# Teen Marijuana Issues



## rhodeslindsey (Jun 7, 2014)

I'm new to the forum, but I'm really looking for advice on a teen (16) that has been caught TWICE now smoking Marijuana.

My son is generally a good kid. Last summer (he was 15) he was caught his first time smoking marijuana. I know kids are going to experiment, and I've always tried to be honest with my kids, and let them feel like they can talk to me. But, needless to say, this incident wasn't cool to his parents. He was grounded for most of the summer. 

He plays football and has a huge opportunity, being as he's so good at it. He's already had college recruiters contact him. He's very good at the sport. He has such a bright and promising future!

I noticed a change in his behavior recently. He was sleeping alot, and as soon as he got up he would go to his friends house. So I knew something was going on. Low and behold, we dropped in at his "friends" house a few days ago.. and the smell would knock you down! His dad really had a hard time with it.. because we asked him several times if he was doing it. A few days before we caught him, him and his dad had a heart to heart talk, and he lied to him, basically had his dad believing he wasn't doing anything. 

I knew better, but I just had to catch him. And sure enough. I did.

I'm really torn on what to do. And would LOVE some advice. He's grounded from everything, and we've had alot of heart to heart talks about the effects of marijuana and what it can cause, and what it can lead to. But, I really don't think we're getting through to him. 

He's got such a bright future, I'm not really sure how I can get him to understand that doing this is going to mess his future up! 

Any ideas??


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## anyalily (Oct 23, 2008)

I would remind him that there are natural consequences of use... He may not have as much energy for football and therefore may not stand out. School will be more of a shlep and he may have to study twice as hard. College will be harder... He could get in trouble. He could really screw up if he got behind the wheel after smoking... But mama, beyond that, I am not sure what would really make a difference. Control and punishment is not terribly effective with this sort of thing.

I would say that it is possible he is medicating himself. I know that when I was that age, I smoked because it eased my anxiety. I would have been well served to learn about anxiety and techniques for relieving it. Access to a good counselor I could trust, one I could talk about pot with without getting in trouble. I probably would have still smoked once in a while, but not not regularly, I wouldn't have needed it in the same way. I ended up passing up trips and opportunities in order to be around a smoke friendly environment... And in in the long run, I eventually had to deal with my anxiety anyway...


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

Well, he could still have a bright future. I know my DH smoked pot socially when I met him at 21. He was disengaged... hard working but without a purpose and in the habit of hanging out with the neighborhood kids (well past when they were "kids.") I didn't ask him to stop but I was open that I can't stand being around the stuff and he hasn't touched it since. Most kids that experiment or use socially outgrow it. The real problem is that if he's using it as an escape, as a method of dealing with stress or physical pain from a high impact sport, then he's not learning sober coping skills and thus, the drug use could continue or escalate.

Does he actually enjoy football? Is it something he gets excited about going to? Does he, himself, see a future in it? Is he engaged at school? What is his income source that he can afford it? What kind of supervision does he have after school and on weekends? Does he do any volunteer work? 

FWIW, most kids outgrow it. If he continues in college sports, it might get worse as it's a big problem in college athletics. Yes, it's heart breaking. I would consider some counselling to perhaps see if there is something other than "but my friends do it and I'm bored" going on. I'd also be encouraging or perhaps requiring some non football activities. Something that gives him more purpose and for which he will need a clear mind to really engage in. Get him around some kids for which pot is not acceptable. There are plenty around.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

This is one of the disadvantages with most Americans now thinking pot is okay... its just too easy for teens to get it and share it. We know a couple of kids now who were expelled from high school because they came to school high. Such a waste of a bright young life.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

My parents tried to be very strict with me about smaller things like smoking a bit of pot and it totally backfired. As a result i can't imagine that i would ever ground either of my kids or do too much of anything for smoking a bit of weed. 

As for the sleeping, as it turns out teens need a ton of sleep. Basically they're like toddlers in that regard. So, I wouldn't worry too much about the sleep. Maybe if he sleeps more he'll have less time to smoke weed and less need to do so.

Good luck, that's a toughie


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## snarfmcgarf (May 9, 2014)

This is such a tough one, because it can be really damaging at his age-getting caught could screw up his chance at a scholarship. At the same time, every adult smoker I know is a fully functioning, successful individual. I imagine your son sees this as well, and so thinks "it's not that bad", and the truth is, it's not. 
I'm not sure I'd punish, either. Luckily my dd is 7 so I've got a few years before having to deal with this myself.


