# I vowed to never hit



## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

My dad was pretty abusive to all of us 5 kids. He whipped us with the belt at least twice a week and he would use the buckle when he was real mad. He would kick us or pull our hair when the belt was not handy. He would call us names. I was called spoiled rotten snot, brat, fat, etc...even bitch once. My earliest memory of dad whippin me was when I was 5. But I know it was much before that. My brother and I were fighting and my mom sent us to bed and said wait till dad gets home. We shared a room and waited for like 3 hours for him to get home from the restaurant that he ran. All of a sudden, I said, "Frank let's put on more pajamas and underwear so it won't hurt as much." So we put on a bunch of underwear and pajamas and when he came home he could see our fat butts and told us too pull down our pants which he made us do until we were 18 years old. He would say, "BEAR YOUR ASS!"I also remember when I was 4 and Frank was 3 he cried when he got a spanking and I remember dad saying he was faking it so he gave it to him harder and said I will give you something to cry about. I remember a babysitter asking me once if I was afraid of him and I said no cuz I was afraid what would happen if he knew I was afraid. I was petrified of him.

My biggest pain was that my mom was not there for us. She did not protect us, I have no memories of her holding me, brushing my hair, telling me I am good, pretty, loved etc. I have done my share of healing through therapy etc...and have forgiven my dad. He was even more abused by his mother and even though he was horrible to us at times, he still told me he loved me and I felt loved by him. And he had a beautiful conversion before he died. He sobbed and sobbed and asked for my forgiveness and told me how sorry he was and how much he loved me and how wonderful I was.

I still have a lot of anger towards my mom, as she is still emotionally unavailable for me and is rejecting of me as a woman. That is my biggest hurt from childhood, not feeling loved by her.

Anyway I have this beautiful, perfect precious two year old that I was never gonna hit etc...and I have. I have slapped his hand about four times, slapped his thigh once, slapped him on the cheek once and squeezed his cheeks once. I feel bad about all of this. I have talked to friends. I don't know want to do this. But I have slipped into it. I thought about using a fake user name cuz I am afraid of being misunderstood but I decided that I would rather get help with this than have people like me.

He is two and he has tantrums and he hits me at least 40 times a day. He is wonderful and sweet too. I have never really hurt him of course but I have read all the SEARS stuff etc...that says it can only grow. So like what will I do when he is five?

This is the bottom line.

*I do not want to hit Charlie or our new baby on the way and no matter what they will grow up knowing they are loved by their mommy and daddy.







*


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Kathy, my heart goes out to you. We have all had our less than perfect moments. I don't strike my children, but due to the shear volume in my house, I often find myself yelling to get their attention. It's not working and I need to find a new way. I commend you for posting and asking for help.

This may sound silly, but it works for me. I used to teach preschool, and I often watch my friends children. What I found is that I am much more patient and respectful when other people's children misbehave under my care. I get down on their level and talk to them rationally. I am empathetic, loving, respectful. We brainstorm solutions together and work things out. Then one day as I was calmly disciplining my friends son, I realized that it was working so much better with him than my own children. The I realized how much different my approach was with him than with my own children.

Now, when I feel like I am about to lose my cool, I take a few seconds to calm down, then I pretend that my son isn't my son. I know it sounds silly, but if I pretend that he is someone else's child I am able to get into that focus and deal with him/them much more effectively.

I wish you the best of luck in your parenting journey, and the next time you feel that urge to slap, imagine what you would do if this was someone else's child rather than your own, and notice how different your reaction will be.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

I cried for like a half n hour and still am after I posted. Thank you for your warmth and I do like your idea.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

When I'm about to go over the edge--grab an arm too hard, yell, scream, whatever--about 75% of the time I think, "What will Ben say about me as a mother when he's a grown man? What will his memories of this be?"

That stops me cold most of the time.

And when I DO lose my cool, I always apologize now.


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## spryte (Jan 27, 2002)

kaje62- Hugs. You should be so proud of yourself for asking for help and being brave enough to make a change.

I agree with jbcjmom- I too find that sometimes if I take a moment to pretend that I am in public or that my child is someone else's, my voice is quieter, and even sometimes firmer, kind of matter of fact. When I don't give myself those few seconds I find my volume is higher and my tone is annoyed. My dd does not react well when I speak to her in that fashion.

I have occasionally yelled at my dh or dd. When I do- if I give myself a time- out, it has really helped me re-inforce my calmer approach.


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## mamarsupial (Mar 20, 2002)

i second spryte's statement that this took tremendous courage. asking for help is not an easy thing, and by doing so you are showing how much you love your child.









i have also have felt myself losing my cool. i call them 'plate smashing days' since i feel the urge to get out our dinner ware and chuck it at trees in our backyard. while i have never felt an urge to hit, and have never literally smashed plates, i have certainly felt like screaming out of shear frustration and exhaustion. when i get to that point, i put dd in a safe place (our bed, her crib, her high chair) and sit on the stairs, take deep breaths, sometimes i cry...until the frustration wanes. i can go back to her with calm in my heart.

thank you for being so brave and vulnerable. no one said being a mama would be easy, and surely it is not. you need to grieve over what has happened, but in talking about it here and with friends, hopefully you will get passed this.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

I have been exactly where you are and have done the same things you have and have been so ashamed inside.......I am constantly working on it.

I do find that pretending that they are other peoples kids 'in that moment' does help. In fact, as I am coming back into my religion, I printed out a full sheet sign that reads "They are God's Children' and put it on my fridge to reminde me to treat them as such, espically on 'those days' It does help.

Please know that you are not alone, I too have cryed and hated myself over what I have done - but I must move on and be a better mother and I know I am well on my way. Let's just be here for each other!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I have been where you are too, and amazingly, it was during my 2nd pregnancy that I found myself changing. You at least KNOW how you want to be! Even my goals were so elusive at that point. But my 2nd pregnancy really made me want to pin things down in terms of discipline.

Basically 2 things helped me.
- The first was making a comittment to my son in words he could understand that there would be no more hitting. I tried to take it as seriously as my wedding vows.
- The second was exhausting every resource to find better discipline tools. Books especially, but I found one friend who uses GD and it was helpful for me to watch and learn from her. It so much easier NOT to hit when you have other strategies at your finger-tips to try instead. And then, eventually, they become 2nd nature and the urge to hit pretty much goes away, or at least -- it mostly did for me.

I'm glad you posted, and I'm glad you used your reg. username. You should not feel at all ashamed to talk to us about this. This is why we are here.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

I have to thank all of you and to you local mamas who know me for your love, friendship, support and understanding. This is very hard for me to open up about all of this. At first I felt really good and then I think I feel a little shame or something tonite. I am sure it will pass. Sometimes I feel yucky just sharing what childhood was like. Anyway you are all wonderful. Thank you.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

You are a very brave woman and I felt incredibly sad reading about your treatment as a youngster. I cannot imagine how humiliating and terrifying your childhood was. Living a life of fear everyday is something that I cannot even fathom.

None of us are perfect. All of us lose our cool. Your children will forgive your imperfections.

I have never hit my child but I sure have had wanted to on occasion. It hurts to admit that but it is definitely true. On the times when I have been really tempted, I have left the room and put myself in a time out by locking myself in the bathroom.

It's very, very important to try and get adequate sleep. My patience level when I am well-rested is much greater than when I am sleep-deprived. Make it a priority to get as much rest as possible. That really is my best advice!

Good luck to you.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Kaje62, I experienced things very similar to you except it was my mother who was in charge of discipline in our house.

I think the important thing is to make a conscience effort to avoid repeating the pattern. Each time one spanks makes it that much easier the next time. Many abusive situations are about anger and losing control.

I would try and not blame your mother. Your father was obviously a very controlling person and she may not have been able to stand up to him.

Forgiveness is a big part of growing up, you must let go of your anger..I know it is easier said than done but it won't do you any good to hold onto those feelings you will feel much better for it.

I learned many years ago to get over what happened, I know some of it had to do with medical problems going on at the time and I know how hard she had it herself growing up.

It is very painful to face what led them down the path to abusing their own children, and it really takes a lot to let go of it all and begin to take control of the patterns that such abuse causes.

