# People who feel they "have" to intervene



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Hi, I'm hoping to get a wide variety of perspectives on the best ways to deal with this issue.

We've been attending a new church for about six weeks. We'd been out of church for a while, and the primary catalyst for our long non-attendance, and for the many theological changes we've been making, has been the lack-of-respect for children that we were encountering among many religious people.

But we are feeling a need for community, and don't want to keep getting offended and moving on.

My 4-year-old's Sunday School teacher seems concerned that I'm not properly establishing my authority with my child. I've told this teacher and the other children's workers that dd wants everyone to call her "Baby" right now (she's been wanting this for several months now, and it upsets her if anyone tries to call her anything else).

I feel sure that she won't want to be addressed as "Baby" forever, and I look forward to the day when she chooses a "regular" name to be addressed by, whether it's one of her given names, or some other name that she chooses.

But for the time being, I just call her Baby. I believe in addressing people however they want to be addressed, so long as they aren't wanting to go by "Butt-head" or some sort of profanity.

So, anyhow, the children's workers have acted pretty cool about it up 'til recently. I've been going to Sunday School and children's chapel with dd all this time, to help her adjust to the new people and new situations.

Then Sunday before last, dd's Sunday School teacher offered to stay and help dd with chapel, so that I could finally get to attend an entire church service (when I stay with the kids, we don't go into the adult service until time to take communion toward the end).

She promised she'd get me if dd wanted me, and dd was comfortable so I went on to enjoy church. Later, at home, dd told me that she didn't like her teacher, and that next time she wanted me to stay with her, because after I left her teacher started telling her, "You're not a baby," and addressing her by the name that I'd previously mentioned was dd's nickname 'til she started wanting to be called "Baby."

I felt rather miffed that this woman would try to pull something like this the moment she got me "out of the way." Though I realized she probably thought she was being helpful. I meant to say something the following Sunday, but then we overslept and missed church.

I did mention something to the Children's Director when she called me this past Saturday, and said I thought the woman meant well but it really wasn't helpful for building dd's trust. Then on Sunday we got a late start again, and didn't make it until after church, just in time for the rehearsal for the Christmas pageant that both my girls are in.

I said hi to dd's S.S. teacher, and she was standing by me whe I had to explain to another adult that dd wants everyone to call her "Baby" right now. Then she asked me, "Do you mind if WE call her (legal name)?" And I said I really didn't want people pushing this, and that she is four and she's not going to want to be "Baby" forever.

And the teacher said that HER problem wasn't that dd wanted to be "called" Baby -- but that dd was actually saying she WAS a baby -- and that was why she had felt compelled to talk with dd and explain to her that she WASN'T a baby ...

And I'm standing there still not getting what the big deal is, she is four, she KNOWS there is a difference between her and the little people being carried around who can't walk or talk yet. Even if she says she is a horse I see no need to argue the point.

And I think it's kind of dumb to argue the point, as if you just HAVE to be "the one" to persuade a child THIS MINUTE that she's not a horse, or else she'll go through all her life confused, and neighing, and trying to eat grass and mate with farm animals ...

But I didn't want to tell this woman "You're an idiot" -- so I just repeated that I really don't want the issue being pushed, and she kind of said okay, but didn't seem exactly "satisfied."

I know there's this sort of ignorance everywhere you go -- so I guess I just want some insights about the best way to stick up for my daugher and still be gracious. Thanks for any and all insights.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

I'd just say it's a friends and family nickname, like the character in Dirty Dancing.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I'm assuming that your dd is not actually wanting to be treated or is acting like a baby... she's not talking hard-to-understand baby talk or asking to be carried around. This is just a "nickname" that has come about. I would have more than just a passing conversation with the SS worker and just flat out tell her that right now, your dd's nickname is "Baby" and that's how she is to be addressed.

If the worker refuses to use the nickname, then I'd start deliberately calling her the wrong name. If her name is Mary, call her Sue all the time. After she corrects you, explain to her that if she wants to use a name for your dd that is not what dd wants to use, then it must mean that names are irrelevant and you can call the worker anything you want. Harsh, but maybe that's what she needs to understand. There's a lot of meaning in a name. It's why they are so important. They aren't irrelevant. Good luck to you.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Were there other children around when your dd was saying she is a baby and has your dd's babyish behavior been really out of place and affecting those other children? Sometimes children who act really immature for their age drain the teacher's ability to interact with other children and that isn't fair to those children. I could see her commenting on the behavior if that was the case. If this is the case, then I think you should talk to this lady about calling her the name she wants to be called, but not accepting radically immature behavior. If she doesn't act babyish or if her behavior doesn't affect other children around her all that much, then I think you should just continue to insist that she be called by the nickname she wants to be called by and continue to say she will get over it eventually.

I do think you should worry about your child if she has been reverting to baby behavior for several months. Is there a lot of stress in the house right now? Has your dd experienced something she is having a hard time coping with? I may be completely wrong, but you mentioned that you really need a community right now and I know that when I feel like that it is usually because I am stressed out and need to be around other people who care. Could your dd be reacting to whatever is making you feel under so much pressure that you are reaching out to a new community?

When my dd feels to much pressure she starts acting like a cat; she crawls, meows, and wants to be carried while she speaks in only cat. She did this for almost a year after my divorce because I thought of it as a phase and was really stressed out myself and having a hard time dealing with a very difficult three year old. Now when she does this I can pull her out of being a cat in a few days at most by spending lots of time giving her cuddles, working on rebuilding our relationship, and addressing the things that are stressing both of us out. I think reaching out for a community is a great first step, but are there other things that are causing stress?


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Do you like the Sunday School teacher in other areas?? Is this the only thing that bugs you about her? Do you like the church otherwise?

It sounds to me like you and your daughter may need you to stay in the nursery a little longer to ascertain whether it is a good fit.

That being said, and I mean this _gently_:

For the most part I expect other adults to keep their mouth shut about anything relating to "guidance" and my children. There are a few exceptions -and teachers (including Sunday School teachers) fall into the exception. To a degree, it is their job to offer guidance -and if you do not agree with their underlying beliefs in general- then your child should not be in their class.

Good luck mama!

kathy


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:

And I think it's kind of dumb to argue the point, as if you just HAVE to be "the one" to persuade a child THIS MINUTE that she's not a horse, or else she'll go through all her life confused, and neighing, and trying to eat grass and mate with farm animals








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I think you should go on a tirade and include this! Maybe she'll get the point.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
Were there other children around when your dd was saying she is a baby and has your dd's babyish behavior been really out of place and affecting those other children?

So far, other children haven't seemed to be affected by my dd's chosen nickname. Sometimes they'll ask why I call her Baby -- and I just say that's what she wants to be called right now, and they say Oh and just go on with their playing.

Quote:

Sometimes children who act really immature for their age drain the teacher's ability to interact with other children and that isn't fair to those children.
She seems to act pretty much like the other children, and plays really wonderfully with other children her age.

She IS very much on the active side. Which is one reason why I've been staying to help, because I think it would be kind of overwhelming to deal with dd, and also have other small children to deal with.

The only reason I went on to adult church that one Sunday, was that this teacher was offering to basically stay and take my place caring for my dd. I really couldn't imagine leaving dd with an adult who had an entire class to deal with.

She can be a real handful -- not because she's trying to be babyish, but because if she gets bored she impulsively does stuff to liven up the class, and the other little ones tend to join her and they all run amok together.

One thing I like about this church, is their responsiveness to our unique family. It seems that they were often just putting all the little kids in chapel with the older kids, and expecting them to learn to sit more (or at least they started this after one of the teachers quit a short time ago).

But when we started coming, they started just having them all together for a short time, and then taking the littles off to another room to play.

And maybe it didn't all "start" with us. I just know that the first time or two that we came, they had them all, big and little, in one group, and I was just taking dd out when she needed to move around and play more. Then they started accommodating ALL of the little kids more.

Quote:

I think reaching out for a community is a great first step, but are there other things that are causing stress?
While we certainly have our fair share of stress, and dh is unemployed at the moment (and I stay home), I honestly think she just likes being called "Baby" right now. It's possible it might help her with some stress.









She does like thinking of herself as a baby -- but in group settings she is playing and interacting with the other kids like a normal 4yo kid.

Her speech may seem babyish -- we've been going to speech therapy and she's made leaps and bounds, and is much more understandable than she was several months ago. And she likes having her communications understood -- so I honestly don't think that any mispronunciations are intentional on her part.

Again, I DO think dealing with her would be a strain for anyone who's trying to work with a whole group of children. This is why I'm there to help, to avoid causing added stress to the kind people who give of themselves so graciously every Sunday.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

For me, in a case like this, I would leave it to my child to negotiate. I might way once or twice that we were calling her "baby" right now and make sure I did so within ear shot of the teacher. But for me, if my kid really wanted to be called that, I wouldn't do the insisting for her. I would leave it to her to negotiate with the teacher. I might give her tips, hey - you can let them know that you prefer to be called "X" right now but I would leave it to her. Maybe it's just thing your child wants from you.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Then she asked me, "Do you mind if WE call her (legal name)?"

"Yes I do. In fact, I've been meaning to mention that it was very wrong of you to undermine my authority as her parent and call her 'nickname'. It really hurt my trust in you that you did so."

Okay, more graciously, "hi, you seem concerned that my dd thinks she actually *is* a baby. She's 4 years old, she knows the difference between kids and babies, just like she knows the difference between people and dogs, or people and horses. If her pretend-play disrupts the class or keeps her from doing necessary work, then I want you to come get me. I hope that relieves your mind. Do you have any other concerns?"


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Do you like the Sunday School teacher in other areas?? Is this the only thing that bugs you about her?

I wouldn't say that I DISlike her. I think she is a nice and well-meaning person. She's a lot younger than me -- maybe late 20's (I'm 45), and seems to have gone straight from teacher's college to parenting. She is also a fulltime schoolteacher, and her 2 children are around 6 and 4 I think, and of course are in their schools all day while she teaches.

They are both in Sunday School class with her and she's pretty affectionate with them, and has a good relationship with all of the children. But is also big on laying out her expectations, and expecting children (especially her own) to rise to them. Dd has enjoyed her classes so far. This teacher is engaging and prepared with the storytime, and then after that they have a playtime.

Dd actually gets along quite well in her S.S. class since it's never boring ... it's the chapel that she sometimes gets rambunctious in, especially in periods where the kids are sitting there waiting for adults to get started.

Which is why when they encouraged me to go on to church that one day, I did make sure that they were going to be splitting up as usual for the little kids to go play. And also that they'd get me if dd wanted me.

Quote:

Do you like the church otherwise?
Yes. And I feel that overall they're the most respectful of children, of any church I've been to so far.

Quote:

It sounds to me like you and your daughter may need you to stay in the nursery a little longer to ascertain whether it is a good fit.
I agree!

Quote:

That being said, and I mean this _gently_:

For the most part I expect other adults to keep their mouth shut about anything relating to "guidance" and my children. There are a few exceptions -and teachers (including Sunday School teachers) fall into the exception. To a degree, it is their job to offer guidance -and if you do not agree with their underlying beliefs in general- then your child should not be in their class.
I can see your point here. With my older dd (now 9) I went with her alot, too. And didn't leave her until she and I both felt comfortable with the situation. Now that she's 9 (we homeschool), we talk over her experiences in the various activities she's part of, and I'm basically her sounding-board as she figures out whether she, overall, enjoys an activity enough to want to stay with it, or not.

At least with my older dd, she is feeling such a strong need to branch out and get more connected with others outside our family -- and I honestly find a whole lot more children's leaders who think differently from me than who think like me.

So I just give her the opportunity to weigh out what she doesn't like against what she does like about any given activity, and make her own choice.

I'm not sure if my 4yo will be needing the same degree of outside-connections as she grows, but at this time she does seem pretty extraverted. At this time, I'll just keep going to stuff with her ... but at some point she may just need to evaluate activities and make her choices just as my older dd does.

It all depends on her needs.

Quote:

Good luck mama!

kathy
Thank you!

And I am really appreciating your, and everyone's, thoughtful advice. Thank you all!


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## overseasmomma (Mar 7, 2009)

Does your dd want other kids to call her baby as well? Or just adults? I imagine it would be rather hard for other kids to remember calling her baby or it might take the tone of teasing if not explained properly. I think One Girl raises some good points. Dd1 (3 yrs) goes through a baby phase quite regularly these days and it mean she needs extra love and attention. It started after the twins were born and she will actually crawl on the floor, drool on purpose and toddle around like she is just learing how to walk. It drives me mad.

If this sounds somewhat similar to what your dd is doing, and the teacher doesn't want to use the name baby, could she give your Dd a little 'extra' attention or cuddles or whatever she needs until your dd grows out of it? To be honest, it would be hard for me to call an older child 'baby' around my kids without confusing them. But, that's cause I like to explain things like so and so is a baby so you can't play with small toys that she can choke on. Or, so and so is a baby and can't talk yet so that's why she cries when she wants something. Is the name baby something that can be causing the teacher some difficulty in leading the class? Is it confusing for the other kids? Just some thoughts as it sounds to me like you are already sticking up for your daughter just fine but maybe if you look at it from another angle and explain to your dd that not everyone will call her by her name baby and they might have valid reasons for it.

ETA: oops, i guess i should read the whole thread before i post a reply


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
For me, in a case like this, I would leave it to my child to negotiate. I might way once or twice that we were calling her "baby" right now and make sure I did so within ear shot of the teacher. But for me, if my kid really wanted to be called that, I wouldn't do the insisting for her. I would leave it to her to negotiate with the teacher. I might give her tips, hey - you can let them know that you prefer to be called "X" right now but I would leave it to her. Maybe it's just thing your child wants from you.

Yes, I would stay out of it for the most part. Children are resilient, and can deal with little frustrations. We can support them in dealing without stepping in and changing the situation for them.

It is really important to me that my dc have relationships with people I trust (extended family, family friends, church members, etc). For me, part of fostering those relationships is letting go of some control, and letting my dc experience other personalities and approaches. I try to sit back and watch my dc, looking for signs that I really need to step in, but otherwise letting them negotiate their own relationship.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, it doesn't *seem* like a big deal to call a child what they want to be called. In high school even, I had teachers ask us on day one how we preferred to be addressed. However, I'm also a believer that, as long as adults are generally respectful and appropriate with children, it's okay to let children learn to deal with OTHER adults' expectations for them. Your DD may be called "Baby" everywhere else, but in the church class, it's different. That also seems to me to be no big deal, especially since you've expressed that DD seems to enjoy the class and have a good relationship with the teacher.

I don't expect other adults to fill my *mom* shoes, kwim? Not everyone has to do as I do, and my kids will learn that people have different boundaries. I don't see a problem with that.


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## hippiemommaof4 (Mar 31, 2008)

Oops wrong thread lol sorry


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
For me, in a case like this, I would leave it to my child to negotiate. I might way once or twice that we were calling her "baby" right now and make sure I did so within ear shot of the teacher. But for me, if my kid really wanted to be called that, I wouldn't do the insisting for her. I would leave it to her to negotiate with the teacher. I might give her tips, hey - you can let them know that you prefer to be called "X" right now but I would leave it to her. Maybe it's just thing your child wants from you.

No, this is actually how she wants to be addressed *all of the time*, not just with me.

I think she's too young for me to expect her to negotiate-it-out herself with adults. An old example comes to mind.

A few years back, when my oldest was 4, she was spending some time with my mother, who disagreed with our plans to homeschool, and was trying to persuade dd that she would miss out on so much fun if she couldn't persuade us to enroll her in kindergarten when she was 5.

I told Mom to stop doing this, and also explained to dd our reasons for homeschooling, and dd felt much happier after I named off many of her friends who were homeschoolers. And I just told her that sometimes grownups disagree, and Grammy disagrees with us and that's okay.

So she was cool. But then she was playing with her older cousins one day at Mom's, while I was resting in another part of the house due to pregnancy nausea. And suddenly dd came to me, very upset. She said, "I just started getting up in Grammy's face and screaming at her." And she said she was also licking her hand and rubbing spit on everyone.

I wondered why and she just said she was sorry for doing it. So we went up to talk to everyone, and it quickly became clear what they'd been up to (my mom had seen this as a great moment to have my niece and nephew, who liked school, to tell dd about their experiences).

