# Why French Parents Are Superior...



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

While Americans fret over modern parenthood, the French are raising happy, well-behaved children without all the anxiety. Pamela Druckerman on the Gallic secrets for avoiding tantrums, teaching patience and saying 'non' with authority.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204740904577196931457473816.html

Well, what do you think?


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

C'est vrai!


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

I'm a lot closer to France than America, but this is a very rosy, highly stereotyped view of French parents.

Yes, european kids generally have to wait more (no instant gratification) so eating out may be easier. Plus, eating out for the kids may be a luxury in and of itself. When at home, we eat out 5 times a year, it just isn't done. So eating out will be entertaining for kids that rarely do this.

Not interrupting, waiting your turn, sharing, very social attributes are stressed here, at home and school, way more so than educational subjects. Also looking at the long term picture, instead of the 5 second sound bite. But when I get together with other americans, we revert back to old bad habits - we get loud and interrupt each other, we hold multiple conversations at once, we want a quick bite rather than a leisurely meal.... So if parents are not very patient, how can they teach their kids to be patient?

I think she is saying the French are raising more free-range-kids. And that perhaps they have more limits and consequences, that no means no, not try me.

I don't like that she advocates CIO.


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## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

I think some aspects of the article ring true and seem like a good idea: the idea of thinking of "discipline" as an education process, the idea of teaching delayed gratification, etc. However, I also dislike advocating CIO. From what I've heard (from a friend who's sister lives in France, so obviously not a good, broad representation of French society as a whole necessarily) is that CIO is the norm, and breastfeeding for 6 mos is considered "extended breastfeeding". The specific story I was told recently was that her sister's friend had brought their baby daughter home from the hospital and she was put in the basement to sleep so that her parents couldn't hear her crying. That made me want to cry.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

To be fair, she doesn't describe CIO, at least not my understanding of it.

Quote:


> Their parents don't pick them up the second they start crying, allowing the babies to learn how to fall back asleep.


That's not the same as allowing a pre verbal baby to cry for a long time. How long is a long time? I don't know, but when I read the above I pictured a mom letting baby cry for a minute, maybe two, to see if sleep would naturally return. Problem is, that NEVER worked with either of my babies. Maybe I didn't wait long enough, but after 30 seconds of crying I couldn't see how the baby would be going back to sleep.

Though I take your friend's sister's word for it, that French parents tend to CIO.

Anyway!


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

I think she'll be on every morning show and talk show and sell a gazillion copies of her book because she came up with a clever hook that creates controversy and at the same time preys on parents insecurities.


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

When we were in France, we did not see one child behaving badly in restaurants, parks or museums. Not one.

Oh, wait, I should clarify that. We never saw a single child behaving badly that was European. The parents were speaking to (not yelling at) their children in French (we also heard German, Dutch and Danish).

The only badly behaved kids we saw were being yelled at in English (American, not British) and were not being kept under control. We saw American children at the Louvre, Musee d'Orsay and other museums ignoring rules (because their parents weren't paying attention to them, other than to yell) and fussing at restaurants ("I don't like this junk, I wanna go to MacDonald's!!).

This is a broad view of things, but I think European children ARE more polite. When we saw how the French were around their children, we knew that that was how we were going to raise any children we had (we were on our honeymoon and then on an anniversary trip). Except for the cio (which, remember, AMERICAN society advocates, as well, so don't go dumping on other cultures because of that thought), we have done that and are pleased with how it has worked.

As AllisonR says, "Not interrupting, waiting your turn, sharing, very social attributes are stressed here, at home and school, way more so than educational subjects. Also looking at the long term picture, instead of the 5 second sound bite."

European parents are more about actual parenting, I think, than about trying to be their child's friend and not setting limits.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh great, one more thing to me I'm a shyt parent.


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

I didn't read it all, I started zoning out when she talked about making a 2-3 monther "wait" and how the French didn't snack. Er. Ok. The French can be superior parents, and I can be me


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I've just read a few more articles concerning this. Since most of us are attached parents... it's obvious that french mothers are detached. And that's fine. If it makes them superior, sure. Have at at it. As a kid you could take me anywhere. Out in public I was perfect. If I wasn't... doom awaited me at home. Appearances were very important. I'd love to look into a perfect french mothers home and I'd be waiting to see a hungry child not being a tad bit testy.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Well, at least French parents don't circumcise! That alone gets a good mark from me.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Asking for respect from children and making them wait sometimes is detached parenting? That attitude gives attachment parenting a bad name.

I love this article for the great ideas it gave for teaching delayed gratification. This is such an important, undervalued skill. Our suppertime is chaotic because I am worried the kids are going to get too hungry before I can get supper on the table. I let them eat their candy right away. We open packages to eat in the store while shopping. I let the kids interrupt me all the time.

I'm not going to make my baby wait for comfort but my older kids could definetly use some delayed gratification skill-building.

