# When would you call DCS?



## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

OK i am sad to say that i have a cousin that is disciplining her 8 month old. Here is an example:

I was over to her house the other day and the baby got fussy and wanted to be held. Well she told him no and mad her sit down and spanked him







. HE cried but finally calmed down. Later on he jumped on her and messed with her face (hes very active and always playing with your face and hair) she sit him down and told him to stop. Hours later she wanted him to go to sleep and he didnt so he was crying and acting up. SHe kept trying to rock him and was getting mad and cursed at him really bad. Then she got so mad and put him on the floor and told him if he didnt want to go to sleep she wasnt going to hold him. Well i proceeded to pick him up and she said no let him cry. So i had no chose it was her child.

Am i overreacting to thinking about calling DCS?
I mean he is just an 8 month old baby
That is too young for any type of discipline in my opinion.
How should i approach her about this?


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## btlsmum (Feb 13, 2005)

Honestly? I don't think that Children's Services would be a reasonable solution. They likely wouldn't have much to offer, nor the time to handle a case like that, IMO.

She likely needs some parenting classes and some stress/anger management classes. Is there anything going on in her life that would have her on edge? Money, relationship or job woes? It seems to me that one of the biggest factors in people having little patience with their children is that they are dealing with problems that affect all areas of their well being.

I would really just try to be a good friend to her. Ask her how she's doing, listen to her. And model good parenting behaviors both on your kids and with her's.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

I think some parenting classes or therapy would help her, not DCS. She sounds like she doesn't have any patience, maybe she's depressed. Does she get any help with the house and baby?

- Krista


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Sorry, but to me that sounds like normal overwhelmed, immature mainstream parenting. Certainly, no more or less than sad.







There are several baby books that might help "The Fussy Baby" comes to mind. I believe it is Dr. Sears? Someone correct me if this isn't a helpful recommendation. The mama is overwhelmed and needs self care, and support, rather than scolding. Unfortunately, this will very likely escalate as the child's needs ("demands") become more and more.

Would she read on-line? Anywhere would at least commiserate and she'd hear how "normal" the baby's behavior is. And perhaps she would get more ideas on the benefits of comforting the baby. This is just so sad to hear.

Could they afford a mother's helper? I found that this helped me have some time for myself and regroup from the constant, constant needfulness of a baby. Just a few moments for your brain to rest. Providing tools that engage the child, so that the mama gets a bit of a break might help too. Of course, they may become overused, but at least the baby would not be as alone/hit as much, I hope. Things like an exersaucer, swing, bouncy chair for the door way, those stand up toys with dangling items, a boppy, bring the stroller in the house, the car seat even, Baby Einstein videos







: (I certainly don't like suggesting that so young, but...), more rattles, baby music, etc. Things that would entertain the baby.

The girl is obviously immature and overwhelmed. Perhaps, PPD? Providing as much of a break as possible is my best advice. Are there any mother's playgroups, story time at the library, etc. that she could get out and with other new mamas?

The www.NoSpank.net site has a free pamplet called "Plain Talk about Spanking". I would call/request them sending several for you to share with her/others. It is very well documented about the dangers of hitting children.

Best wishes,

Pat


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I agree, it sounds like typical mainstream parenting ideas, esp of an overwhelmed mother. A sad aspect of our society.

I like the idea of offering information on the effects of hitting, as well as ideas for giving her a break. Maybe between those things she will be able to change for the better...


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree that CPs isn't the best route to take at the moment. I would definately intervene, but if you intervene on the child's behalf right now the mama is likely to become more defensive and upset and *may* take it out more on the child.

Right now (If I were you) I would intervene on the behalf of the mama and the family. I might gently strike up a conversation the next time you are together and she seems calm and receptive --- something along the lines of:

"I noticed the last time I was here that you seemed a bit stressed...I know how difficult it is sometimes when little ones start becoming ____ (mobile, grabby, vocal, whatever) ....and I would love to help you get the care and stress relief that you deserve!" Then I would gently suggest a few things like perhaps watching her baby while she took a hot bath, went out for a cup of coffee etc.... and hope that she takes you up on it. Relationships have to be built, and built on trust. I don't know how close you are to your cousin, but I would begin building a friendship with her so that you can become someone she can both rely on for friendship and someone she is likely to listen to in terms of becoming more gentle with her child. People tend to listen to people that they like and respect and who they percieve to be *on their side* ... rather than people who they percieve to be persecuting them and judging them.

I would try that first. You can be supportive of a stressed out mama with no knowledge of more gentle techniques without supporting AT ALL the current method of "discipline".

It is very difficult to see though. I have a very best friend who has been in my life for about 15 years who employs methods of discipline that I would never consider. I try to be very gentle with her and tread lightly in my suggestions and not be judgemental, and it has seemed to help a lot... she recently declined putting her son on ADHD medication per my gentle suggestions that she look into food intolerances, sugar intake, possible sources of overstimulation, homeopathics for calming and focus etc.... so I was so happy to hear that. You can make a difference, you just have to tread lightly.

Good luck to you!


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
Am i overreacting to thinking about calling DCS?
I mean he is just an 8 month old baby
That is too young for any type of discipline in my opinion.
How should i approach her about this?