I realized it was wrong for me to trust my mother alone with my child. It is just too much pressure on small children, to expect them to stand up to adult manipulations.

Too often they can end up getting "in trouble," because they don't know how to handle it "appropriately" (according to the disrespectful adult's standards of appropriateness) -- and just start licking everyone in desparation.

But I still appreciate you sharing your thoughts, I just want to express how I think this can set children up for making themselves the subject of unfair adult disapproval. Because some adults feel entitled to be shown respect by children, even when they themselves are being disrespectful. So they don't fight (or negotiate) fairly.


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## MissLotus (Nov 2, 2005)

It would annoy me that the teacher took it into her own hands to deal with, before talking to you first. But if I must be honest, I'd feel funny calling someone else's kid "Baby". It sounds like an endearment, that should come from those closest to her.

If that's really her nickname and will be for the foreseeable future and you are truly into calling her that and you don't feel it's just a phase, then introduce her initially as "Baby". But otherwise, what if she changes her mind every week... it would be hard for people that don't know her well to keep up with her latest nickname. I don't see anything wrong with people she doesn't know that well using her given name (unless she totally hates her name), and family/close friends using the endearments.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

You mentioned that the teacher said she was acting like a baby. If she is a school teacher then she has probably had kids with speech issues and that probably isn't why she said that. It may be that when you left your child really did start acting like an actual baby, perhaps because she feels comfortable enough to behave the same way she behaves at home when she is there. Generally kids don't act like they would at home unless they are very comfortable and secure where they are, which is why the first month of school is so calm and peaceful and the second is horrible. I think that it is good that she feels comfrotable enough with the teacher to act like she would at home and that she can get along without you now as she adjusts to the teachers expectations. You mention that the teacher has a lot of good qualities that make you comfortable with having your dd in the class, so I think you should trust that she can help your dd adjust to class expectations. Did you ask the teacher what your dd did that made her think that she was acting like a baby? Maybe you could tell her what you do at home when your dd acts in those ways.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

My dd went through a long phase of wanting to be called certain names...for instance after reading Charlotte's Web she wanted to be called Fern. It lasted almost a year and she was serious about it.
Then she went through another long phase of being Nim, after we read Nim's Island.

Finally now, she can read a story and like it without actually needing to change her name. So I understand and I agree it will not last forever.
And yes, I know a girl who pretended to be a horse ALL the time (not my dd) and she outgrew that eventually too.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

overseasmomma -- from my observations, this doesn't seem to be all that confusing, or all that much of an issue, for the other children in dd's age-group. They'll sometimes ask why dd's called "Baby" -- but I just say that's what she likes right now, and they don't seem overly-stressed about it or anything.

It's kind of like how, when she used to prefer wearing diapers (which she suddenly quit doing just before turning 4 1/2 a few months ago), sometimes a child would ask me why dd wore a diaper "like a baby." I'd just say that she knows how to use the potty but prefers going in her diaper right now ... and they'd say Oh and just go on with their playing.

I imagine that if they have baby brothers and sisters, they still understand that they're less mature and can choke on small items. I don't think knowing one child their age who's called "Baby," is going to totally warp their understanding of what a baby really is.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I realized it was wrong for me to trust my mother alone with my child. It is just too much pressure on small children, to expect them to stand up to adult manipulations..

That's why I specified "people I trust".

There is a huge difference between someone manipulating your dc and undermining your parenting, and a teacher who wants to use given names only in their classroom. I think your dc will most likely be able to adjust to the teacher calling her by her "proper" name 1 hour a week.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
You mentioned that the teacher said she was acting like a baby.

No, the teacher said dd was SAYING "I am a baby," and the teacher said this was what concerned her. She said it wouldn't have bothered her to "call" dd a baby, so long as dd understood that she wasn't "really" a baby -- but since dd said, "I am a baby," she felt like she had to make her understand that she wasn't.

Since I wasn't there, I have no idea but what dd MAY have been demonstrating some babyish behaviors. But this wasn't what the teacher expressed concern about.

If dd really was acting like a baby, to the point where it was causing problems with the rest of the class, then they certainly knew where to find me. And knew that I was more than willing to come deal with my own child -- so they could have come and got me.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

I am a Sunday School teacher (3 year olds).

I would honestly feel fairly uncomfortable calling another person's kid who I'd just met "Baby" for a couple of reasons. It feels like an inappropriate endearment from an adult that isn't all that close to the kid. I personally hate it when people call their kids baby when they're not babies. I realize that the second is all me and others don't feel this way.

I'd probably ask once if it was ok if I called your dd by her name but if you let me know that you really wanted me to call her baby, I guess I would though it would feel really weird to me.

I also most likely wouldn't let my kid insist on being called by a name not her own on a regular basis. Any version of one of her 2 given names or a combination of the 2, no problem. She can pretend to be someone else and I'll call her that name sometimes, but not on a full time basis. But that's my call with my dd. You get to decide for your own kids.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
No, the teacher said dd was SAYING "I am a baby," and the teacher said this was what concerned her. She said it wouldn't have bothered her to "call" dd a baby, so long as dd understood that she wasn't "really" a baby -- but since dd said, "I am a baby," she felt like she had to make her understand that she wasn't.

Since I wasn't there, I have no idea but what dd MAY have been demonstrating some babyish behaviors. But this wasn't what the teacher expressed concern about.
*
If dd really was acting like a baby, to the point where it was causing problems with the rest of the class, then they certainly knew where to find me. And knew that I was more than willing to come deal with my own child -- so they could have come and got me*.

Not sure, but is it possible that she was being babyish and when the teacher addressed the fact that your dd wasn't a baby, your dd stopped the behavior so they didn't need to come get you? But then, since your dd was unhappy about the incident she expressed that to you by telling you the teacher was mean.

I know I always do my best to try and solve whatever problem before calling a parent.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
You mention that the teacher has a lot of good qualities that make you comfortable with having your dd in the class, so I think you should trust that she can help your dd adjust to class expectations.

I certainly think that the teacher has good qualities, and I'm comfortable having dd in her class when I'm with her.

I had previously thought that although we had some differences in our parenting, I could still trust her alone with dd because she seemed to be respecting my parenting-choices.

I could sense that this (calling my child what she wanted) was a choice that she wouldn't make with her own children -- but since she'd had no problem calling dd Baby when I was in there, I didn't realize it would suddenly be a boundary-issue when I was gone.

I realize that it was another poster who brought up the issue that different people have different boundaries. I guess where this throws me, is that I SO STRONGLY believe in respecting other's boundaries when it comes to their own space and their own persons.

This is actually why I call people whatever they want to be called, so long as they're not encroaching on MY boundaries by expecting me to use profanity or something.

When we're in an activity that's being led by someone else, that is their space and we need to follow their rules. That's why if dd was wanting to run around during storytime, I'd take her out where she could be active without ruining the story for others.

But I don't see how it's encroaching on someone else's space or personal boundaries, for me to choose the name I want to be called by. This would be kind of like ME saying that dd was trespassing on MY personal boundaries by deciding what she wanted to wear. No, we are talking about her body, not mine -- does this make sense?

Now, I agree with the poster who said that it would sure be a lot to expect everyone to keep up if dd was changing her name every week or something.

If this were the case, then I'd tell dd that I'LL do my best to keep up with her new names -- but that other people really can't remember all that so we'd better just have one name that people can ALWAYS call you -- and let ME call you your special names that you change every few days.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristyDi* 
I would honestly feel fairly uncomfortable calling another person's kid who I'd just met "Baby" for a couple of reasons. It feels like an inappropriate endearment from an adult that isn't all that close to the kid...

I'd probably ask once if it was ok if I called your dd by her name but if you let me know that you really wanted me to call her baby, I guess I would though it would feel really weird to me.

Fair enough. I thought it was a little weird the first time I met a child named Precious ... but like you I got past it since it was really none of my business.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristyDi* 
Not sure, but is it possible that she was being babyish and when the teacher addressed the fact that your dd wasn't a baby, your dd stopped the behavior so they didn't need to come get you?

Totally possible. But the way she expressed it to me, was that her concern was over my child seeming to *believe* that she was a baby ... which came across to me as, "If a child tells me she's a horse and/or acts like a horse, then I need to argue the point with her because otherwise she'll never realize the difference between a human and a horse."


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

Once, a kid that I know went by "Batman" for a significant period of time (like, a year I think.)

There was a girl at our church that spent a few months refusing to acknowledge you if you didn't address her as "Baby Spiderman."


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyactsofcharity* 
Once, a kid that I know went by "Batman" for a significant period of time (like, a year I think.)

There was a girl at our church that spent a few months refusing to acknowledge you if you didn't address her as "Baby Spiderman."

That's cute.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't see any problem with calling your dd Baby if that is what she wants.

The current hoo-ha about home education here in the UK and the potential change in responsibility for education from the parent to the state has had em re-thinking how I approach educational settings.

I feel that anyone who I leave my child with in any educational setting is acting on my behalf because at that moment they can do something that I can't do. They are not my child's parent: they are providing a service for me, so if my kid wants to be called Baby they will call her Baby and that is the end of it.

My grandma was called Beauty as a child and was even known as Beaut or Beauty in her work life and social life right up until she was almost 70 and moved to a new city where she decided to use her second name, Rachel.

An elderly friend of mine is known as Auntie Babe to absolutely everyone who knows her and she has been Babe for decades.

I think your situations is partly about people attaching too much to a word and the modern belief that being a baby is a bad state which should be left behind swiftly at all costs in order to foster independence.

I'd call your dd Baby without any hesitation or criticism.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
I think your situations is partly about people attaching too much to a word and the modern belief that being a baby is a bad state which should be left behind swiftly at all costs in order to foster independence.

Yes, I guess in our current social climate where people worry about "babying" their 2-month-olds, it is a bit much for me to expect this to be treated as no-big-deal. So I will just stay with her, since apparently the only time that anyone has isssues with it, is when I am not there.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Fair enough. I thought it was a little weird the first time I met a child named Precious ... but like you I got past it since it was really none of my business.









Yes, but Precious may very well have been that child's given name. Weird names I can handle, but when people want to be called something odd, it's sometimes just uncomfortable, whether it should be or not. If a student walked into my class and said "hey, I'm called Orange Juice," after laughing, I'd probably still use their given name. I do know teachers who did not use nicknames *at all* when I was in school, even diminutive forms of full names. I don't go that far, but I do think perhaps it's the name "Baby" in particular that makes this woman feel odd about using it.

If I were teaching a SS class and calling another child Baby constantly (esp. when the kids knew that wasn't her name), I can see my DD being upset by me using an endearing term for another child. My DC comment on children who are "not babies" doing baby-ish things. We've had to discuss it several times, and this definitely would be one of them. You say the children don't mind, but it doesn't mean it hasn't come up when you're not there or for this woman at home explaining it again to her kids. While that doesn't make her "right," I also don't think it makes her a bad guy interfering with your parenting choices.

If she wants people to call her Baby, then I agree with a PP that you should introduce her that way. By saying, "this is Susan, but she prefers Baby," you seem to be opening the door to a choice in the matter.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
It's kind of like how, when she used to prefer wearing diapers (which she suddenly quit doing just before turning 4 1/2 a few months ago), sometimes a child would ask me why dd wore a diaper "like a baby." I'd just say that she knows how to use the potty but prefers going in her diaper right now ... and they'd say Oh and just go on with their playing.

Gently, may I suggest that perhaps there is something going on with your dd regarding her feelings of her place in the family, stress, etc? I don't think it's a normal thing for a 4YO to want to revert back to wearing diapers, especially when other kids ask about it (though, incidentally, why were you fielding these questions from other children and not your dd?). The Baby nickname itself I would hedge on with one of my children, but I cannot imagine allowing one of them to choose to wear diapers just because they felt like it. I'm not going back to changing diapers unless it's for a newborn or a gastrointestinal disorder. That's a pretty big step back in my book, and it is something that would bother me.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I think the teacher could probably handle calling her Baby for an hour.

However, I also think your daughter could probably handle being called by her given name for an hour as well. In a way I think you're not giving her the space to handle it.

For me I think I'd've just said to my daughter "Yeah, not everyone is willing to use nicknames" and leave it at that.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

As others have mentioned, perhaps the teacher is uncomfortable with the nickname because she sees it as overly familiar. I agree that it's perfectly within your DD's rights to state her calling of choice. But I think that boundaries and respect go both ways--and it's perfectly okay for the teacher to say, "You know, I don't feel comfortable with that. Can we think of a nickname together, one that you like and I'm comfortable with?"

Not only that, if your DD is insisting that she IS "a baby" and asking other people to validate it--well, even if she's in an adult-child interaction I think that's a bit much to expect everyone to go along with it. She's not a baby. I don't think the teacher should argue with her about it, but if she's uncomfortable stating a mistruth or doesn't find it fun to play along, I think it's acceptible to say, "I see that you are really enjoying the idea of being a baby." If it was demanded that the other person repeat that she was a baby, I know I personally would say, "I think it's great to pretend and play whatever you like, but I'm not comfortable with calling you that."

I honor the fact that you are willing to accomodate your daughter in whatever she would like to do in regards to this particular subject, including allowing her to choose to wear diapers when she wishes to. But gently I would suggest that many people (even child-respecting people) would draw the line earlier than you have, and that it's well within their rights to do so in their interactions with her.

I don't see your or your DD's request as "unreasonable", but I also think it's reasonable for any adult (or kid for that matter) to say, "I'm sorry, but I'm not comfortable doing that," as well.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C* 
For me, in a case like this, I would leave it to my child to negotiate. I might way once or twice that we were calling her "baby" right now and make sure I did so within ear shot of the teacher. But for me, if my kid really wanted to be called that, I wouldn't do the insisting for her. I would leave it to her to negotiate with the teacher. I might give her tips, hey - you can let them know that you prefer to be called "X" right now but I would leave it to her. Maybe it's just thing your child wants from you.

This is EXACTLY what I thought as I read your post. This is very good advice to think about!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
If she wants people to call her Baby, then I agree with a PP that you should introduce her that way. By saying, "this is Susan, but she prefers Baby," you seem to be opening the door to a choice in the matter.

Right. I actually never said, "this is _________, but she prefers Baby." I said straight up that she wants to be called Baby, and that's even how I signed her in on the roster, 'cause I figured it would be less confusing than having her legal name on the roster and then expecting everyone to disregard that and call her Baby.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Right. I actually never said, "this is _________, but she prefers Baby." I said straight up that she wants to be called Baby, and that's even how I signed her in on the roster, 'cause I figured it would be less confusing than having her legal name on the roster and then expecting everyone to disregard that and call her Baby.

Ah, okay. So did the teacher ask if that was her given name?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I don't think it's a normal thing for a 4YO to want to revert back to wearing diapers...

I don't know if THAT'S normal, but that certainly wasn't what happened with my dd. She didn't "go back." She'd been wearing diapers all along since she was a baby -- only sometimes at home she'd decide to pull off her diaper when she had to pee, and go in the potty.

She usually didn't want to use the potty, and usually resisted any reminders -- just every now and then she'd up and decide to go in the potty. Sometimes she'd do it several times in one day, but mostly not so often. And she still wanted to wear her diaper, and also refused to use the potty away from home, so diapers it was.

Then one day a few months ago, she announced that she didn't need diapers any more, and that was it. She went potty away from home and everything, and had hardly any accidents. Now she's been accident free for a couple of months now, except that one night a week ago she pee'd the bed.

I can just sense this about my daughter -- that until she decides she's ready for something, she won't do it. Then suddenly she's ready and she just moves on and that's that.

Quote:

...especially when other kids ask about it (though, incidentally, why were you fielding these questions from other children and not your dd?).
Because they were asking me and not dd, so I just matter-of-factly answered them and they'd go back to playing. The part about "She knows how to go" was more for any adults who might be listening, and getting concerned that there might be a medical problem. Not that it's anyone else's business -- I just chose to throw that one out there.

Quote:

The Baby nickname itself I would hedge on with one of my children, but I cannot imagine allowing one of them to choose to wear diapers just because they felt like it. I'm not going back to changing diapers unless it's for a newborn or a gastrointestinal disorder. That's a pretty big step back in my book, and it is something that would bother me.
That's fine. I certainly never expected anyone else to deal with the diapers.

