# Willful Disobedience and God Punishes Us



## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

I've been asked how I will respond to willful disobedience by a friend who knows I will not spank. Since I have only a 15 month old, but how do you other GD-ers handle 'willful' disobedience? She didn't give a specific scenario, but I think she meant anytime a child refuses to do something when directly told. I'll see if I can get what she was thinking of more clearly.

And, I am a Christian, and some of the people I'm around listen to Dobson and Ezzo, and both this friend and another friend responded with "God discipline/punishes us because we have a sin nature."

So I am looking for answers from a Grace-based Discipline perspective.
Thanks!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

My child was never willfully disobedient in the way you describe.

She did things lilke cut her own hair, and cut up a blanket. She got into my makeup, ETC.

But, if I said "stop" she stopped. If I said "put this in your room" she did it.

It just wasn't her nature to be disobedient, and I always treated her with respect.

She had her meltdowns, she had her sassy moments, and all of that, but never anything that required a more severe reaction. So, don't just assume that ALL kids will be willfully disobedient. All kids are born with their own temperment. Some are more challenging than others.

I kinda think God felt like I deserved an easy child. LMAO!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Those situations call for the 'get-off-your-butt' method of parenting. Which I learned here. You get up and physically stop them - either through redirection or gentle restraint if needed - like taking the kid off the chair or the counter and going into a different room.

However, I personally think you really shouldn't engage in these kinds of conversations because all I think they can do for you is make you unsure of yourself. You won't win any arguments or change any minds with research, facts or snappy comebacks. I would just give some kind of vague answer like you will handle each situation as it arises in the best way you know how.

My kind of Christianity believes that we are all perfect children of god, not sinful in nature.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

(N.B. I am not a Christian, although I was raised as one, and my opinion should be read with that in mind, although I am trying to draw my response out of my Christian upbringing as much as possible.

"G-d punishes us" is a rather bleak and lopsided lesson to take away from the example of Jesus' love and sacrifice. As humans, we are imperfect and therefore doomed to error and sin, no matter how sterling our intentions, but even if we believe that parents stand in the same relation to their children as G-d does to human beings (which is kind of a hard sell, IMO), I think we have a duty to remember that, regardless of our imperfections, Christ assures us of G-d's love. If we are to be as G-d to our children, we should endeavor to act towards them with the love and patience shown to us through Christ.

The best way to show our children the way towards grace is to lead them by example.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

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## anywaybecause (Jul 9, 2008)

I have found that if you look at the reason a child is being willfully disobedient, you will usually find a situation that any self-respecting adult would never stand for. For example, if I had an hour to spend and I sat down to play a computer game, then someone came along and told me not to do it (for no reason or for any reason other than they suddenly needed my help), I might get pretty ticked off and tell that person where to stuff their controlling behavior. I would certainly not just happily stop playing my game. But if a child reacts in a similar way, we call it disobedience. (NOT that my kids spend all day playing computer games, but you get the idea.)

So, when someone challenges my choice to not spank my children, even for "willful disobedience," I usually say something along the lines of:

I treat my children the way I would want to be treated.
I show my children the same respect that adults demand for themselves.
I look at the source of my child's frustration and see if there is a middle ground we can reach.
If it's not okay to do to an adult, it's not okay to do to a child.
As long as their safety is not being compromised, I find that most things are negotiable.

If someone pulls out that sinful nature bit again, you can always respond to that with a comment along the lines of "You know, from what I've read in the Bible, I just can't imagine Jesus urging parents to hit their children for any reason" or that the God *you* know is a loving God and not a vengeful one, or that just because we have a sinful nature doesn't mean we can't work as individuals to be as respectful of others as possible.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

First of all, I try to limit the times I ever give a "direct order" that can result in "willful disobedience." I also try to have a realistic expectation of a child's maturity- a lot of what young kids do might be "willful disobedience" in an older child, but is simply a matter of "immature impulse control" in younger ones. And even when they do intentionally go against what you expressly told them- did they understand what you said? (Did they mishear "don't run in the street" as "run in the street"?) Are they just testing limits?

Toddler or preschooler intentionally dumps food, drink, paint, etc, onto the floor? Take away the item they were dumping. If it's non-food, they lose the chance to use such an item for a while. If it's food, I reconsider how the food was being served- too much at once? Child needs a cup with a lid? Child needs more supervision while being fed?

Then, my response depends on the specific situation. DD2 won't help set the table? Often it's easier to set the table without her then assign her another chore later in the day or the next day to make up for it. DS runs away when I tell him it's time for bed? I'll find him, get down to his level and look him right in the eye, and tell him that it's time for bed now, and his lack of cooperation is cutting into snuggle time. Then I follow through, and he might get only 1 minute of snuggle time instead of the usual 10-15.

If it's a matter of not cleaning up toys, I threaten to donate the toys to the thrift store (which I have followed through on, but not without first taking them away temporarily and giving the child plenty of chances to earn them back.) If they won't come in when called, they lose opportunities to play outside next time ("If I can't trust you to come in when playtime is over, then you'll have to stay inside this time. We can try again at XYZ time.")


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## library lady (Sep 3, 2007)

If God punishes, then why do we need to do it? God is taking care of the punishment part for us. We just need to sit back and watch.







:


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

My daughter definately has times of willfull disobedience, where she'll look at me telling her 'no', and smile a bit, and run away. But I see her as learning how I will react, learning the boundaries. And sure, if I spanked her, she'd learn not to do it, but not in a healthy way. *I don't want my child to fear me (or to fear God, either).*

I would never hit a child. I would never hit anyone! There are so many other kinder ways to show a child the appropriate ways to behave, ways that are kind, and respectful of the child and how old they are. Dobson and Ezzo don't take into account a child's individual development, in my opinion.


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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

When your 2 yr old has been told to not dump the cheddar bunnies on the ground, they look at you right in the eyes, and then the dump the cheddar bunnies.. that's willful disobedience and testing boundaries. That's "I heard you, I understand you, and I am willfully going to dump them out just to see what you will do."

Generally, the consequence for that is to restrict all food to the table, period.

What do you do?

When your 4 year old grabs your lipstick out of your purse ( knows not do do that) and then draws on her wall with it (because she is angry that the playdate she wanted to go to got cancelled)..

what do you do? Maybe she can try to help you get the lipstick off, but I have yet to find something that will take it off my child's bedroom wall. Toxic or non toxic.

Your 5 year old lies to you about taking your cell phone and/or your keys and hiding them, causing you to be late or not go to an appointment that afternoon because you needed the phone. The child, as a result of her own decietfulness and lying, prevented you from going somewhere. If you think it will make an impression on her, I suppose you should take away her next playdate.

It is not okay to lie or intentionally hide stuff to make me late, and I dont much care what the emotion behind it was.. jealousy, feeling left out, anger.. it is not okay to lie and hide things just like it's not okay to hit your baby brother on the head with a baton. There really isnt any wiggle room there.

Things to think about!

Think about what your boundaries are. What things are absolutely NOT OKAY and what you will do in those situations.. before they start happening.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Have you checked out this thread in Spirituality?


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IfMamaAintHappy* 
When your 2 yr old has been told to not dump the cheddar bunnies on the ground, they look at you right in the eyes, and then the dump the cheddar bunnies.. that's willful disobedience and testing boundaries. That's "I heard you, I understand you, and I am willfully going to dump them out just to see what you will do."

Generally, the consequence for that is to restrict all food to the table, period.

What do you do?

When your 4 year old grabs your lipstick out of your purse ( knows not do do that) and then draws on her wall with it (because she is angry that the playdate she wanted to go to got cancelled)..

what do you do? Maybe she can try to help you get the lipstick off, but I have yet to find something that will take it off my child's bedroom wall. Toxic or non toxic.

Your 5 year old lies to you about taking your cell phone and/or your keys and hiding them, causing you to be late or not go to an appointment that afternoon because you needed the phone. The child, as a result of her own decietfulness and lying, prevented you from going somewhere. If you think it will make an impression on her, I suppose you should take away her next playdate.

It is not okay to lie or intentionally hide stuff to make me late, and I dont much care what the emotion behind it was.. jealousy, feeling left out, anger.. it is not okay to lie and hide things just like it's not okay to hit your baby brother on the head with a baton. There really isnt any wiggle room there.

Things to think about!

Think about what your boundaries are. What things are absolutely NOT OKAY and what you will do in those situations.. before they start happening.

This whole post makes me uncomfortable. I don't think these actions are "willfully disobedient". Only God can claim to know the thoughts of others, so why are you so sure a 2 year old has evil intentions? As for hiding your keys, this child is CRYING out for you. You see it as bad behavior, I see it as a need you are not fufilling. You can punish the symptom but the underlying issue will remain.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Seems to me that God's punishment of us (if you want to look at it htat way) is the ultimate example of using natural consequences! Things get unpleasant due to our actions -- God doesn't reach out and hit my bottom. I try to emulate that in my discipline of my children -- natural consequences when possible, logical consequences if natural are impractical or dangerous. Explanations and reasoning above all else. God doesn't ask us to go it alone -- he provides pastors and teachers and to emulate him we need to do the same for our kids.

God has already paid the price for our sin -- that includes our children. Jesus did not just die for adults! Therefore, not an issue.

Overall, I also have problems with "willful disobedience" as a concept. Children do what they do for a reason, and its not "just to piss mom (or God) off". Sometimes it seems pretty illogical from our adult perspective, but it doesn't make it evil, just immature.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

When my dd refuses to listen I tell her that I am not offering a choice. From the time she was a toddler I made sure to follow through with my requests by gently helping her to do what I asked her to do. I also put a lot of energy into getting to know my child and figuring out whether she was refusing to do something because she was testing her boundaries, because she was just to worn out or stressed out to cope with any more requests, or because the request was not inline with her actual abilities. Maybe God does punish us for things, but it seems to me that our actions cause natural consequences that vary with the situation and these things don't start happening until we are older and have learned our values and the reasons for them. God doesn't smack us down for not praying one night even when that is what we are suppossed to do, he doesn't smite us when we eat a food we aren't suppossed to eat, he seems to have consequences that are more reasonable and in line with what we do. He also seems to ignore the small stuff, and some of the larger stuff that he can't change, if you read the bible you see how he became a lot gentler about things as time went on. As a parent I have found that as I got more used to parenting I started picking my battles, becoming more aware of my child and her abilities and triggers, and I became more gentle and open to different ideas about appropriate behavior. I truly don't think that God wants parents hitting their children for little things, even if that little thing is the toddler expressing their opinion with their limited vocabulary, I think he has shown us what he wants by his actions and in his writing and if there were more apostoles now I think that he would say that children should be reared gently.


