# Suzuki Mamas Tribe



## insahmniak

There seems to be interest in a Suzuki music method tribe, so here's a place to ask questions and offer support. Here's a link to the old thread.

As for us, my only DD will be five next month and has been playing violin since 3.5. She just gave a couple of neighborhood concerts tonight - part of an assignment from her teacher. It was harder on her than I anticipated, particularly announcing the pieces she was going to play. When I was young and played I don't ever remember being nervous at all - not one iota - and I attributed it to starting young and assumed that the same would be true for her. Not so. I'm assuming that the more she does it the easier it will get, so I'm trying to think of more informal opportunities for her to play. For example, we took her violin out to an organic farm this weekend and she played for the chickens, and of course then the farm staff was begging for more. I hope things like this will help. If anyone has any insights to share I'm all ears. Oh, and she had no accompanist - so perhaps the whole totally solo aspect may have been what tipped her over the edge. She was completely exposed. I'm no pianist but I could pretty easily plunk out the melody or some chords for her. Any thoughts about violins performing without accompaniment?

As reluctant as she was she played beautifully today.







We tried the hint about the honey on the bow and that seemed to make a huge difference, Miranda. Thank you. Her tone is nearly as big as it can be on the little violin.

BTW DD also started piano last month and she's giving a twinkles graduation on Friday. So between the two, I'm hoping the performance jitters will soon be easier to handle. But again, any advice is certainly welcome. I'm flying blindly on this issue.


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## insahmniak

nkm1968 -

Quote:

Although they would both quit if were an option at my house; it isn't, although we aren't mean about it, we have explained to both of them that it is good for their brains, we send them to schools with little to no homework, so giving back to us 15 to 20 minutes per night is a reasonable request.
I wanted to respond to your post, nkm, because I've often wondered how much of an "option" music lessons would be for my own DD. It's interesting to me that it's not an option for you. That's the way it was for me, growing up, and I SWORE I'd NEVER do that to my own. And yet.....







I don't know what I'd do, now, if she started to complain. Of course we're still very much honeymooning with it. But I'm sure the time will come when I'm faced with this.

I thank my mom on a fairly regular basis, now, for not letting me quit....just like she said I would.







(I took private lessons for 12 years, starting age 4) It's an interesting issue for me and I'm fascinated with different approaches. I have no idea, at this point, what I would do.

By the way, congratulations on finding a teacher you're happy with. It sounds like good things are happening with the change.


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## nkm1968

Well, they have not really protested that loudly or strenuously, so it hasn't really interfered with our overall relationships! So, I don't feel that bad for forcing them at times to practice, because it's not like some of the kids I've seen at Suzuki groups who look murderously angry about being there!

And they are also pretty used to doing other things they don't want to do or love to do, like pick up dog doo from the yard (hey, nobody wants to do that!), help with cleaning the house, or, for my adolescent, to HAVE to visit with her great grandfather and myself and our almost 7 year old EVERY Friday night , from about 5:30 pm till before 8pm, where we cook dinner and have a nice relaxed meal, and even sometimes they play their fiddles for him. She understands that we are on borrowed time to enjoy a relationship with him, and so she minimizes the grief if she would rather glam out for an hour before a mixer at school (she does glam out at his house, and I drop her off after school, haha).

So in the scheme of things that kids in my house have to do, practicing music is high on our list. Getting straight A's or getting into an Ivy League College aren't even on the list. Other folks have different rules which I respect but do not enforce at my house. For instance, I was forced to attend Catholic mass every week, and I am an atheist and have been since age 13, yet I attended with little protest out of respect for my parents who also had a limited list of what me and my brothers HAD to do.

On the bright side, 15 year old DD1 just started playing guitar and has been able to play by ear and fairly effortlessly compared to other beginners, and she and her guitar teacher (NOT Suzuki) have both commented it is probably because of great ear-training on the fiddle!!

Sometimes girl, moms just can't all the way win. I'll take a partial any way I can.


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## Bird Girl

I could've written that. My DD told me, in a neutral tone of voice, that she wanted to quit violin; I responded that I was sorry, she may, in fact feel that way, but at our house, you must practice your instrument. She accepted this with only the complaint that her two-year-old brother didn't have to: she was mollified when I assured her that he would have to, also.

I can't make them cook dinner. I can't make them do laundry. Yet I can give them important, meaningful work even when they are young. And the fact is that making music is so much more joyful a task than any of the bloody things I have to do as an adult, that I don't feel too bad about cracking the whip.

It helps properly wire their brains. It teaches them how to work hard. It gives them a gift when they reach adulthood. It's worth it, no matter that they will go through times when they don't see that. We are the adults. We have the foresight.


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## ShanaT

I'm so glad to see the tribe here. My 4 yr old DS started violin 2 months ago. We're having fun so far. The honeymoon wore off when he started trying to play "run pony stop pony" but his enthusiasm came back when he "got it." Since it was his idea to play violin (we spent a month trying to talk him out of it), he's bewildered that I insist that he play violin everyday, but we're having pretty good results using game pieces and playing around the house and things like that. The internet video phone with his grandparents has been a big help too.
I'm encouraged to hear that Suzuki kids are learning to play fiddle tunes too. I think the source of his interest in violin is the bluegrass festival we went to last summer, but he doesn't make any distinction between styles of music yet, so as far as he's concerned Twinkle Twinkle is a fine fiddle tune.
I have a 2 yr old DS who wants to play too, but I've explained that he's not old enough so he's happily played with the toys in the play area during his brother's group lesson. This week there was a 2 yr old girl in the class and my DS2 wouldn't leave the room. "Where's MY biolin?" he demands.


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## moominmamma

Hi, thanks for starting this tribe!

I'm Miranda, raised a Suzuki kid myself back in the 1970's, daughter of a Suzuki violin teacher trainer, part-time Suzuki teacher and sibling to two full-time Suzuki teachers. I have four kids.

Erin (14) began Suzuki violin at age 4. She finished the first 8 Suzuki books around her 11th birthday and this year has moved on to a Suzuki-friendly advanced teacher who unfortunately lives 8 hours from us, so we make monthly treks for lessons and it's nowhere near ideal but I can't see any other way that would be better. She lives for music, this girl, and is also an advanced pianist (non-Suzuki trained) and talented soprano. She's got five weeks of intensive music lined up for the summer and would be happier if it were 10 weeks!

Noah (11) began Suzuki lessons at age 5 and switched from violin to viola at around age 8. He is working in the middle of viola Book 6 and has come into his own this year as a solo performer and a chamber musician. He loves being a violist and is very much in demand these days as a chamber player.

Sophie (9) began violin at about 4.5. She's progressed well and has just begun Book 6. She is struggling with some posture and technique issues in her bowing, as well as with the 'success' and acclaim her siblings are all getting. "Middle Suzuki Child Syndrome" I guess. She's really sweet and will come into her own soon, I think, but I do feel for her. She practices entirely independently, and has for a year or two, due to perfectionistic meltdowns that occur when she lets me watch. So that makes it much tougher for her to progress and get a handle on remediative stuff.

Fiona (newly 5) began violin at not-quite-3, because no one seemed to be able to convince her she should wait. She's progressing solidly through book 3 and is reading, shifting and working well on beginning vibrato. She's tiny and is a showstopper when she performs. She's also the only one of my kids who isn't a perfectionist, who enjoys practicing, who can make a mistake and move on.

Looking forward to participating here!

Miranda


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## nkm1968

Hey I have a Fiona too! DD2, almost 7!

We chose her name after DH and I fell in love with the Fiona charachter from "The Secret of Roan Inish"


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## nkm1968

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
I'm so glad to see the tribe here. My 4 yr old DS started violin 2 months ago. We're having fun so far. The honeymoon wore off when he started trying to play "run pony stop pony" but his enthusiasm came back when he "got it." Since it was his idea to play violin (we spent a month trying to talk him out of it), he's bewildered that I insist that he play violin everyday, but we're having pretty good results using game pieces and playing around the house and things like that. The internet video phone with his grandparents has been a big help too.
I'm encouraged to hear that Suzuki kids are learning to play fiddle tunes too. I think the source of his interest in violin is the bluegrass festival we went to last summer, but he doesn't make any distinction between styles of music yet, so as far as he's concerned Twinkle Twinkle is a fine fiddle tune.
I have a 2 yr old DS who wants to play too, but I've explained that he's not old enough so he's happily played with the toys in the play area during his brother's group lesson. This week there was a 2 yr old girl in the class and my DS2 wouldn't leave the room. "Where's MY biolin?" he demands.









Get that kid a "biolin"! I'd send you our old 1/16th but DD2 has it plastered with mermaid stickers, so I am making it into a wall installation box with other "mementos" from her being 4.


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## Ofwait

Hehe, sorry, my first thought was motorcycles. 

Are you covering any of the other instruments that are taught Suzuki method?


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## megincl

Subscribing! So glad to find this thread. I've got a just newly 5 yo DS who started Suzuki cello in the fall. Lots of ups and downs, but mostly ups. More to come!

megin


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## nkm1968

Hey guys, check out the Suzuki piece gone raver!
DD1 is a fan of a band called the Gorillaz, and on their fist self-titled album, there is a piece called "Left Hand Suzuki Method" that is hilarious!

I found it outside her CD on YouTube, just search Gorillaz Left Hand Suzuki


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## Stacymom

I'm Stacy, a suzuki mom and a suzuki violin and viola teacher. (Hi Miranda!)

My six year old is playing violin as well, and she's just starting book 3. I thought the last two minuets in bk 2 were going to kill us, but we made it!

I am amzed at how much harder it is to be the parent than the teacher. DD and I have a fire-y relationship anyway, and sometimes the practice sessions can get pretty intense! But she has good focus, a good tone, is improving some of the bowing things we've been working on for months (finally!) and her vibrato is absolutely gorgeous. We're headed to Institute in a few weeks, and that's a huge motivator for both of us!

Fun, fun. Its always so good to talk with like minded people!


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## insahmniak

Fiery Mother-Daughter relationship? :raises hand: We've got one of those here, too. It a constant challenge for me to take the challenge out of the learning experience, break it down to manageable steps and remember to take it to FunLand. I'm pretty sure the days of rolling marbles down the piano bookstand and into the cup are going to come to an end soon enough. And frankly I'm not sure where to go from there. I actually remember the challenge of learning vibrato like I remember nothing else about playing. Oh, the dread....







:

Piano question ahead....

Anyone here with a lefty piano player?

My DD writes with her left hand, but by golly she's darn reluctant to play piano with it! She seems much more comfortable with her right, but I can't tell if that's just because she practices it more because it feels like more of a challenge. But at this point I'm feeling pretty confused. I have even suggested to her a time or two to try writing a word with her right hand.









Piano is going swimmingly for her. In fact after having the challenge of technique with the violin, piano seems kind of boring for her. Boring isn't quite the right word of course because playing hands together is a different kind of challenge for her. But I notice her attention wander off much much more while playing piano than violin, where it doesn't seem to have a chance to wander off at all.


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## ShanaT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nkm1968* 
Get that kid a "biolin"! I'd send you our old 1/16th but DD2 has it plastered with mermaid stickers, so I am making it into a wall installation box with other "mementos" from her being 4.

So how young did people start? We started a couple months ago with Ds1 at 4 1/2 because he really wanted to, and he's doing wonderfully. It looked like the families with 3 yr olds just starting out were really struggling to keep the kids interest and get them to participate.
Now DS2, at 2, is showing a lot of interest, clapping the rhythms, and asking where his "biolin" is. I figure we should at least wait until he can get the right number "ippi"s in mississippi


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Anyone here with a lefty piano player?









I do! My eldest, now 14, is strongly left-dominant and plays violin (Suzuki) and piano (traditional). There was a time very early on when she found right-hand work on piano easier; I think it was because as a violinist she was very melody-oriented and she was more in tune with the upper voice. All that low-down harmony stuff wasn't her bag yet. It just took a little while for it to gel.

Miranda


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
So how young did people start? We started a couple months ago with Ds1 at 4 1/2 because he really wanted to, and he's doing wonderfully. It looked like the families with 3 yr olds just starting out were really struggling to keep the kids interest and get them to participate.
Now DS2, at 2, is showing a lot of interest, clapping the rhythms, and asking where his "biolin" is. I figure we should at least wait until he can get the right number "ippi"s in mississippi









I started my very precocious eldest, who was steeped in Suzuki music due to my teaching, at 3, recognized that she was too young, took a break and restarted at 4.

My next two kids I started around 4 1/2 or 5.

I was pretty sure that 4 1/2 or 5 was the magical starting age and that people who started at 3 were going for Suzuki parenting bonus points rather than taking a child's developmental timetable into account and doing the sensible thing. Sure, 3-year-olds often wanted to play an instrument, but they certainly didn't want to study formally and do the hard work of learning. To pretend otherwise was a delusion, and coping with the lack of fit between a 3-year-old's needs and the structure of formal study would require parental creativity gymnastics and superhuman patience.

Then my fourth child came along. At age 2 3/4 we could no longer hold her back. She wanted the structure of weekly lessons kids in the worst way and she wanted to practice every day. She started with 5-minute lessons but within 6 months was up to almost a full half hour. She practiced eagerly every day and though I thought it was just a honeymoon thing, it's now 2 and a half years later and she's still going strong (except that she just broke her collarbone ... but she's still practicing vibrato, she just can't use her bow).

So hey, I guess, like everything else in parenting, the answer to the best age to start is "it depends."

Miranda


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## ShanaT

That's helpful and consistent with my gut instinct. I'm sure that we started Gus at the right time (4 1/2) although I had a couple doubts if he was mature enough the first month. Huck will have to wait, but he'll be ready!


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## MommaSuzi

Hi, I'm a mom to a 2 1/2 year old and planned before she was born to put her in Suzuki violin at 3 or 4. So in preparation I began playing the Suzuki CD's in the car and playing my own violin in front of her. Much to my chagrin she begged so much for her own "biolin" and kept picking mine up and playing it that I broke down and got her a rental to try out. So far it's been a month and she still asks to play it every day. I figure it might still be a year or two before she plays twinkle, but she's happy. And if she stops asking to play it after a bit the rental will go back and we'll try again in a year or two.


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## insahmniak

Book Revisions - Violin

Anyone familiar with the book revisions? I just picked up a violin book 2, but it looks like the old style cover (white with blue swirls). Haven't these all been revised? My store can't seem to find a revised book, except perhaps one that is packaged with a CD, which we already have and don't need.

Should we stick with the original book or should we return it and buy the book/CD and rehome the CD? Are the revisions in this book fairly significant?

Also, while I was there I snagged a 1/8th rental that seems nice. Label says Aristocrat by Selmer. We've run into some financial surprises that involve DP and the ER (everything's good and it looks like things are going to reattach- yay!), so I was glad to try a few rentals and have some options. Anyone familiar with the quality of this label? All I know is that the tone is night and day different from the 1/10th she's in. And it sounds pretty good to me. I had it in my head we'd buy this time, so now I'm feeling guilty like I'm not going the extra mile. I'm feeling some MG (mama guilt).


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Anyone familiar with the book revisions? I just picked up a violin book 2, but it looks like the old style cover (white with blue swirls). Haven't these all been revised?

Books 1 & 2 have been revised. The new recordings are very nice, but IMO they aren't enough of an improvement over Nadien/Cerone to warrant replacing the CD. You can definitely purchase the book 2 separately and I think it's worth getting it rather than the old version. The bowings in Musette have been fairly drastically altered, fingerings are different here and there (many more 4th fingers) and there's the inclusion of all sorts of exercises (prep exercises, shifting exercises, intonation exercises, etc.) that really help with solidifying the technique in Book 2. The photos are good too. Much improved, I think.

Miranda


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## insahmniak

Thanks, Miranda. I'll return the old version.


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## moominmamma

Wanted to correct what I wrote above ... the revised Book 3 is now out, as of about a month ago. The main difference is the inverted bowing in the Bach Gavotte (which is how I've been teaching the piece for years (makes much more sense) and the option of numerous shifts and ornaments in various pieces. Oh, and the note errors in the Bach Bourrée have been corrected so that the piece now matches the viola edition.

Miranda


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## Grace24

Wow how cool to see this thread! I'm a professional violinist, I began with the Suzuki method when I was 3 (actually 2 months before my 4th birthday). And now I make my living playing, so there, it can work!







I also taught book 1 when I was in high school.

Good for all of you, getting your kids interested in it. It's soooo good for them. My hubby can't wait to start our son (who's 6 months, a little young yet) on something, we don't know what yet.

Oh, I also took Suzuki piano from my mom starting when I was... um... 8, maybe? That didn't work too well because I would argue with her, so she found me another piano teacher. I played for 8 years and finally quit, my focus was more on violin.

Nice to meet y'all!


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## violafemme

Another Suzuki person here, I started violin at 3 and switched to viola in highschool.

I just started my 4 year old on violin.

I'll write more later but I wanted to say hello


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## bettie cracker

Hi there. I am brand new here.

My DD is 4 and we want to start on violin lessons soon. Her grandmother made her the most beautiful violin for her birthday (which she loves to play and knows how to hold correctly). I would love recommendations on how to find a great Suzuki teacher. We're in Lexington, KY

thanks in advance!

Kirsten


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## moominmamma

Hi Kirsten, welcome. Do you mean her grandmother made her a real violin, or a "box violin"? Just curious.

When I grew up (30+ years ago) there was a very strong Suzuki program in Lexington. Kay Collier-Slone who was the renowned 'expert' teacher trainer at dealing with very young pre-Twinklers got her start in that program and many excellent students, including her daughters, whom I grew up playing quartets with at summer institutes, came out of it. I would imagine there's still a sizeable program in your area, though I don't know for sure.

The solution to finding a great Suzuki teacher is to go and observe lessons. All Suzuki teachers should welcome/encourage this enthusiastically as it's a cornerstone of "getting ready" for families, and no teacher worth her salt wants to take on new students who don't fully understand the commitment expected and style of teaching -- before committing. Watch your prospective teacher in individual lessons with students in their first couple of years of study, especially those who are your child's age or just a little older. Feel the chemistry in the room, look for shifts in teaching style that respond to differing needs, and pay attention to how well the children play for their level. Not how advanced they are, but how good they look and sound playing at whatever level they're learning. Attending a recital can give you a good sense of the overall results of the teaching, as well as giving you a glimpse of the flavour of the studio community.

As well, a Suzuki teacher should have SAA-approved teacher training at least up to the Unit 4 level ... and a commitment to ongoing professional development, say, by attending summer institutes and workshops with teacher trainers, etc..

Miranda


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## insahmniak

Looking for ideas to help the left hand position.

We have a pretty severe case of guitar thumb going on. I'd like to see DD's had freed up more, the thumb come down a bit and straighten out, and more of a hole down there under the neck (of the violin).

Her wrist looks good and straight - not a lot of pancaking going on. But I'm guessing that her hand is supporting the violin almost completely.

I think her sponge/shoulder rest is inadequate but I don't know. I'm kind of scared to ask her to do the hands-free violin exercises because I have horrible cervial vertebra issues due to years of poor posture.

I should mention she's in a 1/10th and is using a simple gray sponge with rubber bands. I can't see how it's at all comfortable.

Any ideas?


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## BarefootinBrooklyn

Another "grown up" Suzuki kid here---I love seeing posts about the books and tiny violin sizes, it makes me miss playing. I started at 5, and played until I was 16. I loved it dearly, but didn't have the same discipline my peers did, and I became easily frustrated at not being "the best." We attended a Suzuki Instistute in Bristol, Virginia every summer and had such magical times. Good luck everyone who is starting out with it!


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## monkaha

:

We're currently "on vacation" from suzuki lessons while the teacher is out of town and we decide where our motivations lie. I am glad to see this tribe here though, and loved seeing the suggestions in the other thread too!


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## Sugarshoc

I am a violist. I didn't learn with Suzuki method. I learned traditionally on viola. When I started teaching, about 12 years ago, I had to use Suzuki books and since then I've become familiar with the method, teaching lots of violin. I teach a mix of Suzuki and traditional teaching. My baby is not here yet but I definitely plan on starting her when she's 3 years old if she's ready. I'm glad to see this thread. I also think about becoming certified as a Suzuki teacher.


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## moominmamma

I'm going to take this opportunity to brag about my youngest. She broke her collarbone about 3 1/2 weeks ago and took some time off from violin (and soccer, and aikido, and most of the other things she turns her busy body to) as she recovered. Now that she's back at violin, things are really clicking for her. She's playing with much more ease, and her rudimentary vibrato has now become a decent usable beginner's vibrato -- even on 4th finger! I'm amazed with how she's progressing.

Anyone else find that sometimes a brief break helps consolidate learning and prepare the way for the next leap? I know that as good Suzuki parents we're supposed to make practicing as much a part of daily life as eating ... but this forced break has reminded me that much good can come of a little holiday.

Miranda


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## greenmamapagan

Is this thread still active?
Mind if I hang around the edges of your tribe for a while? My 2 year old (nearly 26 months) is currently begging for a violin and we are pondering what to do. We're not quite sure she's ready yet but she's insistent. We are both musos but not string players so she has a keyboard set at the right height for her (weighted keys, after-touch etc), glockenspiels and every percussion instrument imaginable, a fife, tin whistles, recorder, my old "rubbish" clarinet plus a toy violin which has recently lost it's apeal. She wont settle for the fact that the sound is made by pushing a touch pad with the toy bow rather than bowing so she keeps making me get out mine (I can play anything in C, G or D that stays in first position







). Which means either I hold it & she bows or vice versa 'cause she's just too small.
WWYD? She's also asking for a trumpet but accepts the arguement that it's too heavy for her to hold right now so she'll need to wait a few years. A similar arguement doesn't work for violin because she knows they come in small sizes. I sound like I really don't want her to start playing yet, that's not true. I just want to make the "right" decision. YK?


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## moominmamma

Well, she may be too small. Playable violins smaller than 1/16th-size are pretty difficult to find. My dd started on a sorta-playable 1/32nd which we scoured the universe for, and stayed on that until she was almost 4, at which point she was big enough for a 1/16th, the smallest size normally available. So if your instinct is that she's not ready for lessons, you could quite honestly tell her (unless she's some great strapping youngster on the 99th percentile) that it turns out she'll have to be at least 3 to fit the smallest fractional violin.

As for lesson readiness, my own inclination is to wait until kids are 4 - 5. There's so much informal musical learning that can happen before that. Even structured informal learning. (Try looking into Alice Kay Kanack's "Musical Improvisation for Children" book and CD; I think it's fabulous!) Get copies of the Suzuki repertoire CDs, start listening every day, start attending group classes and lessons as observers. My favourite beginners to teach are the ones who have been attending classes as observers for up to a year beforehand. They've already learned so much, and they and their parents thoroughly understand the expectations that take root in a private lesson and group class environment.

That being said, my youngest started at not-quite-three, rather than age 4-5 as I'd intended. And she's done very well. She's incredibly focused and diligent, yet also emotionally resilient; it's a great combination for early formal instruction.

I'm meeting with a mom & daughter tomorrow about starting lessons in the fall -- the child turned four in April and while they've been observing classes on and off for 18 months, the child has only recently been able to understand that Suzuki violin expectations include not interrupting another child's lesson with questions and trying to get physically involved with the lesson, not squirming and chatting or laughing or wandering around. Nothing wrong with that sort of behaviour coming from a 3-year-old -- it's developmentally appropriate, but it's tough to run a goal-oriented private lesson or group class with a noisy preschooler moving around based on her own bio-developmental prerogative.

So you can get the best sense of her readiness by observing lessons. Not only will you be able to see what lessons are all about and develop a gut feeling about whether the structure will suit her, but by bringing her along you'll get a good sense of whether she can adapt to the behavioural expectations of a private lesson studio.

Miranda


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## insahmniak

We just returned from a fabulous week at the Intermountain Suzuki Festival in Salt Lake City. It was such a wonderful experience that I thought I'd give it a plug in case anyone is considering participating in the future.

We personally had classes with four fantastic teachers from across the country - one from Sweden. My daughter was so excited to play for her teachers and with other kids during classes and en masse on stage. It was magical to see so many motivated and enthusiastic people in one place.

We're hoping to make it again next year and reunite with the friends we made.

This year was the 30th anniversary of the institute, and it seemed very well-run. We didn't experience any scheduling or logistical issues throughout the week, which is quite a lot to say considering the hundreds of participants.

IMO, the institute at SLC is well worth considering if you're in the western US and looking for a festival with a large draw.


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## greenmamapagan

Thanks for the response. We've been looking out for a 1/32 since she was about 16 months with no luck (really just to have around). I measured her chin to fingers the other day at 36cm, I think a 1/16 is around 35.5 so she's nearly big enough. That doesn't address the problem of whether I think she's ready or not, I'm just glad we wont have to really look for a 1/32 because they seemed to be as rare as hen's teeth.

Quote:

My favourite beginners to teach are the ones who have been attending classes as observers for up to a year beforehand. They've already learned so much, and they and their parents thoroughly understand the expectations that take root in a private lesson and group class environment.
She's been observing me teach flute lessons & direct rehearsals since she was 12 weeks old, but that's a good point. I will ring a few Suzuki teachers and see if any would mind us observing







(I'm just a bit scared it will make her even more desperate for a violin NOW despite size/maturity factors)


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
We just returned from a fabulous week at the Intermountain Suzuki Festival in Salt Lake City.

I've heard good things about that institute. Thanks for the report. Are the offerings for advanced students as robust as they make them out in the brochure? I'm looking ahead to 2009 for my elder two. They'll be 15 (violin) and well past the end of the Suzuki books and 12 (viola) and nearing the end of the Suzuki books. They live for chamber music, both of them.

Our own little Suzuki institute happens in early August. It's only in its 4th year -- though my mom, the director, started an institute on the other side of the country that's celebrating its 25th year now.

Miranda

(thinking that at SLC for once she wouldn't be the only mom with four children registered)


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## Stacymom

I was at the instistute in SLC last week too, and I've been consistently for the past 9-10 years, sometimes taking teacher training, sometimes working, and for the past two years, taking my kiddos.

There is tons of stuff for advanced players- it really is amazing. They bring in masterclass teachers from everywhere (this year, I got to watch Jenny Oaks Baker) to teach the advanced kids. They have their own activities, and its not uncommon to see 12-13 year olds playing major concertos- Mendelson, Bruch, Lalo etc. They also recently started an intense "chamber days" program that starts a few days before the formal institute where the kids in quartets have 4 rehearsals daily with members of the Fry Street quartet, then they get to perform during insitute. I was super impressed witht he Fry Street this year, and heard a couple of their coached quartets, and for middle/high schoolers, I was impressed. I heard one student quartet do Beethoven Op 18, and one doing Dvorak's American, so the level of music is pretty high.

As far as violas go, we've had the Preucils for the past few years, and everyone has had wonderful things to say about them.

It really is well organzied and well run. There's two concerts every day, and they really are well put together. I haven't had a bad experience with a teacher yet, and I've been observing teachers for years. My dd cried at the end of institute this year, and told me she wished it would last a month!

And Miranda, you definitely wouldn't be the only one with four kids!


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## monkaha

Are the sizes the same for all strings? DD is currently (not) using a 1/2 violin. She's decided that she would rather do cello. This would work well because I have and play cello, so maybe it would go more smoothly than violin as far as practicing goes. So should I be asking around for a 1/2 size cello?


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## moominmamma

No, the sizes are not the same, nor do all teachers 'size' kids the same way. It is my impression that overall cellists don't move up as quickly. So a child who fits a 1/2 size violin may still be too small for a 1/2 size cello.

Just as an aside, the largest double bass normally played is actually called a 3/4 bass. Violas are normally described according to their string length, although in the smaller sizes some makers use the violin sizes, except that after a 3/4, the child would then move to a 14" (the same size as a full-size violin, but not a full-size viola).

Miranda


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## greenmamapagan

Just thought I'd update. We gave in and bought her a 1/16 violin and I've emailed a local teacher about observing group lessons. Actually it turns out there is a Suzuki festival on here right now (so I'm not expecting an immediate response to my email







) so I'm taking her to watch the finale concert on Wednesday.
IMO the 1/16 is too big as she can _just_ grasp the scroll but can't cup it with her hand. I don't think we'll start lessons until she "fits" it properly but then again I'll see how she goes observing lessons. I'm hoping to talk to a few other teachers at the festival so we can hopefully observe more than one in the next six months or so and find someone who is a good fit for our family.
She's been so cute though, wanting to "Practice violin practice" constantly. Carefully opening the case, doing everything slowly and with great precision, then saying "Good night violin, have a nice sleep."







when she puts it away again. Her practice last for about 30 seconds and consists of mainly getting it out and putting it away. If only more of my eight year old flute beginners had practised like that I wouldn't have been sending their instruments to the repair shop so often







: in their first weeks.
My violin's also been restrung so I've been twinkling away


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## ZanZansMommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
As for lesson readiness, my own inclination is to wait until kids are 4 - 5. There's so much informal musical learning that can happen before that. Even structured informal learning. (Try looking into Alice Kay Kanack's "Musical Improvisation for Children" book and CD; I think it's fabulous!) Get copies of the Suzuki repertoire CDs, start listening every day, start attending group classes and lessons as observers. My favourite beginners to teach are the ones who have been attending classes as observers for up to a year beforehand. They've already learned so much, and they and their parents thoroughly understand the expectations that take root in a private lesson and group class environment.

I'm meeting with a mom & daughter tomorrow about starting lessons in the fall -- the child turned four in April and while they've been observing classes on and off for 18 months, the child has only recently been able to understand that Suzuki violin expectations include not interrupting another child's lesson with questions and trying to get physically involved with the lesson, not squirming and chatting or laughing or wandering around. Nothing wrong with that sort of behaviour coming from a 3-year-old -- it's developmentally appropriate, but it's tough to run a goal-oriented private lesson or group class with a noisy preschooler moving around based on her own bio-developmental prerogative.

So you can get the best sense of her readiness by observing lessons. Not only will you be able to see what lessons are all about and develop a gut feeling about whether the structure will suit her, but by bringing her along you'll get a good sense of whether she can adapt to the behavioural expectations of a private lesson studio.

Miranda

This is great advice. Thanks.

Where would one find the Suzuki CD's you recommended?


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
This is great advice. Thanks.

Where would one find the Suzuki CD's you recommended?

Try Young Musicians.

Miranda


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## insahmniak

Gossec Gavotte question -

For the plucking at the end, what is normally taught? When I think back to my playing days, I just did whatever felt right. If the passage involved lots of fast plucking, I'd probably end up with the bow/frog in my fist and have a good grip and have my thumb on the corner of the fingerboard. If it wasn't a fast passage, I might keep the hold intact and just stick out a finger and float. But for DD, whose hand is so small and I'm kind of stumped. Her teacher is wanting her to keep her hand hold and just stick her index finger out, but that's frustrating for DD whose index finger is just not very long. (Fractional bows are much shorter, but not much *smaller*.) Also, finding the right string to pluck seems to take an eternity. We should probably do some plucking exercises...?

Ideas?


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## ZanZansMommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Try Young Musicians.

Miranda


Thanks Miranda.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Gossec Gavotte question - For the plucking at the end, what is normally taught?

I teach keepin the bowhold intact, extending the index finger. It's tough for kids to get at first, but there are lots of fun ways to practice. Play Twinkle Rhythm A on open E, then touch nose with only tip of index finger, then play on open E as fast as you can. Do the same exercise but touching the top of the bridge instead of the nose, then again touching the G-string, etc. etc..

Miranda


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## moominmamma

double post


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## honeybee

Hi! I hope you don't mind if I join. We have been considering Suzuki violin lessons for my 4.5 year old ds. So, I'm just kind of soaking up the language here. I have to admit that as a parent with limited musical skills, it is a lot intimidating... I played the flute in hs, and while I enjoyed it, I was always last chair, and not the best musician. I love the whole philosophy of Suzuki, but I'm a little nervous about actually trying to learn to play a little violin myself so I can teach ds.









We have been taking our boys to Music Together classes semi-regularly, and they both love music. Ds1 loves to sing and listen to music and he seems interested in the violin. We know a great teacher (she taught one of our MT classes). I wanted to start ds1 this summer, but I'm due w/ #3 in September, so out teacher recommended waiting until January so we wouldn't get interrupted right after starting. Ds will be 5 at that point. So, I hope this thread is still going strong in January when I'll really need the help!

Melissa


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I teach keepin the bowhold intact, extending the index finger. It's tough for kids to get at first, but there are lots of fun ways to practice. Play Twinkle Rhythm A on open E, then touch nose with only tip of index finger, then play on open E as fast as you can. Do the same exercise but touching the top of the bridge instead of the nose, then again touching the G-string, etc. etc..

Miranda

Thanks for the input and the ideas. We'll give that a try. It seems to always boil down to breaking it down to little steps. Oh, and keeping it fun helps, too!

Melissa-
We loved the Music Together program when we did it. I particularly appreciated the freedom our guide gave the class - to move pretty much however we felt at the time. It was very open and loosely structured. What a great place for little ones to feel free to express themselves! I thought it was a wonderful intro to what music can bring to our lives. To be honest, the transition to Suzuki felt a bit harsh after the freedom of that program. Yin Yang, I suppose. I'm bicultural asian-american and the differences between eastern and western approaches always seem quite striking to me.


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## Lovin' It

Great thread. We've been discussing starting dd soon and the comments on preparing to start (for example: sitting in on lessons and attending a concert) were so helpful. thanks.


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## Bird Girl

I'm happy to hear about the inter-mountain institute success. Our (Swedish) Suzuki teacher has taught there for several years, as does his wife, and they love it. We went to our little local workshop this year and last, but are considering adding the I-M institute next year.

Insahmniak, did your little one learn Zorro's Mark?


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bird Girl* 
I'm happy to hear about the inter-mountain institute success. Our (Swedish) Suzuki teacher has taught there for several years, as does his wife, and they love it. We went to our little local workshop this year and last, but are considering adding the I-M institute next year.

Insahmniak, did your little one learn Zorro's Mark?

No -we didn't learn Zorro's Mark. But we did learn a Swedish folk song from Sven, our techniques instructor. Spot-a-Snyoos it the phonetic way I'd spell it. Something about spitting the tobacco juice? Anyhow, we had great fun with Sven every morning. He got us warmed up with physical and brain-teasing exercises and he was full of high energy.

So, now I'm wondering what Zorro's Mark is!


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## Bird Girl

It's a fiddle piece. Our violin teacher, Goran, taught all of his fiddle students that piece at the institute. (Or most of them--I didn't give him the third degree about _how many_ students he taught that particular piece.







)

We had Sven at our workshop last year--he's incredibly fun and SO high energy! My DD still talks about him.


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## moominmamma

You are getting me all excited about our own upcoming Suzuki Institute. It starts on the 3rd and is small by most standards (84 students) but huge by the standards of our little town of 600 in the middle of nowhere ... the population of the town increases by 25% that week with the music students and their families.

My eldest has been away at two Suzuki institutes on her own (she'll be back Tuesday) and yesterday had the thrill of playing a full concert at the Notre Dame Basilica in Montreal with the senior string orchestra. She'll be doing our institute and then two further weeks of (traditional, non-Suzuki) music camp after that. She lives for summer institutes, this kid. Actually, all my kids do. My 5yo has a count-down calendar on the wall that she made. It's down to 9 days today, she excitedly told me. Can't wait!

Miranda


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## water

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha* 
Are the sizes the same for all strings? DD is currently (not) using a 1/2 violin. She's decided that she would rather do cello. This would work well because I have and play cello, so maybe it would go more smoothly than violin as far as practicing goes. So should I be asking around for a 1/2 size cello?

It depends on her size. My DS (newly 7, but BIG for his age) just moved to a Japanese 1/2, the German 1/2s are still too big for him.

If she is average for a 7yo she will probably still be on a 1/4. Again, the German 1/4s are bigger than the Japanese 1/4s, so maybe look for one of those...

The cello size definitely differ though from the violin, so make sure you do size her properly.


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## water

We just got back from a week at institute, and had a great time! We are doing another one in a couple of weeks also.

My 3.5yo DD tried violin and did shockingly well. We observed some lessons this spring and she was really not ready at all to start, so I had decided to wait until she is 4, but then she demanded to play violin, she already has a box and we have been playing feet position, bowhold and holding the box games, so I let her. We got a 1/16th, which fits her perfectly, and she loved the lessons!

When she decides to she can focus like nobody's business, so she did alternately wonderfully and then had tantrums when she didn't want to, sigh. She is more motivated to start than my DS was because he already plays (cello), so I am going to keep playing games and start her in the fall. She already has a great bowhold.


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## Bird Girl

Miranda, what fabulous experiences for your daughter! It's so great to be able to travel, and when you travel as a musician, you're traveling with a purpose, so you can avoid that traveler's angst that sometimes hits me when I'm just off on a vacation.

Our own workshop is small too--about 40 kids, I think--but each size has it's own best capacities.


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## dubsmum

My son started violin the month before he turned five. He's seven now, in Suzuki Book 4. Our program isn't "pure Suzuki" as it isn't available in our area, but I do all I can at home to adhere to the tenets of the Suzuki method, and in sensing my desire to stick to Suzuki, his teacher seems to be doing the same thing. He's currently on a 1/2 size Carlo Lamberti LV11, which is a lovely instrument, and one I don't see him outgrowing any time soon. (Fingers crossed!)


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## greencat

I just found this thread by wondering around on MDC. This thread is great since our school doesn't have a parent support group. Currently, my DD6 is finishing up the book I, and DS4 is on Lightly Row. We are planning to have a private concert to celebrate the book I completion and Twinkle graduation in November. We'll have a piano accompanist. It seems my DD is more worried about how she wants her hair done, and what to wear!? I hope all will go well.


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## moominmamma

Hi all. We've just wrapped our Suzuki institute and are all flying high. All four of my kids were well-placed and enjoyed themselves immensely. What a lot of fun! And what a great bunch of people. Suzuki families are just such amazing human beings.

We figure ours may be the only Suzuki Institute that has ever had a black bear hanging out for an afternoon within view of the classrooms. That was rather exciting for a lot of the families!

Miranda


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
We are planning to have a private concert to celebrate the book I completion and Twinkle graduation in November. We'll have a piano accompanist.

You just reminded me that we never did this. My youngest had wanted to do something similar ... but somehow we forgot all about it once she was far enough beyond Gossec Gavotte for a graduation recital to be comfortable and easy for her. Oh well... I guess if it was still important to her she would have mentioned it again. I do think it can be a nice tradition if it's handled well.

Miranda


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## ShanaT

Hi,
My DS (5 in 2 weeks) started on violin last spring and was doing great, having fun, and really into it until mid summer. He had his first little concert at an Arts Festival with the rest of his class and seemed to enjoy it very much, said "I want to do this a hundred more times" afterward. Since then, he has refused to play, saying it "breaks his brain." I can't come up with any games or incentives to get him to play. When he does play he'll only play "fiddle tunes" - his own wild improvisations or his easiest songs. He won't play twinkle, even though he was playing it well before. I'm not sure what to do. Its time to sign up for fall lessons and he says he still wants to, but I'm starting to wonder. We tried summer lessons, but his teacher hasn't been available.
BTW playing violin was his idea, he begged for a month before we gave in, but when we started I committed myself to giving it at least a year.
Its not just violin, he was reading well in the spring and now says that reading "breaks his brain" too.
We were having so much fun before, I'd appreciate any advice to get us back on track.


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## moominmamma

Shana, this sounds like one of those phases in a child's development when things seem really quiescent, or even regressive, but really your child is integrating skills and knowledge and getting prepared for a leap into more abstract learning. I would sit back and be patient, and just stick with the program in terms of your commitment to his Suzuki violin learning. In four to six months I think you'll look back on this summer and say "well NOW I see what he was getting ready for!" Kids never stop learning; all that happens is that sometimes their learning is of internal reintegrating preparatory type and we don't see it. What looks like a plateau usually turns out to have been a foundation for some big leap.

You'll probably find that regular lessons will help get things gradually more on track too, with those clear regular gentle expectations and the rhythm of weekly lessons and assignments. Does he have group classes? That will help a ton as well.

I think you'll find over the long term that waxing and waning, bumps and leaps, are just part of the landscape in music learning. You've met your first one. This too shall pass. I think it's valuable for a child to have a parent stick by them with faith that they can and will eventually progress, that they are worth supporting, that excellence is inevitable when we persist, even when it comes gradually and indirectly, and that sometimes there are pauses and detours but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong.

When my eldest (now 14 and a violin powerhouse, working on the Mendelssohn violin concerto) was your ds's age she went through a similar phase. This was in the winter of 1998-99 and I blogged my way through it. You can read a post from the middle of that phase here. Eventually it passed and she took off again, which you'll discover if you want to read later posts of the "violin blog" type (most of them from 1999 are violin blog posts). Patience was all that was required of me.

Dr. Suzuki talked about two different types of patience. The first is "controlled frustration." The second is "the absence of specific expectations." I think that Suzuki parents need to aspire to the second. Wishing you the good kind of patience.









Miranda


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## ShanaT

Thank you for your wonderful reply! I still need to graduate from "controlled frustration".
I agree that its a developmental phase. He's responding the same way to other activities that he enjoyed before, reading, drawing, swimming. Everything "breaks his brain". And I have no idea where he came up with that expression!
We haven't had regular lessons through the summer and haven't had group at all. I'm convinced he learns more in group than in his private lesson. Our current teacher just took a job at a local university and is only going to offer group monthly. I had been considering another teacher, who ONLY does Suzuki, and monthly versus weekly group may tip the scales in her direction.
I'm hoping that he gets back into when we start lessons again. He has played his crazy fiddle tunes for the for the last couple days as long as I only applaud and don't make any suggestions







It's really pretty adorable when I'm not trying to get him to do something else. I'll look at it as another form of learning from now on. Thanks!


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## calendula

subbing!


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## pixilixi

Not a Suzuki family here, but definitely interested. I will go back and read all the posts, but I had to respond to one poster whose dc's interest stemmed from going to a bluegrass festival. Dh is a guitar fanatic and is really into bluegrass, so we attend quite a few festivals (along with folk and celtic ones).

Anyway, ds is only 2, but he has not ever responded to kids music in the way he seems interested in bluegrass. He always runs to dh's room when dh starts playing or singing this style.

Anyway, my question for some of you experienced muso's - I am thinking about learning violin myself (at the ripe old age of 31). I have been a bit put off by some people's responses, but then, others have been encouraging. I love the sound of the instrument myself, and love celtic music, so I'd love to try. I guess the other thing is that I would like ds to see me playing music as well as dh, and eventually for ds to learn an instrument to play with us. Can anyone give me some encouraging words of wisdom?

Right, I'm off to see if I can find out more about suzuki method.


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## monkaha

We're picking up again. What was the book suggested (here?) with tips for making practicing fun? I skimmed this thread but couldn't find it. Thanks!


----------



## megincl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha* 
We're picking up again. What was the book suggested (here?) with tips for making practicing fun? I skimmed this thread but couldn't find it. Thanks!

OOoooh! I'd definitely love to know the names of any books. And, while I'm at it, anyone know of books for kids that talk about practicing?

still cello-ing here...
megin


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## greencat

We just got a new Fall schedule from school. We do all of the group lessons on Mondays from Pre-Twinkies up to book 2/3 starting from 4:30pm. The goup lessons are 45min each, but they had added 5min between classes for tansitioning. Mostly, for teachers who may teach one class to the other, or kids to get their violin out, put the coats up, etc. I like that.

Soon, we'll have our Halloween Play in for all the groups to play together with costume on.

What is happening with your school that is new and exciting??


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## ebethmom

I'm so glad to have found this thread!!

I grew up in a Suzuki family. I played violin for one year, then switched to viola. I've been a violist ever since! I play professionally and teach Suzuki method violin and viola.

My kids are 7 and 4, and we're getting ready to start lessons as soon as their violins get here. We've dabbled with their lessons before. Ds started when he was 5, right when we were starting to homeschool. I couldn't fight both battles! Now that homeschooling is going well, we'll get back to violin.

Dd is eager to start. She already has a pretty bow hold and a strong interest. She would much rather play _my_ violin. Hopefully the 1/16 that is coming will sound a lot better than her 1/32!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *megincl* 
OOoooh! I'd definitely love to know the names of any books.

I love the Eds' books. Ed Kreitman wrote "Teaching from the Balance Point" which is about violin pedagogy and how it is all wrapped up in the Suzuki philosophy. There are some very inspiring stories and he presents a wonderfully realistic big-picture view of the Suzuki violin journey. It's about equally relevant to parents and teachers. Edmund Sprunger wrote "Helping Parents Practice: Ideas for Making it Easier" vol. 1 which is, as the title would suggest, primarily for parents. It's not all about gimmicky stuff, games and bribes like it could be. Instead, while there are a few little games suggested, the book is mostly about expectations and supporting your child and figuring out how to help your child do good practicing more easily.

