# at the risk of starting a fire here, do you think that spanking EVER works?



## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

**donning flame retardant suit**

I am a firm believer in GD. We have praticed it and modeled it in all aspects of our lives. Of course there have been times when I have yelled and felt like crap and even spanked once or twice but...

My DD is 3-3/4 and, if you have read anything about us prior, before you know that she is a VERY spirited, independent,energetic, non-stop stubborn child - all of which I see as positive traits in a person, though at times it can be trying on my patience.







But for the past few months she has taken to kicking me - and I mean HARD - when she is angry. I have always responded to this calmly and have tried every GD thing I KNOW to get her to stop it.

A few weeks ago we were lying down to nap (she is also the anti-sleeper and on this particular day had gotten up at at 3:45 AM so she was TIRED) and of course, she DID NOT want to nap. I never "make" her take naps - I just tell her then it's quiet time. But this day she WAS napping. Her eyes were half shut, she was yawning and fighting sleep. So she started throwing a fit because she did not want to sleep and turned herself sideways and kicked me - HARD - in the stomach. I was 19 weeks pregnant at that time. That was IT. I grabbed her legs and spanked her butt. Not hard, but enough to get her attention. She started to cry harder and I said very firmly, "YOU WILL NOT KICK ME ANYMORE ELLERIE. AND FROM NOW ON ANY TIME YOU DO KICK ME I AM GOING TO SPANK YOU." Then she stopped crying and apologized for kicking me, and I apologized for spanking her and she fell asleep snuggled in my arms.

A few days later she was having a tantrum about something else and ran toward me. I said firmly, "DO NOT KICK ME ELLERIE" and she kicked me. I turned her over and spanked her butt again. This time though it stopped her tantrum and she looked at me and said she was sorry for kicking me. I thanked her for apologizing and told her I DO NOT like spanking her but repeated that any time she kicked me I was going to spank her.

Later on we had a conversation about what we can do when she is feeling super mad rather than kick mommy. Now, we have had this conversation before the spankings occured, but she still kicked me. She discovered that, like me, when she is super angry she needs space. I told her that's fine - she can have all the time she needs to calm down and it's OK to be angry but it is NOT ok to hurt someone when you are angry. It HURTS. I don't know if she got the IT HURTS part before - i think she only saw it as a way to immediately vent her anger.

She has NOT kicked me since. And as much as I do not believe in spanking I have to say that it worked for this situation. Believe me when I say I tried EVERYTHING to get her to stop kicking me and nothing worked. I am not a believer in punishments and threats. But it is so nice to not have bruised shins and worry about her kicking me in the stomach anymore.

What do you think? Part of me feels bad that I resorted to "violence" to end something violent - but I can honestly say that when I spanked her I was NOT out of control - I was angry the first time, yes, and also protecting the baby - but the second time I saw her heading to kick me and I knew I was going to do it ahead of time - it was not a reaction. I think somehow that with my stubborn headed child this got through to her that I mean it when I say A. Kicking hurts and B. DON'T kick me. What should the natural consequence be for kicking someone - over and over and over and over again, when the behavior does not change or subside with all the conversations and postitive timeouts in the world?

What do you think?


----------



## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

the natural concequence for kicking someone in the adult world is one of two things

1: Police getting called and the kicker gets criminally charged with assult

2: the kick-ee takes things into his/her own hands and defends his/herself from the kick-er resulting in a fight.

Other than that I got nuthin...


----------



## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Spanking "works" (sometimes) if what you mean by "works" is "ends an unwanted behavior in the short term". It works, plain and simple, through fear. There is nothing else operating when you use spanking (or the threat of spanking). Yes, fear can certainly "work" as a behavior modification tool.

However, it changes the dynamic between parent and child into strong vs. weak, dominant vs. submissive, master vs. slave. Some people think this is fine. Children's brains think otherwise. Although many adults who were spanked as children come to "identify with their assailants" and actually believe it was good for them, AT THE TIME what they felt was fear, and probably resentment, and confusion. And...the most salient one for me...humiliation. Do these feelings cause a child to "behave better"? Often, yes, until they forget. But the feelings also can cause a lot more unwanted behavior, to say the least.

When I was spanked as a child I actually would think over and over to myself, REMEMBER THIS - REMEMBER THIS - REMEMBER NEVER TO DO THIS TO YOUR CHILDREN. The feelings of humiliation, injustice and rage were so potent I can taste them now.

So you ask the wrong question, IMO.

I don't care if spanking works. It's wrong.


----------



## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Define works.

Does it extinguish unwanted behavior? Sometimes.

Does it lead to a well-adjusted, well-reasoning adult who is able to evaluate the consequences of their actions to themselves and others and to make good choices, and who does not see violence as an answer to problem? Never. Those things might happen in spite of spanking, but they will not happen because of it.

Since the second scenario and not the first is my goal as I discipline my child, then I would say no, spanking never works.


----------



## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

I will admit I tried it a little before discovering gentle discipline. I, like other have said, feel it stops the little unwanted behavior issue rarely. Negative attention or belittling somebody over their actions usually has a poor outcome. How many times have you responded negatively to an adult and gotten a positive reaction out of it? Hummm? Doesn't happen does it? Same for children.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I guess it depends on how you define "works."

If you're defining "works" as "stopping the behavior in the short term" then yes, spanking "works" sometimes "better" than GD.

If you define "works" as "teaching the child inner discipline so she WANTS to be good" then I don't think spanking "works."

Here's how I handled similar situations with DS when he was a toddler:

I'd tell him to be gentle, or he'd have to go in the crib (in my bedroom, right next to my bed.) If he hurt me, I put him in the crib- he was safe, there were toys in there, and he could still hear and see me, but he couldn't hurt me. I usually gave him ONE chance after being put in the crib to come out and snuggle with me in bed, but after that he was in the crib for all of nap time. A few times he cried himself to sleep in the crib (again, I stayed in the room with him, verbally comforting him the whole time) until he learned that he wasn't allowed to hurt mommy. I even had one of those *gasp* crib tents to keep him from climbing out.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama*
Spanking "works" (sometimes) if what you mean by "works" is "ends an unwanted behavior in the short term". It works, plain and simple, through fear. There is nothing else operating when you use spanking (or the threat of spanking). Yes, fear can certainly "work" as a behavior modification tool.

However, it changes the dynamic between parent and child into strong vs. weak, dominant vs. submissive, master vs. slave. Some people think this is fine. Children's brains think otherwise. Although many adults who were spanked as children come to "identify with their assailants" and actually believe it was good for them, AT THE TIME what they felt was fear, and probably resentment, and confusion. And...the most salient one for me...humiliation. Do these feelings cause a child to "behave better"? Often, yes, until they forget. But the feelings also can cause a lot more unwanted behavior, to say the least.

When I was spanked as a child I actually would think over and over to myself, REMEMBER THIS - REMEMBER THIS - REMEMBER NEVER TO DO THIS TO YOUR CHILDREN. The feelings of humiliation, injustice and rage were so potent I can taste them now.

So you ask the wrong question, IMO.

I don't care if spanking works. It's wrong.









:

I came to post the same thing, but this says it perfectly.

Of course it "works" your child is now afraid you're going to hit her. Does it build a stronger relationship? No. Does it help her learn how to cope in real life? No. Does it teach your child that you love her? No. Does it teach your child you value her? No. It teaches your child that you are bigger and stronger and the way to deal with things is to be the bigger bully.

-Angela


----------



## RidentMama (Aug 18, 2003)

I'm all for using GD whenever possible, but I think that in this case, perhaps your child didn't understand the pain she was inflicting upon you and so had a hard time justifying needing to use self-control when it was so much easier to lash out. And you did say that you employed all available options, and you were protecting your unborn child as well.

I just about guarantee that you won't find much (if any) pro-spanking support on this board. And if you do, the odds of it staying up as a post are nil: the mods will remove it because this board does not endorse the use of spankng AT ALL. If you want people to give you kudos, you'll have to go over to Dobson's site.


----------



## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

I totally agree with you guys - but my DD is not a toddler. She is a very bright and articulate - almost too bright - preschooler.

I think - no, I KNOW her feelings overwhelm her and yes, my ultimate goal in life it to teach her to be able to handle her feelings in a healthy way - and I KNOW hitting is not going to accomplish that. BUT - out in the "real world" if she were to get angry and hit someone, more than likely they would hit her back - even at this age amongst her peers. Anger usually arouses anger. I want her to learn to express her feelings in ways that say "It's OK to feel how I feel and it's OK for the other person to feel how they feel and we can disagree and take some space." KWIM?

Ugh - this parenting thing is SO complicated sometimes and not as black and white as I wish it were. *sigh* this is a trying age and I do subscribe to the philosophy that








I am re-reading positive Discipline again...I don't want to resort to this type of thing as a normal way to "get" her to behave or I KNOW she will do things behind my back to avoid punishment, rather than make the right choices driven by herself.







Is there anything I can do to UNDO what I have done?


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes, I think it works in the short term by stopping the behavior.

No, I don't think it's an effective long-term strategy.

I think that there are times where the behavior *must be stopped* before it can be dealt with.

Do I think that the parent-child relationship will be irreparably harmed by a once- or twice- or thrice-in-a-lifetime spanking? No, not in most cases.

Do I think that the occasional spank teaches kids that the way to resolve disputes is through violence? No.

Do I think you should continue to spank your child when she misbehaves? No.

Do I fault you for spanking her when she was kicking you repeatedly? No.

No, we shouldn't hit our kids. But what about when they hit or kick us? Yes, we are bigger, but kids can come at you and really hurt you if you aren't careful. A three-year-old I once had on my caseload as a foster care social worker tore my medial collateral ligament (in my knee) with a well-placed kick. Kids shouldn't be allowed to hit us, either, and you know what? If I knew an adult who kept running up and kicking/hitting me and wouldn't stop no matter what I did, I would probably finally kick/hit that person back. Just to show him/her that I won't tolerate being hit/kicked. Even though I don't advocate violence.

Namaste!


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Well what did you try that was GD? I do NOT believe that spanking works better than very firm but more gentle methods.

