# leashes and harnesses for toddlers-what do you think?



## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

I am astonished at the amount of mamas here on this board that use leashes. I really do not think this goes along with ap/nfl philosophies and would really like some feedback from all you mamas.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Why do you see it as not being part of AP?


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Why do you see it as not being part of AP?

restraining a small child like a criminal to gain control just does not seem very ap


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## Danielle283 (Jun 7, 2005)

I think it would be a good idea to get one for my DD because she insists on walking when we are in a store. She wont hold my hand and takes off running all the time, so I dont get much shopping done. I havent got one though because im afraid of the looks I would get.


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## calicokatt (Mar 14, 2005)

I don't use a leash, but don't have a problem with them. I have 4 kids. And sometimes my back is turned for a moment dealing with one of them. I'd rather have a toddler on a leash than be attending his/her funeral.


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## Danielle283 (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
retraining a small child like a criminal to gain control just does not seem very ap

What about them sitting in the cart? Isnt it pretty much the same thing?


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

This topic has come up time and time again here and gets quite heated. It might do better if you simply searched for one of the old threads if you want to read different opinions. This particular topic can get pretty ugly.

--Olive


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

But why do you feel it's restraining a child "like a criminal", to get "control"?

I'm not sure that criminals are put on leashes, and I'm not sure how it's any more control than using a sling or holding a hand. In fact, I feel it is having *less* control, and allowing *more* freedom than a sling or holding a hand tight enough to keep a child from running off or being stolen.

So what is it about it that makes you think the thoughts of "criminals" and "control"?


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
This topic has come up time and time again here and gets quite heated. It might do better if you simply searched for one of the old threads if you want to read different opinions. This particular topic can get pretty ugly.

--Olive

The last time it was discussed, it was actually quite lovely.

By the way, I *have* one and was a child whose mother used one, but I have never used it with my son. I however agree with the idea of them. So don't assume that everyone who agrees with the use of them actually means they use them.


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## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

I don't see how it's not AP.









I think there are some situations where they could be very beneficial, such as at amusement parks and crowded street festivals. I have a friend with 6 kids and 3 are under 3yo. She uses leashes. It's better to make sure your child stays close to you through a passive means than lose your child and possibly never find them again, IMO.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

woof woof - that's what I always think...









i don't think they are evil per se, but don't see the point in them as I think they give a false sense of security. it would be soooo EZ for some creep to unhook the end of the leash and be off with your DC at an amusement park or other bz place - since i understand the point is to not have to watch your child all the time. someone could even hook something else sorta heavy on the end and when you looked around 60 or 90 seconds later DC would be gone in the crowds and you wouldn't even know what direction.

Maybe I"m overprotective, but i prefer to never take my eyes off of my DD.


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## mamato2boys (Nov 22, 2002)

I was thinking about this the other day. We don't have one; but I put my youngest (2 1/2) in a sling or carrier EVERY time we are somewhere busy or crowded. Essentially I'm using a baby carrier the came way someone uses a leash. Sure there are times when I use the carrier b/c my child asks to be carried; but I use it just as much so that I don't have to worry about him running away from us or getting lost. Am I doing something "more" AP by using the carrier instead of a leash?--I don't really think there is any difference. In fact what I'm doing may be worse when there are times that my son wants to walk but I put him in the carrier b/c we are in a crowded space. He might be happier with a leash on being able to walk on his own.

Maybe carriers aren't so AP after all


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## Maggi315 (Aug 31, 2003)

I don't see a problem with a leash or harness. I appreciate those of you that are able to watch your children like hawks, leave when things go awry, etc. But what about those of us with lots of kids? Where leaving isn't a possibility nor is it fair to the older kids? Where the younger kid is simply a runner?

I don't think that's it's against AP either? I mean as long as it is used appropriately. I think it is just a safety issue sometimes and I am keeping my child and if fact all my children safe. Anyone have to go running after a breakaway and leave your other kids? Or watch your child narrowly miss getting lost, hit by a car, etc?

Now, this might sound inflammatory, and really it's not. But I remember reading something that said, "What do you call a new parent whose baby sleeps through the night?" Are they better parents? have a better technique than you? More disciplined? Nope, just lucky, that's all. Those that have this area under control may just be more fortunate to have a kid that cooperates, only have 1-2 kids to watch, etc.

Now they have these cute backpacks the kids wear with a tether attached. My 3 year old saw someone with one and have been bugging for one all week. Funny, right now I don't really need one, he's pretty good at staying close, freaks out if he even thinks I am going somewhere without him, and now he wants a tether


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama*
woof woof - that's what I always think...









Do you relate it to a dog's leash in a negative way?

I relate it to a dog's leash in a positive way.

I grew up with Alaskan Malamutes. They are dogs who know their minds. They will "obey" you if they want to do whatever it is you're asking them to do.

We used leashes with them b/c we loved them and didn't want them to run away, didn't want them to be stolen, and didn't want them to be hit by cars.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama*
i don't think they are evil per se, but don't see the point in them as I think they give a false sense of security. it would be soooo EZ for some creep to unhook the end of the leash and be off with your DC at an amusement park or other bz place - since i understand the point is to not have to watch your child all the time. someone could even hook something else sorta heavy on the end and when you looked around 60 or 90 seconds later DC would be gone in the crowds and you wouldn't even know what direction.

Maybe I"m overprotective, but i prefer to never take my eyes off of my DD.

Have you held one of the harnesses in your hand? Have you tried to clip or unclip it? The one I own is rather difficult to clasp and unclasp. In addition, the child would notice. In addition, the strap isn't *that* long.


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## ozzyemm (Apr 15, 2005)

I have seen a leash that on the child's end is a backpack with a waist harness. I think this makes it "friendly" looking to passersby, and gives the child a job (holding his/her diaper, snacks, toys, etc.). We are planning on getting one when DS gets older.

I don't think it will mean I am less of a parent, or keeping less of an eye on DS. it just helps me be the best parent I can be.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I used to use one with DD, and I loved it. I think that they can be a really good thing, if used properly.

DD was a runner, and whenever we went on long outings, it was uncomfortable for her to hold my hand for long periods of time when she wanted to walk. The harness was our compromise, and she really liked wearing it. It worked for us when we needed it, so we used it. I don't really see leashes as anything different than strollers or slings.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
Do you relate it to a dog's leash in a negative way?

I relate it to a dog's leash in a positive way.

I grew up with Alaskan Malamutes. They are dogs who know their minds. They will "obey" you if they want to do whatever it is you're asking them to do.

We used leashes with them b/c we loved them and didn't want them to run away, didn't want them to be stolen, and didn't want them to be hit by cars.

*nope, not negative, just funny - that's why i put the laughing smilie*

Have you held one of the harnesses in your hand? Have you tried to clip or unclip it? The one I own is rather difficult to clasp and unclasp. In addition, the child would notice. In addition, the strap isn't *that* long.

*maybe with an AP parent things are different, but I've often seen a kid several feet away with one and the parent has their back turned on the kid *intently* occupied with something else because they think the kid is secure enough to not watch them. also, i know a lot of toddlers that would happily go with any stranger. and if it would be hard to unhook it, I am sure someone would find it a sinch to cut the leash. I don't have a problem with people using them - if they don't think that it means they don't have to watch their child at all.*


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## kerilynn (Sep 9, 2005)

For us, personally, it is more _attached_ for me to use the tether than to let him run away from me.

He refuses to sit in a cart, will push and kick if I try to hold him or put him in the carrier. My DH is in the Navy so if I need to grocery shop, leaving him at home is not an option when my DH is out to sea.

So, instead of letting him run around and get lost, he is walking, but _still attached_ to me.
FWIW


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## azjen43 (Feb 16, 2005)

I have to admit that when I didn't have a very spirited small child, I thought using a leash on a child was unnecessary and bordering on cruel. However, since I now have a little one who is a runner, it has become a regular part of our outings. We do have the one that looks like a puppy, has a back pack and a tail. Maggie loved it at first, still tolerates it now, and she hasn't bolted away from me in a public place since we started using it. While I would prefer not to use it, it is a good tool for us now to keep Maggie safe until she gains some impulse control.


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## ozzyemm (Apr 15, 2005)

If you check one of the other threads, a child got snatched from a stroller. Anything can happen in the blink of an eye; we just need to prepare as much as possible.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I am astonished at the amount of mamas here on this board that use leashes. I really do not think this goes along with ap/nfl philosophies and would really like some feedback from all you mamas.

WOW! What an AP, gentle, NON judgemental statement.

It doesn't sound lke you're really asking for opinions b/c it sounds like you've already made up your mind. AP is about attached parenting, not doing what 'looks best' or fits the 'mold'. I do what is best for each of my children, leashes or not.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Leashes are like a million other things: tools that can be used well or used poorly. There is nothing inherently AP or non-Ap about a toddler leash.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle283*
I think it would be a good idea to get one for my DD because she insists on walking when we are in a store. .

oh dear she insists on walking?? hmm my dd insists on talking maybe I should get her a muzzle??


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
WOW! What an AP, gentle, NON judgemental statement.

It doesn't sound lke you're really asking for opinions b/c it sounds like you've already made up your mind. AP is about attached parenting, not doing what 'looks best' or fits the 'mold'. I do what is best for each of my children, leashes or not.

I subscribe to attachment parenting and natural family living. Hmmm,I never said I didn't judge. we all do it is a natural human trait. I can't help it, when I see a child in a leash i think of a dog,donkey, horse whatever. or like a criminal having to be controled and chained up. I don't see how that is loving, ...putting them on a level with animals & criminals???what does that do to their psyche? their self esteem? their sense of trust and accomplishment? slings,carriers,hand holding this is all done out of love. human touch and closeness,bonding. it is done the world over. I don't see in other cultures people putting leashes on their children. it just seems lazy. My opinion thats all,it may be judgmental but so what







.I just really want to see how many mamas who subscribe to ap/nfl also justify the leash.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ozzyemm*
If you check one of the other threads, a child got snatched from a stroller. Anything can happen in the blink of an eye; we just need to prepare as much as possible.

I agree - that's what I mean - I never take my eyes off her unless I"m still physically touching her.







that it has to be like that...


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## maigheach (Aug 31, 2005)

I had a leash/harness for all three of my kids. My oldest, now 17, was really active, and most times, I couldn't keep up with him. And now, with my youngest, age 3.... well, let's just say I have bad knees, and don't think he should stay home simply because I can't run after him anymore. This arrangement has saved him from being hit by a car more than once.


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## brewgirl (Sep 22, 2004)

I think slings, carriers, leashes, strollers, etc are all tools. I cringe when I see a child who wants to walk stuffed into a sling b/c he/she is a runner and the parent's want to keep him/her safe. I understand why they're doing it, but it doesn't seem to be a solution that makes anyone happy.

I think sometimes people think AP is a series of check boxes and forget that respecting our children is the basis for AP. Kids come in an infinite variety and not every child will mesh with every "AP" tool or idea.

Although, I don't really no why I'm bothering to write this, as the OP doesn't seem to be interested in actually entertaining the idea that there could ever be a situation where a leash was more respectful to the child than other alternatives.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I subscribe to attachment parenting and natural family living. Hmmm,I never said I didn't judge. we all do it is a natural human trait. I can't help it, when I see a child in a leash i think of a dog,donkey, horse whatever. or like a criminal having to be controled and chained up.

Maybe it's your issue, then. Because if I'm out and I see a child with a harness, I see a little kid who's allowed to walk around and explore safely. I don't usually liken small children to animals or criminals.

Quote:

I don't see how that is loving, ...putting them on a level with animals & criminals???what does that do to their psyche? their self esteem? their sense of trust and accomplishment? slings,carriers,hand holding this is all done out of love.
I don't really think that wearing a harness adversly affected my daughter's psyche. She never minded it at all -- if she had, we wouldn't have used it. You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions here - that children hate being harnessed, and that all children like being in a sling or carrier. My daughter hated slings and carriers from birth. IMO, it would be less AP for me to force her into a sling than it would to put her on a harness. And when you're 3 feet tall, holding a grown-up's hand means that you've got your arm elevated so that all of the blood flows out of it. That gets uncomfortable after a while, wouldn't you say?

And while we're on the topic, I'm curious about something. Sometimes my 2 year old likes to play "doggie". She crawls on all fours, barks, pants, and asks me to throw things for her so that she can "fetch". Sometimes, she'll also get a piece of string and hold on to one and and hand me the other and tell me that it's her leash and I need to walk her because she's a doggie. If I indulge her in that play, am I somehow demeaning her or damaging her psyche by treating her like a dog?


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I just really want to see how many mamas who subscribe to ap/nfl also justify the leash.

IT's nice that you want other people to justify their actions, as I'm relatively sure that you really dislike having to justify YOUR actions to others. We all do what's best for our children. I don't have to justify my actions, b/c nothing I say will get you to say 'hmm, you know, that might not work for me, but it might work for them.' So, if you look at me and my kid is in a leash and you think I'm a piece of @$#) for doing that, I don't care.

Notice I haven't even said whether or not I use a leash/harness.

I could give you what if and you could say 'well, in that instance, it would be ok, but none other'. Then I could give another 'what if' and see if the response is the same. Then another, then another.

What if I have arthritis and can't run after my child when he/she gets away. What if we're at a playground and he/she won't come back when I call their name. What if they have a disability and don't understand 'stranger danger'. What if they're with an elderly relative who's not used to having young children around? What if the child actually *likes* using a leash/harness b/c they can walk without holding their hand up over their head to hold mom/dad's hand? What if I'm 8 mos pg and can't move as quickly as a 2 year old? What if my child has already slipped away and doesn't respond to his/her name and I ran frantically through a store, prompting a 'code adam' and NEVER want that to happen again? What if my back is not strong enough to sling a toddler for more than 10 minutes?