The author specifically states that the French aren't perfect (of course!) so why not have an open mind, leave behind the defensiveness and realize there are benefits to some of their methods?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

It sounds like she was comparing French parents who expect their kids to behave to American parents who don't. That really isn't a fair comparision. I think her findings would be much different if she made sure she was comparing parents with similar expectations. I rarely see kids having tantrums, running away from parents, or being allowed to interrupt their parents where I live either because parents gently or not so gently teach them that these things aren't appropriate. It sounds like the author was just a parent who didn't know how to gently reinforce her expectations until someone taught her the trick about tone and expecting your child to listen to you. That really isn't a skill limited to European countries.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I wasn't that impressed with that article, for several reasons.

1) She stereotypes too much. I'm sure that, culturally, there are differences between the way most Americans parent and the ways most French people parent. But, this kind of article is short, and inherently limited. She made it sound like every single French parent does things the exact same (superior) way, and every single American parent does things the exact same (inferior) way. It's nonsensical.

2) The stuff about going to the fridge just annoyed me. There's nothing inherently wrong with children getting themselves food from the fridge! My kids have to ask before they eat anything from the fridge (we have a few things in the house that are "eat them if you want them"...mostly fruit), but that's mostly because of...inventory control, I guess. I don't want them having cheese, when I have just enough for the quesadillas I was going to make, yk? But, I don't think it's a problem, just on principle, if a chlid goes to the fridge and grabs a yogurt or a carrot or whatever.

3) I felt the same way about the mealtimes thing. I'm actually too accommodating, imo - comes from having been a "picky eater" myself and having to eat way too many meals that I didn't want to eat. My mom wasn't super pushy about it, but she still made a lot of meals I didn't like (my parents ate a lot of "meat and potatoes" meals, and I hated mashed potatoes, and also can't stand most meat fat - like it makes me feel nauseated), so I didn't get to anything I really enjoyed at dinner much. For some people, that doesn't seem to be a big deal - dh will eat things he doesn't much like, and it doesn't bother him. For me, it was really rough. So, I have trouble navigating this one with my kids. But, even taking that into consideration, I really can't see how "they only eat three meals a day, with one afternoon snack" translates into "they're better parents". It just doesn't compute for me.

4) The author drives me nuts! I know a couple parents like her (one AP, one not) in that they have this belief that they "can't" do this or that with their kids. It seems to have been a major epiphany for her that she actually has some control over the situation, and has some authority. That just boggles me. Yeah - there are times when I'm too tired to parent properly. DS2 has been frustrating, exhausting, and immensely humbling. But, the only times I couldn't parent were when I couldn't parent (ie. first few days post-op after the c-sections, etc.). I'm glad she figured out that children running all over their parents isn't the natural order of things, but...wow...

5) My biggest issue is the "superior" thing. From what she describes, the general parenting approach in France has some real benefits. But, that doesn't mean it's "superior". It means it's different. Take what works for you and leave it at that.

Oh - and there was no talk whatsoever about what kind of adults this produces. I think attempting any kind of parenting comparison, based on the behaviour of the children, is nuts. I've met well behaved kids who were being emotionally and/or physically abused into good behaviour. I've met liltle "hellions" who grew up to be really quite lovely young men and women (thinking about a lot of ds1's friends and classmates, many of whom I've known since kindergarten, or even before, and who are now in college, university, the work force, etc.). I don't think "that child sits quietly in a restaurant" and "that child listens immediately when mom says something" tell us all that much.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh - I also have to say that I have my doubts about the "building" of the ability to delay gratification. DS1 was gifted at it. I've honestly never met a child who was as innately able to wait as he was (not just mama pride, either - I had several people comment on it when he was little). DD1 is kind of average. DS2 has no ability to delay gratification. None. If he asks for a glass of water, and I'm juggling three things at the stove, or have my hands in the sink, and say "yes - just a second", he'll have a meltdown. "Wait" and "no" seem to process in his brain in exactly the same way. And, dh is the same way. Sure - he was "taught" to delay gratification. So, he knows how to wait, but he still sucks at it, still becomes unbearable in some ways, and just has no patience. His dad is the same way.

I've heard about the big marshmallow experiment in delayed gratification before. I even think it's got a lot of validity...but I've never seen anything in it that proves that the kids who wanted immediate gratification could have been taught not to, or that such teaching would have had a significant impact on their futures. It just seemed to be taken for granted that it's a skill that can be taught. If I have a long wait at a restaurant, I just wait - it's not a big deal to me, and never was. If dh has a long wait at a restaurant, he'll "just wait"...and fidget, and complain about the service every two minutes, and announce that we're never coming here again, and...so on. Sure - he can wait, but the personality traits that made him the immediate gratification type as a child are still there, and they do still affect the way he interacts with the world. And, he's not really any more patient than he used to be - he's just learned how to hide it.

