# Juice Plus?



## Annikate

I'm a little embarrassed to even be asking but . . . is this for real?

I've met like 3 people IRL who take it and love it (and aren't distributors) and then I read something on a reputable yahoo group yesterday about it and how great it is.

My diet is excellent but I guess we could always use more fruits and vegetables (?)

Does anyone take it? What do you think?


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## LF2000

try a google search ...the info I found makes it seem pretty sketchy.


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## 3timesamama

I started taking Juice Plus after reading about it on Dr. Sears site and seriously my family went from always being sick to almost never getting sick. We've been on it for a year and a half now.
I have looked into other things, but the ones I found were all about the same price as juice plus, but without all the research behind them.
Anyways, I really like it and if I couldn't afford to be on it, then I'd still definitely give it just to my kids.


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## Annikate

Quote:

Originally Posted by *LF2000*
try a google search ...the info I found makes it seem pretty sketchy.
Yeah, did that and thought the same thing until I started hearing from people about its wonders. Just the way it is marketed makes me suspicious.

3timesamama, just curious . . . did you have a healthy diet before taking it?


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## 3timesamama

Well, my diet is pretty much the same as before I started juice plus. Sometimes I eat really healthy and sometimes I fall off the wagon. But I really don't get enough fruits and veggies, and my kids don't get as much as they should either.
So since the only thing that's changed really in our diet is juice plus, I'm really sure it's why we're all so much healthier.


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## FLDoula

We have had good results with Juice Plus too! We had a relatively healthy diet but both of my kids were getting sick all of the time once I had my second. We added Juice Plus to the diet and we have been much healthier. We have been on it for two years, and the last two times we got on a plane for a vacation we did not come home sick like we usually do. I was completely amazed!

Remember that there are always going to be "naysayers" on the internet. How do you know that what you read is actually true? Look at the research and look at the docs that are recommending Juice Plus (Dr. Sears and his sons for example) and decide whom you want to listen to. There are a ton of false statements and lies out there about Juice Plus. There is also the truth. These docs that recommend Juice Plus are reputable and they would not put their reputation on the line to recommend something that was not what it is made out to be. Think about it..............

Go to the main juice plus website:

www.juiceplus.com

There are video clips on there from docs, etc. Very interesting. Also includes why the CACE (Center for Advancement in Cancer Education) recommends it (only one of two products they have ever endorsed).


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## whateverdidiwants

My PCP tried to push Juice Plus on me and after I did research I decided that it was a waste of money for me. I eat a healthy vegan diet and have perfect bloodwork, and there is nothing in the capsules that isn't already in my diet. Also, they aren't vegan - they use beef gelatin for their capsules.


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## FLDoula

Just as a point of reference, the capsules used are kosher beef capsules. The company has tried to use vegetarian capsules but their studies show that the vegetarian capsules (so far at least) do not keep the product "safe" so to speak. The nutrients are destroyed with those capsules. With the beef gelatin capsules the product is kept without loss of nutrients. They are working on finding a vegetarian capsule but nothing has met their standards.

The chewables are vegan, BTW. And people who are vegan that take the product usually will open the capsule and throw the contents into a smoothie, juice, or just into their mouth and swallow with water.

And as far as the certification of the beef capsules, the kosher certification is the highest certification possible. Even those who follow the strictest of standards with a kosher diet, etc., can and do take this product.


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## RaRa7

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate*
Yeah, did that and thought the same thing until I started hearing from people about its wonders. Just the way it is marketed makes me suspicious.

3timesamama, just curious . . . did you have a healthy diet before taking it?

How do they market?
I had never even heard of them until my chiro. suggested them last week and I just ordered some for ds........


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## FLDoula

It is marketed through independent distributors. THere is no advertising by the company on TV or radio or anything. Just word of mouth, one on one with people, and chiropractors and doctors across the country recommending it.


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## tamagotchi

also known as multilevel marketing...


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## caedmyn

As expensive as they are, I can buy a lot of fruits & veggies for that price, and the fruits & veggies are going to be healthier. If I wasn't eating a lot of veggies, or had a child who wouldn't eat them, I might consider them, but otherwise, they're just too expensive.

FLDoula--aren't you a juice plus distributor? I seem to recall from other juice plus threads that you are.


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## Annikate

Quote:

Originally Posted by *tamagotchi*
also known as multilevel marketing...
That's what I thought.


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## kdmama33

AKA direct marketing, which is not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of very reputable direct marketing companies. Longaberger, Discovery Toys, Usbourne Books, Natural Family Boutique all come to mind immediately, for example.

I'm not advocating JP AT ALL, btw. It just gets up my nose a bit to hear (see) the words "multilievel marketing" said with such disdain. Not all direct marketing is bad, shady, or otherwise a scam.


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## Annikate

What do you sell?


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## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kdmama33*
AKA direct marketing, which is not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of very reputable direct marketing companies. Longaberger, Discovery Toys, Usbourne Books, Natural Family Boutique all come to mind immediately, for example.

I'm not advocating JP AT ALL, btw. It just gets up my nose a bit to hear (see) the words "multilievel marketing" said with such disdain. Not all direct marketing is bad, shady, or otherwise a scam.

I agree! There are so many products out there that are direct marketing. I think the statistic is that 50% of people in the US are involved in it. Let's name a few more:

Avon, MaryKay, Arbonne, Princess House, Pampered Chef, Partylite, Wild Herbs, etc., etc., etc.

Multilevel marketing has a bad rep because of companies like AmWay. There are other companies that are good that are not like that at all. In fact, the true definition of MLM includes that the business is pushed on EVERYONE and you are paid for indefinte amounts of downline (usually). Not all companies that do direct marketing are like that. In fact Juice Plus customers are the bulk of the business - just customers, not distributors. The stats are 85% are just happy customers.

And, yes I am a distributor but I only became one to get a discounted price....nothing more.......I am not promoting my distributorship here at all......just answering the questions. If you'll notice, in my answer I sent the link to the main Juice Plus website......I do not profit from this.....just making sure that everyone has the answers to their questions.

And they really are not that expensive. They are a replacement for a vitamin. They are whole food supplements. They are not a replacement for fruits and veggies. If you are going to compare to fruits and veggies (which should not really be being done anyway), the cost is $1.33 per day.....how much fruits or veggies can you buy for that a day? One organic apple or two bananas? There are 17 fruits, veggies, and grains in Juice Plus that are guaranteeded to be herbicide, pesticide, and mold free.


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## kalisis

We signed up for them and I use them sometimes. The one thing I don't necessarily like is that if I give them early in the day, b/c they're sweet, DS seems to want more sweet stuff all day. I try to give them later in the day b/c of that.

I am happy with their quality and I've never been contacted by the rep again - the shipment just shows up.


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## kdmama33

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate*
What do you sell?









Nothing, actually. I was a Longaberger consultant many moons (and two less children) ago, and they are a fantastic company, owned by women, run by women, with a quality product and ethical business practices. (How's that for a plug?!?







) It just really bothers me to hear a company like Longaberger lumped in with every "MLM" scam company ... like, say, Herbalife or Amway.

So, this is waaaaaaaay off topic, but I wanted to say don't judge a company simply based on the fact that it is a direct marketing company. Even Juice Plus. I'm not particularly a fan, but my reasons are more varied than simply because "they're a multilevel marketing" company. KWIM?


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## sparkprincess

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kdmama33*
Nothing, actually. I was a Longaberger consultant many moons (and two less children) ago, and they are a fantastic company, owned by women, run by women, with a quality product and ethical business practices. (How's that for a plug?!?







) It just really bothers me to hear a company like Longaberger lumped in with every "MLM" scam company ... like, say, Herbalife or Amway.

So, this is waaaaaaaay off topic, but I wanted to say don't judge a company simply based on the fact that it is a direct marketing company. Even Juice Plus. I'm not particularly a fan, but my reasons are more varied than simply because "they're a multilevel marketing" company. KWIM?

Yes! There is a HUGE difference between a pyramid sceme and a direct marketing company! A pyramid scheme is where people at different levels purchase the product from their upline and they all get different %s off - so they are making more the higher they get. Also, usually, a portion of the money the lower people make is distributed between their uplines and sometimes the other people in their...group..or whatever. With direct marketing, every single consultant, no matter if they are brand new or at the top, all purchurse their products from the company (for the same price) and all money they make is their own. Other incentives and percents come from the company - not the people lower than them.

Anywhooo, all that to say: I don't know a thing about JP. I'm intrigued also.







:


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## courtenay_e

We use it, and love it. DC are healthier (and were eating a lot more fruits and veggies than I was) than ever before. Dd has asthma and it, along with Cod Liver Oil, seems to have made an absolute wonderous difference in her health. My kids don't get sick as often or stay sick as long as the other kids in the neighborhood.

The clincher for me when I was doing my own research was that St. Jude's research hospital gives it to their kids who're fighting cancer. On top of that are all the major medical schools who've done replicable research on JP with positive results. We'll spend the $100 or so a month for the four of us...we make it back EASILY in the lack of co-pays we'd otherwise be paying for doc visits for the kids.


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## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whateverdidiwants* 
Also, they aren't vegan - they use beef gelatin for their capsules.

FWIW, The capsules are NOW vegan! Info just released over the past couple of weeks and being shipped to the consumers this way since June '06!


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## Panserbjorne

Annikate-I have many links if you want them. I've posted them before. I was a distributer until I did a bunch of research and spent alot of time on the phone with the company when things started seeming off to me. I'll share with you if you are interested.

Most of their research has been completely debunked. The benefits people see are from the nutrients that are added back after processing. This has been proven (before I get flamed) IF you google you too can read about the wonders







:


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## Panserbjorne

http://www.pregnancy-info.net/QA/ans...g_Juice_Plus_/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice_Plus

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsJuicePlus.php

to get you started...


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## emdeecee_sierra

We take it because a relative buys it for us. I don't even want to know how much it costs!! I know I would feel so guilty. We do the gummies. I have not noticed a difference in our health. But they sure are yummy!!!


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## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
The benefits people see are from the nutrients that are added back after processing. This has been proven (before I get flamed) IF you google you too can read about the wonders







:

I understand that some people may not like the product, but it is a HUGE thing to state that the benefits people are receiving are from the nutrients added back after processing! This statement cannot be proven true as EVERYONE on Juice Plus has a different response and everyone is different. Yes there is research and I have read the other stuff that is out there about Juice Plus and why not to buy it. But there are also many places online that talk about how Juice Plus has helped them. What about the thousands of doctors, chiropractors, naturopaths, etc., that are recommending it? What about the institutions that are studying Juice Plus and putting their name behind it? If the product was ALL bad they would NOT do this.

I don't want to start a debate, but it is not fair to only say it is ALL bad when there are two sides to the story. Everyone has their own thoughts and their own ideas about things. And everyone has the right to look at everything out there and then make a decision for their own health.

As I said, I have read ALL of the negative responses, etc., to Juice Plus but I have also read all of the positive ones. To me, the positive ones are much more compelling and I am willing to have my family be on Juice Plus because of it. I have friends and family that are on Juice Plus that have had very hard to deal with medical conditions and they have been able to come off of some of their medications and had less symptoms after taking Juice Plus and they have tried MANY things.

Again, not wanting to start a debate HOWEVER I don't think it is fair to only post the negative websites, SO I will post the positive ones that I know of:

www.askdrsears.com (just search for Juice Plus when you get to his website)
http://www.smokeysantillo.com/index.html
http://www.fromheretolongevity.com
http://www.bbbautism.com/dan_juice_plus.htm
http://strc.cc/pages/eye.asp

There are more, but those will get you started. The University of Florida did a study recently and actually published the results in their newsletter with POSITIVE information in there!


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## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sierratahoe* 
We take it because a relative buys it for us. I don't even want to know how much it costs!! I know I would feel so guilty. We do the gummies. I have not noticed a difference in our health. But they sure are yummy!!!

Have your kids been healthier? Mine were once they started taking the gummies, and this year they have not been sick AT ALL, which is great compared to before. Plus, it is fruits and veggies with a few added ingredients that are from the fruits and veggies, so it is simple nutrition. Not everyone "feels" anything different, BUT then I have been asked "do you feel better when you eat a salad or an apple?" Did you feel better when you were taking your vitamin? But we do it anyway, right? Because we know we should. JP is not a miracle pill. It is a replacement for a multivitamin, and my children's health has improved immensely since we have been on it!


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## Panserbjorne

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA70273

Everything that I have read says that people have also changed diet and exercise-not JUST startred taking JP. I didn't say it was all bad-people are getting benefits from what was added back.

As I said, I WAS a distributer. After the research I did I felt it was unethical to continue selling it. I know practitioners who felt the same way so I am clearly not alone.


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## FLDoula

That is an interesting website, however, I don't think that people realize what the intent of Juice Plus is. Many people think it is fruits and veggies and a way not to eat fruits and veggies, but that is not what it is. It is a way to get nutrition from a whole food source rather than a chemically made vitamin. Nothing more.

And not everyone changes their diet when they take Juice Plus. I did not and neither did my children, yet we all have been MUCH healthier since starting to take it. I know of people who were juicing fruits and vegetables every day yet they had more results including no longer having anemia, etc., when they started taking Juice Plus. I know of children who have ADHD or other autistic type disorders that have more clarity and focus once they start taking Juice Plus. There are people with other diseases such as MS, fibromyalgia, etc., that are doing wonderful after trying everything else and Juice Plus was the answer. So, Juice Plus may not be for you personally and you can decide you don't want to sell it to people, but there are many people who do benefit from taking Juice Plus and for them I would hate to see them not be able to have it. Tell a mother who has seem clarity and focus in her son with Aspergers syndrome and him talking to her more than ever before, all because he started taking Juice Plus, nothing else, that the product is somehow not a good product! Or the mom who is now out of bed after having fibromyalgia for years.

Just my thoughts. I just think that everyone needs to decide for themselves and they need to see both sides of the story, not just the negative stuff on the internet. There are positive things too!


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## Mirzam

Here is another option: Vibe. Also, unfortunately an MLM product, but I think you can get it online. DH bought some from a friend to help her out and we used it for a month or so. I thought it was okay. But honestly, I didn't see any difference in my children's health, but they are healthy kids but not big veggie eaters by any means.

http://www.healthliesexposed.com/art..._25_4654.shtml


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## Panserbjorne

Right. To each his own.


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## granolamomma

Unfortunately, I have been bitten by a few 'wellness' MLM companies. (And I'm not totally biased towards a company just because it's an MLM.) IMO most of these products are at best something that probably won't hurt me. But I've found that the fervor that some people feel - not necessarily anyone in this thread - in defending their products makes me that much more cautious. The product should stand up for itself. If I feel like someone is trying too hard to reiterate the testimonial anecdotes it usually ends up being a case of 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'. My instincts when feeling that haven't failed me yet.

But I do know a few people who like JP fine.


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## Brenda Damachuk

There are far too many problems with JP to suggest that we are dealing with a mere difference of opinion or that these issues are being raised because some people simply "don't like" the product. The people involved with selling JP need to do some serious soul searching about the way the business is being run. The company is far too reluctant to share basic information about the product, and far too much responsibility is put on untrained distributors to disseminate information; and for the most part, they are not doing very well, since they all seem to offer vague and conflicting opinions. Unambiguous information about this product should be listed on the bottle label and on the company's website, but it is not. Many distributors claim that JP is most definitely not a vitamin/nutrient supplement while others claim that it is a vitamin/nutrient supplement but one that is derived from food sources. Few are willing to concede even the possibility that most if not all of the nutritional value of the product comes from nutrients that are artificially added post-processing, even though all evidence indicates this to be true.

Key questions to consider when evaluating the claims about JP are (a) how much fruit and vegetable juice powder does it contain and (b) how much produce went into making that juice powder? The yield of refined powder from fresh produce after removal of sugar, water, sodium, and fiber would be roughly 2%. The capsules contain only about 25% juice powder, so 4 capsules (3 g) would contain about 750 mg of powder, which corresponds to roughly one-third of a serving of fresh produce -- at most. Where is the value in a supplement that corresponds nutritionally to one-third or less of a serving? The JP production facility is not magically exempt from the laws of physics, and simple arithmetic cannot be reasonably dismissed as nay-saying. To make matters worse, the known nutrients in JP are added after the fruits and veg are processed, and there is no evidence that the juice powders themselves provide any nutritional value. The fact that JP contains added fortifying nutrients and very small amounts of juice powder is withheld from the public and not disclosed on the product's label or in promotional materials. JP should be promoted as nothing more than as a vitamin/nutrient supplement, but even at that, the amounts and variety of nutrients it does contain make it a poor choice as an all-purpose supplement.

Considering what JP provides (and does not provide), its high cost cannot be justified. Top-quality generic multivitamins cost 2 to 5 cents per day, and there is no evidence that Juice Plus is equal, let alone superior, to an inexpensive multivitamin. The expense of the product is often dismissed as trivial, but the truth is that the cost for a single user, $1.33 per day (almost $500 per year), is not insignificant for many Americans. Would you believe that this amounts to about 10% of the food budget for the median family and a much higher percentage for the many families who earn below the national median? And if more than one person in the family takes the product (add $1.33 per day each), or they take additional JP products like Gummies or Vineyard Blend, then the dollar cost and food budget drain would be much higher -- far too high to justify from a cost/benefit perspective.

