# I have cut out my 2.5 y/o's nap due to nighttime sleep issues. I feel guilty. Anyone else not letting their toddler nap anymore?



## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

My DD would happily nap for 2+ hours every day at about 2-4pm. It's always been her schedule since she switched to one nap a day at 15 months. However just in the last month (She's 2 years and 8 months old now) her nighttime bedtime was getting later and later and later. Some nights it would be midnight and that was after trying since 10pm. It got so out of control I stopped letting her nap in the day. She gets really, really tired around her normal nap time but I keep her up. Now she has a normal toddler bedtime (8-9pm) but I do feel guilty because I know kids need their naps for sensory processing during the day. She does get really grouchy and exhausted around dinner but we let her watch TV (I know, this is a sub optimal situation but I'm doing the best I can) while we clean up from dinner until it's time to go up to bed.

I tried just doing a "quiet time" without napping at her normal nap time but she would always want to nurse and then she'd fall asleep anyway. I tried waking her up after 60 minutes of nap (she still wouldn't go to sleep until 11 that night) and then waking her up after 30 minutes (same thing) so really it is down to not letting her sleep at all during the day if we want any reasonable bedtime. Which we need for our own sanity! My husband and I were exhausted when she was staying up so late.

Anyone else BTDT or think it's horrible to not let a toddler nap? I am really curious what others think.


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## mrscookie (Jan 11, 2009)

i cut out my son's naps somewhat after he turned two also. if he would nap, he would stay up until 11.30 or midnight, sometimes later. now we have a much better schedule. he goes to sleep between 8 and 9 (we try for 8, with success, often, but sometimes it's later), and getting up between 7 and 8 at the latest. i'm pregnant now and i can't imagine staying up that late with him anymore. i would be exhausted. i'm so glad we made the switch and i don't feel guilty about it at all. different kids need different amounts of sleep it seems.


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## behaviourmama (Sep 4, 2010)

I too, feel guilty about my toddler not napping anymore! But I feel guilty about a lot of things.. lol..

She needed A LOT of attention to fall asleep, and once DD2 was born, I couldn't afford the 1-2 hours it would take to get her down, and we were fighting. So I started to give her the option to nap or not, she chose not, and since then we have been okay. Doesn't sound terrible, except that I feel like she has been more sleep deprived than not since day 1, and these days she either stays up too late, wakes up for long stretches in the middle of the night, or has several short wakes.. or she sleeps through, but one bad night leads to seriously weeks of suffering. And it seems like one bad night leads to worse and worse nights, and therefore worse and worse days.. sleep is a hard one! I can clearly see she would do better with a lot of rigid routine, but now it's been about 3 months of no naps, and I still am not sure I could get her back on track. But, we survive.

I think cutting out naps to maintain family balance is not a bad thing! Families start to fall apart when parents have no time to themselves, or to have an adult conversation. And other than a little grouchy, she isn't suffering.. I would try to forgive yourself and look for the next thing to feel guilty about


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## cloudbutterfly (Oct 22, 2008)

My DS just turned two. He's never needed as much sleep as other babies, and he went down to one nap a day before he was a year old, I think. It was getting to be impossible to get him to nap without driving him somewhere in the car. Two or three months ago, I finally gave up on trying to get him to nap, and shortly thereafter I realized I needed to do everything possible to keep him from napping, even in the car. For the first time ever, he has a more or less consistent, "normal" bedtime, and it doesn't take hours to get him to sleep. Most days, he wouldn't nap anyway if we're at home. I just have to be careful between 4 and 6 pm, when he's likely to conk out if he slows down enough. Today he fell asleep for five minutes at five o'clock before I managed to wake him up, and even that made it take an hour for him to fall asleep.

From what I've heard, this is just a hard transition time no matter what you decide to do. He usually is his best behaved at the end of the day, so that helps a lot in our case. I've noticed that getting him to eat more helps. Unfortunately, he's not much of an eater still, so I don't have a huge amount of control over that.

Anyway, I often wish he could still have that nap, but I feel that the improved nighttime sleep, the easier (and less stressful for everyone) bedtime, the getting up in time to get to our morning activities, and the time each evening for my husband and I to hang out and get things done justifies preventing DS's naps. I will sometimes let him have a nap if I feel like he really needs it, and just prepare myself for one or two hours in the dark trying to get him to fall asleep. But otherwise, I feel like it's improved things for him quite a lot.


