# the circumcision issue



## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

Okay, so please don't get mad at me...but I wanted to hear if anyone else was in the same situation. Since we found out we were having a son, we had a terrible time debating whether or not to circ. We did lots of research and for a long time I felt like we wouldn't do it. I was always against it, but I still felt that, being a woman, it was something my husband should have a say in. We talked about it for what seems like forever. We did lots of research. My husband is not a brutal man, he is very gentle and a pacifist. So ultimately I told my husband that I would support whatever decision he made. We ended up circ. our first son. My son did cry during the procedure, but he nursed afterwards and we never had any problems since. (hes 2.5 years old now)

Now we are 30 weeks pregnant with our 2nd son and facing the same decision. Ultimately our 1st decision did come down to whether or not we wanted our son to "look" like his father, but it wasn't that my dh HAD to have it that way. He said that as for his own experience, being circ. was something he never regreted. The only insecurity I can even think of is that, we were worried about him not being circ. and then asking daddy questions about it and feeling different. Okay, before people start pointing out all the proof that this woud not be so...please know that we knew that and know that, but the emotional aspect of it is so pulling its hard to see when everyone else you know is circ, or those that you know who are intact...well, those people that we know who are intact, are not the kind of parents that we are. We are very "natural" in other aspects..such as babywearing, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, gentle disapline..etc.

I am confused because we haven't made any concrete decisions regarding what we plan on doing and probably wont until the baby gets here. I don't want to be seen as a monster parent no matter what I decide. I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1, but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc. Its a lot of pressure for a person to deal with. I wouldn't say that I regret circ. son number one, b/c we haven't had any problems and he is a happy kid, and was a happy baby. I do know people who decided to circ. as an adult and wish they had it done as a kid, and I know people who wish they hadn't circ. at all. So again, I'm torn between my relationships with these people and the decisions we feel pressured to make. Also, I know my husband will support my feelings on it,I just felt that he knew better than I about boys which is why I said I'd support whatever decision he made. He's had his doubts about it, but we can't change the past...and I still do stand by what I said, and I do support him. Now this doesn't mean that we feel "good" about having to make the decision by any means. Its obviously something that is eating away at us since we found out we are expecting another boy.

I'm not pro circ. and I'm not against it since it is something that 2 of the boys in my life have had to deal with, and seem to be okay with (except in the debating aspect in my husbands case...he is very much torn about the issue in general) I just don't want to get yelled at, we are already beating ourselves up enough over this and I just want to know if I'm alone in feeling this way. I wouldn't say its regret b/c after its done its done and we really had no bad experience with it. I'd really like to hear from moms who circ one of their boys and decided not to with the 2nd.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

It's obvious you're very conflicted over this issue, but I worry things might get ugly since you're not against circ, and this board is all about being against circ. Everyone, try to be nice.

I'm intact and so are my brothers and cousins that I know. But we never ever checked each other out or commented on each other's penises.

Circumcision is unecessary and you at least admit that you did it for superficial reasons. But really, how important is it to "look like daddy"? I mean, what impact does that have on his life? What if your son grows up and has an intact best friend and then he notices the difference? Isn't that the same situation? "Mommy, why am I different?"

There are intact and circumcised penises out there and at some point your son is going to notice that difference, and then you're going to have explain to him why he was circumcised. Circumcising him to make him look like daddy doesn't avoid that conversation.

I urge you and your husband to leave your second son intact. How can you be about gentle discipline but subject your newborn son to genital modification?


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## starry_mama (May 26, 2006)

Mama, I have a circed son and an intact son. Its not the end of the world. I also have a curly haired son and a straight haired son.

Also, whether or not you circ baby#2 or not, you WILL owe child #1 an explanation about circing him. That should have no bearrin on your decision to circ. Pm me if you want to talk. I remember feeling like by me NOT circing my second son, I was hurting my first son all over again. This is NOT true, but it feels like that sometimes.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

The default is leaving babies how they are born, so if it's a boy with all of his penis.
Emotional reasons should not truimp the fact that it's an unnecessary cosmetic surgery done to an unconsenting person.
You really don't know if your son's circumcision and lack of foreskin will affect him and he might not tell you if it does. Because it would most likely be in a personal and sexual way not something most men talk to their moms about.

I think as parents how we view our children needs to shift, we do not own their body parts. Really circumcision should not be a parental choice at all anymore than female circumcision is. Or cutting off a finger or a toe ect.
And most of all foreskin is there for a reason (several actually).

You should apologize to your first son because you took something that was his and something that was a natural and healthy part of his body. I truly hope you won't make the same mistake again

*I am not saying any of this with a mean or snarky tone , just a disclaimer because tone is so hard to read on-line.


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

My first son is circumcised as well. You can read his story in my siggy. It is a decision I regret very much.

The reality is that more than likely your son will not care whether he looks like Daddy. Once he gets to the age where he might notice the difference he will probably not be seeing your husband nude anyway.

If I ever have another son I will not circ again. My husband agrres wholeheartedly. I have no qualms about my children being "different" from one another. I know I will have to explain to Calen one day why he is circumcised and I do intend to apologize to him. I consented to a surgery which altered his body and his future sexuality when I had no right to do so. It is his penis and he should have been the one to make that decision for himself.

The other aspect of this to consider is that circumcision is like playing russian roulette. The outcome depends completely on who performs the procedure and how they perform it. I think that every circumcision is probably different even if performed by the same physician because every penis is different. Just because your first son has had no complications doesn't mean your second son won't. I think the guilt would be beyond imagination if you chose to circumcise knowing what you now know and he came out with a complication.

This article might help clear up some of the emotional aspects that circumcision holds for your husband. It is meant for you http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

I hope this helps.

Molly


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ct+circumcised

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ct+circumcised

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ct+circumcised

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ntact+circ%27d

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=719774

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng+to+my+child


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Welcome, motherearthdancer, and congratulations on your pregnancy!

Whether you circumcised ds#2 or not, eventually ds#1 is going to discover that he is circumcised. You might end up apologising to him in any event.

Do you want to have to apologise to #2 as well?

The bottom line is simple: baby boys come with a foreskin. It is a normal, natural body part, and should not be cut off without a REALLY good reason. You wouldn't have any other operation on your son "just because", would you?

Look carefully at this part of your post:
_I don't want to be seen as a monster parent no matter what I decide. I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1, but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc. Its a lot of pressure for a person to deal with._

You have a lot of concerns about how YOU will be viewed (whatever your decision), about how YOU might have to apologise to ds1, how YOU are struggling with the pressure. But you didn't write anything about ds2. How will HE feel about your decision? Is this operation the best thing for HIM?

Both my sons are intact; DH is circumcised. My sons are almost 13 years old (twins), and they are very glad that we left their genitals alone. When they learned about circumcision, rather than ask to be circumcised like their Dad, they felt sorry for him.

Simply explain to ds2 (if and when he asks) that when he was born, you felt it was best to have his foreskin cut off; since then you have decided it wasn't necessary, and left his little brother's alone. You might feel as though leaving #2 intact will be like admitting you made a mistake with #1. If it is a mistake, does doing it again make it less so?

The first time around, you more or less left the decision up to your DH, because he has a penis. But since he doesn't have a foreskin, his experience is no more personal than yours. The only preson who really should make a decision about cosmetic surgery is the person having the operation.

Best wishes to you for a comfortable pregnancy, uneventful delivery, and a decision that you, your DH, and mostly your son can live with.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

So ultimately I told my husband that I would support whatever decision he made. We ended up circ. our first son.
http://www.circumcision.org/others.htm

Quote:

My son did cry during the procedure, but he nursed afterwards *and we never had any problems since*. (hes 2.5 years old now)
With all due respect, how will you know if your son has any "problems" with his circumcision when he is a full grown man? Many men regret being circumcised for multiple reasons. When they learn about the value of having an intact body, many men feel cheated. I would too if someone decided to remodel my vagina for me without asking first.

Quote:

He said that as for his own experience, being circ. was something he never regreted.
Ahem. How would he even know if he regrets it? He doesn't know the expierence of having a fully functional, mechanically normal penis....how can he even make a judgement on that without _knowing_ what it feels like to have a foreskin?

Quote:

The only insecurity I can even think of is that, we were worried about him not being circ. and then asking daddy questions about it and feeling different.
See the link above. This argument is designed to protect the Father from feeling bad, not the son. For it is the Father who must confront that HE is different, that HE is suppose to look like his son. An intact penis is the default, not the other way around.

Quote:

or those that you know who are intact...well, those people that we know who are intact, are not the kind of parents that we are.
What does this mean I wonder?

Quote:

I am confused because we haven't made any concrete decisions regarding what we plan on doing and probably wont until the baby gets here.
This is a pretty major decision, not one that I would make at the last moment.

Quote:

I don't want to be seen as a monster parent no matter what I decide. I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1,
Be brave. _You do owe him an apology._ Apologies are apart of life. Many parents have to apologize to their children for various reasons. Why are you afraid of that?

Quote:

but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc. Its a lot of pressure for a person to deal with.
In this forum we feel that MGM is an abuse of power by a parents. The only way I can make you understand this is to ask you this: If your Mother had her clitoral hood (the female foreskin) removed at birth by force (because it's fashionable let's say) and claimed that she never regretted it and then she gave birth to you and thought that you should have your clitoral hood removed too becuase they would want your vagina to match your mom's....how would that make YOU feel? Yikes!

Quote:

I wouldn't say that I regret circ. son number one, b/c we haven't had any problems
You wont use HIS penis for the next 90 years....how do know what HIS problems might be down the road, due to this decision of yours? What do you know about ED? Do you plan on discussing ED with your grown son? What do you know about tight circ's and painful adult erections? Do you know if he will suffer those as a result of your decision? Do you plan on discussing this with your grown son? I rather doubt it.

Quote:

I just felt that he knew better than I about boys which is why I said I'd support whatever decision he made.
This is a cop-out. Genital integrity is everyones right. The fact that you are a woman does not excuse you from protecting your son's right to genital integrity.

Quote:

Now this doesn't mean that we feel "good" about having to make the decision by any means. Its obviously something that is eating away at us since we found out we are expecting another boy.
When you know better, you do better.