When your child hits or kicks you, you need to adopt an EXTREMELY serious voice. You must immediately hold her arms or legs gently and say in your MOST SERIOUS voice: YOU MAY NOT HIT ME! IT HURTS. (very quiet and very low is the best way to go).

You can explain/discuss later but there is just one message here. "I do not like it when you hurt me. I am NOT happy with you."

This is a message I reserved ONLY for physical transgressions. It "worked" just as well as spanking coud ever have.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
Is there anything I can do to UNDO what I have done?

You say you guys have talked about this since the spankings, right? And you have apologized to each other? Well, leave it at that. Don't continue to dwell on either of the mistakes, yours or hers, because THAT will, I believe, teach her that we are helpless in the face of our past actions and that they will continue to define us far into the future (because "far into the future" is a very short time for a preschooler).

Also, if you act like you have done a completely horrible, unforgivable thing to her and beg for her mercy, that could lead her to feel like a pathetic victim ... "Look how ill-used I was!!" THAT will not help her become a confident person.

Namaste!


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
I think - no, I KNOW her feelings overwhelm her and yes, my ultimate goal in life it to teach her to be able to handle her feelings in a healthy way - and I KNOW hitting is not going to accomplish that. BUT - out in the "real world" if she were to get angry and hit someone, more than likely they would hit her back - even at this age amongst her peers. Anger usually arouses anger. I want her to learn to express her feelings in ways that say "It's OK to feel how I feel and it's OK for the other person to feel how they feel and we can disagree and take some space." KWIM?

Okay- assume you have an elderly grandparent you're taking care of. If they hit you- do you hit them back to teach them? Of course not. Why? It's not okay. Hitting another person is not okay. Period.

As to how to make things better- you have to tell your dd that you were wrong and apologize. You need to explain to her that hitting (and kicking) is NEVER right. That you were wrong and should not have done it. There will be some difficult discussion after that.

good luck

-Angela


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

It works but at what cost?

The *only* way spanking works is to create fear in the child.

The child complies because she is *afraid* of you.

This is what convinced my dh to stop spanking. He would say something like, "This is what worked for my parents" or "I respected my dad."

No, honey, you *hated* your dad (I have known my husband since he was 15.) You *hated* him and you *feared* him. You are getting respect and fear mixed up.

Seriously, the only reason spanking ever works is because it introduces the element of fear into a child's relationship with his or her parnts.

It isn't a price I am willing to pay to get my children to behave.

Debra Baker


----------



## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

Hmm. If spanking was the best solution you could come up with, well I guess you do what you need to do in a safety situation. For an extreme example, I don't believe that killing people 'works' but there may come a day where I find I need to kill someone (of course I hope not). I think most gd people react strongly to even the occasional spank because it has such finality to it - once you've decided to spank, are you really looking for other non-violent solutions still? Is it a slippery slope once you've started spanking that you'll succumb to the easy answer and use it over and over again? IRL, tho, if anyone else hit you in a way that was possibly going to cause long term damage, you have otehr ways of dealing with it - you might leave dh, call the police on a sibling or parent, etc. Most of the options that we have for dealing with violence and abuse are not ones we would use with our kids. So I guess IMHO spanking may 'work' to accomplish a stop to a behaviour, but it is an expensive solution - it cost your child, your relationship, and yourself, and it is never the best solution. That said, if it is the only idea you have at the moment and you need to defend yourself, I would probably use it, too. It is important that your child knows you are not a punching bag, and that you don't take abuse even from people you liove. I would also keep looking for other ways to deal with it once we were through the moment, and hope to never have to go down that path again.


----------



## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
I totally agree with you guys - but my DD is not a toddler. She is a very bright and articulate - almost too bright - preschooler.

I think - no, I KNOW her feelings overwhelm her and yes, my ultimate goal in life it to teach her to be able to handle her feelings in a healthy way - and I KNOW hitting is not going to accomplish that. BUT - out in the "real world" if she were to get angry and hit someone, more than likely they would hit her back - even at this age amongst her peers. Anger usually arouses anger. I want her to learn to express her feelings in ways that say "It's OK to feel how I feel and it's OK for the other person to feel how they feel and we can disagree and take some space." KWIM?

Okay, I'm going to say this in the most inoffensive way I can say it while still expressing the depth of my belief . . . .but how did hitting her help her learn to "express her feelings in ways that say 'It's OK to feel how I feel and it's OK for the other person to feel how they feel and we can disagree and take some space.' "? What it showed her, instead, was exactly what you DON'T want her to see -- that sometimes hitting IS a valid solution. The last thing you need to be modeling is hitting -- because that's what she's going to sieze on if that's what she sees modeled. And then, you're right, more than likely she's gonna lash out and she's going to get hit back. You want to PROTECT her from that, not propagate it.

I know you probably know all that already. But sometimes, it's good to see it in black and white, because it can help us remember it when WE are in the heat of the moment.

Another way to think of it is this. I don't believe hitting is EVER the way to solve problems -- EVER. EVER. EVER. So if I'm not going to hit my husband, or my sister, or my coworker, or whoever -- even if they do things that hurt me on a regular basis -- why would I do it to MY CHILD, to whom I bear much more responsibility, and whom I am supposed to love and teach and guide? He deserves AT LEAST as much respect from me as anyone else.

I do think there is black and white in parenting. I don't think it can get anymore black and white than hitting. Hitting -- "spanking" -- hurts children. It "works" because it hurts. If it didn't hurt, it wouldn't "work." Hitting children is wrong. I don't know anything more black and white than that.

Quote:

Is there anything I can do to UNDO what I have done?
No, unfortunately we can't undo what's done. But if it were me, I would try to minimize the effects by going to my child and saying "I know I told you I was going to spank you every time you kicked me, but that was a bad idea and I was wrong. Just like you were wrong to hurt me, I was wrong to hurt you, and I'm sorry. I will not spank you again." And then keep my word. Unfortunately, that may mean she tries to kick me even more frequently to "test the boundaries" so to speak. But I think if I dealt with that without hitting and without hurting, it would go a long way to "repairing the damage."


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
Is there anything I can do to UNDO what I have done?

Just apologize. "I'm sorry I hit you. I got angry and I forgot to be gentle. I'll try very very hard not to do that again."

What will hitting her and then apologizing teach her? That hitting is "bad" but people can do "bad" things sometimes without turning into "bad people."


----------



## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

Thanks for not flaming me mommas.

I did apologize and that was that. No more kicking. No more spanking. No more threats of spanking.

Quote:

Well what did you try that was GD? I do NOT believe that spanking works better than very firm but more gentle methods.

When your child hits or kicks you, you need to adopt an EXTREMELY serious voice. You must immediately hold her arms or legs gently and say in your MOST SERIOUS voice: YOU MAY NOT HIT ME! IT HURTS. (very quiet and very low is the best way to go).

You can explain/discuss later but there is just one message here. "I do not like it when you hurt me. I am NOT happy with you."

This is a message I reserved ONLY for physical transgressions. It "worked" just as well as spanking coud ever have.
I did that for MONTHS. And that works for everything else. But she has a fiery temper like a little lion. I spoke to her. we role played other ways she can express when she is super angry. I left the room and told her calmly I would be in the other room and she could come when she calmed down. I have calmly led her to her room and told her to stay there until she can calm down. I have knelt down and hugged her because she was so angry she felt the needed to kick me to get it out. I have told her firmly that KICKING HURTS. I have shown her the bruises she left on my shins to show her that kicking hurts.

I tell you, NOTHING worked with this issue. I suppose eventually it would have, but kicking me in the stomach is NOT acceptable and the behavior HAD to stop.

anyway...it won't be something I resort to. That's for sure.


----------



## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
I told her that's fine - she can have all the time she needs to calm down and it's OK to be angry but *it is NOT ok to hurt someone when you are angry. It HURTS.*

I think you should take your own advice.









Good luck with your daughter.


----------



## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*
I think you should take your own advice.









Good luck with your daughter.


And I thought this thread would stay snark free...

So much for that.








:


----------



## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that there are many other ways that you could deal with things like hitting and kicking that are just as effective. I think it is very childish to say "if you hurt me I will hurt you more" which is essentially what you will be doing if you hit her after she hurts you. You also can't say that this is the last time she will ever kick you since she is still alive and may still do it again.

My dd has gotten like this twice when she was very overtired and we were having a hard week and I just moved out of her reach, talked to her gently, and held her away from me where she could do no damage when she came towards me. She hasn't had a seen like this for several months and hopefully won't again but if she does I am confident that I will find it in myself to draw off of what I know rather than my anger to help her get past this.

I know that society seems to say that it is okay to hit kids and that they deserve to be hit, but I know many women, including my mother, who deeply regret ever spanking their children and they apologize for it and beat themselves up about it a lot. That is not the kind of thing I want to do when I look back on parenting my child.

There is a great line that I read out of Adventures in Gentle Discipline by Hilary Flowers that said that "Violence starts where knowledge ends." I truly believe that to be true.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
Thanks for not flaming me mommas.

I did apologize and that was that. No more kicking. No more spanking. No more threats of spanking.

I did that for MONTHS. And that works for everything else. But she has a fiery temper like a little lion. I spoke to her. we role played other ways she can express when she is super angry. I left the room and told her calmly I would be in the other room and she could come when she calmed down. I have calmly led her to her room and told her to stay there until she can calm down. I have knelt down and hugged her because she was so angry she felt the needed to kick me to get it out. I have told her firmly that KICKING HURTS. I have shown her the bruises she left on my shins to show her that kicking hurts.

I tell you, NOTHING worked with this issue. I suppose eventually it would have, but kicking me in the stomach is NOT acceptable and the behavior HAD to stop.

anyway...it won't be something I resort to. That's for sure.


Man, that's tough. I always preach prevention, I guess you probably tried that, too, huh? It's probably pretty hard to dodge a three year old.

