# Would you have stepped in?



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm not sure what forum this goes in.

O.K, so, J.C Penney was having a great sale. (I love this store) You had to buy one item a the regular price and get one more for .99.

There was a little girl in the dressing room. She was about eight years old, and VERY heavy. SHe was trying on bathing suits. Her Mom MADE her go out into the store to her Dad to show him the bathing suit. She was so embarrassed. I have no idea why the dad didn't come closer so she didn't have to parade across the store.

She pleaded that she did not like it. Her Dad said that he did, and she needed to buy it.

I went into a waiting room to try on my clothes.

I couldn't help but overhear this little girl PLEADING with her Mom not to buy it. She warned her Mom that she wouldn't wear it. She was nearly in tears begging her Mom to PLEASE not buy it.

It was a WOMAN'S bathing suit. It was not anything that at the age of 42, I myself would wear. It was the kind of suit my 65 year old mother would buy. The girl was right, it looked awful on her.

I saw them in line, and they were buying the suit. The girl was still pleading. "PLease Daddy, I don't like it" She was mortified.

I couldn't stand it, so I spoke up. I asked if I could make a suggestion. I suggested they go across the mall to Sears and look at the Land's End Tankini suits, I told them that they would cover her properly, but they look a little younger.

The little girl said, "Please Daddy, can we just look? I don't like this"

Her Dad thanked me but explained that she is too young to make her own choices as to what she will and won't wear. I looked down at her, she was So unhappy. I just wanted to put my arm around her.

Would you have stepped in?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I dunno...but I'm glad you did!









Poor kid! At least she knew SOMEONE heard her!


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

I would not have stepped in. She was not being hurt. And honestly it was none of your business.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Actually, I liked the way you did it. You didn't critisize the parents but seemed to make a useful suggestion. They disagreed...and they're wrong. Poor kid...wonder why, at 8, she can't pick her own clothes out. My oldest DC will be 8 in a couple of weeks...I just can't imagine having a "clothing war" with him. Why would I EVER care what he has on, I don't have to wear it!!







(As long as it's clean, weather appropriate, etc...)


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

it sounds to me like she was being hurt a lot.







I'm glad you said something, and you said it very nicely. Her parents sound very mean (meaner than someone just yelling at their kid for misbehaving.)


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
I would not have stepped in. She was not being hurt. And honestly it was none of your business.

She sure was being hurt, just not physically.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think your attempt to help was great! Poor kid.


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I don't like confrontations so I may not have stepped in, but I'm really glad you did. And it's not like you told them to shut up and leave her alone. You gave a valid suggestion. That little girl IS going to remember this hurt for a long time if not the rest of her life.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

I love the way you handled it! I probably wouldn't have stepped in because I'm not one who deals well with public confrontation, but may I say I admire you so much for attempting to ease the situation for that girl.







Poor girl, I feel so bad for her.


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## craftymom (Jun 27, 2005)

I think you did the exact right thing--offered a suggestion to satisfy what _seemed_ to be both her and her parents' needs. Too bad they didn't even go look. It doesn't sound like you were too pushy.

I disagree with the pp--they WERE hurting her. Humiliating her in the store, and who knows what will happen all summer.

I remember with horror the 2-piece my mother insisted I wear when probably 7 or 8. I was a little chubby and very shy (she did not approve) and did not want to be 1) wearing so little or 2) worrying about the ties of the top coming undone while I did sommersaults and played in the pool. So I got to hear all summer about how I wasted her money and I should never get another suit, ever. Constant humililation and nagging are no fun for anyone.


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
She sure was being hurt, just not physically.









How so?

It still was none of her business. How would you feel if someone in a store said you need to spank you dc?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
How so?

She was beign HUMILIATED and PLEADING with her parents to not get that suit - and her parents were completely ignoring her - that seems pretty hurtful to me...

Physical pain is not the only kind of pain a parent can inflict, and emotional pain is often times even more insidious.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

She was being publically humiliated & emotionally abused!!
What if they suggested I spank??
Well, in THIS case the OP was trying to DEFUSE a situation with common sence to HELP a child. In YOUR senario someone is suggesting I HURT my child. How is it the same?????


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
How so?

Like we've said before, she was being emotionally hurt. Would you treat you own child the same way, if you ever have them?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
How would you feel if someone in a store said you need to spank you dc?









I'd feel bad for any of their kids that they thought that hitting their child was an acceptable way to parent them.

The OP was NOT telling the parents how to parent their child, she just suggested there as a store that had more age appropriate suits available nearby. It's not like she said, "You're horrible people for humiliating your daughter."...she just offered a suggestion about bathing suits for a kid. I've had conversations with people and suggested and had suggestions made to me for other places where I could find soemthing I was looking for. OP was tryign to find a way to help the little girl WITHOUT attackign their parenting, and I think she did it beautifully. I'm just sorry for that little girl, and agree with the PP who said at least SOMEONE heard her (even if it wasn't her own parents)


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
How so?

It still was none of her business. How would you feel if someone in a store said you need to spank you dc?










thats completely different and you know it.

How was she being harmed? Humiliation?.... Sorry, but if my mom tried to put me in clothes I didn't like as a child at best they never came out of the cloest at worst I would come home naked. She would ask me where the clothes went, usually shoes, and I would say they got lost in the swamp.

Being forced to wear or do something (like this) is humiliation. If a dad insists the daughter hold the hand while crossing the street, fine, no need to intervine. If a daughter is pleading and crying in the middle of the store and the dad is still telling her she is going to wear something as personal as a swimsuit she doesn't feel comfortable in, then that is humiliation.

What if your dad got you a 2 piece when you were 9 or 10 and just starting to develope, you didn't want to wear a 2 piece and your dad said 'Sorry, you are a woman now and you will wear what I tell you, big girls wear 2 piece swim suits." *EDIT* However he said you were to young to shave your arms legs or arm pits.

Would that be harmful to a girl who then goes out to get gawked at and talked about by the boys in her class when all she wanted to do was fit in?

Social humiliation is harm.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

:


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## E&Gmommy (Mar 23, 2006)

Just wanted to saw what you did was awsome. I probably wouldn't have; I'm too shy. You also showed her that there is kind people out there ever if she does not see that at home often. --Michelle


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you SO much for stepping in. She was being hurt. I can't see how any parent could not see that







:

Poor little girl


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Good for you for chatting with them so nicely. Perhaps your statements will rumble around in the father's head and someday he'll look at the nice, modest Land's End suits rather than shop in the old lady section.

As to the question of how she was being hurt...I started my first diet when I was 9. And I wasn't, in retrospect, heavy at all. But I felt it, and that feeling was deep in my soul, and hurt every moment I thought of it. If my mom hadn't been the nice mom she was, if she made me wear awful clothing that made me look WORSE than I already felt...I would still be hurt.

Being that heavy at 8 is damaging, and being forced to wear horrid clothing, probably out of some odd punishment on the part of the parents, makes a bad situation even more terrible.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think what you did was perfect, but going any further would have been inappropriate. You can't force people to be more sensitive to their children's feelings, but you did give them a practical suggestion and that was a good idea.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
I would not have stepped in. She was not being hurt. And honestly it was none of your business.

She wasn't being hurt? Who are you kidding? Have you neverheard of emotional pain?







:


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## Doodadsmom (May 27, 2005)

I think that you were reasonably polite about it...and that little girl knows that at least one adult thinks her opinion matters.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
As to the question of how she was being hurt...I started my first diet when I was 9. And I wasn't, in retrospect, heavy at all. But I felt it, and that feeling was deep in my soul, and hurt every moment I thought of it. If my mom hadn't been the nice mom she was, if she made me wear awful clothing that made me look WORSE than I already felt...I would still be hurt.
.

I was extremely thin as a child, and as a young adult. (my nick name was peglegs) I remember vividly wanting something to fit me, and envisioning how I would look in it. I was always so disappointed when nothing fit right. Except those horrid polyester suits. (in the 70s) I REFUSED to wear them. I would wear hand me down boys jeans before I would wear polyester. My bought me TWO outfits, told me how nice I looked, but learned her lesson. She never made me feel bad. To this day, I wish I had owned a pair of girls jeans with appliqued flower power pockets.

It is terrible not to fit in. But, to have your parents force you to wear something that makes you more noticeable, it must be even worse.


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
She was being publically humiliated & emotionally abused!!
What if they suggested I spank??
Well, in THIS case the OP was trying to DEFUSE a situation with common sence to HELP a child. In YOUR senario someone is suggesting I HURT my child. How is it the same?????

In both cases people are butting in your business and telling you how to parent. There are people who think spanking does DEFUSE a situation and others dont. Just MYOB unless it is extreme.

I guess i feel this way bc i know people who have gotten beat up trying to make suggestions about others parenting styles.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, it's a risk, but if you judge the situation and try to intervene in a non-confrontational way, that minimizes the risk.

I don't think behaving out of fear is the greatest idea.


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## turtlemama77 (Jul 29, 2005)

I think the suggestion made to the girl's parents was fine. Maybe they didn't know that there are other places to get swimming suits and perhaps they will think about it and end up where the OP suggested.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
How so?

It still was none of her business. How would you feel if someone in a store said you need to spank you dc?










Wow...I'm just curious as to how you can find this so humorous?







:


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
In both cases people are butting in your business and telling you how to parent. There are people who think spanking does DEFUSE a situation and others dont. Just MYOB unless it is extreme.

"Can't you see your daughter is upset? You should take her to this store instead."

THAT'S telling someone how to parent.

"I saw some great tankini swimsuits down the hall at this other store, if you're interested."

