# I don't understand AP and sleep.



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

DS cannot fall asleep without nursing. He's been looking tired since 8:30 a.m. I just nursed him for two hours. He fell asleep twice. I tried to LIE DOWN WITH HIM and he woke twice.

He wakes at least every hour at night. I can't do this any more.

I just put him in a crib, but when he cries I can't take it.

I have 6 sleep books. None seem to be geared toward the kid who won't fall asleep, or stay asleep.

Should I just stop trying to get him to sleep? Half the sleep books stress the importance of independent sleep and falling asleep on his own. I'm more confused now. Doing AP for sleep, he's waking every 20-60 minutes -- how is he getting any rest? I'm certainly not.

I'm in the depths of PPD and keep posting here because I don't know what else to do. I'm "this" close to putting him in a crib, closing the door, and covering my ears.


----------



## alieh (Jul 20, 2008)

I don't have any advice for you since I'm going through a similar situation. Hang in there girlie. I hope it gets better for you. How old is DS?


----------



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Ten months.

Thanks. I just don't understand why he won't sleep. I'd love to nap right now!


----------



## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Have you read "Sleepless in America" ? The author seems very AP and I found many pearls of wisdom in it.


----------



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes, I have Sleepless in America. I increased bedtime rituals and lots of transition time. I'll reread it.


----------



## pife (Nov 7, 2008)

I'm reaching a little bit here but it sounds like teething might be a factor. That is when my twins (now 12 mo) were getting teeth. Have you tried teething tablets? I am nursing my boys and I find that the nursing really increases during teething - and the waking up at night & naps. How you are feeling about night is how I feel about naps some days. Would love to not have to rock each one down to sleep in the hopes that the other stays entertained playing until it is his turn. Ah well!!


----------



## mizznicole (Feb 13, 2007)

I'm so sorry.









Do you have a partner that can lie down with him and give you a break? There's a gulf between leaving a child to CIO and letting him cry with a grownup that loves him, IMO.


----------



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Yes, we use Hylan's teething tablets. DS must be teething, but a lot of this isn't new behavior -- I'm just at my breaking point.

He doesn't nap, either. I rock, sing, nurse for hours. Then he wakes up after a few minutes.

I can't imagine twins! Such a blessing, but I imagine sooo challenging.

Thanks.


----------



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mizznicole* 
I'm so sorry.









Do you have a partner that can lie down with him and give you a break? There's a gulf between leaving a child to CIO and letting him cry with a grownup that loves him, IMO.

Thanks. DH is out of town for three weeks. I'm thinking of calling in other family to see if they can help.


----------



## buggasmom (Jan 5, 2009)

i still have the same struggles and my daughter is 2.3 years. i'm looking for help, too. i thinking teething may be an issue and notice that at certain times she needs me more. is your son going through any milestones? that's another thing i'm trying to understand. my little girl needs me more when she is going thru something big, but i'm still having a hard time with all the nursing and needing to lie down with her.


----------



## mizznicole (Feb 13, 2007)

Sorry, just saw your other post. I'd consider giving DS an NSAID to get through this...think about it.

We had those nights too where DS would just wake up and want to play rather than nurse and go to sleep. But he's also prone to waking up when you try to detach him. One suggestion is to put him in a pack n' play when he wakes and wants to play. We didn't do that, but I was close! Of course he may just start crying anyhow.

My DS is really similar. Until your hubby comes back, try to nap with your baby even if you get sorta half-sleep. Sleep deprivation is the WORST for mental health, as I know from experience.

Look, I think it comes down to balancing the mother's health with the child's. A mom with PPD who can't function during the day is not benefiting the child. That's how I feel about my situation, anyhow. And I know a lot of my depression-anxiety is just from lack of sleep. There are many ways to communicate trust and safety to your child. That's the core of AP from my point of view.


----------



## caltonhuynh (Jun 20, 2006)

Do you ever wear your baby? That is another good way to get them to sleep, I have found. Hang in there! The sleep struggles really do lessen some day.


----------



## SuzyLee (Jan 18, 2008)

You would be suprised how many AP mamas secretly did CIO because they reached their breaking point and just couldn't do it anymore.

I personally, in that situation, do 2 things-

1. drug W. around the clock, alternating tylenol and ibuprofin. If it helps, I assume he was in teething pain. Teething HURTS- I will give him drugs for it, i don't care.
2. Only nurse him lying down. If he really wants to nurse, he will do it lying down, and even if he doesn't let go of my boob for a 2 hour nap, at least I can get a little sleep.


----------



## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

I know what you are going through. DD is extremely active and strong-willed and fights sleep day and night. At 5 months she began waking up every hour and it got progressively worse, until at 9 months I was borderline psychotic from lack of sleep. My mom gave me like 5 sleep books and all sorts of homeopthic sleep aids; nothing really seemed to help. This is my first baby and I so wanted to be the "perfect" AP mom, but it came to the point that cosleeping full time and nursing all night were not working for either of us--both DD and I were exhausted and cranky, and I was becoming resentful of my own child. So I have concluded that AP is more about responding to your child's needs and following your instincts than rigidly sticking to a set of "rules." My child and I NEED sleep to have a close and "attached" relationship.

