# Pro- life Q for Vegans/ Vegatarians



## Megan_Cherry (Feb 16, 2003)

Ok so I know vegans usually dont wear leather or use products tested on animals. But is it part of the vegan philosiphy to be pro- life in terms of abortion? If you wont eat an unfertialized chicken egg, could you justify supporting a law that would allow a woman to throw away her own fertalized egg/ fetus? Also I know many vegatarians choose not to eat meat because of the issue with crutely to animals. How do you view cruelty to humans in the since of abortion?

Been thinking about this lately. Thanks for any imput.


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## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

Well, I'm pro-life and about 95% vegetarian. I have eaten meat a few times this pregnancy, at restaurants, but intend to go 100% veg after this baby is born... just a sad not-100% veggie wannabe.... but I'm trying!!

But I don't know that you'll find any correlation... because in my experience veggies of all kinds tend to be more liberal than your average Joe.

Kimberly


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## Megan_Cherry (Feb 16, 2003)

Hey kimlib- I think ive seen u on the gcm boards right?


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## tricia80 (Oct 28, 2003)

pro-life for myself..but i dont go around being loud and obnoxious and dont believe in ppl who blow up or kill abortion doctors... i believe that ppl do it for various reasons such as rape, incest, failed bc etc.. and thats fine for them.. but what really gets me are the woman who do it as a "form of birth control"... where they have had numerous abortions...

i dont really think this is in an appropriate forum and jus might get moved... :LOL

ETA: now its in the appropriate forum so this little tidbit above is kinda needless... :LOL


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## OnlyLovePrevails (Feb 9, 2004)

Pro-Life Veg. No pickett lines tho. i do think that this is going to be an iffy subject to try to discuss. May Be a Heated Debate. Unless we all are simply factual and leave our Emotions out of it.


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## isosmom (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tricia80*
.

i dont really think this is in an appropriate forum and jus might get moved... :LOL

I agree, doesn't really have anything to do with good eating, actually this argument makes lots of us sick


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## indie (Jun 16, 2003)

I'm both vegetarian and pro-life, but I don't think these issues are related in the minds of most people.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm vegetarian and pro-choice. I also eat eggs.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

To come at it from a different angle, I eat meat (free-range, well-treated, etc. only) and I am pro life.


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## mahogny (Oct 16, 2003)

I'm pro-choice, lacto-ovo veg.


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## layla (Jul 2, 2002)

I'm pro-choice and veg. Do eat eggs but used to be strict vegan On the pro-choice thing, I believe a woman can make her own choices, but certainly should NOT be used as birth control. No pickett lines here either.


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## QueeTheBean (Aug 6, 2002)

I'm prochoice and L/O veg.

I also think that cows should be allowed to have abortions if they choose.

Oh--ignore me, I'm just being silly! Interesting question, though. Too much coffee today!! I am going away now.


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## Attached Mamma (Mar 16, 2004)

I am vegetarian, was vegan for 7 years, now 95% vegan, and I am pro-choice. Just as it is ultimately a choice on what you put in your body, it should be your choice on what you do to your body. Whether I think it is wrong for someone to have an abortion or not, it is their choice, and no one else's. Just like alot of drugs are illegal, that doesn't stop people from using them or getting them, the same would hold true for abortions, if they were deemed illegal, if someone wants one they will find a way to have one, even if they have to do it themselves like they did back before it was legal. I never force my veg views on anyone, if they ask me why I am veg I will tell them, but otherwise I keep my mouth shut, just as I expect them to keep their mouth shut about why they think humans were made to eat meat, unless I ask them.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

I am very curious as to all the vegetarian threads lately. I hold myself to higher standards of eating, but don't assume that meat eaters are all killers. It is all a very bizarre comparison to me. I don't force animals to die for my food, and I don't force women to abort. If a woman chooses abortion that is her choice and has nothing to do with my food


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Are you vegetarian? Why did you want to know this?

