# Please tell me what I'm doing wrong?? Is it me?



## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

My DD (7) has always been headstrong, but she's becoming really mouthy lately. I just don't know how to effectively parent her sometimes. I've read the books (Spirited Child, Children the Challenge, Unconditional Parenting). Nothing seems to fit/work. She doesn't act like this with her dad...I'm the lucky one.

Just a quick example (but a typical one). Today when I picked her up from school, I told her what we would be doing...going home for a snack and to relax a little, have a bath (she was filthy from playing in the woods) and then go out to choose flowers for her teacher (special day tomorrow). She asked if she could have a certain treat for her lunch, and I said ok, we'd pick it up while we were out.

When we got home, I had a nice snack ready for her (so not blood-sugar related). And I let her relax. Then I got her bath ready. She was not interested in having a bath, but I explained she had to get clean/wash her hair before we go out. She started the whole routine (mouthy, cranky, etc). I just stayed calm and walked with her to the bathroom. Long story short, she refused to wash her (dirty, tangled, sweaty) hair. Not sure why since she generally doesn't mind. And I had no choice but to get it washed right then...we had to get going (I only had the vehicle available to me for a short while), and I wouldn't even be able to get a comb through her hair tomorrow if it doesn't get washed (for the record...she wouldn't care, but I would not send her like that).

I calmly tried to explain a few times that (a) her hair was dirty and (b) we needed to hurry up. Anyway, she was being so rude and difficult, that I finally told her she was staying home and we were not getting the lunch treat.

She later was all nice to me (manipulative!), but once she asked me sweetly if she could please have the lunch treat and I said no, she went crazy. Crying, yelling, being very rude. She was ranting on and on. And she's mean when she's angry. I tried reasoning. I tried ignoring her. I finally went to the bathroom and just cried. And cried and cried. I hate that I feel like I'm not in control. This sounds crazy, but it almost feels like an abusive relationship.







lol She is so difficult sometimes! And I do so much for the child. I had even surprised her with a glass that she had been wanting (for her juice) when she came home from school.

I just am not sure how to parent her effectively, and I feel like I'm failing. I am a very sensitive person, and I find it so hard to have someone I love ranting and raving at me. I would NEVER have acted like this as a child. Is something wrong with her? Am I a pushover? Is she spoiled? I just don't know anymore. Do other people have these types of issues?!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't have any idea in general, but in this case it sounds like she was maybe a little overtired. Like she just needed to go home and relax and not go back out. Does that sound plausible to you?


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

It does, but it isn't a one-time thing. She feels that she can be really rude and disrespectful to me (but not her dad). Considering all I do for her (don't get me wrong...he's a great father, but I'm the one who is always thinking of her and doing nice little things for her), it just hurts to be treated like that. Even by a 7 year old. Her main trigger is not getting her own way. Be that not getting to go for ice cream when we are out, not getting a toy from a store, not getting to stay longer at a playdate). She gets so rude/angry (and it is always directed at me).

I love her so much, but I know if anyone was watching they would think she's a spoiled brat.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Does it by any chance happen mostly when she is overtired? Also, if she sees more of you than of her dad, it might just be that she simply has more opportunity to act bratty towards you, and not anything about you per se. Sorry, that's all more about addressing the surface, but I don't have any ideas about anything else (except I have heard friends talk about "attitude" from 7-year-olds but I don't know details about it).


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## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

NAK - I have no advice, but just wanted to say I can TOTALLY relate.

My six year old dd is the SAME way...ugh. More later...when I'm not nak'ing!


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## corysmilk (Jan 2, 2004)

mama, I am so sorry your going thru this with dd. it could be her age?

I was thinking, you know that sometimes they way I talk to the chidren sets them off. instead of saying its bath time. I 'll "ask" them do you want to have a bath, then if they say no, then what am I supposed to do? I am not saying you do this, but it happens around here. I am trying to stopp this behavoiur of mine.

I am sure its a stage, if you always stick to what you say, like not giving her the lunch treat, you'll be helping her, and you. I have an almost teenager and I would give in time and time again. She can be a nightmare sometimes. please don't do what I did.

I get so emotionally involved in how my kids are feeling, I want them to just be happy all the time. but, things need to be done and sometimes feelings get hurt or expectaions are let down.

(hug)
elizabeth


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## Girlprof (Jun 11, 2007)

You know, it actually sounds to me like you're doing fine. You made a reasonable request. She refused. You told her what the consequence would be and she still refused. You didn't give in on the treat, right? Sure, she's mad. She needs to be upset about it or the idea of a consequence won't work.

Trying to hurry a child is hard. I have a six year old and he is a major dawdler. So I try to get started on things early enough that we'll have enough time and not need to rush. That being said, you had a time frame during which the car was available and she needed to be ready then. That seems like a very reasonable expectation. She didn't manage it and so she lost something nice.

It is not always fun, this parenting business. Some phases are worse than others and you may be in a bad phase with her. But your overall approach sounds totally fine to me. Hang in there!


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Okay thank you so much! I guess I really just need to work on my "passive aggressive" behavior. When she is really rude to me, I withdraw from her. I tell her to go watch a movie and I just kind of ignore her for the rest of the night. The reason is that I'm so hurt over how she acted and how mean she is at times. This isn't mature behavior (I know), so I need to work on getting a grip.







I should not be thrown in a tizzy by a 7 year old's words/actions.

And yes, I too get way too wrapped up in her emotions. I want her to be happy. I feel her emotions (which is horrible considering she isn't exactly emotionally stable most of the time).


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## Lovinmum (Aug 22, 2008)

I don't have an older child but I do know that with my two year old.. If I let him know that his tantrum is getting to me, it gets worse. I have had to learn to be very matter of fact about things with him and then walk away. "You wouldn't let me wash your hair, so you lost your special lunch". Then tune him out. Yeah, he still throws a fit at my feet but if he sees its getting to me or I get emotional he feeds on it and he gets more worked up.

I have started to pay more attention to him when he is being sweet to encourage that kind of behavior and it really is doing wonders for us both. I just lay it on really thick when he uses his manners and gush all over him when he is sweet to me. Maybe try that? It makes me feel really weird in public but I have to do what works for us! HTH!


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## MamaHappy (Dec 5, 2009)

I don't have a lot of advice either, but I can totally relate as my 5 year old son can be exactly like that....rude, unreasonable, disrespectful, etc. What sometimes helps with him is to give him choices.....example: "would you like to wash your hair yourself or would you like me to do it?" But I do make it clear that either way, the hair is getting washed. Also, I really don't think it's okay for kids to be rude/disrespectful at any time. It's fine to be angry or disappointed, but disrespectful is just not cool. So when my son is being rude/disrespectful, I have him go to his room and he can come out when he's ready to talk in a respectful way. He usually gets the message pretty quickly. I do make an effort to acknowledge his feelings (whatever those may be) and teach him appropriate things to say/do when he is feeling that way.

Good luck, this parenting thing can be soooo tough, can't it?


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## MamaHappy (Dec 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
Okay thank you so much! I guess I really just need to work on my "passive aggressive" behavior. When she is really rude to me, I withdraw from her. I tell her to go watch a movie and I just kind of ignore her for the rest of the night. The reason is that I'm so hurt over how she acted and how mean she is at times. This isn't mature behavior (I know), so I need to work on getting a grip.







I should not be thrown in a tizzy by a 7 year old's words/actions.

And yes, I too get way too wrapped up in her emotions. I want her to be happy. I feel her emotions (which is horrible considering she isn't exactly emotionally stable most of the time).









Oh, I TOTALLY get what you're saying here! I do the same thing sometimes.... get too emotionally wrapped up in it. It's almost like you have to emotionally disconnect yourself a little bit, if that makes an sense. I have to work hard to just think about the situation in a logical, level-headed way and not let my emotions get the best of me. I notice it gets easier as I practice (but still not easy!







)


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Is it possible that you aren't offering her as many choices as you think you are? You do a lot for her but it may be that you do a lot of things you want to do for her (or to her) but not a lot that she genuinely wants done. My dd tends to have a lot of meltdowns when I am in a controlling mode because it is unusual and because she doesn't do well with being pressured into conforming. I do a lot to try to make every day fun, but when I am to focused on control I tend to choose the fun rather than her and that is not actually very fun for her. I tend to be more tied up in my dd's emotions when I am in this mode also and that makes things worse. When I pull out and don't let her tantrums disturb me I am able to deal with them without owning emotions that aren't mine or making the situations worse. I am also able to see that my request is unreasonable or that I can reasonably give her a choice of timing to follow through with my request.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
Is it possible that you aren't offering her as many choices as you think you are?

I think I am, but who knows I guess. Sometimes there aren't any choices to be had...we need things to happen (ex: we need to go somewhere, we need to do something). So in those cases, there aren't choices. But I think overall she has plenty of leeway/free time. Maybe she doesn't feel that way.

The thing I really struggle with is how to respond to her mouthiness/disrespectful behaviour. I can honestly say my sibling and I would _never_ have talked to my mom the way she talks to me. I don't mean she calls me names or anything. But she is very mouthy ("No, I don't have to!" "I don't care!" "I don't like you" etc). I am very reasonable. I am kind. I try to stay calm/matter of fact and have natural consequences. It is like she wants a power struggle over the dumbest things (like whether or not to brush her teeth before bed). I certainly don't control her every waking moment. In fact, I'm actually a *really* laid back parent. I can never understand why, when we are having a nice time, she wants to ruin it by arguing about something so trivial/routine.

So since what I'm currently doing isn't working well, I am wondering if I should try being more heavy handed and authortarian (SO not me







). I am gentle by nature. I don't like yelling or arguments. Get it so she knows I won't take any attitude/rude behavior and I won't listen to her rant and rave or talk back to me. My friend is like this, and her kids are very well behaved. They would never talk back. I'm jealous. But I want my DD to love/respect/trust me. Not fear me. Oh, parenting is soooooooooo hard.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm not sure you have to be heavy-handed and authoritatian, but it is okay to set boundaries. You don't have to look at it as "I'm the mom and the boss, and she's the kid and has to listen."

To me, it's more, "I'm a people, and she's a people, and people don't talk to each other like that." So, make it about you. YOU are special and important, too. YOU can set some boundaries for YOU. You don't have to teach her that you are the boss, but I believe you do need to teach her that people have boundaries and you will require respect for you. Not because you're the mom, but because you are a person. It's actually an important life lesson for her to learn that SHE can set boundaries for herself, just like her mom set them for herself. If she watches you be a doormat to her rudeness, when she is an adult, she will take on that roll. Will it be her boyfriend, a coworker, or her own child? OR will she learn the words and the need to set some boundaries, and that she is worthy of respect, too?

You can just have a chat with her. "Dd, I love you so much. I like to do things for you and with you, but lately we've had a problem with you being so rude to me. It really hurts me and makes me sad. I want you to know that even though I love you so much, I can't let you talk to me like that. I'm a person, too, and everyone deserves respect. I try so hard to respect you, and I need you to do that for me, too."

I might follow up with discussions about friendship, and how to be a good friend to each other. I'd point out ways I was trying to be a friend to her, and suggest ways she could be a friend to me. I would give her very concrete examples of her choices to tear down instead of build your relationship together. I would assure her that I love her and I want to be her friend and I want to work through this together. That's what friends do. Friends make a choice to help each other even when it's tough. My love and my friendship are bigger than the issue. Friends help friends be better people.

And then, I would give a warning for a while when she started to be rude to me. "Dd, I have told her that I need for you to respect me. Your words are hurtful and rude. Is that how you want to be?" If she says it is, then calmly disengage. "I will not be spoken to in that way." Then you can choose to walk away or send her away. But it is very important that this lesson be taught crystal clear.

In a way, it's NOT about her...it's about YOU being important, too. But in a big way, it IS about her...learning to respect herself from your example.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
My DD (7) has always been headstrong, but she's becoming really mouthy lately. I just don't know how to effectively parent her sometimes. I've read the books (Spirited Child, Children the Challenge, Unconditional Parenting). Nothing seems to fit/work. She doesn't act like this with her dad...I'm the lucky one.

Or she feels safe & secure enough to truly be herself with you

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
Just a quick example (but a typical one). Today when I picked her up from school, I told her what we would be doing...going home for a snack and to relax a little, have a bath (she was filthy from playing in the woods) and then go out to choose flowers for her teacher (special day tomorrow). She asked if she could have a certain treat for her lunch, and I said ok, we'd pick it up while we were out.

You promised her her special treat you should not later have taken this away, thats imo teaching a child to be manipulative

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
When we got home, I had a nice snack ready for her (so not blood-sugar related). And I let her relax. Then I got her bath ready. She was not interested in having a bath, but I explained she had to get clean/wash her hair before we go out. She started the whole routine (mouthy, cranky, etc). I just stayed calm and walked with her to the bathroom. Long story short, she refused to wash her (dirty, tangled, sweaty) hair. Not sure why since she generally doesn't mind. *And I had no choice* but to get it washed right then...we had to get going (I only had the vehicle available to me for a short while), and I wouldn't even be able to get a comb through her hair tomorrow if it doesn't get washed (for the record...she wouldn't care, but I would not send her like that).

Why did you not have a choice?
You do have a choice but you choose to manipulate her into a bath/shower because of your issues regarding her looks and going into public.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
I calmly tried to explain a few times that (a) her hair was dirty and (b) we needed to hurry up. Anyway, she was being so rude and difficult, that I finally told her she was staying home and we were not getting the lunch treat.

And imo it was wrong to take it away from her

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
She later was all nice to me (manipulative!), but once she asked me sweetly if she could please have the lunch treat and I said no, she went crazy. Crying, yelling, being very rude. She was ranting on and on. And she's mean when she's angry. I tried reasoning. I tried ignoring her. I finally went to the bathroom and just cried. And cried and cried. I hate that I feel like I'm not in control. This sounds crazy, but it almost feels like an abusive relationship.







lol She is so difficult sometimes! And I do so much for the child. I had even surprised her with a glass that she had been wanting (for her juice) when she came home from school.

But you are teaching her that manipulation is ok! you are not in control thats the thing when you have 2 people in any relationship both have control over everything. you can either work out a reasonable way to work together or you can be stubborn and do it your way. which obviously results in tantrums fights and hurt on both sides

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
I just am not sure how to parent her effectively, and I feel like I'm failing. I am a very sensitive person, and I find it so hard to have someone I love ranting and raving at me. I would NEVER have acted like this as a child. Is something wrong with her? Am I a pushover? Is she spoiled? I just don't know anymore. Do other people have these types of issues?!

children don't spoil apples do. there is nothing wrong with her we are each individuals just because she isn't like her friends or what ever doesn't make her wong or broken or spoiled or anything.
She sound like a very strong person who knows what she want and doesn't want. That is a good thing. accept that and love that part. but you don't have to accept abuse. when that happens tellher she is being hurtful that you don;t allow anyone to treat you like that and give her the choice to calm down together or seperatly till you can speak kindly.
accept her no's and find other ways to get to the same goal.

I have 3 boys and the number of times I've taken them to market dressed in weird outfits covered in mud i can't remember how often that happens. orhow often they make a choice that I'm not sure about but hey it worked out just fine. I say trust her judgemnet about her needs/wants more and respect her more as an individual and see her as an individual not this naughty/disrespectful child that you need to discipline or she'll spoil


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I agree with mum21andtwins. Your DD needs more respect as an individual. Children learn how to show respect by being respected. I wouldn't try to force my 4.5 to take a shower or bath. Your DD also might not be getting enough sleep. If it's under 10 hours a day it's not enough.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

I think you are doing fine. I find that the behaviour you are describing, is fairly normal for the age.







She is trying to get her way, and gets very upset and angry when she can't have it. I don't know what you can do apart from continuing to be respectful but consistent: You told her that you were going to do x, y, and z when you came home - if y doesn't happen, it makes sense that z can't happen. Conflicts can't always be avoided.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
continuing to be respectful

But she wasn't respectful??


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
But she wasn't respectful??

I don't see that at all; I think she was doing quite a good job.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
She doesn't act like this with her dad...I'm the lucky one.
<SNIP>

She asked if she could have a certain treat for her lunch, and I said ok, we'd pick it up while we were out.
<SNIP>
(for the record...she wouldn't care, but I would not send her like that).
<SNIP>
Anyway, she was being so rude and difficult, that I finally told her she was staying home and we were not getting the lunch treat.
<SNIP>
She later was all nice to me (manipulative!),
<SNIP>
I would NEVER have acted like this as a child. Is something wrong with her? Am I a pushover? Is she spoiled? I just don't know anymore. Do other people have these types of issues?!

How are these things respectful??


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
How are these things respectful??

I don't see a problem with anything she has written. I am not interested in discussing this further, and am leaving this thread.

Good luck, OP!


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

The rule was, before they go out, she needed a bath. No bath=no going out. She couldn't go get the treat because she didn't take a bath.
That's not disrespectful.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
The rule was, before they go out, she needed a bath. No bath=no going out. She couldn't go get the treat because she didn't take a bath.
That's not disrespectful.

,
No it wasn't copied from the OP:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
My DD (7) She asked if she could have a certain treat for her lunch, and I said ok, we'd pick it up while we were out.
<SNIP>
Then I got her bath ready. She was not interested in having a bath, but I explained she had to get clean/wash her hair before we go out.

the snac was promised and later a condition was added for that snack that IS disrespectful.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

OP here. Thanks for your opinions, everyone. It totally helps to talk this out. I honestly am trying to be a good parent. I try to respect her. I am not trying to be a control freak. But if I let her just decide on everything, it would be chaos here...remember, she's 7.

We did have to wash her hair. It was tangled, dirty and sweaty. That was the only time we had to have a bath....I wasn't that concerned about her being dirty when we ran our errands. But if she didn't wash her hair, it would still be dirty the next morning for school. Yes, I admit...I'm not ok with her decision to attend a special day at school with nasty hair. I'm not going to respect that decision because to me that would bad parenting. And as well, it would reflect badly on me. I wasn't asking anything unreasonable of her. A very quick bath is no big deal (and it isn't like she has an issue with baths...she was just choosing to be difficult).

As well, I did promise her a special treat for lunch. But the way I think about it is this: It was a treat. It was a privilege (not an automatic right). It was something nice I was going to do for her. She lost that privilege by refusing to wash her hair so we could go on our errands. And being super-mouthy. Why would I want to go out of my way to do something kind for someone who is rude to me? Am I missing something?


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

Not at all and you are being waaay more calm about it with her than I would be-but I guess I'm just more disrespectful than most.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
OP here. Thanks for your opinions, everyone. It totally helps to talk this out. I honestly am trying to be a good parent. I try to respect her. I am not trying to be a control freak. But if I let her just decide on everything, it would be chaos here...remember, she's 7.

I dont think anyone was saying you aren't trying to be a good parent!
I have to say that I disagree slightly you regarding your dd making her own decisions on everything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
We did have to wash her hair. It was tangled, dirty and sweaty. That was the only time we had to have a bath....I wasn't that concerned about her being dirty when we ran our errands. But if she didn't wash her hair, it would still be dirty the next morning for school. Yes, I admit...I'm not ok with her decision to attend a special day at school with nasty hair. I'm not going to respect that decision because to me that would bad parenting. And as well, it would reflect badly on me. I wasn't asking anything unreasonable of her. A very quick bath is no big deal (and it isn't like she has an issue with baths...she was just choosing to be difficult).

