# Mom left kids in car, I called 911; Right action?



## bendmom (Sep 4, 2003)

I know leaving kids in the car has been argued from here to the moon, but I have never been in that position, and now that I did it I am not sure I did the right thing. I guess I just need to hear if it was or if I should have just waited longer outside the car.

I came out of Old Navy with my 1 yr old ds and a woman in the front of the pking lot asked if I had a cell phone. She said someone had left their babies in the car. I went over to the mini van and sure enough there was a baby strapped into a car seat and two or three little kids jumping around. The windows were tinted and there apeared to be a cell phone on the front seat. The oldest looked about 2 nd grade age. I told the woman that I would first go in and find out if the mom was just returning something. I went in and there was no one in the only line who admitted to it. I went back out and the woman said again I needed to call 911. I waited a couple of min. but it was about 40 out and we weren't wearing warm clothing. I called non emergency and told the dispatch the situation.The mom came out and asked me why I was standing next to her car ( she knew) and FREAKED OUT when I told her who I was talking to. She started yelling at the other woman saying that she had something to do with this and she should have minded her own business. The dispatch asked me and the mom to stay until the officer got there. The woman kept calling me a B***H and her daughter poked her head out and asked her what was going on. The mom was really pregnant and was telling her daughter how she was very responsible and she had only left her for 10 min and that she was just fine and this B***H was calling the police. THe officer (woman) came and asked me what happened and the mom said she felt she should go first and said she just ran in to return something and that she had left her 9 yr, 7yr, and infant with the doors locked and a cell phone and that was only gone for 10 min, bla bla. I said that infact she was NOT returning something because I saw her back in the clearance area when I was shopping and that I had gone into the store and she was no where near the front to return anything. I got to leave, but the officer made the lady stay and then another officer pulled up.

I feel really bad because she probably was there to exchange somthing and wasn't there for very long. I think the other lady told her she shouldn't leave her kids in the car when she was going in and then hit me up for the dirty work. I personaly would NEVER leave my children in a car in a mall parking lot. Not because I think someone would steal them, but because kids decide to get out and find mom, start the car, strangle eachother, etc. Half way through waiting I just wanted to apologize to her and tell her she was a good mom, but she looking like she was having a full on panick attack. Thanks for reading this. I just needed to bounce this off other stressed out moms!


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I don't care if she went in to go to the bathroom, leaving a baby with a second grader in totally unacceptable. Good for you for calling, imo you did the right thing. It only takes seconds for something bad to happen.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

It's always a hard call, I've been there.........and nine is just so right on the edge......and i would never leave a nine year old with a baby....i *might* have left just a 7 and 9 year old in the car by themselves for a few minutes....but not with a baby......We have a 7, 9 and 12 year old, and my little angel, 12 months..........We have left them *all* in the car, if the baby is sleeping, but the 12 year old is capable, 12 is a lot different than 9.....I would not leave her if he was not there......


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## djs_girl517 (Feb 29, 2004)

I remember the following story very vividly:

When I was about 7-8, my dad drove a small isuzu truck - you know, the tiny ones? you could get an adult and two small children into it barely?

Anyway, one day my brother (1 year older) and I rode with him to the beer store. He left the truck running in neutral cuz it was a standard, ran in, walked to the display of his beer, and walked to the counter to pay. He was the only customer in the store and because the store is small and has an all-glass front, we were never out of Dad's sight. There is no way he would've been out of the truck for 10 mins.

I was sitting in the middle, but decided to scoot over under the steering wheel, and pretend to drive. My brother also scooted over - and released the emergency brake. The parking lot was sloped down toward a very busy highway. The truck began to roll (picking up speed) toward the highway. Neither my brother nor I knew how to stop it. If my dad hadn't been paying attention, or hadn't been able to move fast enough to catch the truck, my brother and I most assuredly would have died that day.

He never left us alone in a vehicle again until we were capable of driving it. Regardless of whether the children were in danger today, maybe that woman will think twice next time before leaving her children alone in a vehicle they cannot control.


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## bendmom (Sep 4, 2003)

I agree Jess. I would have taken the infant with me. I think that the girls where fine, but you never know. 12 is dif than 9, but on the other hand, no one told her to have 3 kids there for making it hard to get anything done. Even if I have to just run in a perscription, I still drag both by boys AND my husband in (he fiddles with my settings).

Would the Police fine her or get her in trouble? They asked me to leave and then stayed with her. I'm hoping that nothing happened but give her a warning?


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Me too. It's a hard situation- I'd probably have taken the car reg into the store with me and asked them to try and page the mother first, but you were under a huge amount of pressure from Ms I-don't-want-to-be-the-bad-guy. At least everyone is safe and fine now.


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

I think it was appropriate to stay close and check out the situation. We need concerned mothers looking out for other children. But I would have to say that calling 911 when it was not an emergency was over board. I think police should stay out of family buisiness unless someone is in danger. I have known police to take advantage and make situations worse for families so personally I don't want them around me! I don't trust the Police because they are above the law and the womens children could be taken away and her unborn child for that matter. I know you acted on instinct and you are not wrong either. Sorry that she used such awful words with you! She was just a mama feeling defensive and a little guilty for not wanting to cart the brood in along with her pregnant self..LOL
I never leave my kids in the car unless I can see them.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Jamie what happened to you and your brother gives me the chills! I remember being left in the car with my sister often. With the engine running too, if it was cold out. And my parents were very responsible. I guess that was the norm back then?? Seems strange now, though.


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## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

Well, no use crying over spilled milk. You did what you thought was right at the time. Try not to second guess yourself and your actions. (need to find that hug smilie....)

So you know, a good friend had this happen. She left her 5, 7 and 9 year olds in the car for literally 2 minutes to run into the quick-e-mart to get milk. When she came out, an officer was standing there and read her the riot act. (I know it was 2 minutes because he timed her). Social services was called, she had to hire a lawyer, get letters of reference from her pediatrician, the kids teachers, friends, neighbors, etc. that she was a 'fit' mother. All the while being told that if she DIDN'T comply, her kids would be taken into foster care.

I agree with the pp who said that calling police is not always the best idea, but it's a tough call....


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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Since you called non-emergency instead of 911, no harm. A warning'll do nothing but good.

HOWEVER, this other woman really pressured you into calling. Next time, do what you feel is right, not what others are pressuring you to do (easier to say than do, I know-I'm working on this right now







) I probably would have caved also, but an ideal situation (although you did say it was cold out) would have been to wait by the car-maybe in your own-and then confront the mother about your concerns.

That other woman who was pressuring you is classic passive-aggressive.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I think you handled it beautifully.


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## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

10 minutes is more than enough time for some deranged lunatic or pervert to break the window and snatch one of her precious babes.

In your shoes, I would have called immediately. I wouldn't have waited at all. You absolutely did the right thing.

I know some people might think it is okay even to leave a 7 or 9 year old, but really, what would they do if somebody bigger than them broke in and snatched them? Children of any age are helpless and require us to protect them at all times.


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## Red Fern (May 2, 2005)

Quote:

But I would have to say that calling 911 when it was not an emergency was over board. I think police should stay out of family buisiness unless someone is in danger. I have known police to take advantage and make situations worse for families so personally I don't want them around me! I don't trust the Police because they are above the law and the womens children could be taken away and her unborn child for that matter. I know you acted on instinct and you are not wrong either. Sorry that she used such awful words with you! She was just a mama feeling defensive and a little guilty for not wanting to cart the brood in along with her pregnant self..LOL
Yes..Yes..and Yes..

I do also have to add that we live in the age of paranoia so its hard to tell what is the right thing to do.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I think what you did was perfect! Seriously, you didnt jump the gun and call 911 immediately.
You gave the woman the benefit of the doubt, waited a few minutes and even went into the store looking for her.
And then you called the non-emergency number instead of 911, which I think is appropriate.
If this woman was truly just returning something really quick, she would have been in the front and on her way back out before you even called.
It is unfortuate the authorities had to be involved, but while the kids might not have been in immediate danger, it was still an unwise choice the mom made.
joline


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## djs_girl517 (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowdypea*
Jamie what happened to you and your brother gives me the chills! I remember being left in the car with my sister often. With the engine running too, if it was cold out. And my parents were very responsible. I guess that was the norm back then?? Seems strange now, though.

Yeah. I can still imagine it very vividly in my head - even the fear. My dad wasn't the most responsible parent, but really - I don't think anyone could've blamed him for leaving us. We were 7 & 8 or 8 & 9; he literally would have been less than 10 minutes, and we were never out of his sight; the weather was fine - no risk of overheating or freezing; my hometown (where we were) is like 2500 people (smaller at that time). The only possible bad thing that could happen was my brother pulling the emergency brake - and who would've ever imagined that?

I never leave my stepkids alone in the car. Even the oldest who is almost 12. Every time I consider it for half a second, I'm back in that truck rolling rapidly toward 55-mph traffic with no idea how to stop. I can even still see my dad's face when he finally caught the truck.


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
Well, no use crying over spilled milk. You did what you thought was right at the time. Try not to second guess yourself and your actions. (need to find that hug smilie....)

I agree with the pp who said that calling police is not always the best idea, but it's a tough call....

The woman insisting that you call 911 probably should have found a pay phone or a store phone to use. I would see it the same way you do - she pulled you in to do her "dirty work."

I probably would have just parked where I could watch her kids in the car.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

My three siblings and I were left alone in our car all the time as children. I think it's not usually a "only once" occasion, if you know what I mean. If you've got a couple of kids and are mentally OK with leaving them alone, then there are probably lots of times that they're alone for convenience's sake. Places we were left alone in the car: malls, bars, video stores, grocery stores, convenience stores, clothing stores...

I remember feeling really scared and trapped as a child - I mean if the baby pukes, how can you get help? You don't - you can't leave all the others in the car while you wander around the store to try and find your dad (and then he gets mad for you leaving the others in the car). So you clean it up yourself. If baby's choking? Hope that 9 year old knows CPR. We did have strange men approach the car and ask us to roll down windows because they "needed help." We didn't - but it was still terrifying to feel so trapped.

It's a lot of responsibility to put onto a child. The fact that the mother said "well she's responsible" gives me chills - that's probably what my parents would've said too. Ick! I think it's pretty selfish and shortsighted of this mother to not think of possible consequences and how it feels for the children, particularly if she's going to Old Navy to return something. I think you did the right thing - hopefully by not leaving her children alone again, she'll avoid paying a higher price than whatever she bought at Old Navy in the first place.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

on a thread like this a while back someone shared a story about a man pullin gus beside the car with (i think) 3 girls like late childhood early teens, and jerking off and being gross and threatening towards them...
if you are not there...you can't protect them...if they are too young to be in the store or parking lot where you are, then they are too young to be in the car by themselves there too

i grew up in a rural town, if my mom went into the store and left us in the car, we knew every one walking and driving by...we would have been just as safe if we would have wandered down the sidewalk...


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think you handled it fine.

Though I do wish that you'd honored your instinct to at least try to comfort the other mom. I do NOT think an apology would be in order beacue you have nothing to be apologetic about, but more of a "I don't think you're a bad person. I was worried about the kids, but you're not a bad person." type of thing. She probably wouldn't have responded right at that time, but I think she would remember that later.