I agree with the previous posters, that it's not a desirable way to solve a problem, but I also strongly doubt you seriously damaged your relationship with her. That's the thing about relationships, they're personal, complex, and resilient. So I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. And I would tell her that you're not going to spank her anymore, because you don't want that threat lingering between you and eroding your love for each other.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
My dd has gotten like this twice when she was very overtired and we were having a hard week and I just moved out of her reach, talked to her gently, and held her away from me where she could do no damage when she came towards me. She hasn't had a seen like this for several months and hopefully won't again but if she does I am confident that I will find it in myself to draw off of what I know rather than my anger to help her get past this.

With all due respect, the op's situation seemed a little different than this. She replied that she had tried other solutions *for months*, not just once in a while. I kind of agree with Dharmamama, when the problem is chronic and perpetual, sometimes getting the behavior stopped is a way to regroup.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Hey, my child kept going at the stove so I flicked some boiling water on his fingers. The first time I was angry, but the second time it happened I planned to do this in advance. Does this approach ever work?

My wife refuses to clean our apartment. It's a total dump. One day I'd just had enough. It's so unhealthy to live like this and I couldn't take it any more. I was angry and I hit her. The next time I planned it in advance. Guess what!? Now she's cleaning up. Does hitting one's spouse ever lead to the desired changes?

Much of this thread is sounding like a slightly veiled defense of spanking. Hey, I tried everything else, didn't do it in anger, and it's working. Hey everyone else, does it sometimes work to hit your children into submission? Yah, you can beat a child into obedience -- or at least into sneakiness. Some children may take more beatings than others to get to the desired position of subordination.

I don't feel like this is the place for a thread with pro-spanking sentiments -- especially in the freggin' gd forum.

SPANKING IS NOT AN OPTION to turn to when you are having trouble with HUMANE approaches to parenting.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
Hey, my child kept going at the stove so I flicked some boiling water on his fingers. The first time I was angry, but the second time it happened I planned to do this in advance. Does this approach ever work?

My wife refuses to clean our apartment. It's a total dump. One day I'd just had enough. It's so unhealthy to live like this and I couldn't take it any more. I was angry and I hit her. The next time I planned it in advance. Guess what!? Now she's cleaning up. Does hitting one's spouse ever lead to the desired changes?

Much of this thread is sounding like a slightly veiled defense of spanking. Hey, I tried everything else, didn't do it in anger, and it's working. Hey everyone else, does it sometimes work to hit your children into submission? Yah, you can beat a child into obedience -- or at least into sneakiness. Some children may take more beatings than others to get to the desired position of subordination.

I don't feel like this is the place for a thread with pro-spanking sentiments -- especially in the freggin' gd forum.

SPANKING IS NOT AN OPTION to turn to when you are having trouble with HUMANE approaches to parenting.

Every single poster has said that they felt this exact same thing, why do you think you need to line us out? I don't think she needs to be sarcastically castigated for her mistake, she voiced her immense frustration and discouragement.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

No one here has advocated spanking.

Most of us have said that spanking only "works" in the short term.

I think everyone here has encouraged the OP not to do it again.

Some of us have said that one or two spankings probably hasn't irretrievably broken down the parent-child relationship.

Berating the OP for doing something that she knows she shouldn't have done just to march in lockstep with the GD line wouldn't be productive.

Sympathizing with the OP for the tough spot she is/was in is NOT the same as advocating spanking. It's merely acknowledging that sometimes we fall short of our own parenting standards and giving some support.

Not every thread from a parent who spanked and regrets it has to turn into another platform for proclaiming the evils of spanking. We all know them already.

Namaste!


----------



## KA29 (Jan 8, 2006)

Haven't read the other replies but here are my .02.

I think it depends on what your definition of 'works' is. Can spanking stop a certain behavior? Yes, I think it can 'work' to make a child stop doing X Y or Z. In your case kicking. I don't though think it 'works' in the long run at getting into the heart of the issue. It doesn't teach WHY the child why he or she shouldn't do X, Y or Z. It just teaches them to avoid pain by not doing X, Y or Z. So to me, I would not define that as working at all.

I definitely think aggressive type behavior (kicking, biting, hitting etc) need to be addressed, but personally, I am not comfortable addressing them with spanking. My 4 year old was a very aggressive 2-3 year old so I have BTDT and it was hard. I'm not sure if you are looking for alternative ways to deal with that, but if you would like to hear some of what we did to stop those things, I'd be happy to share that.









But to answer your question, I would say I think spanking can appear to _work_ _in the short term_ by stopping the behavior but _I don't think it works at all in the long term_ at teaching the child why the behavior is not acceptable.

HTH


----------



## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

I think maybe the biggest "risk" in a situation like the OP described is realising how well it works (in the short term, immediate sense) and applying it to an ever growing set of misbehaviours. In other words, its a slippery slope, especially when other methods don't seem to work.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Calidris has hit the nail on the head. It IS a slippery slope, and when you are exhausted and at your wits end and on those days when you just don't have the emotional energy to handle it the way you should....well, those are the days when one remembers the "quick fix" and resorts to it. I've been there. I'm sure many of us have. That is the real danger of the OP's situation.

I'd also like to add that children learn best, the most, from modelling. By using spanking the adult sends a message that hitting is okay under certain circumstances. Unfortunately, those circumstances are evaluated subjectively, therefore the biggest person gets to decide when. That's just not a lesson I want to teach, no matter how well it works in the short term.

I'd also be willing to bet that the child will "re-offend", despite the threat of spanking. This is the other danger, is that the child will either decide an action is "worth the spanking", or they will simply require harsher and harsher punishments. The first time a child is hit the reactions is intense. But after a while, children get used to being hit. And then you have to up the ante.

OP, you are not a horrible mother at all. It is obvious you are torn inside. We've all been in places where we've acted in ways we wish we hadn't. The best thing to do is apologize to your DD, tell her that spanking was NOT the right way to handle it. Be honest with her. You'll all be okay.


----------



## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
And I thought this thread would stay snark free...

So much for that.








:

That was not a snark. I really think the OP already knows in her heart that there's a better way than spanking/hurting, since she's basically saying it to her son.

How about not looking for a "snark" in every thread? Sheesh.


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Yes, I think that the way my parents and other relatives of their generation used spanking, it worked. HOWEVER, IT WAS NOT THE BEST CHOICE THEY COULD HAVE MADE. They did it rarely, in situations where a child was going completely wild and had been unresponsive to at least half a dozen gentle and reasonable approaches.
Example: Kid is spinning around the kitchen, in socks on the tile floor, singing loud silly songs, while mom and grandma are trying to cook. Mom firmly tells kid that he may choose whether to stop that or leave the room. No change. Mom explains that kid could slip and fall and hurt himself or her or grandma, and it's particularly dangerous because of the hot things and knives in use. Kid spins faster and sings louder. Mom makes several specific suggestions of other things kid could do. No change. Mom physically pulls kid into living room and tries to interest him in a game. Kid pulls away and spins back into kitchen, narrowly missing grandma and a pot of boiling water. Mom speaks firmly to kid again. Kid spins faster and sings louder. Mom grabs him and slaps him once on the butt. Kid is shocked. Mom leads him out of the room as he begins crying. They sit in his bedroom talking about why his behavior was wrong and had to stop. Then she tells him to stay there until dinner is ready.

I never saw this approach fail to stop the wild behavior for a few hours at minimum. The shock of being hit, because it was RARE and because it only happened at times when I KNEW I was running wild but was sort of weirdly enjoying it too much to quit, always startled me out of the wild mood and made me feel very contrite. It was as if I got so swept up in this wild mood that I just couldn't think logically about whether it was dangerous or how it was affecting other people, and I couldn't really hear what my parents were saying until their action came through: "HEY!!! I AM REAL AND I MEAN IT!" The humiliation of being spanked sort of jarred me into feeling humiliated that I had behaved in such a stupid way in the first place. Thus, I think it did in fact help me to improve my inner discipline. I disagree that spanking works only because the child fears future spankings and therefore walks on eggshells to avoid upsetting the parent; that wasn't my experience at all. My behavior on an everyday basis was guided by gentle discipline and the resulting desire to behave such that my parents would respect and approve of me. I never feared that ordinary disobedience (like ignoring my dad when he told me to get ready for bed) would result in a spanking, because my family didn't use spanking that way.

Still, I think spanking was not an ideal way to handle the rare wild situations because it sent the message that hitting is sometimes okay. It's not that I interpreted that to mean hitting is ALWAYS okay; by about 5 years old I understood quite well the sort of situation in which parents (in my family--there was a lot more spanking in some of my friends' families) could hit kids, so when I was alone with my younger brother and he was wild like that and ignored my attempts to calm him, I would hit him. And then my parents would punish ME and not him!!







That didn't make sense.

Luckylady, I understand why you spanked your daughter, and I think it did "work" for now. It may even have solved the problem permanently, not because she now lives in constant fear of being spanked, but because she now understands that she is really absolutely not allowed to hurt you and you really mean it. If the problem does recur, you need a better strategy, and you are working hard to find it. I think you're doing fine.







Spanking was not the ideal solution to this problem, but having used it in this one extreme circumstance doesn't ruin your entire relationship, IMO.

Before everyone flames me: I have never spanked my child. I do not plan ever to spank him. I am doing the best I can to learn every possible alternative strategy so that I will never feel I "have" to resort to spanking.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

THe question is not does it ever work. If it didnt it wouldnt have been the prevalent practice for tens of thousands of years.
The real question is "at what cost?" and "is there another kinder solution that will work just as well?"


----------



## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I agree with the pps who said it can work in the short term. I don't think it will work long term, though. It is frustrating to be kicked or hit ever, but especially when you are pregnant, tired and feel like you have tried everything else. I wouldn't worry about undoing it, you really can't anyway. You've talked to her and apologized I would just let it go and vow to do better next time.

I have to say I think you have a lot of courage to come here (of all places) and admit to spanking your dd. That shows you are committed to finding a better way for you and your child. Good luck to your family.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

And as much as I do not believe in spanking I have to say that it worked for this situation.
That sounds like advocacy to me.

I don't think you are a bad mother. I realize you were frustrated/upset/hurt and that your daughter was being violent toward you by kicking you...I get that. I don't think your relationship is damaged forever.