And it sounds like, as others have suggested, I should just stay with her for the time being. Because it never became a problem until I wasn't there. So maybe as another poster said, dd was insisting that the woman repeat that she was a baby --

Though that seems unlikely since the woman just said dd was calling HERSELF a baby, not that she was demanding anything of anyone else. Still, I wasn't there so I must concede that it's possible.

And even the teacher said she had no problem calling dd baby -- she just was worried about dd's thought processes about the whole thing. So if I'm just there to make sure she isn't trying to force anyone to recite, "You are a baby," then I guess we're good to go.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Ah, okay. So did the teacher ask if that was her given name?

Oh, yes, I forgot to add that into the previous post. That's how she knew both her legal name and her previous nickname, becasue she asked me about it. She just never tried to use it until she got me to leave and go to adult church.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I think I'm going to have to vote with the people who say that I would be very uncomfortable calling someone else's child by such a personal nickname. Baby to me is two things: an infant, or a term of endearment usually used romantically.

As a former Sunday School teacher, I'd also like to throw in that it can be a tough job. Any teacher has to establish order in their class. This can be particularly hard for a Sunday School teacher, who only has the children for an hour a week, and so can't really build a relationship with the class the same way a school teacher can. There are also, to be totally blunt, far fewer resources and ways to deal with a discipline case, particularly since only having the kids for an hour a week means that you can't spend 45 minutes dealing with one child who needs extra attention. Having a child appear who wants to be called by an odd nickname and is exhibiting particularly immature behavior is just waving a giant red flag. And I trust you that your daughter is mature and wouldn't have been a problem, but the teacher didn't know that. Visions of the entire class either taunting her, or suddenly wanting to act like babies too, or her throwing an infant-like mock tantrum, or starting distracting and age-innapropriate behaviors probably ran right through her head. And I'm not saying that your daughter would have done these things: you know her, and say she wouldn't. But the teacher had no way to know that. All she knew was that she had to maintain order in her classroom, and my guess is that she thought that the easiest way to do that was to nip any potential baby-like behavior in the bud by using her real name.

But, personally, I would be uncomfortable with using Baby as a term of endearment for someone else's child who was not a baby. As I said, I only ever hear it used romantically. I would find it kind of creepy, to be totally honest, using it on a little girl. Maybe that's just my own issues.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

OK- Please know that I am *gently* saying all this but, here goes...

When you place your child with other people you cannot expect that they will be *you*. They may be *like* you, they may share many values, but they won't necessarily respond like you, they will have their own conversations, they will interpret things differently and they will have different approaches. But it does not necessarily mean they are wrong or bad (even if they do not do what you would do or believe that you would do it better).

Children are resillient, and really, they can benefit from many approaches and different people in their lives. There are many ways that may not be "as good" as yours, but it doesn't mean that they are so harmful that your child can't still enjoy or appreciate their time with them.

Honestly, it really doesn't sound like she was "waiting to get you out of the way" or disrespectful or anything. It sounds like to *her*, it was an unusual request she might not have agreed with entirely or truly understood your daughters perspective on. And it sounds like she may have had a conversation with your daughter about it that you did not hear word-for-word, that may have contained a misunderstanding but was not cruel or demeaning. Does this make her unfit to be a sunday school teacher? Not in my oppinion







.

In think sometimes in the name of "doing it all right", we prevent our children from having authentic relationships with other people who have the potential to be positively influential in their life. Kids are resillient and perceptive enough to be able to manage a variety of styles- some better than others- as long as they are not cruel or demeaning.

And while she doesn't need to "stand up" to the teacher, she can say "My name is Baby" with your encouragment and support (as in, next time, you plan that you both approach the teacher and your daughter says "Please call me Baby". You stand behind, smile, and nod and mouth silently "Thank you!" That really should be enough and is not confrontational. Then you say "Bye, Baby! See you later!").

At some point, we come to a choice. Do we allow our child to take the "risks" with other trusted and caring adults that might not do things quite our way and *maybe* suffer some minor consequences but also have the potential to have another loving and caring adult and another perspective in their lives?


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
It would annoy me that the teacher took it into her own hands to deal with, before talking to you first. But if I must be honest, I'd feel funny calling someone else's kid "Baby". It sounds like an endearment, that should come from those closest to her.

If that's really her nickname and will be for the foreseeable future and you are truly into calling her that and you don't feel it's just a phase, then introduce her initially as "Baby". But otherwise, what if she changes her mind every week... it would be hard for people that don't know her well to keep up with her latest nickname. I don't see anything wrong with people she doesn't know that well using her given name (unless she totally hates her name), and family/close friends using the endearments.

This.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

So, you guys have all been giving me lots of good food for thought. Right now I'm thinking that I'll just keep staying with dd, until such time as she and I both feel comfortable with her going on her own.

If it does so happen that this teacher or any chapel teachers suddenly spring it on me that they've suddenly decided that calling dd what she wants to be called violates their personal boundaries or their relationships with their children --

Then maybe dd and I will need to do something else during the times when that person is in charge. Or else maybe because I am there they can just address me and let me address dd.

I just have a feeling that it aint gonna be an issue forever. One day she'll decide she's not Baby anymore just as she decided she was done with diapers and that was it.

Thank you and of course additional advice is still welcome!


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think the teacher could probably handle calling her Baby for an hour.

However, I also think your daughter could probably handle being called by her given name for an hour as well. In a way I think you're not giving her the space to handle it.

For me I think I'd've just said to my daughter "Yeah, not everyone is willing to use nicknames" and leave it at that.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I don't expect other adults to fill my *mom* shoes, kwim? Not everyone has to do as I do, and my kids will learn that people have different boundaries. I don't see a problem with that.

I completely agree with this. Different adults do things differently. I've been in alot of teaching roles and I would go crazy trying to do the same things as the kids' parents.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
No, this is actually how she wants to be addressed *all of the time*, not just with me.

I think she's too young for me to expect her to negotiate-it-out herself with adults.

You might be doing your DD a disservice by underestimating her. I am constantly amazed at how much my 3yo can negotiate by herself. And it's really awesome to watch her confidence grow as she finds successful solutions to problems. And it's equally awesome to watch her character grow as she learns to deal with the fact that other adults have different rules and she's not always going to get what she wants.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
It's kind of like how, when she used to prefer wearing diapers (which she suddenly quit doing just before turning 4 1/2 a few months ago), sometimes a child would ask me why dd wore a diaper "like a baby." I'd just say that she knows how to use the potty but prefers going in her diaper right now ... and they'd say Oh and just go on with their playing.

Wow! You have far more patience than I do. Once my DD could pee in the potty at 18 months, we went diaper free. I can't imagine giving a 4.5yo a choice about where they pee.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
No, the teacher said dd was SAYING "I am a baby," and the teacher said this was what concerned her. She said it wouldn't have bothered her to "call" dd a baby, so long as dd understood that she wasn't "really" a baby -- but since dd said, "I am a baby," she felt like she had to make her understand that she wasn't.

I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

lach and alexsam -- I actually have several years of experience as an early childhood teacher and also as a children's church teacher, back before having my own family.

So, alexsam, I actually do understand about not expecting others to be me. I want people to be themselves -- I just don't leave my children in someone else's care without both my child and me being comfortable with it.

I had previously felt comfortable with the teacher, even though I could already see that she wasn't me and that she saw some things differently. Because when I was there, she seemed fine with calling dd what dd wanted to be called.

Apart from the first or second Sunday when she asked me about dd's legal names and any other nicknames, she never brought it up with me again. She just called her Baby.

During that discussion I had explained that dd got very upset if anyone tried to call her those other names, and said that I could tell that with dd it was best to just let her decide when she was ready to move on from being called Baby. And she dropped it. With me.

So it just kind of shocked me when the *very first time* I leave her alone with dd, she takes it up with her.

And I never ever said that I thought the woman was unfit to be a Sunday School teacher -- I just don't currently feel comfortable with leaving dd -- and though dd felt comfortable when I did it that one Sunday, it seemed to kind of break her trust in the woman when I left and suddenly she was insisting on calling her by the old nickname.

lach, I do understand all about how hard it can be to maintain order with a group of children, especially if one child is a lot less mature and needs more help and attention. That's why, since I know how rambunctious my dd can get, I always stayed with her because I knew it would be hard for one teacher by herself.

And I only left that one Sunday because this other woman essentially offered to take my place, and be an extra person, so I didn't feel staff would be overwhelmed. Plus they knew right where to find me if they needed me, and I've made it pretty obvious that I totally don't see it as a "bother" to come care for my child.

I would've LOVED more help like this when I was a children's church teacher (well, maybe not on the Sundays when I wasn't properly-prepared, LOL).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.

Wow, and it's surprising to me that it would be so important to you that your child would say, "I'm *pretending* to be a princess" -- you're saying that you would actually feel a need to correct her if she said "I AM a princess"???

This made me think of a comparison. If I were a S.S. teacher and you brought your dd to my class and said, "It's okay if my dd *pretends* to be an animal or something -- but please don't let her say 'I AM an animal' -- please make sure that she says "I am *pretending* ...' --"

I think I'd have to gently tell a parent who asked me to do that, that I just couldn't ... but of course I'd welcome her if she wanted to stay and personally tend to her daughter's semantics, so long as she didn't try to force it on the other kids, LOL ...

With this in mind, I'll be happy to stay with my dd, and even be a go-between for anyone who has a problem addressing her as "Baby." As I keep saying, this is such a short time in the overall scheme of things --

I actually think it'll be a lot shorter if everyone just leaves her *alone* about it.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Wow, and it's surprising to me that it would be so important to you that your child would say, "I'm *pretending* to be a princess" -- you're saying that you would actually feel a need to correct her if she said "I AM a princess"???

Yes. We do correct her. She rarely does it anymore. We value the truth in our house. We don't lie and we don't say things that aren't true. The most "truth bending" we do is to make sure things are age appropriate. Like we didn't tell DD that we euthanized our old cat when she was 2.5. We just told her that he died.

Quote:

This made me think of a comparison. If I were a S.S. teacher and you brought your dd to my class and said, "It's okay if my dd *pretends* to be an animal or something -- but please don't let her say 'I AM an animal' -- please make sure that she says "I am *pretending* ...' --"

I think I'd have to gently tell a parent who asked me to do that, that I just couldn't ... but of course I'd welcome her if she wanted to stay and personally tend to her daughter's semantics, so long as she didn't try to force it on the other kids, LOL ...
How is that any different from what the SS teacher did to your DD?

Quote:

With this in mind, I'll be happy to stay with my dd, and even be a go-between for anyone who has a problem addressing her as "Baby." As I keep saying, this is such a short time in the overall scheme of things --

I actually think it'll be a lot shorter if everyone just leaves her *alone* about it.








I don't quite see how you staying with her and catering to her request all day everyday is going to help her move on. Personally, I'd rather my child learn that the aren't hurt when called by their proper name once a week for an hour.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I've been thinking about this thread. My kids are comfortable being left with people they know and trust. It sounds like you and your 4 year old were comfortable giving this person a trial run, which she promptly failed by arguing with your dd about whether she was a baby. Now your 4 year old does not trust her enough to comfortably stay with her. So, you're back to square one.

Oh well. Nice try all around.

I know I'm always a bit bummed out when one of my kids has gotten the notion to stay with someone and it doesn't work out.

But my instincts tell me to trust them to know when it's a good idea for me to be there and when it's fine and dandy for me to go on my merry way.

And big congrats to your dd for the "so long to diapers" step!


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

I think you (the OP) are making WAY too big of a deal about this. Loosen the leash and let your kid handle her own.

If it was my kid, I would tell her "Friends and family can call you by your nickname. Strangers, school officials, day care workers, etc do not need to remember your special name-of-the-day."

What if your kid decides to change her name daily? Are you going to get all bent out of shape of well-meaning SS teacher mistakenly calls her "baby" when she was supposed to, in fact call her "kitty cat princess" for that day?

Really?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

You know your kid best. I have a child who decided that he was a cat much of the time, for the better part of a year. He has always been quirky, and people who didn't know him well didn't know how to deal with that. He was quite often simply much better off with me than with them and their "correcting" ways. I saw that, while he was resilient, that resilience would wear down after repeat exposure to people who wanted to change the essence of who he was in order to force him to be who they wanted him to be. I wanted to give him more tools and more time before he was forced into such a position. So I was very careful about who I left him with, and worked extra hard to make sure he would be respected for himself, not expected to fit into their box. It didn't last forever. He's 7 now (still quirky), and I can trust that he has the tools to protect himself and stand up for himself that he didn't have when he was younger. Trust yourself. Your daughter sounds like a very special girl.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
How is that any different from what the SS teacher did to your DD?

The teacher had been calling dd Baby, and had never expressed to me that she was unwilling to do it. Then I left and suddenly she wasn't okay with it -- or as she put it, she was okay so long as she knew that dd knew that she wasn't really a baby, or something to that effect.









Whereas if a mother left her child with me, and told me that she wanted me to correct her child if her child ever said, for example, "I am a dog" and make sure her child said, "I am *pretending* to be a dog" -- I wouldn't pretend to agree to her request, and then just do whatever the heck I wanted behind her back --

I would tell her that I just can't do that. But would welcome her to stay and correct her child herself all she wanted to.









So, all in all, I don't want to disrespect anybody's boundaries. Just as I'd be cool with a parent staying to police *her own child's* pretend play (but not any other child's) -- so I am cool with staying myself for as long as dd needs me.

And if someone has a personal boundary against calling dd what she wants to be called, I'm perfectly willing to act as the go-between. And of course I'm attentive and quick to deal with situations that come up anyway, which should minimize the times when anyone else might feel a need to address dd if they didn't want to.

Quote:

don't quite see how you staying with her and catering to her request all day everyday is going to help her move on. Personally, I'd rather my child learn that the aren't hurt when called by their proper name once a week for an hour.
I also got a little flack from others about my choice to let each of my dd's set the pace for her own toilet training. A couple warned me that they'd be in diapers "forever." But now neither of them is in diapers. Dd1 fully trained herself a couple of months after her 2nd birthday, and dd2, as I've said, did it instantaneously just before turning 4 1/2.

4 1/2 may seem exceedingly-late to some, but it was cool with me to avoid all the struggles so many mamas have to deal with -- and with both girls it was a case of just instantly deciding "no more diapers," and they were trained.

I realize that others make different choices -- I'm just responding to what you said about it "not helping" for me to "cater" to dd. Cause it sounds so similar to what I heard from others, before each girl just instantly decided to toilet-train.

I'm just finding that, at least with my own kids, letting them stay where they're at 'til their current need is filled, is the best way in the world of helping them move on.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I am a teacher for 4 and 5 year olds, so take what I say from that perspective









I do agree that it is odd that the teacher called her "Baby" while you were there then talked to your DD about it when you left. Strange.

Your church might have a policy against having full time helpers in the room. My church does. So, while it might be appreciated to have a Mom stay the whole time- they would have to go through a background check to be able to interact in a helping role with the other children. Crazy? Some might think so, but overall it is to protect everyone's children. I am on the committee at my church that overseas this, and I get lots of complaints about it. A parent is free to stay with their child if they wish, but if they go in to helping mode with other kids, it is not allowed. So I wanted to mention that so you didn't think they didn't want you there, etc. There could just be a legal reason why you aren't encouraged to stay and help









I personally would not feel comfortable addressing one of my student's as "Baby" and I am with them 40 hours a week. If that was their given name, I would have no choice, but as a nickname, it would make me uncomfortable. It would not be allowed at all in the public schools as a nickname- I used to work there too. I see a huge teasing issue here. Maybe not now, but eventually I see the other kids giving your DD a hard time about it. So perhaps the teacher was trying to keep that at bay.

I usually hear "I'm a puppy!", "I'm a Mommy", "I'm a Princess" in my class every day, and I think it is great to play pretend. But if one of my students asked me to call them "Puppy" or "Mommy" or "Princess" all the time, I would not do so. I feel that an adult figure in a church or school setting should be able to call your DD by her given name or another mutually agreed on nickname rather than one that might make them uncomfortable. I think it is okay if children know that everyone's boundaries need to be respected.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I've been thinking about this thread. My kids are comfortable being left with people they know and trust. It sounds like you and your 4 year old were comfortable giving this person a trial run, which she promptly failed by arguing with your dd about whether she was a baby. Now your 4 year old does not trust her enough to comfortably stay with her. So, you're back to square one.