That's not saying *anything* about his parenting. It's a simple, friendly suggestion and information he may not have had before. There's a clear distinction between the two types of statements.


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## tifnglen (Jan 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama*
Wow...I'm just curious as to how you can find this so humorous?







:

Its funny how you people think getting into someones business is ok. You all do not help raise other peoples children do you.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
In both cases people are butting in your business and telling you how to parent.

But this situation did NOT involve her telling them how to *parent*. Have you never heard a conversation in line in front of you, know that you have knowledge that it seems they don't, and give them that knowledge? Gol, I do it often. And people are usually glad to have the info.

Whether it's where to find what they are buying, but cheaper, or where to find something they are talking about, it's common and normal and OK to give people info that they don't have.

I barely even see this as a parenting thing, but a knowledge thing. Now if she'd gotten all in their faces about making the girl leave the dressing room area, that's parenting. If she'd gotten in their faces about questionable nutrition at home, that's a parenting thing. But letting them know of another place to buy bathing suits? Regardless of the REASON in her heart and mind for the suggestion, at its basis, it's just an informational moment.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
Its funny how you people think getting into someones business is ok. You all do not help raise other peoples children do you.









I think it's funny how some people think children being publically humiliated isn't other people's business.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
IHer Dad thanked me but explained that she is too young to make her own choices as to what she will and won't wear.

WTF???
DD makes her own choices about what she will and won't wear, and she just turned three! (I will admit to giving her limited options for my cousin's wedding, but she wanted to wear the fanciest dress in her closet, anyway.) How on earth is a child _ever_ "too young to make her own choices" about what's going to cover her body??? DD gets guidance about the weather, of course. I point out when it's too cold for the shorts and pajama top or whatever that she wants to wear. But, if she's not in danger of sunstroke or catching a chill, she can wear whatever she likes.

I don't know if I'd have stepped in or not. I'm not very good at dealing with stuff like that in public. But, I think the way the OP handled it was great. She kept it as non-judgmental as possible, but did at least provide a possibility that the little girl was going to be able to wear something she wouldn't be humiliated in. I hope the little girl remembers that _someone_ heard her.


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

While I understand you felt the need to defend this poor kid, I would never jump in or condone someone else jumping in.

WHY???? you ask?

I've been the kid. When you have a parent that is a total control freak like these people seem to be. Oh have mercy on the kid when the family gets to the parking lot. It becomes the child's fault that someone spoke to THEM in the store. The child has embarrased THEM.

It never was and never will be about the kid. It is all about the control freak in charge.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Celtain*
I've been the kid. When you have a parent that is a total control freak like these people seem to be. Oh have mercy on the kid when the family gets to the parking lot. I becomes the child's fault that someone spoke to THEM in the store. The child has embarrased THEM.

yeah...I think that may be why I've always tended to avoid jumping in on that kind of thing. Hopefully, the suggestion the OP made wasn't "obvious" enough to cause the child any grief.


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

As nice as you feel like you were, it may have caused even more problems for that little girl. Even though the parents shouldnt treat her that way, a one time speech to parents like that probably doesnt really help.

If that had been me as a child, I would have probably gotten a good yelling at in the car all the way home which would have worked my stepdad into a frenzy, causing he and my mom to fight over it and then resulted in a belt beating by him when I got home because i was whiney and loud enough in the store for others to hear which embarrassed him.

It was nice of you to try though.

Maybe another thought would have been to tell the little girl... i bet you will be having so much fun this summer that you wont even worry about what kind of suit you are wearing!

Or telling her that she has such a beautiful personality that the bathing suit doesnt change that. No matter what she is wearing, as long s it is with a smile, she will be gorgeous.

Just my opinion... since you asked.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Celtain, I could have written your post. Woe betide me, as a child if I had made enough fuss that some other grown-up felt like they had to step in.

Poor kid probably got a huge spanking in the parking lot or at home.


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Celtain*
While I understand you felt the need to defend this poor kid, I would never jump in or condone someone else jumping in.

WHY???? you ask?

I've been the kid. When you have a parent that is a total control freak like these people seem to be. Oh have mercy on the kid when the family gets to the parking lot. It becomes the child's fault that someone spoke to THEM in the store. The child has embarrased THEM.

It never was and never will be about the kid. It is all about the control freak in charge.

Exactly what i wanted to say!


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## Celtain (Mar 10, 2004)

As much as it sucks, it's nice to know I'm not the only one.








for all of us


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:

I guess i feel this way bc i know people who have gotten beat up trying to make suggestions about others parenting styles.
There were no comments made about parenting style...at worst the OP commented on their fashion sense. Or maybe their choice of shopping venues.

To the OP...I think you did the right thing...nothing that crossed the line in my opinion. And maybe they really didn't know there were better choices just down the mall.

And while it does seem that in this case the girl was unhappy with what her parents bought for her we shouldn't read too much into the situation and assume that the parents were trying to humiliate her because of her weight. She did afterall speak up for herself multiple times...kids who are routinely emotionally abused *don't* usually speak up for themselves. I'd like to think that this is just going to be this girls orange and brown plaid overalls or purple courderoy jeans...both of which I had as a child, would beg, beg, BEG not to wear but sometimes had to at my mom's insistence...who wasn't trying to humiliate me...she just really thought that they were sometimes appropriate. ETA....They weren't...looking back I think this is whole new category of abuse that began in the 70's...I call it fashion abuse.









Casey


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
And while it does seem that in this case the girl was unhappy with what her parents bought for her we shouldn't read too much into the situation and assume that the parents were trying to humiliate her because of her weight. She did afterall speak up for herself multiple times...kids who are routinely emotionally abused *don't* usually speak up for themselves. I'd like to think that this is just going to be this girls orange and brown plaid overalls or purple courderoy jeans...both of which I had as a child, would beg, beg, BEG not to wear but sometimes had to at my mom's insistence...who wasn't trying to humiliate me...she just really thought that they were sometimes appropriate.


No one feels that my husband was emotionally *abused*, but he WAS a "husky" boy, and he was made to wear clothes that ACCENTUATED it, and hairstyles that made his face rounder, and wasn't allowed to wear things that might have made him feel GOOD about himself. He used to speak up for himself too, but wasn't listened to, and was simply forced to wear his "big boy" clothes and bowl haircuts...doesn't mean it didn't scar him and destroy his self esteem, though...


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## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

The best example of stepping in without hurting anyone that I have ever seen is the first story in the book, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. The author actaully connected, participated and acted. I learned so much from it. I think you did great and what I learned to do more is to actually let the child know that what she feels is right while also being supportive to the paret. As in the example in the book.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm not sure what it says about us as a society where people can't talk to one another in line at a store


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

as a child and a teenager i was pretty much told what i had to wear, (by my wicked stepmother) no jeans,only stretchy "slacks" or dresses. I would have loved someone to try and step in for me. It was so embarrassing as a child not to be wearing what other children wore. Than there was the bowl haircut she gave me but that's another story.
So i think you did great!


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## littlemama06 (Oct 29, 2005)

I think what you did was wonderful.









Kaitlin


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that a lot of posters are assuming that this situation is just like what they went through as children when they were forced to always wear ugly clothes...my point is that it could just as easily be similar to my situation where there was no humiliation intended but my parents sometimes made questionable fashoin choices on my behalf (come to think of it I probably made just as many "questionable" decisions of my own







).

In any case we have no proof that her parents consistenly force her into ugly clothes as punishment for being fat (what were her street clothes like? Since the OP didn't say I just assumed she was dressed "normal" for a kid her age) or that she would have been yelled at in the car or spanked later for complaining. She could have been but she could just as easily not have been. I wouldn't like for people to base the opinion of my whole parenting style based on a 10 minute snap shot. And really, maybe the parents DID like the swimsuit. My mom really did like the purple cords. And the pink and purple plaid shirt that went with them. She thought they were spiffy and would probably still think so today.

It would be nice if every parent just let their kid make their own fashion choices but the reality of it is not every parent will do that. Drives my husband batty that our 3 year old really likes to wear his dinosaur rubber boots without socks everywhere...but we let him...lots of parents wouldn't but thats hardly abuse. And is it always practical to let a kid make their own decisions? If it had been an 8 year old in a women's string bikini and the parents were saying no...you can't make that choice for yourself what would the issue be then?

Casey


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## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)

That is so sad








Good for you for steping in so nicely


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that a lot of posters are assuming that this situation is just like what they went through as children when they were forced to always wear ugly clothes...my point is that it could just as easily be similar to my situation where there was no humiliation intended but my parents sometimes made questionable fashoin choices on my behalf (come to think of it I probably made just as many "questionable" decisions of my own







).
Casey

I do see your point here, which is why I think the OPs "intervention" was really a good balance - it was innocuous enough, but maybe gave them a little something to think about - it wasn't "all up in their business", and I don't think it was at all attacking their parenting, it was just offering an option that maybe they didn't know or tihnk about.

And if it was a situation where the little girl is not listened to and ignored much of the time, it probably gave her a glimmer of hope that someone thought she was worth listening to, even if just for a minute.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that a lot of posters are assuming that this situation is just like what they went through as children when they were forced to always wear ugly clothes...my point is that it could just as easily be similar to my situation where there was no humiliation intended but my parents sometimes made questionable fashoin choices on my behalf (come to think of it I probably made just as many "questionable" decisions of my own







).

