# Friend's 4yo very violent *graphic & disturbing*



## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

I seriously don't know what to do. My friend is a single mother and very lenient with her son. He seems to have no sympathy or feelings about hurting anyone or anything. I have seen him have a smug look every time I've witnessed him do anything also (which is the most disgusting part, IMO). He killed a rabbit and a cat at 3yo and is now 4 1/2 and killed another cat. Last week he threatened to kill my dog because HE tripped over her rump. He has also strangled my dog with various ropes and strings before. I've tried to explain why that's not acceptable, but it obviously doesn't work and there's only so much I can do seeing him seldom.

He has jumped up and down on my child's head and scarred his face another time by scratching him, and sat on another son's back pinning him face down on a tile floor and smashed his head into the tiles. Another time threw a brick and cut my son's forehead down to his skull.









After the last cat died I told her he needed counseling. She made excuses for him as usual saying it's "boy stuff" and he'll outgrow it. All of these animals that have died have been "defective." Her uncle said a 4 1/2 year old isn't capable of knowing the results of his actions.







: Previously the boy had thrown the cat against a wall, locked it in small toy cages and pots, squeezed it when angry, tried drowning it before in a cage in the bath tub, and when it finally died my friend found it in the tub with water. She said it drowned itself since it liked sleeping in the tub and must not have known there was water in there and had not jumped out because it was sick since she saw it peed blood the night before.







: I had told her she needed to give the cat away after hearing about the previous things before it died. She refused.

After the cat died, she said she would never get another animal so I didn't push it about him needing counseling. She now has another cat.







: What should I do?









***moderator edit - title description changed***


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

This kid has obvious issues. This is not normal 'boy stuff' If he is killing animals at this age what will he move on to? Keep your kids as far away from him as possible. I wouldn't let mine play supervised with someone like this. Ever.

look at this website this is what comes to mind immediately

www.radkid.org


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

This child is a danger to other children, and he obviously needs a lot of help. If his mother isn't willing to get help for him, I might consider a call to CPS.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

This is definitely a good reason to call cps. THe mother doesn't want to get her child the help he needs. There needs to be some intervention


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

If the mother won't seek help for the child, I'd do it for her by way of an anonymous call to the authorities. Flame me if you want, but this level of cruelty at this age has nothing but trouble written all over it.

The very least I would do is cut off all contact between this child and my home, kids, pets, etc. A bright line needs to be drawn to protect your family and pets.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Trust your instincts -- keep your children away from this kid. His behavior is not normal "boy stuff" and it's unlikely he will outgrow it. It's not about his mother being lenient, he needs professional help. Immediately. Your friend is not doing him any favors by explaining away the behavior.

What you describe is a lack of empathy to an extreme degree -- it's called sociopathy in mental health circles. Torturing and killing animals is an early sign of much worse to come. I don't know where you live, but an anonymous call to a child protective services agency wouldn't be out of order if his mother refuses to get him some help.

Best of luck.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Sounds like sociopathic behaviour to me. I don't know if early intervention helps in a case like that, but I certainly hope it can.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

I agree with the other posters... I have a 4 year old who is very active and not always gentle but never would he do things like what you explained... it is not "normal" boy stuff....

please, he really does need to see someone...


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## cool_mom (Mar 20, 2005)

Ummm...virtually every serial killer started out by killing or torturing animals before moving on to humans. Once a child has seen one animal die, he should understand the consequences. Furthermore, he should understand the sound of pain when the animal (or your child) cries out. That boy definitely needs counseling NOW. If the mother will not give it on her own, then call CPS. Otherwise, we might have another Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, etc. on our hands.

BTW: How much attention does that boy get from his parents? The only thing that can harm a child in the long run worse than abuse is neglect. Those are the true sociopaths who do not have any empathy.


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## 2Sweeties1Angel (Jan 30, 2006)

Eeek! I thought it was scary when I caught my son hitting the chickens with a stick (turns out he just likes to whack various things with sticks and didn't realize he was hurting them) but that is BEYOND scary. That child needs help and he needs it now. Kids like that can very easily grow up to be serial killers or mass murderers.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

This is very serious. If your friend cannot make the efforts to get her son help, then I would call CPS immediately. This child has the potential to turn into a serial killer or an otherwise very dangerous person, and at this point he needs intense therapy. Also, I would not let your son and her son at all, or let him into your house. Explain to your friend that this is for you, your family, and your pet's own protection. I'd stand my ground with her, absolutely. It may seem rude but this kid needs help, and now.


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
This child is a danger to other children, and he obviously needs a lot of help. If his mother isn't willing to get help for him, I might consider a call to CPS.

I agree!


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## EastonsMom (Oct 24, 2005)

Call CPS now!!!! That kind of behavour only worsens! Never allow anybody you love around him or his mom. If she sees nothing wrong with it she needs ever more help, she should know better! Where is the boys dad? Family?


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## elsasmommy (Mar 24, 2005)

You must not let this child play with your child anymore. It is doing serious physical and psychological harm to your child. I would never talk to this mother again, and I would probably report her to CPS. This is so, so bad for your child to be around. It's psychotic.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Yup. Sociopathic behavior. This child is crying out for help. I would also call CPS if she refuses to do anything about it.


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

I have considered calling CPS. I have never done so figuring I could find a way to help her out without CPS. She started voluntary Parenting Classes through CPS because she didn't know how to handle him not listening to her. While at these classes he would hurt other children and even started whaling on her physically and even the CPS worker told her to spank him! She refuses to spank him, but there isn't any other form of discipline either. He does something wrong, frantically repeates "Sorry, sorry, sorry" to her smiling and she threatens that next time he'll get a spanking (which never happens). That's it. Ever. Anyway, these classes did no good and she has since quit.

When he jumped up and down on my sons' head, he never showed any emotions about it besides smugness until his mother threatened to break his DVD when they got home. Then he started screaming and crying saying "Sorry, sorry mommy." Never sorry to my son, nor did she make him.







:

If I did call CPS, what would they do? Could I try anything with her first? I swore I would tell her to never bring him around the next time he hurt my kids, then he threatened to kill my dog and by the time she came to pick him up, I had chickened out.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma2girls*
look at this website this is what comes to mind immediately

www.radkid.org

I didn't know what it was called, but I have tried talking to her about this disorder. That's when she told me it was normal boys stuff and her uncle said he couldn't understand his actions. I completely disagree. He knows, you can see it on his face. He takes pleasure in hurting people.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cool_mom*
BTW: How much attention does that boy get from his parents? The only thing that can harm a child in the long run worse than abuse is neglect. Those are the true sociopaths who do not have any empathy.

She has him in day care all day which I normal don't agree with but I think this may be the only place he gets consistant punishments for anything he does (time outs). At home she sits him in front of the tv watching movies most of the time. They have a tiny apartment and he seems to destroy things (the things were "faulty" also) whenever he's not a zombie watching tv. She doesn't give him a bedtime either and wakes him before 6am for day care so he doesn't get much sleep.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I'd call CPS. They can force her to get counseling for him, or put him in foster care if she doesn't. In this case, it sounds like his issues may be too severe for her to handle, and he may be better off living elsewhere.


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Ok, so how should I tell her in a way she might reap some benefit that I don't want her child around mine anymore? Now remember I'm a coward and don't want to hurt her feelings, nor make her brush this all off thinking it's me with the problem and keep making excuses for her kid!







:

Ruthla, wow if they take him away she would flip out! She truly thinks she is a wonderful mother and people are jealous of how cute her little red-haired son is. Meanwhile I'm thinking people are not jealous those are actually looks of disgust by the way he's acting in public!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

There's probably nothing you can do to convince her that it's HER kid with the problem if she insists on buying her head in the sand. Just tell her that her DS frightens you and you don't want him around your family or your pets. If she wants to think you're being an overprotective bitch, let her think that.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Like I said, I don't know where you live, but hopefully CPS would invesitagate and require the child be in psychotherapy at the very least.

I want to very strongly emphasize that this is not an issue of discipline (or lack thereof) -- this is an issue of safety. It is illegal to torture and kill animals -- at any age -- and this boy's mother's inaction constitutes neglect.

If intervention does not take place immediately, he will be lost forever. Wouldn't you call for help if he were bleeding?


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
He has also strangled my dog
He has jumped up and down on my child's head
smashed his head into the tiles.
Another time threw a brick and cut my son's forehead down to his skull.









After the last cat died I told her he needed counseling.

that sounds like conduct disorder, and it can lead ( and it DOES lead) to serious anti-social behavior including the behavior known to those incarcerated for serial murders. no I am not being flipant. I am serious.
http://health.discovery.com/encyclop...le=2834&page=1
THere are many articles on the link between hurting animals and later hurting people, that is very serious. If it was ME, I would talk to couselors/teachers at school ( if they attend the same school) and let the parent know that they cannot turn their back on any illness the child has , including mental.

_Violent acts toward animals have long been recognized as indicators of a violent psychopathology that does not confine itself to animals. "Anyone who has accustomed himself to regard the life of any living creature as worthless is in danger of arriving also at the idea of worthless human lives," wrote humanitarian Albert Schweitzer. "Murderers...very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids," according to Robert K. Resler, who developed
profiles of serial killers for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Studies have now convinced sociologists, lawmakers, and the courts that acts of cruelty toward animals deserve our attention. They can be the first sign of a violent pathology that includes humans._


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## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

His behavior is extremely disturbing, and I agree with the other posters that something needs to be done. *NOW.*
Hopefully this can be stopped and reversed before he moves beyond killing/torturing animals and onto humans


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Here's another aspect that worries me. If I were to do both call and tell her I don't want her son around, she'll know I was the one to call and she would retaliate by calling them on me! She would and has on her child's father for calling on her about sexual acting out by this boy (which is one of the signs on the RAD link).