Yes - kids need to learn to wait, and need to understand that things take time. But, I don't think they can genuinely learn the "skill" of delayed gratification from that.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Well I am a perfect parent and have gleaned the best from all cultures to have perfect children.

Hold your applause and, thank you.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

I'll be here all week!


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

HA! Nice YF! Being the better parent is important.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Did you read all the articles or just this one? I don't think french mothers are terrible. They were described in some of the articles as more detached... And no that doesn't make them "Detached" parents. It just means they don't coddle. If it works for them great. I'm wondering though, how do they get their toddlers not to tantrum? Maybe I should get the book.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> Asking for respect from children and making them wait sometimes is detached parenting? That attitude gives attachment parenting a bad name.
> 
> ...


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/9011303/French-mothers-dont-have-it-all-their-own-way.html

Meh, what ever works. What's next? First the Chinese now French? I bet the Finnish are next!


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## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/familyadvice/9011303/French-mothers-dont-have-it-all-their-own-way.html
> 
> Meh, what ever works. What's next? First the Chinese now French? I bet the Finnish are next!


Maybe it'll go more "Wild Kingdom" - "Gorilla Mothering - What you can learn" - after all, their kids always eat their veggies and never talk back!


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh... I want one that doesn't talk back. Or roll her eyes. Damn my stupid mexican american upbringing! Though I do have fond memories of chanklas (sandals) flying through the air at me when I got mouthy!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nstewart*
> 
> Maybe it'll go more "Wild Kingdom" - "Gorilla Mothering - What you can learn" - after all, their kids always eat their veggies and never talk back!


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> First the Chinese now French?


No, first it was the Yequana.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

You just made me google that!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> No, first it was the Yequana.


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## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> You just made me google that!


Me too!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Sounds like the 50s to me maybe? Don't coddle the baby, let them cry a bit, children seen and not heard?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I'm surprised at the negativity towards this article. Maybe the stupid title draws on our mothering insecurities? I'm not going to run out and buy the book but there is definitely some wisdom to what she says.

The absence of delayed gratification means that kids are being instantly gratified and too much of this, for adults or kids, is detrimental to character growth. I don't need to create situations where my kids need to wait- life provides enough practice- I just don't want to get in the way of natural opportunities to learn patience, sharing,perserverance etc. Delayed gratification is not the goal but a means to the end.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Why are you so annoyed that we're sick of being told every body else does it better? All the articles I looked up said that French mothers are better. Not "here are some great and helpful parenting tips". Get me? Screw it I know I'm not perfect and I know I need help in lots of areas.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I'm surprised at the negativity towards this article. Maybe the stupid title draws on our mothering insecurities? I'm not going to run out and buy the book but there is definitely some wisdom to what she says.
> 
> The absence of delayed gratification means that kids are being instantly gratified and too much of this, for adults or kids, is detrimental to character growth. I don't need to create situations where my kids need to wait- life provides enough practice- I just don't want to get in the way of natural opportunities to learn patience, sharing,perserverance etc. Delayed gratification is not the goal but a means to the end.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I'm surprised at the negativity towards this article. Maybe the stupid title draws on our mothering insecurities? I'm not going to run out and buy the book but there is definitely some wisdom to what she says.
> 
> The absence of delayed gratification means that kids are being instantly gratified and too much of this, for adults or kids, is detrimental to character growth. I don't need to create situations where my kids need to wait- life provides enough practice- I just don't want to get in the way of natural opportunities to learn patience, sharing,perserverance etc. Delayed gratification is not the goal but a means to the end.


I think it could be argued there's wisdom to the notion that it's worth teaching children to be patient, but I don't think there's much wisdom in what she says. It's really hard to take someone seriously who would use such a "stupid title" and make such sweeping generalizations. Without the French/American comparison she wouldn't have gotten as much coverage or have the potential to sell as many books. It just seems like a money grab to me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I'm surprised at the negativity towards this article. Maybe the stupid title draws on our mothering insecurities? I'm not going to run out and buy the book but there is definitely some wisdom to what she says.
> 
> ...


ETA: And, the "French mothers are superior to American mothers" thing has no reason to bother me, anyway. I'm neither.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Yeah it's basic principles of parenting but I feel like most books out there rehash old principles- it's helpful for me to hear different voices "reviewing" the basics because I tend to fall into my same old rut really easily. It is really refreshing to read about loving parents setting firm boundaries because I am a little too permissive.

The author is obviously trying to drum up some controversy and I understand how her assumptions might be off-putting but I really like the reminder that my kids are capable of doing more than I currently expect of them.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Having traveled all over and lived quite a few places, I've found the French to be the overall rudest people.

So the idea that they raise polite children seems laughable to me.

Just not buying it -- not one little bit.

There's is a difference between following the appropriate social conventions some place like a restaurant, and actually being a polite humane being. To generalize about an entire group of people, the French tend to be good at the first, but not at the second.

And I think the second is more important.

