# Does everyone "really" spank?



## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

An AP friend of mine said that everyone, even the most gentle mamas, has spanked in anger. It made me feel like I was being set up for failure (as I have an 8 month old and haven't experienced even the slightest desire or urge to spank). Is this really true (that all GD'ers have failed at one time or another and resorted to swats or spanking), or is this perhaps a situation of unresolved issues being projected onto everyone else?


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

My son is 5 and I have never raised my hand to him, swatted, spanked, hit, whatever you want to call it, him.

I have been very angry at times and have removed him and put him in his room or have removed my self from the situation but nothing has been so much that I needed to harm him physically.


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## Jasmyn's Mum (May 24, 2004)

Unresolved issues projected. Maybe your friend said that to make herself feel better. I've never spanked dd and I've been angry many times.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Well, I have swatted my kids-- I'm not proud of it, but I've done it. I'd never describe myself as "the most gentle mama", but I'm doing the best I can.

I guess I think parenting is a task where you get up everyday and do your best, and as much as I'd love to be perfect, we're all raised by mere mortals, and most of us are ok.

I do wonder why it is that grown-ups feel comfortable hitting children. Aside from the handful of times I've lost it and swatted my kids on the tush, I have not struck another person since I was a kid. I can't imagine hitting an adult. I recently heard a radio show that says apparently some of our most ingrained moral feelings are hard-wired into our brains and something we share with other apes. I have also heard that for some people the strong urge to hit and throw when angry is genetic. I don't have a strong urge to throw and hit when angry, though one of my kids does (got it from dh-- he resists the urge as an adult), and it's interesting to see how she reacts differently from her sister. I really wonder if I have something in me that resists hitting peers and babies, but not children.

These are things I think about to help myself remember I need keep control of my temper.

ZM


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

I think that if you have a good idea how to discipline without spanking, then you probably will not resort to spanking. For me, as with many, spanking was something I did because I knew no other way. It never felt right, just seemed to be the only option. You have a head start- you already know how to discipline without punishment. Now make a vow to yourself that you wil never spank, and make sure you have good ways of dealing with all possible situations, and you are setting yourself up for success.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

My ds is 4. I have never raised a hand to him. I have never been tempted to, even in the throes of serious anger and frustration. I suppose anything is possible, and that it COULD happen, but I can't imagine it. The thought of hitting my child literally makes me sick to my stomach. It just isn't an option for me and never has been.

I think your friend was trying to make herself feel better.

No judgment on mamas trying to work their way through this..
but no, not everyone has spanked in anger.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I have never been angry enough to not be able to control myself. I find it easier to be patient with my wild child than anyone else does. I actually wouldn't leave him with many people because he really would try the patience of a saint. Not that he isn't a great kid, but he still has trouble managing himself if he is tired, hungry, or unable to interact with someone.

I think your friend is just coming to the table with her own experiences and you should try not to let it bother you. No need to disagree with her, just say something about everyone striving to be the best parent that they can.


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## dukeswalker (Feb 1, 2003)

I have a 13 yo ds - never, not once have I ever raised my hand to him - I have a 5yo dd - twice I've wacked her on the tush - something I AM NOT proud of. I was pg both times I did it and at my wits end. She didn't even cry - but I sure did.....


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Just remember these words:
SPANKING IS NOT EFFECTIVE

The problem is that many people, even some GDers regard spanking as a more effective, but cruel alternative. That attitude is a sure route to failure. If you always have in your mind that there is this "tool" that will work then sooner or later you will use it. You might even end up resenting your child and/or parenting style because you are busting your butt trying not to use the "easy , more effective, but cruel" method of discipline meanwhile your child is never going to have "perfect" behavior.

Growing up my sister got fairly regular spankings because she was the "worst" behaved one (she was the strong-willed child). None of the rest us raised any static so none of us got any punnishment besides guilt trips and screaming. Every once in a while something would happen and mom or dad would blow up and seriously physically discipline someone besides my sister. It always took us by suprise, always scared us, and always made us extremly resentful, it NEVER had anything to do with discipline.


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## aja-belly (Oct 7, 2004)

i will not hit my children. i will not hit my husband. i will not hit my annoying neighbor.

i hate that there is a different word for hitting your child. can you imagine if someone said they spanked their wife for disobeying then rolled their eyes if you acted like they hit her?







:


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

I will admit to having spanked my children in frustration. It was never hard but it is something I am ashamed of. I am learning how to handle my emotions better and am getting better everyday. I grew up in a violent household. That doesn't excuse it but it explains why I don't always understand the best way to handle things and I'm very unsure of myself. You live what you know and when what you know isn't right, it's hard to learn what is. At least for me. I'm doing pretty great at this point IMO.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I have four children, my oldest is almost 14. I've never spanked or hit my kids and I never would. I don't claim to be a perfect parent though. We all make mistakes.

Quote:

It made me feel like I was being set up for failure (as I have an 8 month old and haven't experienced even the slightest desire or urge to spank).
Don't worry about it. People say this kind of stuff to make themselves feel better.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

No. There have been times when I've wanted to because I was going crazy, but I'm glad I didn't. I have yelled, though, which I'm not proud of.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I think hitting is a lot like yelling, some people (for whatever reasons) just have the impulse to do it. And if you are a yeller, it might be hard to understand that other people are just not inclined. Same if you are sometimes overwhelmed and spank, it may be hard to understand that there are other people who just don't even GET that impulse.


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Here's some actual data:

http://www.frameworksinstitute.org/p...mericameta.pdf

In case you don't want to read the whole thing, in national surveys, between 40-55% admitted to having spanked their kids depending on the survey; 68% said it was appropriate to spank kids as a regular form of punishment; 37% of college-educated parents said it was never appropriate to spank a child; 25% of parents with a high school education said the same thing.

So, not everyone spanks, but the majority do.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

I have never hit, grabbed, yanked an arm, nothing. We are not physical in our home


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Nope, not true. I have never spanked or otherwise hit either of my kids. And I have been steaming angry. I have grabbed ds1 a little too hard a few times, however, which I'm sure some could argue is no different than hitting - it was a physical act done out of anger that hurt him. I think he was 4yo at the time.

I have been so angry that I can totally understand how someone resorts to spanking. I don't agree with it and I've never done it, but I can understand it, and hold no judgement against parents who have faltered. But I don't understand spanking as a regular form of discipline.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I have been that angry, but- hit a wall, send kid to room, hit the table - these are all a better alternative. I'd much rather cause myself pain from hitting something hard than hurt my kids.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I have never hit my dd. I have yelled







: but never hit.

-Angela


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

I have never hit dd either. I have yelled though and sometimes I go out of the room and tell my husband that I want to throw her out of the window







but I've never spanked her and I don't believe I ever will.


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## EmmaJean (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm pretty proud of myself that I haven't hit my kids. I've been SOOOOO tempted to, and it's been a real battle in my mind sometimes. When my first child was an infant and we decided hitting wasn't going to be a part of our family, I promised him and myself, out loud, many times, and it is still a mantra, that I will. not. hit. Now there's other parts of my parenting and personality I DON"T LIKE and try to change, but at least I'm not doing that AND hitting.

I've really really been struggling the past few weeks b/c dd is not staying in bed. And it's like, well, maybe if I started spanking her she'd stay. It's so tempting to think there's a quick fix out there. But it really isn't. Ugh, parenting is hard..... And I so wish physical punishment weren't the norm. Very frustrating.


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## Zonie (Nov 8, 2006)

I have never spanked. I have never been that angry at my own kids.

I have been VERY angry at the kids I work with. I mean shaking mad. But, I never even had the urge to lay a hand on them. So, I don't truly understand the urge to hit.

My daughters were SOOOOOO easy. They were both happy, calm, girls, who liked each other, and rarely gave me any grief. My neices and nephews are also like this. But, my best friend's daughter has given her fits since she was born. So, I think how angry we get at our kids depends on what their temperments were/are.

I can look at a Father who is clearly VERY mad, and I don't judge. I just give my kids a hug and thank Heaven they made parenting so easy for me. Because we don't all get these kids.

Not all parents are equipped with the same tools. Some parents hit because they truly do not know any better. They were hit, they hit their kids.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I think that is a really strange thing for your friend to claim.

To claim that EVERYONE has or will spank in anger, is assuming that everyone grew up with the conditioning that parents need to MAKE kids be good.

Dp has never spanked ds, and I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that he never will. He just doesn't even get how anyone could, or why anyone would. It makes no sense to him at all. It's not even a reaction that crosses his mind, ever. And he spends a good amount of time with ds, so its not like he never has to deal with difficult situations, or his own anger.
I have spanked once, unfortunately. I grew up in an area where it was ok, even the right thing to do, to spank in certain situations (dangerous situations, hurting others, etc). But even so, I don't feel like I failed, I feel like I screwed up, and I have to learn from it and do better.

What was your friend trying to get at? That you're going to spank at least once, so you may as well use spanking as a parenting tool? Or was she feeling a little defensive because she screwed up and spanked, so she's trying to convey to you that nobody's perfect?


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Well, my guy is 2.5 (almost) and I have yet to swat or spank. I've been ANGRY enough to have the URGE, but I quickly try to see, in my mind, his face afterwards, and that's enough to stop me.

I really doubt I'll do anything like that. I'm lucky enough to have some anger management counseling under my belt, so I have tools to control my anger right there in the moment. I might suggest something similar to your friend...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I hit ds1 a couple of times when he was younger. Those were really awful times, though...there's nothing about my life at that point that I even want to remember, except for ds1 (not the hitting him part). He also got yelled at too much.

I hit dd once, too...not even exactly in anger. She pulled ds2's hair when he was nursing, and he started to just _scream_, and my hand flashed out before I realized I was hitting. I pulled it, but not soon enough. I felt awful, but not exactly guilty. That's one instance where I absolutely _would_ hit another adult, too - if somebody walked up and just hurt my baby like that.

I don't think it's true that _every_ GD mom will hit their child. But, I'm not sure it's exactly unresolved issues, either. She may have just been making the point that sometimes people do lash out from frustration or whatever, even if that's not something they ever saw themselves doing.

Somebody posted about the desire to hit and/or throw things being genetic. I think that's probably true. DD has been very aggressive from day one. DS1 and ds2 just aren't the same way at all. DS2 is 15 months, and I haven't seen him hit at anything even once. He occasionally throws something, but it's in a very playful way, not an aggressive way. We're going to have to work with dd a lot to make her understand that people don't like being hit, whereas ds2 never even tries to do so.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Ds is 10, and I've never spanked or hit him. When he was two, there were a couple of times he tried to kick me and I "blocked" his leg with my hand before it struck me....it shocked me both times and I wondered if I had "hit" him...but I'd say definitely not, it was a self defense thing, and nothing that upset either of us.