I'm a vegetqarian and do not wear any leather or use any household product that isn't vegan including beauty supplies, etc. I do eat cheese (rennett free) sometimes and use honey. ANyway-

In my heart I simply do not support pro-choice. Which doesn't make sense as I'm such a tree-hugging liberal. But that's my own thoughts. I believe that a baby is a baby from the time that little heart is beating... and killing it is killing it and I just don't support killing.

That said I don't push that view of mine on others. it's such a heated debate sometimes and many women have some very strong convictions about "their bodies being their's blah blah blah and I'm not going to fight that fight!

kimberley


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## Megan_Cherry (Feb 16, 2003)

Thanks everyone for your posts.

I am not a vegatarian. I eat poultry and fish and rarely beef, no pork. I have been thinking alot lately about abortion. I used to think of myself as pro- choice but have recently been studying it and changed my mind to pro- life. I was just mostly cerious if pro-life was part of the vegan philosophy. I know it has nothing to do with eating. But many people make their eating choices based on their ideas of animal crutely. I just wanted to know if human conception falls under this too. I know a couple of vegans but I am too celery (chicken) to ask them about this in person. I would hate for them to feel as if I am attacking them. I figure that people are more likely to feel comfortable talking about this in cyber space.

Thanks everyone for being respectful.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Moved to TAO. (The subject of seems to be abortion, not nutrition or eating.)


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## Boobs (Apr 17, 2004)

I'm a vegetarian trying really hard to live vegan. It looks like I'm the first one to say that I just don't know where I stand in the abortion debate. I'm a liberal Christian if you can figure that one out (I'm confused A LOT!)







and I believe very strongly in "Thou Shalt Not Kill". But I also really really don't want the gov't to be able to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies. I just don't know. And it's not for lack of thought.

Tracie (who is pretty comfy on the fence)


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Vegans do not use any leather or animal products in any area of their life. If they do, they are vegetarians. Vegetarians who eat eggs or dairy are lacto-ovo-vegetarians. Some people are lacto-ovo-pesce-vegetarians, but I think if your eat fish you shouldn't call yourself a vegetarian.

I am very much pro-choice. I believe that women's right to abortion is a human rights issue. When I was first pregnant with dd, and was contemplating abortion, someone asked me how I could be a pro-choice vegan. (She didn't actually know I was pregnant, either.) It's simple, animals can't choose what happens to them under our power. WOmen should be able to choose what is best for themselves. I suppose it all depends on when you think "life" begins and yadda yadda yadda-- it will always come back to that I suppose. The basic arguments still apply, even though I hold life as sacred.

I hold my rights as a woman sacred. I hold my body as my own as sacred. God forbid you or anyone else is in the position to choose, but if you ever are, I'll bet my life that you would be grateful for the choice, especially the choice between a safe, clean abortion over a dangerous, filthy, illegal one and the choice to keep the pregnancy.

In the end I kept my pregnancy and my life is better for it. It was a decision I wrangled with for a long time and I think I chose wisely. Had my last pregnancy stuck, the one I miscarried at my father's funeral, and I'd kept the baby, it would have been the wrong decision. My guess is that I would have aborted at that point but I really can't say, since I thought I'd abort with dd.

I don't love my child any less because I thought of aborting. My belief system embraces her decision to be born, and her messages to me in early pregnancy as I made my decision. Had I chosen to abort, I'm confident she would have chosen to come around on her own terms again. My choice was my business and no one else's, be they vegetarians or omnivores.

I do not eat animal products because I cannot participate in the torture of animals and the massive destruction of our environment. I cannot consume a beast that eats 40 times what I eat just to make me one dinner. It is wasteful and wrong.

Forcing women to have babies and then choosing to shun them and complain about the meager aid society gives them, where the kids grow up without their mothers and become "burdens on society" is also wrong. I will not participate in it. Forcing women into alleyways for destructive and unsafe abortions is inhumane.