There are a million and one reasons that this particular tool could be used properly and it doesnt' necessarily doesn't make for lazy parents. If it doesn't work for you, fine, DON'T USE ONE. But why start such an inflammatory post bashing those who do?


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brewgirl*
I think sometimes people think AP is a series of check boxes and forget that respecting our children is the basis for AP. Kids come in an infinite variety and not every child will mesh with every "AP" tool or idea.

Although, I don't really no why I'm bothering to write this, as the OP doesn't seem to be interested in actually entertaining the idea that there could ever be a situation where a leash was more respectful to the child than other alternatives.









:


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## Monkeyfeet (Feb 5, 2005)

I am really re-evaluating my thoughts on these. I used to be dead set against them and I still do not believe that I would ever feel comfortable with one on MY child. However, I am trying to become less judgmental when others use them in certain situations. Recently dh, dd (17 months) and I were walking down a VERY busy street in Florida on the ocean. We were staying was on this street and we were walking 1.5 miles down the road to get ice cream. Dd did not want to be put in the stroller for the walk and she most definitely did not want the sling; she just wanted to walk. That would have been totally okay with us IF she would have held our hand, but she refused to. So we tried walking, but she would not hold our hands. We tried the stroller, that was worse. So we turned around and went back to where we were staying.
We tried again and she did the same thing. Luckily my mom told us another way to get there taking side streets so dd could walk without holding our hands on the grass. This took twice as long and by the time we got there she was quite tired so she rode back in the stroller. So it was happily solved, BUT I can now understand why someone may walk down a very busy street with their toddler on a leash.
Another instance I can understand is a dc with severe ADHD or something similar. A good friend of mine with older children said that she used one on her youngest. She had 4 children in 6 years and the youngest has Autism, a TBI, torettes and ADHD. He would just run off very easily. So instead of confining him in a stroller and not getting exercise she would use a leash. I really can see the need for it.

Now, I must admit when I saw a child about 5 yo walking down a quite street in the Adirondacks on one, I thought that was a little bothersome for me. But I am REALLY trying to get over making judgments w/out knowing the situation. Just because I am not comfortable with one does not mean that it is wrong.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Monkeyfeet*
I am really re-evaluating my thoughts on these. I used to be dead set against them and I still do not believe that I would ever feel comfortable with one on MY child. However, I am trying to become less judgmental when others use them in certain situations. Recently dh, dd (17 months) and I were walking down a VERY busy street in Florida on the ocean. We were staying was on this street and we were walking 1.5 miles down the road to get ice cream. Dd did not want to be put in the stroller for the walk and she most definitely did not want the sling; she just wanted to walk. That would have been totally okay with us IF she would have held our hand, but she refused to. So we tried walking, but she would not hold our hands. We tried the stroller, that was worse. So we turned around and went back to where we were staying.
We tried again and she did the same thing. Luckily my mom told us another way to get there taking side streets so dd could walk without holding our hands on the grass. This took twice as long and by the time we got there she was quite tired so she rode back in the stroller. So it was happily solved, BUT I can now understand why someone may walk down a very busy street with their toddler on a leash.
Another instance I can understand is a dc with severe ADHD or something similar. A good friend of mine with older children said that she used one on her youngest. She had 4 children in 6 years and the youngest has Autism, a TBI, torettes and ADHD. He would just run off very easily. So instead of confining him in a stroller and not getting exercise she would use a leash. I really can see the need for it.

Now, I must admit when I saw a child about 5 yo walking down a quite street in the Adirondacks on one, I thought that was a little bothersome for me. But I am REALLY trying to get over making judgments w/out knowing the situation. Just because I am not comfortable with one does not mean that it is wrong.

Thank you for posting this.


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## Danielle283 (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
oh dear she insists on walking?? hmm my dd insists on talking maybe I should get her a muzzle??









She is only 15 months old and when we are in a busy grocery store, I would rather her stay in the cart instead of trying to chase after her down the isles. Talking and running around a store are two different things.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

you can read this 28 page thread I started about using leashes.









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...sh+rainbowmoon

I did get one but we have used it once so far (at Disneyland). DS (2) loved it. I didn't







I have decided to rethink putting him in situations I would need it in and so far haven't. but I do keep it in the diaper bag just "in case". my DS does not like to hold hands and is a runner.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
oh dear she insists on walking?? hmm my dd insists on talking maybe I should get her a muzzle??









ITA. It's a lazy way to parent, the use of a leash on a human being, especially a child.

As for the use of leashes on dogs, they are for protecting humans from being chased and bitten by dogs who were never properly trained.

Why use one on a child unless you think you cannot control your child?

Attachment Parenting is about letting your child develop security and know that their parents love them and care about them. Using a leash negates all of that.

Using a leash is not lving, not caring, and it is dehumanizing.

If a toddler hates the grocery store, why force them along? You wouldn't force your best friend to go shopping with you, why force your child?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brewgirl*
Kids come in an infinite variety and not every child will mesh with every "AP" tool or idea.

Although, I don't really no why I'm bothering to write this, as the OP doesn't seem to be interested in actually entertaining the idea that there could ever be a situation where *a leash was more respectful* to the child than other alternatives.

Why is a leash even in the "toolbox"? What happened to using other responsible human beings to help you with your child? That is way more respectful than putting them on a leash.


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## royaloakmi (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm telling myself . . . "breathe deep, breathe deep"







:

I have twins and we used leashes when they were about 14-16 months old. They would NOT hold my hand, nor would they ride in a stroller (who wants to ride when you've discovered you can walk?). My old stand-by option was to put one in a back pack and carrry the other - they didn't want any part of that either.

So, since staying home and going crazy was not an option, I used harnesses to get them safely from the car and through parking lots to the library, rec center, etc. I could also make sure one didn't wander into traffic while I got the other into his/her carseat.

They LIKED the leashes because they were able to do what they wanted to do: walk and explore. After a couple of months, we had developed new safe walking/waiting routines and didn't need them anymore.

IMO, I was being as respectful of their needs as possible while maintaining their safety. There is nothing inherently non-AP about leashes.


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*

If a toddler hates the grocery store, why force them along? You wouldn't force your best friend to go shopping with you, why force your child?

um..ok. and what do people who can't leave a two year old at home alone supposed to do? pay someone to watch a kid that doesn't like the store?


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

We use them. I think they are great.

They fit into my idea of AP. I would much rather have a kid on a "leash" close by than a kid who has run away. I'm using it out of love and concern - I'm doing the best thing for my child.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

If a toddler hates the grocery store, why force them along? You wouldn't force your best friend to go shopping with you, why force your child?
So, do you suggest I leave them home alone? Or not go to the grocery store and then have nothing to eat? Leave them with the crackhead down the block?? It's great that you have so many people to help you with your children. MANY of us don't have that option.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I subscribe to attachment parenting and natural family living. Hmmm,I never said I didn't judge. we all do it is a natural human trait. I can't help it, when I see a child in a leash i think of a dog,donkey, horse whatever. or like a criminal having to be controled and chained up. I don't see how that is loving, ...putting them on a level with animals & criminals???what does that do to their psyche? their self esteem? their sense of trust and accomplishment? slings,carriers,hand holding this is all done out of love. human touch and closeness,bonding. it is done the world over. I don't see in other cultures people putting leashes on their children. it just seems lazy. My opinion thats all,it may be judgmental but so what







.I just really want to see how many mamas who subscribe to ap/nfl also justify the leash.

1. Who are these 'other cultures' you speak of? Are their circumstances the same as ours? I'm fairly well-travelled and I've seen harnesses used in many different countries.

2. What's wrong with being put on the same level as an animal? Seriously? I get the impression from your tone that you think they are lower than us.

3. I see no difference between putting a protesting child in a sling, stroller or in a harness. If it's done with love, I really really can't see the difference. You've thrown a lot of emotional language around trying to explain that difference, but I couldn't see any cold, hard factual reasons amongst it all. Someone could put a baby in a sling with harshness, yet somehow because it's a sling it would magically become loving? That is ridiculous. WE are talking about a piece of material! But somehow, if it's wrapped around a baby's arse, it's better than if the baby is walking? Ooooookay then. And why is sitting (as in sling, as in stroller) better than walking? Still lost.

4. (To Mamain the B's) - yes, in the ideal utopia it would be nice if people helped. However, in the real world, of fast traffic, distant families (I'm one of those with NO family close by) etc. etc. that's not always the case.

5. Not saying that I don't think the harness can be a bad thing. I have seen children in harnesses who were clearly being dragged along







I have used one only occasionally, but after one experience where my baby tripped, no more. Now I use the stroller. But I don't feel any better about it. Regal? Um, no. I see a stroller as akin to a cat in a cage: the child is restricted, even more than in a harness.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
So, do you suggest I live them home alone? Or not go to the grocery store and then have nothing to eat? Leave them with the *crackhead down the block*??

Obviously, you are not interested in a realistic solution.

I have six children and never once used a leash.
Quit being lazy and teach your children not to run away. Putting a leash on them is not teaching them anything. *What are they learning?*


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

Quit being lazy and teach your children not to run away
Easier said than done, sweetie







Stop ASSuming I haven't tried to teach my children not to run away. So, until they 'learn' not to run, are we supposed to stay home? Or do I try to run after two toddlers going in different directions? Really, I want your input since you are _obviously_ a much better parent than most of us here.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
what does that do to their psyche? their self esteem? their sense of trust and accomplishment?

Excellent questions. I don't think parents remember that these are human beings they are raising and just how much of an impact a leash will make upon their child.


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

you are so right! I can't believe the rammifications of leashes haven't occured to me until now! leashes are going to have a terrible impact!

hmmm... a safety device their parents strap them into to keep them from moving freely. next you are going to be telling us car seats are going to stifle their little creative souls.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Obviously, you are not interested in a realistic solution.

I have six children and never once used a leash.
Quit being lazy and teach your children not to run away. Putting a leash on them is not teaching them anything. *What are they learning?*

Exactly! I am one of 6 children,relatively close in age, and one of my siblings has downs and would not listen very well. My mother managed to get by without the use of a leash as well she comes from a large family hmm...no leash.. this is appalling and sad to say the least


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## Mearaina (May 3, 2005)

I always hated leashes until I witnessed an incident at the Jersey shore. We saw a toddler crying, with no adults. We talked to her and tried to calm her, and at that point I noticed 2 frantic parents with a little baby far down the boardwalk. It was obvious they were upset, they were yelling and looking. The mom had the same color hair as the toddler and it turned out she belonged to them. After that incident I no longer judge. If we had been a different kind of family, that child would have never seen her family again. I do not use leashes, but to each their own. We never know what another mama's life is like, and if my dd's would be runners then I just might go get a leash.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Excellent questions. I don't think parents remember that these are human beings they are raising and just how much of an impact a leash will make upon their child.

How do you know?

I'm asking that question quite seriously. If there is some research to show harnesses are inappropriate, I'd love to know about it. Otherwise, I'm still not seeing any facts to back either you or mamachandi up in your belief that using a harness is damaging.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
Easier said than done, sweetie







Stop ASSuming I haven't tried to teach my children not to run away. So, until they 'learn' not to run, are we supposed to stay home? Or do I try to run after two toddlers going in different directions? Really, I want your input since you are _obviously_ a *much better parent than most of us here*.

Stay home if you want. Pay someone else to go shopping.

For myself, I cut out the pictures of the food we eat and pasted them to index cards and put them on a metal ring. My toddlers were able to match the picture to the food on the shelf and therefore were able to go shopping.

For the ones who cannot stand the grocery store, they get to go with another adult to the park or go swimming, while I get the errands done.

If you refuse to utilize the resources in your community and claim you are all alone and cannot do anything but force your child to go with you, then try to be creative and make it a fun trip.

Grocery shopping is something that is a necessity, so it doesn't make sense to waste energy hating it or not liking it. It has to be done.

As for your last comment, I have worked my ASS off to be the best parent I can be and I am very happy with my accomplishment as a mother. Does it make me better than other parents? Yes. I have attended just about every single parenting class available. I take my responsiblity as a parent very seriously.
I actually think about the consequences of my actions in regards to my children. I don't just throw a leash on them to make my life easier. I never put them in a highchair, I rarely used a stroller (the one in my pics was borrowed just for that hour), and I don't use containment devices, nor walkers, nor any of that other stuff.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannonc*
next you are going to be telling us car seats are going to stifle their little creative souls.

Now why would anyone be that stu-pid? Car seats are a LAW. Leashes are not. A car seat will save your child's life. You don't need a leash to save your child''s life,just don't put your child in that type of situation.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tapioca*
1. Who are these 'other cultures' you speak of? Are their circumstances the same as ours? I'm fairly well-travelled and I've seen harnesses used in many different countries.

My dh and I have neither read of or seen any other culture,historic or present day, using leashes unless we are talking slave children.(I am native american,Ojibwe,I spend time in Jamaica yearly (my dh lived there)and my dh majored in african history which I have read and studied along with him for enjoyment) I have read alot of geographical/cultural texts (we homeschool) and have many friends from different countries,it is very diverse where I live, and we had conversations about this, it seems to be an absurd concept in the very least. And I am fairly certain as a parent,that they would laugh at you.
PLEASE do spill the beans on where they leash their children as it would be impossible for me to know all about every culture in the world,please enlighten me


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tapioca*
How do you know?

I'm asking that question quite seriously. If there is some research to show harnesses are inappropriate, I'd love to know about it. Otherwise, I'm still not seeing any facts to back either you or mamachandi up in your belief that using a harness is damaging.

The use of leashes on children has NEVER been researched. If it was, I am sure they would go out of business.

Let's see, how about three child development classes in college? I am raising children, so i thought it would be wise to learn everything I could, so, yes, I wasted my money and time in college taking those classes. I am happy I did, though.









Ever read The Magical Child? That should give you some insight as to how important it is to never contain a child or restrict their physical abilities to explore.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

have worked my ASS off to be the best parent I can be and I am very happy with my accomplishment as a mother
Me too. In fact, I consider myself a MUCH better parent than most. In my opinion, using a "leash" for my children to keep them safe when I have no other options is a very good parenting judgement.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tapioca*
1.