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## homemommy (Apr 22, 2007)

We went through this with my 9th and 11th grade boys this year. As a parent I felt I had to lay down the law on this issue. We have several addicts in our family that all started out recreationally and now have destroyed lives. It is just too risky. I randomly screen my boys for drugs now. If they are not clean their cell phones, car keys, and freedoms all disappear. I explained the repercussions of what happens if they are caught since it is illegal in our state, as well as the negative impact it has on developing brains under 25. Communication is super important! We have open dialogue frequently. I express to them how I feel about the medical use of marijuana to replace all the pills everyone is hooked on these days. And how I do agree that recreational use of pot should only be used by responsible established adults in the same way they might have a glass or two of wine. 

Good luck with this! I know it is a tough issue and difficult to know how to handle it in the right way. So far my boys are responding well and have had no dirty tests since Feb.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

homemommy said:


> We went through this with my 9th and 11th grade boys this year. As a parent I felt I had to lay down the law on this issue. We have several addicts in our family that all started out recreationally and now have destroyed lives. It is just too risky. I randomly screen my boys for drugs now. If they are not clean their cell phones, car keys, and freedoms all disappear. I explained the repercussions of what happens if they are caught since it is illegal in our state, as well as the negative impact it has on developing brains under 25. Communication is super important! We have open dialogue frequently. I express to them how I feel about the medical use of marijuana to replace all the pills everyone is hooked on these days. And how I do agree that recreational use of pot should only be used by responsible established adults in the same way they might have a glass or two of wine.
> 
> Good luck with this! I know it is a tough issue and difficult to know how to handle it in the right way. So far my boys are responding well and have had no dirty tests since Feb.


I could never live with that level of surveillance and lack of trust.


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## homemommy (Apr 22, 2007)

Well they really brought it on themselves by disobeying the rules we have set in our family. Don't use drugs and do stupid things that could destroy your future and I won't have to micromanage you... It is their choice how much freedom they are given. I won't stand around and turn a blind eye as my children become potheads I'll tell you that right now. 


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## OrmEmbar (Oct 25, 2012)

My teen actually liked the idea of spontaneous drug tests because she would have the perfect reason to say no. We haven't moved to actually doing any tests yet but the conversation has been unfolding about drugs, their effects, why people might like being high or mellow or hyper aware of physical feelings, the importance of caring for oneself, which drugs can kill or cause irreversible brain damage with the first dose, the importance of being aware of food and drinks that are consumed at parties etc. 
Random drug tests came up as a tool that could be used so that she feels strongly empowered to say no if she is offered


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Viola P said:


> I could never live with that level of surveillance and lack of trust.


Oh well, I don't have clothe, feed and house a drug user or loan them the family car... that is MY choice as a parent. If my kid hates my rules, he can move out when he's 18.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

Is it the marijuana itself or that you are concerned about your child getting thrown in jail for something so silly as smoking a little weed? Like, would you not care if you lived in Colorado, or Amsterdam? I understand the need to protect ones child from immoral state interference...


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Viola P said:


> Is it the marijuana itself or that you are concerned about your child getting thrown in jail for something so silly as smoking a little weed?..


I live in a city that is heavily drawn into the drug war in Mexico. If either of my kids were foolish enough to do anything that drew them closer to that world, then I would do everything in my power to put a stop to it. (I have a friend whose son got involved, became a dealer, and was eventually murder, because that how it works in this part of the country).

But I don't live in the middle of the country where middle class people can pretend that this is a victimless crime. I live were burned out cars are found in the dessert, and the bodies can't be identified. I know in other places its different, but this is where it comes from. There is so much money to be made of your attitude, that lots of people are willing to kill over this.

I think that the lives of many innocent (and not so innocent) Mexicans could be saved if Americans would consider where their drugs came from. This is really not an industry that ANYONE with a conscious should be supporting. 
(may be the OPer could have her son research the drug war and how it effects peoples lives)

Besides, my kids have very blessed lives and bright futures, they can learn to have fun and to cope with difficulties in more creative ways that getting stoned.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

"But I don't live in the middle of the country where middle class people can pretend that this is a victimless crime. I live were burned out cars are found in the dessert, and the bodies can't be identified. I know in other places its different, but this is where it comes from. There is so much money to be made of your attitude, that lots of people are willing to kill over this."


Legalizing would fix all those ^ problems and then some as the product would be better if regulated (or at least there'd be some quality assurance!) 

I think the solution for anyone concerned about their family getting drawn into a marijuana drug war is to start lobbying for legalization.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Linda on the move said:


> I live in a city that is heavily drawn into the drug war in Mexico. If either of my kids were foolish enough to do anything that drew them closer to that world, then I would do everything in my power to put a stop to it. (I have a friend whose son got involved, became a dealer, and was eventually murder, because that how it works in this part of the country).
> 
> But I don't live in the middle of the country where middle class people can pretend that this is a victimless crime. I live were burned out cars are found in the dessert, and the bodies can't be identified. I know in other places its different, but this is where it comes from. There is so much money to be made of your attitude, that lots of people are willing to kill over this.
> 
> ...