Okay, that disclaimer aside... I think the comment I quoted is far more damaging than the actual spanking. It justifies the use of hitting as a means to an end. It presents (imo) the image to other people who are on the fence about gd'ing to think "well sure I will try gentle discipline but spanking is okay for certain situations"... I wouldn't want anyone to think that....especially you. I agree with the pp that it can be a slippery slope. It is used "just" for hitting, then "just" for this, or "just" for that -- before you know it, it is one of the tools in your toolbox. It happens that gradually, better to nip it in the bud while you can and just make hitting your child NOT AN OPTION. That is how I look at it in our family. It simply isn't an option.

Good luck to you...


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*

I *did that for MONTHS. And that works for everything else..*


It it "works for everything else" than you have NOT tried what I am talking about. I am talking about reserving certain message for ONLY when physical behavior is involved.


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Wow. Well, I'm a little surprised that this question would be asked here.

I am far from an expert, but my response would be - yes, things like spanking, timeouts, all sorts of punishments do sometimes work in the short-term ... and sometimes very effectively.

But they are still not things I want to do. I would never treat my DS like a dog. In fact, I don't want to treat my DOGS like most people treat their dogs.

What else could you have done? If it were me, I would have gotten up and left. Not the room (my DS at 2 would feel abandoned if I left the room), but I would not have continued laying there.

I don't blame you for having the reaction you did. I have certainly not always had the reactions I should to my DS, and while I've never spanked him, I've been just as bad a couple of times.

But, don't you think it says something about our culture that your instinct was to lash out, instead of removing yourself from the situation? Peaceful solutions are not our strong point, generally speaking.

It doesn't seem likely that you hurt your relationship with her long-term... you're only human. But if you continued to repeat this pattern, my personal belief is that it would set up a very adversarial "I'm the boss of you" relationship, and she would start to see hitting as a way to solve problems.

I'm really sorry you're going through this.







No one should be in that position. But, maybe we can use this thread to brainstorm on other GD solutions? Leaving is the best way to send a message (not leaving the house though, even though you might want to... LOL). Maybe we can all come with more solutions and ways to communicate that kicking mama endangers the baby and is a VERY socially unacceptable behavior?


----------



## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

Envirobecca - your post made me cry. That is exactly the thoughts I had on this. I have not spanked her before...

Maya I don't know how old your child is, nor do I know his or per personality. Let me assure you that my child is INTENSE and was born that way. This is the only thing she has ever done that hurts me - she was never a biter or hair puller and never hurts other kids. She started this kicking me thing a few months ago, which is psychologically right about the time it WOULD happen - she is pushing me away. My Harsh voice is saved for when I mean it - like running from me and I say STOP. I mean it.

I am not advocating spanking by any means - I was wondering the thoughts as to if it ever really works as a teaching tool.

Someone else hit the nail on the head when they said violence starts where ideas end. Obviously true here. I literally tried EVERYTHING EVERYTHING to get her to stop hurting me. And when nothing else worked - ie; I was out of ideas - I spanked her.









Hopefully the behavior won't happen again - she has gotten mad since then of course, and she says to me "I am feeling really really mad!" And I will back off as the case may be, or she will simply tell me to leave her alone. yes, those are her words "Leave me alone." Just today she threw a fit that she didn't want to go in the store (after we drove 20 minutes to get there - we needed to get food for lunch or I would have just left) and wanted me to leave her in the car. Obviously I am not leaving her in the car. She has a little temper and let me assure you - she was BORN with it. She started crying her hysterical PO'd cry so i asked her if she needed to cool off. She said yes. So I closed the door and when I reopened it she had calmed down and I asked her if she wanted to be in charge of getting all the fruit and she was happy with that idea.

Someone gave an example of splashing the child with hot water...My DD's personality is such that when I told her no touch, the oven is HOT, she looked right at me and touched it anyway - and she will STILL do it if I tell her the oven is hot!!! I am afraid she is like me in that respect - has to learn it see it and experience it for herself. Sometimes the hard way.

Anyway - I am rambling and obviously need to find another tool box of ideas for the obstacles to come - of which I know there will be some.

So thank you mommas.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I wasn't trying to be harsh when I said it sounded like advocacy. I was basically saying that if itis even in your toolbox...at all.. even if it is a "last resort", then you are more or less advocating it. I think personally, it should not even be an option.

For example. Would crystal meth have *worked* to keep me awake during finals in college? Sure, they would have -- pills too or whatever....they would have definately given me the energy to pull all nighters and the edge that coffee never could. They just simply WERE NOT AN OPTION. It was not even something I would have considered. I think that is where people (imo) should be with hitting (people who desire gentle discipline). Choosing to even eliminate it from any of your options...that way after so long, it won't even be something that is considered for a second.

I really hope that you and your daughter find some middle ground and that you stop, breathe, think, and remove yourself from the situation (temporarily) if the urge strikes to spank again. Good luck and peace to your family.


----------



## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I wasn't trying to be harsh when I said it sounded like advocacy. I was basically saying that if itis even in your toolbox...at all.. even if it is a "last resort", then you are more or less advocating it. I think personally, it should not even be an option.

For example. Would crystal meth have *worked* to keep me awake during finals in college? Sure, they would have -- pills too or whatever....they would have definately given me the energy to pull all nighters and the edge that coffee never could. They just simply WERE NOT AN OPTION. It was not even something I would have considered. I think that is where people (imo) should be with hitting (people who desire gentle discipline). Choosing to even eliminate it from any of your options...that way after so long, it won't even be something that is considered for a second.

I really hope that you and your daughter find some middle ground and that you stop, breathe, think, and remove yourself from the situation (temporarily) if the urge strikes to spank again. Good luck and peace to your family.

This was an excellent metaphor captain!
I agree 100%.
It doesnt matter whether or not it "works" it is not even worthy of consideration.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We agree Joline.... holy crap... *waiting for the apocalypse* jk


----------



## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Correct me if I misread your OP, luckylady: it sounded to me like what "worked" was sitting down and talking with your daughter about her anger and coming up with a constructive solution for when she feels overwhelmed with emotion. If I understand your post correctly, it's NOT the threat of spanking that has stopped the behavior, but a solution that the two of you came up with together. If that's the case, then I guess I would ask why you couldn't have bypassed the spanking step altogether (say, by leaving the room when your daughter was lashing out) and had the conversation earlier?


----------



## Suzetta (Dec 21, 2003)

I have only read the first few responsed so far...but feel compelled to give my opinion.

This post struck a chord in me. I have struggled with similar issues with my child. It was all fine and dandy to say I wasn't going to spank and try to use reason etc. with just one child. No matter what she dished out, I always had ample time to focus 100% of my attention on her, and we were able to work things out.

Things changed, however, when another baby came into the picture.

Having a high energy, spirited, tempermental child is challenging...but when you see that child turn onto your defenseless baby, you realize that your view point changes. When my almost 2yo smacked the newborn baby on the head, my reaction was, of course, to do the same to her...which I did. She learned a lesson in empathy very quickly. I, on the other hand felt terrible about doing it. Did it work? Absolutely. In a perfect world, would I have ever done this to my child? No, absolutely not. However, we do not live in a perfect world. For weeks, my 2 yo would kiss the baby on the head, and say "ouch", and every time she did, my heart broke that I caused her to realize that hitting hurts. I still haven't forgiven myself...but I do know that that little 'lesson' was a shortcut to my ultimate goal of protecting the new babe.

It is easy to theorize that we will "NEVER" do something as a parent...but then things happen. We get tired, we get hungry, we get protective of our defenseless children. I have read, researched and discussed at length what kind of parent I "want" to be...but when the reality hits, I think it is important to realize that to err is human.

The op acted out of defense of her unborn baby, and should not be judged for this. In retrospect, it sounds like she has found a better way to deal with her dd....which is great. I, too, have found other ways to deal with my dd's actions towards the baby. I spend all sorts of time and effort in trying to teach them to play together, discussing feelings etc. I do not condone any sort of physical punishments, nor do I feel that it is right...but I also get really bothered when I read some of the self-righteous messages posted in this forum.

To the op...I think it took much courage for you to post your story. Good luck with your new baby, and balancing its needs with your dd's.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

There are a lot of "oh no, I spanked my child" threads here at MDC. I don't remember ever posting to one of them. This one is worded in ways to suggest that it is sometimes a good thing to do. Other posters have since offered samples of statements to this effect. The title of the thread suggests as much. The title indicates that she's worried about flames not because she hit her child, but because she's asking whether hitting ones child might an effective means of disciplining. So... I get into the thread and see more of the same. Didn't read everything, but did see "I've tried everything else... NOTHING worked, until I spanked. . . " This was not set up to be the same as: I spanked dd and feel HORRIBLE about it. Let me come up with better solutions. It was set up as: "I tried every gd strategy imagineable for months and none worked. Spanked twice -- once out of anger and once in a pre-planned way -- and voila, problem seems to be solved. So gd mamas, at the risk of upsetting you, do you think that spanking ever works?"

That was the phrasing that I read. It doesn't inspire me to hold out my arms for a hug. I really don't think that it is appropriate here and the "at the risk of starting a fire" is a pretty darn clear indicator that the op realizes that she was not merely indicating that she's sad about what she did, but that she's questioning whether there are some situations in which it might be o.k. and effective (or at least was doing so at the start of the thread). This fits with her indication that the one spanking was pre-planned.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Suzetta*
When my almost 2yo smacked the newborn baby on the head, my reaction was, of course, to do the same to her...which I did. She learned a lesson in empathy very quickly. I, on the other hand felt terrible about doing it. Did it work? Absolutely. In a perfect world, would I have ever done this to my child? No, absolutely not. However, we do not live in a perfect world. ...I do know that that little 'lesson' was a shortcut to my ultimate goal of protecting the new babe.

I see mixed messages here. We wouldn't spank if the world were perfect, it isn't, so sometimes we resort to it and it works -- really well in your case, as it was a shortcut to protecting your new baby (which of course everyone wants). You indicate feeling remorse for this, but yet you're indicating how it worked wonderfully and taught just what you wanted it to teach -- and quickly, too. Kinda sounds to me like the moms who say "oh, I had to let her CIO, I NEEDED to get some sleep. It broke my heart, but it worked like a charm."