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

DS stopped napping of his own accord around 2.5. Now if he sleeps at all during the day, even just a half hour, he is up until at least midnight. We are all much happier and it is kind of freeing not to have to be home at a certain time during the day for naps! Don't feel guilty about this! There are plenty other things as mothers we all get to feel guilty about. Let this one go!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

IDK, it sounds like she still needs the nap. Could you keep the nap but cut it short (no more than an hour)? Can you adjust her bedtime or wakeup time by just an hour or so? What about getting her to nap a little earlier in the day? Everything I've read says not to give up naps. Sleepless in America has a good chapter on exactly your issue.

That being said, I can't for the life of me get my DS to nap, no tricks or tips make any difference, he just won't nap most days... but I still try to give him the opportunity to do so, and occasionally, if he's tired enough, he will nap. I wish I had your problem, TBH!! I think what matters in the end is how your kid functions. If she's doing well (calm, content, sleeping well at night), then who cares whether she "should" still be napping. But if she's tired & miserable all day, then I would play with her schedule until she is more like herself. Maybe that doesn't mean going back to naps though -- maybe she just needs a slightly earlier bedtime or something.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

*In my opinion* if your child is grouchy and exhausted they might need to keep the daily nap. But the nap may not be the problem at all.

One thing I learned about my daughter staying up late is that once you miss her window of sleepiness (around 8pm) she will stay up until 10 or later. Something happens to her if we don't get her down in time. Around 7:30 she will start yawning (even if she woke up from her 2+ hour nap 3 hours ago) but if we keep her going without starting her bedtime routine she gets kicked into a strange hyper mode that is REALLY hard to unwind. I think certain stress hormones are released that keep her awake when she really should be sleeping. On occasion they are helpful ... like if we are late coming home and can afford to sleep in the next day.

Just something to think about. I'm a strong believer in naps. Sleep deprivation can also seriously inhibit health and psychological well being. It is one thing if your child doesn't need to sleep but if you see they are tired and you stop them from sleeping (clapping hands, talking loud, etc) *in my opinion* it is a form of torture. We all have very basic needs and sleep is one of them.

Also, OP, please know that guilt is a useless emotion. You are doing the best you can and we all need to figure out your kid. Please don't beat yourself up over it.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

We've had similar struggles with our DD (who is 3). She's happier when she naps, but the late bedtime is a real challenge for us. And since we have to wake her up every morning to get her to school (and ourselves to work), it gets into a vicious cycle. She's up late, so she doesn't want to wake up in the morning. Then she's tired, so she needs the nap. But then she's awake and can't get to sleep until late. UG.

And I just have to say, I feel like a complete idiot that we cannot just get her to go to bed earlier, but we cannot. I don't even know how to explain it. We can start earlier with the bedtime routine, but she's not going to fall asleep until she's going to fall asleep. Sleep issues have truly humbled me as a parent; I have had to let got of the idea that I can control or even influence her sleep behavior. I can only hang on for the ride and try to get my own needs met. I think I have a DD who left to her own natural patterns would sleep 10 or 10:30pm-8am and 12:30-2:00pm every day. But that schedule is just not something we can work around. DP & I need time to ourselves before 10 pm, and we have to be out the door in the morning before 8:00 am. That's just the way it is.

So, we struggle. She naps at school, and that's a mixed blessing. On weekends, we try to eliminate or limit her nap time to 30-40 minutes. We've managed to get her to sleep between 9:00-9:15 most nights. We "tag team" on the bedtime routine a lot so that while one of us is helping her get to sleep, the other can get stuff done (or relax--ha!). We're working towards helping her be more independent in getting herself to sleep. Basically, if she's in her bed and she's quiet by 8:30 pm, we consider that good. Often we have to be in the room with her to get her to settle down (otherwise she'll cry, yell, thrash around, etc). But we're working on encouraging her to have time by herself to settle herself down. It seems to be working, ever so slowly.

