# Epsom salt baths?!! GRRRR I don't get it...



## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

How is it that epsom salt baths that are soothing, calming and relaxing for everyone else do NOT have the same affect on my kids?! I give my kids epsom salt baths and they go off the deep end! AND it's not a one time fluke. It's every time they take an epsom salt bath. The salts appear to affect them the way allergenic foods would affect a child who was sensitive to it. Can kids be allergic to salts?









Anyone else have this experience?


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

It's a reaction to being VERY low on mag. Basically, the body is extremely tuned into mag as it tries to get enough for use, and when it is introduced to the system, it overreacts.

It's late and I'm not explaining it well. But yes, totally possible . Start with extremely small amounts of Epsom salts - like 1 tablespoon in a bath. and work up from there,


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ASusan* 
It's a reaction to being VERY low on mag. Basically, the body is extremely tuned into mag as it tries to get enough for use, and when it is introduced to the system, it overreacts.

It's late and I'm not explaining it well. But yes, totally possible . Start with extremely small amounts of Epsom salts - like 1 tablespoon in a bath. and work up from there,

the other possibility is that the body is low on co-factors required for mag use, such as B6... I believe low folate and low Molybdenum are also possible factors.


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

♥


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terrabella* 
Dang, how do you guys retain all of this info?









For me, it pretty much is my _job_ right now. I think, breathe, eat, sleep, live and write nutritional stuff all day, every day with my kids and online. And I still don't retain nearly ALL of it. I'm constantly re-looking up info, checking, re-checking, re-re-checking and then checking again.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
How is it that epsom salt baths that are soothing, calming and relaxing for everyone else do NOT have the same affect on my kids?! I give my kids epsom salt baths and they go off the deep end! AND it's not a one time fluke. It's every time they take an epsom salt bath. The salts appear to affect them the way allergenic foods would affect a child who was sensitive to it. Can kids be allergic to salts?









Anyone else have this experience?

People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
People who have *oxalate issues* have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.

first time I've heard this and I will always bow to PB's superior knowledge.
that would mean it's caused by a blocked or low functioning detox pathway though then, right?


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## MoonWillow (May 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *terrabella* 
Dang, how do you guys retain all of this info?









I've thought this so many times.


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
first time I've heard this and I will always bow to PB's superior knowledge.
that would mean it's caused by a blocked or low functioning detox pathway though then, right?

It ALL comes back to detox pathways!!!


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Thank-you all so much for your replies!

My kids have been taking sea salt baths practically since they were born. We don't use soap in the bath because my son has eczema and it makes it worse. In the last yr I switched to using epsom salts as they were cheaper. I use a couple of cups in a large sized tub.

I don't think my kids are *super* deficient in magnesium. Awhile ago I tried to supplement their mag intake. My eldest tolerates kirkman's mag powder (magnesium citrate). However, my middle child has some strange intolerances. I tried him on water kefir. Even 1/8 teaspoon gave him liquid (clear liquid) diarrhea....he's never had this before. I tried him on this on several occasions w/the same results. Inositol, even at small doses, gives him the same type of diarrhea as kefir and mag gives him very loose bm's. So I can't get a lot of mag into him because I'm assuming he's just not absorbing it.

I also use kirkman's magnesium cream, though I'm not sure exactly how much is absorbed. My son also drinks a smoothie w/a LOT of hempseed in it...I think this is loaded w/mag?

So maybe the cofactors? Vit B6? How much for a 45lb 6 yo? He takes a multi vit that claims 100% RDA...is this enough? The multivit also does folic acid but I'm not sure about moly. Is there a wholefood (vegetarian) source for this?

It is interesting that my 2 eldest kids (my eldest has aspergers and my middle child is spectrum-y) are far more negatively affected by the epsom salts than my third child who actually appears soporific after her bath!


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
Thank-you all so much for your replies!

My kids have been taking sea salt baths practically since they were born. We don't use soap in the bath because my son has eczema and it makes it worse. In the last yr I switched to using epsom salts as they were cheaper. I use a couple of cups in a large sized tub.

I don't think my kids are *super* deficient in magnesium. Awhile ago I tried to supplement their mag intake. My eldest tolerates kirkman's mag powder (magnesium citrate). However, my middle child has some strange intolerances. I tried him on water kefir. Even 1/8 teaspoon gave him liquid (clear liquid) diarrhea....he's never had this before. I tried him on this on several occasions w/the same results. Inositol, even at small doses, gives him the same type of diarrhea as kefir and mag gives him very loose bm's. So I can't get a lot of mag into him because I'm assuming he's just not absorbing it.

