# The price of choice



## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

I am going to move this thought out of the "on the fence" thread but it springs from there... so if you are reading this, but did not see my post in the other thread, it explains a little bit about my recent "wake up call" about abortion and how my feelings have changed in a very short time. I would like to say that my feelings are still in a state of turmoil and confusion, nothing has gelled- but I certainly have experienced the part of the change where my long held mindset just got derailed.

OK- I used to think, "Abortion- I would never have one... but it's not for me to put my opinions and morality on anyone ELSE... other people have a right to decide if they want to choose... I can't choose that for them." So I thought, we all get a right to choose, some will never have to choose, some will chose against, some will choose for. I thought that opinion was OK with my faith and my morals, as long as I chose AGAINST abortion... I was OK, I was not a hypocrite.

Well, I read this book "Lime 5" and there is a chapter in it called "Vacant Souls" which explains some of the problems which people who do abortions may face emotionally, professionally and spiritually. Some abortionists also work as OBs, and they wound up in positions where in one room they are trying to save a pregnancy of a child who can't survive outside the womb yet... and in the other room they are trying to rationalize the killing of a child who could be born and survive. And that it takes a fierce toll on them. The chapter got into this idea of in the abortion scene there are "the doers and the talkers" and that they develop an animosity toward eachother... that there are political activist primadonnas who go on TV and talk about how great abortion is... but they could't stomach watching one. And that they really don't care about the people who have to work in the clinics and actually deal emotionally with seeing the little hands and feet in the basin. Abortion may sound great in theory and politics... but would they snag a loop around a baby's arm and yank it off? No, choice is a word, a concept, a "right", for them it's not really an act.

WOW.

A right to choose... it's not just an idea in the books. If we had a right to choose, but no abortionists, there would be no real choice. (like an election with one candidate.) That's not choice. So the true right to choose does not happen when a legislature makes it law. It happens when an abortionist DOES an abortion. The right to choose actually comes with the death of a child, not the stroke of a pen. For this choice to be real, people have to kill babies. So that means, if you say anyone has a right to choose, you (even if you would not personally ever make this choice) are placing a burden of destroying a helpless humans' life on SOMEONE... the ABORTIONIST.

This changed my feelings about my indifferent opinion about my "right to choose" to not have an abortion... if this choice is my right, them I have enlisted a HUMAN BEING to stand by on hold to potentially kill my child if I want. If I have a right to choose, I have asked another person to accept my child's blood on their hands, the killing of another human being, as part of their civil duty to protect my right to choose. If I accept this right to choose, I have asked a Dr. to violate the hippocratic oath, and serve to destroy life, in order to protect my "right" to choose to destroy life in a "safe and legal" way.

I do not feel comfortable asking another person to do that. No more than I would to ask someone to make a contract with me that they would agree to kill my husband if, at some point down the road, I wanted him killed.

I would like to publicly recant. I do not accept that I have a right to choose abortion...or to choose against it. I do not believe that I have the right to ask a doctor to bloody his hands, or conscience with the responsibility of the death of my child. I believe strongly in the hippocratic oath. I am working to hold Dr.s accountable for that oath, I can't defend choice and the hippocratic oath at the same time. I do not believe that I have a right to kill another person, nor do I have a right to ask someone else to do the killing for me. Not one single person on the planet has a duty to kill my child at my request, and if no such duty exists, this choice, as a "right" also does not exist.

Love Sarah


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Sarah, your recent posts about abortion and circumcision have truly resonated with me. You have a heart that is sensitive to the suffering of small people and the guts to act on your conscience.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Thank you for an interesting post.

I would like to point out one thing, there is no consistent form of the Hippocratic Oath used in the modern medical establishment.

The ancient one _did_ proscribe pessaries for abortion; however, it was an oath only taken by doctors, not by midwives, nor surgeons. There used to be a huge difference there and, in some ways, there still is.

The ancient version is rarely used now.

Many currently practicing doctors have never taken the oath. Lots of medical schools don't administer it. As far as I know, you don't have to take it when you get licensed, just pass your board exams.

Even with the modern Hippocratic Oath, there are many versions, not all proscribe abortion, and I haven't ever read one that says the line "do no harm".

Privacy and respect for the patient are definately in all of them, including the ancient one.

Also, were any of the doctors described in that book old enough to have also been practicing doctors in the days of illegal abortions? The state laws that enabled doctors to perform abortions without fear of criminal charges were changed due to _doctors_ and other health practitioners working with women's groups to eliminate the physical consequences of those illegal and frequently septic abortions.

Unfortunately, few realize that Hecate was a goddess to the women who were both midwives and the undertakers. This role wasn't chance. There is a larger metaphor at work.

Just food for thought.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

A beautifully written, heartfelt post - but I disagree with the basic premise. I don't think the woman seeking the abortion abdicates her responsibility for it just because it is actually performed by someone else. She is hiring someone to implement her choice, not surrendering herself to them. Secondly the abortionist is not being forced to perform abortions. The government does not recruit doctors to become abortionists so that abortion can remain legal - doctors perform abortions of their own free will because women request them to, again out of their own free will.

I have a problem with picturing tiny disembodied hands and feet in a bowl, too.







This is why I only support early term abortion. If the baby can survive out of the womb, like baby #2 in your example, I don't consider it "abortion" anymore. It's harder to get all worked up over a blood clot.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarah*
...I would like to publicly recant. I do not accept that I have a right to choose abortion...or to choose against it. I do not believe that I have the right to ask a doctor to bloody his hands, or conscience with the responsibility of the death of my child. I believe strongly in the hippocratic oath. I am working to hold Dr.s accountable for that oath, I can't defend choice and the hippocratic oath at the same time. I do not believe that I have a right to kill another person, nor do I have a right to ask someone else to do the killing for me. Not one single person on the planet has a duty to kill my child at my request, and if no such duty exists, this choice, as a "right" also does not exist...

That's fine for you to reject your right to choose abortion. It is not fine for you to try and saddle your belief system on millions of women. I would never, ever presume that I know what is best for every other woman out there. I think women can, and should be, trusted to make their own choices when it comes to their bodies. I believe in women. Period.

Further, you're making the incorrect assumption that everyone believes as you do, that everyone believes that an abortion is ending a human life, that an abortion is "murder" or killing. Doctors who believe that are under no obligation to perform abortions. Ask around, you'll find many OB/GYNs who opt out of performing abortions. Same with nurses and other medical professionals.

I don't believe that abortion is murder or killing. I don't believe that doctors who perform abortions are violating their hippocratic oath. Why does your belief system trump mine? Who are you to decide what the is the right choice for millions of women and hundreds of doctors? Why is your belief system more "correct" than mine?

Since you've been so moved by the book you've read, I'll ask you to read _one_ more book. It's called Back Rooms: Voices from the Illegal Abortion Era by Ellen Messer.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Thank you Sarah....thank you for standing up and saying something so beautiful and so precious even though you probably knew how that would be received. I appreciate it and am glad you wrote those words....every time I hear about someone wanting to kill an innocent child through abortion, my heart breaks. I wish that child could get one chance at life.....


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)




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## librarymom (May 25, 2004)

Sarah said:


> .
> "I read this book "Lime 5" and there is a chapter in it called "Vacant Souls" which explains some of the problems which people who do abortions may face emotionally, professionally and spiritually. Some abortionists also work as OBs, and they wound up in positions where in one room they are trying to save a pregnancy of a child who can't survive outside the womb yet... and in the other room they are trying to rationalize the killing of a child who could be born and survive. And that it takes a fierce toll on them."
> 
> There are thousands of documented cases of PTSD in soldiers after wars. I support a military but cannot take up arms and shoot another human in Iraq. Shall we do away with the military because it takes a toll on them??
> ...


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

excellant post librarymom!


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Sarah, have you had a chance to read _Forbidden Grief: the Unspoken Pain of Abortion_? I am waiting for my copy to arrive from B& N (along with _Circumcision: the Hidden Trauma_). I am hoping it will be a really informative read.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I have once again made my point with smilies. Nice post Sarah.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Sarah, you are brave for reading through Lime5 (it made me literally sick when I read it). And ever so brave for posting what you posted here!


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
That's fine for you to reject your right to choose abortion. It is not fine for you to try and saddle your belief system on millions of women. I would never, ever presume that I know what is best for every other woman out there. I think women can, and should be, trusted to make their own choices when it comes to their bodies. I believe in women. Period.

Further, you're making the incorrect assumption that everyone believes as you do, that everyone believes that an abortion is ending a human life, that an abortion is "murder" or killing. Doctors who believe that are under no obligation to perform abortions. Ask around, you'll find many OB/GYNs who opt out of performing abortions. Same with nurses and other medical professionals.

I don't believe that abortion is murder or killing. I don't believe that doctors who perform abortions are violating their hippocratic oath. Why does your belief system trump mine? Who are you to decide what the is the right choice for millions of women and hundreds of doctors? Why is your belief system more "correct" than mine?

Since you've been so moved by the book you've read, I'll ask you to read _one_ more book. It's called Back Rooms: Voices from the Illegal Abortion Era by Ellen Messer.

Great post Pug. I read Back Rooms when I was young. I knew I was pro-choice then, but this book really touched me. I think women in my generation take Roe v Wade for granted, not having known a time when abortion was not safely and legally accessible.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

Well, I read this book "Lime 5" and there is a chapter in it called "Vacant Souls" which explains some of the problems which people who do abortions may face emotionally, professionally and spiritually. Some abortionists also work as OBs, and they wound up in positions where in one room they are trying to save a pregnancy of a child who can't survive outside the womb yet... and in the other room they are trying to rationalize the killing of a child who could be born and survive. And that it takes a fierce toll on them.
Was it the doctors themselves speaking in this chapter? or someone looking at what they do and making assumptions? That would make a difference for me how seriously I'd take this chapter. I'm sure it is difficult, but if one is truly committed to women having the right to control their own bodies, it might not be as a fierce, at least not for all.

Quote:

The chapter got into this idea of in the abortion scene there are "the doers and the talkers" and that they develop an animosity toward eachother... that there are political activist primadonnas who go on TV and talk about how great abortion is... but they could't stomach watching one.
Who would that be? I've never in my entire life seen anyone extolling how great abortion is. Even in pro-choice discussions I've seen, it's a matter of necessity or the woman's right to make a decision for herself that I might not choose to make for myself--Sort of the same way one sister of mine choose to have a scheduled c-section; even our against midwives sister couldn't believe she'd Choose to schedule for a first baby and never give herself a chance...