DD is still a crummy napper, so I don't have suggestions for that (except I try to catch her at the 3-hour mark when she first gets sleepy). However, in the past few weeks I have had great success at night with her by doing the following:
-Later bedtime--10p.m. instead of 7:30--it's very difficult to keep her up this long, but it's worth it. I nurse to sleep and put her down in the crib, which is in my room. At the later hour, she is now less likely to wake when I put her down.
-Gentle (partial) night weaning--I gradually replaced nursing with rocking/walking between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. (I make sure she gets enough to eat during the day/evening). For a few nights I rocked/walked her for an hour or more, and this was tough since she would still usually wake up when I put her down. Then, I decided if it was after 1 a.m. I would put her down anyway, pat and shush, and let her know I was there but refused to pick her up. The first couple of nights I refused to pick her up she cried/fussed for about 45 minutes (I was expecting 3 hours of this). Over the next few nights the crying/fussing tapered off to about 10-15 minutes. It's tough to hear her cry, but I do not believe this is CIO since I am in the same room just 3 feet away. Now, our nights go something like this:
-10 p.m.: Nurse to sleep and put down in crib
-Anytime between 1-3 a.m.: DD wakes up fussing, I pick her up and rock her; sometimes she falls back to sleep; if she doesn't, I put her in the crib anyway and she fusses for 10 minutes and goes to sleep
-5 a.m.: DD wakes up crying; I bring her in bed and nurse; she sleeps for 2-3 more hours in bed with me. We both wake up actually rested; DD smiles at me and taps my shoulder to tell me it's time to start the day.

Anyway, I don't know if that helps or not but I hope you are somehow able to make a change and get some sleep. My heart goes out to you.


----------



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caltonhuynh* 
Do you ever wear your baby? That is another good way to get them to sleep, I have found. Hang in there! The sleep struggles really do lessen some day.

This is the only way I can get him to sleep. Wear, nurse, rock, sing. For hours. Shoot me!


----------



## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I wish I had advice for you. I remember my son being like that, but I don't remember what I did about it (because I was in a total sleep deprived fog, I couldn't tell you very much about the details of my life at that point).

I will say that it got better at some point, and he's now a great sleeper. Hang in there!!

And if anyone implies that it's somehow your fault or that you're doing something wrong to make your son act like this, they're full of crap. Each baby is very different, and while there are things you can do to *help*, some just have very intense needs around sleep and some don't.


----------



## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Can you nurse laying down? Or are you? If not, it will work wonders. You can sleep when he is nursing. If you are and it still isn't working, then the only suggestion I have is to find help. Can you think of anyone who could hold your baby while you catch up on some sleep?


----------



## Pyrodjm (Jan 9, 2007)

I also recommend nursing him in the side-lying tansition so that there is nnot transition to the bed. THis is the only way I get DD down to bed some nights


----------



## njbeachgirl (Oct 8, 2006)

Just wanted to send a







to a fellow NJ mama. Sleep deprivation sucks. Unfortunately I don't really have any good advice..


----------



## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

How much is he actually sleeping, total? I wouldn't sing and rock and nurse for hours trying to force a nap. Some children need very little sleep; it's horrible for their sleep deprived mothers, no doubt about that, but trying to make them sleep when they either don't want or need to during the day could make the night even worse. Night time is the most important because it's when you can sleep.

Of course, it's important to look into all the possible physical causes like teething and allergies and reflux; especially if your ds has any other symptoms and/or seems unhappy and tired all the time. Once those are ruled out, though, you can provide a quiet, dark, calming environment for rest time at certain times each day, and you can set a limit for how long you're going to actively try to help him rest, like 20 or 30 minutes or whatever makes you not want to tear your hair out, and then you can give up. My DD has never been a good napper, and I clearly remember the intense frustration of trying and trying, just to have her open her eyes the second I put her down, or sneezed, or something. It wasn't good for either of us. I eventually let her give up naps (but NOT let her go to sleep too early and have a "night nap", either), learned to keep her up late and fall asleep when she was pretty much exhausted. She's always been a pretty happy, healthy kid and I don't deal with sleep frustration anymore. Ten months is very early to not nap at all; but you can deal with that after he gets to the point where he sleeps a good chunk at night.








It's not you. Some kids are crappy sleepers.


----------



## aquamam (Sep 19, 2008)

I feel for you mama - I am in the midst of dealing with this as well. DD was a horrible sleeper, and my 7 MO while not quite as bad, feels worse b/c I also have a toddler to deal with.

Good on you for reading up on sleep and sleep habits. I like Sleepless in America, NCSS, and also Healthy Sleep Habits-Happy Child. I don't agree with the CIO advice in the latter (he does discuss gentle ways to do it, and also is not against cosleeping, but all his examples are CIO), but I learned a lot about infant and children sleep patterns, and it was especially good for encouraging better sleep for post-colic babies.

Hearing that things will get better, although true, doesn't seem to help much I know! We are mostly following NCSS, and after 1 month, are seeing some results finally. DS is now napping in crib during the day (previously with me or in the swing or stroller or being worn), and naps are longer, often over an hour (I'm sure you would also jump for joy at one of those!).

