# Friendly conversations on Ezzo...



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

...or Dobson, or whatever....
What do you say when these things come up with acquaintances? You know....you are just chatting with another mama at work, or at church, or wherever, and they ask you if you have read/used Babywise? Or some other such book?

So, what do you say? Do you open up a conversation? Do you simply say "No." and change the subject quickly? Or do you grimace uncontrollably and make no coherent points (as I did yesterday







: :LOL )


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I say something along the lines of "Yes, I thought it sounded promising until I read that the AAP condemned it and warns parents not to use those methods because of the risk of FTT and failure of breastfeeding."

That's for Ezzo. For Dobson, I would just say that I disagree with the methods in those books and I found some other books that I was more comfortable referring to.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I know who Ezzo is, but who is Dobson? Just as bad I'm assuming?


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Dobson isn't as bad when it comes to babies. He doesn't pretend to know about breastfeeding or their feeding schedules. He is, in his books though, pretty anti-gentle discipline.

With Ezzo, if I'm talking to another Christian, I always drop the fact that he was excommunicated- twice. Especially nowadays, it takes a lot to get a church to kick you out. And at least one of the times (probably both) the trouble was directly related to his books.


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

You all are better women than I!

I learned about Ezzo last year when we accidentally joined an Ezzo church/cult. I studied it for a year, did some activism, helped with the Detroit news story, etc. I didn't save one baby in that church, and got myself thrown out of it (Thank God).

But it was the worst year of my life, trying to open people's eyes to the evils of Ezzoism!

Now when I hear the words "Ezzo" or "Babywise", I slowly turn redder and redder until I am purple and then the profanity begins







: . Usually takes me a day or two to quit shaking.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

WOW, it's REALLY hard for me to not come across totally biased about Ezzo. Which is fine, I guess. It's come up once - my friend who'd recently had a baby grabbed it while we were at Barnes and Noble and laid it on the table, saying, "Have you read this one? My friend so-and-so swears by it." I looked at it and tried to keep from throwing up... and then I said, "I haven't read the whole thing but I know what it teaches, and it's definitely not for me. I really disagree with his philosophies on babies." Turns out she didn't even know what it was about, so I was able to nicely explain, and she agreed that CIO wasn't for them either. WHEW!

Dobson hasn't come up yet, except with my husband when I let him know one day that, as much as we do like a lot of what Dobson says, he will not be our source of info for discipline. DH was really surprised so I explained why and he agreed. I'm quite certain Dobson will come up with my friend mentioned above, b/c just last night we started a discipline discussion. (They are planning to spank - know how I feel about it and respect my feelings, and are usually willing to listen to WHY. Thank goodness. The baby is 8mo and she mentioned last night that they're going to start reading books on discipline. Both come from families that spanked - no GD at all - very authoritarian.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

WITh Ezzo I do what the PP said, say "wow, the AAP says his methods are harmful, I would never do that"

With Dobson, I say, "it's a shame people think that you have to punish kids, I never do that." People are usually shocked when I say that (especially because my kids are unusually polite and well behaved (around other people, they are not perfect at home, but that's ok.) They usually bring up how good my kids are and I say, well see you don't need to punish to get that.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
With Dobson, I say, "it's a shame people think that you have to punish kids, I never do that." People are usually shocked when I say that (especially because my kids are unusually polite and well behaved (around other people, they are not perfect at home, but that's ok.) They usually bring up how good my kids are and I say, well see you don't need to punish to get that.

I say similar things sometimes (but not as well...), and have a similar situation (dd is *golden* around people she does not know well. She has clear understanding about considering other people and such, and acts like the "model child"). But I have difficulty expressing what I do other than punishment. And people tend to see me as very extreme in this area. I *am* pretty extreme in my opinions about hitting children, of course. I have a very hard time being diplomatic about that.

I may just steal your quote, Maya. I like your wording. That pretty much sums it up without too much grimace and disgust









The AAP recommendation is a really good response. I think I might actually bring that up with this mama next time I see her...or maybe I should just let it drop


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I am unfamiliar with Ezzo firsthand, but from what I have heard it's not a good thing. Dobson on the other hand is all ick to me. I have a friend that thinks he is the greatest thing ever (her church has hosted him speaking I think) and we just disagree totally there. I just express that I think he is very wrong, and it's sad that people feel they need to treat children that way.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Who is Ezzo?







:

I had to ask who the Pearls were as well - that was an eyeopener







:


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Ezzo wrote On becoming Babywise, and Childwise (for older kids), and maybe some other crap









He is big on schedules, and teaches that babies who don't eat enough at one feeding should be denied more food until the next scheduled feeding. That'll learn um!


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

: ok, who are the Pearls?


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## mommaluv321 (Aug 14, 2004)

: ok, so I havent gotten much reading done either....who? what do they talk about? if someone could sum-up all these ppl I'd dearly appreciate it!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

The Pearls are into stuff like hitting your baby with a switch.


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## Terpatude (Nov 19, 2004)

I have never heard of the Pearls, thank goodness. I was given a copy of Baby Wise when DS came home at the age of three and half weeks..I had never heard of Ezzo at that time..it took all of three paragraphs or so to realize that now way -no how was I going to treat my baby that way...The Pearls sound positively hideous...My children are now 11 and 12 years old and I have used GD and both are well behaved well adjusted children who have never been hit by a switch..That makes me sick to even think about .......


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## Jordansmommy (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
The Pearls are into stuff like hitting your baby with a switch.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

:





























Why do people do stuff like this!!!???


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

I say that yes I am familier with them but that they just weren't right for our family and then I change the subject.

I admit it, I'm a wimp.

I don't like to talk about these things with people who feel differently than I do.

My whole family just loves Dobson. I took such much crap from them during the toddler years because I didn't smack my kids around. My mom is still in shock that my kids are lovely and well behaved. She can't quite figure out how it is that my kids are so much easier to be around than my sister's kids, who have been spanked, yelled at, punished, bribed, etc.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Hey, I wonder if there is an anti-EzzoDobsonPearl bumper sticker out there. Ezzo and the Pearls are a little more out there and I don't think are necessarily as well known, but even I had heard of Dobson. I think he is enough in the mainstream that people don't realize how bad he can be in terms of punishment.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Do a Google search for Ezzo or Babywise, then do one for the Pearls or To Train up a Child. Then be prepared to feel ill. I think Ezzo is pretty bad but IMO the Pearls are the worst of them all. Those people seem to truly hate children. The most sickening thing to me is that ALL these people - Ezzo, the Pearls, Dobson - use Christianity and the bible to defend and support their violent, disrespectful childrearing methods!







What is with these people?

I have a hard time explaining what exactly I do besides punish, too. I think it's because it's such a situational thing, I can speak about it in really vague, broad terms but how I put it into practice varies so much depending on what's actually happening at the time. For me it's much easier to do it than to describe it.


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## Ary99 (Jan 1, 2002)

I used to do home-based services for children who had developmental delays. I was assigned one little guy with a speech delay and his parents were completely on board with the " Train Up a Child" philosophy. I had to look it up so I could learn what they were talking about. I had to have a sit down discussion with them and tell them I was completely against them stricking their child in my presence and if I ever saw any marks on him I would report them. It was such a slippery slope because I am supposed to be culturally sensitive and saying "I think you people are maniacs" would have surely gotten me fired. I tried to gently offer them alternatives, but they adamently refused.

There child displayed a number of heartbreaking stress-related behaviors including nail biting and pulling out his own hair-HE WAS TWO! We (me and the staff) knew these behaviors were directly linked to their choice of punishment but they refused to believe us.

Interestingly enough, this mother and I had the same doula, so I hear updaets on her occasionally. She has since had another child (yikes)


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## Magnoliamama (Apr 20, 2004)

I say, "oh-- the Ezzo book? Gosh, have you heard about the controversy surrounding that book? Did you know that parents have starved their babies by following his method? It's just a scary concept to me - starving my baby, so I don't want to have anything to do with it" -- I kind of play it like I heard it on E! or something so that I don't sound like I"m preaching - but yet I keep on with a couple of more examples so that at least I get my point across. And hopefully they listen.


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## BeansEemie (Jul 23, 2004)

I love that Magnoliamama. Because, well there is controversy, and that way of sharing information makes it more approachable. I am wary of invoking the AAP, given their stance on other issues, namely co-sleeping. I would rather just say, this is what I heard. Let them hear it, and try to let it go.

Not that I could do that, mind you. I just like the idea. I have never actually spoken with someone who practices those methods, I have only read about them. My reaction would more likely be stammering nonsense, straight from my gut.


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## fluffernutter (Dec 8, 2002)

Luckily no one has ever brought up the Ezzos or Pearls around me. My mom used Dobson's methods on us though. I vividly remember being spanked with wooden spoons as a child. There's video of me on my third birthday getting my 'birthday spankings' from my grampa. I was crying because I though I was in trouble. How sad is that!?







