# The continuum concept vs. gentle discipline?



## margaritamama (Jun 16, 2004)

I was just reading the very long thread about the woman who threatened to leave her children at the playground.

I am ashamed to admit that I have done something similar. My son is a very spirited child and transitions are difficult for him. The playground is especially difficult to leave and the only place I have ever done this. At 2.5 years old, saying we are leaving in x minutes doesn't work. Believe me I have tried it. I have never said, I will leave without you. I usually say, I am leaving, please come with me. Sometimes this doesn't even work and then I will start to walk away and he will come.

My rational for thinking this was OK is in the Continuum Concept. In this book Jean Liedloff (sp?) says that the Yequana children naturally followed their mothers while they worked. In their culture, life didn't revolve around the children.

Yet after reading the majority of these posts in the above mentioned thread, I feel like maybe we can't necessarily expect our children to just follow us around? (am I getting the message here?) Can anyone explain how we can resolve these two ideas? Am I getting the wrong idea from Liedloff or is this an ideal we can't duplicate in our world?

I would also like to add that my son since birth has had attachment/abandonment issues. He was practically velcroed to me (with a sling) the first year. And can sometimes still exhibit fear of abandonment. I really try to meet all his needs but sometimes I just don't have any more to give. For one thing he weighs over 40lbs now and I can't carry him around like I used to-so I do the best I can. Having read this thread I feel sick and sad inside to think that I may have been feeding this abandonment issue.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Hugs. It is scary to think that you might be feeding an abandonment issue. But on the other hand, right now my DD is at a stage where if I ask her to come to me/with me, she will say no. However, if I just walk away, she will follow me. I don't tell her I'm leaving her. I just say I'm going to the kitchen and start walking. That way, if she follows me-- I didn't make her. It's her own choice.

I don't expect this tactic will always work for her at all ages. I'm sure there will come an age where I will walk away, and she will prefer to stay whereever she is, doing whatever she wants. At that time, I'll have to find a new strategy for leaving certain places. (Sometimes I just avoid certain places or situations all together. Like my DD doesn't do well with adults or kids trying to touch her, so I avoid seeing kids I know want to pick her up and poke at her.) But for right now-- if your son is willing to follow you, as long as you don't utter threats about him being left-- if he follows you and he's not distressed, then perhaps you aren't really abandoning him but letting him make his own choice. If he is distressed, then maybe you have to seek another alternative.

Good luck!

Faith


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm pretty big into the bringing our kid into our world thing. Its not jst expecting them to follow us around but teaching that they are part of the family the world that there participation and function as a family member as a member of society ect is real. So many times we here of parents who eaither want to shove there child aside that wonder when they will sleep all night not sleep with them play independently longer etc each on there own not a big deal assuming a healthy relationship but it excludes the child from life. The other extreme can be constantly putting down everything for the child I personally believe this can also be just as damaging in the extreme.
Soo I allowed my DD to feel water as I washed dishes she touched felt and tasted the onions and peppers as I cooked (of course not with hot ones) We talked with her about what we were doing and showed her how to do things once old enough. SO yes in a sense I do "expect" my DD to be very aware of her surrounding and come with me.. (expect in the sense she does it and I'm used to it) There is also the reality of having a little one and for me a three year old is still a three year old. Parks for example are fun and leaving is no fun. I would not tell my DD I'll leave without her. we worked on leaving well being how we returned to have special park time. I will physically carry her out if needed but I wont lie to her.
Also something to consider yes we do need to modify the CC for our culture in the CC following the "parents' could have meant any mother while I'd love to be in a society where all adults took the responsility to treasure the kids and see the need to watch and care and guide all children. (not impose punishment ect just to help watch and protect) but in our society not only can we obviously not count on strangers but other enviromental factors make this difficult. The Yequana children can likely play outside in groups all day with little worry from parents. WHile I can "trust" my child on her own I can't be sure of strangers cars not stopping etc so saying I'm going to leave with out her is just NOT an option.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I'm into CC also. I've so far not had much trouble getting EnviroBaby to leave places, but often when we are walking somewhere (and we need to get there on time, or I'm tired or hungry, so we can't spend hours looking at every ant) I say, "This way!" and start walking and expect him to follow me. If he doesn't, I call back to him, "Come on! Let's go!" I'm careful to use a pleasant voice rather than an irritated one and to walk just fast enough to show intentionality rather than making it difficult for him to catch up. It often works, but not always. About 1 time in 10 I have to go back and pick him up.

