# Need help with school bus carseats!! **UPDATED #28 and 30. Issue resolved.



## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

**x-posted in Special needs parenting**

My 2.5 year old son attends a special needs school for therapy. They provide transportation on a full-sized school bus. I had to provide height and weight on my child as part of the registration paperwork. I asked about carseats when I met with his teacher and therapists, they said that transportation is very accustomed to these kids, and would provide appropriate seats.

Not so.

The carseats on the bus are integrated into the seat, and are a 5-point harness. I put my son on the bus, buckled him in, and then went to tighten the harness, and it does not tighten near enough. I asked the aide how to tighten it, and she said "no, that's good, you don't want to choke him." Um, yes, you almost do!! I said "no, this isn't good, let's try a different seat." I tried four more seats, none of them tightened. The driver came to look and said "no, that's good, that's how it's supposed to fit." NO, it's NOT!

<<By the way, my son is *tiny*, weighes 23 pounds and is 32 inches tall>>

So I called the transportation office. They said they have special seats and would look into getting one for him. I didn't hear back, didn't hear back. So I called back this mornign left a message, then called back again this afternoon. Apparently the supervisor spoke to the driver, who said the seat is fine, then the supervisor spoke to the school nurse who said that there's no medical reason why my son needs a different seat, so the supervisor decided to just drop the issue. WITHOUT EVER TELLING ME.

I made it VERY clear that I'm angry about this, told him that I don't CARE what the driver thinks, I KNOW what the recommendations are for carseats, and I'm INSISTING that they provide my son with a sufficient carseat.

Right now the supervisor is planning on coming to my house Monday morning (no school on Fridays) and seeing for himself how my son fits in the seat. But I got the distinct impression that he has no clue and is probably going to say that the seat fits fine.

What's my recourse here? This is a state program my son is in through Early Intervention Services, so it's not a private school. He has documented special needs, but they're all medical/developmental, none are physical (except his height/weight).

I contacted the fire dept, a very helpful lady is preparing a packet for me on carseat safety specifically for special needs kids. I mean, based on height/weight alone, my son should be rear facing, definitely not forward facing with straps way too loose!! Can I insist that they provide him with a better seat? Does the law support me here?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The recommendations for full size buses are different than the recommendations for cars.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

nak-ing a fussy baby right now but yes they are legally obligated to provide an *appropriate* restraint. Obviously what they have does not work for your son, so they need to work with you to find something that does.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Can you provide a seat that fits him that they keep and use on the bus?

How far do you live from school? Could you drive him if you can't come to an agreement on a seat?


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
nak-ing a fussy baby right now but yes they are legally obligated to provide an *appropriate* restraint. Obviously what they have does not work for your son, so they need to work with you to find something that does.

Do you know where I can find this in writing? I'm in Ohio, I don't know if the laws vary by state. Can I perhaps enforce IDEA on them (Individual's with Disabilities in Education Act)??

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
Can you provide a seat that fits him that they keep and use on the bus?

How far do you live from school? Could you drive him if you can't come to an agreement on a seat?

I will gladly provide a seat, but I don't know if the bus is equipped to handle one. It's something I'm going to offer as an alternative.

Unfortunately I can't drive him because I WOH, he is home with a nanny who puts him on the bus. We do give her carseats for her car, so she is capable of driving, and I guess worst case scenario is we ask her to do that (school is about 20 minutes away) and refund her mileage. But it shouldn't come to that.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I think IDEA is where you would start.

Technically, a forward-facing seat is considered appropriate under the law (though not ideal from a safety perspective!), but I agree that you need to make sure the seat fits him and can be properly tightened.

Busses made after a certain year (which I am drawing a blank but will try to find for you) should have two sets of lower anchors so should be able to accommodate a regular carseat.

Edit: I think only small busses have that requirement. Sorry!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Right, it's not appropriate if it does not fit the child.

OP, let me dig out my SN training manual, it has lots of links


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

A carseat does not need to 'almost choke a child' in order to fit properly.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasciate* 
A carseat does not need to 'almost choke a child' in order to fit properly.

