# What led you to the decision not to circ.



## Jude-a-buddies-mom (Aug 25, 2004)

So after having a discussion on facebook with a "friend" who had some bad information about the intact penis I made me wonder what is the best way to educate others. What were the reasons that led you not to circumcise? For us it was our Bradley teacher who provided us with information about circumcision. It was actually a really easy choice for my dh and I to make. Once we found read about the history of circumcision, what circumcision actually was, and what the purpose of the foreskin was we decided not to. It is such a difficult topic to educate others on becuase there is so much misinformation. Appreciate any information you can share.

I also wanted to share that my younger sister said that she would have circumcised her first had it been a boy but after I didn't circumcise my son she researched it and now has two intact boys. She also educated her sister in law about it and she was planning still to do it but my sister gave one last chance and talked to her about it right after her sister in law gave birth and now she has an intact son


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

This board led me not to circ. Well, specifically the article in Mothering mag, and then being directed here. I didn't think of it as a big deal before because I was never challenged to. All it took was a tiny bit of info to get me questioning the necessity of it, and then the more I read, the more resolute I became


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I was pregnant with my twins in 1994, before I had internet access, and I didn't even realize that circumcision was controversial. When DH and I talked about it, we both had the same attitude (luckily!), that circumcision was more of a social thing than medical, and we didn't feel compelled to perpetuate the trend. I remember one of us saying "It is going to end eventually - it might as well start with us!"

Some aspects of our discussion (again, strictly from gut feelings, not research):

1. That's GOT to HURT!
2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. Boys are born with a foreskin; it must be there for a reason.
4. "Look like Daddy" wasn't a concern.

We did ask our family doctor if there were medical reasons to circumcise, and while he mentioned UTIs and STDs, his opinion was that they weren't significant enough to justify infant circumcision. That's lucky too, because we trusted this doctor, and probably would have had it done if he had pushed.

Now that I know a LOT more about both circumcision and foreskins, if I would to boil it down to one sentence it would be "There is nothing wrong with my son's penis - thank goodness he doesn't need an operation!"


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

From the time I learned what circumcision was, I have been against it. I just didn't understand why one would remove a natural part of the body. It didn't make sense.

It wasn't until I decided to have children that I really looked into the issue and became informed on the the anatomy of the foreskin and the procedure of circumcision. But before I had the facts, I had an instinctual sense that it was wrong.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Unfortunately it wasn't this one fact or aha moment for me. I do not have a boy, but when I was pregnant and we didn't know if DD was a boy or girl, someone gave me a little pamphlet on caring for intact penises. Which was great, it got me thinking. The pamphlet was not very in-your-face at all, just basically saying circumcision wasn't necessary, and cleaning of an intact penis was no big deal.

Unfortunately that line of reasoning, while enough to put a question mark in my head, was not enough to make me decide against circumcision. Rather than researching it further, which I should have done but I already felt so overwhelmed by all the research and unconventional decisions I was making (I was having a home birth, I was getting concerned about vaccines, etc. - but was doing each of these on my own, not as part of a community or a global set of natural parenting values) I just talked to my husband. He's circ'd. He said we should do it.

I can only hope that if we found it was a boy (we did find out with an u/s) that I would have looked into it further. But I never really felt strongly for or against circumcision until reading through some of the threads here for a while. I think that the pamphlet I read could have served me better if it was a little more assertive about the issue - that circumcision is an injury to the body, that it carries the usual risks of surgery, that it's not just a little "snip" (I definitely thought of it that way, like a little flap of skin with no nerves or something - a really dumb assumption in retrospect), that it's not cleaner and in fact the foreskin's purpose is partly for protection and cleanliness.

I am honestly not sure how I would have reacted to an analogy to female circumcision at that point - if it were used, I would have needed to address the "male and female circumcision are not at all the same" argument. Because I certainly used to believe that they were not the same and that it was crap tot compare them. I mean, obviously there are differences in the procedure, it's different anatomy and the results are a bit different, but it's still genital mutilation. But I'm not sure if I was ready for that line of reasoning right away.


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## mum4boys (Aug 10, 2005)

What a weird question. I have never had the desire to cut off a part of my child's body.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum4boys* 
What a weird question. I have never had the desire to cut off a part of my child's body.

I don't think that comment was helpful at all. Obviously the culture in the USA supports circumcision as being a good choice. There are threads that ask "Why did you decide to home birth" and I could say "What a weird question. I never had the desire to go to the hospital when I wasn't sick." But I wouldn't want to be that judgemental toward people who had been told all their lives that the hospital is the only safe place to have a baby - just like we've all been told that circumcision is necessary, cleaner and safer.


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## listipton (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, we had just found out we were having a boy and I made a wise-crack about 'don't worry honey, I'm not going to be one of those crazy women who insists that her child not be circumcised'. Later that week, I was baby shopping and came across an issue if Mothering that was featuring circ. All I had to do was read the article that included a drawing of what happens, and I got that horrid knot in my stomach and knew it was something we really would NOT be doing. That led me to MDC and these boards where I found an extensive list of books to research further. Thankfully, he saw all the reading I had done and trusted it and it hasn't been an issue since. I am forever thankful that our first child was a girl because if she had been a he, I wouldn't have even known what was involved. Now I'm that crazy lady who posts pro-intact articles on my facebook and occasionally starts heated conversations about 'choice'. Somewhere in there, I know that I am opening the door for friends who have never even thought about RIC, and hopefully educating them in the process.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

i didnt really know better, so i circ 2x and regret it, but what caused the paradigm shift for me was being present at ds2's circ in the peds office at 1wk old, and yes he had pain meds, it didnt make a difference, the screaming was primal and horrific and my 7yo son and i held each other and cried but it was too late. i dont plan on ever having any more kids, but if i did i would not circ.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

We don't have any boys yet, but they'll be intact if we do.

I remember reading about female circ at some point years and years ago and there was some cognitive dissonance there about male circ, but since I was far from having kids, I never took it any further.

When I was TTC I was looking for breastfeeding info and landed here at MDC. I had noticed the CAC forum, but for some reason thought that the case was a class action lawsuit or something (No idea where that came from







)

Then when I was pregnant w/ DD I started exploring the other parts of MDC. I clicked on CAC and started reading and maybe 2 hours later, after viewing part of a circ video, I told DH that we weren't going to be circing any of our kids. After a few questions, DH said ok and that was that.


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## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

I don't even remember what it was that convinced me...I didn't even find this board until my DS was a month old. But I remember thinking about it and thinking that even if it was for the better, I just knew I couldn't bring myself to do it. Once a saw a video of one being done that was it for me. After I found this board and read up on it some more I was so relieved that I went with my gut instincts.

I even found out that my brother is intact after I told my mom about my decision. I had no idea! I just assumed that he was circ'd.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

With the first circumcision I witnessed in nursing school, I knew it was something I would never, ever do to my child.


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## Jude-a-buddies-mom (Aug 25, 2004)

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I have never read the Mothering articles on the case against circumcision do you think if I had this it would useful to give to other moms or would you recommend other resources?


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

Finding out from crunchy friends that the foreskin is (among other things) fused to the glans like a fingernail. I couldn't imagine ripping off a baby's fingernail so that gave me the first gut reaction to say "maybe not" (since my husband is 110% pro circ). Then I looked for more information** here and on the web and my "maybe not" became an "over my dead body."

**The fact that the complications of circ (meatal stenosis, for example) are more common than anything the circumcisers claim that it fixes -- that some of the things that I thought were normal about penises are actually the results of a too-tight circ -- the fact that the later in life circs that you get threatened with if you don't want to circ your newborn are usually unnecessary -- etc


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The very idea of allowing a Dr. to cut on the genitals of a child of mine made me sick. I was never going to circ long before I knew I had an option. I was just going to refuse until I went home with the baby. I didnt learn all the other things I know now until I got internet access and after ds was born in 04.

So for me it was a gut instinct from the beginning.