I think what you did was acting in concern and kindness. What the other lady (not the mom) did seems to have come from a place of 'gotcha' and not real concern. I can understand why you feel used! But it sounds like even the mom got that impression too. I would try to let the language roll off your back--it probably wasn't anything personal. I know stronger things slip out of my mouth even when I'm not pregnant and having the scare of my life.

You did just fine! I bet she will never leave her kids alone in the car again. And yes, she will be upset/on an adrenaline high for a few days probably but you know what, she will get over it and be fine too.

You acted from a core of concern and kindness, don't forget that! It is important.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bendmom*
I agree Jess. I would have taken the infant with me. I think that the girls where fine, but you never know. 12 is dif than 9, but on the other hand, *no one told her to have 3 kids there for making it hard to get anything done*


That's kind of a messed up thing to say. Really. I mean, without going completely off topic, I have to say, I'm really offended by that comment. That's like my mother telling me, when I'm having a stressful day with the kids, "well, nobody told you to have 5 children". No, nobody told her to have 3 kids, therefor making some things more difficult, but nobody else has probably brought her the joy that those 3 kids have brought her either. Hell, nobody told me (or you) to have 1 child. I mean, I know I wasn't a perfect parent the first time around, I'm still not the fifth. Maybe nobody should ever have kids or make bad judgement calls.

Back on topic. I think you did just fine. I was ready to do the same recently when I saw a baby (maybe about a year old) in the car alone outside of a convenience store. Just as I was ready to make the call the dad came out. A 10 yo is not even legally (at least in my state, I don't know if it varies) old enough to babysit. They certainly shouldn't be responsible for a baby inside a vehicle.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I could of called, it's one thing to leave older children, but a baby...


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## rozzie'sma (Jul 6, 2005)

In my state you have to be at least 12 to babysit, therefor leaving those kids was child abandonment. On top of that it was irresponsible and I don't know a single nine year old who I would feel comfortable leaving an infant with at all. I know that it is hard getting kids in and out of the car, but mothering is hard, suck it up. Flame me all you want but where I live that woman would be facing criminal charges if the cops felt like pursuing it.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

You did the right thing.


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## mommy2three (Apr 6, 2003)

You did the right thing!!!! When we first had the twins (6 years ago) we lived in Savannah, GA. It was about 110 degree day and dh came home from the store all upset because he saw a baby left in the car while the mom went in the store. He called the police as well (ironically, now he is a police detective...). The officer said in that heat the baby could sufficate or have heat stroke (I can't remember the exact words but it was unbelievably quick and devestating...) in less than a minute. The officer came to our house to ask some questions and we're not sure what they did about it but it was scary.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I don't want to make you feel bad for doing what you did, especially considering the circumstances, but I would not have called the police in that situation.

I might have hung around to make sure the baby was OK. But, our society is so detached babies are left alone all of the time. I think being left to cry in a crib is far more criminal than some busy mainstream mom, who probably doesn't know about slings... just to take the baby, she would have had to whip out the stroller or something else that is really complicated... she's pregnant, she's stressed... now she feels totally attacked and everywhere she goes, she's going to feel like other mothers are there to watchdog her, not help her.

I think as mothers we should try to support each other more. Leaving a baby alone with two older children may offend many (and it's certainly something I would personally never EVER do), but that sort of horrible thing happens to babies ALL OF THE TIME in this culture. And, many of those things are legal and advocated by parenting "experts".

So personally, I don't think calling the police probably helped things in the long run for this poor mom. I guess if it was me, I would have hung out and waited for the mom to appear, making sure she wasn't gone too long, and if she was, or if the baby was crying, had her paged in the store.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
I think you handled it beautifully.

Me too


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I think you did the right thing. I would have called too.
Better to be safe than sorry. Best case scenario, you may save a life. Worst case scenario, a pissed off mother and having to deal with the police. Worth it, imho.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Thank you OP for caring enough to call. Children aren't purses or groceries. They shouldn't be left in cars alone. Good job.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I think you did the right thing, 100%. You called the non-emergency number so thats probably better. O/T my mom and I were at the mall a while ago and we were walking out of JCPenny as this woman was walking in (I remembered her because I went to HS with her) we then took our JCPenny bags to the car, then went into Goodwill for 20 minutes. When we walked out we heard this honking, there was a little girl (maybe 3 or 4) in this car. We drove up by it and the little girl was all alone and bawling







so my mom parked again and called 9-1-1. While we were on the phone with the dispatcher the mom walked out (it had been close to 30 minutes at this time) her and her SO got in the car, put the little girl in the backseat and drove off. We gave the police the make and model of the car plus the license plate number. The cop called that night and said that they found her and were charging her with child neglect (it's against the law in Iowa to leave a child in the car) and they would be in touch with us if they needed us to testify. It never came to that. I saw in the paper a while ago (small town, they print court information) that she was found guilty (dont know if she plead out or what) of 4th degree child endangerment, 1 year suspended sentence with community service. I saw her a while after that, pregnant again. I hope it was a wake up call not to leave the baby in the car.

I'm sure people can think "I was only in the store for a second" but time FLIES when you're shopping, at least it does for me. I can be looking around and look at my wach and 30 minutes have passed when it seems like possibly 5.


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## ayme371 (Jan 5, 2005)

I think you definately did the right thing. You never know what could happen no matter how young or how old the child is. There are way too many crazies out there to risk it even for a minute. I agree that we should be there to support moms but in this situation you were supporting her. You helped keep her kids safe now and hopefully in the future she will think twice and not leave her kids.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

You did the right thing, I don't care the reason those kids were put at risk and you did the responsible thing. Cars can heat up 40-50 degrees from outside temps especially if left in the sun. A child can put a car into gear seriously injuring even killingthem selfs or others, a child can be snatched in a matter of seconds.

.

Quote:

just to take the baby, she would have had to whip out the stroller or something else that is really complicated... she's pregnant, she's stressed... now she feels totally attacked and everywhere she goes, she's going to feel like other mothers are there to watchdog her, not help her.
Ummm too bad this isn't about her its about the safety of those children







:

Deanna


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

One of the worst things about our car society is that everything is so much more difficult. Everythingis far away, nobody knows each other, ad we have to park in large mall lots to get stuff done. I think more than anything, our car/mall/mobile hate-our-neighbors, registered sex offenders society, makes it impossible to *not* call 911. Kids in a large mall lot are *not* safe unless other , trusted adults are keeping an eye on them.

I think of my dh's family in Europe and they can walk nearly everywhere for all their needs, they also know most families in their large village, and can acutally let their kids play outside the shops while they do what they need to.

We're messed up.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

What I love about these kinds of questions is that it helps us all think about situations and gives us a wide perspective of the situation in case we are ever in the same circumstance.

You've made your choice so I think it's best to let it go.

If I were in that situation I think I'd agree with others who have said that getting the police involved, may at times do much more harm than good. I would stay and make sure the kids were safe but would not have called the police unless it was so hot the baby could suffocate, or something seriously wrong with one of the children.

Someone above posted about this not being about the mother, but about the children. I completely disagree. It can't be just about the children and NOT about the mother.

If we help to support mothers so they don't feel so alone or overburdened, perhaps they would make better choices for their children. If she didn't feel so tired, overhwhelmed, overworked, or whatever, perhaps she would view a trip to the store as a fun outing instead of a hassle with 2 kids and a baby.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Someone above posted about this not being about the mother, but about the children. I completely disagree. It can't be just about the children and NOT about the mother.








: I don't expect strangers to take care of my kids because I'm too tired to set up a stroller etc..







Sorry but in this case the safety of those kids do trumph the stress of the mommy. Also the OP did try to find the parents she didn't just go Ohh look kids dial..
Deanna

Would like to add, I do think we should extend grace and help when we do see a struggling parent, If I'm out alone I offer to return carts for parents, just let a mother know I understand when there 3 year old is having a tantrum in frozzen foods, I tend to keep that "extra" eye on toddlers I see runiing around and I'll give up my space in line to allow a parent struggling with kids to go first..


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Considering that recently my 2 year old almost choked to death while I was sitting right there with him in my living room, I don't leave my children unattended for any amount of time. Ever. For any reason. They come into the bathroom with me, the laundry room, everywhere. My childrens' lives are a million times more precious than any amount of convenience it would mean to be able to leave them in the car while I run into a store for any reason. Even at 33 weeks pregnant.
You did the right thing. Good for you for caring about those children.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

I disagree that this is an issue about supporting mothers. Leaving kids in a car can be deadly-weather, criminals, car accidents ( cars do get hit by other cars in parking lots) etc. I have been hugely pregnant running my bosses errands and had to just suck up the fact of dragging a five year old and a one year old with me. Part of having kids is being responsiable for them even if it is inconvient.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*







: I don't expect strangers to take care of my kids because I'm too tired to set up a stroller etc..







Sorry but in this case the safety of those kids do trumph the stress of the mommy. Also the OP did try to find the parents she didn't just go Ohh look kids dial..
Deanna

Would like to add, I do think we should extend grace and help when we do see a struggling parent, If I'm out alone I offer to return carts for parents, just let a mother know I understand when there 3 year old is having a tantrum in frozzen foods, I tend to keep that "extra" eye on toddlers I see runiing around and I'll give up my space in line to allow a parent struggling with kids to go first..

Well, when I look at the situation I do see a "struggling parent." I would guess that she didn't even think that what she was doing was harmful or negligent in any way. I would guess that someone who has 2 children and a baby and is pregnant may have just thought, "the older two can handle this, I just need to run in for a minute which is easier than taking everyone and having them all want this or that, wake up the baby, etc." I don't agree with the choice the mom made to leave the kids alone, but I don't think she did it with malicious intent.

You state outright that you don't expect strangers to take care of your kids.....but in this case, calling the police means that someone IS taking care of someone else's kids.

Perhaps more compassion is needed for mothers everywhere. Why is it that we can have compassion if their child is acting up in front of us, but we don't feel the mom who has made an error in judgement needs compassion as well? We all need help from time to time. We all find parenting overwhelming from time to time and sometimes in those moments of stress we make judgement calls that really aren't the best for anyone. I think if we take care of the mother, we take care of the children.

I think the way the OP handled it was fine. After reflecting on all the points of view presented, it would not be my first choice, but I think it was a logical decision based on the circumstances and I think the OP made the decision coming from a general concern and care for the children involved. I just think if we help mothers everywhere feel less burdened and overwhelmed, we help children too.


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:

If I were in that situation I think I'd agree with others who have said that getting the police involved, may at times do much more harm than good. I would stay and make sure the kids were safe but would not have called the police unless it was so hot the baby could suffocate, or something seriously wrong with one of the children.








:
I wouldn't have called. It was 40 degrees out, from the OP, so the children weren't baking. There was on older child with a phone she presumably knew how to use. The kids weren't in immediate danger. I may have asked the store to do an intercom call for a mom who left her kids in the car, though---a more appropriate level of response IMO since you weren't just out to get the mom in trouble.

Could something have happened? Yeah. But if we went around calling cops every time we see a child doing something potentially dangerous, our children would have very boring, sheltered lives indeed.