Unlike the Yequana, I do look back to see if he's following, and I don't get particularly far away from him...maybe 10 feet away on a street with no traffic (we're walking on the sidewalk) and only 3 or 4 feet away where there's traffic. That's one way I think CC needs to be adapted to our modern world. I am far more concerned about cars than I am about kidnappers.

Quote:

in the CC following the "parents' could have meant any mother [...] but in our society not only can we obviously not count on strangers








I think my child, just like a Yequana child, knows who is an appropriate person to follow and who isn't. While the Yequana aren't among strangers as often as we are, I bet that if another tribe comes to visit, the kids don't just follow along behind any mother of the other tribe. I have never seen the slightest sign that EnviroBaby would follow a stranger instead of me, unless maybe we had very similar looking legs.









Quote:

The Yequana children can likely play outside in groups all day with little worry from parents.








Many of the children in my neighborhood can, too--not quite as young as the Yequana, but by 3 or 4 they understand staying in their own yards, and by 6 or 7 they can walk in groups to the playground or on errands. I see it all the time--and this is a bustling urban neighborhood with all kinds of people on the sidewalks but a low crime rate--and there's never been a child abducted by a stranger from my neighborhood, and it's very rare for a child to get hit by a car. They learn safety skills and use them.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Are you a member of the Continuum Concept tribe? Here is the link: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ight=continuum These type of issues are discussed regarding the nuances of applying the concept to our culture.

This is a post of mine from there related to this issue. If you would like strategies for creating mutually agreeable solutions to leaving the park, I'd be glad to discuss that.

Quote:

I do want to add that I am more of an advocate of suiting the environment to our children's needs than expecting that they will adapt to an unnatural environment from which they have no recourse. So, having "emotional outbursts" preceding going to a birthday party, to me indicates that the environmental demands were beyond the child's ability to cope with either the expectations or the environment. When that environment is organic such as the CC tribe, that is a totally different realm than one artificially or arbitrarilly imposed on a child without the child having a means of dissent.

For instance, I consider our home the organic environment from which our child does not have to leave unless he chooses to "follow me". And I do consider my own expectation not to leave him without adequate care my responsibility to provide, such as I did not birth into the natural order of an extended support system which doesn't exist in our home/community. Because I chose to birth into a nuclear family unit ("indigenous" to our culture), but chose also to *adopt* a CCish parenting/living practice (which does exist with an indigenous extended community of caregivers), I am accountable to not obstuct or remove the same non-imposed, non-directed freedoms that the CC children experience, imo. By insisting or expecting that our son will come with me against his will seems in opposition to the practices of the CC tribe from my perspective.

In order to provide an equivalent choice of the CC children, for our son to "follow me" or not, I believe that our son either has the option to refuse leaving his 'organic home' environment; or I work to find a mutually agreeable alternative that meets both my need for him to have adequate caregiving and his 'organic home' type environmental expectations. This effort on my part to replicate the choice that the CC children had, decreases the artificial and arbitrarily imposed environments to which children are generally objecting when they are "having a tantrum". This follows that imposing 'dressing to go out', 'hurry we have to be somewhere', 'having to get in the carseat', when our son doesn't want to follow causes the emotional distress in ways that the CC children were not subjected.

Therefore, our son has the option not to leave his organic home environment or we find a mutually agreeable solution. The same facilitation of choice occurs when he doesn't want to be somewhere, he has the option of going home with support. We work to find a mutually agreeable solution to that also.

Just wanted to add my $0.02

Pat


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

in the CC following the "parents' could have meant any mother [...] but in our society not only can we obviously not count on strangers

Quote:

I think my child, just like a Yequana child, knows who is an appropriate person to follow and who isn't. While the Yequana aren't among strangers as often as we are, I bet that if another tribe comes to visit, the kids don't just follow along behind any mother of the other tribe. I have never seen the slightest sign that EnviroBaby would follow a stranger instead of me, unless maybe we had very similar looking legs.

