# For those of you who never give consequences (punishments)



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

WHile I am debating the philosophies behind these and other choices on the other thread. I would really like some real life (you have actually had success with it youself, not read about it) examples about how this actually works.
I wonder if I am missing something about how it works. And I am having a hard time visualizing what it actually looks like to do this. SO I am going to give maybe 3 different discipline issues and if anybody has dealt with these in a way that felt satisfactory or at least caused some resolution, please share your story. Of course if you have had other scenarios, share those as well.
My understanding of GD with no punishment ever (as opposed to GD with last resort use of reasonable consequences) is certainly incomplete and I do not seek to debate with any of you on this thread. SO please share. (if you wanna debate too, the other thread is still going )

Ok so anyway:
The first time I ever used "timeout" on my now 3 year old was for food throwing.
We had already extinguished the behavior through explaining, having him help clean up etc. . . He already knew he wasnt allowed to throw food. He already had controlled this impulse for months before starting again.
If your child did this and no amount of your gentle explanations, suggestions, games, songs about being neat, rhyming ("heck no, we dont throw." LOL) reminding gently. You have been using all of your gentle tool kit for several weeks and the child is still throwing food.
What do you do? Is this a matter of acceptance? Do you try not to impose time limits as to when a behavior stops and just trust that it will eventually, meanwhile constantly wiping food off the walls and digging it out of the carpet? Keep going until it works?
Toy throwing or other violence as well. Say you have been using only GD techniques for weeks and the child has not chosen to stop.

Now for those of you with older children. If your older child willfully disobeys. Say they go to an unapproved home after school without permission (or worse after you have already said "no") There are no adults at this home. There is possibly drug use in the home, you dont know.
You have ALREADY explained to this child the dangers of spending time in this type of environment. You also have already explained how important it is to let mom know where you are at all times for safety reasons. You have discussed how it is not a good idea to be in an unsupervised home. YOu have explained to your child that whenthey do not come home from school you feel afraid they were kidnapped. What happens?

I really believe in GD. We dont yell, spank, shame, and make our primary goal the education of our children about what we expect and why. But it is my experience that children will occasionally "push the envelope" as far as it will go. And I would like to hear from parents who do not punish what they do when it reaches that point.

Any shared stories are appreciated.
Joline


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Oh my,...ummmm...I'm sure you'll get lots of good responses. I'll give it a quick go.
I'm a big believer in life being (way too) short. What matters most to me is my relationship with my children. I believe punishments of any kind set up an adversarial relationship between child and parent, which is the exact opposite of the kind I greatly desire. I also believe an adversarial parent/child relationship can ultimately put the child in greater danger down the road, as the child will learn to lie, be sneaky and drawn to peers who accept them (the kind of acceptance they should be getting at home).
Sheesh,...I'm already starting to drag this out...
Soooo, sure sometimes we hit moments similar to you described about the food/high chair... They don't happen often, but sometimes... But that's when my philosophy as a parent is best being exercised. It's easy to be "gentle discipline" when the going is good, or even only sort of good...but it really counts exactly during these occassional rough spells.
You really can't (should'nt try) to control another human being of any age. You can only control _yourself_. Your child desires a harmonious relationship just as much, if not even more, as you do. Believe the best about him/her... If a bad moment presents itself, express how you feel, acknowledge how your child feels, believe the best about him/her, and then _move on_. Life is way too short to meet trouble half way. You'll never regret being patient no matter how hard it is or how long it takes. Your relationship with your child is SO worth it.
Did that make any sense?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I thank you for your response. But that kind of explanation is kind of why I am confused in the first place. Sorry! LOL
Everythign I read is so much theory and so little actual practical advice.
I am understanding the theories "adversarial relationship" and "we can only control ourselves" this is all theory.
What does it look like. What do you do.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

If my 3 year old kept throwing food, I'd try to figure out why, first. Maybe he's enjoying the attention, and I'm not giving him enough one-on-one attention... maybe I've made it into a power struggle... maybe he doesn't understand that I'm serious about it, or he forgets. Those are all different problems, and need to be addressed differently.

I would probably start with something simple, like giving him very small amounts of food at a time - just a bite or two. Eating outside might be useful, too.

I also have no problem telling kids how their behavior makes me feel. At some point early on, I imagine I would have looked him in the eye and said in a steely voice, "I am tired of cleaning food off the walls. Food is for eating, not throwing." Sometimes it's time to cut the fun and games, IMO.

FWIW, "having him clean up" is a punishment, imo...

As far as an older child, the idea of "disobeying" isn't really part of our lexicon here, but I do talk with my daughter about good choices and safely things. Sometimes she does stupid things, though... like, about a year ago she and a friend were at a show (musical theatre), and at intermission they decided to go a mile away to a coffeehouse that was playing some music that night... at 10:30 at might... in a college town... and she was 11. I didn't see it as a wise choice, and I told her that, and she agreed that it hadn't been a good idea, in retrospect. We talked about other options, like calling me before she left and getting my opinion. In this case there weren't a lot of options, but sometimes there are.

And that was it. It didn't happen again.

My kid just doesn't do things she's agreed not to do - she keeps her word. In return, I try to find ways to help her do the things she wants to do. She does a lot of things many parenst would consider unsafe for a 12 year old, and spends a lot of time without adult supervision and with older teens, but I really do trust her. I think that's based on our relationship for the past 12 years, though. If you haven't lived this way from the start, your kids may not respond in the same way right away...

dar


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

All the scenarios you described above, I have never had to deal with...I will give you my worst case and what I DID do...
In the grocery store, dd was 4yo at the time. We didn't even get past the fruits and vegetables when major meltdown occured. My dd was SCREAMING! She wanted something and was not able to have it RIGHT NOW, kwim? So, I gently picked her up to leave, she grabbed the shelf with the bananas and pulled..yeah, bananas everywhere!
I pried her hand off the shelf, she is still screaming, and as best I could, brought her outside the store. She yelled, "I am going to pee on you!" At this point I was sitting on the bench with my arms around her, holding her in place, but not letting her hurt me or herself. She peed on me. The whole time I just kept telling her, "I love you. I love you soooo much. You are my daughter and I love you."
After much more screaming and passersby saying I needed to just spank her







, she finally just started sobbing. She turned and hugged me and said she was sorry for peeing on me and sorry for screaming in the store and outside. She said she was hungry and tired. So, we left and went home. We bathed and changed and ate and took a nap.

Since then, she has NEVER thrown a fit in a store again. I never once threatened her, I never once hit her, I just held her and told her I loved her. We never even spoke about it. It seemed like I had given her the freedom and space to see for herself what was okay behavior and what was not.

Just wanted to add: my dd is 9 yo, now.

I have many more stories...this one was the most extreme, in public one that I have so far :LOL Hopefully, it will be the ONLY one


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Quote:

If my 3 year old kept throwing food, I'd try to figure out why, first
yep.

Quote:

I think that's based on our relationship for the past 12 years, though. If you haven't lived this way from the start, your kids may not respond in the same way right away...
so true. the earlier you start, the better...from day one the best. but it's never too late.
it really is about trust. a child cannot truly trust a parent who punishes.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Thank you so much for your examples.

I cant wait to read more.
Dar, I am very impressed how comfortable you are with your 12 year old having so much freedom. I have a similar relationship with my now 13 year old. She has alwasy been very responsible and was always allowed much more freedom than her friends because she showed a lot of common sense.
She had a brief period due to skipping a grade and moving to a new peer group that really shook her up, and she stopped making wise decisions for a few months.
SHe is now back to her old self and I am grateful that nothing bad came of it.
Joline


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

_it really is about trust. a child cannot truly trust a parent who punishes._

I want so bad to not debate on this thread because I want to know so badly how things work. But it is really hard to NOT RESPOND to comments like this which are belief statements that I do not agree with at all, and which I cannot help to find offensive since they are in a thread started by a woman who obviously uses punishment when she thinks it is necessary.
I do believe that a parent can give their children consequences without losing an iota of trust. I can respect that some parents are not willing to risk it. However such things can be taken offensively when they are stated as fact rather than.
"I would be concerned my child would lose trust in me if I punished."
So can we please debate in the other thread and keep the theories there.

It is kinda counterproductive to insult the person you are trying to persuade.
Joline


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
At some point early on, I imagine I would have looked him in the eye and said in a steely voice, "I am tired of cleaning food off the walls. Food is for eating, not throwing." Sometimes it's time to cut the fun and games, IMO.


I am with Dar on this. A low serious/steely voice often works wonders. An I am not happy with your behavior demeanor tends to go a long way. As would not putting much food on at a time.

AS for the teen who "disobeys" I certainly have more "rules" than someone like Dar, but still no punishement. Instead they would get there the following statment:

"You know that you are not allowed to go to X's house. And you know why. You went there anyway. That was not an OK thing to do and I am disapointed that you would do that. Next time I expect you to follow our rules that you dont' go to X's house.

Oh and the steely voice still applies here.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
If you haven't lived this way from the start, your kids may not respond in the same way right away...

May be that's the key...

Can not think of anything similar to "food throwing issues" in DC's toddlehood, though let me give two examples with my teen (soon to be an adult) DS

We never had "curfews" or "unathorized" places established. All throughout his life we had talks and discussions on life in general, which included drugs, violence, sex, etc.,

When he was 16 (or maybe already 17, I don't exactly remember) he came from his friends birthday party and with "I am so very tired" went straight to bed. I did not think much of it, then next morning: "Mom, Dad, I need to talk to you" So we go to our "talking place". "I had alchohol at the party yesterday". I did not know what to feel - angry, because obviously he knows all the facts about him being too young, alchohol not being good for you, etc., OR proud, because I had never met anybody who would just go and confess to their parents like that.
We had a talk. Mostly it was him who was talking - appologizing, reassuring, explaining.
I did not see the reason for punishment, nor would I think that it would have done any good.
So we (DH and I) helped him "deal" with hang over and it has not happen for two years now.

Second one - fast forward two years. DS recently went to "the city" (San Francisco in our case) to hang out with his friends in the late morning. When he was not home by 9pm I started calling his cell, which went straight to his greating (that would mean one of two things - he either turned it off, or it got discharged)
By 11pm I was on the phone with DH who was on night shift
By 12:30am I was shaking and started dialing police when he walked in.
Then, I confess - I yelled "Do you know where I am calling now?" and in elevated voice told him that I was worried sick.
That was a first time in many years that I saw my baby cry. "Mom, I did not even REALIZE you would be worried. I am so sorry, I just got so involved! We were just dancing and having fun and had many friends there and ... <hug> - I was such a jerk for not having my phone charged!"

Again - I saw no reason for punishment, nor do I think it would have done any good.

He always charges his phone no when he expects to be gone for some time









One thing I realized though... No matter how strict, punitive or non-punitive parents are - there is no guarantee that DC will "turn out" exactly the way we want them to be. Nor is it my goal. My goal is - to teach my children as much as I can and the biggest lesson of all is that their family will always be there for them. Not with a "sentence", but with open arms and guidance and help.

Also, there is no magical way we as parents can save them from the evils of this world, no matter how much we want. We can educate, lead by example, and maybe (hoping here!) create open enough communication that kids WILL come and ask for advice (or be open to advice) when in doubt and may be we can steer them clear away from the danger

There is much to be added, I just had a "brain block" though :LOL

HTH and please don't take any "general" comments I made personally. They are not directed at you, just at the concept of punishment.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

For the 3yo, I'd probably just give TINY amounts of food at a time, possibly even resort to "feeding you like a baby" with the food out of his/her reach.

For the teenager, I'm not sure. My kids don't have that kind of freedom yet.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I do believe in consequences, which I do see different from punishments. I'm sure other people wouldn't. I don't use time-outs or other things that seem to be unconnected from the problem.

If my daughter was throwing food, at a non-toddler-baby age, I would say "I see you feel done, let's put the food up until you're ready to eat again. In our family, we don't throw food. You can throw your ball outside though, and food is for eating. " If she protested, I'd offer her the choice







food or throw a ball. I might well ask for help in picking up the food, although at three I don't know if I'd expect it. Toy throwing wasn't OK in our house either - I would put toys up because I was worried they'd be broken (i.e. toy time-out rather than the child







). To me, this is GD. I don't want anything hurt in my house!

With ignoring safety concerns, we do point out her choices and how they effect how we feel about trust. In your example of an older child and the going over to scaryfriendshouse issue, I guess I would pick them up at school (but I do have that option) for a little while because I'd be worried about it. We would talk a lot. I would probably share stories from my childhood about this issue. I would try to reconnect and find ways for the friend to come over to our house instead of going over there. I see a lot of parents do things like, take away the TV or grounding or something like this, I have a hard time imagining how this would work out in the end to bring the parent/child back into harmony and open communication. I would think there were other things going on in our relationship, for them to intentionally not listen.

Uh, I might make my kid neurotic though - I do trend towards the worrying rather than the angry in response to behavior. Ah well, talkative neurotic runs in the family, she nevah had a chance!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Dar's post reflects my answers on this very well.









I too have no problem stating how I am feeling to a child, and I have no problem hearing how they feel about stuff (even my behavior) either. It's OK to say what we feel at my house.

My kids are 14 and almost 12. They too keep their word generally speaking. We discuss matters of safety, and why something is or isn't a great choice/idea.They take the cell phone with them so they can be in contact. They have my close friends number memorized in case they need help and can't get ahold of me. Like Dar's Dd my kids have quite a bit of freedom that other kids their age often do not. Something like your example hasn't come up for us yet, but if it did we would just discuss it. I see no need for any punishment.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

With the 3 yr old, I would keep it low-key. I wouldn't have gotten into the songs and games etc. etc. I've found that simpler works better. When she threw food, I'd just ask if he was done eating--if "yes" then the throwing would stop because I'd remove the food. If "no" then I'd just remind him food is for eating, not throwing. If they're not going to eat it, I'd remove it and get them interested in something else.

With my older kids, we just talk. They tell me where they're going and I tell them where I'm going. If I'm concerned about a situation, we talk and either they see my point and change their plans, or we find a way that I can be comfortable with the plan. We don't have a "disobey" "unapproved" "permission" kind of vocabulary. And since we don't punish, they're not afraid to tell me what's going on and they don't feel a need to sneak or hide their activities. There's a mutual respect and we're not starting from a place where one person gives the orders and the other one is expected to obey.