Quote:

And that they really don't care about the people who have to work in the clinics and actually deal emotionally with seeing the little hands and feet in the basin. Abortion may sound great in theory and politics... but would they snag a loop around a baby's arm and yank it off? No, choice is a word, a concept, a "right", for them it's not really an act.
Librarymom already covered this brilliantly.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
...I'll ask you to read _one_ more book. It's called Back Rooms: Voices from the Illegal Abortion Era by Ellen Messer.

Thanks, pugmadmama. I read this years ago and couldn't remember the name of it. Also read a couple of good essays on the topic in an anthology called Women's History.







I've got it somewhere at home.

Thanks for the post.


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks to everyone who is recomending books!

Love Sarah


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Interesting post. I, too, know what it's like to be in turmoil because your belief systems are changing. I appreciate what you are trying to work out as I have been there myself. I know that it is normal to swing far in one direction before you settle on a more sturdy belief. For me, I changed in the opposite direction because I was "pro-life" as a young girl and even participated in a "pro-life" rally. It was actually my experiences at those rallies that sparked my change in opinion.

I participated a little in the other thread. I do appreciate people who see the "gray" in this issue because I don't really see another way to look at it. I would probably have just as little in common with people who see abortion as some great thing (although, I think those people are a myth) as I do with people who are 100% opposed. In the end, I'm "pro-choice". I have been a pro-choice activist and I am not a primadonna and that part of your post really put me off ~ just so you know. Why did you say that?

About the "abortionsists" as you call them, I would assume that most are "pro-choice", no? Is it possible to require someone to perform an abortion against their will? It's not that I wouldn't sympathize with the challenges that they face - I just don't see this as forcing them to perform abortions. I imagine that it's similar to many of the disappointments that people in the medical profession face. Could you elaborate on this from what you have read?


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## JoshuasMommy (Feb 19, 2004)

Let me start by saying that I could not choose abortion for myself. It doesn't fit in with MY belief system. This system has NOTHING to do with religion but a source inside me that I use to measure what I believe to be right or wrong for ME. But I am Pro Choice all the way. Even though it goes against my personal truth. I am not old enough to have lived in the time that abortion was illegal. But I worked with the menatally retarded for several years. I cared for SOME people who would have been born healthy had they been wanted. But instead they were born to a woman for whatever her reasons did not want her child but could not legally obtain an abortion. These woman used wive tales and self abortion technics. I won't go into any detail here. But what really happened was they delivered a baby who would spend the rest of its life retarded, physically handicap and in many instantances wheelchair bound and twisted like fetal pretzels. Who were unable to speak or provide themselves any type of care. So how could I support something that would force a desperate woman to take desperate actions that could result in something happening that she might never come to terms with? It is much more humane the way it is today. For the woman and the fetus.

I am in no way trying to minimize your new self truth. I commend you for having the courage to reach inside you and define what you feel. And the willingness to put it out there for all to witness. I just wanted to share something with you that I have experienced.


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

(edited to clarify- this is in response to the third paragraph of Identitycrisis' post)

Well, what I'm saying that if this "choice" is a "right" then we could, theoretically... "force" and you CAN'T theoretically FORCE THAT.... and if not, then it's not really a RIGHT, it's just a convenience which is protected by legislation... if there were no abortionists, then this illusion of "right to choose" would vaporize.

And Meiri- the chapter- there are lots of small quotes and descriptions from Dr. and other clinic workers as well as reports from reporters who had interviewed Drs... an example of the fierce toll, would be a nurse who feels an obligation to women to help them in a time in crisis... she believes in choice and this is how she deal with her feelings about what her job is... but then someone walks in and its their fifth abortion... and she knows that this woman is just abusing this option to abort because "they" the talkers, have reduced that baby to a blob of cells and the elevated the 'choice" into a defining emopowerment ... and for this irresponsible women she can dump her trashy life on that nurse to clean up... And the nurse knows that that blob of cells was a person because she was the one who had to sort out and count the arms and legs... and she knows that the lady getting the abortion is the furthest thing for an empowered woman as you could get... and that she is just enabling an abusive person, not empowering them- and she knows that she is just lying to herself when she tries to shake the day out of her system and get reintegrated in the world of the living.

Just in case anyone does not know this book, it was written by a very radical character in the pro life movement, Mark Crutcher, his organization "Life Dynamics" is working to make life hard on abortionists by providing legal help to abortion injured women. He also has a spy network of people who work in Abortion clinics what is going on, the sales techniques, the people, the pictures, the market in body parts of aborted babies.. that's where the info comes from. (edited again to add... that is where SOME of the info comes from, a lot of the rest of the info comes from court documents, hospital records, and newspapers... very concrete sources)

Also a lot of the testimonials comes from people who used to work in the abortion industry and got out, so they come clean with all their stories and what they know. It's really sad. A lot of these types of stories can be found online. Like here: http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/ As I was reading these stories I recognised a lot of the incidents that are mentioned in Lime 5.

Sohj- you asked about when these people were active- if you follow the above link and read Dr. McMillan's story- she got into abortion because of her experiences in the time before it was legal.

Love Sarah


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

As we hash this out, I think it's significant to realize that once you "pick a side," there's going to be unpleasantness to deal with and cognitive dissonance to be resolved no matter which side of the fence you landed on.

If you decide to go with the "outlaw abortion" side, you have to resolve the fact that some women who really oughtn't to be having babies are going to get pregnant. You have to admit that outlawing it won't stop *all* abortions and that some women will be harmed by their choice to seek illegal abortion. You will find yourself associated with people who hold huge gross pictures up where children will see them.

If you go with the "Get your laws off my body" side, you have to deal with the idea that abortion happens 4000 times a day for reasons ranging from poverty or fetal deformity to the fact that a 17-year-old doesn't want to gain weight before the prom or that Mom already has two girls and was hoping for a boy this time. You have to accept that tiny hands and feet will be re-assembled on tables so the abortionist can check to make sure he got all the parts out, and that babies will be drowned in buckets and their body parts sold. You have to reslove the idea of "choice" with the fact that most women walking into an abortion clinic don't actually _want_ an abortion.

It's not easy. I don't vilify any of the posters here for their convictions. I have mine and will vote and act to save babies from being aborted. But if it were easy it (the debate) would have gone away by now.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarah*
(edited to clarify- this is in response to the third paragraph of Identitycrisis' post)

Well, what I'm saying that if this "choice" is a "right" then we could, theoretically... "force" and you CAN'T theoretically FORCE THAT.... and if not, then it's not really a RIGHT, it's just a convenience which is protected by legislation...

Okay, I see your point but doesn't this apply to many, many other things in the medical field as well as elsewhere? Breast implants, massage therapy, tattoos & piercing, chemotherapy, circumcision, healthcare, nutrition, education...almost everything is merely a privilege protected by legislation. In the US there are a precious few rights that are guaranteed to be provided.

I must say (being the non-primadonna that I am) that I believe so strongly in the right to a safe abortion that if there were no people trained to perform them than I would consider the task.


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

Quote:

And Meiri- the chapter- there are lots of small quotes and descriptions from Dr. and other clinic workers as well as reports from reporters who had interviewed Drs... an example of the fierce toll, would be a nurse who feels an obligation to women to help them in a time in crisis... she believes in choice and this is how she deal with her feelings about what her job is... but then someone walks in and its their fifth abortion... and she knows that this woman is just abusing this option to abort because "they" the talkers, have reduced that baby to a blob of cells and the elevated the 'choice" into a defining emopowerment ... and for this irresponsible women she can dump her trashy life on that nurse to clean up... And the nurse knows that that blob of cells was a person because she was the one who had to sort out and count the arms and legs... and she knows that the lady getting the abortion is the furthest thing for an empowered woman as you could get... and that she is just enabling an abusive person, not empowering them- and she knows that she is just lying to herself when she tries to shake the day out of her system and get reintegrated in the world of the living.
Just because someone "abuses" something, does that mean that "something" has to end? You're right, that woman who is on her fifth abortion probably has problems. Not because she is having an abortion, but because she obviously doesn't have or use good judgement. But because of that, women shouldn't be able to have abortions? Should we stop people from having plastic surgery because Michael Jackson is a weirdo? Should we end welfare because of the people that refuse to get a job? Should we sterilize men and women that have more kids than they can afford?


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Well, daricsmami, if it were just about abusing something innocuous, like chocolate (fair-trade chocolate, of course), then of course it doesn't mean it has to end! But even many who favor choice recognize that abortion is taking the life of a human being and so should not be undertaken lightly.
Of course, for those who believe that the right to life itself supercedes the right to a desired quality of life, the rresponsible use/abuse issue is moot.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Super pickle, we cross posted. I agree with what you said in that last post, which is why I posted on the "on the fence" thread. I agree that the issue is far from ideal on both "sides" ~ we just landed on different sides.

Not that I'm dispassionate about my choice - it's just that it was a complicated one. I'm a firmly pro-choice and am an activists for limiting abortions but I'll be voting to protect the right to "choice".

I would still like a clarification on the primadonna comment, btw.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

In agreement, IdentityCrisisMama. I've been thinking about what Snowy Owl said on the other thread--that the whole issue is a distraction. I do believe it is being exploited as such.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

SP, we cross posted again - yes, the abortion issue is probably a distraction and I hate that it's partisan.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarah*
an example of the fierce toll, would be a nurse who feels an obligation to women to help them in a time in crisis... she believes in choice and this is how she deal with her feelings about what her job is... but then someone walks in and its their fifth abortion... and she knows that this woman is just abusing this option to abort because "they" the talkers, have reduced that baby to a blob of cells and the elevated the 'choice" into a defining emopowerment ... and for this irresponsible women she can dump her trashy life on that nurse to clean up... And the nurse knows that that blob of cells was a person because she was the one who had to sort out and count the arms and legs... and she knows that the lady getting the abortion is the furthest thing for an empowered woman as you could get... and that she is just enabling an abusive person, not empowering them-

I agree that this scenario is a problem but what is the way to empower the woman getting the abortions? It certainly isn't to force her to continue with the pregnancy. This is part of why I am "pro-choice" and still believe strongly in limiting/preventing abortions. The alternative to some form of pro-choice just seems so...I can't think of the word. I just think it will do more harm than good, which is were I made my ultimate decision.

What is the pro-life solution to this problem? I'm willing to bet that it's the same solution as the pro-choice take --- prevention.


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## daricsmami (May 18, 2004)

Quote:

But even many who favor choice recognize that abortion is taking the life of a human being and so should not be undertaken lightly.
Hence my statement:

Should we sterilize men and women that have more kids than they can afford?

Having children isn't something to take lightly, either. Should we force sterilization as we see fit? I know plenty of people that have a lot of children that are a strain to their finances and mental health. These children are living, breathing entities that are protected by law. I worry about them more than aborted fetuses.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Thanks for the information and clarification Sarah.

