# Manipulation...am I missing something?



## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Occasionally I read a post on MDC in which the poster refers to manipulating their child into doing certain things. Usually they say something like they don't want to manipulate their children.

I'll use my own childhood as an example. My parents didn't spank or yell. They said you must do your chores before you can play. You need to do the dishes before you can watch tv, an so on.

This really worked for us and we had a really peaceful childhood.

This is what some posters are referring to as manipulation.

Am I missing something? I never felt manipulated. I always felt like, ok, this is the way our family gets things done.

What is wrong with this style of parenting?


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

I'm probably not representative here, but I wouldn't call that manipulation, I would call it an exercise of parental authority. Manipulation, imo, involves some kind of attempt to change another person's will, or play on their needs to get what you want. Ex. "I don't prefer that you send your child to school, I just think you'll want a break." (trying to convince someone that what I want for you is what you really want for yourself) or "I don't like people who don't clean up their rooms." (attaching your need for approval to what I want you to do).

In your examples, you set it out straightforwardly, without any emotional content. I personally don't have any disagreement with this, though I might limit it to certain situations, because I do think it's important for children to have some choice, even if the choices they make aren't always best for everyone.

There's a contingent here who practice consensual living, which someone else could explain better than I can. A big part of it is natural consequences, rather than arbitrary consequences made up by whoever is biggest. So maybe an example would be if you don't do the dishes, you don't get breakfast the next day because the dishes are all dirty. I find this approach very limited, but I do try to make things logical, as in, if you hit people, you get a time out because no one wants to be around a person who hits. Some people here at mdc are very against time outs, though, so . . . .


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## birdie22 (Apr 1, 2005)

The two examples you cite are really the same issue: chores should be done at a certain time, and then you can have fun. I don't think there's anything wrong with that... it certainly is a value many of us hold, it's an efficient way to get things done, and it feels really good to have work done with so that we can play. You want to teach your children that value, and that's awesome. I don't find it to be manipulative in the way you have framed it.

I'm not a CL'er or even a consistent UP'er, but I would have no problem saying, "it's time to wash dishes now. TV will have to wait until you're done." It's just logical... you can't do both at once, and the dishes need to be done now, so TV will be later. (Whether the dishes really need to be done at a given moment relates back to what I said above; I personally think that's a legitimate value to teach. I'm sure some will disagree.)

I would think something more manipulative would be attaching an unrelated consequence (punishment) or bribe (reward) to the task. As in, "if you don't wash the dishes, you can't go to the party on Saturday" or "if you wash the dishes, you can have cookies for breakfast." I mean, the idea of discipline is that the child learns the value of positive behavior in and of itself, without requiring constant prodding with a carrot or stick, right?

I just thought of another example: say (hypothetically







) that a 3 yo was kicking the back of the car seat and annoying/distracting Mom who was driving. She reaches back and slips off his shoes, thinking "Now the kicking won't bother me." Dad, in the passenger seat, is impressed with this strategy. Later that day, 3yo is annoying his dad by making loud noise in the back seat. Dad says "if you don't quiet down, I'm going to take your shoes off!"







The two scenarios might appear very similar in terms of what actually took place, but they were polar opposites from a discipline standpoint.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

I'll use my own childhood as an example. My parents didn't spank or yell. They said you must do your chores before you can play. You need to do the dishes before you can watch tv, an so on.
I personally dont see anything wrong with that. I will often ask my son to do A before B - just as I would do A before B or request of my DH to do A before B, etc...

However, some children wont or dont want to do A before B. Its the attitude that 'why should I?' and 'what you gonna do about it if I dont?'. ...

Its all well and good of me to ask my son to do A before B (hes only 3! lol) but maybe he doesnt want to or maybe he does something else, etc. No big deal in our house. Our house is pretty harmonious - we try and live consensually. If I usually ask my son to do something he usually does it - and if he asks me to do something for him, I usually do it too.

But the issue could be if you make things conditional. ...manipulation is usually invovled in that case. Its not conditional of me to request something of my son. But it would be if I held a threat over that. Do A before be 'or else'... If you dont do A before B then ... Thats a 'do to' attitude and it is manipulative and not something we do in our house. If I really want DS to do something and he doesnt want to, then we work arond that to come to consensual ground. For example, Maybe id like him to pick up his toys before he goes outside to play and maybe he doesnt want to...so maybe the consensual solution we come up with is us both together tidying up the toys that way the job gets done and we are both happy about it in the end! This happned yesterday! lol...
DS: Outside!
Me: Can you pick up your blocks first please?
DS: No! - I dont want to! - Outside!
Me: Okay, How about I help you tidy them up? (its me that wants them tidied up anyhow in the first place...want something done, do it yourself! lol) - So I get down on the floor and start picking them up...
DS: Okay! - So he gets down and starts helping me.

It would have been manipulation though if I would have said 'Pick them up now or you cant go outside' or 'Okay, ill pick them up but then you cant go out side for the rest of the day', etc. Or even, 'If you pick your blocks up now I will give you a chocolate bar!'

The reason why I dont want to manipulate my son is for a lot of reasons. Mostly I want there to be respect in our relationship and I dont feel there can be respect there if I use coercion or force or manipulation of any kind to get him to do things I want him to do. I also want him to do the right thing for the right reason - not because hes afraid or trying to avoid something happening to him, etc. If he picks up his toys because hes afraid of what I might do to him (refuse to let him outside to play, etc) then hes picking up his toys for the wrong reason - he would only be thinking of himself and his own benefit then. Over time, DS will learn that I like the toys picked up when we are done playing with them so no one trips over them and so that we can help keep the house looking nice and keep it clean and tidy. Some times this may be more important than others - and he will learn this as well. He will also learn that its just nice and helpful to help others out. He will learn this without me manipulating him. If I were to manipulate him he would learn 'how can I gain from my actions' (be it avoiding a concequence or after something) - he would learn how to be selfish.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

I have no problem with "work before pleasure" or "first things first." Those types of expectations are part of the routine and reality of the day for everyone. I have my reasons, which I share with ds. As his parent I can forsee situations that he may not. For example if he wants to pull out all of his art supplies that's fine, he just has to clean up the trains first. I remind him that having too much stuff out makes the house feel cramped and chaotic, and leaves too much to do before bed when he is feeling the least cooperative. It's really just the rhythm of the day more than it is discipline.


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## ShadowLark (Aug 8, 2008)

To ann of loxley - (love the name, btw!) - I guess I'm completely polar opposite to you. I see offering a choice to NOT clean up, and then insisting it be done but with help, as more manipulative than just stating the rule because that's how the household is run.
And PLEASE don't misunderstand - I don't mean to say that YOU are being manipulative. But if I said "can we do X", I would mean "do you WANT to do X". And if the answer is no, then it's certainly not fair for me to turn around and say "well, it's getting done whether you like it or not, I'm just helping".
For me, the choice would be phrased as "We have to clean up before we go outside. Would you like to do it yourself or have me help you?". That way, it's still consensual, because the kid decides whether or not to help with the work I want done.
Does that make sense? And ftr, this is still theory on my part - my son is just two, but he's pretty cooperative about things like cleaning up with me.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

For me, the choice would be phrased as "We have to clean up before we go outside. Would you like to do it yourself or have me help you?". That way, it's still consensual, because the kid decides whether or not to help with the work I want done.
See now...I actually find that manipulative lol...I phrase it the way I do because its usually something that _I myself_ desire.

Quote:

I see offering a choice to NOT clean up, and then insisting it be done but with help, as more manipulative than just stating the rule because that's how the household is run.
I would never _insist_ it be done but as I wanted it done in the first place, if DS didnt
want to help/do it, then I would just have to carry on and do it myself (like I have to do with most thing when it comes to this house - espeically concerning DH







lol) My son really has no obligation to help (if he really didnt want to help or pick up his blocks at all in any way he would just carry trotting off outside and I dont think id care in the slightest lol)...I ask if he wants to (can you pick up your blocks?), I ask if he wants to do it a different way than originally proposed (you want me to help?) and if he still doesnt want to do it - then I just get on with it as its _me_ that wants it done (pick them up alone regardless - he may jump in and help then...monkey see moneky do - but that wasnt my plan - it just tends to happen that way as he wants to do what I am doing but I dont set out to use that trait to manipulate him - I guess I could see how this could be viewed as manipulative if I set out to use his good nature against him for my own personal gain.). If I really wanted him to do it or to help though, then I would phrase it in a matter of fact way (as I really do when I just really need him to do something) as in 'Help me pick up your blocks' or 'I need you to pick up your blocks now please'.

I find your example manipulative because it gives false choice. It says 'this is going to get done, you can do it this way or that way'....it gives a false sense of choice in my eyes. Its like me saying 'Right - its bedtime!'...(ds not wanting to go to bed)...so I say 'Would you like me to read you the book about the cat or the book about the dragon?'.... Its a false choise because it means either way he is going to bed but I make it look like hes got that freedom of choice by giving him the option of which bedtime story he would like me to read to him. As an adult I may find this consensual because I know better lol (and because I know better, I can really make a consensual choice about it)...But a small child may not pick up on the subltness of it and be lured into doing something they didnt really want to do.

Makes perfect sense and I am not saying I dont sometimes do that (







lol)...but I try not to because it is manipulative.

Not an attack at you!...Had to add that as moderators are after me







lol...But this is certainly a very interresting topic! Its nice to get the different perspectives.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

There is nothing wrong. You are giving the child a choice, which is what I often do.

An example of this is that you say that either he can clean his room and then go out to play: or, he doesn't clean his room and has to stay inside. This way, you are giving the child the autonomy and the leadway to make his own choices. This is very healthy in my book. You are not only building a sense of self worth and the ability to make decisions in the child: but, you are teaching him about responsibility and obligations--before you go and do this, this must be done.

no matter how you parent, there wil always be people who will disagree. Just be polite and then continue to do things your way. Keep up the good work.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

OP here. I really appreciate all of your replies.
Ann of Loxley said, "It would have been manipulation though if I would have said 'Pick them up now or you cant go outside'"

This is what I am referring to when I ask am I missing something. I know that I need to give my dd, who is only 11 mths BTW, choices.

I am having a hard time expressing my thoughts...please bare with me.

I feel responsible for the development of her character. I want her to be responsible, somewhat organized if possible, caring of others in the house, respectful with her things and others' things.

I also don't plan to yell, spank, or even use time outs (I think) that much. I like the time in thing, but this is all still theory to me. However, I have no problem withholding a desired object or play time in order to help her to develop her character and her organizational skills. But this is what I am hearing is manipulative. I really don't get it.

I'm thinking that this is a CL approach to not do anything that coerces or manipulates. Hey, I just figured out my problem! I don't like that word 'manipulation'. Let me look it up.
Okay...it has a both a negative and a positive connotation. Chiropractors manipulate the bones in order to heal us. I like that!

Anyway, I think it's my job as a parent to help develop her character and I can't figure out how I am going to teach her to be responsible without some kind of *manipulation* for lack of a better word.

To all the CL parents, please don't think I am picking on you. I really do want to understand this thing about manipulation. Maybe I just view it as discipline/teaching rather than manipulation.

To Waldorf: Thanks for the encouragement!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm not a huge CLer so with that disclaimer out of the way...

... my position is, what's going on underneath?

For example, when I say boots need to be on before we go out in the snow or else our feet will be cold, I'm more or less stating a fact. This can be tested by my son if I decide to let him see how his socks get wet and his feet get cold. So I don't see that as manipulation.

However, when I say "Chores need to be done before play," then I'm kind of making a value statement about the order in which I would like them done. Do I think this is a good value? Well yah, pretty much. Do I prefer that my home operate this way? Yes.

Is it some kind of natural law? No, actually, it isn't. It's easier (kids get tired and then cranky about chores) but the fact pretty much is that if the garbage is picked up at 7 am, putting it out at 9 pm because I like to have it done does not change that putting it out at 6:59 am will actually have the same result - it gets picked up by the truck.*

So yes I think there is a kind of manipulation in the second situation in that I am trying to create a rhythm that is not strictly consequence based. It really is about my preferences and I really am trying to make people conform to that. If I make a rule about chores before play, it's a little more arbitrary than "chores need to be done today."

So that off my chest how do I (again, non-CL) handle this? Right now it's easy. I do say "let's do chores before play."

If we get into a power struggle about it then I personally tend to drop it, because it's really just a preference and not actually worth it to me to spend my time and energy fighting it. It would feel artificial to me. My son is only 3 so this means his chores (like putting his cup in the sink) are not always done on time or at all.

In the future when he's older, I think I would talk it out more, like "bedtime in 20 minutes and chores were put off, so time to do them" or "yesterday you played first and the chores did not end up done. That upset me. What do you think is a good plan for changing this?"

And of course most importantly I model this myself. I believe that's where most of the learning comes from, esp. at this age.

ETA: * of course there's the risk that you'll miss it. But it's funny. I work with people who work early, and people who work to deadline, and although the people who work to deadline risk missing it a bit more (sometimes), I also appreciate how their approach helps them build a whole different set of skills in last-minute-greatness and stick-to-it-iveness-in-the-face-of-panic. It really does take all kinds.









ETA II: I guess what I'm saying is that I don't find it manipulative when I am problem-solving a REAL problem openly. But when I'm just laying out "how this problem should be solved," then I do. Hope that is a good summary. This post got really long sorry!


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
<snip>

The reason why I dont want to manipulate my son is for a lot of reasons. Mostly I want there to be respect in our relationship and I dont feel there can be respect there if I use coercion or force or manipulation of any kind to get him to do things I want him to do. I also want him to do the right thing for the right reason - not because hes afraid or trying to avoid something happening to him, etc. If he picks up his toys because hes afraid of what I might do to him (refuse to let him outside to play, etc) then hes picking up his toys for the wrong reason - he would only be thinking of himself and his own benefit then. Over time, DS will learn that I like the toys picked up when we are done playing with them so no one trips over them and so that we can help keep the house looking nice and keep it clean and tidy. Some times this may be more important than others - and he will learn this as well. He will also learn that its just nice and helpful to help others out. He will learn this without me manipulating him. If I were to manipulate him he would learn 'how can I gain from my actions' (be it avoiding a concequence or after something) - he would learn how to be selfish.

i think i may love you, ann_ of _loxley!

i have been trying to word this very idea to my dh. not very articulately though and you summed it up very well. in our house we have been talking a lot about discipline and the effects of discipline, punishments, etc on who we become as adults. (our ds is only 1 but it's still an interesting ongoing topic)
anyway, i think you hit the nail on the head.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
OP here. I really appreciate all of your replies.
Ann of Loxley said, "It would have been manipulation though if I would have said 'Pick them up now or you cant go outside'"

This is what I am referring to when I ask am I missing something. I know that I need to give my dd, who is only 11 mths BTW, choices.

I am having a hard time expressing my thoughts...please bare with me.

I feel responsible for the development of her character. I want her to be responsible, somewhat organized if possible, caring of others in the house, respectful with her things and others' things.

I also don't plan to yell, spank, or even use time outs (I think) that much. I like the time in thing, but this is all still theory to me. *However, I have no problem withholding a desired object or play time in order to help her to develop her character and her organizational skills. But this is what I am hearing is manipulative. I really don't get it.*

I'm thinking that this is a CL approach to not do anything that coerces or manipulates. Hey, I just figured out my problem! I don't like that word 'manipulation'. Let me look it up.
Okay...it has a both a negative and a positive connotation. Chiropractors manipulate the bones in order to heal us. I like that!

Anyway, I think it's my job as a parent to help develop her character and I can't figure out how I am going to teach her to be responsible without some kind of *manipulation* for lack of a better word.

To all the CL parents, please don't think I am picking on you. I really do want to understand this thing about manipulation. Maybe I just view it as discipline/teaching rather than manipulation.

To Waldorf: Thanks for the encouragement!

OP- if you are withholding a desired object or playtime to coerce your dd into doing _what you want_ that is manipulation. will that 'withholding' teach her how to be a better person, build character and how to be responsible? or does it teach her that she needs to *act* a certain way to get what she wants/avoid pain?

if you think about it in terms adult interaction it's almost easier to see how manipulation can go from being a simple matter of parent child communication to actually creating people who are not "good" at all but like ann_of _loxley said in her first post, are just plain "selfish".

OP- i kept having these same thoughts that you've expressed run through my head when i would read posts in the GD forum. ( my ds is 1 so we're a long way from these sorts of interactions, also.) it wasn't until i started to observe and pay attention to the interactions i had with other adults that i could really understand the concept of manipulation.

actually, what _really_ got me thinking about this whole idea of manipulation (and how to parent children so that they learn how to be kind and caring and not manipulative) was a couple i am friends with who are separated and headed for divorce.

it is clear in the conversations that i have had with both the husband and the wife that the husband has little regard for his wife's feelings. not because he is a bad person (he isn't at all! he is actually very sweet and lovely) but in almost all of his relationships he cannot take _himself_ out of the equation!

recently, the husband had been really attentive to the wife and apologized profusely for the behavior that had prompted the separation in the first place. the wife said to him "what has shifted with you? why are you now listening to me and being sensitive to my needs when we've been in counseling for the past 10 months? what made you decide that it was time to apologize for what happened?"

his response was "because i miss you."

that is not a good, caring reason. on the surface it sounds sweet but deep down it's selfish. his answer should have been something like 'because i realized i have been very inconsiderate of your feelings and i want to understand you and what you need from our relationship.'

do you see how this probably goes all the way back to being a kid and learning (taught by parents) how to *act* a certain way to get what he wanted/avoid pain? it's not even conscious or overt it is so deeply embedded. because of that conditioning as a child he is incapable of having a genuine, caring relationship with his wife. it is always about what he is getting or not getting. he is a very giving generous person but there is always and element of fear ( don't leave me!) or trying to please (so as to feel loved) beneath that generosity and giving. it's sad and very unhealthy.

i know this is very very long winded but when i had this conversation with my friend i had a HUGE "a-ha" moment about how dangerous manipulating children can be and what kind of person one becomes if that is how they learn to relate to others.

it is so subtle and it happens all the time in adult relationships that we have become immune to it almost. but i have to say now that i know what it looks like i have become very sensitive to having it done to me/doing it to others.
i really want to break that cycle for my own son. i want him to be very genuine in his actions. so, i try to be that way with him.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
I also don't plan to yell, spank, or even use time outs (I think) that much. I like the time in thing, but this is all still theory to me. However, I have no problem withholding a desired object or play time in order to help her to develop her character and her organizational skills. But this is what I am hearing is manipulative. I really don't get it.

My son has always really enjoyed the idea of two positive choices. "While you clean up, do you want to pretend your toys are racing, or do you want to try to throw them into the bin like a basketball?" He has needed that control since he was very young. However without some underlying structure and boundaries (in this example the cleaning up itself) he would crumple into an insecure mess. So my playful parenting likely has an element of coercion, but I am fine with that.

I believe it is when a person is taught poor boundaries, and that their behaviors make them unacceptable as a person, that they will grow up to be adults with relationship problems. Those lessons can be taught under any parenting philosophy unfortunately, because they are concepts and patterns of interaction. The beauty of gentle discipline as I understand it is that it has a great deal to do with how much time and effort is spent on the actual relationship outside of "discipline issues".


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## DoingDoing:Julie (May 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Waldorf PC* 
There is nothing wrong. You are giving the child a choice, which is what I often do.

An example of this is that you say that either he can clean his room and then go out to play: or, he doesn't clean his room and has to stay inside. This way, you are giving the child the autonomy and the leadway to make his own choices. This is very healthy in my book. You are not only building a sense of self worth and the ability to make decisions in the child: but, you are teaching him about responsibility and obligations--before you go and do this, this must be done.

But . . . the child will sit there (after choosing not to pick up blocks and stay inside) and wonder "but how are the blocks on the floor preventing me from going outside?" And he/she will KNOW that it is a punishment for his choice to leave the blocks, and that he has picked "the bad choice" of the two. Maybe he will be angry at the punishment and enjoy picking "the bad choice" next time. He'll probably guess from your expression or tone that you would have preferred him to pick "clean up blocks and go outside after" choice. So now he can punish you as well as himself, and know this from the displeasure on your face? And he will feel like a bad child who picks the bad choices, and maybe he'll like that! Or get into that funk.

Yes, the blocks are his responisibility to clean up. BUT I can think of 4 projects at home which have either gone undone, or are even sitting on the floor because I have decided to finish/ or do it later. Nobody is standing over my shoulder saying, "you cant watch TV until you scrub the bathroom!" Or "do you want to scrub the bathroom and then go shopping? Or do you want to NOT scrub the bathroom and NOT go shopping" and if they do, i'm smart enough to know that they are messing with my head. What the F*** does shopping have to do with a dirty bathroom??? And i'll probably say, "okay, i'll NOT scrub the bathroom, and NOT go shopping!! Since the choice must be made!"
Is this learning self worth?
And is it a good way to learn obligations?


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## DoingDoing:Julie (May 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *popsicle sticks* 
My son has always really enjoyed the idea of two positive choices. "While you clean up, do you want to pretend your toys are racing, or do you want to try to throw them into the bin like a basketball?" He has needed that control since he was very young. However without some underlying structure and boundaries (in this example the cleaning up itself) he would crumple into an insecure mess. So my playful parenting likely has an element of coercion, but I am fine with that.


Way to go! IT seams to me like whether or not this choice is considered manipulation, it is a really positive choice. Rather than saying, "you MUST clean up your toys or . . ." You get him involved and interested. I suppose you could also say, "lets pick up the YELLOW toys and clean the BLUE ones when we come inside!"


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## ShadowLark (Aug 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
See now...I actually find that manipulative lol...I phrase it the way I do because its usually something that _I myself_ desire.

I would never _insist_ it be done but as I wanted it done in the first place, if DS didnt
want to help/do it, then I would just have to carry on and do it myself (like I have to do with most thing when it comes to this house - espeically concerning DH







lol) My son really has no obligation to help (if he really didnt want to help or pick up his blocks at all in any way he would just carry trotting off outside and I dont think id care in the slightest lol)...I ask if he wants to (can you pick up your blocks?), I ask if he wants to do it a different way than originally proposed (you want me to help?) and if he still doesnt want to do it - then I just get on with it as its _me_ that wants it done (pick them up alone regardless - he may jump in and help then...monkey see moneky do - but that wasnt my plan - it just tends to happen that way as he wants to do what I am doing but I dont set out to use that trait to manipulate him - I guess I could see how this could be viewed as manipulative if I set out to use his good nature against him for my own personal gain.). If I really wanted him to do it or to help though, then I would phrase it in a matter of fact way (as I really do when I just really need him to do something) as in 'Help me pick up your blocks' or 'I need you to pick up your blocks now please'.

I find your example manipulative because it gives false choice. It says 'this is going to get done, you can do it this way or that way'....it gives a false sense of choice in my eyes. Its like me saying 'Right - its bedtime!'...(ds not wanting to go to bed)...so I say 'Would you like me to read you the book about the cat or the book about the dragon?'.... Its a false choise because it means either way he is going to bed but I make it look like hes got that freedom of choice by giving him the option of which bedtime story he would like me to read to him. As an adult I may find this consensual because I know better lol (and because I know better, I can really make a consensual choice about it)...But a small child may not pick up on the subltness of it and be lured into doing something they didnt really want to do.

Makes perfect sense and I am not saying I dont sometimes do that (







lol)...but I try not to because it is manipulative.

Not an attack at you!...Had to add that as moderators are after me







lol...But this is certainly a very interresting topic! Its nice to get the different perspectives.

Okay, I guess it also depends on the age of the child. And your example makes PERFECT sense, now that I know if his answer is no thanks, that's okay.
Letting a kid know that the rule is X, but you can do X in y fashion or z fashion - you are right that the kid has no choice about X. But letting them choose y or z still gives them control, or at least a sense of it. So for a two year old, it would be, we WILL pick up the toys now. Are you doing it with mommy or alone? (And I'm pretty sure the answer will always be "with mommy", especially if I want it done neatly. But if the answer is "alone", then I'm okay with an honest attempt, even if I have to sneak back during nap time and neaten it up (because half the toys end up around the bin instead of in it).)
But with older kids, of course there are ground rules, but they're more flexible. Like maybe the toys just have to be in the general vicinity of the bin (for safety's sake), but they can be put away properly right before dinner or bed. And maybe the kid knows that bedtime is 8:30, and the toys need to be put away by 8 for there to be time for a story. Because I'm either reading the story or putting the toys away, I can't do both.
Now that would only work until the kid can say, "that's fine, mom. You put the toys away and I'LL read the story". But I would hope by then, the understanding would be reached that the toys are a priority, and part of having them is caring for them. (Which will obviously be taught in other ways as well.) Putting them away is part of caring for them, and we all need to work together for the house to run smoothly.
THAT is the real lesson I hope to teach. In the end, it's not about the toys, or who wants what. It's about shared living equaling shared responsibilities. It's about figuring out MUTUAL consent for rules, not just doing what one party or the other wants "because I said so" or because "you can't make me". There will always be ways to get around the rules, and there will always be rules that are just plain arbitrary but that nonetheless need to be followed for the smooth operation of Society. My kids need to learn how - and most importantly WHEN - to follow those rules. Just as important as learning how to think for themselves and be independent is learning when to go along with "the rules" for the greater good of everyone.
It's a balance, and a tricky one at that. I'm not sure I've even figured it out completely, but I aim to keep learning how and I aim to teach it to my kids.

Not sure how much of that related to the OP, but I hope it made sense. It sounds like you're ahead of me anyway on this one - I hope my ideas work when I put them into practice!


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoingDoing:Julie* 
But . . . the child will sit there (after choosing not to pick up blocks and stay inside) and wonder "but how are the blocks on the floor preventing me from going outside?" And he/she will KNOW that it is a punishment for his choice to leave the blocks, and that he has picked "the bad choice" of the two. Maybe he will be angry at the punishment and enjoy picking "the bad choice" next time. He'll probably guess from your expression or tone that you would have preferred him to pick "clean up blocks and go outside after" choice. So now he can punish you as well as himself, and know this from the displeasure on your face? And he will feel like a bad child who picks the bad choices, and maybe he'll like that! Or get into that funk.

*Yes, the blocks are his responisibility to clean up. BUT I can think of 4 projects at home which have either gone undone, or are even sitting on the floor because I have decided to finish/ or do it later. Nobody is standing over my shoulder saying, "you cant watch TV until you scrub the bathroom!" Or "do you want to scrub the bathroom and then go shopping? Or do you want to NOT scrub the bathroom and NOT go shopping" and if they do, i'm smart enough to know that they are messing with my head. What the F*** does shopping have to do with a dirty bathroom??? And i'll probably say, "okay, i'll NOT scrub the bathroom, and NOT go shopping!! Since the choice must be made!"
Is this learning self worth?
And is it a good way to learn obligations?*

Actually I did just tell myself today that I have to get certain things done around the house before I could go shopping. If I finish my chores and still have energy left, I can go to Bed Bath and Beyond and the mall. This is my way of prioritizing things and I believe my mom taught me this.
I know adults don't treat each other this way, but adults' character is already formed. Children are still learning and forming their character. Their work ethic is not formed yet.

I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I wouldn't classify myself as a selfish person. I am reasonably generous and like to do things for others. However, I was raised like this: As long as I did what was asked of me and followed the rules, I got privileges. If I misbehaved I got grounded or things taken away for a period of time. This didn't make me selfish as a previous poster said. And I never wondered how the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.

Sorry if I am all over the place. Many times I post late at night and half my brain is gone! I guess I am still not convinced that this style of parenting is going to create a selfish person who only does good to avoid bad things happening to themselves.

After all, I do good because it makes me feel good. I am honest because it makes me feel good. I don't want to have a guilty conscience, therefore I do my best to avoid doing wrong things.

Thanks to all of you for the input. It is helping me to formulate my thoughts a little.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoingDoing:Julie* 
But . . . the child will sit there (after choosing not to pick up blocks and stay inside) and wonder "but how are the blocks on the floor preventing me from going outside?" And he/she will KNOW that it is a punishment for his choice to leave the blocks, and that he has picked "the bad choice" of the two. Maybe he will be angry at the punishment and enjoy picking "the bad choice" next time. He'll probably guess from your expression or tone that you would have preferred him to pick "clean up blocks and go outside after" choice. So now he can punish you as well as himself, and know this from the displeasure on your face? And he will feel like a bad child who picks the bad choices, and maybe he'll like that! Or get into that funk.

Yes, the blocks are his responisibility to clean up. BUT I can think of 4 projects at home which have either gone undone, or are even sitting on the floor because I have decided to finish/ or do it later. Nobody is standing over my shoulder saying, "you cant watch TV until you scrub the bathroom!" Or "do you want to scrub the bathroom and then go shopping? Or do you want to NOT scrub the bathroom and NOT go shopping" and if they do, i'm smart enough to know that they are messing with my head. What the F*** does shopping have to do with a dirty bathroom??? And i'll probably say, "okay, i'll NOT scrub the bathroom, and NOT go shopping!! Since the choice must be made!"
Is this learning self worth?
And is it a good way to learn obligations?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Actually I did just tell myself today that I have to get certain things done around the house before I could go shopping. If I finish my chores and still have energy left, I can go to Bed Bath and Beyond and the mall. This is my way of prioritizing things and I believe my mom taught me this.
I know adults don't treat each other this way, but adults' character is already formed. Children are still learning and forming their character. Their work ethic is not formed yet.

I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I wouldn't classify myself as a selfish person. I am reasonably generous and like to do things for others. However, I was raised like this: As long as I did what was asked of me and followed the rules, I got privileges. If I misbehaved I got grounded or things taken away for a period of time. This didn't make me selfish as a previous poster said. And I never wondered how the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.

Not speaking from personal experience here (DD is 2yo and does whatever I do. I pick up blocks, she picks up blocks...) but wouldn't this be a matter of what is age appropriate and whether the child understands the relationship between the action and the consequences? If the rule in question is "you must do chores before watching TV," I can see how it might be manipulative for a young child who does not understand that chores are a priority in the home and mom/dad feels better when the house is kept clean. On the other hand, an older child should have that understanding and would be aware that leaving a mess or not doing chores is disrespectful towards others in the home - therefore not watching TV until X is done is totally reasonable. I would expect the same from myself.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I wouldn't classify myself as a selfish person. I am reasonably generous and like to do things for others. However, I was raised like this: As long as I did what was asked of me and followed the rules, I got privileges. If I misbehaved I got grounded or things taken away for a period of time. This didn't make me selfish as a previous poster said. And I never wondered how the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.

Sorry if I am all over the place. Many times I post late at night and half my brain is gone! I guess I am still not convinced that this style of parenting is going to create a selfish person who only does good to avoid bad things happening to themselves.

After all, I do good because it makes me feel good. I am honest because it makes me feel good. I don't want to have a guilty conscience, therefore I do my best to avoid doing wrong things.

Thanks to all of you for the input. It is helping me to formulate my thoughts a little.

I don't think this is an easy discussion to have because it does force so much self-examination.

I was raised as you were and it definitely didn't make me a selfish person. What it did make me, however, is someone who isn't always in touch with her own needs. I find it very hard to ask for help. I feel lousy if I don't get through my to-do list. I have had health issues because I took on too much and got tired out. I have gotten stressed and tired out and damaged relationships because I was not able to say no.

Also in my experience working non-profit, doing good to feel good about one's self can be dangerous. Because sometimes what you do to "help" isn't actually helping. It's kind of like the people who want to 'save' me in the evangelical Christian sense - they want to save me but I don't want to be saved. Is that really doing good, or are they just making themselves feel good?

In other words, neither extreme is authentic (in my opinion), and sometimes a "good work ethic" is a "bad personal ethic."

This is why for me it is really important to examine my assumptions about what is necessary and what is just preference.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Threads like this always intrigue me, because I really cannot fathom spending so much time concentrating on how I _phrase_ things. Just the back forth subtleties of how to word a simple sentence, that, in grand scheme of things, is going to achieve the same effect. It really resembles egg-shell parenting, where you get so paranoid that every little thing is going to be damaging to our children. I don't think we're giving them enough credit for being the resilient, critical thinkers that they are.

But, I'm openly a coercive, manipulative parent. And I'm fine with that.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Threads like this always intrigue me, because I really cannot fathom spending so much time concentrating on how I _phrase_ things. Just the back forth subtleties of how to word a simple sentence, that, in grand scheme of things, is going to achieve the same effect. It really resembles egg-shell parenting, where you get so paranoid that every little thing is going to be damaging to our children. I don't think we're giving them enough credit for being the resilient, critical thinkers that they are.

But, I'm openly a coercive, manipulative parent. And I'm fine with that.

















:


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## ShadowLark (Aug 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nina_yyc* 
Not speaking from personal experience here (DD is 2yo and does whatever I do. I pick up blocks, she picks up blocks...) but wouldn't this be a matter of what is age appropriate and whether the child understands the relationship between the action and the consequences? If the rule in question is "you must do chores before watching TV," I can see how it might be manipulative for a young child who does not understand that chores are a priority in the home and mom/dad feels better when the house is kept clean. On the other hand, an older child should have that understanding and would be aware that leaving a mess or not doing chores is disrespectful towards others in the home - therefore not watching TV until X is done is totally reasonable. I would expect the same from myself.

But for a kid that young, isn't it just "mommy's setting the limits, that makes me feel good"? If that's manipulation, then isn't it manipulation in the positive sense of the word?
Because little kids NEED boundaries and limits, and if the person who they love most in the world DOESN'T set them, the poor kid feels TOTALLY lost and bereft. That sounds like the exact OPPOSITE of what everyone is trying to accomplish, here.
As kids get older (read "more mature" - the age is ENTIRELY relative, here) the kids get more say in things, because they CAN handle limits of their own devising. But isn't that because they were taught that skill by their caretakers?
I'm so confused!


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## ShadowLark (Aug 8, 2008)

I would also add that even a baby will understand the fact that mommy and daddy feel better when X is done. They might not understand WHY X makes mommy and daddy feel good, but they can tell the difference between a happy mommy and daddy and an upset mommy and daddy.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowLark* 
But for a kid that young, isn't it just "mommy's setting the limits, that makes me feel good"? If that's manipulation, then isn't it manipulation in the positive sense of the word?
Because little kids NEED boundaries and limits, and if the person who they love most in the world DOESN'T set them, the poor kid feels TOTALLY lost and bereft. That sounds like the exact OPPOSITE of what everyone is trying to accomplish, here.
As kids get older (read "more mature" - the age is ENTIRELY relative, here) the kids get more say in things, because they CAN handle limits of their own devising. But isn't that because they were taught that skill by their caretakers?
I'm so confused!

I'm confused too!









I guess I was trying to see how both ways of thinking here could be right...because we're all really going for the same goal here, so I feel like everyone means the same thing but is maybe thinking of different contexts or wording.

I certainly didn't mean to imply there should be no limits. I am with PP who can't imagine spending so much time on the phrasing.

I really just use my internal sense of whether something is manipulative or not and try to see things from DD's perspective. I also don't overthink things...if something doesn't feel natural to me to say DD isn't going to respond to it anyway. She's good like that.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

Because little kids NEED boundaries and limits, and if the person who they love most in the world DOESN'T set them, the poor kid feels TOTALLY lost and bereft.
I guess this is the main difference in view from those of use on here who might call themselves CL (or not if you have a hangup about lablels lol) and those who add a smiley and say they are happily manipulative. I do not believe I need to set boundaries and limits with my son...and trust me, he is far from a poor lad who is lost and bereft!