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## anywaybecause (Jul 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
This whole post makes me uncomfortable. I don't think these actions are "willfully disobedient". Only God can claim to know the thoughts of others, so why are you so sure a 2 year old has evil intentions? As for hiding your keys, this child is CRYING out for you. You see it as bad behavior, I see it as a need you are not fufilling. You can punish the symptom but the underlying issue will remain.

ITA. Instead of punishing the 2-year old for dumping the food on purpose, recognize that he/she is learning about cause and effect. Give him/her something it's okay to dump on the floor. Instead of taking away the 5-year old's next playdate (in addition to just being vengeful, you are also punishing the playmate), place your keys and phone on a hook or shelf that is safely out of reach. Part of it has to do with understanding what is age-appropriate behavior, part of it has to do with seeing people in a positive light and not assuming evil intent, and part of it has to do with making certain things more accessible to your children and other things less accessible -- thus avoiding many of the "should know better" problems.

Children don't act out unless they have a need (something THEY see as a need, not something we see as a need) that is not being met. Finding a way to meet that need in a way that is more acceptable to our fragile adult senses of order will be far more productive in the long run.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
However, I personally think you really shouldn't engage in these kinds of conversations because all I think they can do for you is make you unsure of yourself. You won't win any arguments or change any minds with research, facts or snappy comebacks. I would just give some kind of vague answer like you will handle each situation as it arises in the best way you know how.









:

If someone were to try to engage me in a discussion of my parenting for the purpose of trying to change my mind or get me to admit that I'm "wrong," I just wouldn't venture down that path with them -- my decisions are none of their business and aren't up for discussion, and sometimes trying to "explain" to people like that just makes them think that they can get you to change your mind if they just argue ardently enough with you. Ugh.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

I am dealing with these ideas too. I feel like it paints a bad portrait of the Christian faith to simply say "we have a sin nature" without pointing out the fact that we were created in God's image to be filled, in essence, with His own perfection. We do, therefore, crave good because we seek God. A sin nature seems to me like the words used to describe our inability to always do the right thing- how many times do you wish to do the right thing, but fail? So it is in your nature to fail- but that does not mean you are a 100% total failure, right? So I don't think the "experts" who say children are bent on sinning and its up to us to stop them are balanced AT ALL. Children just need guidance to make the right decision and support when they are weak in an area.

If, in trying to respons to this person, you are talking to someone who has a Christian idea of the rod, just point to examples of willful disobedience in the Bible. Jonah was willfully disobedient. God did not reach down and "smite" him- but certainly forcefully redirected him. All the "experts" who insist on the rod for "willful disobedience" give you these puny ideas of what a "rod" is. No, biblically it is not a flexible, thin branch. It was a clodhopper of a walking stick. Ask this person about the use of the "rod" by a shepherd. It was for protecting sheep and on occasion, if a sheep kept straying and was putting itself in danger of being easy prey, the rod would be used to break the sheep's legs, and then the shepherd CARRIED IT. Obviously it was used only for some great extreme, life and death situation, because you wouldn't just keep breaking a sheep's legs over and over, right. Are we to break our kids legs? I think I would only do that if I knew my children were planning to kill someone or something and 911 wouldn't get there in time...

I am not sure of how to handle willful rebellion all the time. I have made mistakes with my son and created a sometimes adversariarelationship between us. Lately I am using puppets to talk through our major upsets, and the puppets "ask" him to help them solve their problems. He has come up with some great solutions. As far as when he directly does something I asked him not to do, we are playing "Simon says" - actually, "Mommy says" to practice following mommy's directions...


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, I don't define what my child does as "willfull disobedience for one." "Christians" like that are always classifying actions in child-negative terms. If my son doesn't do what I want him to do, I say that he is his own person, and not my property or robot to order around. If his actions are dangerous or offensive to someone else, then I will stop him from doing it or remove him from the situation, because he doesn't have the understanding to do it himself.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Thank you for all the replies!!! I really should have asked what instances of 'willful disobedience' she meant. I did take a question from GCM and ask how she responded to spanking, and she couldn't remember any, but gave an example of her mom spanking her little sister so she'd stay in her bed for a nap. It took multiple times, so it 'worked'. I asked why was she getting up, what did the girl need? Mama to lie down with her? I meant to ask how spanking would make the little girl want to stay in bed and go to the verses on perfect love casts out fear and fear comes from punishment(another gem from GCM). But I forgot.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
However, I personally think you really shouldn't engage in these kinds of conversations because all I think they can do for you is make you unsure of yourself. You won't win any arguments or change any minds with research, facts or snappy comebacks. I would just give some kind of vague answer like you will handle each situation as it arises in the best way you know how.

My kind of Christianity believes that we are all perfect children of god, not sinful in nature.

When she first asked, I did say that I wanted to use positive discipline, to which she responded that not all discipline was positive.
I do like engaging people who are open, which she is, she brought it up asking, and is not confrontational or argumentative and if I can get my ducks in row, have ready answers, I think I might 'convert' her.







My best friend OTOH, and I are waaaay too close and both very emotionally involved in our 'sides' and get pretty tense, however, she is a theology student at a seminary, and if I can ever get her to study the 'rod' verses in Hebrew, I think she'd get it. She's very firm on proper systematic theology(building doctrine from the Bible as a whole and not just one book or 2-3 verses.)

I also like these discussions because it helps me firm up why I believe certain things and prepare responses and not just catchy comebacks or glossing over issues, yk?

And I do believe we are born with a sin nature, but it is a parent's job to teach, but the parent cannot fix or remove that, only prepare a child's heart to be open to responding to God, someone else said it very well here. But

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
First of all, I try to limit the times I ever give a "direct order" that can result in "willful disobedience."

Exactly. I was thinking that, but didn't know how to tell her b/c we weren't talking about a specific scenario. But I said that I felt that oftentimes parents set themselves up and make it an 'us against them(children)' situation which opens the door to willful disobedience. I know my mom did. She was very hardline when I was a child, and when she said jump, you asked how high in the air. I might add I have huge anger issues with her, she's also critical, I felt I could never to anything right/to please her, still do. My DH reminded me that she is impossible to please and to just relax and not stress myself trying(when she came to visit for 3 weeks[long story]). She has acquiesed since I said I'd never leave my children with her and my dad if they were going to spank them. My dad is pretty cool. (They read the Contiuum Concept with it when it came out and raised us much much differently than their parents, so they are trying. My mom's parents were very authoritarian. So this is all pretty cool!)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I also try to have a realistic expectation of a child's maturity- a lot of what young kids do might be "willful disobedience" in an older child, but is simply a matter of "immature impulse control" in younger ones. And even when they do intentionally go against what you expressly told them- did they understand what you said? (Did they mishear "don't run in the street" as "run in the street"?) Are they just testing limits?

Yes, a huge part of raising children is understanding what is developmentally appropriate. It was interesting to read in _The Vital Touch_(I forget the author, it's in my car to loan to a friend), that in other countries, children don't have temper tantrums. But then, how often are children ignored in our culture, resulting in their signals not being heeded and a resultant meltdown?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *library lady* 
If God punishes, then why do we need to do it? God is taking care of the punishment part for us. We just need to sit back and watch.







:









Ha!







Good point! My friend is also of the school of thought spank-when-calm, etc, which IMO, if you're calm, surely you can come up with a better way to respond and discipline?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jjawm* 
My daughter definately has times of willfull disobedience, where she'll look at me telling her 'no', and smile a bit, and run away. But I see her as learning how I will react, _learning the boundaries. And sure, if I spanked her, she'd learn not to do it, but not in a healthy way. *I don't want my child to fear me (or to fear God, either).*_

I would never hit a child. _I would never hit anyone! There are so many other kinder ways to show a child the appropriate ways to behave, ways that are kind, and respectful of the child and how old they are._ Dobson and Ezzo don't take into account a child's individual development, in my opinion.

ITA that they don't. I read Dobson's books growing up, and other popular Christian authors and would try to tell my mom how to better communivate with me, but she refused to hear me. I wrote an essay about why I would not spank my children(I was 13?), I hope I can find it, my mom was mad when I did(felt it was a criticism of her), but she doesn't remember now that I wrote it.






















Good points, what I italicized. ITA

I did say to my first friend, not the BF, I wouldn't want my DH to spank me say, for not washing the dishes.







 To which she said, "Well, adults can reason."







So spank a poor kid who can't reason and understand that pain is good? I didn't know what to say to that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IfMamaAintHappy* 
Your 5 year old lies to you about taking your cell phone and/or your keys and hiding them, causing you to be late or not go to an appointment that afternoon because you needed the phone. The child, as a result of her own decietfulness and lying, prevented you from going somewhere. If you think it will make an impression on her, I suppose you should take away her next playdate.

Think about what your boundaries are. What things are absolutely NOT OKAY and what you will do in those situations.. before they start happening.

Yeah, that's why I started this, thnking about these things before getting there.
BTW, I read something recently that talked about lying and how younger children are not necessarily lying in the sense we think of lying, but saying what they wished was true. I know I'm not expressing it as well as the article I read, but it really impressed me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *janasmama* 
Have you checked out this thread in Spirituality?

Thank you!!!! I read the OP and am looking forward to getting to read more.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Seems to me that God's punishment of us (if you want to look at it htat way) is the ultimate example of using natural consequences! Things get unpleasant due to our actions -- God doesn't reach out and hit my bottom. I try to emulate that in my discipline of my children -- natural consequences when possible, logical consequences if natural are impractical or dangerous. Explanations and reasoning above all else. God doesn't ask us to go it alone -- he provides pastors and teachers and to emulate him we need to do the same for our kids.