I am working with teaching my own child that hitting hurts and mustn't be done but if I did hit her it would only teach her that it is ok and it would all start all over again.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

In my heart of hearts I believe my mother was mistreated but I have such a hard timing finding compassion for her but I will work on it.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Kathy-jo,

It is very hard to be a good parent. It takes willpower and strength. There are days that are worse then others. When we got pregnant, no-one told us about the terrible two's, when even GD doesn't work on some of our kids. The fact that you know every time you have hit or sqeezed your child tells me something. If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't know it all by heart. You are not your father. You are not your mother. You are a wonderful mother who loves her son. It is hard work to be a good mother.

When H was about 14 months old, she wouldn't stop crying and I had heard over and over again that you should throw water in their face, so I was washing the dishes and she was standing in the kitchen screaming at me and I took the sponge that I was washing the dishes with and sqeezed it all over her. She was sopping wet. It did no good and it was very abusinve behavior. I swore never again would I do that. When K was born, H hit her in the face and I hit H's hand hard. It left a mark. And I have spanked her once on the butt. After each time, I have swore never to do it again, and right now I can say that I never would do it again. But I am not raging or angry. All I can do is try new things (like whispering to her, instead of screaming). You have to take it one day at a time and know that you are doing the best that you can do. And you need to be able to forgive yourself for past mistakes and trust that they won't happen again.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

KJ, I had two lengthy replies that got lost???

I'll drop an email. So sorry for what has happened. You did the right thing by reaching out.


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## zombiemommie (Dec 6, 2001)

I will come back later, I read your post yesterday and couldn't respond and i cannot lengthily right now but I did want to send you hugs and tell you that I am where you are right now myself, I just had dd #2, ds is 2 1/2 and I have lost it several times recently and hit him, slapping him once on the cheek in particular that made me want to vomit, and I have grabbed cheeks more times then I want to remember similar to what you describe, and I hate myself for it. Pregnancy was SOOO hard on me. It was almost biochemical like a change pushing me away from him when he needed me most. It hurts me to think how he must feel when I do this to him. I recently ordered from Amazon several books on positive discipline to help me. He is so sweet and gentle and sensitive and I love him with all my heart and I don't want to be this way. He is quite "spirited" and sometimes gets the better of me and my patience, but I have never hit him until this baby arrived. I also read your other post about the holding to sleep and I did thta with him when he was younger and I too questioned where to draw the line on that one. Which is another reason I wanted to post. Anyway I was raised in an extremely dysfunctional household. Maybe we can work on this together, or at least keep in touch by email or something if we are having a particularly terrible day. Don't be ashamed, this is a wonderful board. If I don't get back please email me [email protected] - my dd is almost 6 wks old, nrursing alot and both are sick ds with ear infection and dd with cold so I may not be back for awhile.

(((Hugs))) to you


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## smeta (Dec 15, 2001)

Hugs to you KJ. Please don't feel ashamed. You are so strong for reaching out to all of us for help!

I was also spanked as a child, but I would not consider it anything like what you went through. Anyway, it still made spanking almost instinctive, since that's how I was disciplined. I remember spanking kids I babysat for as a teenager, but I have only playfully spanked Cora once and I do not want to do it again. When I get frustrated I feel like I want to bite her little cheeks off! Sometimes I nibble at her in a playful way that makes her laugh and relives some of my frustration. I don't know if that's bad or not, but surely there are better ways of dealing with it.

It sounds like you are really frustrated with Charlie hitting you and maybe that makes you want to hit him. I would continually tell him that it is not nice to hit and it hurts you and hurts your feelings and ask him to use words instead of his body. I know he probaby cannot communicate fully w/ words, but maybe just reinforcing that will help overtime.


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

Hi KJ64

I had a childhood about on par if not worse than the abuse you describe. As a result I have been watching myself with my now 14 month DD and waiting for me to turn into the monsters my parents both were to us. It hasn't happened, but I am waiitng for it to pop out of me just like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. I keep wondering when that day will come and I am afraid of it, almost like the abuse I went through has to come out in me out of sheer genetics.

It helps to read up here in GD. I apologize if someone has already discussed ths but I would like to see your list of GD books. I have never spanked or slapped DD and want to never do that ever - no matter how badly she may push my buttons. When I say No to her forcefully I wonder if I am abusing her.

Anyway thanks for this thread. I definitely believe we should never hit or throw water on our kids or humiliate them in any way. I would lieketo do whatever necessary to make sure I never snap and do the nasty things my parents did.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks Jessica and all once again.

I have done a lot of therapy and did Adult Children of Dysfunctional Familys for 8 years. I worked on loving and reparenting my inner child.

I learned slogans
Hurt People Hurt People
We are all Victims of Victims
As children we are victims, as adults we are volunteers

I have worked a lot on my own hurt
so that I don't hurt

And that is why I choose to come out of the closet and share more of my hurt and struggle
so I can come clean

But today a hard day. I don't mean like I wanted to hit him. I just felt really down and not like a good mom.
He was so cute yesterday the sun was shining etc.
Today was cloudy with war in the air.
We went to a local coffee shop to celebrate with 6 other mama's
at a kid friendly coffee shop and a huge play area.
He had a horrible temper tantrum over a monster MM cookie. It lasted 35 minutes.
The owner asked us all to leave. He said it was distracting other people in the place.
He said, "I know it is hard to be a stay at home mom but this is not the place to come when your child is acting out.
Anyway it was horrible.
I sobbed came home and tried to get a grip.
I just felt like I am so unloveable. Don't know why I felt that way.

We had a fun night.
We went to a Japenese steak house and it was so great. Charlie got lots of attention from the people we sat with. He loved watching the chef cook in front of us. They gave me a huge fried ice cream sundae and they took a polaroid that turned out great!! And then he konked out on the way home so he is sleeping and I can relax a bit. But DH has the war on, so depressing it started today!!! But we had fun tonite and I am going to bed happy. And he is my sunshine!!


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by kaje62_
*He said, "I know it is hard to be a stay at home mom but this is not the place to come when your child is acting out.
Anyway it was horrible.
I sobbed came home and tried to get a grip.
I just felt like I am so unloveable. Don't know why I felt that way.
*
Um. Maybe you felt that way because this guy was really rude. I would have cried, too! Doesn't sound too kid-friendly to me.

Anyway, I think you have a ton of courage to come out of the closet, so to speak. I have hit V on the leg about five times out of frustration. The last time she looked at me so surprised and said in the most sad voice, "Owie?"

We just found out she has a hearing loss and her temper tantrums are directly related to her inability to communicate (she also has a speech delay because of the hearing loss).
Can you say BAD MAMA??? It is good to know that her hearing loss has caused the speech delay, and I feel validated that our frustrations are justified--and I feel terrible for all of the times I have said, "you need to LISTEN to mama!"

My point is that we do the best we can and it sounds like you are doing a fantastic job. When I get to the point I want to lash out, I have to remember that it NEVER makes the situation better. That I need a time-out from her. I have also relied on mantras:

She is only two.
My love is stronger than my anger or fear.
What will she remember about me?

And sometimes it means she goes in her room with the door closed and I have a time-out.

I see that you have a new one on the way. I don't want to scare you but I need to be honest with you: the frustration you feel now might be doubled or tripled when the new baby comes. I can only speak from my experience, but I have had a very very hard time dealing with my own impatience and exhaustion and that compounds my frustration levels with my dd. If you can do work now to help you cope with that, please do.

Jesse


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

kathy jo and all the other mothers who have posted! You are not alone.

I was also severely abused (not disciplined) as a child. I can't even talk about it right now, I just don't have the energy.

Anyway, I swore I would never hit or be abusive and slowly and my son because more challenging (or I felt challenged) abusive and punitive behavior crept into my life.

I regret very few things in my life, but I absolutely regret ever harming my son.

I have made a committment to meditate every hour on the hour, so that I stay focused and not spiral into rage over trivial stuff.

Here are the things that are helping me:

Reading: Everyday Blessing: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting. Check out the discussion over in the books forum. This book has reall helped.

I've read every gentle dscipline book. And now I am referencing them on an as need basis.

Try to work to find a "yes" with your kid. I am letting some things go. i was really restrictive with TV time, I'm just letting it go a for a while, so that we can repair our relationship a bit. With a 4month old baby, I need to be able to really focus on making my ds (who is almost 3) feel that our life isn't so micromanaged.

Hank in there...and just really focus on staying present and remembering the most important thing is to take care of your child...


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## chapulina (Feb 18, 2003)

it has been soo helpful to me personally reading all of your replies - and a very pertinent thread for many of us. I struggle with managing anger, feel/felt unloved by my mother, was abused as a child, and struggle with not treating by dd the same way. The anger scale that someone wrote about is something I'm going to personally implement.