Here's what has worked for me:

Start nap routine after 1-1.5 hours awake (I used to do 2-2.5 hours, but the earlier start did make things easier)
We do book, lullaby on the ipod with cuddles/dancing, nursing til almost asleep (using the pantly pull off method), then down in the crib with some ssshhs and bum pats. If needed I repeat the nursing etc sometimes 3-4 times til he's too tired to fight it anymore








I go back into the room 10 minutes before he usually wakes up, and as soon as he pops his head up I shhh and pat his bum and he's started to just go back to sleep. For the last while I've only had to intervene 1/3 of the time. Plus I'm actually making some headway reading a novel while I wait, which is a real treat
Nighttime isn't so great - I have to nurse him down still, and wakings are 1-2 hours. After 2 weeks of PPO at night, he finally rolls over and goes back to sleep when done. Temporarily PPO made night waking worse, but now I love to see his backside at night







. I wish there was a solution to the frequency of wakeups - this is my problem too.

Definitely call in reinforcements if you have them! My mom has my toddler this week so I can focus on getting some quality sleep happening in this house, and it's made my life so much simpler.

I think it would be extremely healthy for you to get out for a bit, if you can find someone to take your child for a few hours. Show your mom or sister or neighbor how to get him in your carrier of choice and go to a matinee or get a pedicure if you can afford it. PPD plus sleep deprivation must put you in a terrible place sometimes. Don't feel bad about going out - as long as he is with someone who loves him as much as you do he's going to be absolutely OK without you for a few hours.

You are doing all you can for your son, so don't doubt yourself


----------



## RomanCarmelMom (Dec 2, 2008)

I had to nurse my son while he was laying down. Once he was asleep, I'd wait about 10 minutes to make sure he was in a deep sleep. If he had not fallen off the breast, I'd wait until he was exhaling before I'd pull my breast out as quickly as possible. If he was inhaling when I pulled my breast away, then I'd have to start all over because he'd wake up. Then I'd carefully and slowly move his arms or legs, or whatever was laying on me away. Then I'd carefully and slowly _roll_ away from him. Then, I'd place our nursing pillow where I had been so that he would smell me and those nursing smells they pick up on, and he thought I was still there, so he'd stay asleep.

To this day, I have to either nurse him sitting up, or lay down with him (not nursing) to get him to sleep. If I put him down while he's asleep, I have to put him down as smoothly and as _fast_ as possible, and keep my hand on his back for a minute. To do this, I have to kneel on his bed, rather than bend over it to put him down. For some reason, slowly and gently moving him wakes him up and always has. Once I figured out his little quirky sleep issues....like the slow movement disturbance and the exhaling trick with unlatching, things greatly improved. I just had to experiment with his sleep routine in odd little ways before I realized why he was always waking me up. I am a much more sane Mama now!

Also, finally around 16-18 months I nightweaned him. That's helped a lot! I realized that I needed to teach him that it is possible to be comforted by me without nursing. Now, if he wakes up at night, he'll often crawl into my bed and cuddle next to me, and I don't even wake up! It's the best of both worlds for me!

Best wishes to you for a sleep solution! There will be a day when you'll sleep again!


----------



## tangledblue (Apr 5, 2008)

Some kids even find being held overstimulating. Try laying baby down while you're right there with him--stay there but keep intervention minimal. It might be hard but just try to observe and see what his cues are.

My dd can yelp in her sleep and it seems like she's awake when she's not. I found it was easy at first to just assume she was awake and then just disturb her further by trying to comfort her. Sometimes it's worth waiting a little while to see what happens. Also, leaving baby in a safe place for a little while for your own sanity is NOT CIO.

And whatever you do, get someone to give you a break--you need and deserve it!


----------



## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

Thank you so much for responses. Your support is so important to me. I appreciate all the encouraging words.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buggasmom* 
i thinking teething may be an issue and notice that at certain times she needs me more. is your son going through any milestones? that's another thing i'm trying to understand. my little girl needs me more when she is going thru something big, but i'm still having a hard time with all the nursing and needing to lie down with her.

He might be. He just learned to stand holding on to something recently and is trying new things with that. I have to say that even though I may understand he is teething and developing, it's not enough to get me through.







I need a nap!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mizznicole* 
Look, I think it comes down to balancing the mother's health with the child's. A mom with PPD who can't function during the day is not benefiting the child. That's how I feel about my situation, anyhow. And I know a lot of my depression-anxiety is just from lack of sleep. There are many ways to communicate trust and safety to your child. That's the core of AP from my point of view.

I love this outlook. I do need balance. DS needs sleep but trying to get him to sleep is killing me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuzyLee* 

I personally, in that situation, do 2 things-

1. drug W. around the clock, alternating tylenol and ibuprofin. If it helps, I assume he was in teething pain. Teething HURTS- I will give him drugs for it, i don't care.
2. Only nurse him lying down. If he really wants to nurse, he will do it lying down, and even if he doesn't let go of my boob for a 2 hour nap, at least I can get a little sleep.

Yes, I can see white buds on his gums. This is part of it. I didn't know they had ibuprofin for kids. I like #2. The only way I can get him to fall asleep is a combo of wearing, nursing, rocking and singing... and sometimes patting. Sounds like overstimulation, but in 10 months, it's what has proven to work. I love the idea of nursing to sleeping lying down. I do have to wrestle a bit, though because he's a squirmer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morganlefay* 
So I have concluded that AP is more about responding to your child's needs and following your instincts than rigidly sticking to a set of "rules." My child and I NEED sleep to have a close and "attached" relationship.

