# Sister leaving 2 little ones for 3 weeks!!



## Happy Becky (Apr 1, 2004)

I just HAVE to post this....to vent or whatever! I just cannot fathom doing this myself!!

My sister is 23 and has a 3 yr old son and 18 mo. dd. It seems like my sister and brother-in-law wanted kids early and now that they have them, they're too immature to quit acting like dumb kids and like a real Mommy and Daddy. I don't know...

My brother-in-law is in Korea for one year and my sister is leaving on the 24th to go visit him for two weeks. She's going to leave her two kids with his parents!! The worst part is, to make the "drop-off" easier, she's taking them to meet her father-in-law 4 days early so that it falls on the weekend! So now by the time they are there for 4 days, my sister is in Korea for two weeks and gets back to get them, the kids will be at their grandparents house for 3 weeks w/o Mommy or Daddy!!! I just cannot fathom doing this to my kids! 3 weeks is WAY too long! My nephew--3 yo-- had a VERY rough time with the transition to his Daddy being gone when he went to Korea in May. He's been acting up like crazy lately and I don't think my sister knows how to deal with him or discipline him lovingly so I think he's running amuck and I'm afraid for what this three week separation is going to do to him now! The kids are not going to be able to understand that in 21 days Mommy will be back...that she just went on a long vacation without them!!

Also, this was their first week in a brand new day care full-time instead of part-time...don't even get me started on this issue!! My sister goes to school every morning from 8-11 or 12 so the kids were in daycare for the mornings after their Daddy left. Now she switched them to a different day care for all day so that she can have more time to do whatever...she's a massage therapist and wants to build her clientell...but also now she can go to the gym by herself, go grocery shopping by herself, etc. etc. It just seems so crazily selfish to me! I just could not do it! _I'm not trying to undermine the hardship she is going thru, with her hubbie deployed for a year_, basically being a single parent for a whole year, etc...but it seems to me there has got to be other ways to deal with it and get some "alone" time to keep her sanity. It just makes me feel like she is NOT ready to drop her own priorities to be a M-O-M-M-Y. It seems so selfish and immature to me!

I just really feel that it is my calling to be a Mom and that being one is THE single most important job on the earth! I am willing to forsake myself for my kids' comfort, etc. She's just not doing that and I can't see where she's coming from.

I should stop now...what do you all think?? I'm sad for my nephew and niece!


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## A Boy's Mama (May 15, 2007)

So it's somehow better for the kids to be picked up from daycare where they are playing with other kids and having fun so they can go grocery shopping with their mom or hang out watching the tube or whatever while she works with a client? I understand that you're saying you're upset for your neice and nephew but it sounds to me like something else is going on for you to be so angry about this. The situation you describe just doesn't really sound like the end of the world to me.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

It just seems so crazily selfish to me!
It sounds like her way of coping to me. Full time daycare is not something I would use, but I certainly call in help when dh is out of town or working more than usual. I can't imagine how much it would suck if he were away for a year.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I think everyone parents differently. I try not to say which is better or worse, just that there are different styles that work for different families.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

poor babies. 3 weeks is so long, too long, especially in their age.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A Boy's Mama* 
So it's somehow better for the kids to be picked up from daycare where they are playing with other kids and having fun so they can go grocery shopping with their mom .

am i the only one to think that grocery shopping with a parent, being included and part of the family, is more valuable and a better confidence builder, than playing in an institutional setting? we have fun grocery shopping together! most of the time.


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## glorified_rice (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana* 
am i the only one to think that grocery shopping with a parent, being included and part of the family, is more valuable and a better confidence builder, than playing in an institutional setting? we have fun grocery shopping together! most of the time.

No you're not the only one







Grocery shopping is something we always do as a family. I don't really care what the activity is, most kids, I think, would prefer to be with their parent over a childcare center. I'm not going to pass judgment on your sister, OP, because I'm sure she is going through a very challenging time, but I think I would feel as frustrated as you do.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

OP, I'm curious...what help have you offered her during this difficult time?


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## Terrilein (Jan 9, 2007)

Wow, three weeks is an awefully long time, but I'd give her credit for bringing the kids to her IL's a few days in advance of the trip to get the "acclimated". She's still there if they (the children or the IL's) really need her to get through those first few rough days. I just hope she calls them every few days to remind them that she'll be back soon. I remember vividly going on a two-week vacation with my dd sans Papa when she was 18 months - from her behavior I think she thought we weren't ever going home again and she missed her Papa terribly. We tried calling him, but kept missing him and I didn't want to put a strain on my brother's phone bill by making over-seas phone calls every day. DD did finally adjust, but when we finally got home, she looked unhappy to be on the move again and then it clicked with her. She recognized our home and Papa came running to the door to greet her. She was sooooooo happy. Her world was whole again.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

If her and dh really need this time together I think it is actually a good idea. For many kids having mom/dad in a positive, healthy relationship is a huge benefit. I think the trip could help the parents' relationship. Two or three weeks in the course of one year is not much time to spend with dh.

I actually think the trip may be a great thing. The kids are also with grandma/grandpa, she didn't abandon them!


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## Lingmom (Apr 10, 2007)

At a guess, I think it sounds as if she's making the choices that she thinks will benefit her family best. If seeing her husband for two weeks in a year might make their marriage stronger, then it might well be in the best interest of her kids.

If building her business brings in more money to her family or supports her own career and brings her happiness, then it's probably also in the best interest of her kids.

And if it's true that she's immature or not entirely ready to be mom, it sounds as if enrolling her children in a day care or including the support of her in-laws is probably also in the children's best interest.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

WHAT?!?!?!?
I can't believe you're getting so many "whatever" responses.







:
My son is 15 months and I'm going to be the only one staying at a hotel all night with the baby while everyone else in dh's family goes out in the city....because I won't leave him even for 4 hours to have fun. We'll have fun just the two of us. (I tried to leave him with my mom for two hours and he's just not ready.) I can't imagine three weeks. And full time day care......okay.
I think you're right to be heart broken for those babies.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I really think it is important to take into account the fact that your sister is dealing with a spouse who is deployed for 12 months. Korea is not a combat zone etc but it isn't a "fun" place to be deployed. (my brother was deployed in Korea) So many marriages break up or hit rough spots over year long deployments that I think it is a good thing that she is using some resources to focus on her marriage. How is that bad for the kids in the long run?

Leaving your children for 3 weeks on a whim for a "vacation" is IMO a completely different beast than leaving them to go visit your dh/their father. Dealing with a spouse being GONE is a difficult experience that may cause people to do things they otherwise wouldn't consider. I also think lightening up on her using daycare full time is in order. She is going to school, dealing with her husband being gone, spending at least some time working on a business, maybe the time off helps her be a better mama and more "on" when she is with her kids.

I would worry about how she is handling her son's separation issues, discipline etc because I think those things would be really hard for anyone to deal with. She may just be a woman who feels a little overwhelmed. Not everybody can be superwoman and that doesn't make her a bad person or bad mother. I guess I would need a little more insight into exactly what is wrong with this situation before I would be willing to say there is a problem.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Would you prefer she take these two kids with her to Korea? (international travel involves ALL kinds of fun stuff - passports for both kids, both kids would be required to have ticketed seats, so that just tripled the cost of the flight, not to mention the stress of 2 small kids on a flight that long by herself...)

IMO, I don't see what she's doing is wrong or bad, and my heart is NOT breaking for her kids. They get to spend 3 fun weeks with Grandma and Grandpa!!!

To be honest, if my husband were sent to Korea for a year, I'd be leaving my kids with their grandparents so I could visit him, too.

It sounds to me like you have no concept of what it's really like to have your spouse deployed for a year, and left to manage 2 kids on your own. You don't feel comfortable with married couples, cause your partner isn't with you, and you're not welcome amongst single parents because you have the audacity to still be married...never mind that you have this constant nagging fear in the back of your mind that you may never see your spouse alive again, and how would you explain to your kids that their mommy/daddy is never coming home?

IMO, if you're sad about your niece/nephew staying with their grandparents for 3 weeks, offer to watch them for a week - or just butt out.

ETA: Korea is not an official combat zone, but it is considered a hardship/dangerous tour, which is why families aren't allowed to accompany their soldiers there. Not "officially" a war zone, but close enough that I don't want my kids near a military base there.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillkuster* 
WHAT?!?!?!?
I can't believe you're getting so many "whatever" responses.







:
My son is 15 months and I'm going to be the only one staying at a hotel all night with the baby while everyone else in dh's family goes out in the city....because I won't leave him even for 4 hours to have fun. We'll have fun just the two of us. (I tried to leave him with my mom for two hours and he's just not ready.) I can't imagine three weeks. And full time day care......okay.
I think you're right to be heart broken for those babies.

But that's you. That doesn't mean what she's doing is wrong or amounts to being a bad parent or neglected children in need of someone's breaking heart.

When DS was just turning 2 years old he and BF took a week long trip with BF's parents and sister, BIL and their kids. DS had finished nursing and I didn't go because I needed some time alone, didn't have any desire to go to Hilton Head (gag) and I knew how much fun BF and DS would have with everyone. DS had so much fun and didn't miss me at all, despite never being away from me before. But he was with family and in capable and loving hands.

And then at almost 5 BF and I were offered an all expense once in a life time 2 week trip to Paris. After some hemming and hawing we took the trip and DS stayed with my parents. And again he LOVED it. He still glows when he talks about it two years later. He was with people who adore him and engage him and honour who he is - and these aren't people who live near by either. But man that kid and my parents are so bonded. We didn't talk every day - that just wasn't practical or needed. And just in case this needs to be said, DS is and has always been wonderfully attached. He was still co-sleeping during both times away from me. The first time he co-slept with BF (his dad) and while BF and I were in France he co-slept with my parents. He's turning 7 and still carried while we're out, usually by piggy back but often carried in my arms. He feels loved and secure.

Neither times were myself or BF neglecting to be parents. And when he decided to add DS to our lives it wasn't to drop everything and be M-O-M-M-Y and D-A-D-D-Y and in fact as the mother of a son it's even more important to me that DS not see me as someone who put her whole life on hold to parent him, without accepting help from family, friends and community, and to the detriment of myself and exclusion of my needs. Too many men in our culture have been raised to believe it is a woman's job to put his needs first and I don't feel the need to perpetuate that. That's not healthy or balanced. But living consensually is really important to us and that means we all work together to make sure we're all getting what we need.

It sounds like your niece and nephew are getting what they need and are surrounded by loving caregivers and family. What's heartbreaking about that? Having worked in shelters I can tell you a lot of heartbreaking stories; a story about children staying with loving grandparents and who attend day care while their mom works on her schooling and business isn't one of them.


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## paulaf (Jul 9, 2007)

If she were my sister, I think I would try to cut her some slack. Granted, 3 weeks is a long time, but if it helps her marriage... I have always read that in a healthy family, the spouses take care of the marriage first, then the children. DH and I left Zoey with my parents for a week when she was 3. It was harder on my parents than on her. However, if the grandparents are up to taking care of little ones for that long - the spoiling may be good for both sides. And what an opportunity for the grandparents and grandkids to get to know each other!!

As for the daycare, as long as it is a good program, the kids may love going. Of course they will miss mom, but the lure of good activities and toys that they probably don't have at home will make daycare pretty enticing to the little ones. The structure of an organized program may also be very beneficial to your nephew. Considering his dad left and his mom has an unpredictable schedule, structure may be a good thing right now.

As for taking the kids to day care instead of grocery shopping, keep in mind - it's grocery shopping! She is not out partying, but taking care of her family's needs. Sure the kids will have to learn how to behave when they are out and about with mom, but they can start learning that on shorter trips, like when she has to make a quick run for milk or bread on Sunday evening. If mom can get her chores done while the kids are at daycare, she may well be more apt to do something like take the kids to the park or the movies. Considering that mom is, for all intents and purposes, a single mom right now, I think daycare might be a reasonable option to help her lessen her stressload.

Paula


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_why can't the kids go with her? i sorry it's late so i may have missed the reason but i think i would be bending over backwards to make sure it was a "family trip"... i'm not going to give you a whatever response b/c i would be upset...those poor babies...i know it has to be a hard thing to deal with but maybe i'm tainted by all the stories of dads deployed and mom ships the kids off to daycare and has an affair (happened to several of my guy friends) i would think that she would want to spend extra time w/her kids to make up for dad being gone...this is just my sleepy rambling but i think the kids (wow they are still REALLY young) would need mommy more than ever..._


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_why can't the kids go with her? i sorry it's late so i may have missed the reason but i think i would be bending over backwards to make sure it was a "family trip"..._


Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie*
ETA: Korea is not an official combat zone, but it is considered a hardship/dangerous tour, *which is why families aren't allowed to accompany their soldiers there*. Not "officially" a war zone, but close enough that I don't want my kids near a military base there.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_...this is just my sleepy rambling but i think the kids (wow they are still REALLY young) would need mommy more than ever..._

They have their mom. Kids in day care are not parent-less. They are not abandoned or unloved or neglected and they make up the majority of kids in North America. And while their mom is planning to be away they will be with family. Family who love them and know how to take care of them and will most likely cherish the time they have with them. This idea that kids can't be away from their mom and in the care of other trusted, loving, competent and loved (by the kids) caregivers is unhealthy and puts too big a burden on mothers. For a variety of reasons moms aren't always or can't always be with their kids 24/7 and instead of damning them maybe we need to look at how to support them.

Kaydee asked an important question up thread and I hope the OP comes back to answer it.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

She is coming to Korea for a couple weeks to visit her DH. The kids get to spend a few weeks with their grandparents. Saying that she is selfish because she isn't bringing the kids to Korea with her (the flights are expensive and getting a passport takes forever, which is beside the point) feels almost like a slap in the face to those of us mommas who had to leave our dc behind for *52 weeks* while we are in Korea. Because we were not permitted to bring our families. (Not everyone has command sponsorship--and not everyone can afford to bring their families over on their own). I hope she has a pleasant stay in Korea. I wish my husband could come to Seoul. However, because of the price of plane tix and the passport issues, I will be visiting them in the US.


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## JustJamie (Apr 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
She is coming to Korea for a couple weeks to visit her DH. The kids get to spend a few weeks with their grandparents. Saying that she is selfish because she isn't bringing the kids to Korea with her (the flights are expensive and getting a passport takes forever, which is beside the point) feels almost like a slap in the face to those of us mommas who had to leave our dc behind for *52 weeks* while we are in Korea. Because we were not permitted to bring our families. (Not everyone has command sponsorship--and not everyone can afford to bring their families over on their own). I hope she has a pleasant stay in Korea. I wish my husband could come to Seoul. However, because of the price of plane tix and the passport issues, I will be visiting them in the US.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

Three weeks without mum is a long time for small kids. A year apart is a long time in a relationship. I'd say they are the only people who can decide which choice is best for their family, and I can't really judge them for whichever choice they made.

I wouldn't like to be put in that situation at all. However, I can see myself going to see my DP, even if it meant leaving kids behind. I don't think it's a selfish choice as such (unless wanting to have a happy family counts as selfish). I wouldn't want to be so attached to my kids that I'd drift apart from my DP. If taking the kids with me was an option, I'd probably do that. But the situation in Korea, as has been mentioned by several pp's, might not be the best for kids. I honestly don't know enough to say whether I'd take them with me or not, I'd have to find out more about it.

As for the daycare thing, I really think most people (and that includes mums, they are human, after all) need time for themselves. I don't have kids yet so I don't know what my own me-time need level will be, but I do think it's important for people to get that need met. I don't know if I'd be comfortable saying that someone else is doing something wrong simply because they need more or less downtime than me.

But then again, I don't think being a mother is the most important job in the world, so we already disagree there.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

2lilsweetfoxes,









Those of you condemning this mom can you read 2lilsweetfoxes' post. Do you see her sig:

Quote:

Missing my darling children. 10 months until I am with them again.
Can you imagine how this thread sounds to her? To her desire to have her husband visit her while she's away?

Unless anyone posting on this thread has first hand experience with a spouse deployed and running a house, caring on her/his own for two small children while also attending school and trying to get a business off the ground I don't think they can judge.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
They have their mom. Kids in day care are not parent-less. They are not abandoned or unloved or neglected and they make up the majority of kids in North America. And while their mom is planning to be away they will be with family. Family who love them and know how to take care of them and will most likely cherish the time they have with them. This idea that kids can't be away from their mom and in the care of other trusted, loving, competent and loved (by the kids) caregivers is unhealthy and puts too big a burden on mothers. For a variety of reasons moms aren't always or can't always be with their kids 24/7 and instead of damning them maybe we need to look at how to support them.

Kaydee asked an important question up thread and I hope the OP comes back to answer it.


_umm... JustJamie isn't the OP Happy Becky is..._

_i know they have their mom...never said kids in day care were parentless nor would i ever say such a thing, you assumed that...*abandoned or unloved or neglected* isn't that making a huge leap? i never said kids couldn't be away from their mothers, sure they can but 21 days is pushing it yk? well for my family and alotta people i know anyways...i'm sorry but you don't seem to have got my post (no snark)_

_the point was these kids ARE young, dad is gone for a YEAR and i would think w/one parent being gone the other parent would spend EXTRA time with the kids...but that's just how i do things, the op wanted opinions and i gave mine, never expected it to be pick apart but oh well...stuff happens







_


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
She is coming to Korea for a couple weeks to visit her DH. The kids get to spend a few weeks with their grandparents. Saying that she is selfish because she isn't bringing the kids to Korea with her (the flights are expensive and getting a passport takes forever, which is beside the point) feels almost like a slap in the face to those of us mommas who had to leave our dc behind for *52 weeks* while we are in Korea. Because we were not permitted to bring our families. (Not everyone has command sponsorship--and not everyone can afford to bring their families over on their own). I hope she has a pleasant stay in Korea. I wish my husband could come to Seoul. However, because of the price of plane tix and the passport issues, I will be visiting them in the US.