Of course, my whole family thinks it's just the funniest thing. Yuck.

My mom was also telling me about how when we were toddlers she used to sit us down at the table. She'd put a cookie (or something else she knew we'd want) on the table in front of us. Then if we tried to grab it she's swat us on the hand. This was how she taught us to sit quietly in church (and other places). She was so proud to have the only young children in the church who were well behaved enough to sit in the service. uke


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Can someone give me a little overview of what Dobson is all about?

I once accidentally bought one of his books.... I was at the used bookstore and went a little crazy with the parenting books (his name didn't ring a bell at the time). I got home and read the back, and realized he was president of that foundation (forget the name) and immediately put it in the "trade" stack.

Well, first I looked at his chapter on homosexuality. :LOL That was good for a laugh! He has a great understanding of homosexuality.... not!!!!

Anyway, what is the basic gist of Dobson's method?


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## baybones (Mar 30, 2004)

My skin crawls when I think of Ezzo. My mom had given me the Babywise book when my first son was born. I was obsessed to know when other people's babies were sleeping through the night. I never really followed his plan because I felt so bad letting my baby cry it out. I tried letting him cry it out on a few occassions and it felt so wrong. I was always embarrassed to tell people that he was still sleeping with me and nursing. Of course back then, I thought he had to quit nursing when he was 12 months and weaned him straight to a bottle at about 16 months.......LOL, oh the things I've learned. I was a young momma (19) and I spent my first year as a mom feeling inadequate because of not being able to put Ezzo's principles into practice.

Before having my 2nd child, I moved a couple of states away from my hometown and met a very crunchy momma who took me to an LLL meeting where I met all these women who mothered the same way I had been mothering (except I was hiding in the closet and they were open about it). I was so excited to know that it's ok to do those things such as cosleep, extended breastfeeding, antivax, etc. What a relief to find out that I wasn't a failure after all.

WHen I run into people who want to talk about Ezzo, I basically tell my story if I know them and if I don't know them well, I tell them about the media alert and the babies starving, etc.

Sarah


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

The dobson method basically centers on spanking. He does have creative parenting ideas mingled in with it occaisionally, which is why he is so popular. I was raised on his books - even read them as a kid so I could figure out what my parents were doing. I read the Pearls book while pregnant. It was during my research on breastfeeding that I learned about gentle discipline and I finally figured out why I have so much anger towards my parents - I always have. They were always calm and 'loving' when they spanked us, but I still remember seething with hate and being so angry that they just didn't talk to me about what I did wrong. I was the kind of kid that would have listened without the spanking. I guess it made me a great rule follower - grew up to run off and join a cult for a while! After getting free from all that (shortly after dd was born) my husband and I have questioned everything - that's when I re-examined my thoughts on punative parenting.

As far as how I answer others on all these topics, I give copies of an Ezzo warning brochure out to any friend I even hear of to be pregnant - try to get to them before the Ezzo-ites!

http://www.ezzo.info/trifoldbrochure.pdf


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## Envision (Dec 6, 2002)

I encourage an actual conversation why they are chosing those authors. They might have already read or been trying some AP parenting and didn't feel it was working for them so are looking for other ideas...and perhaps you can find something that is more for them.
I was one of these parents and found it and still get upset when I am made to feel like a bad mother because I decided to try some ideas that worked for me but came from someone who doesn't support AP parenting.
We sometimes forget that there are extreames on both ends of the spectrum and sometimes people are just looking for new ideas and something that will work for their family, which don't have to include starving your baby or CIO or spanking just because you read a certain author.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Can someone give me a little overview of what Dobson is all about?

The thing that always comes to mind with Dobson....He says that pain is a purifier









He also compares parenting to training a dog, and describes how he beat his dachsund into submission (no, he didn't use the word "beat"....)
Have I got the correct







here, or was that one of the other ones?

As for my acquaintance, after posting and talking to a few friends, I've decided to find a Christian article that is anti-ezzo, and also one that describes the feeding controversy, and offer these to the mama. I think I will just say "When you mentioned the book, I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was, but I knew that I heard heard the name and some sort of controversy. Ijust had a bad feeling. So I looked it up, and found some articles you might want to look at."

Sound good?


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I dunno about Dobson - my parents listened to him RELIGIOUSLY and they never spanked.

Quote from my dad, though: "about 10 years ago he started getting weirder and weirder and then he went off the deep end, I wouldn't listen to a word he says now."

If CIO or Ezzo come up (rare, because almost everyone in my family and DH's family co-sleep, bf, etc), I just say that it seems so cruel and I could never do that. Since I have very well-behaved almost-5yo and 3yo kids, I have never been told that I am going to spoil them. When they were younger I would just say something like "we don't do that" and leave it at that. I feel more confident now that they're a little older and obviously are neither stuck on me all day nor spoiled rotten.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Oldfashionedmama--
Please read the sticky at the top of the forum. This is a gentle discipline forum, and posts that advocate corporal punishment are not allowed here (or on MDC at all, for that matter).

Ok, so thanks to the links posted here, I've got a tri-fold pamphlet, a statement from an MD explaining the dangers of the parent-directed-feeding (and its opposition to the aap recommendation), and an article from Christianity Today that lists many concerns about Ezzo's books and recommendations. Thanks!


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## waxwoman (Oct 28, 2003)

Just as a note, Ezzo was only excommunicated once. He left 3 churches under a cloud, two of the times related to his books.

His publisher also dropped him. He now self publishes his books. That's a pretty strong move for a publisher to take when the book was raking in plenty of profits.

Jenn


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

I've never read Ezzo personally or Dobson, but I was given Shepherding a Child's Heart by Tripp. It said we should spank our children and tell them G-d told us too!!!! I never read any further, what crap! That is one way to turn a child off of our faith faster than a cat runs from being sprayed with water!

A woman at our church gave me this book for a shower gift with number 2. This from the same group of ladies who were discussing their spoons one evening. I had no idea what they were talking about, then I realized they carry a wooden spoon for spanking everywhere they go!!! "Hands are for lovin', spoons are for spankin'" -- crap ohla again. I couldn't believe I missed this lesson in child rearing and survived with a gentle gracious well behaved 3 yr old boy! I guess she thought since I was in the dark about spooning children as punishment, then I needed to read this book.


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## waxwoman (Oct 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikirj*
I dunno about Dobson - my parents listened to him RELIGIOUSLY and they never spanked.

I can see how that *could* happen--he actually is fairly moderate when it comes to the spanking advocates. He says you really shouldn't be spanking a child before the child is 18 months old, and that spankings should be reserved for serious infractions. Still not *my* cup of tea, and I really pray that someday the world will come to have more respect for children...but not as bad as Pearl who thinks you should use "the rod" for training--i.e. set the child up to misbehave, then strike the child; or Tripp, who defines an 8 month old struggling during a diaper change as willfully defiant and in need of corporal punishment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nikirj*
Quote from my dad, though: "about 10 years ago he started getting weirder and weirder and then he went off the deep end, I wouldn't listen to a word he says now."

Ummmm, yeah! What's with EVERYTHING being about homosexuality? 5 year old boys should shower with their father because seeing Daddy's penis will have prevent the little boy from becoming homosexual (we're pretty loose about nudity in our house, but this one had us in hysterics). Dobson has become a running joke in our house. We have two daughters then two sons. Recently we ran out of "Toy Story" pull ups for our son, and we had some Disney Princess pull ups left over from back when our second DD was wearing them, so we used them for our son for a day. Every time we would have to get a new one out we'd say "oh no, don't tell Dobson, Jason is headed straight to a life of confusion over gender issues and homosexuality!"

Jenn


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Hate Dobson, Loathe Ezzo and can't even fathom the Pearl's.

That said (and I am not advocating anything here) I want to make it clear the for most people CIO and Ezzo feeding have NOTHING to do with each other.

I am not saying CIO is right just that most CIO advocates (AAP etc) fully and totally advocate feeding on demand.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Electra375, get this, my sister broke a wooden spoon on her 6 year old son tonight and she "only smacked him once" with it.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Electra375*
I guess she thought since I was in the dark about spooning children as punishment

When I hear the word "spooning" I think of snuggling. Sad to think that some children will think of being beaten when they hear this term, that for me is so full of warmth and love.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Quote from my dad, though: "about 10 years ago he started getting weirder and weirder and then he went off the deep end, I wouldn't listen to a word he says now."
That's really interesting. My parents were Dobson readers -- they spanked rarely and not abusively. (I know some consider any spanking abusive, but I certainly didn't feel abused and have no resentment toward my parents about the spanking.) Or home was loving and nurturing. So my impression of Dobson has always been only mildly negative. I've chosen not to spank, but my biggest beef with him (even as a young teen) has always been his stereotyping of gender roles.