There's only been one home that I was really uncomfortable with my kid being in. The parents are often not home and the older teen who's supposed to be supervising the younger kids usually is too busy partying (if she's even home) to be doing any supervising. My dd is a couple of years younger than the girls that she likes to visit in this house. Dd and I have talked about this and it turns out that SHE'S uncomfortable when the crowd of older teen boys shows up as well, so mostly she invites the girls to our house. (Dd is 10, the friends are 13 and the older kids are 18+) She visits them when a parent is home, or she'll visit them to play outside (they play basketball in front of the house) when the older boys aren't there.

I haven't had any "pushing the envelope" stuff, honestly, maybe because the envelope is fluid--or because we're always adjusting it...


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraeileen*
If my daughter was throwing food, at a non-toddler-baby age, I would say "I see you feel done, let's put the food up until you're ready to eat again. In our family, we don't throw food. You can throw your ball outside though, and food is for eating. " If she protested, I'd offer her the choice







food or throw a ball. I might well ask for help in picking up the food, although at three I don't know if I'd expect it. Toy throwing wasn't OK in our house either - I would put toys up because I was worried they'd be broken (i.e. toy time-out rather than the child







). To me, this is GD. I don't want anything hurt in my house!

Dar, Maya, does this seem like consequences? It seems that if discussed and handled in a "working with" as opposed to "doing to" sort of way, that this is pretty non-punitive. I'm new (sort-of) to the ideas of non-punitive parenting, so I need a little help. Thanks!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Food throwing- I'd offer less food. Maybe the child isn't hungry? Maybe he's done?

Toy throwing- I'd have toys that can be thrown in a safe place. Otherwise, if it seemed dangerous, i'd remove the toy after it was flung and offer something else, or redirect to a different activity. I don't think this needs a consequence or anything...just remove the dangerous toys. Toddlers throw things--it's part of the toddler thing. One day they are older and don't throw toys anymore...

I don't think i have particularly abnormal children, but since they are older- beyond all the food and toy throwing ages, they don't seem to do anything that needs consequences from me. I do have a couple in school, so I am thinking that what if they didn't do their homework or something, they'd have to deal with their teachers. They know I would rather they were hsers. Since they want school, they just do the stuff.

Once my teen daughter went to a friends house without telling me where she was going-- and there were no parents home and the teen sister was drinking with the teen boyfriend. But she came right home and told me. I was upset, but then we talked keeoing yourself safe . I didn't need to give a consequence, i just want her to have the skills she needs to remove herself from situations like that.

I just try to be honest with them. When they were little I tried to redirect them.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

from what you described in the other thread i would not view this as devience or misbehaving -- it is a normal regressive behaviour of a 3 year old with a new sibling.

i would not have made such an issue out of this. i would give him small amouts of finger food. i would offer to feed him with a spoon. i would try to find out why he was throwing food. but in this case, it seems to be that he is resorting to his 'babyish' behaviour -- he wants to be a baby again, to be taken care of, to have less responsibility. regressions like this happen at the time of stress (new sibling being fed with a spoon), and before major milestones.

i would ask him to help me clean up. i would not order him to clean up -- i would ask if he thought he could help me, and if not, i would not make any issue out of this either -- i would clean up by myself.

i would talk with him about needing to clean up after a mess, about not throwing food etc -- but in a matter of fact way, like a discussion while doing clean-up, without this being a bid deal.

i would spread a shower curtain under the table if i had carpets and the food was getting stuck in there.

i would not remind him at each meal time not to throw food -- it sounds like an invitation to do it; it also sounds like you don't trust him without reminders.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

It sounded to me like the OP wanted stories, not pointing out what she was doing wrong or right, but actual stories of what happened and what you did and how it turned out.
Not theories of what you think, but stories of actions and reactions to your actions.
Am I wrong, Johub?


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## kiwimutti (Mar 22, 2004)

nevermind,







Ithink maybe this didnt help. just me














(sorry)


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok a story.

My son was about 8 and we lived in a 4 plex apartment area, with several other 4 plexes near us. He often played with the other kids in the area usually out in the front of our apartment. We'd discussed that he would play in an area where I could see him. One day he wasn't out there, and I called for him. I went around the other 4 plex and he and a few other kids were way in the back and had not told anyone.

I said something like "This looks like a neat place to play. It's not someplace I can see you from our house though." He said something like "Oh, no it's not. I hadn't thought about it. We were looking for a better ramp spot." So we talked about it, and he we agreed on walkie talkies (he could communicate with me) and that we'd take turns going to the other to check in.

I never once considered punishing him for "disobeying" the stay where I can see you thing.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

First off, I want to say that I think it's great that you are asking for some stories so you can really understand the whole concept of how it works to not punish. With the society that we are raised in, consequences seem to be necessary. It took me a lot of reading, and a lot of thinking to really understand how one could go about NOT using consequences with their kids. It really is a hard concept to wrap your mind around at first!!!

This story is not mine, but a close, very gd friend of mine's.
She has a 5yo dd, and a 3.5 yo ds, who throws his food too. She gave them lunch one day, and left the room for a minute. Yep, she came back to food all over the room! Her first thought (she's been reading Kids Are Worth It) was that he has to *help* clean up the mess with her. But she wasn't going to force it- she didn't want it to be a punishment, just him helping to fix something he did, kwim? So she tried, and he said "no". (Her 5yo dd offered to clean it up herself lol) She tried some more explaining, and still got "no". So she stepped back, and thought for a minute. She ended up getting out the vaccuum and asking if he'd like to help by vaccuuming. He WANTED to do that! Of course, he spent most of the time vaccuuming his body, but he did help clean up his mess. Everyone was happy, and no one was *made* to do anything.
I guess my point was that sometimes if you step back, there are "outside the box" ways to do things in a way that everyone is ok with it.

In our case, my 1 yo drops food on the floor for the dogs. I just let him, because I give food to the dogs too. Now, I do put it on a plate, or put it in their mouth instead of just throwing it on the floor, but I dont' really expect ds to know that quite yet. But, this is different because it doesn't leave a mess that I have to clean up later, so it really doesn't negatively affect me if he does put food on the floor. (our dogs are great cleaners!!)
So I guess, that's a case of looking for the reasons that he's doing something, rather than simply focusing on the behavior.

I don't have any other btdt experience, seeing as how my ds is 1yo, and I can't expect as much of him as you can of a 3yo. Just thought I'd share what I know


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Ok a story.

My son was about 8 and we lived in a 4 plex apartment area, with several other 4 plexes near us. He often played with the other kids in the area usually out in the front of our apartment. We'd discussed that he would play in an area where I could see him. One day he wasn't out there, and I called for him. I went around the other 4 plex and he and a few other kids were way in the back and had not told anyone.

I said something like "This looks like a neat place to play. It's not someplace I can see you from our house though." He said something like "Oh, no it's not. I hadn't thought about it. We were looking for a better ramp spot." So we talked about it, and he we agreed on walkie talkies (he could communicate with me) and that we'd take turns going to the other to check in.

I never once considered punishing him for "disobeying" the stay where I can see you thing.

So, did it work? Has he 'disappeared' on you since? Does he actually use the walkie talkies?

I ask, because I was given a pair of walkie talkies, but haven't used them for fear my children would think it was safe to go even further away and if they screamed for help, I would not know where they were, kwim?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
So, did it work? Has he 'disappeared' on you since? Does he actually use the walkie talkies?

I ask, because I was given a pair of walkie talkies, but haven't used them for fear my children would think it was safe to go even further away and if they screamed for help, I would not know where they were, kwim?

It worked well! We had a couple times of forgetting when it was his turn to check in (he had a watch but would forget to check it until it was too late because he was so involved in playing) so we decided that a watch that beeped when we needed it to would be great. It was a great solution for us.







He's 14 now, and we sometimes still use walkie talkies or he just takes a cell.

I think discussion about how far away to go is important, walkie talkies or not. We asked Ds to come tell us if he was considering going anywhere else so that I could see where he was talking about.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
... actual stories of what happened and what you did and how it turned out.


I was having trouble thinking of an example, so I asked my oldest for help. He pointed out that he doesn't get punished, so I tried to explain what you were looking for by using Johub's example (child forbidden to go to friends house but went anyway.) He actually laughed and said, "I don't think you've ever forbidden me to do anything!"

So...my point is, that by talking about things and working out arrangements that everyone is comfortable with, we avoid the whole issue of consequences/punishments, whatever. The closest thing that ds could come up with as an example was about 5 years ago when he was still in school and he got really angry about some homework assignment. He didn't want to do it, I said fine, but reminded him that there would probably be consequences from his teacher the next day. He kicked his bedroom door in anger and put a hole in it. I didn't even have a chance to get angry when he began apologizing and saying that he'd pay to replace the door. We talked a LOT about the problems at school that led to the anger and we resolved that, but I didn't feel there was any need for punishment over the door. He felt bad, he knew he lost control and he helped (financially and with labor) to replace the door. Punishment wouldn't have accomplished anything. (That incident was very out of character for him--he's never been violent before or since.)

There have been other things--little things--like, I went out and asked dd to fold the clothes while I was gone. She agreed, but when I got home, the clothes were still in a heap. I just mentioned, "I thought you were going to fold." and she gave a







and a "OH! Sorry! I got involved and forgot." Then she got up and folded them. No big deal.

Oh, another time dd went down to the park (a few doors down) to play. I knew she went, but when I went to look for her to see if she wanted dinner, she wasn't there. A few minutes later, she turned up at the house, saying she and a girlfriend went for a walk. I explained that I'd gotten a little nervous when she wasn't where she said she'd be, and asked how she'd feel if she expected me to be someplace and I wasn't there. She realized that it could cause worry and agreed that she would tell me if she was going someplace other than where I knew her to be. It's never been a problem since.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

For food throwing I used to just give a bite or 2 at a time. And mealtime would be over when the food throwing got serious. I think the "why" question is important -- my food thrower didn't like being stuck in a chair for long. I found it easier to pop bites of food into his mouth as he kept himself "busy" around the house or the yard.

We also got a dog -- I never clean food off the floor or walls! And the kids learned *fast* not to encourage the dog to beg by feeding him from the table.

For toy throwing -- again - Why is he doing it?
If it is a simple need to throw -- I would (and I did) redirect to soft toys.
If it is out of boredom, lonliness, or frustration -- then I would either get down on the floor and play with him, or find another child (sibling) to do so. Sometimes little ones need someone to guide them through constructive play before they know that it can be fun. I would also question if they are having too much TV time. I've notice that creative play deteriorates into destructive and random play when they have too much TV.... they temporarily "forget" how to be constructive with their toys and games.

As far as an older kid being disobedient....... well, my oldest is about to turn 9, which is still pretty young. I always pick him up at school, or I arrange to have a friend's mom pick him up -- in which case I always check out the home situation first. I imagine I'll continue doing this as long as I feel he needs it.

Even at 9 yo -- "obedience" is not a real issue. We think and relate to him more in terms of "cooperation" and "communication." We'd like to know what is going on in his life and in his head. We try to make sure its easy for him to allow that and we consider it a privilage. If he felt the need to be "sneaky" then I think we'd have to examine our approach more carefully.


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
"obedience" is not a real issue. We think and relate to him more in terms of "cooperation" and "communication." We'd like to know what is going on in his life and in his head.









:

I keep thinking about this thread...and I'm trying to figure out how to word this clearly...but, living without punishments requires us to live without the concept of crimes (or defiance) as well. (At least in our family.) I understand the need to hear examples of how this works, and I've been annoyed at myself for not being able to come up with a bunch of examples. Finally, it dawned on me--I don't think in terms of wrong-doings or discipline issues. Everything is either a teachable moment ("When you left your drink on the floor, the dog knocked it over and made a mess--let's clean it up and put your next drink on the table instead.") or, it's an issue of conflicting desires that need to be worked out. (My youngest wants to go to the store alone--I think he's too young. Rather than forbid it, I suggested he go with his older sibling, an idea which he liked.)

So we don't think in terms of "My child didn't do his chores, therefore he's grounded." but instead we'd point out the impact it had on others when he didn't do something that he agreed to do. Or, we'd try and find a way to help him remember to do what agreed to do...

I'm





















but: what Mamaduck said


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Mamaduck - your post reminded me of a great quote. I don't know who said it, but it's "Disobedience is only a problem when obedience is a goal." My daughter is only 3 so this isn't much of an issue yet, but I don't want her to do what I say simply because I told her to do something at any age.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
Mamaduck - your post reminded me of a great quote. I don't know who said it, but it's "Disobedience is only a problem when obedience is a goal." My daughter is only 3 so this isn't much of an issue yet, but I don't want her to do what I say simply because I told her to do something at any age.

That was my quote









http://www.naturalchild.org/quotes/2004.html#April

I kind of like being sandwiched between Carl Rogers and Fred Rogers...

Dar


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

My dd is WAY challenging, and even with a fluid and evolving envelope, she pushes the edges quite frequently. For example:

she asked to go play at the house across the street. I said no prob! When I went over there to pick her up for dinner (about an hour later) she wasn't there. Later the story unfolded that she had told the dad there that she was going with their son to another girls house in the cul-de-sac around the corner. Pretty safe and all, but I had no idea where she was, and he had gone out before I got over there, so only the mom was there, and she honestly wasn't sure that my dd had gone with her ds to the other girls house! So we talked about why it wasn't ok to go over with out her talking to me (on the phone or in person) so that I wouldn't worry. Still happens, I still reinforce it without punishment. She always feels bad afterwards. I'm hoping one day it'll sink in far enough to actualize results before action...

