# Another awful visit with Aunt & Uncle--update #39



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Some of you may remember my thread on this last July, describing how BIL & SIL treated 4 yo dd during a visit to our house:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1105539

We waited 7 months before trying to visit them again, this time at their house, counting on the fact that it would be easier for dd. Wow, did their true colours ever show. It was such a toxic environment that I have decided I don't ever want dd1 to see them again.

The irony is that she & her little cousin, now 2.5 had a great time together for the most part, giggling, chasing, playing fun games. That was the only good part of the visit. Lowlights include:

-BIL. He was a complete and utter a** for the first 20 mins we were there, hovering over dd and constantly correcting her even when she wasn't doing anything. After 20 mins of that I lost it & told dp to talk to him. She told him to lay off dd1, not to be sarcastic with her (a big problem in the past, when he would make 'jokes' that were hurtful and went over her head) and to be nice to her. How did he respond? He STOPPED talking to her AT ALL. My heart broke watching dd1 try and engage him, even say hello or good morning to him, only for him to IGNORE her. Dd2 would toddle by and he would coo and fuss over her, but would ignore dd1. I am livid thinking about this.









-Both dp & I now strongly suspect that BIL does not view dd1 as his 'real niece'. Let me give a bit of background: we are a same-sex couple, married for 10 years. Dd1 is my biochild, Dd2 is dp's biochild. They are BOTH equally our children, we are their moms, legally and in every other sense, always has been always will be. BIL, due to his religious beliefs, disapproves of our relationship, and he treated me as a 2nd class family member for years. We THOUGHT this was largely resolved, but it appears he is instead displacing it onto his 4yo niece. I have no words for how angry this makes me.

-MIL seemed to be anxious that dd1 would offend BIL & SIL and as a result, hovered over, constantly correcting her (even when dp & I were right there!) and negatively comparing her to her cousin, who was clearly the favoured child. MIL is not normally like this, she is usually a loving grandma who can be a bit overbearing, but not too bad. This past weekend? She was TOXIC.

-SIL to her credit was much nicer, though she didn't voluntarily engage with any of our kids, playing, talking to them etc. But at least she responded warmly to them. She has other issues with dp & I (similar to BIL) but at least she was civil.

So that's it. I am DONE with BIL. But it is hard to think of walking away from my girls only cousin, the adorable 2.5 yo neice who we love very much. I will NOT expose my dd to her only uncle again though.

And I'm not sure how to resolve things with MIL, I am really really mad at her as well, but she does not respond well to negative feedback at all, and I don't even know where to start.

thanks for letting me vent.


----------



## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Wow, that's just horrible all around. I'm glad DD has you & DP as parents, though, because sometimes it can be hard to protect your kids from family but it sounds like you are both on the same page regarding how they need to treat your kids.


----------



## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

Oh yuck. I think in your shoes I would choose to not have any contact anymore.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

thanks for the affirmation.

In all my venting, I forgot to add a question: Do you think we should try to process/explain any of this to dd? She is a very perceptive kid, very sensitive. I think she likely picked up on all the tension & negativity. I'm really unsure as to whether I should say something, and risk making her think about it or giving her more to be upset about. But I also worry that by ignoring it or not mentioning it, she may be suffering in silence. I asked her if she had fun she said she liked that her baby dd wasn't getting into stuff so she had more attention (But I think she took that from some comments we made on how well childproofed their place is).

What do you think?


----------



## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

Absolutely explain to her. Then as your children get older, make sure they both understand what kind of boundaries are in place with their aunt and uncle and why.

She already senses the climate -- they both do -- and having it addressed in a way that respects their age and temperament is the most loving thing to do.

I am so furious for all of you.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Thanks Maria...you're right, that makes sense, I'm sure they do both sense the climate.
Any ideas as to how to explain this to them in a way they would understand? It just makes me sick thinking about it.


----------



## SoulCakes (Dec 23, 2009)

Oh my goodness!

How in the world would a 4yo OFFEND a grown man?!

What a horrible situation. How sad that SIL is the nice one for being warm to your children, if not actually engaging with them. Sigh.