: I haven't payed a bit of attention to him since I was a teenager, so I wasn't aware he'd gotten more "out there".

For anyone who has Christian friends who respect Dobson (perhaps his older, "less weird" titles?), it may be helpful to make them aware that Dobson's organization "Focus on the Family" has put out a statement in which they discourage people from following Ezzo's methods because of the physical danger they expose babies to, and because of Ezzo's questionable credentials as an upstanding Christian. They throw "happy" Ezzo followers a bone at the beginning







but it gets pretty negative after that. Here's a link. http://www.ezzo.info/Focus/FOTF_9-04.htm


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## texcalkas (May 12, 2004)

I am familiar with all of the people being discussed and have read all of their books and seen the accompanying videos. Regardless of all we've read, whether we agree with the methods or not, we've done what works with our two children.

With Ezzo I would like to thank the couple for keeping me sane in those first few months with DS. I put him on a schedule right away but also co-slept, wore him in a sling and attended LLL meetings. I wanted him to fit into my life and for me, cannot imagine being at his beck and call 24 hours a day. DD did not conform to a rigid schedule as well as DS but we eventually figured each other out. One of the Ezzos videos is about breastfeeding and goes into more detail than I heard at most LLL meetings.

We (DH and I) have read enough of James Dobsons, the Pearls and To Train Up a Child to know we could never carry them out to the enth degree. That's what I would say to anyone asking about them. If the person was level headed I'd say go for it. If they are fickle, unsure of themselves or given to extremes, I'd discourage it. Case in point...an acquaintance I know took the Ezzos video course and went clear off the far end with it. She did not successfully breastfeed which may or may not be attributed to the video. She told me that if she had a boy she wouldn't even try nursing him because she didn't want him to be too attached to her! So, her thinking was scewed to begin with.

My opinion about all child rearing methods is use you head...use your best judgement...use what works for that individual child. No one method knows your child and will work for all of your children.

Kimberly


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

The Pearl philosophy is that children shouls be trained in the same way that animals are trained. Pain.
They fail to mention that animals that are trained like that often turn...
The Ezzo method had ended up in more than a few cases of "failure to thrive" and several deaths...
When people mention "Train up a Child" to me, I usually tell them my parenting methods are almost exactly opposity of that.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I want to make it clear the for most people CIO and Ezzo feeding have NOTHING to do with each other.
I'm not sure about that. I just finished reading a long debate on another board where people argued that Ezzo's book is a sleep training manual and that's all they use it for.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Most of my friend IRL use CIO. However, NONE allow their child to cry until they have been sated with bf and/or food.

I am not advocating CIO. And certainly Ezzo and his followers may allow hungry kids to cry. But most CIO advocates would in no way support this (e.g. Weisbluth)

But so that the facts are clear Ezzo's methods are clearly out of the mainstream.


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## tuhraycee (Dec 3, 2004)

I have a friend who has her daughter on a feeding schedule, but she formula feeds so I wasn't sure if that was normal or not.

Recently she told me that when her DD stays with her grandmother (great grandmother to the baby), she will go 8+ hours without giving her a bottle!!! My friend doesn't want to cause "problems", so she won't say anything.

I have a hard time discussing major parenting differences with friends. It's a very sensitive subject, especially when their families preach a completely opposite point of view.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

No one I know seems to have heard of the Ezzo method, thank goodness.
I want to clarify a bit about Dr. James Dobson, since I do know a fair bit about him. Dobson does have some good things to say, and has changed a lot of his thinking since the original "Dare to Discipline" books came out. Much less punishment type stuff. He edited it and rereleased it as "The New Dare to Discipline" and...I own it. I don't use corporal punishment on my child - nor do I punish him. Dobson does advocate some punishment on older children. He does NOT advocate spanking as a cure-all, though. I think his ideas about the parent asserting authority are quite good, and important. But the parent as the authority figure are part of my belief system, so that might not work for some people.
ANYWAYS, when I have discussions with others who have different parenting ideas than I do - and right now that's just other parents with young children - (such as the many friends I have who jump all over their young toddlers whenever they do something 'wrong') I usually gently remind them that children are children and it's important to realize that they don't understand the difference between right and wrong, nor can they resist the temptation to explore and touch things. Doesn't matter how many times you slap his hand, it's not going to teach your 11 month old reason. It's just going to make him fear your touch.
It usually makes them think it over a bit.


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## bravofrenchie (Oct 15, 2004)

It would be extremly hard for me to have a polite, mature discussion with anyone on The Pearls. If someone were telling me things like this, it would be all I could manage to not smack some sense into them. This is from their website: http://nogreaterjoy.org/

"The other home is continuously cheerful and ordered because the parents have trained, occasionally using the switch in the training sessions, and have been consistent to demand complete and uninterrupted obedience."

"Yet the flesh of the child stands in opposition to the law of the mind. The flesh of a child, just like the flesh of an adult, wants to indulge. The bodily appetites care nothing for the rule of law or for the needs of others. The flesh wants to be first, get the most, get it all, keep it to the self, and damn anyone who gets in the way. All flesh is self-gratifying and self-consuming. Your child is a living soul in a body of corruptible flesh. When the mind of the child understands duty and knows what it ought to do the flesh still cries out for fulfillment. Your child does not have the strength to do what he knows he ought. Shades of Romans 7."

"If you are seeking to avoid the rod because you are an emotional coward or you are a product of contemporary philosophy, then not obeying God in this matter should not be considered an option. The Word of God teaches us the best method of child training, and proper use of the rod is a part of that program. Furthermore, if you abstain from use of the rod because you believe there is a better way, then you have revealed a fundamental flaw in your thinking that will leave a giant hole in any method you adopt."

'"Please give me a description of the switch or rod of which you so often speak. I wish you could send me one so I could see it."
-The rod we speak of is a plumbing supply line that can be bought at any hardware store or large department store. It is a slim, flexible, plastic tubing that supplies water to sinks, and toilets. Ask for "¼ inch supply line." They cost less than one dollar. I always give myself one swat before I swat the child to remind myself how much force to exert. It stings the skin without bruising or damaging tissue. It's a real attention geter. Michael demonstrates its use in our new Seminar videos.'

"You must remember, children raised under the best of circumstances, in a home of love and security, are nonetheless inclined to selfish domination and independent action against the rule of law. If a child is "left to himself" he does not grow up beautiful, he grows up to be a little devil and will "bring his mother to shame (Prov. 29:15)."


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Well, I gave her the info--but only the article from Christianity Today. It kind of addressed both sides, so at least she will be informed. It seemed like the resouce she would be most receptive to reading/accepting.

And she is still talking to me








. Didn't even seem offended!


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

What I am about to say might get me kicked out of here. I breastfed my son for a whole year AND I used the Babywise method. I had stayed away from the book for 2 months after he was born because of what I HEARD about the book. I had so many of my friends using it talking about it loving it AND hating it, I decided the ONLY way to know for sure was TO READ IT MYSELF. Until you read THE WHOLE BOOK I don' t think you should be able to have an opinion about a method you don't fully understand. It really worked for myself and my son. He nursed VERY WELL. It is more of a sleeping and schedule book than a feeding book. MOST formula fed babies are put on a schedule for eating and sleeping, and I for one, was glad that someone wrote a book that was made for breastfed babies.
My son never starved, gained weight very well, and also slept very well.
If he had not thrived I would have choosen a differnet method. I know some friends that this book was all that kept them breastfeeding in the first place. Which I think is a VERY GOOD THING.
My belief is that every family and every child has to find what works for them. For some it is AP and Womanly Art, for others Babywise works great.
PLEASE before you form an opinion and judge - READ THE BOOK for yourself.... then decide.... as for Train up a child - which I have read - I AGREE with all of you here.... stay as far away as you can!
That's my 2 cents for what it is worth....

Julia


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

Due to circumstances beyond my control (limited knowledge), I formula fed my son and it became is sole source of food at 3 mo old. I fed him on demand. I'm not a scheduled person myself. I don't agree with scheduling infants for feedings regardless of method breast or formula. When they are hungry they need to eat, if they need you for comfort, they need you. As a mother, I feel very strongly that it is my loving duty to see to their needs whether physical or emotional are net. Infants do not understand 'wait it isn't time yet'. How would you feel if you were truly hungry and you were told, no you can't eat now, it isn't time. Infants are primal in their needs, hungry is a primal survival skill. Feeding on schedule can lead to poor eating habits and fat adults, it's time to eat, let's eat whether we are hungry or not.
When a method of parenting is based on 'scheduling' rather than meeting their needs, I can not agree with it.
I've never had to 'schedule' my children to sleep. We sleep, they sleep and they slept with us as infants. Did they sleep through the night? By the AAP standard of 5 hours being sleeping through the night -- yes, my bf children slept through the night rather quickly. My formula guy ate every 2 hours regardless of time of day.
All of these child rearing ideas came about when parents started removing infants from their 24/7 care. The family bed surely does resolve a lot of night time issues, b/c those issues become non-issues. And bfing on demand cues falls nicely into place w/ other AP ideas. The sling, close contact, increase intuitiveness, comfort, able to bf on demand.
Do my children have independent issues, no. Do my children have eating or sleeping issues, no (except the oldest fixes himself food, when he is hungry note he is 6). Do my children crave more attention from me as a result of being held more as infants, no, they play quite nicely by themselves all day if I let them.
My method of parenting and 'discipline' came about from just figuring out what worked. I never read a book how to be a parent, I never read how to raise my children and certainly never read a book on discipline. How in the world did mother's before us(a couple hundred years ago) manage without all the modern methods and books to tell us what to do?