Vegetarianism is also a feminist issue for me, it isn't just about animals, but women's rights too. Feminism is tied to every major issue. Dd is waking from her nap, so I'll try to come back and discuss vegetarianism as feminist later.
Lauren


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I'm O/L veggie and Pro-choice, picket lines included. I don't tell people not to eat meat, and I won't tell women what they can do with their bodies. I will say that I am not a veggie because I think it's cruel to eat animals. I think that when looking at evolutionary biology, people sort of naturally eat meat if they can. It's how our heads got bigger. It's an integral part of our biology, imo. But I won't eat meat because I believe that the way it is processed is wrong and is cruelty to animals, as well as the fact that there tends to be a very inefficient conversion of proteins. We're Diet for a Small Planet Vegetarians. We're also very very politically left.

I'm seriously not trying to start a debate here. Just voicing my opinion.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

About the unfertilized chicken eggs, I don't believe any eggs are for us to take and eat, fertilized or no.

And as far as pickett lines go, when I see folks outside planned parenthood picketing, I talk to them long enough to get their names and then go inside and make a donation to planned panthood on their names. When I make an "unsolicited" donation I make in George W. Bush's name. Even when we are dirt broke I will always make a sacrifice to donate a few bucks to PP in the name of the people who try to frighten women into having unwanted children. Or to frighten women away from safe contraception. I used to go to PP simply for pelvic exams in a feminist environment. Planned parenthood does more to protact against unwanted pregnancy than all of the pro life groups in the country COMBINED. So as far as I'm concerned, pro life groups should contribute too.


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## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
In my heart I simply do not support pro-choice. Which doesn't make sense as I'm such a tree-hugging liberal. But that's my own thoughts. I believe that a baby is a baby from the time that little heart is beating... and killing it is killing it and I just don't support killing.

That said I don't push that view of mine on others. It's such a heated debate sometimes and many women have some very strong convictions about "their bodies being their's blah blah blah and I'm not going to fight that fight!

kimberley

Ok, sorry, I know this is OT. Kimberley, what you just said makes you PRO-CHOICE. It doesn't mean you like abortion or plan to have one or even feel ok about people having them. It just means that you don't want to push your views on others!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I am vegetarian, was vegan for 7 years, now 95% vegan, and I am pro-choice. Just as it is ultimately a choice on what you put in your body, it should be your choice on what you do to your body. Whether I think it is wrong for someone to have an abortion or not, it is their choice, and no one else's. Just like alot of drugs are illegal, that doesn't stop people from using them or getting them, the same would hold true for abortions, if they were deemed illegal, if someone wants one they will find a way to have one, even if they have to do it themselves like they did back before it was legal. I never force my veg views on anyone, if they ask me why I am veg I will tell them, but otherwise I keep my mouth shut, just as I expect them to keep their mouth shut about why they think humans were made to eat meat, unless I ask them.
What she said (except I'm not vegan).

Quote:

Planned parenthood does more to protect against unwanted pregnancy than all of the pro life groups in the country COMBINED.
Thank you!!!!!!


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## tresleo (Mar 15, 2004)

I consider myself "pro-choice" (as I am *for* choices!), but anti abortion. I definately believe women have a choice, I just believe the choice that needs to made is not wether or not to abort. I believe the choice is what type of contraception to use before a pregnancy occurs. Or what family (their own, an adopted family, etc.) the child will grow up in if an unwanted pregnancy does happen.

That said, I would never hold it against a woman who chose to have an abortion. I think no matter what the situation was that she was in to have come to a decision like that, it would certainly never be made better by having someone judge her or look down on her. Who am I to pass judgement?! Although, I would be (and have been) completely honest with how I think/believe/feel on the subject.

As far as women being able to choose what happens to their body, my thoughts are, an abortion isn't happening *to* the woman's body. The woman is allowing it to happen by going *through* her body.

