# Studies show that CIO is just fine and better for secure attachment!



## J2 (Aug 12, 2006)

_*What?!*_

*sigh*








:

Studies are showing that CIO is just fine. Obviously this is wrong as we have all seen studies that show that CIO is definitely NOT fine. Additionally, they say that baby will have a stronger and more secure attachment if left to CIO.

This makes me very sad as parents are completely being steered in THE WRONG direction.

Quote:

But many experts say that a few tear-filled nights during sleep training won't do your baby any harm. The handful of studies that looked at the emotional impact of crying it out clearly showed better parent-child attachment after sleep training

Quote:

the studies revealed that infants who went through sleep training were more secure and predictable, and cried and fussed less, than those who weren't trained.

Quote:

We're fairly certain that sleep training doesn't have any long-term negative effects," Mindell says. "If you love your child and are a responsive parent and then let your child cry three nights in a row to teach her how to sleep, that's fine."
http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/bab...:20342:10012#1


----------



## Momma2SoSweet (Feb 25, 2007)

I just read that this morning too.







: To think all those who are going to try it now...


----------



## AlbertaJes (May 11, 2006)

Um, yea they cry less. They've learned that it won't do them any good.


----------



## MommytoHHH (Sep 12, 2006)

I was just coming here about this!

I got this in my e-mail this morning and wanted to puke! Someone has already posted it on a mainstream board I go to saying 'look we're not bad parents afterall'. :sigh:

Does anyone know how to find these "studies" that the article refers to? It's interesting to me that they don't actually cite them...


----------



## noah's mom (Jan 3, 2006)

So sad. I'm always skeptical of articles that cite "studies" (which studies?) but don't give you a chance to read the "studies" for yourself.


----------



## J2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoHHH* 
Someone has already posted it on a mainstream board I go to saying 'look we're not bad parents afterall'.

If someone has to say that...then it obvoiusly means there is something in their parenting that they have been doubting anyway and they do realize that what they are doing is not the best. *sigh*


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I've only known 3 people who CIO, but those babies didn't cry for just a few nights. All 3 cry themselves to sleep every single night. Most of the time they sleep through, but if they wake, they cry themselves back to sleep. When they're teething, they cry through the night. When they have separation anxiety, they cry. When they're sick, they cry. The parents I know who use CIO complain about how often they have to 'retrain' their babies.

It seems really absurd to characterize CIO as something that takes 3 nights and then is done with. If that was true, I can see that they might have a point that it's not that harmful.

It would be interesting to read the actual study, rather than just their snippets. It would be really good to know how they determined long-term effects.


----------



## De-lovely (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlbertaJes* 
Um, yea they cry less. They've learned that it won't do them any good.

Exactly-poor babies.....


----------



## Patrice#1 (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laurabelle1317* 
Additionally, they say that baby will have a stronger and more secure attachment if left to CIO.


This does not even make common sense!...If I let a baby cry and cry, then they will be more secure? That is totally crazy!


----------



## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1083020.ece

"_Margot Sunderland, director of education at the Centre for Child Mental Health in London, says the practice, known as "co-sleeping", makes children more likely to grow up as calm, healthy adults._" Based on 800 scientific studies.


----------



## caligirl (Jul 2, 2004)

_"However, not everyone believes that cry it out is harmless. Robert Sears, a pediatrician and co-author of The Baby Sleep Book, which encourages sharing a bed with your baby, points to studies that suggest prolonged crying spells for weeks at a time can cause emotional trauma as well as physiological changes to the brain. *But Mindell argues that these studies had nothing to do with sleep training - they were done on children who suffered from long crying jags in general. Therefore, she says, the findings don't apply to a few teary nights with the cry it out method.*_

I personally have not been able to stomach CIO with DD#2 (that's why she's in bed with me half way through every night)
Before I knew better I did a modified CIO with DD#1 (at 10 mos old) and she only cried the first night for 10 minutes, fussed the next 2 nights, and then actually ASKED to go to sleep every night after that! She is a RARE kid, maybe that's the kind of babies they did the study on????

That would never work with DD2.


----------



## granolalight (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Patrice#1* 
This does not even make common sense!...If I let a baby cry and cry, then they will be more secure? That is totally crazy!

That's what I thought when I read it this morning. What the...?







:


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

How TF are they devining "secure attachement" and "just fine"?