Hang in there with your struggles; you ARE a good mommy, or you wouldn't even reflect on what you're doing. I feel for all your pain and pray that you will continue to heal and help your children. How exciting for us mothers that we have our own chance to impact the future for the better! Remember, the time is short. God bless!


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## cattrane (Dec 2, 2001)

(((kj)))

you have a lot of great suggestions to help *you* deal with cha's hitting and your instinctive response when you're strung out and exhausted and frustrated as heck.

here's my perspective on hitting in general ~
when our kids are angry and hit us, we do not immediately assume they are horrible people ~ we explain that when we are very angry and frustrated, our bodies build up lots of energy that has to come OUT ~
there is a very real physical need when we are upset to lash out ~ before humans were verbal, if you had a hunk of meat and someone tried to take it from you, darn sure you'd punch 'em, it's a matter of survival!

look at how ALL KIDS have to be TAUGHT not to hit, our first instinct as humans is to strike, compassion is learned.

for me, if i was in your place, i would be concerned more about the effect of my history on charlie than i would the actual hitting itself, if that makes any sense. like, the vibes you give off, and how you emotionally respond after hitting him are probably very different than if you weren't conscious and aware of the horrible parts of your upbringing; and then i'd be wondering if even the slightest raising my voice would be a trigger for the cycle to continue, you know? (even though it's not!! i would probably be paranoid like that!)

the trick for me is to identify my breaking point, and literally memorize the phrases that i use as a tool to break out of it and at the same time explain to ds ~ for example if charlie is continuing to hit after you've tried to dissuade the behavior, get down on his level and say 'charlie i am frustrated that you are still hitting me. i am now getting angry because i don't know how to help you not to hit right now, when i get angry sometimes i am scared that i will hit you back, and hitting is wrong, and it hurts. so right now i am going to take a time out and calm down. i will be in the bathroom with the door shut for five minutes, you can stay right outside the door and you will be safe, and i will come back out in five minutes when i feel safe.'

i had my spiel whittled down to about four sentences, but the main thing was that i did the exact same thing every time. the first few times i went in the bathroom ds was screaming and banging the door but after that he understood that when i'm pissed i don't feel like i can be safe and not scream, etc, and we would talk about our 'time outs' at other times when we both were calm. now ds does the same thing, verbally explains that he's mad and recognizes that he needs to be by himself to calm down.

:LOL it's basically using the exact same discipline techniques for our kiddos on ourselves

the point of all that LOL is to talk talk talk about the ENTIRE process with charlie, talk about it in the car, talk about it when you're happy, talk about it when you're sad, explain why you're sad -- it sounds like overkill but every time we get the idea of gentle reactions to stressful situations in our kids' heads, we are reprogramming the natural urge to hit, and helping them to create their own gentle coping skills.

have you read Becoming the Parent you Want to Be?? great, great, great book, gives excellent examples of specific verbage to say in a lot of different situations of toddler violence (like hitting, biting, hitting between playmates etc) ~ i just lent my copy to someone, but i know the libraries have a couple of copies.


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## cattrane (Dec 2, 2001)

oh i also wanted to chime in with the thought that it will be much, much harder with two kiddos. the sheer stress factor of just feeding/changing/sleeping/nursing two on top of lack of sleep is crazymaking!

i'd start talking to dh now about the fact that you are gonna need lots of help for at least the first six months, as much sleep and water and b vites as possible









it seems like a lot of families end up kinda working shifts for the first few months until the new baby settles into the family routine ~ like you nurse/sleep/wake up hehe all night while dh deals with getting ds to bed.

this post probably isn't very encouraging at all







but i also wanted to throw out the idea that after the new wee one is born charlie may have a period of more hitting and tantrums, he's at the right age to be really hard anyhow, since he's *just* at the point of knowing what he wants to say but not quite able to express it and turning to hitting instead. add in the changes to routine after the new one, and he *might* backtrack a little bit.

that said, if you can establish a very monotone, boring consistent routine with how you deal with tantrumming now it may help later as well. you may even consider tweaking your day to day routine now to match what you think it might be like with the new baby ~ and again work on recruiting dh hehe


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Cattrane how can someone be so smart, compassionate, witty, resourceful and gorgeous in one person???

Thank you!!

And to the rest of you too. You are all so so great!!!


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

He woke up an hour early today. Crabby!!! He weaned about 8 days ago and I sometimes think his crabbiness etc. is related to weaning. Anyway he hit me like 30 times this morning and finally I took his hand and made him hit himself in the face. And then he go madder and hit me more, more more. So finally I slapped him. Now I feel like shit. It did not do any good. I am having a bad bad day and ashamed to report this.


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## zombiemommie (Dec 6, 2001)

((((((((((mega hugs to you))))))))))))

I had a really really bad day yesterday. Hang in there.


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Oh hon, please hang in there. You can do this!! You know it doesn't work. I think you need other tricks for your bag.

Can I suggest putting somewhere, like his room, while you take a "time-out"? Somewhere he's safe but can't get to you for a few minutes. Maybe removing yourself when you're right in the thick of it will help. Your son will also learn this as a method of dealing with frustration, which will benefit you both!

I see you slapped him as a last resort, which is a long way from spanking as policy. One day, one situation at a time. Keep going, I have faith in you. Many







s.


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## spryte (Jan 27, 2002)

kaje-








you are doing your best and each day you will do better.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

I have been diving into Sears etc. reading Chapter 12, The Discipline Book. I think it was Ms. Mom that recommended that to me. I also ordered Mindful Parenting.

I have read in Sears that you can tell if a kid is afraid of you when you raise your hand and the duck. I can guarantee that is not the case with Charlie and that makes me grateful. And I never want it to come to that.

I have realized that the only time I have touched him is when he has kicked or hit me repeatedly.

So I have done a couple mommy go bye bye for a minute if you hit me again and left the room. He does cry and hate it but it seems to work. Is that okay?

The other thing that I am realizing is maybe I do not give him enough discipline, structure, guidelines, limits and that really bums me out. I have been pretty laid back and now am wondering if I am living with some consequences. Is it too late??


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Mommy time outs are great and a good way of teaching your child how to handle frustration and anger. It's good to talk out-loud - like:

"mommy is feeling frustrated because you are hitting me. Hitting hurts. I am going to take a minute to breathe. I'll be right back."

then when you come back - have a talk - some Time In just the two of you - some cuddling.

I know what you mean about starting late with setting limits. It is never to late to start some consistency. I didn't really start until ds was 2 and it was a struggle at first.

I think the key is to not get emotional while setting limits. Because they will challenge the boundary that you are setting, it is easy to get angry and to think that your "discipline" isn't working. The key is to stay calm, to not feed into their chaos and to be firm, but loving.

For example - if you don't want them going into the street without holding hands, then you just say that - "We hold hands while in the street." With my son, he would go stand at the curb and look at me, then step into the street.

So I would pick him up and say, "You are showing me that you are not ready to be in the front yard. We hold hands while in the street."

Then I would take him back home. Sometimes he would kick and scream - but the rule is the rule. It is hard not to react to their emotional outburst with your own anger. It is really hard. Stay calm. It's their job to test the boundaries. It's your job to provide loving guidence and firm bourndaries.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Iguanavere,

wow thank you, that all is so great.

what book did you get all those ideas out of?
and I just realized that you are the one that recommended mindul parenting. does it matter what edition 1997? 2000???

and have you seen a thread on limits etc??

I would love more input and help with this.

THANK YOU!


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Kathy Jo - i want to give you a really detailed response, but I have to run out the door right now.

i will post later today - because I have many thoughts about this! Talk soon!


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Ok Kathy Jo - strap in - this is going to be bumpy!

So first off, I should acknowledge that all of the most amazing info that I ver got started with Mothering Magazine. There was an article about discipline back in 97 that Dr. Sears wrote that really helped me start seeing things. And I didn't even have a baby until 2000!

Then the Motheringdotcommune has been totally helpful in educating me about parenting in a gentle fashion. All of the info that I am about to impart to you, I got from these boards, Mothering Magazine or LLL.

On Gentle Discipline I really like the following:

The Discipline Book by Sears & Sears - great for a balanced approach to gentle discipline.

Kids Are Worth It: Giving Your Child the Gift of inner Discipline by Barbara Coloros - great for theory behind why extrinsic motivation doesn't work and how to instil intrinsic motivation - this book is a must read and helpful in understanding hom to be a film and loving parent without giving in (being permissive) or stopming all over your kid (being authoritarian.) It's really great, but doesn't have a lot of info on how to help you during the toddler, pre-verbal stage when you are really frustrated.