Just chiming in with my opinion...


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Another pro-choice L/O veg here.

I do think it's a very interesting question, and I do see the connections. I know oatmeal is a passionate vegetarian and a passionate pro-lifer, and I bet for her the two are connected (although I've never seen her discuss it directly).

I have not been able to summon the courage to go vegan (my dh, who is not vegetarian, is fine being L/O veg at home but would go ballistic if I tried to make us go vegan) but I definitely see the connections between both the dairy/cattle and egg/chicken industries and the abortion question. We force cows to have babies that they then lose so we can drink their milk, and their babies get to drink blood or other milk substitutes until they get slaughtered themselves (or forced to become mama cows). We force chickens to lay eggs so we can eat their eggs and their bodies. It's forced, unnatural reproduction all the way.

Women shouldn't be forced to have babies they don't want and can't care for, and cows and chickens shouldn't be forced to live horribly unnatural lives, with their natural reproduction perverted for our pleasure.

Gee, I really need to become a vegan soon.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
Vegetarianism is also a feminist issue for me, it isn't just about animals, but women's rights too.

Rock on eco-feminist







You said it very well. Animal rights and human rights- 2 different issues, and sometimes vegetarians embrace both


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeysMama*
Rock on eco-feminist







You said it very well. Animal rights and human rights- 2 different issues, and sometimes vegetarians embrace both

:LOL Thanks. It was hard to find an eco-feminist website that discussed abortion and vegetarianism, so I am still working on an explanation for myself.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

I am a lacto-ovo veg too and Pro-Choice. Just like Lauren says, it all ties into feminism for me







I don't force my beliefs on anyone and I certainly don't expect others to force their beliefs on me!


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## calmom (Aug 11, 2002)

I think this is a very interesting question! I'm a vegan animal rights activist and completely pro-life and don't meet many people like myself irl.

Christie


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

OK, for those who are pro-choice and veggieheads (of any persuasion) and make the "don't push my choice on others" association between the two.

I have a Q for you, do you *advocate* for either? If you were asked about vegetarianism would you share your concerns about killing to eat?

If you don't personally believe in abortion (only one reason to hold that belief) but were in a discussion with a pregnant friend and the friend asked *you* for your opinion would you say you personally think it's not the right choice?

I'm just wondering how that viewpoint plays out in real life.

Debra Baker


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I have a Q for you, do you *advocate* for either?

Yes! I am a huge advocate for healthy eating. If a friend has concerns over the hormones or diseases in meat, I may suggest going veg or seeking out organic meats. I also do not wear fur or buy animal tested products, and when shopping at my fav stores, I invite them to only sell cruelty-free.

And for abortion, I am in womens health so obviously I advocate for the health of women. If a woman wants an abortion, I will make certain they have read about the pros and cons ( medically and emotionally) and other options ( herbal, pills, etc) and also make certain they don't go to a "clinic" as they are often mass-factory like, no pain killers and run by inexperienced technicians. I would recommend a doctor that will do it safely and humanely


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

^^
What she said.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

In real life, I too advocate for both, I suppose. I don't ever tell people they should do something, but certainly offer my viewpoint on the matter of vegetarianism and my reasonings for my choice as a means of education. I also advocate for the health and well-being of my friends when it comes to reproductive health. I once bought Our Bodies, Ourselves for 7 of my girlfriends. I've also taken a friend to have an abortion, passed out morning after pills and talked openly about yearly paps, etc. Under certain circumstances, I would even introduce abortion as an option for someone, though in the case where I took the friend, it was entirely her idea. I am willing to offer all the support I can when it comes to having a baby or not, no matter what the choice, and have done so in the past.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I'm with KeysMama

-I don't want animals forced to have decisions made for them (I'm vegan)

-I don't want humans forced to have decisions made for them (I'm pro-choice)

