# PSA: The importance of a 5-point harness



## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Everyone needs to watch this short 3 1/2 minute video on the importance of using a 5-point harness car seat. It is a tear jerker, but it's very important.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I can't stop crying and I have so many questions about our carseat situation I'm not really sure where to begin. I need to quell the tears first.


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## lovemysunshine (Jul 13, 2005)

:

RIP poor Kyle.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

That was heartbreaking. My son is in a 5-point harness, though we have Radian Sunkids.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

I was hoping htere was a dialogue about this on here.
First of all, allow me to say I am depeply and profoundly sad for this family's loss.
However, I hate seeing this cycle of fear. If the boy had died because he had somehow flown out of his three point harness, then the argument would be good. But, that wasn't the case. We cannot predict every possible danger. I don't think the answer is for every family to run out and buy a $250 car seat. He died because the seat belt was faulty. I think it makes more sense to be lobbying for stronger seat belts. Also, many cars, especially older cars, do not have tehters, and cannot be fitted. And, what about older kids? Are there lives less precious?
I am not doing a very good job of articulating this, but we cannot raise our children in a bubble. Seat belt failure is very rare.
I can understand the mom's concern and message. But if this makes every person who reads it run out and buy the super expensive car seat, that is where precautions turn into hysteria.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I agree to a point. People do need to realize that children should stay in 5-point harnesses as long as possible. They are simply just so much safer. I don't see why this video sending people to buy a carseat to fit their child is a bad thing. I don't think people need to be in fear constantly, but I do think that we should do everything we can to ensure our childrens safety in the car.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

I like five point harnesses for kids _and_ for adults. Yet five point harnesses aren't DOT approved as regular seatbelts (the excuse seems to be that it encourages racing). So are they safer or not? If five point is the way to go (no matter the cost) why aren't our seatbelts designed that way?


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Really dumb question, I'm not very knowledgeable about car seats.







My dd is in a Britax Boulevard. That's a 5 point harness, right? And what other types of harnesses are there?

ETA: How are you doing, Kathryn? I've been wondering about you. I'm sure you're extremely busy.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

My ds1, 4.5, rides in a Britax Husky.

I had been struggling to find the right gift for my best friend's 32nd birthday. After watching this video, I ordered her a Britax Regent for her 3 year old 40lb dd who has been riding in a booster for a year. She was thrilled!


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

I have the Britax Regent and I can't stand it. I can't get it tight enough on ds's shoulders.
I should have found a way to get the Boulevard instead.
If I could miraculously get a Boulevard, I would donate the Regent to someone!


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## springbabes (Aug 23, 2003)

We actually had a seatbelt fail in our minivan. My 225 lb BIL was sitting in the middle row and I stopped fast. The seatbelt came unbolted from the floor! I really don't feel as safe as I used to. I had the dealer thoroughly check the other seatbelts and he assured me he'd never seen the problem before, but I wonder.. .


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
I was hoping htere was a dialogue about this on here.
First of all, allow me to say I am depeply and profoundly sad for this family's loss.
However, I hate seeing this cycle of fear. If the boy had died because he had somehow flown out of his three point harness, then the argument would be good. But, that wasn't the case. We cannot predict every possible danger. I don't think the answer is for every family to run out and buy a $250 car seat. He died because the seat belt was faulty. I think it makes more sense to be lobbying for stronger seat belts. Also, many cars, especially older cars, do not have tehters, and cannot be fitted. And, what about older kids? Are there lives less precious?
I am not doing a very good job of articulating this, but we cannot raise our children in a bubble. Seat belt failure is very rare.
I can understand the mom's concern and message. But if this makes every person who reads it run out and buy the super expensive car seat, that is where precautions turn into hysteria.

Yes it is true that it was the seatbelt that failed, BUT if the child had been in a 5 point seat that was installed with a faulty seatbelt what are the chances that the child(while still buckled into the seat) would have been thrown from the car? We do not know for sure, but I would say its logical that the chance of the child and attached car seat being completely thrown out of the car would have been lower. Also if the child had been thrown out of the car even buckled into the seat, they would have had a shell protecting them when they landed.

All of that said, I hope this encourages people to really think about their seats and stop putting children in boosters before they should be. I also hope it gets people paying attention tho how their seats are installed... if you use a seat belt, tether your seat to the top anchor! If you do not have a top anchor, take your car to a dealer and have one installed! (many many dealers will do it for FREE).

This isnt about people buying a Britax -- there are now many higher weight harnessing seats out there that are more affordable. This is about changing the mindset that just because our child can sit in a booster because they hit the minimum weight, doesn't mean they should. Sometimes it seems like it is this contest, who's child is sitting in a booster first.... whose child is forward facing first.... (not talking about this forum, but IRL and other boards I have been to). Why do we do this? Why do we look at car seat changes as some sort of mile stone?