Quote:

I would also add that even a baby will understand the fact that mommy and daddy feel better when X is done. They might not understand WHY X makes mommy and daddy feel good, but they can tell the difference between a happy mommy and daddy and an upset mommy and daddy.
I also do not want to teach my son he should do certain things to make/keep me happy. In the same way I wont make myself unhappy just to ensure that he is always happy and never cries. We live together, we work together...its not one way or the other.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:

I would also add that even a baby will understand the fact that mommy and daddy feel better when X is done. They might not understand WHY X makes mommy and daddy feel good, but they can tell the difference between a happy mommy and daddy and an upset mommy and daddy.
When my oldest was a toddler my main goal was that I would _always_ show love and acceptance regardless of what I happened to feel, but I'd be honest about how I felt too.

It's not manipulation to consider someone else's feelings and I do think little kids can do that. Person A considering the feelings of person B doesn't indicate that person A is taking responsibility for how B feels, either. If that were true, relationships would be all about manipulation and weak emotional boundaries.









Basically, I don't use my feelings as a motivational tool to get my child to do something, but we are open about how we feel and we take responsibility for our own emotions and the reactions we have to them.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
I guess this is the main difference in view from those of use on here who might call themselves CL (or not if you have a hangup about lablels lol) *and those who add a smiley and say they are happily manipulative.*

Feel free to quote me or refer to my post when you refer to something I said. My point was simply that I don't feel bad about my parenting, and I don't want those who are reading (er, lurking) to feel bad either.

For some people, spending a lot of time on wording and phrasing doesn't come easily or naturally, and being "false" in their interactions with their children can be just as detrimental as being unintentionally manipulative because something wasn't phrased _quite right_. Conversations like this make me feel bad for the parents who come down heavy on themselves for simple wording when, in the grand scheme of things, they are otherwise great parents. The persecution complexes I've seen over parents who came on here upset that they said *gasp* the word "no" is sad!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Feel free to quote me or refer to my post when you refer to something I said.

Err.. or not. I mean, it would be nice if you did. But if you don't, that's fine too.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't think we need to create limits. There are plenty of limits in life and we can simply help our children navigate those without creating new ones on top of those. No one has to "learn" limits - they by definition can't be avoided - they limit our ability to do something.

I'd probably say something like, "Oh look at all these blocks that need to be cleaned up. What should we do?" Now, at 6, my daughter is usually able to just clean up. I enlisted her help to find an organizational system for toys that worked for her and made it easy for her to keep things clean. But if she wanted to clean them up while watching TV, I wouldn't see any reason to say she couldn't watch TV until they were cleaned. And if she wanted to play outside because there were other kids playing then who might not be playing outside later, she'd probably say she'd clean them up when she came back in. I'm not too concerned about when the blocks get cleaned up so long as the floor is clear so I can vacuum after she goes to school in the morning, and so long as they aren't where I'll trip on them. And it's understandable to want to play when her friends are playing rather than later when she'd be alone. But that might be specifically an only child thing. I love her having opportunities to play outside with other kids and wouldn't mind blocks waiting.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't know that kids necessarily benefit from someone setting limits, per se. But I think they do benefit from *knowing* what the limits are, if that makes sense.

I see manipulation as using a sneaky way of getting things your way, or using some "false" emotional plea ("it makes me so sad when you don't eat your veggies"), or withholding something that the other person wants/needs in order to get your way.

I don't see straight up insisting as being manipulative, though. Coercive, perhaps. (Not that that's a bad thing. It just is.)

I also think that "false" choices tend to be manipulative. When you give the child a "choice" between something that you want done, and something that is unpleasant for the child and that you REALLY don't want the child to choose. So, "Pick up your toys or sit in time out." That's not really a choice, even though it's offered up as one. The parent isn't going to be happy if the child "chooses" a time out over picking up toys.

Where I'm confused is in situations where I offer a choice, and either choice by ds is perfectly fine with me. Like..."Put on your helmet and you can ride your bike, or you can leave your helmet off and NOT ride your bike."
Is that manipulative? Maybe I guess. But I don't care which he chooses. Either way is a-ok with me. I'm not trying to offer one unpleasant choice in order to make the one I want appear to be a good choice. Does that make sense? hmmm...


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Threads like this always intrigue me, because I really cannot fathom spending so much time concentrating on how I _phrase_ things. Just the back forth subtleties of how to word a simple sentence, that, in grand scheme of things, is going to achieve the same effect. It really resembles egg-shell parenting, where you get so paranoid that every little thing is going to be damaging to our children. I don't think we're giving them enough credit for being the resilient, critical thinkers that they are.

But, I'm openly a coercive, manipulative parent. And I'm fine with that.









Do you feel this way about interactions with other adults, or just with children?


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

:


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
I guess this is the main difference in view from those of use on here who might call themselves CL (or not if you have a hangup about lablels lol) and those who add a smiley and say they are happily manipulative. I do not believe I need to set boundaries and limits with my son...and trust me, he is far from a poor lad who is lost and bereft!

I also do not want to teach my son he should do certain things to make/keep me happy. In the same way I wont make myself unhappy just to ensure that he is always happy and never cries. We live together, we work together...its not one way or the other.

Makes sense, but just to clarify - that's not really what I meant about children doing things to make parents happy. I do not want to teach my DD to do meaningless things or to constantly martyr herself to make me happy - but I do want to teach DD to respect the needs of others, as we respect her needs. I don't see how that would be at odds with CL.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
Do you feel this way about interactions with other adults, or just with children?

Being direct? Saying what I mean? Not being passive aggressive? Um, everyone.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 

I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I wouldn't classify myself as a selfish person. I am reasonably generous and like to do things for others. However, I was raised like this: As long as I did what was asked of me and followed the rules, I got privileges. If I misbehaved I got grounded or things taken away for a period of time. This didn't make me selfish as a previous poster said. And I never wondered how the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.

*After all, I do good because it makes me feel good. I am honest because it makes me feel good. I don't want to have a guilty conscience, therefore I do my best to avoid doing wrong things.*

Thanks to all of you for the input. It is helping me to formulate my thoughts a little.


if you do good things simply because you liked to help other people that would be unselfish. if you don't do bad things simply because your actions would hurt other people that would be unselfish.

doing bad or doing good based on how it makes _you_ feel is "selfish".

it was really hard for me to get my head around when i first started thinking about it...

there are many things i do because i want people to like me (or to be socially acceptable) and many things i don't do because i don't want rejection. it takes a lot of self awareness and letting go to interact with people outside of those ingrained motivations.

when i've been around someone who is honest because being honest is simply respectful to the other person or someone who is a giver out of pure abundance of spirit (not keeping track or using their giving to guarantee some kind of loyalty) it is a very freeing and wonderful energy! (dang! that sound all hippie like.







)

i guess i aspire to be like that to with my lo. and i want him to grow up to be that sort of really clear, kind, genuine person.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Threads like this always intrigue me, because I really cannot fathom spending so much time concentrating on how I _phrase_ things. Just the back forth subtleties of how to word a simple sentence, that, in grand scheme of things, is going to achieve the same effect. It really resembles egg-shell parenting, where you get so paranoid that every little thing is going to be damaging to our children. I don't think we're giving them enough credit for being the resilient, critical thinkers that they are.

But, I'm openly a coercive, manipulative parent. And I'm fine with that.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Feel free to quote me or refer to my post when you refer to something I said. My point was simply that I don't feel bad about my parenting, and I don't want those who are reading (er, lurking) to feel bad either.

For some people, spending a lot of time on wording and phrasing doesn't come easily or naturally, and being "false" in their interactions with their children can be just as detrimental as being unintentionally manipulative because something wasn't phrased _quite right_. Conversations like this make me feel bad for the parents who come down heavy on themselves for simple wording when, in the grand scheme of things, they are otherwise great parents. The persecution complexes I've seen over parents who came on here upset that they said *gasp* the word "no" is sad!


are you really "intrigued" or a you just busting on those of us who are interested in the semantics of discipline?









I don't think it's "egg shell parenting" at all. i'm not paranoid about saying the wrong thing to my kid. i'm sure i'll manipulate and coerce and do and say many things that aren't 100% conscious and aware. do i think my kid is going to be damaged?- um, no.

i don't think that we are talking about never saying the word "no". i do think we are talking about saying "no" in a way that shames, punishes, and is disrespectful to boundaries of both parents and children.

i think it's good to push oneself to be more aware about the subtlety of language and phrasing, especially the language we use with our children. to me this is just a really interesting discussion about how people relate to each other.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
I don't know that kids necessarily benefit from someone setting limits, per se. But I think they do benefit from *knowing* what the limits are, if that makes sense.

*I see manipulation as using a sneaky way of getting things your way, or using some "false" emotional plea ("it makes me so sad when you don't eat your veggies"), or withholding something that the other person wants/needs in order to get your way.*

I don't see straight up insisting as being manipulative, though. Coercive, perhaps. (Not that that's a bad thing. It just is.)

I also think that "false" choices tend to be manipulative. When you give the child a "choice" between something that you want done, and something that is unpleasant for the child and that you REALLY don't want the child to choose. So, "Pick up your toys or sit in time out." That's not really a choice, even though it's offered up as one. The parent isn't going to be happy if the child "chooses" a time out over picking up toys.

*Where I'm confused is in situations where I offer a choice, and either choice by ds is perfectly fine with me. Like..."Put on your helmet and you can ride your bike, or you can leave your helmet off and NOT ride your bike."
Is that manipulative? Maybe I guess. But I don't care which he chooses. Either way is a-ok with me. I'm not trying to offer one unpleasant choice in order to make the one I want appear to be a good choice. Does that make sense? hmmm...*

*
*

right on- to the first part that is bolded.

with wearing a helmet and bike riding there is no choice.
being manipulative would be implying that there was a choice.
i would say "if you are riding your bike you have to wear your helmet. it is the rule in or family. it is for safety and it is non negotiable. if you don't wear you helmet you are not allowed to ride your bike." straight up. end of discussion. we all know that he *could* ride the bike, it will still work, but in our family our rule about bikes is that we don't ride them without a helmet. same goes with carseats and seatbelts. we don't ride without buckling up.

it is my responsibility to keep my child safe. it is not "my whim" or "my need". it's for the child's protection. i fulfill my duty and set the boundary and then i can engage my child to participate in the rule by offering him a choice of what kind of helmet he would like to wear.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Well I think sticky just said everything I was about to say in reply to the most recent posts! lol

To add to Devas - I also think , though this may just be plain obvious! lol, its also important to talk about it with your child. If a bike must be worn with a helmet, thats obvious safety reason, then I think its important to talk to your child about it. I only mention this because I know many of my friends have a 'because I say so' attitute and a 'well thats life - tough - live with it!' attitude...which I do not think is very healthy or helpful for the child and could turn into a potential manipulative situation.

I would also like to add to what sticky said about the subtlety of language and parenting and I completly agree. Its not something I spend my day fretting over and stressing on. However I do find it very interresting and a lot of truth in it. And at the end of the day, I see parenitng as my job. I am always looking to better myself and to improve - this invovled a lot of research and thought and then putting things into actions if I feel they fit our family. A lot of it comes easy...ive not been at this before, so im kinda a blank slate in some areas so if I take up doing something I can just do it. But some things have been a bit of work. Take the praise thing for example (which I also find manipulative depening on how it is used) - that took some work not doing because I found myself saying 'well done! Good boy!' to everything my son did without even thinking about it simply because that is what I have been surrounded by. I have a friend who says 'cool man!' (lol - shes from south africa) and because im around her, its rubbed off on me. If I wanted to stop saying that, it would take a bit of thought on my part because I end up saying it without even thinking about it. Its the same idea.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm always surprised when people don't expect people to discuss the nuts and bolts of parenting on a forum dedicated to discussing parenting. If we didn't want to talk about parenting decisions and how to discipline more gently, we probably wouldn't spend much time on a parenting discussion forum entitled "Gentle Discipline".


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
I do not believe I need to set boundaries and limits with my son...and trust me, he is far from a poor lad who is lost and bereft!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't think we need to create limits. There are plenty of limits in life and we can simply help our children navigate those without creating new ones on top of those.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
I don't know that kids necessarily benefit from someone setting limits, per se. But I think they do benefit from *knowing* what the limits are, if that makes sense.

This fascinates me. Maybe OT, but I'm really intrigued b/c you hear all the time about one of the roles of parenting regards either "setting" or "teaching" limits. You hear "kids thrive on knowing" what the limits/boundaries/rules are. Now, maybe i'm hearing this from all the wrong places, but I do try to strike a balance in my quest for parenting info, and the majority comes from MDC mamas, but I can't help but get mired up in the other stuff too and constantly questioning myself about what kind of adult i'm slowly creating here. So, for those who believe limits are not something parents need to set or enforce, how do they get learned? I mean, obviously, we'll come across things such as speed limits later in life and our parents aren't the ones enforcing them. we learn to respect them, or not, for some reason - good or bad. how do we learn that? do we not speed in order to keep us and everyone around us safe? do we speed when we think there are no cops around? do we speed because we fear a ticket? do we speed b/c we could care less - who cares about another ticket? seems to me that the most basic limits of childhood would be where you start and the other stuff comes at you as you age rather than saying you'll get enough when you're older, so let's not worry about it now. maybe i'm reading this all wrong though... and by "basic limits of childhood" i'm thinking of things like cleaning up your toys when you are finished with them, not dumping a bowl of soup on the table, splashing it with your hand, and then leaving the table like it never happened when mom wasn't looking, not whacking your little brother over the head with a piece of train track because he tried to take it from you (btw, these were the issues of yesterday at my house with my almost 4 yo ds). without setting a limit/striking a deal/manipulating/whatever, tell me how to handle a child who refuses getting ready for bed despite all the help, playing, sing-songing, etc... you can offer. i've been "reduced" to saying "you are wasting your story time. we were at three (our usual number of stories) and we've gone to two. if you can't calm down and get dressed, it will be one." now i feel like a totally craptastic parent because i've manipulated him into getting his act together and getting his uware and pjs on rather than running like a lunatic naked thru the house simply because he doesn't want to admit he's tired and ready for bed. however, without said manipulation, i'm left looking dumbfounded and waiting for him to decide when he's ready to sleep, without a care in the world about myself? or my dh? or my youngest ds? (because letting HIM decide his own bedtime is a recipe for disaster -we've tried).
so basically, i feel that i cannot be a good parent - i'm destined for screwing up no matter what i do!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
if you do good things simply because you liked to help other people that would be unselfish. if you don't do bad things simply because your actions would hurt other people that would be unselfish.

it is my responsibility to keep my child safe. it is not "my whim" or "my need". it's for the child's protection. i fulfill my duty and set the boundary and then i can engage my child to participate in the rule by offering him a choice of what kind of helmet he would like to wear.

ok, in the same vein as my posting above - is it selfish to avoid speeding in order to avoid a ticket? is it bad if that answer is "yes"? and let's take this down to a child's level...how do you teach a child to clean up a mess? i fully believe in modeling, but how long do you model and do it yourself? at what age do you expect the child to do it? or are you ok with them leaving the nest not knowing how to wash a load of clothes, pick their socks off the floor, or wash their dishes? if you constantly say, "it's time to pick up the ____" and they say "no" and you do it anyway (because *you* are the one who wants it clean) with the thought that they either a) will help you or b) will someday realize "this is what we do" then at what point is this over and you can just say "clean this up please" or don't have to say it and they do it on their own accord? is it quite possible that day would never come? i mean, i try to do the "clean up time" thing and my ds NEVER involves himself. NEVER. EVER. He consistently chooses his own happiness over the happiness of the family. maybe this is just 3-4 yo behavior but at what point, if ever, would he, on his own accord, magically decide it's time to step in and become an integral part of the family choretime without some parental work in this area?
i don't think we give enough credit to individual personality here and realize that while for some kids this will work, for others you could literally spend your whole life cleaning up after them and they'd be happy to let you do it. so, for those personalities, what do you do if NOT manipulation? and let's use manipulation here in the "nicest" sense of the word. i'm not saying, "clean this up or go to your room for the rest of the day" .

thoughts please!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Being direct? Saying what I mean? Not being passive aggressive? Um, everyone.

Perhaps I am misreading you, but your tone seems quite hostile. That's why I asked. I feel it IS important to think, very carefully, about what, exactly, I am trying to say, before I say it. We can look at our own language for indication as to what is really going on in ourselves.

For instance, your comment above doesn't answer the question that I meant to pose. So maybe I posed it wrong. What I meant was "do you think it is important to think before you speak, do you think it is always reasonable to assume that others will and should absorb the hurt from a misunderstanding, do you believe in coercion and manipulation when dealing with adults?" because that is what I thought your post was saying about dealing with children.

That is not a way that I choose to operate. I suspect that you might not really think that is a good way to operate either. That's why it is important to me to think about what is behind my words, and how they will be interpreted.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

double post


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

OP, I wanted to comment on what you shared about your childhood discipline: how the straightforward approach used in your childhood worked for your family, and how you saw this as logical and peaceful (no yelling or spanking, while using consistency and arbitrary rewards/non violent punishments to shape character). I think this is a widely used approach in other developed countries (Americans are more likely to use violent punishments IMO). I'm always glad to see families who are disciplining without hitting or yelling. The approach you described works for many children when two factors are taken into consideration. The first is age appropriate expectations, and the second one is personality.

Many people wind up in Gentle Discipline because of a personality issue with their child and traditional discipline. For whatever reason, their child just needs *more* in terms of engagement, creativity, and cooperative problem solving.

A second reason people wind up in Gentle Discipline is to learn how to parent during the window of time before a child is developmentally able to handle a traditional "When the dishes are done you can play" approach. Many 2 and 3 year olds will routinely melt down in the face of that logic, because they are not developmentally mature enough to understand the logic being used. You wind up with a toddler who is thrashing on the floor, screaming hysterically, and being less cooperative instead of more.

I have noticed that with older children, in Gentle Discipline, there is more reliance on the traditional logic you experienced in your childhood. I notice that the advice for handling problems with older children and teens is much more "traditional" than the advice for handling toddlers and preschoolers.

My explanation of this goes back to the issues I raised above. Gentle Discipline tends to be a salvation for parents of very high needs children, as well as parents of very young children. Even among GD families, there tends to be a shift towards somewhat more traditional logical consequences and more inclusion of "when/then" tactics as kids grow up.

One interesting last point is that when we talk about our own childhood memories, we are *usually* remembering ourselves from the ages of 4 or 5 and upward. Fewer adults have clear memories of their daily life at the ages of 2 and 3. What works with a 5 or 6 year old can be disastrous with a 2 year old--but few of us actually remember well enough to know this.

My rambling point is that you will notice there are very few posts here regarding older children, and I think this is for a reason. If you can survive the early years by building up the skills learned in Gentle Discipline, the older years are often easier to navigate. Not always of course, but in terms of "please put your plate in the sink before leaving the kitchen", your 10 year old will probably just think "okay" while a 2 year old may fall on the floor in hysterics. Your 10 year old might see the statement as logical, and need no further discussion, while the 2 year old takes it very differently. With GD you are looking for ways to gently and creatively involve the 2 year old, striving for an overall positive experience...because that level of creativity and patience is what a 2 year old might *need* in terms of discipline. Most 10 year olds don't need you to explain why they should put their plate in the sink, and in my experience, it has been enough to simply say "Please put your plate in the sink before leaving the kitchen". If there is resistance, I want to hear why, and get to the bottom of the issue. I think something is wrong if my older child needs lots of discussion or consequences lined up in order to cooperative with basic requests. By learning to discipline without punishment in the early years, *I* am actually more effecient dealing with older-kid discipline issues. I might say 'Please do the dishes before playing gameboy--it will be too late afterwards and the noise of clanging dishes will wake me up". I DO make a habit of explaining my reason if it's not obvious. The most I might get from ds is some grumbling. But I don't find I need to get into detailed discussions, or hand out punishments, in order for him to see the logic of my requests and cooperate.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts for an interesting thread...


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
are you really "intrigued" or a you just busting on those of us who are interested in the semantics of discipline?









Oh no, the symtics intrigue me!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
Perhaps I am misreading you, but your tone seems quite hostile. <snip> What I meant was "do you think it is important to think before you speak, do you think it is always reasonable to assume that others will and should absorb the hurt from a misunderstanding, do you believe in coercion and manipulation when dealing with adults?" because that is what I thought your post was saying about dealing with children.

Of course it's important to think about what you say before you say it. But going back to the picking up of the blocks. What I'm finding interesting is finding the _right_ way to word a phrase asking the child to pick up blocks so that they ultimately end up picking up blocks. Like, you're planting a seed in their head so it grows into their idea (which in my mind, seems more manipulative then just asking to avoid arbitrary "consequences").

In our house I have no problem saying "please pick up your blocks". And if she doesn't, I have no problems saying "then we can't go to the park". That, according to everything on this thread, is coercive and manipulative, with a shot of bribery thrown in. BUT, that's the way life is. We can't run on our own time and expect the world to cater to us. If I have to be home to make dinner, and have to pick up all the toys by myself just so I can walk through a room, never mind vacuum, then I won't have time to pack up and get to the park. The effort has to go both ways.

I don't see how being direct in what you want is hurtful. But I mean, I pick my battles. Who doesn't? But when someone helping out or doing something is important to the flow of the house hold, like making dinner, or getting laundry done so everyone has clean socks, etc, I don't mess around with the "semantics". I just ask a direct question.

Perhaps I missed the intent of this thread, but earlier up thread there were several examples of how to word a phrase asking a child to pick up blocks. What's wrong with just saying "please pick up your blocks"?

And furthermore, what's wrong with having a relationship with your children where the desire to please and help out motivates them? You really mean to say that EVERYTHING you do in life is internally motivated by your own feelings of satisfactions in accomplishing said tasks? I think that's unrealistic, so I don't rely on that as a motivating factor (though right now, DD is wiping her crayon art of the wall because she LOVES cleaning, lol).

I certainly don't want to take advantage of someone's willingness to help, but I also don't see how the desire to please others is inherently bad either. I think striking a balance between being gracious for the help you get, and being aware of your and their limits is important (like knowing when to say no and accept being said no to). I take serious consideration for when DD says "not right now mama" because what she's doing is important to her. So I guess you can say I'm a considerate manipulator. LOL


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Well I think sticky just said everything I was about to say in reply to the most recent posts! lol

To add to Devas - I also think , though this may just be plain obvious! lol, its also important to talk about it with your child. If a bike must be worn with a helmet, thats obvious safety reason, then I think its important to talk to your child about it. I only mention this because I know many of my friends have a 'because I say so' attitute and a 'well thats life - tough - live with it!' attitude...which I do not think is very healthy or helpful for the child and could turn into a potential manipulative situation.

I would also like to add to what sticky said about the subtlety of language and parenting and I completly agree. Its not something I spend my day fretting over and stressing on. However I do find it very interresting and a lot of truth in it. And at the end of the day, I see parenitng as my job. I am always looking to better myself and to improve - this invovled a lot of research and thought and then putting things into actions if I feel they fit our family. A lot of it comes easy...ive not been at this before, so im kinda a blank slate in some areas so if I take up doing something I can just do it. But some things have been a bit of work. Take the praise thing for example (which I also find manipulative depening on how it is used) - that took some work not doing because I found myself saying 'well done! Good boy!' to everything my son did without even thinking about it simply because that is what I have been surrounded by. I have a friend who says 'cool man!' (lol - shes from south africa) and because im around her, its rubbed off on me. If I wanted to stop saying that, it would take a bit of thought on my part because I end up saying it without even thinking about it. Its the same idea.

i agree.

but sometimes i probably will say "because i said so!"








not because i'm being being mean or anything, not "like it or lump it" said harshly. but i do have irrational needs and wants and sometimes it may feel like _my_ boundaries are being violated by being questioned all the time. you know what i mean? sometimes i'm just me- humor me, darn it!

my child is 1 and we don't really have power struggles. well, they're there but it's mostly over things that simply have to happen- poopy diapers getting changed, not climbing on unsafe things... i think i try to be as understanding of his needs and wants as i can but sometimes my needs have to be met or his needs have to be met and he doesn't know it and there is no way around it than for him to *suffer* for a few minutes. sometimes i have to go to the bathroom or he needs a dipe changed when he wants me to keep playing and that starts a fit. i'm not trying to bubble wrap my child against fits or make it all about him all the time. i keep it gentle and explain why and i think that is truly consensual.

i see parenting as my job, too. so why wouldn't i want to read as much as i can and listen to as much as i can about it? it is fascinating on many levels and it's taught me so much about my self, boundaries, expectations, and control. i've had to unlearn some stupid stuff.

i started thinking about this praise/ reward/ punish/ manipulate thing when my lo was just a little baby and people would ask if he was "good". i mean he is a baby. he just "is". what does good have to do with anything. and "good"- in this case-is a value judgement based on other people's needs/wants/comfort. why does a docile, sleep through the night, non- crying baby mean "good"? and would the opposite type of child then be bad?

it's just weird and it starts at 0 with a child. the judging based on our own adult needs and then "setting limits" based on our need to control - i mean isn't that what CIO is all about? or scheduled feeding? that is where manipulation begins and it gave me the chills and made me start looking at the big picture.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i'm not going to quote previous posts because then this will get really long. so, i'm just going to put out here my thoughts and try to address direct questions that were brought up.

first, *heartmama*- pretty much hit the nail on the head about why these threds take place. (which is probably why she is a mod for GD







)

i have a little child (under 3) and as i just wrote, i started thinking about this topic when ds was tiny. in observing the punish/reward dynamic it felt false to me.

i was a very well behaved child. my parents were good parents, strict parents, limit setting parents. there were consequences and expectations. i started to think about how i've learned internal discipline and how i learned to be a good person and in thinking about that i realized i hadn't! sometimes i think i have acted downright unconscionably- cheating on a boyfriend, lying to my boss. so why? why would i do these things if i had such a good upbringing? and i realized a lot of my motivations to "behave" even as an adult are based in fear- fear of punishment and fear of not be liked/loved. i started to see how adults do this all the time to each other. i wondered what would happen if a child, was simply taught honesty -to himself and his needs about others and their needs. i wondered what would happen if i stopped doing things from a motivation of wanting to be liked or to avoid being punished and did things simply from a place of honesty.

so, i don't steal and run red lights and speed and break "the law" not because i fear punishment but because they are anti-social/sociopathic behaviors- meaning they disregard the property/boundaries of others. prisons exist to separate from society those who cannot respect the boundaries of other people. i want to co-operate and belong to society not live on a fringe getting away with what i can, screwing other people over.

it's not from fear of being punished it's wanting to be a 'part of'. it's an internal motivation not an external one.

i think that all children are born with an internal desire to be a part of something- their family, their social groups, etc. they just don't know the etiquette of it but if given a chance they will, i believe, do the "right" thing.

i don't know how you get a 4 year old to clean up. or go to bed. or stop smacking his little sis. i'm not there yet and even if i were i would probably be mighty frustrated! so big <<hugs>> to *jackson'smam*a!

spending time with my one year old now i have learned his triggers. so at 4 i would probably examine what was going on in the big picture and see what this "acting out" was all about. was he looking to spend more time with me? was he going through transitions that made day to day interactions escalate into a battle of wills?

i believe it is perfectly fine to say to my child- "i don't like going out while the house is a mess. i like the house tidy when we come home so we have a fresh start. but it makes me tired to have to clean up by myself and then i don't feel like playing at the park. so, let's start cleaning up by picking up the toys." i wouldn't even say "please". "please" implies that he is doing it for _me_ instead of for us and our common goal of going to the park to play. i think it's fine to say to a kid that i'm ok with this and not with that and i need your help to accomplish xyz so we can all have fun. i wouldn't say to my dh "we can't go to the movies unless the kitchen is cleaned up" because it not true. but i might say " i really dislike coming home to a messy kitchen so could you help me clean up before we leave so i can relax and enjoy the movies." i'm asking for help and i'm being honest about my needs. let's say i don't care on a Saturday night if the dishes are left to soak while we go to a movie but on a Wednesday i do. with manipulation methods "we can't go to the movies unless the dishes are done" then we would always HAVE to do the dishes. it's not realistic and it allows no room for human needs/wants/whims. where with more open honest communication i could say "we'll leave the dishes tonight because i don't mind doing them when we get back".

being inconsistent in a rewards vs. punishment (manipulative/outward control) based discipline model would make someone neurotic! do the dishes need to be done or not?! being honest allows for more flexibility because the internal discipline is always in place.

boundaries are always consistent. boundaries and standards are a lot different than arbitrary rules designed to satisfy a need. "no hitting" is a boundary. "we clean before we go out" is a rule. my boundary of needing a tidy space doesn't need to be made into a rule if i express my need honestly without manipulation. ultimately, to me, "manipulation" results from dishonesty or at least the inability to express a personal need.

so wordy. sorry!


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

i think that all children are born with an internal desire to be a part of something- their family, their social groups, etc. they just don't know the etiquette of it but if given a chance they will, i believe, do the "right" thing.
Im just gonna let sticky take over







lol....
I quote this because I think this really hits the nail on the head. A lot of it starts here, is about this. From me, this requires a lot of trust. It wouldnt 'work' without that. Human are naturally social creatures. Thats how we learn. This is also why I feel a lot of the other things I do are very important - like babywearing. I dont just do it because its nice but because it also meets babys needs, going beyond including the need to be held and love to the need to be a part of society, invovled, stuck in where they can learn the best. For me, this trust and learning starts from birth. This 'discipline' starts right there.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i believe it is perfectly fine to say to my child- *"i* don't like going out while the house is a mess. *i* like the house tidy when we come home so we have a fresh start. but it makes *me* tired to have to clean up by *myself* and then *i* don't feel like playing at the park. so, let's start cleaning up by picking up the toys."

That makes no logical sense to me. That's a lot to expect a child to digest, process, and understand. The idea that intermingling a simple question - "please help me pick up the toys" - into a long winded _paragraph_ makes it somehow less manipulative is erroneous. I counted the use of "I", "me" and "myself" *5 times* in that ONE phrase, and yet your goal is to create a common motive as opposed to implying he's doing it (picking up toys) for you.

Quote:

i wouldn't even say "please". "please" implies that he is doing it for _me_ instead of for us and our common goal of going to the park to play.
The fact of the matter is, according to your above alternative, YOU don't like going out while the house is a mess, because YOU like to come home to a tidy house and a fresh start, and it makes YOU tired to have to clean it by YOURself, and then YOU don't feel like going to the park.

But you won't say "please" because that implies he should do it for you. And yet using the words "me", "I" and "myself" *5 times* is ambiguous enough for him to derive his own motivation. That makes no sense!


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I have tried a few different approaches with DS and have found that the direct one works best. I see nothing wrong with saying, "Please pick up your blocks, honey."

And if I get resistance, it depends. If he is having fun doing something else then sure, it can wait for a few moments (we are big into 5 minute heads up, to which DS always "negotiates" for 2 minutes







).

If a person lives in our home then they contribute to the household in ways that they can, dependent on their ability. And I don't understand how making a direct request is harmful.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

See "please" to me sounds like a request especially for the toddler set. If I ask for a favor, and the child says no, that's fine but a completely different situation. More semantics for you all.









If there is something that I've decided has to be done and I've decided it's my child's responsibility to do it, I simply say "It's time to do such and such." In the toddler years there was a lot of playfulness and step by step encouragement used to help him do what he was told to do, there was no punishments or rewards set up. I guess I'm reading that the difference is that I believe I have the authority to set those expectations and then to enforce them (primarily by being clear and consistent as opposed to a punishment/reward model).


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I realize that sometimes I say "please do ...." and sometimes I say, "It's time to......"

I wonder if the inconsistency is going to ruin him.


















I guess I do the same with DH. I might say, "Honey, please clean the bathroom. It's your turn." Or I might say, "Honey, it's time to clean the bathroom. It's your turn."


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *popsicle sticks* 
If there is something that I've *decided has to be done* and I've decided it's my child's responsibility to do it, I simply say "It's time to do such and such."

How does that sentence specify who has to do what, though? That's not a request, it's a statement.

Can you imagine how that work in every day life? Making statements hoping people will understand that you're asking a question, and thus act accordingly? Doesn't that set people up for _mis_communication?

Example...

Me "It's time for a beer"

Husband "yeah, you're right"

Me: "well can you get me one?"

Husband "huh? you _want_ a beer?"

Me "yeah, because it's time?"

Husband "well, you didn't _say_ you wanted a beer"

Me "oh, well, can you get me one?"

Husband "sure, but next time, can you just ask me for one?"

Gah, that makes my head hurt just thinking about it! The funny thing is (only it's not really that funny), is that when we're adults, we call those kinds of questions "head games". You're expecting a child to interpret a statement into a question, and then act accordingly. That's difficult for some adults to do, let alone children.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Consistancy can be a whole new debate. I do not believe you can be honestly and naturaly consistant. It just does not work, seems confusing for me at least, and children are just not stupid...

Kinda OT...but here is an example:

We were over at a friends house. Friends DS threw a rock at my DS. It hurt - my DS cried about it. I went to comfort him. Friend went to tell her DS off 'WE do NOT throw!'...Her DS was then taken into the living room to sit on the sofa chair there for a time out - it is a room that has a door to it, so she closed that door as well. When she went back into the room, she had found him throwing the sofa cushions on the floor in anger. I saw it coming...we are told to be consistant, that our children need us to be consistant. She told him off again - 'We do NOT throw!!!'... this includes the sofa cushion apparently!...So he was to sit in the chair for even longer.
Now....I feel there is more than one thing wrong with this situation - but its only the consistancy part I am refering to here. She was trying to be consistent. No throwing. But what exactly is wrong with throwing a cushion on the living room floor? I would rather my son threw cushions on the floor to help release his anger than throw a rock at someone. But its almost as if the feeling is we need to make the 'rule' not to throw at all because children are dumb and cant get the difference between throwing a cushion on the floor and throwing a rock at someone (which I think they can).
Also - things happen different in everyones house. A lot of my friends do not allow any kind of throwing at all in their house - but when they come ove to ours, we do. We have soft indoor balls that are always being thrown around. (about consistancy here). For us, concerning this and manipulation, we take things day by day really. The grand scheme of things has been looked at a few times - hence the CL path I am on now...but I dont and wont sit around fretting about the future today for the sake of tomorrow...baby steps lol...day by day... hehe


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

My 2 1/2 year old can totally understand "I" versus "you." I don't think that happens by magic, I think it takes communication. So we communicate. I tell him where I am at, what I need, what I want, and he tells me. Sometimes one of us doesn't really know, so we ask for something that doesn't actually meet the need.

Sometimes we are at odds, sometimes we are in tune. But we do it together. My boundaries and limits change all the time (sometimes I feel like dtd, sometimes I don't want dh within 10 feet, sometimes I feel like going apple picking with ds, sometimes I feel like staying home), so I find it is best to just focus on keeping the lines of communication open.

I guess this is a little off from manipulation, because it is clear to me that people on this thread have different ideas of what that means, and there is a lot of miscommunication happening. What it comes down to is a philosophical approach. If my goal is to get ds to do something, and he doesn't want to do it, then any tool that I use to get him to do it will be manipulation. If my goal is to come to a consensus about what our needs are, and how they can get met, then it doesn't feel manipulative.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

How does that sentence specify who has to do what, though? That's not a request, it's a statement.
Im not saying I agree or disagree but I think that was the point (just trying to clarify how I read her post). It is not a request because its going to be done. Its not up for debate. If it were a request then the other person is then open to say yay or nay. Its the difference between 'can you pick up your blocks please' and 'pick up your blocks'.

Quote:

Example...

Me "It's time for a beer"

Husband "yeah, you're right"

Me: "well can you get me one?"
Maybe you didnt pick the best example...sometimes I do that. I mean I used blocks as an emaple and everyone since then has use it lol.... anyroad... End quote there. Thats where it would end imo in real life between adults. Husbands reply would them be yay or nay. If it were my DH he would say 'you are closest, your legs work, get it yourself' lol If hes feeling like spoiling me though he would say 'sure'...whilst getting up to get it.