I'm all for legalization, but it's not right now. Along with all the things listed above, there have been fire fighters shot at and threatened by people who want them to protect their plants instead of evacuating due to the wild fires.

Right now, it is a crime. For that reason alone I would not make light of my kids smoking. Not to mention the damage it can do to undeveloped minds that have already been scientifically proven to have serious issues with being able to see consequences.

Then, add to it the fact that my dh is a federal law enforcement officer that has to deal with people, teens especially, making really bad, sometimes tragic decisions because they're high, I really would do everything possible to keep my kids from smoking.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

The OP asked for opinions so I'm going to give mine even though I know it'll probably offend some.

First, random drug testing your own children is an authoritarian approach to parenting, which I understand had been proven to create adult personalities that are defiant towards authority and untrusting. 

Id also be concerned that if my kids don't let loose a little when they're young they'll do it when they're old and have a lot more to loose.

Also, as a woman I would never want to be so controlling over my male children especially because I can pretty much guarantee that those boys will grow up to have serious issues with women and make terrible husbands. If the science shows that kids who are raised by authoritarian parents balk at legit authority later on it stands to reason that if the enforcer (or prime authority figure) is the mother boys will grow up to balk at what they perceive to be female authority. I can imagine boys raised like that becoming men who say to their wives "you can't tell me what to do", and ultimately end up divorced.

As for the legal consequences, I would always want to teach my children how to be "cop smart" by teaching them how to say no to a search request, how to identify a search request, and what to do if detained or arrested.

Finally, I plan on turning a blind eye to small things so that my children can have their normal teenage rebellion without feeling the need to turn to bigger badder rebellions like smoking crack or b &e's

Just my 2c


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Viola P said:


> First, random drug testing your own children is an authoritarian approach to parenting, which I understand had been proven to create adult personalities that are defiant towards authority and untrusting.


Our parenting style isn't determined by our approach to one, single issue in the teen years. Our kids personalities are pretty much formed by this point by the myriad of decisions we made up to now. They do have the capability to screw up their futures, though.

My DH works in an industry where random drug testing is required. On one hand, I don't think drug testing is a big deal. At the same time, it would make me sad if my kids started screwing up their lives in ways that I felt it was what was best for them. I don't like to pry into their lives, and I prefer for them to have privacy. But at this point, privacy is a privileged based on trust. I totally get why parents do things differently after their kids break that trust.



> Id also be concerned that if my kids don't let loose a little when they're young they'll do it when they're old and have a lot more to loose.


there are ways to cut loose without breaking the law or killing brain cells.



> As for the legal consequences, I would always want to teach my children how to be "cop smart" by teaching them how to say no to a search request, how to identify a search request, and what to do if detained or arrested.


honestly, that you think that is the biggest issue is a privilege based on where you live. I noticed you are in Canada. I know how this stuff works in the US, but not Canada. Where does your pot come from? Who grew it? If it came from Mexico, then it is covered with blood.

If there were ever an item to boycott because the producers are immoral, its drugs from Mexico and the rest of Latin America.



> Finally, I plan on turning a blind eye to small things so that my children can have their normal teenage rebellion without feeling the need to turn to bigger badder rebellions like smoking crack or b &e's


this is the real difference between our points of view. I think that this is a big deal that could seriously impact my children's lives.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

> As for the legal consequences, I would always want to teach my children how to be "cop smart" by teaching them how to say no to a search request, how to identify a search request, and what to do if detained or arrested.


Unfortunately, when you're high, being "cop smart" becomes even more difficult. People don't make good decisions when they're drunk or high. People's brains don't completely mature until they are 25. Add those 2 things together and smarts rapidly decrease.


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

Those of you taking the authoritarian approach and drug-testing your kids, I'm just curious - when they go off to college, and you're not standing there with a cup and punishments in hand, what do you think they're going to do? Why shouldn't they share a doobie with their dorm buddies?


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## homemommy (Apr 22, 2007)

My boys will go to college with the understanding that if they want their father and I to pay for college they will not participate in illegal activities. If they do and we find out about it we will no longer pay and they can figure it out on their own. 


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## snarfmcgarf (May 9, 2014)

I live in a medical marijuana state- our weed (our used loosely, I don't smoke) comes from indoor growers and the occasional outdoor grower who's aligned with a local cannabis club. That eliminates the cartel.


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

homemommy said:


> My boys will go to college with the understanding that if they want their father and I to pay for college they will not participate in illegal activities. If they do and we find out about it we will no longer pay and they can figure it out on their own.


Okay, so the real lesson here is "don't get caught." Gotcha. Good luck!


