# PLEASE HELP!!! DH started spanking!!



## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

We are in dire need of help. DH says he is going to start spanking DS (4.5) because "this GD thing isn't working". He says he has been trying it my way for almost five years and it obviously isn't working. He thinks DS is growing up to be a horrible kid and he thinks spanking will teach him limitations.

We discussed it for an hour yesterday, with me bringing up all the old arguments. DH just rolled his eyes through the whole the thing. Then last night he spanked DS in front of us. He lost his temper and spanked DS. When it was all said and done, DH apologised to me but not to DS. He thinks DS brought it upon himself by acting out.

We agreed before we got married that we would not spank our kids. And now DH is renegging on that agreement and I am so angry at him.

I know DH is fed up. Heck I am fed up with DS. He's the challenging sort of kid and a lot of the time I think everything we do is failing. I am tired of his insane temper tantrums. TIred of him yelling and hitting and kicking and talking mean. His bad attitude. He hates everything. He refuses to help with anything. I would be lying if I said I didn't dream about spanking him sometimes.

But I don't. I take a deep breath and do my best. Sometimes I yell or raise my voice but I don't spank him.

I don't know what to do now. Keep DH away from DS? How can I get DH to listen? How can I try to help DS's behavior so DH doesn't want to spank? Why is it up to me? Aren't we supposed to be partners? I am so so so so angry at DH right now


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## ryansmom02 (Jan 8, 2003)

Kate I am in the same boart right now.,..DS is such a challenge and DH thinks that a spanking will stop what he does..... BUt Ryan has issues so he is not totally in control of his actions... But I agree it is frustrating to have DS who does not listen at all....

I will watch this thread as I am in need of the same help...








to us and our DS


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

I wish I had some good suggestions. What a tough situation. I know you said you've already talk with dh about all the reasons not to spank, but maybe if he sees them in black and white it will sink in a little better.

(Even though it would be a little passive aggressive, maybe putting this on the fridge will help remind him, without you having to endure intense discussions about it?)

http://www.preventchildabusenj.org/d...hildjuly28.pdf

I don't think it would be a good idea to keep try dh away from ds. That could harm their relationship even further.

Does your dh participate in these boards? Could you show him this thread?


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Hugs!!!!!

I can sympathize, DD is tough and I often dream about giving DD a good whack too - but like you, would never do it.

Not that you should ever spank, but even those individuals that beleive that spanking is a good discipline tool will tell you that you should never spank when you are angry. You said that your DH lost his temper and spanked - that is such a dangerous situation. Could you start the conversation there with DH?


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

I agree, spanking is not the answer. Nor is yelling or using certain words. But you do have to set boundaries and be a parent. A child can not turn into a brat and ruin your marriage. That will hurt the child more than anything.

I will pm you because my views may not be all that popular...


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## thistle (Aug 10, 2002)

((HUGS)) This has to be a difficult situation for you.

Maybe start another thread to address your DS behavior as well (if you haven't already). As you know there are lots of wise women here who have BTDT. Perhaps if you had alternative approaches your DH would be willing to try something else.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

That is a tough situation. I don't know anything about your life or how you have parented your ds, other than you use gd. Which, I use in my own home as well. But, there is a huge range as far as gd is concerned. Other than knowing you will not spank, I don't know how structured you are, how many limits you set, how you respond (or not) to tantrums, etc.

Every kid is different and some kids need more structure and more limits. My older ds did not need me hugging him through tantrums, like many people on here recommend and practice themselves. The more I tried to intervene, the longer his tantrum lasted and the worse it got. I ignored his tantrums and they went away. So, that is just my take on that one thing. Obviously, like I said, I don't know how you handle this situation in your own home.

And, how are you with having a flow to your day? I really believe that kids need to know basically what is going to happen throughout the day. So, meals should be served at roughly the same times everyday, bedtime and bathtime should be at the same time, etc. Maybe you are structured with this stuff already, but, if not, I would start there. Kids DO behave better when they know what to expect.

I also swear by telling my sons ahead of time how I expect them to behave in any given situation. Like, if we are going to a friends house, a problem for us has been resistance when it is time to leave. So, I go over how I expect them to behave when it is time to leave. And, it works. I think that sometimes kids don't know how to act in a given situation and they need a blueprint to help point them in the right direction.

Also, I really believe that kids need lots of outlet for their energy. Have lots of hands-on creative activities. I have a friend who never, ever lets her 3 year old play with play-doh or paint because it is too messy. I totally disagree with that. Moms need to get over that issue! Let the house and the kids get messy. It is good for the kids and gives them an outlet. Also, lots and lots of outdoor time.

Like I said, I have no idea if any of these things are an issue for you. They are part of my overall gd plan. It's not perfect, but usually keeps things from being too crazy. I know that if things get off track here with behavior, I need to revisit some of these things myself and we usually get back on track.

As far as your dh goes, make sure he has alternatives to use instead of spanking. I don't know how you feel about time-outs, but in my opinion, sometimes a time-out is needed (for both the parent and the child). And, if you can teach him to do that instead of spanking, it is certainly a better alternative.

