# 6 mo. died after CIO episode



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Wow.
I just read an article in Good Housekeeping. It was written by the mother of three kids.
When her son was six months old, she couldn't take him nursing and crying at night anymore. So she decided to do a CIO.
She and her husband put the infant alone, in his room, in his crib. At 4:00 am, after screaming all night, he finally passed out. She sent her two elementary school kids off to school that morning......
and when she went to check on her infant, he had died of SIDS.








Why don't people realize that the reason babies "nightwake" is because it's nature's way of regulating their breathing and keeping them alive? While I feel really sorry for this mother, I am absolutely furious that she would ignore her baby like this and he died as a result.


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## ellstobo (Nov 5, 2003)

What issue was this article in? I would like to read that. Very sad!


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## Quickening (May 20, 2003)

that is not just sad, thats appalling that a small baby would be left to scream all night til 4am! It makes me sick!!!

I think CIO is a form of child abuse if the infant is left alone! Its one thing to hold the baby and let them cry if nothing else is working or if you're at your wits end..... but to go and leave them all alone in distress is shocking! That POOR baby!

I feel sorry the mother didn't know better and has to live with the consequences now.


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## zealsmom (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Quickening_
*

I feel sorry the mother didn't know better and has to live with the consequences now.*
and father too!

My god, how sad.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

And what about the school aged siblings? What lesson will they take from this?







for the whole family.


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

that is just heartbreaking. i have never understood how a mother can listen to her little one cry themselves to sleep. it goes against every fiber of my being. i think maternal instinct should always be followed...then you can't feel guilty later. i bet she wishes she had followed her instinct.







how horribly sad.


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

i would be really interested in reading that as well.


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## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

And possibly, after reading many books on CIO, the parents thought they were doing the "right" thing... very sad all around.

Or this could also be a case of mental disorder or stupid ego on the baby's parent's part, then claiming CIO as an excuse. Still SAD & unnecessary! poor kids


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

I read that article too and it broke my heart







I wish they would have put a little side discussion where they talk of the dangers of CIO and alternatives (cosleeping) but it wasn't even mentioned.

It was in the January 2004 issue of Good Housekeeping (with Nicole Kidman on the front)


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

I'm not surpised. Poor baby








CIO is childabuse!!!!


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## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

That is so sad. . . all I can think is that the last thing that baby remembers before dying is that he was in a dark place with noone to calm or comfort him, totally alone, and abandoned. He was probably glad to be leaving this world.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I read this thread last night and I can't stop thinking about it. I can't help thinking that these parents are culpable for their baby's death. How can they live with themselves? Do they feel responsible, or have they and those around them told themselves a story about how it wasn't their fault, it was an unforeseeable accident, blah blah blah?

I don't read the CIO stuff, but don't the CIO/sleep training books say leave them for 5 minutes to cry, then go to them, the next night 10, the next night 15, and so on....does anyone really advocate leaving them to scream for 6 or 8 hours until they pass out?

I just don't get it. Now I feel like I have to read this article for myself.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

That is so sad. I would like to get a look at that article as well. The sadder thing is there are many people who leave their infants alone for such a long time.


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## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Jane_ I don't read the CIO stuff, but don't the CIO/sleep training books say leave them for 5 minutes to cry, then go to them, the next night 10, the next night 15, and so on....does anyone really advocate leaving them to scream for 6 or 8 hours until they pass out?
Yes people actually advocate leaving them for hours. I had to quit reading my birth board on another site because the moms were saying it was sometimes necessary to let them cry for two hours or more.








And when someone offered alternatives she was flamed for not being supportive.


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## rlandnl (Aug 28, 2003)

I don't post here much, I'm shy IRL and on the internet I guess... but I jsut have this terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach after reading this. I will never understand how someone can listen to their baby cry and not go to them. It makes me sick.

My son si 7 months old and slept through the night from 7 weeks to 5.5 months (in our bed) and all of a sudden one night he started waking every hour or 2 and wanted to nurse. I am exhausted, there are nights I am frustrated, but never ever ever ever would I put him in his crib and leave him there. I nurse him no matter how tired I am, no matter how sore I am (because he is teething and chews as he falls asleep, or because he has nursed for 1 hour at a time all day) I do this because I am his mother, he has a need that needs to be met, and I will meet that need.

I am so sad for that baby.


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## rachdoll (Aug 18, 2003)

That is so sad, but hopefully parents and parents-to-be will read that article and realize that CIO is a horrible, abusive practice that goes against everything God and nature intended.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Paxetbonum_
*all I can think is that the last thing that baby remembers before dying is that he was in a dark place with noone to calm or comfort him, totally alone, and abandoned.*
Me too.


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## juicylucy (May 20, 2002)

I blame morons like Ezzo for this. People read this c**p and think that's the way things are done. People are scared to trust their own instincts.

Poor, poor baby. Poor, poor family. I can't even imagine the pits of hell these parents are going to have to go through.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Ezzo and Dr Phil and his "I know what's best for you so I'm going to kick your butt to get you to do it" buddies.

That poor baby to die alone and afraid....

And my SIL was bugging me today about cosleeping with a 24month old and a newborn by the end of summer - you're not going to do it!!! AUGH!! If she wasn't my SIL I would have gotten my beotch on.

That's an article any parent who cosleeps should keep handy to show to sucky service workers when they decide to "inspect" the home for "hidden dangers" to children.







My issues of Mothering mag helped out last year. They were great for getting them off my back.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

How. Could. Anyone. Do. That????

I don't care if I was a die hard Ezzo fan, his best friend, or even his wife I couldn't do it! Even if I thought CIO was the greatest thing in the ENTIRE world I would not be able to hear my baby cry and not respond. Someone would have to physically restrain me from getting him. And I'd be fighting them. I hear Orion crying in the car for a 10 minute drive home and after a minute or two my hands are gripping the steering wheel really hard, I'm gritting my teeth, and all of my muscles are tense because I just want to make my baby feel better. I couldn't imagine hearing him cry and doing nothing for him!