It's done now, though, and I would try not to worry too much about the situation.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot*
Perhaps more compassion is needed for mothers everywhere. Why is it that we can have compassion if their child is acting up in front of us, but we don't feel the mom who has made an error in judgement needs compassion as well? We all need help from time to time.

Well, because an adult is responsible and can make decisions that affect the child. Children are not able to control their own lives - they're kids. Just like a grown man who threw a tantrum and a bottle at me - I'd be a lot less forgiving than with a child. I dunno, a mom who came out calling me a b**** and insisting the 9 year old was responsible... instead of acting just a bit concerned about the whole situation...was she about to listen to the worries of a stranger?

But then again, like I said - I was one of those kids left in cars, all the time, with my siblings. So this comes from one kid's POV. I was not happy about it, it wasn't safe, and I didn't get a say, either. I also don't really understand people who spank their kids and get defensive about it; or people who otherwise neglect or abuse their children and instead of realizing the hurt they cause and change, defend it. Adults have choices that children do not. I agree, we can try to help them make better choices - but I really, really wish someone had called 9-1-1 for us. Would a heart-to-heart talk have made a difference? You could hope so, but my parents would have called it "meddling in our family affairs."

And told us to sit lower in the car so people couldn't see us next time.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

40 degrees outside means the inside car could have been in the 90's

Deanna


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:

40 degrees outside means the inside car could have been in the 90's
Not likely unless it was a long time, and in direct sun. Even so, that would have been an immediately dangerous situation? Guess we in the South should never go outside for more than a couple of minutes between the months of May and October...


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

You state outright that you don't expect strangers to take care of your kids.....but in this case, calling the police means that someone IS taking care of someone else's kids.
Ummm their is a huge diffrence between assuming some stranger will stop by and freely babysit your kids and another to involve police trained to act in these situations. Huge huge giagantic diffrence.. Not even comparable in my book









Quote:

I would guess that she didn't even think that what she was doing was harmful or negligent in any way. I would guess that someone who has 2 children and a baby and is pregnant may have just thought, "the older two can handle this, I just need to run in for a minute which is easier than taking everyone and having them all want this or that, wake up the baby, etc." I don't agree with the choice the mom made to leave the kids alone, but I don't think she did it with malicious intent.
I do agree with this but she still engaged in a dangerous situation, and again as I read it the OP DID try to find the mother (maybe she could have tried harder







) but how long was se sosposed to stand around?? How long were this kids in the car before they even showed up?? Our actions have conquences even those without malicous intents.

Deanna


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrzmeg*
Not likely unless it was a long time, and in direct sun. Even so, that would have been an immediately dangerous situation? Guess we in the South should never go outside for more than a couple of minutes between the months of May and October...

I live in Yuma AZ its one of the hottest (might be the hottest) cities in the USA first off car tempetures internal can increase as much as 50 degrees with in MINUTES if in dirrect sun (I say it COULD have been not that it was) there is also a big diffrence between outside hot weather and heat inside the car.
So yes it COULD have been an imediate dangerous situation.

Deanna


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:

So yes it COULD have been an imediate dangerous situation.
So, you think children should never be subjected to 90 degree heat?


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## Our2Girlz (Sep 25, 2005)

In our area there is a law about that sort of thing. You can not go more than 10 feet from your car if there are kids in the car. If you do and you get caught you can be proscuted for child endangerment...

That said I on occassion leave my kids in the car there only certain times when I do.

At the gas station I only go to certain ones where you dont havt to go in there is a window outside and then I will drve around and around it trying to get one of the pumps on either side of the window.

If they are both sleeping and I need to run in the house for soemthing I will leave them for enough time to run in and grab it and I will literally run.

I would NEVER leave my children in the car if I wanted to return something to a store or if I needed to go into a store for any reason.

There is a place that makes take and bake pizzas and you can buy them with food stamps. I have been known to go thru their drive thru to get a soda because I dont want to leave the kids in the car while I run into a gas station to get a soda.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrzmeg*
So, you think children should never be subjected to 90 degree heat?

:LOL If I did we need to move, and I should have made it clear that a car CAN heat up fast to temptures much higher than you think.. 90 is most likely not to cause harm but then maybe it would how were thse kids dressed? was the baby bundled up for the cold? if so then yes 90 degrees could be dangerous.. WHat I was just pointing out though is how fast a car COULD heat up.. (not just this one.

Deanna


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:

WHat I was just pointing out though is how fast a car COULD heat up.. (not just this one.
I totally agree...I was just pointing out that I don't think that was a factor in this case (and the main reason I would not have called the cops)


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrzmeg*
I totally agree...I was just pointing out that I don't think that was a factor in this case (and the main reason I would not have called the cops)









Understand and my reasons for "most likely" of calling would have probably been for diffrent reasons also









Deanna


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## HippoMommy (Sep 28, 2005)

I might've asked the store to page her -- make it a loudspeaker thing "will the parent of the children alone in their car in the parking lot please return to your car. . . " something embarassing to get her attention, but not involving the police and/or I would've watched the car and talked to her about it. But I also think it's easy to 2nd guess yourself. You were trying to help. . . . I think you did fine.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I would have had her paged over the store's loudspeaker first, and then waited a bit longer to call the police, but that's just me and here's why.

Does anyone remember the case where a Dutch woman was visiting the U.S. with her child and her child was taken by social services? She left her child in a stroller outside a cafe in front of a plate glass window while she went inside; someone called the police and her child was taken because she was deemed neglectful. The kicker was that it was a case of cultural differences. What she did was completely normal in her paradigm. And it took her a long time to get her child back.

I worked once with a mother who would also leave her children in the car while she ran into the office to pick work up. She was from a small Southern town and that was normal to her, based on her experience. It took us a while to convincingly explain to her that the northern end of Hartford was *not* a small Southern town -- she wasn't being obtuse, she just had a lot of cultural training to unlearn.

This isn't to say that there are factors that were putting those children in danger -- the heat, etc. But I would have paged first, because I wouldn't want to assume that the mother in question came from the same cultural assumptions that I do.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I agree that this was a poor mistake on this mom's part.
But I just cant see the whole "heat" thing on a 40 degree autumn day.
My first thought was those kids could be COLD.
The number of degrees a car is heated is directly related to whether the car was in direct sunshine, the time of day, the lattitude. the time of year.
All other dangers aside, a car is not going to heat up to dangerous levels in 15 minutes on a 40 degree october day. In fact it will not heat up to dangerous levels all day long on a 40 degree october day.
I live in Phoenix where several children die every summer by being left in cars for hours. The risk is very real here all summer long.
But all other safety concerns aside, I would not consider the heat to be an issue at all on a 40 degree day.
I think that the mistake this woman made was in convincing herself that she could return something and just sneak in back to the clearance racks for a couple of minutes and it wouldnt matter.
I used to be in the "never" crowd when it came to leaving my kids in the car. That lasted until I had 3 toddlers in carseats and now I occasionally run inside the gas station convenience store. But I always judge every risk factor I can think of first.
1. none of my kids know how to get out of their carseats
2. none have anything they can choke on.
3. the car is off with keys removed , doors locked
4. The car is in the shade within sight
5. I never take a second longer than absolutely necessary.

I think it is reasonable to assume that this mother had her own mental checklist, thinking that perhaps an 8 year old with a cellphone and herself within 30 seconds walking distance was reasonably safe.
However as a passerby, you have no way to know whether or not mom had considered and assessed the risks seriously. And you gave her ample chance to return.
j


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I wouldn't have called. I think our culture underestimates children, and then complains about our children's lack of responsibility. Most 9-year-olds, IMO, are perfectly capable of caring for a baby (who was clearly not a young infant, if the mom was noticeably pregnant) for 10 or 15 minutes. In many societies, they would be doing so for hours by age 9. The kids had instant access to the mom if something came up, via cell phone, and she was minutes away. The car doors were locked. They didn't appear distressed in any way (sobbing, screaming in terror, etc). Yes, a strange man could come along and smash in the car windows and grab the kids, all in a crowded parking lot, but the chances are pretty slim... and the same strange man could do the same thing at home, while mom was in another room.

Dar


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369*
She was from a small Southern town and that was normal to her, based on her experience.

So am I, but I still wouldn't leave three children in a car alone while I went in to shop for 10-15-20-30 minutes. It takes seconds for something to happen, and I think you did the right thing by calling the police. What she did was illegal in most states.

Heck, I've called before when someone left their DOG in the car, so I would call about a child in a heartbeat.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I can't imagine leaving children of any age in a parked car, no matter what the tempurature, to shop the clearance racks at Old Navy.

I think the mom in the OP did the right thing -- tried to find the mom and then called on the non emergancy number.

I've read enough news stories about kids in parked cars dying or being abducted that this is a very serious thing to me.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Ummm their is a huge diffrence between assuming some stranger will stop by and freely babysit your kids and another to involve police trained to act in these situations. Huge huge giagantic diffrence.. Not even comparable in my book









I don't think for one minute that this woman expected or assumed that some passerby would or should stop and care for her children. In fact, her response led me to believe that she thought everyone should mind their own darn business and leave her car & children alone. The OP obviously got involved because she is a caring person and wanted to ensure the safety of these children. That was her choice.....she wasn't asked by the mother to watch her children.

I also agree with an above post that states that the 9 year old may have very well been able to attend to the baby. If she is the sister, she's been around since day one. She may be given a lot of responsibility at home and the mom probably felt she was quite competent to care for the baby. Still not the choice I would make, but I don't know the entire situation.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Even if you don't think the car could have gotten hot what about the children being abducted or the car being hit by another car? These things can happen.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Haven't reaf all the responses yet- but I think we're all doing the best we can. That includes both the OP and the woman in the store.

Being a mom is a difficult non-stop job that is done sometimes with very little sleep, and often our children's lives or health are at stake.

I see this as a no-fault situation. The OP was unable to ascertain the precise risk- there was no way to. The mom in question was basing her judgement on previous experience, and perhaps needed to blow off steam. Maybe the mom needed to walk away from the car in order to avoid driving it off a cliff.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot*
I don't think for one minute that this woman expected or assumed that some passerby would or should stop and care for her children. In fact, her response led me to believe that she thought everyone should mind their own darn business and leave her car & children alone. The OP obviously got involved because she is a caring person and wanted to ensure the safety of these children. That was her choice.....she wasn't asked by the mother to watch her children.

.

I agree I was answering the idea that someone caling the poliece is getting a stranger involved VS having someone stay with their kids untill the mother returned. I think the OP did the right thing, I'm just saying if I was to leve my child I'd expect somone to call the police not feel like they had an oblgation to stay and babysit till I returned.

Deanna


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Maybe the mom needed to walk away from the car in order to avoid driving it off a cliff.
Okay clearly I just have a totally diffrent view on these situations but driving in an old navy parking lot which she didn't have to do to go clearence shopping? I just don't get how thats compared to avoiding driving off a cliff.







:

Deanna


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## tryingitnatural (Aug 30, 2005)

I believe in fate and mayber the mother needed a warning or even a little more. If she left her children then you never know how many times she has done this and for how long. Don't worry about it what is done is done and things happen for a reason. I hope you feel better!


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nannymom*
Even if you don't think the car could have gotten hot what about the children being abducted or the car being hit by another car? These things can happen.