It was late when I posted







basically I know these kids could say go to multiple "moms" to say nurse that wasn't left up to just the parent children are more welcomed my DD can't say go next door and expect a snack. While in certain areas where "the villiage" simpily does take a more active role.
As for my own yes she would and has hapily followed others. She is stranger to no one and several times we have been places with say a daycare wheere when the kids are called she happily trys to join









Quote:

Many of the children in my neighborhood can, too--not quite as young as the Yequana, but by 3 or 4 they understand staying in their own yards, and by 6 or 7 they can walk in groups to the playground or on errands. I see it all the time--and this is a bustling urban neighborhood with all kinds of people on the sidewalks but a low crime rate--and there's never been a child abducted by a stranger from my neighborhood, and it's very rare for a child to get hit by a car. They learn safety skills and use them
I live in an apartment so sadly and annoyingly no yard and while shes aware of our boundry lines (side walks) there are lots of strangers who pass through, She was once grabbed by a stranger when she I was outside playing ball someone yelled from their front door and he put her down. (turned out to be an otherwise innocent man but off his meds and wanted to "hug" her







: Sadly living soo close to the border kinappings are a real threat and when the Winter visitors come there is an increase in auto accidents ( older drivers mistakes on one way streets) I too remember being able to wonder all over the place and the only rule we had was to be home by dinner or when the street light came on. Sadly my DD will not have that.

Deanna


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I think there is a difference between:
saying "it's time to go" and walking towards the car and expecting dc to follow you (and they know that is your expectation),
and saying "I'm leaving with you or without you."
As long as there is a distinction in the child's mind, that in the first case they know that you wouldn't leave them, then its totally different than the second case.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm another one that doesn't threaten to leave without DD, but I do say that it's time to go and then begin to walk slowly with the expectation that she will follow. We are never far ahead of her, so sometimes DH and I have to walk VERY slowly (I didn't know it was possible to walk that slowly), but we don't turn to her. Like EnviroBecca mentioned, maybe 1 time in 10 do I have to go back and get her.

But I had read TCC before I had DD, so we started this from the very beginning. It's all DD knows. I'm not sure how it would work if a child has had a different experience and therefore a different expectation of how things work in the world.

For me, the difference between GD and TCC has really seemed to be about what lifestyle you chose. We got rid of our car, moved to a mid-size city with lots of green space, we use bikes and public transportation, walk everywhere. It took sacrifices--we're poor, DH doesn't have the ideal job, we rent since we'll never be able to afford to own here (whereas we might be able to out in a suburb-type area). But, this was as close as we could come to a lifestyle where DD could ramble about, not be forced into a car several times a day, build a local tribe of shopkeepers and neighbors who get to know her as we walk around town, etc. We rarely have power situations or emotional distress because this lifestyle is so appealing to children--errands are fun for her because they involve speed and the elements (wind and weather when you're on a bike is a thrill for a babe), walking to the store in an Ergo or Mei Tai is something to look forward to, public transportation gives her a chance to be social and avoids the isolation of a car, walking around means she's been able to get to know most of our neighbors. This is as TCC as I've been able to get so far, but I imagine we could take it further by moving to a more rural area that is still close-knit or by moving into co-housing.

On the other hand, I think GD (and especially CL) puts too much pressure on the mother (or caretaker). I love the idea of reaching mutually agreeable solutions, and I think it's wondeful that this movement aims for respect for a child's desires, since this is so missing from our modern lifestyle. But, finding these solutions seems terribly difficult when a child (and the mother!) are so far from what we have experienced throughout evolution. A child is yearning to be outside and walking and breathing the air, not being strapped into a carseat. Waiting until the child is ready to get into the carseat is the solution I usually see recommended. But another solution is to get rid of the car and redo the lifestyle, and then the mother would not be placed in the position of waiting around in a parking lot because she wants to balance her child's needs and her own. I know this is a radical solution, but I find it equally radical to expect a mother to sit in a parking lot for an hour while her child decides to get into the carseat or wait at home for 30 minutes while her child gets ready to put on shoes.

And it is not until the last 50 years that we've even had the luxury to balance our children's needs to this extent. Talk to our grandmothers, and they did not have an hour to wait around until a child felt he/she was ready. I've lived in Kenya, Malawi and Ghana, each time with a local family, and none of those mothers would have 30 minutes/day to fulfill their child's need to play at a park or climb stairs.