If one makes the unfortunate decision to become a distributor, then hefty expenses will also be incurred for the recommended startup package of promo materials ($190+), the $60 signup fee, the $360 donation for the bogus Children's Research Foundation (required if they wish to signup participants), various training seminars (fees vary from $10-$25), bootcamps ($150+), high fees for a distributor website and voice messaging, and extra expenditures for stationery, t-shirts, hats, lapel pins, tote bags, bumper stickers, etc. That's a lot of money (not to mention time and energy) to spend for the "privilege" of selling a product with no apparent value.

There are also many disturbing ethical and legal issues concerning JP promotion and marketing, such as dangerous recommendations for cancer patients, promotions aimed at kids and pregnant women, and the hidden financial interests of the researchers and spokespeople for the product, to name but a few. Another red flag issue is the key role played by John Wise, an executive of National Alternatives International (the company that manufactures JP) and an author on 5 of the JP research papers. He was previously a senior VP with another infamous supplement company, United Sciences of America, which imploded after being exposed by the FDA and indicted in 4 states for false claims, rigged research, and pyramid scheming. That company's promotional and marketing tactics are reminiscent in many ways of those now being used to sell JP.

It is also alarming that NSA and JP distributors often imply or explicitly state that JP can prevent, treat, or cure diseases and disease symptoms. Such statements are prohibited by the Dietary Supplement Health & Education Act and the US Code of Federal Regulations, which govern how this product can be legally marketed and promoted. Distributors are bound by those laws just as much as the companies that make and market JP.

All of the evidence of the product's shortcomings cannot be simply dismissed as nay-saying. Sources that have commented publicly are varied and include the University of California Berkeley, Memorial Sloan Kettering Clinic, MLMWatch, and assorted scientists and nutritionists around the world, none of whom have any apparent financial motive behind their comments. In an attempt to counterbalance such criticism, 5 links were provided by FLD. None of these sites presented compelling arguments and all were selling Juice Plus. It is revealing that not a single persuasive, unbiased source could be cited to support the product.

For Further Reading:
http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/NSA/juiceplus.html
http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/NSA/crf.html
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/1157...dID=637&tab=HC
http://www.environmentalnutrition.co.../150372-1.html
http://www.thedietchannel.com/Dietar...Juice-Plus.htm
http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/2000/4_nutrition.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/3725
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsJuicePlus.php
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/subC.../2000/0011.pdf
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/p...-106/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice_Plus
http://www.gnld.com.au/downloads/gar...carotenoid.pdf
http://juiceplusresearch.blogspot.com
http://www.pregnancy-info.net/QA/ans...ng_Juice_Plus_


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## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
If one makes the unfortunate decision to become a distributor, then hefty expenses will also be incurred for the recommended startup package of promo materials ($190+), the $60 signup fee, the $360 donation for the bogus Children's Research Foundation (required if they wish to signup participants), various training seminars (fees vary from $10-$25), bootcamps ($150+), high fees for a distributor website and voice messaging, and extra expenditures for stationery, t-shirts, hats, lapel pins, tote bags, bumper stickers, etc. That's a lot of money (not to mention time and energy) to spend for the "privilege" of selling a product with no apparent value.


That was an interesting post, however some of these above statements are incorrect. (And I believe that all of the post by Brenda is incorrect, however, I wanted to address that the part about the distributor is 100% incorrect and therefore I feel that should make people wonder about the rest of the post.)

None of the above is required EXCEPT for the $50 sign up fee. Nothing more. You do not have to do any of the following. And the donation to the Children's Research Foundation is $30, NOT $360. (I know none of the rest of the above is required in that there are communities of people who do not use electricity, etc., that are reps with Juice Plus, so this should answer the above.)

There is a ton of info on the internet that says different stuff about different products, vaccinations, etc., both good and bad. As I have said before, it is up to everyone to make their own choices.

As regards to internet info, take vaccinations for instance. Many of us on this board are against vaccinations, however, if you search online you will find out tons of people think we are crazy and you will find information that supports vaccinations just as much, if nor more so, than supports non-vax. That is just the way of the world. It is hard to make choices for our families, however, we all need to do that.

I don't want to get into a heated discussion about Juice Plus, so I really think we should stop here. Take a look at the Juice Plus website. Look at the organizations that are doing studies on it and putting their name on the research and think about the docs, etc., that recommend it because of what they see and then make your choice. Look at the links above, and do everything with an open mind. Then make your decision. I did my research and decided it was what I wanted for my family based on EVERYTHING I read and the questions I asked, etc., and made my choice. It is up to you. Juice Plus has been proven to be bioavailable and multivitamins have not. This was the first thing that sold me on Juice Plus. I did my research from there.

www.juiceplus.com

I hope everyone finds peace.

*Brenda*: I do find it interesting that Juice Plus posts are the ONLY posts you have ever posted here on mothering.com. Makes me wonder what you are doing here???????????????????????


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## FLDoula

New study released at University of Florida was summarized and used by this neurologist in his recommendations:

http://www.vitacost.com/newsletter/n...ter.cfm?nl=298

"There was another excellent study just published in the October 2006 Journal of Nutrition2. In this study out of the University of Florida, 59 healthy law students were given either an encapsulated fruit and vegetable juice powder concentrate or placebo for 11 weeks. At the start, midpoint and end of the study, blood was drawn to measure antioxidant status, DNA damage and other parameters of immune function. By the end of the study, there was a 30% increase in circulating T lymphocytes (which are good), and a 40% reduction in DNA damage in white cells in those given fruit and vegetable powder concentrate compared to the placebo group. Overall, it was found that those who consumed the supplement had increased levels of plasma nutrients with improvement in antioxidant capacity and reduction in DNA damage with increase in circulating T cells."


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## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
That was an interesting post, however some of these above statements are incorrect. (And I believe that all of the post by Brenda is incorrect, however, I wanted to address that the part about the distributor is 100% incorrect and therefore I feel that should make people wonder about the rest of the post.)

100% incorrect huh? OK, do tell&#8230;

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
None of the above is required EXCEPT for the $50 sign up fee. Nothing more.

I never said "required" (although all of the expenses I mentioned are highly encouraged by JP reps); I very unambiguously used terms like "recommended startup package" and "required if they wish to signup participants". Please don't put words in my mouth.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
And the donation to the Children's Research Foundation is $30, NOT $360.

Really! Then why does page 12.1 of the Juice Plus Virtual Franchise Owners Manual clearly state that the contribution to the JPCRF is $360 deducted from your paycheck at $30/month for 12 months. Still waiting for you to point out something in my post that was incorrect&#8230;

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
(I know none of the rest of the above is required in that there are communities of people who do not use electricity, etc., that are reps with Juice Plus, so this should answer the above.)

HUH????????

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
There is a ton of info on the internet that says different stuff about different products, vaccinations, etc., both good and bad. As I have said before, it is up to everyone to make their own choices.

Yes, agreed there is lots of stuff about things and stuff on the internet etc.

But that aside, shouldn't we be recommending that people read and give more credence to unbiased commentary from reputable organizations, scientists and nutritionists than to the promotional websites of people trying to sell the product?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
As regards to internet info, take vaccinations for instance.

Ah, no let's not! Vaccination has nothing to do with a discussion of JP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
Look at the organizations that are doing studies on it and putting their name on the research...

Wait a second&#8230;No organizations are studying it or putting their names on it. Paid researchers who happened to have addresses at universities are putting their names on it. That in no way implies any kind of direct involvement or official blessing by the universities where such work is conducted. Researchers are only too happy to study JP when NSA hands them checks for hundreds of thousands of dollars, as is the case with studies now in progress.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
...and think about the docs, etc., that recommend it because of what they see and then make your choice.

The docs you referred us to earlier, like Bill Sears and Mitra Ray, see regular fat paychecks from NSA, and they recommend JP simply because it is profitable for them to do so. How does that help anyone make an informed choice?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
*Brenda*: I do find it interesting that Juice Plus posts are the ONLY posts you have ever posted here on mothering.com. Makes me wonder what you are doing here??????????????????????? Sounds kind of like trawling/trolling to me.........

Hey pot&#8230;meet kettle. I find it interesting that you would make an accusation like that when you have posted about JP far more than I have.

FLD had also stated (but later deleted "Juice Plus has been proven to be bioavailable and multivitamins have not." But FLD was wrong yet again on that point. It has never been proven that the nutrients in/added to JP are any more bioavailable than those in any decent multivitamin. It could have easily been tested in any of the studies that NSA financed over the past decade but they chose not to. Wonder why?

In fact, any time they studied blood levels of common phytonutrients like cryptoxanthin, they found that there was NO absorption. Explain that one&#8230;

It is really amazing that FLD would attempt to say that everything I wrote was 100% incorrect and then not be able to show a single instance. FLD also conveniently bypases the most important points and offers no rebuttal whatsoever; namely:

1. Many if not all of the nutrients in JP are added artificially after the fruit and vegetable powders are processed.

2. JP contains very small amounts of fruit and vegetable powder derived from a very small amount of fresh produce...too small to offer any value.

3. Even with added vitamins, JP fails to deliver sufficient amounts of many essential nutrients including copper, iron, calcium, fiber, potassium. Why should a consumer spend $1.33 a day on JP when they would still need to take another supplement(s) to get the iron, calcium, fiber, B-vitamins and minerals they need?

4. NSA and JP distributors ignore both scientific fact and the regulations set by the US Congress when they recommend this product for the treatment or prevention of disease.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
New study released at University of Florida was summarized and used by this neurologist in his recommendations:
http://www.vitacost.com/newsletter/n...ter.cfm?nl=298

First of all, no recommendation of JP was given on the website mentioned. Second, this study you referred to by Nantz et al is a great example of how researchers will distort their reporting of data when NSA is paying them. Sue Percival, this study's leader, received roughly $100,000 from NSA. The study's statistical analysis of the data showed that JP HAD NO SIGNIFICANT EFFECT ON DNA OXIDATION. This is not my opinion, it is a FACT. It is clearly and inarguably shown by the ANOVA results in Table 3 which showed a non-significant p-value for the treatment effect. Despite that FACT, the authors still falsely reported that JP did have an effect on DNA oxidation. This is dishonest, bad science, and completely indefensible. Furthermore, 2 other well designed studies also showed that JP had no effect on DNA oxidation (studies by Kiefer and Bloomer).

Did anyone notice that the study also reported that JP did not increase the blood levels of zeaxanthin and cryptoxanthin? These phytonutrients are abundant in in fresh fruits and vegetables. If the plant powders in JP actually contained the nutritional essence of fruits and vegetables, as NSA claims, then JP should have increased blood levels of xeazanthin and crytpoxanthin, but it did not, showing once again that NSAs claims are baseless.


----------



## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
100% incorrect huh? OK, do tell&#8230;

I never said "required" (although all of the expenses I mentioned are highly encouraged by JP reps); I very unambiguously used terms like "recommended startup package" and "required if they wish to signup participants". Please don't put words in my mouth..

Well, not everyone encourages this of the reps on their team. And quite simply you can have a business with Juice Plus for $50 sign up fee and $40 every year after that. If you have a child that you sponsor, yes you will have a small cost incurred by that because you are helping to defray some of the cost of the child being on it for free.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Really! Then why does page 12.1 of the Juice Plus Virtual Franchise Owners Manual clearly state that the contribution to the JPCRF is $360 deducted from your paycheck at $30/month for 12 months. Still waiting for you to point out something in my post that was incorrect&#8230;..

$30 is a fee per customer per year, not $30 per month for 12 months, that is on the Children's Health Study. I personally don't have a problem with this. The parent is getting the product for free for their child and I as the rep from the company help defray the cost of the child's product. I don't know where you are reading what you are , but it is not in the manual that I have. Chapter 12 is on something entirely different.......

The community of people I am talking about are Amish. They do this business without any of the recommended computer stuff/voicemail, etc., so that was my point about it not being "needed" or "required."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Ah, no let's not! Vaccination has nothing to do with a discussion of JP.&#8230;..

This was an illustration about INFO on the internet that can be conflicting.....NOT a comparison of vaccinations and JP! Come on......read what was written.......

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Wait a second&#8230;No organizations are studying it or putting their names on it. Paid researchers who happened to have addresses at universities are putting their names on it. That in no way implies any kind of direct involvement or official blessing by the universities where such work is conducted. Researchers are only too happy to study JP when NSA hands them checks for hundreds of thousands of dollars, as is the case with studies now in progress..&#8230;..

MD Anderson Cancer Center/University of Texas is doing a study and has it on their website they are looking for participants. See the post I did above about the study at the University of Florida. There are others. And the study being done at Wakeforest University is being funded by the National Institutes of Health, not NSA.

If you read anywhere on the web about funding for any studies it comes from the company with the product. The pharmaceutical industry works this way. Look at the FAQ pages of places like MD Anderson, etc. They say that the money for the studies comes from the company that made the product. Then they do the study.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
The docs you referred us to earlier, like Bill Sears and Mitra Ray, see regular fat paychecks from NSA, and they recommend JP simply because it is profitable for them to do so. How does that help anyone make an informed choice? ..&#8230;..

There are MANY more docs than just these two that are recommending Juice Plus and many that are not distributors. They are not well-known names, they are just docs in towns across America and in Europe, etc., doing this. They recommend Juice Plus because it is something they have seen help their patients, etc.

As far as getting paid to do something, Juice Plus is a natural product and they recommend it. Yes some of them get paid to do it. That is their choice. But, think about it from this standpoint....what about the pharmaceutical reps going into the offices of docs and putting product samples in their office and the doc getting paid to prescribe their drug???? They get thousands of dollars from one company, so if you don't believe them with Juice Plus then you should not believe them with the drugs they prescribe either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Hey pot&#8230;meet kettle. I find it interesting that you would make an accusation like that when you have posted about JP far more than I have. ..&#8230;..

My point was that Juice Plus posts are the ONLY ones you have posted on. I have been on mothering.com for a LONG time.......I have used it through my pregnancies for advise, for info on my sons when they are sick, to make decisions about circ/vax/homeschooling. I am not here just posting when there is a Juice Plus question, which apparently you are since I don't see any other posts by you on the board.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
FLD had aslo stated (but later deleted "Juice Plus has been proven to be bioavailable and multivitamins have not." But FLD was wrong yet again on that point. It has never been proven that the nutrients in/added to JP are any more bioavailable than those in any decent multivitamin...&#8230;..

Read the newspapers and magazines on health and they are the ones saying that multivitamins are not absorbed by the system, and talk to a man who owns a porto-potty business and ask him how many vitamin pills he finds when he cleans them out. Juice Plus is being absorbed as antioxidant levels go up and are proven many times over by people taking the product and having it tested via blood draws and antioxidant screenings.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
It is really amazing that FLD would attempt to say that everyting I wrote was 100% incorrect and then not be able to show a single instance....&#8230;..

I said part of what you said was 100% incorrect.....ie the $60 fee versus the $50 fee, and the other things which I addressed earlier. I did not say your whole post was 100% incorrect.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
NSA and JP distributors ignore both scientific fact and the regulations set by the US Congress when they recommend this product for the treatment or prevention of disease.

NSA makes no claims about Juice Plus and the prevention and treatment of disease. If a rep is doing this, they are not following the guidelines set out by the government and the company.

The reason why I share Juice Plus with family and friends is because of what I have seen. I have read all of the info on the internet and spent many months reviewing it. AFter reading everything, I wanted it for my family, loved what it did for my family, and have subsequently shared it with other members of my family and friends. I took vitamins and supplements for many years (all natural from a reputable natural company) and did not see an improvement in my health, and I was desperate from being sick all of the time and having my boys be sick all the time. Since being on Juice Plus I have seen a dramatic improvement in my health and their's. It is that simple. I would rather know that I have a product that will digest in my system rather than going in one end and out the other. That is my choice for my family, and I am very satisfied with it after years of not being satisfied with the health of my family.

I also love the story of the making of Juice Plus. The man who started it took care of his father who had cancer and was sent home with 3 weeks to live. He is a naturopath and wanted to help his dad out "his way" and started giving him juice via n enema and rubbing his body down with oils for absorbtion. Then when his father was able to drink, he wanted to give it to him via his mouth but he could not tolerate the amount he needed so his son dehydrated it for his dad and spoon fed him fruits and veggies in a concentrated form. He used accupuncture and meridian testing to determine which fruits and veggies worked together for the optimal health. His father's health steadily improved, he went back to work and lived another 6 1/2 years. Then the naturopath started using it with his patients in his practice and they started getting healthier too. So he decided to try to find someone to help get it to more people, and went to many companies and finally found one that would give it a try and encapsulate it. And the rest is history....so to speak........Juice Plus has been being sold on the market for 13 1/2 years.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
$30 is a fee per customer per year, not $30 per month for 12 months, that is on the Children's Health Study.

The manual clearly states that distributors who want to use the Children's Research Foundation program must (1) "become a contributing Foundation member" and (2) "commit to a $360 contribution to the Foundation that is deducted from your payroll check in $30 increments one month at a time for 12 months." It couldn't be more explicit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
The community of people I am talking about are Amish. They do this business without any of the recommended computer stuff/voicemail, etc., so that was my point about it not being "needed" or "required."

Are there really enough Amish JP distributors to make that example representative of the average American JP distributor? Smells like a red herring to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
This was an illustration about INFO on the internet that can be conflicting.....NOT a comparison of vaccinations and JP! Come on......read what was written.......

