# please remind me that this is normal. any tips?



## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

I am starting to wonder as I am in a playgroup and an exercise class where I am exposed to a lot of talk about sleep in mainstream type households. We cosleep and my 7 month old son wakes up at least 4-5 times per night. So it's about every 2 hours, sometimes a little more. A 3 hour stretch is a luxury these days. This is a baby who did a 5-6 hour stretch every single night for the first 2.5 months of life. I sometimes wonder if cosleeping made a "good" sleeper into a freqent waker. While there is some variation, the pattern stays fairly steady through growth spurts, teething, developmental leaps, etc. It's not attributable to any of that in particular, although we will usually have a few particularly crazy nights of waking every hour around those times. In addition, he is a cat-napper. He usually only naps for a half-hour or so twice a day. Sometimes he'll do an hour and a half or 2 hours, but that is sporadic.

During the day, I am lucky if I can get him to nurse every 3 or so hours. I keep offering it, but if he doesn't want it, he won't take it. If I don't keep after him during the day though, he will completely reverse cycle. Even when he's not reverse cycled, he is nursing at more freqent intervals at night than during the day. We started him on solids a few weeks ago but have started slowly and he is self-feeding for the most part.

I don't know that I need to do anything structured like NCSS yet at this point. I am still getting enough sleep to function well enough. But after being able to accept his patterns and go with the flow pretty well up to now, I am starting to wish he would not wake so frequently. Is this "normal" for a 7+ month old? When might this change? Just wondering if anyone has words of wisdom.


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## musemor (Mar 19, 2004)

Sooooooo normal! My daughter was a great sleeper until about four months. Between four and five months, her sleep completely deteriorated until her long stretches were 90 minutes MAX. Thirty minute naps, you know the drill...once she learned how to crawl, her sleep repaired itself in a matter of days and she was back to daytime nursing/nighttime sleeping. Of course, it's all gone downhill again now that she has learned to walk, but it was great there for a few months! I bet you'll see sleep improvements in the next month or two. Hang in there!


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## jadzia's_mommy (Jun 9, 2005)

Yes, it is normal! I'm on my 2nd babe now, or I think the woman in art class with the 4 month old who brags EVERY week about how he slept 13 hours last night would make me mental.







: My oldest DD was not a good sleeper, and I still wouldn't change a thing. If anything with DD #2 I have been more laid back about it. The time goes so fast. My oldest DD is now 2 1/2 and she sleeps through most nights, aside from the occasional bad dream or something. As long as you feel okay with the amount of sleep you're getting, don't sweat it. It'll be gone in a flash.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Very normal. My boys both would sleep a 5 hour stretch in their early weeks, only to wake more often as the months progressed. I don't know if it is related to a milestone, stress of learning more, increased nutritional needs, etc, but it is pretty common. If you are comfortable & getting enough sleep, then don't worry about it. Your dd will get through it, and she will sleep better. I can't tell you when- they all mature at a their own rates- but it will happen. It just seems to take forever when you are sleep deprived.


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

my now dd2 (8 months) same thing. during the day she will only 3 times, going down for am and pm naps and at bedtime. so I feel she really needs the milk during the night. but for us and I think alot of other co-sleepers, we do wake eachother up and babe can smell mamas milk... so sometimes I feel we would all sleep better, longer stretches if we did not co-sleep.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Well, I can tell you that anyone I have ever talked to that did NOT cosleep and sometimes let baby cry for a minute to just see if he/she fell back asleep say they have sleep issues when they get older. I know one woman who says she is constantly having to *teach* her now 2 year old how to sleep again. She fights bedtime, wakes up wandering upset, wants to crawl in bed with them, etc.

My 2.5 year old loves to sleep now. He was like the world's most frequent waker untill about 18 months to 2 years as he slowly started sleeping a bit longer at a time. Even at 2 he was waking a few times to nurse. Then suddenly a few months later, he just stopped waking much at all. He doesn't nurse now at all, and still wakes me up once maybe twice a night, but only for a drink or to hold a hand or something.

I think in the "short run," it sucks sometimes, it really does seem awful. But somewhere around 2 or 2.5 a lot of kids just start getting it. They start liking to sleep and don't need the night nursings so much. Now I see how much it is worth it. I had a fairly easy time, except for the first few weeks post pardum with my second. I do ok off little sleep, but that is where DH picked up the slack







.