Positive Discipline - there is a whole series of these books that I love. These books don't fully support the family bed or extended nursing (they pay lip service, but seem to discourage it.) Still I found the foundation of the theory to be the same as Kids Are Worth It, but more toddler friendly. It gives practical solutions on how to handle irritating toddler behavior, without being punitive.

Without Spanking or Spoiling (can't remember authors name) - this is a great workbook type book that is similar to Positive Discipline. When I first got this book I didn't think it was very useful. When DS was 2.5 I found it to be really useful and wished I had paid closer attention to it sooner. The authors talk about a lot of PET (parent effectiveness training) stuff and this book is easier to read than the PET books.

Raising Your Spirited Child by Kurcinka - amazing - i reference this book about once a month (because I have a spirited child.) She also wrote another great book, which I've perused, but not read called Kids, Parents & Power Struggles.

My Pediatrician is Jay Gordon and he is the one who said to me that I just needed to be consistent, set the limit and follow through. I remember - I was struggling with getting ds to sleep and I asked him how to get him to stay in bed - he said if he comes out, just walk him back into the bedroom and you just do that over and over again until he gets the message that it's time for bed. I still lay with ds or stay in the room until he falls asleep.

OK - I'm rambling - it's late and I need to get some sleep. I don't know if this has helped...I haven't seen the other thread, but I'll go check it out before I crash!


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## Alstrameria (Sep 8, 2002)

Hi kaje62, I am so happy you are having some good days!!

I just wanted to say that I don't think it's important to have many rules/limits etc. as long as the ones you do set are consistent. There's not a lot we don't *allow* dd to do, but when we do set guidelines, we put a lot of thought into it and it sticks. I don't like when she gets upset about it, but one day I realized that I can be the bad mommy who says "water in the sink honey" AND the good mommy who hugs and comforts her because she couldn't throw water on the floor. That was weird at first but it's really handy.

I've even said "I know you're mad about not being able to stand on the table. You know, I'm mad too." which made me laugh and for a minute I could step outside myself and see it from her perspective. It's hard being small!

Anyway, it's late and I'm going on, but I wanted to say "yay for YOU".

Jen


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks all for your support. You all are just great.

Today I was carrying him out of music class and he grabbed two fist fulls of my hair real near my scalp and was pulling like crazy. I kept screaming stop and then he grabbed my glasses and threw them in the street. I was mad but not tempted to hit and it hurt my scalp really bad. And it bummed me out and then I remembered I am not suppose to yell. I am to remain calm. Goll this is can be so hard.

And realize this little guy is great and I have many wonderful days.


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

Kathy and all you other mamas with challenges, many hugs to you for working so hard to give your children what they deserve.

Iguanavere mentioned Without Spanking or Spoiling. It is by Elizabeth Crary. I love that book and everything else she has written. What I really like about these books is how much Crary stresses being aware of developmental stages. It really, really, really helps me to be reminded that whatever my 2 or 4 or 6 or whatever-year-old is doing is common for children that age.

The Gesell Institute books are great for this too. They have a series of books, each about a certain age -- Your One Year Old, Your Two Year Old, Your Three Year Old, etc. Ignore most of their dated and misguided advice (for discipline, breastfeeding, solids, sleeping, toilet training, etc.), and read them only for their excellent research of child development stages. Your Two Year Old was pretty much what got me through the very difficult stage of having a two-year-old and a new baby at the same time. Libraries usually have these books, and they are often available in used book stores as well. I repeat though, do not read these for advice. Read them for understanding.

But back to Crary -- her books are excellent in part because of their stress on developmental abilities, but also because they offer very practical and gentle advice to parents of toddlers and preschoolers.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

First, I applaud all of the honesty on this thread, it is great to know so many moms who are trying so hard to do right by their babies/children, instead of defending their spanking, as the right thing to do.

I have not had any real issues with my children hitting to the extent that you have, but when I was a preschool teacher I had a student diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, not implying in anyway that your son has this, just that this child hit a lot, teachers, other kids, etc. So, here's what we did with her. we had a special "hold" for her when she went into one of her "tantrums". You sit on the floor with your legs out in a v-shape. You put the child in front of you sitting, his/her back to your front, next you put your legs criss-crossed over their legs, then you use one arm to hold both of their arms, you use the other arm to hold the child's head in a way that doesn't allow them to bite you. Then you sing softly or hum in their ear (if they respond well to that), and you keep them in the "hold" until they calm down. This obviously wont be a great option when your nursing the new baby, and maybe not in the late months of pregnancy, but it is a good way to be able to help your child gain control, without having to leave them. It shows love and attention.

Another option would be to give him something that is ok to hit, like a large pillow, or one of those blown-up sand bottomed "boxing" toys KWIM?

As far as keeping your cool, I know that can be so hard, just keep reminding your self that you can find other ways to deal with this, come on the boards with each new problem that makes you want to hit, and ask for GD ways to handle it.

I say 5 Hail Mary's, but I'm one of those crazy catholics







. Seriously, it really helps to remind me of what motherhood should be, and how God expects me to parent. Use your own religious/spiritual thought/prayers to help you through.

Patty


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

I just have to say that this thread has been sooo helpful to me!
I don't have a toddler yet, but I'm sure I will find it just as challenging as you ladies have.
My DS was not going down at his normal time (he's 8 months) and I found myself getting so frustrated with him! I count on those few hours I have between his bedtime and mine to have "personal Mommy time" and it really irked me that he wasn't allowing me to have that. I finally had to just take some deep breaths and try to remember that he wasn't making me mad on purpose. He wasn't sleepy! How would I feel if I was wide awake in a dark room, wondering where Mom was?

kaje62- you said that you noticed that the only time you touch your DS is when you are angry. Have you tried some happy-time cuddling? Do you think he may be hitting to have a way to have physical contact? Sort of like the kid who does bad stuff because they want attention, even if it's negative attention?
I don't want to step on your toes there, just thought I'd throw that out there though.

Edited to add- If I'm way off-base there, please forgive me!


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

When I said touch I meant in a not good way.

We cuddle, co-sleep, tickle, nestle, spoon, rub, cradle all the time!!!


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

kaje62- I was pretty sure you did snuggling, but just wanted to be sure!

It is so hard to keep a cool head. I can only imagine how much harder it's going to be when he's older!
Take care!


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## RainCityMama (Nov 28, 2001)

Just wanted to chime in here and say "I UNDERSTAND!" I have a 3 1/2 year old and a 6 month old and let's face it this mommy business is HARD WORK and takes so much patience









I have had to and still do struggle with my anger, I start to get so worked up at some of the off-the-wall shenanigans my son pulls and it takes all my energy to try and bring myself down some days. So far the only thing that has worked for me is thinking about how badly I *know* I would fee if I actually acted on my anger







I also look at my son and in the midst of feeling so mad at him I try really hard to see his innocence, for some reason it puts me back in the frame of refference that I am his protector - that may sound really corny but it has worked for me.

I think everyone has given you such awesome advice so far and I'm not sure I really have anything incredibly insightful to add *BUT* just wanted to let you know that I respect your wanting to talk about this and you are not alone in your pursuit of a better way to deal with your anger


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Yesterday while putting Charlie in the cart at Whole Foods, he bit me really hard on the shoulder. I have a bruise and a scab. It was the worse bite I have ever gotten from him and he really has not bitten me for quite awhile. I am really bummed about it. And I put him down in the middle of the cart quite quickly as he screamed bloody murder. It seemed like 7 ladies were staring at me like I was a bad mom. I went to the produce section and started crying and Charlie kept asking what happened mama? Pretty hard day. I don't know if it was the right thing to do but I made a production out of it when I showed DH and my friend who came over last night in front of Charlie and DH went to kiss my owie and Charlie inisisted no I kiss and he kissed it before we went to bed. I hope that is not shaming or anything. We reminded him no bite only kiss and hugs a few times also. Anyone have any pointers, I mean tips for me???


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

Again, I have no direct experience with this, but I think what you did was the right thing to do. He bit you, you got hurt and cried (as I would have too), he doesn't seem to get the message that biting you hurts you, so I think you've moved to the next logical step in REALLY letting him know that he's hurting you and that's going to make you sad and others empathize with you. It sounds like a good step that he wanted to kiss the owie too.
I know it's hard, but try not to let what others think of you at stores and things bother you. Just imagine some of the awful, abusive things witnessed at places like that- and you are far, far from that! Here's a thread with some examples: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=54074









Marcy


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

It's about how to deal with your anger when your children "push your butons".

http://www.msnbc.com/news/900667.asp

Kudos to the Today Show for doing something very empathetic...