This is also about lowering the number of seats that are incorrectly installed or not installed safe enough. There are other countries where it is mandatory that all seats be installed with the top tether anchor.... why is that not true for this country? That way, regardless of if you have latch or a seatbelt there is a back up system in place?


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

It is all about education. The point of the matter is this: if you have the information easily accessbile, or a place to go for correct information, it is only then do you have the chance to make an INFORMED and educated decision. That I believe is the moral of this Texas families story. She didn't know. And many more still don't know either. Her baby and your baby is the reason why we (CPS techs and instructors) do what we do. The video specifically says a Regent/Husky......and right now that is still the only CRS that uses a 5 pt harness to 80 pounds (with the exception of one special needs seat). Others around 55-65 pounds have come out recently on the market. So no, it's not only Britax any longer, that harnesses to higher weight limits....other manufacturers are finally stepping up to the plate. Thank God.
Peace.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## ryansmom02 (Jan 8, 2003)

WOW that was so sad he was 2 days older then my DS.... Who does sit in a britax regent...

RIP KYLE


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I think the message was vaild, though you don't need to buy the Britax. While they are hard to find, there are other 5-point harness carseats for toddlers. People seem to think I'm paranoid (ie. my sister, a co-worker), because the boxes that the boosters come in say "40lbs+."


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
I was hoping htere was a dialogue about this on here.
First of all, allow me to say I am depeply and profoundly sad for this family's loss.
However, I hate seeing this cycle of fear. If the boy had died because he had somehow flown out of his three point harness, then the argument would be good. But, that wasn't the case. We cannot predict every possible danger. I don't think the answer is for every family to run out and buy a $250 car seat. He died because the seat belt was faulty. I think it makes more sense to be lobbying for stronger seat belts. Also, many cars, especially older cars, do not have tehters, and cannot be fitted. And, what about older kids? Are there lives less precious?
I am not doing a very good job of articulating this, but we cannot raise our children in a bubble. Seat belt failure is very rare.
I can understand the mom's concern and message. But if this makes every person who reads it run out and buy the super expensive car seat, that is where precautions turn into hysteria.


Maybe they _are_ out there lobbying for stronger seatbelts but in the mean time why not give other people this information, even if it's only ONE child (since you said seatbelts don't fail very often) who is saved. I for one am VERY glad to have the information. I have a Britax and I do not tether it, I will be doing that tonight. Call me naive but I had no clue that seatbelts EVER failed. I fail to see how it is giving way to hysteria by ensuring your children are as safe as possible in the car, no we can't predict every possible danger and we can't prevent every accident but I am going to do my very best to protect my kids.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Almost one year ago to the day, I lost a dear and adorable daycare child. She was in the exact carseat that Kyle was in when he was killed. She was riding in a van, and her seatbelt failed. Actually the entire van's third row seat came unlatched from the floor, causing the seatbelt to unlatch. There were four other kids in the car. Her sister was injured, and her brother, Mother and oldest sister walked away without a scratch.

It was a terrible morning, and I still miss her.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

to me, it is akin to stranger danger. Thousands and thousands of children are adequately protected by car seats with boosters. So, I just don't think the fear is justified. If you have a carseat like this and have the tethering ability, then by all means, you should use it. If you don't have one and your child is in a booster seat and is the right size and you are using it correctly, then the chances of the seat belt failing is so very small that I just don't see how people would feel justified in going out and buying a new carseat. I think that car seat education is tremendously important, I really do. I just think that the chances of my child being killed because the seatbelt became dislodged are about as small as my child being hit by lightning.
I think that the internet does so very much, but it does a really great job of breeding fear, because it makes the world seem smaller and the risks seem greater.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Yes, it might be like your child getting struck by lightning, but don't you have your kids come inside or not stand under trees during a big thunderstorm because of the risk, as small as it may be?


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *springbabes* 
We actually had a seatbelt fail in our minivan. My 225 lb BIL was sitting in the middle row and I stopped fast. The seatbelt came unbolted from the floor! I really don't feel as safe as I used to. I had the dealer thoroughly check the other seatbelts and he assured me he'd never seen the problem before, but I wonder.. .

What kind of van? Please tell me...we're shopping for vans......


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

I think there are other concerns about booster seats than just seatbelt failure.

In a booster, if a child puts the seatbelt over their shoulder or falls asleep or turns around in their seat--they aren't going to be properly protected by the seatbelt. For them to be properly protected, they need to be awake, facing forward and the lap and shoulder parts of the belt in the right position.

If they are in a 5-point harness there is no way (short of them unbuckling themselves) that they would not be protected by the harness.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Lucky One* 
I think there are other concerns about booster seats than just seatbelt failure.

In a booster, if a child puts the seatbelt over their shoulder or falls asleep or turns around in their seat--they aren't going to be properly protected by the seatbelt. For them to be properly protected, they need to be awake, facing forward and the lap and shoulder parts of the belt in the right position.