Do we need an example to show that conflicting information about a variety of topics exists on the internet? Does the existence of uncertainty in the world have any bearing on the validity of JP? It's another red herring.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
MD Anderson Cancer Center/University of Texas is doing a study&#8230;

Untrue. MD Anderson/U Texas is NOT doing a study on JP, some researchers who are based there are doing a study. Research that takes place at a hospital or university is NOT endorsed or validated by the institution itself. And just because research is merely being conducted tells us nothing about the value of the product. Shouldn't we wait until the studies are finished and the results published before we trumpet the names of hospitals and pretend that it somehow validates JP? What if the MD Anderson study shows that JP is useless or even harms people? We won't know until it's completed and published will we? For all we know at this point, JP could cause cancer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
If you read anywhere on the web about funding for any studies it comes from the company with the product. The pharmaceutical industry works this way.

No, actually it doesn't. Pharma research is usually not financed ONLY by the manufacturing company. The company that manufactures/sells the product typically sponsors only some of the research, competing companies sponsor other studies in an attempt to dispute their competitor's claims, and some studies are conducted completely independently. Whether or not a drug study that shows positive results was funded by the manufacturer weighs heavily among scientists and doctors when they are evaluating claims about effectiveness. In cases where all of the research has been funded by the company that makes a product, the data is often regarded with extreme skepticism. There is no reason why JP research should be exempt from similar skepticism.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
There are MANY more docs than just these two that are recommending Juice Plus and many that are not distributors.

Really? Then why didn't you provide us evidence to back that up instead of posting links to Bill Sears' and Mitra Ray's websites? You chose your best examples and they were nothing more than self-serving shills who are making millions from JP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
Yes some of them get paid to do it. That is their choice. But, think about it from this standpoint....what about the pharmaceutical reps going into the offices of docs and putting product samples in their office and the doc getting paid to prescribe their drug???? They get thousands of dollars from one company&#8230;

You apparently don't know the true relationship between Pharma companies and physicians. Physicians are NOT paid to prescribe drugs, and it would be illegal to do so. If it were to happen, the FDAs DDMAC would punish them brutally. Pharma companies fear DDMAC and they take the regulations seriously, knowing that they would otherwise risk getting fined painfully or being shut down. DDMAC is not taken lightly. A Pharma company would also have hell to pay if they copied the NSA marketing tactic of using spokesdoctors with huge financial interests in the product.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
&#8230;so if you don't believe them with Juice Plus then you should not believe them with the drugs they prescribe either.

Yes, we are finally in agreement! When there is no independent research data we should not believe claims about JP or drugs. So we can therefore agree that the JP research is not believable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
Read the newspapers and magazines on health and they are the ones saying that multivitamins are not absorbed by the system, and talk to a man who owns a porto-potty business and ask him how many vitamin pills he finds when he cleans them out.

Ohhhh&#8230;so that's what you meant when you said "PROVEN"? Most people liken proof to&#8230;.oh let's say&#8230;maybe medical journal articles or unbiased expert commentary! Why claim that something is "PROVEN" when the proof consists of nothing more than some magazine articles and urban legends about outhouse cleaners? Better than telling us to do it, why don't YOU go ask some porta-potty cleaners about vitamins and then get back to us? In the meantime, there is no evidence whatsoever that JP is as good as any multivitamin.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
I did not say your whole post was 100% incorrect.

Why backpedal? That is in essence what you said&#8230; "_however some of these above statements are incorrect. And I believe that all of the post by Brenda is incorrect_". Did you in fact think some of it was correct? Which parts?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
NSA makes no claims about Juice Plus and the prevention and treatment of disease. If a rep is doing this, they are not following the guidelines set out by the government and the company.

You have restated precisely the criticism I had posed to you about the reps. It is one of the many reasons why this product's marketing has been criticized. Many reps ARE making such unfounded and prohibited claims and many reps ARE in fact violating the law. NSA itself paves the way for such abuses by deceptively basing much of their marketing on disease prevention. NSA even refers to JP as "America's Brand Name in Prevention".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
I also love the story of the making of Juice Plus. The man who started it took care of his father who had cancer and was sent home with 3 weeks to live&#8230;His father's health steadily improved, he went back to work and lived another 6 1/2 years&#8230;.And the rest is history....so to speak........Juice Plus has been being sold on the market for 13 1/2 years.

Are you not aware that this is considered an implied disease treatment claim and is legally prohibited? The law recognizes JP distributors as NSA representatives, and like NSA, they are legally obligated to not make claims, directly or implicitly, about prevention, treatment, cure, or mitigation of disease. Distributors should familiarize themselves with the relevant legal codes, as well as NSAs disclaimers and policies on acceptable marketing claims. Give a call to Elton Dobose, the head of internal affairs at NSA, and see if he approves of what you are posting.


----------



## FLDoula

Well, let's just agree to disagree and leave it up to everyone to decide as this is getting nowhere!


----------



## Panserbjorne

Annikate-did you get more than you bargained for?


----------



## chiro_kristin

Wow.

I used to be a JP distributor. I still think it is a decent product. I know people with good diets prior who had some great results. Self included. I never experienced any coercion to contribute more money as a distributor. I had my carotenoid levels checked prior and after being on the product for four months, and they significantly improved. Same with dh. We switched to a different product recently because we find it to be a superior product (wasn't at the time we started JP), and our carotenoid scores increased even more after we had plateaued on JP.

BTW, any website that has "watch" at the end of it probably isn't a reliable source of information. Stephen Barrett has lost too many court cases to have credibility.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
I never experienced any coercion to contribute more money as a distributor.

Just curious&#8230;did you get the impression that I was suggesting that coercion is typically used. The distributor expenses I mentioned were referred to as "highly encouraged", which is fair and accurate. NSA runs a huge collateral JP business selling promotional materials and training for distributors to grow their customer base and JP incomes. The expenditures I spoke of ARE highly encouraged as a means for growing business. It is obvious that many distributors do make such expenditures, since there are literally thousands of JP distributor websites that use the generic NSA template, which is provided when one pays the hefty additional monthly fees for such service. Almost every distributor I have encountered also strongly promotes the JP Children's Research Foundation to their prospective customers, and as I pointed out earlier, distributors are required to give a $360 "donation" to the Foundation in order to be allowed to enroll participants. Obviously NSA is taking in a lot of collateral revenue through these activities, and they are costing distributors a lot of money.

But none of this was pivotal to the point I was trying to make. I was emphasizing that JP offers a dreadful cost/benefit ratio and would take up an unjustifiable proportion of the average American family's food budget. Distributor expenses only aggravate the issue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
I had my carotenoid levels checked prior and after being on the product for four months, and they significantly improved...and our carotenoid scores increased even more after we had plateaued on JP.

A company called Pharmanex promotes an in-office skin carotenoid test, and some chiros perform it and charge their clients for the service, but free radical/antioxidant biochemists consider it to be fairly useless and unreliable (a very good critique on the Pharmanex test was published by Hammond et al. Journal of Investigative Dermatology. 2004;122:544-545). If this was the test you were referring to, then I wonder why you think it is important to have very high beta-carotene levels in the skin? Skin carotenoid levels are in no way indicative of overall antioxidant status or carotenoid levels in other parts of the body. Jacking up one's skin carotenoid levels is not considered to have any beneficial effects, with the _possible_ exception of skin cancer prevention, and even then, the levels don't need to be extraordinarily high. And as you are probably aware, there are several studies that have shown that taking supplemental beta-carotene can increase the risk for certain diseases, such as lung cancer.

In any case, it should come as no surprise that a product like JP, which has high doses of beta-carotene added to it, can result in elevated skin carotenoid levels. But an important fact to consider is that JP does not offer a range of different carotenoids, just beta-carotene. Two studies showed that taking JP did not result in increased blood levels of the carotenoids lycopene and lutein (Samman et al 2003; Smith et al 1999), which are important antioxidant components of fruits and vegetables. Lutein intake, for example, has been suggested to have a positive effect on age-related macular degeneration. A chemical analysis conducted by a competitor (GNLD International) also showed that JP contained no lycopene or lutein.

Lastly, the beta-carotene added to JP doesn't even come from those 15 fruits and vegetables the product is said to contain; it comes from the saltwater algae _Dunaliella salina_, which is not even in the human food chain. I find that to be extremely deceptive as well, but I guess "17 different fruits, veggies, grains, and algae" wouldn't read too well on the promo pamphlets, and a bowl of waterlogged slime wouldn't look too enticing sitting next to the cornucopia of fruits and veggies in the glossy photos.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
BTW, any website that has "watch" at the end of it probably isn't a reliable source of information. Stephen Barrett has lost too many court cases to have credibility.

Since your user name indicates that you are a chiropractor, I can fully understand why you might not like Barrett, who runs ChiroWatch and has been highly critical of the chiropractic profession. Nonetheless, we all know that ad hominem attacks are intellectually dishonest and they do nothing to negate Barrett's comments about JP. Neither does losing an unrelated court case have any bearing on Barrett's credibility in this context. Was there something in particular that Barrett said about JP that you disagree with or are you just dismissing him entirely because of his position on chiro or some other area unrelated to JP?

I don't care to comment on his general credibility but I did go through his JP articles carefully and found them to be insightful, original, and factually accurate, which is all I need to know. His comments on JP are certainly more credible and honest than those of any JP spokespersons I have encountered. If anything, Barrett could have gone even deeper in his expose, since there are many additional reasons to be critical of JP beyond those he mentioned.

I have witnessed on many occasions how JP distributors try to viciously smear this guy's reputation, and tactics like that immediately cause me to be suspicious of the attacker. I have never seen a single case where they attacked the issues rather than the person. If what he said about JP was actually wrong, then it would be much easier to convince people of that than to convince them that he is disreputable, which has been the preferred strategy.


----------



## granolamomma

FWIW and totally OT: I have surfed Quackwatch and the related sites many times for many different reasons (specifically in regards to the vaccine/autism link) and I have to say there is probably no other site that infuriates me more. I respect that some people have different philosophies on holistic living; but those sites are so offensively ridiculous my blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.

And I'm not infering this is what chiro_kristen is saying, but for me personally I have never found anything on Stephen Barrett's site that I agree with. Ever. So to use him as a reference automatically negates the objectivity of a particular argument, simply because I don't trust his bias.

Which really has nothing to do with Juice Plus. I just had to pipe up. Sorry!


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

No problem. Pipe away. I can understand why Barrett upsets some people, but when it comes to JP, he never said anything that was untrue. Just as a reminder, the criticism of JP does not emanate from Barrett alone; he is but one of many critics of this product. One must put personal feelings aside and look only at the substance of the arguments. We have to be willing to concede when someone makes a reasonable argument, even if that person is someone we don’t really like or generally agree with.


----------



## granolamomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
No problem. Pipe away. I can understand why Barrett upsets some people, but when it comes to JP, he never said anything that was untrue. Just as a reminder, the criticism of JP does not emanate from Barrett alone; he is but one of many critics of this product. One must put personal feelings aside and look only at the substance of the arguments. We have to be willing to concede when someone makes a reasonable argument, even if that person is someone we don't really like or generally agree with.

Oh, I totally agree. Although I have to say it really bugs me that I might (should I care to ever really research JP) ever agree with him







. And I've enjoyed the information you've given so far as someone who really is inpartial. I just couldn't not point out that on any given day just mentioning him makes me immediately disregard the POV of the message, simply because I think he is beyond ridiculous. (Did I already mention he's absolutely, laughably ridiculous?)

Ok. I'll let it go. Really. Right now.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *granolamomma* 
Oh, I totally agree. Although I have to say it really bugs me that I might (should I care to ever really research JP) ever agree with him







. And I've enjoyed the information you've given so far as someone who really is inpartial. I just couldn't not point out that on any given day just mentioning him makes me immediately disregard the POV of the message, simply because I think he is beyond ridiculous. (Did I already mention he's absolutely, laughably ridiculous?)

Ok. I'll let it go. Really. Right now.









I know, it sucks when you someone you can't stand takes your side in an argument. Almost makes you want to switch sides!


----------



## FLDoula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
The expenditures I spoke of ARE highly encouraged as a means for growing business. It is obvious that many distributors do make such expenditures, since there are literally thousands of JP distributor websites that use the generic NSA template, which is provided when one pays the hefty additional monthly fees for such service.

Well, it is $15 per month, not sure everyone would consider that hefty and it is not required unless you want to give someone a website to order from.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Almost every distributor I have encountered also strongly promotes the JP Children's Research Foundation to their prospective customers, and as I pointed out earlier, distributors are required to give a $360 "donation" to the Foundation in order to be allowed to enroll participants.

Well, it is interesting that I have never paid this $360 "donation" and I recommend the Children's Research Foundation to family and friends and they are on it. Again, not sure what manual you are reading, but MINE does not say this and my paychecks don't show it either.

If someone wants to take Juice Plus as an adult, why not get a child on it for free in the process?

There are thousands of people taking Juice Plus every month and many for many many years. They are all very happy with it. Everyone needs to make their own choice for their health. Some people take over the counter vitamins, some take natural vitamins from the health food store, some choose whole food supplementation, and others choose to add one of the juices that is on the market to their diet. That is the beauty of this world. We all can make choices for ourselves, and it is ultimately up to us to decide what we want to do.

And as far as the comment to me about not providing proof of docs that are recommending Juice Plus and not distributors, they don't have websites for the most part because they are just individual docs trying to help their patients out. There are at least two here in the city that I live in.

A doctor that is no affiliated with NSA/Juice Plus that recommends the product is Dr. Isadore Rosenfeld from FoxNews. He says that vitamins in bottles made in lab are not good and does not recommend them because he does not think they are absorbed. But he does recommend Juice Plus and has said so on the air a few times.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
If someone wants to take Juice Plus as an adult, why not get a child on it for free in the process?

Why not? How about the fact that the Children's Research Foundation is using its tax-exempt status and the funds provided by new distributors to subsidize sales of the product under the fraudulent guise of contributing to research on children's health? This organization has been in existence for 9 years and has collected over a million taxpayer-subsidized dollars but has not produced one iota of published research data and seems to have no intention of ever doing so. If it were in fact a research foundation, it would have to be judged as a miserable failure by any objective standards.

I also find it incredibly dishonest that NSA is not forthcoming about it's direct control of the Foundation. The JPCRF is nothing more than an office within NSA headquarters and it is controlled by senior executives of NSA. Yet NSA is not mentioned anywhere on the JPCRF website and the foundation is deceptively presented as an independent research organization.

I think those are all pretty valid reasons as to why one should not participate in the program. This exploitation of children under the guise of research is one of NSAs most transparent and shameful promotional scams, and I honestly don't see how anyone who knows the truth could ever, in good conscience, promote the JPCRF.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
There are thousands of people taking Juice Plus every month and many for many many years. They are all very happy with it.

That seems arbitrary and misleading. What efforts has anyone made to accurately monitor the thousands of people who may have tried JP, and to distinguish who among them were happy with it and who were not? If NSA had at least published reliable data showing a high percentage of repeat customers over the course of several years (and they have not), that would be one thing, but absent that, why make such a tenuous claim? I very strongly suspect the opposite to be true, i.e. a very low percentage of new customers return after the first or second order.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
Everyone needs to make their own choice for their health&#8230;.That is the beauty of this world. We all can make choices for ourselves, and it is ultimately up to us to decide what we want to do.

Yes, and in order to make good choices, people need honest, reliable information. Misleading information, illegal disease treatment claims, and high-pressure sales pitches help no one except for those who stand to profit from JP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
And as far as the comment to me about not providing proof of docs that are recommending Juice Plus and not distributors, they don't have websites for the most part because they are just individual docs trying to help their patients out. There are at least two here in the city that I live in.

Yes, it seems so demanding of people when they ask for evidence to back up extraordinary claims about the health benefits of overpriced, nutrient-deficient multivitamins. If these doctors were seeing anything miraculous with JP, like disease cures or reduction of symptoms, why wouldn't they be telling the world by publishing case reports in the medical journals instead of allowing the information to be disseminated by distributors? But just for kicks, why don't you provide us with the names of the 2 doctors to whom you are referring.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLDoula* 
A doctor that is no affiliated with NSA/Juice Plus that recommends the product is Dr. Isadore Rosenfeld from FoxNews. He says that vitamins in bottles made in lab are not good and does not recommend them because he does not think they are absorbed. But he does recommend Juice Plus and has said so on the air a few times.

Ah yes, Rosenfeld. Anytime someone points out that virtually every endorser of the product is on the payroll, distributors always resort to this one sad, lone example. Is this the only person on record who ever recommended JP and did not have a financial interest in the product (and we don't even know for certain that he doesn't)? Merely parroting 20 seconds of NSA promotional-speak, as he did, does not constitute a meaningful endorsement. Rosenfeld's only statements on JP consisted of two very brief sound bites on Fox news that were identical verbatim to what can be found in a JP brochure. He never provided any details as to why he recommends JP and never said anything that would counter the criticism of the product. He has never commented publicly on JP since then and we don't know whether he would stand by his previous comments if he were asked today.


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## Brenda Damachuk

Let's look a little more closely at the example that was provided of an allegedly independent authority, Isadore Rosenfled, who recommended JP. I criticized this example as being superifical and essentially useless, and wanted to show my justification for saying so.