Miranda


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## moominmamma

ebethmom, nice to meet a fellow violist. I grew up a Suzuki violinist but 'cross-trained' on a borrowed viola for two or three years as a teen in ensembles and youth orchestra. As an adult I continued with violin on and off but somehow I knew that even though I didn't own an instrument I was a violist at heart. I bought myself a viola about 6 years ago and haven't looked back.

My ds (11) is also a violist. I'm learning the Suzuki viola repertoire alongside him since I didn't learn it at the first pass. He's just grown into a 13" instrument that should be arriving next week. He plays a Sabatier, lucky kid.

I have never found a 1/32nd that's really worth playing. Three of my kids started on that size (we grow small kids in my family) and they kind of hit walls of frustration with the sound quality, especially when it came time to start using the D-string. The sixteenth seemed so joyfully playable when they finally grew into it. My 5yo recently moved up to a 1/10th. It was still a little too big, but she's well set up and was feeling the limits of her 1/16th, and it was a similar order-of-magnitude improvement in playability. Life's good now.









We're arranging and re-arranging fall schedules here too. Our group classes and orchestra rehearsals will shift to Wednesday evenings this year. They're a challenge at the best of times -- we have 15 students, ages 4-15, violin and viola, levels from Twinkle to post-Book-10 all in the same group class







. My younger kids' violin lessons will be on the same day but in the morning. My elder two no longer study locally because they've outgrown their teachers. We drive them to lessons elsewhere once a month. Not ideal, but it's the best we can do.

Miranda


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## ebethmom

Ed Kreitman's book _Teaching from the Balance Point_ is on my list of required reading for every Suzuki parent. He writes so clearly and has such a clear vision for his students.

I also like Ed Sprunger's book. Your description is great, Miranda. I'm sure I'll be referring back to this book often as I attempt to teach my own kids.

I would also recommend two volumes published by SAA. They are compilations of articles published in the SAA journals. Drat . . . I'll have to post later with the titles. I can't come up with them at the moment.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I have never found a 1/32nd that's really worth playing.

We actually have two in our home right now. One of my teacher friends let me borrow her dd's first violin. It's one of the Twinkle violins. I don't think they make that line anymore. She bought it as a "small 1/16". I measured it, and it is actually a 1/32. It sounds OK.

When we first borrowed her violin, my dd was only 2 1/2. She was just dangerous! We had her violin out in the rehearsal hall on afternoon, and she just TOOK OFF! I was right there with her, but she was too fast. Running full tilt with a borrowed violin - EEK! So I bought her an ebay special. It truly is a VSO!! (Sharspeak for Violin Shaped Object)

It's pretty, but it's impossible to tune and sounds like the piece of trash that it really is. Dd would try to play it, then hand it back saying "It's not working!"

I'm looking forward to getting my kids started, and also a little nervous. I'm on a tight schedule with our homeschool. We have to get it all done before I leave to teach other peoples' kids!


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## ruthmg

Hi! My sister is a suzuki learner. (My mom found out about it too late for me). She took violin, and still plays at age 30 recreationally, whereas I had traditional piano lessons and hated every minute of it.

My son is 3 1/4, and loves music. We have a keyboard (not a piano) that my in-laws got for him (cheaper, you know), and he likes to play it. I would like to start him on the violin, but I haven't really exposed him to seeing violins played, just listening to Vol. 1 and talking about violins when we listen to classical music.

My thought for starting him on violin is that learning to tune is important, and that he can switch to piano when he is older. We have a pretty good Suzuki community here in Gainesville, FL. Should I wait until he's older (like 4?) or start him in January when he's 3.5? I was thinking January because my 2nd baby is due then, and I thought Suzuki could be something that we do together as a special mommy-son thing.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I have never found a 1/32nd that's really worth playing.

I should qualify that. There are defintely better and worse 1/32nds and the better ones are better than nothing. I think that there are a few that can be playable on the A and E strings but it's almost impossible to find one that has a responsive D- or G-string sound. One of ours could sort of make a passable D-string sound, enough for, say, that one note in "Long Long Ago," but when it came to sustained lower-string playing in the latter half of Book 1 it was the sort of thing that made me want to apologize to my kid after every note for the poor tool I'd had to provide her with.

A typical 1/32-size beginner will have grown into a 1/16th by the time s/he's working in the latter half of Book 1. That didn't happen in our family with two of the kids so we struggled, my eldest especially. With my youngest, we moved her up 'early', while the sixteenth was still a bit too big, and she did much better.

Miranda


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## moominmamma

My thoughts on starting age are earlier in this thread, here and here. But only you know your ds and your individual circumstances. Starting before age 4+ can be a huge challenge; many/most Suzuki teachers don't start 3-year-olds any more due to those challenges, even though there was a lot of enthusiasm for the idea a generation ago. Still, every child is different.

Miranda


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## Mama Shifra

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
We were having so much fun before, I'd appreciate any advice to get us back on track.

I am not a suzuki mom (my child goes to Childbloom guitar www.childbloom.com, which is similar but not quite suzuki), but I found the book _In the Suzuki Style: A Manual for Raising Musical Consciousness in Children_ by Elizabeth Mills (Berkeley, CA: Diablo Press, 1973) a great resource for motivating children when they are losing interest. It is out of print, but your library may have a copy. The book _A Suzuki Parent's Diary: or How I Survived My Firs 10,000 Twinkles_ by Carroll Morris also speaks of how after a big recital, your child may fall into the dumps. So take heart! It should pass.

Good luck!
Shifra


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## insahmniak

Ideas for developing "self tracking" of repeated sections?

DD's getting ready for her book 1 graduation and we're having some issues with repeated sections. I'll give an example: Minuet 3 starts with a section that _seems_ to repeat but actually has two different endings. Then that entire section is repeated. DD gets pretty frustrated with me when she goes on to the next section and I remind her about the repeat. "But I already repeated it!" I've shown her the music several times, singing through it for her and showing her the notation. In an attempt to make it more concrete for her I told her that each "hello" section (the grace note) needs a "goodbye" section to follow it and then you repeat the hello and goodbye and *that's* the repeat.

So I used jelly beans (at this point we were desperately needing a pick me up) and when she'd start the hello section I'd put out a yellow bean, and a red bean after she followed it up with the goodbye section, and then we'd repeat it and then she'd go on of course. And she got it - yay! But after a few times doing this very well I figured we needed to try it without my visual cues. So I asked her to keep track herself and she got lost again. And super duper frustrated, I might add. Tears and unconsolable. I'm getting the feeling she's quite frustrated and disappointed with herself.

I so want to help her get this and feel good about playing again. It's like she lacks a certain mindfulness about her playing and I don't see how we're going to get through the book 1 recital without it.

Any ideas? I'm really looking forward to her emerging on the other side of this and feeling good about her playing again.


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## moominmamma

I love using "stepping stones" because they're so beautifully incremental.

You get the requisite number of pieces of craft/construction paper. For the first half of Minuet 3 you'd want four. You might choose pink for the "hellos" and yellow for the "goodbyes." Get your child's input on colour choices -- if they're meaningful they'll work better and your child will be more invested in them. Write (or draw symbols) for "hello" and "goodbye" in them. Then use many or all of the following steps, progressing to the next once she deems the current one "too easy." Most kids love it when you say "oh yeah? you think that's too easy? Let's see if you can do _this_, then!" as if you'll be amazed if they can ... but you notch the difficulty up by such a teeny amount that they're sure they can do it.

Ask your dd to help you lay them out on the floor as a "path" in the order they come in the piece.
Ask her to make the path all by herself.
Put them down mixed up and ask her to fix them.
Get her to try putting them in order when they're face down, without the words/symbols showing.
Listen to the first half of the piece on CD whilst stepping with her from one "stone" to the next.
Challenge her to step at the right time from one to the next while listening to the piece.
Sing the piece and step with her.
Have her sing the piece while stepping.
Put the stones behind your back and pull out pink or yellow randomly. Ask her to sing it.
Repeat the above but ask her to play the section you pull out on her violin.
Repeat the previous step, but with two or four sections in sequence, with a short "stop and think" break between each one.
Repeat the previous step, but with the stepping stones on the floor as a path. She should play with a stop, step, think pause between each one.
Repeat the previous step, but with the stepping stones face down (no words or icons, just colours.
Repeat with a shorter Stop/Step/Think pause.
Repeat the previous step, but hide one of the stepping stones beneath a newspaper or magazine so that she no longer has the colour clue.
Repeat the previous step, but hide two stepping stones.
Repeat, hiding three.
Repeat, hiding all four.
Pick up all the stepping stones and newspapers and make a big show of putting down 'invisible stepping stones.' "Here's a pink one! Now for a yellow...." Challenge her to play and walk along the invisible path.
Next challenge her to play while standing still and imagining walking along the invisible stepping stones.
Each day when you practice, back up one or two stages in this progression from where you left off the previous day, and start moving forward again.

This approach almost always works beautifully and very quickly. I honestly can't remember it ever NOT working with a student. And the metaphor of a mental journey along a path is something the kids seem to internalize and transfer to other repertoire with increasing ease.

Hope that helps!

Miranda


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## RiverMamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
When he does play he'll only play "fiddle tunes" - his own wild improvisations or his easiest songs. We were having so much fun before, I'd appreciate any advice to get us back on track.

Hi, I'm new to this thread. I was a suzuki violin kid from age 6. My DD is only 6mo, but shows allot of interest in music of all kinds, & LOVES to be in the sling under my fiddle when we are performing. (getting a little big for it these days though, & grabbing the bow now to!) Anyways, ShanaT, I too was one of those kids that only wanted to play fiddle tunes (that _is_ all I do now, DH & I are a celtic duet,) but I stuck to suzuki 'till I was 12, & classical 'till I was 19 (then I moved to Scotland for 2yrs... they converted me for good
 






) Anyways, to keep me on my classical track (wich I think is important even if he does become just a fiddler,) my parents used the fiddle tunes themselves as incintive. Basicly, If I worked on my suzuki lessons, I _got_ to learn a fiddle tune too! Of course sometimes pizza bribes were necicary to get good practice in too... but... the fiddle tunes were defonitly good encouragment. I hope this helps at all. Good Luck! BTW, maby try telling him that it is _building_ not breaking his brain?


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## RiverMamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixilixi* 

Anyway, my question for some of you experienced muso's - I am thinking about learning violin myself (at the ripe old age of 31). I have been a bit put off by some people's responses, but then, others have been encouraging. I love the sound of the instrument myself, and love celtic music, so I'd love to try. I guess the other thing is that I would like ds to see me playing music as well as dh, and eventually for ds to learn an instrument to play with us. Can anyone give me some encouraging words of wisdom?

Do it! Do it! Do it! Go for it girl!!!!!!!!! You are _never_ too old to learn music!!!!!! I have a fiew students who are kids (I work allot more on classical w/ them,) but most of my students are mid 20's to mid 30's & either picking it up for the first time or picking it back up after giving it up in childhood. I have one student who is 50 & she is awesome!!! She started at 35 w/ a teacher who told her she was too old (ironicly, my first teacher,) and so she gave it up thinking she was too old







Then she saw my fliers which quote "you are never too old to learn music" and has been taking lessons from me for about 2yrs now & is doing Great!!!!!! Most of the adults I work with are interested in pretty much just the fiddle tunes (mostly celtic, some bluegrass) so I cater to that. I give them classical technique, but we mostly just learn fiddle tunes. After all, I firmly believe that music should be fun, so go ahead, find a fiddle teacher, screach away & have FUN!!!!!!! Oh, and don't be so hard on yourself either, adults tend to be way too self critical. I have a 31yo student right now who is doing _amazing_ for the short time he's been playing, but has some serious self esteme issues. He want's to quit after 4mo cuz he's not a virtuoso yet! We had a good long talk the other day, I _really_ hope he shows up to his lesson tonight. It takes time & Love, you have to give it that


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
...Hope that helps!

Woot! That was exactly what I needed. It's such a challenge for me to remember that things can be broken down even further than what I'm already thinking are baby steps. Baby steps! How many times have I already written that in this thread?! Anyhow thank you so much for the suggestion. I wanted a piece with a fresh start so we are tackling Gavotte sections now. And what a long path Gavotte is! She's loving it and proudly showed it off to her dad this evening. I'm going to try to move it very gradually along. Where we've been is NOT pretty and I don't want to be back there.

She did some work on Musette this evening and wow that's one heck of a bow piece. She wants desperately to slur the eighth notes and separate the quarters - and we're just working the first line. Does a dramatically slower tempo help? I tend to be a big picture thinker and sometimes slowing down gets me lost, but maybe it's good for others? Anyhow in case anyone has some Musette tips or advice that might save us some grief







:

Oh, and just a bit of lamenting here:
When does the resilience kick in? DD gets so easily frustrated and then stuck in it. I try hard to help her along. I suggest breaks and that we'll return to it later but that suggestion frustrates her. I try very hard to keep it light and goofy without demeaning her. But she just goes there so much and entirely on her own. I don't know if somehow I might be contributing to it. But of all the gifts that Suzuki gave me, the one I was aware of very early on was how I had learned that practice works. Mistakes are part of practice and we make mistakes. We work to correct them and with time the mistakes get less frequent until they disappear and we're just in the heart song groove and that's where the honey is. This willingness to make mistakes and try again is one of the wisdoms I'm hoping DD develops on this musical journey - but I'm having trouble with being patient while she gets there. We can't get better if we are crying about how frustrated we are! Anyone else experience this?


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## kananaskismama

Hi - I'm new to this thread. I took the parent course for Suzuki piano and was planning on enrolling my DD in piano lessons this fall. DD turned 3 in July and is very precocious. Still, I wonder if she is too young to start Suzuki piano.

The other main contributing factor is that we don't have a piano. This is an affordability question - we simply can't afford one right now. I grew up playing the organ and we have one in our house but I don't think it would be suitable to practice on.

My concern and question is - is it better to start at age 3 or will it be alright to wait to start when she is 4? Many of the children enrolled here are just 3.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kananaskismama* 
My concern and question is - is it better to start at age 3 or will it be alright to wait to start when she is 4? Many of the children enrolled here are just 3.

Hey there neighbour! (Noticing your handle ... I'm in the Kootenays, just on the other side of the Rockies from you I'd guess....)

If you have any doubt, I'd wait. Get all your ducks in a row, make sure your dd is ready. I honestly don't see any advantage in starting at 3 vs. 4. Personally I don't start 3-year-olds unless they're the younger sibling of an older Suzuki child and are begging for their own lessons and it is beginning to feel cruel to put them off. In that case we can start with 'piggy-back' lessons, giving the 3-year-old 5 or 10 minutes at the beginning of the older sibling's lesson, with no specific expectations of focus or progress, just going with whatever they seem ready for.

Start listening to a CD, start sussing out instrument possibilities, go and observe group classes or recitals from time to time. You won't lose anything waiting another year for actual lessons, IMO.

Miranda


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## ShanaT

Thanks Shifra and RiverMama! I just ordered "In the Suzuki Style". We haven't come out of our lull yet, but I'm hopeful.
Thanks for all your advice.

Right now I'm struggling with whether to stick with our current teacher and have lessons at 4PM and group monthly at 5:30 (They're not at their best in late afternoon and I'll be driving home in traffic) or change teachers to get better lesson times and weekly group lessons. DS is reluctant to switch, he likes his teacher and friends, but he thrives on the group lessons and monthly might not be enough for him. I also feel guilty switching, but I guess its business.
Maybe I should figure out who is better prepared to deal with his "fiddle-side".
I think he might really be tired of Twinkle and frustrated because he could play it before and can't now that he hasn't played consistently over the summer.


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## insahmniak

What do you do when you're on the road?

We're going to be out for 10 days. DD's book 1 grad recital is 10 days after we get back. I really don't want to be out of the loop for that long, especially that close to the recital. So I'm thinking of bringing her violin with us. Honestly I'm a bit nervous about traveling with it. It's a fairly expensive (for us) rental that we really love and the thought of carrying it everywhere we go - well maybe we should pick up some backpack straps. Anyhow, I'm thinking of risking it anyway and bringing my very inexpensive fiddle along, as when DD practices I usually play some along with her - it seems to help a lot to not be the only one playing.

DD will be playing piano, too, at the recital, and that's definitely needing more work at this point. So I'd like to try hooking up with a piano to play on.

We'll be in San Francisco - tagging along while DP is at a conference. I'm thinking of trying to find music stores she can go and play in - some with practice or teaching rooms that they might rent to me. I could maybe get her to do some busking if I'm lucky and only if I play the duet parts with her (she doesn't have a very strong nerve just yet). I'd even love to get her a master class with someone but that seems like a far out possibility.

Well - in case you want to share how you handle not dropping the ball when you're on the road I'd be interested in hearing about that.


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
Right now I'm struggling with whether to stick with our current teacher and have lessons at 4PM and group monthly at 5:30 (They're not at their best in late afternoon and I'll be driving home in traffic) or change teachers to get better lesson times and weekly group lessons. DS is reluctant to switch, he likes his teacher and friends, but he thrives on the group lessons and monthly might not be enough for him. I also feel guilty switching, but I guess its business.

4pm would be really bad for us too and I've avoided afternoon lessons so far simply because of afternoon meltdown issues. Now if our current teacher whom we ADORE would have some kind of schedule restriction I'm afraid I'd still stick with her, though, and give afternoons a chance. But that's simply because I can just about guarantee that we have the best teacher in the area for my daughter's (heart/music) needs. So I guess I'd evaluate how this current teacher fits with you and your son and before even considering switching I'd go observe a new potential teacher at least a few times (and definitely by myself - not with DD). Changing teachers when we have a great match is something I wouldn't do without doing a lot of homework first. I'm really picky about teachers, though. I remember from my own experience as a youngster how different lessons can feel with different people.

Perhaps you can give afternoons a chance and just see how they go? Maybe give yourself a ton of support by having special brain and energy snacks before lesson, and maybe a little quiet time in the afternoon before hand. You might end up cultivating a different rhythm and could be surprised with how well afternoon lessons can go.

About groups, I'd love to go more than once a month, too. But with less frequent ones they'll probably never lose their charm. So there's that. If you're really drawn by the frequent group lessons could you go observe those, too? There could be something about the weekly group that doesn't sit right with you, or they could be really awesome and that could help you decide.

I guess my advice boils down to this: before making changes I'd want to observe a lot before deciding anything.


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## ShanaT

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
I guess my advice boils down to this: before making changes I'd want to observe a lot before deciding anything.

That's good advice. I think that 4 and 5:30 could work for DS, but I have to bring DS2 along also and they're just awful times of day for him. I think I'll probably give it a try. I do want to observe another teachers group lesson before making a decision. I like who we're with, but she just took a job at a university and is only doing Suzuki 1 day a week. I kind of feel like its not really her first priority anymore and there's no scheduling flexibility at all.
What do you consider a good "brain snack"? We'll be needing those!
Of course he still won't play twinkle, but his crazy fiddle tunes are becoming not so crazy and are starting to sound pretty real and kind of nice, so he's learning, just not the way anyone else intends for him to.


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## RiverMamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
What do you do when you're on the road?
I could maybe get her to do some busking if I'm lucky and only if I play the duet parts with her (she doesn't have a very strong nerve just yet). .

Busking, absolutly! Busking is the best way to travel period. Play with her, but let her keep all the change she makes to spend on something she wants! Talk to her about beeing very carefull w/ her instrument while on the road if you don't have a clunker to take. I have a _really_ nice instrument that lives at my moms house a state away (I never play it.







) And then, I have my junker fiddle,







it goes up mountains, down rivers, across oceans, in to pubs, down the road, & arround the world. (It even flipped in a class 4 rapid once!) What's that saying about the difference between a fiddle & a violin? You can spill beer on a fiddle!







Anyways, I don't know what to tell you about the piano, sounds like you have some good ideas though. Have fun in San Fransisco!


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverMamma* 
Busking, absolutly! Busking is the best way to travel period. Play with her, but let her keep all the change she makes to spend on something she wants!

Oh, you sound so enthusiastic about busking! Keep in mind this a 5 year old who's just starting Hunter's Chorus. She's very much musical and you can see that in her when she plays so that makes her really fun to watch. But still! Got any tips - um....advice? How do you get up the nerve to put your music out there in public when you haven't been asked? Ok. So I guess I'm a little nervous too!

How does one go about picking a good location? I see your location is CO so you might be familiar with Pearl St in Boulder. I could see doing that place pretty easily. Might not get much (lots of competition!) but the street just cries out for busking so you don't end up feeling quite so much like a sore thumb. Does google map have a "busking site" option?


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## moominmamma

My kids tend to only busk on our 'home turf,' because there we know the unwritten rules about where to be and what's allowed / appreciated. My kids busk when they're enthusiastic to do so ... generally motivated by money, but sometimes just riding high on the burgeoning feeling of a new level of mastery. They make up their own play lists and motivate themselves to get out there. I'm not sure I'd ever nudge / push / persuade a kid to busk; it's a very uncontrolled environment. I'd rather they build their enthusiasm for performing through situations where all their ducks are in a row ... an appreciative attentive audience, no distractions, proper rehearsals, accompaniment support, etc.. Then, once they're enthusiastic performers, by all means, let them start busking if they want.

When we travel we try to ramp up the listening, knowing that on-instrument time will be limited or non-existent. If we do bring the instruments, I'm happy if they get played every other day for 10 minutes. We have practice mutes for hotel playing. I'm thinking of buying a Yamaha silent violin for my eldest, because she spends the day and a half surrounding her lessons in a hotel and it would be nice for her to be able to practice / warm up / try out her lesson assignments before we hop in the van and spend a (no-practicing) day in travel to get home.

Miranda


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## RiverMamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Oh, you sound so enthusiastic about busking! Keep in mind this a 5 year old who's just starting Hunter's Chorus. She's very much musical and you can see that in her when she plays so that makes her really fun to watch. But still! Got any tips - um....advice? How do you get up the nerve to put your music out there in public when you haven't been asked? Ok. So I guess I'm a little nervous too!

How does one go about picking a good location? I see your location is CO so you might be familiar with Pearl St in Boulder. I could see doing that place pretty easily. Might not get much (lots of competition!) but the street just cries out for busking so you don't end up feeling quite so much like a sore thumb. Does google map have a "busking site" option?









Well, beeing a Leo, I guess I'v always Loved beeing on stage, so it wasn't a challenge at all for my mom to get me out there. Money might be an incentive maby? I don't really have any advice on stage fright other than _everyone_ gets it & it's a healthy thing & usually goes away once your bow hit's the string.

As far as places to busk, usually those pirfect places like pearl st. are not such pirfect places. As you guessed, not allot of money to be made there. (But a great practice place nonetheless! I'v seen suzuki kids out there plenty, & they usually draw a bigger croud than us "profesionals." I think it's the cute factor.) Aspen though, right infront of the "no soliciting" sign will make us a fiew hundred in just a fiew hours.
I have traveld all over busking, (bought a oneway ticket to London when I was 19, arrived w/ a backpack, a fiddle & $300.) I find that you just have to scope the teritory, sometimes you get asked to "move allong" and sometimes you draw a croud. A really good way to do it is to find a nice little coffe shop or cafe with a patio & ask if you can play (often times it will get you lunch as well!)


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## RiverMamma

insahmniak, you reminded me of a poem I wrote at the point in my life when I was in Scotland, & rediscovering music through Celtic tunes. I just dug it up...

Adventures
of the rambling rover
Lessons
of the student learned

"You must be brave!"
sais the little old lady
to me with eyes wide
& a hand, in sympathy extended

I smile at her marvel
accept her sympathy
and the coin in my case
an exchange for gratitude & music

Adventures
of fallowing Godly Guidence
that crazy voice
always fluttering in my heart

Lessons
of facing fears
standing in the thick of it all
staring fear right in the face

Playing
that which wells in my soul
the music that brought me here
the music that I so greatly fear

I suppose I must be brave
to stand here & play all day
to all those who would her
of that which I most greatly fear.


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## greencat

I have 6.5 yr. old who is finishing up the book I.

She wants some violin/theory workbook. She is working on "I can read music" and loves it. Does anyone has recommendation???

Thanks,
greencat


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## RiverMamma

Do it! If she want's to read, by all means help her read!!! That is my one regret from beeing raised suzuki, I am not a strong reader. I believe that having an ear is more impartant, but I also believe that reading is an essential skill.


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## greencat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverMamma* 
Do it! If she want's to read, by all means help her read!!! That is my one regret from beeing raised suzuki, I am not a strong reader. I believe that having an ear is more impartant, but I also believe that reading is an essential skill.

Thank you for your support. I'm not at all a strong music reader. Do you (or anyone else) have recommendation to which work book that may be fun for her at this age?

Her group class teacher is going to introduce the game, "Musopoly." I am also thinking about purchesing the game for home use. I tried to read the book before, but it is a monster to tackle for someone who has no music training. I'm hoping the book is for the teachers to get the most use out of the game. Not so???


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## moominmamma

The Theory Time workbooks are the best I've ever seen in this vein.

My 5yo has been through "I Can Read Music" book 1 and is now well into Book 2. (And was thrilled to work with Joanne Martin this past summer and get her autograph on her ICRM book!) I think reading should be introduced at the end of book 1, as soon as posture and by-ear skills are well entrenched. Depending on the child's age/readiness they may 'dabble' in reading for a couple of years or move forward full-force.

Miranda


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## onelittleone

Just saying hello and will be following this thread ... my DD also started violin at 3 - she's 4 now. She LOVES it. We don't practice as often as we should but she really has developed an ear. We decided on Suzuki so I could learn as well. We are having a great time. Working on lightly row currently!


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## Bird Girl

Welcome. Lightly Row can be a welcome break from A-E-1-E!

We've never done busking here, in the SF Bay Area. But as a kid, I did it plenty. I'm not sure what the difference is--it seems too close to panhandling here, when we have so many people doing that, and less like the charming kid out with their empty case.


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## ShanaT

We're starting Lightly Row this week! Definitely ready for a break from Twinkle. Our Teacher also started using Swallowtail Jig as a reward for playing Twinkle variations. DS just loves to accompany her on it. His face just lit up when she first played it and he said "I know THAT song!"
We're still struggling to get back into a practice routine, but I'm finding he'd rather play for me when I'm cleaning the kitchen or something like that, rather than playing with him or paying close attention. I guess it works. I thought he enjoyed the complete attention of practice time.


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## greencat

I'm so, excited (may be more than the kids.) I got the box of my oders yesterday. In it, I have the game, Musopoly. How do you or your kids like the game, if you have played it before?

The Music Mind Game is very, very interesting, but her book is intimidating, since I dont' have much of music/theory back ground. However, I saw the new, "Puppy Packet" on line.

If you buy the Puppy Packet, can you just jump in and start working with the kit without reading the book? (please, please, please, say, yes. and, say somthing like 'the book is for teachers and student who are on book 7 to get most out of the game' --or something like that; tee hee... )

By the way, if any of you are interested, I have "I Love To Practice Kit" for Book 1 (for violin.) There should be another one for Book 2, as well as one for Suzuki Cello students. It's a great kit, and we love them a lot! I didn't buy the kit until my DD was more than half way through the Book 1, but, now, she helps her brother, (age 4, finishing 'Lightly Row') with it.


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
I'm so, excited (may be more than the kids.) I got the box of my oders yesterday. In it, I have the game, Musopoly. How do you or your kids like the game, if you have played it before?

The Music Mind Game is very, very interesting, but her book is intimidating, since I dont' have much of music/theory back ground. However, I saw the new, "Puppy Packet" on line.

If you buy the Puppy Packet, can you just jump in and start working with the kit without reading the book? (please, please, please, say, yes. and, say somthing like 'the book is for teachers and student who are on book 7 to get most out of the game' --or something like that; tee hee... )

We got the Puppy Packet online and have had a great deal of fun with it, without the book. There are tons of MMG videos online in case you're looking for suggestions. I think they're youtube but not remembering for sure. Do you have a university near you? I've checked the book out from our local university library to get some ideas too. But I'd say given what you can see online the book isn't absolutely necessary.


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## insahmniak

DD's Book 1 violin graduation recital happens in less than two weeks and we've suffered a couple losses. One is huge, the other is just logistics.

DD's dear dear piano teacher passed away very unexpectedly. DD had been taking piano lessons since earlier this year and had adored her teacher. We all did. She was steeped in Suzuki and raised seven kids in it. They even had lessons with Kataoka. She was a tremendous gift to the community and will be greatly missed.

The piano teacher had graciously offered to let us use her studio for DD's violin/piano recital week after next. We are left trying to figure out a couple of things. One, should we include the piano pieces without the teacher? This doesn't feel right to me, but I can't articulate why exactly. I do know that without the teacher to guide us in preparing these last two weeks we don't feel prepared. I feel she was essential to it happening well.

Two, should I have the recital at our home? We don't have much of a good space or nice piano for the accompanist, but it'd do and DD would probably feel much better playing here rather than someplace she's not familiar with. Then again, it could be "too" familiar and she'd have an audience (about 10 family friends) but wouldn't be in her performance shoes. KWIM? Her violin teacher would be here and that could take care of some of that, but still I worry that she'd be too casual and then not play well, play goofy, or not even play at all. I feel like that's not as likely to happen in a different/foreign venue.

Thanks for listening and any ideas. It's been a rough week here and I could use some encouragement.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, the show really must go on. My mom has tickets to fly in from quite a ways off. My mother put me through 12 years of Suzuki violin, starting from age 5, and I'm ever so grateful. For her to see my daughter play this graduation is something I've been wanting to happen. So I do want it to happen. I just have to figure out how.


----------



## greencat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
We got the Puppy Packet online and have had a great deal of fun with it, without the book. There are tons of MMG videos online in case you're looking for suggestions. I think they're youtube but not remembering for sure. Do you have a university near you? I've checked the book out from our local university library to get some ideas too. But I'd say given what you can see online the book isn't absolutely necessary.

Oh! That is what I wanted to hear!! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Q: what book should I look at University library? Some titles will be helpful.


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## greencat

We are also planning the Book 1 recital and Twinkle graduation recital with my dd and ds. The details are not figured out yet which I am getting a bit worried.

We are very sorry for your loss. I can only imagine your sorrow and feeling of abcence. I have no experience in loosing anyone where I depended for strength; especially when "the show had to go on." Though, I can relate to the time when our first teacher, Martha left. We were absolutely in love with Martha. (I should say, "In Mental Harmony" with Martha.) After she had to go live with her sister in far away, we did grow into the next teacher who took her place. However, with up hill in many issues. We now have a different teacher who we grow under and very happy. We are still good friends with the previous teacher.

I can also relate to the situation where you have to cope with an occasion without the person who you held dear. When I was expecting my second child, I couldn't get my midwife who delivered my first to come deliver my second as I wanted. I had to find a different midwife. It was hard to accept the fact that Molly couldn't come for us, but I had to work with a midwife who had to step up to take Molly's place (they were friends.)

It took a lot of talking about many issues over our concerns to be on the same page. It all worked out at the end, but it only worked because we had a same wish: To deliver the baby at home with loving attention. And, I am very thankful for her.

So, I'll say you must to keep your focus on what is this recital for, and what do you wish your child to remember out of this glorious occasion? And, do the best to meet that wish. Deciding the details of the recital with your daughter, together may also help her in time of feeling a great loss. I think children are often more honest in telling you how they feel, and what they want, if you ask or give them an opportunity to do so. I think open-ended question is a good way to start discussions. Hope all will go well.

With Love,


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
We are very sorry for your loss. I can only imagine your sorrow and feeling of abcence. I have no experience in loosing anyone where I depended for strength; especially when "the show had to go on." Though, I can relate to the time when our first teacher, Martha left. We were absolutely in love with Martha. (I should say, "In Mental Harmony" with Martha.) After she had to go live with her sister in far away, we did grow into the next teacher who took her place. However, with up hill in many issues. We now have a different teacher who we grow under and very happy. We are still good friends with the previous teacher.
...
So, I'll say you must to keep your focus on what is this recital for, and what do you wish your child to remember out of this glorious occasion? And, do the best to meet that wish. Deciding the details of the recital with your daughter, together may also help her in time of feeling a great loss. I think children are often more honest in telling you how they feel, and what they want, if you ask or give them an opportunity to do so. I think open-ended question is a good way to start discussions. Hope all will go well.

With Love,

Thank you for your kind words. We may have found a new venue and DD has determined she still wants to play a couple of the piano pieces. One piano piece will be Twinkle with Alberti bass, which I think may be a challenge for me to get through with dry eyes. But it'll be a nice tribute. We'll dedicate the recital to her and maybe say a few words.

As for whether or not to continue with piano, that's been a difficult decision. Our piano teacher's daughter has offered to take on her mother's students and has room for us, but the lessons will be held in her mother's studio and that will be hard for me - I'm not sure how it would be for my daughter. I think we could move past that after a while, but I'm sure the first few times would be difficult.

Doing the two instruments at once has proven to be challenging. One of the challenges is about having started violin so much earlier (relatively) than piano. It is definitely more difficult for her to feel as competent with piano and she becomes frustrated very easily when she practices. When we sit down to practice - of her own volition - she literally throws her hand at the piano keys, as if she just can't be bothered to try to have a good hand posture/shape. She does this very, very deliberately. I calmly and matter of factly respond with, "If you're not ready for this right now let's just come back to it later." But then she immediately cries and grabs at my clothes and tells me she wants to play. Gah. I'm pretty sure it's tied to how she feels about her playing. She's expressing a conflict, right, about wanting to play but being afraid of "trying" to play...? I feel very encouraging and try not to put pressure on her at all. I don't know how to change my approach but there's probably a lot I could be doing differently.

There are other issues at stake here, but mostly what I'm seeing is that she does seem to want to play. She does play willingly, without prompting. I'm not married to the idea of her continuing piano right now, but neither do I want to communicate to her that I don't believe in her ability to work through this steep learning curve. I feel like we're in a challenging spot, and it sure would feel so easy to just take this opportunity to end the piano lessons.


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## greencat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Thank you for your kind words. We may have found a new venue and DD has determined she still wants to play a couple of the piano pieces. One piano piece will be Twinkle with Alberti bass, which I think may be a challenge for me to get through with dry eyes. But it'll be a nice tribute. We'll dedicate the recital to her and maybe say a few words.

That sounds wonderful. I did not ask for the date of your recital, but I wish you the best, and the day to be the very beautiful to remeber.

greencat


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
That sounds wonderful. I did not ask for the date of your recital, but I wish you the best, and the day to be the very beautiful to remeber.

greencat

Thank you. It's in a couple of days and we're glad to be finally getting there. I have the programs written up and the flowers ordered for the teachers. We'll take the piano teacher's flowers to her studio after the recital. I've been told family will be there.

DD has put so much effort into preparing. And aside from some typical five year old stuff she's been wonderful to work with. The other day we sat down to play Lightly Row on piano and worked on R Hand, L Hand, then hands together. She did something she'd never done before: she played it all through hands together without a single hiccup or pause or missed note. It was utterly perfect and I was so stunned. This is quite an accomplishment for her and I was so proud of her that I actually teared up. At that moment I knew that however she played at the recital it wouldn't particularly matter. That one moment reminded me that from where I sit I have the best view in the house. I'm present for the day to day challenges and I witness the accomplishments as they happen. As challenging as it can be sometimes, I wouldn't trade it for the world.


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## insahmniak

Well there's been a lot of Suzuki-related drama at my place and I'm sorry - it has seemingly hijacked the thread. I feel bad about that.

How about something new?
Anyone want to talk about Halloween group lesson ideas? Have any favorites?


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## greencat

We have Halloween Play-In for group lesson. This will be our third year to do this. This is also a time for moms to compete for our cooking-creativity with creepy foods, since each family is bringing treats for a party afterwards. This group lesson is also open to the public. Therefore, many extended families come with camera/recording device.

Last year, we decorated our recital hall with giant spiders made from black garbage bags and red plastic cups, skeletons made from empty milk jugs, black light bulbs, gauze and webs hanging from ceiling, etc.

I don't think we'll have anything elaborate this year, though: Just the costume and junk food party afterwards.


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## moominmamma

If we happen to have a group class on or right before Hallowe'en, we usually do a couple of special things to celebrate. We play "Witches' Dance" of course, but we usually do the "dance", which involves kicking legs in can-can style on the accented notes, spinning a circle on the cadential triplets and a few other silly things. And then we usually do "spooky Twinkles" ... for example, playing simultaneous versions of Twinkle a half-step apart, play sul ponto or a weird technique that I'm not sure what it's called where you play close to the frog using more of a fist bow-hold and move the bow with lots of pressure parallel to the strings rather than perpendicular.

Miranda


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Anyone want to talk about Halloween group lesson ideas? Have any favorites?

My Book 1 group likes to play "Spooky Rhody". (Aunt Rhody in a minor) And we like to mess around with spooky sounds. Sometimes we do spooky sounds in the dark! I like to have them play Twinkle with spooky sounds during the half notes, or with tremolo or riccoche bows.

I have a few families that don't celebrate Halloween, so we don't do any full-blown Halloween party.


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
a weird technique that I'm not sure what it's called where you play close to the frog using more of a fist bow-hold and move the bow with lots of pressure parallel to the strings rather than perpendicular.


I don't know if that has a real name - we always called it "cow tones".


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## ChetMC

I hope it's okay if I ask a question outside the current topic of discussion.

Our DD started Suzuki viola about 6 weeks ago. I feel like we started her too late, or maybe just at the wrong time.

At 2 and 3 years old DD was focused. She'd sit through a two hour concert or ballet no problem. She watched everything and took it all in. Her fine motor skills were great. She held a pencil correctly at 14 months. She could peel an orange before she was three. She did best in one-on-one and small group activities. DH's family is very musical. I thought a stringed instrument would be a good thing for her to try.

However, we didn't actually get her started with Suzuki until she was 4. And lately she's been generally frigidity, wiggly, unfocused and silly. I admit that this annoys me and DH. We know that it's normal for 4 year olds, but she wasn't like this three months ago. DH does the lessons with her. He has more musical background than I do. He says that her teacher is patient, and not put off by her lack of concentration at times. The teacher says that both DD and DH are doing well, but I'm still wondering if we missed our window of opportunity on this, or if it just isn't a good fit for her.

She's still using the practise/butterbox instrument that her and DH made. She is improving with the exercises, but slowly. We have heard her hum the tunes, and incorporate the musical phrasing from the songs on the CD into songs she makes up... though not a lot. I was encouraged last weekend when she spontaneously started singing the song her teacher sings to DS at the bus stop.

She never protests going to her lesson. She often wants to draw pictures or make things for her teacher. It's no problem to get her to practice the exercises for a few minutes at a time provided we pick the RIGHT time to do it. I feel like this would have gone a lot better with her at 2.5 or 3 though.

I don't know what I'm looking for exactly with this post. Maybe some insight into what we should expect from a 4 year old Suzuki student. How long do we give this? How do we know if we should continue? Do all teachers start kids with a butterbox? How long do they typically practice before they move on to the real thing?


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## Stacymom

I gently chuckled at your post, and not because of anything you wrote, but because all of the behaviors your dd are exhibiting are completely normal and expected for a four year old in music lessons. I don't think that you've missed your window at all! There is always an adjustment period whena child starts formal lessons, imo, especially when they are young. Young children usually have never been in a situation where they work one one one with another adult before, and something as formal and structured as a music lesson is a brand new experience.

Its quite possible that she's still trying to figure out how the whole lesson thing works- trying to learn what's acceptable behavior and what's not, and how she's expected to act at lessons. Plus, what might seem like silly excercises to you or your dh are actually going to be quite involved for her physically and motor-skill wise, and sometimes young music students get rustrated and act silly or flat out refuse if they think its something that they might not be able to do.

Really though, your 4 year old sounds quite normal. I don't expect more than 5 or so minutes of practice daily for the first 5-6 months or so, depending on how fast the child moves. The first year of lessons for a young child is more about learning about lessons, learning to interact with the teacher, and learning to preactice everyday than it is about getting actual music out of the instrument. (And you will get music the first year- I promise!) I had a teacher trainer tell me that the first year is all about putting things into the child, and it isn't until late in the first year or early in the second that you start seeing results.

So, the real point of this very long winded post is to not give up yet! She's normal in every way, you haven't missed the boat on anything. I bet you'll graduate to a real instrument very soon, and that will provide a lot of enthusiasm and motivation to you and your dd. Good luck!


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## moominmamma

ChetMC I second everything Stacymom has said. Totally normal. If you'd started at 2 1/2 or 3, you'd likely still be dealing with some of these "4-year-old" issues now. Kids grow and change and new wiggles and distractions and motivation humps come up as they do. It's totally normal.

I start any kid under 9 on a box. How long they stay on it depends on numerous factors -- age, focus, care, progress with posture tasks, the presence or absence of a cohort of other box-playing peers, whether there are older siblings already on 'real instruments,' etc. etc.. Ideally I susually aim to keep a 4-year-old on a box for about 12 lessons. Our current group of three beginners is getting twice-weekly master-class-like lessons, so those 12 lessons are almost done. These kids (aged 4, 5 and 6) now have their real bows and are using their real violins under teacher guidance at lessons, but won't be taking the actual instruments home to practice on until probably the end of next week (two more lessons). But every teacher is different.

I'm always thrilled to hear about little viola beginners! What size / type of 'real' viola will your dd be using? Have you figured that part out yet?

Miranda


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## ChetMC

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I'm always thrilled to hear about little viola beginners! What size / type of 'real' viola will your dd be using? Have you figured that part out yet?

Stacymom & Miranda, thank you both for your quick responses.

DH said that the teacher sized DD at her last lesson. He said that she would need a 1/64th size to start. That's sounds really small to me though. Maybe he meant 1/16th? He said that the instrument was insanely small!

When I mentioned to DH that I'd heard it could be hard to track down small instruments for beginners, and that I'd seen posts from parents scrambling to get tiny instruments, he told me that this particular teacher does it for the parents since she's the one who is connected with the community and can find what is needed the most easily. That's all we know at this point though.


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## greencat

Does your music school have a program like a String Orchestra for the advanced students who are able to read music? For an example, a friend of mine who attend different school from my kids belongs to the String Quartet. Their school have different string orchestra groups according to the level of skill. For an instance, a group of students who had completed at least the book one, and can read music will be invited to a group of “Young Discovery Orchestra.” This is separate from their group class. They are students of various age (and instruments) who play together as orchestra; not necessary from Suzuki book (most often not.) They come to the school for their private lesson, group lesson, and this orchestra meet (which means three times a week for some students.) My school currently does not have one. If you do, I would like to hear about it. Thanks.


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## moominmamma

Our "music school" is basically just me and my mom and our tiny cohort of students, but we do have ensemble components to what we do.

On group class nights, we have all the kids together for 20 minutes or so. They range in age from 4-16, and in level from pre-Twinkle to post-Book-10. We have them together for reasons of supportive community-building, even though it's a huge stretch to make the time relevent to both extremes. After that 20-minute get-together, the group of 7 advanced violinists and violists retreat to another room for an ensemble rehearsal. They're all Book 6+ and they're called "Summit Strings" and have matching golf shirts for performances -- they have grown a strong sense of ensemble identity and loyalty over the past year. They work on arrangements of various music, from folk tunes to Vivaldi to Dvorak, usually 3-4 part arrangements. We don't have an accompanist, so multi-part arrangements are a necessity, but also an opportunity for growth. The kids are often 1 or 2 to a part.

We also have a community string orchestra that is about two dozen people, including all of our Book 3+ students, adult amateurs and the three local string teachers. We don't have enough people to make orchestras at different levels, so we just have repertoire that spans different levels of difficulty, with the less advanced students leaving after we've rehearsed the easier stuff.

We also have one kid-quartet, made up of kids 12-14 who are quite evenly matched for ability and motivation. They're Book 6-7 level, though they started playing together whent they were finishing Book 4. We used to have two kid-quartets, but our older group's cellist and violist grew up and moved on. We have enough violinists for at least two more quartets, but don't have the cellists and violists to fill things out.

Miranda


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## ebethmom

I think we just found another teacher for our program! I teach in a smallish city (14,000), and the other violin teacher left this past summer. She was tired of the 3 hours round trip. I added a teaching day and had room for most of her students to my studio.

We had placed an ad in the SAA journal and got a few responses, but our program is small and we don't have enough students to have a teacher relocate. Then last week I got a call out of the blue from a college student who just moved to the town where I teach. She hasn't had any formal Suzuki training, but she is familiar with the method. She is so excited about teaching! And she's interested in Early Childhood classes, which is next on our list of things to add to our program.

I met with her today. Now we just need to rustle up some students for her.


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## moominmamma

That's great news Elizabeth. Hope everything works out well.

Miranda


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## RiverMamma

Hi, it's been a little while, just red up on what I'v missed. insahmniak, I just wanted to say that I too went througha similar thing as a kid... every piano teacher I ever had either died, retiered, or moved away. I finaly gave up & stuck to the violin. I don't know what to tell you about continuing or not, I kept trying to continue. It just never worked out.

