# Help me come up with the natural consequences for...



## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

(DS is 5) WWYD?

1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv...

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?)

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family).

4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner.

5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection.

6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings.

7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

I've read both your posts, so I'll try to address both with my response. Barring anything physically (which you seem to be suspecting) or emotionally (which you have ruled out - at school anyway) "wrong" with him, it seems to me that he is asking for something from you and your dh.

I see parenting as a continual dance with my kids. Sometimes when things are going really great, I tend to relax the "discipline" aspect of GD and swing more over to the "gentle" side. Typically when this happens, my kids react by acting out more which causes me to need to come back more to the center and have more of a gentle/discipline balance. Having said that, however, for my kids at least, the only way back to center is to become WAY more "disciplined" for awhile. So, having read your current situation in this way, if this was happening in my house, I think I would err on the side of having super firm limits for the time being until you can achieve a sense of balance - taking your cues from your dc.

For example with the bed jumping. After attempts at more gentle tactics, I think I would have a discussion involving 1) a summary of what's been tried and what's failed 2) a statement about why you don't want him to jump on the bed and 3) brainstorming about a solution. If he can't/won't participate in that discussion, I would have no problem saying, "I get it that you don't want to talk about it, but things can't go on this way. I think I'm going to come up with a solution on my own." Then I would put his mattress on the floor for a time. To me this seems like a pretty logical, natural consequence.

I'm sure some here will react that that solution as too harsh, but I truly believe that there are times when kids absolutely scream, "Please contain me!" and it's our job to respond to those cues with some firm limits that help them feel safe and more in control of their experiences. But, this is just what works for me and I definitely have to get out of the place of having a big emotional investment in whether my kids like me when we're going through a hard time.

Here are some other examples of how I'd handle things:
1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv...

Nothing happens until the milk is cleaned up - no privileges including TV. My tone would sound something like, "sure honey, you can XYZ just as soon as this milk is cleaned up".

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?) Throw the toy away without shaming. Just a natural thing that happens when stuff breaks.

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family). I would leave the dinner on the table while the rest of the family eats and then put it in the fridge later. If he gets hungry I would offer dinner again. He won't starve if he chooses to skip dinner. I think the rest of the family carries on with dinner as usual. My 3 yo often leaves the table mid meal and then returns later. That's fine, but while I'm eating I'm talking and interacting with the people at the table, not the people who have left the table (unless there's an emergency).

4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner. The coat is taken away. At five he is definitely old enough to be taking better care of his things.

5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection.

6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings. A toughie. Many, many different opinions on this one, so I won't add my input here.

7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way.

I hope this helps offer some perspective. Good luck with this journey.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv...

*turn off the tv - we can play after we clean the mess. would you like to do it yourself, or would you like me to help you?*

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?)

*How sad, the toy is broken now. We have to throw it away. How can we take better care in the future that our toys don't break?

or if it was done out of anger...

How sad, the toy is broken now. We have to throw it away. You were feelings angry when you threw the toy. When mommy gets angry it helps when I _____________. What do you think might help you when you get angry next time? Would you like me to help you come up with some ideas?*

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family).
*
If he is not hungry, and you are insistent dinner time is family time together (and don't want to switch it for a game you all play together after dinner) then you can say "We're having dinner at the table! Please join us, even if you aren't hungry, we enjoy your company!" Perhaps offer a quiet activity he can do at the table while others eat, but that won't totally preoccupy him from conversing with the family. As far as dinner goes, try letting them help you cook it, or giving them a day of the week where they get to pick dinner (from a list or preapproved options) etc. If he doesn't want dinner and is hungry later, as long as you are a family who does healthy snacks instead of "traditional desserts" I see no reason why he can't skip dinner but still join in at snack time. I don't make a big fuss about food issues, I just makes sure all meals and snacks are healthy. provide the food, its their job whether or not to eat the food. make a big deal of it and you set yourself up for a power stuggle. If they still don't join at the table I would say "I really missed having you join us at dinner tonight.*

4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner.
*
"You forgot to hang up your coat"
"the coat belong hung up in the closet"
"I don't like coats being left on the floor"
"please be considerate and hang up your coat"
"Coat!"
Leave a note on the Coat "Dear Child, I am lost! please help me find my way home to Hanger Street! Thank you, your coat" (if they can't read, say "I found a note to you from your coat. it says "xyz" read it to them and then hand them the note)

Try senquencing
"First hang up your coat, then we can have our snack"
"after you hang up your coat, we are going to play xyz"*

5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection.