So, no, I don't think all parents are doomed to spank. However it *is* true that most American parents spank at least once. Realistically, it is good to think about why that might be, and prepare yourself for situations that may challenge you on the issue. I don't think good intentions are enough...the reality of parenting is such that "never spanking" may be an ongoing conscious effort.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

No, that's nonsense. I'm no saint and I have never spanked.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I haven't spanked.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

I can't say for everyone, but yes, I have my moments, ds is very high needs and spirited, and after hours of dealing with the same thing, and the same peircing scream in my ear when I remove him from the naughty activity, I spank in anger. I always feel guilty, but yes, I have spanked. I'm trying to find better ways to deal with it, but its hard........and IMO one spank is much better than some of the thoughts that go through my head at high stress times, (eg shaking him to see if he will stop screaming) which of course are neverf acted on.

I was also raised being spanked, so its a natural knee jerk reaction that I'm trying to change.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I think hitting is a lot like yelling, some people (for whatever reasons) just have the impulse to do it. And if you are a yeller, it might be hard to understand that other people are just not inclined. Same if you are sometimes overwhelmed and spank, it may be hard to understand that there are other people who just don't even GET that impulse.

ITA..I have both impluses, so I am working uphill in a constant battle.....then I got the added bonus of a high needs spirited child, whos in the screamer stage.....after years of me growing up see "those" kids and saying "i will never have one of THOSE kids".

I have learned to control my anger alot though, so one spank is an improvement over me leaving him alone, throwing things, cutting myself etc.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

If you consider playing drums on her tush when she's goofing off....









Aside from the drum playing, I did ONCE and it was last night.







: She's taken to squirming during diaper changes. She'll lay on the bed and seem all cooperative and then when you sit down and start to get the wipes and diaper ready she either runs off, or squeezes her legs together so hard you need a crowbar (which is good in future situations but not a dipe change.







) She was being the worst behaved I think I have ever seen her yesterday and that was just when I lost my willpower. It was one swat and then I realized what I did. Started bawling (while she sat there in stunned silence) and I hugged her and apologized I don't know how many times. I told her how wrong it was and that I should never have done that. That NO ONE should ever do that. She ended up giving me a kiss and I felt a little forgiven. But it doesn't make my actions right. It upsets me horribly that I did that. I grew up in an abusive household and while I was preggo with DD I was coming to my brothers rescue (he was 3 at the time) so many times when they would spank him or what not. I vowed that I would never spank. And the words that rang through my ears when I realized what I had done... "When your child gets older you'll understand" -shudder- Yeah, I understand it's wrong. And did back then when I was trying to protect my brother to the best of my abilities.

Anyways, sorry for my rant.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose* 
If you consider playing drums on her tush when she's goofing off....









heh, I'm not the only one!


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## Delta (Oct 22, 2002)

Never. Never had the urge or impulse either. I have yelled though.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
heh, I'm not the only one!

let's get the bongo's out now shall we?







(you know one bum cheek + one bum cheek = bongos...







)


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose* 
let's get the bongo's out now shall we?







(you know one bum cheek + one bum cheek = bongos...







)

you know the coke zero ad? where the old guy says jabooty.....after that we started telling ds we were gonna get jabooty, and we spank it playfully......its so cute, cause he will pat us back


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

See now, I actually AM a perfect parent, AND a saint







, and I have swatted in reaction to my son biting me or my dd kicking my ds. Out of total frustration, tiredness, end-of-my-ropedness, call it what you will, but I am totally anti-spanking and wasn't spanked as a child. As a discipline method, spanking is not only ineffective, but ridiculous, and sends all the wrong messages.

I don't make excuses for my past behavior, and I have always apologized when it has happened (thankfully not many times) but it's like a flash reaction with no thought process behind it, so the only real way to avoid it is to not let things escalate to that point of frustration, which I try to do, but even perfect parents make mistakes







: . Basically, I need to make sure I get enough sleep, that my kids get enough sleep, and that we're all snacked and hugged adequately throughout the day. The kids are not often violent with each other or with me, but we have had our moments







:

When I only had my one, darling first baby, I couldn't imagine EVER being angry enough or frustrated enough to react that way, but then I had another child, and in the last 7 years, it has happened 3 or 4 times -- multiple kids sometimes have a way of driving you insane twice as quickly







. Not good, but also not the end of the world. I have a lot more empathy for what drives people to lash out at their kids, which might be what the OP's friend was looking for with her statement. What is more crazy to me is the very rational spanking camp -- the "wait till your father gets home" camp, who premeditatedly spank and think it is a good thing.

So, in a nutshell, it's not my usual reaction, but yes, I've had a few awful moments where before I knew what had happened I had swatted at one of my kids.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
you know the coke zero ad? where the old guy says jabooty.....after that we started telling ds we were gonna get jabooty, and we spank it playfully......its so cute, cause he will pat us back

















YEAH!! We do that too. DD will come up behind us randomly and "spank" us as she laughing and saying "Da-Die appy Ma-ma appy" (Daddy happy mommy happy)








kids are so cute.


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

No, not everyone spanks. I don't know anyone who does.

But everybody does mess up, and do things in anger they never would mean to otherwise. We all just have different places we go. I don't think you would have encountered this at 8 months, but probably somewhere down the line.

I rarely agree with the line of thinking that goes "She says something I didn't like; she must be defensive," but in this case I think it's right on. She spanked and wished she hadn't, so she's rationalizing to herself that it was inevitable.


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## naturalmame (Feb 9, 2003)

Funny this comes up the morning after "I blew it". My ds is 5 1/2, he is a BIG child, always has been, he is 4 foot 2 and weighs 87 pounds not fat, just solid and when he is tired, or had a sugary treat that his dad gave him he has a hard time controlling himself. Last night he and dd were "playing" with a jump rope and it was making its way around necks! So I tried to gently say jump ropes are for outside and take it away well they began a pulling match and I against my ds escalated him, I got the rope and then he hit me hard, and pinched me (this is new). I told him to stop and he would not so I asked him to go take 5 as we call it and sit on the couch, he would not running all over being out of control so I told him if he could not take 5 we would need to go upstairs for night night (Knowing he was tired already!) well.... I virtually had to drag him up the stairs, he used his feet on each stair to try to lunge me off and at the almost top he pushed off so hard with this feet I almost flew back words off the stairs with him! I was scared and out of that I blew it, I yelled at him that he could have hurt us badly and slapped him on the tush,... yes I spanked him and have not done so in years when I met up with GD. I really feel like I do not know what I could have done differently (except the spank). He is the most sensitive wonderful child unless he is tired or had some sugar. I am a single mom so I do not have a man to escort his adult size body to bed or anywhere for that matter when he is out of control and he does need that because he cannot get control! I feel awful and yes I did spank, it was not right and I am still searching what to do differently becuase this does happen every once in awhile, he hates going to bed despite time warnings, reward charts etc. but I know he is over tired and if I do not step in to get him to bed we all pay. kwim so it is not a matter of him deciding when he is tired. AND bed is not a bad thing, I nursed him up until like 3 months ago when he began to wean and I now lye with him and snuggle him to sleep!!! Anyways life happens and I blew it and I have so much admiration for you mamas who never have!!!


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

I've never hit my daughter. I have adopted a sharp tone a few times, though.

My parents never hit me, either.


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## isabel rose (May 9, 2005)

I whacked my friend's 24moDS once, of the 3 of us I was most upset about it - he was lying with his head on my lap & turned and BIT my inner thigh through my jeans(it BLED), my hand just came down reflexively on his bum. luckily he wore cloth nappies & didn't even feel it & my friend just laughed at my dismay & said "natural consequences!" But I don't think EVERYONE _will_ hit their child, it depends on the people, the situation they're in & how happy they are at the time, and if you set out *not* to spank & are sure of your reasoning you're a lot less likely to do it.


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## Zonie (Nov 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isabel rose* 
I whacked my friend's 24moDS once, of the 3 of us I was most upset about it -

OK!!! I HAVE A CONFESSION!!!!!!!!! I have never repeated this story to ANYONE.

I was watching an eight year old boy, (in the early 80s) and he was riding his baike around the neighborhood. I lived on a very busy street, and I was fixing my side gate, when I saw him go by me. He would go by me, then go back again.

Once, though, he didn't come back by and I heard the unmistakable sound of brakes, then thumps. I looked around the fence, and sure enough, Jason had been hit by a car.

Instead of "Are you OK?" or even "Oh My GOD". I slapped him. I actually slapped an eight year old boy in the face for getting hit by a car. I have no idea why either.

Several months later, I had another kid at my house, and there was a very old tree fort in the yard from the previous owner. He fell out of the tree fort and onto the ground, and again, I ran over to HIT HIM. I didn't, because the absurdity of hitting an injured child actually reached my brain before I reached him. But, when I get scared, I turn into an unreasonable monster.

Except for slapping Jason, I have never hit another child again. I still feel bad about that. I should look that kid up and tell him I'm sorry for knocking him around.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I've never hit dd, nor even come close. I've never even yelled at her, although her dad has on a couple of occasions.

She is so sensitive to any disapproval from me that showing my disappointment is usually the worst punishment I can muster. She'll dissolve into tears just because she thinks I'm unhappy with her, which makes me feel like a total jerk.


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## FreeSpiritMama (Oct 22, 2003)

Not true







I have never spanked or swatted my children. I was spanked as a child


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Nope. Never have. Never will.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

I have never hit my son, and can't remember a time when I've been tempted. In extreme anger and frustration I have yelled at him however and I sometimes wonder if the expletives that come out of my mouth when I'm really upset aren't just as damaging, or worse.

In any case, it's important to remember that GD starts with us. We must be able to forgive ourselves first, and this has been much more difficult then I would have imagined. However, I want to set this model for my son... of taking responsibility, processing the emotions and then moving on. Forgiving oneself. The more I hang onto my guilt, the longer it takes for this healing process to emerge. It's still really hard though. I am the guilt queen!









We're human and parenting is hard. Being a kid is hard. We all screw up. Things happen. And when they do, I remind myself that I'm human and that it's me, not DS. Usually, when things like this happen it's because I haven't been taking proper mental care of myself and I take time to do so. Do whatever I can get some time and regroup. When I'm ready to reeneter, the focus is on him. We play. He takes the lead. I allow him to play through all upsets and traumas and this has been the most healing time of all. So important. No matter how bad things get, there is always healing if our attachment remains the priority. I used to manage an office and took to telling my staff that it's not the problems so much, but how we deal with them that is important. I no longer hold that position but in parenting, I've been reminded of this advice more times than in any other in my life. And am so thankful for it.

Indeed, GD starts with us... GDing ourselves is the first step in being able to effectively GD our children. But why is it so hard some days!? *sigh*

The best,
Em


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## sparklemama (Oct 16, 2003)

I can get a real bad temper but I have never hit/spanked/swatted my children. I have been physical with objects (yes I have thrown small things - but not at people - just to get the frustration out), but never acted physically toward people in anger. I don't feel it's right for us. But I don't even have the urge, I am assuming because I was never spanked and really never witnessed it as a child with friends/family. It's just not something that people I know DID. If I had been raised in a home that spanked, I can't say that I would have all the restraint when really angry to not spank. I can't judge people who do either. Obviously I think it's best to not spank in any situation, but I can certainly understand how it would be hard for some people, especially when pushed to the brink.


