# WWYD (if you were the mum) in this situation?



## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

My friend is a mother of two, a little boy and a little girl, who is 7.

Situation:

Little girl's stepgrandad is teasing her -- kicking her butt, stealing her tiara, etc. She keeps saying "No!" and "Stop that!" in an angry tone. Mother admonishes her for being rude. Stepgrandad persists in bugging little girl, and little girl keeps on protesting his behaviour. Little girl's mother tells the party that little girl has an "attitude" and needs to go to bed now for being rude.

WWYD in this situation if you were the Mommy?

I ask because I don't have any kids, just my one little baby, so I'm new at this parenting stuff.

But my instincts told me that it's wrong to not acknowledge the little girl's discomfort. Yes, she could have said PLEASE stop that, I suppose. If it's important to mum for the "please" to be added, could the mother have said, "Little girl, I need to speak with you for a second" and in a separate room, away from the crowd, tell her to say "please" when asking someone to do or not do something. On the other hand, why was the little girl's feelings ignored? If someone were bothering me, I would tell them to stop!

So now, the little girl is taught that her feelings don't matter AND she was "shamed" in front of the party.

I was a sensitive child, so this would have really bothered me.

But I know not all kids are the same, so I ask WWYD if you were the mum?


----------



## southernmommie (Jan 7, 2007)

I would have asked the guy to stop. If that didn't work, leave if possible.


----------



## TinyMama (Sep 4, 2007)

Sounds like the stepgrandad needed to leave the party instead...he was the one behaving badly!

I have a very low tolerance for adults teasing children. I'm usually pretty live-and-let-live, but to me this kind of teasing borders on torture. As a sensitive child, I would have cried and it would have taken me a long time to get over something like this. When adults do this to aggressive/less sensitive children, they are demonstrating their dominance and modeling a horrific way to act towards smaller/less powerful people.

I never, ever, ever allow teasing to happen to children in my care. If I had to see this person regularly, I would've spoken to them about it. If not, I would make an excuse to call the child over to me, or I would have simply walked over, taken the child's hand, and left the room("Come and help me with something...").

Also: I would never make an issue about manners in this kind of situation. IMO it's usually inappropriate to correct manners during stressful situations.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

BOTH mom & stepdad were way out of line. No "please" is needed when asking someone to stop assaulting you!


----------



## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I would be very uncomfortable if someone was causing my son distress and invading his personal space in such a way, as well as not respecting his requests for this to stop.

The Mum in this situation really needs to take a stand on this, and respect her daughter's wishes & requests.

Peace


----------



## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
BOTH mom & stepdad were way out of line. No "please" is needed when asking someone to stop assaulting you!









And the mother's condoning this behavior teaches the little girl that

a: She doesn't have the right to control what's happening to her own body where adults are concerned.

b: That her mother will not protect her.


----------



## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Sorry, different take on this. The "glue" in this family- whoever was responsible for the blend, be it the grandmother who remarried or the stepfather- should have intervened. Mum was put in a situation where she had to choose between offending stepgrandad (i.e. not _her_ dad) and upsetting DD, and the whole darn family let both women, mother and child, down. In this situation it maybe wouldn't have been inappropriate for another adult to step in and distract the foul old man.
That's the way I see it anyhow. If you don't nurture a mother, HTH do you expect her to nurture her children? Not to say that what she did was right, but she got her child OUT of a horrible situation, and might well have apologised later. Family politics are funny things.


----------



## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
BOTH mom & stepdad were way out of line. No "please" is needed when asking someone to stop assaulting you!









yes.
How sickening


----------



## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

interesting perspective flapjack. I agree with you also.


----------



## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

I don't really care about offending adults when it comes to protecting my kids. I would have told him to leave my child alone, and I don't care who he is and if he's offended. My kids come before anyone else to me, and that includes offending some patriarch in the family if need be. I've told my grandfather to lave my kids alone before, and yes, he got offended, but he respected that I am my kids mother and if I don't like it, it's my right to tell him to stop.