_please tell me where i said this mom was being selfish? i just asked why the kids couldn't go!_


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

>>please tell me where i said this mom was being selfish? i just asked why the kids couldn't go!

Maybe they cannot afford the $4500 average it would cost for three plane tickets (assuming they live near a major international hub such as New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, or San Francisco) and buying mom's ticket is stretching their budget. I paid almost $3000 for a round trip ticket just for myself to go home to Oklahoma this weekend for a couple weeks. I am going to assume the children may not have passports and mom cannot wait to take the trip because of school or work committments.

Otherwise, if EFMP (Exceptional Family Member Program--the program for special needs family members of military servicemembers) could clear my autistic son to come to Korea, and he could get the therapies he requires here, I would have fought for a command sponsorship. And would stay until I was kicked out of the country. It is really nice and pretty child friendly. Just stay out of the bar district at night...


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_umm... JustJamie isn't the OP Happy Becky is..._

I didn't confuse that. It was JustJamie who answered the question why the kids couldn't go with mom and I re-posted it as it seems you missed it. JustJamie isn't the OP but she knows about deployment to Korea and was able to clear up why the kids aren't going with mom, aside from the extravagant expense for a military family with a family member in school.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_i know they have their mom...never said kids in day care were parentless nor would i ever say such a thing, you assumed that...*abandoned or unloved or neglected* isn't that making a huge leap? i never said kids couldn't be away from their mothers, sure they can but 21 days is pushing it yk? well for my family and alotta people i know anyways...i'm sorry but you don't seem to have got my post (no snark)_

I did get your post and you seem to be assuming this mom isn't there for her kids or there EXTRA. You wrote you think they need their mom more now and I'm just arguing the idea that she isn't there more for them now. And even if she isn't every day all day neither are any of us. If we're honest none of us are there 100% for our kids all the time but we love them and care for them as best as we can at the time. And there's nothing wrong with that. It wasn't just your post either, but the ones earlier saying the kids don't need to be in care and that it's heartbreaking etc. Yours was just another one showing very little support for what is, I'm sure, a very tough situation for this woman and her family and one I'm glad I have the luxury to not be in.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_the point was these kids ARE young, dad is gone for a YEAR and i would think w/one parent being gone the other parent would spend EXTRA time with the kids...but that's just how i do things, the op wanted opinions and i gave mine, never expected it to be pick apart but oh well...stuff happens







_

She is spending EXTRA time with her babes. She's spending a great more deal unsupported time than most parents. She's parenting all on her own while missing her spouse and doing everything else that needs doing (school, house, business etc). My guess is she's taking on way more than I am and my son's with me every day all day. But I get the option of going out for a walk when BF gets home, or seeing a movie with friends, or having a bath uninterrupted or just sitting down and letting BF do the bedtime stuff or read to DS. I also have the luxury of knowing how BF is doing simply by looking in his eyes when he walks through the door.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I too was wondering what kind of support the OP has been offering her sister in these difficult times. I can't imagine how overwhelming it must be to have a husband away for 1 year.

I find this quote very harsh for example:

*My sister is 23 and has a 3 yr old son and 18 mo. dd. It seems like my sister and brother-in-law wanted kids early and now that they have them, they're too immature to quit acting like dumb kids and like a real Mommy and Daddy. I don't know...

*It sounds like you and your sister don't have a good relationship. Have you told her how you feel and have you offered any help? Wouldn't it be reasonable to cut her some slack and try to put yourself in her shoes? I mean, her husband is away for 1 year and she wants to go see him for a little bit. Though I have never traveled for more than 2 days without the kids, I can see how it could be too complicated and expensive to bring little ones to Korea. The fact she wants to see the daddy of her children is a good thing - it helps her marriage which will also help the kids!

I think it would be nice if we all tried to give each other the benefit of the doubt - specially when the person in question is our own sister...


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

Is there something more going on that I am just not getting? I cant fathom being this angry about something like this? Yes, 3 weeks is a long time to be away from mom. But while children are very important, the family as a whole is important as well. My husband is the light of my life, my soulmate, my best friend... it would kill me to have him away from me for a year, and you can bet I'd be out there to visit him if I could... more than once if I could.

These children are not with a stranger. They are with their grandparents. If they are going to daycare during the day, then they will have that same setting when mom is gone that they have while she is here, giving them extra structure and normalacy. Even if not, as PPs have said, its a great way for them to bond w/ their grandparents.

When my DD was 16 mos, I went to Palm Springs w/ my husband on a business trip (his, not mine). I left my DD and my 12 yr old DS with my parents, in my home, for 5 days. (he was gone for 8 and i met him there) I almost did not go because I was afraid of how my daughter would be affected. I have to say that going was the best decision I ever made. My parents fell in love with their granddaughter, who they never really got to bond with. My son even elected to go back to Fla w/ my parents for another 3 weeks after DH and I got back. Leaving them together was a gift for my parents that I could have never imagined. And those 5 days with my husband were like another honeymoon for us. We got to really reconnect after the year of taking care of an infant and putting ourselves second to their needs. We fell in love all over again, and our relationship has been strong ever since we came back (that was in Feb) It was the healthiest thing I could do for all of us.


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## fiddledebi (Nov 20, 2003)

I think parenting is full of lots of difficult decisions like this one -- but I agree with the posts that reminded us of how important it is to stay sane as a mom and to stay connected as a couple.

I also wanted to mention a friend of mine whose 18 month old son went for SIX WEEKS to stay alone with his grandparents half-way across the country. My friend and her DH, 5yo DD and 18mDS live in Wisconsin. DS had been sick with colds and ear infections (with tubes) for four straight months with no break. They went to visit her inlaws in California and he started to get better, so the inlaws offered to keep him there until their planned visit to Wisconsin six weeks later. My friend agreed and left her son (he wasn't nursing anymore), went home with her daughter and husband to her job (she owns her own bakery business). This little boy stayed with DOTING grandparents the whole time, got healthier, and came home happy.

Do I think it was the right thing to do? I honestly don't know. I think if I thought my child needed a change of climate to improve her health, I would probably find a way to make it happen with me there...but then again, my business is portable and my friend's is not. I think it was a really tough decision. I don't know how many iterations of options they went through before landing on this one -- but the kid was ok, I'll say that much. I think I probably wouldn't do it...but I also hope I'll never be faced with the choice.

I would like to hear what the OP has offered her little sister in terms of help this year. The only change I'd have made in the sister's plan was to stay at her parents' house for the four days before she leaves, to help acclimate her kids to the environment with her there, if possible. Still, what a tough decision. Again, I'm glad I didn't need to make it myself.


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## Lovenest (Apr 12, 2006)

I am guessing this is not the only reason you are upset with them?
Maybe the sister is doing alot more "immature" stuff as she said and this is yet another time she is leaving the kids behind..

That said I can see both points on her not taking the kids. I am mostly thinking the dad would be missing out seeing the kids, but maybe financially they cant afford it or maybe the sister does not feel she can handle both kids in a different country.

whatever the reason I would try to help out the grandparents and maybe take them for a few days or even to the park a few times. Maybe you can make a bonding experience out of this?

I also dont think we should be beating up the mama who posted this, sounds like she is upset and maybe did not word everything right or explain. Most likely needs someone to listen not ask her what has she done for her sister..


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## mamatowill (Aug 23, 2004)

My DH has worked overseas for 2.5 years now. He has been in the middle east and it was not family friendly. I have left my DS for a week every summer to go and visit my DH. Ds loved it! He stayed with doting grandparents and they spoiled him rotten. DH was somewhere he could be killed at any time and of course I went to see him and we could not afford to fly both DS and myself over. It was tough but DS has no ill effects from it. This summer I am bringing DS with me since it is a safer country and he absolutely adores his daddy but it was also a tough decision. I can understand why your sister is doing that. I have been there done that for over 2 years.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Definitely sounds like there is more to this story than what was posted. However from what was posted there is nothing that would give me reason to say OMG, those poor babies.

For starters daycare is not always some evil thing and as someone who was a single Mama at 23 and worked ft, I can tell you that many times I left work early to get things done like grocery shopping and haircuts. Practically speaking it was a hell of a lot easier to get errands done sans son then bringing him along. I also know as a single parent, you take your breaks when you can since there is no partner coming home at 5 or 6 to help out and as we all know parenting doesn't just stop at 7 or 8 in the evening.

Seems to me this Mama is making the best choices she can with her resources, yes it would be great if the whole family could go see Daddy but my guess is its not practical for a variety of reasons. Now if Mom was leaving the kids and going off to the Carribean with friends while Dad is stationed in Korea that would be a whole other story. But a wife trying to stay connected with Dad isn't a bad thing and kids being left with grandparents isn't like she is leaving with them with some knuckleheads she met at the laudromat or something crazy.

However as others have asked what is the OP doing to help her sister during this time? I don't mean that in a snarky manner either just curious.

Shay


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

Sometimes parents need to leave their children for work or to make the family work.... and that is ok. If they are left in a loving place, they will be ok in the long run. If I was in that situtuation, I would send my children to my parents' home and go as well. We were almost in the oposite situation of that once.

Back when my oldest was a baby (she was just about 1), I was set to go on deployment for a year to Germany. Since I was National Guard rather than full time army, they wouldn't allow for my family to go with me. My husband was planning on sending DD to my parents' for a few weeks to come and visit me. I really wanted for both to make the trip, but it was going to be so expensive, we weren't sure if we would be able to manage it..... just DH visiting was going to be a huge stretch. The deployment ended up being called off, so in the end I didn't have to leave, but I can really feel for your sister's situation with her DH.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana* 
am i the only one to think that grocery shopping with a parent, being included and part of the family, is more valuable and a better confidence builder, than playing in an institutional setting? we have fun grocery shopping together! most of the time.

Yes. I do not judge the other Mom for doing what she needs to .. but I certainly couldn't do it. My 4.5 year old son goes to preschool/daycare in the morning so I can WOH. It's the same price no matter when I pick him up, but I ALWAYS try to get him right after lunch, at noon. Sometimes I have to leave him through nap if I'm out with a client, but even then I'll get him by 1:30pm. At first, everyone kept acting like I was picking him up soooo early .. lots kids there have working parents who leave them from 8am to 6pm.

I'm sorry, I just can't do that. I pick him up as soon as I can, and we grocery shop and do errands together. I'd have him with me all day long if I could .. but he really enjoys the social interaction with other preschoolers. I just can't imagine leaving him ALL DAY LONG unless I seriously had no other choice.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I can't see a single thing to critisize about this mother's choices, not that its anyone's business to critisize in the first place. Taking a half a day every day to manage, coordinate a household and start up a business is reasonable. Taking advantage of an opportunity to see her husband, and taking advantage of loving grandparents for childcare, is reasonable. Plenty of grandparents are actively involved in raising their grandchildren -- its a very common and very healthy way to organize a family. Unless there is more to the story, this woman appears to be using the support that she has available to her.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

It would not be good for my and dh's marriage if we were together without our baby. We would just spend the time crying for her together.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Happy Becky* 
I just HAVE to post this....to vent or whatever! I just cannot fathom doing this myself!!

My sister is 23 and has a 3 yr old son and 18 mo. dd. It seems like my sister and brother-in-law wanted kids early and now that they have them, they're too immature to quit acting like dumb kids and like a real Mommy and Daddy. I don't know...

My brother-in-law is in Korea for one year...My nephew--3 yo-- had a VERY rough time with the transition to his Daddy being gone when he went to Korea in May. He's been acting up like crazy lately and I don't think my sister knows how to deal with him or discipline him lovingly so I think he's running amuck and I'm afraid for what this three week separation is going to do to him now!
!

First of all, I'm a military spouse, and I taught right off of a military base. EVERY SINGLE CHILD I knew who had a parent deploy, or do a tour in Korea, reacted in some unusual way. Many "acted up like crazy" and ran "amock"...at least for a few weeks or so. Those who didn't became uncharacterisitcally quiet and worried. The same held true when mom/dad came back. I had one little boy whose mom was in Korea for an unaccompanied tour. Dad warned me when Mom was visiting and also when Mom came home, because the kid was just "off". I had other students whose parents deployed/re-deployed from the Middle East. You can always tell...it has nothing to do with the job the parent at home is doing...even the "best-behaved" kids have issues when a parent deploys or redeploys.

It seems to me your sister is very mature, from what you've said. She's 23, taking care of two young children, running/building her own business, going to school, and managing a household and long-distance marriage pretty much on her own. If she takes a couple of hours a day extra to manage everything, more power to her for recognizing her for finding a solution. Some daycares are quite good, and some children thrive in it, regardless of what some of us like to think. (I say this as a SAHM, btw, and my DD's never been in day care, so I'm not pushing an agenda).

It sounds to me that you're not happy with the choices she's made in life (marrying and having kids early, perhaps BIL being in the miltiary, etc.). But, just because they're not your choices, doesn't mean she's "wrong". From what you've said it sounds like she's got her head on her shoulders, and is doing everything "right".


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## Mom2Joseph (May 31, 2006)

Hugs. I saw in another post that you are struggling with PPD. Perhaps you are jealous that your sister gets "a break" for 3 weeks that you are not getting?

Your post does not describe immature people. Your sister is apparently making good, sound decisions based on her current abilities to handle her situation right now. And it sounds like she's doing a damn good job of it. I commend this woman for taking steps to care for herself, her marriage and her children by accepting help and finding creative solutions to make this horrid situation livable for a year.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
>>*please tell me where i said this mom was being selfish? i just asked why the kids couldn't go!*

Maybe they cannot afford the $4500 average it would cost for three plane tickets (assuming they live near a major international hub such as New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, or San Francisco) and buying mom's ticket is stretching their budget. I paid almost $3000 for a round trip ticket just for myself to go home to Oklahoma this weekend for a couple weeks. I am going to assume the children may not have passports and mom cannot wait to take the trip because of school or work committments.

Otherwise, if EFMP (Exceptional Family Member Program--the program for special needs family members of military servicemembers) could clear my autistic son to come to Korea, and he could get the therapies he requires here, I would have fought for a command sponsorship. And would stay until I was kicked out of the country. It is really nice and pretty child friendly. Just stay out of the bar district at night...

_you still didn't answer where I SAID that ANYONE was selfish...i'm pretty sure it wasn't answered b/c *I NEVER SAID IT*, i usually don't make it a habit to call people i don't know names....







_

_yeah i know a flight would expensive but, i was asking the op what sis's reason was...on price line the flight would be about 8,000 to go so of course i see THAT can be a factor, just like mom doesn't want them to go CAN be a factor. i can think up quite a few reasons why the kids aren't going but i was more intrested in the ops answer sorry...







:_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
I didn't confuse that. It was JustJamie who answered the question why the kids couldn't go with mom and I re-posted it as it seems you missed it. JustJamie isn't the OP but she knows about deployment to Korea and was able to clear up why the kids aren't going with mom, aside from the extravagant expense for a military family with a family member in school..

_not to my satisfaction she wasn't able to clear it up, i wanted the ops answer...._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
I did get your post and you seem to be assuming this mom isn't there for her kids or there EXTRA. You wrote you think they need their mom more now and I'm just arguing the idea that she isn't there more for them now. And even if she isn't every day all day neither are any of us. If we're honest none of us are there 100% for our kid
..s all the time but we love them and care for them as best as we can at the time. And there's nothing wrong with that. It wasn't just your post either, but the ones earlier saying the kids don't need to be in care and that it's heartbreaking etc. Yours was just another one showing very little support for what is, I'm sure, a very tough situation for this woman and her family and one I'm glad I have the luxury to not be in..

_actually i'm not showing this woman ANYTHING b/c i haven't talked to her and i'm pretty sure i never will...i showed THE WOMAN WHO POSTED support b/c she sure wasn't getting much on this thread...she said she was venting so i would think that people could be nicer. but who am i kidding mdc is a snark fest these days







: ...never said the mom wasn't there for her kids, but she is going to be gone alot soon....kids in daycare all day, going to see someone for 4days before being w/the GP's for two weeks...yeah my kid wouldn't be away from me for that long...but like i said i gave my OPINION, i know it's different from many on this thread but i'm curious why you two are picking apart my opinion?_ _by all means you can continue this picking apart but it isn't going to change...







_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
She is spending EXTRA time with her babes. She's spending a great more deal unsupported time than most parents. She's parenting all on her own while missing her spouse and doing everything else that needs doing (school, house, business etc). My guess is she's taking on way more than I am and my son's with me every day all day. But I get the option of going out for a walk when BF gets home, or seeing a movie with friends, or having a bath uninterrupted or just sitting down and letting BF do the bedtime stuff or read to DS. I also have the luxury of knowing how BF is doing simply by looking in his eyes when he walks through the door.


_well yeah this your opinion of how a family should be(please notice how i'm not picking yours apart)







mine is the kid (s) are with mom 99.9% of the day(dad can join in at anytime)...that's just how i roll and all... or atleast my ds he just wants momma 99.9% of the time...







_

_eta* i don't know if this is going to sound rude but it's not ment to be*_


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## tessandturtle (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JustJamie* 
Would you prefer she take these two kids with her to Korea? (international travel involves ALL kinds of fun stuff - passports for both kids, both kids would be required to have ticketed seats, so that just tripled the cost of the flight, not to mention the stress of 2 small kids on a flight that long by herself...)