2. What's wrong with being put on the same level as an animal? Seriously? I get the impression from your tone that you think they are lower than us.

Well duh,
I love animals (I am a vegetarian) but I like to think that behaviours like eating your own poop and licking your b*lls arenot human traits to be measured against. So if you have to be technical YES I do believe that we as humans,on a level are above an animal. hwever with that said it does not give humans the right to be cruel.


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Now why would anyone be that stu-pid? . Leashes are not. A car seat will save your child's life. You don't need a leash to save your child''s life,just don't put your child in that type of situation.

Actually I think that a leash can keep a child very safe. If the kid is a runner and the mom has a stoller to push and a diaper bag to carry that leash could well keep a toddler from running into dangerous situations.
and I have read other posts of your where you don't seem oh so considerate of laws but now "Car seats are a LAW" is helping your case?


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tapioca*
1.
3. I see no difference between putting a protesting child in a sling, stroller or in a harness. If it's done with love, I really really can't see the difference. You've thrown a lot of emotional language around trying to explain that difference, but I couldn't see any cold, hard factual reasons amongst it all. Someone could put a baby in a sling with harshness, yet somehow because it's a sling it would magically become loving? That is ridiculous. WE are talking about a piece of material! But somehow, if it's wrapped around a baby's arse, it's better than if the baby is walking? Ooooookay then. And why is sitting (as in sling, as in stroller) better than walking? Still lost.

well the closeness for one, the baby wearer is exchanging energy with her child, loving in nature,the leash holder has an inanimate objct connecting her to her child. Now with strollers,(this is why strollers tend to be frowned upon in ap/nfl circles) have somewhat of the same problem. I barely use mine except when I need someplace to put my packages,coat purse etc. and on occasion a sleeping/tired child if we are at a concert or something. However I would still think that a stroller is better than a leash,because you are pushing the child around in a carriage (as I have said before in another thread) much like a royal carriage and this elevates the child giving regal, prominance, this is much more respectful to her being. Our history (human) does not show leashes or harness' as a loving parenting tool so there is already an association that goes along with it that cannot be shaked in our society and many others (slavery) How would you feel as an adult in a leash? as opposed to a carriage? or nothing at all? Holding a hand of a loved one?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
Me too. In fact, I consider myself a MUCH better parent than most. In my opinion, using a "leash" for my children to keep them safe when *I have no other options* is a very good parenting judgement.

How can you dare say you have no other options? It doesn't sound like you have even thought about other options.

My blind uncle raised 16 children and never once used a leash nor any kind of containment device. (Although two of them did fall out second story windows, one died, not sure a leash would have saved them. A window would have!).

Quote:

What's wrong with being put on the same level as an animal?
Everything. Why do you think they use leashes as a way of humiliating the prisoners in Iraq?


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

MamaInTheBoonies said:


> My blind uncle raised 16 children and never once used a leash nor any kind of containment device. (Although two of them did fall out second story windows, one died, not sure a leash would have saved them. A window would have!).
> QUOTE]
> 
> sounds like he did a great job


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannonc*
Actually I think that a leash can keep a child very safe. If the kid is a runner and the mom has a stoller to push and a diaper bag to carry that leash could well keep a toddler from running into dangerous situations.
and I have read other posts of your where you don't seem oh so considerate of laws but now "Car seats are a LAW" is helping your case?

If I can train a DOG not to run away, I can certainly teach a child, who is way more intelligent than a dog, not to run away.









I would never endanger my child's life by letting them be in a moving vehicle without a seatbelt or carseat. I have already lost my niece in a rollover because her mother took her out of the carseat to breastfeed her.

Teach your child not to run away from you. I am sure your child is intelligent enough to learn something that basic.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Stay home if you want. Pay someone else to go shopping.

For myself, I cut out the pictures of the food we eat and pasted them to index cards and put them on a metal ring. My toddlers were able to match the picture to the food on the shelf and therefore were able to go shopping.

For the ones who cannot stand the grocery store, they get to go with another adult to the park or go swimming, while I get the errands done.

If you refuse to utilize the resources in your community and claim you are all alone and cannot do anything but force your child to go with you, then try to be creative and make it a fun trip.

Grocery shopping is something that is a necessity, so it doesn't make sense to waste energy hating it or not liking it. It has to be done.

As for your last comment, I have worked my ASS off to be the best parent I can be and I am very happy with my accomplishment as a mother. Does it make me better than other parents? Yes. I have attended just about every single parenting class available. I take my responsiblity as a parent very seriously.
I actually think about the consequences of my actions in regards to my children. I don't just throw a leash on them to make my life easier. I never put them in a highchair, I rarely used a stroller (the one in my pics was borrowed just for that hour), and I don't use containment devices, nor walkers, nor any of that other stuff.

Right on mitb! Get creative mamas! Don't give up on your children so easily. The time that they are toddlers is a time of much learning and putting them in a leash just seems like you are cutting out a HUGE oppurtunity to teach life lessons,build character and create trust between you and them. One does not need a boat load of statistics,studies, or even a college degree to obtain common sense! Sometimes the more you know the less you know! (some of the more highly educated people I have met lack even the most basic common sense).


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

shannonc said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
> ...


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If I can train a DOG not to run away, I can certainly teach a child, who is way more intelligent than a dog, not to run away.









I would never endanger my child's life by letting them be in a moving vehicle without a seatbelt or carseat. I have already lost my niece in a rollover because her mother took her out of the carseat to breastfeed her.

Teach your child not to run away from you. I am sure your child is intelligent enough to learn something that basic.

and until the child has learned not to run, a leash can help them stay safe in busy areas. and you do realize that the whole DOG analogy isn't the greatest since puppies are about as mature at a couple of months as a child at a year right? our dog didn't properly grasp the concept of stay until she was several months old. kind of like teaching a 4 year old not to run. Not to hard a task really.
hey I got an idea, if you don't like leashes don't use leashes.


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

mamachandi said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *shannonc*
> ...


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Teach your child not to run away from you. I am sure your child is intelligent enough to learn something that basic.

There is a difference between intelligence and maturity. I have outlet plugs on my electrical outlets because I am not willing to take the chance that if I look away for one second my toddler might "learn" about electricity by sticking her fingers in the socket.

I have not yet found a need f or a harness, but I also don't have children with disabilities that might not understand about dangers of crowded places, I don't have many children, I don't have multiples, and I don't have a runner. I also don't have a bunch of people (even though I have many friends and family who live nearby) who can drop all of their responsibilities to help me out.

Even if I do my best to cultivate all that support and help, what happens when, like this week, every single member of my family is sick with a nasty virus and we run out of toilet paper, tissues, Tylenol, soup, etc. I had to go to the grocery store, my kids did not want to go, no one wanted to be around me or my sick family, you know, life happens. I don't understand why you have to be so harsh on people that don't meet up to all your perfect/impossible AP ideals. We're obviously not talking about people who use a harness in a demeaning or neglectful way. There are plenty of amazing AP/NFL mamas here who have talked about occassionally using a harness as a safety tool in a loving way.

And, btw, I don't understand all this about being above animals. We ARE animals.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannonc*
and until the child has learned not to run, a leash can help them stay safe in busy areas. and you do realize that the whole DOG analogy isn't the greatest since puppies are about as mature at a couple of months as a child at a year right? our dog didn't properly grasp the concept of stay until she was several months old. kind of like teaching a 4 year old not to run. Not to hard a task really.
hey I got an idea, if you don't like leashes don't use leashes.









Well that would be all fine and good because I usually don't comment when I see a mama with her leashed child,but here mamas are asking for advice on parenting.
I think the thing I have a problem with regards to using leashes and advocating them on this forum, is when a newby mama comes on and starts a thread asking for advice on her child who is running away and mamas chime in with the leash/harness as the answer







: .
Hello?? anybody out there? This seems to be a somewhat new trend (late 20,into 21 century) WHAT DID MAMAS DO BEFORE THIS BRILLIANT INVENTION???


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli*
And, btw, I don't understand all this about being above animals. We ARE animals.









Well _we_ are human beings


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

When my son was very young, he was my foster son. I had 3 or 4 small kids, and he was extremely hyperactive/had NO impulse control.

If he saw a leaf or a ball in teh gutter, he went for it. Even at 4 and 5, he would dash across the street without looking, and even though it was forbnidden!

We didn't have a car. If we needed groceries, walked to the store, bought them and walked home. Temper tantrums were unfortunate, but a screaming child vs enough food to eat....we'd grab the food, and get home as best we could.

My son never objected to our 'hand holder'. He liked it because he could get a little further away, could inspect that bug or grab that toy off someone's lawn







while I was picking up someone who'd tripped or yelling at an older kid to "STOP" at the corner.

I didn't use it in the stores, he needed to explore. But I never felt guilty for using a tool that kept my child safe. By 4 the only other tool would have been a stroller....and once they could walk, I encouraged it! Esp for hyper boy! (Man could he move! 20 kids in 4 years and this one had wings! Grandparents, aunts and uncles used to help out and come back exhausted.)


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Okay, whatever, but human beings are animals. We're not plants. We're not rocks. We're not viruses. We're animals.

And it isn't a new trend. You can see paintings of people in Victorian and earlier garb with children on harnesses.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Human beings are animals, specifically primates.









Back to topic. My two DD's HATED strollers and slings with a passion. They would kick and scream every time I brought them out. So my solution was either to lug them around everywhere and risk breaking my arms off







or use a leash. They liked leashes, they could walk freely and explore and our trips out went much more smoothly. I think its much more gentle and AP to allow the child to walk freely and happily (as it was with my DD's) than to force them into a stroller, sling, or to hold my hand when the clearly don't want to. I only used them when they wanted to, and when they finally learned not to bolt off, I stopped using them. Its not the leash thats un-AP, its how it is used. Slings could be un-AP if you're forcing a screaming child into one when s/he doesn't want to be there.


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## shannonc (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
Well that would be all fine and good because I usually don't comment when I see a mama with her leashed child,but here mamas are asking for advice on parenting.
I think the thing I have a problem with regards to using leashes and advocating them on this forum, is when a newby mama comes on and starts a thread asking for advice on her child who is running away and mamas chime in with the leash/harness as the answer







: .
Hello?? anybody out there? This seems to be a somewhat new trend (late 20,into 21 century) WHAT DID MAMAS DO BEFORE THIS BRILLIANT INVENTION???

well before this brilliant invention I believe *most* children were safe, but there was of course a small percentage of people who lost children in public places never to see them again, and of course a child now and again fell or ran in the way of moving vehicles/objects that could hurt them. I say if something helps even ONE child stay safe then go for it.

and WHAT exactly is wrong with the leash? please tell me? what makes a leash so dreadfully wrong? Have you heard older children in therapy crying because their mom had a strap around their wrist at disneyland when they were 3 and it scars them to this day?

I never used a leash with my son. I have only one child and while he is a quick thing, I never had any other children to deal with so he had my undivided attention. However I would rather see a toddler on a leash able to move about and see what is around them and not have the fear of them getting lost, kidnapped, hit by cars, or what have you while the mom turns around to tie another child's shoe.


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## cornflower_3 (Jan 15, 2006)

I just read through this thread. Didn't someone a while back say this debate could get ugly? Well if nothing else arises from this thread that person has certainly be proved right. :nana: When it comes to keeping our children safe, we each have to assess our own situation and decide whats best. I've never used a harness personally, but I do use a stroller so I'm not really feeling superior here. As far as who is a better parent, we'll all have to wait until our children are grown with their own children so they can judge us on that. But everyone please do come back to post when we get there, then we can all know for sure. Also, they are starting to use carriers for dogs now, like backpacks or snugly style. Does that mean we have to stop using those to?


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
Hello?? anybody out there? This seems to be a somewhat new trend (late 20,into 21 century) WHAT DID MAMAS DO BEFORE THIS BRILLIANT INVENTION???

Ever heard of apron strings/leading strings? People have been tying their children to them (hence the expression 'time to cut the apron strings' - ie: you aren't a chid anymore) for centuries.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
How would you feel as an adult in a leash? as opposed to a carriage? or nothing at all? Holding a hand of a loved one?

You mean, how likely is it I'll dash headlong into traffic just to explore? Not likely.


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## Tapioca (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Everything. Why do you think they use leashes as a way of humiliating the prisoners in Iraq?

Huh?

Anyhoo, still waiting for some facts...studies...research...something other than emotional codswallop...


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## Lillianna (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasciate*
Ever heard of apron strings/leading strings? People have been tying their children to them (hence the expression 'time to cut the apron strings' - ie: you aren't a chid anymore) for centuries.

Maybe the solution is to give the child something to hold onto without being "harnessed" or "leashed". In our class, if a child is "at loose ends" s/he can hold onto my skirt for a while, this helps them feel connected.

Personally, I think using a leash is degrading. And BTW, ALL children are "runners". They all need to exercise and use their energy daily!

I love MamaintheBoonies' suggestions! Having the child be involved in some way sounds like a wholesome and affirmitive way to keep the child close by.

My mother had 8 kids (5 that are 7 years apart). We went to Disney. No leashes!


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

These threads are hilarious









I will point out that there are some seriously pervy wackos out there. I'd much rather have my boy in a harness than in some pedophile's embrace.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lousli*
There is a difference between intelligence and maturity. I have outlet plugs on my electrical outlets because I am not willing to take the chance that if I look away for one second my toddler might "learn" about electricity by sticking her fingers in the socket.

I have not yet found a need f or a harness, but I also don't have children with disabilities that might not understand about dangers of crowded places, I don't have many children, I don't have multiples, and I don't have a runner. I also don't have a bunch of people (even though I have many friends and family who live nearby) who can drop all of their responsibilities to help me out.