I agree with those who pointed out that there shouldn't be a discussion of whether something that shouldn't be an option works. I find it really disturbing.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

It is easy to theorize that we will "NEVER" do something as a parent...but then things happen.
Yeah I can agree with that to a certain extent as it relates to candy, or TV, or barbies, or how old they can be when they date, or curfews... I think we have all said things like that, then changed our minds once in the situation.

Hitting a child is not one of those things. I have gone almost 30 years without having to resort to physical violence with anyone, and I won't begin with my child.

I am sorry the OP resorted to hitting her child. I hope she never does it again. I hope that she learns more effective and gentle ways to handle situations where she and her daughter are stressed out or angry.

What I resent though, are posters in support of hitting a child "when nothing else works".... either you support it or you don't. I resent the "you just wait" comments or the "you only have one child" comments.

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND REACTIONS.

I know I will never hit my child. How do I know? Am I perfect? Hell no. I know I will never hit my child because I CHOOSE NOT TO. It is a choice and it is not an option in our family.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Hitting a child is not one of those things. I have gone almost 30 years without having to resort to physical violence with anyone, and I won't begin with my child.

Actually, sometimes it is. And I will respectfully suggest that the way you relate to your child is so incredibly different than the way that you relate to anyone else in the world that trying to compare the two is somewhat baseless. Without exception, every single mother I've ever spoken with have said they have never felt such intense emotion as they have toward and about their child. This includes not only the good stuff - love, tenderness, etc. - but also the anger... sometimes rage. I really hate the "you can't know until you get there" sentiment but, really, sometimes you just can't know until you get there. I certainly didn't. I was adamant that I would never hit my child. Ever ever ever. I was feeling like I was really succeeding as a GD parent. Then one day I was severely stressed and my 3-year-old spit in my face. I smacked him on the leg. It was a sudden impulse and my hand flew before I knew what was happening. It was so horrible that I bawled for an hour and my stomach still churns when I picture his face right after it happened.

I had never hit anyone in my life before and hitting was absolutely not an option for me. But I hit him.

Am I saying that you will hit your child? Nope. And I think it's great that you tell yourself that you won't because that inner dialogue is vital. I do think, though, that telling the world that you're absolutely certain you won't ever may be a little naive... and it also doesn't seem to serve much purpose in this thread.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I agree with those who pointed out that there shouldn't be a discussion of whether something that shouldn't be an option works. I find it really disturbing.


And I also agree with this.


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I actually secretly love these types of threads because I think a lot of mom's ( me included) have been in the "ahhhh crap, I spanked my dc and now I feel bad" and I like to read the reasons why spanking DOESNT work in the long run and how there ARE other options....and the support you can get around here from the mom's who have used GD and has seen it work.....


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I am not going to judge parents who spank because they are at the end of their rope, but no, I don't think it is an effective punishment in any case.


----------



## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Would crystal meth have *worked* to keep me awake during finals in college? Sure, they would have -- pills too or whatever....they would have definately given me the energy to pull all nighters and the edge that coffee never could. They just simply WERE NOT AN OPTION. It was not even something I would have considered. I think that is where people (imo) should be with hitting (people who desire gentle discipline). Choosing to even eliminate it from any of your options...that way after so long, it won't even be something that is considered for a second.

I love this analogy


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I get the feeling that some of you have no idea what it is like to be repeatedly attacked by your child, on a daily basis. And if you think its because of your perfect parenting, then my hat is off to you. My dd has been a spitfire since day one, so I have no idea what it is like to raise a child who listens.









So before you give condescending advice to a mama who is struggling with a difficult situation, let me give you all a little insight.

My dd is very physical, very strong, and has some mild sensory issues. (Seeks excessive stimulation). She has strong emotions and a high pain tolerance herself. I get attacked almost every single day. She has hit me, kicked, me bit, headbutted me, scratched me, etc. She once started scraping at a scab I had yelling "Ow ow ow." In other words, she was trying to hurt me where I was weak. She will sometimes bite my nipple if I suggest nursie time is over - I've learned to put a finger in before I say anything.

She isn't scared of my disaproval. Getting angry at her amps her up, and she fights harder.

Yes, I walk away. And I walk away. And occasionally I put her in her room so I can cool off. But when I've been attacked for the fifth time in 20 minutes, at the end of a long day, the urge to _defend myself_ rages. It is in these moments I want to spank.

I've never spanked, I will be heartbroken if I ever do. But I under what the OP meant when she said her protective instinct kicked in. Bad choice, yes. But it wasn't punishment, at least not in intent. It wasn't "You've made me mad so I'm going to hurt you." It was "IhavetogethertostophurtingmeNOW."

There *is* a slippery slope, as the OP experienced the next time she spanked. Because you do want to defend yourself.

So no, spanking is not an effective discipline tool. Hitting can be effective during a moment of self-defense, but I'd rather keep looking for ways to avoid the need to protect myself through physical violence, especially with my precious child. She may be a wolverine cub, but I love her to pieces.


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't think the judgements are coming from the actual spanking. Truthfully, I have never seen a mama get flamed or judged on here who has said something like "I spanked and now I feel like crap...help me not do it again!" or something similar. In those threads I see a lot of compassion and understanding and help offered...

Where I think this thread is a bit different is that in my opinion, the way I read it, I interpreted the post to be saying -- "I strive to be GD but when nothing worked, I spanked and that worked. Are you sure it isn't okay to spank in extreme situations?" I know these weren't the poster's words, but that is how it read to me and, it seems, to some others. That is why I think there is a sentiment of upset in some posts, including mine.

I read some responses that are along the lines of "sure, we don't want to ever spank, but under extreme circumstances, it is effective and what else are we supposed to do if our child is hitting us first" and comments of that nature.

That sounds like advocacy and it isn't supposed to be a part of this board. The board is meant to be ANTI spanking...in every situation... not anti-spanking until your child hits you or drives you crazy then it might be okay if it stops the behavior.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but those sentiments, or similar is what drove my responses.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

captain crunchy
Where I think this thread is a bit different is that in my opinion said:


> See, I saw this as a "I have always subscribed to the GD way of disciplining, but I spanked my kid twice, and, guess what? It stopped the problem when I hadn't been able to stop it with GD. Now what?"
> 
> Not an advocacy of spanking. A sort of shock that this entire situation has come about.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
And I still don't think that anyone has said, "No, don't hit your kids unless they hit you." I know what I meant in my post was, "I'm not surprised that the urge to strike happened when you've been repeatedly assaulted by your child." What ARE we supposed to do when we can't get our kids to stop hurting us? It's a question, not an advocacy of spanking.

I agree, dharmamama. And I think that the answer to the question was that spanking does work to stop behavior. Which is scary, like many of the pps said, because if you are very frustrated and stressed, it's easy to resort to that. I totally understand where the op's coming from, I think the dynamic is the same with yelling or scolding, at least it has been for me. I also agree with Dragonfly, I have been endlessly surprised by my children and my reaction to them.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I definitely agree with captain crunchy and see everything that she sees in between the lines of this thread (without having to look very deep into them).

There is a lot here that is coming across as supportive of spanking. Here is another thing to consider. Imagine a mom who read this thread is having a HORRID day -- absolutely stressful. Child attacks her for the fifth time. Mom is thinking in her head: "OMG This has GOT to STOP!!!" She remember this thread and is desperate. It gives her the incentive not to restrain herself, but to spank. "Hey, I've heard that it works when GD options fail and I'm totally FED UP and DESPERATE." Just what a mom should take from MDC, eh? She can also come back here afterwards for some support to help her deal with feeling bad about herself for resorting to violence. But hey, it's so hard to control ourselves, especially when we have #2 to protect, and one or two occasions of spanking isn't apt to cause any permanent damage, right?!?

Dechen, I think it's wonderful that you've been able to avoid spanking your dd. I would bet that all moms here have a pretty good idea about just how stressful parenting can be. Even though Simon is not overly agressive against me or dh (unless we violate his space or otherwise disrespect him), I can imagine being pushed further and further. I would like to hear more about situations such as yours --cases in which moms repeatedly deal with the most spank-likely situations without resorting to spanking. What is it that helps you get through them without resorting to violence? Just the fact that there are moms in these situations who do not resort to violence needs to be emphasized. I can't stand the normalization of violence in mainstream culture, let alone here at MDC.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
There is a lot here that is coming across as supportive of spanking. Here is another thing to consider. Imagine a mom who read this thread is having a HORRID day -- absolutely stressful. Child attacks her for the fifth time. Mom is thinking in her head: "OMG This has GOT to STOP!!!" She remember this thread and is desperate. It gives her the incentive not to restrain herself, but to spank. "Hey, I've heard that it works when GD options fail and I'm totally FED UP and DESPERATE." Just what a mom should take from MDC, eh? She can also come back here afterwards for some support to help her deal with feeling bad about herself for resorting to violence. But hey, it's so hard to control ourselves, especially when we have #2 to protect, and one or two occasions of spanking isn't apt to cause any permanent damage, right?!?

Sheesh, Dal, if a mother is rationalizing her spanking because a poster on MDC did it, then I don't think offering a few words of empathy to the OP on this thread is going to stop her. There's a world of difference between supporting spanking, and acknowledging the desire, and I would suggest you are reading a little too much between the lines. And it's VERY important to recognize the triggers that make you feel like you're going to lose it, IMO. It's all well and good to say that you'll never ever strike your child, and maybe you and Captain Crunchy are way, way different than me, but I like to feel prepared when I feel myself getting angry. I don't feel like I'm telling anyone it's just fine to spank when there's nothing else working when I say, "Boy, I know how you feel. I've really felt like that before, too."