Good luck!


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## thorn (Dec 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *addiesmom*
Not that you should ever spank, but even those individuals that beleive that spanking is a good discipline tool will tell you that you should never spank when you are angry. You said that your DH lost his temper and spanked - that is such a dangerous situation. Could you start the conversation there with DH?

I think this would be a good starting point. If your DH feels like he is going to spank your DS, tell him NOT to do it angry. If he waits a few hours he may realize that a spanking is not the right answer.

I am so sorry. I don't know what I would do in your shoes!


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Wow. I am so sorry. I have no advice for you, but I wanted to send you support. I can only imagine the turmoil you must be feeling. I hope that you and your dh can come to a gentle solution.


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## Gitti (Dec 20, 2003)

IMO this poster has addressed a lot of what could be the problem And yes, GD is a matter of interpretation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
... But, there is a huge range as far as gd is concerned. Other than knowing you will not spank,...

My older ds did not need me hugging him through tantrums...

To be truthful, I don't believe in hugging through tantrums at all. It takes away from the child being able to express itself.

Quote:

The more I tried to intervene, the longer his tantrum lasted and the worse it got.
Same in our house.

Quote:

I ignored his tantrums and they went away.
I agree.

Quote:

kids need to know basically what is going to happen throughout the day. So, meals should be served at roughly the same times everyday, bedtime and bathtime should be at the same time, etc. ...kids DO behave better when they know what to expect.
Again, I agree.

Quote:

I also swear by telling my sons ahead of time how I expect them to behave in any given situation. Like, if we are going to a friends house, a problem for us has been resistance when it is time to leave. So, I go over how I expect them to behave when it is time to leave. And, it works. I think that sometimes kids don't know how to act in a given situation and they need a blueprint to help point them in the right direction.
I agree!

Quote:

Also, I really believe that kids need lots of outlet for their energy. Have lots of hands-on creative activities. I have a friend who never, ever lets her 3 year old play with play-doh or paint because it is too messy. I totally disagree with that. Moms need to get over that issue! Let the house and the kids get messy. It is good for the kids and gives them an outlet. Also, lots and lots of outdoor time.
I agree!

Quote:

They are part of my overall gd plan. It's not perfect, but usually keeps things from being too crazy. I know that if things get off track here with behavior, I need to revisit some of these things myself and we usually get back on track.










Quote:

As far as your dh goes, make sure he has alternatives to use instead of spanking.
Right!

Quote:

but in my opinion, sometimes a time-out is needed (for both the parent and the child). And, if you can teach him to do that instead of spanking, it is certainly a better alternative.

The only problem with time-out, the child has to be raised a certain way already otherwise they just won't accept time-out. I've seen where parents had to sit and hold the child for their time-out. And that in my opinion is ridiculous.

Twocoolboys, I guess we pretty much agree on how to handle certain situations. And guess what, I always called my kids "cool kids". All three of them were truly 'cool kids' and now I have three 'cool grandsons'.

My three kids happened to be at the same party once when they were teens (they are very close in age) and one by one they came home not telling me why till the last one was home. Why? There were drugs at the party. Now that was 'cool'.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I am a reformed spanker and wanted to offer support.

Sigh. I dont know what to offer except that I set very firm limits and boundaries with consequences and that helped alot. And once I said something that was that. No means no. Pick your battles.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gitti*

My three kids happened to be at the same party once when they were teens (they are very close in age) and one by one they came home not telling me why till the last one was home. Why? There were drugs at the party. Now that was 'cool'.









That IS cool!!! I hope my boys will be that cool when they are teens too!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Has he read Anthony Wolf? Would he read "The Secret of Parenting?"


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

He won't read but I might have to start printing things up for him to read. It has always been I read and then tell him what I read.

He has never areed with a lot of the GD things we practice and he loses his temper alot. We aren't perfect, I lose my temper sometimes too. We just express it differently.

I have told him to never spank when angry and he rolls his eyes at me. I asked him what seperates spanking from smacking our son across the face or giving him a bloody nose. At what point do you draw the line? What is acceptable and what isn't? Would he just go and spank DS when he is calm and collected?

And you are right I should have told you how we (or I) practice GD.

DS has HUGE temper tantrums. WE do not hold. Tried it and it freaks him out to the point of foaming at the mouth. We do room time during his TT, he needs the privacy.

He is very scheduled. DD isn't, she can roll with the punches but DS HAS to be or everyone is miserable. I don't have down time with him, we keep him as busy as we can.

Basically Twocoolboys, I do everything you do. We do no TV (makes DS worse) as much as possible, no processed dyed foods, no refined sugar. I have posted on this board a few times asking for help with DS. We do everything right it seems and not much gets better.

It is when Hunter has his temper tantrums or "talks back" that infuriates DH. He says we let DS walk all over us.

But we don't. We are not permissive, we don't let him "get away with it". We are very clear in our expectations.