I believe the OP meant that as tongue-in-cheek, I don't think she was really going to choke her child with a car seat


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

How did it go this morning?


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2boyzmama* 
Can I perhaps enforce IDEA on them (Individual's with Disabilities in Education Act)??

Unfortunately I can't drive him because I WOH, he is home with a nanny who puts him on the bus. We do give her carseats for her car, so she is capable of driving, and I guess worst case scenario is we ask her to do that (school is about 20 minutes away) and refund her mileage. But it shouldn't come to that.

I have not looked up the official state law, but I always assumed the state had the responsibility to provide a free and appropriate education to all kids ages 5-18. If they do an Early Start program or some kind of early intervention, I think that is really nice - but some districts cannot afford some of the actual basics for kids in the ages they are required to serve.

Making the district take on transportation when your nanny could take him (and I was a nanny for five years - did a lot of driving to preschool, gymnastics, etc) seems out of line to me, honestly. The district is providing free services to your two year old. To me, the least you can do is have your nanny drive him if you don't like the car seats on the district bus.

I find it interesting that our nation seems to be moving toward how the government owes us this and owes us that but when they get in our business about vaccinating our kids, we get irate. Do we want the government to be in charge of (and pay for) stuff OUR kids need, or do we not? I just don't understand how we can stand on both sides of that line.

I'd accept the free early intervention but have the nanny drive him.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Some early intervention programs require that the child take the bus.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I have not looked up the official state law, but I always assumed the state had the responsibility to provide a free and appropriate education to all kids ages 5-18. If they do an Early Start program or some kind of early intervention, I think that is really nice - but some districts cannot afford some of the actual basics for kids in the ages they are required to serve.

Making the district take on transportation when your nanny could take him (and I was a nanny for five years - did a lot of driving to preschool, gymnastics, etc) seems out of line to me, honestly. The district is providing free services to your two year old. To me, the least you can do is have your nanny drive him if you don't like the car seats on the district bus.

I find it interesting that our nation seems to be moving toward how the government owes us this and owes us that but when they get in our business about vaccinating our kids, we get irate. Do we want the government to be in charge of (and pay for) stuff OUR kids need, or do we not? I just don't understand how we can stand on both sides of that line.

I'd accept the free early intervention but have the nanny drive him.

This is not a program through public schools, this is the state Early Intervention program that my son qualifies for as a child with a disability under the Federal LAW, it's not a nicety that they're doing this. The LAW requires that Early Intervention provide transportation, I'm only requesting that the transportation they provide be SAFE.

I absolutely am not taking the attitude that the Government owes me something, this is ABSOLUTELY different than me taking advantage of free school lunches or welfare-type services, for example (I am using this only as an example to prove that my son was BORN with this vs life circumstances leading to this as is sometimes the case in welfare-system abuse), my son is disabled and in this country we take care of our disabled citizens. Comparing the LAW to provide adequate education and therapy services to disabled citizen to the Government getting involved in vaccinating our children is not a fair comparison at all. The education law is actually written so that the ONLY transportation any school district is required to provide is for special needs children on an IEP, any child attending public school that rides the bus is taking advantage of a free service that they are not required to provide.

If programs like this did not exist for children like mine, families like mine would have to choose between paying our necessary bills (mortgage, food, utilities) and paying for his exceptional medical care and therapies. I am not asking the Government to pay for my kid's clothing, food etc. If he receives these services NOW as a toddler, it has been proven over and over that he will require less assistance as an adult, and in the case of his syndrome, may even be able to be a productive tax-paying member of society as an adult. Without services now, he will cost society MORE money as an adult.

I don't appreciate having to justify my choice to accept services for my disabled child, and to ask that those services be SAFE for him. Life with a special needs child is not what any of us special needs parents ask for, we just try to do the best we can.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I am wondering if the laws and regulations around car seats on buses are going to back up the bus driver. I can take ds on a bus without any kind of restraint. I just take him on the bus, I either hold him in my lap, in an ergo, or occasionally let me sit in the seat. Its totally legal because buses are built differently than cars and safer etc.