IMO, I don't see what she's doing is wrong or bad, and my heart is NOT breaking for her kids. They get to spend 3 fun weeks with Grandma and Grandpa!!!

To be honest, if my husband were sent to Korea for a year, I'd be leaving my kids with their grandparents so I could visit him, too.

It sounds to me like you have no concept of what it's really like to have your spouse deployed for a year, and left to manage 2 kids on your own. You don't feel comfortable with married couples, cause your partner isn't with you, and you're not welcome amongst single parents because you have the audacity to still be married...never mind that you have this constant nagging fear in the back of your mind that you may never see your spouse alive again, and how would you explain to your kids that their mommy/daddy is never coming home?

IMO, if you're sad about your niece/nephew staying with their grandparents for 3 weeks, offer to watch them for a week - or just butt out.

ETA: Korea is not an official combat zone, but it is considered a hardship/dangerous tour, which is why families aren't allowed to accompany their soldiers there. Not "officially" a war zone, but close enough that I don't want my kids near a military base there.









:

Deployments are _really_ hard on marriages, even good ones. If two weeks together is what they need to make it work (and the kids are staying with family who love them, not a kennel







), then good for them.
Also, military salaries don't really provide the extra cash to take a family of three on an overseas vacation.


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## Pastrydemon (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 

Neither times were myself or BF neglecting to be parents. And when he decided to add DS to our lives it wasn't to drop everything and be M-O-M-M-Y and D-A-D-D-Y and in fact as the mother of a son it's even more important to me that DS not see me as someone who put her whole life on hold to parent him, without accepting help from family, friends and community, and to the detriment of myself and exclusion of my needs. Too many men in our culture have been raised to believe it is a woman's job to put his needs first and I don't feel the need to perpetuate that. That's not healthy or balanced. But living consensually is really important to us and that means we all work together to make sure we're all getting what we need.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Well, I guess we know why the village isn't helping us to raise our kids when people get worked up over children staying for a few weeks with extended family.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_what about those of use who don't want/need the village? not to be rude but my village stinks and i would rather they not be involved! it's not a bad statement for those who want/need/like the village, but for the ones who don't we need a disclaimer*_


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_what about those of use who don't want/need the village? not to be rude but my village stinks and i would rather they not be involved! it's not a bad statement for those who want/need/like the village, but for the ones who don't we need a disclaimer*_









And those who DO need the support of the village - including extended FAMILY shouldn't be critised for using it.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think its really important to look at the alternatives when judging someone else's decisions. For example, regarding all day in daycare when only 1/2 day is really "needed" according to the OP. Is the mom able to parent effectively and well for the other half of the day? Would the kids be hit or ignored or spend the afternoon watching inappropriate TV? Not everyone is cut out to be 24/7 moms. I work, largely so that I get a break from the kids for part of the day. Without this (and I recently tried a whole year as a SAHM) I become a screaming witch mom by mid-afternoon. So my kids are infinitely better at preschool, in all honesty, than they are with me.

The same for the trip to Korea. Better to leave the children or take them? That's an individual decision -- I would be very uncomfortable taking my children on such a trip, even without looking at the impact that much less adult to adult time might have on the marriage.

I always like to assume that the parents are doing the best they can to make good decisions for their family in their specific situation. If they are people who are close to me and I can see alternatives that they might not have noticed, I will sometimes voice those observations. And there are, of course, inexcusable decisions. But these don't seem that way to me so, absent other information, I'd be inclined to say that they are good people doing the best they can.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm with those who don't see an "OMG those poor babies" in this situation at all. My DP is a licensed massage therapist, and cultivating a clientele base is indeed a very important part of getting a new practice up and going.

And quite frankly, when I was a single mama to my DD, there have been a couple of different times when she only "needed" to be in dc for half a day, but I left her there for the whole day. When I was dancing, for example, and my income depended on my appearance, I left her in dc so I could tan and get manicures and get my hair done and work out at the gym. On the surface, seems ridiculously selfish, and trust me, my time to get those things done never went unappreciated. I _loved_ being able to spoil myself a little - but it truly was a business expense - and I had plenty of guilt to go along with it that I was leaving DD in dc during that time.

More recently, I worked from 6a until 230p. DP gets off work at 5. DD's naptime at DC is until 330 - am I supposed to go WAKE her UP from naptime to bring her home after I get off work? And then after their naptime is her FAVORITE TIME of the whole day - outside play. She'd pitch a fit (and has, the few times I've done it) if I picked her up early.

My other personal beef with the OP is the idea that leaving your kids for such a length of time as 3 WEEKS!!! is a horrible horrible offense. My DD had just turned 3 when I went to Canada for over a month. She stayed with her grandparents, and I checked myself into rehab.

Was it the best thing for our family? Yes, by far. I hope there aren't people out there judging me for that choice, but I'm sure there are.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I'm one of the few who thinks that's sad, too. For an 18 MONTH old, mom leaving for 3 weeks is, I imagine, pretty traumatic. I have a baby the same age and I left him overnight once and he was obviously traumatized by it, and very clingy/untrusting of us for a while after that. And he's extremely verbal for his age. Sure, for my 4.5 yr. old, a 3 week trip to grandma's MIGHT be tons of fun (I'm not going to try) but for an 18 mo. old, it's the end of the world and I feel it could cause longterm attachment problems.
About the daycare, I'm not one to criticize parents who need it, but I don't understand choosing full-time daycare so you don't have to take the kids to the grocery store.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
I'm one of the few who thinks that's sad, too. For an 18 MONTH old, mom leaving for 3 weeks is, I imagine, pretty traumatic. I have a baby the same age and I left him overnight once and he was obviously traumatized by it, and very clingy/untrusting of us for a while after that. And he's extremely verbal for his age. Sure, for my 4.5 yr. old, a 3 week trip to grandma's MIGHT be tons of fun (I'm not going to try) but for an 18 mo. old, it's the end of the world and I feel it could cause longterm attachment problems.
About the daycare, I'm not one to criticize parents who need it, but I don't understand choosing full-time daycare so you don't have to take the kids to the grocery store.

My kids had no problem whatsoever with overnights at 18 months. They weren't traumatized at all, just had a ball with their cousins. It didn't cause any attachment problems either. I guess every child is different, and who better than the mother to know how her own child will react?


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama*
About the daycare, I'm not one to criticize parents who need it, but I don't understand choosing full-time daycare so you don't have to take the kids to the grocery store.


But you have a loving partner to trade off with if need be. Is there never a time you feel the need to be out by yourself to just get something done? Ever a need for some time to just breathe? My guess if you ever have those times your partner takes care of the kids. The OP's sister doesn't have that and on top of that she's most likely missing and worrying about her partner. DS is with me all day (we unschool too) but I'm not sure I'd make it if I was facing a year without time by myself to run errands after I'd completed my own schooling and tried to find some clients.


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## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Wow, the level of judgment being laid against the OP's sister, including by the OP, makes me sad.







: God forbid any of you should ever be in her position, separated from her DH, wondering if she'll even see him alive again, raising her kids on her own while her DH is in the military serving his country, doing her best as far as I can tell to hold her family and her marriage together.


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## paulaf (Jul 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
My kids had no problem whatsoever with overnights at 18 months. They weren't traumatized at all, just had a ball with their cousins. It didn't cause any attachment problems either. I guess every child is different, and who better than the mother to know how her own child will react?

My DD had no problem with overnights at 18 months either. She also had a great time with her aunt and 3 cousins, all of whom she adores. We had no attachment issues either. We have not yet left 2 year old DS overnight, but that is not because he could not handle it. I actually think he would get a big kick out of going to grandma's house for a night w/o mom and dad. However, he is a rambunctious kid and it has never seemed fair to the grandparents or aunt to expect them to chase after him, so we have not yet asked.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Well, I guess we know why the village isn't helping us to raise our kids when people get worked up over children staying for a few weeks with extended family.









:


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Joseph* 
I saw in another post that you are struggling with PPD. Perhaps you are jealous that your sister gets "a break" for 3 weeks that you are not getting?

That's a good point.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaydee* 
OP, I'm curious...what help have you offered her during this difficult time?

BINGO!


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

You know, I can see the OP's point. I would have trouble leaving my kids for 3 weeks too. But upon reading all these responses, I can see that this probably was a difficult choice for her sister to make. And hopefully the OP will see that too.

I also have done the whole "How can she have her kids in daycare that long?" thing. But I have realized I *am* a little envious sometimes of those mothers who have someone to watch the kids while they go to the store, get their hair cut, etc. So I just try not to judge. I'm not always successful, but I try.

Our grocery store here has free babysitting while you shop. Maybe I'm being selfish by dropping my kids off there while I get a cup of coffee and wander aimlessly around the store for about 30 min longer than I need to.







I guess I'm depriving them of the "grocery shopping with mom" experience. Oh well, I think they'll live!


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindberg99* 
Our grocery store here has free babysitting while you shop. Maybe I'm being selfish by dropping my kids off there while I get a cup of coffee and wander aimlessly around the store for about 30 min longer than I need to.









Sounds good to me! Contrary to others, I don't like taking DS grocery shopping with me. It's a horrible experience for both of us.

He prefers to stay home with DH and play with his cars,trains and trucks.

That's meeting *his* needs.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Azuralea*
> ...


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

annabanana said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> frankly, i am more shocked by the level of judgement laid against the OP. she came here to vent her frustration and helplessness. maybe there is more to the issue, maybe not, but she clearly stated she needed to rant. the OP's sister's difficult situation aside, the OP is frustrated that children so young are being left without their mother for 3 weeks. and these are the children who are already traumatised by their father being away, and by the new daycare.
> ...


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

I'll chime in with "Those poor babies!"

I'll also chime in with "That poor mother!"

Another chime: "That poor father!"

Say it with me--"That poor family!"

The OP says her sis and bil are acting immature and not like mommies and daddies. Daddy is in the military, deployed to a hostile place, supporting his family financially. Mom is working PT, going to school (to better her family, I'd guess), raising her children and running the house while her husband is away fro 12 months....Hmmm...

That sounds pretty mature and responsible to me!

Goody for those of you who don't need the villiage. You truly are lucky. Not everyone has this privilege. Yes, I'm sure it's traumatic for both children to be away from their mother for so long. But we don't know her situation. Could their marriage be seriously stressed and this could be the saving grace? (Divorce can be pretty traumatic as well). She's not going to Hawaii for some R&R, she's going to Korea to see her dh!

And as many other's have said--the kids will be with family for crying out loud. Family! How many cultures, how many generations have left their children with family while they...went hunting...went out to sea...went to a new territory to set up a home...went to a new country to start a life?

I'm curious about those of you have said "Those poor babies!" and judged this mother--how many of you are SINGLE MOTHERS? Or do many of you have a DP/DH coming home most nights/weekends to lighten the load-maybe run some errands, maybe rub your back a little, play with the kids while you do the dishes or nap? To offer some socialization, some sex, some love, some support, some sanity? Think about that, and how lucky you are, before you decide how bad or good a mother this woman is.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 

I'm curious about those of you have said "Those poor babies!" and judged this mother--how many of you are SINGLE MOTHERS? Or do many of you have a DP/DH coming home most nights/weekends to lighten the load-maybe run some errands, maybe rub your back a little, play with the kids while you do the dishes or nap? To offer some socialization, some sex, some love, some support, some sanity? Think about that, and how lucky you are, before you decide how bad or good a mother this woman is.

Well said!

DH is going to go away to lead a summer camp for 2 weeks next Saturday.
It is so hard... I am not looking forward to it. And then I remind myself of how lucky I am: it is only two weeks in a whole year!

I can't imagine what it is like to be a single mom, or a mom whose husband is deployed for months and months!! Women like that have my full admiration and I am in awe of their strength.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 

I'm curious about those of you have said "Those poor babies!" and judged this mother--how many of you are SINGLE MOTHERS? Or do many of you have a DP/DH coming home most nights/weekends to lighten the load-maybe run some errands, maybe rub your back a little, play with the kids while you do the dishes or nap? To offer some socialization, some sex, some love, some support, some sanity? Think about that, and how lucky you are, before you decide how bad or good a mother this woman is.

i'm not a single mother, i do have a DH, but i have lived years with him coming home after midnight, way after we could stay up, and leaving before we woke up. i do know what it means to be on my own--actually with no family to support me. i'm sure there are single mothers or mothers in my situation, who wouldn't even think about leaving their toddlers for 3 weeks.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 
Goody for those of you who don't need the villiage. You truly are lucky. Not everyone has this privilege.

how many of you are SINGLE MOTHERS? Or do many of you have a DP/DH coming home most nights/weekends to lighten the load-maybe run some errands, maybe rub your back a little, play with the kids while you do the dishes or nap? To offer some socialization, some sex, some love, some support, some sanity? Think about that, and how lucky you are, before you decide how bad or good a mother this woman is.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I feel bad for this family.. Really, daddy is gone for a year, mommy is trying to get a career going - one that will be very lucrative and has awesome potential for setting her own hours to suit the needs of her family, both are trying to do their jobs and care for their kids as they see the best way to do so.

I left my 14 month old son for nearly 3 weeks. He was home with daddy and siblings. I went home to bury my grandmother. Guess what, everyone was just fine.

My sister is in the Marines, stationed in Japan and pregnant with her first child. She goes to Korea (or did) quite often with her unit. As does her babies father. She is already looking at having to leave her baby either in Japan when she ships out to Korea or Iraq, or home to other family members for a hell of a lot longer than three weeks. Does that make her a bad mom?

Her pregnancy was not planned. She was told she was infertile. Terminating to TTC again after getting out of the military is not an option. She's planning to be a lifer and her pregnancy was a 1 in a million miracle.

It's very easy to sit back and judge another by how we would live our lives. But we aren't them. We don't have the intimate knowledge of their lives - no matter how close we are.

Support your SIL. In doing so, you are supporting your brother. I'm pretty sure your brother would rip you a new one if he could see your post here and the harsh judgment and mean words you wrote about his wife, the mother of his kids and the woman he loves.

The kids will be fine, your SIL and brother will be able to reconnect and hopefully not end up a statistic for miltary divorce.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I am a single mama. I would not leave my young child for three weeks.

I think it is wrong.

I do have room in my mind though for the whole, maybe different children have different needs. Maybe this child is different from mine in a way I cannot understand.

For my child, it would be emotional devastation, for me to leave her for three weeks.







I could not imagine doing such a thing to her.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 
I'm curious about those of you have said "Those poor babies!" and judged this mother--how many of you are SINGLE MOTHERS? Or do many of you have a DP/DH coming home most nights/weekends to lighten the load-maybe run some errands, maybe rub your back a little, play with the kids while you do the dishes or nap? To offer some socialization, some sex, some love, some support, some sanity? Think about that, and how lucky you are, before you decide how bad or good a mother this woman is.


_i'm sorry but i don't recall ANYONE judging this mother...many have stated their opinions that THEY WOULDN'T LEAVE THEIR DC... no one is deciding how good or bad this mother is... (*if anyone has, i haven't seen it please feel free to correct me if i am wrong, as i am sure no one really needed me to say that)_

_frankly i'm sick of these assumptions that just b/c some of us said we wouldn't leave our dc it automatically means we think people who do leave their kids are bad mothers!_

_i keep getting the feeling like pp's who do leave their dc have like a chip on their shoulders or something, i don't say that to be mean and i may be off but there it is... i know some people do have to put kids in day care and leave them (i can only imagine how hard that must be) but for those of us who don't try to be a little bit more respectful._

_ftr my dp back is super messed up, his WHOLE spine is curved, every vertebra in his back is messed up somehow..._
_so as far as him working (nope he can't and he is working on getting disability) house work is out of the question for him and the baby is left to me 99.9% of the time...i don't complain but i can't expect his help either, my poor dp is 22 and for the rest of his life he will be disabled...that's a pretty hard boat to be in but WE MAKE IT WORK! even if dp's back was fine and life was all "rosey" for us i STILL WOULDN'T WANT TO LEAVE MY DC EVER!_


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah I think we are judging. How can we say we are not? I see this a lot, "Oh that is bad very bad, I would never do it! But I'm not *judging*, oh noes!!"

Yes we are judging.


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## SativaStarr (Jul 16, 2007)

While leaving your child(ren) for 3 weeks might seem like a long time, and maybe is something youd "Never do", please watch what you say about this mother. I think its incredibly unfair for so many to jump to conclusions and "feel sorry" for these kids, when you dont know the entire situation, and you havent been in this Mama's shoes.

That said, I havent left my kids for 3 weeks, but I have had to be separated from DS (11 mo at the time) for more than a week while I was hospitalized with PTL and during DDs birth, since she was a preemie and I had to be at a hospital 1 1/2 hrs from home. Was it hard? Yes, I missed my son (and DH) terribly, they were ok and stayed with MIL. So I guess this makes me a "HORRIBLE Mama" since I left my baby for over a week? I dont choose to leave my children, but I would never judge a mama who does.

