on calming the tantrum. I do not leave her to cry alone, although she often tells me to "get away" from her--but I stay close for when she is calm enough to be comforted.

After she is calm, if she wants to "try again" or suggest a compromise, that is fine--I am flexible again. But screaming will not change my mind. I know that at times she does not have the patience/capacity to reason--goodness, she is only 3!--but I just don't think that "giving in" helps the situation. For us, it only delays the inevitable meltdown.

So, that is why I don't "give in" to tantrums. Does this make any sense? Does this seem respectful?


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
OMG this is exactly my definition of gentle discipline. however, I keep hearing from a lot of people that TV is bad for their health, too much junk food is not good, etc.. the clothing thing is really my issue, so let's discuss the TV and junk food issue. it would be SO easy to just let her watch tv all day, or whenever she wants to.. but is it really in her best interest? I don't want her to grow up to be a stuck-on-a-tv-screen-all-day person, I want her to explore other things. I want her to read (she reads a lot but only when TV is off, if it's on she would much rather watch tv) then there's the ADHD thing, and studies that point towards TV being harmful not only mentally but physically as well. who wins here? help! I would feel uncomfortable letting her watch TV all day, to tell you the truth, it just doesnt feel right. about food, I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods. It seems like torture to have a yummy box of ice cream in the freezer when she can't have any. it's like counting money in front of the poor. kwim?

Fantastic thread and responses. One of the best I've seen in GD in a long time!

I think you've hit on something very important in your last post, LMB. And I think it is something that truly a lot of people who come to MDC struggle with. It's the conflict between what we hear or feel or know is truly best for our children and what is reality in our homes. If tv is a problem for a child, then it is a family problem. It means the entire family needs to make a change, IMO. For instance, if a dad can come home after work, turn on the tv, and watch whatever he wants for as long as he wants, then he is role modeling that behavior for the child. It then makes absolutely no sense to a child why he or she can't do the same thing! Same with the eating. It doesn't make much sense to buy food that children aren't allowed to eat. If junk is the problem, then in all fairness to everyone, it should stay out of the house.

After I finished reading some really poignant posts in this thread, with several sticking in my head like Lauren's and VM's, my 2-yr-old came up and asked for something to eat. Instead of listing the options for her, which I am prone to do, I simply said ok and asked her to pick out what she wanted. She asked to open the "freeza" which means the fridge, so we did and I started naming off items that were in there since she could only see one shelf. What did she pick? Cauliflower. She could have chosen the pudding, the chocolate milk, some other "healthy" choices as well. And if she had, I would have given it to her. Some nights I serve desert with their meal and if they eat it first, fine. They have never eaten the desert first and not eaten the meal. I have gone through phases where I allowed food to become a control issue, where I did the threatening or the bribing, and it was horrible. It's such an easy trap to fall into. And so destructive.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

wow, so many interesting posts.. ok I'm going to give my kids their bath and I'll be back in a bit... (tonight)


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect
I agree with this.

Lauren, what is wrong with setting boundries? How is not giving in wrong to you? I read your last post about the issue with the soap. Why must everything be a dissertation? Cant no mean no?

I should add that i refuse to make food a battle, yet it was going to become one if i kept the ice cream soda in the house. So i called a moratorium, because it was evident to me, that Nicholas could not deal with this in a productive way. How is that not cuing into my child? He just couldnt, or wouldnt understand that you cant have ice cream at 7am.

And should a child get his way everytime? Because he wants the remote, or to watch spongebob, or to stay outside, climb on the counter, why is it not gentle to set limits?

My child is not the "boss" in this house. Bedtime is a certain time during the school year, we have to hold hands in the parking lot, and no soda. I made these rules for their wellbeing. I love them enough to say no.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
pugmadmama- I understand your point, but I disagree that children have a "need" for limits. I'm not saying that if you don't hand over the remote you don't respect your child's personhood, either. What I mean is that snatching it away is disrespectful...

Who said to "snatch it away?" I think you're introducing a strawman arguement.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
... Maybe I do just disagree with gentle discipline. I still have a MAJOR beef with this "giving in" and letting your child scream and cry crap. It isn't gentle. How is a child supposed to reconcile have all their cries attended to since birth and then once they reach a certain age their mom decides all of a sudden not to...

Toddlers are different from infants. Young children are different than toddlers. Pre-teens are different from young children. And so on. Call it "cry crap" if you must, but I think the physical and psychological differences between an infant and a toddler are very real.

For me, that you meet all your infants needs when they cry does not translate into giving in/negotiations with toddlers/young children _everytime_ they cry. Back to the remote, my son wanted to fling/stomp on the remote. I wasn't going to go out and buy him a new one (he rejected the old one that was for him anyway.) I didn't snatch it out of his hands, I refused to give it to him in the first place or if he did get it, I'd gently remove it from his hands, even if it made him cry. I'd offer to read him a book or direct him to his train set. But sometimes he just had to cry because he didn't get what he wanted (the remote.) And I think that's okay and perfectly in-line with GD.

I'm not afraid of my child's tears or of my own. I think crying can be a healthy part of life, even when it's from hearing a difficult "no." I think learning to deal with the frustration of not always getting what you want (and/or an acceptable substitute) is an essential part of childhood and it's a skill you need your entire adult life. Life isn't fair, everything is not negotiable, I don't think teaching my son otherwise is what I'm supposed to be doing as his mother.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Well said, Pugmadmama.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods.









Definitely. It also helps if you make a point of sitting down together and eating the healthy food. Make it a fun experience. Ds just the other day started eating salad (WOOHOO!) and I'm convinced it's because we sat down and ate together (we haven't been doing that so much lately.







).

I'm really focused on avoiding food struggles, as food was one of the way my parents controlled me from the very beginning and I firmly believe it lead to my long battle with eating disorders. I found that it was hard, though, to get ds to eat healthy food when there was dessert waiting at the end. So, I abolished the idea of dessert altogether. Now, if he wants ice cream before dinner, he has ice cream before dinner. He has a really small amount, though, so he'll still be hungry and he's really okay with that very small amount. He just wants to be able to eat what he wants when he wants. And then he eats dinner just to eat dinner - not to get to dessert. Maybe something like that would work for you?


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

ok, I have questions for both trains of thought. veganmama, I think we are having a great discussion, I respect all your posts and like them all, you have given me wonderful advice, and I am sorry you feel GD has gone in the "wrong direction", but I think everyone has a different definition of what "gentle" is, and every child is different, even though I do agree with you and your posts inspire me, I think it's ok that everyone has different ideas. you guys are all here because you have such a big heart and want to help me. I thank you all for being so generous with your time.

Ok, so on to the questions. veganmama.. and all the mamas for VERY gentle parenting, how do you handle tantrums? what do you think I should do when Valentina is screaming and crying and if I approach her, she will try kicking me? I would love to find a more gentle alternative than screaming back "please stop" and hugs will NOT WORK. I have tried comforting her DURING a tantrum, but it only makes it worse. I admit, this interferes sometimes with what I am doing (pretty much all the time) anything that is not for her, I have to stop doing in that exact instant or she throws a fit. what about me needing 5 minutes to catch the end of a favorite TV show? if the TV is on, it has to be cartoons, or again, another fit. it's so hard! do you have any advice on how to approach this in a gentle way?

for the other train of thought.. the same questions. what would you guys do in this case? in the middle of a tantrum, do you use bribes ever? how do you feel about punishment? I don't like these but I do want to know what works for you and why.

thanks again, guys! they say it takes a village to raise a child.. you guys are my village


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
I think a false dichotomy has been set up. The choices are not "Give in to screaming" or "Ignore screaming child completely." Responding to a tantrum does not have to mean giving the child the exact thing he or she wanted.









Definitely.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
Ok, so on to the questions. veganmama.. and all the mamas for VERY gentle parenting, how do you handle tantrums? what do you think I should do when Valentina is screaming and crying and if I approach her, she will try kicking me? I would love to find a more gentle alternative than screaming back "please stop" and hugs will NOT WORK. I have tried comforting her DURING a tantrum, but it only makes it worse.

This is a perfect example of where one-size-fits-all parenting strategies fail. My son is the same way - he does not want to be comforted when he's having extremely strong feelings. He doesn't want me voicing his feelings for him ("You seems frustrated/angry/yadda yadda"), he doesn't want me touching him. I've found through a lot of trial and error, though, that he does want me to be "present" so he can have a great big hug and cuddle or a cleansing cry in mama's arms when he comes down.

What I've learned to do is to stay very near, maybe crouch on the perimeter or, if that's too close to him, to be away but still available. I say to him very clearly that I'm there for him when he's ready.

Occasionally, too, humor breaks through, but it has to be the exact right moment (just going on feeling) and I have to be *super* careful. It's pretty risky - sometimes it's exactly right and sometimes it couldn't be more wrong (which leads to more explosion).

Quote:

what about me needing 5 minutes to catch the end of a favorite TV show?
Tivo?









Seriously, I think this is one of those situations that just has to be avoided. It's apparently a trigger for both of you. You'll probably get to a point eventually where she'll be okay with giving you five minutes but it's probably not going to be for awhile.

Quote:

for the other train of thought.. the same questions. what would you guys do in this case? in the middle of a tantrum, do you use bribes ever? how do you feel about punishment? I don't like these but I do want to know what works for you and why.
No way. No bribes, no punishments. Neither are respectful. In both cases, you're discouraging the child from having her feelings.

Do you talk with her very much about feelings? Does she have a rudimentary understanding of her feelings? Maybe in a quiet time, while she's happily occupied, painting, etc., you all can discuss the feelings that she during those times. Put names to them... talk with her about ways to handle them. It's a big thing for these small people to have such HUGE wells of emotions and not have the tools to process them. It's our job to help them discover those tools... we can't expect them to just figure them out.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
I think a false dichotomy has been set up. The choices are not "Give in to screaming" or "Ignore screaming child completely."

ITA.

VM, thank you for defining "sass" for me, what you originally said about her being "sassy" makes much more sense to me now.









About kids "needing" limits. I am having a hard time imagining a world with no limits. Limits exist. Kids need to know how to cope with them. It's not even a matter of needing them, they are just there and kids have to learn to deal with that somehow. So, we help them by letting them know where those limits are and what happens when you cross them. You don't set up an overly strict environment with lots of arbitrary limits, and you don't create a bubble in which everything the child does is OK, either. These are extremes, of course, but I think most parents tend toward one side or the other, at least in their philosophies. This is what I think is so great aout GD, is it encourages parents to be real. What I mean is, both the "strict" parent and the "bubble" parent are trying to manipulate their child's world. In GD (as we all know) you try to let them experience the natural consequences of their actions, as dictated by real life. Not fake consequences imposed by us arbitrarily, as in "no ice cream for dinner because you hit your brother," and no real consequences taken away, as in "you poor dear, you seem upset, here is the remote you wanted even though it's the fifth one we've had to buy this month."

So, obviously sometimes we have to say no and we all want to do it as kindly and respectfully and humanely as possible. To me this includes comforting a crying child, no matter why they are crying. And to offer realistic choices. "Eat this broccoli or go hungry" is not a real choice, to me. It isn't fair to the child, it's saying "my way or the highway" and disguising it as a choice. Same with "I do your hair or we don't go out." I'm sure we can all come up with better choices than these if we think about it.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

: I am really enjoying this thread!

I am definalty in the setting boundries and approaching them in a firm but gentle manner......


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

for the other train of thought.. the same questions. what would you guys do in this case? in the middle of a tantrum, do you use bribes ever? how do you feel about punishment? I don't like these but I do want to know what works for you and why.
Before I give you my idea, I must give you the disclaimer that I have never dealt with tantrums of the intensity you are describing. It sounds like you have a serious power struggle on your hands and that each tantrum is another episode in the struggle, rather than a response to a specific frustrating incident. But here goes: In a calm moment, you could approach her openly and honestly about the problem you both have. Sympathize with how she must feel and tell her how you feel. Then ask her how she would like you to respond to her tantrums. You may be surprised at how reasonable her answer is! I did this with my dd when she was 3 about whining. She came up with a solution (ignore it!) and it worked great. I would simply remind her of her own advice and let her know I was taking it. Sounds simple -- maybe too simple for your situation, but maybe not!


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I just wanted to pipe in here and say that I know a couple of children my dd's age who are being raised without "limits". No one can stand being around them anymore.

I was babysitting my friend's four year old and she kept pushing my son down the slide, which was scaring him. I continually told her in a firm but gentle manner to stop, and explained why. She wouldn't stop. I told her that she needed to stay away from the slide and find something else to do. She literally screamed and cried like ppl were killing her for ten minutes. Her parents never tell her no; her entire world was ending because I actually told her she *could not* do something!

This 4 yo. went home and told her mom that I hit her. This is no joke. At one point, when she was completely out of control and I was afraid the neighbors were gonna call the police, I held one of her arms firmly to keep her from running into the street. But I "hit her"









Her mom could have written your posts, Veganmomma. Word for word. It sounds like everything you are doing is working GREAT for you guys AT THIS STAGE, but things can and do change. I actually could have written your post word for word, until dd got a little bit older and the techniques you describe ceased to work.

I hope that is not offensive to you; I truly believe that at your dd's stage and age, you are a SHINING example of GD parenting.







But some children - especially spirited/high needs children - push things to the absolute limit, regardless of *how* respectful you are of them. Does that make sense?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

One more thing I wanted to add -

I have noticed a lot of people talking about "control" and "power". Try not to think about it in those terms. Don't think, "I have to get control of her/the situation" or "We're really engaged in a power struggle here". This sets up a combative mindset where it's you vs. her in a battle of wills. Try to think about it in more neutral terms, like "She's upset because I didn't buy her the candy bar she wanted at the store." It sounds trite but it has really helped me.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

famousmockngbrd- I agree that life has limits. I don't sugar coat life's limits for dd, but I do look for ways we can all be happy. Also, re: power struggles, the term power struggle helps me realize that it isn't about engaging in a battle of wills, and if that's what I'm doing, it helps me back off. Just another perspective.

candiland- obviously your friend and I do not agree since I stress respect for other people's person and their property. I would encourage you to go back and read Dar's post, for the perspective of a mom with an older child. Your friend's idea of respecting her own child's personhood is not the same as mine. I think it's disrespectful to my child not to teach her to respect others. I just think that I can do that in a way that is not condescending or authoritarian. I'm not the only one. Many people here at MDC have older children who learned respect this way. IMO, being respected is a great way to start teaching repect of others.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Sheesh! Go to sleep for 9 hours and look what happens!

"Do not give in" does not translate into "ignore!"

I have allowed my dd to destroy her room when she is particularly angry. You can bet this child will not have any repressed emotions. Do not be afraid of strong emotions. They are perfectly normal. These strong emotions frighten many of us. Let's examine why!

I have never punished my child. Bribery backfires. Every time.

BTW *CharlesBaudelaire*, you say you are giving your dd a choice. But when she makes the choice you withdraw something that she would love to do, therefore, in her mind, you withdraw your love for the choice she makes. That's how I see it anyway.

None of this has anything to do with "being raised without limits." Not setting limits does not cause problems; disrepectful parenting causes problems; wishy-washy parenting causes problems. You can find this in any good (written by an actual expert) basic child psychology book. If a child has not developed good self-esteem through respectful, empathetic parenting, limits or no limits will be a non-issue.

*Candiland* ~I do understand that there are highly spirited children. But I maintain that parents can find ways to be empathetic and understanding towards them too. Monkey'sMom example is great! And, with that I am in no way saying that you are doing something wrong.







I just mean that I think there are ways of being disrepectful that are very subtle, that we don't always recognize in ourselves.

*Dar* ~









*Veganmama* ~Perhaps you'd like to join us in the TCS support thread in FYT? It may not be exactly what you are looking for - many of us are not die-hard, though - but come take a look.

*LuvMy2Sweeties* ~I definitely have dealt with tantrums of that magnitude.







We've used your tactic too. It's a good one.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
CB, I agree, no short order cooking here. I keep her favorites prepared and in the fridge. When it's about control I think the bigger issue is why the child thinks they need to manipulate the power structure, kwim?


YES. Very true! My theory, mumbleheaded as it may be, is that she's trying to establish *some* form of control coming from her because she needs some more control coming from mom/dad and isn't getting it.

Being a strongwilled person myself, I always appreciated it a great deal when I knew exactly what the rules were. I am very, very uncomfortable with indecisiveness and ambiguity. My favorite boss was this guy who was an ex-cop who ran a bar. He had seven things he wanted you to do. They were on a poster on the office. He didn't give a rat's patoot about anything except those seven things. For me, that was an ideal situation.







I realize that not everyone would feel the same, but this lil' cutie sounds familiarly tempered, if you KWIM.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
the term power struggle helps me realize that it isn't about engaging in a battle of wills, and if that's what I'm doing, it helps me back off.

Good point.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
what about me needing 5 minutes to catch the end of a favorite TV show? if the TV is on, it has to be cartoons, or again, another fit. it's so hard! do you have any advice on how to approach this in a gentle way?

for the other train of thought.. the same questions. what would you guys do in this case? in the middle of a tantrum, do you use bribes ever? how do you feel about punishment? I don't like these but I do want to know what works for you and why.

As for the tv, I don't try to watch tv around dd. Sometimes we will watch a family-type thing together, but that is an event. It is rare for her to see me watch tv. Video tape it!









As for bribes, punishment....do you mean to end a tantrum, or to get those 5 minutes of tv time? My answer for both would be no, but for different reasons (beyond general avoidance of bribes/punishment).

As for the tantrums....I know you've said that her tantrums are pretty intense and pretty frequent. For me, personally, it is the frequency that would bother me more than the intensity. Avoiding the unnecessary battles (letting things go) will reduce the frequency. Your dd, like mine, sounds pretty intense--so you betcha those tantrums are going to be intense! Maybe if you examined your perception of tantrums you would be more comfortable dealing with them (don't think "comfortable" is the word I am looking for--accepting, maybe).

My dd has had (and still sometimes has) some BIG tantrums. The kicking, screaming, thrashing, GET AWAY FROM ME!! (her words) kind that (eventually) end in a ball of heaving sobs. They frustrate me, infuriate me, sometimes embarass me, and always break my heart. But they are just emotions--an overflow of negative emotions. She's "getting it out". Sure, I want it to stop asap--it's miserable for all parties! But I want it to end in a productive way. With her finding her center, finding her peace, on her own terms. I try to help her (as she will let me), but I am not desperate for her to stop. And so I don't *act* desperate for her to stop.

We talk a lot about her finding "peace in her heart". She knows what that feels like; she will tell me when she finds it. It is sweet, really







. But I try to accept those negative emotions when they come pouring out, and I don't try to stop the flow thru bribes, threats, or suddenly changing my position. Some days just really, really stink, and I handle it badly--sometimes I walk away from her and close a door behind me because I just can't stand the screaming







. But then I count to 10 and come out and try again. But, no, I don't give in, and I don't try to make her stop tantruming. I try to comfort her (yeah, right), and I try to give her words to express her outrage more appropriately and effectively.

Honestly, I think the very best thing to do for Valentina is focus on prevention. Keeping the limits simple, necessary, and consistent should help, because she will learn that some limits remain no matter how outraged she gets (carseats would be a prime example). Be proactive by responding with playfulness, finding ways to say Yes as often as possible, and seeking her suggestions for a compromise when the answer is No. My dd has gotten *really good at compromise--and will suggest compromises when I am too tired to think of one--when I am resisting the idea of compromise because I just want *my* way--and it will so often be such a brilliant idea that I would have never thought of. She makes me so proud--makes up for all of the kicking and screaming :LOL


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
...Ok, so on to the questions. veganmama.. and all the mamas for VERY gentle parenting, how do you handle tantrums? what do you think I should do when Valentina is screaming and crying and if I approach her, she will try kicking me? I would love to find a more gentle alternative than screaming back "please stop" and hugs will NOT WORK. I have tried comforting her DURING a tantrum, but it only makes it worse...for the other train of thought.. the same questions. what would you guys do in this case? in the middle of a tantrum, do you use bribes ever? how do you feel about punishment? I don't like these but I do want to know what works for you and why...

I personally have not tried bribes or punishment in regards to tantrums as I don't think they work in the long run.

In our case, my son, like your daughter, escalated his tantrums if I tried to physically comfort him or even stayed very close by him. One time, I said to him, as calmly as I could, "I'm going to go sit on the couch. When your ready, you can come sit with me." (you could see the couch from the kitchen, but the couch faced away from the kitchen.) Honestly, I did it for myself that time as I was afraid I was going to yell at him or shake him or do something I would later regret very much (10 years later I can perfectly picture that kitchen/living room we moved out of six years ago and I remember how desperate I felt...not a good memory)

As soon as I walked away, he started to calm down. I mean, he was still in a tantrum, but it was like he went over the top of the hill and started coming down. Within a short period of time, he was by my side on the couch and we talked about how scary and sad it is to feel like he did when he was laying on the kitchen floor.

Next tantrum, I tried the same thing, with the same result.

What I eventually figured out about my kid, by trial and error, is that he is _very_ easily over-stimulated, even by me or his Dad. I had suspected that about him as a baby and his toddlerhood only confirmed it. Even now, as a pre-teen, he needs _way_ more alone time than I or his father do and more than the parents of his peers say their kids need. He still occasionally needs our help to process things, but for the most part he goes to his room and shuts the door or walks around our yard (it's enclosed by trees for privacy) and talks it out with himself.