I don't really see the two as connected except in the way I've mentioned above. I'm happy to talk about my beliefs on either issue with people but I don't force the issue or seek debate with anyone. This goes for any of the other beliefs I hold about big issues in life. I'm far happier to talk about my veganism with people because for me, it is a closed issue. However, abortion tends to be more fluid in that theoretically, and personally, I'm anti-abortion. However, I don't want to force my beliefs on others and don't think people should be forced to have a baby, particularly given the many issues involved like health, rape, incest, lack of money and maturity to raise a child, etc.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy*
I'm with KeysMama

-I don't want animals forced to have decisions made for them (I'm vegan)

-I don't want humans forced to have decisions made for them (I'm pro-choice)


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

PikkuMyy said:


> I'm with KeysMama
> 
> -I don't want animals forced to have decisions made for them (I'm vegan)
> 
> ...


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## chiromama (Dec 29, 2003)

Pro-choice, lacto-ovo veg here....

I belive in choice.. those are my choices.









also, well said anna!


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I think the point of the op is that abortion inherently takes a life (I believe of an unborn baby others would say a fetus who isn't yet human)

Those of you are focusing on choice but the association between vegetariasm and abortion is many who choose to be vegetarian do so because they don't want to kill animals. If a woman has an abortion a life has been lost.

DB


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

See, this makes no sense at all. This is turning vegetarianism into a whole other ism. And quite frankly I do not understand the point that is trying to be made but outing veggies as choicers.

Are us veggies to assume that you meat eaters kill people? Eat babies? No, that would be just as absurd.


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

Keysmama, you make good points. I'm also scratching my head at how people are making the link between what you eat and abortion rights. If all meat eaters eat meat and support killing animals, does that mean all meat eaters want abortion? That's the flip side of the logical argument here!!!!!

I think its more of a choice issue.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I agree. Also, I find it a little insulting when a person who pays money into a system that abuses and kills animals talks to me about when a life is lost.

It makes me want to start a philosophical discussion on what "losing one's life" really means.









This thread is starting to head downhill, I feel it my bones.

If the point of this thread was to try and convince a bunch of pro-choice vegetarians to change their mind to be pro-life- it ain't gonna happen so don't waste your type. If the point was to find out how many vegetarians are anti choice and how many are pro choice, it looks like the mission has been accomplished.

To come into this thread and start getting argumentative is silly. It will always come back to the same old arguments anyway. If this is going to turn into another debate I'm just not going to waste my energy.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

c'mon, lets go get some salad.....


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## isismama (Mar 8, 2002)

I am a pro-choice vegan. Philosophically I believe that the ideal is self-determination for all living beings. For example, I think cows should be able to live out their lives without unnecessary human interference (like, oh, killing them for their meat or keeping them pregnant so they can make lots of milk). The principle of self-determination holds true for women as well, of course, and so I support women's right to do whatever they wish with their own bodies. Ethically, I think women matter more than the fetuses in their bodies and so the principle of self-determination means, for me, that I completely support abortion rights (free abortion on demand) for women if that is what they choose.

Becky


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Free abortion?

What about my self-determination not to pay for someone's abortion?!

db


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## MamaMonica (Sep 22, 2002)

In the US, to acheive self-determination about tax dollars not going to where you disprove, you need to earn below the taxable income and not pay any. Property taxes usually go for local programs. Some people do this. For me- there is a compromise about living in the US. I don't want to be paying for this war, but I think we need taxes for libraries, roads, police. Even republicans aren't getting rid of taxes but making little token cuts and spending big bucks on a war that raises the deficit. If you want to work on the tax issue/ self-determination, vote Libertarian.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monnie*
If you want to work on the tax issue/ self-determination, vote Libertarian.











I was an animal rights vegetarian for 5 years. I was strongly pro-choice during those years. I'm no longer a vegetarian (lost the faith), but I'm still pro-choice. There was no connection between the two issues in my mind.