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

From your OP i think you did the right thing.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

My point was not that the "I'm sorry I spanked" threads are apt to lead to spanking -- though I do think they pose this risk insofar as they normalize it as something that frequently happens to otherwise good parents. My point was that this thread serves to leave moms with the impression that spanking works, and quickly too. This is apt to come at them in the heat of the moment, soooo, rather than muster their all to keep themselves together, they may instead bend to the desire to stop the undesired behaviour ASAP even if this means striking their child. The good moms at MDC do it, it works, so why shouldn't I do it? I'm pushed to the limits.

I agree that every parent needs to prepare for feelings that suggest throwing one's child out the window or doing things that are emotionally or physically damaging. The point in recognizing these triggers is to learn how to deal with them without harming one's child or one's own self respect. Nowhere did I suggest that I've never FELT like harming Simon or that anyone who has these feelings is evil or whatnot. I have never taken issue with the feelings that a person has. Sometimes people do not control themselves or otherwise resort to spanking. That is one thing and it bothers me -- a lot. That said, I stay out of those threads. This one is different.

Your reading may not see pro-spanking sentiments. Mine does see them -- and they are loud and clear (and not just the most recent lovely addition). Who is to say that women who are on the fence are not going to come here and see what I see, perhaps without having any disgust for spanking and without a commitment to parenting gently? How about the last poster, who came to MDC and found that -- ha ha -- here is evidence that GD doesn't work, at least not all of the time.

My point again is that MDC should not be handing out rationalizations or supports for spanking, and they are certainly included in this thread. Clearly not everyone is reading it this way, but it can also be, and is also being, read as supportive of spanking.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
My point was not that the "I'm sorry I spanked" threads are apt to lead to spanking -- though I do think they pose this risk insofar as they normalize it as something that frequently happens to otherwise good parents.

I don't think that reading about gd parents who spanked is what normalizes it. I think what normalizes it is that it's how many/most of us were raised.

Quote:

My point was that this thread serves to leave moms with the impression that spanking works, and quickly too.
I think that most of us "know" that spanking "works," at least by the definition people in this thread have used. I think that, in this culture, the idea that spanking "works" is hard to escape.

Quote:

This is apt to come at them in the heat of the moment, soooo, rather than muster their all to keep themselves together, they may instead bend to the desire to stop the undesired behaviour ASAP even if this means striking their child. The good moms at MDC do it, it works, so why shouldn't I do it? I'm pushed to the limits.
I know that, for myself, what the "good moms at MDC" are doing is the last thing that enters my mind when I'm in "the zone." What goes through my mind is the way I was raised. And it's not even a conscious thought, it's just a feeling. I think that what we are battling down is how we were raised, not what some people we have never met and never even seen, just read about on some website, are doing.

And yes, I just had an epiphany in that although I don't think that an occasional spanking always and irrefutably damages the parent-child relationship, it does set up that imprint of how we are raised, which can be very hard to escape. I've never thought about it quite like that before. Yet another reason not to spank, but then again, not exactly the point of this thread.

I actually think that this thread is valuable precisely because it lets the cat out of the bag about spanking. Yes, it "works." We don't have to keep that horrible, rotten secret anymore. Now that we know that, what are we going to do with that knowledge? How are we going to deal with the desire to use that quick fix? How are we going to overcome our knowledge that yes, there is one thing that would stop the behavior right now? How are we going to beat down the desire to just GET THAT KID TO STOP? Saying, "I would never hit my kid because it's just NOT an option" doesn't address the underlying urge and, frankly, just sounds self-righteous.

So many times here I see people say the equivalent of "How could anyone ever hit their kid?" Well, now we have the answer. Because sometimes people lose the battle to surpress the urge to get their kid to STOP when they "know" that hitting their kid will get their kid to stop. Now that we know the answer to that question, let's work together to figure out what to do in those situations where THE KID WON'T STOP.

Namaste!


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Deleted.

Pat


----------



## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Dharmamam,

Boy your good! I don't think I have anything to add to the discussion. DM said it well and I'll reiterate that I don't blame the OP; get past the incident and rehearse a plan in your for what you will do next time.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

This looks like a debate of the merits of spanking, so I'm guessing the thread won't make it much farther, but I just want to say...if you think of spanking/punishment as as option, other creative ways of responding just won't come forward in those moments of stress.

Hitting people, especially people smaller than you, is always wrong.

And b/f anyone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about I have a 70 lb 5 year old who is almost as strong as me with sensory issues and an allergy to wheat that makes her act in aggressive ways toward me (and only me and occasionally dp).

Yeah, it's a drag, but I know when she's acting that way she's hurting. I don't care one little bit if she'd act differently if I hit her. I don't care if it would never damage our relationship. I don't hit because hitting is wrong and I don't want my future grandchildren hit.

With that option out of the way, there are an infinite number of other responses available to me, some constructive and some not as constructive. But *all* better than hitting someone.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

dharmamama ,

I'm a fairly analytical and conceptually driven person. It is not rare for me to try to figure out what I should be doing in the heat of a very stressful moment, and sometimes doing this leads me to wonder how mothers who I admire would respond to the situation. The information that I've recently been thinking about tends to surface when I'm in decision-making mode. If I've been thinking a lot about redirection, that's what comes to mind first; if I've been thinking about heaping love on Simon when he's "acting out", that tends to come first. I think that hearing about I spanked, you spanked, not much harm, not much foul, it worked, and yada yada raises that to a similar level of consciousness -- making it more apt to be there when someone is desperately searching and trying to figure out how to respond to a particularly challenging situation. Now granted, not everyone functions in a similar way, but I would venture to guess that there are plenty of other people who do operate similarly to how I do.

Spanking is private around here (I'm in Ontario, Canada) -- thank goodness for that!!! It is typically not on my mind. I have not thought of it as effective, and do not think of it as such. I don't see it as curbing undesired behaviours. I see it as the look in the child's face who has been hit by her mother. I see it as the humiliating experience that I was put through, which fit with "good" parenting practices of the day, right down to the horrendous "this hurts me more than it hurts you" speech (which itself makes me completely uncomfortable to recall, and led to intense feelings of disgust -- I recall my own inner dialogue at the time (though not the precise words): That is such total b.s.; if it's so problematic to you, then don't do it).

Anyway... what this thread offers in comparison to my usual take on hitting children is the view that it works, that it was a simple little act, carried out twice, that led to the desired result. It is not going to sway my mind in the slightest, but I am not so sure that this is the same with other readers. Rather, I think it very likely that a reader could leave this thread more committed to spanking, or less opposed to it, than before having read it. Lest I be directed to the anti-spanking sentiments: Not everyone reads every word.

There are varying degrees of GD moms here (as well as those who are not GD). That is not a newsflash. It should not be a newsflash that some experiment with spanking -- and deliberately. This is a huge community. Even though this community as a whole is opposed to spanking, there are people here who have used it, and those who continue to use it as a method of disciplining their children. Certainly few are apt to admit to this here, but this doesn't mean that these people are not here. I would not be surprised if the sentiments in this thread are taken as incentive to spank (wittingly or not), nor would I be surprised if this thread has already resulted in a spanking.

I'm cringing at the word "spank." I think I'll stop using it.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I guess it's clear, Dal, that there are differences of opinion on whether this thread is helpful. To you, it's not. To some of us, it is. Maybe, instead of speculating on what may, might, or could happen when some unspecified mom reads this thread, we could just accept the fact that some of us find it helpful in dealing with/resisting the urge to strike.

Namaste!


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
Hitting people, especially people smaller than you, is always wrong.

I've only seen one person on this thread say otherwise.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Deleted.

Pat


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Dharmamama, so this thread is fine b/c some moms find it helpful, even if there are good reasons to think that others may take it as incentive to hit their children? I'd say that if there is a possibility of the latter, this thread is a dangerous one that does not fit with MDC standards.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Dal, so this thread is bad b/c some moms may take it as incentive to hit their children, even if there are good reasons to think that others may find it helpful?

You are speculating about what *might* happen. I am stating factually what *is* happening. This thread *is* helping people.

What if a mom came to the GD forum and read all the vents and rants of frustrated moms and said to herself, "Gee, this GD stuff is for the birds, look at all these moms whose kids are ill-behaved! I'll keep my kids in line with a good spanking!" Should people then not vent and rant because of what someone might take from that thread? I don't think we can be responsible for what others *might* take from our threads. We can't control those hypotheticals.

Dal, your position seems like the abstinence approach to sex ed: If we just don't talk about it, if we just say "Don't do it," people won't do it.

Namaste!


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

As a reminder, this forum's intent is "to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children" not to debate spanking. Please PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.

Quote:

Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

*Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive*.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Dal, so this thread is bad b/c some moms may take it as incentive to hit their children, even if there are good reasons to think that others may find it helpful?

YES! There are less dangerous ways to discuss the frustrations that lead parents to hit their children, and how to deal with them, than to do so under the guise of a discussion about whether hitting children is an effective means of controlling them. Or is it the other way around? Why go to a thread about whether hitting children works when looking for helpful advice? That sounds like something one might do on a mainstream board in which hitting children into submission is taken as a real option. Hitting children is not an option here, rather it's taken as a pretty darn nasty thing to do, so why on earth engage in a discussion about whether it's effective? Especially one that has so much to say to someone who is looking for a reason to hit her child (not intentionally -- I'm thinking more of someone who is really frustrated and who may be vulnerable to the idea that hitting might work to solve their problem).

I see parts of this thread as setting up pros and cons of hitting children. Much that has been said presents hitting children as a live option.

To respond to an earlier point... hitting children can be normalized within this community if it comes to be seen as something that frequently happens when moms get pushed to the limits. Perhaps this is already the case here. Given how many "I spanked" threads that come up, I do see this as a threat. Expectations shape behaviour. If one gathers from these frequent threats that, hey, I'm human too, so when I'm pushed to the limits I'll probably end up spanking too, that makes it that much more likely to happen. Consider, e.g., the typical response I've seen to someone's suggestion that she will never hit her child. It's basically a variant of the "OOOH!!! You just wait and see!!!" "Just wait until YOU have two children and the oldest hits the youngest!!! We'll see how well you do in that situation." "Ohhh.... you clearly don't have a child like my Johnny!!!"

