# So why isn't RF in the front seat a U.S. option



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Why don't we have on/off switches for airbags?
Why don't we have crash test units that allow for a foot brace to support heavier and taller children rear facing?
Why don't we have the option to RF our kids for as long as possible?

How many kids who were injured or killed because they were changed FF due to in car screaming would still be totally fine if they could've sat up front where they could see a parent?

How many parents would have had less stress and thereby been better parents if they could've had their baby up front where they could be checked on with a glance?

Yeah, I know, for some families it wouldn't work to have a LO up front. Some families it also works best to have the kids in cribs, doesn't mean that's best or safest for everyone.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I would guess... that the mentality in the US is that people can't be trusted to turn airbags on and off properly.

No foot on the sled is a continuing issue- from my understanding we need to revamp how seats are tested here. We didn't have any seats that rf above 35lbs because they didn't have a dummy to use (or that was the word on the street...)

-Angela


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Uh...would it be against the UAV to say our gov't sucks?
Really, it's all about bureaucracy and the fact it takes forever to change mentalities and thinking and to push through new testing procedures and to do research.
And, the fact is, that we have a huge dichotomy here in the united states....many people still consider it a violation of their "personal freedoms" to have to use carseats at all.
Then you have the other fcactors....which is that most crashes are caused by impaired and distracted drivers, and from a bottom line perspective, spending money and time and energy to reduce those risky behaviors is going to save more kids per dollar than any other form of intervention. If noone ever drank and drove, or texted while driving, or use the phone while driving, we could probably reduce our crash rate by..gosh..a lot. I'm not sure the actual number. And if everyone simply USED a carseat, a properly installed carseat, for their children, injury rates are cut down to 1/4 what they are now. That's an actual statistic.
In the grand scheme of things, the number of children who would have been saved by being rearfacing versus forward facing in the second, or third, fourth, etc year of life is a very small number compared to the ones who would be saved by so many other causes there are to promote. The fact is, a properly installed and used carseat is truly, the majority of the battle.
OF course I would love to see all little kids rearfacing, and of course my own kid is going to rearface until at least 4, probably 5 or 6.
But in terms of overal grand scheme/big picture numbners, ...just using carseats, with the actual straps and everything, would be a HUGE improvement.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Of course, now I'm wondering how many kid's would be in proper carseats if the parents could buy one seat and have it fit from birth to age 6 (or 8 for smaller kids)? (And had that long of an expiration limit, which I know some seats do). Only one seat, one install to learn, use it for 6 years, then go to a booster which doesn't have an install.

Oooo,







dream....


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I live in Europe and I can turn off my airbag. For the record, I never put my kids in the front seat, even now. My last car didn't have that feature but mine are in the back, period.

I have to chime in here to say that it is really easy to forget to turn it off. I've done this when we had an extra kid in the car. I've also forgotten to turn it on when there was an adult. I'm pretty safety-conscience but I forget so heaven help someone who would do the same but there was an infant up there...

I agree that parents might be less distracted with the child up front. Also, those horrible, horrible baby-left-in-car stories would be less likely.

If the technology improves, they might put a weight minimum to turn on the airbag automatically for the front seat. So how it would work is that the airbag turns on if someone of a certain (adult) weigh sits there and stays off if no one, or something light like a baby is placed in that seat. I wont hold my breathe for that!

Better to have a universal babies-go-behind rule and stick to it. Like the pp said, the real battle lies in getting parents to use car seats correctly. Side tracking with certain conveniences has to take a back seat (pun intended) for now...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

We have those weight sensors on US cars now. They're not very reliable.

-Angela


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
We have those weight sensors on US cars now. They're not very reliable.

-Angela

You know what might be ideal? A high weight sensor (90lbs maybe) AND a switch! That way if someone less than 90 lbs was in the front and the driver forgot to turn the air bag off, then an annoying alarm would go off and the driver would remember to turn it off. My car has a seat belt alarm for the front seats that gets louder and more insistent and doesn't go off...why can't they do that?


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
We have those weight sensors on US cars now. They're not very reliable.

-Angela

Can I ask why and were the proof is for these sensors not being reliable.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Even 2 seater cars in the US don't have on/off switches.