Even if I do my best to cultivate all that support and help, what happens when, like this week, every single member of my family is sick with a nasty virus and we run out of toilet paper, tissues, Tylenol, soup, etc. I had to go to the grocery store, my kids did not want to go, no one wanted to be around me or my sick family, you know, life happens. I don't understand why you have to be so harsh on people that don't meet up to all your perfect/impossible AP ideals. We're obviously not talking about people who use a harness in a demeaning or neglectful way. There are plenty of amazing AP/NFL mamas here who have talked about occassionally using a harness as a safety tool in a loving way.
.

come on are seriously equating outlet protectors to leashing your child??
If you had been all along teaching your child about holding your hand in the parking lot,not running away inside the store etc then when a crisis comes up you would not have a problem because the child would be well accustomed to this routine. It takes time and i am not saying that it is easy by any means but you are truelly doing your child a disservice by not trusting them to become trustworthy.
I am not talking about disabled persons if I were in that situation I am not sure what I'd do. I do have a sister with downs syndrom and I can ssure you she was never in a leash or harness. but she was a mild case i suppose and I know my mom had a diffucult time and the thought to use a harness never crossed her mind....


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannonc*
well before this brilliant invention I believe *most* children were safe, but there was of course a small percentage of people who lost children in public places never to see them again, and of course a child now and again fell or ran in the way of moving vehicles/objects that could hurt them. I say if something helps even ONE child stay safe then go for it.

and WHAT exactly is wrong with the leash? please tell me? what makes a leash so dreadfully wrong? Have you heard older children in therapy crying because their mom had a strap around their wrist at disneyland when they were 3 and it scars them to this day?

I never used a leash with my son. I have only one child and while he is a quick thing, I never had any other children to deal with so he had my undivided attention. However I would rather see a toddler on a leash able to move about and see what is around them and not have the fear of them getting lost, kidnapped, hit by cars, or what have you while the mom turns around to tie another child's shoe.

I am afraid my child will fall down so I have her wear a full body cast whenever we go out...


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Actually this is funny. reading through all the responses justifying the leash. well i must say thet labeling your child "a runner" can only do harm. I tend to believe that the words you use to describe your reality become your reality so " a runner " you have...


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
come on are seriously equating outlet protectors to leashing your child??
If you had been all along teaching your child about holding your hand in the parking lot,not running away inside the store etc then when a crisis comes up you would not have a problem because the child would be well accustomed to this routine. It takes time and i am not saying that it is easy by any means but you are truelly doing your child a disservice by not trusting them to become trustworthy.

Yes, I am equating them, in that they are both safety devices, to be used with children who are to young to understand not to do something (sticking a finger in an outlet, running away in a crowd). I have a child who at 15 months still does not walk. I have a good friend with a child who walked at 8.5 months. She ran easily and quickly by 10 months. I don't believe that most 10 month old children have the maturity or long term memory to understand why hand holding in the parking lot or a crowded place is important. And incidentally, this child hates the sling.

Again, I haven't used a harness. My four year old holds my hand and understands very well why running away is a bad idea and that cars go fast and may not always see small people. She has gained that understanding and maturity and is as you say, accustomed to that routine.

What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of circumstances out there that may be different than our own. And it isn't really easy to understand unless we've BTDT. I don't have a 10 month old that runs. If I did, I would not hestitate to use a harness for her safety. You yourself say that you would not know what you would do if you had a child with disabilites incapable of understanding the safety issue.

I used to have issues with harnesses when I was childless and I thought that people that used them were lazy and irresponsible and couldn't be bothered to watch their kids. Now that I have kids and realize how fast they are, and how hard it is to keep up with a toddler when you are pregnant (especially a difficult pregnancy), I understand a LOT more why sometimes a harness can be useful. And I am no longer judgemental of parents that use them, if they are using them responsibly.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

And also, I think this is the end of my participation in this thread. It doesn't appear that this thread is going to get any friendlier, and the last time it actually got pretty nasty. I really don't want to be a part of that, so I'm going to bow out and try to keep it polite and respectful.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

I realize after all these posts that there is no good reason to use them,all of the reasons given have other thoughtful solutions. I will never use one, i will never advocate one. I am however shocked that there weren't more people coming on this thread stating the same,considering the pm's I've gotten.
good luck with all your children.

P.S. I will be here or there to negate the leash promoters


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

And another leash thread crashes and burns!


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## NoHiddenFees (Mar 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasciate*
Ever heard of apron strings/leading strings? People have been tying their children to them (hence the expression 'time to cut the apron strings' - ie: you aren't a chid anymore) for centuries.

There was a really cool thread on this topic awhile back.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Here's my opinion. I don't usually think that they are all that necessary. I think that they are used too much and too often. I also see them get used the wrong way more than I ever see them used a proper way. I also doubt that I will ever own one. _But_ I just don't care if other people do use them, it's not one of those big deals imo. I don't shake my head at the parents I see using them at the mall. It's just none of my buisness and why it gets people so upset, I guess I just don't understand. I'd rather fight about things like keeping boys intact, or encourage moms to breastfeed, or just focus on what I consider to be bigger issues than the use of a harness


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow, what a thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Let's see, how about three child development classes in college? I am raising children, so i thought it would be wise to learn everything I could, so, yes, I wasted my money and time in college taking those classes. I am happy I did, though.









Just out of curiosity, what books were you reading in these classes that told you harnesses were damaging to children? I am also taking child development classes (getting my degree in early childhood development). I'm only through my first semester though so, admittedly, there is still a lot to learn. Nothing I have read so far has even touched on the subject so I am curious so I can hunt these books down and study them!

And I have to ask- WHY do people care so much about whether someone uses a harness on their dc? Do you truely believe it's that damaging to a child? If you don't want to use one, DON'T! Noone is saying you have to! I've not seen one post saying that those who don't use harnesses are bad parents (correct me if I'm wrong, please).

And now on a personal note









mamachandi- I'm just curious what you would suggest I do (as long as it's done in a respectful manner, of course). I am a single mom trying to raise my son on my own. I HAVE to get groceries somehow (otherwise DS would starve, CPS would be called, and DS would be taken away. We wouldn't want that to happen). As far as I see it- I've got a couple options.

1) Force DS to sit in the cart, with him kicking, screaming, and trying to climb out. Both of us get frustrated, no shopping gets done. DS goes hungry. A variation of this is if I were to bribe him with something (ice cream, candy, etc) he might decide it's worth it to sit in the cart. Obviously not something I am going to get in the habit of.

2) Force DS to sit in a sling. Sometimes he willingly sits in the sling, other times he fights it tooth and nail. So I could force him in there and pray he doesn't wiggle himself loose and fall out. Distracted mommy, upset DS, no shopping gets done, DS goes hungry.

3) Let DS walk and force him to hold my hand. Have him pull away a hundred times trying to make a run for it. If he's successful there is the possibility of getting hurt or kidnapped (or at least lost and scared). There is also the possibility of hurting his arm if I hang on too tight when he's thrashing around, throwing a fit because he doesn't like holding hands. Not to mention having him hold up his arm that long to hold on to my hand is going to hurt his arm (hold your arm up for at least 30 minutes and see how well it feels). That trip will end up with a cranky, screaming, tantruming DS, frustrated and angry mommy, probably either none or not all of the groceries.

4) Leave DS with my dad (not really an option because I do not agree with his parenting at all and there is a chance DS would be treated in a disrespectful manner. My father is all for controlling a child, beating them into submission (verbally, not physically, though he's also a supporter of spanking). Hope DS does okay without me there (he is going through a period right now where noone but mama will do), risk having him screaming for me or being yelled at or whatever. Distracted mommy, possible upset DS, but he does get food.

5) Take DS with me, put his harness on (he likes his harness so I am not forcing him to do anything), let him explore safely, get my grocery shopping done, make it a game with him (he gets to lead to the next item on the list because he LOVES being first and leading people around). DS has fun, I have fun (as much as you can have grocery shopping







), we leave with everything we need and go about with the rest of our day.

Now, in all seriousness, which one sounds more AP? To me, that would be number 5.

I really, _really_ do not get why some people think the harnesses are evil. Really. DS is so much happier (and safer) when he's in one. How can that be bad?

And just because I did ask what you, mamachandi, would suggest I'll give you a little info about DS. He's 2 1/2, doesn't talk (does sign a little) so can't really explain what he's feeling/wants. Makes it hard to communicate with him sometimes. He is a very active little boy and always wants to be on the move (which is why he doesn't like the cart or sling unless he's tired). He has some issues with impulsiveness (as in, he will not (can not?) stop doing something once he has it in his mind that he wants to do it. If he's decided to run- he's going to run. He's like that with most things). He also has some issues with different textures/feelings (he does not like being touched unless he's nursing), which makes it extremely difficult to get him to hold my hand. He won't even hold my hand if we're just sitting at home. We are looking at a possible diagnosis of PDD right now but that doesn't really matter since it doesn't change who he is. If you have another feasable option for me, I'm all ears. Taking someone with me to the store to watch DS while I shop is not an option. His dad is not in his life and I do not have any friends who I trust to watch DS, who DS would also be fine with. I do not have any family around either who could do it (short of my dad who, even if I wanted him to, works a lot and isn't around all the time).


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
ITA. It's a lazy way to parent, the use of a leash on a human being, especially a child.

As for the use of leashes on dogs, they are for protecting humans from being chased and bitten by dogs who were never properly trained.

Why use one on a child unless you think you cannot control your child?

Attachment Parenting is about letting your child develop security and know that their parents love them and care about them. Using a leash negates all of that.

Using a leash is not lving, not caring, and it is dehumanizing.

If a toddler hates the grocery store, why force them along? You wouldn't force your best friend to go shopping with you, why force your child?

Well I am assuming that you have no food in your house because how could you I mean if you care more about how your child feels about going to the store? My child is not my best friend she is my child and she has to go to the store period she has no choice she is 19M old. I don't have a spouse home who can watch them. So to you security is letting your toddler who has no sense of danger run wild in the street is also okay because you are letting them be "independent"? I would like you to show me how you can control a 19M in the sense that they will not go into 5oclock traffic when you say no because hunny that is joke all in itself. I hope you don't use a sling because your controling them, seriously your newborn shouldnt be restricted to one it will devalue them.







: I rather my child be safe in a cute monkey harness then me trying to hold her hand in a very busy place. She can run pretty fast and in a crowded place bam shes gone. So you tell me how my happy toddler feels so down in the dumps and like she is less because she wears one for her safety.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

double post can you delete this


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

wow triple post can you delete this


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

So, I'm assuming, everyone who is against 'leashes', thinks putting children in shopping carts is an absolute evil also? No? Oh, okay... Really, forcing them into shopping carts and stollers is MUCH worse than having them wear a cute froggy backpack which happens to have a freaking string attached to it.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
So, I'm assuming, everyone who is against 'leashes', thinks putting children in shopping carts is an absolute evil also? No? Oh, okay... Really, forcing them into shopping carts and stollers is MUCH worse than having them wear a cute froggy backpack which happens to have a freaking string attached to it.

it isn't the restraint per se it is the association leashes and harness have- THEY ARE USED ON CRIMINALS<HORSES<DONKEYS<DOGS ETC><THEY WERE USED IN SLAVERY>


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

but being a human who walks on two legs and has a critical mind that can make comparisons and decisions based on intelligence-

the piece of material (leash) has no value in and of itself. neither does a gun, a box, a TV, a rug, a painting. All of those things only have value, meaning, or purpose because a human knows how to use them to do something with.

someone could use a gun to kill a person, but they could also use it to kill a bird if they were starving to death and had no other choice. while a leash or harness can be used for the unfair treatment of animals, it can also be used to help a puppy not run into traffic and get killed, and it can do the same for a human child.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Steph.[/QUOTE said:


> I answered some of your questions already erlier in the thread of why I have a problem with it...Anyway I will tell you what I did.
> 
> your child understands at 2 1/2 more than he communicates. he'll probably come out speaking in sentences very soon. I have also read studies of children who speak later are actually more intelligent than those who speak sooner,I will try to find that link..however thats another thread
> 
> ...


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

So basicly your upsett because what it can be associated with? You have no other reason then that? I can associate a lot of everyday items to be bad things but im sure you still use those.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayasMama04*
So basicly your upsett because what it can be associated with? You have no other reason then that? I can associate a lot of everyday items to be bad things but im sure you still use those.

No, thats only part of it, obviously,you did not read this whole thread-


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayasMama04*
So basicly your upsett because what it can be associated with? You have no other reason then that?

It dehumanizes your child, it makes them less than human when you put a leash on them. Children are intelligent. They have feelings and thoughts. Just because they may not speak does not mean they do not understand what you are saying to them.

Use your brain for one moment and think about it. How would you feel if your parents did not teach you the importance of safety and instead attached a leash to you? Even one dirty look from a stranger will destroy that precious spirit.

Quote:

it can also be used to help a *puppy* not run into traffic and get killed, and it can do the same for a human child.
I am sorry, but I did not give birth to a puppy. I gave birth to a human being.
FWIW I never used a leash on any of my dogs. Instead they were properly trained. I loved them enough to know their limitations and not allow them the chance to run into the street.
Babyproof! I have never seen a toddler run faster than a puppy, anyways.
Teach your baby not to run away before you take them near a busy street. Or carry them. Treat them like a human child, not a puppy.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayasMama04*
So to you security is letting your toddler who has *no sense of danger* run wild in the street is also okay because you are letting them be "independent"?

That would be dangerous. I never let my children run wild. My 1 year old is intelligent enough to know what danger is.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayasMama04*
I rather my child be safe in a cute monkey harness then me trying to hold her hand in a very busy place.

I love my children and would rather they held my hand than put a leash on them and degrade them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayasMama04*
She can run pretty fast and in a crowded place bam shes gone.