Please keep your kids away from these people. They'll be fine without their cousin. At the very least, her presence isn't going to make up for the torture these people are putting your kids through.

Goodness.


----------



## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

We had religious differences with extended family and just tried to make mild general statements when our (adult) kids were younger (we kept it shorter and at intervals): "Aunt X and Uncle Y are very scared and sad about Topic Z. This keeps them from behaving kindly towards someone who is / does ABC. We miss spending time with them and hope we can again when they're able to respect our family."

Then invite your niece to come over without them.


----------



## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm afraid I'd have to say goodbye to any relationship with these people. They obviously are not a healthy couple for your children to be around! I would just explain to dd that her aunt and uncle are mad at you and dp because they don't like that she has 2 mommies, and sadly they took it out on her which wasn't very nice. Simple, to the point and accurate. Unfortunately she may encounter that in the future somewhere along the way, and by addressing it matter of factly rather than dwelling on it or ignoring it, you set the stage for her in the future that that's just how some people are and it's not your family's problem if that makes any sense.

I know you want her to have a relationship with her cousin, but you really need to think about that as well here. Kids learn what they hear at home until they're teens at a the earliest. Your neice is going to hear your BIL's comments after you leave, see the negativity, etc. and it probably won't be long before she picks up on it. This would not be a healthy playmate for your dd to have once that happens. Better imo to not foster a frienship now than have it get really ugly for your dd down the road.

As for MIL, I'd just have dp simply tell her that your family won't be visiting with BIL any longer as the way your dd was treated by everyone in the house was unacceptable and leave it at that. She'll get the hint if she is aware of how she was acting, but this isn't pointing a finger and saying "YOU did this" and getting her on the defensive.

I'm so sorry. People are just rude and insensitive sometimes.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

thanks for the helpful suggestions on how to explain this, Maria & SunshineJ.
It's ironic, you know. I haven't had to address homophobia with my girls yet, because we choose our friends & playmates at the moment and we are currently homeschooling so it hasn't been an issue. How sad that we need to address because of a family member. But it's so true that it would be better to give an explanation than have poor dd thinking it was somehow her fault.....

And yes, I agree that we should cut off contact. It is much harder & more painful for dp because this is her brother, her only sibling, her dad died 32 years ago and they had been close. And MIL tends to get very defensive of him....golden child and all that. But it is the right thing to do, I think.


----------



## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

i'm sorry you've had to deal with all this!

i just wanted to chime in with some thoughts about growing up without a relationship to an aunt and uncle and two cousins that live nearby.

basically, my aunt is crazy... always has been, always will be. fortunately not cruel or hateful, but definitely not a healthy person to be around, which is evidenced by BOTH her children being in intensive hospital care at one time or another for severe pyschological problems and disorders (including anorexia). personally, i'm glad my mom decided to stop trying to have a relationship with them. she kept things very neutral when we were younger and did see them more frequently (like once every couple of years, as opposed to now... where i've seen them once in 12 years)... but i certainly knew something was wrong with her and their whole family dynamic, and my mom was as honest as she could be without giving us unnecessary information. it was stressful and unpleasant for me to be at their house, and i knew that from a very young age.

i feel bad about the loss of a potential relationship, but not the actual one... like, i wish i had a normal aunt and uncle that lived close by so i could have cousins to interact with, but i never regret not having any relationship with those people as they are. my mom still tries once in a while, especially with her nieces, but nothing has ever really come of it.

your daughter will absolutely be ok without this negative influence in her life. when she is older and can fully understand it, she will be even more ok with it. at that point, she might try to reach out to her cousin, and if that works out, it'll be great, but i don't think anyone will really mourn the loss of this relationship as it is right now.


----------



## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

I think you are absolutely correct in not exposing DD 1 to any more [email protected] It is toxic and that stays with a person for a lifetime. I liked Maria's suggestion of having your neice over, maybe even for sleepovers at some point....I think that would be a good way of keeping the cousins in contact with each other without all the drama. As for MIL, my tw cents is to let the situation die down a bit and then have DP address her about it. It's her parent, and she probably needs to be the one to bring it up.