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## arianascrunchymama (Dec 9, 2009)

I sobbed while watching a video on youtube of a circumcision and that fueled my quest to educate myself as much as possible!

The first thing I mention to women and men is that a man's foreskin has 2-3 times as many raw nerve endings as a women's clitoris and that any numbing agents are rarely used during RIC. To just women I mention the emotional side of circ as far as delayed bonding, how breastfeeding is effected negatively, and the motherly need to protect goes out the window. For men I use the later in life sexual side effects as well as how much of the penile skin is removed. That gets their attention 100% of the time!


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Bradley childbirth classes introduced us to the idea that it was optional and didn't HAVE to be done. Thank goodness.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mum4boys* 
What a weird question. I have never had the desire to cut off a part of my child's body.

I know this response sounded offensive to at least one poster, but I can see where Mum4boys is coming from.

I grew up in a family of intact men, and never really gave circumcision a thought until I was pregnant for the first time. It didn't take a whole lot for me to dismiss newborn circumcision as a twisted phenomenon, so it does indeed seem like an odd question for one to ask...."Why did you not surgically alter your child's genitals at birth?"

But for those who have been surrounded by circed men and the general mainstream, I suppose it doesn't sound like a weird question. It really IS an issue for them, because a lot of people seem to think the foreskin is a sort of birth defect.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

When I was younger, I assumed that I would do whatever my child's father wanted to do. Then I had a partner who was intact and was surprised at how much I preferred a penis that wasn't altered. It was not "gross" or "dirty" or "smelly" as my mother had told me. It was normal and did not require any extra upkeep that I ever noticed. I then started thinking about any future child I might have and started to research exactly what happened during a circ, and realized that it had absolutely no medical reason behind it. I decided then and there that it would only be done to my son over my dead body. Luckily, there was no issue, as I was a single mama from the time my son was born. No cutting here!


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I didn't even hear the term 'circumcision' until I was a teen. When I heard some kids gossiping about a boy that wasn't circ'ed I went home and looked it up on the internet. I found a few things about it not being necessary, but I still didn't understand what a foreskin was or what it looked like and how it changed the penis to have it cut off. I looked some more and came across a picture blog of a guy who was restoring. That was the first foreskin I'd ever seen and it wasn't even a natural one! I thought it looked funny, but I also knew that this guy was writing from his heart. He was hurt by what had been done to him. He was not happy with being circ'ed. He would not have made that choice, if it had been his to make.

At age 16, I thought to myself, "If even ONE male is not happy being circ'ed, then it is not fair to do it to any baby since we can't know what they would choose."

I didn't do any more research until I was expecting my first, but I'd already laid the foundation that it was wrong to alter a child's body so drastically. More research helped me find this board, and helped me learn about proper care and basically everything else I know now.

What I've found out from conversations from people is that you can argue every fact, statistic, medical article, your doctor's opinion, ect but nothing makes people "get it" like saying that a boy should have a right to choose what happens to his own penis. At least in my experience.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

The number one reason that lead me to be no circ was having a LTR with an intact man. That is what did it. As a teen, I did know some families with intact kids, but it didn't have the same impact as first hand experience.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jude-a-buddies-mom* 
Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I have never read the Mothering articles on the case against circumcision do you think if I had this it would useful to give to other moms or would you recommend other resources?

I absolutely recommend the article, you can print it out on the main mothering magazine site.


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## Bea (Apr 6, 2008)

For me and my husband it was easy.

I'm from a non circumcising culture, he's a circ'd American. I said no way, he asked questions did some research and returned furious, depressed and adamant that that would never happen to his son.

Up until the conversation he was of the opinion, if someone asked him if he'd circ a son, that yes he would, it's just what's done.

This is an incredibly intelligent, logical, rational and caring man but as an American, the culture was so ingrained with him, he'd actually never given the subject any thought and would've automatically maintained the status quo because, well that's what happens when you have a boy.

I bet there are millions just like him which is why you should never pass up the opportunity to stick up for the foreskin (I know I've saved at least one future one) even if it means being the weird penis lady (or man).


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jude-a-buddies-mom* 
What were the reasons that led you not to circumcise?joy

On the very first day of boarding school, in the communal shower room, I was shocked to realise that some boys had a penis that was different from my own. It was quite obvious that I was missing something and I instinctively knew that this was not a good thing. I have been against circumcision ever since. Obviously , the more I have learned, the more adamant I have become.


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## Babina's Mommy (Dec 27, 2008)

For me, it was my way of saying to my newborn son, "I love you so much that I want to keep you from harm"

Like some of you other parents, I was thinking that it instinctively felt wrong even before I read stats. Actually I didn't learn a lot about circumcision until after he was born and the decision to not circ had been made...I was kind of like ehhh, about the whole thing. But still didn't do the circ because it felt wrong.

After...I've read things here, watched a vid and that vid made me a thousand times glad that I hadn't done the circ. That was worth a thousand words and a million stats alone. I watched that Penn and Teller vid and that though, maybe meant to be funny, made A LOT of sense. My baby son, made me feel like an activist about this subject whereas beforehand I didn't care so much about the whole thing either way. So my son actually being here and seeing pics/vids of poor crying baby boys are the two things that made me not want to do it. Just the thought of someone doing that to my son makes my skin crawl and makes me want to flip out.

Lastly, a tiny part of me was glad I was sticking it to my inlaws. My mother inlaw asked, "WHY?!?!" when I told her I wasn't going to do a circ. It was just like she had never heard of such a thing. My father inlaw said you need a circ so your (and I quote)..."d*** will look right." and I said, "It does look right, that's why he was born that way" and he said nothing else. And lastly...I'm kind of a "Take THAT society!" kind of girl.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Babina's Mommy, I am also someone completly comfortable with going against the tide when I know that I am right.
The feelling I get knowing that I've saved my son from this harm is one of deep compassion and peace. I truly believe it's a humanitarian act and that this act of protection for my son radiates out into the universe. I hope he's a gentler more peaceful soul for not having to experience this pain and have it a part of himself to carry for life. Much as violence begets violence - the child spanked grows up to be a spanker with their own children - I hope that gentleness begets gentleness.
The point I am making is that I see it as a much bigger isue than just my own specific son. How we treat the young and the elderly speaks volumns about our society. I think we have a long way to go but I am eased to know that I have contributed kindly to the shaping of a new person.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I saw a photo of a baby in a circumstraint, draped, with a bloody penis. The photo made me cry and that was that.


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## rissierae (Feb 5, 2008)

I was always kind of indifferent to it, and didn't think too much about it. Though I did kind of wonder why people still did it. Then, after my sister had her first ds, some moms in my pottery class said, "Call her and tell her not to have him circ'd." One of the moms had a son my age and didn't circ. him, the other mom had to sons (about 3 and 5) who were circ'd. They both agreed that circumcision was not good, though they didn't really get into why. The mom that had her sons circ'd just said that she wished she hadn't.

Then later that year I became pregnant and started to think, what if this is a boy? Dh and I talked about it, and he said we might as well go ahead and do it because he didn't know anything about intact penises. But that wasn't a good enough reason for me. So I started asking other moms about it. And pretty much the consensus was that if they had, they wish they hadn't; and if they didn't, they were glad they didn't. At the same time, I was still in college and a girl in my film class was doing a short film on female circ. And that really made me want to educate myself a bit more too. So I think it was all of these things combined that really got me to do some investigating. Also this is what what was running through my head the whole time, "The decision to circ. will change a part of my son's body FOREVER, I'd better have a good reason for doing it." And I never found a good reason.


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## Lit Chick (Aug 15, 2007)

DH is circ'ed, and at first I thought I would go ahead and circ - I never encounted an intact man myself IRL. But then we decided to do natural birth, then homebirth, and no interventions... and I started to feel like circ'ing did not make any sense - were were making gentle and natural choices, and then... a cut for cosmetics? And THEN I started doing research and went from being on the fence to being totally against. It took a little bit to convince DH, and I had to be cautious so as not to hurt his feelings (he hates the "mutilation" argument, and I can understand that because it was done to him)... but he came around.
One of his first pro- arguments was the typical "we need to match" thing. And then I pointed out he only had one testicle - should we get rid of DS's extra? That ended that particular defense.