In any case we have no proof that her parents consistenly force her into ugly clothes as punishment for being fat (what were her street clothes like? Since the OP didn't say I just assumed she was dressed "normal" for a kid her age) or that she would have been yelled at in the car or spanked later for complaining. She could have been but she could just as easily not have been. I wouldn't like for people to base the opinion of my whole parenting style based on a 10 minute snap shot. And really, maybe the parents DID like the swimsuit. My mom really did like the purple cords. And the pink and purple plaid shirt that went with them. She thought they were spiffy and would probably still think so today.

It would be nice if every parent just let their kid make their own fashion choices but the reality of it is not every parent will do that. Drives my husband batty that our 3 year old really likes to wear his dinosaur rubber boots without socks everywhere...but we let him...lots of parents wouldn't but thats hardly abuse. And is it always practical to let a kid make their own decisions? If it had been an 8 year old in a women's string bikini and the parents were saying no...you can't make that choice for yourself what would the issue be then?

Casey


Ok, not in this situation, just want to preface this that my post is out of the spectrum of this thread.

I get what you are saying here and I do agree. However, what took place was fairly normal and there was no harm no foul. The OP didn't push her views, just offered another place to shop.

as for the string bikini. It is far different to push a child to grow up than to allow them to explore growing up on their own. I wouldn't allow my child (for arguments sake) to wear a string bikini.

However, if they wanted to push the boundaries at 12 and ask for a revealing 2 piece, then that would be something we would talk about. I wouldn't veto her idea's on the outset, I would have a discussion telling her my opinions on the string bikini.

If she demanded it, I may wind up getting it for her just for my own amusement. I know the first time she puts it on and goes outside she would feel way out of place, being only 12 years old.

I think children should be 'allowed' to make their own mistakes within reason, and I also know that a 12 year old can and will earn their own money if they want something bad enough, I can't stop them (technically) So putting fake boundaries up would be uselss to me.

I went on a tangent, it was based around 'not allowing her to wear a thong'. The thing is, not allowing her to wear something, is far different to me than forcing her to wear something. If I said 'No, no string bikini's' and she came back with a 2 piece that covered her bum, I, in my head, would see that as a decent compromise. She still has the options to get something she wants, just not that.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

morningglory, I was agreeing that it wasn't _necessarily_ abuse, or being done to punish (even though I initially wondered in my first post if it WAS being done to punish). My MIL thought Robert looked GOOD in the "husky" clothes, and I'm not just talking about the size, but the style. She thought he looked good with the bowl cut. She just wouldn't listen to him that he didn't look good, didn't feel good, and wanted to wear other things. I agree with you.


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

I was just in Penney's and their children's suits were very limited and almost all very poorly made. I had a great coupon ($10 off any purchase) so my dd and I were determined to find one but I so wouldn't have minded a suggestion.


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:

I do see your point here, which is why I think the OPs "intervention" was really a good balance - it was innocuous enough, but maybe gave them a little something to think about - it wasn't "all up in their business", and I don't think it was at all attacking their parenting, it was just offering an option that maybe they didn't know or tihnk about.

And if it was a situation where the little girl is not listened to and ignored much of the time, it probably gave her a glimmer of hope that someone thought she was worth listening to, even if just for a minute.

Quote:

morningglory, I was agreeing that it wasn't necessarily abuse, or being done to punish (even though I initially wondered in my first post if it WAS being done to punish). My MIL thought Robert looked GOOD in the "husky" clothes, and I'm not just talking about the size, but the style. She thought he looked good with the bowl cut. She just wouldn't listen to him that he didn't look good, didn't feel good, and wanted to wear other things. I agree with you.
Yeah...I think its great that the OP spoke up. Really though if the parents honestly *did* think the suit looked good then that makes it even harder to change their minds.

Quote:

I was just in Penney's and their children's suits were very limited and almost all very poorly made. I had a great coupon ($10 off any purchase) so my dd and I were determined to find one but I so wouldn't have minded a suggestion.
Maybe this family had that same coupon!









Quote:

Ok, not in this situation, just want to preface this that my post is out of the spectrum of this thread.

I get what you are saying here and I do agree. However, what took place was fairly normal and there was no harm no foul. The OP didn't push her views, just offered another place to shop.

as for the string bikini. It is far different to push a child to grow up than to allow them to explore growing up on their own. I wouldn't allow my child (for arguments sake) to wear a string bikini.

However, if they wanted to push the boundaries at 12 and ask for a revealing 2 piece, then that would be something we would talk about. I wouldn't veto her idea's on the outset, I would have a discussion telling her my opinions on the string bikini.

If she demanded it, I may wind up getting it for her just for my own amusement. I know the first time she puts it on and goes outside she would feel way out of place, being only 12 years old.

I think children should be 'allowed' to make their own mistakes within reason, and I also know that a 12 year old can and will earn their own money if they want something bad enough, I can't stop them (technically) So putting fake boundaries up would be uselss to me.

I went on a tangent, it was based around 'not allowing her to wear a thong'. The thing is, not allowing her to wear something, is far different to me than forcing her to wear something. If I said 'No, no string bikini's' and she came back with a 2 piece that covered her bum, I, in my head, would see that as a decent compromise. She still has the options to get something she wants, just not that.
You're right...it is different to say "not that one, pick another" rather than "you will wear this"

And I agree with children being allowed to make their own mistakes within reason but its just so darn hard to decide what is within reason. Unfortunately in our society there are some sick individuals who will be too happy to take advantage of your 12 year old daughter if you let her dress older than what she is. How do you draw the line with that? Sure kids *should* be able to dress any old way and as their parents we can take comfort in knowing that all adults will behave as decent human beings but thats just not the case a lot of the time. I don't know...I'm not saying it should go one way or the other...I'm just saying I have no idea what I would do in the situation. Thank heaven I have boys...









Casey


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
Unfortunately in our society there are some sick individuals who will be too happy to take advantage of your 12 year old daughter if you let her dress older than what she is.

A whole of them will be only too happy to take advantage of a 12-year-old, no matter what she's wearing. People who prey on 12-year-olds are sick, and I really don't think a skimpy swimsuit is going to make that much difference one way or the other.


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
A whole of them will be only too happy to take advantage of a 12-year-old, no matter what she's wearing. People who prey on 12-year-olds are sick, and I really don't think a skimpy swimsuit is going to make that much difference one way or the other.

True, however if your 12 year old is hanging out with 14 year olds you have more to worry about than perveted adults.

Situational to me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
True, however if your 12 year old is hanging out with 14 year olds you have more to worry about than perveted adults.

Probably generally true. But, my ds1 and his cousin were hanging around with a 13-year-old when they were 10 or 11 (she was a friend of my niece). The girl was on about the same emotional level, and wasn't anymore sexual than my son or niece. I didn't particularly care for her (or her mom), but I wasn't worried about her age.

Anyway...I don't think that hanging around with 14-year-olds is the same thing as wanting to wear a bikini. I think when girls start wanting to dress like that so young, it's probably partly peer pressure, and partly beginning to explore their sexuality. I can remember putting together outfits at 12 or 13 that would have made even my mom (who was pretty relaxed about what I wore) freak a little if she'd seen them. I was finding sexuality very confusing and having a lot of trouble navigating it...

(Okay - this has become a total OT tangent. I'll stop now.)


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Celtain*
When you have a parent that is a total control freak like these people seem to be. Oh have mercy on the kid when the family gets to the parking lot. It becomes the child's fault that someone spoke to THEM in the store. The child has embarrased THEM.

Exactly. Sometimes when You interfere it makes things WORSE for the child.

So no, I would NOT have interferred.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
In any case we have no proof that her parents consistenly force her into ugly clothes as punishment for being fat (what were her street clothes like?

I don't think it was as a punishment for being fat. I think they thought it covered her body, and it was an "appropriate" bathing suit. But, it was an ugly old woman's suit. I wanted to support the poor kid. (actually I wanted to grab her and run) Because I could see it in her face.....this was a shopping day that she will forever remember.

I don't think the father cared one bit what the child felt. What he felt was the only important thing here. But, if her mother had just looked at her face, and saw what I saw, it would have broken her heart. Maybe I'm just too sympathetic. (My husband thinks I am) But, I was actually heartsick for this girl.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
Unfortunately in our society there are some sick individuals who will be too happy to take advantage of your 12 year old daughter if you let her dress older than what she is.

O.K, LOL, but this kid is going to the pool dressed as a 60 year old.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I think the way you did it was great. I would have stood there wanting to say something and never thought of the great suggestion you made.

To the mama who said she wasn't hurt, I think you are very very mistaken. She may be a child but it does not mean her feelings aren't real or that they can be so easily dismissed. I'll bet you wouldn't like it if something your family was forcing you to do something that hurt your feelings and frightened you and their only response to your pleas were, "She's only a woman, she doesn't have the brains to make her own decisions about life." I thought gentle disciple was about respecting children, not dismissing them.


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

Quote:

O.K, LOL, but this kid is going to the pool dressed as a 60 year old.








....sorry...I thought I had a quote near that...that part was in reference to the wild tangent that some of us went on involving "yeah but what if..."

I don't think she should have to dress like a grandma...I think its great that you stepped in...but if this is the worst memory she has from childhood then I'd say she is ahead of the game!







Of course this probably won't be the worst memory...the day she has to wear it to the school swimming party probably will be!

Casey


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

In the OP, I did not see her as 'interfering', she made a suggestion, that was it.

