# Am I over or under reacting? 10YO, friends, HOA (Update post #59, HOA calls me back)



## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

I'll try to make this short- famous last words! (If this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it.)

Last week, DS (10 YO) was out playing with his friend and some other neighborhood kids. Later in the day, I saw his friend pushing a bike tire down the street. This struck me as goofy, but I was more concerned that he would hit someone's car, so I told him to cut it out. He did.

Anyway, a couple of days ago I get a packet in the mail from the home owner's association. In it is a nasty letter about certain children who were creating a "nuisance" last week. Included were 23 (!) pictures of the children in question. My ds is in exactly 2 pictures. In one, he is trying to fix his bike chain. He is on a common area of the neighborhood, but very close to his friend's back yard. In another, he is walking away from the other children and drinking a soda.

So, the charges according to the letter, are that the children (5 in all) were doing horrible things such as:

Riding their bikes in the street.
Sitting on the sidewalk in front of someone's driveway. (Not on the person's property.)
Riding their bikes in other people's driveway.
Riding their bikes on people's lawns. (No damage, not muddy, no tracks, just actually doing it.)
Stepping on people's lawns. (OMG!)
Leaving a skateboard out overnight in the common area. (I know for a fact this was not ours.)
Tossing that bike tire down the street.
"Fighting." (According to my ds, 2 of the kids did get into some kind of altercation at the end of the day, but it was short-lived.)
Sitting on an electrical box, a big green metal thing. (No one was doing any damage to it, although in one of the pictures it appears a child is jumping off of it. It's like 3 feet high.)
Putting cans on the bike tires so that it would make more noise (kind of like how we used to put cards in our tire spokes.)
Loitering.

Anyway, the letter goes on to say that I need to talk to my "children" and that the neighbors are now "watching" them. Further problems will lead to a "fining hearing."

So, apparently, my ds and these 4 other children were doing such horrible things that a neighbor felt the need to take pictures (of children sitting on the sidewalk!) and complain to the homeowner's association, but NEVER came to me (or the other parents) and said, "Hey, your kid is pissing me off." Would that have been so difficult?

Only 1 other child in the pictures is a friend of his that I know, the other 3 children are not anyone he regularly plays with. The rest of the pictures (over 20!) feature these 3 other children doing these things. DS is only in 2 pictures, and his friend is in like 4 pictures.

So, I talked to DS, and although he admits to tossing the bike tire "a couple of times", it doesn't appear that he was doing any of the other things. I also know he did the "can in the tire" thing, and I had him take it out so he wouldn't damage the bike. (I had actually planned on giving him some cards for his spokes, but I guess I shouldn't now.) I have told him before he needs to stay out of anyone's driveway/yard if they are not the friend he is playing with. He says he did, unless he was riding his bike on the sidewalk and needed to ride around people or things on the sidewalk.

However, other than tossing a bike tire around (which is not only rude, but dangerous IMO), and even though he didn't do most of these other things, I feel like the HOA is kind of going overboard on the other kids. I mean, kids were sitting on the sidewalk. They were riding their bikes. There was no complaint about them not MOVING if there were people or cars coming. It's VERY common for kids in our neighborhood to play in the street (hockey, etc) and then move for cars. (There are not that many cars in this part of the neighborhood.)

My DS is not perfect at all, and I have no problem with someone coming to me if he's out of line. But, I really don't see that these things are really bad, they seem like stuff that kids do all the time. Please give me some perspective here, are these things really bad? I mean, I don't care if kids sit on the sidewalk in front of my house. And, how does one define "loitering" if we live here and pay our HOA fees? I mean, I pay HOA fees to enjoy the common areas of our neighborhood, so does this mean that my DS can't sit and talk to his friend?

My DH left a long message for the HOA rep who sent us the packet, but she didn't call back. I know what neighbor took the pictures, and I'm so tempted to go and talk to them and ask them why they didn't come to me. I got mail about it, so obviously they know where I live. Also, at least if you count the pictures as "evidence", my DS wasn't really doing anything egregious. All the pictures are of the other children. Although, frankly, at this point I'm kind of pissed off _for_ them, too, and I don't even know them.

I'm really at a loss for what to do. I'm afraid to let my ds go out and play now, because I don't want people taking pictures of him if he does something they don't like and then I'll get FINED for it!

Opinions, please. Help!


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

Riding their bikes in the street. not a big deal unless they were NOT getting out of the way of vehicles.
Sitting on the sidewalk in front of someone's driveway. (Not on the person's property.) they shouldn't be sitting in the driveway, but again not a big deal unless someone was trying to get in with their vehicle
Riding their bikes in other people's driveway. they should not be doing this unless they live in that house.
Riding their bikes on people's lawns. (No damage, not muddy, no tracks, just actually doing it.)
Stepping on people's lawns. (OMG!) they should NOT be riding on or stepping on other people's lawn. It is tresspassing & can damage the grass(especially riding bikes on the lawn, even if it isn't muddy. It is common courtesy that 10yo's are old enough to know to NOT go on other people's lawns, that is why there are sidewalks
Leaving a skateboard out overnight in the common area. (I know for a fact this was not ours.) the letter was probably generic & exactly the same one sent to all 5 parents. What does the HOA bylaws say about things being left there?
Tossing that bike tire down the street. unless it was near miss hits on vehicles/people, not a big deal. It's a bike tire, not a car or tractor tire.lol
"Fighting." (According to my ds, 2 of the kids did get into some kind of altercation at the end of the day, but it was short-lived.) this is between the 2 kids & if necessary their parents.
Sitting on an electrical box, a big green metal thing. (No one was doing any damage to it, although in one of the pictures it appears a child is jumping off of it. It's like 3 feet high.) it's not the wisest place for them to be sitting & jumping off probably isn't the smartest thing either
Putting cans on the bike tires so that it would make more noise (kind of like how we used to put cards in our tire spokes.) is there a noise ordinance in the HOA bylaws? I'd say kids playing would make just as much if not more noise
Loitering. do the HOA bylaws define loitering
For most of these(other than the lawn & riding in driveways) I'd say the person who reported it is the nosey neighbor everyone probably hates and they should get over it.lol

I'd double check the HOA bylaws on some things, but other than that not worry about it.

I WOULD go to the person who complained & took the pictures and ask them why they are taking pictures of your kid(and the others) without parental permission and sending these pictures to other people. Throw some law back in their face. Depending on their response and my mood I may even question to them (even if I don't believe it) if they're pedophiles if they're spending that much time watching 5 10yo boys & taking photos of them.


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## pbjmama (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think any of that is a big deal. As you said, if there is a problem then speak up. If this person and said something to the children they probably would have complied. I agree with pp, check the bylaws AND I would have a big problem of someone taking pictures of my child and distributing. NOT okay, ever. I would let that be known for sure.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm with Carrie. I can see maybe getting uphappy about kids riding their bikes on my lawn, but then I would (*gasp*) go outside and ask if they could please not ride on the lawn. The rest is normal kid stuff, and none of it is worthy of the enormous amount of time and effort someone put into taking photos and mailing out letters.

I hate HOAs, though, and I'm so glad our neighborhood doesn't have one...


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I would be annoyed too. It is a sad testament to the lack of neighborliness and community. That said, I would carefully go over the HOA regulations to identify what is or is not permitted and talk to your son about the rules. I would write a letter back to the HOA stating your disappointment in how this was handled in such a threatening manner but state that you will address the rules with your son (and, of course, point out any issues that are covered by the rules). Though each of these are small infractions on their own, the kids should know not to trespass on another person's property (unless the person in question is blocking the sidewalk with a car or other object that forces the kids to go around it somehow, which inevitably would involve a driveway or lawn). Avoid the neighbor in question, but ask the HOA to address the issue of a man taking photos of young boys.