I have managed to raise offspring who understand that other people have feelings, but at 4 they were fairly horrid in restaurants.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> I'm surprised at the negativity towards this article. Maybe the stupid title draws on our mothering insecurities? I'm not going to run out and buy the book but there is definitely some wisdom to what she says.


Did you read the article?

Here is a quote from the second paragraph:

"A French infant is more likely than a British one to be left to "self-soothe" at night. Picky eaters are given no quarter. You don't eat your tripes à la mode de Caen? You go to bed hungry. Tantrums are likely to be met with a smacked bottom (something the British middle-classes now regard with horror); schools favour learning by rote; and children are seen but not heard. Because their children are better behaved, mothers have more time to themselves in which to co-ordinate their lingerie and stay thin."

And you wonder why on mothering.commune, the bastion of natural family living, any one would be negative?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I've been thinking about this article (read it a few days ago, when a friend on Facebook linked to it), and this thread today. And...I think I object to the idea that any one method of parenting is "superior". My approach is pretty AP, although I was parenting that way long before I ever heard the term. But, despite the fact that my children have all been parented pretty much the same way, they've all responded to it differently. DD1 hated being nursed to sleep, and, in fact, wouldn't fall asleep while nursing, because she found it over-stimulating. My others all loved it. (The same applies to singing at bedtime, with the same child being an exception - at least until she was about two.) My kids have been on a spectrum, in terms of how well, long, etc. they slept in a bed sharing situation. They respond to attention differently, and require different kinds of attention. They have varying degrees of ability to delay gratification. They have differening levels of empathy. They have completely different social strengths and challenges. They have different requirements, in terms of eating patterns. They frequently respond differently to the same discipine techniques.

I have four living children. Three of them have the same two parents, and all four of them have the same mom. They've all been raised by the same mom since birth, and by the same parents for the last 10.5 years. And, yet, they all have wildly different personalities and strengths.I have to tweak my parenting approach for each of them. If there's no one size fits all approach to parenting four children in the same family, I find it a laughable to over-simplification to assert that one way is superior to another, when we're talking about entire countries, with all kinds of genetic traits, cultural differences, etc. involved...not to mention the sheer number of children we're talking about. It just makes no sense to me at all.

I think parents (American, Canadian, French, Chinese, Brazilian, etc. etc. etc.) need to remember that they/we are parents. I think it's important to consider (and sometimes reconsider) exactly what it is we're trying to accomplish on our parenting journey, both in terms of what we're hoping our adult children will be like, and what kind of relationship we hope to have with them, both as adults and as children...and, to complicate it further, this all has to be considered within our specific cultural context! But, I think it's asinine to assert that one country's way of parenting is "superior" to another country's way. We're all different. Our kids are different. We all need to figure out what works for our own families. I don't care what they do in France. I don't care what they do in the US. I don't even care what "they" do in Canada. I care what works for me, dh, ds1, dd1, ds2 and dd2.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Did you read the article?
> 
> ...


Noooo- I didn't read that. The article that is linked must be a different version? What this one says is this: "It is why the French babies I meet mostly sleep through the night from two or three months old. Their parents don't pick them up the second they start crying, allowing the babies to learn how to fall back asleep". Not too harsh although not something I agree with. What I am questioning is the absolute rejection of the article by most people here. She has some great, basic ideas about parenting I was happy to be reminded of.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I've been thinking about this article (read it a few days ago, when a friend on Facebook linked to it), and this thread today. And...I think I object to the idea that any one method of parenting is "superior". My approach is pretty AP, although I was parenting that way long before I ever heard the term. But, despite the fact that my children have all been parented pretty much the same way, they've all responded to it differently. DD1 hated being nursed to sleep, and, in fact, wouldn't fall asleep while nursing, because she found it over-stimulating. My others all loved it. (The same applies to singing at bedtime, with the same child being an exception - at least until she was about two.) My kids have been on a spectrum, in terms of how well, long, etc. they slept in a bed sharing situation. They respond to attention differently, and require different kinds of attention. They have varying degrees of ability to delay gratification. They have differening levels of empathy. They have completely different social strengths and challenges. They have different requirements, in terms of eating patterns. They frequently respond differently to the same discipine techniques.
> 
> ...


True. No one way of parenting is ever going to be the "right" way but the different perspective is really interesting to me. Probably because I am working on having more structure and routine in our own family.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid*
> 
> What I am questioning is the absolute rejection of the article by most people here. She has some great, basic ideas about parenting I was happy to be reminded of.


Well, I'm rejecting the article, because it's poorly written crap. I had trouble discerning what basic ideas of parenting she was even trying to put across, except for "be a parent" (duh) and the value of routine and structure. I think the type of routine and structure described is overkill, personally. But, these ideas are things I revisit and think about fairly regularly, anyway.