However, the abortions are a symptom of that example woman's problem, not the source. As IdentityCrisisMama asked, how would forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term empower her?

Many things are abused in the real world, shall all be banned? Alcohol is abused, shall we return to Prohibition? Freedom includes the freedom to make mistakes, to make decisions that others disagree with, etc. It's rough to have to watch someone use their freedom to screw up their life, but at some point, it's Their's to screw up. All anyone else can do is be ready with the info they need to get help when they figure it out that they need it.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

That's fine for you to reject your right to choose abortion. It is not fine for you to try and saddle your belief system on millions of women.
I totally agree with this. And although i can feel the passion in your OP, what can never happen is for your self truth to impede the rights of mine.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Its been said and said again, so I am unsure why I feel the need to say it yet again, but...

The assumption that you are asking something inappropriate/immoral of someone only works if you assume that everyone holds to the same moral code. What if an health care provider was actually pro-abortion? Then, would you consider it a favor? As adults, people have the right to choose what they *themselves* want to do--- if you don't want to perform abortions, by all means don't. But assuming that people who have consciously chosen to provide a service need to be "saved from themselves" is offensive.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Super pickle that was beautiful. Thank you. I agree completely as I have my own deeply held religious beliefs on this issue which don't mesh perfectly with the pro-choice or pro-life movement and the part of me that wants to be an activist on every issue that is important to me has been torn on this one.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

I hope this isn't completely off the track of this thread, but I am curious about your (Sarah) post "... if there were no abortionists, then this illusion of "right to choose" would vaporize." I am assuming you mean the right to choose to abort? I think that if there were no abortionists it would vaporize the right to choose "safe" abortions. But a lot of women choose to take their health into there own hands, and would turn to herbal abortions or even (I cringe thinking about it) "back-alley" type abortions. There will most likely always be a choice for some women when it comes to deciding to carry a pregnancy, and I just hope the choices are safe.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I haven't read the book so I can't really comment about it's content but I would say if it is written mostly by a fanatic pro-lifer then the info in it is going to be grossly biased.

I believe a lot of doctors who among many other services provide abortions are obviously pro-choice and feel they provide a valuable service for women. I doubt most would want your pity.
Again, your perspective on abortion isn't and shouldn't be universal.
I can understand your inner struggle with abortion and that you have found a knew "truth" but I hope you understand not everyone feels the same or has the same "truth" as you nor should they.
Abortions won't stop if abortion is made illegal. Abortions will exist as long as unplanned/unwanted pregnancys do.
Also the elite in this country have always had access to safe abortions legal or not. So making it illegal again will harm women w/o money the most and these women will be the most desperate and the ones having to resort to "back-alley" abortions or some other dangerous way.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Here is another woman's opinion on Lime 5 after reading it, just to add another perspective.
http://www.eileen.250x.com/Main/7_R_...me5_Debunk.htm


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, I can tell you that the book is EXTREMELY biased. And as a person who has been a activist against circumcision and *for* breastfeeding for a few years, I can also tell you that biased doesn't mean much to me as far as a judgement of the merits of something's truth. The fact of the matter is some things really are not balanced issues. And some things which appear to be unbiased are actually loaded heavily by the truth they refuse to allow into the picture.

"I believe a lot of doctors who among many other services provide abortions are obviously pro-choice and feel they provide a valuable service for women. I doubt most would want your pity."

I don't think you are understanding me... my OWN morality does not allow me to contract with a killer... regardless if the other person has a morality which allows them to kill... my own morality objects to asking a person to kill for me. - even if it was with the most ruthless killer who would not think twice about the life he was taking- even if he didn't feel like his soul was in any way tarnished by the killing- mine would be... and not just by the killing, but even for the contracting. If I was to accept this "right to choose" with all the other women who say they have it, who say we ALL have it... then I am also accepting the blood of all the children who have died because of that "right" being excercised. I don't have to do any killing, I become contracted with a killer just by being burdened by this right to kill which some insist is mine. It's not mine.

And farmermom- I'm so sorry for struggling to communicate this, and making everyone follow along with me while I get it said in the most clear way- as I said- the ideas are just right now crystalizing. I have tried three times to clarify what I meant and address what you said and I am just not getting it out right. Maybe I can try again tomorrow!

Love Sarah


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Then I guess I wonder if you think you have the right to decide for everyone else what their morals should be. Am I supposed to decide what is right for me by your morals? Don't you understand that the way you feel about abortion isn't the only or right way to see it (it might right for you) , your view is definitely NOT the right way or the truth for me and a lot of other people. I woud never try to get you to live by my morals all I expect is the same respect in return. I understand feeling so strongly about something , I feel as strongly about certian things as well, but when it comes to *my* body you have no rights. Your morals can't win out against my own for what is right for me. Just as mine can't in regards to yours.
You are NOT responsible for what I choose to do with a fetus growing inside of me. Don't try to twist it into something you must stop because of "personal responsiblity", I really can't understand that kind of logic.


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## Sarah (Nov 20, 2001)

Seacoby- That review was interesting, and I'm sorry you didn't have the benefit of having your own copy of Lime 5 to compare along with what she said in the review. The review really did make a point, and it made Mark Crutcher's point for him.

In the bowel injury part, where she mentions the 12 year old Natasia? Well, you see, before I read Lime 5 I didn't know that an abortion injury could be having your uterus perforated and having a big piece of your small or large intestine sucked down the pipe with your dead baby and then having a colostomy bag or a monsterous infection of intestinal contents mixed up in your hemmoraging. I simply didn't know- no one told me. I thought legal abortions were safe and had really no risk other than to the dying baby. No one even told me that this is a one in 100,000 chance. But, Mark Crutcher described in graphic detail what some abortion injuries actually entail- like sometimes the decapitated head of the baby winds up getting shoved through the perforated uterus into the abdominal cavity... or when suddenly the Dr sees some abdominal fat getting sucked in the tube and understands that they have ruptured the uterus... it's not so much that the injuries shocked me... it's that for ALL the women out there talking about my right to choose a safe abortion not a single one of them told me this true, perhaps rare, but real, risk. That's the inditment, the coverup!

now, this lady mocking Lime 5, I can almost see her sliding a condecending set of glasses to the tip of her nose...

she says: "For example, under Injuries to the Intestines/Bowels we find the case of Natasha, a 12-year old who underwent a third trimester abortion. Third trimester terminations are rare and much more likely to cause serious injury, especially on a child. There is no mention of how Natasha got pregnant or the possible consequences of full-term delivery for a twelve-year old. "

What is she doing? She is using the old pro-abortion technique of making childbirth look like it is the most dangerous thing, but does she compare the risk of natural childbirth to what actually happened to 12 year old Natasia? Does she even tell the readers with all her contempt for Crutcher what actually happened to Natasia? No. Natasia wound up with her uterus ruptured in 3 places, lost her uterus and lived with a colostomy bag for some time until her bowels were re-attached. Does that sound to you like a risk of natural childbirth? She remarks that there is no mention of how Natasia became pregnant... well- she was 12- obviously it was a bad situation for that little girl. How many pedophiles have their actions covered up by abortionists who erase the evidence for them? But no, the only reason why anyone knows that someone was having sex with Natasia is because a quack ripped three holes in her uterus while aborting her one and now only baby. The medical board called the Drs work a "Hatchet Job" and alleged "gross and repeated malpractice" Snarky Anne Bower doesn't tell us that does she?

So, if I was a pro choice teeneger who was avoiding that radical's biased book and website, I would find out from Anne that Natasia was in a lot of danger if she was to have gone another month in her pregnancy... that contrary to what Mark says, abortion is safe and childbirth is dangerous. And I would STILL not have heard about bowel injuries even though I got >< that close to that story.

Earlier in this thread someone asked about the idea of the primadonnas speaking glowingly on TV... they said that no one likes abortion. Well, here it is, you are wrong... this is the exact type of thing I mean:

"In January 1996, after compiling data from hundreds of "Spies for Life" who had been digging frantically through every newspaper for references to possible deaths from abortion (legal or otherwise), Mr. Crutcher unveiled Lime 5, the book that was supposed to destroy the abortion industry. Nine months later, abortion is still legal and women are still seeking it daily."

She says this to mock Crutcher... as if SHE wins because women are still seeking it daily? Is this a fact which she REVELS in? I think so. I truly think that she is happy that they are killing their babies. She does not ALSO yearn for the day when no one would WANT an abortion...she wants to win this fight with this guy, and killing babies means that she is winning and the more they kill, the more she wins. I am HORRIFIED by this glib triumphant attitude about a morbid parade of women "seeking them daily"

That's JUST what I was talking about. I want no part of that bloody "right".

Love Sarah


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Wow Sarah, I have to say again....You go, courageous woman!!!!

If anyone is actually interested, there is a very famous former abortion doctor who "switched sides", so to speak, and is no vocally anti-abortion. The name is Dr. Bernard Nathenson, I believe. I read his book a while ago, but totally forgot it's title. Anyway, that would be one perpective on the price of choice, in the words of a man who did many abortions with his own hands.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Not to diminish Natasia's suffering, but there are risks associated with all surgical procedures, and bad doctors in all fields.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarah*
I truly think that she is happy that they are killing their babies.

I really doubt this, because she probably doesn't consider them babies. Until it can survive outside the womb, it is a _potential_ baby, IMO. You make it sound like aborting an 8 week old fetus is the same as smashing an infant's head with a rock. It is this kind of rhetoric that turns me off to the whole so-called "pro-life" movement.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

It depends on your world view. Most in the pro-life camp *are* being honest becaue they *do* believe that killing an 8 week old fetus is morally as bad as killing a born infant. The vast majority of pro-lifers, myself included, believe that human life has the same value no matter how small it is, what stage of development it is, or where it is. In the very rare, rare cases where it is actually a choice between the mother dying and the baby having to be aborted (for instance, and ectopic pregnancy) they would consider it a necessary evil to end a pregnancy if the child could not survive outside the womb. If it was viable, or the threat of death wasn't immediate, there are many who would believe that everything should be done to save both mother and child. The Blessed Gianna comes to mind for that situation.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
It depends on your world view. Most in the pro-life camp *are* being honest becaue they *do* believe that killing an 8 week old fetus is morally as bad as killing a born infant.