Good luck, mama. You're not alone! In some families, sleep is just a really tough parenting issue. Do what you need to do to stay sane, and don't worry about it too much. Your daughter will grow up and everything will change & someday this just won't be a big deal anymore.


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

Hi and thanks for your all very different posts about what I should do! I've found recently that even if I let her have a tiny nap (like 10-30 minutes) it still will take her a full 1-2 hours of bedtime battle in the dark usually leading to her finally falling asleep by midnight , so basically if she naps at all it should be a whole 2 hours since it seems 5 minutes is the same as 2 hours in nap world for her. With me keeping her up (I don't do anything mean to keep her from napping like clapping hands or anything, I just don't give her an opportunity to nap, since she only falls asleep by nursing in a dark room) she falls asleep within 10 minutes of trying to get her to bed, Last night it was 9:30, the night before 9pm. She gets up at about 8am now (with lots of nightwakings to nurse but that is a whole other sleep issue we've been dealing with for a long long time) instead of 10am (or later) as it was before I cut the nap.

Every once in awhile I will still let her nap if I think she really needs it, but it starts the whole late night sleep/late morning wake cycle all over again.

The only thing I am not happy with is the grouchy time around dinner, but I hope eventually she will grow out of it? What is the normal range for kids to stop taking/needing naps anyway? I know a 4 year old that still naps. Is that normal?


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

Can I also ask how much sleep a 2 year and 8 month old is supposed to be getting? Maybe that can help me try to figure out some sort of balance where I stop feeling guilty.


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

Sorry for all these little posts, I can't seem to squish them together. She is getting about 10-11 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. Is that OK? All I can find online is from stupid "Babycenter" which says yes, they should still be napping 1-3 hours a day AND still get 10.5-12.5 hours at night. (I'm calling her 3 at this point from the table.) So if that is true she is way way under.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_how-much-sleep-does-your-child-need_1390720.bc


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## voca (Jul 28, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> *In my opinion* if your child is grouchy and exhausted they might need to keep the daily nap. But the nap may not be the problem at all.
> 
> ...


This is my experience too. When my little girl started to be difficult to put to bed at her usual 9 pm I suggested to her father that he skip the afternoon nap. She was miserable. Once she fell asleep with her face in the dinner plate. The solution was to let her nap and to put her to bed an hour earlier, no matter how long the nap was.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nukuspot*
> 
> She gets up at about 8am now (with lots of nightwakings to nurse but that is a whole other sleep issue we've been dealing with for a long long time) instead of 10am (or later) as it was before I cut the nap.


This part makes me think she may be overtired. If she is waking up earlier and getting less sleep overall, she is probably stuck in an overtired rut. It sounds counter-intuitive, but the more tired they are, the harder it is for them to sleep.

I think 10-11 hours of sleep is on the very low end of "enough" and if she's getting cranky and stuff, I'd say she probably needs more sleep. If you are going to skip naps, maybe she is ready for bed by dinner time? I know that sounds really early but if you wait it out & try to keep her up an extra hour or two, you'll end up missing her window & not getting her to sleep until later in the evening. According to the book I mentioned earlier (Sleepless in America), kids should be getting this much sleep:

Toddler 13-36 months: 13 hours (including nap)
Preschooler 37-60 months: 12 hours (including nap)

Supposedly kids 'should' nap until school age (5 or so). If they aren't taking a nap, they should still be getting that 12-13 hours at night at least. Obviously those are just averages, so I'd go based on how she feels & acts. If she is having those meltdowns in the evening, she's almost definitely not getting enough sleep. I would consider trying different schedules, like maybe wake her up earlier so she can take an earlier nap & then have an earlier bedtime... so maybe wake her at 7, shoot for an 11am nap, and then she can get to bed by 8pm. Or, if you really don't want to do naps anymore, try waking at 8 but then getting her to bed by 7pm or even earlier.


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## KellyandBean (Nov 2, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I would consider trying different schedules, like maybe wake her up earlier so she can take an earlier nap & then have an earlier bedtime... so maybe wake her at 7, shoot for an 11am nap, and then she can get to bed by 8pm. Or, if you really don't want to do naps anymore, try waking at 8 but then getting her to bed by 7pm or even earlier.


