# Time to wean?



## ErinluvsKen (Dec 22, 2004)

I hate that I have to write this and today I need A LOT of support. I hope you guys are willing to listen. I'm having a tough time lately. DS (who is 21 months) is waking more than ever in his whole life to nurse throughout the night and I'm getting less and less sleep. He is getting more dependent on nursing during the days too. I'm expecting baby #2 in Nov and I'm so nervous about leaving him to sleep without me for a couple days when I go to the hospital to have the baby. I wonder if I'll be able to focus on my planned natural/no interventions birth if I'm so worried about leaving DS. I would miss him no matter what, but if he slept better and nursed less I would have a better comfort level with leaving him. My mom and dh will be splitting the time with him and I trust them COMPLETELY to be totally AP and provide him with everything he needs, but what if he only needs me?

I have tried nightweaning and MAN was it UTTER HELL in this house. We have so far tried 3 times. I've reached out to all my AP friends and my local LLL for help, ideas, support, etc. but NOTHING is working. I am at a loss on how to gently teach him to sleep without nursing. He WON'T let DH be his bedtime buddy. Even if I leave home he will wait up until I get home. I had to go to the ER for a migraine that temporarily blinded me and he waited to go to sleep until I got home at 11. I've recruited mom, I've worked the Dr. Sears and Dr. Gordon approaches, I've tried so many things my head is spinning.

Does anyone have a dc like mine? Am I all alone in this world? Why is weaning so easy for others and so difficult for me? Will I ever sleep and feel well rested enough to have my baby in Nov? Will ds ever be a good sleeper? Am I depriving him of learning how?

Help me!


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## Shazer (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm not familiar with all of the approaches . . . so sorry if you've already tried this . . .

ON what level does ds communicate? I remember reading someplace that saying to dc that your boobs (or whatever name your child knows them as) need to go to sleep at night and to reinforce that concept throughout the day with the help of dp.

And I don't know if this has any merit, but maybe when he wants to nurse frequently, offer him something else pleasurable instead.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Could it be 2yr old molars coming in? Those were AWFUL around here...

-Angela


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

poor tired frustrated pregnant mama! (((((((big hug))))) to you.

my youngest weaned 2 years ago, but i still remember nursing my first when i was pg with my 2nd and feeling so totally wiped out, physically and emotionally. both of my kids liked to nurse every hour or so thru the night until they were night weaned and it nearly killed me. (i bet you could go back thru these archives and find an old old post of mine saying just that).

i think that we (as AP mamas) do so much for our children and give so much to them and sometimes doing so takes a lot out of us (of course we gain a lot as well). one thing i can see about myself in retrospect is that it took me a while to learn that taking care of myself (even when it involved something that my kids might not like) was also important. i wish i'd learned earlier how to better balance my needs and my kids needs. i think i got way more stressed than i had to.

anyway, what i'm trying to do is validate your need for sleep and maybe a little space at night too. after 21 months of wonderful AP, i'm certain that your little sweetie feels secure in your love and closeness, and is well attached. nightweaning at this point (although it may be painful for you all and may take some time) is not going to harm him. but IMO, not nightweaning may well harm you. you don't want to go into your birthing time more exhausted than you have to be. you have a new babe that also needs your care and love, and needs you to be rested. and YOU need the rest as well. there is nothing wrong with taking care of yourself. you matter too.

so i would suggest going back to the jay gordon plan for nightweaning. it can and does work if you stick with it rigidly. put on a shirt and tuck it into some leggings, get your little one a sippy cup with water, pick a 6 hour period to start with (we liked 11-5) and just do it. tell him whatever you need to help him deal with it (mama's boobies don't make milk when mr. sun is asleep, mamas boobies need to rest, etc. are common ones which take the "blame" off of you). he will certainly not like it. but he can't possibly know how much you NEED your rest. he's likely only thinking about what he wants, and that's okay. but as dr. gordon says at some point, you teach the child that the needs of the family also matter. you move from being child-centered to being family-centered. this is a healthy balance.