I know she would call on me in a heartbeat and as she said "do whatever it takes to get their kids taken away." Including _lie and exagerate_. I have a: homebirthed (one without birth cert), homeschooled, unvaxed, no checkups, 2 kids sleep in our room, two share a bed in another - family. They are also always dirty since they play outside all day and track it in no matter how much cleaning I do. I'm sure you all understand our lifestyle and why I'm hesitant.


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## Nickarolaberry (Dec 24, 2001)

This is terrible.

Call CPS right now. Today.

And, frankly, I also would not care one bit about hurting her feelings when telling her she can't bring him near you or yours. She clearly has no compunction about her son hurting yours. You have to be the mama bear here and protect yourself and your family. He cannot come within fifty feet of you, your kid, your premises, your dog, your sofa, nothing.

This is a really bad thing waiting to happen....


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
Ok, so how should I tell her in a way she might reap some benefit that I don't want her child around mine anymore? Now remember I'm a coward and don't want to hurt her feelings, nor make her brush this all off thinking it's me with the problem and keep making excuses for her kid!







:

Let's backtrack a minute here...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
He has *jumped up and down on my child's head* and *scarred his face another time by scratching him*, and sat on another son's back *pinning him face down on a tile floor and smashed his head into the tiles*. Another time *threw a brick and cut my son's forehead down to his skull*.

I don't envy your position, but put those images of your children bleeding, crying, screaming, whatever was happening in your head right now. Not a pretty picture, was it? Now go call you friend, write her a letter, email her, whatever and tell her that you will not sit back and let her son harm your children. Mama, those were not just little bruises- he's really hurting your kids! Please do not wait around until something more serious happens. This child needs help. He may be put in foster care for a while until his mom knows how to provide this help but if you do nothing- can you live guilt free if he seriously harms or kills another child?


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## mom2olivia (Apr 4, 2006)

I feel terrible for the position you are in, but you need to tell her that her son was a bit too rough for your liking during his last visit and to ensure the safety of your children and your dog you simply cannot allow him in your home.


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## frannyfresh (May 21, 2005)

Very disturbing situation. When I was growing uo there were quite a few boys like the one you discribe and they ended murdering people when they became teenagers. Stay away from this kid


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## jlutgendorf (Aug 15, 2006)

Please, if you don't call CPS, at least call Animal Control, The Humane Society, SPCA, whoever is incharge of animal welfare in your town and see if you can't at least get the cat taken in to custody so it's doesn't have live out the rest of it's sad, short life, tortured and abused.

See what you can do to get her family put on the blacklist of your shelters and rescues so she won't be allowed to adopt. (though it won't stop her from being able to answer "free to good home" ads).

Even that much may save the life of a helpless animal and start some sort of documentation about her sons behaviour. And even if she calls the same people on you, I doubt that your childrens dr.s records will warrant taking your dog away.

Sending you some (((vibes))) to help you with this difficult task.

~Julia


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

I'd call CPS.
This is serious.
This child will progress to hurting more and more people, and eventually to murder.
Unfortunately, there is likely very little that can be done, short of lifetime incarceration.
You must stop being this persons friend, and under no circumstances let your child near this child.
Think of it this way..if you knew a convicted rapist/murderer lived down the block, would you let your kid visit?
That's what this little kid is....just a few years down the road.
Protect your child.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

I don't know what CPS could do, since you can't PROVE that the boy killed the animals. Sounds like mom needs some help too, since she is living in so much denial. I don't know ANYBODY capable of ignoring the suffering that this boy caused to the animals before they died. That. Is. Scary. The fact that she is so dismissive about it is *SCARY*.

And now she get's another cat???







: Seriously, I don't know who is in more need of urgent help, the mom or the child!

In your shoes, I would run, not walk, away. I would. I would be afraid for my children and my animals. I have a LOT of animals, it wouldn't even be an option for me to allow a child with those issues into my home.

I kind of think, as challenging as it may be, you almost have an obligation to be straight up with her about what you are thinking. She needs to know. If she dismisses it, you know that there is no hope of salvaging the friendship, and the friendship seems too fraught with risk to continue. You can't endanger your own child by continuing to allow this other boy around him.

I feel for you mama. This is a very bad situation, very uncomfortable all around.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99*
I'd call CPS.
This is serious.
This child will progress to hurting more and more people, and eventually to murder.
Unfortunately, there is likely very little that can be done, short of lifetime incarceration.
You must stop being this persons friend, and under no circumstances let your child near this child.
Think of it this way..if you knew a convicted rapist/murderer lived down the block, would you let your kid visit?
That's what this little kid is....just a few years down the road.
Protect your child.


ITA. Totally.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

Hello momma!

I just had to respond here. I used to be a psychiatric nurse in the adolescent unit. The things you have described that this child has done, fall under the early signs of a sociopath. This child needs intervention!! I had a child in the unit who had tried to kill his mother with a knife...he was 3years old. You have NO IDEA what you are dealing with. I hope you decide to do something before it is too late and you regret it.

DO NOT LET HIM PLAY WITH YOUR CHILD. He can and will eventually seriously hurt your child.

I don't know the laws in your state. There is a law called The Baker Act, meaning certain individual have the authority to admit this child to a hospital without the mother's consent. I believe the people that can do this are a physician, police officer, and social worker.

If you are scared of getting involved you can make a anonymous call to the police. Just get this child some help!!


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

have you thought of printing stuff out to show her? Do you have a local PETA chapter? ASPCA chapter? You could tip them off and let them do the dirty work...
--------------------------------------
A study conducted by Northeastern University and the Massachusetts SPCA found that people who abuse animals are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against humans. The majority of inmates scheduled to be executed for murder at California's San Quentin penitentiary "practiced" their crimes on animals, according to the warden.
• As a child, serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy-ultimately convicted of two killings but suspected of murdering more than 40 women-witnessed his father's violence toward animals, and he himself subsequently tortured animals.

• Earl Kenneth Shriner, who raped and stabbed a 7-year-old boy, was known in his neighborhood for hanging cats and torturing dogs.
• David Berkowitz (a.k.a. "Son of Sam"), who pleaded guilty to 13 murder and attempted murder charges, shot a neighbor's Labrador retriever.
• Brenda Spencer, who opened fire at a California school, killing two children and injuring nine others, had repeatedly abused cats and dogs, often setting their tails on fire.
• Serial killer and cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer impaled the heads of dogs and cats on sticks.

ETA: many of these kids who abuse animals are also themselves abused


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## my4magpies (Mar 24, 2006)

Yikes! That sounds disturbing. I think I read something years ago about rapists/murderers started off by killing (and torturing) animals in their childhood. Sorry, I could be waaaaayyyyy off by saying this, but I'd get my kid counseling. As a mom, I'd be very concerned!


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Holy ******!!!

talk about a steriotype coming to life read the red headed remark...you know that horrid steriotype about redheaded children being of the devil or whatever, more often than not it's not the case, but in this one, it's true!!!

I understand you're hesitant to call CPS because you fear she's gonna retaliate against you in some way. If you LET THEM KNOW that she will possibly file a report against you in retaliation, they will DISMISS it when she does, put it on record she's good at filing false claims.

You need to get this kid out from under her....her denial will only cause some serious problems down the road, not just for her, but for the rest of society as well. We Do NOT want a serial killer on the loose...even a few years down the road.

Early intervention is the key..please get it for this child...give him some hope at having a decent childhood anyway..even if part of it is in a program (hospital) geared towards mentaly ill patients with sociopathic disorders..

The good of many comes before the wishes of one in this case...


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I couldn't bear to read anything else but the title (I am a HUGE sucker for animals and I get realllllllly disturbed) but I do know that when a child abuses/kill animals it is a sign they will be psychotic as an adult- like, serial killer psychotic- not just one of those "it's the parent's fault" scenarios- however it is possible the child is being abused by someone also. it shows a lack of empathy and guilt that is far beyond the range of normal and it s a huge, huge warning sign- very sad, hope the chlid gets help.


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## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

That's scary and totally sociopathic. I really feel bad for that little boy. I bet somewhere he is scared in there. I would look into how to find psychiatric help for him. I'm not a fan of CPS and don't know what they would do for this child except put him in foster care where he'd just have access to more animals and more children to hurt. He neds professional psyshicatric help and he needs to be watched. I hope this mom gets a clue before something serious happens. I would definately looki into having him committed. And I'd definatetly keep my kids away from him, with or without saying something to her first!







s to you and positive thoughts for that little boy and his mama.

Namaste, Tara


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

This child is hurting YOUR child! Why on earth are you still allowing that kid near your child? You owe it to your children to protect them, which you are miserably failing by allowing them to be injured by this child! Even if you do not call CPS, you need to step up to the plate and start protecting your own babies, not worrying about someone else's feelings.