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## Lazyhead (Mar 27, 2006)

No. Never. And I'm a hothead.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
But, I'm not sure it's exactly unresolved issues, either. She may have just been making the point that sometimes people do lash out from frustration or whatever, even if that's not something they ever saw themselves doing.

I'm not entirely sure if you're referring to my mention of anger management counseling, but just in case you are, that sort of counseling doesn't necessarily get DEEP into the "why" of it. Rather, it can just give you a nice "toolbox" of things to do to calm yourself down QUICKLY.

I could have (and did) told my counselor every single reason I have a temper, but what was important right then and there, was how to CALM myself, since I was becoming incapable of doing so (this is YEARS ago, long before I met DH or had DS). And it's helped immensely in raising DS.


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## marieandchris (Jun 6, 2005)

Never, not once...

Marie


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Nope, I have never hit a child and I can honestly say that I have never come close to hittting a child. I am also unable/unwilling to hit animals. I think it is something people give themselves permission to do on some level. I would no more hit a child than I would hit my spouse (and believe me, I've been equally angry and frustrated with both!).

I also suspect that it is easier for people who have never been struck (like me) to refrain from striking others. The thought of it is so abhorrent to me that I just can't see myself ever doing it. This is why I have such tremendous admiration for people who were hit as children and who are able to refrain from doing so themselves, and for people who used to hit but have consciously decided to stop and who have done so. To me, those people are breaking a cycle of violence and are nothing short of heroic in my eyes.

So to answer the OP, no -- not everyone hits children.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

I come from a long line of hitters. Both in the spanking and beating the crap out of kids lines of thought.

I have never ever hit my kids.

Spanking just aint in my toolbox.

When I get really angry, I cannot help but see myself in thier eyes. And I remember what it felt like to have the person who cared for me to be so angry.

I have yelled. Never demeaning never namecalling but dang it, sometimes I just need to be loud in my anger.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose* 
let's get the bongo's out now shall we?







(you know one bum cheek + one bum cheek = bongos...







)

My kids call it Playing The Bumgos.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis* 
I'm not entirely sure if you're referring to my mention of anger management counseling, but just in case you are, that sort of counseling doesn't necessarily get DEEP into the "why" of it. Rather, it can just give you a nice "toolbox" of things to do to calm yourself down QUICKLY.

I could have (and did) told my counselor every single reason I have a temper, but what was important right then and there, was how to CALM myself, since I was becoming incapable of doing so (this is YEARS ago, long before I met DH or had DS). And it's helped immensely in raising DS.

No - I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the original question about whether this was true or unresolved issues on the part of the OP's friend. I don't think that it's either. I don't think _everybody_ will spank, but I also don't think that the belief that this is the case indicates any underlying issues. I suspect that the OP's friend either spanked after thinking she wouldn't, knows people who spanked after thinking they wouldn't, or both.

For myself, I learned ways to calm myself a long time ago - after coming close to killing a boy in high school. The one time I hit dd, I didn't have any chance whatsoever to use any of those techniques. DS2 screamed _and_ bit my nipple, and my hand came up before I even realized I was hitting her. I did in fact pull it...but not before I made contact with her arm.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

I have a very hard time being totally GD.

I'm really amazed that some of you can get through it without spanking, or yelling, etc., but I imagine that your circumstances are way different than mine.

I think it's easy to judge people who hit, or have hit their kids.

I'm not at all proud of it. I am young (21 when my first was born, another baby 19 months later, both unplanned pregnancies) I have moved about 10 times since the first was born. I have no income net. I'm living alone right now, but will be living with my DP again soon, so that he can take care of the kids more (lives far away now) I moved to an area where I don't know anyone. My dad was a hothead. I was spanked. I think I wasn't able to "grow up" before I had kids. I'm just a kid too, still.

I think if I had planned my pregnancies, grew up, and had stability in my life (partner, $, home...) I would be a total GD-nut, like you all are.

maybe I'll be where you are one day.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
I'm really amazed that some of you can get through it without spanking, or yelling, etc., but I imagine that your circumstances are way different than mine.

I think it's easy to judge people who hit, or have hit their kids.

I think if I had planned my pregnancies, grew up, and had stability in my life (partner, $, home...) I would be a total GD-nut, like you all are.

maybe I'll be where you are one day.









I hope you don't feel judged here. I think those of us answering that we've not hit are just eager to dispel the theory that _every_ parent hits - openly or in secret. It's just not true.

I was one of four children raised by a single father, and he never hit either. Never. My dad was raised in a home with lots of brutality. As a child, my dad witnessed and experienced horrible violence and once saw his father kill a man.

To his dying day he continued to have screaming nightmares about his childhood. He vowed from the beginning that his children would never have to deal with that kind of emotional trauma, and he stuck to it. He did a lot of things wrong or didn't do things he ought have done, but he never, never hit.

I honestly don't think a parent who loses her cool and swats her child's behind is causing any severe trauma. I think it does derail the balance of respect and gentleness that we strive for, and so undermines some of our best efforts at childrearing. So we try not to do it.

But you're completely correct about the effects of life's stressors on our ability to cope and to work toward our goals. When dh or I are stressed and tired, we have each other to come take dd and relieve the other. And as a couple, we are less likely to experience financial stress or issues about unmet obligations. That can be a major difference.

I think if you posted here that you spanked and you believed in it and intended to continue, you'd surely be judged. But not when you acknowlege that GD and parenting is a struggle, and that you're doing the best you can.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
I have a very hard time being totally GD.

I'm really amazed that some of you can get through it without spanking, or yelling, etc., but I imagine that your circumstances are way different than mine.

I think it's easy to judge people who hit, or have hit their kids.

I'm not at all proud of it. I am young (21 when my first was born, another baby 19 months later, both unplanned pregnancies) I have moved about 10 times since the first was born. I have no income net. I'm living alone right now, but will be living with my DP again soon, so that he can take care of the kids more (lives far away now) I moved to an area where I don't know anyone. My dad was a hothead. I was spanked. I think I wasn't able to "grow up" before I had kids. I'm just a kid too, still.

I think if I had planned my pregnancies, grew up, and had stability in my life (partner, $, home...) I would be a total GD-nut, like you all are.

maybe I'll be where you are one day.

excuse me but i was 21 when my first was born, totally traumatic unplanned pregnancy, i moved around alot, lived with his mom then my mom, dp didnt commit to our family til sandrel was 7 months old. my dad abused my mom and my mom took it all out on me. not spaking, all out true abuse.
never really planned pregnancies(second was welcomed but not planned), i dont have a stable relationship with my dp, were in poverty and renting from a slumlord. and im a total GD-nut.

please dont buy into the 'young/poor mothers arent as good' rhetoric.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
My kids call it Playing The Bumgos.









DS loves to come up behind me and "play the butt bongos" while I'm cooking or washing dishes.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Just because I have never spanked doesn't mean I judge those who have if they are trying to do better.

I have yelled a couple times.


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## EmmaJean (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

But you're completely correct about the effects of life's stressors on our ability to cope and to work toward our goals. When dh or I are stressed and tired, we have each other to come take dd and relieve the other. And as a couple, we are less likely to experience financial stress or issues about unmet obligations. That can be a major difference
So true.... Last week when I was having a really hard night with getting Lily to sleep and Erik wasn't home, I thought "What am I going to do/how am I going to cope when Erik is deployed and I have to do it ALL by myself EVERY night?!" This thought happened when I had just yelled at her to stay in bed, she cried, and then got back out a minute later! Yelling doesn't "work" either, so why do I do it??? Anyway, I don't know what I'm going to do w/ all the stress and no one there to take turns with when I'm by myself every night. So I'm just saying that I have a lot of respect of single moms......







You are doing your best and that's all anyone can ask.


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## jazzharmony (Nov 10, 2006)

Does eveyone really spank?

NO. I have been parenting for almost 6yrs now and have never laid a hand on either of my children in anger.

That does not mean I have endless patience it just means hitting has never been something I had considered or thought about. Just never on my radar.








to those who are struggling.


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## Hippiemommie (Jul 3, 2005)

Nope never spanked my kid. He is almost 2 and I never will either. Not everyone spanks but I'm sure she thinks that to feel better about herself.


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## Hippiemommie (Jul 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
I have a very hard time being totally GD.

I'm really amazed that some of you can get through it without spanking, or yelling, etc., but I imagine that your circumstances are way different than mine.

I think it's easy to judge people who hit, or have hit their kids.

I'm not at all proud of it. I am young (21 when my first was born, another baby 19 months later, both unplanned pregnancies) I have moved about 10 times since the first was born. I have no income net. I'm living alone right now, but will be living with my DP again soon, so that he can take care of the kids more (lives far away now) I moved to an area where I don't know anyone. My dad was a hothead. I was spanked. I think I wasn't able to "grow up" before I had kids. I'm just a kid too, still.

I think if I had planned my pregnancies, grew up, and had stability in my life (partner, $, home...) I would be a total GD-nut, like you all are.

maybe I'll be where you are one day.

This rubs me wrong too. My bestfriend lived in a cemetary and a shelter (when there was room) through her prengancy when she was 18. She even got disowned by her family and grew up in a VERY abusive home. She never hit her child. She was GD and didn't/doesn't know it. I don't think there is any excuse for hitting someone who can't defend themselves. Partners or stabitlity isn't going to make GD easier for you. You can only change yourself, within yourself. Those things are external.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Circumstances can certainly explain -- but never justify -- family violence. Like domestic violence between adults, hitting children tends to be passed down from generation to generation. And life stressors certainly do cause people to do many harmful things to one another.

This is one of the reasons why I would personally vote to ban child-hitting in one hot second. Then that "permission" that some of us give ourselves would be legally withdrawn. I'm sure violence against children, like violence against adults, would still occur. But I do think it would happen less frequently and that people who were struggling with it could get the help they need to stop.

I am not judging those who find themselves embroiled in this cycle. I honestly can't even relate to the impulse to strike a child but that does not mean I don't have my own parenting baggage that I struggle with. The only people I have a real problem with are people who know better but continue to rationalize violence against children. People who acknowledge that it is wrong and are working to stop get







from me!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I don't think it's fair or meaningful to compare people's responses to stress or life situations. Some people could endure the worst situations imaginable and never feel an urge to hit. Others deal with those urges at even mild provocations.

It's a little like a nonsmoker being judgemental over a tobacco addicts attempts to stop smoking, or a naturally slender person being critical of those who struggle with overeating.