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## elismom (Dec 3, 2001)

I think you did just the right thing w/the biting situation!! I've learned from so many great moms on these boards that the best thing to do is a) don't make a big production out of the act to the biter/hitter (that is, don't spend so much time on "don't hit/bite, because negative attention is still attention) and b) spend much time showing empathy to the person being bit/hit (in this case you), make a big deal about that, etc., so that the child learns empathy by your actions. I've had a hard time acting on these, esp the first one, but I've heard it works and it sounds like you really did this well! I have a hitter/biter too, and I know it is so hard to deal with! Good luck and hang in there!


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

wow that makes sense. thanks.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

would love your input on this

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...threadid=56492


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Hi... I just wanted to recommend some books:

SMART LOVE: The Compassionate Alternative to Discipline that Will Make You a Better Parent and Your Child a Better Person by







Pieper & Pieper
Absolutely EXCELLENT. THe writers are psychologists with many, many years of treating children... they basically offer the parent examples of how to PROPERLY REACT/RESPOND without damaging the child. (Because when we do slip up - nobody is perfect - it does hurt them.) From babyhood, toddlerhood, onwards. That's so helpful, because as we all know, even toddlers need gentle discipline!

GIVING THE LOVE THAT HEALS: a guide for parents by Harville Hendrix.
I'm reading this now. He says that we have the worst times with kids... as it matches the time we were hurt the most by our parents. Things they do set us off... it's not the child's fault. WE ARE PROJECTING something onto them. *It's our responsibility to "wake up" and start parenting consciously, rather than unconsciously.* Most appealing is his theory that focusing on figuring this out will also help our healing.

KID COOPERATION: How to Stop the Yelling, Nagging and Pleading and Get Kids to Cooperate by Elizabeth Pantley is the next book on my shopping list.

I've had moments of uncontrollable anger towards my son.







Nothing horrible has happened, but I have acted in ways that surprise (and horrify)







me. (Until recently (explored in therapy) my personal issue was that I don't really get in touch with my anger. I smother it. Then, later... I act numb towards my son. I underreacted when he was in harms way. Why? Because it's a form of masked aggression. If I let the anger pass through my body in the first place (doesn't mean I have to "act" on it) then things would be better.

My first problem was discipline... HOW do I do it??? I'm getting better at it, thanks to friends, books, but most important, giving myself permission to gently discipline (rather than no discipline at all.)

Second huge issue for me is *anger... I tend to OVERREACT... lose my temper.* Now that I am aware that burying my anger is not a good thing (at all) I focus on feeling my anger at the moment. I don't lash out at him horribly (like slap him into Wednesday) but that is the urge I have. But what the hell is going on! *Why* am I reacting so strongly???? Why do certain behaviors set me off????























The other day I did something that I felt really bad about. He was taking too long brushing







his teeth (exploring this or that.... totally normal behavior on his part) and I was just short on patience. I wanted him to rinse his mouth and go to bed already. So I took the cup and rinsed his mouth without his permission. (It was an act of aggression on my part.) He cried horribly.







I hurt his feelings... I stepped all over his boundaries.







I then felt bad and apologized.

Hendrix would remind me that a) the kid is acting normally b) something in me (memory?) is being triggered c) I should spend time focusing on WHAT it is and try to work on that rather than reacting. I just started the book... I'm sure it gets better.

*Hydrangea* - I'll look into Gesell's books. Thanks for the recommendation. Hendrix recommends the same thing.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Hi Kaje~and others.

How are things going?

Thanks to all of you who posted candidly about your parenting issues. Kaje and I have spoken about our similar up-bringings and such before. And, I think this is a necessary topic.

Kaje~I've read just about every book suggested here and they are all a great help.

The most important piece of advice that has helped me never cross the 'hitting' line with L is one thing I read by Harville Hendrix in "Giving the Love that Heals..." He said 'never physicalize with your child when you are angry.' 'Don't touch them (period), don't move them into a time out, don't grab their arm, don't touch them in any way. I have remembered that and credit it with my not crossing the hitting line. I have done various other things I'm not proud of, yelling etc... And, I work on those issues each day.

I have had a very hard time with hitting being a trigger for me also. It's easy to understand why 'we' would be triggered by this act, right? I yelled at her so bad one night after she slapped me in the face that she had nightmares. I'm still sad posting about it. My whole tone of voice changed etc.. I was like a







We talked about it a lot and I apologized and we tried to get out her feelings etc... That's all we can do after the damage is done right?

Anyhow, I am coming to the same conclusion that Cattrane has: most children have to unlearn hitting as it is instinctual.

Finally I started the Sears thing with L "when you hit you sit." Now, this is a time out mind you, but I did not these start time outs until I came to accept her hitting as 'normal' in a sense. And, I did not blame 'me' for 'her' hitting any more, not sure if that makes sense. But, I had to be at peace with her hitting and my 'solution', KWIM?

Also, you are both going through immense changes/challenges with weaning/new babies etc. It's gonna be bumpy for a while.

Take it easy on yourself first of all, and it will be easier to be patient with C..









Gully


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks Gully. I am glad you finally got your post to go through. Anyway I am happy to say that I have not hit me in weeks. But he has hit me a lot less too. He did a few times tonite but it is feeling better. Actually he bit me this week and I did show him with my teeth on his finger that it really hurts when you bite. I know that is not a good thing to do but he has been biting us so much lately. He has not bit sense. He actually has been really great. Thanks again all.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Tonight Charlie hit me, kicked me and tried to bite me probably 80 times. I got out the lavender and massaged him and even let him massage my pregnant tummy and it did mellow him a bit. He only slept an hour today due to the May Day parade. And usually naps nearly 3 hours. I am pretty bummed at present cuz he has been great lately and we had so much fun at the Cinco de Mayo Festival yesterday and now I am feeling a setback. I feel a struggle with the AP Gentle Discipline as my dad was quite physical or should I say violent with us kids and I regret to say that I have slapped his hand etc. a few times but have really been trying to be clean of any physical stuff with him. Sometimes I feel that DH is too firm with him when he grabs his hand when Charlie is hitting etc...it just looks harsh to me. This is all so hard and I feel like a failure tonight cuz he was so wild. Trust me he is the cutest sweetest little guy.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Kaje~I hear you. I went to a shower this weekend and L took a ball from a small child and tried to push her over. Can you say "FAILURE" on my part? I did rationalize the situation the best I could.

I told myself, I am not responsible for every act my dd commits.

She is an only child and has had limited exposure to younger babes.

She is a 'high need' child.

etc.. etc..

I still feel like a huge failure when things don't go as expected. But, I am trying to have age appropriate expectations of her and realistic expectations of me also. BTW, I was relieved to learn that it is totally 'normal' for children to tantrum until the age of 5!

In all candor, I have dropped play groups b/c I am afraid she'll smack another child and I'll be mortified







.

Also, I don't want her to learn to be around little ones at the expense of other kids, KWIM? I feel like a total basket case even admitting this stuff...

But perhaps we can try to focus on our accomplishments as well.

1. It doesnt sound like you hit C tonight, right? If not, that's great!. What a tender way you handled the situation, give YOU a pat on the back and recognition for 'exercising' your AP Gentle parenting muscles.

So, to you I say


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

i've been really touched by this thread. i wanted simply to say that i am also currently reading harville hendrix's book, giving the love that heals. it's really wonderful. i suggest it because it's not just about gentle discipline, its about how you can heal your wounds while parenting. you are a brave and loving mama...


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Wow, just found this....

The Ten alternatives can be found at the website here

Click on "Articles"

"Living with Children" and then...

*Ten Alternatives to Punishment*

Quote:

Many parents have come to recognize the harmful effects of physical punishment. They have learned that slapping, hitting, and spanking teach violence, destroy the child's self-esteem, create anger, interfere with learning, and damage the relationship between parent and child.
But knowing what not to do is only the first step. Parents who want to avoid punishment wonder what they should do instead. Unfortunately, most parenting books and articles recommend "alternatives" which we can see on closer inspection are merely alternative types of punishment. These include so-called "logical" consequences, time-out, and denial of privileges.