When we lived in a condo (rented) with common areas, most complaints were handled with notices under everybody's doors or in mailboxes to remind everybody of the rules and a few temporary notices hung around the common areas. No finger pointing, no photos, just a polite hint (for example, when we complained about dogs unleashed in the common areas and pooping on the lawn). Hints were taken and behaviors changed without threats, etc. Repeat offenders, of course, should receive warnings, but most issues can be handled without such threats/warnings of dire consequences.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

I. AM. FLOORED.








Kids being kids. This happens every day in my neighborhood. Kids come and shoot hoops at our house when my kids aren't around. My kids swing on neighbor's tire swing even if the kids aren't home. It's called community.
This is a story that Lenore Skenazy would eat up.
http://www.freerangekids.com
That being said, I would actually get together with the other parents and approach the HOA about the ridiculousness of these "charges" and see about creating some kid-friendly bylaws. How can one have community when kids are being watched for playing?


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Most of the complaints are over the top and reflect an intolerance of children and natural play. I would take heed of the complaints about trespass - riding or walking on someone else's lawn. Whether there is damage or not, it's important to respect the other person's feelings and rules about their property.

Personally, bike riding is a tricky issue for me when kids get to be about 10 y.o. I believe bicycles belong on the road, not the sidewalk. I make exceptions for young children. I think a 5 y.o. or even an 8 y.o. is tolerable riding on the sidewalk. By about age 12, they are probably okay on the road - or should be. 10 is a grey area for me. I'd probably roll my eyes if a bunch of 10 y.o.'s were cycling on the sidewalk around my house, but I wouldn't complain about it.

ETA: And yes, it's better to speak directly to the parents, rather than writing long complaint letters and compiling photos. Some people have nothing better to do.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

I mean REALLY? Those complaints sound downright RIDONKEROUS!!!! Do you live in a retirement community or something? Because SERIOUSLY?!! Kids sitting on the sidewalk? COME ON!?!?!?!! Does this person even HAVE KIDS?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
I WOULD go to the person who complained & took the pictures and ask them why they are taking pictures of your kid(and the others) without parental permission and sending these pictures to other people. Throw some law back in their face. Depending on their response and my mood I may even question to them (even if I don't believe it) if they're pedophiles if they're spending that much time watching 5 10yo boys & taking photos of them.

Really?


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

Some people just seem to think kids don't have a right to exist in public and resent their presence no matter what their behavior. Obviously kids need to run around and socialize and have fun. Of course it would behoove you to make sure your son does not repeat the actions that actually were inappropriate so that if a future complaint tis made it is entirely without merit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
So, the charges according to the letter, are that the children (5 in all) were doing horrible things such as:

*Riding their bikes in the street*.[snip]
I have told him before he needs to stay out of anyone's driveway/yard if they are not the friend he is playing with. He says he did, unless he was riding his bike on the sidewalk and needed to ride around people or things on the sidewalk.

They were riding their bikes. There was no complaint about them not MOVING if there were people or cars coming. It's VERY common for kids in our neighborhood to play in the street (hockey, etc) and then move for cars. (There are not that many cars in this part of the neighborhood.)


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ollyoxenfree* 
Personally, bike riding is a tricky issue for me when kids get to be about 10 y.o. I believe bicycles belong on the road, not the sidewalk. I make exceptions for young children. I think a 5 y.o. or even an 8 y.o. is tolerable riding on the sidewalk. By about age 12, they are probably okay on the road - or should be. 10 is a grey area for me. I'd probably roll my eyes if a bunch of 10 y.o.'s were cycling on the sidewalk around my house, but I wouldn't complain about it.

With exception for small children, the street is the best place for bike riding so that in itself is not a valid complaint. However, once you are on the street you do need to follow traffic laws. [Not saying that they were not. I wasn't there. But sometimes kids start riding around in circles. I would discourage that (maybe ok in cul-de-sacs.)]


> As an aside if you are riding down the street in a proper manner (alone, or single file group) you are not required to "move out of the way" for cars. In some instances it may be dangerous for you to take to the extreme right side of the lane and the vehicle coming from behind just has to wait until the other lane opens up so they have sufficient room for passing. [google "take the (whole) lane"] Although obviously it is the polite thing to get over and give them more space to pass when it is safe.


According to the NHTS 10yo is the age at which sidewalk riding is no longer necessary/appropriate. http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/bike/kidsandbikesafetyweb/

Obviously though, the age at which a child is mature enough to ride on the street will vary by the individual's personality and the level of training/guidance they have received. It's not like the magically acquire bike smarts on their birthday.
Personally, I would not let my child ride their bike out and about unsupervised if they were not ready for street riding. Also, if a kid is riding on the sidewalk I think they should be still pretty slow- like a speed a typical human can run at. Maybe 6/7mph maximum including downhill. Once they get to 10-12mph (which is Not that fast at all for a bike) it becomes pretty dangerous if there are pedestrians.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Thank you all for your replies.

I agree about staying off other people's lawns and driveways. I also agree I would be peeved if some kid was doing figure 8's in my lawn. However, I would go outside and talk to the child, and then his/her parents if necessary. My understanding from DS#1 is that he only rode up into someone's driveway or lawn to avoid an obstacle in the sidewalk. Of course, that may not be true and may not reflect what the other kids were doing. Also, I think @ 10 he SHOULD be riding his bike in the street, but the letter ACCUSES him of riding his bike in the street. Am I missing something here? Where should he ride his bike?

It would make no difference to me if some kids were sitting on the sidewalk in front of my house and/or driveway, as I don't *own* that part and as long as they moved if I needed them to. I certainly don't mind if a kid walked on my lawn for some reason. (The picture of the kid doing this "infraction" almost looks like he tripped and landed with his foot about 12 inches into the lawn from the sidewalk. The pictures look like they may be taken from a video, which is somehow even more disturbing.)

Also, as far as adding cans to the bikes so they sound more like motorbikes, I just cannot imagine that's loud enough to violate a noise ordinance. I'm hearing impaired, so I may not be the best judge, but it took me a few minutes to even realize that he had one on his bike. They were not very loud at all.

I've spoken to DS#1 again at length about avoiding other people's lawns and driveways, and *especially* this person now. My DS did something wrong in the past (playing with rocks meant for drainage), but the person who saw him doing it made him come to me and tell. I thanked her, he got the appropriate consequences, and case closed.

Not only does it show an intolerance to kids at play, but (and I hate to say it) I think there is a racial issue here as well. The 3 kids who were doing all the "worst" things are AA. I wonder if 5 white kids were out chilling if they would be accused of "loitering," IYKWIM.

However, I'm really worried about letting him out to play again.







For several reasons:

1) I'm really, really uncomfortable about the picture/video taking. Like, the feeling is getting worse as the days go on.

2) I got a letter in the mail telling me people were "watching" him. I'm afraid he'll do one stupid thing (as kids are wont to do), someone will rat him out and then we all get in trouble. Again.

3) I'm afraid he's going to be found guilty by association, again.

4) Mostly, I'm afraid of the "nuisance" & "loitering" issues. I've read the bylaws, and they are not clear. There are no guidelines that specify what loitering or a "nuisance" is. So, DS and his friend are riding bikes for a while, they sit on the sidewalk to take a break. Are they loitering? After how long? 5 minutes? An hour? Or they are playing a game and laughing/screaming, is that too loud and it's a "nuisance?" It's too vague, and I don't know how to fight that.

I'm still not sure what to do. We have a management company that sort of runs the HOA, but the board is made up of homeowners here. Should I complain to the person who took the pictures, the board, AND the management company?

Thanks again for your replies. I guess I just wanted to make sure I wasn't out in left field thinking this was over the top.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 

I'm still not sure what to do. We have a management company that sort of runs the HOA, but the board is made up of homeowners here. Should I complain to the person who took the pictures, the board, AND the management company?

I'd talk to the management company and get clarification about the loitering







issue. It's ludicrous to describe kids playing outside and hanging out around their own neighborhood as loitering.

