# anyone still using booster seats for their pre-teen?



## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

i realize i am the worlds biggest dork. LOL i am making my 11.5yo ds use a low back booster in the back seat of the car. our state allows him to sit in the front at age 12. we have a passenger airbag, and he is slight of build. i am really starting to rethink letting him move up front.

can he sit up front and still use the booster?

is his emotional need to stop feeling "like a baby" more important than his physical safety?

neither the back nor the front belts fit him very well sans booster. maybe i should compromise and let him ditch the booster, but make him stay in the back?

any BTDT's?

thanks!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'd just talk to him about how much safer it is. Now they're saying that kids shouldn't sit in the front until 15.

-Angela


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I would lose the booster seat.

But, I would still have him sit in the back.

Don't his friends tease him about the booster seat? It's bad enough to be small, it has to be worse to be small AND still sit in a booster seat.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Have you checked the fit of the seatbelt without the booster? If it fits well, ditch the booster. If it doesn't, cool or not, alive wins.

-Angela


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## LittleBee (Apr 27, 2006)

I would get one of those seat belt adjustment straps and ditch the booster seat!

I gotta laugh though...I had to go back and re-read the post, I thought your post said DS was 15 LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 11.5 makes a lot more sense...whew it's been a LONG day lol!!!!!!!!


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## Nikki Christina (Mar 27, 2003)

ok.. I have an 11 year old niece & have to mediate fights alot of times between her & my SIL ,cause my niece adores me & will listen if i say her mom is right...which i normally do.. because SIL is a great mom ..

but um.. if my sil tried to force her 11 year old in a booster.. Id tell her that was her own battle.. but I thought she was crazy!

how slight of build we talking???

really.. IMO.. make him sit in the back.. but dont make the kid sit in a booster..


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBee*
I would get one of those seat belt adjustment straps and ditch the booster seat!

Please don't!. If you mean the triangular fabric things that pull the upper belt down, those are extreamly unsafe (because they also pull the lap belt up--- over the abdomen instead of over the hips).

How does your DS feel about the booster? If he dislikes it and can "make" himself sit correctly, that would be an option. Then, it puts it on him--- if he is slumping, or pulling the belt out of postion, he needs help. Is there somewhere in the car that the belt would fit him better. DD is only 7 now, and I really can't imagine her being safer in a booster at 11.5 than without, but I aslo assume she will be well over 4'9" at that point.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Oh, please, please, please don't make your almost 12 year old sit in a booster! I don't care how slight of build he is. I really, truly believe that you are hurting him emotionally. I understand the "better emotionally than physically" (I think) but for crying out loud, he is old enough to go to school dances! I am on board with "you are the parent and have to make the hard choices" - but would be on your side on the booster if he was six or seven. My dd1 sat in a no back booster until her 8th birthday. She is very, very slight also. Almost ten and is 60 pounds. She sits in the back of course.

If you aren't comfortable with him sitting in the front, then don't let him. I think if you put the seat all the way back (furthest from the air bag), he'd be fine - but making him sit in the back seat isn't anywhere near as hard on his pre-teen ego as sitting in a booster. I really reread your post to be sure it was not a joke.

At nearly 12, he is clearly not a baby. Of course he feels like a baby being made to sit in a booster seat. At 12 I was babysitting for kids who sat in booster seats... Please reconsider your stance. And if you do, tell your son we said "you're welcome".


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

how about calling your local police/fire department, they are trained in proper safety seat installation... they can see your car, your booster seat and you child and they can let you know the proper decision to make.
also you can check with your doctor and see what they say...
check with your auto insurance agency, they also are safety experts...

a booster in the front... DEFINATELY NOT....the only plus i can see to the front seat is it 'may' be adjustable and allow for DS to have a better fit?

i would probably start with the police/fire dept and go from there...

keep us posted

ps: dork and geek win over dead.....


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## momfirst (Apr 14, 2006)

Try calling the dept of safety and ask for the car seat technician. The police may know the laws of your state, but they generally don't really know about what is safest for your child. But do check on laws. New laws were recently passed in a lot of states saying that booster seats must be used till X weight/age...although I don't think any went over 8 years or 80 pounds (most were 6 years/60 pounds...some are still just the 4 year/40 pound.)

How tall is your son? What does he weigh? I would for sure keep him in the backseat (it's safest)...not sure about the booster though...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Seat belts are not designed for small people. My grandmother always had issues as a grown woman with them not fitting. She always drove with several pillows so that she would be positioned somewhat correctly. I totally disagree with the "you're hurting him emotionally" argument. If you make it freakish, it will be freakish. If you make it matter-of-fact it will be matter-of-fact.

Fact of the matter is that seatbelts KILL in accidents with small people.

-Angela


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## soygurl (Jan 28, 2006)

Can he pass the 5 step test without the booster? If he can... ditch it. But if he can't... alive and the laws of physics always win.
1. Does the child sit all the way back against the auto seat?
2. Do the child's knees bend comfortably at the edge of the auto seat?
3. Does the belt cross the shoulder between the neck and arm?
4. Is the lap belt as low as possible, touching the thighs?
5. Can the child stay seated like this for the whole trip?
If you answered "No" to any of the above questions, your child still needs to ride in a booster. If you forget the 5-step test, buckle yourself in a seat belt and see how it fits you. Chances are it fits low across your hips and across your shoulder and chest. The seat belt should hit all your "bony" parts. (Source: SBS USA)

~Kelsie


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## LittleBee (Apr 27, 2006)

TiredX2 said:


> Please don't!. If you mean the triangular fabric things that pull the upper belt down, those are extreamly unsafe (because they also pull the lap belt up--- over the abdomen instead of over the hips).
> QUOTE]
> 
> The one I am thinking of is a little clip, I don't know that it differs from the one you are talking about...