Once I figured out the "key" to my kid (his overstimulation issue), parenting got much, much, much easier. Good luck to you and your daughter.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
...Ok, so on to the questions. veganmama.. and all the mamas for VERY gentle parenting, how do you handle tantrums?

Not all kids want to be comforted during a tantrum. When you distract, punish or try to force comfort, you're basically trying to shut the tantrum down, right? I think the emotion need sto be expressed. Sometimes I need to sit near my dd and just let her freak out. Sometimes she tells me not to look at her. I know a lot of kids who are like this. They want you nearby, and to know you are listening, but they don't want your input whatsoever.

I say, "Mamma is listening, Sephie. I hear you." And if she seems like she wants me to go away, I say, "Mamma is going to sit right here and when you are ready, we can talk about it."

Here are some excerpts from one of my favorite articles in mothering magazine.

Quote:

When an upset arises, we want to put an end to it as quickly as possible. Some parents try distraction or reasoning; others use intimidation and force. Whatever our methods, conventional wisdom has it that it's our job to end the upset. We require our children to tuck their upsets away and be "good" again. We don't want them to grow up to be uncivilized, and we don't want to feel or look like "bad" parents with "bad" children.

But what if, contrary to what we've grown up believing, tantrums and other expressions of feelings are actually useful? What if a tantrum is like an emotional sneeze--a natural reaction meant to clear out foreign material? Perhaps the usual struggle of parent versus child at emotional moments doesn't have to take place. Perhaps we can throw away the mental chalkboard on which every meltdown is a mark against our children or ourselves.

Quote:

It takes courage to listen to your first tantrum from beginning to end. It's usually an emotional wringer for the parent who tries it. Like opening your eyes underwater for the first time, you may worry that you are doing damage. But the results are almost always thoroughly convincing. Your child feels heard. She sees that you've stayed with her through the worst of how she felt. Her mind clears, and life satisfies her again.

As parents gain experience staying close through their children's emotional storms, they find that the trip no longer feels quite so risky or grueling. Their child's upsets, which once seemed to point to a serious failure, now simply signal the need for a good cry, or a good tantrum. The child's system is on the fritz, no blame or shame involved, and the remedy is wet and wild, but simple.

Quote:

Tantrums arise as children's expectations become more ambitious and more detailed. Their ideas of what they want to do are grand, yet their abilities grow only through the messy process of trial and error.

Quote:

When he was two, my younger son had a set of tantrums that are etched in my mind. He was intently hitting a balloon toward the ceiling over and over again. I thought nothing of it until he suddenly collapsed in an active frenzy. I came closer and gave him my attention, not knowing what had happened to set him off, but knowing that once he had begun, he needed to finish, and needed me there. After five minutes or so, his mind cleared and he got up, we connected, and he went back to hitting the balloon high again. One hit, and he threw himself back down, kicking and thrashing. At that point, I realized what was going on: he thought he ought to be able to make the balloon hit the ceiling, and he couldn't! His expectation stretched beyond his ability. After another, shorter blast of frustrated energy, he finished, connected with me, and picked up the balloon to play with it again. He was finally happy with what he could do with the balloon. These "learning leap" and "expectation adjustment" tantrums are vital, integral parts of the learning process. When your child's learning curve is high, when she's hopeful and active, tantrums may be frequent; she is regaining her ability to try again when she has failed and adjusting her expectations of herself, of what she's permitted to do, and of you. She is learning by experience and blasting away the negative feelings that sometimes come with trying so hard and meeting disappointment. Tantrums are the "sneeze" that ejects the foreign material of frustration from your child's mind and body, so she can be proud of her abilities and her circumstances again.

Quote:

Probably the most important step you can take to handle a tantrum well is to plan for it. Generally, if your child has a tantrum every evening in his high chair, you should simply include that tantrum in your dinner plans. You can keep the oven on and put dinner back in when the tantrum begins, so it's still nice and hot when it's over. Or if sharing the fairy wand drives your daughter wild, you can decide in advance to stay close to where she and her friend are playing, ready to gently keep her from grabbing the fairy wand from her friend.

Now you've prepared yourself. When your child becomes edgy, move closer. Sometimes, the beginning part of listening to a child's tantrum involves deciding not to placate her. If your daughter has chosen a dress to wear today but starts a fuss when you try to put it on her, you could ask her what other dress she wants. If she gets upset about the second dress she chooses, you can be sure you have a child who is seeking emotional relief. All you need to do to help her recover is to stop bringing dresses. Gently say, "I think you'll have to choose one of these two you picked out." This gives her permission to begin the tantrum she needs to become reasonable again.
Gosh, I'm having a hard time picking excerpts, I would suggest reading it all the way through. It is a great article, and more GD centered than TCS, so maybe more pallatable to those here.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Another great article from Mothering Mag...

Quote:

When we want our children to do something they don't want to do, it is almost impossible to resist the temptation to use the enormous physical and emotional power we have over them. Yet attempting to coerce a child to do something she doesn't want to do neither works effectively in the short term nor supports our long-term needs. (The only exception comes when there is threat to health or safety, in which case NVC suggests that we use nonpunitive, protective force.)
http://www.mothering.com/15-0-0/html...mpassion.shtml


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

Wow this entire thread has taken off, in such a great direction too.

Around here I do my best to prevent tantrums, but if it needs to happen to restore equilibrium in my child, I'll do my best to not add negative energy to it, or try to end it. If it gets to that point, I just tell ds to "get it out, get it all out, I'm right here when you're ready". I am there, nearby, if not holding (one likes holding, one doesn't) him. Neither of them like me talking, humming, or adding anything to the moment. They just need to get all that anger and frustration out so they can have the ability to be rational again.

I am not afraid of tantrums.

I am not embarrassed by tantrums.

I am not concerned with the perception anyone else might have.

I am not swayed by tantrums.

BUT...

I am always affected by the depth of feeling pouring out of my tiny child.
I want to help him work through it, and pick up the pieces afterwards. I don't want him to stuff all that emotion inside. I want him to feel like he still has dignity when he is done. I don't want him to feel ashamed for "losing it". I want him glad I'm on his side, not cowering from me, feeling like he didn't live up to something I wanted in him. I want those moments to prove I am there for him, no matter what. No matter how loud he yells, screams, or cries. I am there to support him, not take control ofthe moment, but support him through the moment.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

If you bring out what is inside you, what you bring out will save you; but if you do not bring out what is inside you, what you do not bring out will destroy you. ~The Gospel According to Thomas
Two things bothering me:

1) The fear that if one lets her/his child express anger the child will become an adult that screams for everything he/she wants.

Examine this theory. Test its validity. All of the last few posters have addressed this eloquently. Again, allowing a child to express his/her anger does not translate into doing nothing.

And now I can't think of the second thing. :LOL


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Ok, the second thing is the notion that GD must somehow "work." And if it doesn't then we must bring in the big guns.

If you are practicing GD as a means to get your child to do things the way you want him to do, or to mold him into a complacent, happy child then you are on the wrong boat, IMO. The game is lost before you even begin.

Again, a parent must adjust his or her perception of children: There is no "it works."


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## bunnybartlett (Aug 27, 2002)

last night.

Sunmama- I am glad to finally see someone mention COMPROMISE in this thread.We use this alot.My 2.5 yo is quite the negotiator.It heads off tantrums and everyone gets what they want.

Lovin- The tv issue is a struggle here too. DD cannot self regulate and will happily watch all day if I let her.Hubby and I enjoy tv in the evening.We taught her that is grown up tv time and she has her time during the day.Also a hint...close captioning isn't just for the deaf it's for ppl with children!!!

Paris- As for the hair thing...with my dd hers justs gets gross.She is constantly pushing it out of her face with her yogurt,sand,paint etc covered hands.Problem solved with a ponytail























Linda


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

I am really enjoying this thread. We have had some really tough days as of late, and this has really set my mind thinking.

My question is this: what do you do when the tantrum really, genuinely makes you feel like you're going to lose it? For example, dd1 will be in her carseat and we'll be going somewhere, she'll hand a toy to her sister, then be desparately mad that her sister won't give it back, and I won't allow her to take said toy back from her sister. The cries escalate to all out screaming and my concentration on the road is completely blown. There is no possibility for a mom time out there, and part of me just thinks that dd is being ridiculous. After all, she handed her sister the toy, then two seconds later wants it back, then screams for all she is worth for ten minutes. I mean, it seems like such a bizarre and over the top reaction to me that my first reaction is to tell her to stop her crying. I'm starting to realize more and more how inappropriate that is, but I'm still not sure how to deal with things like this without resorting to yelling, demeaning, or overpowering. I guess I could ignore the tantrum in the car, but she can literally go on forever. Even when I can tell the steam is going out of the tantrum, she will still cry and howl and make noise for another few minutes, just to let us know she is still mad.

Please be gentle, I am really trying to learn and correct. (And loving-my-babies- thank you for being so open and honest in starting this thread!







)


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Two possibilities with your dd Stacymom:

1) She thinks, "Ok, you can have my toy for a second but then I want it back. Hey, ain't I nice for letting you touch it? What? You're not giving it back? What the heck does that mean you won't give it back? I said just for a second! Now mommy says I can't have it back it either! What? How is that fair?"

2) She gives it, then decides, "Hey! That wasn't such a great idea! Can I have it back? No? Why not? I had it first. I just changed my mind is all. What? Mommy says to stop crying about it. But I'm scared (lost, lonesome, bored) without my toy. I can't change my mind? It's not OK? That makes me so sad."


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

Ok, ParisMaman, I appreciate you making me think.









So, do I take the toy back from my younger dd and give it to the older dd? And what about when dd1 comes up to dd2 and takes something from her out of the blue and then throws a tantrum when I insist that she gives it back? How do I balance the often contradicting wants of two very young children?

(Sorry to hijack the thread...







: I'm learning so much!)


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Man, I have never had to be a car mom. I don't even want to go there!









Ok, the first thing you do is validate everyone's feelings.

(No, I can't even explain to you how this would go in a car!)

Basically, just let both express how they feel. "Honey, you feel upset because you want your toy back." "Uh huh." "You gave it to sister and now you would like to have it back." "Yah." To sister, "So-and-so feels upset because she'd like to have her toy back. If you wanted your toy from her how would you feel?" "Angry." "What can we do so sister won't feel that way anymore?"

If none of that works, "How 'bout if I turn up the music and we play wigglies?" Or something silly.

Quote:

dd2 and takes something from her out of the blue and then throws a tantrum when I insist that she gives it back?
Don't insist that she give it back. Model proper ways of asking for things before taking them. This includes asking your children each time you take something from their hands (lots of parents grab too!). Talk about gentle ways to ask for or take things from people's hands. But don't chastise for grabbing or not being able to share. And continue the same dialog as above: "Your sister took that toy from you." "Yeah!" "Is that how she should take things?" "No! She should ask me." "It makes you angry when she take things without asking?" "Yeah! I don't want to give it to her." blah blah blah I know it sounds strange but it really works for me. And I was reading something last night about how Gandhi said something like all things seem unnatural until they become natural or something like that. I'm sure I'm a little bit off, but you get the gyst.

Or try a timer. Sister can have the toy for one minute, then other sister can have it for one minute.

Or just find something else to do.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

I cannot _wait_ to have conversations with my kids like that, ParisMaman! When the toddler takes everything from the baby, it's a wee bit different. 









We still go through all that stuff but the 'how to talk...' phrases are really hard to find effective, ime, when the children are under two or three years of age.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

My older ds, who is now 13, is a very spirited, head strong person. From the time he was about 2 he would not let me comfort or hold him in any way when he was angry. Some children do not want or need that. It is very hard for me to accept this because as a child I always wished my mother would try to comfort me when I was upset but she never did. I do think, however, that they still need their parent there. I still go to my ds when he storms off to his room to tell him that I am here to talk if and when he wants.

Maybe just tell your dd once that you understand how she feels and are ready to talk to her when she is ready. Stay close and make sure that as soon as she comes to you, you focus all of your attention on her and the situation at hand. I would definitely not use bribes or punishments. Bribes just reinforce the behavior. Punishments might send the message that her feelings are wrong or bad. When you are both ready, you can talk about different ways for her to express her feelings.

I agree with many other people on here that there are areas in between giving in to and ignoring the child or the behavior. Just because you do not buy your child a candy when she throws a fit does not mean that you ignore your child.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I haven't read the whole thread yet...just wanted to say i really appreciate the advocating for kids that i see going on here, in particular from veganmomma.

My dd has never never run into the street, and doesn't argue about being picked up to cross the street, but we have disagreements about riding in the stroller (as opposed to walking) all the time. Why? Well, the first two are safety issues and are *truly* not negotiable. Riding in the stroller vs walking, however, is about MY wants and my impatience, and thus it is basically arbitrary, and therefor, negotiable. so, we negotiate.

I suspect the negotiating will get easier when she gets more verbal though.. :LOL

anyway, keep it up mommas! i know everyone's making suggestions for LMB, but it's helping me, too!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Tantrums--Frequent and intense tantrums here! Most of them have to do with his expectations for things that no one else knew about or anticipated!

For example, yesterday we were heading into the unfinished laundry room area. There is a step down and then a path betw. boxes and stuff. At the top of the step Sam reached up to me behind him. So I figured he wanted to jump off the step--very common. Well, we had been having a particularly playful morning and were in the middle of "pretend rushing" to get dressed and go to a friend's, sooooo I helped him jump off the step and then swung him down the path into the laundry room. He FREAKED! Started sobbing and saying something that I could not understand through the crying--this further infuriates him. I could not figure out what had gone wrong, but I kept trying to reassure him that I was there, cooing "Poor Sam, poor Sam," and alternately trying to figure out what he was saying. I also walked away in frustration--this made it worse--it always does, but I have to try it every couple of months it seems.









He finally (after about 10 minutes) conveyed, "I didn't get to do it! I didn't get to do it!" Turns out he had wanted to weave his way through the boxes and I had taken that experience from him. So I offered to go back and do it again. He did and his mood COMPLETELY shifted! I told him I was sorry for what happened and he told me how sad he had felt. Usually a nursing session follows, too.

He does not do well with deviating from his plans. One time my husband put a waffle in the "wrong" slot in the toaster (apparantly I had always put the waffle in the slot closest to me! Who knew an 18 mo. old would notice or CARE!?). He was beside himself. But, once we figured out what the problem was we resolved it. He just wanted it done in the way it had always been done. It's just who he is.

So, we try to let the tantrum happen, but in our case we need to do a fair amount of problem solving, too.

Punishment--

Someone posted this recently in another conversation and it seemed very reasonable and wise to me:

If your goal is to make your daughter conform to a certain behavior then
punishment is one tool many people use.

If your goal is a more joyful family life and great relationships, then
there are better tools.

One of the reasons orders and punishment seem to work is that it makes
sense. The most direct path to getting what you want is to tell someone and
have them do it. Another reason is that it *looks* like it works. Compliant
kids will do what they're told because fighting for what they want isn't
worth it to them. That's conveninent for parents! But not a good character
quality for a child when she's with people who are less trustworthy than her
parents (a boyfriend? a pushy friend? an adult who seemed nice on the
surface?) and definitely not a useful character quality as an adult. Defiant
kids may also comply. But then they'll do what they want when parents aren't
looking. (We can't really control what they do. But we can create the
illusion that we can control them!)

Punishment can raise great kids. It can also raise kids who want out of the
home as soon as possible and kids who are destructive and disrespectful. The
success of punishment based parenting depends on the child's personality and
the other ways the parent is relating to the child.

Parenting based on respect doesn't depend on the child's personality and it
is the whole of how a parent relates to the child.

TV (and Limits)--

I think that if you take *anything* away, people are going to want to binge on it when they get it. If I took books away from Sam and only allowed them on our weekly trip to the library, he would probably freak out when I tried to leave the library after an hour. As it is, we read up to 20 books a day, so he never feels threatened about losing them or about library time ending. I just view TV the same way.

And I think that giving a kid a week with unlimited whatever after having limits is not a good litmus test. There will be a binge period b/c who knows when it's going to be taken away again. Just as if my boss called and said "Take the week off--paid!" I would behave differently that week than in another week if she had said, "Take the year off--paid!" At the halfway point in the year off, I doubt I'd still be sleeping half the day, ordering in, laying by the pool, and having movie marathons.

Anyway, sorry to post a novel! I can't sleep. I've been enjoying this thread and some of the great points made (esp. about GD not working and then needing to bring in the "big guns!").


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Yeah, Playdoh, I knew someone would call me on that. But I was hoping people would get ideas and then adjust to the level of the children's verbal skills/comprehension. Children and babies still understand when the parent is being empathetic even when they are pre-verbal.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Monkey'sMom - My dd is just like your ds. In fact, my mom was saying that she'll always be like that (must have my universe in order at all times). I'm not so sure, since I validate her needs the way I do. She also has the moments like the running through the boxes thing - and I just love it when we can figure out the problem together!


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

ParisMaman, I didn't mean to 'call' you on anything, I'm really sorry if it came across that way. I just wanted to speak up on how difficult it is to employ those conversation-empathizing tools when children are very young.

In our home, it can go:

baby has toy
toddler comes and take it out of baby's hands
baby cries (or looks blankly early on!)
toddler runs away
I look at crying, angry baby
go find toddler
try to talk about the toy
toddler panics, runs away screaming
go pick up baby, comfort
find toddler
try again to discuss what it feels like when he wants a toy baby has
toddler runs. ;-)

The other option:
toddler has toy
baby crawls to toddler and takes it away
toddler freaks out, screams, cries
baby looks at toddler
I try to comfort toddler, talk about feelings
toddler in a panic, screaming
Me: 'hmm..no one can hear me, interesting.'
baby cries after seeing toddler cry
toddler grabs back toy
toddler runs away
baby cries
pick up baby, comfort
go find toddler


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Ok, Ok! :LOL

Sorry! I meant I knew someone would tell me that it won't work with the little ones.

But you can still tell the toddler "Hey! That sucks that he just took your toy!" Even if it doesn't solve anything or prevent his crying, your toddler will still hear you, whether you believe it or not!

But perhaps I'm just naïve?


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Yeah, good to say all those things. And to repeat them each time these things happen (daily!) I just smile sometimes because with all the shrieking and crying, truly it is better to just shut up and hug one or both. Better than raising my voice to say, 'oh, you feel upset when he takes things out of your hand!' I sound like an idiot.









Believe me, I want to have the full cartoon I read in 'How to talk so kids...' I'm living for that day! A full conversation about feelings with lots of response from the child. Negotiating use of a home computer. Negotiating a family trip.

Bring it on!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Gosh, I'm having a hard time picking excerpts, I would suggest reading it all the way through. It is a great article, and more GD centered than TCS, so maybe more pallatable to those here.
ITA!!! Thank you for bringing up that article, Veganmamma. It is also my favorite, and one I recommend frequently to friends who are struggling with tantrums. I was lucky enough to read it just as my ds was moving into tantrums at early age! (dd has always been more into whining than tantruming.) I feel certain that using the listening technique from the atricle has been one reason his tantrums are much less frequent than I thought they would be.

As this thread moves along, it seems that many of us who appeared to be on "opposing" sides of the tantrum/giving in issue are really not so far appart after all. The biggest difference seems to be in how many and what kinds of limits/rules a parent sets up in the first place, rather than how to handle a child who has overstepped them. This thread has prompted me to think about how and why I set limits, and self-evaluation is always a good thing! I'm still apt to have more limits than some others here, but I'll keep evaluating which ones are really worth it!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Expectation inventory (from Your Child's Self-Esteem):

Write down every expectation and observe it in light of these questions:

Why do I have this expectation?
Where did come from?
What's in it for me?
Is it based on my needs or my child's?
What purpose does it serve?
Does it realistically fit this particular child at this age and with this temperament and background?

Another quote from the book:

"Please note: letting a child own his feelings does not mean letting him do anything he wants. There is a vast difference between stopping an act and dictating to emotions. "

She goes on to say that, for example, when we tell a child to wait until after lunch to eat ice cream we are telling the child to feel as we do. She says to validate the child's desire for ice cream (you have the right to your feelings even though they are different from mine) and then tell the child, "but you'll have to wait until after lunch. (limits act) If you're hungry I'll start getting lunch ready."

Now. This is not for me. But if you really want to limit ice cream (or whatever), I think this is a healthy approach.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

How old is your toddler, playdoh? I wonder if, in the second scenario, at least, you could speak toddler and say, "Wow, that stinks that baby took your toy. Maybe we can find something to trade baby for the toy." And then model the trading. Maybe baby will go for it (especially if the items are notably similar in shape, size, texture, that sort of thing. Then toddler learns a little about rudimentary negotiation, too.

In the first scenario, it might be sufficient to just comfort baby, show empathy both verbally and physically. Young toddlers don't get sharing, of course, but they can start to "get" the impact that their actions have on others.

I remember being frustrated by the idealism in "How To Talk..." when ds was much younger because, hey, I wanted that ideal scenario. :LOL He didn't have the verbal skills for it. But he could still pick up on basics, especially if I stressed certain words - "trade" for example - and modeled physically what I was trying to get across.

Apologies if you've done all that already.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
She goes on to say that, for example, when we tell a child to wait until after lunch to eat ice cream we are telling the child to feel as we do. She says to validate the child's desire for ice cream (you have the right to your feelings even though they are different from mine) and then tell the child, "but you'll have to wait until after lunch. (limits act) If you're hungry I'll start getting lunch ready."