Intuition prevails...


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

"MOST formula fed babies are put on a schedule for eating and sleeping, and I for one, was glad that someone wrote a book that was made for breastfed babies. " by jkstewart mom

The way breastmilk is digested is completely different from formula, so comparing breastfed babies to formula fed babies is like comparing apples to oranges.

Here's an article that says it better than I can:
http://www.breastfeeding.com/advocacy/ezzo_fied.html

Here's a part of that article:
"In the case of breastfed infants, the practice of limiting feeds by the clock in the early months can lead to breastfeeding difficulties, low weight gain, or even dehydration. Jan Barger of Illinois, R.N., M.A., an international board certified lactation consultant and current editor of CLINICAL ISSUES IN LACTATION, says that many infants need to nurse more frequently than every three hours: "It goes without saying that scheduling feeds, especially the way they schedule them, is potentially dangerous to breastfeeding." Debby Kearney, a Florida-based lactation consultant and president of the Florida Lactation Consultant Association, agrees with Barger: "If you look at any medical book on breastfeeding--just pick one--you aren't going to find one that suggests this kind of limited feeding."


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Julia - you are lucky, your breasts had plenty of capacity to store enough milk for scheduled feedings. However, many women are not so luck - their breasts need to be emptied more often than Ezzo recommends, and end up not producing enough milk due to a schedule. The LLL, AAP and other health sources are not just simply making up the failure-to-thrive concerns with this tactic - it is quite valid. Women's breasts have different storage capacity and operate on a supply-and-demand principle, and most women need to feed their babies on demand in order for their bodies to understand what the baby's nutritional requirements are and produce enough milk.

Ezzo also gives medical advice in his books that he is not qualified to give, and that is incorrect. For example :

"...Healthy, full-term babies typically are born with the capacity to achieve seven to eight hours of continuous nighttime sleep between seven and nine weeks. Whether or not your child achieves this is determined predominately by the philosophy you adopt for feeding..."

"From birth onward, infant hunger patterns will either become stable and regular or move towards inconsistency. "

"How often you should feed your baby depends on your baby's age. As a general rule, during the first two months you will feed your baby approximately every 2 1/2 to 3 hours from the beginning of one feeding to the beginning of the next."

What Ezzo's program ALSO fails to address is that different babies have different needs. My DS went from 8 lbs at birth to 27 lbs at 1 year of age. His nutritional requirements are going to be vastly different from a female baby who weighed 6 lbs at birth and 17 lbs at 1 year of age. One woman's breasts may be able to store enough milk to feed the latter baby at scheduled intervals, but wouldn't be able to do that for the first example.

Many of us also feel that the "CIO" approach to feeding is flawed in that it discourages the baby from communicating; discourages the mother from attaching properly by responding to cries; and can lead to a child that is not properly atached to its mother, which is the primary emotional task of a child in the first year.

I'm glad you found something that worked for you. However, spreading the word that this is a good approach would be irresponsible; there are many, many case studies and stories of women for whom this program did NOT work. There are many valid health concerns for people who want to use this book.


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
Until you read THE WHOLE BOOK I don' t think you should be able to have an opinion about a method you don't fully understand.

I have read the whole book myself and I know people who have gone to classes to help them better implement this program. I understand it very well, and I feel it is morally wrong to leave a baby crying to teach them anything.

Quote:

My belief is that every family and every child has to find what works for them. For some it is AP and Womanly Art, for others Babywise works great.
In my opinion, a "solution" that leaves one member of a family alone and screaming isn't working for that family.

Why do you assume that no one here has read the book? It is quite possible to read the book and completely disagree.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Don't know if this will much help, probably depends on your audience, but whenever I see books advocating discipline, I always go back to management theory (OK - I have an MBA, it's how I think).

Current management theory doesn't talk anything about how to discipline employees. That went out in the 50's. It used to be all about lazy employees, how they had to watched all the time, how to discipline them and "create consequences" for their laziness. But current theory doesn't view employees and lazy with management as oversight. It's much less adversarial than it used to be. Not to suggest that this isn't happening at a lot of places, just that it isn't taught in b. schools.

So lately I've been thinking, why do we continue to see children as adversarial, lazy, needing to be molded? Punishment and discipline aren't part of the rhetoric of modern management theory and I don't think they have any place in modern child-rearing. Honestly, conversations about child-rearing practices don't come up much in my life, so I haven't actually used this argument with anyone. It just keeps going through my head.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

I agree ( and said in my last post) that not ALL babies are right for the babywise program. I understand about Breastmilk and formula digesting differently, I understand breast size and milk production differs too.

I don't think everyone should do this method ... but not everyone can do the AP or Womanly Art approach either. My only point was that every family and child has different needs, and as a natural family (us) this happened to really work well for us.

I NEVER let my son scream himself to sleep (the book does not advocate that), I never was not there for him when he needed comforting (the book does condone leaving them when they need you), and I never let him go hungry (I watched to see when he was hungry). I used the book as a guide, not the final word in how I delt with my son.

I am a rational college educated natural mother, who was searching for answers and after reading ALL the books, this particular one helped.
BTW - I tried cosleeping and lying down to nurse and all that, and my son did not like it - did not take to it, so I LISTENED to HIM and found something that did work. He was/ is a happy healthy well fed well rested little boy. This book was not my bible (nor should it be to anyone)

My only point, was that for some, this works great, and we need to understand that. All mothers and families are different, and one method is not better or worse than the other.... We all do what we think is the best for our children, none of us are out there purposely trying to hurt our kids...

We need to support ALL mothers (BF or FF) doing all types of systems ( AP or BW) living in all types of situations (married single partnered).

That was all I was trying to say...
Peace, Julia

P.S. The reason I believed that "some/most" people had not read the book was due to the fact that in their posts they said " I have not read the book"


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Wow

I just read a portion of the "Pearls" wisdom. Holy cow. How can people hit babies? They're babies!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
I agree ( and said in my last post) that not ALL babies are right for the babywise program. I understand about Breastmilk and formula digesting differently, I understand breast size and milk production differs too.

I don't think everyone should do this method ... but not everyone can do the AP or Womanly Art approach either. My only point was that every family and child has different needs, and as a natural family (us) this happened to really work well for us.

I NEVER let my son scream himself to sleep (the book does not advocate that), I never was not there for him when he needed comforting (the book does condone leaving them when they need you), and I never let him go hungry (I watched to see when he was hungry). I used the book as a guide, not the final word in how I delt with my son.


Well, if you didn't stick to a pretty rigid schedule, didn't let your baby cry himself to sleep, and listened to his hunger cues, it doesn't sound like you were doing BabyWise.

"While 2 1/2 to 3-hour feedings are a healthy norm, there may be occasions when you might feed sooner. But take heed. Consistently feeding exclusively at 1 1/2 to 2 hour intervals may wear a mother down....As stated, there will be times when you might nurse sooner than 2 1/2 hours, but that should not be the norm."

"The number of feedings in a 24 hour period will be seven to nine before your baby is sleeping through the night, and seven to eight feedings afterwards. You may need to maintain a seventh or eighth feeding period for four to five days after your baby initially begins sleeping through the night. Sticking close to a 2 1/2 hour to 3 hour routine will help facilitate that goal....Most PDF moms are comfortable alternating between a 2 1/2- and 3 1/2-hour routine, getting in six good nursing periods."

"...The point is this: it's okay to deviate from the 2 1/2- to 3-hour feeding norm. But do not deviate so often that you establish a new norm."

"Remember the basic rule: feed every 2 1/2 to 3 hours after the beginning of the last feeding. Then the baby needs waketime, which is followed by naptime. "

"When your baby awakens, don't rush right in to him or her. Any crying will be temporary, lasting from five to forty-five minutes."

"Your baby's disposition can be happy and content when you follow three basic rules for naps.

Rule 1: Mom, not baby, decides when the nap starts.

Rule 2: Mom, not baby, decides when the nap ends.

Rule 3: If your baby wakes up crying or cranky, it's most often because he or she has not had sufficient sleep. Other factors to consider are a dirty diaper, a noisy neighbor, sickness coming on, or an arm or leg stuck between the crib slats."