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

I have read the article and thought I would explain it a little better. This was the families third baby, and since then they have adopted or fostered many other children. It's been about 14 years since baby Danny died. The article is more about how the adoptions healed the family from the void of losing a child. The CIO causing his death is a very small part, I think I read the part over about 5 times because I couldn't believe what I read







They didn't get into the dangers at all about CIO


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

...and about parents who leave babies for hours.
My MIL left my husband (when he was littel baby) in his crib all night screaming and IN HIS OWn VOMIT. He woke with red swollen eyes. She tells me this story often b/c she is PROUD that he never woke at night again. She is not sorry she says, ">>ANd he never did again" all smug. Makes me sick everytime I think of it.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

EVEN if a person did beleive in CIO, who in their right mind wouldnt go check on the child after all was quite to make sure they where ok and covered up for the night?


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## Momma's Arms (Dec 1, 2003)

Wow. That is sick. Just sick. That a family could do that. And even worse that it could just be glossed over- like it was insignificant. Child abuse that leads to death= murder. Why is this acceptable?

Maybe my imagination is running loose, but has anyone else read stories about families with SIDS cases that were later proven to be child abuse? I've seen tv movies and read articles about how the families were later found to be suffucating the kids. There were even a few cases brought to trial where there were multiple deaths among siblings all from the stressed out mom and her pillow. Doesn't it seem odd that the child would cry for that long and then die? I know how stressful that would have to be on a babe. But, is it really enough to cause death?

OT, who is Ezzo and why is this person so evil?


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

Momma's Arms -- http://www.ezzo.info/ alot of info about ezzo and why he is one of the most horrible men to ever call himself an "expert".


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## juicylucy (May 20, 2002)

wow, I thought the article would be about the dangers of CIO. I guess they wouldn't put that in such a mainstream magazine. How sad.
quote "That is so sad. . . all I can think is that the last thing that baby remembers before dying is that he was in a dark place with noone to calm or comfort him, totally alone, and abandoned."

exactly paxetbonum


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I'd have to go back and look through to see what "form" of CIO these parents used. I'm not sure if they went in to comfort him or not. Do you know, Astrid? I can't quite recall.
Either way, I, too, was shocked that there was no mention of how babies nightwake for a reason...... to regulate themselves and their breathing patterns. I guess that since it was written by the mother, she either didn't want to admit this or doesn't know this.
Either way........ like paxetbonum said...... dying that way is just so heartbreaking.


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## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

6 MONTHS OLD???????????
I'm ill, I have nothing to add.

Stupid, stupid people.


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## JessicaSpalding (May 24, 2003)

THIS month's edition, eh? I think we should all write letters to the editor.


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momma's Arms_
*Maybe my imagination is running loose, but has anyone else read stories about families with SIDS cases that were later proven to be child abuse? I've seen tv movies and read articles about how the families were later found to be suffucating the kids. There were even a few cases brought to trial where there were multiple deaths among siblings all from the stressed out mom and her pillow. Doesn't it seem odd that the child would cry for that long and then die? I know how stressful that would have to be on a babe. But, is it really enough to cause death?*
I remember seeing a Law and Order where the woman had 3 natural children and 1 adopted child die from SIDS, till they finaly figured out that she had that biproxi syndrom (can't spell) where she was killing her babies for the attention. I know its not all true, but those are based on real life stories... so so sad.

I also can't see calling the parents these terrible horrible people. They thought what they were doing was best, even if it was wrong. It isn't like they knew they were going to hurt him. It's mainstream to CIO so they probably just had no clue.

JMHO though.


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## stonelove (May 6, 2003)

OH WOW...this is sooooooo horrible. I can only imagine how this woman and her family must feel. Do you think there might be some sort of legal consequences? In the least, this is child neglect, if not abuse or some sort of indirect manslaughter.

People often tell me that I have to let my little Josiah CIO if he is ever going to learn to sleep and I know that is not true. I slept with my mommie when I was little and it was the most beautiful and bond producing thing she ever could have done. Even as I grew older, I would occasionally get back in the bed with her to talk and fall asleep laughing and watching TV. Almost like a slumber party between buddies.

To think that this mother will miss whatever wonderful moments she could have had with her child so that she could get a few more winks.

I did not even know that die hard CIO advocates say leave a child that is only 6 months old to cry until 4 am. They seriously need to clarify whatever prescription they are providing parents. But don't you think she should have known better considering that she has 2 older children.

I am running on...but I just feel so strongly after having read something so horrible.


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*








I'd have to go back and look through to see what "form" of CIO these parents used. I'm not sure if they went in to comfort him or not. Do you know, Astrid? I can't quite recall.
.*
They would always run in and comfort him, but figured since he was six months old they would let him CIO







And they were both family doctors too.


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by stonelove_
*OH WOW...this is sooooooo horrible. I can only imagine how this woman and her family must feel. Do you think there might be some sort of legal consequences?*
Nope, this happened about 14 years ago and since then they have adopted 5 kids.


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## hvl25 (Jan 28, 2003)

I saw that too. They ended up adopting I think 3 or 4 other kids after that.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Paxetbonum_
*That is so sad. . . all I can think is that the last thing that baby remembers before dying is that he was in a dark place with noone to calm or comfort him, totally alone, and abandoned. He was probably glad to be leaving this world.*
OMG, that statment has me bawling my eyes out!







That poor little baby.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by hunnybumm_
*I remember seeing a Law and Order where the woman had 3 natural children and 1 adopted child die from SIDS, till they finaly figured out that she had that biproxi syndrom (can't spell) where she was killing her babies for the attention.*
Munchausen by proxy. I just read an article two days ago about a mom who was caught injecting fecal matter into her daughter's IV.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Astrid_
*They didn't get into the dangers at all about CIO





















*
Well, that bites! Hopefully they will get enough letters to the editors to do an article about the dangers of CIO.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by hipumpkins_
*She is not sorry she says, ">>ANd he never did again" all smug. Makes me sick everytime I think of it.*
The next time she says that your hubby should say something like "I think that sort of thing goes on in nursing homes too, so you'll get your chance."


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## veganmum (Jan 19, 2004)

That is awful. I know this may sound harch to some, but I seriously hope that the family was charged with neglect. Letting a baby cry for that long is trully a crime. I feel very sorry for them that they have to live through the consequence, but I also feel it's important to make something like this a crime so that other people wake up and realise that CIO (at least to this extent) is a form of child abuse and the results can be serious.


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## Momma's Arms (Dec 1, 2003)

I don't think it's harsh at all. Their actions led to that poor baby's death. That is manslaughter.

I don't think that they were charged with anything. No one has mentioned it if they were. I haven't read the article. Were they even investigated?


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

Were they even investigated?