I never said it was wise. However I think the chances of the children being abducted or involved in an accident are very remote.
Far more remote for instance than being involved in a serious accident in their own home while my back is turned.

However I still think it was wrong to leave the kids in the car that young for so long. Paying for gas. Grabbing a soda. That's one thing. But browsing the clearance racks is seriously another.
I think maybe a 9 year old can be responsible for an infant. But I was thinking these kids were like 5 and 7. I think the biggest risk is what if middle sister decided not to listen to big sister. Then what does she do?
joline


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

She was Danish not Dutch...


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Okay clearly I just have a totally diffrent view on these situations but driving in an old navy parking lot which she didn't have to do to go clearence shopping? I just don't get how thats compared to avoiding driving off a cliff.







:

Deanna


I just meant that sometimes a mom can feel very overwhelmed, and perhaps this woman really needed to park her car and be alone for 15 minutes.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom*
Okay clearly I just have a totally diffrent view on these situations but driving in an old navy parking lot which she didn't have to do to go clearence shopping? I just don't get how thats compared to avoiding driving off a cliff.







:

Deanna

i think our society makes it nearly impossible for parents to do the simplest of errands. We don;t know anyone in the mega parking lots, and whenever we need the basics, we often have to drive miles to do so. We are tired, and we trust no neighbors, who might be willing to say "hey-- let me watch your kids for five freaking minutes while you return a piece of crap or get 5 minutes to yourself".

We have to do every freaking little thing by oursleves. With little kids in tow, who might not want to be there, and who crab so other mothers can think "why is that woman *here* with her kids!???"

This society is wrong. Period. I can't be talked out of that belief. To create community in this society takes a heap of effort, and not all folks are trusting of that, or up to the work.

If we had neighbors we accepted, imperfect as they might be, or if we lived in a society which accepted it was OK to leave the babes happily sleeping in prams, with sibs, whatever, we could get itshay done.

In our society we are supposed to keep the tile clean, keep the kids clean (god forbid they go into stores dirty) the dh's shirts clean, the house organized, and omg, never, ever, try to do an errand in the day with children in tow. Children who might not want to do errands.

That's garbage. Those are *wrong* expectations.

If we knew our neighbors, weren't forced to shop in huge malls, we would not have to do everything ourselves or have to call 911 on other unsupported mothers who drop the ball for a few frigging minutes.


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

What gives me the chills is that you and the other woman were able to stand there looking in for so long and the mother never knew. ANYONE could have been standing there looking in and she would have never known until she came out. That's the thought that makes me bring my kids with me even when it's a pain to unload them, then get them back into their seats again after.

We do live in a paranoid society, that's true, and probably nothing would happen. I just know I could never forgive myself if I let something happen.

Don't know what I would have done. Maybe I would have tried to talk to the oldest in the car and been suspected of being some kind of wierdo myself. That is a really tough situation. Really tough. Hearts to you!

CurlyTop

p.s. I remember going around town while DSM passed proofs for a photography studio when I was about 3-4 yo. I sat in the back of that car for what seemed like hours all alone, only to see her come out, drive us to the next stop on her list, and do it all over again. Boredom and scared too if anyone walked by..... ugh.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Retail therapy is SO not an emergency or excuse to leave kids alone. If a mom needed "time away" - fine, go to the park and sit outside the car. If she was just in "for a minute" then find a different time to go or get a babysitter or whatever. Is this an emergency? No. If you see kids outside a pharmacy or ER, then fine. Outside an Old Navy/mall parking lot? Er...

"Oh, my kids got carjacked/abducted/released the e-brake/choked to death because I really needed that shirt that's on sale."

I would totally call, and I always will, particularly once I've tried (as the original poster did) to find the mom, waited for a few minutes, or tried to talk to her myself. That's just really not cool...

I don't care - 9 year olds should not be left to take care of siblings unless they've got a great support network (as in traditional cultures). My baby brother almost choked to death when I was 9, and I was beside myself because I couldn't save him - I had no idea how. It was luck that he didn't. And I still got in trouble because I'd let him have access to the dangerous object (little christmas ornament) in the first place.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

IMO, you absolutely did the right thing.


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## allbrightmama (Aug 8, 2004)

The OP did exactly the right thing. She waited by the car, tried to locate the mother then called the police. How was she to know when the mom would decide to come back?

IMO the woman who left her kids in the car did so knowing all the risks. In addition to all of the risks that have already been mentioned that includes the possibility that a concerned citizen with her children's safety in mind would call the police. She decided to take that risk. She now has to deal with the consequences. It could have been much worse.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
i think our society makes it nearly impossible for parents to do the simplest of errands. We don;t know anyone in the mega parking lots, and whenever we need the basics, we often have to drive miles to do so. We are tired, and we trust no neighbors, who might be willing to say "hey-- let me watch your kids for five freaking minutes while you return a piece of crap or get 5 minutes to yourself".

We have to do every freaking little thing by oursleves. With little kids in tow, who might not want to be there, and who crab so other mothers can think "why is that woman *here* with her kids!???"

This society is wrong. Period. I can't be talked out of that belief. To create community in this society takes a heap of effort, and not all folks are trusting of that, or up to the work.

If we had neighbors we accepted, imperfect as they might be, or if we lived in a society which accepted it was OK to leave the babes happily sleeping in prams, with sibs, whatever, we could get itshay done.

In our society we are supposed to keep the tile clean, keep the kids clean (god forbid they go into stores dirty) the dh's shirts clean, the house organized, and omg, never, ever, try to do an errand in the day with children in tow. Children who might not want to do errands.

That's garbage. Those are *wrong* expectations.

If we knew our neighbors, weren't forced to shop in huge malls, we would not have to do everything ourselves or have to call 911 on other unsupported mothers who drop the ball for a few frigging minutes.

Hey UUMom! I love what you wrote here and I 100% agree.
I just had to post!! LOL
Its nice to come down on the same side once in a while!


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

If we knew our neighbors, weren't forced to shop in huge malls,
Umm no where is a person forced to shop in a huge mall no where







:
I do agree though that society makes it hard but then there is an element of reality and that includes the reality that innocent kids are snatched hurt or killed when left unsupervised. I can think of a lot of reasons that might warrent a parent leaving there children unattended even in a car, going to Old Navy is never one.
I moved to this icky town a year ago I live in an apartment building you'd think I would have met someone by now nope.. DH works loong hours so its very rare I get anywhere or time without him but leaving my kids unnatteded in a public place simpily isn't an option. I'll delare it naptime put my child in her room and take a hot bath if I need to I'll order pizza for dinner whatever but I wil not leave them in a car alone..

Quote:

f we had neighbors we accepted, imperfect as they might be, or if we lived in a society which accepted it was OK to leave the babes happily sleeping in prams, with sibs, whatever, we could get itshay done.








but sadly we don't, I hope to raise my children to be more aware to help instread of always pointing, in the OP I haven't got a problem with the idea of her waiting with the kids untill the mother returned but I object to the fact she had an obligation too and I object even more to the idea "we" should expect that from another. I don't want to walk around in fear trusting noone, nope but I also refuse to purposly place my child in a position of danger.

Quote:

we would not have to do everything ourselves or have to call 911 on other unsupported mothers who drop the ball for a few frigging minutes.
There was no way for the OP to know if this was an issolated incident or how long the kids had really been left alone...
Overall I agree with your feelings but I think the realities of society today need to be considered and parental responsibility still must be first. And again considering this I think the OP did fine.
Okay I'll get off MY









Deanna


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## AmyAngel (Dec 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I wouldn't have called. I think our culture underestimates children, and then complains about our children's lack of responsibility. Most 9-year-olds, IMO, are perfectly capable of caring for a baby (who was clearly not a young infant, if the mom was noticeably pregnant) for 10 or 15 minutes. In many societies, they would be doing so for hours by age 9. The kids had instant access to the mom if something came up, via cell phone, and she was minutes away. The car doors were locked. They didn't appear distressed in any way (sobbing, screaming in terror, etc). Yes, a strange man could come along and smash in the car windows and grab the kids, all in a crowded parking lot, but the chances are pretty slim... and the same strange man could do the same thing at home, while mom was in another room.

Dar

I agree with this. While leaving children in a car while I go in to a store is not something I would personally do (especially knowing my local Old Navy's penchant for keeping as few checkouts as possible open), we really don't know this woman's story, or her children (some 9 year olds would feel frightened in a car with their siblings and resent the responsibility, but there are also those who beg to stay in the car rather than have to put down their book or game and help herd the little ones while mom does her errand).

We all assume she was shopping because she was in clearance. What if she didn't have a receipt and they would only let her exchange and not return? I would've hauled butt to pick something out quickly just to get the errand done and not have to come back. Were all the children awake when she went in? I think many 9 year olds, especially equipped with cellphones, are responsible enough to watch a probably strapped-in, possibly sleeping older baby for 5-10 minutes, especially when that baby is a sibling.

Yes, she made a bad choice. I would likely have stayed by the car until she came back, and probably told her I was worried about the kids, but I'd be very reluctant to call the police. To the OP, though, I think you did the right thing. If it made you feel better about the children's safety, it was the right thing for you to do. She was probably yelling because she was frightened and embarrassed and angry at the same time -- angry at you and the other woman, but also at herself. I'd be frightened to have the police called on me too, especially after reading some of the CPS nightmares people on this board have been through.

OT, but does Old Navy even have a loudspeaker? I've never heard one used at any I've been to. They play music, but that system is installed and maintained by an outside company.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmyAngel*
OT, but does Old Navy even have a loudspeaker? I've never heard one used at any I've been to. They play music, but that system is installed and maintained by an outside company.


They talk to each other on headsets. I'm fairly certain that they can page customers in the store, but they rarely do it.

The topic at hand-- I think it's ridiculous to tell mothers that they just can't go anywhere if they don't want to drag all of their children out of the car at every little stop. What are we supposed to do? What if you're single, how in the world are you supposed to get *anything* done? I used to fall into the "never, there's no excuse for that!" camp, back when I only had one child. I'm still very very cautious about it, but I have left the kids in the car. I think it's very silly to say "a nine year old could never be trusted with a baby" because that just doesn't make any sense to me. I've met very few nine year olds that I *wouldn't* trust with a small child for 5-20 minutes. Under ordinary circumstances, I don't think that it's appropriate to leave kids in the car, but I have found it necessary at times (and no, I'm not talking about going shopping or returning carts-- I just don't do that with the kids in the car) and I can see it happening again. Of course, I've also stopped strangers in parking lots and asked them to run into convinience stores for me if I needed something very much and both kids were asleep.







I will not pay for gas with the kids in the car, and I will not do anything that *might* cause me to be away from them for more than 5 minutes. If there are too many cars in a parking lot, I won't leave them there. Still, at 11:30 pm at a Turkey Hill in the middle of nowhere with two sleeping kids in the car, I have no qualms about running in and grabbing some caffiene to keep me awake for the drive home.

I guess it's all a matter of priorites. I probably wouldn't have called the police, because I don't like cops, but if I'd thought for a moment that the chidren were distressed or in danger (i.e. they were crying, bouncing around the driver's seat, etc) I wouldn't have hesitated to have someone page her.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother culture*
I never leave my kids in the car unless I can see them.