Now, if some study showed that not all babies are damaged by CIO I'd beleive it- some babies can handle this level of neglect and still be "ok" but others can't, and it still isnt' good for them. But how on earth can they say it's "better"?


----------



## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

There are moms with babies in the library storytime that I go to that have told me that when their children are teething, or sick, or when they go on a trip, they have let their children cry for hours on end. Moms have said to me that "after a bit you don't even hear them... and you can always turn up the TV."










It makes me think that they had kids as fashion accessories, KWIM?

I do not understand what kind of logic could possibly have gone into a study that says that letting your child CIO will make them more secure.


----------



## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

NAK

The researchers are probably using an inaccurate definition of secure.

A 12-15mo who acts independent, no stranger or separation anxiety in new situations, especially when mom is not around is not the meaning of secure. A secure child at that age is more likely to cling to mom/dad and be upset if they are left in a strange place, and want connection with mom/dad when they return.

So it really could be how "secure" is defined that brings such bizarre results to their study.

A longitudinal study would be more telling...


----------



## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

Um no. I did let DS CIO back before I knew better. He is 4.5 now. I think we did it 2-3 times. I can tell you that the day after - each time we did it - he was different. He just seemed... sad.







: I did it again because after all thats what I was told to do. Had I followed my instincts I would NEVER have done it again. By the time DD came along I was a lot more knowledgeable and followed my instincts and never let her CIO. She is very secure, attached, yet independant. No issues there. DS on the other hand is super clingy. I am not saying that 3 nights of CIO made him like that, but that certainly did not help I am sure.


----------



## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:

the studies revealed that infants who went through sleep training were more secure and predictable, and cried and fussed less, than those who weren't trained.
So a quiet baby= a happy baby? Maybe those poor little babies staring blankly at their mobiles are actually emotionally beaten down, knowing NO ONE is ever going to come in and soothe them no matter how hard they cry. Maybe they have lost their ability to connect with their mother on a core level, which includes fussing and crying, as a vital method of communication. Am I supposed to believe a baby is "happier" because he has his pie-hole plugged with a dummy and he's lying motionless and silent in a cage away from his parents? Maybe the executor of these "studies" has a different definition of happiness than I do.

Sorry, CIO gets me fired up.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I'd LIKE to believe noone is dumb enough to believe this, alas...


----------



## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

It makes me so sad that milllions of mothers neglect their babies because a "professional" told them it was ok.


----------



## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

OMG...I am just sick to my stomach







. How can ANYONE think that this is OK??? Do they really have no common sense???


----------



## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

The big problem I saw with the article was not just that they were presenting regimented cry it out method as creating more attached children... but that they presented this within the context of a flawed (incomplete) study.

Now, they did mention this, but too briefly. The big problem was that the study DID NOT include children who co-slept.

So it may be true that children whose parents adhere to a strict regimen of cry-it-out, and are CONSISTANT with that response (or lack thereof as the case may be), are more attached & secure than children whose parents respond INCONSISTANTLY - maybe sometimes going to their kids, sometimes picking them up, sometimes not showing up at all. But they just didn't present it well within that context.

They needed to say, clearly, that if you're going to sleep train your child, you need to do it consistantly, or not at all, lest your child become insecure.

AND they needed to say, even MORE clearly, that co-sleeping was the MOST preferable for attachment/security.

But, because co-sleeping is not popular, and cry-it-out IS, the article was tailored to making parents feel better about their decisions. It's just like all the articles in Parenting Magazine tailored to make Moms who choose not to breastfeed feel okay about their choice. It's about marketing to your demographic, not about children... it's really sad.


----------



## Attached2Elijah (Jun 27, 2004)

I don't know how a mother can let her child cry so hard and just "give up" for lack of response... Isn't that the first lesson in not going after you want? Teaching a child that no matter how hard you fight, you'll never get what your heart desires? Maybe that's why we have so many freeloaders on Dr Phil? LOL!

Seriously though I can't understand how a mother can do that to her child and justify that it's okay because a Dr said it was. My babies crying just seems SO incredibly wrong. I don't care if G*d himself told me that it was the right thing to do, if it felt wrong to me, I wouldn't do it, PERIOD.