I TOTALLY agree with this. I don't know that the OP said what time her daughter was waking up but it seems like 2pm is a REALLY late nap. I'd try to get her up at 7am, nap from 12ish-1 and then put her to bed at 8:00. On the days when my daughter (21 months) refuses to nap she is up at 7am and i put her down at 6pm (crazy i know but it works!!) so she can still get 13 hours of sleep that night to make up for her lack of a nap.

I also agree with what others have said about her needing more sleep. She most likely needs about 12 hours of total sleep in a 24 hour period.


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

After being great all day and telling me over and over again "I'm not sleepy I don't need a nap" she crashed at 5:30pm and freaked just as my husband walked through the door. I can't have her get a 5:30 pm or even 6pm bedtime, that would not work for our family, she would barely ever see her father.

Since she nightnurses off and on all night (1-4 times a night for 15-30 mins, always has done her whole life) and I can't sleep while she is nursing, I really can't honestly wake myself up at 7am. I really need that extra 1 hour of morning sleep. I've tried to deal with the nightnursing for months, years, it feels like. She's tried sleeping in her own room, tried the sidecar crib, tried Daddy putting her to bed, tried the "nipples are sleeping" thing and it all ends the same....She's snuggled under my arm all night holding my breast or screaming for me. That's a whole other issue but it does tie into this issue since I really need my sleep too.

I guess I will try to give her a nap again starting tomorrow, and just deal with the 11-12pm bedtime that follows. A 2 pm nap is standard for all her friends her age, she has a very active "social life" and all the playgroups end at 1pm for the kids to go home and nap at 2. She also has a gymnastics class that ends at 1pm as well, so I can't really push the nap much earlier most days (and I am sure she wouldn't be receptive either since she needs about 6 hours of awake time before I can get her to sleep), though I can try for a 1pm I guess and leave her activities early.

Thanks, it's not what I want to hear but I guess I am forced to keep napping her for awhile more and deal with my "mini college kid bedtime."


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

I'm going to order Sleepless in America now by the way too. Thanks!


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

If it makes you feel any better, OP, my DD stopped napping a little after or before she turned two, and it was the right thing for her. She used to stay up so late and wake up so much during the night, no matter how early we put her to bed. She had dark circles under her eyes all the time. Bedtime could take two hours. We stopped napping her and she started sleeping 7:30 or 8:30 to 7:30 or 8:30. Bedtime takes ten minutes. No more dark circles. If we have a day where she takes a nap (and it's quite rare, and I always let her - because I really like getting a lunch break!), immediately her schedule is thrown off, she sleeps way less total, and she starts having the dark circles again. It is totally counter to anything I know anyone else doing, but as far as I can tell it is absolutely the right thing for DD. And we did have a few days of transition where she was falling asleep super early and not even being able to see her dad. That straightened out quickly though, without me really interfering. And she is super mellow and not overwhelmed as far as I can tell. But we do not have very busy days and stay home most of the time.

Bummer about the night nursing though. It comes and goes with my DD and I have never been able to sleep during it either, so I'm very glad it is on the wane.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Idk - I hear/read all. the. time. that kids NEED the nap. My Mom is constantly telling me ds is overtired & needs his nap back but for the life of me I cannot figure out how to make it happen (believe me I did NOT want him to stop napping).

Op - I think some kids do cut out that nap & although they could still use a nap for whatever reason it really affects their nighttime sleep. Ds had a good night's sleep last night (12 hours), ate well, fell asleep in the car at around noon for about 30 minutes, did gymnastics, had an active afternoon/evening, bedtime at our regular time & it took him over an hour to fall asleep. If he doesn't nap in the day he is asleep within 5-10 minutes after our bedtime routine. 30 minutes is a short nap, noon is an early timing but it STILL made bedtime harder. I'm glad that's not the case for some kids but for some of them it just isn't (& the whole putting them to bed earlier thing just resulted in frustration around here for everyone).

I'm hopeful dd will turn out to be a child who naps....