I have done this a few times also, when my son had just fallen asleep and I dashed in to pick up the take out food I ordered or paid for gas. If I can't keep him in my view, then I take him with me, no matter if it wakes him. But that is just with my son buckled in a car seat, asleep. Never with the engine running, and with in full view, car locked so crazies don't carjack. If it is hot out, or there is another younger child in the car, I don't think I would ever, although I have never been in that position. But my feeling is it's just too dangerous. Actually shopping leisurely with my child in the car like this lady was doing? NEVER EVER. I think you did the right thing. What if the kids got in an argument or accidentally took off the parking brake...they wouldn't know what to do







Hopefully they will just give her a warning though, so that she will be scared enough never to do it again, but so that her family won't get torn apart. She may have just had a one time major lapse of judgement...


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Can a nine-year old protect a baby or younger child from an intruder? Are they accountable for their actions? Do they know CPR? Do they have the negotiation skills if a younger sibling tries to hurt the baby? Do they fully comprehend risks and strategies for dangerous situations? Do they have the emotional resources to cope for a lifetime, if something DOES happen on their watch?

I don't know - I'm not signing up any nine year olds to babysit my children, they usually still need babysitters themselves. I would love to know how many others here defending this practice have ACTUALLY done so...


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I certainly would not have called the police.








If you went into the inner cities you'd find man mamy kids that age left looking after siblings. I'm not saying it's wise, but it's a reality. Certainly the areas where I worked in London the young kids would be out playing all hours in the streets with no adult watching. 9 y/os would take care of the baby while mum was out. Very, very common.

I would not impose my values on them - my world is nothing like their world. Similarly, I would not impose my value judgement on this mum. If I was concerned, I would watch out until she returned. But I would never have called the police. I dont know her situation or her kids. I hope she straightened it out with the cops.

I think sometimes we need to stand back and realise that other people do not live in our comfortable world (I speak here about my world - I'm not struggling to survive with kids and too much on my plate, and I suspect the same is true of most of us here) If you live in a tougher environment your judgements are going to be different, and usually the last thing you need is the police on your case about it.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry, Britishmum, it's a different situation. The inner cities over here tend to be a close-knit community where the elderly gossips know every single child, every family, what's going on- and they keep the net curtains twitching. As long as your front door is open and you live in a quiet area, traffic-wise, nothing exciting is likely to happen. That's NOT the same as a 9yo being left in sole charge of a baby, because they're in public and so being supervised by some 40 households.
I get the kids friends turning up on the doorstep at least twice a week asking for plasters or a drink, and my two don't even play out on the streets (traffic's a nightmare round here- we live right on a blind corner) It seems like a completely different way of life.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boomingranny*
She was Danish not Dutch...

Thanks.









Sleep dep makes English not my friend. Whee~


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
I would not impose my values on them - my world is nothing like their world. Similarly, I would not impose my value judgement on this mum.


At least where I live, children under the age of 11 can not be left in a car alone or with others under this age.

Running in to a store, even for "5 minutes" will get you in trouble (endangering the life of a minor).

I have no problem calling the police to report a crime.

The law is not a "value judgment" It's the law, pure and simple. If you think it is wrong, seek to have it changed.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

OP - I would have done the same thing myself. Here in the South, even 9 year old children die inside cars, even on not so warm days, when parked in the sun. It's something that is taken very seriously because every few months, there's another story in the paper about children who died because they were left in a locked car.







The ones who don't die end up with irreversible brain damage. It's not cool to leave babies inside a car, even for a second or two. That's all it takes for something horrible to happen, and then how do you think the mother would feel? I'd much rather make her angry than to see her mourn the loss of her childrens' lives.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

Did anyone see the Oprah episode last year about children left in the car while their mothers ran into the house, or into the store, and it ended in the children being hurt or killed?
One mom left her 3 boys in the van, running while she ran into her apartment. The oldest was about 8 or so ( can't remmber) and the youngest a toddler. Well, the car caught fire, and they all just sat there. They were burned and the toddler's face is unrecognizable from his burns.







Another mom left her young son in the car at a convenience store and as she was coming out a man stole her car with the child in it. She was trying to get him out of the carseat and he took off, dragging the child and kiling him. There were a few more examples. I have never gotten over seeing that show. Watching those women tell the stories just ripped my heart right out.
I know in the op's particular situation, it's likely that nothing would have happened, like some people say. But since that show aired, it made me even more determined not to leave my ds in the car alone.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes I saw it and it confirmed my feelings that kids shouldn't be left in cars.


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## mrs.felt (Sep 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HippoMommy*
I might've asked the store to page her -- make it a loudspeaker thing "will the parent of the children alone in their car in the parking lot please return to your car. . . " something embarassing to get her attention, but not involving the police and/or I would've watched the car and talked to her about it. But I also think it's easy to 2nd guess yourself. You were trying to help. . . . I think you did fine.

absolutely not! paging something like that over the loudspeaker is practically an invitation for any sicko that might be listening to bolt out to the parking lot, knowing that there are unattended children and do something horrible to the children. same reason if there is a lost child in a department store, managers or other store associates guard all doors and are informed of the child's description and last known whereabouts before ANY page is made.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom*
I probably would have just parked where I could watch her kids in the car.

And this would have been very much appreciated... at least IMHO.

I don't think the OP did anything wrong, but I can also understand the momma's panic at having the police involved. Also, despite her being heavily pg, she MIGHT be a single momma with no other resources (for her to leave the kids with) - she might be a widow or her husband/partner may have left... so, while what she chose to do was poor judgement and possibly dangerous for her kids, try to give her a bit of understanding.

Anyway... as a single momma, I've left my 12 yr old watching my 2.5 yr old in the locked, turned OFF car if my lil one was sleeping & I was just running in very quickly (pharmacy pick up called in med - literally 5 minutes) & could see them - but not in summer or very cold winter, etc. Depends on the situation.

I know I have gone to drive in movies with YS and after he fell asleep, had to go to the bathroom BADLY... and there is no way to take a sleeping toddler into the bathroom (crowded, dirty, no counters and FILTHY floors), and I was alone... so I locked my car and asked a momma next to us if she would keep an eye on him while I went to the bathroom (10 feet from car).

So, as I started this post, I know that I would LOVE to have another momma (or poppa or aunt or granma/pa...) watch out for my kids (even though I trust OS to keep an eye on YS implicitly) if I needed to leave them in the car for a few minutes. Without judgement is best... because even if you can't imagine a situation in which you'd make that choice, there are situations and everyone's is different.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I wouldn't have called. I think our culture underestimates children, and then complains about our children's lack of responsibility. Most 9-year-olds, IMO, are perfectly capable of caring for a baby (who was clearly not a young infant, if the mom was noticeably pregnant) for 10 or 15 minutes. In many societies, they would be doing so for hours by age 9. The kids had instant access to the mom if something came up, via cell phone, and she was minutes away. The car doors were locked. They didn't appear distressed in any way (sobbing, screaming in terror, etc). Yes, a strange man could come along and smash in the car windows and grab the kids, all in a crowded parking lot, but the chances are pretty slim... and the same strange man could do the same thing at home, while mom was in another room.

Dar


A brave post that ITA with.

We live in such a culture of fear (thanks a lot, Oprah!). Let's keep the situation described in some sort of perspective. It's very easy to imagine 1 million things that might go wrong (meteor smashes into car full of kids while mother shops!!!), but they probably won't in actuality.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Maybe the OP is a mandatory reporter? Something that I think we all should be.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Ever heard of risk assessment? It's entirely possible that the mom did one and came up that it was okay.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Yeah but in some states leaving children in a car alone (even a 9 year old) is illegal and considered neglect. Something that has to be reported.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

To OP, I feel for you - it is hard to know what to do. I think it is terrible when people see obvious problems and just don't "want to get involved". Yet, as I said, it is hard sometimes to know when to get involved.

I wouldn't worry too much about what happened with the mom - probably nothing other than them recommending she not leave her kids alone in the car. I used to work in a county hospital and had to call CPS once. AFter two or three attempts to talk to someone over the course of a few hours, I finally had to LEAVE a MESSAGE! You have to just about kill your kids to have them taken away, and I doubt there is a fine for leaving kids in the car.

I say when children are involved it is better safe than sorry.









~Tracy


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
Can a nine-year old protect a baby or younger child from an intruder? Are they accountable for their actions? Do they know CPR? Do they have the negotiation skills if a younger sibling tries to hurt the baby? Do they fully comprehend risks and strategies for dangerous situations? Do they have the emotional resources to cope for a lifetime, if something DOES happen on their watch?

I don't know - I'm not signing up any nine year olds to babysit my children, they usually still need babysitters themselves. I would love to know how many others here defending this practice have ACTUALLY done so...

A nine year old can use a cellphone and have mom there in less than a minute. The same amount of time it might take (maybe less) to get mom out of the bathroom during such an emergency.
I think it is easier to watch a baby for a 9 year old than a closer age sibling.
It is that I would be more concerned about.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
A nine year old can use a cellphone and have mom there in less than a minute. The same amount of time it might take (maybe less) to get mom out of the bathroom during such an emergency.
.

My cell phone does not work in Wal-mart, and by the time an adult could dial a cell phone in a crisis someone could smash in a window and take the children, it happens in seconds not minutes. I personally take a very hard line safety issues and overly cautious so for me this is not something I would ever think is ok. But again, everyone deals with things differently


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I dont really think of stranger abduction as a real risk, more of a paranoia.
There are only a handful of cases in the entire country in any given year. THey are given so much publicity that many people believe that it just happens all the time and around every corner.
It happens just as often from a locked home (if not more) than from a car parking lot.
I do access risks all the time when I make decisions about my children, but the risk of stranger abduction doesnt often make it into my assessment.
(my kids are more likely to be killed by my spouse or a family friend than a stranger. And yet I keep my dh and friends around)
joline


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaBug*
by the time an adult could dial a cell phone in a crisis someone could smash in a window and take the children

There is an *extremely* remote possibility of that happening. Resist the culture of fear.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

I can't resist, really I try but I can't. I don't want to be this worried or paranoid but I am. And honestly I am not willing to be that one in a million person that this kind of thing happens to, kwim? You always hear, this was such a good community, we had no idea .......I am just not willing to take a chance when it's not necessary. I do not want my child to be a statistic


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

I hear you MamaBug. I try hard to resist my worry-wart impulses, and fail frequently.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Culture of fear, whatever. Maybe we lived in a area with a high statistic of weird guys, but when we were left in the car, we had men approach us and ask us to get out, try the door handles, offer things (candy, toys, pets), or roll down the windows because they "just wanted to get help." We didn't, we told our parents about it, they weren't too concerned as long as we didn't roll down the windows or get out. So I guess that was their risk assessment. Predators look for the unaccompanied child, that was _their_ risk assessment.

I guess different life experiences probably lead to vastly different risk assessments for a child's safety while shopping at Old Navy.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
I guess different life experiences probably lead to vastly different risk assessments for a child's safety while shopping at Old Navy.