In any case, if she wanted to talk about basic parenting ideas, good on her. She could have tossed all the culture war crap (including the random, pointless dig at "snotty Parisiens", which, imo, kind of invalidated everything she was saying - "oh, French parents are so awesome that they raise children who become adults I can't stand" is a weird message to me), the rampant generalizing, and the insistence on taking her own utter cluelessness as the cultural norm of the USA. I don't know that many American parents irl, but none of them fit into the bizarre "American parent" box she was using in her article.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Did you read the article?
> 
> ...


That's not the article I posted. That's from the article Imakcerka posted, and it provides some good, humorous perspective from a British mum.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Yeah, I was trying to point out that there was numerous articles pertaining to this "Idea". I picked that one because it's not from the US. I'm sure if I kept looking I could find something from each country where the moms are super pleased with once again being told they suck.

I've never found the french that I've met to be rude.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> That's not the article I posted. That's from the article Imakcerka posted, and it provides some good, humorous perspective from a British mum.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

It took me a minute to dig it up, but there was a similar article that was popular when my oldest was a toddler, so this more recent article isn't exactly groundbreaking material.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632992/Is-Maman-mean-or-magnifique.html


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Thanks for the article.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> It took me a minute to dig it up, but there was a similar article that was popular when my oldest was a toddler, so this more recent article isn't exactly groundbreaking material.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632992/Is-Maman-mean-or-magnifique.html


I honestly don't think I could stomach raising my kids that way though. I wouldn't treat my dog that way. But then again, there are lots of parents here in the states that do worse.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Okay, I bought the book that excerpts the original article, and I'm reading it now. She examines the ways that she, as an American living in Paris, sees the French methods of child-rearing as different. They don't do CIO so much as not picking the baby up the second s/he peeps at night--they recognize that babies come in and out of deeper and lighter sleep phases, and that if they can learn to fall back into deeper sleep on their own when they're small, they don't need a parent. Also, it isn't so much that they seek out opportunities to instill delayed gratification as that they treat their kids more like small adults who are simply expected to learn to delay gratification. For instance, mothers and children will bake together (great for kids to learn patience) and then they will wait to eat what they baked until snack time. I think some of the stuff regarding food is rather strict--three meals and one snack a day, even I can't get through the morning without a snack and I wouldn't expect a kid to, and that can't be good for breastfeeding. But on the whole, I think her point is that the parents she observed draw limits and are firm about them rather than giving in when the children protest. Also they are not focused on children hitting their milestones so much as experiencing life. For instance, they go to a swim class but it turns out it isn't about teaching the preschool-aged kids to swim, rather about letting them experience the water with their parents.

This is probably easier to do in France than the United States.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> It took me a minute to dig it up, but there was a similar article that was popular when my oldest was a toddler, so this more recent article isn't exactly groundbreaking material.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632992/Is-Maman-mean-or-magnifique.html


Excellent, thanks for this. Definitely a different perspective of the same idea.

The 'Missed the Boat' thread deals with some of this. I do wish dh and I had done some things differently when my kids were little, to reclaim some of our adult life from our child-centered life. But I really couldn't figure out how to do that without being cruel, or at least what I define as cruel.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erigeron*
> 
> Okay, I bought the book that excerpts the original article, and I'm reading it now. She examines the ways that she, as an American living in Paris, sees the French methods of child-rearing as different. They don't do CIO so much as not picking the baby up the second s/he peeps at night--they recognize that babies come in and out of deeper and lighter sleep phases, and that if they can learn to fall back into deeper sleep on their own when they're small, they don't need a parent.
> 
> ...


Maybe French parents are "superior" to American parents. I just didn't see any evidence of it in this article. And, I thought it was very poorly written, all around.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I thought the title of the article was a little much. Maybe it was picked to get under people's skins deliberately. I don't know. I have one child and she's still a baby, so I am appreciating the book for its common-sense discussions of setting limits with kids. I like getting a lot of different perspectives to help me figure out what approach I want to take myself. For someone who's already been a parent for a while it's probably not as helpful. I agree that the all French are this way/all Americans are this way is kind of reductive, though just because it's not accurate in all cases doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained from a discussion of differences between the two cultures. In the book she does expand on general cultural elements that can feed into these tendencies, like how they approach birth, breastfeeding, day care, preschool, and I'm only midway through the book so I'm not sure what all else.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> But...but...so many baked goods are so much better when they're hot out of the oven! That's not just delaying gratification, imo - it's skipping gratification.










So true. Seriously, if letting my daughter eat a warm chocolate chip cookie fresh out of the oven makes me a less than superior mother, then so be it.