the thing about the gordon plan, though, is that you have to stick with it. you just tell yourself that this is going to happen and you do it. i guarentee you he will get it when he sees that you are serious. it took a month with my kids and that month was hell and we were more tired than before. but after that, it was over, and all of us stopped being sleep deprived (including the kids). it is not cruel or mean to sit lovingly by your child while they cry about not getting what they want. this is totally different than CIO.

okay, i'm rambling...sorry. good luck mama.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny's mama* 
the thing about the gordon plan, though, is that you have to stick with it. you just tell yourself that this is going to happen and you do it. i guarentee you he will get it when he sees that you are serious. it took a month with my kids and that month was hell and we were more tired than before. but after that, it was over, and all of us stopped being sleep deprived (including the kids). it is not cruel or mean to sit lovingly by your child while they cry about not getting what they want. this is totally different than CIO.

okay, i'm rambling...sorry. good luck mama.

I agree that she needs to get some rest, but I disagee that it's okay to sit by and deny your child comfort because you think they don't "need" it. I don't really think it's THAT different from CIO.

Plenty of toddler that age *need* to nurse at night for any number of reasons.

-Angela


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I agree that she needs to get some rest, but I disagee that it's okay to sit by and deny your child comfort because you think they don't "need" it. I don't really think it's THAT different from CIO.

Plenty of toddler that age *need* to nurse at night for any number of reasons.

-Angela


and i would disagree that the dr. jay gordon plan for nightweaning involves "denying your child comfort." you are offerring them a DIFFERENT kind of comfort. just because you stop nursing doesn't mean that you stop offerring comfort. patting, back rubbing and singing (and heck, just laying next to them are all comfort measures. nursing is not the ONLY acceptable form of giving a child comfort, and it sounds like this mama could really use a break from night nursing.

even if i did agree with you on whether a 21 month old "needs" or "wants" (big difference) to nurse at night (which i don't), i still think that a pregnant mama's need for sleep FAR outweighs an almost 2 year old's "need" or "want" to nurse in the middle of the night.


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## tsume (Jun 4, 2005)

Erin, do you want to wean? If that is something that you really want to do then it's one thing, but it sounds like all you want is a good night's sleep.

I don't have any advice but I can relate my experience. When we were pregnant with our second I tried nightweaning our first. I had similar fears as you did - boychik nursed to sleep woke up every hour at night to nurse, nursed, nursed, nursed all day long. I was overwhelmed thinking of having that PLUS a newborn!

I don't know what happened but DS started sleeping through the night. He would still nurse to sleep and a month before our EDD (he was 20 months at the time) I would let him nurse before we got into bed and while in bed I said nurse was nigh-nights and we could snuggle or he could snuggle with Daddy and he had a sippy of water and 3 crackers. It was a tough first week but we worked through that.

Our second still wakes at night at almost 4. While pregnant with her sister last year we started having Daddy put her to sleep when I could not. She hated that and would scream to sleep while Daddy held her, listened to her and loved her. There were some nights when I mentally could not nurse her to sleep. I hated hearing her cry but there was nothing left of me to give. And it didn't happen every night.

We tried all the AP plans out there and NOTHING worked for us. And your babe will be here in 6 months. That's a long time. He could be sleeping 12 hour stretches and going to sleep by himself in 6 months.

I would just try to take it one day at a time and get as much rest as you can during the day. Are you at home with DC? If so maybe cut back on some activities or let DS play in a safe place while you rest. With my first I would lock us in the bedroom where it was totally safe, and he had some water, snack and toys and I would take a nap while he played around me. It was totally boychik proof.

Do you have a babysitter or a mother's helper in the nabe that could come and play with DS in your home while you rested for an hour or two?

My brain is all scattered, but you are not alone and you are a fantastic mom.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Actually I think it's quite cruel and not that different from CIO at all. I'm shocked that Jay Gordon is giving that advice.

Many many toddlers needs to nurse for physiological reasons, not just emotional ones.