Why have you not taught her what safety is and what danger is?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd*
So, I'm assuming, everyone who is against 'leashes', thinks putting children in shopping carts is an absolute evil also? No? Oh, okay... Really, *forcing them* into shopping carts and stollers is MUCH worse than having them wear a cute froggy backpack which happens to have a freaking string attached to it.

I never forced my children into a cart or stroller. If they want to ride in one, that's cool, but if they don't, that's cool, too.

I think you are missing the most important thing, though, and that is that I have taught my children what danger is, what safety is, and the importance of not running away from us.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

OK I am having a hard time getting into the seriousness of this matter. All I can think of whenever I hear about threads like this is the one time - ONE time! - we were down at the beach and had to cross U.S. 1 (8 lanes) with *two* 2 year olds and armfuls of beach gear and we tried these little harnesses/leash things. My kids thought it was hysterical and there we are crossing Route 1 in the crosswalk with my kids barking and straining on the leash pretending they were dogs. I was so mortified I was practically purple.







Never did use a leash again. But ya know, they made it across in one piece.


















OK sorry, back to leash bashing....


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
Actually this is funny. reading through all the responses justifying the leash. well i must say thet labeling your child "a runner" can only do harm. I tend to believe that the words you use to describe your reality become your reality so " a runner " you have...

Well then, who the hell do I see about the million dollars I described as my freakin reality!!!!! I want my money, I've been labeling myself wealthy for YEARS!!!!!!!!!

As a search and rescue dog handler/trainer I have attended the funerals of 8 children--now I know that's no where near the number of children's funerals that MITB has attended, but still, I feel I have some experience in that department. Of those 8 children, 4 would most definitely still be alive had their parents used a harness/leash. They had wandered off at a hiking location, in a parking lot, one fell into a pond a mere 20 feet from his mom, she had turned to take a leaf out of her younger son's mouth, when she turned back around her 3 yr old was gone--they heard the splash, they'd already been looking for him for a couple minutes. Of course they didnt' know the splash was him, he was caught up in the reeds and my dog found him 5 hours later--very much dead, a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to do. His parents were actually VERY AP, I am still in touch with them now....Christopher was my very first Cadaver find and his little face will forever haunt my dreams. You know, she and I had a conversation about this a few months ago, she at one time thought harnesses and leashes were cruel, but now KNOWS that there is nothing crueller, more confining, more degrading, more horrifying than a tiny white casket.

Oh, and I think I did read somewhere that Safety First would now be supplying all serial killers with little chimp backpacks with leashes that look like tails!!!! How silly is that????????????


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
OK I am having a hard time getting into the seriousness of this matter. All I can think of whenever I hear about threads like this is the one time - ONE time! - we were down at the beach and had to cross U.S. 1 (8 lanes) with *two* 2 year olds and armfuls of beach gear and we tried these little harnesses/leash things. My kids thought it was hysterical and there we are crossing Route 1 in the crosswalk with my kids barking and straining on the leash pretending they were dogs. I was so mortified I was practically purple.







Never did use a leash again. But ya know, they made it across in one piece.


















OK sorry, back to leash bashing....

thats hilarious!


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I only read this last page because this is a tiresome discussion, but I have to reiterate what Motherintheboonies has mentioned. It seems like all leashes do is give kids a false sense of total security, when the real learning issue should be that running away from mommy/daddy/whomever is dangerous.

Leashes - I HATE saying that....he/she's not a dog!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Of those 8 children, 4 would most definitely still be alive had their parents used a harness/leash. They had wandered off at a hiking location, in a parking lot, one fell into a pond a mere 20 feet from his mom, she had turned to take a leaf out of her younger son's mouth, when she turned back around her 3 yr old was gone--they heard the splash, they'd already been looking for him for a couple minutes.

Why would you promote a leash? Why not promote the importance of safety and not wandering off?

I have brought my 3 yr old around the country, hiking and rock climbing and cave exploring. I made sure to equip her with the knowledge of how to stay safe and how to get to safety.

Billions of children are alive and well without the use of any leash.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

yep, and hundreds are dead--I love my child enough that I feel I can teach her things WHILE ensuring her safety--why is it that you believe it to be an all or nothing thing?? If I use a harness you assume I forgo teaching my child about safety?? That just makes no sense. When I train my dog I have him on a leash until I know that he will follow my instruction 100% of the time and I'm sorry but unless you have a magic wand, you cannot guarentee a toddler will follow instruction 100% of the time--unless of course you have already broken his spirit. I WANT my child to challenge rules, I also want her alive.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
yep, and hundreds are dead--I love my child enough that I feel I can teach her things WHILE ensuring her safety--why is it that you believe it to be an all or nothing thing?? If I use a harness you assume I forgo teaching my child about safety?? That just makes no sense. When I train my dog I have him on a leash until I know that he will follow my instruction 100% of the time and I'm sorry but unless you have a magic wand, you cannot guarentee a toddler will follow instruction 100% of the time--unless of course you have already broken his spirit. I WANT my child to challenge rules, I also want her alive.

I am not training dogs, I am raising human beings. I don't need to put a leash on my toddler before teaching her how to stay safe.


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## fromscatteredtribe (Mar 27, 2003)

i have never used a leash; never even my sling as one, like some folks do, but I have one child who is almost 6 and been talked to and talked to and talked to about stranger danger and safety...to the point where i told him a list of awful things strangers could do to him....and i still lose him ALL the time. I am nursing one of his brothers and turned for a second and it is five minutes before i find him. I make NO NO NO NO NO JUDGMENTS anymore on harnesses. We ALLLLLLL can lose a kid when they are determined to get away. AP equals CONFIDENT SECURE kids who KNOW that they CAN CLIMB to the top of the world and momma will still love them....they can push limits we did not even think of setting.....

or maybe i am a sucky parent

either is possible


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## kellid (Feb 21, 2006)

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with leashes. Although the name may carry a negative connotation, like someone said earlier, they are no more restraint than your hand or a shopping cart. Of course as we all have to remember this is my opinion that I am entitled to. As others are. Did you want to know more information because you wanted to hear people opinion, because you were thinking of getting one, or to bring up a heated topic?

I have a frisky little one and I am going to post a thread asking where to get one and I'm going to get one. He's strong and restraining him with my hands can sometimes lead to pain for him, trying to get away from my tender loving care.

I would also like to "keep close tabs on him" than attend his funeral. Every child is different and if you do not have a problem with a "wonderer", than you probably would not have looked at this thread to begin with.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sjkmaurice*
I only read this last page because this is a tiresome discussion, but I have to reiterate what Motherintheboonies has mentioned. It seems like all leashes do is give kids a false sense of total security, when the real learning issue should be that running away from mommy/daddy/whomever is dangerous.

I think that's an important lesson, but do you really think that it's just that easy to make a really young toddler comprehend? At 18 months old, you can tell a toddler that running away from mommy is dangerous, but 30 seconds later, her attention is somewhere else. They don't have impulse control at that age, and they shouldn't be expected to.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellid*

I have a frisky little one and I am going to post a thread asking where to get one and I'm going to get one. He's strong and restraining him with my hands can sometimes lead to pain for him, trying to get away from my tender loving care.

What do you think a leash will teach your 6 year old? A pp stated that her 2 year old knew leashes were for dogs and started barking like one when she put a leash on her. How is using a leash teaching your child not to wander? Why is it so hard for you to teach your son not to wander away from you? Is it that you do not know how to teach a child not to run away?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
I think that's an important lesson, but do you really think that it's just that easy to make a really young toddler comprehend? At 18 months old, you can tell a toddler that running away from mommy is dangerous, but 30 seconds later, her attention is somewhere else. They don't have impulse control at that age, and they shouldn't be expected to.

Again. My ONE year old comprehends what danger is and how to get to safety. Why do you not believe a toddler is intelligent enough to learn not to run away from you?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fromscatteredtribe*
I have one child who is almost 6 and been talked to and talked to and talked to about stranger danger and safety...to the point where i told him a list of awful things strangers could do to him....and i still lose him ALL the time.

I suggest reading Gavin Debecker's book "Protecting the Gift" as it has been proven that "stranger danger" is actually harmful to teach to your child. All you are doing is scaring him and not teaching him how to stay safe.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

okay i have some honest questions. i plan on reading some of the other threads too.

we are going to disney. should i get a leash? i'm not concerned about an ethical debate...but just wondering if it would be practical? my son will hold my hand, ride in the umbrella stroller, and be carried some. so i think i answered my own question i guess. just wondering what the difference is between holding hands and using a leash. i have seen kids pull away from the leash just like they would pull away from mom's hand. then they lay on the floor b/c they don't want to cooperate.

okay now for mommaintheboonies. seriously asking. how long did it take your children to learn not to run out in the street or run away in a store? how did you teach them? most people i know spank their kid when they run away which i would never do. but jason did run away from me once and I WANTED TO! i can't imagine with six kids?! anyway, so what did you do when they were in the process of learning not to run away assuming they didn't learn in a day?

also what is up with not using a highchair and how does that work?


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## fromscatteredtribe (Mar 27, 2003)

one of my children was like that, but all kids are different

good for you that your baby is smart, safe, and always attune to danger

where can i get one like that?

taught all my kids the same way, with several ways, etc etc

I am not IMPAIRED.

SHockingly, they are all different like we are

some would argue that IF they want to run away at costco, who is to say that MY direction is the way to go....maybe i should take out the other shoppers in my way, run with a babe in the sling and drag my other kids the direction the six year old goes....???

Why not?

I sure meet more parents whose toddlers and preschoolers run away than those with a one year old who will happily stop at the curb and wait for the walk light!!!!!!

good for you though









maybe we should CLIMB the displays WITH HIM!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Well said Scattered Tribe.
MITB, it was you who drew the correlation between training a dog to keep it safe and raising a child. I am raising my child to be a confident, alert little girl who challenges authority and believes she can do ANYTHING--regardless of whether I say it's safe or not--frankly I don't see how anyone can raise their child in an AP fashion and then turn around and say their child will obey the rules imposed by a parent 100% of the time--something doesn't mesh there.
Keeping my child safe from running off one thing I actually have control over, there are literally hundreds of other dangers I have no control over, I will take saftely measures I feel are reasonable for *MY* family. My dd loves her harness--she despises being worn--inspite of 9 different slings, an ergo and a trekker--it's just not her style, so we don't do that--the harness works for *HER* and THAT is what AP is all about--if it didn't work for her, we'd think of something else. Unlike yourself I feel the absolute most horrible thing to do is to attend a funeral of a child and I will do ANYTHING in my power to avoid that--both teaching my child and taking backup measures to ensure safety until my I am confident that my child has the impulse control and the mental maturity to make appropriate decisions for herself.
I do not have a gaggle of responsible adults who have no lives of their own that just sit around waiting for me to call for help. I for one, would like to seriously limit the number of tiny white caskets I have to see in life--maybe if half my family gets killed off in freak accidents that could never have been prevented I'll be more immune to it--or maybe then I'd have a bunch of adults that no longer have children of their own that I can call on to watch my child!!! (oh wait, that hardly seems responsible either....)


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Again. My ONE year old comprehends what danger is and how to get to safety. Why do you not believe a toddler is intelligent enough to learn not to run away from you?

I think that a one year old is intelligent enough. But like I said, they don't have the impulse control. It doesn't mean that they're not intelligent; quite the opposite, actually. They just want to explore and learn about their surroundings, and sometimes they get so caught up in it that they forget.

By 18 months old, my daughter would look at the stove and say "hot, no touch". A few weeks ago (she's 2.5 now), she threw her ball and it bounced up on top of the kitchen counter next to the stove. She knows that the stove is hot - she still even reminds us when we're near it not to burn ourselves - but at that moment, her ball was the #1 thing in her world, so when she reached up to the counter to get it, she touched the stove and burned her finger. Not because she was stupid and didn't know better, but because her impulse told her at that minute that she needed to get her toy, and that was her first priority.

But then again, why do I even need to explain toddlers and impulse control to you? I thought you were fairly well educated on the subject of child development.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

nichole- I would say skip it. i got a leash just to use at Disney (hence the other thread). we used it once and it didn't work so well as DS loved it so much I had to keep up running with him (as to not have to pull on it which I would NEVER Tug my kid on a leash) and he also started to trip/tangled up with people. it lasted all of about 5 min









MITB- how DO you teach a 2yold not to run away and be 100% sure they will listen to you? no, seriously I want to know because I always have to take a stroller everywhere we go otherwise for DS and he would like to walk on his own but he will dart away. I am going to go start a new thread on this right now..pretty please post there


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nichole*

just wondering what the difference is between holding hands and using a leash.

Holding hands is a physical connection to the child you love and cherish. A leash is just that, a leash.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nichole*
okay now for mommaintheboonies. seriously asking. how long did it take your children to learn not to run out in the street or run away in a store? how did you teach them? most people i know spank their kid when they run away which i would never do. but jason did run away from me once and I WANTED TO! i can't imagine with six kids?! anyway, so what did you do when they were in the process of learning not to run away assuming they didn't learn in a day?

First, I never placed them in a dangerous situation.
Parking lots- I pointed out the cars and let my child know that a car is not alive and cannot see them. They can see cars, so they need to watch out for the cars and ALWAYS hold a hand.
Busy public places with lots of people- same thing, they must always hold a hand. I don't give them any other choices when it comes to their safety.
Safety is taught, not danger. Every child is born with the ability to know when they are in danger.
I don't need to teach them what every little danger is, instead I teach them to know how to listen to their bodies and how to get to safety.
If they feel like running, I take them someplace safe for them to run. If we are in a place that running is not okay, I let them know. I never hit nor hurt my children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nichole*
also what is up with not using a highchair and how does that work?

They sit in my lap and eat until they are big enough to sit at the table.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nichole*
we are going to disney. should i get a leash? i'm not concerned about an ethical debate...but just wondering if it would be practical? my son will hold my hand, ride in the umbrella stroller, and be carried some. so i think i answered my own question i guess. just wondering what the difference is between holding hands and using a leash. i have seen kids pull away from the leash just like they would pull away from mom's hand. then they lay on the floor b/c they don't want to cooperate.