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
1. That's GOT to HURT!
2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. Boys are born with a foreskin; it must be there for a reason.
4. "Look like Daddy" wasn't a concern."

Yeah that!


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

I didn't even find out what it was until I was a teenager. I read about it in a *very* alternative childbirth book that I found in my high school library (1970's). So I found out about it in the context of reading very critically about all kinds horrible things that it was common practice at the time to do to new mothers and babies. Because of how I found out about it, I guess I've always had a negative view of it, but further research (especially once I had internet access) had made me much more adamant about it.

It was kind of a surprise to realize for the first time that all penises I had ever seen had been surgically altered. I had a hard time believing that it really mostly wasn't practiced outside the U.S., until I was leafing through a book about The Who and saw a picture of Keith Moon sprawled out naked. Then I realized it really was true.


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## mntnmom (Sep 21, 2006)

1. It's not medically necessary.

2. All surgery comes with risk.

It really was that simple for me. Luckily my DH was very much against having it done for mostly the same reasons, plus the sexual losses that go with it, so there wasn't a fight.


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## lacysmommy (Nov 10, 2004)

I have two younger brothers, one intact and one circ'ed. I never knew what circumcision was, just that they looked different from each other. I became aware of circumcision when I was a teenager. When I was 16, my cousin had a new baby and we were visiting her right after her son was born. I saw her change his diaper and saw his red, angry, newly circ'ed penis, and I decided I would never do that to my son.

It took a lot of discussion to leave my son intact, but he has a foreskin and I am so, so glad. That was a non-negotiable issue for me, but it's difficult being married to someone who is extremely pro-circ.


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

I just kinda started from the position that I need to have a reason to cut off parts of my children's bodies. I never found one, so we never did it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'd always intended to leave any boys I had intact. Then, when I was pregnant with ds1, my ex and I took a prenatal class (hospital based). During one of the classes, the instructor passed around a poster, showing various things we could expect when we had our newborn - "baby zits", "stork bites", the soft spot, etc. The poster included a picture of a freshly circ'd newborn penis, and an intact newborn penis. I took one look at the picture of the circ, turned to my ex, and said, "in case I wasn't clear before, that will be done to my baby over my dead body - and I may well come back and haunt the person who does it". He believed me.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I chose to notcirc because my son father(ex) is not circ'ed so I said well I will just leave him alone not really thinking too much of it . Then when I told mom about it she said he's going to be really sick with all these infections & diseases so I said okay I will look some more researching of what all those potential infection and disease problems which is how i came to find those were flawed studies saw more of the circ stuff which creeped me out totally even after I saw a video ofit I couldn't even get through the beginning wondering how they ever allowed that stuff to happen because i thought it was down right Cruel and twisted .

So then I spout off stuff to mom about it and she's like it's good you have a cause but she gets annoyed because she don't want to hear me talking about it .


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

I grew up around intact boys and men who were (or appeared to be) circ'd, so I just thought that the appearance was linked to the process of maturation for the longest time... I think I was also in high school when I found out about circumcision and saw my first intact penis on a post-pubescent male, which I thought was "weird" and I befriended a guy who was adamantly pro-circ, so I basically became pro-circ and was (ironically) relieved to find out that DH was circ'd when I met him.

THEN I saw a circ'd baby for the first time. He was at least a year old, too, so it wasn't a fresh cut, but it still looked painfully WRONG to me and that's when I started to question it. The more I found out about circumcision, the less sense it made to me. I started to discuss it with DH, who didn't want to discuss it, but kept insisting that it wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be and for a while i worried that this would be an issue when we had children. Then I became familiar with circumcision rates in Nova Scotia and talked to my friend, who has 2 intact boys, and I realized it wasn't even going to be an issue. It's not offered in hospital here. I'm sure it could be arranged if the parents asked, but it is not covered by medicare or insurance and we would have to go through the extra effort of arranging it ourselves, which I knew DH would not do, so I just dropped the subject, and it never came up after DS was born.


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## Lillitu (Jan 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 

1. That's GOT to HURT!
2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. Boys are born with a foreskin; it must be there for a reason.
4. "Look like Daddy" wasn't a concern.

"There is nothing wrong with my son's penis - thank goodness he doesn't need an operation!"


Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
From the time I learned what circumcision was, I have been against it. I just didn't understand why one would remove a natural part of the body. It didn't make sense.

It wasn't until I decided to have children that I really looked into the issue and became informed on the the anatomy of the foreskin and the procedure of circumcision. But before I had the facts, I had an instinctual sense that it was wrong.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Babina's Mommy* 
For me, it was my way of saying to my newborn son, "I love you so much that I want to keep you from harm"

All of the above reasons and more. I grew up with two little sisters, no brothers. It never came up as a child. I had a few partners along the way who were intact, but like most American women of my generation, most were circ'ed. The incirc'ed ones were "weird" and "different".

But the more I thought about it after I encountered them, the more I was shocked at how many men in the US were genitally mutilated. I thought of it that way. Yes, their penises still functioned, but were altered permanently, and it probably sucked when they were little to have it done!

When I found out I was having a son, my partner and I were immediately on the same page-NO CIRC. We had it spelled out in caps and bold type on our birthplan in at least 3 places, and my DP went with the baby while I recovered to ensure nothing was done to our child that we did not want.


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## blumooned (Nov 11, 2009)

I did some research while pregnant and decided that I leaned more to the side of not doing it, but was open to discussion with DP. He leaned a little more to the side of doing it, but wasn't sure, either. We were pretty much on the fence. When DS was born (and we found out he was a boy) we realized we actually had to make a decision. We went back & forth several times. We talked to the nurses (pretty ambivalent) & pedi at the hospital. The pedi was for it (but did say it was ultimately up to us) and we scheduled a circ for the next morning. For the most part we were more against doing it - I'm not really sure why we caved.

The morning before the circ, we had a new nurse who asked what we had decided. She flat out told us that she didn't think we should do it. (We really were still going back & forth trying to decide.) She told us several things that we already knew: there's really no medical reason, it's all cosmetic, etc. The thing she said that finally got us to stop & think was that she knew for a fact that the doctors who performed the circs did not allow their sons to be circ-ed. She said that most of the doctors who worked there had intact sons. I am forever grateful to her for being so direct, honest, & persuasive with us. Now that I have done more research, I am so happy DS is intact. I hadn't discovered MDC yet when I was PG, so did not read here until more recently.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
The feelling I get knowing that I've saved my son from this harm is one of deep compassion and peace. I truly believe it's a humanitarian act and that this act of protection for my son radiates out into the universe. I hope he's a gentler more peaceful soul for not having to experience this pain and have it a part of himself to carry for life. Much as violence begets violence - the child spanked grows up to be a spanker with their own children - I hope that gentleness begets gentleness.

I believe that there is much truth in this statement - so well said!!


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

I never even gave circ a second thought until I watched the Penn and Teller circ video. That was something I could not ever do to my child. But, I didn't become anti-circ until some years later when I started hanging out at MDC.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

I read a description of the procedure and saw some of the equipment that is used during the procedure (the board where they strap the LOs down is what sticks out in my mind). I was going to watch the video, because I figured that if I was going to do that to my newborn I should know exactly what "that" is. But I never made it that far because I was so grossed out by the stuff I did see. I've still never seen the video. And DS is intact!


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

My grandmother.

My uncle was damaged by circ. She always told us not to do it.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

When I was about 6 months pregnant, my mother asked me, "So, have you thought about circumcision?" And that lead to her telling me what she had seen as a maternity nurse. She sent me a book about saying no to circumcision and that was that. All her grandboys are uncirc'd because of her! Go Nana!!


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

My DH is intact and perfectly happy with it. I didn't become passionate about it until joining MDC when I was pregnant with DS1.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I think it was when I came to feminism and started thinking about issues of genital integrity in general. RIC just didn't make sense to me! I had an intact boyfriend at the time who really helped educate me, thankfully. Now I have one intact son and another on the way.