If they are in a 5-point harness there is no way (short of them unbuckling themselves) that they would not be protected by the harness.

so true.... this is one of the main reasons we bought a regent for older DD. She was 5 but still was way too fidgety for the booster seat.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch* 
What kind of van? Please tell me...we're shopping for vans......

I don't know about the others, but, my daycare girl was in a Ford Windstar.

BUT, this was a freak and horrible incident. Nobody knows why the seat came up from the floorboard. It was a used vehicle, and it is possible that it had been taken out to haul things and not put back correctly. Only the right side of the seat came up from the van floor. So, the seatbelt was not enough to keep the child in her the seat belt. She AND the booster seat flew out of the van.

I wouldn't just buy a van based on our stories. There must be a consumer reports on this.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I wouldn't just buy a van based on our stories. There must be a consumer reports on this.

There is, and we have researched. I wanted to make sure it wasn't one of the top rated CR ones.


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn* 
Yes, it might be like your child getting struck by lightning, but don't you have your kids come inside or not stand under trees during a big thunderstorm because of the risk, as small as it may be?

Yep, I bring them inside, but I don't make them wear insluated suits once they are inside.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

We just got the Regent for our 3 year old a few days ago. My family thinks I am ridiculous getting such a gigantic carseat (it woudl practically fit an adult) and dh tried to talk me into a booster seat but I am so glad we got the Regent. We don't have the LATCH system in the last row of our van for forward facing seats. I thought it was weird that when you use the seatbelt to secure the Regent it wraps around several times on one side and again on the other. Is that incase of seatbelt failure it will still be somewhat secure? Does anyone know what I am talking about? It's hard to describe.

To the poster that said some dealers will install a tether for free-can I just go to any dealership? We didn't get our van from a dealership. Thanks, Kathryn, for posting this!


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gemelos* 

To the poster that said some dealers will install a tether for free-can I just go to any dealership? We didn't get our van from a dealership.

Yes. I say dealership because when you call your vehicle manufacturer CS department, they will likely just refer you to the closest dealership to have the actual work done. So if you've got a Chevy, you'd call a Chevrolet dealership etc. etc. You do not have to have purchased the car from THAT or A dealership to have a tether put in. Make sense?

DC


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
Yep, I bring them inside, but I don't make them wear insluated suits once they are inside.

Wow. I hardly think that buying a quality carseat falls into the realm of ridicules, as your metaphor seems to imply.


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## springbabes (Aug 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch* 
What kind of van? Please tell me...we're shopping for vans......

2000 Toyota Sienna, which I believe had the highest saftey rating of minivans that year







: .


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Wow. I hardly think that buying a quality carseat falls into the realm of ridicules, as your metaphor seems to imply.

No, I am not talking about having a quality car seat. I am talking about having a quality car seat, seeing this video, dumping the quality car seat you do have in order to buy a different one.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
No, I am not talking about having a quality car seat. I am talking about having a quality car seat, seeing this video, dumping the quality car seat you do have in order to buy a different one.

Actually it doesn't say that. It says to keep children in a 5 pt. harness until 80 lbs. Not "dump your current car seat for a new one."


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *springbabes* 
2000 Toyota Sienna, which I believe had the highest saftey rating of minivans that year







: .

Great. That's the one we're looking at getting (2007 model). Geez, it scares me to think, well hopefully they've improved after 7 years...but I don't trust the automotive industry as far as I can throw them.







Ugh. I should never have seen the movie "Class Action." Ever since I saw that movie and having talked to mothers who've lost children in similar circumstances (known defect that automotive co. didn't fix 'cause of cost...), I just don't trust the automotive industry AT ALL.


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:

Yes. I say dealership because when you call your vehicle manufacturer CS department, they will likely just refer you to the closest dealership to have the actual work done. So if you've got a Chevy, you'd call a Chevrolet dealership etc. etc. You do not have to have purchased the car from THAT or A dealership to have a tether put in. Make sense?
Thanks!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
No, I am not talking about having a quality car seat. I am talking about having a quality car seat, seeing this video, dumping the quality car seat you do have in order to buy a different one.

If your current quality carseat is age and weight-inappropriate, then you ABSOLUTELY should get a different one.
What is your point in this thread? That nothing is 100% safe so we shouldn't bother? Or that slop and laziness on our kids' car safety is good enough?


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

i think i understand boysrus' point.
i'd also like to add that i haven't seen a single carseat rated for over 40 lbs outside the britax. we CANNOT afford two $250. that is just not fesible. that's nearly an entire month's rent for our family. we purchased two evenflo triumph 5 for more money than we could afford and they were still over $100 cheaper than the britax. we also do not have a car with the latch system. again, we can't afford it. i was driving a '92 subaru before #2 when my parents gave me their '95 camry. there is no way for us to get a car that was built after 2001 (when all cars became required to have the latch system).
i think the fight needs to come in that ALL children deserve the same protection. right now, theoretically, if a britax and a latch-equipped car are neccessary for a safe child, the poor children are the ones left unsafe. how is that fair? shouldn't we be demanding ALL carseat manufacturers make seats that are rated up to 80 lb? shouldn't we be demanding car manufacturers be required to upgrade older cars to latch?