I'm nodding my head. Nodding, nodding, nodding. My relationship with my son is suffering because I'm sleep deprived, and therefore struggling with PPD. If there were more sleep going on, there'd be more fun, play and interaction during the day. I just don't know how to get there...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
And if anyone implies that it's somehow your fault or that you're doing something wrong to make your son act like this, they're full of crap. Each baby is very different, and while there are things you can do to *help*, some just have very intense needs around sleep and some don't.

Aw, thanks. It's hard to believe this. I totally think I did this to him somehow. And that I got myself in this situation. I certainly know I have some family who believe this, too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
How much is he actually sleeping, total?

I eventually let her give up naps (but NOT let her go to sleep too early and have a "night nap", either), learned to keep her up late and fall asleep when she was pretty much exhausted. She's always been a pretty happy, healthy kid and I don't deal with sleep frustration anymore. Ten months is very early to not nap at all; but you can deal with that after he gets to the point where he sleeps a good chunk at night.







It's not you. Some kids are crappy sleepers.

Twelve hours at night is ideal, but only happens a few nights of the week. Goal is two one-hour naps, but that almost never happens. The sleep books I've read recommend 14 hours for his age. So that was what I was aiming for. Also, I'm taking a look at him. Until recently (when I started focusing on sleep) he was overtired all of the time. Do you feel like your DD gets enough sleep? Thanks for the hug.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *aquamam* 
Here's what has worked for me:

Start nap routine after 1-1.5 hours awake (I used to do 2-2.5 hours, but the earlier start did make things easier)
We do book, lullaby on the ipod with cuddles/dancing, nursing til almost asleep (using the pantly pull off method), then down in the crib with some ssshhs and bum pats. If needed I repeat the nursing etc sometimes 3-4 times til he's too tired to fight it anymore








I go back into the room 10 minutes before he usually wakes up, and as soon as he pops his head up I shhh and pat his bum and he's started to just go back to sleep. For the last while I've only had to intervene 1/3 of the time. Plus I'm actually making some headway reading a novel while I wait, which is a real treat

Whoa! The fact that you can put your LO down and pat them to sleep is HUGE! Congrats on getting to that point. I will keep at it, but I'm having a hard time doing a routine since DS won't sleep! He's tired at the same times, but won't sleep. So frustrating. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RomanCarmelMom* 
I realized that I needed to teach him that it is possible to be comforted by me without nursing.

Thanks. This sounds so right: to teach him other ways to be comforted. Right now he bangs his head (bobbing for nipples) on my chest while I hold him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tangledblue* 
Some kids even find being held overstimulating. Try laying baby down while you're right there with him--stay there but keep intervention minimal. It might be hard but just try to observe and see what his cues are.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm stimulating him too much. He's very, very easily distracted. One day I had to take off a floral patterned shirt because he couldn't keep himself away from poking the flowers. I'll try lying him down again. I usually "try" this when I'm totally spent and feel I have nothing left to give him. So at that point he's overtired and can feel I'm tense. I should try it when we're both calm. Thanks.


----------



## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tangledblue* 
Some kids even find being held overstimulating. Try laying baby down while you're right there with him--stay there but keep intervention minimal. It might be hard but just try to observe and see what his cues are.

My dd can yelp in her sleep and it seems like she's awake when she's not. I found it was easy at first to just assume she was awake and then just disturb her further by trying to comfort her. Sometimes it's worth waiting a little while to see what happens. Also, leaving baby in a safe place for a little while for your own sanity is NOT CIO.

And whatever you do, get someone to give you a break--you need and deserve it!

Yes this! I was rocking DD for hours and laying with her for hours more. As it turned out, she was ready to learn how to go to sleep on her own and needed momma to get out of her way. I was way too distracting and stimulating.

She did fuss a bit, but we swooped in to reassure her and resettle her as often as necessary and did not do CIO at all. But we did let her have responsibility for her own sleep cycle, even if that made her upset (within reason), and it made a huge difference. (And of course we always respond to her cries and don't just shut the door and walk away.)

One night and she was pretty much sleeping through the night. She adapted to the new routine very quickly.

Also, if there are teeth popping through, some of this crying and sleep disruption is pain. Pain that Hylands is not helping. Personally, I would be using Motrin and even Tylenol between Motrin doses to make baby comfortable. Teething pain can be exquisite misery. DD got 6 teeth in a row and many many times I was * * this close to calling the ped and begging for a pain medication for DD.

ETA: Introduce a lovey every time you nurse so he has a 'security blanket' aside from the boobs. This may help as well.

V


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with everyone generally. I wanted to add that that period was hard for us too, and my son (3.5) does sleep now just fine. So it's not a ruination.









How we ourselves got through it was:
- both parents got involved in it so no one reached breaking point
- he would sleep in the Ergo, so I did a LOT of walking, even when it was cold (with hat, blanket, and under my coat)
- physical activity early in the day was key so we took swimming. Actually, swimming + carseat was a guaranteed nap

Hang in there, don't guilt yourself, and get as much help as you can!