Maybe not in your mind but obviously she had reason to think it unreasonable. why could she not have a bath before school? or before bedtime?
And why would it be bad parenting? And why do you care what someone else thinks?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
As well, I did promise her a special treat for lunch. But the way I think about it is this: It was a treat. It was a privilege (not an automatic right). It was something nice I was going to do for her. She lost that privilege by refusing to wash her hair so we could go on our errands. And being super-mouthy. Why would I want to go out of my way to do something kind for someone who is rude to me? Am I missing something?

Because you love her unconditionally, because you said you would and why should there be strings attached?
And why should she obey you with everything when she doesn't want to? and why when someone is not respecting her wants/needs should she treat that person with respect?

I feel very strongly that a child should have full ownership over their bodies at all times. not "allowing" them ownership over their own bodies is a dangerous thing ime.

I am also not being snarky but genuinly asking those questions.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

OP, I feel your pain. My DD is 6 1./2 and very much the same. She IS a spirited child. Her big issues are transitions, sleep and a few food additive sensitivities.

I think the first thing you need to do for yourself is examine why you feel so hurt by her words. Is she triggering some unresolved feelings from your past? I find it much harder to deal with the "venom" coming from DD when she uses phrases that are similar to the people in my life that have hurt me.

Next you need to grow a thicker skin. Your DD loves you. She feels safe with you. When she has a verbal tantrum (I think that is what the nasty talk is at this age) remember that she is probably acting out because she is overwhelmed. Overwhelmed with a situation, with an emotion, whatever. I doubt very seriously that she "doesn't like you". She's just an overwhelmed child that does not know how to control her own, obviously very strong, emotions very well yet.

I always make peace with DD after a tantrum. I will giver her a hug, tell her I love her, and we move on. I don't hold a grudge or treat the outburst as a behavior issue with lasting repercussions. *This single action as greatly improved out relationship and her behavior.* I'm not saying that she no longer tantrums or speaks to me like I am garbage at times, but things have become much less dramatic and are over sooner. We are both happier.

There is an excellent article about tantruming her at MDC. Reading really changed my perspective on what's going on. Just because our kids are older than toddlers does not mean that the wisdom in the article does not apply. (I looked for it to post a link but could not find it. Does anyone else know the tantrum atricle I'm talking about and have a link?)

My DD can have a horrible time with transitions. I have found giving her lots of warning if something needs to happen quickly or if we are changing up an established routine. If I don't, and a change is sprung on her and she is tiered, hungry or just cranky she often loosed it.

I also had to stop worrying about what other people think about me, my DD or my parenting. My goal is to get through the day as smoothly as possible and to meet everyones needs the best I can. Sometimes that means DD goes out in a mismatched outfit, with less than neat and clean hair. Sometimes that means DD has an epic tantrum because it's time to leave the park because her little brother needs to go home for a nap. Sometimes she has to wait because I'm finishing a meal, a conversation, going to the bathroom... (you get the idea) and being nasty or disruptive just means she has to wait longer.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
Not at all and you are being waaay more calm about it with her than I would be-but I guess I'm just more disrespectful than most.









I think I love you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
Maybe not in your mind but obviously she had reason to think it unreasonable. why could she not have a bath before school? or before bedtime?
And why would it be bad parenting? And why do you care what someone else thinks?

I do appreciate your response. I just think we have totally different parenting styles. I couldn't be this way personally. I feel like kids need guidance and loving authority. I don't believe 5, 6, 7 year olds are always capable of making choices that are in their best interest. If she was totally in charge of her own body/life, she'd never brush her teeth and she'd eat lollipops for breakfast. And I do care what other people think. I don't want people judging my child at school if she's dirty. Also, I didn't think I needed to get into all the details, but there were real reasons why on this particular day she had to have her bath right then. I am not unreasonable or rigid. If she could have had a bath before school or before bed, that would have been fine. She couldn't this time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I think the first thing you need to do for yourself is examine why you feel so hurt by her words. Is she triggering some unresolved feelings from your past?

Yes, very good point. And the answer is yes. Some of her words do bring up some insecurities.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

I don't think that she is too young to understand that what she is saying hurts you. I too have a 7yo, while she is not nearly extreme as your dd, she does have a bad attitude sometimes and can say hurtful things off the cuff.
I think that enforcing with her that her words are hurtful to you is something that needs to be done consistently.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I think you did fine, brokenheart. There are times when things have to happen and kids have to do things. I have four kids who hate to get their hair wet. Because I'm not going to allow poor hygeine, the hair gets washed. (The same way that brushing your teeth is not an option).


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 

Maybe not in your mind but obviously she had reason to think it unreasonable. why could she not have a bath before school? or before bedtime?
And why would it be bad parenting? And why do you care what someone else thinks?

<snip>

I feel very strongly that a child should have full ownership over their bodies at all times. not "allowing" them ownership over their own bodies is a dangerous thing ime.

I am also not being snarky but genuinly asking those questions.

This is a totally wild guess, but if any custody issue were ever to come up, it would "look good" for the OP if her child doesn't go out in public looking unkempt.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I think you did fine, brokenheart. There are times when things have to happen and kids have to do things. I have four kids who hate to get their hair wet. Because I'm not going to allow poor hygeine, the hair gets washed. (The same way that brushing your teeth is not an option).

Although I do insist on hair-washing, I'm not sure about this analogy. Dirty hair won't cause hair-decay or heart disease.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
The rule was, before they go out, she needed a bath. No bath=no going out. She couldn't go get the treat because she didn't take a bath.
That's not disrespectful.

If this is a long established rule then enforcing it makes sense. If this is a rule that was made up on the spot then it was more of a command than a rule. Some of what happened may be her reaction to a change in her routine, especially if she likes routine a lot. When I have to change things drastically I prepare myself for my dd's complaints so I don't respond in a way that makes things worse. I also do the broken record explanation or why we must change things with a view towards the happy things we will be doing and don't let myself get sucked into a negative interaction (most days).

I don't think anything is wrong with your dd. I would talk like that and worse to my mother when I was a child and she was very authoritarian and strongly believed in hitting us. I didn't like anything that seemed remotely controlling or unfair. A new expectation would have been totally unfair to me and I would have resisted it heavily. Remember that controlling and unfair is from her perception and not yours so you may be perfectly reasonable but she doesn't think you are. Have you tried talking to her about what happened and what her perception was and just listening to what she says? How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk has wonderful tips and conversation starters for conversations with kids of all ages. This book is very helpful for learning to listen to your child while also helping them meet your expectations.


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## mumkimum (Nov 14, 2006)

My dd has tendencies to act similarily with my dh - instigating yelling/arguing when he's trying to get her to do something. It happens way less with me (though still goes on sometimes, duh, we're people). But my take on it is that:
1. Avoid rushing - lots of reminders about what needs to happen as nicely as possible, and reminders about how we don't want to miss or forget things because we end up having to rush
2. When she starts yelling/arguing with me, I do my best to stay calm and tell her directly how frustrating this situation is, what I'm in particular worried about, and possibly how hurtful something she's said was. And (as long as we've got time to do it - and really this is the best thing we've found for diffusing the arguments) I'll let her know I need to go elsewhere in the house to calm down, get a drink of water or something, and then I'll come back and we'll solve our problem. When I get back I often ask dd first what she thinks we should do about our problem, and she'll usually come up with what I want to happen anyway and be willing to go ahead and get it done when it's 'her' idea, which is fine - I don't have to be in charge of how things happen as long as we're accomplishing whatever it is we need to do.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

count me in as a mommy who thinks you did a pretty good job-- maybe not perfect, but I'm fairly certain that I haven't been a perfect parent on any day. My DD1 is younger (almost 5) but spends a lot of time with 6 and 7 year olds (before and after care at school) and I've seen a DRAMATIC increase in the exact behavior you are talking about.

First, I don't think it is disrespectful to be a human to your child. To me, that means that a kid your DDs age (or mine) can understand that certain interpersonal behaviors have real-life consequences. For example, if my DD is rude, difficult, mean etc to me- a natural consequence (not a punnishment) would be that I now have hurt feelings, am tired from how difficult she's made things, and am in NO mood to go do special things or get treats. on the flip side, there are plenty of fun times and surprise treats and privledges in her life- and (especially after becoming a big sister and having more responsibility) she certainly sees that days where she makes things "easy" for mommy means that I have more energy and am WAY more likely to do spontaneous and fun things/treats.

secondly, I totaly agree that it is OK for you to want DD to have a reasonable appearance in school. I think there is a big difference between wanting her to "look a certain way" for others, versus having minimum hygiene standards. needing a hair wash before the next day is fine (especially if she has say in other areas of appearance- like picking her clothes) but maybe you could have been flexible about the bath time. We usually do bath before school here (and this is with one parent having to leave by 6:45 am) because DD is too tired to behave and move quickly at night.

Another thought- if you really had to rush through the after school time to get back out, how about making the bath time the relaxing fun time? when we DO do daytime baths, I usually put DD in (at almost 5, I feel she's old enough to play in the bath alone while I'm in my room (attached) putting away laundry or relaxing) and give her a chunk of time to play. we do bubbles and/or food coloring in the bath. I give her a count down to hair washing and remind her that the sooner we do it, the more play time is left afterwards. Maybe you could have really rocked her world and given her a messy treat she could have eaten right in the bath as the water filled up? DD once had a majorly drippy popsicle in the bath because we didn't ahve time for dessert AND bath- she was thrilled and i got her clean!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
)

As well, I did promise her a special treat for lunch. But the way I think about it is this: It was a treat. It was a privilege (not an automatic right). It was something nice I was going to do for her. She lost that privilege by refusing to wash her hair so we could go on our errands. And being super-mouthy. Why would I want to go out of my way to do something kind for someone who is rude to me? Am I missing something?


Do you think she understood the cause and effect of this? Maybe try to spend some calm time with her at bedtime and explain how you see this situation (which repeats itself too often).

I don't know if you need to be more authoritarian but you might need to be clearer what youre expectations are, behavior wise. Respect is a big, heavy concept for young people to grasp, but manners and kindness are easier. So what if you tell her that bad manners, rudeness, and unkindness are no longer acceptable in your home? You might need to write down the kind of positive behavior that you are looking for so when she starts being rude you can say "Is this kind? Is what you said to me polite? Because rudeness is not allowed here." Because it's not really about washing her hair, it's about the what gets said and done in the process.

One caution I will give you, is that you seem hurt that she doesn't recognize the special things you do for her. She is a child and in general, gratitude seems like something you learn over the years. You need to do nice things for people because you want to do them, not because you expect something in return. Buying her a special juice cup is not likely to matter one way or another to her at this age...and in a way, that's good., and a nice example of how _unconditional_ her love for you is as a child.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 

My DD can have a horrible time with transitions. I have found giving her lots of warning if something needs to happen quickly or if we are changing up an established routine. If I don't, and a change is sprung on her and she is tiered, hungry or just cranky she often loosed it.

After reading all the responses, this is what I'm wondering too - does she mostly melt down and become disrespectful when you guys are having a busy day? I'm not saying you should stay home all the time, but maybe having a lot going on triggers this behavior? I totally understand that sometimes you have to run errands or go out, but I do think all the busyness in our lives affects our kids (and us) negatively.

But count me in as one who thinks you did a pretty good job. It's easy to Monday-morning quarterback your parenting, but not so easy when you're trying to think clearly in the thick of it. Probably the one thing I would change is (if I had thought of it) I would have given her a choice to bathe now or at bedtime. But I doubt that getting just one more choice would have made much difference, honestly.

On the issue of denying the treat: I can see it both ways. I do think that taking away the treat was probably more of an emotional reaction on your part (hope I'm not overstepping here). I do the same thing with DS and regret it later. The treat wasn't explicitly contingent on any expectation of behavior, and it may have been an opportunity to make peace in the middle of war, so to speak, if you had both taken a break and sat down to enjoy the treat. Maybe the scenario I'm imagining was impossible in the situation, but I'm starting to agree with the poster who said it wasn't right to take the treat away. I think it wasn't related to anything that was going on, so it was more of an arbitrary punishment.

Good luck! I don't know what it's like to have a seven-year-old girl, and I know *I* never behaved that way at seven.

Oh! One more thing - does she have a strong attachment with her peers? I wonder if you should read "Hold on to Your Kids" - it clarified for me one of the difficulties with disrespectful children, which is a stronger peer orientation than parent orientation. Just something to look into, though it may not apply in your case.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
On the issue of denying the treat: I can see it both ways. I do think that taking away the treat was probably more of an emotional reaction on your part (hope I'm not overstepping here).

..............................
I wonder if you should read "Hold on to Your Kids" - it clarified for me one of the difficulties with disrespectful children, which is a stronger peer orientation than parent orientation. Just something to look into, though it may not apply in your case.

Yes, I love that book! Yes, it was an emotional reaction on my part. I figured....DD is sitting here making my life difficult and arguing with me when I have a very limited amount of time to get our stuff done. I wasn't feeling that great, and I didn't want to expend more energy arguing about nonsense (I truly don't believe this is about washing hair....it is a power struggle IMO). I asked her a couple of times what would make it better....warmer water? cooler water? did she want me to help her? I don't know why she feels the need to struggle for power...she has lots of power over many, many facets of her life. But anyway....

If she was just arguing with me, dawdling, etc., I could handle it. But when she starts saying outright "NO" and trying to make it impossible for me to get her hair washed and being rude to me, _I think she needs to have a consequence at that point._ I'm trying to follow the concept of "natural consequences". So to me, a natural consequence is that if she is wasting so much time arguing with me, she's not ready in time and she can't come with me on the errands. AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.









Okay, for some reason I thought you had already picked up the treat. That does change the scenario I was thinking of.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:

Yes, I love that book! Yes, it was an emotional reaction on my part. I figured....DD is sitting here making my life difficult and arguing with me when I have a very limited amount of time to get our stuff done. I wasn't feeling that great, and I didn't want to expend more energy arguing about nonsense (I truly don't believe this is about washing hair....it is a power struggle IMO). I asked her a couple of times what would make it better....warmer water? cooler water? did she want me to help her? I don't know why she feels the need to struggle for power...she has lots of power over many, many facets of her life. But anyway...
I have these days too. Children with this kind of personality can be exasperating.

Quote:

If she was just arguing with me, dawdling, etc., I could handle it. But when she starts saying outright "NO" and trying to make it impossible for me to get her hair washed and being rude to me, _I think she needs to have a consequence at that point._ I'm trying to follow the concept of "natural consequences". So to me, a natural consequence is that if she is wasting so much time arguing with me, she's not ready in time and she can't come with me on the errands. AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.








I have also started enforcing natural consequences for mouthy, hurtful behavior. At 7, I think it's age appropriate to do so.

I think to be fair, the child does need a heads up that a natural consequence is about to happen. Something like, "Stop yelling at me and being so difficult. If we don't get your hair washed in the next 5 minutes than we will have run out of time and will not be able to go to the store for x,y,z." Of course I have to make sure I am not yelling too and I let DD know that we can go to the store next time we have the car.

By giving a heads up there is no room for "I didn't know." By giving a time when we will go to the store I feel like I am addressing the inappropriate behavior and it's consequences rather than being punitive and taking away a treat.

It's not easy to be so rational and fair when DD's pushed my buttons though.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
: I don't believe 5, 6, 7 year olds are always capable of making choices that are in their best interest. If she was totally in charge of her own body/life, she'd never brush her teeth and she'd eat lollipops for breakfast. And I do care what other people think. I don't want people judging my child at school if she's dirty. Also, I didn't think I needed to get into all the details, but there were real reasons why on this particular day she had to have her bath right then. I am not unreasonable or rigid. If she could have had a bath before school or before bed, that would have been fine. She couldn't this time.

My 4.5 DD year is, except for physical emergencies like severe injuries, is in charge of her own body. She does brush her teeth or we don't buy anything with sugar in it. She eats whatever she wants, that we have, for breakfast. I don't brush her hair if she doesn't want me to, she takes baths and showers when she wants, and she wears what she wants. We've always respected her personal physical autonomy so maybe she's used to having choice, but we do not have chaos. She is fairly co-operative and we don't have a lot of behavioral drama. In your situation where your DD "needed a bath right then" mine would have had the option of cleaning up instead. We've had times when my DD has been too dirty to be in the house without getting everything dirty. Washing her hands, feet and face along with a change of clothes is enough. We respect my DDs right to say no to a bath, but we have the right to say "ewww you can't bring that gross 'whatever' in the house, you need to wash your hands/feet/etc.".

Another issue is your reaction to your DD being upset. When a child has a tantrum it's helpful to not take their behavior and words personal. Staying calm helps them calm down too. When you get really upset it can be scary. Since you showed your DD that getting her treat was dependent on being nice by taking it away for being rude, her idea that being nice would get it is logical.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

My 7 yo DD acts like this sometimes. I try to ignore her and let it pass. Later when she asks me for something, I reply, "I'm sorry, but I don't do favors for people who treat me badly." And I don't do it.

I refuse to be treated badly by anyone. And she needs to learn what MY boundaries are. I figure it is also teaching her not to allow others to treat her badly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
It does, but it isn't a one-time thing. She feels that she can be really rude and disrespectful to me (but not her dad). Considering all I do for her (don't get me wrong...he's a great father, but I'm the one who is always thinking of her and doing nice little things for her), it just hurts to be treated like that. Even by a 7 year old. Her main trigger is not getting her own way. Be that not getting to go for ice cream when we are out, not getting a toy from a store, not getting to stay longer at a playdate). She gets so rude/angry (and it is always directed at me).

I love her so much, but I know if anyone was watching they would think she's a spoiled brat.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
But when she starts saying outright "NO" and trying to make it impossible for me to get her hair washed and being rude to me, _I think she needs to have a consequence at that point._ I'm trying to follow the concept of "natural consequences". So to me, a natural consequence is that if she is wasting so much time arguing with me, she's not ready in time and she can't come with me on the errands. AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.









So at what age can your DD say NO and expect anyone to respect it? The natural consequence of not washing your hair is having dirty hair, not staying home. That's a punishment. Actually the idea that your DD "needs to have a consequence" is punitive. If your relationship with your DD is built on rewards and punishment you can expect drama because your DD is going to have hurt feelings, get angry, and learn to be manipulative. Using rewards and punishment is manipulative and controlling in nature. It's your choice, one of the alternatives is to base the relationship on respect and use guidance and modeling appropriate behaviors to help your DD make good choices herself. When the parent-child relationship is adversarial, strong willed or persistent children who resent the idea of being _made_ to do things are going to be upset, angry, or rude. If you want to continue having a punitive parenting style you need to become thick skinned, because if your 7 year old DD can hurt your feelings, just wait until she's 13 and hormonal.


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## reignbelle (Feb 13, 2010)

I would not have taken the snack away. It had nothing to do with the problem. Also you said you try to do natural consequences. The natrural consequences for being rude is not loss of snack. That being said she shouldn't be rude. She may need help managing her anger Ioappropriately. Helping her reword herself may help. She didn't really mean "i dont Like you" (im positive she loves you) she meant "i dislike your decision" yelling obviously is wrong and she should calm down in a appropriate way. Have a talk about things she could do to calm down (i take a shower, my husband plays guitar, brother has a punching bag, my 3 yearold cries and colors) I want to say also that ignoring her may make it worse. My ex did this. I always became pissed at him for it. I knew any disagreement would lead to the cold shoulder. I just read your post explaining your though on natural consequence. I think denying the snack because she made you r un out of time and you explained that. if she didn't hurry there wouldn't be time for snack then not getting it was a natural co.sequence. if you decided not to get the snack to be spiteful (you didn't help me so I won't help you now) then I would disagree. I would have gotten thw snack in hopes of modeling forgives.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

I think that it is a natural consequence. "You have to take a bath before we go to the store (where the snack is)."
She did not take a bath. They did not go to the store. Therefore, there was no way the snack would be able to be purchased.
I see nothing wrong with expecting her 7 year old to be clean when going to the store if that is what is expected in her family. I personally wouldn't care, but that's what she wants. It doesn't make it wrong.