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I hear ya... it's such a careful balance of sleep needs vs. social needs vs. YOUR needs vs. family time, etc. I still haven't quite worked it all out either... my DS has never gone to bed before midnight, and as late as it is, it at least works well with my WAH schedule -- but DH & I _never_ get any time to ourselves, and if he did still nap I don't know how it would work with his social activities (which are the only thing that keeps him -- and me! -- halfway sane...) but I wish I could get him to nap because I'd love a midday break, and I wish *I* could get to sleep before 2am!! I envy the moms who are somehow able to get their kids onto a perfect, consistent schedule which guarantees them 12+ hours of sleep AND gives both parents time to themselves AND doesn't require waking up at 5am or something, while still having an active social calendar & time for crafting and all sorts of other cool things. I don't know how they do it, makes me feel like an utter failure.

I hope the Sleepless in America book is helpful & that you're able to work something out.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I hear ya... it's such a careful balance of sleep needs vs. social needs vs. YOUR needs vs. family time, etc. I still haven't quite worked it all out either... my DS has never gone to bed before midnight, and as late as it is, it at least works well with my WAH schedule -- but DH & I _never_ get any time to ourselves, and if he did still nap I don't know how it would work with his social activities (which are the only thing that keeps him -- and me! -- halfway sane...) but I wish I could get him to nap because I'd love a midday break, and I wish *I* could get to sleep before 2am!! *I envy the moms who are somehow able to get their kids onto a perfect, consistent schedule which guarantees them 12+ hours of sleep AND gives both parents time to themselves AND doesn't require waking up at 5am or something, while still having an active social calendar & time for crafting and all sorts of other cool things.* *I don't know how they do it, makes me feel like an utter failure.*
> I hope the Sleepless in America book is helpful & that you're able to work something out.


I totally hear you on this!

OP, I wish you good luck figuring all of this out.


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I envy the moms who are somehow able to get their kids onto a perfect, consistent schedule which guarantees them 12+ hours of sleep AND gives both parents time to themselves AND doesn't require waking up at 5am or something, while still having an active social calendar & time for crafting and all sorts of other cool things. I don't know how they do it, makes me feel like an utter failure.


Where are these mythical parents, lol... Youknow, sometimes I do this thing where I think every one else really has it together unless they are crying in a heap in a corner. And by extension I must be the biggest heap because I'm the only one in a heap. I think really, though, everyone is a heap sometimes but it doesn' t always show. Not because people are hiding but because no one can get a true picture unless they are there for each moment.But anyhow, I hope you don't be to hard on yourself. So much depends on things that are beyond our control.


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

I have not read through this entire thread but wanted to share.

My son is 25 months. A few weeks ago he'd gotten into the routine of napping late, and then staying up until midnight.

I began to leave our shades up at night, so he would wake with the daylight. It worked! He wakes earlier and has returned to napping earlier in the day, which means bedtime is with us again (we all get in the family bed at about 9:30pm).


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

I don't have much time for a long post..but I just wanted to say that when my kids were younger I always considered nap time and bedtime sacred. Meaning I did put off social outings if they were at nap time. Really, it won't last that long. Eventually she'll become more flexible with naps, or they'll be shorter, etc.Also, if you do let her sleep at 5:30 on days when she doesn't nap, that also wont' last forever. Yes, for a while, there might be limited family time during the week, but overall your daughter would get more rest, and slowly bedtime can be pushed back. When my middle child stopped napping, it was hell lol. Sooo many days I would put him to bed at 6pm. Maybe think of it as time alone with your husband?  What time does your husband wake up in the morning? Could he get up with her at 7? I have a 3 yo..almost 4..and he naps for two hours at daycare every day, is sleeping by 8:30, and is up around 7/7:30 or so. Routine is so so important at this age. I've had good sleepers and one terrible sleeper (my middle child), but I agree with previous posters that say if you let them stay up too late, they get overtired and it's harder to put them to bed.


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## CassnBeth (Jul 30, 2007)

We haven't eliminated the nap entirely but we have certainly limited it; no sleep past 3:30 no matter what. Right now, DD wakes up around 7:30 (I wake her if she is late), goes down for her nap between 1:30 and 2:00, wakes up from her nap at 3:30 (I have to wake her at least ninety percent of the time) and does not fall asleep until at least 9:00 on a good day even though we start bedtime at 8:15. On the days when she doesn't nap, she falls asleep easily at 7:00 and sleeps until 7:30 the next morning. I know that our current schedule is pretty weird, and that I am a creepy lunatic for waking the poor kid all the time, but she just can't make it without her nap. She gets completely wired and crazed from all the stress hormones if she is awake for twelve hours.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

I know several toddlers who stopped napping at that time and they all had 6:00 o'clock bedtimes. I think it is fine to restrict or even remove the nap but that it is very, very late bedtime with no nap.