*Have you offered a place where he CAN jump? I let my kids jump n their beds when I am holding their hands. I would probably say "Jumping on the bed is fun! but also dangerous! I will let you jump for a few minutes while I hold your hands, but then we have to stop" Or you can skip to my next step "You can jump in this box" (use colorful electral tape to make a box on the groud) they can jump in it, or in and out of it. or try "jumping is a great outdoor activity! lets go!"*

6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings.
*This is where I'm going to suggest a few books. Playful Parenting and How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids Talk...
*
7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way.

*"You are feeling xyz becauze xyz. I can't let you hurt others though. Let's come up with some ways to handle our emotions that are safe for ourselves and others around us.*


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

_1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad_

Seems like he's trying to make YOU mad, so I'd clean it up cheerfully and tell him that if he spills you can only give him water for the rest of the night because you don't want to waste milk or juice. I would definitely not give him juice, if he asks politely or not. If he continues this behavior I would start giving all the kids water all the time, just to save your sanity.

_2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?)_

I would ask him to throw it in the garbage, calmly. If he continued to treat his toys in that way I would put up the breakable toys so he can't break them anymore because you cannot afford to waste toys.

_3) Child will not come to the table for dinner._

I would let him eat it later. The natural consequence is that he'll miss you and miss spending time with you. Just make sure to have lots of fun and if he tries to get your attention, tell him that you're paying attention to the people at the table now.

_4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner._

Give him a ratty old coat that you don't care about, and tell him that you can't let him have the nice coat if he does not take care of it.

_5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection._

I'd put the mattress on the floor, too.

_6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings._

The goal is to hurt the person's feelings, I think, so telling about it isn't going to help, but instead encourage the behavior. I would separate him from the younger brother, in a much less fun area.
_
7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way._

I would isolate him or otherwise contain him physically. I wouldn't tell him how much it hurts. I would be as cheerful and matter-of-fact as possible.


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## ~*Guest (Dec 31, 2006)

Hey Monkeybum,
You posted on my post that you were in a similar situation as me with a difficult 5 year old. I just wanted to share that last night, I got really silly with my dd. I had been serious all day, stressed about jobs and kids and what not; however, I summoned the energy and sang her a silly song about how much I love her and held her, etc.. This actually seemed to help a lot that evening. She actually gave me a compliment, which never happens. She said, "YOu are really funny sometimes Mama". Wow.
So I think at least part of the problem with us is the connection, and her feeling loved. I guess that I haven't realised it, but I am less likely to give her the kind of touchy feely silly love that you give younger kids, and she still really needs that.
I am not sure if this is what we need in every situation, but it works sometimes. Best of luck with your lo.


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## Lazy Gardens (Dec 11, 2008)

Quote:

1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv....
Child does not get juice - that's a reward for spilling milk. Child is retrieved from the TV watching and handed a clean-up rag and told to clean up the mess.

Child is informed that deliberately wasting food is not allowed and that child's meal will be over each time it happens ... abuse the food, the food is removed and child can try again at the next meal.

Quote:

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?).
Abuse a toy, toy is removed and disposed of. Toy does not get replaced.

Quote:

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family)..
Child doesn't have to come to table, but child will not get fed until the next meal ... if you save the meal you reward the behavior.

Quote:

4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner..
Child loses coat for a couple of days, even if it means not playing outside and going to school cold. Any possession that is being abused is removed from the abuser for a day or two.

Quote:

5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection.
Mom takes the bed away because child is abusing it. Child can sleep on the floor for a week.

Quote:

6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings.
Ignore the name calling ... any attention is rewarding.

If he hits younger brother, impose the declared penalty ... decide what favorite activity he will lose and inform him of it, then enforce it consistently.

Quote:

7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way.
Remove the child from the family setting for a while, and tell child that child can rejoin the group when child feels that child can refrain from hitting and kicking.