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
i realize i am the worlds biggest dork. LOL i am making my 11.5yo ds use a low back booster in the back seat of the car. our state allows him to sit in the front at age 12. we have a passenger airbag, and he is slight of build. i am really starting to rethink letting him move up front.

can he sit up front and still use the booster?

is his emotional need to stop feeling "like a baby" more important than his physical safety?

neither the back nor the front belts fit him very well sans booster. maybe i should compromise and let him ditch the booster, but make him stay in the back?

any BTDT's?

thanks!

First off, you are NOT a dork. You are a VERY smart momma for using a booster with your DS. Thank you.
Secondly, vehicles and their safety belts are not designed for children. The lap/shoulder belts are designed to restrain the average adult. Hence the recommendation to use a booster seat until your child passes the 5 step test. Here it is: http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.htm
I understand your son's reluctance and embarassment using a booster seat. In this case, I would recommend a backless booster (cannot be seen from outside of the car) IF your vehicle has a high back and head rest in the seating position where he sits.
Why are booster seats so important? The Booster seats main responsibility is to "boost" the child up so that the lap and shoulder belt lies across the correct and strongest parts of his body. Should you wreck and he is not in a booster and should be, the crash forces will be experienced at his neck and most likely abdomen. Spinal cord injury (paralysis) and bleeds within the abdomen are typical injuries experienced by children who are restrained by only the lap/shoulder belt and should be in a booster. They are almost always fatal or result in permanant paralysis.
It is not recommended that one use a belt positioner. They are not crash tested and will not hold should you wreck. They do nothing to protect an occupant.
The safest place for any child 15 and under is the back seat. So using a booster in the front is not recommended.
Crash forces experienced by anyone or anything in a vehicle in even a low speed crash, are very violent. Putting it into perspective....Newton's theory of motion...You are travelling 30 mph and you wreck. Your son weighs 75 pounds. The seat belt you have him in will now be restraining him as if he weighed 2,250 pounds. speed times weight equals pounds of restraining force. Think about that force upon his neck or on his stomach. If that's where the seat belt is when you wreck, that's where your force will be exerted.
He will not have to use a booster forever. However, I am sure you realize he will live forever with his injuries or you with his death, should you wreck and he is only restrained in a lap and shoulder that doesn't fit him to restrain him. You will make the best decision for him I am certain.
Lastly, child restraint laws vary by state. You may want to verify applicable laws in your state. Any other questions please ask.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
Oh, please, please, please don't make your almost 12 year old sit in a booster! I don't care how slight of build he is. I really, truly believe that you are hurting him emotionally. I understand the "better emotionally than physically" (I think) but for crying out loud, he is old enough to go to school dances! I am on board with "you are the parent and have to make the hard choices" - but would be on your side on the booster if he was six or seven. My dd1 sat in a no back booster until her 8th birthday. She is very, very slight also. Almost ten and is 60 pounds. She sits in the back of course.

If you aren't comfortable with him sitting in the front, then don't let him. I think if you put the seat all the way back (furthest from the air bag), he'd be fine - but making him sit in the back seat isn't anywhere near as hard on his pre-teen ego as sitting in a booster. I really reread your post to be sure it was not a joke.

At nearly 12, he is clearly not a baby. Of course he feels like a baby being made to sit in a booster seat. At 12 I was babysitting for kids who sat in booster seats... Please reconsider your stance. And if you do, tell your son we said "you're welcome".









Child restraint use has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the child is a "baby". It is about keeping your child as safe as you are. Crash forces that will injure and kill you don't discriminate. You are entitled to your opinion but I wanted to point out how completely misleading and incorrect your statements are for any parent reading this thread. Booster seat use is not only the law in most states, it is the smartest and safest thing a parent can do for their children while driving.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

LittleBee said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
> ...


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
Oh, please, please, please don't make your almost 12 year old sit in a booster! I don't care how slight of build he is. I really, truly believe that you are hurting him emotionally. I understand the "better emotionally than physically" (I think) but for crying out loud, he is old enough to go to school dances! I am on board with "you are the parent and have to make the hard choices" - but would be on your side on the booster if he was six or seven. My dd1 sat in a no back booster until her 8th birthday. She is very, very slight also. Almost ten and is 60 pounds. She sits in the back of course.

If you aren't comfortable with him sitting in the front, then don't let him. I think if you put the seat all the way back (furthest from the air bag), he'd be fine - but making him sit in the back seat isn't anywhere near as hard on his pre-teen ego as sitting in a booster. I really reread your post to be sure it was not a joke.

At nearly 12, he is clearly not a baby. Of course he feels like a baby being made to sit in a booster seat. At 12 I was babysitting for kids who sat in booster seats... Please reconsider your stance. And if you do, tell your son we said "you're welcome".









I really, REALLY agree with Kristen on this one. My almost 12 year old would rather be dead that be seen in a booster seat. Let's face it...we have to pick our battles as parents and weigh safety issues all the time...yes it may be safer in the remote chance of a head on colission or near-fatal accident...but so would crash helmets and full body protection suits. In fact, it would be safer if we never even left the house! But this is real life....and sometimes the way a child feels and is treated is more important than a precaution???
Just my opinion.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Booster seat use is not only the law in most states, it is the smartest and safest thing a parent can do for their children while driving.
Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

I am not arguing that booster seat use isn't the law, as well as a smart and safe thing to do. I am all over it for ages five, six, seven. My dd1 rode in hers til she was eight, and was the only kid in her class after kindergarten that was made to. She didn't like it, but I explained that it was the law, and the safest way for her to ride. But she wasn't yet able to ride her bike without training wheels, or walk downtown without an adult, or any number of things that kids can do as they grow up.