Another way to approach it is to limit her nap to one hour.


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## Altair (May 1, 2005)

My son stopped napping at 2.5 but he sleeps 13 hours at least a night. His bedtime is 6:30-7:00 and he wakes up after 8AM. Naps were making him miserable. Crying 2 hours to fall asleep (with me laying there) for nap and bedtime. When we cut it out we had to make bedtime earlier, but after a few days he adjusted. And 4 less hours of crying a day!


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I'm just going to throw these things out there.

Sleep for a rapidly growing and developing brain OR nighttime, non nutritional nursing.

Sleep for a rapidly growing and developing brain OR staying up to see dad.

Just a reminder that this IS a phase that she's going to grow out of. She is going to grow older and need less sleep. She will be able to take gymnastics and have play dates, later. But she will never be this age again, her brain is at this moment going through a phase it will never go through again. She needs long stretches of uninterrupted time where her brain can dip into vitally important deep sleep. Her brain does special stuff when it's asleep.

I recommend you try for just a week putting her to bed much earlier in the evening, even if it means not seeing Dad much, for a week. See what happens. It'll mean you have to get up earlier. Which mean you should go to bed earlier. Which means you will have less waking time with your husband. If nothing good comes of it, go back to whatever feels right.

Consider weaning her from nighttime nursing. It might be what she needs to help her get enough sleep. And I don't have good solutions for the difficult transition time before she settles into a breast-free night. Yes, it means less sleep for a while, while you help her figure out how to get to sleep without you. I never did manage this transition smoothly with either of my kids. But they both eventually were sleeping with out me.

I totally understand if this is completely unappealing.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

mmm...

The Montessorian in me believes that children should be allowed to nap during the day if they choose. Its all about learning how to get themselves to sleep at night... but then this has us doing more radical things like a montessori floor bed, and a completely baby proof room with a gate at the door (which my 2 yo can now open... but anyway)... He goes to his room and can play, read, etc. until he wants to sleep. Sometimes that is at 8, sometimes 10... sometimes 11.

But it is important that a child be allowed to develop the self-knowledge of when they are tired and when they need to sleep--and allowing themselves to go to sleep.

I hear of adults with insomnia, etc. and it makes me wonder if they were allowed to control their sleep as children, or if it was managed for them, and if there is a cause and effect there...

but as I said, I have probably weird, radical thoughts on this subject...


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

carmel - interesting. Since having ds I have often pondered my own sleep issues. I have a lot of anxiety around sleep & spent many years with some pretty bad insomnia. I am fairly convinced it is rooted in cio & being put to bed much too early for most of my childhood/teen years & then compounded by more years of bad sleep as a young adult trying sleep "when you're supposed to" instead of when worked best for me.

Sorry to go off topic some.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *carmel23*
> 
> mmm...
> 
> ...


I have been thinking about this too actually. I really, really like the idea of allowing children to self-regulate and we do this with food & other aspects of daily life, but with sleep, it's a whole 'nother ball game. The problem in our home (and I suspect many others!!) is that there is no way DS would go into a room & play/read/etc. in the first place. He needs constant physical contact & interaction with me (yes, even at almost 3yo) and won't even go into the bathroom by himself for a moment, never mind spend 1, 2, 3+ hours in a bedroom alone. He has also never ever _chosen_ to go to sleep, he fights it no matter how tired he is or how late it is. So unless I want to stay up past 3am every single night, I don't see how this would work. If I go to sleep before him, he gets absolutely frantic and obviously I don't sleep. I guess I am curious how you get your DS to go in the room & entertain himself? Or maybe it's just a personality difference?? (Sorry OP, don't mean to derail your thread!!)