On another thought, she has endured (and I don't use the word lightly) consequences for some of her decisions that were TOTALLY out of control. Ie: she rode ahead on a family bike ride to the point where we couldn't see her at all and never did encounter her at all again before getting home, about a mile and a half. She crossed major roads, etc with out any adult supervision. Now I did mention to her that I was pleased she had made it safely home, but that her behaviour was NOT what I considered ok for her own safety and we talked about why (again). Later that afternoon we were going to walk the dog around the block, I walk, she ride, and she rode her bike right INTO the dog (who has bad hips). I was FURIOUS! Really, it was inconsiderate and thoughtless of her. She just didn't watch where she was going. The dog was standing there peeing on a bush - on our own property - and she just didn't look. At that point, I told her that if she wanted to come with on the walk she'd have to put the bike away and walk with us. She totally refused. I could tell that she was kind of tired, but there was still no reason for her to be so out of control. I asked her if she wanted to stay home instead and she said no, she wanted to ride the bike. I said that wasn't an option. She dropped the bike in the yard and stormed off into the house. I walked the dog and baby around the block, and almost back to home, I hear her yelling "mom mom mom" from behind me. I turn and she's running, and clearly has been running the whole way around the block. So I waited and she's all tearey and sad and mad and tired and panting; she told me she'd packed her bag and was ready to leave. When we got to the driveway I saw a note. It read "Der mom. I'm runing away. forever. sined R." Well, I was pretty sad about it. I asked her if she was SURE she really wanted to go away forever, 'cause I'd miss her terribly, and it would be awful for her to miss out on all the great family stuff we would be doing this summer etc., and she was just hopping mad, still, and called me and her brother names... clearly something was pushing her buttons, and it wasn't really me. So we went upstairs and packed her bag together (which contained 3 dresses, 7 pr of tights, and no undies LOL). When she was all packed I asked her if it would be ok if we gave her good stuff to charity, rather than throw it away, and she just BURST into tears and it all came tumbling out. We had a good cry together, and she came around. No punishment (other than no bike for the rest of the day, which was fine with her by then).

I am FAR from the perfect GD mama,but I do try. I think in every scenario there are choices. You need to give yourself a moment (even if it means cleaning up a bit more oatmeal or hearing protestations from a flinging toddler) to collect your thoughts so that you can process the situation and come up with solutions to THAT situation. My kid did the drop it on the floor game for a while, but it wore out quickly once she didn't have anything left on her tray to drop. She once even resorted to taking food OUT of her mouth to drop (LOL). I just told her that when she does that, it's a signal to me that she's done eating, because eating time can be fun but it's not about throwing food or making a horrible mess. She never helped me clean that stuff up, but she was way little (like under 2). By the time she was 2.5 or 3 she was over that stuff - I guess if she'd reverted to doing it again I'd have to assume something was pushing her to go there. New sib, problem at preschool, constipation, sleep problem, etc. This is a WAY HARD job, 'cause it is thinking on your toes like crazy. My best rec. is to give yourself those moments when you are able to think about what's happening like the adult in the situation, rather than the victim. It does help me









Good luck! Andy


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

"Disobedience is only a problem when obedience is a goal."
Obedience used to be our goal....AND let me tell you how much happier we are since we ditched that whole deal.....

What a weight off, and what an improvement in our relationship with our children....and we are still feeling like we are making baby steps with the not punishing mentality...

for example....our children used to be disrespectful to their toys, they would leave them in a mess and break things...instead of punishing them....we decided that through a series of events in our lives our children (and ourselves) were left feeling like we had very little value....as a result, they didn't place enough value on theirselves or their things....

Our solution was to show them in every way possible that they were valued. We built them their own bedrooms that are totally awesome....and we are decorating them....and they are organizing their rooms and keeping them clean, and we are having less and less of a problem with them disrespecting their stuff.

It is the opposite of an obiedience mentality....in that if my child is throwing a fit, I will hold her and not let her alone with her big emotions and help her get through by talking to her. Or the "trouble maker" is usually getting more understanding, communication, and listening from the parent...not punishment. More love, more attention to the one who is needing it...more time is spent finding what their needs are and meeting them than thinking of a good punishment and implementing it....

Not that I wouldn't speak sternly if someone was throwing food. I would definetely let them know what my feelings were on making a mess, that it was not acceptable to me....and I wouldn't have a problem asking kids to clean up their own messes. That is what we are working on now. I don't want to raise a bunch of rude, disrespectful kids. They can clean up after themselves....I don't want to clean up after them....and I tell them how it makes me feel when they just leave a mess, it makes me feel disrespected.

Recently DD age 12 had a party and some of her friends were in her new room and playing on her hanging bed....somehow some dents got put in the wall....DD's response was that she was never going to have a party with "boys" anymore because they were disrespectful to her room and put dents on her wall. She was upset about it, and upset with herself that she let or may have encouraged it to happen by using the hanging bed as a surf board and standing on it...there was no need to punish. DD is just sick about the dents....

Recently, my dh went back to punishing....two children were home alone and one of them called 911 (a hang up call)....they wouldn't admit who. Dh grounded them both from the phone for a month....this punishment was a complete disaster. It just made each of them hate each other as they blamed each other for getting punished....It hurt their relationship. It was really sad...Our preteen couldn't talk on the phone for a month, and she lives on the phone....so this just made her hate her brother, who is probably the one who made the call. He never uses the phone, so this was really unfair. I tried to tell dh that this punishment stuff really sucks and I think he saw it, but he just said that "I'll bet no one ever calls 911 again" and I said "but, yeah, at what price, at the cost of their relationship??" UGGGH...these little things happen though, and after you get out from under the punishment mentality over time you will see the benefits and embrace it more and more...at least that is how it is happening with us.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

For the food throwing: because this is an older child and not a baby, and this is not a "too young to know" issue, I would consider it a cry for help, a symptom if you will, of a bigger issue underneath. Someone mentioned a new sibling. That's a great example. So while I would restrict how much food she had, ask her to help me clean it up, tell her I was not happy about the mess...I would also be approaching it from the "ground up" and trying to find the real reason underlying the behaviour. Cure the disease, not the symptoms.

With an older child I would engage them in discussions along the lines of "How to Talk..." and "Parent Effectiveness Training". This is a two-way communication style, like Imago Dialogue if you are familiar with Harville Hendrix. Problem solve together, get the kid to be in on the "solution", approach it together as a team.

None of the "issues" we've faced have ever lasted more than a couple of weeks using this non-punishment, GD approach. Lately, however, we've been greatly challenged by DD hitting and pushing over DS. It has been going on for weeks, and we think there are many causes behind it. But during the course of this we (DH and I) somehow lost our way (and there's been alot of stress on my part and my coping skills have been sorely compromised lately). The more we moved towards traditional punishment, scolding...the worse it got. The more we keep our cool and approach it from a different angle (is she getting enough one-on-one time with each of us? for example) the better it gets. It's been our first real challenge as parents, and all I'm learning from it is how much better things are when we get rid of the punitive attitude, it's much better for everybody.


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

One anecdote that comes to my mind... When my sister was somewhere between 5 and 8, she would slide off the chairs/benches at restaurants under the table. Mom didn't want her under there so she made up this thing about a dogcatcher coming to get her. When she said that she thought she saw the dogcatcher to get all the dogs from under the tables, my sister would jump back up into her chair.

I also remember that my sister would lapse into baby talk (when she was 3 or 4). Mom would remind her that she was a big girl now. IF my sister persisted, my mom would suggest then, that she must be a baby and so she had to go to bed (because babies sleep more than big girls). My sister would talk in her age-appropriate manner then.

At the mall, Mom would have us walk where she could see us... if we took off, she'd catch us and then hold our hands. So our choice was to walk freely near Mom or walk with Mom holding our hand (she had a tight grip so it was always better to stay near!).

We ALWAYS got time outs for not-so-perfect behavior - only we would be the ones to decide when the time out ended. I find myself doing it now when I'm irritated with life - I go to my sewing room and pout and when I'm ready to deal with things, I return to the family.

Mom used Dreikur's methods (see Children: The Challenge as an example of his work) first in her classroom (she was a teacher) and then she applied those methods to her disciplining at home.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

These stories are really helpful. Thanks to everyone for sharing!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bluets*
Mom didn't want her under there so she made up this thing about a dogcatcher coming to get her. When she said that she thought she saw the dogcatcher to get all the dogs from under the tables, my sister would jump back up into her chair.

 This is not something I would ever, ever do to a child. It's dishonest, and it's frightening.









Quote:

I also remember that my sister would lapse into baby talk (when she was 3 or 4). Mom would remind her that she was a big girl now. IF my sister persisted, my mom would suggest then, that she must be a baby and so she had to go to bed (because babies sleep more than big girls). My sister would talk in her age-appropriate manner then.
But why would it be bad for her to talk in a more baby type voice anyway? At 3 and 4 that is still awfully close to baby-hood. I can't figure out why this would be something that needs to be stopped, so much so that a parent would have to semi-threaten a bedtime in order to end it.

Quote:

We ALWAYS got time outs for not-so-perfect behavior -
Expecting perfect behavior is the first problem lol!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Finally, it dawned on me--I don't think in terms of wrong-doings or discipline issues. Everything is either a teachable moment ("When you left your drink on the floor, the dog knocked it over and made a mess--let's clean it up and put your next drink on the table instead.") or, it's an issue of conflicting desires that need to be worked out.
Yeah - Joan -- IMO switching from punishment to GD requires a mental paradigm shift first. Otherwise its like talking apples and oranges.

Cook quote Dar! And I had to read the Fred Rogers quote too, which promptly made me bawl.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

That's cool that it's your quote, Dar! It's become something of a mantra for me


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Me too. I love Dar's quote. And I get to know Dar IRL which is awesome!!!!!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Everythign I read is so much theory and so little actual practical advice.
I am understanding the theories "adversarial relationship" and "we can only control ourselves" this is all theory. What does it look like. What do you do.
I think discussions like this quickly turn to theory because it's not a parenting style where you can say "If X happens do Y." It can help to remind yourself that you don't want to control your kids, but to help them to control themselves.

Quote:

...You have been using all of your gentle tool kit for several weeks and the child is still throwing food. What do you do? Is this a matter of acceptance? Do you try not to impose time limits as to when a behavior stops and just trust that it will eventually, meanwhile constantly wiping food off the walls and digging it out of the carpet? Keep going until it works?
Toy throwing or other violence as well. Say you have been using only GD techniques for weeks and the child has not chosen to stop.
I have four kids and this has never been a problem (another reason it is difficult not to lapse into discussion of theory). Once or twice someone has thrown a ball or other toy in the house. I just point out to them that it seems dangerous to me, a lamp might get broken. Then I suggest a better place to throw a ball or that maybe they'd like to roll the ball on the floor. If that didn't work I would try to figure out why. Maybe they want my attention. maybe this has become a power struggle. Then I would deal with the root issue.

Quote:

Now for those of you with older children. If your older child willfully disobeys. Say they go to an unapproved home after school without permission (or worse after you have already said "no") There are no adults at this home. There is possibly drug use in the home, you dont know.
You have ALREADY explained to this child the dangers of spending time in this type of environment. You also have already explained how important it is to let mom know where you are at all times for safety reasons. You have discussed how it is not a good idea to be in an unsupervised home. YOu have explained to your child that whenthey do not come home from school you feel afraid they were kidnapped. What happens?
I would never call any behavior "willful disobedience." I feel like that implies the child was intentionally being a "bad" kid. I don't think that kind of attitude ever does any good. I always assume they are trying to do the right thing, but sometimes they screw up (just like we all do), or their idea of the "right thing" doesn't match ours. One time my husband went out with some co-workers after work. He told me he'd be home around 10:00. He didn't get home until closer to 1:00! I was so worried. I thought he might be dead in a ditch and if not it was inconsiderate of him not to call and tell me he was going to be late. When he got home he told me he was having fun and lost track of time, he didn't want to call me because he figured I was alseep and didn't want to wake me. Now that he knows how I feel he always (well almost) calls if he's going to be late. I didn't even need to ground him


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I was thinking everything UnSchoolinMa said about Bluets post.
I think the point that bluet was making was that there are ways to work with your children without punishing.
But those techniques just left me feeling a little funny. kwim?

Becky


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

_This story is not mine, but a close, very gd friend of mine's.
She has a 5yo dd, and a 3.5 yo ds, who throws his food too. She gave them lunch one day, and left the room for a minute. Yep, she came back to food all over the room! Her first thought (she's been reading Kids Are Worth It) was that he has to *help* clean up the mess with her. But she wasn't going to force it- she didn't want it to be a punishment, just him helping to fix something he did, kwim? So she tried, and he said "no". (Her 5yo dd offered to clean it up herself lol) She tried some more explaining, and still got "no". So she stepped back, and thought for a minute. She ended up getting out the vaccuum and asking if he'd like to help by vaccuuming. He WANTED to do that! Of course, he spent most of the time vaccuuming his body, but he did help clean up his mess. Everyone was happy, and no one was *made* to do anything.
I guess my point was that sometimes if you step back, there are "outside the box" ways to do things in a way that everyone is ok with it._

But the real question is did he continue to do it next time?


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momoffour*
.
I have four kids and this has never been a problem (another reason it is difficult not to lapse into discussion of theory). Once or twice someone has thrown a ball or other toy in the house. I just point out to them that it seems dangerous to me, a lamp might get broken. Then I suggest a better place to throw a ball or that maybe they'd like to roll the ball on the floor. If that didn't work I would try to figure out why. Maybe they want my attention. maybe this has become a power struggle. Then I would deal with the root issue. I would never call any behavior "willful disobedience." I feel like that implies the child was intentionally being a "bad" kid. I don't think that kind of attitude ever does any good. I always assume they are trying to do the right thing, but sometimes they screw up (just like we all do), or their idea of the "right thing" doesn't match ours.









Lol then you have never met my daughter who afterwards actually said "I dont know why I did it. I think I just WANTED to be bad for once."


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I thank you for all of your responses.
Between this thread and the other and some reading I have been doing I have decided that traditional GD, (Dr Sears STyle) is still the way to go for our family. (as opposed to GD Alfie Kohn or Anthony Wolf style)
I used to think that GD but keeping the possiblity of consequences as a last resort (meaning "almost never") and GD witn no consequences ever were very closely related. Just one step apart.
I have now learned that they are indeed two very different outlooks on life, and only resemble each other in the GD techniques used, but not in the deeper theory.
It is almost like religion I suppose because it is based so deeply in our belief systems about our role as parents, our childrens needs from us and what our expectations are.
Again , thank you for sharing I have learned so much.

Joline


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I respect your decision, and fwiw, I think you seem like a very caring, patient mommy (from other posts)








But what I wanted to comment on was this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
Lol then you have never met my daughter who afterwards actually said "I dont know why I did it. I think I just WANTED to be bad for once."