My understanding on booster seat use is that 8 years or 80 pounds is what was found to be safest, but was unable to be passed. What was passed (originally - maybe has changed since) was 6 years or 60 pounds.

The OP hasn't told us the weight of her ds, just that he is slight. My very, very slight dd1 is almost ten and just weighed in the low 60s at her pediatrician appointment last week. The OP's ds is almost 12 - what does he weigh? I am also curious as to the ages of DC's two sons who are in seats.

I know that some on this thread think I am outrageous for putting his emotional safety on the same par with his physical safety. One, I don't think that letting him sit in the back seat with the regular shoulder/lap belt is compromising his physical safety - at almost 12 years old! Two, is there really no one but pinkmilk who understands what is happening to the self esteem of a 12 year old boy by being made to sit in a booster seat?? I think it is no different than asking him to hold your hand as you cross the street. He will feel embarrassed; he will be teased; it will affect him emotionally. I think it is hard enough to be a kid without us trying to keep them from growing up. It is our job as parents to find ways to slowly let them grow up. We may be uncomfortable with it at first but we do them a disservice if we overprotect them.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
My very, very slight dd1 is almost ten and just weighed in the low 60s at her pediatrician appointment last week.

And does she pass the 5 point test that was posted? If so, she is likely okay without a booster if she is in the back seat (at that weight she should NEVER be in a front seat that has an air bag). My child is 9, weighs 65lbs and is 4'5" tall and is in a booster. A booster is recommended until around 4'9" which is likely around the time that a child will pass the 5 point test. If the OP's son doesn't past that test due to his height, then as dallaschildren pointed out, in an accident he could be paralyzed or killed due to the seat belt not fitting correctly.

Quote:

I don't think that letting him sit in the back seat with the regular shoulder/lap belt is compromising his physical safety - at almost 12 years old!
Age has nothing to do with this. Size is all that matters. This is the exact reason they have developed advanced air bags that deploy with different forces depending on how close your seat is to the dash/steering wheel and air bags that turn off automatically for people under a certain weight. The reason is that safety devices in vehicles are designed for an average sized person and they are finding that small people are getting seriously injured or killed with them.

Quote:

Two, is there really no one but pinkmilk who understands what is happening to the self esteem of a 12 year old boy by being made to sit in a booster seat?? I think it is no different than asking him to hold your hand as you cross the street.
I believe it is completely different. I don't let my child ride a bike, scooter or roller blades without a properly worn helmet and other safety equipment depending on the sport. Also, she is not allowed on certain rides at amusement parks because she isn't tall enough. None of these things have anything to do with her age. A booster seat is a safety device and that is how they should be viewed. A booster seat is NOT the same as baby convenience devices (i.e. high chair, stroller, etc.) as it not for convenience.

If you think sitting in a booster seat is bad for his self esteem, what would his self esteem be like if he was suddenly in a wheel chair and had to be off school for months or years recovering from an accident? Not a risk I'd be willing to take.

Hopefully this mama can go over the 5 point test with her son today. It might just not be something she has to worry about if he passes the test to go into a seat belt.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

There is no WAY my 11 yr old would ride in a booster he would be HORRIBLY harrassed I agree with the pp peer pressure is very heavy at that age. He rides in the back w/ a lap/shoulderbelt.

Edited... He is is in a lap/shoulder belt in our volvo


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter*
There is no WAY my 11 yr old would ride in a booster he would be HORRIBLY harrassed I agree with the pp peer pressure is very heavy at that age. He rides in the back w/ a lapbelt.

A lap belt only? Or lap/shoulder belt?

http://www.consumer.org.nz/newsitem....0belt%20safety

Quote:

Crossing the vulnerable abdomen, lap belts can cause horrific internal injuries as passengers are violently folded in half during a crash.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JBaxter*
There is no WAY my 11 yr old would ride in a booster he would be HORRIBLY harrassed I agree with the pp peer pressure is very heavy at that age. He rides in the back w/ a lapbelt.

I wanted to mention that having your 11 yo in just a lap belt is extremely dangerous. All crash forces will be centered completely across his stomach/pelvis. A childs skeletal structure isn't fully formed until puberty, so his pelvis although getting stronger at 11, is no match for crash forces exerted on only it. I would suggest moving him to a seating position in the rear, that has a *lap AND shoulder belt*.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

a booster seat for a 12 year old? I wouldn't do it unless there was some growth issue that made him quite unusually small for his age.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
I am not arguing that booster seat use isn't the law, as well as a smart and safe thing to do. I am all over it for ages five, six, seven. My dd1 rode in hers til she was eight, and was the only kid in her class after kindergarten that was made to. She didn't like it, but I explained that it was the law, and the safest way for her to ride. But she wasn't yet able to ride her bike without training wheels, or walk downtown without an adult, or any number of things that kids can do as they grow up.

Most parents do not use a booster at all. They take their children straight from a child seat to just a vehicle belt. This is what we in the CPS community are trying to combat. Misinformation. What I don't want the OP to feel, is stupid or wrong for making her son stay in booster seat no matter the age (or anyone else lurking on this thread). She did not mention if she tried the 5 step test, so if she comes back to this thread maybe she'll let us know. If he passes, mute point. If he is small for his age, then he should stay in the booster, however the choice is still up to the OP in the end. Criteria set forth by NHTSA are guidelines. Most are not hard and fast rules because they know there are thousands of different size and age scenarios out there. Heck, I'd be please as punch if more parents even knew what a booster was and actually used one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
My understanding on booster seat use is that 8 years or 80 pounds is what was found to be safest, but was unable to be passed. What was passed (originally - maybe has changed since) was 6 years or 60 pounds.