Take the 5 yr old I have gaurdian of ATM.. she will be with me for 4-5 months.. Does that make her Mama a bad mama?? NO! It certainly does not. Her mama is a hard-working single mama who has done her best for her daughter, and ATM is in training (Shes in the National Gaurds). She has no family to help her out, and her daughter's father is as good as useless. She has a bit of a record (misdemeanor battery) and has struggled to even find a crappy low-wage job. She decided to join the military to
A) Gain some direction in her life and skills that can help her with a career.
B) So she can go back to school (Gaurds will pay 100%)
C) To hopefully "redeem herself" so employees will see beyond her record.
Her daughter understands what is going on and why mama is gone.. she is also happy with her current placement (with us) and feels at home here. I have helped this mama out from the time her daughter was a newborn, and Ive watched her struggle as a young, single mama and see how sometimes a mama needs a break and someone to step in and help. From the time this little girl was a baby I have taken care of her for anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks to give her mama a much needed break. I also had her for 2 months while her mama served a jail sentence for the above mentioned conviction. My point in sharing this story is to say that every mama is different, every situation is different, and PLEASE dont judge another mama when you havent been in their shoes. What works for you may very well NOT work for another mama.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

annabanana said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> frankly, i am more shocked by the level of judgement laid against the OP. she came here to vent her frustration and helplessness. maybe there is more to the issue, maybe not, but she clearly stated she needed to rant. the OP's sister's difficult situation aside, the OP is frustrated that children so young are being left without their mother for 3 weeks. and these are the children who are already traumatised by their father being away, and by the new daycare.
> ...


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_please someone ANYONE i want to see quotes where people in this thread have called this mom...BAD, HORRIBLE, etc. i'm missing it, people keep posting it but i'm missing it! oh and where are the judgements please quote those too...i must be really dense b/c i'm missing all the "she is a bad mom" stuff, all i've seen is how people are being rude to the people posting about how they wouldn't leave their dc..._


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Unless the OP is stepping up to offer childcare and other help, it's not actually any of her business.

_i seriously doubt the op is comming back to this thread..._


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_please someone ANYONE i want to see quotes where people in this thread have called this mom...BAD, HORRIBLE, etc. i'm missing it, people keep posting it but i'm missing it! oh and where are the judgements please quote those too...i must be really dense b/c i'm missing all the "she is a bad mom" stuff, all i've seen is how people are being rude to the people posting about how they wouldn't leave their dc..._

Judgments about people's character are only ONE type of judgment.

Saying it is not good for children's emotional health to have such a long separation at a young age is also a judgment.


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A Boy's Mama* 
...The situation you describe just doesn't really sound like the end of the world to me.









:

Our son has been going away every summer to visit various relatives including two sets of grandparents for 2-3 weeks since he was two. No big deal.


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## mom2talus (Mar 23, 2007)

People aren't saying the mother is BAD, but there has been talk about "damage" to kids who are left with relatives. Where is the proof of this "damage"? Are there any studies that show leaving a child with a loving, known, trusted caregiver causes "damage"?

I leave my DS with my ILs for a week every year so DH and I can go to Burning Man. We also leave him there for weekends pretty regularly. Does that make me a bad parent? Does it mean I love my DS less than other parents who won't let their DC out of their sight? If you ask me, not at all. It's hard to leave him, especially when we are going somewhere with no cell phone signals, but he gets undivided attention from grandparents he loves. And DH and I have a wonderful time together, coming back ready to take the parent AND partner roles back on.

These children will be fine!


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

annabanana said:


> Quote:
> 
> i do believe her sister is being immature. yes, it is difficult to be away from your partner, but she is a military wife, and she knew what she was going to face. as an adult she can work on her relationship with dh over the emails and phonecalls, and can delay gratification of seeing him. her 18 months old child doesn't have this benefit. even if he is left with loving grandparents, it is not the same as having his mommy when needed. i think going away for 3 weeks is excrutiatinly long, unfair to the children, and ultimately an immature, selfish decision.
> 
> ...


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I admit I wouldn't have been comfortable leaving MY kids with my parents or ILs at that age but my situation is different.

It's a bit long but I don't see the children being left with what I assume are loving grandparents as a terrible thing. It sounds like it was the best solution for their family.

I also don't see the full-time daycare as an issue. It may work better with the mother in question's work situation.

I did chose to be a SAHM and yes, I do take my kids grocery shopping







and yes I do believe it's a good thing but I don't judge others for making different arrangements.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2talus* 
People aren't saying the mother is BAD, but there has been talk about "damage" to kids who are left with relatives. Where is the proof of this "damage"? Are there any studies that show leaving a child with a loving, known, trusted caregiver causes "damage"?

I don't know about the impact of a loving trusted caregiver. However here is some information from attachment research about separation:

http://www.personalityresearch.org/attachment.html

Quote:

When a human or non-human primate infant is separated from its parent, the infant goes through a series of three stages of emotional reactions. First is protest, in which the infant cries and refuses to be consoled by others. Second is despair, in which the infant is sad and passive. Third is detachment, in which the infant actively disregards and avoids the parent if the parent returns (Hazan & Shaver, 1987).
http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~rcfraley/attachment.htm

Quote:

Drawing on ethological theory, Bowlby postulated that these attachment behaviors, such as crying and searching, were adaptive responses to separation from with a primary attachment figure--someone who provides support, protection, and care.

[snip]

According to Bowlby, the attachment system essentially "asks" the following fundamental question: Is the attachment figure nearby, accessible, and attentive? If the child perceives the answer to this question to be "yes," he or she feels loved, secure, and confident, and, behaviorally, is likely to explore his or her environment, play with others, and be sociable. If, however, the child perceives the answer to this question to be "no," the child experiences anxiety and, behaviorally, is likely to exhibit attachment behaviors ranging from simple visual searching on the low extreme to active following and vocal signaling on the other (see Figure 1). These behaviors continue until either the child is able to reestablish a desirable level of physical or psychological proximity to the attachment figure, or until the child "wears down," as may happen in the context of a prolonged separation or loss. In such cases or helplessness, Bowlby believed the child experiences despair and depression.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

"Primary attachment figure" refers to the person with whom the child has a close bond. It does not mean just *anyone* who fills caretaking duties for a given time.

In most cases the primary attachment figure is the mother.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

These kids are not infants. They are both at an age where, if they are securely attached, many children cope fine with temporary separations. They have acheived some measure of object permance - they know their mother still exists when she is not present.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

3 years old and 18 months old are not at the age where they can cope well with a 3 week separation IMO. Too young, too long. One or IMO both should really still be at mama's breast.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Okay I read this carefully and have some thoughts.

Although under normal circumstances I do feel that it's too long to leave children that young, these are not normal circumstances. Perhaps she really wants to visit her dh (who is also important in her life, just like her kids) and can't afford to take the kids with her or is not allowed to because of military restrictions. She probably really, really misses her dh.

Secondly, if the kids have a really close relationship with the grandparents it might be okay for them. There are a lot of kids who see grandparents almost like a second set of parents, feel safe with them and would be okay. Other kids may not be so okay with that arrangement. I would take this on a case by case basis and I don't know all the circumstances of their bond.

Having been to India with two kids I can tell you that travelling with two small children is not easy at all. I would avoid this if at all possible and maybe that's what your sister is doing. Especially if she's flying alone it would be very stressful for the kids and for her. It might be more humane for the kids to stay with people they know in a calm, familar enviroment (especially if the little boy is that sensitive to change). My second dd is very sensitive also and had a hard time in India even though I and dh were with her at all times. She was just out of sorts and very homesick.

Lastly, your sister is not you. But she is still your sister. She's not abusing them. She's probably doing the best she can under the circumstances based on what she knows right now. She's very young, probably stressed out caring for two young children without her dh there, and she's probably missing him desperately. I'm glad she has the support of a set of grandparents to step in so they are in a safe and loving environment.

I'm not sure that I would do what she's doing, but we are all different people and I can't begin to imagine what it's like in her shoes.When my IL's offered to watch our girls while we went on a weekend escape while in India, I politely declined the offer because at 6 and 3 I still feel they are too young to be apart from us that long. Especally my 3yo.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

annabanana said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> i do believe her sister is being immature. yes, it is difficult to be away from your partner, but she is a military wife, and she knew what she was going to face. as an adult she can work on her relationship with dh over the emails and phonecalls, and can delay gratification of seeing him. her 18 months old child doesn't have this benefit. even if he is left with loving grandparents, it is not the same as having his mommy when needed. i think going away for 3 weeks is excrutiatinly long, unfair to the children, and ultimately an immature, selfish decision.
> ...


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## mom2talus (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
3 years old and 18 months old are not at the age where they can cope well with a 3 week separation IMO. Too young, too long. One or IMO both should really still be at mama's breast.

They are *NOT* infants, so your research quote is not applicable.

Why do you say they are unable to cope with a separation? Because you feel that way? That's not a valid reason for anyone but you.

And clearly these children are no longer breastfed, so the above is almost silly to say. Because YOU think they should still be breastfed, their parents shouldn't see each other?


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana* 
i'm not a single mother, i do have a DH, but i have lived years with him coming home after midnight, way after we could stay up, and leaving before we woke up. i do know what it means to be on my own--actually with no family to support me.

I'm sorry, but that's not the same as being a single mother (or a temp. single mother like the woman in question in the OP). You at least had someone there for you at night. You knew that if something happened to you--car accident, slip/fall, etc, your children's father would be there to care for his children. Even if his midnight-early am job was 7 days a week (which I'm thinking it's not...could be wrong), it is nowhere near the same thing. You could have stayed up till midnight some nights or set your alarm with his some mornings to see him/talk to him, squeeze in some intamacy with him. So not the same thing.

*thismama*-thank you for being honest. Yes, many of you are judging this woman for her actions. (I've judged people before--we all do. This includes message boards and IRL)

FTR, I'm not saying this won't be hard on the children. I'm not saying I would do the same thing (who knows--I'm not married and the man I love isn't thousands of miles away for a year. I have no idea what I'd do, what my realistic options would be, how I'd feel, etc. And really, neither do most of you). I'm saying that a) I don't know enough about this situation to come to a conclusion about this woman's parenting skills, selfishness, etc b) That by default, I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt to make decisions that best suit her family.

As for the OP not returning to this thread, that would be her own choice. She's a big girl, and if some of the members on an internet board disagreeing with her upsets her that much, maybe it's better that she distance herself. She made a very opinionated statement, and should rightfully expect very opinionated responses to that statement.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2talus* 
They are *NOT* infants, so your research quote is not applicable.

Why do you say they are unable to cope with a separation? Because you feel that way? That's not a valid reason for anyone but you.

And clearly these children are no longer breastfed, so the above is almost silly to say. Because YOU think they should still be breastfed, their parents shouldn't see each other?


Yeah, because babies go from not withstanding separation well to being fine with mama being gone for three weeks in the timespan of... oh yeah, 18 months.

Okee-dokey. I'm not going to go digging for research to prove that wrong. It's just common sense to me.


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## mom2talus (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Yeah, because babies go from not withstanding separation well to being fine with mama being gone for three weeks in the timespan of... oh yeah, 18 months.

Okee-dokey. I'm not going to go digging for research to prove that wrong. It's just common sense to me.









I'm tempted to just let this stand on its own. But maybe I have to point out that your "common sense" != fact.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Judgments about people's character are only ONE type of judgment.

Saying it is not good for children's emotional health to have such a long separation at a young age is also a judgment.


_good point...i've never thought of it this way...i've just always had the "belief" if you will that young child should be with momma..._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2talus* 
*People aren't saying the mother is BAD*, but there has been talk about "damage" to kids who are left with relatives. Where is the proof of this "damage"? Are there any studies that show leaving a child with a loving, known, trusted caregiver causes "damage"?

I leave my DS with my ILs for a week every year so DH and I can go to Burning Man. We also leave him there for weekends pretty regularly. *Does that make me a bad parent? Does it mean I love my DS less than other parents who won't let their DC out of their sight?* If you ask me, not at all. It's hard to leave him, especially when we are going somewhere with no cell phone signals, but he gets undivided attention from grandparents he loves. And DH and I have a wonderful time together, coming back ready to take the parent AND partner roles back on.

These children will be fine!

_please inform PP's of this...







i'm sure the children will be "fine" but no one knows that 100%...i'm pretty sure no one has implied that leaving a child makes them a bad mother...some people have stated that *they* were not comfortable leaving their dc and it seems like people have taken that as a declaration of mommy wars!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't know about the impact of a loving trusted caregiver. However here is some information from attachment research about separation:

http://www.personalityresearch.org/attachment.html

http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~rcfraley/attachment.htm

_that was a really good study...thanks for posting the link!_


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## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Regarding the studies: I don't think MDC permits criticism of attachment theory studies, so I will just state that there are a tremendous number of valid criticisms of Bowlby, Hazan, and Ainsworth's work out there, particularly concerning their methodology and conclusions. (Mary Ainsworth brought Bowlby's work to the US from the UK.) Personally I would be reluctant to base any parenting decisions at all on their studies.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I can't see a single thing to critisize about this mother's choices, not that its anyone's business to critisize in the first place.

What she said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
Some daycares are quite good, and some children thrive in it, regardless of what some of us like to think. (I say this as a SAHM, btw, and my DD's never been in day care, so I'm not pushing an agenda). From what you've said it sounds like she's got her head on her shoulders, and is doing everything "right".

I was a SAHM for a decade. Went back to work a year ago (4 hours per day at the elementary where dd1 and dd2 go - see them all my working hours) and put dd3 (four now but three when this started) in an in-home daycare that a friend runs. I can absolutely guarantee you that she was loved and taken care of and played with and taken to the park and played with dccp's dog and napped if she needed and hugged and played with. I had previously been fairly judgmental of moms who put their kids in daycare. I just didn't realize that many are good, and it can actually be a positive experience for many families.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_what about those of use who don't want/need the village?
_
_
_
_
My answer to that would be that you might not want/need the village - but I would argue that your children absolutely do. I think being your child's everything - no one else can help them or put them to bed or be a trusted, loving influence - puts the child in a very vulnerable position. I want my kids to feel safe and loved by a variety of people, not just me and their dad.

My parents died when I was in junior high. I got through with the help of many teachers, friends' parents, family friends. My younger siblings were shy and so young that they didn't have that support network; it was much, much harder for them.

If your village "stinks" - which I actually understand because some of my extended biological family does too - you find a new village. My kids have "aunts" and "uncles", even a Grammy and Gramps who have absolutely no biological link to us at all. They are the family we chose. And if you live in an area where you don't have any IRL friends to support you and be a part of your kids' lives, I'd look at moving to a place where you can have that. Because it is crucially important IMO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
Contrary to others, I don't like taking DS grocery shopping with me. It's a horrible experience for both of us.

Same here!! Just did it today (dp is out of the country for 10 weeks this summer so I actually know a bit of what the OP's sister might feel like) and it is not fun for any of us. My dd1(almost 11) and sometimes dd2(almost 7) enjoy it IF they are well rested and full, but dd3(4) never enjoys it, and neither do I. Today we were rushed and hungry and it was less than pleasant for all of us. They'd have been much happier home with a sitter while I grocery shopped.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2talus* 
I leave my DS with my ILs for a week every year so DH and I can go to Burning Man. We also leave him there for weekends pretty regularly. Does that make me a bad parent? Does it mean I love my DS less than other parents who won't let their DC out of their sight?

I see this a lot on MDC. The moms who are with their kids 24/7 think they love their kids more than we do - the moms who (horrors) leave their kids so we can work or have a date with our dp or go to the gym or have some time for ourselves. You know what? I am proud of the example I'm setting for my girls! I don't want them to grow up and martyr themselves, lose themselves for 20 years. I want them to have a balanced life. Being a mom is very, very important - absolutely. And I can do that AND take a little time for myself. I think it is better for my kids and me.

I hope the OP decides to support her sister. Sounds like she is doing an amazing job for being 23 with two small kids and her dp overseas. Impressive IMO._


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 

*thismama*-thank you for being honest. Yes, many of you are judging this woman for her actions. (I've judged people before--we all do. This includes message boards and IRL)

Darn right. When I judge, I say I judge.

I don't think judgment is OMGZ horrible to be avoided at all costs!!!!!111

I think it is a tool to be applied wisely. A tool. A very useful tool.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_good point...i've never thought of it this way...i've just always had the "belief" if you will that young child should be with momma..._

Yep, me too.

Quote:

_that was a really good study...thanks for posting the link!_
No worries! I'm glad you enjoyed it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Regarding the studies: I don't think MDC permits criticism of attachment theory studies, so I will just state that there are a tremendous number of valid criticisms of Bowlby, Hazan, and Ainsworth's work out there, particularly concerning their methodology and conclusions. (Mary Ainsworth brought Bowlby's work to the US from the UK.) Personally I would be reluctant to base any parenting decisions at all on their studies.

Well, everything can be criticized. But I personally find Attachment Theory to be a nice validation of what I know in my gut to be true.


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## mom2talus (Mar 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Darn right. When I judge, I say I judge.

I don't think judgment is OMGZ horrible to be avoided at all costs!!!!!111

I think it is a tool to be applied wisely. A tool. A very useful tool.

Good. Then you won't mind my judging your using your "gut" over facts to make decisions.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2talus* 
Good. Then you won't mind my judging your using your "gut" over facts to make decisions.

I really don't care. Judge away.


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## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, everything can be criticized. But I personally find Attachment Theory to be a nice validation of what I know in my gut to be true.

That's fine for you personally. However, you were using the "studies" to posit that these kids _would_ be harmed by their mom's absence, which IMO is a strong enough statement that it requires some very, very solid evidence behind it if you're going to make it.

In other words, if you want to state they'll be harmed because you just feel that way, fine, but that's a lot different that saying that you know that those kids will definitely, or at least most likely, be harmed by a three-week separation, kids staying with grandparents. IMO that sort of opinion requires a lot stronger evidence than your own personal gut feeling.

You don't need studies to say "OMGZ that horrible mother!!1!!" If you think she's abandoning her kids and it will harm them, just come out and say it. Don't hide behind studies of questionable merit.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana* 
am i the only one to think that grocery shopping with a parent, being included and part of the family, is more valuable and a better confidence builder, than playing in an institutional setting? we have fun grocery shopping together! most of the time.

i would have to agree - little ones get tired and start missing their mummy, as much as they like playing with friends, full time is a long time.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2talus* 
They are *NOT* infants, so your research quote is not applicable.