I did not say that it is not o.k. to talk about hitting children. I do however think that MDC starts from the position that this is WRONG and that MDC does not want to endorse hitting children.

To borrow your sex-ed analogy. I see this as comparable to including content that claims to be about (and perhaps takes itself as) a legit discussion of the evils of child pornography, but that contains content that many readers take as erotic representations of children. E.g., imagine a thread with the title "is it ever o.k. to present children engaged in erotic acts?" This is followed by a conversation that -- among other things -- gets into the horrors of child pornography and how to steer clear from it. Many posters talk about being turned on by the child porn. Some are angry with the discussion, saying that some of the content, and the set up of the discussion, supports child porn. Clearly there is a problem in such a situation, right? Funny (well... not really) that this isn't so readily apparent when it comes to hitting children. I take that as a further sign that this behaviour has been normalized.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I have read through this thread and struggled with hearing about *intentionally* hitting a child to alter his behavior, as punishment, as shock value (?). I agree that there seem to be a number of posts which agree that in order to stop an undesirable behavior in the moment, that hitting someone would be effective. This seems erroneous to me. And against the posting guidelines of this site, and especially the GD forum.

I actually understand quite well the emotional overload that a parent could feel with being physically impacted by their child. Below is a recent PM of mine about this issue. However, what I do know is that the same 'out of control' feeling that I have experienced is *exactly* what my child is experiencing. And I wouldn't want someone to hit me when I feel my most vulnerable and least emotionally stable. Especially if someone I loved, hit me in my moment of need for comfort and communication of loving support, hit me after threatening to do so.







I don't believe that I would or could feel the same level of trust and unconditional support that I had before hand; nor able to feel more emotionally abled to think with my head, rather than from the new confusion of fear.

Quote:

Between you and me and the lampost, it does get harder when they turn about age 2, 3, 4. (I don't yet know what is in store for me in his teens







) I knew I would never hit our son, but I tell you, I have emotionally (out of control angry) come this close to it. Wanting to just stop the behavior immediately. I have worked really, really hard to learn to temper that hot button.

Well, I have more than one hot button unfortunately. My main one is being held against my will. And intellectually, I know that he is just a small child, and my own at that. But there is something visceral that takes over my emotions when I feel trapped. Like when I am cutting chicken up and my hands are dirty and occupied and our son will come up and grab my legs. I can not move. I feel imprisoned. That strong of an emotion! I know it is all the childhood baggage, and it really wasn't much of an issue until he was older. But, there is something about when you feel that you *have to* to do something that needs to happen NOW!!; and the child refuses to participate, it is hard to get to that healthy emotional place of 'what does *HE* need?', from the deep emotion of "I NEED xyz!!!". Again, my childhood *need* (baggage) feels unheard and I had to learn to move past the emotion to some cognitive awareness that this isn't the past. It is now.

I have found that choosing to live without time constraints or expectations (as much as possible) helps more than anything else. And stepping back to B....R.....E....A....T...H....

Similarly, when there is some physical impact, that is totally developmentally appropriate: pinching, hitting, kicking, striking out in anger physically, and most recently 'I am going to hit you'. Wow. My self-protective fight or flight emotion is this close to the surface, and I am 43! No way at 21, 25, 30 years old, could I have had the self-awareness and self-control that this requires not to act on.

I am sure that oour son too will have 'things to heal from'. I become aware of more things that I could model more effectively, more healthfully everyday. We are all on a journey in progress. Interesting, the recipe of non-coercion parenting and coercive upbringing is the hardest road to choose, in many ways. Hardest from an 'expect myself to change and grow'; but not hardest from an 'expect others to change' perspective.

The same degree of certainty that you have that you would NOT TOLERATE being hit by anyone, not once, is the same visceral reaction that occurs from being hit by our son. The same, NO!. It is beyond the rational. It is scary to experience. I hope that your child never pushes your hottest buttons, but they do. Having the fortitude and certainty that you will not hit, no matter what, is not a one time decision. It is tested in the heat of the emotional overload. And it is hard. But, new communication tools and a new paradigm of focusing on *underlying needs* helps me to find the rational part of my being. Practicing this consideration and belief in their inherent innocence helps. But, you get a lot more practice starting at age 18-36 months.
We have a son who has sensory seeking behaviors, and has food intolerances to multiple ingredients which temporarilly (chemically/systemically) obstruct his ability to consider other people's needs and respect other's personal body space boundaries. Dairy cause him to become aggressive. The onset is about one hour after consumption, and lasts for 1-6 hours, depending on quantity consumed. Soy makes him hyper, wild and bouncing off the walls for hours. Same with artificial colors red and yellow. Wheat makes him restless and disturbs his sleep, such that we end up with night wakings, early wakings, difficulty settling down for the night and restless legs while sleeping which seem to be a factor in the wakings. Daytime consumption of wheat, in large portions causes increased vocalizations of loud sounds and disturbances to others in the home with limited ability of self-control. I list these all out specifically in order to share the dietary elements that could be physically altering a child's behaviors. We obviously attempt to avoid these food ingredients according to the Feingold Diet. We also attempt to avoid salicylate loading. Many foods are high in salicylates and when our son consumes large quantities of strawberries, peaches, or blueberries, or OJ, he again is more hyper and has less self-awareness and less self-control.

DS knows these food issues and voluntarily avoids them about 95% of the time. Other times, life is interesting. He is 4.5 y/o. And very strong. What we have found which helps, in addition to food awareness, is to proactively meet his sensory seeking needs. We have a mattress on the floor of his room and an old couch. He jumps and jumps and jumps on both, throughout the day when he has excess energy. We purchased a trampoline; and we initiate a lot of outdoor large motor movement activities, including kicking, throwing, digging and raking (in sand and dirt) and riding his bike for long periods of time and racing up and down the driveway. These activities are essential to his physical and emotional well being. And mine too. When he gets angry, he is a physical child. When he is sleeping, eating and playing, he is a physical child. Helping him to be aware of what his body needs and when he feels healthy and happy and when he doesn't is a major focus of my parenting and nurturing. We discuss 'listening to your body', and 'watching your body's cues' of clenched fists, raised voice, too much energy, bumping into things, getting into people's space, etc. and discuss how protein helps to moderate our blood sugar, how caffeine amps us up and how sugary foods only 'feel good' for a short while. (Oh, I forgot, we avoid high fructose corn syrup too for the same hyped up reasons.)

So, my point is that there are many more GD ways to address the *underlying needs.* Additionally, we have used Rescue Remedy and Cherry Plum. Both are Bach flower remedies for helping with upsets or 'feeling out of control'. My main concern is that our son doesn't 'feel right' when he doesn't 'act right', as Dr. Sears says. So, my job is to help to find what is obstructing him from feeling his best, not add to his burdens with threats, fear and intimidation.

The tools of reflective listening which are discussed in How to Talk so Kids will Listen and How to Listen so Kids will Talk helped me to learn more effective communication skills of validation and giving what is desired in fantasy, and seeking to understand the underlying needs, and always assuming *good* intent, even when actions or behaviors are out of control. These skills have helped me to parent my "inner child" who is _reacting_ to being hit too. I have learned why I feel so angry about what I experience as an assault, when my child is flailing for help. I also found the book "Raising Your Spirited Child" and "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" to be quite informative and transformative to more cooperative communciations in our family.

I hope my post adds some new GD tools to your toolbox. When we default to a quick fix, we *stop* seeking a real solution to the real problem. Hitting a child for being out of self-control, doesn't eliminate the underlying need. So, the need resurfaces, and resurfaces, and resurfaces, until a more effective solution is found. Hitting the child doesn't solve anything; but it creates many more problems of an adversarial relationship.

In the heat of the moment, I agree with what Maya44 said to do. And with whoever said that using peaceful methods of stepping away to protect yourself is more effective modelling of anger management than hitting would be.

Pat

_Be the change you wish to see.~Buddha_


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
To borrow your sex-ed analogy

Telling kids that sex before marriage is a sin and just DON'T DO IT because nothing good will come of it doesn't stop teenage sex. Study after study proves this. Inevitably, some kids have sex anyway, and then they discover what the adults have tried to hide from them: sex feels good, sex can deepen a relationship, sex does not always lead to spontaneous combustion. What are we going to do now that kids have this knowledge? We can't go back to just, "It's wrong, it's bad, don't do it."

Telling kids that using drugs is wrong and JUST SAY NO and that if you use drugs your body will fall apart and you'll become a junkie in a nanosecond doesn't work (witness the widely recognized failure of DARE programs). Inevitably some kids will try drugs, and then they discover what adults have tried to hide from them: drugs are fun, and you can actually use drugs without becoming an emaciated addict (this from personal experience as a teenager). What are we going to do now that kids have this knowledge? We can't go back to just, "It's wrong, it's bad, don't do it."

We can't live in fear that if people find out that spanking "works" in the short-term that they'll do it. People have to examine the issue in ALL its facets before they can actually CHOOSE not to spank rather than merely being cowed into not doing it. I think that people have to have ALL the knowledge before they can truly make a choice.

Namaste!


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

For the most part, I don't disagree with anything that you've said, Dharmamama. But I still feel that this discussion is dangerous. You've returned to your analogy without considering how I've applied it to show you the problem that I'm seeing here. To use my use of your analogy again... I'm not saying "Don't talk about child porn... ever" I'm saying "It's fine to talk about child porn, but keep material that eroticizes children out of the picture."

From what you say it sounds like you think that MDC should allow conversations from all angles on the issue -- AS IF HITTING CHILDREN IS AN OPTION. This is not their stance, and for good reason. This is not a place for advocating hitting. MDC has risen above the place in which this is a live option. I think that is a very good thing, just as it is good to rise above the place in which it is not problematic to present children as sexual objects. I don't care to hear defenses of child porn and don't care to hear defenses of hitting children. There are enough of the latter out there already and they do lead to further incidents of hitting. MDC does not need to contribute to that in any which way. On the contrary, MDC should (and usually does) work towards finding better options. This can include conversations about what to do with feelings of rage. I'm advocating nothing more than the already mandated limitation against saying things here that support hitting children.