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## Aka mommy (Feb 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Can I ask why and were the proof is for these sensors not being reliable.

No statistical proof, but i know in my old durango we had a weigh sensor in it and it would go off if only my purse was in the front seat, but would go on if my lunch box was on it. That couldn't have been more than a 2 lb difference. Doesn't seem very reliable.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Good questions. Simplest answer is that car seat safety sadly doesn't even make the top 100 list of priorities despite being the number one killer of children

- The ridiculous legal climate is one reason. Any company can be sued for anything regardless of circumstance. Most don't realize this is overall a big problem for car seat safety for kids. In US it's simply difficult for companies to talk much about how to keep kids safe in cars due to the legal issues. This means little progress is made in keeping kids safer in cars.

- The US government in general does treat parents like they were completely clueless regarding safety for their kids.

- US is 30 years behind in car seat safety and it's a very low priority. Just look at statements by large organisations regarding rear facing. I understand why parents turn kids FF at 12 months, the ridiculous statement make it appear RF is 1% safer and completely meaningless. Look at the statements regarding harnessing vs. boosters which parents are being bombarded with. Makes it appear harnessing is far safer for older kids which is not true.

Organisations are still saying rear vehicle seat is much safer. This is not true which has been proven by research, data and real life experiences a long time ago. People who know car seats know front seat is an excellent place for a child as long as airbag is deactivated. Doesn't matter if it's RF or FF. European cars have Isofix (our LATCH) in front seat which would never in a million years happen unless front seat was safe.

- I'm sure a sensor is very reliable. I don't really trust them since I don't have much experience with them.

- Not being able to turn off airbag in front seat is affecting safety for kids negatively even though most believe opposite.

- Complicated car seat approach. There are soooooo many choices regarding seats it's no wonder parents are confused. Make it simple. Infant seat, then RF seat until age 4 and then booster seat. Cheap, simple and effective.

It's an interesting discussion, only minor improvements in US will ever be made unless car seat safety become a priority.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Actually the U.S. is ahead in safety to most countries in the world. Here in France, the police told me two days ago, babies can legally ff at 6 months of age!

Children are also expected to go into booster seats once they hit 18 kilos (40lbs) There are no rfing options after this weight. The shoulder straps are often very low so the child has to move seats before 18 kilos are reached.

Here in Europe, they actually publish ads and advice saying specifically that once a child can sit up, they are physically ready to ff. I've seen this in France and England. "Just like Mummy and Daddy!" they spout.

What's annoying is that they wont sell higher weight limit rfing seats here in France and Germany, even the same company. Britax wouldn't even let me order from France or Germany! I would like to know the politics behind _that_, especially when children in Sweden are rfing through toddlerhood.

On the other topic, I like the alarm idea. Logically, I would think it would be better to have a high sensor. If someone were seated in the front who weighed more than (what is the recommendation?) perhaps 90lbs? (not sure) and the airbag were OFF, it would alarm to turn it ON. Otherwise, it turns itself off.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Some trucks *USED* to have a switch for air bags. But too many people turned them off, and then never turned them back on and people died because' they didn't have an airbag when they would have lived, if it'd only been turned on. So they moved away from straight on/off switches to sensors which turn off if theres not enough weight in the seat (usually ~40-60#s). My old truck from 96' had an on/off switch. Dad traded it in for a new toyota pickup (09 or 08 or 07, I honestly dont' remember which it is), and it has a sensor.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
Some trucks *USED* to have a switch for air bags. But too many people turned them off, and then never turned them back on and people died because' they didn't have an airbag when they would have lived, if it'd only been turned on. So they moved away from straight on/off switches to sensors which turn off if theres not enough weight in the seat (usually ~40-60#s). My old truck from 96' had an on/off switch. Dad traded it in for a new toyota pickup (09 or 08 or 07, I honestly dont' remember which it is), and it has a sensor.









My dad has a Toyota pickup with a switch from 2008, fwiw.


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## mamasthree (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:

_The ridiculous legal climate is one reason_
this. America is one of the most litigous countries in the world. It seems nothing is ever anyone's own fault, fault always belongs to someone else, and if they can make a buck over it, so be it. ugh.