I know a couple years seems a long time, but you will have a MUCH more secure sleeper if you let them learn how to sleep from security rather than 'because no one cares to tend to them anyway' sort of thinking. I sense you know this already...but it can be frustrating thinking of all the people who's babies "learn" how to sleep. Or rather, learn that no one will help them anyways, so might as well not cry.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I do have to say, that the only people I know with sleep problems after a couple of months old, are people here on the forum. The people I know in real life (unless they lying), have babies that sleep pretty well (usually in cribs) after 4-6 months of age. They may wake up once, but that's about it. Mine were big babies and slept through the night after about a month old, so I was lucky!


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

I wouldn't say the ONLY people I know with sleep problems in older babies and toddlers are on this forum, but they seem more prevalent here. Like, on this forum, that's the norm, but elsewhere it's the exception.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
I wouldn't say the ONLY people I know with sleep problems in older babies and toddlers are on this forum, but they seem more prevalent here. Like, on this forum, that's the norm, but elsewhere it's the exception.

Yup, this has been my experience as well. I have one other friend who wakes often with her children and she is very AP. Everyone else has babies who sleep...at least better than mine.

However, I would never change our nighttime parenting and I now have a 4yo who sleeps very securely in his own bed...he coslept until he was 3 1/2 and he nursed at night for over a year. I was exhausted but now I feel that our decision was the best...I never question whether or not I let him down or lost any of his trust in me to respond to his needs.

But I wouldn't say that all children will move to longer sleep stretches without any help. That was not our experience. Both of mine began frequent night nursing after about 3 months of age. At about 8 to 12 months, we began encouraging longer sleep stretches because it wasn't happening on its own and I was frazzled with exhaustion.

If you're getting enough sleep and feel rested enough the next day, keep at it! I think it is really normal at that age to wake often.


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## Mom22luvbugz (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
I wouldn't say the ONLY people I know with sleep problems in older babies and toddlers are on this forum, but they seem more prevalent here. Like, on this forum, that's the norm, but elsewhere it's the exception.

I agree with this.

In the interest of being supportive, I'd say that what you're experiencing is extremely normal given your family's choices about how to approach nighttime parenting.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
I wouldn't say the ONLY people I know with sleep problems in older babies and toddlers are on this forum, but they seem more prevalent here. Like, on this forum, that's the norm, but elsewhere it's the exception.

Hmm, I look at it differently. You're seeing mainly the problems on this forum because people come here desperate for help--there are plenty of us with older babies/toddler who sleep very well, but you're not going to see many posts about that (you do occasionally see a positive post).

To make the assumption that you're making, it would be kind of like going over to the health forum and saying "gosh, these babies sure do get sick a lot--I better not practice AP!"

Sleep is such a touchy thing in our society, filled with expectations that are often terribly unrealistic. I think it's wonderful that this forum plays a role in helping people understand what is biologically normal and healthy for babies and young children.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *summerbabe* 
A 3 hour stretch is a luxury these days. This is a baby who did a 5-6 hour stretch every single night for the first 2.5 months of life. I sometimes wonder if cosleeping made a "good" sleeper into a freqent waker.

My DD was the same way as your DS. And I had the same thoughts, that I did something to make her a bad sleeper (we went on a trip, she had terrible jetlag at about that age, and I thought this was what did it).

This article really helped me understand what happens at about that age and why they start waking so much. It happened at about 3 months for us, but it was just like this article describes. http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/4mo-sleep.html


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

normal. i think mainstreamers just do not realize that babe wakes up more frequently than 6 hrs in the other room.

we cosleep with a 20 mo, she still wakes up 3-4 times at night, snuggles and falls back asleep.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

You're seeing mainly the problems on this forum because people come here desperate for help--there are plenty of us with older babies/toddler who sleep very well
Well, yes, but people on other forums discuss sleep issues, too, as do people IRL. For older babies and toddlers, the sleep problems here seem more severe and the mamas more sleep-deprived and desparate, compared to those having sleep problems/asking for nighttime parenting advice elsewhere.


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## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
Well, yes, but people on other forums discuss sleep issues, too, as do people IRL. For older babies and toddlers, the sleep problems here seem more severe and the mamas more sleep-deprived and desparate, compared to those having sleep problems/asking for nighttime parenting advice elsewhere.

Shakti A--despite the view in your post here, I see you have a co-sleeping icon in your signature. What's your personal experience with this if you don't mind me asking? Do you cosleep and just accept frequent waking as part of the deal, or have you quit cosleeping, or so you cosleep without frequent waking?


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
Well, yes, but people on other forums discuss sleep issues, too, as do people IRL. For older babies and toddlers, the sleep problems here seem more severe and the mamas more sleep-deprived and desparate, compared to those having sleep problems/asking for nighttime parenting advice elsewhere.