Rosenfeld made his comments quite a long time ago; 2002 to be exact. His two brief sound bites were run by Fox on _Sunday Housecall: Covered From Head to Toe_. They were both exactly 55 seconds in length and seemed to be nothing more than commercials for JP. There was no substance whatsoever to his comments and he seemed to follow NSAs marketing script to the letter. He was asked two questions. These questions and his exact replies were as follows:

Announcer: _"Are fruit juice pills a good substitute for fruit?"_
Rosenfeld: _"That's a very interesting question. Look, there is no doubt that eating the fruit itself is the best thing to do. But you&#8230;in order to really benefit from&#8230;from&#8230;from fruit, you've got to have 5 to 7 servings a day. Now most people can't&#8230;don't have the opportunity to eat fruit and vegetables 5 times&#8230;5 to 7 times a day, so some of these pills are good. The one that I like, and I have no commercial interest in it, is one called Juice Plus, because if you take the capsules in the morning and the capsules in the afternoon, it gives you, in effect, the same as 7 servings of fruits and vegetables. It's the closest thing to the real thing."_

His statement was superficial and the claim that JP "gives you in effect, the same as 7 servings of fruits and vegetables" is just plain wrong; so wrong that I have to wonder whether he is purposely lying or is just an idiot. To name but a few examples that contradict his claim, JP in actuality provides a very small fraction of the fiber, potassium, and antioxidant activity of even ONE serving of the real thing. This data is in the public domain. Four JP caps provide: (a) only 1 g of fiber, while a single apple or orange provides more than 3 g; (b) a mere 90 mg of potassium vs. 350 mg in a 6 oz glass of OJ; and (c) the antioxidant activity of only 30 g (roughly one-third of a serving) of fresh produce (according to a 1996 study by Chambers et al.).

Announcer: _"Does this (JP) work?"_
Rosenfeld: _"OK. Alright, let me tell you something. First of all I have no relationship with Juice Plus&#8230;I have no commercial or other relationship, so this is not a commercial. I believe that people should eat 5 to 7 servings of fruits and vegetables every day. That is not always possible but that is the preferred way to get your fruits and vegetables. If you can't, this particular product -- which is a dried&#8230;they&#8230;they&#8230;they dry the fresh fruits and vegetables -- is very well made and is the closest thing that I know to&#8230;to fresh fruits and vegetables. They&#8230;my grandchildren have it&#8230;they have a&#8230;take it, they have a&#8230;a child's version, they even have a pet version, and we use it in our family. I can't always get 5 fruits and vegetables a day; I take it. There are some data that indicates it does in fact protect."_

A high school student could have provided more insightful answers than these! And why did he repeatedly deny having a financial interest? No one ever asked him such a question nor did they suggest that he did have a financial interest.


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## chiro_kristin

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
as I pointed out earlier, distributors are required to give a $360 "donation" to the Foundation in order to be allowed to enroll participants. Obviously NSA is taking in a lot of collateral revenue through these activities, and they are costing distributors a lot of money.

I'm not going to go dig out my manual, but I have helped people get into this program and I don't know anything about the donation. And I certainly would have heard about it had those people in the program been asked for the donation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
A company called Pharmanex promotes an in-office skin carotenoid test, and some chiros perform it and charge their clients for the service, but free radical/antioxidant biochemists consider it to be fairly useless and unreliable (a very good critique on the Pharmanex test was published by Hammond et al. Journal of Investigative Dermatology. 2004;122:544-545). If this was the test you were referring to, then I wonder why you think it is important to have very high beta-carotene levels in the skin? Skin carotenoid levels are in no way indicative of overall antioxidant status or carotenoid levels in other parts of the body. Jacking up one's skin carotenoid levels is not considered to have any beneficial effects, with the _possible_ exception of skin cancer prevention, and even then, the levels don't need to be extraordinarily high. And as you are probably aware, there are several studies that have shown that taking supplemental beta-carotene can increase the risk for certain diseases, such as lung cancer.


Can you quote some of these studies? Not denying that they exist, just asking. I'd be happy to answer the rest of this at a later time, but I'm about to hit the hay before an early morning. Actually, since you've already made up your mind about these types of supplements, if anyone else would like to know about this subject, start a thread and PM me as to its existence.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Was there something in particular that Barrett said about JP that you disagree with or are you just dismissing him entirely because of his position on chiro or some other area unrelated to JP?


I gladly admit I have never read his pages on JP. From what I have read, in addition to chirowatch, I find him to be an expert on nothing except his "exposes" (and possibly psychiatry per his degree). To go into this further would be incredibly OT, so to discuss how SB attacking JP is okay but JP attacking SB isn't, would be moot.


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## chiro_kristin

Okay, I couldn't resist. I'm terribly sorry that this has gotten incredibly OT.







Please don't continue to read this post if you are only interested in reading about JP. Well, I don't know, maybe this still would be of interest as I am talking about antioxidants.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Free radical/antioxidant biochemists consider it to be fairly useless and unreliable (a very good critique on the Pharmanex test was published by Hammond et al. Journal of Investigative Dermatology. 2004;122:544-545).

The scanner in 2006 is different than it was in 2004. That was ONE critique. Do you have others, and more current ones? Pharmanex has over 130 PhD scientists, MDs, biochemists, etc on staff. Sure they are paid, but 130! Lester Packer, PhD, the father of the whole antioxidant theory, gives his seal of approval to the biophotonic scanner (the old one, not even the new one). He is not being paid by the company. They have a scientific advisory board of unpaid scientists who regulate. Lester Packer is one of them. [/QUOTE]

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
I wonder why you think it is important to have very high beta-carotene levels in the skin?

Beta carotene is one of many skin carotenoids, including lycopene, astaxanthin, zeaxanthin, phytofluene, lutein, gamma carotene, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Skin carotenoid levels are in no way indicative of overall antioxidant status or carotenoid levels in other parts of the body.

Carotenoids themselves are potent antioxidants. Tsuchiya and colleagues wrote in 1994 that a typical carotenoid molecule is able to sustain more than 23 free radical hits before being completely destroyed (Methods of Enzymology 1994). Also, obviously if the carotenoid molecules are appearing in the skin, they have been absorbed by other cells of the body, along with their presumptive antioxidant effects. Tsuchiya and colleagues, with Lester Packer (father of the antioxidant theory) as a coauthor, also published the first paper on this topic in 1992. Setting their own potently beneficial effects aside, and focusing on applied levels of other antioxidants, it is important to note that as early as 1995, correlation between levels of carotenoids as well as other antioxidants, specifically tocopherols, were noted (Pang and colleagues, Nutrition and Cancer). In terms of disease prevention, Stahl and Sies in Biochim Biophs Acta also reviewed that the consumption of a diet rich in carotenoids (which would show up in the skin and be measurable) has been epidemiologically correlated with a lower risk for several diseases.

Carotenoid action involves interference in several pathways related to cancer cell proliferation and includes changes in the expression of many proteins participating in these processes.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
And as you are probably aware, there are several studies that have shown that taking supplemental beta-carotene can increase the risk for certain diseases, such as lung cancer.

Again, I would like to have these references, as I wonder what kind of beta carotene is being used. GNC brand or the like? Not all supplements are created equal.

Just to drive the point home about carotenoids being a predictor of other antioxidants, Svilaas and colleagues examined the consumption of fruits and vegetables and measured serum carotenoids as well as other more conventionally measured water soluble antioxidants in 2670 adults (General Nutrition 2004). They found that the ability of carotenoids to predict serum levels of other antioxidants was stronger than the predictive ability of alpha, beta, delta and gamma tocopherols, as well as glutathione. In other words, the level of carotenoids is actually more important than the total level of vitamin E - a much more conventionally cited antioxidant - and inferring the total antioxidant protective level of the system.

I have to echo FLDoula's sentiment but in a more curious manner... are you a interent/research-scouring Brenda Q Public, or are you affiliated with a certain product or company, or are you a researcher, scientist, nutritionist, or hcp of any type? What is your education level in the matter? I'm not saying you have to be a "something" in order to be knowledgeable, I'm just curious.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
Can you quote some of these studies? Not denying that they exist, just asking.

OK but I know we are getting off topic, so I'll post this last reply here and then join you on a different thread if you wish.

I am not sure which studies you were referring to precisely but I'll try to elaborate in general and hope to hit on the ones you were looking for. I provided one reference that outlines some of the limitations and weaknesses of the Pharmanex method (Hammond et al. Journal of Investigative Dermatology. 2004;122:544-545).). Many of the other points are either established facts or based on common sense. There is no debating that what the Pharmanex test (based on biophotonic Raman spectroscopy) actually measures are total carotenoids in skin. That's what it was developed to do (Hata et al. J Invest Dermatol 2000;15:441-448). The method does not allow for meaningful inferences about total antioxidant status in the body because (a) the carotenoids are but one of many different classes of antioxidants that contribute to antioxidant status, some of which are endogenous and some of which are obtained through the diet; and (b) the uptake of dietary antioxidants and the levels of endogenous antioxidants differ greatly among different tissue/cell/organelle types, so the antioxidant status of the skin bears no relationship to antioxidant status at these other sites. Lastly, the paper I cited above outlines many technical issues that question the ability of this method to even measure skin carotenoids accurately. Tests for antioxidant status that are considered to be reliable include direct blood or cell measurements of specific antioxidants, or GC assays of free radical byproducts such 8-OH-dG and isoprostanes, but that would be expensive and impractical in the absence of a medical necessity. I have looked at some of the Pharmanex scanner research and did not see anything to convince me of its value to consumers.

This may seem OT, but it is actually important to consider with respect to JP and other antioxidant supplements. Many laypeople have a very simplistic notion as to the characteristics of free radicals and antioxidants and how they can influence disease. They often think that merely flooding the body with some dietary antioxidants is a panacea for prevention and treatment, but it isn't. The underlying biochemistry is quite complex and there are technical issues that most non-experts wouldn't really understand, such as reduction-oxidation potentials, selective targeting of tissues, extracellular vs cytoplasmic vs nuclear sites of action, etc. Many people also fail to realize that free radicals are produced normally by the body and in some cases they serve important functions, such as in the immune response of certain white blood cells, the metabolism of toxins in the liver, the control of vascular tone, and intracellular signaling. When you flood a cell with exogenous antioxidants there is always a risk of interfering with some useful biologic process, which could have detrimental effects. This leads back to the studies I mentioned earlier about increased lung cancer risk among smokers who took beta-carotene supplements. One of the studies was published by Goodman et al (J Natl Cancer Inst. 2004;96:1743-50). Other studies have also shown that antioxidants can have negative effects on diseases. Hope this helps

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
Actually, since you've already made up your mind about these types of supplements...

No, I haven't&#8230;honestly. I have made up my mind about JP because NSA simply went way too far out on a limb with fraudulent marketing and lame research and there is too much negative evidence to ignore. I am guessing that you perhaps sell the Pharmanex supplements, and I haven't looked in to them yet. But I do know which questions you would need to ask to evaluate the product's composition and the validity of the manufacturer's claims. Just let me know if you ever want my 2 cents. I'll just warn you in advance, be wary about megadosing with beta-carotene. Many people seem to follow a philosophy of "if some is enough, then more than enough must be better". There is no reason to think that getting more than the RDA for beta-carotene is good for you, and as I pointed out earlier, there is some fairly compelling evidence that it can be harmful.

I'll go even farther out on a limb and suggest to you, as a fellow health professional, that your clients would be best served if you could devise effective ways to get them to modify their diets rather than take supplements. You are in a unique position to make a real difference in that regard. Promote the message that it's NOT difficult to eat 7 or more servings of produce a day if one makes the right efforts. Teach them how to eat properly. Encourage variety and stress the importance of planning for time to shop and prepare good foods. Create sample grocery lists that include a variety of healthy foods for people to choose when they go shopping. Find and recommend good recipe books and healthy eating magazines. If you have a clinic newsletter, include a list of fruits and vegetables that are in season every month. I don't know if those particular ideas would make a difference but at least you get an idea of where I'm going.

The dilemma is that you are also a businessperson and selling supplements provides cash flow. So with that in mind, I would just encourage you to only recommend supplements that list all of their ingredients, contain a good range and amount of nutrients and antioxidants, do not greatly exceed RDAs, and are not sold by companies that make outrageous or unsupported claims. Lastly, think about price as well. The jury is not out yet as to whether supplements really offer much of a benefit to health for most people, so think of the supplement as potential insurance and then look for one with the best cost to benefit ratio. Unnecessary healthcare expenditures can definitely have a negative impact. Good luck to you and thanks for listening&#8230;

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
To go into this further would be incredibly OT, so to discuss how SB attacking JP is okay but JP attacking SB isn't, would be moot.

Yes, I guess that's a reasonable point. Fair is fair. However, people can attack Barrett all they want, and I don't really care if they do, but it still doesn't make him wrong about JP. As I said before, if he presented facts on JP that were incorrect, they should be pointed out.


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## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
Okay, I couldn't resist. I'm terribly sorry that this has gotten incredibly OT.







Please don't continue to read this post if you are only interested in reading about JP. Well, I don't know, maybe this still would be of interest as I am talking about antioxidants.

You raised some good questions and I would be happy to offer my thoughts, but perhaps we should start a new thread.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
Okay, I couldn't resist. I'm terribly sorry that this has gotten incredibly OT.







Please don't continue to read this post if you are only interested in reading about JP. Well, I don't know, maybe this still would be of interest as I am talking about antioxidants.

I just couldn't resist one more reply before we move this to a new thread.

It's so funny that you would mention Lester Packer. It reminds me of story from when I was a graduate student attending one of my first big international research meetings on free radicals and antioxidants. I saw that Lester Packer was giving a talk, and I was familiar with him because he was getting media exposure at the time. I brought up his name to an expert researcher and was surprised when he dismissed Packer as a bit of hack. It took me a few more years before I really understood why. Packer made some notable contributions a long, long time ago and then opted for the media spotlight instead of pursuing cutting edge research. What we know about free radicals and antioxidants today goes far beyond the simplistic concepts that prevailed when Packer was in his prime. Since then, he has stayed on the sidelines instead of the front lines. Think of the real experts as the guys in combat and Packer as the retired colonel sitting at home stateside resting on his laurels and watching the war on CNN. There are many, many active 5-star general researchers whose opinions carry far more weight than Packer. I haven't asked them about the Pharmanex test but I am quite confident that their opinions wouldn't differ much from mine. So, sorry to say, Packer's seal of approval means absolutely nothing to me, it just makes me groan a bit. I haven't seen the rest of the Pharmanex advisory board and have no idea what they are saying about the test, but just bear in mind that merely serving as an advisor is not the same as an endorsement. If you have any links for the ad board, let me know and I'll get back to you.

I am curious to know why you think the Pharamanex test offers value to patients because I don't see how it could. Let's say it was able to detect whether someone's skin carotenoids levels are low. So what? What do you we do next? Tell them to eat more fruits and vegetables? That's what we should be telling them to do anyway, so there is no value for the patient to spend money on a test to tell them what they probably already know. Another possibility is that you would recommend a supplement. But again, why should someone have to pay money for a test whose results only tell them that they should be taking a multivitamin? They can do that for 5 cents a day without the need for an expensive test. What if you test someone who already takes beta-carotene supplements and they show high skin carotenoids on the Pharmanex test? What does that tell you? It doesn't tell you that their general nutritional intake or overall antioxidant status is good; it only tells you that they are storing excess beta-carotene from the supplement in their skin. The test doesn't distinguish between different types of carotenoids and if someone is taking a supplement that is high in beta-carotene, the test results will only reflect beta-carotene storage.

Is this test useful for monitoring improvements in carotenoid levels during supplementation? It's hard to say for sure but unlikely. We don't even know whether the test can distinguish between adequate intake and suboptimal intake of carotenoids. Is the test sensitive enough to detect the relatively small difference in skin carotenoid levels resulting from marginal vs. adequate intake or can the test only detect the differences when someone takes unnecessarily high doses of beta-carotene? Remember the goal is to get enough, not to get too much.

What would we do differently if we gave someone a carotenoid supplement and they did not show increased carotenoid levels on the test? Would you up the dose without knowing why they weren't absorbing it in the first place? That probably would not be wise. All in all, I just don't see the value in this test for consumers. I see its value as twofold: (1) it is a billable procedure that generates revenue for the HCP, and (2) it is a good way for Pharmanex to convince people to buy their supplements, even though the validity of test itself and the need for the supplement is questionable.

We can go over some of your other points in the new thread. I'm enjoying the discussion very much so far.


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## Brenda Damachuk

By the way, when I said it was "funny" that you mentioned Packer, I just meant funny as in coincidental. Hope it didn't come across as mocking in any way.


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## chiro_kristin

I started a new thread, Brenda.


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## apmommy76

I was skeptical at first too!!!







My pediatrician recommended it first when I switched to him about a year and a half ago. I said no, no again, and then we finally tried it after I did some research. Now I'm a believer!! We've been taking it for more than a year and I just signed up to be a distributor. I also wrote a review of the product at Bella:

Product Review: Juice Plus
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art36465.asp


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## apmommy76

*Quackbusters "Horse-Whipped" by Missouri Supreme Court...*

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Wednesday, March 23rd, 2005

The North American "quackbuster" operation is scrambling for survival - because, among other things, the American Court System is "horse-whipping" them.

I just received word about a new Supreme Court Case Decision involving an attack on an innovative health practitioner, Edward W. McDonagh, D.O., from Missouri , who had the common sense to use chelation therapy on his heart patients.

Of course his patients got better, and of course the State, blindly following the recommendations, and the nonsensical statements, found on delicensed MD Stephen Barrett's ludicrous "quackwatch.com" website, tried to take this dedicated healer's license to practice medicine away from him.

They failed.

Not only did they fail, but the resulting Supreme Court Decision has become a landmark, and will be used across the land, as "case law" whenever any State agency is dumb enough, or sleazy enough, to use the "quackbusters" or "quackbuster" dogma, as a resource. The case decision had a lot to say about a lot of issues.

The final words of the Missouri Supreme Court Decision are: "This case needs to be over. The board should end the case itself rather than suffer the indignity of further adverse commission and judicial rulings, to say nothing of the waste of public resources that such proceedings will entail."