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## annablue (Apr 6, 2010)

It never would have occurred to me to circumcise. The foreskin is there for a reason; no need to mess with something that's not broken, right? My husband is intact, as are my brother and father, so circumcision wasn't really on my radar rather than "nah, seems pointless to me."

I already knew I wouldn't circumcise, but hadn't thought much about it other than that... but I began looking into it a little more just out of curiosity. After learning about the important function of the foreskin, the agony it causes the baby, and complications from circumcision, it only cemented my decision and made me passionately against it.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *To-Fu* 
I think it was when I came to feminism and started thinking about issues of genital integrity in general. RIC just didn't make sense to me! I had an intact boyfriend at the time who really helped educate me, thankfully. Now I have one intact son and another on the way.

That's actually very interesting. I have found that within the feminist movement (just in my person experience and what I have seen searching on line) That there is a HUGE disconnect between female genital integrity within the movement and RIC. I have (in my personal experience) never had a feminist agree that RIC is bad. Every one of my militant feminist friends who has a son has them them cut - granted it's only 5 of them...but in my circle, it's a 100% rate.

Can you please expand on your thought process on this?


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## MorgnsGrl (Dec 14, 2001)

DH and I were in complete agreement that we would never circ a child from the time we started talking about having one. DH is intact, his brothers are intact, his father is as well, so I didn't have to convince him, LOL! My mom just nodded and said it made sense when I told her medical professionals have come around to thinking that circ is unnecessary, and that we didn't want to cause our baby pain for a purely cosmetic surgery. Both of my nephews are/were intact, with the decision being made before DH and I had a chance to give our input.

We have friends who are planning to circ their baby boy when he's born this coming week, and it makes me incredibly sad.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoB* 
I chose to notcirc because my son father(ex) is not circ'ed so I said well I will just leave him alone not really thinking too much of it . Then when I told mom about it she said he's going to be really sick with all these infections & diseases so I said okay I will look some more researching of what all those potential infection and disease problems which is how i came to find those were flawed studies saw more of the circ stuff which creeped me out totally even after I saw a video ofit I couldn't even get through the beginning wondering how they ever allowed that stuff to happen because i thought it was down right Cruel and twisted .

So then I spout off stuff to mom about it and she's like it's good you have a cause but she gets annoyed because she don't want to hear me talking about it .

My mom tried that "it's so much cleaner" excuse on me. I just told her that X ( my boyfriend at the time ) was intact and it was fine. She never brought it up again.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
That's actually very interesting. I have found that within the feminist movement (just in my person experience and what I have seen searching on line) That there is a HUGE disconnect between female genital integrity within the movement and RIC. I have (in my personal experience) never had a feminist agree that RIC is bad. Every one of my militant feminist friends who has a son has them them cut - granted it's only 5 of them...but in my circle, it's a 100% rate.

Can you please expand on your thought process on this?

In general, this has been my experience also. There does seem to be a disconnect between what happens to boys and girls genitals. I know quite a few women IRL that wouldn't identify as feminists that are pro intact though.


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## annablue (Apr 6, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
That's actually very interesting. I have found that within the feminist movement (just in my person experience and what I have seen searching on line) That there is a HUGE disconnect between female genital integrity within the movement and RIC. I have (in my personal experience) never had a feminist agree that RIC is bad. Every one of my militant feminist friends who has a son has them them cut - granted it's only 5 of them...but in my circle, it's a 100% rate.

I had a discussion about RIC with several women who identified as feminists, and they actually became quite upset with me, saying that male and female circumcision are "not even close to being comparable" and to compare them was "an insult to the victims of female genital mutilation."


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annablue* 
I had a discussion about RIC with several women who identified as feminists, and they actually became quite upset with me, saying that male and female circumcision are "not even close to being comparable" and to compare them was "an insult to the victims of female genital mutilation."









That has pretty much been my experience as well - I'm hoping To-Fu comes back to elaborate


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annablue* 
I had a discussion about RIC with several women who identified as feminists, and they actually became quite upset with me, saying that male and female circumcision are "not even close to being comparable" and to compare them was "an insult to the victims of female genital mutilation."









I'm kind of mystified by this. I think of myself as a feminist, though not particularly militant, and I am totally opposed to surgically modifying childrens' genitals without a medical indication regardless of gender.

I always thought that feminist meant that you believed in gender equality. Maybe for some militant feminists it's more about hating men on some level, and thinking that circ will "even the score".

As to not being comparable to female circ, well, female circ isn't even comparable to female circ there are so many different kinds and levels of severity. Really, some are much, much worse than what we do to baby boys, but some are quite a bit _less_ severe. I've never understood this need for one-upmanship "my gender's suffering is worse than your gender's".

Maybe I don't fit in with the feminist mindset, even though I think of myself as a feminist.

I certainly want to teach my sons that women are their equal, and that they must always respect them and their rights to bodily autonomy. I feel that my decision to respect _their_ bodily autonomy is their first lesson in learning to respect others.

Anyway, it's late and I'm sort of babbling, but I don't see how circ can really be consistent with true feminist ideals. If we want sons who will respect women we have to start out as women who respect our sons. JMHO.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

*"If we want sons who will respect women we have to start out as women who respect our sons."*

Crunchy, I hope you don't mind, but I just took this and posted it to FaceBook on my wall. What a powerful statement! (And yes, I gave you credit for it. I wonder how many people will ask me who Crunchy Frog is?







)


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## mum4boys (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
I don't think that comment was helpful at all. Obviously the culture in the USA supports circumcision as being a good choice. There are threads that ask "Why did you decide to home birth" and I could say "What a weird question. I never had the desire to go to the hospital when I wasn't sick." But I wouldn't want to be that judgemental toward people who had been told all their lives that the hospital is the only safe place to have a baby - just like we've all been told that circumcision is necessary, cleaner and safer.

It was not about being judgemental. I have always found it a weird question always when asked if I am going to cut off part of my child's body. My first 4 children are males oldest being in his 20's. He was born in part of the country where midwives were illegal and the hospital at 95% formula fed upon leaving the hospital and routine circumcision was done without permission (my second son was circumcised without consent). First time I held my son, he was no longer intact. So I stand by my orginal statement. It is a weird question and it is a shame in this country we have to ask are you cutting off part of your kids body?


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## Carrie Posey (Jul 10, 2004)

I was just out of High school, so maybe 19, and a friend had a son, she wanted someone the baby knew to be there when he was circed. I went. It was so horrible there is NO WAY I would let anyone do THAT to my child, and no one did.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annablue* 
I had a discussion about RIC with several women who identified as feminists, and they actually became quite upset with me, saying that male and female circumcision are "not even close to being comparable" and to compare them was "an insult to the victims of female genital mutilation."









At the NOCIRC Symposium in Keele, UK, in 2008 a coalition of groups working against female genital mutilation and male genital mutilation was formed, a positive sign for overcoming the disconnect that is being discussed here.

http://genitalautonomy.com/

Gillian


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

I watched one.

That did it!


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crunchy Frog* 
I always thought that feminist meant that you believed in gender equality.

I think the word "feminist" has been distorted and twisted by the media and by those who equate feminism with women wanting to be men. Hence the qualifier "militant".

I think a lot of people hear the word "feminist" and think of man-hating, career-minded women who leave their kids with nannies and drink martinis.

Feminism is nothing more than the belief that _women should have the same *rights* that men have_....politically, socially, and economically. I don't know any women who don't believe that, to be honest. Really, I wouldn't *want* to know any women who don't believe that.

I am a feminist and find RIC to be a disturbing and horrific practice. I have several friends whose sons are intact, and they are all feminists, too.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
That's actually very interesting. I have found that within the feminist movement (just in my person experience and what I have seen searching on line) That there is a HUGE disconnect between female genital integrity within the movement and RIC. I have (in my personal experience) never had a feminist agree that RIC is bad. Every one of my militant feminist friends who has a son has them them cut - granted it's only 5 of them...but in my circle, it's a 100% rate.