I told my daughter that her bedroom has to be cleaned before she goes to her friend's party tomorrow. Are the two events "really" connected? No. But, that's my rule. And, no she doesn't have to clean her room, but if she wants to go to the party, she'll clean her room.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Yes!







This is how the real world works.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
I told my daughter that her bedroom has to be cleaned before she goes to her friend's party tomorrow. Are the two events "really" connected? No. But, that's my rule. And, no she doesn't have to clean her room, but if she wants to go to the party, she'll clean her room.


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## northcountrymamma (Feb 24, 2006)

I think this situation has been well analyzed by many different parenting styles...

I just wanted to chime in to comment on the timing of the situation.

re: a bath before going out.

to many people a bath is a very relaxing and settling thing. Going out is the opposite of this, stimulating and for many unsettling...

I would have gone out first and ended the day with a bath...from our experiences with dd (6), a bath has to come at the end of the day or it creates anxieties about it...

Maybe the order of things created the chaos?

But I know this is just one situation, dd is also quite rude to me sometimes, but I think it's because she feels safe to express herself fully to me and sometimes that expression is a little on the rude side.








you're on the right track mamma...6 and 7 are tough ages with girls as they move away from mamma dependence and towards independence.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions/comments. I honestly feel a lot better now. I was PMSy when this happened, and I've also realized I'm probaby a bit of a "push over" when it comes to DD. Only because I just love her and want her to be happy. But honestly, after 7 years of parenting her I guess I can say that an overly gentle, permissive style doesn't work well on her. She's "bold" (for lack of a better word). I certainly don't want to squash her spirit (that boldness may serve her well as an adult), but I want to maintain some sense of order in my home, and I don't want her viewing me as a marshmallow. I am the adult, and I have her very best interests at heart...I cannot allow her to lead the way.

So anyway, all this leads me to realize I have to try to be firmer (yet still loving and respectful). She has plenty of choice, but when I tell her something needs to be done a certain way, she must listen. It would be different if she were 11/12/13. But she's 7 (and a rather young 7). I'm still in control.

I know she's still love me, and perhaps even respect me more. Her dad is much firmer than I am (he does not put up with any nonsense). He also isn't always concerned about her emotions (ex: if we have to go somewhere and she's not happy about it, it doesn't bother him...he allows her to feel annoyed as long as she isn't being rude or disruptive). This is all opposite of how I behave. And the bottom line? She ADORES her dad (and I know she adores me too). She isn't the least bit resentful of his parenting style. And when he's looking after her, there is never EVER any drama. Because she respects him and listens to him.

Now....I just need to figure out how to put all this into practice. LOL


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
Although I do insist on hair-washing, I'm not sure about this analogy. Dirty hair won't cause hair-decay or heart disease.

No, but for my children, it would exacerbate their weird scalp issues. So it could cause uncomfortable-ness for them.

Plus, if my kids were in school (and they're not), I would be treating their hair with tea tree oil to ward off lice.

Quote:

And the bottom line? She ADORES her dad (and I know she adores me too). She isn't the least bit resentful of his parenting style. And when he's looking after her, there is never EVER any drama. Because she respects him and listens to him.
I hate to over generalize here, but that could be a girl thing. I listened to my dad growing up, but I always gave my mom a hard time, up until I moved out.


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## Shahbazin (Aug 3, 2006)

I really like Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot The Dog book http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog...5011043&sr=1-1
It's about positive reinforcement & behavior modification, & while dog trainers pounced on it, it was written for human as well as animal interactions. I'd originally read it as a dog trainer myself







but found it very useful as a teacher, & now as a mom. I do allow my kids a lot of choices, but have certain rules that we don't bend on, I let my kids know what we are doing next & why, & there are known consequences for things (I try not to surprise them). Consistent follow through in the beginning makes for less or no arguing/testing later - they know you mean it, so it doesn't get blown up into a big deal. I learned early on that the worst thing you can do when teaching a dog is to nag them - makes for slow response at best, ignoring you being likely - same applies to kids. I don't ask unreasonable things - their clothes should be reasonably clean (& they should be wearing some!) when we go places, but I'll stick a jacket or something in the car if I think the temperature might call for it (after opining that they might want one, but that they can find out for themselves), & I'm not fussy about what they pick out. So I pick my battles. Doesn't make for perfect interactions always, but we do pretty well most of the time.









I think it's perfectly reaonable to not go out & get a treat while out, if some prep work needed wasn't cooperated with; I would make sure the consequences of non-cooperation were known, & explain why the clean hair was important to me. (I love you, I like to see you looking your best, tomorrow is a special day & it's respectful to other people to be clean & neat, it's part of my job as a mommy to help keep you clean; so, dirty hair is not an option, your choice is to cooperate & go for a trip with me (& get a treat while we're out), or make a fuss & stay home.)


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
Yes, I love that book! Yes, it was an emotional reaction on my part. I figured....DD is sitting here making my life difficult and arguing with me when I have a very limited amount of time to get our stuff done. I wasn't feeling that great, and I didn't want to expend more energy arguing about nonsense (I truly don't believe this is about washing hair....it is a power struggle IMO). I asked her a couple of times what would make it better....warmer water? cooler water? did she want me to help her? I don't know why she feels the need to struggle for power...she has lots of power over many, many facets of her life. But anyway....

If she was just arguing with me, dawdling, etc., I could handle it. But when she starts saying outright "NO" and trying to make it impossible for me to get her hair washed and being rude to me, _I think she needs to have a consequence at that point._ I'm trying to follow the concept of "natural consequences". So to me, a natural consequence is that if she is wasting so much time arguing with me, she's not ready in time and she can't come with me on the errands. AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.









I agree with you 100% percent. Sometimes it seems to me on MDC that "child-respectful parenting" is more like "child rules the roost and can behave however they want" parenting. Kids need consequences and yes, it is a natural consequence for you not to go get her a treat when she is being snotty to you. If my husband told me he would pick me up a treat but then I started being horrible to him I can guarantee you that when he came back he would not have gotten me a treat! And why would he? I was being rude and mean and who cares if he offered the treat before if I was subsequently rude to him. Seems logical to me. One of the goals of parenting is preparing your child for the real world and in the real world how you treat people DOES affect what you receive back in return. I would lean towards you needing to be more firm and doling out more consequences to improve her behaviour.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
So at what age can your DD say NO and expect anyone to respect it? The natural consequence of not washing your hair is having dirty hair, not staying home. That's a punishment. Actually the idea that your DD "needs to have a consequence" is punitive. If your relationship with your DD is built on rewards and punishment you can expect drama because your DD is going to have hurt feelings, get angry, and learn to be manipulative. Using rewards and punishment is manipulative and controlling in nature. It's your choice, one of the alternatives is to base the relationship on respect and use guidance and modeling appropriate behaviors to help your DD make good choices herself. When the parent-child relationship is adversarial, strong willed or persistent children who resent the idea of being _made_ to do things are going to be upset, angry, or rude. If you want to continue having a punitive parenting style you need to become thick skinned, because if your 7 year old DD can hurt your feelings, just wait until she's 13 and hormonal.

Consequences are a part of life. Your child can be inside a bubble in your own little world but when they go out into the real world there will be consequences for their behaviour. I personally think anyone who leads their child to believe that they can have/do whatever they want is doing their child a huge disservice.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Consequences are a part of life. Your child can be inside a bubble in your own little world but when they go out into the real world there will be consequences for their behaviour. I personally think anyone who leads their child to believe that they can have/do whatever they want is doing their child a huge disservice.

Ah, thank you for that. I agree too (even though it may not be the popular opinion). I was thinking my child must be much more "spirited" because no way would that type of parenting work on her. And like I said, I think I'm pretty permissive (which _may_ be causing the issue in the first place). I offer her lots of choices...what does she want for breakfast? does she want to wear ___ or ____? Does she want to brush her hair, or shall I? Etc. But as for her being completely in charge of every choice/her body, etc....um no.

Maybe she's an immature 7. But she'd never (ever) brush her hair...it would turn into a matted clump. She'd never brush her teeth. Doubt she'd take a bath. Some people may say the natural consequence would be that she'd need to get her hair cut off and people would not want to be around her because she's dirty. Well, yes, there's that. But that's not fair to her! If I allow that to happen, I'm not doing a good job as her parent. She's only been on this earth for 7 years. I've been here a lot longer than that....my experience allows me to know that she would be very upset if nobody played with her and she needed to cut her hair off. Since I'm her guide in this life presently, I won't allow this to happen to her. And as well, my peers would be looking at me thinking I am a crappy mom for sending my little kid to school like that.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
So anyway, all this leads me to realize I have to try to be firmer (yet still loving and respectful). She has plenty of choice, but when I tell her something needs to be done a certain way, she must listen. It would be different if she were 11/12/13. But she's 7 (and a rather young 7). I'm still in control... Now....I just need to figure out how to put all this into practice. LOL

OP, I feel for you. And I'm going to point you toward the book that made a big difference for me. It's not as "woo" as some you'll see recommended here, but it's very, very good (and totally rejects any sort of physical or other harsh punishment, of course).

*The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolfe*.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Parenti.../dp/0374527083

Seriously, this is the book for you.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
Seriously, this is the book for you.

thanks!!!


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
OP, I feel for you. And I'm going to point you toward the book that made a big difference for me. It's not as "woo" as some you'll see recommended here, but it's very, very good (and totally rejects any sort of physical or other harsh punishment, of course).

*The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolfe*.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Parenti.../dp/0374527083

Seriously, this is the book for you.

OMG, I was just going to post this very suggestion! W00T! It is a great book. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I find it a great way to balance the whole family's needs, not just the child's.


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## lmk1 (Sep 21, 2007)

Lots of good opinions and points from both sides of the "parenting" camp on this thread. I won't add one more, as I'm not 100% sure ... all kids are different and all parents are different. I was one of those kids that HATED brushing their hair and to this day, I may say something mean to my mom if she asks me to brush my hair -- I'm 40, and I feel like it's none of her business!

Anyhow, what I wanted to say is if you feel she's being disrespectful to you, there are 3 possible sources she may be copying this type of behavior from: 1 - your relationship with dh 2 - TV 3 - her friends

If your relationship with dh is respectful even during disagreements, then I would suspect TV. The shows that are on today show that being flippant and disrespectful is "cool". Even shows like Lightning McQueen (which is for little kids) have characters calling each other "idiot". If she's seeing this type of behaviour, then it may seem to her that's how you're supposed to behave towards someone, and she obviously feels comfortable with you... Don't take it badly that she's not like that with her dad...it just indicates that she's very secure in your love, but also is "experimenting" with how express her displeasure. Everyone is allowed to feel displeasure (whether it's fair or not); what she needs to know is how to express it to not hurt your feelings. Perhaps if she's watching shows where kids mouth off, talk to her about it...ask her how she thinks it makes the other person feel, so she starts to think about the effect on the other person. She may not realize how badly it makes you feel OR she may realize it only after the fact, and at that point she's angry and may not know how to say "I'm sorry Mom, I know that was mean".


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lmk1* 
if you feel she's being disrespectful to you, there are 3 possible sources she may be copying this type of behavior from: 1 - your relationship with dh 2 - TV 3 - her friends\

Good point. Not dh & I. We don't fight or call each other names in front of her (or behind her, lol). We don't do t.v. at all, but we do let her watch some movies. I guess some of them do have a little name calling here and there, yes. Maybe friends. I do notice her attitude is MUCH worse when she's been @ school. She is in a mixed class (3 grades), so she's with older kids all day. During holidays (Christmas, March Break), she is much sweeter. I guess that must be it.


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

My kids have both behaved this way at times. Given the time of year, it could be that she's about to have a growth spurt (expending extra energy= tiredness = aches and pains, who wouldn't be grumpy?) She' could just be dealing with more right now than is readily apparent. It doesn't make her behaviour okay, but it isn't necessarily that you're doing something wrong or she's spoiled.

I flat-out ask "Do you think being rude to me is going to make me want to give you a treat/ take you to the park/ whatever?" As a serious question, not snippy. Sometimes they think about it. If it's "I hate you" or "You're mean" I sometimes just say "Well, you must not want to be around me then." Sometimes they go with it... my son (8) especially has learned that he'll feel better after a good mope in his room or a ride on his bike. One time I made him go take a shower and he yelled "FINE! But it's NOT going to make me feel better!" and he stormed off and slammed the door on his way in. Ten minutes later he was singing in the rain


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
I think that it is a natural consequence. "You have to take a bath before we go to the store (where the snack is)."

No it is artificial created to be a punishment. a natural consequence is your knee is hurt if you fall on it. taking away a treat is a punishment.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Consequences are a part of life. Your child can be inside a bubble in your own little world but when they go out into the real world there will be consequences for their behaviour. I personally think anyone who leads their child to believe that they can have/do whatever they want is doing their child a huge disservice.

That doesnt make sense at all. Every where you go there are different rules so why not at home? as long as a child realises that there are reasons for rules at different places you are not doing them any disservice. Like my kids can swim naked at home but the pool requires them to wear a swimsuit. they can climb on the table at home but not at their friends house. my house is as much the real world as any other place and just like any other place my requirements of my children are different than the next place.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
No it is artificial created to be a punishment. a natural consequence is your knee is hurt if you fall on it. taking away a treat is a punishment.

I just don't agree, ok? She didn't take the treat away. It was not ABLE to be purchased because they couldn't leave the house because the child was not going to get clean. Which was the stipulation for leaving the house.

I am thrilled that your parenting style works for you. I have a friend who parents similarly to you, and her child owns her. She does whatever that child wants-she drops everything to do what she wants. She is completely taken advantage of. That's my experience with a child led house.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

I didn't have any tone-sorry you took it one way over another. I just said I didn't agree with you.

I also never said I punish my daughters. Nor did I say you advocate taking advantage. I was stating simply that I'm glad it works for you-but it went horribly wrong for my friend and now her child has complete control over her.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
I didn't have any tone-sorry you took it one way over another. I just said I didn't agree with you.

I also never said I punish my daughters. Nor did I say you advocate taking advantage. I was stating simply that I'm glad it works for you-but it went horribly wrong for my friend and now her child has complete control over her.

Right so who should have control? why should one person ( and I don't care if its the adult or the child) have control over another? and why is this such an issue for so many parents who has control in a situation. I'm not talking about something like leaving a child to play on a busy road that woul be a stupid example (Thats the one most people will throw at me) If safety is involved I step in. but if it isn't a safety issue why should a parent be "allowed" to coerce/manipulate whatever you want to call it a child to do something.
And where do you draw the line? if a parent is allowed to do it are grandparents? what about a teacher? boss? where in society do we draw the line and start treating all individuals with respect? It is not child centered or child led or child whatever it is simply treating a person with respect.
I can't comment on you friend other than that she has a choice.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

Right. Everyone has a choice. And I would love to live in a world where I did not have to guide and direct my children and help them realize what good choices are.
At work, my boss DOES have authority over me. I can choose not to listen to his directives, but what happens? I lose my job. At school, my kids can choose not to listen to their teacher, but (again) what happens? And, I'm not saying blindly follow everything that is said. I wholeheartedly agree with questioning authority. If my child's teacher tells her that she can't go to the bathroom, I fully expect her to get up and walk out of class.
The line is different for everyone. I expect my children to respect the family. I'm not spending all day barking orders, but I do tell them to help with dishes, keep their rooms clean, wash themselves on a regular basis, etc. I don't think that's being disrespectful to them. It's teaching them. I do not coerce them. I'm straight forward. My kids don't fear me, or feel as if I'm controlling them. They know that they are a part of the family and act that way.


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## karika (Nov 4, 2005)

thank you for writing this. I tried to write a post like this last week and it came out all wrong. Your situation is like mine. I am going to read the responses now. One thing I want to mention is that I believe 90% of behavior is directly related to the foods we are ingesting. It is a chemical reaction in definition. We are GFCFSF now and I am still trying to work out all my dd1's food triggers. I do believe it can be done. She is almost 7, btw and sounds exactly like your daughter from this post.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I have a very spirited 8-year-old, and she has certainly been mouthy. I think the first and most important thing is to not get dragged into the emotions. If your dd gets mouthy, say in a pretty unemotional way that you won't respond to being talked to like that. Don't escalate things by getting more emotional and don't get dragged into it. With my spirited and very emotional dd, getting into the emotional thing with her makes her insecure. The insecurity leads to more emotional unbalance. I'm her rock, and when she's all emotional like that she needs me to be more even tempered. It isn't easy for me as I am not naturally even tempered, you know the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, but it really makes a huge difference in her behavior.

I personally would have still gotten the treat, but I don't think that's such a huge deal. I just don't think she's probably connecting those two things as much as you're hoping she is. And following through with the treat would have been a nice message that your love and affection are constant despite the big eruption, which might have made her more secure as well. As a highly emotional person, I know the insecurity involved in that temperament. But like I said, I don't think that's a big deal. The bigger deal is simply not getting dragged into the emotions.

I also would have let her take a bath at some other point, like maybe after you went out. Autonomy is a huge deal for an older child, and presenting it like, "You really need a bath. I'd like it if you took one before we went out, but it's OK if you would rather wait until after" might have given her that autonomy and still gotten her clean before school the next day.

Another thing is that it might help you to change your perspective on the rudeness from "she's being rude." to "she still needs to learn to be polite." It's basically the same thing, but I find I respond differently when I think about it that way. Instead of taking it personally, I go into more of a teaching mode. "I'm not sure if you're aware how that sounds to me." And then I explain what she said and how I respond. That has also made a big difference.

Finally, children are not always going to be happy. They will get angry, upset, and will have tantrums. People of all ages have tantrums, they just change in form as they get older, and it sounds like your dd had an older child tantrum. I would treat all tantrums of all children of all ages the same way I treat tantrums in toddlers. Empathize, don't get dragged into the emotions of it, and be there for her when she's over. Children are not always going to be happy, and that's OK.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

Mum21-each child is different and needs different direction. Each family dynamic is different.
I honestly am thrilled that you found a way that works well for your family.
My way works well for my family as well. FWIW, I don't do punitive consequences. No time outs, I don't take things away from my kids. I do have expectations. And there is nothing wrong with having expectations.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
I just don't get why the majority of parents gives their own children so little credit and assumes punishemnts (even in the form of items taken away time out or whatever) are neccesary to ensure the child behaves the correct way.

I suppose for me it is because if I gave her more credit and assumed she will behave a certain way, she just won't (sometimes). At times, that is ok. Other times it is NOT ok, and she just has.to.do.something.

I have to admit I'm curious about this concept however, mum21andtwins. I'm wondering how you would react in different scenarios. I find I can understand better when I hear about concrete examples.