Quote:

I wouldn't say its regret b/c after its done its done and we really had no bad experience with it.
Again....it is not *your* penis. You will not use this penis ever. You will not know what the long-term ramifications are of not having a foreskin. To say that _you have "had no bad expierence"_ is incredibally foolish of you, the only person who can rightfully make *that claim* is the man who owns and uses the penis. A man who is missing an important part of his body is NOT expierencing life the way it should be. That's not good.


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## paphia (Jun 22, 2007)

I have to agree with some of the PP's - you go on and on about how this decision will affect you and dh, and how it will affect your relationships and your perceptions of yourselves and your relationships. And then you throw in that other than his obvious pain at being cut, your ds1 hasn't had any problems (yet).

But it is not your body to modify, not your genitals to amputate. Why is this even an issue if you know all that is wrong with MGM? Will your son not be a grown man someday, capable of making decisions about his body for himself? When do you hand ownership of his penis over to him? When he can go to the bathroom himself? Of course not, it is his body from the very beginning. Try thinking of this new person inside of you as a very young human being, rather than YOUR baby and YOUR son.

We do not own our children. My dh and I have a great relationship, but we are aware at what has been taken from us by his parents' ignorance and willingness to let others tell them what to do with his body. Leave the choice to your son and don't let your parental guilt affect how you treat your newest family member. You are good parents for revisiting this discussion, you are good parents for realizing you owe DS1 an apology, you are good humans for acknowledging that MGM is cruel and abusive.

Listen to your heart and tune out all this static about people you know and their foreskin status and I think the decision is already there. GL in leaving your son whole. He might just thank you for it!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I hope you can see that since they are born with a foreskin it is ment to be there.

It isnt about you or your dh it is about your son and his right to be whole. There are a few mom's here with cut and intact sons and they have delt with it. This is not a decision that you or your dh have a right to make at all and it really sucks that only here in the USA do parents choose to do this so often to their little boys. Other countries that once did RIC have all but stopped and most never started it to begin with.

Your fist son who is circed may come to you one day and say mom why did you do this to me and you will have to explain why. He cannot get back what was taken from him.

If you second son is left intact and comes to you and says mom why did you leave me intact you can tell him why. The major difference here is he can choose to be cired. While your first ds can never get his foreskin back.

Your dh can not regret being circed because he has no idea what is missing. He has never experianced things as they were ment to be and he only knows that one way.

You on the other hand have your complete genitals and know you are not missing out. So honestly you are in a better position to decide.

You keep saying your ds has had no problems with his circ but in all honesty you dont know that. You can see any thing wrong now but as a adult he may not have enough skin to cover his erection and have tight, painful ones. He may have hair pulled up onto the shaft. The list is endless what he might have to suffer from later on.

Here are some facts for you to read.
Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or "glans" of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world's male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- *The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.*

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

-Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - all of which have been scientifically disprovable. Including but not limited to it being a cure for baldness, mental illness, cancer etc. Etc.

The History of Circumcision
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...tpage&Itemid=1

*Warning disturbing pictures* "The medicalization of circumcision"
http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

A Short History of Circumcision in the U.S.A (this one is really scary when you read it)
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm

The Ritual of Circumcision
http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm

-Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man's body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to someone who is color blind they can see just fine but the full "color" is missing.

-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) *The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%.* Circumcision for phimosis should only be done as a last resort. After trying stretching, steroid cream and a dorsel slit.

-No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
Here is a list of statements from several countries including the USA and Canada.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that *might*(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

-The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.

UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

Quote:

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.
FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/

UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI

The incidence of Geniturinary abnormalities in circumcised and uncircumcised presenting with an initial urinary tract infection by 6 months of age
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/
- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we don't cut off parts of their genitals to prevent them.
Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

Quote:

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Quote:

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Quote:

******* established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.
Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he's ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:
Infections;
Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
Hair on the shaft;
Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
Skin bridges
Adhesions
Scaring on the penis shaft
Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/
DEATH
and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures *Warning graphic pictures*
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn't have a say in the matter.

- "Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem."

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

-What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys? FGM type one, the most common form of female circumcision, only removes the covering of the clitoris and some of the labia. Those parts directly corrilate to the foreskin on a male penis.

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn't bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It's supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off. *They also stimulate an erection so they "know where to cut." A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.* A stranger gets to choose how your son's penis will look. Since all circ are subject to the different specifics that the Dr. chooses to use. (Your first ds's circ will more than likely look nothing like your first ds's)

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php
Why men may insist on circumcision article

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Your sons have an inherant right to their WHOLE bodies. Regardless of any possible discomfort you as parents might feel with yourselves and your friends. It's your childs penis, not yours.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Hi! Welcome!! I'm so glad you visited









The people here on CAC are wonderful. They are all super smart! We won't bite. *kldliam*, you did a great job on your post! Its everything I wanted to say. Op, you've come here seeking advice and already I can tell that your instincts are pulling you away from the circ decision. You have good instincts. Since your looking into the matter your safe here. If you came here stating that you made up your mind and no one will ever change your decision to alter your son's genitals to an arbitrary reductive cosmetic surgery and compromise his genital integrity just so your family can feel "unified" and continue to bask in your false sense of security against the persecution for your choices... then you can expect to be eaten alive! You didn't do that so you don't have to worry.

ds1 was circ. I didn't want it done but dh did. (sound familiar?) I own what happened to him and do fully regret that he was circed. Surprisingly, dh does too. It seems, the more educated you are on the matter the more your against circumcision. There is ZERO education going on in America. My cousin is a Doctor fresh from residency. I asked him, "What did they teach you about the foreskin?" He said, "Nothing, only how to cut it off."

I just don't understand how your not regretting what happened to your ds1! I can't begin to fathom even for a second this statement you've made. I will carry this tragedy to my grave!!! Please don't take that harshly, I'm just saying I will never be able to comprehend it.

I have two more sons and they are intact. The boys get along great. Sure my 7yr circ son knows he is different than his brother and knows the reason dh wanted it done "To look like daddy" which is lame if you ask him, ds1. (You have to understand that my ds1 and your ds1 isn't culturally conditioned like our dhs are; makes all the difference in the world doesn't it?) Your ds1 will know that too one day. ds1 says he will never let that happen to his sons. And he adores his dbs. When Liam was born ds1 held him close and said, "I will never ever fail to protect you." It was really sweet.

Think about what your asking,
Your thinking about sacrificing your ds2's genital integrity, circumcising him just so ds1's feelings won't get hurt?!?! He may be even more resentful that not only did you and your dh choose to take away something that was rightfully his but you did it to his brothers too. And thats even worse because brothers are very protective of each other. For the most part, they are. Again, I'm not dogging on you. I'm helping you see the bigger picture.

It will be your job, the more educated parent and your fully intact (I'm assuming you are), to protect your children if he fails to do so. I took a stand on this role after realizing I can't count on others to protect my children. It has to be me. It has to be YOU! You should feel empowered by that! Embrace it!!! In the end your dh will thank you for it. Mine did.

Quote:

those people that we know who are intact, are not the kind of parents that we are.
Please explain that to me.

I'm glad your here. We're here to help!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm so glad you're here, asking questions!

Please read these links:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

and

http://oknocirc.blogspot.com/

Regarding having one son circ'd and one not, Maya Angelou said it best: "When you know better, you do better."


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## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

Thank you all for your replies and posts. I appreciate what you have to say. I do appreciate all the info you've given, and a lot of it I have already researched and know. I believe my dh knows as well. Here is the thing: Our decision to circ. son #1 wasn't as concrete as "because we want him to look exactly like daddy." Obvously he'll still look like daddy, and obviously all people are different. It was much more of the abstract. I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly. I'll try though. After much debate and talk and all of that, it did come down to "looks" as one of our main decision factors, but it wasn't because of superficial reasons.

The reason we keep talking about "us", is because right now, within this society, the decision does in fact lie with us. Perhaps it shouldn't, but the fact that the debate even exists is proof that is just how things are in society, and I do agree with most everyone on here when I say that doesn't make it right. The female circ. customs in other cultures are very common and I don't agree with them, but I say that as a person who has grown up in a much different culture with different societal views. I studied cultural anthropology for a long time and its still a fasinating subject for me. If my mother was circ and wanted to circ me out of mere tradition how would I feel? Honestly, I don't know? Its a 50/50 sort of question that would depend a lot upon my upbringing and our belief systems and how strongly I felt about upholding tradition and the reasons for it. I've seen lots of stories about women who do go along with female circ. or other "barbaric" customs within their culture because it is what society expects of them. Now I don't agree that it is right at all, but who am I to tell them that my way is better? It really comes down to a matter of belief, and belief isn't something that can be proved, its not science.

Again let me assure everyone that I'm not defending circ or anything like that by saying that, I'm merely pointing out that different people have different traditions and cultures and those traditions and cultures have strong ties within society. This also does not mean that there are people within said societies that don't agree with traditons, for certain there are, but again, it goes both ways. In American society it has become customary to circ. boys. As far as I know every boy in our family has been circ at birth. Breaking that decision, even with all the logical points against circ. isn't so easy, even for academics and scholors who like to educate themselves. When I found out I was having a boy, I was terrified, not just because of the circ. issue, but because the majority of people in my family are women and we are very much a family run by the women. I had no idea how to take care of a little boy. My own father wasn't very active in my life, and the only other boys in our close family were married to my 2 aunts and out of our 7 cousins and siblings only 2 were boys. Only one of them was I somewhat close with. My grandmother raised my twin sister and I and she had raised 3 girls herself.

Okay, so that is a bit of my history, so when I found out I was expecting a boy...I had no basis for comparison. I always thought of myself as open minded and educated, and a feminist. I was definately raised in a family of strong women with strong opinions, but little boys...babies too...remained a mystery to me. My husband, on the other hand came from a huge family. He had an older brother, and a father in his life. His mother has a strong influence on him and raised him with feminist ideals. His sister had 2 little boys as well. He had 25 first cousins alone. Its not a cop out to say that I didn't know anything about little boys, even as educated as I wanted to think I was, I was afraid of making any kind of decision having to do with a penis. Thus, because in our society it is a question asked of the parent "do you want to circ." it was something my dh and I discussed and it was something I did say, "I'll support you whatever you decide."

I hope that clarifies that bit a little. You should also know that as into "natural parenting" as we are, my husband and I are also people who have in the past modified our own bodies. Now we would never tatoo our child or pierce our baby, but I wonder how much of that reasoning would be because its not "okay" within our society to do such. For their are many societys that do tatoo and pierce their infants and children as is custom to that society. Again, I'm not condoning these customs and/or traditions, but merely pointing out that I am the way I am because of the customs and traditions I was raised in.