In addition, Ezzo recomends a feeding schedule of 8-9 feeds per day for a newborn, which is not enough for most babies. According to Ezzo, parents should decide when baby should eat, because "babies are not capable of regulating their hunger patterns".


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
"When your baby awakens, don't rush right in to him or her. Any crying will be temporary, lasting from five to forty-five minutes."

As opposed to permanent?









I am so bothered by the idea of mom decided when/how much baby eats. I mean, giving dd control (from birth) of how much and when she eats has always been a really important concept to me. So, he says that babies are incapable of regulating their hunger patterns. That seems laughable to me, because that is kind of the only thing babies do expertly: eat!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
As opposed to permanent?









I am so bothered by the idea of mom decided when/how much baby eats. I mean, giving dd control (from birth) of how much and when she eats has always been a really important concept to me. So, he says that babies are incapable of regulating their hunger patterns. That seems laughable to me, because that is kind of the only thing babies do expertly: eat!

I wonder if rigid feeding schedules have a link with obesity. When babies are fed by a schedule rather than when they're hungry, wouldn't it teach them to ignore their hunger cues? Just thinking out loud. We know formula fed babies tend toward obesity more than those fed nature's way, they could all be interconnected.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

KristiMetz - What you listed from the books sounds about right. Braden ate every 2 hours (for ten feedings a day) - Also I started him at 2 months not newborn.

I didn't say anywhere in my post that I thought it should be followed to a tee.

What I learned from the book was how much sleep my son should have, and that sometimes when babies cry it is for other reasons than hunger. Yes, you should meet those needs, but often times it has nothing to do with being hungry.

The parts of the book you left out were about how to have a HAPPY healthy baby by making sure his/her needs were met.

I didn't say that everyone should up and do the methods in this book, and I know that my opinion on this website is in the minority, MY ONLY POINT was that when used correctly with common sense, for some families this is a great and helpful program. And just as Attachment mothers would want others to view what they do with understanding and a benefit of the doubt attitute, I was suggesting that we in the natural community try and do the same with beliefs that are different than our own.

I will say it again, if I thought that my son suffered at all, or was not thriving or was not eating enough or was not happy I would have moved on and found something that worked.

It just happens that this worked for us , and it does for many familes, and should not be treated as pure evil.

We don't have to agree with decisions others make, but we can surely step into their shoes just for a minute, and realize there might be some good in all types of parenting styles.

- Julia


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*

I am so bothered by the idea of mom decided when/how much baby eats. I mean, giving dd control (from birth) of how much and when she eats has always been a really important concept to me. So, he says that babies are incapable of regulating their hunger patterns. That seems laughable to me, because that is kind of the only thing babies do expertly: eat!


ITA. The ONE place that a CHILD absolutely positively MUST be in control is over the amount of food they partake. Every good nutritionist will tell you this.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

It is true that babies are their best experts on when to eat. What has not been mentioned here is when babies nurse for other reasons. Sometimes this can lead to snacking, instead of a full meal. When books talk about parent directed/lead feeding the first step for the parent is to watch and record what the babies feeding habits are, and then guide them with that information. It by no means suggest you are supposed to guess how often your baby should nurse. I watched for two months, and could tell the difference between hunger and a real feeding and when he needed something different.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

It is healthier by far for people of all ages to 'snack' consistently throughout the day instead of taking in large meals. Our bodies work much better, our chemicals are much more stable, when we eat at a steady pace rather than the standard US-three-times-a-day-binge.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

jkstewart








nikirj


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
MY ONLY POINT was that when used correctly with common sense, for some families this is a great and helpful program.

julia -- first of all i commend you for being willing to state your opinion, albeit unpopular. that takes courage.

i have a friend who used babywise and said the exact same thing as you about using common sense. if babywise needs a disclaimer -- "use only if you have common sense" -- i see it as a dangerous book.

the concern i have is that many people are lacking in common sense, esp when it comes to having a new baby and their life is in total upheaval. there are messages coming from every direction about how to feed/change/bathe/etc. it's such a confusing time. common sense kinda goes out the window.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

i have a friend who used babywise and said the exact same thing as you about using common sense. if babywise needs a disclaimer -- "use only if you have common sense" -- i see it as a dangerous book.
I have to agree with this, since the result of those who have *not* used common sense has often been grave danger to the baby's health. That said, I also respect and appreciate your willingness to share your experience, Julia.

I think it's important to note that just about every book regarding baby care requires common sense. I have a couple of friends who started out as AP devotees, but gave up on AP because it "didn't work". When I talk to them further about it, it nearly always turns out that they missed the point about AP (which is listening to your baby and meeting his/her needs, IMO) and followed the "how to" part slavishly. They never left the baby's side even when they were about to crack under the stress, or they continued to try to wear their baby in a sling long after it became clear the child hated it, or they took the advice to make "no's" infrequent to a crazy extreme and became fearful of *ever* saying "no". You get the idea. The end result was that they "quit" AP and went mainstream. One even started spanking!







Bottom line, parents who are low on self confidence are in danger of taking any method as the "ultimate" word on child rasing. The critical differece with Ezzo or the Pearls is that 1) they claim their way is God's way -- thus upping the stakes for parents who care about that and 2) following their advice to the letter can lead to child abuse. That's a huge difference, and reason enough to condemn the books IMO.


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
Until you read THE WHOLE BOOK I don' t think you should be able to have an opinion about a method you don't fully understand.
Julia

I did read the whole book and I think sometimes that my ds didn't nurse well in the beginning of our nursing relationship as some divine intervention so I wouldn't use the methods.

All of my colleagues used the methods adn praised Ezzo as some kind of God. So, of course, being naive and all, I got the book and read it. I remember being a bit stressed out over the whole thing while pregnant too. I was worried that my baby wouldn't "do what the book said he/she should do" I remember writing down a little schedule for my baby who wasn't even born.
Also, not being a mother yet, I didn't look at all the cio as too bad either. Heck, Ezzo said I would be a "good mother" by doing what he preached. He has this scenario that he writes about throughout his book about one child that is raised on his methods and another child that is fed on demand and is seen as a poor child whose parents are basically doing evil by not parenting her in the way he advocates. He even blasted Attatchment Parenting so much in his book that I wouldn't let my mother buy me a sling before ds was born because Ezzo said that they were "not good".

But thankfully, my mother intuition kicked in and I couldn't even imagine using his methods. Now that I had a child in my arms, his methods seemed cruel and unusual punishment. My ds didn't nurse for the first 14 days and then the next 3-4 months were very difficult in terms of nursing so I couldn't even imagine trying to make him go on a schedule. I just wanted him to nurse, and I didn't care how or why! When things were better with us nursing wise I remember revisiting the book, just looking at it and reading some passages and KNEW that this wasn't the way babies were meant to be parented. That the way I was parenting thus far, which was natural, was the way I should be parenting and threw out the book!

So, yah, I read the book, planned on implenting the methods, and realized that it was a bunch of garbage. I'm really glad that things worked out for you. But coincidentally every one of the woman that I know that have used Ezzo didn't nurse past 1 year. Not one of them. Most of them actually stopped nursing at 6 months or so when Ezzo said that they should only be nursing 4 times a day - 8 am, 12pm, 4pm, and 8 pm. They all experienced supply dips and couldn't keep up?????hmmmmmmmm

And oh, yes, cio and feeding are directly related with Ezzo. You let your baby CRY IT OUT until their next scheduled feeding. How more directed can it be? CIO isn't just about sleep within the Ezzo book.

Ok, rant done.


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
I NEVER let my son scream himself to sleep (*the book does not advocate that*), I never was not there for him when he needed comforting *(the book does condone leaving them when they need you*), and I never let him go hungry (I watched to see when he was hungry). I used the book as a guide, not the final word in how I delt with my son.


I just wanted to address the bolded in that YES, Ezzo does advocate letting your child scream. He talks in detail about his wondeful little grandaughter( I forget her name and I threw out the book so I can't go and quote) that was raised on his methods. He talks about how her cries would start slow and then at around 30 minutes would hit full tilt screaming and then would finally slow down until she finally fell asleep ( uh duh, exhaustion). He talks about all of his grandchildren and their screaming/crying habits in his book. He then goes on to say that yes, this was hard on mom and dad but by 3 months old the children didn't cry at all when placed down for naps or bedtime because they knew that mom and dad meant it and that they wouldn't attend to them because they were fed, dry, and just fine. Ezzo also uses some peds to back up his theory that babies need to cry and that they won't gain any lasting harm from being left to cry for hours, yes hours. He even says to clean-up any vomit that might happen from crying and then to put baby down again for their scheduled nap or bedtime.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
I watched for two months, and could tell the difference between hunger and a real feeding and when he needed something different.