Also, consider getting martial arts training for child - much of this aggression can be channeled into the dojo where it will be handled appropriately. If child loses control in judo class, the practice partner can handle it ... any loss of concentration and focus usually ends up with child on the floor (unhurt) wondering what happened.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
(DS is 5) WWYD?

1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv...

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?)

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family).

4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner.

5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection.

6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings.

7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way.


1) I am not a maid so if I had to clean up the mess because my dd refused I would take money from her piggy bank to pay myself for my maid services. I would of course have told her about this before.

2) I would throw away the toy quietly and not replace it.

3) I would suggest that you move dinner time back so I make sure he is going to be hungry and ready to eat.

4) Model hanging up your own coat and putting your shoes away and remind him to put shoes away.

5) Take away the privelage to sleep on the bed or be alone in the bedroom.

6 and 7) It sounds like he needs some serious parent imposed consequences. Time-out, loss of privelage, or being sent away from the rest of the family until he is in control of his bod seems more in line. Especially if this is an ongoing thing and he views family members and toys as his person items to harm whenever he feels like hurting someone or something.

If he is generally ignoring what you say and treating you like a punching bag and you are very good about following through with consequences already, then I think you should consider some intervention from a family psychologist.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Helping children learn better behavior is always a two-pronged thing for me. I deal with specific issues (such as you describe) but I also make sure that I am not contributing to the problem or that circumstances aren't contributing to the problem. So, in addition to taking direct steps, if child, or children, are uncooperative a lot, I will always "run the checklist" in my mind to see if our home is off-kilter in general. Then I will work both on discipline for specific issues as well as whatever broader issues come up.

So, I would ask myself:
* Child getting enough sleep? Am *I* getting enough sleep to be an effective mommy?
* Regular healthy meals/snacks offered at appropriate intervals to child? Am *I* eating correctly? Is everyone drinking enough water?
* Child getting enough exercise, playtime, outdoor time? Am I? Does child need sport or some other organized way to burn energy?
* Major stressors/transitions that might be throwing people off their game? Do I need to make allowances for environmental things that are causing issues? I'd still deal with issues, but maybe with greater tolerance than otherwise.
* Am I using proper transitation cues?
* Am I modelling the behavior I expect from the kids? I catch myself forgetting to say "please" and "thank you" and sounding impatient and not answering quickly all the time. If I can't do it, I certainly can't expect the kids to!
* Are my expectations reasonable for my specific child given his age/personality/situation or am I letting myself get caught up in other's opinions or comments? Am I doing something reflexively, e.g. just because my mother did it?

In general I try to use natural consequences when possible, logical when natural aren't going to be practical. My rule of thumb is that if I can't explain it to child in 1 sentence at his level, I have the wrong approach or the wrong expectation. I ask myself "Is this really a rule I need or is there an easier way?" all the time.

With that in mind, for your specifics I would:

Spilled milk in anger: Wouldn't ever happen at our house. Kids are in charge of his own drinks, and we mostly drink only water away from meal times. He would have gotten himself water or juice and power struggle would have been avoided. Since they were 2 both kids have had free access to food and drink -- I don't get in the middle of it at all. They know where their drinks and snacks are and taking care of themselves is their responsiblity. If things are spilled and not cleaned up, there is no other activity until it is taken care of, with explanation "Its not safe, people can slip. Its your responsibility to clean up after yourself". Demanding instead of asking is met with silence and no action. Thus "Get me juice" would get no response at all from me, beyond perhaps a raised eyebrow.

Thrown toy. Assuming this was an anger response, toy would be thrown away without comment. It would absolutely not be replaced. If thrown for "fun", would still be tossed without replacement but with a more sympathy. Throwing things is "violent" to me, so I would deal with this one as a priority.

Dinner: In our house, first one to the table gets to pick grace, so mostly they both race for the table. Maybe you can find an incentive to encourage him to come? Assuming that grace won't work for you, maybe he gets to pick the opening topic of conversation? Serve himself first? Also, dinner countdown is always announced about 5 minutes before so they have time to wrap up activity. Rule at our house is that you have to come to the table and participate in grace. If you aren't hungry, you may then be excused without actually eating. Since there is no force to stay forever, I've never had a child refuse to come when asked. I suppose if it did happen, I would take child by hand and lead to table.