Why do you say they are unable to cope with a separation? Because you feel that way? That's not a valid reason for anyone but you.

And clearly these children are no longer breastfed, so the above is almost silly to say. Because YOU think they should still be breastfed, their parents shouldn't see each other?

_i must be missing something here...you think it's ok for them to be away from mom for three weeks so that makes it ok? i'm just applying your logic...







_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
If your village "stinks" - which I actually understand because some of my extended biological family does too - you find a new village. My kids have "aunts" and "uncles", even a Grammy and Gramps who have absolutely no biological link to us at all. They are the family we chose. And if you live in an area where you don't have any IRL friends to support you and be a part of your kids' lives, I'd look at moving to a place where you can have that. Because it is crucially important IMO.

_i don't want a new village...that was my point, i dislike the saying "it takes a village" i should of made it more clear...my bad!_









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
I see this a lot on MDC. The moms who are with their kids 24/7 think they love their kids more than we do - the moms who (horrors) leave their kids so we can work or have a date with our dp or go to the gym or have some time for ourselves. You know what? I am proud of the example I'm setting for my girls! I don't want them to grow up and martyr themselves, lose themselves for 20 years. I want them to have a balanced life. Being a mom is very, very important - absolutely. And I can do that AND take a little time for myself. I think it is better for my kids and me.

_i'm begging this time please quote one person in this thread who has said "i'm better blah blah blah" i keep seeing people refering to it but no one is hitting "quote" i'm happy you spelled it out, i couldn't figure out why eveyone was getting their knickers in a twist....i must have missed those threads b/c i've never seen moms getting told they "don't love their kids as much" imo that is an awful thing to say..._


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
That's fine for you personally. However, you were using the "studies" to posit that these kids _would_ be harmed by their mom's absence, which IMO is a strong enough statement that it requires some very, very solid evidence behind it if you're going to make it.

In other words, if you want to state they'll be harmed because you just feel that way, fine, but that's a lot different that saying that you know that those kids will definitely, or at least most likely, be harmed by a three-week separation, kids staying with grandparents. IMO that sort of opinion requires a lot stronger evidence than your own personal gut feeling.

You don't need studies to say "OMGZ that horrible mother!!1!!" If you think she's abandoning her kids and it will harm them, just come out and say it. Don't hide behind studies of questionable merit.


_do you have solid evidence it WILL NOT hurt them? no snark i'm just curious..._


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_do you have solid evidence it WILL NOT hurt them? no snark i'm just curious..._

I'd like to know as well. First do no harm and alla that.

I think I've presented the most solid evidence of anyone on this thread. It pertains to infants, yes. There may be data also about young children, I just have not looked for it.

I know as a mother that a 3 year old is not too far from infancy in the grand scheme of things, and an 18 month old even less so. I think attachment theory as relates to infants is very relevant to the decision to leave such young children for 3 weeks.


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## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

:

Wondering how damaged I am since my grandparents took me with them on a two week vacation in the Caribbean when I was two...







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heket* 







:

Wondering how damaged I am since my grandparents took me with them on a two week vacation in the Caribbean when I was two...







:









I don't know, really. I mean, it happens all the time. I just can't fathom it, frankly. And I'm not an "OMGZ must martyr for the kiddies!!!!!" type.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

How about instead of stating that a child will be damaged, just saying it's not something that would work for your family?

Some people do it, kids turn out fine. Some people don't kids turn out fine.
I highly doubt that a three week period spent with grandparents or other loving family member will warp or harm a child.

I have family that leaves their kids for trips. Funny, my nieces and nephews are happy, well adjusted kids. As are my cousins.

For every belief that a child will be harmed are several who hold the belief that those who never leave their kids are harming them. Smothering them and making them incapable of functioning in the real world.

It's just as insulting to hear that blarney as it is to hear how you will damage your child if you leave them for any length of time.


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## gracesmommy (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
For every belief that a child will be harmed are several who hold the belief that those who never leave their kids are harming them. Smothering them and making them incapable of functioning in the real world.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
How about instead of stating that a child will be damaged, just saying it's not something that would work for your family?

maybe she learned from my mistake, i stated this in the thread already and it was shot down...read up and you'll see what i'm talking about


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## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I'd like to know as well. First do no harm and alla that.

I think I've presented the most solid evidence of anyone on this thread. It pertains to infants, yes. There may be data also about young children, I just have not looked for it.

I know as a mother that a 3 year old is not too far from infancy in the grand scheme of things, and an 18 month old even less so. I think attachment theory as relates to infants is very relevant to the decision to leave such young children for 3 weeks.

Oh for Pete's sake. The only reason that you're the only one presenting "evidence," and I use quotations because of the serious questions that surround those particular authors, is because you're the only one who is asserting that you know better than this mother as to what is right for her children, her family, and her marriage. Those of us who are saying that the OP should lay off and stop with the unnecessary judgment are saying that maybe, just maybe, this mama knows what's best for her and her kids. That doesn't need any corroborating studies.

I don't really have time to go through the entire literature of longitudinal studies examining the effects of parental presence /absence over the past forty years. For one thing, I'm at work right now and don't have access to my full collection of studies. But for another, while I could drag out the longitudinal studies (which you could probably find yourself on Google Scholar), I find the idea that a study which looked at the longitudinal effects of parental presence or absence having any remote bearing on the situation of the OP's sister utterly surreal. (And, FWIW, in the reputable studies the things that really seems to matter as far as child outcome? It's parental income and financial stability, for one thing, and parental interest and values. Those two trump pretty much most other things.) There's not going to be any study that looks at the effect of three weeks spent with grandparents on the part of a mom who appears to be doing her best, because it's an absurd premise to begin with.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
For every belief that a child will be harmed are several who hold the belief that those who never leave their kids are harming them. Smothering them and making them incapable of functioning in the real world.

And for every person who holds the belief that children should be comforted at night, there are several who hold the belief that CIO is just dandy.

So? I don't see your point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Oh for Pete's sake. The only reason that you're the only one presenting "evidence," and I use quotations because of the serious questions that surround those particular authors, is because you're the only one who is asserting that you know better than this mother as to what is right for her children, her family, and her marriage.

I hardly think I am the only one who thinks three weeks is too long to leave a toddler and a preschooler. At least, God I hope not.

This is MDC, right???







:

Quote:

Those of us who are saying that the OP should lay off and stop with the unnecessary judgment are saying that maybe, just maybe, this mama knows what's best for her and her kids. That doesn't need any corroborating studies.
Well you can make that argument for anything though. Circ, CIO, spanking.

I am simply offering my opinion, as you are offering yours. I think three weeks is too long, based on my experience of my own and other young children, and based on conclusions I draw from attachment research.

I see that it is a complex circumstance, and that the mother is making a choice in that context. I get it. I don't happen to agree that the choice will not bring harm to the young children.

YMMV.







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
How about instead of stating that a child will be damaged, just saying it's not something that would work for your family?

Because my opinion is bolder than "it would not work for my family." It extends to "I don't see how it could be a good thing for young children."


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

3 weeks? Yikes.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
3 weeks? Yikes.

I know.


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## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I hardly think I am the only one who thinks three weeks is too long to leave a toddler and a preschooler. At least, God I hope not.

This is MDC, right???







:

Being on MDC doesn't mean abandoning critical thinking. Nor does it mean relying on highly questionable research to automatically condemn another mother whose actions are only being described by a clearly very judgmental sister.

In any case, work is over for me and I'm off.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Being on MDC doesn't mean abandoning critical thinking. Nor does it mean relying on highly questionable research to automatically condemn another mother whose actions are only being described by a clearly very judgmental sister.

There is critical thinking, and then there is the oft-repeated "She is making the choice for her family!!!! Oh noes mustn't judge!!! All choices are the same choices." Etc.

That is what I expect to read on my local mainstream mamas board. Not here.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
There is critical thinking, and then there is the oft-repeated "She is making the choice for her family!!!! Oh noes mustn't judge!!! All choices are the same choices." Etc.

That is what I expect to read on my local mainstream mamas board. Not here.


_i know that is why i stay at mdc b/c it's a haven from answers like that!_


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_i know that is why i stay at mdc b/c it's a haven from answers like that!_

ITA. I mean, I'm not for the scathing, cutting mama judgment. It can go too far. But OTOH "all choices are the same" is taking things a bit too far in the other direction.

Children are impacted by parenting choices. This is reality. I don't care if you spoon feed or self feed - whatever floats yer boat. But leaving an 18 month old for three weeks is a different story IMNSHO.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Regarding the studies: I don't think MDC permits criticism of attachment theory studies, so I will just state that there are a tremendous number of valid criticisms of Bowlby, Hazan, and Ainsworth's work out there, particularly concerning their methodology and conclusions. (Mary Ainsworth brought Bowlby's work to the US from the UK.) Personally I would be reluctant to base any parenting decisions at all on their studies.


_didn't you already post that?_


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

_i'm begging this time please quote one person in this thread who has said "i'm better blah blah blah" i keep seeing people refering to it but no one is hitting "quote" i'm happy you spelled it out, i couldn't figure out why eveyone was getting their knickers in a twist....i must have missed those threads b/c i've never seen moms getting told they "don't love their kids as much" imo that is an awful thing to say..._[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I've ever seen "I love my kids more than you do because you use high school sitters and I don't." Or "I'm a better mom than you are because I've never been away from my kids for longer than five minutes and they are 14, 11 and 7."

It is inferred. Read between the lines and it is really very clear. There are people here who think they are better than I am because they homeschool and I don't. Or they EBF or cosleep or any number of other things. Moms who had c-sections are sometimes assumed not to have done their research by those of us who homebirth. Different opinions on discipline, circ, vax, on and on and on.

It is just human nature. We do what we think is best, and tend to look down on (in whatever subtle, nicely put way) others who didn't do that.

Saying "I would never" and "it would harm them" IS judging. We all judge.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
ITA. I mean, I'm not for the scathing, cutting mama judgment. It can go too far. But OTOH "all choices are the same" is taking things a bit too far in the other direction.

Children are impacted by parenting choices. This is reality. I don't care if you spoon feed or self feed - whatever floats yer boat. But leaving an 18 month old for three weeks is a different story IMNSHO.

And having parents divorce can also damage a child.

Thismama, I respect you very much so please don't take this as being b*tchy..

You are a single mama by choice if I am correct. Many would slam the very personal choice you made to build your family without a father for your child. They would argue that you damaged your child by not giving her an intact home with two parents.

But you made your choice with thought, not only for yourself and your desire to be a parent but also with what you had to offer a child. True? You trusted your beliefs, your strengths and the network you had in place to be the awesome mama you are.

Others would disagree saying you though only of yourself and your desire to parent.

I'm bringing this up because this other mama may believe she is making the best choice she can for herself and her family. Some may think she is harming her children. Some may think she is doing what she can to preserve all aspects of her family.

The bottomer line is, it is her choice. Just as you made your choice. There are studies to back up your feelings on what she is doing. There are studies to back up claims made by others that a single mother home without a father ever being present are harmful.

Yet the desire by all who make these various choices, for example you and this other mama all have one thing in common. The desire to be respected for knowing what is best for you and yours.

I thrived when I was on my trips with my grandma and away from my mother. Many here would say it was horrid that my grandma took me for long periods of time. Yet in my case, those trips and visits most likely saved my life. My mom was not loving, protective or concerned about me. She stayed with men who raped me. But not knowing all of that, one could just say my mom was horrid for dumping me and running here and there. She did me a favor.

So unilaterally stating that a child left by it's mother is damaging is highly inaccurate.

While you may believe that is not in your child's best interest or something you wouldn't do and voicing that is okay, stating that it is always wrong and harmful is not correct.

I believe it would be more damaging to the kids if mommy and daddy lost the love and connection they have and they ended up with divorced parents vs. a three week trip for mom to see dad.

Again, I respect your wisdom in so many areas. I know that 9 times out of 10 that when I see your name next to a post, I will agree with you, get a new perspective or even a good laugh because you do have a killer sense of humor.

I'm not trying to be mean... Just trying to illustrate that for all who believe one way, there are opposte beliefs that may be just as valid or even hurtful..


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
And having parents divorce can also damage a child.

Thismama, I respect you very much so please don't take this as being b*tchy..

You are a single mama by choice if I am correct. Many would slam the very personal choice you made to build your family without a father for your child. They would argue that you damaged your child by not giving her an intact home with two parents.

Sure they would. So? People can argue anything, doesn't make it right.

I argue the things I argue because I think they are right. I present my reasons and the process by which I have come to my conclusion to try to convince others that I am right. And I listen to other people's processes and conclusions to see if I can learn something.

I choose to be a single mother for many reasons, one being that I do not believe children need married parents to be happy. That is my opinion. As what I have said here is my opinion about separation and young children.

No more, no less.

Quote:

I'm bringing this up because this other mama may believe she is making the best choice she can for herself and her family. Some may think she is harming her children. Some may think she is doing what she can to preserve all aspects of her family.
And? So we discuss it.

Quote:

The bottomer line is, it is her choice. Just as you made your choice
Bottom line for me is that all choices are not equal.

Quote:

There are studies to back up your feelings on what she is doing. There are studies to back up claims made by others that a single mother home without a father ever being present are harmful.
Which would be entirely another conversation, and does not pertain to my situation because my child has a father who is very much present.

Irrelevant to this thread entirely.

Quote:

Yet the desire by all who make these various choices, for example you and this other mama all have one thing in common. The desire to be respected for knowing what is best for you and yours.
I don't think that anything any mother does is inherently from a place of knowing what is best for her and hers. Otherwise we would not see neglect and abuse, or the myriad of unfortunate parenting decisions that we do.

www.parentsbehavingbadly.com presents an extreme (and graphic!! warning) example of this fact.

Quote:

I thrived when I was on my trips with my grandma and away from my mother. Many here would say it was horrid that my grandma took me for long periods of time. Yet in my case, those trips and visits most likely saved my life. My mom was not loving, protective or concerned about me. She stayed with men who raped me. But not knowing all of that, one could just say my mom was horrid for dumping me and running here and there. She did me a favor.
Back on topic here, good. I'm sorry that happened to you. In the context of abuse, certainly being removed from the situation is the best thing. Of course.

However I maintain it is not ideal, in a non-abusive, non-desperate situation.

Quote:

So unilaterally stating that a child left by it's mother is damaging is highly inaccurate.
Well, with the qualifiers I outlined above I maintain that it is damaging for small children to have a prolonged absence from the primary attachment figure.

That is my opinion.

Quote:

While you may believe that is not in your child's best interest or something you wouldn't do and voicing that is okay, stating that it is always wrong and harmful is not correct.
I disagree.

Quote:

I believe it would be more damaging to the kids if mommy and daddy lost the love and connection they have and they ended up with divorced parents vs. a three week trip for mom to see dad.








Choices to be made. Personally I would take the kids. That is me.

Quote:

Again, I respect your wisdom in so many areas. I know that 9 times out of 10 that when I see your name next to a post, I will agree with you, get a new perspective or even a good laugh because you do have a killer sense of humor.
And here we differ. That is the way things go.

Quote:

I'm not trying to be mean... Just trying to illustrate that for all who believe one way, there are opposte beliefs that may be just as valid or even hurtful..
I get that. So what though? You think my beliefs are hurtful, I think yours are hurtful. So we discuss it. On a discussion board.

That is kind of the point.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
And having parents divorce can also damage a child.

Thismama, I respect you very much so please don't take this as being b*tchy..

You are a single mama by choice if I am correct. Many would slam the very personal choice you made to build your family without a father for your child. They would argue that you damaged your child by not giving her an intact home with two parents.

But you made your choice with thought, not only for yourself and your desire to be a parent but also with what you had to offer a child. True? You trusted your beliefs, your strengths and the network you had in place to be the awesome mama you are.

Others would disagree saying you though only of yourself and your desire to parent.

I'm bringing this up because this other mama may believe she is making the best choice she can for herself and her family. Some may think she is harming her children. Some may think she is doing what she can to preserve all aspects of her family.

The bottomer line is, it is her choice. Just as you made your choice. There are studies to back up your feelings on what she is doing. There are studies to back up claims made by others that a single mother home without a father ever being present are harmful.

Yet the desire by all who make these various choices, for example you and this other mama all have one thing in common. The desire to be respected for knowing what is best for you and yours.

I thrived when I was on my trips with my grandma and away from my mother. Many here would say it was horrid that my grandma took me for long periods of time. Yet in my case, those trips and visits most likely saved my life. My mom was not loving, protective or concerned about me. She stayed with men who raped me. But not knowing all of that, one could just say my mom was horrid for dumping me and running here and there. She did me a favor.

So unilaterally stating that a child left by it's mother is damaging is highly inaccurate.

While you may believe that is not in your child's best interest or something you wouldn't do and voicing that is okay, stating that it is always wrong and harmful is not correct.

I believe it would be more damaging to the kids if mommy and daddy lost the love and connection they have and they ended up with divorced parents vs. a three week trip for mom to see dad.

Again, I respect your wisdom in so many areas. I know that 9 times out of 10 that when I see your name next to a post, I will agree with you, get a new perspective or even a good laugh because you do have a killer sense of humor.

I'm not trying to be mean... Just trying to illustrate that for all who believe one way, there are opposte beliefs that may be just as valid or even hurtful..











ITA


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 









ITA

I don't get the clapping. I think there are some very basic errors of logic in the post you quoted.

Should I tell you that if you made the choice to be married when you had children, you should never pass any judgment on anything, ever?