Anyways, I have never even herd of a "box" I have always started my students on an instrument. I started at six on a real violin, I have started kids as young as four on real 1/32 sized violins. I plan on starting my DD on a real violin as young as possible. She is already facinated, and will move her bow arm in imitation.


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## greencat

If you can find a decent 1/32, and the child is willing to take lessons, I think being able to work with the real violin is a way to go. (However, 1/32 is small enough, and I really don't see a value in using or trying to find the 'insane' 1/64.) My DD started with 1/32, but I gave my DS the "Cherub Violin" made from cardboards to participate in a group lesson with my DD. He was not even 3 yrs. old at a time, and he was not enrolled in a class. DS used it to practice taking a bow, to learn parts of violin, resting position, etc. in the group class and at home with me.

Some teacher will help the student make the box-violin out of empty box, toilet paper core, etc which I think it is great. I ordered the Cherub Violin on the net, since it came with a wooden bow. My DS pretended to play Twinkle with it, but that was not the purpose of having the box-violin.


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## moominmamma

My mom has always started kids on boxes, and believed firmly in the practice. I always thought it was kind of contrived and mean to the kids to insist they use a pretend thing for their first dozen lessons or so, and if I used a box at all it was either just for a 2- or 3-year-old younger sibling who wanted to feel involved in the whole violin endeavour but wasn't ready for lessons, or to get started with kids who had an instrument on order.

But my mom moved to my town a few years ago and I had the privilege of watching her work with four new little beginners from the very beginning, and to follow them as they learned all the pre-Twinkle tasks. One had had a violin to play with for the previous six months and the other three started lessons afresh. All were on boxes for the first 12 lessons (they had two 45 minute lessons a week together as a small group, and their parents also got 30 minutes a week of instruction / support separately) and then moved to regular private lessons on a real violin. I'm now totally sold on the idea of starting on a box.

The kid who had had a violin at home had all the typical challenges of learning things which were awkward and unintuitive. Because her 'real violin' was so much fun to scrub around on, she had spent time doing so without first spending the requisite time mastering basic posture. So at the first lesson she was the kid whose box kept ending up in front of her shoulder, rather than atop it. She was the kid who grabbed the frog of the bow and had to be encouraged for weeks to soften her hand and not grab. She was the one whose bow arm moved side to side with a stiff elbow when she tried to "bow" the rhythms on her shoulder. These are all very typical issues with little beginners. I thought that teaching the proper way to do all these things was just the normal big challenge of teaching beginners.

But the three other kids (two of whom were very challenging personalities, I might add, so not all-round 'easy' kids) had almost none of these problems. Because the box presented no temptation to do more than what had been taught, they learned those first tasks beautifully on the first pass. They didn't try things their way and learn them wrong and then have to be taught to unlearn that way and relearn a new way ... because there wasn't the allure of scrubbing away on a real instrument to draw them forward.

So I think there is a very strong pedagogical argument for teaching a child on a box for a while at the beginning. My mom had been telling me so for years, but I had to see it in action to believe her. Particularly if it's possible to set up a situation where the child has a small cohort of peers doing the same, so that he doesn't feel like he is the only one now "allowed" a real violin, and the use of the box has feels normal to him.

RiverMama, I'm surprised you've never heard of a box. The use of a box in the early stages has been part of all the beginner level (1A) Suzuki teacher training courses I've done.

Miranda


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## RiverMamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
If you can find a decent 1/32, and the child is willing to take lessons, I think being able to work with the real violin is a way to go. (However, 1/32 is small enough, and I really don't see a value in using or trying to find the 'insane' 1/64.)

We looked at a 1/32 violin today, my mom just _had_ to see how long 'till it would fit my DD!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
So I think there is a very strong pedagogical argument for teaching a child on a box for a while at the beginning. My mom had been telling me so for years, but I had to see it in action to believe her. Particularly if it's possible to set up a situation where the child has a small cohort of peers doing the same, so that he doesn't feel like he is the only one now "allowed" a real violin, and the use of the box has feels normal to him.

RiverMama, I'm surprised you've never heard of a box. The use of a box in the early stages has been part of all the beginner level (1A) Suzuki teacher training courses I've done.

Miranda

I have a friend who has a violin shop, he was telling my mom about boxes reciently, she had never herd of them either. I was raised suzuki, (& her allong w/ me) but we are both kind of unothodox teachers. We will use suzuki material & methods, but lots of other stuff as well, & we both teach reading & theory from the get go. Also, most of my students are older, & interested in fiddling. My mom teaches public school, & does private lessons on the side. Her main focus has been Mariachi believe it or not. (she lives in New Mexico) Most of what I play now is Celtic, but will teach anything a student is interested in, and have myself floated through just about every genra there is.


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## ebethmom

I like to start my students on 'practice violins.' It gives them a chance to master sidedness. The left and right sides have such completely different tasks. Then they can focus on making a beautiful sound when they do have a real violin.

My younger students stay on the box until they master the Twinkle rhythms with elbow action. I like to use the Foam-a-lins that Young Musician carries. They are sturdy, and are shaped like real violins.

If I have a student who is losing interest in the box, I will try to move them on to the real violin more quickly.

When I start older beginners, I use other tools to help them master 'elbow action' bow arm. I use a paper towel tube and an old Glasser bow to make a 'straight bow machine.' The student threads the bow through the tube, then puts the tube on the left shoulder. The tube shows them how to open the elbow hinge instead of sawing.

I have to say, my own kids have no interest in the practice violin. They want the real thing!


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## RiverMamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
I use a paper towel tube and an old Glasser bow to make a 'straight bow machine.' The student threads the bow through the tube, then puts the tube on the left shoulder. The tube shows them how to open the elbow hinge instead of sawing.

Hey! That's a darn good idea! I like that!


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverMamma* 
Hey! That's a darn good idea! I like that!

I'm trying to remember where I saw this first . . . I think my friend Peggy Crowe used it. We were grad students together at Northern Illinois.

One tip, I do use an old worn out bow since the paper towel tubes are hard on bow hair. Also, a bow with fresh horse hair makes an scritchy sound that drives me nuts. It feels a little like fingernails on a chalkboard. _(shivers)_

I've been trying a new trick lately for students who are "elbow-action challenged." I tried out a happynex sling a few weeks ago and liked it pretty well. It's just a stretchy piece of cloth that ties in a knot. You thread it under the tailpiece or chinrest, then put your right arm through the loop so the sling holds your instrument on your shoulder. Your head and left hand are free of any holding responsibility.

I have a few students who just struggle with the bow arm action. I've had them rig a sling like happynex (little girl tights work well!). With the sling, you can lift your head and watch your right arm without adding any left hand tension.

For my own playing, I like to use the happynex every now and then. It is freeing to play without having to hold on anywhere. But the sling makes my right shoulder a bit sore. I wouldn't want to wear it in rehearsal, since my instrument would be up on my shoulder the entire time.

Now someone needs to figure out a sling that distributes the weight more evenly, instead of just around the right shoulder. I've found that if I loop the sling around my right breast, it's more comfortable.







But that look is NOT going public!!







I've thought about sewing a sling into a bra, then pulling the loop through the shirt neckhole. Probably something else that I wouldn't feel comfortable using outside my own practice room.


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## Yooper

Hi! I am new to this thread. I wish I had known about this before!!!!

Dd is 5 and has been in Suzuki violin since she was 3.5. She started on a box







Then she moved on to a 1/32 violin. Our program rents the instruments out as part of the lesson cost and they have several 1/32 violins. They advocate starting kids out at age 3, so there was a need. You are all right though, the D and G strings were pretty much unresponsive. Dd has been on a 1/16th for the last several months (she is a really tiny 5yo) and it is MUCH easier on the ears. So it has been 1.5 years and she is nearing the end of Book 1 (Minuet 2 right now).

There was no "shopping around" for teachers or programs here. We only have one. Luckily, we are happy with our arrangement. Our program does begin music reading earlier than most Suzuki programs so dd is in the Reading Orchestra this year.

My only issue with the program is how intensive it is. We are unschoolers so it is not like we have a lot of other things to do every week, but it just seems a little over scheduled for a 5yo. Each week dd has a 45 minute lesson, an one hour long orchestra practice, and at least one other thing. The "other thing" is a recital, recital practice, concert, concert practice, or "playing out" at a nursing home, event, or school. Add one hour of daily practice and it seems to be a very very big commitment. I cannot imagine throwing in school or any other activities with it.

Dd LOVES it though. I never "make" her do anything, let alone an optional instrument practice, but she is eager for violin time every day and gets totally geeked about going to lessons. I play the clarinet in our local symphony orchestra and dh plays drums in a rock band so she has been surrounded by music from day one.


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## moominmamma

Welcome Yooper! How fun to hear about another "senior little one" playing in an orchestra. My 5yo just started in an orchestra this past week and is thrilled. She's been waiting to be part of orchestra for at least two years. She's only playing 3 of the shorter easier pieces of the orchestra's larger repertoire but she's working eagerly away at them.

I agree that the scheduling and structure can seem like a lot to unschoolers. It only works for us because it's really the only structured thing we do. Your dd sounds like she has even more than mine, though. Our lessons are only 30 minutes, and group class and orchestra alternate weeks. Recitals come up only once or twice a year (we have no accompanist in the region) and group ensemble performances maybe four or five times a year. So not too much extra stuff. Though she's recently started piano ... and that's adding a new layer.

Miranda


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## greencat

It seems many Suzuki moms here on MDC like "I can read music."
My DD is working on its first book, and enjoys it a lot.

I purchased "Beginner Violin Theory for Children" by Melanie Smith for my DS who is 4, and its second book for my DD who is 6. This is a workbook to practice writing music symbols, etc. These workbooks are really easy, and you can zip through the whole book quickly, if you'd like. However, we are taking our time to appreciate each page.

We also have "Theory for Young Musicians, Games and Exercises to Enhance Music Skills" by Carla Ulbrich. It has many fun games that are perfect to use in a group.

I felt "All for Strings, Theory Workbook 1" by Gerald E. Anderson and Robert S. Frost is better for older children. It is written for string students, but got complicated fast; too fast for my 6.

We've had "Theory Time" for a long time, but just starting to get into it now. This workbook was hard for me to use, since I never studied piano. However, it became less intimidating, after we worked on "Naming White Keys" and "Lines and Spaces Note Speller" which are mini series of workbooks for piano students from Meil A Kjos Music Company. There are 6 thin workbooks for beginner piano students: Very easy to use, and they were perfect for us to start piano which now also helps with Theory Time and understanding key signatures. (by the way, I just ordered flash cards for key signatures from Alfred Publishing. I'll write my review on this later.)

Over the summer, I bought "Disney Solos for Violin." This music book came with a CD that you can choose a track 'with melody cue' or 'accompaniment only'. My DD does not play with the CD, since it is too fast for her, yet. However, she loves the fact that she can play her favorite Disney Princess music on her own violin now. We used this book for her to practice reading music. A bit of fun added, away from Suzuki for the summer while we had no group lessons. I chose this book because she likes Disney Princess, the music was written for violin, and came with accompaniment CD.


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## Yooper

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Welcome Yooper! How fun to hear about another "senior little one" playing in an orchestra. My 5yo just started in an orchestra this past week and is thrilled. She's been waiting to be part of orchestra for at least two years. She's only playing 3 of the shorter easier pieces of the orchestra's larger repertoire but she's working eagerly away at them.

I agree that the scheduling and structure can seem like a lot to unschoolers. It only works for us because it's really the only structured thing we do. Your dd sounds like she has even more than mine, though. Our lessons are only 30 minutes, and group class and orchestra alternate weeks. Recitals come up only once or twice a year (we have no accompanist in the region) and group ensemble performances maybe four or five times a year. So not too much extra stuff. Though she's recently started piano ... and that's adding a new layer.

Miranda

I am coming to grips with it. It is the only major structured activity we do. Dd is also in an ice skating class that I REALLY wish she would lose interest in. It is at a bad time for our family and I have nightmares about her turning into one of those skating divas that need to be at the cold rink at 4am







: Not really a legitimate fear....but yeah.

Maybe I am just a slacker









Anyway, dd had a recital last night. It was a Halloween recital and they had to wear their costumes. Dd was a ghost and I was terrified that she would not be able to see well and trip on the way to the stage. All was fine though. She could not make eye contact with the accompanist so that was tricky, but she got through it OK. I love watching the really little ones do their Twinkles. There was also one girl that graduated from book 10 recently that did an unaccompanied Mendelson concerto that was quite impressive. They did their recital at a nursing home so there was a HUGE crowd. Good practice.

I have to take dd to my own orchestra practice next week because dh will be out of town on business and we could not find a sitter. It might be fun for her to sit in the wind section and see what it is like to be in a big orchestra.


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## greencat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
They did their recital at a nursing home so there was a HUGE crowd. Good practice.

Great idea!


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## Yooper

It is actually a perfect option. Most nursing homes have a large dining room (or other large room) with plenty of chairs, a tuned piano, a very appreciative audience, and the space is free









We have about half of our events in nursing homes.


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## insahmniak

I agree - what a great idea for a recital venue! I'm going to mention that to our teacher.

I'm currently dealing with the issue of learning bowing. DD can pick things up very very quickly by ear. As a result, she stars playing pieces of pieces that are down the road - sometimes much further down the road. It's been cute and fun and I've enjoyed hearing her, but we've had some issues with having to "relearn" the bowing parts of pieces. It's tough! She already knows the notes and frankly doesn't seem to care one whit about the bowing.

It's gotten to the point that I'm not playing the upcoming recorded pieces for her because I'm afraid she's going to jump ahead while I'm doing dishes or something and I won't get a chance to help her with the bowing.

To be honest this "fixing the bow" part exhausts me!


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## Yooper

Is it possible to look at the bowings ahead of time and play singing games with them? Dd likes to singing the songs either the the notes or the bowings in the tune. Like in Minuet I she sings "D D D" or "down up-up down....." It sounds complicated but it gets catchy after awhile. "Jingle Bells" and "Carole of the Bells" are especially fun when singing the bowings.....can you tell we are working on the Holiday concert music? I catch myself doing it and I am not a string player.....


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## greencat

How do you like the "Suzuki Journal," the bi-monthly mag from SAA?


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## ebethmom

There are always great articles in the SAA quarterly journal. I wish all of my students' parents would read it!

There have been times when I had to let my SAA membership lapse. Just couldn't fit it in the budget! I really missed getting the journal during those times. It helps me stay connected with the rest of the Suzuki community.


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## Malva

Hello everyone,

I'm not a true Suzuki mama but I'm hoping someone here can maybe help me. My 9yo dd started piano in September this year with a teacher who is very Suzuki inspired in her methods.

She's been playing Cuckoo and Lightly Row with both hands for the last few weeks and the thing we're working on this week is playing the right hand louder than the left one. So far, she's having no luck managing that and I'm wondering if any of you have tips on how to break it down. I've been having her playing both hands lightly thinking it's probably easier to increase the intensity on one side than decrease it on one side but I don't play myself so I don't know if it's a good approach or if there is a better way to get where we want to go.

Any tips?


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Malva* 
the thing we're working on this week is playing the right hand louder than the left one. So far, she's having no luck managing that and I'm wondering if any of you have tips on how to break it down.

My dd (5) has been doing piano for a couple of months. My 14yo has been doing piano for almost 9 years but her beginnings were so long ago that I forget how this was introduced. My 5yo's teacher has had her practice just two notes (say, middle C with 3rd finger LH and treble C one octave up with 3rd finger RH) at the same time. The aim at first was to have one C speak and the other C key move a little but not speak. That took a week of solid work to get it consistent. Once she could do this reliably with all finger combinations and then again with the opposite C speaking, she was to make one C speak and the other C 'whisper'. She's still working on that, although she's keen on this whole skill and is also trying to get the same effect into a basic hands-in-parallel five-finger exercise, with partial success.

Miranda


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## ShanaT

Hi!
I just wanted to drop a note to say that we've finally come out of our rut! All it took was a Thanksgiving concert on the table after dinner and Jingle Bells. We may struggle with Lightly Row forever, but at least he's having fun, and sounding good again. Oh, and we went to see a great bluegrass band with a crazy fiddle player who just happened to teach Suzuki and was able to inspire him during the break. She gave me some great advice and said that we're kidding ourselves if we think the child believes that Lightly Row is great music. We've got to play them great music and explain that they need to get THROUGH LR to get to the good stuff. That approach really resonated with Gus. We've ordered the second CD for expanded listening and I hope to add 3 and 4 as well.
Hope to hear more from others, its inspiring and fun.
Shana







:


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
Hi!
We've got to play them great music and explain that they need to get THROUGH LR to get to the good stuff. That approach really resonated with Gus. We've ordered the second CD for expanded listening and I hope to add 3 and 4 as well.
:

Congratulations on the break through! The more you listen, the better it goes. In his book _Teaching from the Balance Point,_ Ed Kreitman recommends buying the Book 4 CD and listening to it right from the start, especially on those days that you just can't face another Twinkle! Book 4 is the book that introduces pieces written especially for the violin. Books 1 - 3 are transcriptions of pieces written for other instruments and ensembles.

I think you've gotten some great advice. You might want to check out Barbara Barber's series Solos for Young Violinists. She has 8 volumes, and all have CD's. Many Suzuki teachers use these books to supplement the Suzuki volumes. The performances on the CD's are similar to the Suzuki recordings, solid, standard vanilla. (But not terribly exciting.) They are a good starting point with repertoire that the student will learn in the next few years.

Brian Lewis has a great CD out called _The Hot Canary._ You can find it at Young Musicians ( ymonline.com ). My kids like to listen to Sarah Chang, too. They like the encore pieces best, short and flashy!


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## Malva

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
My 5yo's teacher has had her practice just two notes (say, middle C with 3rd finger LH and treble C one octave up with 3rd finger RH) at the same time. The aim at first was to have one C speak and the other C key move a little but not speak.

Miranda

Thanks Miranda,
We're trying that!


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## Kappa

I wanted to buy my baby a Schoenhut toy piano, just so that we can have a "piano" around. We just moved to an apartment and there is no room for our upright. Please tell me, if I give a toy piano to a 10 month old will he learn bad form as his fine motor skills are developing? I had a piano in the house as baby and it didn't result in any difficulty, but reading the posts about box violins, I started thinking about this. Thank you!

Also, in my area they have Kodomo music classes for the small toddlers. The only Mommy and me classes for infants I have found are Music Together and Kindermusik. Which program is better? Does it just depend on who's teaching?


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## ShanaT

We did Music Together for years and just loved it. We still pull out the CDs and play and dance after our violin practice time. If we could afford another activity, I think we'd still be doing Music Together.


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## greencat

Sorry to jump in here. I have a quick question regarding a protocol, or etiquette, if you will.

Do you pay your teacher when your kids have "Graduation" recital? This is not a part of school, but something we did aside as many of Suzuki Families do when they are done with Book I or Twinkle. I paid the piano accompanist, as I made arrangements for the recital but wondering if I am to pay our teacher as well?

I will write about how the recital went later.

Thanks!


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
Do you pay your teacher when your kids have "Graduation" recital?


I wouldn't expect to be paid for a student's Book recital. A teacher appreciation gift would be a thoughtful gesture.

Good luck with the recital! I can't wait to hear how it goes.


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## insahmniak

At DD's latest recital I tried to pay the teacher but she just wouldn't accept. Our teacher has a heart of pure gold and doesn't seem to be very focused on compensation (she charges about half the going rate). We do automatic payments to her through our bank and have







overpayed







her a few times and she cited that as a reason we shouldn't pay. I brought her a very nice arrangement of flowers and was sure to publicly express my appreciation of her at the recital.

Congratulations on the recital!







:


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## greencat

Thanks, Suzuki Moms! I guess I wasn't too far off from the protocol. I think I am going to give her Chartism's present in the equivalent amount to what I paid for the piano accompanist with gift receipt. She is newly wed, so I have good idea to what she may enjoy.

Our Graduation Recital for Book I and Twinkle went fine. To make a long story short, my DD was done with Book I back in May, but we lost our school with the flood. Currently, the school is renting a basement of a church to continue our lessons. So, arranging our teacher's schedule, finding a piano accompanist, and asking the church to let us use their room for recital took a lot of time to coordinate. The church was kind enough to let us use their service room, with beautiful stained glass windows. (I think they call it "Sanctuary.")

Anyway, we were not sure if we were able to have the graduation recital after all because of the flood. Yet, I got the o.k. from the church to use their service room last week, and a spot in our teacher's schedule for Dec. 5th. I had trouble finding a piano accompanist with such a short notice, but another violin teacher had agreed to play the piano for us on Monday. (Actually, he is our teacher for the group lessons. Our school is part of Cedar Rapids Symphony Orchestra and all the teachers play in the orchestra. Each group teacher has students for private/individual lessons, but some of us have different teacher for the group lesson and private lesson.)

I had no time to snail mail invitations as I planned, but get on the phone and E-mail. Fair amount of people attended, despite the weather. The recital lasted about an hour. My DD started with Gavotte and down to Lightly Row: Some with piano accompaniment and some with harmony played on violin by her private lesson teacher. She took a seat after the Lightly Row, and my son played Twinkle variations next. Then, my DD got back on the stage with him to play Twinkle Theme together with my son. After the Theme, he played the theme again, but with my DD playing the harmony with him. They both did very well: )

Of course, I had my husband video taped the whole thing. I took few pictures as they were playing. One of the photos will be this year's holiday card. My friends brought bouquet of flowers for DD and DS. They felt like a star, and felt very proud of their achievement.

Next is preparing for the Holiday Pop. Cedar Rapids Symphony always have Holiday Pop for Christmas. This is one of the biggest events of the year for the symphony. They usually have Suzuki students play, along with their Children's Choir group. They also invite various local high school students/group to play or some one to read story, etc. Well, this year will be played in a much smaller scale, since we lost the Paramount Theater with the flood. It was the home for the Cedar Rapids Symphony Orchestra. We will play at an auditorium of a college. My DD is one of the three to play solo. She is playing Gavotte. She is also having her regular recital on the 15th, and participating on a talent show for her gymnastics' group.

My house is a mess, with a huge pile of laundry... I am planning to make her dress for the Holiday Pop... I'm just glad we are not expecting any guests over holiday this year. I think I will be able to have my decent sleep : )

Thanks for reading.

Greencat


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## ebethmom

I'm so sorry to hear of the flood damage to the school and the Paramount Theater. I know that the Paramount had been recently renovated, too.

I used to play in a quartet with the concertmaster of the CRSO, Taki. Small world! He is a very gifted violinist. When I was a kid, Lisa Ponton was my _idol_! I heard her play at Stevens Point when we went for the summer institutes.

Congratulations on your kids' great recital!


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## greencat

I think the Internet makes the world a lot smaller place, don't you agree? 'Taki' is still here. I think he will always be here. However, I don't think he really enjoys speaking with me, since I speak to him in his native language and he gets caught off guard with that (?) I have only being with CRSS for few years, and the little as I know, the CRSS had a lot of political turbulence as well as financial difficulties. I'm sure it is going to take a long time to rebuild after this flood. The school also was renovated couple of years ago. Now, they are all gone with the sludge. It is a common phrase here at CRSS "Because of the flood..."

Anyway, I'm glad the big recital is over. Thanks for your support : )


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## greencat

by the way, now I feel the world is a lot smaller via Internet; does anyone know Martha Shackford? Please, PM me, if you have her contact info.

thanks!


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## greencat

Thank you with the contact info of Martha.
Wadoyouno? MDM is the place, hun?

Now, I am able to mail a dvd of my kids' graduation recital to her. I'll post her reaction here after I get in touch with her again.

Thanks,
Greencat


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## greencat

by the way, Lisa is our new Suzuki Cordinator. I don't know anything about her. To be honest, I didn't even know that she played violin. Shame, hun?

I don't think Taki will appreciate, if I went up to him and said I know someone from his past. If you are interested to contact him yourself, I can probably give you his Email addy. But, you have to let me know how surprised he was to hear from you later.


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## littletravelers

:hey, i just found these twinkle mats. they seem great!


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## wyovol

Hi.

I was a Suzuki violin student from age 5-12. I don't have a great ear, even with the training, but I love to play. I haven't played my violin in years, but I do play my flute occasionally, mostly at church. I also play the handbells at church.

DS is almost three and wants so much to make music. I'm going to check with some local teachers to see about observing some classes.

Would it be detrimental to future lessons if I got him a box violin to "play"? Would it reinforce bad habits if we decide not to start lessons for a year or two?


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wyovol* 
Would it be detrimental to future lessons if I got him a box violin to "play"? Would it reinforce bad habits if we decide not to start lessons for a year or two?

No, I don't think so at all. I think it's the ongoing allure of "playing" and making a sound on a real instrument that tends to produce bad habits. (I confess my kids all had real instruments quite young, before starting formal lessons, and I was just careful to gently correct improper violin position and remind them that there was a correct way to hold the bow, and did they want me to help them do so ... etc..)

Miranda


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## theretohere

Hi- I have a question. I'd really love to get my 4.5 year old DD into Suzuki, but the nearest teacher I can find is 140 miles away.
Is there a way to do it just parent instructed? I can play piano, but I wasn't Suzuki trained.
TIA!


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## greencat

Boy, I won't drive that far, but I knew a family who did. They did because they loved the teacher, and they were homeschooling which did not have the time strain of 'after school' schedule.

We had several different teachers since we stared. Each and every one had different essence. We love our current teacher, but planning to transfer to a different music school. The drive to each place is about the same, but the other music school have string orchestra besides group and private lesson for students who can read music. My DD is up for a challenge, and she is the type of a child who thrive under competition.

So, I guess you have to choose driving that far is what you won't mind doing, and the main reason to go attend the school is worth the drive.


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## theretohere

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
Boy, I won't drive that far, but I knew a family who did. They did because they loved the teacher, and they were homeschooling which did not have the time strain of 'after school' schedule.

We had several different teachers since we stared. Each and every one had different essence. We love our current teacher, but planning to transfer to a different music school. The drive to each place is about the same, but the other music school have string orchestra besides group and private lesson for students who can read music. My DD is up for a challenge, and she is the type of a child who thrive under competition.

So, I guess you have to choose driving that far is what you won't mind doing, and the main reason to go attend the school is worth the drive.

I was hoping not to drive that far- I was asking if I could do Suzuki at home. I know we'd miss the group thing, other then the 2 kids together, but my options are slim here.


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## megincl

We're in the depths of winter here, but I'll be registering us for an institute (maybe two?) soon.

We'll be going to Ogontz in New Hampshire, which was amazing, terrific, fabulous -- we loved it last year!







: We're going to go one of the weeks in July....any MDC families want to join us?

Also, any other great institutes we should be checking out in the Northeast area?

Thanks!
megin


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theretohere* 
Hi- I have a question. I'd really love to get my 4.5 year old DD into Suzuki, but the nearest teacher I can find is 140 miles away. Is there a way to do it just parent instructed? I can play piano, but I wasn't Suzuki trained.
TIA!

It's certainly possible. I started my eldest alone as a parent, before we had a Suzuki program here. However, I did do two teacher-training courses before starting her off, and I had grown up steeped in the Suzuki philosophy and approach. It was very tough going for the first couple of years until we developed a Suzuki community to support her learning (and my Suzuki parenting).

Unless you're willing to go and get that training I'd say no. The Suzuki approach isn't a "method" as much as it's an approach that's rooted in developmental and educational philosophy and applied flexibly using a pedagogy that's individualized and passed on to new teachers by master teachers. There's no instruction book or manual.

Unless you're going to do the teacher training, I'd look for something more like a traditional primer series where the learning steps are all mapped out for you as a parent.

Miranda


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## theretohere

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
It's certainly possible. I started my eldest alone as a parent, before we had a Suzuki program here. However, I did do two teacher-training courses before starting her off, and I had grown up steeped in the Suzuki philosophy and approach. It was very tough going for the first couple of years until we developed a Suzuki community to support her learning (and my Suzuki parenting).

Unless you're willing to go and get that training I'd say no. The Suzuki approach isn't a "method" as much as it's an approach that's rooted in developmental and educational philosophy and applied flexibly using a pedagogy that's individualized and passed on to new teachers by master teachers. There's no instruction book or manual.

Unless you're going to do the teacher training, I'd look for something more like a traditional primer series where the learning steps are all mapped out for you as a parent.

Miranda

That answered my question completely, although now I'm bummed.







Thanks!


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## hippymomma69

Q for the suzuki teachers on here:

I was a suzuki kid (played for 14 years as a kid - age 4 to 18) then I stopped for 20 years, now I'm picking it up again.

I think I'm interested in doing the steps to becoming a suzuki teacher - but I was wondering if there have been any big differences I need to know about (I'm getting used to the "americanisms" like missisippi hot dog instead of taka!).

How difficult is it to get through the audition? I'm not a professional musician but I did go through all 10 books (and then some) and have been playing Celtic fiddle for the last year and a half. I'm boning up on the classical stuff but do you think it will be hard for me to pass the audition/do the trainings if I was not a music major in college or not a professional performer?

I've also been toying with just going back to get a degree but I'm not really interested in being a professional performer necessarily - just a fiddler and eventually a teacher. I really believe in the method though and think it's the best kind of preparation for whatever kind of playing you want to do later....

so what do you think??? any advice?
tia
peace,
robyn


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## ebethmom

Hi Robyn! I know that SAA has tightened their audition standards. But it sounds like your playing levels would certainly meet those standards. The first movement of either Mozart Concerto from the Books is the comprehensive audition piece. If your comprehensive audition is accepted, then you can take any level training without reauditioning. But you don't have to send in the comprehensive piece for the early book auditions.

In the teacher training courses that I've taken, there has been a broad spectrum of playing and teaching levels.

Have you checked the SAA website? I haven't looked at the early level requirements lately. I've been focusing on the comprehesive levels for viola and violin. The scholarship application deadline is coming up on February 15.

Is there a University in your area that offers long term training? There are a few schools that offer degrees in Suzuki Pedagogy, and quite a few that offer Suzuki coursework.


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## hippymomma69

Thanks for the response so quickly!

Yes I've checked out the website and it seems pretty straightforward. Because I've just started back and have not really been focusing on classical stuff, I'm not ready to do a comprehensive (one of the mozart pieces)...the piece for book 1-8 is the main piece I workshoped back in the day with Bill Starr and Hiroko (ack forgot her last name! my dad used to run a suzuki institute for 10 years - so I was just a kid when I had her) - a bach concerto. But I think I just want to dip my toe in at first and just do the basic 1-4 audition for the moment (which is a seitz and the vivaldi 3rd movement). I'm still trying to get things like my vibrato and bowing technique up to snuff/to my satisfaction - I might need a little more time before the March deadline for auditioning if I did the Bach piece.

We're getting ready to move and I've checked out programs in the two possible areas we are moving to - there is a degree program with suzuki training in eastern north carolina but nothing closeby to Austin. I've been a little frustrated because it seems like most music programs are geared to the new college student (you have to take a bunch of liberal arts courses) and the masters programs mostly (not all) assume you have a music undergrad degree. And of course they are ALL focused on becoming a CLASSICAL player so my fiddling would have to be a side thing









I'm also kind of wondering about how to you "break in" - do you substitute teach at a suzuki school? Do you just jump right in and start signing up students (doesn't it take a while to get all 4 first books done? I think I could do book 1 and 2 this summer but not sure about getting the rest done before the summer is over). Did anyone try the apprentice route to becoming a suzuki teacher (there is one guy in Austin who is registered as a trainer I could apprentice with).

sorry I have so many questions but any help you can point me to is great!
peace,
robyn


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## ebethmom

I live about an 1 1/2 hours from Hiroko Driver. She's teaching Suzuki teacher training courses at U of L again. I wish I could take some, but it's not that season of life for me. It's just impossible to fit in observations, take the course, homeschool my kids, teach 28 other kids how to play the violin, and play in two orchestras. (Sorry for the mini rant! I really would _like_ to take some courses, and I'm feeling a tiny bit deprived.)

I've only done short term training. Wait, I take that back. I took two levels for Master's credit. But I found the content . . . lacking. So I didn't register those with SAA.

If I had it all to do over, I would do my training through a long term degree program. Taking the short term courses in the summer can sometimes be a piecemeal experience. I haven't done any apprenticeship work, mostly because life interferes. Both long term training and apprenticeships have the advantage of real life time. You get to see lessons progress in a more realistic way. Institutes are great, but the condensed, warp-speed lessons are much different than weekly lessons.

I don't know of many situations that would call for substitute teaching. The only time I've had another teacher step in was for my first maternity leave. Once you have your Book 1 training, you can open up shop. I know plenty of teachers that stay one step ahead of their students with training. (And quite a few who wing it without training.) With your background as a Suzuki kid, you'll have plenty of resources.


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## hippymomma69

thanks that is so helpful! lots of good feedback and things to think about!
peace,
robyn


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## Mama Shifra

robyn--

If you want to pursue a degree in music education so that you can teach in a public school, you may find that the audition requirements are not as rigorous as in a conservatory or performance oriented program. While you would probably still need to pursue Suzuki training elsewhere, with a degree in music education, you will probably always be able to get a job


----------



## hippymomma69

thanks - good tip!

are music teachers really in that much demand? what about the suzuki in the schools program? anyone know about that?
peace,
robyn

eta: I've been a bit intimidated by the music education programs because many of them seem to assume that you know piano/and or have voice training...and the stuff about conducting seems kind of foreign to me - but maybe I just need to find the right program?
thx


----------



## Mama Shifra

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
are music teachers really in that much demand? what about the suzuki in the schools program? anyone know about that?
peace,
robyn

eta: I've been a bit intimidated by the music education programs because many of them seem to assume that you know piano/and or have voice training...and the stuff about conducting seems kind of foreign to me - but maybe I just need to find the right program?
thx

Robyn--

Just to let you know, I am *not* a music teacher, nor did I major in music! I only took about 2 years of piano, so I am certainly no expert.

That said, my husband is a principal in an elementary school and did have a hand in hiring a music teacher this year, so I saw from the sidelines some issues that were raised. One book that I read during the process was _Inside the Music Classroom: Teaching the Art with Heart_ by Patricia Bourne; she raised an issue that you brought up--what if your primary instrument is not piano? Most music degrees, whether in music education or not, insist on the graduate having "competency" in piano. Some schools want more that just basic competancy for their music teachers.

Also many schools, in anticipation that you may conduct a choir or band, will insist that you get major competancy in all forms of instruments used in an orchestra as well as voice training. So a music education degree is very credit intense--you will not have many electives because you will use most of your credits trying to fulfill your music degree requirements.

You will probably want to check out www.menc.org (The National Association for Music Education). They have forums discussing music education in all its forms.


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## hippymomma69

thanks helpful tip!
peace,
robyn


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## insahmniak

Anyone have a favorite studio music stand? I've been thinking of passing along our black Manhasset to our wonderful teacher. She now uses a folding stand - takes two hands so not easy to adjust. What I like about Manhasset (orchestra) style stands is that they are typically easy to adjust with one hand. What I don't like is that they feel cold. Wood ones I've found are very spendy, though, and they also seem to be two-handed. (Knob tightener?)

So are the orchestra types still the best out there?


----------



## Whistler

Hi, just found this tribe and am happily throwing in my lot!

My DD, age 4 is a Suzuki beginner, DH and I both have music degrees from a University but were not Suzuki-trained as children, unfortunately. We both wish we'd started younger.

DD loves her violin. We started her young, probably too young, but I had studied so much about brain development and young children that I was excited to get her going. We haven't pushed her though, let her take her own pace. Even now she is slipping into review mode and we're going along with that.

Her teacher is doing something non-Suzuki and that is starting her reading music already. She has her clap rhythms and read pitches and look at the music when she is doing her songs. Part of me is for that and part of me wonders if it is too soon. The thing is, DD LOVES the reading! More than playing her violin, actually. She'll vocalize the most difficult rhythms accurately the first time. It totally blows us away. But now at her practice times she wants to do rhythm reading and NOT play her violin! Any thoughts from other moms and teachers?


----------



## Stacymom

So who all is doing institutes this summer? I just registered for ISSI in SLC Ut for the third year in a row. Its going to be a trick getting ready for it, because her teacher wanted us to push her a little bit and enroll her in a book 4 class, even though she's not yet finished with book 3. I'm ok with it because her teacher is the institute director, but I'm feeling the Seitz concerto pressure! Where's everyone going this year?

Insahmniak, I really like my manhasset stand in my studio. Its easy to use and doesn't take up too much room. I actually really, really dislike my wooden stand. We've had to repair it so many times that I'm afraid to really use it. The metal parts tend to get really stuck realy easily too.

Whistler, have you tried leaving the rhythm games/motereading things until the end to be a "reward?" My dd's favorit thing is the new piece so I often leave that till the end so that she's motivated to finish practicing. You could also write all the little thigns that she needs to do during a practice session on pieces of paper and let her draw them out of a hat as she practices, or you choose what she does, then she chooses. Anything to make her feel like she has some bit of control over what she's doing during practice time. HTH.


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## insahmniak

Stacymom - we just registered for SLC too! Just got it in under the March 1 early deadline. T's in the middle of Gavotte (Mignon) and it's been interesting. The tune seemed familiar to me but when I went to play it none of the bowings felt comfortable. I finally got suspicious and dug through my old Suzuki books and sure enough, I skipped it for some reason. Anyhow T and I are learning it together and she's at the key change.

Super super excited about SLC. We signed up for the chorus enrichment again - but it incorporates movement, too. Last year it was pretty fast-paced and a good workout for the noggin.

I did end up passing along the Manhasset stand to our teacher and she loves it! So glad I didn't bother with a wood stand. Sounds like it wouldn't work well for a busy studio.

Can't wait for the SLC play-in!


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## ShanaT

I'd love to learn more about institute, particularly for young players. DS is 5 and starting Oh Come Little Children. There is an institute in Pittsburgh that is convenient to my in-laws so it would be pretty easy to. I'm just not sure he's ready for 3 hours of classes a day with a strange teacher and kids. He's very motivated by seeing other players, which we don't get enough of, so in that way it could be very good. I guess I just don't know enough about it.


----------



## megincl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
So who all is doing institutes this summer? I just registered for ISSI in SLC Ut for the third year in a row. Its going to be a trick getting ready for it, because her teacher wanted us to push her a little bit and enroll her in a book 4 class, even though she's not yet finished with book 3. I'm ok with it because her teacher is the institute director, but I'm feeling the Seitz concerto pressure! Where's everyone going this year?

Insahmniak, I really like my manhasset stand in my studio. Its easy to use and doesn't take up too much room. I actually really, really dislike my wooden stand. We've had to repair it so many times that I'm afraid to really use it. The metal parts tend to get really stuck realy easily too.

Whistler, have you tried leaving the rhythm games/motereading things until the end to be a "reward?" My dd's favorit thing is the new piece so I often leave that till the end so that she's motivated to finish practicing. You could also write all the little thigns that she needs to do during a practice session on pieces of paper and let her draw them out of a hat as she practices, or you choose what she does, then she chooses. Anything to make her feel like she has some bit of control over what she's doing during practice time. HTH.

We are going to Ogontz Suzuki Institute in NH this summer. First session. We LOVED it last year when DS was just 5. To speak to a 5yo beginner's enjoyment, being immersed in music from many different perspectives was really great for him. It actually pushed him past a rut (he was really struggling with Long Long Ago) and he's been flying since. So I think it can be great for the little ones/beginners.

We'd love to meet some folks at Ogontz this year!


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## Stacymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
I'd love to learn more about institute, particularly for young players. DS is 5 and starting Oh Come Little Children. There is an institute in Pittsburgh that is convenient to my in-laws so it would be pretty easy to. I'm just not sure he's ready for 3 hours of classes a day with a strange teacher and kids. He's very motivated by seeing other players, which we don't get enough of, so in that way it could be very good. I guess I just don't know enough about it.

Go go go! I can't say enough good about it, really. The teachers are excellent, and will work really hard to make the classes fun. It won't be three solid hours of playing- there will be lots of breaks, lots of activities, etc. It will change both of you.


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## MayDayMommy

Hi,

I hope you don't mind me popping in to ask a quick question to you Suzuki pros.

We are considering starting DS when he is three. However, we were planning to do piano, assuming we can find a suzuki teacher. Is there a reason to do violin rather than piano? It seems that that is the more standard/popular instrument, but it is "wrong" to do piano instead?

Thanks!


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## PiePie

I have a related Q: how did you pick the instrument? where we want DD to take Suzuki lessons when she is 4, they offer violin, cello, and flute, but flute only if you have had prior formal training on piano and voice. There is no one in my area (to my knowledge) who offers piano/keyboard lessons to a 3yo, and i don't really see the point of voice lessons, so flute is out. my instinct is to let dd choose btwn violin and cello. my brother finally succeeded (relatively) with his 3rd instrument once he chose it. personally, i lean toward the cello because squeaky beginners violin sounds awful -- believe me, i was the squeaker! dh leans toward the violin for ease of transit. (we could get piano or flute lessons by suzuki method elsewhere but it would be farther away and i am not interested in wasting time on travel.)


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## Stacymom

PiePie, take this for what its worth... I worked in music retail for 10 years, and there is nothing more difficult than finding good, playable tiny cellos. Little violins are much easier to come by. You can find cellos once they get to about an 1/4 size or so fairly easily, but before that, its really touch and go. Not that I don't think cello is cool, but it would be harder to start a really young child on cello. Have you observed any lessons? Do you have a teacher in mind? You might want to talk with a teacher and see what they say as well.

And Mayday, I don't have a lot of experience with Suzuki piano, but I know that its really popular here, and there's tons of little ones playing. Again, just find a good, experienced teacher, and you can be on your way!


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## Whistler

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
So who all is doing institutes this summer? I just registered for ISSI in SLC Ut for the third year in a row. Its going to be a trick getting ready for it, because her teacher wanted us to push her a little bit and enroll her in a book 4 class, even though she's not yet finished with book 3. I'm ok with it because her teacher is the institute director, but I'm feeling the Seitz concerto pressure! Where's everyone going this year?

I wanted to get to either the institute in Tri-Cities or the one in BC last summer but it did not happen. This summer it may not happen either because of the new baby. But who knows??? I love to go to one, it just means traveling 4 to seven hours to get there, depending which we choose.


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## Bird Girl

We decided against the Salt Lake City (Intermountain) institute this year because my DD is the only one ready for it. Next year, my son will be ready to go, too, so we think we'll start next year. (My dd will probably still be in book 4, so plenty of stuff to work on.) We've gone every year to our tiny local institute, at Crowden School in Berkeley, CA, and it's always great and amazing. There's something about working every day for four days that really takes you to the next level, or at least, that's what my DD has found.


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## moominmamma

We are lucky to have our very own institute right in our village (the one in BC that Whistler mentioned). My four kids will be attending; it's the fifth year for the elder ones, and the third year for my 6yo being fully enrolled. They love it, even though (or perhaps partly because) it's small and predictable and they're pretty much the most advanced kids.

We also have a traditional (non-Suzuki) music school here for two weeks afterwards and my eldest two usually do orchestra and chamber music there, everyone does a choir, and my youngest and eldest will also be doing the piano master classes.

Because we are rural and isolated from a significant musical community most of the year, summers are our chance to bring the masses to us and fill up our musical tanks. We pack as much in as we can. Last year my eldest did an additional two Suzuki institutes (Montreal and Edmonton) during July as well.

Miranda


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## greencat

It's hard to leave a teacher who nurtured you, and grew under. Yet, the tough part is meeting a new teacher and finding the harmony. We are transferring this Fall to a new music school. Any advice?


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## Tassy

Yikes. This is so much harder than finding a violin was....I am not having any fun or luck. She has her heart set on cello and I didnt realize that I am going to have to shell out $500 just to get started! She has been going to music classes with the instructor and has used the xylophone and the 1/8 that the teacher has which is too big (she just turned 4)

Does anyone have any suggestions???

TIA!
Tassy

DS 7.5 (3.5 yrs on the violin) DD 4, twin DDs 2


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## megincl

We rent our cello and started with a 1/10 size. We're close to Johnson Strings, who do a huge rental business. I know that they ship rentals, so you might want to check them out.

Good luck!


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
So who all is doing institutes this summer? Where's everyone going this year?


We're going to Stevens Point! I'm doing a unit of teacher training. Just found out today that I got a scholarship!! Yea!!

I think my family will join me for one week. I'm not sure how we'll work that yet. I'd like to stay for the second week and take the Practicum course, but I'm not sure we can swing that and tuition for ds. If I take the Practicum, then dh would have to go to ds's classes with dd in tow.

I added up all of the options tonight. All of them are pretty expensive, even with a scholarship. But I'm so excited about going! I went to Stevens Point four summers when I was a kid. I have great memories! Lots of my teacher friends will be there, too.