----------



## crl (May 9, 2004)

You mention that it will be painful to your dp to cut-off her brother. I wonder if that's necessary? It may be. I just wanted to offer the possibility that you and the children could cease contact while your dp does not.

Our situation is not nearly so fraught, but my ILs rather disapprove of me. So I virtually never talk with them and don't see them much. DH still talks with them fairly often. It works for us.

Catherine


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Let me give a bit of background: we are a same-sex couple, married for 10 years. Dd1 is my biochild, Dd2 is dp's biochild."

Oh. OH. It is now all disgustingly clear, their behavior. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

In your shoes, I'd also cut off contact. There's nothing you can do to make your ILs treat your DD1 like a relative, but you can certainly make it clear that your family is package deal, and they don't get to choose which children to acknowledge.


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

That is horrendous behaviour and you should not subject your dd to that at all.

That said, getting creative to find ways to spend time with your niece as she grows may be worth. I say this as someone who grew up in a very small-minded environment and will forever be thankful that other people stayed in my life and showed me a better mindset.


----------



## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

I am returning this thread. Please remember our User Agreement to post respectfully towards other members. Thank you for your cooperation.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

thanks for bringing back the thread. I am still sick over the whole thing. But I feel clear that I do not want dd to see them again (unless there is concrete evidence of change & recognition of their behaviour & it roots....which is a lot to ask for!). The implications of this are hard though. MIL would be heartbroken if we did this, even though the reality is we don't see them very often, and see her much much more often.

I still haven't talked to dd but plan to do so soon as I really feel this is important.


----------



## Veronika01 (Apr 16, 2007)

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. In my opinion, the best thing you can do for your family is to cut off contact with them. My TWIN sister perpetually treated my children like that, even worse at times. We briefly stopped talking to them in October of 2008 and then tried again in 2009, after she flew into a rage when I asked her to speak to my children in a decent way. She cursed and screamed at us (in my car) and when I asked her about it 5 months later, she blamed US for the way she acted. She said my 5 yr old son pushed her buttons and he did XYZ to cause her to act like that. She refused to apologise. It broke my heart. In July of last year, she started cursing me about my dog (we were running late and he was outside) and it was the last straw. I watched her scream at my children when they got close to her the whole evening and then she intimidated my (then) 18 month old daughter. My little girl walked up to her and smiled at her and she stared at her so coldly and angrily that my little one got flustered and didn't know what to do or where to look. Ofcourse, she has no idea that I was watching her the whole evening. She cursed me and I told her exactly what I thought of her and her behaviour. We haven't spoken since. They showed up at my parents' place once when we were there and she started her lovey dovey attitude with my children ("How are you sweetie?" Blech!). I completely ignored her, packed up my family and left. My parents know better than to invite her over when we're there, or vice versa now.

It's not easy. But your children are more important than a relationship with family who can't treat them like human beings. Your BIL is immature and needs to grow up. {{ hugs }}


----------



## Jenifer76 (Apr 20, 2005)

((hug))

I don't have any good advice that hasn't already been given.


----------



## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *proudmamanow* 
thanks for bringing back the thread. I am still sick over the whole thing. But I feel clear that I do not want dd to see them again (unless there is concrete evidence of change & recognition of their behaviour & it roots....which is a lot to ask for!). The implications of this are hard though. MIL would be heartbroken if we did this, even though the reality is we don't see them very often, and see her much much more often.

I still haven't talked to dd but plan to do so soon as I really feel this is important.


I know this is hard. And I'm sure MIL is going to take it badly, but maybe you could explain it to her this way...no one would have any issues at all about you ceasing contacting with BIL if he were physically abusing or beating your DD. While he may not be hitting her, he is doing the same type of action, only with words and attitude instead of fists. The scars from this type of abuse often last a lifetime, especially when no action is taken to stop it. If MIL wants a big happy family, then she needs to address the source of the problem (BIL) and not hold the victims of it responsible.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the support. I think dp & I may want to talk to someone else (maybe from our faith community etc.) to get some outside perspective & support. This is really, really bothering me & upsetting me 4 days later & dp, understandably, finds it hard to listen to me talk about it.