This is true. I don't usually participate in discussions about this subject because the basic assumptions are so wildly different for each side and I don't see it getting resolved. I mean, if you see it as a baby and I don't, that's going to be the root of all our disagreements.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Sarah , I truly think you are letting your own bias and emotional view greatly cloud your judgement.
I knew that you could have your uterus perforated from an abortion. See I have had an abortion and to consent to having one I had to sign a document with all the complications and side effects listed in it.
We aren't going to come close to seeing eye to eye on this and I am personally getting disgusted with your post (I would however always fight for your right express these opinions) and anti-abortion propaganda (yeah I know I can stop reading them). You are obviously a very fanatic anti-abortionist now and I can see you aren't really wanting to see where I'm coming from or any other pro-choice person. I do not believe abortion is wrong or murder. I do not want you to have any power over the decisions I make with my own body and any fetus that happens to be apart of my body. I also don't want or need to have that power over your body.
I'm pretty sure if I read Lime 5 I would mostly be appalled at the anti-choice propaganda, I asure you it wouldn't sway my stance on abortion. I did read exerpts from it the ones you were describing among them. Although very sad it doesn't make me think abortion is this very dangerous procedure that all women must be saved from. And if some doctors who perform abortions are being reckless or unlawful then they need to be addressed but that is not imo a reason to illegalize abortion.
You don't have to have any part in abortion, don't have one. However , I and many others will fight you with everything we have if you try to take our right to have a legal abortion away or any other choice away from us concerning our own bodies.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"what can never happen is for your self truth to impede the rights of mine."

Aah, post-modernism. Arg. If you believe something and I believe something different, consider the possibility that one of us is wrong.

From dictionary.com:

truth ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trth)
n. pl. truths (trthz, trths)
Conformity to fact or actuality.
A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
Sincerity; integrity.
Fidelity to an original or standard.

Reality; actuality.
often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Good point Phathui!


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## LVale (May 4, 2004)

When every pro-lifer stands up and adopts a baby that would be aborted then I will change my stance from pro-choice to pro-life!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

When every pro-lifer stands up and adopts a baby that would be aborted then I will change my stance from pro-choice to pro-life!
I won't. When it is medically possible to remove a fetus and grow it outside of a woman, then I would *consider* changing my stance. Actually caring for a child is not the only issue with going through a pregnancy.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

wow - I have just read this entire thread and I am deeply moved - by ALL the viewpoints.

For me personally, I would never have an abortion. This choice does not stem from a religeous core, rather an emotional one. I dont think *I* could deal with the pain and stress involved. I feel strongly that the feelings of the woman having the abortion are far too often overlooked. Too often she is painted as a heartless, cold bitch who wants to murder her unborn child. This is NOT always the case - in fact it is *RARELY* the case. Yes you get woman who abuse the choice but I dont think that is relevent grounds to revoke that choice for other women. Rather, action needs to be taken to educate these women and help them make better choices. THIS IS WHERE REAL CHANGE TAKES PLACE!

As far as making abortion illegal - this is NOT the right way to go. Like other posters have already pointed out - changing the law will NOT change the FACT that women will STILL have abortions and if their right to safe abortions is revoked they will be FORCED to put themselves in EVEN MORE danger. IMNSHO, this is a GROSS violation of human rights.

I want to just add that the term pro-choice does NOT = pro-abortion. This has been stated here many times before.

There is more I want to say, but I will just leave it at that for now....

Peace


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## mama2j&t (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:

Rather, action needs to be taken to educate these women and help them make better choices. THIS IS WHERE REAL CHANGE TAKES PLACE!
I totally agree. I think it needs to be a social change rather than a legislative change. Allow the right to choose to remain, but encourage women to consider other choices (birth control (when not already used), adoption, abstinence when appropriate, etc) when possible. I think that _ideally_ we would all like a society where abortion is not necessary.

Quote:

I want to just add that the term pro-choice does NOT = pro-abortion. This has been stated here many times before.
But also, pro-life does not always = anti-choice. I think there are alot of women who are pro-life in the sense that they don't support abortion but do not want that right taken away from all women. I don't think that there is as big of a divide as we think. I think *most* women would like to see less babies being aborted and the government staying away from legislating it. But when a person says they are pro-life, they are *usually* stereotyped as a crazy person waving signs outside of an abortion clinic, instead of a person who would like to see more value assigned to an unborn child.

Of course there will also be people who do not think fetuses are babies but I think that there are not as many people who believe that anymore. Yes, people may differ on when they think that the baby has rights - is it at conception, or viability, or birth? But I *think* most people agree that a fetus actually is a baby at some point. (Of course I may be mistaken







)

I am really learning from these threads. It is good to have an intelligent discussion without a bunch of hateful words being passed between sides.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

I think there are alot of women who are pro-life in the sense that they don't support abortion but do not want that right taken away from all women.
I'd agree, and add that they (we?) call themselves pro-choice. Thats what pro-choice means (once again, not pro-abortion).


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2j&t*
But I *think* most people agree that a fetus actually is a baby at some point.

At some point, yes. I personally do not consider it a baby from the moment of conception - I consider it a potential baby. There is a reason why we have the terms zygote, fetus, and baby - they are not the same thing. Maybe I am in the minority here. But IMO, a zygote does not have the same rights as a baby. This is different than saying some babies have rights and some don't.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
At some point, yes. I personally do not consider it a baby from the moment of conception - I consider it a potential baby. There is a reason why we have the terms zygote, fetus, and baby - they are not the same thing. Maybe I am in the minority here. But IMO, a zygote does not have the same rights as a baby. This is different than saying some babies have rights and some don't.

I completley agree with you. I did NOT consider the embryo I aborted a baby, the potential for a baby of course. It is a difference of perspective and I think we all would be wise to understand our personal perspective is only right for us.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I want to add that just because I don't consider an embryo a baby, does not mean I think people should take abortion lightly. It is a potential child, and that needs to be taken into account. I just get aggravated when people talk about a zygote like it's the same thing as an actual baby lying in your arms and cooing at you. To me that is clouding the issue by deliberately trying to appeal to people's emotions and not their intellect.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

It's actually a strawman argument, IMO. i.e. "Oh, I see, you are for abortion. I suppose you also think its ok to kill that baby lying in that woman's arms over there?"

Set up a ridiculous or extreme position, refute that, and then claim it refutes your opponents argument. Doesn't have the same impact if you are honest about what an 8 week old embryo looks like.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

[\


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I am sure there are women who take the decision to abort lightly but I have never talked to a woman who did. The decision I made wasn't made lightly or easily.

Quote:

I just get aggravated when people talk about a zygote like it's the same thing as an actual baby lying in your arms and cooing at you. To me that is clouding the issue by deliberately trying to appeal to people's emotions and not their intellect.
It is precisely what they are trying to do.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

WOW~~ Your post is so honest and heartfelt. I appreciate your thoughts and am sorry if others couldn't read your post and accept that it is your feelings and that you felt the need to share them without trying to debate them. The majority here are very prochoice and I aplaud you for sharing knowing your feelings would be torn apart.
OP--- did you mean this to be a support only/no debate thread? If so, you can put that in the title







:


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I appreciate your thoughts and am sorry if others couldn't read your post and accept that it is your feelings and that you felt the need to share them without trying to debate them. The majority here are very prochoice and I aplaud you for sharing knowing your feelings would be torn apart.

I don't want to be a jerk, but why post about it if you don't want to debate it? I for one am not trying to "tear her feelings apart". I am sympathetic to her feelings. I just don't agree with her points. If she didn't want to talk about it, that's fine and I respect that but then why start a thread in Activism about it?

Sheacoby, I am positive you didn't take the decision lightly - most people who think and have a conscience do not. Unfortunately I have known people who did. I knew one girl (an ex-friend) who had an abortion and went out clubbing 3 hours later. I knew someone else who had had 5 abortions. This is sad, obviously, and it's the negative side of legal, on demand abortions.

But, just like we don't make alcohol illegal because some people abuse it, and we don't make cars illegal because sometimes people get killed - we shouldn't make abortion illegal because some women are irresponsible and treat it like a "get out of jail free" card.


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## mocha09 (Jul 6, 2003)

I want to stay out of the debate, but I have a question, Sarah.

All of your posts and arguments rest on the assumption that the life in question is a "baby." As in: asking an abortion doctor to kill a "baby" is something you cannot morally justify....

Is this what fundamentally changed for you? Did you formerly *not* see it as a baby, a child, a human, etc., and now you do?


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

I've never really put my thoughts on this subject into written words, so please bear with me...

To me it doesn't matter so much whether abortion is right or wrong or whether a zygote/embryo is a baby or not or how far along it should be allowed to happen. The main point, in my opinion is that abortion is it a sad fact of this world - a painful truth - a hard, undeniable, inescapable reality.

Until we live in a world where every woman and every child is cherished, supported and well-loved women will seek abortion. Whether it's legal or illegal babies will die. If there's anything that needs changing in this world it is this - let's find ways to fully support every woman and child so that no woman ever needs to think about making such a heart-wrenching choice and disgusting words like bastard child and devil spawn disappear from our vocabulary entirely.

The difference is when abortion is illegal, women die too. I do not believe any woman should ever have to hide in her bedroom with a coat hanger wondering if she will survive what she is about to do. She should never have to pay someone in secret hoping she doesn't get ripped off, infected with who knows what or die. I believe abortion needs to be legal to protect women's lives - period.

We can argue till we're blue & green about when life begins and when it can be ended, but it doesn't add up to a hill of beans for that desparate woman who sees abortion as her best choice.

I of course hope & pray that every woman who feels the need to have an abortion does so as early in the pregnancy as she possibly can, and I agree there need to be laws about when it's too late. I leave that to others.

I just cannot ever justify in my mind supporting a coat hanger - which to me is the choice between legal and illegal. Abortion becomes illegal, coat hangers become necessary. (BTW; coat hangers are just an example, I know there are other ways, but we are afraid to educate women on THAT, too.)

Until we can love more and fear less, we're stuck!


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Thank you SARAH.









Quote:

Privacy and respect for the patient are definately in all of them, including the ancient one.
Privacy.

The only time you are actually guaranteed privacy under the law is when you have an abortion.

And even then, you should know that doctors report the abortions they do to the government (women give their SS# to the abortionist when they go in for the abortion). If a woman who has had a previous abortion later is lucky to become pregnant and tells her OB that she has had an abortion, that information will be recorded on her child's birth certificate as part of the statistical part of the birth certificate, on the half that is not given to you when you pay for your own certified copy. Also on that half is information about who paid for your prenatal care and delivery and when you began your prenatal care, your DP's and your racial backgrounds, how many m/c's you have had and how many live children you have had in addition how many abortions you have had. Why would the government want this information?

So much for privacy.


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## weesej (Apr 19, 2003)

I don't consider it "abortion" anymore. It's harder to get all worked up over a blood clot

By week 4 gestation or what we would say is week 6 of pregnancy arms and legs have begun to grow. If you cut open the gestational sac you would be able to see the baby. Its heart has begun to beat. It would probably not yet be recognizable as human but would be recognizable as a life. This is probably the earliest women are getting in for abortions. By week 7-8 gest or 9-10 pregnancy it is recognizably human. It is NOT a blood clot. Women haveing a miscarriage at this stage might say so, but that is because the baby didn't form correctly. Often women will carry a pregnancy 1-2 months after the baby has stopped growing. So babies that stop at 4-5 weeks often don't spotaneously miscarry until 10-12 weeks.