Please. The logic does not hold up. We all make judgments, and we make life choices based on our judgments.

The sheer duh factor astounds.







:


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
ITA. I mean, I'm not for the scathing, cutting mama judgment. It can go too far. But OTOH "all choices are the same" is taking things a bit too far in the other direction.

Children are impacted by parenting choices. This is reality. I don't care if you spoon feed or self feed - whatever floats yer boat. But leaving an 18 month old for three weeks is a different story IMNSHO.

That is definitely true and if the mom was leaving for 3 weeks so she could go on a celebrity cruise, I would be with the OP. But no, she is going to visit her DH who is deployed in Korea _for a year_. Sometimes moms need to make choices that suck and IMO this is one of those times.

What struck me most about the OP was how she talked about how horrible her sister is for using daycare to run errands but she never once mentioned going over to help her out. Or helping her in some other way. Her sister has 2 small children, is starting a business to support her family and her husband is overseas. She needs family support right now.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
That is definitely true and if the mom was leaving for 3 weeks so she could go on a celebrity cruise, I would be with the OP. But no, she is going to visit her DH who is deployed in Korea _for a year_. Sometimes moms need to make choices that suck and IMO this is one of those times.

Yep, I agree.

It is not the choice I would make. But it's true that we are not speaking of a celebrity cruise.

I am not saying this mama is a horrible person etc etc on and on. I am saying I think leaving small children for three weeks may cause harm.

Full stop.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't get the clapping. I think there are some very basic errors of logic in the post you quoted.

Should I tell you that if you made the choice to be married when you had children, you should never pass any judgment on anything, ever?

Please. The logic does not hold up. We all make judgments, and we make life choices based on our judgments.

The sheer duh factor astounds.







:

Where's the illogic? She stated that what's right for one family or one child or one mother is not necessarily right for another. That some people may believe that Choice A is absolutely positively wrong, but that doesn't mean it truly is. People can go around saying a WOHM has absolutely positively made the wrong choice, and they may truly believe it is wrong, but, in reality, it may not be wrong for another person, and may even be right for some families. People may think that being a single mother is absolutely positively wrong, but that doesn't mean it truly is, and may be the RIGHT choice for someone else. Child X might have issues with being left with someone other than mom at age 3. Child Y might have no issues with it. And Child Z might not be ready to be left with someone other than mom until age 7 or 8. Each mother, each family, each child is different, which is what dragonflyblue stated. Why try to push every mother and every child into the same neat little box?

.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I just don't see the problem here. I don't know why this makes them immature, dumb, selfish or not real parents. Mothering is important, but the relationship between two parents is important too and so is the well-being of both parents.

I do home daycare to keep DS out of daycare, because I'd rather him be home with me. I don't, however, think there's anything wrong with putting a child in daycare. If I did, then I wouldn't do daycare, because I wouldn't be able to work with the parents at all. I do think a parent should try to find quality daycare and stick with it, not shuffle their kids around, and I don't think kids thrive spending 51+ hours or some crazy amount of time in daycare. But in and of itself daycare just doesn't bother me. I use the daycare facility at my gym now and again, 2 hours at a time. I have my friend babysit so DH and I can go on dates. I have the right to exercise and stay in good shape, to have mommy time to myself, and to spend time alone with my DH. It doesn't negatively affect my child. He enjoys playing with other kids and hardly notices I'm gone.

I also don't see the harm in being seperated from mama for 3 weeks, if they are used to seperation, weaned, able to talk to mama on the phone, etc. I don't see anything selfish or immature about leaving your children with their loving grandparents to go visit a deployed DH who is alone in a foreign country. I wouldn't do it, as DS has yet to spend a night away from me and probably couldn't handle it at this point. I feel a very strong desire to be near him (he completes me!). He hasn't spent much time with his grandparents, because we're stationed away from them. If I did go visit DH during a deployment I would bring DS, and if I couldn't, then I probably just wouldn't go. But that is me, at this point in our life. If DS was used to being away from me, knew his grandparents better, and if I couldn't afford to bring him, I'd have no problem leaving him with his grandparents for 3 weeks.

Even if it was a cruise I'd see no problem with it. I have a neice and nephew, ages 3 and 1, and they were left with their grandparents while their parents went on a cruise. I didn't think much of it at all. I think married couples have the right to spend time alone together, to do adult things from time to time. They made sure the kids were well cared for, and these kids are used to staying with grandma, love grandma, etc. They weren't harmed by it that I could tell. Neice understood that mama was coming back, and when BIL was deployed, she knew he was coming back then, too.

Even my son knows his dad is coming back when he leaves. He has been deployed or TDY'd several times. DS knows he's coming back. When he comes back he remembers him and is surprised. He talks to him on the phone when he's gone. It's the same as if he went to work. DS knows he's coming home at the end of the day.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
Where's the illogic? She stated that what's right for one family or one child or one mother is not necessarily right for another.

She basically said "All choices are equal." And she created an example of that by highlighting a choice I have made that some would disagree with, implying that I should never disagree with somebody else's choices because some disagree with mine.

I find it ironic the judgment demonstrated in a post about non-judgment, via the poster's choice to highlight my status as a single mama for use as example.

I am no less at liberty to judge anyone else's choices than a married mother. Unless you judge that being unmarried is somehow worse.

I find the implication otherwise to be highly insulting.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
She basically said "All choices are equal." And she created an example of that by highlighting a choice I have made that some would disagree with, implying that I should never disagree with somebody else's choices because some disagree with mine.

I find it ironic the judgment demonstrated in a post about non-judgment, via the poster's choice to highlight my status as a single mama for use as example.

I am no less at liberty to judge anyone else's choices than a married mother. Unless you judge that being unmarried is somehow worse.

I find the implication otherwise to be highly insulting.

I'm not saying all choices are equal. I'm saying that it is up to each family to choose what is best for them.

Afterall, who is better suited to make those coices? An outsider or the people actually involved?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
I'm not saying all choices are equal. I'm saying that it is up to each family to choose what is best for them.

To an extent that is true. However there is much grey area here. Some things are patently not allowed, they are illegal. Some things are strongly frowned upon. Other things are frowned upon by some, considered fine by others.

I agree that there is much vicious judgment toward mothers. However I think leaving young children for three weeks is something that will negatively impact them, straight up.

I don't think all mothering decisions should be off limits to outsiders. This is one that I consider worthy of having a (negative) opinion of.

As I said, YMMV.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Obviously there are things that are illegal and even harmful. What is illegal is black and white. What's harmful sometimes is, but not always. Some things are harmful to some but not to others. This is the kind of situation where an individual decision must be made considering the good of the family as a whole.

What about those mothers who have to be deployed for 12 months, particularly single ones? What about a mother who has to go away for a 3 week business trip?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Obviously there are things that are illegal and even harmful. What is illegal is black and white. What's harmful sometimes is, but not always. Some things are harmful to some but not to others.

And still other things are not illegal, but pretty generally harmful across the board.

Quote:

This is the kind of situation where an individual decision must be made considering the good of the family as a whole.
Why can mama not take the kids with her?







: That is IMO the correct solution.

Quote:

What about those mothers who have to be deployed for 12 months, particularly single ones? What about a mother who has to go away for a 3 week business trip?
I think those situations cause equal harm.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

From the OP:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Happy Becky* 
I My nephew--3 yo-- had a VERY rough time with the transition to his Daddy being gone when he went to Korea in May. He's been acting up like crazy lately and I don't think my sister knows how to deal with him or discipline him lovingly so I think he's running amuck and I'm afraid for what this three week separation is going to do to him now! The kids are not going to be able to understand that in 21 days Mommy will be back...

I totally agree.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa* 
But you have a loving partner to trade off with if need be. Is there never a time you feel the need to be out by yourself to just get something done? Ever a need for some time to just breathe? My guess if you ever have those times your partner takes care of the kids. The OP's sister doesn't have that and on top of that she's most likely missing and worrying about her partner. DS is with me all day (we unschool too) but I'm not sure I'd make it if I was facing a year without time by myself to run errands after I'd completed my own schooling and tried to find some clients.

Yes, I do have a loving partner NOW. My husband is not the father of my first son though and I have been a single mother in the past, while a full-time college student (my child was with a babysitter while I was in class 18 hours a week, so I guess I did get some time to "just breathe" if you consider college a break [which I do, actually, as a SAHM now] except I was home all summer). I've been a single mom on welfare. I still would not have considered leaving a toddler for 3 weeks.
A break is one thing. Sure, get a babysitter and go see a movie or read a book or hang out with your friends a couple hours a week. We could all use that. But full-time daycare by choice and a 3 week separation is beyond needing a break.


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Why can mama not take the kids with her?







: That is IMO the correct solution.

That was already discussed. It's VERY expensive, passports are needed (and not very easily obtained nowadays, it takes longer, more paperwork and red tape, etc), and it may not even be allowed since Korea is a hostile zone.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 
That was already discussed. It's VERY expensive, passports are needed (and not very easily obtained nowadays, it takes longer, more paperwork and red tape, etc), and it may not even be allowed since Korea is a hostile zone.

Oh, that sucks.

Here I could get an emergency passport for my daughter in less than a week.

The 18 month old would fly free. The 3 year old would get a child's fare.

I know nothing about the 'hostile zone' bit though.


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Yeah, there's no childs fare (you pay per seat-no matter the age or size of the person occupying it), and I'm almost positive that an 18mo would need their own seat as well. Someone said that for one adult round trip to Korea was $3k. With 2 kids it'd be $9k. And that's not including the extras (passports, food, lodging, transportation from home to airport and from airport to base, if there's a weather difference-the clothing, etc).

It's really a freaking shame the way the military discounts families, including children, in so many ways.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

In an ideal world, families would not be separated for such extended periods of time. In an ideal world, families would have a wide circle of friends, family, and community in which everyone felt loved, valued, and secure.

Until the OP's sister finds herself in such a perfect world, a world in which saving her marriage and the intactness of her whole family is a non-issue, she has to make the best choices she can with the limited tools she has available.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Where does it say that she has to save her marriage? I must have missed that.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Just as it is a gut feeling and natural assumption on your part that this act has the inherent potential to damage her young children, I have a gut feeling and natural assumption that two people who are married with a family who are forced by circumstance to spend an entire year apart would put a slight strain on one's familial and marital relationship, to put it mildly.

Slightly OT... but everytime I see your name, thismama, I often think of changing mine to thatmama. LOL


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

FTR, I agree it has the potential to damage her young children. I also agree it has the potential to "not". It is quite possible that it is in her and her family's best interest for her to take this trip and keep her marriage healthy and her sanity intact.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
Just as it is a gut feeling and natural assumption on your part that this act has the inherent potential to damage her young children, I have a gut feeling and natural assumption that two people who are married with a family who are forced by circumstance to spend an entire year apart would put a slight strain on one's familial and marital relationship, to put it mildly.

Yeah, I can see that.

I still think three weeks is too long. Did he have to take the job? What other options existed? Did they plan for her to leave the children for three weeks from the beginning?

These are the things I would be thinking about if I were making that decision. And I just can't see myself ever coming to the same conclusions as the OP's sister and BIL.

Quote:

Slightly OT... but everytime I see your name, thismama, I often think of changing mine to thatmama. LOL
Go for it!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
FTR, I agree it has the potential to damage her young children. I also agree it has the potential to "not". It is quite possible that it is in her and her family's best interest for her to take this trip and keep her marriage healthy and her sanity intact.

Sanity can be kept intact in other ways. I'm a single mama, I know how it is. I don't need three weeks away from my child to keep my sanity.


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## gracesmommy (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Did he have to take the job? What other options existed? Did they plan for her to leave the children for three weeks from the beginning?

Oh, right, because they're in the happy-clappy *military* (maybe you missed that part) where you get to tell them where you want to go and if it's going to be a problem for your family, well, no biggie, we'll just skip that nasty old nuclear thingamabob going on over there in Korea. No daddies need to go there, we have plenty of volunteers!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Sanity can be kept intact in other ways. I'm a single mama, I know how it is. I don't need three weeks away from my child to keep my sanity.

Could you twist this a little more? Seriously? Not even the Worst Sister On Earth said she's taking this trip for her sanity. She's taking it to see her husband, who is far away in a crappy situation and maybe needs his wife as much as she needs him.

Maybe she wouldn't be so stressed if she quit work and got welfare.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Her DH is military. He is deployed. You don't have much of a choice after you enlist. You go where they send you, when they send you.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gracesmommy* 
Oh, right, because they're in the happy-clappy *military* (maybe you missed that part) where you get to tell them where you want to go and if it's going to be a problem for your family, well, no biggie, we'll just skip that nasty old nuclear thingamabob going on over there in Korea. No daddies need to go there, we have plenty of volunteers!

Well, I wouldn't join the military or marry anyone who did.

Quote:

Could you twist this a little more? Seriously? Not even the Worst Sister On Earth said she's taking this trip for her sanity. She's taking it to see her husband, who is far away in a crappy situation and maybe needs his wife as much as she needs him.
I was responding to someone else who talked about sanity. That's why it's good to actually read the thread.

Quote:

Maybe she wouldn't be so stressed if she quit work and got welfare.
Hell, I agree. Better on the dole than in the military. WAY better.

*******

I'm gonna duck out here. Honestly I see that this is a complex situation, and the mama is making a tough decision. I don't argue with that. I don't think it is black and white. I'm not even arguing that she shouldn't go, although I am stating quite clearly that *I* wouldn't go. Me and she are different things.

The only clear judgment I am making is that IMO such a long separation will be harmful to such young children.

Maybe it's worth it in her situation, maybe it is not. That I cannot say. But IMO it is harmful, without question.

Good night.







:


----------



## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, I wouldn't join the military or marry anyone who did.

I was responding to someone else who talked about sanity. That's why it's good to actually read the thread.

Hell, I agree. Better on the dole than in the military. WAY better.

*******

I'm gonna duck out here. Honestly I see that this is a complex situation, and the mama is making a tough decision. I don't argue with that. I don't think it is black and white. I'm not even arguing that she shouldn't go, although I am stating quite clearly that *I* wouldn't go. Me and she are different things.

The only clear judgment I am making is that IMO such a long separation will be harmful to such young children.

Maybe it's worth it in her situation, maybe it is not. That I cannot say. But IMO it is harmful, without question.

Good night.







:


Harmful to whom and in whose opinion?

While you are entitled to your beliefs, beliefs are not facts. You know your child. You are best equipped to make life choices for her. Same goes for this other mama...


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
Harmful to whom and in whose opinion?

While you are entitled to your beliefs, beliefs are not facts. You know your child. You are best equipped to make life choices for her. Same goes for this other mama...

Harmful to the children, in my opinion. How is that not obvious?







:

Very true that my beliefs are not facts, as your beliefs are not facts. We are having a discussion about our opinions. On a discussion board. An ATTACHMENT PARENTING discussion board, although that doesn't seem to matter much in this conversation.

I didn't say I was best equipped to make life choices for this mother. In fact in this post you just quoted, I said the opposite. As I said above, it is really good to actually *read* what people are saying before you respond.

My judgment here is this, and only this: I believe it is harmful to young children when they must endure a long separation from their primary attachment figure. Whatever the reason.

I can't believe that is being so hotly debated here on MDC.

Hope I have clarified to your satisfaction. I'm feeling pretty done here.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Being seperated from your parents for 3 weeks isn't harmful across the board for every single child in every single family. You don't know her kids so you don't know how this is going to affect them.

What's correct isn't our choice to make but hers. A plane ticket to Korea costs a LOT. Two or three cost even more. When my DH was facing potentional deployment there, I looked up the cost of tickets for me and my child. There was no way we could afford a ticket, much less two. I don't know how I'd make it through a 10-12 hour flight with a 2 year-old sitting by me, much less with a 3 year-old and an 18-month old. I don't know how I'd keep them entertained, keep them from driving everyone else including me crazy, etc. It takes time to obtain passports, which also cost money. International travel may even require vaccination for the children. Maybe she doesn't want to take her kids to Korea, because of issues about the country or the base? There is a reason it is an unaccompanied tour. Maybe she wants to spend some time with her husband? Who knows?

Quote:

I think those situations cause equal harm.
I bet that makes those single working mommies and military mommies with SAHDs for husbands feel REAL good!







I don't think my child has been harmed from being away from his father for a month or more at a time a few times a year. They have a pretty good relationship, and those who know DS feel he is quite well adjusted.

Quote:

Here I could get an emergency passport for my daughter in less than a week.








Good for you! But I couldn't get one in less than a week. I probably couldn't even pay for one at the moment. Maybe this woman can't either.

Quote:

The 18 month old would fly free. The 3 year old would get a child's fare.
Not on EVERY airline and not on those flying out to Korea. Moreover, buying just ONE ticket to Korea will cost you enough. Buying TWO still costs a LOT of money even if they offer a 'child's fare,' which most international flights don't. The 18 month old would have to sit in mama's lap during the ENTIRE flight if that was allowed, and that is a LLLLOOONNNGGGG flight. Not everyone can have an 18 month old sit in their lap for 10-12 hours, and not everyone can buy a ticket to Korea, or two, or three. Flying with my DS for 2 hours is a pain in the @$$ and leaves me exhausted. I can't imagine flying for five times that with DS+1 all by myself.

Why does this have to be an issue of saving her marriage or not? It will help keep her marriage strong through the deployment. That's just as important. I visitted DH during his 4 month deployment, and even though it was a short deployment, I think that time was very good for us as a couple and as a family. I was able to bring my son because it was a domestic deployment (but not a TDY for some strange reason). There are ways of maintaining contact, but there is no substitute for real physical closeness. One year is a lot longer to go without a hug than 3 weeks.