Quote:

Perhaps I missed the intent of this thread, but earlier up thread there were several examples of how to word a phrase asking a child to pick up blocks. What's wrong with just saying "please pick up your blocks"?
I think you did miss the intent - maybe with another bad example. Those examples were given to show how one asks a child in a manipulative way and how you could just simply ask them in a non manipulative way. But what if you ask them and they dont want to?...so...ask them, and if they dont want to do it, instead of you then manipulating them into doing it, just get on with it yourself.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

If my goal is to get ds to do something, and he doesn't want to do it, then any tool that I use to get him to do it will be manipulation. If my goal is to come to a consensus about what our needs are, and how they can get met, then it doesn't feel manipulative.
Well summed up.
What I was basically trying to show in my examples. But what I have learned time and time again is that examples can either help or hinder an arugment one way or the other lol.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by popsicle sticks View Post
If there is something that I've decided has to be done and I've decided it's my child's responsibility to do it, I simply say "It's time to do such and such."

Quote:

How does that sentence specify who has to do what, though? That's not a request, it's a statement.
That is true, to clarify, the difference is likely due to the fact that when he was very small, I'd tell him time _for you_ to do such and such. As he grew and came to understand the general expectations of the household he knows what his responsibilities are.

In my family, where I cook dinner almost 360 days of the year it would be similar to this:
Me: It's time for dinner
Husband: Ok, I'll be right there









The exact details are already understood, just like my child knows that when you get something out to play with, you put it away when you're done. It's not as if he was just dropped into this family as a school age kid with no prior knowledge of how we do things.









Quote:

I do not believe you can be honestly and naturaly consistant.
I think I disagree (but I understand it in two ways and may be saying something very similar to your example). We have very few rules here, but they are mostly based on how we treat each other not behaviors like throwing. Of course throwing is appropriate in some situations, we just encourage our kids to stop and think if the situation they're in is one of those and why. Would throwing be respectful to the pastor speaking in church? Would throwing possibly hurt someone? Would throwing something else be a safe choice in this context? We guide them through it while in the situation and encourage thinking whenever possible. Secondly consistency for me also means that I'm careful about giving a redirection or a "no" because once it's been said I'm very rarely going back on it. Those rare moments I do are due to getting new information, not because my child is refusing to do what he's told because he doesn't feel like it or see the value in it. Consistency to me doesn't mean being rigid, just following through with what were already well understood and reasonable redirections/directions. (If it's a favor, it's worded as such and no follow through is warranted...it was a request).


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
My 2 1/2 year old can totally understand "I" versus "you." I don't think that happens by magic, I think it takes communication. So we communicate. I tell him where I am at, what I need, what I want, and he tells me. Sometimes one of us doesn't really know, so we ask for something that doesn't actually meet the need.

Sometimes we are at odds, sometimes we are in tune. But we do it together. My boundaries and limits change all the time (sometimes I feel like dtd, sometimes I don't want dh within 10 feet, sometimes I feel like going apple picking with ds, sometimes I feel like staying home), so I find it is best to just focus on keeping the lines of communication open.

I guess this is a little off from manipulation, because it is clear to me that people on this thread have different ideas of what that means, and there is a lot of miscommunication happening. What it comes down to is a philosophical approach. *If my goal is to get ds to do something, and he doesn't want to do it, then any tool that I use to get him to do it will be manipulation. If my goal is to come to a consensus about what our needs are, and how they can get met, then it doesn't feel manipulative*.


exactly! i feel like as long as i'm clear in the motivations of my request- or as clear as i can be then i'm not being manipulative. i don't think that's "head games" at all.

i am explaining my need and i am asking for help in achieving it. i never said i didn't have needs, wants, whims and desires. in fact i said the opposite. which is not being "selfish" it's being honest.

i think when you are direct with your kids and communicate your needs or the needs of the family without using manipulation (punishment/rewards) you teach them that is ok to have needs, wants, whims and desires and _how to express them appropriately_.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
To add to Devas - I also think , though this may just be plain obvious! lol, its also important to talk about it with your child. If a bike must be worn with a helmet, thats obvious safety reason, then I think its important to talk to your child about it. I only mention this because I know many of my friends have a 'because I say so' attitute and a 'well thats life - tough - live with it!' attitude...which I do not think is very healthy or helpful for the child and could turn into a potential manipulative situation.

Definitely. (I know that you were adding to my statement, not asking if I did explain







) My ds knows the safety reasons. And he cares about them (as much as a 4yo can). He just stops caring when they get in the way of what he wants in that specific moment. lol. That's when the "you can ride with a helmet, or leave your helmet off and not ride" comes along. But I do think that him knowing that I have a real reason, and knowing what that reason is, does help him with the fact that I'm setting a boundary that he might not really like.
(ftr, he's totally happy to wear his helmet every time he rides his bike now)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
So, for those who believe limits are not something parents need to set or enforce, how do they get learned?

That's not what I meant at all







. I don't think it's necessary to *create* arbitrary boundaries just for the sake of "giving dc boundaries." Actually, I don't agree with arbitrary boundaries (boundaries just for the sake of boundaries) at all. But what boundaries are real and what are not will vary from person to person.
I DO think it's necessary to let dc know the boundaries that exist, that I have, that others have. So I do enforce those, and spell those out for him.
If it is important *to me* to, say, have no toys in the kitchen, then I make sure ds knows that, and I find a (gentle, obviously) way to enforce it. And I think it's good for him to know that boundary, rather than see me getting upset and him not really knowing why, and just having a vague sense that it has something to do with him. I think he "likes" knowing what boundaries I have, so he's not just trying to figure it out on his own.

But I think it would be a bad idea to create that boundary (no toys in the kitchen) for someone who didn't care about it, but thought that "kids like boundaries, so here's one I can set for him." Or even someone who thought "Well other people have this rule, so I may as well have it too." Does that make sense?

I think it's basically true for partners too. I think it's important for a partner to know if their dp doesn't like for them to be out after midnight (example out of the air). But I don't think it's a good idea to create that boundary when it's not something that you naturally care about.

Quote:

so basically, i feel that i cannot be a good parent - i'm destined for screwing up no matter what i do!








eh, like my dp says, it doesn't really matter what I do in any given moment. I can screw up, and it will all be ok. As long as we try to be gentle, try to be considerate of our kids feelings, and for the most part we do a decent job of it, it's ok.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

OP here. Back to the blocks example...
several of you have mentioned that it's the mom who really wants it done. You can enlist the child's help in many different ways, but if the child says no then you just do it yourself. How can you do that to your child? (Asking in a puzzled way not trying to sound snarky, but maybe there is a touch of snark in there







)

I don't just want the blocks picked up because I like things tidy. I want dd to *learn* to clean up after herself because it is good for her to learn such a thing. It is good for her to learn that things have a place, things have order. Our brains like order, not chaos. I want to teach/discipline and if necessary *manipulate* (in the best sense of the word, not the dishonest sense) in order for her to learn how to take care of her/our things. When she grows up and goes to school/gets a job, I want to be sure she will have these skills.

Have you ever met a man whose mother never *made* or *manipulated* him into doing things around the house. I have met many men like this and they are not easy to live with. They may be the sweetest men ever, but they won't lift a finger around the house.

Or how about the college student who leaves home and doesn't know how to operate a washing machine or a dishwasher. These people exist, and it is really hard for them to function in the beginning because nobody ever taught them.

How about the young women who get married and don't know how to boil water? They will struggle a lot trying to learn to cook for her family.

I don't want my dd to struggle like that, nor do I want my ds (if I ever have a ds) to grow up like the men who never help around the house.

I think Ann mentioned about trusting that they will eventually follow you in your tidying up pursuit. Several posters have asked, in so many words, how do you have the confidence that you child will, at some point in their little life, decide they will clean up after themself?

Sorry, I just went off on an unexpected rant.

If you are basing it on the fact that all children want to fit in to a group, which i do agree with, that is not enough because most people are also lazy or want to take the easy way out if they can. I guess this is a personality issue. Some kids will naturally be helpers and some will naturally take the easy way out. Whichever kind of kid I end up having my job is to help them to be able to help themselves.

North of 60, I also like a more direct approach. I get your point. Although...I have been thinking about how to phrase things, and it makes my brain hurt. And when you mentioned parenting on eggshells, that's how I started feeling and I couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for wording it like that.

Heartmama, you are right, my examples were more for older kids. I appreciate you outlining, overall view, on the difference between the toddler GD and the older kid GD being more traditional. You gave me more to think about. Thanks.

Oh and one last thing. I say please and thank you to model it for her. I don't think she will misunderstand me. She will know whether it is a request or a statement.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I agree with you about modeling. That is where I focus my energy. In every aspect of my life. It is up to ds whether he ultimately prefers to be tidy - I know people who like tidiness and people who find it restrictive. I like to think I like a general level of tidiness in excess of the one that I usually live in! So picking up the blocks is modeling. I might even talk about why I like to pick up the blocks, unless it feels condescending.

FWIW, ds often doesn't want his toys picked up. Sometimes we have different needs in that area. He isn't resisting me, or not listening, or whatever. He likes having his toys out. I think he finds it comforting. In our family, as in most, we try to find a balance. My dh likes to have his feet sticking out of the bottom of the bed, I like the sheets tucked in. Etc.

Open communication is modeling, too. No one taught me that when I was a child - my parents were strict GD. I am still learning how to express my feelings, and respond to others.


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Several posters have asked, in so many words, how do you have the confidence that you child will, at some point in their little life, decide they will clean up after themself?

Yes, someone please answer this for me! I'm reading every post in this thread at least twice, and although they all make sense to me, I just don't see how it works long-term.

Yes, I can pick up the toys because it's MY need to have the floor clear. Or yes, I can leave the toys out because I recognize that it's not the end of the world to have toys on the floor and/or my DD has a need/desire to have them all out where she can see them. But eventually DD is going to trip on them and hurt herself, the cat will eat one and necessitate a pricey vet visit, or DH will get annoyed and vacuum them up. I guess I just don't see how cleaning them up myself or leaving them on the floor is helping anyone in the family. Can someone help me out?

And then I'm confused by all the talk about rules and boundaries... if I like a clean floor and tell my DD to pick up her toys before going outside, then I'm being manipulative to make her meet my need; but if it's a "rule" of the house that is "understood", then I'm giving a reminder instead? Is that right?

Please know there is zero snark in this post whatsoever... this is an area I am struggling with because I really do appreciate the difference from the GD changes I've made already and want to continue growing, but it's still a challenge to me.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
It is up to ds whether he ultimately prefers to be tidy

Sure.. when they move out. In the mean time, we share a common space, and it's really too darn bad if someone else doesn't _want_ to clean up. At the very least, I expect everyone to respect each other as room mates, and that includes not subjecting those around you to your messes. Of course there will be different expectations for different age groups, but the general concept of letting kids who want to be messy be messy is totally foreign to me.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
exactly! i feel like as long as i'm clear in the motivations of my request- or as clear as i can be then i'm not being manipulative. i don't think that's "head games" at all.

So, if expressing our desires, wants, and whims is Ok, why not just say "can you please help me pick up toys?". Someone said earlier that please was not an optimal choice because it expresses OUR want, as opposed to them doing it for their own reason. But, if expressing our wants is Ok, why just ask the question in the simplest, easiest to understand way?







:


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

If a person is okay with insisting that kids clean up because it is what mama wants, then that is that. If that person uses manipulation and is comfortable with it, then that is that.

I don't approach it that way. It is ds' house, as well as mine, as well as dh, and I guess we just focus a lot more on how to be positive and how to find solutions than on how to get one person to do something that someone else wants him to do. Period. Sometimes the house gets picked up, sometimes not. Sometimes that is okay, sometimes not. I guess it depends on what feels like a priority, what lesson I am modeling with my response to the situation. Modeling flexibility and mutual problem solving tends to be high on my list.

Every roommate I have ever had has agreed that household chores were a household responsibility; every roommate I have ever had has disagreed on what that entails, and when.

I don't feel that expressing my own desires is manipulative; I am surprised that others might feel that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking a child to participate in an activity that another family member wants, such as picking up the toys. I don't see that as manipulative. Maybe others do; I guess it's an intuitive thing.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
Yes, someone please answer this for me! I'm reading every post in this thread at least twice, and although they all make sense to me, I just don't see how it works long-term.

it cant work long term. because you have to consider your child's personal choice in this matter too. just because you are making him do it - doesnt mean 20 years down the line he will continue doing it. all you can do is try your best with love and respect from your end. but will it continue as they get older. you cant tell. it might happen. it might not. and it doesnt always work that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
Yes, I can pick up the toys because it's MY need to have the floor clear. Or yes, I can leave the toys out because I recognize that it's not the end of the world to have toys on the floor and/or my DD has a need/desire to have them all out where she can see them. But eventually DD is going to trip on them and hurt herself, the cat will eat one and necessitate a pricey vet visit, or DH will get annoyed and vacuum them up. I guess I just don't see how cleaning them up myself or leaving them on the floor is helping anyone in the family. Can someone help me out?

see the toy isnt the real issue here. you can replace that example with another example. its still the same thing. - how do i get my child to do something - expectations. for some reason after i had my dd calling myself a mom or calling her my dd felt more like a label. that i as a mom had an assumption of power and that she as a child - i was expecting or not expecting.

so for me the point became not to pick up the blocks. meaning she could say yes or no. i was willing to hear the no. for me what was most important was to connect with this little person in my life. find out why she is saying no. most importantly let her figure out what she wanted to do. give her the option to choose. find out what is going on with her at the moment. now i have been talking to my dd since she was an infant. repeat, repeat, repeat.

the key for me was the energy. words and body language are just extra. the moment there is manipulation in that energy whether your child is one or six they will pick it up. to me that is the most important language of connection.

so if i hear my dd say no i would really discuss with her - explore what she wants to do and then i would lay my cards on teh table and say with utmost love and respect why i wanted her to pick them up. and then i would hear her with my ears as well with my energy. somedays she REALLY didnt want to pick up those blocks. and so i would do it.

another day. same situation. we go thru those steps all over again.

another day same thing. we talk. discuss and she goes off to play and i end up picking up the blocks.

then on another day. a miracle. i dont even have to say anything to her. she picks it up by herself. not one word out of me. as she grows older and has more words she tells me - mom will you please pick up the legos for me. suddenly i am feeling v. tired and i need some rest.

i have had this situation played out in my house so so so many times. (of course one key factor - if my dd was tired, hungry or hadnt let out excess energy - then there is no point in asking her anything, she cant do it. she is going thru so much within herself that she cant listen).

to really connect from the heart. to really know our needs and allow our children to experience their needs - is the best gift i can give my dd for now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
And then I'm confused by all the talk about rules and boundaries... *if I like* a clean floor and tell my DD to pick up her toys before going outside, then I'm being manipulative to make her meet my need; but if it's a "rule" of the house that is "understood", then I'm giving a reminder instead? Is that right?

but what about ur dd's needs. just because she is a child and wants to maybe play is her need less important than yours. i am not being snarky here. i am just asking. giving u some food for thought. just because you have a need for say safety - that makes your need more important than hers? by insisting she do as you are told (hypothetical here, not saying htat is what u r doing) is actually indirectly telling her 'i dont care about ur needs. my needs are more important than yours'. get what i am trying to say? this works even with a two year old. and practically they are. but on a purely humane level is that really true? so by picking it up urself you are showing her that both ur needs matter. that she gets to play and u clean. i think i went thru this maybe a million time where mostly i heard no and sometimes yes.

the result today at 6 my dd and i can mostly come to an amicable solution as long as she has had enough rest, food in belly and got some exercise. we talk a lot. what has completely blown me away was that at her school they sat thru an enacted talk about what to do during bullying. all the points given were to avoid the one bullying at all costs. and my dd questioned - but what about the bully. everyone was concerned about 'saving' themselves from further pain. did anyone try to understand why the bully was behaving that way (she said it to me later on not in front of all the kids). she then spoke about the bully in the bridge to terabithia and how the girl was not really a bully but a v. v. hurt little girl.

on another note since this has been brought up let me say we are all selfish creatures. we are all doing things to fulfill certain needs we have. whether it is a need to help others or whatever it is. even mother teresa is selfish. she took care of all those people because she met her need for helping others and totally enjoyed the feeling of connection and joy she got. the same reason i am changing my profession now. because of the fulfillment i get even though it means going down a few notches than the previous job.

anything, ANYTHING that is said with the intent of getting things done no matter how the other party feels - be they a child or adult - to me that is a manipulation.

and yet where safety was an issue there was no choice. it was dangerous and there was no conversation. the end. that is only if she was in imminent danger. but those ocassions were few and far between. because even as a toddler i showed her why the knife was dangerous by poking her coz she wouldnt understand what danger meant and i couldnt describe it to her.

fascinating thread. lots of food for thought.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
I don't just want the blocks picked up because I like things tidy. I want dd to *learn* to clean up after herself because it is good for her to learn such a thing. It is good for her to learn that things have a place, things have order. Our brains like order, not chaos. I want to teach/discipline and if necessary *manipulate* (in the best sense of the word, not the dishonest sense) in order for her to learn how to take care of her/our things. When she grows up and goes to school/gets a job, I want to be sure she will have these skills.

Have you ever met a man whose mother never *made* or *manipulated* him into doing things around the house. I have met many men like this and they are not easy to live with. They may be the sweetest men ever, but they won't lift a finger around the house. ...

Oh and one last thing. I say please and thank you to model it for her. I don't think she will misunderstand me. She will know whether it is a request or a statement.

Actually (and I say this as the neater half in our home) there is a great book on mess and its benefits: http://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Mess-Hi...2997292&sr=1-1









I don't disagree with you that it is worth leading/teaching our children about how to respect things, others, and create order. I just disagree that this is a battle EVERY time or that very young children will be ruined by not doing it from time to time when their little hearts rebel. And I disagree with the idea that it is more important than other things.

My husband has a hard time with chores, in part because they were battleground in his home (mine as well, so different reactions to similar situations.) But he's a wonderful human being.

For me and my son, generally, tidying up goes well. My theory actually is that if I make a stand the times that it don't, he'll come to associate chores and cleaning up with conflict and power struggles and unhappy times and it will actually get harder, not easier.

I am not opposed to some factual statements like "you have to wash your hands" or sequencing ("we can't leave until you have clothes on.") But I try to evaluate each situation for whether it's worth that or not, and tidying up just... isn't, to me.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

OK, how do you, the "non-manipulators" (for lack of a better word!) get your children to do something...anything? it's quite obvious (in my house and with my child at least) that young children do what they want to do. my ds doesn't give a hoot about what i want *in the moment*. now, when it's done, he may see my face and realize that no, i did not want him to paint an exterior cream-colored board on our house barn red with oil-based paint, but in the moment, it's EXACTLY what he wanted to do. how do you get a child with their own agenda, desires, wants, needs to do ANYTHING? should we expect this of our children or is that disrespecting them? seriously...how do you get a child to stop acting like a monkey at the dinner table if that's HOW THEY WANT TO ACT? I don't want my son to act like a monkey. He apparently does. If I try to do ANYTHING to curb that behavior, am I not manipulating him? Why is this wrong - society does not really like it when monkeys come into restaurants, right? How am I helping him by allowing him to go down a bad road?
now, to me i'm reading here that in order to respect him, honor his wishes, get him to respect me, and have him turn out to be an honest person, i have to model "good person behaviors" and trust that he'll adopt them when he's ready because if i were to either tell him or ask him to do something, i'd be manipulating him and he'll maybe grow up to resent me? So as long as i continue NOT acting like a monkey at the dinner table, some day, he'll copy me and stop it himself. but until then, it must be endured so as not to turn him into an adult who resents the fact that i dampened his primal desires?







or he'll just act like a monkey at dinner when he's in his own home so as not to garner my disapproval?
i'm so confused here because i daily get asked or told to do something: someone rings their callbell for me at work (i'm a very part-time nurse), dh asks if i'd iron a shirt for him, ds says he's hungry and wants me to make him something. these are all very direct requests/demands made on me and i would not "resent" anyone for doing it. i mean, i guess if dh never lifted a finger to do a thing for me, i might resent it or as ds got older, if he never helped around the house but expected me to pick up after him i would. so, how do you teach a child the responsibilities of being a decent human being without having any expectations of them actually acting them out?
i said it earlier and i believe the OP and one other person have as well: there are people who go thru life happy as a clam to let others do things for them. like the people who leave mom's house not knowing how to wash clothes or cook a meal. mom always did it for them. so at what point do we stop relying on modeling and actually expect a child to either "listen to us" or just do it because they know it's the right thing or what the family does.
it seems wrong to have the following conversation with my 15 year old ds (fast forward 11 years!):

me: pick up your laundry and bring it to the laundry room because i'm washing the clothes now.

ds: not now, i'm having fun doing ______

me: i'll help you

ds: no, i'll do it later-OR-you can do it then (without regard for the fact that NOW is when i'm doing laundry or that it's HIS clothes that are being washed for him)

so, if this kind of dialogue is OK for toddlers, preschoolers, and whoever else- at what age (if ever) is it ok to expect more of our children? if we never make a request or demand or whatever on our own behalf - for our own benefit because WE are the one's doing the laundry or cleaning the bathroom or whatever, then how do we expect our children to learn it's ok to make requests or demands on their own behalf? to me, it seems we're wanting to make ourselves look selfless (i'll do it myself so as not to make a demand on you that you are not interested in having placed on you at this time) while wanting our children to take away from that that it's OK to assert their wants and desires at any given time - it's NOT ok to have someone tell you to do something and expect you to do it if you do not want to (unless it involves safety or a personal boundary?????).

i can't wrap my mind around it, so i'm not really seeing ds who is 4 do it either. please help me understand - i really really want to!


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Actually (and I say this as the neater half in our home) there is a great book on mess and its benefits: http://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Mess-Hi...2997292&sr=1-1









My husband has a hard time with chores, in part because they were battleground in his home (mine as well, so different reactions to similar situations.) But he's a wonderful human being.

For me and my son, generally, tidying up goes well. My theory actually is that if I make a stand the times that it don't, he'll come to associate chores and cleaning up with conflict and power struggles and unhappy times and it will actually get harder, not easier.

*I am not opposed to some factual statements like "you have to wash your hands" or sequencing ("we can't leave until you have clothes on.")* But I try to evaluate each situation for whether it's worth that or not, and tidying up just... isn't, to me.

This bold part is regarding sequencing. This is probably how I will handle things with my dd. If I understand correctly, some are saying that even sequencing is manipulation to get your child to do a certain thing. It seems we all have different views of what manipulation is...or maybe we can agree that it is manipulation, but some feel it is manipulation in the positive sense and some view it as negative. It's on a spectrum.

That book looks like a fun read and encouraging to those of us constantly battling the clutter!


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Meemee,
Thanks for all those specifics. I enjoyed reading about connecting and understanding your little one. I especially enjoyed the part about the bully. I am wondering how is your dd, who is now 6, doing? Does she do things when you ask her? Like what percentage of the time does she do things for you? I realize she is only six so I am not expecting much, nor am I meaning to put you on the spot. It's just that in order for me to have a complete shift in my thinking, I need to see a family who lives like this successfully. I know you said the goal isn't to get her to do things, so even my question is off the mark. Like Jackson's mama, I cannot get my brain around this and it goes against every fiber in my being. So why am I here asking? Because it sounds so lovely to live like this, but can it really work?
From other posts and on the cl yahoo group, I gather that in order for it to work you have to completely let go of any expectations of your child.

To Jackson's mama. From meemee's post she is saying she does explain why she wants her dd to pick up the blocks, over and over until it clicks and one day she does it with out any prompting. So, I guess in your monkey at the table issue you just explain that we are humans and humans don't act like monkey's at the table, over and over. But that would mean that you have to drop your expectations of your ds acting like a human!!!







That sounds funny, huh?


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Actually I did just tell myself today that I have to get certain things done around the house before I could go shopping. If I finish my chores and still have energy left, I can go to Bed Bath and Beyond and the mall. This is my way of prioritizing things and I believe my mom taught me this.
I know adults don't treat each other this way, but adults' character is already formed. Children are still learning and forming their character. Their work ethic is not formed yet.

I *don't mean to toot my own horn, but I wouldn't classify myself as a selfish person. I am reasonably generous and like to do things for others.* However, I was raised like this: As long as I did what was asked of me and followed the rules, I got privileges. If I misbehaved I got grounded or things taken away for a period of time. This didn't make me selfish as a previous poster said. And I never wondered how the punishment fit the crime, so to speak.

Sorry if I am all over the place. Many times I post late at night and half my brain is gone! I guess I am still not convinced that this style of parenting is going to create a selfish person who only does good to avoid bad things happening to themselves.

*After all, I do good because it makes me feel good. I am honest because it makes me feel good. I don't want to have a guilty conscience, therefore I do my best to avoid doing wrong things.*
Thanks to all of you for the input. It is helping me to formulate my thoughts a little.

The bold part: I want to take that back. I am selfish and I believe all people are by nature selfish. Doing good things because it makes ME feel good IS selfish. I guess I should say that on the outside I appear to be generous because i do things for people. But my whole point was related to a pp (can't remember who) said something about people turning out selfish due to a particular style of parenting. I think it was related to reward/punishment stuff---can't find the post that I am referring to, sorry. This is probably an insignificant post, but it was bothering me.


----------



## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
And then I'm confused by all the talk about rules and boundaries... if I like a clean floor and tell my DD to pick up her toys before going outside, then I'm being manipulative to make her meet my need; but if it's a "rule" of the house that is "understood", then I'm giving a reminder instead? Is that right?

I think those are ideas from two different schools of thought so they can't really be compared. The second is more my style, so I would not recognize the first as 'change by unfair means for my own selfish gain.' We just do things in the way that makes the most sense for the family as a whole. A clean floor, for us, benefits the household for a number of reasons.









The word manipulation has a negative connotation built into the definition because part of the definition itself is about intent. My intent is not selfish, in fact it would be easier and less time consuming for me to just clean up myself!







But I suppose one could say I'm coercive to an extent because when it comes down to it I do recognize myself as an authority. My role as an authority is primarily to put the needs of others above my own and to empower my children. It's service, not domination, and that is how I view teaching these skills. My methods are more playful and we don't use punishment, I don't use force or "threats", but when a direction is given it is given with the expectation that it will be completed (using whatever playful or creative methods are required to get the job done







).


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *popsicle sticks* 
I think those are ideas from two different schools of thought so they can't really be compared. The second is more my style, so I would not recognize the first as 'change by unfair means for my own selfish gain.' We just do things in the way that makes the most sense for the family as a whole. A clean floor, for us, benefits the household for a number of reasons.









The word manipulation has a negative connotation built into the definition because part of the definition itself is about intent. My intent is not selfish, in fact it would be easier and less time consuming for me to just clean up myself!







*But I suppose one could say I'm coercive to an extent because when it comes down to it I do recognize myself as an authority. My role as an authority is primarily to put the needs of others above my own and to empower my children. It's service, not domination, and that is how I view teaching these skills. My methods are more playful and we don't use punishment, I don't use force or "threats", but when a direction is given it is given with the expectation that it will be completed (using whatever playful or creative methods are required to get the job done







).*


Wow, well put. This I can understand and hope to become.


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Thank you all so much for continuing this discussion, especially Meemee and popsicle sticks for spelling it out for me.








Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Does she do things when you ask her? Like what percentage of the time does she do things for you? I realize she is only six so I am not expecting much, nor am I meaning to put you on the spot. It's just that in order for me to have a complete shift in my thinking, I need to see a family who lives like this successfully. I know you said the goal isn't to get her to do things, so even my question is off the mark. Like Jackson's mama, I cannot get my brain around this and it goes against every fiber in my being. So why am I here asking? Because it sounds so lovely to live like this, but can it really work?
From other posts and on the cl yahoo group, I gather that in order for it to work you have to completely let go of any expectations of your child.

Ditto those questions. Do we have to give up all expectations we have of other people? I just envision this turning into the stereotypical "mom does everything and nobody does anything to help" situation. In fact, it seems like everyone eventually needs "help" from someone else to meet all of their needs, so I'm wondering how compromise enters into the picture.

My head is spinning, but in a good way!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
OK, how do you, the "non-manipulators" (for lack of a better word!) get your children to do something...anything? it's quite obvious (in my house and with my child at least) that young children do what they want to do. my ds doesn't give a hoot about what i want *in the moment*. now, when it's done, he may see my face and realize that no, i did not want him to paint an exterior cream-colored board on our house barn red with oil-based paint, but in the moment, it's EXACTLY what he wanted to do. how do you get a child with their own agenda, desires, wants, needs to do ANYTHING? should we expect this of our children or is that disrespecting them? seriously...how do you get a child to stop acting like a monkey at the dinner table if that's HOW THEY WANT TO ACT? I don't want my son to act like a monkey. He apparently does. If I try to do ANYTHING to curb that behavior, am I not manipulating him? Why is this wrong - society does not really like it when monkeys come into restaurants, right? How am I helping him by allowing him to go down a bad road?

I don't really know if I qualify as a non-manipulator. (There are so many definitions of that in this thread.) But I do try to approach things from as non-coercive a mode as possible.

First, I disagree that kids inherently want to do their own thing. In my experience kids do want to do their own thing - SOME of the time. At other points in time they desperately WANT to do what's "right" or what mummy and daddy do. I believe there is a whole learning process where at times kids act positively to test what happens and at times negatively to test what happens.

I believe this is biologically wired into human beings, because that is how kids would learn to hunt, gather, etc., plus live in tribes, for survival purposes.

I actually believe that sometimes - cleaning is my big example - we disrupt the process either by trying to enforce age-inappropriate things which just creates a sense of frustration and unhappiness, or by at times not hearing what's really going on underneath.

Taking the restaurant as an example:

I haven't really seen that many adults get up from the table and try to run their toy trains across the rug in a restaurant, so I'm not at all concerned that this is a lifelong habit. I truly believe I could do nothing for at least 6 years (probably much longer) and my child could still turn out fine where restaurant behaviour is concerned. Peer pressure at 15, for example.









But I do agree it's not okay - it's not safe, primarily, and it's not respectful, secondarily. (Both are important.)

However I don't say "behave at the restaurant and you'll get a toy on the way home." To me that's manipulation. It's artificially engaging something I know is motivating for my child (at least for ten minutes) in order to create behaviour I want, without actually tying it in to the reality of the situation.

We behave at the restaurant to behave at the restaurant. If we can't behave at the restaurant, then we might have to leave so as not to ruin the night for other people.

But I don't make behaviour at the restaurant relate to anything else. Even if I have to leave the restaurant, we can go to the park afterwards. I am not willing to withhold other things to ensure good behaviour at the restaurant. I AM willing to leave the restaurant if it's not working.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heather8* 
Thank you all so much for continuing this discussion, especially Meemee and popsicle sticks for spelling it out for me.







Ditto those questions. Do we have to give up all expectations we have of other people? I just envision this turning into the stereotypical "mom does everything and nobody does anything to help" situation. In fact, it seems like everyone eventually needs "help" from someone else to meet all of their needs, so I'm wondering how compromise enters into the picture.

My head is spinning, but in a good way!









My son's 3 and he clears the table every night. I've never asked him to.









But in all seriousness I have two nephews and a niece who used to help their mum out all the time. Then they got a stepparent who demanded that they do the dishes (the kids) EVERY night. Suddenly, their willingness to participate in the chores vanished and now every night is an argument over whose turn it is, etc.

I think there is a necessity that everyone pitch in. But I think how that is achieved has a LOT to do with the relationships between everyone.


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## CarsonBookworm (Sep 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 

I think there is a necessity that everyone pitch in. But I think how that is achieved has a LOT to do with the relationships between everyone.

Completely agree with you there!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

hey shami - no you are not putting me on the spot at all. you are just asking how i parent works or not.

here is first of all why i do what i do. i am a square in a hole. i have never fit in anywhere. i was too much of a rebel with too much out of the box thinking. i was raised where i didnt matter. what mattered was what my parents thought. i tried to stay an individual but it wasnt 'safe'. too much emotional torture (not saying my parents were bad but they were just doing what they had been taught to do). it was safer to deny myself and do what others said. so i am assuming from when i was a baby i gave up the battle. today i still struggle to figure out what my needs are. i am still afraid to spend time with myself doing deeper into what my opinions are what matters to me. i am afraid of meeting my true self. i struggle to keep a uncluttered house. i struggle to do housework. for instance my mom insisted i do the dishes right after dinner. i prefered to do it early in the morning and put them away before anyone got up (we did them by hand). i still remember the boiling rage.

my dd is also a square peg in a round hole. she is also v. independent. and i didnt want her to suffer my pain. even though i always knew my parents loved me - even with love i didnt want to be the authoratative figure. i did not want my daugh to do things because i said so. i wanted her to do things because she felt she needed to do it.

here is what i say to her everytime i ask her to do something - every single time (it is borrowed from another parent):

_"please grant my request only if u can do it with a feeling of joy and only if it will make ur world more wonderful.

please do not grant my request if you have any sense of duty or obligation.

please do not grant my request if you would be doing so out of a fear of punishment or hope of reward."
_
i have been using this v. recently and now she parrots it with me - but u should see the look of sheer delight on her face.

does she do everything - no. do i expect her to do everything - no. do i have a problem with her saying no - no. because i find out the reason behind her no. what is she feelign and needing. and i understand and do it myself. it is a partnership. many times i dont even have to ask her anything. she does it herself. or she will herself volunteer mama my tummy hurts (i trust and believe her). can u do this for me or can i do this later. or mama i dont really feel like doing it now. the outdoors are calling me. (how do u say no to the call of the outdoors LOL). so i say oooh i like that. now the outdoors are calling me too. lets go out and play right now and then we'll come back and you can quickly finish it before we start dinner because i have to do a lot.

but the v. key is make sure you are truly giving them a choice. to take all manipulation out of your voice. they pick up on it.

when i do want something to be done i dont ask her. i explain to her why it has to be done. u drop juice on the carpet - there is no waiting. the panic in my voice sets her off to get the kitchen towel. no explanation needed.

i feel we truly are a team. i am also a single mom with just her and me in the house. she hates going to school but she says herself 'i understand i have to. neither you nor me have a choice in this.' and yet on her really low days i have let her play hookey. and she herself told me at the end of the day - i know mama i cant do this every day but it has been such a fun day. i really loved having a break from school.

and yet last week - she completely lost it and threw a huge tantrum kicking and hitting me. and i just lay on the bed quietly and held her. she fell asleep. she had been up late the night before and after school she was dead tired.

so shami in a sense i really welcome her no. it gives me a perspective to her world. sometimes she offers the no before even i ask her.

in my perspective we work as a team. i really really enjoy how we work together.

anything more i say would be i feel the words of a biased mom. but all my friends and her school teachers have always commented on how well behaved she is and how she always asks them and lets them know when she is having a problem with something. both her k and grade 1 teacher have told me when they talk to her they have to remind themselves they are talking to a child and not a grown up.

also one thing i have found helpful to both of us is me talking and explaining the why and using all those words. for me it helps me not to make it a demand. i did it from when she was a baby. she would go everywhere with me as i did my chores and i would explain why i was doing it. everytime i made just a one sentence request i noticed it came out as a demand. that was a quick check for me to realise i was taking out my frustration on my dd and just that realisation would calm me down.