Probably best to avoid taking it up with the picture taker. It's not against the law to take pictures in a publc place. This type of person would probably escalate the whole dispute if you engage with him/her.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

I should add that I find the idea of trumping up false accusations of pedopheila against the complainer completely repugnant, and I hope that anyone who does so will face the full extent of the law.


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## pacificbliss (Jun 17, 2006)

This is yet another reason why I hate HOAs. I would review the rules carefully, some of those seem ridiculous. Loitering? Umm, that's just hanging out in the neighborhood. Riding bikes in the street? Come on. I would take a letter to the HOA president with a point by point analysis of the charges. You can say, I agree that riding bikes on the lawn is not acceptable and this has been discussed with DS. I am guessing most of the things listed are not in the HOA rules so would point that out with a note that kids have to be able to play.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
I mean REALLY? Those complaints sound downright RIDONKEROUS!!!! Do you live in a retirement community or something? Because SERIOUSLY?!! Kids sitting on the sidewalk? COME ON!?!?!?!! Does this person even HAVE KIDS?

LOL No, I don't think they have kids. And while _I_ don't live in a retirement community, maybe this neighbor thinks they do!

I re-read all my HOA stuff. There is NO clause about loitering and while there is something vague about nuisance, it talks about having speakers or other noisy things outside of your house. You know, for when Bon Jovi comes and plays at my 4th of July BBQ.

I think it's better if I ignore the neighbor, and I know it's bad, but I so want to send my ex-husband (DS#1) father over there and have him ask why they were taking pictures! It's wrong, but he's all tattooed and pierced and intimidating looking. (No, I'm not going to do that.)


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I should add that I find the idea of trumping up false accusations of pedopheila against the complainer completely repugnant, and I hope that anyone who does so will face the full extent of the law.

Choli, I agree, and would never make an accusation like this just to get a reaction.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Riding their bikes in the street? Where are they supposed to ride them then?


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I should add that I find the idea of trumping up false accusations of pedopheila against the complainer completely repugnant, and I hope that anyone who does so will face the full extent of the law.

good gosh I neve said trump up false accusations against the complainer. I said go to the person who was taking the photos(aka the complainer) and ask them what they are doing taking photos/video of 10yo boys without parental permission. This person had no business taking long enough video/photos of these boys to get 23 pictures of them. how long is the video & how many other pictures does this person have of these boys? I didn't suggest it to get a reaction out of the picture taker but to show them that their own accusations are ridiculous.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Carrie, I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

I agree, it seems very weird to me that someone would spend that much time taking pictures/videos of these boys (my DS is 10, but they range from 9 to maybe 13).

But since they then mailed/e-mailed the pictures to a 3rd party, I think the neighbor really thought these kids were "outta control" and needed evidence.

I don't know. It's weird. And although I do feel somewhat violated for my DS, I understand that there really isn't any expectation of privacy if you are out in public. I just can't imagine taking videos/pictures of other people's children to try to get them in trouble. It seems so... off to me. However, maybe the neighbor (I have no idea if it's a man or woman or a couple) had complained about those "darn kids" before to the HOA (but not the, you know, _parents_) and they were told there was nothing the HOA could do without proof, and so that's why they did it.

I really hope so. Shudder.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I should add that I find the idea of trumping up false accusations of pedopheila against the complainer completely repugnant, and I hope that anyone who does so will face the full extent of the law.

I think discussing it would help emphasize the ludicrous nature of the complaints. It's ridiculous for this person to spend their time filing charges with an HOA against kids who are being kids.
It's doubly ridiculous/creepy for him/her to tape or photograph it. I'd be totally creeped out if a neighbor was taking pictures of my kids without their consent. It's not like this person said, "Say Cheese, boys!" It's a violation of privacy for him/her to do this.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Wow. Another reason I would never move anywhere with a HOA. I would move. These kids can't even be *kids* and it does sound either creepy and pedophile-like or racially biased, IMO. What a creepy situation. Can you bring up your concerns to whoever is in charge?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I would express concern to the HOA about someone who thinks it's ok to take picture of my children, no matter what reasons they have.

I also agree with Phathiu5:

Quote:

Riding their bikes in the street? Where are they supposed to ride them then?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Well, I think kids should always stay off of other people's property. I'd be mad if kids were riding their bikes in my yard or driveway.

But, the rest isn't even annoying. If you don't want kids playing in the common area, shouldn't you NOT buy a house near a common area???

The metal box they were jumping off of, is THERE FOR THE KIDS TO PLAY ON... it's like the electric company's gift to the children. Kids have been playing on those for millions of years. Again, unless it's in someone's yard, who cares?

I think it's extremely Unibomber-ish of someone to take pictures of the kids. Much less turn them in to the HOA. The camera owner should look into buying a home in a retirement community.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

BTW, I love HOA's. I'd never live in a neighborhood without one. I had a house in a non HOA neighborhood once, and the neighbors made it impossible to sell my home. It took five months in a sellers market, and I finally found a family that needed a big corner lot to park his tractor and backhoe, and since all the other neighbors had semi trucks and a ham radio station in their yards, he apparently felt right at home.

After that experience though, I am an HOA kinda girl.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Actually those metal boxes from the electrical company are not toys for the kids. They contain electrical equipment that allow easier access to the neighbourhood's power source. While they are generally safe, if they have been damaged in any way (and you may not see the damage) they pose a serious risk to people who get to close.

I would advise teaching your children to stay away from and off of them.

ETA: If you do notice any kind of damage, or the door appears to be open from warping or whatever, contact the power company immediately!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
I think discussing it would help emphasize the ludicrous nature of the complaints. It's ridiculous for this person to spend their time filing charges with an HOA against kids who are being kids.
It's doubly ridiculous/creepy for him/her to tape or photograph it. I'd be totally creeped out if a neighbor was taking pictures of my kids without their consent. It's not like this person said, "Say Cheese, boys!" It's a violation of privacy for him/her to do this.

When you are out in a public place, it is not a violation of privacy. That is the law.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
...

4) Mostly, I'm afraid of the "nuisance" & "loitering" issues. I've read the bylaws, and they are not clear. There are no guidelines that specify what loitering or a "nuisance" is. So, DS and his friend are riding bikes for a while, they sit on the sidewalk to take a break. Are they loitering? After how long? 5 minutes? An hour? Or they are playing a game and laughing/screaming, is that too loud and it's a "nuisance?" It's too vague, and I don't know how to fight that.

I'm still not sure what to do. We have a management company that sort of runs the HOA, but the board is made up of homeowners here. Should I complain to the person who took the pictures, the board, AND the management company?

Our HOA has faced similar complaints. Basically, the board is limited to enforcing its written bylaws (or amending them through the appropriate process). The management companies typically are limited to dues collection, vendor payment, etc, although of course they will forward on your correspondence to the board.

I would start with the person who sent the letter, who is probably someone on your HOA board. Seek clarification from them while referencing the relevant bylaws. Find out what their underlying interests are (a sidewalk clear for pedestrians, a quiet neighborhood, whatever) and then see if you can both agree to solutions. Good luck!


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## raksmama (Feb 20, 2005)

I would have flipped if this happened to us. I'd be totally creeped out by the pictures. I don't think you are over reacting at all!

Tossing bike tires could be very dangerous, (but you told your son to stop and he did). Leaving a skateboard out overnight in the common area could also be dangerous. The neighbours do have the right not to want anyone riding their bikes on, or stepping on their lawns.

However I think the neighbours could have just told the HOA or the parents about it. Taking pictures of the kids is totally out of line! The only way it might have been acceptable were if they had complained numerous times about it and no one believed them.

I think you are totally in your right to go to the neighbour in question and tell them that although you are sorry about the kids riding their bikes and stepping on their lawns, and you agree the kids should not have thrown a tire or left a skateboard out overnight, you will not accept someone taking pictures of your child or the other children and they should please never do it again and if anything ever comes up again they should go to you or the HOA directly.