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *witchbaby* 
i think i understand boysrus' point.
i'd also like to add that i haven't seen a single carseat rated for over 40 lbs outside the britax. we CANNOT afford two $250. that is just not fesible. that's nearly an entire month's rent for our family. we purchased two evenflo triumph 5 for more money than we could afford and they were still over $100 cheaper than the britax. we also do not have a car with the latch system. again, we can't afford it. i was driving a '92 subaru before #2 when my parents gave me their '95 camry. there is no way for us to get a car that was built after 2001 (when all cars became required to have the latch system).
i think the fight needs to come in that ALL children deserve the same protection. right now, theoretically, if a britax and a latch-equipped car are neccessary for a safe child, the poor children are the ones left unsafe. how is that fair? shouldn't we be demanding ALL carseat manufacturers make seats that are rated up to 80 lb? shouldn't we be demanding car manufacturers be required to upgrade older cars to latch?


There actually is a seat that harnesses over 40lbs. outside of the britax.

http://www.showeryourbaby.com/coap65cocars.html

It also includes a tether.

I DO agree that all children deserve the same protection, but until that happens why not educate those who can afford to drop the money on a new seat for their child who may be using a booster when they still need a 5 pt. harness.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82* 
If your current quality carseat is age and weight-inappropriate, then you ABSOLUTELY should get a different one.
What is your point in this thread? That nothing is 100% safe so we shouldn't bother? Or that slop and laziness on our kids' car safety is good enough?


Thank You! I totally agree.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

There are quite a few seats out that harness higher than 40lbs and cost considerably less.

Besides britax there is:
Cosco Apex ($130 at babies r us)
Cosco Eddie Baugher comfort high back booster (http://www.djgusa.com/product.asp?productID=2604)
Fisher Price Safe Voyage (madey by Britax and about $170 I think)
Sunshine Radian

Also, its perfectly safe to use your car seat with the seat belts (I do) but you need to have the top of the seat tethered so you have a back up system. Like many of us have said previously in the thread, call the dealer (the one who makes your car) and ask about having tethers installed ... they often will do it for free.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

This is so sad but important info.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama* 
There are quite a few seats out that harness higher than 40lbs and cost considerably less.

Besides britax there is:
Cosco Apex ($130 at babies r us)
Cosco Eddie Baugher comfort high back booster (http://www.djgusa.com/product.asp?productID=2604)
Fisher Price Safe Voyage (madey by Britax and about $170 I think)
Sunshine Radian



Does anyone use any of the seats listed above? How heavy are they and what do you think of them? DS is 42lb and 42 inches tall.

Thanks!


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I definitely agree that 5-pt harnesses are much safer than boosters. However, I believe LATCH is only good for up to 40 pounds. After that, you're supposed to secure the seat with the seat belts... which wouldn't fix the problem of a faulty seatbelt. Although, a tether and the seat itself would offer more protection in case of a seatbelt failure.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moochie Mamma* 
Does anyone use any of the seats listed above? How heavy are they and what do you think of them? DS is 42lb and 42 inches tall.

Thanks!

We have the Radian one. After a car accident we had to get rid of our Britax Wizard and they didn't make that exact one anymore and the lady at the store that sells both brands swore up and down that if she still had small kids she'd get the Radian over the Britax anyday. (how's that for a run-on sentence?)

http://www.amazon.com/Sunshine-Kids-...=baby-products

As for my opinion I love it over the Britax b/c the bottom of the seat is lower. DD's legs don't fall asleep like they did in the Britax and the seat is easy to get on and off an airplane and travel with. It also makes it much easier for dd to get in and out of. It's convertible although we didn't need it to be. And cheaper than Britax. At least for now.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

If a child has to stay in a 5 point till they are 80+lbs that would be crazy IMO.

That means I would have been an adult sitting in a booster







:

There needs to be a better gage of when to have a child sitting in a 5 point. There are many skinny/thin people out in this world.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn* 
Yes, it might be like your child getting struck by lightning, but don't you have your kids come inside or not stand under trees during a big thunderstorm because of the risk, as small as it may be?

Good gravy, no. That would be crazy. Being out while it's raining/storming (unless it's really windy and/or scary) is one of the greatest things ever.

I would think most parents would keep their kids inside only if it's really really lightening-y, or windy enough to be dangerous. I can't imagine keeping my child inside every time there's a storm, just because he could be struck by lightning!









But, I live in Wichita, Kansas... maybe that's why. I would have to keep him inside 40% of the year.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I think I read that latch is tested for a weight of up to 65 lbs for CHILD AND CARSEAT.... so it depends how heavy your carseat is and when you should switch to the seat belt. Check your manual to be sure









ETA -this link with maxium latch limits based on car model , I do not know how accurate it is, but thought I would post it:
http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf

also found this site which has TONS of info:
http://www.thecarseatlady.com/car_se...g_seats_7.html


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momto l&a* 
If a child has to stay in a 5 point till they are 80+lbs that would be crazy IMO.