NHTSA's official position on booster seat use is: "all children who have outgrown child safety seats should be properly restrained in booster seats until they are *at least* 8 years old, unless they are 4'9" tall." Children can move to a seat belt when they can firmly place their back against the vehicle seat back cushion with their knees bent over the vehicle seat cushion." (refer to the 5 step test I already posted for additional guidelines) So that is their guideline and not a rule per se. They have to take into account the many different age and height and weight scenarios of the general population.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
I am also curious as to the ages of DC's two sons who are in seats.

64 pound, 49" tall, 6 yo in a Britax Husky. 34 pound, 38" (or so) 2 1/2 yo in a Britax Marathon (just turned him forward facing). Both are 5 point restraints and I will keep them both in a 5 point restraint until I don't have any other choice.

Our experiences, both internal and external frame a lot of the parenting decisions we make. Child restraint use is a choice that many parents make uninformed. There are many reasons for that. I am certain most parents I check and install seats for have their children's best interests at heart. I am sure you do too Kirsten. Given time, I will witness the effects of "peer pressure" and my boys growing independance. But as long as I know what I know, have been through what I've been through, and assisted at multiple car accident scenes and seen what wrecks do to people's bodies of all ages, I will not ever put my children's embarassment ahead of his safety in a car.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## frowningfrog (Aug 25, 2005)

The law in my state says that a child of 80lbs or less must be in some sort of seating device.
My 10 yr old is in a booster seat and is only 60lbs...and she will stay there until she reaches the weight limit or she grows tall enough so the shoulder belt fits...


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## beaglesarebad (May 14, 2004)

I guess it would depend on his weight and height, but seriously unless he was something like 50 pounds or less I wouldn't require the booster.

FWIW I still can't sit in some back seats and have my feet touch the floor. So I wouldn't pass some of that 5 point safety test either.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beaglesarebad*
FWIW I still can't sit in some back seats and have my feet touch the floor. So I wouldn't pass some of that 5 point safety test either.

I have helped a few mamas find seating positions that were better for them because of their short stature. Some find it is difficult to drive their own cars without the shoulder belt hitting them straight across their neck and choking them. Vehicle manufacturers produce cars without much thought to accomodating all sizes of people and most definately not producing cars to be child friendly.









Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beaglesarebad*
FWIW I still can't sit in some back seats and have my feet touch the floor. So I wouldn't pass some of that 5 point safety test either.

Your feet do not have to touch the floor. Your knees have to bend comfortably over the edge of the back seat with your rear against the back of the seat (i.e. no slouching to make knees reach edge of seat).


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

My oldest will be eleven next month and is still in a booster. The lap/shoulder belts go too high on his neck. I have my oldest three kids (the other two are 9 and 8) in booster seats. My youngest will be five next month and is still in his five point seat. My kids very rarely say anything about having to sit in the booster seats and honestly I am guessing it is because they don't get a choice. They sit in the booster b/c that is what is the safest at this point. I would rather have my son be slightly annoyed with me (on the few occassions he has commented about the booster) than seriously injured or dead. There are some things that shouldn't be up for discussion IMHO.


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
I have helped a few mamas find seating positions that were better for them because of their short stature. Some find it is difficult to drive their own cars without the shoulder belt hitting them straight across their neck and choking them. Vehicle manufacturers produce cars without much thought to accomodating all sizes of people and most definately not producing cars to be child friendly.









Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


So should this momma be in a booster seat?
What about small people(midgets and dwarfs)?
My tiny aunt who is only 4'1o and 90 lbs?
Where do you draw the line?
What if her ds stops growing?Should he get his drivers licence in a booster seat and drive to college with his buddies in a booster seat????


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Yes, they should have some modifications to the car seat so that they are safe. My grandmother always drove with several firm pillows (one under her, at least one behind her) so that the seatbelt would fit her properly. Unfortunatly car seats and belts are designed for fully grown men for the most part.

-Angela


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
What I don't want the OP to feel, is stupid or wrong for making her son stay in booster seat no matter the age (or anyone else lurking on this thread).

I don't want the OP or anyone else to feel stupid either. The OP is clearly questioning if she is right or wrong. When we are sure of our position, we don't ask for input. It is hard to "read" tone online. It is a fine line to walk and I often find people on MDC to agree with whatever the OP or the majority of posters are saying. There is a lot of "let me agree with you and make you feel better". I think that is great if the person is making a good choice. I really got the feeling that the OP was having a hard time transitioning from her firstborn being little to being a pre-teen. I just want her to factor in how little risk benefit is being gained and how much it could hurt him emotionally. We are not talking about my seven year old complaining about being made to sit in a booster when none of her friends have in two years. The boy will be 12.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
I am certain most parents I check and install seats for have their children's best interests at heart. I am sure you do too Kirsten. Given time, I will witness the effects of "peer pressure" and my boys growing independance.

I have been to the car seat clinics to have my seats checked/reinstalled tighter. I have gotten new seats when the ones we used for older siblings were over five years old, even though they hadn't been in an accident and appeared to be fine. I have shelled out the money for two Britax seats (we have one in each car so we don't have to reinstall once we get the seat in nice and tight). My kids ride in boosters til they are eight. I understand the importance of keeping kids safe in the car.

I also think that it is important to take into account the emotional well being of a 12 year old boy. I would be VERY upset if anyone read my comments and let their six year old ride in just the car seat belt without a booster because he or she was embarrassed or felt babyish. I just think that six and twelve are two VERY different ages. We still don't know what the OP's son weighs.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
I just want her to factor in how little risk benefit is being gained and how much it could hurt him emotionally. We are not talking about my seven year old complaining about being made to sit in a booster when none of her friends have in two years. The boy will be 12.