I feel bad for you to have neighbours like that and I wish you the best of luck


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jalilah* 

I think you are totally in your right to go to the neighbour in question and tell them that although you are sorry about the kids riding their bikes and stepping on their lawns, and you agree the kids should not have thrown a tire or left a skateboard out overnight, you will not accept someone taking pictures of your child or the other children and they should please never do it again and if anything ever comes up again they should go to you or the HOA directly.

I feel bad for you to have neighbours like that and I wish you the best of luck

If your child is on my property, then I will photograph them. If you have a problem with that, teach your kid not to trespass.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
If your child is on my property, then I will photograph them. If you have a problem with that, teach your kid not to trespass.

This makes more sense to you than talking with the parents?
If someone was taking photos of my kids, I'd be extremely suspicious of them and their motives. If it continued after I told them to stop, I'd consider filing a harassment suit. If I didn't have a case, then I'd harass them right back - following them around and taking photos if necessary, just to irritate them.

I take photos of suspicious vehicles hanging out on my street - especially in front of abandoned homes. I don't take photos of people. I talk with people, and talk with the parents of children when necessary. I don't take photos of other peoples' kids unless those kids happen to be in the background of the photos I'm taking of my kids, or those kids are friends with my kids and I'm taking group shots. Otherwise, it's unacceptable. I don't care if it's technically legal. It's suspicious, and I wouldn't be afraid of insinuating anything whatsoever - or even outright accusing - in those circumstances. A lot of trouble could be averted with actual face-to-face communication with the supposed wrong-doers.

ETA: I'm another who would never choose to live in a HOA community. This is just one reason of many. I'd rather risk lowered property values and have the freedom to leave toys in my yard and let my kids play freely than have to deal with uptight control freaks.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
If your child is on my property, then I will photograph them. If you have a problem with that, teach your kid not to trespass.

Yeah. That kind of stuff pisses me off. It's MY property, stay the hell off it. Besides the fact that it's just plain rude and disrespectful, we live in an era where if your kid falls and scrapes his knee, I'll get sued for it.









It sounds great in theory to say "just come talk to me about it" but in reality most people are UAV when you tell them their precious child did something wrong (I have a neighbor like this, her grandson just can't do any wrong in her mind, it's utterly pointless to talk to her- I tried once and she threatened to call the cops on me even though I was standing in the street). And I can't blame the person for taking photos, because if he didn't, I can guarantee at least one of the parents would have flipped their lid and insisted their kid had nothing to do with it. Without photos it's a he said she said and while you and your kid might be honest, a lot of people aren't. And like choli said, it is NOT illegal to take pictures of people without their permission if they're on public property. Creepy? Maybe. But not illegal.

I agree it's probably better if you just ignore the complaining neighbor. Ask your HOA for clarification of the stuff you couldn't find explicitly stated in the HOA stuff (like loitering) and tell your kiddo to comply with the rest (like staying out of people's yards/driveways).

I live in a tiny little neighborhood (just 8 other families), but I still want to live in the middle of nowhere with *no* neighbors







My good friend lives across the street and even they annoy me sometimes (and I'm sure we annoy them sometimes, too!)


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
This makes more sense to you than talking with the parents?
If someone was taking photos of my kids, I'd be extremely suspicious of them and their motives. If it continued after I told them to stop, I'd consider filing a harassment suit. If I didn't have a case, then I'd harass them right back - following them around and taking photos if necessary, just to irritate them.

I take photos of suspicious vehicles hanging out on my street - especially in front of abandoned homes. I don't take photos of people. I talk with people, and talk with the parents of children when necessary. I don't take photos of other peoples' kids unless those kids happen to be in the background of the photos I'm taking of my kids, or those kids are friends with my kids and I'm taking group shots. Otherwise, it's unacceptable. I don't care if it's technically legal. It's suspicious, and I wouldn't be afraid of insinuating anything whatsoever - or even outright accusing - in those circumstances. A lot of trouble could be averted with actual face-to-face communication with the supposed wrong-doers.

ETA: I'm another who would never choose to live in a HOA community. This is just one reason of many. I'd rather risk lowered property values and have the freedom to leave toys in my yard and let my kids play freely than have to deal with uptight control freaks.

If my kids were trespassing, I'd want to be aware of it, and would have no problem with being given proof of it. I have no problems with pictures being taken of wrongdoing. If there is nothing being done that is wrong, why would I have a problem with it? It's not like the camera is stealing my kids lives.


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## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Do unto others, I say. By all means, complain to the HOA if you must, but the photographs are over the top. These are children. Why not just send out a general reminder instead of going all crazy with photographs and threats?


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
If your child is on my property, then I will photograph them. If you have a problem with that, teach your kid not to trespass.

Just to clarify, in the 2 (out of 23 pictures sent to me) pictures of my ds, he was not on anyone's property. He was in a common area. We didn't leave any equipment out overnight. My DS knows not to wander onto people's property. Also, we live in cluster homes, which are basically townhomes that do not share a common wall. Instead, we all have outside storage units that share a common wall. So, we have small, closely-spaced yards. It's entirely possible, while distracted and playing, that my ds could have gone onto someone's property, especially one cojoining a common area. He says when he realizes it, he gets off right away. Additionally, my ds would get off someone's yard if he was instructed to. But, we're not talking homesteads here where you kind of have to go out of your way to go onto someone's property.

In the other 21 pictures, 2 children (not mine) were sitting on the sidewalk in front of someone's driveway. The sidewalk is not the homeowners. There was never any complaint of those kids not moving, and it appears they were never told to move. I guess I just wouldn't care if someone was sitting on the sidewalk in front of my driveway. I don't own the sidewalk. Now, if I needed them to move, and they didn't it's a different story, but otherwise, who were they bothering? And the child who looked like he tripped and landed 6 inches on the yard. I don't see that as tresspassing as much as, well, tripping.

I don't want my DS to be a nuisance to anyone, obviously. I know my ds is not perfect. And, while I still think the pictures are creepy, I could understand complaining to the HOA if they had come to me and I blew them off. _But this neighbor never came to me._ I want DS to be able to play. He can legally ride his bike in the street. Blocking traffic is bad, but they didn't do that. Putting cans in the bike tires is not a federal offense, and kids have been doing stuff like that for decades, like putting playing cards in the tires.

I'm worried about approaching the homeowner who did this. I'm worried that he'll keep taking videos of my ds. What if he's riding, in the street as he supposed to do, and he falls down? Well, take a still from the video (like these pictures appear to be) and then the HOA gets a complaint that my child is "laying in the street." YKWIM? I'm worried if I go to him, he'll make it worse. My poor kid practically on lockdown as it is.

What do you think?


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## raksmama (Feb 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
I'm worried about approaching the homeowner who did this. I'm worried that he'll keep taking videos of my ds. What if he's riding, in the street as he supposed to do, and he falls down? Well, take a still from the video (like these pictures appear to be) and then the HOA gets a complaint that my child is "laying in the street." YKWIM? I'm worried if I go to him, he'll make it worse. My poor kid practically on lockdown as it is. What do you think?

I thought about this again and although in my first post I suggested talking to the neighbour who took the pictures, I have reconsidered. Maybe it would be better to talk to the HOA first explaining just what you explained in your post. If you do talk to the neighbour, maybe go with your Dh or XDH.

Honestly I would find it disturbing to have a neighbour like that. We are fortunate to live in neighbourhood where our next door neighbours actually tell the kids that that if they are playing ball in the street and the ball accidentally goes in their yard, they can go in and get it out without asking! So I am shocked when read about things like this well as the reaction of some of the posters!

What about the parents of the other kids? Do you know them? If so how did they react?

I also reread your other post where you mention that race could play a role and that several of the kids were AA. It sounds that could definitely play a role.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Yeah. That kind of stuff pisses me off. It's MY property, stay the hell off it. Besides the fact that it's just plain rude and disrespectful, we live in an era where if your kid falls and scrapes his knee, I'll get sued for it.










This is exactly how I feel. It's not my job to keep your kid safe. So, your kid shouldn't be on my property.