God has already paid the price for our sin -- that includes our children. Jesus did not just die for adults! Therefore, not an issue.

Overall, I also have problems with "willful disobedience" as a concept. Children do what they do for a reason, and its not "just to piss mom (or God) off". Sometimes it seems pretty illogical from our adult perspective, but it doesn't make it evil, just immature.

Yes, that was my initial, internal response, what is 'willful disobedience'? And Yes, adults do not think like children do. I love one child's idea of where babies come from, daddies have baby boys and mommies have baby girls. It does make sense in a different way that we're used to looking at things, conception, birth, the woman's body, but to me it makes sense, esp. if a child has been told part of a baby is from mommy and part from daddy doesn't fully conprehend they make a baby together.








How can we assume that children see and comprehend things exactly the way adults do? Pish, for that matter, I don't see things the way my husband does, but then his view is much more, ahem, 'logical' and adult-like. We joke that I'm like Calvin, and he is like Hobbes.







But I digress.


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## MrsSurplus (Dec 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IfMamaAintHappy* 
When your 2 yr old has been told to not dump the cheddar bunnies on the ground, they look at you right in the eyes, and then the dump the cheddar bunnies.. that's willful disobedience and testing boundaries. That's "I heard you, I understand you, and I am willfully going to dump them out just to see what you will do."

Gee...I liked this post that some others didn't care for. I do believe that children are quite capable of "willfull disobedience" - the fact that they have a "reason" for it doesn't change the fact that it's willfull and it's disobedience. (For example, I do know the speed limit and sometimes I choose to surpass it. The fact that I'm late to pick up a child matters not to the officer who pulls me over, etc...)

To respond to the OP, I am a Christian and I believe that willfull disobedience needs to be handled immediately...not because we have a "sin nature" (I believe that Scripture teaches that children are not sinners...that "sin is not imputed" to those who cannot understand right from wrong), but because we are to be training our children how to respond to God: with obedience. That said, I think there are a number of ways to respond to willfull disobedience without spanking. While God does "punish" on occasion (David losing his first child with Bathsheba comes to mind), I think He uses "natural consequences" most of the time. Which is what I try to do with willfull disobedience. I also try to set my child up for success. For instance, like a PP said, limiting those things that don't give my child choices...or, being extra careful about things when I know my toddler is tired, hungry, etc...


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Seems to me that God's punishment of us (if you want to look at it htat way) is the ultimate example of using natural consequences! Things get unpleasant due to our actions -- God doesn't reach out and hit my bottom. I try to emulate that in my discipline of my children -- natural consequences when possible, logical consequences if natural are impractical or dangerous. Explanations and reasoning above all else. God doesn't ask us to go it alone -- he provides pastors and teachers and to emulate him we need to do the same for our kids.

God has already paid the price for our sin -- that includes our children. Jesus did not just die for adults! Therefore, not an issue.

Yes, this is what I was thinking when I was thinking of instances where God punished the Israelites, God designed our world with order and cause and effect and set down certain laws with corresponding consequences and benefits, I'm thinking of Deuteronomy 28 where He says you will be blessed if you choose to obey and cursed if you choose to disobey. His punishment/discipline are built in as (super)natural consequences. The Israelites worshipped other gods, and He removed His divine protection and other nations conquered and destroyed them. Which is violent and harsh.

I believe God freely allows us to make choices and let us feel the results of those actions, good or bad. This is a slight rabbit trail, but I do have point. In Christian circles, often people say/infer that once you are saved, then all effects of sin are erased. Salvation=automatic healing. But IMO, people still deal with being humans after the Fall. We will not be able to attain perfection until we're in Heaven, but we can still be more like Jesus. But their inference is wrong IMO, because if you are pg and you are saved, that child is still there, not erased. Abuse is not automatically healed and erased from the victim's memory. Addictions are not always miraculously removed. I believe God can heal like that(in the last two), but God does not remove all the consequences of our sin. I feel like people do not acknowledge that many of the ways we suffer from sin are 'natural consequences', if that makes sense.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
I am dealing with these ideas too. _I feel like it paints a bad portrait of the Christian faith to simply say "we have a sin nature" without pointing out the fact that we were created in God's image to be filled, in essence, with His own perfection. We do, therefore, crave good because we seek God. A sin nature seems to me like the words used to describe our inability to always do the right thing- how many times do you wish to do the right thing, but fail? So it is in your nature to fail- but that does not mean you are a 100% total failure, right? So I don't think the "experts" who say children are bent on sinning and its up to us to stop them are balanced AT ALL. Children just need guidance to make the right decision and support when they are weak in an area._

If, in trying to respons to this person, you are talking to someone who has a Christian idea of the rod, just point to examples of willful disobedience in the Bible. Jonah was willfully disobedient. God did not reach down and "smite" him- but certainly forcefully redirected him. All the "experts" who insist on the rod for "willful disobedience" give you these puny ideas of what a "rod" is. No, biblically it is not a flexible, thin branch. It was a clodhopper of a walking stick. Ask this person about the use of the "rod" by a shepherd. It was for protecting sheep and on occasion, if a sheep kept straying and was putting itself in danger of being easy prey, the rod would be used to break the sheep's legs, and then the shepherd CARRIED IT. Obviously it was used only for some great extreme, life and death situation, because you wouldn't just keep breaking a sheep's legs over and over, right. Are we to break our kids legs? I think I would only do that if I knew my children were planning to kill someone or something and 911 wouldn't get there in time...

The first part is just beautiful. We haven't gotten to the 'rod' verses. I have read AOLFF's articles.
We are born with a sin nature, heh, but as I look at that, it's only found in one verse. Soooo, so much for systemic theology.







But I do believe that we have a God-given desire to please Him and our parents. I know I did, and if my parents had appealed to that in me(perhaps with genuine sadness and disappointment, not the manipulative kind, if that makes sense), I would have much more readily responded instead of becoming angry and defiant at not being heard and being spanked.
I thought I'd read elsewhere that the breaking the sheep's legs was a myth.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpeppers* 
Well, I don't define what my child does as "willfull disobedience for one." "Christians" like that are always classifying actions in child-negative terms. If my son doesn't do what I want him to do, I say that he is his own person, and not my property or robot to order around. If his actions are dangerous or offensive to someone else, then I will stop him from doing it or remove him from the situation, because he doesn't have the understanding to do it himself.

I am of the mind that I cannot control another human being. I've really been mulling it over since reading one of the Mothering articles about tantrums, the naughty chair one. I can influence my children and others, but if I am controlling them, I am behaving in an inappropriate manner, whether the result is apparently beneficial or not. I do not want to control my children, I want them to learn to be self-controlled, and they not learn that if I am controlling their behaviour and always telling them what they can and cannot do or think. In an atmosphere of love and acceptance and gentle guidance children can see modeled behaviour and follow it, developing their own selves and self-control. Ah, now there's my ideal.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsSurplus* 
Gee...I liked this post that some others didn't care for. I do believe that children are quite capable of "willfull disobedience" - the fact that they have a "reason" for it doesn't change the fact that it's willfull and it's disobedience. (For example, I do know the speed limit and sometimes I choose to surpass it. The fact that I'm late to pick up a child matters not to the officer who pulls me over, etc...)

Good point. I can see where a child will purposely choose to not do what a parent directs to test, all the more reason to respond in a self-controlled way, altho' a spanker would say they are self-controlled, so let me say, in a way that models behaviour that I want to see my child copy. I have heard of people saying their older child would spank a younger sibling.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsSurplus* 
To respond to the OP, I am a Christian and I believe that willfull disobedience needs to be handled immediately...not because we have a "sin nature" _(I believe that Scripture teaches that children are not sinners...that "sin is not imputed" to those who cannot understand right from wrong)_, but because we are to be training our children how to respond to God: with obedience. That said, I think there are a number of ways to respond to willfull disobedience without spanking.

ITA, I do believe in the 'Age of Accountability' where children are not guilty of sinning until they can comprehend what they are doing is wrong.

Do you have any verses on that? Ah, James 4:17?


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

I've only skimmed the responses, but my thoughts

1. I'm not sure I believe in willful disobedience in children. The "willful" part implies a knowledge of what one is doing is wrong and why. If that TRUE understanding is there, it's not likely that one would continue the disobedience. If mom says not to dump the crackers on the floor and the kid does it anyway, they're testing something. Testing out what happens when they turn the container upside down or what happens when we do something mom says not to do. The very act of testing implies a LACK of knowledge about the outcome of the situation. I don't go to my mother's house and dump crackers on the floor because I know it makes a huge mess and we'd have to clean it up and the dogs might get into it and get sick and it's otherwise just plain rude, etc. In other words, I KNOW what the result of dumping the crackers will be. My kid may not be able to make those leaps of "if X then Y" yet.

In fact, I think sometimes even _adults_ aren't capable of willful disobedience in certain situations.

2. Lack of impulse control is not disobedience. I think it's SO important to distinguish between the two, especially with very young children. Someone posted an example of getting into mom's purse and drawing on the wall with her lipstick. Of course it varies with the age of the child, but if I know there's something in my purse I don't want my kid to get into (whether it's lipstick or medication or whatever), then it's MY responsibility to keep my purse out of reach. At some point my kid is going to outgrow the impulse to draw on the wall with the lipstick. It's just not something I need to "punish" out of them. That doesn't mean that if it happens that I'm going to cheerily clean it up while they play--they'll certainly be there helping me and we'll have discussions about it. But on the other hand, I don't leave lipstick and permanent markers lying around and I only invest in washable markers and crayons







(and whoever posted this--please don't think I'm singling you out or saying that you've done something wrong. I just took that particular example and ran with it







).

3. My personal religious belief is that God does not punish immediately. There will be a day of judgement (which we have all been amply warned and instructed about), but in the meantime, He allows natural consequences. You abuse your body with illicit substances? It becomes damaged or dies. You commit a crime? Society doesn't want your presence any more (the punishment that follows is the creation of man/society).