If majazama finds that life stresses make her feel more compelled to strike her children, then that is her reality and that is what she must struggle with. I think she's just looking inward at what she feels have contributed to her own propensity to hit (youth, instability, single parenting, her own exposures to violence), not really excusing herself over it. And I see in her a little bit of wistful envy over those who _haven't_ had to deal with these constellation of issues. That's pretty understandable.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I don't think it's fair or meaningful to compare people's responses to stress or life situations. Some people could endure the worst situations imaginable and never feel an urge to hit. Others deal with those urges at even mild provocations.

It's a little like a nonsmoker being judgemental over a tobacco addicts attempts to stop smoking, or a naturally slender person being critical of those who struggle with overeating.

If majazama finds that life stresses make her feel more compelled to strike her children, then that is her reality and that is what she must struggle with. I think she's just looking inward at what she feels have contributed to her own propensity to hit (youth, instability, single parenting, her own exposures to violence), not really excusing herself over it. And I see in her a little bit of wistful envy over those who _haven't_ had to deal with these constellation of issues. That's pretty understandable.

thank-you.

Exactly what I was going to say.

I was just answering the question. I guess I put myself up for the critisism. I'm a NFL parent, and I have spanked, though I try not to.

The condescending posts aren't very helpful, you know.









Whenever i do, I always tell my DD that I'm sorry afterwards, and that I shouldn't hit her. She's such a sweetheart too, and I feel terrible afterwards. I know that once they reach a certain age, I will not feel like I have to discilpine them in that way. I'm soooo looking forward to that day, when we can talk about things, and get through it that way. My DD is really quite slow on the development area, so it's like shes 2-3 most of the time (acts like her little sister)

My life stresses affect me differently than they would someone else. Some people who live in a cemetary while pregnant at 18 can live peacefully with their children after they are born. that is awesome! and I bet that lineage will live on, meaning all her grandchildren will be peaceful to their kids.

I heard once that some people can be traumatized over nothing, really, and others can never be traumatized. Like someone who as a child walked all the way across Europe alone, after getting out of Aushwitz, and they turn out fine. But me, I've had an ok childhood, though I had numerous things happen to me via 'friends' and teachers that I believe severely traumatized me ( i don't want to elaborate). as well as seeing my dad blow up all the time (he never hit us, but would throw things, and make alot of noise. as I kid, me and my brother would roll our eyes at each other. that must affect me too, even though I thought it didn't then, genetically, or just conditioning, cause I'm a lot like my dad)

I really hope that my girls will grow up and never have the urge to swat their kids. I don't think they will. They understand it's wrong, because every time it happens, I apologize.

thanks for the support, everyone who sent it. I will try my very best from now on (what I tell myself daily)


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hippiemommie* 
. You can only change yourself, within yourself.


What about if you never get a break from your kids??? And these days, they don't like to let me have any alone time at night either, and they stay up til 2 am with me?







: that's when I have nil patience.

I know I need to work on myself, but I, personally, need to have alone time to do that. I really want to do Vipassana (meditation for 10 days straight), and have wanted to do that since I was pregnant with my first DD, but I'm a dedicated ap mama, and I don't want to leave my two YO nursling till shes ready for that. I also plan to do cleansing, to hopefully get rid of past things stored in my body, but again, I have a 2 YO nursling.

I'm hoping that next spring, I will be able to do those things that I believe will help me to be a better person.


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## Pattyla (Apr 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swirly* 
An AP friend of mine said that everyone, even the most gentle mamas, has spanked in anger. It made me feel like I was being set up for failure (as I have an 8 month old and haven't experienced even the slightest desire or urge to spank). Is this really true (that all GD'ers have failed at one time or another and resorted to swats or spanking), or is this perhaps a situation of unresolved issues being projected onto everyone else?

I haven't ever hit my dd. When she was your dd's age I never had the urge to spank either. It came just a few months later. I still get it on occasion, when we are dealing with a particularly frustrating situation and nothing I'm trying seems to resolve it usually. (sometimes just when she is pushing my buttons) but I haven't ever given in to it. I don't really think I ever will at this point either.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

once when my dd1 hit dd 2 i swatted her diapered bum







i didnt even think about it, it was almost like a reflex, but i dont think dd even notice (thank god), she was busy laughing and dd2 was crying, i felt terrible and never did it again, and never will!


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Three years old next week, and I've never raised a hand.....I haven't really felt the need, although she can be a very exasperating kid. I have yelled more than I like, but I'm working on it. I know quite a few people who have never hit their kids......It's sort of like in any relationship. Most of us go through our whole lives and never hit our partners, never even think about it. It's not that outlandish.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67* 
It's sort of like in any relationship. Most of us go through our whole lives and never hit our partners, never even think about it. It's not that outlandish.

So true. It really comes down to what we find acceptable on some level. DH was raised being hit and, although he has never hit our kids, he does struggle not to be physical (pulling DS into his room, grabbing him, etc.) when he is angry.

Once, when we discussed this he explained that "he just gets so angry he can't not do it." I asked him if he has ever been that angry with me. He said yes. Then I asked if he has ever considered putting his hands on me. He was totally appalled and said "no, of course I never would do that." So I asked him why it was that he gave himself permission to indulge his anger at our kids' expense but not mine. It was very thought-provoking.

He basically came to the conclusion that, having grown up seeing kids violated like that, but never adults, he internalized on some level that violence against kids is more acceptable. He rejects this internalized message but boy is it a powerful one! And he, like so many parents, has to really work hard to remind himself that it is no more acceptable to hit young people than it is to hit older people.


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## momaste (Oct 9, 2006)

I've never hit DS (13 mo) and have never been angry enough to do so. He's little, he's exploring, and he's figuring out boundaries. I have held him down firmly but gently to try to change his diaper when he's clearly not having any of it, and he's a wiggler. I'm not sure that "counts" - I'm not angry or punishing, just trying to get the job done, but he HATES that I'm restraining him.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

to the op, do you really think all the mamas who happen to see this thread (wheather they spank(ed) or not) would respond to your thread? I think you are only getting responses from the women who don't spank, and the people who have, don't want to risk getting judged. You'd probably get a better truthful crosssection, if you did an annonymos poll. just a thought.







:


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
to the op, do you really think all the mamas who happen to see this thread (wheather they spank(ed) or not) would respond to your thread? I think you are only getting responses from the women who don't spank, and the people who have, don't want to risk getting judged. You'd probably get a better truthful crosssection, if you did an annonymos poll. just a thought.







:

i have spanked, and i replyed, so did some other mamas


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I normally don't give advice, so take this FWIW---and I mean this in kindness, not judgement. We're each in different circumstances, and yet, we share a common belief--that no matter what---there is _never_ an excuse or reason for physical punishment.

Quote:

Whenever i do, I always tell my DD that I'm sorry afterwards, and that I shouldn't hit her. She's such a sweetheart too, and I feel terrible afterwards. *I know that once they reach a certain age, I will not feel like I have to discilpine them in that way*. I'm soooo looking forward to that day, when we can talk about things, and get through it that way. My DD is really quite slow on the development area, so it's like shes 2-3 most of the time (acts like her little sister)
But you don't have to spank them now, either







Really. Take it out of your toolbox. It doesn't exist anymore---even as a last resort. Your challenge will be choosing how you will act _instead_. You can either help them through the tough times or you can literally hurt them. It's up to you. You are the only one with the power to choose your actions and reactions. They don't get that choice. You're the mommy. You _can_ get through tough times, right now, without resorting to physical violence, I have all the confidence in the world in your ability! You are not a victim of your circumstances









For many parents, the day doesn't arrive when suddenly they just magically stop spanking b/c the dc have reached a certain milestone. It becomes a habit, ingrained and the children have learned to expect it









I have a very close friend whose father never stopped spanking him and as he grew, his father simply moved on to _punching_







. Fortunately, my friend chooses to parent his children differently. He has surrounded himself w/like-minded people, read a ton and made the conscious decision not to perpetuate the violence---and then learned _what he can do instead_ if he feels the urge to resort to violence.

Quote:

as well as seeing my dad blow up all the time (he never hit us, but would throw things, and make alot of noise. as I kid, me and my brother would roll our eyes at each other. that must affect me too, even though I thought it didn't then, genetically, or just conditioning, cause I'm a lot like my dad)
But you are _not_ your dad. You are a totally separate human being who has choices. No one makes us feel or do anything. It doesn't matter if your father was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr---you are still the one who is making the decisions regarding your actions. In each moment we choose how we react to what life brings our way. IME, what's really important is to find out ways to prevent yourself from feeling out of control/stressed out/etc. since you'd mentioned you believe you don't handle this well...._many_ of us don't, and we're not GD-nuts







: just people who want better for our own children than many of us had growing up









Consider rethinking the image you have of yourself. Instead of saying, "well, I'm stressed out, that's why..." You might think, "Yes, I am feeling stressed, but I can usually do x, y or z and relieve my tension. There are no "bad" emotions. They just are. You are strong and capable...Learn your triggers. You can ask yourself what am I needing? Some mommy time to allow a recharge? Some physical outlet? Quiet? Emotional support? Then take whatever it takes to get those needs met. Waking up an hour earlier, meditating/praying/reading/journaling, etc, etc. Exchanging childcare with another mother...whatever. I think you said you didn't know anyone? Maybe taking walks or going to parks (or whatever opportunities there are in your community to meet other like-minded folks). Reach out. I'm willing to bet there are dozens of mamas here who would be willing to be on-call when you needed some support and an ear to listen









If you have creative skills, you could try and nurture those in ways that are child-friendly







Sing. Play. It doesn't have to be a ten day retreat! Do stuff for you, as much as you can. Put the little ones in the bath and sit next to them and read something you'd never normally have time to read







Whatever it is that speaks to your heart. Stretch yourself---go beyond what you think you're capable of---I bet you will surprise yourself!

Quote:

I really hope that my girls will grow up and never have the urge to swat their kids. I don't think they will. They understand it's wrong, because every time it happens, I apologize.
But why would you think they would behave any differently than you are behaving? You know it's wrong, too, and yet you still do it. Are they learning that when mom is most upset/angry/scared that she resorts to violence? well, at least she apologizes....IMO, it's not a positive dynamic, and it's within your control to change it. You are not a slave to your genetics/conditioning/emotions. You can choose differently than you have before. Right now, as of today









So, if spanking is out of your toolbox, what CAN you DO? Preventing the escalation of your emotions is the best thing, IMO, but....say you're at the edge. You will need something other than simply telling yourself what you _won't_ do. Can you count to 20 or 50 even before you make a sound? Can you sing a song (even if it's in your head)? Can you give yourself a sanity break--five minutes to yourself to regroup? Change locations? Go outside? Pretend there's a video camera hooked up inside your home w/live feed to the evening news? Can you picture your child on the edge of a building, about to fall off---and your next step is a matter of helping her or....

I am not about to pretend I am perfect---not even anywhere close to it. Sometimes, IME, some people only put out the happy details, and we're given an incomplete picture. We _all_ have our issues and our problems and challenges....it's important not to take these out on our children.