You can read the whole decision by clicking here. When you go to the page you'll find the decision in two parts. The first part (in green text) is the decision of the Missouri Appeals Court . The second part (in black text) is the words of the Missouri Supreme Court.

Here's what one of the Missouri Supreme Court Justices said about the State's action against Doctor McDonagh, and some of the bigoted assumptions made by the State in the McDonagh case:

Physicians are afforded considerable leeway in the use of professional judgment to decide on appropriate treatments, especially when applying the negligence standard. For instance, Hasse v. Garfinkel, 418 S.W.2d 108, 114 (Mo. 1967), a medical negligence case, holds that "as long as there is room for an honest difference of opinion among competent physicians, a physician who uses his own best judgment cannot be convicted of negligence, even though it may afterward develop that he was mistaken." "Negligence" does not seem an appropriate concept where the physician has studied the problem and has made a treatment recommendation, even though that is not the prevailing view of the majority of the profession. The lack of general acceptance of a treatment does not necessarily constitute a breach of the standard of care. The use of negligence in licensing situations, in the absence of harm or danger, is particularly inappropriate.

One could argue that because chelation therapy is not accepted by mainstream medicine and is an off-label practice not approved by the FDA, it is therefore harmful and dangerous. If that were the board's position, the licensing statute would thwart advances in medical science. A dramatic example is the treatment of stomach ulcers, which were long thought to be caused by stress. In 1982, two Australians found the bacterium helicobacter pylori in the stomach linings of ulcer victims. Because helicobacter pylori is a bacterium, some physicians -- a minority to be sure -- began prescribing antibiotics to treat stomach ulcers as an infectious disease. The National Institutes of Health did not recognize antibiotic therapy until 1994; the FDA approved the first antibiotic for use in treating stomach ulcers in 1996; and the Centers for Disease Control began publicizing the treatment in 1997. Today's physicians accept as fact that most stomach ulcers are primarily caused by helicobacter pylori bacteria infection and not by stress. (FN6) But, by the chronology of this discovery, if a physician in the late 1980s or early 1990s had treated ulcers with antibiotics, that treatment would have been "negligent" as the board in this case interprets that term because inappropriate use of antibiotics can be dangerous."

Delicensed MD Stephen Barrett, and his nefarious website "quackwatch.com," the "quackbuster's" " bible, is being dropped, as a resource, almost EVERYWHERE. It is court Decisions like this that fuel these actions.

Irony...

Ironically, and what has to be particularly galling for the "quackbusters." is that Missouri was the home-base of one of the originators of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF) - John Renner MD. Renner died on the operating room table while undergoing Cardiac Bypass Surgery - in Missouri . Renner was AGAINST chelation therapy, and was probably instrumental in causing this attack against Doctor McDonagh. The Missouri Supreme Court said, very pointedly:

"In contrast, according to the commission, cardiac bypass surgery -- an approved therapy for severe athlerosclerosis -- has an operative mortality rate of between two and 30 percent, depending on where you are in the United States, and mental impairment occurs in as many as 18 percent of cardiac bypass patients..."

The self-styled National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF), the "quackbuster's" flagship, has sunk - it is financially insolvent, legally defunct, and its members owe the homeopathic world over $100,000 in legal fees it can't pay. The NCAHF president, Bobbie Baratz, has been ripped apart in the Courtroom, and his "testifying" income has been curtailed.

Things are not going well for the "quackbusters." They are not going to survive 2005.

We are heading for a health care "Nuremberg..." And, it's about time...

Stay tuned...

Tim Bolen - Consumer Advocate

This "Millions of Health Freedom Fighters - Newsletter" is about the battle between "Health and Medicine" on Planet Earth. Tim Bolen is an op/ed writer with extensive knowledge of the activities of a subversive organization calling itself the "quackbusters," and that organization's attempts to suppress, and discredit, any, and all health modalities that compete with the allopathic (MD) paradigm for consumer health dollars. The focus of the newsletter is on the ongoing activities, battles, politics, and the victories won by members of the "Health Freedom Movement" against the "quackbusters" It details "who the quackbusters are, what they are, where they are operating, when they appear, and how they operate - and how easy it is to beat them..."

For background information on the " Battle between Health and Medicine" go to: http://www.savedrclark.net/by_whom2.htm. A copy of THIS newsletter, and older ones, are viewable at the website http://www.quackpotwatch.org/default.htm.

For EVEN MORE interesting and related articles go to http://www.bolenreport.com.


----------



## apmommy76

Guys...he's against ANYTHING alternative--not just products like Juice Plus.

I found Pam Popper's take on this. FYI, she runs The Wellness Forum (www.wellnessforum.com).

Dear Dr. Pam:

Who is Dr. Stephen Barrett and why does he hate alternative medicine so much?
Adrian H.

Dear Adrian:

Stephen Barrett is a non-practicing, non-licensed psychiatrist who maintains a web site that provides the public with his opinions about why alternative medicine and alternative practitioners are not effective. There is no real research to support his views, and he has lost several court cases recently based on his inability to support his positions. He does not disclose much about his own background or the source of the funding for his operations. In addition to his web site, he has appeared as an expert witness in several court cases against practitioners, and has filed several actions of his own on behalf of his organization, The National Council Against Health Fraud.

His stance is that almost everything but traditional western medicine is ineffective for the treatment of disease. These are a few of the people and practices that Dr. Barrett thinks are ineffective and/or incompetent:

Dr. Bernie Siegel, M.D.
Deepok Chopra
Chiropractic
Acupuncture
Homeopathy
Vitamins
Herbs
Although traditional medicine has used Barrett and his information in an attempt to discredit alternative practice and natural alternatives to pharmaceutical drugs, the tide seems to be turning against Dr. Barrett.

Barrett and his organization, the National Council Against Health Fraud, filed a lawsuit against King Bio Pharmaceuticals, makers of homeopathic remedies, alleging that their products were ineffective and unsafe. The judge in the case ruled against Barrett and these are excerpts from the judge's opinion dismissing it:

Barrett lacks sufficient qualifications to be an expert in this field
He is not a lawyer, but has taken several correspondence courses in law, which does not qualify him as a legal expert
There was no real focus to his testimony with respect to any of the issues in this case
Little weight should be given to Barrett's testimony, as he is a long-time board member of the plaintiff and collects large fees for being a witness from the plaintiff. This presents a conflict of interest in that he has a direct financial interest in the outcome of this litigation - a positive outcome would be the basis for other suits of this type, which would require his services as an expert witness.
The case was appealed and King Bio prevailed again on appeal.
The Court of appeals found that Barrett "presented no evidence that King Bio's products were not safe and effective, relying instead on a general attack on homeopathy, made by witnesses who had no knowledge of or experience with King Bio's products and who were found to be biased and unworthy of credibility."
In another action, Stephen Barrett filed an action against Darlene Sherrell, a researcher who maintains a web site about the dangers of fluoridation in the water. Her information includes references to Barrett and his long-time stance that there is no danger resulting from fluoridating water. Her comments about him were less than kind.

Barrett filed a lawsuit against Sherrell for $100,000 in damages, stating that her statements about him were untrue. At the trial, Barrett could produce no studies demonstrating the safety of fluoridation and presented only himself and one other witness and no research to document his claim. The case was dismissed.

Century Press has filed a $10 million lawsuit against Barrett for filing frivolous lawsuits against some of the authors they publish.

A judge in Oakland California threw out a lawsuit filed by Stephen Barrett, Terry Polevoy and Christopher Grell against Ilena Rosenthal. The judge also ordered that Barrett et al pay Rosenthal's legal fees and expenses, stating that the plaintiffs had no evidence of wrongdoing and no evidence against Rosenthal when they filed their case. This decision was based on the California Strategic Lawsuits Against Participation statute, which seeks to prevent lawsuits that are "brought primarily to chill the valid exercise of free speech and petition for redress of grievances."

In response to recent losses in court, Barrett dropped his lawsuit against Joseph Mercola, an alternative doctor who Barrett rails against in his writings. Dr. Mercola had published information on his web site about Barrett, and Barrett alleged that this information was responsible for damage to his reputation.

Dr. Barrett's days as an "expert" are, in my opinion, numbered. People are starting to fight back using the court system and they are winning. This has cooled his propensity to get involved in some cases, and he has tempered his comments a great deal so as to avoid more lawsuits.

Stephen Barrett Gets What He Deserves
One of the biggest enemies of progress in medicine is Dr. Stephen Barrett, who operates numerous websites proclaiming that almost any form of treatment outside traditional medicine offered by medical doctors is quackery. Barrett has devoted his life to trying to discredit complementary and alternative medicine. His definition of alternative medicine is quite broad and includes many things considered mainstream by most, including chiropractic.

Barrett's reign of terror is coming to an end. The most recent chapter in the story is that on October 13, 2005, Pennsylvania Judge Brian Johnson threw out Barrett's defamation lawsuit against Dr. Ted Koren. Barrett's lawsuit sought damages against Koren and his company for statements he made in his newsletter about Barrett in 2001. Koren reported, among other things, that Barrett was de-licensed and in trouble due to a $10 million lawsuit. Koren stated that his comments were true.

Judge Johnson concluded after hearing the case that there was insufficient evidence to support Barrett's claim and directed the verdict before the case was given to the jury to decide.

For years, Barrett has held himself out as a medical expert on quackery and fraud in health care. In addition to appearing as an expert witness in numerous trials, he has been quoted in magazine articles and made several television appearances. He also has been busy filing lawsuits against those he deems to be quacks.

According to information in Koren's newsletter, Barrett has not been a licensed physician since the early 1990's. He was the subject of a $10 million lawsuit under the RICO statue that has since been withdrawn.

During the trial, Barrett admitted that he was not a Board Certified psychiatrist because he failed the certification exam. He also acknowledged that he had no legal training, even though he holds himself out as a legal expert.

Also at trial it was revealed that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against close to 40 people and did not win a single one at trial. He conceded that he had ties to the American Medical Association, the Federal trade Commission, and the FDA.

I do not often revel in other people's misfortunes, but this person has caused so much misfortune for others that it is hard not to be happy about what is happening to him now. What goes around comes around, and this guy is finally getting what he deserves.

For more information on the misfortunes of Dr. Stephen Barrett, visit the newsletter archives section of our website at www.wellnessforum.com. You'll find another article under "Editorials" in 2004.


----------



## chellemarie

Just so everyone is aware:

Pam Popper has close ties to Juice Plus+ and the Wellness Forum is largely lacking in content. Everything I click leads me to an opportunity to buy something.


----------



## FLDoula

Pam Popper has a ton of information on how to change the course of your health and that of your children. She has books on ADD, Obesity, curing your child of being a "junk food junkie" so to speak, hormones, etc. Her whole take on health is curing it from a natural stand point. Read some of the stuff she actually has online then make your choice. It is a "wellness forum" and she wants to educate you, and this is her business. Her products are very well done, in my opinion, and very reasonably priced. The information on Stephen Barrett is very interesting, in my opinion.


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## chellemarie

But, uh, she does have an interest in Juice Plus+ and its success. There are members of this site that have a ton of information about changing one's health and they're not charging $150 a year to share what they know.

I'm not sure what you mean by "It is a 'wellness forum'"? That's what it is called, yes, but what are you getting at?


----------



## chiro_kristin

JP connections aside, what is wrong with someone using their knowledge to make a living?


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## Brookesmom

I'm so glad I found this thread! My searches weren't coming up with anything.

We seem to be getting a lot of colds here and a couple weeks ago my chiro said "you need to boost your immune system" - how about if I have my Juice Plus rep contact you? Well, the lady is calling and wanting me to call her back now that I have the JP CD to listen to. She's gonna want an answer for me.









I already eat a decent amount of veggies (esp. in the summer), water kefir, coconut oil, cod liver oil and grassfed meats, etc. I'm not sure I want to spend more $$ but if it helped us from getting colds it would be worth a try. And my chiro is never sick I swear. (I'm still getting my adjustments too).

My question: Do you have to sign up for a big commitment to try it, like several months? Would I be able to buy just one bottle and try it a month ? It sounds like there is at least a veggie blend and a couple fruit blends and she'd want me to buy both, and maybe multiple bottles up front? (I see them sold in 4 packs I think it was on the website)

I'm always a little leery of any type of salesperson LOL and don't want to waste my time and hers to hear a long spiel and find out it's like $100 or something and I'm stuck with 4 months of capsules I might not take (I'm not the most consistent with taking supplements- I"d rather get it from real foods *if possible*).

Sometimes I hate confrontation (and commitment?)LOL. Would love some more info on the nitty-gritty before I decide.

thanks! Kelly


----------



## chellemarie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiro_kristin* 
JP connections aside, what is wrong with someone using their knowledge to make a living?

Nothing, really. But that website isn't clear about what it is really selling. I saw the Wellness Forum a few years ago (referred by a Juice Plus+ distributor) and was baffled why I was given the link. I asked, "Do I buy supplements or something here?" The answer was, "No. She has a lot of great information about being healthy." But everything I clicked took me to a page to click to buy. That's not a forum. That's an advertisement. She may very well know her stuff and have great material and educational opportunities to share, but the set up there makes me uneasy.

I did see today there are newsletters and they appear to be archived.

Brookesmom - You buy a four-month supply of the Orchard and Garden Blend. That's the standard product. My monthly payment was withdrawn directly from my checking account. (The other payment option when I signed up was to use credit card.) The other fruit blend you're talking about is the "Vineyard Blend". That's the first add-on after the basic. Then, if you add kids, you need chewables and gummies. Then you need the Complete which is a powder you make shakes and smoothies with.

You'll probably be told that you should get the four-month supply to start because most people don't see all the benefits until they've been taking it for that long.

I probably have more than a year's supply in my hall closet. They're getting hard to swallow.


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## Brenda Damachuk

Wow, some of you guys are really missing the point on JP by devoting so much time to discussing Barrett. If anyone can defend the product against the myriad of criticisms that have been levied, then they should do so, but it is highly dishonest to pretend that Barrett's credibility is the cornerstone argument for weighing the value of JP. I would also suggest that any further discussion of Barrett that is not directly related to the topic of this thread (i.e. JP) should be posted under a new thread.

The information posted at bellareview.com cannot reasonably be called a "review". It reads as a cut-and-paste from a JP brochure and adds nothing new to the discussion that cannot be found on any other JP seller's website. Pam Popper is a shill for NSA and is the commentator on many of NSAs training and promotional recordings. Was she trotted out as an example of an unbiased authority or merely another financially-motivated talking head for NSA, because she is clearly the latter? It is also clear that Chellemerie has her head screwed on straight, since she was able to immediately point out these details.

To Brookesmom: The product is sold only in 4-month supplies of 8 bottles, which retails for $159. There are no valid reasons that justify either the exorbitant price or the 8-bottle minimum.


----------



## apmommy76

When I started, I bought individual bottles from my distributor! Many keep them on hand. I also tried several samples, etc...All of this before I was ready to try a 4 month supply.

As for defending the product, there are many independent studies. Several well known medical doctors recommend it. It's made of whole fruits and veggies. Why does it need defending? It seems fairly simple to me. I'm trying to understand why it's so controversial. Especially here on a natural parenting board.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Wow, some of you guys are really missing the point on JP by devoting so much time to discussing Barrett. If anyone can defend the product against the myriad of criticisms that have been levied, then they should do so, but it is highly dishonest to pretend that Barrett's credibility is the cornerstone argument for weighing the value of JP. I would also suggest that any further discussion of Barrett that is not directly related to the topic of this thread (i.e. JP) should be posted under a new thread.

The information posted at bellareview.com cannot reasonably be called a "review". It reads as a cut-and-paste from a JP brochure and adds nothing new to the discussion that cannot be found on any other JP seller's website. Pam Popper is a shill for NSA and is the commentator on many of NSAs training and promotional recordings. Was she trotted out as an example of an unbiased authority or merely another financially-motivated talking head for NSA, because she is clearly the latter? It is also clear that Chellemerie has her head screwed on straight, since she was able to immediately point out these details.

To Brookesmom: The product is sold only in 4-month supplies of 8 bottles, which retails for $159. There are no valid reasons that justify either the exorbitant price or the 8-bottle minimum.


----------



## chellemarie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
When I started, I bought individual bottles from my distributor! Many keep them on hand. I also tried several samples, etc...All of this before I was ready to try a 4 month supply.

As for defending the product, there are many independent studies. Several well known medical doctors recommend it. It's made of whole fruits and veggies. Why does it need defending? It seems fairly simple to me. I'm trying to understand why it's so controversial. Especially here on a natural parenting board.

The medical doctors I've heard recommending Juice Plus+ are either distributors themselves or get something in return from the company. I had never heard of Pam Popper or her Wellness Forum until I was introduced to Juice Plus+. I imagine she's getting a lot of traffic through her involvement with JP+.

Now, maybe the product is beneficial, but I need to see some truly independent research to prove it. I would love to get the benefits from more than a dozen fruits and veggies in a couple capsules every day. I'm not convinced JP+ is all it claims to be. The JP+ distributor I know truly believes it's changed her health. But she changed a lot of other things when she started the product. She renewed her commitment to exercise, became suspicious of the merits of meat and dairy, and starting eating a "shake" every day that has foods she rarely if ever ate before starting JP+. (Including green tea, flax, brewer's yeast, and spinach.) She also had the excitement of learning and networking and feeling passionate about something. That alone will make a person feel fantastic.