Such as: the family is getting ready to go to an important event (whatever that may be...perhaps a grandparent's birthday dinner). The child decides they don't really feel like going. And asking them what would make them happy to go (ex: offering to bring along a game etc) isn't changing their mind. At all. They are just plain out saying no. There isn't anyone they can stay with (since the whole family is going), and it would be hurtful and rude for them to not attend (we aren't talking about a toddler here). Plus, everyone is busy trying to get ready and they are slowing people down and causing stress by refusing to get dressed or cooperate.

What would you do? What do you feel is respectful to the child?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
With my spirited and very emotional dd, getting into the emotional thing with her makes her insecure. The insecurity leads to more emotional unbalance. I'm her rock, and when she's all emotional like that she needs me to be more even tempered.

Hmmm, very interesting!!









Also, I have to remind everyone that I'm not being unreasonable....again, if she could have taken a bath at any other time it would have been fine (remember, I'm pretty laid back in general). The water was being turned off after dinner and she had to have her bath at that moment.


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## thehighernest (Aug 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
If my husband told me he would pick me up a treat but then I started being horrible to him I can guarantee you that when he came back he would not have gotten me a treat! And why would he? I was being rude and mean and who cares if he offered the treat before if I was subsequently rude to him. Seems logical to me.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I guess I just don't have a point of reference for this...I realize it's a hypothetical example, and I'm not sure that my husband and I are ever "horrible" to each other, but if I told my husband I was, say, stopping for ice cream on the way home, and then we were less than nice to each other for whatever reason, I would STILL stop to get ice cream. Not doing so seems...childish? Petty? Vindictive? I'm not sure...

Anyway OP, in terms of children: I only have a 14 month, so what I do really know about the work a relationship with a 7 year old takes? But to address your question as to what do in the scenario you last posted. I would think you'd have to consider the reasons why the child _didn't_ want to go to said grandmother's dinner. Is the dinner after a reasonable time when I can expect my child to be happy and cheerful? I know that with our baby, however important the event may be, if it takes place after his bedtime, we're not going unless we can get someone to watch him. If he's not feeling well, we're not going. If he's hungry, and we need to arrive late because he has to eat first, we'll be late. I would think this would still be the case with an older child, but again, I have no real experience with that yet. Maybe someone who does could comment on that.

Perhaps, would stopping for 10 or 20 minutes for playtime to get everyone on track before heading out help?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
No it is artificial created to be a punishment. a natural consequence is your knee is hurt if you fall on it. taking away a treat is a punishment.

She did not take away a treat. The treat was at the store, and this mother's rule was that she had to take a bath before she went to the store. The child refused to bath therefore the result was that they didn't go to the store, where the treat was. I have a feeling though that you believe even making a rule is "disrespectful" so just carry on.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
Right so who should have control? *why should one person ( and I don't care if its the adult or the child) have control over another?* and why is this such an issue for so many parents who has control in a situation. I'm not talking about something like leaving a child to play on a busy road that woul be a stupid example (Thats the one most people will throw at me) If safety is involved I step in. but if it isn't a safety issue *why should a parent be "allowed" to coerce/manipulate whatever you want to call it a child to do something*.
And where do you draw the line? *if a parent is allowed to do it are grandparents? what about a teacher? boss?* where in society do we draw the line and start treating all individuals with respect? It is not child centered or child led or child whatever it is simply treating a person with respect.
I can't comment on you friend other than that she has a choice.

The parent should have control because they are the parent. Because it is their to job to raise the child, not the other way around. Because they have been on this earth many more years than the child and they have life experience that the child does not yet understand. Because teaching the child that they don't have to answer to anybody is setting them up for major life problems. I am raising my children, they aren't raising me.

Answer to second bolded part - because I'm the parent. I'm the adult. I take my children's feelings into consideration but when it comes down to it I make the rules.

Answer to third bolded part - Nobody else has the same autority over my children because I am their parent. But yes, when they are in the care of their grandparents they are expected to follow the rules and respect their authority. The same goes with school. No, I do not just teach my children that they have to do whatever the teacher says but I do expect them to follow the rules of the classroom and to obey any reasonable request the teacher makes of them. And of course they are going to have to do what their boss tells them. If they don't they won't have a job for very long. And you are kind of proving my point. It sounds like you want your child to not have to answer to everybody but that is just not the way the world works. And they will recieve a rude awakening once they are out of your home.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
She did not take away a treat. The treat was at the store, and this mother's rule was that she had to take a bath before she went to the store. The child refused to bath therefore the result was that they didn't go to the store, where the treat was. I have a feeling though that you believe even making a rule is "disrespectful" so just carry on.

She did take away the treat, or the ability to get a treat anyway. And the girl did take a bath, but the mom forced it. And I think they did go to the store still? I think they went to the store but the child wasn't allowed to have a treat there, if I'm understanding the specifics right. Taking away the treat was a punishment, though it doesn't seem like an out of line punishment. I personally avoid punishments but I can see why she did that and I think it's as connected as any punishment.

Although, I think focusing on the treat is a bit beside the point as I think the problem here is the child's emotional unbalance affecting the mom's emotions, and then the mom's emotions exacerbating the child's emotional unbalance, not whether the child was punished or should have gotten the treat. I don't think not getting the treat caused any particular problem that hadn't already existed before that issue (emotional unbalance), and I don't think it would have caused a problem if she had gotten the treat, nor would it have solved the problem if she'd gotten the treat, nor did taking away the treat solve the problem. I think the treat is a minor detail. Which is one of the reasons I don't use punishments - they seem to take most of the attention away from the core problem and put it on a side issue.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I think there is a huge space between pretty much having no rules/expectations for children and being all about punitive consequences and authoritarian parenting. I have found that having basic rules and expectations for our DD (again, a few years younger than the OPs daughter, but she does display many of the same behaviors at times) have really helped us. She has the security of knowing expectations in the family for behavior- both hers and ours! and this allows her to NOT have to expend energy and anxiety on needing to create all of her own boundaries and rules. In addition, I think DH and I are way more able to use playful parenting, discussion, and creativity with her than we would be if everything felt like a free-for-all. The "rules" of respect that we have for her are also the ones we have for ourselves... not just how we treat her but how we treat eachother. I want DD to have had as much "say" in as many things in her life as possible to help her develop a sense of autonomy, independence, self-sufficiency, and self-efficacy. but that is NOT the same as having no idea of the importance of, when appropriate, conforming to societal/school expectations. In my mind, I am doing her a disservice if I don't give her the tools of self-control that she needs to succeed outside of our home.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

All this over not taking a bath? sheesh. I don't see what a treat has to do with being clean, and it wouldn't have killed anyone to go to the store dirty. Even if it meant she was itchy or got a rash or something. THAT would have been the natural consequence. And hey, I might not want to sit or stand real close to her, or hold her hand if she stunk.







no, but seriously, I have a 9 yo DD that for whatever reason fights me on the shower issue. I don't mean I fight her and physically make her bathe, or punish her if she doesn't want to get in the shower... but that she will often go days without gettin clean, and I remind her (okay, sometimes even bug her about it), and she always seems to have something more important to do at the time, and says she'll take a shower later. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she doesn't (ie goes to bed w/o ever taking one, for yet another day).

Here's the thing - it's not something I feel the need to control and manipulate her with. This too shall pass. I have a feeling, that by, say, middle school - if not sooner - she is going to WANT to be clean and smell lovely. She already cares about her looks, and will change her outfit several times a day, spend forever curling and styling her hair, will even put on purple eye shadow while at home. She just happens to not care about being the most hygenic person, at the time.







. You know, if she were to decide she smelled funky, or god-forbid some kid on the bus said something (really, she's not that gross, I'm just saying IF it came down to this), then that would he the natural consequence, and maybe then she would decide showering daily (or heck, even every other day would make me happy - but it's not about me!) is important to her. I guess I just can't see getting into a power struggle over another person (especially a child at that age where they are becoming so independant) over when they want to take a bath. I certainly wouldn't be holding something like a treat over their head.


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
Not at all and you are being waaay more calm about it with her than I would be-but I guess I'm just more disrespectful than most.


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## LittleBattleAxe (May 21, 2010)

Brokenheart, count me as another mama who thinks you're doing fine.
I have an 8 yr old dd and she can be so moody that I sometimes wonder how we are going to survive the teenage years. Eh.

So the way I read it all is that you told her some things would happen before going to the store, they didn't all happen in a timely manner, and therefore, she didn't get a special treat for the next day's lunch.

I do think it's natural consequence if you frame it right. If you want to focus on natural consequences, it could go like this: "After we get home, we have time for X and Y. Then I need for you to take a bath so that we can leave by Zing O'clock." DD says, "Can I get a gooey-oh for lunch tomorrow?" Here, I think it is perfectly reasonable to make the stipulation ... "IF you are ready to leave at Zing O'clock, we will have time to stop to get a gooey-oh. If you aren't ready to go on time, we probably won't have time to get it." So she decides not to wash her hair, thereby making you late in running errands. A natural consequence of being behind schedule is that there isn't time to do everything that was initially planned.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with your approach, and you've already said that you are working on not being passive-aggressive in the aftermath. Good deal! I would add that maybe, when she is in a good mood and things are cozy, you might want to bring up the incident; ask her why she was so resistant to getting clean, and ask her if she can think of a way that you could have helped her stay on schedule OTHER than what you did. I do that with my dc and sometimes I get blank stares and "I don't knows" but just as often I get some feedback; I'm perfectly willing to try things their way if they are willing to look at things afterward and discuss what actually works and doesn't. Sometimes they surprise me, sometimes I surprise them.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

You're doing fine. You handled it well. I think a lot of it is the age, they're going through hormonal fluctuations and such. So don't beat yourself up.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

subbing... can't press the sub button 'cause the ad is in the way









very interesting to hear several sides on this...

I only have a 15mo so I can't say what I would've done, probably just gone to the store dirty & did a super-quick sponge bath type thing when we got home.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I just read through this, and can't really comment on your parenting, in general.

But, you really need to find a way to cope with your feelings when your dd is rude or whatever. This stuff happens and going into hiding is going to feel like the silent treatment. IME, nobody responds well to that. If you really, really need to leave, I think it would be a good idea to say something like, "I'm really upset right now, and I need a little while to calm down", so she knows it's not about you trying to punish her by withholding attention or affection.

Also, I'd have given her the treat. Unless you said upfront "you can have such-and-such treat if everything else goes smoothly", then you basically promised her something, then reneged, without her knowing that was on the table. Maybe you shouldn't have made the promise in the first place, but you did, and then you broke it. (As for the person who mentioned the thing with their dh...you can bet that if dh told me he was doing something, then I got snotty and he didn't do it, all hell would break loose...same thing if the roles were reversed. If I say something is going to be done, I do it...and I'm not in the habit of saying, "I'll pick you up your favourite chocolate bar while I'm shopping this afternoon _if_ you behave according to my unspecified expectations in the meantime".)


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I haven't read the WHOLE thread but just throwing this out there-- I agree with Storm Bride about the withdrawing affection thing-- if you've read UP then you know it's a kind of punishment. I agree, tell her you need a time out to get calm, take that as a chance to express that you are an important person who deserves to be treated respectfully, let her see that her words hurt you. Taking a time out but not turning it into a punishment is something I've been working on myself, as my patience is very limited right now b/c of work and other stuff.

I also wanted to say-- maybe she'd respond to some of the ideas in Playful Parenting? He's got a lot in there about kids throwing out insults and him figuring out what they're really saying or how to turn it around. And games might help ease things when she's getting upset about not getting her way-- like pretend someone dumped [insert her least fav color or food etc here] all over her hair and you're going to save her by scrubbing it off as fast as you can! This kind of things works SOMEtimes and it helps me keep my energy/patience for when it doesn't.

I think you know your child best, and you are the only one who knows how challenging she may be right now. I have a fairly easy going 3yo so I'm just offering support. It sounds like you are doing a LOT really well. I hope you find some tools to help you ease things for you and DD a bit more, too. Good luck!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I found it was easy to get triggered by my son's (age 7) nuttiness sometimes, like his angry lashing out, so I developed a phrase that I turn to when my brain is starting to ignite with passionate feelings & anger & stuff....I say out loud right in front of him and I cling to it like a life preserver: I say "I am going to resolve this peacefully if it's the last thing I do." If I need to keep repeating it, I do. That phrase works for me because it states it out loud, for me as well as for him, that I have a peaceful resolution as my end goal. Having a goal keeps me on track. You may have a different phrase, like "I'm sorry you are upset, but I am choosing to feel calm." WHATEVER works for you. But if it is something you can remember in the heat of the moment, to keep getting swept away by her emotions, that can be helpful.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
I found it was easy to get triggered by my son's (age 7) nuttiness sometimes, like his angry lashing out, so I developed a phrase that I turn to when my brain is starting to ignite with passionate feelings & anger & stuff....I say out loud right in front of him and I cling to it like a life preserver: I say "I am going to resolve this peacefully if it's the last thing I do." If I need to keep repeating it, I do. That phrase works for me because it states it out loud, for me as well as for him, that I have a peaceful resolution as my end goal. Having a goal keeps me on track. You may have a different phrase, like "I'm sorry you are upset, but I am choosing to feel calm." WHATEVER works for you. But if it is something you can remember in the heat of the moment, to keep getting swept away by her emotions, that can be helpful. 

I'm going to try to come up with something like this. I'm having a lot of trouble staying calm with ds2 right now (esp. when he bites his baby sister). I need something to keep me from blowing my top.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I actually say "I'm feeling really angry and feel like screaming so loud all the windows break. I don't want to do that we'd both get more upset". Then we usually go do something else entirely. Yard-work, baking stuff and showers are really good tasks for defusing intense emotions. Just identifying the situation by saying "I'm angry" seems to help I or my DD react to our individual anger in a calmer manner. The silliness of the idea of breaking all the windows with my voice kind of makes my anger seem less serious, at least to me.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
I actually say "I'm feeling really angry and feel like screaming so loud all the windows break. I don't want to do that we'd both get more upset". Then we usually go do something else entirely. Yard-work, baking stuff and showers are really good tasks for defusing intense emotions. Just identifying the situation by saying "I'm angry" seems to help I or my DD react to our individual anger in a calmer manner. The silliness of the idea of breaking all the windows with my voice kind of makes my anger seem less serious, at least to me.

I think that's a good idea. Giving names and words to strong emotions makes them seem less foreboding and mysterious, and therefore less scary. And it gives her permission to also have strong emotions and an example of how to handle them.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
Okay thank you so much! I guess I really just need to work on my "passive aggressive" behavior. When she is really rude to me, I withdraw from her. I tell her to go watch a movie and I just kind of ignore her for the rest of the night. The reason is that I'm so hurt over how she acted and how mean she is at times. This isn't mature behavior (I know), so I need to work on getting a grip.







I should not be thrown in a tizzy by a 7 year old's words/actions.

And yes, I too get way too wrapped up in her emotions. I want her to be happy. I feel her emotions (which is horrible considering she isn't exactly emotionally stable most of the time).









I recently read "Hold On to Your Kids" - the last section of the book deals with discipline and connections/relationships. He says that withdrawing is _not_ the thing to do. I have been trying to really focus on connections with our (7yrs in 3 weeks) DD and it is really helping. (He calls it collecting our children and says to do this before asking them to do things or expecting cooperation.)

I am going to ask my DH to read that section of the book because I think it will help him. He is having some of the same issues with DD as you are having with your DD. He also tends to get ticked off about her behavior and then withdraws from her, which only escalates the problem. Then I end up having to go in and do damage control - this is usually at night around bedtime when we are all tired.

I didn't have time to read the whole thread. I hope this helps some and that things are going better now.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Consequences are a part of life. Your child can be inside a bubble in your own little world but when they go out into the real world there will be consequences for their behaviour. I personally think anyone who leads their child to believe that they can have/do whatever they want is doing their child a huge disservice.

I said that _using_ a natural consequence to make a point is usually punishment. Saying a child "needs" a consequence and then arbitrarily doing something they don't like is punishment. I don't try to protect my DD, 4.5 years old, from the consequences that occur in the world. I do talk about possible consequences of different choices and behaviors so she can make better choices. For example several months ago we were dealing with DD being loud indoors so I would say calmly "Shouting hurts my ears and can hurt peoples feelings. Please use a friendly voice." I didn't get angry, punish her or yell back, I just calmly reminded her _every single time_ that it wasn't a good idea. We even talked about how her friends may might have hurt feelings when she shouted and be afraid to play with her. Just because one isn't using punishment and rewards to manipulate their childs behavior doesn't mean they are leading their child to believe they can do anything they want. Calm verbal guidance, modeling appropriate behavior, role playing about situations that involve rudeness are all valid ways to help a child learn how to be socially successful. If some one is upset, like a tantruming child, they respond better to a calm response. I can demand respect and still be respectful and nonpunitive at the same time.

I also have a 24 year old DD too, and if I could go back and raise her all over again I would be calmer, not stress over little stuff, and be completely nonpunitive. You have a lot more drama when you use punishment or rewards and when you get caught up in their emotions of the moment instead of using calm guidance.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
And yes, I too get way too wrapped up in her emotions. I want her to be happy. I feel her emotions (which is horrible considering she isn't exactly emotionally stable most of the time).









You came here asking for advice. Giving your DD a strong emotional reaction is just going to cause more annoying behavior. Seeing you upset is probably scary and makes her feel she has too much 'power' over the situation all at the same time. Don't focus on wanting her to be happy all the time, focus on helping her learn how to make choices so she can make her self happy. She doesn't need you to feel her emotions she needs you to calmly guide her through them when they are too intense. Just always assume she loves you and don't take rude behavior personally because she's a child and she is still impulsive and reactive. You're letting her hurt your feelings like an adult friend or family member would. It hasn't been mentioned so have you heard of Kids Parents and Power Struggles, Winning For a Lifetime by Mary Kurcinka?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Hey OP!

I am in the same boat as you except my child is a boy and just turned 16. Girl! You need to nip it now! Trust me!

What a I found out through LOTS of trial and error - is that my son is very boundary oriented and controlling. He needs to control his environment and when he is unable to control his environment, he literally comes unglued. Granted - he has a lot more maturity now than he did when he was younger - but it does take hard core boundaries and expectations to make our relationship work sometimes. Sometimes!

I have to say though that he did not act out like your dd at 7..... At this age, he was more in trouble at school with his peers.

I also found out that I was enabling A LOT of his behavior by not setting clear expectations. Like you - I really wanted to be able to explain and talk to him. Fast forward many years and heartaches later - he really just needed boundaries. And walk away. Don't try to talk through it or wait her out - walk away and leave her alone. She's a smart kid - she hears you. She also hears your conflict and unwillingness to come down hard on her.

One thing that I did wrong was to ground or take things to quickly and then keep them too long. Also, my ds needed more space to figure things out on his own. I sort of smothered him.

Now, I give clear consequences AHEAD of time. I never snatch something away from without it being his decision to lose it. Does that make sense? So in the bath tub situation - I wouldn't take away the treat without clearly explaining that if the behavior continues - the treat will be removed. I know some folks (and I haven't read the other responses yet) don't like to punish or give consequences - but I tell my kids that I will not continue to do things for them without their cooperation. So you might ask that your dd cooperate with you so that you can get the bath completed and then move on to the treat. "DD, I need your cooperation, please wash your hair so that we can (Whatever insert here)." DD shouts that she doesn't want to wash her hair. You tell her that if she choses not to wash her hair, then she cannot do XYZ later. Quick question - is she washing her hair or are you? That might be aggravating her - she might want the autonomy to wash her own hair. Leave the room - ask her to complete the task and call you when she's done. Staying in the room and arguing with her gives her the idea that she can continue to try and make you see it her way. If you leave - you are giving her choices.