My daughter HATES co-sleeping... I've tried SOOOOO many times with her. I co-slept with my son up until 2 months ago when he decided he wanted more room so now his bed is next to ours... and I put her in her crib because it's what she wants. I would still NEVER EVER EVER let her cry herself to sleep. Yes I have to get up a million times+ a night to get her out of her crib and nurse her but it's bad enough to see her in that crib all by herself (even though she prefers it that way) I can't imagine her in there all alone crying so hard she made herself sick.... Oh that just hurts my heart even thinking about it. I can not BELIEVE people are going to follow this... *sigh*


----------



## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

I don't care how many studies say it is fine; I know what is best for my babies. I refuse to treat a child with less dignity & compassion than an adult.


----------



## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Just reiterating what several others have said. CIO usually doesn't just take a few nights. It is an ongoing struggle. Every time something changes in the baby's life, you have to do it all over again. Not that we ever did this!! We tried with my DS but he's a persistent little bugger and cried for HOURS, not that "15 minutes" they always tell you about. Thank G-d he did, so i came to my senses and brought him back in our bed. But we have relatives that CIO and it definitely doesnt stop after a few nights from what i have seen.

v

ps that article was dumb!


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
I've only known 3 people who CIO, but those babies didn't cry for just a few nights. All 3 cry themselves to sleep every single night. Most of the time they sleep through, but if they wake, they cry themselves back to sleep. When they're teething, they cry through the night. When they have separation anxiety, they cry. When they're sick, they cry. The parents I know who use CIO complain about how often they have to 'retrain' their babies.


There is a mother on another site I'm on who really thinks CIO is THE thing. She said the first time they did it the baby ONLY cried for 1 hour and 45 min.







The baby woke up a couple of times and cried for ONLY 30 min. each time. When mom went in to get her the next morning she said she felt better about the whole thing because the baby gave her the biggest smile!
Well duh!







What do you expect? Untill that moment that poor baby thought everybody had disappeared off the face of the earth! Then mom proudly proclaimed she never even turns the baby monitor on anymore!

It made me very sad for that poor sweet baby!







:


----------



## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinker* 
There is a mother on another site I'm on who really thinks CIO is THE thing. She said the first time they did it the baby ONLY cried for 1 hour and 45 min.







The baby woke up a couple of times and cried for ONLY 30 min. each time. When mom went in to get her the next morning she said she felt better about the whole thing because the baby gave her the biggest smile!
Well duh!







What do you expect? Untill that moment that poor baby thought everybody had disappeared off the face of the earth! Then mom proudly proclaimed she never even turns the baby monitor on anymore!

It made me very sad for that poor sweet baby!







:
















: How awful. I can't do mainstream boards anymore or I just get too upset over the crap they do to their poor babies.


----------



## J2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinker* 
There is a mother on another site I'm on who really thinks CIO is THE thing. She said the first time they did it the baby ONLY cried for 1 hour and 45 min.







The baby woke up a couple of times and cried for ONLY 30 min. each time. When mom went in to get her the next morning she said she felt better about the whole thing because the baby gave her the biggest smile!
Well duh!







What do you expect? Untill that moment that poor baby thought everybody had disappeared off the face of the earth! Then mom proudly proclaimed she never even turns the baby monitor on anymore!

It made me very sad for that poor sweet baby!







:

That is just so dangerous. *sigh* Baby could be seriously ill or hurt and to not only not respond to the baby, but not even turn the monitor on and just completely ignore babe is right out negligent.

I also know people that do CIO but it just doesn't work. I knew of a little boy just under 2yrs old who would cry for over an hour EVERY SINGLE NIGHT for MONTHS. So from about a year old to almost 2 years old every single night he cried for a long time. Complete bawling. It is very very sad.


----------



## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:

How awful. I can't do mainstream boards anymore or I just get too upset over the crap they do to their poor babies.










Imo, CIO is a lifestyle not something that happens a few nights and then "poof" baby learns how to put himself to sleep every night


----------



## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Acta Paediatr. 2004 Jan;93(1):126-34.

Treatment of sleep problems in families with young children: effects of treatment on family well-being.

Eckerberg B.