Sure....I did that too. Not all cries are a hungry cry, and most mothers will intuitively grow to learn the difference. I'm not sure what that has to do with scheduled feedings?

But, then again, nursing has other functions than feeding. It is also comfort, and sucking in and of itself. I guess a paci can be substituted for the sucking, but a parent who choses not to use a paci should not ignore the need for sucking--even if the baby is not hungry. Babies might also nurse heavily/often when they are teething or sick, I recall (been weaned a while here...). Also true needs to nurse, imo, even if not hungry....


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

1. Thank you to those who understand that I was just trying to explain my experience.

2. I didn't start any sort of schedule or program until my son was 2 months old.

3. I never had ANY nursing problems... he was a good eater right from the start... if I had any problems I most likely wouldn't have used these particular methods.

4. I am not a fundamentalist christian, so I only read the book to know what all of the fuss was about, not because I thought anyone was a god.

5. My son never screamed or threw up - if he did I would have quit... I think that is just common sense.

6. I don't believe that just because a book says something that it makes it true. All baby books are just other peoples suggestions and opinions.

7. I knew moms who used BW and didn't have a good go of it - and in my opinion should have tried other methods.

8. I also new moms that said they finally had a peaceful and happy baby in their house after using BW.

9. I understand that alot of research says that AP is/might/may be better - I myself knew that although my son slept better alone - he liked being in his sling - so I carried him with me everywhere.

10. I took a balanced approach to what advice I heeded, not just one side of the coin. Some of the things I did were mainstream, some were to the left.

11. I understand that some woman who use BW quit breastfeeding at 6 months - but remember some woman may not have breastfed at all if they didn't like what the AP books were telling them... you have to think of that.

12. My son was feeding 5-6 times a day around 6months and I didn't freak or worry that we weren't "doing it right" I understand that the book was a guideline.

13. My son weaned himself a few days before his 1st birthday - I was willing to go as long as he wanted - but after many days of his refusal to nurse at all - I LISTENED TO HIM - and didn't offer again, and he never asked...

14. For those of you who read the whole book - FINE rant all you want - I was speaking to those who had not, but posted anyway

15. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS THE END ALL BE ALL BEST METHOD!!!!!!!!!!! I am saying that even though it might have its flaws (or even dangerous issues in the hands of people who don't know any better) For the rest of us normal folks, who can use common sense, it really can help some moms ... THAT's ALL I AM SAYING - No method or book is PURE evil- and no method or book is PERFECT.

Final Thought - Then I am clamming up:
All any mom can do is the best that they can. We should understand that no mom here would do something intentional to hurt her child, there might be good reason for why she chose whatever method (BF, Formula, AP or BW) and all of us can learn from sharing experiences
- I shared because I wanted to let people know, that a natural mom could use something like BW and have a positive result. That is all - I just wanted to share my personal experience - no more -

Peace,
Julia wife of







"The Love of my Life"
Mother of







:bf Braden 06/03







William due 04/20/05
and 2 awesome








:


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

"I don't think everyone should do this method ... but not everyone can do the AP or Womanly Art approach either. My only point was that every family and child has different needs, and as a natural family (us) this happened to really work well for us. "

(I tried to do the little quote-thingie but I accidentally erased my post and I'm not sure how to do the little quote-box thing manually.)

I disagree- I beleive that everyone CAN do Dr. Sears' approach of "listen to your baby and do what works for your family."

ANY parenting book can be used by a thinking parent as a resource on child development, and adapt it to their own parenting style. The problem is that many parents DON'T think, and DO use a book as a "bible." When I give a book to expecting or new parents, I make sure it's one that won't cause harm if it's used without thinking.

I just have to comment on the Christian concept of "Spare the rod, spoil the child." The Jewish Rabbis that I've heard speak on this topic (who have read the Bible in the original Hebrew) all explain that the "rod" referred to in the Bible was used by sheep herders- not to HIT the sheep, but to point them in the right direction or to guide them.


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## carolsly (Oct 5, 2004)

I have read the Ezzo's book, and I have read several of the Pearls books. I get the NGJ magazine on a regular basis. I read the whole thing, and I use what I think is appropriate. I really love the way that the Pearls are so simple. The anti-govt. idea is beyond me.

The main stream author that I really found useful was Dr. Sears. He does not speak of religion in his books (at least not that I have seen) and he gives people several ideas on how to address situations.

I all kinds of tools. I have never hit my children or put them on a schedule, but I have used little pieces of information to help me parent. I can't name a particular one from Ezzo, but from Pearls I do use the idea that if I ask the older child to watch the younger one she has permission to keep her safe. That may mean that my 6yo drags my 2.5 year old from the back yard when she starts to eat yellow snow. My 6 yo knows that we do not hit in this house for any reason, but I can't ask my 6yo to watch the 2 year old without giving her some kind of power. This works for us.

Use what works and makes sense to you, don't use the other stuff. I don't advocate the switch option from the Pearls. I have friends who use it. As long as they don't hit my kids..they make their own decisions.

When people ask me about these authors, I tell them basically the same thing I wrote here. Use what you can and leave the rest. That is basically life.







:


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

jkstewart--I am sorry that you are not feeling "heard". I've definitely been there on a message board, and its not a good feeling









I hear you saying that there are useful ideas in the Ezzo books. My pov is, sure, but many (all?) of those ideas are in other books as well. The ideas that are actually unique to the Ezzo books (like the PDF) are the ideas that are potentially dangerous. A confident, compassionate parent would not be likely to harm their child thru strict adherence to the book. But a less confident, or less compassionate parent might. A new mama without a whole lot of alternative support, and with heavy pressure from family and church to put the baby on a schedule, for instance.

I am glad that you found a solution for your family. I believe you when you say that you did not leave your dc to scream. I am sure you are a caring, compassionate mama who knows her dc well.

That said, I believe Ezzo's teachings to be potentially harmful. I wish we could assume that all parents would use moderation and common sense, but that just isn't reality.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nursing Mother*
.....and yeah, I like his conservative bend.
























I am very conservative myself; his Focus on the Family ministry is right up my alley.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

This is sorta off topic but I gotta share this.
I started coming to MDC 2 monthes before Darlene was born. I'd just recieved Dr. Sears baby book.

Well, when Darlene was born I *KNEW* what it took to be the perfect parent. And *I* was going to be *IT*.
Breastfeed, sling, keep the tv off, dont use any of those icky baby things like swings, cribs etc.

I had low-confidence and not a lot of self-esteem with parenting ideals, so I was going to follow Dr. Sears to a TEE.

Breastfeeding I gave up on and pumped. Darlene hated the sling (at first), She would tune into the tv (yes, as a newborn) whenever it was on, dragging out the swing when I was feeling completely beaten and stressed I bawled.

I was a horrible parent. Not like the MDC moms who would NEVER put their child in a swing, or give up breastfeeding. I might as well start CIO, and bottle propping!

Then, my MW said something (repeatedly actually, just finally it clicked!) "Do what works for you both! If she likes the swing-USE IT!" (etc. etc)

I'm happy to say that I learned not everyone on MDC is that perfect parent I was idealizing (Thank god), and some do use swings and you know what, I learned what AP was on "MY" terms. Everyones terms are different.

For me, It's about loving your child, listening to him/her, putting yourself in their shoes, and doing things that make them feel safe and loved.

I bottle nurse as I call it, and learned from my mistake with bf'ing what to do diff. with this new one.
I sling her now that she likes it.
I put her in the swing when she wants it.
I co-sleep, cause we like too.

I feel I'm AP, and like I'm the perfect parent to MY child. Which is all what we are aiming for right?

So if Julia's baby and her thrived on BW, (And I mean TRULY thrived in the good sense of the word) maybe it really worked for them. AP is working for thousands of parents, despite thousands of peoples opinions that its a hassle/dangerous for the child etc.
She already said she didnt cio, etc. so thats not breaking the MDC rules, right?
And, no, I've never read the book.

Okay rant done.









(PS) In a good way you all helped make me the good mama I am today. I really think you mom's on MDC.

Peace & Love,
Katie


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

Katie~ I totally, totally agree.

I am relatively new to AP as a school of thought. I started out by instinct with DS1, and listened to some of what those around me told me. We did ok - but there was some CIO, and a great deal of frustration on my part about many things. I started visiting MDC when he was 8 months old, and loved it! I learned so much. Thought I'd be 100% perfect with Luke. Um, not so much. I felt so guilty. How could all these mamas do everything right but I couldn't?
I've gotten real with myself and decided to do what works for us. I have learned a lot from MDC/Dr. Sears and it IS making me a better mama with more successful BFing this time, and no CIO. But certain things don't always work for us - slinging all the time and 100% cosleeping. So I'm letting that go, but continuing to follow my sons' clues and respond to their needs.

Katie, I







you girl!







We are on the same page, I think. And congratulations with your new babe!