Doubt it. The article didn't mention anything about it and six months later they adopted a baby.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by hunnybumm_

I also can't see calling the parents these terrible horrible people. They thought what they were doing was best, even if it was wrong. It isn't like they knew they were going to hurt him. It's mainstream to CIO so they probably just had no clue.

JMHO though. [/B]
I don't buy that at all. I know a mom who spanks her 11 month old (take off her diaper and lays her over her knee to do it)
She also thinks she is doing the best.
Any person who doesn't see the dangers of letting a baby cio to sleep like that has no business having a baby.


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## Casimir's_Mama (Aug 18, 2003)

Good Lord. I can't believe so many of you are blaming a parent for this tragedy. I hate cio too, but what I've read here is distrubing. Must be nice, being perfec.t


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## Momma's Arms (Dec 1, 2003)

So, if a stranger walked into your home tonight and took the life of your child, would you not blame them for their mistake because no one's perfect? IF a mom suffering with PPD drowns her five kids is she not to blame for her "mistake"? If my oldest daughter strikes out at my infant in a jealous rage, should I turn my cheek at the violence? How can you NOT blame the parents? They let their child cry itself to DEATH! What is ok about that? Why should we console them? Can you imagine how cold and heartless a parent would have to be to listen to their child's desperate cries for hours on end and not respond to them? These people to not deserve tender wishes. They deserve criminal charges and jail time.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

What happened to that baby is horrible, but it is wrong to assume that the parents loved that child any less than any of us love our own children. I disagree with a lot of mainstream parenting practices, and I do think that some of the more extremem ones (such as spanking) are abusive, but I do not for one second think that parents who do these things love their children less than I do.

If parents whose misguided actions lead their children to harm are to be "punished," how will this help others - or even the parents themselves? Why not educate these people about the dangers of certain things and have them travel to hospital maternity wards and schools and daycares and teach other parents how to keep their children safe and secure?


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

OMG how terribly sad. Everybody cuddle those babies and keep them close.

Meg


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I know all of this happened years ago but I want to add my 2 cents...

the parents likely suffered a lot. the people who need to be punished are the so-called experts who ignore scientific evidence and push parents to do CIO and other forms of de-tachment parenting. I also think the people who do parenting techniques like cio and spanking (and shaming etc etc) think they are doing what is best for their kids (especially regarding the idea that we need to force them into independence so they can get along in society). if we (we being society I guess) approach these incidents on a one by one basis, punishing the parents, then it will continue forever. if the people who advocate this stuff are held accountable and debunked, then it might stop.

Oh yeah, and those of us who know better gotta keep on talking about it and sharing what we know!


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I disagree, i don't think those parents love their children the same as I love my children. Just reading this thread, and telling my husband about it, i started to CRY. How could they let their baby cry for so long? How could they? Could you listen to your spouse sob for comfort in another room without going in to comfort them? I don't think so. I think parents are so eager to have their life "back to normal" that they forget to love their babies with the intensity that is natural and normal.

I feel sorry for the other children in that household. I know how much my older children love my newest baby and I can't even imagine how horrible that would be for them.

And to the other poster, it isn't about being perfect. I am FAR from perfect. I yell at my older kids when I'm frustrated with them. I don't always make them do their chores because I am lazy, etc. But no matter what, I love my children every minute of the day and if they are in pain, physical or emotional i ALWAYS stop and comfort them. Middle of the night, cooking dinner, whenever.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

I guess part of what i was trying to get at is that I don't think it's useful to demonize the parents. Ok, ok, I admit it, I don't like them, don't want to meet them, think it stinks that they got to adopt with no questions asked. It stinks that that article basically ignored that the parenting choices they made were responsible for theit child's death and did not dscuss that at all.

BUT!

I would really like it if this CIO crap became very very outdated. Frowned upon. considered child abuse by the mainstream, not just those of us out here on the parenting fringe. and a major step in that direction is to hold the people who validate these types of parenting techniques accountable for the results.

the other thing too is that I really want to move towards compassion as a strong value. I think compassion is not much valued by our society and it's a huge problem. (really, if compassion was a strong value no one would CIO!) and to me that includes compassion for people who have made terrible terrible mistakes.

and who knows how much anyone loves their children. there's no measuring mechanism I'm aware of.


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## XM (Apr 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Amywillo_
*The next time she says that your hubby should say something like "I think that sort of thing goes on in nursing homes too, so you'll get your chance."*
Amy, you rock... you should totally say that to your evil MIL!


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

I don't recall any of the moms here claiming to be perfect... just not abusive.

I do think CIO is abusive. Being a parent involves comforting your children and helping them feel safe in a big scary world. A six month old doesn't understand that they are supposed to sleep all night by themselves and leaving them screaming and crying all alone in a dark room isn't teaching them anything. He was just a tiny baby alone and scared. How anybody could leave him is beyond me.

But I don't think the parents should have went to jail. 15 years ago, this was the advice given out by dr.s and friends and this hasn't changed!!!! I wish the article had talked about the dangers of CIO. I wish the parents had become non-CIO advocates.


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## Casimir's_Mama (Aug 18, 2003)

Well one certainly comes across as thinking oneself perfect when one is so self-righteous and judgmental of other parents, particularly in such tragic circumstances. Expressing nothing but blame and contempt for parents who suffered such a horrible loss and likely stifling guilt is a special low. Don't you think that the parents already feel lower than low? Don't you think they loved their child? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, she was just exhausted with her other children, sleep-deprived, and maybe didn't realize that it was a matter of life or death? Isn't there thread after thread here about sleeping problems and even several where women admit they've thought of letting their child cry it out? How would she have known this was going to happen?? It's so easy to wag our fingers with hindsight, a different baby, different life. I find it upsetting to find this kind of shoulda-known-better attitude HERE of all places, because it's the same attitude that you will hear if, god forbid, something tragic should happen to your child ever. Let's save our vitriole for the moronic experts and doctors who spew this parenting philosophy crap and not blame the parents/victims.
Not everyone has the same parenting philosophies. I would think at boards titled MOTHERING there would not be so much mother blaming and bashing, even when their parenting practices do differ so drastically from one's own. I am adamently against crying it out, but I know some great parents who do it. I don't get it, I don't approve of it, but I would never dream of asserting that they don't deserve their children. I don't think it's on par with smoking crack. Do you even know if this death was connected to crying it out? Do you even have any compassion, as a fellow mother, for this woman? at all? Don't you think she feels this loss, believe it or not, MORE than you??
I've had to defend my no-cio and other ap parenting practices many many times, and I'm sick of it, and I hate the judgment. Honestly, I think I'm right in not doing it. I think I'm a better parent for it. But I really don't like the idea of turning that kind of judgment right back at other mothers. We face so much of it already, don't we? Isnt' that why half of us are here?
Perhaps we just disagree in that I don't think cio is as abusive as some of you do. But keep in mind that it IS a mainstream parenting practice. That doesn't make it right, at all-but it means that a lot of otherwise well-meaning and loving parents do it. They don't deserve to be painted with such a nasty brush, especially in these circumstances.