And since when are emotions NOT important.

When I am especially sleep deprived, I arrange for a playdate with a nap. The nap is for me. My ds plays with his friend, my friend watches him, and I sleep.

Or Noni comes over. And same thing.

Things change so much when they are that age. By the time your new baby is here, you will be wondering where your cuddly little guy is.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny's mama* 
even if i did agree with you on whether a 21 month old "needs" or "wants" (big difference) to nurse at night (which i don't), i still think that a pregnant mama's need for sleep FAR outweighs an almost 2 year old's "need" or "want" to nurse in the middle of the night.


Both of my children would be DEAD if I had force weaned them the way you are suggesting.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny's mama* 
the thing about the gordon plan, though, is that you have to stick with it. you just tell yourself that this is going to happen and you do it. i guarentee you he will get it when he sees that you are serious. it took a month with my kids and that month was hell and we were more tired than before. but after that, it was over, and all of us stopped being sleep deprived (including the kids). it is not cruel or mean to sit lovingly by your child while they cry about not getting what they want. this is totally different than CIO.


The thing with something like that taking a MONTH of hell,as you refer to it,personally,I couldn't do that.







Very recently,I was ready to throw the towel in completely with nursing my 2.5 yr old ds,that's how bad it was getting to be,like the OP,minus a pregnancy,lol. I'm pretty lazy,and a month of being MORE sleep deprived and miserable than we already were would have just throw me over the edge into total insanity. Not to mention that I just couldn't put ds through that.









Honestly,this is not what the OP is going to want to hear,I am sure,but I would just ride it out the best you can,because if something like sitting by and watching your child cry could take a month to work,is it really *that* bad the way it is now,kwim? Is that really something you could do to your dc? Not saying it would take a month for ALL kids,but from the way the OP describes the situation,it doesn't sound like it is going to be easy.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny's mama* 
nursing is not the ONLY acceptable form of giving a child comfort, and it sounds like this mama could really use a break from night nursing.

Just because you call what you're doing comfort, doesn't mean it's comforting for the child. If they're crying and crying and you're choosing not to comfort them in a way that actually gives them comfort (nursing) then that's no better than CIO IMO.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *L&IsMama* 
sure,but I would just ride it out the best you can,because if something like sitting by and watching your child cry could take a month to work,is it really *that* bad the way it is now,kwim? Is that really something you could do to your dc? Not saying it would take a month for ALL kids,but from the way the OP describes the situation,it doesn't sound like it is going to be easy.









:

-Angela


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Though I said that a few weeks back & got flamed to Hades.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Just because you call what you're doing comfort, doesn't mean it's comforting for the child. If they're crying and crying and you're choosing not to comfort them in a way that actually gives them comfort (nursing) then that's no better than CIO IMO.

-Angela

Exactamundo.

And there is little difference in what a baby (which a toddler is a baby that walks) needs and wants. More difference than say a neonate, but not by much.








to the OP. FWIW, it doesn't always help once they are weaned either. Certain kids are better sleepers than others.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 







Though I said that a few weeks back & got flamed to Hades.

At least you'll be in good company. And Abimommy and her dd will be there too. It will be one. hot. party.







:


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## bunny's mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 
Both of my children would be DEAD if I had force weaned them the way you are suggesting.


mamaverdi, i don't understand how a 2 year old child could DIE from not nursing for a 6 hour period in the middle of the night.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 
At least you'll be in good company. And Abimommy and her dd will be there too. It will be one. hot. party.







:









:


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 
Actually I think it's quite cruel and not that different from CIO at all. I'm shocked that Jay Gordon is giving that advice.


Once I read the whole Gordon sleep training techinque,I couldn't do it. I was miserable,but I just couldn't do it. I guess if you,general you,can,then whatever,but I think it depends alot on your child's personality,and with my ds's personality he would have literally made himself sick. I guess Dr Phil would tell me to clean it up and move on,but I digress.







:


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny's mama* 
mamaverdi, i don't understand how a 2 year old child could DIE from not nursing for a 6 hour period in the middle of the night.