That's because of our society's expectations about sleep--they don't coincide with what is biologically normal for babies. Desperation often sets in when our babies don't follow what our society has told us is "normal."

The people on those other forums have often adopted training techniques that make their babies more like what is considered "normal," but in truth the techniques have major consequences to a child's psychological and physical health.

We're here to learn how to work with what is biologically normal and approrpriate sleep behavior. I really encourage you to read the forum guidelines in the sticky at the top. Peggy O'Mara does such a wonderful job talking about our expectations about sleep and re-learning to accept our babies' biology. Good luck!


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

As I've stated in other threads, my kids both started co-sleeping full-time. When they got rolly/wiggly/crawly we started putting them down in the crib when they first went to sleep, then moving back into bed when they woke after we were in bed. This was probably around six months old for each. Neither was waking more than twice a night by this time, and by a year or so, they were pretty much in the crib until they woke to nurse around 3 or 4 and came into bed. My 2-y-o daughter still does. We never left them to CIO in the crib, nor did we put them into it already asleep as a rule. We established a bedtime ritual that included nursing, stories, snuggling and rubbing their backs for a bit in the crib. We made the move to the crib for safety, not frequent waking (that I can recall), but if we had had problems with frequent waking in an older baby or toddler, I certainly would have considered it a problem. Long periods of continuous sleep are important for the child's cognitive development, as well as mama's sanity, so I would have considered it part of my job as a parent to help my child sleep better.

I suppose that if the law of the land here is that you're not cosleeping if the child has their own part-time bed, I can remove the icon. Whatever.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
That's because of our society's expectations about sleep--they don't coincide with what is biologically normal for babies. Desperation often sets in when our babies don't follow what our society has told us is "normal."











Sorry to go down this line of the conversation any further, but I have to chime in about my own experience...and I don't think I'm alone.

For me, desperation _never_ had anything to do with what society has told me about normal sleep habits. Desperation set in because sleep deprivation is not healthy and I was feeling beyond exhausted and ill from lack of sleep. I am someone who does not function well at all without adequate sleep (and by that I mean I need at least a 3 or 4 hour stretch once at night to feel remotely human the next day).

Now, we do cosleep and never in a million years would CIO. But there are loads of other ways to nighttime parent without CIO and without mom being awake all night. I think it's often helpful to share this reality with other moms because just waiting for it to pass is not always possible for every family.

Ok, back to the topic at hand!!


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## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 

I suppose that if the law of the land here is that you're not cosleeping if the child has their own part-time bed, I can remove the icon. Whatever.

Shakti--I wasn't suggesting anything wrong with your having the icon, and I certainly wouldn't think I should remove mine when and if we switch to a part-time child bed. I really was just interested in your experience since clearly you advocate co-sleeping to some degree (hence the icon), but your posts indicated some concerns about it. And I have not read your other threads. No offense intended whatsoever--just an inquiry.


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## liam's mom (Jun 18, 2003)

it's definitely normal. ds2 is almost a year and wakes at least every 2 hours to nurse.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I truly believe that a lot of people exagerate and outright lie about their kid getting more sleep than they really do, because they are tired of being judged about it, as if it had anything to do with their value or skill as a parent.

In mainstream culture it's a dirty little secret that people don't admit that their kids wake more than they want, in my opinion.

Then there are those kids who really do sleep. It's a combination.

The biggest myth is that they all start sleeping through and that never changes again. Most babies I've met change their sleeping patterns several times over the first year or two of their life.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

I do believe that CIO can lead to later sleep issues. We know one family who Ferberized, and they seem to having weird sleep issues now that the kids are a little older (they essentially co-sleep part-time NOW in an odd musical beds dance). On the other hand, as I've said, I believe uninterrupted long periods of sleep are important for cognitive development. Also, sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture for a reason. I can't think of anything worse than waking a babe who really just wants to stay asleep in the name of comfort.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marion10* 
Every person I know who has extended co-slept has been exhausted.

I for one am not. In fact, what I find exhausting is having to head to another room to get a baby, wake myself all the way up, sit up while nursing, and then drag myself back to my room. Now that's exhausting!


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## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

What you described is virtually identical to how my 7 month old sleeps.

I know that mainstream moms tend to stop offering food at night after 4 or 6 months, and some turn down or turn off the baby monitor so that they'll only hear the baby "if he really needs them." Meaning, if the baby gets so worked up that he's screaming his fool head off. My co-sleeping little one wakes frequently and tends to catnap as well, but she is easily soothed when she does wake and we're both getting enough sleep to function comfortably. It works for us, even if it's not "normal" by most Americans' standards.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

It's funny...this time around with ds#2 I find cosleeping and nursing at night much more exhausting than with ds#1. I think it's a combination of my being older and just more tired from being a mom for over 4 years now. I'm struggling with back aches and physical pain that I don't remember with ds#1. Maybe I had it then and just can't remember.