I'm also teaching at the Louisville Institute in June. That should be fun. One of my good friends is teaching there, too.

Kind of a strange summer, teaching at one Institute and still doing teacher training at another. I've done that before, and it's just an odd mix. I wish I had been able to complete my training back when I wanted to. I was cooking right along, then life (kids!) got in the way.


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## Stacymom

Elizabeth, that's awesome! What unit are you taking? I feel ya- I did five units in one calendar year, and haven't been able to do any since. I would really like to get book 6 out of the way, and Ed Sprunger (who's one of my favorites) is doing a teacher training course this year at ISSI on group classes, which would be fantastic. The problem is, my 7 year old is doing the book 4 class, my 5 year old will be in the daycare, and my 7 month old will be 6 weeks post-op. Yeah, not the ideal year for me to be taking more teacher training courses...









Yup, institute is expensive! I'm fortunate that I do a little bit of work for ours, so I get a tuition voucher in exchange. But, we still have to pay for daycare, meals, and her extra classes. Plus, since we moved last year, we're going ot have to spend the week of Institute at my parent's house. Its going to be an interesting week!


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## ebethmom

Hi Stacy! I'm taking (mumble, mumble). Ah-hem, Unit 4. I feel so far behind! Especially since I'm teaching kids in Book 6!

Five units in one year! That's intense! I took three units one summer, and that was information overload. When I win the Powerball, I'll probably get a Master's in Suzuki Pedagogy just for fun.

Ed Sprunger is teaching Book 4 at Stevens Point, then he's doing the Practicum during the second week. I would love to do both! But I just don't think we can swing it.

I looked up the tuition/fees/room&board for Ottawa (Sound Encounters) this morning. It is far more reasonable. One of my friends is teaching Book 4 there. I think Ottawa might be a little bit closer, too.

I'm also trying to figure out my summer performance schedule. I'll have to give up a few weddings for Ottawa or Stevens Point. But I'd rather not give up a show!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
Hi Stacy! I'm taking (mumble, mumble). Ah-hem, Unit 4. I feel so far behind! Especially since I'm teaching kids in Book 6!

Well, if it makes you feel any better I've taught kids up through Book 8, and have taught at institutes, and I only have Units 1A/1B.

I've taken 1A three times and 1B twice, plus Ed Sprunger's overview of Books 1-4, plus I've taught alongside and co-taught with my mom, who is an SAA teacher trainer, for the past 10 years. But we've never formalized it as a "practicum" arrangement, so my registered teacher training stops at Gossec Gavotte.

We live many many hours away from institutes that offer teacher training, and when we have managed to go I've been the solo Suzuki parent to at least two enrolled children (dh cannot ever get time off in the summer) so I cannot possibly do teacher training at the same time.

So there you go. You're far ahead of me with your units.

Miranda


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## Mary-Beth

Is this thread still active??

My dd has just polished up Gavotte and has been reviewing all of book 1 (well we always do...but more so now) We are going to have a party to celebrate but I'm not sure how to do this exactly.
I don't have a piano or much space for a recital but she would like to play a few pieces.
Has anyone else had a graduation celebration after book 1?


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## ebethmom

Hi Mary Beth! You might see if your dd's teacher could attend and play duets.

In our program, we have Book Recitals several times a year. We usually have 4 - 8 kids who are finishing up a book. Each performer plays several pieces, then we have a short awards ceremony. Then we have cookies and punch!


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## Mary-Beth

That sounds great. I wish our teacher did that...she just leaves it up to the parents to have a party. The other kids moving onto book 2 from our group class (different teacher) aren't doing anything to celebrate. I wish there would be something for all the kids like you described.
I'm trying to find a date to have a party that our teacher can come to. If we manage that I'll see if she'll play some duets.
Thanks for the ideas!


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## Qbear'smama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tassy* 
the 1/8 that the teacher has which is too big (she just turned 4)

Maybe try looking for a 1/10? DD got her cello last night (luckily the school has loaners) and they had a 1/8 and a 1/10 cello to choose from. The teacher said 1/16s are very hard to come by, but I don't know if a 1/10 would be easier to find and may fit your DD. DD is tall for her age (3 in 11 days) so she could have used either one but the teacher opted for the 1/8. Good luck!


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## Stacymom

Small cellos are such a saga!

Here's something to be aware of- violin sizes are standard. You get a 1/4 size, and they are all going to be the same size across the board. But cellos are all different. German, Korean, European cellos are all larger than their Japanese counterparts. So, if you were to get a Japanese 1/8th and a German 1/8th, they would look like different sized cellos. Depending on how picky your teacher is and how music savvy your music store is, you may change cellos more than once _within the same size._ In other words, you may have a Japanese 1/8th, then need to move to a European 1/8th before moving to the 1/4 size.

You could try looking online, although please don't go the ebay route! You could try Shar or Southwest Strings- both of them are pretty reputable.


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## honeybee

My son is 5 and just started Suzuki violin this past January. He just started playing the bunny song and is pretty excited about it. However, the first recital is in a couple weeks, and he is already telling me he doesn't want to do a performance. We did convince him to play for his aunt and uncle the other night and he did really well, and seemed pleased when they clapped and told him he did a good job. Anyone have thoughts on how to prepare him? I didn't expect him to get cold feet. He has sung with church and with his preschool class for concerts and didn't have a problem at all.


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## Bird Girl

My dd was very anxious before her first couple of recitals and play-ins. We just assured her that she would be standing up with her friends, that even if she made a mistake she should just keep going, and that most likely, no one in the audience would hear or notice it. It helped her to point out mistakes in other kids' performances and notice how no one in the audience seemed to pay any attention to them. She got through the first couple of times, and then the anxiety really seemed to lessen.

Hope that helps.


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## honeybee

Thanks! He played for his group class today and seemed to gain confidence from it. It probably helped that the other kids didn't play perfectly, either. I think he'll gain confidence each time he gets a chance to practice.


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## insahmniak

Pizzicato advice?

DD's just finishing up Gavotte from Mignon and is getting pretty frustrated with the pizzicato at the end. She has done it without the bow and is comfortable with the notes and chords. But when we add the bow all heck breaks loose and we're quickly into tears.

I'm watching her bow hold when she goes to pluck and am trying to figure out how to help her transition the bow. Any suggestions? Her little finger just seems so small and getting a good pluck across all those four strings is a challenge for her. She has a pretty darn good bow hold, but I'm guessing it's still not as strong as it could be. Is there a trick I'm missing or is this just going to take a lot of time and happy thoughts?


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## Stacymom

Does your teacher want her to anchor her bow thumb against the fingerboard or let her hand be free? If she anchors her thumb on the corner of the fingerboard, then it will give her first finger more strength to pluck. I always tell my kids that your making "pincher" fingers when you pluck, and you need to make sure to roll your frog all the way into your hand. You can practice just rolling the bow in and out, in and out until she can do it really quickly.

Another thought: make sure she is plucking over the fingerboard, at a diagonal. As she strums the last two chords, she should start at the corner of the fingerboard when on the G string, and then pluch on a diagonal away from the bridge (towards the scroll) and that will help it be more ringing.

Also, make sure she's using the fat, fleshy part of her first finger instead of the tip. Hope that helps. It's super hard to explain over the internet, so let me know if you have more questions.


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## insahmniak

I'm pretty sure her teacher wants her to just stick her index finger out and pluck, keeping the bow hand fairly unchanged. Seems like a tall order for a not-quite six year old, but I'm a softie like that.


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## moominmamma

It's a tough thing, isn't it? Fiona had to grapple with it at age 4, and she has floppy lax little-kid joints. We practiced a lot of Twinkle Theme and Perpetual Motion pizzicato. These were especially challenging on the lower strings where she really had to hyper-flex the wrist in order to allow her index finger to reach over the strings and grab the D and G.

I remember she had a surprisingly easy time tunnelling her left hand fingers in the B-flat section, leaving the 3&4 down on the A whilst playing the F-natural low-1 on the E-string in the first sixteenth notes in that section. Her big sister was newly 6 when she worked on that and it was months before she could do it properly. I remembered thinking "this is too much more a 6-year-old," but her teacher expected it, and eventually she could do it. And then Fiona did it easily at 4.

So while I think age plays into the amount of challenge these technical passages present, it's not the whole story, and a cheerful persistence and belief that it's possible goes a long way. Good luck, and good cheer!

Miranda


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## ebethmom

Stacy and Miranda - do you teach pizzicato with the frog held in the palm? I've always taught that hold with the thumb anchored on the fingerboard, at least in the beginning. I have my students do back and forth exercises (regular bow hold to 'crab pincher' pizzicato bow hold). For me, pizz is easier with an anchored thumb.


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## Stacymom

I teach that section in Mignon with the frog anchored in the hand. I just figure, if I were playing it, I would roll my bow in. Especially since its at the end of the piece, and they don't have to go back to arco, they may as well anchor their thumb to get a stronger more ringing pizzicato. My daughter's teacher teaches it the opposite, however. I think its just one of those interpretation things. Regardless of which way you play it though, if you use the fat part of the finger, over the fingerboard, and strum diagonally, you'll get a better sound.

And Miranda, I know what you mean- I am astounded at what my little gir can do. I dreaded Mignon, and we conquered it in two weeks with minimal fuss. I've been dreading the Bach Bouree, but we're almost done with that, and she's playing it brilliantly. I love the way the Suzuki method works when all the pieces are in place. I can't believe how easily and smoothly she learns.


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## honeybee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
Thanks! He played for his group class today and seemed to gain confidence from it. It probably helped that the other kids didn't play perfectly, either. I think he'll gain confidence each time he gets a chance to practice.

Just a little update. My son's recital went very well. He is very proud of himself, and now he wants to perform for everyone he can. He has also had another spurt of wanting to practice a lot. Things seem to be coming together more. He was getting really reluctant to practice before his recital, but now he's asking to play again.


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 

So while I think age plays into the amount of challenge these technical passages present, it's not the whole story, and a cheerful persistence and belief that it's possible goes a long way. Good luck, and good cheer!

Miranda

She did it! Well, I mean she's doing it. We backed up and she practiced the pizzicato part without the bow until she had it down absolutely cold. Then she started with the bow hold - index finger extended. Now she's doing it quite well and it's honestly quite an impressive ending.

She's been practicing the accidental and key-change parts very slowly, over and over, for intonation. So now when she plays the whole piece we have some tempo issues. Our next step is to continue the intonation work but work toward an even tempo throughout.

Stacymom-
Two weeks! That does seem astounding! Mignon has been one of the slogging pieces for us with all those fingers moving near and far. I'm looking ahead to the rest of book 2 with trepidation on the inside and a cheerful "I think I can" on the outside.

honeybee-
I'm happy for you that son seems to have turned a corner with his interest in performance and play. I'm a huge fan of regular recitals and performance. I think it worked wonders for me as a young violinist - so I tend to give it lots of credit. We moved to a new home with a fairly undeveloped backyard, and I'm considering building a small stage/amphitheater in one corner, with power and light to it. Wouldn't that be fun?!


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## honeybee

Oooh, outdoor concerts at home sound great!

I've been evesdropping on all your technical conversations, and I admit it's making me feel a little intimidated!







But I figure, we'll just take it one step at a time.


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## Stacymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Stacymom-
Two weeks! That does seem astounding! Mignon has been one of the slogging pieces for us with all those fingers moving near and far. I'm looking ahead to the rest of book 2 with trepidation on the inside and a cheerful "I think I can" on the outside.

You know, Mignon went surprisingly fast, but we spent a long time on the Minuets at the end of Book 2. Then the first couple of book 3's were quick, and we spent f.o.r.e.v.e.r. on Humoresque. Part of the problem was that we trasferred to a new teacher during that time, and after Abby had completely learned and memorized it, we had to re-learn it with all the revised edition shifts. Then I had a baby and fell off the face of the earth for a month, and we had to learn a whole bunch of Christmas songs for her new studio. So we were stuck. For months. I still cringe hearing it. But then I was dreading Becker Gavotte, and it was nothing. I dunno. Sometimes, especially as a teacher, I dread pieces that are upcoming because students have struggled on it, but Abby will blow by it like its nothing.

Are you headed to to ISSI this year? She'll probably hear the Minuets so much at institute that she'll blow past them without any trouble.


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## ebethmom

I just got my first-draft schedule for my week of Institute teaching, and my big groups are Twinklers and PreTwinklers. I had the year off from teaching little bitties (my first in many years!) so now I have to dust off my "bag o'many tricks"! Teaching big groups of wigglers is part music lesson, part magic show.

Here is my list of activities so far :

Gummy lifesavers on the tip (bow control)
The Rocket Song
Tall Violin parade
Bow Hold parade
"What's in the case" game
"What is this" scale singing for parts of violin and bow
Magnetic fishing game (each fish has a variation with illustrations)
Memory Match (with simple activities like "Clap tucka tucka stop stop")
Hide the Turtle (hot and cold game)
Reading Zin, Zin, Zin a Violin (or not, depending on the group!)
Name that Tune

Hopefully the PreTwinklers will all know the Monkey Song and the Flower Song.

And of course playing what they know with activities for ensemble. I don't need any refresher for those! I just need to remember what kind of bunnies I have in my hat.


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
I've been evesdropping on all your technical conversations, and I admit it's making me feel a little intimidated!







But I figure, we'll just take it one step at a time.

Yes, please do hang in there (here!). A lot of the technical issues seem pretty wrapped up in the context of the pieces that are introduced. Conversations about technical aspects about a Seitz concerto, for example, would totally fall off my radar, because quite honestly it's all I can do sometimes just to figure out what's in front of me at any given moment. I'm pretty grateful for active threads like this that I can search when the need arises, or ask the question again if I can't find the answer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
Are you headed to to ISSI this year? She'll probably hear the Minuets so much at institute that she'll blow past them without any trouble.

I'm so so so excited for ISSI this year! The words "Salt Lake" are in our daily conversations as we gear up for it. I learned a few lessons last time around and changed a few things. We signed up for fewer enrichment classes. It's a demanding week and having down time cannot be overrated. We also passed over the Chorus enrichment. The class we had last year demanded so much concentration at the end of the day, and lots of practice in the evenings when we needed to be working on violin for the work she was doing in master class and others. I do wish Chorus was more of a Choir experience, I guess. My dd loves to sing and it would be awesome to have something like that for her to do. I signed her up for an art class instead. It'll be something different, and hopefully free from any "final performance" pressure for the end of the week.

Stacymom - you're going to ISSI, yes? Are you going as teacher, parent, both? I sure wish I could bring our teacher from Boise along with us. She'd just love it.

Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children. One reason I ask is that I've been having issues with DD accepting advice or direction from me. It's generally of a technical nature, like violin or handwriting. So I've been relying on other adults (her violin teacher) to pitch in on these. But I've got to admit the experience has me questioning my overall decision to homeschool. I have a sinking feeling that, well, if she's going to be so automatically resistant to what I have to say, then how can I be of any help to her in the homeschool setting? In case any of you have any thoughts on the "teaching your own" issue, with regard to violin or otherwise, I'm all ears.


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 

Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children. One reason I ask is that I've been having issues with DD accepting advice or direction from me. It's generally of a technical nature, like violin or handwriting. So I've been relying on other adults (her violin teacher) to pitch in on these. But I've got to admit the experience has me questioning my overall decision to homeschool. I have a sinking feeling that, well, if she's going to be so automatically resistant to what I have to say, then how can I be of any help to her in the homeschool setting? In case any of you have any thoughts on the "teaching your own" issue, with regard to violin or otherwise, I'm all ears.

Yes, I teach Suzuki method violin and viola. And I also homeschool and teach my son violin. I'm not sure I would call our violin studies an unqualified success. Our progress has been . . . slow. My ds does like to play. Almost every time he gets his violin out, he says "I'm really good at this!" I love that he enjoys it, and I make sure to affirm that enthusiasm. I _do_ wish that he was more enthusiastic about taking instruction from me! I have to be very careful not to push, or insist on absolute perfection. My kids know that music is what I _do_. I have to be careful to leave plenty of room for them to make their own music.

Y'know, I think that handwriting and violin are both very personal matters. I find that I have to be careful when I'm correcting my ds's handwriting. I'll make a suggestion, then just let it go. Usually my suggestion is met with resistance! But then he'll take more care with it the next time. It is very similar to our violin practice "dance".

If I had to judge our homeschool success on violin and handwriting progress, I would probably just throw in the towel! Those are two touchy subjects. For us, the rest of school is much easier. The Math fits can be treacherous, but we weather them fairly well. Most of Math is easy for ds, so the areas that require step-by-step work just infuriate him.

Honestly, if we didn't have to drive over an hour to get to another Suzuki teacher, I would probably hand the violin teaching hat to someone else. I would rather be my kids' Home Teacher. For right now, home lessons are our best option.

One more thought about resistance . . . I remember being _very_ resistant to help from my Mom when I had trouble with homework. When I had to ask for help, I was already frustrated. Then my Mom had to step in and figure out the assignment and the teacher's POV, then determine where I was having difficulty. She had to wade through a lot of steps just to figure out where to help. My ds has a stubborn streak that is a lot like mine. Since I already know the lesson plan and where we're headed, it's easier for me to help crack through his resistance.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children.

Yes, I teach Suzuki violin and viola. I live in a very small town a long way from bigger centres. When we moved here I realized that if my kids were going to have a Suzuki childhood, I was going to have to create a program for them. So I started when my eldest was 18 months. Eventually I had about 18 students. I started teaching my first-born. It was, er, not easy. We had a sputtering start. She was musically and intellectually more than ready but very oppositional, not at all receptive to direction.

Then, thankfully, around the time I was expecting my 3rd child and wondering what the heck I'd gotten myself into with all these students, all my own kids, my part-time job and homeschooling, my mom moved to town. She's an SAA-sanctioned violin teacher trainer with decades of full-time teaching experience and was taking partial retirement by moving here. She gradually took over most of my students, and she and I have sort of team-taught my kids. In other words they'd have weekly lessons with their grandma which would serve as a sort of weekly goal and chance to show off and get reinforcement, and I'd work with them when they practiced at home, introducing new skills and consolidating. Together we identified priorities and reinforced them.

With all my children except my youngest, though, there has been a lot of resistance to my involvement in their home practicing. I'm not a demanding, hyper-critical, hard-nosed Suzuki parent, really I'm not. I think I'm actually very gentle, creative and positive. Though at times I wondered what I was doing wrong. Nothing that worked with my students worked with my own kids. My eldest two are incredibly autonomy-driven, introverted and perfectionistic. (My middle dd is like this too, though to a lesser extent.) They would sometimes start crying if they discovered I'd been within listening distance while they were doing some particularly difficult work on their instruments.

My kids became independent practicers very young. Somewhere between age 8 and 9. It hasn't been the best thing for their achievement. For at least a couple of years their learning slowed down, their posture and/or tone deteriorated, things got sloppy. Gradually they grew into the maturity they needed to practice effectively. Or are growing, in the case of my 10- and 12-year-olds. Still struggling there a bit, especially with my most perfectionistic of kids, the 12yo. But the positive flip side is that they really "own" their music studies. They work for their own reasons, on their own terms.

My 6yo is the one child who reassures me that I'm not a toxic Suzuki parent by nature. She's cheerful, resilient, responsive, and is happy working with me. I could teach her on my own without outside weekly lessons.

Miranda


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## Mary-Beth

An update and a quick question...

I posted recently about planning a book 1 graduation recital for dd1. Well, we had it last Sunday. Her sister opened for her with Allegro, Song of the Wind, and Go Tell Aunt Rhody. She also played Long, LongAgo, Minuet 1, Happy Farmer and Gavotte. The last two she played as a duet with her violin teacher. She played the twinkle duet with her younger sister. We held it at a nursing home and a few of the residents sang along for the Twinkle.
It was short and sweet...then we had a cookout back at our house.







:

So thanks for the advice I got here when planning it!

My quick question, is when do you you teach your kids to use independent fingers? Is there some general guideline teachers follow with that?
My dd2 is about to start E-tude and our teacher hasn't mentioned anything about independent fingers yet. With dd1, she started with independent fingers at perpetual motion.


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## Bekka

I've been on MDC for a long time (since 1999), and never (somehow) heard of this tribe!!!

I'm quoting Miranda:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
My eldest two are incredibly autonomy-driven, introverted and perfectionistic. (My middle dd is like this too, though to a lesser extent.) They would sometimes start crying if they discovered I'd been within listening distance while they were doing some particularly difficult work on their instruments.

My kids became independent practicers very young. Somewhere between age 8 and 9. It hasn't been the best thing for their achievement. For at least a couple of years their learning slowed down, their posture and/or tone deteriorated, things got sloppy. Gradually they grew into the maturity they needed to practice effectively. Or are growing, in the case of my 10- and 12-year-olds. Still struggling there a bit, especially with my most perfectionistic of kids, the 12yo. But the positive flip side is that they really "own" their music studies. They work for their own reasons, on their own terms.

I *believe* that my Suzuki student is like this. I think that she has taken more autonomy for her practice than her teacher(s) would have preferred, BUT she is really starting to "own" her practice and finding her motivation internally. If I insisted on being present/making comments as often as I used to, she and I may still be at odds like when she was 8. I have really backed off and she has autonomy for almost her whole practice, and even disappears into the basement for most of it. I think she relishes practicing alone (and as she's the oldest, there's less distraction).


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## Bekka

So I have no idea how I missed the creation of this thread last year.

I'm a Suzuki parent with a 10 yo dd. She is right in the middle of book 4. She started at age 3 (barely) after insisting for a year (yes, a year) that she wanted to play violin. We had a great program we started with, from age 3 through age 6. We thought we'd only be there one year, but I'm glad we started b/c we ended up being there so much longer than we thought. WE moved to another state (VA) and found a program that was much younger but still had the "expectation" we'd come to expect.

DH and I both have music backgrounds, but not professionally. We have now 4 younger children. DD2 is advancing very rapidly on non-Suzuki piano (the Suzuki piano teacher in our area was not a great match) and we tried starting violin with ds last year when he was 4. The practices were great, the connection with teacher did not happen, so we suspended lessons for a while. Then I got pregnant. At this point he's discussing guitar (esp. electric) and trumpet, and I can't think about any kind of lessons for him until at least January (the baby will be older, etc.). He'll be in kindergarten. DD3 is almost 3; I think after dd1 I will choose to start anyone else more like 4 plus, just b/c of the effort at "motivation." And 3's have just been hard with my kids, 4 has been much better (mostly).

DD1 is very excited (and stressed) to be preparing for a major audition for the regional youth orchestra (final round), and our Washington Suzuki Institute is awesome. We're going again this year (4th year or so), although skipping the fiddling class (very sad, but I have a baby).

Sorry that's long, but I'm very excited to commiserate. Well, I already know Stacy and Miranda...


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## Stacymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Stacymom - you're going to ISSI, yes? Are you going as teacher, parent, both? I sure wish I could bring our teacher from Boise along with us. She'd just love it.

Yup, we're headed to ISSI. We're fortunate because even though we moved last year, we're still only an hour away. My parents live less than 15 minutes from the institute, so we're going to move the whole familiy minus my dh, to my mom's house for the week.

I'm going mostly as a mom this year. I haven't been able to do my teacher training for a while now, ever since my dd started playing. Its virtually impossible to be a mom at institute and do the teacher training simultaneously, and right now its much more important that she has the institute experience. Originally, the plan was for her to do institute here and for me to fly somewhere else to do more training, but its really expensive, I have a six month old baby (who is only six weeks post a major operation!) and I just don't feel the need to be doing more training right now.

What is fun though is that when Abby is in classes where she doesn't need me, like enrichment type classes, I usually drop her off then head somewhere else to observe. I get a lot of fresh ideas that way. I'm hoping that my baby cooperates enough for me to do some of that this year.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Stacymom, ebethmom and Miranda - you're Suzuki teachers, yes? (Should we have a teacher roll-call here?) I wonder if any violin teachers here have had any success teaching their own children. In case any of you have any thoughts on the "teaching your own" issue, with regard to violin or otherwise, I'm all ears.

When Abby started, I felt strongly that she needed and deserved to have her own experience playing the violin. I wanted to be the mom and not the teacher too, and my instinct there has turned out to be absolutely correct. I taught her for a couple of transition months this year- we moved, had a baby, and were waiting for the teacher we were transferring to to have an opening for us- and it just wasn't as sucessful as I wanted it to be. I find it much easier to rely on the teacher to give assignments. That way, when she's crying and stomping her feet about her fourth finger shifting excercise, I can smile and tell her its her teacher's fault!







No really, its worked so much better for us. The practicing relationship is so intimate and so volatile. I think as kids get older and more vested in their playing, they see "help" from mom as criticism, no matter how carefully we try to phrase it. Ed Sprunger says in his book that criticism (even if its done in a positive way!) makes a child question if mom still loves them. Sometimes that seems like a rather big cognitive leap for me, but I do know that my daughter really does want to look good in my eyes, and me trying to correct her makes her sad sometimes. One of the downsides of being a violin teaching suzuki parent though is that my dd feels very ganged up on sometimes.

But I'm not sure that your practicing relationship will be a predictor of your homeschooling success. I homeschooled for a time, and it was much different because math facts and reading etc, all are much less personal somehow than playing the violin.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mary-Beth* 
An update and a quick question...

My quick question, is when do you you teach your kids to use independent fingers? Is there some general guideline teachers follow with that?
My dd2 is about to start E-tude and our teacher hasn't mentioned anything about independent fingers yet. With dd1, she started with independent fingers at perpetual motion.

If you're talking about placing fingers one by one instead of blocking them all together, I think its more personal preference than anything. I start way early- like in Twinkles, when they cross to the A string, they put down 3 by itself, then 2, then 1. And in Lightly Row, they start with 2 all by itself. I think that not using independent fingerings can hinder them at some point. Ask your teacher though- it may just be that he or she hasn't covered it with you for some reason.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
So I have no idea how I missed the creation of this thread last year.

Sorry I didn't point you in this direction sooner!







Glad you're here!

And now for my exciting, kind of bragging moment. We officially got to start Book 4 in Abby's lesson today. There is something very "grown up" about working on an official concerto with her. She's so excited!


----------



## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
And now for my exciting, kind of bragging moment. We officially got to start Book 4 in Abby's lesson today. There is something very "grown up" about working on an official concerto with her. She's so excited!

There sure is, and what a wonderful milestone!

Have you got one of those cool brand-spanking-new revised editions of Book 4? There's little that's different in the Seitzes, but the layout and typesetting and inclusion of exercises is really nice. Fiona's prepping for the Bach Double right now, hoping to have it well learned in time for her to play it in a large group at the institute in August. That's a once-a-year opportunity that seems worth trying to capitalize on. We've skipped the Perpetuo Mobile for now because it seems unlikely it'll be a group piece at the institute since so few kids will have ever learned it.

Miranda


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## greencat

Does anyone use this with your student at home? If you do, please write about how you like it. Thanks!

http://www.amazon.com/Practiceopedia...ref=pd_sim_b_3


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## Mama Shifra

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
DH and I both have music backgrounds, but not professionally. We have now 4 younger children. DD2 is advancing very rapidly on non-Suzuki piano (the Suzuki piano teacher in our area was not a great match) and we tried starting violin with ds last year when he was 4. The practices were great, the connection with teacher did not happen, so we suspended lessons for a while. Then I got pregnant. At this point he's discussing guitar (esp. electric) and trumpet, and I can't think about any kind of lessons for him until at least January (the baby will be older, etc.). He'll be in kindergarten. DD3 is almost 3; I think after dd1 I will choose to start anyone else more like 4 plus, just b/c of the effort at "motivation." And 3's have just been hard with my kids, 4 has been much better (mostly).

Bekka--

I don't know where you are in Virginia, but if your son is still interested in guitar and you cannot find a Suzuki guitar teacher, you may want to try Childbloom Guitar. They also stress learning by rote initially (as opposed to reading music when beginning guitar) and start lessons from age 5 and up. My 8 year old daughter has been in the Childbloom program for over a year, and its great. There is a teacher in the Roanoke area who teaches Childbloom Guitar. You can check it out on this website: www.childbloom.com


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## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Shifra;13886623} Childbloom Guitar. They also stress learning by rote initially (as opposed to reading music when beginning guitar) and start lessons from age 5 and up. My 8 year old daughter has been in the Childbloom program for over a year, and its great. There is a teacher in the Roanoke area who teaches Childbloom Guitar. You can check it out on this website: [url*
www.childbloom.com[/url]


Thanks, we're in NoVA. There's a Suzuki guitar teacher an hour away; too far for us ... We need a 30 min or less drive. I will keep looking.


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## Stacymom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
There sure is, and what a wonderful milestone!

Have you got one of those cool brand-spanking-new revised editions of Book 4? There's little that's different in the Seitzes, but the layout and typesetting and inclusion of exercises is really nice. Fiona's prepping for the Bach Double right now, hoping to have it well learned in time for her to play it in a large group at the institute in August. That's a once-a-year opportunity that seems worth trying to capitalize on. We've skipped the Perpetuo Mobile for now because it seems unlikely it'll be a group piece at the institute since so few kids will have ever learned it.

Miranda

We are using the new books. Abby's teacher is really on top of things, and made us go back and re-learn the new things in book 3 when it came out as well. I'm still learning all the new things- can I just tell you how much of a loop the Bach Bourree has thrown me? I am constantly screwing up the bowings when I'm playing it with her, and she just laughs.

There's some new stuff in book 4 I really like- I like that they're using more shifting, have changed the horrible page turns, and using some more intuitive fingerings that I've been using already. Although I did come across one spot in the Vivaldi a minor 3rd movement today that made me scratch my head.

We love the Perpetual Mobile! I think Abby is more excited about that than any of them in Book 4. And I can't believe how fast Fiona is zooming! I check in on your blog every so often, and love to read about your and your kids' adventures with music. I hope she's able to do the Bach double- that would be amazing. (I can't wait to play that with my daughter- I think I'll cry all the way through the first time!







)


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## insahmniak

General question - How much is enough?

We've been putting the finishing touches on the Gavotte Mignon. I think I indicated earlier that this has been one of our "headbanger" pieces. DD has been working hard on it, with challenges in terms of intonation, steady rhythm (don't rush the easy parts and slow up the harder ones), and getting the right number of strawberries or blueberries (repeated sixteenth parts). You can see her work hard, make some progress on one part, feel better, slip up on another part and then feel frustrated with the process.

When I think about how she will work on this piece for yet another week, and rather intensively with her master teacher, I can't help but feel badly for her. I'm pretty sure there is quite a bit of merit in pushing through with this and try to get it buttoned up with the master teacher. But her experience with this piece has me wondering how others deal with the challenging pieces that seem to drag on. Do you ever just move on? Do you stick with it and do your utter best to stay positive and not worry about The Finish? Is it possible to heal or overcome a frustrating piece such that it becomes "new" or, dare I say it, cherished rather than dreaded?

I'd love to hear your ideas and approaches.


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## Juuulie

Hi Suzuki mamas,

I'm new to these forums, been lurking awhile, VERY happy to have found this tribe, could discuss Suzuki stuff all day long and never get tired of it...

My daughter's headbanger piece was the Bach Gavotte in g minor from Book 3. That piece went into her review pile last November but she still loathes it. In fact, the best way to kill her interest in a new piece is to point out similar phrases ("do this bowing just like Gavotte"). I hope that one day she will cherish rather than dread it, but it hasn't happened yet. OTOH she used to despise Beethoven Minuet in G and now it's one of her favorites.

However, we do sometimes just "move on" -- our wonderful teacher would rather have a piece not quite polished than have a child give up in frustration -- and there have been times when we've put something in the review pile with the comment that "we'll come back to it later." The Gavotte was an exception, and with hindsight I can see that there were a lot of good reasons why we spent so much time on it.

Right now, at the end of the school year, dd is feeling kind of tired and burned out on the violin (she just finished Seitz 2/3). Teacher and I decided that we'd take a break from the Suzuki repertoire and let her make a "lateral move" while he is away teaching at institutes. So she got to choose whichever piece she wanted out of Barbara Barber (vol. 1) for her next piece. She picked Elves' Dance and we started it last night -- with much enthusiasm!


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## MeloMama08

Hey mamas!
Well isn't this a fun thread!?
Are there any suzuki piano TEACHERS in our midst? I played suzuki piano all the way from age four to high school and then went to conservatory and now I'm a music teacher... I just started teaching private Suzuki piano and I'd love to talk to any other people who are teaching! If you are, can you please PM me?
Thanks, yay suzuki.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
General question - How much is enough?

I took a great course with Ed Sprunger a few years ago and he talked a lot about this issue. Basically he suggested taking into account the teaching points for each piece, the technical and musical learning tasks that piece presents. We should keep in mind why these points are in this piece and what their importance is. Some of these things are crucial to ongoing development violinistic and should not be left to "linger" but said that often he'd be willing to allow other things to linger. They'd be kept in a mental teacher's file called "Lingering Issues" and revisited in subsequent months to hone them.

So, for instance, to raise the topical Gavotte from Mignon. If the student is having difficulty with the pizzicato at the end, that's not a skill that's built on in the next book or so, though the chord fingering is further built on at the end of Book 3 and in early Book 4. So one might allow that to linger for a few months. On the other hand the left-hand challenges in the B-flat major section is built on in the remaining pieces in Book 2 (in terms of dexterity) and in early Book 3 (in terms of intonation), so that isn't something that one should let linger. Counting the repeated sixteenths? Not crucial to ongoing development (and much easier with the piano accompaniment!). Placing the G# in the first section? That one gets built on in Minuet in G so should probably be solved now.

Hope that helps!

Miranda


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## honeybee

: I'm thinking this technical jargon will start to make sense at some point... Wow we have a lot to learn! But ds's teacher said we should start and finish up Twinkle by the end of the summer.







:


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
Although I did come across one spot in the Vivaldi a minor 3rd movement today that made me scratch my head.

I hope she's able to do the Bach double- that would be amazing. (I can't wait to play that with my daughter- I think I'll cry all the way through the first time!







)

In the Vivaldi, is it the Open E to third position barriolage section? I had wondered about that spot! I learned it with the string crossing for the entire passage, but the fingerings in the new edition only show the string crossings for that one beat. I still teach the way I learned it.

I've been practicing the Bach Double with the new bowings. I like them! When we played it at the Play-In and the Final Concert last week, the leaders did the old bowings. Hard to break those habits!

My dd is a PreTwinkler now, but I was just thinking about her Bach Double potential. I'm just hoping that my ds can make it to Book 4!

I decided to bite the bullet and take my kids to Stevens Point in August. So it's a triple institute summer for me. I taught last week, I'm taking a training course this week, then I'll get to sit in the parent chair in August. My dh is taking some vacation time to go to Stevens Point. I'm looking forward to observing some lessons there! I haven't been back to Stevens Point since I was a kid.


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## Stacymom

We made it! Institute this year was tough, tough with my 7 month old in tow. Usually, I use institute as a way to recharge my teaching batteries as well, and gain new ideas, but this year it was all I could do to keep the baby happy. Poor little boy is very routine driven, and not being able to sleep in his bed when he was tired really threw him off! He was pretty cranky and really tired through most of it, and that made it tough.

But, Abby very much enojyed herself. We didn't come away with any big playing revelations or anything like that because her new teacher is so picky and doesn't let anything slide (in fact, it seemed like her master class teacher didn't have much of anything to suggest to her, which was a little frustrating) but she came away inspired, so I think that's the biggest success.

I did see some new teachers that I really liked- Koen Rens from Belgium and Fernando Pinero from Argentina. Anybody else have favorite teachers they like at Institutes? I'm always trying to find new teachers to watch.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
In the Vivaldi, is it the Open E to third position barriolage section? I had wondered about that spot! .

Oh wow! I didn't even notice that until just now! Hmmm, I don't know what I think about that. The one I was talking about is where it shifts to fourth position instead of using the harmonic on the high E. I've always taught a shift to fifth position there so the E can be strong, and I think I'll probably keep doing it that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
I've been practicing the Bach Double with the new bowings. I like them! .

Crap! There are new Bach Double bowngs? Argh! The Bach Bouree bowings have been killing me! My dd's teacher said she's going to re-learn book 4 as she teaches my dd, and I'm sure that will be my case as well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
I decided to bite the bullet and take my kids to Stevens Point in August. So it's a triple institute summer for me. I taught last week, I'm taking a training course this week, then I'll get to sit in the parent chair in August. My dh is taking some vacation time to go to Stevens Point. I'm looking forward to observing some lessons there! I haven't been back to Stevens Point since I was a kid.

Three Institutes? You are a brave, brave woman. I am so exhausted physically and emotionally after this week that I'm not sure I could do another insitute if I had to! Someday I would love to do Steven's Point. Pretty ridiculous since ISSI is in my backyard, but it would be fun to experience something different.

Insahmniak, how was institute for you? I kept meaning to pm you so that we could actually meet irl, but never got to it. Who did you get to work with? Was is fun for your dd? How did "Mignon" turn out?


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
Insahmniak, how was institute for you? I kept meaning to pm you so that we could actually meet irl, but never got to it. Who did you get to work with? Was is fun for your dd? How did "Mignon" turn out?

Thanks for asking, Stacymom. I'm super happy to give a review. I should start with







: That's it, in a nutshell. I'm very happy with our experience this year. I was particularly surprised at how gratifying it was to see familiar faces. That made this large-scale institute feel rather homey, really. We got to catch up with folks we remembered from last year as well as meet new friends. I did miss having Sven Sjorgen, I must admit. We had him last year for technique and it was awesome.

Teachers we worked with this year were Terry Durbin (again), Pat D'Ercole and Helen Higa. Durbin was amazing as expected. D'Ercole also had a great way with the kids. Higa had a lot to impart, but for a child who just turned six I'm guessing it was a bit esoteric. "Practice doing nothing" turned out to be a theme in the class, for example. For the slightly older student I can see how a class with Higa could be transformative.

This time around my partner came along nearly every day, so I was able to attend some of the parent-centered classes, and observe a few others. This was tremendously helpful.

Best part for me - hands down - attending the parent chats with Ed Sprunger. I gained so much. I was also able to observe a couple of his classes.

This year one of the things that stood out was the emphasis on freedom of movement and relaxation while playing, at least in the classes I observed. As a mom concerned about establishing healthy playing habits I appreciated this.

Loved the Aaron Ashton concert - so much fun! He plays with such joy that it feels a privilege to watch. And the violinist who opened with Kreisler's Preludium - he was also amazing. I wish I could remember his name....

Mignon went well enough and I'm glad we'll be moving on. Taking it to institute certainly emphasized some of her left-hand issues like being tight with her thumb, which I found out is double-jointed. We now have lots of exercise ideas to try. One of DD's classmates had a beautiful vibrato, and I saw the awe in my daughter's eyes and watched her try to do it herself. I think she'd really like to have a nice vibrato. Terry Durbin was going through some bow distribution exercises and asked things like, "How do you play mad?" "How do you play sad?" When he asked the class "How do you play beautiful?" DD shouted out "With vibrato!" I was happy to hear her enthusiasm. She also can't wait to play Minuet in G. When she couldn't join in with the others in her class on this piece she got pretty teary. She knows how it sounds and plays it by ear at home, but I guess she felt shy about joining in because she hasn't formally learned it. So like you - we're coming home with a great deal of motivation.

Overall it was really rewarding to note the growth in my daughter. A year ago she had just turned five and was more easily overwhelmed. This year she was able to be quite a bit more engaged. She's grown up a lot in the last year. Sniff Sniff.

I kept thinking maybe I'd run into you at some point, Stacymom. It's such a busy week and with our kids at different levels it's easy to see how we'd miss each other. Maybe next year we'll figure out a way to connect.

Ack - long post. So much to process after institute! In a nutshell ...







:


----------



## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I took a great course with Ed Sprunger a few years ago and he talked a lot about this issue. Basically he suggested taking into account the teaching points for each piece, the technical and musical learning tasks that piece presents. We should keep in mind why these points are in this piece and what their importance is. Some of these things are crucial to ongoing development violinistic and should not be left to "linger" but said that often he'd be willing to allow other things to linger. They'd be kept in a mental teacher's file called "Lingering Issues" and revisited in subsequent months to hone them.

So, for instance, to raise the topical Gavotte from Mignon. If the student is having difficulty with the pizzicato at the end, that's not a skill that's built on in the next book or so, though the chord fingering is further built on at the end of Book 3 and in early Book 4. So one might allow that to linger for a few months. On the other hand the left-hand challenges in the B-flat major section is built on in the remaining pieces in Book 2 (in terms of dexterity) and in early Book 3 (in terms of intonation), so that isn't something that one should let linger. Counting the repeated sixteenths? Not crucial to ongoing development (and much easier with the piano accompaniment!). Placing the G# in the first section? That one gets built on in Minuet in G so should probably be solved now.

Hope that helps!

Miranda

That helps a lot, Miranda. Thank you. I now have something to work from. Hopefully I can tease apart what is built upon and what is not, and get on the same page with the teacher on that.

Ed Sprunger - I can't say enough about how much I gained from attending the parent chats with him. He helped me become aware of the differences between the role of the teacher and that of the parent from my daughter's perspective. He has amazing insight and I really appreciate his emphasis on the health of the relationship between a parent and child. Hearing that was so liberating.

I'm both glad and disappointed to find out that the Valhalla Institute is at capacity. (I just inquired -







) One of these years we're going to make it up there for it. What an inspiring setting to make music in! I'd love to hear how it goes this year.


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## elisheva

Hi - I'm new here (to this forum, anyway). I have 2 kids - ds1 is 2.5, ds2 is 9.5 months, and we have one on the way, Gd willing, in November.

We are thinking of starting ds1 in Suzuki violin sometime after his third birthday. I'd welcome any opinions on when to start. I know very little about the method right now but I want my kids to have an instrument to play and to receive some instruction/practice on how to be dedicated to that instrument. I was in the band throughout school and loved playing in an ensemble, but never practiced or went any farther... I'd like to push my kids further than that.

Also, how best to find a teacher? We're in Victoria, BC. I'm looking forward to reading this thread.


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## Bekka

We're working our way through the Greater WAshington (DC) Suzuki Institute. DD1 got really sick overnight, so we're missing her lesson, orchestra, and everything today with Mr. Durbin--she can't keep anything down. Hopefully we can finish the week.

I have a 2 month old. I'm having to accept that this year Institute is ALL about dd--I'm never going to try to go the the parent lectures with a baby again. I had a terrible experience at Ed Sprunger's lecture a couple of years ago, and was so embarrassed. I LOVE Ed Sprunger, his book, I'm a total disciple. However, it's not fun to feel bad about your baby. So I just stay away with a baby in arms.

I enjoyed all the parent lectures last year; I'd love them this year, but I'll take what I can get at the level I can.

Our faculty are often regional--we get Ed Sprunger and Terry Durbin every year, and lots of local teachers (Ronda Cole runs our Institute and she is a Master Teacher). There are several other great teachers--I like Dana Myers (Meyers? sp) from Tennessee very much, and a few others. We haven't even seen them all!!

I'm not posting often b/c of said baby. Hope everyone has good Institute and summer experiences. And we're hoping to finish book 4 this summer, so we'll be on the Vivaldi soon (NEXT!!!) but not yet.


----------



## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisheva* 
Also, how best to find a teacher? We're in Victoria, BC. I'm looking forward to reading this thread.

Well, I can tell you from experience how NOT to find a teacher. Don't use a directory that teachers have to pay to be listed on, that you got from the music store. Don't look at that list and recognize the name of someone you went to high school with and sign up your child for lessons because she was first chair in orchestra back then and therefore she must be a good teacher.









In other words, ask around! Get several names from people you trust, talk to those teachers, observe a lesson. One of the best questions to ask a potential teacher, IMO, is "how do you decide when it's time to advance to the next piece."

You might also want to read up on the Suzuki philosophy or take an Every Child Can class before you start talking to teachers. They will want to know that you've done your homework too.

Hope this helps. Suzuki is amazing. It's the best thing I've ever done as a parent.


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisheva* 
Also, how best to find a teacher? We're in Victoria, BC. I'm looking forward to reading this thread.

You can look for a teacher on the SAA website, www.suzukiassociation.org . Not every teacher is listed, just those who have openings in the studios and choose to post their information.

I always recommend lots of observation. You want to know that particular teacher's style to make sure that it will be a good fit with your family.


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 

I always recommend lots of observation. You want to know that particular teacher's style to make sure that it will be a good fit with your family.

Just want to underscore the "lots of observation" tip. Don't be shy to ask for a few sessions, perhaps with different level students so you can see a range. It's not super important, but how nice it would be to find a teacher who could work well with your child throughout a good long chunk of their musical path.

Music communities can be tight in some areas and switching teachers is typically not without some pain. Better to do a thorough job ahead of time. Saves some potential hurt feelings in the long run.