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## isismama (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
Free abortion?

What about my self-determination not to pay for someone's abortion?!

db

Well, I live in a country that has (and I believe in) universal healthcare, which includes reproductive healthcare.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Most healthcare systems won't cover elective procedures. Abortion isn't neccessary to save your life. We're not talking malignant tumor removal here people. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for the government to cover it. Now birth control, on the other hand, could possibly be viewed as preventative medicine.

Edited to add: I'm a pro-life vegan. I'm opposed to killing in general.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

AFAIK, Canada's healthcare system covers abortions, at any point in pregnancy up to birth, for any reason.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Most healthcare systems won't cover elective procedures. Abortion isn't neccessary to save your life. We're not talking malignant tumor removal here people. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for the government to cover it. Now birth control, on the other hand, could possibly be viewed as preventative medicine.

Edited to add: I'm a pro-life vegan. I'm opposed to killing in general.









T really? Of all the US plans I know, IVF is covered. Circ is covered. Sterilization is covered. Birth control is an elective means of preventing pregnancy. This is all elective


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

A lot of US plans are actually starting to not cover birth control at all, but will cover Viagra because b/c is not seen as a health issue, whereas impotence is a medical condition.


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## Attached Mamma (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:

Of all the US plans I know, IVF is covered. Circ is covered. Sterilization is covered. Birth control is an elective means of preventing pregnancy. This is all elective
I live in Utah, and thanks to some hardworking intactivists Circumcision is no longer covered by the state. I'm not sure about abortion here, I'd like to know though. I definately think abortion should be paid for out of pocket, unless the mother's life is in danger.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I'm Pro-Choice and also Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (used to be Vegan and trying to move back in that direction).

I agree with Pikku Myy...I'm for choice...I dont want animals to have decisions made for them and I don't want humans to have decisions made for them.

Quote:

I agree. Also, I find it a little insulting when a person who pays money into a system that abuses and kills animals talks to me about when a life is lost.
Amen!

For me, vegetarianism isn't about being against killing animals. Humanely killing an animal for food is a whole lot different than what factory farms do. I'm a vegetarian because I will not partake in that horrible system. These animals are having their basic rights stripped away without a choice. I personally do not have a huge problem with bow-hunting--that's killing an animal but it's doing so humanely.

VeganMamma--could you explain more about vegetarianism as a feminist issue? Not sure if I missed your more elaborative post on it. This is very interesting to me!









Kylix


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## Knittin' in the Shade (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

I'm a vegetarian because I will not partake in that horrible system. These animals are having their basic rights stripped away without a choice. I personally do not have a huge problem with bow-hunting--that's killing an animal but it's doing so humanely.
But isn't it still taking away a basic right (ie-the right to life) from the animal? honestly, I'm not being snarky at all, I just don't see how humanely taking an animal's life is any different than what happens in a slaughterhouse? The end result is still a stripping of their basic rights, isn't it?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Pardon me if I'm incorrect, but isn't vegetarianism a feminist issue b/c the whole factory farm system was set up by men? Well, pretty much all systems have been set up and run by men. So there's no female input at all, therefor no feminine values in place and no respect for women either. A lot of what you see around you today was built on the backs of people of color and women. Pretty much everything. And there has been an incredibly unequal distribution of the benefits of those structures. So it's women and children sewing soccer balls for Nike in Indonesia, women in textile factories being payed $.16 an hour, women suffering and women toiling... It's the same with the meat industry. Women have little or nothing to do with the destruction of the Amazon to graze cattle, but indiginous people's lives are being destroyed as a result of it... I'm doing a terrible job of explaining this, and my figures are all estimates, not exact, and maybe the others see vegetarianism as a feminist issue for other reason. But the reason I see it as such is because it's men profitting on the backs of minorities and everyone pays the cost.


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## radish (Sep 19, 2002)

subbing to the thread. :0


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## Megan_Cherry (Feb 16, 2003)

OP here!