We do a "musical beds" kind of thing now.







The baby sleeps in our room in his crib for the first half of the night with me going in to nurse once at midnight (during this time, dh and I are sleeping in another room downstairs!). Then my dh takes care of him until about 4 and then I go in and sleep with him in our bed for the rest of the night. It is a little crazy but it's the best arrangement we've come up with so far in order for us to get a little bit of sleep.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eurobin* 
What you described is virtually identical to how my 7 month old sleeps.

I know that mainstream moms tend to stop offering food at night after 4 or 6 months, and some turn down or turn off the baby monitor so that they'll only hear the baby "if he really needs them." Meaning, if the baby gets so worked up that he's screaming his fool head off. My co-sleeping little one wakes frequently and tends to catnap as well, but she is easily soothed when she does wake and we're both getting enough sleep to function comfortably. It works for us, even if it's not "normal" by most Americans' standards.

That is so wonderful that it's working well for you. I think that's the ideal situation.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

:

Nighttime parenting is no different than parenting any other time of the day. It's particular to the parents and the children and what works for one doesn't work for all. I also think it's important for parents to know that there are other ways to nighttime parent besides nursing...that just puts so much on the mama. If the mama can handle it, terrific. If not, there are so many other ways to do it where everyone gets some sleep.


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## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

Thanks so much, everyone for your responses. All of it is very helpful...from reminders that there is a wide range of normal and this time will pass quickly and control is often an illusion....to those who say there are things you can adjust if you're exhausted. We decided we are going to try the crib, just until his first waking to nurse and see if he sleeps longer at the first stretch. We just set it up for the first time--it was in pieces in our basement. I am looking at it as an experiment, and if it seems hard on him or if I end up getting less sleep due to having to get out of bed, out it goes. But we have hemmed and hawwed about whether we should try it we decided to just go ahead. If that doesn't work for us, then I'll just get over it and go back to what we were doing since we are all getting enough sleep to function OK. Then I'll just put my fingers in my ears and go "lalalalalalala" when all the other moms talk about how their babies never wake up! And remind myself that there are good reasons why I'm doing things differently.


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## Bird Girl (Mar 12, 2007)

I really do feel that every baby is different, though. My first child, my daughter, could not sleep in bed with us, but was very happy in our bedroom in her baby hammock. She slept through the night at about 12 weeks. I would wake her up when I went to bed and give her a nurse, and then she'd go back to sleep until 7 or 8 in the morning. My second child is much more of a co-sleeper, and he will still, at 20 months, wake up sometimes in the middle of the night, just to have his back rubbed and make sure we are still there.

My pediatrician recommended keeping them in our room, but in a seperate bed. I know folks here feel that co-sleeping is as safe as seperate sleeping, but all of the safe shared sleep advisories recommend making sure that the parents are not exhausted. I think that if you are getting exhausted, try a seperate sleep arrangement in the same room, and see how that works. It's not an either/or situation. You can have a crib in your room, or try a hammock, or have them in your bed. If one thing stops working, try something else.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Summerbabe, you have the perfect attitude. Give it a try and know that you can always change things around or revert back to what you were doing before. I hope the crib gives you a little more sleep! It did for us with our second. Our first never used the crib...I thought we would sell it brand new but now we're getting a little use out of it with babe #2.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!


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## Mom22luvbugz (Feb 17, 2007)

_If one thing stops working, try something else._

This is exactly it, and this advice applies across a wide realm of parenting issues. There are a variety of gentle and loving ways to make the family system run peacefully for everyone.


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## Bunches (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm glad I read this post. I needed some reassurance. I have a 5 month old and it seems he has been waking more frequently lately and he is not a "consistent" napper like my 1st ds was. I know "this too shall pass" but it can be tough sometimes. I also have friends with children who seem to "sleep through the night" and I'm just amazed. But, I don't want to restrict his night nursing or co-sleeping because instinctually it just "feels right" to me.
I must admit I was REALLY cranky and unable to keep my perspective and patience yesterday with my 2 year old after having a particularly rough night with the 5 month old. I felt so guilty about it. Today was a better day.

Reading these posts has been really HELPFUL. Thank you. I too now have a toddler who still co-sleeps and sleeps through the night. When he was younger, I felt as if that might never happen and it did. Time does pass quickly and I am trying to remind myself of that each night.