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

snarfmcgarf said:


> I live in a medical marijuana state- our weed (our used loosely, I don't smoke) comes from indoor growers and the occasional outdoor grower who's aligned with a local cannabis club. That eliminates the cartel.


Yeah, I don't smoke either but I live in California and there are growers aplenty right here in the state. Everybody I know who likes weed gets it from a legal dispensary and the dispensaries are pretty good about their sources.

If you're really bothered by the social effects of illegal drugs, then ending Prohibition is your best bet. Same as alcohol in the 1920's - Prohibition caused way more problems and killed far more people than the substance ever did. And really the only significant difference between alcohol and marijuana is that alcohol is more dangerous&#8230; but I sure enjoy a glass of wine in moderation.

I'm all about moderation and a rational evaluation of risk vs. benefit.


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## homemommy (Apr 22, 2007)

No, discalceata, that is not the real lesson we are trying to instill. It is a deterrent in hopes they will make wise decisions. Like I stated in my original post, we have lots of open conversations about alcohol, pot, pills, and drugs in general. I grew up with my parents growing pot in our back yard. Their entire lives revolved around growing, smoking, drinking, partying, etc...which ultimately ended up ruining our family. I have 2 drug addicted siblings and my mother is an alcoholic and I am estranged from my father. My husband and I financially support my mother and brother in various ways. All that to say, I am not afraid of or against pot and strongly believe in it's medical benefits. The lesson I want my boys to learn is that it is illegal for them to smoke at this point in their life, and their brains are not finished developing yet. I do not want their neurons creating addiction pathways when the addiction gene runs so strongly in my family. As far as my husband and I are concerned, the longer we can keep them away from drugs and alcohol the better they will be for it.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

discalceata said:


> Yeah, I don't smoke either but I live in California and there are growers aplenty right here in the state. Everybody I know who likes weed gets it from a legal dispensary and the dispensaries are pretty good about their sources.
> 
> If you're really bothered by the social effects of illegal drugs, then ending Prohibition is your best bet. Same as alcohol in the 1920's - Prohibition caused way more problems and killed far more people than the substance ever did. And really the only significant difference between alcohol and marijuana is that alcohol is more dangerous&#8230; but I sure enjoy a glass of wine in moderation.
> 
> I'm all about moderation and a rational evaluation of risk vs. benefit.


I would definitely like to see it legalized, for those exact reasons. That being said, I still wouldn't want my teen smoking it.


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

homemommy said:


> The lesson I want my boys to learn is that it is illegal for them to smoke at this point in their life, and their brains are not finished developing yet. I do not want their neurons creating addiction pathways when the addiction gene runs so strongly in my family. As far as my husband and I are concerned, the longer we can keep them away from drugs and alcohol the better they will be for it.


Fair enough, I get that. Sorry if I came on strong. I had a controlling, punishment-based upbringing and it made me a bit sensitive to authoritarianism in all forms, and it left me unprepared for the real world when I moved out. I'd lived through my teens rebelling when I wouldn't get caught and making my decisions based on the likelihood of punishments, so once I moved out (as soon as I turned 18), I wasn't really equipped to make rational decisions without the threat of punishment involved.

We all have to do what we feel is best for our own families. I apologize if I was rude.



QueenOfTheMeadow said:


> I would definitely like to see it legalized, for those exact reasons. That being said, I still wouldn't want my teen smoking it.


I wouldn't want my teen smoking it either, and I'd let them know why. I just don't think it's an offense worth turning my home into a police state. Everybody's going to do what they're going to do; I just can't personally see myself subjecting my kid to drug screenings. I don't think employers have any business doing that either. I'm a huge believer in privacy.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

Home mommy and the others who do drug testing - can you please clarify whether it's likely that you'd go to jail for simple possession where you are? If so that's pretty crazy.

I'm with discalceata as I too was raised in a very authoritarian household where I was grounded frequently for disobeying the rules and had privileges revoked including those related to privacy and I also left home at a very young age. Actually I was kicked out for disobeying a rule. Yeah... would never ever ever raise my kids like that. I won't say what happened when I was out on my own at 15 with nowhere to go but I will say that it was terrible. Those approaches to parenting make me very worried for the children, particularly the teens who will test the rules! A true authoritarian will escalate the punishment to the point of insanity. 

Bless you and your children!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

discalceata said:


> I don't think employers have any business doing that either. I'm a huge believer in privacy.


The federal government requires that the entire industry my DH works in tests. No body wants to fly around in planes that were designed by a bunch of stoner engineers. There are other careers like this. It's considered a public safety issue. Most people would rather be in a safe plane than be over concerned with the privacy rights of the people who designed, built, and maintain it.