----------



## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

i like what flapjack said. also, if i was *any* adult witnessing that i would have said something.


----------



## ShannonT (Dec 6, 2007)

I usually have to step in and tell my dad to cool it when he's bothering my niece or nephew. My brother and SIL are afraid they might offend him.







:


----------



## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
i like what flapjack said. also, if i was *any* adult witnessing that i would have said something.

oops - that was me. i'm on sd's laptop. not payin attention....


----------



## birdie22 (Apr 1, 2005)

My little guy is only 3, but he's kind of a serious, introspective kid. This kind of thing comes up all the time with our extended family, where somebody tries to tickle him or tease him to get him to laugh or react. (DH has been known to do this, without thinking. I think it's just the way his family is.)

I usually say matter-of-factly, "he's trying to tell you he doesn't want you to do that." So far, this has always worked. It kind of makes them feel stupid, but so what?

If the adult persisted, I would get mama-bear on him. I think they know this, which is why the don't go there, KWIM?

Punishing the child for standing up for her personal integrity is just crazy, IMO.


----------



## Beverly (May 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MountainLaurel* 
And the mother's condoning this behavior teaches the little girl that

a: She doesn't have the right to control what's happening to her own body where adults are concerned.

b: That her mother will not protect her.

Yep, I agree.


----------



## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 
My friend is a mother of two, a little boy and a little girl, who is 7.

Situation:

Little girl's stepgrandad is teasing her -- kicking her butt, stealing her tiara, etc. She keeps saying "No!" and "Stop that!" in an angry tone. Mother admonishes her for being rude. Stepgrandad persists in bugging little girl, and little girl keeps on protesting his behaviour. Little girl's mother tells the party that little girl has an "attitude" and needs to go to bed now for being rude.

WWYD in this situation if you were the Mommy?

I ask because I don't have any kids, just my one little baby, so I'm new at this parenting stuff.

But my instincts told me that it's wrong to not acknowledge the little girl's discomfort. Yes, she could have said PLEASE stop that, I suppose. If it's important to mum for the "please" to be added, could the mother have said, "Little girl, I need to speak with you for a second" and in a separate room, away from the crowd, tell her to say "please" when asking someone to do or not do something. On the other hand, why was the little girl's feelings ignored? If someone were bothering me, I would tell them to stop!

So now, the little girl is taught that her feelings don't matter AND she was "shamed" in front of the party.

I was a sensitive child, so this would have really bothered me.

But I know not all kids are the same, so I ask WWYD if you were the mum?

Your instincts are on the mark. If I were there I would have said something directly to the grandfather in a polite manner.

Sheal


----------



## Mammy Julie (Sep 24, 2007)

My parents tease and tickle Adam and sometimes he enjoys it but its always obvious when hes had enough. When he was younger and therefore to young to defend himself I always stood up for him - thats my job as a mother. Once he became verbal I taught him to say 'NO' in a firm voice and if my parents (or anyone else) ignored himthen i would back him up and say 'he told you no, he wants you to stop'. I think its an issue of safety too - we need to teach our children that they are in control of their own bodies and if theyre ignored when they do that what does that teach them? that adults can do what they like to their body and they have to accept that because theyreonly children? this occasion it may have just been tickling and teasing but if heaven forbid someone ever did something seriously wrong this little girl feel like she could turn to her mother for help.

Flapjacks perspective is interesting too and i agree we should stand up for other mothers too.


----------



## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

I would have told Granddad to stop. Adults often play these sort of games, but then don't realise when the child has had enough, and that to me is when it becomes a problem. Once it was obvious that the little girl was starting to get upset I would have stepped in and said that she wasn't enjoying it anymore and to stop.

I still remember being tickled or something when I was younger, and it was fun for a while but then my brother (or whoever) would take it too far and I'd end up getting upset.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
That's the way I see it anyhow. If you don't nurture a mother, HTH do you expect her to nurture her children? Not to say that what she did was right, but she got her child OUT of a horrible situation, and might well have apologised later. Family politics are funny things.