It's extremely rude and disrespectful to ride their bikes in my yard or driveway. My husband is very anal about our yard. He works in our yard at least twice a week. He rakes the gravel next to the driveway. SO, we really don't want other people's kids on our gravel.... even though it technically isn't hurting it... it is leaving tire marks all over that my husband will have to go rake.

My uncle would actually go chase kids out of his yard with a rifle. As kids, we weren't EVER allowed to walk on his living room rug. If we accidentally did, he'd get the vaccum out and fix the footprints in his perfect carpet. He was that anal....... somehow, I married the same kind of man. (didn't know it until it was too late)


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
If your child is on my property, then I will photograph them. If you have a problem with that, teach your kid not to trespass.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Yeah. That kind of stuff pisses me off. It's MY property, stay the hell off it. Besides the fact that it's just plain rude and disrespectful, we live in an era where if your kid falls and scrapes his knee, I'll get sued for it.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
This is exactly how I feel. It's not my job to keep your kid safe. So, your kid shouldn't be on my property.









I think that y'all need to read, or re-read, the OP's posts. Her kid was not trespassing, and the photos were not of any specific wrongdoing on her DS's part. Geez.

The picture-taking creeps me waaaay out. I am not a shrinking violet, though, and I likely would stand outside his house on a pubic sidewalk with a camera and take pictures of his house, and take pictures of him when he takes out the trash, checks the mail, mows his lawn, etc. (I know we don't know it's a "him", just didn't want to say him/her, she/he, his/her a million times).

Yes, the OP's DS was in a public place, but people can have a reasonable expectation of privacy even in public places. There is a fine line between photography and surveillance, and since the HOA said that they were "watching" him and that video was taken too, I think this borders on surveillance especially since this monitoring appears to be endorsed by the HOA rather than the rogue actions of an individual. I think it's completely reasonable for people to want to exist in public without having their actions recorded covertly.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
This is exactly how I feel. It's not my job to keep your kid safe. So, your kid shouldn't be on my property.

It's extremely rude and disrespectful to ride their bikes in my yard or driveway. My husband is very anal about our yard. He works in our yard at least twice a week. He rakes the gravel next to the driveway. SO, we really don't want other people's kids on our gravel.... even though it technically isn't hurting it... it is leaving tire marks all over that my husband will have to go rake.

My uncle would actually go chase kids out of his yard with a rifle. As kids, we weren't EVER allowed to walk on his living room rug. If we accidentally did, he'd get the vaccum out and fix the footprints in his perfect carpet. He was that anal....... somehow, I married the same kind of man. (didn't know it until it was too late)

LOL We all find out when it's too late!

I think everyone pretty much agrees that the children should stay off of people's property. Certainly no argument there.

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around, is with the exception of:

Going onto people's property (on purpose, or on accident),
Tossing that (stupid!) bike tire back and forth (in which they meant no harm, they were just being kids, but they def needed to stop)
His friend leaving his skateboard/bike in the common area, and
Playing near the electrical box

I don't understand the rest of the complaints. They were sitting on the sidewalk? Riding their bikes? Using cans as toys? Where's the line between playing and my neighbor's annoyance (if no one is on his property and no one is threatening his body or property)? He has no children. How come he gets to decide how my DS can play? Or am I reading too much into this? Should I do out and just monitor my ds every time he plays? I'm not sure that's going to work, either, because I would allow him to do things I construe as play, but my neighbor construes as a nusiance. Who decides? And, my ds would be mortified if I had to "play" with him and his friends!

It just seems so over the top. And I really wish the neighbor had just come to me, about the things that were actually a problem, and I would have disciplined my own son. Creepy, threatening letters in the mail with pictures of my ds doing, well, nothing wrong just piss me off. If your going to "prove" your case with "evidence", then at least have some!

I know his friend's mother got a letter, too, but I haven't had a chance to talk to her about it. The 3 other children that my ds doesn't usually play with live in another area of the neighborhood and I don't know them. Although the pictures show these 3 kids riding their bikes in someone's lawn, touching someone's lawn with his foot, and throwing the bike tire, I have a feeling that they may not have gotten a letter. At the bottom of my threat- ahem, I mean letter, it asks me to help identify the children if they are not mine.

Yeah, um, ok. Not sure how I feel about that.

I agree w/ the pp who said some people just don't think children should ever be around.









(And, this is totally ot and a side note and me being bitchy, but this "neighbor" had some kind of water leakage thing coming out of his house, down his yard, onto the sidewalk and street, for a couple of MONTHS before he did anything about it. The water was green and gross, and I'm sure not safe. I remember having to walk INTO the street everyday to get around it. Yuck! But, of course, these kids are the downfall of the neighborhood! ARGGHHHHH! I should've complained about the sewage thing! And, yes, I realize that this may have been a water company thing and not his fault, but I'm just in a bad mood!)


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
I think everyone pretty much agrees that the children should stay off of people's property. Certainly no argument there.

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around, is with the exception of:

Going onto people's property (on purpose, or on accident),
Tossing that (stupid!) bike tire back and forth (in which they meant no harm, they were just being kids, but they def needed to stop)
His friend leaving his skateboard/bike in the common area, and
Playing near the electrical box

Except for being on someone's property... None of it should have been a problem. Even the skateboard in the common area. If you leave an expensive toy out in the park, it's someone elses new expensive toy. The only person who suffers is the original owner of the skateboard. Plus... have you ever left a wooden skateboard out overnight? The sprinklers run, and the skateboard gets damaged.

The fact that you have a neighbor who is so uptight that just the kids BEING outside bothers this person is weird.

The only reason they should be upset is possibly if they have something serious going on at home. Maybe they have a spouse that is very sick, or they themselves have been sick. Maybe the noise is really a huge deal to them. There could be something happening that has nothing to do with your kids.... it's just that it's the kids that are annoying them.

Try to understand that they might actually be having a very hard year. (Or they are just jerks) Maybe the kids would be better off hanging out at the end of the street for a little while??? I'd be really uncomfortable with a random neighbor taking pictures of my kids, and being all angry at them.

Sometimes, these people are REALLLLY stressed out for some reason. They are occasionally the ones who go too far. You always hear about them on the news after they've done something horrible. They always get to plead "by reasons of insanity" afterwards. It's just the kind of place the kids should avoid.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Except for being on someone's property... None of it should have been a problem.

The fact that you have a neighbor who is so uptight that just the kids BEING outside bothers this person is weird.

The only reason they should be upset is possibly if they have something serious going on at home. Maybe they have a spouse that is very sick, or they themselves have been sick. Maybe the noise is really a huge deal to them. There could be something happening that has nothing to do with your kids.... it's just that it's the kids that are annoying them.

Try to understand that they might actually be having a very hard year. (Or they are just jerks) Maybe the kids would be better off hanging out at the end of the street for a little while??? I'd be really uncomfortable with a random neighbor taking pictures of my kids, and being all angry at them.

Sometimes, these people are REALLLLY stressed out for some reason. They are occasionally the ones who go too far. You always hear about them on the news after they've done something horrible. They always get to plead "by reasons of insanity" afterwards. It's just the kind of place the kids should avoid.

I don't really know anything about this neighbor. My ds says it's a man, and that no children live there. I have never seen a car in his driveway (maybe he just keeps it in the garage), and frankly thought the house was empty for a long time.

I told DS he would have to stay by our house. It's a small sub-division (of a very large neighborhood), and unfortunately his friend's backyard is directly across the street from this guy's house. So, if his friend can't come over here to play, then he won't really have anyone to play with, since I can't have him going over there now.









Well, I think I'm going to leave the neighbor alone. (Really would like to have angry, intimidating ex-husband come and talk to him, but... sigh... that won't help.







) I'm hearing impaired, and it's hard for me to use the phone, but I'll have dh call the HOA rep (the one who sent the letter, who works for the management company and does NOT live here) _again_ and hopefully she'll call back. She's going to get to explain to us how my ds is supposed to play. That should go well. Then I'll take it from there.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 







I think that y'all need to read, or re-read, the OP's posts. Her kid was not trespassing, and the photos were not of any specific wrongdoing on her DS's part. Geez.