Hanging clothes: Assuming that I haven't created obstacles to getting this done (hanger out of reach, bar to high, no actual space to hang it...), I would ask nicely once. No other activity would be permitted until it was done, but "Please hang up your coat" generally gets it taken care of. Well, more like "please put laundry in hamper" since we rarely wear coats here. This one would definitely not be a big priority for me though.

Jumping: Fix underlying problem -- jumping is fun and good exercise. We bought mini tramp and could then say "Please jump on tramp, not on bed. Jumping on the bed damages matress." I have been known to catch child mid-jump and deposit (gently) on tramp instead of bed.

Hitting/kicking: Absolutely unacceptable in our house and top priority for me. Child would be removed to bedroom until "calm and ready to play nicely". No arguments, child returned to room until calm, even if some force is necessary. Explanation to child is "You need a time and place to calm down where you can't hurt people. I need to keep everyone safe" Note: this is not the strategy I would take for a toddler -- child here is school aged. At the same time, probably increase attention and one-on-one interaction with child when he is being nice.

Oh goodness, I think I just wrote a novel. Maybe I better get some work done now?


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lazy Gardens* 
Child does not get juice - that's a reward for spilling milk. Child is retrieved from the TV watching and handed a clean-up rag and told to clean up the mess.

Child is informed that deliberately wasting food is not allowed and that child's meal will be over each time it happens ... abuse the food, the food is removed and child can try again at the next meal.

Abuse a toy, toy is removed and disposed of. Toy does not get replaced.

Child doesn't have to come to table, but child will not get fed until the next meal ... if you save the meal you reward the behavior.

Child loses coat for a couple of days, even if it means not playing outside and going to school cold. Any possession that is being abused is removed from the abuser for a day or two.

Mom takes the bed away because child is abusing it. Child can sleep on the floor for a week.

Ignore the name calling ... any attention is rewarding.

If he hits younger brother, impose the declared penalty ... decide what favorite activity he will lose and inform him of it, then enforce it consistently.

Remove the child from the family setting for a while, and tell child that child can rejoin the group when child feels that child can refrain from hitting and kicking.

Also, consider getting martial arts training for child - much of this aggression can be channeled into the dojo where it will be handled appropriately. If child loses control in judo class, the practice partner can handle it ... any loss of concentration and focus usually ends up with child on the floor (unhurt) wondering what happened.

I don't think any of your suggestions constitute gentle disciple. They are punitive and (IMO) cruel -- taking a child's bed away for a week and have them sleep on the floor for jumping on it? What does that teach a child? That they are not worthy of having a bed? That they are not loved? Have you actually tried these suggestions on your child/ren? I would be interested to know the results.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

To the OP I don't believe that consequences actually work, and I highly recommend reading Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control by Helen T Forbes, I actually prefer her second book.


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## falafala (Sep 16, 2008)

Great suggestions! I found that they all gave me some new ideas for my own DS.
Thanks
Alicia


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## Lazy Gardens (Dec 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
I don't think any of your suggestions constitute gentle disciple. They are punitive and (IMO) cruel -- taking a child's bed away for a week and have them sleep on the floor for jumping on it? What does that teach a child? That they are not worthy of having a bed? That they are not loved? Have you actually tried these suggestions on your child/ren? I would be interested to know the results.

Punitive and cruel? What is cruel about "_if you abuse it, you lose it_" consequences? Will you wait until they are 16 and wrecked the family car to apply that lesson? Waste family resources replacing damaged items? With possessions comes responsibility for their care.

What is abusive about letting a child choose whether to come to the table and eat or not? Giving the child the autonomy of deciding whether or not they are hungry is empowering, not abusive. The child has to face the reality that meals are served on a schedule when making this decision, of course, but learning to adapt to the necessities of schedules and the needs of the family is a learning experience.

I had to apply these consequences late in their lives to stepchildren ... they weren't terribly happy at first, but life in the household was a lot calmer when they realized that there were inescapable consequences for failing to care for their possessions and not coming to the dinner table. No replacements for the favorite shirt that went moldy in the hamper because they forgot to do laundry or the CD that got warped beyond playing because they left it lying on the dashboard - just like it would be after they left home. No short-order cooking ... if they didn't want to participate in meal planning, they ate what was planned by others, if they didn't come when breakfast or dinner was served they went hungry until the next meal, or they spent their allowance on pizza deliveries.