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## elismom (Dec 3, 2001)

Casi's Mama--Excellent post, thanks for saying it!! ITA.

(P.S. I'm goodtwin elsewhere)


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadie_sabot_
*I know all of this happened years ago but I want to add my 2 cents...

the parents likely suffered a lot. the people who need to be punished are the so-called experts who ignore scientific evidence and push parents to do CIO and other forms of de-tachment parenting. I also think the people who do parenting techniques like cio and spanking (and shaming etc etc) think they are doing what is best for their kids (especially regarding the idea that we need to force them into independence so they can get along in society). if we (we being society I guess) approach these incidents on a one by one basis, punishing the parents, then it will continue forever. if the people who advocate this stuff are held accountable and debunked, then it might stop.

Oh yeah, and those of us who know better gotta keep on talking about it and sharing what we know!*








This is how I feel too.

When parents post here, exhausted and tempted to try CIO they get options to try, support and hugs. We have all been there at some stage of our childrens life. So why couldn't that family have tried some options? Her parents lived really close by... They had people staying with them... Im sure one of them could have helped out
I hope it doesn't sound like Im judging the parents. They listened to the advice that is commonly given (and sadly still is given). I know they felt unbelievable pain and grief and anger when they lost their son.

I have heard stories of CIO where the children cry so hard they vomit, then have to sleep in it. In my opinion, that is abuse.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

The next time she says that your hubby should say something like "I think that sort of thing goes on in nursing homes too, so you'll get your chance."

I love it!!!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Please folks, I see a lot of people jumping to conclusions here. Remember that this is a magazine article and I am sure it was edited to make it fit the space allowed. I'm a newspaper editor and I'm sure I routinely edit out facts that someone else thinks are vitally important. So we don't know if this mother checked on her baby or not. We don't know if there was an investigation or an autopsy or whatever.

There isn't any evidence that the CIO CAUSED the death. If CIO did that, there would be more infant deaths since the majority of people are given the advise to do this. I don't like it or agree with it or do it, but it is mainstream advise given out by many (if not most) pediatritians today.

Lets hope that everything that a subset of parents think is abuse is never legally classified as such because I guarentee that most of us would find ourselves on the "wrong" end of that deal really quickly. Everyone makes decisions about their family to try to do what is best. We all need to respect that if we expect respect in return.

Edited because I skip words sometimes.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm sorry but I think that is just crap. Excusing abuse because its mainstream is ridiculous. Saying someone isn't educated so they don't know any better is ridiculous. What about taking responsibility for one's own actions? I don't give a damn if every friggin person in the world is telling you to let your child CIO you do NOT have to do it. You do have a brain in your head and if you have children hopefully a heart. I can't stand how people excuse all these "mainstream" abuses as oh they don't know any better that is what they were taught. Bullshit! Anyone can do better by their child if they want to. I was raised in mainstream society with no exposure WHATSOEVER to any AP practices. But I had a child and instinctively knew not to do those abusive things. I am no different than anyone else or better than anyone else. Everyone screws up yes but accepting ABUSE in the name of mainstream so it's okay is perpostorous and WRONG! CIO is abuse plain and simple! How the hell can anyone argue otherwise. Tell you what since we've had the nursing home reference. You go take your aged mother to the nursing home. Strap her to a bed (akin to being trapped in a crib (I do use a crib but not for CIO) ) and then leave her by herself. She wants something? Those workers will not go to her. She needs to learn to comfort herself. She screams and screams and screams and no one comes. But ahhh, the difference. Your mother has a voice so she tells someone about what has happened and they get brought up on criminal charges, lose their license and the nursing home is shut down. This is a horrifying prospect. Or how about you? You get admitted to hospital for something and no one comes to help you when you scream? It would NEVER be accepted! So why in the hell is it okay to do it to our MOST important members of society, our innocent children, our future? All in the name of mainstream? Screw it, I won't accept that!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Heavenly I totally agree!

Being left til 4am screaming is even *against* what normal CIO advocates would be accepting of! Even if that child went to "bed" at midnight that's FOUR HOURS of crying! I don't know about anyone else's child, but if I can't get to Orion (like driving) or figure out what's wrong with him he's hysterical in 15 minutes, tops. Catching his breath, coughing, gasping for breath, snot pouring out of his nose, legs and arms flailing, face beet red, tears pooling in his little ears, ect. I couldn't imagine what he'd be like crying for hours!

I do agree its very hard when you're exhausted. I have sat with Orion in my arms and bawled with him (before I learned to nurse side laying) because I was SO tired. Dh took a few half days from work to tend to DS so I could sleep for a few hour stretch (nurse him, hand off to dad, sleep, repeat).

I do feel horrible for the parents. I do feel sad for them. I'm not saying I don't. And I'm not saying they were PURPOSEFULLY trying to abuse their child. But they were and did. I feel horribly that we all live in a society that largely doesn't think for itself. I do feel that so many people are just sheep and do what they are told without thinking. Of *course* if you think of it like Heavenly stated its clear its abuse. But SO many parents just *don't* think about things like this at ALL. Its straight from the baby book/doctor to putting it into practice. I don't know why you wouldn't think about it, but just like so many people think formula is just as good as breastmilk, never even ponder the thought of having a highly medicated birth just 'because', ect, ect, they do the same thing with how they raise their children.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:

I know a mom who spanks her 11 month old (take off her diaper and lays her over her knee to do it)
This makes me absolutely sudder. Spanking an 11 month old notwithstanding, but taking her diaper off to do it????????????? The vision of it makes me sick to my stomach.


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## BrettsMama (Oct 17, 2003)

That is unbearably sad.







When I think of how sad and lonely and terrifying that poor baby's last few hours were, it's even sadder.