----------



## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

As someone who has lots of entire family in-law issues myself I think it is a great idea to talk with someone. I'm also going to second a previous poster who said that you and your dc can cut off contact but that doesn't mean that your dp has to nor that it needs to be a big dramatic announcement. This is your dp's family and while they are not behaving in the way you want them to (ie loving, warm, accepting which are perfectly normal and healthy things to want a family to function as) that does not mean that your dp doesn't have unconditional love (not necessarily approval for the actions!) for them or that she shouldn't be in contact with them. Being dramatic and announcing you will not be part of dp's family does not build up your own family. Instead you deomnstrate to your perseptive children that love is conditional. That if they act poorly or have beliefs you do not agree with that love will be withdrawn from them. I think it is just fine to not see inlaws. You have a responsibility to do what is right for your children. But these are not relationships where you see these people on a daily/weekly basis. 7 months is a long time, especially to a child, you won't be radically changing anyone's life by not seeing them for a year or two. Maybe in that time with dp maintaining the relationship and sharing her point of view and expectations there will be room for getting together.
Perhaps you and she could write some emails about your experiences and sadness to bil/sil. By stating your experiences but acknowledging their beliefs and asking how you can all peacefully and lovingly coexist may help open their eyes.

Lots of families have inlaw issues for a variety of reasons. I am confident your family can find a way to protect your dc and allow your partner to have contact with her family. Tolerance and acceptance is a two way street that *most* families have to negotiate in big and small ways at almost every holiday/get together/phone call.

Take care,

Jenne


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Thanks for your perspective, Jenne. I find it really helpful. I really, really value family, and my role has normally been to support dp in building up her relationship with her family. MIL & I in particular have built up a good relationship over the years, that I feel can be restored. That said, I don't think it's okay to continue contact until we have evidence that they are understand the issues & are willing to change. Which is work that dp is going to have to do with BIL. I do think though that no matter what happens, we will be keeping visits short & not staying at the same place as them. They live near lots of other family & friends, so it would be easy to stay elsewhere & visit them briefly, in a public location. My priority number one is protecting my girls. But I do see that it might, just might be possible to negotiate something with them in the future. The irony is that in the past (prior to July) we were the ones who were pushing for a closer relationship...they always seemed content to see us or not see us and left us in charge of inviting them etc. So letting things slide could be quite easy without any dramatic announcements, as you say.


----------



## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

I agree with this.



SunshineJ said:


> I'm afraid I'd have to say goodbye to any relationship with these people. They obviously are not a healthy couple for your children to be around! I would just explain to dd that her aunt and uncle are mad at you and dp because they don't like that she has 2 mommies, and sadly they took it out on her which wasn't very nice. Simple, to the point and accurate.


----------



## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

So sorry your girls have had to witness this horrible behaviour. That would absolutely break my heart.

I agree that disowning them publicly is not helpful but I also think that perhaps a letter is in order reminding them that they're dealing with a CHILD and that whatever their personal beliefs may be that children are sacred and should be treated with love and respect.

I understand why your partner is uncomfortable with the topic, but I do feel that the offending parties need to understand that the way they've behaved toward DD1 is unacceptable.

We're working on this for our ILs too, who over the holidays decided that our three year old is out of control and that their house would be come a "no-touching" obstacle course. They have dogs and ask that we're understanding of them, but refuse to understand the developmental realities of a preschooler. ARGH.

I really hope you find some satisfaction in all of this, and that your DD feels loved as she DESERVES to feel.