That means I would have been an adult sitting in a booster







:

There needs to be a better gage of when to have a child sitting in a 5 point. There are many skinny/thin people out in this world.


I WISH adults had five point harnesses. I would use it in a heartbeat.


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## Venicewebs (Nov 2, 2006)

I have been in contact with the ****** family and with their permission I have dedicated the following page to the memory of their son:

http://www.wheredidrecessgo.com/childrens-safety.html

As a result I did go out and buy (2) 5 point harness boosters from ToysRUs for 69.00 each. They are rated up to 100lbs and have a double latching back up system that latches to the the mounts between the back of the seats and the couch as well as being Teathered and also Lap Belted.

I must say, after looking back on the normal booster seat I have VS the ones I just PROPERLY INSTALLED I only had a level of safety of about 10% on the old ones as opposed to at least a 99% level of safety now.

These things are pretty much MOUNTED into my SUV and It sort of reminds me of a Race Car Drivers Seat. I feel WAY WAY MORE SECURE NOW. You can actually see and feel the STURDY DIFFERENCE.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I think it's good b/c most people I know are totally ignorant about the importance of rear-facing and five-point harnesses and how much safer they are. So many act like it's silly, for babies or something.

So, if seatbelts can come undone, does this mean that latch is safer?


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn* 
I agree to a point. People do need to realize that children should stay in 5-point harnesses as long as possible. They are simply just so much safer. I don't see why this video sending people to buy a carseat to fit their child is a bad thing. I don't think people need to be in fear constantly, but I do think that we should do everything we can to ensure our childrens safety in the car.

Kathyrn, that was very well put. I'm so glad you posted this. How are your triplets?

I bought Regents for both of our daughters and figured out how to get the best deals and so forth. Happily, I sold my Marathons for $125 each and applied that towards the cost.

I suggest going to the http://www.car-seat.org forums to find deals on car seats and to get help with your specific car situation (such as, will a Regent fit). There are a few threads about these videos there.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venicewebs* 
I have been in contact with the ****** family and with their permission I have dedicated the following page to the memory of their son:

http://www.wheredidrecessgo.com/childrens-safety.html

As a result I did go out and buy (2) 5 point harness boosters from ToysRUs for 69.00 each. They are rated up to 100lbs and have a double latching back up system that latches to the the mounts between the back of the seats and the couch as well as being Teathered and also Lap Belted.

I must say, after looking back on the normal booster seat I have VS the ones I just PROPERLY INSTALLED I only had a level of safety of about 10% on the old ones as opposed to at least a 99% level of safety now.

These things are pretty much MOUNTED into my SUV and It sort of
reminds me of a Race Car Drivers Seat. I feel WAY WAY MORE SECURE NOW. You can actually see and feel the STURDY DIFFERENCE.


Veniceweb- Which seat is that?? I didn't know any 5 pt. harnesses went up that high!


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## Venicewebs (Nov 2, 2006)

I researched this one like crazy and I feel I made a fantastic decision on this one and after mounting them in, THEY ARE TOUGH.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...#prod_prodinfo


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venicewebs* 
I researched this one like crazy and I feel I made a fantastic decision on this one and after mounting them in, THEY ARE TOUGH.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...#prod_prodinfo

that seat only harnesses to 40lbs and then you switch it to a seatbelt booster.. just FYI









Quote:

Forward-facing with harness: approx. 22-40 lbs. Belt-positioning booster: approx. 30-100 lbs. and up to approx. 52


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## Venicewebs (Nov 2, 2006)

you are correct Patchy, I thought I used the term BOOSTER maybe I mis-spoke, I'll scroll back and see.


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## mama4gals (Nov 15, 2003)

Butting in here...I've been reading and reading, and feeling more panicky as I go. My dd is 5, about 65 lbs, and about 48 inches tall. I still use the 5 pt harness on her booster seat, even though I know she's over the weight limit. We do have it tethered in and seatbelted. Is there ANY carseat w/ a 5 pt harness that goes over 65 lbs? I really can't afford one, but I really don't want her in just a seatbelt. I have googled til my head is floogled, and they only seem to sell seats that use the lap belt over 65 lbs. I surely can't be the only mother w/ a big child who still needs a car seat.

Thanks,

Liz


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

I saw this video the other day and it scared the crap out of me! I had no idea that boosters could be so unsafe. I showed it to my parents and they went out the next day and bought my two youngest Britax Marathons, which should fit them up to 65 pounds. We did have an Evenflo something or other, which potentially has latch, but was so friggin hard to use we could never get the latch to work.

FYI, you can only use the latch up to 48 pounds though. At least that's what the Britax manual says.