Now. This is not for me. But if you really want to limit ice cream (or whatever), I think this is a healthy approach.

Not for me either. For those who would use it, though, the thing I'd change in that scenario is to eliminate the word "but." People - especially children - generally hear "yes, but" phrases as no.... it's not validating, IMO; it's dismissive. "Yes, I hear you, but what you want doesn't *really* matter." Ever since taking a mediation class (which was pretty much all about communicating with others), I've tried mightily to eliminate "yes, but" phrases from my vocabulary. On the occasions when I've slipped, I can see ds physically turn off to our communication when it comes out of my mouth. Interesting.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Great articles, VM. Definitely stuff to print out for dh to read as we really need to get on the same page about coercion and threats. Sometimes I wonder if that is a more male tendency, as it is one of his "defaults" when parenting gets tough.

LMB, echoing what others have said about staying close and available during tantrums. That's always been the best approach around our house.

Stacymom, my oldest isn't a toddler anymore but when she and her little sister fight over something and it starts to turn into a screaming, shoving match, I try to encourage them to find a creative solution. Trading works wonders! My 5-yr-old is getting better and better and doing that now with her 2-yr-old sister. And it works in the car. In the times that there isn't something to trade, I usually focus on the "victim" in that situation, giving her lots of comfort, physical and verbal, and I often ignore the "perpetrator". It's amazing how compassionate and giving the "perp" usually becomes! We do have lots of talks about respect and compromise. Respect for others and their property is an expected behavior around here, and my children don't snatch toys from other children, push and shove, cut in line for the slide, or any other behaviors that they wouldn't want other kids to do to them. When they see other kids behaving in hurtful ways, they usually want to talk about it, so we get lots of great "teachable" moments!

We have very few "written in stone" rules around our house but the few we do have are safety rules. No going down the driveway by yourself, no leaving the yard, no going outside by yourself, that sort of thing. Again, those are rules that my children have yet to challenge, and I hope that part of the reason is that they trust us not to impose arbitrary rules of convenience.

Now, if anyone has any great suggestions for the most appropriate way to deal with a 5-yr-old who has just started kindergarten and who comes home after a long day and has had so much stimulation that she is hyper, argumentative, and prone to strong mood swings? This is a brand new area for us and I want to handle it the best way I can. I wasn't very good about it yesterday and had to do some apologizing for my short temper. I asked her to come up with some ideas to help her decompress in the afternoons and we will write some of them down this afternoon when I pick her up from school. But if anyone has BTDT and has some great suggestions, I'm all ears!


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

playdoh!







: Did you look in my window and observe my children before you wrote your poast? That's exactly how it goes at my house. And I too think, "Bring on the Verbal Children!" I'm ready for all that- it's this pre- and partly-verbal stuff that has me tied all up in knots.

Thanks for all your ideas though- if nothing else, it's really helped me look at things a different way today.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Great thoughts, Dragonfly! Yes, I do the trade thing and I agree, it works for baby, doesn't work for toddler since he is too smart for that. But hey, I'll take it for now with the baby!

I probably made it sound like I simply look at the baby, not emphathize with him. That was just a rough outline of a common scenario or two, not fleshed out with all the vocab I do use. Toddler hitting baby is another one altogether...fun, fun as all moms of more than one know so well.









Sometimes all one can do (imo) is empathize and find a good alternative or replacement. Sharing is tough for many years so it's no good to reprimand or force, ime. I have so many years ahead of the 'he took my ________!' and 'he looked at me!' or drawing the line in the car where one can't touch the other (at least I did that with my siblings).


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
Sometimes all one can do (imo) is empathize and find a good alternative or replacement. Sharing is tough for many years so it's no good to reprimand or force, ime. I have so many years ahead of the 'he took my ________!' and 'he looked at me!' or drawing the line in the car where one can't touch the other (at least I did that with my siblings).

Just a couple of days ago my older dd gave a big sigh from the backseat during an especially challenging car ride with her little sister and said, "I really wish there were a wall right here between Anna and me." I couldn't help but laugh because there have certainly been a number of times I've wished for for one of those sound proof remote control windows between the front and the back seat!


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Not for me either. For those who would use it, though, the thing I'd change in that scenario is to eliminate the word "but." People - especially children - generally hear "yes, but" phrases as no.... it's not validating, IMO; it's dismissive. "Yes, I hear you, but what you want doesn't *really* matter." Ever since taking a mediation class (which was pretty much all about communicating with others), I've tried mightily to eliminate "yes, but" phrases from my vocabulary. On the occasions when I've slipped, I can see ds physically turn off to our communication when it comes out of my mouth. Interesting.


Good point. I tend to follow PM's way of phrasing only without the "but."

E.g., "you would like some ice cream? Okay, we'll eat some lunch and then have ice cream."


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Not mine. The book's. But I like your version.

I've spent way too much time on this thread today! But I am avoiding the MIL. So you all understand, right? This is so much more interesting! And less painful.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Not for me either. For those who would use it, though, the thing I'd change in that scenario is to eliminate the word "but." People - especially children - generally hear "yes, but" phrases as no.... it's not validating, IMO; it's dismissive. "Yes, I hear you, but what you want doesn't *really* matter." Ever since taking a mediation class (which was pretty much all about communicating with others), I've tried mightily to eliminate "yes, but" phrases from my vocabulary. On the occasions when I've slipped, I can see ds physically turn off to our communication when it comes out of my mouth. Interesting.

I agree with this and it's something I have to watch a LOT. Things just come out of my mouth and I stop and say, "Why did Mamma say that? That was wrong, what Mamma should have said is _____." or "Hmmm... No. I shouldn't have said it that way. Mamma needs to think of a better way to say it, huh."


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
Now, if anyone has any great suggestions for the most appropriate way to deal with a 5-yr-old who has just started kindergarten and who comes home after a long day and has had so much stimulation that she is hyper, argumentative, and prone to strong mood swings? This is a brand new area for us and I want to handle it the best way I can. I wasn't very good about it yesterday and had to do some apologizing for my short temper. I asked her to come up with some ideas to help her decompress in the afternoons and we will write some of them down this afternoon when I pick her up from school. But if anyone has BTDT and has some great suggestions, I'm all ears!

Sorry to get







T but I had to respond to this. I was this child growing up. School just tweaked me all out and when i got home I was grumpy and defiant. And by defiant I mean, my care giver or parent would offer me a snack or a treat and I would snap at them or throw a fit. What I remember liking after school, was walking home or to a sitter's house, and then being alone for a bit. IMPOSSIBLE at a sitter's house, but a little easier for an only child at home. The walk home would help me space out and still be moving my body, and then I could just mess around with toys or books or art stuff or whatever when I was by myself. I would space out to the TV at the sitter's but at home I wasn't allowed, so I had to do better stuff.

I don't presume to give advice from any other experience than my own on this one, but maybe it can help. I dunno. Incidenatlly, early in high school I chose to take independant studies, (for reasons other than getting worked up at school) and I really enjoyed it. I don't know if it's related to my elementary school issues, but in any case, I'm better at self teaching and learning I think. Of course I absolutely loved college. Okay, now I'm getting so far off topic I'm actually ashamed.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
I don't presume to give advice from any other experience than my own on this one, but maybe it can help.

LMB, sorry I hijacked your thread!

VM, that was actually my suggestion to Julia this morning. I told her that maybe coming home and chilling out with a PBS or Animal Planet show for a little while would make her feel better. Or if she just wanted some quiet time to play by herself, I would make sure to keep her little sister occupied for awhile. I was that same way too as a child, so I totally understand being just undone after a long day. Plus for the first time in her life she is having to navigate complicated social situations ("I'm afraid my best friend might like her other friends better than me!" and "The boy at my table ripped my picture but I didn't want to tell my teacher."). I'm exhausted just thinking about her day, so I really want home to be her haven. But I can't have her coming home every day and reducing her sister to tears over and over. I'm sure we'll work it out, though. Thanks for the suggestions!


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Fianna~ have you asked your dd what she thinks will help her chill out? Maybe she has some ideas too.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
Fianna~ have you asked your dd what she thinks will help her chill out? Maybe she has some ideas too.









Yes, last night as we lay in bed and talked I did ask her to think about what would help her to relax after a long school day. Of course her first suggestion was to get an ice cream cone after school everyday! Smart kid!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Oh, and I also told her that I would try REALLY hard not to pummel her with questions about her day as soon as I picked her up. As much as I am dying to hear about what happened as school, I don't want her to feel pressured to talk about it, so our new agreement is that she can talk about her day anytime she wants and I'll listen. Otherwise when we sit down for dinner or when we are lying in bed at night relaxing I can ask specific questions, but again if she doesn't want to talk about it, she can say so. I'll really try hard to honor this agreement, unless I see some weird changes in her behavior that make me think something has happened at school that she needs to tell me about.Then I may pry a bit more. This will really be a test of my will power!


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

This thread is great! I haven't read it all, but I like that there are some different perspectives presented. My dd is 23 months old, and has been just this week starteding to have several major tantrums in a day, and I am working on how to handle her in general and with the tanrums. I have my own anger issues to complicate things, but until today I held up pretty good. This thread's a keeper - I'm getting dh to print it off so I can go through it and highlight stuff.
Here's one touchy thing: temper tantrums when I say "no more milkies, mommy's sore" and take her off the breast. I really feel this is unfair to her, but as my milk all but dried up, I can't nurse her as much as she wants/needs, and I feel so bad about this. I hug and cuddle her, but I know what she really wants, and I think it may be seriously damaging that I am holding out on something so precious for her. Sorry if this is a hijack...


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Wow! What a thread! I think you have gotten some great ideas. I have just a few things to add:

On the hair issue, I agree w/Darshani that a shorter style is probably the way to go for now. My hair tangled easily when I was young, but I liked the way it looked long, and so did my father. I didn't resist having it combed out, but I was very sensitive about the discomfort and would make a big fuss, and it took a LONG time EVERY day. One morning, my mom was combing my hair, and I was wailing and carrying on, when suddenly she walked out of the room. A few minutes later (I'm sure she had paused to collect herself and not shriek at me!) she came back and set the Sears catalog in front of me, open to the little girls' section. She said firmly, "Find a picture of a girl who has hair NO LONGER THAN HER CHIN that looks the way you would like your hair to look. After preschool today, I am going to give you a new haircut." While I was at school, she called my dad at work so he wouldn't be devastated by the change. We took Before and After photos and saved my long hair in a special box.







While one could argue that my mom "forced" me to change my haircut, I didn't FEEL forced; I felt that I had been suddenly presented w/the exciting opportunity to choose a whole new look for myself! Maybe you can do something like this for Valentina.

On the food issue, I'd make sure there's always one food on the table that you know she will eat, and not stress over what or how much she eats. It will balance out. For ice cream, explain that she can have a small bowl now and another small bowl later, or a large bowl now and no more until tomorrow. (This will be more effective if you actually have different sizes of bowls, rather than putting different amounts in the same size bowl.) If you and her dad stick to the same rule yourselves, that will help a lot.

Keep a blank tape in the VCR. If she needs your attention while your show is on, hit Record and turn off the screen. Don't get mad at her for having feelings at inconvenient times--just watch the show later. Ah, technology!









Something that MIGHT help during tantrums is to supply lots of words that express what she's feeling: "You feel furious! You feel horrible! You are at the end of your rope!" Some kids really go for this--esp. if you learn some funny-sounding synonyms from a thesaurus







--and start using the words themselves, maybe even instead of screaming and kicking.








Good luck!


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

Fianna, would you consider your daughter an introvert? From what you are describing, she sounds like one. If that's the case, she probably really does need to just be left alone to recharge after school. It sounds like you are negotiating ways to do that with her already, which is great. I think you're right in resisting your urge to pelt her with questions about her day right when you pick her up. Personally, I'd consider giving her some space from her sister after she got home to be reasonable as well.

I'm a pretty strong introvert, and after hours of being in social situations I can get downright desperate for everyone to stop talking to me and go away. It sounds like you are doing a great job of recognizing and honoring her needs.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

OK, so, I was in the bathroom reading one of the many parenting books I have strewn around in there - :LOL yes, I do most of my parenting research in the bathroom







and happened to open the book (Playful Parenting) to the following page. I felt the guidance of some unseen cosmic hand, lol and thought you all might enjoy reading the following:

*ahem*

_What is the family's usual reaction or response to the tantrum?_ Most families have a habit of either caving in to tantrums or of never budging an inch, not wanting to reward what they see as negative behavior. Ironically, both of these responses generally lead to children having more tantrums instead of ending them.

In the first instance - that of caving in - the problem may not be the tantrum but our habit of saying no because it is more convenient. And when children start to whine and fuss, we suddenly find it more convenient to say yes. The lesson to the child here is that our no doesn't mean much, and the result is more tantrums, because she believes she can get her way. e firm and don't cave in if your no was well thought out and you still stand by it, and try not to say no if you aren't willing to stand by it just because of a tantrum.

On the other hand, tantrums may help us realize that we don't have a very good reason for saying no. But we may feel stuck; we don't want to give in to the tantrum. We need to be willing to change our minds if our no was unreasonable. Our children can tell the difference between caving in to their screaming versus reconsidering our position based on thinking about it some more. If we never budge once we've made a pronouncement, we aren't really being consistent. We're just refusing to consider points of view that differ from our own, refusing to acknowledge that we were wrong or hasty in our decision. Those are hardly the behaviors we want to model for our children.

*end*

Cool, eh? As to the "she took it from me" kind of tantrum, that I have no advice for. I SUCK at mediating toddler disputes. The one thing I have in my toolbox for these situations is telling them we'll take turns. I say, "It's Max's turn now, you can have a turn in a minute." Then in a minute I say "Ok Max, it's Cole's turn now." Usually the toy will be handed over with no resistance. For some reason toddlers take well to the idea of "turns". (It's important to tell the kid who is waiting that it will be their turn in a minute.) If the toy is not handed over, I will admit I *gently* pry it from the kid's hands and give it to the other one. This is probably not the best way to handle it but it works OK. I should add, I only use this method if distraction doesn't work first (i.e. finding another toy for one of the kids to play with.) I should also add I learned this method from a IRL friend who uses it with her 2 kids, I didn't think of it myself!


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

On the other hand, tantrums may help us realize that we don't have a very good reason for saying no. But we may feel stuck; we don't want to give in to the tantrum. We need to be willing to change our minds if our no was unreasonable. Our children can tell the difference between caving in to their screaming versus reconsidering our position based on thinking about it some more. If we never budge once we've made a pronouncement, we aren't really being consistent. We're just refusing to consider points of view that differ from our own, refusing to acknowledge that we were wrong or hasty in our decision. Those are hardly the behaviors we want to model for our children.

*end*

This is great! Exactly what I think, but so nicely put! Yay for bathroom breaks!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

famousmockngbrd, isn't that an awesome book?! Thanks for finding that quote.

Sylith, Julia is definitely an introvert, as am I. Actually Julia was diagnosed with selective mutism at age 3. She only talked to me, dh, and my mom for the first 3/5 yrs of her life. She started talking to my dad and sister, both of whom she sees weekly, at around her 4th birthday. So to say she is shy is a vast understatement. So going to school is a huge issue for her. But she loves it, thank goodness! Dh and I were actually letting her go on a "we'll see" basis, meaning if she reverted back to being a mute and was miserable for more than a week, we would seriously have considered pulling her out and homeschooling her. We are so proud of her for talking at school and making friends.
Thanks for the compliments!


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## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
***Here's how I would handle it if I were you or your DD were mine. I'd simply say, "You have two choices: You can go outside looking nice, or you can stay home. You choose." Then I'd let her choose.

To me that is not a choice at all. It is very thinly veiled punishment. I agree with (was is veganmamma) who said it is a choice between doing something and not, and losing love for it. A choice would be, why don't you choose what to wear out of these outfits (or, even better, just let them choose what to wear. Having you kid look "nice" is almost always all about the paren't need to appear a certain way to others, and very rarely about the kid.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
**The other thing I would say is offer her a choice. Either you allow me to brush your hair or you stay home. You choose.

Again, this is not a choice at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
**Either you pick up your things from the floor, or I will put them away at the top of the closet for one day. You choose.

Nope not a choice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
**Either you eat what is served to you or you will be hungry. You choose.

again, not a choice.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
*****The other thing you can do is offer her a choice of WHEN to do something. Do you want to pick up your toys first, or do you want to clear the table first? (Either choice should be acceptable to you). Do you want to lay out your clothes for tomorrow or go to bed?

These do seem to be real choices.

I think a kid can tell the difference.


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## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
famousmockngbrd, isn't that an awesome book?! Thanks for finding that quote.

OK, went to Amazon. There are two. which is it:

*Playful Parenting: Turning the Dilemma of Discipline into Fun and Games by Denise Chapman Weston, Mark S. Weston* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

or

*Playful Parenting by Lawrence J. Cohen*
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

It's the one by Lawrence J. Cohen. I haven't read the other one.


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## SaveTheWild (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:

It's the one by Lawrence J. Cohen. I haven't read the other one.
thanks


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Sure - BTW I totally agree with what you said about real choices vs. non-choices.


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
What's with the hair thing? Why do they need to wear it up?

Sincerely curious.

Really.

Truly.

Honestly.










UM, when they eat and get food in their hair and it sticks to their face and they try to get it off and they cry because it hurts....When it is hot out and they get sweaty and sticky and uncomfortable.......When their bangs are long and you want to keep it out of their eyes because it bugs the crap out of them, but if you come at them with scissors they totally go off the deepend and freak out.

That is what is with the hair thing. Honestly.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Ah bummer I don't have time to read everything right now and get caught up!

But I'd like to respond to some follow up questions the OP posed.

Punishment and/or bribes - don't use them here.

Tantrums - a few things. I have 3 children of various ages and we've been through it all. Including one child with breath-holding syndrome (very frightening...they become very upset and pass out and it is not something they can control) I am all for being as proactive as possible in regards to tantrums. I think it's best to try to avoid these situations. Usually this can be done by checking a few things and trying to stay as aware as possible. Hungry/thirsty, tired, overstimulated are the first things I try to think about. Are they overly frustrated? Having a difficult time communicating, etc? Have I been eating well, giving enough attention? Or have I been stressed and/or busy? Children are very good at absorbing their environment. When a tantrum occurs deal with it the best way possible. If the child does not want you to hug them or whatever then there are lots of other very good suggestions that have been offered up. I do think it's important to then take a look at what was going on before and around the tantrum though....hopefully then it may be possible to not repeat the same process.

One of my children had major tantrum problems due to allergies. She had horrible problems with food allergies and environmental allergies. It was also a situation where things would build. So maybe this tree blooming wouldn't be too terrible for her but that paired with the pollution count rising would send her over the edge.

I agree that it's very important to validate ones feelings. It's also very important to remember that we are all human and make mistakes. I think it's really important to let our children see this and for us to be willing to let them know that we made a mistake. Part of our wanting children to be responsible and take responsibility for their actions is that we want them to be able to say - I messed up. They learn to do this by watching others.

Modeling the behavior you wish from others is the best way to have them learn. If you do not want your child to eat junk...then don't be eating junk. If you do not think TV is a good idea then don't be watching it. It's as simple as that. I don't expect things from my children that I wouldn't do. Children learn from what they see...and it's what they see over and over again.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embens*
UM, when they eat and get food in their hair and it sticks to their face and they try to get it off and they cry because it hurts....When it is hot out and they get sweaty and sticky and uncomfortable.......When their bangs are long and you want to keep it out of their eyes because it bugs the crap out of them, but if you come at them with scissors they totally go off the deepend and freak out.

That is what is with the hair thing. Honestly.

Don't forget ParisMaman in also a mom. She even has a dd. Of course many folks here have osns with long hair, as would I if I had a son. My point is, obviously she hasn't had the experience you have with her own child. Possibly because she wiped her child's face before the hair stuck on, or her dd didn't get bothered by hot sweatiness or for whatever reason. I just think your post was kinda snarky to someone who also has a child but doesn't see why hair is made into an issue when it obviously wasn't in their household.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Yes, I have a dd with hair in her face all the time. And we live in a tropical climate--so pretty sweaty here. Her face; her hair. Whatever. Just a good excuse to stroke her beautiful face and tuck those stubborn stray clumps behind her ear









VM--that is the second time (that I noticed) in this thread that you mentioned you would not cut a son's hair. Now I am curious...could I ask why? Thank you!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

On that quotation about the ice cream. The full quotation was something like "Ice cream would taste so good to you right now, but..."

I agree that the but doesn't need to be there. Just want to give what the full sentence looked like.

Hair issue: can't the hair be put up in a loose ponytail? Like no combing it into a perfect one? I guess I'm thinking of certain people I've seen that literally spend at least 30 minutes making the perfect ponytail with 3000 barettes and all these frou-frou thingies.

And, yes, my dd has long hair that currently has honey and some other **** in it. And I sent her to Russian camp that way this morning.