Perfectly stated.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I dont really think of stranger abduction as a real risk, more of a paranoia.
There are only a handful of cases in the entire country in any given year. THey are given so much publicity that many people believe that it just happens all the time and around every corner.
It happens just as often from a locked home (if not more) than from a car parking lot.
I do access risks all the time when I make decisions about my children, but the risk of stranger abduction doesnt often make it into my assessment.
(my kids are more likely to be killed by my spouse or a family friend than a stranger. And yet I keep my dh and friends around)
joline

Thank you Joline. I realize we're going OT here but I feel the same way.

I think the OP did the best she could under the circumstances.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nannymom*
I disagree that this is an issue about supporting mothers. Leaving kids in a car can be deadly-weather, criminals, car accidents ( cars do get hit by other cars in parking lots) etc. I have been hugely pregnant running my bosses errands and had to just suck up the fact of dragging a five year old and a one year old with me. Part of having kids is being responsiable for them even if it is inconvient.

ditto. i've been hugely hyperemetically pg carrying a toddler, i've been a partnerless parent of a toddler, yeah, things can be a pita. but regardless, you don't leave your kids alone in that situation. (i've mentioned while shopping, 'hey, i've got my kids in the car' & then, 'oh, uh my dd's 18' & seen the visible 'whew' of relief on people's faces.) are we supposed to turn our heads to straightforward neglect?

police & social workers may indeed make her life annoying & uncomfortable for awhile. maybe if the specter of injured/dead kids doesn't phase her from doing it again, the possibility of the nuisance of court appearances may. what is important is their safety, not her convenience.

susan


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama*
Culture of fear, whatever.

No, not whatever. The phrase "culture of fear" comes from the title of a well known (1999 NYT bestseller) book by USC professor Barry Glassner. It's called "The Culture of Fear, Why Americans are Afraid of the Wrong Things: Crime, Drugs, Minorities, Teen Moms, Killer Kids, Mutant Microbes, Plane Crashes, Road Rage, & So Much More." Prof. Glassner was featured in Michael Moore's documentary "Bowling for Columbine," which you might have seen.

You might want to take a look at the book. Or not. Whatever.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaBug*
I can't resist, really I try but I can't. I don't want to be this worried or paranoid but I am. And honestly I am not willing to be that one in a million person that this kind of thing happens to, kwim? You always hear, this was such a good community, we had no idea .......I am just not willing to take a chance when it's not necessary. I do not want my child to be a statistic

I don't mean this in a confrontational way at all... but why do you think you've chosen to focus on THAT particular statistic?

After all... there are MANY things that are far more likely to happen to children... getting struck by lightening, for example. Or, having an accident in the home. Or, something that is also horrible - being molested by a friend or relative.

Could it possibly be that the media has sensationalized kidnappings and "stranger danger" to the extent that it has become ingrained in all of us to be paranoid about a fear that is, not nonexistent, but very very slim?


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd*
No, not whatever. The phrase "culture of fear" comes from the title of a well known (1999 NYT bestseller) book by USC professor Barry Glassner. It's called "The Culture of Fear, Why Americans are Afraid of the Wrong Things: Crime, Drugs, Minorities, Teen Moms, Killer Kids, Mutant Microbes, Plane Crashes, Road Rage, & So Much More." Prof. Glassner was featured in Michael Moore's documentary "Bowling for Columbine," which you might have seen.

You might want to take a look at the book. Or not. Whatever.

Oooh. So maybe those guys really _did_ want to give me a puppy and candy? My mistrust was wrong. Rock on. Or maybe they were a fiction created by the media. Well, I suppose parents are doing their kids a favor by leaving them in the car while out doing retail therapy, as there is nothing to be concerned about. Um, okay. I'm out of this discussion...

OT, I am familiar with that book. He also says that abuse by priests was very uncommon in comparison to the "fear" surrounding them, and bashes Andrew Greeley. He also mocks people who think their children were harmed by the DPT vaccine, which our pediatric group also insisted was a bad vaccine with serious reactions for many children. I suppose they are fearmongering. He has some good points, and on others, he's way off.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Having been a child that was left in the car frequently (often watching my 1 nd 2 year old siblings) I can say that it was not fun. I absolutely hated it and I was terrified being left in the car. Not something that I would ever do to my kids.

Sure people get struct by lightning, you take steps to avoid it happening, like not let your kids play outside in a storm. I think not letting your kids alone in what could potentially be a dangerous situation isn't being over protective, it's being cautious.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

To Op- I don't think you need to feel bad or apologetic for your actions. That was a tough situation.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I'll have to read Culture of Fear. Sounds like something w/which I agree.

I don't think 911 & police involvement was necessary. Remember that mother who smacked her kid in a parking lot? Some sort of travelling gypsy clan? I think that sort of situation does warrant police intervention. But, not this. Especially not as the situation was described. Just waiting nearby and talking to the Mom prob. would've been effective if she was receptive.

A mom here left her kids in a locked car for just a couple of minutes and was put in jail immediately. I don't remember the outcome, etc. but remember being shocked at how severe the consequences were. And, long lasting I would imagine.


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
ICould it possibly be that the media has sensationalized kidnappings and "stranger danger" to the extent that it has become ingrained in all of us to be paranoid about a fear that is, not nonexistent, but very very slim?










Absolutely.


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## nannymom (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd*
Absolutely.

Sure that's true but why risk it?


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## Nurturing Mama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Could it possibly be that the media has sensationalized kidnappings and "stranger danger" to the extent that it has become ingrained in all of us to be paranoid about a fear that is, not nonexistent, but very very slim?









I don't really care how slim the chance of my child being kidnapped is, it is still there. I really can think of nothing worse than my child being at the whim of some freak, and I will always do everything in my power to avoid that possibility. I think it is irresponsible to expose children to that risk, no matter how slim the chance of it happening.

To the OP, I probably would have waited around for the mom to come back and talked to her, but it was a tough situation and you did what you could.

Carrie


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
Having been a child that was left in the car frequently (often watching my 1 nd 2 year old siblings) I can say that it was not fun. I absolutely hated it and I was terrified being left in the car. Not something that I would ever do to my kids.

I'm curious if there is anyone on this board who was left in a car with younger sibs to watch who would do the same thing to their kids? People who went through this as kids seem universal in their feeling that it is a mean thing to do to a child.

I was never left in a car as a child. My grandparents used to leave my mom in a car while they went into bars to drink. She considers it a form of child neglect to leave a child in a car. I don't think there is a difference between leaving a kid in a car to shop and leaving a kid in the car to have a quick drink. Both seem pretty stupid to me.

I honestly cannot believe that moms who are AP can believe that it is OK to leave children unattended in a car. Sleep with your babies, don't use a sitter, and then leave them in the car and go shopping


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
I'm curious if there is anyone on this board who was left in a car with younger sibs to watch who would do the same thing to their kids? People who went through this as kids seem universal in their feeling that it is a mean thing to do to a child.

I was never left in a car as a child. My grandparents used to leave my mom in a car while they went into bars to drink. She considers it a form of child neglect to leave a child in a car. I don't think there is a difference between leaving a kid in a car to shop and leaving a kid in the car to have a quick drink. Both seem pretty stupid to me.

I honestly cannot believe that moms who are AP can believe that it is OK to leave children unattended in a car. Sleep with your babies, don't use a sitter, and then leave them in the car and go shopping









My 13 year old daughter BEGS to be left in the car, and has for years.
She doesnt always want to stop listining to her music, or readnig her book or whatever.
After she was 8 or 9 or so I would let her stay in the car alone for a quick run into the store. (alone) and after her siblings came, it has been natural for her to stay in the car with them too.
WHen given the choice between helping me corral my 3 toddlers and just staying in the car with them it is is HER choice to stay in the car.
So I would not say it is universal that all kids hate it.
In fact I would say that some children even prefer it.

joline


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
I honestly cannot believe that moms who are AP can believe that it is OK to leave children unattended in a car. Sleep with your babies, don't use a sitter, and then leave them in the car and go shopping

It was only a matter of time before the "good AP mama" checklist made an appearance I guess...

To all the people who wouldn't risk leaving their children in the car alone, don't do it. No one is advocating that you do. Just don't be calling the police on people who make different choices because you can imagine all the things that could possibly go wrong. Remember that the tables can turn quickly and something you choose to do could strike someone else as "neglect."


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
I'm curious if there is anyone on this board who was left in a car with younger sibs to watch who would do the same thing to their kids? People who went through this as kids seem universal in their feeling that it is a mean thing to do to a child.

My parents left me in the car frequently (I requested it frequently too) so I could read and listen to music while they did boring adult stuff. I didn't have any younger sibs though so I don't know about that.

Quote:

I honestly cannot believe that moms who are AP can believe that it is OK to leave children unattended in a car. Sleep with your babies, don't use a sitter, and then leave them in the car and go shopping








I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's ideal, just questioning how dangerous it really is and whether it's worth calling the police on someone for.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I would have shouted my head off in the store before calling police. And I would have phrased it to the mom as "There is a woman out there who wants me to call the police because your kids are in the car."

I do not ever leave my kids in the car and I won't when they're older, either. I live in a dangerous neighborhood and my DH is very paranois, so that influences my thinking.

I'm always surprised by people who leave their kids in the car. My friend leaves her 8 y.o. son in the car while she grocery shops. Another frined leaves her 2 year old in the car if she's asleep and she is shopping a "safe distance." I really don't get it!!


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## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

My mom used to leave me and my younger brother in the car all the time. She'd be in Kmart or whatever and we'd be out in the car, alternately playing and fighting. :LOL Nothing ever happened to us, but...

My DH was TWO years old, and his parents brought him to a cemetary. They got out of the car, and walked a few feet away to a headstone. My FIL had taken the keys out of the ignition and left them on the dashboard.

My TWO YEAR OLD DH picked up the keys, found the right one, started the car and had it in reverse by the time his dad caught up to him. He'd driven over a few headstones at that point :LOL

Funny now, but just one of the several billion things that could go wrong leaving kids in a car. Who ever would have thought that he'd be able to start the car AND get it in gear? But he did.

I won't leave my kids in a car, even if I'm running in for a second.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
I'm curious if there is anyone on this board who was left in a car with younger sibs to watch who would do the same thing to their kids? People who went through this as kids seem universal in their feeling that it is a mean thing to do to a child.

I was, with two sisters two and four years younger than me. We were never scared, in fact we LOVED being away from parental supervision for a few minutes. We had a lot of fun. But then, we were not brought up to believe that kidnappers were lurking about waiting for us. We walked to school by ourselves as well, once I was old enough (8) to be trusted to take the other two across the street. I had a friend whose mother still picked her up and dropped her off when she was 10. All the other kids used to tease her about this, it was considered babyish in the extreme. This, by the way, was in New York City in the 1970s.


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## klvsjc (Oct 6, 2005)

Joline, I guess I would have to agree with you on most of your posts!!!!

I think the original poster did what she thought was right and she didn't know how long those kids had actually sat there. So that was understandable...
I think i would also do what I could do b4 calling the police, which the original poster did...

I would never leave my kids to go shopping but to run in and pay for gas or get a soda...?? or run in the house b/c i forgot something. I don't think that is necessarily wrong. If it was against the law in my state, i wouldn't do it... b/c it would be against the law... I have never leave my kids where I can't see them but i have left them to go pay for gas and etc... I am a military spouse whose husband isn't always around... and we live in places where we don't always know people... You don't know the situation the mother was in... I also don't agree with what she did, but again we don't know her situation.