We put my 7yo in a booster. He wasn't in a carseat before and now he is and I have that video to thank. So, I don't think it's overzealous at all. I thank it for *potentially saving my children's lives*


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama4gals* 
Butting in here...I've been reading and reading, and feeling more panicky as I go. My dd is 5, about 65 lbs, and about 48 inches tall. I still use the 5 pt harness on her booster seat, even though I know she's over the weight limit. We do have it tethered in and seatbelted. Is there ANY carseat w/ a 5 pt harness that goes over 65 lbs? I really can't afford one, but I really don't want her in just a seatbelt. I have googled til my head is floogled, and they only seem to sell seats that use the lap belt over 65 lbs. I surely can't be the only mother w/ a big child who still needs a car seat.

Thanks,

Liz

Yes, the Regent. My five year old daughter is 46 pounds and 44 inches tall. She fits well in her Regent. My three year old daughter has a very different build. She's about 40 pounds and 40 inches tall, and she fits well in her Regent.

Instead of googling, I suggest going straight to the forums for those obsessed with car seats and tell them your car, your budget, etc. http://www.car-seat.org. There are techs who respond quickly. I almost bought a booster until they persuaded me to buy a Regent instead.


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## mama4gals (Nov 15, 2003)

Thank you! I took your advice and registered there, and posted a thread. I'll look into the Regent now.

Liz


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## Kama82 (Mar 12, 2006)

That video was absolutely heartbreaking. I do not see how buying a safer car seat for your child can possibly be a bad thing. No, we can't keep our children in a bubble but isn't it our job as parents to protect them as much as possible? I still have a few years before we have to worry about this. In light of this video I will be putting a few dollars a month into savings so that I can afford to buy her a seat that harnesses to a higher weight when the time comes.
I really don't see how this compares to having your child "live in a bubble" in any way. Living in a bubble implies giving up important life experiences in order to be marginally safer. I dont see how sitting in a belt positioning booster at 3 years old is an important life experience.


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## 3rosebuds (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama4gals* 
Is there ANY carseat w/ a 5 pt harness that goes over 65 lbs?

Yep, the Britax Regent & also the Radian makes a seat that harnesses up to 80 lbs. now (scroll down on that page to see). Both are quite expensive, though.

We have one of the Radians that goes up to 65 lbs. for DS3 & I think I'll get another for DS2 (who is about 35 lbs. and currently in a seat that goes up to 40 lbs). They're really great seats.


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

I'm one of the least "over-protective" mamas I know. My kids swam in water over their heads without an adult in the pool at 3. They climb trees, play in steams, go out in sea kayaks and walk to the neighbors by themselves.

But, the two older ones sit in Huskys and the 18 month old is still facing backward. Afterall, driving is the most dangerous thing we do.


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisalou* 

http://www.amazon.com/Sunshine-Kids-...=baby-products

As for my opinion I love it over the Britax b/c the bottom of the seat is lower. DD's legs don't fall asleep like they did in the Britax and the seat is easy to get on and off an airplane and travel with. It also makes it much easier for dd to get in and out of. It's convertible although we didn't need it to be. And cheaper than Britax. At least for now.









:

I love our Radians. They were $50 cheaper each than the Britax that goes to 65 lbs, the girls are very comfortable, I can get them in tight quickly which is important since I use my mom's car. I haven't used them rear facing (baby is still RF but in the evenflo) but I have been very happy with them FF and I am thinking of turning the girls back around if they will let me (they are only 24 & 28lbs)


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

I'm calling our local Chevy place tomorrow to see about tethers. We have a Chevy Blazer ('96) so I'll be surprised if they can do it, but it's worth looking into.

I'm looking at a safety 1st Apex - or something like that (has a 5pt. harness that works for bigger kids, too, then goes to a highback booster?).

Jenn


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

My take? Current reccomendations are that a child needs to be 4 before they are in a booster, this poor baby was barely 3. 3yos are NOT mature enough to use boosters. Who knows if his seat was even buckled in. My oldest had to ride in a booster once (terrifying for me) and the first thing he did was unbuckle the seatbelt. Many cars are in crashes several times before they are no longer used. Whose to say however they determined that the seatbelt had been buckled during the crash wasn't from a previous one? No matter what happened, I still strongly believe things would've been different had he been in a 5pt harness. He needed a higher weight limit since he was 40#, but not all children do, so keep that in mind. That being said, AJ is getting a Regent next year, but it has nothing to do w/ this video.

We have the Radian, you can see my pics there. It's worked out well for us despite installation issues in some cars.