*Embens* I am sorry if you took my "honestly" as insincere. It was sincere. You made some good points.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Because DP is still working on some sexism issues and it would drive him bloody insane! :LOL


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

you should give dd a buzz cut!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

HI I haven't read everything so forgive me if I repeat. I wanted to comment on the screaming until she gets what she wants. I have never allowed screaming and tantrums to flap my resolve. Seriously I do not care how loud my child is in the store. As a general rule people have been supportive and helped me get my stuffout to my car while I toted my screaming toddler. She wants something and she is entitled to want it. She is mad that she didn't get it and she entitlted to that. But what she is not entitled to is havingher every little whim fulfilled. We do not buy candy at the store unless it is on our list (an occaisionally it is) and no amount of screaming of cryidng is going to change that. Also for something where I might have answered yes or changed my mind in thepresence of a compelling reason the minute the argue, pout, whine or display rudeness my answer is a firmly rooted no. My children do not think I am a meanie. It has never crossed thier mind. I can take my children into a toy store to explore without having to worry about tantrums when we leave empoty handed because for the last 8 years I have never once given in. they don't bother anymore. They each recieve a few dollars and can spend it however they choose within reason (no ciggarettes or porn but everything else I am open to). it has really helped when the begging starts because all I need to say is "did you bring your money?" They know we ware on a tight budget and if I need a cop out for something my usual line is "we can't afford that" . Consistantly sticky with your first answer (whatever it was) will reduce the whining and tantrums. Same with threats. If you say "If you do xxx you will recieve yyyyyy" follow through. gaurd your tounge and don't say it unless you mean it. iT is fine to decide some battles aren't worth fighting but don't be tempted to engage unless you are willing to follow through. Pick one or two things, work onthem be consistant and once those are handled move on.

hair - we have a brush it or cut it policy. Also we use special tangle spray and lots of conditioner. It is the knots my children hate, not so much a time thing. My oldest chooses to keep hers very short. It kills me but it is her hair and her choice. My second chooses to keep her long and occaisionally needs to see the scissors come out before she decided it worth it to brush it. I for one will not allow y children to walk around looking neglected and unkept. I know it is a little hting but being tidy in appearance is a big deal to me because i was neglected as a child and I hated never looking like someone cared. So my children have to be neat when we go out. If they choose to have short hair that is thier business.

food - LET IT GO! My children are served meals. If they choose to eat them great. if they don't they may put them in the fridge. They are not allowed to eat after bedtime and if they leave iton the table it gets thrownin the garbage. Sometimes, often the don't eat super but they usually have a very good breakfast and luch and sometimes a snack. They are not ndernurished, under fed or underweight. I am not a short order cook and they do not live off of one or two foods. It all works out in the end.

everything else youjust have to decide if it is important and why. what behavior are your truely seeking to change. It is an outward annoying sort of thing or an inward attitude that needs a nudge in the right direction? Once you have established that then you can decide what to do about it. Never make any descision in the heat of the moment. it doesn't work. When you have aplan you can responmd calmly and matter of factly.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
Because DP is still working on some sexism issues and it would drive him bloody insane! :LOL










That's all? I thought I maybe something cultural or religious. But that is a good enough reason for me! :LOL


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Gosh, how did I miss this fantastic thread?! I"m only halfway through reading it, but have to get going, so wanted to just give my "props" to the wonderful ladies here in the GD forum!!!









Quote:

The best way to teach good eating habits is by modeling good eating behavior. When I realized my dd wanted to eat french fries, I stopped ordering them for myself. When I realized my dd wanted to eat ice cream for breakfast, I quit eating it for breakfast. When I realized she was wondering what the heck a soda was and why people were always drinking them, I stopped drinking them myself.










Quote:

The issue here is that you are dealing with the things that you have created. You have taught your daughter to do these things. It's not about GD, it's not about your daughters personality, it's about what you have taught her to do....GD is not about a child doing whatever he/she wants, whenever they want, and however they want. It's about loving your child enough to guide them in a gentle manner. It's about loving them enough to parent them.
I don't know where you came from, lady







(I'm guessing the diapering board?) but I have just LOVED reading your posts here. Excellent, excellent advice!









Quote:

one thing bugs me: letting them scream and not giving in to what they want is cio. HULLOOOOO...? aren't there other ways to reason with your child?
I can sympathize with and comfort my DD during a tantrum without giving her the thing she is tantruming over. So I don't think of it as mean or neglectful. I don't know how others treat screaming/crying but it's something that evokes sympathy and empathy from me. I know how hard it is to not get something we really want (don't we all, whether it's a promotion or an ice cream for breakfast?) and I try to be comforting to DD and validate her feelings. That's the "gentle" part. The "discipline" part is sticking to the decision that caused her to tantrum in the first place.

As said so well by so many others...

Quote:

are they crying because they are sad or frustrated or angry? Well, again, give them what they need - in this case, hugs, understanding, a soft shoulder. Don't give them the candy bar they are screaming for, but do give them sympathy for the feelings they are experiencing.

Quote:

I think a false dichotomy has been set up. The choices are not "Give in to screaming" or "Ignore screaming child completely." Responding to a tantrum does not have to mean giving the child the exact thing he or she wanted.

More words of wisdom:

Quote:

The problem is that you have gotten into an ADVERSARIAL relationship with your child...You try to threaten and control her and she tries to threaten and control you. No surprises there--modeling really works!...So STOP. Just stop. It takes TWO people to engage in a power struggle. If you step out of it, the struggle ends.
I so TOTALLY agree with this. I was a "strong willed child" and I can very well remember the feelings of power struggle that raged within me when my power was taken away from me in situations that were unfair, illogical, or unreasonable to me. It turned me into a child obsessed with independence until the day I moved out of the house. I swore I would not start that with my DD. I know she has it in her to be like I was as a child, but when you don't start the struggle and you are always consistent, there isn't one.

Quote:

The thing is, most kids who have a rich environment and aren't seeking to binge on TV, won't watch it all day--at least not for long.
I loved this part of your post b/c I struggle with the TV being on alot and worrying that this is bad for DD. But she is so active at home, so many things she plays with and works on while looking up from time to time at the show. And she never gets upset if we have to go out and she needs to turn the TV off...that reassures me that we haven't created an addict.









Quote:

So we worked with DS - when he wanted something we would put it on a list (yes, I carried it around with me and would actually write it down) Just this step alone helped termendously! I couldn't believe it - just validating his desire helped him remain calm about not getting the item.
This is so cool, graceoc...and I too have found, and it still surprises me, lol...that when I simply validate what DD wants things go so much better. So when she is whining that she wants to play on the computer and I have to say no because the computer is busy doing something DH-work related...instead of just saying "no" I mirror what she is asking for. I say "you want to play on the computer" and she nods, and then I say "we can't play on the computer right now" and explain why. amazingly, it really seems to help alot when she knows that at least she was heard and acknowledged.

Quote:

what do you think I should do when Valentina is screaming and crying and if I approach her, she will try kicking me? I would love to find a more gentle alternative than screaming back "please stop" and hugs will NOT WORK. I have tried comforting her DURING a tantrum, but it only makes it worse.
Talk gently to her and tell her that you are sorry she is so upset, that you are going to give her some room but you will be right there when she needs you, then stay close by but go about your business, keep an eye on her, and as soon as she is open to it, comfort her and talk about her FEELINGS. This has NOTHING to do with whatever it was she tantrumed about, and it will help her identify her feelings, understand them, process them, recognize them as valid (important for self-esteem), and then eventually you can help her find more appropriate ways to express those emotions (though I think most children just grow out of it as they become more sophisticated in their communication skills.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I guess I don't considerit CIO. Tantrums are something children in an effort to convince someone to give them what they want. Or they do it out of frustration which I understand and sypathize with, I occaisionally throw a tantrum out of frustration or they are just trying to embarrass you into getting them what they want (they learn fast - don't think that every tantrum is just an outpouring of unbridaled emotion. many are just an attempt to get the parent to give in. This is obvious when yoiu give in and the tantrum ends suddenly and everything is good again. ) An aware parent will be able to dissern why the child is craying/throwing a fit and be able to go from there. I handle those emotions the same way I handle all others that weren't brought on by trying to get what they want.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*

I don't know where you came from, lady







(I'm guessing the diapering board?) but I have just LOVED reading your posts here. Excellent, excellent advice!









OT -

Awww thanks







16+ years of parenting with Mothering Magazine helps a bit







But yah I started over at the Diapering Board when I was desperately seeking some new cds and then sortof wandered around since. It took me awhile to figure out how to do the sub thing. I would post on things and then totally forget about following up later! And I STILL forget to do it.

I really appreciate your saying this though. I enjoy reading your posts


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## beaner&tiegs (Aug 3, 2003)

Enjoying this post a lot, and it has definitely given me some food for thought in terms of issues around food. I try to respect my daughter as her own person, but find the one area I really have a hard time letting go of is food. I've really encouraged that she needs to eat healthy food to grow and stay healthy, and that she needs to eat all of her dinner before she can anything else, but now I'm going to start playing a bit with relaxing my need to control it all. Just the other day we were at a birthday party, and there was only enough cake for everyone to have one piece, so after her cake, she ate the second half of her veggie dog and some brocoli instead of candy that was laying around! And if she picks something after dinner, sometimes it's cucumber or plain yoghurt - I don't lay out options, but she could just as easily have said ice cream! She's always amazing me!

Haven't really dealt with tantrums, but definitely with frustrations and tears and I do find that just stating and validating the emotions/feelings works. As for siblings, Kea's not really a toddler anymore, but a few things that I find that works: In down times, explaining that Tiegan is a baby and doesn't understand how things work, so she needs to be patient while T. figures it out, and it's also up to her to teach her. We try the trading thing, I try to encourage Kea to be compassionate and giving, and I also say things like "I would never let someone do that to you either, I can't allow you to do that with her" (ie biting or hitting or yanking a toy out of her hand) and just sort of emphasising that Tiegan's a person too, with rights. The giving of a toy and then changing your mind is a tough one, because you don't want to discourage them from being that generous, yet you don't want them to feel they can just take it away. I think it's hard to be "fair" with siblings, and I guess after years of talking about empathy and taking turns, etc, you have to hope it'll sink in!

I have to admit that in my mind it is not okay to take something out of someone's hand, and yet I do occasionally force (ie "do you want to give it back or do you want mom to help you give it back") my kids to give things back (and talk about other ways of negotiating a turn). I have friends who try not to physically force things out of their kids hands, and as much as I understand where they're coming from, my kid has had things taken from her too many times, and then had to stand there really upset about it for 5-10 minutes while the other child was negotiated with, and rarely did the other child willingly give it back. And in the real world, you can't just go up to someone and take anything you want, and threats and punishment are used to get it back if need be(ie fines or police or whatever). If that makes any sense? So anyways, that's a line I use a lot around here: "it's not okay to take it out of so-and-so's hands. I know you want it right now, but you'll just have to wait until she/he's finished with it" How have others dealt with this scenario? Both with playdates, but also with siblings of fairly verbal stages?!


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## napless (Mar 20, 2003)

I will read this whole thread when I have a minute - but I just want to make a quick book recommendation. Have you read *How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk* ? I've found it hugely helpful with issues like those you describe - it guides my parenting every day.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

loving-my-babies said:


> and all the mamas for VERY gentle parenting, how do you handle tantrums? what do you think I should do when Valentina is screaming and crying and if I approach her, she will try kicking me? I would love to find a more gentle alternative than screaming back "please stop" and hugs will NOT WORK. I have tried comforting her DURING a tantrum, but it only makes it worse.
> 
> Ok, Here what I have always done is just stay near by (but not in kicking distance) pick up a book or do some busy work and say "I'll be right here when you want me to give you a hug or play with you" This sometimes elicited an immediate run over for a hug. More likely though there was just more tantruming. I remained calm and waited. I did not try to do much in the way of interacting, but I did not ignore either. If she walked over and hit me, I would move and say "you cannot hit me, even if you are mad at me"


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

i am learning so much, thanks everybody! ds is only 8 mo old, but our time is coming soon enough....

3 questions:

- how do you deal w/ tantrums in public? i can feel a lot of what y'all are saying, but i think this will be one of my biggest challenges. i mean, isn't it reasonable that there are somethings we just don't do in public, like run around naked and throw crazy tantrums? maybe that's not reasonable. i don't know, do any of you have different strategies depending on if you're in public or at home?

- i'm guessing most but not all of you are at-home moms. for those of you who are not, how do you work this out w/ the other caregivers?

- what is TCS?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Public Tantrums are not fun, but must be endured by every parent at some time. If you are in a mall or some other very public place you have to remeber that it is just that-- a PUBLIC place and members of the public have to sometimes put up with hearing tantruming child. So just pick your kid up, do whatever absolutely has to get done and then just call it a day. You don't have to be angry with your dc, though you'd be almost superhuman if a little irritation doesn't show.

If public tantrums rarely result in getting what the tantruming child wants, they really do not (for the vast majority of kids) occur very often. For most kids its a sign they are really exhausted and need to be at home. If you "give in" to the tantrum a child would really be kind of stupid not to keep this behavior up, so its reallly your fault if you do so.

As for TCS, it means "Taking Children Seriously". I am sooo not the one to speak about it. I am sure those who feel its right for their families can direct you to some good info though.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

OK, first I would like to say that I do not believe that not practicing TCS=Not using gentle discipline. Also, I disagree with the notion that bc people are not TCS, that this board is heading in a different direction. FOr a long time, TCS was not even allowed to be discussed here.

Now, on to LMB







: First thing that I would recommend is to rule out sensory issues. Children with sensory integration dysfunction can hae really extreme behavior like that. Onlny wanting certain oods(due to texture) not wanting their hair brushed, not wanting diferent clotehs on, etc. Read the OUt of Sync CHild and do the quizzes to see if that is what you are dealing. A qualified occupational therapist can be a godsend if that is the case.

I have a VERY spirited three yo boy. He just turned three in JUne. He has a lot of very curly long hair. Using No More Tangles has helped a lot. For a while, I would sng him a little song while I brushed his hair. I would sing "I love my little boonchy bear, yes I do! I love my little boonchy bear, how about you? I love my little boonchy near all day long! I love my little boonchy bear so Im singing this song!" and it would go on and on with rhyming words at the end of each sentece. he would sit quietlyad listen while I brushed and brushed. Then I started telling him stories about the No More TAngles and the hair brush and their exciting adventures trying to escape the bathroom to go and see the wide wide world (THE KITCHEN!!). With these too, he would sit and sit. Can you braid her hair at night? My mom used to do that with me at night, and I would wake up tangle free.

I have not dealt with tantrums, but my ds has been hitting kicking and pinching. I thin they stem from the same place as tantrums. I talked to is OT about it, and she suggested that wen he is lashing out, saying, "Oh, I see you need to use your muscles! Lets figure out how you can" and then give some paly doh, or do a wheel barrow walk, or even have him push the wall. Just tell her, I need this room to be bigger, can you help me push this wall out? I would also really recommend that she get alot of heavy work throughout the day. Playdoh, jumping on a trampoline, hanging on the bars, etc. Make a crash pad-take two larg flat sheets and sew or pin them together. FIll te inside with foam pieces, like the leftovers from an upholstery shop. WHen she is getting upset, have her go jump on it, and tell her she can jump her angries out on it. The other night, my two boys were strating to really fight I took hem on a walk around the block. One boy rode his scooter, another rode his bike and the other rode his trike. They were so engaged with their work, that they didnt argue anymore
Also, with my guy I have found that structure and limits are wonderful. We were having a lot of food issues. My rule is that we eat three times a day and have three snacks in between. If he doesnt like what we are eating, he may have bread and butter or a bowl of cereal. If he doesnt eat, he may get down, but that will be the last food until the next meal or snack. We have just really implemented that his past week, but he is eating much much better already. And when he eats better, he is nicer. Also, I have fine tuned bedtime down to a science. If we stick to it, he goes to bed at the same time every night, and that really helps his temperment.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
i am learning so much, thanks everybody! ds is only 8 mo old, but our time is coming soon enough....

3 questions:

- how do you deal w/ tantrums in public? i can feel a lot of what y'all are saying, but i think this will be one of my biggest challenges. i mean, isn't it reasonable that there are somethings we just don't do in public, like run around naked and throw crazy tantrums? maybe that's not reasonable. i don't know, do any of you have different strategies depending on if you're in public or at home?

I don't feel that it's fair of me to inflict my child's screaming on other people. Thankfully, it's been a loooonnng time since she's had a tantrum in public, though. However, that said, I've picked up and left full carts of groceries we really needed and simply exited the store. (Sorry to the clerks who had to put it all back...








: ) I've left restaurants where I was having a pleasant dinner with my family and have sat out in a car with her until the tantrum was over, or I've gone home. I basically do a 180 when that happens and *leave.*


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fianna*
Now, if anyone has any great suggestions for the most appropriate way to deal with a 5-yr-old who has just started kindergarten and who comes home after a long day and has had so much stimulation that she is hyper, argumentative, and prone to strong mood swings? This is a brand new area for us and I want to handle it the best way I can. I wasn't very good about it yesterday and had to do some apologizing for my short temper. I asked her to come up with some ideas to help her decompress in the afternoons and we will write some of them down this afternoon when I pick her up from school. But if anyone has BTDT and has some great suggestions, I'm all ears!

Well, I don't know how strong your back is or how light your child is, but what works for us (and my 32-lb 3.5 yo) is carrying her around for awhile in the Maya Wrap. I think because it's an "ancient" feeling for her (she was slung from the moment she was born) and because it hugs her all over, it allows her to decompress when she's fussy, overtired, and cranky.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaveTheWild*
To me that is not a choice at all. It is very thinly veiled punishment. I agree with (was is veganmamma) who said it is a choice between doing something and not, and losing love for it. A choice would be, why don't you choose what to wear out of these outfits (or, even better, just let them choose what to wear. Having you kid look "nice" is almost always all about the paren't need to appear a certain way to others, and very rarely about the kid.

Allow me to point out, though, that there are certain events (weddings, funerals, etc.) where looking a particular way shows respect and consideration to other people and goes beyond the desire of the child to wear what they choose. There are certain situations where wearing something is crucial (e.g., shoes).

Not every situation will necessitate an approach like this; in fact, I think that this would be a response you'd use on rare occasions only. Allow me to point out that the OP was having frequent problems with establishing reasonable limits and sometimes a hardline approach is necessary.

Moreover, as I pointed out (although for some odd reason, you chose not to quote this), the choice IS a genuine one. I honestly have no idea what you mean by losing love for the choice. The choice is left up to the child.

Quote:

Again, this is not a choice at all.
***See what I said above. Most of the time, it's not a big deal. However, there are certain times (such as the ones I listed above) when it is and you need to have some kind of response that does not involve shouting, demeaning, or time-out (which is useless for our DD).

Quote:

Nope not a choice.

Again, allow me to point out that it is definitely a choice. Toys on the floor are a safety issue, particularly in the middle of the night. Having almost broken my leg tripping over my dd's castle (and having had my dd almost do the same thing), this is not a frivolous issue. Toys on the floor during the day are fine and not a problem; toys at night are.

In presenting her with this choice, I leave the responsibility of putting the toys away into her hands or mine -- as it should be. Teaching a child to put away his or her toys is part and parcel of teaching them to be responsible as adults with their belongings. Otherwise, I strongly believe you teach them that mommy will pick up everything and take care of everything.

Unfortunately, as a teacher I've seen kids with this essential attitude -- that if they forget their notebook/lose their book / don't study / don't come equipped, it's everyone *else's* fault. (I teach high school, FWIW.) I admit that this has given me a particularly short fuse for tolerating this behavior and since other people's experiences may have been different, perhaps their tolerance is greater. Moreover, maybe their standards are different. However, it is inaccurate to say that it is not a choice.

Quote:

again, not a choice.
I don't know if you think I bluff. I don't. It is a choice. It's a choice because it's a choice for everyone -- if I do not eat *my* dinner, I will go to bed hungry.

That said, I don't serve my dd things I know she doesn't like. If we're eating something not to her taste, I make sure she has items available that *will* be, or prepare a separate portion with the objectionable element removed. Moreover, I don't harp on making her clean her plate or eat a certain amount. When I was a kid, my mother knew I hated shrimp Creole (those damned shrimp looked like worms in blood sauce to me and STILL do) and she'd make me eat it every time uke . I wasn't allowed to do any of the following:

1. Not eat it
2. Not eat
3. Eat only the rice or side dishes
4. Eat something else made by her
5. Eat something else made by me.

To me, when you offer only one option, that is truly not a choice, but again, perhaps we differ on our mutual understanding of the word "choice." I don't believe that a person need enjoy all of the options equally for it to be a "choice." It might be a choice between Scylla and Charibdis, but it is a choice.

I am strongly against turning a parent into a short-order cook, but I also admit my fuse is short on this point. I've dealt with many children who used food as a control issue and their parents kowtowed to their every whim.

As a side note, we've seen extreme versions of these parents on "Oprah" during sweeps week -- they're the kind with the three-year-old who eats two Big Macs with supersized fries and a milkshake for every meal and now suffers the same heart and cholesterol problems as a sixty-year-old. Quite often, their "defense" to the horrified audience will be things like, "But s/he won't eaaaaat anything eeellllllllllllllse!"

By no means do I think any parent, including mine, should pull what I think of as the shrimp Creole maneuver. I think they should serve healthy, appealing meals to their child, but at that point, I think their job is done. Otherwise, I think many parents fall into the trap of being a short-order cook -- and however much you might respect your child, generally speaking, they cannot be relied on as well as parents to develop a sound nutritional food plan.

Let me reiterate one more time, however, that if they decide not to eat the healthy, appealing food you've placed in front of them, it IS a choice. They might not like all the alternatives, but again, it does not prevent it from being a choice.