I'm too busy to work on ensuring that pot heads have a morally defensivable supply (I work with special needs kids in a title one school, so my life is already focused on social justice issues). I feel that my teens should be too busy to break laws, kill brain cells, and flirt with habit forming drugs. Oddly, even though you think I sound authoritarian, my kids have more freedom and control over their own lives than any other kids we know in real life. But there is a line, and it's a firm line. You keep assuming that a parent's approach to ONE issue reflects how they handle everything, and that isn't the case.

I totally agree that our current drug policy and laws don't work. I don't know how any one could even argue with that. But the notion that ALL the problems would be solved by legalizing drugs is naive. There are kids whose lives are all screwed up because of their parents relationship with alcohol. Alcohol being legal doesn't fix the fact that when people over use mind altering substances, they screw up the rest of their lives.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I don't do drug testing on my kids, and I'd like to think I wouldn't. But if I was scared enough, I'm not sure what I'd do. I think, even to consider considering it, they'd have to have seriously betrayed my trust and I'd have to believe what they were doing was going to have a serious negative affect on their future. 

So far, I'm not to concerned. My oldest son got off the high school bus at a stop a ways away from where he usually gets off because he saw someone with marijuana and he just wanted out of there. We'll see how the younger two handle it when they are confronted with the reality of seeing it. We do discuss the issue of drugs quite a lot, because they often hear the stories of the things that their dad deals with at work surrounding drugs, especially being high and driving.


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

Linda on the move said:


> The federal government requires that the entire industry my DH works in tests. No body wants to fly around in planes that were designed by a bunch of stoner engineers. There are other careers like this. It's considered a public safety issue. Most people would rather be in a safe plane than be over concerned with the privacy rights of the people who designed, built, and maintain it.


I think it's a pretty big leap to assume that everyone who smokes pot is a raging incompetent stoner. It's funny you mention designing planes; I know a man who does that for a living, has done it for many years and is good at it, and who regularly smokes pot at night and on weekends. Again, it's like alcohol; most people who have a glass of wine in the evening or even get drunk on a weekend are not showing up to work wasted.

I feel like whatever people do on their own time is not their employers' business. If they're showing up to work stoned, absolutely, that's a problem. But work is work and home is home.



Linda on the move said:


> I feel that my teens should be too busy to break laws, kill brain cells, and flirt with habit forming drugs. Oddly, even though you think I sound authoritarian, my kids have more freedom and control over their own lives than any other kids we know in real life. But there is a line, and it's a firm line. You keep assuming that a parent's approach to ONE issue reflects how they handle everything, and that isn't the case.


I'm not assuming anything and I totally agree that kids should be too busy with healthier pursuits. I'm glad your family is happy and healthy. Really! Like I said earlier, we all have to make our own decisions about what we feel is best for ourselves and our families. Plenty of room for disagreement and different approaches.



Linda on the move said:


> I totally agree that our current drug policy and laws don't work. I don't know how any one could even argue with that. But the notion that ALL the problems would be solved by legalizing drugs is naive. There are kids whose lives are all screwed up because of their parents relationship with alcohol. Alcohol being legal doesn't fix the fact that when people over use mind altering substances, they screw up the rest of their lives.


Absolutely. But Prohibition makes it a lot worse, by creating unregulated, unpredictable dosages, by bringing police violence into the equation, and by making it that much harder for addicts to get the help they need. If we stopped treating it as a criminal issue and started treating it as a physiological issue (which it is), I believe society would be much better off.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Linda on the move said:


> The federal government requires that the entire industry my DH works in tests. No body wants to fly around in planes that were designed by a bunch of stoner engineers. There are other careers like this. It's considered a public safety issue.


I live in BC, Canada, for what it's worth, so I am coming at this issue from a different cultural mindset, but I wonder how you would feel about the above scenario if alcohol was substituted for marijuana. Would it be a public safety issue to have planes designed by a bunch of people who enjoy beer or wine on their own time? Would it be reasonable for the government to test entire industries to ensure complete alcohol abstinence?

Miranda


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## whatsnextmom (Apr 2, 2010)

moominmamma said:


> I live in BC, Canada, for what it's worth, so I am coming at this issue from a different cultural mindset, but I wonder how you would feel about the above scenario if alcohol was substituted for marijuana. Would it be a public safety issue to have planes designed by a bunch of people who enjoy beer or wine on their own time? Would it be reasonable for the government to test entire industries to ensure complete alcohol abstinence?
> 
> Miranda


This sort of takes things off topic but what Miranda says rings true. Alcohol is a much more dangerous and damaging drug than marijuana but they have a really strong lobby and community support. For that matter, how many prescription drugs would we be comfortable with people in such a position taking? I've seen what anti-depressants can do to people... where do we draw the line?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

discalceata said:


> If we stopped treating it as a criminal issue and started treating it as a physiological issue (which it is), I believe society would be much better off.