I am a die hard anti CIO and a lot of people around me don't understand. I don't understand how anyone could EVER, EVER leave their baby alone to suffer this way.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Cultural relativism is all very well and good ("dont judge others, none of us is perfect, I'm sure they loved their kids, it's the experts' fault, not theirs") but where do you draw the line? Are there any lines? What about all the devout Christians who honestly believe it is God's way to beat their children with belts? What about the mothers all around the world (not only in Africa, but also in Indonesia, etc.) who allow, nay, require their daughters to undergo female genital mutilation because it's "cleaner" (and hey, let's not even get into male circumcision in this country). Should we blame "experts" and cultural forces? Yes. But there is also such a thing as parental and personal responsibility.

I believe these parents are morally culpable for the death of their baby, even if they were never held legally accountable. I am not perfect, but I don't believe I am required to be perfect in order to have values by which I can judge whether an action is right or wrong. If we were required to be perfect in order to set values and standards, we'd be living in an anarchic society.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

the problem is, in those cultures where FGM is still being performed, families that have gotten smart and not done it, have found that their daughters can't get married because they are "unclean." So these teenaged and young women who were spared the surgery can't get married in their culture because of pressure from their betroved's families.

So, some are resorting to having the surgery.

And those who were forced to have it as a child - those ones are getting married.

So sad really... and shameful. Stupid patrionic mysoginistic sadistic culture.


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## Kristine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Casimir's_Mama_
*Don't you think that the parents already feel lower than low?*
Why should I care how the parents feel? At least they're alive. Which is more than can be said for their poor baby, who just wanted some comfort. These parents deserve contempt and nothing else. And now they won't have to worry about responding to a crying baby anymore.


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

So sad this happened. I still can't quite comprehend it.

None of us can know what really happened that night, nor what the family was thinking or going through then or now. As many of you have said, we've all had times when we thought we'd reached our breaking point.

I myself had to let my daughter (now 18 mo/.) sleep in her crib when she was 7 mo. because she wanted to nurse every 1-2 hours and as a single mother I just couldn't function anymore on no sleep. But during the transition, I could only let her cry for about 1-5 minutes tops before I went to her to hold her, turn on her lullaby music, nurse her and sing her to sleep. She actually now loves her bed after only a few days of getting used to it, and will go to it to climb in and likes to hang out and play before going to sleep sometimes. But that is another topic...

The reason why I'm posting a reply is because I wish that we could take all of this energy we are building up on this issue and channel it to do some good. As sad as it is, that baby is dead. It was 14 years ago.

There are many babies that are now alive and being born everyday. Let's talk to our neighbors, friends, family about the values of being there for our children, through all stages of their development. Let's be good examples. Let's use our love and compassion that moves us to be so outraged about this baby to help other families. In this forum, what good does it do to blame these parents or even the so called "experts" who promote CIO? Does it bring back that baby? Does it help other babies not have to suffer through CIO? It only helps others if we promote the value of not using CIO by our own example, by practicing love, compassion, and understanding.

The only thing that will come from blame, anger, and vengence is blame, anger, and vengence.

Love,
kb


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

ITA. You have to start with yourself and your family. Then be an example to others. It is horrible and it's natural to be outraged but we must "gently educate".


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## mamaofthreeboys (Dec 16, 2003)

This made my stomach drop! I feel so terrible for everyone involved. Baby, parents, kids, etc......hopefully their tragic story will help others that feel that crying it out is a good solution.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

I totally agree with Casimir's Mama. I can't believe some of the responses I've read. Who are any of us to sit in judgement? Heaven forbid something as ghastly as this were to happen to any one of us here and we be judged in the same manner. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. The bottom line is that at the end of the day we are all commenting about an incident that was brought to us through media. NONE of us were there, NONE of us know all the details.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

One of the reasons I would not CIO or even entertain the idea is because I moved in to military housing right after one baby died because of asphyxiation. The parents went out to the patio so they did not have to hear/listen. When the baby quieted they though she was finally asleep, in reality it had vomited and choked.

I was not pregnant at the time but I never left my baby cry unwatched. I will admit because of my own poor self and lack of support, that I sat my son down in a crib and walked across the room to re-group, but he never cried unwatched.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dreadmama_
*

The only thing that will come from blame, anger, and vengence is blame, anger, and vengence.
*
ITA


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"Heaven forbid something as ghastly as this were to happen to any one of us here and we be judged in the same manner"

This would never happen to me as I don't ABUSE my child!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Boy Heavenly I hope you are right, but I think you are forgetting something. There is NO evidence that the CIO and the death were related. None. They happened the same night. That was it. We don't konw if the baby died at 4 am when he stopped crying, or went to sleep. He could have died 3 hours later and the two things were totally unrelated. We don't know if the parents checked on the baby until 4. We don't know a lot of things about this. We do know, however, that SIDS doesn't seem to discriminate much.

No one understand all of what goes into SIDS. Yes, some incidents that are labled SIDS are something else. And some are just plain unexplained. It happens to children in cribs and it happens to children who co-sleep. As far as all of the research done so far, any one of us could lose an infant to SIDS. The jury is still out on whether cosleeping reduces or increases the risk. Ditto on a wide variety of other factors. So, please, lets be a little less hasty in judging others. And hug our kids extra tight tonight as they go to sleep.


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## 1stTimeMummytoLore (Jun 11, 2003)

I would have to say after all the compassionate support I have received here, I was very suprised to read some of the posts here and their total lack of compassion.

Perhaps if someone had compassionatly reached out to those tired and distraught parents to offer them the kind of support we get from each other here, they never would have resorted to such desperate measures.

I can understand with all the judgmental posts here, why we AP inclined parents are often judged with an equal amount of hostility. Whoever among us can bring ourselves to break that cycle of judgment and anger and hostility might just change the world one family at a time.

Kate


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## MidnightCafe (Oct 27, 2003)

Marsupialmom, I want you to know that I told your story about the baby who died from choking on his vomit to a friend of mine & it saved her baby's life. You posted this story a long time ago (I think it was you anyway) on the parentsplace breastfeeding board, and I told it to my friend. The very next day she couldn't get her son to take a nap. He was screaming & crying. She was very sleep deprived & she very much wanted to put him in his crib & walk away...just for a few minutes to cool off & then go back to him. She's a wonderful AP mom. Because I had told her this story, she made herself stay in the room talking to her baby after she laid him down (though, God knows, she wanted a break & was feeling really frustrated). Less than a minute after she put him down he began gagging & choking, and she picked him up & pulled a chunk of kleenex out of his mouth. He had managed to get a chunk of kleenex somehow when he was playing earlier & was now coughing it back up. If she had not been there he would not have been able to cough it out. She told me this story the very next week & thanked me for passing the story you told on to her.