Can you please expand on your thought process on this?

Sure!









I realized that there was a disconnect somewhere along the way with regard to genital integrity; it seemed perfectly normal to suggest that women deserve it, but when I suggested at a feminist club meeting in college that men deserve it too, most of the group became very upset. They suggested that it was unfair to compare the genital integrity of men and women, that RIC of men pales in comparison to what happens to women. They were not willing to concede any link between the two, and seemed insulted that I would suggest it.

That didn't seem right to me, so I spent a lot of time thinking, researching, and talking to people about it. I came to the conclusion that--to me, anyway--it's a human rights issue. Everyone deserves to be the boss of what happens to their bodies! Especially when it comes to genital integrity. To me, feminism and human rights are necessarily linked.

Since college, most women I have met who are against RIC are also feminists. I don't know if my college group was an anomaly in its beliefs, but I haven't encountered hostility about it among feminists since. I think the difference is that now I associate with feminist mamas who are older (in their 30s and up), whereas before I was dealing with a group of 19-22-year-olds (none of whom had children). Perhaps it was that shift in perspective that makes a difference?


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## ammiga (Jan 22, 2009)

What led me to the decision not to circ (if my baby due in July is a boy) was MDC. I used to kind of laugh off the emoticons in people's signatures saying that RIC was bad. I really didn't understand what was so bad about cutting of a little piece of unsanitary skin.

But, over time, my curiosity got the best of me. Especially when I would see so many people on the not vaccinating board with signatures that talked about not circing. So, I ventured over to this board to see what all the fuss was about.

I can honestly say that I was shocked by what I learned here. I think the term "foreskin" is incredibly misleading, and when I saw what a real foreskin looks like and how it is attached, I was mortified that people are cutting it off of babies. Mortified does not even begin to describe what I felt.

I approached dh about the subject, and he pretty much summed up my feelings before I came to TCAC. He said that of course any ds would be circumcised, why would we leave on an unsanitary piece of skin that can easily be cut off? When I taught him about the foreskin, he got really quiet. Even my dh had no idea what a foreskin was, what its purpose was, how it was attached, what it looked like, or anything. He is now completely against circumcision.

I think for a lot of people, knowledge is power. There are very few sources that tell you what a foreskin is and all that goes along with a circumcision. I truly believe that if more parents knew what they were doing, they wouldn't do it. When I talk to people about it, I don't bring up the male/female thing, I don't make harsh statements, or anything like that (unless the conversation develops that way). I simply tell them how the foreskin is attached and what it takes to remove it. The looks on my family and friends faces has been pure shock.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Ammiga,
Thank you for your powerful post. It's nice to know you did some researched and changed your mind. It has been written that "circumcision...the more you know, the worse it is", and I think that is so true. Too many people don't understand what the procedure involves and very few people in the U.S. realize the value and function of foreskin. Thank you so much for helping to inform your family and friends!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

The risks outweighed any possible benefits - aka, any risk of excess bleeding, cutting off more than they should, etc. I just wasn't able to stomach any of it. I told my now ex that it wouldn't happen. He initially disagreed, but then I pointed out that I wasn't legally required to put him on the BC (we never married) and he shut up about it.


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## MrsJewelsRae (Aug 19, 2008)

When I was expecting my first baby dh and I were determined to have him circumcised if it were a boy, we barely even discussed it- it was just what was done, plus dh was circ'd, it was a no brainer. I had never even really thought of it tbh. I was on another board and there was a debate about circumcision, and someone said "I think circumcision is a very UNloving act". I was furious! Was she saying I didn't love my baby who I had spent 2 long years ttc!!?? How dare she. But it got me thinking. Why was I so angry at that? She didn't say people who circ don't love their babies, she said the act itself was unloving. Could I argue with that? A little voice in the back on my mind started talking- didn't I owe it to my unborn baby to at least look into this procedure? I reluctantly decided I would research it, reluctant because I was afraid I would reconsider and not be able to go through with it, and I'm ashamed to admit that I thought an uncirc (which I now call intact!) penis would be gross.









All it took was one circumcision video and I was shaking and crying and SO upset that I might have chosen to do that my child for no good reason. There was NO WAY I would ever do that to my child, no matter what dh said. When he got home from work I showed him the video and he couldn't watch it through, "shut it off, shut it off! OMgoodness!" and I was so proud of him when he agreed we wouldn't be doing that should our baby be a boy.







I became anti circ very quickly, there really were no good reasons for RIC. All the excuses people used pro circ were now flimsy, w/o logic, vain, selfish or just a cop out (as in, dh has the penis, I let him decide).

When our baby was born we were thrilled to learn it was a boy.







I marvelled at his perfection and discovered that his little penis was perfect the way it was- it looked whole and healthy, and circ'd now seemed raw and wounded to me. That was 8 years ago, we've never had a single concern with it and certainly no regrets. I would like to think that once he was born I wouldn't be able to hand him over for anything, especially being cut!

I'm happy to say that I have saved my 3 nephews from being cut too! I had thought my brother and his wife had decided to have their son remain normal but a nurse friend of theirs got to them and pushed her biased agenda on them saying how unhealthy it was and disgusting, smelly, dirty, have to get circ'd as an old man when it hurts more (where's the logic in that anyhow!?).







On the day my nephew was born I wrote my brother a loving gentle letter with the truth about circumcision and they were so thankful to me that I did that in time to spare their son the pain and them the regret of something so unnecessary.


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## MrsJewelsRae (Aug 19, 2008)

Quote:

(my second son was circumcised without consent). First time I held my son, he was no longer intact. So I stand by my orginal statement. It is a weird question and it is a shame in this country we have to ask are you cutting off part of your kids body?
How awful!!







I cannot imagine the horror and rage that would make me feel to have it done to my son w/o my consent. I'm sorry. And you know, I see what you're saying and I agree with you, if I were still totally in the dark about circ I think your original statement might have turned on the lightbulb for me- well put. It _is_ a weird question and it is SAD that it is such a common practice in north america. My ds and a small handfull of other boys are the only ones I know IRL that are intact. Before I ever thought about it, it was so deeply ingrained in me that circumcision was NORMAL to me- how sad is that!? But I'm so far to the opposite now.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsJewelsRae* 
Before I ever thought about it, it was so deeply ingrained in me that circumcision was NORMAL to me- how sad is that!? But I'm so far to the opposite now.

Good for you - and congratulations on saving your nephews.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

A friend told me that it was similar to FGM, which I was already against. She sent me some links of what happens during a circ -- they were just from the sites that produce the products that are used for non-religious circs -- and that sealed the deal. Ick! Some of the facts about loss of sensitivity were important too.


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

When I found out I was having a boy I did a quick google search. It took about 5 minutes of perusing these sites to come to my conclusion. It was a no brainer for me. I asked DH what his opinion was, he asked why, I told him what I found and he agreed. Piece of cake!


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## thefreckledmama (Jun 1, 2007)

My initial reasoning for leaving my son intact was simple-it hurts, and I wasn't going to do that to my brand new baby. Any other information I found was to get my husband on board, and to answer questions from others when they came up.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Here is the evolution of my anti-circ stance:

In sixth grade sex-ed we had to learn the vocabulary word "foreskin" but the teacher said don't worry about that one since practically everyone has it removed at birth.

In my college library I happened upon a book, I just saw the cover, that had something to do with circumsicion being a human rights issue. It got me thinking.

I also worked at a day care center/baby nursery and saw that many of the boys were intact.

Later I had a boyfriend who was intact.

Then I met my husband, and even though he is circ'ed, he brought it up first that he thought any of our future children should be intact.

In our first two years as parents (to an intact boy) we personally knew THREE circ'ed boys who had problems with their penises requiring further surgery









And fast-forward to now, the mom of a 5.5 year old intact boy! We've never had any problems or issues and DH and I both consider ourselves intactivists.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Circ'ing was just not something we ever really considered. My mom is anti-circ (was a L&D nurse, now a midwife), my brothers are intact, and my DH also happens to be intact. Circumcision was just never the norm to me like it is for some. So, as a result, I've never gotten any negative comments from family - they would have been horrified if we had circed any of our 3 sons.