Just my .02


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## DaytonsMom (Aug 25, 2007)

i just loved the responses! Great food for thought! Maybe i'll print this whole thread out and give it to my mom. some people said it so much better than i can!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsSurplus* 
Gee...I liked this post that some others didn't care for. I do believe that children are quite capable of "willfull disobedience" - the fact that they have a "reason" for it doesn't change the fact that it's willfull and it's disobedience. (For example, I do know the speed limit and sometimes I choose to surpass it. The fact that I'm late to pick up a child matters not to the officer who pulls me over, etc...)
.

I agree. I also am convinced that children are very much capable of willful disobedience. Just as they are capable of making choices. I think saying a two year old can't possibly choose to be defiant, isn't giving kids enough credit. A two year old can follow directions, they can draw, paint, open big doors, clean up toys, choose books. They are very young humans with brains that make choices. So, if I say "Don't you DARE pour those on the floor" that child most certainly does understand the words, and what those words mean, and if they choose to pour them on the floor, that would be willfull defiance.

I think it's insulting to children to say that they are incapable of such thoughts.


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## MrsSurplus (Dec 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggirayne* 
ITA, I do believe in the 'Age of Accountability' where children are not guilty of sinning until they can comprehend what they are doing is wrong.

Do you have any verses on that? Ah, James 4:17?

That is a good one.

The one that makes it most clear to me is Isaiah 7:16. Speaking of Jesus, it was said, "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken." We know Jesus never sinned, and yet there was a time in His earthly life that, as a child, He didn't "know enough to refuse evil and choose good" - therefore a child in that status is not held accountable (spiritually - as in, being accounted as a "sinner") for that ignorance (and acts that stem from it).

Other verses that work for me (especially in light of Isaiah 7:16) are:
Romans 4:15b- "And where there is no law there is no transgression. "
Romans 5:13b - "But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
I understand these verses to say that if there is no knowledge of God's expectations (children, mentally retarded, etc...), then there is no sin imputed.

Quote:

I'm not sure I believe in willful disobedience in children. The "willful" part implies a knowledge of what one is doing is wrong and why. If that TRUE understanding is there, it's not likely that one would continue the disobedience. If mom says not to dump the crackers on the floor and the kid does it anyway, they're testing something. Testing out what happens when they turn the container upside down or what happens when we do something mom says not to do. The very act of testing implies a LACK of knowledge about the outcome of the situation.
I definitely see what's being said here and I think it's true in some instances, but not in all. Sometimes what a child is testing is his own power...or his parent's resolve in following through when they've issued a directive. KWIM?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I agree. I also am convinced that children are very much capable of willful disobedience. Just as they are capable of making choices. I think saying a two year old can't possibly choose to be defiant, isn't giving kids enough credit. A two year old can follow directions, they can draw, paint, open big doors, clean up toys, choose books. They are very young humans with brains that make choices. So, if I say "Don't you DARE pour those on the floor" that child most certainly does understand the words, and what those words mean, and if they choose to pour them on the floor, that would be willfull defiance.

I think it's insulting to children to say that they are incapable of such thoughts.

I agree with you- older children *are* capable of intentionally defying orders. If my 6yo intentionally dumped crackers all over the floor I'd be super pissed at him because he's old enough to know better. If my friend's 23mo dumped his food on the floor I'd be annoyed at myself for not watching him better or for giving him too much food at once. He's not capable of "willful disobedience" yet.

As for the example above, I'd never phrase it as "don't you DARE pour those on the floor." That's putting the emphasis on the negative behavior you want to prevent. Kids to better with positives- being told what to do instead. If you said "please keep those crackers in the bowl" and/or "let's keep the floor clean!" you've got a better chance of compliance.


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## SkylarJulesmom (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IfMamaAintHappy* 

what do you do? Maybe she can try to help you get the lipstick off, but I have yet to find something that will take it off my child's bedroom wall. Toxic or non toxic.

Way O/T but hair spray will take lipstick off of the wall as long as its not flat paint!


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SkylarJulesmom* 
Way O/T but hair spray will take lipstick off of the wall as long as its not flat paint!

















:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I agree with anywaybecause that willful disobedience is mainly caused when children are expected to comply with situations that no self-respecting adult would stand for. But I also think some adults are all too ready to see everything as willful disobedience.

I agree with Ruthla that much of what adults tend to see as willful defiance in a small child, is simply immature impulse-control.

And I agree with fairiejour that intentionally doing the opposite of what we want, is often a cry for us to take the time to connect with them. To me, willful disobedience is more a rejection of, and moving away from, the other person -- but what I see in small children is that they're trying to get us to come back into their sphere, to pay attention to them and spend time with them. They really are seeking more of us, not less of us.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
To me, willful disobedience is more a rejection of, and moving away from, the other person --

This is, of course, a classic definition of sin.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't spend any time trying to figure out if something was willful disobedience. I feel like I would have to have God-like insight into my child's heart for that, so I just deal directly with what happened.







If something was spilled, it gets cleaned up whether it was deliberate or accidental.

I do believe that we are all born with a "sin nature" and until we are redeemed by Christ it will have hold of us. However I think the grace that goes before salvation pulls on us all in our depraved state, and draws us towards a relationship with God through Jesus. I want my discipline to stay out of the way of that grace and not interrupt how God is working on my children's hearts.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

hi,
i am a christian & would definitely say we base our decisions on what the bible says. we do not spank our children at all. spanking is not biblical, and that is the thing i would point out first and foremost to your friend and other christians. here is a wonderful thread from another mama to her pastor about spanking:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=741370

all other parts of the discussion you've mentioned are null and void in my opinion. they are irrelevant to the real underlying argument: hitting & hurting a child. my husband and i definitely discipline our children, but this can be (and is) accomplished without hurting them or humiliating them.

just my 2 cents.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
all other parts of the discussion you've mentioned are null and void in my opinion. they are irrelevant to the real underlying argument: hitting & hurting a child. my husband and i definitely discipline our children, but this can be (and is) accomplished without hurting them or humiliating them.

I love that letter. I haven't read it in a long time. Thanks for the reminder.

True, but then the "it's for their good" card will likely get pulled. Heh, I wonder if I threw this question out in our couples' Bible study, "Why is it okay to hit children?" what would happen? I'd probably want to never go again. Sigh, I kinda don't already, one gal was asking what books us other moms recommended and said she was interested in Babywise b/c of the controversy.







uke She didn't seem interested in Sears', not controversial enough, I guess. I really intensely dislike Ezzos and Pearls and how people equate their books with the Bible. Now if only God did instantly punish people. . .







Talk about millstones. . . sorry, I'm really annoyed and tired and bitter that Christians don't treat their children as well as other people. Why do they think it's okay to hit kids? Grrr. Okay, going to bed now.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggirayne* 
I love that letter. I haven't read it in a long time. Thanks for the reminder.

True, but then the "it's for their good" card will likely get pulled. Heh, I wonder if I threw this question out in our couples' Bible study, "Why is it okay to hit children?" what would happen? I'd probably want to never go again. Sigh, I kinda don't already, one gal was asking what books us other moms recommended and said she was interested in Babywise b/c of the controversy.







uke She didn't seem interested in Sears', not controversial enough, I guess. I really intensely dislike Ezzos and Pearls and how people equate their books with the Bible. Now if only God did instantly punish people. . .







Talk about millstones. . . sorry, I'm really annoyed and tired and bitter that Christians don't treat their children as well as other people. Why do they think it's okay to hit kids? Grrr. Okay, going to bed now.










well, i would certainly argue if someone said hitting was for a child's "own good". i do agree that _discipline_ is for a child's good, _but_ discipline is *not* hurting, punishing, hitting, humiliating, shaming, etc. the ezzos and the pearls (especially the latter) promote child abuse. they can call it "biblical" & their "god-given right"...but those statements are not true. it is abuse. in the original post, you were concerned about talking to another christian who challenges how you will handle a child that's willfully defiant. it seemed your friend implied that "no" spanking was unbiblical. i disagree with that obviously, and i feel your friend/s would benefit from reading a copy of the letter i linked. in your shoes, i certainly would not get into defining what "willful disobedience" actually is, as that is a debate you will not win ....(we see that in many posts here at MDC and how we all disagree sometimes). if another christian wants to challenge me about not spanking, i need only reply with scripture because it then puts the debate between them and God. how i parent is not up for discussion, and i do not need to defend it of course.... but i believe conversations like this are real opportunities to shed truth about what scripture actually says (or doesn't say) about how we are called to parent. ykwim?


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

I'm really annoyed and tired and bitter that Christians don't treat their children as well as other people.
Aha! Something I am really confused about.... I've read the Pearl's book, and I live in an Amish community where, as far as I know, whippings ARE common.

Amish children seem so much happier and well adjusted... now I know there are other factors. But I keep wondering... in the same way that I believe traditional foods (foods our ancestors ate) are BETTER than modern politically correct health foods, and the same way I believe much of the richness of life has been lost in "improved" industrialized ways of living, is there something about the way our ancestors disciplined their children that is better than pc discipline (non-spanking- since most people I run into do not, it seems to be the more popular MODERN ideology). Anybody have some deep insight into that?

I guess, my nonspanking self wonders... are we really happier when mommy is tense and trying to control the frustration in her voice because she is telling ds to go in timeout for the 3rd time, or when I finally raise my voice (*fail*)- than if I was just some Amish momma who got respect the first time, and never got all frustrated or raised her voice... What sinks in deeper, a skin hurt or a heart hurt?

I'm haunted by these ideas and have trouble answering myself in a way that really settles the issue. At this point *I* do not spank, and dh does- I just say the book of Proverbs with its so-called rod verses were adressed to men (Solomon's son) and it is not feminine to spank. In my heart... it just doesn't feel right. I have verses to back me up and he has verses to back him up.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Aha! Something I am really confused about.... I've read the Pearl's book, and I live in an Amish community where, as far as I know, whippings ARE common.

Amish children seem so much happier and well adjusted... now I know there are other factors. .