3s and 4s were terrible for my dd. poor child she really struggled. i noticed the basis of her struggle was to figure out if she wanted to be babied or be a big girl. heck i made mistakes trying to figure out which ones she wanted to be at the moment and it would make her sooo mad. the way the struggle came out was thru her need for autonomy. sometimes she needed help with her shoes. sometimes she didnt. even as a 4 year old she has hours after the tantrum was over (i had forced something on her when it was a safety issue. i dont remember now what it was), after blaming me for doing something she didnt like, hitting me with hurtful words; screaming and crying and throwing up - much later she told me how i was right. how she knew at that time i was right but she didnt like she didnt get her own way and that the monster in her had to come out and she wanted to stop it but she couldnt. to me that was sooooo huge. and that moment so precious.

i dont know how much of who my dd is i can claim she is because of the way i raised her. she herself is a v. sensitive nurturing person always wanting to connect with people.

i carry a lot of pain from my childhood blaming others. i dont want her to do that. i want her to understand no one causes her pain except herself. and the way i parent is a tool by which she is responsible for her own feelings. by really connecting to the other people trying to figure out why they said what they did she recognises how much in pain they themselves are in and so not take it personally.

YIKES!!! this has become longer than i expected.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

The last two days with my ds is probably a good example of the different ways that being non-manipulative can go (because I try not to punish/reward/manipulate but I am quite fine with coercing and being "in charge").
Ds helped me clean the bathroom. Not just a little bit of wiping, he helped me with the tub, the counter, the sink, the mirror, the toilet, and the floor. And he really did help- he was really scrubbing and wiping, and doing his best to clean. He helped from 1 minute after I started, until the entire thing was totally clean. I didn't ask him to help, and didn't say anything to encourage him to stay longer than he wanted.
He also helped me with laundry, and actually folded a half a load all by himself (me just giving instructions).

Otoh, I asked him to pick up his toys yesterday and he didn't. And I got a tiny bit








:. (I cleaned the whole floor the day before, and really was hoping it would stay nice for more than half a day). I told him that everything that I had to do myself was going "up high." He still chose not to help







.
I was ok because instead of putting everything where it belongs, I put it all in a tote and put it away. Not my finest parenting moment, eh?

But I've been thinking recently that maybe it's just hard for him to pick up his toys (I always help). So we made a chore list for him, and he picked the chores. So if my need is to have help around the house, that would meet my need for help just as well as picking up toys, and it would be something that ds will be happier doing. maybe...we'll see...


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

To the OP:

Regarding the examples in your second post--it is important to me that ds grow up to be the kind of young adult who has internalized specific habits, such as money management, basic home organization, self care, and pet care (to name a few).

I agree with you that these skills require active teaching. These are skills which many young people lack and I agree that is a problem.

When ds was very little, teaching him was very indirect. It was all about him just being witness to the way things were done. He was just watching, absorbing, processing what he saw around him. At that stage he was such a wild little guy, I often actually preferred that he didn't involve himself in what I was doing (dishes, laundry, whatever). In hindsight I should have done more to welcome and involve him in chores, but I was young and learning a lot for the first time myself.

Around age 6 or 7 we introduced more traditional chore learning. We focused on the fun, game playing quality to chores, we always did them together, and we focused on fairness and building a sense of comptency. To avoid resistance, dh and I had a "chore time" and during that time we only engaged with chores--if ds wanted to be with us he had to work with us. We made sure he felt included and welcomed and praised for his efforts.

At this age (12) I find it is more important than ever that I lead by example. Chores are never, ever connected to rewards or punishments. They are always put in a practical context. Always. The purpose of the chore is the whoe point of doing it. For example: Ds has pets. Let's say it is time to feed them dinner. Let's say he whines and says he is tired. I might respond with "Yes, it is late. You are tired. Although I know you wouldn't want to miss dinner because someone was too tired to feed you, right?". I will give him some dialogue to help him focus. If ds really were to resist, I would do the chore, saying something like "Well, I think we have a responsibility to make sure our pets are fed and comfortable. If you won't feed them, the job still has to be done. Pets won't stop needing food because we are tired. This is your chore, not mine. However, if you refuse to do it, someone else has to do it for you. That isn't fair to me, and definitely isn't fair to the animals". The most critical part of that is that I don't just huff and scowl and do it myself with a "FINE, I'll do it!!" resentful attitude...it is critical that you seize that teachable moment to verbally explain your thoughts and then clearly demonstrate your point. You are building up a world view for your child to carry with them through life. It doesn't matter if they 'get it' every second of every day. It matters that over time, you see they are 'getting it', gaining competency, gaining consistency, building up a mature, thoughtful attitude about why they engage in chores and other skills you help them learn. You should be gaining a sense that your children are engaged and learning. Then the bad days and mistakes won't feel important.

To teach ds money management, I asked if he wanted to learn the skill. I offered him a certain amount of money each month, not connected to any work, but given for the purpose of learning to manage money. Conditions were put on the money if he wanted to play this 'game'. He has a bill to pay once a month, for a set amount. He must set aside and save that amount to pay his bill on time. If he is late, the amount of the bill increases (like it would in real life). He is expected to save a certain amount each month, until he reaches a set goal. The rest of the money is his to spend any way he wants.

Ds does not HAVE to learn this. He was offered the choice, and to make it enticing I offered real money. He can get real money other ways. This was a separate offer. I waited until he was this age (12) to make sure he had the maturity to learn life long lessons from the experience.

Just a few examples from our life....


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Actually (and I say this as the neater half in our home) there is a great book on mess and its benefits: http://www.amazon.ca/Perfect-Mess-Hi...2997292&sr=1-1









I don't disagree with you that it is worth leading/teaching our children about how to respect things, others, and create order. I just disagree that this is a battle EVERY time or that very young children will be ruined by not doing it from time to time when their little hearts rebel. And I disagree with the idea that it is more important than other things.

*My husband has a hard time with chores, in part because they were battleground in his home (mine as well, so different reactions to similar situations.) ]But he's a wonderful human being.

For me and my son, generally, tidying up goes well. My theory actually is that if I make a stand the times that it don't, he'll come to associate chores and cleaning up with conflict and power struggles and unhappy times and it will actually get harder, not easier.*

I am not opposed to some factual statements like "you have to wash your hands" or sequencing ("we can't leave until you have clothes on.") But I try to evaluate each situation for whether it's worth that or not, and tidying up just... isn't, to me.


yes! to this especially with regard to how kids learn to clean up after themselves, chores etc. and about chores becoming power struggles or unhappy times.

i think that if kids see _everyone_ in the family participating in the general operation of a home then they learn that it just "is".

all the little kids i know like to sweep or "fold laundry" or throw toys or clothes into a basket. if a kid doesn't want to help with laundry for example maybe it's just been a power struggle one too many times or maybe it's just boring and he's ready to move onto the next step. in that case i might say something like 'quick, grab your dirty clothes. today i'm going to show you how to run the washer' and then i would show him how to set the washer and how to pour the soap. i'd get a chair and let him do it. engage him in the next more interesting step.

like i've said i have a one year old so what do i know.. and admittedly i think doing laundry is a really fun thing to do!









when i was a kid we had a huge garden but all my dad would ever have us do was weed. he'd set us to a spot and get us weeding every single time we wanted to help. he weeded too but he also got to plant stuff and pick things. i think if he had let us plant and harvest and shared w/ us ALL the aspects of tending the garden it would have been a lot more enticing to be out there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
If a person is okay with insisting that kids clean up because it is what mama wants, then that is that. If that person uses manipulation and is comfortable with it, then that is that.

I don't approach it that way. It is ds' house, as well as mine, as well as dh, and I guess we just focus a lot more on how to be positive and how to find solutions than on how to get one person to do something that someone else wants him to do. Period. Sometimes the house gets picked up, sometimes not. Sometimes that is okay, sometimes not. I guess it depends on what feels like a priority, what lesson I am modeling with my response to the situation. Modeling flexibility and mutual problem solving tends to be high on my list.

Every roommate I have ever had has agreed that household chores were a household responsibility; every roommate I have ever had has disagreed on what that entails, and when.

I don't feel that expressing my own desires is manipulative; I am surprised that others might feel that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking a child to participate in an activity that another family member wants, such as picking up the toys. I don't see that as manipulative. Maybe others do; I guess it's an intuitive thing.

yes to this also. i don't view my word as the be all, end all. i think of myself more as a guide/teacher/leader. my job is to pass on my experience not to inflict my will. part of that job is maximizing the joy of cooperation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
I agree with you about modeling. That is where I focus my energy. In every aspect of my life. It is up to ds whether he ultimately prefers to be tidy - I know people who like tidiness and people who find it restrictive. I like to think I like a general level of tidiness in excess of the one that I usually live in! So picking up the blocks is modeling. I might even talk about why I like to pick up the blocks, unless it feels condescending.

FWIW, ds often doesn't want his toys picked up. Sometimes we have different needs in that area. He isn't resisting me, or not listening, or whatever. He likes having his toys out. I think he finds it comforting. In our family, as in most, we try to find a balance. My dh likes to have his feet sticking out of the bottom of the bed, I like the sheets tucked in. Etc.

Open communication is modeling, too. No one taught me that when I was a child - my parents were strict GD. I am still learning how to express my feelings, and respond to others.

totally agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
So, if expressing our desires, wants, and whims is Ok, why not just say "can you please help me pick up toys?". Someone said earlier that please was not an optimal choice because it expresses OUR want, as opposed to them doing it for their own reason. But, if expressing our wants is Ok, why just ask the question in the simplest, easiest to understand way?







:

i was the one who said it wasn't necessary to say "please" and in thinking about what you wrote i see what you are saying. but sometimes to me it just sounds condescending.

i had a boss who was insistent that every time we sold a certain candle it was immediately replaced on the sales floor. meanwhile, there were a dozen others like it right there next to it so it was a personal whim not because she was worried about missing a sale on the item she just didn't like see the empty space. so, anytime she happened up to the sales floor and she saw an empty space she'd say "can someone PLEASE replace the candle that sold!?" it bugged the CRAP out of me.







i would have had a ton more respect for her if she had simply stated "hey, would you grab a candle from the back for the front table." instead of this imperious patronizing "please" question which made it into almost a personal attack.

i guess i'm just projecting my own issues with that word onto my interactions w/ my child.









manipulation ISN"T expressing our wants in the simple most straightforward way. asking a question to get our needs met isn't straightforward. saying "we can't go to the park unless you pick up the toys" isn't straightforward.


----------



## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
hey shami - no you are not putting me on the spot at all. you are just asking how i parent works or not.

here is first of all why i do what i do. i am a square in a hole. i have never fit in anywhere. i was too much of a rebel with too much out of the box thinking. i was raised where i didnt matter. what mattered was what my parents thought. i tried to stay an individual but it wasnt 'safe'. too much emotional torture (not saying my parents were bad but they were just doing what they had been taught to do). it was safer to deny myself and do what others said. so i am assuming from when i was a baby i gave up the battle. today i still struggle to figure out what my needs are. i am still afraid to spend time with myself doing deeper into what my opinions are what matters to me. i am afraid of meeting my true self. i struggle to keep a uncluttered house. i struggle to do housework. for instance my mom insisted i do the dishes right after dinner. i prefered to do it early in the morning and put them away before anyone got up (we did them by hand). i still remember the boiling rage.

my dd is also a square peg in a round hole. she is also v. independent. and i didnt want her to suffer my pain. even though i always knew my parents loved me - even with love i didnt want to be the authoratative figure. i did not want my daugh to do things because i said so. i wanted her to do things because she felt she needed to do it.

here is what i say to her everytime i ask her to do something - every single time (it is borrowed from another parent):

_"please grant my request only if u can do it with a feeling of joy and only if it will make ur world more wonderful.

please do not grant my request if you have any sense of duty or obligation.

please do not grant my request if you would be doing so out of a fear of punishment or hope of reward."
_
i have been using this v. recently and now she parrots it with me - but u should see the look of sheer delight on her face.

does she do everything - no. do i expect her to do everything - no. do i have a problem with her saying no - no. because i find out the reason behind her no. what is she feelign and needing. and i understand and do it myself. it is a partnership. many times i dont even have to ask her anything. she does it herself. or she will herself volunteer mama my tummy hurts (i trust and believe her). can u do this for me or can i do this later. or mama i dont really feel like doing it now. the outdoors are calling me. (how do u say no to the call of the outdoors LOL). so i say oooh i like that. now the outdoors are calling me too. lets go out and play right now and then we'll come back and you can quickly finish it before we start dinner because i have to do a lot.

but the v. key is make sure you are truly giving them a choice. to take all manipulation out of your voice. they pick up on it.

when i do want something to be done i dont ask her. i explain to her why it has to be done. u drop juice on the carpet - there is no waiting. the panic in my voice sets her off to get the kitchen towel. no explanation needed.

i feel we truly are a team. i am also a single mom with just her and me in the house. she hates going to school but she says herself 'i understand i have to. neither you nor me have a choice in this.' and yet on her really low days i have let her play hookey. and she herself told me at the end of the day - i know mama i cant do this every day but it has been such a fun day. i really loved having a break from school.

and yet last week - she completely lost it and threw a huge tantrum kicking and hitting me. and i just lay on the bed quietly and held her. she fell asleep. she had been up late the night before and after school she was dead tired.

so shami in a sense i really welcome her no. it gives me a perspective to her world. sometimes she offers the no before even i ask her.

in my perspective we work as a team. i really really enjoy how we work together.

anything more i say would be i feel the words of a biased mom. but all my friends and her school teachers have always commented on how well behaved she is and how she always asks them and lets them know when she is having a problem with something. both her k and grade 1 teacher have told me when they talk to her they have to remind themselves they are talking to a child and not a grown up.

also one thing i have found helpful to both of us is me talking and explaining the why and using all those words. for me it helps me not to make it a demand. i did it from when she was a baby. she would go everywhere with me as i did my chores and i would explain why i was doing it. everytime i made just a one sentence request i noticed it came out as a demand. that was a quick check for me to realise i was taking out my frustration on my dd and just that realisation would calm me down.

3s and 4s were terrible for my dd. poor child she really struggled. i noticed the basis of her struggle was to figure out if she wanted to be babied or be a big girl. heck i made mistakes trying to figure out which ones she wanted to be at the moment and it would make her sooo mad. the way the struggle came out was thru her need for autonomy. sometimes she needed help with her shoes. sometimes she didnt. even as a 4 year old she has hours after the tantrum was over (i had forced something on her when it was a safety issue. i dont remember now what it was), after blaming me for doing something she didnt like, hitting me with hurtful words; screaming and crying and throwing up - much later she told me how i was right. how she knew at that time i was right but she didnt like she didnt get her own way and that the monster in her had to come out and she wanted to stop it but she couldnt. to me that was sooooo huge. and that moment so precious.

i dont know how much of who my dd is i can claim she is because of the way i raised her. she herself is a v. sensitive nurturing person always wanting to connect with people.

i carry a lot of pain from my childhood blaming others. i dont want her to do that. i want her to understand no one causes her pain except herself. and the way i parent is a tool by which she is responsible for her own feelings. by really connecting to the other people trying to figure out why they said what they did she recognises how much in pain they themselves are in and so not take it personally.

YIKES!!! this has become longer than i expected.

it sounds like a lovely relationship you have with your daughter. how wonderful!


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
The last two days with my ds is probably a good example of the different ways that being non-manipulative can go (because I try not to punish/reward/manipulate but I am quite fine with coercing and being "in charge").
Ds helped me clean the bathroom. Not just a little bit of wiping, he helped me with the tub, the counter, the sink, the mirror, the toilet, and the floor. And he really did help- he was really scrubbing and wiping, and doing his best to clean. He helped from 1 minute after I started, until the entire thing was totally clean. I didn't ask him to help, and didn't say anything to encourage him to stay longer than he wanted.
He also helped me with laundry, and actually folded a half a load all by himself (me just giving instructions).

Otoh, I asked him to pick up his toys yesterday and he didn't. And I got a tiny bit







:. (I cleaned the whole floor the day before, and really was hoping it would stay nice for more than half a day). I told him that everything that I had to do myself was going "up high." He still chose not to help







.
I was ok because instead of putting everything where it belongs, I put it all in a tote and put it away. Not my finest parenting moment, eh?

But I've been thinking recently that maybe it's just hard for him to pick up his toys (I always help). So we made a chore list for him, and he picked the chores. *So if my need is to have help around the house, that would meet my need for help just as well as picking up toys, and it would be something that ds will be happier doing. maybe...we'll see...*

right! i like this. i mean -_you make compromises_. i have a need for my house to be spotless but the reality is i also have a need and love for my husband and child so the house just won't be spotless. oh well. bin it all and move on.
my mom was pretty good about this kind of thing. she liked the living room tidy but we could pretty much have our own rooms as messy as we liked (no food). if jackets and books and toys were sitting around the living room for awhile she would get irritated with it but she'd simply say "hey kids, chuck you stuff in your room, would you?" we'd know that the living room was a mess and she was getting antsy with it. she was satisfied with the compromise and we didn't have power struggles over tidying up. i don't remember ever flat out saying "no" i mean, really, why would i?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
hey shami - no you are not putting me on the spot at all. you are just asking how i parent works or not.

here is first of all why i do what i do. i am a square in a hole. i have never fit in anywhere. i was too much of a rebel with too much out of the box thinking. i was raised where i didnt matter. what mattered was what my parents thought. i tried to stay an individual but it wasnt 'safe'. too much emotional torture (not saying my parents were bad but they were just doing what they had been taught to do). it was safer to deny myself and do what others said. so i am assuming from when i was a baby i gave up the battle. today i still struggle to figure out what my needs are. i am still afraid to spend time with myself doing deeper into what my opinions are what matters to me. i am afraid of meeting my true self. i struggle to keep a uncluttered house. i struggle to do housework. for instance my mom insisted i do the dishes right after dinner. i prefered to do it early in the morning and put them away before anyone got up (we did them by hand). i still remember the boiling rage.

my dd is also a square peg in a round hole. she is also v. independent. and i didnt want her to suffer my pain. even though i always knew my parents loved me - even with love i didnt want to be the authoratative figure. i did not want my daugh to do things because i said so. i wanted her to do things because she felt she needed to do it.

here is what i say to her everytime i ask her to do something - every single time (it is borrowed from another parent):

_"please grant my request only if u can do it with a feeling of joy and only if it will make ur world more wonderful.

please do not grant my request if you have any sense of duty or obligation.

please do not grant my request if you would be doing so out of a fear of punishment or hope of reward."
_
i have been using this v. recently and now she parrots it with me - but u should see the look of sheer delight on her face.

does she do everything - no. do i expect her to do everything - no. do i have a problem with her saying no - no. because i find out the reason behind her no. what is she feelign and needing. and i understand and do it myself. it is a partnership. many times i dont even have to ask her anything. she does it herself. or she will herself volunteer mama my tummy hurts (i trust and believe her). can u do this for me or can i do this later. or mama i dont really feel like doing it now. the outdoors are calling me. (how do u say no to the call of the outdoors LOL). so i say oooh i like that. now the outdoors are calling me too. lets go out and play right now and then we'll come back and you can quickly finish it before we start dinner because i have to do a lot.

but the v. key is make sure you are truly giving them a choice. to take all manipulation out of your voice. they pick up on it.

when i do want something to be done i dont ask her. i explain to her why it has to be done. u drop juice on the carpet - there is no waiting. the panic in my voice sets her off to get the kitchen towel. no explanation needed.

i feel we truly are a team. i am also a single mom with just her and me in the house. she hates going to school but she says herself 'i understand i have to. neither you nor me have a choice in this.' and yet on her really low days i have let her play hookey. and she herself told me at the end of the day - i know mama i cant do this every day but it has been such a fun day. i really loved having a break from school.

and yet last week - she completely lost it and threw a huge tantrum kicking and hitting me. and i just lay on the bed quietly and held her. she fell asleep. she had been up late the night before and after school she was dead tired.

so shami in a sense i really welcome her no. it gives me a perspective to her world. sometimes she offers the no before even i ask her.

in my perspective we work as a team. i really really enjoy how we work together.

anything more i say would be i feel the words of a biased mom. but all my friends and her school teachers have always commented on how well behaved she is and how she always asks them and lets them know when she is having a problem with something. both her k and grade 1 teacher have told me when they talk to her they have to remind themselves they are talking to a child and not a grown up.

also one thing i have found helpful to both of us is me talking and explaining the why and using all those words. for me it helps me not to make it a demand. i did it from when she was a baby. she would go everywhere with me as i did my chores and i would explain why i was doing it. everytime i made just a one sentence request i noticed it came out as a demand. that was a quick check for me to realise i was taking out my frustration on my dd and just that realisation would calm me down.

3s and 4s were terrible for my dd. poor child she really struggled. i noticed the basis of her struggle was to figure out if she wanted to be babied or be a big girl. heck i made mistakes trying to figure out which ones she wanted to be at the moment and it would make her sooo mad. the way the struggle came out was thru her need for autonomy. sometimes she needed help with her shoes. sometimes she didnt. even as a 4 year old she has hours after the tantrum was over (i had forced something on her when it was a safety issue. i dont remember now what it was), after blaming me for doing something she didnt like, hitting me with hurtful words; screaming and crying and throwing up - much later she told me how i was right. how she knew at that time i was right but she didnt like she didnt get her own way and that the monster in her had to come out and she wanted to stop it but she couldnt. to me that was sooooo huge. and that moment so precious.

i dont know how much of who my dd is i can claim she is because of the way i raised her. she herself is a v. sensitive nurturing person always wanting to connect with people.

i carry a lot of pain from my childhood blaming others. i dont want her to do that. i want her to understand no one causes her pain except herself. and the way i parent is a tool by which she is responsible for her own feelings. by really connecting to the other people trying to figure out why they said what they did she recognises how much in pain they themselves are in and so not take it personally.

YIKES!!! this has become longer than i expected.

I really like the way you and your dd relate. It had me thinking about the ways I use manipulation with my own 4 yr old dd and how I could stop doing this. My dd could handle all the words and explanations used in this approach. My 2 yr old ds, however, is not a word person and would not to well with long explanations. When I am being a "good" mom I usually use long explanations with dd and playful parenting with ds.
Disrespect is big to me though. I HATE making something for dd only to have her complain that it is not "big enough, small enough etc" In those moments I sometimes yell "I am so frustrated and resentful right now, I don't like doing things for you when all I hear are complaints!" Then sometimes I add "please stop complaining and tell me what you want a different way" Actually, I yell "Im getting frustrated, angry..." a lot when i need to blow off steam. I guess it does imply that she is the cause of my negative feelings and she needs to do something about them.
How do I express my anger honestly with no strings attached?
How did you handle the whining and complaining of the early years?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
How do I express my anger honestly with no strings attached?
How did you handle the whining and complaining of the early years?

with me its hitting. and turns me into a yeller. so i make mistakes a lot.

here is what i did when hitting was becoming too much for me. (she had stopped and it started again when she started K - and there was a lot of challenging stuff happening in our personal life - so i could understand where her frustration was coming from). the first thing i did was take a timeout myself. i would tell her i need to put some distance between us otherwise i would start yelling. and i would go into the bathroom and crib to myself. just talk in my head of all the frustration. and spending that energy i was able to come back - by which time my dd had lost her steam too.

one time i yelled at her telling her 'you make me so mad and frustrated. you are just not listening to me.' and she told me - mom why dont u first see what is going on in ur life that is making you angry. are u truly angry with me. and whooosh all my anger just fizzled out. she was right. her friend had given her the talk on we being responsible for our emotions and no one else.

but still the hitting didnt stop. till one day i sat with her after she had cried and we were cuddling and i told her how much her hitting and kickign brought up the nightmare i went thru when i was slapped by my dad. i told her he didnt really beat me up but once in a rare while he would slap me (esp. when he quit ciggarettes cold turkey) that hurt more emotionally rather than physically. and slowly the hitting stopped.

the thing again is not the words that you use but the energy that u use. the intonation in the voice. when you see the anger rising just tell her you need some space to let the anger out. she will recognise that hey mommy feels the same way - and a good way of handling it. i have never hidden my emotions from my dd - anger, sadness or frustration or even tears.

aaaaah the whining. warning. i might not have any good suggestions because i have a high tolerance of whining and complaining. plus i noticed it was her way of asserting autonomy. perhaps she wasnt getting enough recognition that she plays a part in the family too. so i would suggest chores she could do. even if she wasnt confident i would encourage her to do it saying if she failed i would help her clean up or take care of the result.

but most of the 'bad' behaviour i notice always happen around 4 things. growth spurt. not enough food in the belly. not enough sleep. or not enough running around. even at 6 those are still v. v. important. whenever she threw a huge tantrum - a major one - from 18 months to now - one of those factors was responsible.

plus my motivation itself. i have mental illness on both sides of her family. my dd is v. independent and v. sensitive and a true free spirit. having lost my only sibling to suicide my key aim from when i was pregnant was to make sure emotionally i was there for my dd. so my tolerance level was v. v. high. plus i have noticed how exh's childhood totally messed up his life.

gotta run. put child to bed. hope this helps.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
with me its hitting. and turns me into a yeller. so i make mistakes a lot.

here is what i did when hitting was becoming too much for me. (she had stopped and it started again when she started K - and there was a lot of challenging stuff happening in our personal life - so i could understand where her frustration was coming from). the first thing i did was take a timeout myself. i would tell her i need to put some distance between us otherwise i would start yelling. and i would go into the bathroom and crib to myself. just talk in my head of all the frustration. and spending that energy i was able to come back - by which time my dd had lost her steam too.

one time i yelled at her telling her 'you make me so mad and frustrated. you are just not listening to me.' and she told me - mom why dont u first see what is going on in ur life that is making you angry. are u truly angry with me. and whooosh all my anger just fizzled out. she was right. her friend had given her the talk on we being responsible for our emotions and no one else.

but still the hitting didnt stop. till one day i sat with her after she had cried and we were cuddling and i told her how much her hitting and kickign brought up the nightmare i went thru when i was slapped by my dad. i told her he didnt really beat me up but once in a rare while he would slap me (esp. when he quit ciggarettes cold turkey) that hurt more emotionally rather than physically. and slowly the hitting stopped.

the thing again is not the words that you use but the energy that u use. the intonation in the voice. when you see the anger rising just tell her you need some space to let the anger out. she will recognise that hey mommy feels the same way - and a good way of handling it. i have never hidden my emotions from my dd - anger, sadness or frustration or even tears.

aaaaah the whining. warning. i might not have any good suggestions because i have a high tolerance of whining and complaining. plus i noticed it was her way of asserting autonomy. perhaps she wasnt getting enough recognition that she plays a part in the family too. so i would suggest chores she could do. even if she wasnt confident i would encourage her to do it saying if she failed i would help her clean up or take care of the result.

but most of the 'bad' behaviour i notice always happen around 4 things. growth spurt. not enough food in the belly. not enough sleep. or not enough running around. even at 6 those are still v. v. important. whenever she threw a huge tantrum - a major one - from 18 months to now - one of those factors was responsible.

plus my motivation itself. i have mental illness on both sides of her family. my dd is v. independent and v. sensitive and a true free spirit. having lost my only sibling to suicide my key aim from when i was pregnant was to make sure emotionally i was there for my dd. so my tolerance level was v. v. high. plus i have noticed how exh's childhood totally messed up his life.

gotta run. put child to bed. hope this helps.

Thanks, You've given me some good things to think about- I really appreciate the response.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 

"please grant my request only if u can do it with a feeling of joy and only if it will make ur world more wonderful.

please do not grant my request if you have any sense of duty or obligation.

please do not grant my request if you would be doing so out of a fear of punishment or hope of reward."

And to me, that is the epitome of passive aggressive manipulation. I cannot ever imagine saying that to anyone. Child or adult. If an adult said that to me I'd probably stop dead in my tracks out of confusion. First, I'd have to interpret it. It's clear that someone wants me to do something, but whether they truly mean I do it for my own reasons, or whether they're using that as a leveraging tool is unclear. I'd take it as passive aggression, which is not something that gets me to do stuff.

I know modeling behavior is a big thing here, and I'm curious to know what you think you're modeling by talking like that? To me it models indecisiveness - you want help but you're too afraid to just ask for it. Fear of rejection - it seems like a buffer because asking a question and having "no" be the response seems undesirable so the question is phrased in a convoluted way.

And the general message it sends is one of self absorption. The only reason one should ever help others is because it gives _themselves_ a sense of joy? I don't understand the merits of such self serving motives. There's really only two reasons that people help others - because they know it will be appreciated, which is a selfless motive. Or because they receive internal gratification, with is a self serving motive. Both are totally fine, but I think the key is striking a balance between the two. I would not want my child to do things ONLY to serve others any more than I want her to do things ONLY to serve herself.


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
And to me, that is the epitome of passive aggressive manipulation. I cannot ever imagine saying that to anyone. Child or adult. If an adult said that to me I'd probably stop dead in my tracks out of confusion. First, I'd have to interpret it. It's clear that someone wants me to do something, but whether they truly mean I do it for my own reasons, or whether they're using that as a leveraging tool is unclear. I'd take it as passive aggression, which is not something that gets me to do stuff.

I know modeling behavior is a big thing here, and I'm curious to know what you think you're modeling by talking like that? To me it models indecisiveness - you want help but you're too afraid to just ask for it. Fear of rejection - it seems like a buffer because asking a question and having "no" be the response seems undesirable so the question is phrased in a convoluted way.

And the general message it sends is one of self absorption. The only reason one should ever help others is because it gives _themselves_ a sense of joy? I don't understand the merits of such self serving motives. There's really only two reasons that people help others - because they know it will be appreciated, which is a selfless motive. Or because they receive internal gratification, with is a self serving motive. Both are totally fine, but I think the key is striking a balance between the two. I would not want my child to do things ONLY to serve others any more than I want her to do things ONLY to serve herself.









:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I actually do that with my dp. I ask him if doing x for me would bring him "great joy" (ok, I say it that way because it's funny to me). But I really mean it- I only want him to do something for me because he wants to, not because he feels like he "has" to because I asked.
If he says "not really" that's totally fine with me (maybe that's the biggest point of it- that there really is no fear of unhappiness in any way as a result of not doing it). But sometimes he says it would, and he does it. I think that doing something nice for others does sometimes bring people joy.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm fine with my kids doing something just because I told them it needs to be done. The short term goal, the practical priority, is the task at hand. I don't think too much about their motives, because how can I really know them for sure? I'm happy to explain why they're told to do it, I can help make it more fun, and they don't have to pretend they are happy to do it or even hide that they don't want to.

Quote:

How do I express my anger honestly with no strings attached?
How did you handle the whining and complaining of the early years?
I'm careful to be honest about how I feel, but I try not to word anything or act in a way that would imply that my feelings are someone else's fault. Let's say my child breaks something. The object is now broken and that is his doing, _not_ that I'm upset about it. He can focus on cleaning up, trying to fix the item, or whatever the situation calls for because that is what you do when you break something...he doesn't need to try to manage or fix my emotions for me.

As for whining and complaining, I might help the child express how he's feeling instead or say yes I understand you're feeling ____. That seems to have helped in the long term. Sometimes it seems like they just have to complain...I guess I do that too sometimes.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
I think that doing something nice for others does *sometim*es bring people joy.

Sure it does. But is that really the _only_ reason you should help others? To me that implies that a sense of obligation is a bad thing. I think learning about obligations is important.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Oh, yeah. I was just saying that saying something like that doesn't automatically make it manipulative.
I do insist that ds do certain things, so I'm not arguing against that.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
And to me, that is the epitome of passive aggressive manipulation. I cannot ever imagine saying that to anyone. Child or adult. If an adult said that to me I'd probably stop dead in my tracks out of confusion. First, I'd have to interpret it. It's clear that someone wants me to do something, but whether they truly mean I do it for my own reasons, or whether they're using that as a leveraging tool is unclear. I'd take it as passive aggression, which is not something that gets me to do stuff.

I know modeling behavior is a big thing here, and I'm curious to know what you think you're modeling by talking like that? To me it models indecisiveness - you want help but you're too afraid to just ask for it. Fear of rejection - it seems like a buffer because asking a question and having "no" be the response seems undesirable so the question is phrased in a convoluted way.

And the general message it sends is one of self absorption. The only reason one should ever help others is because it gives _themselves_ a sense of joy? I don't understand the merits of such self serving motives. There's really only two reasons that people help others - because they know it will be appreciated, which is a selfless motive. Or because they receive internal gratification, with is a self serving motive. Both are totally fine, but I think the key is striking a balance between the two. I would not want my child to do things ONLY to serve others any more than I want her to do things ONLY to serve herself.

see the big thing here is her age. i just started doing this maybe two weeks ago and she is 6.

yes i am totally propogating self absorbtion. and no i certainly am against a selfless motive. in my books nothing is a selfless motive. if it is selfless then you are denying urself. that to me doesnt make it a selfless motive. everything we do is because it meets something in us - some need - at some point of time. and that's all i am asking my dd to do. is to meet her need. i want her to do it because she feels good by connecting with me by fulfilling my request. the focus becomes the two of us rather than the request. rather than what the issue is - whether it is to pick up the blocks or do her homework or set the table for dinner.

to me it certainly isnt passive aggressive. i want her to do things because she wants to help me. i want her to do it NOT because i am in authority and i am telling her but because she wants to. of course its about the joy within. its the same reason why i want her to do anything. not because of rewards or fear. but because she wants to do it. for instance she has to do homework. she has no choice. and instead of fighing it and feeling sad about it which she did the first few weeks, she decided it wasnt that big a thing to get upset about. she recognised even i didnt have a choice with it. i dont have to make her do her homework. she does it herself. it was her choice. not mine.

it works VERY well in our house. in fact she reminds me to say it if i ever forget. because when i ask her to do something it is understood she has the right to say no. but because i explain the reason why i am asking her - say her friends family is coming over with a young child - she picks up the blocks out of love and concern for her friend's sister. she to date has never said no whenever there has been a safety issue.

the thing i am trying to get here esp. with young kids - is to find out what is going on with them before you ask them to pick up the blocks. to take their needs into consideration too. not just my needs as a mom. just like you have a partnership with ur coparent, it should be a partnership with children too. if we look into our own lives we find we are kinder to our spouses than our children.

i mean when i was exploring my values i was like that. i had this drilled in notion that my child had to do what i said because i was teaching them to be model 'citizens' (for lack of a better word). i found i had expectations for my child and i had to be kinda strict to make her do them. when dd was 2 and i was suddenly struck by the words i used with her - my expectations. worse i found my dialogue with her dad before we separated was much more kinder than my conversation i had with her. i mean do u tell ur spouse if you dont hang your wet towel then you cant go out and play tennis. then why do it to our kids.

the key is when our children say no - actually for that matter anyone - read whats between teh lines. and see why they say no. guide them to find teh reasons why they said no. my dd does not always have the answers. so i make suggestions of what her needs and feelings would be and we go back and forth and kinda try to find the reasons behind it. of course now that she is 6 she finds words easy. but at 2 i would say the words. in her language.

have you seen that subway commercial with the no's? if the no's were'nt so big we wouldnt have that commercial.

of course a sense of obligation is a 'bad' thing in my book. i mean we do it. but with what energy do we do it with. it is kinda use of force. no one should feel obligated. i associate obligation with coersion, a sense of duty. and that is unacceptable in my world. maybe i am utopian but i will try my level best to create the kind of world i want to live in and raise my child in. to me thoughts and actions are the same thing. i am now struggling to control my thoughts (doesnt mean i am fully succeeding of course) because my thoughts control my unspoken language. and children pick up more of the unspoken language than the said words.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I really get what meemee is saying. Perhaps it resonates more because of the guilt that grew from my own childhood experiences. I feel a catch in my spirit when I attempt to control my kids through illogical consequences or emotions (my def. of manipulation). It ends up making us all angry and it feels disrespectful. I can't go as uncoercive as meemee does but her ideas have really helped center me back to my own ideals as a mom.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i want her to do it NOT because i am in authority and i am telling her but because she wants to.