And it's a safety device to keep him from being PARALYZED or KILLED in certain types of accidents. It's NOT a baby device or toy or anything of the sort and adults need to start explaining that to kids AND to other adults. Until people start viewing booster seats as beneficial and necessary, we'll always have someone worried about "looking like a baby" or "not cool". Should this same poster let her son go biking without a helmet because his friends are laughing at him?

No one is telling her that her son MUST stay in a booster seat. She is being given the test to see if he can be without one. If he can be, great, the issues is resolved. And if he is too small, well then the fact remains he is safer in a booster. I will say again, age has NOTHING to do with this. It's size. If his friends can't understand the logic that he is smaller than them and this keeps him safer in a car accident, then perhaps they aren't the type of friends he needs.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

No, I would not make my 12 year old sit in a booster seat. A backless booster is not in and of itself a life saving device and seat belts can still be improperly positioned when using one. A child's head should not exceed the height of the back of the seat when he is seated in the booster. Actually I think its the tip of the ears but I am not certain.

You may want to read this article that the authors of Freakonomics published:

http://www.freakonomics.com/times0710col.php

They question whether car seats are any better than seat belts at protecting children over the age of 2.

I am in no way adovcating ditching car seats for young children but it is an interesting article and includes a bit of research that they did including a memo from the Institute for Highway Safety back in 2001 that "The Institute also is concerned that NHTSA's public recommendations for booster seats are getting ahead of science and regulations for child passenger safety. For example, the agency recommends that all children weighing 40-80 pounds and less than 57 inches in heightshould ride in belt-positioning booster seats (www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
people/injury/childps/boosterseat/CPS_Week.pdf). As a result, child
safety advocates around the country are promulgating these guidelines,
and many states now are passing laws. These recommendations, however,
are based on a fairly limited study conducted in the early 1990s in
which seat belt fit was evaluated for about 150 children ages 7-12
positioned in the rear seats of three different vehicles. Belt fit was
evaluated with the seat belt alone and with three different booster
seat models. Although this study provided an important demonstration
of the potential for adult belts to be poorly positioned, by itself it
does not support these global recommendations and laws."

Maggie


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TechnoGranola*
And it's a safety device to keep him from being PARALYZED or KILLED in certain types of accidents. It's NOT a baby device or toy or anything of the sort and adults need to start explaining that to kids AND to other adults. Until people start viewing booster seats as beneficial and necessary, we'll always have someone worried about "looking like a baby" or "not cool". Should this same poster let her son go biking without a helmet because his friends are laughing at him?

No one is telling her that her son MUST stay in a booster seat. She is being given the test to see if he can be without one. If he can be, great, the issues is resolved. And if he is too small, well then the fact remains he is safer in a booster. I will say again, age has NOTHING to do with this. It's size. If his friends can't understand the logic that he is smaller than them and this keeps him safer in a car accident, then perhaps they aren't the type of friends he needs.









:


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## LISSA~K (Jun 30, 2005)

Glad to run across both sides of this issue here. My almost 10 year old is also petite, and I have her in a backless booster 90% of the time. I make allowances if we have to sqeeze other people in the middle seat or if she is having friends ride with her. I told her that she is trapped until she hits 80 pounds, so she told me she's going start eating more!


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## beaglesarebad (May 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
I have helped a few mamas find seating positions that were better for them because of their short stature. Some find it is difficult to drive their own cars without the shoulder belt hitting them straight across their neck and choking them. Vehicle manufacturers produce cars without much thought to accomodating all sizes of people and most definately not producing cars to be child friendly.









Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

What is up with that? That's how the seat belt hits me too. My 15 yr old dd who is learning to drive fits in the car better than I do, she's taller.

As for the OP. Can you consider a compromise? Can he ride up front while being dropped off to and from school? School zones are very low speeds and the chances of injury at those speeds aren't as high as a high speed crash. If you are going over a certain speed limit make him ride in the booster, and certainly for freeway trips? And if he fails, or perhaps the better wording is "factors out" this safety test then he needs it and thats that.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
So should this momma be in a booster seat?
What about small people(midgets and dwarfs)?
My tiny aunt who is only 4'1o and 90 lbs?
Where do you draw the line?
What if her ds stops growing?Should he get his drivers licence in a booster seat and drive to college with his buddies in a booster seat????

When you can discuss booster seat use in a non-sarcastic or non-baiting manner, let me know and I'll be happy to respond. Your post does nothing for this conversation.

DC


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9*

You may want to read this article that the authors of Freakonomics published:

http://www.freakonomics.com/times0710col.php

Maggie

There are so many things wrong with this article, I don't even know how to begin to address them. From their "test" to their conclusions....wrong, wrong, 100% wrong. It is mis-information like what is included in this article, that will continue to endanger many many children and perpetuate the cycle of non-use and mis-use which will kill and injure our kids needlessly.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

That particular article was written by a economist who neglected to factor in the statistic that unless a seat is installed by a child seat technician, 90% of car seats are installed incorrectly by parents.

The facts of the matter are that if parents bothered to have seats properly installed and used them properly, the statistics would be very different.

And to the OP, if your child does not pass the five point test mentioned here several times, than yes he should continue to be in a booster.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:

Now they're saying that kids shouldn't sit in the front until 15.
I don't get why they're making it an age thing, unless they're just going to make it 18 and be done with it. There is no magic age where it becomes safer than, or even as safe, to ride in the front, is there? So maybe we should just never allow minors to do so, just like we don't let them operate meat slicers or forklifts. Otherwise, how does it make sense to make a 5'10" 180 lb 14 year old ride in the back, but a 5'2" 100 lb 25 year old can ride in front? I think pinkmilk has a valid point. Where DO we draw the line?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
I don't get why they're making it an age thing, unless they're just going to make it 18 and be done with it. There is no magic age where it becomes safer than, or even as safe, to ride in the front, is there? So maybe we should just never allow minors to do so, just like we don't let them operate meat slicers or forklifts. Otherwise, how does it make sense to make a 5'10" 180 lb 14 year old ride in the back, but a 5'2" 100 lb 25 year old can ride in front? I think pinkmilk has a valid point. Where DO we draw the line?