Ted Tripp would likely describe that as "whipping them until they are sweet."







I don't know much about Amish culture so I can't speak specifically to that, but I know about spanking culture and a large part of it is the value place on appearances.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anywaybecause* 
I have found that if you look at the reason a child is being willfully disobedient, you will usually find a situation that any self-respecting adult would never stand for. For example, if I had an hour to spend and I sat down to play a computer game, then someone came along and told me not to do it (for no reason or for any reason other than they suddenly needed my help), I might get pretty ticked off and tell that person where to stuff their controlling behavior. I would certainly not just happily stop playing my game. But if a child reacts in a similar way, we call it disobedience. (NOT that my kids spend all day playing computer games, but you get the idea.)

So, when someone challenges my choice to not spank my children, even for "willful disobedience," I usually say something along the lines of:

I treat my children the way I would want to be treated.
I show my children the same respect that adults demand for themselves.
I look at the source of my child's frustration and see if there is a middle ground we can reach.
If it's not okay to do to an adult, it's not okay to do to a child.
As long as their safety is not being compromised, I find that most things are negotiable.

If someone pulls out that sinful nature bit again, you can always respond to that with a comment along the lines of "You know, from what I've read in the Bible, I just can't imagine Jesus urging parents to hit their children for any reason" or that the God *you* know is a loving God and not a vengeful one, or that just because we have a sinful nature doesn't mean we can't work as individuals to be as respectful of others as possible.

Well said. Can you picture Jesus spanking kids b/c they said "no!"? My dd is willfully disobedient quite often. Spanking is not necessary. I try to be respectful and treat her like I would treat an adult. I would not hit my dh if he told me "no!" to a request of putting his socks in the hamper. I simply would not wash his socks the next day. Hampers are for dirty clothes, and I wash the dirty clothes in the hamper.

There are consequences to actions. For instance... I will ask her to put her dirty clothes in the hamper. She may say "No!" I will then ask if she wants to pretend the clothes are a basket ball and the hamper is the basket, and we can take turns throwing them in. If she still says "No!" I say "OK, you don't have to put them in the hamper. But, I am not running the bath water until the clothes are in the hamper." She then has her choice. Put the clothes in the hamper and then be able to do the fun thing, take a bath, OR she can miss her bath that night and get cleaned up with a washcloth if she is actually dirty. ( I can't make a 2 year old wear dirty clothes since she does not have the ability to wash them herself yet, but I would do that method with a 10 year old)

There are choices for adults in life, some have negative consequences, and some choices have positive consequences. As an adult, there are things we HAVE to do, even if we don't want to. We have to wash the dishes, if we want clean dishes to eat on, etc. That is my approach. Humor/game first, and if that does not work, I let a somewhat natural consequence occur.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

After some review I am returning this thread. It is a worthwhile discussion but please keep in mind the following when posting and be cautious about staying within the guidelines of the forum

*Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.*
Allgirls


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road
You know I never understood that particular reasoning for hitting. Believe me my kids have driven me to the point of anger and only total self discipline keeps me from hitting them. However, my son ran into a street and after grabbing him the last thing that crossed my mind was to hit him...I held him and hugged him.
My gut reaction was not..hit this kid he needs to learn.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

I was talking about this discussion with my mom, and she brought up first-time obedience, like if a kid was running into the road, and I said, "Well, duh, if they are too little to understand, you don't let them near the road unsupervised, and if they are old enough to understand, then they understand and won't run into the road." Right? We used to ride bikes on the (country) road all the time, and pulled over on the side when a car came.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

I want to agree that I believe in an age of accountablity. I think it is a sliding scale of understanding. Does my 3 year old understand that it hurts when you hit others, yes, does she understand that it makes the other child feel devalued and crushes their growing self-worth, of course not.
I also want to add that I find it useful to think about Christ's reaction in my same situation. If a child was angry and spit on him, what would Jesus say or do to the young one? I believe he would correct with love and then embrace the child. He would see the action as a cry for help, not as a disrespect.
That is the God I want to spend eternity with, not one that views children as sinful beasts that need beaten into submission.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Aha! Something I am really confused about.... I've read the Pearl's book, and I live in an Amish community where, as far as I know, whippings ARE common.

I've lived near the Amish all my life, in two different areas of PA. My uncle actually fostered/apprenticed a couple of Amish boys in his carpentry business, and when he married, the Amish community "catered" his reception. Additionally, our local homebirth/midwifery coalition has a lot of Amish who participate, and the Amish girls take care of the food and stuff. I have never seen an Amish child whipped, hit, smacked, spanked, or treated with anything other than love and respect. In fact, my experience is pretty much the opposite of what you said--whippings are not common at all. In addition to the obvious, one of the things I hate, hate, hate about the Pearls' book is the cover illustration. The Pearls aren't Amish. The Amish actually love and cherish their children.

I think it's a big mistake to idealize/romanticize the Amish culture. Well, any culture, really. I don't think it's helpful and it promotes stereotypes. I suspect the Amish have the same struggles as the rest of us when it comes to day-to-day life with children, minus the TV shows and video games. And frankly, I'd be more inclined to think the separation from the English world is what makes the difference more than supposed daily whippings.

Quote:

is there something about the way our ancestors disciplined their children that is better than pc discipline (non-spanking- since most people I run into do not, it seems to be the more popular MODERN ideology). Anybody have some deep insight into that?
I also think it's a fallacy to believe that our ancestors went around bopping their children. I think it's written on a mother and father's heart to love their babies, their toddlers, their children. I think that the same guilt a "modern" mother feels when she breaks and swats or yells at her kid was there thousands of years of go. I think parents across time have known that there is a better way to discipline and love their children. Most people don't want to hurt someone they love, and I'm not sure we assume why we would assume that parents were wired differently thousands of years ago.

Quote:

I guess, my nonspanking self wonders... are we really happier when mommy is tense and trying to control the frustration in her voice because she is telling ds to go in timeout for the 3rd time, or when I finally raise my voice (*fail*)- than if I was just some Amish momma who got respect the first time, and never got all frustrated or raised her voice... What sinks in deeper, a skin hurt or a heart hurt?
I think there is a real danger in measuring the effectiveness of something by immediate results. As a Christian, I parent with eternity in mind, not just by an immediate change. I'd stop doing something too if someone physically hurt me for it, but it doesn't mean I would understand or have a change of heart. I'd be acting out of fear. And God does not give us a spirit of fear.

Quote:

I'm haunted by these ideas and have trouble answering myself in a way that really settles the issue. At this point *I* do not spank, and dh does- I just say the book of Proverbs with its so-called rod verses were adressed to men (Solomon's son) and it is not feminine to spank. In my heart... it just doesn't feel right. I have verses to back me up and he has verses to back him up.
Dueling Bible verses never ends well.







Seriously, proof-texting--you pulling out verses to prove your point, him doing the same--probably isn't going to work. I'm a big believer in looking at the whole picture. My husband and I try to parent our children the way God parents us. God doesn't smite us with a heavenly smack when we disobey.

There's a really good book by Clay Clarkson called Heartfelt Discipline that you might find helpful.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Good points, AnnetteMarie. It feels good to have someone pose plausible answers to questions no one has successfully answered for me yet.

I am getting closer to some Amish families (one mother of ten is going to teach me to process my own chickens) so maybe I will have some more opportunities to see how they have achieved what appear to be obedient children (although maybe they are just in awe of "the English" and so are on best behaviour). While I appreciate many aspects of their society I certainly don't wish to be in any sort of community with as many "laws" to follow- especially ones which require you to shun your own family members!


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## MrsSurplus (Dec 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggirayne* 
I was talking about this discussion with my mom, and she brought up first-time obedience,

I recently read something on this that really resonated with me: when was the last time you learned something and did it right the first time? I have quit quite a few things that I tried one time and did miserably at (snowboarding, scrapbooking, etc...) because I was raised to attempt perfection. I am very aware of the fact that I have done a number of things poorly - one time. Why would I expect my child to obey perfectly the first time when there is nothing I did well the first time? (Obviously, I expect more of my teens than my toddlers...and I do believe that there is value in "first time obedience" especially when you encounter a safety issue.)


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Good point, MrsSurplus.
So would you say that the expectation of first time should depend on age and ability and understanding?


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Amish children seem so much happier and well adjusted... now I know there are other factors. But I keep wondering... in the same way that I believe traditional foods (foods our ancestors ate) are BETTER than modern politically correct health foods, and the same way I believe much of the richness of life has been lost in "improved" industrialized ways of living, is there something about the way our ancestors disciplined their children that is better than pc discipline (non-spanking- since most people I run into do not, it seems to be the more popular MODERN ideology). Anybody have some deep insight into that?

I think there are some good points in here, and you don't have to believe spanking is the answer to see some merit in considering how our ancestors disciplined their kids. If you look at other primates, they DO use physical discipline on their children. So do most human societies. What that tells me is, spanking exists for a reason. It fulfills a certain need. Now, since we are modern, gentle people who don't want to spank our children, we have to find a different way of meeting that need for discipline. But we can't just ignore it.

As for the "can kids be willfully disobedient" question, I can vouch with absolute certainty that maggirayne has babysat for a 3.5yo who is a shining example of it.


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## isisreturning (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anywaybecause* 

I treat my children the way I would want to be treated.
I show my children the same respect that adults demand for themselves.
I look at the source of my child's frustration and see if there is a middle ground we can reach.
If it's not okay to do to an adult, it's not okay to do to a child.
As long as their safety is not being compromised, I find that most things are negotiable.


Yay ITA and have been trying to explain this concept to my dh, but with too many words. This captures it perfectly and succinctly. It's the proverbial "Do unto others..." that is so wise yet so hard to implement.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I think there are some good points in here, and you don't have to believe spanking is the answer to see some merit in considering how our ancestors disciplined their kids. If you look at other primates, they DO use physical discipline on their children. So do most human societies. What that tells me is, spanking exists for a reason. It fulfills a certain need. Now, since we are modern, gentle people who don't want to spank our children, we have to find a different way of meeting that need for discipline. But we can't just ignore it.