:


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

This is a classic case of the mother playing the "not my kid" card.
MY kid didn't kill the cats-they were "defective. MY kid didn't break the lamp-it was defective.
You'd think she would question why SHE owns/has so many defective items??
Does she just think she has bad luck?

OP: just wondering-does the boy wet the bed that you know of?
Does he show any unusual interest in lighters, matches?
Does the mother smoke?

The ":serial killer" triad--

Some serial killers display one or more of what are known as the "MacDonald Triad" of warning signs in childhood. These are:

*Fire starting*, invariably just for the thrill of destroying things.
*Cruelty to animals* (related to "zoosadism"). Many children may be cruel to animals, such as pulling the legs off spiders, but future serial killers often kill larger animals, like dogs and cats, and frequently for their solitary enjoyment rather than to impress peers.
*Bedwetting* beyond the age when children normally grow out of such behavior.

PS-I have a psychology degree-and I agree-this child needs help before he hospitalizes a child OR kills another animal.
He's 3, right?

I would not deal with the mother-she will turn on you-and that's a kind of crazy you just don't need.

Call CPS AND the SPCA.
And as Pandora suggested-explain that she has a history of false accusations.
Tell them that you fully expect her to file a claim against you in retaliation. If it is on file-it's your protection.

And for the love and all that is precious-don't let that child anywhere your kids. Period. FULL STOP! DONE!
Your kids just can't defend themselves against a kid like that.
(And I'm very sorry that you are in this position. I'm really feeling for you.
I'll bet your heart is racing while reading all these posts.-and KNOWING what you need to do)
HUGS!!


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## PeacefulSeams (Apr 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I'd call CPS. They can force her to get counseling for him, or put him in foster care if she doesn't. In this case, it sounds like his issues may be too severe for her to handle, and he may be better off living elsewhere.

I agree 100%. He need help NOW. Hurting animals is just the beginning for worse things to come....


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Not saying that he will grow up to be a killer. But the evidence does show that children who show this behavior this early are at a very high risk of having major issues as adult. Like Jeffery D. It is something that need serious attenion NOW to help him deal with his feelings. I am the last person to tell someone to get cps involved du in this case I would be on the phone to them so fast it would make your head spin.

Do a search on the net there are many studies that back up what I just said. And not every case of a child hurting a animal or other person is a sign they will grow up to do horrible things but it is a red flag.


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MPJJJ*
This child is hurting YOUR child! Why on earth are you still allowing that kid near your child? You owe it to your children to protect them, which you are miserably failing by allowing them to be injured by this child! Even if you do not call CPS, you need to step up to the plate and start protecting your own babies, not worrying about someone else's feelings.







:









I know. My sons really like him despite this and I know, I have to keep him from them even if they won't be happy. They don't know about the animals except when he threatened our dog in front of them and my oldest got very mad at him.

I have brought up my issues about her son to her many times and she kept "working on it". I'm just done waiting for her to try to fix him and done thinking I could somehow help her do it.









Gosh, I forgot to tell you all what she said about talking with him after the last cat died. I told her she needed to explain things (this was after she swore he wasn't capable of understanding what he did) so that he would be clear on what he caused and would hopefully show some remorse. She said *no cat was worth harming her sons' psychy by knowing he killed something!*







This means, I guess, she did the same with the previous animals. We got into a huge argument where I was "telling her how to raise her son" and I'm not a perfect parent either.

I am not completely silent about things, don't get me wrong. I have asked her to give the current cat away every time I've talked with her saying that's just f###ed up of her to get another cat knowing darn well what will happen to it! In fact, she didn't tell me about the cat for a while and slipped by complaining her son was "torturing" the cat again. (She used the word sarcasticly, but you know that's exactly what he was doing.) She also lied to me telling me for months how well he treated the last cat (since I complained when she got that one knowing what he did a year ago to the rabbit...she just slipped about the first cat and I am not certain what he did to it just that it was "defective" also.) At first I thought maybe a year of maturing he was nicer and had learned how to treat animals, but then she started slipping about each of the other things I told you all in my first message that he did to the last cat.

I think I'll call CPS and ask their policy on animal abusing children and how they would treat her backlashing against me. Maybe I can ask what they would make him and her do and then tell her what they said and that I hadn't _yet_ turned her in. Maybe she would follow the advice (surely counseling at least) before it has to go further. She does need a wake up call. The more I think of all this at the same time, the more guilty I am for not having done anything yet.







I've known her for a decade now and still wish there was a way to help her without having her son taken away.

Another thing I just remembered: He loves watching Animal Planet and knows everything about animals, especially reptiles. She talks about how much he's into animals and will probably grow up to be a Veterinarian!


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## MountainLaurel (Dec 17, 2005)

Erm, yeah. Definitely need some help, even if his mother isn't willing to get it. Killing animals today, killing people tomorrow.


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama*
does the boy wet the bed that you know of?

Yes he does, but is still only 4 1/2 yo. BUT here's the thing...he has literally peed on his mother's head while she slept!!









Wow, this is getting weirder and weirder as I type this all out like a list! You all are making me remember things that I never put together like this before.


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

Well this is what I had to do so that I could look my husband in the eye and say I wasn't the one who called CPS on his son. I called my kids' doctor and a nurse friend I had and told them the situation. They then called CPS for me. I understand that you are worried about what she may do but this kid needs help and she won't provide it. They are going to be looking at her not you. She is acting just like my husband did dismissing everything that was going on as just 'bad boy stuff'. She needs to wake up and realize her kid is seriously messed up. Tell them that she may try to take this out on you by saying things that aren't true. This child needs to get into intensive therapy NOW! RAD is nothing to play with. You can't wait it out hoping the kid will out grow it. They won't! It only gets worse. Unless immediate steps are taken in the right direction. He needs to be placed with people who know how to deal with disorder. Unfortunately not too many do. The more you say about this kid the more I am convinced this is what he has.
Protect your kids and everyone elses by getting this to the attention of CPS. It isn't just him, or your kids that are at risk but EVERYONES.

You can PM me if you would like.

Andrea


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

He has 2 of the 3 behaviors frequently demonstrated by killers.
(I'm assuming there is no problem with fires)
You can give her all the help and chances to help her son you want.
But that doesn't mean she is willing OR capable of helping him.
Quite frankly (and I don't say this lightly) he may well be better off away from her for a time.
She may be very lax until she hits her limit--then explodes in rage. Abuse is a common them with children who exhibit such problems.

And alerting her to your inquirery to CPS is looking for bad news IMO.
She's in WAAAY over her head with this kid and telling her what MIGHT happen isn't going to light the fire under her.
If killing animals and beating the crap out of her friend's kids doesn't do it, what will?

This is screaming for outside intervention.
You are in a difficult yet necessary role of being the conduit.


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

Don't be concerned about what you could have done. Think only of what you can do now. There should be no 'maybe's with this. Call CPS call the animal control people DO NOT tell her what you are doing! Keep your kids away from him at all costs. She will not wake up she is in denial my husband, parts of my family, the husbands sons mother, my husbands family who have custody of his son, AND the therapists that were involved in his care are still in denial about the severity of DH's son's condition. After two years they still say 'oh its not that bad' He needs to be with people who know how to handle and how to help. His mother is not one of those people!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma2girls*
Well this is what I had to do so that I could look my husband in the eye and say I wasn't the one who called CPS on his son. I called my kids' doctor and a nurse friend I had and told them the situation. They then called CPS for me.

You said he's in daycare? I vaguely remember learning during training that daycares are required to call CPS if they find out about something like that. Does anyone know if that sounds accurate?

Poor kid. His mom sounds like a borderline sociopath herself.

~Nay


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## momma2girls (May 6, 2005)

Yes they should!


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## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

What should you do? Keep your child and pets far away... Distance from the family and hope to god that they get help. *shrug*


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin*
You said he's in daycare? I vaguely remember learning during training that daycares are required to call CPS if they find out about something like that. Does anyone know if that sounds accurate?

Poor kid. His mom sounds like a borderline sociopath herself.

~Nay

He literally just switched to being watched my his uncle's wife TODAY! What luck.







This woman also has a 12 month old daughter which is really why I have been thinking so much about him lately. I truly fear for her but of course the uncle wouldn't believe me if I told him how this boy really is. He doesn't see him much...until now. I hate for him to have to learn the hard way with his daughter being hurt. I have two 16 month olds this boy has never hurt, but you never know when that little girl is the only one available to feel his wrath.

Ok, I think I'll call tomorrow. If not, I'll read this entire thread over and get the nerve up again, then call.







<-The closest to a Highly Stressed Out smilie I could find. What if they don't do anything? What if she convinces them she's the mother of the year again? What if there is no proof and they do nothing? Then she calls on me and my family is dragged through hell?! The last SW told her they have to investigate every alligation even if they know it's in retaliation.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

http://www.all-creatures.org/sof/animalabuse.html

Quote:

Sadly, many of these criminals' childhood violence went unexamined-until it was directed toward humans. As anthropologist Margaret Mead noted, "One of the most dangerous things that can happen to a child is to kill or torture an animal and get away with it."
your friend's behaviour is horribly shocking to me. the fact she makes these excuses is insuring that her child grows up with serious issues. knowing CPS god knows if they'll do anything at all. I dont even know what to advise but to give it a shot. I do know I'd keep myself and my kids FAR from these people.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

If they investigate, so what?

Set up a bedroom for the kids and make it look like it's been slept in/used.

no big deal.