Because of that I wonder if the car seats on the bus are simply to keep the kid from getting up and walking around or sliding onto the floor and are not in fact suppose to fit like car seats in a *car*


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I believe the OP meant that as tongue-in-cheek, I don't think she was really going to choke her child with a car seat









Yes, I didn't mean that literally of course, but for harnesses to be tight enough to not be able to pinch webbing, it is awfully tight. The only way it would "choke" him, though, is if I didn't adjust the placement of the harness clip

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
How did it go this morning?

It's Monday morning when the route supervisor is going to be at my house to see for himself how Connor fits (or rather doesn't fit) into the harness. The program is 4 days a week, so there's no school today.

I'll post on Monday to tell you how it went.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I am wondering if the laws and regulations around car seats on buses are going to back up the bus driver. I can take ds on a bus without any kind of restraint. I just take him on the bus, I either hold him in my lap, in an ergo, or occasionally let me sit in the seat. Its totally legal because buses are built differently than cars and safer etc.

Because of that I wonder if the car seats on the bus are simply to keep the kid from getting up and walking around or sliding onto the floor and are not in fact suppose to fit like car seats in a *car*

You might be right for children who aren't special needs, but I believe the way the law is written, they are required to provide safe and adequate transportation for special needs children. I just don't know that "safe" is defined anywhere.

You're right that for public transportation, though, they aren't required to provide any kind of restraint.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I find it interesting that our nation seems to be moving toward how the government owes us this and owes us that but when they get in our business about vaccinating our kids, we get irate. Do we want the government to be in charge of (and pay for) stuff OUR kids need, or do we not? I just don't understand how we can stand on both sides of that line.


I have to admit that I'm still really upset at the accusation in this post, and I really just hope that me being 39 weeks pregnant and hormonal is attributing to me perhaps taking more offense than what was intended.

I'd like to point out that it's different because in this case, the Government is not trying to take away or otherwise impose on rights, as can be suggested in the case of birth rights, breastfeeding rights, vaccines, choice in education, etc etc etc.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Well, maybe it's because I'm 37 weeks pregnant, sick of puking since February, sleep deprived from a night in the ER with a not breathing child, and in a lot of pain (wah wah wah), but I see it too, and was offended myself. I don't even have a SN child.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2boyzmama* 
I have to admit that I'm still really upset at the accusation in this post, and I really just hope that me being 39 weeks pregnant and hormonal is attributing to me perhaps taking more offense than what was intended.

I'd like to point out that it's different because in this case, the Government is not trying to take away or otherwise impose on rights, as can be suggested in the case of birth rights, breastfeeding rights, vaccines, choice in education, etc etc etc.

I think that person was mistakenly inserting her political beliefs into an unrelated thread about your child's safety.

FWIW, I think she is wrong. I also have a child who is special needs and receives services. This was a particular battle I fought, although as a SAHM I was able to circumvent the problem by driving him myself for a while. After that I went through a year long battle with the school system when they were transporting kids via backless boosters in lap belts only. So I know what you're going through.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm sure they're required to provide "safe" transportation... I don't know the current definition of how to keep a child of your child's age and size properly restrained in a bus









good luck!

-Angela


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I wonder if the purpose of the harness on the bus is to keep the child seated, rather than to restrain in a crash (maybe relying on compartmentalization to do that?) In that case, a looser harness might meet the purpose they have for them. Just thinking aloud. But I hope you find a solution to safely transport your ds. And FTR, that poster irritated me too, I thought that was rude.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

Thank you everyone, I'll let you know how it goes on Monday


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
I wonder if the purpose of the harness on the bus is to keep the child seated, rather than to restrain in a crash (maybe relying on compartmentalization to do that?) In that case, a looser harness might meet the purpose they have for them. Just thinking aloud. But I hope you find a solution to safely transport your ds. And FTR, that poster irritated me too, I thought that was rude.