My mom (who is very GD now, not when we were growing up) thinks we may have to get profession help with DS. DH thinks he is out of control. I just think he is a challenging normal spirited and senstive 4-year0old.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

When I was having problems with my temper, I sought counseling for anger management. That was after I tried to hit my boyfriend at the time, who was a foot taller and much heavier. I went to counseling with bruises on my wrists, from the boyfriend holding me back b/c he did not want to be hit.

I would think, if I were losing my temper to the point where I wanted to hit my son, who is 2+ feet shorter and FAR lighter than me, and who canNOT hold me back, that I would seek anger management counseling again.


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

very quietly suggesting that maybe the first thing to address is your relationship with your partner. Maybe a little counseling to get everyone on the same page? If your ds is pulling that much energy in the house, it is only natural that your relationship would show the strain. After you two are working together again, maybe a way will show itself.


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

I can see you've already put a lot of thought into gd in your house! It is hard to offer advice without actually seeing and interacting with your ds. Honestly, I have two boys, and I really truly believe that they are so different than girls. Have you done any reading on boys spefically and their needs and how they differ from girls? I can't think of any specific books right now, but I know they are out there. Maybe do a google search. Or maybe some of the other mamas on here will have some suggestions. Our local pbs station had an excellent program on a couple of months ago about raising boys.

Basically, in our society and in our schools, many people expect the "perfect" kids behavior to be that of a little girls. Calm, will sit still for activities, will not be aggressive, etc. I know that this can be an unpopular opinion. Anytime I have tried to talk about this subject with my sister, who has two little girls, I get the "my girls are active too" line of thinking. And, I know they are, but boys are just MORE so.

So, I believe that parents of little boys need to change their expectations. Expect more active play, expect more aggression and work to channel it into something positive. Sports, lots of physical play - wrestling with dad, etc. A great book for tips on this is Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen. It is an awesome book.

All that said, if this is stuff that you have already considered and you really feel you have turned over every stone and are doing everything that you can think of to help your ds and your whole family, then maybe you could benefit from some professional help. I think he sounds like a typical, spirited 4 year old boy, but, like I said, that is hard to say for sure without actually seeing him in action.

My last question to you is, have you spent much time playing with other 4 year old boys? Getting a feel for how other boys are acting could really help both you and your dh get some perspective.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Honestly, I'd say immediate and serious family counselling was necessary, and a temporary separation until people are not being hit in the midst of bad tempers. If your DH rolls his eyes at your child care thoughts and has lost all respect for your approach to things, I don't believe that there is anything that YOU can do alone to work things out between the TWO of you, it sounds like things are messed up there in regards to your DS and he could really suffer as a result of it, even more so than from spankings alone. I almost feel like your DH isn't just angry at DS when he's spanking your son, but angry with you as well, and this needs to be addressed. It sounds like a really out of control situation that is getting much worse, and chaos is not a good place to make parenting discipline decisions in, plus it sounds like your DH really just thinks whatever you say is wrong, at this point. I'm very sorry things have gotten so bad, I do agree with your Mom that DS needs some outside help, but so do you and DH, if a loving, cohesive family is the goal.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I too would just like to jump in on the counseling idea. I would find a family counselor who is GD. If DS is driving you nuts, driving DH nuts and now you and DH are at each other, it sounds like it is time to find someone who can help you meet your family's goals.

I wish you luck. GD has not failed you; you just need someone to help you guys get on the right foot. We agreed not to spank when we got married too, and if DH backed out of that, the consequences would be severe.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I agree with the need to seek counseling - this is an issue that you simply can not back down on or you will regret it. This must be so tough for you, I really hope it works out.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Just curious before I respond -- what was your ds's response to being spanked? Did his acting out come to a stop? If so, for how long? What did he have to say about it? Did he express or share any strong feelings? Did you have a conversation about it afterwards? With DH in the room? Or not in the room? Has DH used spanking as a threat since then?


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

We have recently started having insane TT's to the point that dd2 will give herself a headache from screaming so much. It stinks but I have to just let her go, if I intervene it only gets worse.

Sometimes I have to walk away. I start to feel the rage bubble and I have to walk away. Suggest to dh that if it gets to be too much, just walk away.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Lots of people have recommended a book to me so I shall pass the info on to you. (I just bought the book yesterday and haven't read it yet).

It's called: _Secret to Parenting_... try getting it from the library or your local bookstore.

Best of luck to you.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

"The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf...excellent book, but useless to a DH who refuses to read it and has stopped taking momma seriously.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Last edited by faithnj : Today at 04:12 PM.


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## addiesmom (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Have you done any reading on boys spefically and their needs and how they differ from girls? I can't think of any specific books right now, but I know they are out there. Maybe do a google search. Or maybe some of the other mamas on here will have some suggestions. Our local pbs station had an excellent program on a couple of months ago about raising boys.