I would absolutely not call CPS. CPS will not help her "get help".Helping is NOT what they do. I don't think what she is doing is acceptable by any means,so don't take it that i'm just excusing her behavior or anything. I totally agree that the baby is way too young for any discipline,and as for approaching her about it,well,that depends on how close you are to her. Is she someone you are around alot and really care for,or just more of someone you see no wand then? If you are close to her,talk to her about it gently. Offer to help her out by watching the baby for a few hours so that she can have some "alone time",etc. But don't call CPS over this.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

The book Scubamama mentioned is called "Parenting Your Fussy Baby and High Need Child" it is by Dr Sears and is a very good book. I found it very helpful with my first baby who was and still can be high need.

I agree with pps that it isn't time to call CPS, yet. See if she will consider a parenting class or counseling if there are issues in her life causing this stress. Give her as much information as you can to help her see that hitting an eight month old baby is very bad. Also, does she get any time away from the baby? Give her some information on the importance of taking time for herself too. Hopefully, she will be receptive to this.

However, if you see the spankings escalate to where the child is actually being injured, then I would call. I mean if you actually think she could seriously hurt the baby. In that case, his protection is more important. That's the only danger I can see. Sometimes these cases can quickly escalate into real child abuse, and that is serious. But then again, as a teacher, I was always one of the people who is legally "obligated" to call.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

DCS is not going to do anything about this, if she hits him they will, if he is failing to thrive and combined with this maybe. What I would suggest is asking her if she would like you to watch her baby for a few hours while she has some time for herself and also giving her a parenting book that you think is not too far out of what she is willing to do. I would suggest Dr. Sear's Discipline Book because it sounds like she is obssessed about discipline and it includes a lot of the AP stuff as well as specific discipline procedures and explanations of why you should wait until your child is a closer to the toddler stage before you use them.

It sounds like she is in serious need of a break and you should try to offer a break and a parenting book to her when she is calm, not in the middle of her frustration with her child.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I think a lot of mainstream parents still have a clue that an 8 month-old can't have any capability to listen to directions and understand and obey. What everyone else said, but how about also (gently) just educating her that there is simply no way to discipline an 8 month-old? Does she know that a baby is not going to understand, listen to "stop" and go to sleep on command? Maybe if you couch it in language that is supportive (i.e. "I know it's totally stressful" etc.) she won't feel lectured.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I think the advice you've gotten here is good, but I just have to disagree with the idea that spanking an 8-month-old for wanting to be held is "typical mainstream parenting." I have many mainstream mom friends, and none of them would even consider spanking a child this age--in fact, I'd bet good money they'd find the idea just as outrageous as we do. I think that particular incident was pretty dysfunctional (although I agree about not calling CPS).


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Thank you all for your posts! I feel silly not realizing what she must be going through. The father of her child is in jail so she is alone. I am about 45 minutes from her so i am not there often. I talked to her and she broke down and cried. She asked me to watch him for the whole weekend so i am going to pick him up friday morning and drop him off Sunday afternoon. Thanks.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

She's lucky to have someone to help. I'm so glad you were able to be there for her! I think that's the best way for all of us to make a difference in the world, to do it in our own lives with the people close to us. Good for you mama! and hugs to your friend.


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Ok her child is almost a year now. SHe is pregnant again. No help from either fatherS. SHe is frustrated. THe spankings are more frequent. I am really scared for the child. He is a screamer (not loud). She will tell him to shut up. If he doesnt do it he will get hit in the *MOUTH.* 15 min. later hell do the same thing. I told her DONT YOU THINK THAT IF HE UNDERSTOOD WHY HE WAS SPANKED THE FIRST TIME HE WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN. I explained that at 11 months he doesnt know what he is doing. SHe told me that since i dont have a child yet i dont know what i am talking about. SHe told me that he gets on her nerves sometimes that she cant go out. After she gets off work she has to pick him up and she gets no break. Well i gave her a TWO WEEK break. She picked him up yesterday. She told me today that she is still frustrated. SHe said that he is so BAD. Still gets on her nerves. BUt he is a baby. SIGH. WWYD?


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Ok her child is almost a year now. SHe is pregnant again. No help from either fatherS. SHe is frustrated. THe spankings are more frequent. I am really scared for the child. He is a screamer (not loud). She will tell him to shut up. If he doesnt do it he will get hit in the *MOUTH.* 15 min. later hell do the same thing. I told her DONT YOU THINK THAT IF HE UNDERSTOOD WHY HE WAS SPANKED THE FIRST TIME HE WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN. I explained that at 11 months he doesnt know what he is doing. SHe told me that since i dont have a child yet i dont know what i am talking about. SHe told me that he gets on her nerves sometimes that she cant go out. After she gets off work she has to pick him up and she gets no break. Well i gave her a TWO WEEK break. She picked him up yesterday. She told me today that she is still frustrated. SHe said that he is so BAD. Still gets on her nerves. BUt he is a baby. SIGH. WWYD?