I often hear 'well, but we don't have tribes.' True, but I think having a tribe is just one aspect of TCC. The other is that we are SOOO far from how we are meant to live, and I think children know that (even if we don't, as adults). And being so far from how we are meant to live seems to me to cause many of the problems that GD is then meant to resolve--change the lifestyle, perhaps lessen the need for GD (it worked for us!)


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## edswife (Jun 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom*
I know this is a radical solution, but I find it equally radical to expect a mother to sit in a parking lot for an hour while her child decides to get into the carseat or wait at home for 30 minutes while her child gets ready to put on shoes.

I find that to be a radical example. It proves your point but it's out there.

Quote:

Talk to our grandmothers, and they did not have an hour to wait around until a child felt he/she was ready. I've lived in Kenya, Malawi and Ghana, each time with a local family, and none of those mothers would have 30 minutes/day to fulfill their child's need to play at a park or climb stairs.
That's anecdotal. My grandmother's had plenty of time (and still do). They were both SAHM's and their children were their job.

Quote:

I often hear 'well, but we don't have tribes.' True, but I think having a tribe is just one aspect of TCC. The other is that we are SOOO far from how we are meant to live, and I think children know that (even if we don't, as adults). And being so far from how we are meant to live seems to me to cause many of the problems that GD is then meant to resolve--change the lifestyle, perhaps lessen the need for GD (it worked for us!)
I, personally, don't *want* to live in a tribe. I don't want to live close enough to a town to be able to ride a bike. We live on 10 acres 30 minutes from town (by car) and I LOVE it.
And who says we aren't living the way we were "meant to"? Who's the all knowing power who gets to make that call? And what does "meant to" mean? Who's intentions are we to be following?


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## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

you ask a very interesting question margaritamamma
I have thought myself about this idea from CC about the children following the mother naturally without compulsion from the mother
the way I have understood this to apply to our culture is that it is about the child understanding the mother's expectations
so in the park scenario, if the mother has the solid intention to leave and communicates this tothe child with her voice and her action - then the child would understand and follow
however, for me, this also includes the possibility of physically carrying a child who does not follow - this is because I do not consider that I am as sure in my intentions and as good at communicating them as the Yequana women are - so therefore I need to use additional skills to help me


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## MommyDOK (Jan 9, 2003)

I don't know much about cc or the tribe you speak of, but I do know that my dd has had trouble transitioning out of a very fun activity!

I tell her before we get to the park that when I say it's time to leave then it's time to leave. We talk about it a little. Then, when it's time to go, I prepare her by saying I'm putting her little sister in the car and then her turn to get in the car. If she doesn't come, then I pick her up. It's more difficult when she's tired. Once she understood that I'm serious about time to leave, then she stopped fighting it. We're pretty successful at it now.

It's especially rough when they're tired. I don't feel comfortable saying, "Come w/ me or I'm leaving." bc the reality is I'm not going to leave her there.


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

A couple of thoughts:

It's very easy to idealize (even stereotype) other cultures--especially "Indian" or indigenous ones. I liked CC a lot, but I am sensitive to the possibility that I am putting my own personal idea about "tribes" or "Indians" into my interpretations. Western culture has long had a fascination with the 'primitive,' and idealizing the primitive goes back a long way in our society. (Maybe it's because it represents something we genuinely lack most of the time, but. I often wonder how many 'real' Native Americans or other native people have read CC and what they think about it.)

The other thought: There is something inherently in conflict with the AP/CC idea of the tribe, and the AP SAHM. I notice that the 'working mamas' forum has many people who refer to their network of caregivers as a 'tribe'--but that the SAHMs often seem (and describe themselves as) extraordinarily socially isolated, responsible for almost everything domestic at home, and sometimes very opposed to even hiring a babysitter for a few hours (or are going through agonies of guilt when they do so and discover how much they enjoyed the break). These seem to be 2 very different ideas of what AP can be, what the mother's role in a child's life is, etc.

Finally--Pat, all I can say is, you clearly don't seem to have to ever get your kid somewhere on time!


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

Just wanted to chime in here for a minute...

I read cc not too long ago, soon after I started doing this with my dd2 who is now 3.5yo. I think she knows that she needs to come...she may lollygag until the very last second but she will come. I don't look back, every expectation that I have for her at that moment is for her to follow. Its not something that is stern, its just what is done.