Quote:

Well, I wouldn't join the military or marry anyone who did.
I said that too until I fell in love with a boy who had already signed up to go to basic training a few months after we began dating. The military made a man of him and has enabled him to provide a damn good life for us. I rather enjoy owning my own home and vehicle, the security of knowing that the paycheck will always come twice a month, having food on my table, knowing that my DH is getting a free college education and training that will enable him to make an even more wonderful life for us when he's done with the military, etc. I wasn't counting on falling in love when we started dating, but we did--and I don't regret it.

Quote:

Better on the dole than in the military. WAY better.
I'll tell my husband you said that. I'm sure it will make his time away from his family and his long hours at work seem so appreciated. Just so you know, you enlist for a certain time period, and you can't just suddenly get out because you don't want to go on a deployment. You don't get out until the jig is up.

Quote:

An ATTACHMENT PARENTING discussion board, although that doesn't seem to matter much in this conversation.
So people who are in the military or have spouses in the military can't be proper attachment parents? I thought AP was more of a general philosphy than a set of strict guidelines. I guess I'm just not crunchy enough. Because my husband is in the military.


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## glorified_rice (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
My judgment here is this, and only this: I believe it is harmful to young children when they must endure a long separation from their primary attachment figure. Whatever the reason.

I can't believe that is being so hotly debated here on MDC.

Hope I have clarified to your satisfaction. I'm feeling pretty done here.

ITA. I would think that most people who practice attachment parenting would be concerned about a scenario like the one the op posted about, regardless of the situation at hand. I know that I would be concerned for the kids and how they would respond to such a lengthy separation and at such a young age. I would be concerned about possible trauma from such a separation and personally could never physically be separated from my child without having some severe problems myself (I think I would be physically ill, actually). The OP is obviously practicing attachment parenting with her children, thus, this sort of thing concerns her...as it should. But most people do not practice AP, and it's obvious that her sister doesn't. So, I guess it comes down to this: Does the OP have the right to be concerned for the welfare of her niece and nephew? I say yes, absolutely. Does she have any say in the matter whatsoever? No.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
Yes, I do have a loving partner NOW. My husband is not the father of my first son though and I have been a single mother in the past, while a full-time college student (my child was with a babysitter while I was in class 18 hours a week, so I guess I did get some time to "just breathe" if you consider college a break [which I do, actually, as a SAHM now] except I was home all summer). I've been a single mom on welfare. I still would not have considered leaving a toddler for 3 weeks.
A break is one thing. Sure, get a babysitter and go see a movie or read a book or hang out with your friends a couple hours a week. We could all use that. *But full-time daycare by choice and a 3 week separation is beyond needing a break.*

_ita_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Where does it say that she has to save her marriage? I must have missed that.

_it was never said just assumed..._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 
That was already discussed. It's VERY expensive, passports are needed (and not very easily obtained nowadays, it takes longer, more paperwork and red tape, etc), and it may not even be allowed since Korea is a hostile zone.

_true i looked it up, it's expensive but according to my dp "i would suggest they eat some top ramen for awhile b/c it's not fair that he isn't getting to see his kids, and the kids aren't seeing him"_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
And still other things are not illegal, but pretty generally harmful across the board.

Why can mama not take the kids with her?







: That is IMO the correct solution.

_i know when i first posted i was the first one to suggest this and then the debate began ....da dum da_

I think those situations cause equal harm.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Obviously there are things that are illegal and even harmful. What is illegal is black and white. What's harmful sometimes is, but not always. Some things are harmful to some but not to others. This is the kind of situation where an individual decision must be made considering the good of the family as a whole.

What about those mothers who have to be deployed for 12 months, particularly single ones? What about a mother who has to go away for a 3 week business trip?

_umm...if you go away for a three week trip i would think you would call a trusted friend to stay at the hotel w/your kids while you did what you had to do...that's what i would do...i am totally against leaving a child for three weeks i don't care what it's for (i know someone is going to have a great what if post for this







)_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
That is definitely true and if the mom was leaving for 3 weeks so she could go on a celebrity cruise, I would be with the OP. But no, she is going to visit her DH who is deployed in Korea _for a year_. Sometimes moms need to make choices that suck and IMO this is one of those times.

What struck me most about the OP was how she talked about how horrible her sister is for using daycare to run errands but she never once mentioned going over to help her out. Or helping her in some other way. Her sister has 2 small children, is starting a business to support her family and her husband is overseas. She needs family support right now.


_people have just assumed the worst about the op not offering help...just as they have assumed the worst about those mom who don't like to leave their dc... may the op has offered help and the sis refused it!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
_i'm begging this time please quote one person in this thread who has said "i'm better blah blah blah" i keep seeing people refering to it but no one is hitting "quote" i'm happy you spelled it out, i couldn't figure out why eveyone was getting their knickers in a twist....i must have missed those threads b/c i've never seen moms getting told they "don't love their kids as much" imo that is an awful thing to say..._


I'm not sure I've ever seen "I love my kids more than you do because you use high school sitters and I don't." Or "I'm a better mom than you are because I've never been away from my kids for longer than five minutes and they are 14, 11 and 7."

It is inferred. Read between the lines and it is really very clear. There are people here who think they are better than I am because they homeschool and I don't. Or they EBF or cosleep or any number of other things. Moms who had c-sections are sometimes assumed not to have done their research by those of us who homebirth. Different opinions on discipline, circ, vax, on and on and on.

It is just human nature. We do what we think is best, and tend to look down on (in whatever subtle, nicely put way) others who didn't do that.

Saying "I would never" and "it would harm them" IS judging. We all judge.[/quote]

_why is "i would never" judging and not just making a simple statement about yourself? ex. i would never eat clumpy milk! am i judging milk?reading between the lines and getting offened is your choice imo. i say what i think and try to make it VERY CLEAR in fact most of this post has been so debatable b/c people have read between the lines and got their knickers in a twist!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DragonflyBlue* 
I'm not saying all choices are equal. I'm saying that it is up to each family to choose what is best for them.

Afterall, who is better suited to make those coices? An outsider or the people actually involved?


_some familys choose to abuse/kill their kids, they think it is ok...outsiders step in and throw them in jail...so in some cases outsiders are necessary!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
To an extent that is true. However there is much grey area here. Some things are patently not allowed, they are illegal. Some things are strongly frowned upon. Other things are frowned upon by some, considered fine by others.

I agree that there is much vicious judgment toward mothers. However I think leaving young children for three weeks is something that will negatively impact them, straight up.

I don't think all mothering decisions should be off limits to outsiders. *This is one that I consider worthy of having a (negative) opinion of.*

As I said, YMMV.


_bolded ITA_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
From the OP:

I totally agree.


_yeah this is why i started my reply to this topic...i was worried about the kids based on what the op said!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Oh, that sucks.

Here I could get an emergency passport for my daughter in less than a week.

The 18 month old would fly free. The 3 year old would get a child's fare.

I know nothing about the 'hostile zone' bit though.

_me either according to expedia i CAN go to korea and they didn't tell me jack about it being a hostile zone or restricted!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
In an ideal world, families would not be separated for such extended periods of time. In an ideal world, families would have a wide circle of friends, family, and community in which everyone felt loved, valued, and secure.

Until the OP's sister finds herself in such a perfect world, a world in which *saving her marriage* and the intactness of her whole family is a non-issue, she has to make the best choices she can with the limited tools she has available.

_where is saving her marriage anywhere in this thread? i am under the impression it is just assumed!_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Sanity can be kept intact in other ways. I'm a single mama, I know how it is. I don't need three weeks away from my child to keep my sanity.

_can i use this?_


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## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

It seems there's a lot of personal agenda going on that will get this thread shut down. I'm not sure how helpful that will be to the OP or her sister.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glorified_rice* 
The OP is obviously practicing attachment parenting with her children, thus, this sort of thing concerns her...as it should. But most people do not practice AP, and it's obvious that her sister doesn't.

Just wondering - why do you assume that the sister is not practising AP? Because she wants to see her husband and has made arrancegemts for her children to stay with their grandparents who will probably lavish them with tons of attention while their mom is visiting their dad?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I searched for tickets for next month for one adult, one 3 year-old, and an 18 month old in lap. It came to $2695.20 per person for a total of $5390.40. Do you have that much just...laying around? Like most military families, we don't at the moment.

Of course the three weeks isn't just about needing a break. It's about her and her husband needing to see each other, because their hearts ache when they are apart. Maybe she thinks this will help them stay strong through this deployment. Maybe she thinks spending this quality time with their grandparents will be good for the children. Maybe she just wants to spend some time alone with her husband.

Quote:

if you go away for a three week trip i would think you would call a trusted friend to stay at the hotel w/your kids while you did what you had to do..
Okay, so if I was a single mommy supporting kids by myself, and I had to go on a business trip, I'd fork over the money for myself to travel, plus my kids, plus my friends and pay the hotel fee for all of us rather than just myself. Because three weeks without me would be so hellish even though they are used to being away from me in daycare. What about my imaginary friend's job and her kids? Or is this friend childless and jobless?

Quote:

me either according to expedia i CAN go to korea and they didn't tell me jack about it being a hostile zone or restricted!
You can go to Korea, if you have the $3000 a pop for a few plane tickets. Do you? If so, great for you! Not everyone is so fortunate. Nevertheless, it is still a hostile place that not everyone wants to take their kids to visit.

Quote:

some familys choose to abuse/kill their kids, they think it is ok...outsiders step in and throw them in jail...so in some cases outsiders are necessary!
This isn't a question of abuse or murder, and making that comparison is just... ridiculous.


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## glorified_rice (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Just wondering - why do you assume that the sister is not practising AP? Because she wants to see her husband and has made arrancegemts for her children to stay with their grandparents who will probably lavish them with tons of attention while their mom is visiting their dad?

I'm not even going to answer this.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...64/ai_12338076


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

My parents would leave me with random stranger babysitters from a very young age and I'm kinda damaged. I was really promiscuous and didn't protect myself from getting close with random stranger people. I don't know!?!?

It could happen.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

I searched for tickets for next month for one adult, one 3 year-old, and an 18 month old in lap. It came to $2695.20 per person for a total of $5390.40. Do you have that much just...laying around? Like most military families, we don't at the moment.

_umm...i think this is where a loan would come in..._

Of course the three weeks isn't just about needing a break. It's about her and her husband needing to see each other, because their hearts ache when they are apart. Maybe she thinks this will help them stay strong through this deployment. Maybe she thinks spending this quality time with their grandparents will be good for the children. Maybe she just wants to spend some time alone with her husband.

_yeah maybe she does, just like those kids want to see their daddy!_

Okay, so if I was a single mommy supporting kids by myself, and I had to go on a business trip, I'd fork over the money for myself to travel, plus my kids, plus my friends and pay the hotel fee for all of us rather than just myself. Because three weeks without me would be so hellish even though they are used to being away from me in daycare. What about my imaginary friend's job and her kids? Or is this friend childless and jobless?

_i said *WHAT I WOULD DO*...i guess you missed that part, i have one child...so i would bring one friend not that much extra expense...one room double beds, drive there, etc._

You can go to Korea, if you have the $3000 a pop for a few plane tickets. Do you? If so, great for you! Not everyone is so fortunate. Nevertheless, it is still a hostile place that not everyone wants to take their kids to visit.

_no i do not, dh is trying to get his disability, and i am about to start watching a newborn, but i like i said before i would take myself to the bank or a friend for a loan...._

This isn't a question of abuse or murder, and making that comparison is just... ridiculous.

_maybe so...but hey it's the only comparison that hasn't been made on this thread!_







_and if you read the whole thread you might have seen where it was being talked about!_

_*ftr* i have only been saying what i would do, and i am not sure why what i would do is such a big debate!_


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_umm...i think this is where a loan would come in..._

You don't know anything about her financial situation. She's a military wife who goes to school (forgot what it said, but I thought it said everyday) and works PT.

Plus she's 23-not very many 23yos have great credit to just walk into a bank and say "Yeah, I'd like some money for me and my kids to visit my husband. Around $9k should do it. Great then!"


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma_goldman* 
My parents would leave me with random stranger babysitters from a very young age and I'm kinda damaged. I was really promiscuous and didn't protect myself from getting close with random stranger people. I don't know!?!?

It could happen.


But being left with random strangers is completely different than being left with loving grandparents.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

We're talking about a daycare center they are going to attend regularly and a visit with grandparents, not random strange babysitters.

Quote:

umm...i think this is where a loan would come in...
laughup

For one, personal loans are incredibly difficult to acquire, even for those with good credit. Credit cards are easy enough to obtain, but only if you have a good credit score and a high enough income will you get a limit high enough to enable you to spend in excess of $5390.40. Moreover, it would take months or years to pay that off at the usual 21% interest rate, so you'd be paying for those three weeks for a good long while. I hate when people just say, oh, if you don't have the money, just charge it! I get that all the time from my family when they want me to buy something I don't need or come visit them. It's a stupid thing to do unless you absolutely have to, and not everyone has the ability to do it. I learned the hard way how dumb it is to whip out a credit card, how difficult it is to secure a loan with low income much less a high debt to income ratio, and how hard it is to pay off a high balance at a high interest rate. We're still learning that lesson. I think the OP's sister is rather intelligent to avoid that situation. And maybe, like us, she learned the hard way too and is still learning. She may very well have student loans if she's going to school, which could make it hard for her to get credit for $5500 or so much less to afford to pay it back.

Quote:

yeah maybe she does just like those kids want to see there daddy!
I bet they do, but that's the price you pay to serve your country: lots of sacrifice. Most military families can't afford one ticket to Korea, much less two or three. The money ain't that great.

Quote:

i said WHAT I WOULD DO...i guess you missed that part, i have one child...so i would bring one friend not that much extra expense...one room double beds, drive there, etc.
Not everyone has that option.

Quote:

no i do not, dh is trying to get his disability, and i am about to start watching a newborn, but i like i said before i would take myself to the bank or a friend for a loan....
I don't have a friend or family member that could loan me $5500. What if the bank said no? You probably just wouldn't go then, right? Same here, but that's me. That doesn't mean the OP is wrong to do otherwise. Perhaps the OP, like me, doesn't have a friend or family member to give her the money. Perhaps she put this trip on her credit card and reached her limit just to buy this ticket? Spending $3000 usually pushes a family's budget, especially when they are lower-ranking military. Perhaps they are already in debt and can't rack up anymore? There does come a point when people stop giving you money.

There's going to be a big debate anytime someone is called selfish, dumb, immature, and not a real parent for leaving their children with loving grandparents for 3 weeks while they fly 10 hours all the way to Korea, shelling out an excess of three grand, to see their deployed husband who is all alone in a foreign country. And when that act is compared to abuse and murder.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
But being left with random strangers is completely different than being left with loving grandparents.

Yeah, but what if the kids don't know them? And being suddenly parented by grandparents could be shocking to the sensitive child.

I know my grandparents are beloved by my DC, but they're not *close*. My DC is still kinda scared of grandpa...


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Happy Becky* 
*I just HAVE to post this....to vent or whatever! I just cannot fathom doing this myself!!*

My sister is 23 and has a 3 yr old son and 18 mo. dd. It seems like my sister and brother-in-law wanted kids early and now that they have them, they're too immature to quit acting like dumb kids and like a real Mommy and Daddy. I don't know...

My brother-in-law is in Korea for one year and my sister is leaving on the 24th to go visit him for two weeks. She's going to leave her two kids with his parents!! *The worst part is, to make the "drop-off" easier, she's taking them to meet her father-in-law 4 days early so that it falls on the weekend! So now by the time they are there for 4 days, my sister is in Korea for two weeks and gets back to get them, the kids will be at their grandparents house for 3 weeks w/o Mommy or Daddy!!!* _I just cannot fathom doing this to my kids! 3 weeks is WAY too long!_ *My nephew--3 yo-- had a VERY rough time with the transition to his Daddy being gone when he went to Korea in May. He's been acting up like crazy lately and I don't think my sister knows how to deal with him or discipline him lovingly so I think he's running amuck and I'm afraid for what this three week separation is going to do to him now! The kids are not going to be able to understand that in 21 days Mommy will be back*...that she just went on a long vacation without them!!

_Also, this was their first week in a brand new day care full-time instead of part-time_...don't even get me started on this issue!! My sister goes to school every morning from 8-11 or 12 so the kids were in daycare for the mornings after their Daddy left. Now she switched them to a different day care for all day so that she can have more time to do whatever...she's a massage therapist and wants to build her clientell...but also now she can go to the gym by herself, go grocery shopping by herself, etc. etc. It just seems so crazily selfish to me! I just could not do it! *I'm not trying to undermine the hardship she is going thru, with her hubbie deployed for a year, basically being a single parent for a whole year, etc*..._but it seems to me there has got to be other ways to deal with it and get some "alone" time to keep her sanity._ It just makes me feel like she is NOT ready to drop her own priorities to be a M-O-M-M-Y. It seems so selfish and immature to me!

I just really feel that it is my calling to be a Mom and that being one is THE single most important job on the earth! I am willing to forsake myself for my kids' comfort, etc. She's just not doing that and I can't see where she's coming from.

I should stop now...what do you all think?? _I'm sad for my nephew and niece!_


_i'm pretty much done w/this thread but fron what i get the op is just worried about her niece and nephew! i would think with an ap board the rest of us would be too...she gave her opinion and i gave mine and i guess not wanting to be away from your kids is just not cool around here!_

_peace..._


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I do see that she's "just worried," though I don't think there is any reason to be.

I also see where she called her sister and her husband dumb kids, selfish, immature, not real parents, etc. for making this decision.