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Hehe

Thanks Christina! Your a doll ...Thank you







:


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## squintz22 (Feb 4, 2004)

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but for some reason can't help myself.....

With dd1, I had never heard of Ezzo, MDC or anything like that. We just did what worked, and she was a model baby. She was really an easy baby. So we decided to have another. And she was a higher needs baby. So I started reading everything I could and Ezzo was one of those.....(I didn't hear about the Pearls until recently and was totally disgusted and didn't hear about Dobson until I read this thread - shows what kind of bubble I live in!)

While I was reading BW, bits and pieces of it made sense. A lot of it did not. I used my common sense (which apparently a lot of the general population - not the ladies here) are lacking, and pulled out the pieces that helped.

The only thing I got from that book that helped us at all was the schedule - and I didnt' even really use that. I turned it into a routine, so she ate, played, slept. In that order, but always whenever she wanted. She thrived on that, and my bb's thanked me since she'd been using me to nurse to sleep and I was almost constantly engorged.

And I think that piece of information was probably available in other places.

So I can see how kind of following pieces of the book would be helpful, but I'm not a fan. I would never recommend this book to people, and have convinced my pg friend not to bother reading it, since I know it's not something she's really into.

I am glad I read it though, so I knew that I didn't really like it........







:


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't mean to be snarky, really I don't. But I hope someone can explain this to me. How can you put a baby on a feeding schedule and *not* deny them food when they are hungry? It seems to me that you are either feeding them when they are hungry, i.e. on demand, or you are making them wait, however long or short a time, for the next scheduled feeding. IMO, if you have a "routine" that is based on knowing when your child is naturally hungry and feeding them at those times, and if they get hungry at other times you feed them, that is not actually scheduling their feedings. How is that different than feeding on demand?







Can someone help me out with this? Because I am really confused.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Maybe some babies naturally want to eat around every 2 hours?
Mine didn't, but maybe some do?


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Famous,
I understand your wondering.
I think you were probably close with the routine. Some babies are easier led into a routine then others.
Like, (I haven't done this but a for instance):
Baby usually eats around 7:00 pm and then goes to sleep at 8:00pm to wake up at 11pm. So, distract the child with play for 15 minutes at 7:00pm so it eats at 7:15pm (No CIO) and do that over the course of a week until the child is eating on more of a schedule - eats at 8:00pm, sleeps at 9pm until midnight. Get in that groove and you have a schedule/routine.
I dont know, I'm just guessing maybe this is what they mean by scheduled feeding.

I'm kind of lucky that I'm a SAHM and Darlene's schedule is my schedule. Plus, shes fairly consistant about falling asleep for her 4 hour stretch sometime before midnight.
I do realize not everyone is so lucky, and can see how that could be a more gentle approach then letting a kid CIO til the next scheduled feeding. The above is kind of what I assumed Julia was doing.

Don't flame me, this is just my guess.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellyb*
Maybe some babies naturally want to eat around every 2 hours?
Mine didn't, but maybe some do?


Well, every 2 hours was as much as my first dd could bf without becoming ill. At first I thought she was wanting to eat every 45 min to hour, but she was then crying all of the time in between and seemed to be in pain and would spit up HUGE amounts.

Then I decided to just let her suck on my fingers and only eat every 2 hours. This seemed to make an immediate difference. She stopped crying so much and started to gain more weight.

I considered it that her demands were only to eat every 2 hours and that what she was demanding before that was to suck not to eat.

So I was trying to meet her demands not schedule her.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

maya43, I have had the same experience with my two boys. both of them *acted* hungry every hour, but if I fed them that often - or even every two hours - they really had tummy troubles. Both times I have had oversupply issues for the first few weeks and they were drinking it all! It was too much. So I have to make sure there is a two hour or so interval between feedings or else they are miserable. I didn't watch the clock exactly, but the occasional longer stretch between feedings really settled their tummies. They both had such a strong need to suck, not so much feed, but suck.
JMHO, schedules are *not* the devil. I don't stick to a rigid schedule but I have found both my kids thrive on a mostly regular schedule of waking, feeding and napping. They are much happier that way. Sometimes they need to vary that schedule, they are extra hungry or whatever. Obviously the Ezzo's 4 hr schedule is too hard on BF babies. And again, it has more to do with following baby's lead. If your baby thrives and is happy nursing on a totally random schedule, than great. If baby is screaming all the time, you need to change something.


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## Too Busy (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Well, every 2 hours was as much as my first dd could bf without becoming ill. At first I thought she was wanting to eat every 45 min to hour, but she was then crying all of the time in between and seemed to be in pain and would spit up HUGE amounts.

Then I decided to just let her suck on my fingers and only eat every 2 hours. This seemed to make an immediate difference. She stopped crying so much and started to gain more weight.

I considered it that her demands were only to eat every 2 hours and that what she was demanding before that was to suck not to eat.

So I was trying to meet her demands not schedule her.

Ditto, that. Your DD sounds just like mine.


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

So on this thread we've figured out that no one thing is perfect for every baby...which we all already knew.

I think *my* problem with Ezzo is his books suggest it is the *only* way to go. And that if you are not successful using Babywise, it is implied that you are doing it wrong. New moms are so unprepared...a book like this at the wrong time can do a lifetime of damage.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beanie Mama*
Ditto, that. Your DD sounds just like mine.

Except mine is now 11 years old!!!!!!!


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

I have been reading all of the posts since I backed out a few days ago, and
I am very happy to see the discussion that followed.

The only other thing I have to say is that Ezzo starts newborns out at feeding every 2 hours and it isn't until they are 6months that they go to 4 hours....

anyway... I think Darsmama said it best when she said that we all have to watch to see what our babies need and it may be a combination of AP and schedule or whatever.... as long as the childs needs are met, the method should not matter... okay I am done 

Julia


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

You cannot separate Babywise from it's theme of putting the baby "in it's place", of Ezzo's clear, unequivocal, unwavering message of detachment from the baby.

An intelligent person can extract wisdom from corruption, and your ability to do this does not rest on redefining corruption as effective.

If you found some bit of wisdom in Babywise, it is because you applied your own wisdom too it. It was NOT because Gary Ezzo is a wise man who wrote an intelligent respectful book.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day as someone said.

Babywise is a terribly anti AP book. It isn't just different than ap, it openly condemns the fate of parents who allow demand feeding, co sleeping, positive discipline. Ezzo is AGAINST those things. He does not say "if it works for you, your child will thrive if you respond to his every cry and feed him whenever he is hungry!". He is against it, and thinks it is harmful. Period.

Recognize what the book IS; don't identify it with what you managed to extract and apply gently from it. Your gentle interpretations are a credit to yourself. They are not a credit to Ezzo, or the babywise approach.

To the OP, I usually raise a few thoughtful points if babywise comes up IRL. "Oh I heard the AAP issued a statement of concern about his books" "Oh I heard Ezzo was asked to leave the church he started" and let people respond to that.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Well said, heartmama.


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## Too Busy (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya43*
Except mine is now 11 years old!!!!!!!









:LOL


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## Divina (Sep 13, 2003)

nak
i think some people actually do feeding on demand witin a loose routine and call it scheduled ... forsome inexperienced people, the phrase
'feeding on demand' sounds kind of scary--'demand' 'demanding' y'know?


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## mommaluv321 (Aug 14, 2004)

I completely agree w/ you heartmama. since I started reading this thread I've been doing alot of research on the subject, and I have actually read/skimmed babywise when my first dd was born and tossed it because I hated it so much ( i just didn't remember the authors name till recently) I think one of the major hurdles that needs to be overcome in AP is the justifcation of things (like swatting your baby) that have no right to be justified. most ppl have a tendancy of making excuses for things that deep down they are unsure of, because our society has ingrained in us that we can't admit failure in most things, especially not in parenting. just my 2 cents, not said very eloquently, JMHO.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Your gentle interpretations are a credit to yourself. They are not a credit to Ezzo, or the babywise approach. .

Beautifully said, heartmama!


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

Thank you, heartmama. I spend an awful lot of time in anti-Ezzo activism, online and IRL, and I just don't have the heart to debate it at MDC! This is my safe place.

Nevertheless, this thread has bothered me greatly. I am thankful for your gentle post.

I have read Babywise, Babywise 2, materials from Prep for Parenting and Growing Kids God's Way. Also the one about birth, I forget the name. I have personally had a discussion online with Anne Marie Ezzo. I've perused the GFI website. I belong to two yahoo support groups concerning Ezzoism, one is just for parents who need support after leaving Ezzo's ways. I recently left a church (actually it was more like a cult) in which every family with a baby followed Babywise.

I can not see Ezzoism and attachment parenting, co-existing in any way. I'm very surprised to find mothers at MDC, who can see some good in Ezzo's ideas!


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse*
I have personally had a discussion online with Anne Marie Ezzo.

Wow. I would love to know what you said if you don't mind sharing.