Quote:

Sometimes when You interfere it makes things WORSE for the child.
So, it is okay to let a child suffer?
I think that speaks volumes about our society as a whole.
If you think it will make a situation worse, then contact security and alert them to the situation, don't just ignore it.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

It really just depends on the kid, i think. I too was the kid with parents similar to what others have described and yeah, sometimes someone taking notice or speaking to my mom when she was going off made things worse when we were out of the spotlight of the grocery store line or whatever. But that didn't matter to me (I always expected that; it was routine and not in the least surprising). What did matter to me - and I remember every instance - is that an adult spoke up, offered an alternative, help, or tried to diffuse the situation. Those instances always stuck with me and let me know that I wasn't crazy for thinking this wasn't normal and that I wasn't worthless and people did see me and not just the burden my birth mother seemed to see. It reminded me I had every right to see my parent as whacked.

I could take any tirade or crazy/fierce spanking after someone graciously and non-confrontationally stepped in.

I find it so sad that we are more and more a society of by-standers. We've totally bought the line that stepping in is wrong or makes things more dangerous for the child. All those lines do is protect the abusers. I'm sure it's the abusers who started making that line of thinking so mainstream.

So, whether or not this girl had a home life similar to mine or not I think offering up another option to the parents (and child) was a really good way of trying to help the girl out without overtly embarrassing the parents (as some warped parents think they've been after someone steps in).

I'm with MITB here. If we never speak up for fear of making things worse at home what are we saying to the children in the situations who are being publically beat or humiliated etc? As that kid I can tell you it told me loud and clear that what my mom was doing was perfectly OK and that I could trust very few adults to help me out, contrary to what teachers, girl guide leaders, cops etc were always teaching in class.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
I find it so sad that we are more and more a society of by-standers. We've totally bought the line that stepping in is wrong or makes things more dangerous for the child.

Not stepping in doesn't mean you are a bystander. It means you accept the fact that other parents and people have a right to live their lives the way they want to, and the right to parent in a way they see appropriate, WHETHER OR NOT WE AGREE WITH IT.

If you aren't the girl's parents and you aren't involved in the situation, it is pretty easy to point fingers about how horribly wrong those parents were being. But nothing is ever that black and white when you're IN the situation. There are about a million factors that could have affected the tone of that situation and changed what it was really about.

I'm sure the OP did everything she could to make suggestions in a non-offensive way. But when you are telling other people how to parent (and I'm sure everyone here knows how frustrating THAT is), there just aren't too many ways to do it in a way that's going to be accepted.

I really find it ironic that so many people on MDC think they know how other people should parent and want to interfere so much of the time. I mean, who here hasn't gotten dirty looks for breastfeeding? Or comments about how we don't discipline (i.e. shame) our children? We have mostly all chosen different paths from the rest of society and we expect others to honor our right to follow that path.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Not stepping in doesn't mean you are a bystander. It means you accept the fact that other parents and people have a right to live their lives the way they want to, and the right to parent in a way they see appropriate, WHETHER OR NOT WE AGREE WITH IT.

I was not talking about telling others how to parent. I was talking about when we see a child being abused or mistreated. There is a HUGE difference.
No human being has the *right* to hurt a child. *We all have the right to stop it.*


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
No human being has the *right* to hurt a child. *We all have the right to stop it.*


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## Eman'smom (Mar 19, 2002)

Remember you didn't see their whole day

What if they had the 10 dollar off coupon we all had, and swimwear was onsale (making the price the only thing they could afford). What if they had tried on every suit they could find, and the only two were the string bikini and that suit? What if they had been there 2 hours trying on suits, and the dad was at the end of his rope?

I'm not saying what the parents did was right, but you only have a partial story. I'd sure hate to be judged on only seeing part of my parenting.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I was not talking about telling others how to parent. I was talking about when we see a child being abused or mistreated. There is a HUGE difference.
No human being has the *right* to hurt a child. *We all have the right to stop it.*

Well, unfortunately, short of obvious abuse, there is a HUGE gray area in terms of what people consider hurting a child.

There are MANY things that one person would find hurtful that others wouldn't, and vice versa. And that's just the people who have the whole story about a situation, which no one does here.

So, who gets to determine when a child is being hurt and it's OK to butt in and offer advice? You? Many people feel I'm hurting my child by nursing him at the age of 2.5 years. Why is it OK for them to butt in and offer their ignorant advice and comments?


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Kristi, I think the difference is that when you're seen nursing your toddler you are not in distress and struggling. There was a struggle in this instance and a child and parent were both upset (the child much more so). It doesn't matter if someone at the grocery store has my whole story or not, if they see me frustrated and with a metling down child I am more than happy for some help, whether it be a "hang in there, you're doing fine" or a smile or engaging my child while I pay _or letting me know that the ice cream department offers no sugar added, natural fruit sorbets because they're witnessing my DS and I lock heads over junk freezies or ice creams._ It doesn't mean I'm being told how to parent and I don't have to do anything with the information, but now I know. There doesn't have to be judgement involved and the way the OP responded was without judgement - she offered some info they might not have had.

Sometimes just offering up some information or engaging a child or adult when there's a power struggle or distress, meltdown, whatever is enough to diffuse the situation and for the adult to take a step back and breathe. It takes the focus off the disagreement. Obviously in the interaction the OP witnesses neither child nor adult were enjoying themselves - how can it hurt to offer something which might help the situation? The OP didn't comment on the parenting nor did she heap judgement on the child or the adult.

Totally different than coming up to a parent and child interaction which at that moment is working and offering contrary advice.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Many people feel I'm hurting my child by nursing him at the age of 2.5 years. Why is it OK for them to butt in and offer their ignorant advice and comments?

The law is very clear on what constitutes abuse.
Also, the OP did not "butt in" and offer her opinions on parenting. She made a suggestion.

If the child had *not been crying*, would you all still be upset with her suggestion to the other parents?


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial*
Her Mom MADE her go out into the store to her Dad to show him the bathing suit. She was so embarrassed. I have no idea why the dad didn't come closer so she didn't have to parade across the store.

Probably to "motivate" her so she would want to lose weight. My mom thought shaming me and making me angry would work. It didn't.







I think making the suggestion you did was fine, totally within bounds. People make comments to me all the time. I just smile and thank them or acknowledge what they are saying.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I think what you did was perfect. You were an advocate for that little girl & she will remember that all her life.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
Kristi, I think the difference is that when you're seen nursing your toddler you are not in distress and struggling. There was a struggle in this instance and a child and parent were both upset (the child much more so). It doesn't matter if someone at the grocery store has my whole story or not, if they see me frustrated and with a metling down child I am more than happy for some help, whether it be a "hang in there, you're doing fine" or a smile or engaging my child while I pay _or letting me know that the ice cream department offers no sugar added, natural fruit sorbets because they're witnessing my DS and I lock heads over junk freezies or ice creams._ It doesn't mean I'm being told how to parent and I don't have to do anything with the information, but now I know. There doesn't have to be judgement involved and the way the OP responded was without judgement - she offered some info they might not have had.

Sometimes just offering up some information or engaging a child or adult when there's a power struggle or distress, meltdown, whatever is enough to diffuse the situation and for the adult to take a step back and breathe. It takes the focus off the disagreement. Obviously in the interaction the OP witnesses neither child nor adult were enjoying themselves - how can it hurt to offer something which might help the situation? The OP didn't comment on the parenting nor did she heap judgement on the child or the adult.

Totally different than coming up to a parent and child interaction which at that moment is working and offering contrary advice.









:







:







:


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## Bridge's Mom (Mar 15, 2006)

Yes, I would have stepped in and used eye contact to let the little girl know I see her. Good Job!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
The law is very clear on what constitutes abuse.

And a father who thought his daughter was too young to wear a bathing suit *inappropriate in HIS eyes* IS?


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Not stepping in doesn't mean you are a bystander. It means you accept the fact that other parents and people have a right to live their lives the way they want to, and the right to parent in a way they see appropriate, WHETHER OR NOT WE AGREE WITH IT.

If you aren't the girl's parents and you aren't involved in the situation, it is pretty easy to point fingers about how horribly wrong those parents were being. But nothing is ever that black and white when you're IN the situation. There are about a million factors that could have affected the tone of that situation and changed what it was really about.

I'm sure the OP did everything she could to make suggestions in a non-offensive way. But when you are telling other people how to parent (and I'm sure everyone here knows how frustrating THAT is), there just aren't too many ways to do it in a way that's going to be accepted.

I really find it ironic that so many people on MDC think they know how other people should parent and want to interfere so much of the time. I mean, who here hasn't gotten dirty looks for breastfeeding? Or comments about how we don't discipline (i.e. shame) our children? We have mostly all chosen different paths from the rest of society and we expect others to honor our right to follow that path.

Good posting.


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

This situation has nothing to do with questioning parenting skills. The OP never said "you guys are parenting wrong" or "you are monsters for making her wear the bathing suit." She simply made a suggestion. Had it been a grown woman choosing a bathing suit and not finding one that fit, she probably would have recommended the other store as well. What's the difference?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

So, who gets to determine when a child is being hurt and it's OK to butt in and offer advice? You? Many people feel I'm hurting my child by nursing him at the age of 2.5 years. Why is it OK for them to butt in and offer their ignorant advice and comments?
First of all, the OP did not offer ignorant advice and comments, she made a polite suggestion which they could take or leave.

Secondly, if your child were crying and BEGGING you to not nurse him, I might think it would be OK for someone to "butt in."


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## mom2evan (Feb 3, 2005)

I've been musing over this question a lot lately because of a couple of incidents that I have witnessed and some that have happened to me.

(There's a great section in Playful Parenting on this exact topic, by the way.)

I worry about the degree to which people are disconnected, and how that leads to quick, and often negative judgments about one another, but does not lead us to reach out and make a supportive connection.