Thank you for allowing me to respectfully disagree with your assessment.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
Let me reiterate one more time, however, that if they decide not to eat the healthy, appealing food you've placed in front of them, it IS a choice. They might not like all the alternatives, but again, it does not prevent it from being a choice.

Why can't they eat something else? Yogurt, for example, or a handful of nuts, a piece of fruit - something that they can get for themselves that is still healthy but doesn't mean mom or dad getting up?

The way I see it, I get to choose what I want for dinner (because I do the cooking)... maybe ds doesn't feel like having that. Let's face it - there are times when we all just don't want to eat a particular thing. That's part of the reason why we choose to make for dinner the things that we do, instead of something else. Even things that I *know* ds likes very much, he'll sometimes not want to eat when he says he's hungry and I suggest it. You are assuming that what you've made is appealing to them (because they like to eat it sometimes), but it may not be appealing to them that night. I don't think it's really fair for me to assume that because my son usually likes a food that he'll want to eat it whenever I make it. I mean, I love pizza, but sometimes I don't always want to eat it.

If he wants something else and it doesn't require more work for me and is still reasonably healthy (probably more healthy than him just eating the rice out of whatever I've cooked), why should I say no or make him go hungry? That's me controlling him - telling him that he doesn't have the right to his preferences, even when it's no skin off my teeth to honor those preferences. To force him to make a choice between either eating what he doesn't want to eat or not eating at all may be a "choice" in the most literal sense of the word, but it's not what most people would consider a legitimate choice. It's a lose-lose situation. You may as well not give the choice at all.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

clothcrazymom- just wanted to say.. I know why you are so wise! you could be my mom! :LOL I was born in '84! and my little sister was born in '88 just like your oldest!








's

thanks everyone for your advice! things have definetely changed in my house, we're all about healthy snacks now, although dd is allowed popcycles after her meal about once a day and I don't really have a problem with that. right now she is finger painting (we went to TRU yesterday and bought her a lot of paints, crayons and new stuff so she would feel motivated to keep the TV off) and it's worked ok. she still asks for TV and I do put it on when she asks. I have a feeling she is used to having it on in the background, and my question to you all is, what can really happen if TV is on "in the background" while she is playing? I am used to it too, I must say and even enjoy the noise. what do you guys feel about this? how about the mamas that said that I should let her watch TV as much as she wants? do you believe there is no harm in watching too much TV? thanks again for your responses, you guys are the best!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

CB, thanks for the slinging idea. I'd love to do that with Julia as she lived in her sling as an infant/toddler, but now she is about 42 lbs and it just isn't comfortable for me (I'm only 5'2" and she is very tall for her age, so again it just doesn't work well). Plus my 2-yr-old would freak! She things the sling is HERS and hers alone!!!!









I thought of this thread yesterday as I ate lunch with my parents, sister, her 6-yr-old and her 12-yr-old. The 6-yr-old is a challenge to feed. He would eat fruit and peanut butter (not the good kind unfortunately but the sugar-laden junk that is served as school







: ) Yesterday I watched as my mom and dad tried to force him to eat meat and potatoes. First they commented to my sister about how they don't know how she deals with him, how he would make them crazy were he their child. Then they tried to threaten him, telling him he won't get X if he doesn't eat Y. My dad can have a very menacing tone, which is quite unpleasant. I remember how scared I was of it when I was that age. So basically the entire meal we had to listen to my nephew be cajoled, prodded, discussed and threatened about eating. Only once did my sister try to make them stop, trying to point out that making food a control issue isn't the way "they" say it should be done.

I almost launched into a soap box moment about food/kids, but decided I just didn't have the energy. I did intervene once just to get my mom to be quiet by mentioning how much easier it is just to not have junk around and let a kid choose something else to eat if the meal isn't what they want.

The whole ugly scene did make me realize once again where my authoritarian tendencies (ie control freak tendencies!) come from. And it strengthened my resolve about not getting caught up in food battles.

My 2-yr-old had cereal, brown rice, broccoli and vanilla ice cream for breakfast!







And I had the ultimate test when Julia chose not to eat anything this morning before heading off to school. Like me, she hates to eat right after she gets up. I offered several choices which she declined. She said she would eat at lunch (which is early) so I bit my tongue, gave her a water bottle and a snack in her bookbag, and sent her to school. I didn't nag because I've seen my mom do it enough to know just how freaking annoying that truly is.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't have an answer for your question about TV, LMB (we struggle with it, too, here). But have you thought about radio in the background? Maybe some favorite music? The thing I worry about with TV is that the images and noise are still affecting the brain, impacting the type of play.

I'd like to hear what others have to say.

So glad to hear things are better!


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Fianna- Yay for you! doesn't it feel great to know you're improving? I feel the same way!







's


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

dragonfly- I fear the same thing about TV.. can't wait to read what others have to say!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I have a feeling she is used to having it on in the background, and my question to you all is, what can really happen if TV is on "in the background" while she is playing? I am used to it too, I must say and even enjoy the noise. what do you guys feel about this? how about the mamas that said that I should let her watch TV as much as she wants? do you believe there is no harm in watching too much TV? thanks again for your responses, you guys are the best!

LMB, congrats on making some great changes so quickly!

I'm one of those who quickly gets used to background noise as well. One of the things my girls really enjoy is for music to be playing in the background. I put on a Kindermusik CD or a Mozart CD playing softly and they really enjoy that. It was a great way to wean from the tv background noise situation. I often put a CD on when I'm working on the computer now, whereas before I would quite often have a news channel on the tv.


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## clothcrazymom (Sep 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
clothcrazymom- just wanted to say.. I know why you are so wise! you could be my mom! :LOL I was born in '84! and my little sister was born in '88 just like your oldest!








's

thanks everyone for your advice! things have definetely changed in my house, we're all about healthy snacks now, although dd is allowed popcycles after her meal about once a day and I don't really have a problem with that. right now she is finger painting (we went to TRU yesterday and bought her a lot of paints, crayons and new stuff so she would feel motivated to keep the TV off) and it's worked ok. she still asks for TV and I do put it on when she asks. I have a feeling she is used to having it on in the background, and my question to you all is, what can really happen if TV is on "in the background" while she is playing? I am used to it too, I must say and even enjoy the noise. what do you guys feel about this? how about the mamas that said that I should let her watch TV as much as she wants? do you believe there is no harm in watching too much TV? thanks again for your responses, you guys are the best!

Yikes! Ok I'm feeling OLLLLLLLLLLLLLD today! y/k

Ah the whole TV conversation....well I think that opens a whole other discussion really. There are some excellent books out there "The Plug In Drug" is one (hope I got that right - it's been a long time since I've read all that stuff) and there are others out there if you do a search. I think it's a good idea to read the different things for yourself and come to your own conclusion about what works for you and your family.

I'm not one for tv for young children. But then I also think it's crazy to think that if your family is a big pro-tv family that you can have the young ones excluded from this. Again...it's a situation of modeling the behaviors. I think there are some really valid reasons for getting rid of the tv all together (we happen to have tv though) and it's not just a matter of content.

So rather than get into a big thing about it. I think it's best to go investigate and gather the information for yourself and figure out what you want to do about it.

As far as other things....hmm maybe we should start posting ideas for young children? Where would it be best to do that?


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## beaner&tiegs (Aug 3, 2003)

T.V.: We actually got rid of our TV (well, it was really old, was slowly dying and finally we couldn't turn it on at all. Decided that we couldn't really afford a new one right now, plus it's summer so we'd get one in the fall. Have spent 3 months without it, and LOVE it, so will probably not get a new one!) and life honestly is so much more pleasant! Before that, we had it out of the way, and a lot of the time it really worked like an out of sight out of mind tool. I do think you need to do a weaning process if you don't want it on all the time, it is quite addictive. We play lots of music. I try really hard to say yes whenever she asks me to read a book to her. We have an arts and crafts table, a big box of dress up clothes, a train set, a basket full of blocks, and a bunch of dolls that she'll happily play with for hours. Sometimes we'll set up our tent in the living room for a change. She asks to have the couch pulled forward so she can play behind it, and uses it as her cave. We built a little kitchen for her into our kitchen and she plays there lots. We bake together. She has elaborate tea parties on the front porch with water. I've gotten books on tape for her to have down time alone. She's hung out on the couch, singing her own songs and just staring at the ceiling - I really think boredom is incredible for kids, and that learning to deal with it is quickly becoming a lost art for this generation!

For public tantrums, learn the signs of your child losing it, and try to leave first. Try to avoid by keeping lots of snacks handy and avoiding cranky times to shop, etc. If it still happens, I would ignore everyone else and deal with your child. I have to deal with obnoxious adults in public all the time, I'm sure noone will suffer because they see a tantrum. And it's more important to deal with your child and his/her feelings than to worry about others, IMHO. Having said that, I think a lot can be avoid by being consistant and avoiding certain trigger situations.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Re: Public tantrums.

Thankfully, we've rarely had to deal with this. I learned very early on that if my child tantrums in public, she has been pushed way beyond her limits of either sleepiness or boredom. But if she did tantrum in public, I would treat it the same way as I do at home, however I would remove her to a quieter place to be less disturbing to others, and so I can focus on her and not what everybody else is thinking. But as someone else said, it really is part of life and I think every parent has been through it at least once.

Tantruming to get what you want (goes back to Lilyka's post): I decided to go into parenting expecting the best from my children. I do not believe that kids tantrum to get what they want UNLESS somebody showed them once that it worked. This is why I think parents need to be very consistent about not giving in to the demand, while still feeling free to comfort the child and embrace their emotions. Kids make connections instantly (that's what they are programmed to do), so I don't think it takes more than one or two occasions for them to put it together that tantrum=getting what you want. But again, I don't think that is an inherent goal of the child, I think they get taught that. So, I do think it happens, probably alot, I just consider it a learned behaviour.

Who had the 5 year old who comes home overexcited, etc? I read a book that talked about how all of us have different outward persona's when we are in the comforts of home versus around non-family members, and that it was not at all unusual for a child to be rated "well behaved" at school, but a terror at home. It has to do with the child feeling safe enough to release emotions. Anyways, I think it was Anthony Wolf's book "The Secret of Parenting".

LMB: glad to hear things are improving. you made me feel old, too. I was in grade 11 in 1984, lol.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Why can't they eat something else? Yogurt, for example, or a handful of nuts, a piece of fruit - something that they can get for themselves that is still healthy but doesn't mean mom or dad getting up?

That's a very reasonable compromise -- not only because it involves no extra work for a parent, but also because it places responsibility on the child and takes the "fun" out of complaining about dinner *if* it is a control issue.

I respectfully disagree with the idea that we shouldn't see the OP's child's actions as a control issue. If it were strictly a "food" issue, like what you discussed in your post (e.g., you just don't feel like it), then I don't see a problem with getting alternative food oneself.

The big objection I had was in yanking a parent's strings with irresolvable and continual complaints until they become their kid's personal chef, KWIM?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I don't have an answer for your question about TV, LMB (we struggle with it, too, here). But have you thought about radio in the background? Maybe some favorite music? The thing I worry about with TV is that the images and noise are still affecting the brain, impacting the type of play.

I'd like to hear what others have to say.

So glad to hear things are better!









Me too. Rats, DF said what I was going to say.

Well, I agree!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I was thinking about the choice issue that Savethewild and CB were addressing, and I have something I'd like to add. While I think parents can overdo it as far as offering "unbalanced" choices, I don't think that this tactic is always wrongheaded. As CB pointed out, it *is* a choice, and perhaps a realistic one. As adults, we face these kind of choices daily, although we tend not to think of them as such because we have already made them once and for all, in a way.

Example: If I have a job upon which I rely for income, I have several choices:
1) Show up for work consistantly, and do the job I agreed to do to the boss's or client's satisfaction.
2) Show up for work only when I feel like it, and do only the tasks I feel like doing.
3) Quit in a huff the moment I get ticked off about something.
4) Quit after securing alternative income or deciding to take a certain opportunity.

Are choices 2 and 3 "real" choices? Sure. Lots of people make them every day and find themselves in problematic circumstances as a result. Most adults do not choose those courses of action -- indeed we don't even seriously consider them -- because we have the ability to think long term and estimate what the eventual outcome of our choices will be. Kids (especially little ones) don't have that ability, so they can't always be trusted to make "real" decisions about their lives. Sometimes parents have to "stage" an unbalanced choice because the consequences of the "real" choice are beyond the child's comprehension. (Being late for an appointment would be an example of this, or needing to dress appropriately for a wedding.) A consciencious parent will guide her children into more and more "real" choices as they grow, allowing the children to experience the consequences (from life if possible, from parents if not) in order to help them gradually learn to make smart choices in the adult world. (Where the consequences can often be life-altering.)

Again, it can be overdone -- issues such as everyday hair styling and clothing, what book to read first, whether or not to participate in storytime, etc. These are all areas where children *can* make the "real" decisions without dangerous or overly negative consequences, and they should. These are the first steps along the road to responsible and smart adulthood.


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## beaner&tiegs (Aug 3, 2003)

Some interesting thoughts on the whole issue of choices.... the other example that pops into my mind is the issue around teeth brushing - by not brushing your teeth you could have long-term impacts that I don't think a 3 year old is capable of understanding when he/she decides not to brush their teeth ever. HOwever, in my mind there are gentler ways of dealing with this, giving them at least some control. In our house, Kea HAS to brush her teeth at least once a day. We try to make it just something we all do while we're getting ready for bed so it's not a big struggle, but some days she decides she doesn't want to brush her teeth. She can chose which toothbrush she wants, she can insist on doing it herself (though every few days I try to get a good brushing in myself), and we have lots of discussions about her friends who've had major dental work already, and about sugar foods and how it's important to brush if we want to enjoy sugar, etc. Ultimately, though, there is no choice about whether or not she's going to brush her teeth, until she's old enough to interact with the dentist herself and make decisions factoring in everything. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it - I find in the younger years, I do control a lot more, and then as she gets older, I let go and let her explore.

One example, we used to hold hands crossing all busy streets. THen she decided she was a big girl (at about 3), and really didn't want to hold hands. I explained what I was worried about, she suggested that she could just make sure she stayed beside me, and we agreed that that would work. I think as they get older (3 and up) you can start to reason and negotiate more, and let go of some of your control. SHe told J. that she really wanted to go into the woman's bathroom by herself, he felt uncomfortable, but she pointed out that she's "going to be a woman one day so it's important for her to practice" and he accessed the situation and decided she was right, and this was a great place to do it. So in she went by herself. I think it's so much more about being respectful of each other, but also aware of the capabilities of certain ages. The tricky part is when to let go and when to hang on!!!


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I wanted to say somethign about the logn hair....I braid dd's hair before bed at night, and voila...no tangles in the AM


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

: Excellent thread.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

...reading...


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

OK, mommas, you have given me renewed inspiration with my kids. I am lucky. My kids are fairly easy going. But I have mood swings, and they do have their "spirited" moments, and everyone needs renewal to do better.

LMB, it may have been said already, but I'll repeat it:

* Age 3-4 is challenging. I don't know who decided the twos were "terrible". Just knowing this is a universal developmental phase helped me deal with my kids.

* My therapist said many times mothers struggle more with daughters. Especially first daughters. Everything is personal. Well, armed with that information you can _try_ at least to step back and not take stuff personally.

* If, after you have done all these excellent things to bring about peace in your home, and dd is still tantruming, then call the ped and have her evaluated. Maybe there's something causing this that is beyond her control.

*







Keep the unconditional love coming!


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

I've only read the first two pages of this very long thread, but already I have run up against a number of things that have made me have to bite my tongue. Let it be known that I am not a GDer. I have had 21 children in my house at various times (foster and adopted kids) and I have not used GD. Nonetheless, I think I have been a very sucessful parent with happy and well-behaved children.

So here's something I absolutely must comment on:

"When children have food limits placed on them, they respond by eating whatever they want when they are old enough or like me, with an eating disorder."

That is so completely *NOT TRUE!* You are stating that like it is a fact that happens every time, and that's just not true. I don't think it even happens most of the time, or most of us would have eating disorders. I was raised in a family in which you ate eveything on your plate when it was served to you. When we had cauliflower (which I despise), I was given one tiny piece and expected to eat it. I did. It didn't kill me. It didn't create an eating disorder, and it didn't cause me to grow up to be a human food processor, shoving any junky old thing in my mouth. (And I was not allowed to eat candy as a child, either ... ice cream was a few-times-a-year treat. Other than that, it was home-grown vegetables, homemade breads and pastas, and home-raised meat ... nothing else.) I was raised to respect the value of food and the value of the work that went into creating it. I was raised with the idea that food nourishes our bodies and souls and that we eat in a way that accomplishes this. I was raised with the idea that food is a blessing and (for many) a luxury and that it is eaten gratefully and never wasted. I grew up to have very good eating habits and no weight problems. I have a great relationship with food.

I don't force my kids to eat if they don't want to, but they know that I will not humor their food whims. All of my children eat well and have healthy eating habits. We adopted a child from a country in which thousands of people are literally starving to death every single day. For that reason, if for no other, I would never allow my children to be frivolous with food. Part of the reason other countries can't feed their people is because of the way Americans eat. That's a whole other issue, and I won't go off on that tangent now, but I raise my kids to regard food as a tool for properly nourishing their bodies and a blessing not to be squandered.

If your daughter doesn't want to eat, you don't have to force her. Just take her plate away. But I would never cook a separate meal for a child (except in cases of allergy or illness).

Wilma


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
I was thinking about the choice issue that Savethewild and CB were addressing, and I have something I'd like to add. While I think parents can overdo it as far as offering "unbalanced" choices, I don't think that this tactic is always wrongheaded. As CB pointed out, it *is* a choice, and perhaps a realistic one. As adults, we face these kind of choices daily, although we tend not to think of them as such because we have already made them once and for all, in a way.

Example: If I have a job upon which I rely for income, I have several choices:
1) Show up for work consistantly, and do the job I agreed to do to the boss's or client's satisfaction.
2) Show up for work only when I feel like it, and do only the tasks I feel like doing.
3) Quit in a huff the moment I get ticked off about something.
4) Quit after securing alternative income or deciding to take a certain opportunity.

Are choices 2 and 3 "real" choices? Sure. Lots of people make them every day and find themselves in problematic circumstances as a result. Most adults do not choose those courses of action -- indeed we don't even seriously consider them -- because we have the ability to think long term and estimate what the eventual outcome of our choices will be. Kids (especially little ones) don't have that ability, so they can't always be trusted to make "real" decisions about their lives.

***Sure. This happens all the time. I teach high school and I have students who come in unprepared or only when they feel like it, and get Fs.

Surprisingly -- or maybe not, given the context of this conversation -- many of them decide to place blame for this F everywhere but where it belongs. It's MY fault for being one of those mean-shrew F-givin' teachers. It's their parents' fault for not waking them up in the morning. Yadda. Yadda. Sigh.

I stress from day 1 that the responsibility (AND the blame, if necessary) for the grade is *theirs.*

Some of them get it and understand that the grade was a result of a series of choices they made. What many of them simply do not seem to comprehend in the slightest is that almost all the time, if they fail, *they chose to fail.*

They think it _wasn't_ a choice because they didn't like all of the choice options.

In a nutshell, that's why I get my panties in a big, red knot over this choice thing.

Thanks -- I'll step off the soapbox now...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

CB: people like that get MY panties in a wad, too! I absolutely cannot stand people who blame everybody else in the world for their failures.

While I have not taught high school, I seem to have made a brief career in my twenties of dating men just like that. If they got fired, it wasn't their fault. If the collection agencies were after them, it wasn't their fault. Blah, blah, blah!

AND...this raises a good point about the tactic of involving your children in problem solving. Say your kid is constantly leaving their toys lying around and you are tired of tripping over them. So sit down with your kid and say "we have a problem". Then work with the child to figure out some solutions, taking all her suggestions as seriously as your own, writing them down, then the two of you go over them one-by-one and rule out why that would or would not be a possibility. Settle on a plan of action, and sign the agreement of the plan.

I think this tactic, which I've read about in numerous GD books, is an excellent way to start teaching children at a young age that THEY are responsible for their problems. I wonder if some of those kids who blame everybody else are lacking, deep down inside, the confidence in themselves to believe they CAN solve their problems?

Bunnysmama: I appreciate what you are saying. But eating disorders DO seem to be epidemic in this country...perhaps that is why many of us are sensitive about using food as a control issue, or making an issue out of it to any extreme?

My take on the food issue: as an adult, I refuse to eat stuff that makes me gag, and I have vivid memories of being forced to do so as a child in the name of "waste not, want not" (my mother experience starvation as a child, so was very sensitive to this issue). I will never force my DD to eat or finish her plate, recalling so well what a horrible experience it was to be literally gagging food down, and to be forced to stay at the table long after everybody else had up and left it.

My DH makes dinner most nights, and is considerate enough not to serve me things he knows I don't like. If DH decides he has a craving for stir-fried turkey giblets, he'll make it for himself, and make me something more palatable. Thus, I do the same with my DD if I'm craving a dinner I know she won't eat, I'll make her something she does eat. If she doesn't want to eat her dinner, that's okay it goes into the fridge for leftovers. And she is free to eat basically whatever she asks for (yogurt, peanut-butter toast) etc. so long as it's not cookies/desert (which we rarely have in the house anyways).