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## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erigeron*
> 
> Okay, I bought the book that excerpts the original article, and I'm reading it now. She examines the ways that she, as an American living in Paris, sees the French methods of child-rearing as different. They don't do CIO so much as not picking the baby up the second s/he peeps at night--they recognize that babies come in and out of deeper and lighter sleep phases, and that if they can learn to fall back into deeper sleep on their own when they're small, they don't need a parent. Also, it isn't so much that they seek out opportunities to instill delayed gratification as that they treat their kids more like small adults who are simply expected to learn to delay gratification. For instance, mothers and children will bake together (great for kids to learn patience) and then they will wait to eat what they baked until snack time. I think some of the stuff regarding food is rather strict--three meals and one snack a day, even I can't get through the morning without a snack and I wouldn't expect a kid to, and that can't be good for breastfeeding. But on the whole, I think her point is that the parents she observed draw limits and are firm about them rather than giving in when the children protest. Also they are not focused on children hitting their milestones so much as experiencing life. For instance, they go to a swim class but it turns out it isn't about teaching the preschool-aged kids to swim, rather about letting them experience the water with their parents.
> 
> This is probably easier to do in France than the United States.


I'm with Stormbride. I fail to see how this is a particularily French approach to parenting. Everything that is described in the article seems very common, in my experience. I do agree with you however that the food thing is rather strict (if it is even true, it seems to also be a sweeping over-generalization) as I'd rather teach my son to eat when he's hungry, not to eat for the sake of eating because it "is time".


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

I really think so many of the unpleasant trends in American parenting these days stem from a deep anxiety about our children's future economic security. I live in a pretty high-pressure suburb of NYC, and I really feel like so many decisions about extracurricular activities and about parenting stem from a desire we all have to get our kids into the best possible colleges. So that they don't end up in low-paying careers without proper health insurance, saddled with lifelong crippling student loan debt. So that they have more choices and flexibility in life, like the flexibility to work part time and afford child care while they work. So that they can save appropriately for retirement. I don't think Europeans feel this same kind of anxiety at all, because their educations systems work differently, and because affordable health care, education, and child care are provided by the state. I would parent a lot differently if I knew that my adult children would have guaranteed access to these things.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I finally read the right link.









I still didn't care for the article.

On one hand, there were some tidbits that were good, but they are better stated in this very old and very AP friendly article:

http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

The article that was posted was full of incredible generalizations about both American parents and French parents. I know way to many Americans who don't fit her mold.

I agree that there is nothing french about leaving babies to "self sooth" ie cry, and that feeding a toddler on a schedule is old style American and British parenting -- there's nothing esp. french about it.

I'm over the whole "every thing in America is bad and we should copy the rest of the world" trend. I like it here, partly because we are free mentally to do what we want. In so many countries, even politically free countries, people really don't think outside the box. I like living where every body does their own thing.

I live on a street where the families all parent their kids in different ways. There is no "American" way to raise kids. I'm fine with that.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks for that article, Linda. Very interesting.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 


> I live on a street where the families all parent their kids in different ways. There is no "American" way to raise kids. I'm fine with that.


Maybe that's what bugged me so much. I'm not American, but I feel the same way about a "Canadian" way to raise kids. I live in a townhouse complex, and there are about six families with "school age" (elementary school) kids, just in our little section. None of us do things the same way. I know at least one family spanks occasionally. We try to be GD, and AP and homeschool, etc. Another family is quite punitive (imo), but has a strict "no hitting" rule for everyone, including the parents. We aim for cooking from scratch, mostly whole foods, and minimal treats (don't always do well with that last), and are quite loose about mealtimes, snacks, etc. At least three other families that I know of have pantries full of processed food, and one of them has very strict "only at mealtimes" rules.

I don't think any of us reflect "the" Canadian way to parent. And, honestly - most of the kids I'm talking about show every sign of being happy, healthy, etc. and all those homes have a lot of love. I think the kids will all be just fine.


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## changes (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98*
> 
> When we were in France, we did not see one child behaving badly in restaurants, parks or museums. Not one.
> 
> ...


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

We were out to eat both last night and tonight and at both restaurants there were quite a few children. These were nice restaurants that are known for being lovely places dine rather than quick places to grab a bite. I think it's safe to assume the children were mostly Americans. They were all well behaved. Seriously. Every single child.

I was noticing it because of this thread.

I have to wonder how tired an American child on vacation dealing with jet lag would be at a Museum in Europe. I think judging the behavior of ALL American children based on how those exhausted children being dragged around museums behave is pretty bogus.

My great aunt used to say that there were 2 kids of children: good children, and tired children.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> I have to wonder how tired an American child on vacation dealing with jet lag would be at a Museum in Europe. I think judging the behavior of ALL American children based on how those exhausted children being dragged around museums behave is pretty bogus.
> 
> ...


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## Wolfcat (Jan 10, 2006)

Actually, I agree with the anecdote at the end of that article.

Sometimes when I say "no", I have the background of having considered the pros and cons of the action and made a decision that it is not acceptable. DS rarely argues about those "no"s, and DD just obeys. When I don't have that conviction, or when DH says "no" (he doesn't believe the kids see him as an authority figure), they blow right through it.