Some distributors will sell individual bottles and hand out lots of samples. But that's not the way the company means for the product to be sold. I knew when I signed up that it was going to be hard to tell a friend that I didn't want my auto-shipped product anymore. The payment came right out of my account every month - I hardly noticed after a while. That's the way it's supposed to be sold. Automatic payment, automatic ship, you never forget to pick some up at the store, you feel bad telling a friend she can't have your money anymore. It's built-in reorder customers. Very smart.

In the end, I think it's better to use that $42 a month on something else that I know is what it says it is. With that money, I can buy more organic produce, buy milk and yogurt from the health food section, go to the gym, buy exercise videos. Not that I have done those things, because what I really want is all that stuff in a pill because I want it to be that easy.


----------



## apmommy76

Chellemarie,

I just became a distributor 2 weeks ago after using the products for more than a year. To me, autoship makes SENSE. If I'm going to be taking something on a regular basis, it's easier for me to just have it charged and shipped automatically.

As for the independent studies, there are many--even more in the works right now.

As for it's impact, you can get bloodwork done and then take it for several months and have more bloodwork done--if you want definitive proof that it's working for you. Since it's more of a preventative, you might not see the changes on the outside, you know? You may...but you may not. And it can't hurt since it's just fruits and veggies.

Jan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
The medical doctors I've heard recommending Juice Plus+ are either distributors themselves or get something in return from the company. I had never heard of Pam Popper or her Wellness Forum until I was introduced to Juice Plus+. I imagine she's getting a lot of traffic through her involvement with JP+.

Now, maybe the product is beneficial, but I need to see some truly independent research to prove it. I would love to get the benefits from more than a dozen fruits and veggies in a couple capsules every day. I'm not convinced JP+ is all it claims to be. The JP+ distributor I know truly believes it's changed her health. But she changed a lot of other things when she started the product. She renewed her commitment to exercise, became suspicious of the merits of meat and dairy, and starting eating a "shake" every day that has foods she rarely if ever ate before starting JP+. (Including green tea, flax, brewer's yeast, and spinach.) She also had the excitement of learning and networking and feeling passionate about something. That alone will make a person feel fantastic.

Some distributors will sell individual bottles and hand out lots of samples. But that's not the way the company means for the product to be sold. I knew when I signed up that it was going to be hard to tell a friend that I didn't want my auto-shipped product anymore. The payment came right out of my account every month - I hardly noticed after a while. That's the way it's supposed to be sold. Automatic payment, automatic ship, you never forget to pick some up at the store, you feel bad telling a friend she can't have your money anymore. It's built-in reorder customers. Very smart.

In the end, I think it's better to use that $42 a month on something else that I know is what it says it is. With that money, I can buy more organic produce, buy milk and yogurt from the health food section, go to the gym, buy exercise videos. Not that I have done those things, because what I really want is all that stuff in a pill because I want it to be that easy.


----------



## Brookesmom

Thanks chellemarie and Brenda for the info. No way can I spend that kind of money right now on supplements, especially ones I might just replace with more fruits and veggies, which I'm going to do. Now to just get the rep off my back (and now I know why she keeps calling.)









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
To Brookesmom: The product is sold only in 4-month supplies of 8 bottles, which retails for $159. There are no valid reasons that justify either the exorbitant price or the 8-bottle minimum.


----------



## apmommy76

Hmm...I pay less than a dollar a day for my son's vitamins. Since they're made with whole fruits and veggies, I can totally justify the cost. I mean, I'd be willing to spend a dollar a day to make sure he's getting the nutrition he needs...And it has replaced the other vitamins and the probiotics I was giving him.

By the way, that rep sounds pushy. I just signed up a few weeks ago and haven't even called anyone yet. I guess some people are pushier than others.

Jan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brookesmom* 
Thanks chellemarie and Brenda for the info. No way can I spend that kind of money right now on supplements, especially ones I might just replace with more fruits and veggies, which I'm going to do. Now to just get the rep off my back (and now I know why she keeps calling.)


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

The question as to whether JP is a worthwhile product hinges on 2 key points: (1) How much plant powder does it contain and (2) how well is the nutritional value of the source plant material preserved. The answers are simple but not easy to find.

First, JP contains a really small amount of plant powder derived from a very small amount of fresh plant material. Their basic concept is a stupid one because the essence of large amounts of fresh produce cannot be distilled down to 4 capsules. It's just physically impossible.

Secondly, there is no reason to think that JP provides the nutrients from the plant material it contains. The manufacturer has to artificially add fortifying vitamins to the plant powder so that it will provide something of value, and even though distributors always talk about the thousands of phytonutrients in plants, JP has never been shown to contain any of them other than the ones that are added artificially.

These are plain and simple facts which clearly show that the product is essentially worthless; and yet NSA sells it an exorbitant price and customers are locked in to a 4 month 8-bottle purchase for no reason other than profit maximization. Together, these facts tell us that anyone who recommends the product is either doing so because they are profiting from it or they simply have not made any real effort to learn about what the product actually contains and have been duped by marketing hype. Anyone who even hints that this junk can cure diseases needs to have some sense smacked into them.







:







:

I couldn't agree more with Chellmarie about how the money spent on JP could be better used by supporting a healthier diet or joining a gym. Those who can't afford to burn money on useless purchases stand to be hurt in very real ways by buying JP.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
As for the independent studies, there are many--even more in the works right now.

No actually there are not. Although there are "studies", they sure aren't "independent studies". In almost every case, the studies were written and/or funded by the distributor/manufacturer and in most cases they did a terrible job of maintaining neutrality. The results were quite often bad or conflicting too, so it is pointless to merely point out that research exists without adressing what the research actually showed. We can't trust the way that NSA spins it either because they lie through their teeth, and most distributors don't know enough about scientific research to offer a meaningful opinion (not to mention that all they really want is our money). Those that haven't already read up on the product are encouraged to check the web links that were posted earlier on this thread. Here they are again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice_Plus
http://juiceplusresearch.blogspot.com
http://www.pregnancy-info.net/QA/ans...ng_Juice_Plus_
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/1157...dID=637&tab=HC
http://www.environmentalnutrition.co.../150372-1.html
http://www.thedietchannel.com/Dietar...Juice-Plus.htm
http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/2000/4_nutrition.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/3725
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsJuicePlus.php
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/subC.../2000/0011.pdf
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/p...-106/index.htm
http://www.gnld.com.au/downloads/gar...carotenoid.pdf
http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/NSA/juiceplus.html
http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/NSA/crf.html


----------



## artgoddess

This is the funnest thread I have read in a long long time.


----------



## apmommy76

Have you looked over the research? Here are just a few studies that have been published in medical journals:

*Bioavalibility*

Leeds ar, ferris EAE, Staley J, Ayesh R, Ross F.

Availability of micronutrients from dried, encapsulated fruit and vegetable preparations: a study in healthy volunteers. _Journal of Human Nutrition and Dietetics_ 2000

(Study done at King's COllege in London

Findings: The study showed key antioxidant nutrients in both Juice Plus Orchard Blend and Garden Blend capsules were absorbed by the body. In only seven days increased blood levels of antioxidant micronutrients and reduction of a plasma measure of a lipid peroxidation were observed.

*Circulatory Health*

Plotnick GD, Corretti MC, Vogel RA, Hesslink R, Wise JA. Effect of supplemental phytonutrients on impairment of the flow-mediated brachial artery vasoactivity after a single high-fat meal. _Journal of the American College of Cardiology_ 2003

Findings: Daily consumption of Juice Plus for as little as three weeks reduces the immediate adverse effect of high fat meals on blood flow compared to placebo.

*Immune Function*

Inserra PF, Jiang S, Sokoff D, Lee J, Zhang Z, Xu M, Hesslink R, Wise J, Watson RR. Immune Function in elderly smokers and nonsmokers improves during supplementation with fruit and vegetable extracts. Integrative Medicine 1999.

Findings: Daily consumption of Juice Plus effectively increased plasma levels of important antiobxidant nutrients and led to an improvement in selected markers for immune funtion in this elderly population.

There are many more--and many more in progress right now. I'm just not sure why anyone would say that Juice Plus is ineffective if they believe consumption fruits and veggies can indeed have a positive impact on health. If fruits and veggies are good for us, than how could Juice Plus capsules not be? And these studies are being published in MEDICAL JOURNALS. These journals are independent organizations--It's not like these studies are being put out by Juice Plus.

Here are some studies underway now:

University of Mississippi Medical Center-- Pregnancy Health

University of Texas --Nutritional status and quality of life in ovarian tumor survivors

Vanderbilt University-- Parameters of vascular wellness

Yale University-Griffin Hospital Prevention Research Center--Endothelial function in insulin resistant adults

University of FL -- Markers of immune function in healthy young adults

And many more...so more info will be coming out soon.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
The question as to whether JP is a worthwhile product hinges on one 2 key points: (1) How much plant powder does it contain and (2) how well is the nutritional value of the source plant material preserved. The answers are simple but not easy to find.

First, JP contains a really small amount of plant powder derived from a very small amount of fresh plant material. Their basic concept is a stupid one because the essence of large amounts of fresh produce cannot be distilled down to 4 capsules. It's just physically impossible.

Secondly, there is no reason to think that JP provides the nutrients from the plant material it contains. The manufacturer has to artificially add fortifying vitamins to the plant powder so that it will provide something of value, and even though distributors always talk about the thousands of phytonutrients in plants, JP has never been shown to contain any of them other than the ones that are added artificially.

These are plain and simple facts which clearly show that the product is essentially worthless; and yet NSA sells it an exorbitant price and customers are locked in to a 4 month 8-bottle purchase for no reason other than profit maximization. Together, these facts tell us that anyone who recommends the product is either doing so because they are profiting from it or they simply have not made any real effort to learn about what the product actually contains and have been duped by marketing hype. Anyone who even hints that this junk can cure diseases needs to have some sense smacked into them.







:







:

I couldn't agree more with Chellmarie about how the money spent on JP could be better used by supporting a healthier diet or joining a gym. Those who can't afford to burn money on useless purchases stand to be hurt in very real ways by buying JP.


----------



## Janelovesmax

I have nothing against multi-level marketing, but I found that Juice Plus is mediocre at best. There is so much more stuff outthere that's way better and more beneficial.

And forgot to add: They are rip-offs.


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## apmommy76

I'm seriously wondering because I've looked into other products as well. I just signed up to be a distributor so it's not like I'm locked into anything, but I really believe it's the best and the most documented.

Is there something else I should be looking into?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Janelovesmax* 
I have nothing against multi-level marketing, but I found that Juice Plus is mediocre at best. There is so much more stuff outthere that's way better and more beneficial.


----------



## Janelovesmax

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
I'm seriously wondering because I've looked into other products as well. I just signed up to be a distributor so it's not like I'm locked into anything, but I really believe it's the best and the most documented.

Is there something else I should be looking into?

It is absolutely depends on what you are looking for...
I can recommend 2 companies so far:

Waiora. They have a great compensation plan and I'm in love with their Natural Cellular Defense product.

Platinum Health Products. They sell an amazing green powders: Best of Greens, More Greens, as well as individual Spirulina, Chlorella, Daily Fiber Cleanse etc...Their product "Biofruit" is head and shoulders above JP.

Anyway, I'm sure "nutritionally savvy" mothers on this board can guide you into many different exciting directions.


----------



## Victorian

hmm...who to believe...someone that sells the product or someone that trolls boards to argue about it and refuses to answer what her interest in the issue is...

V.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
If fruits and veggies are good for us, than how could Juice Plus capsules not be?

The question you should be asking is: if eating fruits and vegetables is good for us only when consumed by the pound (not by the teaspoon), how could taking capsules with the equivalent of a few grams of fruit and veg possibly offfer any benefits?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
And these studies are being published in MEDICAL JOURNALS.

Missing the point again. The issue is not whether studies have been published but what the studies actually showed. Anyone who wants to read a good balanced review of the research should check out the Wikipedia site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice_Plus


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian* 
hmm...who to believe...someone that sells the product or someone that trolls boards to argue about it and refuses to answer what her interest in the issue is...

How about neither. Save belief for Church and use intellect and commonsense to figure this out.


----------



## granolamomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
How about neither. Save belief for Church and use intellect and commonsense to figure this out.


----------



## apmommy76

Do you understand what Juice Plus is? It's concentrated...Also raw.

The studies have shown that Juice Plus does indeed have a positive impact on health.

I'm not saying everyone should buy it. But I don't like seeing that it's only sold this way or that. When I called my distributor and had her slow down my Complete shipments, it was no big deal. I realized I wasn't using them as fast as I thought, so spaced it out to every 6 months instead of every four. You can speed up or slow down the shipments at any time in order to meet your family's individual needs.

Well, I'm not going to keep sharing info here since it seems that it will only get more heated. Best of luck!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
The question you should be asking is: if eating fruits and vegetables is good for us only when consumed by the pound (not by the teaspoon), how could taking capsules with the equivalent of a few grams of fruit and veg possibly offfer any benefits?

Missing the point again. The issue is not whether studies have been published but what the studies actually showed. Anyone who wants to read a good balanced review of the research should check out the Wikipedia site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juice_Plus


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
Do you understand what Juice Plus is? It's concentrated...

Of course I understand that it is concentrated! Do you understand that JP concentrates are made (according to NSA) by juicing fruits or vegetables and then removing the water, fiber, sugar, and sodium, and that the amount of concentrated powder in 4 JP capsules would correspond to considerably less than a half a serving of the real thing? Anyone can easily reach this same conclusion by performing some simple arithmetic on data available from the USDA.


----------



## artgoddess

I'm sensing a bit of a religious following toward Juice Plus, maybe this debate should be moved to spirituality.


----------



## Taradactyl3

Ok, all debating aside...

I've been on it for a month and a half. I have had the same kind of cold over and over three times since Thanksgiving. I have also had loose bm. My distributor is also a nutritionist and says this is all my body detoxing. Have any of you guys been through anything like this? I'm so sick of being sick, but if this is my body releasing stored toxins than I'll keep taking it in hopes that it eventually levels out, kwim?

Thanks in advance for any opinions on this.

T


----------



## Panserbjorne

Huh. I would have to say if you asked a nutritionist who wasn't peddling JP you'd get a very different answer. I doubt that it's causing your symptoms though. I's say it's unrelated FWIW.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Taradactyl3* 
Ok, all debating aside...

I've been on it for a month and a half. I have had the same kind of cold over and over three times since Thanksgiving. I have also had loose bm. My distributor is also a nutritionist and says this is all my body detoxing. Have any of you guys been through anything like this? I'm so sick of being sick, but if this is my body releasing stored toxins than I'll keep taking it in hopes that it eventually levels out, kwim?

Thanks in advance for any opinions on this.

T

While there is no reason to expect that JP would lessen or prevent cold symptoms or susceptibility, it is not at all surprising that JP caused you to have diarrhea. This is a widely reported side effect of the product. The detox story is simply a convenient fabrication from NSA, which is used to downplay the significance of side effects, and there is no direct evidence to support it.

Other reported adverse effects include hives/rashes, constipation, cramps, fever, nausea, and bloating. One study also reported respiratory tract, urinary, and musculoskeletal side effects in about one-third of people after taking JP for 7 days. Given the many other problems with JP, it's hard to justify putting up with even a single mildly uncomfortable side effect.

My advice is: (a) don't believe anything that a JP distributor tells you about the product because they are invariably either lying or misinformed; and (b) abandon the JP experiment and try something else for your colds. If the colds are recurring often, you might want to get checked by your doctor if you haven't already. You might have a case of bacterial sinusitis which could be easily confirmed with a nasal swab/culture.


----------



## Annikate

I am the OP and I haven't been keeping up w/this thread so WOW! am I surprised at what's been happening here.









I've not read all the replies but I do want to ask Brenda (in all seriousness) how do you know so much about this product and what it is *not*?

I really am trying to learn all I can about it. How do you get your information and why are you so passionate about it?

BTW, a pp talked about Waiora. I, too, like their product and use it.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate* 
I am the OP and I haven't been keeping up w/this thread so WOW! am I surprised at what's been happening here.









I've not read all the replies but I do want to ask Brenda (in all seriousness) how do you know so much about this product and what it is *not*?

I really am trying to learn all I can about it. How do you get your information and why are you so passionate about it?

BTW, a pp talked about Waiora. I, too, like their product and use it.

Hi Annie,
I came to know a lot about this product because I was motivated to do some research after a friend tried to push JP on me. They raved about the breadth and quality of NSAs research and made wild claims about JP curing cancer and other diseases. They were also suspiciously defensive and seemed incapable of discussing the product objectively. The friend who tried to sell it to me had no training in healthcare, nutrition, or medicine, and everything they said about JP was mere rote repetition of company marketing dogma. I found it disturbing and offensive. I later read up on the published research and NSAs promotional claims and it quickly became obvious that virtually all of the claims about the product were false or misleading. NSA has never offered a reasonable reply to the many facts that weigh against the product, which is not surprising because the only truthful reply would be to admit that the criticism is valid and that they have been willfully exploiting the public's trust.

As to your question about where I get my information, all of the JP research articles can be obtained through any decent university library, and one can learn about JP marketing by reviewing NSAs promotional materials, many of which are available on the internet. If I seem passionate, it is because it offends me deeply when self-interested liars argue against obvious facts and insist on pushing JP to seniors, cancer patients, pregnant women, and low-income families. Truth in advertising, especially health-related advertising, is something we all should be defending passionately.


----------



## laurabfig

I'm very thankful for this thread...it has saved me a TON of time in doing research about giving these vitamins to my children. I bought some at my pediatricians office from the homeopathic doctor there and just ran out. before i purchased them again, i decided to come on the boards and check out what other moms thought about them...wow! never realized i would see a conversation this complete!