As long as your house doesn't have EXTREME Filth, a lived in house is no concern.

Extreme filth = Rotting food everywhere, maggots on dishes, animal and human waste everywhere...stuff like that

A bit of dirt here and there they dont care about. Nor do they care about toys being tossed around

If your big concern is the co-sleeping, just make it look like you dont. Fairly easy to fake. That way if she DOES call in retaliation against you, you have your nose clean.










And the Vax's, Cite religious exemption.

They CANNOT TOUCH Religion









Homebirthing: Well guess what, "Oops! It happened too fast for me to get to the hospital"

No Birth Cert "Umm..I havn't gotten around to it yet..that'll be on my next to do list...it's just SO Hectic to get to the office with so many little ones..."


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Please call CPS immediately- explain to them that you think she might try to get back at you by calling them on you (that way they will probably ignore whatever she says, she probably won't have much credibility given that she is ignoring very serious behavior in her son). That little baby girl's life might be in your hands- if they have no idea what he is capable of they might leave her alone with him and he really could kill her.
CPS most likely won't take him out of the home if the mother agrees to counseling and finally realizes he needs help.
What he is doing is in no way normal- it is the sort of thing we learned about in my Abnormal Psychology course- you will be doing him a big favor by getting him help now.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
Ok, I think I'll call tomorrow. If not, I'll read this entire thread over and get the nerve up again, then call.







<-The closest to a Highly Stressed Out smilie I could find. What if they don't do anything? What if she convinces them she's the mother of the year again? What if there is no proof and they do nothing? Then she calls on me and my family is dragged through hell?! The last SW told her they have to investigate every alligation even if they know it's in retaliation.

Please do. Yes, you may drag your family through the muck too. BUT... think what might happen if you didn't call, and this child jumps on that 12 month old's head and causes her major brain damage? (Personally, I'd call the uncle too and say "you know, has done these things to my kids, please don't leave your daughter alone with him. She's too little to protect herself.")

Before you call, make a list of the things that concern you (cruelty to animals, destroying objects, peeing on his mother's head, injuring your children, -- go through your post here and the other things - and the truth, that it's not until recently that you've put these things together and have become majorly concerned.

Then tell them that you are concerned because she might retaliate against you. Ask flat out "what can I do to minimize the trauma to my family?" Get that on record. And just because they have to 'investigate' doesn't mean that they have to do more than come to your house once.

And for the love of Mike KEEP THAT CHILD OUT OF YOUR HOUSE. Be suspiciously busy for the next month with "back to school" (hey, you're homeschooling, do a lot of 'field trips' at the times when she might come over), and then call a halt to it. "I am scared of your son. I am scared about what he might do to my children. I am sorry, but we cannot see you any more." Tell your kids the truth "XX needs some help controling his temper and learning not to hurt people and animals. Until he learns that, I don't think it's safe for you to play. I know you like him, but my first job is to keep you safe."

Keep repeating that to yourself -- your first job is to keep your kids safe. And I hope, for the community's greater good, that you have the courage to call CPS.


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

I don't understand why you're so reluctant to "hurt her feelings." This is your family that is at risk, your animals that are being threatened. She needs to be told in no uncertain terms that she and her son are NOT welcome in your house or on your property again. Why is this even an issue for you????

With CPS, don't tell her you called and they said blah blah blah. Then if you do turn her in, she'll know for sure it was you.







: Just call anonymously and turn her in. Period. If she tries to turn you in, it will be easy for CPS to see that she has a history of retaliation in these situations.

I'm sorry to say it this way but get a back bone and stand up for your family.

Jenn


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

You can call CPS anonymously. Do that. Please call the SPCA or some organization that can remove that new cat from the household as well. (I can't stand the thought of that animal being set up for torture and death.)


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabrog*
I don't understand why you're so reluctant to "hurt her feelings." This is your family that is at risk, your animals that are being threatened. She needs to be told in no uncertain terms that she and her son are NOT welcome in your house or on your property again. Why is this even an issue for you????

With CPS, don't tell her you called and they said blah blah blah. Then if you do turn her in, she'll know for sure it was you.







: Just call anonymously and turn her in. Period. If she tries to turn you in, it will be easy for CPS to see that she has a history of retaliation in these situations.

I'm sorry to say it this way but get a back bone and stand up for your family.

Jenn

Exactly. I thought I might get flamed for being a little harsh, but in this case it seems necessary. Honey, I know how it feels to be nonconfrontational, I am myself. I HATE fighting with people, and feeling as though they are mad at me. But in this case, I would go to the ends of the earth to protect my children from what very clearly appears to be a child sociopath. In fact, my DH and I would be moving, and not leaving a forwarding address. This is serious. You may not realize it, but you and your children are at risk.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

: waiting to hear who you reported your observations to....
and please know that even if nothing comes of it, you have to relieve yourself of the burden of your concerns! you can't control what others do about it sadly.


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
You can call CPS anonymously. Do that. Please call the SPCA or some organization that can remove that new cat from the household as well. (I can't stand the thought of that animal being set up for torture and death.)









Ditto. IME CPS is fairly used to retaliatory reports against the one originally reporting abuse or neglect (not that it's any less scary or uncomfortable to think of your family being the subject of investigation, particularly when you are leading a less-than-conventional life







).

Animal Protection should be able to remove the cat following an investigation (I hope) - I can't stop thinking about that poor helpless cat being a prisoner in its home.









I agree with all the other posters who said act, call now, and stop all contact with your children and pets.

Sorry you are faced with this situation, mama. How horrible! Please do update us when you can.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Update??








:


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

wow that's awful!! I hope something is done.

When I was a summer camp counselor at the YMCA, there was a family of three kids. Two boys and a girl. They were really dysfunctional and gave off bad vibes. The boy was angry and acted out a lot. He used to pee on the front lawn of the Y just for kicks even though it got him in trouble (he was like 8). His sister was scary. She was very manipulative and stoic. She was about 12. Once the boy was acting really exceptionally angry and I took him aside and asked him if he was having a bad day or sad about something. He said his sister choked his pet bunny to death. She squeezed his neck until he died. I could not believe it. He said she did it on purpose because she was mad at him. I asked if the mom did anything and he said no. He was missing his bunny.







About a week later he was expelled from the program because he found an old scoreboard that was taken down so a new one could be installed. It had thousands of small lightbulbs in it. He took some of them and threw them in the men's showers and several people cut their feet. I always wonder what happened to him. I don't think he was disturbed, he was just angry. His sister was disturbed and his monther was in total denial about her son's feelings and the warning signs. I tried to speak with her and she just put up a wall.

ETA: I would totally break off contact with this person for the sake of your child. One day he's going to try to put a rope around your son's head or shut him in somewhere or otherwise harm him. Run, do not walk, away from this family.


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## NoMariposa (Apr 14, 2005)

If the uncle won't listen, speak to the wife -- another mother! I thought all mothers knew that killing animals was the first sign of SERIOUS problems that needed to be dealt with immediately. I thought everyone knew that??? I would make sure she knew about the animal killings, the peeing on mom's head and the injury to your own child. I would have to do this b/c if something serious were to happen I would feel super guilty for not informing her. Once I inform a person, it's their responsibility to do with it what they want.

I read this entire thread b/c I have a 4 yr old with aggression issues. He doesn't look smug though, he does not remember!!! I know he will hurt others unprevoked without knowing it hurt them, so I don't let him be around others without my presence. He has a medical disorder with regards to food, which at first I though was the issue and would resolve the issue. It's not, so we're moving on with our pedi to explore other options as the dietary option has been exhausted.

I think the big difference here is 1) I know my child needs help, 2) I do not fear him hurting me, nor has he ever be violent past the point of throwing toys, throwing a royal tantrum,pushing and the like and 3) I work with him and I'm seeking help b/c I see he is totally out of it when he strikes out at others. My own son seems to be leaning more toward an autistic spectrum disorder, which is totally different from the situation the OP describes -- but the point I want to make is the MOTHER IS FAILING HER CHILD!

CPS needs to be called b/c this mother needs a wake-up call. Children that young inflicting pain and suffering on animals to the point of death and then harming other children need certified counceling -- the mother should know this and should act accordingly. She has been told, by you and likely he was kicked out of preschool for behavior.

My sister just married a man with an older child who has serious behavior problems unidentified by the school system or medical professionals, of course dad was in denial. This kids scared me and I don't scare easily. I had to restrain a 10 yr old from beating the crap out of my 4 and 2 yr old when I was left to watch them before I knew what was up with this kid. They don't know what's wrong with him, but she is searching for answers and she will find a solution. That is the big difference again, a mother looking for answers, taking the child to the docs verse flippent dismissal that it's just a boy thing...

I fear someone suing me b/c my mentally disturbed child hurts another kid on the play ground, hence we don't go to the public play ground. My boy doesn't even want to play with other children anyway (which is part of my suspition of Autism) -- so no sad faces okay.

Please do the right thing and call CPS, this little boy needs help that his mother is not able to see he needs -- but everyone who has posted from what I can tell agrees he needs evaluation and help. I don't think I read 1 single post out of 65 that said to leave this issue alone.

And do keep your family away from this child and mother, it isn't worth the risk. Just remember it does not matter what another thinks of you, it only matters what you think of yourself. Your children may not like it, but when they are a bit older they will understand completely and thank you.