The PBS program was called 'Raising Cain, Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys' and was based on the book of the same name written by two PhDs - Kindlon and Thompson. Great book, not too much advice on _specific_ parenting for the age-range we are talking about, but still an insight on how different the two sexes can be.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter-20"*
excellent book, but useless to a DH who refuses to read it and has stopped taking momma seriously.

Yes, but it may be a good read for Kate for her own benefit. Then, either in counseling or another time when dh will listen, she can bring up some new ideas.

I only say that because my son's father will not listen to ANYTHING that I have to say BUT, if it's in a book, he is more apt to listen. Odd but true.

Just trying to help.








It's so sad that you are going through this. With all the wonderful things that you have done, you should have some wonderful karma coming your way!
My ds has massive tantrums too (he has PDD and sensory issues) and it gets very trying.

Wishing the best for you!
Liz


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Spatulagirl, there are many ways to help your husband and your son to both get their underlying needs met without physical violence. Setting the expectation that *no one will hit anyone in your home* under any circumstances what-so-ever is the first step, imo. I believe it is your responsibility to protect your 40 pound child from a 150+ pound man, even if it is his father hitting him (out of anger at that).

Your family needs help with anger management. Part of that comes from self-awareness and self-control and learning more effective conflict resolution skills. And part of it comes from taking a stand against violence. I understand that your husband was angry and he is responsible for his reactions. Just as your son is. But for him to embrace and advocate using violence will only beget more violence, imo. Helping your son to learn different tools of conflict resolution will only occur if they are modelled by people that he respects. Fearing someone and respecting them are very different issues.

First I would get some Bach flower remedies. I will try to find the link. But off the top, I recommend Cherry Plum for out of control anger, and Elm for feeling overwhelmed for dh. And some Cherry Plum for ds when he is melting down. You can select several and add them to a drink to help bring about a calm and more rational state before (or while) losing it. Self-control will only be learned by your son if your husband is able to show him how to control himself! The Bach flower remedies are safe, and will help!

I curse dairy. Our son is aggressive, unable to hear other's needs and boundaries about one hour after dairy consumption. Does dh or ds have any of these tendencies? It is very quantity specific. If ds has just a bit, it is almost not noticable, just antagoniazing. But if he has much, we all suffer.

High fructose corn syrup is another issue that we avoid. And artificial colors, flavors and preservatives. If you are introducing and supplying these products in your son's diet, don't hold him responsible to a higher degree of self-control than he is physically capable of as a result. Same with dh.

The tools of reflective listening such as in the book "How to Talk so Kids will Listen" is immeasurably helpful at defusing and validating other's needs. The book has a cartoon format which is easy to get the gist of the ideas. They also have parenting workshops.

I would validate that dh is angry and that he needs peace in his home. But hitting someone to get peace is bullying. And that isn't what he wants ds to learn, I imagine.

HTH, Pat

ETA:
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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I agree with Scubamama about the diet. I swore my middle dd had ADD, until I changed her diet. Her behavior was off the wall. I removed all artificial colors, flavorings and refined sugars from her diet. She is a totally different kid now. She is much easier to live with and doing very well in Kindergarten. I was afraid she'd be diagnosed ADD before we changed her diet. It's definitely worth a try.

Also, my dh doesn't read either. So, he was treated to me reading the Secret of Parenting to him on a car trip. How did your dh feel after spanking your child? Mine swatted one of ours lightly on the butt once and felt awful after. He never did it again. He was just very upset with her sticking her tongue out at him and "lost it" for a minute. Of course, I told him never to touch her again, so I'm sure that helped.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I agree that there are issues here beyond spanking and that you and DH could probably use some help aside from parenting. Beyond that, could you get DH to agree to a parenting class together? I swear this was the best thing DH and I did, just as we became parents. Of course, you would carefully research what sort of advise was going to be given before you signed up! This gave us a set of theoretical situations to discuss, much less emotional than talking about your own situation. And a "code" of sorts that we could use to call each other back from the edge.

Could you and DH agree on a discipline plan that didn't include spanking but maybe wasn't ideally GD either? Sometimes I think we have to do the best we can given all circumstances, even if its not ideal. With our family, DH just couldn't swallow all of the GD ideals and so we used timeouts with our son. Very selectively, very consistantly, and carefully. But it met my DH's intense need to "do something" when DS was hitting me, for example, but at least "something" wasn't hitting. I know this isn't the perfect answer, but maybe a good intermediate step while working on other issues? At least it would be better than starting a pattern of hitting.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

There is an audio, CD version of the "How to Talk so Kids will Listen" book. We borrowed it from our library and dh listened to it with me in the car. Ostensibly, *I* wanted to listen, but he couldn't help himself. ;-) It is very, very approachable and helped our family to have a more cooperative dynamic in our home.

And it looks like it costs about $10 to order:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...lance&n=283155

Pat


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizc*
I only say that because my son's father will not listen to ANYTHING that I have to say BUT, if it's in a book, he is more apt to listen. Odd but true.