----------



## leigh09 (Dec 16, 2008)

I am sending you hugs. My DD was the exact same way. We follow sleep advice in Dr. Sears "The Baby Sleep Book". He has a section that mentions constant night waking may be due to medical issues and lists a number of issues that occur in babies/young toddlers that cause night waking.
We took our DD to a naturopath after reading this and had her tested for food allergies & sensitivities. She tested positives as sensitive to a number of foods and food additives. Literally 1 1/2 days after we changed her diet, she calmed right down during the daytime and about 3 to 4 days later she started only waking once at night. This is a huge improvement from waking constantly at night and during naps. She is 15 months old.

I am sharing DD's story with you not to be alarming, but simply to suggest perhaps looking into any medical issues that may be waking your child up? I believe there is also a list on www.askdrsears.com. It made an unbelievable difference in our family's sleep life.

I know how frustrating it is not getting any sleep and I have also been on the verge of walking away on my daughter myself and just leaving her to CIO since I didn't know what else to do. I have loads of sympathy for you and wishing you lots of patience!


----------



## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

With my hard to sleep little one, I did things very similar to all that you're doing now for a long time... Would swaddle her and nurse her while walking and bouncing for SOOO long to get her to sleep, then would carefully lie down on my side with her once she was relaxed and drowsy, then would de-latch her and roll away once she was really asleep. The swaddle would keep her asleep for 40-45m, and then she'd wake at the end of that sleep cycle - I would go in and lie down with her for the rest of her nap, anywhere from 15m to another hour.

What seemed to help was that I played the same 3 songs while we walked and bounced and nursed, so she associated that with sleepiness... So when I finally just couldn't take the walking her thing anymore and skipped straight to lying down, that music association still seemed to help her relax.

And about your LO squirming... It could be they would appreciate your giving them some loving, gentle but firm resistance/pressure. If you don't swaddle, you might try as an experiment - resistance while you're wrapping isn't an important cue, it's whether they seem to relax once in the swaddle and you're holding them. Other ways to give good pressure are just "taco"-ing the LO in a blanket to give deep pressure on the arms until they're sleeping... Giving firm pressure in a bear hug hold...

You might also think about your LO's "sensory diet" - that got more and more helpful for me as DD got toward toddlerhood. Here's a link...

http://www.sensorysmarts.com/diet.html


----------



## mom2alicia (Nov 30, 2004)

i haven't read all the replies, just your post, but i'm wondering if something is interfering with his sleep such as discomfort/pain. the amount of times he is waking seems excessive in my opinion. so i'm wondering if there is a reason he is waking so much. my daughter woke frequently because she had food allergies and eczema. which frankly didn't have many obvious symptoms, but when i realized her skin did feel dry to the touch even though it didn't look dry and that eczema is really, really uncomfortable and itchy and causes sleep problems, it made sense. i also did an elimination diet and had no idea how much food allergies were bothering her. the symptoms weren't obvious until i removed dairy and then realized how much it had been bothering her. dramatic difference within a couple days. anyway, in her situation once i treated the eczema and eliminated dairy, she slept much better and was happier in general. with my son he also had eczema and food allergies (turns out he is severely (anaphalactic to cows milk protein and hens eggs) and i recognized the signs right away since i dealt with it with my daughter. also he had reflux. he was nursing a ton and crying and uncomfortable. i did get a prescription for the doctor (zantac) and it made such a difference. he slept longer and didn't nurse as frequently at night and didn't cry and wasn't restless. anyway, these are just some things that can interfere with sleep, allergies, eczema, reflux. maybe shift your focus from trying to get him to sleep to what's interfering with his sleep? too hot, too cold, itchy pjs (polyester), dry skin, allergies.....i wish you the best of luck. i know how frustrating it can be.


----------



## VanessaS (May 22, 2007)

My DC are both very easily overstimulated (strangely, this is correlated with higher-than-average intelligence and isn't necessarily a bad thing) and had a hard time falling asleep. We eliminated naps and gave them a bath every night so that they were good and tired when it was time to sleep. And we cut out all of the recommended bedtime stuff (walking them around, playing music, singing to them, etc.). My children had total brain-overload and the only thing that helped was a completely dark, silent room. I'd stay there and occasionally touch them if they seemed scared but the lack of stimulation worked wonders. The first couple of times they screamed but they screamed around the clock anyway. We also made sure that we WEREN'T quiet while they were sleeping (always at least a radio on) because the background of muffled sounds comforted them.

I've soooo been there! At one point, with my DS, I'd take him on a walk in his carrier until he fell asleep and when we got home I'd just sit back in the recliner and pass out, with him still wrapped in. And one time, I was so exhausted that I just put a blanket on the floor, grabbed him, laid down on the blanket, and konked out. I think he was screaming (he was always screaming) but I fell asleep anyway.
GET SOME SLEEP. Just do it. Don't feel guilty about. Sleeping, eating, and using the toilet are things that are human rights, not privileges. KWIM?
And remember, overstimulated babies aren't screaming because they're scared, they're screaming because they can't... shut... off. And if he's waking up all night, he's probably as miserable as you are. Maybe when he wakes up next to you you should just cuddle him close and go back to sleep (or at least pretend to). He'll survive. He's not scared. He's fine. He's with his mommy. It's definitely not the same thing as CIO.