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## Girl In The Fire (Apr 6, 2005)

Sorry for the OT but....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoMariposa*
My sister just married a man with an older child who has serious behavior problems unidentified by the school system or medical professionals, of course dad was in denial. .

It could be the school has brought their suspicions up to the father but the father did not allow the child to be tested and diagnosed. My brothers children have some issues, niece has some learning disorders, and nephew I am 99% sure is autistic. The schools have been on my brother and sister about it for _years_ but SIL _REFUSES_ to allow the school to do any kind of testing and says the schools are terrible so they move every couple of years to find "better" schools. The kicker is my SIL is a Special Ed teacher and you would think she could recognize when her children have the very issues she sees on a daily basis, talk about denial!

To the OP please call CPS if you have not already, if not for any other reason that there is a 12 month old baby girl that is at risk of being horribly abused or worse


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
You can call CPS anonymously. Do that. Please call the SPCA or some organization that can remove that new cat from the household as well. (I can't stand the thought of that animal being set up for torture and death.)

















You can. On the other hand, if you're seriously concerned about her retaliating, maybe you should let them know your name and tell them about that concern.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

please call someone!


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Well, I did it. At first they said they might not do anything since he is so young. The worker still wasn't certain what they would do but was concerned that the mother wasn't even making him acknowledge what he did was wrong. She was also worried about the previous sexual acting out and hurting children without remorse. We'll see what they do.

My husband and I have decided to pretend we're cool with things until they blow over and we'll be moving within a couple of months and be done with the boy. I'll just make excuses on why we can't hang out until then. Honestly, the reason I was even questioning what I should do it that this is only a 35 pound, not-even-3-foot-tall little boy. It seems silly in a way to consider him on the same level as a serial killer, but one day he could be.

Now I'm reminded of something I did to the little boy she will probably use against me, so I'm a little worried. The day after he bounced on my son's head we went to the drive-in movies with him (the plans were made before and my boys didn't want to change them). Anyway, he sat on my son's (same son) chest and he was gasping unable to breathe and his mother was taking her sweet time getting him off first yelling at him then slowly getting up. Meanwhile my son was gasping and I flipped out and jumped up and over the seat and pushed the boy off my son. They were on the floor of my van in the dark and he landed only about 9 inches from where he was sitting on my son, on his folding chair (which I couldn't see when I did it). I guess he got a bruise (his mom said later) from his chair. Personally my son was in trouble and she let her son go on for what seemed like forever (maybe 30-45secs) so I had to do something. I, in no way threw him, just shoved him off my son. Should I be worried if she uses this against me?


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Sorry ladies, I tried posting this 3 hours ago and it didn't work. Just found out. Sorry to leave you hanging.

It's in CPS's hands now and I'm anxious to know what they will end up doing. I also forgot to add in my last post that I did specifically tell the worker about the baby girl he is around now and that I fear for her safety.


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

keep us posted...







s to you for being strong enough to do the right thing


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

Did you bring up your concerns re: false accusations as retaliation?
Well done Mama!








Do you feel at all relieved?


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maple Leaf Mama*
Did you bring up your concerns re: false accusations as retaliation?
Well done Mama!








Do you feel at all relieved?

Yes I told the worker about the false allegations about the father she did in retaliation and how she said she would do it to anyone who called on her. She made a specific note that I am worried she will do this to me.

Well, his mom called within an hour after I called CPS, so no, I'm not feeling much relief yet. I hope they will get the help they need but will be on edge until it blows over. I also don't want to make it obvious it was me who called since I'm not the only one who worried about her son openly to her. Still hoping she won't think it's me. We're moving soon enough I can keep her at bay.


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## gen_here (Dec 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
Here's another aspect that worries me. If I were to do both call and tell her I don't want her son around, she'll know I was the one to call and she would retaliate by calling them on me! She would and has on her child's father for calling on her about sexual acting out by this boy (which is one of the signs on the RAD link).

I know she would call on me in a heartbeat and as she said "do whatever it takes to get their kids taken away." Including _lie and exagerate_. I have a: homebirthed (one without birth cert), homeschooled, unvaxed, no checkups, 2 kids sleep in our room, two share a bed in another - family. They are also always dirty since they play outside all day and track it in no matter how much cleaning I do. I'm sure you all understand our lifestyle and why I'm hesitant.









I can totally understand why you would be worried about retribution. I would still call NOW... and then just be incredibly busy over the next few weeks/months that when she wants to get together - you have other plans. If that means that you and your son are hanging out at the library or park or whatever by yourselves WITHOUT her son, so be it.

Edit - Yeah - okay this looks really stupid here now. I tried posting it for quite awhile but kept getting the server was too busy. Sorry, and I'm glad you called, too!


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I'm glad you called - it was a brave thing to do (and the right thing too). Hopefully CPS et al will handle this well and he'll get the help he needs.

If the reason he's at his uncle's for care now is because he was kicked out of his preschool, it's entirely possible that she will assume that the preschool called him in, instead of you. So, this may be the optimal time for you to have reported things - she may decide to "go after" the wrong people in "retribution."

I'd keep quiet, and keep busy. Hopefully getting together as a family will be a moot point because he'll be in custody getting help/counseling. And, hopefully she'll also be receiving counseling too.

ITA with everyone else - this boy is sending out horrific warning signals. I don't know if there's a way to get someone on this track back to being able to be empathetic and so on - but if there's any hope at all of that, it's better than the alternative, which could well be serious physical harm to more animals, and to other people as well (if not their deaths). Especially with a 1 year old baby accessible to him!


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Not to be a pain, but could you call the SPCA too?







:


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm glad you made the call!!


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

I hate cps but you did the right thing,brave,neccessary move.This kid needs help and fast, hope thats what he gets. I'm glad you are moving soon as this could get ugly, just be wary as the mom doesn't sound like she is much worried about her son's very dodgy behaviour/situation and that is not a cool sign.Hope all will improve. I know you have been real good to this boy and he has been really violent and dangerous to those around him, probably cos he is ill basically. This made me cry. 4 years old! Imo kids do not end up like this without some serious damage/neglect occurring in their lives.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
Not to be a pain, but could you call the SPCA too?







:


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

Just wanted to say that you did the right thing. Definately still call the SPCA too.

I really wanted to say though, that if you know of ANYONE that agrees with you that this is very serious.....besides all of us here that have read this thread!! Please encourage them to call. The more calls CPS gets about a given situation, the more seriously they take it and the more quickly they investigate.

Good luck with all of this. I know that if must have been extremely difficult to call about this....and also extremely difficult for you to have dealt with this for so long. Hopefully she will become aware of the importance of getting her child help,


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the poor child is being abused by someone in his life. He is in danger as well as being a danger himself. You did the right thing.


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou*
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the poor child is being abused by someone in his life. He is in danger as well as being a danger himself. You did the right thing.

It could well be...but not necessarily. Sometimes undetected brain injury is at fault...although in this case, the mother is sorely lacking in empathy herself. She HAS to be, to bring another animal into the home.


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

I don't know why she is like this with the animals. She truly thinks she is doing the best thing for her child. Besides disciplining him, she is a very good mother in all other aspects except very over-indulgent. She really tries to consider the effect of everything she does on him like not introducing men she dates to him, keeping him in the same daycare even when she moved many times on the other side of town so he would have that constant, and other things that are kind of over-protective. She thinks glossing over this is in his best interest and nothing I have said has convinced her she is wrong.

I do feel kind of bad she will have to go through so much just to learn she is wrong and could have gotten her son the help he needed on her own. I think for her to put him in counseling is to admit she failed somehow and that her son is not perfect like she wishes. Also, talking about it will somehow scar him for life since he's currently too young to understand what he's done and will later forget he ever did it when he outgrows it.







Let's hope she can't convince CPS to agree with her.







:


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Please keep us updated.


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Wow. What a scary situation. I hope that the boy and his mother get the help they need. I also hope that she doesn't suspect you and that you move away without incident.

Hugs to you, mama.


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Have you been able to contact the uncle's wife to warn her about his behavoir?


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

This thread is to long for me to read the entire thing at this moment.. . but it sounds like sociopathic behavior to me. That boy needs help quickly. I'm thinking Reactive Attachment Disorder.


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## Cardinal (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
It could well be...but not necessarily. Sometimes undetected brain injury is at fault...although in this case, the mother is sorely lacking in empathy herself. She HAS to be, to bring another animal into the home.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I would tell her that he no longer allowed to play with my son. And as much as it would suck I would give her some information that explains how this behavior is sociopathic and ask her to get help for her son. I would also make it clear that if she didn't do it on her own I was prepared to intervene to make sure he got it by calling athourities.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I think this is one friendship worth losing.







I'm sorry to hear how mean her child is but he seems to have serious psychological problems. He probably needs to see a psychiatrist before it gets worse. Once he's school aged he will be nothing but trouble for other people around him. I feel for any future children he will be be around at playgrounds, family or school.

If it were me I would probably call CPS and have them visit the family. Let them see how violent he is for themselves and see what type of treatment he may need. He could have been born this way, had a brain injury when he was little or just got exposed to something that has scarred him for life.


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## caricandothis (May 24, 2006)

Huge hugs to you, mama. IMO, you are causing yourself too much stress about situation that is totally out of your control. You did what you KNOW you needed to do, even if it was hard to do and you're second guessing yourself now. You should be proud of yourself for stepping out of your comfort zone, it isn't easy, I know!