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Ok her child is almost a year now. SHe is pregnant again. No help from either fatherS. SHe is frustrated. THe spankings are more frequent. I am really scared for the child. He is a screamer (not loud). She will tell him to shut up. If he doesnt do it he will get hit in the *MOUTH.* 15 min. later hell do the same thing. I told her DONT YOU THINK THAT IF HE UNDERSTOOD WHY HE WAS SPANKED THE FIRST TIME HE WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN. I explained that at 11 months he doesnt know what he is doing. SHe told me that since i dont have a child yet i dont know what i am talking about. SHe told me that he gets on her nerves sometimes that she cant go out. After she gets off work she has to pick him up and she gets no break. Well i gave her a TWO WEEK break. She picked him up yesterday. She told me today that she is still frustrated. SHe said that he is so BAD. Still gets on her nerves. BUt he is a baby. SIGH. WWYD?


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)




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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

She DEFINITELY needs some help, probably more than you can offer. Can you help her reframe her thinking? Like talking about how babies aren't bad, it doesn't matter if your infant "irritates" you, you still need to be a grown-up and take care of them. She sounds very immature.

Also, does she have a drug problem? Meth? If so, I'd try to get him away from her if you can. Would you end up raising him?


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Well i have talked to my fiance about this. He doesnt mind if we take care of him.

Honestly, she hasnt said anything about drugs, but it would not shock me.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

this mama is ppd. wouldn't you say? Someone should intervene on her behalf too. Unfortunatly I doubt cps would do anything in this situation.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

You have gotten some good advice so far. Please also consider that it is NOT just a choice between "reporting her to the authorities" or offering friendly support/advice. There is an immense array of options in between. Really!

One place to start is to call a hotline like Parental Stress Service1-800-829-3777. I don't know where you are, but they can recommend a local hotline if this one is not. You can remain anonymous (or not) and they can refer you to over 800 social services that can help your cousin parent more humanely/effectively.

For instance, there are respite programs where she could get free childcare regularly. No reporting to DFS, no jail, no child being whisked away. Just free care for people who are at risk of abusing their kids (she definitely qualifies since she already is abusing the baby). There are also free parenting classes, counseling, programs that offer home visits, help preparing resumes, education around discipline without hitting, a kind listening ear on the hotline if she chooses to call, etc. etc.

Please, please, please know that there are many resources out there you can connect her with. It is not all or nothing as so many seem to think -- either you do nothing (but offer friendship - which is not nothing but it's not enough when a baby is being battered, IMO) or you call DFS and she loses her kids, they wind up in horrid foster care and a whole parade of horribles follows. We (as in our society) need to consider all the interventions in between. There should be even more, IMO, like a law against hitting children and mandatory education for those who do, but since there isn't we have to work with what is out there. And there really is a lot. You just have to pick up the phone.

And please do call 911 or DFS if the abuse escalates to a point where you think the child may be seriously injured or lose his life. HItting a baby in the face is getting REALLY close to that line for me.... Above all, please stay involved, please keep trying to help. That baby (and her new baby) are completely defenseless and it's heartbreaking to read about the violence the one child is already enduring.









Edited: ALso, please feel free to PM me if you want more info. about social services. I will research exhaustively if need be, to try and help this family.

One more thought: if you are worried that calling a hotline will result in her being reported, please rest assured. When I worked at PSS (the hotline listed above) that was our absolutely last recourse. We told everyone who called right off the bat that we were mandated reporters and that they could remain anonymous (or, as many did, just not detail what they had done). I was there a year, and I think there was only one call we reported. It was a clear cry for help (as in "Hi, my name is XYZ and I think I might kill my child. My address is XYZ. Please help.") If you call, you will tap into lots of support/assistance. Please call....


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I would call DCS. I don't think they will do much, but it will be good for them to have a record of what is going on and maybe they will send someone out and encourage her to take classes on parenting. If enough people report things they may eventually step in. The verbal abuse and the anger is very disturbing. I would also tell her that you are happy to watch the child when she needs a break to. I sounds like she is in desperate need of one and I would point that out and highlight some of the reasons you think that, like spanking an eight month old, swearing at him, and getting angry when he explores and doesn't conform to her schedule.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Wow. So the child is still an infant, she's striking him in the face and spanking him repeatedly, and she's pregnant again?!

OK, I'm going to disagree with the other ladies and say that CPS needs to be brought in. It sounds like she's on a short string, and this child is severely in danger of suffering mortal injury at the hands of his mother.

Please, please, please, for the sake of both babies, start SOMETHING...maybe even call the baby's pediatrician.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I agree with PeaceLovingMama, there are resources out there. But what about family resources? It sounds like you have been a huge resource. And you can continue to be one to the extent of your willingness and ability. But, are there additional resources for her? A sister, aunt, grandmother, mother who might be closer physically. I am very concerned that the hormonal changes and the physcial demands and limitations of pregnancy could put her into a more dire emotional state. Hitting a child (or ANYONE), on the face is generally defined as abuse by most state DFS and police. Unless you witness this, and report it, (and she'd probably know and dissociate from you), an investigation probably couldn't lead to much benefit, unfortunately. They don't stay in the home waiting to help, or stop her, of course.