But I think that you all are getting all upset and everything over something that is over and done.... It is a good thing to talk about it, b/c it does make us think twice when we are in similar situations( as in the op or the mom)... but to get rude with other people on this site.... that is uncalled for.

Kimberly


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I don't mean this in a confrontational way at all... but why do you think you've chosen to focus on THAT particular statistic?

After all... there are MANY things that are far more likely to happen to children... getting struck by lightening, for example. Or, having an accident in the home. Or, something that is also horrible - being molested by a friend or relative.

Could it possibly be that the media has sensationalized kidnappings and "stranger danger" to the extent that it has become ingrained in all of us to be paranoid about a fear that is, not nonexistent, but very very slim?










Honestly I don't just worry about this. I also worry about lightening, choking, falling.....the list I worry about is endless. I do what I can to make the risks less but still let my children live thier lives. They do NOT need to be left alone in a car, they are only 5 & 7 and one day I may feel they are old enough to be left, but for right now I don't.

Nurturing Mama you and I are on the same page. I don't care how small the risk is, the fact is there IS a risk and I am not willing to take it with my children. Just like I am not willing to let my children ride their bikes all over the neighborhood unsupervised, they just don't need to do that and run the risk of being taken. I would never be able to forgive myself if something happened to my child and I could have prevented it. Parents all make decisions that they think are best, in no way do I think leaving a 9 year old in charge of an infant is a good idea, but again that is MY opinion. If ppl want to take what I feel are risks that is their choice and if something does happen they have to deal with it, not me, kwim


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## fire_lady (Aug 24, 2005)

Even though we think that a 7-10 yo child is responsible enough to look after a baby, I wouldn't suggest to left them inside the care. You will never know when accidents will happen.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
My 13 year old daughter BEGS to be left in the car, and has for years.
She doesnt always want to stop listining to her music, or readnig her book or whatever.
After she was 8 or 9 or so I would let her stay in the car alone for a quick run into the store. (alone) and after her siblings came, it has been natural for her to stay in the car with them too.
WHen given the choice between helping me corral my 3 toddlers and just staying in the car with them it is is HER choice to stay in the car.
So I would not say it is universal that all kids hate it.
In fact I would say that some children even prefer it.

joline

My sibilings and I loved staying in the car. My mom always gave us a choice, and about half the time we'd stay in the car. I'm the oldest, and never felt burdened by "watching" my sibilings.

My ds1 is almost 13, and ds2 is 3. I will leave them in the car to go to the ATM, or run into the bank.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

Here on the store doors they have signs that say "no kids left in cars" It's sad they have to make signs for something that should be common sense!

If I saw small kids in a car I would have waited by the car too and if the mom didnt come out, I'd probably call too. Better safe than sorry IMO. I used to "watch" my brothers in the car when I was a kid too but they werent babies and I still hated it cause they always argued and drove me nuts! LOL Or one would jump out of the car and I was supposed to be keeping them in but they wouldnt listen cause "you are not the mom!" bla bla bla......

Sure sometimes it would be nice to be able to leave ds in the car after he fell asleep in his carseat so I could run a package to the post office and not lug him out with my big pregnant self but it's not the safest for HIM, it would just be convienent for ME, which would be totally selfish IMO. Not to mention if he got stolen, hurt, hit by a car, woke up crying, hot (we live in a hot climate)......I would absolutely want to die because he would be hurt because of something I did wrong, yk? Why chance it?


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

If it was here (where the afternoon temp is still in the high 90's to triple digits), I'd have called the cops in a heartbeat, assuming I couldn't persuade the older kid to roll down the windows or open the door. If I could, then I'd have gotten the kids out of the car, including the baby, and stood with them beside it until the mother came out of the store, or, maybe, had the older one call mom on the cell phone and tell her to get outside because a crazy lady made them get out of the car.

10 minutes in a car in the sun here is enough to endanger a baby's life, even with tinted windows.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

I have not read all of the replies - it's a hard call. I think I would have just watched the car and if the mom wasn't back in say, 10 minutes, then I would call - or knock on the window and ask if the kids are alright. When I was a kid - 7,8,9 - I remember preferring to wait in the car while my mom ran a quick errand and she always left my sisters with me.

I think (hope) a mother knows her children and whether or not the oldest is responsible enough to stay put and mind the others for a few minutes. Lord knows when my DD is asleep in the car (the only place she'll sleep) I have been tempted to leave her there while I run in somewhere real quick (meaning less than 3 minutes LOL). Of course I never have but if I had an older child to stay with her, I probably would. Depending on where I was of course.


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## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
At least where I live, children under the age of 11 can not be left in a car alone or with others under this age.

Running in to a store, even for "5 minutes" will get you in trouble (endangering the life of a minor).

I have no problem calling the police to report a crime.

The law is not a "value judgment" It's the law, pure and simple. If you think it is wrong, seek to have it changed.


My question is - do you also call when you see a car swerving all over the road? Or speeding? Or running red lights?

Or do you assume they're just a "bad driver" and forget about it?

Because the liklihood of "something" happening to kids in a car is FAR FAR FAR LESS than the liklihood of kids being killed due to reckless driving, either on the part of the parent driving (reaching to get dropped sippy/book/snack) or on the part of a stranger more concerned with their own value judgements than the responsibilities to the larger community on the road.


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## HippoMommy (Sep 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrs.felt*
absolutely not! paging something like that over the loudspeaker is practically an invitation for any sicko that might be listening to bolt out to the parking lot, knowing that there are unattended children and do something horrible to the children. same reason if there is a lost child in a department store, managers or other store associates guard all doors and are informed of the child's description and last known whereabouts before ANY page is made.

Oh my goodness, I didn't think of it that way. I certainly would have stayed and watched the children so that if they were "visited" by anyone they didn't know, it would have been apparent to me and I could have helped them. But I do understand your point. Goodness.


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## CountryMom2e (Apr 1, 2005)

I would have called 911. A 9 yr old is not old enough to supervise a young child in the car, period. She should have taken the youngest in with her - I could see leaving a 9 & 7 year old for a few minutes but not with a baby.


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## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

Would you believe I had a nightmare last night that I locked my 4mo DD in the car to run into work to grab something and when I came out, someone had stolen my car, and left me a note that I should know better than to leave a baby in a car alone? :LOL In the dream, I thought it was my husband, teaching me a lesson, but it turned out to be a stranger, who, when I found him, wouldn't give me back my daughter because I'd left her in the car in teh first place.

I woke up in TEARS.

Nope, like I said previously, I'd NEVER leave my kids in a car, not even for a minute. Maybe I"m paranoid, sure. But if something, ANYTHING, did happen, I'd never be able to forgive myself!


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## kiwimutti (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klvsjc*
I would never leave my kids to go shopping but to run in and pay for gas or get a soda...?? or run in the house b/c i forgot something. I don't think that is necessarily wrong. If it was against the law in my state, i wouldn't do it... b/c it would be against the law... I have never leave my kids where I can't see them but i have left them to go pay for gas and etc...

This is me also... I am not feeling comfortible when I run in to pay for gas even *with my eyes on my car*...and some days I feel like the unease/guilt isnt worth the "quickness and undesturbed bubs"...but I still do it other days...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd*
No one is advocating that you do. Just don't be calling the police on people who make different choices because you can imagine all the things that could possibly go wrong. Remember that the tables can turn quickly and something you choose to do could strike someone else as "neglect."

well said!!

I am afraid of the "police calling people" ...I think about this alot and it is particularly freaky to me because there is alot of things I do differently because I am amoung people of a completly different culture than myself plus the ap/natural thing as well.

Im doing what I believe is best for my family (*even if I am breaking the law* in this state...

...using a midwife for example if anyone called the cops about her (after all she broke *the law*)..she would go straight to jail...

...the idea of other people calling the cops on me about my parenting choices gives me as much of the creaps as someone kidnapping my kids...it'd be the same outcome in my mind. who says a cop or temp. foster home wont moleste your child??...or do mainstream stuff to them (like medicate )-eeek -... alot of which i think should be *against the law* .


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## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

I am afraid of the "police calling people" ...I think about this alot and it is particularly freaky to me because there is alot of things I do differently because I am amoung people of a completly different culture than myself plus the ap/natural thing as well.

Im doing what I believe is best for my family (even if I am breaking the law in this state...

...using a midwife for example if anyone called the cops about her (after all she broke the law)..she would go straight to jail...

...the idea of other people calling the cops on me about my parenting choices gives me as much of the creaps as someone kidnapping my kids...it'd be the same outcome in my mind. who says a cop or temp. foster home wont moleste your child??...or do mainstream stuff to them (like medicate )-eeek -... alot of which i think should be against the law .

******

hear, hear! ITA


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## klvsjc (Oct 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Originally Posted by maya44
At least where I live, children under the age of 11 can not be left in a car alone or with others under this age.

Running in to a store, even for "5 minutes" will get you in trouble (endangering the life of a minor).

I have no problem calling the police to report a crime.

The law is not a "value judgment" It's the law, pure and simple. If you think it is wrong, seek to have it changed.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
My question is - do you also call when you see a car swerving all over the road? Or speeding? Or running red lights?

Or do you assume they're just a "bad driver" and forget about it?

Because the liklihood of "something" happening to kids in a car is FAR FAR FAR LESS than the liklihood of kids being killed due to reckless driving, either on the part of the parent driving (reaching to get dropped sippy/book/snack) or on the part of a stranger more concerned with their own value judgements than the responsibilities to the larger community on the road.

True that!!! You know ever since I read this forum a week back or so... I have thought about it everyday... It has really bugged me...No nightmares... Thank God!!! I have been thinking about what I would do in this situation... What would I do if ever in this situation??? At first after thinking hard, B4 I read this site... I actually probably would have called the cops or told someone in the store that worked there... But now I guess I would say I would probably wait there till the mom came out... Where I live in El Centro... Right now it still ranges in the 100's or higher 90's and probably will till next summer then it gets in the 110's-120's... So in this case I would definately try to get the kids to come out or call their mom on the cell... But I would think here that parents would be more cautious b/c it does get so hot...

kiwimutti- you know, I also sometimes feel guilty about leaving them in the car--strapped in--to go pay for my gas...but I still usually do(I rarely leave my house though) But there are other times I have felt an uneasiness and have hauled them both in just to be in there less than two minutes... I always take in the situation b4 I do it...

You know we can worry about our kids...but there is also taking it to the extreme...Although my parents would leave us in the car sometimes... I was the oldest of 6 kids.. They wouldn't let us do stuff with our friends very much b/c they "worried" about us... We resented them for that...so much that when I left the house.... I went crazy.... literally... i was a wild child and did everything my parents wouldn't let me do...for at least 1 1/2 years and then got pregnant... and that alone is what made me settle down... I quit partying and drinking and everything else for my kids... b/c they deserve that, but I hope that they never resent me b/c I worry so much and don't let them do anything...
I know this last paragraph doesn't really go with the whole kids left in the car/but kinda it does... I don't know, it just seems that some of you moms i would definately resent being my mom b/c you worry too much... I love my (step)mom so so so much...She is one of my best friends, but as a kid i resented her...I just think some of you should think about that...