Second of all, I will keep you in my T&P regarding this situation. I hope that the mom is able to get her head out of the "perfect mother/perfect child" clouds and realize that her son has major problems and they need to be dealt with. I also hope that you and your family will be safe in the meantime. Please, please make that your #1 priority right now. You are responsible for your children/family's safety/health first and foremost.

Peace, mama. Please keep us posted.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

I know how much courage it took to make that call. Please let us know how things go . . . .


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## oyemicanto (Feb 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MPJJJ*
This child is hurting YOUR child! Why on earth are you still allowing that kid near your child? You owe it to your children to protect them, which you are miserably failing by allowing them to be injured by this child! Even if you do not call CPS, you need to step up to the plate and start protecting your own babies, not worrying about someone else's feelings.







:

Exactly! I ended a friendship because her child kept hurting my child, little things at first like pushing and hitting, but when he tackled her and bit her on the forehead - that was it. We never saw them again. Who is going to protect my child if I don't????


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Ruthla, you can put it as gently as anyone could-- that since he threatened to kill your dog, you don't feel comfortable with him around your family. But with some people, the suggestion that they or their kids have done anything even a little bit wrong is too much for them to accept. They will respond with the slightest displeasure as if you called thier kids ax murderers. So frankly, put your desires not to spend time with her son as kindly as you can for your own peace of mind. But prepare your heart for her inevitable bitterness towards you. And let it go in peace, knowing that you did the best thing for your family, and that you are okay with yourself.

Best wishes in this difficult and sad situation. But congrats for trying to keep your family safe.

Faith


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## K's Mom! (Jul 22, 2004)

You Did It! *I am so* *proud* *of you* for making that very hard call.







Hopefully this will be the first step to getting the mother and her son the help they need.

I too would be "busy" anytime that she called and keep your plans to move away and keep your dc far far away as possible. I would not allow that boy within 50 feet of my dc. No, He may not be very big now and _seem_ scary, but what he is _doing_ is soooo scary. If he is capable of abusing and torturing animals, Heaven only knows what else he is capable of. I agree with all of the other posters that now is not the time to be worried about hurt feelings.

sending healthy healing vibes to her and her boy>>>>>

And calming Peaceful vibes to you and your family>>>>>>

*Hugs*


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
It could well be...but not necessarily. Sometimes undetected brain injury is at fault...although in this case, the mother is sorely lacking in empathy herself. She HAS to be, to bring another animal into the home.

Well, I'm certainly not omniscient, but I'd think any sexualized 4-year-old is a prima facie case at least.
One would almost hope it was the case, honestly, as there's no real treament for sociopathy.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou*
Well, I'm certainly not omniscient, but I'd think any sexualized 4-year-old is a prima facie case at least.
One would almost hope it was the case, honestly, as there's no real treament for sociopathy.









No there isn't...except keeping the child out of society forever...

And he's just a kid. Sociopath, yes, kid yes...I dunno...are you sure there's no medication or something???? Like he's just a child. A warped and demented child at the moment, but since he's so YOUNG mabe there is hope?


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## Delacroix (Aug 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou*
Well, I'm certainly not omniscient, but I'd think any sexualized 4-year-old is a prima facie case at least.
One would almost hope it was the case, honestly, as there's no real treament for sociopathy.

I was referring to *THIS* child, who is not sexualized based on these posts.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

DO NOT LET YOUR SONS BE NEAR THIS CHILD EVER.

NOT EVER.

FOR ANY REASON.

Listen, I'm not a psychologist. I'm an English teacher, actually, but in the study of characters in literature, I've done a decent amount of research into sociopathy as defined in the DSM-IV. See link.I'm also one of those people who likes criminology as a hobby, so please take what I'm going to say with the appropriate grains of salt now that you know my résumé.

From your description, I think the boy is a sociopath with definitely violent and possibly homicidal potential. Typically, violent sociopaths engage in what some researchers have called the "homicidal triad" of related disorders, including arson, bedwetting, and violence toward animals. They progress upward, moving from violence toward animals to violence toward people.

This boy is violent, period. Unless I am very, very mistaken, he will continue to escalate in his behavior and will commit an act of violence on anything weaker than himself, _including your children_. This is not normal behavior. He needs to have psychiatric intervention NOW, but there's little that can be done about it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
I seriously don't know what to do. My friend is a single mother and very lenient with her son. He seems to have no sympathy or feelings about hurting anyone or anything. I have seen him have a smug look every time I've witnessed him do anything also (which is the most disgusting part, IMO). He killed a rabbit and a cat at 3yo and is now 4 1/2 and killed another cat. Last week he threatened to kill my dog because HE tripped over her rump. He has also strangled my dog with various ropes and strings before. I've tried to explain why that's not acceptable, but it obviously doesn't work and there's only so much I can do seeing him seldom.

He has jumped up and down on my child's head and scarred his face another time by scratching him, and sat on another son's back pinning him face down on a tile floor and smashed his head into the tiles. Another time threw a brick and cut my son's forehead down to his skull.









After the last cat died I told her he needed counseling. She made excuses for him as usual saying it's "boy stuff" and he'll outgrow it. All of these animals that have died have been "defective." Her uncle said a 4 1/2 year old isn't capable of knowing the results of his actions.







: Previously the boy had thrown the cat against a wall, locked it in small toy cages and pots, squeezed it when angry, tried drowning it before in a cage in the bath tub, and when it finally died my friend found it in the tub with water. She said it drowned itself since it liked sleeping in the tub and must not have known there was water in there and had not jumped out because it was sick since she saw it peed blood the night before.







: I had told her she needed to give the cat away after hearing about the previous things before it died. She refused.

After the cat died, she said she would never get another animal so I didn't push it about him needing counseling. She now has another cat.







: What should I do?









***moderator edit - title description changed***


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delacroix*
I was referring to *THIS* child, who is not sexualized based on these posts.


Post #24 referred to "sexual acting out" by the child, that's what I had in mind.

It's very sad to be discussing a 4 year old as if there is no hope for him to be anything other than a horrible criminal, and I honestly hope it is not the case. I hope there is help for him, and that he gets it. I don't know what the prognosis is for severe conduct disorder in such a young child.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

You've had tons of great advice in this thread and I'm so glad that you called CPS. Please call The Humane Society and tell them about the animal abuse, too, if they can't do anything, I'm sure they can refer you to someone who can. Thank goodness that that boy and that cat have you in their life to actually make a good decision to ensure they get help, but you've done your part and now you can choose to be out of their lives for good.

I am disturbed by the fact that your children LIKE this boy. My children always HATED being around rough children, the kind who were mean to them and violent. I think it's a really bad lesson to teach your children that it is okay to act that way to them, even if you intervene, because now your children feel that it is normal childhood behavior. You need to take them away from him and tell them specifically that they are never allowed to play with him again because he is very violent and it is not okay. Then tell them that you are going to go to playgroups, the library, on field trips, etc., to make sure that you find them some nice kind gentle new friends.

Please protect your children's bodies, their minds, their feelings and keep them away from this boy.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

I am a shrink, and there is no "sociopath" diagnosis for a child in the DSM-IV(TR). It's called "conduct disorder" (it's mentioned earlier in this thread) and morphs into other diagnoses once a child reaches 18-ish. Believe me when I say that there is no known effective treatment -- pharmaceutical or otherwise -- for sociopathy. But the child we're talking about isn't completely lost, at least not yet, if he gets immediate and ongoing treatment. *Sociopaths are not born, they're created.* Something has gone seriously wrong in this child's family -- he hasn't learned empathy, which begins in the toddler years.

Since he's only 4, there's still hope. So let's not give up on him, or children like him . . . it's in all our interests that they receive help. Unfortunately, though, most children don't get the treatment they need, and by the time they're adolescents it's too late. (I should also throw in here that most sociopaths aren't violent or dangerous -- about 10% of the population qualifies as sociopathic -- but this kid is exhibiting some seriously disturbing behaviors.)


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita*
But the child we're talking about isn't completely lost, at least not yet, if he gets immediate and ongoing treatment. *Sociopaths are not born, they're created.* Something has gone seriously wrong in this child's family -- he hasn't learned empathy, which begins in the toddler years.

This is why I decided to call even though I know the mother will try some form of revenge. He needs help and hopefully he will get it. It's obvious he hasn't learned empathy, but I can't imagine how he couldn't have. What causes that? His mother seems very loving with him and him reciprical to her (except peeing on her which is very strange). Big smooches on the lips, bear hugs, and cutesy names. It seems at least Day Care could have fostered some empathy in him since they had him all day since birth. How could a child not learn empathy if they've been show love as his mother has, which I've witnessed?

I haven't heard from her in 2 days since the afternoon after I called CPS. Would they have visited her yet? How long does it take usually? Does anyone know?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
Well, I did it. At first they said they might not do anything since he is so young. The worker still wasn't certain what they would do but was concerned that the mother wasn't even making him acknowledge what he did was wrong. She was also worried about the previous sexual acting out and hurting children without remorse. We'll see what they do.

My husband and I have decided to pretend we're cool with things until they blow over and we'll be moving within a couple of months and be done with the boy. I'll just make excuses on why we can't hang out until then. Honestly, the reason I was even questioning what I should do it that this is only a 35 pound, not-even-3-foot-tall little boy. It seems silly in a way to consider him on the same level as a serial killer, but one day he could be.