Yes, babies are born beautiful with their forskin, but my husband and my 1st son are no less beautiful without it. My husband does not feel any animosity towards his mother for circ. him, nor does he want her to appologise for what was the custom of her time. He has no regrets about her decision. I agree with you, he doesn't know what it is like to have an intact penis, but I do have a friend who was circ. and his brother was intact. My friend did not circ his son, he wanted to, but ended up not doing it because their insurance didn't cover it at the time. He says, "if my son has any questions, he can ask his uncle". Another gentleman I met says he was not circ. at birth and later on decided to have it done ( I believe his girlfriend wanted him to do it) he said that he doesn't regret doing it, but it did feel different and that if he could change anything it would be to have his parents have it done to him as a baby so that he wouldn't notice the difference. He said it was noticable, but not enough to make him regret his decision. (It was a very interesting class topic that day and he met with a lot of flaming from the others in the class against circ.)

So you can see why I feel so conflicted, don't you? I'm not debating the evidence, I'm merely saying it isn't as logical as calling circ. "abuse" and "mutilation" b/c within the majority of American society it is such an accepted tradition. Obviously my family and I have considered breaking this tradition or we would not be here discussing it, you know. Its just such a strong emotional tie. Thats is where it gets harder to explain b/c its not really religious, its not really academic...I suppose its more of the tradition of the parents deciding. I don't know anyone who is pissed off that his parents had him circumsized and I'm sure if I did, that would heavily push me to be against circ. but I can't justify being against something when my husband (nor the men in our family) have really no disagreement with. Does that make sense?


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## paphia (Jun 22, 2007)

To me, no, you don't make a lot of sense.

To you, this is all about You, your dh, your ds1, your family, dh's family, society, someone you met a few years ago who had his foreskin cut off...









Where does your son fit in? So far he's a mere afterthought. And to me, that makes no sense. Just because every person you have met has assumed that parents have a right to this decision does NOT make it right. It is very presumptuous of us, as a society, to do something so permanent and life-altering as to remove the genitals of our boys.

This is HIS BODY you are talking about cutting! No one in your family or our society will love him any less for being intact, so let HIM decide for himself when he is old enough. Why can't you do that?


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

It makes total sense, motherearthdancer. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

As a mom who circumcised her firstborn and left her second son intact, I can say that while it defnitely is difficult and scary at first to go against the grain and break with "tradition," it doesn't take long at all (like, a few diaper changes) to get used to the way an intact boy looks and to realize that it is totally normal and not dirty/dangerous/disease-prone/etc. And while well-meaning family members may express concern at first, if they are at all reasonable, their fears are usually put to rest with a simple "My doctor said that it's not recommended anymore."

Also, it is important to realize that the cuture _is_ changing on this issue. I don't know where you live, but where my son was born (progressive neighborhood in the circ-happy Midwest), lots of little boys were left intact, and the parents were the kind of people that I would like to think I had a lot in common with. Intelligent, educated, responsive, attached parents who were open to questioning the dominant culture.

Some traditions are worth preserving. I completely believe that. Sometimes, it makes sense for one person's individuality to be curbed a little for the sake of culture and tradition. However, routine infant circumcison in America is not one of those customs! It has a very shady, perverted history; it doesn't contribute to public health; it has no deep cultural significance; it hasn't been around very long. There's just no reason for anyone to feel socially obligated to put her child through that kind of pain, and to subject him to those risks. You never have to use the word "mutilation" if the subject comes up; you just have to say that it's not necessary and it's a personal choice.

I'm enjoying reading your posts. I hope you'll stick around this forum.

Trust me: It feels so incredibly liberating when they ask you if you're circumcising or not and you say "No." It is such a relief not to have to worry about it.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I agree. And studies show that women overwhelmingly prefer intact men, if that is one of the "cultural" things that worries you. It is also more pleasurable for men.

And this is a very delicate subject for many of us. My ds didn't have issues with his meatal stenosis until he was ~4. After sitting through surgery with him, pulling his meatus apart to help it widen, holding him while he is crying and in severe pain, and dealing with repeated infections, I can never in a million years see why anyone would prefer that.

Would you circumcise your daughter? If not, why not? It is the same thing. It is genital mutilation either way. Would it be ok if you had been? Or your family?


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
within the majority of American society it is such an accepted tradition.

I don't believe it's the majority anymore. And I see you are in Northern Calif. I'm not sure if this matters to you but circ rates are dropping every year around here and I'm pretty sure the majority of boys are being left intact. I'm sorry I don't have a link right now to the rates but I've read them recently.









Good luck with your decision. I agree w/ the pps that he should be left intact.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Slavery used to be a custom here too and thank goodness people eventually took a stand against it. And their are plenty of other examples.

Basically I think you are saying you would circumcise to fit in (and it's the comfortable choice for you, your dh and family) and I guess fitting in, following the crowd is important to a lot of people. I think it's a pretty poor justification for cutting off body parts of a newborn though. I would not want to have to tell my child I cut off part of his penis because it was the popular thing to do at the time. We aren't talking about baby clothes or nursery scenes here but body parts.
I also do not think baby boys are born flawed , they are not in need of immediate 'corrective' surgery on their genitalia. I am sickened that so many parents in this country don't feel the same. It's shameful.


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## Lauren82 (Feb 26, 2007)

:

To the OP, you talk about circ being one of our customs or traditions and then you go on about how you are into natural parenting. Well, I look all around me and see kids in disposible dipes, being shot full of the garbage in vaccines, babies CIO, parents shoving fast food into their kids, etc... Do you consider those cultural traditions too? Because it's EVERYWHERE I look.

I am also what you would call a modified person. I've got several tattoos/piercings and stretched earlobes. I've participated in "ritual" suspensions and energy pulls. If anything, it has made me realize the importance that my children's bodies belong to THEM. I would never have my child tattooed or pierced. I would never modify their bodies in any way shape or form. I don't care what is going on in someone else's tribe in another country regarding modification of their children. To even compare RIC in the US to a cultural rite of passage elsewhere is ridiculous. I do not even agree that THOSE parents have the right to do that to their children. To me it's an argument that falls flat real fast. It does stun me though that you would not pierce or tattoo a child yet you had your sons genitals mutilated?!

It is plenty logical to call RIC mutilation. It is the removal of a healthy, normal and functioning body part for NO REASON. So what if other people think it's okay? It reminds me of the whole "jumping off a bridge" cliche. Other people think it's okay to beat their kids. Other people think it's okay to let babies cry and scream in their cribs alone for hours on end....







:

I do hope that since you say you have already read the info that most people passed on, you will decide to leave son #2 intact. There are plenty of males out there that are pissed that they were circ'd. Why would you even chance having your son be one of them? Who are you to deprive your son of the most sensitive parts of his penis? You would also be depriving his future partner of the experience of a full functioning penis.







:


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paphia* 
To me, no, you don't make a lot of sense.

Yeah, you're making zero sense to me, too.







:

This isn't about whether or not to tell your kids Santa brings their Christmas presents, or other harmless "traditions and customs" we have in the US. We're talking about sexually mutilating a newborn baby for NO REASON!!

There is nothing "abstract" about circumcision. This is not an academic debate in an anthropology class.

Quote:

It really comes down to a matter of belief, and belief isn't something that can be proved, its not science.
Please tell me you're not using _faith_ as an argument for RIC...


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

*Quote:*


Originally Posted by *CalenandEllasmomma* 
*The other aspect of this to consider is that circumcision is like playing russian roulette. The outcome depends completely on who performs the procedure and how they perform it. I think that every circumcision is probably different even if performed by the same physician because every penis is different. Just because your first son has had no complications doesn't mean your second son won't. I think the guilt would be beyond imagination if you chose to circumcise knowing what you now know and he came out with a complication.*


Putting aside the fact that I pointed out to you that my first son is circed and that he has suffered horribly because of it.

Evidently the above bolded part of my post fell on deaf ears. Your belief that circumcision is okay because it hasn't hurt the men in your life doesn't mean your new baby might not suffer a complication. Beyond the fact that you would be taking away his right to a whole body.


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## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

Wow, I really feel like some people feel like I'm some sort of monster for even just discussing it. I'm not saying that I am circ. my son. I'm merely pointing out the reasons we are having such a hard time with the decision. To me its not as simple as logic or statistics. Part of it is the emotional ties to family traditons, and that is hard to debate. I really appreciate the honesty of all of your answers and points of view. It really does make a difference. Again Im not saying these traditions are "right" or "wrong" because again, I don't think like that.

Those of you who pointed out how slavery and such used to be acceptable within tradition are completely right. Just because it is a tradtion doesn't make it right, but it isn't easy to change and those things didn't change overnight. Its just really difficult for me to say that these select beliefs are right and these select beliefs are wrong because of these reasons. Also there are strong emotional ties to tradition. If my husband doesn't consider his body mutilated by his parents, why should he feel that he is mutilating his son? And I think I did post this already, but I honestly don't know how I would feel if my mother had wanted to circ. me. It really would depend on our beliefs and how I was raised and whether or not I felt it was the "right" thing to do. I don't condone it at all as a practice, but again that is because of my beliefs and the way I have evolved as a person. So it really comes down to defining what is mutilation and what isn't. It isn't right that it is seen as "okay" to cut men and not women within our society, and I do see that that view is changing or there would not be formums such as this and I would not hence be here discussing it.

Please understand that I'm not condoning anything, or defending circ or anything like that. I"m merely stating the facts of our specific situation and why we are having trouble making the decision (again). I'm hoping to learn a lot from these discussions.


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Bottom line as someone else stated: we're talking about cutting off a piece of someone else's body without their consent. Socially acceptable? Maybe in some people's eyes, but I assure you if you tried to do it to another unconsenting adult it would not be acceptable. The chain of abuse has to stop somewhere, and personally, I believe that you have to "be the change you want to see in the world" as Gandhi said.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

This discussion has been beautifully civil so far and I am asking you all-*please* make a real effort to let it remain so. You are having a discussion, one in which the OP's feelings and beliefs can change and be worked through as she hears your points.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

Mod: one in which the OP's feelings and beliefs can change and be worked through as she hears your points.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Mind giving her a chance? Do it for me.