I agree it should be a size thing. AND they should continue to do more to improve safety of cars and seatbelts for EVERYONE. The airbags with switches are a step in the right direction, but I want more.

-Angela


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm a medium sized woman height wise, and I still don't think the lowest setting for the seat belt is quite low enough.

Anyway, people should get over their hangups about what things look like and keep their kids safe. Period.

Who cares what your friends think? That's what we need to teach our kids.

Of course my kid is 6, and he doesn't care much what I think. But he's still in a booster seat. And he's quite tall.

And my 2 year old is in a five-point seat, though his height is becoming an issue for his current seat. Not sure how I will fit a bigger seat into my too small car....Hmm.....

mv


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
I don't get why they're making it an age thing, unless they're just going to make it 18 and be done with it. There is no magic age where it becomes safer than, or even as safe, to ride in the front, is there? So maybe we should just never allow minors to do so, just like we don't let them operate meat slicers or forklifts. Otherwise, how does it make sense to make a 5'10" 180 lb 14 year old ride in the back, but a 5'2" 100 lb 25 year old can ride in front? I think pinkmilk has a valid point. Where DO we draw the line?

The line is drawn for most at puberty. At puberty the bones are fully formed and the illiac spines are formed. The body is mature and is physically capable of taking on crash forces. Crash forces are experienced much differently in a child versus an adult. As a child grows and changes, so does their restraint needs in a vehicle.

DC


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## Mamajamz (Oct 31, 2002)

DH is taking an online driving course (due to speeding ticket.







) He just learned that boosters are recommended for children 4 ft. 10 inches and under. Beyond that they don't need one, and maybe even should not use one since the belt may not fit properly. The danger in little ones under the height requirement without the booster is that they could slip under the belt in an accident. To follow logic, I could see how if a child is taller than the height for a booster, then he could be "top heavy" as the belt would hit him lower than it should.


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## toddlermama16 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Please don't!. If you mean the triangular fabric things that pull the upper belt down, those are extreamly unsafe (because they also pull the lap belt up--- over the abdomen instead of over the hips).

How does your DS feel about the booster? If he dislikes it and can "make" himself sit correctly, that would be an option. Then, it puts it on him--- if he is slumping, or pulling the belt out of postion, he needs help. Is there somewhere in the car that the belt would fit him better. DD is only 7 now, and I really can't imagine her being safer in a booster at 11.5 than without, but I aslo assume she will be well over 4'9" at that point.


ITA. Do not use a seatbelt adjuster. Either your ds fits okay in a regular seatbelt in the backseat, or he still needs the added height of the booster. The in-between routes just don't work well, and really aren't safe.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I had a booster seat until I was in the 3rd grade in the 1980's because I weighed less than 40 lbs. I remember being the *only* kid I knew who used one.

You know, looking back on it, I'm glad my parents did it. I was paranoid that others would see it and think I was a special needs child, but I was pretty stealth about getting in and out of the car in a way that no one could see it. I'm glad my parents chose my safety over what was or wasn't cool.

Really, why do people care so much about making sure their kids are cool? I mean I play the game a little bit and my child dresses stylishly and all but I'm always going to draw the line at safety. If you're doing the right things in life, you are likely to get teased for them at some point along the way. Who cares? I know words can hurt, but if you're providing a healthy home life and a good foundation for psychological health, why are you worried about the digs kids are going to get in life anyways. Maybe you could help your kids to learn how to laugh about some of the things like having to ride in a car seat. We're not going to be able to shield our kids from all teasing. I don't go out of my way to do things that would cause it but I'm not trying to make a societal 'follower' either who conforms to every standard of 'cool'. If you aren't able to look back at some of the mortifying things that happened to you in your pre-teen years and laugh now, you're missing out. Kids are resilient about that stuff if they learn how to work through it. All in all, I expect my kid will be teased at some point and I can't protect them from that. But, brain injury, spinal injury, and death, now that's something all of us parents can do something to prevent.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Am I the only one who keeps thinking it seems like a bit of a red flag for trollish that the OP hasn't come back and posted what her child weighs - or any other comments on all that has been said in the thread?


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## kcetjmgn (May 3, 2006)

I have an 11.5 year old son who still rides in a booster seat. He is 72 lbs, 54", and in 6th grade. He's just a relatively small child. All of his brothers are still in carseats as well, and will all be until they meet the minimum requirements of 8 years, 80 lbs, and 59 inches.

I read this topic yesterday and had the conversation with ds1 this morning regarding the topic. He understands that we're putting his safety first. I asked him if his friends know that he rides in a booster seat and he said he mentioned it the other day when they measured themselves in class. He measured himself at 57" and was excited because he was "tall enough to stop riding in a booster seat". He said the kids laughed for a minute and by the time they were on to their next class, had forgotten all about it.

I also told him this morning that if he does get backlash about it, he can blame it on me - you know, "My parents are so embarassing - can you believe they still make me ride in a booster seat?" What kid doesn't have to do something he or she finds embarassing? He'll have found a common ground, even if it's not the same issue.

Oh yeah - hi, I'm new.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
Am I the only one who keeps thinking it seems like a bit of a red flag for trollish that the OP hasn't come back and posted what her child weighs - or any other comments on all that has been said in the thread?

ITA. Maybe she got busy?


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcetjmgn*
I have an 11.5 year old son who still rides in a booster seat. He is 72 lbs, 54", and in 6th grade. He's just a relatively small child. All of his brothers are still in carseats as well, and will all be until they meet the minimum requirements of 8 years, 80 lbs, and 59 inches.