All of these methods have much in common with physical punishment, and all give the same messages: that the parent has no interest in the underlying unmet needs that led to the behavior, and that the parent is willing to take advantage of his greater size and power over the child. Above all, they tell the child that the people he has come to love and trust wish to cause him pain. This is a "crazy-making" message, because it is so alien to the child's intuitive understanding about what love should look like. Finally, all of these approaches miss the best opportunities for learning, because they sidetrack the child into fantasies of revenge, where he is too distracted to focus on the real issue at hand. Real alternatives to punishment are those that help the child to learn and to grow in a healthy way. There are few greater joys in life than allowing our child to teach us what love is.
I honestly don't know if I am capable of doing things in this manner. It sounds perfect. But even Dr. Sears says kids need 'consequences' and Im totally confused







: I did not give dd a time out so to speak until she was old enough to understand. 3 years was the first. I didn't feel right about it, so I stopped. But, after 2 years of different techniques (for trying to deal with the hitting) I finally implemented Dr. Sears "if you hit you sit". DD only gets one of these time outs for one thing 'hitting'. I don't use it for anything else at all. But for me it sends a message that she has to control her urge to hit and calm down for a while. We talk about the reasons ect...

The model above sounds more ideal, but I don't know if Im that evolved...

This is the biggest barrier for me:

6. Meet the underlying need that led to the behavior in the first place. If we punish the outward behavior, the still unmet need will continually resurface in other ways until it is finally met. An example here would be, "Are you feeling sad because your friend moved away?"

Sounds great, but after being smacked it doesn't really seem appropriate? I don't think it's humanly possible to meet another human beings needs all the time, kwim?

"Did you smack the baby because your tired?"








Granted after the 'cool down' time, we do talk about these things.

I try to follow the suggestions already and even # 6 when she is not 'hitting' someone.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

K, perhaps if I look at this differently.

"There is always a reason for her actions" then I can come to grips with this concept....??? hmmmmm....


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

I am trying to decide how I feel about time outs. There is a book called Time In that I have been reading.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

What's a time in? I've heard of it. I've also heard of a 'connective time out'. I actually stay with Lauren when she 'sits' a minute, so I guess we have the 'connective' time outs? And, I can say her hitting is much better. But, she still gets, angry and bangs her head







. Not sure that's better.









I'm about to read "Everyday Blessings". I've heard great things. I feel I need to re-connect/re-enforce my GD style every so often, and it's time I did so again. We have so many messages to the contrary in this culture, so I think I need a 'de-frag'...


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Devi I just got everyday blessings and here is a link to the time-in
book

http://www.parent-ed.com/toc_time.html


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Let me know how you like the book









Sounds interesting


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Let me know how you like the book, Im going to start it soon









The 'time in' book sounds interesting


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## Second_in_January (May 7, 2002)

Hi, I'm coming in a little late... I'm also trying not to repeat my violent childhood (with little success in the last few days). I really was happy to find this discussion.

I wanted to say a couple things:

Quote:

_Originally posted by kaje62_
*In my heart of hearts I believe my mother was mistreated but I have such a hard timing finding compassion for her but I will work on it.*
My mother was an only parent, and didn't handle it well. As a single parent myself, I have began to understand her a little. That said, she continues to choose to verbally abuse me, and therefore she is not a participant in my life or in her grandchildren's lives. I used to think that forgiveness meant that we had to get along. I now see that's never going to happen as she continues to deny any and all wrongdoing on her part.

The comments and ideas in this thread have really helped me to remember to be the parent I decided to be a long time ago. I kinda lost my way during my pregnancy and with the new baby and put too much stress on my six-year-old. A good book that helps me is "All About Love" by Bell Hooks. It is about the confusion that occurs when the people children love the most (parents) inflict violence (spanking, etc.) on them.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

okay i am quite bummed. I have not hit him in 46 days or nearly 7 weeks and today he was sitting by me and knocked me hard in the mouth was this musical wooden instrument. I said, "Charlie do not hit mama!" And I went to take it away and he hit me on the shoulder with the drum stick he had and I took the drum stick and slapped him on the cheek. He started crying and did the lower lip quiver. I started crying and felt like crap. I told him over and over I was sorry and mommy should not hit Charlie. He kept saying mommy I am sorry, I will put away my instruments. I felt so bad. Anway we went for a walk, it was sunny, we had fun, we looked at flowers and birds and cats. And he was cute and happy and we got him new sunglasses. I just feel like I ruined my 7 weeks. A friend recommended I read, Ghosts in the Nursery. I think I will get it. I am reading Mindful Parenting.

I am so bummed about this cuz I don't want to do this at all. And I realize I want to hit when he hits me. I never ever stood up to my dad when he hit me etc. accept for when I was 19, I was home for Easter Vacation and we had some family friends over and we were talking about water skiing and I said I really like water skiing and my dad in front of this whole family including a boy my age said, "What did it take to get you up? An oceanlineer?" Cuz I have always been so heavy and by the way he was very heavy. I didn't say anything. Anyway after they left I was in the bathroom crying and I heard my brothers and sisters laughing about the oceanliner comment. (they were all thin) And I walked out and told them to all shut up. My dad came out and said, "What is going on?" And I went off on him. I said, "It is all because of you, you fxxxx son of a bxxxx. I hate you so much." Anyway everything from all those years came out and I kept yelling at him and he was kicking me and hitting me in the face and my brothers were holding him back and my mom and sisters were telling me to shut up and I couldn't. To this day I do not regret it. I think I needed to get it out. Anyway a few months later my dad basically had a conversion and called me crying, telling me how sorry he was, telling me he loved me, asking me for forgiveness, telling me how bad of a dad he was. Anyway I felt so good and close to him and forgave him and went to see him once and he played with my hair which he had never done before and told me so many good things about me. Anway he died 6 weeks later and made me a tape before he died and this was on it.

Quote:

I want you to know how much
I really love you
and how much I care for you.
You are a beautiful girl
and you have
a lot going for you and
someday you will find a man
that you really love and
I know you'll raise a beautiful family.
I know that your life will be happy and long and
you will have children and grandchildren.
I'll never forget when you were little and
how lovable you were.
You were probably one of the most
beautiful babies ever born.
I remember how we use to
sing Bali Hi and
you'd dance for us and
I'd throw little pillows at you
and knock you down. And you'd just laugh and
give me the pillow and
we'd do it over and over again.
I love you now and
I always will love you.
I hold nothing but love for you.
Hold me in your heart forever and
don't forget me.
Love me honey and
tell your kids about me.
Make sure that you and your husband
take time to pray with them.
Pray for mom and
bring your children to see her lots.
You'll be blessed with many things in your life.
I know that you have nothing
but good to give so give.
I played the tape at our grooms dinner.

Anyway i know this is all so heavy but I wonder if I hit back cuz of feeling like I could not defend myself with my dad. Don't know.

Anyway I need prayers and support. Love Kathy Jo


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## spryte (Jan 27, 2002)

KJ- what your dad said- is beautiful.

I am sorry you had such a rough day. You are doing your best and will keep doing better.

As I was saying to you in person, for me I always was yelled at as a child. It was very hard on me and now when I am in situations where there is a lot of yelling I have to get out right away. I could not get away and I could not fight back when I was yelled at when I was little. So now when there is a lot of yelling I want to leave or yell back.

Thus my discipline problem is that I yell. When the kids are screaming and screaming and it doesnt' stop, if I do not leave the room then I may yell back. Then I feel like crap and so do the kids. But when I leave the room, I don't yell.

Maybe getting away for a few moments will work for you too?


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## scribblerkate (Jan 19, 2002)

KJ, hugs of empathy to you. I have no real advice because as parents we are all on different paths -- different paths that have led us to where we are and different paths we are heading down for today and tomorrow. But please do not beat yourself up about this. Seven weeks do not go down the drain because of one bad afternoon. Erase and move on.

So I was wrong. A little bit of advice. Prolly more in me somewhere but not in a public forum.

The sun is shining today!


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

OMG last night Charlie bit my stomach right where the fat fold starts at the bottom. I swore. I can't believe it. It hurt so bad. I cried too cuz he has not bit me in 5 weeks. And after he did that he said, "Mama I need food." Actually that is what he said to me 10 mintues before he bit me. And Jerry was sweeping the sidewalk. So we went and got thai curry tofu and peapods and he ate tons and was happy. Should I listen to him for now?????


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

was my post so heavy that I scared you all away. I need you!