The same thing I have for her when she is at the park. She may climb up something that she has never done before and may well look very shaky doing it....but, I never once let it enter my mind that she will fall. I don't say be careful or anything like that because I think if you put it out there it is more likely to happen because you have planted that seed of self-doubt. This was not an easy one for me at all...with dd1 I felt like all I did was say be careful. It was too the point that my grandmother would point it out and tell me to stop.

I changed after I read cc and I think the kids are better off for that.

Ok, did I stray too much off topic?


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Liedloff is not an anthropologist, nor did she have any training in observation when she studied the Yequena. The CC is a sweet book, and in many ways inspiring, but I would be wary of accepting it as a wholly accurate picture of what life was like for the Yequena, or what life is like for any other indigenous peoples.

Katherine Dettwyler has a reasonable approach to the CC, in my opinion: http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detcross.html


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## margaritamama (Jun 16, 2004)

I just wanted to thank all of you for your responses! I am busy with ds now and will write more later!


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Deva33mommy wrote:

Quote:

I think there is a difference between:
saying "it's time to go" and walking towards the car and expecting dc to follow you (and they know that is your expectation),
and saying "I'm leaving with you or without you."










Rzberrymom wrote:

Quote:

For me, the difference between GD and TCC has really seemed to be about what lifestyle you chose. We got rid of our car, moved to a mid-size city with lots of green space, we use bikes and public transportation, walk everywhere. It took sacrifices--we're poor, DH doesn't have the ideal job, we rent since we'll never be able to afford to own here (whereas we might be able to out in a suburb-type area). But, this was as close as we could come to a lifestyle where DD could ramble about, not be forced into a car several times a day, build a local tribe of shopkeepers and neighbors who get to know her as we walk around town, etc. We rarely have power situations or emotional distress because this lifestyle is so appealing to children--errands are fun for her because they involve speed and the elements (wind and weather when you're on a bike is a thrill for a babe), walking to the store in an Ergo or Mei Tai is something to look forward to, public transportation gives her a chance to be social and avoids the isolation of a car, walking around means she's been able to get to know most of our neighbors.
I would agree completely, except that I don't think GD and TCC are mutually exclusive. There are various "flavors" of GD, and of AP, some of which are compatible with TCC. When I read about how the Yequana discipline their children, "gentle" is one of the first words that comes to mind! But I agree that choosing a lifestyle that adds variety and interest to life and reduces isolation, makes some of the direct "discipline" and power struggles unnecessary.

Ed's Wife wrote:

Quote:

I, personally, don't *want* to live in a tribe. I don't want to live close enough to a town to be able to ride a bike. We live on 10 acres 30 minutes from town (by car) and I LOVE it.
And who says we aren't living the way we were "meant to"? Who's the all knowing power who gets to make that call? And what does "meant to" mean? Who's intentions are we to be following?
Have you read the book we are discussing?







The author is not an "all knowing power", but she has some very interesting ideas, about 75% of which I've found to be quite valid.

If you don't want to live in a tribe or a town, fine. Go for it. To me, it is wonderful to watch my child soaking up his daily experiences in a place where there are places to go and things to see and people to meet. I grew up seeing places like that on "Sesame Street" and feeling a heartwrenching craving to live there instead of in suburban vanilla ranchhouse stripmall world of empty lawns and no sidewalks and scheduled playdates.







: IN MY OPINION that is not an appropriate place to raise a child. I know it looks ideal to some people.


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## edswife (Jun 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
If you don't want to live in a tribe or a town, fine. Go for it. To me, it is wonderful to watch my child soaking up his daily experiences in a place where there are places to go and things to see and people to meet. I grew up seeing places like that on "Sesame Street" and feeling a heartwrenching craving to live there instead of in suburban vanilla ranchhouse stripmall world of empty lawns and no sidewalks and scheduled playdates.







: IN MY OPINION that is not an appropriate place to raise a child. I know it looks ideal to some people.