My urgent suggestion is that the baby be provided with a stable, safe environment with your facilitation. This mama with a new baby and a toddler sems like a recipe for disaster, even with a supportive family. The woman needs more parenting support and skills. There is no way of knowing more than what we grew up with, unless we are open to it. How could one know? It is six months later than your OP, has she been doing well-child visits with a pediatrician? Is she getting out with the baby? Is she acutely stressed, chronically overwhelmed, or is this a lack of life coping skills? Being young and having a child is a lot on one person alone.

There are some Bach Flower remedies that are helpful in acute stress- Rescue Remedy; Elm-for feeling overwhelmed; Beech- for intolerance; Clematis- for patience; Cherry Plum-for out of control anger, etc. There are remedies for feeling trapped by your situation, depression, apathy, sadness, overworked, etc. Here is a link to find the best remedy for her: http://www.ainsworths.com/remedy/default.aspx Some Rescue Remedy for the baby could help too. Dairy consumption also causes aggression and aggitation in our son and me.

*She needs some information about developmental "normals". I don't know a good reference. Anyone???* This and Dr. Sear's Discipline book, which I normally don't like, but would be very gentle compared to the current "discipline" could empower her with how to manage with a toddler. "The Natural Child Project" web site has many gentle parenting articles which you could print and share with her. They would be a useful resource, if you continue doing childcare too. http://www.mgwater.com/conseq.shtml The child needs stability, and if you can offer that, the child needs loving support. Perhaps, the mama would be agreeable on a month by month basis for you to help out. But, I'd keep seeking resources so that you don't get burnt out, as you are quite young also.

Maybe, the break would help. Maybe she would start to blame the baby more for her stress when they are together. But, at the moment, the baby needs to be protected, and she needs tools to cope with normal child behaviors. Please do make some calls to find out what services are available locally. That would be easier than 24/7 child care by you. And I'd encourage her to seek family support, if she hasn't already tapped them out. Have you checked in Find Your Tribe-her geographic area? Perhaps, there are mamas that could become a community for her. If you are near NC, we have mamas that want to help. We all need help from others, we are a communal species.

She may also need to be supplementing with Magnesium, which is often associated with aggressive moodiness and high stress. Interestingly, I just read that hypersensitivity to sounds is a sign of magnesium deficiency. She sounds like she is very reactive to the crying. http://www.mgwater.com/conseq.shtml

Please keep us updated.

Pat


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
this mama is ppd. wouldn't you say? Someone should intervene on her behalf too.

Maybe. Or maybe she's just immature and unreasonable.

I agree that there needs to be an intervention, both for her benefit and for that of her children.

Personally, seeing her hit her baby in the mouth would be enough for me to call Family Services. I don't agree with a previous poster that "helping is not what they do." They do, in fact, help. (Likely more than they screw up. It's just all the screw-ups that we get to hear about.) I'd call them and let them know of my concern and say that I've offered help but she is not receptive and that I think she really needs some help learning how to parent effectively and in a non-harmful manner, especially before the new baby comes.


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

It may have been in someone's siggie here, but I saw a quote the other day that really seems to apply here. It said something about how you are dealing with a human being, not managing an inconvenience. It sounds like your cousin doesn't understand the distinction. How old is she? She sounds really immature.

Calling CPS may be warranted, but I suspect that she will know it was you who called since you've already expressed your concerns to her. I doubt that she'd be willing to let you have him move in with you if she is mad at you.

Rather than calling CPS right away, perhaps when she complains about never getting a break that would be the time to suggest that you and your fiance would be willing to take him in for a while and provide a home for him until things settle down for her. Once you've got him in your custody, you could start working toward establishing legal guardianship slowly but surely and perhaps he would not need to go back to her at all.

The new baby is a whole other story... poor kiddo!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

What are the laws, where you live?

In Canada it is illegal to spank a child under 2 yrs old. I think if child and family services where called on a woman like that in many Canadian cities, there would be an intervention, if they assessed the abuse as being likely to escalate, and parenting classes might be enforced in order for her to get her kids back.

Are there any laws like this where you live? I don't know how differently CPS works from child and family services in Canada.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I agree, it sounds like typical mainstream parenting ideas, esp of an overwhelmed mother. A sad aspect of our society.

..

Seriously? Maybe I am totally out of the mainstream loop - but I had no idea it was that common for an 8 month old to be spanked!! I 2nd the rec's for getting this mom some help!


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Well i called her. I picked the baby up today. The agreement is keeping him until her baby she is pregnant with is 1 year old. But my fiance wants to know what if she abuses the newborn. We will see.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

You are a hero, in my book, for getting involved in making a child's life better (and stopping the abuse).









Also, I don't think that spanking infants is "mainstream." All of the mainstream parents I know (and I know a lot) who would be heartbroken by this thread. In fact, I predict that NOT spanking will be mainstream (if not outlawed) in the next 20 years. It is always good when something that benefits children becomes "mainstream." I look forward to the day when hitting kids is marginalized, if not banned altogether, and mainstream=non-violence.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Wow, keep us posted! I'm glad you have him, but I'm also worried about her second baby. I think she sounds very high risk for becoming a child abuser who causes severe physical harm to her kids, even if she's not quite there yet.