Knowing that something is a firm boundary and letting that knowing come through, that is something we can all learn from.


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

I just hated the article because it's not based on actual data, it's based on the three French moms (okay I may be exagerating) the author knows. The plural of anecdote is not data. To base a book or a parenting theory on what a friend of yours tells you is absurd. Oh--her french friend visited a family in California and was horrified that the CA children got their own snacks? So we should be more like the French? What? As someone patiently teaching her 6 and 3 year olds how to get their own snacks... ridiculous.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> On one hand, there were some tidbits that were good, but they are better stated in this very old and very AP friendly article:
> 
> http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html


I am constantly seeing that article linked on here and I have to say I think it is total bunk.

I think Liedloff has misattributed to parental approach what is really an effect of the society at large. I don't beg, plead, hit, or ignore my 2 y/o. I do have pretty clear expectations (the water stays in the tub), and I do have straightforward and consistently enforced consequences (water on the floor? bath is over now). Nonetheless she is out of control and there is always water on the floor, because she is two and because that is her personality.

Basically children mostly imitate their peers no matter what their parents do. My insane 2 y/o who refuses ever to wear her coat when I tell her, does it cheerfully at preschool because the other children do.

I bet the same can be said of the Yequana children, and doubtless of the French too. It's impossible to buck the village. I bet if children are regularly taken out to nice restaurants where they see other children present and behaving well, and where those other children as well as all the adults present make it clear that that is the social norm, they will learn to do the same almost regardless of what their own parents do.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Qestia*
> 
> I just hated the article because it's not based on actual data, it's based on the three French moms (okay I may be exagerating) the author knows. The plural of anecdote is not data. To base a book or a parenting theory on what a friend of yours tells you is absurd. Oh--her french friend visited a family in California and was horrified that the CA children got their own snacks? So we should be more like the French? What? As someone patiently teaching her 6 and 3 year olds how to get their own snacks... ridiculous.


To be fair, it is excerpted from a book. The article makes it sound like it's just based on a few people, but in the book she explicates more of her research regarding influential thinkers who impacted French parenting, French institutions that influence the ways children are raised, etc.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Hang on. So French kids are well-behaved and never act up in public? Then explain this commercial to me:






Obviously it happens with enough regularity that there is a popular cultural frame of reference for it. Otherwise, the premise of this commercial would be COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL to the French and thus would never have been produced.

Just sayin'.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gcgirl*
> 
> Hang on. So French kids are well-behaved and never act up in public? Then explain this commercial to me:
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that! I thought about it when this thread came up but couldn't remember for sure if it was from France or some other European country. Love it!


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grahamsmom98*
> 
> C'est vrai!


Je ne pense pas que c'est vrai!

I have not read the article (will settle in with a tea first) but in general I have little use for "Swedish mothers are so much better than you ! Or Chinese or &#8230;&#8230;"

Do the best with what you know where you live.

Edited to add: read it - did not think much of it. So much has been well said by posters upthread. I do not live in the USA but I do visit regularly and I do not think your kids are poorly behaved - the premise of the article was wrong from the start, IMHO.

I also don't buy that french parents are superior because their children are better behaved in public (if indeed they are). Parenting is about way more than if your kids can behave in public. My goal as a parent is to produce happy adults who are self sustaining and capable of going after their goals - and the article does not even touch on those kind of issues. Sitting through dinner without throwing your peas is really superficial, IMHO.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I found this article odd as it generalizes so much to be useless. Plenty of American parents do things the same way she describes the French parents and some are even more strict. The best thing about it was the attitude of educating or teaching children, not disciplining them. I think that is probably the most important take-away from that article. I do hate when people just give a throw away line about letting babies cry for a few minutes so they can learn to sleep at 4 months. That works for some babies, not all. Some babies are more prone to fuss a bit to settle themselves down, other babies are more prone to winding themselves up by fussing. It is pretty easy to tell which type of cry your baby is displaying most of the time, but these kind of offhand remarks really hurt parents' confidence in their instincts so folks with the wind up kind of babies end up trying to let them cry for a bit and wasting their time and ending up with a crazy wound up baby instead of listening to their instincts and comforting the baby. I do understand that you don't have to rush to a older baby immediately when they make a peep too, that's the other overboard extreme that folks sometimes think they have to do. Anyway, just a pet peeve as I doubted my instincts quite a few times because of all the garbage I had taken in!


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## tangledblue (Apr 5, 2008)

Maybe somebody already posted a link--but this is pretty funny:

http://www.blogher.com/french-parents-are-superior-fact-most-other-parents-are-better-you-are


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tangledblue*
> 
> Maybe somebody already posted a link--but this is pretty funny:
> 
> http://www.blogher.com/french-parents-are-superior-fact-most-other-parents-are-better-you-are


That is perfect...just perfect. Thanks for the link.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tangledblue*
> 
> Maybe somebody already posted a link--but this is pretty funny:
> 
> http://www.blogher.com/french-parents-are-superior-fact-most-other-parents-are-better-you-are


Brilliant! Lol!