Your description of your afternoon with the snack prepared, the long discussion on the way home etc.... that just reminds me of my son. It was so important to you that she understand exactly what was going on. You were working so hard to avoid conflict. You were walking on egg shells to keep her calm. And that is great! I've been there. But I had the same situation years ago where I was literally afraid to set my son off. And it had to stop. I was afraid to give him chores on Saturday because I didn't want to hear his mouth. How crazy is that!!!

I'm rambling! I'm so sorry. Good luck to you!


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
This is a totally wild guess, but if any custody issue were ever to come up, it would "look good" for the OP if her child doesn't go out in public looking unkempt.

Not to mention that a seven year old is not old enough or mature enough to always know what is best for them. That is why they have parents.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I have to agree that I likely would have had a small snack waiting for the kiddo at p/u from school, then gone straight to run errands, then home for a bath. It just seems like a more logical progression to me. Be that as it may...

The tie-in of the treat to her behavior really could have been made more explicit, IMO. When she asks next time, a better response would be (IMO) "We have to do X and Y before we can go out for Z. If things run smoothly and we're ready quickly, then we can get Z. If not, it will have to be another time."

Also... did she KNOW that she had to have a bath then and there because the water was being shut off after dinner (not sure I understand this, but that's something else, I guess)?

As for the mouthiness? I told mine that I didn't understand people when they spoke to me badly. So if she wanted a reaction, she'd need to find a different way to tell me why she was angry. Also, there is nothing wrong with saying "I'm sorry. But your words are making me so angry, I need to take a few minutes to cool off." and then walking away. But locking yourself in the bathroom and crying? You may as well just hand the keys to the kingdom over to her now.


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## bnhmama (Nov 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
Ah, thank you for that. I agree too (even though it may not be the popular opinion). I was thinking my child must be much more "spirited" because no way would that type of parenting work on her. And like I said, I think I'm pretty permissive (which _may_ be causing the issue in the first place). I offer her lots of choices...what does she want for breakfast? does she want to wear ___ or ____? Does she want to brush her hair, or shall I? Etc. But as for her being completely in charge of every choice/her body, etc....um no.

Maybe she's an immature 7. But she'd never (ever) brush her hair...it would turn into a matted clump. She'd never brush her teeth. Doubt she'd take a bath. Some people may say the natural consequence would be that she'd need to get her hair cut off and people would not want to be around her because she's dirty. Well, yes, there's that. But that's not fair to her! If I allow that to happen, I'm not doing a good job as her parent. She's only been on this earth for 7 years. I've been here a lot longer than that....my experience allows me to know that she would be very upset if nobody played with her and she needed to cut her hair off. Since I'm her guide in this life presently, I won't allow this to happen to her. And as well, my peers would be looking at me thinking I am a crappy mom for sending my little kid to school like that.

I just wanted to chime in and say, it's not just your 7 year old who is like this. My own 7 year old is and always has been very, very intense.

I know the lack of consequences/etc works fabulously for certain families but this is another place where we all need to remember one thing won't work for EVERY child.

My 7 year old gets exponentially worse the less limits/consequences/structure we enforce. When he begins to spiral out of control with his behavior I've learned to look closely at how loosy goosy I've gotten with limits. He complains (loudly and obnoxiously) for a day or so when I begin to tighten back up but then it's like this almost euphoric sense of relief washes over him. He'll even say things to me like "I do want to do xyz but I know it's not a good idea because when I was doing xyz before it made me stressed out." Those types of statements just FLOOR me when he says them.

For him limits=SECURITY. He needs the security of knowing that DH and I are in control and that weight is NOT on his shoulders. I'm not saying he never complains and that he never has choices. Not at all. BUT I have learned as a parent that even though it's not the most MDC friendly, I MUST listen to my child and try to do what he needs. It's actually fairly gentle, too. We don't hit, I *try* not to raise my voice too much and I use a lot of positive reinforcement.

I just wanted you to know you are not the only one with a very spirited 7 year old who pushes back from time to time. I think you handled it well, Mama.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Hi, I'm the OP.

I just have a moment for a quick reply right now, but I wanted to let you know I've read everyone's comments/ideas/suggestions. THANK YOU. Wow, I didn't expect so much brainstorming on this! I honestly feel much more confident overall and I realize that (a) this is something I can work on (from a variety of angles), and (b) I need to get a grip and not take things so personally when it is coming from a young kid.


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## bnhmama (Nov 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
Right so who should have control? why should one person ( and I don't care if its the adult or the child) have control over another? and why is this such an issue for so many parents who has control in a situation. I'm not talking about something like leaving a child to play on a busy road that woul be a stupid example (Thats the one most people will throw at me) If safety is involved I step in. but if it isn't a safety issue why should a parent be "allowed" to coerce/manipulate whatever you want to call it a child to do something.

For me, personally, I believe that children do not have the knowledge, acquired life skills or emotional ability to be that much in control. Yes, they should have choices and, over the years, gain more and more bits of control. Of their body, of choices, of activities, etc. There is a reason they need parents. For my son, when he gets too much control over day to day stuff he gets incredibly stressed and just falls apart. His behavior gets out of this world bad. But if I step in and tighten up my boundaries that I've let slide, he turns into the happiest, most relaxed, playful, well behaved child you've ever met. Now that he's old enough to understand bits of why this happens, he literally thanks me occasionally for enforcing whatever limit. I believe this is also why he does so well in school. The routines, structure and clearly stated and enforced limits work SO well for him. There aren't many surprises and he feels secure in knowing that he doesn't have to be in control.

Emotionally, they simply are not ready to have that much control over so much of their lives. It's very, very stressful. I believe it's my job as a parent to bare the brunt of that stress and gradually give more control as he learns how to handle situations over time.


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## bnhmama (Nov 28, 2006)

And I do just want to add that I try very, VERY hard not to let his negative emotions pull me into the vortex. As someone previous posted, when he's moody/emo he needs ME to be his rock because obviously, in this moment, he doesn't know how to handle his emotions and bring them under control.

We all know how BIG feelings like frustration and anger can feel. To a little child I believe it's ten times worse. It's just too difficult for them to reign in sometimes and they need us to teach them how.

I wouldn't with hold affection later. I would, however, talk to the child and tell her how you felt (disrespected, frustrated, angry, whatever.) At the very next interaction after an incident, I try to force myself to act as though things MUST be back to normal because SURELY he wouldn't STILL be acting funky. (He could and is many times







) I feel that this shows him I KNOW he is capable of behaving in a civilized manner and that his crummy behavior during whatever incident does not make me love him or believe in him any less.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
Right so who should have control? why should one person ( and I don't care if its the adult or the child) have control over another? and why is this such an issue for so many parents who has control in a situation. I'm not talking about something like leaving a child to play on a busy road that woul be a stupid example (Thats the one most people will throw at me) If safety is involved I step in. but if it isn't a safety issue why should a parent be "allowed" to coerce/manipulate whatever you want to call it a child to do something.
And where do you draw the line? if a parent is allowed to do it are grandparents? what about a teacher? boss? where in society do we draw the line and start treating all individuals with respect? It is not child centered or child led or child whatever it is simply treating a person with respect.
I can't comment on you friend other than that she has a choice.

I haven't read through the whole thread but I really, really agree with you. I do use coercion with my kids (as much as I try not to) but I try really hard to give them control over their own bodies. My dd6 sometimes went days without brushing her super-long hair but she always eventually wanted to (natural consequence was tangles and now she has a short super-cute bob that she asked for). I think it is disrespectful towards a 7 yr old to insist they bathe. Instead of making it a power-struggle I probably would have let her know that her hair hygiene was my issue and the why behind it but come up with a solution that both could be happy with (maybe a ball cap and pony?).


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Earthy Mama* 
I just don't agree, ok? She didn't take the treat away. It was not ABLE to be purchased because they couldn't leave the house because the child was not going to get clean. Which was the stipulation for leaving the house.

I am thrilled that your parenting style works for you. I have a friend who parents similarly to you, and her child owns her. She does whatever that child wants-she drops everything to do what she wants. She is completely taken advantage of. That's my experience with a child led house.

Wow. I haven't heard anyone on this thread advocate for a "child-led household" only a mutually respectful household. It is such a common misconception that respecting a child will lead to a child-led household, as the respect goes both ways.

There was a lot of room for the OP to negotiate an acceptable compromise for the dirty hair if she could have first respected her child's desire not to have a bathe. The outcome could have been acceptable to both of them.


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
Wow. I haven't heard anyone on this thread advocate for a "child-led household" only a mutually respectful household. It is such a common misconception that respecting a child will lead to a child-led household, as the respect goes both ways.

There was a lot of room for the OP to negotiate an acceptable compromise for the dirty hair if she could have first respected her child's desire not to have a bathe. The outcome could have been acceptable to both of them.

ok.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
There was a lot of room for the OP to negotiate an acceptable compromise for the dirty hair if she could have first respected her child's desire not to have a bathe.


No there wasn't. Sorry, but no way is my 7 year old choosing not to bathe. Ain't happening on my watch. I don't insist on a bath every single day, but there are times when a bath is just plain necessary. When do you begin respecting a child's decision not to bathe? What about a smelly, sticky 2 year old who isn't in the mood to have a bath? Would you sit down and brainstorm a respectful alternative? I'd love to hear how that goes.







What about a 5 year old who decides not to take medicine for pneumonia? It IS their body, after all. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I find it a bit hard to believe people who talk this way are 100% serious. I can't imagine what you would do in various scenarios.

Her entire body (including hair) was dirty (as in, actual dirt on it from playing in the woods). That isn't acceptable. If she wants to live like that when she grows up (and it out of the house), fine. Not now. If you allow your child not to bathe, that is your choice. I find it...."interesting"....but it doesn't affect me (unless I have to stand next to him/her).


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I completely agree with the OP's last post. There is a nice middle ground IMO where our 4.75 y.o. DD gets as much say as possible and practical... but where our knowledge and the fact that we are RESPONSIBLE for this child also count. Within reason, we can decide together when she bathes (and we tell her that, if she picks a certain time, it will mean giving up something else- like a TV show she planned to watch- or that we'll have to rush more). but needing to bathe at a decent interval, taking needed medicine (her antibiotic is NOT a choice- though how she takes it and mixed with what is... tylenol for an injury is a choice, usually).


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
What about a smelly, sticky 2 year old who isn't in the mood to have a bath? Would you sit down and brainstorm a respectful alternative? I'd love to hear how that goes.









actually it goes really easy, he doesnt want a bath ok how about spalshing puddles I'd ask and they love that so I switch the shower on put the plug in and we splash each other snuggle and what not in the bath and without realising it he's clean he's happy and it wasn;t a struggle. many times I have put buckets in the kitchen with towels over the floor and joined them and they got clean without the stress of a bath.

and the pneumonia thing is different as I have sad in a pp there is a difference between a lifethreatening situation and a bath.
The respectful way works it takes patience but it works just fine if you want it to work.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
actually it goes really easy, he doesnt want a bath ok how about spalshing puddles I'd ask and they love that so I switch the shower on put the plug in and we splash each other snuggle and what not in the bath and without realising it he's clean he's happy and it wasn;t a struggle. many times I have put buckets in the kitchen with towels over the floor and joined them and they got clean without the stress of a bath.

and the pneumonia thing is different as I have sad in a pp there is a difference between a lifethreatening situation and a bath.
The respectful way works it takes patience but it works just fine if you want it to work.

How about when your hormonal teenager doesn't want to bathe? Keep in mind - you have set up a scenario where you don't encourage hygiene and your 15 year old is greasy, with lots of pimples because you allowed at 5 for the kid to make bathing choices?

Now you might be saying that splashing in the kitchen is encouraging hygiene - but I'm thinking that kid's butt isn't getting clean splashing in the kitchen......

I have three teenagers now and I have never had to demand they bathe. Know why? Because I encouraged them to bathe at 2, 3 and 4 when it wasn't a power struggle. Now, when my (now 16 and 14 year olds) kids were 12 and 13 and started needing a bath - I reminded them and they did. No biggie......


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I do enforce bathing for my 3-year-old, but doesn't peer pressure do a lot of the enforcing at 15? I know I showered a lot more at 15 than my parents required me to, because of peer pressure.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I do enforce bathing for my 3-year-old, but doesn't peer pressure do a lot of the enforcing at 15? I know I showered a lot more at 15 than my parents required me to, because of peer pressure.

yeah - at 15 they probably do want to impress the opposite sex so they would bathe more. But the peer pressure to bathe isn't really a big deal now. The scruffy dirty look isn't too bad. But at 12 and 13, kids are starting to have the problems hygiene wise that a 15 year old would have without the maturity to clue in. And they are lazy at 12 and 13 too. At 12 and 13 they need to be reminded to bathe sometimes.

My 16 year old NEVER needs to be told to bathe. But he's a boy and does spend a lot of time in the shower


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

I haven't read all the responses, but I do have some advice for the situation with the bathtub. OP, you said you calmly explained why you needed DD to wash her hair, and after she refused you said no special snack. In that particular situation instead of giving all the reasons to wash her hair (she probably KNOWS why she needs her hair washed and just doesn't want to) I would have said, "your hair will be washed today, and if it takes a long time because you are fussing we probably won't have time to get your special snack. I know you don't want to wash your hair, but it must be done so let's hurry so we can still get the snack!"

With me, I feel out of control when I have asked my kids (11 and 7) do something a million times and then I just think of a punishment on the fly because I'm so mad they haven't done it. I think my 7 year old especially doesn't "get" it when the punishment comes out of the blue like that. It amazes me how joyfully he'll do something he was just complaining about when he knows it's connected to something he likes to do or wants.


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
How about when your hormonal teenager doesn't want to bathe? Keep in mind - you have set up a scenario where you don't encourage hygiene and your 15 year old is greasy, with lots of pimples because you allowed at 5 for the kid to make bathing choices?

Now you might be saying that splashing in the kitchen is encouraging hygiene - but I'm thinking that kid's butt isn't getting clean splashing in the kitchen......

I have three teenagers now and I have never had to demand they bathe. Know why? Because I encouraged them to bathe at 2, 3 and 4 when it wasn't a power struggle. Now, when my (now 16 and 14 year olds) kids were 12 and 13 and started needing a bath - I reminded them and they did. No biggie......

Did you read my pp? because I never said I don't encourage or talk about hygiene or guide and direct.
People are throwing hypothetical scenarios at me where a child needs to be clean but for whatever reason doesn't want to I am coming up with hypothetical answers and things I have used to get my kids to get clean. and yes splashing in the kitchen does get two cranky tired two year old who have been in the mud all day clean because I am there splashing with them. I also have a nearly 6 year old who showers pretty much evey day because he enjoys it. I don't need to remind him to brush his teeth either.

This all started because a kid didnt want to bathe once so I gave suggestions for overcoming those situations we all encounter from time to time where for whatever reason a child chooses to say no, be it tired ness crankyness whatever. force manipulation coercion and punisment are not the only ways. I have plenty experience with teens I raised my now 23y/o brother and my 19 y/o sister troughout the teens and guess what they bathe and brush their teeth and spend way too much time in the bathroom doing their makeup and what not I didn't force them...

I will repeat this again as I have said it in several pp. I do not suggest you don't guide and direct. I suggest you stop forcing coercing and manipulating children.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I am going to close this pending moderator review. Thanks for your patience!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Okie dokie. I am going to move this to the Gentle Discipline forum. Please mamas, let's focus on having a conversation without resorting to snarking on one another.


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## Forthwith (Aug 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum21andtwins* 
I will repeat this again as I have said it in several pp. I do not suggest you don't guide and direct. I suggest you stop forcing coercing and manipulating children.

I actually think that telling a child they won't get a treat unless they bathe is _less_ manipulative then tricking them into washing themselves by splashing in buckets.

My mother is very interested in non-violent communication and such, and honestly, it has always seemed very, very manipulative to me. If someone wants something from me, I want them to say it outright, and if they don't accept my 'no' I want them to say that outright too, not try to trick me into doing what they wanted me to do.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab* 
How about when your hormonal teenager doesn't want to bathe? Keep in mind - you have set up a scenario where you don't encourage hygiene and your 15 year old is greasy, with lots of pimples because you allowed at 5 for the kid to make bathing choices?

Now you might be saying that splashing in the kitchen is encouraging hygiene - but I'm thinking that kid's butt isn't getting clean splashing in the kitchen......

I have three teenagers now and I have never had to demand they bathe. Know why? Because I encouraged them to bathe at 2, 3 and 4 when it wasn't a power struggle. Now, when my (now 16 and 14 year olds) kids were 12 and 13 and started needing a bath - I reminded them and they did. No biggie......

I don't think that is the reason, it could be but you may find that a family who doesn't force bathing and makes things respectful and fun also has the same experience. I didn't care to bathe when for a few years (about 7-10) and my mom didn't push it. When I became a teenager though I started caring about my experience and bathing two or three times a day, though I eventually moved down to just once a day like the rest of my family. Even if bathing is very important there is no reason why you can't miss a day here and there and still live. Though it disgusts me I let my dd miss a day once in a while because there are some battles that aren't worth it unless the kid is really filthy.

PMS throws totally different things into the mix though. I am never at my best during that week because I am in pain and there is almost no patience in me even with all the self-talk I do. I think you shouldn't beat yourself up, but do remember for next time that there are other ways to address things like this even when you are not feeling your best (maybe even especially then).


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## midnightwriter (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 

_She later was all nice to me (manipulative!), but once she asked me sweetly if she could please have the lunch treat and I said no, she went crazy. Crying, yelling, being very rude. She was ranting on and on._

I read only about 3 pages of this thread, so maybe this has been already addressed.

There's another way of looking at this situation. Maybe what you perceive as manipulation was something else entirely.

Imagine this: after the power struggle is over, your DD decides to do a "do over." She might not verbally apologize, but she is trying to make amends by behaving better. In my experience, strong willed individuals are better at apologizing via actions, and are not as good with vebal apologies. So she is making an effort, behaving better after what she probably perceived as injustice and coercion, and she is hoping for a reconciliation. She asks whether she will get the treat...When the answer is "no" her resolve is gone, and all the emotional effort she was putting into "behaving" is gone too. In her mind, her "apology" didn't work. Her efforts were futile. So what's the point?

There's an article some place, I can't find it now, about a "do over." When you mess up with your kid, you can start over. and when your kid is offering a do over, you should pick up the threads and play along. Things are easier this way. This is how bonding works too.

Imagine what would have happened if after she asked about the treat, you exhaled, hugged her, and said, "I was hurt by your behaviour, but I see you're making an effort to mend things. The treat was not contingent on your behaviour, of course it is still on. Let's get ready."


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelmendi* 
I actually think that telling a child they won't get a treat unless they bathe is _less_ manipulative then tricking them into washing themselves by splashing in buckets.

My mother is very interested in non-violent communication and such, and honestly, it has always seemed very, very manipulative to me. If someone wants something from me, I want them to say it outright, and if they don't accept my 'no' I want them to say that outright too, not try to trick me into doing what they wanted me to do.


Thank you! This is where I am coming from!

And I wasn't suggesting to you mum21andtwins that you don't talk about hygiene. I was giving my take on parenting. As someone who had three kids in three years - things could be hectic and scary at times. And it has worked VERY successfully for me. And it sounds like yours is working great for you too. That's all that matters.