Yes, this seems like an accurate assessment.










Quote:

Oh well. Nice try all around.

I know I'm always a bit bummed out when one of my kids has gotten the notion to stay with someone and it doesn't work out.
Yes, I was tentatively-excited at the thought that I might be able to start enjoying some church services again. But I know these years go by so fast, and having to wait a bit won't hurt me any.

Quote:

But my instincts tell me to trust them to know when it's a good idea for me to be there and when it's fine and dandy for me to go on my merry way.
Yes, that's my feeling about it -- I feel that she broke dd's and my personal trust. Which of course doesn't mean that she's not qualified to care for other people's kids. Just not mine at this time -- at least not without me there, too.

Quote:

And big congrats to your dd for the "so long to diapers" step!
Thank you! This has been such a wonderful affirmation to my instincts, 'cause there were times when I was the *only* one who believed in what I was doing -- well, I think my dd's have always believed in me, but I just mean those famous "others" who feel compelled to tell us mothers we're crazy.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thank you, lotusdebi, and thank you for sharing!

MayBaby2007 -- I already answered the question about daily name-changes up-thread. No, I wouldn't expect others to keep up if dd was always wanting to change her name. That isn't what's happening in this case -- but if it were -- then, as I said upthread, I'd tell dd that I'D try my best to keep up with all her new names, but others really can't so she needs to pick one name that everyone else can just ALWAYS call her.

Bunnyflakes, I'd have absolutely no problem with having them do a background check on me. Thus far they've expressed no problem with me being there, and on one occasion another visiting mom and me were the only adults in the playroom with the little ones -- though they also had a couple of young teen or preteen girls in there helping.

I'd already been coming for a few weeks by that time, so they seemed to feel they could trust me. And the director was thankful for my help. She has a hard time staffing her children's ministry, and I actually think I'll be asked to take more responsibility in the future.

So the urge for me to go enjoy service that one day, seemed to be more of a concern that I hadn't yet got to do that, and not that they were discouraging me from being there.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

You mentioned that you had told the SS teacher that your daughter would be very upset to not be called Baby, and that is why you don't call her by her given name/another name. Perhaps the SS teacher was trying to talk to your DD about this and find out if it really was that big of an issue (sometimes kids can be more finicky with a mom than with others). I agree that it doesn't sound like it came across well, but I am just saying that perhaps the teacher was just trying to see if it was truly important for your DD to be called Baby *by her* all the time. If that was the motive was it necessary? No. But it also would not have been a malicious/ behind your back type of thing.

I personally get the feeling of wanting to be there with my DD at Sunday School or other things like that because my DD is very reserved, and her feelings are hurt easily. I have found that for my DD, however, it really has been a great source of pride and growth for her to be in a small group with teachers we know/trust for an hour a week. I think that if you chose to encourage your daughter to be a part of the group independently, and if she then felt empowered and excited to do it, it could be a very good thing for her at this stage in life.

Having the teachers over for a meal/ getting to know them a bit outside of the Sunday morning time could be a very good way to build the relationship for your DD and help her to feel more excited about/confident with the other teacher. And you as well - after this "bump" in the road it might be nice for you to have more time and interaction with the teacher to get to know them better.

Tjej


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

OK- but instead of all this subversive, disrespectful, better-than-the-mom, "get her out of the way" stuff, what if the conversation with the teacher went like this:

"Why do they call you Baby?"
"Because I'm a Baby!"
"But you're not *really* a baby! (said with a smile and maybe a friendly silly nudge). Your name is Suzy! (or whatever) Don't you think Suzy is a nice name? I do! Maybe we can call you that too sometimes?"
"I guess..." (child goes off to play).

I mean, this may or may not be what happened, but is this a plausable scenario? I guess I'm saying it because there can be lots of ways things "go down" that are not what you may think first off and are not really "bad", just a misunderstanding that doesn't require hypervigilance, just a bit of attention.

However, I DO feel that child saying that she "doesn't like the teacher" at least deserves some recognition of that fact as well as some further exploration by the parents, so I'm not advocating for you to ignore it. Just maybe... take a deep breath and not be so hasty to think bad things







.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

Another thing I thought about- can you tell I can't sleep?







- is that if she calls one child by their preferred name, she will have to do it for all of them, which could go something like this..

*using my own classroom as an example*
So Bethany wants to be called Princess. I do it because it seems like no big deal at the time. Then David wants to be called Spiderman, because it is only fair if I am calling Bethany something else. Then Anna wants to be called Lucy and Jack wants to be called Sponge Bob and by that point I have no clue who I am talking to anymore







:


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## Lovin' It (Jun 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
I don't see any problem with calling your dd Baby if that is what she wants.

I think your situations is partly about people attaching too much to a word and the modern belief that being a baby is a bad state which should be left behind swiftly at all costs in order to foster independence.

I'd call your dd Baby without any hesitation or criticism.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
You mentioned that you had told the SS teacher that your daughter would be very upset to not be called Baby, and that is why you don't call her by her given name/another name. Perhaps the SS teacher was trying to talk to your DD about this and find out if it really was that big of an issue (sometimes kids can be more finicky with a mom than with others). I agree that it doesn't sound like it came across well, but I am just saying that perhaps the teacher was just trying to see if it was truly important for your DD to be called Baby *by her* all the time. If that was the motive was it necessary? No. But it also would not have been a malicious/ behind your back type of thing.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *alexsam* 
OK- but instead of all this subversive, disrespectful, better-than-the-mom, "get her out of the way" stuff, what if the conversation with the teacher went like this:

"Why do they call you Baby?"
"Because I'm a Baby!"
"But you're not *really* a baby! (said with a smile and maybe a friendly silly nudge). Your name is Suzy! (or whatever) Don't you think Suzy is a nice name? I do! Maybe we can call you that too sometimes?"
"I guess..." (child goes off to play).

I mean, this may or may not be what happened, but is this a plausable scenario? I guess I'm saying it because there can be lots of ways things "go down" that are not what you may think first off and are not really "bad", just a misunderstanding that doesn't require hypervigilance, just a bit of attention.

I really hope this was the case. If not, the problem here isn't the nickname. The problem is the woman said she was okay with it when she clearly was not. That's just dishonest. Even if she was okay with it initially and then after thinking about it and experienced calling her a nickname that made her uncomfortable, she should have revisited the conversation with *you*. Are people so afraid of confrontation that they can't express themselves honestly with an adult only with a non-threatening child? She was perfectly within her right to express to you that it crossed her boundaries, but she didn't do that. She didn't give you a chance to make a decision about respecting her boundaries, she made the decision for you.

But again, I really hope it was more like the posters I quoted above implied. It doesn't seem disrepectful if she was trying to gain a deeper understanding from your dd's perspective to adjust her personal comfort level.

As far as staying with your dd, what does she say about that? Personally I'd ask my dd if she wanted me to stay or if she was okay with me going to the adult service. And if she wanted me to stay, I would certainly do so.

I want to validate that you are not expecting anyone else to parent your child. I'm not sure how that came up. I didn't get that from reading your posts at all.

My job is to parent my children, not to defend how I do so.

This is for the diaper thing:
"It is the nature of the child to be dependent, and it is the nature of dependence to be outgrown. Begrudging dependency because it is not independence is like begrudging winter because it is not yet spring. Dependency blossoms into independence in its own time."

Peggy O'Mara

I hope it's okay to quote like that. I should find the rules on that, but if it's not I'm sure they'll let me know soon enough.


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## minkleaf (Nov 7, 2009)

Has anyone seen the movie Dirty Dancing? Jennifer Grey's character was called 'Baby' and she was in her teens.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Am I the only one who finds it suspicious that the teacher convinced Mammal_mia to leave her dd alone and as soon as she was out the way there's a problem with calling her dd 'baby'?

The "I'm worried she thinks she actually *is* a baby" thing is just backpedaling after being called out for ignoring the parent's wishes.

M_M's dd isn't crapping her pants, whining for bottles, or fake crying boo-hoo-boo-hoo-I'm-a-Baby-wah-wah. M_M didn't dump her on this woman. The woman ASKED her to leave her dd in her care. She'd seen M_M's dd before in the class, she knew what she was like. And if she couldn't handle it, she knew where M_M was and had been specifically told that it was okay to go get her.

Either M_M's dd was not being disruptive and there was no reason to make an issue of things, or she was being disruptive and M_M should have been pulled out of class to handle her.

It's so strange to me, in one thread we have people telling someone who takes care of a child for 9 hours a day that she shouldn't talk with his mom about why he's cranky because the mom might get offended and it's Her Child, and here it seems like everyone is saying that the teacher can't possibly be expected to treat the OP's child for an hour alone the way she treated the child for an hour while the OP was present.

If the teacher can't be expected to be the parent, then she also has no right to lecture the child about her choice of what to be called.

ETA: Of course, if the teacher was doing the exploring thing mentioned a couple of posts up, that's another story. Still merits having a chat with her and I think "you seem to have concerns about my dd's choice of nicknames, let's talk" would be a good way to start.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't quite see how you staying with her and catering to her request all day everyday is going to help her move on. Personally, I'd rather my child learn that the aren't hurt when called by their proper name once a week for an hour.

Well, yes, you have a child who responds well to continual correction. M_M's child does better with just waiting until she's ready for something and then she moves on with no fuss and bother.

You two have radically different children so advice to each other isn't going to be useful.







You would, however, be able to team up and give a nice broad perspective to other people who need help with parenting concerns.

What's good for the goose may be good for the gander, but kids aren't as homogeneous as geese.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.

This reminds me of the bit in Harry Potter 1 where he's talking about having a dream about a flying motorcycle and his uncle and aunt get angry and tell him off for talking about "unreal things".

You give your dd credit for being able to stand up for herself to adults, which is something adults can have trouble with, but you don't trust her to keep fantasy and reality separate, a skill that is right at her level, without continually watching her language?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Okay, maybe I'm off base here. I thought pretend play was a normal part of child development?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Okay, maybe I'm off base here. I thought pretend play was a normal part of child development?

Pretend play is, but isn't that some of the question here?

As for saying "I'm pretending to be..." rather than "I am...," we don't do that at our house. We're all pretty much free spirits, so we really encourage pretend play and trust our children to know that they're not actually whatever they're pretending to be. At DS's school, however, his teacher really insists that the children say they're pretending rather than that they "are" something. I asked about it because it just seemed odd, and she said a lot of children really don't understand the difference. :sigh That's not *my* experience, but perhaps it is for other children, especially those who watch television and play video games a lot.

MM, I would have a frank conversation with the woman. Eventually, I assume, you will want to go to a service, and you and your DD need to be able to trust the people who are teaching the class. Ask her but not when she's watching other children at play practice. Have breakfast together or go out for coffee or call her up. Get a real feel for it. As a teacher, she also may have some insight that could be useful.

I suppose I'm a bit confused about the whole thing. This is what I understand. You brought your DD in and said, "this is Baby." The woman at some point asked you about her legal name, and you explained that your DD has a legal name but wants to be called Baby. Okay. SS teacher complies.

When you leave 6 weeks later, the teacher, who has been calling your DD Baby, decides to talk to your DD about it. She told you that your DD was saying she *was* a baby, and she wanted to make sure she understood it.

To me, those are 2 different issues. One is that your DD wants to be called Baby, and the teacher complied. The second is that at some point, your DD said that she *is* a baby. She's not. Coupled with wanted to be called Baby, I can see how the teacher may have responded to that with making sure your DD understood that she's not a baby.

It's not the same as pretending to be a horse, in fact, because babies and preschoolers are both people. I can see how, under these circumstances, the teacher may feel she needs to make sure your DD understands her developmental stage. And, perhaps it didn't come up when you were there. As I understand it, you very rarely, if ever, have your children out of your sight. I know that children often act differently (not better or worse, just different) when their parents aren't in the room, probably because of familiarity. My own hyper DS apparently is very calm at school. So isn't it conceivable that your DD started saying she was a baby after you left and that the teacher was responding to that comment, rather than "going behind your back" to challenge your dd's naming decision?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
This reminds me of the bit in Harry Potter 1 where he's talking about having a dream about a flying motorcycle and his uncle and aunt get angry and tell him off for talking about "unreal things".

You give your dd credit for being able to stand up for herself to adults, which is something adults can have trouble with, *but you don't trust her to keep fantasy and reality separate, a skill that is right at her level,* without continually watching her language?

That's actually a skill not gained until more like 8 or 9 years old. Some kids may seem to gain it earlier, but it's not developmentally appropriate for a child to really begin to understand the difference between fantasy and reality until 8 or 9. That's around the same time when children can actually understand about lying. Isn't 8 the age of confirmation in the Catholic church for this reason.

My 3yo may seem to have a decent grasp about when she's pretending or not, but I still think it's important to set the foundation up so that it's clear.


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## daytripper75 (Jul 29, 2003)

What I don't see is how arguing with a lady who wants to call a child by their given name is helpful to the child. It seems to me that in this world we all run into people who are contrary and that this would be an excellent introduction to that for the child. Yes, it's very annoying to be called a name that you don't want to be called (YOU HEAR THAT GUY AT WORK WHO CONTINUALLY CALLS ME NANCY? MY NAME IS NOT NANCY!) but I don't see how making a big deal about it is anything other than a lesson to the child that an adult is always going to be poised to swoop in and fix things.
She wants to be called Baby and the lady wants to call her by her given name. It's annoying but I also think it's an excellent lesson for her to learn about standing up for herself (Please call me Baby, not firstname.) and that people have free wills and will do as they like. It's irritating, not harmful.
*shrugs*


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daytripper75* 
What I don't see is how arguing with a lady who wants to call a child by their given name is helpful to the child.

I think people are trying to provide some perspective that it might not be reasonable to expect the teacher to call the child "Baby".

Sometimes when there is conflict between a child and outside sources it's because the outside source is being unreasonable. And then that's where the focus should be in trying to change something. Other times it's because the child is making an unreasonable request. So it would make sense to try to solve the conflict by working with the child.

I think much more progress would be made in this situation by taking a moment to teach the child that not every adult is going to be willing to cater to requests like not using the child's given name and using a very personal nickname instead.


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## daytripper75 (Jul 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I think much more progress would be made in this situation by taking a moment to teach the child that not every adult is going to be willing to cater to requests like not using the child's given name and using a very personal nickname instead.

This was my point too. Thank you for saying it with more eloquence than I could muster.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
That's actually a skill not gained until more like 8 or 9 years old. Some kids may seem to gain it earlier, but it's not developmentally appropriate for a child to really begin to understand the difference between fantasy and reality until 8 or 9. That's around the same time when children can actually understand about lying. Isn't 8 the age of confirmation in the Catholic church for this reason.

My 3yo may seem to have a decent grasp about when she's pretending or not, but I still think it's important to set the foundation up so that it's clear.

7 or 8 is the age for first reconciliation and communion, not confirmation. Confirmation is usually around 14.

This is the difference between Montessori (no fantasy play allowed before 7) and Waldorf (no reality play allowed before 7) to oversimplify.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I say this with complete sincerity. This discussion reminds me so profoundly of the conversations I had when my first was 4 and we were contemplating using building school.

We made the different choice to homeschool based in very large part on the kinds of comments being made about the nature of children and their need to adjust to adults.

Thank you so much for sharing your honest opinions. It's been really refreshing to remember.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
This is the difference between Montessori (not fantasy play allowed before 7) and Waldorf (no reality play allowed before 7) to oversimplify.

I'd like to strongly disagree that Montessori does not allow fantasy play before age 7. Maria Montessori had absolutely nothing against fantasy play, and indeed in her original program she had the usual lineup of baby dolls and so forth. She noticed that these toys went unplayed with, and that children naturally gravitated towards useful work. In Montessori infant and toddler programs, fantasy play is very much encouraged: my daughter's Toddler House program has dolls, a play kitchen, and other fantasy-type toys. In Montessori preschool programs, while the three hour block for work is a given, most schools that have a longer day also include plenty of time for free, imaginative play.