Do you mean psychological or physiological?

Either way, why would you be OK with your teen using drugs? 
Where would you draw the line between "cutting in loose" and having a psychological or physiological problem?

(FWIW, I suspect that most teens and young adults who smoke a little weed outgrow it without long term effects, however, I still draw the line as zero tolerance in my home)

We have lots of drug treatment programs. One residential program here allows addicts to bring their children with them. I guess I'm not seeing that our current (and very failed) policies keep people from getting help. Lots of help is available for those who want it, much of it is free here.



moominmamma said:


> I live in BC, Canada, for what it's worth, so I am coming at this issue from a different cultural mindset, but I wonder how you would feel about the above scenario if alcohol was substituted for marijuana. Would it be a public safety issue to have planes designed by a bunch of people who enjoy beer or wine on their own time? Would it be reasonable for the government to test entire industries to ensure complete alcohol abstinence?
> 
> Miranda


I assuming you mean, "if the world were completely different and drugs were not associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder...."

As it is, being involved in drugs so close to the boarder makes some a security risk because the cartel kidnaps family members. (I live about an hour away from the city in the US with the highest kidnapping rate).

In the fictional, perfect world, it's a good question. One that I would have to research an answer to.

In the real world, I'm fine with the fact that for some jobs, you need to follow the law. For jobs with security clearances, people have to have their finances in order. I'm really OK with the standards for behavior being different for different career choices. People can make choices about what they want to do, and are free to go into other fields.



whatsnextmom said:


> For that matter, how many prescription drugs would we be comfortable with people in such a position taking? I've seen what anti-depressants can do to people... where do we draw the line?


My DH's company just fired a bunch of "low performers." Heaven only knows what was going on with them. Excessive alcohol? Prescription drugs? Apathy? Pot? Laziness that set in AFTER they did all the work to get the qualifications to get those jobs?


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

Linda on the move said:


> Do you mean psychological or physiological?
> 
> Either way, why would you be OK with your teen using drugs?
> Where would you draw the line between "cutting in loose" and having a psychological or physiological problem?


I meant physiological, which addiction is. Marijuana "addiction" is psychological but I was talking about harder drugs in that comment.

I would absolutely not be okay with my teen using drugs. (The "cutting loose" comment came from another poster, not me.) I just personally wouldn't turn my home into a police state to prevent it, nor do I think it's a crime worthy of draconian punishment. I would rather teach my kid *why* they're a bad idea, and be there for them if/when they do make a bad judgement call. I also see a tremendous difference between marijuana, which is relatively harmless, and harder drugs like heroin.

It's just not a black/white issue for me.



Linda on the move said:


> (FWIW, I suspect that most teens and young adults who smoke a little weed outgrow it without long term effects, however, I still draw the line as zero tolerance in my home)


That is absolutely your right to do.



Linda on the move said:


> We have lots of drug treatment programs. One residential program here allows addicts to bring their children with them. I guess I'm not seeing that our current (and very failed) policies keep people from getting help. Lots of help is available for those who want it, much of it is free here.


For every addict that gets successful treatment, there are thousands who are left for dead, killed by police, incarcerated, or branded for life with felony convictions that make it nearly impossible for them to move on with life. Criminalization helps nothing and our jails are filled with drug offenders serving mandatory minimums while rapists walk free for lack of space.



Linda on the move said:


> I assuming you mean, "if the world were completely different and drugs were not associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder&#8230;."


Well no, I'm saying that drugs are associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder BECAUSE of Prohibition. Ending Prohibition would end most, if not all, of the associated criminal trade.



Linda on the move said:


> In the real world, I'm fine with the fact that for some jobs, you need to follow the law.


Of course. But my employer doesn't have a right to search my house at random intervals to see if I'm hiding stolen goods, and he doesn't have a right to search my body fluids for evidence of what I do in my own time. I think it's sad that we as a society have come to accept the idea of an employee being the property of the employer, with no rights to privacy or an existence outside of work. It's dehumanizing.



Linda on the move said:


> My DH's company just fired a bunch of "low performers." Heaven only knows what was going on with them. Excessive alcohol? Prescription drugs? Apathy? Pot? Laziness that set in AFTER they did all the work to get the qualifications to get those jobs?


Since I don't know them, I'm not sure. It sounds like they were fired for poor job performance though, and not for having a glass of wine or a joint at home on a Saturday evening.

Look, I get that we're not going to agree on this. And that's fine. I just think it's important to maintain perspective.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Linda on the move said:


> I assuming you mean, "if the world were completely different and drugs were not associated with kidnapping, torture, and murder...."