FWIW, we purchased a seat for my husband's two seater...had to be installed by the dealer, it has a special buckle that when engaged turns off the airbag. It is a FF booster seat for older kids.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:

Actually the U.S. is ahead in safety to most countries in the world.
Maybe if you compare with Africa...... Joking aside, US is doing a horrible job with car seat safety. I would strongly disagree with being ahead of most countries. The 12 months/20 lbs rule has done huge damage to habits.

But most other countries are also sadly doing a terrible job keeping kids safe. I would personally expect a better effort from US since it's a great place with lots of fantastic resources. Many countries in Europe have terrible habits as well. Car seat safety in Europe gets worse the further south one travel.

The car seat markets are very political, it's like animals peeing to mark their territory. Same brands have completely different advice depending on country. The same brand might strongly advice RF until 4 in one country while saying FF at 9 months is a good idea in another country.

Most countries, including US, like to keep selling FF seats because it makes more money and is easier. This can clearly be seen in all kinds of statements about RF making it seem like a very minor and irrelevant safety benefit.

Once again, the legal climate is an large obstacle which is highly underrated and is causing lots of problems related to car seat safety. This is unlikely to change.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Why is Africa a joke? The pp did say "the world," not Europe.

It sounds as though you are saying that ff seats are cheaper to make, is that correct?


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

At least in the U.S., rear-facing seats can be FOUND. Here in Europe (with the limited exception of Scandinavia), you can't even PURCHASE a rfing seat for a child over 18kilos/40lbs.

Also, in the U.S., most of the children I see are at least in SOME kind of seat. It might not be rfing, it might be a small child in a booster but the attempt is made. Here in France, I often see children entirely unrestrained. I flash my headlights and hold my strap up if they're in front of me.

I didn't know those sensors already existed in the U.S. I doubt they have any here. I had trouble just finding a car with a tether hook here!

It's frustrating because in the industralized world, this is the leading killer of children and they have the resources to produce decent seats that could protect them better. Sweden can do it, why can't the rest of Europe and N. America?


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Adventuredad said:


> - The US government in general does treat parents like they were completely clueless regarding safety for their kids.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> There's a tendency (and I understand why) to pass laws based on the understanding of the lowest common denominator.
> ...


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Also, the government is under pressure by the manufacturers to only allow sales of US-approved seats.

I have to say that I'm not horrified by this. Yes, it keeps Swedish RF-to-55# seats off the market. It also keeps out Australian seats that allow FFing at 6 months.

And to be honest, seeing real-world misuse at checks (and these are the parents who care enough to come in!), RFing to 55# instead of 45# is just not at the top of my list of things I feel the need to fight for. JMnsHO, sorry.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Also, the government is under pressure by the manufacturers to only allow sales of US-approved seats.

I have to say that I'm not horrified by this. Yes, it keeps Swedish RF-to-55# seats off the market. It also keeps out Australian seats that allow FFing at 6 months.

And to be honest, seeing real-world misuse at checks (and these are the parents who care enough to come in!), RFing to 55# instead of 45# is just not at the top of my list of things I feel the need to fight for. JMnsHO, sorry.

I'm going to venture to guess that most 46-55 lb kids are old enough and tall enough to safely sit FF, so the population of kids who weigh 46-55 lbs that can't safely sit FF is probably quite small. Looking at averages, the average age of 46-55 lb kids is somewhere between 6-8 years old, an age where even most kids in Sweden are sitting in boosters.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Exactly, which is why although I understand the appeal, it's not high on my personal list of Child Passenger Safety priorities.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Could you imagine the confusion it would cause if the US suddenly started producing both cars and carseats that allowed RF in the front seat? Say, in 2011 every single vehicle had a keyed off switch, and we (by "we" I mean child passenger safety advocates, as well as the big groups like NHTSA, the NTSB, IIHS, etc) started allowing RF in the front seat. There would be a huge number of parents who think it's safe, and go put their kid in the front seat of their 2010 car, which does not have a keyed switch, get into a crash, and their kid dies. It would take a huge overhaul and major education, which just isn't going to happen.


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