One of the children is working on her PhD, one is an engineer, and the third is finishing a BS in Physics ... none are under psychiatric care, uses illegal drugs, or have criminal records.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Lazy Garden, you are free to discipline how you feel fit, but what I take exception to is posting these suggestions on this board as they are are punitive and not gentle. I notice you didn't defend the sleeping on the floor for a week as punishment for jumping on the bed. How could that possible be a fitting consequence for a five year old child? It sounds like something out of a Dickens novel.

I am glad this system worked for you and hope you have a wonderful relationship with your stepchildren. Personally, I prefer to treat my children with a bit more kindness.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Helping children learn better behavior is always a two-pronged thing for me. I deal with specific issues (such as you describe) but I also make sure that I am not contributing to the problem or that circumstances aren't contributing to the problem. So, in addition to taking direct steps, if child, or children, are uncooperative a lot, I will always "run the checklist" in my mind to see if our home is off-kilter in general. Then I will work both on discipline for specific issues as well as whatever broader issues come up.

So, I would ask myself:
* Child getting enough sleep? Am *I* getting enough sleep to be an effective mommy?
* Regular healthy meals/snacks offered at appropriate intervals to child? Am *I* eating correctly? Is everyone drinking enough water?
* Child getting enough exercise, playtime, outdoor time? Am I? Does child need sport or some other organized way to burn energy?
* Major stressors/transitions that might be throwing people off their game? Do I need to make allowances for environmental things that are causing issues? I'd still deal with issues, but maybe with greater tolerance than otherwise.
* Am I using proper transitation cues?
* Am I modelling the behavior I expect from the kids? I catch myself forgetting to say "please" and "thank you" and sounding impatient and not answering quickly all the time. If I can't do it, I certainly can't expect the kids to!
* Are my expectations reasonable for my specific child given his age/personality/situation or am I letting myself get caught up in other's opinions or comments? Am I doing something reflexively, e.g. just because my mother did it?

In general I try to use natural consequences when possible, logical when natural aren't going to be practical. My rule of thumb is that if I can't explain it to child in 1 sentence at his level, I have the wrong approach or the wrong expectation. I ask myself "Is this really a rule I need or is there an easier way?" all the time.

With that in mind, for your specifics I would:

Spilled milk in anger: Wouldn't ever happen at our house. Kids are in charge of his own drinks, and we mostly drink only water away from meal times. He would have gotten himself water or juice and power struggle would have been avoided. Since they were 2 both kids have had free access to food and drink -- I don't get in the middle of it at all. They know where their drinks and snacks are and taking care of themselves is their responsibility. If things are spilled and not cleaned up, there is no other activity until it is taken care of, with explanation "Its not safe, people can slip. Its your responsibility to clean up after yourself". Demanding instead of asking is met with silence and no action. Thus "Get me juice" would get no response at all from me, beyond perhaps a raised eyebrow.

Thrown toy. Assuming this was an anger response, toy would be thrown away without comment. It would absolutely not be replaced. If thrown for "fun", would still be tossed without replacement but with a more sympathy. Throwing things is "violent" to me, so I would deal with this one as a priority.

Dinner: In our house, first one to the table gets to pick grace, so mostly they both race for the table. Maybe you can find an incentive to encourage him to come? Assuming that grace won't work for you, maybe he gets to pick the opening topic of conversation? Serve himself first? Also, dinner countdown is always announced about 5 minutes before so they have time to wrap up activity. Rule at our house is that you have to come to the table and participate in grace. If you aren't hungry, you may then be excused without actually eating. Since there is no force to stay forever, I've never had a child refuse to come when asked. I suppose if it did happen, I would take child by hand and lead to table.

Hanging clothes: Assuming that I haven't created obstacles to getting this done (hanger out of reach, bar to high, no actual space to hang it...), I would ask nicely once. No other activity would be permitted until it was done, but "Please hang up your coat" generally gets it taken care of. Well, more like "please put laundry in hamper" since we rarely wear coats here. This one would definitely not be a big priority for me though.

Jumping: Fix underlying problem -- jumping is fun and good exercise. We bought mini tramp and could then say "Please jump on tramp, not on bed. Jumping on the bed damages matress." I have been known to catch child mid-jump and deposit (gently) on tramp instead of bed.