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## scribblerkate (Jan 19, 2002)

I thought you answered your own post! Thought that "Should I listen to him for now????" was a rhetorical question. Yes, I think you should listen to him! He told you what he wanted and he only got aggressive with you after he received no response. And let's just say, don't know about anyone else but hunger can really make me a, well, not a nice person.

Listening doesn't mean he always gets his way. Listening means actively hearing him and responding. Letting him know that his needs and wants are heard and respected.

See, that's why I didn't respond. I am a lecturer at heart. What can I say.


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## zombiemommie (Dec 6, 2001)

Remember KJ that he is still so young that sometimes it is probably easier on him to act (like biting) then remembering to use his words, KWIM ? It doesn't mean that things aren't working, that he is regressing, that you are regressing. Sheesh, I find myself realizing after the fact SO many things - especially hunger and how it can make my ds act out. He is almost 3 and I am still stumped at how many times I "forget" to feed him. I guess demand nursing for 2 years threw me and I just still forget ROFL. I thought it would get better now that the baby is here and it really hasn't not until lately. She is just going on 4 months and I finally, finally feel like I am crawling out of the evil beast mommy hole. I am getting less and less intense, less hormonal, less MEAN to him as time goes on.

KJ, please give yourself a break. I know you don't want to hit him. None of *us* do. I try daily not to. ANd I haven't in a long time. But I have to say, that never in my life have I been so .... angry,felt so out of control, as I did during my late pregnancy and early babymoon. I know it just co-incided with the normal behaviors of a 2 1/2 year old, and all I can do daily is try and be a better mother. At least we are all trying. I wish I had better advice to you, but all I can say is be gentle with yourself. You need that. You have ALOT on your plate with being pg, havnig a 2 year old, planning a VBAC and I KNOW that is stressing you alot. I was just there. It is hard. Hang in there.

(((Hugs))))


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Kate and Kelley thanks for your ongoing support. Zombiemommie, I love you. You are so sweet!!!!!!!!!!


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## smeta (Dec 15, 2001)

KJ - I think it's awesome that you are analyzing this and working on it. It seems like you are making good progress too!

Quote:

Anyway i know this is all so heavy but I wonder if I hit back cuz of feeling like I could not defend myself with my dad. Don't know.
I was thinking this same thing.
When Charlie starts hitting, try and remind yourself that he's not actually wanting to be abusive to you, he's just frustrated because he's not mature enough to communicate what's going on with him.

Also, I totally agree w/ zombiemommie. I have been feeling like this evil mother myself lately and I hate it. Definately have been yelling at Cora more than I want to. Now that new house is starting to come together more I feel less stressed and have been trying to be like my old self again!


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Smeta thanks for your thoughtful and kind words.


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## CollegeMama (Oct 31, 2002)

kaje62 - your post about your dad made me cry. It's so bittersweet, but I'm so glad for you that you were able to get some closure with him. Confrontation does wonders, I think.
Don't be so hard on yourself about your little setback. You are making great strides! You are learning better coping skills each day.
When Devi said this:

Quote:

'Don't touch them (period), don't move them into a time out, don't grab their arm, don't touch them in any way.
It was such a revelation to me! Of course my son being only 9 months, I can't really do this yet, because often I have to hold him or carry him from room to room. But, I do think it will really help me when he gets older. Anger management is such a tough issue for me to grasp. No one has ever taught me how to handle my anger in a healthy way. So I have to piece it together myself!

I wanted to thank you again for this thread.
I hope you have a great day!
Marcy


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh Marcy you are so sweet. And I was thinking about that. Since I posted this huge drama post, he has hit me like 5 different days and I have not hit back and I realized that is an accomplishment everytime I don't hit him back.

i have a friend who is struggling mroe than me
do you know of any support groups or anything for

gentle discipline
or struggling with child hood crap and being a good parent?


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

KJ~glad you are making progress.

Here is some help for your friend.

Family Support Network

I think this will point him/her in the right direction?

Devi


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

edited b/c it was waaayy







T

Peace


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Devi don't worry about being perfect on this thread. We need you here.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

aw shucks thanks









I re read it and it didnt' make sense and I was afraid I was taking things off topic and into my personal 'crud' kwim? Didn't want to take from the issue at all....










Perhaps we can start a "survivors" as parents thread? I belonged to a yahoo group called survivors as mothers, but it got really heavy and depressing *sigh*

Your sweet, thanks!

*edited to fix smiley* mmmmmkkkkk?


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## zombiemommie (Dec 6, 2001)

I just wanted to say if you all start a survivors of parents or whatever you were calling it please let me know. I'm soooo in. ANyway .... I took somebody's advice and ordered that book "giving the love that heals" I think its called (its in the living room) and I am just on the 2nd chapter and I cannot even begin to tell you how many bells are going off. LOUDLY, from my core. I hope this can help me. It is psychobabbly, but it is hitting me in the gut and that is a good thing, I guess. Cheaper than therapy ROFL.

ANyhow, thanks for the recommendation.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Survivors

Zombiemommie and others, here is our survivors thread...










Kaje~thanks again for your kind words. Especially saying I don't have to be 'perfect'. I didn't realize I was that obvious. :LOL


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

Okay I failed to mention this but sometimes DH and I have huge blow-outs and too often in front of our little guy.

It is so sad cuz it is over the dumbest things. Last night we walked to Uptown and went out to eat and had a nice meal and then walked up to go to the movie winged migration, rated G. 1/2 way into the movie I asked DH if Charlie was poopy and he said yes very crabbily. So I knew there was no way he would go change him. So I went out 8 months preggie and sat on the floor and changed him and he was not poopy.

Anyway then Charlie was kinda squirming and stuff so I asked him if he wanted to watch the movie or go home and he said go home and then Jerry asked him again and he said go home so we packed up and got him in the stroller to walk home. As we were leaving Charlie said, "No I wanna watch the movie. No go home." And Jerry said, "open the door." And I said, "wait, once we leave the door is locked and no one is here to let us back in." And he said, "open the door." So he went out the door, which yes we were locked out. So Charlie completely flipped out. Crying we could not settle him and DH and I started arguing. I think I said he was rigid, and he told me to go to Hell and that he did not want to look at me. And I called him another name. Anyway before bed I said should we go to our counselor and he said no let's go to a lawyer. I know he does not mean that but I was crying until 1:30 in the morning and I am pregnant and this was all in front of Charlie. It sucked. We have seen 5 counselors in 8 years and I know we love each other but we do these big blow outs 4 times a year at least. I hate it.

I feel so unconnected to him with the upcoming VBAC and all. I love him but I am at my wits end


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I don't know if this is any help, but a suggestion (I'm not in your shoes and have never hit my children, so this is just a suggestion from an outside point of view)

I really believe in the power of affirmation. In our house we frequently say 'In our house, we don't hit. Mummy doesn't hit, Daddy doesn't hit, dd#1 doesnt hit, and the baby doesnt hit." Or 'This is a no-hitting house"

Then the same for biting, pushing, etc, whatever is the issue with dds at the time.

Of course, the affirmation isn't yet strictly true - both dds sometimes hit, bite or push. (but neither dh or I ever do, thankfully neither of us experienced that as children so we don't struggle with this)

However, I believe that affirmations said (and read) often enough, can become true, both for adults and for children.

I'm not saying that this would solve your issues, but it might be of help at the stressful moments when either your ds hits out, or you are tempted to hit back. To use words can give power to your intentions.

HTH. Peace.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

KJ









So sorry for what you are enduring. I know so how you feel.

Call or write if you need an ear.

D


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I feel a little like I'm intruding on an established conversation, but I've just stumbled on it. Is it too late to enter? I promise I've read everything up to this point.

First, I add my "hats off" to you Kaje for dealing with the situation and being honest and open. That takes an incredible amount of strength and I admire you tremendously for it.

Second, I too am a product on an abusive upbringing and I too have sworn that I will not do the same to my kids.

Third, its really easy to see how a child's constant physical "lashing out" makes it harder on us not to respond. We are, after all, human. My son was similar in that he was very active and very physical.

So, my response was to really work with him to eliminate the hitting and biting. I used very consistant time outs, starting when he was 2. Now, I know this will get me flamed by some here, and it may or may not be the best alternative. But, it worked for us, it stopped his hurting me and it stopped the risk of my hurting him. Sounds like a win-win to me. Of course, this was in addition to listening to his needs (like being hungry), encouraging him to use words, and making very sure he got LOTS of physical exercise each day. But, when he hit or bit me, he got a 2 minute time out (chair in the dining room). I was lucky in that he would stay where I directed him, so I never had to hold him down and I could walk into the kitchen (open to dining room) to catch my breath too. I think the real key to this was that we did it every time he hit or bit, even when it made us late or was inconvenient or whatever.