Thanks everyone for your posts. I did not really mean to start a debate. But this subject just tends to go that way. I was just cerious to see if being pro life was part of the vegan philosiphy. I understand that diet choices and abortion views are unrelated. But I also know that veganism is a lifestyle that goes beyond what you eat. My ceriosity led me here. I am too chicken to ask the real life vegans I know. Id hate to have a debate like this with my friends. I know I am not likley to change anyones mind so Id rather keep the peace.


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## lovemybaby (Jun 29, 2003)

I'm a vegan and couldn't resist jumping in and adding my .02

I've always been pro-choice. At first, because it seemed like a baby growing in a woman's body was really part of her, so it was her decision how to proceed with a pregnancy. As the years have gone by I have learned so much about how even from the very beginning a baby is a sentient being, not just an unfeeling mass of cells. I would never want to kill an unborn baby, it would be so awful to do that. But I know that if a girl or woman is unwillingly pregnant, and wants an abortion, she will try to get one, legal or not, or try to abort the baby herself. And as is well-known, illegal abortions tend to be much less safe than legal abortions, resulting in many more women's deaths. And abortions done on oneself are even worse, with women dying from ripping their uteri out with vacuum cleaners, and dying from hemorrhage and infections. Some will commit suicide rather than go through with a pregnancy. The unwillingly pregnant are VERY desperate women.

I had a friend in college whose boyfriend of several years dumped her suddenly and moved away. She was devastated. She was also newly pregnant. She never told him. She was Catholic and believed abortion was a sin. She decided to starve herself in order to miscarry. She didn't eat a thing for weeks. She miscarried in the shower.

My younger sister had a baby girl when she was 17. She didn't want to keep the baby. She thought abortion was wrong, and didn't want to marry the father of the baby either. She never told him she was pg. He found out after she gave birth and after 9 months obtained full custody of the baby, who had been in foster care. He was an abusive father. My niece deals with bulimia and terrible depression as an adult. Having a baby and giving it up is not such a great solution many times. Adopted children, for instance, have greater levels of emotional problems than biological children. I have an adopted cousin who longs to find his biological mother, and can't because of legal reasons. He is very messed up, did a lot of drugs, and has never been able to have a close, meaningful relationship. He's 50, lonely, and still unmarried.

My point here is that there's a lot to consider in deciding about abortion. It's not just a matter of saving babies' lives. More lives will be lost if it's made illegal: women's lives from botched abortions and suicides, and of course if the women die, so do their unborn babies. And giving up babies right after birth causes much anguish to those babies, and for all their lives. It's far from an ideal solution to say "just give them up for adoption."

I really wish more would be done to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place! More accessibility to birth control, more "facts of life" info for young teenagers, including information about how unprotected sex can create a new life, a baby that has feelings and needs. More should be done to stop the "macho" thing among boys and men of being proud to seduce girls and women. Men and boys need to be sensitized to the fact that sex is not just some kind of "sport." I wish virginity and abstinence were more honored and respected by men. More should be done to prevent incest and rape. And unmarried women and girls who go through pregnancy should not have to deal with the rejection of their families, and other forms of slights and criticism. It's hard enough to do what they're doing! These girls and women need support, both financial and emotional, and encouragement to stay with their babies who need them so very much. This is being done in Sweden, BTW, and almost no babies are being put up for adoption anymore. They stay with their mothers and the mothers receive support.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
And as far as pickett lines go, when I see folks outside planned parenthood picketing, I talk to them long enough to get their names and then go inside and make a donation to planned panthood on their names. .

I assume you would be offended if someone made a donation to a prolife group in your name?


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *warriorprincess*
I assume you would be offended if someone made a donation to a prolife group in your name?