We're all on different areas on the road of learning and applying GD, but nonetheless, we're all on the journey together







We can meet you where you are, extend a helping hand---and help you discover just how strong and capable you are. Because you are


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I've never spanked, but I sure am a yeller. Not all the time, certainly not every day or even every other day but yelling is the main bad thing that I have to put down.

Even though I don't spank, I sometimes get too physical with DS (picking him up roughly, sitting him down roughly, holding down his legs to stop kicking - none of this is in a gentle manner







). This is usually when HE is already getting physical (kicking, hitting, tantruming) and I react in response to that. I'm not proud of it, but there you go.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *romans_mum* 
i have spanked, and i replyed, so did some other mamas

I should have just wrote one sentance, and left it at that. I think there are probably MANY more women who feel like that who would never respond to this "poll", because they don't want the judgement (like I'm getting right now







)

I didn't want a freakin lecture. I know I'm doing the best I can.

I'm reminded of this...

_*"don't judge anyone, till you've walked a mile in their mocassins"*_
-Native american Proverb


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
. . . because many of you GD'ers are sitting on the edge of your seat waiting to jump down our throats.

I'm sorry you feel judged and lectured. I really do think that the folks here believe strongly in non-violent discipline and seek to help others achieve that. You got several responses because you posted in a way that led me (and perhaps others) to believe that you were hitting your children but really wanting to stop. Of course you will draw advice when you make such a post in a GD forum. Kind of like posting in the circumcision forum that you have circ'ed before and wish to stop (I actually did this and got tons of responses -- all of them anti-circ, of course).

Also, to be perfectly honest, your statement about how you won't feel the "need" to hit your kids once they are older sort of came across as you feeling a "need" to hit them now. Perhaps I have misinterpreted and I apologize if I have, but I suspect that that statement led some of us to want to help you realize that there is no "need" to hit them now. Again, making an analogy, if I went into the circ forum and posted that I "needed" to circ my first son for whatever reason, I am certain that such a post would draw quite a passionate response. So some of your reaction is simply a function of the fact that the people here and MDC generally believe that hitting children is wrong. Always and regardless of circumstances.

I haven't seen the "throat-jumping" in this forum to which you refer and I hope you stick around. We are all on a journey to better our parenting skills and teaching techniques. I have been in other forums (other places) where there is much judgment but here I have seen so much wisdom, support and amazing advice.

Unless you seek to defend hitting children (simply not allowed here), I think we are all here to support and help one another. I don't hit my kids but I don't think that makes me a perfect parent or entitled to harshly judge others. I really don't. But I, like so many others here, refuse to ever justify, rationalize or condone hitting children either. If you are dedicated to stopping, I really believe you can do it! But like another poster said, you must take it out of your toolbox altogether. Best wishes to you and every other mama here who seeks to improve herself!


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I don't think it's fair or meaningful to compare people's responses to stress or life situations. Some people could endure the worst situations imaginable and never feel an urge to hit. Others deal with those urges at even mild provocations.

i never said i didnt feel the urge.
quite the contrary, my dd1 is three. im losing my mind, i rarely get time away from my kids, we dont do daycare, school, babysitters, ect. thanks to my abusive upbringing my knee jerk reaction is to yell and hit. it gets worse when im more stressed, or sleep deprived. its hard, but having children is hard. *theres no excuse to ever hit a child.*


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
But I'm the one that gets all the judgement. I should have just wrote one sentance, and left it at that.

the only thing i found issue with is that you seem to be taking the stance that hitting children is just something young mothers do, which it is not. its like some horrible pervasive myth that we young mothers just arent thinking.

im sure youre an awesome mom and you shouldnt feel attacked. your words just rubbed me the wrong way.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
So true. It really comes down to what we find acceptable on some level. DH was raised being hit and, although he has never hit our kids, he does struggle not to be physical (pulling DS into his room, grabbing him, etc.) when he is angry.

Once, when we discussed this he explained that "he just gets so angry he can't not do it." I asked him if he has ever been that angry with me. He said yes. Then I asked if he has ever considered putting his hands on me. He was totally appalled and said "no, of course I never would do that." So I asked him why it was that he gave himself permission to indulge his anger at our kids' expense but not mine. It was very thought-provoking.

He basically came to the conclusion that, having grown up seeing kids violated like that, but never adults, he internalized on some level that violence against kids is more acceptable. He rejects this internalized message but boy is it a powerful one! And he, like so many parents, has to really work hard to remind himself that it is no more acceptable to hit young people than it is to hit older people.

that is so true!
and a wonderful way to illustrate to someone who thinks its okay.
it also could explain to people who dont understand why most of us are so appalled at the thought of hitting children.

no ones trying to attack spankers but imagine your reaction if someone said they hit thier partner.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
the only thing i found issue with is that you seem to be taking the stance that hitting children is just something young mothers do, which it is not. its like some horrible pervasive myth that we young mothers just arent thinking.

im sure youre an awesome mom and you shouldnt feel attacked. your words just rubbed me the wrong way.

poxy~ I'm not taking a stance that young mothers always hit their kids. I think it has a lot to do with maturity. I might not be as mature as you, even if you are younger than me (I'm born august 81, but I'm a late-bloomer... didn't have boobs till 16, etc... I feel young right now, like I'm 15)... It has to do with being able to work through the crap, before having kids (which I was not able to do) Did you live alone for many years before being pregnant? did you procreate with a man you felt was worthy of producing offspring with? Are you happy now in your marriage?

god, there are so many things to contribute to how someone "ends up". Every single person has differnt DNA, and different circumstances. I guess the mind is what really needs to be changed, but some people just aren't ready for that yet.

If I ever end up on this board (I don't come here very often, obviously) I think I will be not at all judgemental of people who hit, and want to change. I'm not the type to do that. I care about the mother feelings, as much as the childs.

I'm glad that there are people like you, who really stick up for childrens rights all the time.

I think it's great if you don't spank, even though you grew up in an abusive home. that's quite a feat, and it must be hard for you.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
I have a very hard time being totally GD.

I think if I had planned my pregnancies, grew up, and had stability in my life (partner, $, home...) I would be a total GD-nut, like you all are.

maybe I'll be where you are one day.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
excuse me but i was 21 when my first was born, totally traumatic unplanned pregnancy, i moved around alot, lived with his mom then my mom, dp didnt commit to our family til sandrel was 7 months old. my dad abused my mom and my mom took it all out on me. not spaking, all out true abuse.
never really planned pregnancies(second was welcomed but not planned), i dont have a stable relationship with my dp, were in poverty and renting from a slumlord. and im a total GD-nut.

please dont buy into the 'young/poor mothers arent as good' rhetoric.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hippiemommie* 
This rubs me wrong too. My bestfriend lived in a cemetary and a shelter (when there was room) through her prengancy when she was 18. She even got disowned by her family and grew up in a VERY abusive home. She never hit her child. She was GD and didn't/doesn't know it. I don't think there is any excuse for hitting someone who can't defend themselves. Partners or stabitlity isn't going to make GD easier for you. You can only change yourself, within yourself. Those things are external.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I don't think it's fair or meaningful to compare people's responses to stress or life situations. Some people could endure the worst situations imaginable and never feel an urge to hit. Others deal with those urges at even mild provocations.

I don't think majazama ever said that ALL young mothers spank their kids- she's saying that these were her personal circumstances, it's straining her personal reserves and sometimes she's not able to control her urges to hi. Nowhere did she say that ALL young mothers spank or that ALL young mothers struggle with self-control- she's simply sharing her own story.

I will admit that I've also lost my temper and hit my kids. I'm not proud of it, and I'm working very very hard to control myself, but I'm not always sucessful.

I really have a problem with the "would you hit your spouse or partner?" argument. With an adult partner, you have the option of walking away, or sending him/her away, when things get heated. When you're responsible for a small child, you don't have that option. You can't go out for a walk to clear your head and leave a young child (or several young children) in the house alone. Sometimes you can't even get 5 minutes without being touched.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I really have a problem with the "would you hit your spouse or partner?" argument. With an adult partner, you have the option of walking away, or sending him/her away, when things get heated. When you're responsible for a small child, you don't have that option. You can't go out for a walk to clear your head and leave a young child (or several young children) in the house alone. Sometimes you can't even get 5 minutes without being touched.

Also, I doubt many of our husbands or partners bite our nipples (well maybe if you like it they do







: ) or kick us in the face during diaper changes.

~Nay


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Also, I doubt many of our husbands or partners bite our nipples (well maybe if you like it they do







: ) or kick us in the face during diaper changes.

~Nay

Or repeatedly scream a high-pitched scream at the top of their lungs, just because they can, or any of the other annoying things that toddlers and young children do that completely get on everybody's nerves.

Between childish behaviors (tantrums, biting nipples, etc) and the constant care (lack of privacy, sleep, and sometimes nutrition) children can evoke rage in a parent that we never knew we were capable of!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

I grew up in a household where spanking/hitting was pretty infrequent (especially for the South). I was spanked maybe 6-7 times total and always over clothes. No red marks or bruises. So I got off pretty lucky there. They weren't above the occaisonal slap, screaming tirade, grab, yank, etc. etc... you know how it is. I consider my mom to have been seriously emotionally abusive. Dad wasn't but since he runs his own business he wasn't home as much as we (my sisters and I) would've liked.

Someone mentioned genetics earlier in the thread. I'm sure that plays a huge role in how you feel in a situation and even how you react. But, I also agree with someone else who says you have to take control of yourself. I can use myself as an example. I have a bad temper. Mom said a few times that I have "The Classic Italian Temper"







I'm quick tempered and oh god do I get pissed. And I mean like that **snaps fingers** I'm talking kick a hole through the wall type mad. But it's over in a split second. I am never, ever angry longer than it takes to mutter explitives under my breath or kick something across the room (I'm working on that--hey I haven't thrown something in anger in quite a while







) The thing is, with my temper and my upbringing I could have easily ended up a spanking parent. But I didn't. I made a promise to myself, my husband, and my son that he would never be spanked by anyone. He's 2 and I've kept that promise.







It's hard, even after two years I sometimes feel like I could hit him if I would only give myself permission. That's why I'm so glad I made that promise.

Oh and sadly I know more than one AP/NFL family who spanks/smacks hands.