BTW this is all referenced from Maternity and Gynecologic Care by Jensen and Bobak. It is one of the leading OB texts around and is very accurate


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
If the baby can survive out of the womb, like baby #2 in your example, I don't consider it "abortion" anymore. It's harder to get all worked up over a blood clot.

I think I was quoted out of context, so here is the full sentence. What I meant to say is that past a certain point in the pregnancy, it ceases to be "abortion" and becomes the dreaded "killing a baby" that pro-life advocates so rightly decry. NOT to say, I don't consider removing a blood clot to be abortion. OK?









It was flip of me to refer to it as a "blood clot", sorry. All I can say is that just because the human form is there, it doesn't mean the human soul or spirit is.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I don't want to be a jerk, but why post about it if you don't want to debate it? I for one am not trying to "tear her feelings apart". I am sympathetic to her feelings. I just don't agree with her points. If she didn't want to talk about it, that's fine and I respect that but then why start a thread in Activism about it?

Sheacoby, I am positive you didn't take the decision lightly - most people who think and have a conscience do not. Unfortunately I have known people who did. I knew one girl (an ex-friend) who had an abortion and went out clubbing 3 hours later. I knew someone else who had had 5 abortions. This is sad, obviously, and it's the negative side of legal, on demand abortions.

But, just like we don't make alcohol illegal because some people abuse it, and we don't make cars illegal because sometimes people get killed - we shouldn't make abortion illegal because some women are irresponsible and treat it like a "get out of jail free" card.


I got the idea that she was simply sharing her emotions and views that were not up for debate because she moved to a new thread rather than putting this on the thread ALREADY debating abortion. Please OP correct me if I am assuming too much.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

It's a baby when you love it, it's a clot when you loath it.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

An embryo isn't a blood clot but an *early* abortion would be similiar in appearance to a blood clot (a small one at that).
Here is a link to a site with pictures of fetal development. It gives the actual age of the embryo.
http://embryo.soad.umich.edu/carnSta...3/stage13.html

I didn't loath the embryo I was carrying when I chose to abort. I didn't put any blame or anger towards the embryo.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Doesn't even resemble a blood clot. try www.abortiontv.com


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Angela, I have been to a lot of anti-abortion propaganda sites (a lot which have the exact same pics etc...) you aren't going to link me to anything I haven't already seen.
The material that comes out of an early abortion infact would be akin to a blood clot. I am not in anyway saying the actual embryo looks like a blood clot before it is aborted, I KNOW what embryo's look like at different stages. I think if you read what I wrote w/o proving me wrong in mind you would have actually understood what I meant.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Again - I am sorry I called it a blood clot. Can we move past this?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
It's a baby when you love it, it's a clot when you loath it.

This is more propaganda. Loathing has nothing to do with it.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Loathe, discard, abort, choose, whatever the reason one would abort it's always different when it's a keeper. That's how I see it. I already know you disagree....
What it looks like after being aborted is not what It was meant to look like. I did understand what you meant. Fully.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Just as I thought the pics of aborted fetuses on that site are the same ones that are on several other anti-abortion sites.

http://experts.about.com/q/338/1059236.htm
A thought about the pics anti-abortion people use.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

That is the opinion of one doctor whom I have no doubt is pro-choice. Thing is that I'm a woman just like you. I am 12 weeks pregnant and I can feel my baby moving around as I type this. I cannot ignore that and pretend it's not a baby. I will not! I love this child and believe it's a child no matter who's body it is in. No doctor or picture changes that for me.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
What it looks like after being aborted is not what It was meant to look like.

I know that.

I still stand by my statement that just because something has a human form doesn't necessarily mean it has anything else we would associate with being human. Not to cloud the issue but consider someone who is brain dead. Their body is here but their person-ness is gone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
I did understand what you meant. Fully.

Why do I doubt that? I gather from your tone that you still think I consider a zygote to be nothing more than a blood clot. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:

No doctor or picture changes that for me.
Ditto!
I personally couldn't have an abortion past 8 weeks of pregnancy (6weeks embryo age) but that's just me. I know I couldn't feel the fetus (by the time you can feel them they are a fetus) moving and then abort. I do start feeling like the fetus inside of me is a baby when I started feeling it. I would say for me that is when I start having a relationship with my baby. These are my feelings about it. I just don't think my feelings get to dictate what other people feel. That's why I am pro-choice. It doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about second/third trimester abortion or about women who have several abortions. I just don't think my opinions needs to be made into laws or forced on others.
I certaintly try not to judge women in those circumstances either.
I would never want you to deny what you feel. I am happy for you that you are pregnant (congratulations!!!!). I don't want you to pretend that the baby inside of isn't a baby, why would I?


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I know that.

I still stand by my statement that just because something has a human form doesn't necessarily mean it has anything else we would associate with being human. Not to cloud the issue but consider someone who is brain dead. Their body is here but their person-ness is gone.

Why do I doubt that? I gather from your tone that you still think I consider a zygote to be nothing more than a blood clot. Please correct me if I am wrong.


You have the right to consider it how you choose as do I. What I"m trying to get across is that just because YOU think it's a zygote and I think it's a baby doesn't mean either of us are right. There is no way to cut it down the middle. What you and I feel are human is totally different. It's not something anyone can know they are right or wrong about. Can we agree on that?


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby*
Ditto!
I personally couldn't have an abortion past 8 weeks of pregnancy (6weeks embryo age) but that's just me. I know I couldn't feel the fetus (by the time you can feel them they are a fetus) moving and then abort. I do start feeling like the fetus inside of me is a baby when I started feeling it. I would say for me that is when I start having a relationship with my baby. These are my feelings about it. I just don't think my feelings get to dictate what other people feel. That's why I am pro-choice. It doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about second/third trimester abortion or about women who have several abortions. I just don't think my opinions needs to be made into laws or forced on others.
I certaintly try not to judge women in those circumstances either.
I would never want you to deny what you feel. I am happy for you that you are pregnant (congratulations!!!!). I don't want you to pretend that the baby inside of isn't a baby, why would I?


Thank you. Please understand that even though I have a very different view does not mean that I am judging or forcing anyone. This thread wasn't about a person, it's about our own seperate views. I only posted to this thread after swearing off all abortion threads to comment on the OP's outlook. I don't want to argue with you, we've done that and we understand each other by now.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I have been thinking about this thread. I'm sorry I ever brought up the whole "is it a person" question because not only is it unanswerable, ultimately it's beside the point. Whose rights are more important - the born or the unborn? You may say they are equally important but when the mother's right to dictate what happens to her body conflicts with the fetus's right to develop into a baby, someone has to lose. Then of course there is the issue of forcing a woman to bear a child she doesn't want. What becomes of this child? Whose responsibility is it? You can say that the woman made the choice to have sex, now she must accept responsibility for it. IMO this is not fair to the children born to a mother who doesn't want them. What is the other option? They become wards of the state until they are adopted? Not only that but it belies a puritanical, punishment-oriented approach to the whole issue - a "you made your bed, now lie in it" kind of mentality. The mom had her chance to make a choice, she made it now it's too late to do anything. What is more wrong - to force a young woman and her unwanted child into a life of poverty and dependence or to allow her to end her pregnancy and graduate college and have a full, rewarding life. I am just using an example - I know not all situations involving an abortion are like this. But they often are.

This doesn't even touch on the subject of birth control failure, rape, etc. We should not have to plead our case in order to obtain an abortion - it should be up to the woman.

Women have been having abortions for as long as they have been having children. IMO it is only immoral when it is done thoughtlessly.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
What you and I feel are human is totally different. It's not something anyone can know they are right or wrong about. Can we agree on that?

Yes. (We cross posted.)


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
You have the right to consider it how you choose as do I.

One might almost think you are pro-choice based on this statement!









(couldn't resist)


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sarah*
...I thought legal abortions were safe and had really no risk other than to the dying baby.... it's that for ALL the women out there talking about my right to choose a safe abortion not a single one of them told me this true, perhaps rare, but real, risk. That's the inditment, the coverup!
...

From the "Abortion" section of the Planned Parenthood website:

_"Complications from early abortion include

...A cut or torn cervix...Organ injury....Death"_

From the Feminist Women's Health Center website:

"_Potential complications from the abortion procedure include

...perforation of the uterine wall - for which the treatment may be nothing, to surgical repair in a hospital, depending on the severity._

There is no cover-up.

There are no 100% safe surgical procedures. If you chose to believe that abortion was somehow magically exempt from that fact, that's because you ignored, or were unaware of information, that is readily given out by _pro-choice_ organizations.


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## AmandasMom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I want no part of that bloody "right".
Well, that's fine, don't have an abortion should the situation arise. Tell everyone your views. That's fine too. But when you begin to tell me that I shouldn't have an abortion for this reason or that reason, that is NOT fine. I had an abortion in 1989. And if I were in the same situation as I was in back then, I'd have another one. I was glad to have the abortion, happy and relieved even. I had to walk through a picket line to the clinic. I wanted to smack them with their own signs. You have NO idea of my situation back then, you have no idea where I was or anything about my life, so you have NO right to tell me what I can or can't do with an unwanted pregnancy, anymore then you have any right to tell me if I can get plastic surgery, cut my hair or wear funky blue eye shadow. You don't think abortion is ok? Fine, don't have one! I am so sick of these people who try to impose their view on everyone else. What makes your views so much more important then anyone elses? What makes you right and everyone else wrong? Who determines that? You? If you don't agree with the right to have an abortion, then DON"T HAVE ONE. And stay out of my life, and out of my business!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I edited because, although I feel there are great many wonderful people here at MDC, I'm worried about those fringe few. Unfortunately, I have a serious lack of trust for aspects of the pro-life movement. I know I should not distrust those of you here at MDC who are pro-life but I had such a negative experience participating in pro-life rallies that some trust issues are coming back up for me. Sorry, I want to share my story but I'm seriously reluctant.

I keep getting sucked into these abortion threads and I should stop. I've always had the feeling that the pro-choice and pro-life movement could/should be able to combine their energy towards a common goal ~ fewer unwanted pregnancies. Focusing on making abortion illegal just seems like misplaced energy because it doesn't look at the whole problem.

So, I guess I'm not critical of the pro-life movement that focuses on the problem of unwanted pregnancies/babies and I'm happy to have seen that there are quite a few of those people here at MDC ~ not surprising as this is such and enlightened place.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I've always had the feeling that the pro-choice and pro-life movement could/should be able to combine their energy towards a common goal ~ fewer unwanted pregnancies. Focusing on making abortion illegal just seems like misplaced energy because it doesn't look at the actual problem

ITA...