Of course I would be offended, but I don't do it to be polite, I do it because for every jerk that stands out there, a woman seeking birth control will be intimidated away from it. Like I said before, Planned Parenthood does more to prevent unwanted pregnancies each year than all the prolife groups combined, so really all those prolifers outside should be thankful to me, since when they stand outside they are preventing young women from preventing pregnancy and thus increasing the risk that they will get pregnant and choose abortion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
I had a friend in college whose boyfriend of several years dumped her suddenly and moved away. She was devastated. She was also newly pregnant. She never told him. She was Catholic and believed abortion was a sin. She decided to starve herself in order to miscarry. She didn't eat a thing for weeks. She miscarried in the shower.

It's not like she can do anything about it now, but I think just about everyone would agree that is an abortion, since she caused the miscarry. All miscarriages are called abortion. A spontaneous abortion happens when you aren't expecting it, tyupically, you aren't wanting it to happen. When you cause a "spontaneous" abortion to happen, it isn't spontaneous, it is purposeful. Besdies all that, what your friend did was dangerous to herself, she could have had massive hemorrhage because she was malnourished at the time.

As far as vegetarianism being a feminist issue, annakiss got it for the most part. My stance also includes shock and anger at the chemicals that are put into meat that affect the reproductive systems of women. There is massive environmental destruction that causes more toxic chemicals to be found in women's bodies and breastmilk. The incredible waste that has food for hundreds of people being used to feed one cow, clean water for thousands of people being used to irrigate the food for the cow, to wash away it's feces, to water it and clean it when it's dead while women in developing nations are dying of waterbourne diseases and so are their babies is despicable to me.

Sorry it took so long, i gave up on the long answer awhile ago and avoided abortion threads for abit as I was getting worked up.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
I do it because for every jerk that stands out there,


I had previously found you to be a MDC member who was respectful, and I respected you despite disagreeing, I think that is lost now.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
Of course I would be offended, but I don't do it to be polite, I do it because for every jerk that stands out there,

.

Crazy thought-what if people on both sides of the abortion debate treated each other respectfully, and worked on the common ground of birth control and overall equality for women?
That will never happen while people on either side are acting so petty.
You could make the donation in your own name, if supporting PP was toyr whole goal.
It would be a lot like, if you were at a war protest, and some one took your name and gave a donation to Bush's re-election campaign in your name.


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## Attached Mamma (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:

And abortions done on oneself are even worse, with women dying from ripping their uteri out with vacuum cleaners, and dying from hemorrhage and infections. Some will commit suicide rather than go through with a pregnancy. The unwillingly pregnant are VERY desperate women.

So True!! Not to mention the risks for the unborn baby if the abortion doesn't actually take place. My grandfather's girlfriend got pregnant (mind you this was probably 50 some odd years ago), and she was not all their mentally, and did not want this baby, probably had something to do with the times and them not being married, anyway she tried to perform an abortion on herself with a coat hanger, and didn't succeed, and the baby was born, and ended up being severely mentally challenged. So it doesn't just risk the life of the woman, but the life of the unborn baby also, when abortion is illegal.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganmamma*
I do it because for every jerk that stands out there,

I'm talking about the people who yell things at frightened young women and who carry graphic signs and block entrances, not every pro-lifer out there. I stand by my statement, those guys are jerks. Obviously I don't think all pro-lifers are jerks since one of my best online buddies of all times is adamantly prolife and we are even able to discuss it in a loving way together.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm glad you cleared that up







.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Thank you veganmamma.
I myself think those protesters think us more moderate pro lifers look ridiculous, so I can see what you're saying.
However, i still stand that it is better to make donations in your name, or in the name of a pro choice freind.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"I had a friend in college whose boyfriend of several years dumped her suddenly and moved away. She was devastated. She was also newly pregnant. She never told him. She was Catholic and believed abortion was a sin. She decided to starve herself in order to miscarry."

But what your friend did was an abortion. She made the concious decision to end her baby's life. And why didn't she tell the father? Doesn't he have the right to know?


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