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## Bekka

DD ended up being so sick that we took her to the dr. and she ended up going to emergency with appendicitis. So no more Institute, no more Mr. Durbin, but she's recovering slowly but OK. I hope there's no backlash/real sadness--she was so sick she couldn't be disappointed about missing the rest of Institute. She is still in the hospital for a couple more days.

So just so I can think about something else, ds tried violin last year, and it ended up being not so great. He was 4 1/2. He's talking a lot about guitar. I think I said upthread that the only Suzuki guitar teacher is an hour away. I just found out a friend of ours (who ds knows and likes very much) plays acoustic and electric guitar. I was wondering what your thoughts are about seeing if this friend would do lessons with ds. (Completely casual, completely non-Suzuki). FWIW, dd2 does not have a Suzuki teacher; she has a great match with a traditional piano teacher who has a very good curriculum. So we're flexible.


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## DocsNemesis

Aww...I came on here expecting bikes


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## ebethmom

We just got back from Stevens Point, and I'm trying to hold onto that high! We had a great week! Both of my kids had a great match with their A class teachers. My son had Rob Richardson from Manitoba, and my daughter was in Carol Waldvogel's pre-twinkle class. Both were fantastic.

Scott Conklin played a solo violin recital early in the week. I had a chance to watch Scott teach in Ottawa, too. He has a great way with the kids. We all laughed about the preteen and teenaged girls who swoon in Scott's wake. Well, now my five year old daughter is right there with them! In the middle of the recital she asked me "Could he be MY teacher?" Then when we saw Scott in the hall the next day, she jumped up and down and yelled "There he is! Can I meet him?" Too funny.

My son made lots of friends who happen to play cello. So now he wants to switch! I told him that if we ever move to an area that has a good cello teacher, that would be just fine. Right now, we would have to drive 1 - 1 1/2 hours one way to get to a Suzuki cello teacher.

At Stevens Point, they have the advanced violin groups play first on stage, then the PreTwinkle group does their thing. All of the other violinists are sitting on the gym floor, and play from their spot on the floor. I love the symbolic placement. Everyone from the floor can watch the stage and see where they have been and look forward to getting back on stage with the advanced group.


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## insahmniak

Quick question re:strings.

My D just broke and I didn't have any spares so I picked up a Dominant, which set me back about $30. I've always used them - ever since I can remember. But this new one I can't seem to get seated. The winding around the base is too thick and seems really bumpy compared to the old broken one, so it's not fitting in the slot, even with some force.

My daughter's teacher suggested Corelli crystals. Anyone else use those? What should I be using on my violin? I have a very nice Guarneri-styled violin which I adore. Should I just exchange the Dominant for one with a better wrap? Has the quality of Dominants dropped off or was this a fluke?


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## Stacymom

I learned this quick fix from working at a music store for years. If you take the wrapped end of the string close to the ball end, and get a set of pliers and pinch it so its flat, that will compress the winding enough so that you can get it in the slot. Good luck!


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## insahmniak

Thanks, Stacymom. You likely saved me a trip back to the store.


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## Mary-Beth

When do you teach (or when did your child's violin teacher) introduce independent fingering instead of block? How about the advanced bow hold? And, playing with Vibrato?

I know it is going to vary by teacher and by student. What are the general markers of readiness? Or, when do you like to introduce these skills?


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## Stacymom

I teach independent fingering right from the beginning. Even starting from "Twinkle"- when you cross to the A string and play 3-2-1, I emphasize that 3 goes down by itself, then 2 and 1, so that 3 can be quicker.

If by advanced bow hold you mean thumb on the inside of the frog, it depends on hte age and the readiness of the student. I look for a soft hand, fingers in the right place, and being able to maintain a correct bow grip through an entire piece. I don't rush it, but usually, students have thumb on the inside somewhere around Go Tell Aunt Rhody or Song of the Wind. When I start older students (6 and above) I usually start right off with thumb inside.

Vibrato is a big one. There are a lof of things that need to be in place before a student can have a good vibrato. They need to have excellent position, because the violin needs to be supported 100% by the body in order for the left hand to have freedom of movement. The left hand needs to be relaxed, and held in the correct position. If everything is in place, I'll start preliminary vibrato excercises in the middle of Book 2, but I've waited before. My goal is to have students have a rudimentary vibrato used in their playing by the end of Book 2, but I have transfer students in Book 3 and 4 that are just now starting to work on vibrato. The parents I work with are always surprised at how long it takes to learn and incorporate a good vibrato- it really is one of those skills that runs along a continuum rather than being a one-time skill.


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## Mary-Beth

Thanks for the reply. That's interesting.
Dd1 is starting Long, Long Ago in book 2 and uses independent fingering but not the other bow hold. No mention of vibrato. (Her friends at group class about her age and playing level do both)

Dd2 is polishing up Etude in Book 1 and there's been no mention of independent fingerings. I'm sure the teacher we see has her own timing and ideas. I'm just curious what is standard-- if there is any type of "typical" timing for these things.. In out group class she is the only one (aside from the pretwinklers/twinklers) that uses block fingering. I know I cannot compare students-- but I guess I should ask our private teacher what her thoughts are on these issues.


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## greencat

A friend of mine gave me "A Book 1 Review Chart" to use at home for practice.

Instead of playing all from Book 1, it gives lists for two weeks that rotates.

Does anyone have such list for Book 2??

Thanks!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
A friend of mine gave me "A Book 1 Review Chart" to use at home for practice.

Instead of playing all from Book 1, it gives lists for two weeks that rotates.

Does anyone have such list for Book 2??

Thanks!

Here's my four-part list for Book 1 & 2 review. We tend to do this in daily rotation, so that we play most pieces twice in a given week.

13 minutes
Twinkles
O Come, Little Children
Perpetual Motion
Minuet 1
Gossec Gavotte
Long, Long Ago (Bk. 2)
Witches' Dance
Boccherini Minuet

9 minutes
Lightly Row
May Song
Allegretto
Minuet 2
Chorus
Waltz
Mignon Gavotte

8 minutes
Song of the Wind
Long, Long Ago (Bk. 1)
Andantino
Minuet 3
Musette
Handel Bourrée
Lully Gavotte

10 minutes
Go Tell Aunt Rhody
Allegro
Etude
Minuet 1
The Happy Farmer
Hunters' Chorus
The Two Grenadiers
Minuet in G

Times are based on "CD tempo" so obviously if the review pieces have got rusty, if there's polishing left to do or the student isn't comfortable with top tempo yet, the times will be a bit longer. Still, if students are overwhelmed by the amount of review at first, it's helpful to be able to point out "look, if these pieces are easy and well-remembered, you can play them quickly and it'll only take 10 minutes a day. Let's try to get to that point."

My favourite approach for review beyond Book 2/3 is what I call the "Review Hit List." I set it up as a chart which students fill out for themselves. Basically they assign pieces to Group A, B, C or D depending on how permanently-learned and well-remembered they are. Group A are the pieces the student knows so well they will never forget them. Group B is those unlikely to be forgotten but a bit more challenging. Group C is those that need regular attention to stay in the memory banks. Group D is those that are rusty or "missing in action."

Those in Group A are on a rota to be played once every 2 weeks. Group B gets played once a week. Group C gets twice-a-week treatment. From Group D you choose one of them to work on every day until it deserves to be promoted to Group C. Then you promote it and choose another Group D piece.

You multiply out the number of pieces and their required repetitions over a 2-week period to figure out how many you need to play each day, and then it's just a matter of ticking off that many boxes every practice.

Hard to describe and it looks intimidating at first, but once you fill it out it makes sense. You can have a look here: http://www.nurturedbylove.ca/resourc...ew_hitlist.pdf

Miranda


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## moominmamma

I've been teaching independent fingering much earlier in recent years. Or rather, "modified independent fingering," which I explain as "don't put a finger down until you need it, and don't pick a finger up until you need to." I often introduce it first with the 2nd finger in the last two bars of Lightly Row, and then we elaborate on that with the beginning of Song of the Wind, where we go up the scale by adding blocked fingers in the first bar, but then use only 1 and 3 in the third bar. Depending on how well the child manages this, we might "walk" the fingers down the descending scale ... or not.

But ... in very young children with lax joints, I'll continue the block fingering longer. Ditto in kids who struggle a bit more with maintaining proper framing of the left hand. In those kids I will wait until the G Major scale and Etude before really getting into finger independence in a significant way. I use "1 and 3 but not 2" explicitly to help students with placement of the "low 2" in G major, and extend finger independence from there if it hasn't been previously introduced.

Thumb-in bow-hold, again, it depends on several factors such as age, fine motor control, stability of the technique and such. Children who are writing comfortably with a pencil or pen are usually ready sooner than the littles. My range would be somewhere from Go Tell Aunt Rhody to the end of Book 1. Most kids rollick fairly quickly through the pieces from May Song to Perpetual Motion, so that's a nice time to make the shift.

Vibrato -- similar variability. If left hand is stable and relaxed, intonation in at least three different fingering patterns is accurate, and the child is very motivated to pursue vibrato, I'll start as early as the end of Book 1. To me vibrato and shifting preparation require many of the same skills, so I'll often look at those together. Since violists start shifting sooner, I'll try to introduce pre-vibrato and pre-shifting exercises by early Book 2. In violinists I try to be there by early Book 3. But sometimes sooner. Vibrato is something that I work on as a book-long project taking 6-12 months.

Miranda


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## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Quick question re:strings.

My daughter's teacher suggested Corelli crystals. Anyone else use those? What should I be using on my violin? I have a very nice Guarneri-styled violin which I adore. Should I just exchange the Dominant for one with a better wrap? Has the quality of Dominants dropped off or was this a fluke?

I play a wind instrument and the piano. I was pretty shocked at how much we spend on "maintenance" stuff to keep dd's violin in playing order: new strings 2x per year, $70 ea time, rehair 2-3x per year (based on how well dd treats it) $45 each time. An "inexpensive bow" is like $200.

(I just "upgraded my flute" for $270 on craigslist)

As far as strings, I've read quite a bit. Apparently Dominant are "industry standard." Around here it's about $48 to replace a set on a fractional violin (1/4 or 1/2), I don't know about on a full-sized. We once got a set of Evah Pirazzi strings on dd's 1/4 Doetsch a couple of years ago and fell in LOVE. Her teacher asked if we got a new violin.

When we just moved up to the next size, still a Doetsch, we got it with Dominant. We just actually had a whole adventure, b/c her teacher didn't like the tone, and I wasn't particularly excited either. But we had stuck with Pirazzi strings and I forgot to ask for them when we moved up. After getting her bow back after the rehair (the loaner bow was lousy), we asked for Pirazzi strings, and I think the luthier also adjusted the sound post or something when I said that the teacher didn't like the tone. We took it back with better bow, better strings, and adjustments, and he said it was great, or at least had better potential--better than "did the job."

The other guy (not the luthier, the desk guy) at the shop asked us why we wanted Pirazzi strings; the Doetsches are supposed to have the Dominant strings (a bit patronizing, really)! I said, well, much I know, but dd has had great experience with Pirazzi strings and that's what we're requesting. The luthier put them on, we tried it out and it was much better. I don't know what did the trick, but the tone was bigger and fatter, and brighter, although it seems to be mellowing and darkening as the strings break in a bit. Listen, I know when it sounds better, even if she is the violinist! She's almost 11. She knows what she likes. So the string price above is the Pirazzi strings, which we love.


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## moominmamma

Wow, Bekka, that is a lot of money. Your dd must be playing a lot!

My kids replace the upper strings as they wear out and the lower strings about once a year. We all use Dominants, even the adults and former pro's in our extended family -- except that I've started using Evah Pirazzi strings on my viola, because it's an inexpensive instrument that doesn't quite match up with the brighter ones in the chamber groups I play in and I was looking for more "oomph" from the C and G strings. We rehair bows once a year, except in the case of my eldest who plays 3-4 hours a day -- hers twice a year.

Miranda


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## insahmniak

Can I ask a string question, or at least what I think is a string question?

I have an e string that when I hit it from a dead stop (ie it's not vibrating) it often but not always produces a horrible high-pitched whistle instead of a ring. I can get it to ring if I hit it a second time and then I see it vibrate. But it's as if its reluctant to vibrate. Would that be caused by the string? The bow? My technique? It's a terrible sound.

And how, in general, does one tell when they are worn out and in need of replacing? I must admit I'm fairly guilty of just playing them until they break.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
I have an e string that when I hit it from a dead stop (ie it's not vibrating) it often but not always produces a horrible high-pitched whistle instead of a ring. I can get it to ring if I hit it a second time and then I see it vibrate. But it's as if its reluctant to vibrate. Would that be caused by the string? The bow? My technique? It's a terrible sound.

Ahh, the dreaded E-string whistle. Typically occurs when slurring across from a fingered A-string note. Classic place is in the 3rd bar of the violin solo part in Seitz No. 5 1st movement. Another sometimes problematic place is after the D# in Chorus from Judas Maccabaeus. It has much to do with the physics of the instrument. If the E-string is vibrating sympathetically, and your bow then hits it in a 'node' along the vibrating length, it'll often whistle. Digging in with the bow thumb a bit at the string crossing to slightly articulate the E-string note will help. Changing the point of contact (a little closer to the bridge, or a little further) of bow and string may help. Using a heavier gauge E (i.e. wound rather than straight steel) may help. And different instruments are much less susceptible. I find that instruments with a very bright sound on the upper strings are more likely to whistle.

No magic, I'm afraid. Not that I'm aware of.

Miranda


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## Bekka

Miranda,
I'm not really sure that dd is playing more than your dd. I know that I got Pirazzi strings on sale for like $60 one time, and then the other place said they price match--what are they trying to be competitive? Anyway, dd practices 90 min to 2 hrs. She has a few slow days, and she for some reason is very very hard on bow hair--I know other kids' bow hair doesn't wear out and get all grubby as fast as hers. She is so motivated though, these days, that I can't fault her for grubby hair. Her practice goals include working toward 120 min most days by the time she starts book 5.

We just fell in love with the Pirazzi strings and she responds so much to the tone that we decided to pay for them.


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## Bekka

Actually, not exactly concerns. When I first did some research, there was only one guitar teacher in our region, like 1 hr 15 min away that was a Suzuki teacher, and that's too far.

So I asked around and found out that a friend of ours plays guitar, acoustic and electric, and casually asked his wife, my very good friend, whether he would consider teaching ds. Ds knows him well and likes him a lot. I don't think our friend teaches regularly. We've been busy, and I discussed this a little with our friend and he said it sounded OK but then haven't explored it any more for a few weeks.

Very recently I found out that a teacher who has a MA in guitar has been working on Suzuki training and is introducing a Suzuki program for guitar about 25 min away from my house. The tuition is very reasonable for this region. He doesn't have group lessons yet, but since the program is just getting started, he's hoping to start group lessons as well, and the tuition would increase to include those.

He's doing some info sessions/parent education things in Sept. which I think we'll attend, but I'm concerned that if I fall in love with this program, and my son especially, what do I say to my friend (like I said, their family is very good friends of ours) about changing our minds? Obviously if we decide not to pursue the Suzuki program, then we don't have to say anything.

The Suzuki teacher (a guy!!) made the same points I was thinking--about casual training and lazy technique and unlearning bad habits, etc. He's young, just finishing school, and sounds great. He's been trained in teaching young children. It's almost like the program is falling in our laps to be honest.

Thoughts please. DS is very, very interested in playing guitar, and now owns like 3 guitar T shirts.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
Miranda,
I'm not really sure that dd is playing more than your dd.

She's certainly playing a lot more than my younger three (late book 4 through book 7). I'm embarrassed to admit they typically do 20-45 minutes of practicing a day. My eldest does 3-4 hours a day, but she's playing Bruch and Mendelssohn concertos and Bach Fugues now. When she was in Book 4 she was a half-hour-day kid too.









I sure understand you about falling in love with a sound and just dealing with the expense because there's really no going back. I remember the look on my ds's face when he fell in love with his Sabatier viola's sound. Or on my elder dd's face when she fell in love with an $800 bow. How's that Visa ad go? "Priceless...."

Am I right in gathering that your dd is on a half-sized Doetsch in Book 4? Tell her she's a lucky girl. I play a Doetsch viola. They make some wonderful instruments -- I manage with mine in a semi-professional capacity. My book 4 kid would think she had died and gone to heaven if she had an instrument capable of that kind of sound.

Miranda


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## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Am I right in gathering that your dd is on a half-sized Doetsch in Book 4? Tell her she's a lucky girl. I play a Doetsch viola. They make some wonderful instruments -- I manage with mine in a semi-professional capacity.

Yes. Our dd is very sensitive to tone, and really has responded so well to the more expensive violin that it adds to her motivation. Also our luthier has a very reasonable rent and then buy program: You can rent a very good quality instrument (like the Chinese ones that go for around $600 or $700) for a couple of years ($25 per month), then like 18 months of your rent go toward a "down payment" on any instrument that you buy from them.

Initially I got like $750 to pay on our 1/4 Doetsch, so I paid for the bow, violin and case, but only paid about $250.

After that, they do a "buy back" program where your previous instrument is a trade in, minus a $200 refurbishing fee. So to go up a size I paid $400, not the full price of a brand-new Doetsch.

They don't trade in the bows. Apparently the bows depreciate too much or get warped or something. It's still smaller chunks than putting out $1000 or $1400 every single time we go up a size on violin.

DD is a small (short, with short arms) 11 yo, and so the 1/2 size is brand new, and will probably fit her for about 2 years, unless she grows in a screaming leap and bound. (Her teacher is a bit particular; he was encouraging me to look at Kliers and Konos. Those are quite a bit more, so the strings and sound adjustments are our less expensive alternative. Eventually we'll get to Kliers, but you know, we have other kids!).


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## tiffani

Beginning Suzuki kid here -- just started a couple of months ago at the age of 9, and we LOVE her teacher, she's wonderful. My daughter really enjoys lessons, does not want to quit playing violin, but NEVER EVER wants to practice. ever. I'm wondering if we should reinstate the reward system that we had for twinkle, because she was KEEN to play with a reward at the end...









her teacher also mentioned starting her with reading music earlier than she would with younger students, as she is a very visual learner, is older than your average beginning player, and it seems like maybe she'd progress faster (thereby holding her interest) if she had the music in front of her.

I am no musician, and my dh is, but he's a 'play by ear' kind of musician... just wanted to check in with the suzuki moms here -- especially you, moominmama, with your unschooling perspective -- oh, I should mention that we're unschoolers, so it goes against my instincts to force her to practice, though I do threaten to stop taking her to lessons if she isn't going to practice -- that results in one solid *racing through it* practice, and then it's a struggle again the next day. she does really like her lessons... maybe we should just spring for daily lessons!









in a nutshell, I'm thinking bribes for practice time, maybe learning to read music??? I feel like she's in a slump (we're mid Go Tell Aunt Rhody), she's kind of bored, she's kind of frustrated that she isn't magically getting better, and I'm frustrated that she wants to play but doesn't want to practice... *sigh*


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## Bekka

Are you doing the listening with her? When dd starts to struggle, her teacher KNOWS she hasn't been listening.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
DD is a small (short, with short arms) 11 yo, and so the 1/2 size is brand new, and will probably fit her for about 2 years, unless she grows in a screaming leap and bound.

Having small kids is a challenge if they're learning to play a stringed instrument from a young age. I think it's especially important to "buy tone" for small kids, because their peers of a similar age and level will be playing bigger instruments with concomitantly bigger sound. There are additional challenges due to the physics of small instruments that make them harder to play, and I think it's worth doing whatever you can to make things easier.

My 6yo is playing a 1/10th, and I am wondering what we'll do when she gets to the Largo of the Vivaldi a minor ... there's a place where you're playing more than an octave above open A in 5th position and it is physically impossible to play the B-flat up there on her instrument because due to the short string length the A-string ends up pressed down below the level of the D and E-strings, meaning the bow can't reach the string to make it speak. Probably she'll have to use modified fingerings until she's on an 1/8th.

Miranda


----------



## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Having small kids is a challenge if they're learning to play a stringed instrument from a young age. I think it's especially important to "buy tone" for small kids, because their peers of a similar age and level will be playing bigger instruments with concomitantly bigger sound. There are additional challenges due to the physics of small instruments that make them harder to play, and I think it's worth doing whatever you can to make things easier.

Yeah, especially if we're hoping (very much) that the violin will last her in this size, and if she gets very very motivated, she could be a book 6 student playing on this same instrument, and so it really needs to be something that she can ask a lot of. If she grows faster, it may only last 1 year. But she seems to go up bow sizes faster than violin sizes--I insisted on making sure that we'll get the "outfit price" for a violin bow increase, which should save us a couple hundred, because the non-outfit price is pretty hefty. She may go up in bow size as soon as 6 months from now. I think her right arm may actually be shorter than her left arm, and her musical peers are all younger than her in our program. She has 1 friend a year older than her, but she has just finished Bk 1.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 
My daughter really enjoys lessons, does not want to quit playing violin, but NEVER EVER wants to practice. ever. I'm wondering if we should reinstate the reward system that we had for twinkle,

I'm not one for rewards, but I do understand that sometimes putting in the time and the work necessary to get over a plateau requires something more than just instrinsic motivation. I've found that objective, tangible measurement of the work is often enough and that rewards aren't required. Some examples of ways to illustrate work in tangible ways:

Light a candle at the beginning of each practice session, blowing it out at the end. Tiny slender tapers are the most gratifying. Marking off inches and half-inches can make it more fun and encourage a child to self-challenge. See how soon she can do a "candle's worth" of practicing.

Put a hundred beans in a jar and have an empty jar to put beside it. Every time she plays a review piece, move a bean into the empty jar. Watch it fill up and she'll see all the work she's doing. You can do the same thing with a chart made on paper -- colour in a square every time she does something.

Find 9 places or positions she can practice in around your home (I usually do repetitions to match age -- you could choose less). Things like standing on the kitchen stool, standing in the bathtub, kneeling on the floor, on the deck, facing into the corner of the living room, standing on left leg, standing on right leg, sticking out tongue, etc. ... and play anything that requires repetitions in all those different ways.

Coin toss. Ten pennies (or more, or less, depending on how ambitious she's feeling that day). She picks heads or tails. Toss first penny. If she wins the toss she gets to choose what to practice -- anything! It could be something really simple like "make a perfect bowhold three times" or "sing Twinkle Theme using the note-names." Once she's done that task, set the penny somewhere. Toss the next penny. When you win you can choose one of the lesson assignments, or something you've noticed that you think could be worked on. As you work through the pennies, line them up so that she can see the work she's done, and know how much is left.

*******************

When a child loves her lessons but hates her practicing, it's worth asking yourself "how can I make practicing more like the lesson?" Sure, a lot of the difference in attitude comes from the difference in relationships, but I still think it's worth examining what's working so well about lessons and trying to do more of that at home. I find that running a mental camcorder while I'm working with my child is helpful -- because I usually discover that I'm much more demanding and negative, and much less appreciative, than the teacher. A friend of mine, Stephanie Judy, once put together a "Parent's Daily Dozen" checklist / self-evaluation survey as a reminder to parents about how much of a role they have in creating an enjoyable practicing regimen. Here is a bare-bones version of it:

1. Listening: I played the recording ____ times today.
2. Setting a time: We agreed in advance on a time for today's practice.
3. Preparing: I prepared for today's practice.
4. Initiating the practice: I gave my child warning before practice time.
5. "Bracketing" the practice: We began/ended our practice with a bow.
6. Parent's priority: I gave our practice time a high priority.
7. Encouragement: I expressed sincere appreciation for my child's efforts.
8. Positive environment: I created a positive environment for practicing.
9. Giving choices: My child made choices about how/what to practice.
10. Tonalization: Our practice included tonalization.
11. Review: Our practice included review (P = partial, C = complete).
12. Ending the practice: We ended the practice on a positive note.
PARENT'S SUMMARY: What was today's practice like?
STUDENT'S SUMMARY: How did your practice partner do today?
STUDENT'S SUMMARY: How did you do today?

It's a useful reminder for me, even after all these years. I find that number 12 is the most magical one of all. If, for even two or three days, I can somehow make the practicing end with giggles and smiles, doing whatever is necessary to make that happen, resistance vanishes.

Hope that helps!

Miranda


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## Stacymom

Miranda, those are awesom ideas. Thanks!

And re: upsizing instruments. Can I just say ugh! We're in the process of moving from a 1/8 to a 1/4, and although I worked in music retail for 10 years and know the business inside and out, I still don't like the process! We found 1/4 Pygmalius that we like, but I'm hating the bow that we have with it. My daughter is starting 3rd Seitz in Bk 4, and working on spicatto, etc, and the bow is terrible! Its just really, really hard to make a trip to the music store with three littles in tow...

I too agree about getting the best instrument possible for their size. Its so important for tone development! My dd is 7, and when we started looking at instruments this time around, I knew we had to look at everything because she'll be playing Bach Double and beyond on this violin!

Bekka, I've never tried the Eva Pirazzis on a fractional violin- I didn't even know that was a possiblity! I loved the Pirazzis on my violin, but found I couldn't justify the expense. They also seemed to take forever to break in, and didn't have that long of a life! I may try them on dd's new violin though to help with some of the brightness. My favorite all time string when I was in college and playing 8 or so hours a day was the Corelli Alliance, but again at $100 a pop on a college student's budget and replacing them every 2-3 months? Ouch. Problem is, they don't make em anymore.

About the E String whistle: two different things to try. First off, make sure the arm weight is solidly on the E string when you change strings. If you find a whistle consistently, try dropping the bow arm down more when you switch to the E string and that may help. The other thing that may help is trying a wound E string rather than a steel one. My favorite is the Eudoxa Wound E (not the Eudoxa gold). My violin is very prone to E string whistles, and the heavier gauge of the wound E helps it sing a little better.

(I should have multiquoted this message...)

Tiffani, has your teacher introduced anything other than Suzuki music at lessons? Don't get me wrong, I'm a die hard Suzuki teacher. But I find that especially with older beginners, the early Book 1 songs sound and feel a lot like "baby songs" to the kids, and its hard to get them motivated. A few well-placed fiddle songs or something like it might do wonders at this point. I think reading music is also a really good idea. But as a teacher, I would have a hard time teaching a student from week to week who wasn't practicing. Its frustrating for the teacher and the student to do the same lesson over and over again because the student isn't practicing at home.


----------



## tiffani

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I'm not one for rewards, but I do understand that sometimes putting in the time and the work necessary to get over a plateau requires something more than just instrinsic motivation. I've found that objective, tangible measurement of the work is often enough and that rewards aren't required.

I actually think that's the magic in the sticker chart, much more than the reward at the end -- she could see her progress, and be proud of how much she was accomplishing. thank you so much for the ideas, though, those are great!!!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
I still think it's worth examining what's working so well about lessons and trying to do more of that at home.

a thousand thank you's, this is so obvious but I totally missed it -- I've been sort of barking at her to practice, thinking that I needed to stay out of the process as much as possible (as much as you can with suzuki) but I need to do the opposite, I need to "connect before I direct"







just like anything else in parenting... thanks for the reminder!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stacymom* 
Tiffani, has your teacher introduced anything other than Suzuki music at lessons? Don't get me wrong, I'm a die hard Suzuki teacher. But I find that especially with older beginners, the early Book 1 songs sound and feel a lot like "baby songs" to the kids, and its hard to get them motivated. A few well-placed fiddle songs or something like it might do wonders at this point. I think reading music is also a really good idea. But as a teacher, I would have a hard time teaching a student from week to week who wasn't practicing. Its frustrating for the teacher and the student to do the same lesson over and over again because the student isn't practicing at home.

she hasn't introduced anything else, and that might be helpful, but I think it's pretty obvious that lucy isn't putting in the time to practice. It is frustrating for all of us, I think -- part of the issue is the lack of listening (you caught us Bekka!







) as we couldn't get the disk for a while, and could only listen to it on the computer, so it wasn't that handy... then we had a string of illness, so practice wasn't happening... yada yada yada, I think we're all sick to death of being stuck in this rut, but I'm so glad I found this thread, it's been super helpful, and I feel like I have some great ideas to put into action...

feeling much better, thanks!


----------



## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 
I think -- part of the issue is the lack of listening (you caught us Bekka!







) as we couldn't get the disk for a while, and could only listen to it on the computer, so it wasn't that handy...

Here are some thoughts for making listening easier. If a listening device for your dd is in your budget, you might do that. We got dd a CD player when she was only 5 years old to give her ownership of the listening, and burned a copy of whichever CD she was on. Now she has a little MP3 player--not a fancy one, it only holds 2 GB worth of files (boy that looks strange--the first computer I had was a 40 MB harddrive and it wasn't that old ...).

Put a CD in your car. Listen while going places (captive audience). If you have more than one CD thing in your tray (we have 3 at our house) in your stereo (OK, we're old school), then designate 1 as the Suzuki CD. Permanently.

I will say that our teacher always says "all you have to do is push the button." Well, you have to set it up to be easy to push the button--find the CD, maybe the baby is eating the case, threw up on it, pulled it out of the CD rack, or whatever. Maybe it melted in the car. So set yourself up for success. (Our violin teachers only have 1 little baby right now ...).

DH is a copyright fanatic, and insists on "doing things legally." So I'm sure this is right--if you buy a CD, you can legally make copies for your own personal use. You can also copy songs off it to save to your MP3 player. This is all legal under copyright law.


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## Bekka

Oh, and I loved this way of practicing--when dd was about 6 and having huge motivation issues, a favorite way of doing practice was to play pretend--she was the travelling minstrel and travelled all around the country playing to different audiences. So she dressed up like a minstrel and she played in England (kitchen), France (LR), etc.


----------



## tiffani

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
Put a CD in your car. Listen while going places (captive audience).

one more reason why we rarely listen to the CD, we don't have a CD player in our car, or any MP3/ipods, what have you... we bought lucy a portable cd player, but then our CD burner went out on our computer (we're in new zealand, and the suzuki CD's are about $50, so our teacher lent us hers to copy







, so we couldn't burn the disk for the longest time. lots of little things have been standing in the way of the listening, but we're remedying that currently... we're only in NZ for a year or so, we're leasing our car (so we're not going to add a CD player) don't have a good stereo to listen on, etc... not excuses so much as small obstacles









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
Oh, and I loved this way of practicing--when dd was about 6 and having huge motivation issues, a favorite way of doing practice was to play pretend--she was the travelling minstrel and travelled all around the country playing to different audiences. So she dressed up like a minstrel and she played in England (kitchen), France (LR), etc.

that is such a great idea, especially for my geography/history hound of a daughter!


----------



## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 
lots of little things have been standing in the way of the listening, but we're remedying that currently...

Good for you! It's important to have the big picture and to see past the little things.

I have a student who had lots of little things standing in the way of his listening. He was getting only a fraction of the benefit from the lessons that he should have been getting due to lack of listening. When I pointed out to his family that they'd been paying for months of $20 lessons and getting $5 of benefit due to lack of listening they realized that dropping the $80 on a small-capacity iPod shuffle was actually a very good investment. It's so easy to think of listening as an "extra" rather than as an integral part of the music learning. Comparing it directly to lessons in terms of cost and benefit can be eye-opening.

Miranda


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## tiffani

I think I just figured out what we'll be getting lucy for her birthday!


----------



## Malva

I'll chime in too.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 
Beginning Suzuki kid here -- just started a couple of months ago at the age of 9, and we LOVE her teacher, she's wonderful. My daughter really enjoys lessons, does not want to quit playing violin, but NEVER EVER wants to practice. ever.

My almost 10yo dd started piano last year with a Suzuki-inspired teacher.

She doesn't have all the years of musical practice the other kids have so I worked really hard at establishing a routine so that practicing can become part of her day, every day. Just something that is done.

So we picked a time where she could have my undivided attention (after her brother goes to bed at night, in our case) and I make sure to really protect that time slot. Every night, I remind her: We'll do piano when I come back down. When I come back down, the grumbling is generally minimal and once at the piano, she's fine.

I think she likes the special time with me. I sit with her and check things off on her practice sheet, count the reps, help her focus on whatever her teacher emphasized at the last lesson, point out stuff, sing the notes, clap the beat, whatever she needs me to.

Since she's new, I feel she needs help with both getting to practice everyday and what to do during that practice time to progress. Left to herself, it wouldn't be very effective.

If we don't really have time one day, we still sit at the piano and run through most of the stuff once. Just to help cement the routine.

Hope it helps!


----------



## ShanaT

I was getting a lot of resistance to listening to CD 1 daily, so I got CDs 2 through 4 and mixed them up into a playlist on my ipod, threw in a couple "fiddle tunes" that he likes and we listen to it through the day.


----------



## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Malva* 
She doesn't have all the years of musical practice the other kids have so I worked really hard at establishing a routine so that practicing can become part of her day, every day. Just something that is done.

So we picked a time where she could have my undivided attention (after her brother goes to bed at night, in our case) and I make sure to really protect that time slot. Every night, I remind her: We'll do piano when I come back down. When I come back down, the grumbling is generally minimal and once at the piano, she's fine.

I think she likes the special time with me. I sit with her and check things off on her practice sheet, count the reps, help her focus on whatever her teacher emphasized at the last lesson, point out stuff, sing the notes, clap the beat, whatever she needs me to.

Since she's new, I feel she needs help with both getting to practice everyday and what to do during that practice time to progress. Left to herself, it wouldn't be very effective.

My 10yo has been playing for four years now and I still do all those things with her.


----------



## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShanaT* 
I was getting a lot of resistance to listening to CD 1 daily, so I got CDs 2 through 4 and mixed them up into a playlist on my ipod, threw in a couple "fiddle tunes" that he likes and we listen to it through the day.

We had a similar problem!

I've been gradually compiling an "alternative" playlist of other versions of Suzuki songs that we include in our rotation. Some of our favorites are Yo Yo Ma's Bach Bourree, Perlman's Seitz 2/3, Anne-Sophie Mutter's Minuet in G, and Gabe Bolkosky's jazz improv versons of Humoresque and Gavotte in g minor. DD and I listened to several orchestra recordings of Gavotte in D. Each treated the grace notes very differently, so she picked the one she liked best and got a little lesson in musicology at the same time. 

If anyone has suggestions for other alternate versions of the repertoire I'd love to hear them!


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## megincl

We need to get a metronome, and I'm wondering if folks around here have particular ones they like. If so, can you share why?

Thanks!


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## Bekka

You can find an online metronome and A for tuning for free. Can't remember the links, but you can google it.

I have an antique (Grandma's) tick tock metronome. These are GREAT, they're around $100 new. Had no idea.

We have a small metronome that dh had that's credit card sized, but thicker. These are probably $12 or something.

For string instruments, getting a metronome that has an A=440 is very, very helpful. We like ours, but it's not "favorite." We'd be happy with another as well. A good electronic metronome is like $40. Just be prepared to pay it--it's a good tool that will last a long time.

You can even get the tuning A to be adjustable--some orchestra directors like A=442 or something like that. Ours adjusts from like 438 to 446.


----------



## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *megincl* 
We need to get a metronome, and I'm wondering if folks around here have particular ones they like. If so, can you share why?

We have a ton of metronomes in this family, including several expensive ones. We've bought them like crazy to support multiple kids practicing at multiple times, their travel, one for the piano room, one for my teaching studio, etc..

On the high end we like the Boss Dr. Beat (very complicated beat patterns and other features) and Korg (much simpler) metronomes, especially the models that are advertised as being loud. A full-sized violin can drown out smaller metronomes. Having one with a strong visual prompt helps, but isn't always enough. The credit-card sized ones are nice and portable but are rarely loud enough to be heard over a violin. For inexpensive metronomes we've found the Sabine Zipbeat to be a good value ... and loud enough most of the time, though it cannot be heard over string quartets.

Miranda


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## cranberry99

Hi. I am a violinist trying to learn viola. I have a daughter who is 2 3/4 and whenever she sees me play she says, "I want (and then does the hand motions for violin)!" My mother is an old-school Suzuki teacher, and she wants me to make her a cardboard violin. I took the first Suzuki book from Ronda Cole and she teaches a totally different style. She emphasizes waiting longer until the child is ready for a real violin. I would love to have a violin for her to play, but she is not ready for a real instrument. I'm not sure if a cardboard violin would satisfy her, and I don't have the tools to create a bow to go with a cardboard violin. I'm not sure which teaching methodology I agree with. I've heard lots of newer teachers saying that they were happy they didn't start with the cardboard one, but I have no experience with this myself. Every day (if I leave my case where she can get into it) she will undo my case and take the violin and bow out and start playing the violin lying down on the ground, actually producing sound. Any opinions out there? Also, do you know of any good links to pre-twinkle activites on the web? Thanks


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## Bekka

Listening, Rhythm activities, singing on pitch (mimicking), Simon Says (do as I do) are all good pretwinkle activities 2-4 year olds love.

Can't you do a good bowhold on a stick? When dd started (with her cardboard violin) she was "teaching dd2" violin with 2 sticks. She wanted to play at 2; we waited until 3. She did start with an (old school) cardboard violin; when we moved here her current teachers do not start beginners on a cardboard violin. However they start 3 yo's on a wooden violin. I rented an "economy violin" for ds who tried for a few months when he was 4; it turned out that he wasn't ready then. He'll be 6 in Dec. and we're looking at guitar programs/options, now.


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## moominmamma

I think that a lot of the problems teachers run into with cardboard violins has to do with grand expectations meeting up with the reality of being merely given a prop, not an instrument. The dissatisfaction of being given a prop is far more likely, IMO, if the child is over the age of 4, and if there is the commencement of formal lessons which has led the child (+/- parent) to believe the child will be "learning to play the violin."

My then-2yo was perfectly happy with a cardboard violin and dowel -- just as she was at that age perfectly happy with a stuffed bunny and not a real one. Her instruction began informally at home, and she was under no illusions that she was going to be playing Twinkles soon; she just wanted to feel like she was beginning to play-act the sort of skills she could see her family engaging in.

After about 6 months she moved onto a real violin. By that point she had excellent basic posture, good rhythmic skills, and was eager to do skill-oriented diligent daily practicing. She was no longer satisfied with a box, but she had shown herself to be more than ready for a real instrument.

My first three kids taught me that Ronda Cole is right -- that it's best to wait until 4 or 5, because you can then move more efficiently through the basics. My youngest child taught me that there is no right or wrong about any of this -- it depends on the child, the parent and the particular situation.

I believe Shar and YMOnline sell inexpensive "boxolin" type things that come with a bowstick w/frog. A dowel worked for us, though.

Miranda


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## Bekka

Of course, when your 3 year old is at the group class with her box violin and says, "but where's the E string on MY violin!" Everyone has a wonderful chuckle and laugh, and absolute "aww" moment for all the parents.

For us, a box violin gave dd1 a few more months to grow, too, b/c she was a very small 3. She started on a 1/32nd real violin! Looks like a toy (sounds like a toy ...). From time to time the kids get out the box violins (I had one too) and foamalin and pretend to to do violin lessons, although dd1 is the only string player at this point.


----------



## HotMama

Hi all, my dd turned seven last June, and has been playing violin since 4 1/2, with an 8 month break at five. She's recently zoomed through the book 1 minuets, then "forgot" them, got stressed about starting first grade or something, so now I've banished the minuets for one week to enjoy review...otherwise I was ready to quit/or take a long break. It was great reading earlier in this thread about being grateful to parents for torturing them through daily practice. We'll see ; ) She's not terribly focused, especially with a distracting younger sister around. She also wants to switch to cello, but when meeting the cello teacher at a local play-in, she wanted to stay with her regular teacher. When should we switch? Fourth grade is when they get strings at school (we're at a Waldorf school)>
Her sister is focused, and wants a violin badly. I'm going to bring down a box violin we have in the attic, after reading about playing with the rythyms with youngers here. She's been singing the Suzuki songs since 8 months old, and loves counting/math type things, so I imagine she may take to it well. I'm not ready for practice with two, so I'm holding off on lessons for another year or so.
Thanks for starting this tribe! I look forward to reading the rest of the thread!


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## insahmniak

HotMama -
About switching to cello, I think that's a pretty tough call. For kids who have trouble with focus, switching up instruments might be almost reflexive. My own thinking is that sticking with one instrument, even through the darker periods, will provide the most "gain" in terms of competency, appreciation and character. But I know there are many paths and perspectives. Perhaps cello is indeed the instrument for her. Perhaps for her particular personality the music exposure she would gain the most from is broad rather than narrow. I suppose the decision probably hinges on what your goals are as a parent in providing her with lessons. Maybe some other articulate mamas and mama teachers will chime in with sage advice.

Dd's now working on Martini Gavotte and I want to get it off my chest that this piece is driving me absolutely nuts. This is precisely the kind of piece that makes me want to shove a pick in my ear for relief. I'm hoping we get through it fast. I think I'll ask the teacher to please try to include the third position to help it become more interesting. Is this piece played at institutes much or is it passed over? I'm looking for relief but I turn the page and here comes Minuet 3...again. Help!

I have a question about the summer music camp at Interlochen. I was there in the early '80s over one summer. And my best recollection is that it was 8 weeks long. I started feeling pretty nostalgic about it and went looking at their website for information. From what I can tell they don't offer 8 week programs anymore. The time I spent there was an amazing, singular experience for me that I was hoping to eventually provide for my daughter. I feel kind of disappointed to think that I might save and save and save and save up for it for years just for it to be over so quickly. What happened to the 8-week program? Anyone know? Anyone here either go or send their kids?


----------



## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 

Dd's now working on Martini Gavotte and I want to get it off my chest that this piece is driving me absolutely nuts. This is precisely the kind of piece that makes me want to shove a pick in my ear for relief. I'm hoping we get through it fast. I think I'll ask the teacher to please try to include the third position to help it become more interesting. Is this piece played at institutes much or is it passed over? I'm looking for relief but I turn the page and here comes Minuet 3...again. Help!

Sorry to say, they worked on Martini a TON in my daughter's C class at Stevens Point this summer. That piece drove me nuts too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 

I have a question about the summer music camp at Interlochen. I was there in the early '80s over one summer. And my best recollection is that it was 8 weeks long. I started feeling pretty nostalgic about it and went looking at their website for information. From what I can tell they don't offer 8 week programs anymore. The time I spent there was an amazing, singular experience for me that I was hoping to eventually provide for my daughter. I feel kind of disappointed to think that I might save and save and save and save up for it for years just for it to be over so quickly. What happened to the 8-week program? Anyone know? Anyone here either go or send their kids?

I was at Interlochen in the early '80s too! Loved that place. Loved loved LOVED it! Yes, it was 8 weeks long, and it isn't any more. The whole camp season now is only 6 weeks long and they have it divided (I believe) into 3-week sessions. I have no idea how they manage to do Shakespeare and musicals any more. I have also heard that the general quality of the program has gone down since our day. I hope that's not true. If anyone has been there recently I'd love to hear about it.


----------



## Morgan's mama

Hi! I didn't know this tribe existed. I originally posted my question in the learning at home forum, but was guided here.

How old should the child be to begin cello instruction, and exactly what kind of commitment would be needed from the parent? Doesn't Suzuki require a lot of parent involvement? I have 14 month old twins and I would love to be involved, but I have to be realistic. What is the difference between Suzuki and traditional?

Thanks!
Jamie


----------



## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juuulie* 
Sorry to say, they worked on Martini a TON in my daughter's C class at Stevens Point this summer. That piece drove me nuts too.

I was at Interlochen in the early '80s too! Loved that place. Loved loved LOVED it! Yes, it was 8 weeks long, and it isn't any more. The whole camp season now is only 6 weeks long and they have it divided (I believe) into 3-week sessions. I have no idea how they manage to do Shakespeare and musicals any more. I have also heard that the general quality of the program has gone down since our day. I hope that's not true. If anyone has been there recently I'd love to hear about it.

Hail! Hail to old Interlochen. Land of the stately pine.....

How old were you? I was there in 1981 and I wore dark blue stockings. Cabin 8. I remember the arts I was exposed to - oh my word! Plays. Musicals. Jazz and Blues. Something impressive to see darn near every night, all the whole dang summer long. Bloody Fridays - I wonder if they still do those. I loved them. The drama! A couple of us stayed in touch through HS. And one of us ended up at the Arts Academy there. Sigh. Please - anyone with the lowdown care to update us? I'd love to hear from someone who has been there recently.

So sorry to hear about the Martini. I wonder why. It seems like an endless series of repetition and variation. I can see just a little opportunity for vibrato, and some shifting. And of course there's always good tone. Maybe it's like another twinkle where your mind doesn't have to work so then you can open yourself to new technique? Oh, and what's the scoop on the mordents? I heard a rumor that they're being dropped. ¿Verdad?


----------



## RiverSky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Morgan's mama* 
Hi! I didn't know this tribe existed. I originally posted my question in the learning at home forum, but was guided here.

How old should the child be to begin cello instruction, and exactly what kind of commitment would be needed from the parent? Doesn't Suzuki require a lot of parent involvement? I have 14 month old twins and I would love to be involved, but I have to be realistic. What is the difference between Suzuki and traditional?