We are never going to get anywhere by trying to get others to agree on whether abortion is morally right or wrong. These things are personal decisions and only leads to arguing and feelings being hurt.

The focus should be on WHY abortion is necessary in the first place.

Thank you for sharing your story.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Raven, I was editing my post while you posted. I changed my mind about sharing. Thanks for your post though


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)




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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

I keep getting sucked into these abortion threads and I should stop. I've always had the feeling that the pro-choice and pro-life movement could/should be able to combine their energy towards a common goal ~ fewer unwanted pregnancies. Focusing on making abortion illegal just seems like misplaced energy because it doesn't look at the whole problem.
I so agree with this


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Me too.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Now the question is - HOW would this happen?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Here is the problem, as I see it - realistically, there will never be a perfect world in which *every* child is wanted and loved. We can talk about preventing unwanted pregnancies, sex education, more support for young and/or single mothers, abstinence, accessible birth control, etc. etc. all day long but in the end, we will never completely eradicate the problem of unwanted pregnancies. So IMO abortion will always have to be legal.

Not to say we shouldn't all work together to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies. But the fundamental disagreement is legal vs. illegal - I suspect that most PL advocates would like to see abortion made illegal *while* work is done to make them less necessary, or at least made illegal eventually. I don't personally see such a thing ever becoming possible. Is that terribly negative of me? Maybe, but I see it as just being realistic.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

ITA famousmockingbrd.

Just as I stated before that making every child a wanted child (by someone) would not be enough. Raising a child is not the only outcome of pregnancy--- 9 months of pregnancy is also a serious outcome. And I will never feel the right to force a person to go through 9 (possibly very dangerous) months.

In addition, until the *entire* pro-life camp (including those with the $$$) will support excessive amts of sex education and birth control opportunities, we are pretty much stuck, IMO.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

In addition, until the *entire* pro-life camp (including those with the $$$) will support excessive amts of sex education and birth control opportunities, we are pretty much stuck, IMO.
I agree!!


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## AmandasMom (Nov 19, 2001)

I can't ever see a time where the need for abortions isn't necessary. I think some pregnancies can be prevented simply through free birth control (but even birth control isn't 100%, I was on the pill and got pregnant and had an abortion). If you want to know the reasons why people have abortions, you need to ask each person who is having one why. Do that for a year in different parts of the country. Tabulate the results. Then identify areas where it might be possible to prevent pregnancy in the first place. (free private birth control). Then identify areas where once they are pregnant, keeping the baby could be an option or adoption (but then you need to overhaul the adoption process to make it much easier for people to adopt and much cheaper!!!)

But the choice to abort or not always needs to be there. Even though I was relived and happy to be able to have an abortion, it was diffult after. Not the loss of the baby, just my life situation at the time. In the recovery room, I was on a cot with like 20 other females (well they had their own cot). Most were quiet, some were crying. Who knows why they were crying? I cried because my hormones went from suddenly pregnant to not pregnant, and I was crying because my life was so FU at that time. And they had Tracy Chapman playing "Fast Car" on the radio, that didn't help. I don't regret my choice. And I would do it again if I were in the same situation. Some other women might not make the same choice again. But it's their choice, not mine.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:

Here is the problem, as I see it - realistically, there will never be a perfect world in which *every* child is wanted and loved. We can talk about preventing unwanted pregnancies, sex education, more support for young and/or single mothers, abstinence, accessible birth control, etc. etc. all day long but in the end, we will never completely eradicate the problem of unwanted pregnancies. So IMO abortion will always have to be legal.
























I think one way it can *begin* to change, is right here, right now - within each of us.

We can try hard to see each others POV - and work gently and passionately to reaching a place where bashing and jugement has no place.

When we can reach out to each other *regardless of opinions* we will be moving in a positive direction.

I think its sad that women like IdentityCrisisMama feel they cant come here and share their stories for fear of being bashed









JMO

Thanks ladies for your wise words...


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
One might almost think you are pro-choice based on this statement!









(couldn't resist)


I didn't say act on it.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*























I think one way it can *begin* to change, is right here, right now - within each of us.

We can try hard to see each others POV - and work gently and passionately to reaching a place where bashing and jugement has no place.

When we can reach out to each other *regardless of opinions* we will be moving in a positive direction.

I think its sad that women like IdentityCrisisMama feel they cant come here and share their stories for fear of being bashed









JMO

Thanks ladies for your wise words...


I think it's sad also. I think it's equally sad that when a woman who has aborted shares it's well recieved and everyone can be understanding but when a woman like Sarah shares her feelings and experiences it's argued. THATs our problem and perhaps the first step in getting on the same team.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:

I can't ever see a time where the need for abortions isn't necessary. I think some pregnancies can be prevented simply through free birth control (but even birth control isn't 100%, I was on the pill and got pregnant and had an abortion). If you want to know the reasons why people have abortions, you need to ask each person who is having one why. Do that for a year in different parts of the country. Tabulate the results. Then identify areas where it might be possible to prevent pregnancy in the first place. (free private birth control). Then identify areas where once they are pregnant, keeping the baby could be an option or adoption (but then you need to overhaul the adoption process to make it much easier for people to adopt and much cheaper!!!)
I agree!

Also, I would never want to see adoption pushed on a woman who would keep her baby if she had real help. I do not want women to believe adoption is the best/right thing to do because the woman is young, poor, sinlge etc...


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

IdentityCrisisMama,
I would really like to hear your story. I can understand not wanting to share it here. If you feel okay doing so please pm me, if not please don't feel bad in just ignoring me,LOL.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Coming into this late, but just wanted to say that I really got a lot from this post:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
As we hash this out, I think it's significant to realize that once you "pick a side," there's going to be unpleasantness to deal with and cognitive dissonance to be resolved no matter which side of the fence you landed on.

If you decide to go with the "outlaw abortion" side, you have to resolve the fact that some women who really oughtn't to be having babies are going to get pregnant. You have to admit that outlawing it won't stop *all* abortions and that some women will be harmed by their choice to seek illegal abortion. You will find yourself associated with people who hold huge gross pictures up where children will see them.

If you go with the "Get your laws off my body" side, you have to deal with the idea that abortion happens 4000 times a day for reasons ranging from poverty or fetal deformity to the fact that a 17-year-old doesn't want to gain weight before the prom or that Mom already has two girls and was hoping for a boy this time. You have to accept that tiny hands and feet will be re-assembled on tables so the abortionist can check to make sure he got all the parts out, and that babies will be drowned in buckets and their body parts sold. You have to reslove the idea of "choice" with the fact that most women walking into an abortion clinic don't actually _want_ an abortion.

It's not easy. I don't vilify any of the posters here for their convictions. I have mine and will vote and act to save babies from being aborted. But if it were easy it (the debate) would have gone away by now.

So true!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Just so there's no wild speculation about "my story", I basically was sharing the story because I get somewhat tired of hearing speculations about women that have abortions. People seem to like to "classify" women who have had an abortion and I find that sad ~ especially if it's done for anyone's political agenda.

Basically, I had an abortion because I was not ready to have a child. I went on to have a child with the same man that I was pregnant with the first time. I know that this was the best choice and did not mourn it at all. That choice allowed me to be a positive parent and a positive person in society, something that would not have happened if I had had a child 5 years earlier. That's my story but it isn't in any books.

As far as my experience with the pro-life people that I met when I was about 14 years old, well it's been a long time but I'll try to explain. I was very impressionable at 14, probably looking to get involved in community service and generally more sensitive than many of my peers. I was approached by some pro-life activists at a festival and, IMO, completely manipulated with biased and simplistic propaganda. My family generally tolerated this phase and allowed me to attend a rally despite the fact that everyone in my family is pro-choice. Anyway, it didn't take me long to see these particular activists for what they were ~ not in the least bit interested in helping the pregnant women. And not realistic, honest or compassionate. I was 14 and could see this and I still can't believe the focus of their activism back then -- hopefully it's changed.

You know, I agree that abortion is always going to be needed. I just think that the sheer numbers and the politics are what should be changing. I would hope that if the abortion numbers were at their all possible low, then there would be much bigger things to be discussing. NO one should have an abortion because they can't afford to have a wanted child. No one should get pregnant because they are abused or raped. No one should get pregnant because they don't have access to proper birth control. Oh, but it isn't nearly that simple and I know that. The abortion issue goes really deep and has the potential to seep into many unexpected areas of our lives. I don't think many people realize this when they are forming their decisions and casting votes. (not you, OP, and not anyone here - just the general population)

As far as attacking the OP, the only thing I asked for was a clarification on her use of the word primadonna to refer to pro-choice activists. I thought that was antagonistic and basically asking for a debate. Other than that I appreciate that she is "in the process" and have taken her comments accordingly.

Anyone can believe anything they want about the abortion issue. Call it what you want&#8230;what do we do about it? Incedentally, I wouldn't call myself an activist on this subject anymore. Are any of you pro-life people or pro-choice people currently active? I'm curious to know what your activism involves.

And yes, once again, I agree with the message in Super Pickle's post. It is very difficult for me to listen to any "side" that does not at least recognize that there are issues on both sides. I *know* they realize that this is not a black and white issue and it's dishonest, IMO, not to discuss that. Unfortunately, I think there is quite a bit of dishonesty in the abortion debate. (Oh, not here on this thread - the debate in general)


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
You know, I agree that abortion is always going to be needed. I just think that the sheer numbers and the politics are what should be changing. I would hope that if the abortion numbers were at their all possible low, then there would be much bigger things to be discussing.

nak

I totally agree.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Thanks, IdentityCrisisMama. The reason I aborted was similiar but I was also very poor and had no support. I did mourn but I know I made the right choice. I and many many other women aren't the picture that some paint of a woman who aborts, a selfish, heartless woman who doesn't want to be inconvienced with a baby.

From the contact I have had with anit-abortion people I have found a lot are only interested in pointing fingers and condeming women who choose to abort. Or they portray women who abort as victims that have been lied to and they don't really know what they have done. On most of the anti-abortion websites I have been to , there is plenty of that and a lot of lies (imo) as well. This kind of propaganda does NOTHING to lower the percent of abortions. The book the OP is refering to falls into the propaganda camp.

I am not active really, I do sign petitions and such for pro-choice issues but that's about it. I would go to a pro-choice rally if there was one local.
I would really like to see women in general work towards lowering the rate of abortions but how to do this I'm not sure. I know reproduction education would be a start, with info on birth control and free access to it. But then there are a lot of people who don't want to see that happen.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
...I think it's equally sad that when a woman who has aborted shares it's well recieved and everyone can be understanding but when a woman like Sarah shares her feelings and experiences it's argued...