While I agree that other people should have stepped up to the plate to defend this little girl's rights (ideally the Grandmother should have spoken up to her husband), and it shouldn't have been all up to the mother -- I disagree with the idea that it was okay for the mother to give in to family politics. I'm not sure if this is what you meant.

I suppose it may have improved things, if the mother took her dd out and then apologized for sacrificing her rather than confronting the step-grandad. But then the mother should have resolved to NEVER do this to her dd again. And gone with her dd and confronted the step-grandad at a later time.

But IMO, an apology to her dd wouldn't mean very much without concrete evidence that Mama was going to dig deep and find that inner Mama-bear in future. In comparison, Mama-bears might find it ideal if all nature were united with them in their endeavors to protect their cubs -- but they don't use the less-than-ideal support situation to justify letting a jaguar tear their babies to pieces. We shouldn't either!


----------



## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Not to say that what she did was right, but she got her child OUT of a horrible situation, and might well have apologised later. Family politics are funny things.

I agree with this. She got her child out of the situation. That's FAR better than leaving her child there for the step granddad to continue to torment.We don't know if the mom had been brutalized as a child to the point where she wasn't able to stand up for her child.

Personally I would have intervened on my child's behalf and not cared at all if anyone was offended.


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I think it was good to get the child out of the situation, but not to couch it in terms of the _girl_ misbehaving. I think _that_ was tragically _wrong_.

This little girl was confident and self-possessed enough to say "stop" when she meant "stop." It's unconscionable to me that the stepgrandfather did not respect that, and that the mother shamed her for it. How do they think these lessons will serve her in adolescence? Family politics be damned; this is too important.

If this was happening to my daughter, I would have put an end to it. I'd have gone up to the stepgrandfather, put my hand lightly on his arm, looked him in the eye, and said quietly but firmly, "She's had enough." If he argued with me, I'd add, "I mean it. And I've had enough too."


----------



## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
BOTH mom & stepdad were way out of line. No "please" is needed when asking someone to stop assaulting you!









Right on!

I'd have no problems offending someone if they were irritating my kids. I've certainly offended my mil before because she was irritating my kids. Heck, THEY'VE offended her when they tell her to stop.

If you irritate my kids and then get offended when someone tells you to quit, that's YOUR problem and I won't make it mine. (Nor will I let my kids make it theirs!)


----------



## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Both of my girls are willing to protect their personal space and I have definitely encouraged this. I don't make them hug people, and I don't insist that people can touch them, hug them, tickle them just because they're related. Neither is shy about an assertive "NO" if they want to be left alone, and I'm pleased by that.


----------



## 2shy2post (Oct 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mammy Julie* 
I think its an issue of safety too - we need to teach our children that they are in control of their own bodies and if theyre ignored when they do that what does that teach them? that adults can do what they like to their body and they have to accept that because theyreonly children? this occasion it may have just been tickling and teasing but if heaven forbid someone ever did something seriously wrong this little girl feel like she could turn to her mother for help.

Flapjacks perspective is interesting too and i agree we should stand up for other mothers too.

*This is HUGE!!!* I was unable to say "stop" to the man who molested me over a period of years because he was my grandfather and I was taught that I couldn't "defy" an adult. Additionally, once my feelings (that what was happening was wrong) were validated ~ school videos and lectures, I still wasn't able to tell my mother for several years. I can only say that because my mother got me into counseling as soon as she found out, I suffered what I would consider minor repercussions. I have met others who walked down terrible paths in life because of this...









I would challenge any mother to justify why "family peace" is worth raising a child that is more likely to get molested/raped? More likely not to tell or seek help when something like this happens?







:

Even at 3 & 4, my children know that they have complete say in what happens to them. At EVERY turn and even in what seems to be inconsequecial situations, I allow them to say no to adults. I back their thoughts and feelings with absoluteness. This includes reminding grandparents that the kids do *NOT* have to give hugs or kisses and that it is *NOT RUDE* to tell *ANYONE* to stop touching them in ANY way they dislike.