I read this topic yesterday and had the conversation with ds1 this morning regarding the topic. He understands that we're putting his safety first. I asked him if his friends know that he rides in a booster seat and he said he mentioned it the other day when they measured themselves in class. He measured himself at 57" and was excited because he was "tall enough to stop riding in a booster seat". He said the kids laughed for a minute and by the time they were on to their next class, had forgotten all about it.

I also told him this morning that if he does get backlash about it, he can blame it on me - you know, "My parents are so embarassing - can you believe they still make me ride in a booster seat?" What kid doesn't have to do something he or she finds embarassing? He'll have found a common ground, even if it's not the same issue.

Oh yeah - hi, I'm new.









WELCOME to MDC! Way to go mama. Boosters are not uncool at all.









DC


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:

The one I am thinking of is a little clip, I don't know that it differs from the one you are talking about
I have the metal clips on the actual car seat that redirects the seatbelt to go across his shoulders.

But, he would have to be VERY small to not fit in a car's seat.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
I had a booster seat until I was in the 3rd grade in the 1980's because I weighed less than 40 lbs. I remember being the *only* kid I knew who used one.

.

I did not even know they HAD booster seats in the 1980s. I thought they were invented in the early 90s.

I'm so dang old.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
Am I the only one who keeps thinking it seems like a bit of a red flag for trollish that the OP hasn't come back and posted what her child weighs - or any other comments on all that has been said in the thread?

NO! no! sorry, i forgot i posted until ds brought it up again today.

he is about 72#.

i have been to see a tech twice. last time was one yr ago, and he about dropped when he saw i was using a booster. he told me he sees much younger kids all the time w/out one. when ds1 was almost 4, i ditched the carseat. we did have one of those boosters with the swing arm shield, but really never used it. then one day outside of Kmart they were having a safety fair, and i nosed around. someone gave me a coupon for a free booster, and some printouts, and i flipped! i was quite mad at myself, and he's used a booster ever since.

ds2 is in a 5pt, and will be as long as possible.

i pretty much know all the carseat "rules". ds1 doesnt pass the 5 step test. his body fits the seat, but the belt doesnt fit his body.

i know not to use the triangle slip-on thingies.

i guess i am really shocked that so many ppl here are worried about what others think of them and their kids. how many of you have kids with mohawks, or boys with hair to their waist, or girls with pink and blue hair? i guess if a kid can feel good about themselves while being different, that applies to booster seats. LOL

ds is homeschooled so no teasing there. his dad even has a seat for his car for the weekend visits. i dont think any of his friends there even know, let alone tease.

i have to admit why i want him in the front seat...i want company! i want to chat with him. i'm not planning to put him in the front b4 12, but i had intended to let up when 6 mos was up and he had his bday.

yk, he could grow quite a bit in 6 mos...

DC...is it totally wrong to do the booster in the front with the seat all the way back? it seems like a fair compromise.

oh, yeah, and i tried him in the front seat, and that belt actually fits him better w/out the seat than the back does.

last, i am really suprised by some of you...if its ok, can this just be between myself and any techs from now on? i obviously am concerned about his emotional needs, but i just dont want to have to read insensitive words. thanks to all who replied...i'm really starting to think i need to tell him it may not happen just yet.

BWB


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*

DC...is it totally wrong to do the booster in the front with the seat all the way back? it seems like a fair compromise.


I have forgotten to come back to threads too sometimes. Glad to see you back. Before I answer your question, I need to know a few things. What year and make is your car? Does it have airbags? If so, are they front and side, or front only? If side airbags installed, are they curtain? Where is your younger DS sitting?

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and momma to 2 sons in seats


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## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
i realize i am the worlds biggest dork. LOL i am making my 11.5yo ds use a low back booster in the back seat of the car. our state allows him to sit in the front at age 12. we have a passenger airbag, and he is slight of build. i am really starting to rethink letting him move up front.

can he sit up front and still use the booster?

is his emotional need to stop feeling "like a baby" more important than his physical safety?

neither the back nor the front belts fit him very well sans booster. maybe i should compromise and let him ditch the booster, but make him stay in the back?

any BTDT's?

thanks!

You are the one that asked for all these opinions. And they are just that. People's opinions. Nothing more.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

BlessedWithBoys- a great big







for you for keeping your kids safe. Pay no attention to the naysayers. Better a live "weird" kid than a dead popular one. I was always weird and quite proud of it.

-Angela


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
There are so many things wrong with this article, I don't even know how to begin to address them. From their "test" to their conclusions....wrong, wrong, 100% wrong. It is mis-information like what is included in this article, that will continue to endanger many many children and perpetuate the cycle of non-use and mis-use which will kill and injure our kids needlessly.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech/instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

They used actual stats provided by the govt which any of has access to and they even describe how in fact that got the results and how one can create queries like they did.

And they admit that their testing was a one time thing of a one scenario.

The quote from the Institute for Highway Safety is factual and does exist.

They are referring to fatalities and not injuries which they point out have been greatly reduced by the increased use of booster seats.

They point out they don't advocate non use of safety seats for young children but are questioning the value of booster seat for older children and I agree with them.

I do not believe that a backless booster seat is going to serve as a life saving or injury reducing device for a 12 year old and I would be more concerned that it could in fact lead to injury or death as the seat design may allow the belts to not be in the right positions or lay close enough to the child or elevate the child too high. I would be concerend that booster seats are not designed with 12 year old children in mind.

Backless booster seats are not a new thing and have been available since the 80's when car seat use became mandatory. The design of the seats seems not to have changed much if at all and its unlikely that back in the 80s they even considered children over the age of 4 to be sitting in them.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

m9...booster seats are desinged with height and weight in mind, not age. If the 12 year old in question is within the height and weight range, then the seat is desinged for him.