Do you really not see the difference between someone sharing their own, personal experience and another person declaring that an entire movement is participating in "killings" and "cover-ups"? Or the difference between respecting each woman to make up her own mind and declaring that you now hold _the truth_ for every woman?

In my opinion, the key difference between the "sides" of this debate are that one side is saying to women "Make up your own mind" and the other side is saying "Let the government decide for you." As a feminist, I can't pretend that those two povs boil down to the same intent. They don't. One is about trusting women, one is about controlling women.

If you really want to reduce the number of abortions, then fight for better access to birth control, fight for better financial help for single mothers, fight for universal health care, fight for longer paid maternity leave, etc. Fighting to end legal abortion only punishes _women_ stuck in an unhealthy system. Ending legal abortion is a band-aid, a quick fix. And, as always, the cost for this quick fix will be borne on the backs of _women and children_.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Thanks for the support and encouragement everyone.

ICM, thanks for sharing your experience. The simplistic activism bugs me too.

In response to your question, yes, I'm currently active. Never been to a march or protest but I'm involved in a pregnancy resource center.
I was a volunteer counselor for about 2 years but have taken the last year off from counseling b/c of my new baby and my husband's busy schedule. I am currently "just" a donor and a "Mentor Angel," as we're called (kinda cheesy







), meaning I am assigned to 1 or 2 particularly "abortion-vulnerable" pregnant women at a time and provide support throughout their pregnancies. I like being a mentor because we form a relationship and the women get to see me breastfeeding, speaking to my children gently, etc. and I get to give them Sears books and slings







The mentoring program is important b/c even though a pregnant woman might say, in her initial counseling session, that she doesn't believe in abortion or wants to have her baby, if she is facing severely difficult circumstances or an unsupportive family or partner, there is still a significant chance that she will end up aborting due to others' pressure or overwhelming despair if she does not have an ongoing source of encouragement and aid.

I have started compiling a list of names and numbers of other women like myself who would like to start pregnancy counseling regularly again but who need to trade off for childcare. So as soon as I get sufficient interest I will resume counseling.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
If you really want to reduce the number of abortions, then fight for better access to birth control, fight for better financial help for single mothers, fight for universal health care, fight for longer paid maternity leave, etc. Fighting to end legal abortion only punishes _women_ stuck in an unhealthy system. Ending legal abortion is a band-aid, a quick fix. And, as always, the cost for this quick fix will be borne on the backs of _women and children_.

YES, YES, YES!!!!!!


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

I don't mean to be ugly, so please don't take it that way, but I just feel like I have to say this: pro-choice people, please don't feel that it is appropriate to take it upon yourselves to tell pro-lifers what they "should" be doing. "You should all be adopting unwanted babies"...."You should all be supporting condom distribution"....etc. that's such a turn-off. Those of us who are intelligent and who truly care about mothers and unborn children are perfectly capable of figuring out how to best make use of our time, treasure, and talents. Thanks in advance! And I'll let you in on a little secret---we talk a lot about abortion b/c it's controversial. But MANY of us are ALSO involved in helping the "already born"--we just don't need to talk about it b/c everyone already supports those efforts.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
In response to your question, yes, I'm currently active. Never been to a march or protest but I'm involved in a pregnancy resource center.
I was a volunteer counselor for about 2 years but have taken the last year off from counseling b/c of my new baby and my husband's busy schedule. I am currently "just" a donor and a "Mentor Angel," as we're called (kinda cheesy







), meaning I am assigned to 1 or 2 particularly "abortion-vulnerable" pregnant women at a time and provide support throughout their pregnancies. I like being a mentor because we form a relationship and the women get to see me breastfeeding, speaking to my children gently, etc. and I get to give them Sears books and slings







The mentoring program is important b/c even though a pregnant woman might say, in her initial counseling session, that she doesn't believe in abortion or wants to have her baby, if she is facing severely difficult circumstances or an unsupportive family or partner, there is still a significant chance that she will end up aborting due to others' pressure or overwhelming despair if she does not have an ongoing source of encouragement and aid.

I have started compiling a list of names and numbers of other women like myself who would like to start pregnancy counseling regularly again but who need to trade off for childcare. So as soon as I get sufficient interest I will resume counseling.











This is where change will take place.

I must ask - if a pg woman you are mentoring decides to have an abortion will/do you still show her compassion and support? I dont mean this in a condescending way... Im truly just curious....


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Dear Raven, Thanks for the support. It is appreciated.
If a woman in counseling indicates that she has made a final decision for abortion, we give her a list of things to look for in a clinic so that she will avoid the "fast-food chain" type of abortion mill but rather a safer place. Also
we give her a pamphlet on post-abortion issues and tell her if she experiences these problems and wants help, to come back to us. If one of my mentoring clients aborted (and this has happened, not to me but to other mentors), I would maybe talk to her about post-abortion support groups, God's forgiveness, and her future sexual choices. I wouldn't condone the abortion but wouldn't shame her or devalue her as a person. I guess the mentoring relationship would probably then need to be wrapped up bwithin a few weeks, unless she expressed serious desire to seek ongoing help with post-abortion healing (I'd refer her, not counsel her) or sexual integrity.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

OH. Raven ,I have to add that compassion is our center's policy for every woman regardless fo her choice, but I can think of one instance in which a fellow volunteer broke the rule and said something in a challenging tone to a client like, "How are you going to feel when you've killed your baby?" She was shocked afterwards and admitted it to us, and we were all disapproving. Emotions run high in this work and occasionally someone will get out of line. but we do know better.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
...If one of my mentoring clients aborted (and this has happened, not to me but to other mentors), I would maybe talk to her about post-abortion support groups, *God's forgiveness*, and her future sexual choices. ...

Would this be done redarless of the womans own beleif system?

I ask this b/c not everyone believes that it is a sin to have ab abortion and it may cause further unnecessary pain and conflict to a woman in an already stressful situation.

Thanks for replying!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Nice to meet you, Super Pickle. You know there are quite a few issues that I would be interested in discussing about the abortion issue and it's nice to know that there are pro-life people out there like yourself.

And your work seems highly admirable. I feel that women who consider abortion but really want/need support to continue and have their child (or give it up for adoption) should be top priority and I would like to be in a position to help in the way that you do.

I'm just curious if any secular and/or pro-choice organizations that sponsor a similar program. Does anyone know?

Regardless, SP, thanks. I wish there were people like you at that rally 15 years ago.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
I don't mean to be ugly, so please don't take it that way, but I just feel like I have to say this: pro-choice people, please don't feel that it is appropriate to take it upon yourselves to tell pro-lifers what they "should" be doing. "You should all be adopting unwanted babies"...."You should all be supporting condom distribution"....etc. that's such a turn-off. Those of us who are intelligent and who truly care about mothers and unborn children are perfectly capable of figuring out how to best make use of our time, treasure, and talents. Thanks in advance! And I'll let you in on a little secret---we talk a lot about abortion b/c it's controversial. But MANY of us are ALSO involved in helping the "already born"--we just don't need to talk about it b/c everyone already supports those efforts.


I don't mean to be ugly either, but the anti-choice people not only want to tell other women what to do with their bodies, but they want to make it a LAW with legal penalties attached. Seems a bit odd to complain you don't want the pro-choice people to tell you what YOU should be doing, but the anti-choice movement feels perfectly satisfied to not only tell every woman in america what SHE should do should she find herself with an unwanted pregnancy -- suck it up and have the baby no matter what -- but also FORCE her to do so.

To paraphrase you: Those of us who are intelligent a are perfectly capable of figuring out how to best make use of our time, treasure, and talents.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle*
I don't mean to be ugly, so please don't take it that way, but I just feel like I have to say this: pro-choice people, please don't feel that it is appropriate to take it upon yourselves to tell pro-lifers what they "should" be doing. "You should all be adopting unwanted babies"...."You should all be supporting condom distribution"....etc. that's such a turn-off.

In return anti-abortion people please don't tell us pro-choice people what we "should" do, such as give up our babies for adoption instead of abort, or have the baby and raise it even if we know we can't etc.... Or the one I love the most don't "open are legs" in the first place. It goes both ways.

I am glad that you are helping women who want to keep their babies be able to do so!
I think we need more centers to help women but I want to see pro-choice , secular ones.
If anyone has a website or any info about centers or org. that are pro-choice, secular and help women (finacially, emotionally etc..) wether they want to keep their baby, give it up for adoption or abort please point me in their direction, thanks!!


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Planned Parenthood does pre-natal care as well as birth control counseling/provision and abortions. I recall an acquaintence told me years ago that they also helped refer her to an agency for adoption when that was what she wanted to do (and did her pre-natal care).

How, exactly, this plays out in the appointments, I'm not sure. I didn't go to them for my pre-natal care and when I was volunteering there, I certainly wasn't a counsellor.

They certainly don't force anyone to have an abortion.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I think Planned Parenthood is a good organization. I was just wondering if there are any groups or org. that take it a step further.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

I don't mean to be ugly either, but the anti-choice people not only want to tell other women what to do with their bodies, but they want to make it a LAW with legal penalties attached. Seems a bit odd to complain you don't want the pro-choice people to tell you what YOU should be doing, but the anti-choice movement feels perfectly satisfied to not only tell every woman in america what SHE should do should she find herself with an unwanted pregnancy -- suck it up and have the baby no matter what -- but also FORCE her to do so.
I agree with this, and though the exact same thing when i read Superpickles post.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

"If anyone has a website or any info about centers or org. that are pro-choice, secular and help women (finacially, emotionally etc..) wether they want to keep their baby, give it up for adoption or abort please point me in their direction, thanks!"

I don't think that any of those exist. I've only ever seen help centers that are pro-life.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Apparently a polite request is not going to be honored. Okay! Just know it's tiresome.









Anyway, one more thought about the pregnancy centers: they are important. Every child born is precious and invaluable. Even if we only saved one baby a year it would be worth it to keep the center running. But the stationmasters on the Underground Railroad weren't satisfied just to smuggle a few slaves a week to freedom; it was all they could do in a hostile legal environment, but all the while they were longing for abolition. Most pregnancy center workers feel the same way.

Taking my leave now b/c I've spent too much time online lately. Thanks everyone.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
If you really want to reduce the number of abortions, then fight for better access to birth control, fight for better financial help for single mothers, fight for universal health care, fight for longer paid maternity leave, etc. Fighting to end legal abortion only punishes _women_ stuck in an unhealthy system. Ending legal abortion is a band-aid, a quick fix. And, as always, the cost for this quick fix will be borne on the backs of _women and children_.


