The picture-taking creeps me waaaay out. I am not a shrinking violet, though, and I likely would stand outside his house on a pubic sidewalk with a camera and take pictures of his house, and take pictures of him when he takes out the trash, checks the mail, mows his lawn, etc. (I know we don't know it's a "him", just didn't want to say him/her, she/he, his/her a million times).

Yes, the OP's DS was in a public place, but people can have a reasonable expectation of privacy even in public places. There is a fine line between photography and surveillance, and since the HOA said that they were "watching" him and that video was taken too, I think this borders on surveillance especially since this monitoring appears to be endorsed by the HOA rather than the rogue actions of an individual. I think it's completely reasonable for people to want to exist in public without having their actions recorded covertly.

(I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, sorry!)

Ramama, what is the difference between photography and surveillance? Is it just wrong if it's covert? Like, if this man (according to ds, a man lives there) stands on the sidewalk recording them, is it ok? Or is that harrassement? I kind of think the idea that a person could be recording/photographing everything you do outside with the _anticipation_ you'll do something is wrong. Because that's what the letter said, that he's "being watched."

Of course, if my DS was trampeling all over his property or damaging his property, or damaging common area property, and he wanted evidene, I think that would be different.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
I don't really know anything about this neighbor. My ds says it's a man, and that no children live there. I have never seen a car in his driveway (maybe he just keeps it in the garage), and frankly thought the house was empty for a long time.

I told DS he would have to stay by our house. It's a small sub-division (of a very large neighborhood), and unfortunately his friend's backyard is directly across the street from this guy's house. So, if his friend can't come over here to play, then he won't really have anyone to play with, since I can't have him going over there now.









Well, I think I'm going to leave the neighbor alone. (Really would like to have angry, intimidating ex-husband come and talk to him, but... sigh... that won't help.







) I'm hearing impaired, and it's hard for me to use the phone, but I'll have dh call the HOA rep (the one who sent the letter, who works for the management company and does NOT live here) _again_ and hopefully she'll call back. She's going to get to explain to us how my ds is supposed to play. That should go well. Then I'll take it from there.

I wouldn't make my kids stay by our house because of that letter. What, your DS should be under house arrest because if he goes outside he is "loitering"? I'd just tell him to stay off other people's property, as you have already, and to be mindful not to be a nuisance.

My guess is that your neighbor was ticked to see kids from a different part of the neighborhood playing, and that was what sent him off. I wouldn't feel any obligation to help him to "identify" those kids - it's not a gated community, right?

I just don't understand the reactions to having photoghraphs taken, it wouldn't bother me at all.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
Well, I think I'm going to leave the neighbor alone. (Really would like to have angry, intimidating ex-husband come and talk to him, but... sigh... that won't help.







) I'm hearing impaired, and it's hard for me to use the phone, but I'll have dh call the HOA rep (the one who sent the letter, who works for the management company and does NOT live here) _again_ and hopefully she'll call back. She's going to get to explain to us how my ds is supposed to play. That should go well. Then I'll take it from there.

Don't forget. This HOA is supposed to protect you and your kids. They are part of the community too. It's not OK to harass you or your kids.

They need to understand everything... not just some cranky hermit's version of the story.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
(I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, sorry!)

Ramama, what is the difference between photography and surveillance? Is it just wrong if it's covert? Like, if this man (according to ds, a man lives there) stands on the sidewalk recording them, is it ok? Or is that harrassement? I kind of think the idea that a person could be recording/photographing everything you do outside with the _anticipation_ you'll do something is wrong. Because that's what the letter said, that he's "being watched."

Of course, if my DS was trampeling all over his property or damaging his property, or damaging common area property, and he wanted evidene, I think that would be different.

I was just trying to explain a gut feeling that this is just different from simple photography, that it's something _else_ that I can't quite describe. I don't know the legal stuff. But, when you go into a store, you can assume that employees will be watching you, or at least aware of you, but if they have video cameras, they need to post a sign saying so. It's just _different_ to me that they are "watching" your son and take paparazzi-style photographs of him from a hidden location, and video too, then print and distribute the photographs without your permission.

What your neighbor did is just creepy, and _wrong_, and totally outside the expected behavior of a presumably rational adult. To me, really, this all borders on stalking.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
Ramama, what is the difference between photography and surveillance? Is it just wrong if it's covert? Like, if this man (according to ds, a man lives there) stands on the sidewalk recording them, is it ok? Or is that harrassement? .

To me, it just seems like an overreaction. He feels justified in his overreaction.... and that can be scary. If the kids weren't really doing anything unusual, but, he feels like they were, he might also feel justified in hurting someone who is bothering him.

If he's disgruntled, it's best just to stay away from him.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 

I just don't understand the reactions to having photoghraphs taken, it wouldn't bother me at all.

Choli,

I think last week I would have completely agreed with you. But then I got pictures in the mail of my ds fixing a bike chain and drinking a soda, along with a threatening (and official) letter about how he's "being watched," and I cannot even put into words how uncomfortable it makes me feel. I have a knot in my chest every time he goes out now.

Even the pictures of the children commiting the acts in the complaint make me completely uncomfortable.

The other children live a couple of streets over. And, no, I'm not going to go all Nancy Drew and hunt them down for this dude and the HOA.

And I would really like to thank everybody who has participated in this thread with me. It's good to have some other perspectives!


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.

If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you. If you mess up my yard royally, you AND your parents will hear about it directly from me. Want to pick a flower from my garden for your mom? You know you're welcome, I've known you all your life and you've been picking flowers out of my yard since you were able to walk. I make sure to plant extras, just for you kids.

It's so sad that some neighborhoods are so unwelcoming. My neighborhood may be poor and dumpy, but I know all the kids, they know me, and we all keep a gentle eye out on one another. If someone doesn't mow their lawn, it's their issue (unless of course they *can't*, and then your neighbor will likely mow it). My neighbor has chickens, ducks, and two broken down cars in his yard. The ducks are hilarious, they are like the neighborhood laugh track. The cars are playground equipment for the neighborhood kids.

Thank god we don't have a tyrannical HOA, taking pictures and keeping those damn kids in line. How dare those kids think they can be outside of their pen, I mean lawn. You must be a terrible parent, letting that child off it's leash like that. I hope you beat him and sent him to bed without supper for his transgressions. That'll learn him.


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## Sarah W (Feb 9, 2008)

I think that most of the things were ridiculous, with the exception of being in other people's lawns. We paid $2k for our front lawn to be landscaped and I don't want other people running around on it.

I think that for the most part, any one of the other things would have been a minor nuisance, but since all of the things were done in the span of one afternoon it was more of an issue.

As for taking pics, I don't see it as being creepy. He had an issue (and an overrreaction) but had he not had pics, there would have been a bunch of "that isn't MY child!". I'm not saying by you, but how else could he identify them to complain if he didn't know who they were?


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.

If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you. If you mess up my yard royally, you AND your parents will hear about it directly from me. Want to pick a flower from my garden for your mom? You know you're welcome, I've known you all your life and you've been picking flowers out of my yard since you were able to walk. I make sure to plant extras, just for you kids.

It's so sad that some neighborhoods are so unwelcoming. My neighborhood may be poor and dumpy, but I know all the kids, they know me, and we all keep a gentle eye out on one another. If someone doesn't mow their lawn, it's their issue (unless of course they *can't*, and then your neighbor will likely mow it). My neighbor has chickens, ducks, and two broken down cars in his yard. The ducks are hilarious, they are like the neighborhood laugh track. The cars are playground equipment for the neighborhood kids.

Thank god we don't have a tyrannical HOA, taking pictures and keeping those damn kids in line. How dare those kids think they can be outside of their pen, I mean lawn. You must be a terrible parent, letting that child off it's leash like that. I hope you beat him and sent him to bed without supper for his transgressions. That'll learn him.