Do you think this is a slippery slope, in that this approach has the potential to be manipulative when the parent subtly tries to convince the child it's their idea, or by making them _want_ to do it through other means. For example, expressing why the request is important to the parent. I mean why mention "why" unless to insinuate that is reason to help.

Also, you haven't really responded to the idea that asking simple requests enables children to learn how to appropriately say no. If everything is about internal motivation and meeting needs and basing when and how you do stuff on whether or not you _want_ to do it, when does the child learn to say "I don't want to do that right now because...", and how they do learn that sometimes that response is inappropriate if _wants_ are the only determining factor? When is that modeled? And when do they learn to make compromises, or how to negotiate? If everything is as simple as "I don't _want_ to, Ok that's fine", do you think the opportunity to learn those tools (compromises and negotiations) is lost? Why not?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

aaaah north of 60 yes yes yes. it can indeed be a slippery slope.

yes yes the 'why' can become an insuniating gesture.

and that's why there is an internal as well as external process to this whole approach. and that's why the energy you are using - your intent - is the most important. you have to be certain that you are not subtely manipulating the situation. which is why i never make my request when i am angry. it always comes out subtely manipulative where i really offer no choice. that is why i give myself a time out and empathise with myself and when i feel the shift within me, when it no longer is the thing that is bugging me but a deep honest desire to really know what is going on within the other person i come out and talk to her.

well i do make simple requests when i can express my needs in another way. sometimes i even make silent requests. and i just look at my dd (even at 2 she could understand this) where i am and she usually does it. i have many silent requests esp. when i am at other peoples houses esp. when my dd was younger to make sure she asked first. like when there is a bowl of coloured glass rocks on the table i give her the look as a followup to our conversation before.

wait are u asking why dont i make a simple request without using that quotation. because when i do my dd brings me the note and asks me to read it to her.

it isnt at all about wants at all. its all about needs and feelings. which expressing them becomes a means of compromise and negotiation. it isnt as simple as i dont want to - ok that's fine (sometimes it IS that when i can read between the lines and know what's going on). what has actually been said is i need rest because i am feeling v. tired. and i said oh ok that's fine but i would really appreciate it if u did it later.

the more u express the easier it gets to make compromises and negotiations - without denying the self.

i have an excellent example with my friend. i was knee deep in my clutter clearing and was really inspired by how it was going. a friend asked me to go to a movie and of course i said no. and then i rethought and i remember how really i am not saying no. i told her how i was finally clearing and that maybe later in a couple of hours or so i could go. and by teh way she quickly said yes i knew she had been hurt by the no.

but it still didnt feel right. i went back to clearing and something didnt sit well with me. i couldnt tell what it was. so i called her back and asked her to tell me exactly what's going on. to spill the beans. she is going thru a messy divorce. and she said she was going thru a v. dark time. she had already gone for a walk and it hadnt lifted. she explained she realised she really needed some company without really a conversation. so i quickly took a shower and headed over there immediately.

see it started off all about the movie. that was the story. if she had been completely honest with me (she was struggling with being a burden asking too much) i wouldnt have had to think.

what is most important to me - my most deep felt need is honesty. honesty from within not false honesty.

last night when we went to bed we realised the pillows were still on the chair. after making the bed we hadnt put them back on the bed. we had turned off the light and were all cozy inside (had our first rain and it was cooold). so i made a request to my dd could she please bring the pillows. and she said no because she was feeling sleepy and needed rest. yeah my first reaction was mad. and then she asked can you get it? and i said well i am feeling all warm and cozy. my feet were finally warm and i didnt want to step out into the cold air. my need for warmth had been met. so then we talked about strategy and came to a compromise. i was willing to let her use my arm as a pillow and i was willing to go without a pillow.

to me there is a big difference between want and need. need is essential. a need is a call from the heart. a want is a desire. a want is a strategy. ur need might be hunger and so u want an apple to fulfill that hunger.

in my world the words - i dont want to do that right now because .... is never an inappropriate statement because that person is helping me see what's is making them say that. what is alive at them at the moment. to me that is important. that is the key i want to know. whether that thing gets done or not is not my main motivation (the thing always gets done). my biggest motivation is to learn what is going on in their world and what is it that they are feeling or needing. THAT is the beginning of negotiations. we both first check in where we are - so negotiating and then we come up with strategies that meets both our needs - which is the compromise.

sometimes with close friends or family there is no need for negotiating because we know certain needs are so important to them that the other person would automatically fulfill the request without any conversation. growing up we had the unspoken rule between my brother and me that if one of us had the cat on our lap the other person did all the 'action'. the request could come either from the person with the cat on the lap or our parents. of course this situation could become manipulative. and my bro could command me like a king or i could do the same. we never did. i did it out of love and connection with my brother. i did it for inner joy. i did it not to please my brother but because it met an inner need of mine.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i think i see what you are saying North of 60.

if we're talking tricks and tips on how to get kids to comply with requests then meemee's scenario would be a slippery slope because then the goal of her statements would be to _persuade_ her daughter to comply.

but, i think what meemee is saying is that she isn't really concerned about the _result_-meaning the fulfillment of the request. she is fine if her daughter says "no". that she would prefer a "no" from a place of authenticity rather than a "yes" from a place of obligation.

i could be totally way off but that's how i read it.









in my mind there isn't manipulation going on because her ultimate goal is to teach her daughter to be true to her own feelings- which is selfish/self-absorbed but in a different way.

i'm having a hard time articulating why this kind of selfish/self-absorbed (a good kind) is different than the selfishness (bad kind) that comes about from punishment/reward/ manipulation. but i'll try anyway....

in meemee's case she is teaching her daughter the joy in saying "yes" and that it is ok to say "no" too if that is how you truly feel. her daughter is learning that no one _makes_ her feel a certain way- it is up to the daughter to decide how she feels about things and that she is who controls her emotions.

with punishment/rewards/manipulation those feelings are inflicted from an external source so the child grows up believing that everyone else is responsible for her success/failure/happiness/unhappiness and therefore all of her actions would then be based on the pleasure or displeasure of other and how they would _make her feel_.

i *think* meemee and i have similar ideals and values.









you don't teach a child to share by being stingy. you teach them to give by giving them enough to feel abundant. it is the same way with emotions and acts of the spirit.

i believe when a person has been allowed appropriate boundaries as a child he is more likely to do "good" things than "bad" things. he has learned self determination and how to create appropriate boundaries for himself. thus he will operate from a place of positivity and as a result he is more likely to be cooperative and helpful and respectful of other people. he has a strong sense of self and so he has more to give and gives freely. when a child is manipulated to do/be good i think what he learns is self preservation and how to avoid "pain" -which doesn't leave a lot left of himself to truly give.

and this is just my opinion i don't think meemee said anything about this but i also think part of learning/teaching boundaries is allowing my-self to have them too!

back to the block/park issue. (oh no, not that scenario again!) if toys all over the house are irritating to me and there's a constant power struggle over them not being picked up before leaving the house- maybe ds and i need work out a compromise about where toys are "ok" laying about and where they are not- toys all over the playroom fine, toys all over the living room not fine. controlling the environment ( the irritation) rather than trying to control the child.

i think my brain just exploded....


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

meemee- we cross posted but i totally get what you are saying!

it is all about honesty. authenticity. the need versus the want and the intent of language.

i like your example with your friend.

and i like the "i don't want to do that right now..." as a totally honest statement and as a starting point to negotiation/understanding.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
For example: Ds has pets. Let's say it is time to feed them dinner. Let's say he whines and says he is tired. I might respond with "Yes, it is late. You are tired. Although I know you wouldn't want to miss dinner because someone was too tired to feed you, right?". I will give him some dialogue to help him focus. If ds really were to resist, I would do the chore, saying something like "Well, I think we have a responsibility to make sure our pets are fed and comfortable. If you won't feed them, the job still has to be done. Pets won't stop needing food because we are tired. This is your chore, not mine. However, if you refuse to do it, someone else has to do it for you. That isn't fair to me, and definitely isn't fair to the animals". The most critical part of that is that I don't just huff and scowl and do it myself with a "FINE, I'll do it!!" resentful attitude...it is critical that you seize that teachable moment to verbally explain your thoughts and then clearly demonstrate your point.

heartmama, first off, I have to say I love your posts in GD.

However, I'm struggling with this. If it were me in this situation, I would tend more to the punitive. After stating the bit about 'Our pets require care and love even if we're tired, as you do (which I liked BTW!)' I would move into 'Fine, if you don't want to take care of your pets, we will need to find a family who will'.

Especially at age twelve, I think they're more than old enough to just do something that requires doing. At age five, not so much. However, sometimes I think all this discussion and negotiating leads to ambivalence. If you are doing his chore for him, without repercussions - he learns that someone else will do what requires doing.

It's not like we have this option with regards to our children (and before I am jumped on, yes I realize that's a stretch). We talk all the time about how adults have free choice to do as they please, but there are certain expectations around behaviour.

This is a very interesting discussion. I will say, for the record, that we are a very GD household. We do not hit or yell, and I try to avoid manipulation. But here, there is *definitely* 'you do A or B will not occur' or 'if you continue to do A - then B will occur'.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
but, i think what meemee is saying is that she isn't really concerned about the _result_-meaning the fulfillment of the request. she is fine if her daughter says "no". *that she would prefer a "no" from a place of authenticity rather than a "yes" from a place of obligation.*

i think my brain just exploded....









LOL!!!! yup sticky you totally got me









woah u explained it better than i could. i just need to use a hundred thousand words to express what you could express in one sentence.









yup yup my brain is exploding here too.









this is the first time i am putting my way of parenting on paper and its driving me







:

the part i bolded is what i want to hear from everyone - not just my dd. oooh i cant get over sticky how beautifully you put that.







:


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
she is fine if her daughter says "no". that she would prefer a "no" from a place of authenticity rather than a "yes" from a place of obligation.

And here is the crux of the issue - what is wrong with obligation? No one has explained to me what is so detrimental about anyone - child or adult - being obligated to do something.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nursemummy* 
heartmama, first off, I have to say I love your posts in GD.

However, I'm struggling with this. If it were me in this situation, I would tend more to the punitive. After stating the bit about 'Our pets require care and love even if we're tired, as you do (which I liked BTW!)' I would move into 'Fine, if you don't want to take care of your pets, we will need to find a family who will'.

Especially at age twelve, I think they're more than old enough to just do something that requires doing. At age five, not so much. However, sometimes I think all this discussion and negotiating leads to ambivalence. If you are doing his chore for him, without repercussions - he learns that someone else will do what requires doing.

It's not like we have this option with regards to our children (and before I am jumped on, yes I realize that's a stretch). We talk all the time about how adults have free choice to do as they please, but there are certain expectations around behaviour.

This is a very interesting discussion. I will say, for the record, that we are a very GD household. We do not hit or yell, and I try to avoid manipulation. But here, there is *definitely* 'you do A or B will not occur' or 'if you continue to do A - then B will occur'.

I agree there's a huge difference depending on age.

I can definitely see a situation where I would get to that point. I would just want to work for quite a while - in the order of months - before I got there.

First I would do the original steps (Secret of Parenting talks about this a lot) - I would state my unhappiness at the situation and feed the pet.

The reason I'd do this is that I've noticed with my nephew (and my son, but my nephew is 9) that my expressing my unhappiness often changes his behaviour - the next time. At the very moment of the first conflict he is often totally unwilling to back down. I prefer not to feed into that mode - either way. (Total compliance or total backing down.)

I don't really want him to learn that to engage me he just has to dig his heels in. Also, quite often our conflicts are not about what needs to happen, but when it needs to happen.

Second, if I found myself doing the chore/thing all the time, then I would sit down with him and say it was not working and could he think up a way to remind himself. We would make a big list and decide which solutions were acceptable to us both and then which one we would try.

It would only be after trying a few solutions that I would move towards the "if you can't feed your pet then&#8230;" mode.

I basically believe that whenever a punishment comes out, there's been a failure along the way&#8230; for me it should be the last resort (if at all), not the first.

My son's young but I've found with things like the dishes, the less pressure I put on him, the most willingly he does it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
And here is the crux of the issue - what is wrong with obligation? No one has explained to me what is so detrimental about anyone - child or adult - being obligated to do something.

I truly think it depends on the spirit in which it is done - the relationship - and the timing.

I used to walk home from school for about 40 minutes. I was also frequently bullied most of the way home.

As soon as I came in the door the demands would start (if my stuff had not been pitched out onto the lawn already). My mother's belief was that I had to do chores first, so it didn't matter if I was tired or upset or just needing a bit of downtime. It was do the chores or else. There was no room for negotiation. No space even to express those feelings had I been able to find the words.

As a result, as a teen, I frequently didn't come home and got into unsafe situations. I learned that for my mother a clean and tidy home (which incidentally was impacted by her hoarding) was way more important than I was. I seriously internalized that message.

To this day I fight the queasy, overwhelmed feeling I get coming in the door of my own home. I didn't learn "hey, everyone does chores," I learned "chores are worth screaming, yelling, punishing, disrespecting, throwing you out about." That didn't make me have a balanced view. In fact for a few years I had such a bad feeling about chores that my home was really disorganized.

Growing up home was not a warm and loving and safe place, it was a place of obligation. I did not learn that "chores needs to be done so let's do them together," I learned "chores are a thing that come down on you from above." There was no flexibility, no love, no responsiveness. It was very consistent. And very cold.

I do think doing chores together is a part of living together. I just think it is a conversation, not a demand. I do want my son to pick up his trains. I don't want to get into whether they are picked up at 4:15 or 6:25.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nursemummy* 
heartmama, first off, I have to say I love your posts in GD.

*However, I'm struggling with this. If it were me in this situation, I would tend more to the punitive. After stating the bit about 'Our pets require care and love even if we're tired, as you do (which I liked BTW!)' I would move into 'Fine, if you don't want to take care of your pets, we will need to find a family who will'.

Especially at age twelve, I think they're more than old enough to just do something that requires doing. At age five, not so much. However, sometimes I think all this discussion and negotiating leads to ambivalence. If you are doing his chore for him, without repercussions - he learns that someone else will do what requires doing.
*
*It's not like we have this option with regards to our children (and before I am jumped on, yes I realize that's a stretch). We talk all the time about how adults have free choice to do as they please, but there are certain expectations around behaviour.*

This is a very interesting discussion. I will say, for the record, that we are a very GD household. We do not hit or yell, and I try to avoid manipulation. But here, there is *definitely* 'you do A or B will not occur' or 'if you continue to do A - then B will occur'.


oh i hear you! that would bug me too BUT (and i'm not heartmama so forgive me for interjecting my humble opinion here where it wasn't asked for







) why say it like that?
why go to the punitive? unless it really stresses you out to care for the pets and you really don't want to do it why even suggest giving the pets away? if you are really just tired and it's one more thing that mom has to do and it makes your day that much longer and the request for help is coming from that why not just say THAT? why make it the pets fault or the child's fault? why not say- i could use your help in feeding the pets. i'm tired and i have xyz to do too.
and if your child says "well, i'm tired and i don't want to either" then maybe it's time to decide as a family if having a pet is a priority. and that is a separate conversation not said with malice or anger or held over the kid's head as a punishment. it comes up when your intention is clear-

"i don't like being the only one who feeds the dog it adds a lot to my day and i feel overwhelmed with all the chores. can we make a schedule for dog feeding so it's more fair?"
kid says "no"
"ok then if i don't want to feed the dog and you don't want to either do we really want a dog? because that's part of having a pet"
"yes. i want the dog!"
"ok then how about you clean up the kitchen or you set the table or you take xyz chore so then i'm not too tired and then i'll feed the dog."
"no. i'm not trading chores mom. you have to do it all"
"well i'm not ok with doing it all so the only solution i see is to give the dog to someone who is willing to do the things that doggies need- feeding, etc. "

it's not a punishment- it's a solution. or a consequence, i guess. there does come a time when a child needs to understand consequences for not fulfilling their responsibilities. it's not punitive. it's reality. with the pet scenario the reality is living things require food if no one feeds it it will go bye bye- either it will die or before it gets to that point it will be removed and given to someone who can care for it. twelve seems old enough to *get* that and they probably will still need reminders. younger than that i don't think so.

we do have that option regarding our children. luckily most adults are responsible enough to care for their children. but some aren't and they are met with the "consequences" of their choices.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:

it's not a punishment- it's a solution. or a consequence, i guess.
Yes - I agree. And I agree with what GuildJenn wrote too (thank you BTW!)

I absolutely don't mean I would launch into 'the pet is going' right away, but I do think that as adults, as humans, we do reach points where something has to change.

I could not go months (perhaps weeks) of 'No, I'm not feeding the pet mom' and continue to do it myself. There would be a serious intervention first.

We would try and address all the issues surrounding feeding the pet, rationally first - but I also would not be afraid to well, assert my authority.

In these discussions I often hear 'It would never get to that point, children inherently want to help, be part of the family, etc.' but I also think its' fair to discuss what happens when we reach that point of noncompliance.

I hope that's not considered a red herring (is that the appropriate phrase?)

For me, I have reached that point before, and have seen other parents as well. I don't think it's too far fetched. Some children do dig in their heels for the long run, what do you do then?


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I truly think it depends on the spirit in which it is done - the relationship - and the timing.

I used to walk home from school for about 40 minutes. I was also frequently bullied most of the way home.

As soon as I came in the door the demands would start (if my stuff had not been pitched out onto the lawn already). My mother's belief was that I had to do chores first, so it didn't matter if I was tired or upset or just needing a bit of downtime. It was do the chores or else. There was no room for negotiation. No space even to express those feelings had I been able to find the words.

As a result, as a teen, I frequently didn't come home and got into unsafe situations. I learned that for my mother a clean and tidy home (which incidentally was impacted by her hoarding) was way more important than I was. I seriously internalized that message.

To this day I fight the queasy, overwhelmed feeling I get coming in the door of my own home. I didn't learn "hey, everyone does chores," I learned "chores are worth screaming, yelling, punishing, disrespecting, throwing you out about." That didn't make me have a balanced view. In fact for a few years I had such a bad feeling about chores that my home was really disorganized.

Growing up home was not a warm and loving and safe place, it was a place of obligation. I did not learn that "chores needs to be done so let's do them together," I learned "chores are a thing that come down on you from above." There was no flexibility, no love, no responsiveness. It was very consistent. And very cold.

I do think doing chores together is a part of living together. I just think it is a conversation, not a demand. I do want my son to pick up his trains. I don't want to get into whether they are picked up at 4:15 or 6:25.

I'm sorry your childhood was stressful like that, but your sharing it sort of makes a point for me. I think there are "extremes" on both ends of the spectrum. In order to to understand what method is preferable it helps me to think of why the alternative is not desirable. In this case, it's abusing obligations, and being manipulative and coercive. And while your situation is unfortunate, it doesn't exemplify the type of obligations I'm referring to. Asking my 2.5 year old to help me pick up toys before we can go to the park is not even remotely similar to pitching her stuff out into the yard and being completely unaware of bullying.

So with that, I pose the question again - why are obligations wrong? Why is it wrong to say "please pick up your toys or we can't go to the park". Why is it wrong to forgo the reasons and explanations when phrasing questions in favor of simply stating what you want to happen?


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

i'm agreeing with north of 60 here...how is having a sense of obligation a bad thing? i understand it's a different ballgame when it's an issue in a household where there are parents threatening to throw all your possessions on the lawn if they aren't put away properly by 3:35 pm. that's not what the majority of us are dealing with though, are we?
i mean, i am not joyfully cooking dinner tonight. there is really no joy in it whatsoever. i am OBLIGATED to make dinner so that i and my children will not go to bed hungry. i did not joyfully make the bed this morning and it is not with a joyful heart that i will shower tonight. everything i do is either an obligation to myself, my family/friends, or some part/all of society. i'm with north of 60 re: if we are constantly encouraging our children to only do what they want/feel like/feel joyful about/whatever, how do they learn that there are obligations in life? it seems we are setting the course for an adult who has a difficult time completing a project on time when it's "mandated" by a boss because said adult "didn't feel like it" at the time or didn't want to spend their time THAT way on that given day, or just didn't feel passionate about THAT specific project. are all of our kids supposed to be self-employed? tell me i'm wrong, please!
also, i'm not sure who responded to me stating that children inherently DO want to do what we want them to do (sorry). i'm confused. so are you saying that my ds WANTS to do the right thing but that 9/10 times he just doesn't know how or doesn't think about it or what? b/c in my house, it seems that for the most part, he's ALL about HIMSELF. i'd like to BALANCE his sense of self with a sense of respect for others and it seems we're just coming up with two extremes of either being super focused on self or being punitive and "manipulative" in some attempt to "get our way".


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama*
b/c in my house, it seems that for the most part, he's ALL about HIMSELF.

I'm sure how old he is, but my daughter is 2.5, and I've come to the conclusion that toddlers are pretty egocentric. They don't have the reasoning capacity to be empathetic or understanding of other people's feelings, so having some long winded conversation about picking up blocks is practically pointless.

What she does understand are processes. Short ones. If I say we need to do A before we can do B, she understands that. What I'm hearing is that putting things into a process can be manipulative, though I haven't really read a reason why that makes logical sense yet.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

well, that's weird! that was me you quoted, but it said "guildjenn". hmmm, anyway, he's 3 yrs 11 mos. i totally agree with the egocentric phase. so am i "correct" in saying that he is in a developmental stage where he seems to want to make himself happy - even at the expense of the family? it seems that way to me, but maybe i'm reading him wrong. an earlier poster said that children naturally want to please, and while i can see that he's happy when he's "made" me happy, i don't think he's at an age where he thinks about it that much yet - it's more of an after-the-fact sort of thing. rather than, i'm going to pick up my blocks now because it makes our day run smoother and everyone will be happier, it's more of a "oh, mom seemed pretty happy that i picked up my blocks without a ruckus and i'm happy that she's happy" sort of thing. wrong? i don't know...

and i agree with you about processes - seems to make perfect sense to say we need to do A before we can do B. no, i don't talk to my husband that way because he already knows. he's an adult. someone taught him at some point how to get along in the world and now it's his turn and mine to do the same for our sons, right? i don't need to say, if you don't mow the grass, a) the yard will look awful b) i will not be very happy about it c) the town will fine us etc....he already knows that. but if i WERE to say that to him because he'd let it go a few days too long simply because he "didn't feel like it", how am i hurting him? how is that different than saying to my ds, if you don't put your clothes on, we're not going to the library. my dh already knows not to go the library naked and i guess my ds still might wonder why it's not ok. it's my job to help him with that. what would be a better way? i don't see it effective to say a paragraph's worth of information about how he doesn't have to, but he can if he really wants to but it's not necessary but it would be beneficial but it's not required it's only if he really wants to. this is in NO WAY a hit on anybody who has said anything REMOTELY close to this in this discussion. it's an echo of north of 60's sentiment that we're hemmin' and haulin' around an issue when it doesn't seem like it would be detrimental to just come out and say "do this or we can't do that".


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
so am i "correct" in saying that he is in a developmental stage where he seems to want to make himself happy - even at the expense of the family? it seems that way to me, but maybe i'm reading him wrong. an earlier poster said that children naturally want to please, and while i can see that he's happy when he's "made" me happy, i don't think he's at an age where he thinks about it that much yet - it's more of an after-the-fact sort of thing.

Absolutely. I totally think empathy is learned, which is why I, again, fail to see why it's wrong or manipulative to tell my daughter that stuff she does (or doesn't do) will make me mad/sad/upset/frustrated/happy/excited, etc. It's foolish to think that our actions don't impact other people's feelings, yet ambiguity toward children is desired because they can then form their own opinions and motivations? What does that model? It seems there are so many learning opportunities that are lost with this line of thinking, most especially critical and analytical thought. If the importance in doing a task is placed on whether or not you want to do it, or whether it brings a sense of joy, how does one learn to analyze an outcome? Especially if the response for not wanting to do something is lackadaisical?


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

North_of_60 and Jackson'smama







I agree with much of what you said.

That said, I am learning from all of you.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Absolutely. I totally think empathy is learned, which is why I, again, fail to see why it's wrong or manipulative to tell my daughter that stuff she does (or doesn't do) will make me mad/sad/upset/frustrated/happy/excited, etc.

I think it can be very manipulative to put the responsility for our emotions onto a child's shoulders (or another adult, for that matter). It's also inaccurate. You can't MAKE someone feel a certain way. We can impact other people's feelings, but we're not responsible for them: they are.

It's the difference between saying:
"*You frustrate me when you don't pick up your toys*"

"*I am frustrated* when you don't pick your toys *because I value a clean house"*

The second example lets the child know that their behavior has an effect on you, lets them know what your values are, and lets them see you take responsibility for owning your own reactions. It lets them know that they can't pass off their own anger/sadness/frustration as somebody else's "fault".

Maybe if I was less stressed out about other things, I wouldn't be so frustrated about the toys. Maybe if my own mother had a different attitude about cleaning than she did, I wouldn't be so frustrated about the toys. Maybe if the toys were all soft and squishy and not pointy and sharp, I wouldn't be so frustrated about the toys. There's a whole lot of things that go into how I feel at that moment, and my children aren't responsible for all of them.


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## popsicle sticks (Jul 23, 2008)

prothyraia I tend to phrase things that same way. "I feel (emotion) when you (whatever the action/behavior)." We've discussed the concept of taking responsibility for our own emotions quite a bit here. Still I'm not 100% certain that my child gets the difference in wording, but it's a fantastic reminder for me!

I think the idea of natural consequences comes into this. If my child dumps his milk on the floor after many reminders not to, I'm probably going to be annoyed. I can state that I'm annoyed without yelling or shaming, still the fact that I'm annoyed is natural and nothing to hide. It wouldn't be very authentic or healthy for me to stuff how I felt about it. Since my child's not afraid of being punished or blamed for my feelings, and he has all the information about how I feel and how his choices influenced me, next time he's free to act (if maturity and impulse control are present) with consideration for my feelings--without taking responsibility for them. At least, that's what I'm going for.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
*I think it can be very manipulative to put the responsility for our emotions onto a child's shoulders (or another adult, for that matter). It's also inaccurate. You can't MAKE someone feel a certain way. We can impact other people's feelings, but we're not responsible for them: they are.*

It's the difference between saying:
"*You frustrate me when you don't pick up your toys*"

"*I am frustrated* when you don't pick your toys *because I value a clean house"*

The second example lets the child know that their behavior has an effect on you, lets them know what your values are, and lets them see you take responsibility for owning your own reactions. It lets them know that they can't pass off their own anger/sadness/frustration as somebody else's "fault".


right on! which is what i was getting at in my earlier post. if we are teaching our kids that their actions/behavior _make other people feel_ certain ways then the reverse is true. other people will make him feel a certain way. it gives them too much power in one sense and then not enough in the other.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
how is having a sense of obligation a bad thing? ... i mean, i am not joyfully cooking dinner tonight. there is really no joy in it whatsoever. i am OBLIGATED to make dinner so that i and my children will not go to bed hungry. i did not joyfully make the bed this morning and it is not with a joyful heart that i will shower tonight. everything i do is either an obligation to myself, my family/friends, or some part/all of society. ... if we are constantly encouraging our children to only do what they want/feel like/feel joyful about/whatever, how do they learn that there are obligations in life?











what this teaches our children is to only be obligated to joy. if my day is only filled with obligations, i'm not living anywhere near where i could be. if my day isn't filled with joy, whether i'm doing chores, working for pay, or spending time with my friends, i don't want to be living. it's just not worth it. i'm no longer of the mindset that kids have to be quickly indoctrinated that the world is dark and hard. if my son's not afraid to be himself, to be joyful, his world will always be a good place.







:


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
right on! which is what i was getting at in my earlier post. if we are teaching our kids that their actions/behavior _make other people feel_ certain ways then the reverse is true. other people will make him feel a certain way. it gives them too much power in one sense and then not enough in the other.

It seems to me, that it all equals out in the end. People can, and will affect other people. That's just living.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 









what this teaches our children is to only be obligated to joy. if my day is only filled with obligations, i'm not living anywhere near where i could be. if my day isn't filled with joy, whether i'm doing chores, working for pay, or spending time with my friends, i don't want to be living. it's just not worth it. i'm no longer of the mindset that kids have to be quickly indoctrinated that the world is dark and hard. if my son's not afraid to be himself, to be joyful, his world will always be a good place.







:


I'm totally down with joy.







:

That doesn't mean that my day-to-day isn't filled with obligations that have nothing to do with joy, and everything to do with being a grown-up.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I'm sorry your childhood was stressful like that, but your sharing it sort of makes a point for me. I think there are "extremes" on both ends of the spectrum. In order to to understand what method is preferable it helps me to think of why the alternative is not desirable. In this case, it's abusing obligations, and being manipulative and coercive. And while your situation is unfortunate, it doesn't exemplify the type of obligations I'm referring to. Asking my 2.5 year old to help me pick up toys before we can go to the park is not even remotely similar to pitching her stuff out into the yard and being completely unaware of bullying.

So with that, I pose the question again - why are obligations wrong? Why is it wrong to say "please pick up your toys or we can't go to the park". Why is it wrong to forgo the reasons and explanations when phrasing questions in favor of simply stating what you want to happen?

I'm not sure I think "wrong" is the right word.









For me, going to the park doesn't relate -- at 3-5 years old -- to cleaning up, is all. Actually going out to play and run around is a need I would prioritize before the toys being cleaned up (the times that he doesn't... most days, he does and it's simply not an issue). That's kind of how I relate it to what my mum did with us - the not considering the play/downtime as a need.

To me it's not that helpful to make a link between the two at this age (cleaning up vs. going out), and it creates a dynamic I personally am uncomfortable with. For me

With an older child I would feel differently. Or I might. We'll see.









Picking up on another post - there's the question of "do young children need training in how to meet obligations." Well, I think they do over their entire lives, but I personally am not sure that it is so all-fired important as we parents make it into especially in the younger years.

For one thing, responsibilities are complex things. I think the example was making dinner... yes parents have a responsibility to feed their children nutritious meals. But which is more responsible on a day when things are just not clicking: to cook a traditional North American Standard hot meal, perhaps resentfully, involving pots and pans, or to say "hey today is a hard day, let's eat veggies, fruit, cheese, and bread." Or cereal and fruit. Or order in. Or delegate to the other parent.

An adult has the choice. And in fact balancing different obligations against each other (an obligation to society vs. an obligation to keep quiet for a company, for example, or to protect coworkers' jobs) is really complicated and very much NOT about blindly following the obligation.

But frequently this is the kind of choice or decision we remove from our children. Is that _really_ training them for actual decision making, or is this "children have to meet obligations" really a short hand for "do as you're told." It's fine to decide kids in one's family should do as they're told, but let's not pretend it's moral training of some kind other than that.

Also, delayed gratification is a complex set of skills and young kids don't necessarily have the emotional or moral development going on yet. What they are learning is "do what mum says." Which is fine, but quite naturally happens in children's moral development (and then they become rule based, and then around puberty they start to be able to negotiate more complex questions like "is it okay to steal food from a dumpster if otherwise your children would starve.")

So in brief when you say "what's wrong with obligations for our kids?" my answer is - I just don't think this particular kind is all that useful at the preschool age. I think the invitation to clean up, the routine of cleaning up, and family harmony is useful. But standing my ground the 10% of the time my son opts out to me is not that useful.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
For one thing, responsibilities are complex things. I think the example was making dinner... yes parents have a responsibility to feed their children nutritious meals. But which is more responsible on a day when things are just not clicking: to cook a traditional North American Standard hot meal, perhaps resentfully, involving pots and pans, or to say "hey today is a hard day, let's eat veggies, fruit, cheese, and bread." Or cereal and fruit. Or order in. Or delegate to the other parent.

It was me who made the "dinner-making obligation" argument. The reference I made was not so much a *today* I don't feel like making dinner issue. It was more of a *pretty much everyday* i consider this something i don't really want to do. the point is, it's an obligation no matter how you look at it - whether you make a huge from-scratch meal, order take-out, or serve cheese and crackers. i as the adult am still obligated to feed the family. i cannot delegate if i'm the only adult in the house. so, how did i learn that *this* is what i do? i don't think it's a given that every parent in the world sees something like this an their obligation - so how did those of us who do learn it?

You say an adult has a choice, but what is it? they don't have the choice to just ignore it and hope somebody else will do it (in the case of serving a meal). An adult doesn't have a choice in completing a project for work if they need the job to support their family. I do have choices in life as does my son, but we can't always have a multiple choice including d)none of the above for every single issue we face on a daily basis - whether we're 3 or 93.

And I agree that standing my ground and getting into power struggles with a preschooler is not the best approach to handling anything. Sometimes, it's just not worth a battle. But that doesn't mean that I (just me, IMO - not speaking for anyone else here) think it's wrong to have any expectations of my child until he reaches puberty.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

heartmama, first off, I have to say I love your posts in GD.

However, I'm struggling with this. If it were me in this situation, I would tend more to the punitive. After stating the bit about 'Our pets require care and love even if we're tired, as you do (which I liked BTW!)' I would move into 'Fine, if you don't want to take care of your pets, we will need to find a family who will'.

Especially at age twelve, I think they're more than old enough to just do something that requires doing. At age five, not so much. However, sometimes I think all this discussion and negotiating leads to ambivalence. If you are doing his chore for him, without repercussions - he learns that someone else will do what requires doing.

It's not like we have this option with regards to our children (and before I am jumped on, yes I realize that's a stretch). We talk all the time about how adults have free choice to do as they please, but there are certain expectations around behaviour.

This is a very interesting discussion. I will say, for the record, that we are a very GD household. We do not hit or yell, and I try to avoid manipulation. But here, there is *definitely* 'you do A or B will not occur' or 'if you continue to do A - then B will occur'.
I should have given more detail, because you raise good points.

What I wrote was describing my initial response, not the overall strategy of building responsibility. Especially with older kids, I think a critical tool is to give them useful information/set the example, and then get out of the way to see what connections they make on their own. With my own ds, if I made the statement you quoted me saying, in the spirit I described (not as a victim of his irresponsibility, but as me making a deliberate choice to make sure the animals were tended) and then simply walked away to feed the animals, his *internal* process would be ignited, because I got out of the way. Whatever he was feeling would simmer up to the surface. Based on experience I know with my own ds, he would not actually let it go more than five seconds. He would engage me back in order to deal with those feelings. He might offer more details about his reasons "But I'm tired!" or "But it's cold outside!" etc. Or he might get huffy, "FINE, I'll do it myself!".

Now, this is process--I'm not looking for perfection every day. But we should be making progress, and there should be a sense of fairness in the exchange. There will be bad days. So my initial response you posted, was addressing those 'bad attitude days'. There are even days when ds is really genuinely too tired or upset or whatever, and I do his chores without telling him, just to surprise him. Sometimes I do his chores as a surprise on a good day, so he learns how nice it is to surprise someone that way. This is all so important. You have to play every role, to be a really good teacher. You can't just "be the teacher". You have to get inside the process, you have to think about every way in which your child is not "getting it" and then ask yourself "What can I do that will ignite a feeling in them of "getting it". It is about getting them to that point of feeling responsible, of feeling good about that responsibility, of having internalized and owned the process as their own. That is the whole point. Not just that they do what they are told--but that their heart is in the right place towards their own actions. If they are focused on you--doing what you say, not making you mad, avoiding punishment or whatever--then it's all wrong. The focus should be "I'm doing this because I am a responsible person, and this is what responsible people do. If I don't do this, I make more work for others. That doesn't feel good. It feels bad to know my animals are waiting. But it feels good to know I've done the right thing. It feels good to do my share. It feels good to be part of a family team". People have posted about whether children should be made to feel responsible or do things out of obligation etc. For me these have never been relevant questions. I absolutely think a strong sense of responsibility and knowing one's obligations, and being able to do them willingly, is at the heart of a satisfying life. The most functional and capable people I know are usually those who have a well cultivated sense of responsibility. They are not resentful, afraid, or obsessive about it. They have balance. They can do what is expected with a good attitude, while also being able to engage in thoughtful dialogue about those expectations, and work to change them if they feel they are unfair, unrealistic etc. They understand the process behind responsibility--it is not a knee jerk habit, it is a conscious process.