----------



## Chryseis (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne* 
As someone who has lots of entire family in-law issues myself I think it is a great idea to talk with someone. I'm also going to second a previous poster who said that you and your dc can cut off contact but that doesn't mean that your dp has to nor that it needs to be a big dramatic announcement. This is your dp's family and while they are not behaving in the way you want them to (ie loving, warm, accepting which are perfectly normal and healthy things to want a family to function as) that does not mean that your dp doesn't have unconditional love (not necessarily approval for the actions!) for them or that she shouldn't be in contact with them. Being dramatic and announcing you will not be part of dp's family does not build up your own family. Instead you deomnstrate to your perseptive children that love is conditional. That if they act poorly or have beliefs you do not agree with that love will be withdrawn from them. I think it is just fine to not see inlaws. You have a responsibility to do what is right for your children. But these are not relationships where you see these people on a daily/weekly basis. 7 months is a long time, especially to a child, you won't be radically changing anyone's life by not seeing them for a year or two. Maybe in that time with dp maintaining the relationship and sharing her point of view and expectations there will be room for getting together.
Perhaps you and she could write some emails about your experiences and sadness to bil/sil. By stating your experiences but acknowledging their beliefs and asking how you can all peacefully and lovingly coexist may help open their eyes.

This is fantastic advice. There's definitely no need for a major announcement, and your partner can still have a relationship with her family. It also leaves the door open for future communication between all of you.

As for your daughter, she absolutely does not need to be around them. She's old enough to understand their rejection and to know that they don't care for her and that's just too hurtful for anybody.

I had a very similar situation, but I was much older when it happened. My stepfather's brother, his wife and his mother just don't like me. They decided to not like me from the first time they meet me when I was 14 years old. I was treated very coldly at their houses, often ignored and very often badmouthed. The last time I saw my "uncle" he refused to even speak or look at me for a whole weekend. It was decided at that time that there was just no reason for me to be involved with that part of the "family." My parents were still involved as much as they wanted to be, which frankly, wasn't all that much because of everything. Not seeing them anymore was an amazing relief.

I was a relatively confident teenager when this happened and completely understood that it really had nothing to do with me personally, that it was more their problem. I understood all the reasons they didn't like me (it boils down to them thinking I was a snob, you know, 'cause I liked books and did well in school--all of those "bad" things), but it was still very painful. To this day it still bothers me every so often, and it still smarts a little bit. I absolutely can't imagine being rejected in this way by "family" at a younger age. It's not a healthy situation and it can have a really long-term impact.


----------



## Swan3 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *proudmamanow* 
Thanks for your perspective, Jenne. I find it really helpful. I really, really value family, and my role has normally been to support dp in building up her relationship with her family. MIL & I in particular have built up a good relationship over the years, that I feel can be restored.

Just thinking on this and I wonder if it would be useful to talk to your MIL and tell her how this is affecting your DD and maybe get her support for the next visit?


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

First of all - {{hugs}} for having to live through such a situation. UGH. And bravo to you for not tolerating it.

Two, part of the challenge your family may have is that BIL/SIL may have no concept that their behavior is unusual or needs changing - afterall, if they knew they were misbehaving, one would presume they would correct it or address it. And you, the offended party, won't be able to raise it because they will most likely dismiss your complaints out of hand.

They clearly have deep homophobia (justified in their minds, perhaps, by their religion, but since I have known many deeply religious people who do not support homosexual relationships but who also would NEVER take it out on a child, I suspect the behavior is based on more run of the mill homophobia combined with disrespect for children).

People who treat children this way - who let their own issues and prejudices affect their interactions with children - I find really hard to deal with, period. For me, it a core religious and ethical belief that children be treated with respect and dignity, regardless of any other factors. It should not matter to him that your daughter is not (in his mind) his "real niece" or that he doesn't approve of your relationship. He needs to treat her as a person deserving of respect and dignity.

This may not be something they can fix, and if so, keep your daughter away as much as possible and/or teach her that this is HIS baggage, not hers. The pps had great advice on how to do this.

ON the other hand, if BIL has the quality of introspection, if someone like your MIL points it out to him, he may learn to treat your children with respect, even if he has deep issues with his sister's relationship/"lifestyle". I wouldn't hold my breath, but people do change sometimes.