So, thank you. I think this is the way we mothers can help keep these things from happening to other babies. We need to tell these stories, sad as they are, to help each other.


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## the_anti_grrrl (Jan 24, 2004)

That makes me want to cry. I really don't understand how someone could let there kids cry and cry and not comfort them? Babies are not capable of comforting themselves. I can't wait until my daughter is born so my husband and i can snuggle with her all night









She'll never have to be alone and upset and scared


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Momto1000,
Your link isn't working for some reason.
I think it's against board policy to bring a separate thread into a new discussion, but you'd have to double check. I'm not too sure.


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## Momof1000` (Jan 24, 2004)

the_anti_grrrl, sounds like you and your husband are going to make wonderful parents.

There's nothing better than comforting and snuggling your babies.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by moonshine_
*This makes me absolutely sudder. Spanking an 11 month old notwithstanding, but taking her diaper off to do it????????????? The vision of it makes me sick to my stomach.*
Ditto! It made me queasy to read that. Any kind of punishment that involves removing clothing is sexual abuse to me. I know some may disagree, but that is just how it feels to me.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Momto1000 discussing one thread on another like that isn't allowed.


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## Momof1000` (Jan 24, 2004)

oops...sorry. I didn't know that rule.







:

I just thought it was strange for someone to be judging when they themselves seem to be the person living in the glass house.

Thanks for the setting me on track.









Now how can I word this without stepping on toes? How about this? Heavenly...are you sure this could NEVER happen to you? Maybe you should think back about mistreating your children.


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## manitoba_mommy (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momof1000`_
*Now how can I word this without stepping on toes? How about this? Heavenly...are you sure this could NEVER happen to you? Maybe you should think back about mistreating your children.*
Um, maybe you should rephrase this. It sounds like you are accusing Heavenly of something and I am sure that is not your intent.

MM


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## Momof1000` (Jan 24, 2004)

Okay...that seems reasonable.

ummmmm...Before passing judgement...reread your previous posts. Besides, who are we to judge? We are just plodding along hoping that we don't ever find ourselves in one of these situations.


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## Astrid (Aug 9, 2002)

I understand that parents get exhausted. We have all been there, all felt so tired that we could barely keep our eyes open and honestly, for a while there I have no idea how I functioned on so little sleep. But leaving a baby crying for half the night isn't going to get anybody any sleep (unless you are wearing earplugs I guess) I can't imagine not going in to at least comfort a crying baby. there were at least 4 adults in the house and not one of them could have went in and rubbed his back? or rocked him a bit?

And I really don't understand why it is so forced upon us that babies must sleep through the night







: I don't sleep through the night. But when I wake up, I know I am in bed and it is still night time and I should probably go back to sleep. When a little baby wakes up, I imagine it would be a bit scary being alone in a dark room. Maybe their blanket fell off and they are cold? Maybe they are hungry?

**By the way, for those who haven't read the article, the author of it was the mother who lost her baby. So although it may have been slightly edited for publishing, the story was told in her own words.


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## Momof1000` (Jan 24, 2004)

I couldn't agree with you more. Babies cry for a reason...ALWAYS. Sometimes it is just to see that we are still there and sometimes there is really something wrong. Who wants to miss the opportunity of holding their baby and comforting her back to sleep? You are that baby's world, don't ever forget that.

Sure, we get tired (exhausted), we just have to remember that the baby has no idea how we are feeling. All our baby knows is that she is scared or cold or lonely or hungry. She also knows that when we show up...everything is better.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Wow! This is a horrible tragedy.

I can understand some posters view of non-judgement, but it is hard when you cannot understand CIO. I am a single mama who like Dreadmama could only last minutes before responding to my ds. I had to go and put headphones on one time and just could not stand it!! So, even though the CIO and the death were not found to be related I have a deep belief that babies cry for a reason and that ignoring their only way of communicating is wrong.

My heart does go out to this family because of their loss.


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Momof1000`_
*
Sure, we get tired (exhausted), we just have to remember that the baby has no idea how we are feeling. All our baby knows is that she is scared or cold or lonely or hungry. She also knows that when we show up...everything is better.*
I think there comes a point at which you have to take into consideration the mental health of the caregiver. I know my breaking point and I think knowing what I can and cannot handle is healthy. If I need a break it is better than hitting my child, kwim?

At some point, I think that primary caregivers have to stop carrying the world on their backs. Everyone needs a break. Everyone needs sleep. Babies do, too. There are ways to encourage good sleep habits that do not leave the child alone to cry, but may involve a crying child (patting the crying child's back, giving a gentle massage, saying soothing words, being nearby to hug if necessary).

I don't get into the judgement of others in a situation like this (Just reading a discussion board for information), but in a hypothetical sense the "facts" are pretty tragic and CIO is just one of the tragedies.

Jesse


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Amywillo_
*Ditto! It made me queasy to read that. Any kind of punishment that involves removing clothing is sexual abuse to me. I know some may disagree, but that is just how it feels to me.*
I put in a few calls to the CAS here, but I don't know what came of it. I don't go near that woman anymore.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

While I *do* feel physically ill about this, and anger toward the parents, it's important to keep this event in perspective.
I was the first person to have a child in my immediate circle of friends. I read lots of Dr. Sears, Mothering mag., etc. So I *knew* better. But there were some friends of mine who, without my help, may have never, ever been exposed to AP. If your doctors, your sisters, your friends, and the books you read all preach the same thing... that crying is harmless, that it trains your child to sleep through the night in a matter of days... I can see how someone could buy it if they had no other perspective to go on.
Many people are cut off from their instincts and intuition... men and women alike. It's easy to say this mom should have followed her instincts and her intuition, but some people are taught all that is a load of hogwash, ya know? I was MOST infuriated that there was no mention of why babies nightwake and alternatives to CIO. I guess no one wants to make the mom feel worse than she already does.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think it goes back to the fact that this was a story in a magazine. Alternatives to CIO, night time dangers, etc. weren't covered because they weren't the focus of the article. The main point was moving on after a tragedy. I am certain that the writer, and later the editor, had a word limit and so this sort of information wasn't included because it didn't fit. That's just one reason why you always have to read media stories (in any form) with a major eye toward how these are put together. Even though it was a "first person" story, an editor worked with it, maybe even more than one. Someone made sure it "fit" the style of the magazine, someone else made sure the word limit was observed, someone else did the page layout and so on. All of these people had a say in what was included and what wasn't, especially on a major national magazine like this. Had the same story been covered in, say, Mothering, the emphasis would have been very different, I'm sure.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Astrid_
*Nope, this happened about 14 years ago and since then they have adopted 5 kids.*



















Sad.