Additionally ~ I would have SERIOUS RESERVATIONS about any adult who ignored a child's request to stop touching them.


----------



## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

my BIL does or should i say did this with dd. he did it to a point where she was screaming "stop" and saying "give it back to me" in a very helpless tone. well, i just could not watch it go any further than that and i marched right up to him, wrestled him onto the couch, snatched the toy out of his hand and screamed "she said to STOP! if you do that one more time to her i will be forced to do something to you, understand????"

he was shocked to say the least. he is only one year older than me (27) so he's not "right up there" in the family tree, but i doubt that would of coloured my decision even if he had been. when your child is talking in a helpless "why are they doing this to me" tone, somehow you just don't give a shit who it is you have to face.
he doesn't take jokes too far now. oh and for the record, i had no idea what the "something to you" was going to be - lol. just wanted to say that to him because i was so pissed off.

edited to add - my BIL is 6ft something and is a security guard, i am only 5'2... somehow adrenaline kicked in and i took that mother down. still can't believe it.


----------



## Wolfcat (Jan 10, 2006)

ITA with the general consensus here. "No" means no! Regardless of the situation or context.

Abuse and rape are very obvious reasons to keep a child from suppressing their right to control their own bodies, but there are seemingly harmless emotional responses that can occur from these situations, as well.

I have always been sensitive to tickling (makes co-sleeping interesting sometimes!) and my bio dad, especially, would tickle me until I was laughing/crying so hard I couldn't breathe. Up until I was about 25, when I laughed too hard, I would cry and couldn't catch my breath - essentially a mini-panic attack. It got better once I started standing up for myself and building my self-esteem.

I hope that if such a thing ever happens to my DS or another child in my vicinity, I would have the gumption to say something. But I am extremely passive around family, so here's hoping.


----------



## kikidee (Apr 15, 2007)

I agree w/ the other posters. I *hate* when my MIL traps DD playfully, or people get in her face all "teasing" like, and DD gets upset. I agree w/ what some others have said -- I want my daughter to know that SHE has control over her body and what others are allowed (or not allowed) to do to it.

An example of how I have handled this type of situation before -- once when my MIL was over, she was playing w/ DD, and I walked past and saw DD getting upset b/c MIL was holding her down with her feet. I just said "Ohh.. hey sweetie" and picked her up -- as though it wasn't about my MIL, and I was just comforting her about something that had happened to upset her. MIL said "What's wrong?" and I said "Oh she just couldn't get up" and my MIL said "Oh... that's b/c I was playing w/ her...." and I just smiled and snuggled DD, and said something noncommittal about how she was not happy or something like that.

So I guess what I am saying (in a long rambly way) is that I would have just focused on DD and helped her out, and not said "HEY you leave my daughter alone!!" (because it was a family member and not some stranger attacking her -- unless it's a recurring thing, I don't see the need to be that confrontational) and I would have soothed DD. If anyone had said something, I would have just said "I think she's had enough teasing" or something light like that, that doesn't leave room for an argument.

I hope that helps!!!


----------



## asianyoushi (Dec 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MountainLaurel* 
And the mother's condoning this behavior teaches the little girl that

a: She doesn't have the right to control what's happening to her own body where adults are concerned.

b: That her mother will not protect her.

i would have stopped the grandparent. that girl needs to know when she says stop, no. quit it. that the person *has* to stop.

she is gonna be a target for being raped/molested in the future. if her parents condone that behavior.

shame on the mother for her lack of parenting skills. hopefully the little girl bounces back and doesnt think everytime she has a party she is gonna be shamed/shuned


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I've only dealt with teasing from older people. I used to try to spare their feelings, by not saying anything. But now, I tell ds very clearly that such and such "is just teasing." The adults, every time so far, have stopped the teasing. (I think older adults simply don't realize that sometimes teasing isn't as fun for the kid as it is for the adult). I can generally tell that ds is getting upset, so I stand up for him.