I also use kirkman's magnesium cream, though I'm not sure exactly how much is absorbed. My son also drinks a smoothie w/a LOT of hempseed in it...I think this is loaded w/mag?

So maybe the cofactors? Vit B6? How much for a 45lb 6 yo? He takes a multi vit that claims 100% RDA...is this enough? The multivit also does folic acid but I'm not sure about moly. Is there a wholefood (vegetarian) source for this?

It is interesting that my 2 eldest kids (my eldest has aspergers and my middle child is spectrum-y) are far more negatively affected by the epsom salts than my third child who actually appears soporific after her bath!

mamafish9 had this same problem, i believe, with her ds who has autism. i think it turned out to be a b6 deficiency preventing use of mag by cells... i'll ask her to come here.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Wow... what timing that I saw a link to this thread (thanks JR) just after DD gets out of an epsom salt bath and runs shrieking around the house in circles for 20 minutes (happy shrieking, not tantrum shrieking, but out of control all the same.)







She also had a bite of my buckwheat/chocolate cookie before bath, so I wasn't positive which one it was (I was thinking sugar, but maybe it was the oxalates instead?). But now I'm thinking both. ugh.

I started a b6 supp (P5P) a couple weeks ago, and it seemed to make me VERY irritable for the week that I took it (although I'm not positive that was the cause). Maybe I should try again? Sorry to hijack OP.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Here as ordered







.

Actually, my DS wasn't negatively affected by Epsom salts baths - he just didn't get any positive impact, and with very low mag and sals issues, we figured he should. Once we got him on enough b6, now they're great. He's 2.5, and I give him about 15-20mg of b6 a day, split into 4 doses. That's quite a lot, but he has high antimony, which messes with the body's ability to utilize magnesium - and b6 counteracts that. We're working on lowering his antimony, and as we do, his b6 need is coming down. (Ask me how much fun it is to try to split a 50mg capsule into the right sized doses - I know that right now 20mg a day is too much, but 12 is too little, based on symptoms).

I hadn't heard the oxalates thing before though, that's really interesting. PB, do you know the mechanism for that - what's getting messed with? (Yes, I am in the biochemistry geek club along with JR







).


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
So maybe the cofactors? Vit B6? How much for a 45lb 6 yo? He takes a multi vit that claims 100% RDA...is this enough? The multivit also does folic acid but I'm not sure about moly. Is there a wholefood (vegetarian) source for this?

Best source of moly is beans/lentils.

Does the oxalate link have to do with Kreb's cycle? Is it the mag or the sulfate? Can't oxalates cause diarrhea? And aren't oxalates dumped to the gut where they're supposed to bind with calcium and/or get broken down by bacteria? Hmmm...


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Best source of moly is beans/lentils.

Does the oxalate link have to do with Kreb's cycle? Is it the mag or the sulfate? Can't oxalates cause diarrhea? And aren't oxalates dumped to the gut where they're supposed to bind with calcium and/or get broken down by bacteria? Hmmm...

Yes, oxalates *can* cause diarrhea all on their own. In this case it's the mag which can disrupt the calcium that is usually required in excess to deal with the oxalate issue. Enough mag for the average person isn't always the most comfy thing for someone with oxalate issues.

there is one other possible issue that I was unaware of. I should have more details soon.


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Whoa Nellie!! Getting lost in the forest here....when you talk about oxalates are you referring to the amt of oxalates in a person's diet or how they metabolize them? I know oxalates block calcium absorption so that would, in turn, affect mag absorption but not sure how B6 fits in. How would I determine if my son has an oxalate issue? My eldest daughter seems to be be quite different in her tolerances. She can tolerate mag, inositol and kefir w/no side affects whatsoever though she still goes nutty after the ES baths!


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Thanks so much for your input and for fetching mamafish9!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JacquelineR* 
mamafish9 had this same problem, i believe, with her ds who has autism. i think it turned out to be a b6 deficiency preventing use of mag by cells... i'll ask her to come here.


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

I wish more people WOULD hijack...I learn so much more that way







!

Your DD sounds like my kids after the bath...they just totally lose every shred of self control and I turn into a screaming banshee







...but it's as if I'm looking in a window at my kids and they can see me but they can't hear a word I'm saying (or screaming)!