Hitting/kicking: Absolutely unacceptable in our house and top priority for me. Child would be removed to bedroom until "calm and ready to play nicely". No arguments, child returned to room until calm, even if some force is necessary. Explanation to child is "You need a time and place to calm down where you can't hurt people. I need to keep everyone safe" Note: this is not the strategy I would take for a toddler -- child here is school aged. At the same time, probably increase attention and one-on-one interaction with child when he is being nice.

Oh goodness, I think I just wrote a novel. Maybe I better get some work done now?









: Excellent advice.

I would also prioritize these things. For me - hitting/name calling and turning off the TV would be priorities. Next I'd do coming to sit for a few minutes at the table while we eat dinner. Picking up after yourself would come next. And since I allow my kids to jump on their beds, I'd put that last. (We also have a mini trampoline that we do get out).


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## Elizabeth2008 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lazy Gardens* 
Punitive and cruel? What is cruel about "_if you abuse it, you lose it_" consequences? Will you wait until they are 16 and wrecked the family car to apply that lesson? Waste family resources replacing damaged items? With possessions comes responsibility for their care.

.


I agree with the other poster, I thought your responses were not at all in proprotion to the "offenses". Make a 5 yo sleep on the floor for a week for jumping on the bed (something to them that is nothing more than innocent fun)? That's punitive and downright mean.

Also, IMO, I don't think the number of college degrees an individual has in any way correlates with happiness. You are welcome to your views, but why offer them on a board designed for people who want to practice gentle discipline?


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
To the OP I don't believe that consequences actually work, and I highly recommend reading Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control by Helen T Forbes, I actually prefer her second book.

I checked out her sight and copied this little tid bit because it seemed really helpful.

*Responding vs. Reacting - So the next time your child becomes defiant, talks back, or is
simply "ugly" to you, work to be in a place not to react to the behavior, but respond to your
child. Respond to your child in an open way-open to meeting him in his heart and helping
him understand the overload of feelings that are driving the behaviors. He doesn't need a
consequence or another parental directive at that moment; he just needs you to be present
with him. As your children learn to respond back to you through the parent-child
relationship, they won't have the need to communicate through negative behaviors anymore.
You'll both have more energy for each other, building a relationship that will last a lifetime.*

I love this frame of mind...responding...open...to meet in his heart...be present...understand his overload of feelings.

I don't have any advice accept that the OP did ask for "natural consequences". Some are responding with logical consequences and or punitive methods. Otherwise, I am getting a lot of help from this thread, too.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeybum* 
(DS is 5) WWYD?

1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv...

*He wouldn't be getting any juice, and he wouldn't be watching tv.*

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?)

*Toy goes in garbage. If it's a constant thing, then he gets a whole lot less toys.*

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family).

*This is a personal one - we would probably tell them that if they won't come to the table, then they need to go play quietly in their room. Once I clear the dishes away I won't be making anymore food. There's the fridge, and once we begin bedtime no snacks are happening. If being at the table is really important to you, then I'd ask him how he'd like to solve it - does he want to help in a certain way? Does he want to play 20 Questions? Does he want to tell a story about his day? What would make it more fun for him?*

4) Child refuses to hang up coat when he gets home, throws it and boots in to the corner.

*When we come in the house, we take off our shoes and wash our hands. Nothing else happens until this is done, and my kids know it and do it without even thinking.*

5) Child jumps on the bed continually after repeated requests to stop, repeated explanations of why jumping on the bed is not acceptable and after attempts at redirection.

*We let our kids jump on the bed, but if you don't and he won't stop, then I'd pick him up and move him elsewhere. I have found that the less I repeat myself the better. I say it once, maybe twice, and then step in to stop it. Kids like to jump, and some kids NEED to jump, so I'd provide some opportunity for this somehow.*

6) Child hits younger brother (2), laughs and says "ha ha, I hurt you", or calls family member names. Ignores parent when parents tell him that this hurts the person's feelings.

*"If you can't be here without hurting us, then you need to go play in your room until you think you can."*

7) Child hits, kicks or otherwise intentionally hurts parent or younger sibling because he didn't get his way, or something didn't go his way.