~Nay


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
poxy~ I'm not taking a stance that young mothers always hit their kids. I think it has a lot to do with maturity. I might not be as mature as you, even if you are younger than me (I'm born august 81, but I'm a late-bloomer... didn't have boobs till 16, etc... I feel young right now, like I'm 15)... It has to do with being able to work through the crap, before having kids (which I was not able to do) Did you live alone for many years before being pregnant? did you procreate with a man you felt was worthy of producing offspring with? Are you happy now in your marriage?

god, there are so many things to contribute to how someone "ends up". Every single person has differnt DNA, and different circumstances. I guess the mind is what really needs to be changed, but some people just aren't ready for that yet.

i was born in aug 82, i feel about 16, never lived on my own, pregnancy was unplanned and i certaintly wouldnt have picked him, im not married.
ive been working through my crap since i found out i was pregnant. with the added fun of bipolar, ocd, ed, poverty, and a crumbling relationship.
of course every person has thier own contributions and baggage but at some point you have to start taking responsibility for your actions.

im not saying this to you or trying to be harsh or anything but your own violations are no reason to violate another.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
I think it's great if you don't spank, even though you grew up in an abusive home. that's quite a feat, and it must be hard for you.

it is hard... but most good things are

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I don't think majazama ever said that ALL young mothers spank their kids- she's saying that these were her personal circumstances, it's straining her personal reserves and sometimes she's not able to control her urges to hi. Nowhere did she say that ALL young mothers spank or that ALL young mothers struggle with self-control- she's simply sharing her own story.

i never said that she said *all* young mothers hit, i didnt initiate absolutes in my original post.
i have no issue with her personal circumstances, i dont even have an issue with her losing control and hitting her child(ren). my issue was her rationale that less should be expected of her because of age.

as a young mother i find that rationale extremely offensive.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

Also, I doubt many of our husbands or partners bite our nipples (well maybe if you like it they do ) or kick us in the face during diaper changes.

Quote:

Or repeatedly scream a high-pitched scream at the top of their lungs, just because they can, or any of the other annoying things that toddlers and young children do that completely get on everybody's nerves.
Can we please not blame the children (even in a joking way).


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

No judgement from me, but please be careful with the lack of maturity reasoning and the when my kids get older reasoning. My father was 33 when I was born. I was spanked and belittled as a child. Did it get better the older he and I got? No! I was screamed at, pushed to the ground(and kicked while I was down once!), hair was pulled, punched in the arms and legs, etc,etc until I moved out at 16. Dealing with a child as they get older often gets MORE difficult as they become independant. Address the issues now while it's still fairly "easy". I'm not saying you will become abusive as your child gets older but be careful.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

I wanted to add that my father still claims that while he sometimes did things wrong I was a horrible difficult child. The implication that it's not so much his fault. If I say I'm tired because of the baby it's "payback" because I was such a demanding baby. A parent needs to take responsibility for their actions and work to change them if they want a good relationship with their child. I have a hard time even seeing my father 2-3 times a year.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
Can we please not blame the children (even in a joking way).









: We could also emphasize that most people have passionate love relationships with their partners that evoke extremely intense emotions. That only adult partners (not children) engage in the most provocotive behaviors such as commiting adultery, doing disastrous things with family finances, developing frustrating and devastating addictions, etc. etc. I'm not sure that it's fruitful to use the victim's actions to rationalize or compare levels of justification for family violence.

Another point: a child is defenseless. And adult can seek and obtain legal protection. I will stand right by my original analogy. Family violence is wrong, no matter which member is on the receiving end.

I will add that I am not one to demonize spousal/partner abusers either. They are most often also perpetuating a cycle of violence and too were once victims. Batterers who seek help and change are also heroic, in my eyes. The key to ending family violence is not blaming or or saying one form is "worse" than another. It's zero-tolerance for ALL of it, IMO.

I only compare adult vs. child violence to help people realize that, while one it still legal and one is not, they are both wrong. Sort of the way the intactivists often invoke female genital mutilation to get people thinking about male circ. Also, interesting (and sad fact): some studies have found a correlation between certain levels of corporal punishment of a child and that child's propensity to commit and/or endure violence against an adult partner later in life. SO there may be more of a link than people realize.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
...children can evoke rage in a parent that we never knew we were capable of!

So do adult partners. This is why the law lowers murder charges in certain circumstances to manslaugher if the killer was adequately "provoked" -- most often in situations of adultery. Also may be why so many women are killed by male partners.







: It's all very sad. At the end of the day though, even if a family member bites your nipple, has a tantrum, cheats on you, or mismanages the family finances, violence is never justifiable.


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

No, everyone doesn't spank but here's a little background:

I grew up in an extremely violent home. My father beat up my mom and my mother beat us up. We were beat with a belt, slapped in the face, kicked in the belly all in a dark room with the doors/windows shut.

what excuse did my mother have for the abuse? she was young when she had the first child (21 yrs, domestic violence victim, etc)

Do I still resent my mother? YES. she could have left the situation. she could have changed herself instead of hitting innocent children who cannot defend themselves. this subject really heats me up because it breaks my heart to hear about other kids going through what we did. Always being scared, timid, nervous and just sad children..

Thank you to pps who gave such positive advice. I really urge not to take it lightly. apologies and excuses do not make it better.

I strive not to yell or lose it when I deal with children (I'm an early childhood educator).. and I hope never to see the day where I hit my kid out of anger.

I'm not my mother and I'm not my father. I'm not a victim of my circumstances as a PP said. This is my mantra and it works!

good luck to those who really want to change. You can change NOW and not wait till they get old enough to talk because then it will become a habit or an addiction much like smoking.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

this is directed towards me? I don't want this whole thread to be about me.

I don't beat my kids, come on. they are not scared of me. I swat their bums once in awhile. You have no freakin clue what it's like to be me.

poxy~ I have bipolar too! It sure doesn't help anything.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
this is directed towards me? I don't want this whole thread to be about me.

I don't beat my kids, come on. they are not scared of me. I swat their bums once in awhile. You have no freakin clue what it's like to be me.

poxy~ I have bipolar too! It sure doesn't help anything.

no this thread isnt about you, weve said it loud and clear. its not that you hit your kids. *its your rationalizing thats troublesome.*


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I was told the same thing . . .that EVERYONE spanks at some point. (I had said I'd never spank.) That made me think . . .I changed my "I will never spank" to "I pray [I'm not even a praying kind of person!] I will never spank, because it will _always_ be a mistake."

Thus far, I have never spanked. DD doesn't even know what that word means (yet she uses words like "astonished"







). However, I HAVE yelled far too many times (and on certain occasions, in truly scary ways







-- I consider that to be just as bad or worse than spanking), have been impatient or unrealistic (my expectations), a few times moved her roughly, things like that. Thankfully, those times were wake-up calls that I had to make serious changes, and I paid attention . . .

I was spanked a few times (I think) as a child . . .I only remember once, running away from my dad when he was going to do it. I don't remember any fear or humiliation, as one might expect. I thought of it as a game, to be honest. However, I think spanking (for me to do to my DC) even once might be like opening Pandora's box. I just don't want to go there!


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blsilva* 
I think that if you have a good idea how to discipline without spanking, then you probably will not resort to spanking. For me, as with many, *spanking was something I did because I knew no other way*. It never felt right, just seemed to be the only option. You have a head start- you already know how to discipline without punishment. Now make a vow to yourself that you wil never spank, and make sure you have good ways of dealing with all possible situations, and you are setting yourself up for success.









:


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## rambunctiouscurls (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat* 
no this thread isnt about you, weve said it loud and clear. its not that you hit your kids. *its your rationalizing thats troublesome.*

Exactly!

I really am not judging those who have a hard time with it or saying that they are as bad as my parents. I was just sharing my experience and the mindset that my mother had was very similar (knowing it's wrong but rationalizing it).


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
So do adult partners. This is why the law lowers murder charges in certain circumstances to manslaugher if the killer was adequately "provoked" -- most often in situations of adultery. Also may be why so many women are killed by male partners.







: It's all very sad. At the end of the day though, even if a family member bites your nipple, has a tantrum, cheats on you, or mismanages the family finances, violence is never justifiable.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I really have a problem with the "would you hit your spouse or partner?" argument. With an adult partner, you have the option of walking away, or sending him/her away, when things get heated. When you're responsible for a small child, you don't have that option. You can't go out for a walk to clear your head and leave a young child (or several young children) in the house alone. Sometimes you can't even get 5 minutes without being touched.
The opposite is true as well. Just like you said - adults have the option of walking away when things get heated. Kids do not.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
this is directed towards me? I don't want this whole thread to be about me.

I don't beat my kids, come on. they are not scared of me. I swat their bums once in awhile. You have no freakin clue what it's like to be me.

poxy~ I have bipolar too! It sure doesn't help anything.

No one said that you do beat your kids. But they are four and two. My point was that the older they get the worse it gets sometimes. I don't think anyone is saying that you are abusive or going to be abusive, but the fact that you rationalize spanking sends up warning signs. Now is the time to take a good hard look at yourself to see if maybe something is wrong. If(and I'm not saying that there is) there is something that needs to be changed, do it now, not later. I had a lot of anger built up from the past and I ended finding counseling to work through it.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
I asked if he has ever considered putting his hands on me. He was totally appalled and said "no, of course I never would do that." ...He basically came to the conclusion that, having grown up seeing kids violated like that, but never adults, he internalized on some level that violence against kids is more acceptable...

Really provided some insight on the mechanism of domestic violence against women, ya know?

Some boys/girls grow up seeing children and _women_ abused, and then internalize the concept that violence against both is acceptable.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

Can you please leave me out of this conversation.

I wish I was such a GD mom like you all. I wish I was perfect too, and could join into your thread in a posative way. I made the mistake to replying honestly to a thread I saw in the new posts., WHAT A MISTAKE! I definately won't let that happen again.

Poxy~ I'm not even going to talk to you anymore. You are blowing this out of proportion.







: I'm not rationalizing it, I'm saying 'why' I feel that urge. You said it loud and clear that this thread isn't about me? hmmmmm, I think it has become about me. I don't see any loud and clear.

_You guys have given me something to think about, but you can't change anyone, you know. They will only change when they are ready. No matter how much you say "hurting your kids", and horror stories of escalating "abuse".
_


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Really provided some insight on the mechanism of domestic violence against women, ya know?

Some boys/girls grow up seeing children and _women_ abused, and then internalize the concept that violence against both is acceptable.

Absolutely. And this is why I feel it is so incredibly important to focus -- in a compassionate manner -- on breaking cycles of violence rather than primarily on rationalizing/justifying/explaining them. After all, adults embroiled in domestic violence against adults have reasons for their violence just as people who hit children do. Many have grown up enduring and/or witnessing domestic abuse and find themselves in horrid and stressful circumstances (poverty, mental illness, homelessness, drug use, etc.)

I would love to see less blame (not necessarily referring to MDC but society in general) and more focus on how to break cycles of violence. How can we help adults refrain from hitting other adults when life's stressors overwhelm them? How can we help adults refrain from hitting children when life's stressors overwhelm them? While we can (and should) display compassion and offer support for both victims and aggressors, there is no excuse for family violence. It is never acceptable and rationalizing it or shifting blame to the victims is a dangerous, slippery slope, in my view.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Majazama, I don't think that you made a mistake answering this thread. I wasn't judging you, just giving my thoughts from my own experience. They may or may not apply to you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
At the end of the day though, even if a family member bites your nipple...violence is never justifiable.

ummm...in that circumstance, I wouldn't hit my child, but you can bet I'd hit my husband! Pain _is_ a trigger for violent acts (and I believe that's a pro-survival trait) and being bit on the nipple is an attack. With an adult, I'd feel fully entitled to use whatever level of violence was necessary to protect myself. (With a nursing infant, I'm well aware that it's not an attack.)