Also, learning to stand is a big step and mine (still!) having trouble sleeping when they've learned something new. Sort of like kids on Christmas Eve.

Hee, hee. If you had posted this in the gifted forum you would have been even more flooded with responses. Lack of sleep is a constant topic over there.


----------



## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Another idea for the teething is to step away from the Hyland's "shotgun" approach (shoot a whole bunch of remedies at a person, hope one works), and go to single remedies. DS was teething from 4 months old until I don't even know when he stopped, it was non-stop, and it took AGES for a tooth to come through.

Hyland's didn't always work, and when that happened I would really look at his symptoms and then read my homeopathy books, and choose the ONE remedy that fit him the best at that moment. Often it was a remedy already in Hylands! But when I did a single remedy, it always worked. Again, even if it was something already in the multi-remedy tablet.

When you're getting stressed, don't forget the Rescue Remedy for you! Baby too, maybe, but definitely YOU.


----------



## thyme (Jul 17, 2003)

Quote:

I don't understand AP and sleep.
I think that it's actually biologically normal for babies not to sleep and to wake often.

I also think that in tribal times, the daytime and nighttime parenting duties were shared among many women - you would have had your sisters, your mother, your cousins, your friends, all living together with you - allowing you to get a much needed, uninterrupted rest at times.

I realize this doesn't exactly offer help to your current situation, but keeping it in mind really helped me with my expectations of baby/toddler sleep habits, and also in allowing me to ask for outside help more than I thought I "should" by today's standards.


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I just wanted to offer a hug







and let you know that you're not alone. My ds was born a few days after yours. He will only nurse to sleep (otherwise, he cries/fusses to sleep - this does happen when I'm not home since I work and dh stays home). He wakes every hour at night even though we cosleep and he won't nurse lying down, so I have to sit up in the bed, nurse him til he falls asleep again, and then lie down again.

I haven't slept more than a 4 hour stretch in nearly a year, and it's unusual to get 4 whole hours in a row.

I feel like the walking dead.

Fortunately I do not have PPD.







I hope that you have lots of support, counseling, help and if needed, medication, too.

Because we feel ds *can* sleep longer at night, he just isn't because I'm right there, we're implementing a new sleep plan where ds stays with dh all night unless he really needs to nurse. He does have a "hungry" cry. What we discovered (as we had suspected) is that as long as I'm not right next to him, ds will sleep for hours at a time. However, he still needs physical contact so that means dh sleeping with ds in another room. We're doing this temporarily while we try to transition ds to the crib . . . making changes because I'm losing my miiiiiind due to prolonged sleep deprivation.

Could your dh help out a bit like this to give you a break? To allow you to get a good night's sleep a couple of days in a row, or on the weekend?

Our plan is to move away from cosleeping and transition ds to the crib. We won't do it if there's tons of screaming - of course no CIO at all. But he also is a pretty mellow baby and in the carseat, for example, he'll cry a bit, never getting too upset, and then konk out. If it works that way in the crib, I know that it won't be a big deal for him.

I think it's okay to transition him to the crib to help you get some sleep. I would try to engage your partner in helping with this, and before attempting it, I'd make sure you have at least one good night's sleep under your belt so you feel less stressed and frazzled.


----------



## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

A developmental sleep regression is common at that age. DS has never been a good sleeper (last night SUCKED, let me tell ya) but he'd wake every 20 minutes screaming for stretches during the night when he was working on a milestone--especially walking. There have been some improvements over time and we use ibuprofin to survive the bad teething nights.

Just wanted to second that it isn't your fault--they have their own sleep temperaments, for certain. I also read the books and tried all sorts of things, except CIO and night weaning. And it is good you recognize nothing is wrong with you--that it is the lack of sleep affecting your well being. Every time I was on the point of breakdown, he would improve a little bit--getting a couple 2-3 hours sleep stretches at night versus the every hour. But if you can get help from anyone to care for him while you rest that is the ideal!

Best wishes for better sleep!


----------



## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

If it gets too much for you sometimes you have to walk away for 5 or 10 minutes- we have certainly all been there. It will get better I promise. Even though I don't use tylenol a lot- I second the idea of using it when they are in teething pain, especially when "mom" has reached her limit.


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Another vote for nursing lying down so that you don't have to put him down! I found this especially important as my son got bigger and heavier because he was harder to maneuver, so I was more likely to shift his weight in some awkward way that would disturb him. By this age we were nursing on the bed ALWAYS unless we were away from home or it was a time when I didn't want him to go to sleep.

Can he sleep with a light on? One of the things I miss most about nursing is the reading I used to do while he was nursing and falling asleep. Reading kept me occupied so that I didn't mind sticking around until he was out cold (watch for arms and legs to go limp) and wouldn't notice my leaving.








Good luck!


----------



## SkyMomma (Jul 13, 2006)

I'm now on my second very wakeful boy. I remember nursing while dancing DS1 to sleep in the sling. Then sitting in the rocking chair & falling asleep sitting up. Whew. I agree with alot of your PP & would only add two things.