I think children often have no idea WHY they did something. My first thought was that she was repeating what she' heard there. Someone's told her certain actions were bad, or that she was being bad when she did certain things. So when asked "why?" that was what she came up with. It seems to me that it would be reasonable to assume that's not the *real* reason. kwim?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I have decided that traditional GD, (Dr Sears STyle) is still the way to go for our family. (as opposed to GD Alfie Kohn or Anthony Wolf style)
I used to think that GD but keeping the possiblity of consequences as a last resort (meaning "almost never") and GD witn no consequences ever were very closely related.


Not sure what you mean by this. Wolf does believe in allowing consequences. Like taking away the means of misbehavior. (e.g. Taking away the metal truck you have been throwing until I am sure you understand that throwing it is dangerous, or "I will turn off the TV if you guys are going to sit here and argue about what program to watch until you can agree on what to watch becuase the arguing is driving me nuts" or holding a child so that they can't run in the street and get harmed). He does not believe in punishment which is doing something to a child in order to cause suffering to them as a result of bad behavior ("you guys can't watch any more tv today becasuse you were fighting about it." or "you threw the truck at your sister, so now I am not going to take you to the toy store like you wanted." "since you ran in the street, I am going to take away your toy diansaur, dinasaurs are for big boys and only babies run in the street").

There is a difference between consequences and punishment.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Certainly there is a difference.
Regardless I am sure that either Kohn and Wolf would agree that somethign like time out is a punishment.
I agree that this is a punishment but in my view of my job as a parent punishments such as this are sometimes (however not often) warranted.
I dont know anything about WOlf but what was posted in these recent threads. I read a quote that he believes punishment is morally wrong.
Regardless of how Similar Kohn and Wolf are on there definitions of "consequences" or "punishments"
Their versions of GD are different from Sears for example.
JOline


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

johub said:


> Certainly there is a difference.
> Regardless I am sure that either Kohn and Wolf would agree that somethign like time out is a punishment./QUOTE]
> 
> Nope you are wrong. Wolf believes wholeheartedly in time outs. He is NOT AP.
> ...


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*

Nope you are wrong. Wolf believes wholeheartedly in time outs. He is NOT AP..

Oh hey now, I agree with everything you've said but this. After all, Sears believes in Time-outs, but I can't imagine him being called not AP. I read the Wolf book last night, it seems pretty gentle to me. Then again, maybe I have easy standards - anything not entitled "Smackdown: You VS your Kid, Winner takes ALL!" or written by anyone with the last name of Ezzo, Pearl, Dobson, or any of those Nanny Women is pretty much AP to me.

I think the honest truth is that these are all rather small things...I don't do time outs, but do I mind my daughter to playing with kids who do have them? Not at all. Would I befriend a woman because she did time-outs? Absolutely. Do I mind my daughter being babysat at a house where children are routinely physically punished (spankings, hittings, etc) or verbally abused (You little...)? Yes, very much. I would take anyone here as babysitters, any day!

Just don't praise my child, for goodness sakes.







I kid, I kid!


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraeileen*
anything not entitled "Smackdown: You VS your Kid, Winner takes ALL!"









:







:







:


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraeileen*
Oh hey now, I agree with everything you've said but this. After all, Sears believes in Time-outs, but I can't imagine him being called not AP. I read the Wolf book last night, it seems pretty gentle to me.


Oh, he's very gentle and morally opposed to punishment.

But I don't think he's AP (Attachment Parenting) because he believes that separtion between parent and child is an important thing in teaching children how to handle bad feelings about small things, small disapointments (for large things he absoultely believes children need all of the support they can get from their parents. )

He also believes that parents should defintitley seperate from children at night (he does not address issues with babies so it is not clear if he is against co-sleeping in infancy).


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

A-ha, gotcha. I must have missed that part - as I pointed out, I can have selective comprehension of some things, I'll have to look over it again.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

maya44 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *johub*
> ...


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

I guess I will just have to read him if he can be "morally opposed to punishment" and in favor of time out at the same time.
And, I do agree that the best use of time out is to get a child who is driving you nuts out of your face so you can calm down and avoid doing something worse like yelling or getting angrier and angrier.
We usually also have open ended time out.
("WE dont cry at the dinner table. If you are not ready to eat you can go sit on your bed until you are ready. " He is usually back and happily eating in less than 30 seconds. I doubt he actually makes it to his bed even! LOL)
(oh and before I get jumped on, he is not bleeding or anythign just crying because he thinks he doesnt want what we are having for dinner, even though it always contains at least 1 thing he likes)
Joline


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
I guess I will just have to read him if he can be "morally opposed to punishment" and in favor of time out at the same time.
And, I do agree that the best use of time out is to get a child who is driving you nuts out of your face so you can calm down and avoid doing something worse like yelling or getting angrier and angrier.
We usually also have open ended time out.
("WE dont cry at the dinner table. If you are not ready to eat you can go sit on your bed until you are ready. " He is usually back and happily eating in less than 30 seconds. I doubt he actually makes it to his bed even! LOL)
(oh and before I get jumped on, he is not bleeding or anythign just crying because he thinks he doesnt want what we are having for dinner, even though it always contains at least 1 thing he likes)
Joline


You would I think LOVE Anthony Wolf.

He, like me, is morally opposed to punishment which he (and I) define as "actions take for the purpose of imposing suffering on someone for misbehavior."

He like me has no problem with imposing cosequences to remove the means of misbehavior. And he believes that time outs are beneficial so long as no time requirement is involved, for the reasons you stated.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Well I would agree that any action calculated to cause suffering would by my book be immoral.
I have never considered punishment to be that. However in thinking I suppose some do use punishment in that way.
Perhaps my definition of punishment is just different.
It sounds like maybe he separates "punishment" and "consequences" but many just lump them together.

Interesting. I was affronted at first about the "all punishments are immoral" but perhaps I have a different working definition of punishment than this man does.
Perhaps I will read him after all.
THanks.
Joline


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Mightily enjoying this thread!!



johubBut the real question is did he continue to do it next time?[/QUOTE said:


> And what if he did? Someone here had a great point. Why do we expect behavior guidance to be any different than other skills? No child has learned the ABCs after hearing the song one time; no child had learned to tie their shoes after being shown one time; they just don't learn new skills after one shot. They practice and practice and practice. So why would you expect a child to 'get it' just because you told them one time how to react to a situation. First, they learn best by being shown. Second, one time is not enough.
> 
> And the real question, for us, is not whether they do it again, but if they still feel loved and respected after they make a mistake or react in a way that is unpleasant for us.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
Mightily enjoying this thread!!

And what if he did? Someone here had a great point. Why do we expect behavior guidance to be any different than other skills? No child has learned the ABCs after hearing the song one time; no child had learned to tie their shoes after being shown one time; they just don't learn new skills after one shot. They practice and practice and practice. So why would you expect a child to 'get it' just because you told them one time how to react to a situation. First, they learn best by being shown. Second, one time is not enough.

And the real question, for us, is not whether they do it again, but if they still feel loved and respected after they make a mistake or react in a way that is unpleasant for us.

Well because for me the point IS that the behavior stop reoccurring.
What that mom did is similar to what I did 50 times before deciding to try somethign new.
What would this mom do if it continued to happen? Just happily continue to clean it up 50 more times encouraging the child to willingly help?

So when I asked for examples of what has been done that worked. I really meant, what has helped the child internalize the expectation that the behavior stop altogether.
Discipline isnt only about how you respond in the moment. It is about
how you teach your child to not do it again.
Yeah for this mom for gently getting her child to help her clean it up.
But if the child did not learn not to throw food from this experience, then it really wasnt discipline so much as simply cleanup.

So no, I do not expect a child to "get it" after one gentle reminder.
However if a child knows they should not do it , and is capable of enough impulse control to not do it. How many times do we just clean it up?

I have no doubt that my children can feel loved and respected and learn not to throw food at the same time. I really dont see it as an either/or proposition.

Joline


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

joline, this is a v. interesting thread and it made me really question myself. and i realised my discipline policy was not set by me but how my dd is. i dont like punishment (agian this is not black and white for me but has lots of grey areas) and i will try my best not to use it but i would if that was the last resort.

for me my discipline style was partly based on what i was comfortable with, and what my dd was comfortable with. many of her behaviours are age specific. and so i dont ever try to punish those but try using humour with her.

i have been talking to her since she was a baby. setting limits right from day one. descibing why i was telling no and what was so dangerous about things. i repeated and repeated. one of the reason's why i think i didnt have to use punishment is because perhaps i gave her a lot of freedom to fulfill her curiosity so she never had to cross the line. things like repeating a million times 'u may jump on the couch but u have to follow these rules otherwise this is what might happen to u and then mommy is going to be v. v. sad' she noticed emotions really early and seemed to want to know how people would feel. but if u dont follow these rules u cannot jump. so she would intially say for a handful of times try to break the limits. and i would say oh u gotta stop now here's my first warning, but not follow through. and seh would get back on track. a few times i would remind her and in two years she has never broken the rule. same thing we talked about road safety before she could walk. and right after starting walking at 16 months she ran out on teh street. i just lost it and went ballistic on her. she just couldnt believe mommy could react that way. seh is almost 3 and HAS never repeated that again. EVER!!!

i definitely do think there is a diffrence between disciplining boys and girls. and mostly girls seem to be easy.

our latest is with the poopy word. it is fine by me but gpa gets upset. so we have been working on it. i feel gpa makes a mountain of a molehill but i constantly remind her she has to stop as she hurts gpa's feelings. i dont expect her to stop overnight. i am not sure if punishment will make them stop too. i will work on it consistently for a while and i already see the incidents getting fewer and ultimately one day it will go away.

things that i say danger. she knows the word from infancy. totally off limits. window blinds. cannot touch chords. once in a while she will touch them while i am there (u know the see i dare u i touched it) and ask me why they are dangerous. and i will explain. but never has she ever tried to disobey me and purposely play with it instead of touching it.

when my dd was younger i wanted to punish when seh got into the teenage years. or even the defiant years. but now as i see my 'talking' system working i will continue that way.

if she threw food now (which she doesnt) i would pretty much go dar's route. as she grows older i expect her to disobey me. i expect her to break the rules. like all children my dd is extremely curious too. and she is pretty well behaved too. so due to her history if she went into a drug house without my permission i would go over it with her. we would discuss what she saw and figure out if she felt i was being fair. as a last resort i would try punishment if nothing else worked.

so far i havent needed to to that. though as i think more of it if i can continue my bond with her, and keep communications open i would not like to punish.

in principle i dont abhor punishment. for some children punishment works. for some it doesnt. it didnt work with me when i was little, but worked v. well with my brother. my parents would be tearing their hair out in frustration over me, but the more they punished me the more rebellious i got. i still cant see myself using it mainly because my dd is so sensitive that even a touch to her body is treated as 'mama dont push me
. usually everytime my dd has some behav. issue i have always been able to trace it to something and find a reason for it and also be able to stop it from repeating frequently.

i hope i made sense. i think i will spend my whole life saying punishment is not bad - but i wont be able to do it. its like abortion. i support abortion but i just cannot do it myself EVER.


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## lechepatito (May 24, 2005)

_Well I would agree that any action calculated to cause suffering would by my book be immoral._

Delurking to say that in my reading of Anthony Wolf, the timeouts are specifically used to cause suffering - he states that the idea of the timeout is to let the child feel the withdrawal of your love as a consequence of her behavior. That's suffering in my book! I agree with Maya that he is not AP, and I would question any statement of his that he is against punishment, since the very reason for the timeouts he advocates is to cause pain in the child.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lechepatito*
_Well I would agree that any action calculated to cause suffering would by my book be immoral._

Delurking to say that in my reading of Anthony Wolf, the timeouts are specifically used to cause suffering - he states that the idea of the timeout is to let the child feel the withdrawal of your love as a consequence of her behavior. That's suffering in my book! I agree with Maya that he is not AP, and I would question any statement of his that he is against punishment, since the very reason for the timeouts he advocates is to cause pain in the child.


Well Wolf is not AP. But he does not advocate time outs as punishment. The purpose of a time out (and it is not for any period of time) is to allow a child to deal with the disapointment of not getting his own way on his own.

He believes that this should occur only for "small dispaointments" and only after the parent has given the child reasoning, empathy, and affection.
If a child is still tantruming after being offered these things, he beleives any parental response only gets in the way of a child learning that they have the power within their own bodies to get over a disapointment.

In other words, the time out is not used to cause suffering, but rather to help a child know he has the power to feel better himself, without relying on someone else to make him feel better.

This is not an AP theory. But its not about "punishing' a child either. Its NOT saying "well you behaved badly, so now you have to suffer." Its based instead on the theory that people will be happier if they know that they have the power within themselves to "move on" from small disapointments.

I wholeheartedly believe that this is true. That there are some things in life that children will benefit from dealing with on their own. As examples of these small things that children should learn to get over on their own Wolf lists: "potato chips that are too soggy, toys they can't get, television they can't watch".

And he says that for "serious upsets and major disapointments" "children need as much of our help that they can get.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Jumping in to remind everyone that there are different sorts of time-outs.

There's the: you are throwing food at the table. Go to your room for five minutes. You may not come out or talk to us until then.

Or the: You are getting really upset at the table. Why don't you take a break for a minute, do ______ (that makes the child feel better and calm him/herself down) and come back when you feel better?

I use the latter with a student I work with who has behavioral/anger issues, part. when they manifest at school. He will have major blow-ups at very small issues (he wants two bowls for his snack at school and there is only one bowl per child.) and the adults have already talked to him gently and kindly about it and he will scream and cry and knock over his chair. Obviously he can't be at the table when he is acting this way - other children are trying to have snack, it's not a big thing, another child has thyroid issues and is sensitive to the noise - so I've worked with him to remember things he can do himself that help him to calm down so that now he can take a break by himself when he feels himself blowing up and return when he has calmed himself down and deal with the situation then.

I wouldn't call this a time-out in any way because he literally can't calm down when he's in the situation - he has to physically remove himself and step back and think about it and do something special to calm himself down - then he can return and solve the problem. But the goal is for him to not have to actually leave - but to even put his head down or turn around and relax for a minute and then solve it.