So--back to the worst case scenario question--if he is really tired, I will offer to help, and then the next night remind him to start earlier. But if he made a habit of complaining of being tired, or huffing and puffing, I would not let it go on indefinitely. We would sit down, I would explain that it's a problem for me that he is complaining, and ask him to make a definite plan with me for doing this chore without a lot of huffing and puffing. Definitely, a worse case scenario option would be--we can find the animals another home that will welcome them. I wouldn't put that as a punishment, because that is beside the point, right? My point would be that as responsible people we are going to make sure the animals get what they deserve. Whatever decision we make will be in their best interest, and we will "end on a win". From start to finish, I want ds to see you don't just quit. Even in the worst case, you put your heads together and make the best possible decision within your power. I just want to add that in my experience with just this one child, it has never reached a point that we couldn't get back on track, and find solutions that were less extreme.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
I'm totally down with joy.







:

That doesn't mean that my day-to-day isn't filled with obligations that have nothing to do with joy, and everything to do with being a grown-up.

YES! i'm not saying i hate doing what i do on a daily basis. what i am saying is that we all have to do things that are not at the top of the "that's my favorite thing to do" list.

so, if we don't start cultivating the notion in our children that life works in certain ways, are we just expecting them to "pick up on it" at some point in life? that's my question. if (general) you don't start teaching children that there are things called responsibilities and expectations or whatever - not expecting perfection or consistent 100% compliance - but at least starting down that path at an early age, do you just believe that one magical day it clicks and they say "oh, i will take all my laundry to the laundry room because that's where we do our laundry". or if they see you going fully clothed outside that one day they'll stop objecting to getting dressed to go somewhere and until then, they can go naked if they want to go. or whatever....i've heard several times here that people would make an insistance in the case of safety such as carseat/bike helmet, but otherwise, it's up to the child. when does that stop? does it ever?

i am asking because i'm truly curious and trying to find my way. i don't want a child who is blindly "doing as he's told" and will someday turn into the person everyone calls a "doormat". i don't want him to be selfish or totally selfless to the point of resentment or exhaustion. but i also don't want him to be someone who questions EVERY.SINGLE.PERSON who exhibits what he might perceive to be authority - i don't want the teenager who feels he doesn't have any rules to follow in life, for example. i don't want to portray to my children that the world is harsh and life is doom and gloom, but i also don't want them to believe that everything is always rosy and fun either. for example, i don't always want to wash clothes, but i do enjoy having clean clothes to wear, so i'm glad i fulfilled my obligation to do the laundry.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
It was me who made the "dinner-making obligation" argument. The reference I made was not so much a *today* I don't feel like making dinner issue. It was more of a *pretty much everyday* i consider this something i don't really want to do. the point is, it's an obligation no matter how you look at it - whether you make a huge from-scratch meal, order take-out, or serve cheese and crackers. i as the adult am still obligated to feed the family. i cannot delegate if i'm the only adult in the house. so, how did i learn that *this* is what i do? i don't think it's a given that every parent in the world sees something like this an their obligation - so how did those of us who do learn it?

You say an adult has a choice, but what is it? they don't have the choice to just ignore it and hope somebody else will do it (in the case of serving a meal). An adult doesn't have a choice in completing a project for work if they need the job to support their family. I do have choices in life as does my son, but we can't always have a multiple choice including d)none of the above for every single issue we face on a daily basis - whether we're 3 or 93.

And I agree that standing my ground and getting into power struggles with a preschooler is not the best approach to handling anything. Sometimes, it's just not worth a battle. But that doesn't mean that I (just me, IMO - not speaking for anyone else here) think it's wrong to have any expectations of my child until he reaches puberty.

I don't think that it's wrong to have expectations either.

I think what we're discussing though is the response we have when those expectations are not met.

For myself I find it counterproductive so far to frame it as "if you don't feed the dog on Thursday you'll never learn to feed your kids." I don't think that's true, first of all.

I *do* think the broad aspects of responsibility are related. I *don't* think that punishing the lack of action at 5 pm Thursday is. This is definitely out of my personal experience where being made to do things at particular times actually hindered my willingness to do them.

And secondly, the truth is that there are a variety of ways of doing things. Some people buy elaborate contraptions that feed the dog, so that they can refill them at weird intervals. There just are lots of ways. I think sometimes when we insist on "the right" (translation: our) way of doing it we cut off the real ability to problem solve. Sometimes we don't. It's a balance.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
The focus should be "I'm doing this because I am a responsible person, and this is what responsible people do. If I don't do this, I make more work for others. That doesn't feel good. It feels bad to know my animals are waiting. But it feels good to know I've done the right thing. It feels good to do my share. It feels good to be part of a family team".

I LOVE THIS! how do you get there?


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

When it comes to chores, I don't really think that young children see obligation in the same way that older kids or parents do. My 2yo just wants to be included in everything. She LIKES the idea of spraying vinegar on the floor while I'm mopping and knowing where shoes go. Now, I'm not saying she does these things 'correctly' or consistently, but she does love to help and I'm hoping that by continuing to include her as she gains competency, she will not see joy and obligation as being at odds with each other.

There IS joy in obligations met and work well done!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I LOVE THIS! how do you get there?
Well, I think a key is what I mentioned here:

Quote:

Now, this is process--I'm not looking for perfection every day. But we should be making progress, and there should be a sense of fairness in the exchange. There will be bad days. So my initial response you posted, was addressing those 'bad attitude days'. There are even days when ds is really genuinely too tired or upset or whatever, and I do his chores without telling him, just to surprise him. Sometimes I do his chores as a surprise on a good day, so he learns how nice it is to surprise someone that way. This is all so important. You have to play every role, to be a really good teacher. You can't just "be the teacher". You have to get inside the process, you have to think about every way in which your child is not "getting it" and then ask yourself "What can I do that will ignite a feeling in them of "getting it". It is about getting them to that point of feeling responsible, of feeling good about that responsibility, of having internalized and owned the process as their own. That is the whole point. Not just that they do what they are told--but that their heart is in the right place towards their own actions.
The process is going to look different depending on your child. What does *your* child need to improve their attitude towards personal responsibility?

An example: Ds is hypotonic (congenitally low muscle tone), which wasn't diagnosed for years. But it was clear that he lacked something in terms of physical competence. I recently read a description of life for the hypotonic child, and it said essentially that with hypotonia the child feels the force of gravity weighing upon their movements. A bit like running underwater. They have a greater awareness of resistance when they move, and it takes the fun out of work. Work is not fun for ds in the way it is for some children. Making chores a game by racing or hopping or skipping, it doesn't motivate him. It makes it worse. So it's especially important for me to build up his psychological satisfaction from doing work. Ds likes to prove he is important, competent, and valuable to the family, because he does struggle physically, especially compared to both his parents. So there is great verbal discussion/acknowledgement and praise for ds' work. I try to never miss an opportunity to point out when I am tired, or overwhelmed, and NEED ds' help. As in, really, truly need it. Kids know when they are doing something YOU could do better than them, vs. when they are doing something because a parent truly is unable to get it done. Ds really likes to be asked to step up and do extra because a parent is really tired. He just loves that, because it speaks to his heart, on a level that is personally important for him.

Finding things like that, working together in that way, seems to make the process mutually rewarding.

We also talk a great deal about the connections between "this and that". I point out (with pets) the way they have needs just like he (ds) has, in terms of being fed, cleaned up, feeling safe. Obviously ds knows this at age 12, but it still works well as a reminder if he needs one. People don't stop needing some level of engagement with others. Even adults have to work out problems, and sometimes have people say "Do you realize how that makes the other person feel?" etc.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Wow I LOVE this statement, too. I haven't read this entire thread and I haven't posted in GD for a while but this is a very inspiring statement


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
It seems to me, that it all equals out in the end. People can, and will affect other people. That's just living.

yes. in the sense of our understanding behavior and the emotions they bring up in other people, of course, "that's just living". acquiring empathy and compassion and understanding and cause and effect are a lot different than handing the power of our emotion over to others though.
there is a big difference between "you make me so mad when you pour paint on the rug..." (out of control) vs. "when you pour paints all over the rug, i get very angry". (in control)

this is a whole other thread though so i'll leave it at that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolalola* 
I'm totally down with joy.







:

That doesn't mean that my day-to-day isn't filled with obligations that have nothing to do with joy, and everything to do with being a grown-up.

but being a grown-up isn't just about "obligations". if it is then i must not be very grown up.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I'm not sure I think "wrong" is the right word.









For me, going to the park doesn't relate -- at 3-5 years old -- to cleaning up, is all. Actually going out to play and run around is a need I would prioritize before the toys being cleaned up (the times that he doesn't... most days, he does and it's simply not an issue). That's kind of how I relate it to what my mum did with us - the not considering the play/downtime as a need.

To me it's not that helpful to make a link between the two at this age (cleaning up vs. going out), and it creates a dynamic I personally am uncomfortable with.
For me With an older child I would feel differently. Or I might. We'll see.









Picking up on another post - there's the question of "do young children need training in how to meet obligations." Well, I think they do over their entire lives, but I personally am not sure that it is so all-fired important as we parents make it into especially in the younger years.

For one thing, responsibilities are complex things. I think the example was making dinner... yes parents have a responsibility to feed their children nutritious meals. But which is more responsible on a day when things are just not clicking: to cook a traditional North American Standard hot meal, perhaps resentfully, involving pots and pans, or to say "hey today is a hard day, let's eat veggies, fruit, cheese, and bread." Or cereal and fruit. Or order in. Or delegate to the other parent.

An adult has the choice. And in fact balancing different obligations against each other (an obligation to society vs. an obligation to keep quiet for a company, for example, or to protect coworkers' jobs) is really complicated and very much NOT about blindly following the obligation.

But frequently this is the kind of choice or decision we remove from our children. Is that _really_ training them for actual decision making, or is this "children have to meet obligations" really a short hand for "do as you're told." It's fine to decide kids in one's family should do as they're told, but let's not pretend it's moral training of some kind other than that.

Also, delayed gratification is a complex set of skills and young kids don't necessarily have the emotional or moral development going on yet. What they are learning is "do what mum says." Which is fine, but quite naturally happens in children's moral development (and then they become rule based, and then around puberty they start to be able to negotiate more complex questions like "is it okay to steal food from a dumpster if otherwise your children would starve.")

So in brief when you say "what's wrong with obligations for our kids?" my answer is - I just don't think this particular kind is all that useful at the preschool age. I think the invitation to clean up, the routine of cleaning up, and family harmony is useful. But standing my ground the 10% of the time my son opts out to me is not that useful.


excellent excellent post!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
It was me who made the "dinner-making obligation" argument. The reference I made was not so much a *today* I don't feel like making dinner issue. It was more of a *pretty much everyday* i consider this something i don't really want to do. the point is, it's an obligation no matter how you look at it - whether you make a huge from-scratch meal, order take-out, or serve cheese and crackers. i as the adult am still obligated to feed the family. i cannot delegate if i'm the only adult in the house. so, how did i learn that *this* is what i do? i don't think it's a given that every parent in the world sees something like this an their obligation - so how did those of us who do learn it?

*You say an adult has a choice, but what is it? they don't have the choice to just ignore it and hope somebody else will do it (in the case of serving a meal). An adult doesn't have a choice in completing a project for work if they need the job to support their family. I do have choices in life as does my son, but we can't always have a multiple choice including d)none of the above for every single issue we face on a daily basis - whether we're 3 or 93.*

And I agree that standing my ground and getting into power struggles with a preschooler is not the best approach to handling anything. Sometimes, it's just not worth a battle. But that doesn't mean that I (just me, IMO - not speaking for anyone else here) think it's wrong to have any expectations of my child until he reaches puberty.


one always has a choice. as an adult we have many many choices. more so than a child.

we don't have an obligation to go work somewhere we don't want to just to provide for our families.

i never have had a dog because i knew along with a dog comes the responsibility of walking and feeding and vet bills and training and the trade off of a having a dog wasn't worth it to me. so i got a cat.









i didn't have a child merely out of some made up idea of what a responsible adult looks like. i had a child because i enjoy children and i wanted to experience that. part of the privilege (because that's how it see it) of having a child is providing the basics for him but how i go about that is still within my realm of power.

i think maybe children practice obligation/responsibility when they are at the age to be given and practice having privileges- a pet, driving, a paying job. i also believe they observe and absorb our attitudes about obligations. are we emotionally derailed or stressed out every time the car has to get the oil changed or is it just a fact of life? we model for our kids and share with them how things work... when you have a car (privilege) you have to get the oil changed every 3,000 miles (obligation). simple.

obligations in my mind don't equal "suffering". they just _are_. c'est la vie. that is life.

personally, i find obligations usually go hand in hand with joy. if i find i'm fulfilling more obligations than enjoying the privileges then my life is way out of balance and it's time for me to do something about it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

This reminds me of the NVC concept that others' actions can be a stimulus for our feelings, but never the cause. The cause of your feelings is you, what your inside thoughts are, how you interpret others' actions, etc etc.

NVC is big on not doing anything that doesn't bring you joy. I may not get joy out of cooking per se, but I do get joy out of my family eating 90% of our meals strict vegetarian, meals that they REALLY like, and mostly really healthy foods. It would be nearly impossible for us to eat that way if I didn't spend a bit of time cooking.

That also reminds me of something in NVC- a mom was in a workshop and said she HAD to cook, and she hated doing it. She went through the NVC steps and eventually decided that she wasn't going to spend so much time doign something she hated. Some time later, the workshop leader had a chance to talk to her (teenage, I think) son, who ended up being SUPER happy that mom stopped cooking, because now they could have family meals where everyone was happy.

Not saying that anyone else could, or should, do that. This thread just reminded me of it, and it was quite an amazing story for me to read. The mom felt obligated to cook, but really, a lot of people's needs were going unmet *because* of that feeling of obligation.

I really like what the pp says about adults having choice regarding our obligations. I think that makes a big difference to me.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

When it comes to chores, I don't really think that young children see obligation in the same way that older kids or parents do. My 2yo just wants to be included in everything.
I totally agree. Little kids are living in the 'now', they don't learn from talk of past choices or future decisions. My main thing with little kids, is to avoid anything that seems to cause resistance towards working together. The minute they resist, I stop and go in another direction, because they won't remember anything but their own feeling that work is hateful and they dislike it. Older kids can engage in real discussion and appreciate other points of view. Anyway, I said before, I wasn't as patient as I might have been about including little ds, because his 'help' was mostly boisterous play in the midst of whatever I was doing. But I was always working in front of him, talking about how something was done, putting things where they should go.

I also said at the beginning of the thread, that age really matters with this issue. You can't assume you will start one way and then never change your approach. It makes sense to avoid frustrating a toddler with limited verbal ability and no concept of the future. It doesn't make sense to tiptoe around a 7 year old who *needs* to have his powers of self expression, rational thinking, and problem solving seriously engaged. Kids change dramatically as they grow up. They have such different needs at different ages...


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
one always has a choice. as an adult we have many many choices. more so than a child.

we don't have an obligation to go work somewhere we don't want to just to provide for our families.

obligations in my mind don't equal "suffering". they just _are_. c'est la vie. that is life.

personally, i find obligations usually go hand in hand with joy. if i find i'm fulfilling more obligations than enjoying the privileges then my life is way out of balance and it's time for me to do something about it.


yes, we do have more choices that inherently come with being an adult. but i know people who daily go off to work somewhere where they don't want to just to provide for their families - be it location, pay, benefits - whatever.

i agree! obligations don't have to equal suffering. they just are part of life. so that's why i'm confused when we start talking to our children in a way that seems to make "obligations" seem like suffering - to imply that we don't want them to do anything they don't really WANT to do at that given time and that there is always a choice and that we don't want them to do anything they aren't joyful and happy about seems to say that what we are asking/telling them to do could very well be construed as suffering when it's something as simple as picking up your wet bathtowel off the floor when you have finished bathing. or when it's a situation such as "you can't eat your snack until you wash your hands". the whole sequence makes sense to me and it's not making my child "suffer" to wash his hands - even though he'd actually rather just get straight to the snacking and bypass the handwashing. for those opposed to "sequencing" like this, is the idea to not say anything at all? to request handwashing before snack but don't say anything if the child elects otherwise? to assume that some day, with our modeling that WE wash our hands before eating, our children will do the same and that in the mean time, there's nothing on their hands that will kill them? my head is spinning and i'm starting to feel like this is coming down to a question about "rules" - do we give our children rules to follow or let them go with their own flow indefinitely?

and i also agree that if you are finding no joy in your daily life then something is out of balance - BUT - i still stand by the fact that not everything we do is always going to be something we're over the moon about. i can mop joyfully as i am mindful of the fact that i'm happy to have a floor/a mop/a family and dog that's made the floor dirty, etc....but i can also dread the thought of mopping all the while knowing it has to be done NOW because otherwise the baby is going to be eating something that's just been lying in cat poop drug in on the dog's feet and tracked all over the dining room. this is seriously making me feel like i really can't say anything to my children that would even remotely sound like a "rule" for fear of turning them into someone who is afraid that if they don't comply that i don't love them or respect them or something. my head is spinning!

thank you heartmama - i really like what you're saying and appreciate your explanations!


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
yes, we do have more choices that inherently come with being an adult. but i know people who daily go off to work somewhere where they don't want to just to provide for their families - be it location, pay, benefits - whatever.

i agree! obligations don't have to equal suffering. they just are part of life. so that's why i'm confused when we start talking to our children in a way that seems to make "obligations" seem like suffering - to imply that we don't want them to do anything they don't really WANT to do at that given time and that there is always a choice and that we don't want them to do anything they aren't joyful and happy about seems to say that what we are asking/telling them to do could very well be construed as suffering when it's something as simple as picking up your wet bathtowel off the floor when you have finished bathing. or when it's a situation such as "you can't eat your snack until you wash your hands". the whole sequence makes sense to me and it's not making my child "suffer" to wash his hands - even though he'd actually rather just get straight to the snacking and bypass the handwashing. for those opposed to "sequencing" like this, is the idea to not say anything at all? to request handwashing before snack but don't say anything if the child elects otherwise? to assume that some day, with our modeling that WE wash our hands before eating, our children will do the same and that in the mean time, there's nothing on their hands that will kill them? my head is spinning and i'm starting to feel like this is coming down to a question about "rules" - do we give our children rules to follow or let them go with their own flow indefinitely?

and i also agree that if you are finding no joy in your daily life then something is out of balance - BUT - i still stand by the fact that not everything we do is always going to be something we're over the moon about. i can mop joyfully as i am mindful of the fact that i'm happy to have a floor/a mop/a family and dog that's made the floor dirty, etc....but i can also dread the thought of mopping all the while knowing it has to be done NOW because otherwise the baby is going to be eating something that's just been lying in cat poop drug in on the dog's feet and tracked all over the dining room. this is seriously making me feel like i really can't say anything to my children that would even remotely sound like a "rule" for fear of turning them into someone who is afraid that if they don't comply that i don't love them or respect them or something. my head is spinning!

thank you heartmama - i really like what you're saying and appreciate your explanations!

first, give up the idea that you can't say anything to your kids because you might ruin them!









i said in the very beginning of this thread i will probably manipulate, bribe, reward, punish and say "because i said so!" to my kid. i am human. but i try to pay attention to my words and my intent. i don't think it's a bad idea to examine our motivations or be conscious of how manipulation works- for our own selves and for helping our kids become more conscious.

back to the basics here-

"you can't eat snacks before washing hands" is a bold faced lie. i do it all the time! so, na na na.









withholding the snack is how you are manipulating your kids into washing their hands.

a more positive and HONEST way of saying _your_ "rule" would perhaps be- "in our house we wash hands before eating."

obligations feel like suffering to me when they are used punitively- "feed the dog or i'll give him away"
or when the weight of the obligation outweighs the privilege -
an employer who expects you to work 70+ hours a week - but they consistently are only paying you for the 40 hours you signed up for.

believe me when i say i had a job like this and it was really hard for me to quit because i did have a strong sense of obligation to my employer and i was also worried about feeding my family and providing. there was a huge "a-ha" moment there as far as me being in control of my own life when i did say good-bye to them and found a job where the obligation was in-line with the benefits.

my hope for my child is that he never finds himself in a job (or relationship) where his soul is suffering from the obligation and he is merely sticking it out for the benefits, paycheck, location. i hope that by teaching him/modeling for him how to have clear boundaries and follow "joy" he will be able to have a balanced life.

one more thing- i don't think you have to mop "joyfully" either. personally i like mopping, making the bed, house cleaning etc. but that's me. what i detest is emptying the cat box but if i make a fuss over it- going around stomping and complaining about it that would be silly! so i just get on with it and do it.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

stickywicket - my biggest fear is "ruining" my children. i am CONSTANTLY wondering if everything i do is right/wrong. tonight, my oldest son banged his head on the wall when he was situating himself in bed. i gasped (out of fear b/c it's a log wall and it was a loud thud) - he turned around and quickly APOLOGIZED to me. Whaaaaaaaaaat? i immediately had mixed feelings of "aww - he's concerned that i was obviously freaked for him", that quickly melted into "oh crap - he's saying he's sorry because maybe he thinks i'm mad at him for banging his head?!?!?" this is just too hard sometimes!








anyways, he said like 4 times today "i like helping you mommy!" he's said it on occasion before, but today was a marathon of help from dishes to groceries to ironing (his iron was cold) to doing some caulking in the bathroom. so, i don't know if someone read him all my posts or what, but he's really chipping in on his own accord! LOL!
____________________________________________
stickywicket said (i'm bad at the quoting function)
back to the basics here-

"you can't eat snacks before washing hands" is a bold faced lie. i do it all the time! so, na na na.









withholding the snack is how you are manipulating your kids into washing their hands.

a more positive and HONEST way of saying _your_ "rule" would perhaps be- "in our house we wash hands before eating."

__________________________________________________ __

so you are still manipulating the child into handwashing, you are just being more positive about it?

__________________________________________________ __

stickywicket: "obligations feel like suffering to me when they are used punitively- "feed the dog or i'll give him away"
or when the weight of the obligation outweighs the privilege -
an employer who expects you to work 70+ hours a week - but they consistently are only paying you for the 40 hours you signed up for."
__________________________________________________ __

ABSOLUTELY - but i didn't think that's what we were talking about here unless you believe it's punitive to have to wait to go outside and play until the toys have been picked up, for example. i'm not talking about throwing away the toys forever - i'm talking about taking a moment to clean up before we move onto something else. yes, he's having to delay which i guess is difficult for that age, but i didn't consider it punitive i guess. hmmmm...
__________________________________________________ ___

stickywicket:
"believe me when i say i had a job like this and it was really hard for me to quit because i did have a strong sense of obligation to my employer and i was also worried about feeding my family and providing. there was a huge "a-ha" moment there as far as me being in control of my own life when i did say good-bye to them and found a job where the obligation was in-line with the benefits.
my hope for my child is that he never finds himself in a job (or relationship) where his soul is suffering from the obligation and he is merely sticking it out for the benefits, paycheck, location. i hope that by teaching him/modeling for him how to have clear boundaries and follow "joy" he will be able to have a balanced life."
__________________________________________________ ___

i'll just throw my dh in for example of what i'm saying here. he is a police officer who has risen quite quickly in his dept and makes a pretty remarkable salary for a LEO. he is "at work" as soon as he gets in his car. he has a take home car. he has considerable rank. problem is the agency is not his "dream agency". he'd rather work in a different agency but with two children and a wife to support, he knows that he is *obligated* to stick with the job that's paying him astronomically even though he'd like another agency better.
plus, dthe other agency is a 1.5 hour commute from our house making his workday approximately 15 hours.
i'm just saying that not everyone can just move to a new job when they have people counting on their paycheck - esp. in this economy. so while it's off the direct subject of children, it's really something i consider when taking into account the fact that i'm growing adults. i would hope that someday my sons will be in very happy relationships and have happy jobs. i too hope my children never find themselves in jobs (or relationships) where their souls are suffering from the obligation and they are merely sticking it out for the benefits, paycheck, location. i hope that by teaching them/modeling for them how to have clear boundaries and follow "joy" they will be able to have balanced lives. BUT i would also want sons who would sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of their children. i think there are times when obligations take precedence over our personal joys.

__________________________________________________ _____

stickywicket:"one more thing- i don't think you have to mop "joyfully" either. personally i like mopping, making the bed, house cleaning etc. but that's me. what i detest is emptying the cat box but if i make a fuss over it- going around stomping and complaining about it that would be silly! so i just get on with it and do it."
__________________________________________________ ______

well, i actually like cleaning too...i'm just using various examples. but, if it's silly for you to stomp and complain about emptying the catbox - at what point is it NOT OK for our children to do this, b/c i'm getting the feeling that it IS OK. what am i missing here? it seems that several posters would be fine with a child refusing/stomping/complaining about any given "chore" or whatever as long as that's what the child is feeling. we validate it and then do the chore ourselves b/c we're the ones who wanted it done in the first place. so, at what point is it not ok for our kids to make a fuss over something? and if there does come a point, it seems to me that the kid would be confused - as in "hmmm i used to be able to say no and my mom would be like 'that's cool...if you don't want to do it, i'll do it myself' with a smile on her face. now, she's telling me to stop being silly and making a fuss and just 'get on with it'. i know we use different language and methods (for lack of a better word) with different ages, but to me it seems that we don't do anything until some magical age and then we start having expectations of responsible driving and petcare?????


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
You can't MAKE someone feel a certain way. We can impact other people's feelings, but we're not responsible for them

Right, which is why I don't over analyze every word that comes out my mouth. At the end of the day, I give my child enough credit to understand that mommy isn't an evil manipulator out to cause deep lasting emotional wounds. I don't think that credit is given enough, sadly.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 









what this teaches our children is to only be obligated to joy. if my day is only filled with obligations, i'm not living anywhere near where i could be. if my day isn't filled with joy, whether i'm doing chores, working for pay, or spending time with my friends, i don't want to be living. it's just not worth it. *i'm no longer of the mindset that kids have to be quickly indoctrinated that the world is dark and hard.* if my son's not afraid to be himself, to be joyful, his world will always be a good place.







:

Hm, maybe I'm just a pessimistic hard ass, but I think this is such a poetic over simplification of life. And I don't think I've ever met a person who didn't in some way seek out joy and happiness in their life, but dude, not everything in life causes joy and happiness. It certainly is a worth while goal, but at the same time, I'm also not raising a kid to see the world through rose coloured glasses.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Hm, maybe I'm just a pessimistic hard ass, but I think this is such a poetic over simplification of life. And I don't think I've ever met a person who didn't in some way seek out joy and happiness in their life, but dude, not everything in life causes joy and happiness. It certainly is a worth while goal, but at the same time, I'm also not raising a kid to see the world through rose coloured glasses.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
yes, we do have more choices that inherently come with being an adult. but i know people who daily go off to work somewhere where they don't want to just to provide for their families - be it location, pay, benefits - whatever.

i agree! obligations don't have to equal suffering. they just are part of life. so that's why i'm confused when we start talking to our children in a way that seems to make "obligations" seem like suffering - to imply that we don't want them to do anything they don't really WANT to do at that given time and that there is always a choice and that we don't want them to do anything they aren't joyful and happy about seems to say that what we are asking/telling them to do could very well be construed as suffering when it's something as simple as picking up your wet bathtowel off the floor when you have finished bathing. or when it's a situation such as "you can't eat your snack until you wash your hands". the whole sequence makes sense to me and it's not making my child "suffer" to wash his hands - even though he'd actually rather just get straight to the snacking and bypass the handwashing. for those opposed to "sequencing" like this, is the idea to not say anything at all? to request handwashing before snack but don't say anything if the child elects otherwise? to assume that some day, with our modeling that WE wash our hands before eating, our children will do the same and that in the mean time, there's nothing on their hands that will kill them? my head is spinning and i'm starting to feel like this is coming down to a question about "rules" - do we give our children rules to follow or let them go with their own flow indefinitely?

and i also agree that if you are finding no joy in your daily life then something is out of balance - BUT - i still stand by the fact that not everything we do is always going to be something we're over the moon about. i can mop joyfully as i am mindful of the fact that i'm happy to have a floor/a mop/a family and dog that's made the floor dirty, etc....but i can also dread the thought of mopping all the while knowing it has to be done NOW because otherwise the baby is going to be eating something that's just been lying in cat poop drug in on the dog's feet and tracked all over the dining room. this is seriously making me feel like i really can't say anything to my children that would even remotely sound like a "rule" for fear of turning them into someone who is afraid that if they don't comply that i don't love them or respect them or something. my head is spinning!

thank you heartmama - i really like what you're saying and appreciate your explanations!

I saw your post later on that you worry about ruining your kids and I just wanted to say that I do not think you are ruining your kids.







I find discussions like this helpful for fine tuning, but I feel pretty sure that with the vast majority of mums here their relationships with their kids are fine.

I think with the handwashing-snack connection to me anyway there is more causality there. It's a pretty easy explanation (not that the child will comply) that our hands have germs we don't want in our mouths.

For me that's different than taking a stand on the tidying up before going out to play. It might not be for other people and that's fine, but I see the second as more punitive because the correlation between "tidy house" and "outdoor time" is not the same as "germs can make us sick." If that makes sense.

FOR ME (not saying other families have to agree!) the second feels punitive at this age (3). It does feel manipulative to me to withhold the going out over the tidying up. I agree with heartmama in that my personal belief is that taking a stand on chores (no going outside unless we clean up first) at this young age is more likely to leave a feeling of chores=unhappiness than chores=responsibility I have taken on.

As adults we will know that there are things we have to do when we don't want to do them, but we also come to that understanding through years of experience with actual results. I'm not sure I clean the cat box because my mother made me do things. I think I clean it because in my life I have not cleaned it for two weeks and it got incredibly gross and disgusting.









I don't personally think that it will be all that confusing to most kids later on when they are given more responsibility, in the same way that kids learn to drive despite being in car seats when they are little, etc. I actually believe that increasing amounts of responsibility are really good.

I just think that if the responsibility is at an appropriate level, most of the consequences take care of themselves. (For example when a child's old enough to do his/her own laundry, not having clean clothes is the result. I don't at that point have to say they can't go anywhere if their laundry is not done.)

I also think that work ethics come from different places - a sense of self-worth and pride in one's legitimate accomplishments, a sense of caring for those around us, as well as models around us, and yes, habit. I don't personally believe it's even close to one hundred percent about training. Yes we all know the apocryphal stories of people who never had to do any chores as kids and are slobs as adults. But I am not convinced that is a whole story - I think there are also adults who had to do lots of chores and don't do them, and adults who do them from all kinds of families.

For the joyfulness and chores - I come at this with a lot of baggage myself. But the fact is that in my family we have a family history going back generations of chores being incredibly tense and unhappy affairs. It has been a huge retraining task for me to approach cleaning without dread. But it is possible. A lot of it has been to learn to respect my own limits and not try to clean the whole house in one night when I'm tired.

Does that mean I sing for joy when I have to clean the cat box? Ugh, no. But I also don't do it at 11:30 pm, because despite the consequences I know that will make me tense and I won't sleep well. Then at 8 am I know I can tackle it. I don't leave it forever. There's room for balance. I would like to give my son that room too.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

GuildJenn- i like what you have posted in this thread. you are very in tune to this subject.

i agree with what you've said about the the blocks/outside being more punitive and that the handwash/snacks is more causality.

but i think the way it is phrased needn't be so adversarial. how about just "let's get washed up kids it's time for snacks" nor does it need to be so "universal truth" sounding. "you can't eat snacks without washing your hands..." is simply not true. people do it all the time. i'm being nitpicky as hell here i know







but, ykwim?

i think when we are teaching our kids about rules/causality it's fine to say "i believe x therefore in this house we do y." own it or explain it. not make it sound like a universal rule if it isn't. be honest. that is my one request for my interactions with others. even saying "because i said so" is more honest than using bribes or manipulation or tricky talk!

i grew up with a mother who made these very matter of fact, universal pronouncements over things and when i got older i tested them out or i would repeat a pronouncement to a friend and they would say "really? well that's not true for me". calling me out on my belief system. many proved to be simply my mother's opinion that i'd taken for "the truth" and it left me feeling like her credibility was suspect. it was actually very difficult for me to reconcile because i trusted her judgment and then it was like 'hmmmm, maybe not'.

as far as rose colored glasses and seeking joy and happiness- you don't have to teach a child how to seek out joy and happiness if you don't want to. however, the default state of the world is un-happiness so why wouldn't i want to give my kid the tools to go out into the world being, at the very least, conscious of their own state of mind within that mindset? ultimately, your own state of mind is the only thing you have any real control over.

i want my child to have the inner tools to accept peacefully what he can't change (responsibility/obligation) and 'do' the rest of his life with enjoyment and enthusiasm.

maybe that is idealistic. personally, i'd rather see more idealism in the world than pessimism.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Right, which is why I don't over analyze every word that comes out my mouth. At the end of the day, I give my child enough credit to understand that mommy isn't an evil manipulator out to cause deep lasting emotional wounds. I don't think that credit is given enough, sadly.

I think the value in anaylzing our words is more for ourselves than our children, honestly. I do believe that intent (usually) comes through regardless of wording. But I find it really helpful _for me_ to look at how I'm saying things and what that reveals about my unconscious motivations. Am I trying to authentically share how I feel, or am I trying to blame him for the way I feel? Thinking carefully about what I'm saying- not so much in the moment, but in retrospect- makes me more aware of why I'm saying it, if that makes sense.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

lol add me to the list of hating to cook every single day AND clean.

but i found a happy medium here. somedays i cook and somedays i dont (we also both hate left overs so its most days cook from scratch). even while i DONT like the process of cooking everyday (i LOVE cooking - just not everyday) i find joy in the fact that i am meeting the nutritious needs of my family. so now that i dont have to cook everyday (i do raw foods and snacky foods on certain days) the days i have to i enjoy it. to me i find if i am happy inside - my world is a 'happy' place too. makes me a happy parent too coz i am not so frustrated.

like last night. we talked about yelling. how my dd feels i am still yelling a lot. and so we both came up with a brilliant idea of making a chart for me. i get a star on the days i dont yell. i get a sad face for lots of yelling, a shrug for moderate yelling and a straight lips one for little yelling. its a great way for me getting in touch with what my dd feels about yelling and a check of watching myself AND at the end of a good week i get a no complaining back scratch - not a 2 minute one. and if its sad faces teh whole week - dd gets an icecream. i mean yeah we came up with 'rewards' but for us its more about how the day went rather than the rewards. it has brought a lot of fun in our lives i tell u. just a 5 min period during bedtime and my dd is nearly jumping off the bed in excitement AND enjoying the fact that she is 'in control'.

soooo when i do make mistakes they are not so big. so jackson's mama i make mistakes all the time.

for me though its not even the words you use - not so much what you say - but how you say it. again it all depends on your relationship as pp had said a few pages back. i find i use command words a lot but as my dd's K teacher pointed out 'she doesnt listen to you either'. which made me happy. because she questions why i am asking her or anyone else. its coz she wants to know why (sometimes, not always) seh is being asked to do that. i think that helps her find joy in what she is doing. if we look at our lives we do a lot of hateful tasks joyfully coz it feels good to help another person. for instance i love cleaning others houses. not mine.

aaaaaah stickey you say so much of what i want to say so beautifully.

i am an idealist. and i feel v. deeply for my dd and her kind of personality. for her mostly the world is not a v. happy place to live. since she was 3 she has been calling herself an alien, wierd. so if she can learn to seek out the joys in life - the world wont be such a dark tormented place as her dad and uncles find it.

like the buddhists say if we can find something enjoyable (sometimes it just means changing how we view) about every hateful thing then life is not such a pain. (i am totally using my own words here).

north of 60 you said your child is comfortable with just a few words. few words are just fine. again its what and how u say that matters. not the amount of words. for instance i hate the term 'i love you'. it has been toooo 'hallmarkicized'. that is just me. its become too shallow for me. but i say so much by just 'understanding' my dd. empathising with her. my dad and i never used those words but the silence or the unspoken language shouted those words out more loudly than i could ever say it.

even with an 18 month old you can make them feel that we co-exist. that we help each other to get the work done. it isnt an autocraty - where one commands and the other one follows. it isnt a democracy either where the voice of the some matter and the voice of some dont. in my world everyone matters and you keep negotiating till you meet all needs. i mean many times its the effort that makes the difference. not the solution.