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> I have been thinking about this too actually. I really, really like the idea of allowing children to self-regulate and we do this with food & other aspects of daily life, but with sleep, it's a whole 'nother ball game. The problem in our home (and I suspect many others!!) is that there is no way DS would go into a room & play/read/etc. in the first place. He needs constant physical contact & interaction with me (yes, even at almost 3yo) and won't even go into the bathroom by himself for a moment, never mind spend 1, 2, 3+ hours in a bedroom alone. He has also never ever _chosen_ to go to sleep, he fights it no matter how tired he is or how late it is. So unless I want to stay up past 3am every single night, I don't see how this would work. If I go to sleep before him, he gets absolutely frantic and obviously I don't sleep. I guess I am curious how you get your DS to go in the room & entertain himself? Or maybe it's just a personality difference?? (Sorry OP, don't mean to derail your thread!!)


Yes, I am curious too. My DD's is ] younger than the age we are speaking about, but I cannot imagine her being ok with this type of arrangement. She needs constant contact, and due to her personality, I don't see this changing drastically in the 1-2 years to come.


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CassnBeth*
> 
> We haven't eliminated the nap entirely but we have certainly limited it; no sleep past 3:30 no matter what. Right now, DD wakes up around 7:30 (I wake her if she is late), goes down for her nap between 1:30 and 2:00, wakes up from her nap at 3:30 (I have to wake her at least ninety percent of the time) and does not fall asleep until at least 9:00 on a good day even though we start bedtime at 8:15. On the days when she doesn't nap, she falls asleep easily at 7:00 and sleeps until 7:30 the next morning. I know that our current schedule is pretty weird, and that I am a creepy lunatic for waking the poor kid all the time, but she just can't make it without her nap. She gets completely wired and crazed from all the stress hormones if she is awake for twelve hours.


This is pretty much EXACTLY what I am now trying. Wish me luck! Some days she just will not nap that early no matter what so I give her a choice....But today she napped from 1:30 to 3:30 9I woke her up at 3:30 on the dot) And it is now 9:30pm and shes running around building pillow forts with her imaginary friends. I have no idea what bedtime is going to be but I suspect close to 11. I honestly think with this child there are 2 choices. No nap and a 8-9pm bedtime (I tried 7:30 and she basically laughed at me and ran away) or nap with me waking her and an 11 (or later bedtime). I am taking all everyone says to heart and laughing with the BTDT stories and being concerned with those who voice concern. I'm really trying but this is HARD!


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnaBees Mama*
> 
> Yes, I am curious too. My DD's is ] younger than the age we are speaking about, but I cannot imagine her being ok with this type of arrangement. She needs constant contact, and due to her personality, I don't see this changing drastically in the 1-2 years to come.


Yes, my DD too. She will happily go into her room to play, but there is no way in heck she would put herself to bed. She likes to play a game called 'sleep" where she pretends she's asleep then flips out of bed and giggles in fits. That's as close as we get to her sleeping without me!


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## nukuspot (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cyclamen*
> 
> Where are these mythical parents, lol... Youknow, sometimes I do this thing where I think every one else really has it together unless they are crying in a heap in a corner. And by extension I must be the biggest heap because I'm the only one in a heap. I think really, though, everyone is a heap sometimes but it doesn' t always show. Not because people are hiding but because no one can get a true picture unless they are there for each moment.But anyhow, I hope you don't be to hard on yourself. So much depends on things that are beyond our control.


I love you! I'm laughing so hard now. I'm totally in the heap too. I get what you are saying, some mom friends I have seem so "together" but is it an act or real? Do they fall into a heap when they get home? Hard to know....I always am the first to tell everyone what my struggles are and sometimes I feel like I am the only one struggling. Love to hear I'm not alone.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> I'm really trying but this is HARD!


Yes it is! Regardless of what I posted above, like someone else mentioned, ultimately I think most people just ride it out. Parents do their best to help their kids sleep, try various 'methods', and that's all there is to it.


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

Napping is also different from culture to culture, but it does appear that humans were designed to sleep in at least two chunks of time per each 24 hour period. However, some cultures discourage daytime sleeping while others encourage it. Interesting reading: http://www.parentingscience.com/sleep-requirements.htm


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I think it starts from birth and takes a different perspective on sleep a together... instead of thinking that we are "putting baby to sleep" Montessorians recognize that baby is responsible for putting himself to sleep.