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## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

oh, I also forgot to add...just as an academic thought...
I totally agree with everyone that just because another culture does it doesn't make it right, but in my opinion it doesn't invalidate the practices and/or beliefs of the people of said customs who practice said traditions. I wasn't saying that just because some cultures modify their kids bodies that makes it okay for me...no no no...please don't misunderstand. I was merely sayng that as a person who studies such varied beliefs and customs (which yes, have some effect on my own beliefs and customs) it is difficult for me to say "their" way is wrong, just because I disagree with it. Is that a clearer way of saying things?

so, no, I wasn't using faith as a debate for my specific situation..not in the sense that it was a tradition in my belief system to circ. ITs not. I was merely pointing out that such things are linked together and the fact that at somepoint in my ancestry the tradion of circ. males was a part of the belief system and left its mark (literally) on our family. My other point was that I can't condem a society for their practices that are based on religious reasoning. I wouldn't want anyone to condem my traditions based out of my beliefs, therefore I, myself, do not decide what is "right" and "wrong", I just merely see it as a difference in customs and beliefs. Perhaps I'm making it even more confusing. I don't mean to make it sound like Im defending circ. at all. I'm merely being honest with the facts as I see them and how I take them into my head. Again, I'm here to learn and see if by discussing the issue here my perspective will once more adapt and how that will effect the decision we will have to make regarding circ. son #2


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom* 
Mind giving her a chance? Do it for me.

I'm willing to give her a chance and talk through this with her. I made this mistake once and learning the truth about circ has horrified me and forever changed my mind as well as my husbands. Unfortunately this info came to late for my poor sweet baby boy.

OP please continue asking questions and I will try to answer them.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

OP: Its just really difficult for me to say that these select beliefs are right and these select beliefs are wrong

What do you think about the belief in pedophilia? I certainly hope you don't judge people poorly who have a "belief system" that it is ok to have sex with little children....


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
...it is the emotional ties to family traditons, and that is hard to debate.

... Also there are strong emotional ties to tradition.

... So it really comes down to defining what is mutilation and what isn't.


I just don't get this. Do you really think your family and your DH's family have a *"strong emotional tie"* to circumcision?? Because most families perpetrate this "tradition" out of ignorance and _perceived_ societal pressure.

So, how DO you define mutilation?







:


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalenandEllasmomma* 
Evidently the above bolded part of my post fell on deaf ears. Your belief that circumcision is okay because it hasn't hurt the men in your life doesn't mean your new baby might not suffer a complication. Beyond the fact that you would be taking away his right to a whole body.


It didn't fall on deaf ears with me and I appreciate you making that point.









Just because the OP doesn't personally know any men that were adversely affected by circ, doesn't mean we don't exist. Even after going through a re-circ and meatotomy as a child which were CAUSED by the original circ, I never questioned why I had a wreck of a penis for a number of years. The cultural brainwashing is so pervasive it can really cloud your thinking on this issue.

And I wouldn't be so sure that all the circ men you know haven't been affected in some way. You see, it's not socially permissible for a circ'd man to question it or express any dissatisfaction with it. One of the few male friends I've discussed this issue with in any kind of depth claimed it was "better" after deciding to circ his third son. Of course he couldn't answer how he would actually KNOW that. And with further discussion it turned out he actually had two circ-caused physical abnormalities and even admitted that the only real good sensation he had on his penis was a very small area on top between his circ scar and glans. So, even if there are a lot of men that can live with it, they haven't necessarily escaped some of the many possible bad effects.


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalenandEllasmomma* 
I'm willing to give her a chance and talk through this with her.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
I totally agree with everyone that just because another culture does it doesn't make it right, but in my opinion it doesn't invalidate the practices and/or beliefs of the people of said customs who practice said traditions.

I think I understand why you feel that way, but for me... I cannot respect a tradition which alters another person's body *without their consent*. My rights end where the newborn's begin, that sort of thing.

Quote:

My other point was that I can't condem a society for their practices that are based on religious reasoning.
We cannot discuss religious circumcision in this forum.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I love my family traditions. Clam chowder on Memorial Day, croquet and badminton on Labor Day, spending the Fourth of July at my cousins' pool. . . . But when it comes to my childrens' well-being, I find it VERY easy to buck tradition. I nurse my children against family tradition and over vocal naysaying by my maternal grandmother. They aren't vaxed. We're vegetarian. We don't spank or slap. We homeschool. We cosleep, again over vocal protest by my grandmother. I've educated her with a smile, and if she hasn't come to agree with me, she and everyone else have at least had the grace to accept that we know our minds, have done our research, and we care about our children. My sister and sister-in-law have both adopted many of our philosophies and by this point everyone has told us at some point that we have lovely, happy, well-behaved children. So we must be doing something right. Traditions have to start somewhere, and I think we've created some valuable new traditions for our family.

But when it comes down to it: My children come first. It's that simple.


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## tamagotchi (Oct 16, 2005)

motherearthdancer, I live in the east bay not very far away from you. The majority of boys in our area are intact. The trend going forward is for even more people to leave their boys intact. Whatever the tradition has been in your family in the past, your family is not the only community your boys will ever know. Your boys will be growing up in a wider community in which intactness will be, more and more, the norm.


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## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

I agree with you. It may just be the men I know who are circ. just don't realize how much of it has had an effect on them. That is a very good point.

[_What do you think about the belief in pedophilia? I certainly hope you don't judge people poorly who have a "belief system" that it is ok to have sex with little children...._

of course I don't condone pedofhilia either, but there are many cultures with views on sex that our culture would find appaling and wrong that they see as acceptable. Again, a lot of our cultural beliefs have to do with our societal views on sex and gender (this includes issues of circ), I don't know how I would feel had I been raised in another culture regarding these issues, all I can draw from is what I have grown from and a lot of my personal experience with circ. has not been "bad". This does not mean that I WANT to do it to my son. Its still a tough decision for me. I do consider myself educated and want to make intellectual decisions so I do research beliefs of other customs and cultures. I've also obviously looked into my own. The decision on whether or not to circ son number 2 is very difficult for me personally for all these reasons.

I do think that comparing a person who circ. their son to a pedophile is a bit much..or as a child abuser. I don't see my Aunts, my sister in law, or my mother-in-law this way despite the fact that they chose to circ. their boys. Now my family and in-laws already disagree with a lot of the things my husand and I have decided to do among them extended breastfeeding, the possibility of tandem nursing, cloth diapering, and co-sleeping. but at the same time, i'm not as natural as some "natural" parents are in the sense that we do eat meat and fast food (at least I'm not opposed to it...being a diabetic I eat a bit healther than the rest of the family). I just feel like its a lot to condem a person on (circ. of ones son).


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

You're not going to find a lot of people on here who are "Crunchily Perfected".







But most of us do try to "do better now that we know better". That is the point.

And I see the correlation. You are the one who brought up whether it is ok to question and go against your cultural norms and whether you have a right to be against something in other cultures. Circumcision is genital mutilation whether male or female. It is assaulting another's body without their permission. This is a part of some cultures, including our own, though that trend is steeply falling in practice.

I had never seen intact penises until recently. I was raised Jewish and had no idea. At all. Once I knew what was going on and after the horrors I went through with my son, I vowed never to do something again just because "My culture does it". Especially when it comes to hurting my child.

The child always comes first. If your son someday wants to be circ'd, let him research it and make that decision when he is capable. Many men are now restoring. They had NO choice in the matter. Wouldn't you prefer your son had the choice to keep part of his body?


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

There are plenty of parents who are ignorant of the harms of circumcision, who believe the myths they've always heard- that it doesn't hurt, it's cleaner, women prefer it, everyone does it, if you don't cut it off it will get cancer, there are no lasting negative effects, that intact boys are traumatized by circumcised boys who will make fun of them in the locker room, and on and on. I wouldn't go so far as to condemn them; they need education. You're a tough one, because you seem educated enough to know that the myths are just that... and yet you still consider it.

Have you brought up circumcision around your family? You believe they'd want you to continue the tradition, but if they knew all that you know, would that still be the case? Or would they say, like my mother-in-law for instance "When my son was born they told me that I had to do it. They said he would get cancer if I didn't." She understood that now, knowing there's no reason to do it, we left our son intact.

I wonder if you know all of the negative effects circumcision can have on a man's sex life. There are things that some circumcised men and their partners take for granted as 'normal', which are actually caused by circumcision. Also, have you done research into what is lost when the foreskin is cut off?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 

Yes, babies are born beautiful with their foreskin, but my husband and my 1st son are no less beautiful without it. My husband does not feel any animosity towards his mother for circ. him, nor does he want her to appologise for what was the custom of her time. He has no regrets about her decision


I'm glad you're still with us! I love these productive discussions!

You really don't have to feel regret (or anger at your MIL, or anything else) to leave this son intact.

My dh is circ'd. He's not mad at his mom. And you're right, he's still beautiful. BUT we saw NO compelling reason to put our son through the pain and trauma of circumcision. We saw no reason to cut a part of his body off. So we didn't.

It doesn't have to be so polarized, so either/or. You're not calling your dh's penis wrong (or your current son's penis wrong) by making a different choice this time. It would be ok to apologize to son #1 for his circumcision, but you certainly don't have to.

Let's imagine for a minute....please bear with me here. Pretend that you're a single mom, no other children, and there are no other men in your life, so you have no other penis to "compare" to.

You come here to Mothering and read about circumcision. How it's painful and traumatic. How it could disrupt breastfeeding. How the rates are dropping dramatically. How SOME boys end up with horrible complications, or infections. Some boys even die from infections following the procedure. SOME adult men have sexual complications or impotence. SOME adult men are mad at their mothers for cutting them. There are no medical reasons to do it. Etc. Etc. Etc. Based on that information alone (and not the whole "family history,") isn't it a clear choice to leave your son intact?

THAT is what you should base your decision on........what is right for THIS SON, THIS TIME (not based on your previous parenting decisions or your in-laws previous parenting decisions.)

Again, it doesn't "lessen" your son#1 or your husband to not circumcise this son. I promise! You don't have to call it mutilation. You don't have to be hard-core about it, like some of us here are. Just, simply and very easily, don't circumcise your son. Just don't. It's so easy!

If you're worried about how to explain it to your dh or your son, we'll continue to walk you through that.