To me, this is a huge difference from: I don't like your behavior, you must leave and I'll decide when you can come back. That's nuts to me. Who should decide when the child is ready to return but the child himself. What if the 5-minute timer goes off but he's still angry? What would that accomplish? Plus it doesn't teach him what to do during that time that will help him. Obviously in the early stages of this, a child may say that he is ready when he's not, but I just remind him of why he's not ready yet and to take a little more time for himself. And since I've presented the "break" (with that word) in a positive way, it doesn't become an issue itself.

Here's a story from today - I was playing with my student, his sister, and his mom at the playground. She was in a bad mood and while we were playing troll under the bridge, she began to be mean to her mom and yell and cry. My student is very sensitive to other's crying and so he began to get upset and I felt bad for the way she was treating her mom and she wasn't ready to play. I told her something like, "I don't want to play with you while you're being so mean to Mommy. I'm scared you will be mean to me, and (student) is getting very sad because of your noises. As soon as you are feeling better, let's play again!" She got even madder and sadder, but it was true. So I played with my student for a few minutes while she cried and stormed about how she didn't like it, etc. while her mom held her. After a couple of minutes, I reminded her that I was waiting to play with her and then about a minute later, she came and joined us.

Neither her mom nor I punished her for getting crabby but I removed myself from the situation until she told me she was ready to play again. I would consider a punishment to be "You're being mean - go sit in the car/on the bench" or "You are being mean, no dessert for you tonight!"

I babysit for the two of them and she (5) often tests me and does stuff I ask her not to or doesn't do stuff I ask her to. Sometimes she bullies her brother (he can't talk) or gets really silly and "I'm going to do what I want to and do stuff just to annoy you." but I never punish her or put her in time out. I simply state what my expectations are and that I'm waiting for her to do them.

Another example - she's getting into chewing gum and her mom's rule is that the gum is either in your mouth or in the garbage (she got it in her hair recently and they almost had to cut it off.) she had taken it out of her mouth and was playing with it, so her mom reminded her of the rule and she put it on her plate. It got stuck there, so I gave her a napkin to remove it (which she did) and asked her to throw it in the garbage. She began to get silly and was watching my trying to see what I would say to her, etc. I simply said, "I'm going to get our toys ready to play - come in when you've thrown the gum out!" and she did. I didn't say, "If you don't throw that gum out, you can't come and play with us." If she hadn't, and I'd seen it before we played, I'd remind her of what happens when gum is left lying around. If I noticed it later, I would remind her that I'd asked her to throw it out. I often find that I may have to ask a few times, but after I've made it very clear what I expect, she does it.

One thing I've noticed from observing her with her mom, is that for some families, when dessert after a meal becomes norm, it can grow into a bigger issue - offering desserts as a reward for doing things that would normally just be expected, the child expecting a reward for doing those things, threatening no dessert if the child's behavior isn't good, etc. which are no longer in any way connected to either the behavior or the eating. So that's something I'm definitely going to watch out for with my kids. I think the "sweet foods are just like any other food we just eat them less often" route is the way to go - meaning dessert isn't linked to a meal or as a reward for other actions.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

I think for me, one of the differences I'm seeing here is the definition of "worked."

I have a 2.5 year old. He used to throw food. He doesn't anymore. It didn't happen "quickly." In fact, I lost count of the many, many times I picked up food (or let the dog do it.) But, he is not going to be a ten year old throwing food at the table.

The thing for me, with GD and not punishing, is that I am not looking for or expecting immediate results, "well behaved children." I heard someone say, and echo it often: I am NOT trying to raise a well-behaved child; I am trying to raise a well-adjusted adult.

An example that may help illustrate this is -- drawing on walls, or other things non-paper. My son has been playing with drawing utensils for a long time, almost two years. When he first started, he had absolutely no concept that you were only supposed to draw on paper (the rule in our house). So we always supervised really close, and if we couldn't be right there, he couldn't have crayons. As he got older, and older, and older -- he started getting more freedom with the drawing utensils. He drew on non-paper things. It's always dealt with the same way -- we say "Hey, bud, no drawing on anything that's not paper -- let's find some paper to draw on, but first we have to clean this up." I don't force him to participate, but I don't get paper for him until the cleaning is done. If he already has paper, that's great. And he has NO access to drawing utensils that are not washable.

Now, does my plan WORK? Well, it depends. What's my goal? Not to have my walls or floors marked up. And they're not. So yeah, in my opinion, it works. Now, if you thought my goal was to prevent my kid from ever drawing on the walls, then no it didn't work. But we've gone from having to sit right on top of him, to being able to trust him 95% of the time not to draw on walls/floors. When he does draw on something other than paper, with a reminder ("hey, bud, we only draw on paper") he says "Oh! Sorry!" and goes to get a rag to clean up with no prompting. Yeah, I think it works. If he were NOT trustworthy most of the time to only draw on paper, he would still only be getting drawing utensils under close supervision. In my mind, this is a strategy that has been 100% successful -- _even though_ he still draws on the walls sometimes.

The truth is, I _do_ have a well behaved child, almost always, but that's not my goal. Someone asked in one of these discussions "But do they behave when it _really_ matters?" (That's be a paraphrase.) I don't think that's a productive question, because deciding that it "really matters" is completely a parental construct, and NO discipline style is going to ensure that a good choice is made EVERY time. I want to give my kids the tools that I think will help them make good choices, as often as they can, even if I'm not around to threaten consequences, even if it's not the choice _I_ would make, or would prefer they make.

(BTW, I feel somewhat unqualified to join this discussion because I don't have any older kids yet, so feel free to disregard my input if you think that limits my ability to meaningfully contribute.)


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
FWIW, "having him clean up" is a punishment, imo...
dar

I respect your opinion, and I respectfully disagree. I'm just curious how having an older (preschool-aged) child clean up after themselves is punishment. I agree with much of what you said in the post referenced above, but this statement has me







. I'm not trying to start a debate, I really, honestly don't see how having a child pick up after themselves, to accept some responsibility for their actions, is punishment. To me, it seems that it's simply a teaching opportunity.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

PaganScribe - wonderful post. Really resonated with me


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I want to thank the OP because it's been bouncing around in my brain for a while too. I have checked UP by Kohn out of the library but haven't started it yet so I thought maybe I should wait to pose the question but you've done it for me. A little about my situation I do not come from a GD background. This is something I'm working hard on. Like the OP to me GD meant not spanking but over time I've had more and more exposure to GD as a broader concept meaning no punishments. Honestly my brain goes what?! How does that work? I have tried really really hard to avoid punishments and timeouts are the only ones I have ever used. I don't consider taking away a toy that is being used as a weapon to be a punishment but rather a consequence. Anyway I have read many times the parenting without punishment is not the same thing as not disciplining because there are limits but it seems those limits are not enforced so I guess that leaves me a bit confused because if you have a limit that is no enforced well then do you truly have a limit? I guess what I'm asking is what happens next? I am able to let the small stuff go. If she draws on the wall we remind her she has to write on paper. If she throws food not a biggie for me. She rarely does that but has reverted to using her hands to eat rather than a utensil since DD #2 was born. I don't sweat it. But out two big issues are harming our cats and other people. I have tried redirection, explaining, leaving the room myself, trying to put the cats somewhere else. Still she acts out in this manner. She is almost three. She definitely knows it is not ok to hit or hurt others she just doesn't care/enjoys the reactions/attention (even though it's negative). So what happens next in a no punishment household? This is the one limit that I cannot just let go of because it truly does affect others. It is not just a whim and yes I want her to learn to control herself but what happens in the meantime? Is this a scenario in which Wolf would advocate timeouts or not?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
. Anyway I have read many times the parenting without punishment is not the same thing as not disciplining because there are limits but it seems those limits are not enforced so I guess that leaves me a bit confused because if you have a limit that is no enforced well then do you truly have a limit?

The way I see it - limits are not "enforced". Limits are explained and demonstrated.

In this case limits from childs POV are not "something I have to do to avoid the unrelated(in childs mind) unpleasant experience", they are "something I have to avoid because the reason for avoidance makes sense" This way child will be making desisions to avoid certain things for a true reason, not because mommy/daddy will get mad. "Making mommy/daddy mad" can be highly confusing to a child, which can lead to many things - child becoming docile/submissive out of fear of unknown ("how do I know - may be if I smell this flower mommy/daddy will get mad?") or to child "testing the limits" - "will this make mommy mad?" "how about this?"

Now, don't get me wrong - I don't think there is a magic formula that will "make" a child into anything. People come in all different temperaments, character traits, ets., from their very birth. So I am not preaching "by not punishing your child I can guarantee you XYZ" Even the most GDed child may be a "limit-tester" or quite and mellow, but in this case it will be their natural trait, not the artificially created one.

It's just a desire (goal) for the GD parents - not to stop a certain thing from occuring, but to raise well-adjusted child that will make choices *not based on fear of doing something wrong, but based on a desire to do something right.*

I think two of the hardest periods for children and their parents are: 2-5 years, when it's not that easy to make the child comprehend a "true" reason AND teenage years when logical thinking is sometimes clouded by rapid hormonal change (think PMS :LOL ) And no punishment during those years can be really really hard (especially for those of us who can from the "strict enforcement" families).


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
I want to thank the OP because it's been bouncing around in my brain for a while too. I have checked UP by Kohn out of the library but haven't started it yet so I thought maybe I should wait to pose the question but you've done it for me. A little about my situation I do not come from a GD background. This is something I'm working hard on. Like the OP to me GD meant not spanking but over time I've had more and more exposure to GD as a broader concept meaning no punishments. Honestly my brain goes what?! How does that work? I have tried really really hard to avoid punishments and timeouts are the only ones I have ever used. I don't consider taking away a toy that is being used as a weapon to be a punishment but rather a consequence. Anyway I have read many times the parenting without punishment is not the same thing as not disciplining because there are limits but it seems those limits are not enforced so I guess that leaves me a bit confused because if you have a limit that is no enforced well then do you truly have a limit? I guess what I'm asking is what happens next? I am able to let the small stuff go. If she draws on the wall we remind her she has to write on paper. If she throws food not a biggie for me. She rarely does that but has reverted to using her hands to eat rather than a utensil since DD #2 was born. I don't sweat it. But out two big issues are harming our cats and other people. I have tried redirection, explaining, leaving the room myself, trying to put the cats somewhere else. Still she acts out in this manner. She is almost three. She definitely knows it is not ok to hit or hurt others she just doesn't care/enjoys the reactions/attention (even though it's negative). So what happens next in a no punishment household? This is the one limit that I cannot just let go of because it truly does affect others. It is not just a whim and yes I want her to learn to control herself but what happens in the meantime? Is this a scenario in which Wolf would advocate timeouts or not?

Well my question to you is why do you assume that "punishment" will work and what do you do if it does not. There are pleanty of children out there who are spanked and they dont' just stop doing the behavior for which they were punished.

Short of stading there with a whip (god forbid and maybe not even then) it is impossible to always be able to control another person's beavior. Indeed, I think some kids who are punished use the punishement as risk that they will accept. They know they are going to get punished but often do "bad" things anyway.

So that is why for me, there is just no need to punish. If my child is hurting the cats, I would remove either her or the cats. I would make it clear that this behavior was not acceptable and that I expected her not to do it again. Punishing her would be no absolute guranantee that she was not going to do it again. If it were people would only have to punish a child once and then voila, perfect behavior.

What I maintain is that for most kids (children with true issues 'may' need something different) making your expectations clear and remaining firm that they remain in place is as effective as non-physicial punishement in controlling a child's behavior.

And for me, taking a toy out of the hands of a child who is harming another with that toy, is NOT punishment. It is simply removing the means of misbehavior, which I have no problem with.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
So that is why for me, there is just no need to punish. If my child is hurting the cats, I would remove either her or the cats. I would make it clear that this behavior was not acceptable and that I expected her not to do it again. Punishing her would be no absolute guranantee that she was not going to do it again. If it were people would only have to punish a child once and then voila, perfect behavior.

I'm a little confused by what you are advocating here. Are you suggesting a timeout or something else entirely? I have tried timeout. I have tried to put the cats somewhere else. Unfortunately there is no where I can put them where she can't get them. She can open all the doors in our house and has mastered gates so there really is no way to keep her away from them. Likewise how do I separate myself or the baby from her when she is violent other than putting her or myself (which I have seen advocated in some places on the board and condemned in others) in timeout? How is this separation achieved and is it different than a timeout or is that all you're talking about?

I do agree that punished children usually come to weigh the risk. That's certainly what I did as a child. I knew that if I was caught doing ABC I would be spanked. My parents were at least very good at establishing the rules at that point in my life. As we all got older and they had more kids though they got lax and you never did know what might get you spanked. I myself was spanked as a teen because my younger sibs did something while I was watching them. As I said previously spanking is not on the radar at all.
I have never punished her in any way other than to put her in timeout. My question was that if you don't punish at all which would include (in some cases) not even giving logical consequences like you help me clean up the mess or removing the child or yourself from a situation what do you do if the child doesn't just stop the behavior? Many things I can let go but hurting others physically is not ok and I don't know how to take care of that until she reaches the stage where she wants to not do it because she realizes it isn't the right thing to do. Surely I am not supposed to let her drag cats around by their tails or hit me when she's angry for another two years if I choose to go the nonpunishment route. So what do I do instead?

Irinam thanks for the support. It is a hard hard age. Until very close to two she was never punished at all in any form. We only went with redirection, explanation and positive reinforcement. It took lots and lots of those things because she has always been a spirited child and a limit-tester. The physical harm to others has really stepped up since the second half of her second year though and I felt like I had to do something to start really giving her the message this was not ok since the other tactics were not working. I literally lost my best friend because my daughter beaned her very mild-mannered DD over the head with something and her Dh freaked out and decided they weren't safe to play together.







: My cats run from her and try to scratch her if cornered. It did reach a point where I felt just reminding her to be gentle wasn't phasing her in the slightest. Now I'll be totally honest and admit that timeouts have not worked. Leaving the playground if she starts pushing or hitting has worked wonders. She very rarely gets physical with other kids any more. But if that's acceptable how is that different from a timeout or a mommy timeout? I am really open to the concept of no punishment it's just that in my particular situation I feel that I am being totally ignored and beat up and I don't know how to stop that. Is she just going to grow out of this or am I teaching her that it's ok to treat other people however you want and there are no consequences?


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
.

FWIW, "having him clean up" is a punishment, imo...