The study that you reference is extremely flawed, because, as I mentioned, it does NOT take into account the fact that 90% of child restraints are installed incorrectly. There is more than enough factual information out there that PROVES that a carseat/booster seat is by FAR safer than a regular seatbelt in a child too small for it.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
he is about 72#.

Make sure check his height against the booster seat manual. My DD's has 3 boosters, one which goes up to 52" height (full back and she grew out of it), one up to 54" (another full back model), and her new backless which goes up to 57".

If he is taller than the height for the booster, he won't be safe. I am not sure what you'd do if you had a child that was too tall for boosters but yet didn't pass the 5 point test. That would be a toughy! Not saying you're in this situation, I am simply wondering about those who are (heck my DD could be in this situation eventually but hopefully not!). I know our centre seat in the rear has the seat belt at a lower height than the outboard seats which is great for kids who've outgrown boosters. I REALLY wish I had height adjustors on the outboard seats as well. Our vehicle only has those for the front seats.


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamajamz*
DH is taking an online driving course (due to speeding ticket.







) He just learned that boosters are recommended for children 4 ft. 10 inches and under. Beyond that they don't need one, and maybe even should not use one since the belt may not fit properly. The danger in little ones under the height requirement without the booster is that they could slip under the belt in an accident. To follow logic, I could see how if a child is taller than the height for a booster, then he could be "top heavy" as the belt would hit him lower than it should.

i am just a hair taller than 4'10 and to be honest reading this thread i keep wishing they would make a booster seat for adults cuz i bet it would make car seats a lot more comfortable for me, i weight enough to be safe but that doesn't mean the seat belts fit me

and to the original poster when i have kids they will be in car seats and booster seats until they are tall enough and weight enough to not need one, or if they end up shorter than me then at some point they won't need to be in a seat but they would be older than 12


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

i have a 98 sunfire. no side airbags.

we have a LB turbobooster. iirc, the height goes by the ears and the headrest. i could be wrong, and then would feel really dumb...lol

my 4yo has a 5pt seat in the back. right now they are both outboard, but if/when ds1 comes up front, ds2 will go to the center spot.

would pics (faceless, of course) help? i'll see what i can do if so.

thanks to those offering support. i dont mind hearing ppl who differ from myself, actually i am grateful. i must have been hormonal, cuz i felt some were...anyway, i'll be back to see what else is posted.


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## Tofu the Geek (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys*
we have a LB turbobooster. iirc, the height goes by the ears and the headrest. i could be wrong, and then would feel really dumb...lol

We just bought a backless Graco turbo booster for DD as she had grown out of one of her high back boosters. Her backless Graco booster manual says that it is good up to 57". We don't use the seat belt adjustor that came with it as in the centre seat, the seat belt fits her properly in the booster and the adjustor doesn't do a thing. We keep it attached though in case the booster has to be used in another vehicle.

Page 17 of this manual is what it says in my manual as well (my manual may be the same, I just don't have it handy to compare) http://www.gracobaby.com/assets/pdfs.../ISPB001BC.pdf

Is this the seat you have as well?


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
m9...booster seats are desinged with height and weight in mind, not age. If the 12 year old in question is within the height and weight range, then the seat is desinged for him.

The study that you reference is extremely flawed, because, as I mentioned, it does NOT take into account the fact that 90% of child restraints are installed incorrectly. There is more than enough factual information out there that PROVES that a carseat/booster seat is by FAR safer than a regular seatbelt in a child too small for it.

They do take into account improperly installed safety seats.

They also proved thru their own testing that a 3 yr child would sustain more injury with a seat belt but that an oder child - 6 yr child - might not.

Disregarding their anaysis for a moment I find it disquieting that the Institute for Highway Safety had reservations advocating boosters for children 7 to 12 years old.

Maggie


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamajamz*
boosters are recommended for children 4 ft. 10 inches and under. Beyond that they don't need one, and maybe even should not use one since the belt may not fit properly.

My daughter was about 8 when she reached that size. I took her out of the booster at that point, too. We had no passenger side airbag then, so she was already in the front.

I think the benefits of having her next to me where we could talk more easily more than outweighed any possible additional risk to having her in the front.

dar


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
The line is drawn for most at puberty. At puberty the bones are fully formed and the illiac spines are formed. The body is mature and is physically capable of taking on crash forces. Crash forces are experienced much differently in a child versus an adult. As a child grows and changes, so does their restraint needs in a vehicle.

I'm genuinely curious. What about pg and pp mamas with all that relaxin in their systems? And what about elderly or even middle aged folks with osteoporosis? And other diseases affecting the skeletomuscular systems? Arthritis, fibromyalgia, etc. There are probably more adults with some sort of problem than without. Aren't these folks just as vulnerable?

Also, I always had the impression that kids' bones being not fully formed made them less vulnerable to injury, not more. That they're kinda squishy and bouncy. And that when they do break, they heal more easily and better. How is this different for things like falling out of trees vs car accidents?

Got any links or books on the subject you can recommend?


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
Unfortunatly car seats and belts are designed for fully grown men for the most part.

-Angela

You're not kidding... I'm barely 5 feet tall, and while driving have to sit with my seat all the way forward so I can reach the pedals. It hurts my back, but I don't think I could see adequately with the back reclined... and I don't want to test that.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

My dd's were in boosters til they were 10 and 11 (respectively) and hit 4 foot 9 inches.

They were not teased becasue my mainstream, wealthy community is also made up of ALOT of neurotic moms and they were by far not the only ones whose cars contained the low back boosters.

In fact this emphasis on safety is one thing I really like about this community. No guns in homes, lots of careful careful moms.


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