And just to agree with JL83, I happen to have a book right next to me (about TV and kids which is pretty pro-TV, and that's kind of bugging me, so I'm just saying it doesn't really have a horse in this race) that cites one study that says that some kids as old as 6th grade have trouble differentiating between fantastical and real creatures. The book also cites other research backing up what JL83 says, about understanding real/make believe as a developmental step that doesn't even _begin_ to happen until age 4. Before that, it's all the same.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I should add, that I also don't believe that children can understand what lying is before 8 or 9 either. With DD we will say things like "You wish that you'd already taken your plate to the kitchen" when we ask her if she had and she says "yes" when in fact she hasn't. We don't even call it lying in my family because we don't think that small children have that capacity. They say things they wish were true. And I think that they end up believing that it is true.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I say this with complete sincerity. This discussion reminds me so profoundly of the conversations I had when my first was 4 and we were contemplating using building school.

We made the different choice to homeschool based in very large part on the kinds of comments being made about the nature of children and their need to adjust to adults.

Thank you so much for sharing your honest opinions. It's been really refreshing to remember.

I don't think that children _need_ to adjust to adults (certainly not all the time), but they _can_ adjust to adults sometimes. My comments on this thread were influenced by these comments by the op:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
We've been attending a new church for about six weeks. We'd been out of church for a while, and the primary catalyst for our long non-attendance, and for the many theological changes we've been making, has been the lack-of-respect for children that we were encountering among many religious people.

But we are feeling a need for community, and don't want to keep getting offended and moving on.
.

In community, ime, there is some give and take. The people in my dc's lives aren't perfect, but we still value our relationships. I've found that, if I empathize with my kids, but encourage them to either speak up or overlook some stuff and move on (with _little_ stuff--not big stuff), they usually can and get past it. It's a 2-way street, and the adults do their share of overlooking stuff, too! If we confronted on every small issue, or walked away, we would be missing out on a lot of great relationships.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Wow, and it's surprising to me that it would be so important to you that your child would say, "I'm *pretending* to be a princess" -- you're saying that you would actually feel a need to correct her if she said "I AM a princess"???

This made me think of a comparison. If I were a S.S. teacher and you brought your dd to my class and said, "It's okay if my dd *pretends* to be an animal or something -- but please don't let her say 'I AM an animal' -- please make sure that she says "I am *pretending* ...' --"

I think I'd have to gently tell a parent who asked me to do that, that I just couldn't ... but of course I'd welcome her if she wanted to stay and personally tend to her daughter's semantics, so long as she didn't try to force it on the other kids, LOL ...

With this in mind, I'll be happy to stay with my dd, and even be a go-between for anyone who has a problem addressing her as "Baby." As I keep saying, this is such a short time in the overall scheme of things --

I actually think it'll be a lot shorter if everyone just leaves her *alone* about it.









I agree. I have one child with a very vivid imagination. I wouldn't dream of pulling him out of his playing to demand that he specify that he was only pretending. At that moment, he is NOT pretending...He IS. It's a sign of intelligence to be able to really get into that imaginary world and I'm happy when he's so into his play that he becomes whatever he imagines.

I haven't finished page 4, but this thread has been absolutely amazing so far. I love hearing all of the different takes on this issue. I'm more with Mammal-Mama though. Kids at 4 are in a big stage of growth and it can be overwhelming. If they want to rest comfortably in one stage for awhile and are able to verbalize that they need this time, then I have to believe that it's a good thing. Sometimes I need something that is totally illogical and when I ask for it, I expect to be respected that it might not make sense, but I need it, for whatever reason.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I'd like to strongly disagree that Montessori does not allow fantasy play before age 7.

Yup, oversimplifiying, as I said. If anyone wants more info on Montessori and early fantasy play, here's a link with lots: http://www.montessorimom.com/fantasy...lity-learning/


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I don't think that children _need_ to adjust to adults (certainly not all the time), but they _can_ adjust to adults sometimes. My comments on this thread were influenced by these comments by the op:

I think the point is that an important life skill is to learn how to adjust to other people. It makes like alot easier to realize that you can't control what other people do 100% of the time. Sometimes it sucks. But that doesn't make it less true. I know a couple people who try to make the world bend to them every single time and they are miserable. Please don't get me wrong (not talking to the person I quoted), I don't think that we should adjust every time. But I think that most of the time when everyone gives a little, things go more smoothly and people end up happier.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
I agree. I have one child with a very vivid imagination. I wouldn't dream of pulling him out of his playing to demand that he specify that he was only pretending. *At that moment, he is NOT pretending...He IS.* It's a sign of intelligence to be able to really get into that imaginary world and I'm happy when he's so into his play that he becomes whatever he imagines.

But, at least you're admitting that he gets lost between fantasy and reality. That's really my point. We've chosen to try to acknowledge the boundary, not as a way to limit or prevent our child from pretend play, but as a way to hopefully make the distinction easier.

And my DD does do a whole lot of imaginative play, I can't really imagine her doing more. Pretty much everything she does is pretend right now. So, I don't think our approach has hurt her any.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
If we confronted on every small issue, or walked away, we would be missing out on a lot of great relationships.

I agree. I wouldn't confront or walk away. I'd just stay with my kid until she felt comfortable again and feel bad for the adult who used the first opportunity alone with my kid to correct her on whether she was a baby rather than get to know her without me there.

As I said, my response would be good try all around and back to providing my kid an opportunity to build trust with other adults who respect them.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JollyGG* 
You say she understands the difference. You claim that it's just a name and not necessarily wanting to act like a baby. Yet she chooses to wear diapers (if I'm reading the timeline right) combined with the name issue and you don't feel she is acting babyish? And can't understand why someone else would seed it that way?

So basically your child causes chaos if she doesn't get exactly her way and your solution to this is to cater to her every whim and desire. And you can't understand why someone else would be unwilling to do so?

And once again you think the solution to inappropriate behavior is to give her her way in all things and make excuses for her? And you don't understand why your mother thought your older child would benefit from some different adult interaction in addition to your own?

Your solution in all of these situation seems to be to blame the other party for your childs behaviors and rarely expect your child to learn how to work and live with others. That doesn't sound like respecting your child. You don't seem to respect them enough to expect appropriate behavior from them. Reading your posts it seems that what you mean by respecting children is giving them there own way in all things.

Mabey I'm misunderstanding but that is what I'm reading.

It also seems like you speak for your children frequently rather than allowing them to speak for themselves.

I'll admit as a teacher in that situation I would take the opportunity to speak to the child themselves and see how they felt about their nickname and how they felt about their real name. Basically I'd want to know if the child's psyc was really so fragile that mom felt it was necessary to cater to them that much, hover that much, and answer for them so frequently. And really if they even really objected to their given name as much as mom claimed.

If I can speak for MM for a moment....correct me if I'm wrong, MM. M-M lives in the South and has very different opinions of child-rearing than most of her peers. Her daughter would be unable to adequately defend herself in most of these situations because children are not to defend themselves in this area. Children are to call everyone Ma'am and Sir and to defer to all adults in a respectful and obedient manner. That's the normal expectation in that area. I was raised there, so I know. So, it's hard not to step in and protect your child when you know that your child is ill-equiped to deal with people who will most likely not be open to her seemingly unreasonable requests. Most adults in this area would find a child like that in need of a "whoopin'" The best way for MM to teach her child to deal with these people is to model. The child will see her mother demand respect for the child and the child will learn to demand respect for herself.

Even when I go there to visit, I have my guard up. I have to pay attention to the interactions between my child and other adults. Stop teasing short, stop any tickling short, any unreasonable scolding for age appropriate behavior. I can imagine living there, it would be even harder.

I don't know if MM is going overboard with it or not and only she knows that. There is a point where assertiveness becomes aggressiveness. But this example of wanting to be called a different name seems like a mother defending her child's childhood. My own mother (who lives in this area) expected me to tell my child "suck it up." for just about anything he cried about. She loves me and him, she just thinks that if you don't teach them to "suck it up." they'll be whiney and incapable.


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Okay, I've been thinking about this thread.

What it basically comes down to is basically a she said/he said thing. Except there isn't really a second person, because even if you did ask your 4yo exactly what happened, kids that age are notoriously unreliable. As the tangential discussion on this thread is about, kids that age can't understand the line between fantasy and reality, and that travels over to the answer about "what did you do today?" Anyone who has actually sent their child to preschool knows that there's about a 50% chance that what the child said happened actually happened.

So basically, there's just a she said. The Sunday School teacher told you about a conversation, and you don't believe her. But the story itself is rather vague, and you don't even entirely know the teacher's entire side.

Before making snap judgments about the teacher, I would try to find out exactly what happened, and _then_ decide whether to be as annoyed as you are. But I find it a little odd that you are so quick to accuse the Sunday School teacher of lying, when you don't really know exactly what happened, or why it happened. Several people have made up situations about why the teacher might have said what she did, keeping in mind that we don't even really know what she said. But we could solve the entire situation if you just asked her exactly how the conversation went, and why it came up in the first place.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JollyGG* 
You say she understands the difference...as much as mom claimed.

Just wanted to say that I agree with this entire comment (it was long, so I edited







)


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'd just stay with my kid until she felt comfortable again .

I would do that, too. But I'd really downplay the name-issue with my dd. "She called you ____, huh? Hmmm. Did you do anything fun?"

I stayed with my dd in all classes at age 4 (my dd's strong preference). But I tried _really hard_ to sit back, bite my tongue, and let the teacher and dd interact directly, without my help/interference, always watching dd for signs of truly needing help. With my sensitive kiddo, believing that she needed extra help dealing with little stuff, and that she couldn't handle a situation the way the other kids could, became a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a fine line to walk, though.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

sunmama....I know we've "talked" about this before. I was a fly on the wall as well. But I think the leaders of the classes tended to be more careful of things like not making a big issue out of something one of the kids said just because of someone being there.

dd1 loved a class at that age. I consistently found that class leaders who did not want me in the room did not interact as well with dd as those that were fine with it. Just anectdotal, but there it is.

My didn't want to be left dd at 4, 5, 6 and 7 is now my work the party, play in the hot tub, talk to all the grownups, take the physics class with the 12 year old 9 year old.

But when she ran into trouble with a teacher using imo weird class control techniques last semester and the teacher wouldn't let my dp observe because "then all the parents would want to come in" my dd walked away from that as fast as her feet would carry her.

The self-fulfilling prophecy for us was that dd has really good instincts for healthy and unhealthy learning environments.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
But when she ran into trouble with a teacher using imo weird class control techniques last semester and the teacher wouldn't let my dp observe because "then all the parents would want to come in" my dd walked away from that as fast as her feet would carry her.

I have _no_ faith in teachers (doctors/dentists/etc) who won't let parents observe.

Quote:

The self-fulfilling prophecy for us was that dd has really good instincts for healthy and unhealthy learning environments.










My dd's meter was definitely hypersensitive and leading her astray....but we ended up with the same result after building up her confidence and experience level a bit


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
IMy dd's meter was definitely hypersensitive and leading her astray....but we ended up with the same result after building up her confidence and experience level a bit









I really think that was key...listening, affirming, strategizing...and making sure she knew that we behind her!

It really is such a joy to watch them step out on their own when they are ready!


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

I'm confused about several things.

My DD is 3 and she sometimes pretends (and insists) that she is another name. Usually it's Thelma, for whatever reason. That's fine with us, but when we go somewhere like Sunday School I would simply explain to the teacher she's pretending that's her name. It's up to the teacher and DD to work out the rest. My DD will either be fine with being called her real name, or she will correct the teacher and ask to be called Thelma every time the teacher messes up.

It just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me at all. Maybe I am missing something...

I also don't understand why the OP's child has to be called her name of choice and be 100% respected as a child, but at the same time the DD doesn't have to respect the adults as is the cultural norm. It seems like a confusing double standard. If her DD insists on being called a pretend name that's fine, and why wouldn't she also have to call the adults ma'am and sir in return?

We are interested in unschooling and everything that goes along with it, but at the same time I encourage my DD to respect adults and learn to behave appropriately for whatever setting we are in. If she is unable to behave appropriately, we just don't stay there or don't go in the first place. Or if I am uncomfortable with something (like time-outs) then I wouldn't leave DD there, instead of expecting them to make it different for us...

And by the way, we also live in the South where spanking is quite the norm.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

How is it disrepectful for the child to be called a nickname? It's the only name she uses right now. My brothers and sisters given names and some of them went by nicknames based on those names. I use two names and some people find that really oppressive since it involves saying 5 syllables.

Names are like that.


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

It's not disrespectful, it's respectful of the child's wishes.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
How is it disrepectful for the child to be called a nickname? It's the only name she uses right now. My brothers and sisters given names and some of them went by nicknames based on those names. I use two names and some people find that really oppressive since it involves saying 5 syllables.

Names are like that.

I think there was a comparison being made between asking an adult to call the child by a nickname, and adults asking to be called "ma'am" and "sir"... Another poster mentioned that she has to step in to prevent her child from being expected to do the latter when they visit family in the south.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

chaoticzenmom -- you are not far off-base. We are in the Midwest, where there isn't quite the Ma'm/Sir-thing going -- but nevertheless there is still sort of that Bible Belt mentality among some people.

chfriend's posts really sum up my feelings about the subject. We want to get connected into this community, which we are doing. And when my younger dd is happy interacting with an adult without me (and I am comfortable trusting the adult), then I'll be glad to go and enjoy adult worship.

I'm kind of disappointed that at this time it's like "1 step forward, 1 step back." I'll just keep going with dd while she wants me to. And just follow my instincts as I have been doing.

It's possible that it wasn't really a case of "Let me get Mom out of the way" -- but rather of "Now that Mom isn't here let's see if she REALLY gets upset about it." But from my dd's perspective, it communicates to her that "As soon as Mommy's out of the room, people start messing with me about my name."

As far as not trusting dd to hold her own -- at this point, whenever someone tries to argue with her about her name, she has not yet graduated to a mature response of just calmly telling the other person, "This is what I want to be called" and/or just calmly ignoring them until they address her by her chosen name.

So, leaving her to stand up for herself essentially means, leaving her to fly into a screaming rage if someone argues with her about this, and if they keep pushing it, she might just haul off and slap 'em. Which where we live, can often mean that it's the child who gets into trouble, not the adult who decided to turn a non-issue into an issue.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I think there was a comparison being made between asking an adult to call the child by a nickname, and adults asking to be called "ma'am" and "sir"... Another poster mentioned that she has to step in to prevent her child from being expected to do the latter when they visit family in the south.

I'm the one who brought it up, but it wasn't meant to be a comparison. Just an example of the strict nature of the South when it comes to respecting elders. I wouldn't consider Ma'am or Sir to be a nickname and I didn't mean to say that calling someone Sir is the same as calling a child baby.

I was trying to clarify why the OP might need to intervene more than most of us would find necessary in social situations between our children and other adults.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Hey it's probably OT, but I just ran into an article about a new study on imagination and fantasy play.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...061841322.html


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
So, leaving her to stand up for herself essentially means, leaving her to fly into a screaming rage if someone argues with her about this, and if they keep pushing it, she might just haul off and slap 'em. Which where we live, can often mean that it's the child who gets into trouble, not the adult who decided to turn a non-issue into an issue.

It sounds like your DD needs some help in learning how to stand up for herself.

With our DD we will help her figure out the words, and then send her back to the person to use those words. I don't think that speaking for her will do anything to help her or teach her.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Hey it's probably OT, but I just ran into an article about a new study on imagination and fantasy play.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...061841322.html

I don't see how this is relevant. No one has argued that imaginative play isn't important or good. There have been 2 questions raised:

1) Is it realistic to expect that every single person a child meets plays along with an imagination game

and

2) At what age/developmental point are children easily able to distinguish between fantasy and reality.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pepper44* 
I also don't understand why the OP's child has to be called her name of choice and be 100% respected as a child, but at the same time the DD doesn't have to respect the adults as is the cultural norm. It seems like a confusing double standard. If her DD insists on being called a pretend name that's fine, and why wouldn't she also have to call the adults ma'am and sir in return?

We DO call adults, and everyone, whatever each particular person wants to be called. And if someone wanted to be addressed as "Ma'am" or "Sir" all the time, we would do that, too -- only here we'd just address them as Ma'am or Sir in the same contexts where we'd normally be speaking someone's name.