I don't know if I agree. I think it depends on how it is presented - i.e. "Look at the mess you made you are going to clean this up





















" with shaming and yelling is definitely a punishment.

However, if the clean up is presented as "when we make a mess in our house we have to clean it up" and doing the cleaning together is along the lines of a continuum concept "this is how we do things" style approach.

AS far as the OP's question goes - reinforcement of good behavior works much better than any kind of negative reaction. This is true for adults as well as children. Please note, however, that my perspective on this comes from teaching - my daughter is only 16 mths old, so many of the issues that you would have w/ an older child have not come up for us yet.

But think about it - if you complain/nag your So about something you want him/her to do differently -- is it effective? It is much more effective when (at least in my experience) if I make a big fuss of gratitude & appreciation when he does something that makes me happy. The same holds true for children. I know some people do not agree w/ this & feel that motivating children through praise is unhealthy. I undertand that perspective - but I do feel that praise is much healthier than punishment/negativity.

BTW Dar - your relationship w/ your daughter is inspiring - I hope my daughter & I can communicate that well when she is older


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*
I don't know if I agree. I think it depends on how it is presented - i.e. "Look at the mess you made you are going to clean this up





















" with shaming and yelling is definitely a punishment.

However, if the clean up is presented as "when we make a mess in our house we have to clean it up" and doing the cleaning together is along the lines of a continuum concept "this is how we do things" style approach.


ITA. It's only punishment if you make them do it when they threw the food deliberatly but would clean it up yourself if it was an accident.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I recommend the chapter on Freedom in John Holt's classic "Freedom and Beyond".

Here is my summary of what he says, which I agree with, and use in our family:

The world has limits. Death being the most final. But there are many others. Gravity, heat, velocity, bacteria, etc. all serve to create limits that, broadly, trickle down to create "rules" we enforce as a society.

There is no such thing as raising a child without limits. It's impossible. If they live on earth, they are limited, and children know this. Children are very perceptive. They understand limits within many contexts. Even if you try to create a consequence free environment~so thoroughly childproofed and so unrestricted as to nearly give the impression of freedom to safely do whatever you like, it will still only be a temporary illusion. A smart kid will pick up the world beyond that environment, and crave to understand it better. They will know a consequence free home isn't the truth. It's the inverse of making a child think an arbitrary rule is a settled fact.

In other words, say to a child "If you talk during the meal you must go to your room" ~they know that's just bull you've made up. Likewise, when parents say 'It doesn't matter what you eat, candy for meals is fine" they also know it's bull you've made up. Pleasanter bull, but still bull, and sooner or later they will figure out what bad advice you gave them, and wonder what in the world you were thinking.

So we do have limits, but I put it in a broad context. The most honest objective context I can. Over the years we have had almost no "defiance" or whatever people mean by "willful disobedience" because I almost never impose a limit that has *me* as the actual consequence. Once a child is old enough to speak easily, you'd be amazed just how far you can get on honest limits. Even when my son tested an honest limit, my reminder or redirection would go over without much protest. In fact he usually said 'oh right, thanks'.

IMO children under 3 are more like a baby than not, and it *is* about keeping them generally safe and lots of redirection. But once they are old enough to think beyond house and home, it works so well to keep your limits in a broader context. It makes you allies, not adversaries.

Sometimes it is about personal preference, but that is itself a concept that must be introduced and taught, not just expected. I would not expect a 4 year old to understand that he must be quiet all day so that I could rest. However by 8 I could expect that. In between, he would have had years of me talking to him, and him to me, about this or that as a like or dislike, talk about how this or that makes us feel happy and this or that is helpful or not helpful. Just lots of talking about consideration, mutual respect etc. So that by 8, he actually WANTS to do something if he knows it helps me. He really wants too. He might not have 3 or 4. He couldn't have understood. He was still learning.

So to the OP's examples:

With the 3 year old. Okay, that's a good example. First of all there's a reason he's doing it. Attention, or power, or simply being self centered in the way a 3 year old is developmentally supposed to be. 3 year olds are thinking about NOW and thinking about later is really hard. So I would not be exepcting at 3, that this child would once and for all be ready to never throw cereal again, having fully understood it to be wasteful. What I might do (again, it depends on many different things, and my own intution as to why he might be doing this): First, I would, without making any statement to him about it, set the most tempting things out of easy reach, and begin to give him only small bite size portions. I would not tell him this or make it punishment, I would be very subtle about it. I'd rather he not notice at all. This would just be a temporary measure to avoid a huge mess while he works on getting control over this behavior. Second, I would sit and give him what I call "aware attention". Very calmly, in your own mind, try to get in tune. When you feel that space in your own head, I'd say, without criticism "Is it kind of fun and silly to throw food?" and try to get him to laugh and admit it was fun. Let him feel safe trying to express this. Then I'd guide that emotion "It is fun. If you want to throw food, what's the best place to do that?" He might have an idea. "Outside" "the bath". And say yes, that is a good idea. Then I'd try to connect the idea of waste here (not easy for a 3 year old) "this is good cereal. I think it should stay in the box or the bowl or your tummy. It's not easy to get to the store to buy it. the floor can't eat it. Let's not feed this to the floor". Then show him something he could throw "Here is a drink (water) and some food (maybe stale bread crumbs) and you could feed that to the bath or to the grass outside. If he threw the cereal again I'd say something matter of fact like "Oh, that stays in the box or the bowl. It isn't for the floor" and offer to help him clean it up, talking him through it "Buggies like this, let's get it up so the buggies don't come inside our house". I would just keep going like this. To me that is enough for a 3 year old. I would do different variations of my response. The point is to feel he is curious and listening to you. I never end a situation when he seems to have tuned me out. Never. It means I went past a point that he understood. I go back and talk until I say something that gets him curious and attentive again. Even if it's " booger". It is essential that your kids really be listening. It is always a balance between certain facts or issues that he needs to eventually understand, and keeping the situation *safe enough* that he can take the time to learn them. It isn't about throwing away the limits and pretending there aren't any. Of course there are. I trust that he WILL learn to respect limits like food throwing. So I keep him out of a situation where he can make a huge mess until he understands why he shouldn't, but I do not make him feel punished for being a normal 3 year old, nor do I stop working with him and giving him chances to practice and learn.

Okay with the older child going away without telling:

Well to begin with that is a REALLY subjective question. It would depend on SO many things. I can't answer it as you put it, but I will create a different scenario with more detail. Let's say that my child is at school, has a best friend, and that's the kid he went home with. Let's say, this is a kid who he has visited before. So, now lets imagine they both live on the same street and both walk home from school. Let's say, I never thought before of addressing this scenario. I had never really sat down and talked with ds about how much it might frighten me if he never came home from school or called. So in that case, my response would be : Wow, okay I know this is something I did not tell you before. But we need to talk about how I felt today when you didn't come home. Let me ask you first, how would you feel if I was to come home at 6, but by 9 you had not heard or seen me? (stopping here to say, my son would be HYSTERICAL if I did that, so I know my child would not need more than this statement to "get it' and always call in the future). Again, no talking if I think he's tuned me out. backup. Start from a point that I know he is really listening. Don't be accusatory. Admit my own mistake in never discussing this before. Ask him calmly to call in the future. End of discussion.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

: Great Post, Heartmama!!!!

Oh, and if he wants to throw food, you could go to the park and feed ducks by throwing stale bread at them, tore up. OMG, non punishment parenting is sooo much more fun!!!!


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

No suggestions for me?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
No suggestions for me?


Are you asking about cats?

If it were me, i would completely separate cats and child, no questions asked. I'd go on to something else that has nothing to do with cats. If she asks whete they are: "Cats need rest. No more cats today".

If it's about food, I'd clear the food away and move on to something else. if there is food throwing it would indicate to me the child is no longer hungry. And then I'd say "Dinner time is over. We can have snack later". If serving a snack a little bit later produces the same results, child is not hungry, 'Snack is over sweetie. Time for___".


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

wasabi I went back and read your post.

Well, as I already said, I think the idea of approaching every situation with a child as though there were no consequences to anything they ever did is extremely dishonest. Even if it is well intentioned, it has no basis in reality at all. I don't mean "the adult world" kind of reality people use to excuse punishement (cops give speeders a ticket, so my kid gets 'fined' for running in the house). I don't mean that kind of reality. I mean this is a dichotomized universe, a universe of opposites, of cause and effect. You can't escape that. It's the reality we all experience. My son was born with a serious health condition. Not everything in the universe is within our control. So if you have the impression that you must create in every situation a consequence free solution, that is not realistic, and it isn't the goal of living without punishment. Punishment is something that has nothing to do with the real limits of a situation. Letting your child see the limits of what they can do within an environment is okay, healthy, and has nothing to do with punishment at all! Interpreting those limits, and helping a child cope with them, is unavoidable. You can try to avoid it, but I can't image how it benefits a child.

So, with your cats. Well, first of all, I have a hard time accepting that you cannot separate her from the cats. I say this lightly as a joke, but she isn't Houdini. She can't possibly, at 3, get through a high bolted door lock. I have no doubt that space is limited, but you have a responsibility to protect all of them, and it seems that some compromise of space is the only realistic solution if you do not want her, or the cats, harmed. I can see no other solution. What I would most likely do, is restrict the cats during the day, when you are home with your awake child. Pick a room, put them in there with a litter box, toys, food, water etc. and bolt the door. When she naps, and when she goes to bed at night, I would let them roam freely. To me that would be the best compromise, and keep everyone safe. Perfect? No. But what other solution do you really have? Giving away the cats, or risking her getting a nasty bite, seems to abdicate responsibility for their safety and well being. Rotating use of the home, for now, will protect them all, give them space, and honor the limits of your child at this stage. If these are outdoor cats, skip the room, and put them out when she is awake and playing.

In the meantime you just keep working with her. Have practice sessions with the cats. Read books about animal care. She is 3? She is so little. This really is a phase. It really is, it won't last forever. She is too young to understand injury or death. Children begin to question that around 4 or 5. At that point the reason they cannot hurt the cat will be much clearer to them. You can't really teach that before she is developmentally ready to understand.

Also, if she is having a violent fit, and does not want comfort or hurts those who get near her~walking away and leaving her to her space is certainly not a punishment!

Sometimes with ds and these fits, it was a matter of summoning up what little patience I had and simply outlasting him. He would run over and scream and hit, and I would explain my limit (and I think it is a great example to have personal limits and model for a child how you might express them) "Do not hit me. It hurts me. Try stomping your feet instead. If you want me to help you calm down, I will". If he kept hitting, I would walk away to another space and let him rage. If he followed me, same, repeat. I just did this until he exhausted himself and finally gave up. The limit never changed. He was never punished. He was dealing with the honest limit of the situation which faced him. I was there empathetically to help him cope with that. Pretending I had no limits, would have been a lie. And he would have known it. The truth was that I had a limit, and he had crossed it, and walking to another space if he continued to cross it was the simplest way to demonstrate the difficult concept of personal space.

I hope that helps.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Are you asking about cats?

If it were me, i would completely separate cats and child, no questions asked. I'd go on to something else that has nothing to do with cats. If she asks whete they are: "Cats need rest. No more cats today".

If it's about food, I'd clear the food away and move on to something else. if there is food throwing it would indicate to me the child is no longer hungry. And then I'd say "Dinner time is over. We can have snack later". If serving a snack a little bit later produces the same results, child is not hungry, 'Snack is over sweetie. Time for___".

I was asking about the cats and hitting me and the baby and DH. As I said I don't have any way to separate her from the cats. We don't have any food issues that was the OP. I am shamelessly threadjacking because I had the same kind of issues.







:


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

That did actually help heartmama. I have been walking away from her when I had reached my limit and she would usually follow and act in a much more calm manner but then several recent threads (this one I think) were saying that was the same as telling her I would take my love away if she was "bad." Now I feel a bit more secure that it's ok to do this especially since it did seem to be helping. In her case it is usually less of a tantrum and more of her laughing hysterically as we try to block her blows and kicks. So after going through the "we don't hit. That hurts me when you kick." I just get up with the baby and say "well we're going downstairs. We don't want to stay here and have you hit and kick us." and then we leave. She will say "oh ok." and hop down from the bed and follow us. I guess I need to be ok with taking baby steps and realizing that at this point in our lives logical consequences (ie if you hit someone they don't want to play with you) is the way to go.

I actually have really tried separating them. Short of buying a bolt and installing it I have not been able to keep them apart. For a while I had door knob covers but she not only figured out how to open the door anyway but also how to remove them. The cats also pitch a fit if they are confined to the point of scratching the frame of the door very badly. They are inside cats but do tend to have "accidents" if they're pissed off. We have an open plan downstairs so my alternatives are basically the basement and our bedrooms. To be honest I'm not wild about having litter boxes and angry cats in my bedroom. They were not meant to be outside cats but recently DD has been letting them out and I've been encouraging it. That's fine right now in the summer and if I lived in the south I would just let them become outside cats. However starting around October through March we'll have temps too cold for them to be outside so unfortunately that is not a permanent solution. The scratching cat is so shy of her at this point that we can't even practice gentle petting because if she gets near he rears at her. At this point I really don't feel that they are happy and I'm not definitely not happy. I think it might be better for them to be elsewhere. Yes she might outgrow this in another year or two but that will be just in time for my younger DD to hit the 2s. I feel like I'm too tired to fight this battle right now I guess and I hate how my poor cats must feel.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

No shame wasabi,

I read the post and I think this is one of the toughest issues to face with kids, honestly. I think your question about your child and the cats was an excellent one. I think you might want to post the exact question over in the new pet forum under mindful home management.

I am fairly sure that what you are going to hear is that it is important to protect the cat from your dd. It might be just a phase, but you are the guardian of the cat, and you are the only one who can protect the cat. Cats are not toys or playthings, or punching bags.

With my children and pets, I tried very much to get the child to look at what they were doing to the cat in terms of look at its face and body language, and does the cat like what they are doing? My children were a little older than yours though. The attitude I stressed was that we don't "own" the cats, the cat is not our slave, we can't just hold a cat when they are meowing to get down. I took a new look to make sure I wasn't petting the cats or holding them when they didn't want to be held. None of my children ever hit a cat, but if they did, I would say tell them that it is my responsibility to keep the family (sister, brother, cat) safe. When they get hit, they don't feel safe, and in this house we all need to feel safe. I would question, does the cat feel safe? Does your brother feel safe? I don't know if a three year old can understand this, but you can try.