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
I really appreciate everyone's suggestions/comments. I honestly feel a lot better now. I was PMSy when this happened, and I've also realized I'm probaby a bit of a "push over" when it comes to DD. Only because I just love her and want her to be happy. But honestly, after 7 years of parenting her I guess I can say that an overly gentle, permissive style doesn't work well on her. She's "bold" (for lack of a better word). I certainly don't want to squash her spirit (that boldness may serve her well as an adult), but I want to maintain some sense of order in my home, and I don't want her viewing me as a marshmallow. I am the adult, and I have her very best interests at heart...I cannot allow her to lead the way.

So anyway, all this leads me to realize I have to try to be firmer (yet still loving and respectful). She has plenty of choice, but when I tell her something needs to be done a certain way, she must listen. It would be different if she were 11/12/13. But she's 7 (and a rather young 7). I'm still in control.

I know she's still love me, and perhaps even respect me more. Her dad is much firmer than I am (he does not put up with any nonsense). He also isn't always concerned about her emotions (ex: if we have to go somewhere and she's not happy about it, it doesn't bother him...he allows her to feel annoyed as long as she isn't being rude or disruptive). This is all opposite of how I behave. And the bottom line? She ADORES her dad (and I know she adores me too). She isn't the least bit resentful of his parenting style. And when he's looking after her, there is never EVER any drama. Because she respects him and listens to him.

Now....I just need to figure out how to put all this into practice. LOL

After reading this thread and another of yours, I wonder if we're the same person!









I haven't read through all the replies, but have you used her outbursts as opportunities to tell her how it makes YOU feel? After she goes off on a tirade do you tell her that she hurt your feelings?

My ds1 is almost 5, but he is getting into that mouthy, grouchy stage and I am really trying to nip it in the bud now. In my adult life I am not good at telling people how I feel. I tend to let people do what they will and not say boo about it and sometimes that makes me feel like a pushover. But with my kids, I'm really trying to teach them to be different, and it's helping me to grow. I try to apologize right when I hurt them and that teaches them to do the same. I am trying to tell them when they've hurt ME, to teach them that their actions not only affects them (by consequences), but they can affect others. I think it's helping. My ds1 is starting to apologize to me spontaneously after he throws a fit or says hurtful words....not every time, but sometimes! We are all a work in progress!


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

OK, after reading this thread I see that my advice above has been discarded earlier as manipulative! lol

I've seen the results of the "mutual respect" households. I feel like it sounds good in theory, but in all honesty I know by being a parent that it's much easier to add more and more freedom than it is to take freedom away. My 2 year old should not be able to decide whether or not they bathe, brush their teeth, take medicine, pick out their own clothes, or go outside and play. A 2 year old has no concept of time, consequences, or other people's feelings. As they grow and have a better understanding of the world around them then they have more choices.

My 4 or 5 year old could pick out his own clothes or go outside in the backyard without asking because by that time I know he has learned what's appropriate to wear (no underoo's in public), and that he can safely play in the background without leaving it.

I think the whole term mutual respect household is a misnomer anyway. I can acknowledge and respect my child's feelings and still do what I think is best for them. The argument about the bath is more about what certain people are comfortable with. I don't like to be out in public with dirty people, period. A natural consequence of being dirty would be you don't get to go out in public with me. Some people think a dirty kid is no big deal. It embarrasses me, and I don't like it. How is the kid not bathing and then wanting to go with me respecting MY feelings? How is that mutually respectful?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
I think the whole term mutual respect household is a misnomer anyway. I can acknowledge and respect my child's feelings and still do what I think is best for them. The argument about the bath is more about what certain people are comfortable with. I don't like to be out in public with dirty people, period. A natural consequence of being dirty would be you don't get to go out in public with me. Some people think a dirty kid is no big deal. It embarrasses me, and I don't like it. How is the kid not bathing and then wanting to go with me respecting MY feelings? How is that mutually respectful?

I think the issue about respect is about respecting people's bodily autonomy. And I personally do think that one person's bodily autonomy, even that of a child, is more important than another's feelings of embarrassment. What happens when your child is older and starts making hair or clothing choices that you find embarrassing and you don't want to be seen with them? And I think telling a child you don't want to be seen in public with them for any reason would be very hurtful when coming from a parent.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
And I personally do think that one person's bodily autonomy, even that of a child, is more important than another's feelings of embarrassment. What happens when your child is older and starts making hair or clothing choices that you find embarrassing and you don't want to be seen with them?

I do agree with you to a point. You should see how my DD often chooses to go out.







And I don't say ANYTHING negative...she can wear pretty much whatever she wants. Anything she feels pretty or happy in is fine with me. I don't care if it doesn't match. I never bat an eye when she wants to wear a tiara when we go grocery shopping, or if she wants to wear a pink boa with her winter jacket. I respect the fact that her body runs hotter than the average person and I actually hemmed the sleeves on all her long-sleeved tops so they are now short-sleeved so she'll feel more comfortable. I routinely will let her choose a ponytail over a good hair brushing.

As a teen, if she wants to dye her hair black or purple or pierce her eyebrow, etc, she certainly won't get an argument from me. I'm very laid back.

BUT. Can you imagine this....when she is grown up and looknig back at childhood photos, she will stumble upon a picture of a very special day at school. She'll see a little 7 year old with messy, tangled, dirty hair, all dressed up in a pretty dress. I can imagine her turning to me and asking: HOW could you allow your little child to go to a ceremony like that?! What on earth would I tell her? "Oh, sorry DD, you in your 7 year old wisdom decided not to wash your hair, and because I respect you I didn't insist."










Anyway, yes in this particular case she needed a bath. And she didn't want a shower.







It wasn't like this was a one-time weird blow-up. The real issue is that she often thinks that she can be really rude to me and doesn't have to listen to me. I disagree. I'll put some of these ideas into place.


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## bonamarq (Oct 18, 2006)

What an interesting thread! I have read most of it and love to see the continuum of styles represented within GD!

OP - I totally get what you are going through - my dd (6.5) is SO MUCH like this and VINDICTIVE is the adj that comes to mind when things are not going her way - she can manage to say the MOST HURTFUL thing she can think of, especially with dh (who is far more authoritarian then I would like, but he's a work in progress too







)

For my dd, and to my own line of thinking, this pp put it very well:

Quote:

Emotionally, they simply are not ready to have that much control over so much of their lives. It's very, very stressful. I believe it's my job as a parent to bare the brunt of that stress and gradually give more control as he learns how to handle situations over time.
This is not to criticize others who take a different approach but b/w my dh style, my own needs, and the reduced anxiety that results when dd has those predictable boundaries this is what works for us.

One thing that REALLY helps her is, as others have said, is laying out the expectation and the consequence. In your bath scenario I would have given her so many minutes (we have a visual timer that works really well for this)
and let her know she needs to be done when that goes off or we will not have time for xy or z... we use this alot to help her in the mornings and evenings getting ready for school/bed - the key is I leave her to finish the bath alone - she's perfectly capable and just removing my presence removes the attention or power she's usually seeking at that moment (not in a withdrawal of love kind of way - I just go read in the evenings or get myself ready in the am)

another thing w/my dd is she really hates to be 'wrong' or caught making a mistake of anykind - walking away in the above scenario gives her chance to 're-set' herself - and shows her I have the confidence in her to do what needs to be done. And as another pp mentioned? when things are spiraling downward I find it enormously helpful to start over- hasn't happened in a while but there were times where I would take her to our open living room and spin her around and around (I had a silly name for it - the vortex? to go back in time and start over) She would literally become a different kid instantly and our day would move forward more positively....

It's like once they start down that road they have a hard time stepping back even if they want to???

good luck and HTH


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
The real issue is that she often thinks that she can be really rude to me and doesn't have to listen to me. I disagree

The thing is your DD _can_ be rude to you and not listen to you. She did both according to your account. You should admit to yourself and her that she can do exactly what she wants, but so can everyone else. She's in control of her actions and you're in control of your actions and reactions. Then you can guide her to choose actions that will make her life more pleasant instead of less pleasant. If you admit to yourself that you can't control your DD or anyone else but yourself, your life will be easier.

The problem with forcibly washing someones hair against their will, is that you are telling them, with your actions, that it is ok for some one to physically do things to their body against their will. That is not a message I can in good conscious give my DD. Now if a person is injured or is very ill that's different, even with adults. But it's the only exception for us as a family. I want my DD to expect people to respect her right to say 'No!' or 'Stop!'. I think respecting a child personal autonomy helps protect them from future abuse and abusive relationships. When your relationship with your DC is not coercive and not controlling there's less conflicts, so less anger. People are more cooperative when they aren't in conflict, upset or angry.

So even though I wouldn't make my 4.5 year old DD bathe, every time I tell her that I think she's too dirty or sandy to be in the house she does clean up or bathe. If I tell her that I think she needs to change or clean up before we go somewhere she does. Now she sometimes doesn't want her hair brushed, but not violating her personal autonomy is more important than occasional messy hair. I don't think my DD is abnormally compliant. On the contrary she has very intense, high energy temperament. I think our relationship fosters co-operation.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Also, I'd have given her the treat. Unless you said upfront "you can have such-and-such treat if everything else goes smoothly", then you basically promised her something, then reneged, without her knowing that was on the table. Maybe you shouldn't have made the promise in the first place, but you did, and then you broke it. *(As for the person who mentioned the thing with their dh...you can bet that if dh told me he was doing something, then I got snotty and he didn't do it, all hell would break loose...same thing if the roles were reversed. If I say something is going to be done, I do it...and I'm not in the habit of saying, "I'll pick you up your favourite chocolate bar while I'm shopping this afternoon if you behave according to my unspecified expectations in the meantime".)*

Thank you for saying this. I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midnightwriter* 
There's another way of looking at this situation. Maybe what you perceive as manipulation was something else entirely.

*Imagine this: after the power struggle is over, your DD decides to do a "do over." She might not verbally apologize, but she is trying to make amends by behaving better. In my experience, strong willed individuals are better at apologizing via actions, and are not as good with vebal apologies. So she is making an effort, behaving better after what she probably perceived as injustice and coercion, and she is hoping for a reconciliation. She asks whether she will get the treat...When the answer is "no" her resolve is gone, and all the emotional effort she was putting into "behaving" is gone too. In her mind, her "apology" didn't work. Her efforts were futile. So what's the point?
*
There's an article some place, I can't find it now, about a "do over." When you mess up with your kid, you can start over. and when your kid is offering a do over, you should pick up the threads and play along. Things are easier this way. This is how bonding works too.

Imagine what would have happened if after she asked about the treat, you exhaled, hugged her, and said, "I was hurt by your behaviour, but I see you're making an effort to mend things. The treat was not contingent on your behaviour, of course it is still on. Let's get ready."

I also agree with this. I think calling a seven year old manipulative when she could've been trying to apologize is way over the top especially considering the whole giving and then taking away of the treat seemed very manipulative in the first place.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
No there wasn't. Sorry, but no way is my 7 year old choosing not to bathe. Ain't happening on my watch. I don't insist on a bath every single day, but there are times when a bath is just plain necessary. *When do you begin respecting a child's decision not to bathe? What about a smelly, sticky 2 year old who isn't in the mood to have a bath?* Would you sit down and brainstorm a respectful alternative? I'd love to hear how that goes.







What about a 5 year old who decides not to take medicine for pneumonia? It IS their body, after all. Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I find it a bit hard to believe people who talk this way are 100% serious. I can't imagine what you would do in various scenarios.

Her entire body (including hair) was dirty (as in, actual dirt on it from playing in the woods). That isn't acceptable. If she wants to live like that when she grows up (and it out of the house), fine. Not now. If you allow your child not to bathe, that is your choice. I find it...."interesting"....but it doesn't affect me (unless I have to stand next to him/her).

Of course I wouldn't put a decision to bathe into the hands of a 2 yr old but you have a 7 yr old right?There are many, many ways of gaining the cooperation of a 7 yr old so that both of you feel somewhat ok with the decision- it teaches compromise. I'm not saying she didn't "have" to have a bath. I'm just saying that your post has a huge sense of power struggle, she was being "difficult" and "manipulative", you felt you couldn't let her get away with how she was acting. When it gets to that point with me and my kids, I need to take a breather and figure out a different approach to what is going on. I don't think anyone really won in your scenario. Your dd was angry and upset at being forced to do something with her body, you were hurt and upset about her reaction- the only thing accomplished was a bath. It is easy to get kids to do things to a certain age through force or coercion but what happens when they get old enough to push back harder? My goal, not always accomplished, is to build negotiation and compromising skills now and to give the kids as much control over their own bodies as is warranted for their age so that we keep our relationship connected and close and, from that closeness, I can effectively guide and discipline them.

"Hold on to you kids" is a great resource as it advocates against coercion and punishment.

In the case of the pneumonia- I have "red-light" rules that my kids know we don't negotiate on. They are few and far between but they usually respect these rules as they don't encounter "red-light" stuff very often.


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## brokenheart (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
I think calling a seven year old manipulative when she could've been trying to apologize is way over the top especially considering the whole giving and then taking away of the treat seemed very manipulative in the first place.

Holy cow, do you think I don't know my own child? Trust me on this...I've lived with her for 7 years. She wasn't sincerely trying to apologize. I've even had teachers mention that she can be a bit "sneaky" at times and I knew exactly what they meant. I love her to death, but people have different personalities, you know?

I think in all honesty that my personality just clashes with DD's personality. It always has been this way. It makes me really sad and I'm sure a lot of times I really suck as a parent. I'm trying to work on it. I don't think I'm manipulative in these situations as much as I'm at the END OF MY ROPE when it comes to patience with her at times. That's all. Thanks.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
I think in all honesty that my personality just clashes with DD's personality. It always has been this way. It makes me really sad and *I'm sure a lot of times I really suck as a parent.* I'm trying to work on it. I don't think I'm manipulative in these situations as much as I'm at the END OF MY ROPE when it comes to patience with her at times. That's all. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure this is something we all have in common


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

You don't suck as a parent! You wouldn't be asking for suggestions if you didn't care. I think you did fine and I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. I think parents over-analyze things way too much and really I don't think parenting has to be that difficult!!! Sure there's always room to do things better but kids are resilient and she isn't going to hate you forever because you made her take a bath!







I make my kids take a bath too. Do they always like it? Nope! And sure if my dd is screaming about having her hair washed we'll try to figure out creative ways of getting it washed but I've got 3 kids to bathe and there's no way I'll spend an hour doing everything creative possible to get her to wash her hair. At some point I'll just do it for her if she's not cooperating.

You're doing fine!


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## seim.ge (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't have time to read through all the posts but I wanted to drop a line...so if someone else has already said this, my apologies!

One thing that came to my mind is...why are you locking yourself away to cry? I know June Cleaver leads us to believe that good moms always look put together and have everything under control, but in reality that's almost never true and it sets a standard for our daughters especially that they can never live up to when we try to be that perfect, idea mom. It may help if you do just cry, or if you let her hear the anger in your voice and see your face turn red and understand that her behavior impacts you in a genuine way.

I am currently raising my own 22 month odl son and my 16 year old sister and I have been pleasantly surprised to see this work on both of them. Obviously you don't want to take this to an extreme where you're actually yelling at your kid, but from what you said in your original post you don't sound like the type who would be prone to that kind of behavior. A little feedback can be helpful for a kid. For example, with the refusing to wash hair situation, it's possible that it could help if you literally throw your towel down and say in a clear, angry tone, "It makes me angry when you refuse to be a team player!" and leave the room for a minute to take a few deep breaths and calm down. When you return and she (hopefully!) allows you to wash your hair, you can follow up by saying, "This is much better. It makes me feel like the luckiest mama in the world when I know that my girl is my friend and she's on my team!" Again though, the focus here is on being a genuine parent, not a perfect parent...and you're not just giving up all self-control and letting your emotions run wild, either. This is just showing your daughter in a more visible way that her behavior is unacceptable because it truly upsets/hurts you.

I can't promise that this will work wonders...but I hope it does, or that something else comes along soon that works for you family! We all get there at some point or another with a behavior that won't go away and can't be tolerated. Don't beat yourself up over this....she will not be stuck in this phase forever!


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think the issue about respect is about respecting people's bodily autonomy. And I personally do think that one person's bodily autonomy, even that of a child, is more important than another's feelings of embarrassment. What happens when your child is older and starts making hair or clothing choices that you find embarrassing and you don't want to be seen with them? And I think telling a child you don't want to be seen in public with them for any reason would be very hurtful when coming from a parent.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. If a child is stinky, he has the choice...bathe or stay at home. It would be hurtful if it were something they had no control over. I wouldn't feel embarrassed if a child had a disability! But if they make the choice NOT to bathe, than that choice has consequences.

If my child is older there will be boundaries as well. If my daughter wants to dress like a hooker, and she has worked to buy those clothes for herself, more power to her. But I won't be going out in public with her. If my son wants to wear his pants with his butt sticking out the back, yay for him. I won't be seen with him dressed like that though.

I really don't understand why our children should have different rules as anyone else we allow in our lives. What I mean is, if my friend hadn't bathed in days and expected to go with me out in public, I would tell them no way! It's almost like you're saying we shouldn't hold our kids to any kind of standard and just allow them to do whatever they want, and we as parents just have to go along with it.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
Holy cow, do you think I don't know my own child? Trust me on this...I've lived with her for 7 years. She wasn't sincerely trying to apologize. I've even had teachers mention that she can be a bit "sneaky" at times and I knew exactly what they meant. I love her to death, but people have different personalities, you know?

I think in all honesty that my personality just clashes with DD's personality. It always has been this way. It makes me really sad and I'm sure a lot of times I really suck as a parent. I'm trying to work on it. I don't think I'm manipulative in these situations as much as I'm at the END OF MY ROPE when it comes to patience with her at times. That's all. Thanks.


I totally get you. And I think it's funny how some people are horrified by the idea that a child would be manipulative. Of course, they are manipulative! Everyone is to an extent, but children are trying to navigate in world with limited control. They will try anything to get what they want until they are taught differently.

In your DD's case with her good behavior followed by the tantrum when she saw it got her no where... a person who WASN'T trying to be manipulative would have behaved better, perhaps apologized, and accepted that even if they did those things they still may not get what they wanted. The fact that she tried to behave better and then had a fit when she didn't get what she wanted is evidence that she just wanted her treat.

Good for you for not giving in! The only way I would have is if I said no we're not getting the treat, and she accepted it calmly. In that case, I may have waited awhile and got her the treat ONLY because I know that she was actually trying to do better.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 

I really don't understand why our children should have different rules as anyone else we allow in our lives. *What I mean is, if my friend hadn't bathed in days and expected to go with me out in public, I would tell them no way!* It's almost like you're saying we shouldn't hold our kids to any kind of standard and just allow them to do whatever they want, and we as parents just have to go along with it.


I can't imagine saying that to a friend. Not at all. There are, you know, some adults, even - who bath every few days or once a week. It's not for me, as I like clean hair daily, but I would never comment on how someone else smelled or if I thought they maybe looked a little dirty.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I can't imagine saying that to a friend. Not at all. There are, you know, some adults, even - who bath every few days or once a week. It's not for me, as I like clean hair daily, but I would never comment on how someone else smelled or if I thought they maybe looked a little dirty.