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## ~Amy~ (Jun 7, 2009)

For us it was a total non-issue. I'm not sure we even had a conversation about it. Circ's aren't even performed in our city so to get it done, you need to travel 2-3 hours away. Who is seriously going to go through that hassle with a newborn? Here it's pretty unusual to come across a circ'd little boy.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

i don't remember what i read or heard when i was pregnant w/ dd but i knew we wouldn't be circ'ing. why would i be planning a natural, calm birth to then do that? when we had our 2nd & 3rd, they were planned homebirths & since we weren't going to the 1st time, no reason to for the next ones.

i became staunchly (is that a word?) anti-circ after SIL had premature twins & before they were born refused to even consider anything other than circ'ing & her telling me i was questioning her parenting b/c i asked her to consider it. now, i believe, no matter what a parent's reason, the child may not agree w/ it. it's no ones decision but the owner of the penis.

sus


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

NAK

For myself it was a few reasons, first when I was pg with my DD my Dr at the time asked me about circ'ing and I told her the baby was a girl and she said "oh good, well I DON'T perform that procedure." It was the _way_ she said it that made me think, hmmmmm why? She is a pretty natural/scientific physician so that got me thinking.

I came to MDC a couple years later, I was another who saw the same emoticons and it made me think about it again. I did in fact start reading about it and looking at pros/cons. My nephew who is the same age as DD was not circ'ed and his brother was, I talked about it with my SIL, she said she felt pressured to "do it right" with her oldest son, but it never did feel like it was the "right" decision, in fact it felt VERY wrong. So their youngest 12 years later was not.

Also my husband is one of 7 children 4 of whom were boys, he was the _only_ one his mother ever had to leave at the hospital because of complications, which was bleeding from his circ









When I became pg with DS I talked with friends(most of whom didn't circ their sons) about what it was like, how to care for it, etc...I was afraid that DH wouldn't be behind me, but he knows that I am one to research _everything_ when I am making a decision, so he trusts my judgment, it was a non-issue









I have been confronted by a few family members about it, but I just say I feel it is wrong, and if someone wants to pursue it deeper, I just tell them it is unnecessary, God made him that way(works for the ILs, they are devout) and that over 100 baby boys die a YEAR from complications. That shuts em up pretty quick.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Amy~* 
For us it was a total non-issue. I'm not sure we even had a conversation about it. Circ's aren't even performed in our city so to get it done, you need to travel 2-3 hours away. Who is seriously going to go through that hassle with a newborn? Here it's pretty unusual to come across a circ'd little boy.


DH and I are originally from NB too and we were surprised when we had our first DS here in AB that they asked us if we wanted to circ. We hadn't talked about it either. I grew up thinking it was just something only certain religions do. No one in our huge extended families were circed. We were both shocked that they even asked. It wasn't until years later when we had our second DS that I became really anti circ. It was researching UC here on MDC that did it for me. I was curious what all the NO Circ signatures were all about.


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## Right of Passage (Jul 25, 2007)

What led me to not circ? When I was 17 I had to write a report about a surgery, whatever surgery didn't matter. I chose circumcision. I read everything I could find online, talked to friends, even tried to watch videos. At that point it was the easiest decision in the world. My DH read my report before I presented it to my class and I had him agreeing with me as well.

Little did we know we'd be expecting a little boy about 6 months later. Now we have 3 intact boys.


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## TyrantOfTheWeek (May 25, 2009)

It just felt wrong and gross to me deep down in my stomach. After I learned the facts, I knew I couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't do it.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Top reason: I had seen unanesthetized circumcisions in nursing school, and my gut level reaction was that it was barbaric, and that I would never do that to my own children. it's been such a long time since we had kids that I don't really remember what other thought processes I had going on about it, but this sticks in my mind as the biggest cause. I think if every parent had to watch a circumcision before making their decision, there would be a lot fewer circumcisions happening.

Gillian


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## ~Amy~ (Jun 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyBoysBlue* 
DH and I are originally from NB too and we were surprised when we had our first DS here in AB that they asked us if we wanted to circ. We hadn't talked about it either. I grew up thinking it was just something only certain religions do. No one in our huge extended families were circed. We were both shocked that they even asked. It wasn't until years later when we had our second DS that I became really anti circ. It was researching UC here on MDC that did it for me. I was curious what all the NO Circ signatures were all about.

That's interesting that the culture surrounding RIC in so different out West. And people talk about the Maritimes as being backward







No one in my family is circ'd either. In fact the only circ'd man I've ever seen or heard of is my DH (he was born in the States).


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## mamasgirls (Sep 8, 2004)

It started with Mothering magazine, then the forums and much research through the internet. My first child is almost 8.5 and I am almost sure that if she had been a boy she would have been circ'd. I am so thankful I had my kids in the order I did. Anyway- everyone in my family is circ'd and I think I would have done it because I didn't know anything about the foreskin. Didn't know all the benefits, didn't know anything.

When I was pregnant with my 2nd (also a girl), my eyes started opening about circ. We knew she was a girl, but was still asked in the hospital if we would circ- in case she was actually a boy. My answer was "no", even though my DH had not really talked a lot about it- mainly because we knew she was a girl. I had done enough reading to know it was not something I wanted done, but I still didn't have the realizations at that time that I do now.

I know have a 12 week old intact boy. During this pregnancy is when the research truly started, presenting the facts to my DH. Not only did I become someone who didn't want to circ, but someone who feels ill that this procedure is still routinely done in this country. It makes me ill for those babies. I am SO SO thankful for the journey that led me to leaving my sweet boy intact. I am so thankful that he was not born first.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glongley* 
Top reason: I had seen unanesthetized circumcisions in nursing school, and my gut level reaction was that it was barbaric, and that I would never do that to my own children. it's been such a long time since we had kids that I don't really remember what other thought processes I had going on about it, but this sticks in my mind as the biggest cause. I think if every parent had to watch a circumcision before making their decision, there would be a lot fewer circumcisions happening.

Gillian

How horrible. I really don't get how that can be considered ok. I just got into an argument on my FB about my stance on circ, someone copied my Intact America stance(why I have no idea, since she then stated she was pro circ). The woman's MIL said that _"it really doesn't matter, because it is a painless procedure."_ Yeah tell that to the baby who's getting his foreskin cut off. Yuck. IDK why people think infants have no pain, WTF is wrong with these people?


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
IDK why people think infants have no pain, WTF is wrong with these people?









This has always puzzled me also. It was pretty obvious to me when DS was 2 hours old that he was perfectly capable of feeling pain, so I don't know how anyone can make the statement that newborns are incapable of feeling pain, which was apparently taught to some doctors in med school.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
IDK why people think infants have no pain, WTF is wrong with these people?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *NSmomtobe* 







This has always puzzled me also. It was pretty obvious to me when DS was 2 hours old that he was perfectly capable of feeling pain, so I don't know how anyone can make the statement that newborns are incapable of feeling pain, which was apparently taught to some doctors in med school.

the state of denial is apparently a beautiful place for many people to live, especially when it comes to their helpless children.









sus


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I live in the UK and don't have boys BUT if I lived in the USA and had boys I still wouldn't have had them circumcised. I mean, its got to hurt, you are born with a fore skin for a reason and I could just go on and on. Circumcision simply doesn't seem like a good, logical choice.


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

I was at a talk where the speaker said "There are 100 million males walking around the US today who were tortured at birth" (i.e. received no anaestethic).