I call hitting "big emotions" and when my children are mad enough to think about hitting, they are having big emotions. We do not leave people alone with big emotions. For my hitter, I say, when you feel these big emotions, and like you are going to hit, before you hit, I want you to come to me, and tell me that you are having the big emotions, and we will talk it through, and you won't have to have those big emotions alone. I have kids coming up to me all the time when they are upset, before they hit, telling me they are having big emotions, and we talk about what is bothering them and find a solution. I use this opprotunity to give them special time or change of scenery, talk about what is bothering them and meet whatever needs they have that have made them upset.

HTH......


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

I think you may be approaching gentle discipline with whether it "works" or not, which is where the confusion potential is.
How about this....does monogamy "work" for you (assuming you're in a monogamous relationship, if not then just assume in general).
Whether monogamy "works" or not is an odd question, bc monogamy is a standard, a goal for a relationship. It's how you approach everything regarding the relationship. And you do whatever possible to maintain this high standard.
For example, if you're attracted to someone, you learn to stay away from that person bc physical chemistry is too strong to be tempted repeatidly.

It's similar to gentle discipline. It's not whether it "works" nor can you say exactly how it looks. It just is. It's a philosophy, a standard, a goal that affects your entire approach to your interactions w your child(ren). Always. And when you fall short, you try to forgive yourself (your children always will bc they love you unconditionally)...and you learn to avoid similar situations. You learn to let things go,...you learn to believe the best about your child(ren)...you learn to be thankful for the moment, bc you may not have the next. You fall so in love w your children that it hurts. You pray you'll be half as good of a parent as they deserve. You strive to make your home a peaceful, accepting place, bc the rest of the world is not so. You learn that food on the floor is not an unethical happening. You learn that he won't be doing that when he's 20 no matter what you do now---but that by being gentle, loving and compassionate w him now, when he is 20 your realtionship will be real and strong and true.
It's as simple as the golden rule of "do unto others..." This should apply to your children more than any other people in your life.
And there's a reason it's called "exercising" patience---if my patience were directly related to my figure I'd be a supermodel.







patience patience patience
You're not alone...it can be so hard...but so so darn worth it!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Wasabi I'm glad that helped. It is not withdrawing your love to move away calmly when a child is actively pushing everyone away literally, and symbolically, with hits and kicks. If anything, insisting you stay in that space is a little egocentric on the part of the parent. Sometimes a child will hit and then cry in surprise if you move away. In that case I would procede with a lot of intuition about what they might be thinking. This happened when my son was a young toddler. I would be holding him and he would suddenly hit me. I would try words and "gentle" and holding his hand carefully to show him what that meant. But sometimes, he got in a good one without me expecting it, and was poised to hit again and didn't accept a verbal redirection, and hit repeatedly. I would put him down. He would cry in protest. I'd pick him back up and reassure him, lots of eye contact "Hitting hurts mama. We don't hit mama' and then I'd try to distract him with something different. At that age he really didn't see me as another person. The idea of hurting me was beyond him. But, it is still okay to introduce the idea, to model concern for my own space, and to keep helping him through that experience. The key is not to up the ante and do more than is necessary to protect yourself. Set the example you want your child to learn. How do you want them to respond when a younger sibling hits them? Model that. Don't expect them to always understand or agree. But you can keep setting the limit in terms they understand. You do not have to wish away the limits, or fake like they don't matter, because your child will know you aren't being honest.

Quote:

I call hitting "big emotions" and when my children are mad enough to think about hitting, they are having big emotions. We do not leave people alone with big emotions. For my hitter, I say, when you feel these big emotions, and like you are going to hit, before you hit, I want you to come to me, and tell me that you are having the big emotions, and we will talk it through, and you won't have to have those big emotions alone.
Prevention is so key. I love this idea. I'd probably emphasize that it feels safer to talk when you have big emotions, rather than stating you can't be left alone with big emotions. That might be a little confusing (at least it would have been to me as a child). But definitely an awesome idea for giving them ways to redirect their own emotions constructively.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Sparklemom I don't care about food on the floor. I don't care about crayon on my walls. I think I have made it abundantly clear that I'm not trying to fight tiny battles. I care about my cats being drug around by their tails and my three month old being hit not becuase my older DD is having big emotions but because she thinks it's fun to make the baby cry. You are minimalizing true issues by basically by bringing up food which I totally agree is not an ethical issue and ignoring the hitting which is. If I don't give consequences at all and just keep asking her not to hit me or DD #2 what does this say to my younger daughter? I don't hit her but I let her sister do it because apparently separating them would warp her older sister. To follow your example I think it's actually more like if I was doing everything I could to maintain monogamy but my partner was having affairs. I am gentle to my daughter. She is not gentle back to me or others. That is what makes me question whether it is working. Your response seems to be that it just is working even if she is still doing everything I'm trying to gently guide her through. But don't worry because when she's 20 she'll appreciate and love me.

Bestbirths I actually wish my DD did mainly hit out of big emotions. I wish she hurt the cats out of big emotions. Usually though she's just laughing and having a grand old time. She is not usually upset or frustrated when she does this. I guess she likes the reaction. I have far better success with talking to her when she is acting out than when she's just doing it for kicks. Oh well I guess I just keep slogging on and hope that it will be better some day.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Heartmama again thanks. What you said about how would I want her to respond to DD #2 hitting her actually helps me to remember that she has been very good about the baby pulling her hair. A few days ago they were playing together on the floor and my older DD started yelling and I realized the baby had a huge handful of her hair and was just yanking very hard. I got her hand out ASAP and explained again that the baby didn't even mean to pull her hair and praised her for understanding. Every now and then I get glimpses that as you put it she is realizing other people are people too. But then there are the bad days when it feels like we'll never get passed this. Your posts have made me feel a lot better about how I am handling things. I understand that sometimes people probably get a bit of a knee jerk response to issues poeple sometimes have but I feel like you really read what I am saying. I am not sweating the small stuff. I am not spanking. I am trying very very hard not to yell. I am only trying to fight the battle of physical violence against people or animals. Everything else I give her guidance but do not make an issue of it because it's not worth it but it's so hard to keep turning the other cheek. Not to say at all that I would spank her but you just feel this urge to "do something." Thanks for making me feel like what I am doing is enough and acceptable at this stage.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

For some reason I accidentally skipped part of the clearly specific conversations going on here, and just wrote some things in general. Sorry about that! Wasn't trying to insult by being so general here. Good luck with your situation. Sounds very stressful for everyone.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

Bestbirths I actually wish my DD did mainly hit out of big emotions. I wish she hurt the cats out of big emotions. Usually though she's just laughing and having a grand old time. She is not usually upset or frustrated when she does this. I guess she likes the reaction. I have far better success with talking to her when she is acting out than when she's just doing it for kicks. Oh well I guess I just keep slogging on and hope that it will be better some day.
I am starting to maybe get a picture here. I really don't think that your dd is laughing and having a grand old time, although it might appear this way. That is a facade, to hide some big emotions. Do you think the big emotions could be jealousy of the new baby?
I think, in this case, to take the baby and walk away and say "we don't want to play with people who hit" during these laughing, hitting, fits would just hurt your dd worse. I would put the baby down and hold dd during these fits. I would put the baby in a bouncy thing or on a blanket and see if dd wanted to play or do something. Can you get a babysitter for the baby for a while to spend special one on one time with dd?? I would do this on a regular basis. Could your dh or dp take the baby while you spend time with your dd alone, do something special together, and if you do this a lot, I'll just bet dd's behavior will improve. Not overnight, it does take lots of time, but I really do think jealousy could be the issue, or just that dd isn't getting enough one on one time with you.









Truely, she is not doing this for kicks. She is hurting deeply, and this is a cry for help! Hugs to you mama!


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

This is definitely part of it I have no question of that. However the baby naps about three times a day and older DD does not. So we have that time together and I do take the baby upstairs to nap rather than wearing her so we do have that time. DD will flat out ask me to put the baby down and hold her or nurse her instead and assuming the baby is not hungry herself and is calm I try to do that as much as possible. She's gone from nursing once a week or so to nursing several times a day and I've really tried to be very open to that though there are times when the baby has to nurse more than she does (and she's not very good about literal tandem nursing). She does not always do this only when the baby is around though. She will also do it when it's just she and I and Dh on the bed spending time with her. Sometimes I think she just gets out of hand with the bouncing on the bed (it happens a lot on the bed actually). She likes to bounce and then she lays on her back and just throws her legs around and kicks and kicks and kicks. This is why in part I think leaving helps because it changes the scenery. She does come with me and knows that she can come with me. Does that matter? I'm just saying I'm not going to stay on the bed and let her kick me.

I have tried to do thing with just her. Sometimes we go to the store together by ourselves and last week we went for her to get her first big girl haircut and bought a tea set so we could have tea parties. Definitely some of it is attention seeking/jealousy related but some of it also I think really is not having empathy and not getting those boundaries. Now I will say when I put her in timeout she reacts totally differently from how she used to. In the past she would sit in her room calmly and then come out. Now she really protests so that I do think she is feeling cut off from me and it is upsetting to her. This is why I am questioning so much right now because I don't feel the timeouts really helped and I don't want to use them. I also don't want a 3 year old who gets kicked out of preschool for beating up other kids. I think I mainly needed to talk through this and even just analyze what has truly been going on. I've had a really rough couple of weeks when I think DD realized that the baby wasn't leaving and really started to act out. This week however has been a good bit better so maybe things are really settling down and I'm just borrowing trouble. The cats well that issue is still there unfortunately and not showing improvement at all. But if that's the worst of it well we can get through that. This question just really struck a chord because having been there I had the same questions. I guess I needed to take a step back and realize that some of these things really have been working. DD has been vocalizing her needs more like asking me to put the baby down and I need to reinforce that to her and myself.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

She may not want her mom to set the baby down and hold her. It's worth a try. Wasabi will know quickly whether it's what her child wanted or not. Personally, I'd ask "Do you want me to stay here and hold you?" rather than assuming it. Edited to add I see this was given more detail from Wasabi. If she panics when you leave and is clearly asking to be "babied" then by all means do what you can to fulfill that need. She is still very much a baby herself and it is absolutely wonderful that she feels she can express that to you!

wasabi when my son hit, he always did it with something like forced glee. I agree that there were bigger emotions underneath it. In his case, I felt that part of his aggression was due to medical issues he had to deal with (heart surgery). There was nothing I could do to take away what he had experienced, his pain was real, his frustration more than justified. But I think to an extent, you have to be mindful of a balance between what we guess a child is thinking, and where the child is at in the present moment. You can guess your child is jealous, or that my child was angry over his hospital stays. But is the child aware of those thoughts? Probably not. They may never draw those conclusions. My son is 9 and he has no memory of ever hitting anyone in his life. In my opinion, the real benefit of sitting back and asking yourself what deeper issue is at play, is to draw up the necessary empathy and patience you need to handle the present moment constructively. Guessing "why" does not necessarily give you words or actions that will reach your child in the present moment. It's a very important question, and sometimes it does provide a solution too. But if all it does it give you some extra empathy, that's quite wonderful.

I have seen parents who insist on staying in a child's space when they are violent and I have seen it backfire. I have seen kids of 5, 6, and 7 who seem to make something like a sport out of their mother's space. Throwing sand and sticks and pouncing on her repeatedly, laughing and saying "I don't care" all the while she maintains a kind of forced calm herself, a stoic presence stating again and again "Please don't hurt mama. Ouch! Gentle with mama! Sweetie please use your words with mama" . Why is the child doing it? Because the mom is not really indifferent. She isn't really okay with what is happening. Deep down she does not want someone throwing sand in her face and laughing and she desperately hopes that her child will stop. It is driving her nuts and she can't stand it. Her seeming indifference is fake, her child knows it, and he will keep pushing at her because he naturally wants the truth. He does care deeply and does want to get along, but he can't understand her, because she is sending a mixed message. Her words say one thing, but her child intuitively knows much stronger emotions are building just below the surface. He is drawn to that and it's become a game of trying to force her to words and emotions to come into line. When people say children crave limits, that is absolutely true. It's often said to excuse punishment, unfortunately. But it doesn't make the statement any less true. Probably the best way to phrase it is that children crave honesty. They detest patronizing attitudes of stoic tolerance. Would you like someone to treat you that way? Children don't like it either. If you won't tell them the truth, children will try to force it from you. It is possible to respectfully and mindfully be honest without being selfish or angry.

All humans intuitively sense when emotions and actions are incompatible. Even a baby won't respond to a cold smile like they would a warm and joyful smile. It's very helpful to keep that in mind with parenting.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Heartmama-- i totally agree with having personal limits. If my child were to kick me, i would tell her that kicking hurts me and I will not let her do it. I might do several things, and none of them are about punishment. I might first distract, as i say "Kicking hurts. We have to keep each other safe". I might hold, depending, I might move away. But I wouldn't stand there and be kicked.

A frustrated child can sometimes be reasoned with, but not usually. Sometimes letting a tantrum run it's course is the most respectful thing we can do for a child. We can say, "I am right here if you need me" and then clearing an area so the child can go at it. It's a release of tension and it doesn't need a punishment. When it's over, you can move on to your next thing, which might be a nap or snuggling up for a story. It might mean it's time for a little protein.

Kicking might mean getting a ball to kick, but it might not.

Wasabi-- I am thinking about your cat problem, and you def need to figure out a way to keep the cats safe and out of your dc's reach for a time. It's a phase, but the cats should not be harmed. Do you have a basement, a garage, a room, anything? Maybe a really large dog crate with cat toys and scratching posts?