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

question about the food thing ...

i hear what Bunnymama is saying. my mom was always forced to "clean her plate" as a child, and it totally gave her ugly issues w/ food. so she took a much more reasonable approach w/ her own kids. the rule was, we had to try 2 bites. if after 2 bites we still didn't want it, ok fine. she wouldn't make anything else. but she wouldn't argue about it or make it a power struggle. we probably did fight about it a couple times, but 2 bites isn't all that much to ask. i seem to remember being ok w/ it. (she might remember differently!)

anywya, i think this worked well for my sister and me. we are both very adventurous eaters and love to cook and eat. we both have a much better relationship w/ food than my mom does. i continue to use the 2-bite rule w/ any new food or dish i encounter (unless it obviously looks rotten or undercooked or something like that). i really like the fact that i am willing to try new things. i have a big pet peeve w/ adults who turn up their noses at a food just b/c it's unfamiliar.

but, every kid is different. so, i'm curious if any of you disagree w/ this approach?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I disagree with that approach. I think the job of the parent is to make sure people are fed, not to just make meals. If your goal is to actually feed people, then this is not an issue. You find something to feed them. If your goal is to make meals and too bad if people don't like them, then I think you will have different approaches. But, I also think you will have a different relationship with the people in your care. And not a better one.

What if you know you don't like something by the smell? Or after the first bite? Who cares? Lots of people don't like certain things. I would never order a guest in my house to take two bites of something I'd prepared. I would take them at their word that that was something unpalatable to them and offer something else. It just seems like common courtesy to me.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

so she took a much more reasonable approach w/ her own kids. the rule was, we had to try 2 bites. if after 2 bites we still didn't want it, ok fine. she wouldn't make anything else. but she wouldn't argue about it or make it a power struggle. we probably did fight about it a couple times, but 2 bites isn't all that much to ask. i seem to remember being ok w/ it. (she might remember differently!)








We have a similar "one-bite" rule which our 4yo complies with easily. (The 2 y.o. isn't quite there yet, but that's OK -- he's only 2!) She now likes several dishes that she used to turn her nose up at. She reluctantly ate her 1 bite a few times, then ate 3 or 4 bites the next couple of times, then took a small portion, then asked for seconds...







It's a great process to see, and I know that it will serve her well in the future. Whenever I serve a new dish, or one that I know the kids don't care for, I make sure there are plenty of other items on the table that they *do* like so they can fill up. Occasionally I'll make them something seperate in advance, but I never do it once dinner has started.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

What if you know you don't like something by the smell? Or after the first bite? Who cares? Lots of people don't like certain things. I would never order a guest in my house to take two bites of something I'd prepared. I would take them at their word that that was something unpalatable to them and offer something else. It just seems like common courtesy to me.
The difference is that small children often come to like foods if they are exposed to them several times (see my post above.) Sometimes they don't, however. My dd has *never* liked green beans, and still doesn't. I no longer request that she taste them, since it seems likely that this is a true dislike (as opposed to simple unfamilarity). A "rule" can be flexible, and those of us who have them are also capable of being respectful toward our children.

As for the guest thing, I would never order a guest to eat anything, but I would be offended if they visibly turned their nose up at what I had cooked and demanded to be served something else. I would consider that -- what else? -- childish behavior!







(I would have asked before-hand about strong dislikes or allergies, but you still can't garantee that everyone will be happy.)


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
What if you know you don't like something by the smell? Or after the first bite? Who cares?

well, for years i hated mushrooms b/c my dad told me they were fungus. but my mom loves mushrooms, so she would tend to serve mushrooms in lots of different forms and different dishes and she would always make me take 2 bites. (of course there was always other foods available too. but now that i think about it harder, i do remember some meals where i ate nothing but carrots.) eventually, gradually, i have no idea when, i came to like mushrooms by the time i was a teenager i loved them as much as my mom does. but if not for the 2-bite rule, maybe i would still think that i don't like mushrooms. to think of all the years of delicious mushrooms i might have missed out on!









anyway, i don't mean to argue w/ you, that's only me and my little anecdote. i really am fascinated by this topic and i'm curious about the different perspectives on it.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
The difference is that small children often come to like foods if they are exposed to them several times (see my post above.) Sometimes they don't, however. My dd has *never* liked green beans, and still doesn't. I no longer request that she taste them, since it seems likely that this is a true dislike (as opposed to simple unfamilarity). A "rule" can be flexible, and those of us who have them are also capable of being respectful toward our children.

People are using words like "have to" not "requesting" in regards to the 2 bite trial. I don't think that's respectful or effective in the long run.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
As for the guest thing, I would never order a guest to eat anything, but I would be offended if they visibly turned their nose up at what I had cooked and demanded to be served something else.

Who ever said "demanded?"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
(I would have asked before-hand about strong dislikes or allergies, but you still can't garantee that everyone will be happy.)

No, you can't, but you can practically guarantee how to make people unhappy. And that would be to scorn them and send them away hungry.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:

AND...this raises a good point about the tactic of involving your children in problem solving. Say your kid is constantly leaving their toys lying around and you are tired of tripping over them. So sit down with your kid and say "we have a problem". Then work with the child to figure out some solutions, taking all her suggestions as seriously as your own, writing them down, then the two of you go over them one-by-one and rule out why that would or would not be a possibility. Settle on a plan of action, and sign the agreement of the plan.
I really like this tactic....but I also think it leaves room for the 'choices' once all is said and done. Once you and the child (and this obviously is not for a toddler - at least 3 or 4 or older in my experience) have discussed the issue and came to a conclusion...the option is still there for them to 'follow the rule' or the toys go away. This way, the parent and child put together the rules together and the child then still needs to follow them or 'pay the concquences'...which hopefully they are more likely to remember since they were part of the rule making process.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

My parents used to make us eat one bite of everything on our plates. We were required to try foods we didn't like every so often. It really pissed me off. Even though I understood the "logic" behind it, it still felt like coercion. I HATE being forced to do something. It's just my personality. And in this case, it sort of backfired on my parents. There were foods that I really didn't enjoy eating until long after I became an adult because I associated them with coercion.

You would think I would have internalized that experience and not repeated it as a parent, wouldn't you? Not. Dh and I both went through a faze of trying to force our picky eater to try things. Fortunately we both snapped out of it. We need encourage her to eat things that we are pretty sure she will like--after loving blueberries as a toddler, she suddenly decided one year that she hated them; this year we finally talked her into trying one again and she loves them again now. But we didn't make her eat one. She is like me in that she hates to be pushed into something. So I won't ever force her to eat something she doesn't want. There are enough healthy foods that she likes to eat so that I can easily prepare her meals. And she always has the option of requesting some other nutritious food if she doesn't want food X that night.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
well, for years i hated mushrooms b/c my dad told me they were fungus. but my mom loves mushrooms, so she would tend to serve mushrooms in lots of different forms and different dishes and she would always make me take 2 bites. (of course there was always other foods available too. but now that i think about it harder, i do remember some meals where i ate nothing but carrots.) eventually, gradually, i have no idea when, i came to like mushrooms by the time i was a teenager i loved them as much as my mom does. but if not for the 2-bite rule, maybe i would still think that i don't like mushrooms.

You don't think you would have EVER tried them? In your whole life? Based on what one person said? Why couldn't they just be offered and either accepted or declined? Why forced? Forcing doesn't ever seem like the right response when it comes to food.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
to think of all the years of delicious mushrooms i might have missed out on!









Think of all the fighting over food you might have missed out on, too.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I would never order a guest in my house to take two bites of something I'd prepared. I would take them at their word that that was something unpalatable to them and offer something else. It just seems like common courtesy to me.

but when i am a guest, i always exercise the 2-bite rule. even if i know i won't like the thing, i just think it's polite (unless of course it's a dietary restriction or allergy type thing). but anyway that's kind of OT.

on a separate but related issue (if i'm hijacking, someone please call me on it... it seems like this thread has been meandering anyway...) i'm curious when your kids started fixing their own food? when your kid can make his own mac & cheese, or fix her own pb&j that does take care of this, right? how early can that happen? (i have no basis for comparison... my mom is kind of paranoid and anal about her kitchen, so i wasn't really allowed to mess around in the kitchen except under close supervision. even now, i am on thin ice in there.)


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
You don't think you would have EVER tried them? In your whole life? Based on what one person said? Why couldn't they just be offered and either accepted or declined? Why forced? Forcing doesn't ever seem like the right response when it comes to food.

oh, not like i would have been an adult thinking "i don't eat mushrooms because my dad told me they are fungus." more like, it would have been ingrained in my mind that "i don't like mushrooms" w/o ever really challenging that assumption.

i'm thinking of an ex-boyfriend who had a list of like a million things he wouldn't eat - more accurately, he had a list of like 10 things he would eat. i couldn't take him anywhere. really, you'd invite him over for dinner and he'd eat, like, bread (and be pissed off about it







). he would never try anything new, so i'd ask him how he knew he wasn't going to like such and such a thing, and he would dig his heels in even further: "i just don't like it." i never understood. i do not mean to imply that any of your kids will turn into that guy! (he had plenty of other issues too, and his upbringing was definitely not GD) i'm just wondering out loud how to prevent that kind of thing.

why do i procrastinate so much on mdc...?


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

My son is 4 and has now started making his own PB (no J) sandwiches and his own cereal







I am going to rearrange the kitchen soon so that he can help himself to these things (and juice)....I think it will be espically helpful when the new baby comes and I won't be as available.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

This may or may not be off topic, but another thing that I notice a lot of people talking about is "Would you ever do that to your husband?" or some other similar thing to justify why they wouldn't coerce/demand/request that their child do something. I personally don't really see that as a valid analogy because my husband would never fall down on the floor and start kicking and screaming because I asked him to put on his socks. My husband would never scream "NO!" and run to hide under the bed because I told him that before we could read a book we had to clean up his dinosaurs. My husband would never dump his plate of food on the floor because he didn't like what I was serving. My point is, of course, that my husband would not behave like a 2 or 3 year old because he isn't. He is an adult, and he is developmentally capable of thinking of a better alternative or negotiating with me. In my experience with children, a 2 or 3 year old is not old enough to do this. A 2 or 3 year old is not developmentally capable of reasoning through things (as another poster had asked, isn't there a better way to reason with your kids? Sometimes, the answer is no.) I think that sometimes people here seem to be asking an awful lot of their kids when they expect that their kids can reason through things. Very emotional, tantruming children can't reason. Two or 3 year olds really can't reason. That's why young children need their parents to be in charge and teach them acceptable ways to express themselves, and that's why, in my humble opinion, talking to children in different ways than I would talk to my spouse is completely acceptable. Children and adults behave differently and they think differently, and I think it's respectful to children to acknowledge that. I don't advocate screaming, degrading, and being mean to children, but I also don't see ordering a child to do something they don't want to do as disrespectful of their personhood. Children usually can't see or understand the big picture the way adults do.

Wilma


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Who ever said "demanded?"
No one. I was simply expanding on your example to make a point about the differences in behavior between most adults and most children.

Quote:

No, you can't, but you can practically guarantee how to make people unhappy. And that would be to scorn them and send them away hungry.








I think my post made it clear that I don't do this to my guests *or* my children, and I don't think that many other posters have indicated that they would do this either. I think it's interesting to debate these issues on the merits -- for example, I appreciate fianna's post about how the "one-bite rule" was not helpful to her. This is not our experience, since it hasn't resulted in any food struggles with dd. But it's instructive to know that it doesn't work for everyone. On the otherhand, portraying others' arguements in the extreme isn't really fair, IMO. (We get plenty of that from the Presidential candidates these days.







)_


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Bunnysmama: I appreciate what you are saying. But eating disorders DO seem to be epidemic in this country

I forgot that I wanted to address this, too. I'm not sure what would qualify as an official epidemic, but regardless, I think that how parents handle what their children are required to eat at mealtime is the smallest factor in this. I think the media fascination with thin, thinner, and thinnest is the major factor. (I realize that a lot of eating disorders are about control, but I also don't think that parents attempting to instill healthy eating habits is the major predicator of eating disorders or long-term control issues.) I also believe that, in countries where children are expected (or have no choice but to) eat what they are served, instances of eating disorders are very low or nearly non-existent. From what I have read, eating disorders are a "luxury" (and I don't use that term glibly) of well-fed countries.

Wilma


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
No one. I was simply expanding on your example to make a point about the differences in behavior between most adults and most children.

I get that, but there is a way to politely decline food where demanding something else doesn't have to be a part of it. I don't see anything wrong with declining food choices. Demanding other choices, on the other hand, would be annoying and corrected.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*







I think my post made it clear that I don't do this to my guests *or* my children, and I don't think that many other posters have indicated that they would do this either.

I don't think you do this. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. I promise! Not trying to make anyone feel bad!

However, other posters have said that they, indeed, do that. And I disagree with it and I think it is harmful to the parent/child relationship. It might not create lifelong eating disorders, but I don't think it's meeting the needs of children or fostering respect and trust.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

For me, the "one-bite rule" at home and the "three Brownie bites" rule at camp turned the issue of whether or not I would eat a particular food into a power struggle. I had decided not to try Food X because it repelled me in some way, and an adult was insisting that I had to eat some of it. If I tried it and did in fact like it, there was no way I could admit it without becoming the "loser" in this interaction. (I can think of at least one occasion on which I was required to eat a green bean and said it was not quite as bad as I expected, and both parents then smirked and spent the rest of the meal lecturing me about how this was why I should always try everything. I didn't make that mistake again, nor did I eat any more green beans at that meal.) Being forced to take bites never resulted in my discovering that Food X was REALLY GOOD, because my sense of what I did not want to eat was based on my tastes.

All of the foods I didn't like as a young child that I do like now entered my repertoire in the same way: At some point, the food was presented in a way that struck me as unusually appetizing, and ***I*** decided to give it a try. It's worth mentioning that the worst thing my parents could do at that point was to comment on how surprised they were that I was eating it and/or lecture me about how this proved that I did too like Food X and ought to eat huge portions of it from now on.

So, I'm not into "bite" rules...but I think it's fine to say, "Gee, I worked hard making this, and I really hoped everybody would like it. I'd like you to at least taste it." as long as you save it for the special occasions. Oh, and of course, kids should be taught that it is not polite or necessary to make a big fuss over how disgusting Food X is, because that hurts the feelings of the cook and the people who do like it.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

(I can think of at least one occasion on which I was required to eat a green bean and said it was not quite as bad as I expected, and both parents then smirked and spent the rest of the meal lecturing me about how this was why I should always try everything. I didn't make that mistake again, nor did I eat any more green beans at that meal.)
What a great point.

Quote:

It's worth mentioning that the worst thing my parents could do at that point was to comment on how surprised they were that I was eating it and/or lecture me about how this proved that I did too like Food X and ought to eat huge portions of it from now on.
This makes my skin crawl just thinking about it. This is exactly what mil does, and it is maddening. Dh is the oldest of 7, and is 18 years older than the youngest, so I got to witness this kind of talk from mil a lot at family dinners. It is SO condecending. What it comes down to is she is saying "I told you so". I have stricken the whole "I told you so" attitude from my brain because of this.

(Well, except to tease dh sometimes.







)

Maybe this whole eating debate is a case of equal amounts of nature and nurture. I can tell you that my dad and my siblings and I all have an avid love for food. We all have a pretty large repertoire of favorite foods. My parents used the "at least taste it" method with us, and I think it helped, though I didn't like it at the time. But that's just me and my family. I really think tastes for food are biologically wired.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

IdentityCrisisMama, if you are reading this here is the "heads up" you were talking about before.









I grew up in my grandmother's house. She had some pretty weird issues in general and food was one of them. Breakfast was so important to her that she would make me ice cream sodas, cinnamon sugar toast, etc. to try to tempt me to eat something. I never wanted to eat so early in the morning - still don't. So she'd give me this totally unhealthy stuff and then get mad if I didn't eat it. At dinner, she made the same thing for everybody, even if she was making something she knew I didn't like, I got no special treatment. I had to eat a small portion of it - not even 2 bites, a whole portion - before I could leave the table. And she made a lot of stuff I didn't like. Plain boiled spinach, beets, asparagus, liver, cabbage, etc. I can remember sitting at the table for 3 hours before my grandmother would come in and disgustedly send me to bed. The only thing that saved me from getting the rejected dinner for breakfast was her need to see me eat something before I left the house. I'm sure she wrestled with that dilemma.







It was a huge power struggle. I was willing to sit there forever, I knew eventually she would have to let me leave the table and of course I was right. It's symptomatic of other problems we had but it sure didn't *help* our relationship. Oh, and I was the only person who was required to eat some of everything she made. The adults were off the hook.

So. DS is still very young and we have plenty of time for trouble to arise. But he's a good eater so far - willing to try new things, likes a wide range of foods, eats veggies and fruit, etc. I consider food to be a complete non-issue. If we are having something he hasn't had before or that I know he doesn't really like, I make a simple back-up like cold chicken and cheese or a soy burger. If he wants to pour a puddle of dressing into his baked potato, he can. If he only wants to eat 3 bites and leaves a mostly full plate, then 30 minutes later wants a peanut butter sandwich, that is fine. I just let it all go. 99.9% of the food in the house is healthy so if he wants to eat it in any amount at any time, OK by me. No kid is going to eat cheese for a month. Just make healthy food available and get out of the way.

While I'm rambling, here is a little story - we were visiting DH's brother and SIL, they have a 2 y.o. girl and a 5 y.o. boy. We went out to dinner at a mexican restaurant and 2 y.o. wanted to dip her chip in some salsa. BIL and SIL wouldn't let her. They said it was too spicy. They wrangled over it for 10 minutes before she finally had a meltdown.







Just let the kid try some salsa, for crying out loud! Not only that, but it was OK for her to eat the chips, but not OK for her to dip them in the salsa which may have actually been kind of healthy?!


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
This may or may not be off topic, but another thing that I notice a lot of people talking about is "Would you ever do that to your husband?" or some other similar thing to justify why they wouldn't coerce/demand/request that their child do something. I personally don't really see that as a valid analogy because my husband would never fall down on the floor and start kicking and screaming because I asked him to put on his socks. My husband would never scream "NO!" and run to hide under the bed because I told him that before we could read a book we had to clean up his dinosaurs. My husband would never dump his plate of food on the floor because he didn't like what I was serving.









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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
II think that sometimes people here seem to be asking an awful lot of their kids when they expect that their kids can reason through things. Very emotional, tantruming children can't reason. Two or 3 year olds really can't reason. That's why young children need their parents to be in charge and teach them acceptable ways to express themselves, and that's why, in my humble opinion, talking to children in different ways than I would talk to my spouse is completely acceptable. Children and adults behave differently and they think differently, and I think it's respectful to children to acknowledge that. I don't advocate screaming, degrading, and being mean to children, but I also don't see ordering a child to do something they don't want to do as disrespectful of their personhood. Children usually can't see or understand the big picture the way adults do.

Wilma










And another




























for BunnysMama. ITA.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't use that anology, but I think you (you three) don't understand it. It is simply a way to say that it is not healthy to use disrepectful ways of communicating (yelling, berating, shaming, forcing) with anyone - your partner or your children. It does not mean that you must talk to your children the same way you talk to your partner. It tires me to read all the time that because I say children deserve respect it must mean that I let a child kick me. I want to be able to see the reasons behind my partner's after-work grumpiness (instead of taking it personally) the same I want to be able to see the reasons behind my toddler's kicking (instead of thinking he or she is just bad/manipulating/doing it to get my goat, etc.).

There are posters here who do treat their children in a vastly different way than they treat their partners; hence, the analogy.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
I don't use that anology, but I think you (you three) don't understand it. It is simply a way to say that it is not healthy to use disrepectful ways of communicating (yelling, berating, shaming, forcing) with anyone - your partner or your children.There are posters here who do treat their children in a vastly different way than they treat their partners; hence, the analogy.


I do treat my chldren vastly differently than my partner. I DO NOT yell berate shame or force though.

I do make demands I would not make on my partner. check out my post on how I deal with my DD in response to "my kids have too much power." I wouldn't talk to my spouse that way. I think it is a good way to talk to a five year old though


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv my 2 sweeties*
Just quickly, if you wind up in battles about the TV staying off, consider just removing it for a while. This is how we have had to handle tv with DS. DD would accept limits on viewing, but DS begs and begs and begs and drives me nuts! Taking it down has worked wonders as far as stopping the battle completely -- out of sight, out of mind! We still pull it out now and then for a treat. Both kids are playing much more creatively now.

As for the ice cream and other "junk" she knows is there -- how about removing it from the house for a while? You and dh will have to practice what you preach, which can be a good lesson in itself! I'm no saint on this one -- I often pull out the chips and salsa after the kids go to bed. But if it were becoming a daily battle with the kiddos refusing to eat other food and begging for the chips, I'd go without for a while. Your dd won't refuse to eat good food if it's the only stuff available! An occasional treat is fine, but for a while you may want to limit it to outside the house, until a better pattern is established at home. A good tip I learned to compromise between making a separate meal for a picky eater and forcing them to eat only what you cooked: Always have something on the table that you know the child likes. If that's all they eat, fine, but you don't get yourself into the bind of having to be a short-order cook! So if you might serve tuna casserole with cherry tomatoes, cheese and bread. If she eats some of each, great. If she only eats bread, cheese and one tomato, fine. It's worked pretty well for us.