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

It is totally normal. This sleep through the night and for 6 hour stretches, and 3 set naps a day and yada, yada, yada. It's all the "norm" as decided on by docs. In reality we ALL wake up several times a night. Most people who claim their babies are sleeping through the night, are lying so they fit the norm. You don't still need your mom to help you get back to sleep, and your little one will learn to fall back asleep on her own too. It's sucky now, but it goes soooo fast.


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## Mom22luvbugz (Feb 17, 2007)

Lots of babies do sleep through the night, and the parents who say so shouldn't be assumed to be lying.


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## formerluddite (Nov 16, 2006)

sounds like he's making up for lost calories, since you say he doesn't nurse much in the daytime. my dd2 was like this, some days around a year i would get the kids home from the park and realize she hadn't nursed all day, because she wouldn't ask, and i'd forget to offer, what with driving dd1 to/from preschool, grocery shopping, etc. once she was mobile she was always too distractible to nurse anywhere but home (would rather play with the steering wheel than nurse in the car, etc.). and those months she nursed a lot (4-7x) at night. once she got older, say 15 mos, she got back into daytime nursing, every 2-4hrs, and nursed less at night.

and i think "all those babies" don't sleep without waking, they and their parents have mostly done CIO (even in the bay area it seems 90% do), and baby has learned no one is coming. and the parents aren't checking to see if their baby IS sleeping, are they? like video monitoring or anything? baby is probably waking, looking around for thet pacifier and stuffed animal, listening to the fake heartbeat sound, and going back to sleep because there isn't any other choice.

[[and this is way OT, but isn't the whole "lovey" thing an admission that babies/kids NEED to sleep with someone? and the next time i hear "he's using you for a pacifier" i'll scream!! babies need pacifiers when they don't get to have mothers!!! ok, rant off]].


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Our crib is in our room, so I can say with close to certaintly that that's NOT what happens. She rolls over or stirs, partially wakes up, grumbles, moans, whimpers, or sometimes sighs, and goes back into deep sleep. Essentially the same thing you or I do a few times a night.

Now, as I said, I didn't do CIO, and MOST parents I know didn't either -- and I'm the crunchiest, most AP among my friends, so I'm talking about half a dozen pretty mainstream parents. Why you should assume that everyone who has successfully helped their baby learn to sleep is lying about both method and results is beyond me, but I find it rather offensive.


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## mamabear&babybear (Dec 20, 2004)

I wanted to post my personal experience.
We didn't cosleep with dd1 at first. My dh was against it, and I didn't argue (partly because I didn't have the facts). She slept in a crib next to our bed and I would get up and take her into the living room to feed her during the night. In the beginning she slept 2 hour stretchs. However, the older she became the less she slept. When she was 6 months old she was sleeping for 20 minutes at a time.







: I don't remember much of her 5th and 6th month of life. Eventually I just brought her to bed and didn't care what dh said. At that point she started sleeping 3-4 hour stretches. She is now, at 2.5, sleeping in her own bed next to ours. Sometimes she sleeps through the night, sometimes she wakes up 5+ times needing snuggles for a few minutes, and sometimes she joins us in our bed. I think it is all perfectly normal. On the nights that she wakes up often, I think she has nightmares, is too hot, is too cold, her arm falls alseep, she wants her diaper changed etc. I never tried to extend her sleep hours; she did that naturally when the time was right.

DD2, who is now 6 weeks old, has been sleeping in our bed from the beginning. She sleeps 2-6 hour stretches depending on the night. Sometimes she snuggles right next to me and other times she wants her space. She is also easy to settle back to sleep unlike dd1. I don't know if she is sleeping better than her sister because of cosleeping or personality, but I am enjoying the sleep.

I'm not sure what my point is other than do what works best for you and your dc. I think all babes are different and will need different amounts and kinds of care at night just as they do during the day. I think we as a society need to accept that people have different personalities and needs, and not try to fit everyone into the same proverbial(sp?) box.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I'm not sure why people think that those of us who have babies that sleep through the night must be lying or letting them cry? The first night my oldest slept through the night (at three weeks, really), I thought he was dead and was afraid to look at him. But no, he was just snoozing. I'm not saying they slept every single night through, but mostly, they did. They were just good sleepers and big babies. Yes, they did maybe wake, grunt a little, roll over and go back to sleep, just like adults do. Some people sleep without waking, some just resettle themselves, and I think babies can do this too.


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## Mom22luvbugz (Feb 17, 2007)

Another one here who didn't use CIO, and had good sleepers from early on. It's truly offensive to suggest that people are somehow lying or abusive if their kid sleeps well. It smacks of jealousy and/or Crunchier Than Thou ideology, and is not helpful to anyone.