I don't thknk this is odd at all. My dh is the same way. I am looking for more books for him to read. He is currently going through Siblings w/o Rivelry. He won't really read the books, but he always askes me "is that what the book says to do? is that normal?"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds like backtalk is a trigger for your dh. I would do some research on backtalk and share it with him. 4-year-olds have really good language skills so they sound like little adults to us, but they are still young children and don't understand they are talking in a way that will set us off the way adults would if they talked that way. 4-year-olds just plain talk back. If you don't respond to the backtalk - don't give it power - it should go away.

That's my basic suggestion but more generally, try to identify what your dh's major behavior triggers are and try to get him to understand what is appropriate for a 4-year-old. Backtalk at 4 isn't the same as backtalk at 8.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spatulagirl*
. Then last night he spanked DS in front of us. He lost his temper and spanked DS. When it was all said and done, DH apologised to me but not to DS. He thinks DS brought it upon himself by acting out.

We agreed before we got married that we would not spank our kids. And now DH is renegging on that agreement and I am so angry at him.

I










This would be a major marriage deal breaker for me. We both feel that any kind of violence in our home is unacceptable. Are you looking for advice on how to deal w/ dh or ds or both? I haven't read any of the other poster's responses yet - but counseling is the 1st thing that springs to mind. If your DH is at the point wehre he can "lose his temper and spank" it's a sign that you need some outside objective help with this situation.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I agree with the others that counseling is in order- if your DH won't go with you, then go alone.

As for your son's behavior, have you looked into the Feingold Program? I know you said you avoid dyes and refined sugar, but lots of foods have "hidden" ingredients such as artificial flavors or preservatives that can set some people off. Some people also react to salicylates in certain natural, otherwise wholesome foods, and people can react to chemicals in the environment (such as cleaning supplies, shampoo, etc.) Just cutting out obvious food dyes may not be enough.


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## Mama2 '05'06 (Mar 5, 2006)

I can understand the frustration of seeing a child act out and the parent not have any control over them. But spanking in anger is NEVER the way to go. I grew up in a home where spanking was the norm for any and every offense. Often the spanking was in anger. I was always trying to keep the younger kids out of trouble so they would not be spanked even if that meant doing their chores or whatever. Anyway, I would suggest having ds play with other kids his age. Some young boys (and girls) for that matter like to have physical play- wrestling etc with some one bigger. This can be a good outlet for frustration energy. Ds is old enough to remember what the crime was if dh feels the need to spank later when he is not angry. However, remind dh that kids want attention and will do anything to get it. If dh reacts to ds only when he is having tantrums, ds will continue the tantrums/ misbehavior in order to get that attention even if it is negative. Encourage dh to do some one on one play with ds. Perhaps that will help.


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## gilleoin (Jan 30, 2006)

Quote:

Sometimes I have to walk away. I start to feel the rage bubble and I have to walk away. Suggest to dh that if it gets to be too much, just walk away.
I couldn't agree more.


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

Sorry my son was "helping" me edit my post and deleted it...i just don't have it in me to retype right now...


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

Sorry for the silence ladies. We just moved into a new home and only have our lap top hooked up and the new puppy decided the power cord cables would make a good snack







:









DH hasn't spanked DS again but we haven't had the chance to discuss it much. I have been doing some more reading and arming myself with more information before I go down that road again.

I do think DH needs anger management counselling. I am going to call the insurane company and see if it is covered. We just moved to the States so this whole insurance thing is new to me. I also need to find counsellors. How do you do that? Through the insurance company or phonebook? THen I have to get him to go... ugh.

I have told DH that there will be no more spanking or hitting in the house. We insituted a new rule, if you lose your temper you go outside to cool off. That has been working for DS too. I go out with him and let him scream until he is calm.

I really think DH has unrealistic expectations of what a four year old should do. He also thinks he should know his entire alphabet and be reading and writing by now! We are homeschooling and DH decided to try and teach DS and it ended up with DS in tears and DH yelling. It was horrible.

And yet when I try to talk to DH about it he thinks I am only criticizing him. Sigh...

We had met in the middle and agreed to use timeouts. But now DH feels as though they don't work. He seems to think nothing works but spanking will.

I swear DH was not always like this. He used to be so calm, much more than I was. And he goes on and on about being a pacifist. Really I think he needs friends (male friends) who GD. He is very easily influenced by his friends sometimes. He went through a wanting to spank DS phase before (encouraged by Navy pals that it was the best think for everyone!) and then we met some wonderful people who were uber crunchy and into GD. That really helped.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
Just curious before I respond -- what was your ds's response to being spanked? Did his acting out come to a stop? If so, for how long? What did he have to say about it? Did he express or share any strong feelings? Did you have a conversation about it afterwards? With DH in the room? Or not in the room? Has DH used spanking as a threat since then?

His acting out stopped. It stopped immediately. Which is why DH thinks it works.

DS of course doesn't like it and has told us (and DH) that.

You know, the more I think about this the more upset I get about the way DH handles DS. He is too rough with him. Grabbing, pinching, threatening to spank and yelling. We need counselling.