Yes I've read the book. And it wasn't the author that seemed to know it all. It was the assumption by you that we "aren't living the way we're meant to" that promted that response. Who are you to decide that we aren't living the way we're intended? Secondly, I live on 10 acres surrounded by houses on 10 acres. In order to get rid of our car I'd have to live close enough to town to ride a bike or catch a bus. As it is that would require me to move 15 miles closer to town than I am now. To me, THAT isn't an ideal place to raise a child. I don't want neighbors any closer than the 3/4 of a mile they are now. I don't want to live on a paved road close to traffic. I want my child to be able to walk out his front door and ride his horse or his four wheeler or go hunting or fishing with out ever leaving his family land.


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## MacGirl (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyDOK*
I don't know much about cc or the tribe you speak of, but I do know that my dd has had trouble transitioning out of a very fun activity!

I tell her before we get to the park that when I say it's time to leave then it's time to leave. We talk about it a little. Then, when it's time to go, I prepare her by saying I'm putting her little sister in the car and then her turn to get in the car. If she doesn't come, then I pick her up. It's more difficult when she's tired. Once she understood that I'm serious about time to leave, then she stopped fighting it. We're pretty successful at it now.

It's especially rough when they're tired. I don't feel comfortable saying, "Come w/ me or I'm leaving." bc the reality is I'm not going to leave her there.

I don't know if this will help or not, but with my son (age 3) it has worked well.... (I only use this as a last resort thing)

You can walk to the car with me like a big boy, all by yourself or Mommy will pick you up and bring you to the car. (95% of the time he'll choose to go by himself)

another one that works is
kneeling down on his level, holding his hips and telling him that if he gives me a hassle every time we have to leave a place like the park, Mommy isn't going to want to take him there as often.

I know neither of these are 'positive'. And I know there are much better ways to suggest. However, these do work for my son when he is in a very non-agreeable mood.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

Regarding CC--
I would agree with many here that you need to consider that our culture is very different from a tribal community. I would not think the same results would be possible in our culture... maybe it's easier to adapt the general concept to our parenting style, and not the specific examples of the tribe's daily life. An example was given of the child following the mother... and I wonder how many times have I seen kids leaving a park willingly... our kids see how other kids and mothers interact so they might not get that strong sense of following us (unless they saw other children following their mothers). Another twist to this is that we take our children to the park (or other place) to specifically give them time to play... I think that's another subtle message that the park is fun and leaving it is not fun...

Quote from original post:
"I would also like to add that my son since birth has had attachment/abandonment issues. He was practically velcroed to me (with a sling) the first year. And can sometimes still exhibit fear of abandonment. I really try to meet all his needs but sometimes I just don't have any more to give. For one thing he weighs over 40lbs now and I can't carry him around like I used to-so I do the best I can. Having read this thread I feel sick and sad inside to think that I may have been feeding this abandonment issue."

Here is the link to the Attachment Parenting website. They have good ideas about how to parent growing children... because it's true that we can't wear them in slings forever!
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/8...-schoolage.pdf

With regard to feelings of abandonment...
I have been thinking about this too because of ds' similar fears. From what I have read, and what I believe, my son trusts that I"m going to meet his needs so he shares his true feelings with me kwim?? I have seen other kids with similar age to ds who haven't been allowed to gain independence at their own speed... rather one day their parents just decided their child should ??? I didn't see that the child's need went away, but their behavior changed because the requests went unanswered... but I'm just rambling now... does anyone have any real knowledge of what I'm trying to explain?? Anyways, I want to add that his needs to tend to come and go... like when he's sick he needs more cuddling and reassurance.

Another resource:
I am reading "Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child" by John Gottman. He gives great examples for interacting with children that are in line with AP. Specifically it has parents think about how they handle their own emotions, and then discusses how parents can nurture a child's emotional well being. I realize it is not along the lines of Continuum Concept, but it has helped me stay connected with my son as he matures and experiences the world--including his feelings about it... and his fear that we're going to leave him.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
saying "it's time to go" and walking towards the car and expecting dc to follow you (and they know that is your expectation).

We do this. I have to do a lot of coaxing and make it part of the play. Or not, depending on how we feel.

One thing I learned from Kohn is that I can build trust with DS that I am looking out for his interests as well as mine; that I take time to indulge his needs and wants regularly. It seems to work unless he is overly tired. Then he forgets everything...


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
I'm another one that doesn't threaten to leave without DD, but I do say that it's time to go and then begin to walk slowly with the expectation that she will follow. We are never far ahead of her, so sometimes DH and I have to walk VERY slowly (I didn't know it was possible to walk that slowly), but we don't turn to her. Like EnviroBecca mentioned, maybe 1 time in 10 do I have to go back and get her.