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## mommabear (Mar 5, 2002)

To heartmama and townmouse:





















Well said, thank you so much.

I cannot believe that this thread is carrying on in this capacity on Mothering. The entire Ezzo philosophy, if one can call it that, is so counter to everything this board stands for (I thought). I am truly at a loss for words. Of course we all want to feel that what we are doing is the best for ourselves and our children, but Babywise???? On Mothering???? Give me a break. I am sick.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

Why is it so difficult to imagine AP and BW being able to be blended. Yes the philosophies are completely different but I am just talking about methods. I think the human mom is quite capable of being imaginative enough to find what works best for her and her children, and if it is a blend, then so be it.

necessity is the mother of invention....

-julia


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
Why is it so difficult to imagine AP and BW being able to be blended. Yes the philosophies are completely different but...

I know I took you out of context but you answered your own question right there. Heartmama really said it the best, I'm going to just ditto her post again. It's hard for me to imagine an AP mom finding anything of value in BW because the philosophies are so different.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

No, I don't think that Babywise and AP are blendable, at all. They just...aren't...think about it, at the core of Babywise is the belief that if you practice AP, you are going to ruin your child - thus they are unblendable.

Now, tell me that scheduling and AP are blendable, and I'll believe it. But only if you leave the lunatic-ideas of Babywise out of it. Just because there's some validity to creating schedule/rhythm to your and baby's life, does not mean that the Babywise method is at all compatible with AP. And there is NO WAY in HECK I am recommending or even tolerating a book based on approximately two sentances worth of good advice and another 200 pages of absolutely disgusting misinformation and bad advice.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

I guess when I read BW I knew that there were going to be ideas that I disagreed with. I left emotion at the door and just concentrated on the method. It is very hard to explain... I wish I could do better. Alot of AP just did not work with me and my son, some of the BW stuff did. I did what worked for the both of us from both books. I just wanted to share that a natural mom, could (and did) find use/good out of BW.... Call me what you will. I felt that it was important to share my story. - Julia


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I think it's like nikirj said, scheduling and ap can blend. Gary Ezzo and ap cannot. He is fundamentally opposed to it. He says in his books that ap'ing is a BAD thing to do.

I believe that you could have pulled a schedule that works for your family out of the Babywise book. But I also think that there are better places to get the information from where you don't have to filter out so much crap.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

I guess that all I got out of the BW book was scheduling. So when I think of BW I think of just scheduling and nothing else. I guess I am just not as passionate about either method as to see good and evil in either one. - j


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

If you have to leave your emotions out of it when you read Babywise, that's not unusual, and it's typical of the detachment encouraged by the program.

I'd be very curious to hear what you thought about Babywise if you read it again, paying careful attention to how it made you feel on an attached, emotional level.


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## jkstewart (May 19, 2004)

The problem that I had with Womanly Art and all that, is since I had never had a baby before, I had NO idea what to do. Yes, I held him, and nursed him, carried him everywhere, no CIO, but I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. I would hear other mothers (ap and bw) talk about when their baby went to bed, how long they napped, how much they ate... I thought to myself, how do you know when it is time for a nap? How many naps does he need, how much sleep does he need.... Womanly Art could not answer that for me.... babywise could. What do you all think about the Baby Wisperer? To me that book was practically identical to Babywise. I never hear that getting a bad wrap... I guess if I had read Baby Wisperer first I wouldn't have even gotten to Babywise. Thinking back, I just don't remember reading anything truely cruel or horrible (the screaming until throwing up thing was about it). It just made sense to me, it clicked... go figure. Like I said before, I am not a christian, had no idea who Ezzo was, so that was no influence. I had read AP and Dr Sears (still turn to him for things today) - But in those early months... for me the best answers I got were from Babywise. I am sorry that this upsets moms here - I just thought my story would be interesting to other natural moms... It is almost like I have no home. I am not a Babywise Chruch going Christian, but yet again, I guess I am not a full fledge Mothering Mom either... maybe there is a middle of the road mom group  anyway, thanks everyone for listening and sharing.
- Julia


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

Julia, I'm pm'ing you


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I haven't read the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding in years.

I'm curious though what you mean that it "couldn't tell you" what to expect in terms of normal sleep, waking patterns?

I am sure Sears does describe normal newborn behaviour in detail. I don't know whether you read Sears, but I know his books talk about sleep, feeding cycles, the number of diapers that should be wet/soiled in 24 hours.

Does Womanly Art not talk about that?

Could it have been the tone of voice you were responding too? Were you feeling insecure during that time? I know that Ezzo has a very commanding, authoritarian "Do xyz and it will be perfect" tone. And Sears and other AP books tend to put the practical advice in between lots of encouragement to follow your gut, use your own instincts etc.

Some of what you have said comes across to me as this whole issue being not so much about what these different books said, but how they said it, and the place you were at when you read them. Am i way off?

If not I really would encourage you to read them again. You may not feel so lost now that you seem to be at a place of more confidence, with an older baby. I really do think it would be good for you to re read Babywise as well as The Baby Book by Sears. I just sense that you may go "a ha!" if you did that, and have a better sense of WHY these two philosphies are so divisive, and how much or little of Babywise is actually a reflection of your own instincts and beliefs.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

nak

IMO, Baby Whisper gives lots inaccurate breastfeeding advice as well. She also advocates sleep training. Just want get that out there. Now back to nursing my very wiggly baby.


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

Baby Whisperer horrified me. She tells parents that the sounds newborns make have no more significance than the sounds made by a puppy or kitten, by that she means they are essentially just noise. Shows how much she knows about puppies and kittens, eh. Dh read that part of the book and said she sounded like she hated babies. Very strong words from my mildmannered hubby!! She also speaks happily of a day sometime in the future when perhaps we will have genetically engineered cows to make human milk for us so none of us will have to nurse our babies.

That was enough for me, but she also advocates CIO, just without leaving the room. Well if I was crying and in need of comfort and dh just stood there next to me saying, "you're okay honey, you're ok" I'd feel so betrayed. So I dropped that book like a hot potato.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOui*
nak

IMO, Baby Whisper gives lots inaccurate breastfeeding advice as well. She also advocates sleep training. Just want get that out there. Now back to nursing my very wiggly baby.

There seems to be an abundance of misinformation about breastfeeding out there. I read a quote in Babytalk magazine from some lady (can't remember her or her book's name, it was one I hadn't heard of before) and she was saying not to worry about nipple confusion, that was only an issue for babies who had latching difficulties. She advocated giving bottles right away, I believe, in order to acclimate them to them.







:

I guess the moral to the story is that you should only get breastfeeding information from qualified personnel (LC's or LLL staff/leaders) and even then, sometimes it's iffy (from LC's, LLL Leaders all rule IMO!!!!).


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I will be looking myself, but if anyone has a specific link to what the AAP says about Babywise that they could post, I'd appreciate it. Thanks









edit: Nevermind! I had it all along! :LOL


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
Alot of AP just did not work with me and my son, some of the BW stuff did.

The thing that I'm seeing here is you giving a book credit for something YOU figured out would work for your child. You say Babywise did something, when actually it was YOU that did it. You might very well have figured it out without ever reading the book.

From what I'm understanding from the conversation, Ezzo isn't blendable b/c he refuses to admit there can be variation.

The very fact that you figured out what makes your child happiest and healthiest proves that you're being AP.

No need for you to bring BW into your description of your parenting style at all, you figured it all out and helped your child!

***
If I get into a discussion about BW I just tell them that I heard his church kicked him out, that there were problems with people following it to the letter, as I hear he intends people to do, and those facts kept me from looking into at all. And I tell them I raise my son as my mother intended to raise me...I credit the good parts of me on how she wanted to raise me and the bits that she was able to do, and I "credit" the bad/needy parts of me to the two divorces she had and utter poverty, which is what kept her from raising us exactly as she had intended.

Bringing my mom into the discussion usually shushes people who know me.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jkstewart*
The problem that I had with Womanly Art and all that, is since I had never had a baby before, I had NO idea what to do. Yes, I held him, and nursed him, carried him everywhere, no CIO, but I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. I would hear other mothers (ap and bw) talk about when their baby went to bed, how long they napped, how much they ate... I thought to myself, how do you know when it is time for a nap? How many naps does he need, how much sleep does he need....

Who *does* know what to do from the beginning? You just see what works. When other parents are talking about those things, I generally think they are pretending they know what they're doing. That's easier than wondering if I'm doing things wrong.









My guy is 6+ months and has changed his own schedule about 4 times so far. Like right now he seems to be enjoying 2, sometimes 3 2ish hour naps a day, and he sleeps really well at night if he goes to bed when we do and not before. That's what he likes right now, so if a new parent heard me talking and thought I knew what I was doing, she might be in trouble to try to follow me!

I still think you found what worked, and that's not middleoftheroad, that's being attached.


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