I think your plan to limit exposure is a very good one. In addition to limitation of times, I would add dilution; make sure the times you are with them, other positive family members or friends are there. Many people behave their best if they have an audience, and you get "credit" for seeing them even if you in fact only spent 2 minutes saying hello and the rest of the time talking with more positive people.

Again, more power to you for addressing this issue now when your daughters are so young. They will learn so much from you and your partner fighting for them, AND trying to support their right to (healthy) extended family. Good luck.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Why would your dp want a relationship with people that treat her partner and children like that? Her priority should be you and your children, that's who comes first. If dh put his family of origin who treated me and my kids like crap over me and my kids, there would be some serious problems.


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne* 
Being dramatic and announcing you will not be part of dp's family does not build up your own family. Instead you deomnstrate to your perseptive children that love is conditional. That if they act poorly or have beliefs you do not agree with that love will be withdrawn from them.

I see it as the perceptive children seeing that the parents take them being mistreated seriously, and will do what it takes to protect them from bullies.


----------



## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 
I see it as the perceptive children seeing that the parents take them being mistreated seriously, and will do what it takes to protect them from bullies.









I think there's a very very big difference between loving conditionally and not tolerating abuse.


----------



## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

ugh I feel for you on the adults who allow a child that small to "offend" them. My mom says this about my just-turned-3 year old DD. And to add to that she LIVES WITH US. I think DD acts out toward her because she senses, like I do, that the boys are "favored".
The ironic part of it is that they are also close--DD slept with Grandma from shortly after the baby was born (after sleeping in her own bed a few weeks, transitioned out of ours) until a couple months ago. Her choice. She still will occasionally go into my mom at night. This is something that's only them, VERY occasionally DS1 will sneak in there.

but my mom will get resentful and refuse to speak to dd and stuff because she'll do something like call her "stupid"--my mom claims this is only to her, despite the fact she has witnessed and commented on her saying the SAME THING to me. It happened exactly ONCE though because I called her on it and laid it out that she is BARELY THREE and she is EXPERIMENTING--she wants to know what will happen if she says this. If you give it attention and power, well, then she's found her way to get attention and power! Which is what she wants.

We are working on our issues. (we have to, economics and well, a healthy dose of guilt on my part on the thought of my mom being utterly alone without us.)

if I were in your situation though I'd quit being around them. Who needs people who are that hostile to her and to you??


----------



## Musubi (Feb 12, 2007)

So sorry you're going through this!!

I also have a female DP and we have two DDs that DP carried. Her family is fantastic with us and we lived near them up until this past summer. We've since moved to be close to my family. My mother adores our girls, but I wondered how it would be with us all being in her space and her having to be more "out" about us. I decided before we moved that if it became evident that she couldn't be an out and proud grandma, then we'd have to move back to Colorado.

Although it's not the same as your situation, I just knew that I wouldn't be able to handle it if my girls weren't completely and wholly accepted. I'm sure at times my mom is awkward when introducing me and DP, but I think she needs to feel that way sometimes. lol









Good luck and much hugs to you and your family.


----------



## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

You know, one of the things I love about this place is that we can all have different perspectives that come from our different experiences and that when people ask for opinions/assistance they have such a wide range of view points!

I offer my viewpoint which comes from my experiences. My experience (unfortunately!) is that dh's family detests me. They are (sometimes) civil but for the most part just ignore. Does dh wish things were different? Absolutely! Do I refuse to spend excess time with them? Absolutely! But dh having a relationship with them that is removed from his relationship with me works for us. It doesn't take anything away from our relationship. He is free to be a good son without also having to be a good husband. I am confident of our relationship and so can be free to allow this. He and I had an earnest discussion of our options. We felt that they were this 1) I put up and shut up and so does he. 2) He tells them they are being inappropriate and that he is disappointed and continues to have a relationship with them that is by and large without me. (We don't have children yet but the plan will be that they are never alone with any of my in-laws and will have minimal contact unless there is some change in the way I am treated. We haven't announced this to them, it is just our plan.) 3) He severs his relationship with them and honors "our" family. For us, obviously, choice 2 seemed the most reasonable and the best way to potentially fix things so that there could be some sort of extended family in the future. Does it totally suck? Absolutely. But he and I both feel that with time there is a chance that things can improve. Are there certain things I would absolutely say, "Nope. Them or me." Absolutely--physical, sexual, alcohol, or drug abuse--he would have to choose. If my in-laws were overtly tampering with our relationship (ie frequent phone calls/emails/texts) or frequently disparaging me that would also be cause for my action on my part. Simply pretending that they don't exist on my planet works for us.