Any other questions, feel free to ask.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Circumcision hasn't been common in the U.S. for very long in the historical view of things. When did your family's tradition of circumcising start? Why did it start? If you don't know these answers already, I'd be seriously questioning my emotional ties to those traditions if I were you.


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## *mama moose* (Oct 12, 2006)

I know we talked about this on the phone before (we're friends IRL), but I had some things I wanted to say, respectfully, after reading this thread.
The first being:
An it harm none, do as ye will.
This is one big thing that has drawn me to Wicca/Paganism, as its something I really try to follow and really feel in my heart, and I think its totally relevent here. Newborns CAN feel pain, it is a proven fact, and it just doesn't seem logical to me to cause ANYONE pain for a cosmetic reason (unless they make the decision in their own right logical mind to do that, such as tattoo on a consenting adult). I know you would never spank a child, and neither would I, and that is certainly a tradition that is widely accepted in America. I mean, you and I have both seen A. at mom's group hit her kids in public and no one bats an eye because its an accepted behavior. We have both stepped away from that tradition and said "no, it ends with me." and why? For me its because it hurts my child and can be damaging down the road. However, I do know plenty of people who claim they were never hurt by spanking do not wish for an apology from their parents, etc. I still would NEVER spank my child, because in my heart, I know it it wrong to hurt another human being, especially one as fragile as a child.
No one in your family (if I'm recalling correctly) has nursed their babies past 9 months, right? but you didnt and wouldnt wean your child that early just to follow tradition. So you stepped away from the tradition of early weaning because you knew what was best for your children, and decided to follow that road. I think the decision over circ is similar in that the evidence is overwhelming that leaving a penis intact is the best thing for the person the penis belongs to, and attachment parenting is about making the best decisions we can for our children to grow up into healthy secure adults.

My DH is also circed, and says it doesn't bother him either way, but after I presented info to him he decided with me that if August was a boy we would not circ her (same with future kids), and you know Sean is laid back and doesn't get passionate about well....anything.....he pretty much decided to agree with me because theres not a glaring reason TO circ. I mean, if we wanted her to look like me (since I'm the same gender parent as her) I'd give her tattoos, piercings, shave some bald spots in her hair to mimic the alopecia I have







, it just isn't logical when you think of it like that. But I know how it is! you hear that OVER and OVER as a reason to circ, and its hard to not perpertuate that "idea".

If we are friends as long as I hope we are







: and I someday have a son, I'm sure our boys will play together and your DS's may someday see my DS's penis, which will be intact. There is still plenty of chance for DS1 to ask WHY he was circed, even if you do end up circing DS2. I think in this day and age its an unavoidable question.
I think the most important thing I wanted to say, is that I believe all children are created in the image of the god and goddess (sorry for discussing religion MDC mods, we are of the same faith however, and again, friends IRL, so I think it it applies), and that we are blessed with ALL parts of our bodies. If my daughter grows up and decides to get breast implants or a "nose job" that is her decision, but I would never make that choice for her a birth, when she has no voice or say in the matter, when she has complete trust in me to NOT hurt her.
I do really hope you chose to leave DS2 intact, and if he gets older and makes that decision, it is his to make. The thing about the removal of body parts is that HE can, at any time in his adulthood, go and get it done, but he can NEVER in his adulthood reverse what has been done and get this vital part of his body back (yes, some men try to restore, but as far as I know it is painful and very difficult, and never will they have the sensation/nerve endings they would have if they were never circed). The forskin has has many nerve endings as the clitoris, and I for one will stand up and say I love my clitoris! custom or not, I would never want someone to take that vital sexual organ away from me, especially when the custom was created to keep me from experiencing sexual pleasure (one reason male circ became a tradition to stop men from masturbating, if I recall correctly, and I know for a fact that the sexual pleasure for men is lessened by having the most sensitive part of the penis cut off.)

anyways, I rambled on forever, much longer than I intended. But I'm very glad you are thinking about this, and like I said I really hope you decide to leave DS2 intact. I agree with PP's who quoted "when you know better you do better", I think that is such an important thing to keep in mind.

Phoenix


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## DklovesMkandJK (Jun 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I'm glad you're still with us! I love these productive discussions!

You really don't have to feel regret (or anger at your MIL, or anything else) to leave this son intact.

My dh is circ'd. He's not mad at his mom. And you're right, he's still beautiful. BUT we saw NO compelling reason to put our son through the pain and trauma of circumcision. We saw no reason to cut a part of his body off. So we didn't.

It doesn't have to be so polarized, so either/or. You're not calling your dh's penis wrong (or your current son's penis wrong) by making a different choice this time. It would be ok to apologize to son #1 for his circumcision, but you certainly don't have to.

Let's imagine for a minute....please bear with me here. Pretend that you're a single mom, no other children, and there are no other men in your life, so you have no other penis to "compare" to.

You come here to Mothering and read about circumcision. How it's painful and traumatic. How it could disrupt breastfeeding. How the rates are dropping dramatically. How SOME boys end up with horrible complications, or infections. Some boys even die from infections following the procedure. SOME adult men have sexual complications or impotence. SOME adult men are mad at their mothers for cutting them. There are no medical reasons to do it. Etc. Etc. Etc. Based on that information alone (and not the whole "family history,") isn't it a clear choice to leave your son intact?

THAT is what you should base your decision on........what is right for THIS SON, THIS TIME (not based on your previous parenting decisions or your in-laws previous parenting decisions.)

Again, it doesn't "lessen" your son#1 or your husband to not circumcise this son. I promise! You don't have to call it mutilation. You don't have to be hard-core about it, like some of us here are. Just, simply and very easily, don't circumcise your son. Just don't. It's so easy!

If you're worried about how to explain it to your dh or your son, we'll continue to walk you through that.









Any other questions, feel free to ask.









:


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## molarmama (Dec 14, 2006)

I watched my second son's circumcision. It was horrific. I will never do this to another son. I don't care what my family thinks or my husbands family. I've seen threads in this forum linking to youtube videos of circumcision. Watch one, with the sound on, and then ask yourself if you could do that to your child. My son also had adhesions and a skin bridge that had to be surgically cut again. Circumcising doesn't prevent problems, it creates them.


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## *mama moose* (Oct 12, 2006)

also, and this seems lame compared to my other reasons, but medi-cal DOES NOT cover infant circ. so you would be paying out of pocket for this cosmetic surgery.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

I am just sitting here shaking my head knowing that you consider circumcision a family tradition. Yikes!


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Your sons will actually be in the minoroty being circed in California (which has had circ rates below 50% since 1980 or so and currently has less than 35% of boys being circ'ed). Nation wide the circ rate is only at about 50% and it is steadily decreasing. My SIL circed her son and she says it was funny that they thought it would be a good thing because he would look like the other kids only to find out all the other kids (like my sons) were not circ'ed.

Just one more thing to consider in making this decision. For me it comes down to respecting you children's bodies. I teach them to respect their own bodies and respect other people's bodies (this means hitting and such but also getting to say 'no' and such). Because this matters to me, I respect their bodies by leaving them intact.


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## Hippiemommie (Jul 3, 2005)

You said your first son cried when he had his surgery. Were you there to watch the procedure? I've seen it in real life and it's one reason I quit the nursing program. Futher my brother has a botched circ. There is a very high rate of mistakes. My Mother nursed me for 3.5 years until I self weaned. When the doctor brought my brother back into the room he wouldn't latch on and wanted nothing to do with my Mother. To this day they have NEVER had a close relationship. She blames the circ on this. I also have a friend who's son "Will never have a regular sex life." His penis is hidden under a mound of scar tissue and the poor guy has already had many surgeries to try to fix this.

For your DH to say that he regreted getting his done he would have had to have a choice and know what the other side is like. If he had sex with a foreskin he might then wish it wouldn't have been done to him.

Your son will never know that his penis isn't like his Dad's. My brother never knew, and still doesn't know that my Dad is intact. The penis of a boy and the penis of a man has many more differences that he will notice first (size, hair, ect).

What if your son has a big penis once he hits puberty? If the doctor cuts off too much (which could be any amount) he will have painful errections EVERY time where the hair is pulled up on to the shaft of the penis.

He will also be in the minority when he goes to school. Everyday more parents are choosing not to circ their sons.

It truely isn't your choice or at least shouldn't be. It's a cruel procedure. Think of what your son is thinking. This little man comes into the world after labor which has to be hard on the guy. Then all he knows is his Mother and her love and you send him off to have part of his most sensitive organ removed? The pain and shock he must feel. How horrible his coming into the world is. You are the only person in the world who can protect him. That is your duty as a Mother.


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## InDaPhunk (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
Obvously he'll still look like daddy, and obviously all people are different. *It was much more of the abstract*. I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly. I'll try though. After much debate and talk and all of that, it did come down to "looks" as one of our main decision factors, but it wasn't because of superficial reasons.

Are you talking about "cultural conditioning"? That vague, underlying unease that circumcising is "just right" for some reason?

From your personal descriptions, you seem to be an MDC Mom more of the tat getting, body piercing, and combat boot wearing species rather than the patchouli wearing, armpit hair growing, organic food eating species







. I'm trying to get where you're coming from, and I think I get why this is so hard for you and DH. Well, not _hard_ for you but why you're giving it so much thought when you're obviously a rational person that has no problem bucking more "normal" cultural and societal traditions (forgive my overuse of quotations). You're not coming from a more "sterotypical" place of choosing to circumcise. To you, cultural norms and mores vastly influence a person's choices- whether the choice is to adhere to them or ignore them, they must be recognized and thoughtfully considered- and to you these body modifications hold meaning and substance, and circumcision could possibly be another one of these "body modifications" that hold meaning for your family.

Trying to examine this issue in a purely academic sense will probably not be enough to get you to a decision. Even though you talk about your and DHs emotions regarding this, it seems to me that you may be considering it in a similar manner as the different cultures you studied. You're going to have to get your brain to diverge from studying these cultures in an academic way- fully supporting their decisions to put bracelets on their infants that will stay there for forever (or tats, large earrings, lip inserts, etc) because that is the complete norm in their culture- while finding a way to decide that you, as a parent, in this instance, will not modify your child's body, that you will leave it up to your DS to decide if and when he wants to modify his body in whichever way he wants it, be it a circumcision or nosering or whatever. I believe it's called cognitive dissonance.

I think at some point you're going to have to just make a choice about whether you feel it's right or wrong.