----------



## Taradactyl3

How about some commentes from the ones who do take and believe in JP+? Seriously I'd like to hear what you think about my issues.

T


----------



## BWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Taradactyl3* 
How about some commentes from the ones who do take and believe in JP+? Seriously I'd like to hear what you think about my issues.

T

Hi there,

I have been taking Juice Plus for a couple of years now, and so has my husband and best friend. We all love it. But, we did get symptoms where we thought we were having reactions to Juice Plus too. We had a lot of gas, runny noses, cough, etc., for about two months or so. When I asked my distributor about it, she told me the same thing, that I was detoxing. I wondered about it too. Seemed kind of strange. I then found some other people through moms groups, etc., who said they had some similar symptoms and just stuck it out and the symptoms went away. We did the same thing, and I have to say that our symptoms went away too. And now we don't get sick at all. It sounded strange to me that a product could "detox" but after a few months when our symptoms went away we think that probably was what it was.

I have read all of the posts here, and the studies that showed reactions, etc., and it makes me wonder if maybe they were detoxing too, especially since I have found it to be the same with myself and DH.

I personally love Juice Plus and plan on taking it because it makes me feel good and I am not sick anymore (nothing else changed in my diet, etc., so it has to be the Juice Plus). Just my opinion.

Obviously there are some varying opinions on these boards. I guess my take is it does not hurt to try it. It is not that much money when you look at it. to me $39.75 a month to not be sick is better than what I was doing in the past, and the copays were MUCH more than that per month with doc visits, etc. There has to be something in Juice Plus that works. And it is cheaper than the other juices that are out there, so to me it is worth a shot.

Hope that helps to get the opinion of someone who takes it only and is happy with it. I don't really care about people who distribute it saying it is great and everyone should be on it and people like Brenda on here that say that no one should take it and that it is a waste of money. I am just happy that I found it and happy that I decided to give it a try. I had tried other things (almost eveything else out there pretty much) and something is different with Juice Plus.


----------



## Taradactyl3

Thanks so much BWife. I know you risk being flamed by posting that but the knowledge of your experience does help me.

T


----------



## BWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Taradactyl3* 
Thanks so much BWife. I know you risk being flamed by posting that but the knowledge of your experience does help me.

T

I know that I probably will have people say stuff about my post, but I don't care. I just wanted to point out that there are people out there that are taking Juice Plus and like it and we are not distributors! Hope you symptoms get better soon.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BWife* 
&#8230;our symptoms went away too. And now we don't get sick at all.

I personally love Juice Plus&#8230;and I am not sick anymore&#8230; it has to be the Juice Plus.

It is not that much money when you look at it&#8230;$39.75 a month to not be sick&#8230;There has to be something in Juice Plus that works.

It certainly is a fortuitous coincidence that Bwife found this forum and posted for the first time within a few hours after Taradactyl3 asked a question about Juice Plus and side effects.

We should all keep in mind the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? It would be truly wonderful if we could prevent and cure diseases with a sketchy vitamin pill that costs $40 a month, but that would clearly fall under the "extraordinary claims" category.

When someone posts an anonymous testimonial about an amazing disease cure, we have no way of knowing if their claim is true or their account is reliable, and even more skepticism is warranted when these testimonials are contradicted by well publicized facts and commonsense.

NSAs vitamin-fortified juice crystals (remember "Tang"?) in a capsule and being promoted as a cure for everything from the common cold to cancer (remember "snake oil"?). How could JP possibly cure diseases when it contains the equivalent of only a few grams of produce and some added isolated vitamins? How can its cost be justified when it contains only a dime or so worth of fruit and vegetables? Why should we trust the product when its ingredient amounts are not listed on the label and published studies have shown that it is deficient in many essential nutrients (i.e. fiber, potassium, various B-vitamins, minerals, etc.), while the amounts of other nutrients show unacceptable variability and poor absorption in the body?

Where is the extraordinary evidence of JPs effect on diseases? None of NSAs research showed that JP prevents diseases and NSA specifically states that no such claims are made about the product nor is it intended for such use. NSA even completed a study recently that showed that JP does not affect the incidence of illnesses or cold/flu symptoms (Nantz 2006).

NSAs detox story is a lame attempt to dismiss the side effects caused by JP. Their story makes no sense and there is no evidence to support it. Would we believe a pharmaceutical company if they simply told us, without providing evidence, that the side effects caused by a drug were not actually "side effects" but simply a manifestation of "detoxing"? Why should we show any less skepticism with NSAs claims, particularly when some of the executives (John Wise) of the company that manufactures JP (NAI) were previously involved in a vitamin supplement company (United Sciences of America) that was run out of business by the FDA for deceptive advertising, prohibited disease treatment claims, rigged research, and generally ripping off consumers? After the company's demise, Wise got involved with JP and went on to author most of the JP research studies. The association between Wise and JP is a serious cause for concern (one of many).


----------



## caedmyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
When someone posts an anonymous testimonial about an amazing disease cure, we have no way of knowing if their claim is true or their account is reliable, and even more skepticism is warranted when these testimonials are contradicted by well publicized facts and commonsense.

NSAs detox story is a lame attempt to dismiss the side effects caused by JP. Their story makes no sense and there is no evidence to support it. Would we believe a pharmaceutical company if they simply told us, without providing evidence, that the side effects caused by a drug were not actually "side effects" but simply a manifestation of "detoxing"? Why should we show any less skepticism with NSAs claims, particularly when some of the executives (John Wise) of the company that manufactures JP (NAI) were previously involved in a vitamin supplement company (United Sciences of America) that was run out of business by the FDA for deceptive advertising, prohibited disease treatment claims, rigged research, and generally ripping off consumers? After the company's demise, Wise got involved with JP and went on to author most of the JP research studies. The association between Wise and JP is a serious cause for concern (one of many).

OK, I am not defending Juice Plus here--I don't know much about it, have never tried it, and really have no interest one way or the other. But...there is such a thing as the placebo effect, which could very well explain Juice Plus's effectiveness for some people even if it scientifically or nutritionally "shouldn't" work. For those people it makes sense to continue taking it even if they have no idea how or why it is helping. Dr. Andrew Weil has some interesting information in one of his books about the placebo effect.

Also, the symptoms of detoxing/die-off and of reacting to something unfortunately tend to be the same or very similar, so in all fairness to Juice Plus, if people's "detox" symptoms with Juice Plus tend to be followed by positive health changes, I don't think they are out-of-line in referring to them as detox symptoms and not side-effects.


----------



## BWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
It certainly is a fortuitous coincidence that Bwife found this forum and posted for the first time within a few hours after Taradactyl3 asked a question about Juice Plus and side effects.

WOW, where did that come from? So, I came online to the MDC community because a friend told me about it. They have great info, etc. What a great group of moms and dads to help you to be healthy. So, I went online, applied for membership and because of the life I live went to the natural living area and saw a question on Juice Plus and read it, because I take it! Nothing more...............She had similar symptoms as I did and I thought I would post. Of course I knew it was "risky" to even post......but such is life.

I personally think it is "fortuitous" and interesting that you, Brenda, have about 50 posts on the MDC forums and all but 3 of them are on Juice Plus..................

I am not going to debate this. I was trying to help a fellow mother out with her concerns and told her what my experience was. I have better things to do with my life than debate Juice Plus pros and cons.........

Off to see what else has happened since I was last here...........................and then spend time with my family.............


----------



## Annikate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
NSAs vitamin-fortified juice crystals (remember "Tang"?) in a capsule and being promoted as a cure for everything from the common cold to cancer (remember "snake oil"?).

NSA?
Is this the NSA that is the Juice Plus company? Did NSA develop Tang back then and tout it as a *vitamin*? Is it really the same NSA that's putting out JP? I'm interested to know.


----------



## granolamomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
It certainly is a fortuitous coincidence that Bwife found this forum and posted for the first time within a few hours after Taradactyl3 asked a question about Juice Plus and side effects.


Wow. I agree with Bwife that this is out of line. You've presented interesting information that should be taken into consideration, but there's no need to get snarky. I don't think it really matters that much.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

To Granolamomma and BWife: Fair enough. apologies to all if it seemed snarky. I was struck by the coincidence but perhaps it did not warrant mentioning.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate* 
NSA? Is this the NSA that is the Juice Plus company? Did NSA develop Tang back then and tout it as a *vitamin*? Is it really the same NSA that's putting out JP? I'm interested to know.

Yes, NSA markets JP but no, they did not develop Tang (Tang was developed by General Foods and first marketed in 1959, according to Wikipedia). I was just drawing an analogy because Tang consisted of fruit-flavored crystals spiked with vitamins (and a ton of sugar), and it was marketed as the official drink of the US astronauts during the Apollo days. When I was a kid, people were really impressed by the marketing and many no doubt thought of Tang as being pretty darn close to "health food"&#8230;nutritional awareness back then wasn't quite at the level it is today.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn* 
But...there is such a thing as the placebo effect, which could very well explain Juice Plus's effectiveness for some people even if it scientifically or nutritionally "shouldn't" work. For those people it makes sense to continue taking it even if they have no idea how or why it is helping.

Caedmyn, the point you raised about JP acting as a placebo is very interesting. There is no doubt that JP marketing attempts to create, in essence, a placebo effect by strongly reinforcing unquestioning groupthink among distributors. NSA also recommends numerous follow-up phone calls and emails/letters to each customer after their initial purchase, with each precisely scripted contact geared towards reinforcing the health effects that the customer "should" be feeling while on JP.

If JP is an inert placebo then it would be unethical and illegal for anyone to promote it as a cure for anything. That would qualify it as snake oil -- essentially an inert product falsely represented, with messianic enthusiasm and lots of glowing testimonials, as a cure-all. And placebos should be dirt cheap but JP costs $500 or more per year.

The possibility that JP has a placebo effect seems unlikely because (a) there is no reliable evidence that JP improves health outcomes or offers any clinical benefits, and (b) there is actually experimental evidence that JP does not improve health outcomes (i.e. the NSA-sponsored double-blind, placebo-controlled study by Nantz published in 2006). Most of the health claims about JP seem to come from anonymous sources on the internet or people who sell the product, neither of which are reliable. If JP did have effects on disease outcomes that were being observed consistently by impartial health professionals, then these instances could easily be published in medical journals as well-documented case reports. But so far, the only knowledgeable and impartial sources that have commented on JP have been extremely critical.

It's also important to consider how testimonials can distort the perception of benefits. People who take JP and do not see improvements have little motivation to share their experiences, but for the small percentage of vocal distributors who seem to be making many of these health claims, there is a very clear financial motive. But JP obviously would not be a worthwhile investment for the average person if it had an effect in 1 out of 100 cases or if it routinely caused side effects. Second, even when someone honestly tells us that their disease or symptoms improved when they took JP, how do we know the true cause? Somebody knowledgeable and impartial would have to document these cases and look at medical histories, test results, absence of other plausible explanations, etc. That has never happened in the 10+ years JP has been on the market. There is also obviously a strong financial motive for someone who has a financial interest in JP to exaggerate or even lie about its benefits.

Let's also consider one last thing about placebos. Placebo effects, by and large, act on factors that are subjective, like pain, energy levels, comfort, etc. So a placebo effect might cause someone to report feeling less pain or more energy, but placebo effects won't make tumors disappear, prevent birth defects, or repair arthritic bones, and these are the types of claims that are being made about JP. If JPs only value is as a placebo, it should not be promoted as a cure-all for diseases or offered as an all-purpose supplement for kids and pregnant women. I also see no value in haiving a brigade of misinformed and financially motivated faith healers administering questionable advice and exorbitantly priced placebos to those who are ailing and in genuine need of help.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn* 
Also, the symptoms of detoxing/die-off and of reacting to something unfortunately tend to be the same or very similar, so in all fairness to Juice Plus, if people's "detox" symptoms with Juice Plus tend to be followed by positive health changes, I don't think they are out-of-line in referring to them as detox symptoms and not side-effects.

The detox story gets pretty muddy if we choose to believe that JP acts by a placebo effect. Would the explanation then be that JP causes a placebo-induced detoxifying effect? That's seems pretty implausible.


----------



## caedmyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 

Let's also consider one last thing about placebos. Placebo effects, by and large, act on factors that are subjective, like pain, energy levels, comfort, etc. So a placebo effect might cause someone to report feeling less pain or more energy, but placebo effects won't make tumors disappear, prevent birth defects, or repair arthritic bones, and these are the types of claims that are being made about JP. If JPs only value is as a placebo, it should not be promoted as a cure-all for diseases or offered as an all-purpose supplement for kids and pregnant women. I also see no value in haiving a brigade of misinformed and financially motivated faith healers administering questionable advice and exorbitantly priced placebos to those who are ailing and in genuine need of help.

The detox story gets pretty muddy if we choose to believe that JP acts by a placebo effect. Would the explanation then be that JP causes a placebo-induced detoxifying effect? That's seems pretty implausible.

That's not true that placebo effect only affects things that are subjective--read Andrew Weil's book (sorry I can't remember which one...it might be called Health and Healing or something like that).

I'm not saying it has a placebo effect on everyone, but for those people on whom it could/does, it is worth it to them to pay for it. Obviously it's not a good idea for NSA to be marketing Juice Plus if it doesn't truly do anything for the majority of people...but then, what do most vitamins do for people, anyway (the ones that come in a bottle). It's not any more unethical for NSA to market their product that it is for anyone else...just more expensive!

And I do think it is possible for there to be a placebo-induced detoxifying effect. I think it's also possible that Juice Plus really does do something, at least some of the time, no matter how improbable that may seem.


----------



## Valkyrie9

This is a great thread--I was just invited to a JP party (or whatever you call it) and came up with Barrett's article through a Google search. I didn't realize he was such an unreliable source. Anyway, one of the things he mentioned and that I haven't seen referenced here was that JP has extremely high levels of beta carotene, which has been shown to have a damaging effect on DNA and can lead to cancer. Any thoughts on that one or more research to back it up?

After reading that, I was shocked and dismayed to find that Dr. Sears was recommending it. I bring this all up because if the stuff about high levels of beta carotene isn't true, it would redeem Sears a bit for me. TIA!


----------



## granolamomma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
To Granolamomma and BWife: Fair enough. apologies to all if it seemed snarky. I was struck by the coincidence but perhaps it did not warrant mentioning.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valkyrie9*
This is a great thread--I was just invited to a JP party (or whatever you call it) and came up with Barrett's article through a Google search. I didn't realize he was such an unreliable source. Anyway, one of the things he mentioned and that I haven't seen referenced here was that JP has extremely high levels of beta carotene, which has been shown to have a damaging effect on DNA and can lead to cancer. Any thoughts on that one or more research to back it up?

After reading that, I was shocked and dismayed to find that Dr. Sears was recommending it. I bring this all up because if the stuff about high levels of beta carotene isn't true, it would redeem Sears a bit for me. TIA!

Yeah, I thought the same thing about Dr. Sears. But then I remembered that I am against vaccines in general, but he is ok with a selectively delayed schedule. So, I think he's still a great doctor, I just feel differently for my family, kwim?

And I think maybe the whole beta carotene thing was discussed really intensively a few pages back (but I could be thinking of some other vitamin - I haven't reread). All I know is that as strongly as I feel about vaccines, it doesn't compare to my utter loathing of Barrett. So if I had to pick an expert here, I'd go with the Sears everyday and twice on Sunday.

Just my even-tempered 2 cents.


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valkyrie9* 
This is a great thread--I was just invited to a JP party (or whatever you call it) and came up with Barrett's article through a Google search. I didn't realize he was such an unreliable source. Anyway, one of the things he mentioned and that I haven't seen referenced here was that JP has extremely high levels of beta carotene, which has been shown to have a damaging effect on DNA and can lead to cancer. Any thoughts on that one or more research to back it up?

The basic JP regimen provides 2.6 times the recommended daily intake of beta-carotene but many customers are also advised to take additional JP supplements, like Vineyard blend, and sometimes to double or triple their dose. The gummies provide kids with more than 5 times the recommended beta-carotene intake for adults. There have been several studies to show that beta-carotene supplementation can increase the rates of certain cancers, for example in cigarette smokers (J Natl Cancer Inst. 2004;96:1743-50). NSA indirectly refers to such data as the reason why isolated vitamins are bad for us, and yet their product contains isolated vitamins.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valkyrie9* 
After reading that, I was shocked and dismayed to find that Dr. Sears was recommending it. I bring this all up because if the stuff about high levels of beta carotene isn't true, it would redeem Sears a bit for me. TIA!

It is true...so no redemption for Sears. He's going to hell instead! Sears was only too happy to profit from his recommendation that JP gummies are a nutritional alternative to fruits and vegetables for kids, which landed him in hot water with the Better Business Bureau.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/p...-106/index.htm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caedmyn* 
Obviously it's not a good idea for NSA to be marketing Juice Plus if it doesn't truly do anything for the majority of people...but then, what do most vitamins do for people, anyway (the ones that come in a bottle). It's not any more unethical for NSA to market their product that it is for anyone else...just more expensive!

I disagree. A big difference is that the vast majority of multivitamin supplement makers only claim that their products provide nutrients, they don't claim that it can cure cancer or other diseases. NSAs selling of inert placebos at a ridiculously high price to cancer patients clearly crosses the ethical (and legal) line. Is it really so too much to ask that those who sell JP use a modicum of honesty and integrity, or at least respect the law?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *granolamomma* 
So if I had to pick an expert here, I'd go with the Sears everyday and twice on Sunday.