As for the suggestions that she is practising normal mainstream parenting, do you guys live next door to ezzo or the pearls or something? Cause all those extreme corporal punishment advocates always claim that what's wrong with the mainstream parents is that they are too afraid to spank their kids these days. Seems the extreme opposite ends of the child discipline schools of thought have rather skewed ideas of what most mainstream, north american parents do, perhaps because their lifestyle is so far removed from the mainstream? I know a fair amount of mainstream parents, and their parenting didn't look anything like this. Particularly what she is punishing for, I've never seen a mainstream parent spank an infant for wanting to be held, nothing mainstream about that at all. The only thing I can think of that has skewed sopme opinions so extremely in regards to mainstream parenting is that regionally, things are very very different in your neighborhoods where everyone is wacking around their infants? Certainly not like that anywhere I've lived.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
Well i called her. I picked the baby up today. The agreement is keeping him until her baby she is pregnant with is 1 year old. But my fiance wants to know what if she abuses the newborn. We will see.

Tell your fiance that I'll help, without a blink of the eye.

Pat


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
As for the suggestions that she is practising normal mainstream parenting, do you guys live next door to ezzo or the pearls or something?

While my brother and sil are not out of control like this woman sounds, they did spank their infants. I clearly recall my nephew being spanked at 1 yr of age for crying at Disney World (he was really tired and whiny). When they cried, they were asked "do you want a spanking?" By 12-18 months, they stopped crying as soon as that was suggested. I guess that meant it worked in their parents' minds.







:


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## MellyMel (May 19, 2005)

wow, you are a caring and selfless woman. I just have one question, and please don't take this the wrong way. What will you do when that time is up? Give him back? Because that will be heartbreaking. He will probably call you guys mommy and daddy. Would adoption be possible? I don't want to be a naysayer, but this situation could have a very heartbreaking outcome for everybody. Good luck!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Child Trends DataBank - Attitudes Towards Spanking
... of spanking, with the relationship becoming stronger as children age.6 Positive... Seventy-four percent of non-Hispanic white women say that spanking a ...
http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/i...dsSpanking.cfm - Cached

The Unsparing Rod
68 percent of American parents think spanking is not only good but ... In teen-age years, there is a high correlation between spanking and delinquency. ...
http://www.neverhitachild.org/unspar1.html - Cached

Quote:

- 68 percent of American parents think spanking is not only good but essential to child rearing;

- 90 percent of parents spank their toddlers at least three times a week; two-thirds spank them once a day;

- One in four parents begin to spank when their child is 6 months old, 50 percent when their child is 12 months old;

- 52 percent of 13- and 14-year-olds get spanked; 20 percent of high school seniors do.

http://www.free-essays-free-essays.c...d/smu216.shtml

Quote:

The poll asked if a child less than one year old should be spanked. As a result, 81 percent of the mothers disagreed with spanking a child less than a year of age, and 19 percent believe a child under a year of age should be spanked (Jet 16).

Then when asked if a child of 1-3 years old should be spanked, 26 percent *disagreed* with spanking at that age and an astounding 74 percent agreed with spanking a child of this age(Jet 16).

When asked about the harshness of the spanking, 92 percent said they do not leave visible marks of damage while only _eight percent say they do leave a mark upon the child_ (Jet 16).

The results of both polls show consistent finding with the research of sociologist Richard J. Gelles, PhD, and director of the Family Violence Research Program at the University of Rhode Island. He Believes Hitting children is so taken for granted in our society that almost all parent view spanking as an inevitable part of raising children(Working Mother 48).
http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnew..._spanking.html

Unfortunately, hitting kids is very normal.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MellyMel*
wow, you are a caring and selfless woman. I just have one question, and please don't take this the wrong way. What will you do when that time is up? Give him back? Because that will be heartbreaking. He will probably call you guys mommy and daddy. Would adoption be possible? I don't want to be a naysayer, but this situation could have a very heartbreaking outcome for everybody. Good luck!

I would imagine that if the mama is is a healthier state then the child will have had continued contact by her choice. If the mama is not coping, DFS will facilitate tifenglen with continued custody. Not to worry, the baby needs love now, and the mama does too. One day at a time.

Pat


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MellyMel*
wow, you are a caring and selfless woman. I just have one question, and please don't take this the wrong way. What will you do when that time is up? Give him back? Because that will be heartbreaking. He will probably call you guys mommy and daddy. Would adoption be possible? I don't want to be a naysayer, but this situation could have a very heartbreaking outcome for everybody. Good luck!

I know. The agreement is to get her some parenting classes. I told her to start them now while she is pregnant so she can prepare herself. I let her read this thread. She will still be in his life, supervised. She is not allowed to hit him in our house. I am going to see what we need to do legally cause ill have to take him to a doctor etc.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Good for you! What a great cousin. Sounds like you're going to be a great mother, too.

Also, I don't think that kind of parenting is mainstream at all. It's one thing to think it's okay to spank your kids as a method of discipline and a whole other thing to take a 2 week "break" from your child, be excessively irritated with them all of the time, even if you are a single parent, and be very willing to give him up. You've made a much better choice than calling CPS, he's a lucky boy.