I could be way off base on all of this and if I am I apologize.

BTW, I'm a Military MDC mom so don't fit in anywhere







. Though DH does own a pair of combat boots, but he has to wear them to work.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I haven't read the entire thread but I did see this:

Quote:

I don't know anyone who is pissed off that his parents had him circumsized and I'm sure if I did, that would heavily push me to be against circ.
You are more than welcomed to email my husband - his circumcision and sex was absolutely FINE (even had some "extra" skin) until he had a penile growth spurt...then his erections were so tight that on several occations his penis split open (about an inch long section just tore open). The skin would also stretch so tight that even if it didn't tear, half or more of his penis was numb. Sex? God sex was miserable...no matter how much lube was used there was so much friction, chafing, and even some vaginal tearing/bleeding.

My mother in law should have kept her aesthetic preferences out of our bed and off of someone else's body. If you like cut penises, fine. But your son or his wife/husband may not feel the same way in 20/30 years...especially if he stays in California where only 30% of other penises his age are that way.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

You know, I get the whole cultural relativism thing. Really, I do. I remember having very passionate discussions with other young feminists at my university (many moons ago now) as to what the appropriate terminology for female circumcision should be -- whether female genital mutilation was a construct by white women elites to force poor women of color to give up their sacred traditions of many generations, etc.

But you know what -- I'm not a cultural relativist any more. I believe that all humans have a fundamental human right to be free to make their own choices about their own bodies. There is not a single tradition of involuntary body modification that I would call justified in the face of that absolute right to personal integrity. I think "tradition" is an excuse used by people with more power to force their will on people with less power. It doesn't benefit the people with less power -- it just demonstrates to them physically that they are subordinate and have no power even to control the most basic aspects of their lives, such as how their bodies should look and function.

Foot binding had a very long and illustrious cultural history behind it, and about one of the only good things Mao Zedong and the Communist Party ever did for China was abolishing that despicable tradition outright. There are many other examples, and cultural anthropologists can come up with many examples of how societies throughout history have modified the body, especially the genitals, in serious, painful, and harmful ways. Just because these traditions have a history behind them, though, does not legitimize them. Slavery and human sacrifice, not to mention violence against women, have equally long histories, and are equally wrong in all times and places.

Your son's body is his own. It belongs to him. He is not your property. You should not mark him as slaveowners brand their slaves in the name of perpetuating some misguided notion of tradition.

To do so, knowing what you know now about circumcision, would be beyond wrong. It would be an act of supreme hubris, demonstrating your power and control over your son's body at the weakest and most vulnerable time of his life, and it would be an act of deliberate ignorance, knowingly and willfully turning a blind eye to the harm that circumcision WILL cause your son whether or not he suffers any complications. It would be an act of deliberate harm to your son, and your excuse of "tradition" would be a thin fig leaf indeed.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Got a pissed off husband here, too.







I'm not sure you can swing a dead cat in this forum without hitting a guy pissed off about being circ'ed, in fact.

Does anyone have the wreckingboy link? That is a poignant piece by a man who is very unhappy he was cut.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

'Old Tradition' in your family:
-pain
-loss of flesh
-loss of sensation
-risks of infection, death, buried penis, webbed penis, trapped penis, adhesions, meatal stenosis, tight erections, scarring, etc
-infant strapped down to plastic board
-wound care

'New Tradition' in your family:
-gentle welcome to the world
-no pain or suffering
-no wound care
-no wondering if his cries are for the pain from a wound you inflicted for no medical reason
-a whole body, just the way he was intended to be


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

One more thought. Let's talk about breastfeeding for a minute, since you're an AP mama.

Is formula a "family tradition"? Does it become a family tradition if several generations have used it? Should you automatically formula-feed if your dh was formula-fed, and he turned out fine? Should you automatically formula-feed if you did with your first child, and he turned out fine? Should you somewhat discount people who tell you the benefits of breastfeeding, or the dangers of formula, just because you haven't seen any of that firsthand? Should you really feel tied to the past with this parenting decision?

Should you breastfeed only if your dh feels anger at your MIL for formula-feeding him? Should you forego breastfeeding just because he doesn't feel anger?

You know where I'm going with this, right?


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

i've read through all the posts.

to the OP: i can see that you are sincere in your conflicted thoughts on this subject, but i really think that you are "over thinking" it by worrying about cultural traditions, family matriarchies and your husband's feelings about his own penis.

i would try to think about this in real simple terms and see if that gives you the clear decision you seem to want.

will receiving a circumcision cause pain and suffering to your soon-to-be-born child? YES

is it a procedure that is medically necessary to save his life or improve the quality of his life? NO


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I here a lot of intellectual talk and relativity discussion. Bottom line here is that this is about strapping down YOUR newborn and ripping the fused foreskin from the glans and cutting it off.

Honestly I think you should watch the circ video and imagine it's your baby lying there. All intellectual discussion aside. We are talking about YOUR newborn, having his genitals cut.

Your arguments seem to be so lacking in emotion.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

motherearthdancer, your scaring the he!! out of me







As I read your post I'm reminded of the studies conducted by an anthropologist, (your the expert, I forgot his name and I can't find it online either, but I bet you know who I'm talking about) who strapped a person into a chair, put electrodes on his body and then ordered people into another room one at time. He would tell them they had to shock this person in the chair. The person in the chair would scream and the subject would hear it. The scientist instructed his subjects to keep shocking the victim. They did. The victim would plead for help. Scientist would pressure the subject to continue to hurt the victim until the subject stopped. Only a few stopped. This test was conducted to see how far a person would go to hurt someone out of social pressure.

It sounds to me like your a victim of traditional pressure. You continue to let this control you at the cost of your helpless newborn. You really must be careful.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire


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## ndunn (Mar 22, 2006)

Just on the subject of pediophilia & abuse....

Sexual Assult (wikipedia): Sexual assault is *any physical contact of a sexual nature without voluntary consent*. Sexual assault can take place by anyone and anywhere. While associated with rape, sexual assault is much broader and the specifics may vary according to social, political or legal definition.

Circumcision: Handing your child over to a *stranger* when they are a tender few days old (and should not even leave your arms) to be strapped down on a cold surface and have part of their genitals touched, ripped open, and sliced off.

I don't know about anyone else, but apart from the actual "sex" part of sexual assult, I don't see a huge difference.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Motherearthdancer, You have elicited an incredible volume of advice from a lot of people who are very sincere in their efforts to help you with your "dilemma". I hope you take them seriously.

Would it help to look at this issue from a totaly logical standpoint - not one confused with tradition, or culture, or feelings ?

Is it logical to amputate a normal, useful, erogenous, valuable body part ?

Is it logical to deprive your son of his right to modify his own body, should he choose to do so ? And it's highly unlikely he would choose to be circumcised. Once a foreskin is gone - it's GONE and can never be put back.

Is it logical to put your precious son at risk for complications or even death ?
Yes many children die each year from circumcision - but most of these tragedies are carefuly disguised by the medical profession and blamed on other things like the anasthesia or bleeding - But none of them would have happened if the child had been left intact.

One more thing - there are thousands of men in North America who are REALLY PISSED that they have been deprived of their most erogenous and sensitive body part - Just check out www.norm.org .

There really is no decision to be made.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer*
I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1

This really stood out for me.

Yes, you should apologize. Hurting your next son, to cover up for a mistake that has become "tradition" does nothing to further honest communication and trust in your family. Apologize, cry, promise to never hurt him again and store away some information about restoration for when he is older.
Something he needed was taken away from him without his consent. He will notice someday and you WILL be called out. The rate of genital cutting in your area is comparatively low. He will see a normal penis one day and you both will need answers. You cannot hide the truth by cutting his brother's penis.

The *only problem* with leaving your son intact would be that you would have to spend some time (in the furture) explaining and some time now doing some soul-searching and finding the courage to leave your son the way he was meant to be. Or you continue to spend time rationalizing and desperately trying to justify what has already been done and why its okay to do it again when _you know_ that it is not right to follow the herd.


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## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

First of all I want to assure everyone that I am taking all of this very seriously. I really did want to know when I asked or I wouldn't even have posted or continue to post, so thank you for taking the time to reply and everything.

My husband and I have had our minds working on this all day today, and I think he feels really...well, I know he feels like everyone on here hates him and they don't even know him. He seems really hurt by a lot of what has been posted. We are not ones to make a decision like this overnight, so I appologise if you don't hear from me for the next few days. We are taking a vacation to visit a friend who is getting married. So I'm not avoiding the convo or disappearing, its just so happened that now is our chance to get away and we are taking it.

Everyone makes very good points and I can definately see how passionate of a topic it is for everyone. I'd also like to state for the record that I have never said that I "wanted" to circ. my son, or that I planned on doing it. The fact is we did it to the first and it was a rough decison to make. I still can't give a good concrete reason as to why, but I do want to make it clear that it wasn't just for "looks" or "tradition" or any of that....those were just some of the things that we discussed this time and last time regarding what we should do. I think, after all of this discussion, that what it boils down to is that we really didn't have a lot of support to not circ. Everyone we knew had. The only reason I got into cloth diapering and breastfeeding was becasue I ran into a person I knew from college at a festival over the summer I was pregnant with son #1. She kept in touch with me and e-mailed me and really pushed me to keep at nursing. I really feel like if it had not been for her, I wouldn't be where I am today with nursing. She also got me into baby slings and cloth diapers, although the cloth diapers became a necessity simply because we were so poor that we had to wash everything by hand and didn't have any money to spend on diapers. I didn't even have a car and I literally walked or took public transit everywhere (my ped. office was about 3 hours away from my home and if my son was sick, I'd still have to plan the trip for 2 busses and one train ride one way). With circ. we had no support. Do I think I would circ. my son if I had to choose right now...no. I have my reasons why and they are very similar to what everyone here has talked about. Should my husband want to circ. for whatever reason....I have to admit that I'd have a hard time saying no to him. It sounds aweful to say it that way, and I'm not sure how to type it. I dont' think he will want to when the time comes this time, but we are not making any decisions overnight and we will talk about this again and again as is cusomary in our relationship.