I blame the culture more than the parents, the same culture that excused them for letting their baby die like this.

I think there is a dangerous mix in our culture of "authority" and "free speech" where everyone can talk and pose as an expert and be taken seriously. It's the world of "the more convincing lie wins".

Sometimes people trust the wrong people, and take the wrong advice. I know I did. Glad my kid is well now, because my ex could have killed him!


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## Monstore (Jan 29, 2004)

I am not one to suggest suing often, but perhaps they should sue Ezzo..... Bring this disgusting and deadly advice to bear it's self out in the courts. So sad! Poor baby! What a terrible way to suffer!


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## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

It is amazing to me that so many of us are so quick to jump to conclusions and point fingers, when we abhor the same kind of criticism applied to ourselves. The conclusions people have drawn here (that the death was cio-related, especially) are at least as preposterous than the ones the mainstream press draws about co-sleeping. At least there is more than 1 case in 14 yrs. of so-called 'co-sleeping deaths'. How do you think those parents feel? They slept with their baby because they thought it was the right thing, and now their kid is dead. And many are pointing fingers, because - didn't they know that wasn't safe, it shouldn't be allowed, they should have known better, etc. etc. Sure we all know the stats are skewed, the facts incomplete and our children are as safe as they would be in a crib, but not everyone believes or knows that. And none of us here know what happened to that poor child and their family. We certainly have no basis to judge.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by scoutycat_







It is amazing to me that so many of us are so quick to jump to conclusions and point fingers, when we abhor the same kind of criticism applied to ourselves.
Are there right ways and wrong ways to treat children or not? If parents spank their children, do you judge or not? Isn't there any situation you'd consider neglect or aabuse and that the parents should have their children taken away?

I find it hard to believe you don't juge any parent in the world.

Maybe it's easier for you to see that this event was just unfortunate and an accident. Others see it as neglect.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Leonor_
*Are there right ways and wrong ways to treat children or not? If parents spank their children, do you judge or not? Isn't there any situation you'd consider neglect or aabuse and that the parents should have their children taken away?

I find it hard to believe you don't juge any parent in the world.

Maybe it's easier for you to see that this event was just unfortunate and an accident. Others see it as neglect.*
Yes but I think scoutycats point (correct me if I'm wrong) was the jumping to conclusions bit. It's so easy for us to sit here and make a range of assumptions about the incident, then announce how disgusting and neglectful it all is. We _don't know_ what really happened and I don't see any worth or productivity in making judgements on people without possession of all the facts.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Miekesmummy_
We _don't know_ what really happened and I don't see any worth or productivity in making judgements on people without possession of all the facts.
The facts seemed obvious to me. The baby was left to CIO the first time and cried for hours before he died. Sometimes you're not there to see but what happened seems pretty obvious. We're not judges but we have our opinions.


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## tessamami (Mar 11, 2002)

I don't know the facts of the death, but you'd better believe that there was an investigation. Any death of a child by its very nature is more than likely investigated. This was 14 years ago, but I doubt the Drs. would have called this SIDS without investigating first. In the present, you can count on an autopsy, unless the parents have a religious objection.

How do I know this? Because I lost my first DS to SIDS, when he was just 5.5 weeks old.

Like other posters have said, we don't know if the CIO in this article was connected to the death of this woman's child.

Like other posters have said, babies of co-sleepers have also died from SIDS. It happened to me: it was naptime and I nursed DS. He fell asleep and I was putting him down to go pee. I noticed something very wrong, he was turning grey quickly; he was still warm. My DH and I called 911 - he was taken to the hospital. After a thorough autopsy, 4 months later, it was concluded that it was a SIDS death. No medical reason was found for his death. My DS was not crying, not hurt by me, or anything we could find, and yet he is no longer with us.

I have also read of babies dying SIDS deaths in their carseats while in the car, or in strollers while riding through the airport. The article we are talking about is sort of unusual. Many SIDS deaths occur in cribs, that much is "normal", but it is not usually preceeded by a lot of crying. SIDS deaths are typically discovered when their parent or caregiver goes to wake or check on them; most babies seem to have died in their sleep.

Also, my SIDS support group leader says that she met a woman whose baby died during a nursing session. She says that the woman was holding the baby, and her DH noticed the baby turning grey. It was also ruled a SIDS death.

What is SIDS? We don't know. We simply do not know. It is like the term UFO, it is a diagnosis of exclusion; in other words, the babies death was NOT caused by dehydration, strangulation, blood disorder, malnutrition, pneumonia, fill in the blank ________. SIDS is when the Drs. say they just don't know what caused the baby's death, period, end of story.

As for cosleeping reducing the risk of SIDS, you will find studies slanted both ways, but the evidence and parents wisdom suggests that it is safer to sleep with your baby. My SIDS support group leader feels that sleeping with baby in the same room (in a crib, if you prefer) may also reduce the risk. Dr. Sears has written on this, too. Other ways to reduce the risk? Have a full-term baby, have $$ in the bank (some studies say that there is a socio-economic factor, with the poor having a greater risk of SIDS), nurse your baby, put your baby on its back to sleep. Remember however, that we don't know what causes SIDS.


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## ABailey405 (Dec 3, 2003)

I am sitting here at 10 to 7 in the morning, crying my eyes out for the people involved. I do not believe in CIO and I have my gripes about co-sleeping as well, but I don't think that that is the point. The child is dead. End of story, and no matter who is to blame, that is a truly sad loss.

Annie


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

tessamami, I'm sorry for your loss.

But the baby in the story cried for hours before he died. Let's not pretend it was different.


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## tessamami (Mar 11, 2002)

Leonor, of course the CIO was terrible. I don't want anyone to think that there is anything we can do about SIDS. It is not preventable. There is no screen for it. You can do everything wrong and it could happen, and everything right and it still can happen.