Now I'm reminded of something I did to the little boy she will probably use against me, so I'm a little worried. The day after he bounced on my son's head we went to the drive-in movies with him (the plans were made before and my boys didn't want to change them). Anyway, he sat on my son's (same son) chest and he was gasping unable to breathe and his mother was taking her sweet time getting him off first yelling at him then slowly getting up. Meanwhile my son was gasping and I flipped out and jumped up and over the seat and pushed the boy off my son. They were on the floor of my van in the dark and he landed only about 9 inches from where he was sitting on my son, on his folding chair (which I couldn't see when I did it). I guess he got a bruise (his mom said later) from his chair. Personally my son was in trouble and she let her son go on for what seemed like forever (maybe 30-45secs) so I had to do something. I, in no way threw him, just shoved him off my son. Should I be worried if she uses this against me?

Be honest. Tell them what you said here and tell them WHY you did it: you were scared for your son's life and acted hastily because you didn't want him to suffocate.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita*
I am a shrink, and there is no "sociopath" diagnosis for a child in the DSM-IV(TR). It's called "conduct disorder" (it's mentioned earlier in this thread) and morphs into other diagnoses once a child reaches 18-ish.

No, but "sociopath" is generally better known than "conduct disorder" or "antisocial personality disorder," which is why I used that term, but linked to the relevant content in the online DSM-IV.

Quote:

Believe me when I say that there is no known effective treatment -- pharmaceutical or otherwise -- for sociopathy. But the child we're talking about isn't completely lost, at least not yet, if he gets immediate and ongoing treatment. *Sociopaths are not born, they're created.* Something has gone seriously wrong in this child's family -- he hasn't learned empathy, which begins in the toddler years.
You're raising an interesting issue, one that I was wondering about. How do people know that sociopaths aren't born, but created? What studies have been done to prove this? Is empathy an _entirely_ learned concept?


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## IansMommy (Jun 14, 2005)

If you are afraid to call CPS and stop seeing them--protect your son first, and just stop seeing them. Wait a bit, and then call CPS. No amount of politeness is warrented here. Protect your son.

I cannot stress that loudly enough--protect your son!!!


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

WOW. took me about an hour to read that whole thing and now i think my eyes may fall out of my head...but good for you for calling! i dont know where you are but in my personal expierence they warned the family about coming out to investgate (ill give a little background so you dont think im cps-happy!)

the family that lives above my daughters father regularly gets into fights and one day the little boy (7 yo) said to me "my mommy and daddy get into fights a lot"
and i said "yeah, grown ups do that some times"
"do you n joe fight a lot?"
"sometimes"
"does joe hit you?"
"no, he never has"
"are you a pillhead?"







"no..."
"my mommy is, she takes my pills that the docter gave me and eats them...some times she crushes them up and sniffs them up her nose"
at this point i was at a lack of words and said "...o"
"will you be my mommy?"

then later i heard them lock him in his room and he was SCREAMING "no daddy, no, im sorry, im sorry, im sorry, IM SORRY!!! MOMMY, PLEASE MOMMY, IM SORRY" followed by a lot of banging...

all they did was send out a warning and i havent heard if they visited yet...







:

but keep us updated!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissAbbyRosesMamma*
"will you be my mommy?"

Wow. I'd be awfully tempted to say "yes" at that one!!!!


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## IansMommy (Jun 14, 2005)

Duh...I didn't read your post that you called. You did the right thing. Now just love your own little one and keep him far away from that child.
You did them both a favor. I really hope CPS doesn't drop the ball on this one.


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
Wow. I'd be awfully tempted to say "yes" at that one!!!!

i was! im taking him to the aquarium in a week and a half. imagine that, i met his for all of five minutes and shes letting me take her son to an aquarium in another state. SOMEONE needs to let him be a kid


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Well, they left their card on her door! I feel like such a turd pretending to be shocked, but I don't want to deal with CPS at my house in retaliation. Or who knows who else she'd get to harass me! She's very distraught.

Does anyone know how much detail the CPS worker will give her of what they were told by me? I told them examples of how he has hurt my children which will be obvious it was me if they tell her these specifics. Will they just ask her general questions or state broad things like they know he has killed animals and hurt children?

Help! I'm freaking out. I'm very non-confrontational if that wasn't glaringly obvious before!







:


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

since you warned them about her probable retaliation they may state broad incidences "we have reports of your son hurting children..." and im sure your kids arent the only ones hes like that too so you should be safe there!


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## Jaydens_mom (Aug 12, 2006)

Usually with CPS (CAS here in canada) they are VERY good with keeping the caller annomynous and will just state that they have had complaints that her child has been killing/torturing animals, and excessively agressive towards other children.
They won't go into specifics of what they heard ( him banging your sons head off the floor and etc ) just basics.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Wow, MissAbbyRosesMamma, it is awfully unusual to let some virtual stranger take your child anywhere, it's odd to even allow them in the strange neighbor's house without supervision. Thank goodness you are a safe person! It's great that he will now have a decent role model in his life, finally. Poor child!

To MyCalling, stay strong, Mama. You did the right thing, even if she confronts you and yells at you, you did the right thing, she is the one who is not doing a good job of advocating for her child. He desperately needs help and she is choosing not to give it to him. He probably is or has been abused at some time in his life and his mother did not give him the help or safety that he needed to deal with it. You did the right thing! Please, please, please try to hold onto that. I'm crossing my fingers that CPS really goes after this case and sets up a really good solution for that little boy.


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
Wow, MissAbbyRosesMamma, it is awfully unusual to let some virtual stranger take your child anywhere, it's odd to even allow them in the strange neighbor's house without supervision. Thank goodness you are a safe person! It's great that he will now have a decent role model in his life, finally. Poor child!


dont i know it! ive never seen someone so uncaring towards their own child! i wouldnt be surprised if some creepy person picked him up off the street while she was sitting outfront







: ill never understand it


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## Susuhound (Jul 5, 2006)

I would say with almost 100% certainty that this child has been terribly abused. In this country that behaviour is a red light for reporting and intervention. You did the right thing reporting this. There is still hope for this child if he gets help SOON. Take care.


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## HeatherHeather (Jan 7, 2004)

It is *not* a certainty that this child was abused. Sometimes children are really just born with a great propensity for this behavior.

I was going to point out that just b/c the child hugs/kisses his mother, it doesn't mean that he has loving/empathic feelings for her. He may be using that behavior to manipulate her.

The kid definitely meets criteria for conduct disorder. Sadly, the younger the onset and the more severe the symptoms, the worse the outcome. This child needs help *now*, is he is going to improve at all. I hope the mom takes this as a major wake-up call, and seeks help for her son on her own. It is unlikely that CPS will provide the intensive treatment that might help him.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
I don't know why she is like this with the animals. She truly thinks she is doing the best thing for her child. Besides disciplining him, she is a very good mother in all other aspects except very over-indulgent. She really tries to consider the effect of everything she does on him like not introducing men she dates to him, keeping him in the same daycare even when she moved many times on the other side of town so he would have that constant, and other things that are kind of over-protective. She thinks glossing over this is in his best interest and nothing I have said has convinced her she is wrong.

I just read a true-crime book. The man who committed the crimes had parents who loved him very much and took very good care of him. They loved him so much they made excuses for *everything* he did.

It's not about her being a bad parent, it's about the little boy needing help.


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Well, I have an update. She found out every detail I told them and knows it came from...someone I've told.







She is making comments that I should have been called on as much as her...so I'm sure it's coming. Here's her reasons:

She was talking about how even though her son initiated those sexual acts (his dad called CPS on previously) with my son (which I seriously don't think either are capable of understanding), her son might have learned it from my house! She also said that her son strangling and threatening to kill my dog is equal to her seeing my sons HUG our dog to tight! Also, she could say the same thing about how much anger issues my son has for throwing a small rock at her son after he had his forehead smashed in with the chunk of cement (it wasn't a brick, I had forgotten)! Meanwhile, I still talked with my son about that even though he was the clear victim.

She's beginning to pi$$ me off and I think it's only a matter of time before I blow up on her. Talking about my sons being equal to a psycho little boy! GRRR.

ALSO







, she has spoken with a Vet who says the cat who most recently died did so because of Kidney failure! I'm sure she called and asked why a cat would pee blood and that's the answer...no other details. Also, the rabbit that died before was a feeder rabbit and she was told when she got it that "it was defective or had a disease and that's why it was labelled a Feeder and it would die at any moment." Bulls







t! My husband's friend raised rabbits and feeder rabbits are not ill in any way. This was not the story she told when it happened. These are always the stories she comes up with weeks, months, years later after someone plants excuses in her mind.

She was whining about how they will probably make him get counseling. GOOD!


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## Maple Leaf Mama (Jul 2, 2004)

She knows it was you? Did she confront you?
I would call CPS RIGHT NOW and talk to that person again and say WTF!!!???
What part of revenge don't you understand??
And she whining about getting councelling? I think she has issues and THAT is where her son is getting his problems!
I'm so angry right now!!


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Why are you still talking to her?

*RUN FAR FAR AWAY FROM THIS FAMILY AND NEVER LOOK BACK*


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean*
Why are you still talking to her?