Well said.
This is exactly how it is in my neighborhood and I LOVE it. I wouldn't use the term poor and dumpy but we are not in one of the "coveted neighborhoods" in our town. I live in a 1964 ranch that needs improvements but I also have the best neighbors. Lots of kids. Parents know eachother and the kids. We also have our beloved neighborhood crumudgeon who yells at the kids when he sees them do something dangerous and they listen. He also gives out full sized candy bars at Halloween!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarah W* 
As for taking pics, I don't see it as being creepy. He had an issue (and an overrreaction) but had he not had pics, there would have been a bunch of "that isn't MY child!". I'm not saying by you, but how else could he identify them to complain if he didn't know who they were?

I think it's totally creepy. My 11 year old DD runs around with her friends from the neighborhood and it would completely freak me out if some man took pictures of them. It's creepy!

I don't know what I would do, but I think the neighbor is a creep.

Besdies, it is VERY easy to take a photo, play around with it in photoshop, and make it a different photo. I think it is weird and rude to take photos of children that you don't know.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Our HOA requests pictures when reporting a violation involving a neighbor whenever possible so that they can see exactly what happened and that it isn't a baseless accusation made by a disgruntled neighbor.

As far as the pictures, since it is obvious that they were taken to prove his point that the kids were playing somewhere he felt they should not have been they wouldn't bother me in so far as being inappropriate, it might annoy me if they were of my kids just playing like normal kids do but I would not find the pictures themselves inappropriate or violating.


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## raksmama (Feb 20, 2005)

Sounds like a neighborhood that I'd like!



lorijds said:


> Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.
> If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you. If you mess up my yard royally, you AND your parents will hear about it directly from me. Want to pick a flower from my garden for your mom? You know you're welcome, I've known you all your life and you've been picking flowers out of my yard since you were able to walk. I make sure to plant extras, just for you kids.
> It's so sad that some neighborhoods are so unwelcoming. My neighborhood may be poor and dumpy, but I know all the kids, they know me, and we all keep a gentle eye out on one another. If someone doesn't mow their lawn, it's their issue (unless of course they *can't*, and then your neighbor will likely mow it). My neighbor has chickens, ducks, and two broken down cars in his yard. The ducks are hilarious, they are like the neighborhood laugh track. The cars are playground equipment for the neighborhood kids.
> QUOTE]


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## raksmama (Feb 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Our HOA requests pictures when reporting a violation involving a neighbor whenever possible so that they can see exactly what happened and that it isn't a baseless accusation made by a disgruntled neighbor.
As far as the pictures, since it is obvious that they were taken to prove his point that the kids were playing somewhere he felt they should not have been they wouldn't bother me in so far as being inappropriate, it might annoy me if they were of my kids just playing like normal kids do but I would not find the pictures themselves inappropriate or violating.

If this neighbour had already told the kids not to go in his yard and on his lawn,
If he had already complained first to the OP and that had not worked and he complained to the HOA and no one then believed him then, and only then it might have been appropriate.
The OP's son was not even doing any of the things the neighbour has complaining about and she has to live across the street from this neighbour. I think he, the neighbour needs to have it made known to him that he should not take any more pictures of her son.


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## feest (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Actually those metal boxes from the electrical company are not toys for the kids. They contain electrical equipment that allow easier access to the neighbourhood's power source. While they are generally safe, if they have been damaged in any way (and you may not see the damage) they pose a serious risk to people who get to close.

I would advise teaching your children to stay away from and off of them.

ETA: If you do notice any kind of damage, or the door appears to be open from warping or whatever, contact the power company immediately!

I went to school with a boy who lost both arms almost up the the elbows when he was 4-5 because of one of those boxes. The men who were working on it left it open while they went to lunch and he wandered over and touched something inside and it burned his arms so bad they couldn't save them. He was lucky to have lived at all.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
I think it's totally creepy. My 11 year old DD runs around with her friends from the neighborhood and it would completely freak me out if some man took pictures of them. It's creepy!

I don't know what I would do, but I think the neighbor is a creep.

Besdies, it is VERY easy to take a photo, play around with it in photoshop, and make it a different photo. I think it is weird and rude to take photos of children that you don't know.

Taking pictures of someone else kids specifically, without permission is always creepy in my book. No matter what your purpose. It just gives me a really icky feeling when people do that.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds* 
Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.

I want to live where you live!

OP, I think you should let your son play where he usually does, except being more careful to stay off Mr. Grumpypants' property. Making your son stay in your yard only is validating his baseless complaint. Does the HOA have meetings? I would be sure to attend the next one and give them a piece of my mind!


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## Proxi (Mar 14, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharon, RN* 
Riding their bikes in the street.
Sitting on the sidewalk in front of someone's driveway. (Not on the person's property.)
Riding their bikes in other people's driveway.
Riding their bikes on people's lawns. (No damage, not muddy, no tracks, just actually doing it.)
Stepping on people's lawns. (OMG!)
Leaving a skateboard out overnight in the common area. (I know for a fact this was not ours.)
Tossing that bike tire down the street.
"Fighting." (According to my ds, 2 of the kids did get into some kind of altercation at the end of the day, but it was short-lived.)
Sitting on an electrical box, a big green metal thing. (No one was doing any damage to it, although in one of the pictures it appears a child is jumping off of it. It's like 3 feet high.)
Putting cans on the bike tires so that it would make more noise (kind of like how we used to put cards in our tire spokes.)
Loitering.

The ones in red would be something I would complain about. However, I am pretty much a stickler about my personal property and I would definitely complain about these.
The ones in dark orange are ones that would annoy me but I wouldn't complain to the HOA about them.
In fact, even the ones in red I wouldn't complain to the HOA about, I would at least attempt to talk to the people first, unless I thought they would be less than receptive to the situation.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

OP, I don't think you should confront the complainer.

A few questions:
Are the children sitting on the sidewalk in front of the complainers house?
Is it the complainers yard they allegedly touched?

If the answer is no to either/both I don't see where he has a leg to stand on. Seriously, because if a neighborhood child walks on my lawn I don't care. I mean, I don't want kids I don't know camping out on our lawn or anything, but if they're running down the sidewalk and run through the lawn, big deal.

I would do the following:
1) Contact the HOA in writing asking for a clarification of rules regarding the common areas. Additionally, since in the previous mail they indicated the kids could not ride bikes on sidewalks OR streets does that mean they would prefer they ride bikes only on the common area grass?








2) Contact your local police dept and ask about:
a) sitting on sidewalks
b) riding bikes in streets
c) extended videoing of children w/out parental permission

I would need to know the responses before I would know what to do from there.

I would tell my children to not go near the complainer and if the individual tried to talk to them or otherwise contact them to come immediately home and get me.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

You know, this thing just keeps getting weirder!

The HOA rep called back and left a message on my voicemail. She's rushing and rambling, but from what I can make out this is what she said:

"Maybe it's the company your child is keeping." (I think she means the AA kids, but I could be wrong.)

"The homeowner took pictures and complained and wanted the (HOA) board to send a letter."

"He had to take pictures because everyone _always_ says it's not my kid." [this is not true for me, as, well, _no one bothered to tell me anything._ Maybe she's referring to the other children, the ones who seem to be actually doing what this guy was complaining about.]

"There's been vandalizing going on in the neighborhood, and *somebody's* kid is doing it, and if your child isn't doing anything wrong, further evidence will show this. So, do talk to your child."

"You can write a letter back to the Board if you want."

WTH? We've gone from "They were playing with a bike tire" to "Your kid is probably vandalizing the neighborhood? And, even if he's not, he's guilty until proven innocent?"

Is it just me, or is this getting even more off the wall?

Thanks for the input so far. For now, the pool just opened, so I take my ds there almost everyday. That way, I can stay with him. I have let him go out a couple of times, and stressed over and over and OVER again that he cannot go anywhere near this guy's house. But I keep going outside to monitor everything, just in case.

Poor guy.