I think CIO is terrible, but I don't think we need charge this mom with murder.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by tessamami_
I think CIO is terrible, but I don't think we need charge this mom with murder.
I'm just shocked that CIO wasn't given much importance in that case and the parents were allowed to adopt.


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## tessamami (Mar 11, 2002)

The parents were allowed to adopt because it was a SIDS death, not a murder.

As for the CIO, it is an accepted practice for many in this country. Is there anyone here who knows about adoption and whether CIO is considered as a sign of abuse? How much CIO before it is considered abusive?


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

Ugh. That is sooooo sick! That was not SIDS that baby died of. He cried himself to death! Those people should not have been allowed to adopt and should have had other kids taken away. THat is plain neglect mixed with abuse. STUPID!!!

Ginger


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## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

Miekesmummy got what I meant. CIO is not my idea of good parenting, but it is widely accepted and not considered abuse. SIDS has *nothing* to do with CIO. It is ludicrous to decide that a baby cried itself to death based on 2 sentences of a story that you heard from a friend that was briefly alluded to in a magazine article she read about something else. If more people were able to think critically and would stop jumping to emotional conclusions with no factual basis whatsoever, maybe co-sleeping, bf'ing, cloth diapering and gd would be more mainstream. And if we are at all interested in having those things become mainstream, we had better not jump to emotional conclusions with no factual basis ourselves or we will deserve to be called flakes.

Leonor: You said "Are there right ways and wrong ways to treat children or not? If parents spank their children, do you judge or not? Isn't there any situation you'd consider neglect or aabuse and that the parents should have their children taken away?" @@ Of course there are. I don't judge spankers, though, they are IMO misled but doing what they know. And just because people are terrible/neglectful/abusive parents doesn't mean they are monsters or evil, but their children should be protected from them of course. It's not a judgement, it's simply the way it is.

"I find it hard to believe you don't juge any parent in the world. "
Believe what you want. If there is one thing that I have learned as a parent it is that you don't know what it is like in another's shoes until you've been there. There are so many things I thought I wouldn't do or situations I wouldn't get into that have happened now that I have a hard time judging anyone.


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

Scoutycat, you say you NEVER judge anyone unless you have been in thier shoes. Okay. I saw an episode of Montel the other day. 6 Kids were finally taken away from thier foster parents after 4 years of abuse. They were often put in two wire baskets wired shut and thrown in the bottom of the pool until they were just about to die. They were also starved most of the time.When the WERE fed they had to go into the kitchen one by one on thier knees and were spoon fed food, usually oatmeal, straight from the pan off the stove. Steaming hot. If they cried or complaned, they were not fed a drop again for days. How about those shoes?

Ginger

Edited to add: two were twins that were ther since they were tiny babies. Imagine having to get used to a normal life and the set of problems they came with.


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## Miekesmummy (Jun 13, 2003)

Quote from scoutycat:

'If more people were able to think critically and would stop jumping to emotional conclusions with no factual basis whatsoever, maybe co-sleeping, bf'ing, cloth diapering and gd would be more mainstream. And if we are at all interested in having those things become mainstream, we had better not jump to emotional conclusions with no factual basis ourselves or we will deserve to be called flakes.'

ITA. People here who are finger pointing and sitting up on their moral thrones are not doing the AP cause any favours.

I don't tell people what I do is attachement parenting, people cringe when they hear the term. I'm no better parent than anyone else. Everyone thinks they do what is best for their child, otherwise we wouldn't do it.


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

I admit that we are all emotional about this story. Who wouldnt be? It hurts to think of a baby going through that. And I know I did respond emotionally. It is kind of hard not to wonder about someone who lets a baby cry so long though. Certainly he was choking and hiccuping and the whole works. I know also that some people think that AP'ers are judgemental nuts. I live in a town where most people do not AP in most ways. I try to talk to other people about options to bottlefeeding etc, but it is hard when thier defenses are already up. Or when they have simply decided they do not want to do and listen with a closed mind. Some AP'ers will judge me for using disposable diapers on my children. I was using cloth then went to disposables after ds2 was born. I suppose some would say that I have failed at AP'ing. Someone actually told me that awhile back when I was pg with #3 and having a hard time coping with ms, nursing and fatigue. She even told me to give up and try again with the next one.

But to say you never make judgements is wrong. Even if we think about it afterward, we make judgements all the time about things based on what we know, our own opinions and experiences and many other things. We may judge initially then think it through later and may have an aha moment or what have you. I still stand by my beleif that it was not SIDS that baby died of though.

Ginger


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Gidget_
Okay. I saw an episode of Montel the other day. 6 Kids were finally taken away from thier foster parents after 4 years of abuse.
Yikes! Aren't foster parents usually chosen by social services? It's not the first time I hear horror stories about foster families.


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## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Gidget_
*Scoutycat, you say you NEVER judge anyone unless you have been in thier shoes.*
Actually, I said I have a hard time judging anyone. It's pretty rare that I have enough information and insight into a situation that I feel I have a basis to judge anyone, even in horrific situations like the one you saw described on Montel. I can't even begin to fathom what would cause people to treat anyone that way, let alone their own kids, but without more information I don't know that they are terrible malicious evil people. Sick, certainly. Evil? Hard to say. Certainly they shouldn't be allowed to have more kids, and should be tried for their actions.







I guess it depends how you define 'judging'


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

I think judgindg a person or situation goes both ways. If we both saw a woman in a parking lot spank a toddler then yank him or her to the car by the arm I might think that she is an abusive mom who needs to be reported and you may think that she is having a really bad day and could use some help. Either one of us would be right. I cannot imagine why those people did such awful things to thier foster children. I am pretty sure it is not for lack of coping skills(they were trained to do this I am sure) and the system is also to blame for letting it go on. I am certain it was not a bad day, week or even life. I don't know what it was, but they have serious issues and I know most people, especaily trained foster parents, know that kind of abuse affects a person for the rest of thier life.

I did not read the article about the baby that cried all night before dying, but I wonder if that lady meant to say" Look I did that and this happened, I don't want it to happen to someone else. We may never know why she told the interviewer what happened. I do know though that I find it hard to see how someone could let a baby cry so long and hard.Most instinctively want to pick up and hod a crying baby, even someone elses.

Ginger


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