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I don't let the child hit me when I get into their space. Say, one is kicking and hitting and throwing stuff. What happens is I gave the child a bear hug and say that I wasn't going to leave her alone with her big emotions. I held her until she calms down while I talk to her, and say "You are having some big emotions", "We need to feel safe and we don't feel safe when you hit, kick, and throw things, so I am going to hold you and keep us safe and not leave you alone" "Tell me why you are upset?" "Use words". Usually as soon as the child can articulate what is bothering her, she will calm down. As soon as she quits kicking and calms, I release the bear hug. Usually she is still sitting on my lap, and we begin to talk at this time about what her needs were that weren't getting met. We try to find a solution at that time. Then, I remind her that next time, please come to me when she has big emotions, when she feels like hitting or kicking, before she starts to hit and we will talk about it and find a solution first. There is always a solution that doesn't involve hitting if we can just talk about it, we can find one.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

She will also do it when it's just she and I and Dh on the bed spending time with her. Sometimes I think she just gets out of hand with the bouncing on the bed (it happens a lot on the bed actually). She likes to bounce and then she lays on her back and just throws her legs around and kicks and kicks and kicks. This is why in part I think leaving helps because it changes the scenery. She does come with me and knows that she can come with me. Does that matter? I'm just saying I'm not going to stay on the bed and let her kick me.
This is a situation where I might walk away, and change the scenery too. With my children though, if I walked away from them while they are kicking, they would get mad and start throwing or breaking things. They usually only kick when they are really mad. Your dd seems to be kicking in this situation, just to be kicking. I guess it all depends on the response of the child, if you walk away, do a redirect and say "hey, I am going to make some juice, do you want some?" "Ok, I'll be out here in the livingroom, if you need anything or want to play or something" and just kind of ignore the kicking and walk away and see if it stops. If she started tearing the sheets off the bed and wrecking the room, then I would do the bear hug.

I second the kick ball or socker ball idea. Maybe you could say "I see you like kicking" "hey, do you want to go outside and kick a ball with me?"


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Well I just want to say this has really helped me center myself and give all these suggestions a renewed go and it's been working pretty well so far today. The baby laughed at her earlier and I think it hurt her feelings so she slapped at the baby's tummy. It didn't hurt the baby but it was a good opportunity to talk about her feelings and ask if she wanted me to the put the baby down (she didn't) and redirect the hitting to a soft chair and not only did she hit the chair then but later on when she got frustrated she stopped and went and hit the chair. Of course we've still had a few meltdowns especially when we had to return items to the library which she wanted to keep but all in all I'm just trying to push through it. So thanks for the encouragement.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Bestbirths,I only tried the bear hug approach once. My son absolutely hated it, went crazy saying "NO, NO" and so I stopped. It felt very wrong for us. However I know some children respond well to it. I think whatever you do, it should be a response that shows them there is a limit on hitting and kicking, by limiting the hitting and kicking. If a bear hug works, that is great, it is another way to make the limit real to them. If walking to another space works, also great, it makes the limit real to them.

Wasabi, that is great! I think the whole title of this thread was wrong. Consequences are a natural part of life and have nothing to do with punishment. It would be impossible for me to raise a child in a consequence free space. I could not begin to conjure what that might look like. A padded bubble stocked with automatrons for friends? I don't think kids have any desire to be raised like that. I think you will be just fine figuring out the honest limits of your situation, and raising your child to understand and respect them.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bestbirths*
I second the kick ball or socker ball idea. Maybe you could say "I see you like kicking" "hey, do you want to go outside and kick a ball with me?"

I have some questions about this suggestion, which has come up in other threads here too. What if this is not an option? Eg, you are getting ready to go out and can't drop everything and go kick a ball in the yard?

Would you say this if dc kicked a friend, or only if dc kicked you?


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
I also don't want a 3 year old who gets kicked out of preschool for beating up other kids.

Wanted to comment on this, because we have been practicing gd w/ds since birth, went through a 'hitting for fun as well as out of frustration' phase with ds, and he did get kicked out of (a supposedly gd, child-centered) mom-child preschool class for hitting other children when he was three.

I read all these posts with great interest and many have great ideas, but I think your concern about 'real world' vs. mom-world is reasonable, based on my experiences. The rest of the world is not so forgiving, and unless your dc can stay home with you all the time (so you don't have to worry about being kicked out of preschool, or lost playmates) this is a very real concern.

In mom-world, when ds hits he gets a 'You are angry. I don't like being hit - it hurts. etc.' In real world, he gets hit back (by another child), gets a time-out (from the teacher), or mom loses a friend bc friend decides dc is not 'safe' to play with (yes, that happened to us too, and the friend also practiced gd).

Arguments about looking at things long-term (forming a resilient, happy adult) vs. short-term (you can't hit other kids) are true for mom but less helpful when talking about friends, teachers and playmates, even if those same practice gd. I would be interested in hearing more about how to handle this from the fabulous contributing moms here (ie, the very real need for short-term compliance vis a vis harming others outside of the home).


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I do think children should be protected from other children kicking them. This is where supervision comes into play. A child who is known to kick in a group setting should be carefully supervised. If that can;t happen, the program isn't right for the child right now.

While a diffciult one, one of the jobs a teacher is to supervise the children carefully. If a child continues to kick, they are most likely not ready for a group situation or the school is not meeting the particular needs of the particular child.

Removing a child who is kicking is not punishment, it's a safety issue. Sitting a kicking child in the corner is punishment. But moving the child to a safe place with a comforting adult nearby as the child regains control is not punishment. Supervision is important, because as one adult comforts the kicked child andother adult is caring for the kicking child. It's labor and time intensive when we are talking about groups situations. Not anything easy, but there ya go.

Why the child is kicking is an issue. Are there too few toys, too little superviosn, too much chaos, in general? Is the child simply not mature enough at this point to be in a large group, or this particular group? Asking these questions all address the problem without shaming or punishment. If a child is withdrawn from a preschool program for kicking, he most likely was not ready for that program. (There is no shame in that. Our children's needs have to be more important than our parental egos). That's a consequence, but it's not punishment. When the child matures and becomes less impulsive, one can try playgroup again, or can try another smaller, more supervised situation.

And moving a kicking child gently away from another saying "I can't let you hurt anyone. Everyone needs to be safe" isn't punishment, either , but it is a consequence. These are different things.


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## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
If a child is withdrawn from a preschool program for kicking, he most likely was not ready for that program. (There is no shame in that. Our children's needs have to be more important than our parental egos). That's a consequence, but it's not punishment.

So, for a parent who needs to have dc in child care the answer is, what?

It seems you are saying that the answer to a child who hits out of frustration is to withdraw the child from all social interactions until the child is socialized enough to handle these situations. So, the child is withdrawn from preschool, withdrawn from playgroups where she hits others, and ends up spending the day with mom.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom*
So, for a parent who needs to have dc in child care the answer is, what?

It seems you are saying that the answer to a child who hits out of frustration is to withdraw the child from all social interactions until the child is socialized enough to handle these situations. So, the child is withdrawn from preschool, withdrawn from playgroups where she hits others, and ends up spending the day with mom.

No that's not what i am saying. While some children might beneift from more time at home, I didn't suggest that spending all day at home with mom is the 'answer". Finding the right fit is important. I also wrote:

{{While a diffciult one, one of the jobs a teacher is to supervise the children carefully. If a child continues to kick, they are most likely not ready for a group situation or the school is not meeting the particular needs of the particular child.

Removing a child who is kicking is not punishment, it's a safety issue. Sitting a kicking child in the corner is punishment. But moving the child to a safe place with a comforting adult nearby as the child regains control is not punishment. Supervision is important, because as one adult comforts the kicked child andother adult is caring for the kicking child. It's labor and time intensive when we are talking about groups situations. Not anything easy, but there ya go.}}

If you have a kicking child, i wouldimgaine that one would want a progrma that could meet their needs in a non shaming, non-punitive way.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

You also might have missed this, Chicago Mom.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Why the child is kicking is an issue. Are there too few toys, too little superviosn, too much chaos, in general? Is the child simply not mature enough at this point to be in a large group, or this particular group?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

When ds was between 20 months and 33 months I had to really restrict playdate situations. He was a very aggressive hitter, and it was always unprovoked, so very hard to anticipate. I am sure he would have been kicked out of preschool if he'd gone. We didn't just stay home during that time. He did a bit better at outdoor playgroups, so we stuck to "park day" kind of settings. He did better in a large group than just one child. I won't say it was an easy year, because it wasn't. But we did lots of walks, we spent a lot of time "out and about" (bookstores, coffee shops, toy stores) too. He really did need a lot of quiet time at home and I don't think that is negative in any way.

If I worked I am not sure what I might have done. It would be quite a dilemma. I would hope that somewhere a very patient school existed that would take him and work with him. I would first look into at home care, with college students old enough to be responsible, but young enough to be affordable. I would look into a home daycare with just one or two other kids, where it might be less stressful. If I had family I would see if they could help.

The thing is you cannot just make a hitter stop. Plenty of parents spank and punish toddlers for hitting and it doesn't do much to stop it. The few times I've heard of a parent stopping a hitter in their tracks, it was severe physical punishments that IMO were absolutely abusive. I am sure if you asked at daycares "Do your hitters have non punitive parents?" they are going to say "Some do, but many others are spanked often and if anything it makes the hitting worse".

I don't know what real alternative you have but to keep working with your hitter, and find a safe environment for them while you work. If there is another solution I'd love to hear it!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

I have some questions about this suggestion, which has come up in other threads here too. What if this is not an option? Eg, you are getting ready to go out and can't drop everything and go kick a ball in the yard?
I would just not suggest it then, I would suggest do they want to get a snack on the way to go do errands , or "Hey, I am going to costco, and if we hurry we can get the free samples" or anything that gives the child something to look forward to... "Hey, we are getting ready to go run errands, when we are done, on the way home, do you want to stop at the park?"....something like that. If my child is throwing a fit, I can't go until she calms down, and if it happends in the car, we have to pull over and deal with it, and yes, it has taken two hours to drive 45 minutes home this way before.

The issue that came up with us in the car, for example, this was sibling jealousy, kind of the same underlying issue. A couple days earlier I had gone through the clothes and given a jacket to dd's younger sister that she had grown out of without clearing it with dd first. It was a yellow jacket, and it was her favorite, and even though it didn't fit her anymore, she was not ready for her younger sister to have it. I felt like in hindsight, I really botched up that by not being more sensitive when I went through the clothes and taking the time to give dd a chance to get used to the idea of this jacket going to the younger sib. But since I didn't, there I was with a hissy kitty in the car, demanding that her jacket be returned immeadiately. We are on the highway and she is out of her carseat trying to physically remove the jacket and pry it away from her younger sister who is holding on to the jacket for dear life. I had to pull over and deal with it there. It was 45 minutes where there was no solution. We did the bear hug because dd was kicking and flailing. Finally, what happened is that younger dd graciously gave the jacket back. DD calmed, we put everyone in their seats and drove home.

Had I been proactive, and been more sensitive about giving hand me downs, this probably wouldn't have happened that way. There are other underlying issues behind her fits that I haven't been able to find the solution for yet, like the sibling rivalry dynamics makes her the odd one out, and so she gets extremely upset about getting the raw end of the deal with her siblings. This is almost always the cause of my dd's big emotions. The redirect, or bear hug techniqes are just really temporary things that you can do while you are trying to figure out what the deeper need is going on that is not getting met, causing the child to act out in the first place.

Quote:

Would you say this if dc kicked a friend, or only if dc kicked you?
No, I wouldn't say this if the child was kicking someone. This was an answer to a situation where the parents were maybe roughousing or playing with a three year old girl on the bed while the sibling was sleeping up in a crib in another room, and the girl had been playing, but started kicking, and yes, was kicking the parents, but in an out of control fun way. In this case I would have moved out of the feet kick zone, and said "I see you like kicking, would you like to go kick a ball outside". The parents in this situation were trying to have special time with their daughter, they weren't in a rush to go somewhere.

What I really like about training my daughter to come to me when she is feeling her big emotions, is that most of the time, if she will come to me first, we can talk it through and I can help her find a solution before it ever gets to the point of her becoming what we call "a hissy kitty". Her hissy kitty, makes hissing noises, claws, and kicks, at other children. It scares other children. I try to watch her closely and the minute she gets hissy I do the bear hug until she calms down, while we talk about solutions. Being proactive though....its like a blood sugar thing....we can prevent the episodes if she comes to me when she feels the big emotions welling up. So, I am trying to get her to where she will say "Mom, I am having big emotions because ds has my yellow jacket", then we talk about it and bypass the whole fit altogether. This happens more and more as we practice. Whenever a child comes to me with the big emotions, I stop everything and help them find a solution. And, in the meanwhile, I am trying to foster teamwork and cooperation, and strenghten the sibling relationships so these explosions don't occur. Or, just knowing that when we pass the clothes down, it almost needs to be a ceremonial thing where dd is involved with preapproving and passing down the clothes in the future. At playgroups, I remind them all not to hit, and that if anyone is having big emotions, they are to come to me or an adult first, and we will help them find a solution. I remind them right before we get out of the car to go in to playgroup. If it was a daycare, you could preplan this strategy with your provider that your child could go to the teacher when she was having the big emotions, and the teacher could help the child the same way. It is really hard, like I said before, very excellent questions.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Apropos of nothing but DD #2 isn't in a crib she's in a bed. The kicking does happen when we're just playing with her but also was happening a lot when the baby would wake up from her nap and we'd go to get her. We'd end up just lazing around on the bed and usually DD would then migrate to kicking. I've been trying to cut that off at the pass recently by trying to move us all away from the bed ASAP when the baby wakes up. Sometimes DD is very reluctant to leave the bed. She'll say she wants to nap or hold the baby. So I'll let her pretend to nap or hold the baby briefly but still my goal is to get us off the bed because for whatever reason that is where she kicks the most. That's been working fairly well for us because then we never get to the point where I tell her I'm leaving because she's kicking because we don't get to the kicking. Also with the cats I have been very watchful and using the suggestions someone gave of explaining that the cat's noise means he's asking her to stop and she has actually been doing it. I had told her before that the scratching cat hisses to tell her he's going to scratch and that hadn't worked but for whatever reason it has been for the last few days. Maybe it's a combination of making a very concerted effort to be less punitive or maybe something's finally clicking either way things have been greatly improved.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

Quote:

That's been working fairly well for us because then we never get to the point where I tell her I'm leaving because she's kicking because we don't get to the kicking.
Exactly! This is wonderful. It's kind of like you are organizing the environment where the kicking doesn't start. This is what I call being proactive. Way to Go.







It is amazing how the children can learn to read the animals emotions at a very young age, and know what the sounds a cat is making means, then listen to the cats feelings. I just think this is story shows the beauty of non punative parenting.


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