This isn't a batlle between the reputations of Barrett vs. Sears? Sears' opponents on this issue include Memorial Sloan-Kettering, University of California Berkeley, Moore Cancer Center/University of California San Diego, the Better Business Bureau, various other experts, and commonsense.


----------



## Panserbjorne

While I haven't spent nearly the amount of time that Brenda has researching this, from the reading I have done I have to say that I am in total agreement. To me the company appeared unethical (and remember here, I *used* to sell JP until I realized I was getting the runaround with every real question I asked.) I disagree with Sears on many things, but it isn't at all about Sears vs. Barrett. As Brenda said there have been major studies published refuting JP's claims. It is interesting how hard they push their products. I don't see many other supplement companies going to that extreme.


----------



## Taradactyl3

Kind of OT but....My DH was raised on tang instead of formula. His mom choose not to BF and when DH had a bad reaction to the formula her PED suggested Tang. Can you believe that they gave him tang in bottles as a baby!?!?! I know it was the 70's but it still seems insane to think that is ok. Luckily it didn't do much damage that we know of.

T


----------



## BWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
It is interesting how hard they push their products. I don't see many other supplement companies going to that extreme.

Wow, you must not live where I do!







I have people all the time recommending Pharmanex, Herbal Life, Nature's Sunshine, Body Balance, Mona Vie, Gogi Juice, Noni Juice, and more, and I have tried many of them. In my experience many of them are much more pushy than the Juice Plus distributor I deal with. I realize there is a question as to the validity of the research, etc., but there is no research on the above either, yet they are claiming miracles from it all, so I say let's all just decide what we want to take for ourselves and let it rest. Everyone choose what they want to take and then go from there...........................

And I went to a presentation in a home for Juice Plus and found it very interesting. They even played a DVD from Dr. Sears, something on healthy steps, and 8 of those steps were on healthy eating tips and the last one was Juice Plus. I was already taking Juice Plus, but I actually learned some neat stuff when I went. I don't see the harm in going...........


----------



## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BWife* 
I realize there is a question as to the validity of the research, etc., but there is no research on the above either, yet they are claiming miracles from it all, so I say let's all just decide what we want to take for ourselves and let it rest. Everyone choose what they want to take and then go from there"

Better still, why don't we just acknowledge that any company that claims miraculous cures in the absence of evidence (or in the face of contradictory evidence) is dishonest, unethical, and violating the law &#8230;and then go from there.


----------



## Annikate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Better still, why don't we just acknowledge that any company that claims miraculous cures in the absence of evidence (or in the face of contradictory evidence) is dishonest, unethical, and violating the law &#8230;and then go from there.

FWIW the distributors I know (2) are always careful to say that JP does *not* claim to cure anything. I don't think their dist's are encouraged to make false claims.

Firefaery, you can correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Sydnee

Wow! So much info here, thanks for all the links, I am very interested in this stuff, but hadn't really looked into it yet. I do think, however, that we can go on and on about how much we love/hate it,(*it* being JP







) but ultimately we all make decisions that are best for our families, kwim? We all have very differing opinions, and that's what makes MDC so great!!


----------



## Panserbjorne

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annikate* 
FWIW the distributors I know (2) are always careful to say that JP does *not* claim to cure anything. I don't think their dist's are encouraged to make false claims.

Firefaery, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

It's a slippery slope. I was "urged" to get my mother taking it because she has leukemia and JP just does wonders for cancer patients-improving their outcomes etc. etc. etc. That was the beginning of the end for me. I don't think their dist are encouraged to make false claims, but they are urged to regurgitate the company's propoganda. Alot of which is false. Slipperly slope.

Wow-I sure don't get solicited by other companies like that! I wouldn't mind the goji and noni juices because they are at least unprocessed derivatives of actual foods extracted from the berries. They are superfoods. Other formulations I would not be keen on at all. The interesting thing about JP is how many health care providers have jumped on board given that it is a MLM. I wouldn't expect my chiro/ND/MD/FCP etc. to be a part of that. It's all very weird. Most products stocked by practitioners are simply the best of the best as far as they are concerned. Not a pyramid type deal. Strange.


----------



## Annikate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
The interesting thing about JP is how many health care providers have jumped on board given that it is a MLM. I wouldn't expect my chiro/ND/MD/FCP etc. to be a part of that. It's all very weird. Most products stocked by practitioners are simply the best of the best as far as they are concerned. Not a pyramid type deal. Strange.

Yep, same w/ the Waiora products.


----------



## Panserbjorne

That's true. It weirds me out. To be fair I have never heard of someone having Waoira products sold to them around here. I know people have had it suggested but for me the dif is that you can idependantly go and buy NCD without a dist. Yes, you can become one (and I did just to buy it at a disc.) but Waoira isn't a hard sell thing-at least not IME. I had suggested by a third party with no stakes in it. I reasearched and went and bought it. It feels very different because I wasn't being "sold", YK? But who knows, JP's been around for awhile so maybe Waoira is on the same path.

What I CAN say is that I saw a differnce on NCD that nobody could deny because it was very physical (the detox) and nothing in the months and months I took JP-but that's just a personal account. I don't regret buying NCD. I am sad at the $ I spent on JP.


----------



## Annikate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
That's true. It weirds me out. To be fair I have never heard of someone having Waoira products sold to them around here. I know people have had it suggested but for me the dif is that you can idependantly go and buy NCD without a dist. Yes, you can become one (and I did just to buy it at a disc.) but Waoira isn't a hard sell thing-at least not IME. I had suggested by a third party with no stakes in it. I reasearched and went and bought it. It feels very different because I wasn't being "sold", YK? But who knows, JP's been around for awhile so maybe Waoira is on the same path.

What I CAN say is that I saw a differnce on NCD that nobody could deny because it was very physical (the detox) and nothing in the months and months I took JP-but that's just a personal account. I don't regret buying NCD. I am sad at the $ I spent on JP.

True, and I agree about the NCD.


----------



## granolamomma

Whoops, I must have misrepresented myself. I don't think Sears and Barrett are the end-all experts here. I think I was just trying to give an example of how much I discredit anything that is sourced from Barrett - that I'd pick a source that I disagree with strongly (i.e., Sears and vaccines) just because they are not Barrett.

Really, it was me complicating a simple anti-Barrett sentence.









Carry on with the discussion - great info everyone!


----------



## chellemarie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firefaery* 
It's a slippery slope. I was "urged" to get my mother taking it because she has leukemia and JP just does wonders for cancer patients-improving their outcomes etc. etc. etc. That was the beginning of the end for me. I don't think their dist are encouraged to make false claims, but they are urged to regurgitate the company's propoganda. Alot of which is false. Slipperly slope.

My former distributor didn't necessarily tell me that "This cures cancer." or "This is the answer to Crohn's." She (and her mentor/recruiter) said things like this:

"Do you see this Happy Meal? I have had this bag for five years. Look at the fries! They're not rotting! They look just like they did when I bought them. Isn't that amazing? Can you imagine what they put in the fries that keep them looking this way? Why would we put this in our bodies when we can eat fresh, colorful fruits and vegetables. Juice Plus has seventeen fruits and veggies..."

That's not a straight line. But it sounds good.

"This packet of sugar equals X grams of sugar. This soda has Y grams of sugar. That is (dramatic unrolling of a line of sugar packets) THIS many packets of sugar. You're drinking all that sugar every time you have this soda."

So I should buy dehydrated produce pills? No. I shouldn't drink the soda. But look! She can convert ingredient lists into an actual number of sugar packets. This lady knows her business. I should buy her product. And I did.

I've also heard, "Another distributor knows this gal who diagnosed with cancer. She made the decision to change her lifestyle and started eating fresh, organic foods and eliminated all the junk from her diet. She's taking Juice Plus and now she's in remission. No more cancer."

Huh.

And..."I heard about this little girl. She has XYZ health concerns. I want to talk to her parents because I think it is just so important for her to get the nutrition ...I think Juice Plus can help her."

But if it is what it says it is, it's fruits and veggies, right? Why aren't you taking her a salad and a fruit basket? It just seems weird. We all want to believe that this pill is the key. This is easy! Two pills in the morning, two pills at night, all done! That'll be forty bucks, please.


----------



## Annikate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
My former distributor didn't necessarily tell me that "This cures cancer." or "This is the answer to Crohn's." She (and her mentor/recruiter) said things like this:

"Do you see this Happy Meal? I have had this bag for five years. Look at the fries! They're not rotting! They look just like they did when I bought them. Isn't that amazing? Can you imagine what they put in the fries that keep them looking this way? Why would we put this in our bodies when we can eat fresh, colorful fruits and vegetables. Juice Plus has seventeen fruits and veggies..."

That's not a straight line. But it sounds good.

"This packet of sugar equals X grams of sugar. This soda has Y grams of sugar. That is (dramatic unrolling of a line of sugar packets) THIS many packets of sugar. You're drinking all that sugar every time you have this soda."

So I should buy dehydrated produce pills? No. I shouldn't drink the soda. But look! She can convert ingredient lists into an actual number of sugar packets. This lady knows her business. I should buy her product. And I did.

I've also heard, "Another distributor knows this gal who diagnosed with cancer. She made the decision to change her lifestyle and started eating fresh, organic foods and eliminated all the junk from her diet. She's taking Juice Plus and now she's in remission. No more cancer."

Huh.

And..."I heard about this little girl. She has XYZ health concerns. I want to talk to her parents because I think it is just so important for her to get the nutrition ...I think Juice Plus can help her."

But if it is what it says it is, it's fruits and veggies, right? Why aren't you taking her a salad and a fruit basket? It just seems weird. We all want to believe that this pill is the key. This is easy! Two pills in the morning, two pills at night, all done! That'll be forty bucks, please.

I'm not either for or against JP (yet) but this just made me







.

Very well put.


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## Taradactyl3

What is NCD?


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## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Taradactyl3* 
What is NCD?

It's a Waioria product called Natural Cellular Defense. That's all I know about it and have not evaluated the product or any of its claims. If anyone knows more about it, perhaps they can start a new thread to discuss it...not here though please, we already have our hands full with JP


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## Annikate

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Taradactyl3* 
What is NCD?

Zeolite (NCD) Thread


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## BWife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
Better still, why don't we just acknowledge that any company that claims miraculous cures in the absence of evidence (or in the face of contradictory evidence) is dishonest, unethical, and violating the law &#8230;and then go from there.

Just to be sure I was clear, the only products that I have been "pitched on" that don't claim cures out of those were Nature's Sunshine and Juice Plus. Apparently some of the people selling Juice Plus don't follow the rule of not saying anything about cures though................


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## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BWife* 
Just to be sure I was clear, the only products that I have been "pitched on" that don't claim cures out of those were Nature's Sunshine and Juice Plus. Apparently some of the people selling Juice Plus don't follow the rule of not saying anything about cures though................

It seems to me that disease prevention and treatment claims are at the core of Juice Plus marketing, and it's not just the distributors that are doing it. Much of the drive to market Juice Plus using treatment/prevention claims (implied or explicit) stems directly from NSA. And regardless, the distributors are agents of NSA and it is NSAs legal responsibility to ensure that their representatives do not make illicit claims. And yet NSA seems to encourage such abuses, or at least does nothing to curb them. If NSA can't or won't control the claims that distributors make, then that is a very serious problem -- one that reflects badly on all those involved with the product.

I have seen claims made about Juice Plus for cancer, lupus, ADHD, multiple sclerosis, colds/flu, fibromyalgia, birth complications, arthritis, asthma, hypercholesterolemia, hypertension, allergies, and many other conditions. One doesn't have to look very far for such evidence; a few hours searching on the internet turns up dozens of examples, and it is safe to guess that the claims being made offline are much more flagrant. If this product were being promoted honestly and fairly, then NSA would not focus their marketing so much on cancer and degenerative diseases. A nutritional supplement such as Juice Plus should be marketed simply as a source of nutrients, not a wonder-drug that can cure every disease known to mankind.


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## Janelovesmax

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brenda Damachuk* 
It's a Waioria product called Natural Cellular Defense. That's all I know about it and have not evaluated the product or any of its claims. If anyone knows more about it, perhaps they can start a new thread to discuss it...not here though please, we already have our hands full with JP









The best product I came across ever. Highly highly recommend it.


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## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
I was skeptical at first too!!!







My pediatrician recommended it first when I switched to him about a year and a half ago. I said no, no again, and then we finally tried it after I did some research. Now I'm a believer!! We've been taking it for more than a year and I just signed up to be a distributor. I also wrote a review of the product at Bella:

Product Review: Juice Plus
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art36465.asp

It's interesting that the positive Juice Plus review written by apmommy76 (Jan) at bellaonline.com has been pulled. I am curious to know what prompted the article's removal.

The original article that was posted can be found as a cached copy here.

Perhaps the article was deleted because of negative feedback. Those comments have also been deleted but are available as a cached copy here.


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## guestmama9924

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whateverdidiwants* 
My PCP tried to push Juice Plus on me and after I did research I decided that it was a waste of money for me. I eat a healthy vegan diet and have perfect bloodwork, and there is nothing in the capsules that isn't already in my diet. Also, they aren't vegan - they use beef gelatin for their capsules.

Same here! but that is because he, like anyone else who talks about it that I know, SELLS IT. Just like a doctor giving the rap that the bigpharma rep gives him about a drug. Dr Sears sells it too. Juice plus may be wonderful, but I steer clear from MLM and hyped products because there is too much room for dishonesty.


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## trinimommy

Wow...very interesting thread.

Juice Plus was recommended to me by my midwife for myself as well as my pediatrician ...

I have seen some of the info and it sounds good...

But for the naysayers...what vitamin supplement do you recommend or prefer over Juice Plus? I see folks saying they can just use the money to buy fruit...but how much fruit are you getting for under $1.50/day. I went to the veggie and fruit stand the other day and I think an apple alone was about $1.50...1 apple...lol...prices of everything are crazy right now.

Quite honestly I have not tried the Juice plus due to cost...I had to do Floradix iron supp during my pregnancy and that was expensive enough...so I have been just taking regular prenatals that I can get with a copay and I get my daughter over the counter vitamins.

This thread would have been so much more productive with suggestions of alternatives instead of the battle of who's research is right...


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## greeny

Quote:

But for the naysayers...what vitamin supplement do you recommend or prefer over Juice Plus? I see folks saying they can just use the money to buy fruit...but how much fruit are you getting for under $1.50/day. I went to the veggie and fruit stand the other day and I think an apple alone was about $1.50...1 apple...lol...prices of everything are crazy right now.
Well I think that Juice Plus isn't designed to be taken instead of fruit/veggies, but in addition to them. Even the company itself, I believe, doesn't recommend it as a replacement.

I would personally recommend not buying Juice Plus but instead buying as much fresh fruit and veggies as possible.

Brenda, I found your posts very enlightening and interesting.


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## Panserbjorne

prices of everything ARE crazy, but you have to understand that JP is a SUPPLEMENT. You are not replacing your veggies and fruit with it, just adding it in addition to. So you are still spending all that $ on fruit, and then buying a supplement which is being shot down left and right for their false claims. The biggest one for me being that it is "unfragmented." Can't tell you how many times I called the company and got no good answer on that one.

I have made many posts about what I do use. I use plenty of fresh fruit and veggies, as well as a green foods powder like Vitamineral Green or Nature's First Food. I put it in my kids smoothies along with freshly juiced greens. I also do a B supplement occasionally. CLO for A and D, and sometimes I'll do sea minerals with silver. I also enjoy my NaturalCalm.


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## Brenda Damachuk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinimommy* 
I see folks saying they can just use the money to buy fruit...but how much fruit are you getting for under $1.50/day. I went to the veggie and fruit stand the other day and I think an apple alone was about $1.50...1 apple...lol...prices of everything are crazy right now.

Right, so if an apple costs $1.50/day and Juice Plus costs $1.37/day, how much fruit/veg do you think could possibly go into making Juice Plus? Obviously a lot less than an apple's worth. Even if the apples were bought at wholesale prices, the supplier markups, costs for manufacturing/packaging/marketing/distribution, and profit margins would have to be factored in. So what could you possibly be getting from Juice Plus for your $1.37/day? A teaspoon of dried apple juice?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinimommy* 
But for the naysayers...what vitamin supplement do you recommend or prefer over Juice Plus?...

This thread would have been so much more productive with suggestions of alternatives instead of the battle of who's research is right...

I have to admit, I don't like being referred to as a "naysayer". Sharing facts and calling a spade a spade is not naysaying; it's just rational/logical thinking.

There are many reasonable alternatives to Juice Plus. You can get a good complete multivitamin for under 5 to 8 cents a day (check Vons.com). If you are looking for something other than a traditional multivitamin, Jarrows makes an excellent green food supplement, and GNC makes some decent looking mixed fruit/veg supplements as well. There are also lot's of inexpensive encapsulated whole fruit extracts like cherry, bilberrry, pomegranate, cranberry; as well as other types of natural antioxidant supplements like green tea extract.

All of these products are available through conventional retail for a fraction of the cost of Juice Plus and are much better value, all things considered. They all provide a complete list of ingredients and amounts (unlike Juice Plus). And lastly, they aren't sold by con artists who make ridiculous claims about preventing and curing diseases (like Juice Plus).

Who knows if any of these products have real benefits, but at least they are better value and more honestly marketed than Juice Plus; and there are probably many other examples.

Here's an interesting article on choosing multivitamins. It was written in 2000 but it still applies today.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._61352966/pg_1


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