Compartmentalization is only effective for older children (48", 50 pounds). It does not work on babies and young, small children.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Depending on the outcome, I would be looking to contact a special needs certified technician to help you (and the district) come up with a solution. I believe that they are legally obligated to safely transport children under 5 in appropriate restraints. Here is a link with the laws http://www.stnonline.com/stn/special...federalaws.htm


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Compartmentalization is only effective for older children (48", 50 pounds). It does not work on babies and young, small children.

That's really good to know- do you have a link showing this? I bet it would be useful for the OP.

Also, I can't help but think- what about my K aged daughter? If she were in K she could easily be riding a bus and she's 42" and 38lbs....

-Angela


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

2boyzmama, I would like to apologize as my comments came across in a way other than what I intended. I do not think you are taking advantage of the system at all! I did not know that the state by law is required to provide early intervention and transportation; I was under the impression that it was something that school districts decided.

The more appropriate place for me to ponder the "where is the line and how do we draw it" regarding when we accept government help and if that somehow gives them an "in" to our parenting decisions was in a spinoff thread - which would have been a good idea had I thought of it before responding here...









My dd1 and dd2 were in an alternative public elementary for five years. Because it was an option to have your kids there, the school district didn't provide to those 90 kids everything that was provided to the other kids in the district's "regular" elementaries. Some years we had no transportation at all; parents had to drive if they wanted their kids there. We paid the same taxes as the parents at the other public schools but got no transportation for our kids. We had no special services. If your child required that, they were moved to one of the main elementaries.

Every year, we were on the chopping block when the budget was figured. Our kids cost the district more (per child) than the kids at the main schools. We were afraid to complain too much for fear it would be the turning point and lose us our program.

OP, your situation is different as it is a state law and not a district decision. I hope tomorrow brings good news for you re: transportation of your dc.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
That's really good to know- do you have a link showing this? I bet it would be useful for the OP.

Also, I can't help but think- what about my K aged daughter? If she were in K she could easily be riding a bus and she's 42" and 38lbs....

-Angela


I do have it in my bus stuff, I'll have to dig it up though, unless one of the other technicians beats me to it.

WRT to the situation common to many families (i.e. their child is being bused but is still small enough that they won't benefit from compartmentalization) it comes down to a parental decision.

Some things that some parents might want to consider is that over all, being on the bus is extremely safe to begin with. The bus is less likely to be hit, less likely to be driven by an operator with a poor driving history. The bus itself is designed to absorb crash forces along the frame before they ever get translated to the child.

When I was a child, my school bus was rear ended by a driver going approximately 40 mph before braking. I happened to be getting off the bus at the time. All I felt was a minor bump, and I actually gave the driver a reproachful glance, thinking she had tapped the gas as a joke! I didn't know until I was on the other side of the road that a car had turned itself into a slinky on the back of the bus









So, does compartmentalization 'work' for most 5 year olds? No, not really. Are those children statistically over all less likely to be injured riding unrestrained in the bus than, say, restrained in their five point harnesses in their parents cars? Yes!


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

So today was the day that the route supervisor came to our house to see how Connor fits (or rather, does NOT fit) in the integrated carseats on the school bus. The aide put Connor in and tightened the straps as tight as they would go, and it was obviously way too loose. At first the supervisor tried to tighten them more, but the straps just don't go any tighter (I've tried). Then he changes his position on the issue and says "well, this is how it's supposed to fit anyway, you don't want to choke the kid."

&&**(&%$&*((***** BLEEP!

Can you believe that the route SUPERVISOR said that? I calmly said "no sir, the written guildelines state that you should not be able to pinch webbing at the shoulders, or fit more than two fingers between the webbing and the child. This is obviously too loose." Then I went to another kid and said "this is too loose..." another kid, another kid, EVERY kid on the bus was buckled in wrong.