I don't "blame" the child, but it's absolutely true that we put up with behaviour from our children that we would never take from an adult. It's also true that when my ex made me angry enough to hit him - frequently in our last months - I could completely remove myself from the situation. I _can't_ leave a children alone in the house.

Does that mean I think it's okay to hit kids? No. But, I don't think that hitting adults is a reasonable comparison. (The one time I hit dd, I would have absolutely hit an adult in the same circumstances...and I wouldn't have pulled it.)


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I made a decision before I had children that I would never hit them. When Dd was 3 I was so upset I swatted her on her butt .. my hand felt like it was in water, could hardly move... then after being swatted my dd looked at me and started laughing... and that was the first and last time I ever hit one of my children.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
ummm...in that circumstance, I wouldn't hit my child, but you can bet I'd hit my husband! Pain _is_ a trigger for violent acts (and I believe that's a pro-survival trait) and being bit on the nipple is an attack. With an adult, I'd feel fully entitled to use whatever level of violence was necessary to protect myself. (With a nursing infant, I'm well aware that it's not an attack.)

I don't "blame" the child, but it's absolutely true that we put up with behaviour from our children that we would never take from an adult. It's also true that when my ex made me angry enough to hit him - frequently in our last months - I could completely remove myself from the situation. I _can't_ leave a children alone in the house.

Does that mean I think it's okay to hit kids? No. But, I don't think that hitting adults is a reasonable comparison. (The one time I hit dd, I would have absolutely hit an adult in the same circumstances...and I wouldn't have pulled it.)

I was referring to the example given, which was a nursing child biting a nipple. I do believe in self-defense and a person is plainly entitled to defend herself against attacks from another adult. I do not see that a nursing infant/child or baby kicking during a diaper change (another example given here) could ever warrant an adult's violent self-"defense."

I still favor the analogy because a child's behavior no more warrants a violent response than an adult's. And personally, ex-boyfriends and my DH have angered me more than my kids ever have! I know we all differ as to our "triggers" but I think we all agree that hitting a family member in anger is unacceptable.

I also think the comparison is apt because it used to be legal for men to hit their wives to "discipline" them. I'm sure arguments similar to those used to justify hitting children were made. I hope that one day, like hitting adults, hitting children is also made legally unacceptable.

As for the thought that one can "just leave" a violent adult (I don't necessarily agree with this -- many battered women are unable to leave during a violent attack), an adult CAN place a child in a safe place (crib, baby-proofed room, etc.) and step away. I don't think the fact that the victim is MORE vulnerable makes the violence any more explicable.

It may be a fine line between explaining violent behavior and victim-blaming but I still think that focusing on the victim's behavior is a dangerous and slippery slope. Some of us are triggered more by chioldrens' behavior and some by our partner's behavior. Either way, family violence is always unacceptable (even though all domestic/family violence is usually explainable -- she cheated on me, he gambled away our money, she wriggled during a diaper change, he bit while nursing, she threatened to leave me, he slept with my best friend, etc.).


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## jenji (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swirly* 
An AP friend of mine said that everyone, even the most gentle mamas, has spanked in anger.

I'm not a mom just yet, but I know I can disagree with this because although I was spanked when growing up it wasn't ever in rage or anger. My mom would always send me to my room for at least 5 minutes (which was by far the worst part of punishment because I knew it was coming) then my mom would ask me about what I'd done and did I know what was wrong about it and what would have been better. after that I would get my spanking.
I don't remember a single time of her ever spanking me without a time to calm down and without us talking about what rule I had broken/why I was being punished.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenji* 
I'm not a mom just yet, but I know I can disagree with this because although I was spanked when growing up it wasn't ever in rage or anger. My mom would always send me to my room for at least 5 minutes (which was by far the worst part of punishment because I knew it was coming) then my mom would ask me about what I'd done and did I know what was wrong about it and what would have been better. after that I would get my spanking.
I don't remember a single time of her ever spanking me without a time to calm down and without us talking about what rule I had broken/why I was being punished.

yeah, some people dont do it out of anger, but think that it is helping their children learn... which i dont understand..


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

that i know majazama in real life, she is my sister in law.. and though we dont always see eye to eye on everything, we do on gentle discipline and natural parenting..*she is a rad momma* (in more ways than one), her kids and neice and nephiew LOVE her and she is doing the best job that she can do, right now, in this place in her life.

ive spent lots of time with her and her kids, we have lived in the same house, the same town for a lot of time.. and ive never once seen anything that i would consider harmful.

i also wanted to say that ive swatted at my son before as well.. ive never pulled down his pants and spanked him over my knee like my mom did a few times (that i can remember).. and i yell sometimes. i always always talk with him after and let him know that it wasnt okay for m to lose my temper..ect ect.. we snuggle and hug and i know that he is damaged by my being a person who feels things..

im also a young mother with 2 young kids..sometimes a really rocky relationship with a really young dad and a stressful life. but comaring You to someone else.. even if yo uare in identical situations is crazy.. you just cant. everyone fels differently..everyoe reacts diferently..everyone is their own person.

i wish that people could be more supportive and less out to attack other mommas. the world that we live in is so full of bad stuff already.. if we lived in a society that focused more on family and support and tribal living i dont think we would even need to THINK these bad thoughts, let alone act on them (though sometimes the reason people hurt is that they dont think first) we would be able to take the space that we need to reach a calm, centered space inside of ourselves to deal gently with our kids. kids would have more than one momma, auntie, grama, big sister and the parents wouldnt get so overwhelmed..

and i think its a load of crap all of you mamas who say you have never even thought bad thoughts about your kids (or ever yelled or swatted at them or given them a time out or reacted in less than a gentle way).. because i love my kids more than anything in the world times 100 but sometimes i get so mad i want to scream and throw them out the window. how can you NOT feel that way somtimes?


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

MamaFern said:


> and i think its a load of crap all of you mamas who say you have never even thought bad thoughts about your kids.. QUOTE]
> 
> I have never seen a mama here claim to never be frustrated, angry or have "bad thoughts." Ever. In fact, have you checked out the "mama rage" thread? It is full of mamas who may not hit but who definitely deal with anger. I posted "bad thoughts" there myself.
> 
> ...


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

ive reacted this way. i didnt hit him but i pushed my son - hard.
my son was almost a year old and we were lying in bed snuggling and goofing around and and he lifted up his head and smashed my face/nose with his forehead. it REALLY hurt and i said "Oww.. that hurts mommy! you need to be gentle" and about 5 seconds later he did it again but harder and i just pushed him, and pretty hard, away from me..across the bed.. i was almost blindd by pain and it was an instinctual reaction... and he cried.. i didnt hurt him, but im sure i scared him.. but he never did anything like that again. he knew he had really hurt me.. and i think that kids need to learn that we as parents feel pain too!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isabel rose* 
I whacked my friend's 24moDS once, of the 3 of us I was most upset about it - he was lying with his head on my lap & turned and BIT my inner thigh through my jeans(it BLED), my hand just came down reflexively on his bum. luckily he wore cloth nappies & didn't even feel it & my friend just laughed at my dismay & said "natural consequences!" But I don't think EVERYONE _will_ hit their child, it depends on the people, the situation they're in & how happy they are at the time, and if you set out *not* to spank & are sure of your reasoning you're a lot less likely to do it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
I still favor the analogy because a child's behavior no more warrants a violent response than an adult's.

In some cases, a child's behaviour warrants a violent response _less_ than an adult's behaviour. But, that doesn't make the analogy valid, imo. We're dealing with two very different situations. For example, when dd pulled ds2's hair while he was nursing, I shouldn't have hit her, and her behaviour was completely developmentally appropriate. It is never developmentally appropriate for an adult to pull an infant's hair, and I would definitely react with violence to an adult who did the same thing dd did.

Quote:

As for the thought that one can "just leave" a violent adult (I don't necessarily agree with this -- many battered women are unable to leave during a violent attack), an adult CAN place a child in a safe place (crib, baby-proofed room, etc.) and step away. I don't think the fact that the victim is MORE vulnerable makes the violence any more explicable.
I don't think anybody was talking about just leaving a violent adult. We were talking (at least I was) about the fact that I can walk away from an adult when _I'm_ becoming angry at them. I could walk out the door when my ex whined at me about not having money for new jeans, after he'd blown his whole paycheque on pot (and lied about paying bills). I cannot just walk out if I'm having trouble coping with dd and ds2. I can't just leave. The most I could do is put one of them in the playpen (not both, if dd is angry at ds2)...and the screaming or whatever would still grate on me. Also, the knowledge that I was 100% responsible for ds1's health, safety and wellbeing _was_ the straw that broke the camel's back and caused me to spank him on one occasion. Does that make sense? No - not really...but it still happened...too much stress, too much failure to make his life what it should have been, and too many obstacles from him when I tried to make things work - and I snapped.

Quote:

It may be a fine line between explaining violent behavior and victim-blaming but I still think that focusing on the victim's behavior is a dangerous and slippery slope. Some of us are triggered more by chioldrens' behavior and some by our partner's behavior. Either way, family violence is always unacceptable (even though all domestic/family violence is usually explainable -- she cheated on me, he gambled away our money, she wriggled during a diaper change, he bit while nursing, she threatened to leave me, he slept with my best friend, etc.).
Okay - if we're going to equat childen with adults and state that all family violence is unacceptable, how do you advise handling the children who behave in an unacceptable fashion? The bottom line is that I take violence from my kids every single day that would cause me to eject _any_ adult from my life. My children have bit me, punched me, kicked me, clawed me, etc...behaviour I wouldn't tolerate from anybody else. Children and adults aren't the same. (Incidentally, you're right about triggers. The only thing in your list of explainable violence that I could imagine getting violent over is the money thing. Somebody who steals my money, leaving me and my children hungry or cold or whatever, has attacked me. I don't see any of those other things as an attack.)


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

thanks for sticking up for me, fern.


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

i do realise that my talking about mommas who dont even think bad thoughts was a bit of an exageration..

i just get so mad when people are so judgemental..and so quick to react in anger on here when they say that they are soooo gentle at home with their children.

even before this thread ive always avoided the GD board.. not because i dont totally believe in GD or live the GD life with my kids.. but because there do seem to be a lot of mommas with the "im holier than thou" attitude who do make people feel really bad.. people who try really hard to be gentle parents.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
... then after being swatted my dd looked at me and started laughing... and that was the first and last time I ever hit one of my children.









That's great!

It's neat how kids internalize the consistent feedback they receive. A very gentle mama once told me about absolutely losing her temper with her six year old son and screaming at him in the middle of an argument "you're stupid!"