Seems like maybe if you started a consistant discipline routine then the whole situation might improve and you could figure out what to do next.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

I have not wanted to post this cuz I want to be perfect but about a week ago, Charlie pulled my hair so hard he got a clump out. So I pulled his hair back, not real hard but he cried. I hate how I still react.


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## mamacate (Mar 29, 2003)

I just posted about my DS biting, hitting, pinching, pulling hair, etc. I have not hit him, but I have responded by restraining him roughly and I even recently said to my partner "taste of his own medicine" when his twin sister bit him (I *do* make sure to try to restrain either one when biting happens--we're getting canines AND molars in my house right now). She looked at me like "did you just say that" when I said it, and I got all defensive, but now in retrospect, what was I thinking?

I feel like I'm on the same road you are, and I need to do something before I hit. I feel like I'm really good at most discipline stuff, but the stuff that feels like *violence* toward me completely pushes my buttons. I am also a survivor of an abusive family and a mentally ill parent. I did a lot of therapy before having my kids, and maybe I need to go back. I just ordered one of the books recommended here, and I have the two Kurcinka books and "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be," but at the end of the day I can barely see straight--I'm having trouble finding time to read (I'm posting from work right now--I work part-time).

This thread has really helped me see the path I'm going down and reminded me that being more *harsh* is not the answer. I got some advice to that effect on another AP list, but I think given my background it's not safe for me to take that approach. I do believe in structure and guidance for young children, and I need to figure out exactly what approach feels right for us. AP was so easy (exhausting, but simple) when they were infants. Now it's all so much more complicated.

I'm going to work on my reactions, practice detaching from my unconstructive responses, and I am going to start praying when it happens. I am not a christian, but I will look for a good diety to pray to to help me find a calm center and respond properly. And the reminder that kids need to unlearn hitting is really helpful. I was definitely getting wrapped up with *how did he get this way* and that is definitely a response to family of origin issues.

So Kaje, I don't really have any advice to you, just a reminder that your honesty has helped others, and another person promising herself that she will do better.

(((HUGS))),

Cate


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

KJ,

I'm so sorry to hear all the violence and toughness that has been shown to you, and congratulate you on being so loving that you want to stop the cycle. Seriously, I am amazed and impressed by your spirit. Being hard on yourself sounds like it comes naturally, just like the impusle to fight back.

I recommend an article:
http://parentleaders.org/articles/he...ggression.html

I have just also recommended it to Cate (who's name I love) on her thread.

The woman who writes these articles on her site is so adept at seeing us "survivor" mommies for the loving souls that we truly are, and guiding moms toward giving our children the opportunities we never had (the ability to speak up, have boundaries, be seen for ourselves, etc).

Keep up the good work, KJ, I'm behind you 100%.

Warmly,
CurlyTop


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

curly you are so sweet, you made me cry

thank you

and i have not said this but charlie rarely hits me lately like if he does 7 times in one day at the most and maybe twice a week so it is really changing.


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## spryte (Jan 27, 2002)

Curly top- that was A WONDERFUL article. Thanks!


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

i have not posted here in awhile. had my baby. beautiful angelyn. she is about 8 1/2 weeks.

anyway charlie has been great with her and hard with us, lots of temper tantrums...etc...i am trying and it is so hard. i am tired, etc...

also I have not been perfect. I can't remember exactly but one night he ran from us in a parking lot and we did give him a teeny spanking on the butt

i have been threatening spankings now that he knows the word and i don't want to do that

i cannot say how much he kicks, it is driving us nuts especially with diaper changes and in bed, we all sleep together....lovely family bed

anyway i think i have said this before but maybe not on this thread but dh and i struggle too as a couple, we argue, call each other names at times...god we are the worst parents...

anyway here is what happened last night..

last night........

dh and i were arguing. I was crying and charlie kept saying, mommy teach me. i could not understand what he was saying and finally realized it was teach me...and i said teach you what

and he said....

teach me to be happy!!!!

oh my gosh that is what i need to do.

i want to ask if anyone can PM me other parenting boards were i can get support for my dh and me struggles. I want to post somewhere where no one locally knows me cuz i don't want to share the nitty gritty icky stuff with people who know him and me who may misunderstand or judge.. anyway if you have leads..please let me know

in the meantime let's work on this so we

can teach them to be happy.


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

KJ,

First, congratulations a hundred thousand times on the birth of your daughter. And what a beautiful name, Angelyn. I've never heard that name and it is truly lovley.

Now, on to responding to your post. I don't know of any other parenting boards (besides mainstream ones like Babycenter.com... maybe try there?) However, on teaching your DS how to be happy. Here's an idea:

There's a book and website by Byron Katie: Loving What Is (www.thework.org). Katie offers a four-question method of looking at things in life, plus a turnaround. See the site for details. She has examples of this working with little kids, however to me, the most important thing is to use it yourself. This may have a great benefit to your relationship with your dh, and also can help you set a happy example for your ds. The beauty is, it takes only YOU to make this difference. It does not matter whether DH is into it or thinks it is dumb, you make a difference for you. If, OTOH, DH is into it - you're GOLDEN!!

I want to add, making a marriage work DOES require commitment and respect from BOTH parties. What you can do without buy-in from your DH is become happy on the inside.

As for Charlie acting out, that is soooooo normal for a child with a new little sibling. Look at this article:
http://www.parentleaders.org/article...solutions.html

Last, you're doing such a great job. You're obviously a caring, thoughtful mother and wife. I hope you find encouragement and happiness very soon. You deserve it!

Yours,
CurlyTop


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

i am nak so this will be brief

curly with the great siggie, that is exactly what i am soaking on, i need to be an example and be happy and he will, dh is willing to work on this and we have done lotsa therapy but keep struggling

thank you


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## where are my keys? (Oct 21, 2003)

hi kaje62 i am originally from MPLS too. i cant remember the names of all the orginizations there anymore, but i know there are all kinds of cool places around....i would call united way's "first call for help" line and see if you can find a parenting group for abuse survivors, and go from there. i know you can find something like that. also look in the phone book for womens centers etc just to give them a call and see if you can find an annonymous support group that would help you meet your goals! there is a really cool group of women in MPLS that started like this radical mamas collective that might be loaded with resources. i will find out what thier name is, i have a friend there who knows about them. another place to go look is Arise! bookstore on Lyndale kinda by the Wedge in MPLS, they are conected with all these progressive groups around town and you may have luck asking them about Gentle Dicipline parenting groups or Atachment Parenting groups, or look for a La Leche League chapter maybe?

my son is waking up but i wish you the best i have read this entire thread and my heart goes out to you---gotta go!


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## Guava~Lush (Aug 9, 2003)

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You

thank you for all the books and links. I feel like I am not alone and am armed for the battle of better parenting. Healthy parenting.










kaj, hugs to you.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

started another related thread
would love your help mamas!

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...hreadid=108019


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## KateMac (Dec 23, 2003)

KAJE-I've read the thread from the beginning, so I hope you don't mind the intrusion, but...

Both my parents used your father's discipline techniques, but I don't think they were so proud of it. They also offered lots of love and praise - at least as much as they could. When I had children, my mother told me that I was a better mother than she was, she was a better mother than hers, and so on. Each generation has a responsibility to become more human(e). So, when I get frustrated, I get a lot of mileage from that.

Having said that, it seems like Charlie gets lots of attention when he acts out in anger. Is this true?

Also, there are many books for adults posted here, but even small children can appreciate Harriet, You'll Drive Me Wild, or No Biting (by Katz). There are others, but I have these on my shelves, so... FWIW.

I'm struck by your honesty and integrity in posting. I think it helps all of us.


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## kaje62 (Nov 20, 2001)

i appreciate your post
what is FWIW
and not sure if i wrote this but two quotes
that have meant a lot to me

have been

hurt people hurt people
and we are all victims of victims

and i know my dad had it hard!
so did my mom for that matter


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## KateMac (Dec 23, 2003)

FWIW - For What It's Worth

I wasn't so much referring to how hard your folks had it, but rather how you choose to improve on what you learned from them. I hoped you to think about your awareness as an improvement on your upbringing that will benefit yourself, your children, and all of society. I was inspired to make this point by your family photo. I LOVE the pic and you clearly have great joy in addition to these more difficult experiences.


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