For the rest, I'd hope I'd do what I do when other kids are being too physical with ds- tell ds to tell them that he doesn't like it. I tell them too, but I want ds to feel empowered that there is something he can do, and that running to me upset and scared isn't his only option.

Either way, I'd DEFINITELY stand up for my ds. If someone is doing something that he doesn't like, they need to stop (and I'm sure they would, if they realized it wasn't a game to him).


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2shy2post* 
*This is HUGE!!!* I was unable to say "stop" to the man who molested me over a period of years because he was my grandfather and I was taught that I couldn't "defy" an adult. Additionally, once my feelings (that what was happening was wrong) were validated ~ school videos and lectures, I still wasn't able to tell my mother for several years. I can only say that because my mother got me into counseling as soon as she found out, I suffered what I would consider minor repercussions. I have met others who walked down terrible paths in life because of this...









I would challenge any mother to justify why "family peace" is worth raising a child that is more likely to get molested/raped? More likely not to tell or seek help when something like this happens?







:

Even at 3 & 4, my children know that they have complete say in what happens to them. At EVERY turn and even in what seems to be inconsequecial situations, I allow them to say no to adults. I back their thoughts and feelings with absoluteness. This includes reminding grandparents that the kids do *NOT* have to give hugs or kisses and that it is *NOT RUDE* to tell *ANYONE* to stop touching them in ANY way they dislike.

Additionally ~ I would have SERIOUS RESERVATIONS about any adult who ignored a child's request to stop touching them.


















I really appreciate that you shared this.
It has strengthened my resolve to tell MIL that she is NOT to make ds feel guilty for not giving her a kiss goodnight.


----------



## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamamelia* 
edited to add - my BIL is 6ft something and is a security guard, i am only 5'2... somehow adrenaline kicked in and i took that mother down. still can't believe it.


















The visuals!!! Rock on, mama!!


----------



## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
BOTH mom & stepdad were way out of line. No "please" is needed when asking someone to stop assaulting you!


----------



## Caittune (Aug 2, 2006)

I totally agree that this is a case of safety. The girl should know that she is not rude for standing up for herself. Grrr I would be so steamed!!


----------



## Glaciers&Fossils (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
BOTH mom & stepdad were way out of line. No "please" is needed when asking someone to stop assaulting you!










Agreed. The adults are being ridiculous. I can't imagine admonishing my child under these circumstances. Mom sounds weak and stepgranddad sounds like a bully.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Sorry, different take on this. The "glue" in this family- whoever was responsible for the blend, be it the grandmother who remarried or the stepfather- should have intervened. Mum was put in a situation where she had to choose between offending stepgrandad (i.e. not _her_ dad) and upsetting DD, and the whole darn family let both women, mother and child, down. In this situation it maybe wouldn't have been inappropriate for another adult to step in and distract the foul old man.
That's the way I see it anyhow. If you don't nurture a mother, HTH do you expect her to nurture her children? Not to say that what she did was right, but she got her child OUT of a horrible situation, and might well have apologised later. Family politics are funny things.

I like what you're saying about how the extended family should have protected both the mom and the girl, but I hope you're not saying that a mother shouldn't handle that type of situation on her own. If my FIL (similar relationship to a stepgrandad, I'd think) was acting like that with DS (not that he ever would!), I might try something polite first ("Oh, it looks like DS is really upset -- let's give him some space"), but if he continued his behavior I would absolutely feel that it was my role, my right, and my responsibility to say something stronger and, if needed, physically step in to send DS the message that I will protect him no matter what.

I do kind of know what you mean, though -- over Thanksgiving, my uncle said a couple of things to DS that kind of bugged me (nothing as bad as the OP described), and I was grateful that my mom spoke up and told him to leave DS alone rather than me having to say something -- it did feel good to know that me and DS were being supported and protected like that.