As for the message that actions send I was stating how I might have perceived it given that situation. I typed up several paragraphs about an experience I had as an adolescent involving myself, my parents, and extended family but that isn't really germaine other than it colors my impression that cutting off contact sends the message that love is conditional upon one's behavior.

Proudmamanow I hope you and your dp are able to come to a solution that works for your family. I wish you the best in navigating what surely is one of the most complex set of relationships human beings can have--family!









Jenne


----------



## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

It occurs to me that I think very, very differently about a relative being hostile to my partner and a relative being hostile to my child who is not my biokid, while simultaneously being loving to my child who IS my biokid.

The former, eh. Sometimes adults don't click, and while I might not seek out opportunities to get together with that relative I probably wouldn't get too upset.

The latter? I don't think I could even be near that relative without diving for their throat. Questioning the "real" status of a mom/kid relationship, even indirectly, is throwing down the gauntlet in the biggest possible way, and it's just terrible for the kid to have to endure.

OP, maybe it's better to keep the focus on that aspect? "Honey, your brother doesn't seem to believe that dd1 is really your daughter, really his niece. That is just too twisted and toxic a viewpoint for the kids to be around. Visit him if you want, but we're staying home."


----------



## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenne* 
You know, one of the things I love about this place is that we can all have different perspectives that come from our different experiences and that when people ask for opinions/assistance they have such a wide range of view points!

I offer my viewpoint which comes from my experiences. My experience (unfortunately!) is that dh's family detests me. They are (sometimes) civil but for the most part just ignore. Does dh wish things were different? Absolutely! Do I refuse to spend excess time with them? Absolutely! But dh having a relationship with them that is removed from his relationship with me works for us. It doesn't take anything away from our relationship. He is free to be a good son without also having to be a good husband. I am confident of our relationship and so can be free to allow this. He and I had an earnest discussion of our options. We felt that they were this 1) I put up and shut up and so does he. 2) He tells them they are being inappropriate and that he is disappointed and continues to have a relationship with them that is by and large without me. (We don't have children yet but the plan will be that they are never alone with any of my in-laws and will have minimal contact unless there is some change in the way I am treated. We haven't announced this to them, it is just our plan.) 3) He severs his relationship with them and honors "our" family. For us, obviously, choice 2 seemed the most reasonable and the best way to potentially fix things so that there could be some sort of extended family in the future. Does it totally suck? Absolutely. But he and I both feel that with time there is a chance that things can improve. Are there certain things I would absolutely say, "Nope. Them or me." Absolutely--physical, sexual, alcohol, or drug abuse--he would have to choose. If my in-laws were overtly tampering with our relationship (ie frequent phone calls/emails/texts) or frequently disparaging me that would also be cause for my action on my part. Simply pretending that they don't exist on my planet works for us.

As for the message that actions send I was stating how I might have perceived it given that situation. I typed up several paragraphs about an experience I had as an adolescent involving myself, my parents, and extended family but that isn't really germaine other than it colors my impression that cutting off contact sends the message that love is conditional upon one's behavior.

Proudmamanow I hope you and your dp are able to come to a solution that works for your family. I wish you the best in navigating what surely is one of the most complex set of relationships human beings can have--family!









Jenne


And dh and I (well, dh) came to the total opposite conclusion when his side continued to be nasty to me (not his parents, they are awesome, but a sibling and sib's family that live locally).