*"You may not hurt me or your sibling. I understand you are upset - it's very hard to deal with disappointment sometimes, but it is never okay to hurt us." If it was a constant thing, I'd be on the ready for it, and physically stop him.*



These are all abbreviated responses, and I think a lot of it comes down to the deeper issue of there being some need that isn't being met. In our house, when there are behavior issues, they almost always stem from one of the following: Someone is tired, someone is hungry, someone needs to go run around outside, or mommy has been kind of bitchy that day.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

It sounds to me like your little guy needs a bit more connection with you, along with firm but loving guidance. In every disciplinary situation I think the first thing to do is bring the child close and ask them what is making them feel so angry/sad/etc, but still deal with the issue and help them find a better path -- for example, the spilled milk I would deal with (on a good day







) by helping them clean it up while I gently talked to them about more appropriate behavior -- honestly, kids don't want to act like this, it really sounds to me like he's hurting a bit, and I don't say that to make you feel guilty, because I think we need to re-establish connection with our kids on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis or they can get really out of sorts.

I don't use punishment or consequences of any kind, I just try to help my kids deal with whatever nasty feelings are making them act up, and it works beautifully. my kids are certainly no angels, but they want to and try to do the right thing as much as they can, and are open to help figuring it out when they can't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
I checked out her sight and copied this little tid bit because it seemed really helpful.

*Responding vs. Reacting - So the next time your child becomes defiant, talks back, or is
simply "ugly" to you, work to be in a place not to react to the behavior, but respond to your
child. Respond to your child in an open way-open to meeting him in his heart and helping
him understand the overload of feelings that are driving the behaviors. He doesn't need a
consequence or another parental directive at that moment; he just needs you to be present
with him. As your children learn to respond back to you through the parent-child
relationship, they won't have the need to communicate through negative behaviors anymore.
You'll both have more energy for each other, building a relationship that will last a lifetime.*

I love this frame of mind...responding...open...to meet in his heart...be present...understand his overload of feelings.


this is lovely, thanks so much for posting it! now if I could just get my kids to react this way to _each other_, we'd be golden!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

1) Child intentionally spills milk on the floor because he's mad, he wanted juice instead. I tell him that he needs to clean up the milk on the floor that he spilled, and I will get him some juice, if he asks politely. He yells "get me juice!", does not clean up milk, splashes hands in milk making a bigger mess, then runs down the hall to watch tv...
Like another poster said, I wouldn't let him do anything else until the milk was cleaned up. I would not give him a different drink if he spilled the one he didn't want.

Quote:

2) Child throws toy across room, it breaks and cannot be fixed. (Throw toy in garbage? Say anything about it or just throw it out quietly?)
Depending on the toy, I would either let him know that it had to be thrown away because it was broken or he would have chores to do to work off the cost of replacing the toy. Most of the toys here belong to all the children, so throwing it away would hurt everyone.

Quote:

3) Child will not come to the table for dinner. (Do I leave the dinner on the table, eventually put it in fridge, only allow him to eat that if he is hungry later? It's not just about eating, it's about following the rules and spending time with his family).
He could either sit on the couch in the living room until dinner was over or go to bed. We all sit together here at dinnertime. If he was hungry later, he could have an apple or a sandwich, but not the dinner.

Quote:

Child loses coat for a couple of days, even if it means not playing outside and going to school cold. Any possession that is being abused is removed from the abuser for a day or two
Absolutely not. For starters, not hanging a coat up is hardly abusing it. That's defiintely misuse of the word abuse. And being cold for days is not a fair trade off for not hanging up a jacket.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 

this is lovely, thanks so much for posting it! now if I could just get my kids to react this way to _each other_, we'd be golden!









They will in time if you keep doing it! FWIW, my son's school is utilizing Beyond Consequences as its discipline model and they are currently coming up with a set of guidelines to help the children when their behavior becomes "unacceptable" both in the classroom and with other children. We are lucky that Helen Forbes lives in our city, she is actually my neighbor, and two mothers at the school, who happen to be therapists that work with children with behavioral issues have been through her training. We also have a parent support group that meets weekly. I promise you it does work!


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

oh I absolutely agree that it does work, (not to produce perfect children, but nothing can do that!) but there is so much going on with a sibling dynamic (especially with one incredibly sensitive child who seems to want to take out his frustrations on his sister -- not physically, just irritatingly







) that I do fear it will take years to get there... someday though!