It's almost like you think we need to find a "replacement" for spanking -- like spanking is the default and everything else is just an attempt to measure up to spanking?

In one of the articles at the Gentle Christian Mothers site, I learned that spanking actually wasn't the norm in early Hebrew society -- except for older boys (like, over 12) who were willfully disobedient. In our culture, even spanking-proponents think 12 is too old for spanking.

Discipline is a trust-relationship. Early on, our babies learn through our responsive parenting that we hear their communications. They learn to communicate and listen from us. That relationship is the default (the base of discipline) -- not spanking. Spanking, timeouts, and all other punitive practices are just meager attempts to get quick results without taking the time and effort to connect with children.

I'm not saying that parents who punish don't care about connection -- but I do believe their practices get in the way of that connection.

Quote:

As for the "can kids be willfully disobedient" question, I can vouch with absolute certainty that maggirayne has babysat for a 3.5yo who is a shining example of it.








Is the 3.5yo trying to break away, and detach himself, from parents/caregivers -- or is he trying to get their attention? In my experience, when children this age intentionally do the opposite of what we want, they're trying to get *more* relationship with us, not less. Except in cases where the adult's rules are so constricting, the child has to break them to have any fun.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
It's almost like you think we need to find a "replacement" for spanking -- like spanking is the default and everything else is just an attempt to measure up to spanking?

That's a very ... strange way of reading what I wrote.

Spanking is one way human societies fulfill their kids' need for boundaries and discipline. The fact that it's so widespread is a sign that *some* kind of discipline is a real need. It doesn't mean that spanking has to be the default choice.

Quote:

Is the 3.5yo trying to break away, and detach himself, from parents/caregivers -- or is he trying to get their attention?
Or is he doing neither, but trying to find out, "what happens when I do X that Mommy just said I'm not allowed to do?"


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

P.S. And when I say "discipline," I mean guidance - not necessarily punishment.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
well, i would certainly argue if someone said hitting was for a child's "own good". i do agree that _discipline_ is for a child's good, _but_ discipline is *not* hurting, punishing, hitting, humiliating, shaming, etc.

Very good point. Again it comes down to semantic, some people would say. Sigh. At least those people who equate discipline with punishment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
the ezzos and the pearls (especially the latter) promote child abuse. they can call it "biblical" & their "god-given right"...but those statements are not true. it is abuse.

ITA! And good point on not Biblical statements.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
in the original post, you were concerned about talking to another christian who challenges how you will handle a child that's willfully defiant. it seemed your friend implied that "no" spanking was unbiblical. i disagree with that obviously, and i feel your friend/s would benefit from reading a copy of the letter i linked.

I think I might email it to her. And say something along the lines of this explains a great deal of what I believe about discipline.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
in your shoes, i certainly would not get into defining what "willful disobedience" actually is, as that is a debate you will not win ....(we see that in many posts here at MDC and how we all disagree sometimes).

True.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
if another christian wants to challenge me about not spanking, i need only reply with scripture because it then puts the debate between them and God. how i parent is not up for discussion, and i do not need to defend it of course.... but i believe conversations like this are real opportunities to shed truth about what scripture actually says (or doesn't say) about how we are called to parent. ykwim?

Very true. I like to think of the points that we do not build doctrine one verse/passage/book, and challenge people to do serious exegesis. But then there's personal bias. Sigh.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
I guess, my nonspanking self wonders... are we really happier when mommy is tense and trying to control the frustration in her voice because she is telling ds to go in timeout for the 3rd time, or when I finally raise my voice (*fail*)- than if I was just some Amish momma who got respect the first time, and never got all frustrated or raised her voice... What sinks in deeper, a skin hurt or a heart hurt?

What are you saying is the skin hurt and the heart hurt? I believe that spanking doesn't hurt only the skin, as would many people here. That spanking does cause emotional harm is a hugr reason not to spank. And I'm not condemning you, I yelled yesterday, and I hate it.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
As for the "can kids be willfully disobedient" question, I can vouch with absolute certainty that maggirayne has babysat for a 3.5yo who is a shining example of it.

















: Yeah, that's the one I yelled at.








And many times, I think for me, it is to get my attention, which is hard with 1 yo brother and my own 1 yo. And sometimes he just refuses to do what asked/told, picks choice, he wants a third thing that is totally out of the question. We both work to minimize frustration, makes choices, but 3 yos, are just 3 yos. Sigh


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Aha! Something I am really confused about.... I've read the Pearl's book, and I live in an Amish community where, as far as I know, whippings ARE common.

Amish children seem so much happier and well adjusted... now I know there are other factors.

Could it be that they stress BEING happy? I know a woman that does not allow her child to be unhappy - he gets spanked for complying "with the wrong attitude".


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anywaybecause* 
ITA. Instead of punishing the 2-year old for dumping the food on purpose, recognize that he/she is learning about cause and effect. Give him/her something it's okay to dump on the floor.

I was thinking about this again and I realized something. A 1.5yo who is dumping food is experimenting with dumping. Great - give him something else to dump.

But an older toddler who is told "don't dump!" and then dumps the food? He's experimenting with something else entirely, and that is "doing the thing Mommy asked me not to do." So the question isn't what to let them dump on the floor, it's how to react to the child doing something just because you don't want them to.

I think some people react to the word "disobedience" because they don't believe kids should "obey." I kind of agree with this, but there's still the issue of contrariness, if that's a better word for it. When you say "let's keep the floor clean now that I've picked up all the toys," and the kid looks at you and then deliberately throws a box of toys on the floor, he needs to learn that that kind of behavior isn't appropriate (even if he's trying to express an emotion). I think it's possible to consider the kid's emotional expression (is he mad at me? jealous that the baby is getting all the attention?) while simultaneously teaching him that he can't dump the toys out even if he is mad at me. (In my house, this would consist of saying cheerfully, "if you can't keep your toys picked up, I'm going to put them up in the cabinet for a while" and doing so.)

Sorry for the derail ...


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Yeah, the idea form Ezzo's "Obey with a happy heart" annoys me for that reason.

Look happy--why? to impress other people?


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## avivaelona (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:

"don't dump!"
It may be true that a toddler that hears this is experimenting with "doing what mommy says not to do" but honestly until they are a little older toddlers don't consistantly understand negatives and what he really is hearing is "someword DUMP" Of course if he experiments and gets a bad reaction from mom, over several times its probably going to stick that "someword" was the same as NO! But it really does take lots of repetitions for them to even get that you are telling them not to. (and just because a toddler understands that "don't touch" means no touching it doesn't mean they can generalize to "don't dump" meaning no dumping)

Of course at some point they do get it! But its hard to know just when exactly they do truly understand at least until you hear them using the word themselves consistantly and correctly.

I suppose its possible that they are whipped but I've never even seen an Amish child threatened with a whipping and I've seen disobedient Amish children. Usually it seems when they are disobedient someone just goes and fetches them and distracts them actually, usually an older sibling or cousin. I have seen an Amish child throwing a tantrum, they were picked up and removed from the situation by a teenage member of the group. (clearly not the mom)

I think in cultures around the world there are some that use physical discipline and others that don't or do only very rarely. There are some cultures where picking the child up even and moving them to a safe place would be considered too much interference. Its hard to know what our prehistoric ancestors did, since they are pre-historic, but I think since there has been culture there has been variation in physical discipline. I think our view that spanking is "normal" comes from the last couple of hundred years or so of history not from a long look back across 40,000 years of human culture.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avivaelona* 
It may be true that a toddler that hears this is experimenting with "doing what mommy says not to do" but honestly until they are a little older toddlers don't consistantly understand negatives and what he really is hearing is "someword DUMP"

Yeah, but I'm talking specifically about a toddler who understands what you're saying. I know different kids hit that point at different ages, but they do get there sooner or later! My older son actually learned "dump" as one of his first words for this reason.







By around 2, he would pick up a box of toys, look at me, pause, and say "Dump? Dump?" and then wait for me to tell him whether it was OK.

I think, too, that if you're a parent who knows your kid's body language and personality well, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between "I really really really want to do this thing, so I'm going to do it even though Mommy said no" and "I don't care that much, but I want to see how she's going to react" or "I'm upset about something and I'm going to demonstrate that by doing somethingI know Mommy doesn't like."


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

What are you saying is the skin hurt and the heart hurt? I believe that spanking doesn't hurt only the skin, as would many people here. That spanking does cause emotional harm is a hugr reason not to spank. And I'm not condemning you, I yelled yesterday, and I hate it.
My parents spanked me. Honestly... I preferred the spanking to a lecture. I hated the "You should" "you shouldn't" "That's wrong" "why did you do that" endless string of words that made me feel... like a BAD person. They never spanked me with excessive force or even with an angry look, so the words stung a lot more than the rod. I read Nonviolent Communication and that is really helping me heal and learn how to present things to my kids so I will not make them feel "guilty", rather, help them feel like there is a better way that gets better results, which is less alienating. I want to inspire them to do right, not guilt them into it.

So, while I agree that spanking often does cause emotional harm (especially with excessive force and anger), that actually hasn't been my personal experience- but I think my parents' spanking and accompanied "rebuke" BOTH alienated me and failed to inspire me to model them. I don't want to alienate my kids. I would say, overall, that my biggest reason for feeling like I should not spank them is because it seems to cause them to withdraw from me. How can this be good if I am the one whose guidance they need?

Quote:

Could it be that they stress BEING happy? I know a woman that does not allow her child to be unhappy - he gets spanked for complying "with the wrong attitude".
I don't think you can spank your child into a good attitude any more than you can "convert" someone on threat of killing them. I will never understand why people think this works. The only way you can have happy children is to be a happy momma.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
That's a very ... strange way of reading what I wrote.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you -- but I'm not so sure that I did.

Quote:

Spanking is one way human societies fulfill their kids' need for boundaries and discipline. The fact that it's so widespread is a sign that *some* kind of discipline is a real need. It doesn't mean that spanking has to be the default choice.
I never thought you were advocating spanking, and still don't think you are -- you just seem to see spanking as a widespread thing. You seem to think spanking fills a need, and needs to be replaced if it's not going to be used.