I.e., my children are accustomed that it's okay to say just "Yes" or "No" to questions, or "Okay" if they're agreeing to do something ...

So they don't have it programmed into them to repetitively say the person's name over and over, as in, "Yes, Mommy ... No, Daddy ... Okay, Fred" So if they know someone by the name of "Ma'am," they'd just be speaking "Ma'am" in the same contexts that they would normally speak anyone else's names.

This hasn't been an issue here in our particular Midwestern city.

What's weird to me, is realizing that some people see it as an attempt to *control* *others*, to just expect people to call you by whatever name you introduce yourself with. If someone introduces herself to me as "Mrs. Gray," then I just call her Mrs. Gray.

I don't argue with her about "Why don't you want anyone to call you by your first name?" If I did argue, I think this would really be a case of ME getting into HER space and trying to control HER, and not of HER getting into MY space and trying to control ME by expecting me to call her Mrs. Gray.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

You seem to be missing the point that "baby" isn't the same as a normal nickname...

A name like "Baby" carries with it much much more than, let's say, "Sue" for "Susan".

I don't believe we can change the world. And I wouldn't want to set my child up for constant disappointment by setting up that expectation.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
So, leaving her to stand up for herself essentially means, leaving her to fly into a screaming rage if someone argues with her about this, and if they keep pushing it, she might just haul off and slap 'em. Which where we live, can often mean that it's the child who gets into trouble, not the adult who decided to turn a non-issue into an issue.

In this case, I would not even consider leaving my dc in a Sunday School class. I don't think the average sunday school volunteer would anticipate such a strong reaction, or would be prepared to deal with it. What if one of the other children pushed an issue in your absence?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't see how this is relevant. No one has argued that imaginative play isn't important or good. There have been 2 questions raised:

1) Is it realistic to expect that every single person a child meets plays along with an imagination game

and

2) At what age/developmental point are children easily able to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

I see the question very differently...and agree that it has nothing to do with the distinction between fantasy and reality.

Does a child of 4 deserve to be called what she wishes without hassle (profanity aside)?

In my opinion, yes. In the opinion of some other folks, depends on what she wants to be called and whether the grown up likes the name.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't believe we can change the world. And I wouldn't want to set my child up for constant disappointment by setting up that expectation.

Eureka! I see here why we see this so differently.

I can change the world!! Every little thing that I do can make a difference. I'm willing to endure disappointment and irritation to change the world to a kinder and better place.

I hope my children feel the same way.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It sounds like your DD needs some help in learning how to stand up for herself.

With our DD we will help her figure out the words, and then send her back to the person to use those words. I don't think that speaking for her will do anything to help her or teach her.

My way of helping her is by being with her and modeling how to handle things, until such time as she has better impulse-control and is ready to handle things on her own.

But I am accustomed to people telling me that my way of helping my children, really isn't helping them or teaching them anything.

I've already shared about the toileting -- another example is in how I delt with the way that she used to be quite extremely-aggressive with other kids. Sometimes in anger or fighting over toys -- but sometimes just because she'd feel these sudden urges to grab someone's face and squeeze really hard.

So I was constantly shadowing her in situations with other kids -- staying at arm's length well past the age when all her friends' moms were sitting off to the side chatting. Because she could be getting along fine for a while, and then suddenly get aggressive without warning.

So I was always at the ready to just take her out of situations when I could tell she'd had enough of the group setting, and might be about to hurt someone. And for quite sometime I got so tired that I avoided these group situations as much as I could, while at the same time meeting my older child's needs to get out and about.

People warned me that if I didn't hit or punish her in some way, she'd never learn. They warned me that dd just wasn't one of those kids who could learn though me taking her aside and talking with her. And of course they thought she'd do better if I wasn't always hovering (SHE probably would have been fine -- it was actually THEIR kids I was trying to protect, LOL).

But I persevered with what I knew in my heart to be right -- and now for the most part she gets along wonderfully with other children, and I get to sit off to the side and chat now, too. So she has heaps more impulse-control than she did a year ago -- but can still get intensely-violent if she feels like people are getting into her personal space and not respecting her boundaries ...

And it's really not that she has a big PHYSICAL-space bubble. She actually loves and seeks out physical touch and likes intense, rambuntious contact with others. But psychologically, she has a really huge bubble wherein she just expects others to leave her alone and respect her choices.

And so far, adults seem to invade this bubble waay more than the little ones in her age-group do.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Eureka! I see here why we see this so differently.

I can change the world!! Every little thing that I do can make a difference. I'm willing to endure disappointment and irritation to change the world to a kinder and better place.

I hope my children feel the same way.

I don't disagree that I can make a difference. But, I can only control what I do. I cannot force anyone else to do anything. My child can want with all her heart for everyone to call her "Princess", but neither she nor I can force anyone else to do so. So I'd rather help her have realistic expectations where she gets to control what she can control - her reaction.

We, and many of our friends, have the colored pastic IKEA plates. In our house, we allow and honor requests for specific colored plates. Not everyone else does. Some of our friends will serve food on the first 3 plates they grab and kids get what they get. So we've taught DD that in some situations she can control what colored plate she gets. Her grandparents are even willing to let her change her mind after they've put the food on a plate (we draw the line when the food touches the plate). We've taught her that there is never any harm is asking for a specific color, but that not all people will go along with it. It has caused some tears on playdates, but she's figured it out. She gets the color she wants 95% of the time, and deals the rest of the time.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
In this case, I would not even consider leaving my dc in a Sunday School class. I don't think the average sunday school volunteer would anticipate such a strong reaction, or would be prepared to deal with it. What if one of the other children pushed an issue in your absence?

I agree. If there's a fear that a child might respond with physical violence over what she is called, and doesn't yet have the control to not keep her hands off someone then mom staying iis definitely needed. I don't think that it would be the adult's fault if they didn't comply with a name choice and they were hit for it. And to be honest, if a child is still having trouble with having a physical reaction when things don't go their way, I'm not sure it's fair to the child to assume that that reaction will ONLY happen in the context of names.

DD will eventually get there. But until she does, kudos to the OP for acting to keep *everyone* safe, including her kiddo.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

mammal-mama, I'm still reading this thread and I want to stress that I really think it's fantastic that you're so in-tune with your child!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

No, you can't force anyone to call her Princess, but certainly, you can choose not to leave her in the care of someone who finds calling her Princess objectionable.

Or if you prefer, you can choose to refuse to call her Princess and let her know that she can pretend to be a princess, but she is a in fact a commoner.

I love those IKEA plates. We use the china ones from the toy area.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I think everyone has different perspectives, when it comes to which situations we think we should or shouldn't expect to have any control over. When in other's homes, I talk about how this isn't our house and if we want to stay, we need to follow the rules of our hosts.

Similarly, dd can play with her toys anytime she wants to at home. But when we're in church, those are the church's toys so we wait 'til after the story time.

And so on.

And of course if my children aren't happy in any given situation and want to leave, that is exercising our free choice to control the things that we *can* control.

I'm thinking that since I've already discussed things with both the director and the teacher, there's no need for me to keep going over and over it with them. They understand that I'm going to stay with dd for as long as she wants me to, and they've never expressed any problems with me being there --

And of course I'll be glad to let them run a background check on me if they ever decide that is necessary.

I've learned alot from this thread, such as the idea that some adults are actually concerned about children becoming confused if adults don't train them to use words like "pretending" during their imaginary play. And I think maybe this is where this teacher is getting hung up.

Also, I'm kind of an oddity in that I'm not all that hung up on the definition of the word "baby." I don't see anything wrong with a small child thinking of herself as "Baby." Of course little kids aren't tiny infants -- but a baby is a baby beyond infancy, and I actually think there's lots of overlap between the different stages of development.

This is why I see absolutely no need to argue the point, or make absolutely sure that dd knows she isn't "really" a baby ... I kinda think she still IS a baby in some ways, and not so much in others ... and I believe she'll figure out that she isn't a baby, at the exact moment when she is ready to move on from being a baby.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

lotusdebi, thank you so much again for all your support!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I agree. If there's a fear that a child might respond with physical violence over what she is called, and doesn't yet have the control to not keep her hands off someone then mom staying iis definitely needed. I don't think that it would be the adult's fault if they didn't comply with a name choice and they were hit for it. And to be honest, if a child is still having trouble with having a physical reaction when things don't go their way, I'm not sure it's fair to the child to assume that that reaction will ONLY happen in the context of names.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Dd has lots better impulse-control than she did in the past, so I don't believe she would automatically jump to physical violence.

She WOULD be more likely to express anger verbally, though, than to just calmly re-state what she wants to be called and ignore people until they called her that.

And if the adult decided to get down and argue about it with her at face-to-face level, at this point she just might haul off and slap 'em.

I didn't mean to give the impression that she just jumps straight into a physically-violent reaction -- because she really doesn't do that anymore.

But I certainly agree that it's a good idea for me to keep on staying with her.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
DD will eventually get there. But until she does, kudos to the OP for acting to keep *everyone* safe, including her kiddo.

Thank you!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
And if the adult decided to get down and argue about it with her at face-to-face level, at this point she just might haul off and slap 'em.

But most adults who work with children are *encouraged* to get down to a face to face level when interacting with children, to be respectful and/or less intimidating than bending down on high.

So I would say that would be a concern, and not one the other adult would likely anticipate.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
And if the adult decided to get down and argue about it with her at face-to-face level, at this point she just might haul off and slap 'em.











So if an adult did what is the most recommended way to have a respectful conversation with a child, which is to get down on their level and actually talk to them... Your child, at 4.5yo, would hit them?

It sounds like it is a good idea that you stay with her.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 









So if an adult did what is the most recommended way to have a respectful conversation with a child, which is to get down on their level and actually talk to them... Your child, at 4.5yo, would hit them?

No, of course she wouldn't hit them if they got down on her level to have a *respectful* conversation with her. She loves attention, she loves talking to others. Nothing would make her happier than for an adult to get down on her level, and play or interact with her in a respectful and friendly way.

I was talking about the hypothetical situation of some adult getting down there to push whatever issues THEY have with dd's chosen name -- not about respectful conversation.

And obviously the previous situation didn't escalate to the point of dd becoming violent -- so I'm not assuming that it's a "given" than she would hit someone over this. I'm just saying that it's possible, which is one reason why upon learning that this teacher has more issues, regarding respecting my child, than I'd previously realized, I know that I definitely need to keep staying with her.

Quote:

It sounds like it is a good idea that you stay with her.
Thank you.


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## MissLotus (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

And if the adult decided to get down and argue about it with her at face-to-face level, at this point she just might haul off and slap 'em.


Yikes. It sounds like she doesn't hear "no" enough, if she gets that enraged at being told "no" by other adults. I think it's healthy for kids to know that everything doesn't necessarily revolve around them.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
Yikes. It sounds like she doesn't hear "no" enough, if she gets that enraged at being told "no" by other adults. I think it's healthy for kids to know that everything doesn't necessarily revolve around them.

There are many reasons that kids lose their tempers and react aggressively. Not being told "no" enough is only one of them.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
Yikes. It sounds like she doesn't hear "no" enough, if she gets that enraged at being told "no" by other adults. I think it's healthy for kids to know that everything doesn't necessarily revolve around them.

It might not be that she doesn't hear "no" enough, but that "no" makes her feel powerless and makes her react. I have 4 kids and with them, it's been my experience that the more powerless they feel, for whatever reason, the more aggressive they are. Hearing "no" and feeling like you're suddenly powerless can cause some children to go over the edge.

My first child almost never heard the word "no" and he never threw any tantrums, ever. It's not about how often the child is told "no."

Maybe this child needs some more power in some way. I'm constantly reminding my older children not to "parent" my 4yo and to be conscious of making him feel small and inferior. He reacts to those feelings with aggression. Telling him "no" more often wouldn't help him, but helping him feel more capable and important does help him.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I was talking about the hypothetical situation of some adult getting down there to push whatever issues THEY have with dd's chosen name -- not about respectful conversation.

And obviously the previous situation didn't escalate to the point of dd becoming violent -- so I'm not assuming that it's a "given" than she would hit someone over this. I'm just saying that it's possible, which is one reason why upon learning that this teacher has more issues, regarding respecting my child, than I'd previously realized, I know that I definitely need to keep staying with her.

I think perhaps this is the difference in how I view the situation. It sounds as if you and your dd view disagreeing as necessarily disrespectful. The idea that the teacher "has more issues" isn't one I completely understand. I can disagree about a point with someone without it affecting my view of this person overall, especially when I'm using my 4YO's perception of what happened to make those decisions.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I think perhaps this is the difference in how I view the situation. It sounds as if you and your dd view disagreeing as necessarily disrespectful. The idea that the teacher "has more issues" isn't one I completely understand. I can disagree about a point with someone without it affecting my view of this person overall, especially when I'm using my 4YO's perception of what happened to make those decisions.

I agree with this. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean there is any disrespect involved.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

The bottom line is the teacher knew the mom wanted her DD request to be called baby honoured, called her baby several times in the moms presence, and waited until the mother was out of the room to dishonour the request.

Now the SS teacher may have had very good reasons why she was not OK with calling the OP's DD "baby" - but the person to bring it up with is the mother-especially as a precedent of the mother being approachable/involved and honouring her DD's "baby - name" request had been set.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

The suggestion that I view someone holding a different opinion from me as disrespectful, really strikes a chord with me.

And I hope I'm not going too off-topic here, but it really reminds me of something my mom said to me a while back, because she disagrees with my decision not to be in contact with a relative who called Children's Services on me.

My mom said, "People have a right to disagree with you, Susan. You can't control other people!"

And this just seemed so turned-around to me. Since prior to the call, I'd listened to this person's views about some of my parenting choices, and respectfully shared why I disagreed. And just went on doing what I was doing.

I wasn't breaking contact with her because I felt she had no right to disagree with me about my homeschooling -- I broke contact after it became clear that she wanted to involve the authorities in order to force her opinion on me.

I know this situation is a lot more extreme than the one we are talking about on this thread. But it honestly seems to me like there is a common theme. I could TELL that the woman disagreed with my choice to call my child Baby. It was obvious that this was never-in-a-million-years what she would choose to do with one of her own children.

I seriously, truly, had no problem with the fact that she held a different opinion than me. It became a problem when she tried to take things up with my child. And I'm cool with giving her the benefit-of-the-doubt. And not assuming that it was *definitely* a "get the momma out of the way and then I'll get this child in line"-type scenario.

I want a friendly relationship with the woman. And my daughter enjoys Sunday School and Children's Chapel, so we plan to keep going. I'll stay with dd for as long as she needs me.

True, I think the woman has some issues. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if SHE thinks that *I* have some issues. We have a right to disagree, and we have a right to think that some other people have some issues.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
Maybe this child needs some more power in some way. I'm constantly reminding my older children not to "parent" my 4yo and to be conscious of making him feel small and inferior. He reacts to those feelings with aggression. Telling him "no" more often wouldn't help him, but helping him feel more capable and important does help him.

I have sometimes had to intervene when she and her older sister are playing, because sometimes Big Sister has tried to talk her into picking another name besides Baby.

And what's rough is that Baby enjoys playing with Big Sis so much, and Big Sis has sometimes tried to make her playing with Baby conditional on Baby agreeing to go by another name while they are playing. So I've told my older dd that it's totally up to her if she wants to play with her little sister -- but if she does then no threats of "I'll stop playing with you unless you do X."

Just play if you want to stay, and stop if you want to stop (though it's nice when she's willing to give her little sister some advance warning rather than stopping cold turkey of course).

I think Big Sis finally "gets it" that these manipulations just upset Baby and increase her determination that she is Baby. Because it hasn't come up for a while.

But, having read your post, chaoticzenmom, I'm realizing that these interactions with her sister may very well have caused dd to feel even more strongly that letting go of the name "Baby" means letting go of her power and letting others run her life.

Again, it seems to come back to just leaving her alone about the issue and allowing it to become a non-issue. This seems the best way to make her feel capable and important, because it shows that her communications are being respected. And then there are many other ways that she can grow and feel more capable. And pretty soon it will be a non-issue.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
Yikes. It sounds like she doesn't hear "no" enough, if she gets that enraged at being told "no" by other adults. I think it's healthy for kids to know that everything doesn't necessarily revolve around them.