I never liked circ, but that really got him thinking.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

You can always take it off, but you can't ever put it back on. Before I knew much of anything about circ, that thought entered my head. I happened to read a circ debate online about two years ago, and there was an intactivist mama who posted several times, very eloquently. I googled it immediately, and became very anti-circ. The icing on the cake was when I realized the long-term effects of circ on both men and women. I realized that when a circ went perfectly, it wasn't necessarily the most awful, terrible thing in the world. However, given the extremely high complication rates, that seems like such a crazy gamble to take. If something happened to my DS as a result of his circ, I'd never be able to live with myself telling him "you can't ever have a normal sex life all because of an unnecessary cosmetic surgery. If I'd just left you alone, you'd be completely fine." Over the past two years, I've obviously learned a lot more about it.

I am thankful every day that I became educated on circ at such a young age (eighteen). I'll never have to live with that regret when I do have children someday.


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## QHAmom (Mar 15, 2010)

When I found out my first baby was a boy, I was started researching on the topic. My husband could have gone either way. My dad said he wished he had been circ'd, and when my brothers were born, no one asked my parents, they just did it. But when really got me, aside from thinking it was unnecessary, was the scars on my husband. When he was a toddler, he had to have his re-done becasue something was wrong with how it was done as a newborn. Then his zipper caught on the stitches and tore them out, leaving permanant scars. There's no way I'd want my child to go through anything like that. Sadly, my son has never seen another boy his age with a foreskin and he asks why I didn't have it done. I say it's not my choice, and when he grows up, it's up to him to leave it or not.


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## tfadams (Feb 28, 2010)

Can anyone provide links to the research that they refer to? Hoping to get some good evidence to convince DH - who is not only of the mind that it is "normal" but also that it prevents STDs, and cuts HIV risk in half (as cited by some studies in Africa).

Thanks!


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tfadams* 
Can anyone provide links to the research that they refer to? Hoping to get some good evidence to convince DH - who is not only of the mind that it is "normal" but also that it prevents STDs, and cuts HIV risk in half (as cited by some studies in Africa).

Thanks!

You might want to do a search for STDs and HIV in the Case Against Circumcision Forum, as they have been discussed over and over again over the past years. Also, you might want to post your request as a separate thread, so this thread doesn't get off track. I'm sure many people would be glad to provide you links there.

Gillian


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## mumm (May 23, 2004)

I didn't make a decision not to circ. Inaction doesn't require a decision all the time. You make a decision TO circ. In my mind there is a big difference.

It was never a question or a decision to be made in my household. Just as so many other "big decisions" such as bf weren't ever decisions but just were.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Amy~* 
That's interesting that the culture surrounding RIC in so different out West. And people talk about the Maritimes as being backward







No one in my family is circ'd either. In fact the only circ'd man I've ever seen or heard of is my DH (he was born in the States).

This is sad, but true. My doctor tells me that there are a lot fewer circumcisions being performed now than five years ago, but they do still happen - I know of two.

On another note, I have twice written to The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta asking what their official policy is regarding infant circumcision. They huffily replied that they expect their members "to use good judgement".


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## sarahdavida (Mar 21, 2008)

I haven´t read the whole thread, but will reply to the OP´s question...

We live in Peru where it is not as common to circ. - although many still do. DH is not circumsized and the pediatrician we chose, who is pretty straight-laced about most things and who studied and practiced in the States for years - is very anti-circumsicion. Also, one of my closest friends is a licensed naturopath - we were both raised in a reform Jewish households - and I asked her about the subject when I was pregnant. She had already done the research (religious and medical) when she had been pregnant with DD1 (which they didn´t know was going to be a DD) and informed me of what she found. That was enough for me - for me the religious reasons were bogus and outdated (I am not even religious, so why would it matter) - and we had encouragement from the Pedi. that there is almost NEVER any valid medical reason to circumsize. It was pretty simple and that was enough for us. I have also always been wary of altering the natural body permanently and coupled with the fact that DH is intact, we were both very comfortable and happy with our decision not to do it.


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## 3 Star Mom (Mar 18, 2010)

I have 2 boys and they are both circed. I did not realize at the time that it was so controversial or had such a lasting impact on them. I just thought it was the "normal" thing to do. I guess my thinking on that subject had never been challenged before. I thought I would just ask my DH because he would know more about it than me. Since he is circed that's what we did. Thinking back on it now I wish we had dug into the subject more thoroughly







. I guess we just didn't know what we didn't know.


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## MamaCAS (Jan 6, 2005)

I watched some videos. I presumed the first one was an exaggeration or a propaganda thing. I watched a few more. Then I learned that it makes sex more pleasurable for a male to have the foreskin. Then I learned that it was not unsanitary and not likely to be a contributor to STDs.

Then I gave a lot of thought to why I thought I would circ and whether I was really going to do what I saw in the videos to my son to protect him from potential locker room banter. And I thought about the source of strength and pride in a young boy and decided I could try to equip him with tools to accept and be proud of himself in the event he does turn out to be the kid who gets teased, and gets teased about being intact.

I thought about what I wanted to teach him. I want him to learn to be his own person, to be able to be proud of himself. How can I teach him to be his own man if I surrender his body to accommodate useless cultural norms that hinder his sexual pleasure?

Finally, I decided that for me to be proud of myself as a mother, I had to let go of my inclination to cling to the mainstream, and make the best decision for him. No health reason to do it; less pleasurable sex; pain to a newborn baby v. what?


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## sarahdavida (Mar 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
she then stated she was pro circ

you know, it´s funny...I never thought of anyone as being, particualrly "pro-circ" - as if that were something to fight for - to try to convince everyone to circumsize their boys...I mean, if you do it, I don´t agree but ultimately it´s not my decision to make for you...it seems silly and odd to me that someone to take a position to try to convince me to circumsize...I know the woman was defending her decision more than trying to make others do it (I guess), but someone labeling his/herself as "pro-circ" just seems odd to me...


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

When I was pregnant with my first I assumed I would circ if she had been a boy, just because that's what everyone does (and I live in an area that still has a circ rate of like 80%). Then I started actually learning about it. Watching circ videos clinched it for me. No way would I ever do that to my baby. This is our first boy and I'm glad it's not a conversation dh and I even need to have now, he'll absolutely be intact


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahdavida* 
you know, it´s funny...*I never thought of anyone as being, particualrly "pro-circ" - as if that were something to fight for - to try to convince everyone to circumsize their boys..*.I mean, if you do it, I don´t agree but ultimately it´s not my decision to make for you...it seems silly and odd to me that someone to take a position to try to convince me to circumsize...I know the woman was defending her decision more than trying to make others do it (I guess), but someone labeling his/herself as "pro-circ" just seems odd to me...

The main reason the need to educate about the harm of circumcision exists is because of the well funded and active work of a handful of people who are PRO circumcision. Edgar Schoen, and Brian Morris come to mind.

Two years ago at the Genital Integrity Awareness Week demonstration in Washington DC, John Geisheker from Doctors Opposing Circumcision, made the statement that if you put all the pro circumcision people in one place - they would fit into a minivan. He was referring to those in places of influence and not the misled general public. The point being that the pro circ movement is well funded (Bill and Melinda Gates funding of circ in Africa for example) but conducted by a few very PRO circ people.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I agree with PF - I think a lot of the people in the general public that come off as pro circ are just defending their decision or status.

In my circles (I live in a very high circ area) people that have cut their sons are very defensive of the decision...especially in light of the truth. Their defensiveness makes them come off as pro circ.

People need to believe that they made the best choice for their child. They need to keep on believing it.

Many men who defend circ are cut - they come off as pro as well, they need to know that what was done to them was better then being left intact. Their defensiveness makes them appear pro.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahdavida* 
you know, it´s funny...I never thought of anyone as being, particualrly "pro-circ" - as if that were something to fight for - to try to convince everyone to circumsize their boys...I mean, if you do it, I don´t agree but ultimately it´s not my decision to make for you...it seems silly and odd to me that someone to take a position to try to convince me to circumsize...I know the woman was defending her decision more than trying to make others do it (I guess), but someone labeling his/herself as "pro-circ" just seems odd to me...

Oh, some people are definitely pro-circumcision, and label themselves as such. I agree that most people are just defending themselves, but pro-circers do exist.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

This board taught me everything about not circing. I am researcher though and often question the masses; sometimes they are right but I like to do the leg work first. The leg work for circumcision led me here.