I'm not claiming to be an anthropologist -- but from what small research I've done (no, I don't have any links in my head at the moment), spanking seems to be the "norm" only in Anglo society -- and it's already being frowned upon in Sweden and the Netherlands where it's been outlawed.

Therefore, spanking seems way less like a widespread norm, and more like an unfortunate interlude in our recent history.

Quote:

Or is he doing neither, but trying to find out, "what happens when I do X that Mommy just said I'm not allowed to do?"
Maybe where I'm getting hung up is that I've always associated the words "willful disobedience" with evil. I don't see it as evil for a child to experiment to see how his parents will react to certain behaviors, any more than I see it as evil for him to do stuff for attention. I realize these behaviors are inconvenient to parents -- but they're not evil.

I realize that when a child understands we don't like something and does it anyway, it's intentional (and, yeah, it can be very inconvenient) -- I just don't see it as the evil no-no that's associated with "willful disobedience."


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

I don't think it's evil, but it's not just inconvenient, either. It's a type of behavior that children have to learn not to do in order to become members of our society. If my husband tells me I have to clean up the kitchen while he plays video games, I might say, "That's not fair and I refuse to do it," but I DON'T sweep all the dirty dishes on the floor to show him how angry I am.

I think some kids (and girls more so than boys) have a strong instinct for social skills, and will easily learn that being contrary for the sake of being contrary will not win them any friends. Other kids don't seem to "get it" automatically, and need to be taught the normal boundaries of mature human interaction (e.g. throwing things on the floor because you're mad is very rude). If I just smile and give him something else to dump on the floor, I'm teaching him that his behavior is acceptable.

Also, I don't think you're right that spanking is only the norm among Anglo society. I know that some kind of physical discipline is traditional in Asia, Africa, and among Muslim societies, as well. Not to mention chimps and gorillas.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 

I don't think you can spank your child into a good attitude any more than you can "convert" someone on threat of killing them. I will never understand why people think this works. The only way you can have happy children is to be a happy momma.


I think you misunderstood me. I meant the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of happiness. And if the child doesn't *appear* to be happy, and doesn't behave cheerfully, there's a spanking.







:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel* 
I think some kids (and girls more so than boys) have a strong instinct for social skills, and will easily learn that being contrary for the sake of being contrary will not win them any friends. Other kids don't seem to "get it" automatically, and need to be taught the normal boundaries of mature human interaction (e.g. throwing things on the floor because you're mad is very rude). If I just smile and give him something else to dump on the floor, I'm teaching him that his behavior is acceptable.

I'm not saying I'd "smile and give her something else to dump" if one of my children swept all our dirty dishes onto the floor in anger (in our case, we don't make our girls do chores, so the anger would be over something else). I think the poster who advocated giving something else to dump, was talking about cases where a child's just feeling an urge to dump stuff for fun -- not out of anger.

If my child did something like that in anger, I certainly wouldn't be smiling and handing her more stuff to destroy. I'd be talking with her, helping her figure out other ways to process those feelings. And asking her to help me with the mess (though I wouldn't force the help).

I realize children vary widely in social interest and social skill. But no one's totally disinterested in their relationships with significant others.

Quote:

Also, I don't think you're right that spanking is only the norm among Anglo society. I know that some kind of physical discipline is traditional in Asia, Africa, and among Muslim societies, as well. Not to mention chimps and gorillas.
That may be -- but the one Muslim I had opportunity to spend time with a while back, was opposed to spanking and also to authoritarian childrearing. He accused some people of treating children like dogs and not humans. I realize, though, that one person isn't enough to generalize from -- but some other friends of mine also noticed gentler parenting practices in the Middle East.

I think I'll try to look into this more.


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## Mamallama08 (Jun 23, 2008)

This is a time-honored theological debate, and if you don't mind I'd like to add my two cents: I was always taught that "God loves the wicked." I have never in my life seen an instance where God has punished anyone. God is Good to everyone in my opinion. Willful disobedience is a natural developmental step (i.e. when a child learns the word, "No"). It helps them to individuate themselves and it's important because it's practice for later in life. You might talk to your priest or pastor for guidance on this issue. Jesus willfully disobeyed many authorities and was crucified by Man, not God. Perhaps a positive approach is better. Make Jesus your child's hero. That's what the WWJD movement is all about. Children learn to do the right thing by mirroring their roll models. Superman and He-man stand in for Jesus for a lot of non-religious boys, and girls have their heroes too. Jesus never used his muscles. He had Spiritual power. He practiced surrender which is the most spiritually powerful practice known. How can we be like him and fear God at the same time? He never feared his father. There is so much more that I could say here. Thank you for this thread because I like to discuss these issues openly. And I'm sorry I didn't really answer you question, but I wish you the best. Children are a miracle in that they are perfectly innocent, yet they ask us to examine ourselves and find out what we believe at the very core of our being.


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## LilacMama (Aug 18, 2008)

Wow. _Great_ discussion. I would ask these people when the last time they felt punished by God was.

I know I do things I regret on a regular basis. I often know what is right and do the opposite (as the apostle Paul lamented was his experience). I have NEVER felt that I was punished by God, especially in such a direct way as spanking. I have felt natural consequences to my actions and I don't think you always do your children any favors by sheltering them from the natural consequences. But I have also felt so much Grace and Love from God. I hear from God "yes, you messed up but you are loved and forgiven already...go and sin no more."

But I would just be really curious to know, from these people's perspective, what they felt that their own adult equivalent to being "spanked by God" was? I suspect, if anything, it was natural consequences to their actions and sorrow in their hearts over their wrong-doing.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamallama08* 
Children are a miracle in that they are perfectly innocent, yet they ask us to examine ourselves and find out what we believe at the very core of our being.

So true!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilacMama* 
I would ask these people when the last time they felt punished by God was.

Actually, I had a friend who believed that in every illness, there is some sin at the root (she probably still believes this). She said "God is a God of order" -- and to her this seemed to mean that there's always a direct cause-and-effect relationship that's discernible to us here on earth -- which we need to discern if we ever want true healing.

We recently suffered miscarriages at around the same time, and she said she was really seeking God about her miscarriage ... we've since lost touch, so I don't know what sin she eventually decided was at the root. I never perceived my miscarriage as a punishment from God, but simply as a hard thing that God would help me through, which He had allowed for reasons that someday I'll understand.

I just don't feel a need to know the "why" of every hard thing that happens. I believe God reveals whatever we need to know at the time -- sure we should seek Him ("those who seek shall find") -- but seeking Him actually leads us deeper and deeper into Him, which in my experience just makes us increasingly aware of how much bigger God and His purposes are, than we can ever grasp.

Anyhow, this friend and I are currently not in contact, because she disagrees with me for not spanking my kids, and feels they're just getting to know God as Lamb and not Lion. She feels that kids need "law first," because that lays the framework for them being able to fully appreciate grace.

I actually think that many parents who believe in punishment for children, also believe in punishment for adults. At a family reunion a while back, I heard two relatives discussing the severe health problems of a mutual friend. One relative capped off the conversation by saying something like, "But every problem he has, he caused by his own choices."

As if it's any more comforting to know we brought something on ourselves!

In contrast, the deeper I get into gentle discipline, the easier it is for me to have grace toward adults, including myself!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And the more we have grace and patience for ourselves, the easier it is to have grace and patience for our children!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I really abhor the term "willful disobedience". It is a quick way to squelch any open mind I have for the other person's point of view during a discussion about discipline









However, I will say with regard to the relationship I have with God, that I am only commanded to obey Him. I am commanded to honor my mother and father but of course God never really defined exactly what honoring means in that context. Does it mean obey their every command, even if they are not acting in a just or age appropriate way? Does it mean that a child should not have a voice, or a dissenting opinion, or the opportunity to question the "rules" of their parents or the right to question the Godliness of the punishments they dole out?

I don't believe so. I believe children are every bit of God's glorious creation -- in fact, even moreso according to scripture. God values children very much for their innocence, trust, and ability to accept God wholly and to love unconditionally. In my opinion, children are most like God in many ways.

I don't know what you friend means by "willful disobedience". I suspect they mean when your child doesn't instantly stop doing something undesirable to you when you command -- or have an opinion that differs from your opinion (they think your white curtains look awesome with red marker polka dots for instance LOL)

Well, first and foremost, I have to account to God for my actions on Earth. I personally believe that when I die, I will be asked by God "How did you most honor my Son on Earth" and boy do I want to have a good answer for that question. I am coming from a Christian perspective though so your mileage may vary.

I believe that the traits God most values are ones of patience, kindness, forgiveness, self-discipline, gentleness, and grace -- so I want to treat my child in accordance to the traits He finds glorifying to Him as laid out in my Holy Book (The Bible). He also lays out a lot of traits that are undesirable to Him and which don't bring honor to His son -- anger, violence, self righteousness, fear, etc... and in my understanding of The Bible -- things like hitting/shaming/punishing don't fit with that description of how I believe I am called to conduct myself.

God says He is the author of peace, not confusion. Punishment is confusing to children who seek and crave unconditional love from their parents. God gave unconditional love to us (imo) and to give our children anything less is to be prompted by our own egos and not driven by the desire to glorify God.

This is not to say that there is no place in parenting for guidance, and of the gentle enforcement of boundaries in a respectful way. I find little ones (my own and others) respond best to distraction, repetition, and redirection. When children become older with more ability to reason, conversation, options, brainstorming, flexibility and non violent communication become useful -- and of course by then they have some years to acclimate to working within a family who works together.

Going back to my first statement, I think it can be useful to change terminology. The term "willful disobedience" automatically creates an adversarial situation in my opinion. I choose to reframe situations so that everyone is on the same side. Then, it becomes more about "how can we work together for the greater good", rather than "how can I stop my child from doing something "bad".

Good luck mama


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
Those situations call for the 'get-off-your-butt' method of parenting. Which I learned here. You get up and physically stop them - either through redirection or gentle restraint if needed - like taking the kid off the chair or the counter and going into a different room.