I've heard that B vits can make some people terribly jittery and I guess maybe that's why I've been avoiding....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Wow... what timing that I saw a link to this thread (thanks JR) just after DD gets out of an epsom salt bath and runs shrieking around the house in circles for 20 minutes (happy shrieking, not tantrum shrieking, but out of control all the same.)







She also had a bite of my buckwheat/chocolate cookie before bath, so I wasn't positive which one it was (I was thinking sugar, but maybe it was the oxalates instead?). But now I'm thinking both. ugh.

I started a b6 supp (P5P) a couple weeks ago, and it seemed to make me VERY irritable for the week that I took it (although I'm not positive that was the cause). Maybe I should try again? Sorry to hijack OP.


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamafish9* 
Here as ordered







.

Actually, my DS wasn't negatively affected by Epsom salts baths - he just didn't get any positive impact, and with very low mag and sals issues, we figured he should. Once we got him on enough b6, now they're great. He's 2.5, and I give him about 15-20mg of b6 a day, split into 4 doses. That's quite a lot, but he has high antimony, which messes with the body's ability to utilize magnesium - and b6 counteracts that. We're working on lowering his antimony, and as we do, his b6 need is coming down. (Ask me how much fun it is to try to split a 50mg capsule into the right sized doses - I know that right now 20mg a day is too much, but 12 is too little, based on symptoms).

I hadn't heard the oxalates thing before though, that's really interesting. PB, do you know the mechanism for that - what's getting messed with? (Yes, I am in the biochemistry geek club along with JR







).

Thanks for your input! Does supplementing your son w/B6 actually allow him to tolerate higher doses of mag? How does a 2.5 yo have high antimony levels? How was that tested for? Hope I'm not being too nosy but I know next to nothing about most of this! Any info would be much appreciated!


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whoMe* 
Best source of moly is beans/lentils.

Does the oxalate link have to do with Kreb's cycle? Is it the mag or the sulfate? Can't oxalates cause diarrhea? And aren't oxalates dumped to the gut where they're supposed to bind with calcium and/or get broken down by bacteria? Hmmm...

beans and lentils? Anything else? My dd eats these but my son does not....is hempseed any good? That's one of the few nutritious things I can get into my son besides cheese and yogurt (only by way of smoothies). We have major feeding issues!


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.

Thanks so much for your help...that description def. fits my kids after an ES bath soak! Gotta look into vit B6...


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
beans and lentils? Anything else? My dd eats these but my son does not....is hempseed any good? That's one of the few nutritious things I can get into my son besides cheese and yogurt (only by way of smoothies). We have major feeding issues!

In plants, molybdenum is used for nitrogen fixing. A quick google looks like hemp isn't much of a nitrogen fixer so I'm guessing it wouldn't be that great of a source.


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Would this be an ok product for supplementing p5p or does it have to be by itself? Probably a stupid?? but I'm a bit lost.

http://www.ourkidsasd.com/products/v...Kirkman%20Labs


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## Panserbjorne (Sep 17, 2003)

This is totally bothering me...there's another mechanism here and I can feel it at the back of my brain and can't get it. I haven't cracked a book yet, but I will later if I continue to fail in my retrieval effort. There is something ELSE that happens when epsom salts make you go haywire. I asked another practitioner and she had a blank as well. We just stared at each other like idiots. We could both remember there was something but couldn't access it. Anyone? If I have to look it up I will....


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## Punchy Kaby (Mar 13, 2006)

I have oxalate issues as well. I get headaches and dizziness from eating foods too high in them. I recently ran out of my b-complex, I was unaware that b6 helped magnesium absorption. Is p5p better broken up through out the day? I have 50mg caplets [my bottle says 50mg P5P=30mg B6,







] It has been a long time since I did any research into oxalates, but doesn't folate [the active form L-5-MTHF] open up some pathway as well?

When I first started taking EP baths they made me feel extremely nauseous, I could tolerate only a couple tablespoons. Now I use at least a cup and take a bath several times per week. I often fall asleep immediately after while nursing DD.


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

What is P5P?


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heidirk* 
What is P5P?