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...Kids%20Radian/

Quote:

There needs to be a better gage of when to have a child sitting in a 5 point. There are many skinny/thin people out in this world.
There is, it's called the 5pt test. If you couldn't pass this as an adult, technically you should still be in a booster. Average height is 4'9" when you can pass this test.

http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.htm

Quote:

As a result I did go out and buy (2) 5 point harness boosters from ToysRUs for 69.00 each. They are rated up to 100lbs and have a double latching back up system that latches to the the mounts between the back of the seats and the couch as well as being Teathered and also Lap Belted.
Like someone mentioned, these only go to 40# harnessed, so would not have helped a child Kyle's size. Also, you can only install a seat using LATCH OR the seatbelt, not both so your seats are NOT properly installed. You also must unhook the seat from the car (including tether) when you go to use them as a booster. Please have your seats checked. www.seatcheck.org

Quote:

I'm looking at a safety 1st Apex - or something like that (has a 5pt. harness that works for bigger kids, too, then goes to a highback booster?).
You need high back seats or headrests to use this seat, but if you have them it's an o.k. seat.


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## stephaniebrookeh (Nov 11, 2006)

Hi,

Just FYI: I found and purchased a Britax Regent today at a new website, that actually had them in stock with free shipping. I paid $249. It is www.macrobaby.com

I used to be really anal about carseats. I can tightly fit a Britax into any car! And am eager to tell all parents to put their infant carseat handle down while driving!

But, after 4 children, I got lazy. My 4 1/2 year old daughter is/was in one of the Graco Boosters...I always buckled her in, and fought with the belts! She is only 34 pounds, and squirmy! It just doesn't fit her right.

My 6 and 7 year olds are in the graco bases only with the shoulder belts. They fit well!

My baby 10 months is in a Britax roundabout! I will now keep her rear-facing longer. Then, I am going to move her to my Maxi-Cosi Priori. It is a European carseat that I fell in love with when they were still importing them to the states...lock off clips and teather as well as a one-hand multiple position recline. They are still selling them overseas!

I say the more information the better! If you can buy it, great! If not, then make sure that you are using that convertable until 40 pounds, and then make sure that you are buckling in your child in her booster seat!

I hope this finds you all well,
Stephanie


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## stephaniebrookeh (Nov 11, 2006)

Like someone mentioned, these only go to 40# harnessed, so would not have helped a child Kyle's size. Also, you can only install a seat using LATCH OR the seatbelt, not both so your seats are NOT properly installed. You also must unhook the seat from the car (including tether) when you go to use them as a booster. Please have your seats checked. www.seatcheck.org

I am so glad that you pointed this out! A lot of times, people think they can buck the system, and be smarter/safer than safe. Convertable booster seats that transition from 5 point harness to lap-positioning booster seats....do just that TRANSITION!

You cannot double buckle or teather after the transition. It makes the seat less safe, and your child in more danger. Seats are designed specifically to absorb impact and also to protect your child.

In a crash, the seat back moves with your child against the belt, and thus protects his head and neck. If the booster is teather or latched to the seat, it cannot move with the child. Thus the child violently moves forward, then slams back against the seat ....that has remained stationary. It is like hitting a brick wall.

Read and follow your carseat's instructions! Front to back!

NOTE: How many of you know to put your carrying handle, on your infant carseat, down resting against the front seats? It is in the manual!

Hope all is well,
Stephanie


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## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks for the video link...so sad









Dd is long ways away from moving to a booster but I'm wondering does anyone know the name of the car seat that was in the Mothering magazine Cool Picks section? It was several issue back. It looked like a convertible or booster seat. It had a dial on the front to adjust the straps...it looked really nice. It wasn't a Britax. It was a name I've never heard of...wondering what that one fits up to and it's safety rating?


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## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stephaniebrookeh* 
NOTE: How many of you know to put your carrying handle, on your infant carseat, down resting against the front seats? It is in the manual!

Good point! I read my manual front to back so I knew this but I see car seats with them up sometimes...using them to put toys on for baby to play with.

Also I never thought about it before until I read it somewhere that you shouldn't have loose article inside your car in case of them becoming missiles during a crash. This is hard/impossible to do at times and I don't know how real of a threat this is.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stephaniebrookeh* 

NOTE: How many of you know to put your carrying handle, on your infant carseat, down resting against the front seats? It is in the manual!


Stephanie....*this is no longer the case. Handles can be in any one of many positions now*. Refer to your car seat manual for your recommended handle position while driving. *In addition, it is not recommended that an infant* *carrier handle be touching the backs of the seats in front of it.* This prevents the infant carrier from moving as designed and would affect its performance in the event of a crash.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
You need high back seats or headrests to use this seat, but if you have them it's an o.k. seat.

I thought you needed a highback booster if you DIDN'T have a headrest in the car? We have a headrest on the seats behind the passenger and driver seats.

Jenn


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabrog* 
I thought you needed a highback booster if you DIDN'T have a headrest in the car? We have a headrest on the seats behind the passenger and driver seats.

Jenn

The Apex specifically requires high back seats or headrests to support it - it isnt just a high back booster tho.. it harnesses to 65 lbs.


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Another car seat thread!