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## Toolip (Mar 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
They will in time if you keep doing it! FWIW, my son's school is utilizing Beyond Consequences as its discipline model and they are currently coming up with a set of guidelines to help the children when their behavior becomes "unacceptable" both in the classroom and with other children. We are lucky that Helen Forbes lives in our city, she is actually my neighbor, and two mothers at the school, who happen to be therapists that work with children with behavioral issues have been through her training. We also have a parent support group that meets weekly. I promise you it does work!

WOW! that's AWESOME!


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

Staple the coat up on the wall. My grandpa did that when my mom's room was out of control with clothes all over the place and from then-on, they were hung up.


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## wdube (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaRenee* 
Staple the coat up on the wall. My grandpa did that when my mom's room was out of control with clothes all over the place and from then-on, they were hung up.

Wow! I think this is totally disrespectful. How does this show consideration for personal property and build trust between parent and child? Would you suggest the same if it was her DH's coat on the floor?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JessicaRenee* 
Staple the coat up on the wall. My grandpa did that when my mom's room was out of control with clothes all over the place and from then-on, they were hung up.

This seems like a completely "cut off your nose to spite your face" sort of approach. One of the very basic facts we all live with is that kids learn more by what we do than what we say. So this demonstrates what, exactly? That its OK to put holes in the wall, that it is OK to put holes in clothes. By extension, that it is OK not to respect property, exactly the opposite of the lesson the OP wants to impart. And since its also humiliating, by extension it teaches that it is OK to mock/disrespect people. Again, not a lesson that you want kids to learn.

For me, this is a classic example of "think about what your actions say" before you DO anything. Which is, of course, one of the very basic concepts we want our children to learn to do in all circumstances of life.


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## catters (Nov 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 

*I don't use punishment or consequences of any kind, I just try to help my kids deal with whatever nasty feelings are making them act up, and it works beautifully.* my kids are certainly no angels, but they want to and try to do the right thing as much as they can, and are open to help figuring it out when they can't.

this is lovely, thanks so much for posting it! now if I could just get my kids to react this way to _each other_, we'd be golden!










Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
They will in time if you keep doing it! FWIW, my son's school is utilizing Beyond Consequences as its discipline model and they are currently coming up with a set of guidelines to help the children when their behavior becomes "unacceptable" both in the classroom and with other children. We are lucky that Helen Forbes lives in our city, she is actually my neighbor, and two mothers at the school, who happen to be therapists that work with children with behavioral issues have been through her training. We also have a parent support group that meets weekly. I promise you it does work!

I'm not trying to be snarky here at all. I still don't understand "no consequences". So, if child spilled milk in anger, would I clean it up for them but ask why they did it then sort of talk through it? Is the idea that they wouldn't spill milk anymore if the underlying problem was addressed. But what if it was something that happened to them that had nothing to do with me. Like a child upset them at school or the playground that day and they were mad, so came home, threw milk, demanded juice as sort of a way to have some control. Obviously we can't "act out" whenever we get upset like this, even if there is someone there to then share why we are upset. Am I making sense? Am I missing the point?

What about with hitting or harming a younger sibling? I only ask because I am about to have two children and although DS is only 18 months old and he's not truly "disciplined" and I TRULY believe in modeling and that children learn best from watching us; I live in a world with consequences, so how do we teach our children that their actions will have consequences? For example, today DS and I were having milk in the kitchen and he spilled some by playing with the straw (it was one of those Horizon milk containers) and dumping the milk out on the floor. He obviously didn't do anything in anger and I know he was just playing with the straw, so I just handed him a towel and he happily started to clean it up with me (I obviously helped). I said, "Oops, you spilled your milk, now we have to clean it up". Did I handle that right?! Isn't cleaning up the milk a consequence of having spilled it?

I've searched the forum and found a lot of different thoughts on this but am really still confused! I have ordered the book "Unconditional Parenting" and have started "How to talk so kids will listen..." and was given "The Discipline Book". I'm not a big fan of "parenting books" though, but I do find that my natural inclination is to become angry when things are obviously done on purpose or when it seems like I am not being listened to at all. I think this is due to my mother's tendency to yell at us as children and although it worked, I don't want my children remembering me as a chronic yeller. Right? So, I'm down with a little direction although I do believe a little has to come from instinct.


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