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## nsmomtobe (Aug 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
Oh, some people are definitely pro-circumcision, and label themselves as such. I agree that most people are just defending themselves, but pro-circers do exist.

I actually was pro-circ for a while in high school. I was friends with a pro-circ guy who used to talk about all the (health/hygiene/social/sexual) problems intact guys had growing up just because their mother's were "too squeamish" to do the right thing and cut them at birth so they wouldn't have to grow up like that. And I believed him and his reasons. I also agreed that it looked better circ'd. I told him I wouldn't be one of those mothers who was too squeamish to do the right thing.

As it turned out, it was a moot point, but I can honestly say that squeamishness had nothing to do with my leaving DS intact. And I *know* I did the right thing.


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## PeachBaby (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
From the time I learned what circumcision was, I have been against it. I just didn't understand why one would remove a natural part of the body. It didn't make sense.

It wasn't until I decided to have children that I really looked into the issue and became informed on the the anatomy of the foreskin and the procedure of circumcision. But before I had the facts, I had an instinctual sense that it was wrong.


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## bayosgirl87 (Dec 6, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer*
> 
> Babina's Mommy, I am also someone completly comfortable with going against the tide when I know that I am right.
> The feelling I get knowing that I've saved my son from this harm is one of deep compassion and peace. I truly believe it's a humanitarian act and that this act of protection for my son radiates out into the universe. I hope he's a gentler more peaceful soul for not having to experience this pain and have it a part of himself to carry for life. Much as violence begets violence - the child spanked grows up to be a spanker with their own children - I hope that gentleness begets gentleness.
> The point I am making is that I see it as a much bigger isue than just my own specific son. How we treat the young and the elderly speaks volumns about our society. I think we have a long way to go but I am eased to know that I have contributed kindly to the shaping of a new person.


I love your post. I couldn't have stated it better myself.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

I changed my brother as a newborn and thought what they'd done was pretty horrific. I never really noticed my would be husband was intact at first but once he mentioned it, well it wasn't a big deal. His mom was paying for his birth and everything out of pocket and saw no need for opting for that procedure. So I started out thinking at best it's a neutral thing, at worse it's harming them to do it. I'm of the opinion of if choice of do something and do nothing are equal then do nothing.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

I came to the conclusion when I was probably around 16ish. I remember walking down the street, lost in thoughts. And I got to thinking about it. I didn't know much. Probably about all I knew was: its pretty common, it allegedly reduced risks of infections, but it was controversial and some people didn't believe that, or didn't think that was good justification, its a Jewish commandment, and not a commandment for my religion. I also had two nephews, one intact one not. So, with just that information, I got to thinking. Everyone is born with a foreskin. So, its normal. And probably there for a reason. So were we improving god's/nature's design by altering the normal state of the body, or were we messing it up? And I came to the conclusion that it makes the most sense to leave it alone. Anyway.. seemed like pretty common sense logic. Then of course, the more I learned the more firm I was in my position!


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## erinmattsmom88 (Oct 28, 2010)

I never thought of it until I was pregnant with my first. Then, she turned out to be a girl.

Second time around, the subject came up again and poof! A boy!! DH and I had talks about it. Our #1 reason for not circ'ing our son was because it is mutilation. Males are born with foreskin for a reason. Nature knows what it's doing. Not gonna mess with nature.


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## rhubarbjelly (Oct 23, 2013)

I would have had to have spoken to a senior doctor to request circ for my son - unless for religious reasons its really seen as very odd over here. I saw a circ man once and didn't know what wasnt right about his penis for ages. Just completely diff I guess


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

In early 2004 I was pregnant with my first and was online reading about natural birth and breastfeeding. That led me here but I didn't join as a member until some time afterward. It was so early in my pregnancy that we didn't even know the sex of the baby. (I had a natural birth in the hospital the first time.) Matt looked up from his computer, across from where I was sitting at my computer and asked my opinion on getting the baby circumcised if it was a boy. I replied, "I've heard the word a few times but I have no idea what it is." He told me that it's when a boy has part of his penis cut off. I scoffed and said, "Well yeah, if it's horribly diseased or he's going to die or something." He told me that, nope they just do it. I didn't believe him at first. How could I be an adult woman and have no idea that all around me almost every man I had ever met had part of his penis chopped off as a baby? It completely blew my mind. I was against it immediately. Matt was happy I felt that way. He has actually been against circumcision longer than he's known me. I know often it's the mom who introduces the dad to the information. In our case it was the other way around.


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## MoonJelly (Sep 10, 2004)

*I just pulled up a picture on the internet! *

Many things over time but the initial spark was that one night early in our marriage, the subject came up and my (circ'd) husband stated, rather emphatically, that he would never, ever do that to a child and that he had always been upset that he was cut ever since he realized that this was done to him. I retorted with some typical culturally conditioned response (like "ew, gross" or something ignorant lol!).

DH wandered off but I immediately went to the computer and Googled to find pictures of intact penises! I figured if this was something my husband felt strongly about, then at the very least I needed to see what one looked like lol! I thought, well, it is a bit different but not really bad different or good different. Just different than what I was used to. And really that was the beginning of my journey. Of course now I realize it doesn't matter what my personal views are on the appearance because it is not my body to decide. However, if this is what helps get some mothers over the initial fear or whatever, so be it. I think more women should see what they look like up close and that it really isn't that big of a deal.

Full disclosure: I am embarrassed to say that on reflection, I realized that I had indeed had sex with an intact man in college. I just didn't know it because they look very similar when aroused. More proof that it's all in our heads!


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## MyLilPwny (Feb 22, 2008)

When I read the web site "Top 10 Ways Circumcision Harms Women", that was when I decided I would never circumcise.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

In the 90s or maybe as late as 2001, I saw a display by a student group against circumcision. I didn't really have any opinion of it at the time or even much interest. I was just curious. I looked at their material and thought it all sounded like common sense. I had fortgotten about that exposure by the time I got pregnant. I think, however, it took root in my psyche.

By the time I got pregnant, I was naive. I read through an informational binder of prenatal care and birth choices provided by my midwives. There was a page on circumcision which started with a noncommittal paragraph about how it is not medically necessary but some parents have it done and it's no big deal. I just thought, "people still do that?" and "why, if it's not necessary, would anyone cut off a bodypart from their baby?"

The naive part was that I assumed circumcision was rare, especially among educated parents. Then my friends and peers all started having babies and circumcising their sons! I was dumbfounded. Most of them had advanced degrees and yet they were consenting to pointless surgery. That's when I got outraged and found out more about it. It was more than pointless, it was harmful too.


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## mmmveggies (Feb 9, 2014)

I wasn't sure how I felt about it for a long time. We thought we were having a girl so I was glad I wouldn't have to decide.
I happen to think piercing a baby's ears is mutilation, so it's surprising it took me so long to decide against circumcision. I thought there would be all this cleaning involved with an intact penis, but then I read something online about how you don't need to clean under the foreskin, the first person who should retract it would be my son, and it all clicked.
I also looked up botched circumcisions. There's all sorts of things that can go wrong even when everything looks okay, like little adhesions. My fiance is fine now, but he almost lost his penis as a baby because his mom forgot to change his circumcision dressing.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I can't pinpoint an exact moment, but my second sexual partner wasn't circumcised and I was kind of like, hmm, this is sort of cool to play with, why do people cut it off? So I think after that, I didn't really see the point. I don't recall spending a ton of time on the decision, but it seemed fairly self-evident that there wasn't a really good reason to do surgery on a tiny baby. Any further reading I did only solidified my feelings on the matter. Some time before DH and I had kids I laid down the law that any future sons wouldn't be circumcised. He is circed and doesn't seem bothered about it, but he didn't have a problem with going along with my position on the matter.


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## Chloe'sMama (Oct 14, 2008)

We just figured that it is his decision.... Why do a painful procedure if it is not needed. He can always do it later if he wants.


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