Thank you again for the civil discussion. I do appreciate it. Just for the record..LOL...I do have 2 tats, but i'm not into combat boots and I no longer have piercings (although I did before my trip to Haiti 2 years before my son was born). I'm not the vegan, hippie...etc mom either (forgive me for not posting the exact quote...I'm much to tired to look it up right now). I'm not exactly sure where I fit in within the natural parenting world. I think I am very much in the middle. As I have been outed, yes, I am Wiccan, but eclectic, and none of my other family members are exactly supporters of my decision to bf, baby wear, co-sleep...etc. I am close with my family however and value their opinions even when we don't agree. I'm not the academic mom, although I admit I love learning about people, tradition, culture, society..etc (as if evident in my posts).

So...sorry to leave you all in the midst of starting such a heated debate. I look forward to reading more when we return. I want to assure you that your postings have not been in vain and that I am hearing what you have to say. I guess my only requst as far as that goes, is please don't attack my husband. It does put me in a defensive postion as we've been through some really tough times lately together. You many not agree with my support of him or the fact that I may allow him the final say but I just ask that you don't judge him if you don't know him. He's a good man. He's not perfect, but I am very much in love with him. He's just as confused as I am, if not more and I think that I'm more likely to convince him not to circ. if he feels validated. I'm not asking you to validate him, or agree with him, just don't talk about him if its not constructive. I really think that you catch more flies with honey than not. Otherwise, feel free to say what you like about me...I did put myself out here for this and I'll be okay.

okay, now I'm babbling again and its late and I should be asleep so I'm not even sure if I'm making sense at this point. Thanks again and see you when we get back in a week.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

There's why your husband wants to. That's exactly why.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I haven't re-read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone attacking your husband.

Please, read this article that Fi. just posted. It's very important.

No matter how your dh feels about his penis, whether he loves being circed, hates being circed, or is indifferent, keep in mind that this is not your dh's penis that's up for discussion -- and modification -- it's your son's. Your dh may think being circed is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and since he already is circed, maybe that's a good thing for him.

But his feelings about his penis are just that, feelings. They are valid, but they are not the basis for a decision about how your son's penis should look and whether you should cut off half the skin system and half the nerve endings of your son's penis. Your son's penis is part of his body and no one else will ever know what it's like to be inside his body. Certainly your dh won't.

Just as you can't avoid apologizing to ds #1 if/when the subject comes up, you can't make your dh feel better about himself by agreeing to circumcise ds#2. That's not your job. Your job is to protect your son from unnecessary bodily modifications that harm him and benefit no one.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Case in point here, I've got a friend who's barely out of high school. Great guy, never really thought twice about circumcision until he met me. Why? Because of my son, of course.

Then he started thinking about it and looking into it. Gears started turning. He's found out what he's missing and hates it. It makes him feel sad, maybe even a bit angry, that his parents stuck their noses into his sex life before he could even protest. This could be your son...and of course it may not be. But why take that gamble when the only people who can lose isn't even you isn't you and your husband...it's your son and his wife (or husband). What's going on in your bed is fine and dandy with you right? No need to stick your nose in someone else's sex life because of your own personal preferences.

In terms of "locker room" - I'd rather explain to my kids why I *didn't* cut a piece off of him ("that's how you were born, it's normal and healthy") and that's why they look different as opposed to explaining why I *did* cut a piece off of them ("we liked the way it looks/everyone else is doing it").

And I'll end my post with this absolutely awesome quote:

"...The poorest argument of all for circumcision, yet the most popular is that everyone is doing it. The same mothers who will someday ask their sons "if all your friends jumped off of a bridge, would you do it too?" are lining up on a bridge of their own and taking their sons with them...."
http://www.bmezine.com/ritual/A30101/cltcircu.html

Honestly, like Quirky said...only your son is going to know how he feels about his body and his penis as an adult. If he really does hate his foreskin at least he can choose to remove it (with proper pain killer, without a wound sitting in a dirty diaper, and he can get the style of cut that he wants)...what's gonna happen if he wants it back? He'll be in the same boat as my friend up there.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
I haven't re-read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone attacking your husband.

Please, read this article that Fi. just posted. It's very important.

No matter how your dh feels about his penis, whether he loves being circed, hates being circed, or is indifferent, keep in mind that this is not your dh's penis that's up for discussion -- and modification -- it's your son's. Your dh may think being circed is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and since he already is circed, maybe that's a good thing for him.

But his feelings about his penis are just that, feelings. They are valid, but they are not the basis for a decision about how your son's penis should look and whether you should cut off half the skin system and half the nerve endings of your son's penis. Your son's penis is part of his body and no one else will ever know what it's like to be inside his body. Certainly your dh won't.

Just as you can't avoid apologizing to ds #1 if/when the subject comes up, you can't make your dh feel better about himself by agreeing to circumcise ds#2. That's not your job. Your job is to protect your son from unnecessary bodily modifications that harm him and benefit no one.









:

Quirky said it perfectly. Please listen to her. And read the article Fi posted. That one is NOT to show your dh. It's just for YOU to read and think about. Here's another article for just you:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

Enjoy the wedding.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And we've all tried to say it, but let me say it again:

*you don't have to make the same decision again. It's ok to make a different decision.*

I've changed my mind on vaxes. I used to be so pro-vax it wasn't even funny. Now I'm anti-vax. My daughter got the whole range of shots....everything that was available for kids. My son hasn't, because I learned more in the interim. It's really ok, and actually responsible, to make new parenting decisions based on new information.

The son inside you is NOT a clone of his father or his brother. Don't treat him like one.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ndunn* 
Just on the subject of pediophilia & abuse....

Sexual Assult (wikipedia): Sexual assault is *any physical contact of a sexual nature without voluntary consent*. Sexual assault can take place by anyone and anywhere. While associated with rape, sexual assault is much broader and the specifics may vary according to social, political or legal definition.

Circumcision: Handing your child over to a *stranger* when they are a tender few days old (and should not even leave your arms) to be strapped down on a cold surface and have part of their genitals touched, ripped open, and sliced off.

I don't know about anyone else, but apart from the actual "sex" part of sexual assult, I don't see a huge difference.

I don't see ANY difference. What about when the doctor stimulates the penis so that it becomes erect so he/she knows how much skin to cut off. So baby's very first sexual arousal happens because the doctor wants to know how much skin to lop off.


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1, but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc.


I've been reading this thread since the beginning. What I'm really having a hard to with is this section I've quoted. What I can't stop thinking about is the conversation you will inevitably be having in the future. I don't understand why you circ. ds1. But in my thought it goes a little like this.

you and dh "ds1 we are sorry we circ. you as a baby. We did the research and knew it was not a good thing, but we did it anyway because-(fill in the blank)-.
DS2 we still knew it wasn't a good thing to do, but we did it to you anyway so ds1 wouldn't be alone"

That conversation alone would be enough to keep me from making the same mistake again.


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
I don't see ANY difference. What about when the doctor stimulates the penis so that it becomes erect so he/she knows how much skin to cut off. So baby's very first sexual arousal happens because the doctor wants to know how much skin to lop off.

I have not heard that before. Do you have a link to some info about that? I'd like to add it to my files.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
I don't see ANY difference. What about when the doctor stimulates the penis so that it becomes erect so he/she knows how much skin to cut off. So baby's very first sexual arousal happens because the doctor wants to know how much skin to lop off.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinker* 
I have not heard that before. Do you have a link to some info about that? I'd like to add it to my files.


Yes me too!!! If thats true, it makes a lot of sense, (I don't know why I didn't think about this before







) that is so sick SICK SICK sick sick sick!!!!uke


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

I have just pm'd you some very good info. Please feel free to ask any questions.
yulia


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinker* 
I have not heard that before. Do you have a link to some info about that? I'd like to add it to my files.

I've heard it before, several times. I don't have a link for you, though.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.* 
I haven't read the entire thread but I did see this:

You are more than welcomed to email my husband - his circumcision and sex was absolutely FINE (even had some "extra" skin) until he had a penile growth spurt...then his erections were so tight that on several occations his penis split open (about an inch long section just tore open). The skin would also stretch so tight that even if it didn't tear, half or more of his penis was numb. Sex? God sex was miserable...no matter how much lube was used there was so much friction, chafing, and even some vaginal tearing/bleeding.

My mother in law should have kept her aesthetic preferences out of our bed and off of someone else's body. If you like cut penises, fine. But your son or his wife/husband may not feel the same way in 20/30 years...especially if he stays in California where only 30% of other penises his age are that way.

I agree. Ask my son, if you'd like.


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## paphia (Jun 22, 2007)

Well, since you said it was okay to talk about you, I hope you don't mind bringing this point up.

You find your range of birth choices important to you. You have been stressed out because of insurance problems. You have been unsure of what OB you'll end up with at the time of birth, and you don't want to end up with someone who will push a c-section on you because of your GD diagnosis and previous birth history, right? You want the freedom to choose how you birth. You want the freedom to birth vaginally, right? Or at least attempt it, free of complication-ridden interventions.

Now, I don't know why you personally don't want a repeat c-sec. Some people have no problem with them. Most doctors have no problem with them. Society in general will look at you like you're crazy for caring. But I'm guessing you don't like the surgery, the recovery and the inherent risks that come with giving birth by c-sec.

Now, why is okay for YOU, as an adult, to CHOOSE how you birth, to CHOOSE to avoid surgery, yet you don't know if you can give your SON, who is helpless and voiceless and powerless any choice of his OWN to avoid a *wholly* unnecessary surgery. What is harmed by letting him choose in his own time. You could educate him on all these cultural nuances that are so fascinating to you, and have long discussions over the meaning of the act, and then let him get circ'ed or not when he is an adult.

I guess what is bothering me about your posts is that you are taking everyone into account except your unborn child, and yet it is his body that will be affected. You don't answer why you think the choice should not be his. You write as though his feelings about his body are irrelevant, like you and, by extension, your family and all of society, own his body.

But you don't. The truth of it, when you clear your head of all the noise about "Well regardless of whether it is right or wrong, the decision HAS been placed in the hands of the parents" (which is not true - if you did nothing he can decide later for HIMSELF), is that it is HIS body. Yes, you will have to take care of him when he is little. Doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to him.