1.) If your DP isn't available, grab a friend or pay a sitter to walk your baby a few nights a week. Ask or higher them to take your little one OUT of the house for a long walk in whatever carrier or conveyance is most sleep inducing. Hopefully he'll sleep, but most importantly YOU can sleep. Try to plan it for whatever time of day/evening you're the most tired. For me that was 3:00 in the afternoon.

2.) You've gotten a couple of posts about overstimulation, but I didn't see anyone suggesting what I've discovered works for DS2. I walk around for a bit (like an hour) with him in the sling...in stages moving from facing out to facing in. When he's yawned a few times & given me other tired cues, I cover his head with the tail of the sling. Literally, cover his head. Like a bird. He complains for a second & then puts his head down & will fall asleep. It's like he just can't turn off on his own.

Good luck. I hope you get some sleep soon!


----------



## VanessaS (May 22, 2007)

I agree with the PP about covering their head in the sling. They fall asleep faster that way.

Another tip, since you said he was standing now, is to get one of those push toys (or, if you're broke, a sturdy dining room chair with felt pads on the bottom) and let him push himself around the house. My DD would do this for HOURS and then fall asleep right on the floor where she stopped.
In other words, wear him out.


----------



## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Hopefully it will get better! My ds started sleeping through the night when I put him on his stomach at 3 1/2 months. I was afraid of SIDS, but felt in my heart that he would be okay, plus the fact that I watched him almost the whole time, made it comfortable for me. Eventually I ended up getting sleep with time.

Except for a few bad nights, we have had good luck with him sleeping through the night.


----------



## fadedgirl (Nov 6, 2008)

My daughter, from birth, barely ever napped and woke up continuously throughout the night until she was 3.5 yo. I went through PPD and every nasty repercussion imaginable that logically flows from an adult never getting more than one to 1.25 hours of sleep at a time for four years (my lack of sleep started started when I was 3 mos pregnant, of all things!).

I do not have time now to expound much further, except to say that if I were you I would have this little sucker overnighted, or drive to the nearest Brookstone to get one. Cheaper knockoffs may not suffice. I did not ever know of or consider one of these things when it would have mattered for me, but other mothers swear by them.

http://www.brookstone.com/sl/product...hine-baby.html

I never had any help from any one, either, and DH is USN. So I was alone A LOT. My other advice is to get help from anybody who will come over and do it & if they don't get how bad it is, scream until they realize you are not joking around. Pump, and then have that person get up in the night to console and feed the babe, NOT YOU. Try to get at least 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep per night. Your life might depend on it, I know mine did.

(please forgive, I didn't have time to read entire thread, so sorry if I repeated same advise as others)

I know where you are and I sooooooo feel for you.


----------



## ahdoula (Sep 5, 2006)

I haven't read all the posts yet, but my first thought is to take your DS to a child knowledgeable chiropractor. Maybe there is another kind of pain that is an issue. How is his mood while awake?


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I've been there, my oldest never slept without me, and at 8 now still needs me to fall asleep. She has SID, and once that was diagnosed, the years of sleep issues made sense to me. And I knew for sure then that no matter what other people hinted at or said directly (and rudely) to me, it was not my fault. Some kids just don't read the western books on how western kids are supposed to sleep.









One thing nobody has asked is if your ds will sleep in the car? My lifesaver for several years was to put dd in the car and drive. Until she slept. Then park up, leave the car running, grab a book, or a blanket, curl up in the front seat, and sleep. Or have dh do that while I went inside to sleep.

Another thing I don't think anyone has suggested is white noise. My dd would sleep sometimes with the hoover going non stop in the background.

I also altered my routine to lie down with her and sleep when she slept. I smiled wryly reading some of the responses here about how to get a child to allow you to leave them while they slept. Rolling off the bed, giving them shirts to lie on that smell of you, etc etc. I tried all that. After an hour or more settling her, I'd reach the door, if I were really, really lucky, then her eyes would pop open, and she'd *SCREAM*. Loud. Non stop. Until I went back and started the entire routine over again. Then she'd scream if I got as far as the bedroom door.

I don't think CIO would have worked for my dd. You can't be sure it will work for your child either, seeing as he is so resistant to sleep already. My personal approach was to adapt my life to take care of my needs alongside my child's. That meant keeping her in the sling for entire naps, while I kept moving around the house. Walking her in the sling or backpack or stroller at night - taking dh with me so that at least we could chat as we walked. Parking the stroller in the garage for her to sleep on while I went to nap on the couch (on a good day.) Driving to run errands in the car at the point that she was really, really tired, so that she'd go off to sleep without having to be touching me, when I was really touched out.

These are all just suggestions. I hope that you find some answers, and get some sleep and easier times.


----------



## Beth F (Apr 19, 2006)

I've been there and am still there some weeks with the hourly wake ups. This is what I noticed with our children. Some children are genetically sleepers. Not mine. For me, reading the books made my attitude worse. I need to only focus on my children. I can't read about how short it takes someone to put their child to sleep either. Yes, these are AP mamas. It took me 3-4 hours/night of nursing and rocking to put ds to sleep. For a while, it took two hours of rocking and nursing every night to put dd to sleep. It is getting easier though. Also, I think that our children need less sleep but I will not look at the statistics anymore. It's not good for me or my children.