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

I'm having a flashback. Last year I was on a plane ride from CA to MA. In the two rows behind me were a french family with four kids.They had two boys who were WILD. Because my son is the same way, I enjoyed their wildness (it wasn't tantrumy, rather playful, like my son) and they and my daughter (it was just the two of us) had a great time playing. But is that the kind of french child these books purport to say exists? Mais non. They were down right American in demeanor... in a good way.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

I read the article and do think much of it was written to get attention.

I was raised by a German father and spent a great deal of time around German aunts, grandparents and cousins. I recognized every thing the author mentions in her article when she talks about French methods, it was the same in our house. (except we were German)

I don't know that it was better or worse practice when compared to my all-American friend's families back in the late 70s through the 80s but it was noticably different. My father could barely tolerate some of my friends, their manners and actions drove him bats. He spent a great deal of time educating them against their will.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

I always LOL when I read this or someone tells me this. Everytime I have been to France, those rude people are always out of town. Believe me, I have looked for these rude people there and I have never met them! Why are they always gone when I go? Or maybe its just me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Having traveled all over and *lived quite a few places, I've found the French to be the overall rudest people*.
> 
> ...


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

We are American and raise our children very American. Anywhere we go in the world, we are Americans to those receiving us. Although we did the whole AP thing as they were babies, we do a similar version as they grow. We value their input, we love having discussions and there is plenty of great food to eat at their disposal. We love raising our daughters but we do have rules. Yes, its 5pm and you cannot snack anymore, dinner is in an hour or so. We are all going to talk about our day, but no none of us are going to interupt who is talking or talk over anyone. If Daddy is speaking, let him finish and then ask your question. The same goes with the phonecalls, unless of course you are bleeding or the house is on fire. My kids behave in dining places and eat what is there. Then again, on the flipside, we make it easier. We dont wait until we are all starving to think about eating while everyone is crankly, hungry, low blood sugar etc. It makes a happier mealtime unlike friends of ours who for whatever reason have not figured out that each and everyday, the family is going to want to eat sometime between 5 and 7pm. At least 3 times a week mealtime is a nightmare for them but I am the crazy one for meal planning.

We used to take our kids out as tots, even with our first, she learned at a week old to go out for dinner. Of course I nursed her and she was passed out "milk drunk" as DH used to love to say before we left. but we would work around that and have a nice meal. Sometimes feeding her beforehand when we knew she would crash, we would eat while she slept on the booth seat next to us. But again, this is not american vs french parents but just an easy going tot. Taking a fussy baby out is not going to work at all. Sometimes just letting her run all over the place at a park while vacationing and THEN going for a meal worked out really well. I would agree, I know several families who the kids are ruling the day and the parents are on eggshells not to upset them. That is not AP, that is not GD, that is just they need to learn how to parent these kids. Some of the kids are tots, a lot of them are school aged or teens. DH and I always say how we feel for these parents future DILs and SILs because they are doing them a tremendous disservice to their future marriages.


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## Coral123 (Jan 29, 2011)

I haven't read the Pamela Druckerman book but I have seen quite a bit of press about it. I don't believe that all American parents are as she presents them, for one. My own impression was that CIO was being advocated, even if she doesn't come out and say it.

Has anyone here read Perfect Madness by Judith Warner...it has some similar messages to this book, and makes motherhood sound like total drudgery. Warner also spent time in France.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

What she says about sleep practices in the book is roughly as follows: if you get babies used to soothing themselves back to sleep when they are in light sleep phases in the first three months of life, they'll develop that habit and STTN thereafter. If not, then some CIO will probably be necessary. Going along with the idea that babies understand more than they think we do, the author and her husband did CIO with their daughter at 8 months, after learning the previously stated information, and she cried for something like 20 minutes the first night, then 10, then 5, and then not at all after that. They concluded that she was waking because they expected her to (ref. babies understanding more than we think). Not sure about that.


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## Coral123 (Jan 29, 2011)

There is a soon to be released book by Karen Le Billon called French Kids Eat Everything. She has a blog and she seems to be fairly dismissive of parents on this side of the pond as compared to the French. She is Canadian.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Amys1st*
> 
> I always LOL when I read this or someone tells me this. Everytime I have been to France, those rude people are always out of town. Believe me, I have looked for these rude people there and I have never met them! Why are they always gone when I go? Or maybe its just me.


Sorry, Amys1st, just saw this post and have to concur that I too have not experienced these so-called rude French. The French were actually the most accomodating and sincere people I came across in Europe. I think they appreciated that I at least tried to speak French (as bad as my French is) and they overlooked my disgraceful communication skills I think, in part, because I was at least trying. My experiences with the French, both in France and here, have been nothing but positive.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Coral123*
> 
> She is Canadian.


Well, that explains everything!


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