(and re: the lovey hypothesis, let's not create another point in the NFL / AP manifesto, shall we? Lots of kids have favorite blankies, stuffed animals, etc., and that fact has zero to do with whether their parents use CIO, or whatever, nor is it a mother-substitute, for goodness sake. If a kid can resnuggle with a favorite soft blankie and go back to sleep on his own, why on earth would a loving mother take that away, or deny him the ability to sleep peacefully in his own way?)


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

summerbabe--thought this Mothering article might be helpful


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

I just want to clarify that what I stated was just my opinion and experince with my own babies and what I've been told by others. I certainly do not feel crunchier than thou by any means, nor was I trying to insult anyone whose babe sleeps. Just forget I said anything. I was only trying to commiserate with a fellow mom up every couple of hours.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

I don't think anyone objects to the commiseration -- just painting so many of us and our friends as liars.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I have to say, I am _so_ envious of those of you with good sleepers!! For me, the hardest part of parenting babies is the sleep deprivation...I would love to know what it feels like with some decent sleep at night!

I am happy for anyone who's child is a good sleeper...it's a godsend. I think some of the snide comments come from exhaustion and disbelief that it could be any different when you have a babe that wakes so frequently. I can understand that perspective as well and I don't think it's meant personally.

But it's good for all of us to remember that there is no formula. We are all human beings doing the best we can with the unique little bundles that we're given.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I only read the first page of this thread and was kind of put off by the tone of some posts but . . .

What you're describing is and was normal for my family. My 13 month old wakes 3-4 times per night to nurse back to sleep and has since birth. He co-sleeps. My 4.5 year old did the same until she was 18 months or so. She was a crib sleeper til then (and then her sleep went totally down hill until we got her a bed). The only difference I noticed was that dd slept 5 hour stretches for the first couple months, but ds never did. My older child stopped night nursing around 2, when she would wake, wander into our room, and be asleep on my shoulder by the time I carried her back to her crib. She slept through the night starting around three, right before her brother was born.

I do believe that every child will come around to sleeping well in his or her own time. I am not a fan of structure and routine, I would actually prefer to be a bit tired for a few years (okay, going on 5 now), and am not expecting to sleep through the night until the little guy hits three or so.

I laugh when people talk about their all-night-sleeping infants. They seem to think that's something to be proud of. I'd say it's a much bigger achievement to be woken up multiple times a night for several years and still be a functional, happy person.


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## Bird Girl (Mar 12, 2007)

Well, I think that if you have a baby who needs to eat a few times per night, say a reverse cycler or what have you, then obviously, it will work best to keep them in bed with you, or right next door in a sidecar-type arrangement. But if your baby isn't a big nighttime eater, it's not necessarily because you've shut them in a closet until they gave up on any hope of response. Some babies just don't need to eat at night.

I think that what the original poster was having trouble with was a baby who would not unlatch, essentially, all night long. I don't think there's any mom who could put up with that--not unless she had nipples of steel!









So the issue was not, does your baby sleep through or don't they, but rather, does a baby need to nurse literally all night long, or is there another way to meet those nighttime needs. I didn't see anyone here who was demanding that she shut the baby off in another room and ignore her screams, so let's not set that up as a straw man.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Yes, the OP asked if this was normal AND if any of us had any tips for moving along to a little more sleep.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

I am not a fan of structure and routine
Some babies are fine with this, but some really do better and are happier with some structure and routine. It's not always imposed on children by parents for the parents' convenience; sometimes it comes from paying attention to what the child needs.


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## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bird Girl* 
I think that what the original poster was having trouble with was a baby who would not unlatch, essentially, all night long. .

This is not our situation. What I said in my original post was that he wakes up 4-5 times a night, which is usually every couple of hours. I reread my post, and I didn't see anything there suggesting he is attached to the nipple all night long. Perhaps what I didn't make clear is that while he wakes frequently, he is very easy to soothe back to sleep by nursing, and will unlatch himself or be unlatched by me when back asleep. Actually, I'm not even sure who does the unlatching half the time because I am often asleep by the end of the feed.

I'll write more of an update later, but just wanted to clear that up.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I reread your OP and I guess it's a little confusing to me what you're asking...and it's so interesting that it started quite a debate!

Sounds like you're ok with the nightwaking but found yourself questioning it after others were talking about their sleeping babies? If you're ok with it, don't change anything. If you feel you need a change, then you've heard a lot of ways to try encouraging more sleep.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you're ok with the frequent waking. I think it is VERY normal for a young baby to wake at night. It becomes a bit of a dance between mama and baby when the nightwaking becomes intolerable to the mama.