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

's Kate. I didn't get a chance to read the entire thread. I just wanted to let you know that I think most of us have been in a battle of parenting/partnering wills. Just take one of those deep breaths now and try talking with your dh about what your goals are for you ds. Brainstorm ways to discipline that you both are ok with.

He's not feeling that GD is working and you know spanking is NOT ok with you. How can you compromise for the time being so that you are able to stop fighting long enough to settle in a bit and learn some new and better ways of communicating as a family.

Sorry, its early over here in the West. I hope that made some sense hun.


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

wow, that sounds really tough. my dp is/was a yeller. i got him the alfie kohn dvd (unconditional parenting) because he won't read books, and it's really really really really changed things in our house. he totally gets it now...and we are on the same page. things really help when you are.

anyways, even if you don't try the dvd, i hope things work out for you guys and your dp comes to agree with you. take care.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

What a challenging situation to be in. Upon reading this thread, my initial reaction is that your son's behaviours could be stemming from the way your husband is with him. *Could* be. It's not blame, it's looking at things to understand the root and grow beyond the present circumstances.

If there is resistance on the part of your husband to even initiate the initial stages of therapy or anger management. You may find yourself in a position where you will have to give an ultimatum. I know how harsh that sounds, but he sounds abusive to me, so already the stakes are raised pretty high. He needs help with parenting, that's all there is to it. And the two of you need help communicating effectively. I like a PP's idea of getting "How to Talk..." on tape and playing it within earshot. That may peak his curiosity. But that is only the beginning.

You say he's easily influenced sometimes and a pacifist at heart those can both be really beneficial in turning things around for him. The stress of parenting can be a huge struggle for anyone. It's time to really take stock of your changing, growing family. Gone are the simple days of feeding, diapering and snuggles. Things get a lot more complicated and if he's not equipped with the tools, he'll have a really hard time. There's a got to be a way that you can word it so he will at least *try* going to a profesional for help. It doesn't sound like your son needs to be *fixed*, it sounds like his parents need some tools to strengthen themselves.

I'm hoping for the best for your son. I can imagine what a difficult situation this must be. Hang in there.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

Thank you everyone.

Mamajama very wise kind words. Thank you!

I think I will order him that book on tape. He loves books on tape and drives to DC every day for work so he has time!

He has needed anger counselling in the past but never followed through with it. This time I will see that he will.

Someone PM'd me and reminded me how difficult moving is on a child (we moved from Sicily to MD to WV in the past six months) as well as the parents. I think DH is stressed and Hunter is stressed and it isn't a good combo


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## Camellia (Jun 2, 2004)

I hope everything is going more smoothly for your family. Moving is a very hard thing on a family. Do you think you all will be staying in your current home for a while?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm a little late to the party, but in addition to the good ideas already mentioned, I wanted to add some things.

I agree wholeheartedly that his "problem behavior" sounds to me like it can't possibly be unrelated to, most importantly, your DH's treatment of him and also the transitions.

For me, I go a step beyond instituting a "no violence" policy - I will defend it with my body. I see "spanking" as an actual attack - because it is - and I will stop it however I must. Blocking, inserting myself in front of the hit, anything. Pinching, you say? I'll put my arm right in there to stop it making contact with my child.

It's also a marriage deal-breaker for me. I will not share my life or bed with someone who hurts my child.

I'm so sorry your home is so turbulent right now. Hugs to you and your DC...


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lindsaylou*
I hope everything is going more smoothly for your family. Moving is a very hard thing on a family. Do you think you all will be staying in your current home for a while?

I think so. We bought it and can't afford anything else so... also DH is a civilian now so we don't have to move as part of the job anymore.









I just wanted to update. Things are better. He agreed to parenting counselling and has been making an effort to not lose his temper. He also has been reading some websites I linked him too. I feel better about the direction DH is moving


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

how are things going spatulagirl???


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## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

why would he expect a 4 year old to know his alphabet and read and write already? Alot of kids the end of 1st grade don't quite have reading and writing down fully (my friends little sister made it to 3rd grade without being able to read simple 2-3 letter words super sucky school district..) And thats at age 6-7..


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Basically, in our society and in our schools, many people expect the "perfect" kids behavior to be that of a little girls. Calm, will sit still for activities, will not be aggressive, etc. I know that this can be an unpopular opinion. Anytime I have tried to talk about this subject with my sister, who has two little girls, I get the "my girls are active too" line of thinking. And, I know they are, but boys are just MORE so.

I don't like the idea of good behaviour that runs rampant through our schools. However, it's extremely simplistic to say "girls" behaviour vs. "boys" behaviour.

I have a 13-year-old boy...very active, aggressive, etc. DD puts him in the shade - she's more aggressive, more active, all over the house climbing the furniture, jumping off things, etc., etc. about 16/7 (she does sleep). I think it's probably true that boys are generally more of these things, but dd is "more" than any little boy I've ever known...except one poor little guy whose parents had him wired on more sugar and artifical flavours/colours than I could believe. She's _extremely_ spirited and active, and neither of my boys are even in her league.