After trial and error, I found that once ds was 22mo old, he needed to be awake for 8 hours after a nap in order to fall asleep. DD is the same way now. This long awake time after nap started as "needed to be awake for 6 hours" around 10mo, then 7 hours around 18mo.

Both of my children, nap-nursed until they were around 16mo for ds and 21mo for dd. They only lightly slept while they nursed for hours. If I unlatched, they were startled awake. If you could nap your child in a carrier nursing, that may be helpful. Mine didn't do well with napping in a carrier unless I walked for a long, long time. As they got close to the ages I mentioned above, they unlatched during the nap and slept for 1/2 hour, and it slowly increased from there. Now, our younger one can nap 1.5 hours independent from me unless she's getting a cold or has a bad rash from yeast.

The other thing that affects their sleep is food. I now know that we have a lot of food sensitivities here - our children, dh, and I. I sleep poorly if I eat certain foods, and I've noticed the same pattern with both of our children and dh. For example, if I eat raw apples, our younger one sleeps worse. If she eats them, her sleep degrades even more.

Also, we all have yeast overgrowth. I think that affects our sleep too. It made a difference for dh once he went on a prescription anti-fungal. I'm using more gentle anti-fungals on the rest of us.

If DH were watching me type this right now, he'd mention vitamin D too. Our holistic-inclined, MD pedi recommends taking CLO before bed. Our children and I have sensitivities to that. So, we take Vit D drops.

I hope that you can get a chance to get a deep sleep cycle soon....umm, me too.


----------



## joshs_girl (Dec 8, 2006)

Another recommendation for the Sears' Sleep Book.

My DD has been a decent night sleeper, but a pisspoor napper. After reading the book, I realized she needed to go to sleep a lot sooner than I thought she did. So now, she's up for no more than two hours before going down for the next nap. Sometimes it takes her quite a while to fall asleep once she's in bed (we'll co-nap) or in the sling, but once she gets in her sleeping place, there's no more fighting sleep.

Definitely enlist the help of a family member until your husband gets back in town, as both mama and baby need sleep!


----------



## LCBMAX (Jun 18, 2008)

If you do want to use white noise, you can download the ones my husband made for us for free from:
http://cantonbecker.com/music/white-noise-sleep-sounds/

The one we use every night is #3 -- we play it off a little speaker in the bedroom, and it helps us lots (not that I don't need more sleep, I do, but I'd be more desperate without it.)

I echo all the suggestions about getting any help at all - even a judgmental relative who will hold the baby tenderly is worth the time you need to have a deep solo nap (for which I use earplugs AND the white noise too, so if the baby cries, I can't hear it.)

A local birthing center may also know of a volunteer program that will send out an experienced "grandma" to help for free or low cost. Ours is called "many mothers".

Thinking of you.


----------



## Sunshine4004 (Nov 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Violet2* 
ETA: Introduce a lovey every time you nurse so he has a 'security blanket' aside from the boobs. This may help as well.

I am a huge advocate of the lovey idea. My DS loved to nurse to fall asleep and stay asleep and still does on occasion. I often wore my chenile robe while nursing. He has a 'lovey blanket' that feels like my robe and hw sleeps with it now at night and for naps. He actually likes to lay it right beside his face like my robe would be if he were nursing.

Some others mentioned overstimulation. I seem to have better luck getting Quinn to sleep if I don't wait until he is too tired. I just lay him in his crib or the pack and play with his lovey blanket and occasionally his pacifer (if he is extra sleepy or fussy). He is only allowed his pacifer when he is in desparate need of sleep so he seems to know this is a signal to keep quiet. I leave a TV, radio or his music on to work as white noise so that he doesn't awake at every little noise.

Quinn is still not a good napper but I am lucky that he sleeps well at night. I really feel pity for you because I know I do not function well when I am sleep deprived.


----------



## MamatoPeach (Nov 15, 2008)

The best advice I read is to just stop thinking about it. I read every book, searched the net when I could, and talked to everyone. Tried everything including letting her cry, which only lasted about 5-10 mins because it broke my heart. Some babies just need to know that mom is there.

When we gave up, things started to get better. It was like our obsessing over the sleep made it worse and made it a problem.

Good luck, I know it sucks.

Our daughter is now sleeping through the night at 15mo, in bed with us. All night.


----------



## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

I have removed several posts that were violating the User Agreement by advocating "crying it out" (CIO). There are many ways to balance and meet our child's and our own need for sleep while maintaining attachment and our child's trust in us, and those methods are what we discuss on this board. Please PM me with any questions.


----------



## birthmommom (Apr 25, 2004)

I am so sorry that you are going through this.

my ds is only a month older than yours and he doesn't sleep well either. I will say that we did CIO and I totally don't recommend it. We did it for a week and a half and he ended up having the worse sleep anxiety. He would cry when you even stood next to his crib.

so we have been doing a certain kind of sleep training where you sit next to the bed until he is asleep. You are supposed to eventually move your chair until you are out of the room but we fudged it a little and moved a large chair in the room and I read my book while he goes to sleep.
I will say though that we are not nursing anymore and he is mostly on solid foods. I am not sure if your LO is there yet.

Good luck mama. Oh and we have this book it has a section on co sleeping and it breaks it down into ages. It has been somewhat helpful. oh and our ds is a crappy napper too...only about 40 mins a day!








s


----------