But I had read TCC before I had DD, so we started this from the very beginning. It's all DD knows. I'm not sure how it would work if a child has had a different experience and therefore a different expectation of how things work in the world.

For me, the difference between GD and TCC has really seemed to be about what lifestyle you chose. We got rid of our car, moved to a mid-size city with lots of green space, we use bikes and public transportation, walk everywhere. It took sacrifices--we're poor, DH doesn't have the ideal job, we rent since we'll never be able to afford to own here (whereas we might be able to out in a suburb-type area). But, this was as close as we could come to a lifestyle where DD could ramble about, not be forced into a car several times a day, build a local tribe of shopkeepers and neighbors who get to know her as we walk around town, etc. We rarely have power situations or emotional distress because this lifestyle is so appealing to children--errands are fun for her because they involve speed and the elements (wind and weather when you're on a bike is a thrill for a babe), walking to the store in an Ergo or Mei Tai is something to look forward to, public transportation gives her a chance to be social and avoids the isolation of a car, walking around means she's been able to get to know most of our neighbors. This is as TCC as I've been able to get so far, but I imagine we could take it further by moving to a more rural area that is still close-knit or by moving into co-housing.

On the other hand, I think GD (and especially CL) puts too much pressure on the mother (or caretaker). I love the idea of reaching mutually agreeable solutions, and I think it's wondeful that this movement aims for respect for a child's desires, since this is so missing from our modern lifestyle. But, finding these solutions seems terribly difficult when a child (and the mother!) are so far from what we have experienced throughout evolution. A child is yearning to be outside and walking and breathing the air, not being strapped into a carseat. Waiting until the child is ready to get into the carseat is the solution I usually see recommended. But another solution is to get rid of the car and redo the lifestyle, and then the mother would not be placed in the position of waiting around in a parking lot because she wants to balance her child's needs and her own. I know this is a radical solution, but I find it equally radical to expect a mother to sit in a parking lot for an hour while her child decides to get into the carseat or wait at home for 30 minutes while her child gets ready to put on shoes.

And it is not until the last 50 years that we've even had the luxury to balance our children's needs to this extent. Talk to our grandmothers, and they did not have an hour to wait around until a child felt he/she was ready. I've lived in Kenya, Malawi and Ghana, each time with a local family, and none of those mothers would have 30 minutes/day to fulfill their child's need to play at a park or climb stairs.

I often hear 'well, but we don't have tribes.' True, but I think having a tribe is just one aspect of TCC. The other is that we are SOOO far from how we are meant to live, and I think children know that (even if we don't, as adults). And being so far from how we are meant to live seems to me to cause many of the problems that GD is then meant to resolve--change the lifestyle, perhaps lessen the need for GD (it worked for us!)


This is right-on. Dead center. Totally intuitive for me, too. We try stay out of the car and we try to avoid having to be somewhere at a certain time. We do a lot of meandering and talking/listening to neighbors (human and otherwise). Thanks, really, for putting this into words for me.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

Regarding the car seat situation... I have had less than 5 struggles to get my son in the seat (he is 2+).... each taking less than 15 minutes to resolve. He knows that it's the expectation that we all have to be sitting safely in our seats when we are in our car. Now I don't know what this will be like as he grows.

So I don't know where AP falls in with GD and CL... but I was reminded by a friend the other day that AP is NOT a child centered approach, rather it takes the needs of each family member into account. So when I hear about some instances, like waiting over an hour for a child to be ready to get in his/her car seat, I wonder in what way that was meeting the needs of the parent/child. Of course if a parent feels they have the time to wait an hour for their child to be ready, great.

At the end of the day we all have different ideas about how we want to live. Some parents will give up much to make the lifestyle changes they find necessary to live life as they think it is supposed to be. While other parents will work to incorporate AP/GD and CL into their daily lives our modern culture. Either way, (and everything in between), the only thing that I think is necessary for all parents is to be respectful and responsive to their children.

(If a child has fear of abandonment, then perhaps it's not the best thing to walk away from them at the park. And if you live in an unsafe area, perhaps it's not an option to turn your back on your child.)


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