Department of Paediatrics, Falun Hospital, Falun, Sweden. [email protected]

AIM: To evaluate a standardized sleep programme that is a two-step variation of graduated extinction, where the child is first taught to fall asleep by him/herself at bedtime (first intervention) and two weeks later also after night awakenings (second intervention). As it has been claimed that extinction procedures may be harmful to the child, this study documents both night- and daytime behaviour before and after interventions. METHOD: The study included a total of 95 families, with children from 4 to 45 mo of age exhibiting frequent signalled awakening episodes during the night. Sleep diaries, visual analogue scales (VAS) on daytime behaviour and the Flint Infant Security scale, completed by parents, were used as instruments. Parents also completed VAS scales and the Swedish Parenthood Stress Questionnaire scales on their own well-being. RESULTS: All families carried out the interventions. Parents reported significant improvements in sleep quality, daytime behaviour and family well-being as early as two weeks after the first intervention. Before intervention, the sleep-disturbed children were rated as more insecure than a matched comparison group with unknown sleep behaviour. This difference was eliminated after the interventions. The more anxious the children were rated before intervention, the more they tended to benefit from it. CONCLUSION: If parents experience young children's night awakenings as a problem, teaching the children to fall asleep by themselves usually solves this problem quickly. According to parental ratings, family well-being and negative daytime behaviour are also improved.

J Pediatr Psychol. 1992 Aug;17(4):467-75.

Behavior characteristics and security in sleep-disturbed infants treated with extinction.

France KG.

Department of Psychology, University of Canterbury, New Zealand.

Measured and compared the behavior characteristics and security scores of 35 infants (6-24 months) treated with extinction for sleep disturbance with those of 13 untreated and 15 normal sleep controls. There was no evidence of detrimental effects on the treated infants whose security, emotionality/tension, and likeability scores improved. The findings are congruent with those from a previous study with preschoolers and have important implications for the prevention of later behavior problems in sleep-disturbed children.


----------



## annarborite (Sep 7, 2006)

Thanks, Shakti. I always like to see the studies themselves before they are reduced to the smallest, most EXCITING! soundbite by the media.

I do take offense at the idea that my children aren't secure because they didn't cling to me as toddlers/preschoolers. Yes, one is a bit shyer than the other and does hang back and watch a situation before deciding whether to join in, but both were/are independent and curious and I'd strongly claim attached. They seem to see me more as a secure base to return to and move off again, getting a bit of reassurance and then going on to Do Big Things. Sometimes I am dragged along to do big things (like play pretend this morning -- "I'll be the noodles and you be a vegetable!" Great, how do I act like a vegetable?), too.


----------



## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Sounds like firmly attached children to me!


----------



## annarborite (Sep 7, 2006)

Phew! The Internet doesn't think I'm a bad mother!









I just looked at the dates on those studies and they are pretty old. Do you know why this has suddenly become a hot topic in the MSM?


----------



## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:

Sleep diaries, visual analogue scales (VAS) on daytime behaviour and the Flint Infant Security scale, completed by parents, were used as instruments. Parents also completed VAS scales and the Swedish Parenthood Stress Questionnaire scales on their own well-being. RESULTS: All families carried out the interventions. Parents reported significant improvements in sleep quality, daytime behaviour and family well-being as early as two weeks after the first intervention.

If I was doing something that I knew was harmful to my child for my OWN benefit, I would be more apt to report back that it wasnt hurting my child at all, ykim? The parents are the ones who are evaluating the progress! How biased is that?


----------



## climbermom (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eldadeedlit* 
Just reiterating what several others have said. CIO usually doesn't just take a few nights. It is an ongoing struggle. Every time something changes in the baby's life, you have to do it all over again. Not that we ever did this!! We tried with my DS but he's a persistent little bugger and cried for HOURS, not that "15 minutes" they always tell you about. Thank G-d he did, so i came to my senses and brought him back in our bed.

Same here, more or less.

The thing that really gets me about CIO, and in particular the type where you don't even check on the child, is that ignoring an older child's cries for extended periods of time would certainly be considered neglect, if not abuse. Why is it different for a baby? I've heard of babies crying until they throw up. If a parent has the monitor turned off and the TV up so they can't hear the baby, how will they even know? And yet if a 5 year old is left lying in his/her own vomit I bet people would have a pretty big problem with it.


----------



## annarborite (Sep 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtosimon* 
If I was doing something that I knew was harmful to my child for my OWN benefit, I would be more apt to report back that it wasnt hurting my child at all, ykim?

Maybe I'm all rainbows and unicorns, but I believe that in general, most parents want what is best for their kids. I'm betting the people who try CIO think it is the best way to finally get everyone in the house a good night's sleep and don't think they are harming their child (for one thing) and that it is also to the child's benefit to get good sleep (for another).