This is a bit off topic, but last week's "This I Believe" story on NPR was written by a soldier who, upon returning from the Vietnam War, found himself in a bus station feeling tired, defeated, and isolated. A little girl came up to him and gave him a magazine, and he's never forgotten that small effort to make a connection.

I staunchly support what the OP did. I think it struck exactly the right balance between offering useful advice, making a connection that let the little girl know she was heard, and yet not judging or condemning the parents.

I don't want to live in a world where how a child is being treated is none of my business. It is all of our business. No, I don't welcome "dirty looks" when I nurse my 2 y.o. DS in public, but there's no effort made to do anything other than judge and disconnect in that case. I DO welcome the help from a grocery store clerk who sees my son about to have a complete meltdown in the cart and who whips out a roll of stickers and gives some to him. I DO welcome help from a waiter who sees my son getting restless and offers to put a cartoon video in a nearby TV for my son to watch. No, my son doesn't watch TV, but I appreciated the offer, nevertheless.

I believe we have to reach out and support both parents and children whenever we can, in a way that emphasizes our connection to each other. I think the OP took a good approach.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
And a father who thought his daughter was too young to wear a bathing suit *inappropriate in HIS eyes* IS?









It's not about what the dad thinks is alright for her to wear, it's how he went about it and made her feel. What he did TO her is emotional abuse.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
There are about a million factors that could have affected the tone of that situation and changed what it was really about.

This bears repeating.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

You don't need to know anything other than what's happening in front of you isn't working for either parent or child and a distraction or some new info could change that around and give either party an out or pause enough to catch their breath.

At the very least it reminds the parents that they're not in their living room and a loud struggle impacts not just themselves and their daughters but the other people that are sharing space with them. Something like that would not only upset me but my young son very much so I'd have an interest (additional to the one based in kindness even to those I don't know) in trying to diffuse the situation a bit.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

From the MDC Web Statement of Purpose:

Quote:

*At Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.*
We each have our own comfort level with "stepping in," and IMO, it's up to each of us to be gentle advocates for those who can't speak for themselves, in whatever way feels right for us in the circumstances in which we find ourselves.


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2evan*
I've been musing over this question a lot lately because of a couple of incidents that I have witnessed and some that have happened to me.

(There's a great section in Playful Parenting on this exact topic, by the way.)

I worry about the degree to which people are disconnected, and how that leads to quick, and often negative judgments about one another, but does not lead us to reach out and make a supportive connection.

This is a bit off topic, but last week's "This I Believe" story on NPR was written by a soldier who, upon returning from the Vietnam War, found himself in a bus station feeling tired, defeated, and isolated. A little girl came up to him and gave him a magazine, and he's never forgotten that small effort to make a connection.

I staunchly support what the OP did. I think it struck exactly the right balance between offering useful advice, making a connection that let the little girl know she was heard, and yet not judging or condemning the parents.

I don't want to live in a world where how a child is being treated is none of my business. It is all of our business. No, I don't welcome "dirty looks" when I nurse my 2 y.o. DS in public, but there's no effort made to do anything other than judge and disconnect in that case. I DO welcome the help from a grocery store clerk who sees my son about to have a complete meltdown in the cart and who whips out a roll of stickers and gives some to him. I DO welcome help from a waiter who sees my son getting restless and offers to put a cartoon video in a nearby TV for my son to watch. No, my son doesn't watch TV, but I appreciated the offer, nevertheless.

I believe we have to reach out and support both parents and children whenever we can, in a way that emphasizes our connection to each other. I think the OP took a good approach.











To the OP:







! I think that what you said what great, as most of the PPs said, I really think that you struck a great balance of offering advice and not judging the parents.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
We each have our own comfort level with "stepping in," and IMO, it's up to each of us to be gentle advocates for those who can't speak for themselves, in whatever way feels right for us in the circumstances in which we find ourselves.









:


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

I would not have stepped in. She was not being hurt
Emotional pain is just as bad as physical. I would have said something also


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

I think it's funny how some people think children being publically humiliated isn't other people's business.
I'd say "reprehensible". The "it's not my business" attitude perpetuates bullying throughout our society. I suppose the next time I see a child being mean to another child, or an animal, I should tell my child "don't get involved, it's not our business." I am _proud_ that when my child sees someone being mistreated, they speak up. I can't ethically do anything less.

The child's right to not be humiliated trumps the parents' right to humiliate her. Sorry, but I could care less what their relationship to her is. Their ownership of her doesn't make it right, and it's doesn't make it wrong for me to speak out.

Anyway, how the OP handled it was just great. I wish I could be as cool-headed and diplomatic in these types of situations. It reminds me of once when we were grocery shopping and I was having a hard time with my two small children. I was about ready to crack. At one point I grabbed one of their arms and was hissing at them to behave (nice, I know.) An elderly woman sidled over and started telling me what beautiful children I had, and she proceeded to talk to them very kindly and sweetly, with no hint of judgement in her voice. She totally diffused the situation with nothing more than kindness, and gave me a chance to step back, take a breath, and get some perspective.

To the OP, you did a wonderful thing. Even if it didn't help the parents wake up a bit, that little girl at least knows she was heard and felt another human being's support, even as subtle and indirect as it was. For all you know, she may carry that validation with her for a long time and it may in some small way help her survive her parents' unconcern for her feelings.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

ITA with fourlittlebirds. I don't want to be part of a society where we close our eyes and cover our ears so we don't ever dare getting involved.

I think it's so important to be a positive influence in whatever way we are able. For some it might be volunteering and/or donating to child-friendly causes, for others, marching in political rallies, for others, simply living their lives, reaching out a helping hand and offering kindness whenever they can


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:

Would you have stepped in?
YES! With the same solution. I have a niece who is 10 and is a little heavier. Nobody else in their family is this heavy. She got her Nana's genes. They just don't get how to choose clothes for her. She likes to do it herself but then feels pressure because they would like her to stess conservatively, but just because it covers everything doesn't mean it looks nice. I have taken she and her sister shopping without their parents and I buy what they pick out. I don't go against being modest,BUT you can find tasteful modest clothing that is NOT "Granny Gump" backwoods bargains.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I wanted to address the idea that the intervention would cause the child more pain from the subsequent punishment...

_ETA: I don't particularly see this issue as being on-topic for the OP, but it was raised in subsequent posts. This is to address those posts._

I see it differently. Let me first say that I was also one of those kids who would've gotten the beating of a lifetime for making a stranger take notice. So I'm not speaking theory here.

Parents who will spank, beat, berate, or shame their children more in private for such a public embarrasment will spank, beat, berate, or shame them for _something_ anyway, no matter what it is. They will find a reason (or not) to vent their frustrations when _they_ want to, regardless of the actual or factual situation. People like that are not functioning based on any reasonable level, so please don't try to assign a _reason_ to it.

Most especially, the reason of saying a helpful thing! Or even a seemingly unhelpful, but interventive thing. It doesn't matter. The point is not to make the parent realize the error of thier ways (they won't), but for the child to hear even one tiny voice that what they are experiencing is not OK. It might be the only one they ever hear in their whole childhood.

It's hard to muster the courage to be that voice, especially if we really identify with the child. But to use the subsequent abuse the child may experience as the reason to stay quiet is failing to see the bigger picture.

No one is responsible for the abuse except the abuser. And not giving the child a potential life-changing connection for the sake of theorectically avoiding one beating in a life of many, seems like poor probability-mangement to me.










[/off-topic rant]


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Giving the child validation may be the most life changing experience. SOMEBODY took the time to care. Whether the parents give her heck at home or not they would've whether OP said something or not. The poor child may just remember somebody bothering to care and it could open her world up to realize there really ARE people out there who genuinely care.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Yes! This brings Alice ******'s work to mind. It's been awhile since I've read her, and I couldn't remember if she called them helping witnesses or enlightened witnesses:

Short version

Long version

Both excellent reads, if you have time









Warning: Potentially Offensive


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

its a tough call. My children don't always like the clothes I buy them but we have strict modesty guidelines and a tight budget. The lands end suit may have looked better (no doubt) but those things aren't cheap and far far more than I would ever spend on a childs bathing suit. And I know they are more than what you would spend at peny's. I would have been really upset if someone told my dd "there is something better over there" if there was no way we could afford it. that just makes it that much worse for her because she really believes I am being unreasonable and unfair. and why wouldn't she. some stranger just told her it was so. unless you are willing to buy it for her don't suggest it.

and you don't know exactly why she didn't like it. perhaps she wanted something truely innapropriate and was pitching a fit and benig stubburn because she wasn't getting exactly what she wanted or the $50 suit that her best friend has. That is exactly the sort of fit my dd would throw in such a situation. But my option wouldn't be to make her buy a suit she hated. we would just leave without one if there wasn't one we could agree on. and she just wouldn't be able to swim.

i really hate it when people assume that I am just being mean and insensitive and they don't know my child, the situation, the need, the background information,. the discussion the child and I had before we went shopping, how many options we have exhausted, where this whole mes started or how etc. . . . .granted they could have been more sensitive about parading her around but otherwise I don't see that the parents did anything nessecarily wrong. sounds like she needed a suit and that was one that suited thier needs for whatever reason be it price, modesty, quality, fit whatever.

If you wanted to encourage the child you could have just told her you thought she looked cute in it. then she wouldn't have had to feel like everyone thought it was an ugly suit.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
If you wanted to encourage the child you could have just told her you thought she looked cute in it. then she wouldn't have had to feel like everyone thought it was an ugly suit.