I'm not saying a bath everyday is necessary. But if my friend and I were planning on going somewhere, and she came over after cutting the grass or working out and actually smelled? Yes, I would definitely say, "girl, go bathe and then we'll go!" Unless we were going to a nursery or gym. lol

Like I said, I think some people are more sensitive to this than others. My husband always bathes after working outside or on a project. My brother will work on his car all day in the hot sun and then have no problem going directly to a restaurant to eat! One of the many reasons I married my husband and not my brother.









I just don't understand how anyone would get their feelings hurt over something so easily remedied.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
I'm sorry, but I don't agree. If a child is stinky, he has the choice...bathe or stay at home. It would be hurtful if it were something they had no control over. I wouldn't feel embarrassed if a child had a disability! But if they make the choice NOT to bathe, than that choice has consequences.

If my child is older there will be boundaries as well. If my daughter wants to dress like a hooker, and she has worked to buy those clothes for herself, more power to her. But I won't be going out in public with her. If my son wants to wear his pants with his butt sticking out the back, yay for him. I won't be seen with him dressed like that though.

*I really don't understand why our children should have different rules as anyone else we allow in our lives.* What I mean is, if my friend hadn't bathed in days and expected to go with me out in public, I would tell them no way! It's almost like you're saying we shouldn't hold our kids to any kind of standard and just allow them to do whatever they want, and we as parents just have to go along with it.

A child isn't someone we _allow into_ our lives. Our child is someone we are responsible for, both physically but emotionally as well. And the "you're saying we shouldn't hold our kids to any kind of standard" is a complete strawman as I never said that. I said that I respect my kids' bodily autonomy. There are tons of ways to work with a child to get a bath done, though it might not be at the exact moment we want. But I think our job as parents is to work with, not do to.

And it would be very hurtful for a child to have their parents say they are embarrassed to go out with them. I can't imagine how you think it wouldn't be hurtful.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Long time lurker to this thread, just jumping in for a sec...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
And it would be very hurtful for a child to have their parents say they are embarrassed to go out with them. I can't imagine how you think it wouldn't be hurtful.

I don't think this is quite fair because the OP said that the "being embarassed" thing was conditional on the being dirty and refusing to bathe. That is just real life. People who are dirty or don't bathe enough have issues in society and the workforce and with relationships, and IMO it's part of a parent's job to teach a child how to function in civilized society. This includes teaching them about good grooming. The embarassment is about the daughter being willfully unwashed, and it can be remedied immediately with a bath. It's not in any way personal, it's just real life. And it's sort of a teaching moment. I don't think it would be great for the child to grow up thinking, for example, that they can bathe as little as they want to and that's perfectly fine and nobody will ever have a problem with it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't understand why it being conditional upon that would make it less hurtful for a child to hear he/she was embarassing to his/her parent.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't understand why it being conditional upon that would make it less hurtful for a child to hear he/she was embarassing to his/her parent.

Because it's not personal, I would think. Because she's talking about not being clean or properly groomed, not about her daughter, herself, being embarassing. I don't know if that would still be hurtful to the child or not.
I guess depends on the child and how sensitive they are, and the whole mother/child relationship.

If it came down to it, as long as it's done as gently as possible I think I'd rather the child suffer hurt feelings for a moment as long as the message about grooming hit home, than NOT have the hurt feelings and go forward thinking that good grooming and regular bathing, etc., are just optional things that she can do if she feels like it, without any social consequences. That'd be negligent parenting IMO.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coffeegirl* 
Because it's not personal, I would think. Because she's talking about not being clean or properly groomed, not about her daughter, herself, being embarassing. I don't know if that would still be hurtful to the child or not.
I guess depends on the child and how sensitive they are, and the whole mother/child relationship.

If it came down to it, as long as it's done as gently as possible I think I'd rather the child suffer hurt feelings for a moment as long as the message about grooming hit home, *than NOT have the hurt feelings and go forward thinking that good grooming and regular bathing, etc., are just optional things that she can do if she feels like it, without any social consequences. That'd be negligent parenting IMO.*

Like you said, though, social consequences will play a part in a child wanting to be groomed. A child whose parents don't force him/her to bathe at 5 is likely to want to start bathing at some time due to social consequences or just peer and parent role-modelling.

Anyways, how do you force a child to take a bath? I am assuming most people don't mean holding a kid down while they kick and scream but this is the image that comes into my head as my 4 yr old would not be having a bath except if we held him down. And that's not going to happen.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

^^ No I don't mean physically force. But there would be consequences for not bathing... like not going out in public with mom.

And honestly, I WOULD tell my child if they embarrassed me in certain situations. If they were misbehaving in public I would definitely tell them that their behavior was not only unacceptable, but also embarrassing for me. Why should I hide that feeling from my child? So they can grow up and think that the feelings of the people they are with don't matter?

IMO, if a child hurts your feelings or embarrasses someone, they SHOULD feel bad whether it's a parent or friend or whomever. In the case of the bath, I would tell the child straight up, you are too dirty to go to such-and-such a place, it would embarrass me to take you there in this condition so either bathe or don't go. I have 2 kids. I can't imagine either one of them being hurt by this comment, but even if they were, it's their choice to bathe or not.

And the problem with always "working with" a child is that when something really important needs to be "done to" them, they will not understand why all of a sudden they can't have a say. I allow my children a choice, but it is on my terms until they are mature enough to make well thought out decisions. As someone who does medical testing on children, believe me when I say it is very difficult for some kids who have never been made to do anything to, well, HAVE to do something.

If you think I inflict emotional damage to my child by telling her I'm embarrassed to be seen with her when she's dirty, I could easily say that you are inflicting emotional damage to yours by allowing her to make decisions she may not be mature enough to make. But more likely we'll just agree to disagree and both of our kids will grow up to be A-OK.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Oh, I wanted to add that on the flip side of this conversation, I promise to not get MY feelings hurt when my children are teenagers, and they constantly tell me that I embarrass THEM.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I already posted for the OP, up thread. But regarding the tangent this has taken, about whether you force a child to bathe or not, I tend to agree with a previous poster who said that ultimately, we're still responsible for our children--that struck a chord with me.

I have a lfriend who is now in her 30's and has mentioned several times that she has a lot of anger towards her parents for letting her be "the smelly girl" in school. They would have been happy if she bathed herself, but if she didn't take the initiative it didn't happen. And under 12, until that peer pressure kicked in, she didn't take the initiative. And now she's angry that she had to be picked on because here parents didn't live up to what she views as their responsibility to care for her as a child.

Not anything I have to deal with yet, as I have a 5 year old who loves her baths still, but food for though for what's to come...


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I already posted for the OP, up thread. But regarding the tangent this has taken, about whether you force a child to bathe or not, I tend to agree with a previous poster who said that ultimately, we're still responsible for our children--that struck a chord with me.

I have a lfriend who is now in her 30's and has mentioned several times that she has a lot of anger towards her parents for letting her be "the smelly girl" in school. They would have been happy if she bathed herself, but if she didn't take the initiative it didn't happen. And under 12, until that peer pressure kicked in, she didn't take the initiative. And now she's angry that she had to be picked on because here parents didn't live up to what she views as their responsibility to care for her as a child.

Not anything I have to deal with yet, as I have a 5 year old who loves her baths still, but food for though for what's to come...

The whole time I was reading about the bath, I was thinking something similar. A few months ago my sister was up visiting and we were goofing around on facebook. She found "the smelly kid" from our school. The really odd thing was, I had mentioned to my 9 year old many times, that he better shower, because no one ever forgets the stinky kid. That moment, it hit home to him. If his aunt remembered the smelly kid, well then maybe mom is right.

To the OP, I think you did fine. You laid out the plan for the rest of the day, she failed to follow through on that plan and didn't get her treat. It doesn't matter why she had to take a bath then, that was the plan and when that plan went awry, so did the rest of the day. Too bad.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Girlprof* 
You know, it actually sounds to me like you're doing fine. You made a reasonable request. She refused. You told her what the consequence would be and she still refused. You didn't give in on the treat, right? Sure, she's mad. She needs to be upset about it or the idea of a consequence won't work.

I read this whole thread and I agree with this most.

Your child is upset and says hurtful things. You have the right to ask her to leave if she can't be polite. My three-year-old, when a consequence is implemented, often says things like, "You don't have love in your heart. You're a mean mother. I don't want you to be my mother." Etc.

I just tell her to please leave, as I don't let people speak to me like that. If she doesn't leave, I lead her out of the room into her own room. I just don't take that from anyone.

I wonder if your going and crying gives your daughter the response she wants--"Now she's sorry she didn't give me what I wanted!" I understand that you are sensitive. My mom used to do that (go and hide) when I was upset. She expected me to interpret her feelings and change. I was incapable of empathising to that degree and felt sad that she could not express clearly what she wanted and stand up for herself when I was asking if something was definite. I wanted the following conversation:

"Now we're going to wash your hair."
"I don't want to."
"Well, you have to because of X, Y, and Z."
"I don't agree with or care about those reasons. I feel angry at you." <--said in a whiny or tantrumy manner, using the rudest, most over-the-top language I could because I was a child.
"Well, society does, and like it or not, you are part of society. So you have to. When you are old enough you can go live in the forest and eat twigs. For now you do what I say. If you do not, I will find a way to make it happen. Sorry but that's life." (My mom NEVER said that to me--I had to figure it out myself, and when I did, I can tell you how resentful I was...)
[I scream.]
[Mother, not personally insulted, but standing firm, puts me in the bath kicking and screaming, gets it over with, and moves on.]

FTR, I think a seven-year-old who is not capable of making a plan to trigger an emotional response in an adult is developmentally behind. Suggesting a child of this age can be manipulative is normal. People can be manipulative, and that includes children.

I am sure some people would say this is not gentle. But gentle does not mean that you never impose a firm limit when the child disagrees. I mean if you've tried compromise etc. etc. and this is simply an area where you cannot agree, the gentlest thing is to enforce the limit without anger.

" I am assuming most people don't mean holding a kid down while they kick and scream but this is the image that comes into my head as my 4 yr old would not be having a bath except if we held him down. And that's not going to happen."

Yes, I mean physically holding her kicking and screaming. Bathing was not an issue for us, but carseats were, as was holding my hand as we crossed the street, and not running off. And at the age of two and three, yes, I have held my child kicking and screaming to cross a street or parking lot, and held her kicking and screaming into a carseat. Bathing is a matter of personal hygiene, a health matter, and I will hold a child kicking and screaming as long as it takes. I have done the hair thing kicking and screaming, too. I'm not going to force my child to get her head shaved simply because that is the natural consequence of not combing.

It is way more gentle to do that than passive-aggressively (as you point out) trying to communicate our frustration at our children's personalities.

My mother was very gentle. She did not like to express clearly and verbally what she wanted and she did not like to stand her ground. Her feeling was that I, the child, should sense how she felt and never argue, and that if I argued, it was a personal insult. I can't tell you how many times I cried at being misunderstood about that, and how bad I felt about myself because of that. I felt that my testing limits was bad, that my mom didn't understand me.

You sound like a great, sensitive mom but you have a tough cookie on your hands.







Good luck.

(Oh yeah, and if you haven't read _Adventures in Gentle Discipline_, I cannot recommend that book enough. It's gentle on both parent and child, it's realistic, it has tons of real-life examples, and most importantly, it avoids the worst of all self-help traps: the lie that life, or parenting, or a child, can somehow be "perfect" or conflict-free. I've read all the books you have and more and AGD is pretty much the only one that doesn't make me want to scream. LOL. It makes me feel like a good mom who CAN DO IT.)


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
^^ No I don't mean physically force. But there would be consequences for not bathing... like not going out in public with mom.

And honestly, I WOULD tell my child if they embarrassed me in certain situations. If they were misbehaving in public I would definitely tell them that their behavior was not only unacceptable, but also embarrassing for me. Why should I hide that feeling from my child? So they can grow up and think that the feelings of the people they are with don't matter?

IMO, if a child hurts your feelings or embarrasses someone, they SHOULD feel bad whether it's a parent or friend or whomever. In the case of the bath, I would tell the child straight up, you are too dirty to go to such-and-such a place, it would embarrass me to take you there in this condition so either bathe or don't go. I have 2 kids. I can't imagine either one of them being hurt by this comment, but even if they were, it's their choice to bathe or not.

Yeah, this.

To the people who are saying that peer pressure will naturally help the kid want to bathe regularly when the time comes....Do you really think that it's a good thing to set your child up for that? When the alternative is so, sooo easy: just be a parent, act like a parent and teach them to bathe themselves! If need be, exert your authority and make them take that bath. Which is the more compassionate action, in the long run? Forcing a child to bathe or setting the kid up to be mocked and bullied by the other kids at school, who are apt to call her "dirty" or worse? You wanna talk about "hurt feelings"?







I've seen it, I've experienced it when I was in school and that's the kind of hurt and shame that can still sting years and years later. I'd want to spare my child any needless embarassment or social difficulties.

And, again....I believe it's a parents JOB (part of it anyhow) to teach our kids how to bathe and groom themselves.

It's no different, in my eyes, then "forcing" a diaper change on a baby who just hates to have his diaper changed. (Like my nephew, for instance.) Yes, I care about the baby's feelings, but that diaper has got to be changed, you know? Whether he feels I am violating his personal autonomy or not.


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## MissMaegie'sMama (Jul 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I already posted for the OP, up thread. But regarding the tangent this has taken, about whether you force a child to bathe or not, I tend to agree with a previous poster who said that ultimately, we're still responsible for our children--that struck a chord with me.

I have a lfriend who is now in her 30's and has mentioned several times that she has a lot of anger towards her parents for letting her be "the smelly girl" in school. They would have been happy if she bathed herself, but if she didn't take the initiative it didn't happen. And under 12, until that peer pressure kicked in, she didn't take the initiative. And now she's angry that she had to be picked on because here parents didn't live up to what she views as their responsibility to care for her as a child.

Not anything I have to deal with yet, as I have a 5 year old who loves her baths still, but food for though for what's to come...

Your friend could be me. I was never told I needed to bathe when I was a child-- my mom ran me a bath maybe 2x per week. I was an active, ourdoorsy kid who could have used baths waaay more often than once or twice a week.

I went through puberty relatively early and though I never really "stunk," I was always running aroung with long, tangled, and dirty hair and grungy skin. By the time I was in 5th, 6th grade, my mom was exasperated with me because I kept the laissez faire grooming/hygeine habits of my childhood. I think she thought I would just magically "pick up" on the expectation that I needed to bathe daily and "do" my hair every morning, etc. when I reached ten/eleven/twelve or whatever age. In fifth and sixth grade I was ostracized by my peers because of my grooming. By seventh grade I had figured out I needed to bathe regularly, but by then the social damage had been done.

I expect my 11-year-old son to shower each day, and I help my young daughters bathe as needed (generally not daily, yet). For them, I insist on regular handwashing, hairbrushing, and freshening up with a damp wash cloth each morning and evening. This has nothing to do with wanting to "control" my children. Rather it has to do with teaching them habits that my experience tells me will serve them well as teens/adults. Believe me, it's easier for a child to hear "Time for a shower" from mom or dad than it is to hear "You're a dirtball" from a classmate, or "We've had complaints about your hygiene" from a boss.


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## thehighernest (Aug 11, 2009)

I think we've created a bit of a false scenario here. I don't think anyone here recommended not addressing a situation where a child refuses to bathe for weeks, any long period of time, ever, etc.

I think people were referring to a child not wanting to take a bath on a particular day at a particular time. These are hardly the same thing, no? I'm not sure how to address _that_ problem, but it seems like a completely different thing than a kid feeling defiant one particular evening for X reason.

I guess I can sort of see the connection people are trying to make: but I can't see how telling a kid "okay, you don't want to take a bath right now" will necessarily result in a child with a for-life bath-hating habit.

Again, I have no experience with the OP's child's age range, but for instance, with the example of the baby/toddler diaper: my son - he's not doing it that much anymore, but a few months ago he hit the stage when it was impossible to get him still for a diaper change. Did I have the option to pin my child down and change his diaper by force? Well, I suppose that's technically an option...









I could also just wait a few minutes, give him my attention otherwise, talk to him, soothe him, etc. and then address again the need to change the diaper. Guess what? The diaper gets changed without a battle then.

I'm not saying this is equivalent to the situation that started this thread. But I don't think that the scenarios presented recently are equivalent either...


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"I could also just wait a few minutes, give him my attention otherwise, talk to him, soothe him, etc. and then address again the need to change the diaper. Guess what? The diaper gets changed without a battle then."

I think that with toddlers, it is a lot easier to use distraction, whereas some older children hold grudges. My own child remembers things for days and keeps at it.

And people are bringing up cases in which parents didn't force bathing, and it did not solve the issue. It was not a case of distracting the child, soothing them, then coming back with an alternative. It was that the parent may have tried this, and tried everything, and finally decided that the only alternative left was to either force the child, or let them go without a bath.

So they let them go without.

"I can't see how telling a kid "okay, you don't want to take a bath right now" will necessarily result in a child with a for-life bath-hating habit."

No, it's rare that the rude awakening does not come in middle-school, when the child's peers inform her in no uncertain terms that she stinks.

If you think that hurts less and/or is somehow preferable to a parent gently explaining this to a child when they are younger and more malleable, I'd like to know why.

I, too, was the child of a parent that told me precious little of society's expectations of me.

I learned the expectations the hard way. My mother always told me that she was concerned that I didn't have good social skills. I think I was 27 when I told her that I wished SHE had taught me those skills, just by TELLING me and hammering it home.

Instead of "gently" letting me be awkward throughout school and figure it out reading psychology articles throughout high-school and college. How gentle! I'll never do that to my kids.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My suggestion was asking whether she wanted to take a bath before or after they went out, and that's somehow been turned into having a child who never bathes to the point where she gets teased in junior high. There are options between forcing a child kicking and screaming to take a bath, and having a child who never bathes. There is a false dichotomy being set up here.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Your idea of a choice is a great start. I personally start feeling passive-aggressive and really need creative ideas when my child responds to the choice with, "NEVER!!!!! Not now, not EVER!" (She's three, not seven, LOL!) "Green or red sweater?" "Purple." "But you don't have a purple one. These are y-" "PUUUUUURRRRRPPLE!"









Sometimes the whole imaginary choice thing just doesn't fool them.

So I was more responding to people who indicated that they would NEVER force a bath or bathing. I think that having that limit for yourself can lead with many children to the no-bathing scenario. It happens often enough!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Taking a bath before or after you go out is a more real choice than whether you wear a red or purple sweater. There's a higher level of control with taking a bath at a different time, when it works better for the child, than simply wearing a different color sweater but still wearing a sweater. My older dd didn't go for false choices either.

And I would never FORCE a bath. When she was not wanting a bath, I asked her why. We talked about it and it took a bit of digging but I foudn out tht se didn't like how I rinsed her hair, and she thought that baths were boring. So we got some bath crayons or something fun, and I worked on different ways to rinse her hair.

I was a child who never wanted to bathe, and it was because my mom made such a huge issue of it and would try to force it and it made me dig my heels in and refuse even more.


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## thehighernest (Aug 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My suggestion was asking whether she wanted to take a bath before or after they went out, and that's somehow been turned into having a child who never bathes to the point where she gets teased in junior high. There are options between forcing a child kicking and screaming to take a bath, and having a child who never bathes. There is a false dichotomy being set up here.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say. Thank you for saying it much more succinctly than I did!