Pyridoxal-5-phosphate, the most bio-available form of B6.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Punchy Kaby* 
I have oxalate issues as well. I get headaches and dizziness from eating foods too high in them. I recently ran out of my b-complex, I was unaware that b6 helped magnesium absorption. Is p5p better broken up through out the day? I have 50mg caplets [my bottle says 50mg P5P=30mg B6,







] It has been a long time since I did any research into oxalates, but doesn't folate [the active form L-5-MTHF] open up some pathway as well?

When I first started taking EP baths they made me feel extremely nauseous, I could tolerate only a couple tablespoons. Now I use at least a cup and take a bath several times per week. I often fall asleep immediately after while nursing DD.

MethylTetraHydroFolate is necessary for the methylation pathway and possibly another which I can't remember presently.


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## Punchy Kaby (Mar 13, 2006)

JR-how are you doing? I was feeling so good before I got pregnant w DD. Now I feel like I have taken many steps backward. The good thing this time around is DD is a happy, smiley baby. Smiles all the time, happy all the time. No rashes or food allergies have popped up yet (DS was already having a problem by this age.) She could sleep better, or maybe just more.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Punchy Kaby* 
JR-how are you doing? I was feeling so good before I got pregnant w DD. Now I feel like I have taken many steps backward. The good thing this time around is DD is a happy, smiley baby. Smiles all the time, happy all the time. No rashes or food allergies have popped up yet (DS was already having a problem by this age.) She could sleep better, or maybe just more.

That's actually how I was with DS2- felt great before and like I was on the brink of death after. DS3 has brought no noticeable change, except that I think I'm still recovering from HG and have good and bad days. Starving for 6 months is bound to have some kind of effect on a person's health.
DS3 is a smiley, happy baby unless I eat dairy. I think he has another trigger as well, but I haven't been food journaling in order to figure it out.


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
This is totally bothering me...there's another mechanism here and I can feel it at the back of my brain and can't get it. I haven't cracked a book yet, but I will later if I continue to fail in my retrieval effort. There is something ELSE that happens when epsom salts make you go haywire. I asked another practitioner and she had a blank as well. We just stared at each other like idiots. We could both remember there was something but couldn't access it. Anyone? If I have to look it up I will....

The sulfate stirring up toxins?

Does the oxalate connection go the other way - if there's no bad reaction (or no reaction at all) to the epsom salts, then there's no oxalate issue? Not that I'd expect it to be that simple, but one can hope...


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
Thanks for your input! Does supplementing your son w/B6 actually allow him to tolerate higher doses of mag? How does a 2.5 yo have high antimony levels? How was that tested for? Hope I'm not being too nosy but I know next to nothing about most of this! Any info would be much appreciated!

Sorry, forgot to come back to this thread







.

Antimony is in the flame retardants used in kids PJs, baby sleepers, and crib/bed mattresses (and carpets, furniture foam...). And little kids absorb it faster through their skin than adults. Most kids detox it fine - my little guy doesn't. (He and his sister slept on the same bed, she has no antimony load, his is 95+ percentile bad at 2 years old, diagnosed via hair test).

Based on what I've seen in the allergies forum, I'd say that anyone with a child with low mag symptoms that don't seem to turn around pretty fast with mag supps should do a hair test and look for antimony. To give you some idea, I need to give my son about 300mg a day of mag (spread out in 4 doses), along with about 15-20mg a day of p5p (active b6, also spread out into 4 doses), to keep his low mag symptoms at bay. And that's just what he gets direct, he also get some through my breastmilk (he still nurses plenty).

I can give my son as much mag as I want, and it will be next to useless (he'll still have low mag symptoms) without the b6. Antimony inhibits the body utilizing mag (it gets into the blood, but can't get absorbed into cells where it is needed). B6 helps mag get into the cells. So generally for us, he runs out of b6 before he runs out of mag. But they work together really synergistically.


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Thank-you so much for clarifying! Is diarrhea from a tiny dose of mag considered to be a symptom of low mag or a deficiency in a co-factor or both? I am going to try supp'ing w/ P5P...I bought a powder that has all the B's in it...is this ok too? Is there a way to rid the body of excess antimony?

Thanks again for your input!


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## Theloose (Aug 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 
Thank-you so much for clarifying! Is diarrhea from a tiny dose of mag considered to be a symptom of low mag or a deficiency in a co-factor or both?

First, a lot depends on the form and how well it's absorbed. My tolerance for mag oxide is really low, mag citrate is higher, and natural calm is highest. And I only really feel the effect by taking a pretty high dose of natural calm.