My youngest is a poor sleeper. He goes down happily enough, but wakes several times in the night. When he was younger he would cry, because he seemed really angry to be awake, and we'd deal with it, but the sleep deprivation really got old. We never did CIO with him because we were opposed in general, and also it seemed like it doesn't address our problem. But you know what? His dad is a terrible sleeper, too, who wakes up several times in the night, maybe goes to get a snack or listen to the radio. Once our son got older he was better able to go back to sleep without waking the entire household. I have to say, he is a much more agreeable child since then, and has more resources to deal with little setbacks.


----------



## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

"fairly certain"







:


----------



## thebee321 (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tinker* 
There is a mother on another site I'm on who really thinks CIO is THE thing. She said the first time they did it the baby ONLY cried for 1 hour and 45 min.







The baby woke up a couple of times and cried for ONLY 30 min. each time. When mom went in to get her the next morning she said she felt better about the whole thing because the baby gave her the biggest smile!
Well duh!







What do you expect? Untill that moment that poor baby thought everybody had disappeared off the face of the earth! Then mom proudly proclaimed she never even turns the baby monitor on anymore!

It made me very sad for that poor sweet baby!







:


Yeah, when the CIO moms talk about shutting the doors and turning off the monitors, I am just stunned. I cannot imagine how people can sleep soundly not having any clue if there baby is OK. DS threw up last night and I think I knew it before it hit the sheets! Just the way I want it (wellm, without the puke would be better, but YKWIM!)


----------



## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

The thing that really gets me about CIO, and in particular the type where you don't even check on the child
I don't think I've ever heard of this as a "type" iykwim. I'm sure there are people who hear about CIO and think they know what it means, but neither Ferber nor any other sleep-training advocate that I have EVER read or heard about recommends this as the way to go.


----------



## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thebee321* 
Yeah, when the CIO moms talk about shutting the doors and turning off the monitors, I am just stunned. I cannot imagine how people can sleep soundly not having any clue if there baby is OK. DS threw up last night and I think I knew it before it hit the sheets! Just the way I want it (wellm, without the puke would be better, but YKWIM!)

That was my very first thought when I read her story. What if the baby gets sick or hurt? And she was so proud of her "success" I wanted to shake her till her eyeballs rattled! So frustrating!







:


----------



## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
I don't think I've ever heard of this as a "type" iykwim. I'm sure there are people who hear about CIO and think they know what it means, but neither Ferber nor any other sleep-training advocate that I have EVER read or heard about recommends this as the way to go.


healthy sleep habits happy child or whatever advocates this method. that was what was recommended to us when we tried it.

veronica


----------



## AlbertaJes (May 11, 2006)

A mother on a mainstream board told me that CIO is not traumatic because "he falls asleep in cute positions."







: Seriously? Poor baby had to CIO every time he went to sleep for 7 months at that point. He probably still does.


----------



## cheygirl (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlbertaJes* 
A mother on a mainstream board told me that CIO is not traumatic because "he falls asleep in cute positions."

ugh....yeah, no doubt he was in 'cute positions' because that's where he was when he passed out from exhaustion







.

I remember so clearly when my mother forced my 8 mo sister to CIO. After hours of crying she went suddenly silent. My mom asked me to go in and check on her - we both figured she'd fallen asleep. I found my sister sitting in her crib in the dark, eyes wide open, in a stunned silence. She looked up at me with this expression of blank desolation that I still remember 25 years later. I don't ever want to see that look in my own daughter's eyes.

(incidentally, my mother now regrets what she did. "We didn't know, back in those day," she said, "they told us we had to do it".)


----------



## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cheygirl* 
.

(incidentally, my mother now regrets what she did. "We didn't know, back in those day," she said, "they told us we had to do it".)

That's interesting. My mother did it with all of us too... and she's never said she regrets it at all. In fact, she encouraged me over, and over, to let DD CIO when she was an infant. It was really tough to resist that pressure. She thinks it makes kids BETTER sleepers, doesn't lead to sleep disorders (which incidentally, all of my sisters, and myself have), etc. Weirdly enough my mom is a big supporter of breastfeeding... just thinks babies need to sleep by themselves, and put themselves to sleep.

What a screwed up generation.


----------



## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

healthy sleep habits happy child
Huh. I think I've heard of that one, but never read it. Whose it by?


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
Huh. I think I've heard of that one, but never read it. Whose it by?

Marc Weissbluth. I found his methods disturbing. It's also the one that the Babycenter readers voted the most helpful.







:


----------