As you say, it's a tough call. I'm lucky in that my mom never made me wear clothes I really hated, so I've never really been in that little girl's situation. But, I _hate_ it when I don't like something I'm trying on, and other people tell me it's cute or looks good or whatever. I don't care what other people think I look like in it...I care what _I_ think I look like in it. I'm the one who has to wear it, after all. I'd never, ever tell someone that they looked good in something they obviously hated. I don't think there is a simple answer, although you make a good point about the cost. I don't know US prices, so I wouldn't have thought of that aspect, but sometimes finances really do limit the available options.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tifnglen*
I would not have stepped in. She was not being hurt. And honestly it was none of your business.

The basic belief behind this statement really really deep down bothers me. A swimsuit is such a personal intimate item. It shows a body in ways other articles of clothing do not in public. The main thing is this girl was pleading to not wear it and was humiliated in walking across a store after even pleading with her mother not to force her to wear it or get it. Humiliation is abuse plain and simple. This girl was humiliated and in such a deeply initmate way there for it was abuse. I know that if people step in the situation may escalte for the child. So is the option when we see abuse not to interviene? NO of course not. Abuse is not acceptable the threat of further abuse is not acceptable. If we are scared to interviene in what we suspect may be abuse than we are sending the message it is okay to abuse. The opposite of love is not hate it is indifference. I think the oringinal poster handled it extremely well. I on the other hand am pretty vocal. I probably would have mentioned she was embarrassed in that swimsuit. Probably not the most helpful thing to do. The poster was respectful of the parents and offered a suggestion to help find something both parent and child could like. No judgement was given. How many people during WWII knew of the the atrociaties and did nothing out of fear? I am not equating the horrors of WWII with the swimsuit incident I am just saying that peoples tendancies not to stand up for basic human dignities due to fear of it becoming worse or fear of confrontation only helps perpetuate the cycle of abuse. I think that the child knowing at least one other person heard her pain might help her realize that her feelings do count. Maybe it gave her a drop more strength. I mean this was a body exposing swimsuit not a dress or pair of pants. There was basic disrespect of the child and is it not okay to humiliate a child even if it is your own and that is what gives me the right to step in. I can not turn a blind eye and then think maybe I could have been the one and possible the only one that could have at least said this is unacceptable.


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## sunshinestarr (Jan 5, 2006)

:


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

I couldn't stand it, so I spoke up. I asked if I could make a suggestion. I suggested they go across the mall to Sears and look at the Land's End Tankini suits, I told them that they would cover her properly, but they look a little younger.
Normally, I think there are a lot of gray areas in parenting and we should mostly leave others alone when their ideas don't mesh with ours but I think you handled it exactly right. You just passed on some info, you didn't criticize anyone. It's just the right amount of "stepping in" I think.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Aira said:

Quote:

Most especially, the reason of saying a helpful thing! Or even a seemingly unhelpful, but interventive thing. It doesn't matter. The point is not to make the parent realize the error of thier ways (they won't), but for the child to hear even one tiny voice that what they are experiencing is not OK. It might be the only one they ever hear in their whole childhood.

It's hard to muster the courage to be that voice, especially if we really identify with the child. But to use the subsequent abuse the child may experience as the reason is failing the see the bigger picture.

No one is responsible for the abuse except the abuser. And not giving the child a potential life-changing connection for the sake of theorectically avoiding one beating in a life of many, seems like poor probability-mangement to me.
I completely agree with that statement Aira, you hit the nail on the head there!!!

Furthermore, comparisons to people making comments on nursing toddlers in public are completely different. I agree with the previous poster, if a child was begging and pleading not to nurse and crying and the mama was forcing him/her on the breast despite repeated protests and clear embarrassment on the child's end, it may compare slightly.

I watch very little TV (thank God lol) but it puts me in mind of this news program (20/20 Dateline, something) where they had actors stage a domestic dispute in a park where a man was belittling and yelling and shaming his girlfriend/wife -- and how many people just walked on by with the "it's none of my business" attitude but for the few brave and kind souls who stepped in and actually gave a voice to the person being mistreated.

I think the op did a fantastic job and I applaud her for her efforts. Agreeing with Aira again, I don't think it did a damn thing to change the parents but if it put a tiny seed in that girl that someone out there, a stranger no less, believes that she was being mistreated/embarrassed/not heard...and had ovaries to speak up about it, in a composed, non judgemental way even, then she did her job as a fellow human. If the child didn't even notice, but the OP's child took notice and will speak up for someone who is being mistreated in the future, she did her job as a fellow human.

It becomes a sad world when people decide to just turn their heads and judge what is hurtful or not despite obvious clues -- it sure seemed hurtful to the little girl in the store, and the OP went from there. I applaud her.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
If you wanted to encourage the child you could have just told her you thought she looked cute in it. then she wouldn't have had to feel like everyone thought it was an ugly suit.

But the OP said it looked awful on her. IMO, it is wrong to lie. I would never make my children wear something they did not like. I have let them wear clothes that I, personally, thought were extremely ugly, but they loved them. ie-The bright orange skirt that twirls when you spin, with the bright neon pink fuzzy shirt that "feels, oh, so soft, mom!" and the blue sparkly hat.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I don't think you were necessarily wrong to step in, but I wouldn't have. I would also not leap to the conclusion that the girl was being punished for something. Since you mention that it was an "old lady" swimsuit (which I assume means full coverage), I would probably guess that they have some religious objection to conventional swimsuits. Not necessarily, but I would consider that a more likely explanation than that they just wanted to make the little girl suffer. My 6 yr old dd wears an "old lady" swimsuit (like a spandex suit type thing with a skirted bottom) and so did I when I used to swim.

I know that some people consider modesty to be abusive, but I think it's unfair to assume that it's punitive. And as Lilyka said, you don't know if maybe she was upset because she wanted an expensive suit or an inappropriate suit or what. I know that when I was a kid I would beg my mom not to make me wear the cheap, out-of-fashion clothes from Target when I wanted the "cool" stuff that the other kids wore. Yes, the parents could have done better by empathizing with her, saying something like, "yes, I understand that you want the $50 designer suit like your friend has, but we don't have the money for that (or it's not modest enough, or whatever)." But maybe they had already explaned it, talked about it, etc. 30 times that day, and they were just frustrated at that point. Flawed, yes, but understandable, and not abusive.

If it were actual abuse, I would absolutely step in, however. Children are people, not property, so mistreating them is *not* a "private matter" or a "personal choice" or "nobody else's business."


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## LoupdelaTerre (May 17, 2006)

To the OP - I think you handled it really well. I would have done the same thing.

Humiliation is abuse. And yes, there are all sorts of little things behind the scenes that we never see. But when you see it happening, and you don't do anything when you could have -- even a smile and nod at the child. Why not take the moment to "bother" with it. We're not a society of hermits. We don't exist in a vacuum. Maybe we should try lending an ear or a hand every once in awhile. Done correctly, it won't hurt.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

And also, I'm not trying to be controversial, but I was offended by that article. Abuse survivors are demonized and excluded from public discourse enough. People have free will--if they commit evil acts, it's because they choose to. And there are plenty of people who were never abused themselves, but who make the choice to abuse others.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Brigianna, thanks for your input. I don't disagree with you. I will put a disclaimer in my post.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Brigianna, thanks for your input. I don't disagree with you. I will put a disclaimer in my post.

Thank you.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Omg, Aira, your post had me in tears by the end. I'm sure it's something I will remember for a very long time. Thanks for sharing those words.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

(bolding is mine)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I would probably guess that they have some *religious objection* to conventional swimsuits. Not necessarily, but I would consider that a more likely explanation than that they just wanted to make the little girl suffer. My 6 yr old dd wears an "old lady" swimsuit (like a spandex suit type thing with a skirted bottom) and so did I when I used to swim.

I know that some people consider *modesty* to be abusive, but I think it's unfair to assume that it's punitive.

But! She was made to PARADE across the store in nothing but a swimsuit! *I* would be embarrassed to do that and I am NOT religious OR modest (oops







)

And it's not like she was asking to buy a skimpy suit, she was asking NOT to buy that particular one. She might very well be more content never having a bathing suit and not going to swim party rather than being seen in this particular one.

I liked OP's responce and learned from it too. I might have been way less quick on my feet to 1) say anything at all other than







2) to say something nearly as refined as OP


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I watch very little TV (thank God lol) but it puts me in mind of this news program (20/20 Dateline, something) where they had actors stage a domestic dispute in a park where a man was belittling and yelling and shaming his girlfriend/wife -- and how many people just walked on by with the "it's none of my business" attitude but for the few brave and kind souls who stepped in and actually gave a voice to the person being mistreated.

This really has nothing to do with the little girl in the OP, but I really have to say something about this. I know three different people who have, at different times, tried to step in between an abusive man and his girlfriend/wife. One of them was hit in the head with a high-heeled shoe when he turned his back on the girl to face the guy. One of them was kicked in the balls from behind when he turned his back on the girl to face the guy. The other got off without any physical assaults...she was merely called every nasty name in the book, and had death threats thrown at her - by the girlfriend. So...honestly...unless it looked as though the guy was actually going to beat her in front of me, I wouldn't even think of stepping in between a woman and her SO.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Brigianna
I know that some people consider modesty to be abusive said:


> I for one do not concider modesty abusive. In our family we have religious standards in sinc with what we believe one being that it is inappropiate to be wearing 2 piece suits. There is a difference here the child was pleading to get something different and the op stated that it was the type 60 year old women wear. There is a difference in the suits that cover and have bullet boob bras in them and huge wide straps the kind my grandmother worn and one piece that covers and offers modesty. I find it bit abrasive that it is assumed she is looking for a "designer suit" But what the actually suit looked like is not the issue the issue is the child's pleadings and obvious humiliation by what she was wearing. To me when it is as intimate as a swim suit it is the same as making a boy get in a dress and having to go walk to his father across the store to see if it would look good on his sister who is about the same size, all the while pleading not to have to do that. Humilation is humilation and to humilate is to abuse. It rips my heart to know that child was pleading and humilated and it fell on deaf uncaring ears. That the father's need to control the decision for whatever reasons, took precident over his child's pleadings and obvious humiliation and that is okay with some is disturbing. If this was a wife who was dependant on her dh for support, pleading to get another suit, but he liked the one she had on, we would see it in a whole different light. I don't know the reasons behind it I only know what was seen and that is what was wrong. I feel it is up to those who witness such things to give voice to those who don't have a voice. Sometimes if only to give courage and validation to those who are abused.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Well, I wasn't necessarily suggesting that she *was* wanting to buy a designer suit or whatever, just that there were more benign explanations for the parents' behavior than what some others were suggesting, that they were trying to punish her for something.