Thanks!
Jamie

I have an unschooled son taking Suzuki violin (he's 10). I'm not sure
how small the smallest cellos are, but I know our violin teacher has 3 and 4 year old students. I imagine some children aren't quite ready at 3 but
are at 4, so I wouldstart lessons around that age,
assuming there are cellos to accommodate such little youngsters.

I think you should read some books about the Suzuki method...there seem
to be a ton of them. I borrowed the ones I read from my son's violin
teacher and don't recall the names, but imagine anything written BY
Shinichi Suzuki would be good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_method

Parental involvement would include a 30 or 45 minute solo lesson for each
child once a week and you would need to be right there with your child,
paying attention. I don't think your teacher would do a dual lesson for
that, but who knows. There would also most likely be a weekly group
class, perhaps a 30 minute class. On top of that, your children will be
practicing every day for say 30 minutes. Of course, that time will go up as
they progress but it will also be an individual number, I assume. I'm sure
you could manage just fine having your two children practicing together,
with you there. Yes, you would need to be there, guiding and assisting
with your children's practice every time, 7 days a week. Chances are, you
will need a good CD player/stereo that you can switch between tracks on
as your children practices.

You also need to play the Suzuki CD (a recorded version of all the songs in book 1, for starters) each day at some point. It's a good thing to have on in your car, around the house, perhaps playing around bedtime, etc. The more familiar your child is with the music, the easier it will be for them to master the pieces.

Good luck.


----------



## Morgan's mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Morgan's mama* 
Hi! I didn't know this tribe existed. I originally posted my question in the learning at home forum, but was guided here.

How old should the child be to begin cello instruction, and exactly what kind of commitment would be needed from the parent? Doesn't Suzuki require a lot of parent involvement? I have 14 month old twins and I would love to be involved, but I have to be realistic. What is the difference between Suzuki and traditional?

Thanks!
Jamie

Oh, I should clarify; the lessons would be for my 5 1/2 year old dd. I'm wondering if Suzuki would be too much for me to keep up with b/c I also have 14 month old twins.


----------



## Bekka

We have multiple children. Our eldest does Suzuki violin. I accompany the group on piano at some of the group classes. It is a team parenting effort--if I have all the kids it is much, much more difficult to do her lesson, although she now has 60 min lessons. When dd1 was very small and starting out, I was able to leave my 18 month old LO with a neighbor for her lesson time each week. I didn't do anything at the group classes at that time.

It is a big emotional commitment; very good for you and her, but I was ready to quit about 599 times before 6 mos. But 6 mos. things were much better. Then again a couple of years later. The last couple of years have been very good. She's taking responsibility for her own stuff. I even have to just "back off" and let her do her own thing with reminders about practice and stuff. She disappears for her practice now... She was 3; might have been better to start her when she was 4 or 5, but she was SO insistent...


----------



## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
How old were you? I was there in 1981 and I wore dark blue stockings. Cabin 8. I remember the arts I was exposed to - oh my word! Plays. Musicals. Jazz and Blues. Something impressive to see darn near every night, all the whole dang summer long.

Maybe there's other programs that are very good?

I remember WANTING to go to Interlochen, but I wasn't musically good enough on any specific instrument. But I drooled over the brochures my band director had in his office. Not that we had any money for it either ...


----------



## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 

Hail! Hail to old Interlochen. Land of the stately pine.....

Where stalwart hands and loyal ever greet you, faithful to auld lang syne...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 

How old were you? I was there in 1981 and I wore dark blue stockings. Cabin 8. I remember the arts I was exposed to - oh my word! Plays. Musicals. Jazz and Blues. Something impressive to see darn near every night, all the whole dang summer long. Bloody Fridays - I wonder if they still do those. I loved them. The drama! A couple of us stayed in touch through HS. And one of us ended up at the Arts Academy there. Sigh. Please - anyone with the lowdown care to update us? I'd love to hear from someone who has been there recently.

So you must have been a Junior if you were wearing dark blue, unless you were in college? I was in Intermediates (red socks) in 1980-81 and High School (light blue) in '82. I loved Bloody Fridays too. Oh, the adrenaline rush! And new orchestra music every week, woo hoo!! I'd rather sightread than polish, any day.







I still can't hear Les Preludes without tearing up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 

So sorry to hear about the Martini. I wonder why. It seems like an endless series of repetition and variation. I can see just a little opportunity for vibrato, and some shifting. And of course there's always good tone. Maybe it's like another twinkle where your mind doesn't have to work so then you can open yourself to new technique? Oh, and what's the scoop on the mordents? I heard a rumor that they're being dropped. ¿Verdad?

Yeah, except that your mind DOES have to work -- at remembering which section comes next.







Actually, we seem to be using Martini mainly for spiccato. We've never done any shifting in it, maybe because we never bothered to "upgrade" to the revised edition. (We didn't shift in Humoresque either.) There aren't any mordents in our old book, either. Are you referring to the Minuet?


----------



## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 

I think you should read some books about the Suzuki method... there seem to be a ton of them. I borrowed the ones I read from my son's violin teacher and don't recall the names, but imagine anything written BY Shinichi Suzuki would be good.

I highly recommend _Helping Parents Practice_ by Ed Sprunger. It really gives a fantastic overview of what the Suzuki philosophy is all about, in addition to the more specific stuff about practicing techniques. I re-read it two or three times a year and I always find something new and inspiring in it.


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## Stacymom

So what do you do when it all falls apart? I'm so frustrated with our practicing right now, and I really am at my wits end.

Some background: I'm a Suzuki violin teacher, and my dd is 7 and has been playing for 4 years. We're currently in the middle of book 4- Seitz 3. She's working with a very demanding teacher who both my daughter and I love, who is very picky. We have hour long lessons, 1 1/2 hour groups twice a month and we're expected to practice 1 1/2 hrs a day.

Abby normally works really hard. We made some phenomenal progress over the summer, our practices were mostly pleasant. Now everything is falling apart. There's a couple of reasons that I see-

1- We recently went from a 1/8th to a 1/4, changing shoulder rests along the way. Her position is all weird now, and she's really struggling with basic things like bowing straight.

2-She started school a few weeks ago, which necessitates morning practice. Since I teach in the afternoons, morning is the only time for practice. She is morning person, and is regularly up before 6, so I don't think the early practice is the problem. I do think she's distracted about school though. In the summer, she knew she couldn't go out to play until the practicing was done.

3-I think the whole "Mom is also a teacher" dynamic isn't working very well. I'm pretty darn picky, and I may be pressuring her with that other parents might not pick up on.

4- She's frustrated with the work involved in polishing. She's perfectly content to slop through everything. She's at the stage where she has to care about what she's playing. I can't make her play with good dynamics, vibrato etc, and she gets really frustrated when I bring it up.

So our practicing has been horrible the past week or so. I actually had to leave the room this morning and have her finish by herself because I was having such a hard time controlling myself. Quitting is not an option, (although I was wishing today that it was! We would save a lot of money and a lot of time!) because she's too talented, and she loves the results. She likes lessons, group classes, performing, etc.

I guess I need a reminder that we'll get through this- that we won't always hate practicing. I emailed her teacher and gave her a heads up, and she was super understanding. She mentioned that we may need to back off a little while, and let her have more responsibility for herself.

Anyone btdt and have magic advice? Bekka? Miranda? I keep wondering what I would tell a parent in this situation in my studio, and I just don't know! (Plus, even my most advanced students aren't practicing an hour and a half a day!)


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## HotMama

Thanks for the heads-up on cello. We're doing better, I'm adding more fun into practice which is helping tons. We'll switch to cello around fourth grade, when they start strings at school, unless something major shifts.

Thanks for the practice ideas folks have shared...we're wandering minstrels, traveling the world on Fridays, and pulling "easter" eggs for songs to play on Mondays (with a ch. chip or two for those pieces driving her nuts), and I'll probably add a few game boards to the mix soon. We're also doing review songs (easy breezy ones) in the morning while I put breakfast on, and doing the rest of practice after school.


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## HotMama

Holy moly...an hour and a half a day before school! That would send me over the edge, and my 7 yr old dd would throw the violin out the window. We just switched practices to after school, which isn't ideal, but we are doing 1st grade which starts on time and dd isn't a morning person. We've had a really rough late Summer, but tonight when we were doing our family meeting, she thanked me for helping her learn violin...there are many rough periods for us, and then there's the not so rough periods. I do know that when I let up on my hopes for her, we both have more fun ; )


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
HotMama -

I have a question about the summer music camp at Interlochen. I was there in the early '80s over one summer. And my best recollection is that it was 8 weeks long. I started feeling pretty nostalgic about it and went looking at their website for information. From what I can tell they don't offer 8 week programs anymore. The time I spent there was an amazing, singular experience for me that I was hoping to eventually provide for my daughter. I feel kind of disappointed to think that I might save and save and save and save up for it for years just for it to be over so quickly. What happened to the 8-week program? Anyone know? Anyone here either go or send their kids?

I went to Interlochen in '86 and '87. I loved it!! I was in Cabin 26 and Cabin 1. A lot of things have changed since our day. No more knickers - campers can wear shorts now.

I think the changing school calendars had a lot to do with the shortened sessions. So many schools have year-round schedules now. The county where I teach gets out on June 5, then starts up again on August 2.


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## tiffani

I just wanted to thank you all again for the tips on making practice more enticing for my daughter (and myself







)... we're having a lot more fun now, and she can really see the difference practicing makes, which is encouraging, and makes practicing more fun!









I'll be back someday with new issues I'm sure!


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## Bird Girl

Stacymom, it sounds like our daughters are in the same place! My DD is polishing the 3rd Seitz, recently moved up to the 1/4 size violin, and everything was totally thrown out of whack!

Two things have really helped us. She has master classes with James Hutchins over the summer, and his emphasis on proper positioning has encouraged both DD's teacher and me to focus on positioning as the primary concern. My DD had developed the habit of "re-adjusting" her violin on her shoulder and re-setting her chin almost as a tic--anytime she was unsure of anything, or stopped to re-play a section or talk to her teacher or me. Consequently, she was gripping the violin neck tightly with her left hand--with all those attendant problems. James recommends holding the violin in proper position, using only the head, and no left arm, for an entire 30 minute TV show. Of course, the shoulder rest and foot posture must be properly adjusted, so that the muscles can be strengthened without strain. My DD was enthusiastic about getting to watch TV for an entire violin practice, and the sustained work seems to have reduced the chin rest adjustment tic. Then it took a couple of weeks of focusing on keeping the left hand loose, and the thumb relaxed, but her left hand is much less tense now.

The other thing that helped us was an article in the September issue of Strings magazine. It concerned the cello teacher Aldo Parisot. He addressed the issue of practice in the article, and he said, "Too many students have the attitude that, 'I will be a better cellist six months from now.' Don't believe it. You'll be a better cellist tomorrow, not next year. Every day you must have improvement. And you will if you know what you're practicing for." So we have begun deciding on the one thing that will make DD a better violinist tomorrow. Sometimes it's a recurring issue--like the loose thumb on the left hand, or keeping feet in some semblance of play position--not twisting them up or balancing on one foot. Sometimes it's a technique issue--adding vibrato to every quarter note in the 3rd Seitz, for example. But have only one issue to focus on--work on that thing as many times as needed--and don't add other issues, or overload with more than one task for the working memory. I do really find that by focusing on one topic for only one or two lessons, it becomes more automatic, the whole piece sounds better, and we can go on to the next issue.

I hope some of this helps!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Morgan's mama* 
Oh, I should clarify; the lessons would be for my 5 1/2 year old dd. I'm wondering if Suzuki would be too much for me to keep up with b/c I also have 14 month old twins.

My youngest two are four-and-a-bit years apart and the elder of the two started at age 4.5. We practiced together through the infant / toddler months. I also had two older kids I was practicing with. I needed to carve out 15-20 minutes a day with my Suzuki beginner kid for practicing. That was in some ways a challenge, but in some ways it was a gift. It forced us to make the one-on-one time together. And that was really important anyway.

Mostly we practiced right after supper, when daddy was home to take the little one. Evening is not technically the ideal time to work with a 4yo on picky skill-oriented tasks, but it worked for us provided I took the time to set the right tone and get both of us in a comfy place emotionally.

Edited to add: That baby is now 6 1/2 and is completing Suzuki Violin Book 4. There's some pretty amazing music-learning magic that occurs in those little ones who are witness their older siblings' Suzuki practicing from the get-go.

Miranda


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## ecstaticmama24

Hey Mamas!

I'm glad to have found this thread. My daughter just started taking Suzuki piano lessons. I was in piano for many years, but it was Royal Conservatory. So far, Suzuki sounds really great, I'd love to find out more about it though.

I love music and I'm so excited that my girl is in piano, I hope she loves it too! I'm almost considering taking lessons again. Anyone take lessons with their little ones?


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## insahmniak

I received a reply from Interlochen -

Quote:

We determined 5 years ago that 8 weeks was too long for our applicant pool and we changed to 6 weeks for the core camp. It has been many years, perhaps since the late 1980's, that we have offered the 4 week junior program. Not many students chose to attend for 8 weeks.

Now we have a variety of programs to meet the needs to this generation who have many conflicts in the summer. A student in junior division can attend for as many 2 week sessions as they wish, for a total of 6 weeks.
Now I'm kind of curious as to what else is out there that compares to the Interlochen summer experience. I believe Aspen and Tanglewood are geared toward pro and semi-pro musicians. Unless you're a clear prodigy they don't admit children, and they are not at all a summer camp experience. In case anyone knows of anything else that compares to Interlochen I'd love to hear about it.

Juuulie -
I was a wee junior. Three of us from cabin 8 stuck together like glue and spent the summer laughing to tears. I remember pranking our lesser-loved cabin counselor. We were punished by having to sweep out tennis courts over "rest period." That punishment was decidedly more fun than it was intended to be.

Too bad the knickers are gone. Those were awesome. Now that I know the program has changed I've got to call my mom and thank her again. Not only did she practically sell a kidney to get me there, they don't even offer the extended experience anymore. I feel so fortunate to have attended in that era.


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## Juuulie

Stacymom, we are also mid-Book 4. Right now DD is doing very well and our practice sessions are pure joy... but it hasn't always been and I don't for a second believe it's permanent. I'm just enjoying it while I can! Here are a few things that have made a difference over the last few months:

We had an awesome master class with Alice Joy Lewis. We had a similar experience to Bird Girl's: huge emphasis on posture. Her teacher and I had been trying to work on her posture all last year, but when DD heard it from a new source it finally clicked, and she sounds, looks and FEELS a lot better when she plays.

I am making a huge effort to rein in my own perfectionist tendencies. I try not to bring up anything unless it was mentioned at her lesson (e.g. if the theme of the week is bowing I will not say anything about vibrato). Not easy, but it makes a big difference.

I finally got it through my thick skull that just because she is working on fairly sophisticated stuff doesn't mean she isn't still a kid. We started playing the penny game again and incorporating stuffed animals, etc., into our sessions. Even though she's going on 11 she still loves the games.

I think this is the biggest thing: often she has an audience. We started practicing in the living room, in front of windows that face out onto the street, instead of up in her room. People walking by can hear her, and she has noticed people looking in. She also has a friend who frequently comes over and sits quietly and listens while she practices. This has had an amazing effect on her motivation and willingness to tolerate polishing -- which she used to hate.


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## HotMama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ecstaticmama24* 
Hey Mamas! I love music and I'm so excited that my girl is in piano, I hope she loves it too! I'm almost considering taking lessons again. Anyone take lessons with their little ones?

I've been learning violin with dd...I'm getting ready to finish book 2, along with a bunch of other music thrown in from an ensemble class, and fiddle tunes. I love playing, but it is way tricky to find practice time for me! And, next year my 3 year old will begin (she's chomping at the bit now ; )


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## G-love

Hi everyone,
I have LOVED reading through all the posts here; they have really inspired me.
My 4 yo DD just started cello this summer, and we're already hitting a wall! Well, I am, maybe because I went through this same situation with my 8 yo DS on violin. Basically when we practice, I am always saying, "let me help you with that bowhold like the teacher said I should", or "I'll do the bowing and you do the fingers", or correcting her (too much for a 4 yo, I know!), or making her do things again if they're not right. She gets really mad and wants to do everything all by herself, hates having me suggest anything, etc. She would be happiest just sawing away on the C string... How do I gently get her technique to improve without ruining our relationship and without being a control freak? I really think my frustration with my son was NOT good for our relationship (or for his relationship with violin, but that's another story). I really can't take another 4 years of constant struggle!!!!! (I know it'll get better, but I can't see past this right now!)
TIA,
Genevieve


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## moominmamma

Genevieve, how about taking turns directing the practice? We play a game with coins. My dd chooses heads or tails. She also decides how many coins to use. Let's say she chooses 8 coins and heads. We lay the eight out on a shelf. I pick up the first one and flip it. If it's heads, she chooses what to do. She might say "I'm going to do a made-up song" and scrub away. Fine. When she's done, she bows and I applaud. Then we put that 'used' coin in a separate pile, get a new one and flip that one. If it's heads she gets to choose again. But if it's tails, I get to choose. "Five beautiful bow-holds!" or "play Twinkle rhythm C on the D-string three times with big tone" or something like that. And so on, flipping coins and making our respective choices until all eight coins are used up.

I find that because this makes the work to be done and the work already done tangible (we can look at the coins and see) my child feels much more in control and proud of her work. Because the random coin toss decides what type of work (mom-work or kid-work) gets done, she can feel annoyed at the coins, rather than at me. And because she is given full autonomy over specific parts of the practice session, to play the role of practice coach to herself, as time goes on she actually begins to make productive choices of her own. Finally, it's very helpful to both of us that there are particular parts of the practice session where I am not allowed to guide and correct and direct. I become more aware of how reflexively I correct and redirect -- and my child appreciates the little breaks from parental control.

Hope that helps!

Miranda


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## dancingmama

Wow, Miranda -- what a wonderful idea!!! Thank you so much for posting it. My 7 year old is doing great at the moment, but my extremely independent almost 4 year-old.... it's a struggle. I think the coin toss idea will help a ton. Thanks for sharing it!


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## Juuulie

That IS a great idea! I can hardly wait to try it with my 6yo. We have been using folded slips of paper -- each one has a particular task on it, such as "do one Up Like a Rocket," along with a couple of funny surprises like "hug Mom" or "do 5 pushups." He really likes these, especially when I rotate different surprises in and out, but we are already getting to the stage where he doesn't want me telling him what to do. I think he will love the coin toss!

I am also experimenting with asking HIM whether he managed to, say, maintain his bowhold all the way to the end of Up Like a Rocket, rather than me telling him whether or not he did. I praise him to high heaven if he is honest in his self-assessment, and I let the attempt "count" even if his bowhold wasn't great.


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## G-love

Thanks so much for the suggestion, Miranda! I also went back and printed out your parent checklist, which is amazing!
We started with a bow today, did 6 coins, and, you're totally right, I was able to let go for "her turns" and just let her do whatever, then I did get a turn to gently guide the bow for some rhythms, and sort of fix what I saw going on during her turns. It was SO much more positive than before! Maybe I'll try 8 coins with my son later tonight!!!!!
Genevieve


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## Bekka

Hi,
sorry I didn't respond to your post upthread. I haven't checked in over here for a while b/c I've been elsewhere, and also trying to cut down online time. Have things evened out a little bit with dd's practice?

Here are a few thoughts: when dd1 was 7 she was in mid book 2. She had some real issues about practice motivation, and any change took a LONG time to adjust to--violin size, school starting, etc. Like I needed to give it a month to get through.

Are you doing ALL of the practice at once? We haven't had good results with that forever and ever. If she can do say, 45 mins, then do that much in the morning. Do you teach all afternoon until bedtime? Is it possible to let her take charge of say, 15-30 min of practice? Often dd started rebelling a LOT when she needed another level of autonomy. I know that autonomy seems like the antithesis of Suzuki, but aren't we working toward that eventually?

DD needed "fun" even when we were working on book 2 and book 3 pieces, so we still did the funny games. One that worked well for us was a card game--we had K (dd), M(mom), and W (wild). We made about 5 cards of each to make a big deck. We made a big list of all the assignment items for the week, and then shuffle the deck. She would draw a card. If K was on there, then she would pick which thing off the list to play. If M was on there, I would pick which thing off the list to play. If W was on there, she could play ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING. Sometimes I had to leave the room as she screeched like a police car or whatever, sometimes she improvised, sometimes she fiddled some stuff.

We also experimented with a lot of different practice schedules. Sometimes I made up a trivia game, where I made up questions about each piece/assignment, including info about composers or whatever, or riddles to guess the title or whatever. She loves figuring things out, so this worked for us. She LOVED these.

Interestingly, it wasn't until I was about 10 1/2 that I took responsibility for my own music practice. This has been a fabulous year as far as dd taking responsibility (mostly) for her practice (she just turned 11). She disappears into the basement, and I sometimes hear and often don't and we get to the lesson and her teacher says, "do you have X prepared?" and she says YES! I have no idea. She needs reminders, and sometimes a little push to go get started, but that is normal for her personality.

(She did not make the final cut for the regional youth orchestra, and we are interested in why, but she considered the audition experience a "good experience for learning," and is trying to add sightreading to her practice to prepare.)

When things are going terrible, we scrap the assignments for the week and just review old stuff that is fun. Or play anything she wants by ear. Even just getting her to play if she's in a serious funk may keep things moving for a while until she can get back on track.


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## Bekka

Suggestions from anyone for what to do to practice sightreading? We have quite a bit of intermediate level flute music (mine), advanced clarinet music (dh), beginning organ music (mine), and med to adv piano music. Plus a bunch of beginning piano stuff and whatever stuff her teachers have assigned:

rhythm training
scale book
etudes (for sightreading and music reading practice)
assigned Suzuki pieces
tonalization
Study list for group class

What should we use for more sightreading practice, like 5x per week? Any ideas? Are there any books of good, fun violin music to get? Or for any C instrument.


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## megincl

Hi Folks,

DS (6yo) is in the midst of book 3 (cello), and I'm finding it quite a struggle to help him learn new songs. Generally, our teachers goes over tricky points in the lesson and then we are sent home to learn some/all of the piece. We're just starting Beethoven's Minuet in G. On the first half page, there are 13 shifts (oh the joy of cello!). I don't know how to do all the "instructing" to help DS get all of the notes, the shifts, the slurs, the bowings. I'm saying crazy things like "4th position first finger D string" and we're just plodding along note by note. And him having the tune in our head from listening even throws us off sometimes because he'll keep playing, but he'll have the wrong position, bowing, etc.

I'm going a bit crazy!!!!!! (clearly!). I'm feeling like note reading would be a huge help here. Thoughts? On any of this (not just the note reading)?

I think I'll call his teacher today, too.

Thanks!
megin


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## Bekka

Megin,
I'm surprised he hasn't started reading yet, tbh. In both programs that dd has been in, they started reading by early book 2. Although he's book 3 and only 6 yo, so does he read regular language yet?

Can you shorten the assignment to only 4 measures? Maybe do shorter assignments for a couple of weeks to have successful practices?


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## megincl

Thanks, Bekka. Yes, he's really just starting to read some easy books, and that's pretty recent, so it does seem okay that he has yet to learn to read music, but I do feel it has to come soon. I'm talking to his teacher on the phone tonight about it.

We've been working REALLY small chunks of pieces in our practice. That has worked okay, but it's hard to see/feel the whole piece when it's so broken down.

Luckily, this frustration with learning new pieces is paired with polishing up two others for a recital, and those are sounding quite good.

Still searching, though, for the right way to go about this....

megin


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## Bekka

I have to go but I just remembered that our teachers have the kids SING the parts that they aren't playing yet, and then play the notes they are playing, then sing some more. Our studio is very, very into singing first.


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## ebethmom

Hi Suzuki folks! I have a question. Do your programs have Book Recitals when students finish a book? Our program has a tradition of Book recitals. The students pick 4 or 5 pieces from their "finished" book, and they are featured on a recital.

I've changed the format to Solo/Book/Group recital to add more variety (and to increase the audience size!). The combo approach is going well. We just had a recital tonight, and it flowed nicely.

I think I'm going to tweak my policy on the requirements for the Book recital. The other teachers in the program have had their students play the recital as soon as they finish the book. I'm finding that my students are still nervous about basics (notes, bowings, just getting through the piece). I realized recently that this is just too much pressure. So I think my students will need to be at least two or three pieces into the next book before we attempt a Book recital.


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## Bekka

nakking
Our program has 2 solo and 3 group concerts per year. Also each kid has to "graduate" every song in the book again as she's preparing to finish a level, but it's all done in the lesson. Usuallt takes 5-6 lessons to graduate a book.


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## countryangels

What a GREAT thread! Thank you!









I was wondering







where do you buy the different Suzuki books,
like Violin 1 & so on?
Does each book come with a CD?
Is there a complete set that you can buy, books with CD'S all the way through book 10?
What is the approx. cost involved?
Thank you in advance!
By the way, Happy Thanksgiving to all!


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## RiverSky

I order my books from Sharmusic.com . You can order just the book or the book with CD (which I always do). They also have a fantastic program for purchasing slightly blemished violins, which you can then trade in for full value later on, when you need a larger violin. I know several who have used them and have loved the quality of the violins they have received.

I have also found Suzuki violin books in local music stores (the kind that carry violins!).


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
Hi Suzuki folks! I have a question. Do your programs have Book Recitals when students finish a book? Our program has a tradition of Book recitals. The students pick 4 or 5 pieces from their "finished" book, and they are featured on a recital.

I've changed the format to Solo/Book/Group recital to add more variety (and to increase the audience size!). The combo approach is going well. We just had a recital tonight, and it flowed nicely.

I think I'm going to tweak my policy on the requirements for the Book recital. The other teachers in the program have had their students play the recital as soon as they finish the book. I'm finding that my students are still nervous about basics (notes, bowings, just getting through the piece). I realized recently that this is just too much pressure. So I think my students will need to be at least two or three pieces into the next book before we attempt a Book recital.

our program has book recitals. the student has to play EVERY song in the book (liek book 1 includes all the twinkle variations, and every song - 17 I think?) the students are generally 2 or 3 pieces into the next book.


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## countryangels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
I order my books from Sharmusic.com . You can order just the book or the book with CD (which I always do). They also have a fantastic program for purchasing slightly blemished violins, which you can then trade in for full value later on, when you need a larger violin. I know several who have used them and have loved the quality of the violins they have received.

I have also found Suzuki violin books in local music stores (the kind that carry violins!).


Should I assume when they say VOLUME 1 its Book 1 & so on, right ?








It seems that they have Book Volume 1 & then something that seems to be Book & CD Volume 1, it has the word Preucil (sp??) in the title or something close to that spelling....
Thank you so much!!
Have a nice evening!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ebethmom* 
Hi Suzuki folks! I have a question. Do your programs have Book Recitals when students finish a book? Our program has a tradition of Book recitals. The students pick 4 or 5 pieces from their "finished" book, and they are featured on a recital.

<snip>

I think I'm going to tweak my policy on the requirements for the Book recital. The other teachers in the program have had their students play the recital as soon as they finish the book. I'm finding that my students are still nervous about basics (notes, bowings, just getting through the piece). I realized recently that this is just too much pressure. So I think my students will need to be at least two or three pieces into the next book before we attempt a Book recital.

We don't do book recitals. I am very leary of doing anything that can promote competition, or anything that puts the focus more on moving through the repertoire than on the development of fine musicianship. In our program here we encourage students to reach well back in their repertoire for all performances and we have occasionally had recitals where everyone has to choose a piece from the first half of their repertoire. So a student in early Book 7 would have to choose a Book 1, 2 or 3 piece. The quality of performances is stunning on those recitals! So anyway, as you can imagine, I am in definite agreement with you about delaying Book Recitals until students are well beyond completion of that book.

Do you know Dr. Suzuki's rule for graduations? You had to have reached the repertoire level of the *next* graduation in order to graduate from the earlier level. So a student wouldn't be eligible for their Gossec Gavotte graduation until they had learned Bach Bourrée. They couldn't do Bach Bourrée until they had learned the next level (which I think was the Vivaldi g minor, after that the Bach a minor, then one of the Mozart concertos ... ?? I don't remember his graduation pieces, but there weren't many).

If we considered doing Book Recitals here I think we would follow a similar model. While moving through the next book with new-piece learning, you revisit the pieces of the previous book, polishing them up to a new level of mastery. Only once you've finished Book 2 would you hold your Book 1 recital.

Miranda


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## Mary-Beth

When my dd began book 2 we had a "graduation party" and she played several pieces in book 1 for the residents of a local nursing home and some close friends and family attended as well. We went back to our house afterward for some cake. It was fun! She had a lovely time. I think it was a chance to celebrate all her efforts and hard work.


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## Juuulie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
We don't do book recitals. I am very leary of doing anything that can promote competition, or anything that puts the focus more on moving through the repertoire than on the development of fine musicianship.

Amen to that! We don't do book recitals either, and for the same reason. Plus, I don't think you can ever be truly "finished" with a book, and I wouldn't want to promote that idea. Seems like we are constantly going back to books 1 and 2 for one reason or another, e.g. using Gossec Gavotte to practice spiccato.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *countryangels* 
Should I assume when they say VOLUME 1 its Book 1 & so on, right ?








It seems that they have Book Volume 1 & then something that seems to be Book & CD Volume 1, it has the word Preucil (sp??) in the title or something close to that spelling....
Thank you so much!!
Have a nice evening!









Yes, Volume 1 is Book 1. The Preucil refers to the recording artist on the CD and that version is the one that goes with the newly revised edition -- definitely the one to get!

Miranda


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## vbactivist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
We don't do book recitals. I am very leary of doing anything that can promote competition, or anything that puts the focus more on moving through the repertoire than on the development of fine musicianship. In our program here we encourage students to reach well back in their repertoire for all performances and we have occasionally had recitals where everyone has to choose a piece from the first half of their repertoire. So a student in early Book 7 would have to choose a Book 1, 2 or 3 piece. The quality of performances is stunning on those recitals! So anyway, as you can imagine, I am in definite agreement with you about delaying Book Recitals until students are well beyond completion of that book.

Do you know Dr. Suzuki's rule for graduations? You had to have reached the repertoire level of the *next* graduation in order to graduate from the earlier level. So a student wouldn't be eligible for their Gossec Gavotte graduation until they had learned Bach Bourrée. They couldn't do Bach Bourrée until they had learned the next level (which I think was the Vivaldi g minor, after that the Bach a minor, then one of the Mozart concertos ... ?? I don't remember his graduation pieces, but there weren't many).

If we considered doing Book Recitals here I think we would follow a similar model. While moving through the next book with new-piece learning, you revisit the pieces of the previous book, polishing them up to a new level of mastery. Only once you've finished Book 2 would you hold your Book 1 recital.

Miranda

the book recitals in our program are not played with other students. It is more jsut a time to play through the entire book (show you can do it, etc). you can havbe people over to your house, or a lot of people do as a pp suggested and play at a nursing home.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
the book recitals in our program are not played with other students. It is more jsut a time to play through the entire book (show you can do it, etc). you can havbe people over to your house, or a lot of people do as a pp suggested and play at a nursing home.

No, I assumed we were discussing "unshared" recitals. I was just mentioning our program's approach to joint recitals to illustrate the emphasis we put on continued polishing and on the performance of review pieces rather than recently learned ones.

Miranda


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## ebethmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Do you know Dr. Suzuki's rule for graduations? You had to have reached the repertoire level of the *next* graduation in order to graduate from the earlier level. So a student wouldn't be eligible for their Gossec Gavotte graduation until they had learned Bach Bourrée. They couldn't do Bach Bourrée until they had learned the next level (which I think was the Vivaldi g minor, after that the Bach a minor, then one of the Mozart concertos ... ?? I don't remember his graduation pieces, but there weren't many).


I just saw that list . . . I think it was on a video presented during the SAA Virtual Leadership Retreat last May. I didn't watch closely enough to actually remember the list. The Ottawa (KS) Institute models their graduation list on Dr. Suzuki's original list, but I think they have changed it some. They do their graduation recital during their summer Institute.

When I first started teaching with this program, the ONLY recitals programmed were Book recitals and Group performances. I caught a lot of flack when I insisted that we schedule solo recitals that would be open to all students.







I've rearranged, so now we play combo recitals. I put solos, Book recitals and Group performances on the same program.

I've just started the check list idea with the students who are approaching the end of a book. So far it's working well. These two Book 1 students both have some pressing technical issues, so I'm glad to have more built-in review time.

Thinking of the Ottawas Institute and review work . . . Brian Lewis performed Chorus from "Judas Maccabaeus" on his recital last summer. It was gorgeous!


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## G-love

Hi everyone,
I got some great ideas for my now-5 year old cellist, so I thought I'd run my 8 yo son's situation by you guys. He's been playing violin for 4 years, is nearing the end of book 2, and really, really doesn't like the violin. Doesn't like practicing, doesn't like going to rep class (2 Saturdays a month) (though I think he enjoys Being there playing with the kids, just not the trip, not sitting through the 1/2 hour recital every time, between rep class and orchestra), doesn't really have any ambition, either about playing beautifully or about progressing to bk 3.
This is getting me down. At times I'm tempted to quit, but I really see music as a lifetime gift (if we could get him to accept it!), and he's put so much into getting so far. And to worsen things (for me,this is really my issue, and it doesn't seem to bother him), his good friend at school, who started afterschool lessons at age 6 (not Suzuki method, but using Suzuki books) has finnished bk 2 and is starting bk 3. Now, he doesn't know his pieces by heart and he doesn't hold his violin and bow like my son's teacher MAKES him, but still, he isn't half bad. AND he practices on his own, his parents just leave the violin out (no toddlers there!), and he plays, goofs around, experiments with fiddling music... How is Suzuki better than this?
Words of encouragement? My son is into Christmas carols, and we are having my 5 yo pluck the d or a string to "accompany" him, which he's into. But in terms of "getting the bowings on Gavotte by Lully", whether for the sake of it or (I admit I am motivated by this) to GET TO BK 3 and make some kind of progress, he is NOT motivated. I know I need to shift the way I'm looking at this, so fire away!!!!
Thanks!


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## Mama Shifra

G-love,

There may be a few issues here. One is that your child may have hit a *plateau* and is bored. If that's the case, then you may just need to wait it out but with a few conditions. You need to find a way to make violin exciting again. If you play an instrument, be it ever so humble (even at the beginner level), then find songs that you can duet with him. *Those carols that he is playing will do wonders for his interest in music, so if that is what he wants to concentrate on at this time of year then let him go for it, even if his other repartoire is neglected!* And if you can play an instrument, try to play along with him. If you don't play an instrument, sing the carols as he plays them. Also, how about having him give a concert at home (or a nursing home as others in this forum have suggested). If you don't mind, maybe you could make it a sing-along. This would make your son feel as if he is contributing to yours or others happiness in a very real way--live music is infinitely better than recorded music, even with mistakes.

The next issue that I can think of is that maybe he's *outgrown* his teacher. Observe his classes (I'm sure you do!) and try to see if he is clashing, even slightly, with his teacher. Is it just that the demands have gotten greater? Or does he need a new teacher? Maybe the teacher is so focused on minute skills that he/she won't let your child move on to another song and he is getting bored. Maybe your son needs a more traditional teacher (dare I say that on a Suzuki forum?). You may want to interview other teachers in your area and observe lessons and/or recitals to see how they teach and if it would be a better fit for your son. Now that it is recital season or coming up soon, you may be able to do this now. You talk about your son's friend who does violin afterschool--maybe that teacher would be a better fit for your son too. If nothing else, he would have the social aspect of doing something with his friend. And because he has been doing violin for years, he would probably fit into the class well enough, even though he's entering the class late in the semester.

The last issue that I can think of is that maybe your son needs *another instrument*. Violin is one of the hardest orchestral instruments to play. Some people are better suited to one instrument over others. *What instrument does he want to play?* He may have a preference already. If he's in a school that has a music program, he may have been exposed to some instruments already, but if not, then take him to children's concerts so that he can be exposed to other instruments.

It could be also that he just needs a break from all school, including Suzuki. The holidays are coming up and with them a school break. While I would not allow him to go the whole time without playing his violin at all, I would definately let him take it easy. He probably needs a break. I am sure that if you get him to play carols once a day for friends and family, that will keep him in the swing enough when he gets back to the grind.

Good luck with your decision!
Shifra


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## G-love

Hi Shifra,
Thanks for your ideas. I have toyed with the idea of switching teachers--so far my only idea was to switch to another Suzuki teacher at the school (the young friendly one, vs. the strict one we have now--well the young one is strict too but so much happier and more fun). I am intrigued by the idea of leaving Suzuki altogether--though my daughter would stay with her amazing cello teacher, so that could be uncomfortable, to say the least!

He is really interested in drums, and I am letting him take after school drum lessons at his school. No practice required, I have no clue what/ if he's learning, but he LOVES it. Maybe that is enough, and I should just let violin go, but it's hard to when we've put SO MUCH into it, and if we quit, the benefits will be so intangible (the main one being learning that you can master anything if you break it down into small enough parts and take it one bit at a time) (also the value of creating something beautiful) (maybe I'm not ready to leave Suzuki!!)

My cello is at a relative's house in New Hampshire, but I love your idea of getting it here and accompanying him--esp since he's SO much better than I will be! That could be a ball!

And maybe he and his buddy could do an Xmas concert at a nursing home together---that's a SUPER idea!

Thanks again for all the ideas! Keep them coming, if anyone else out there has some!
G.


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## Bekka

More autonomy in his practicing? Sometimes with dd (11 yao) I needed to back noff and she could direct part of the prACtice.
o and flute so I accompany/duet C\ould you rent a cello for yourself short term? I play the pin thse. HAVE NO IEA IF You
CAN u
NDe
rsan
Ta
d these words;
I'll try
\ later.

\
\\\\\\\\

My baby is he--ing me type P h


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## mrsfussypants

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
More autonomy in his practicing? Sometimes with dd (11 yao) I needed to back noff and she could direct part of the prACtice.
o and flute so I accompany/duet C\ould you rent a cello for yourself short term? I play the pin thse. HAVE NO IEA IF You
CAN u
NDe
rsan
Ta
d these words;
I'll try
\ later.

\
\\\\\\\\

My baby is he--ing me type P h


This post is priceless.


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## Qbear'smama

Can I just say, I love this thread!! So much good advice and info for those just starting our Suzuki journeys. DD will be 4 in April and plays cello. She had her first recital yesterday! She plucked "ants" it was very cute and she had a total "deer in the headlights" look on her face but she got through it. She is by far the youngest cellist in the school and I agree that getting through the fundamentals takes longer with a younger child (her bowhold is the big challenge), but she is capable. Moominmamma, I have printed your practicing checklist, so valuable for me. Thank you!!!


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## countryangels

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Yes, Volume 1 is Book 1. The Preucil refers to the recording artist on the CD and that version is the one that goes with the newly revised edition -- definitely the one to get!

Miranda


Hi Miranda,

Thanks for your help!








I'm still trying to figure things out, LOL!


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## countryangels

Hi Suzuki Mommas!

First of all, I really love this thread!









I was wondering the following, I know of a family, they are planning on maybe attenting 2 or 3 Suzuki camps this summer or in 2011.

Would you all think that might be a bit too much, a bit over kill ?
I don't know what to say to them ???
So, I thought I would ask the experts, teachers, etc?
Would small children, ages 7-11 be OK with this?

What say you?









I think in 1 camp they will have piano & violin, in another they will just have violin & I'm not sure what is going on in camp # 3 ?

Has anyone ever done this, gone to several Suzuki camps during one summer?

Thanks!


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## Juuulie

I will be taking my 10yo daughter to two separate institutes this summer, one in June and one in August. We've never done this before but we are both looking forward to it. The one in June is only for a few days, relatively inexpensive, and not as high-powered as the one in August. We are thinking of it as an opportunity for some special mother-daughter time as much as a musical experience. The one in August is commuter only, plus her brother will probably go to that one too, so it won't feel as special to her. Btw, her teacher is very much in favor of her going to both. The more the better, he says.


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## moominmamma

That sounds fairly intense, but depending on the family they may thrive. Last summer my 12yo and 15yo did three music institute weeks back to back, and my 6yo and 10yo's did two. One was a Suzuki week, the others were more traditional with a somewhat different emphasis (more chamber music, choral and orchestral stuff than individual, and for two kids one of the weeks was on their "other" instrument). But still a lot of lessons and classes and teachers and new kids to get to know and tons of ensemble music to master.

We do this every year. We live in a village of 600, 8 hours drive from the nearest city with a symphony orchestra, so this is our one chance to give the kids exposure to youth orchestras, advanced chamber music, workshop teachers and a peer group of other kids similarly committed to music. It's the highlight of my kids' year. They pine for it all through the fall, the winter, the spring. Scarcely a week goes by that one of my kids hasn't told me about some jubilant dream they had the night before about the Suzuki institute. Ideally I'd like to see the weeks separated rather than back to back, but this is how things are scheduled and while it is tiring it's also incredibly inspiring and there's no way they would give a moment of it a miss.

Miranda


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## jgale

Hi everyone. I've been reading through this thread with interest--and glad to see it getting so long.

I have a 6 year old boy who takes non-Suzuki piano and a 3.5 year old girl who just started Suzuki flute this past January. She loves it, although I find setting up the practice sessions to be challenging--I think the info I've read on this thread will be helpful. My 6 year old also started flute with the same teacher when he was 3, but we stopped after about a year, mostly because none of us were putting in the practice time to make it worthwhile.

There is a Suzuki piano institute opening soon near us (aren't we lucky--we walk to all our lessons!). I have thought a bit about switching him there, but he likes his current teacher so I think we'll stick where we are for now.

Anway, just wanted to say hi, and thanks for all the great insights in this thread.

Jessi


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## jgale

Oh no, I hope I didn't kill the thread!


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## greenmamapagan

Nope didn't kill it. I usually lurk but I thought I'd jump out to reassure you. My DD is just starting violin. She had one lesson a little over a year ago but then we moved and there are no Suzuki teachers here and she got ballet obsessed anyway. But now we've found a mama who doesn't teach atm but used to be Suzuki registered so DD and her DS play violin games together once a week








I'm considering going to an info session for non-Suzuki teachers at a Suzuki institute in April. Probably wont go though, first it's interstate (there's no flute program at the institute in my state) and it 9 - 4 so unless DS can be with me it's not really possible atm.


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## filteragainstfolly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *countryangels* 

I was wondering the following, I know of a family, they are planning on maybe attenting 2 or 3 Suzuki camps this summer or in 2011.

Would you all think that might be a bit too much, a bit over kill ?
I don't know what to say to them ???
So, I thought I would ask the experts, teachers, etc?
Would small children, ages 7-11 be OK with this?


I think it strongly depends on the kids and the family, and whether all the kids are on board with it. It could result in a stressful or excruciating summer for a child who isn't personally keen on attending.

That said, I know several families who do multiple camps in the summer, including our own. Often families will choose camps that "complement" each other, where one camp offers something not available in the other camp, to round out the musical experience.

Last year we did 4 weeks of camps (two 2-week institutes back-to-back). Both camps were vastly different and provided great constrasting experiences. Our 10yo DS loved it. He's been going to institutes since he was 6yo and they're the highlight of his summers -- he'd pick music camp over Disney World in a second!

But it's something that evolved naturally over time: A one-week camp when he was six, another one-week camp when he was seven, two weeks when he was eight, three weeks when he was nine, and four weeks at age ten. I don't think we'll move past four-weeks anytime soon, not because he wouldn't want to but because we parents have our limit!









And I imagine our summers might look very different if we had other kids, particularly if one or more weren't into music the way DS is.


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## jgale

I was wondering if you experienced Suzuki moms might have any suggestions for managing the practice sessions of multiple kids.

I work full time, so our practice basically has to happen in the afternoon/evening (except on weekends), and usually after the baby has gone to bed.

Currently, with only one in a Suzuki program, the 6 year old (non-Suzuki) really wants to help with his sister's practice--I guess because it seems more fun than just sitting and playing your songs over and over, which is kind of what he's supposed to do. Anyway, I try to work with one kid at a time, but it doesn't always work out that way. I'm wondering how other folks set up their practice times when you have more than one kid and not a ton of time on your hands. Is it okay for them to work together, as long as they're being productive?

thanks, jessi


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## LambQueen

I'm just hopping on...

DD plays flute - though not really suzuki method. She has learned to sight read and generally practices, but my trouble is trying to get her to complete her school work also...


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## greenmamapagan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jgale* 
Currently, with only one in a Suzuki program, the 6 year old (non-Suzuki) really wants to help with his sister's practice--I guess because it seems more fun than just sitting and playing your songs over and over, which is kind of what he's supposed to do.