----------



## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

NO way would i punish my daughter for her wanting someonen to stop HARRASSING her!! That's just ridiculous. Poor girl - she's probably going to get a complex about her "having an attitude"







:

I'd tell the guy to leave my kid alone. Period. End of story. If he wouldn't...well, then he wouldn't be seeing her anymore until he can control himself.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
I think it was good to get the child out of the situation, but not to couch it in terms of the _girl_ misbehaving. I think _that_ was tragically _wrong_.









:
I wonder if not wanting some guy to manhandle her in her teens is going to mean she has an "attitude", too?

Quote:

This little girl was confident and self-possessed enough to say "stop" when she meant "stop." It's unconscionable to me that the stepgrandfather did not respect that, and that the mother shamed her for it. How do they think these lessons will serve her in adolescence? Family politics be damned; this is too important.








:
Similar to another poster...after years of being forced to hug and kiss the man who was molesting me - forced by his wife, who _knew_ what was going on!! - I have _no_ patience with this kind of crap. I'll allow lots of roughousing and teasing of my kids - as long as my kids are okay with it. If they say "stop", it _will_ be respected.


----------



## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

I would intervene as soon as my child said "NO." I would take the kiddo to another room and remind them to use their words, they may say, "Please, STOP. I do not like that." in a firm voice.

In my experience "No" is sometimes taken as "part of the game"







: but if you say STOP I DO NOT LIKE THAT, it gets through more clearly.

If the behavior continued I would have walked across the room, plucked my child's personal belonging from my (or DH's) family member's hand and politely and quitely reminded them to not kick or pester the child, they have already been asked nicely.

SHAME on that mother for not standing up to her child. You don't have to be an ass about it, but family politics can kiss my rosy red







, if my child's in need of backup!


----------



## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

nak and haven't read all the responses yet, just the OP.

My dad and my brother like to tease, harmless teasing really, I see the humour and I'm used to it, but my DD who is 5 often does not. At the same time she is incredibly, incredibly sensitive.

So when my dad or brother are teasing her/pissing her off she generally just starts screaming at them to "back off" . Well, sometimes they find that quite funny and start laughing which pisses her off even more - understandably (and FWIW, it's not as torturous as it sounds







).

At any rate, I always say with my dad or brother right there "Maria, Grandpa (or your uncle) love you very much and would never want to hurt your feelings or upset you, so it's okay to say "Grandpa you're upsetting me. Please stop it right now." We don't need to completely spaz out and start screaming in their face (although that certainly gets the point across too







).

So she gets some power/self confidence and learns to start assertively standing up for herself with me there, and grandpa or her uncle who listen and respect her wishes, but also at the same time I was rather 'subtley' letting my dad or whomever know at the same time to "stop it immediately" which of course they always did.

Why this little girl in the OP was getting in trouble for her stepgrandpa's UA violation behaviour towards her is beyond me.

I hope all that made sense, I'm tired.


----------



## 2shy2post (Oct 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 








I really appreciate that you shared this.
It has strengthened my resolve to tell MIL that she is NOT to make ds feel guilty for not giving her a kiss goodnight.

MIL used to want the kids to give her hugs all the time when they didn't want to. I asked to talk to her at a completely different time. (She knew my "history".) I tried very hard not to make it about HER (cause, really, it's NOT). I asked her if there were times when she just didn't feel like being touched. How would she feel if someone 2 or 3 times her size just grabbed her up without asking if it was OK? I explained to her that the more respect she gave her DGCs the more comfortable they will become with her and the more they *might* want to hug. (though, I emphasized that it is their decision) I tried gently to give her some perspective.

Ultimately, I think that is part of the problem. As adults, we don't always get into children's heads and look at things from their end.

As PP's have said. I think it is valuable to teach children to say, "Please stop." or some other "polite" way of saying no. Then teach them to escelate the request if they are being ignored. This way to the "offending adult" it can not be construed as being rude when you confront them. Sad, however I have noticed that "Please stop" works better than just "No".

Sorry... I'll shut up now. For obvious reasons, this is something I am very passionate about.


----------