DevaMajka - yup. i came across NVC about a year ago. this last week i just discovered their views on parenting. it has completely changed me and my life forever. it helped that they totally matched my philosphy and so it gave me tools to figure out stuff i couldnt do. i cant tell you how joyful it had made my life. and the few things i have to do that is not joyful - it certainly has taken the edge of the pain of doing it. it has sooo improved my relationship with my exh. he hasnt changed. what has changed is me. and that has had an effect on him.

the way i parent is the way i try to live my life. i have hope if i can guide my child to be who she wants to be and to learn to coexist with her (or the world) in a meaningful way then someday there wont have to be another iraq.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think with the handwashing-snack connection to me anyway there is more causality there. It's a pretty easy explanation (not that the child will comply) that our hands have germs we don't want in our mouths.

For me that's different than taking a stand on the tidying up before going out to play. It might not be for other people and that's fine, but I see the second as more punitive because the correlation between "tidy house" and "outdoor time" is not the same as "germs can make us sick." If that makes sense.


makes sense!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
but i think the way it is phrased needn't be so adversarial. how about just "let's get washed up kids it's time for snacks" nor does it need to be so "universal truth" sounding. "you can't eat snacks without washing your hands..." is simply not true. people do it all the time. i'm being nitpicky as hell here i know







but, ykwim?

as far as rose colored glasses and seeking joy and happiness- you don't have to teach a child how to seek out joy and happiness if you don't want to. however, the default state of the world is un-happiness so why wouldn't i want to give my kid the tools to go out into the world being, at the very least, conscious of their own state of mind within that mindset? ultimately, your own state of mind is the only thing you have any real control over.

i want my child to have the inner tools to accept peacefully what he can't change (responsibility/obligation) and 'do' the rest of his life with enjoyment and enthusiasm.

maybe that is idealistic. personally, i'd rather see more idealism in the world than pessimism.

agreed. re: rose colored glasses = that's been my point all along with this. i'm not saying i don't want to promote the seeking of joy and happiness. i was more responding to poster(s) who seemed to couch every request they made with a "but only if you really want to attitude" that i wasn't really understanding. to me it was an implication that we ALWAYS have a choice and that we shouldn't be doing anything that we weren't happy doing. i TOTALLY agree that i want my children to be able to accept what they can't change and to do the rest with joy and enthusiasm. i just didn't want to go so far as to imply to my children they never had to do anything they didn't want to do b/c it didn't seem realistic.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

jackson's mama, please read your signature quote very slowly, then relate it to what i wrote. you say you don't want your kid to see the world through rose colored glasses. would you rather they were dark and dreary? because i don't think that's what pam leo had in mind when she wrote that.









north, no offense but you do sound pretty pessimistic. i'm really wondering why you bothered to weigh in on this topic at all since everything you've posted has been not just negative but often hostile as well.

i'm not some flaky idiot and i hope i don't encourage my kid to become one. he already knows way more than most 5 year olds about the sh*t parts of life. (how could he not when there's been a war going on the whole time he's been alive?







) mostly, though, i try to help him see how society harms itself by operating from a place of FEAR. teaching him that life is a series of obligations he must uphold only feeds the fear. when can we find joy in _all_ our daily tasks we can spread LOVE to others by our joyful example. giving more= getting more. it sounds simple (or simple-minded







) but it's actually really hard in the face of sometimes overwhelming negativity. like i said before, though, i do it because it's the _only way_. a scared, joyless life isn't worth living.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
i'm not saying i don't want to promote the seeking of joy and happiness. i was more responding to poster(s) who seemed to couch every request they made with a "but only if you really want to attitude" that i wasn't really understanding. to me it was an implication that we ALWAYS have a choice and that we shouldn't be doing anything that we weren't happy doing. i TOTALLY agree that i want my children to be able to accept what they can't change and to do the rest with joy and enthusiasm. i just didn't want to go so far as to imply to my children they never had to do anything they didn't want to do b/c it didn't seem realistic.

i guess that would be me









i use those words because my dd is old. and she likes words.

before we had those words it was my action that was done instead of those words. when i would join my dd and make clean up fun. i do it to myself too. when i have to do dishes i put on my favourite music and both my dd and i dance and sing to make the task more 'joyful'. we all ARE doing things we dont want to do. what i am trying to do here is to somehow make even the not fun things funner. for instance my dd hates doing homework. she found a way to add cartoons to her homework. it not only cracks her up but also cracks up her teacher. somedays she tells me she is willing to do it but doesnt really want to do it. i see there that she is asking me to help to make is more fun. so i find something that works for us - pantomime or music or something more fun to do later on.

how john lennon wrote about his mother was one of the great influences of who i wanted to be as a mother. he loved how she did all those funny things and how he was totally enchanted by her.

i feel my greatest task as a mother is to guide my dd how to find the joy. how it is in one's hand to do it. and how to do it. if she can bounce back from all that life gets you down with as an adult then i have acheived what i wanted to do.

at 5 my dd reaslised how big the world was. and how she had to coexist in it. and create her own joy.

here is one of my favourite examples from NVC.

the 'creator' of NVC talked about how for teh first time his son had to go to a public school when he was 10 or 12 years old. the son was v. anxious. he had long hair. and the first thing that happened was a teacher met him in the hall as he was going to his first class and said something really mean about his long hair and how he should cut it. i dont remember the exact words. and so the father asked what his son felt. his son shrugged and said 'i guess he didnt like long hair'. and his dad was just floored. he asked his son if he felt angry or frustrated or judged. but his son said he just felt sorry for the teacher. 'he was bald dad.'


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I think the value in anaylzing our words is more for ourselves than our children, honestly. I do believe that intent (usually) comes through regardless of wording.

That's probably the most logical thing I've read in this whole thread (besides what I've written, of course







). I can TOTALLY related to thinking about my own actions as a way of understanding MY part in the relationship. Very seldom do I put that much thought into it in terms of whether or not I'm creating a manipulated praise junky, or some such. We have a great, open, genuine, freely communicative relationship, and worrying about how _she_ takes things is not as important as how I reflect upon myself as a person and a parent. I think if I do that, the rest will fall into place. If that makes sense.

But, like I said, I'm manipulative and coercive (by MDC GD standards), and I don't think shame or embarrassment is always bad, and I do use the word no, so take that for what it's worth.


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Yeah. I have expectations for my kids. They know what they are, and they are 'age-appropriate'. I guess I am not a GD parent because I do impose consequenses when expectations are not met.

I don't think that the way I parent is manipulative, though, because I don't mince words with my kids. It may be coersive, but I'm honest.

I totally agree with N.O. 60 regarding manipulation and GD philosophy.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
We have a great, open, genuine, freely communicative relationship, and worrying about how _she_ takes things is not as important as how I reflect upon myself as a person and a parent. I think if I do that, the rest will fall into place. If that makes sense.

I caught and skimmed through a lot of this, but couldn't really get some of this out of my head. First, let me say that I'm glad that North of 60 brought these issues up, because I think it is worth discussing and learning from the dialogue, even if there are disagrements.

I've been wondering if you could explain the statment a bit more.... the reflecting upon yourself being greater than how your child takes things....
I had to read it MANY times before it sunk in, and I just want to know more before I assume my conclusion is correct, for one.... and just fwiw, I think what you are saying about personal reflection is something that is brilliant and very much a part of gd.

Jessica


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
I've been wondering if you could explain the statment a bit more.... the reflecting upon yourself being greater than how your child takes things....

It boils down to intent. I think the intent behind my words/actions will dictate what kind of person I'm raising more than how I intricately phrase a question or statement. And the thing with intent is that it comes from within. If I'm not intending to be maliciously manipulative, and that I sincerely _just_ want to get the toys picked up so our day runs that much smoother, I think that's going to shine through in the interaction regardless of how I word it.

So when I say I'm really not that concerned with how she takes things, and that I reflect personally upon myself more than I think about how to phrase things, it's because I think we're all human, we make mistakes, we learn from them, and we can't to foster open communication if we start off constantly conscious of the things were NOT supposed to say (don't say "please", don't say "no", don't give praise, don't say "good", don't call them "pretty", etc).

I just think that if a person genuinely strives to be caring, empathetic, respectful, loving, etc, then they will be. Stop over analyzing everything. If you're a caring, loving parent, your kids will know it!


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
jackson's mama, please read your signature quote very slowly, then relate it to what i wrote. you say you don't want your kid to see the world through rose colored glasses. would you rather they were dark and dreary? because i don't think that's what pam leo had in mind when she wrote that.







.

first, i guess i have to clear up what i'm saying here. i want my child to be happy and seek joy and i do NOT want him to view the word as a dark dreary place full of drudgery and obligations ONLY. however, do you believe it was Pam Leo's intent for us to make our children believe that they'd eternally be the center of the universe? I don't feel that the things we're talking about are mutually exclusive. i think we can model and teach the seeking of joy while ALSO teaching our children that sometimes, life isn't always fun but that we still have to live those parts too. i don't want to make my childrens' life suck so that they'll be "ready" for the "real world" when they turn 18. i also don't want to miss the opportunity to teach them along the way in age appropriate manner how to function alone, in the family, with friends, with coworkers, etc...it seems that if you are NEVER requiring a child to go against his or her desire to do something they fully want to do that you are priming them for extreme self-centeredness. i think real life has to be a bit more balanced than that. maybe you are saying that if we teach "joy-seeking" that the "stuff you don't want to do" suddenly becomes joyful?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
north, no offense but you do sound pretty pessimistic. i'm really wondering why you bothered to weigh in on this topic at all since everything you've posted has been not just negative but often hostile as well.

i'm glad she weighed in. doesn't seem like we'd have much of a discussion if everyone were agreeing on this topic. it's nice to hear from both sides and fwiw, i haven't found anything hostile in her posts. obviously some things some might disagree with, but not hostile.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
i'm not some flaky idiot and i hope i don't encourage my kid to become one. he already knows way more than most 5 year olds about the sh*t parts of life. (how could he not when there's been a war going on the whole time he's been alive?







) mostly, though, i try to help him see how society harms itself by operating from a place of FEAR. teaching him that life is a series of obligations he must uphold only feeds the fear. when can we find joy in _all_ our daily tasks we can spread LOVE to others by our joyful example. giving more= getting more. it sounds simple (or simple-minded







) but it's actually really hard in the face of sometimes overwhelming negativity. like i said before, though, i do it because it's the _only way_. a scared, joyless life isn't worth living.

i totally agree with this. but again, if we are constantly telling our children that they only have to do what THEY want to do, at what point do they have responsibility? i still say that teaching our children to seek joy does not preclude expecting them to be responsible - even when it's not fun.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i feel my greatest task as a mother is to guide my dd how to find the joy. how it is in one's hand to do it. and how to do it. if she can bounce back from all that life gets you down with as an adult then i have acheived what i wanted to do.

this is wonderful and i agree. but i personally don't feel that doing this means we can't also foster responsibility in an age-appropriate manner.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
the 'creator' of NVC talked about how for teh first time his son had to go to a public school when he was 10 or 12 years old. the son was v. anxious. he had long hair. and the first thing that happened was a teacher met him in the hall as he was going to his first class and said something really mean about his long hair and how he should cut it. i dont remember the exact words. and so the father asked what his son felt. his son shrugged and said 'i guess he didnt like long hair'. and his dad was just floored. he asked his son if he felt angry or frustrated or judged. but his son said he just felt sorry for the teacher. 'he was bald dad.'

i would hope for the same response from my sons, but i fail to see how being asked to help around the house is going to lead my sons down a path of anger, frustration, and feeling judged.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
It boils down to intent. I think the intent behind my words/actions will dictate what kind of person I'm raising more than how I intricately phrase a question or statement. And the thing with intent is that it comes from within. If I'm not intending to be maliciously manipulative, and that I sincerely _just_ want to get the toys picked up so our day runs that much smoother, I think that's going to shine through in the interaction regardless of how I word it.

So when I say I'm really not that concerned with how she takes things, and that I reflect personally upon myself more than I think about how to phrase things, it's because I think we're all human, we make mistakes, we learn from them, and we can't to foster open communication if we start off constantly conscious of the things were NOT supposed to say (don't say "please", don't say "no", don't give praise, don't say "good", don't call them "pretty", etc).

I just think that if a person genuinely strives to be caring, empathetic, respectful, loving, etc, then they will be. Stop over analyzing everything. If you're a caring, loving parent, your kids will know it!











i believe the original posting had to do with "manipulation" - how we word things to our children to get something accomplished and it's grown to whether or not we should even bother because if what we're wanting to happen is a) for our benefit or b) not something the child is going to enjoy, then we should just forget about it. so we are discussing whether we have to tiptoe around how we speak AND whether we can have any expectations of our childrens' behavior.
have i got this right? i need to stop b/c my head is hurting.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 










i believe the original posting had to do with "manipulation" - how we word things to our children to get something accomplished and it's grown to whether or not we should even bother because if what we're wanting to happen is a) for our benefit or b) not something the child is going to enjoy, then we should just forget about it. so we are discussing whether we have to tiptoe around how we speak AND whether we can have any expectations of our childrens' behavior.
have i got this right? i need to stop b/c my head is hurting.









Hi! OP here, thanks for summing that up for me. I have been reading everyone's post, but I had difficulty with responding...so I've just been trying to keep up.
Someone mentioned intent. This is why I have difficulty with hearing the word 'manipulation' when I am trying to teach my dd to take care of X first and then we can do Y. My intent is not to punish and my heart toward her is lovingly helping her to understand that sometimes we have to do X before we do Y. The word manipulation makes it sound like I am an evil momma contriving in a dishonest way to make her do something unbeknownst to her.

I believe there is order in this universe. Things are not random. Yes, there is authority in this universe. I have to admit that I will never be able to just let my dd decide if she wants to do something or not. I will treat her with the utmost respect, but she will learn about obligation and responsibility in a loving way.
What I call teaching, others are calling manipulation and it kind of stings to hear that because my INTENT is not dishonest. I respectfully disagree with the EXTREME consensual living philosophy. I agree with having conversations to understand one another's needs and doing our best to meet needs. I agree with trying to come to a consensus. I agree with being flexible helping each other out. But if I need to teach dd something by being firm, yet loving, and exercising my authority as her parent because it will benefit HER, and not because I am on some kind of power trip, then so be it. If my intent is to benefit her and my heart is honest and loving toward her, then the word 'manipulation' is being misused.

I'm really tired...sorry about the wording. I hope I made some sense.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
If my intent is to benefit her and my heart is honest and loving toward her, then *the word 'manipulation' is being misused.*

Absolutely!

Just because someone is not 100% in favor of doing something, or a task is not 100% fun, or because there is a reward (either arbitrary or natural), or because there is a consequence (either arbitrary or natural), and the person does it anyway, it doesn't make them "manipulated".

Manipulate:

Quote:

to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manipulate

Quote:

to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate

Quote:

To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/manipulate

You are not being skillfully artful or shrewd to gain control of someone for your own purposes. It's pretty straight forward - "please pick up your toys, or we can't go to the park." If anything, I see a bribe there. Not manipulation. I'm not really implying that the child should feel one way or another about it, or trying to "artfully" push toward a decision, it's pretty clear - don't pick up the toys, don't go to the park.

Motives people, motives! When you are UPFRONT about a task that you want to get done, and you are upfront about what happens when it gets done, or doesn't get done, that is not by definition manipulative. If anything, it could be considered bribery. But not manipulative.

If the intent is such that you simply can't be bothered to do something for yourself and you use an important bartering tool to get someone to comply for your own selfish reasons, then yeah, that could be manipulative. But is anyone talking about doing that? I don't think so. We're all loving parents who are busy - working, go to school, or taking care of a home and/or other children. We want/need help. Receiving said help makes our day go smoother for everyone. While she's picking up blocks I'm making snacks, or folding laundry, or studying, or making dinner, etc. My motives are not to _make her comply_ for my own selfish reasons, so how can it be manipulative?


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

i see the statement "please pick up your toys or we can't go to the park" as a bribe which, imo, is manipulation.

the advantage of picking up toys are purely for the parent's benefit. withholding the park is how you are going about achieving your benefit.
you as a parent are controlling or playing upon your children 'by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage'.
it may not be _insidious_ but it may be _unfair_ (kid can't go to park alone) and it is definitely an _artful_ way of getting the blocks picked up. a non "artful" way would be to pick them up yourself.

i just don't understand what is so wrong in saying "i have a need for a clean house before going out. you have a need to go to the park. let's figure out how we can both get our needs met." not every time going back to this explanation but from the get-go simply framing our interactions in a more respectful way.

there are just so many other ways to say what your needs are and go about getting them met without withholding or bribing. that doesn't mean that consequences don't exist or we don't say 'no' but we say it in honesty and from a position of 'this is my boundary', or 'this is my need' or by explaining truly logical (not "artful" ) consequences.

if you have practiced how to appropriately articulate needs from the get-go and been honest in your motivations and upfront in soliciting the help then there doesn't have to be a power struggle. it is a relationship built on mutual respect. child has a need to go to park, you have a need for clean house so we work together to get needs met.

when the child is old enough to walk to the park himself (or go to a movie or do whatever it is he wants to do) "you can't do x until you do y" doesn't work anymore. it ceases to be an effective tool. he can say 'screw you, i'm out of here!' or 'you can't make me' or 'i don't want to go to the park anyway'.

it is the _wording_ of 'you can't do x unless you do y' that makes it ripe for a power struggle and has shut down negotiation.

i like the house tidy and i totally resent cleaning by myself but i am willing to work out a plan that meets everyone's needs. i plan to be totally upfront about that with my child. i'm already that way with the dh -somehow we manage, without the use of bribery, withholding, and manipulation, to get both our needs met and keep the house pretty clean.

i guess i am thinking big picture- beyond having an obedient child. i'm not saying that i'm ok with a child who is selfish, un-disciplined and has never heard "no'. not at all!

i just think there are more effective way to go about teaching children logical consequences and negotiation. if those 'personally advantageous' type interactions with my child are based in a framework of bribery or withholding (which i see as 2 forms of manipulation) when does a child actually learn

1) about real choices and personal boundaries?
2) how to communicate _their own_ needs and their wants without using withholding and bribery?

eventually, i want my child to become a _self_- disciplined, honest, adult with their own set of values. i want my child to be emotionally intelligent.

how many parents consider their baby as manipulative because he cries when he is put down? sadly, many- and what is missing? "language". language is the way we communicate intent.

as far as intent- intention implies deliberate thought.

for me personally, i know what i am capable of and i'm willing to put in the effort to listen to my own *language* and so why _not_ do it? i'm not afraid i'm going to screw my kid up if i phrase something 'wrong' or say "no" but why not push myself a little bit? why not make clear my intent with my language if i can do it? why not question how one talks to a child the same way one questions how a child is birthed, fed, and put to bed? i don't think it is simply a matter of doing what *works* but wanting to do our best for our kids and our relationship with them.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
i see the statement "please pick up your toys or we can't go to the park" as a bribe which, imo, is manipulation.

the advantage of picking up toys are purely for the parent's benefit. withholding the park is how you are going about achieving your benefit.
you as a parent are controlling or playing upon your children 'by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage'.
it may not be _insidious_ but it may be _unfair_ (kid can't go to park alone) and it is definitely an _artful_ way of getting the blocks picked up. a non "artful" way would be to pick them up yourself.

Well it certainly has the potential to be as underhanded as you're making out to seem, which is where the whole intent thing comes in. But the vast majority of people are talking about needing help and requesting it for a variety of legitimate reasons that go far beyond "your toys annoy mommy so please pick them up so I don't have to". It's more about having everyone pitch in so everyone's needs are important and addressed. You're twisting intent around to suit your point, which I think is "artful". Ironic, since you're trying to make a point about manipulation.

If I was sitting on the sofa watching Maury and drinking shirley temples while talking on the phone long distance to my girl friend back home and wanted my kid to stop blabbing at me while I tried to get my home town gossip and decided to bribe her into picking up her toys in the next room with a trip to the park that I didn't intend on fulfuling... then yeah, it would be underhanded, artful, insidious, twisted, unfair, and to my own advantage. But is anyone really coming into this discussion from that angle?


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
*the advantage of picking up toys are purely for the parent's benefit.* withholding the park is how you are going about achieving your benefit.

It is not purely for the parent's benefit. It is for the family's benefit and eventually for the child's benefit and ultimately for society's benefit. Raising a kid who sees a need to pick up after him/herself is a benefit to everyone including the child.

From my perspective, (we may just have to agree to disagree) I am teaching them to do X before we can go do Y. I do not view this as bribery. Like North of 60 I think that you are twisting it into a bribe. Every day I face situations where I have to do X before I can do Y. I don't see this as bribing my kiddo. Rather, I am teaching her, by example as well, about real life.

I just want to clarify that the statement, 'Please pick up toys before we go to the park', is not the only statement that I would make. Like most of you I would offer to help or make it into a game. I would even be flexible on when the toys get picked up. Or even leaving one favorite toy out. I don't think any of us just make a blanket statement and become a hard nose about it.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
the advantage of picking up toys are purely for the parent's benefit. withholding the park is how you are going about achieving your benefit.

when the child is old enough to walk to the park himself (or go to a movie or do whatever it is he wants to do) "you can't do x until you do y" doesn't work anymore. it ceases to be an effective tool. he can say 'screw you, i'm out of here!' or 'you can't make me' or 'i don't want to go to the park anyway'.

Like poster Shami said, it is not purely for the parent's benefit. Other than that, how would you handle it if a child persistently refused to pick up after him or herself?

I would hope children old enough to go to the park alone have learned to pick up after themselves atleast in rudimentary ways!


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Shami-

Quote:

It is not purely for the parent's benefit. It is for the family's benefit and eventually for the child's benefit and ultimately for society's benefit. Raising a kid who sees a need to pick up after him/herself is a benefit to everyone including the child.

really? why? that's purely _your_ value. maybe other people don't mind having their belongings strewn about. i don't see how it matters to any one else if i pick up after myself or not before i move on to my next project...

Quote:

I am teaching them to do X before we can go do Y.
but why? why does one need to do x before y? because you said so? there's a hundred ways to bake a cake. just because you like things done a certain way doesn't mean it is that way

Quote:

I do not view this as bribery. Like North of 60 I think that you are twisting it into a bribe. Every day I face situations where I have to do X before I can do Y. I don't see this as bribing my kiddo. Rather, I am teaching her, by example as well, about real life.

I just want to clarify that the statement, 'Please pick up toys before we go to the park', is not the only statement that I would make. Like most of you I would offer to help or make it into a game. I would even be flexible on when the toys get picked up. Or even leaving one favorite toy out. I don't think any of us just make a blanket statement and become a hard nose about it
.

i'm not twisting statements. specific examples were given. i stated why i viewed that as manipulative. North _of_60 even said that the statement she gave was a "bribe" but she didn't think it was manipulative.
well, i think bribes by their very nature are manipulative.

i'm addressing specific examples and i stated why i believe specific wording is important. i just believe that there are better ways to teach a child how to be responsible without using that x vs. y kind of statement which i view as manipulative.

the bottom line is we are arguing semantics and some of us feel they matter and others do not. i've never questioned motive i merely questioned method. i don't think that anyone has evil or mean motives in getting their kids on board to tidy the house. i also don't think there is anything wrong with teaching a kid responsibility and team work and cooperation.

i suppose you're correct we basically disagree over how to go about doing that.

Quote:

Well it certainly has the potential to be as underhanded as you're making out to seem, which is where the whole intent thing comes in. But the vast majority of people are talking about needing help and requesting it for a variety of legitimate reasons that go far beyond "your toys annoy mommy so please pick them up so I don't have to". It's more about having everyone pitch in so everyone's needs are important and addressed. You're twisting intent around to suit your point, which I think is "artful". Ironic, since you're trying to make a point about manipulation.
North of 60- i don't particularly like being accused of being "manipulative" when i directly quoted you and merely stated my viewpoint which happened to differ. i'm not making anything out to be underhanded. i feel like the attacks on the thoughts i've put forth are kind of off- base and unwarranted. i'm merely sharing my ideas and thoughts on the topic, including the semantics of discipline which seemed like part of the conversation. a huge part. the OP named the thread 'manipulation. am i missing something?' and i shared my thoughts on the topic. at least that's how i took it. i'm not jumping into a thread about something completely unrelated to manipulation and discipline and calling someone out on their parenting. i would never do that it's not my thing. if someone asks for opinions then i think they should be prepared to hear all the different ones.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
Shami-
really? why? that's purely _your_ value. maybe other people don't mind having their belongings strewn about. i don't see how it matters to any one else if i pick up after myself or not before i move on to my next project....

It might matter to an employer, co workers, teachers, roommates, siblings, a spouse, and to her. Sometimes my messiness bothers me, and sometimes it doesn't. I know my messiness has bothered others and I am glad my mom worked hard to help me be neat, which doesn't come natural for me. It's work to be neat.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Like poster Shami said, it is not purely for the parent's benefit. Other than that, how would you handle it if a child persistently refused to pick up after him or herself?

I would hope children old enough to go to the park alone have learned to pick up after themselves atleast in rudimentary ways!


i'd probably start by limiting the stuff he had access to in the first place. my ds can't pick up after himself- he's 1. right now, we don't have every toy out nor are they all over the house. they are contained to his bedroom and i don't care if they are left out in his room. i don't believe it's my job to 'control' my kid so i focus on controlling the environment.

Quote:

when the child is old enough to walk to the park himself (or go to a movie or do whatever it is he wants to do) "you can't do x until you do y" doesn't work anymore. it ceases to be an effective tool. he can say 'screw you, i'm out of here!' or 'you can't make me' or 'i don't want to go to the park anyway'.

my point when i wrote that was that when parents make x vs. y statements they set the stage for power struggles later on and because x vs. y statements set the stage for power struggles later on why not practice stating your needs and the needs of the family in a more clear way and less manipulative way when the kid is little.

we would never say "if you don't do x you can't do y" to another adult. it's just weird unless there is a logical (not manufactured or "artful") consequence so why say it to a kid.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

One is too young, yes. I was wondering about kids older than that, when I asked how you would handle persistent disregard when environment control is redundant.

IMO, the adult to child comparison is a fallacy. but, speaking for myself, I do apply to myself the can't do 'x' since 'y' is not done, yet! For example, friends have a movie outing planned, but, I will excuse myself because I have yet to do/complete a certain pending task.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
Shami-

but why? why does one need to do x before y? because you said so? there's a hundred ways to bake a cake. just because you like things done a certain way doesn't mean it is that way

Because in real life many times, not everytime, we do have to do x before y.
I have to feed, nap, change dipe, before we can go play. I'd rather just go play, but I can't. I have a responsibility to dd to care for her first.

I have to clean off the kitchen table so that we can all sit together and eat.

I have to put gas in my car before we go shopping. I hate pumping gas. X before Y.

I could go on and on, but it's getting kind of boring!

And one more thing... I am the parent and someone has to take the lead in how we are going to carry on through our day. So on any given day I need to grocery shop and do other errands. DD needs play time, nap time and eating time. So who is going to put things in order if I don't? Hence X before Y. It is just logical, and even unavoidable, to teach her this basic principle.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

ITA, Shami.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
It might matter to an employer, co workers, teachers, roommates, siblings, a spouse, and to her. Sometimes my messiness bothers me, and sometimes it doesn't. I know my messiness has bothered others and I am glad my mom worked hard to help me be neat, which doesn't come natural for me. It's work to be neat.

i know first hand how annoying it is to have employees who don't clean up after themselves but what is even more annoying is employees who lack self motivation and require "punishments" and dangling carrots to get them to finish one task before they start another. i can't help but think that was the way they were raised. at some point a person has to learn self-motivation not motivation by manipulation. or not i guess...

as an employer, i spell out what the requirements are for the job from the get- go. i don't have time to constantly manufacture consequences to get simple tasks completed and i'm not interested in being in a manipulative relationship. if they don't fulfill the requirements it's not a good fit and they no longer have a job.

same when i had roommates- we had a mutual agreement and we spelled it out. there's no- 'you don't get to go out with us on Friday because you didn't clean the bathroom'. you do it because you share the same values and you like living with the same kind of people and you're down with the standards of the house not because you're afraid of not getting a treat.

i understand what you are saying- i truly do but i just see it from a different perspective. i think you can define clearly the standards of the family and figure out how to get everyone's needs met without using manipulation.

the x before y scenarios you are giving in your last post are _logical_. they are not manufactured consequences. i agree with you. those make sense.
telling your kid you are not taking him to the park unless he cleans his room is a manufactured consequence. the park isn't going to magically disappear if he doesn't clean the room. if he could drive he could say "see ya' mom i'm going without you!" so then where are you? your method doesn't work anymore...game over.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
One is too young, yes. I was wondering about kids older than that, when I asked how you would handle persistent disregard when environment control is redundant.

*IMO, the adult to child comparison is a fallacy*. but, speaking for myself, I do apply to myself the can't do 'x' since 'y' is not done, yet! For example, friends have a movie outing planned, but, I will excuse myself because I have yet to do/complete a certain pending task.

ok then that would explain a lot. but i don't see my child like that. i don't think that just because i can *make up* consequences i should. i want to have a relationship with him that transcends the difference in our age and our abilities. i see myself as his guide and teacher not as his puppet master.

you excusing yourself from a movie because you have task you feel is important is your choice. so what? do you think that makes you a better person? maybe it just means you're good at planning your time. i don't see how you having self-control and taking care of things you have to take care of has anything to do with manipulating children.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't know of many employers dangling carrots to get employees to perform their basic tasks. But, I do know of rewards and honors for motivating excellence and high achievement.

A child is still learning, their responses are often erratic and impulsive. Hopefully, roommates have passed that stage.

Certainly there is something called age-based strategy and response modulation.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
you excusing yourself from a movie because you have task you feel is important is your choice. so what? do you think that makes you a better person? maybe it just means you're good at planning your time. i don't see how you having self-control and taking care of things you have to take care of has anything to do with manipulating children.

Better person? Err, I was responding to this part of your earlier post:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
we would never say "if you don't do x you can't do y" to another adult.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Picking up the toys before we go to the park is part of our day. As I said earlier, I have to take the lead in organizing our day. How are we all going to get needs met/tasks completed if I don't lay it all out in some fashion?
Stickywicket, I get your point in just telling the kiddo that I need the house to be clean because of xyz. Being upfront and honest. That's always good. If they don't want to help, then what? Let's say it's your five or six year old that says no, not gonna do it. You've tried to explain and be honest, but your kiddo says I don't have to help. Assuming you have been leading and guiding your child from day one to be a functioning member of your household, what is your plan when a child old enough to understand your needing a clean house doesn't give a rip at the moment. Will your child still get to do their fun stuff?

Older kids such as teenagers still rely upon me for fun stuff. Driving? Hmm... they won't get the keys from me if they don't function in the house to help the family. I guess that's traditional reward/punishment. I don't know, I'm not there yet...kind of scary to think about! I'm trying to figure out my one year old


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Seawind said,
"IMO, *the adult to child comparison is a fallacy*. but, speaking for myself, I do apply to myself the can't do 'x' since 'y' is not done, yet! For example, friends have a movie outing planned, but, I will excuse myself because I have yet to do/complete a certain pending task."








to the whole thing and especially the bold part.

No I don't speak to my child as I would and adult. I also don't babble to adults and ask if they are going poo poo.









However, I do my best to speak respectfully to all ages.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

what do i do when my child is 5 or 6 and realizes that he's an autonomous being and he doesn't have to do what i ask of him? .... my feeling is that if you are gearing it up towards that from the jump- "you are an individual but you are part of a team"- maybe, you may not have to have a battle of wills drawn out over picking up toys.

if you are teaching your child from the very beginning that he is own person with needs and wants and boundaries don't you think that he will understand at some point that you are, too?

"child, i would like the toys picked up. we are going to the park. if i have to help you i am wasting the time that i could be spending getting the sandwiches ready which means we'll have to spend less time at the park"

or

"you don't feel like picking up toys? i guess i understand that i don't feel like picking up toys either. why don't we do it together so it's only half as icky?

or

outside of the rush rush rush to get somewhere you practice negotiation

'let's sit down and make a list of all the things we need to get done in the house. mama is going to do some, daddy is going to do some, you're going to do some. ok, where shall we start- hmmm- vacuuming"

i guess i just operate from the premise that children (and people in general) like to belong and so in order to belong we co-operate. people have a need to be understood and recognized and having needs met and being validated is how one feels the "belonging".

i don't really anticipate a defiant child. i try to make sure his needs are met and i try to anticipate what is up ahead as far as needs being met. i think a kid flat out saying "no" in a defiant manner is a kid who isn't getting a need met and hasn't learned the appropriate language to communicate that. maybe he doesn't want to go to the park. maybe he was building something and picking it up would ruin it. maybe my transitions from block playing to park going is too rushed and i need to mellow it down. i wouldn't just assume my kid was being a jerk anymore than i would consider a crying baby to be manipulative. it is a matter of lack of language, as i have said before.

so, if i'm telling my kid from babyhood "you can't do x until you do y" that is all he is learning. he isn't going to learn the right words to express how he feels when he doesn't want to ( for whatever reason) do x before y. therefore the words he uses are "no", running away, temper tantrums, or when he's older being sneaky and manipulative himself- childish words and behaviors.

i do feel really strongly that you can talk to a child like an adult- meaning with respect. why not treat him how i expect to be treated back?


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
North of 60- i don't particularly like being accused of being "manipulative" when i directly quoted you and merely stated my viewpoint which happened to differ. i'm not making anything out to be underhanded. i feel like the attacks on the thoughts i've put forth are kind of off- base and unwarranted. i'm merely sharing my ideas and thoughts on the topic, including the semantics of discipline which seemed like part of the conversation. a huge part. the OP named the thread 'manipulation. am i missing something?' and i shared my thoughts on the topic. at least that's how i took it. i'm not jumping into a thread about something completely unrelated to manipulation and discipline and calling someone out on their parenting. i would never do that it's not my thing. if someone asks for opinions then i think they should be prepared to hear all the different ones.

You were not attacked. I simply pointed out that we can all take the "semantics" of dicipline and use it to make our point, and depending on our personal view points, use it for or against our arguments. I think it's ironic that you used an example that I think is pretty weightless and explained it away as "artful and insidious" while trying to make a claim _against_ manipulation. Due to my beliefs on these semantics, I found what you were doing to be a manipulation of the example ("please help me pick up toys or we can't go to the park").