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't know how I'd react if my in-laws were hostile towards _me_ (aside from a single drunken rant about not ruining his son's life from my ex-FIL, I've never had a problem with any of my in-laws). However, that's not what's happening in the OP. If dh's family treated ds1 (not dh's child...but I'll point out that the OP's dd isn't even "just" a stepchild) the way the OP's BIL treated her dd, all hell would break loose. I don't like the homophobia, but I despise the fact that they're taking it out on a child who can't defend herself. If my brother or sister ever treated one of my children that way, I can't even imagine _wanting_ to maintain my relationship with them. I accept that adults have their issues with each other. I have no respect (or sympathy) for people who choose to take those issues out on children.

I totally agree with what siobhang said here:

Quote:

People who treat children this way - who let their own issues and prejudices affect their interactions with children - I find really hard to deal with, period. For me, it a core religious and ethical belief that children be treated with respect and dignity, regardless of any other factors. It should not matter to him that your daughter is not (in his mind) his "real niece" or that he doesn't approve of your relationship. He needs to treat her as a person deserving of respect and dignity.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swan3* 
Just thinking on this and I wonder if it would be useful to talk to your MIL and tell her how this is affecting your DD and maybe get her support for the next visit?

Hi Swan,
We did try to engage her prior to this visit & tbh, I think that might be part of the problem. I think she was so anxious that things 'go well' that she displaced her anxiety onto dd1, who was just acting like a normal 4yo, and tried to make her into a 'stepford kid' for lack of a better word. So engaging MIL doesn't seem to have worked thus far.

We will be making it clear that unless BIL owns up to his behaviour & changes it, I will not be taking our dds to visit him again. MIL may need to be made aware of this if this affects future holiday plans, or she may not. We'll see. We often see them separately in any case. For the moment, I do not plan for dd to see him again unless I can see evidence of a change in behaviour & an acknowledgement of past wrongs.

One of the things that has proven tricky in the past is that whenever dp has expressed views to BIL about their interaction with our family, SIL has then come after dp to tell her to leave BIL alone as she is upsetting him. Sigh. Such a treat to deal with them!

I hear loud & clear everyone here saying to cut them off. The thing is, I have had experiences of family members being cut off in my own extended family & it had poisonously negative implications for decades....so I'm committed to trying to work this out a bit longer via the adults....but I'm also committed to protecting dd from them.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Just an update on this whole sordid situation. Dd1 turned 5 today







calls and cards poured in from family & friends with one big fat exception. Total and utter silence from BIL , SIL & family. This after they called the night before Dd2's birthday, 3 weeks ago, to say they were wrapping her gifts to send, were so excited for her & then called again the day of her 2nd birthday to wish her a happy birthday. We have heard NOTHING from them....they have usually called on her birthday previously, heck they've even called on my birthday sometimes. We didn't say anything to dd1 of course, but it literally makes me feel nauseous. I mean who does this? They only have 2 neices...that's it......I have no words really.

Our last visit with MIL was unpleasant. She clearly loves dd, but also clearly thinks she is a mean, nasty girl, as she expressed great surprise at her ability to play nicely with her friends, which is something she has excelled at for more than a year. She also expressed surprise at her listening ability in dance class, which should not be the slightest surprise to anyone who knows her, she does very well in group settings. So clearly she has picked up on BIL's perspective. Dp called her on this in a very gentle way and got an extremely defensive responsive.

I'm so sad for my little girl. And still lost as to what to do. We have explained on various occasions to dd that their behaviour is not her fault. And we have no plans to see BIL and family, though at some point that may come up....sigh.


----------



## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Don't be sad for your DD, she sounds fine. Just cut these toxic people out of your family life. If openly cutting them off is too much for you, just be too busy. And with the calling and gifts to DD2 just say "No thank you. It's not fair and that favoritism is not good for either girl." It's just as bad for your DD that they do like. I wouldn't accept their calls or packages. If a person can't be positive around both of your children you are better off without them. Just tell your DDs that these are rude people so you won't be seeing them anymore, that some people are just rude.


----------



## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

thanks ssh, yes so far we have managed to just be too busy whenever it's come up. Not hearing from them on dd's birthday helps affirm that decision, that's for sure. But it is still an uncomfortable, awkward situation.


----------