No-one else has addressed this yet. Speaking as a non-Suzuki instrumental teacher rather than a Suzuki parent I have to wonder if that is really what he is meant to be doing or if there is a miscommunication. Do you go to his lessons with him? Does the teacher write in a notebook or write notes on his music? If you don't go to his lessons with him can you record the so you can listen to them later and find out more precisely what he is meant to practice?
As for working with her, I'm sure it wont do him any harm. Maybe make _her_ teacher aware of the situation and see what they think with regards to how it might affect her.


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## ebethmom

Hi everyone! We're in the middle of a 100 Days of Practice challenge. My five year old dd LOVES this challenge! I was having a heck of time getting her to practice at all, and now she's playing her violin every day.

My ds, in typical fashion, has rejected the 100 Day challenge. He's going for 1000+ days. When he makes it to his three year mark, we'll go shopping for whichever hand held electronic gadget is hot on the market.


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## greencat

Does anyone know what website will I find the new Book 4 with CD, or if the new one (with CD) is out for sale?? Thanks!


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## greencat

We had "Graduation" when kids completed Book 1 or Twinkles. If you did, or planning to celebarte the milestones, how are you going to do so? I need some ideas. Thanks, Geencat


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
Does anyone know what website will I find the new Book 4 with CD, or if the new one (with CD) is out for sale?? Thanks!

Most string supply places which deal with Suzuki materials carry this. We bought ours several months ago and it is already well-worn. Try www.ymonline.com or www.sharmusic.com .

Miranda


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## jspring0308

I'm a new suzuki violin parent and so far through book 1 we've all had a great experience. Well we hit a major brick wall with Etude. My daughter just can't/won't get through the "middle". She refuses to try, refuses to believe that the teachers' discussion on the SSA forum is correct! Her last 2 lessons have been fine but as soon as she gets home she's stuck in the middle again. I'm at a loss as to how to help her with this situation. Any suggestions?


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## greencat

Moominmamma: Thanks! I'll look there.

I think we are all familiar with the Etude Loop. I would just go back to listening to the CD, and count with her. Then, I would count with her when she is practing.


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## greencat

Does anyone have a child/ren or teach children with Synesthesia?

Thanks!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greencat* 
Does anyone know what website will I find the new Book 4 with CD, or if the new one (with CD) is out for sale?? Thanks!

That reminds me to ask. Have any of the teachers here had experience teaching the Bohm Perpetual Motion "in sequence" in Book 4? I have only done so with one young child yet, my youngest daughter, and gosh, it feels like yet another "hump" piece stuck into the notorious Book 4 onslaught of complex challenging repertoire. I mean, it's shorter than the others, but getting it up to tempo is a huge technical challenge.

Also, do you teach it with sautillé? I would with an older child but on a 1/10th or 1/8th sized bow all we were really able to achieve was the biomechanics which would produce sautillé on a larger bow. Even I can't really get a true sautillé with a bow that size.

I will say this, though: the Vivaldi g minor is coming very easily after that even-huger-than-normal Book 4.

Miranda


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jspring0308* 
I'm a new suzuki violin parent and so far through book 1 we've all had a great experience. Well we hit a major brick wall with Etude. My daughter just can't/won't get through the "middle".

By "middle" are you referring to the scale-wise passages after the B-G-B-D? If so, I usually teach this first, as a variation on the G-major scale that I teach a few weeks before beginning work on Etude proper.

I also us a variety of mnemonics with Etude.

The Etude Train is useful to break it up into manageable chunks. I actually draw it out for kids on different pieces of coloured paper. The train is made up two engines, two boxcars and a caboose. The first engine is the first 4 bars up to the B on beat 3 of the 4th bar, and it's "coupling" is the three notes that lead into bar 5. The second engine is the next four bars, identical to the first, with the "coupling" being "G-B-D". The first boxcar is the 2nd-finger boxcar: it starts on high G (second finger) and ends on F# (second on D) and then has a coupling of "D-F#-A" (a hopping 2nd finger). The next boxcar is the 3rd-finger boxcar: it starts on high A (third finger) and ends on G (3 on D) and then has a coupling of "D-G-A" (a hopping 3rd finger). The caboose starts out like the engine but ends with the long scale down to G.

Taking the two boxcars out and practicing them until they are drop-dead easy might be helpful if that's where her resistance lies. If her difficulty is in what leads into them, then she could practice the engines, stopping on the B, thinking about which "coupling" to use, and then going on once she's chosen correctly.

I don't use words very often in teaching repertoire, but Etude is one of the times they can occasionally be useful. I'm particularly fond of these, as they elucidate the form of the piece pretty well (lines of text split at bar-lines):

One, pick up to two, pick up to three and down the scale, pick up to
One, pick up to two, pick up to three and down the scale, pick up to
One, pick up to two, pick up to three and down the sclae, pick up to
One, pick up to two, pick up to three and down the scale, ar - peg- gi-
O! and down the scale to end on 2, ar - peg- gi-
O! and down the scale to end on 3, pick up to
One, pick up to two, pick up to three and down the longer scale to end on open G.

Hope that helps!

Miranda


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## Stacymom

Wow, I haven't been around here forever!

Miranda, I'm right in the middle of the Perpetual Motion with my daughter who's eight, and two of my students who are 11 and 13 have just started it.

My daughter is learning it pretty quickly. We spent a week or two doing preview spots, then by the end of the third week we had it memorized. She's playing it for a recital in a few weeks, but we're also going to be starting the Bach Double next week. (Yay!) I dunno, I think all kids have their "bang heads against the wall" pieces, but this one has come fairly easily for her, and she was really excited to learn it, which probably helped.

Our teacher wants our finished tempo to be between 120-130 for the quarter note, and she said the Suzuki recording is around 160. Abby is playing on a 1/4 size, and we're probably not shooting for sautille bowing. We worked at her lesson yesterday at keeping her bow hand relaxed, and bouncing her knees as she played to try and get somewhat of an off-the-string effect, but I don't think that kids this young have the ability for a true sautille. I think it might be one of those pieces we come back to later on when we're working on that technique, and her teacher agrees.

Now, my two students who are learning it are transfer students and are not particularly good practicers, nor do they have a completely solid technical foundation. (I took them both as Book 4 students on second Seitz a year and some ago- that shows you how fast they are moving!) We'll see how fast they decide to progress through this. While I don't think the Perpetual Motion introduces anything hugely new technically (unless you decide to go for the advanced bowings, which I certainly won't with these students!) I think the main objective I would have for these students is playing fluently without major errors at 120-130. It may take until Christmas, unfortunately. I am really learning with my transfer students how important the early foundation is.


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## moominmamma

Thanks Stacymom. That's basically what we've done -- worked on sautillé-type springiness without getting an actual sautillé, got the fluidity at a moderately fast tempo, and left the advanced technique for later. Fiona will probably be on a 1/2-size around age 10-11, so we'll come back to it then.

Miranda


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## snanna

I love that this thread is here! I read through the whole thing eagerly. I feel like Suzuki has been such a well of learning for both dd (5.5) and I-- music, yes, but also about our relationship, learning-to-learn, managing frustration, and on and on.

She started at 3.5, another one who begged and played violin with coat hangers for a year until we asked grandma to pay for lessons. I've loved how the Suzuki approach leaves her internal motivation intact, and respects her pacing. Practicing has been really enjoyable for the most part, and any resistance she has is mostly to the scheduling factor (have to stop what you're doing and practice now because there won't be another time to do it today, etc.). She plays a lot just for fun, or as part of a larger game, and really sees making music as just another thing we do as part of life.

Lately though, a dynamic that has come up in our practicing is starting to seem permanent despite my efforts to think it through, and I don't like it. It crops up most often when she's learning a new song, and I think feeling pressured to "get it right" while I am listening. She'll get stuck somewhere, but hates any reminders of fingering, notes, singing along, or suggestions to listen to the song to "refresh it in her mind", and feels really angry when I offer any of these things. I try just waiting for her to ask for help, or asking if she needs any, but it seems to feed the cycle also. Lots of tears and yelling. She'll sometimes get so frustrated I take her violin away because of how roughly she's moving it.

I think it's kind of a habit or performance at this point, more than real frustration-- she's a kid who regularly sounds out and plays whatever strikes her fancy, and often has the new song all but memorized by the time it's introduced in lesson (love that magical Suzuki listening effect). She's learning Allegretto right now.

It's occurring to me that I should start putting her new song on repeat more often when we do our listening-- I doubt she'd object.

Any other thoughts on how to shake up the learning-the-correct-notes phase of practice and approach it from a novel perspective? For the first time I am beginning to see why some teaching methods wait to start until kids can learn to read music....

Thanks, Suzuki mamas, in advance!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snanna* 
It crops up most often when she's learning a new song, and I think feeling pressured to "get it right" while I am listening. She'll get stuck somewhere, but hates any reminders .... Lots of tears and yelling. She'll sometimes get so frustrated I take her violin away because of how roughly she's moving it.

She sounds like she's got some perfectionism going on. The best way I've found to help my perfectionists is to get in and do some prep-work with them before they start their brow-furrowing intense pursuit of their own high standards.

So in the situation you describe, I would remind her how this "new piece" was really frustrating for her yesterday, and so as her parent it's your job to come up with new ideas for doing the work which are better for her... and you have two ideas.

First, you want to help her take bite-sized pieces, rather than trying to choke back the whole meal. (Point out that ice cream cones are really yummy, unless you try to cram the whole thing in your mouth at once, in which case they might make you want to choke and puke. Same thing with Allegretto -- it's delicious to learn in small bites, but trying to cram the whole thing in at once will make you feel terrible.) Have a plan for appropriate bite-sized pieces -- one phrase, or one bar, or even just three notes at a time. Bite, chew, enjoy, swallow, then take the next bite. Make the bites small enough that you can give her the help she needs to be successful with them before she tries them. That way she won't get stuck and then need (but resist) help, and perceive the help as evidence of her personal inadequacy. I find this is one of the big tricks to dealing with perfectionists: give them suggestions before the fact, rather than after it. Save corrections from today's work and give them as "clues" before tomorrow's work and they won't be emotionally toxic.

[The pieces are going to get a lot longer and more complicated over the next book of repertoire and it is crucial that kids get comfortable with chunking things down. Those early pieces can mostly be learned by starting at the beginning and feeling one's way through, but that strategy is not going to be sufficient for long. Much though it pains some of them, kids need to learn how to treat the different parts of their new repertoire as building blocks to be individually mastered and then assembled. She may hear you better if you frame it as "now that you're getting to big pieces, you need to learn how to take bites of them." Don't talk about them getting "hard" and "complicated," which can be intimidating.]

Second, you want her to just promise herself "good tries," not "learning this part." I usually ask for a number of good tries that equals the child's age in years. That makes today's stated aim "getting five good tries closer to learning it" and removes the expectation of mastery from today's practice session. Depending on the child's likely volatility I might insert "and I get to blow raspberries on your tummy in between every try." If the little bite isn't mastered after five good tries, just cheerfully shrug and remind her that tomorrow it'll be that much easier, because of all the good work she's done today. If she wants to keep going, you need to make a bit of a judgment call. If she wants to keep going because she's enjoying the challenge and the hard work, then I would agree to do a few more tries, but later in the practice session after doing a few other different [easy, enjoyable, large-motor] tasks. If she wants to keep going because she can't abide the thought of not mastering it today, then I would not support that. Perfectionists need to learn how to set aside obsessiveness like that and settle for good tries -- and violin is a perfect place to practice that.

As a parent to two kids who were pretty intense perfectionists I also think it's important to set boundaries as soon as things begin to escalate. I can remember times when I said "This isn't working right now. I'd like you to do something else, or else work on it like I suggested. I've explained my plan: you need to play just that four-note bit and then stop. If you insist on just running through from the beginning of the section, then I'm done. We can practice properly together another time." I think the sort of dynamic you describe can easily become habitual, especially if practice sessions are ending in tears and frustration, because that negative emotional memory will affect the next day's session, making meltdowns more likely. And so on. Vicious cycle.

If you can manage to end practice sessions while they're smiling and happy for two weeks straight -- even if this means they're very short indeed on both time and substance -- I can almost guarantee that you'll break the cycle of negativity. And then you'll more than make up for whatever productivity might have been lost during the two weeks.

Good luck!

Miranda

(Suzuki teacher, and mom to Erin-16, Suzuki violin 'grad' 2007, Noah-13, Suzuki viola Book 8, Sophie-11, Suzuki violin Book 7, and Fiona-7, Suzuki violin Book 5)


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## snanna

Thank you so much for this EXTREMELY helpful reply, Miranda. We've had two positive, fun, SHORT, laughing practice sessions now (including the raspberries on the belly, administered by both me and 2-yr-old ds), and I do feel like if we keep it up for a while we'll be in an entirely new place, practice-wise. I don't think dd is a dyed-in-the-wool perfectionist at this point, but I would describe her as stubborn, if it weren't so pejorative. She has an idea of how things should go, and sometimes she'll just. keep. going. with something even when she lacks the skills to get there. I myself am a reformed perfectionist, and I benefit from "scripts" that let me let go more-- "good tries" that "make it easier next time"... love it.

I made notes about "clues" to offer the next day, which went really well, and the new vocabulary of "taking a bite" of a "big piece" (not that Allegretto is big- but it feels like it because it's such a challenge to get the D and G sounding good) was way more meaningful than talking about "slowing down" and "trying again", which was where I was at before.

It's interesting that the first day we had a truly happy practice, including a short stab at "just the middle bite" of Allegro that resulted in dd getting it effortlessly right, dd followed said happy practice with a tantrum of epic proportions. Way past what we usually see from her now that she's five. The good energy of the practice kept me going, though, and I watched her rage about nothing (you know, about having a thread coming off her shirt, about her voice sounding "funny", etc.) for a good while-- then suddenly she was done, and we had a lovely day. It felt as though she was kind of recalibrating, checking to see if I would engage with her huge negative emotions without the excuse of frustration during practice. Maybe?

I think dd's teacher is a little surprised that dd loves review so much, and can be resistant to moving forward even when she's clearly capable of, and even excited about, learning something new. At lesson she greets new ideas/tasks/songs with open arms, but at home she cries. Meanwhile, she's teaching herself all kinds of stuff, on the violin and off. Violin is the one skill she's actually being taught, unlike our unschooling approach to pretty much everything else, and it's such an interesting nexus. She's a leap-then-rest kind of learner, I'm realizing, and it can be nerve wracking to the observer!

I described the problems we've been having with new pieces to dd's teacher, and she seemed to think it was time to start introducing note-reading, something dd is interested in in only the MOST play-based way-- scribbling pretend musical notation and "playing" it. Looking intently at my sheet music and "playing" it. Not sure music-reading is the answer to our current situation, really, but maybe it's just time?

Thanks, Miranda, for helping me think this through. She's my first, and I want to help her avoid going down the path of the self-loathing perfectionism that kept me distracted for so many years. It's encouraging that your children do not seem to be held back by their perfectionist tendencies, and that you have developed such good strategies for how to keep yourself from reinforcing it!


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## Bekka

DD's (11, finishing up Book 4, playing the primo part of Bach Double for studio balance), violin teachers are very conservative (slow) to move the students up to the next violin size; we are fine with that. Her orchestra teacher at school has made noise about her getting the next bigger violin sound, "because he needs more tone," and "think about the bigger violin." She has a very nice violin, a Doetsch, 1/2 size, which has a big beautiful tone for its size. She is a very petite 6th grader; she has short arms, and she has conservative teachers.

I feel like her (5+ years) private teachers definitely win in this regard, even if she *doesn't* play with a bigger tone (which she totally can); the violin should be in proportion according to what her teacher thinks, not what the orchestra teacher thinks he "needs."

Feedback?


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## Juuulie

My daughter is also 11, average height, and just finishing up book 4 -- and she also plays on a half-size. I know there are kids the same size as her who play on bigger violins but our teacher believes that it's better to sacrifice some tone than develop bad habits or an injury from playing an instrument that doesn't fit. I totally trust our teacher and would never question his judgment on this. I'm surprised an orchestra teacher would have that attitude.


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## greenmamapagan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
I feel like her (5+ years) private teachers definitely win in this regard, even if she *doesn't* play with a bigger tone (which she totally can); the violin should be in proportion according to what her teacher thinks, not what the orchestra teacher thinks he "needs."

Feedback?

Of course they(/you/her) do. Is it a school orchestra or a youth orchestra? I assumed school because you wrote teacher rather than conductor. If it's an audition entry youth orchestra you may just need to be prepared that if they are focused on building the sound of the orchestra she may not make the cut next time. Otherwise, he needs to work with what he's got and what instrument she plays is not his business.


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## moominmamma

Bekka, I also have an 11-year-old on a half-size. She's short for her age, though she has long arms and fingers. In orchestra it's not a big deal, since there are other players in her section who can help balance out the sound. But this summer she'll be first violinist in a quartet playing Beethoven, made up of full-sized players, as well as the only violinist on a fractional instrument in a group of a dozen players doing Brandenburg No. 3 and parts of the Copland Nonet. Her half is a lovely antique French instrument with a sweet, balanced sound, but it doesn't have an assertive type of tone and I think she'll have to work very hard to project the amount of sound she'll need to balance the other players. The temptation to move her up to the robust-sounding German 3/4 that is in waiting for her is strong.

Her teacher is also conservative about moving kids up. My dd has the arm length to handle the 3/4, but it still "looks big on her" because her general body habitus is so petite. So far her teacher's decision has been to wait at least until fall, but I'm wanting to push for the earlier move, given the chamber music challenges of the summer. Her teacher is her grandma (my mom) -- which creates an interesting dynamic if we disagree over things. We'll see.









One-on-a-part chamber music demands more equal balance from each instrument than orchestral playing, though. In your situation, especially without the long arms and fingers, I would hold fast on the half-size for a while longer. Definitely the private lesson teachers' views should hold sway. She should feel flattered that the orchestra director recognizes that she's a strong player and wants to hear more of her, but I would stick with what the teachers say.

Miranda


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## Bekka

Using my "quick quotes quill", I will respond.

First of all, thanks for all the feedback. She is definitely still the right size for 1/2 size still. She isn't doing chamber stuff yet, and is auditioning in 3 weeks for the regional strings ensemble. I'm talking about her school orchestra teacher in an infant program which she likes but plays better than the 8th graders.

I told her if he mentions it again that she will be following her private teachers' guidelines, to avoid injury. Oh, and she's getting new strings and hair next week, which should help as well (that would be my errand...). There are students in the regional orchestra playing on 1/8s, 1/4s, and 1/2s as well as larger, so I'm really not concerned about that; just her own best tone for instrument.


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## greenmamapagan

So DD had a joint lesson this morning at our house with the teacher's son. She brings her toddler too (of course) so there were two adults and four littlies in our tiny loungeroom and in the ensuing craziness while tuning DD's violin DS grabbed her bow by the hair with raspberry jam all over his hands







It doesn't, umm work anymore








Is it possible to clean it? She suggested wiping with methylated spirits but that sounds a bit harsh to me. DH thought shampoo (since it is hair after all) and in either case enormous amounts of rosin afterwards. What do you think?


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## moominmamma

I've used denatured alcohol before for removing grime and grease with reasonable results. I would definitely use that rather than shampoo, since the latter is a potpourri of synthetic detergents, colorants, scents etc.. Any crud on the bow quickly gets mixed in with the rosin itself, so you really need something that can dissolve the rosin. Rosin is a highly hydrophobic compound made up largely of terpenes. It would require lots of very harsh detergents, or else an organic solvent, to dissolve. I think a pure organic solvent is the way to go. Just be very careful to keep it off the stick because it'll dissolve the finish. Unscrew the bowhair from the stick and cover the stick, then set to work with paper towels, solvent and a comb.

After removing all the rosin and grime, you'll need to reapply the rosin of course. I find that bows cleaned this way function pretty well, but the hair never seems to hold onto the rosin quite as well as it did before.

For the little bit of grime that accumulates right near the frog due to the thumb, a useful trick is to clean the hair by rubbing it with a sugar cube. It's the right size, dry, slightly abrasive, and tends to absorbs the hand grease. The cosmetic improvement is better than the functional improvement, but it does improve grip on the strings somewhat.

Miranda


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## greenmamapagan

Thanks Miranda


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## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
For the little bit of grime that accumulates right near the frog due to the thumb, a useful trick is to clean the hair by rubbing it with a sugar cube. It's the right size, dry, slightly abrasive, and tends to absorbs the hand grease. The cosmetic improvement is better than the functional improvement,

This sounds really useful at our house, as dd tends to have the rigorous skin oil that dh has and gets dirty right at the frog very quickly after a rehair. The bigger problem will be to actually find sugar cubes; I'll be looking in all the supermarkets I frequent, for the next while, I guess.


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## Bekka

Actually, I really dropped in to share my idea and get feedback. We will be camping in a dry climate (Denver) for almost a week this summer, and I decided that I was NOT going to try to take dd's "nice" violin (Doetsch) for that period. We have a separate "student model" half-size violin and super light-weight case. The cheap wood bow that goes with it is toast.

So here's my idea--set up the cheap violin with inexpensive strings (red label?) and buy a Glasser bow at Sharmusic. Then we have a violin and bow that will play OK, and the bow won't warp in the dry climate, and bring our green worm (what's that called?) to help hydrate.

Feedback? We will need to leave the violin in the tent or the trunk of the car. Which is worse?


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## Bekka

Anyone going to the SAGWA Suzuki Institute tomorrow? DD is starting. Very excited. I won't really be too involved (missing all the lectures) because of my other children.


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## PiePie

Please PM me if you know of any instructors willing to work with 3 yos in Manhattan.


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## ebethmom

Bekka - how did your special camping gear work out? I did something similar on a long road trip. I had an audition coming up a few weeks after our trip, and I knew that I needed to practice absolutely every day leading up to that. There was no way to hike and sight-see *and* protect my professional instrument. So I rented one. I felt a little guilty about subjecting any instrument to a hot trunk, but this rental really was a clunker! It weighed a ton, and it came with one of those fiberglass Glasser bows. (Ick)

It did its job of keeping my fingers in shape, and I really appreciated my instrument after our trip!


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## ebethmom

Miranda and Stacy (and other teachers and Moms with Suzuki insight!) - I just got an email from a student's Mom about an ongoing issue. The younger of two sisters is struggling with her practice and wants to quit lessons. I appreciate that the parents have told her "violin is what we do, and you play too well to quit." They are continuing for now, but her Mom has told me that she is very frustrated with her daughter's attitude.

This student has several recently diagnosed learning disabilities. I don't have many details on these. I'm not sure how her LD directly affect her violin learning. I do know that the self-esteem issues do impact her practice sessions and her lessons. She is very sensitive to correction.

I did ask the Mom what her daughter dislikes about violin, and her daughter's response was "you and my teacher listen to me play, tell me what's good about it, then make me work on it some more." How would you go about addressing this? Do you interpret this as a student who probably needs more ownership?

They are going to Institute in a few weeks. I hope it's a good experience. They are going to a brand new one that has a different format.


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## PiePie

Can I have some advice on guiding DD as she chooses an instrument? I expect her to start lessons in a month and a half, when she will be 3 yo. She has tried out both violin and cello and liked both. When asked, she will say she wants to play both. (This is her typical answer when presented with a choice.) I had expected her to go a school where they would interview her and guide us to the best fit (whereas I know I picked violin just because girls I wanted to be friends with played the violin -- nothing to do with me and the instrument) but for various irritating reasons we are just going with private lessons independent of any school for the first year.


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## greenmamapagan

ebethmom, I teach but not Suzuki. I think you're correct that she needs more ownership. How about asking her what she thinks could be improved?
PiePie, it isn't clear from your post if she's really driven to play an instrument at all yet. Is there a reason you want her to start at three? My DD was desperate to start violin from her second birthday. Because we moved just after we found a teacher she had one lesson but then didn't start until around 3.75. If she'd continued with that desperation in the interim we would have searched harder for a teacher in our new area but she found ballet in the meantime and I think those extra months have been helpful


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## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenmamapagan* 
My DD was desperate to start violin from her second birthday. Because we moved just after we found a teacher she had one lesson but then didn't start until around 3.75.

This was my dd as well. She started at 3 y 2 mos. The first 6 months were hard. Then it was great for a while. We of course had hard patches but in general she is now almost 12 and has (almost) full ownership except for reminders TO practice. This is good b/c she mostly practices 2 plus hours a day, and I canNOT sit with her more than 10 min chunks these days.

Tried starting my son when he was 4 1/2 and "really wanted to" and we backed off. He was not ready. My next kid just turned 4. I really am in the mode of start when the kid is ready. I think if anyone else wants to do violin I'd start between 4 1/2 and 6, depending on her insistence (the youngest 2 are both girls). Yes, even for Suzuki.

We haven't gone camping yet. DH just brought home the cheap violin with its strings replaced this week. The (cheaper) luthier took the fine tuners off b/c they're the wrong kind for wrapped strings, so we're practicing tuning with just pegs, certainly a real challenge. We didn't want to put much money into the alt. violin. DD is practicing on it a little bit this week. It sounds like it's a smaller "room" inside than her current violin, although it's a slightly large 1/2 size. It's an interesting tone for the Scottish fiddling she's playing with (since Institute). We're going camping next week. The other good thing is, the case is a tiny case, as opposed to her behemoth case. We'll have to get one of the super expensive kinds of cases for travel, as we won't usually be camping for many days in a row; just visiting GPs across the country.

Would you turn the pegs 1/4 turn flat for while in flight?


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## Marisgirl

Just checking in, I have a DS who plays the cello and has been for the last couple of years. We were late starters (he started at 7) and he enjoys it immensely. Looking forward to what this thread has in store.


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## honeybee

Checking back in after a long hiatus. I had just about forgotten about this tribe, but I'm glad it's still here.









I am struggling with Suzuki. Ds1 has been playing for about 1 year and 8 months. It has been up and down. Things do seem to be finally coming together in terms of his positioning with bow and violin hand. It does seem like once one thing gets fixed, something else gets out of whack.

We have struggled with practice. To be honest, I'm not sure I'M disciplined enough for Suzuki.







I try, but with soon-to-be -four kiddos under age 7, life just seems really full. Also, sometimes he will really fight me about practice, which makes me dread it, too.

He is starting first grade in the fall, and I am wondering when to fit practice in once he is full-time. His school goes really late... 9 to 4, so there is not a whole lot of time in the evening with dinner and getting ready for bed... and he so needs some down/play time, too.

We're also starting my 4 1/2 year old in a couple of weeks, who is very eager to start. Ds1 will be switching teachers (same studio... it's scheduling/time issues), and ds2 will start with the new teacher. And I'm having a baby in October. So, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. But I don't want to stop... progress has been so slow for ds1 that a long break would put us back to square 1. I try not to compare, but students that started much later are past him in book 1... I am just glad he doesn't really notice that.

I have just been going along on the premise that I can just do the best I can with life circumstances in the moment, and at least he's getting the exposure, even though we are by far not a perfect Suzuki family. But then I read things about kids just needing to be kids and not pushed early into formal lessons, etc. and wonder if I am just on some kind of ego trip.

I don't think so... I am not aiming to have professional musicians. I just want them to have a musical background so if they choose to pursue it more formally later, they have that potential (I feel like I never had a chance starting an instrument later, 5th grade, and never being able to take private lessons, and never getting very good even though I practiced a lot). And, I want them to love music and be able to play informally and have something to enjoy for the rest of their lives.

So, anyways, I am glad this thread is here to get a little encouragement, some ideas for making practice more fun, and I'm hoping for a "hang in there, it does get better/easier, it's worth it" etc.


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## Bekka

I will just reply quickly, honeybee. Hang in there; transitions (new school years) can be really hard. My daughter was in book 1 for three years--a teacher transition actually slowed things down a bit, but may not for all children. She is 12 and is advancing readily through book 5 and plays well and with confidence. Advancing quickly is not always ideal.

And there is space to "let kids be kids" within the context of Suzuki... many of us have reached some sort of hiatus where we needed to "let things go" for a while; do the minimum, etc. Make sure you have read Ed Sprunger's book, it has some ideas for you.

This thread moves slow, but there are good ideas here sometimes. Your goals for music are great!


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## Zoesmama

Hey everyone. I was referred to this tribe. I see lots of pages of info I can learn. My dd(7)'s charter arts school started a honors music for the lower grades that weren't offered orchestra(K thru 2nd or 3rd) and they get to do suzuki violin lessons this year. At first it was going to be once a week but the teacher increased it starting this week to Tuesdays and Thursdays so extra learning.

I may seek out private lessons over next summer as well.

I was wondering about a few things but I'll spend some time reading before I dive in.









Oh and I am reading The Suzuki Violinist by William Starr.


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## Mama Shifra

Melissa--

First of all, make sure that you play the Suzuki Violin 1 tape/CD whenever you can--at least once a day!

If you can leave the violin out on a table where it will not get hurt or sat on (hard to do if you have toddlers in the house), the violin will be played more often!

I also found that my playing the violin [by watching the instructor teach my son, my 10 year old daughter (who was not taking violin) and I were able to do it], we were able to stimulate my son to play the violin also! The revised editions of Suzuki violin are much better at explaining to lay people about how to do the exercises.

It also helped us by buying Don't Fret Violin "Finger Tape" Decal (amazon.com sells it; we got it from www.ymonline.com) to let us know where to place our fingers. We had the store where we bought the violin put the Don't Fret sticker on the violin.


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## Zoesmama

The teacher put 3 tapes on the "neck"(going on limited time and knowledge of the violin) under the strings. Is that the tape?

She learned to pluck twinkle twinkle little star. I'll see what happens tomorrow. She definitely needs to practice more but I don't have any tapes or books other than the ones I proactively checked out at the public library. How do I find this "tape". I'm sure practice will increase when she has more learned but I try to encourage her to at least play around. Does the tape/cd help with that?

We have a very snoopy kitten that climbs on everything so I don't feel comfortable leaving it out of the case but the case is located in the living room so it gets passed by a lot. I have that same problem with my camera. I want to learn more and more and grow with photography and leaving it out keeps it handy and more ready but I do leave it on the floor sometimes. Its ready to grab and take the cap off and already on the floor so it can't be knocked off. But my camera is more sturdy than the violin so alas it is staying in the case when she is not using it for now. The kitty already plays with(or tries) the guitar hero guitars.


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## Bekka

Do you have a cabinet drawer? We found so often that it was extremely time consuming to get the violin out of the case, and dd lost interest by the time it was out. We had a cabinet with a large deep drawer, so I lined it with an old pillowcase and she has kept her violin in the same drawer for many years now. She's on a 1/2 size violin at the moment and it still fits; I am wondering about a 3/4 violin when she gets there, but she has younger siblings and we may need the violin drawer for someone else's violin at some point. Right now her sister plays the piano and no one else plays.


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## babymommy2

My 4.5 year old is new to suzuki piano, as am I. we've had 2 lessons so far and he is really disliking it. The lessons are okay, it is the practice that he doesn't like. In particular the "games" where he is supposed to be learning which fingers are which numbers and games where he is learing the rhythm for the first twinkle exercise. What we are supposed to be doing so far:
1. play anything you want and give it a name ( he likes this)
2. games for finger numbers, which he hates even though I keep trying different things
3. games for the rhythm, doesn't like this too much but will do it if i let him lead and I copy him
4. play the twinkle rhythm on the piano, he will do it, but doesn't love it.

Is he too young?
do we need to try for longer to know?
any suggestions for other games?

I am worried I am killing his love for music and I will totlaly turn him off piano for good. This is not how I thought it would go, particularity with suzuki piano.

I am trying to consistantly have practise at the same time of day so it just becomes routine, ( home from preshcool, eat lunch, then practise) but sometimes then the baby needs a nap right then, then we won't do it while the baby is napping, by then its time to pick up my other child for shcool and practise gets lost in the day. I need better consistancy here I know.


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## Bekka

How early is school? Our best results have been to do at least 1/2 of practice before school whenever is possible. It's hard with a baby, though...


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## Diane B

I would definitely give it a little more time, at least 3 months. You and he will find your way with this, but it takes time, I think. You are asking him to do something completely different from his usual activities and you have to figure out what's motivating, when to back off, etc. I wouldn't worry if you miss a day or two each week; shoot for a number you can manage (like 4 out of 7). I have also asked her teacher for help with practice ideas when we get stuck, and she's always been great. You could certainly call her up for some tips.

I think our daughter was 5 before she figured out the connection between practice and improvement - she started at 3.5. That's a cognitive leap that takes time and experience.

Good luck!


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## Greenmama2

What is his personality like? My DD _hated_ violin "games" but she doesn't mind practice at all







She needs to feel as though she is actually working towards a goal rather than just "playing games". It was awfully confusing for a while as she seemed to want to do violin so much yet every week she would resist practicing more and more until just as we were thinking we should give up the idea she said "I don't want to play violin _games_, I want to do _real_ practice!". Oh, OK! We finally got it. Perhaps your DS feels similarly?
Having said all that, DD has been at a standstill for a couple of months. A combination of two long road trips sans violin and difficulties with the teacher's children (who are with her in DD's lessons). I think the only way to surmount the teacher difficulties and keep DD's interest is probably to give up on that teacher. Seeing as there isn't another certified Suzuki teacher within a 40 min drive (and I don't drive) I guess that means I wont be a real Suzuki Mama anymore







Maybe I'll have to start a "sort of, not really Suzuki Mamas Tribe"


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## Greenmama2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 
Do you have a cabinet drawer? We found so often that it was extremely time consuming to get the violin out of the case, and dd lost interest by the time it was out. We had a cabinet with a large deep drawer, so I lined it with an old pillowcase and she has kept her violin in the same drawer for many years now. She's on a 1/2 size violin at the moment and it still fits; I am wondering about a 3/4 violin when she gets there, but she has younger siblings and we may need the violin drawer for someone else's violin at some point. Right now her sister plays the piano and no one else plays.

Just reading back. This is such a good idea







. DD is pretty focused & likes the ritual of the case so if it was just her it wouldn't be a problem but of course little brother (16 months) is always around and with his "help" it always takes longer than it should. I wonder if we could find somewhere else to keep it....


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## crunchy kris

Hello Mamas!

I'm a long time lurker, both on the boards and this tribe. I got an account sveral months ago and finally decided it's time to come out of lurkdom.









I'm not sure there's a Suzuki-thing that I'm not. I grew up as a Suzuki kid and am now a Suzuki teacher and mama to three young Suzuki violinists.
My eldest, DD 12, started violin a month before turning three. She'd been _begging_for lessons for months and I eventually managed to find a teacher who we both felt comfortable with and didn't think it was crazy for a not-quite-three-year-old to be in love with the violin. It's been a long journey, with many ups and downs.







She just started her first Mozart concerto (5) and is loving it.
DS 8 also loved violin as a baby/toddler/preschooler and started at age 3. He's having a great time learning his first concerti movements (Seitz).
DD 5 is thrilled to be starting "real" violin lessons this year. We adopted her from China when she was four and she's only started talking understandable English a few months ago. Violin lessons just weren't an option so I taught her at home. She's speaking very clearly now, and, sure she can do everything her older siblings can, has started taking lessons with our lovely teacher. She's working on the Twinkles.









So, that's me!


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## ebethmom

Hi Kris! I grew up as a Suzuki kid, too. I only played violin for my first year, then switched to viola. Growing up as a Suzuki violist before the viola books were published meant that I was on the outside looking in a lot of the time. Now I'm a violist who mostly teaches violin students. Again, on the outside!

Congrats to your daughter on learning the A major! I think that's my favorite of the Mozart violin concerti. I've been working on the Symphonia Concertante lately - listening to it always makes me happy.

We live far from all other Suzuki activity, so I teach my own kids. My daughter is working on Oh Come Little Children, but she really likes to practice trills, glissandi, and ricochet bowings. My son has decided that he wants to learn the rest of Book 2 before the end of the year. He keeps asking me if learning vibrato is really necessary. He would feel better about learning vibrato if it could just be easier.


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## moominmamma

Welcome, Elizabeth!

My story is similar to yours: raised a Suzuki violin kid, became a Suzuki parent and Suzuki teacher, now have my own Suzuki brood. Fiona (7) is finishing the Vivaldi g minor, Noah (14) is finishing viola Book 8, Sophie (11) is starting violin Book 8, Erin (16) is doing a set of full-length recitals in November, and looking forward to a career in performance, for better or worse.







She's off tomorrow on a trip across the country scouting out potential teachers at universities.

Miranda


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## crunchy kris

Thanks for the warm welcome ladies! It's always so interesting to hear of people with similar stories!

Thanks ebethmom! Elisabeth has been looking forward to getting to the Mozart concerti for well over a year. She ploughed threw book 8 in her enthusasim. My personal favourite is the D major. I always love it when one of my students learns it! I love the Symphonia Concertante too.
I'm curious as to how you find teaching your own kids. I didn't think that teaching Grace would be too different from being the "home teacher" I was for my other kids. But I found that without the accountability and outside input practicing wasn't as regular as it should have been and I was always worried about missing things. That said, I enjoyed it for the most part. It was a really great bonding experience for us and I learnt so much. She's doing just fine in her lessons now so I must not have done a terrible job.
Oh, vibrato! I had such as funny experience with Sam and vibrato. Last May his teacher said "I think we should start working on vibrato". To which Sam replied "Oh, I can already do that." and then showed us a lovely vibrato which he was easily able to apply to his pieces. I'd never heard him practicing it and he never used it while playing; but there it was! It was such a different experience from the hours Elisabeth spent working on exercises that drove the rest of us crazy. It took her months to develop anything beyond a shaky wobble; not that you can tell now. I wish your son luck with his vibrato!

Miranda, I see you're from Canada. I'm in Ontario. It looks like Erin's got lots of exciting things on her plate! I hope she's having a great time on her trip. What universities are she considering?

Kristina


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## insahmniak

Dealing with a request to change teachers....

My daughter (recently turned 7) has been with the same teacher for 4 years and for the past month or so she's been sighing when I bring up her lessons. When I ask her about her response she says, "It's boring. She talks so much and I don't get very much done."

I should tell you that we all *adore* this teacher. She is so positive. So caring and kind. So very encouraging to youngsters. She has a way with the little ones. I do feel that at we reach the end of book 3 we may have reached the edge of her comfort zone and experience. But she's very much interested in pushing herself to stay on top of things and works hard to do this. She does talk quite a bit during lesson - and I think it'd be hard for her to quell this. She's a very *brainy* teacher and player. She thinks a lot while she plays, if you know what I mean. Sometimes when I notice she's losing my daughter's interest I can't help but think about what I've heard from Ed Sprunger: talk less.

I'm trying to figure out if this might be an ebb/flow cycle that's worth weathering, or if it's really time for a change. Anyone else have any experience with this kind of lull?


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## Bekka

I have the talkative student. We call talking her language of love.







She's always even at 12 constantly being reminded by her teachers (spouses) to play now, and "tell it with the music."

She is very analytical and wants to define something verbally and how something is "like something else." It's really cute, but has caused some struggles especially when she was younger.

But she LOVES her teachers, and "fell in love" with them (her words) when she was 6. I've asked if she would ever want to switch and she doesn't!

Could you have your dd describe how an "ideal" lesson would go to her? Like the whole 30 min/45 min or whatever? Maybe once that is described, she/you could bring the concerns to the teacher?


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## insahmniak

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bekka* 

Could you have your dd describe how an "ideal" lesson would go to her? Like the whole 30 min/45 min or whatever? Maybe once that is described, she/you could bring the concerns to the teacher?

Great idea! Thank you! I'm going to ask my daughter about it this afternoon while we practice.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy kris* 
It looks like Erin's got lots of exciting things on her plate! I hope she's having a great time on her trip. What universities are she considering?

Last summer she worked with someone who told her on no uncertain terms that she should go to the best violin performance program in Canada, and that this was currently McGill, and she should get lessons with some of the McGill teachers if she could this year and plan on playing as strong an audition as she can there in late 2011 / early2012. Erin took her seriously (this was Gwen Hoebig, so she deserves to be taken seriously!) and has become pretty fixated on McGill. It doesn't hurt that she loved Montreal when she did a quartet exchange trip there a couple of years ago.

She's also got UofT and UBC as distant alternate choices.

Miranda


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## crunchy kris

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Last summer she worked with someone who told her on no uncertain terms that she should go to the best violin performance program in Canada, and that this was currently McGill, and she should get lessons with some of the McGill teachers if she could this year and plan on playing as strong an audition as she can there in late 2011 / early2012. Erin took her seriously (this was Gwen Hoebig, so she deserves to be taken seriously!) and has become pretty fixated on McGill. It doesn't hurt that she loved Montreal when she did a quartet exchange trip there a couple of years ago.

She's also got UofT and UBC as distant alternate choices.

Miranda

I went to McGill! Gwen Hoebig is certainly right (I'm sure you already knew that), it's the best. My four years there were wonderfully challenging and immensly rewarding. I then got a job with the Orchestre Symphonique de Montréal. At this point in my life it's not practical for me to be performing, but I'd love to go back to it in a few years.
I may be a bit biased but McGill is one of the best universities in _the_ best city (I'm actually quite biased about the last part). I hope your daughter as an excellent time checking it out and all the best with her audition!


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy kris* 
I went to McGill! Gwen Hoebig is certainly right (I'm sure you already knew that), it's the best. My four years there were wonderfully challenging and immensly rewarding.

Cool! My brother went there in the 80's but didn't get along with his teacher terribly well (Mr. Fuks) and got a good scholarship at Cleveland so he transferred. But he did love Montreal and McGill. Erin has had lessons this week with Mark Fewer, Denise Lupien and Jonathan Crowe and loved them all. She thought Denise was adorable and they got along like they'd known each other for years, but she really liked the other two as well. All the teachers told her she'd have no trouble getting into the performance program and that she should work towards scholarships, so that was encouraging.

She now wants to move to Montreal next year and just live there and take weekly lessons and be in an orchestra and play chamber music and stuff. She can't do any of that stuff here, and so she's right: it would give her so much, and put her on a more equal footing with students she'd be competing against for admission scholarships. And she's mostly homeschooled and could do the last bit of her Grade 12 level academics via on-line means, so that's not an issue. But I'm not sure about her living independently 4000 km away at 17....

Miranda


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## crunchy kris

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Cool! My brother went there in the 80's but didn't get along with his teacher terribly well (Mr. Fuks) and got a good scholarship at Cleveland so he transferred. But he did love Montreal and McGill.

Very cool! I was there in the early '90s, so a bit before your brother's time I guess.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
Erin has had lessons this week with Mark Fewer, Denise Lupien and Jonathan Crowe and loved them all. She thought Denise was adorable and they got along like they'd known each other for years, but she really liked the other two as well. All the teachers told her she'd have no trouble getting into the performance program and that she should work towards scholarships, so that was encouraging.


That's great! I know Jonathan quite well; our time at McGill overlapped a bit and we played in OSM together. He's an fabulous player, and an excellent teacher too by all accounts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moominmamma* 
She now wants to move to Montreal next year and just live there and take weekly lessons and be in an orchestra and play chamber music and stuff. She can't do any of that stuff here, and so she's right: it would give her so much, and put her on a more equal footing with students she'd be competing against for admission scholarships. And she's mostly homeschooled and could do the last bit of her Grade 12 level academics via on-line means, so that's not an issue. But I'm not sure about her living independently 4000 km away at 17....

Miranda

Wow, right now I'm wishing I was 17







that sounds like so much fun. But definitely not an easy choice for the mother!


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## Greenmama2

*sigh* I need some advice or reassurance or a slap on the hand or something. On the one hand DD:
* Is adamant she doesn't want to stop or even take a break from violin
* Is happily practicing everyday
* Is suddenly progressing again and pulling her twinkles together
On the other
* She is adamant that she will not go back to her Suzuki teacher
* Will not try another teacher, at least not until the new school year in February
* Wants to "learn at home with you Mama"
Argh. I'm not a string player, I'm a flautist with a Masters in Orchestral conducting. I know plenty about string playing, just not how to actually _do_ it







Certainly not how to teach a beginner, an itty bitty almost 4.5 year old one at that.
We unschool so on one level it's pretty clear - if she wants to do it we do and if she doesn't we don't but I have so many conflicting thoughts running around in my head. YK, I'm unknowingly teaching her all kinds of bad habits, setting her up for future repetitive stress injuries even (this is a real possibility with bad flute teaching so I assume it is with violin too) vs "Hey, she's only a Twinkler what harm can it possibly do?" "But she's enjoying it" "She'll probably switch to a wind or brass instrument later when she has all her adult teeth/more mature lungs". And so on and so on.
We stuck it out through the problems she had with her teacher for so long as I told her I didn't want to be her main teacher because violin wasn't my main instrument. So that arguement is used and discarded already.
WWYD? Force her to stop? Force her to go to a different (non-Suzuki or a two hour train trip) teacher? Continue as we are for as long as I can stand it & hope she'll want to find a teacher again? A fourth option I haven't thought of? Help!