I am looking for a convertible carseat that needs to meet two major criteria:
1) will fit in a Subaru Forester
2) is FAA certified for use on an airplane

Is it worthwhile for me, with just a 4-month old, to seek out seats that go to 65 pounds, or would the seat be too old anyway by the time DD is that weight?

Thanks in advance!

(I'm going to x-post on the car-seat-safety.org site too.)


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## rosie29 (Aug 18, 2004)

Well, here's my dilemma. Maybe someone else can help with it. We have our 2.5 year old in a convertible car seat (forget what brand) in the middle spot of our back seat, as that is said to be safer than a side seat. He is still rear-facing (weighs less than 30 lb.). However, the car seat is installed with the seat belt as our car (Subaru Legacy) only has LATCH on the side seats. What is more risky, being in the side seats or using a seat belt to install the car seat? We had it installed by an inspector, so I'd assume she'd tell us if she thought that using LATCH vs. seat belt was more important than being in middle spot.

We do not use the tether as that is only for forward-facing, according to the car seat instructions. Thanks!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rosie29* 
Well, here's my dilemma. Maybe someone else can help with it. We have our 2.5 year old in a convertible car seat (forget what brand) in the middle spot of our back seat, as that is said to be safer than a side seat. He is still rear-facing (weighs less than 30 lb.). However, the car seat is installed with the seat belt as our car (Subaru Legacy) only has LATCH on the side seats. What is more risky, being in the side seats or using a seat belt to install the car seat? We had it installed by an inspector, so I'd assume she'd tell us if she thought that using LATCH vs. seat belt was more important than being in middle spot.

We do not use the tether as that is only for forward-facing, according to the car seat instructions. Thanks!

There is nothing inherently risky about securing a seat with the seat belt...as long as the seat is properly installed.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rosie29* 
Well, here's my dilemma. Maybe someone else can help with it. We have our 2.5 year old in a convertible car seat (forget what brand) in the middle spot of our back seat, as that is said to be safer than a side seat. He is still rear-facing (weighs less than 30 lb.). However, the car seat is installed with the seat belt as our car (Subaru Legacy) only has LATCH on the side seats. What is more risky, being in the side seats or using a seat belt to install the car seat? We had it installed by an inspector, so I'd assume she'd tell us if she thought that using LATCH vs. seat belt was more important than being in middle spot.

We do not use the tether as that is only for forward-facing, according to the car seat instructions. Thanks!

It is always safest practice to install a CRS in the rear center seat position assuming one child. The only thing that trumps that, is if the car seat is not compatible there (ie: pull down arm rest or cupholder and the manuf. states do not install a rear facing car seat there, or vehicle belt incompatibility; (an example of that is lateral lift) or even size of center seat which does not accomodate a car seat at all.
Here is a past thread in more detail. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=155867
LATCH and seatbelt installs are just two different methods. One is not safer than the other. HOW you install it is the key.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## rosie29 (Aug 18, 2004)

OK, I think I get it now. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. Thanks also for the link to the other thread, DC, I've wondered how to position once we have a second child.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treehugginhippie* 
Also I never thought about it before until I read it somewhere that you shouldn't have loose article inside your car in case of them becoming missiles during a crash. This is hard/impossible to do at times and I don't know how real of a threat this is.


I just learned this also. It makes perfect sense.

The other day I went to a climbing store nearby and bought some webbing to tie into short (2 foot) loops connected to the tether tie-in in the way back of my Sienna (the kids are in the 2nd row). I got some carabiners to attach to the webbing loop that I use to clip anything into that is back there (diaper bag, clip-on high chair, etc). I also created one to tie down the stroller which lives in the back of my car. Now if we get in a crash or roll-over the stuff won't fly all over the car.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

okay did I read that right that you should have either latched or seatbelted.


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

So the Apex should work fine in our car - thank you! I want it because it harnesses to such a high weight!

Jenn


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moochie Mamma* 
I just learned this also. It makes perfect sense.

The other day I went to a climbing store nearby and bought some webbing to tie into short (2 foot) loops connected to the tether tie-in in the way back of my Sienna (the kids are in the 2nd row). I got some carabiners to attach to the webbing loop that I use to clip anything into that is back there (diaper bag, clip-on high chair, etc). I also created one to tie down the stroller which lives in the back of my car. Now if we get in a crash or roll-over the stuff won't fly all over the car.


We use bungee cords.

DC


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Yeah we have a Subraru Forester and I recently started closing that back cover each and every time I drive, b/c the stroller also lives back there, and there is a flashlight as well and maybe a tub of wiper fluid. Although, now that I think about it, I wonder if that could come undone in an accident? I'm a little confused by your description (me not you, don't worry) I should just get some of those caribeaner thingies, and some kind of cords and attach them to something back there? I also don't leave ANYTHING loose in the front seat if I can help it, save for a sling and baggie with diaper in it. I'm assuming a flying hotsling wouldn't kill us in an accident. But MDC posters made me aware of not having anything loose in a car.


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