And, sorry - that was way OT, but I haven't read any further in the thread yet.


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## ollineeba (Apr 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
Basically, in our society and in our schools, many people expect the "perfect" kids behavior to be that of a little girls. Calm, will sit still for activities, will not be aggressive, etc. I know that this can be an unpopular opinion. Anytime I have tried to talk about this subject with my sister, who has two little girls, I get the "my girls are active too" line of thinking. And, I know they are, but boys are just MORE so.

So, I believe that parents of little boys need to change their expectations. Expect more active play, expect more aggression and work to channel it into something positive. Sports, lots of physical play - wrestling with dad, etc. A great book for tips on this is Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen. It is an awesome book..

I know this wasn't directed at me, but that has been my experience and I totally agree.
Once I started changing my expectations for ds, things have gone much more smoothly and we're all happier.

I do see the comparisons being made at C's preschool- the girls will sit still for the activities (with only an occasional exception) and are following directions. But some of the boys (mine included) are off the wall







C will participate, but he has a limit. He doesn't want to sit and play with clay for 20 minutes, or string beads, or sit and draw a self-portrait - it's just not something he's interested in doing!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I don't like the idea of good behaviour that runs rampant through our schools. However, it's extremely simplistic to say "girls" behaviour vs. "boys" behaviour.

I agree. But I do think it would be completely accurate to say "stereotypical girls' behaviour vs. stereotypical boys' behaviour."


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## Bridge's Mom (Mar 15, 2006)

Wow! If my husband ever laid a hand on our son I would call the cops and report him, divorce him, and it would take a lot for me to hold back my rage. People are not for hitting. We are dealing with this in our family on an emotional and verbal level. We are far from perfect! Our son acts out aggressively because we have been aggressive with each other in our marriage. So before I offer my opinions here please note we are working with aggression, consistency, and setting boundaries for our son. That being said, spanking is punitive, shaming, creates violence, is cruel, and demonstrates your husband's weakness, inability, and unwillingness to learn loving, peaceful ways that will keep your child's psyche, spirit, and emotionality whole. Please have him read Raising Cain, The American Academy of Pediatrics, and if he is unwilling to read you might suggest some therapy. How did you stand by and watch your husband do that to your son, your own flesh and blood? I empathize with you because just the thought of it makes me sick. I have a very low tolerance for this type of stuff and when my husband slips up I am all too quick to nab him and defend my son. Please stay with your baby. Know that his behavior is simply a reflection of you and your husband, your home and your family. If you follow your baby's lead, he will lead you down the road of behavioral changes the adults can make to shift his. Lead by example, please.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

People have to understand, that people who spank, swat, don't do it because they think its fun, usually people who spank, we're spanked as a child and don't know any better, so it seems right in their eyes. It doesn't make it right, but its the truth. I was spanked as a child, and until recently, I didn't know any better, I thought it was the norm because I didn't know better. Now I do.

And before I am going to get flamed, I am not defending physical violence, I am defending the fact that people are the way they are for a reason, and if its something you can work on together, I don't see why a divorce would be even a question. Unless the person in question seriously beat their child, I think its something they can work on together.


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## miziki (Mar 22, 2004)

Just sending hugs - that's a difficult situation to be in w/ your DH! Don't know if you're still looking for a counselor, and though I've not used these folks myself, here are some online parenting coaches who believe in GD (because that would be *key* - it'd be quite frustrating to have a counselor that mistakenly perceives GD to mean permissive parenting) that you could potentially interview:

Scott Noelle @ http://www.scottnoelle.com/
Jan Hunt @ http://www.naturalchild.com/counseling/
Naomi Aldort @ http://www.naomialdort.com/

Also, must 2nd the following suggestions offered by previous posters:
1) Food allergies - Rapp's Is This Your Child
2) Moving is one of the MOST stressful life events around, and if you've done one transatlantic move followed my one interstate move, both in the last 6 months? WHOA! Sounds like you *all* have been in a state of flux and that can make everything hard. I'm hoping that settling in to your new place will help dissipate the stress of moving.

Best of luck!


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Spatulagirl, there are many ways to help your husband and your son to both get their underlying needs met without physical violence. Setting the expectation that *no one will hit anyone in your home* under any circumstances what-so-ever is the first step, imo. I believe it is your responsibility to protect your 40 pound child from a 150+ pound man, even if it is his father hitting him (out of anger at that).

Your family needs help with anger management. Part of that comes from self-awareness and self-control and learning more effective conflict resolution skills. And part of it comes from taking a stand against violence. I understand that your husband was angry and he is responsible for his reactions. Just as your son is. But for him to embrace and advocate using violence will only beget more violence, imo. Helping your son to learn different tools of conflict resolution will only occur if they are modelled by people that he respects. Fearing someone and respecting them are very different issues.