Maybe I overstepped my limits.. and if I did I am sorry...

Kimberly


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

I agree that the OP did the right thing. Too many strange people and things that can go wrong in a minute.


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
i think our society makes it nearly impossible for parents to do the simplest of errands. We don;t know anyone in the mega parking lots, and whenever we need the basics, we often have to drive miles to do so. We are tired, and we trust no neighbors, who might be willing to say "hey-- let me watch your kids for five freaking minutes while you return a piece of crap or get 5 minutes to yourself".

We have to do every freaking little thing by oursleves. With little kids in tow, who might not want to be there, and who crab so other mothers can think "why is that woman *here* with her kids!???"

This society is wrong. Period. I can't be talked out of that belief. To create community in this society takes a heap of effort, and not all folks are trusting of that, or up to the work.

If we had neighbors we accepted, imperfect as they might be, or if we lived in a society which accepted it was OK to leave the babes happily sleeping in prams, with sibs, whatever, we could get itshay done.

In our society we are supposed to keep the tile clean, keep the kids clean (god forbid they go into stores dirty) the dh's shirts clean, the house organized, and omg, never, ever, try to do an errand in the day with children in tow. Children who might not want to do errands.

That's garbage. Those are *wrong* expectations.

If we knew our neighbors, weren't forced to shop in huge malls, we would not have to do everything ourselves or have to call 911 on other unsupported mothers who drop the ball for a few frigging minutes.

Havn't read all the replies, but







:


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## cherylannl (Oct 14, 2005)

It is ok that you did what you did.

I never left my babies in the car, even for 1 minute.

As far as reporting others to the police, that is up to you.

I personally wouldnt have done it unless they were in danger, like for heatstroke or car on fire, because I dont like the way millions of moms treat their kids(spanking, etc.) so if I was a reportng type person I would be reporting almost everyone.


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## ajsgirl (Mar 31, 2004)

I would have called non-emergency police too. I think what you did was right.

My step brothers and I were left in a car parked, in gear, on a hill when we were about 6/7/8 yrs old while our parent ran into the DMV for a few minutes. We were into the Dukes of Hazzard and thought how fun it would be to play it for real. My brother told me to "shift it Daisy!" and I did, shifting the car out of gear. We started rolling backward down the hill and crashed into a brand new Cadillac. Everyone was ok, but I'll never forget it, and I'll never leave my kids alone in the car.


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## Mariposa (Nov 12, 2002)

to the OP, i think you did the right thing.


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## loomweaver (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowdypea*
Jamie what happened to you and your brother gives me the chills! I remember being left in the car with my sister often. With the engine running too, if it was cold out. And my parents were very responsible. I guess that was the norm back then?? Seems strange now, though.

I was thinking about the same thing with my parents....
also VERY responsible people.....of course we didn't even have car seats back then and the baby was always in the front seat! :LOL


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## loomweaver (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*
To Op- I don't think you need to feel bad or apologetic for your actions. That was a tough situation.
















:


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## loomweaver (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
.. there are MANY things that are far more likely to happen to children... getting struck by lightening, for example. Or, having an accident in the home. Or, something that is also horrible - being molested by a friend or relative.

Could it possibly be that the media has sensationalized kidnappings and "stranger danger" to the extent that it has become ingrained in all of us to be paranoid about a fear that is, not nonexistent, but very very slim?









So sad but true...

This was an interesting thread and really got me to think about my choices for mine and others' children...


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## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ajsgirl*
I would have called non-emergency police too. I think what you did was right.

My step brothers and I were left in a car parked, in gear, on a hill when we were about 6/7/8 yrs old while our parent ran into the DMV for a few minutes. We were into the Dukes of Hazzard and thought how fun it would be to play it for real. My brother told me to "shift it Daisy!" and I did, shifting the car out of gear. We started rolling backward down the hill and crashed into a brand new Cadillac. Everyone was ok, but I'll never forget it, and I'll never leave my kids alone in the car.

Isn't this the reason that cars now require you to depress the brake before shifting? You can't move the car unless you have the break on? So cars made post-1989 (or thereabouts) the "shift and then move" can't happen?

Every post where I read that their parents left them in the car, I can only imagine that it was a 1970s era car (yes, showing my age!) where kids being left = car moving. I just don't think that's true anymore. Please correct me if I'm wrong!


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
Isn't this the reason that cars now require you to depress the brake before shifting? You can't move the car unless you have the break on? So cars made post-1989 (or thereabouts) the "shift and then move" can't happen?

Every post where I read that their parents left them in the car, I can only imagine that it was a 1970s era car (yes, showing my age!) where kids being left = car moving. I just don't think that's true anymore. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

In our 2005 Honda Civic you can shift into neutral without pressing anything first.


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## hopeland (Oct 15, 2005)

We live in a society where children are abducted every day!!! A cell phone would be of little use if a stranger came along to abduct a child. Also if there were another typr of emergency like a child choking etc. the cell phone wouldn't do much good.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof4peppers*
Isn't this the reason that cars now require you to depress the brake before shifting? You can't move the car unless you have the break on? So cars made post-1989 (or thereabouts) the "shift and then move" can't happen?

Every post where I read that their parents left them in the car, I can only imagine that it was a 1970s era car (yes, showing my age!) where kids being left = car moving. I just don't think that's true anymore. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Ah, yes... the very reason we'll never buy a Dodge again ... our 2000 Dodge Caravan (a gift from my father, although we paid the balance of the loan) can be put into drive with just a pull of the gear shifter. Of course the van has to be running, but still... to be able to engage the gears without depressing the brake!!!







An accident waiting to happen!


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

velochic- pretty sure there was a recall on that a few years back. I'll poke around when I can, and see if I can find the info. But it was a number of minivans, not just the Dodge.


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## Stephanie6603 (Oct 14, 2005)

it doesn't matter if she forgot her credit card and ran in to get it, you should NEVER leave your kids in the car unattended. We live in an apt. first floor and our car is parked literally 25 feet from our front door and their have been at least 5 times that i got her all buckled in and forgot my cellphone. it's such a pain in the neck, but I unbuckle her and go in and get it. I don't need ANY of my neighbors seeing me leaving her in the car and I would never do that to her, ESPECIALLY in a mall parking lot. and yes, some pedaphile could steal the kids, or they could get hurt , etc. Really bad decison on the moms part. Heck, if there is a dog in the car on a warm day, I like to wait around for the owner and give them a piece of my mind!


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Hmmm, I'm not sure what my opinion is yet....but I will say this.

My redcross CPR certified 9yo dd is VERY capable of taking care of an infant and younger sibling. If the middle child acted up my dd would have picked up her cell phone and called me. That being said I only leave the kids in the car while I'm at the walk up ATM machine or paying for gas. At home though, my dd cares for her younger sibling frequently, while i'm out mowing the lawn, walking the dogs etc.

-Heather


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

I'm curious if there is anyone on this board who was left in a car with younger sibs to watch who would do the same thing to their kids? People who went through this as kids seem universal in their feeling that it is a mean thing to do to a child.
After about age 7 or 8, my parents frequently left my sister and I in the car, especially if we didn't feel like running in somewhere. The only time it was a problem is when they were gone for a lot longer than I expected and I started worrying about them. I much preferred staying in the car to doing my parents errands with them. My sister is about 17 months younger than me, btw.

And I also remember, when I was about 8 or 9 (couldn't have been more than 9 1/2, since we had moved from the house I remember by then), being left home alone for short periods during the day on a few occasions during the day when my parents went out. And my mom is biggest worrier I've ever met in my life. Or I thought she was until I read some of the posts here.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hopeland*
We live in a society where children are abducted every day!!! A cell phone would be of little use if a stranger came along to abduct a child. Also if there were another typr of emergency like a child choking etc. the cell phone wouldn't do much good.

Children are abducted every day-- _by their non-custodial parents_. Very few children are abducted by strangers. IIRC, it's a heck of a lot less than 365/year; stranger abduction most assuredly does not happen every day. Not even close.

I don't know about anyone else, but by nine I had taken a CPR course at camp.







We learned all sorts of recussitation techniques from a nurse who visited our school, too. It came right after fire safety month, iirc-- the general, "how to be safe if" course. Don't they teach these things to kids anymore?


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## lizzytpa (Oct 14, 2005)

My daughter is two and she falls asleep alot when she rides in the car. I leave her in the car in my driveway when i get home from work sometimes because we live on a dead end road and i can see her from my front window. I know it's not the best idea but i try to be consious of weather(if it's xtreme hot/cold i bring her in). I always take her out at public places because of how busy the town/ shopping malls are. I wouldn't want what happened to the lady to happen to me. Also I think if you are going to leave a child in the car for a short amount of time(no longer than 10 min) they should be a responsible age (10&up) and have a "procedure" should anything occur (examp.child can dial 911 themselves and understands to "stay put" or how to responsibly find you--cross streets, goes to cust desk and has you paged).
Definately no infants left alone or in a car unless child of app.age with them-(14&up) . in response to the "snatching"- kids can get abducted even being right by there parents side so that is an unfair example.


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## hopeland (Oct 15, 2005)

I think it is often enough not to leave kids in the car unsupervised!


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## momof4peppers (May 31, 2005)

Thanks VeloChick and RedWine. I honestly believed that you couldn't switch gears without depressing the brake. And oddly, my 2005 Honda Pilot you MUST depress the brake to shift. I tried it today (sans kids!). (and I know that I couldn't shift without depressing my brake on my 1990 Acura - I foolishly called AAA because my car was running but wouldn't move. The mechanic was like 'lady, you're an idiot. you need to press the BRAKE first! insert best smack-head symbol here)

I wonder why it's different on the same-model year Civic? Wouldn't you think they would have the same requirements?


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## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

To the OP - I would have done what you did. Try to find the mom, but if I couldn't, I would have called non emergency. Unless it was hot outside - then I probably wouldn't have taken the time to try to find the mom. JMHO.


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## HippyMama4kids (Sep 17, 2005)

Quote:

I may have asked the store to do an intercom call for a mom who left her kids in the car, though---
I have done this before with a woman that left her small child in the car whilst she went to do her shopping. Actually I have no idea who she is, but she's done it twice that I've seen when we've been there (she has a very old, very unusual car.)
We drive 100kms to do our shopping at a larger town, so I don't actually 'know' her.
The 2nd time it was in the middle of summer whilst I was sitting in the car with the doors open breastfeeding Ethan. I would have fed him in the shop, but a feeding a newborn on the window sill of the shop is no easy feat, (ended up doing it a couple of times when he was older & wanted a feed NOW








)
Her car was parked next to mine, & this poor boy all of 2 was left there to sit & wait whilst his Mother went right through the shop (Woolworths, it takes us a hour to get through all the aisles.) She took in the daughter, but left him in the car







(The first time that I saw her leave him she was pg.)
After 20 minutes I was horrified, took Ethan off the breast & went into the store, up to the Customer Service desk & I had it put over the loudspeaker, I could see her going through the checkout. She didn't hurry up, or go out & get him though until all her items had gone through.
If she hadn't of come out I would have deffinately called the police. The shop workers were all pretty stunned too. Australian summers are pretty darn hot, & the country town we shop in is inland & it just swelters.


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