However, I personally think you really shouldn't engage in these kinds of conversations because all I think they can do for you is make you unsure of yourself. You won't win any arguments or change any minds with research, facts or snappy comebacks. I would just give some kind of vague answer like you will handle each situation as it arises in the best way you know how.

EXCELLENT!


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## MrsSurplus (Dec 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
However, I will say with regard to the relationship I have with God, that I am only commanded to obey Him. I am commanded to honor my mother and father but of course God never really defined exactly what honoring means in that context. Does it mean obey their every command, even if they are not acting in a just or age appropriate way? Does it mean that a child should not have a voice, or a dissenting opinion, or the opportunity to question the "rules" of their parents or the right to question the Godliness of the punishments they dole out?

I want to first say that I agree that the term "willfull disobedience" is not useful to an open conversation. Everyone has not only an opinion on what it means, but a belief that it is a worthy goal, or hooey.

That said, I did want to say that Scripture does tell children to "obey" their parents (Ephesians 6:1, Colossians 3:20 & 1 Timothy 3:4) as well as honoring them (or, maybe obedience is a definition of honor, I don't know). ANYWAY...my point is, the Christian ideal of obedient children isn't unbiblical, although the methods too often are.

I believe that obedience is learned. The idea that a child can and should be beaten into obedience doesn't make sense to me. I don't think I'd learn anything well if I was fearing being actually beaten. However, I do believe in the importance of consequences that teach obedience. After all, Scripture says that Jesus "learned" obedience through the thing suffered. All too big for me to completely understand...but I think that is why this debate rages in the Christian world. Most Christians believe that obedience is a necessary trait - after that the paths frequently diverge.

In my opinion, the greatest reason for parents to expect and teach their children obedience is because they can't get to heaven unless they obey God...and since obedience has to be "learned" before it can be expected, I want my children to learn it as children.

Quote:

I believe children are every bit of God's glorious creation -- in fact, even moreso according to scripture. God values children very much for their innocence, trust, and ability to accept God wholly and to love unconditionally. In my opinion, children are most like God in many ways.
Beautifully said!


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## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

I'm sorry if this has already been posted, but Dr. Sears has a fabulous library of books and I am pretty sure it was in Mothering - there was an article from him that specifically addressed Christian Parenting and why Ezzo and the like are harmful, and presented a wonderful Christian based alternative guide. He is Christian himself, and although I am not, I got a lot out of what he said. I love every book by him that I have read.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
I don't think you can spank your child into a good attitude any more than you can "convert" someone on threat of killing them.

Yes, this irks me to no end, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamallama08* 
This is a time-honored theological debate, and if you don't mind I'd like to add my two cents: I was always taught that "God loves the wicked." I have never in my life seen an instance where God has punished anyone. God is Good to everyone in my opinion. Willful disobedience is a natural developmental step (i.e. when a child learns the word, "No"). It helps them to individuate themselves and it's important because it's practice for later in life. You might talk to your priest or pastor for guidance on this issue. Jesus willfully disobeyed many authorities and was crucified by Man, not God. Perhaps a positive approach is better. Make Jesus your child's hero. . . . He practiced surrender which is the most spiritually powerful practice known. How can we be like him and fear God at the same time? He never feared his father. There is so much more that I could say here. Thank you for this thread because I like to discuss these issues openly. And I'm sorry I didn't really answer you question, but I wish you the best. Children are a miracle in that they are perfectly innocent, yet they ask us to examine ourselves and find out what we believe at the very core of our being.

Good point. I might bring that up, asking if anyone has felt punished(*not* _convicted_ by God). I did try to point out that expecting willful disobedience sets your relationship up for butting heads(adversarial is a better word). When I said to her that I wanted to use Positive Discipline she said that not all discipline could be positive. Well, duh, yes, not all correction is accepted positively, but my actions can certainly be positive instead of negative. I am the adult, for Pete's sake! I am supposed to have more control over my actions/words, especially as a self-controlled, Holy Spirit-guided Christian. Sigh.

_Sometimes I'm frustrated that even having this discussion with Christians. Don't we believe that in grace? Don't we believe God extends grace to us? Don't we believe we are to show that same grace to others? What about showing it to our own children?_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilacMama* 
Wow. _Great_ discussion. I would ask these people when the last time they felt punished by God was.

I know I do things I regret on a regular basis. I often know what is right and do the opposite (as the apostle Paul lamented was his experience). I have NEVER felt that I was punished by God, especially in such a direct way as spanking. I have felt natural consequences to my actions and I don't think you always do your children any favors by sheltering them from the natural consequences. But I have also felt so much Grace and Love from God. I hear from God "yes, you messed up but you are loved and forgiven already...go and sin no more."

But I would just be really curious to know, from these people's perspective, what they felt that their own adult equivalent to being "spanked by God" was? I suspect, if anything, it was natural consequences to their actions and sorrow in their hearts over their wrong-doing.

Interesting, people expect a child to get punished, say for hitting another child, and giving them grace, saying it was wrong, and modeling how to act, etc. would be considered "letting them get away with it".

I still feel kinda like that.







The little guy (3 yo) I babysit has bitten my daughter while under my supervision. Modeling to him, "This is what you do when she's in your space" and trying to stay within arm's reach of them constantly is hard--if not impossible with a third child to take care of. My DH asked what do I do. Hmm, what if my child were the biter, how would I want someone else to treat her? Actually, she has bitten/tries to bite us and has bitten herself hard enough to bruise herself. I'm not entirely certain she understands what owie means. So far she laughs at our reactions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Actually, I had a friend who believed that in every illness, there is some sin at the root (she probably still believes this). She said "God is a God of order" -- and to her this seemed to mean that there's always a direct cause-and-effect relationship that's discernible to us here on earth -- which we need to discern if we ever want true healing.

We recently suffered miscarriages at around the same time, and she said she was really seeking God about her miscarriage ... we've since lost touch, so I don't know what sin she eventually decided was at the root. I never perceived my miscarriage as a punishment from God, but simply as a hard thing that God would help me through, which He had allowed for reasons that someday I'll understand.

I just don't feel a need to know the "why" of every hard thing that happens. I believe God reveals whatever we need to know at the time -- sure we should seek Him ("those who seek shall find") -- but seeking Him actually leads us deeper and deeper into Him, which in my experience just makes us increasingly aware of how much bigger God and His purposes are, than we can ever grasp.

Anyhow, this friend and I are currently not in contact, because she disagrees with me for not spanking my kids, and feels they're just getting to know God as Lamb and not Lion. She feels that kids need "law first," because that lays the framework for them being able to fully appreciate grace.

I actually think that many parents who believe in punishment for children, also believe in punishment for adults. At a family reunion a while back, I heard two relatives discussing the severe health problems of a mutual friend. One relative capped off the conversation by saying something like, "But every problem he has, he caused by his own choices."

As if it's any more comforting to know we brought something on ourselves!

*In contrast, the deeper I get into gentle discipline, the easier it is for me to have grace toward adults, including myself!*









Ouch, saying you miscarried because of some sin you had?! That's as bad(and non-Biblical) as thinking a woman is barren because of some sin. It makes me mad how barrenness was blamed on women and never on men in the Bible, of course, there were instances where there were other (fertile) wives, but still. . . argh.
Hmm, does Law=Punishment?
I believe that sin can/does cause sickness sometimes. I've heard/read of e.g. bitter, angry people having cancers, but then being healed when they forgave a certain person. OTOH, my DH's aunt died of a brain tumour, and she was one of the kindest, gentlest, most loving women I've ever met.

I believe because there is sin (in a general sense) that there is sickness and death. We are not healed of being sinful until we are Heaven and perfected.

Hmm, as for her argument about Law first, those of us who believe in NT Christianity have come in under grace. We did not experience the Law. I gotta get my Bible and look at Romans.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I really abhor the term "willful disobedience". *It is a quick way to squelch any open mind I have* for the other person's point of view during a discussion about discipline









*However, I will say with regard to the relationship I have with God, that I am only commanded to obey Him. I am commanded to honor my mother and father but of course God never really defined exactly what honoring means in that context. Does it mean obey their every command, even if they are not acting in a just or age appropriate way? Does it mean that a child should not have a voice, or a dissenting opinion, or the opportunity to question the "rules" of their parents or the right to question the Godliness of the punishments they dole out?*

I don't believe so. I believe children are every bit of God's glorious creation -- in fact, even moreso according to scripture. God values children very much for their innocence, trust, and ability to accept God wholly and to love unconditionally. In my opinion, children are most like God in many ways.

I don't know what you friend means by "willful disobedience". I suspect they mean when your child doesn't instantly stop doing something undesirable to *you when you command* -- or have an opinion that differs from your opinion (they think your white curtains look awesome with red marker polka dots for instance LOL)

Well, first and foremost, I have to account to God for my actions on Earth. I personally believe that when I die, I will be asked by God "*How did you most honor my Son on Earth" and boy do I want to have a good answer for that question.* I am coming from a Christian perspective though so your mileage may vary.

I believe that the traits God most values are ones of patience, kindness, forgiveness, self-discipline, gentleness, and grace -- so I want to treat my child in accordance to the traits He finds glorifying to Him as laid out in my Holy Book (The Bible). He also lays out a lot of traits that are undesirable to Him and which don't bring honor to His son -- anger, violence, self righteousness, fear, etc... and in my understanding of The Bible -- things like hitting/shaming/punishing don't fit with that description of how I believe I am called to conduct myself.

God says He is the author of peace, not confusion. *Punishment is confusing to children who seek and crave unconditional love from their parents.* God gave unconditional love to us (imo) and to give our children anything less is to be prompted by our own egos and not driven by the desire to glorify God.

Going back to my first statement, I think it can be useful to change terminology. *The term "willful disobedience" automatically creates an adversarial situation* in my opinion. I choose to reframe situations so that everyone is on the same side. Then, it becomes more about "how can we work together for the greater good", rather than "how can I stop my child from doing something "bad".

I really like the statements bolded above and ITA!!! You said it all much better than I could have.


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