Her children have an (as of yet un-specified) metabolic disorder that wasn't identified at that point.

-Angela


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bunny's mama* 
mamaverdi, i don't understand how a 2 year old child could DIE from not nursing for a 6 hour period in the middle of the night.

My children have an as yet undiagnosed metabolic disorder. They become very hypoglycemic without very constant intake. There are several metabolic disorders that are treated by nursing through the night, and it is only after the child weans/is weaned, that it is discovered.

And sometimes the way it is discovered is that you wake up to a dead child.

I hate to be harsh, but honestly, it is my worst fear that I will not wake up one night to feed my child. And that he won't be alive in the morning.

I've seen him in severe trouble with less span of time than 6 hours.

In 6 hours his body starts metabolising (eating) its own muscle because he cannot convert X nutrient into food.

Sure metabolic disease can be rare, but as statistics stand now, it is being recognized that they are more and more and more common. Depending on the disorder, sometimes age, larger body mass, etc makes it easier for the child to go longer periods of time.

And sometimes they end up with a g-tube and all night feeds.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

MV -


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

To the Dr. Phil comment:









And Angela said it as always much more concisely than I.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm in love with Dr. Phil, passionatly.







*swoon*


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 
To the Dr. Phil comment:









And Angela said it as always much more concisely than I.









Yeah... but you have all the fun details....









-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I'm in love with Dr. Phil, passionatly.







*swoon*

eeewwwwwww

-Angela


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Yeah & wanna know what makes it grosser?

I mean it.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

:!!!!!!!!!!!

Ick.

And um it's passionately.







:


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 







:!!!!!!!!!!!

Ick.

And um it's passionately.







:

HEY!









I'm in love with ANY man from TX though, really.

Do y'all have cowboys there?

*double swoon*

I've wanted to be southern/Texan all my life. My Dad was there a bit...if I thought DH could find a job there we'd be neighbors like...yesterday!









It's his voice...







:


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

:

There is a house across the street from me for sale or lease.







:

We have Angela's midwife who will do a VB4C


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 







:

There is a house across the street from me for sale or lease.







:

We have Angela's midwife who will do a VB4C

NO FAIR TEMPTING ME!

I've spent time in Port Arthur, I like it there...is that far? God, if I had a left nut, I'd give it to live where you do.







:


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

It'd be hard to TTC if you gave away your only nut.

The poor OP. I think we've hijacked her thread.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Oops...yeah...sorry OP.


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## gini1313 (Jul 5, 2006)

I unexpectedly had to leave my very attached ds overnight when he was 13 months (day procedure turned overnight stay). He was staying with grandparents, slept with grandma, and didn't even want pumped milk in a bottle. He had no problem with it at all. Surprised the heck out of me. So, your ds won't necessarily have a problem if you aren't there. Sometimes, they only think about nursing when mama is there...


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## ErinluvsKen (Dec 22, 2004)

Well I can't thank you ladies enough. You certainly have changed my perspective a bit. I need to stop the pity potty and just man up to my dc's needs like I always have. I guess I let sleep deprivation get the best of me. I should stop worrying about something that's 6 months away and just worry about what ds needs now.

You guys rock. Someone on another board led me here. I'm so glad she did.

THANKS!!!

Oh and all the Dr. Phil banter made me actually laugh out loud. I needed that!


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinluvsKen* 
Well I can't thank you ladies enough. You certainly have changed my perspective a bit. I need to stop the pity potty and just man up to my dc's needs like I always have. I guess I let sleep deprivation get the best of me. I should stop worrying about something that's 6 months away and just worry about what ds needs now.

Sleep deprivation is torture. I can totally relate to how you feel,and I was also at the point you are at,ready to just wean and be done with it. I just honestly couldn't put my ds through the stress of it,and I started thinking,the time it would take to have him weaned,and the stress of it all for both of us,this phase will pass faster. And it did.