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
We can't live in fear that if people find out that spanking "works" in the short-term that they'll do it. People have to examine the issue in ALL its facets before they can actually CHOOSE not to spank rather than merely being cowed into not doing it. I think that people have to have ALL the knowledge before they can truly make a choice.

Namaste!

Maybe it is the Buddhism talking, but I agree.









I thought this thread was a good example of what happens when you think dangerous thoughts ("Spanking works. Ack") and bring them to the discussion table. No, I don't think MDC should host debates on the merits of spanking, but to have a non-spanking mama come to other non-spanking mamas on a forum that is anti-spanking for advice when she had an alarming thought - I think its great.

The message has been loud and clear that no, spanking doesn't work in any profound, desirable way, and hey lets brainstorm about better ways.

What if the OP, instead of having the confidence/trust/audacity to write her post, had instead allowed the seeds of doubt to blossom quietly. "Maybe those GD people aren't really correct. Or maybe they are right about my kind of kid. Perhaps GD isn't the right approach for someone in my position." And then chose to continue physical punishment?

I like how she handled it.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
AS IF HITTING CHILDREN IS AN OPTION.

I don't think that MDC is a place where hitting is not an option. I think it is a place where it is acknowledged that the option of hitting is not supported.

Namaste!


----------



## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I've read through the thread and hope it's ok to jump in so late







My girls are 6 and 8 and I can't tell you how many times when they were young I would hear "just wait and see, 'everyone' spanks". Well, I would just smile and nod and as it turns out, I have never spanked. I'm not saying this to say I'm "GDer than thou" or whatever it is that people say







but to say that I found the secret for me. Over the years, my buttons have been pushed but what I learned was that *no one* controls my emotions but me. Wow, was that revolutionary. I could control my reactions to ANY situation. I read about this in Thich Nhat Hahn "Peace in Every Step" and in "Happiness is Choice" by Barry Kaufman. I had my doubts but when I started to practice it REALLY worked. It worked when people were being rude at a store or when my dds were pushing buttons. When I'm in control of my emotions we are all in a better position to solve problems. I have talked to my dds about this too, they understand that we ALWAYS have the choice of how we react.

The focus in our family is to live joyfully, this practice has helped so much in that pursuit.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am not disagreeing with either of you.
















If a mama comes here and says "I hit my child, I feel horrible", there are two basic reactions she might receive: 'Hitting is not ok, hitting is wrong, there are better alternatives, I am going to punish (shame) you for hitting'; or 'Wow, what is going on? You sound overwhelmed, what can be done to get to a better place and tell me how I can help?' The first may (or may not) stop the behavior in the moment (or the future); the second addresses the underlying needs in an atmosphere of trust and support.

The reason hitting *doesn't work* is because the first reaction 'Kicking is not ok, kicking is wrong, there are better alternatives, I am going to punish ("spank") you for kicking' doesn't address the underlying needs. INSTEAD, 'Wow, what is going on? you are so angry you want to kick, what can you do to get to a better place and how can I help you?' will help to resolve the need to act out physically, in an atmosphere of trust and support.

However, additionally, I do believe that every individual has the final say of what is or is not "ok" or "wrong" for someone to do to their body: both adult and child. So, I am comfortable communicating that "it is not ok (or it is wrong) to kick me". But some children are not comfortable (read "allowed") to communicate that "it is not ok (or it is wrong) to hit (read "spank") me".

So, yes. *Hitting another person is not ok* (with the person at the end of the hand/paddle). Therefore, _it is not an option_, except in consensual relationships such as boxing, football, sex, wrestling. *How we model* addressing the violation is what is learned as the way to react in the future. If we model violating others, that is what is reinforced as "right", no matter what our words say to the contrary .

Pat


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I respect your views very much, Pat, so I hope you will take this with the respect that I hope to convey.

I feel as though with your first few paragraphs above, you're preaching to the choir.







I think we all know why hitting does not work in the long-term - it's been expressed many times in this very thread - and that it is an issue of autonomy, personal integrity, and respect.

With this:

Quote:

So, yes. Hitting another person is not ok (with the person at the end of the hand/paddle). Therefore, it is not an option, except in consensual relationships such as boxing, football, sex, wrestling. How we model addressing the violation is what is learned as the way to react in the future. If we model violating others, that is what is reinforced as "right", no matter what our words say to the contrary .
It seems as though the point of contention here is one of semantics. You say "hitting is not an option" and you are correct if you are expressing the statement as an ideal that we tell ourselves in order to have our actions follow our thoughts. However, when others say, "hitting is an option," they're also correct because the possibility that someone will strike out physically despite their thoughts exists. It's something that is within the realm of plausibility despite our best intentions and despite the number of times we might repeat our "hitting is not an option" to ourselves.

We all know that hitting another person is never OK. I imagine if the OP felt it was okay, then she would not have started this thread.


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Can I ask you all a question? I am wondering why we WOULDNT talk about spanking as an option here on this board BECAUSE.....I think it's SUPER important to show mamas who are coming to this board for the first or 100th time that spanking is just not an option and is wrong and the way I see to do that is to show BOTH sides of the spanking spectrum. The more we talk about why we DONT spank, the more it makes sense......in other words, we see great threads here about talking with our children, using gentle words, gentle actions, etc.....but what about the mama who comes here and thinks......"how can you never spank your child and still maintain discipline......how can you NOT spank your child when they misbehave?" I have knowns PLENTY of mamas with this mindset......so I think it totally helps for us to hash out why spanking DOESNT work on these boards....and even talk about why it does work in the short run BUT look at the damage it does in the long run so that ALL mamas can make an informed decision about gd'ing.......I hope that makes sense....I"m articulately challenged


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Dagonfly,

I appreciate your point; but hitting a child is being discussed in this thread, as an intentional act with forethought, and whether or not *it "works".* These are cognitive decision making processes. Not the situation you described where one's emotions override one's beliefs and ideals. One's certainty (or commitment) of one's beliefs is what creates the space for ambivilence or ambiguity in one's actions. Actions stem from core beliefs. In my core, I believe that it is not ok for me to be hit, _or to hit_. Not a unilateral belief that only '*I* must not be hit, or else I will hit back, even if it is a child, or even if it is my child'.

Pat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I respect your views very much, Pat, so I hope you will take this with the respect that I hope to convey.

I feel as though with your first few paragraphs above, you're preaching to the choir.







I think we all know why hitting does not work in the long-term - it's been expressed many times in this very thread - and that it is an issue of autonomy, personal integrity, and respect.

With this:

It seems as though the point of contention here is one of semantics. You say "hitting is not an option" and you are correct if you are expressing the statement as an ideal that we tell ourselves in order to have our actions follow our thoughts. However, when others say, "hitting is an option," they're also correct because the possibility that someone will strike out physically despite their thoughts exists. It's something that is within the realm of plausibility despite our best intentions and despite the number of times we might repeat our "hitting is not an option" to ourselves.

We all know that hitting another person is never OK. I imagine if the OP felt it was okay, then she would not have started this thread.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

scubamamaIf we model violating others said:


> I agree or at the very least, we are saying "well hitting is wrong, but inflicting that wrong is ok when the ends justify the means."
> 
> Do you really have any desire at all to teaching a child that hitting is a legitimte means to an end?
> 
> I don't. It is not at all what I want my child to learn. So how can "hitting" a child ever "work"?


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I agree or at the very least, we are saying "well hitting is wrong, but inflicting that wrong is ok when the ends justify the means."

Do you really have any desire at all to teaching a child that hitting is a legitimte means to an end?

I don't. It is not at all what I want my child to learn. So how can "hitting" a child ever "work"?

I agree, hitting is not a legitimate means to an end. I am a pacifist. I "teach" that by modelling. The alternative belief is "might makes right".

_With our thoughts, we create the world.~Buddha_

Pat


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

My bolds:

Quote:

I am wondering why we WOULDNT talk about *spanking as an option* here on this board BECAUSE.....I think it's SUPER important to show mamas who are coming to this board for the first or 100th time that *spanking is just not an option*
See, it's confusing









I don't have time to read every post at this time, but I wanted to address this







MDC advocates the belief that its the parents' responsibilty to nuture the positive rather than to curb a child's tendencies toward "negative" behavior, it would be inconsistant with MDC's mission to ever present spanking as *an option*. In this forum, spanking may be discussed, but not advocated nor presented as a tool in the GD toolbox. No matter what circumstances.

Hope that clarifies?


----------



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

There is a permanent thread with all the pertinent anti-"spanking" arguments and a multitude of links. Moms who are on the fence or whatnot about it can easily find this thread to get a feel for the position that is advocated by MDC. Those links and the info in the sticky go over all of the common reasons for thinking that hitting children is a good thing to do or that it is sometimes a necessary or effective means of disciplining them.

I think that MDC is in the right to conclude that there is more than sufficient proof (readily available in that sticky) to rule out hitting children as an option. What is the point in continually going over the exact same arguments with newbies or regular members who are thinking of hitting their children? Who is to say which views will be taken from a given thread if MDC allowed posters to support hitting children? How then would MDC be different from other parenting websites? Many would not listen to the rock solid arguments that are readily accessible in the sticky (or bother to read them) and would just continue to post pro-"spanking" sentiments at every opportunity. Others might be confused by the hub-bub of pro- and anti-"spanking" sentiment, oscillating between the two views (not keeping all the info in the sticky in mind). Some may benefit from the discussions and come out of them with a greater anti-"spanking" resolve, but this would be done at a cost to those who take home the pro-"spanking" sentiment contained in the threads (wittingly or not) -- and to their children. I see little benefit and great risks of opening up the discussions at MDC to allow more voice to pro-"spanking" sentiments.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

The Gentle discipline forum guidelines don't condone the use of physical discipline. Please see posts #69 and #83 within this thread for clarification. Here are the posting guidelines which are on a sticky at the top of the forum.

Quote:

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

_Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.
Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline._

Pat


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Deleted.


----------



## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Seriously, does it take more than 2 minutes on MDC to realize that NO ONE here advocates hitting children, EVER for ANY reason!


----------