But I would still press her on the issue of drugs, or maybe she's drinking. That might be the more important thing to target, especially if she's pregnant.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Child Trends DataBank - Attitudes Towards Spanking
... of spanking, with the relationship becoming stronger as children age.6 Positive... Seventy-four percent of non-Hispanic white women say that spanking a ...
http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/i...dsSpanking.cfm - Cached

The Unsparing Rod
68 percent of American parents think spanking is not only good but ... In teen-age years, there is a high correlation between spanking and delinquency. ...
http://www.neverhitachild.org/unspar1.html - Cached

http://www.free-essays-free-essays.c...d/smu216.shtml

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnew..._spanking.html

Unfortunately, hitting kids is very normal.

Pat

These excerpts make me physically ill. And, to be honest, somewhat ashamed to be American.







I knew hitting was normalized in our culture but did not realize the extent to which people hit babies. I may be in denial, but I still don't consider hitting 8-month-old infants to be mainstream. I think more mainstream parents start the violence closer to age 1-3 (still sad...). The most mainstream Mom I know believes in spanking but hasn't yet started with her 21-month-old. I like to think I have had something to do with that. I have been subtly planting the seed with her to at least consider non-violent discipline.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I wouldn't call CPS/DCS unless the child was in immediate physical danger. This child isn't.


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Oh, I know how common and prevalent spanking is, but i think this women has gone past that. When she was spanking an 8 month old for wanting to be held, that was going past any mainstream parent I've ever known, and I know many of them. I've known many immature teen moms in my own dysfunctional youth who where terrible disciplinarians, but none of them woud've done such a thing (though many other stupid things, nothing as heartless as that) Mainstream in my experience would be slapping an exploring hand that keeps touching things after a parent keeps saying no, but fully spanking an infant for wanting to be held is not. I wouldn't call CPS or Canadian equivalent on a mainstream parent who spanked/hand slapped etc, unless there was a degree of cruelty taken to a place where I felt the child was in danger, emotionally and physically, the child described in this circumstance seems to be in potential danger due to a degree of cruelty taken beyond "normal mainstream" that I'm aware of.

One of my sister in laws volunteered at an orphanage in Barbados for a couple of years, saddly, beaten infants where really common, and public beatings of very young children a social norm on the streets, according to her. There, plenty of infants are regularly spanked/beaten/injured as it IS mainstream in the poor parts, to spank infants. Thankfully, a far cry from anywhere that I've lived, even in parts of Canada where spanking itself was the socially accepted norm. But this is why I consider that for those of you who say this is no different than mainstream parenting, that perhaps where you live is much different than anywhere I've ever lived.

scuba, you'd like where I live now, there's plenty of families who parent similarly to you







What is mainstream really differes, depending on regions.


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## BohoMama (Jun 26, 2003)

OP tifnglen you are a hero, and so is your fiance. Please let me know if there is something (I'm thinking used baby clothes or a few books) I could send you in the mail. Please write quickly, I am packing for a trip back to the US tomorrow.

All the best,
Melinda & family
(Czech Republic)

p.s. I feel a little dishonest writing this since I am very nonreligious myself, but are you and/or your cousin involved in a church or other religious group? If so, maybe they could facilitate some counseling or even parenting classes and help your cousin find the divine in her child(ren).


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

tifnglen, You're doing a wonderful thing for this child and hopefully his mom, too.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I wouldn't call CPS/DCS unless the child was in immediate physical danger. This child isn't.

And I just don't get this. Being smacked in the mouth is being in immediate danger - both physical and emotional. The first few years are vital in a child's emotional development. This child is learning every day that he is worthless. How is that not being in danger?


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I wouldn't call CPS/DCS unless the child was in immediate physical danger. This child isn't.

Clearly spoken by someone who had not dealt with the scars a childhood of abuse brings.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
Clearly spoken by someone who had not dealt with the scars a childhood of abuse brings.









Or maybe by someone who has dealt with CPS, or "the authorities". I'd caution anyone against being cavalier about calling them, if you're truly interested in helping the child at question.


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## ThreeJane (Mar 8, 2003)

tif, YOU ROCK!

The world needs more people like you and your fiance. YOU BOTH ROCK!

I know that sounds stupid, but I don't know how else to say it.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Sending you and your entire family love, strength and courage.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Or maybe by someone who has dealt with CPS, or "the authorities". I'd caution anyone against being cavalier about calling them, if you're truly interested in helping the child at question.

Uh, huh. I've known a lot of people, both the kids (as friend in my teens) and the families (two of them as an adult) who had dealings with the Canadian equivalent of CPS. There was _one_ case where the child was probably better off, because her mother was an extremely neglectful (like no food for days on end) heroin addict, and she'd probably have died. But, for her "better off" meant living in a foster home where she was being sexually abused and buying drugs from the foster mom's boarder, while the woman was out partying. I realize that's not what all foster parents are like (or even the majority) - I realize that CPS doesn't _always_ take the kids - but I also realize that once they're called, the helpful informant loses all input into how the case is handled.


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

20% of high school seniors are spanked???? How in the world to you spank an 18 year old?









Wait...Maybe they don't mean by their parents.

I think you are doing a great thing in taking in this child, and I hope it works out for all of you in the end. It could be a tough situation. I would recommend not taking this lightly and making sure that you have legal guardianship of him and are authorized to make all decisions about him and his care. You don't want to be just a babysitter for a year. For example, you need to make sure that in the event that something would happen to him and he would need serious medical care, you are authorized to make those types of decisions on his behalf.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jish*
20% of high school seniors are spanked???? How in the world to you spank an 18 year old?