He tried to tell me that the seats had been inspected by a CPST, that the training and written guidelines they all received stated that the way Connor was buckled in was appropriate, and he even said "in all the years I've been doing this, ma'am, no one has ever complained their child wasn't buckled in correctly." I said "well, those parents either didn't know the recommendations, didn't care, or didn't come actually ONTO the bus themselves to see how their kids were being buckled in. I have read the recommendations, I do care, and I am on the bus. This is not acceptable."

So he went to his van and got a regular carseat and installed it and put Connor in it. Connor fits in it well, the straps do tighten enough. The route supervisor hadn't tightened the seat enough for my liking, so I put my (substantially pregnant!) weight into it and tightened it more. When Connor left he was securely buckled in to an appropriate seat that was correctly buckled into the bus seat.

I told the route supervisor I want to see his written guildelines that say Connor was buckled appropriately, I want to speak with their CPST (he said they had one on staff that trained them), and I want to reconvene Connor's IFSP team to add the "special" carseat to his IFSP. It's been an hour and a half, I haven't heard back from him yet with any information. I'll give it till this afternoon.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Good job mama! Keep going.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

I just got a call back from the school nurse, who is the CPST. She said that she met Connor at school this morning and looked at how he was in the new seat and said that it looked good. I told her that it looked good because I was the one who tightened it down. I told her that overall I was very concerned with the attitude of the driver, the aide, and the route supervisor. She said that she provided them training in June, but after talking to them today and seeing what I was saying about the regular seats, she is going to be providing them all with "refresher" training very soon. She agreed that Connor did not fit well in the regular seats and that it should have been obvious to everyone else.

She said that it's not necessary to amend his IFSP to include anything about a special carseat, which makes me slightly nervous to be honest. She said we don't have to amend it because the law says they have to provide appropriate transportation, and they're doing that with this new seat. Yet previously they weren't doing that...so I don't know how I feel about that. I've written very good notes about this whole issue over the last week, so at least I have that if it ever comes up again.

I asked her if the carseat would remain permanently on his bus, because I had had to tighten it down even more this morning after they installed it, and she said that it was her understanding it would, but she would check to be sure. She also said that she's going to spot check Connor specifically throughout the school year to make sure he's buckled in correctly.

I talked to our nanny this morning, asked her if she's ever actually taken him on the bus. She said no, that she just hands him to the aide, that she didn't think she was allowed on the bus. I told her to go ahead and butt herself on once in a while, check to make sure the seat is buckled tightly and that Connor is harnessed correctly (she knows all about carseat safety and is shocked that the school is acting this way). So she said she'll do that from now on. And of course I'll be home on maternity leave soon anyway, so I can spot check his seat as well.

SO...it looks like the issue is mostly handled for now. It really concerns me that no other parent is checking on this kind of thing, you know? Where are these parents? Do they just not care?


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Good job, mama!









Believe it or not, you're lucky. It took me an entire school year of verbal altercations, speaking with person after person, and not making any bosom buddies







, for our school system to address the fact that not yet 30 pound 3 year olds were riding in

A. backless boosters
in
B. lap belt only positions
on
C. vehicle seats without head rests.










Our final solution is that every busing position was retrofitted with a lap-shoulder belt, and the backless boosters were all replaced with high backs. The transportation supervisor flatly refused to consider harnessed seats. He was worried about liability if the drivers had to unbuckle the crotch strap


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

I am in Ohio and my daughter received services through Early intervention as well. from age 24 months-36 months she rode the bus twice a week on a 30 mile round trip from her regular daycare to the county special needs pre-school. She was on an IFSP for language delays (32 weeker) She rode a full sized bus and was actually the only little one on the route (the rest were adults with downs syndrome and other delays or special needs that received schooling and/or job training through the county MD/DD board) right from the begining they had her in her own dedicated 5 point harnessed correctly installed, non-expired, size appropriate car seat. I was very pleasantly surprised at the amount of care she received from the driver and the aid. And sage adored all of her friends on the bus, and they all loved her like she was their little sister, in fact (as a WOHM) for the first few months I assumed the friends on the bus that she mentioned were other little ones







)

Our county was also awesome about our vaccine exemption, not a bit of a hassle at all


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