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## summerbabe (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
I reread your OP and I guess it's a little confusing to me what you're asking...and it's so interesting that it started quite a debate!

Sounds like you're ok with the nightwaking but found yourself questioning it after others were talking about their sleeping babies? If you're ok with it, don't change anything. If you feel you need a change, then you've heard a lot of ways to try encouraging more sleep.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you're ok with the frequent waking. I think it is VERY normal for a young baby to wake at night. It becomes a bit of a dance between mama and baby when the nightwaking becomes intolerable to the mama.


You are exactly right, and that's what I was planning to post about in my update. We are going to keep the crib set up for now. I like having him nap in it and we've been putting him to bed initially in it, although he as been in our bed by the time we go to bed or shortly thereafter, which is fine.

I've been going through a bit of a process the last few days trying to decide what our son needs, what we want, etc. I do have a little bit of difficulty when we have a couple of nights of every hour waking around teething, etc., but that is very occasional so it's fine. Other than that, the only time I get frustrated with the sleep patterns is when I start giving too much thought to what other people are doing instead of focusing on our situation and what works for us.

The reality is, my DS is happy and thriving. And on the amount of sleep I'm getting, I am able to function happily 90% of the time on no naps, one cup of coffee a day, and leading an active lifestyle which includes a serious workout. So if I just focus on that, then it appears we do not have any problems!

Thanks to those who have shared their experiences--all have helped. Peggy O'Mara article helped as well. Also, I just got Jon and Myla Kabat-Zinn's book Everyday Blessings: Mindful Parenting and since it was timely I turned right to the chapter on the family bed and got a lot of reassurance and validation from that as well. So, for the time being we will remain a mostly co-sleeping family and stop worrying about the night waking!


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## Bird Girl (Mar 12, 2007)

I'm sorry Summer, I must have confused you with another poster. How embarrassing!









I'm glad you feel like your family is on the right track. That's what's important.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie* 
I'm not sure why people think that those of us who have babies that sleep through the night must be lying or letting them cry? The first night my oldest slept through the night (at three weeks, really), I thought he was dead and was afraid to look at him. But no, he was just snoozing. I'm not saying they slept every single night through, but mostly, they did. They were just good sleepers and big babies. Yes, they did maybe wake, grunt a little, roll over and go back to sleep, just like adults do. Some people sleep without waking, some just resettle themselves, and I think babies can do this too.


Agreed. My daughter has almost always slept wonderfully through the night...from 8pm to 730/8am with one wake around 5ish, give or take an hour, for food, then right back to sleep. She sleeps in her own crib. She is a LOUD sleeper...she moves, babbles, makes funny noises, etc. She's done this since she was a few weeks old (seriously, this kid would start at one end of her crib, and half an hour later be at the other end). So, she obviously wakes up every so often, but settles herself down right away in her crib (our room is right next to hers, and we sleep with doors open, so, we hear her if she cries). If she cries, we go and get her.

In our bed, holy cow. She'll sleep quite nicely if you get in with her already asleep. But, god help you in a couple hours when she wakes up. Then it's Party Time! She will take over an hour to settle down because she tries to climb over Mama and Da-da, wants to see what's off THAT edge of the bed, has to try to find Puppy, likes to rock the headboard back and forth, etc. We've tried multiple times, and it's the same old story....sleep for two hours, wake up, play for an hour, go back to sleep for a couple hours, wake for another hour of play, etc. And then there are three cranky people the next morning.

I've got no problem with her co-sleeping if she later ends up wanting that (co SLEEPING emphasized), but, for now, it seems like her being in her crib is best for everyone (she does nap on me in her bjorn, however; won't nap in her crib! Crazy kid).


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Thanks to those who have shared their experiences--all have helped. Peggy O'Mara article helped as well. Also, I just got Jon and Myla Kabat-Zinn's book Everyday Blessings: Mindful Parenting and since it was timely I turned right to the chapter on the family bed and got a lot of reassurance and validation from that as well. So, for the time being we will remain a mostly co-sleeping family and stop worrying about the night waking!
summerbabe---thanks so much for the happy update







keep following your intuition and your heart and looking to your sweet little guy--they won't steer you wrong