What many people seem to be incapable of understanding is that women who want an abortion will always find a way to abort. Abortion has been around for as long as women have been having babies. Midwives have always known ways to induce miscarriages. Slippery elm. Pennyroyal. The list goes on and on.

Criminalizing abortion wont end it.

My grandmother, in Puerto Rico, learned to perform aboritons illegally, and performed dozens of them safely. The ultimate irony is that when abortion was illegal, at the same time my grandma was performing them at home using herbs, etc, rich white women were flying to PR to have illegal abortions safely in doctor's offices on the same island where women like my grandmother had no access to health care.

When abortion is illegal, it is the poor, and women of color, who suffer.

Abortions do not cease to take place. MOre of society's marginalized women are placed at risk of death, serious complications, etc.

As for adoption, it's not the right choice for everyone. I hated pregnancy. I was very sick the entire time. I can't imagine anyone being forced to deal with the 10 months that I did willingly. The argument that every child put up for adoption is wanted is crap. There are many many children currenlty available for adoption that languish in foster care. Also, it is not the place of pregnant women to provide babies to the childless.

I want real sex education available to all for free. Birth control available to all for free (including training on FAM). Prenatal care for free. GYN care for free. I want real parental leave. Most of all, I want all of this free of the constraints of abstinence based christian programs. I want unbiased secular info.

Women will always want and need abortion. Can we reduce that need? Yes. I don't think that our society is interested in what it would really require.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

RubyV, welcome!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Urgh! I just did a search for abortion counseling and I seriously hope no woman is going on line to try to find help because the search engine is totally bogged down with the "great debate". I found several things but most of them seem to have a specific agenda other than helping individual women. I also read a (probably biased) criticism of some pro-life counseling centers, which was frightening to read. On the other hand, Planned Parenthood could also use some help as I don't think they are able to handle the demand and sometimes service is lacking.

Urgh, this subject is difficult for me to be thinking about again. I haven't been active with this for quite a long time and I've forgotten about many of the issues and there are new issues since I was active (IVF comes to mind among other issues).

SP, I know it's hard to be told what you should be doing. I'm sure it's as hard to hear that as it is to hear what "we" should be doing. I think this is a consequence of talking about all activism issues and I don't think it's pro-life specific. I wouldn't take it personally if I were you. I know that whenever I hear anyone going on and on about their "passions" I'm always thinking "so, what are you actually doing to make a *real* change" ~ talk is cheap. Then I become the hypocrite because I'm not active at all anymore. I used to be extremely active with recycling, pro-choice & healthy sex issues (and even pro-life for a phase LOL!), and many social programs for the hungry, homeless and the elderly. Somehow, I wouldn't mind anyone asking for "credentials" when it came to my activism because with activism comes responsibility.


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## IslandMamma (Jun 12, 2003)

RubyV -- Wow! Very well-articulated post.

Super Pickle, one reason why you won't find pro-choice pregnancy "crisis" centers is because by that very definition, they tend to be anti-choice centers. Don't believe me? Google "pro-choice pregnancy cricis center". Other than planned parenthood (which shows the term as used to badger women away from choices), they are all very pro-life. Also, if you visit the NARAL site, there's more info about why the term "pregnancy crisis center" is used by the pro-life movement. Often times (and granted, this is not true for all agencies), these "counseling" centers aren't presenting all the choices at all, but rather calling women sinners and killers if they choose to consider abortion.

What I would consider pro-choice pregnancy help centers are the myriad feminist health centers scattered across the US.

SP, this is by no means a dis on what you do, BTW. I commend you for taking to heart your beliefs and walking the walk, so to speak. I think any action taken with love and compassion has merit, even if we disagree on principle.

I do think your comparison to the underground RR is a bit heavy handed. Slaves HAD NO CHOICE-- the abolitionists were fighting for a world where the slaves could be free to make their OWN choices, so I find it ironic that you would use that to compare with the crisis centers.

And once again I have violated my self-imposed no-abortion thread rules...







:


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IslandMamma*
I do think your comparison to the underground RR is a bit heavy handed. Slaves HAD NO CHOICE-- the abolitionists were fighting for a world where the slaves could be free to make their OWN choices, so I find it ironic that you would use that to compare with the crisis centers.

I found this to be a poor analogy as well, and somewhat offensive, which is too bad because I was with her for a while there. Not that I agreed with her position, but I respected her conviction and she presented her viewpoint with tact and compassion.

ICM, thanks for your story. I used to be an active pro-choice supporter - I went to the first march on Washington and was hit by tomatoes thrown by PLers standing along the march route. I also had terrible names slung at me along with the tomatoes. I have done door to door canvassing in support of PC candidates. Honestly I don't get involved in politics much anymore. I am sorry to say I have become jaded and cynical in my old age. I think this is the first thread in Activism I have ever posted on.

I appreciate everyone's posts, both sides. I am going to bow out of this discussion now as well because honestly I don't see it going anywhere good. Emotions are just too volatile, both PC and PL.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Well put. Abortion is immoral. I was pro-choice one time too, some years before I became a mother.

Now I don't like people that fight for abortion and mix women's rights with irresponsibility. If you're raped, any hospital gets you a day after pill! If you get voluntary pregant because you had a bit of fun, you shouldn't have people fighting for your rights!


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## KoalaMama (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:

If you're raped, any hospital gets you a day after pill!
Not if abortion is illegal, they won't. And what happens if it doesn't get reported the day after?

Quote:

you shouldn't have people fighting for your rights!
Do you believe the only rights worth fighting for are the ones that fall in line with your way of thinking?


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
...Now I don't like people that fight for abortion and mix women's rights with irresponsibility. If you're raped, any hospital gets you a day after pill! If you get voluntary pregant because you had a bit of fun, you shouldn't have people fighting for your rights!

Who is going to determine if a woman has been raped? It is just her word for it. What if she has no bruises or physical injuries? Doctors have claimed that the woman is lying because she had no injuries....but "experts" tell women not to fight back because they'll just get injured worse.

And, what if charges are not brought? It isn't the victim who gets to bring it to a trial or even to arrest the person. All a victim can do is to make a complaint to the authorities and _they_ do any arresting (if they find the person). Then, the public prosecuter's office makes the decision whether or not to bring it to court and how hard to prosecute.

I've known of victims whose "alleged" attackers were released.

And I once knew a woman who was raped by her husband. And she took it as far as she could. In the process, she was repeatedly told that in marriage there is NO rape. This was NOT long ago. It was in the early 80's, probably before some of the women on this board were born; but, it really isn't long ago. Don't take your advantages for granted.

So, now how exactly are we going to enforce this "only in case of rape" right to not carry the fetus?

How do you define "fun"? How's about "manipulated"?

What if birth control failed?

NO FORCED STERILIZATION, NO FORCED PREGNANCY.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
...If you're raped, any hospital gets you a day after pill! ...

*Where* do you live??? In the United States, that is absolutely NOT the case. Here's a typical senario from when I worked with battered women and victims of sexual assault:

1. Victim is sexually assulated. *If* she has a good support system, she goes to hosptial. Hospital does not have a SANE (Sexual Assualt Nurse Examiner)nurse on shift. Sexual Assault advocate is called.

2. Victim is transported by advocate to a different hopstial that has a SANE nurse on duty.

3. Victim waits, as sexual assult is not an "emergency." Oh, and by the way, does victim have insurance? Because the police department may, or may not, have the funds to pay for the SANE exam this month.

4. Finally victim is examined. Victim wants morning after pill. *Wait, this is a Catholic hosptial, they don't give out morning after pills*.

5. Advocate calls short list of doctors who have said they are willing to prescribe morning after pills.

6. Find doctor. Victim doesn't have insurance, now advocate needs to find the funds to pay for the morning after pill.

And so on and so on.

Of course, all of that is moot if the victim doesn't feel safe or supported enough to go to the hospital in the first place. Which happens all the time. Then what? Now our sexual assault victim is going to be further victimized by being forced into carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term? No, thank you.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sohj*
Unfortunately, few realize that Hecate was a goddess to the women who were both midwives and the undertakers. This role wasn't chance. There is a larger metaphor at work..

beautfully put. Althogh as a midwifery/homebirth assistant I don't provide or help with abortions, I did have to come to terms early in my work that bringing forth life can easily become being a helper of death in the cycle of life. Personally I have peace with that and I really thought about the words of the OP about blood on the abortionists hands, and the chooser putting it there so to speak. Personally, I would have no problem with helping a mother or myself through an herbal abortion attempt - informationally speaking. Mammals and human have ended pregnancies/committed infantcide since the beginning of time. It is a sad part of our life cycle, but labeling it wrong/immoral/unGodly, etc doesn't take away the small part of it all that is normal.
I do find that I have a different view from even most pro-choicers I know...and I am sure I am not putting it as eloquent as my thoughts are in my head.








peace,


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

Do you believe the only rights worth fighting for are the ones that fall in line with your way of thinking?
ITA.

And like PMM said, where do you live? because if your by me, where two of the three hospitals are Catholic, you're not getting it. ever. and if you deliver there, you cant have your tubes tied either. It makes me sick. The other hospital in town which isn't Catholic, doesn't dispense of them either. so you SOL if you get raped here. (the doc might write you a script, and you can get it filled at any pharmacy, but if you don't have the $$$, well then....)


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Keys, I'm a doula, childbirth educator and student nurse in L&D right now, and I see no problems/qualms/contradictions in providing help with abortions.

In fact, as a CNM (not for about 5 more years or so) I have every intention on dispensing/proving medical abortions (RU 486 mifepristone/misoprostol combo) to terminate a pregnancy before 6wks, as well as EC to prevent pregnancy....as long as my patients are active in TRUE informed consent and are aware of all their options.

I used to be VERY prolife (make it illegal, picket, "you shoulda kept your legs closed", "be an adult", etc...very ashamed now







). What changed my mind? Being in the position that many find themselves in--young, scared, poor and pregnant. I CHOSE to give birth to and raise my baby because it is what I felt was right for all involved (mostly baby and myself). But it made me realize-who am I to tell others what they can and can't do. Talking about striking fear into someone-what a wakeup call that was for me!









And I know now, that if I face someone who tries to take that right away from me, MY right--be it my parents, leonore, the prez, WHOEVER, I will fight them tooth and nail to protect this right-a right that I hope I never have to exercise, but that I also realize the importance of.

Just letting all know where I stand....

PS-Pug speaks the truth...and a lot of these hospitals around me are turning Catholic...


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Keys, I'm a doula, childbirth educator and student nurse in L&D right now, and I see no problems/qualms/contradictions in providing help with abortions.

just for the record, neither do I. I just don't work with anyone that provides pharmacological or surgical options. Like I said, there is always herbal options too!


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