Haven't read all the responses yet (long thread), but I want to ditto this. I have two foster children with food issues. I will not let them just eat junk like they want (and specific junk at that), but I also don't make them eat stuff they genuinely dislike (like onions and spinach). I make some meals that they love, some that are healthy and they don't hate. Everything has a balance, you know?

Good luck,
Kristi


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Maya, I have a different approach.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

CB, I'm not sure whether you're laughing at me because you find my position ridiculous or whether you're laughing because you find what I've written funny.

Wilma


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
Maya, I have a different approach.


Yes, I understand you have a different approach. I think what I, Charles B and Bunnysmama are saying is that we do. We don't believe in treating kids like adults and Bunnysmama gave a good (and amusing) explanation of why.

So when posters say, "I wouldn't do X to my dc because it would be rude to do to my dh" that is not a good reason/analogy for us. There are things we don't do because it is wrong to do to children, but that is a different story.

I believe that all 3 of us still use GD. As a matter of fact, this is one difference between my inter-action with my kids and with my DH. I sure wouldn't "discipline" him, even gently. I strongly believe that things are different with adults, who it is not your job to teach.


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

I just wanted to comment on the food issue also. I am a picky eater, always have been. And a lot of it does not have to do with taste. Most of it is texture, smell, or what the stuff is. I love the taste of onions in things, but I hate when they are still crunchy. Don't know why, I just do not like them that way, they must be mushy, lol! Broccoli, I cannot stand the smell of it, and the smell hangs around for hours too, ugg. I have tried to eat it, I know it is good for you, but the smell makes me gag, I just cannot do it. And some things I just cannot eat because of what they are, sour cream, cottage cheese, sunny side eggs, egg yolk in general. I know that it is all mental, that the taste is not that bad, but it is not something I can get around. I remember one of the best things my Mom ever did was find out WHY I did not like something, and she would try to cook it another way next time. Sometimes it would work and I would find that although I did not like cooked peas I loved them raw. I knew I would have to try what ever it was she made, but she always had something like rice that she knew everyone would eat too. My dad however was one of those "you put it on your plate you eat it all" types. He made my brother eat a bunch of ketchup when he put to much on his plate one time. I hated meal times with him (he was gone a lot because of his job). Around here I try to do what my Mom did, although I seem to be only picky one here, Dh and ds will eat anything that is set on their plates, so I lucked out there. But whenever I hear parents complain about their picky eaters, I really feel for the kids cause I know what it can be like.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Quote:

Very emotional, tantruming children can't reason. Two or 3 year olds really can't reason.
How do you know they are incapable of reason?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
This may or may not be off topic, but another thing that I notice a lot of people talking about is "Would you ever do that to your husband?" or some other similar thing to justify why they wouldn't coerce/demand/request that their child do something. I personally don't really see that as a valid analogy because my husband would never fall down on the floor and start kicking and screaming because I asked him to put on his socks. My husband would never scream "NO!" and run to hide under the bed because I told him that before we could read a book we had to clean up his dinosaurs. My husband would never dump his plate of food on the floor because he didn't like what I was serving.


OK, from my point of view- if my husband asked me to put on my socks- I might not fall down on the floor kicking and screaming, but- I wouldn't likely put my socks on either







, I am not a fan of being told what to do- now if it was actually him asking me to do so, and he explained what *I* felt was a good reason why, I would likely do it, but still on *my* time frame and *if* I felt there was a good reason.

Now story time and picking up dinosaurs- let's put that into adult world- if dh said he wasn't going to spend time doing something special with me until I did the dishes, um.... let's just say that would not go over well. He could say that he doesn't want to spend special time with me until after the dishes are done, and I'd likely either- offer to do them, offer to help him, or maybe say- "ok, when you're done with the dishes, I'll be here", but the third option would be rare and only likely if I had something else pressing to do. I love and feel respected by my dh, and if it meant a lot to him that the house be cleaned up before we relax together, I would help him out, no biggie, my kids do the same for me







.

If my husband made a dinner I did not like (knowing I did not like it- I am a picky eater despite my mom's efforts to get me to try new things), and then told me that I couldn't get myself another meal that I *do* like, AND that I had to eat what he made (in part b/c he's bigger than me and the "boss" even if he didn't say that), the meal might not just end up on the floor IYKWIM.

Now, on the flip side- if dd hits ds, I stop her and tell her that it is NOT ok to hit him, I might even yell about it, then I would try to figure out *WHAT* was going on with her that she did that, to prevent it from happening again. I would react the same way if dh spanked ds.

That is where I am coming from when I talk about respecting my kids like I do dh.

Still, I fail, often, I don't always treat dh or the kids in the most respectful way, but I am working on it







.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
How do you know they are incapable of reason?

Because just about every theory of child development that we have tells us that young children, younger than about 6 or 7, haven't developed the mental capacity to reason.

Wilma


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Wilma, I've read the exact opposite in child development theory.

I think it used to be quite popular to think children incapable of reason. What that meant was adults saw children as incapable of doing what the adult wanted. The adult thought himself to have very good reason(ing) for the request/command to the child. When the child 'disobeyed', the only conclusion drawn was the child must not be capable of reason(ing) that the request was completely reasonable.

Young children (under age 4) have remarkable inductive judgement capabilities. Anyone who has toddlers knows how astute they are at noticing subtle changes in their environment, things moved different places, emotional shifts in parents, what the pets are doing/not doing. They can readily identify and compare these changes.

Just one example. I am very glad science now supports children having reasoning capabilities. It was a dark age when children were thought to be without reason and thus, 'need to be told what to do' (and coerced into doing it).


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Really? Hmm. Not according to the books I read - normal, everyday, non-biased child psychology books.

You seem to come up with a quite a bit of statements about a lot of things (BTW 16 per million deaths in SA from eating disorders).


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Peppermint, I think you're reading too much into what I said. And, you did exactly what I was saying I don't agree with: you compared a situation involving a child with a situation involving an adult. If I let my children play with all their toys without putting them away before they moved on to something else, the floor would be covered with toys. I'm not ok with that. I ask that when they are done playing with something, they put it away before they move on to something else. I don't see that as an unreasonable or disrespectful request, period. I have things I have to do to keep this household a comfortable and efficient place to live, and so do my kids. It has nothing to do with refusing to spend special time with them until they comply with my whims. (And that's just the one example that I will address.)

Also, there is a big difference between a child noticing and comparing differences in their environment and being able to reason, which is looking at a situation from various angles and choosing a reasoned course of action. Children act out of their own sense of self-interest because they are ego-ecentric and lack the experience to anticipate the consequences of their actions on any sort of sophisticated level. That is what I learned in studying psychology, and that is what I have observed in my years of experience working with and living with children.

Also, ParisMaman, I don't appreciate your tone. I make my statements based on my experiences, just as anyone else does. I take what people say at face value. I don't enjoy arguing with people just to argue with them. When someone's experiences or opinions contradict mine, I assume that what they have said comes from the same place of good faith within them that my statements come from in me. I am here to add my voice to the discussion, not to prove that I am right. I am here to share my experiences and learn from others. I don't make up statements just to seem like an authority on anything. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, then tell me to shut up and go away. But please don't treat me snidely just because I have contributed something you don't happen to agree with.

I don't think that my continued participation in this discussion will be productive for anyone, so over and out!

Wilma


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Wilma

I was trying to talk to the point in your post that I quoted, you said your dh would not respond to you the way your child does, I am saying, and maybe it's just me, that if I were treated the way many treat children, I (as an adult) would respond in a similar fashion as the children often do, I was telling you why *I* think the husband analogy is a good one. I understand that you don't think it is a good analogy and I was trying to point out what I saw as a flaw in your reasoning, that's all.

That said, I am sorry you are done with the thread (So not even sure you are reading this), but, I was curious, were you the one who mentioned that you don't use GD? Someone said that on this thread a few pages back, and it made me wonder why they were posting in this forum.


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

Peppermint, you remembered that correctly, yes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
I've only read the first two pages of this very long thread, but already I have run up against a number of things that have made me have to bite my tongue. Let it be known that I am not a GDer. Wilma


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## fullofgrace (Nov 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
This may or may not be off topic, but another thing that I notice a lot of people talking about is "Would you ever do that to your husband?" or some other similar thing to justify why they wouldn't coerce/demand/request that their child do something. I personally don't really see that as a valid analogy because my husband would never fall down on the floor and start kicking and screaming because I asked him to put on his socks. My husband would never scream "NO!" and run to hide under the bed because I told him that before we could read a book we had to clean up his dinosaurs. My husband would never dump his plate of food on the floor because he didn't like what I was serving.

LOL! Well, you're right that a grown man wouldn't respond that way, but I also think that in most cases that would never even have the CHANCE to occur, because generally, family meals are planned based on what BOTH husband and wife like to eat. I wouldn't waste my time and money making an entire meal that only I want to eat. (well, unless I could really use and enjoy leftovers for myself for the next several days, but that's besides the point of this thread lol)

{And I'm not just talking to you BunnysMomma, I mean the general 'you'. Your summary of that idea just worked well with my train of thought.







}

DH and I (yes, bless him, he cooks!) try to make meals that a least the majority of our 5 person family would like to eat (and on a good day, everyone would like). I'm a picky eater, but now dealing with my girls' special needs, I think it is a biiiggg sensory thing for me. The smells of many foods make me gag and feel sick to my stomach, and at that moment I literally shudder to think what will happen if I put that food in my mouth. Spicy foods (hot spicy and strong flavor spicy) put burns & sores in my mouth and make tears flow from my eyes. I have real sympathy now when my kids panic and their faces take on a look of dread at eating a certain food. I know that fear all too well.

From sight and/or smell I know what food is going to be problematic for me without taking a bite. I think kids can too. Maybe in some cases they won't really have a reaction, but if they are upset and afraid to try it, forcing them to try it is going to give them a negative emotional reaction to that food, and then you may have a battle on your hands each and every time it gets put on the table. We adults know what we like and dislike by look, smell, and texture -- kids do too! They have those very same senses. Children are not lacking them just because they're younger than we are.

My girls have a lot of sensory issues (both have PDD-NOS on the spectrum, they are very Asperger-like) so my situation may be somewhat different, but for me, I have bigger things to enforce with them then eating what I want when. Like working on getting DD#2 NOT to run away from me (she's turning 5 on the 17th but developmentally is really turning 3) - she's super fast and has no idea of safety. "Be with Mommy" is the only thing in her life that is not a choice for her so I can keep her safe AND because by keeping the "must do" thing to a bare minimum she understands that concept all the better.

Both girls eat fairly healthily (as in not wanting junk food and candy, but instead reaching for better choices) in their own time in their own way, and they get a little better at it every day. I've been doing a big remodel of their diets, and have been introducing new foods a little at a time. (a variety of fruits are the current 'new' foods) I truly believe that because they trust me to NOT make them eat something, and just let them expore it first (touch it, smell it, squeeze it, and sometimes even eventually lick it), they will try eating it on their own (and most often when they think I'm not looking! ROFL!!


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## Morgaine (Mar 21, 2004)

[QUOTE/]and just let them expore it first (touch it, smell it, squeeze it, and sometimes even eventually lick it), they will try eating it on their own (and most often when they think I'm not looking! ROFL!![/QUOTE]
I also do this. I always test the firmness with my fork and also take it apart, smell it, and if it passes, put it in my mouth. that's why when I go out to eat I try not to try something new cause I hate doing this in public. But I often experiment at home with cooking and I do try to try new things.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
I think that how parents handle what their children are required to eat at mealtime is the smallest factor in this.

As someone who has suffered from eating disorders my entire adolescent and adult life, I completely disagree.

My counselor disagreed, as well. She recognized the original source of my issues when she met my father. As much as I love him, he is, in some ways, a control freak. Forcing me to choose between eating certain things or not eating at all was one of his earliest ways of controlling me.

Sure, media plays a big role later on, but by the time children are old enough to get the media message, the path is already paved. Children learn early on that their food is something to be controlled so, when their lives spiral out of control, they may grasp onto it as something that they can regiment themselves.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
CB, I'm not sure whether you're laughing at me because you find my position ridiculous or whether you're laughing because you find what I've written funny.

Wilma










Oh, because I really was rolling on the floor laughing my fanny off at the image of my husband collapsing on the floor in a big tantrum!!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
I don't use that anology, but I think you (you three) don't understand it. It is simply a way to say that it is not healthy to use disrepectful ways of communicating (yelling, berating, shaming, forcing) with anyone - your partner or your children. It does not mean that you must talk to your children the same way you talk to your partner. It tires me to read all the time that because I say children deserve respect it must mean that I let a child kick me. I want to be able to see the reasons behind my partner's after-work grumpiness (instead of taking it personally) the same I want to be able to see the reasons behind my toddler's kicking (instead of thinking he or she is just bad/manipulating/doing it to get my goat, etc.).









PM

You say it so well.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
So when posters say, "I wouldn't do X to my dc because it would be rude to do to my dh" that is not a good reason/analogy for us. There are things we don't do because it is wrong to do to children, but that is a different story.

Perhaps you can give an example so we can discuss it? I'm having a hard time thinking of something I would do to my child that I wouldn't do to a husband or partner. There are, of course, things I do *for* my child that I wouldn't necessarily do for a husband or partner on a routine basis, but that's an issue of capability.

What the posters who say that are implying is that they give their children the same respect that they do their husband. It doesn't mean that they deal with their children and their husband in exactly the same way, with the same words, etc. (which is how you seem to be taking it). Children, of course, have different needs and abilities than husbands do - remembering that when approaching them is part of respecting them.

As for not disciplining your partner - I also disagree. We all "teach" our partners how to treat us. And there's a certain amount of teaching each other that goes into learning how to live as partners.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Sure, media plays a big role later on, but by the time children are old enough to get the media message, the path is already paved. Children learn early on that their food is something to be controlled so, when their lives spiral out of control, they may grasp onto it as something that they can regiment themselves.

And people who have been controlled by parents their whole lives are often more than willing to hand that control over to someone (or something) else later on.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:

And people who have been controlled by parents their whole lives are often more than willing to hand that control over to someone (or something) else later on.
Example?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Of a person or a control situation?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom*
Example?

Abused wives.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

whoa! i have to take issue w/ that. from my experience as a dv advocate, and from my research and reading on dv (admittedly out of date, it's been years since i worked on this issue) there are no patterns suggesting that people w/ such-and-such type childhood are more likely to be victims of abuse later on. (although there does seem to be a correllation between witnessing abuse as a child and being abusive as an adult.)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
whoa! i have to take issue w/ that. from my experience as a dv advocate, and from my research and reading on dv (admittedly out of date, it's been years since i worked on this issue) there are no patterns suggesting that people w/ such-and-such type childhood are more likely to be victims of abuse later on.

Really? I've read just the opposite - over and over again - that children who are abused have a greater chance of either growing up to be abusers or growing up to date/marry abusers (or both - abused by husbands and abuse their own children). Humans most often grow into what they know (unless there is some journey to enlightenment along the way).

That doesn't mean that all abused wives were abused as children, of course.

It stands to reason that a woman who was controlled as a girl would choose (subconsciously, most likely) to partner with a person who controls her. Either that or become a control freak, herself. Or, again, both.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

T

"Boys who witness domestic violence are more likely to batter their female partners as adults than boys raised in nonviolent homes. There is no evidence, however, that girls who witness their mothers' abuse have a higher risk of being battered as adults."
http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/kids.htm

sorry i don't have a study or any stats or anything to offer. i just did a quick google. this is what i remember learning years ago. i guess reasonable minds can differ on this point, i can see both sides.

but i DO take issue w/ the characterization that battered women "choose" abusive relationships. i don't believe anyone "chooses" to be abused. i could say a lot more, but i'm already hijacking this thread...

sorry!!!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Dragonfly said:


> Perhaps you can give an example so we can discuss it? I'm having a hard time thinking of something I would do to my child that I wouldn't do to a husband or partner. There are, of course, things I do *for* my child that I wouldn't necessarily do for a husband or partner on a routine basis, but that's an issue of capability.
> 
> I would not tell my husband that he has watched ennough tv for the day. I would not tell him that he could not have any more ice-cream. I would not tell my husband that he has to bring his plate from the table, even if he forgot. I would not tell my husband that he could not touch something in a store because it could break. I would not tell him that he could not buy something he wanted becaue I disaproved of it.
> 
> I could give lots more examples.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
but i DO take issue w/ the characterization that battered women "choose" abusive relationships. i don't believe anyone "chooses" to be abused. i could say a lot more, but i'm already hijacking this thread...

Perhaps choose is the wrong word because it might imply conscious thought. When I wrote "choose" I qualified it with subconsciously. Women often choose mates who, if we had stronger insight into our subconscious, we would know were not good for us. We also often, for some reason, choose mates who are much like our fathers.

Here's one link I found:

Abused girls grow to be abused women

Btw, I know this thread has veered a bit, but it still seems relevant in the sense that we're speaking of indoctrinating behaviors. I'm surprised that anyone (not saying you are - just anyone) would take issue with the notion that a child who was controlled excessively would be more likely to grow into an adult who looked for external control or became a control freak. Isn't one of the main goals of gentle discipline to teach our children how to function as gentle adults and, hopefully, parent their own children gently? We can't expect that children are only impacted long-term by our positive behaviors and that they don't incorporate the negative behaviors into their lives.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

But, Maya, I wouldn't tell my _child_ any of those things either.

What I would do is examine why I am starting to get hyper about the TV watching and the ice cream eating - and remove both from the house all together if it is really causing a problem between my child and me. I would ask myself, why, today of all days, do I feel she's had enough? Do I think I'm a bad mom when she does these things? Did my mom & dad limit me too much? Do I feel I need to do the same? What is the worst that can happen? Why have I let her watch so much already that now I feel uncomfortable with it? Do I feel guilty about not spending that time with her? Will it kill her? Or will she have the natural consequences of tired eyes and tummy ache? Why does it bug me that she eats a lot of ice cream? And if I'm so worried about it why is it available?

I feel like I should now that there is no tv watching or ice cream eating right now in our house. And it's not because I layed down some arbitrary law about it; most of it is simply modelling healthier habits. And it helps that there is no ice cream in the house.

Also, if my child were watching too much television or eating too much ice cream, I would wonder what the underlying reasons are. Am I modelling appropriate TV-watching or am I, too, sitting around vegging in front of the tube every chance I get? Do I model healthy eating? Or am I in the freezer with a big ol' spoon every chance I get?

Then I would work out a compromise (democratic discipline). Contrary to what some believe here, my child is perfectly capable of reason. But that's because she has always had a say in everything that affects her life. I don't think it's reasonable to tell a child that he or she suddenly has a say - when he or she never has - and expect him or her to start immediately to reason with you. With my child I lay out the consequences on her health of certain actions and ask her what we can do that would be healthier.

And in every way this _is_ how I interreact with my dh. For example, when I am offended I look at why I feel that way. What did he really say? Is that really offensive? Or is it because my mom used to say such and such and that's why it really bugs me, etc. When there's a problem we don't agree on we work out a compromise.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
Contrary to what some believe here, my child is perfectly capable of reason. But that's because she has always had a say in everything that affects her life.










I can ditto the first sentence.
I wish I could ditto the second sentence







. I am working on it!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Well Paris that's how you and I differ. I think its fine for me to tell my kids this stuff. I think its fine that different rules apply to me. This is how I was raised. My mom alway said "Adulthood has its privleges. This made sense to me. I was VERY happy with the GD and limits that were set. I always felt nutured and loved. As I got older, I was given some more say in things. It happened gradually and naturally and deicsion making has never been a problem for me.

I am not going to change my way of doing things because my kids are so happy. We do not fight about the rules in our family. The rules are the rules. My kids are expected to follow them This is NOT a democracy. However, there is little consequence in "breaking" the rules and it very seldom it happens.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

*BunnysMama* I am sorry I was snide. I will PM an apology. There were several factors feeding my snarkiness (MIL here questioning my schooling choices, feeling bad about a few of the threads here, etc.), one of which was also the fact that you do not practice GD yet come to a GD support forum to give advice.

*Maya43* We're all just laying out our choices for other posters to read. But I _am_ willing to change my tactics when I read something that I hadn't thought of before. That's why I am here.


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## tinaq (Aug 26, 2002)

:

Great advice and situations to think about here. Thanks!


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

This *is* a great thread... I've been off MDC for awhile because I didnt' feel like I was finding any new and original discussions- but this is certainly one.

i don't have advice for the OP, but wanted to point out a few things having read through all the posts.

Regarding young children and reasoning... It seems to me from the examples given, that it is not that the child is reasoning, as much as participating in problem solving. to me, this is entirely different and much more of an appropriate expectation from a child as young as 2. In the example Piglet gave, she mentioned talking to the child about the toys on the floor and then coming up with potential solutions and choosing. As I said, I think this is participating in problem solving, and clearly is a parent guided approach; ie: the child cannot do this on his/her own (again, talking about 2-4 year olds, the exceptional child the exception). *Reasoning* to me would be a child who can, without guidance, come up with various possibilities, weigh the pros and cons of each, and come up with the best to fit the issue. So, perhaps this is nit-picky but i do think that its important to note that yes, young children absolutely can be involved in making decisions and problem solving as soon as possible and that by doing so, he or she will reach the independent reasoning stage all the sooner, I am sure.

I am sorry that Bunnysmom left the discussion. I think its irrelevant whether she practices GD or not, personally. What's the point of always talking with people who agree, or can't raise an alternative viewpoint? Helps me to resolve my own position.