Now it is true that there are different standards, but in my experience, unless you want to spend big $$, the only way to get a swimsuit that covers in a way that we consider appropriate in our family, is an "old lady" swimsuit. *Personally* I would not wear, or dress my dd in, even a regular 1-piece because that still exposes the upper legs. So we go for the ones with a skirt or shorts on the bottom, which generally means "old lady look."

Anyway, my only point was that we don't know the whole story. Maybe the parents really were uncaring, or punishing her, or deliberately humiliating her, but I don't think, based on the info provided, that that is the only obvious conclusion. It's possible, but it's also possible that the girl was whining because she wanted some inappropriate (by price or appearance or whatever else) suit, and they had already explained many times why she couldn't have the one she wanted, and by this point they were just frustrated. It just seemed like people were leaping to the worst possible conclusions, things I never would have thought of (I've never even heard of punishing a child by making her wear unattractive clothes).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama8*
If this was a wife who was dependant on her dh for support, pleading to get another suit, but he liked the one she had on, we would see it in a whole different light.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't consider him wrong to refuse to spend money on something like that. It would be a nice guy thing to do, but not his duty, I don't think.

Also, in my own opinion, I don't think intervening in a fight between two adults is at all the same thing as intervening in a child abuse situation. Adults have legal rights. They have options. They can stand up for themselves. If a man is standing in a public place yelling at his girlfriend, it's because she's choosing to stand there and fight with him (it takes two to fight, as the saying goes). A defenseless child has no rights and no options. So to me, it's a totally different situation--I would intervene for the child, but let the adults work it out themselves.


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## CrunchyKat (Mar 20, 2006)

wow, a lot of posts and I wasn't able to read them all, but I did want to put in my 2 cents...

I'm VERY glad that you said something. I think what you said was not rude or intrusive. You were giving a suggestion. I hope they took it to heart, and went over there to check them out. I feel so horrible for the little girl that was forced to wear that swimsuit that obviously made her EXTREMELY uncomfortable.

If that is not being harmed or hurt, then what is?? It's clearly a case of being hurt emotionally, which is no less important as being hurt physically, IMO.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I wanted to address the idea that the intervention would cause the child more pain from the subsequent punishment...

I see it differently. Let me first say that I was also one of those kids who would've gotten the beating of a lifetime for making a srtanger take notice. So I'm not speaking theory here.

Parents who will spank, beat, berate, or shame their children more in private for such a public embarrasment will spank, beat, berate, or shame them for _something_ anyway, no matter what it is. They will find a reason (or not) to vent their frustrations when _they_ want to, regardless of the actual or factual situation. People like that are not functioning based on any reasonable level, so please don't try to assign a _reason_ to it.

Most especially, the reason of saying a helpful thing! Or even a seemingly unhelpful, but interventive thing. It doesn't matter. The point is not to make the parent realize the error of thier ways (they won't), but for the child to hear even one tiny voice that what they are experiencing is not OK. It might be the only one they ever hear in their whole childhood.

It's hard to muster the courage to be that voice, especially if we really identify with the child. But to use the subsequent abuse the child may experience as the reason is failing the see the bigger picture.

No one is responsible for the abuse except the abuser. And not giving the child a potential life-changing connection for the sake of theorectically avoiding one beating in a life of many, seems like poor probability-mangement to me.










[/off-topic rant]

I agree with the spirit of this post completely. To the OP -- You handled it with grace and came up with a creative way to try and diffuse the situation. Could the child have been taken home after that and berated for causing such a "scene" with a bystander? Well, yes. But like this poster said, an abusive, control freak (which is SOUNDS like the dad was) will find any and every reason to yell, hit, or scream at the kid. My dad didn't ever touch me but man he could emotionally be abusing from time to time. I would have been very happy to hear an adult make a nice comment to me had I been in that young girl's shoes.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Well, I wasn't necessarily suggesting that she *was* wanting to buy a designer suit or whatever, just that there were more benign explanations for the parents' behavior than what some others were suggesting, that they were trying to punish her for something.

I just don't see where anyone said that getting the frumpy suit was _punishment._









We are perceiveing the act of humiliating the child - both what was witness in the store and needs no backstory to qualify, and the certain future humiliation of actually wearing a swimsuit that causes her embarrassment - as degrading and abusive.

---

Just to qualify, my post before was addressing the ideas presented that the OP could have caused a worse scenario for the girl by her actions. It was not directly speaking to the situation in the OP - just to those espouing that idea.

I personally don't think there is enough evidence of physical abuse to assume that she would get a beating. I guess it's rather certain she will be shamed - it seems her parents' modus operanti.









---

Deva,


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## CrunchyKat (Mar 20, 2006)

It's not that act of getting a frumpy suit that was punishment, it's the fact that the young girl is being forced to wear it, in public, when she feels uncomfortable in it.

I also agree that there is no way to tell if she will "get a beating" when she gets home. Obviously, we hope nothing like that will happen, and nine times out of ten, it won't. But I also don't think that is what the OP was trying to make us believe was going to happen either. I think she stepped in, rightfully so, because she felt compassion for the girl and that she was so humiliated wearing that frumpy bathing suit.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I just don't see where anyone said that getting the frumpy suit was _punishment._









I was scanning kind of fast, but it seems to me that a couple of people mentioned that the parents were deliberately making the girl wear a "frumpy" swimsuit to punish her, or that they were probably also beating her or abusing her in some other way.

I mean, I have been that parent. I try to be nice and gentle and non-coercive, but there have been days when I have just said, "this is what we're doing, this is what we're getting, and we're going home right now!" *Especially* buying clothing. And this was usually after I'd spent the whole day being nice and gentle and explaining and empathizing... I was wrong of course. I should have handled it better. But I would hate to think that people would assume that I was punishing my kids or was going to beat them on the way home, or whatever. It just seemed to me that people were leaping to the worst possible conclusions.

We don't know that they were *deliberately* humiliating the child, or that they used that as punishment. It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that the swimsuit issue is a huge item of contention in that household, they'd been around and around it for days, and they were just tired and stressed and wanted to get it over with.

Also, and I am really hesitant to bring this up, but if they were in fact insisting on a "frumpy" suit for religious or moral reasons, they were probably particularly sensitive to criticism on that basis, given the mainstream cultural perception that modesty is a sign of, if not a form of, child abuse.

I'm not saying they weren't wrong in their handling of the issue. They were. But we don't know whether it was a one-time wrong, or part of a pattern of abuse, control, and humiliation. So why assume the worst?


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## CrunchyKat (Mar 20, 2006)

I partially agree. I don't think anyone should assume the worst, like the fact that she "may" be beaten?! That thought NEVER ran through my mind. At the same time, I do think what they did humiliated their child and could be a sign of emotional abuse. I'm glad the OP stepped in, I probably would have too!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Also, and I am really hesitant to bring this up, but if they were in fact insisting on a "frumpy" suit for religious or moral reasons, they were probably particularly sensitive to criticism on that basis, given the mainstream cultural perception that modesty is a sign of, if not a form of, child abuse.

I'm not saying they weren't wrong in their handling of the issue. They were. But we don't know whether it was a one-time wrong, or part of a pattern of abuse, control, and humiliation. So why assume the worst?

Brigianna, I do agree with these two points in your post (on a personal note, I don't think that modesty is _necessarily_ abusive at all, I'm pretty modest myself for various non-religious reasons; but the presentation of 'enforcing' modesty to a child *can* be abusive, depending on how the parents do it. That's not the point of my post though, so I'll get back on topic)...In addressing the OP's reaction and what the OP said, I still think it was appropriate...she didn't insult the parents, offered a gentle, viable suggestion of another modest alternative, and just by her voice probably gave that little girl a bit of a boost knowing that someone was hearing her that day.

I don't think any of the "backstory" needs to be considered in this situation, because the OP's response was just a friendly suggestion of an alternative, NOT a comment on the parents' parenting skills, and not even a comment on how sad the little girl looked, for that matter.

An inappropriate response could have been anything like,


> 'how can you do that to her, she's obviously humiliated'
> 'c'mon, can't you see how much she hates that thing?'
> 'I'd NEVER force my child to wear a suit like that.'
> 'aw sweetie, I'm so sorry your parents are doing that to you.'