Well, I did mention that I live in BC Canada, and I kind of live in that world. There's a lot of marijuana grown where I live, such that many people believe it's the biggest part of our area's economy. Which isn't saying much, but still... And anyway, we don't have violent crime. So yes, that was the context of my question.

I guess I just don't believe it is an employer's place to police something that doesn't directly affect them. At least that affects them no more than many other lifestyle choices their employees might make in their off hours.

Miranda


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

discalceata said:


> I would absolutely not be okay with my teen using drugs. (The "cutting loose" comment came from another poster, not me.) I just personally wouldn't turn my home into a police state to prevent it, nor do I think it's a crime worthy of draconian punishment. I would rather teach my kid *why* they're a bad idea, and be there for them if/when they do make a bad judgement call. I also see a tremendous difference between marijuana, which is relatively harmless, and harder drugs like heroin.


But if you have all those conversation and work to build a positive relationship based on respect and understanding the issues, and your teen decides to do drugs anyway, lie to you, etc, then what? That's the real question. Teens have free will.

Where and how would you draw that line? I feel fortunate that I've not had to deal with this, but I have friends who have and I don't feel any judgment toward the different ways they have dealt with this issue. How far would you let your own child go down that slide before putting a definitive stop to it, and how would you do that?



moominmamma said:


> I guess I just don't believe it is an employer's place to police something that doesn't directly affect them.


It's not the employer, its the FAA. Its part of federal law. Many people believe that illegal drugs, including pot, stay in the system and effect judgment and cognitive abilities past the point where intoxication ended. They believe that it DOES effect work, and therefore safety. The fact that I don't see what the big deal is about certain people being tested and you do may have a lot to do with me being American and you being Canadian. (I know what all Americans agree with me). I was doing some research, and I was surprised that even Canadian pilots aren't tested for drugs and alcohol when flying. We have random test here.

I'm not interested in discussing the pros and cons of legalization. Its irrelevant to a parenting discussion. This involves federal, state and Mexican laws and isn't going to change between now and when my kids are adults, so it is completely irrelevant. This is just the world that I'm raising my teens in, it is what it is.

I've said several times that the current policies don't work, but I don't buy that all the problems would magically go away with legalization. The cartels aren't going to just switch to tamale stands. The exist to provide what cannot be legally had, and they will find more ways to do that. Addicts will still be a mess (just as alcohols are still mess even though it is legal).


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

Linda on the move said:


> But if you have all those conversation and work to build a positive relationship based on respect and understanding the issues, and your teen decides to do drugs anyway, lie to you, etc, then what? That's the real question. Teens have free will.
> 
> Where and how would you draw that line? I feel fortunate that I've not had to deal with this, but I have friends who have and I don't feel any judgment toward the different ways they have dealt with this issue. How far would you let your own child go down that slide before putting a definitive stop to it, and how would you do that?


That's the big question, isn't it? No one knows for sure what they'd do until they're in that situation, but I can't ever picture myself doing random drug screenings or punishment-based authoritarianism. It's just not who I am. I do have to admit that pretty much everyone I know smoked weed in high school, self included, and turned out all right. I just don't think it's a serious problem until it becomes one.



Linda on the move said:


> It's not the employer, its the FAA. Its part of federal law. Many people believe that illegal drugs, including pot, stay in the system and effect judgment and cognitive abilities past the point where intoxication ended.


There is zero evidence to support that. It's just hysteria. The US government is really, really good at hysteria.



Linda on the move said:


> The fact that I don't see what the big deal is about certain people being tested and you do may have a lot to do with me being American and you being Canadian. (I know what all Americans agree with me).


I'm an American - a Southern conservative, no less - and I absolutely do not agree with you on that point. The USA was founded on personal liberty, the right to privacy, and freedom to live one's own life as one sees fit.



Linda on the move said:


> I've said several times that the current policies don't work, but I don't buy that all the problems would magically go away with legalization. The cartels aren't going to just switch to tamale stands. The exist to provide what cannot be legally had, and they will find more ways to do that.


So why bother to end alcohol Prohibition? The bootleggers and moonshiners aren't just going to switch to lemonade stands. Alcohol causes serious problems for some people, and the Al Capones of the world aren't just going to give up, so we might as well just keep up alcohol Prohibition too. Let's spend billions of dollars a year on failing to keep booze out of the country, and closing bars and shooting people who drink and filling up prisons with alcoholics as well as those who just got busted with a glass of wine at dinner. That's just the way the world is. Right?


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Linda on the move said:


> I was doing some research, and I was surprised that even Canadian pilots aren't tested for drugs and alcohol when flying. We have random test here.