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Well, my baby is only 4 months old but your dc's sleep patterns sound very similar to his. He is usually rather easy to put down to bed and he'll sleep a 3-4 hour stretch at first. But when he wakes that first time...he's awake every 1-2 hours after that for the rest of the night. He wants to nurse pretty much constantly too. Personally, I don't think anything would be different if he were in a crib. Actually, I'd probably just be getting out of bed a lot more.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *summerbabe* 
I am starting to wonder as I am in a playgroup and an exercise class where I am exposed to a lot of talk about sleep in mainstream type households. We cosleep and my 7 month old son wakes up at least 4-5 times per night. So it's about every 2 hours, sometimes a little more. A 3 hour stretch is a luxury these days. This is a baby who did a 5-6 hour stretch every single night for the first 2.5 months of life. I sometimes wonder if cosleeping made a "good" sleeper into a freqent waker. While there is some variation, the pattern stays fairly steady through growth spurts, teething, developmental leaps, etc. It's not attributable to any of that in particular, although we will usually have a few particularly crazy nights of waking every hour around those times. In addition, he is a cat-napper. He usually only naps for a half-hour or so twice a day. Sometimes he'll do an hour and a half or 2 hours, but that is sporadic.

During the day, I am lucky if I can get him to nurse every 3 or so hours. I keep offering it, but if he doesn't want it, he won't take it. If I don't keep after him during the day though, he will completely reverse cycle. Even when he's not reverse cycled, he is nursing at more freqent intervals at night than during the day. We started him on solids a few weeks ago but have started slowly and he is self-feeding for the most part.

I don't know that I need to do anything structured like NCSS yet at this point. I am still getting enough sleep to function well enough. But after being able to accept his patterns and go with the flow pretty well up to now, I am starting to wish he would not wake so frequently. Is this "normal" for a 7+ month old? When might this change? Just wondering if anyone has words of wisdom.

Its normal! My dd1 would sleep from 2 mos until 6 mos for 7 hours and then it went away until she was at least 15 mos. It was tough after having that good sleep time back but you will get thru it eventually. She also got up to nurse at night. And yes, it was after she started solids as well. And with the second one, it goes so much faster so it will get better. I IMHO dont think the cosleeping had anything to do with the sleeper he is but he wants his nursing and he needs it.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

very normal! And to me, it's more important for us to bond than me to get that full night of sleep (I can't even remember what that feels like!)

Don't let people get you down!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

My DD nurses more at night if she's in the bed with us. She has done this since she was born, though she's always been a "good sleeper". We sleep in the same room in adjascent beds so I definitely hear her if she stirs.

She makes up for eating less at night by nursing more during the day and sleeping less. I think we just wake her up more with our stirring (and vice-versa) and that is why she sleeps better in her own bed. I never let her cry, much less CIO.

I do not think that either pattern (more night cuddling or more day cuddling) is abnormal, unloving, or less attached, personally.

I think that what works for one family might not work for another. You never know what your kid would be like if you didn't share a bed. Maybe you'd be up all night to a screaming baby. Maybe you'd be thinking you had to rock him to sleep for hours at a time before he fell asleep. Maybe he'd sleep through the night and nurse your boobs off during the day.

You just don't know. So provided you and baby are feeling healthy and happy, why worry about normal? Who cares? Do what's right for you.

(PS- regarding the idea that perhaps co-sleeping is the source of the problem- I doubt it- My SIL doesn't co-sleep and her DS, 18 months, wakes ever HOUR to nurse. She even lets him cry before she gets up and he will cry EVERY. HOUR. I stayed over at their place and it was a nightmare. She weaned him early because she was sick of not having slept for an entire year.







I know another woman who wasn't co-sleeping until finally she got so sick of getting up every two hours that she brought her baby into bed with her and VOILA- baby and mommy both sleep through the night. So, there ya go.)


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
I wouldn't say the ONLY people I know with sleep problems in older babies and toddlers are on this forum, but they seem more prevalent here. Like, on this forum, that's the norm, but elsewhere it's the exception.

This is my experience, too... almost all the parents I know are much more mainstream than I am (FF, use pacifiers, never co-slept, CIO'd) and their kids ALL always slept through the night at an early age. We were definitely the exception when it came to sleep.

It really made me second guess my parenting choices, since DD woke up a lot at night... DH and I went around quite a few times on this one -- he thought maybe we were just making things a lot tougher on ourselves than we had to, since everybody else seemed to be getting a full night's sleep. I made sure we stuck with what we were doing, and I'm glad I did, but it did sometimes feel frustrating to "compare".


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## wobbema (Mar 19, 2007)

my ds is 6,5 months old and i recognise every word!!!!

but whem i sleep a little further away from him (yesterday i spoiled water on the bed so we coulnd lay close to each other) and he wasn+t waking up so often!
I think that whenever he feels me, he´s just reminded that drinking a bit is nice, too!!!
well, i don´t mind to be honest!

angela!


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