It looks to me like they are in daycare so she can get her education and try to build a business--for school and for work. Plenty of children are in daycare full-time, even the children of many of the attachment parents here on MDC. It's not harmful in and of itself. It's just not what I would do unless I had to.


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Cara-I can have fun with bolding the OP too. Lets go!

(I'll just snip though)

Quote:

She's just not doing that and *I can't see where she's coming from.*

I should stop now...*what do you all think??*
Hmmm...so I guess she didn't want to know our thoughts or have things explained from different possible perspectives?







: Yeah.

This wasn't worded as a support only thread. She asked. We answered.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I don't even get why anyone is arguing about this. She's not selling them on the black market. She's leaving them with their grandparents for three weeks. To see her husband who is in a dangerous area thousands of miles away for months and months. I mean how nice for everyone who controls their environments so perfectly they never have to deal with complications, but not everyone is as uh, a great of a planner as you apparently are.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

We're talking about a daycare center they are going to attend regularly and a visit with grandparents, not random strange babysitters.

_actually of you would READ the first post, you would of caught where they just started a NEW daycare, and they are MEETING their father in law 4 days early..._

Quote:

umm...i think this is where a loan would come in... 
laughup

For one, personal loans are incredibly difficult to acquire, even for those with good credit. Credit cards are easy enough to obtain, but only if you have a good credit score and a high enough income will you get a limit high enough to enable you to spend in excess of $5390.40. Moreover, it would take months or years to pay that off at the usual 21% interest rate, so you'd be paying for those three weeks for a good long while. I hate when people just say, oh, if you don't have the money, just charge it! I get that all the time from my family when they want me to buy something I don't need or come visit them. It's a stupid thing to do unless you absolutely have to, and not everyone has the ability to do it. I learned the hard way how dumb it is to whip out a credit card, how difficult it is to secure a loan with low income much less a high debt to income ratio, and how hard it is to pay off a high balance at a high interest rate. We're still learning that lesson. I think the OP's sister is rather intelligent to avoid that situation. And maybe, like us, she learned the hard way too and is still learning. She may very well have student loans if she's going to school, which could make it hard for her to get credit for $5500 or so much less to afford to pay it back.

i'm not even going to respond to this...i do not need a lesson in banking tyvm!









Quote:

yeah maybe she does just like those kids want to see there daddy! 
I bet they do, but that's the price you pay to serve your country: lots of sacrifice. Most military families can't afford one ticket to Korea, much less two or three. The money ain't that great.

hmm...mom can't sacrifice to? what is good for the goose is good for the gander....

Quote:

i said WHAT I WOULD DO...i guess you missed that part, i have one child...so i would bring one friend not that much extra expense...one room double beds, drive there, etc. 
Not everyone has that option.

if you have a friend you have the option...case closed

Quote:

no i do not, dh is trying to get his disability, and i am about to start watching a newborn, but i like i said before i would take myself to the bank or a friend for a loan.... 
I don't have a friend or family member that could loan me $5500. What if the bank said no? You probably just wouldn't go then, right? Same here, but that's me. That doesn't mean the OP is wrong to do otherwise. Perhaps the OP, like me, doesn't have a friend or family member to give her the money. Perhaps she put this trip on her credit card and reached her limit just to buy this ticket? Spending $3000 usually pushes a family's budget, especially when they are lower-ranking military. Perhaps they are already in debt and can't rack up anymore? There does come a point when people stop giving you money.

There's going to be a big debate anytime someone is called selfish, dumb, immature, and not a real parent for leaving their children with loving grandparents for 3 weeks while they fly 10 hours all the way to Korea, shelling out an excess of three grand, to see their deployed husband who is all alone in a foreign country. And when that act is compared to abuse and murder.

please read this whole thread before you keep posting, you jumped in and missed ALOT... well if it doesn't get pulled anyways...


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
if you have a friend you have the option...case closed


Serious question--where are you coming from?!? Case closed?

I have a few friends, and this would NOT be an option. My friends are all mothers and/or work FT and/or are not people I'd trust my kid with for any length of time over 30min.

You are a very lucky, privileged person, and this shows in your posts. I hope you are thankful of this every single night. I really do.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_actually of you would READ the first post, you would of caught where they just started a NEW daycare, and they are MEETING their father in law 4 days early..._

Where did she say that they were meeting the grandparents for the first time? I believe that she meant that her sister and the grandpa were meeting four days before she left to exchange the children and not that the children were meeting the grandparents for the first time.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 
Cara-I can have fun with bolding the OP too. Lets go!

(I'll just snip though)

Hmmm...so I guess she didn't want to know our thoughts or have things explained from different possible perspectives?







: Yeah.

This wasn't worded as a support only thread. She asked. We answered.


_true...remind me to never ever post "what do you think here"







_
_i posted what i thought in the beginning of this thread and it was a big deal b/c i said *I* wouldn't leave my child for three weeks...it was turned into a huge debate and i'm kinda lost on what the debate is now..._









Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I don't even get why anyone is arguing about this. She's not selling them on the black market. She's leaving them with their grandparents for three weeks. To see her husband who is in a dangerous area thousands of miles away for months and months. I mean how nice for everyone who controls their environments so perfectly they never have to deal with complications, but not everyone is as uh, a great of a planner as you apparently are.


b/c we don't have anything better to do tonight... i'm glad you think i'm such a great planner!


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadWorldSonnet* 
Serious question--where are you coming from?!? Case closed?

I have a few friends, and this would NOT be an option. My friends are all mothers and/or work FT and/or are not people I'd trust my kid with for any length of time over 30min.

You are a very lucky, privileged person, and this shows in your posts. I hope you are thankful of this every single night. I really do.









_i may be wrong, and i sure wouldn't want to accuse, but i'm just reading snark out of that post..._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Where did she say that they were meeting the grandparents for the first time? I believe that she meant that her sister and the grandpa were meeting four days before she left to exchange the children and not that the children were meeting the grandparents for the first time.

i could of read this wrong but please read for yourself...

"My brother-in-law is in Korea for one year and my sister is leaving on the 24th to go visit him for two weeks. She's going to leave her two kids with his parents!! The worst part is, to make the "drop-off" easier, she's taking them to meet her father-in-law 4 days early so that it falls on the weekend"

if someone has a better reason for the 4 days early than meeting the fil please explain it to me...


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

actually of you would READ the first post, you would of caught where they just started a NEW daycare, and they are MEETING their father in law 4 days early...
I did catch that. Again, we are talking about a daycare center that they will now be attending regularly and a visit with loving grandparents. That the daycare is new doesn't mean they are being left with random strange babysitters, and that they are meeting their GRANDFATHER four days before the mother leaves doesn't mean that either.

Quote:

hmm...mom can't sacrifice to? what is good for the goose is good for the gander....








Are you serious???

She is sacrificing! She's sacrificing 3 weeks with her children. She's spending 2 weeks shy of a year without her husband. She's raising two children by herself, holding down the fort alone. She's keeping the house clean, managing the finances, doing all the errands, paying all the bills--all by herself. You have no idea what military spouses sacrifice while their husbands are deployed! And if you did you wouldn't be up at arms about her spending 2 weeks in Korea with her husband and leaving her children with their _grandparents_ for 3 weeks.

Quote:

if you have a friend you have the option...case closed
No, you don't have that option just because you have a friend. Maybe all of your friends have jobs and can't take off work. Maybe they all have children. Maybe you have several children and can't afford to pay for travel, food and lodging for yourself, all of the children, your friend (and perhaps her children), etc. Maybe you send your kids to public school, and it's the middle of the school year. Maybe you homeschool, but you don't have any home schooling friends. And maybe you don't want them to miss 3 weeks of lessons. Having a friend doesn't necessarily mean you'd have that option.

I did read this thread, and nothing in it makes my points about the OP sister's potential ability to spend money on a plane ticket any less valid.

And if you don't have the $5000 to go to Korea then you're no better of a planner than the OP's sister, apparently!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

if someone has a better reason for the 4 days early than meeting the fil please explain it to me...
This is what it sounded like to me: Rather than drop them off at their her father-in-law/their grandfather's house and leave immediately, she is going to spend 4 days there with them until they are used to being there. Or, she is going to let them stay there alone for 4 days while she is still in the country in case she's needed. Or heck, maybe this is the only time she can arrange to travel down there to take them there. She wasn't very clear. She didn't say this was their first time ever meeting their grandfather--just that she was taking them there 4 days before her plane leaves to make it easier.


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## mamameg (Feb 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_true...remind me to never ever post "what do you think here"







_









And it only took you 5 months to figure it out! I WISH I had been such a quick learner.









And just so I don't come off as a total smart ass, I guess I should comment on the thread topic.

I don't think I would/could leave my kids for that long, but that's me. The OP's sister is in a situation that is sooooooo far from any kind of normal situation, I feel like judging her is a bit out of my league.

I also feel that in the big picture, kids know if they are loved or not and a few weeks with their grandparents will not necessarily "damage" them.

I guess what it comes down to is a risk/benefit analysis. How badly does she need the time with her DP? Will her leaving the kids damage them more than her marriage will be damaged if she goes without seeing him for a year? Yes, they are little and need their mama, but they also need their parents to stay married. IMO, that's important, too.


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## MadWorldSonnet (Jun 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraNicole* 
_i may be wrong, and i sure wouldn't want to accuse, but i'm just reading snark out of that post..._

You are wrong.







I honestly do think that you're lucky and privileged and that you should be thankful for all the options you have available to you. I mean that 100%.

Unfortunately, however, I do feel that people's personal lifestyle and experiences have colored their views of other situations with a somewhat rosey (yet at the same time, so black and white) hue. That's not snarky at all, it's the truth, put as simply and gently as I can.


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## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heket* 
It seems there's a lot of personal agenda going on that will get this thread shut down.

And it couldn't happen a moment too soon...







:

Love how these threads bring out the best, most compassionate and constructive side of our community. I will say it's impressive how deep people can dig in their heels and how tightly they can cling to their righteousness.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I did catch that. Again, we are talking about a daycare center that they will now be attending regularly and a visit with loving grandparents. That the daycare is new doesn't mean they are being left with random strange babysitters, and that they are meeting their GRANDFATHER four days before the mother leaves doesn't mean that either.
so being in a new day care for about a week is long enough to make you secure? i'm glad some kids can adjust to an all new day care center that fast...my cousins daughter who is almost 4 still isn't over her day care teacher leaving A. Year. AGO.








Are you serious???

She is sacrificing! She's sacrificing 3 weeks with her children. She's spending 2 weeks shy of a year without her husband. She's raising two children by herself, holding down the fort alone. She's keeping the house clean, managing the finances, doing all the errands, paying all the bills--all by herself. You have no idea what military spouses sacrifice while their husbands are deployed! And if you did you wouldn't be up at arms about her spending 2 weeks in Korea with her husband and leaving her children with their _grandparents_ for 3 weeks.

i'm half way serious...and really annoyed i posted in this thread that i would NOT leave my child for that long...just couldn't do it...and somehow that has been spun into this fun convo with you...

No, you don't have that option just because you have a friend. Maybe all of your friends have jobs and can't take off work. Maybe they all have children. Maybe you have several children and can't afford to pay for travel, food and lodging for yourself, all of the children, your friend (and perhaps her children), etc. Maybe you send your kids to public school, and it's the middle of the school year. Maybe you homeschool, but you don't have any home schooling friends. And maybe you don't want them to miss 3 weeks of lessons. Having a friend doesn't necessarily mean you'd have that option.

so am i to assume that because a couple of my friends could do this they are... jobless, childless? actually the friends who could have all of the above...i have one kid, not in school so when i said it was what *I* would do that what i ment...b/c it's what *I* would do and all...

I did read this thread, and nothing in it makes my points about the OP sister's potential ability to spend money on a plane ticket any less valid.

And if you don't have the $5000 to go to Korea then you're no better of a planner than the OP's sister, apparently!

please tell me what you are talking about? how is this relevent?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamameg* 







And it only took you 5 months to figure it out! I WISH I had been such a quick learner.









And just so I don't come off as a total smart ass, I guess I should comment on the thread topic.

I don't think I would/could leave my kids for that long, but that's me. The OP's sister is in a situation that is sooooooo far from any kind of normal situation, I feel like judging her is a bit out of my league.

I also feel that in the big picture, kids know if they are loved or not and a few weeks with their grandparents will not necessarily "damage" them.

I guess what it comes down to is a risk/benefit analysis. How badly does she need the time with her DP? Will her leaving the kids damage them more than her marriage will be damaged if she goes without seeing him for a year? Yes, they are little and need their mama, but they also need their parents to stay married. IMO, that's important, too.


be very very careful my first post started out like yours and look where i am now....


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

so being in a new day care for about a week is long enough to make you secure? i'm glad some kids can adjust to an all new day care center that fast...my cousins daughter who is almost 4 still isn't over her day care teacher leaving A. Year. AGO.
That's your cousin's daughter. It's not relevant to the situation of other people and other kids with completely different lives and personalities.

I don't see what their security with regards to daycare has to do with the situation of staying with their grandparents for three weeks, but no, I don't think a change in daycare shatters a child's security in their parents and the world completely. It hasn't happened any of the times I've got new clients or had clients go to a new provider.

Quote:

i'm half way serious...and really annoyed i posted in this thread that i would NOT leave my child for that long...just couldn't do it...and somehow that has been spun into this fun convo with you...
This fun convo is the result of your implying that the OP's sister isn't sacrificing, too, because she's going to Korea for 2 weeks, amongst other things and that she could/should have spent the $5000 on plane tickets and however much more on passports and whatnot so that she could take her kids to a hostile country, even if it meant borrowing money she can't pay back. Your acting as though because you could or would do something, others could or should is another contributing factor. Even if you're only half-serious about the comment related to the OP's sister's sacrifice, it shows a clear lack of understanding for what military spouses with children go through while thier husband's are deployed.

Quote:

so am i to assume that because a couple of my friends could do this they are... jobless, childless? actually the friends who could have all of the above...i have one kid, not in school so when i said it was what *I* would do that what i ment...b/c it's what *I* would do and all...
No, you are to NOT assume that because a couple of your friends could or would do this that everyone has a couple of friends who could or would do this. You didn't just say it's what you would do; you also said "if you have a friend, you can do it, case closed." If it ever does happen, you have fun making your friend lose money by taking off of work, making your kids and hers miss school, paying for travel and lodging for your kid and her and her kids, and shacking everyone up in a hotel for 3 weeks! I'll pass! No matter what you want to believe is plausible not everyone has the ability to take their kids with them every time they go somewhere!


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
That's your cousin's daughter. It's not relevant to the situation of other people and other kids with completely different lives and personalities.

I don't see what their security with regards to daycare has to do with the situation of staying with their grandparents for three weeks, but no, I don't think a change in daycare shatters a child's security in their parents and the world completely. It hasn't happened any of the times I've got new clients or had clients go to a new provider.

_apply that same logic to what you just said...it is bad b/c they went from 1/2 day care where they know everyone to, full daycare where they are "new" and do not know anyone..._

This fun convo is the result of your implying that the OP's sister isn't sacrificing, too, because she's going to Korea for 2 weeks, amongst other things and that she could/should have spent the $5000 on plane tickets and however much more on passports and whatnot so that she could take her kids to a hostile country, even if it meant borrowing money she can't pay back. Your acting as though because you could or would do something, others could or should is another contributing factor.

actually i don't really care anymore what the op's sis does... i said what i would do and was hassled about it, first it was the battle of the best mother...then more drama...oh yeah and more... i am going to make this as clear as possible....

IF I WERE THE OP'S SIS, MY KID WOULD GO WITH ME NO MATTER WHAT OR I WOULDN'T GO... that is my opinion...i'm glad i have wasted so much of my night on this... that is all i was trying to say but now i'm off in la la land and have no idea what the debate is this time...

No, you are to NOT assume that because a couple of your friends could or would do this that everyone has a couple of friends who could or would do this. You didn't just say it's what you would do; you also said "if you have a friend, you can do it, case closed." If it ever does happen, you have fun making your friend lose money by taking off of work, making your kids and hers miss school, paying for travel and lodging for your kid and her and her kids, and shacking everyone up in a hotel for 3 weeks! I'll pass!


i said if you were me...b/c i was talking about what i would do again you had a friend case closed.... you didn't get my last post forget it...
anyways i'm going outside to smoke, if this thread isn't pulled and you have more to say i'll reply to you but i am sick of this stupid debate...


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_i've had the chance to cool down...i'm sorry if i offended anyone, this thread has spun out of control and i can't believe i let myself get this mad about something on the 'net... once again i offer my apology if i offended you..._


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

WHERE is Happy Becky???? So much confusion; she could clarify facts for us.

It is so interesting to me what 10 years time can do to your opinions. A very good friend of mine took a 10 day trip to France with her dp about ten years ago. At the time her dd was just a baby - nine months old maybe? Dd stayed home with gramma - who lived in the same town and baby saw a lot. Believe they stayed in the dd's house. Mom and dad called every day.

Then I was horrified, because France isn't going anywhere and their child was young. I still think it was too long, and would have been better if the child was old enough to understand that they were going and would be back.

But... now I really understand how hard it is to keep a marriage strong long term. And it is clearly in the child's best interest for the parents to spend some time on their connection too. I know I neglected my dp's needs and wants when our first dd was young. I was so focused on her - not balanced even a little bit.

Being a parent is hard work. Being married is hard work. The OP's sister is 23 with two young children and a deployed dp. And going to school and starting a business. Sounds like she is doing an amazing job. No judgment from me!


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm closing this thread, it appears that everything that could have possibly been said, has


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