You probably won't need one for Disney, unless he doesn't like to hold hands. My DD is like that - if she doesn't want to hold hands, she pulls away and falls lays down on the floor.







The only time that we used one at Disney was for boarding the tram. I was always alone with DD, and had to carry a folded-up stroller, a backpack, a diaper bag, and whatever else we had with us, and keep an eye on DD. The harness kept her from running out in front of the trams while we were waiting, because she was always very excited to see them. Once we were off the tram and I had her stroller unfolded and stuff, the harness would come off and she was free to sit in the stroller or hold my hand as she pleased. She didn't mind her harness though, and she liked to play with it.

That's another thing about harnesses - if the child doesn't like it, it will not work. Kids are smart. They know how to get out of stuff that they don't like. They don't really work for forcing kids to walk somewhere that they don't want to walk, because you'd essentially have to drag them, which, uh, wouldn't really work or be safe. But they can be helpful, when used properly, especially for a kiddo who doesn't like to hold hands or sit in a sling or a stroller. I just don't really see anything to get worked up about. I think our kids will deal with worse injustices, and it's not worth it to sweat the small stuff.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Holding hands is a physical connection to the child you love and cherish. A leash is just that, a leash.

What if the child doesn't want to hold hands? Is forcing them to hold your hand a loving thing to do?


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
restraining a small child like a criminal to gain control just does not seem very ap

I'd call it restraining a child for his/her own safety. It's MY job as a mother to protect my child and keep him safe. If that means putting a leash on him, so be it. I could care less what anybody thinks to be honest. *I* know how I treat my child, and *I* know what a great relationship we have. People can pass judgement on me all they want. At least I have the peace of mind, in a huge crowd, that my child isn't going to get lost or snatched away from me...and he can't wander when I look away fro 2 seconds. My son went through a phase where he would BOLT any chance he had. So really...before you pass judgement on mommas that harness their children, understand that they LOVE their kids, and are doing what is in their best interest.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby*
What if the child doesn't want to hold hands? Is forcing them to hold your hand a loving thing to do?

yeah I want to know too as this is what I have a hard time with. DS doesn't WANT to hold my hand. he will throw a screaming fit and fall to the ground. if I then try to carry him and he is still upset over holding hands he will sometime hit me,headbutt me, kick me...you get the idea.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
yep, and hundreds are dead--I love my child enough that I feel I can teach her things WHILE ensuring her safety--why is it that you believe it to be an all or nothing thing?? If I use a harness you assume I forgo teaching my child about safety?? That just makes no sense. When I train my dog I have him on a leash until I know that he will follow my instruction 100% of the time and I'm sorry but unless you have a magic wand, you cannot guarentee a toddler will follow instruction 100% of the time--unless of course you have already broken his spirit. I WANT my child to challenge rules, I also want her alive.

i am sorry for that mama how tragic,what a nightmare. But that still does not convince me to get a leash for my child. a little common sense goes along way! I would never bring more kids than I could keep an eye on, on a camping/hiking trip-thats just not very smart.

*you are teaching your child that you do not trust them and they are not trustworthy


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

April, you're supposed to call in that tribe of adults that are waiting to help you and they can take the child to the park while you do groceries...or pee.

Do the responsible adults just sit in bleachers waiting to be called up to play, or do they play with other less important families waiting to be chosen for the big leagues????


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I subscribe to attachment parenting and natural family living. Hmmm,I never said I didn't judge. we all do it is a natural human trait. I can't help it, when I see a child in a leash i think of a dog,donkey, horse whatever. or like a criminal having to be controled and chained up. I don't see how that is loving, ...putting them on a level with animals & criminals???what does that do to their psyche? their self esteem? their sense of trust and accomplishment? slings,carriers,hand holding this is all done out of love. human touch and closeness,bonding. it is done the world over. I don't see in other cultures people putting leashes on their children. it just seems lazy. My opinion thats all,it may be judgmental but so what







.I just really want to see how many mamas who subscribe to ap/nfl also justify the leash.

WOW...who are you to say that slinging and carriers are used with love, and leashes aren't.....what, do you think they are used with hatred? Screwy logic at best!!


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kellid*
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with leashes. Although the name may carry a negative connotation, like someone said earlier, they are no more restraint than your hand or a shopping cart. Of course as we all have to remember this is my opinion that I am entitled to. As others are. Did you want to know more information because you wanted to hear people opinion, because you were thinking of getting one, or to bring up a heated topic?

I have a frisky little one and I am going to post a thread asking where to get one and I'm going to get one. He's strong and restraining him with my hands can sometimes lead to pain for him, trying to get away from my tender loving care.

I would also like to "keep close tabs on him" than attend his funeral. Every child is different and if you do not have a problem with a "wonderer", than you probably would not have looked at this thread to begin with.

*I seriously wanted to know how intelligent thoughtful,mamas rationalize the use of leashes.

I feel that it is rude to answer a thread when obviously you and others haven't read through the entire thread. I have already answered many questions being repeated by others.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Actually Chandi, this was a family wedding--should they have left one of the children home so the other one could be watched properly. Have you NEVER looked away from your child for even 5 seconds--ever, ever, ever?? Can you honestly say that your eyes have never been taken off ANY of your children, can you honestly say that both you and your partner have NEVER had both your attentions focused on ONE child, leaving another briefly unwatched, this has NEVER, EVER happened????


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
*I seriously wanted to know how intelligent thoughtful,mamas rationalize the use of leashes.

I feel that it is rude to answer a thread when obviously you and others haven't read through the entire thread. I have already answered many questions being repeated by others.

I'm still waiting for an answer to post #28.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
i am sorry for that mama how tragic,what a nightmare. But that still does not convince me to get a leash for my child. a little common sense goes along way! I would never bring more kids than I could keep an eye on, on a camping/hiking trip-thats just not very smart.

*you are teaching your child that you do not trust them and they are not trustworthy

See there's the problem, I didn't realize we were supposed to convince you to go get one....I thought you actually wanted peoples thoughts and opinions and experiences to get a better idea how one who is AP rationalizes using a safety device for her children.
Me I rationalize it that if it works for my child and my child is happy, that a happy child wearing a chimp backpack is better than a dead child any day of the week.

If you want me to convince you, sorry, not my job. You asked for my thoughts.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frenchie*
WOW...who are you to say that slinging and carriers are used with love, and leashes aren't.....what, do you think they are used with hatred? Screwy logic at best!!

I am not saying you don't love your child, it just seems that you are not using all of your options, love is taking the time to teach rather than giving up on him and put him on a leash.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Actually Chandi, this was a family wedding--should they have left one of the children home so the other one could be watched properly. Have you NEVER looked away from your child for even 5 seconds--ever, ever, ever?? Can you honestly say that your eyes have never been taken off ANY of your children, can you honestly say that both you and your partner have NEVER had both your attentions focused on ONE child, leaving another briefly unwatched, this has NEVER, EVER happened????

We always make sure they are being watched,yes.I don't see why this is so diffucult to understand.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Quote:

Even one dirty look from a stranger will destroy that precious spirit.
I'm sure many of you mom's who are so against leashes have been that stranger giving the disapproving look to a mom and child using a leash and "destroying that spirit." What an NFL way to treat others.

I see my son's backpack as very AP. We use it occassionally, usually when we are going somewhere that is crowded. It is not a lazy way to parent, we are not dehumanizing him, we do not use it as a way to not pay attention to him. He is learning what is safe and what is not. We always tell him to hold our hands in the parking lot until we reach the store, I don't trust the leash to stop him if he decides to run in the parking lot. Once inside he is free to explore and we keep up with him, he sets the pace.

He is very much a free spirit. He started walking when he was 9 months old. He was in no way ready for free rein of a store at 12 months old and hated his sling, stollers and shopping carts. Instead of forcing him to "love" his sling (whoever said it took just a couple of days to teach their child to "love" his/her sling sounded so much to me like "it only took two nights of CIO for them to learn to sleep on their own") we offered him the backpack and he likes it, he's never cried about it and we didn't have to put it on him for five minutes at a stretch to help him learn to love it.

We've never received one ugly look when using it. We have been asked a number of times where to get one.

If you see me in a store and give me an ugly look don't be surpirsed when I smile back. See, I know that your 30 second opinion of me means nothing. My family knows that our son is well loved, well taken care of, has all needs met, we make the sacrifices for him, etc. I also know that my son's spirit will not be destroyed because a stranger gives him a *tsk, tsk*.

One thing I plan on teaching Charlie is not to make rash judgements of others. Until he has walked a mile in their shoes... He will learn compassion, understanding and tolerance. As long as he has those traits he can leash his child until the cows come home.


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
See there's the problem, I didn't realize we were supposed to convince you to go get one....I thought you actually wanted peoples thoughts and opinions and experiences to get a better idea how one who is AP rationalizes using a safety device for her children.
Me I rationalize it that if it works for my child and my child is happy, that a happy child wearing a chimp backpack is better than a dead child any day of the week.

If you want me to convince you, sorry, not my job. You asked for my thoughts.

I never said it was your job to convince me,I just said 'I wasn't convinced'.
I like how you use the term 'safety device' as opposed to leash or harness.


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## momsincmay (Mar 11, 2006)

Too Many Cases of Child Wandering W/O Supervision in my neighborhood. I think if the setting is small or intimate I wouldnt use it but large settings,for instance ,amusement parks, airports and malls, I can definitely see why you'd invest in one. I rather know my child will always be within 8 feet of me at all times than have to worry about her running off, playing hide and seek or whatever and even for a moment losing sight of where she could be, over how it looks and not using one. I can't say whether or not I'll use one but I have no problem with ppl who do.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Kids don't have the emotional baggage adults do.

Many kids are HAPPY with a harness. They don't care about donkeys, about slavery, or about how dehumanized they are. They're thinking "Hey cool! What a great solution. I hate holding hands/being in a sling/staying home all the time."

What was that someone said about apron strings? Off to read that link.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, something doesnt' make sense to me. Why is it that a parent using a harness is giving up on teaching their child safety???? The leash is a bridge, a safety measure until they are mature enough to have impulse control enough to avoid blatently dangerous surroundings on their own, until they the thought of chasing a ball or a kitten across a road would never enter their mind, until a pond over the hill would not be tempting even after mommy said it was dangerous. Sort of like using a carseat until they are big enough to ride safely in a seatbelt. I don't get this assumption that using a parenting *TOOL* makes you a lazy parent who doesn't love their child enough to take the time to teach them things. Does using a stroller mean you've given up on the child walking? Does co-sleeping mean you've given up on the child sleeping alone? Does using a diaper mean you've given up on toilet training?????? Of course not, it means you are using tools in your parenting bag of tricks to make life safe and a bit easier on both parent and child. My child HATES holding my hand--she sees it as restraint, she also sees carrying as restraint, and slings, well I may as well have duct taped her to the floor. She lives on 100 acres, so we don't get opportunities every day to teach her of the dangers of the world--we do get opportunities to teach her a love of running and running until you fall to the ground exhausted--unfortunately doing that in a city or a parking lot could cause serious harm to her. I have not given up on ANYTHING, I am doing all that is in my power to ensure her safety while teaching her about life.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I am not saying you don't love your child, it just seems that you are not using all of your options, love is taking the time to teach rather than giving up on him and put him on a leash.

It's presumtuous of you to say that a parent has given up on their child because they use a leash. Or that they haven't used all of their resources. I have taken child developement classes, read and researched all that I could get my hands before and after having my son. NOTHING compares to trhe actual hands on parenting. I don't care if you have a PhD in parenting, until you parent a child, all of that education means nothing...and until you parent MY child...all of your education means NOTHING!!!!!
That said, my son wore the harness once....didn't like it, therefore he complied with us, and stayed next to us. We have never had the eason to use it again....but I would never pass judgement on another parent who did use one.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ummm, why should I not use the term safety device--that's exactly the way I see it, I often frequently refer to a baby bucket as a safety device--not a seat, cause used as a seat in the house or out at a restaurant is NOT the way it was designed to be used and is INAPPROPRIATE use of it--it is meant and would be properly used as a safety device--NOT as a baby sitter--just like my "leash and harness" would be inappropriatly used if I used it to ignore my child or give up on teaching her proper safety techniques.

I'd love to stay and debate further, but my child needs me--and I hate ignoring her while I sit on this computer debating with someone who has no desire to understand anyone else's point of view--only to tell them how she's such an amazing parent that she is always watching her children. With 3 I find it HARD to believe that they have NEVER gone off in different directions--how many parents do you have-is there an adult assigned to watch each of them at all times. Are your eyes on them all while you read this post?????


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheshire*
I'm sure many of you mom's who are so against leashes have been that stranger giving the disapproving look to a mom and child using a leash and "destroying that spirit." What an NFL way to treat others.

I see my son's backpack as very AP. We use it occassionally, usually when we are going somewhere that is crowded. It is not a lazy way to parent, we are not dehumanizing him, we do not use it as a way to not pay attention to him. He is learning what is safe and what is not. We always tell him to hold our hands in the parking lot until we reach the store, I don't trust the leash to stop him if he decides to run in the parking lot. Once inside he is free to explore and we keep up with him, he sets the pace.

He is very much a free spirit. He started walking when he was 9 months old. He was in no way ready for free rein of a store at 12 months old and hated his sling, stollers and shopping carts. Instead of forcing him to "love" his sling (whoever said it took just a couple of days to teach their child to "love" his/her sling sounded so much to me like "it only took two nights of CIO for them to learn to sleep on their own") we offered him the backpack and he likes it, he's never cried about it and we didn't have to put it on him for five minutes at a stretch to help him learn to love it.

We've never received one ugly look when using it. We have been asked a number of times where to get one.