Maybe when you get back you can write more on why you feel you have more of a right to his body than he does, and why you feel circumcision has to be done to him in infancy when he can't tell you one way or the other what he would prefer. You seem to value your intellect, yet you are considering preemptively denying him the opportunity to use his own on this matter. I just don't get that and it weighs on me, I feel so bad for your unborn son. I would never want such a horrible thing decided for me.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
'Old Tradition' in your family:
-pain
-loss of flesh
-loss of sensation
-risks of infection, death, buried penis, webbed penis, trapped penis, adhesions, meatal stenosis, tight erections, scarring, etc
-infant strapped down to plastic board
-wound care

'New Tradition' in your family:
-gentle welcome to the world
-no pain or suffering
-no wound care
-no wondering if his cries are for the pain from a wound you inflicted for no medical reason
-a whole body, just the way he was intended to be




























































Some great posts here.









One point I want to cover:
If your mother had wanted you circumcised, it would already have been done by now. You would have grown into adulthood accustomed to your own personal mishmash of scar tissue (how much is left and how well it functions based on the skill and attention and _personal preference_ of the "care provider" she chose)
You would have heard words like clitoris and labia and wondered about them. Eventually you would have seen a diagram of an intact woman's genitalia, and puzzled over the ways your body didn't match the picture- and which parts did.
You would wonder whether the pain you experienced at times were normal, whether you would experience more pleasure if you had not been modified as a child... and you would decide whether to accept it as a done deal or to spend some time angry and frustrated about it.

Some parents do end up having to tell their children, When DS1 was born, we thought we made the right choice- but by the time DS2 was born, we learned more and decided to keep him intact.
I'd rather have to say that than... we were on the fence, but still kept doing it.

If I had to get cosmetic surgery, I'd want the final say in what part got modified and how.








I know a number of people who've gotten tattoos and piercings as a part of their healing process after having been assaulted or abused. They say that having something extreme done to their bodies that they chose for themselves is healing, because of the contrast between chosen suffering and the pain and shame they experienced at the hands of their attackers/abusers.
Men sure do get a lot of tattoos in this country!
I wonder whether there's a correlation? Any studies on the subject?

There are plenty of men who, to put it mildly, regret the loss they suffered as babies. I'm not sure what the rule is about linking to other discussion boards, but there is a man on tribe.net in the anti-circ tribe whose rage is kind of frightening. We're pretty much trying to talk him down from obsessing with revenge fantasies. It breaks my heart.

The bottom line for me is: His body, his choice.

Best wishes


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
Okay, so please don't get mad at me...but I wanted to hear if anyone else was in the same situation. Since we found out we were having a son, we had a terrible time debating whether or not to circ. We did lots of research and for a long time I felt like we wouldn't do it. I was always against it, but I still felt that, being a woman, it was something my husband should have a say in. We talked about it for what seems like forever. We did lots of research. My husband is not a brutal man, he is very gentle and a pacifist. So ultimately I told my husband that I would support whatever decision he made. We ended up circ. our first son. My son did cry during the procedure, but he nursed afterwards and we never had any problems since. (hes 2.5 years old now)

Now we are 30 weeks pregnant with our 2nd son and facing the same decision. Ultimately our 1st decision did come down to whether or not we wanted our son to "look" like his father, but it wasn't that my dh HAD to have it that way. He said that as for his own experience, being circ. was something he never regreted. The only insecurity I can even think of is that, we were worried about him not being circ. and then asking daddy questions about it and feeling different. Okay, before people start pointing out all the proof that this woud not be so...please know that we knew that and know that, but the emotional aspect of it is so pulling its hard to see when everyone else you know is circ, or those that you know who are intact...well, those people that we know who are intact, are not the kind of parents that we are. We are very "natural" in other aspects..such as babywearing, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, gentle disapline..etc.

I am confused because we haven't made any concrete decisions regarding what we plan on doing and probably wont until the baby gets here. I don't want to be seen as a monster parent no matter what I decide. I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1, but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc. Its a lot of pressure for a person to deal with. I wouldn't say that I regret circ. son number one, b/c we haven't had any problems and he is a happy kid, and was a happy baby. I do know people who decided to circ. as an adult and wish they had it done as a kid, and I know people who wish they hadn't circ. at all. So again, I'm torn between my relationships with these people and the decisions we feel pressured to make. Also, I know my husband will support my feelings on it,I just felt that he knew better than I about boys which is why I said I'd support whatever decision he made. He's had his doubts about it, but we can't change the past...and I still do stand by what I said, and I do support him. Now this doesn't mean that we feel "good" about having to make the decision by any means. Its obviously something that is eating away at us since we found out we are expecting another boy.

I'm not pro circ. and I'm not against it since it is something that 2 of the boys in my life have had to deal with, and seem to be okay with (except in the debating aspect in my husbands case...he is very much torn about the issue in general) I just don't want to get yelled at, we are already beating ourselves up enough over this and I just want to know if I'm alone in feeling this way. I wouldn't say its regret b/c after its done its done and we really had no bad experience with it. I'd really like to hear from moms who circ one of their boys and decided not to with the 2nd.

I want to offer some hugs, it is a very difficult and emotional decision, especially when you are dealing with worry about what to do.

I circed both my sons, and I wish I hadn't circ'd at all. If I have another boy, I will not circ.

I think if your answer is not an enthusiastic "yes", then you are better off not doing it. So if you cannot feel enthusiastically like you need to circ your son (and realistically, what evidence is there that for that view?) then you will probably be happier choosing not to do it.

I'm pleased that your first son is coping well with being circed, as are my boys. But I thank God for that, and I'm not certain that no issues will come up later in life. I truly believe that leaving the baby as God and nature made him is a perfect way to go.

Lastly, I think it's true that the decision truly should belong to your son when he's an adult.

More hugs and I hope that you are able to choose to have an intact son and feel great about it. PM me if you ever want need someone to listen or chat with.

Karen


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

paphia, _fantastic_ points.

(I took so long writing mine, I didn't see yours until I was done.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

motherearthdancer, I've read through the entire thread, and what I'm seeing from you is this:

DH and I circumcised our first son, and we are considering circumcising our next son, because we really can't come up with a good reason not to.

But what happens if you take a step back, and look at it from the opposite persoective: You will give birth to a normal, healthy, perfect baby boy. He has no medical concerns at all. He is nursing like a champ, and content unless he is hungry or wet (two needs which are easily met).

He does not NEED an operation. There is nothing wrong with him. Instead of thinking "Why shouldn't I sign him up for an operation?" you should be asking yourself "Why SHOULD I?"

You strike me as someone who does not take medical intervention lightly. Will your son get his tonsils out before he gets his first sore throat? Will he get tubes in his ears before he ever has an ear infection? Of course not - because those operations, while relatively simple ones, are still unnecessary surgery.

How much more unnecessary is it to amputate a part of your son's body that is much less likely to cause him problems than his throat or his ears, and alter the appearance of a body part that very few people will ever actually see?


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I've heard it before, several times. I don't have a link for you, though.

I'll look for a link when I can look without throwing up. I'll have to sift through the links.


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
I'll look for a link when I can look without throwing up. I'll have to sift through the links.

No I can't imagine that would be a pleasant one to search for. But if you do find it, it would be much appreciated. Anything we can get to help show people just how reprehensible circ is, is a good thing.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1...

You did a horrible mistake and, in my opinion, if you respect your son at all, you will have to tell him the truth and apologize to him anyway. but at least you could say to him that you really thought it was in his best interests. And what are you going to say #2 if you circ him? That you decided to amputate a healthy important part of his body just because you didn't want to apologize to #1 for the mistake you've done







: .

Quote:


Originally Posted by *motherearthdancer* 
...but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc...

well, you said it yourself. if this is what your heart tells you than it must be very much true!


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## motherearthdancer (Apr 13, 2007)

Everyone makes such good points. I do appreicate it. I'm really glad everyone took so much time to reply. At this point I'm just too tired to comment. I have lots of things going on and I may step away from the boards for a while just because I'm feeling too overwhelmed by information at this point. I do want to say that I have taken my son into consideration, and just because I chose to state opposing reasoning does not mean that we are planning on circ. If anything we are more likely not to, but even if we don't, I don't feel like its something we will ever bring up with people again. People have been really kind in their responses, but some have not and it really does make me not want to talk about it with anyone anymore. I'm probably just being hormonal again, but even if we don't circ our son (which we probably wont) I don't think I want to have people judging me or laying my friendship on the line based upon whether or not they agree with the issue or not. I understand why people wouldn't want to be friends with someone who decided to circ. when its such a hot button issue/personal issue, but in a way, I couldn't not be friends with those people I know who have circ. their sons based only on that single decision. Again, I understand why people would decide that, but that kind of sickens me in much the same way the circ. issue sickens anti-circ people in general. So thank you again for the information and allowing me to discuss it here. It was a great discussion and I learned a lot.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

I think you misunderstand many who say they would no longer be friends. For me personally, I feel that the kind of person who would take all the information and still perform genital cutting on their son is not a person I can be near. They hurt their child, with knowledge and willing. They would not be the person I thought they were (speaking here of people who are my friends right now-- if they cut their child despite having it all laid out to them, they would be destroying everything I thought I knew about them).

That may sicken you, but such a grostesque change in one of my friends, from a compassionate person who would never knowingly and willingly cause pain to child for nontheraputic/medical purposes to one who WOULD do that is extremely alarming to me. It would sicken me to know I had hung out with such a person for so long, shared so much with them...and then they change like that.


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

People judge people everyday in many ways. Everyone has their own yard stick, so-to-speak, for how to judge anothers character.

Religion
Political affilation
Parenting style (mgm)
Human Rights (mgm)

You may not agree with those who use mgm to help determine good or bad character, but then they may not agree with you on the ways YOU define good or bad character.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
Your son's body is his own. It belongs to him. He is not your property. You should not mark him as slaveowners brand their slaves in the name of perpetuating some misguided notion of tradition.

To do so, knowing what you know now about circumcision, would be beyond wrong. It would be an act of supreme hubris, demonstrating your power and control over your son's body at the weakest and most vulnerable time of his life, and it would be an act of deliberate ignorance, knowingly and willfully turning a blind eye to the harm that circumcision WILL cause your son whether or not he suffers any complications. It would be an act of deliberate harm to your son, and your excuse of "tradition" would be a thin fig leaf indeed.











Jen


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
People judge people everyday in many ways. Everyone has their own yard stick, so-to-speak, for how to judge anothers character.

Religion
Political affilation
Parenting style (mgm)
Human Rights (mgm)

You may not agree with those who use mgm to help determine good or bad character, but then they may not agree with you on the ways YOU define good or bad character.









:


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