He stopped screaming and yelling at her, looked at her with complete skepticism - as though she'd said something utterly off the wall ridiculous and said "No I'm not, Mom. That's dumb". Then went right back to arguing. She was so relieved and proud that he didn't even entertain her insult as being plausible _for even a second_, because all her years of love and positive reinforcement had built such a strong sense of self into him







.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Everyone, please remember that majazama has asked in post #103 to be left out of the discussion, and I ask that everyone respect her wishes to not be discussed.

There is no room for judgement of individual mothers, nor is there room for personally pointed negativity, judgemental or otherwise. If one is comfortable with what one is doing, there is no need for defensiveness. Let's stick to the Original post's topic, please, and take any personal commentary to the PM system in an effort to keep this thread from being further derailed by individual issues. A this point, these would best be spun-off into their own threads so that anyone needing support and encouragement could best get their needs met.

In participating within the GD forum, it is understood that the aim of the forum is to help each other learn and apply Gentle Discipline concepts while raising their children. Any advocation of or upholding of or preference for physical punishment is inappropriately posted within this forum.

Please feel free to PM me or heartmama with any questions or concerns, and as always, if you see a post that feels "off" or you believe violates the MDC User Agreement, please contact a moderator and/or use the report button, but do not make the post(s) of concern a topic within the thread. Thanks


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I've said it before & I'll say it again...when it comes to this board & GD in general...I am head over heels in love with peacelovingmama!







Her ability to calmly discuss things that infuriate me impresses me time and time again. She can articulate my thoughts so well that sometimes I don't even bother replying when she already has. She's my GD hero!

Her posts are right on, every time...

So a big







: to everything she's said!


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

No. I don't spank in anger. Never have. I do get angry though.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Storm Bride said:


> In some cases, a child's behaviour warrants a violent response _less_ than an adult's behaviour. [QUOTE}
> 
> I strongly believe that a child's behavior NEVER warrants a violent response.
> 
> ...


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I've said it before & I'll say it again...when it comes to this board & GD in general...I am head over heels in love with peacelovingmama!







Her ability to calmly discuss things that infuriate me impresses me time and time again. She can articulate my thoughts so well that sometimes I don't even bother replying when she already has. She's my GD hero!

Her posts are right on, every time...

So a big







: to everything she's said!























Thank you for your kind words -- I love you too!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

a lot of mommas with the "im holier than thou" attitude who do make people feel really bad.
Something I've found is that no one can ever "_make_" me feel a certain way. I don't give them that power. I'm responsible for my own emotions









It can be frustrating to perceive that parents who post here think of themselves as perfect...but in reality, if one were to spend some time here, I think you'd find (general you) that we're all learning, struggling and doing what we can in our individual circumstances...no matter what they might be. We all say it over and over, no one is perfect...and if they pretend to be, well, that's their own business







. It can be annoying, but in the end, it makes no difference to me what imaginary image someone else wants to portray. I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said "no one can make you feel inferior without your permission."

So, IMO, if someone wants to think that every AP parent will eventually spank, it is not a reflection upon me or what I do or don't do. It's not a death sentence or permission for me to spank (or swat or paddle or pop--whatever term here) Her opinion is just that. It might be justifying her own inadequacies she's feeling, rationalizing, whatever...either way, it's not about anyone else but her









YMMV


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

georgia said:


> Something I've found is that no one can ever "_make_" me feel a certain way. I don't give them that power. I'm responsible for my own emotions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:

Okay - if we're going to equat childen with adults and state that all family violence is unacceptable, how do you advise handling the children who behave in an unacceptable fashion? [QUOTE}

Are you suggesting that violence is the only way to handle children who "behave in an unacceptable fashion"?
....

I don't "equate children with adults" by any means. Of course children are developmentally quite different, have different needs, are much more physically and psychologically vulnerable, and yes, behave anti-socially at times. But when it comes to the right to be free from physical violence, I very strongly believe that children have that right as much as adults do.
Of course I'm not suggesting that violence is the only way to handle children. However, I do sometimes think it's the only way to handle adults. This is why I find the whole argument/analogy/comparison about adults and children to be completely off base. Our interactions and relationships with children are totally different from our interactions and relationships with adults. When I hit dd, I felt awful - it was my single worst moment with her ever. If an adult had done the same thing, I'd have hit them with no second thoughts whatsoever. If anything, I believe that chidren have more right than adults to be free of physical violence.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama* 
No. I don't spank in anger. Never have. I do get angry though.









Getting angry is nothing to be embarrassed about. That is what I emphasize with my DC . . .the feeling is fine, it's all what you do with it that counts.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Of course I'm not suggesting that violence is the only way to handle children. However, I do sometimes think it's the only way to handle adults...









: Really? I've never hit anyone. Somehow I've managed to handle all the adults I've met in my life.

When is violence 'the only way' to handle someone - adult or child? Aside from some crazy extreme example like defending your life against an attacker, I can't think of a scenario in which lots of other (better) options than violence exist.


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Wow, I have so little time at the computer, that every time I have come to read this thread, my time has gotten away from me before i can respond.

Thanks everyone who has contributed to this. I was not conducting a poll, but rather was seeking reassurance that it is indeed possible to parent without resorting to physical and punitive discipline. Those who chose to share their struggles in this area, thank you for doing so, and I hope we can all continue to learn and grow here in this supportive forum. Those who shared with me that they have been able to not spank, thank you also.

Knowing my own personality, I know I shall struggle with yelling, but I truly hope I never spank. I was raised with spanking, but it wasn't that often. Mostly it was just a hugely critical and punitive atmosphere. Spanking was completely ineffective on me and just made me angrier usually (eroding the relationship with my parent), so I don't want it in my "toolbox."

I have a brother who is 16 years my junior, and our father died suddenly when he was around 8 and I was 24 (and our sister was 10). I had to help a lot with parenting for a while until my stepmom was feeling better. On two occasions I spanked him (one swat to the hiney) when he was 1). trying to drown our sister in the ocean and he wouldn't listen to me to stop and 2.) hitting same sister and wouldn't stop. Both times, the look of shock and dismay on his face, coupled with the way I felt about doing it (seemed ridiculous to try to stop violence with violence, playing the "I'm bigger than you" card) has stuck with me, and I still feel horrible about it (12 years later).

I never want to see that look on my daughter's face.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 







: Really? I've never hit anyone. Somehow I've managed to handle all the adults I've met in my life.

*When is violence 'the only way' to handle someone* - adult or child? Aside from some crazy extreme example like *defending your life against an attacker*, I can't think of a scenario in which lots of other (better) options than violence exist.

I added the bold...you just answered your own question.

Violence is sometimes the only way to defend yourself or your child. If you've read my previous posts, you'll know that I was talking about the one time I hit dd - with no thought, when she pulled ds2's hair while he was nursing. While I have trouble imagining an adult doing the same thing to a baby, I definitely feel that a violent response would be warranted in that case. Despite the fact that I did hit dd, I don't think that was an appropriate response...I do think it would have been appropriate, had she been an adult engaging in pulling the hair of a nursing baby.

I don't think defending your life or your child's life is a "crazy extreme" example. I've been attacked at knifepoint, almost pulled into a car by two guys, and another experience I can't describe easily...three separate occasions, all of which requried some degree of violence - or the threat thereof - to extricate myself from. When something has happened to me three times in my life, I don't consider it a "crazy extreme". There was also at least one other situation in which I absolutely should have used violence, and will probably always regret not doing so.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Comparing children to adults is very helpful in terms of philosophical shifting of how we view our "rights" in relating to our children.

However it's important to keep in mind that practical solutions are the keystone of this forum. We do live with and tolerate from children a degree of aggression for which most parents are unprepared, based on interactions with other adults. It can be a genuine shock for parents when a 3 year old slaps them across the face or kicks a parent hard in the stomach with a boot covered foot. If we are thinking about a child only in terms of treating them as we would an adult, our reaction in such a moment could be more defensive and aggressive, rather than less.

Ultimately many parents find more value and resolve in 'not hitting', if they stay connected to what is unique about their relationship to their children. Also, and most important, is clarifying in our own minds what response we are committed too when/if our child is aggressive towards us. Parents need something tangible to fall back upon--words, actions, and thoughts that form a non violent response. Beneath that is the fundamental commitment not to hit. That is vital. But as with anything, it's not enough to say what we won't do...we need to keep each other focused on tangible solutions for the moments a parent finds personally challenging.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie* 
No one said that you do beat your kids. But they are four and two. My point was that the older they get the worse it gets sometimes. I don't think anyone is saying that you are abusive or going to be abusive, but the fact that you rationalize spanking sends up warning signs. Now is the time to take a good hard look at yourself to see if maybe something is wrong. If(and I'm not saying that there is) there is something that needs to be changed, do it now, not later. I had a lot of anger built up from the past and I ended finding counseling to work through it.

What type of counselor did you see? Could you recommend any books?

~Nay


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaFern* 

and i think its a load of crap all of you mamas who say you have never even thought bad thoughts about your kids (or ever yelled or swatted at them or given them a time out or reacted in less than a gentle way).. because i love my kids more than anything in the world times 100 but sometimes i get so mad i want to scream and throw them out the window. how can you NOT feel that way somtimes?

Thank you for saying this. I feel the same way sometimes.

~Nay


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
What type of counselor did you see? Could you recommend any books?

~Nay

I saw a psychologist who specialized in family services. I was lucky and got a great one right off the bat. I don't think that it's the hour in therapy that helps so much as the work I did afterward and it helped having an empathic ear and unbiased opinion.


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## MomInCalifornia (Jul 17, 2003)

I've certainly had the desire, and I have used more force than needed to move a child or hold a hand, but no, I have not spanked my children (almost 2 and 4). However, I have had many a desire to


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## Diane B (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaFern* 
and i think its a load of crap all of you mamas who say you have never even thought bad thoughts about your kids (or ever yelled or swatted at them or given them a time out or reacted in less than a gentle way).. because i love my kids more than anything in the world times 100 but sometimes i get so mad i want to scream and throw them out the window. how can you NOT feel that way somtimes?

Dear Mama,

I will tell you from my own heart how this is possible for me (or at least 95% possible, with a few very rare exceptions.) I did a LOT of healing of my own wounds from my childhood - very hard, difficult and painful work. I have a long-term Buddhist spiritual practice that supports my commitment to non-violence and patience in my daily life. I have enough financial resources (mostly), a supportive partner, a decent place to live, and a child without a disability or other severe behavioral challenges (just a normal toddler). Also, my daughter was adopted after 10 years of wanting a child, so I was more than ready to be a mom!

I totally realize that a lot of mothers are not nearly this fortunate. We are all trying to move in a better direction with good intention and whether for some of us that's yelling less, or using time outs instead of hitting, or whatever, I respect that. I still have many areas to improve on too, especially in being more patient with my partner. I just want us all to know that it is possible to cultivate peace in our bodies and minds, over time, with commitment and practice, and to offer that peacefulness within our families.


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