"No, it's rare that the rude awakening does not come in middle-school, when the child's peers inform her in no uncertain terms that she stinks." - Again, this is not what was being discussed in the OP scenario at all. I'm not quite sure how we even got to that - but this was something brought up much later. I am not advocating NOT addressing the child who never wants to bathe and who will, as a result, face peer issues.

We were discussing a child who refused one thing -- in this case, it happened to be a bath, but it could have been anything. The issue was one of "defiance," not of regularly not wanting to bathe. So the point is we were going off topic.

And to be honest, either way, if a child doesn't want to bathe regularly, there's a reason for that. I don't think telling him/her that he doesn't want to grow up to be the "stinky" kid in school and then forcing a bath is the solution to getting him/her to bathe! Why not try to figure out why bath time is such a sucky experience for that child in the first place?

And also: "So I was more responding to people who indicated that they would NEVER force a bath or bathing" -- I think that people who are saying the would "never force a bath" aren't also necessarily saying that they wouldn't address the issue. In other words, they are probably saying that they would try to find the problem/solution through gentle methods rather than by withhold things and/or physically forcing a child into the shower. It's not all or nothing.

But maybe we should start a "what to do with a child who doesn't want to bathe" thread instead, lol.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My suggestion was asking whether she wanted to take a bath before or after they went out, and that's somehow been turned into having a child who never bathes to the point where she gets teased in junior high. There are options between forcing a child kicking and screaming to take a bath, and having a child who never bathes. There is a false dichotomy being set up here.

There's not a false dichotomy being set up. There's just two concurrent conversation threads going on at the same time, I think. The original problem of the OP and the detour/tangent some of us have jumped into re: is it ever appropriate to force a child a bath, and at what cost do you let your child have ultimate control over their bodies, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thehighernest* 
"No, it's rare that the rude awakening does not come in middle-school, when the child's peers inform her in no uncertain terms that she stinks." - Again, this is not what was being discussed in the OP scenario at all. I'm not quite sure how we even got to that - but this was something brought up much later. I am not advocating NOT addressing the child who never wants to bathe and who will, as a result, face peer issues.

The conversation got to this point from both sides, when it was suggested a few pages ago that the OP was in the wrong for trying to force a bath on the child in any case. And then other people replied about the importance of teaching good grooming, and others countered with it's more important to preserve a child's autonomy and protect against hurt feelings, etc., etc. And it went on from there.

Quote:

We were discussing a child who refused one thing -- in this case, it happened to be a bath, but it could have been anything. The issue was one of "defiance," not of regularly not wanting to bathe. So the point is we were going off topic.
Yes, we're definitely getting off the original topic.








I'd be game for the "what to do with a child who doesn't want to bathe" thread, if anyone wants to start one...


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Taking a bath before or after you go out is a more real choice than whether you wear a red or purple sweater. There's a higher level of control with taking a bath at a different time, when it works better for the child, than simply wearing a different color sweater but still wearing a sweater. My older dd didn't go for false choices either.

Not for mine. For her, "now" or "later" is all included in "sometime" as opposed to "never".

Quote:

And I would never FORCE a bath. When she was not wanting a bath, I asked her why. We talked about it and it took a bit of digging but I foudn out tht se didn't like how I rinsed her hair, and she thought that baths were boring. So we got some bath crayons or something fun, and I worked on different ways to rinse her hair.
I agree that there are so, so many things that parents can do before resorting to ultimatums. But I also think that when it comes to health and safety, parents do need to have a way to have limits without feeling guilty about it and getting passive-aggressive.

Some kids are limit-testers. It's not a manipulation thing. They just... test limits. I was one of them. I don't know why I do it.







I STILL do it sometimes! For me, a limit is not when someone feels bad. That's their problem.

A limit is when it becomes my problem, LOL!

So that is all I'm saying to the OP. Not, forget how to talk to your child, forget empathy, just force her.

I'm saying, as a parent you will feel better if you know your limits and you are able to enforce them.

I am saying this because she already seems committed to being gentle with her child, but gentle negotiation (in certain circumstances) is making her feel resentful and sad. It's not working.

If it were someone saying, "My toddler won't take a bath no matter how much I scream," I'd have different advice entirely!


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## Luke's mama (Sep 29, 2009)

Sorry I have not read all the posts, but for the OP, I just started reading Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline and Unconditional Parenting and some of the ideas in there really made me think of your situation. Especially in the first one about learning to be assertive and overcoming passive tendencies (chapter 4, I think) and also in UP, some of the problems that arise when we use rewards and punishment (especially taking away promised rewards) to punish unwanted behavior. Hope this helps.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Good points made here! It seems the conversation has turned in this thread (again??







). I don't think anyone said anything about physically forcing a child to bathe! Some people tried to make that leap from some comments earlier about having consequences for not bathing which is NOT the same thing.

For a toddler of pre-schooler, I think enough bubbles and tub toys in a full bath would entice them to get in? At least with mine it did. I wouldn't even know HOW to physically force a child older than that! Head lock maybe? Full nelson?









So getting down to the nitty gritty. Isn't the real question whether a dirty kid is the parent's issue (mom needs to get over it) or the kid's (kid needs to take a bath). I don't understand why some people are opposed to consequences if the child is dirty. There are consequences if you go to the store barefoot (no shirt, no shoes, no service, right?) because as a society we've decided that it's gross. What's wrong with us teaching our kids that at home instead of unleashing them dirty and barefoot to learn in the harsh world?


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## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

To the OP, this is a VERY good book (and I also took the class...you could probably google it to see if there's one in your area but the book alone would be very helpful). I think it would be a good resource for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Redirecting-Ch.../dp/1884734308


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brokenheart* 
I think I am, but who knows I guess. Sometimes there aren't any choices to be had...we need things to happen (ex: we need to go somewhere, we need to do something). So in those cases, there aren't choices. But I think overall she has plenty of leeway/free time. Maybe she doesn't feel that way.

The thing I really struggle with is how to respond to her mouthiness/disrespectful behaviour. I can honestly say my sibling and I would _never_ have talked to my mom the way she talks to me. I don't mean she calls me names or anything. But she is very mouthy ("No, I don't have to!" "I don't care!" "I don't like you" etc). I am very reasonable. I am kind. I try to stay calm/matter of fact and have natural consequences. It is like she wants a power struggle over the dumbest things (like whether or not to brush her teeth before bed). I certainly don't control her every waking moment. In fact, I'm actually a *really* laid back parent. I can never understand why, when we are having a nice time, she wants to ruin it by arguing about something so trivial/routine.

So since what I'm currently doing isn't working well, I am wondering if I should try being more heavy handed and authortarian (SO not me







). I am gentle by nature. I don't like yelling or arguments. Get it so she knows I won't take any attitude/rude behavior and I won't listen to her rant and rave or talk back to me. My friend is like this, and her kids are very well behaved. They would never talk back. I'm jealous. But I want my DD to love/respect/trust me. Not fear me. Oh, parenting is soooooooooo hard.


I have only read the responses up until this post (the one I am quoting), so I am sorry if I am reapeting stuff:

Is it possible that you are TOO laidback? In my own life, I am a very laidback/freedomoriented parent. But my son doesn`t respond well to that. at all. He needs to KNOW what do to, what is allowed etc. He needs boundaries and he needs ME to be very clear about where MY boundaries are.

Have you read anything by the Danish writer Jesper Juul? (http://www.amazon.com/Your-Competent...6951175&sr=8-1) He is amazing, and the most popular GD-writer in Scandinavia. (I`m Norwegian.) He is of the mindset that children need lots of freedom, but they need parents that are parents and guides, not just friends. He says that kids don`t need boundaries around themselves mostly, but they need to see where other peoples boundaries are, and that absolutely includes the parents.

I am just like you. Very likely to be caught up in my kids feelings/emotions. And very likely to let him cross my boundaries, too ensure I am not too strict etc. But it`s not a good thing. And my son gest confused. He is a child, and he needs to feel that the world/the family/our relathinshp isn`t HIS responsibility, but mine.

I am NOT saying this is your "issue", but just offering support and advice.







I hope I haven`t offended you.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My suggestion was asking whether she wanted to take a bath before or after they went out, and that's somehow been turned into having a child who never bathes to the point where she gets teased in junior high. There are options between forcing a child kicking and screaming to take a bath, and having a child who never bathes. There is a false dichotomy being set up here.

I agree, letting the child choose when is absolutely the best option. Except, in the OP`s case it wasn`t doable. She has stated many times that the child actually couldn`t bath after. She also stated ones that the water was going to get turned off, so the only chance was before shopping.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **LoveBugMama** 
I agree, letting the child choose when is absolutely the best option. Except, in the OP`s case it wasn`t doable. She has stated many times that the child actually couldn`t bath after. She also stated ones that the water was going to get turned off, so the only chance was before shopping.









I'm not willing to accept that there were no other possibilities. There are almost always other possibilities. Then a bath right away after the water gets turned back on, or a sponge bath right away and a full bath after the water gets turned back on. I think where a child's bodily autonomy is involved, it's important to keep working until you find a solution that is acceptable to them.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"I'm not willing to accept that there were no other possibilities. There are almost always other possibilities."

We're a military family. We could get kicked out of our home (military housing) if my husband messes up at work, and I am sometimes required to, say, get my children minimally dressed to drive him somewhere (if I need the car later and he has to carry 100 lbs of goods with him, work is 3 miles away). So for us, we FREQUENTLY come up with a situation where the child must forgo her own desires in order to help our family.

For those of us who face daily bouts of is-it-really-necessary-why-can't-they-just-comply-ugh-he'll-lose-his-job-what-will-we-do*, the suggestion that there's always a work-around is so frustrating.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I didn't say anything about forgoing desires. I said that this is in regard to issues of bodily autonomy only. I don't work as hard on finding consensual agreements on every other issue. But issues of bodily autonomy are a big deal to me. My kids own their bodies and get to ultimately decide what happens to them. If something is important to me, such as that they take a bath, I explain how I feel, which is never that I'd be embarrassed to be with them but has been that I don't want people to think I don't take proper care of them, and I work with them. Well the older one as the other one is a young toddler. But I work with her and we talk about it. "I dont' want to take a bath now." "The water is going to be turned off later, and I need you to take a bath before X because of Y (which might be that I don't want people to think I'm not taking care of her properly). How are we going to work this out?" And we do work it out. Usually, when I explain where I'm at, she would just take a bath or whatever needs to be done. Or she'd come up with an alternative. I don't always prefer the alternative to my way, but if it's workable I go with it.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'm not willing to accept that there were no other possibilities. There are almost always other possibilities. Then a bath right away after the water gets turned back on, or a sponge bath right away and a full bath after the water gets turned back on. I think where a child's bodily autonomy is involved, it's important to keep working until you find a solution that is acceptable to them.

But what happens if none of the options offered are acceptable to the child? What if it's become a struggle of the wills or over who has control and the child is just insisting that she doesn't want a bath _at all_? (I'm not just being random, btw...I've seen this kind of thing happen.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I didn't say anything about forgoing desires. I said that this is in regard to issues of bodily autonomy only. I don't work as hard on finding consensual agreements on every other issue. But issues of bodily autonomy are a big deal to me. My kids own their bodies and get to ultimately decide what happens to them. If something is important to me, such as that they take a bath, I explain how I feel, which is never that I'd be embarrassed to be with them but has been that I don't want people to think I don't take proper care of them, and I work with them. Well the older one as the other one is a young toddler. But I work with her and we talk about it. "I dont' want to take a bath now." "The water is going to be turned off later, and I need you to take a bath before X because of Y (which might be that I don't want people to think I'm not taking care of her properly). How are we going to work this out?" And we do work it out. Usually, when I explain where I'm at, she would just take a bath or whatever needs to be done. Or she'd come up with an alternative. I don't always prefer the alternative to my way, but if it's workable I go with it.

To continue my train of thought from the first quote...What if there is no workable alternative that you or she is able to come up with? What if they just say "no" and that's it-- no amount of negotiation or choices offered are acceptable to the child. Like I said, I've seen situations like this in my own family. One time, it was even over taking a bath- just like the OP.

In other words, I understand that you value your child's autonomy, but to what extent will you take that? Sometimes kids will just flat-out refuse and dig in their heels, you know?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I take it on a case-by-case basis, but I find it doesn't come up that often if I really put an effort into finding something that works for both of us, and if my dd trusts that I will do that. But, on the occasions where we aren't able to come to an agreement, sometimes I do force things, sometimes I let things slide until later, depending on how important it is. A one-time bath issue isn't that important, so I'd probably let that slide if it came to it, but I think we'd probably be able to find some kind of agreement.


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelmendi* 
I actually think that telling a child they won't get a treat unless they bathe is _less_ manipulative then tricking them into washing themselves by splashing in buckets.

My mother is very interested in non-violent communication and such, and honestly, it has always seemed very, very manipulative to me. If someone wants something from me, I want them to say it outright, and if they don't accept my 'no' I want them to say that outright too, not try to trick me into doing what they wanted me to do.

I'm chiming into this discussion quite late, but I did lurk my way thru the whole thread. It's so interesting to see such an array of different GD perspectives. I found myself really wanting to comment on the above quote, from a conflict resolution practitioner's perspective (and as mama of a 7 year old







).

The whole premise behind conflict resolution theory is to find a mutually acceptable resolution to a conflict. This is what many of the parents on this thread are talking about - even if they aren't using those terms. Brainstorming options to find out a resolution that works to get everybody's needs met does work most of the time, whether you are talking about a conflict in a workplace, an international dispute, or a 7 year old who does not want to take a bath. The key is to figure out what everyone really *wants* (their interests) behind what they are *saying* they want (their positions). Many mamas on this thread have advocated asking *why* the OP's DD objected to the bath. What need was she seeking to meet by objecting? Was she tired? Was she looking for fun and the bath did not meet that need? Did she just want some say in what she got to do? It's hard to talk about what options might have met her needs without knowing more about what they were - to find that out, you'd have to ask the DD!

My own 7 YO DD is a soccer-playin', tree-climbin', rough and tumble kiddo. She's not big on hygeine either (and in fact, recently yelled, in response to my request that she shower following a soccer game, "whoever invented cleanliness ought to be arrested!"







) and these kinds of issues crop up frequently for us. When it happens I try to find out what's going on for her. Often I find out her objection is that in her mind, stopping the business of life to get clean is just not FUN. And having fun is a legitimate need, especially for kids!

So we try to find ways to make things fun. Often I read to her while she showers. Sometimes we pretend she's in a spa and I talk in a funny accent and pretend I'm offering her all these services. Sometimes I'm OK with her doing a "rinsie tub" where she stands in the tub while it's running and runs a quick washcloth all over her body, then throws on a baseball hat to hide grubby hair. Is this manipulative? I guess it depends on how you define the word. I was often told that picking up my baby when she cried was a poor response to her trying to manipulate me. If by "manipulate" you mean we are trying to have some say in a situation to get what we want, then sure, it is. And I don't see why that's a bad thing, if everyone is happy.

[When my DH is looking for some lovin', I notice he tries to "maniuplate" me, too - he might offer to take the dog for his nightly walk (usually my job), might set up the coffee pot on automatic brew (usually my job), might sit close to me and rub my shoulders, or might try to chat with me instead of picking up the clicker and getting absorbed in "Extreme Catch."]

So, is chasing a toddler around with a wet cloth to inspire giggles in lieu of an actual tub manipulative? Maybe, but if my need to have my toddler clean is met, while she has fun in the bargain, so much the better.

OP, I would also reccommend a book that I *love* - I'm sorry I can't think of the co-authors' names right at this moment - it is "Respectful Parents/Respectful Kids." It definitely draws on the non violent communication the poster I quoted above was objecting to, but I think it's fabulous, and would add it to the mix of great titles already mentioned here.

Finally, I too, think you are doing a great job as a parent. You obviously care tremendously about your relationship with your DD, and you are recognizing the challenges in parenting her and are seeking to figure out how to handle them better. I think that's all we can ask of ourselves as parents!


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I didn't say anything about forgoing desires. I said that this is in regard to issues of bodily autonomy only. I don't work as hard on finding consensual agreements on every other issue. But issues of bodily autonomy are a big deal to me. My kids own their bodies and get to ultimately decide what happens to them. If something is important to me, such as that they take a bath, *I explain how I feel, which is never that I'd be embarrassed to be with them but has been that I don't want people to think I don't take proper care of them*, and I work with them. Well the older one as the other one is a young toddler. But I work with her and we talk about it. "I dont' want to take a bath now." "The water is going to be turned off later, and I need you to take a bath before X because of Y (which might be that I don't want people to think I'm not taking care of her properly). How are we going to work this out?" And we do work it out. Usually, when I explain where I'm at, she would just take a bath or whatever needs to be done. Or she'd come up with an alternative. I don't always prefer the alternative to my way, but if it's workable I go with it.

I love the distinction you make here.







What you do is describe the emotion of embarrassment, not wanting people to think you don't take proper care of your children, and then act shocked when I simply say the word embarrassed to my kids? Would it help if I said that I would explain to my kids WHY it would be embarrassing for me? Because in fact I give the same reason you do only that feeling I would label "embarassment".

I have no problem working out different solutions to problems with my kids, but I feel like you are being a little judgemental based on your level of comfort. You say in your answer above that you don't work as hard to be consensual on other issues. Maybe one of those issues is something I would care less about. But I'm not telling you to change your priorities.

Personally, I think cleanliness and general neatness is important and something that is learned. Would I make it a huge fight all the time if my child refused to bathe...no, like you I would find a workable solution that would cause the least amount of resistance. But I also think that sometimes if the kid loses out on something because they just don't want to bathe, that's ok too. It's their choice how they want to deal with the situation, but I'm not a slave to their decision!

I wanted to ask, how do you handle a situation like toothbrushing? Some kids just don't want anything in their mouths. Would that be something you would force? Not physically, of course, but if you exhausted all strategies for finding a way the child would accept.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm not telling people what their priorities should be, just stating my priorities. And I do see a distinction between "I dont' want people to think badly of me" and "I'd be embarrassed by you", but if you don't, that's cool. We can do things differently and have different opinions about this.

When toothbrushing was an issue, I took my dd out and had her choose whatever fancy toothbrush she wanted, which she thought was great fun and got her brushing, but I am lucky to have the financial ability to do things like that and I understand other people might not.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Oh, and what I've had to force is mainly getting my dd together to get on the school bus on time. Like, get on your shoes right this second. So we all have our own issues we deal with, and I'm certainly not perfect and haven't found an answer to that problem. If I've come off as judgmental, it wasn't my intention, and I apologize.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

I guess it's how you picture it in your mind as well. I mean, if you picture me as Mommie Dearest screaming at my child that she's an embarrassment, yeah I'd agree that was wrong. But your explanation of your feelings is exactly how I feel, and I don't see any problem in telling my kid's that their dirty condition embarrasses me.

I felt it was judgemental only because you sort of made it seem like because control over their own body's is important to you that it should be important to everyone. Unfortunately, I see the results of that, like I said before. I do medical testing on kids, and they don't always have a say over what's happening to their bodies. I think the kids that have complete control over their own body's would be much more traumatized by a forced medical procedure than one who is at least somewhat used to a parent making them do some things they may not like.

I think you were very lucky with the toothbrushing only because I know kids that wouldn't have been persuaded by fun toothpaste, and you might have had to then make the choice of forcing a child to do something or dealing with the consequences of rotten teeth.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I was inspired much more from baggage from my mom than anything specific from you.









Also, maybe we should take this to PM if we want to talk more, as I'm afraid this thread is getting way off topic.


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