How is calling someone what they want to be called, communicating that the world revolves around them?


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
How is calling someone what they want to be called, communicating that the world revolves around them?

I guess I just don't expect people to call me what I want to be called. Not if it makes them uncomfortable. Right now I would love to be called "Ms" since I am leaving my husband, but I don't feel disrespected when people still refer to me as "Mrs".


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
Yikes. It sounds like she doesn't hear "no" enough, if she gets that enraged at being told "no" by other adults. I think it's healthy for kids to know that everything doesn't necessarily revolve around them.

May I recommend to you that you consider reading The Explosive Child, the Highly Sensitive Child, Raising Your Spirited Child and The Out of Sync Child?

There are a host of reasons a 4.year.old.child might have difficulty controlling herself beside "not hearing 'no' enough" or not "know[ing] that everything doesn't necessarily revolve around them."


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 









So if an adult did what is the most recommended way to have a respectful conversation with a child, which is to get down on their level and actually talk to them... Your child, at 4.5yo, would hit them?

It sounds like it is a good idea that you stay with her.

The recommendation is to talk with them, not argue with them.

And this is a great example of why since all kids are different, "the most recommended way" might not work for every kid.

Even more reason to make sure that the adults know the individual children before they are responsible for them.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
The recommendation is to talk with them, not argue with them.

It doesn't sound like the teacher argued. It sounds like the OP's child made a false statement "I am a baby" and the teacher corrected her. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. The girl isn't a baby. I can completely understand the teacher's reluctance to continue using "Baby" as a name for the child under that circumstance.

I guess it comes down to it being a game I just don't play. My sister plays this game with her kids. They say something false and she'll just tell them they are right. Like that the steak being served for supper is chicken, or that their cup has more juice in it that someone else's. It drives me batty. We don't do it with DD ever. I see no value in supporting wrong information.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bunnyflakes* 
I guess I just don't expect people to call me what I want to be called. Not if it makes them uncomfortable. Right now I would love to be called "Ms" since I am leaving my husband, but I don't feel disrespected when people still refer to me as "Mrs".

Ms. Bunnyflakes.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It doesn't sound like the teacher argued. It sounds like the OP's child made a false statement "I am a baby" and the teacher corrected her. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. The girl isn't a baby. I can completely understand the teacher's reluctance to continue using "Baby" as a name for the child under that circumstance.

I guess it comes down to it being a game I just don't play. My sister plays this game with her kids. They say something false and she'll just tell them they are right. Like that the steak being served for supper is chicken, or that their cup has more juice in it that someone else's. It drives me batty. We don't do it with DD ever. I see no value in supporting wrong information.

Gotcha. I see no value in contradicting a 4 year old. Different strokes.

But if someone who has been left in charge of a small child for the first time feels like they need to pick that hill to battle on, I don't think it's too big a surprise that that kid doesn't want to be left in their charge again.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bunnyflakes* 
I guess I just don't expect people to call me what I want to be called. Not if it makes them uncomfortable. Right now I would love to be called "Ms" since I am leaving my husband, but I don't feel disrespected when people still refer to me as "Mrs".











I wouldn't either over the Miss, Mrs., or Ms.-thing. And though I introduce myself as "Susan," I don't get all miffed if some people say, "Suze" or whatever. And I prefer being addressed by my first name by everyone, but if someone called me "Mrs. ______" in passing, no big deal.

But my older dd nearly always corrects people if they mispronounce her name -- and I don't see it as "she thinks the world revolves around her," even though there are certainly some situations where I as an adult would just let it pass ... Susan doesn't get mispronounced so much --

I just think most children go through a phase where they're more identity-conscious.

But I occasionally have met some adult who was rather particular about how s/he wanted to be addressed. Not to the point of screaming if someone screwed it up -- but if someone repeatedly screwed it up you could tell they were displeased.

Anyhow, I just like to make a special effort to call people whatever they want to be called, and to spell their names properly. So I second chfriend on the "Ms. Bunnyflakes."


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Gotcha. I see no value in contradicting a 4 year old. Different strokes.

But if someone who has been left in charge of a small child for the first time feels like they need to pick that hill to battle on, I don't think it's too big a surprise that that kid doesn't want to be left in their charge again.

Gosh, you speak my thoughts for me even better than I do!


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Ms. Bunnyflakes.
















Thanks









You know, OP, people mispell my name ALL the time, and most people don't think it is a big deal, but to me it irks me. Especially if I have known them forever. I usually feel disrespected if they don't at least try to spell it right. So maybe I am leaning towards the other side of this now









And I would like to add that today one of my students decided that he had a new last name, so I called him that, just because of your DD


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Also, I'm kind of an oddity in that I'm not all that hung up on the definition of the word "baby." I don't see anything wrong with a small child thinking of herself as "Baby." Of course little kids aren't tiny infants -- but a baby is a baby beyond infancy, and I actually think there's lots of overlap between the different stages of development.

This is why I see absolutely no need to argue the point, or make absolutely sure that dd knows she isn't "really" a baby ... I kinda think she still IS a baby in some ways, and not so much in others ... and I believe she'll figure out that she isn't a baby, at the exact moment when she is ready to move on from being a baby.

So true! My dd (almost 6) was so happy to read a really old story the other day called "the baby and the bear" The baby in the story (that they constantly refer to as 'the baby' is 5! My dd loved this reference b/c she has been worried about leaving babyhood behind.

Beyond that- thanks for giving me hope about the toilet training. My ds is 3.5 and I'm going to stop pressuring myself so much


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
It doesn't sound like the teacher argued. It sounds like the OP's child made a false statement "I am a baby" and the teacher corrected her. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. The girl isn't a baby. I can completely understand the teacher's reluctance to continue using "Baby" as a name for the child under that circumstance.

I guess it comes down to it being a game I just don't play. My sister plays this game with her kids. They say something false and she'll just tell them they are right. Like that the steak being served for supper is chicken, or that their cup has more juice in it that someone else's. It drives me batty. We don't do it with DD ever. I see no value in supporting wrong information.

See, I know people that always tell their kids what the "truth" is and really- it seems so stifling to the imagination and learning process. I have no problem agreeing with my kids about things that aren't "true". Like my 3.5 yr old pretending to write alongside his sister. I don't tell him- "no that is not a 't'" I just nod and smile and say "oh I see- that's how you write a 't'!" The process, to me, is more valuable than correcting wrong thinking/doing when there is no moral objection.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bunnyflakes* 
And I would like to add that today one of my students decided that he had a new last name, so I called him that, just because of your DD









Oh that is so wonderful to hear!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
So true! My dd (almost 6) was so happy to read a really old story the other day called "the baby and the bear" The baby in the story (that they constantly refer to as 'the baby' is 5! My dd loved this reference b/c she has been worried about leaving babyhood behind.

Also, I think in the Laura Ingalls Wilder books, Carrie was still "Baby Carrie" when she was about 5.

Quote:

Beyond that- thanks for giving me hope about the toilet training. My ds is 3.5 and I'm going to stop pressuring myself so much








You're welcome! When dd was around 3.5, and even just after turning 4, she sure didn't seem to be near at all to training. Then one day she just decided, and that was it. So just hang in there momma!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
The process, to me, is more valuable than correcting wrong thinking/doing when there is no moral objection.

I agree totally.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

I'd like to start by stating right up front that four is still in the land of "babyhood" imho. Second, "Babe" is/can be REAL name, I've known people who had it on their birth certificates! And while the first time I heard it I thought it was odd, since I also see it as a term of endearment, I don't think I have a right to call the person something else because I think it's weird. If it's a given name or a nickname, it's there NAME. My name is Angela, it would upset me if you told me that you didn't like my name or think it was a "real" name and so you will just call me Rhonda from now on. I mean, wth? I've seen kids named things like Apple and Champagne and Tomorrow. I can't tell the parent that I think Tomorrow is a ridiculous name for their child, can I just call her by her middle name, even though everyone else in her life calls her Tomorrow. It's an identity issue. When my oldest son entered first grade, his teacher greeted him on meet the teacher night with, "I understand you go by B" (his middle name, which he had been called by everyone since before birth, including his k teacher and friends) and he replied, "actually, I would like to be called P" (his first name). The teacher looked at me and I shrugged and said, "first I've heard of it, but it's his name" and P he has been ever since. I've known people who grew up and legally changed their names. Your name is you identity, it's no small thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
When my dd feels to much pressure she starts acting like a cat; she crawls, meows, and wants to be carried while she speaks in only cat. She did this for almost a year after my divorce because I thought of it as a phase and was really stressed out myself and having a hard time dealing with a very difficult three year old. Now when she does this I can pull her out of being a cat in a few days at most by spending lots of time giving her cuddles, working on rebuilding our relationship, and addressing the things that are stressing both of us out. I think reaching out for a community is a great first step, but are there other things that are causing stress?

My DD, who is six, frequently pretends to be a dog, she lays in the floor, eats from a bowl on the floor, barks etc. This has been going on for awhile. As far as I know, there is really no stress in her life. Outside normal stress. Her father and I get along wildy and rarely disagree. Im not saying that your dd WASNT stresed, just that I don't think this type of play pretend necasarily means stress. It might just mean a good imagination and a slight obsession with the subject matter. My DD now plays PetVetz on the computer and given her other obsession with biology, who knows? Maybe she'll end up a vet and we'll all joke about how we knew it when she was a "dog" for a year!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristyDi* 
I am a Sunday School teacher (3 year olds).

I would honestly feel fairly uncomfortable calling another person's kid who I'd just met "Baby" for a couple of reasons. It feels like an inappropriate endearment from an adult that isn't all that close to the kid. I personally hate it when people call their kids baby when they're not babies. I realize that the second is all me and others don't feel this way.

But what if Baby were the name on the actual birth certificate? Would you still refuse to call the child that? I think the solution for the OP is to just introduce that way, "This is Baby" Why not? I knew a girl named Princess, one named Queen and one named Quarter. Quarter especially seemed weird to me, but I still called her that. Given or name or nickname shouldnt matter, if this is the name that they are called within their family it IS their name and you can't just randomly NOT call someone by their name. My mom decided she didn't like the name we picked for my second son and asked if she could call him a shortened version on his middle name. I said no, since everyone else on the face of the earth will be calling him by his first name. It's not up to her to decide who he is/what he is called. JMHO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyactsofcharity* 
Once, a kid that I know went by "Batman" for a significant period of time (like, a year I think.)

There was a girl at our church that spent a few months refusing to acknowledge you if you didn't address her as "Baby Spiderman."

!!

LOVE IT, LOL!! Two boys that came with their sister to dd's dance class were ALWAYS dressed in costumes, batman and spiderman. EVERYONE at the dance studio called them that and they just grinned ear to ear loving it! I'm certain that they didn't REALLY think they were the real batman or spiderman, but it sure made them happy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Gently, may I suggest that perhaps there is something going on with your dd regarding her feelings of her place in the family, stress, etc? I don't think it's a normal thing for a 4YO to want to revert back to wearing diapers, especially when other kids ask about it (though, incidentally, why were you fielding these questions from other children and not your dd?). The Baby nickname itself I would hedge on with one of my children, but I cannot imagine allowing one of them to choose to wear diapers just because they felt like it. I'm not going back to changing diapers unless it's for a newborn or a gastrointestinal disorder. That's a pretty big step back in my book, and it is something that would bother me.

My DD wore diapers until after the age of four as well. Even when she peed in the potty, she would ask for a diaper to go poop in. I don't know why this was so important to her, but it was and so we did it. She eventually got past it. Everyone in their own time. I also felt that having two younger brothers, a bit of regression was normal and once she felt secure about her place in the family again, we moved on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
As others have mentioned, perhaps the teacher is uncomfortable with the nickname because she sees it as overly familiar. I agree that it's perfectly within your DD's rights to state her calling of choice. But I think that boundaries and respect go both ways--and it's perfectly okay for the teacher to say, "You know, I don't feel comfortable with that. Can we think of a nickname together, one that you like and I'm comfortable with?"

Really? Because I don't believe that the sunday school teacher gets naming rights to my child. I once worked with a child whose nickname was Mimi, although this was not on her birth certificate nor was it a diminutive of what was. Yet it would never have occured to me to ask to call the child something different than what everone else on the face of the planet called her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
. I don't understand your objection to that... I can't stand it when kids say they "are" something they aren't. Maybe it's a semantics thing, but we're very clear in our house to use language like "I'm pretending to be a princess" rather than "I am a princess". Your DD isn't a baby. Why would you want her walking around saying she is one?

I find this very confusing. My DD often pretends to be various animals. But it's clear that it's pretend. She's actually a little girl.

But when children of that age are pretending, it IS real to them and that's developmentally appropriate. Pretending is not the same as lying.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaoticzenmom* 
If I can speak for MM for a moment....correct me if I'm wrong, MM. M-M lives in the South and has very different opinions of child-rearing than most of her peers. Her daughter would be unable to adequately defend herself in most of these situations because children are not to defend themselves in this area. Children are to call everyone Ma'am and Sir and to defer to all adults in a respectful and obedient manner. That's the normal expectation in that area. I was raised there, so I know. So, it's hard not to step in and protect your child when you know that your child is ill-equiped to deal with people who will most likely not be open to her seemingly unreasonable requests. Most adults in this area would find a child like that in need of a "whoopin'" The best way for MM to teach her child to deal with these people is to model. The child will see her mother demand respect for the child and the child will learn to demand respect for herself.

Even when I go there to visit, I have my guard up. I have to pay attention to the interactions between my child and other adults. Stop teasing short, stop any tickling short, any unreasonable scolding for age appropriate behavior. I can imagine living there, it would be even harder.

I don't know if MM is going overboard with it or not and only she knows that. There is a point where assertiveness becomes aggressiveness. But this example of wanting to be called a different name seems like a mother defending her child's childhood. My own mother (who lives in this area) expected me to tell my child "suck it up." for just about anything he cried about. She loves me and him, she just thinks that if you don't teach them to "suck it up." they'll be whiney and incapable.

I grew up in Texas and you have nailed it to a T! Yes, growing up I was taught that children are seen and not heard and children always do what an adult tells them, ANY adult. It took me years to overcome my feelings of helplessness and I still have issues of being nonconfrontational. So I am also often accused of being over protective but I happen to know that when it's a four year old vs. an adult, bad things can happen to the child. Even those with good intentions. I have no doubt that my mother loves my children and her sense of worrying about them is where the endless badgering comes from to not breastfeed, not cosleep, spank them etc. I do not expect my four year old to defend himself against her though, when he is still learning how to navigate control of his own emotions and actions! One thing at a time. Of course I want my children to be independent adults, but at four, they have a long way to adulthood.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't disagree that I can make a difference. But, I can only control what I do. I cannot force anyone else to do anything. My child can want with all her heart for everyone to call her "Princess", but neither she nor I can force anyone else to do so. So I'd rather help her have realistic expectations where she gets to control what she can control - her reaction.

While I would agree with you in a general sense, as in, hey at auntie's house, we don't get to pick our own plates...when it comes to a name I disagree. If you only introduce her as "princess" then what other choice do they have really?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bunnyflakes* 
I guess I just don't expect people to call me what I want to be called. Not if it makes them uncomfortable. Right now I would love to be called "Ms" since I am leaving my husband, but I don't feel disrespected when people still refer to me as "Mrs".

But it's just a slip to say mrs instead of ms. If you introduced yourself as susan and someone said, I don't like that name, so I'll call you Gina, would that be ok?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
See, I know people that always tell their kids what the "truth" is and really- it seems so stifling to the imagination and learning process. I have no problem agreeing with my kids about things that aren't "true". Like my 3.5 yr old pretending to write alongside his sister. I don't tell him- "no that is not a 't'" I just nod and smile and say "oh I see- that's how you write a 't'!" The process, to me, is more valuable than correcting wrong thinking/doing when there is no moral objection.

Perfect! If you were always correcting him, then you would be discouraging exploration and learning. As it is, you are encouraging him!