My perception is that people call hitting children "spanking" even when they hit them with an implement. Hitting children with an implement is actually corporal punishment (not assault) legally. Corporal punishment is commonly practiced in the US and in the public schools (21 states), mostly in elementary grades. But, many private, and especially religious schools, utilize corporal punishment as physical discipline. Even "juvenile boot camps" use corporal punishment against children with parent's consent and support.

The use of fear and intimidation, and physical "discipline" doesn't stop in a home just because a child is 15, 16, 17 or 18. Our babysitter is 18.5 and still has a bedtime, curfew and is grounded and loses privileges if she disobeys. This is not expected to change when she goes to college with them paying tuition, room and board. I don't believe that she has been hit in the past 4-5 years though.

Pat


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
The use of fear and intimidation, and physical "discipline" doesn't stop in a home just because a child is 15, 16, 17 or 18. Our babysitter is 18.5 and still has a bedtime, curfew and is grounded and loses privileges if she disobeys. This is not expected to change when she goes to college with them paying tuition, room and board. I don't believe that she has been hit in the past 4-5 years though.

Pat

I'm glad she is getting some exposure with another way of raising children.


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## Collin'sMama (Jan 24, 2006)

OP, you are amazing!!!!!!!!!! That baby is so lucky to have you







I have a 14 month old boy and if you need anything...my family will be willing to help...we've got extras of most everything a baby/toddler needs. Feel free to PM me.
People like you are unbelievable. I don't know how to word it...
My heart was hurting so bad for this poor child when I first started reading this thread and it is so awesome to know that you stepped in.

Good luck and keep trying to get your cousin the support and resources she needs!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I guess you guys were addressing me since I said that she sounds typical of mainstream parenting...

Well, I see parents hitting kids all the time. Most recently I saw a woman in a car in front of me turn around from the passenger seat of a moving car and whack a child in a carseat - not booster - about 12-15 times in a row. She must've make solid contact with the face...

And this was in Boston, where "permissive" parenting (ie: snooty form of neglect) is rampant.

I see it all the time in stores, and parks too. I say something whenever possible.










Now, about the OP's update... You rock!







I'm so glad you have taken action, and are changing that child's life. You're a hero!


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I guess you guys were addressing me since I said that she sounds typical of mainstream parenting...

Well, I see parents hitting kids all the time. Most recently I saw a woman in a car in front of me turn around from the passenger seat of a moving car and whack a child in a carseat - not booster - about 12-15 times in a row. She must've make solid contact with the face...

And this was in Boston, where "permissive" parenting (ie: snooty form of neglect) is rampant.

I see it all the time in stores, and parks too. I say something whenever possible.










Now, about the OP's update... You rock!







I'm so glad you have taken action, and are changing that child's life. You're a hero!









Do you remember that man hunt a year or two ago for the mother who was caught slugging her dd repeatedly in a parking lot before driving off? I think even for the mainstream...striking a child in the face repeatedly, especially a very young one, is considered unacceptable.

To the OP who thinks that just because she may have had a bad experience with CPS, they shouldn't be called unless the child's life was in iminent danger, PLEASE, I beg of you, reconsider.

Was my life in imminent danger growing up? No. Was it filled with physical and verbal abuse, emotional neglect? Yes. Would have almost anything been better? Yes. I know quite a few foster parents. None of them abuse or neglect their foster children.

I think the bad situations get played up in the media but most foster parents are loving, gentle people who are in the game to help, not hurt.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Joanna: I don't know if you were addressing that to me or someone else. But, I have not had "a" bad experience with our version of CPS. I've seen them in action on many occasions, and the only one in which they didn't make things _worse_ for the kids was the girl whose mother was a heroin addict. She'd have died if CPS hadn't become involved, so her crappy foster situation was obviously an improvement. But, _every_ other case I've seen/been involved with, CPS made things worse, not better.

Have you ever watched an 8-year-old boy cowering in the corner of his bed when total strangers show up in his home at 11:00 at night to wake him up and take him away? Have you ever watched that boy crying and pleading with these strangers to leave him alone? That child and his sibling spent a year separated from their parents, then they were sent home with no counselling or therapy of any kind. "Case closed - okay you can have your kids back." I saw the court transcripts (I was at court, as I may have had to testify) and the entire thing was a fiasco. The social worker lied in court - the original allegations were made about an alleged incident 13 years prior, involving one of the boys. Yet, the whole family was ripped apart. The fact is that if I (or anybody else) call CPS, I don't know how they're going to react. Maybe they'll go in and work with the family in-home and try to help that way (and even that can backfire) and maybe they'll take the kids. I could look at someone, say "oh - what a terrible person" and call CPS. It might make me feel as though I was doing something - but I'd never know if I'd actually helped or made things worse for that person's child(ren).

CPS (at least here) is as much about telling you what kind of lifestyle you're allowed to have as a parent as it is about protecting children. I know a woman who was chastised for having violent videos (action movies and couple of horror flicks) where her son could reach them. Her son was year old, and couldn't put them in the VCR...and could have reached them if she'd put them up, anyway, as he was a serious climber. Sure - the chastisement didn't hurt her family, but the fact that CPS even sees that as something they have a right to spout off about shows me that they don't need to be in someone's home unless there's a _major_ need.