This really sucks.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Um, wow. It sounds like they already have your son pegged as a trouble maker and are just waiting for him to "screw up".

I would contact them again and tell them if that is the strongest evidence they have that your son is causing trouble then maybe they need to re-think their suspicions.


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## Sharon RN (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Um, wow. It sounds like they already have your son pegged as a trouble maker and are just waiting for him to "screw up".

I would contact them again and tell them if that is the strongest evidence they have that your son is causing trouble then maybe they need to re-think their suspicions.

LOL Yeah. Or, maybe, they are sure those "other" kids are doing it, and the "evidence" (more pictures??) will show them doing it, and not ds. Because, you know, those "other" kids are "different."

Goodness, I'm getting all pissed off thinking about this again.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think the lady is right about talking to your son to make sure he isn't trespassing and to try to find out if he is part of the group that is vandalizing if you can do this without sounding like you are accusing him. Sometimes kids this age get caught up with wanting to be cool and they do things that they normally wouldn't do. It sounds like they weren't caught doing things that are too serious, but some of the disregard for other people's property would worry me if it was combined with fighting and possible vandalism. I know that it is horrible to have someone tell you your kid might not be behaving in the way you have taught them to behave, but kids really do experiment with what they can do when they are away from you sometimes. When I was this age I had a friend who was just a bad combination. We got into all kinds of trouble together that we would never think about doing on our own.

I would also be worried about someone taking photos of my kid without my permission, but the law probably doesn't protect your kid if he is out in public. In our city if you are where other people can see you there is nothing to protect you against being photographed.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Have you had a chance to talk much to the other parents about what's going on? What do they think about it?


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

In a lot of ways, the neighbor is between a rock and a hard place. No pictures - no proof. Pictures - he's creepy and possibly a pedophile. What I would take away from the pictures would be that, while my kid may not be doing anything wrong, he's hanging out with kids who are at least flirting with being a problem. And that's something I would address with him - who are these other kids, how does he know them, and how is it he's ended up playing/hanging with them?

Sitting on a sidewalk in front of a driveway. Am I the only one who has come home ti find kids doing just that and refusing to move? Or else taking their sweet time? Or getting ready to go out, and there they are! Looking at you like you have three heads when you ask them to get out of the way, please.

Cans in the bike spokes. No problem, for the most part. Until the cans come flying off and end up on my lawn, for me to go out and pick up. Why should I pick up someone else's trash?

I would suspect this neighbor has had more than his share of problems with kids and his property - and has had enough. Not sure if I can blame him.

I also wouldn't restrict my kid from going to his friend's, but I would tell him that I'd prefer if he didn't hang with the other kids coming from elsewhere.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

While some of the "infractions" may be valid and kids need to be reminded not to go on other people's lawns without their permission, etc., none of these incidents demonstrate any association with vandalism - just kids being thoughtless about their behavior and how it impacts others, not at all the same thing as kids going out to terrorize the neighborhood and intentioanlly create a nuisance. And I would be hopping mad about the racist undertones to this whole affair. Sounds like your neighbor does not want to see AA kids in _his_ neighborhood and your son was "caught" with them. I would give the HOA a piece of my mind - the accusation that your son (or any of the kids) are vandals is beyond the pale. I would tell them that they need to cease and desist with these baseless accusations and threats or you will be contacting a lawyer and they can address any concerns to him/her.


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

Without living there and knowing your area it's hard to know how large a roll the racial issues are playing in this. I would be very careful about how I spoke to my son about watching himself around these "other" kids from "elsewhere." Obviously you don't want your child to get involved with children who push him to do things that he shouldn't that he probably wouldn't have done on his own. But I would just hate for your DS to get the idea that he shouldn't hang out with these kids _because_ they are black and/or from another neighborhood. And it didn't seem to me that there was any evidence that these were "bad kids" or anything.
Could your son possibly get a hold of these other kids and you could invite everyone over for pizza or something? Or meet up with them at the pool?

Also, I understand that you are in a tough position but it seems a shame to severely restrict your son's going out time (assuming you believe that he does understand which behaviors are not acceptable- and especially that if there is any start or talk of vandalizing he needs to make an excuse to his friends and come home immediately!). So many kids don't want to or don't have the chance to play freely outside and it is so so important for their development and wellbeing. I don't think this one neighbor should be able to hold your child hostage. Get a clarification on the rules from the HOA, go over them with DS, and beyond that I wouldn't live in too much fear from the HOA. If he does something that was actually, explicitly against the rules and the HOA fines you, then make that DS's responsibility.


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## rhiOrion (Feb 17, 2009)

I haven't read all of the responses, but ITA with Sharon about this being weird! I mean, to me most of what they did falls under the "kids will be kids" category. The only one I can really see maybe saying something about is the riding bikes through people's lawns. And even that is just kids being kids, but I could see talking to the parents about that. Just nicely asking them to ask their kids to stop riding on lawns. And maybe if it continues, then MAYBE asking the HOA to step in.

And maybe I'd suggest they tell their kids to not sit at the end of driveways, but that would be for their own safety.

It's like this is Dennis the Menace, and this guy is an even grumpier version of Mr. Wilson.

It reminds me of a time that my friend and I were at the pool and she breastfed her baby. There was nobody else in the pool at all. But this creepy woman walked out of her house and up to the pool fence. I moved to block her view, and she moved to get a better view. A few minutes later the HOA head lady person showed up to ask my friend to please cover if she's going to NIP. Another case of, if you don't look, it can't bother you. Same for some of what the kids were doing! Just ignore it, and it won't be your problem!


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rico'sAlice* 
Without living there and knowing your area it's hard to know how large a roll the racial issues are playing in this. I would be very careful about how I spoke to my son about watching himself around these "other" kids from "elsewhere." Obviously you don't want your child to get involved with children who push him to do things that he shouldn't that he probably wouldn't have done on his own. But I would just hate for your DS to get the idea that he shouldn't hang out with these kids _because_ they are black and/or from another neighborhood. And it didn't seem to me that there was any evidence that these were "bad kids" or anything.

If this were my kid, it would have nothing to do with their race. But these are kids that Mom apparently doesn't know, and there's been an issue - justified or not. So... I would want to know where he knows them from, and how they all ended hanging together.

I've had kids in our neighborhood that I'd barred my kids from hanging with. They're trouble. And I'm not going to go there.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Or the HOA rep could be judging the AA kids as "bad" because of their race and like the rest of it, it is unfair to Sharon and the kids. Unfortunately it is not that far fetched of an idea that someone who is distanced from the situation would judge a kids behaviour as "bad" instead of just a minor nuisance because the child is a different race.

The HOA rep said "maybe it's the company he keeps" when no one in the company is doing anything horrible (maybe a little inconsiderate) and then implies the kids are responsible for vandalism. I'd wonder if racism was playing a role in the initial complaint and/or the HOA's actions too. I mean, seriously, who complains that kids are riding their bikes on the street? In Canada that's the only legal place _to_ ride your bike in a neighbourhood.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
If this were my kid, it would have nothing to do with their race. But these are kids that Mom apparently doesn't know, and there's been an issue - justified or not. So... I would want to know where he knows them from, and how they all ended hanging together.

As kids get older, we don't know every one they know. My DD is about to turn 12, and half the kids she invited to her party I couldn't pick out of a line up.

Quote:

I've had kids in our neighborhood that I'd barred my kids from hanging with. They're trouble. And I'm not going to go there.
for us it comes down to behavoir. Luckily, we live in mixed neighborhood with nice kids and neighbors who are usually reasonable. The situation in the OPer's neighborhood sounds very icky to me.

I'd be clear with my child about behavoir that is and isn't OK, but I'd want to stay far, far away from implying that they shouldn't be friends with AA kids because if they are people will think they are up to no good. It's not the 50s.

I'd encourage my child to watch their step because Big Icky Neighbor is watching, but I'd want them to get outside, ride their bike, and enjoy their friends (even new friends that I hadn't met yet)!


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