*RUN FAR FAR AWAY FROM THIS FAMILY AND NEVER LOOK BACK*









: plus, it is not really going to look as though you actually fear this child if you continue to maintain any relationship with the family. just my opinion.

How stressful!!!


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KeysMama*







: plus, it is not really going to look as though you actually fear this child if you continue to maintain any relationship with the family. just my opinion.

How stressful!!!

My husband doesn't want me getting us into CPS issues because of her. He actually didn't want me to call because of us being called on in retaliation but in the end I felt the boy needed help more and called when he was gone. I'm trying to make this as non-confrontational as possible to avoid her calling with a bunch of lies about us. His thoughts are that we're almost ready to move and we can avoid her until then. Even my mom agrees with him and she hates this little boy for all the things he's done to her grandsons. See, you all are the only ones on my side, so I'm in a tough spot.

She was told things by the CPS worker that her son did to my children and dog, so it was obvious. I tried to blow it off telling her I have told many people about the things he's done and so has my mom who lives with us and has seen these things firsthand. She doesn't know what to believe and I think her listing off things my children have done which she sees as CPS-worthy was her anger left-over from before she called and I gave her another possible way I could be connected to this, but not the one who did it. Does that make any sense? Ugh! Stressful is right!

We'll see what she does. I'm hoping she just stops calling me and I might just blow up and use her insinuating those things about my children as the way to get her to if she keeps calling. I could care less if she calls CPS on me anymore. My kids are great, my house is fine. I'll justify every fringe-lifestyle choice we've made. I just want to get it over with!


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
but in the end I felt the boy needed help more and called when he was gone.

you did the right thing.


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## Earth Angel (Dec 13, 2004)

You did do the right thing. We are all mandated to report as community members. You are helping a little boy and his mother.....even if they can't recognize it right now. The thought of counseling is often threatening to many....unfortunately (I'm a social worker and used to work in an agency that supported children and their families).
I don't think there would be a problem if you contacted CPS today or Mon and let them know anything she has been saying to you (if you feel threatened yourself, even with retaliation of lies she may say to them). If at all possible, document any conversations you have with her from here on out. You might also want to sit down and just make some notes for yourself about the incidents you did disclose to CPS. That way, if they contact you for any further info, you won't forget anything (I saw you are pregnant....I always forgot everything when pregnant







and they will want as much info as possible)
But definately, don't have contact with the family. If she calls, just try to get off the phone. And, don't call back... you can always claim that preggo brain!!! I completely understand that this situation is very unnerving for you, and that you don't want to set her off. That isn't worth it either.








s mamma, I hope that things begin to cool off for you and your family.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Good for you for calling. It was a tough moral stand to take. And you did it, despite opposition from your family.









For a better world, we all need to do something beyond the 'comfortable'. Congratulations! Give yourself a big hug.







(I looked for a "pat yourself on the back" icon, but couldn't find it







.)

Let's hope that CPS sees through her 'excuses' about how her kid could have learned this.

Now practice "Gee, you know with our move and the 4 kids, I've got sooooo much to do. Can't stay on the phone."


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*








ALSO







, she has spoken with a Vet who says the cat who most recently died did so because of Kidney failure! I'm sure she called and asked why a cat would pee blood and that's the answer...no other details. Also, the rabbit that died before was a feeder rabbit and she was told when she got it that "it was defective or had a disease and that's why it was labelled a Feeder and it would die at any moment." Bulls







t! My husband's friend raised rabbits and feeder rabbits are not ill in any way. This was not the story she told when it happened. These are always the stories she comes up with weeks, months, years later after someone plants excuses in her mind.

!

Umm sounds a little odd to me, and I am a vet...usually cats in kidney failure drink a lot, and urinate a lot and have very dilute watery urine. A bladder infection or injury could cause them to urinate blood but uinless it was a kidney infection or some other kidney disease kidney failure would not have those symptoms. I seriously doubt the story about the feeder rabbit too. I hope they remove either him or any other animals from the house too, as obviously they would be in danger. Does not seem to me he has the ideal personality for a vet...scary his mother would think so!

Lets hope he gets the help he needs and that he can be straightened up, it seems sad to condemn a 4 year old as a future serial killer, and I hope there is some change here, and the situation is changed so he can hurt no more animals or children in the meantime. He sounds seriously disturbed and in desparate need of help. I would really break off contact with her, you don't have to answer the phone and talk to her, you can be just conveniently busy. At least it sounds as if he is getting counselling and thats a start, and maybe a step to his mother realizing there is a serious problem, whether or not he was born with sociopathic tendencies or had an abusive family history or both.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling*
It's obvious he hasn't learned empathy, but I can't imagine how he couldn't have. What causes that? His mother seems very loving with him and him reciprical to her (except peeing on her which is very strange). Big smooches on the lips, bear hugs, and cutesy names. It seems at least Day Care could have fostered some empathy in him since they had him all day since birth. How could a child not learn empathy if they've been show love as his mother has, which I've witnessed?

Well, we don't know what mom is like behind closed doors, and we don't know what daycare is like, either. Perhaps his mom didn't learn empathy as a child and is therefore unable to model it for her son. There's no way to know for sure. Sociopaths are excellent at appearing "normal," and say all the right things . . . it's their behavior that gives them away. Like I said, there are millions of "garden variety" sociopaths running around who never escalate to violent behavior. We only hear about the serial killers. This child urinated on him mother's head . . . I don't know exactly what he was trying to communicate by doing this, but I can guess . . . not to mention the fact that his mother proudly states her intent to retaliate against anyone who calls CPS . . . yikes! You don't need a degree in psychology to put these pieces together.

When I said sociopaths are created, not born, I was thinking of the myriad studies about attachment and the development of empathy done primarily by Bowlby, but also many others in recent years. Humans are social creatures, and we learn by observing/experiencing our caretakers. So even though genetics do play a large role in our propensity for certain behaviors, it's the environment in which we live that is the defining factor for which behaviors emerge. IOW, if this child was experiencing a safe and healthy environment, he wouldn't act out violently even if he's genetically predisposed to do so.

Anyway, please continue to take care of yourself and your family, and good luck with the move!


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## bratmobile (Jun 30, 2004)

This thread is giving me chills. I just want to thank you for calling and give you a







. It must have been terribly hard to call CPS when no one else wanted you to. Even if they do end up coming to your door it will be fine since your household is healthy and happy. It is noble and right that you called despite the fact that it might inconvenience you with a undeserving visit from CPS. I wish you peace away from this other family.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

You absolutely did the right thing. That mother needs CPS intervention. Any child who acts out violently as he did needs serious help, and now! I'm facing somewhat of a similar situation except it doesn't involve violence but serious neglect on the mother's part...there's a thread about it in the parenting issues. I'm afraid I might have to call CPS and it's such a hard decision to make but in this cases like this where the parents refuse to acknowledge and seek help for their child's violent and destructive behavior than it is needed and warranted. I hope that child gets some help. Stay strong, you did the right thing.


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## SerafinasMommy (Dec 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MPJJJ*
This child is hurting YOUR child! Why on earth are you still allowing that kid near your child? You owe it to your children to protect them, which you are miserably failing by allowing them to be injured by this child! Even if you do not call CPS, you need to step up to the plate and start protecting your own babies, not worrying about someone else's feelings.







:

My thoughts exactly. Get proactive with your own kids at least. How could you even care what this person thinks of you? He stomped on your childs skull????







:


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Just wondering if there are any new developments . . . ?


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## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita*
Just wondering if there are any new developments . . . ?

Nothing new. The mother hasn't called me for 3 weeks...thank goodness! I hve no idea if she was ordered to take him to counselling or anything.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

Well - if CPS hasn't talked to you, either at this point - that's a good sign, isn't it? I'd been wondering if you were going to have any sort of harassing charges leveled against you by her. Good to hear that if she tried, they didn't fly.

Maybe she's actually scared into getting help for herself and her ds. One can hope. How much longer 'til you move?


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

I really really really really hope that this family gets the help they so desperately need. I hope against hope that CPS truly stays on top of it and makes sure the mother is following through.


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

This child is looking for the shock value in his behaviors. If he is looking at you smuggly after he does these things he knows what he is doing and he is milking his mother and everyone around him for attention. There is a definate disorder here. I have a son who is PDD, ODD and ADHD and he would say twisted and bizzare things all the time when he was around 4-6. But after having him evaluated and treated since he was 4 has helped him a lot. He however never harmed animals and that is very disturbing that he keeps doing it. I am glad you called CPS maybe the state will step up where this mom hasnt and help him.


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## bburnie2 (Sep 28, 2004)

You know what- I am stunned. Call CPS immediatly- and continue doing so untill they pay attention. Even if you lose the friendship, hopefully she will understand one day why you did what you did. Seriously, what the PPs have said about serial killers starting out with animals at a young age is true.

The sad thing is that since she has never had a solid, consistant form of discipline, its hard to start now. She needs to realize that its NOT normal boy behavior and its going to get worse before it gets better IF she does start a consistant form of discipline. If started at an early age, MOST kids do not respond well to physical punishment (such as spanking), but since she didn't do that- shes in a whole different ball game. I can see why the CPS person telling her to spank isn't ok, BUT, maybe he was so badly behaved that even the CPS person thought "wow, lets see if spanking will work?" Were all human and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I am just stunned!


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