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## lil_miss_understood (Jul 19, 2006)

Mamafish9 is dealing with high antimony in her DS right now. She is chelating him. I'll let her tell you more about that though since I'm um... obviously not the one to talk about it.


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## mamafish9 (Jul 26, 2006)

OK, back - sorry folks, I keep forgetting to check back







.

I'm using zeolite, on an Andy Cutler type protocol - two drops every four hours for 2.5 days, then 4.5 days off. My DS is 2.5, he tested 95%+ bad for antimony levels (and arsenic was high as well, which often comes along with antimony). We did pee tests before we started the zeolite, and then a pee test during a zeolite round - and we get 10x the amount of antimony out of him using the zeolite, which is HUGE for such a small amount of zeolite. Zeolite definitely doesn't mobilize for everyone, but it definitely is for us. I can tell we're still pulling antimony because every time we're on the zeolite, his magnesium needs increase (antimony messes with magnesium).

Cutler says to pull antimony with methylation supps - methyl b12, folate, etc - basically encouraging the body to rid itself of the antimony. But my DS tends to react badly to too many methylating supps, and the antimony gets things going a lot faster for us. I want the stuff out of him, so that we're not constantly fighting low magnesium symptoms (and they may have played a role in some of the starch/carb intolerance issues we were having as well).

ETA: We're also doing a lot of supporting supps - plenty of Bs with extra P5P(active B6), C, a little fermented CLO (and a lot through me), E, butter for K, lots of fish for omega 3s, mag, and milk thistle. (He swallows capsules now, thanks be...).


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Panserbjørne* 
People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

You can certainly work on co-factors and see if that brings relief.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *aris99* 

It is interesting that my 2 eldest kids (my eldest has aspergers and my middle child is spectrum-y) are far more negatively affected by the epsom salts than my third child who actually appears soporific after her bath!

I went to a conference and listened to a presentation on Oxalates and specifically its relation to autism. It was very interesting. The magnesium should actually help the oxalate issue if taken with the meal. Taking mag citrate with a meal will allow the oxalates in the food to bind with the mag instead of storing in your body. The great energy could be a result of feeling better.....


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New_Natural_Mom* 
I went to a conference and listened to a presentation on Oxalates and specifically its relation to autism. It was very interesting. The magnesium should actually help the oxalate issue if taken with the meal. Taking mag citrate with a meal will allow the oxalates in the food to bind with the mag instead of storing in your body. The great energy could be a result of feeling better.....

An interesting point but I don't think this is it in our case. First, my son has a super limited diet and I don't think the oxalate content is that high in the foods he does eat. Second, the kind of hyperactivity I'm talking about is not simply increased energy. I can take super energetic games if kids are happily playing together, make believe games, or just have excess energy from not going outside on a rainy day....no, this is kids becoming over aggressive, combative, destructive when it is not in their nature under normal circumstances.

I *think* that the vitamin B6 may be making a difference...can someone tell me if B6 could do this? I've been giving my kids about 10 mg of p5p/day. The serving size is 35mg but I wanted to start slowly. My son is now up to about 200mg mag glycinate a day w/out diarrhea (previously even 100mg produced clear liquid diarrhea) AND I swear the epsom salt bath last night caused my 2 elder kids to become slightly *very slightly* soporific....at least he wasn't spiraling out of control. I started the B6 supplementation about a week ago could it work this fast?


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

yes, it can work that fast.


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## JaneS (Jan 11, 2003)

Any new updates?

PB, can you think of the other factor you mentioned?

I've recently started DS on epsom salts baths in AM and he's doing well. We had been doing many months of just magnesium chloride baths. He doesn't do well on oral mag. But he really needs the sulfur for food chemical intolerances so that is why I started ES.


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## aris99 (Oct 24, 2005)

I'm not PB, but I'm the OP. I started giving my ds vit B supp w/the mag. It seemed to be working but it was either a fluke that lasted for a week or something else changed and my ds again became intolerant to even the smallest amt of oral mag. I dropped the ES and went back to sea salts. My ds responds much better to these for whatever reason. We have a family history of autoimmune diseases, eczema, food allergies etc etc. My son is showing def. signs of this along w/OCD...Hope you have better luck w/the ES than we did!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

wrong thread.


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## TwoTotsandMe (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm late to this question...by 8 years. ha! But I thought I'd share this because I found it very helpful.

http://www.feingold.org/DOCS/EpsomSalts.pdf‎


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