Preparing the environment so this can happen is key.

With a toddler, I would just begin by completely baby proofing the room-- and having a bed that toddler can get in and out of safely and easily (floor bed) is really best to start).

Have a routine, and when it is time to go to bed, begin by sitting in the room with the toddler. Bring a book for you to read, so you can be present, but not really focused on the child. After your bedtime routine, brush teeth, story, sing a song, etc. just sit there and read you book. You can start in the bed of the child if you like to snuggle-- low light is best, it doesn't have to be completely dark.

Allow your child to get in and out of the bed as s/he pleases, but having a baby gate or closing the door so that toddler knows that we are staying in the room.

After a few nights of being in the bed, move to bedside the bed. The after a few more nights, beside the door. Then eventually just outside the door. Soon (and this could be 6 months--depending on the child) you will kiss you child good night and he will feel secure in his environment--even if you are not there.

Sleeping won't be dependent on you, but rather on the prepared environment where the child feels perfectly safe and capable.

Images of Montessori rooms in homes are a great place to start: link.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Well it must be a personality thing then, because that's virtually exactly what I've done with DS most of his life... Plus he's always had a floor bed -- both a big family floor bed and a crib mattress on the floor -- not because of Montessori, I don't know much about that, but that's just what we've always had. Three years later and we are still not remotely close to kissing him goodnight & walking out the door.


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

My ds is 2y 2.5m and I stopped trying to get him to take a nap. He might nap once a week or so if he's very tired and especially if we're in the car at that time. I do not let him sleep more than 2 hours or past 3:30 or 4pm ever -- that's been my strategy for months, because he will not go to bed at night if he takes a long/late nap. He generally doesn't nap. Bedtime for 4.5yo dd and ds is 7:15-7:45 depending on how tired they are. He sometimes goes to sleep in 5 or 10 minutes, but it can easily take an hour too. I gave up on naps because I was so tired of trying to help him get to sleep for 1 hour or more TWICE a day -- it was making both of us miserable. I do wonder if he's getting enough sleep now because he's been getting up early the past few weeks.

I took him to a sleep specialist a few months ago for sleep apnea and he recommended a schedule for helping him get to sleep more easily and consistently. He was fine with the nap (at the time, no more than 2 hours and never past 4pm, and letting him get up after 1 hour if he hadn't fallen asleep). But for bedtime and wake up he recommended I pick a wake-up time (I was going to do 7, but ended up doing 8am) and get ds up and move him to a bright room to start his day at that time every day. Then for bedtime choose a time that was late enough that he'd be asleep in 10 minutes (10pm) and do that for a week. Then start moving the bedtime earlier every few days by increments of 15 minutes until you reach a point where he takes longer to go to sleep. He thought it would be closer to 8 than 7 (but that may have been for the 7am wake up time). It really worked -- within a few weeks ds was sleeping 8pm-7am consistently (we still had night wakings and he didn't always nap, but he was on a schedule that worked).

The problem is, of course, that things change -- they go through developmental phases and growth spurts, they get teeth, they get colds, you decide to stop trying for naps because you're sick of it, you stay up late and let them sleep in so you can sleep in -- an the schedule changes or becomes inconsistent.

Anyway, right now he has a cold and cough, he is taking 30-45 minutes to go to sleep at bedtime, and he is rarely napping. He is probably sleeping 8/8:30-6/7 most nights. Probably not quite enough sleep. He seems tired in the morning, but won't go back to sleep or sleep later. I'm just so done fighting about it. If I think he is really too tired I'll do something about it, but right now I'm just going to focus on consistent bedtime and wake-up time and see if we can get things settled down a bit.


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## forestmushroom (Sep 6, 2011)

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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Well it must be a personality thing then, because that's virtually exactly what I've done with DS most of his life... Plus he's always had a floor bed -- both a big family floor bed and a crib mattress on the floor -- not because of Montessori, I don't know much about that, but that's just what we've always had. Three years later and we are still not remotely close to kissing him goodnight & walking out the door.


Yes, we're in the same boat. DD is a long way from sleep independence, in spite of all of our efforts and routines. It's not clear to me that we're doing anything "wrong." She just won't sleep until she's good and ready....and that's been true for her entire life.


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