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## moominmamma

Here's the fourth option, I think:

You take her lessons. Explain to your dd that you are willing to try being her home teacher on your own for a while and see how it goes, but because you don't know how to play or teach the violin you need the teacher to teach you how to help her. And so you will go to lessons but the lessons will be yours for now, not hers.

Do you have a violin? Each week you go to her lessons with her in tow, and you let the teacher teach _you_ to play the Suzuki repertoire, and also to guide you in being the home teacher. You get your own pointers about Song of the Wind or bow-hold or whatever. You also explain "at home I'm working with dd on the left hand shape, and I see [this] problem happening, it's sort of like this, and we've tried working on it this way [demonstrating....] but it's not really clicking and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions." Or "Can you show me again that prep exercise for the fingering pattern in Lightly Row? I want to make sure I remember it properly for when I introduce it to her." And you also work on learning the instrument and the repertoire yourself.

And eventually, after a couple of months like this, there might come a day when your dd is interested in "showing off" for the teacher something new that she's accomplished through her work with you. And I would definitely rejoice if that day comes, and encourage her to do so, but make sure that the teacher knows that she should just applaud and express appreciation and not turn it into a lesson. She needs to know that if she's willing to participate a bit, that the teacher is going to let her do so on her terms, that she is still able to be in charge of setting limits.

She might also be willing to help at the lesson, allowing herself to be part of the explanation as you ask for help being the home teacher. Like "Okay, so she'll have her violin up like this, and her left hand in place, then what I'm doing is tapping her fingers, like this, to remind them about what to do. And I sing the pitches as we do it, like this.... What do you think? Is that a reasonable way to learn this passage? (Thank you dd for helping show the teacher, you can go back and sit in the listener's chair now.)"

I expect that gradually whatever fear and discomfort she has about the lesson expectations might soften if she has a few months of this sort of experience. She can then be the one to gradually open the door if she feels more comfortable and eager for her own instruction.

I've done this successfully with a couple of young violin students who for whatever reason developed an aversion to their own lesson instruction. It didn't take long for them to want to start participating a bit in the lessons again.

Miranda


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## Greenmama2

Thanks Miranda. Unfortunately that's not an option with the Suzuki teacher we just left (although there's more to it than that DD's main problem was with her two exuberant 4 & 2 year old boys who are in and out of the room while she teaches, I suspect having DD unoccupied would mean _more_ problems with them) but I will approach the non-Suzuki teacher I was considering with that in mind. I think we'll be fine as we are hopefully till after Christmas, then when she starts to think more about Lightly Row I will put it to her just like that - that since I'm not a violinist I will need to have a lesson with someone in order to help her approach it


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## insahmniak

Sources for fractionals?

We're looking to move from 1/8 to 1/4 - wow. It seems like a huge jump in size! And if the tone is not very pleasing, well, you have all that much more of it. So I feel like we need to tread carefully.

Currently we have a rental from a long-distance shop - Summerhays in UT. Up to this point we've been fairly pleased with their selection of rentals. The one we are currently renting is a nice Andare. They also just shipped us a 1/4 Richter and a 1/4 Pygmalius to try. These two are miles apart in tone and I don't see us being happy with anything like the Richter. The Pygmalius, on the other hand, just rings in your ear. If I were a student I'd want something like that on my shoulder.

Rental for something like the Pygmalius is quite a bit more, and has made me consider purchase options. Is this a good time to buy? I would have to travel or have them shipped. Anyone have any recommendations about places with good selection and easy to work with over long distances? Are there some violin classified ad websites I should check? I could make a visit to SLC to shop hop and try a bunch. But it sure would be nice to have some other options.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *insahmniak* 
Sources for fractionals?

We're looking to move from 1/8 to 1/4 - wow. It seems like a huge jump in size! And if the tone is not very pleasing, well, you have all that much more of it. So I feel like we need to tread carefully.

Currently we have a rental from a long-distance shop - Summerhays in UT. Up to this point we've been fairly pleased with their selection of rentals. The one we are currently renting is a nice Andare. They also just shipped us a 1/4 Richter and a 1/4 Pygmalius to try. These two are miles apart in tone and I don't see us being happy with anything like the Richter. The Pygmalius, on the other hand, just rings in your ear. If I were a student I'd want something like that on my shoulder.

Rental for something like the Pygmalius is quite a bit more, and has made me consider purchase options. Is this a good time to buy? I would have to travel or have them shipped. Anyone have any recommendations about places with good selection and easy to work with over long distances? Are there some violin classified ad websites I should check? I could make a visit to SLC to shop hop and try a bunch. But it sure would be nice to have some other options.

First, I'm envious of the move to a quarter! I think my youngest has another year or so before that's in the cards for her.

I do think that this is a good time to buy. It gives you more selection for instruments, and it also softens the hit later. If you buy a quarter you'll have equity to offset the cost of buying what will no doubt have to be an even higher-quality more expensive half-size in a couple of years.

Unfortunately my luthier contacts are all in Canada, and since most decent fractionals are Asian-made these days NAFTA won't help if you shop across the border meaning you'd be hit with duties and all sorts of expensive complications.

Hope someone else has some US suggestions.

Miranda


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## LuckyMommaToo

Hey mommas! DD turned four in May. She has been asking to play a "real instrument." We have a friend who is a musician who did Suzuki as a kid and recommends it. Here are my questions:
--Neither DH or I is particularly musical. I played violin for a few years in school. DH is a good singer. But I don't think either of us could pick up sheet music and understand it easily at this point. Is that going to be a problem?

--How do I find a teacher? I've been Googling, but not finding much. We live in Los Angeles, so it seems like it shouldn't be too hard, so I'm surprised. Any guidance?
thanks,
-e


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## crunchy kris

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuckyMommaToo* 
Hey mommas! DD turned four in May. She has been asking to play a "real instrument." We have a friend who is a musician who did Suzuki as a kid and recommends it. Here are my questions:
--Neither DH or I is particularly musical. I played violin for a few years in school. DH is a good singer. But I don't think either of us could pick up sheet music and understand it easily at this point. Is that going to be a problem?

--How do I find a teacher? I've been Googling, but not finding much. We live in Los Angeles, so it seems like it shouldn't be too hard, so I'm surprised. Any guidance?
thanks,
-e

Dr. Suzuki's philosophy was that anyone can play an instrument and that talent is not an inborn thing, but something than anyone can work towards and achieve throught good training. Being a Suzuki parent means you'll be attening your DD's lessons, taking notes there, and practicing with her at home. You may even wish to learn you're daughter's instrument (some teachers require this, others don't). IMO it's more important to be a willing, able student yourself, than have any musical skill.

As far as teachers go, I'd try asking members of your local orchestra and checking out conservatories; the people there will have lots of contacts.


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## Bekka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuckyMommaToo* 
--How do I find a teacher? I've been Googling, but not finding much. We live in Los Angeles, so it seems like it shouldn't be too hard, so I'm surprised. Any guidance?
thanks,
-e

http://suzukiassociation.org/teachers/teacherloc/


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## Bekka

http://pottersviolins.com/rentals.php

This is our luthier in this area. We paid the same price monthly to rent a (very tiny!) 1/32nd when dd was 3 in another city, and it was not so great of tone. Her teacher wanted her to move up to a Chinese violin, which was $500 plus the bow ($150) when she was only 5. We chose to go another route and worked through Marquis Violins in the LA area (and my friend who plays viola). That was a good transition instrument; also a Chinese instrument, probably different shop. This was probably it: http://www.marquisviolins.com/instru...-preludevn.htm

Potters' rentals are very high quality compared to our other rental experiences. They say they will rent long-distance, if that's what you want to do. At this point, dd is playing on a purchased (used) Doetsch, 1/2 sized violin. This is a lot, but we trade up in price as we go up in size, and therefore we only pay around $200 for the trade up.

Must attend to a messy diaper. Hope this helps a bit, slightly disjointed.


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## b_light

Hi there! My son is three and recently started on the violin. We've just gotten a real rental violin to take home (he had been practicing with a box violin). It's only been a few days but he very much prefers the box violin to the real one.

When he started practicing with the pretend bow, he preferred to do the more familiar things at that point, too, and avoid the bow. Now that he has a real bow, he prefers the pretend one, etc.

On the other hand, he says that he is frustrated that he isn't doing something "harder". For instance, his teacher told him one time which hand was his bow hand and which was his violin hand, and she put stickers on his hands which he promptly ripped off because he wanted the game to be sufficiently hard (and he's still only been told once which hand was which and has never forgotten, even though he has yet to learn right and left). So, some (most?) things he enjoys the challenge, but holding the bow for whatever reason isn't working out that way.

All of the bow exercises are fun, but he seems to have put up a mental block.

For background purposes, taking music lessons was his idea and something he asked for for over a year before we pursued. Violin was his second choice (after the first didn't pan out) and he clicked with the teacher right away. He'll happily do practice everyday, sometimes will ask to do it multiple times a day, he is just frustrated with holding the bow at the moment.

I'm just curious if this is typical, or if anyone experienced it, or if there are any tips to help him enjoy this part more.


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## HotMama

Looking for some transition advice...dd is 8, and has been doing Suzuki violin for 3 1/2 years (progressing slowly), and is ready to switch to cello. She heard a cello piece on the radio almost 2 years ago and knew then she wanted to play, but didn't want to switch teachers. Now she's ready...so, I've asked her to complete her current violin song and keep her daily practice on note reading (even though I know it will be different when she's doing cello), but any thoughts on making the transition smooth? I didn't want to just stop mid-song and quit practicing until cello lessons could start, because she would be a challenge to get back into a practice rhythm. We will be trading in her rental violin for a rental cello, so it's not like she can come back and play a song now and then. It just seems so final, that all those songs she's learned, and the picking it up and playing around with sounds/music will have to start all over with a new instrument. And, maybe this is about letting go for me ; ) Any advice from more experienced parents out there? How can I honor her passion for cello, and all that work and beauty on the violin?


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## Greenmama2

HotMama, how exciting to be changing to the instrument she is passionate about. I think you will be surprised how many of her skills are easily adaptable. Note reading for example is not really that different. Once you have the basic concepts of how music is notated in one clef, the other clefs are all perfectly logical.

b_light is your son by any chance a little bit of a perfectionist? By the way, although my DD has known left and right since she was a toddler she has been occasionally forgetting lately and we find it helps to say "your bow hand" or "your violin hand"


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## b_light

greenmama2 - I think he is a bit of a perfectionist, as am I with some things. Do you have any suggestions to help us with violin for a child with a touch of perfectionism?


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## moominmamma

For the perfectionist ...

The reticence is about fear of failure. So I would remove the possibility of failure for now by making the bowhold for him. One trick that many kids enjoy is the Abracadabra Magic Bow-hold Trick. You take a silk scarf or playsilk and drape it over the bow and hand. Then the parent reaches under the scarf with both hands and tries to position the child's hand on the bow properly, and entirely by feel. Once everything is set up, the parent makes a big production of doing an "abdracadabra" over the scarf and then with a flourish removes it, yells "taDA!" and you both ogle the bow hold and express awe and excitement over the magical appearance of a perfect bow hold. Or else you laugh yourself silly or smack yourself on the forehead in a goofy way if the thumb isn't bent because you "forgot" to make the child's thumb bend. It's a great way of the parent taking responsibility for the mistakes, rather than the child feeling like he's risking his own self-concept. And you model a healthy reaction to mistakes by pointing them out with easy-going silliness.

"Some day," you tell your child, "you might want to learn to do the Abracadabra Magic Bow-hold Trick yourself. For now I'm the magician, though. If you want to help a little you can. You are the magician's assistant." If you reach in to position his thumb and discover that it's already bent on the frog, remark on what an awesome magician's assistant he is. But don't ask him to try doing it all on his own. Leave it up to him to decide when he wants to try making a bowhold himself under the silk scarf without your help.

You could also offer him privacy if he wants to try it on his own. Leave the scarf and his bow in his bedroom and suggest he go there if he wants to work on the trick by himself a bit.

Once he is confident that he has learned enough in these risk-free ways that the possibility of failure is minimal, you will probably find that the reticence will drop away and he will be super keen to do all the bow exercises and show off his learning. Perfectionists get highly invested in particular types of success, so when they accomplish those things they are really delighted and that delight often breed a confidence that carries them forward in a great rush of learning accomplishments.

And yes, this sort of push-me-pull-you reaction to new challenges is pretty common!

Miranda


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## b_light

Miranda, I think I could kiss you! I can't wait to try this at practice time. That sounds like EXACTLY what he needs. (and he does do better with lots of things with privacy, like he'll ask us to avert our eyes or he'll go into another room when he puts new clothes on, I hadn't realized why he was doing that)


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## b_light

Thank you, thank you, thank you! The magic bow trick has really helped!

He's moved on and really loves holding the bow now. He had a rocky, insecure week or two. His teacher really took notice of why he was unfosed as well, and had me make some mistakes to help him relax a little. He seems much more focused now and I think he'll be ready for something more challenging at his next lesson.


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## babymommy2

My question is about suzuki violin. To make a long story short this is our children's first year in music lessons. Our 4 year old is in suzuki piano, our just turned 7 year old is in traditional violin ( but using the suzuki violin book 1, but not the method?!). There is clearly a BIG difference in the teaching method. I clearly prefer the suzuki method, maily as the piano teacher has a lot of ideas to try if something isn't working and I really like how she is teaching me to teach my child. Where as with the violin ( an instrument I had no knowledge of) I feel like I don't know how to teach him, although he is picking up the songs. I am trying my best to adapt what I am learning from the paino lessons to our violin practise, especially with motivational ideas.

My question is

1. if you were in suzuki violin what are some of the early bow exercises you do? Our traditional teacher gave us 4 exercises at the beginning, but no further and when I ask for more ideas (as he is comlpetely bored with the same 4 over and over) I don't seem to get anywhere. We practise using the entire bow "open string" on various strings to learn to use the bow on 1 string only. He does well, but when playing a song often hits 2 strings at the same time. Also do the same thing trying to go loud and then soft. He can't seem to get this at all. Also do "fly" where he uses the bow a little at each end and flys the bow over the strings, I think this is mainly for better control. He still doesnt' hold the bow quite right, and tells us to keep working on it, but HOW? he repositions his hand at the beginning of each song, but somewhere along the way is becomes incorrect. How do I fix this. As the teacher tells us, the songs he is doing now he could do with a fist and it would sound fine, but of course for the long term it need to be right or he will have to relearn it when the techniques get harder.

2. he is using the suzuki book 1 , with tradiotnal method, and is learning to read the notes. Although at home we are mostly going line by line and he is memorizing it. The teacher says if I stop writing the letters on the top and make him think about the notes and read them, even though it will be slow going, in 2 months he will be reading the notes well. Is this realistic (age 7)? at what point do you start reading with suzuki and how is it done. With piano and the 4 year old, obviously we are long from that so I am not sure how it is usually done.


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## babymommy2

Another question,

Do you think it is too late to switch over to suzuki violin for next year, age 7 turning 8?


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## lolalo

Great posts. Thanks people.


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## Bird Girl

Babymommy2, I don't think 7/8 is too old to start with a Suzuki teacher. Why don't you look around and see if there's one near you who has an opening? A good Suzuki teacher will handle an older beginner differently than they handle a 4/5 year old beginner, and part of that process will include more music reading. (However, it really is very difficult to watch the printed music page at the same time that you are learning to "drive" the violin, so most likely, music reading will begin as a separate component.) Best of luck!


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## Diane B

I'll just share how my daughter's suzuki teacher is handling note reading (she's almost 7, started at 3.5). She separates note reading completely from the suzuki book at this point, because, as the previous poster noted, it's just too darn much, even after 3 years of violin, to try to manage her bow hold, positions, posture, bowing, pitch, etc. AND learn to read music at the same time. Instead, she uses a separate string method book to teach the notes, and we don't worry so much about the other aspects when working out of that book. I think it's working great. She's still getting the wonderful ear training from the Suzuki method, as well as learning to read music.

I'm quite sure you could find a suzuki teacher who would take your child. There is a girl my daughter's age just before our lesson who is a beginner. She just moves faster through the pieces than my daughter did at age 3 or 4.


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## Bekka

They keep using ear training in book 5 and onward...


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## lolalo

Great posts girls. Thanks for the info.


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## mrsfussypants

Hello mamas. I have a question that I hope somebody can help me with. My daughter is 5 years old, has been playing Suzuki cello since 3 1/2. This summer I'd like to take the plunge and add Suzuki piano to the mix. I would be her piano teacher. It seems to me that there would be quite a confusion with finger numberings. For example, on the cello the index finger is referred to as finger number 1, whereas on the piano it is finger number 2. I'm really hoping to avoid unnecessary confusion and frustration with my easily-frustrated girl. Does anybody have any advice or experience regarding this finger-number thing with Suzuki kids? Should I just explain the difference and let her learn both systems albeit with some initial frustration? Use a different system to get her through these early years and then show her the "real" finger number system a few years down the road? I've become quite adept and knowing what works and doesn't work with my child, and I just *know* that this is going to be a big hurdle. Anybody with experience, thoughts, or advice?


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## Diane B

As a piano player, this drives me nuts too - I'm always talking to my daughter about her "fifth finger" meaning her pinky and she looks at me like I'm nuts. I also would like to start my daughter on piano, but she's 7 and I don't think it will be such an issue now - younger kids are much more fixed and absolute in their thinking.

My question would be, though, what are you going to call the thumb? (Maybe "thumb"?)


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## moominmamma

My eldest and youngest both started on stringed instruments (and hence had four fingers and a thumb) quite young and then started piano at age almost-six (where they suddenly developed five-fingered hands). I was somewhat surprised by how little confusion this gave them. It was a lot like learning a second language like Spanish at an early age -- very soon their brains just began to think in Spanish when in a Spanish-speaking environment. When sitting in front of a keyboard with the hands visible above the lap, there are five digits. When fingers are on top of the fingerboard, up near the face, there are four fingers. The message "finger one" automatically starts going to the correct finger no matter what the instrument is.

So my vote would be to tough out the initial confusion and teach conventional piano finger numbers from the start, because you'll probably find the confusion is much less than you expect. It is easy to practice to teach the piano fingers their names. Play a well-learned little ditty on the piano, one hand at a time, and have her say or sing the finger numbers as she plays them. If she makes mistakes just laugh and say "Oops, that was your cello brain answering. Tell it to go take a nap!" Roll a die for each note of a C-major scale, and have her play the next pitch with the finger number that shows up on the die (6 can mean she plays the note with her nose if you want to have some fun). See how fast she can do this. She can time a left hand scale (right hand rolls the die) against a right hand scale (left hand rolling) and see which hand "wins." Roll a 3, play C with finger three, roll a 5, play D with finger five, roll a 6, play E with her nose, etc. etc.

Miranda


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## mrsfussypants

Thank you both for your replies! You know, I think Miranda has me sold on toughing it out at first. That makes sense that just like in a Spanish-speaking environment your brain just switches to Spanish (assuming of course you know Spanish), so also happens with piano. The five fingers on the keyboard as opposed to four on a fingerboard, yep, I think her young brain can adapt! At least I hope!  Thanks for the great ideas!!!


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## greencat

I have a trivial question: Why Concerto for Two Violins in d Minor is in Book 4 and 5? How do student learn this differently?

thanks,


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## Stacymom

Wow, I haven't been on this thread or on MDC forever! Greencat, the Bach Double has two separate violin parts. The second violin part is in Book 4, and the 1st violin part in book 5. IMO, neither part is necessarily much harder than the other. With the revised edition, I actually think the 2nd violin part might be a bit harder because of all the 2nd position work. Our teacher actually puts half her students on each part so we can play it together at group, so my daughter ended up learning the 1st violin part first, and played that all year, and we've just started the 2nd part.

Also, in my experience, the 2nd violin part is quite difficult for a violinist's level at the end of book 4. They have to do some significant practicing, listening, and skill developing to play it well. By the time they get to the end of Book 5, learning the 1st violin part seems easy, almost like a reward piece.


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## greencat

Stacymom: Thanks for the answer.

And, good to know that you are still on MDC.

Now, back to CD listening : )


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## Bekka

Our teachers do this as well, so my dd ended up learning the 1st part last year, and is approaching the end of book 5, and will learn the 2nd part this year. Our studio will be doing this for our group concert, and there are 2 students on each part. Very exciting!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stacymom*
> 
> Wow, I haven't been on this thread or on MDC forever! Greencat, the Bach Double has two separate violin parts. The second violin part is in Book 4, and the 1st violin part in book 5. IMO, neither part is necessarily much harder than the other. With the revised edition, I actually think the 2nd violin part might be a bit harder because of all the 2nd position work. Our teacher actually puts half her students on each part so we can play it together at group, so my daughter ended up learning the 1st violin part first, and played that all year, and we've just started the 2nd part.
> 
> Also, in my experience, the 2nd violin part is quite difficult for a violinist's level at the end of book 4. They have to do some significant practicing, listening, and skill developing to play it well. By the time they get to the end of Book 5, learning the 1st violin part seems easy, almost like a reward piece.


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## greencat

I just spoke with our teacher, and asked about how does she usually teach the Back Double? It seems she has done different things for different students and situation. In our case, she may give us an option to wait until my DD's best friend to finish the Book 4, and let the two girls play the duet. It could be that my DD to learn both parts or her best friend to learn one part and my DD the other. We don't know yet, but I thought this was exciting : )

greencat


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## ebethmom

This thread has been quiet all summer. Did anyone go to Institute this summer? I'm getting ready to go for a teacher training course next week, then my husband will drive our kids up and meet me there for their week. I'm really looking forward to it!

The photographer who works at this Institute just sent out an email offering 2009 and 2010 pictures at the original price. I looked through the pages and found my kids. They've grown so much! In 2009 my daughter was in the Pretwinkle class. I had forgotten how serious and CUTE she was up on stage! How is just-turned-7 *so* much more grown up than just-turned-5?


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## Bekka

No institute for us this year. Dd is going to a kids' only strings Institute starting TOMORROW which means I have to drive everyone in the car to take her an hour away in rush traffic. Maybe won't be too bad; we're hopeful.

DD3 is 5 now, and is very interested in violin; we are planning on starting her with our studio's Pretwinkle class in Sept. She's done a few baby lessons with her sister. It will be like starting over again, very strange in many ways! I have resisted for quite some time; I really needed to be done with some stuff in my life. My littlest also is interested; she is 2 1/2 and very receptive. We are playing Book 1 CD and dd1 is part of the play-practice (over there singing "mississippi hot-dog!" We have foot charts ready to go! Honestly, I have only done Institute with an almost end of book 1 student and more advanced; not sure I can justify the expense for a Twinkler.


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## ebethmom

We just got home from Institute last night. We came home to a boatload of b.s., and it makes me long for a life at Institute! I'm always sad to reenter the outside world, and the transition is even more extreme this year.

It's so gratifying to see my kids grow so much in one week. My son played in orchestra for the first time. It was HARD for him at the beginning of the week, but he finished the week with a sense of accomplishment. When their informal concert was over he said, "I want to do that again!" My daughter was on the younger side of her Technique Class. That was her challenging class, and it turned out to be her favorite, too.

It amazes me how all of their pieces are better in their practice now, even the pieces that they didn't play in their classes last week. Tonight she played Perpetual Motion so nicely! I hadn't heard either of her group classes play that, and none of the kids in her A class worked on that piece. I asked my daughter if they had played that piece when her Dad took her to her Rep class. They hadn't. So then I asked how it had improved so much since last week. She said, "It's because I play it in my head!"

I just renewed my SmartMusic subscription today. While we were at Institute I realized that my kids are missing out by not playing with the accompaniments often. I love the adjustable tempo feature on SmartMusic. The synth sound, not so much, but I guess I can give a little there. My download didn't work right earlier, so I'm going to go try again.

BTW - did you all know that SAA members get a 15% discount on their SmartMusic subscriptions. Associate members get the discount, too. You can get the quarterly SAA journal AND a SmartMusic subscription for just $65 (or $60 if you have 10 families join with a Studio subscription).


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## moominmamma

We completed our annual (local) Suzuki instititute a week and a half ago. It was odd not having my eldest around being part of it -- she was off doing non-Suzuki musical things this summer. And several other members of her cohort of advanced students had also moved on, so the next bunch of kids became more senior and thrived in their new roles.

Dd8 moved up to the advanced orchestra and the advanced group/technique class this year. Ours is a small institute, and she only barely made the cut for the advanced level groups (Books 6-10+). The kids were mostly a fair bit older but she's a focused, mature thing, so I figured she'd be fine. She did some good preparatory work for the orchestra and coped well with the demanding repertoire. Group class ended up focusing a lot on advanced bowing techniques like spiccato, sautillé and ricochet. She had just moved up to a nice hand-me-down quarter-sized violin about three weeks before and I hadn't really appreciated how cheap the bow was until I tried to use it myself to figure out how to advise her about the bowing exercises. It was a fibreglass clunker completely incapable of bouncing -- maybe a $40 bow. Totally useless, and she was really floundering in the class as a result. Fortunately the luthier in residence had a much better bow in stock. A couple of hundred dollars later she was doing and pretty passable quadruple ricochet and getting the hang of sautillé.

Dd12 played second violin opposite her brother in a two-viola quintet (the Mozart g minor), as part of the Advanced Chamber Music program. She was socially very much like a teenager amongst that group of awesome young musicians, fitting in beautifully and enjoying the mileu. She was in the advanced orchestra and group technique class and had a very productive master class with a teacher she got along well with. She performed the Monti Csardas on recital and did a great job. She loved being out and about during the days and the evenings, having a full social life and a busy musical schedule.

Ds14 was also in the thick of things socially as part of the Advanced Chamber Music program and although he would have loved to have his elder sister around to be part of the whole thing, in some ways it was fabulous for him to be able to shine a little brighter as a musician and as a smart, funny, compassionate and increasingly adult-like young person. He is playing just beautifully and actually worked hard on his solo viola repertoire during the week, with motivation left over to carry him forward. He has really struggled with motivation for the past couple of years, so this was nice to see. He had a wonderful affinity for his master class teacher and made some really great strides with his Schubert Arpeggione Sonata.

Now we're planning for fall. Dd17 is moving away to study music and has things pretty well organized. Unfortunately she is not happy with her violin. We bought it four years ago for a little under $3k. It has some set-up issues that are very finicky and none of the luthiers who have looked at it have been able to permanently solve them. I have a feeling that within a year we'll have to take the plunge for a new and much more expensive instrument. She's at a totally different level now. Coincidentally she will be studying with the wife of a very fine violin maker ... who crafts the kind of instrument that would make a good "forever violin" for my girl. But ouch, the cost! We'll see.

Ds14 outrgrew the region's viola teaching some time ago (slim pickings!), so we're faced with driving 7-8 hours for his lessons once a month or so. We used to take him along with his highly committed, hard-working older sister, but now that she's moving away, it will be just for him. Currently he's practicing very hard, easily enough to justify all the driving. We'll have to see if it lasts. He and I will be playing in a small-town symphony four hours from home again this year -- four programs over four different weekends, with a bunch of second-string professionals brought in and or two student musicians (i.e. ds). It'll be good for him to get the reading and orchestral experience.

Miranda


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## Bekka

The biggest issue with multiple children playing instruments in different families is that their music interests are all over the board. As I said, dd1, 12, went to a non-Suzuki strings institute that focused on group playing. She worked in quartet all week, and made a friend cellist, and was frustrated with the 7th grade aged boys... but the ensemble came together anyway.  The chamber-sized orchestra (about 35 people) did great to play Eine Kleine, and some other wonderful stuff. DD1 also moved up from the strings ensemble to the youth concert orchestra, so in 3 weeks she will start those rehearsals as well!

I am going to be entering a new world with having my oldest almost done with book 5, and starting my 5 year old as a PreTwinkler. My 2 year old also has a foot chart and we're practicing rhythms and listening semi-regularly and will be improving on our "routine" after school starts. I was not going to try to start another child at age 4; at this point for my other children and my patience level I need them to be older.

So I have a violinist, dd2, 11, is a pianist and a new trombonist in band, ds, '7, is doing very casual guitar lessons and likes it, and dd3, 5, will be a preTwinkler and dd4, 2, will be a pre-pre-pre Twinkler.  Busy.  Maybe our Institute will work for our family in 2012.


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## Bekka

So separate from my update, I just wanted to get some opinions/ideas. DD1 has decided she wants a violin jam session birthday party. I am at a loss as to how to organize a jam session for her birthday party--should I find some easy to read music for 4 violins or something like that? We can manage a music themed cake, etc., but how do you make a jam session attractive to other music students who might be at about a Suzuki book 2 level? I'd appreciate any ideas!


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## cynthia mosher

Hi everyone!

We have a new feature that allows forum members to create "clubs" of their own that have many of the same benefits of a forum, including multiple threads, a member's list, and group messaging. All tribes are invited to switch from the one-long-thread here in FYT to the new Social Groups. You can read more about it *here. *Let me know if you have any questions but please post to that thread so I can keep everything in one place.


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## mysonsmama

Hi Everyone

I have a pretwinkler who will be 4 this summer and I was looking for a suzuki summer institute/camp that is good for pretwinklers. I am in the nj ny pa area but I would be up for a longer car ride if the program was well established. Anyone have any suggestions, I am not even sure what a good pretwinkler camp would consist of.... His teacher works with an institute but not many pretwinklers as far as i can tell, so I would rather research before asking the teacher, if that makes sense.

Thanks for any help!


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## moominmamma

We have a lovely institute in our little town (not practical for you -- we're near the west coast and in Canada) but as the institute co-director who has watched many pre-Twinks pass through our program over the years, I just wanted to offer a few words of caution.

We offer a pre-Twinkler program for younger siblings of older students and local kids only. Because it seems almost cruel to have them here observing all this amazing music-making and Suzuki learning and to not allow them to participate. The pre-Twinkler program includes two core hours a day: a shared master class with three other students and a music enrichment class. The master class involves sharing an hour of mostly-individualized instruction with three other young students. The music enrichment class varies but recently it has been either percussion / rhythmic improv or movement / dance. Then there are all the additional things ... large-group play-ins, recitals to observe and participate in, social events -- usually an hour or two a day of optional but worthy events.

The thing is this: it's pretty intense for these kids. Many of them struggle to cope with it. It's a big deal for a 4-year-old to be immersed in new class formats with teachers and children and parents and expectations (of quiet observation) that are new to them. The large group events can be tiring and overwhelming. Some kids find it difficult to quickly establish a working relationship with a new teacher in the master class and aren't willing to participate fully, or even at all. The different pace and energy of the group classes can be hard for them to cope with -- even just small differences from what they're used to in their home program. Being away from home in new living circumstance, or commuting every day, eats away at their emotional reserves.

Not that an institute can't be a worthwhile experience for young children. My youngest participated as a 4-year-old and enjoyed herself a lot. But don't under-estimate the emotional and social challenges and the toll that will take on your little one.

Miranda


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## mysonsmama

Hi Miranda,

Sounds like very wise advice. I appreciate it. We have participated in a few group events outside our teachers community and I am quite on board with your thoughts. I was hoping for a fun setting with a couple hours of pretwinkler events per day. & obviously not solid hours. I noticed a pretwinkler 1/2 day summer camp which seemed fine. Just the local area seemed a bit blah for finding outside entertainments.

Thanks again for your input.


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## greencat

Any body from MDC going to Matsumoto Japan for the International Conference next year?


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## MichelleZB

I'm happy to see this tribe, although it hasn't been active for awhile! My husband and I are violinists by trade and started with the Suzuki method. Now we teach it! Good times.

Feel free to ask if you have violin-related questions. We'll be doing Suzuki with our son, who is now 7 months. So far, we're just listening to the recordings!


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## Bekka

We could rollcall or something! 

I have a 14 year old daughter playing in Book 6 Suzuki violin, also working on Meditation from Thais and Fandango, who also does Scottish fiddling for fun and composes. She's in the regional youth orchestra intermediate level and the advanced orchestra in school.

I also have a non-Suzuki 12 year old dd playing piano (conventional) and trombone (school).

My son, age 8, tried Suzuki violin and it was a poor match for him. He started "laid back" guitar a couple of years ago to good effect and we're sad his teacher moved to Jordan. The Suzuki guitar program didn't sound like a good fit for him.

My 6 year old dd is in Suzuki book 1 violin working on May Song. The bow distribution is giving her fits.

My 3 year old vacilates between wanting to play violin and playing flute (I found a teacher trained in Suzuki flute who doesn't have a studio right now; but I would love to get her to teach my little one when she is ready).

I am a student midwife right now, and being a book 1 Suzuki parent again is hard with 4 kids in public schools and a totally variable schedule. The minor blessing is that dd1 can help with her practices. Basically we do what we can. DD 1 started at age 3; dd3 started at age 5 b/c I wasn't ready sooner. Pretty much, we're trying to hang in there based on tuition; we've got a big tuition bill each month... It's tough. But she figured out a one octave scale all by herself and she's really motivated, so it was good timing and she is thriving.

That's what's going on musically here. We're a Suzuki and non-Suzuki family. I found with my own kids that the best teachers aren't always the Suzuki ones, and even the good ones don't always mesh with kids of certain personalities.


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## Bekka

The biggest fun is that my 14 year old can critique the playing on the Suzuki CDs by David Cerone or the other guy (Preucil?). She especially hates the non-emotive versions of Romantic era pieces.


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## Juuulie

Roll call is a great idea! I'd love to see this thread become more active. And wow Bekka, I will never complain again about having three kids doing different things. 

My 16yo is a rock n roll drummer so he doesn't count. ;-) He is doing jazz band at school this year for the first time. It is an amazing program and I'm very excited for him. I practiced with him ONCE, btw. Following the drum score was BY FAR the hardest thing, musically, that I've ever done in my life.

My 13yo daughter started Suzuki violin at age 6. Right now she is working on de Beriot Concerto in A minor (ugh! octaves!), Kreutzer & Schradiek, some unaccompanied Bach. Currently our biggest struggles are over her increasing independence. Which she does not want. She would rather have me tell her what & how to practice so that she can get mad at me, kwim?

My 9yo son also does Suzuki violin. He is just finishing up book 3. He also works out of Wohlfahrt & Schradiek, Barbara Barber bk 1, Dolflein, etc. With him the biggest struggle is getting him to slow down and CARE about details. He has a lot of native ability (perfect pitch, huge hands, loves to perform, etc.) but he is also ADHDish and I still have to remind him to keep his pinky on the stick. Frequently.

I grew up in a musical family but knew nothing about the Suzuki philosophy until my daughter and I stumbled into it. Our lives totally revolve around it now, and I know I am a way better parent because of it. The small fortune we pay for lessons? It is a tithe.


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## moominmamma

Fun to see this thread active again.

I have four Suzuki kids, was a Suzuki student myself, my mom a Suzuki teacher. I teach part-time myself. My sister and one brother are Suzuki teachers. My poor kids: they come by it honestly. All that rich Suzuki heritage aside, we live in a very rural area with no teachers nearby. My training is limited and my kids have been unwilling to work with me beyond age 11 or so. Things have changed in the past couple of years. My mom is moving back to her home town and will no longer be able to teach my kids. The senior kids have moved on. Living here my kids don't have much musically to inspire and sustain them. It's mostly just their mom... and them.

Dd18 is four days from starting her BMus in violin performance. She's working on the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto and the Paganini Caprices. She's amazing. She was basically self-taught from age 13 onwards, until this past year when she moved across the country to get regular lessons with a qualified teacher. Her ability just soared, and I'm sure in a university environment it'll continue along its current trajectory.

Ds15 is languishing teacher-less for the second year in a row. He's an advanced violist with musicality that just pours out of him, but although his heart is in music, he doesn't have the work ethic to match. So it's really impossible to justify the time and money it would cost to get him lessons.

Dd13 is teacher-less for the first time this year. She's a violinist, just barely post-Book-8. Her motivation has really suffered the past couple of years and her progress has stalled. She has been on and off with lessons for the past year, even with my mom here. Now it's off for good.

Dd9 is teacher-less now as well but she and I work reasonably well together, so I can continue to guide her. She's working on Meditation from Thais and beginning Suzuki book 7. She's also begun picking up viola, is working on alto clef reading, learning the Telemann Double at the end of viola Book 4. She's reasonably self-motivated right now. But other than her siblings, she's the most advanced string player by far around here (the other dozen are Books 1-4, mostly 1-2) so I think she may have a tough time as her older siblings' commitment to their music wanes.

I'm feeling a little sad about our prospects for the future here. The kids' musical lives would have been so much different if we'd lived somewhere that they'd had access to teachers at their level, other students at similar levels, youth orchestras, chamber music, etc. etc.. I'm sure they would be totally immersed in music, progressing like crazy, happy as heck to have that community. During summer institutes that's what it's like ... they truly wish life could be a Suzuki institute, or at least include teachers, and orchestra and other music kids. But it can't. 

Miranda


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## Bekka

Miranda, I sometimes find myself desperate for that speed of lifestyle... multiple orchestra rehearsals, and our church does Messiah every other year, guess what, this is the year, etc. and we hurtle madly toward the holiday season with concerts, now fundraising for school orchestra, etc. etc. ad infinitum and we all are basically a wreck by Dec. 15th. But I asked DD1 what she would do if she wasn't busy, and she said, I'd be bored. Shrug. What can we do. I wish she could ride her bike to the HS; but we're too far by a bit. I'm excited that tomorrow afternoon we have no activities at all. Of course, I could get called to a birth...


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## jgale

Thanks for the role call suggestion. I have a ds 8 who has done non-Suzuki piano for 3 years. It has been a total slog for the past year and after taking the summer off he is adamant that he doesn't want to continue. I would really like him to continue with an instrument and when I asked him what he'd like to play he said "French horn". I think that's a terrible idea because he has a fairly low frustration threshold but we live in Philadelphia where lessons in every instrument are available so we're going on Tuesday to meet with the registration coordinator at the settlement music school to discuss lessons

I have a dd6 who has been doing Suzuki flute since she was 3. She is in book one. Her teacher is taking the fall off so we will be checking out the flute offerings for her at settlement as well.

I also have a dd 3 who has been doing Suzuki flute for a year. She had learned to 'toot' on her sister's flute with totally incorrect mouth position so she basically spent the year trying to undo a bad habit. She has a tough personality and I wish we had waited until she was older to start an instrument. I may sign her up for a group fun class this fall if there is one available during her siblings' lessons

I also have a 15 month old and work 36 hours a week as a midwife (funny-2 midwives in this group!).

I find getting the practicing done a challenge!


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## Super Pickle

Hi, all. I'm glad to see this thread. I am about to start Suzuki violin with my 4 year old daughter. My older two boys started at ages 7 and 4 but we quit after a miserable 3 years because of a teacher mismatch and because i decided that the stress and the conflict that it brought into our family just wasn't worth it. The younger one hasn't touched a violin since (he takes traditional piano lessons, though); the older one tried out some different workshops and classes and eventually settled on laid-back traditional lessons at our house. We love our new teacher who comes to our house and she can't wait to start the Suzuki method with DD next week.

What would you all say are the essential ingredients for success in the program? I'm worried about my track record, my past "failure" as a Suzuki parent. On one hand, I feel like I failed because I let my kids drop out; on the other hand I feel I failed because i let the agony drag on for so long before I freed them.. I also feel like I failed because it was not an enjoyable experience and it was detrimental to our relationships, when I had been told it would deepen our relationship and build my children's character. It took a lot of healing after we quit to restore peace to our family. We won't be in the same program as before, so the stress of running around town right after school twice a week and being overscheduled will be eliminated; however, I am still wondering if practicing will pose the same problems. My boys started out enjoying practicing, but it turned into a daily conflict. If you have truly enjoyed the process, and you can honestly say that it has enhanced your relationship with your child, what do you think you did to nurture that? Why might I have been successful in other areas of parenting but not in music study? Thanks for your time and advice.


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## Qestia

I'm about to start Suzuki violin with my four year old daughter. I'm also enrolling my 7 year old son in conventional piano lessons. I was a good horn player through college, but didn't start any sort of lesson until horn lessons in 6th grade (and I started piano in 8th--way too late), and I can see how it held me back, so I want to give my kids the opportunity to be good musicians should they choose.My daughter has been actively asking to play violin (my preference would have been piano since we already have one and I have some clue about to play that!). I have no idea what to expect. I was so glad to find this thread!


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## jgale

Pickle, sorry to hear you had such a hard experience with Suzuki before. I feel like in our house practice sessions often have the potential to turn horribly contentious and I think because I have been reluctant to engage in fights and battles with my kids that they have not progressed very quickly (


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## ilovetchotchkes

Hi all! We're hopefully starting my son on suzuki in a few weeks. 
He's only 3 but he literally begs me daily to learn how to play the violin. I'm not expecting miracles, but if he loves it, then I'll be happy. I played for years but never learned suzuki.

Any advice on getting started with a really young kiddo?  I'm SUPER excited.


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## katt

Hi! I just found this thread and am not up to reading 450 posts. So, here's a quick intro.

My older DS, 6, has been playing Suzuki Piano for about 2 years now. He's got Go Tell Aunt Rhodie down. He's at group class right now as a matter of fact. He's also learning Iron Man, or at least part of it. He's REALLY excited about that.


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## MichelleZB

Yes: I have some advice! Take it a day at a time, and just do your best.

I have started listening to the recordings and doing now holds with my toddler. Good times!


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## MichelleZB

Yes: I have some advice! Take it a day at a time, and just do your best.

I have started listening to the recordings and doing now holds with my toddler. Good times!


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## Greenmama2

Ooh, I'm glad this thread has been resurrected. My 6 year old has just jumped up to a 1/4 size violin & is working through the minuets in book 1. Her progress is slow as she gets used to her new fiddle & we are keeping her practice sessions very short at the moment. My three year old has just started Suzuki piano. He likes it but isn't too enthused about practicing yet.


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## moominmamma

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Greenmama2*
> 
> My 6 year old has just jumped up to a 1/4 size violin & is working through the minuets in book 1. Her progress is slow as she gets used to her new fiddle & we are keeping her practice sessions very short at the moment.


How long has she been on the quarter? Has she changed sizes before? Does the quarter fit her properly? (It seems a mighty big size for a 6-year-old, but obviously I can't see her!) The reason I ask is that in my experience with my own four kids who have grown through a total of probably twenty different size-changes, it's never taken more than a few days for them to adjust. As a teacher I've found similarly: I'll give the go-ahead to change sizes at one lesson and by the next lesson the kids and I have often pretty much forgotten the issue of adjusting. Sometimes there's a bit of 4th finger or bow-on-highway attention that needs to be given, but it's pretty self-limiting.

If it's been more than a week or so and your dd is still feeling like the new violin is requiring some significant adjustment, perhaps it's either too big or needs some adjustments (chin rest, shoulder pad, bridge curve, eg.) to work well for her. Does her teacher have any suggestions?

Miranda


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## Greenmama2

She is fine now after two weeks. She borrowed a 1/4 from her teacher before we decided but I think it was perhaps it was a little lighter than the one we ended up buying and yes, she started on a 1/16 & moved to a 1/10 at almost five. We also bought a new shoulder rest but her teacher felt it wasn't deep enough for her shoulder so she is back to her old one. As for her size, she dances & is currently taking extra classes with 9 turning 10 year olds with no noticeable height difference. There is definitely some bow on highway attention needed, but her fingers are actually better as her 1/10 was really far too small.


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## MichelleZB

So you skipped from a tenth to a quarter? That might be why it took longer to adjust!

As long as he can bow to the tip without locking his elbow, it's an ok size.


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## Greenmama2

Yes, she did. After trying a 1/4 in her lesson it was obvious that a 1/8 wouldn't last long so we borrowed the 1/4 for a week to be certain. It's all fine now


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## Nightwish

Very excited to discover this thread!

We're currently looking for a Suzuki piano teacher for my 4 y/o dd. We tried the traditional method / teacher, but they started right away with reading music - one of her homeworks was to trace the treble clef, and she can barely scribble her own name. Not to mention that I have absolutely no knowledge of music, so I couldn't help her at all with her practice.

At least with the Suzuki method I can attend the lessons and learn with her. So I ordered the book and CD and hopefully we'll start in January. She talk about playing the piano, I think she misses it.

Another thing: we don't have a piano at home







. We were practicing on a small keyboard.

I have some questions for mamas of piano players: how do you help out with practice if you don't play the instrument yourself? (Or do you have any advice for me?)

And where did you buy your piano? We won't be able to buy a new one, but as we don't know anything about pianos, how do I make sure that the used ones are in working order?

I have been thinking of buying a keyboard, but I've read a lot of negative comments about them, especially from Suzuki teachers, so I wouldn't want to buy one, then having to buy a piano anyways.

I would also like to mention that ds also started Suzuki guitar when he was 4 and we had a very positive experience with the program.


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