Or something where the parent's judgement or the child's humiliation were directly addressed...but the OP saying, 'hey, you know there's another place that has modest suits that are a little more age appropriate' to me is just like the woman in line behind me at Sears, who seeing me kind of scrutinizing a sweater I didn't _really_ like, but was as close as I could find and needed to have for a wedding that weekend, said, "you know, I saw ones without the beads over at Old Navy.". I could have kissed her, the ones at Old Navy were perfect. I keep coming back to the thoughts mentioned that it's sad when people can't even talk to each other about things in line at the store anymore....and that there are ways to defuse situations that are not judgemental and can give a child a voice and feelign of support. I still think the OP did the right thing, without knowing a lick of the back story. Not because she said something necessarily, but because of *what* she said.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I mean, I have been that parent. I try to be nice and gentle and non-coercive, but there have been days when I have just said, "this is what we're doing, this is what we're getting, and we're going home right now!" *Especially* buying clothing. And this was usually after I'd spent the whole day being nice and gentle and explaining and empathizing... I was wrong of course. I should have handled it better. But I would hate to think that people would assume that I was punishing my kids or was going to beat them on the way home, or whatever. It just seemed to me that people were leaping to the worst possible conclusions.

So why assume the worst?









:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I just keep coming back to the thought that if modesty was their aim, why did the parents insist that the daughter (despite her protests and begging and obvious embarrassment) parade halfway across the store in front of other people to show the father the suit? That leads me to believe it wasn't a modesty issue, but I could be wrong I suppose.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I just keep coming back to the thought that if modesty was their aim, why did the parents insist that the daughter (despite her protests and begging and obvious embarrassment) parade halfway across the store in front of other people to show the father the suit? That leads me to believe it wasn't a modesty issue, but I could be wrong I suppose.

I think the issue is it's the suit that's modest, covering parts that they want covered, that's the modesty issue....not that anyone in public sees her in the suit. Two different things, as far as I can tell. If they didn't want her seen in a swimsuit at all, they probably wouldn't be buying one for her in the first place.

Not commenting on any other aspect of the situation, just I can see the separate-ness of the modesty of the suit itself, versus modesty in walking around in public.

Does that make sense?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah I totally get you, but with my experience with modesty (and I admit, not from my own life lol) ... it is a modesty issue to be wearing something in a place not designed for wearing it... knwim? For instance, it would not be considered immodest to wear your pajamas around the house, but people who are modest may consider it not modest to go out and get the paper in your pajamas down the driveway. I was putting it in that frame of mind. In other words, a modest swimsuit in a place where everyone else is in swimsuits (beach, pool etc) would be modest, but I would think people who are very modest would not be okay with their daughter parading across a large department store in a bathing suit when others were fully clothed.

That was where I was coming from... but that is based on very religious/modest people I've known in the past.

Regardless, no one should have to beg not to wear something imo. No one should have to feel so powerless and embarrassed and reduced to begging the way that girl apparently was. It's sad.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

captain crunchy...I see your point, too. Hadn't thought of it in that frame of reference.

and ITA with this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Regardless, no one should have to beg not to wear something imo. No one should have to feel so powerless and embarrassed and reduced to begging the way that girl apparently was. It's sad.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*

I wouldn't. I wouldn't consider him wrong to refuse to spend money on something like that. It would be a nice guy thing to do, but not his duty, I don't think.

Also, in my own opinion, I don't think intervening in a fight between two adults is at all the same thing as intervening in a child abuse situation. Adults have legal rights. They have options. They can stand up for themselves. If a man is standing in a public place yelling at his girlfriend, it's because she's choosing to stand there and fight with him (it takes two to fight, as the saying goes). A defenseless child has no rights and no options. So to me, it's a totally different situation--I would intervene for the child, but let the adults work it out themselves.

My issue is with the pleading and the obviouse lack of power the wife would have in that situation. In a marriage where one stays home to raise the children so the other can work to bring in dollars. Then it is both of their incomes and it is not completely his decision to "refuse" the wife. That aside, it is the obvious humiliation that is going on that I have issue with. I have stepped in between a man and his girlfriend/wife because there are times when the power balance shifts so much that it becomes abuse.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I just don't see why it matters whether the parents humiliated her on-purpose or not.

The outcome is the same. The little girl is humiliated - _and told them so repeatedly._ At a minimum they just didn't care.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama8*
My issue is with the pleading and the obviouse lack of power the wife would have in that situation. In a marriage where one stays home to raise the children so the other can work to bring in dollars. Then it is both of their incomes and it is not completely his decision to "refuse" the wife. That aside, it is the obvious humiliation that is going on that I have issue with. I have stepped in between a man and his girlfriend/wife because there are times when the power balance shifts so much that it becomes abuse.

This is off topic, but personally, in my own opinion, I would regard a spouse situation, or really any dispute between adults, as a private matter that is none of my business. I do understand your point about his income being both of their incomes so they should both have a say, and that is how it works in our family, but I wouldn't say that a couple who have a different arrangement are wrong.

I honestly don't think it's comparable to a child abuse situation at all. To me the difference is legal rights. An adult always has the right to leave, to make other arrangements, and to have recourse if her rights are being violated. Even between spouses, there is always the option of separation or divorce. Now, plenty of people don't believe in divorce--I don't. I would certainly never divorce my dh for refusing to buy me new clothes. But I have the legal right to do so. A child has *no* legal rights with regards to his parents, not even the most basic right to be free from physical violence. A child can't leave or divorce his parents if they mistreat him. So to me that is the fundamental difference.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I just don't see why it matters whether the parents humiliated her on-purpose or not.

The outcome is the same. The little girl is humiliated - _and told them so repeatedly._ At a minimum they just didn't care.

Well, it doesn't matter as far as outcome. They were certainly wrong in their treatment of the girl. Even if, for whatever reason, they regarded it as absolutely non-negotiable that they get that particular swimsuit, they could have been a lot nicer about it. I just don't think it's fair to assume all these other things about their parenting (the swimsuit was punishment, they regularly humiliate her on purpose, they probably beat her, etc.).

And maybe they did care. Maybe she'd been whining all day (or all week, or all month) about how she wanted some particular swimsuit, and they'd gently, reasonably explaned over and over again why she couldn't have that one, and by that time they were just worn out.

I'm sure that some people have probably seen me in the store and thought I was demon-mommy for firmly saying, "no, we are not buying that" to a whining, crying child. What they wouldn't have known was that we were in about the 40th round of discussion about that. But still, I was wrong. And those parents that Nextcommercial saw were wrong. But I don't think it's *necessarily* part of a larger pattern of abuse and humiliation.


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## CrunchyKat (Mar 20, 2006)

Well I see your point, but I think we'de have to be there. It all depends upon the tones of the voices, their body language, etc. But I'm pretty sure that if the OP felt the need to step in, she was probably pretty darn sure that they were humiliating her, not just that they couldn't afford the swimsuit or something.


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

ive had my dad humiliate me more than once. he still does and im 20 and have a child of my own. if someone would have stepped in i would have been so grateful. but he would have taken it out on me later for "making him look bad" thats just how he is. but im sure that little girl was grateful that someone stuck up for her...


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Think a point that is being missed here is that they weren't refusing to buy her a suit as far as we know but forcing her to wear something that she felt ashamed to wear and then forcing her to parade across the store in public in it. So she wasn't whining to get something but pleading not to be made to do something she felt ashamed and humiliated in doing.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

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## K&JsMaMa (May 26, 2002)

I think you handled it exceptionally well. I would have said "something" but maybe not nearly as well as you put it.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama8*
Think a point that is being missed here is that they weren't refusing to buy her a suit as far as we know but forcing her to wear something that she felt ashamed to wear and then forcing her to parade across the store in public in it. So she wasn't whining to get something but pleading not to be made to do something she felt ashamed and humiliated in doing.

That is true. Although we don't really know whether she was ashamed or humiliated, just that she didn't want to do it. And still, we don't know what had been explained to her in advance, or anything. But they *definitely* shouldn't have made her wear something she didn't want to wear.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I just don't see it as such a big leap. People don't *not want to do something* and plead, beg, or carry on unless they feel a strong aversion to the action.

Whatever you want to call that feeling - shame, humiliation, "her unhappy place", a rose - it's the same.

That level of semantical detail is irrelevant to that child, and therefore IMO this discussion.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, I just don't see it as such a big leap. People don't *not want to do something* and plead, beg, or carry on unless they feel a strong aversion to the action.

Whatever you want to call that feeling - shame, humiliation, "her unhappy place", a rose - it's the same.

That level of semantical detail is irrelevant to that child, and therefore IMO this discussion.

I agree, it's irrelevant to the child, but not to the parents' intent, which is the only thing I was meaning to address. But, yes, the child is wronged either way.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, I refer to what I said before...

At a minimum, they just didn't care. They _forced her to do something that she pleaded not to do._ That's enough intent in my book.

If we're looking for some line between typical authoritarian parenting and, say, sadism... Then I guess the distiction is important.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, I refer to what I said before...

At a minimum, they just didn't care. They _forced her to do something that she pleaded not to do._ That's enough intent in my book.

If we're looking for some line between typical authoritarian parenting and, say, sadism... Then I guess the distiction is important.









I completely agree. Intent, we know what they say about the road to hell and what paves it right?
















I don't think there was much speculation on the OP's end truthfully. It is one thing to have the child say "mooo ooooom, I don't like this one, can we look more?" or whatever. It is quite another to like, be begging and pleading and practically in tears while someone is forcing you to do something you are not okay with.

I mean, not to play Monday quarterback or anything but there were like 3204973209437240 reactions the parents could have had that would have been okay in my book -- maybe not things I would have done, but far better than humiliating their daughter and making her beg and plead.


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
Well, I refer to what I said before...

At a minimum, they just didn't care. They _forced her to do something that she pleaded not to do._ That's enough intent in my book.

If we're looking for some line between typical authoritarian parenting and, say, sadism... Then I guess the distiction is important.

















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