An observation: I think it is often easier to see how
*other* people can/should change, and that our own experiences and often those of people we know are the exception to the rule. Not that good healthy debate can't happen, however....

Just wanted to add... CB, i was a teacher of middle school kids, so i really feel where you are coming from with a lot of your approaches!! I often feel like being a teacher is both great/poor preparation for being a parent at the same time- my house is not a classroom, and my child is not my student, and yet!


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

*Reasoning* to me would be a child who can, without guidance, come up with various possibilities, weigh the pros and cons of each, and come up with the best to fit the issue.
Not to be nit-picky, or to brag, but my 4 year-old really can do that. _She_ comes up with the ideas. And she loves doing it and is proud of herself. Maybe she's special that way. I dunno.

Newmainer, you may be right about being non-GD or even anti-GD not being an issue, but we've had a history of posters advocating non-GD tactics. But, you're right. We should stay in the present and just take what the poster says at face value without adding our own issues and garbage and perceptions to it.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

On the GD and not GD issue, I wanted to point out that I love it that people come here to learn about GD who are not using GD-yet. I am simply not big on proud declarations of "I don't use GD and I am appaled by the things being advocated here" by people who are not interested in changing, yk? This is supposed to be a GD support board, and there is NOT supposed to be debate of GD around here. I visit another board where I find myseld "defending" GD and I am thankful for the safe haven here. Certainly I was not try to tell the poster that she can't post here, just







as to why some people do.

PM- my 4 yo can reason too







(but I wouldn't say she did at 2, at that point it was more like what newmainer was talking about).


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*

PM- my 4 yo can reason too







(but I wouldn't say she did at 2, at that point it was more like what newmainer was talking about).

yup, that's what i meant. I am not really close to any 4 year olds, however, I am sure your children are special regardless







and that others may still be at the problem solving stage. currently, my 14 mo. old dd is at neither, though I wish she was!!

yes, I agree that a forum dedicated to GD shouldn't be where people argue its validity- that's what its here for. I just personally didn't feel like Bunnysmom's contributions were all that argumentative and damaging to the thread, just adding her experience with 21 kids







.
Probably if she hadnt' mentioned herself that she didnt' practice GD, we'd be none the wiser. But, whatever, I digress.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I've spent some time chatting with bunnysmama, and read many of her posts here, and I think she is more GD than she thinks.







I, too, have appreciated her input. Some things I agree with, and some I don't. But as someone else said, it's helpful to hear all POV's because occasionally I learn something unexpectedly!









I also agree with newmainer that it depends how you define "reasoning". I agree with bunnysmama that current theories suggest young children are not capable of reasoning. But I don't take that to mean that they can't participate in problem-solving, etc. As bunnysmama said: their world is very "me-centred", as it should be, and it takes quite some time before kids are able to put themselves in others' shoes, or consider options that aren't in their direct self-interest.

Hmmm...I don't know if I'm saying this right. I don't think my child is ready for the sort of reasoning that allows her total freedom of choice, or that she will necessarily understand consequences of certain actions. For example, it's reasonable to assume if you run out into the road without looking, you may get hit. I can explain this to 2 year old DD 'till I'm out of breath, but it's not reasonable for me to expect her to get that...does that make sense?


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

WHEW! Now that took me some time to read! Well worth it though, what an incredible exchange of ideas. I've been away from the board for a while (on an extended vacation in Canada) and it was good to come back and fall right into a discussion that provides so much food for thought (pun intended).

I have been doing a great deal of thinking about my parenting philosophy lately. My MIL and I have had a total breakdown in communication, a huge blowout actually (ParisMaman I feel your pain) and one of the main factors is my parenting style. I'm planning to try and paste together an entry for my online diary on the subject using posts I have written on other boards and blogs (seems this topic has been coming up for many of my online contacts lately). I think my passion for this way of parenting is starting to rival my passion for birth - and I just need to spend some time articulating it all so people around me understand on some level. I'd love to share it here when it is finished and hear comments from you all.

Anyway.... through reading all the posts on tantrums, I noticed that there was much discussion about how to deal with tantrums once they have occurred, but very little mention of giving children specific tools to help them deal with rising emotions BEFORE they hit the boiling point. I've been giving this a great deal of thought lately - I feel I need a big bag-o-tricks (GD-style) to deal with the many dilemmas and situations I face as a parent, so that I have a set of tools on hand and am not having to resort to impulsive, reactive parenting. That is the main reason I love this board - because I get ideas and tips that I never would have thought of or been exposed to otherwise. This line of thought led me to begin thinking about how my dd (almost three) could probably use her own bag of tricks beyond my simply modeling behaviours to her, and respecting her emotions when they occur. I began to wonder how much more empowered she might feel if she knew she had something simple, concrete techniques to fall back on in times of stress. I'd love to hear from any of you who have developed "tricks" that your young children can use to help themselves in situations where emotions are starting to run high.

One simple, and very effective tool we have come up with (a total fluke actually) works to provide a physical break for dd when things start to heat up. When we start to notice her getting to the frustration stage where words just don't penetrate, we act out the following (mostly just verbally directing her at this point - but at first it seemed very important that we were doing the actions along with her). The actual sequence is totally random, just what came to my head the very first time I tried it, I imagine you could substitute just about anything. I've had parents come up to me all over the place asking about this and how we came up with it







!

-Raise your hands in the air
-Touch your toes
-Raise your hands up high again
-Tickle your armpits (this almost always gets her giggling)
-Take some deeeeeeeep breaths

I am telling you, as simple as this sounds, it has worked amazingly well. It provides enough of a break in her building emotions, and just a little bit of physical movement to work out some energy. All except for a handful of times, she's been able to calm herself enough that we can move forward and work through the issue that got her heated up in the first place. The few times it hasn't worked (when she told me "Mommy, I do not WANT to raise my hands in the air!") I've recognized that she really does need an emotional release, things have gone too far to cut off and I try to support her as best I can. I've even witnessed her do the whole sequence herself at one point (she was trying and trying and trying to open the fridge door - not asking for help so I stayed sitting - but getting visibly and audibly frustrated. Just when I was expecting her to have a mini-meltdown, she stopped, raised her hands in the air, went through the whole thing and then calmly stepped back to the fridge and opened the door.

We have known for a long time that when she is at all emotional, Bella needs physical reminders of things, words just don't cut it - she needs to DO something or be physically SHOWN something. When she was having a bad tantrum issue at one point (when she was younger), we showed her how she could jump up and down to get her frustration out. She has a whining button (her nose), a volume button (her ear) that I can just touch at times when I know she is not able to *hear* me with her ears. These serve as a reminder to her that she is doing something that people around her have a hard time dealing with. She loves to test out how well these buttons work on others as well - which gives us a good opportunity to model the negative behaviour, so she understands what we don't' like, and also see adults stop themselves from doing it. The touch gets through to her when nothing else will, and usually we are able to move on in a calmer manner so I can actually understand her needs and not feel frustrated and stressed myself. As with the tantrum thing above, sometimes she tells me "But I want to/have to cry/yell/whine", and when she tells me that I trust that she knows what she is talking about. For her, physical interventions like these really work, and she picks up on and internalizes them very quickly. It is beautiful to see her connecting with these coping mechanisms and using them on her own.

I get frustrated with the generally accepted notion (not around here of course) that my job is to 'make' my daughter into a 'good' child. Most people I encounter are surprised and more than a little perplexed by the fact that I care very little about raising a child to fits into the mainstream mold of what a 'GOOD' child should be. My focus is on building a framework for the type of internal discipline that will server her well through her life, so I try not to worry to much about whether she has a tantrum at the mall or whines for a toy. I deal with those of course, one at a time as they occur, and feel that every parenting 'problem' is actually an opportunity for teaching and learning (not just on Bella's part, but most assuredly on mine as well). At each uncomfortable crossroads we have reached on this parenting journey, I try to ask myself "Is my reaction to this situation empowering my daughter to develop a sense of internal discipline?" Later in life, when the stakes are much harder, that is what will really matter. My main goal is that parenting in this manner will lay the groundwork for a child who can think outside the box, who knows that not all situations have a cookie-cutter solution and who EXPECTS to be respected and to have her voice heard. I actually want my children to question authority. Yes, even mine.

No, parenting cannot usually operate as a true democracy, but on the other hand, I have no interest in running a dictatorship







For me, the final frontier on my total conversion to GD is one of the main topics of this thread - the whole food issue. In fact, I've been meaning to come here and post about it for ages. This is the one area where I fear I have been more dictator-like than I would hope&#8230;.reading all these posts has been a wonderful lesson for me in other ways to approach the situation.

I hope this post continues, in whatever meandering fashion it takes. I love how it has made me think and reevaluate thus far, and I think both of those are essential as I continue to evolve into the very best mother I can possibly be.


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## 3 little birds (Nov 19, 2001)

Wow! Thank you JeannetteL for that post. Those are wonderful ideas. I am going to try them out tomorrow. I have been looking for something to do when the words just aren't heard.


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

Regarding the television:
Good for you for turning it off. I decided yesterday that my children would no longer be watching TV on a regular basis during the day. Even programs like The Wiggles (which I love too!) because then it escalates into "We wanna watch just one more show...." and that would create a battle. I will pop a video in if I have an important phone call to make (like to the insurance company) but I'll try to avoid that too.

I can't control that my husband lets them watch TV. But I can control it when they are with me.

Good luck to you.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

PM, yes, yes, and YES.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

JeannetteL: wow....























Thank you for that amazing post. I have copied it and saved it in my personal files to read over again. What wonderful ideas, and an inspiring description of your discipline philosophy!

OneCatholicMommy: let us know how it goes. DH and I have talked about it, but finally made the decision. We are moving at the end of the month, and will not be hooking up cable in our new apartment. I feel DD watches too much TV. Mostly it's on as background, a bad habit even I fall into. I am actually really looking forward to the experiment. I think I'll be listening to more music and radio, which I love but never seem to get around to doing! I'm a bit fearful (I've always had TV), but remind myself that I don't think I've sat down to watch a show I really enjoy since the Sopranos ended, lol. I'm actually quite excited about it, though I have a feeling DD is going to be demanding "NOGGIN!!" for a while (hopefully the new setting will aid in her not expecting the routine to continue).


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## mommabear (Mar 5, 2002)

JeannetteL, that is such a beautiful post -- thank you so much. Your post really illustrates to me how important it is to parent consciously and be wide awake to the unique individual that is each child. Bravo!


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## princessalex (May 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JeanetteL*
I actually want my children to question authority. Yes, even mine.

What a beautiful post, Jeanette! So amazingly inspiring!









This statement meant the most to me, though. I wholeheartedly agree.

Thank you,
namaste,
alex
phoenix, az


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## Annais (Jul 26, 2002)

:
This is an amazing thread. It's taken me 4 days to get through, but well worth it! I want to print it out!

DD will be one in 2 days, so I thought I'd start thinking about this fairly early so I can be consistent. I was just wondering, it seems like this comes so naturally to many of you, where as I think I'll need to be consciously thinking about it every time, KWIM? At least for awhile..

For instance, dd loves to play in the dogs' water bowl. My first instinct is to say no and redirect her. Why? Who knows?! After reading this thread, I thought, so she gets wet, so she makes a mess, who cares?
Thanks for reading, and thanks for this thread!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Jeanette, I wholeheartedly agree with your post. A book that I love helped me realize that if I coerce DD into doing things, I'm setting her up to be a victim in the future . . . if I can "get" her to do things, then that means other people will be able to, too . . .which is a scary thought!


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Jeanette, LOVED your post. Thanks for taking the time to compose it.

Annais, I think the majority of the moms here would say that GD is a whole lot of work. The more you do it, though, the easier it becomes. Turning off those default non-GD reactions can be very challenging, but with time and consistency, those defaults can be rewritten. It does get easier. It really is, for me anyway, a mindset. And it is very much dependent upon my being able to stay in the moment. For instance, one of my challenges is to not react negatively to something just because there have been a series of challenges in a row. I consider myself a work in progress but it's something I focus on every single day.

I must say that some of the concepts in Jeanette's post really hit home with me right now because I now have a child who is "out in the world" in school. Having a child who respects others but who also has enough respect for herself to stand up for herself (and even question authority to do so!) makes all of the challenges of GD worth every moment. I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to me that my very reserved 5-yr-old has been brave enough in these last two weeks to question some classroom policies (and had a seating arrangement changed to her benefit because she was willing to approach her teacher) and end some bullying that was happening to her. And on the other end of the spectrum, she spent part of last week trying to comfort another little girl on the playground because the little girl was obviously sad and my dd wanted to help her.

Having been raised in a rather authoritarian home myself, I don't think I would have been as assertive as my dd is at that age. I know I allowed myself to be bullied in school because I didn't have the mechanisms in place to handle the situation. GD is SO much more than just not hitting your kids. It is a mindset, an atmosphere of mutual respect and love, that pervades every interaction between family members. And it is worth every single second of hard work.


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

Thank you all SO much for your kind words. At this particular juncture in my life, and with all that transpired with my MIL I find myself needing much reassurance, and this entire thread has proved brilliant in that regard. Yes, I am doing this for a reason, a darn good reason - and if I stick to my guns and not listen to the naysayers around me, it will pay off a million times over.

So, because the universe loves irony, the last two days (since I typed my post) have been very tantrum-y days. Yesterday she had the first real meltdown she has had in weeks and weeks - and because this thread was so much on my mind, I think I was able to do a much better job than ever in allowing her to feel the full extent of her emotions, and supporting her through them as best as I could. I know I took much of the advice and words of widsom here to heart, and it really came through in how much more comfortable I was in validating her feelings. I had been working on that before, but somehow it just felt more authentic and natural yesterday, and I have you all to thank.

The reason for her first upset - her dress sandals didn't fit anymore (she hasn't worn them all summer) and she was truly upset and devestated about it (yes, i do also think she was tired, and I've been packing to go home so she's probably somewhat anxious about the changes to come - so it wasn't all about the shoes). At one point she was saying "Ow, Ow, Ow". and i asked "What hurts you, Bella?"

She replied "My feelings, Mommy. My feelings hurt because my feet got too big for my shoes".









Quote:

GD is SO much more than just not hitting your kids. It is a mindset, an atmosphere mutual respect and love, that pervades every interaction between family members. And it is worth every single second of hard work.
Brilliant!! That was beautiful - actually a good enough motto that when I get home I am going to print it out and post in on my fridge. Thank you for those wise, wise words.

Keep it coming mamas, right now I feel about ten feet tall...bouyed by all the wisdom and beauty and love that comes from each of you mothers so devoted to your children that you give the way you parent so much thought and research and consideration.

Bravo to all of us!
Jeanette


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Another big thank you for your post Jeanette... I loved your take on prevention, rather than just damage control. And it actually got me thinking that perhaps the term "gentle discipline" is not accurate, because in my mind, discipline is a reactionary thing, where as gentle discipline is more of a parenting approach that one does *all* the time, not just when dd is in the water bowl (annais- mine loves to play in the water too, and sometimes i let her, and sometimes i put it up on the counter. She often slips in the water so it becomes a hazard). So then i think, its' more of a parenting style. hmmmm, isn't it AP? but then, as we've seen, there are many people who consider themselves AP but dont' necessarily use what we understand GD to be, so










but, I think my point is exactly what you illustrated, Jeanette, that there is alot to GD beyond just reacting in the moment to a temper tantrum, food battle, etc...


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Great post, Jeanette! It sounds like you are doing very well in getting Bella to recognize her feelings--she still has tantrums because, well, sometimes those feelings are so big that a tantrum is the only way to get them out. Heck, I'm a grownup, and I still have occasional emotional states that CANNOT be worked thru without an extended period of sobbing--it's like the feelings are knotted up inside my head, and the ONLY way to get rid of them is to melt them and blow them out my nose! 

The part about a physical break reminds me of a strategy my mom used to use on my brother: As he was getting out of control (either mad or rowdy) she would say firmly, "I think YOU need to go run around the house five times!" She would not quibble about whether he needed shoes or a jacket; he could put on whatever he chose, or not (once he took OFF all his clothes, to the horror of passing missionaries who decided our house was a lost cause!







), and if he got wet or cold that could be dealt with when he came back, providing further diversion. It worked very well. Eventually he started deciding for himself that it was the appropriate thing to do, and at least once when he had a friend over and they were getting on each other's nerves, he said, "I think WE need to go run around the house five times!" and they ran in opposite directions, making silly faces every time they met, until they were both laughing and panting and the original quarrel was forgotten.


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

EnviroBecca,
that is brilliant - so much better than sending a kid to his room for expressing his emotions. And what a great way to teach kids exactly how much emotional release we can get from physical exercise! I'm going to have to make a mental note of that for next time.

More tantrums the last few days, but keeping this thread in mind I am staying the course, recognizing and validating her feelings and helping her see I realize those feelings are strong, while still expressing how difficult it is for me to "work" with her when she's in that state, and talking about things we can do to help make us feel better when we experience strong emotions. It has been a great exercise in practicing what I preach and being mindful of the values I wrote about in my first post. Its not easy, but it feels right. I tell you, she's my teacher - not the other way around!

The past few times I've also tried to put the ball back in her court, instead of directing her to do something to help her calm down - I've asked..."What do you think you could do to make yourself feel calmer so we can go outside/eat lunch/etc?" My sister and I gave a few suggestions and left it at that. Seems to be working for today at least!









Jeanette


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## OneCatholicMommy (Jan 21, 2002)

Piglet68, well, it went well for a while, then last week we were all pretty sick so all bets were off! But I'm proud that we have cut down on TV during the day ...for the most part NO tv during the day.


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## gonebatty (Feb 20, 2005)

hello. i have been a nanny for years. i have raised several children from







6 months old till kindergarten age. they all throw fits. what i have observed in 24 years, is that you CAN NOT GIVE IN! do not make food part of a treat. if she wont comply, she doesnt deserve a treat. stop with that right away. i have left many baskets full at super markets because i would not tolorate a fit. i just leave the cart, take the child and thats it. i tell them if they cant behave like a big girl/boy, then they are not old enough to go into the store with mommy/nanny kelly, and mean it! DONT TAKE her to the store next time. ask a neighbor to watch her for a few minutes. crying isnt going to hurt her, it does get bothersome but once you have done it, it gets easier and easier. my last job was caring for twin girls who's parents thought that love was equivilent to money. the more money and gifts they gave their girls , the harder my job was to take care of them properly because their parents always changed the rules, and never followed through on ANY punishment because they couldnt stand the crying. i quit my job after 2 1/2 years. it wont hurt her to say no and follow though on it! it may be hard now, but it will be harder when she is 12 if you dont help her correct her actions. i tell my kids" everyone is allowed to get mad, it is what you do with that anger that counts". good luck.
ps. yes, i have a very opinionated mind! no offense inteneded to anyone !


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Hey- haven't read everything here, but I have a dd the same age and also very opinionated. Here's what I've been working on that's worked.

Limit TV- we don't have a daily quota really, but if dd watches more than 1 hour at a time she gets nutty. I turn it off at the end of a show to be respectful. The longer she watches, the bigger the struggle.

Prevent tantrums- changing activities, leaving a crowded place, getting a snack, enlisting her agreement before activities. All these help prevent blowouts. Plus, planning less stuff during the day and giving her more time for stransitions.

Always Hug a tantrum- My dd's tantrums are never seldom about manipulating me, but more about her emotional state spiralng out of control. I try to get past the trantrumy "I want this or that" to what is really bothering dd. She's too young to understand deep breaths, but I hold her untill she calms down. Otherwise I help her go to sleep, or leave a tantrum inducing situation.

CHOSE YOUR BATTLES! I can't say this enough. The only time I really care hat dd wears is when she goes to preschool, and even then I'm very lax. If she wants to eat a tofutie cutie before her eggs and toast, so be it!

A word about "spoiling." I have parents who handed me "stuff" when I cried, then spanked me if I was ungrateful. They left me with nannies or babysitters all the time and alone in my crib at night. Maybe I seemed spoiled, because I learned to accept "things" in place of love.

Kids always look spoiled when they are crying, holding some new toy they just whined to get, crying because the bow isn't tied the right way or because it's not blue. What is important to remember is that this child is not getting what they need right then. What they need is love and understadning, and money can't pay for that.

Gotta run, hope this isn't too redundant!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quick note-

It's hard to know what the tantrum is about- that is why hard and fast rules don't apply.

Some tantrums really are because something is important to the child. In those cases, i have to think through how firm my position really is. Sometimes I change my stance because I didn't realise how strongly dd felt. I don't see that as giving in.

Some tantrums are thing related, but not about the thing at all. We see this with "I want the red, no the blue, NO the OTHER BLUE! NO! THE BLUE BUT THE OTHER WAY. THE AOTHER WAY!!!!!!!" Tantrums. These arc a cry for help.

Some are simply about being overwhelmed and have nothing to do with a thing. Like my dd and I went for a bagel and she started crying because she said she "wasn't hungry". The usually calm place was crowded and we'd had a busy morning. This is when we have to be the parent. I said "Are you scared of all the people? Do you want to get out food to go." The answer was yes. She wasn;'t being tricky or manipulative or lying, she just neeed me to help her interpret her feelings.

Anyway- tantrums are hard. The faster we get over the feeling that they are somehow about us the better off we are I think.

By again.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

mommyofshmoo, ITA!!!!


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