If you see me in a store and give me an ugly look don't be surpirsed when I smile back. See, I know that your 30 second opinion of me means nothing. My family knows that our son is well loved, well taken care of, has all needs met, we make the sacrifices for him, etc. I also know that my son's spirit will not be destroyed because a stranger gives him a *tsk, tsk*.

One thing I plan on teaching Charlie is not to make rash judgements of others. Until he has walked a mile in their shoes... He will learn compassion, understanding and tolerance. As long as he has those traits he can leash his child until the cows come home.

With that said I will try to keep an open mind when I see leashes on children.I would never give a 'look' to a child, I know that it is not the childs fault of course but the common sense lacking parent. So my shock has turned to pity.








the reason i started this thread was to try to understand, but I still don't. It bothers me when mamas looking for advice on how to get their little ones to stop running away and mamas chiming in with the leash as the answer. How about some other good,advice first?? mitb and I have given lots of ideas that could be tried first. as well as there are numerous books out there with wonderful advice.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Can you honestly say that your eyes have never been taken off ANY of your children, can you honestly say that both you and your partner have NEVER had both your attentions focused on ONE child, leaving another briefly unwatched, this has NEVER, EVER happened????









*shakes head in disbelief*
What good is watching your child every moment? I could easily sit and watch my kids run into the street and get hit by a car.

Teaching a child how to stay safe is more than just keeping your eyes on them at all times.

FWIW, I let my kids run around the powwow grounds without me. I trust them and know they will get to safety if they should ever be in danger.
They are not afraid of strangers. They do know how to get help from an adult they do not know.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That would be dangerous. I never let my children run wild. My 1 year old is intelligent enough to know what danger is.









I love my children and would rather they held my hand than put a leash on them and degrade them.

Why have you not taught her what safety is and what danger is?

Well lets see I live on a military installation where you can't go more then 20mi and hour so its not really dangerous. I do not belive a 19M old understands danger no matter how smart your one year old is. She understands natural danger like the stove is hot because she touched it. So would you like me to let her get hit by a car so she learns? How else shall I teach what danger is. I always hold her hand when we walk, when I let her walk alone she will walk into the street even if i pulled her away and said "Kaya the street isnt safe" she would smile at me and guess what she would do it again. Okay well ill ask her next time if she feels degraded im sure she will just smile at me. There is a difference in adults and children wearing harness its a learned emotion to feel embarressed to be in one. I really do not get this reasoning about asking your child before you do anything seriously they are children not adults. My kid has no choice to be put in a car seat, stroller or shopping cart.

One last thing yes ive read this long and drawn out post if you actually read further up this wasnt my first post.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Me I rationalize it that if it works for my child and my child is happy, that a happy child wearing a chimp backpack is better than a dead child any day of the week.

I take my responsiblity as a parent more serious than just not ending up with a dead child.
That child will grow to be an adult. I don't want my adult to think it is okay to dehumanize small children.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

to this thread! OMG. What some people will say and think!

I use a leash it connects on my sons wrist. I hold his hand. When I go to pay for something at the grocery store, I let go of his hand. The leash protects him from wandering away and getting into things. If this is BAD parenting then I WILL be that bad parent! I could care less if someone gives me a bad look, at the end of the day , I know my child is safe. And an accident CANNOT occur at all.








cheshire


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Ummm, why should I not use the term safety device--that's exactly the way I see it, I often frequently refer to a baby bucket as a safety device--not a seat, cause used as a seat in the house or out at a restaurant is NOT the way it was designed to be used and is INAPPROPRIATE use of it--it is meant and would be properly used as a safety device--NOT as a baby sitter--just like my "leash and harness" would be inappropriatly used if I used it to ignore my child or give up on teaching her proper safety techniques.

I'd love to stay and debate further, but my child needs me--and I hate ignoring her while I sit on this computer debating with someone who has no desire to understand anyone else's point of view--only to tell them how she's such an amazing parent that she is always watching her children. With 3 I find it HARD to believe that they have NEVER gone off in different directions--how many parents do you have-is there an adult assigned to watch each of them at all times. Are your eyes on them all while you read this post?????

my baby is usually in the sling when we go out and my 3 year old holds my hand , my 11 year old can take of herself very well. If we are going out for long periods of time or to a busy place I wouldn't dare to go alone,my dh would come or my niece or a friend.
While I am on the computer, My babe is napping and my 3 year old is sitting next to me playing with her toys on the floor.
I do have to go now though- she wants some one on one time with me. thanks for this information. I will *try* harder to keep an open mind but honestly it is very diffucult given the info that I have got from you all.


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## MomToKandE (Mar 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fromscatteredtribe*
one of my children was like that, but all kids are different

Thank you!!! This is the first post I've seen that has acknowledged that not every child will respond in the same way. My dd was a very high needs, spirited child. On a few occasions we used a leash with her She liked it because it gave her the freedom she wanted, I liked it because it kept her safe.

My ds is 2 and I have never felt like I needed to use the leash with him. Same family, same parenting, different child with a very different personality. He's happy to stay in the sling or hold my hand.

I respect and respond differently to each of my children's needs because they are different people.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FEDUP*
The leash protects him from wandering away and getting into things.

A leash cannot replace a responsible parent.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Kids don't have the emotional baggage adults do.

Many kids are HAPPY with a harness. They don't care about donkeys, about slavery, or about how dehumanized they are. They're thinking "Hey cool! What a great solution. I hate holding hands/being in a sling/staying home all the time."

What was that someone said about apron strings? Off to read that link.









:


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Uh mama in the boonies..I suppose you have maybe 2 or perhaps THREE sets of eyes so that when you are concentrating on paying for something, or swiping a credit card through and putting in your pin number that you can still see your small child and know she is perfect enough to stay still beside you no matter what.????????? HUMPH. I suppose you do. Or perhaps you are the upmost in perfection as a parent and that your child will always be the same like a robot, staying by your side like a trained animal. tsk tsk


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamachandi*
I am not saying you don't love your child, it just seems that you are not using all of your options, love is taking the time to teach rather than giving up on him and put him on a leash.

Is it just me, or am I understanding this wrong.

"I'm not saying you don't love your children, but if you put your child on a leash, that's not love?"

HUH?

--Olive


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FEDUP*
Uh mama in the boonies..I suppose you have maybe 2 or perhaps THREE sets of eyes so that when you are concentrating on paying for something, or swiping a credit card through and putting in your pin number that you can still see your small child and know she is perfect enough to stay still beside you no matter what.????????? HUMPH. I suppose you do. Or perhaps you are the upmost in perfection as a parent and that your child will always be the same like a robot, *staying by your side like a trained animal*. tsk tsk

I'd rather train my child than put a leash on them. At least then my child knows I love them enough to teach them, not just slap a leash on them.

I don't need to watch my kids like a hawk because I have taught/trained them well.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Originally Posted by mamachandi
I am not saying you don't love your child, it just seems that you are not using all of your options, love is taking the time to teach rather than giving up on him and put him on a leash.
no love is accepting that your child may need protecting if he is not feeling up to *behaving* that day


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
Is it just me, or am I understanding this wrong.

"I'm not saying you don't love your children, but if you put your child on a leash, that's not love?"

HUH?

--Olive

Please, explain to us how it is loving and caring to use a leash rather than teach your child to stay safe?


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Quote:

A leash cannot replace a responsible parent.
*MamaInTheBoonies*, I'm not sure why you are ignoring all the posts that state that they DO NOT use the leash instead of being a responsible parent. No one here is saying, "Yes I use they leash and I totally ignore my duty as a parent to keep my kids safe when I use it." No, just no. People are merely sharing experiances in which they found a leash useful, no one is using it if their children don't like it, in fact people are only using it if their kids want too! No one is trying to say that everyone should use a leash, all children are different. Its merely a tool that some people use. And lets cut the slavery talk okay? Comparing a happy, exploring child to an African American slaves is just insulting.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

I'd rather train my child than put a leash on them. At least then my child knows I love them enough to teach them, not just slap a leash on them.

I don't need to watch my kids like a hawk because I have taught/trained them well.
even the most trained child has a side to them that wants freedom

And it is not very nice to suggest mothers that use leashes dont love their children. We could say the same about mothers who dont use them. But we are not.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FEDUP*

no love is accepting that your child may need protecting if he is not feeling up to *behaving* that day

So, now a leash is used for controlling a child's behavior?

I never control my child's behavior. I do teach my children what is acceptable behavior.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

MamaInTheBoonies, I'm not sure why you are ignoring all the posts that state that they DO NOT use the leash instead of being a responsible parent. No one here is saying, "Yes I use they leash and I totally ignore my duty as a parent to keep my kids safe when I use it." No, just no. People are merely sharing experiances in which they found a leash useful, no one is using it if their children don't like it, in fact people are only using it if their kids want too! No one is trying to say that everyone should use a leash, all children are different. Its merely a tool that some people use. And lets cut the slavery talk okay? Comparing a happy, exploring child to an African American slaves is just insulting.








:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FEDUP*
And it is not very nice to suggest mothers that use leashes dont love their children. We could say the same about mothers who dont use them. But we are not.

How could you say the same? WE are treating our children as human beings, not dogs or less than human. We do not treat them as if they are too dumb to learn how to stay close to mom and not run into a busy street.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Quote:

So, now a leash is used for controlling a child's behavior?

I never control my child's behavior. I do teach my children what is acceptable behavior.
huh?

I am sorry but your children are not perfect and may feel like one day darting out in the street it might just be that one day. Its not about controlling . lol


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

This is where the search engine comes in handy. We don't need to have another one of these horribly rude and disgusting threads again. All you are doing is being downright ugly towards other members of this board. This topic has been done over and over again with the same posters (ie: MITB) coming in to show what wonderful parents they are and how crappy the rest of us are that don't have a whole tribe waiting to watch our children.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean*
*MamaInTheBoonies*, I'm not sure why you are ignoring all the posts that state that they DO NOT use the leash instead of being a responsible parent. No one here is saying, "Yes I use they leash and I totally ignore my duty as a parent to keep my kids safe when I use it." No, just no. People are merely sharing experiances in which they found a leash useful, no one is using it if their children don't like it, in fact people are only using it if their kids want too! No one is trying to say that everyone should use a leash, all children are different. Its merely a tool that some people use. And lets cut the slavery talk okay? Comparing a happy, exploring child to an African American slaves is just insulting.

Using a leash on a small child is dehumanizing, degrading, and wrong. It allows the parent to abdicate their responsibility to their child.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Did you even read the rest of my post? At all?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

hey I don't think that is MITB intention at all







I think she may come across a little blunt at times, but really just trying to get you to think.

but I guess I can still agree to disagree on this one.

I used to hate seeing kids on leashes. now I understand EXACTLY why people do it. if that's what I needed to learn, then so be it. the leash has always been MY issue not my child's anyway


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*







This is where the search engine comes in handy. We don't need to have another one of these horribly rude and disgusting threads again. All you are doing is being downright ugly towards other members of this board. This topic has been done over and over again with the same posters (ie: MITB) coming in to show what wonderful parents they are and how crappy the rest of us are that don't have a whole tribe waiting to watch our children.









What does having a tribe of people to watch your kids have anything to do with being a responsible parent and teaching your child how to stay safe?
If you are unable to teach your child basic safety, then ask someone else to teach your child. That would be more loving than using a leash.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

I'm waiting for the mythical post in which someone says that they are not teaching their child safety. I haven't seen it in this thread. Using a leash and teaching safetly are not mutually exclusive things.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean*







Did you even read the rest of my post? At all?

Yes, I did and I don't buy for a second that a parent will know their child is happy with a leash, but does not know how to teach their child how to stay safe.

I don't care if the kid has a smile on their face, a leash on a small child is still dehumanizing them. It is making them less than human!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean*
I'm waiting for the mythical post in which someone says that they are not teaching their child safety. I haven't seen it in this thread. Using a leash and teaching safetly are not mutually exclusive things.









I have read several posts about children who have run away from their parents and found themselves dead!


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, I did and I don't buy for a second that a parent will know their child is happy with a leash, but does not know how to teach their child how to stay safe.

I don't care if the kid has a smile on their face, a leash on a small child is still dehumanizing them. It is making them less than human!

but how? especially if you are not forcing them to wear it if they hate it? how is that dehuminizing them? but a sling is not? I see no difference really still am not bying that.

I do understand what you are saying to a point. I just don't agree on some of your reasoning









and I do have NO clue how to get my DS not to run away for me. but will try some of your suggestions from the other thread.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*

I used to hate seeing kids on leashes.

I still hate seeing children on leashes. I still hate seeing children dehumanized. I have not acclimated myself to the sight and made peace with the insanity of treating a small child like a dog. I never will.
using a leash on a child is wrong!


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

I meant posters here who have talked about using a leash. I used the leash AND taught my DD's safety measures. Will wonders never cease?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I still hate seeing children on leashes. I still hate seeing children dehumanized. I have not acclimated myself to the sight and made peace with the insanity of treating a small child like a dog. I never will.
using a leash on a child is wrong!

nope, that's just your opinion.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*
how is that dehuminizing them?

A pp said that her 2 yr old associated the leash with a dog. I am sure a 3 or 4 yr old will do the same. How is it NOT dehumanizing to use a leash on a small child?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

you still have not explained WHY it's dehumanizing.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean*
I meant posters here who have talked about using a leash. I used the leash AND taught my DD's safety measures. Will wonders never cease?

I have six children and taught them saftey and NEVER used a leash. Will wonders never cease?


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Good for both of us then!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*
you still have not explained WHY it's dehumanizing.