I guess I just don't understand the logic of this invasion of privacy. Sure, public safety could be affected by substance use, but aviation is by no means the only situation in which this could happen. If that is the argument for invading privacy with drug testing, then surely by the same logic anyone operating a motor vehicle should be tested. Which would be pretty much every adult, every day. Honestly, with a co-pilot and all the computerized redundancy in aircraft and the stringent licensing and medical checks and the filtering effect of the education and training required for aviation, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more public risk in ordinary motor vehicle operations than there is in aviation.

I realize this is taking the thread off-topic a bit, but from my perspective this American habit of random drug testing has normalized something that is really quite invasive and authoritarian. It strikes me as frankly Big Brother-ish and it amazes me that anti-drug hysteria has caused the populace to view it as acceptable to the extent that parents think of random drug testing of their children as a reasonable disciplinary option.

I admit I haven't had problems with my kids and drugs, but I have friends whose teens smoke up against their parents' wishes. And their reaction generally is the same as when teens consistently make other choices their parents disagree with: expressing their disapproval, not directly supporting the choice, loving their kids anyway, and suggesting and offering sensible harm-reduction strategies. Like, if you think your 16-year-old daughter shouldn't be sexually active but you know she has been or wants to be, you make sure she's got access to reliable contraception: you don't insist on vaginal swabs for microscopic exam and take away the car keys if you find sperm. I mean, really, to me the drug testing seems just as ludicrous a way of trying to force parental standards of behaviour upon a teen who wants to make different choices. Like it or not parents can't really discipline teens through control, not without seriously jeopardizing their relationship, and an antagonistic relationship drastically reduces the parents' ability to _influence_ their teens. And really, overall, influence is so much more powerful and lasting a parenting strategy.

Miranda


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## discalceata (May 27, 2014)

moominmamma said:


> I realize this is taking the thread off-topic a bit, but from my perspective this American habit of random drug testing has normalized something that is really quite invasive and authoritarian. It strikes me as frankly Big Brother-ish and it amazes me that anti-drug hysteria has caused the populace to view it as acceptable to the extent that parents think of random drug testing of their children as a reasonable disciplinary option.


:yeah :clap


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

moominmamma said:


> I guess I just don't understand the logic of this invasion of privacy. Sure, public safety could be affected by substance use, but aviation is by no means the only situation in which this could happen. If that is the argument for invading privacy with drug testing, then surely by the same logic anyone operating a motor vehicle should be tested.


In the US, drug and alcohol testing extends to:

" safety-sensitive transportation employees in aviation, trucking, railroads, mass transit, pipelines, and other transportation industries." http://www.dot.gov/odapc

As far as drivers of cars, in my state, if you are stopped for drunk driving and refuse to test, then your license in suspended. (you have to sign that you agree to that before you can get a license in my state).

*I don't know any one who drug test their children who hasn't already caught their children using drugs.*

I find this an odd argument for me to be on. I'm very big on my kids' privacy. I don't check their cell phones or their internet histories. I believe that they have a right to tremendous privacy, and I would only break that in ANY way if I knew or had reason to suspect that they were doing something dangerous, were having mental health problems like suicidal depression, etc. But for me, doing illegal, mind altering substances would fall into that category.

I honestly think that pee is a lot less invasive that reading a kids diary or reading through their conversations with a friend. I know a lot of parents who constantly cyber-snoop on their teens "just in case" when the teens haven't put a toe out of line. I don't, and I don't approve of it. However, if I had reason to believe my child was doing drugs, then I would.

We don't have drug issues in our family. One of my kids' friends grew up watching his parents get stoned, and he hates pot so much it keeps anyone in their social circle from ever mentioning trying it. For them, pot is something really bad parents do.

None the less, I have a friend whose son was murdered over drugs, and I get it when parents take this issues extremely seriously. Yes, lots of kids smoke pot and nothing happens. Some fall deeper and deeper into a world that swallows them whole.

I also think that "i would just talk about it" thing has a line, and if your kid crossed whatever that line is for you, you would do SOMETHING. No loving, involved parent just sits back and watches their child try harder and harder drugs until they are an addict.

One parent I knew sent her son to a wilderness program and then a boarding school to get him far, far away from his friend set and connections. I think that is a lot harsher than testing.


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## Viola P (Sep 14, 2013)

Testing crosses way over a line into a persons right to privacy. It's not a privilege, it's a right, or at least it should be, and u would never want to teach my child otherwise or to normalize that. 

I can't believe people actually rationalize that!


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this mindset. I see no parallel between a _police officer_ seeing _current evidence_ of _public endangerment_ through intoxication and a parent or friend or employer being suspicious that a person may have been intoxicated at some point in the previous few days. I'm obviously seeing this through a very different cultural lens some of you, so I'll bow out of the discussion for now.

Miranda


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

:blah :soapbox :duck :foot :nono02

There. That just about covers it. I satisfied my itch to post without actually saying anything.


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