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## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

I am so happy you could bring the baby to your home. I was so (pleasantly) surprised! How did you do it? Oh, congratulations!!! If he was in my home I would let him cry his little hearts content, seems like that was such an issue for him. **Staying supportive and close of course. Can we help you at all with things or books or whatever? I so wish I could hug him and you too!!





































Lori


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I don't mean for my posts to be construed as I'm OK with any of the treatment discribed here. Most of you probably know I'm as die-hard as it gets about treating kids respectfully. So may not need saying...

But I can only go by what I see in public. I'm not friends with any of these people. I don't know how "mainstream" anyone is. _But what I see regularly leads me to think that must be typical._ I frequently see kids getting whacked, jerked, popped, spanked, and picked up threateningly by their shirts. That's not talking about the verbal stuff that is more common even still.

Certainly not remotely acceptable, but seems unfortunately typical to me. Don't see how one incident making the news proves that that kind of treatment of kids is uncommon?







It's not.

If anything, my point is that we can't get complacent by thinking that hitting kids is just some "fringe" thing...


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BohoMama*
OP tifnglen you are a hero, and so is your fiance. Please let me know if there is something (I'm thinking used baby clothes or a few books) I could send you in the mail.

Yes, I'd happily contribute also...PM me if you want.







You are an amazing person & your fiance is as well. Maybe this sweet little child will finally know some peace. All I can see in my mind is a little boy wanting his mama to hold him, instead her arms come down & hurt him. I'm truly afraid for her new babe & am immensely glad you are there to keep an eye on things.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I don't mean for my posts to be construed as I'm OK with any of the treatment discribed here. Most of you probably know I'm as die-hard as it gets about treating kids respectfully. So may not need saying...

But I can only go by what I see in public. I'm not friends with any of these people. I don't know how "mainstream" anyone is. _But what I see regularly leads me to think that must be typical._ I frequently see kids getting whacked, jerked, popped, spanked, and picked up threateningly by their shirts. That's not talking about the verbal stuff that is more common even still.

Certainly not remotely acceptable, but seems unfortunately typical to me. Don't see how one incident making the news proves that that kind of treatment of kids is uncommon?







It's not.

If anything, my point is that we can't get complacent by thinking that hitting kids is just some "fringe" thing...

Not to get too off-topic, here, but this was so surprising to me. I rarely, rarely see people hitting their kids around here. And when I do, the general reaction from others around me seems to be one of shock and disapproval. The other day we saw a dad at the park with his 2 year old who was yelling at her and jerking her around and calling her a bad girl, and every other parent who was there looked distressed over it, and I heard a few comments made, too.

I guess I shouldn't complain about it being too conservative here. I definitely thought we'd be more conservative than Boston.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, don't want to keep veering so OT, but I feel I should clarify for some unknown reason...

The car incident I described was in Boston. I don't actually see hitting everywhere there. I now live in CT around Yale, and there is a majority population of low socio-economic families. I see the abuse happening with them mainly.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Any updates?

I'd love to hear how things are going...


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I think I would call DCS just for the fact that they can atleast direct her to some place for parent counseling. She may benefit from help on how to treat an 8 mo old more appropriately. Maybe she is just having a hard time dealing with being a parent to a child this age OR maybe she will be a bad mom like this his whole life







Either way, she needs some help and guidance. Your best bet is to get her some help or maybe ask her to get help herself??

I don't know, but an 8 mos old only NEEDS at that age, and she is treating him very wrong IMO.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Soundhunter*
What are the laws, where you live?

In Canada it is illegal to spank a child under 2 yrs old. I think if child and family services where called on a woman like that in many Canadian cities, there would be an intervention, if they assessed the abuse as being likely to escalate, and parenting classes might be enforced in order for her to get her kids back.

Are there any laws like this where you live? I don't know how differently CPS works from child and family services in Canada.

Why would any laws matter when it comes to dealing with another human being







That is just very sad IMO that someone would look at what the laws are regarding spanking/beating a child instead of just turning a neglectful parent in to social services.







It's not a case like a husband/wife that have abuse in their relationship. They are adults that can talk to one another and deal with it IF they want to. This is a tiny little, innocent baby that can not take up for himself.

Let's just think about the child here, forget the parent for a moment, he's only 8 mos old and can't speak up for himself or tell his mom to stop neglecting him and hitting him for no reason!! But as an adult witnessing such a thing, you better believe I will stand up for that tiny little babe.


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## tikva18 (Dec 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jish*
20% of high school seniors are spanked???? How in the world to you spank an 18 year old?








.

I was still being hit by my mother and I was in college. It wasn't until my junior or senior year, taht I stood up to her and told her I was not going to take it anymore. My younger brother clearly remembers and was mortified.

And my parents wonder why I won't let my kids go visit them unattended. . .

(for the record, I've always had a decent relationship with my father - he wasn't home much; and I've worked diligently on my relationship with my mother - but I still feel uneasy in her presence and it's been many years that I've been gone)


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