A human child is an intelligent being. When you put a leash on them you are telling your child they are unable to use their intelligence to stay safe. You are treating your child like a dog and not a human being.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I don't walk our dogs cause we live in the country and there's no need. I don't think DS knows exactly what a leash is for anyway. so that is still dehuminizing him?

just because you see it as dehuminizing doesn't make it so.

ok so for the sake of debate. what about seat belts?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
A human child is an intelligent being. When you put a leash on them you are telling your child they are unable to use their intelligence to stay safe. You are treating your child like a dog and not a human being.

no I still don't agree. I know people who treat their dogs like humans so I don't buy into the leash equates dog treatment. especially as I don't use a leash on my dogs. DS doesn't know that dogs go on leashes (yet) I don't think he will equate wearing his owen the pig fanny pack to a dog leash anyway


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

Oh my GOD MITB's....

If My kids were any closer in age than they will be, I would *TOTALLY* use a leash in parking lots/busy road scenarios/crowded places, If I wasn't using a stroller. My almost 2 year old is *JUST* now beginning to be capable to have impulse control a little tiny bit. You can explain/teach/show all you want but a walking toddler who is exploring the universe and has no impulse control can *NOT* comprehend or understand what will happen to her if she runs out into the street. If you have a small new baby, are hugely preggo (like myself), or just not that fast, those wee little legs can go running faster than one can act sometimes. I would much rather have my child tethered and alive than free spirited and dead.

Would it be any different to you if you were slinging a child this age/size? Are strollers the spawn of satan and dehumanizing too?

I know I am saying nothing new here...I am just in awe of your ability to say that every mama who uses leashes is dehumanizing her kids.

If you hate leashes so much, don't use em!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*
I don't walk our dogs cause we live in the country and there's no need. I don't think DS knows exactly what a leash is for anyway. so that is still dehuminizing him?

just because you see it as dehuminizing doesn't make it so.

ok so for the sake of debate. what about seat belts?

Are you serious? Your child will eventually see a dog on a leash and will KNOW!

Your child watches mom and dad wear their seatbelt, I hope. Dogs can wear seat belts, too. They are for safety while in a moving vehicle.

Leashes are for controlling animals, not children.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Please, explain to us how it is loving and caring to use a leash rather than teach your child to stay safe?

First of all, the quote I included was to intended to question the original statement that used logic like, "I'm not saying the sky is blue, but if you look at it, the sky is blue."

But that said, I do believe that it CAN BE loving and caring to use a leash WHILE AT THE SAME TIME teaching a child to stay safe. You're choosing to ignore that people can do both at the same time just so that you can keep arguing the same things you have argued on several other threads on this topic.

I'll just say that I would so much rather have my child see another parent using a leash or harness in a responsible way than I would ever want him to see another parent flinging judgments and rudeness at others.

I do believe that it is possible to teach a child safety through consistent modeling. I'm just not sure that those of you who rush to conclusions about others' parenting are realizing the negative things YOU might be modeling to your children.

You seem to place the highest priority on making sure your children never feel constrained or demeaned. I understand that. But I place a higher priority on teaching my child kindness and compassion.

--Olive


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*
no I still don't agree. I know people who treat their dogs like humans so I don't buy into the leash equates dog treatment. especially as I don't use a leash on my dogs. DS doesn't know that dogs go on leashes (yet) I don't think he will equate wearing his owen the pig fanny pack to a dog leash anyway

















I never used a leash on my dogs, either. They were properly trained and I had no need for them. I never took them to parks where it was a law to wear a leash, neither.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I'd rather train my child than put a leash on them. At least then my child knows I love them enough to teach them, not just slap a leash on them.

I don't need to watch my kids like a hawk because I have taught/trained them well.









As so many moms have said in previous posts they don't just "slap" the leash on them.

It's great that your kids listen to every piece of "training" you give them. That they always listen and aren't prone to making decisions that are detrimental to their well being just because they are kids and don't have the decision-making capabilities to make the best choices, always.

Just because you "train" your kids one way (which you haven't explained yet how you trained your kids to not run in stores) doesn't mean that a leash can't be useful and loving for other parents.

I guess because you've set yourself on the moral highground on this one it is rubbing many the wrong way.

Honestly, I just pray that you never have to eat your words at your children's expense.

Mamachandi, if someone asks me about the leash I'm more than happy to explain that for us it works great. I'm very much one that would never assume just because it works for me it's going to work for you. Don't feel pity for my son. Don't waste your energy. If instead you'd follow us around the store you'd see that he's peachy, happy, enjoying interacting with others and his parents. He feels secure and knows that we are there for him. Eventually, as he learns boundaries the leash will be gone. It's a stepping stone for us to help him reach independence.

I don't need a research study to tell me if something is harmful to my child. I let him tell me and when he screams and cries whenever I try and put him in a shopping cart, carry him or put him in a sling that tells me it is more traumatic for him then letting him wear his backpack. Trust me, I'm not perfect as a parent and he's going to have issues from his childhood he will deal with as an adult, as all human beings do. Using a leash when he's a toddler is not one of them.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
You seem to place the highest priority on making sure your children never feel constrained or demeaned. I understand that. But I place a higher priority on teaching my child kindness and compassion.

--Olive

Are you saying that I cannot teach my children how to love and be loved without dehumanizing them? because I have! I have never had to dehumanize nor degrade my child in order to teach them compassion. Compassion is not treating a small child like a dog.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

I think we need a beating a dead horse icon....








MITB...we get your point. You are better than everyone in the world who has ever used a leash in any way shape or form with their child


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritabeth*
Would it be any different to you if you were slinging a child this age/size? Are strollers the spawn of satan and dehumanizing too?


Strollers and slings were specifically made for children, not dogs. A leash is used on dogs. It should never be used on a small child.

FWIW, I don't believe in satan.

How can you say you love your child and then put a leash on them and treat them like a common dog?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Are you serious? Your child will eventually see a dog on a leash and will KNOW!

Your child watches mom and dad wear their seatbelt, I hope. Dogs can wear seat belts, too. They are for safety while in a moving vehicle.

Leashes are for controlling animals, not children.

no I don't think leashes used on children are for control. it IS ACTUALLY about giving a child more FREEDOM.

also how is the seat belt/stroller/sling not controlling them any way as a leash if it is keeping them safe? it's the same argument. you just are taking offense that a leash is for dogs. assuming they are used as control. ours isn't even a LEASH it's a FANNY PACK with a tether type cord attached to another fanny pack.. it does not go around his neck and I am not in control of his movements per say when he is wearing it (he's more in control actually) just that he won't run away!

I definitly don't treat my kid like a dog! but if you think I do that's fine with me. just know I will still think you are wrong.

anyway it's a personal beleif to say leashes are wrong for kids. many don't feel that's true and MANY AP/NFL parents do use them. not for control though for SAFETY.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
What does having a tribe of people to watch your kids have anything to do with being a responsible parent and teaching your child how to stay safe?
If you are unable to teach your child basic safety, then ask someone else to teach your child. That would be more loving than using a leash.

Small children do not have very good impulse control. You can teach them safety, but they lack the ability to think before they do things. Maybe your children are absolute angels and oh so smart, unlike the rest of the worlds children. My daughter knows basic safety. She knows to hold my hand. However, there are times where she sees something and lacks the impulse to slowly walk to it, she just bolts.

I brought up the tribe thing because in every one of these threads you always say "leave your child with someone. use your community. let others help watch your child. don't force your child to go on trips, leave them with someone" etc.... Not everyone HAS someone to leave their child with. I don't think you get that. Not everyone is lucky as you to have people that are safe enough to leave their children with.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Are you saying that I cannot teach my children how to love and be loved without dehumanizing them? because I have! I have never had to dehumanize nor degrade my child in order to teach them compassion. Compassion is not treating a small child like a dog.

No, I'm saying that your treatment of others in this thread does not indicate
compassion and kindness to others, in my opinion. You have said several things that I find both dehumanizing and degrading.

--Olive


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *saritabeth*









I think we need a beating a dead horse icon....








MITB...we get your point. You are better than everyone in the world who has ever used a leash in any way shape or form with their child









Yes, I am better and so is every mother who has never used a leash on her child.

What kind of parent treats their small child like a dog in the first place?


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Yes..the great harness debate of 2006....there was one in 2005 I think.









Keeping your kids healthy is a parents #1 priority.

My best friends dad was in a wheelchair due to poiloi and her mother had bone problems in her feet. They harnessed their son because neigther of them could run if he ran into traffic.

I am sure he appreciates being alive at this point and he also does not care that he was harnessed...he understands his parents loved him and were doing the best they could.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
No, I'm saying that your treatment of others in this thread does not indicate
compassion and kindness to others, in my opinion. You have said several things that I find both dehumanizing and degrading.

--Olive

It's dehumanizing and degrading to tell parents to stop treating their children like dogs?


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama*
place - since i understand the point is to not have to watch your child all the time.

I don't have one but consider it with this particular toddler (who is much more of a bolter than the older two). For me, it's not the point at all, AM. The point for me would be to give the toddler MORE freedom of movement than if he had to hold my hand or be in a stroller. Further, it could free up one of MY hands for other things.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newcastlemama*







Yes..the great harness debate of 2006....there was one in 2005 I think.









Keeping your kids healthy is a parents #1 priority.

My best friends dad was in a wheelchair due to poiloi and her mother had bone problems in her feet. They harnessed their son because neigther of them could run if he ran into traffic.

I am sure he appreciates being alive at this point and he also does not care that he was harnessed...he understands his parents loved him and were doing the best they could.

What is the excuse for all of these able-bodied parents, then?


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

*MamaInTheBoonies* said:

Quote:

Yes, I am better and so is every mother who has never used a leash on her child.
Well at least we got that cleared up.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PancakeGoddess*
I don't have one but consider it with this particular toddler (who is much more of a bolter than the older two). For me, it's not the point at all, AM. The point for me would be to give the toddler MORE freedom of movement than if he had to hold my hand or be in a stroller. Further, it could free up one of MY hands for other things.

If you truly cared about giving your child MORE freedom, then take them someplace safe!


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, I am better and so is every mother who has never used a leash on her child.

What kind of parent treats their small child like a dog in the first place?

Thank you for so eloquently demonstrating my point!

--Olive


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, I am better and so is every mother who has never used a leash on her child.

What kind of parent treats their small child like a dog in the first place?
















I cannot believe you said that/believe that !







:


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
Small children do not have very good impulse control. You can teach them safety, but they lack the ability to think before they do things.

I am sorry you can't trust your child.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
I brought up the tribe thing because in every one of these threads you always say "leave your child with someone. use your community. let others help watch your child. don't force your child to go on trips, leave them with someone" etc.... Not everyone HAS someone to leave their child with. I don't think you get that. Not everyone is lucky as you to have people that are safe enough to leave their children with.

If you CHOOSE not to have someone to help you, that is on your head. If you would rather use a leash and treat your child like a dog, rather than seek help, that is also on YOUR head.


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## newcastlemama (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
What is the excuse for all of these able-bodied parents, then?

They are doing the best they can too..


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive*
Thank you for so eloquently demonstrating my point!

--Olive

You are welcome!

I will say it again, even. It is WRONG to treat a human being like a dog!!!

It is WRONG!!!


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

I used to sit on my high horse and judge moms who used these devices as lazy and too self centered to teach their children.... and then I had my second child and I began to understand that there are sooooo many situations that I just didn't understand. Here is a little story and it is a little funny since no one was hurt:

Less than a week after my son was born I had to run to the post office to send out some packages (for my business.... couldn't stop sending orders or take a full maternity leave due to our finances). This would be my first outing with both kids alone, my husband had to work crazy hours so he was not able to do the errand for me or watch the kids while I went alone. Anyhow, going in and sending the packages went great. Amelia (25 months at the time) helped me carry packages in, helped me pay, was happy, etc. I was feeling like a real success and we were going back to the car. I had baby in one arm (yes, in a child seat since it was a 2 minute errand) and I was holding Amelia's hand with my other hand. I get to the car and go to open it and Amelia bolts, laughing her head off. She takes off into the road running as fast as she can. I am only about 6 days post partum, I have to put the baby in the car and then run as fast as I can after my 25 month old who is running down the CENTER of a busy road! Now, the funny thing is how I looked that day.... my milk had just come in the day before and I had no bra that would fit so I was running as fast as I could with no bra, milk starting to leak all over, hair frazzled, my new postpartum belly flapping in the wind







Anyhow, cars had to stop in both directions as I finally caught her (did I mention that I am fat and out of shape?) she was safe and sound, but thought the whole thing was funny. No matter how much I tried to explain to her that this was dangerous, she just didn't see it that way. I decided then and there to buy a leash. I am not a lazy mom, I was a SCARED mom who had to listen to the screaches of car tires of people slamming on their brakes to keep from hitting my little girl. In the mean time, my poor newborn was in a car all alone.... someone could have stolen him as well. It was a horribly frightening situation that I never wanted to relive.

So anyhow, I got a leash and she used it off and on (it was always her choice if she wanted to wear it, hold my hand, ride in a stroller, etc) for that summer. She no longer runs into streets and we have no need to use a leash on her at almost 4 years old. My son hasn't needed one either. It was just a tool that got us through a phase where she didn't reallly, truely understand the danger of running into the street. If I ever feel though that we are in a phase where a child needs one to help them remain safe I won't hesitate to pull it out again.

I find it interesting that in this thread there are people who are proclaiming that using a leash is anti AP, dehumanizing, treating a child as a dog, not respecting the child as an individual, etc and then the same people go on to talk about how parents should learn to "control" their children or "train" them better. I guess those are just words that leave an icky taste in my mouth..... probably like how a leash is just a tool that leaves an icky taste in other people's mouths.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, I am better and so is every mother who has never used a leash on her child.

What kind of parent treats their small child like a dog in the first place?

You know, it just occurred to me... I've never used a leash AND I can be kind to others grown-ups, too! I must be the best mom ever! WooHoo!

Now where's my prize?

--Olive


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

This thread is getting more than a bit personal. Closed for review.


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

I don't think I have ever laughed so hard in my life.

MITB's you win the best most wonderful nicest perfect never made a mistake non dehumanizing mother of the year award.

Maybe bill gates will pay for that neurosurgon degree now....


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