He is now sleeping so much better for the most part. I really think it could be alot of things,teething,maybe an ear infection even? Who knows,but my point I guess is as hard as it is,it seems to improve right when I get to the point where I am ready to just throw the towel in. For us,anyways.


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## lerlerler (Mar 31, 2004)

While every kidlet is different, I'll let you know what worked for MINE.

I was kind of half-^&%ed trying to nightwean at 19 months - (pretending to sleep, etc - offering milk etc) to no avail - I was 5 months preg and touched out

and then one day I broke down crying (Not a ploy, I was freaking out)

so I sat down with DD during the daytime while everyone was calm and explained in very clear terms that mama needed more time without nursing her nenes hurt and she needed sleep

and she seemed to understand... from that night on, things changed dramatically.

She would ask for "nene" and I would offer a nice cup of hot milkies in a sippie cup... she'd ask again and I'd say "are you SURE? remember mama has owies"

and if she asked a third time (or cried at anytime) she'd get her ne nes.

believe it or not 2 weeks later she was night weaned... no crying

I've found that tricks, ploys, plans, bribes...never work with her for weaning, potty training, tantrums, etc.

but a good heart to heart works wonders!

I know, I'm lucky and you probably tried this, but Hope it helps


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinluvsKen* 
Oh and all the Dr. Phil banter made me actually laugh out loud. I needed that!









That's what we're here for!


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## tsume (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinluvsKen* 
Well I can't thank you ladies enough. You certainly have changed my perspective a bit. I need to stop the pity potty and just man up to my dc's needs like I always have. I guess I let sleep deprivation get the best of me. I should stop worrying about something that's 6 months away and just worry about what ds needs now.

For me when I change my perception and drop the "shoulds" things become much easier. When I accept to the fact that this is the season that we are in right now, well, things don't look so dark.

Easy for me to say now that I am on the other side. Going through I wanted the magic solution instead of mommas saying, "it's all about survival now".


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

"It's all about survival now" could be the theme of the MDC convention.








OP.

But Dr. Phil is NOT sexy.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 
But Dr. Phil is NOT sexy.









I'm TELLING!

MODS...mamaverdi said Dr. Phil's not sexy!







:


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 







I'm TELLING!

MODS...mamaverdi said Dr. Phil's not sexy!







:

Sorry, she's right... he's CREEPY.....

And not AP friendly, which makes him creepier.....

-Angela


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## ErinluvsKen (Dec 22, 2004)

I agree that Dr. Phil is not sexy.

Thanks for all the support ladies. I need it this week. Now on top of all of our sleep issues, DS had been battling a stomach bug for 48 hours now. I JUST CAN'T WIN!!!!!!!!!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinluvsKen* 
I agree that Dr. Phil is not sexy.

Thanks for all the support ladies. I need it this week. Now on top of all of our sleep issues, DS had been battling a stomach bug for 48 hours now. I JUST CAN'T WIN!!!!!!!!!

Aw









Stomach bugs are the WORST.

-Angela


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## ErinluvsKen (Dec 22, 2004)

They are the worst. Especially when they are too young to fully communicate how they are feeling and what they need. I just feel so bad!


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## GracesMama (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh my gosh, my 21 month old is exactly the same way. However, I am not pregnant, so I really feel for you.

I've been trying some suggestions from The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers with some success. It has mostly helped with getting her to fall asleep more quickly. It was taking 2 1/2 hours sometimes, and lately it's been only 45 minutes to an hour.

Last night was the first time we started working on the night time weaning...it was horrible. I nursed her to sleep (last night it took 2 hours!). I went to bed in a different room. She woke up 3 hours later, so I joined her in her bed and she nursed. Then she woke up 2 hours later wanting to nurse. I nursed her for awhile and just couldn't do it anymore, so went and got my husband. After 2 hours of her screeching off and on I just couldn't take it anymore and went in and nursed her. After she finally fell asleep, she woke up with a piercing scream. I feel so bad because I think she was afraid I'd deny her nursing again.

After one night of attempting night weaning, I give up!


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