First I would get some Bach flower remedies. I will try to find the link. But off the top, I recommend Cherry Plum for out of control anger, and Elm for feeling overwhelmed for dh. And some Cherry Plum for ds when he is melting down. You can select several and add them to a drink to help bring about a calm and more rational state before (or while) losing it. Self-control will only be learned by your son if your husband is able to show him how to control himself! The Bach flower remedies are safe, and will help!

I curse dairy. Our son is aggressive, unable to hear other's needs and boundaries about one hour after dairy consumption. Does dh or ds have any of these tendencies? It is very quantity specific. If ds has just a bit, it is almost not noticable, just antagoniazing. But if he has much, we all suffer.

High fructose corn syrup is another issue that we avoid. And artificial colors, flavors and preservatives. If you are introducing and supplying these products in your son's diet, don't hold him responsible to a higher degree of self-control than he is physically capable of as a result. Same with dh.

The tools of reflective listening such as in the book "How to Talk so Kids will Listen" is immeasurably helpful at defusing and validating other's needs. The book has a cartoon format which is easy to get the gist of the ideas. They also have parenting workshops.

I would validate that dh is angry and that he needs peace in his home. But hitting someone to get peace is bullying. And that isn't what he wants ds to learn, I imagine.

HTH, Pat

ETA:
Bach Flower Remedy Finder from Ainsworths
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I think there is a connection too...I am trying to cut out MSG for our family but it is a very difficult task... it's in so much stuff : ( Even Henry's, the local health food store, has some not so healthy food there.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spatulagirl*
Thank you everyone.

Mamajama very wise kind words. Thank you!

I think I will order him that book on tape. He loves books on tape and drives to DC every day for work so he has time!

He has needed anger counselling in the past but never followed through with it. This time I will see that he will.

Someone PM'd me and reminded me how difficult moving is on a child (we moved from Sicily to MD to WV in the past six months) as well as the parents. I think DH is stressed and Hunter is stressed and it isn't a good combo









4.5 is hard age (dd is hitting it right at 4







) and with the stress on your family everything is exacerbated.









we are about to move, and we are all very stressed, and DH is also very impatient with DD. one moment he thinks that she should obey instantenously to everything he says. the next moment he is so proud of how mature and self confident she is.

i remind him that very often *he* does not listen, so why should she?









right now DS needs extra connecting, extra loving. he is very stressed.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
how are things going spatulagirl???

MUCH better. Dh is working really hard on changing. No spanking or pinching or hitting in the house for a few months now. I instituted a no yelling rule that goes for parents too.

Everyone is settled in and DS is making friends which has helped.

Still in negotiations about agner management counselling. He wants to work it out himself and between us first if we can. So far so good. We just talk everyday and I also don't put down his decisions in front of the kids anymore. I have had to meet DH in the middle and become a bit more "strict" but if that means there is no more violence in the household, than I am more than happy to comply.

Annabanana, my DH is the same way. SOmetimes I have to remind him how much he and DS are alike. LOL


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

[
I would think, if I were losing my temper to the point where I wanted to hit my son, who is 2+ feet shorter and FAR lighter than me, and who canNOT hold me back, that I would seek anger management counseling again.[/QUOTE]

I wish that more people saw spanking like that!


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## cuddleluvinma (Jun 6, 2006)

I'm sorry you are going through this. It sounds like counceling would be a good thing in this situation. I wish that I had more to offer as far as advice. I do agree that backing down is not an option.
Also, as far as time outs go...what has worked for me is not making the child go to time out but saying something along the lines of "You look like you're feeling out of control. Do you need some time away to calm yourself down?" Actually works. If it is his own decision then he might see it as a positive thing. It also shows he has a role in changing his behavior. Also, I try to demenstrate it myself. ie: If I'm getting upset about something then I say, "I'm feeling really angry right now. I need some time away to calm down." Then I sit in my chair for a minute or two. I think that ds seeing that as an example helps. I hope that everything works out for you and your family. best of luck to you!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm glad to hear things have improved Kate.


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## lovesprout (Apr 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
So, I believe that parents of little boys need to change their expectations. Expect more active play, expect more aggression and work to channel it into something positive. Sports, lots of physical play - wrestling with dad, etc. A great book for tips on this is Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen. It is an awesome book.

My last question to you is, have you spent much time playing with other 4 year old boys? Getting a feel for how other boys are acting could really help both you and your dh get some perspective.

Thank you for your advice. I pray these tips help me, I am the one with the temper problem.







:


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## lovesprout (Apr 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
People have to understand, that people who spank, swat, don't do it because they think its fun, usually people who spank, we're spanked as a child and don't know any better, so it seems right in their eyes. It doesn't make it right, but its the truth. I was spanked as a child, and until recently, I didn't know any better, I thought it was the norm because I didn't know better. Now I do.

Thank you for that. Such wise words. So true! I grew up in a verbally and physically abusive home and consequently find it difficult to "resolve" things any other way. I battle against my upbringing constantly, and it is a struggle, but I LOVE my kids and don't want to hurt them.


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