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
ok then that would explain a lot. but i don't see my child like that. i don't think that just because i can *make up* consequences i should. i want to have a relationship with him that transcends the difference in our age and our abilities. i see myself as his guide and teacher *not as his puppet master.*

And here's the difference. Not having time to go to the park, or play dress up, or do any number of "fun" things because mommy has spent a good portion of the day cleaning up by herself is not a *made up* consequence. That's reality when you live in a communal living space. It's really unfair to expect one person to make sacrifices so that others can have fun. But then again, I don't follow suit with the notion that mothers have to be selfless martyrs for the sake of their children.

As for the puppet master comment... all I can say is that you obviously have not read this thread with an open mind if you think anyone here is a puppet master. My child ALWAYS has a choice. However sometimes there are consequences that come with those choices. It is a not a goal of mine to create a puppet. It is, however, a goal of mine to create a child who can analyze the outcome of a situation, who can critically think and negotiate, who makes choices based on negative and positive consequences (because life is NOT as simple as simply saying "I don't _want_ to") etc. I have to do the same things in life. For example right now. I should be studying, but I'm on MDC instead. The consequence is that I will have to work extra hard to catch up because my professor isn't going to give me an extension simply because I _wanted_ to play online. I ALWAYS have choices in life, but sometimes I really have to weigh the pro's and con's.

(And I won't mention the fact that you felt attacked, but then went on to insinuate the other's are acting as puppet masters...)


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
so, if i'm telling my kid from babyhood "you can't do x until you do y" that is all he is learning. he isn't going to learn the right words to express how he feels when he doesn't want to ( for whatever reason) do x before y. therefore the words he uses are "no", running away, temper tantrums, or when he's older being sneaky and manipulative himself- childish words and behaviors.

I think you really need to go back and re-read. Where did anyone say it was even remotely age appropriate to communicate like that to a baby? Even a year ago it wasn't appropriate for us. Only very recently has she begun to understand the process of consequences and rewards (whether personal or arbitrary). You're drawing meaning from this that no one but you has placed, so I can see why you are so confused by it.

And since you opened Pandora's box about your prediction for children who have to deal with consequences, let me tell you my prediction for children who don't. They'll be self centered little brats who thinks the world revolves around them far, far outside of toddler hood. The thought a 10 year old saying "I don't want put my shoes away because I'm playing video games" makes me want to gouge my eye balls out with a rusty paper clip. Or about the jack ass in the lunch room at work who leaves his coffee mugs all over the place because he is not internally motived to put them away because it brings him no joy. I could go on and on with the list of reasons that we will always have a healthy dose of reality in our house. But the beauty with reality, that you seem incapable of comprehending, is that there are always choices, always chances to negotiate and make compromises, always a right to personal expression, and so on.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

North_ of_ 60 -

i never said children don't have to deal with consequences.
i totally wholeheartedly agree! if you met me IRL i think you would be surprised that i am the one writing the posts that i have written. i'm pretty much the biggest advocate of personal responsibility i know and i run a tight ship at home and at work. i am by no means a selfless martyr nor have any intention of being one. you saying that makes me think that you believe if one person 'wins' then someone else must 'lose'. i believe we can be honest in our interactions and win all the way around.

i just don't believe manipulation is an appropriate tool to get things done or get your point across in the long term- nor do i think bribes are nor threats. two methods i consider "manipulative".

"puppetmaster" wasn't meant to imply that's what i thought of anyone else. it was meant in the sense that i'm not ok with 'pulling strings' to get my needs met. not with my kid. not with other adults. puppet master is a pretty good image in my mind and gives a pretty accurate visual (to me, but i guess not to you) for the word "manipulate".

i wasn't the one who opened the "Pandora's Box". i was asked how i would deal with a child who was old enough to defy and i said i would view it as a need that wasn't addressed. perhaps, i put it out there that if needs aren't addressed children defy, and sneak, and tantrum, etc...i never said that if you say "you can't do do x before y" your kid would grow up to be a screw up. the whole thread is an extrapolation in how people were brought up and how they intend to get children to comply with their requests and why manipulation needs to be examined.

i know many people like the OP, who had the kind of upbringing she laid out in the initial post and they are people who have a deep sense of responsibility and duty and do take care of business.

i also know plenty of people who were told "you can't do x before you do y" and they still leave their crap laying around and think nothing of starting one task before finishing another. my sister being one. oh well. i don't get my panties in a bunch and think she is a self centered brat. she just has different priorities than me. she is free to make her own choices and have her own consequences that she may or may not give a rat's ass about.

i also know plenty of those same people raised the way the OP described who think nothing of violating other peoples boundaries by manipulation to get what they want because they've never been taught how to effectively ask for what they want. they've learned you get what you want (or you are motivated to "do") either through threats or bribes. now that sucks! it's really immature. i also noticed they are always the ones who, when things bug them or people don't do what they've expected, let you know just how strict their parents were and how they were never allowed to do xyz before doing pdq. statements like 'well, i had a good upbringing i was taught about duty and responsibility' fall from their lips with the passive agressive manipulative implication that others were not.
heck, that describes _myself_ to a T! up until about 5 years ago when i had a huge shift in my thought processes and realized how freaking patronizing and manipulative that attitude is. it's a very 'us against them' attitude and divisive rather than unifying. it's still something i am really conscious of because it is so deeply ingrained from childhood. five years ago, i would have been much more judgmental and manipulative about my sister's messy house but the bottom line is -not my problem. if it were my problem today, say because we lived together, instead of bribing or threatening or stomping around making passive aggressive comments about how i was 'raised better' i think we would sit down as two adults and work it out. my needs aren't more important than hers, just different.

my proposition is just because the method laid out 'worked' for the OP and she believes she grew up to be a responsible adult doesn't mean the method works for everyone.

there are few other posters who have said 'yeah my parents did this and i turned out to be an upright citizen' well, ok then. but the question was posed for discussion. we are yapping about it, offering different opinions and perspectives. besides, people say the same thing about all kinds of stuff that this board believes chip away at the bond between parents and children (CIO, spanking, etc...). i don't think it's a bad idea to analyze how we say things to our children. we are taking it further than normal maybe and getting intelllectual about it. so what?

i take into consideration the needs of my baby. i don't say 'well you just nursed. so you can't go to sleep. you need to play first'. which is a totally manipulative attitude and a premise put out there by a particular childcare book that gets ripped apart on this board all the time and the exact same thing as "x before y". there are routines in caring for infants, of course, but there doesn't need to be manipulation.

what i was trying to say was- i feel like honoring my child's needs in infancy communicates respect that carries on through out his life.. when a child starts expressing himself with words he has to learn the right ones to get his needs met. babies cry, kids defy. giving them words and teaching a kid how to express emotions would seem to me to cut down on the "cry and defy". just my opinion. but i don't think "do x or you can't do y" are very good words for expressing our emotions, needs, wants, wishes, because it is short lived and it doesn't teach true consequences. it teaches that someone has to be there to make (in other words- artful) a consequence for you for you to be motivated to participate.

it's just so happened to be something i've thought a lot about and saw a pattern with myself and others and it got me thinking before this thread even came about. when i saw a thread about a topic that intrigued me i weighed in on it. it's not a diss on anyone's parenting. my opinion and why i feel that way. that is all.

North_of 60- you said way back that kids get the intent even if the wording is not 100% on-point.

well, i don't get the intent behind your posts...

i'm confused about why you stuck around on the thread telling posters basically "stop over analyzing everything" and then nit- picked posts. i even responded to something you called me out on (not saying "please" in a specific situation) and i told you why i felt that way and why it felt manipulative because i was willing to see your side and i wanted to clarify, yet you still continued to use it, out of context, as a example of how silly the whole topic was. why do that? why do you feel it is ok to mock some of us for trying to explain our personal need for teaching a child how to seek joyfulness and how accept peacefully the obligations and responsibilities of life?

i really, truly do not understand your intent when you tell me i am 'incapable of comprehending reality' or that my kid will grow up to be a 'self centered brat' if i don't use your method of parenting. if you disagree with the concepts i put out say so. so be it. whatever. i'll live my life you live yours but attacking me doesn't prove your point... if anything it proves mine.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Ah, the old why are you still here if you disagree. Fine, I'll pack my toys up and go home (and then maybe go to the park after








). It's been fun, though!


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

There seems to be a bit of defensiveness in some of the posts.

I think it is important to note a key component of the OP's post. And that is how the family operates as a system and the view she had of this being part of a process of how things were approached and done in her family. I really feel that constantly trying to get a child to examine feelings about *routine* matters actually undermines a child's innate ability understand his family environment as a flow and his or her part in it. Hyper focusing could create isolated viewpoints which may separate a child's involvement from that flow.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
There seems to be a bit of defensiveness in some of the posts.









i don't know if you meant that to be funny but i found it hilarious! thanks for getting us back on track here...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
I think it is important to note a key component of the OP's post. And that is how the family operates as a system and the view she had of this being part of a process of how things were approached and done in her family. I really feel that constantly trying to get a child to examine feelings about *routine* matters actually undermines a child's innate ability understand his family environment as a flow and his or her part in it. Hyper focusing could create isolated viewpoints which may separate a child's involvement from that flow.


this is an interesting observation and point.

i don't believe a parent has to go back over every single time why, for example, hand washing happened before eating or why we pick up the toys before going out to play. a simple "let's get washed up, it's dinner time" or "quick let's get the toys put away so we can get to the park" is probably what i would say in my home on a daily basis. i would assume that he knew the routine of our family and was used to how we did things.

which is why i would be pretty dumbfounded if my child suddenly said "NO!" and i'd think something was up with him. my first thought would be what's going on with him? what's different today? it wouldn't be that i have to pull rank and start in with a threat or bribe. it definitely wouldn't be 'if you don't pick up your toys we can't go to the park!' which seems a sure way to fuel a fire, imo. and not only would it add fuel to the fire but it also would create another power struggle where one didn't need to be- "fine. i don't want to go to the park." then what? no park, toys all over the place, then what happens? what do i have to threaten with next -never going to the park again? no toys? i'd have backed myself in a corner-ykwim?

so, seawind, since you asked me i'll ask you- if you had a child outright defy you and said "no- i don't want to pick up my toys!" what would you say?

ETA: ftr-this isn't asked "defensively" at all. i am seriously curious and wondering what you would do or say. you seem very level headed.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 







i don't know if you meant that to be funny but i found it hilarious!

No, I was being serious.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stickywicket67* 
so, seawind, since you asked me i'll ask you- if you had a child outright defy you and said "no- i don't want to pick up my toys!" what would you say?

When I asked you that question, I specifically put it in the context of consistent disregard (please refer to earlier post), since you mentioned validation of feelings as being of prime importance. Not for random non-cooperation. For such out of the ordinary instances, like most people, the use of common-sense and empathy is in order.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

i'm totally on board with Seawind's mood of "confused". if i weren't so tired, i'd change my mood smilie.

Anyways....i'm still lost. I read a post from Nof60, Shami, and Seawind and start shaking my head yes. Then, I read sticky's and do the same. From a "manipulator" standpoint, I feel the need to not just be the tallest person in my house. I am the parent and I respectfully set the flow of the day. Just as the PP hinted at, if my ds set the flow, who knows what would happen - we'd never eat at the dinner table, we'd be in underware all day even if our feet were ice cold, we'd eat nothing but popcorn and yogurt, and the house would be an absolute wreck. I just don't think a 3 yo naturally has it in them at that age to logically look at the day and decide what should be done and how it should be done. I don't believe there are 100 ways to bake a cake. I am all about individuality, but there comes a time where not every.single.thing can be in the gray. there is black and white out there even if there are people who refuse to acknowledge it. I guess i see myself not as the person who is controlling every thing my son does but rather setting example, giving choice when i can, letting the little things go, encouraging communication, etc...i don't say things like "if you're quiet in the restaurant, we'll go across the street to toys r us afterward for a new toy." i DO say, "you remember what 'good restaurant behavior is', right?" he usually nods yes and tells me the specifics. i then say, "if we don't have good restaurant behavior, we'll leave the restaurant and eat in the car."
Now, BOTH of those involve manipulation. I am bribing/threatening/coercing in both. In the first, it's a bribe or coercion with a new toy for good behavior. Makes no sense to me and sets the child up for expecting some type of reward for doing what, IMO, is just the right thing to do. In the second case, it's a bribe/threat/coercion with the thought of leaving the "fun place" if we are not acting appropriately. I feel OK with this one however because it seems logical. But either way you look at it, i'm manipulating. I feel quite certain that if i were to go to a restaurant with my adult girlfriends and proceeded to bubble my beverage, stand in the seat, crawl under the table, eat like a wild animal, touch food at the buffet - whatever...that they might not SAY something manipulative to me b/c they might feel out of line, embarassed, whatever - but i bet they wouldn't invite me back to lunch at a restaurant with them. so tell me (sticky?) how the way i handle "restaurant behavior" by manipulating is wrong and what i should do to be more respectful, open, encouraging of self-discipline, etc...
In all this babbling, i guess i'm saying is there are some basic "rules of life" we need to teach our children. And yes, i believe that when i say rules of life that they are rules of LIFE - everyone's. NO ONE wants to eat in a restaurant with the child i described above and it isn't fair to expect people to - especially if they don't know and love you. NO ONE wants to clean up after messy husbands and wives and coworkers the rest of their lives. So, in the reference to sticky's messy sister - apparently, it was not instilled that there are things you just DO - even if you don't want to - for the benefit of others (if she had a roommate, for example). So, if the parent's manipulated with the if not x then not y stuff and she still turned out this way, then we have to acknowledge personality as a block (as i brought up many pages ago) all along....there are going to be people who were "manipulated" who by their personality are STILL not going to follow thru. i agree with sticky in that we have to find ways to come together with love and respect and do things not out of fear but out of that love and respect. and that for different children, you'll tweak it differently. but i don't believe that we should just "accept" that "some people are just that way"...i don't think it serves our children well to just let it go with that writeoff. you can be an individual and still be considerate of others. it shouldn't matter your hairstyle, but being an inconsiderate partner, driver, coworker, etc...IS unacceptable and just plain not social. my one big problem with ALL of this is still the issue of "you don't have to do it unless you really want to/find joy in it" clause. so tell me how you get from "it's always ok to say no" to the child who is ever-considerate and mindful of others rather than a self-centered person who always puts themselves first. If they can say, "no, i don't want to right now" and that's ok when they're 3, why will they suddenly NOT be doing that when they're teens or 8 or whatever? at what age are we magically expecting them to be on board with us in this? i don't understand the whole concept of "but not unless you find it joyful" b/c to me, it's not guaranteeing any brighter of a future than the other method. either one could "backfire", right?
please, sticky, explain how it would not backfire. i'm not attacking you! i really want to hear how allowing the child "free reign" in all decision making sets them up to be considerate decision makers as older children and beyond.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm sharing my thoughts about the last batch of posts.

First and foremost I see a lot of concern about how our children will turn out as adults - able to set and meet goals, self-directed, good community members, etc. I definitely share those concerns.

But I choose not to make *every* tidy-up time or every dish clearing time into an issue. Is the *overall expectation* in my home that we all work together? Yes. 90% of the time it works fine and there is no power struggle. I see it as a marathon, not a sprint, and 90% is good enough for me.

I don't _personally_ believe that allowing my child to win/set his own priorities/experience gratification before the task *from time to time* is ruining him as a human being. Maybe it's being Canadian or being in media or being a woman or something but I guess I have seen equal, if not more, unhappiness in people who continue to meet external obligations until they are miserable, burnt out, and a real problem for those around them than those who occasionally say "no, I'm sorry, I'm too busy." Or "I need to take a vacation day tomorrow to re-focus."

Secondly, I actually find that my child, and a lot of children I know, really are motivated more to please than to disobey overall (3.5 is not the time to decide that







). I find that most of the time, if I say "hey, let's tidy up before we go to the park" that it happens. That is *also* a parenting moment - as much the one where he doesn't do it. I think we do our kids a disservice if we focus on the negative. For me, making an issue of the 1/10 times he doesn't do it is putting too much energy into the negative.

Thirdly, I think that time takes care of a lot of things. Right now my son's thinking and emotions are at a particular stage of development. If he were 8 and exhibiting the same behaviour, we could have a problem on our hands! But we would also have ten years to correct it. I refuse to live in fear of something that hasn't happened yet.

And finally, I do think that the biggest job of a parent fundamentally is to create a strong relationship of love and care with a child - that eventually becomes mutual love and care. I do see my role as creating routine and structure and leading my child to have respect and care. But *for me* at the end of the day if I must err between being too strict and too tolerant, I'm going to err on the side of the tolerant.

I personally believe it is *easier for people to learn later in life to buck up and work hard (if they didn't learn it with me) than it is for them to learn that their needs are important and they are deserving of love*. I think all of society is better at teaching that than teaching respect and love for the individual. I see that as my critical role as a parent.


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## goodmomma76 (Sep 2, 2008)

I think the OP is right on track and I agree with your statements. I do not think that is manipulative. It is teaching boundaries and consequences in logical steps.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
No, I was being serious.

When I asked you that question, I specifically put it in the context of consistent disregard (please refer to earlier post), since you mentioned validation of feelings as being of prime importance. Not for random non-cooperation. For such out of the ordinary instances, like most people, the use of common-sense and empathy is in order.

oh yeah, you did. sorry....i don't think in terms of my house being a battle ground day in and day out so it didn't lodge in my brain that way...

if a child is consistently disregarding my request i might look to some other issue going on because i don't think it is normal for a child (or anyone) to that consistently say "NO!". maybe a food allergy, or not enough sleep, or some sort of attachment disorder.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I'm sharing my thoughts about the last batch of posts.

First and foremost I see a lot of concern about how our children will turn out as adults - able to set and meet goals, self-directed, good community members, etc. I definitely share those concerns.

But I choose not to make *every* tidy-up time or every dish clearing time into an issue. Is the *overall expectation* in my home that we all work together? Yes. 90% of the time it works fine and there is no power struggle. I see it as a marathon, not a sprint, and 90% is good enough for me.

I don't _personally_ believe that allowing my child to win/set his own priorities/experience gratification before the task *from time to time* is ruining him as a human being. Maybe it's being Canadian or being in media or being a woman or something but I guess I have seen equal, if not more, unhappiness in people who continue to meet external obligations until they are miserable, burnt out, and a real problem for those around them than those who occasionally say "no, I'm sorry, I'm too busy." Or "I need to take a vacation day tomorrow to re-focus."

Secondly, I actually find that my child, and a lot of children I know, really are motivated more to please than to disobey overall (3.5 is not the time to decide that







). I find that most of the time, if I say "hey, let's tidy up before we go to the park" that it happens. That is *also* a parenting moment - as much the one where he doesn't do it. I think we do our kids a disservice if we focus on the negative. For me, making an issue of the 1/10 times he doesn't do it is putting too much energy into the negative.

Thirdly, I think that time takes care of a lot of things. Right now my son's thinking and emotions are at a particular stage of development. If he were 8 and exhibiting the same behaviour, we could have a problem on our hands! But we would also have ten years to correct it. I refuse to live in fear of something that hasn't happened yet.

And finally, I do think that the biggest job of a parent fundamentally is to create a strong relationship of love and care with a child - that eventually becomes mutual love and care. I do see my role as creating routine and structure and leading my child to have respect and care. But *for me* at the end of the day if I must err between being too strict and too tolerant, I'm going to err on the side of the tolerant.

I personally believe it is *easier for people to learn later in life to buck up and work hard (if they didn't learn it with me) than it is for them to learn that their needs are important and they are deserving of love*. I think all of society is better at teaching that than teaching respect and love for the individual. I see that as my critical role as a parent.











yes! yes! yes! to all of this- every single word
you put it out there without all my wordy emotions!!
can you come follow me around in real life and help me explain things without getting so danged "passionate".


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *jackson'smama*


Quote:



i'm totally on board with Seawind's mood of "confused". if i weren't so tired, i'd change my mood smilie.

Anyways....i'm still lost. I read a post from Nof60, Shami, and Seawind and start shaking my head yes. Then, I read sticky's and do the same. From a "manipulator" standpoint, I feel the need to not just be the tallest person in my house.


just so you know- i have never felt attacked in any of your posts. you asked questions and i asked questions and we had a dialogue going. when a person is accused of being 'incapable of comprehending reality' we have crossed a line of agreeing to disagree and moved into being just plain disagreeable. 
i appreciate that your point of view is maybe not one i agree with 100% but i respect your feelings and you have articulated your intent so i understand your motivations. some of which i DO agree with. i, too, want a considerate child and hope to raise someone who is more than a mess- making lump.

Quote:



I am the parent and I respectfully set the flow of the day. Just as the PP hinted at, if my ds set the flow, who knows what would happen - we'd never eat at the dinner table, we'd be in underware all day even if our feet were ice cold, we'd eat nothing but popcorn and yogurt, and the house would be an absolute wreck. I just don't think a 3 yo naturally has it in them at that age to logically look at the day and decide what should be done and how it should be done.


i see absolutely nothing wrong with "setting the flow". i have no problem with that whatsoever. you have the skills to do that and you are sharing that skill with your child

Quote:



I don't believe there are 100 ways to bake a cake. I am all about individuality, but there comes a time where not every.single.thing can be in the gray. there is black and white out there even if there are people who refuse to acknowledge it.


but there are over a 100 ways to bake a cake! doesn't mean i like all of them but they do exist. you not believing that denies a black and white fact. there is also a lot of gray area in life. i like almonds but i hate almond cakes. cakes with almonds on top maybe....









Quote:



I guess i see myself not as the person who is controlling every thing my son does but rather setting example, giving choice when i can, letting the little things go, encouraging communication, etc...i don't say things like "if you're quiet in the restaurant, we'll go across the street to toys r us afterward for a new toy." i DO say, "you remember what 'good restaurant behavior is', right?" he usually nods yes and tells me the specifics. i then say, "if we don't have good restaurant behavior, we'll leave the restaurant and eat in the car." 
Now, BOTH of those involve manipulation. I am bribing/threatening/coercing in both. In the first, it's a bribe or coercion with a new toy for good behavior. Makes no sense to me and sets the child up for expecting some type of reward for doing what, IMO, is just the right thing to do. In the second case, it's a bribe/threat/coercion with the thought of leaving the "fun place" if we are not acting appropriately. I feel OK with this one however because it seems logical. But either way you look at it, i'm manipulating. I feel quite certain that if i were to go to a restaurant with my adult girlfriends and proceeded to bubble my beverage, stand in the seat, crawl under the table, eat like a wild animal, touch food at the buffet - whatever...that they might not SAY something manipulative to me b/c they might feel out of line, embarassed, whatever - but i bet they wouldn't invite me back to lunch at a restaurant with them. so tell me (sticky?) how the way i handle "restaurant behavior" by manipulating is wrong and what i should do to be more respectful, open, encouraging of self-discipline, etc...



i don't think setting expectations for behavior at a restaurant is manipulation. i think if you have practiced and discussed how to act in a restaurant before you get there and your child is capable of doing it then you proceed to the restaurant. if the kid is throwing food and being obnoxious, you leave. to me that is not a punishment that is a consequence of not being mature enough to handle restaurant dining. with the privilege of dining in a restaurant (a grown up place that is not a necessity) comes the _responsibility_ of certain behavior.

Quote:



In all this babbling, i guess i'm saying is there are some basic "rules of life" we need to teach our children. And yes, i believe that when i say rules of life that they are rules of LIFE - everyone's. NO ONE wants to eat in a restaurant with the child i described above and it isn't fair to expect people to - especially if they don't know and love you.



you know how in basic child development you hear "don't just say what _not to_ do but also say what _to_ do"? like instead of "don't hit the baby!" you say "soft hands" or "touch gently" and you show the child. well, i think it's the same thing. you teach your child what behavior is acceptable. you're not framing requests and "duties" in the negative with statements like "you CAN'T go to the park, if you DON'T pick up your toys". why not just say "let's clean up and get going to the park" -which assumes the best possible outcome and leaves room for negotiation if that 1% of the time the kid doesn't want to tidy up first. with the restaurant scenario i would do what you said you would do talk with the child go over what is acceptable not 'don't throw food, don't blow bubbles or we're leaving'.

Quote:



NO ONE wants to clean up after messy husbands and wives and coworkers the rest of their lives. So, in the reference to sticky's messy sister - apparently, it was not instilled that there are things you just DO - even if you don't want to - for the benefit of others (if she had a roommate, for example). So, if the parent's manipulated with the if not x then not y stuff and she still turned out this way, then we have to acknowledge personality as a block (as i brought up many pages ago)


as far as my sister not having instilled in her the values that you, jacksonsmama, find important... our house rules growing up were the same for all of us. a lot of it was "you must do x before you do y".

my sister just happens to be scattered. i happen to like order. our other sister is a total neat freak. we all created relationships with others who are fine they way we are and neither of us would be happy in relationships that were any other way. temperament played a bigger role than our parents' discipline method.

Quote:



all along....there are going to be people who were "manipulated" who by their personality are STILL not going to follow thru. i agree with sticky in that we have to find ways to come together with love and respect and do things not out of fear but out of that love and respect. and that for different children, you'll tweak it differently. but i don't believe that we should just "accept" that "some people are just that way"...i don't think it serves our children well to just let it go with that writeoff. you can be an individual and still be considerate of others. it shouldn't matter your hairstyle, but being an inconsiderate partner, driver, coworker, etc...IS unacceptable and just plain not social. my one big problem with ALL of this is still the issue of "you don't have to do it unless you really want to/find joy in it" clause.


i have no choice but to be "accepting" of my sister's messiness. maybe i don't spend much time at the her house because i find it too chaotic. but i still _accept_ that that is who she is. she has created her own consequences. she has a messy house, a husband and a daughter who don't mind and a cool older sister who can't spend more than 30 minutes there.









Quote:



so tell me how you get from "it's always ok to say no" to the child who is ever-considerate and mindful of others rather than a self-centered person who always puts themselves first. If they can say, "no, i don't want to right now" and that's ok when they're 3, why will they suddenly NOT be doing that when they're teens or 8 or whatever? at what age are we magically expecting them to be on board with us in this? i don't understand the whole concept of "but not unless you find it joyful" b/c to me, it's not guaranteeing any brighter of a future than the other method. either one could "backfire", right?
please, sticky, explain how it would not backfire. i'm not attacking you! i really want to hear how allowing the child "free reign" in all decision making sets them up to be considerate decision makers as older children and beyond.




i really, really liked this from GuildJenn:

"_I personally believe it is easier for people to learn later in life to buck up and work hard (if they didn't learn it with me) than it is for them to learn that their needs are important and they are deserving of love. I think all of society is better at teaching that than teaching respect and love for the individual. I see that as my critical role as a parent_."

with my sisters and i as the example i think it just proves that no matter what your parents try to "instill" in you as far as duty you are going to end up in situations that are suited to your temperament. or _not_.

consequences whether good or bad (an happy marriage or a job that is a bad fit) have come about based on my choices. my parents couldn't have "consequented" me into my mutually beneficial relationship or my job that is a good fit for my employer AND me. i've sought out relationships that maximized my values and i move away from those that don't honor those values. which is in my opinion another way of saying "seeking joy". but it took me a long time to get to this place because i had to wade through all that other "duty" and "obligation" stuff to figure out what my values really are.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I personally believe it is *easier for people to learn later in life to buck up and work hard (if they didn't learn it with me) than it is for them to learn that their needs are important and they are deserving of love*. I think all of society is better at teaching that than teaching respect and love for the individual. I see that as my critical role as a parent.

The way I have seen it done, I would say the two aren't mutually exclusive. There seems to be a disconnect when people talk about it in terms of either one or the other. I believe it to be a process of balance and adjusting responses to maintain that equilibrium.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
The way I have seen it done, I would say the two aren't mutually exclusive. There seems to be a disconnect when people talk about it in terms of either one or the other. I believe it to be a process of balance and adjusting responses to maintain that equilibrium.

I agree, but I was talking about if we are (as this discussion seems to be) kind of erring on one side or the other of that line, that's my side.

I definitely don't think things are mutually exclusive most of the time... that's kind of my point about the moment at which I decide whether cleaning up is an absolute prerequisite to going out or not. I suspect we're all closer together than this discussion suggests.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I suspect we're all closer together than this discussion suggests.









Yes, it's quite possible!


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Yes, it's quite possible!









I think so, too.
I've gone back to read some of the threads and several times we have agreed on things, but it wasn't apparent.

DD is only one, so everything I say is still theory to me. I don't plan to go around all day saying do x before y, not that anyone implied that--just making an extreme example because I think we are somewhat jumping on each other assuming that we are all in the opposite corners of extremes.

I suspect we are all sort of in the middle somewhere.
For example, like stickey, I don't plan to use a lot of rewards like a toy for you if you behave in the restaurant. My thought is that if my dd can't behave in the rest. then we leave--not as a punishment, but as a consequence. Just like if I don't feel like being quiet, I won't go to an art museum--I'll go to the zoo instead.
Also, I think we all got mixed up in age appropriate stuff. We were all using different examples with different ages and I couldn't process it very well.

In my op I was talking about how I was raised. I remember being about 8 or 9 and getting up every Saturday morning and doing my chores as fast as I could so that I could go outside. Saturday was chore day for the whole family. I also got an allowance for it. Mom taught us to make our bed and do our dishes and I don't remember it being a struggle (from a kid's point







don't know about my mom--I'll have to ask her). It was just what we did. We could watch a few cartoons after school, but then it was homework time. After homework we could watch tv again or play Atari (can you tell how old I am?).
When I was a toddler, mom said the first time I had a meltdown in the grocery she just left...basket and everything and took me home. She had to do that two times and then I never did that again.
Mom never yelled, but she did a whole lot of reminding...'that doesn't belong there, it goes in your room'.
Now I am an adult and being neat is not easy for me, I really struggle with it. I can't imagine how I would be if mom didn't work with me. My mom is my hero and I hope to be as gentle and loving as she was and is.

I just can't bring myself to view her as manipulating me into doing chores. I guess in the LITERAL sense of the word one could say that it is manipulation. But the way it came across to me as a kid was, gotta do this first and then I can have fun and mom was a gentle leader reminding and encouraging us to take care of our responsibilities in a timely fashion.

I hope North of 60 is still here! If not I thought that was a cute way to exit! Maybe she's still at the park?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
When I was a toddler, mom said the first time I had a meltdown in the grocery she just left...basket and everything and took me home. She had to do that two times and then I never did that again.
Mom never yelled, but she did a whole lot of reminding...'that doesn't belong there, it goes in your room'.
Now I am an adult and being neat is not easy for me, I really struggle with it. I can't imagine how I would be if mom didn't work with me. My mom is my hero and I hope to be as gentle and loving as she was and is.

I just can't bring myself to view her as manipulating me into doing chores. I guess in the LITERAL sense of the word one could say that it is manipulation. But the way it came across to me as a kid was, gotta do this first and then I can have fun and mom was a gentle leader reminding and encouraging us to take care of our responsibilities in a timely fashion.

I hope North of 60 is still here! If not I thought that was a cute way to exit! Maybe she's still at the park?
















I hope this doesn't come across as smarmy (and I wish I'd had your mom!) but I do think we have to be careful about trying to judge our parenting in the present by the past.

Memory edits a lot. My mum told me when my son was about 10 months old that she used CIO and it was great. So at about 18 months we were staying over and I laid down with my son and he fell asleep really quickly, and she was amazed. So I asked a bit more and she shared that she did CIO... once a month for two years. HmmmMMMmmm.







Of course on some kids I am sure it did work. Just not me. But this did not come out of my mother the first time.

It is entirely possible that leaving the store twice worked for you and might work for your child, it doesn't mean that is a universal standard that is always going to work. Leaving once did work on my son - at 3. No problems since. But at 18 months when the argument was about Getting To Walk, leaving did not work. But given that I barely remember that now I wonder if in 20 years I'll remember that brief crazy walking stage.

With grocery shopping too I could name 5 things off the top of my head that are different now: different lighting, more garish packaging, product placement specifically designed to throw kids into conflict with their parents (i.e. the sugared cereals at 4 year old eye level), more electronic noises, and child-sized shopping carts.









That doesn't mean we can't leave if there's a meltdown or address issues so that there aren't meltdowns... it just means that it may not be working the same way.

Anyways sorry to derail the thread a bit; I just hate hate hate the nostalgia/reality clash that I run into myself.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I hope this doesn't come across as smarmy (and I wish I'd had your mom!) but I do think we have to be careful about trying to judge our parenting in the present by the past.

Memory edits a lot. That doesn't mean we can't leave if there's a meltdown or address issues so that there aren't meltdowns... it just means that it may not be working the same way.

Anyways sorry to derail the thread a bit; I just hate hate hate the nostalgia/reality clash that I run into myself.

GuildJenn, I was a little surprised by your post. I guess I am not sure where your coming from.

I think we can learn a lot from the past and not make the same mistakes our parents made. OR, we can follow our parents' pattern if it's a good one. Maybe my post sounded a little dreamy (today's been an emotional day for me) to you, but I am pretty sure that it really happened that way.

I do agree with you that parenting is different today. We have a very different atmosphere to deal with than our parents. I also agree that the same parenting technique doesn't work with every kid, but I will def. give my mom's techniques a shot.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Well I haven't read all the posts yet (just the beginning and end LOL) but I did want to throw one thing out if it hasn't already been mentioned that has helped me with this kind of issue....

I've been reading online about "principles versus rules" in parenting and it has definitely been a light bulb and I think might be helpful in talking about manipulation. Here's a nice link with lots of background links worth reading:
http://www.naturalattachment.com/wor...renting-logic/

The basic idea is that you can analyze your interactions with your kids from the perspective of Rules or of Principles. So an example would be:

Principle: Long-term health (or We take care of our bodies)
Rule: You must eat a healthy dinner before having dessert.

If you are focusing on the principle, it just seems like you might have alot more creative solutions to the "problem" you are having. And really, it's the principles that you want your kids to inherit, not necessarily the rules.

I love this Ben Lovejoy quote:

Quote:

Principles sustain a life; rules will constrain that very same life.
http://sandradodd.com/benrules

Anyway, I think that the manipulation stuff is related because I often find myself manipulating my kids to get them to obey a "rule" (however well-intentioned). But I think it might be easier to find a solution if I focused on the principle I was trying to teach/instill.

FWIW, this is all new reading to me and I haven't put it into action yet so I have no idea if I can be successful at this - but it is kind of a watershed idea for me and I thought others might be interested in it with regards to manipulation/consensual living....
peace,
robyn


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

sounds awesome, hippymomma69... thanks for sharing!


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

aaaaahaaaaa - rules vs. principles - i like that!

sticky: just wanted to clarify what i said about your sister. i think i may have fumbled my words b/c i *meant* what you *said*! my thoughts were that since you said your parents "manipulated" that it obviously didn't fully "work" for her, for lack of a better word. while she may have been more "compliant" while under your parents' roof, her personality has dominated over the discipline she was raised by.


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## stickywicket67 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
aaaaahaaaaa - rules vs. principles - i like that!

sticky: just wanted to clarify what i said about your sister. i think i may have fumbled my words b/c i *meant* what you *said*! my thoughts were that since you said your parents "manipulated" that it obviously didn't fully "work" for her, for lack of a better word. while she may have been more "compliant" while under your parents' roof, her personality has dominated over the discipline she was raised by.

yes. i got that.







i didn't take it offensively at all! i hope didn't offend with my answer,

in my response i wanted to point out two aspects to that thought about my sister which were

-personality and temperament play a big role in who we grow up to be

(ftr- she wasn't all that 'compliant' about cleaning up after herself when she was a kid either







)

-no matter what our parents try to *instill* in us we will ultimately manifest the "consequences" for ourselves

i was using her as an an example to illustrate the quote i included from GuildJenn.

my mom has said many times how different we all are and marvels at how she could have raised 4 kids (i have a brother, too) who are so unalike.


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