To the OP: If it's going to be THAT big of an issue, I'd just say, "this is baby" if they say "is that her real name?" say "yes" or "it's what everyone calls her, she wouldnt even respond to anything else" I think when you present it as HER CHOICE, well, sadly, a lot of adults dont respect that, so make it YOUR choice. Not "she likes to be called..." but "we call her...." see the difference? Because a lot of adults seem to be of the opinion that if you are doing anything because the child wants it, then they are in control and don't understand their "place", as adults should always be "in charge". And it's not a lie, you DO call her that and, for now, it IS your choice to do so. Because you could choose not to and to make it an issue, but you don't. You choose to call her baby, so therefor, baby is her (nick)name, for the foreseeable future. And so it should be. I don't know why anyone else thinks they should get a vote on what you call your child or what they will call your child, they would never dream of calling you something other than what you have introduced yourself as. Being a non confrontational person myself, I have learned that if you leave no room for negotiation in the first place then there generally isn't any!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
To the OP: If it's going to be THAT big of an issue, I'd just say, "this is baby" if they say "is that her real name?" say "yes" or "it's what everyone calls her, she wouldnt even respond to anything else" I think when you present it as HER CHOICE, well, sadly, a lot of adults dont respect that, so make it YOUR choice. Not "she likes to be called..." but "we call her...." see the difference? *Because a lot of adults seem to be of the opinion that if you are doing anything because the child wants it, then they are in control and don't understand their "place", as adults should always be "in charge*".

(Bolding mine) I think you've hit the nail on the head right there.

Quote:

Being a non confrontational person myself, I have learned that if you leave no room for negotiation in the first place then there generally isn't any!
Very wise words that I will do well to remember! Thank you!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

ok haven't read the whole thread...but i wanted to say thank you to you OP for standing up for your dd and letting her progress at whatever rate she needs to. we are in such a rush to make kids do what society sees as normal that we forget that everyone is so different.
i would have no problem what so ever in calling your dd baby, and it is honestly shocking that so many seem to have an issue with it at all. it is a word, it is a word your dd wishes to be called. and honestly it is sweet. and who gives a hoot. call her baby. why is it so hard to do something for someone if it makes them happy and comfortable in the situation? is it because she is 4 that there is an issue? many people have nick name that they prefer to be called, who is to say if your dd will ever out grow that name and what if she doesn't? nothing is what. it is a non-issue.
if you like the church and want to continue to go i would stay with your dd and help the ss get over her issue and deal with it. (which it seems like you are planning to anyway)
my youngest has a nick name... lumpy. we call him that, he calls himself that and many people we know call him that. if a ss teacher had issues i would wonder what the heck her/his problem was. it is a name, get over it.

as for the diaper thing... bravo for letting your dd make the move when she was ready.

h


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I definitely empathize with your frustration.

Reading continued responses on the thread, though, stirs up in me my own frustration. I am a generally "go-with-the-flow" or "accomodating" person. I get frustrated because sometimes in a relationship I am the one who bends, because I am understanding and flexible. This is usually fine. But I feel like when I run into people who are quite assertive (like you sound), I am the side that is always acquiescing to your desires, and I am not being respected, but it is a "nickel and dime" thing - so no particular issue I can "confront" about.

A memorable quote that comes to mind is "my rights end where another person's rights begin". I agree with this, and feel that it might be good for you to reflect on boundaries of other people's rights instead of your own - that we each have our own frame of reference.

You could see that the teacher was obviously uncomfortable addressing your DD as Baby. It does not sound like you tried to work out a compromise (by talking with your DD about alternatives or ideas - maybe Babe would be easier, for instance).

I'm not saying that the above is directly pertinent to solving this specific incident now, but I think it would be helpful for you in building community while trying to be respectful of your child and others. Your DD does not see or understand the discomfort her name brings to this teacher (or others) at her age/stage, but you do, so you can be her go-between and work with her on having understanding for the perspective of others. Of course these conversations would be in private.

I hope that wasn't too all over the place. I know that I am not a particularly assertive person, and perhaps if this teacher is not then this perspective might help.

I should say too that I am not assertive, but I am pretty frank with children, because I feel that they are generally very black and white (or they take things best if they are stated very clearly/frankly). So if I were that teacher you might not recognize that I am not particularly assertive in context of teaching, but if you got to know me on a personal level you would understand.

Tjej


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 

This is the difference between Montessori (no fantasy play allowed before 7) and Waldorf (no reality play allowed before 7) to oversimplify.

As a Montessori teacher, I had to comment on this. It is a common misconception that Montessori doesn't allow fantasy play. Not true at all - it should just be generated by the child and not adults. Montessori sees the adults role (one of many roles) as giving the child a basis in reality. So, it is the adult's role to provide experiences that are real and based in reality. If the child comes up with fantasy/imaginary play, it should not be discouraged or thwarted.

Which, I was actually thinking about before I read this particular post. I agree that is important to give a child a strong basis in reality. A four and a half year old isn't a baby. I think it is fine if a child wants to pretend they are a baby. It's also important that all people, kids included, learn that there is a time and place for playing and pretending and there are times for not playing and pretending (that you are a baby or that your name is something other than it really is). So, I think it is fine if other people want to go along with calling a child baby or princess or batman. But, really, none of these kids are those things - so it's fine if others don't want to play along with it, too.

I also know that kids behave differently with different people. Your DD may get really upset if she isn't called Baby when she is with you or at home. She may be perfectly fine with being called her real name in a different setting.

Finally, I have a close friend whose daughter was called "Baby" until she was 8 or 9. She was called this by family members (including at school because her grandma was her teacher), but not really by other kids. She really became like her nickname - she was very cutesy, and really knew how to work it and get her way. She was quite precocious. She is in high school now, and a great kid, but the nickname just didn't seem to set a good tone.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i can not honestly believe this is an actual issue on this board.
we want people to honor our ways of doing things differently and yet it is only adults who get this right.
why is it so hard for most peole here to see that it is ok to call this child by the name she is choosing? why is it so hard for the teacher to do it? why does it cross anyones comfort zone and/or boundries to call someone by their name (even if it is their nick name)? my SIL does not go by her birth name and no one gives a hoot, we all call her by the name she chooses. is she a lier? is she making others uncomfortable by wishing to be called something else?
i have taken care of many people who go by a "cutesy" nickname. it doesn't bug me in the least to call them by the name they wish to be called. in fact in our old neighborhood we had an older woman (80) who went by "grandma". she wasn't my grandma, her name wasn't hard to say... but that is what she wished and it was no big deal to call her that. everyone in the hood called her that. that is how she introduced her self and no she wasn't insane.
and is one example of a child "playing the system" the reason for everyone to not be respectful of the child.
it didn't sound at all like the teacher had an issue with comfort, it sounded like the teacher felt that the child needed to learn that she had to do what whatever adult was watching her was telling her what to do.
and YES 4 is still very young. having had four 4 year olds i know. i would never think to let them handle a situation where someone was disrepecting them and not listening to their requests.
what if the child had wanted to be called by her given name and the SS teacher called her "honey" instead? is that wrong? if so why is it wrong for the child to want to be called "baby" and the SS calling her something else?

h


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
See, I know people that always tell their kids what the "truth" is and really- it seems so stifling to the imagination and learning process. I have no problem agreeing with my kids about things that aren't "true". Like my 3.5 yr old pretending to write alongside his sister. I don't tell him- "no that is not a 't'" I just nod and smile and say "oh I see- that's how you write a 't'!" The process, to me, is more valuable than correcting wrong thinking/doing when there is no moral objection.

I don't understand how the truth is stifling. Now if someone said, "I don't let my children pretend they're mountain climbers. I tell them it's the sofa instead," then yeah, I see a problem with that. There's a big difference between allowing something to go uncorrected and imagination, however.

In the examples given of a child calling steak chicken, I would correct that. It isn't because my child is lying. It's because she's 2, and she doesn't yet know the difference all the time. That's not in any way stifling creativity, and I do think it's harmful to go on acting like it's steak and calling it steak when it's chicken. TBH, I've only ever seen parents do that when they're being devious, as in "she only eats steak, so I let her think everything's steak."

The truth and imagination aren't either/or propositions because they're 2 separate issues. We actively promote story creation and dance choreography and all manner of pretend play in our house from puppets to dress-up. It's important to both DH and I, and as a writer, it's my *job*. Still, I believe in truth when it comes to daily life.

The _truth_ of this thread, however, is that it doesn't seem the issue here was the teacher stifling imagination at all. It seems the issue was her believing the OP's daughter truly believes she's a baby and the teacher's need to correct that assumption.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Too early...didn't think before I typed. Must drink more coffee.


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## Lilly Milly (Nov 19, 2009)

I've been following this thread just because it is interesting, but I haven't had anything to add because my LO is just an infant and I haven't had to deal with anything like this yet. I'm not a teacher either.

So, take this observation as being from someone looking at this from an objective POV and some distance from the issue.

It seems to me that the "Baby" thing is maybe symbolic to you, the OP, and the SS teacher, of a bigger thing. Your original title is "people who feel they have to intervene". I am wondering if the real issue here is that you sense that the SS teacher questions your parenting decisions and this bothers you. It also seems like this is something that has happened a few times for you, since you have mentioned a couple other instances with your mother and with a friend.

It sounds to me like you feel that the teacher is trying to intervene/doesn't approve/etc. and it does sound a bit like that to me too. However, it also sounds like she has tried to be pretty respectful in general considering you may have an ususual style and an unusual child for the area in which you live and your DD has been in the class for a while now and it has been alright.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that if you wish to have a community of people around you, you do have to find a way to "fit in" or at least get along. You cannot expect the world to accomodate you and your DD and it does sound like the SS teacher has tried to meet in the middle overall.

It sounds like the middle ground for now is you staying in the class with her. But if it were me, I would try to work toward her being able to be without me in the class whether the teacher calls her Baby on not. It just doesn't seem like that big a deal. If the teacher is doubting your parenting style, so what? This is just part of the life of a parent, particularly if your style is unusual for the community you are in, right?

That is the way it is when you swim upstream, KWIM?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Is there any chance that people can not see eye to eye on this, without labeling people who disagree with them as "sad" and "uncreative?"

That's like saying there's one way to be creative (always following the child's way and never making distinctions). Which is...rather UNCREATIVE if you ask me. :/


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

To me, everyone is making this way to complicated and it's turned into a debate over respect, boundries, imaginative play, teacher stress and the kitchen sink, lol!!

To me, and maybe it's just me, but to me the bottom line is this: Baby, for better or worse, given name or nickname, is her name. That's the bottom line. She is called Baby. By family, by friends, by herself. That makes it HER NAME. I don't understand how it is disrespectful of the teachers boundries to ask her to call a child by that childs NAME, even though its a nickname. I've known kids with nicknames like pookey or pooh and even though privately I think it's silly, I still call them by it because its their name.

I don't believe it is disrespectful of the teachers boundries to call someone by their name. It boggles my mind that anyone sees it this way.

So, since my mom doesnt like my middle sons given name, should just pick something else to call him by even though everyone else calls him by the other name and that is how he self identifies? Because her liking or disliking of the name is more important that his sense of identity? I think not.

Otherwise, what's even the point of a name? Why don't one of you call me Susan and someone else call me Bob and someone else can call me Tara and so on. I mean, since it's about what other people THINK I should be called and not who I am or what my name actually is. That makes no sense to me.

Bottom line: It's her name. Why does anyone else get to change it for her? They don't.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

**My own mother thought it was important for Christian parents to tell the truth about Santa clause from the start. *Otherwise the kid would grow up and say "mom lied to me about Santa, she probably lied about God too."

And my mom would have gone behind your back to "plant the seeds of salvation" in your daughters mind.*
To her making sure that your daughter knew the difference between "real" and "pretend", and that God and Heaven and Hell were real, not pretend would have been very important and from a very young age was better.
Of course, that's just the churches I grew up in.*

So maybe the SS teacher does believe it's an important thing. *Important enough to warrant being sneaky. *I personally know church women who would have in a heartbeat. *It depends on their personal beliefs.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Thinking something is important is no excuse for being sneaky, or for overriding the parents choice on the matter, or for not accepting someones right to decide what they want to be called no matter how old they are.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

I agree with the poster who said DD should be able to be called by her given name for one hour but I don't like the way the Sunday school teacher went about it. If she wasn't willing to call your DD by the name Baby then I wish she would have just said that to you. I would have preferred her saying, "we don't use nicknames in my Sunday school class." I don't like it when adults take out on children the issues they have with what the parents are doing or not doing.

I personally don't like nicknames but if I'm introduced to a kid and the name is Pookie that's what I'll call him or her. In this day and age you can never figure out what's a nickname and what's on the birth certificate. My friends sister went to school with a child named Miss Marvelous. It was not a nickname. Her name on all official documents was Miss Marvelous. I wonder what the Sunday school teacher would do if Miss Marvelous was one of her students. LOL


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gbailey* 
I agree with the poster who said DD should be able to be called by her given name for one hour but I don't like the way the Sunday school teacher went about it. If she wasn't willing to call your DD by the name Baby then I wish she would have just said that to you. I would have preferred her saying, "we don't use nicknames in my Sunday school class." I don't like it when adults take out on children the issues they have with what the parents are doing or not doing.

I've been thinking about this exact thing since the thread started, and I think way too often we (as individuals) are too willing to assume people know exactly what they're thinking and doing at any given moment. I know *I* don't always know my own mind right away; I like to think things over a bit before coming to a decision. It is entirely possible that the Sunday school teacher thought she could try it out and see how it went, then decide if it worked for her or not. Or maybe she thought it would be fine but became more and more uncomfortable with it.

I'm not ready to call her on sneaky tactics at this point.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
I am a generally "go-with-the-flow" or "accomodating" person. I get frustrated because sometimes in a relationship I am the one who bends, because I am understanding and flexible. This is usually fine. But I feel like when I run into people who are quite assertive (like you sound), I am the side that is always acquiescing to your desires, and I am not being respected, but it is a "nickel and dime" thing - so no particular issue I can "confront" about.

Actually, I'm realizing that my current problem may be partly caused by the fact that, although I'm assertive "underneath it all" and can rise to the occasion when it counts, I actually come across as rather non-assertive in my demeanor.

I'm realizing now that by introducing dd with "She likes to be called Baby," instead of just matter-of-factly saying, "This is Baby," I probably gave people the impression that I was "asking permission" for my child to get to go by her chosen name in their setting. I'll just have to remember to give her name as Baby. period. in future, and I can prob'ly avoid all the hassle.

Quote:

You could see that the teacher was obviously uncomfortable addressing your DD as Baby.
Not exactly. I could "sense" that she saw me as a mother in need of her help in learning to "be the adult" with my child. On one occasion, she rather "casually" talked to me about how important it is to expect our children to rise to our expectations. She said they really will do what we expect them to ... and though it was casual ... yeah, I could tell that she thought I was in need of some expert guidance.

I just listened politely and nodded, because I could tell that she meant well.

Whether or not the teacher *was* uncomfortable with calling dd Baby -- what she actually *said* the other day, was that she didn't mind calling her Baby so long as dd knew that she wasn't really a baby.

Now, when my dd sees a tiny baby (she adores babies) and goes over to smile and interact with the baby, it's obvious *to me* that she sees the difference between her capabilities and the capabilities of this tiny, helpless little person.

But I'm at a loss as to how to persuade this teacher that my dd knows this difference. 'Cause dd just flat out isn't going to verbally-concede that she's "not a baby." And since we all "see" differently, I s'pose that even if the teacher had an opportunity to *see* dd lovingly-interacting with tiny babies, she still might not see this as sufficient evidence, since dd won't SAY, "I'm not a baby."

So, I think it all just comes down to me just giving her name as Baby from here on out.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lilly Milly* 
It seems to me that the "Baby" thing is maybe symbolic to you, the OP, and the SS teacher, of a bigger thing. Your original title is "people who feel they have to intervene". I am wondering if the real issue here is that you sense that the SS teacher questions your parenting decisions and this bothers you. It also seems like this is something that has happened a few times for you, since you have mentioned a couple other instances with your mother and with a friend.

I'll admit that since I got the social worker visit last September, I HAVE had a tendency to think more about any interactions I have with people who disapprove of my parenting-choices.

I really think that the majority of people will just disagree and then go on about their own business, but having had one person in my life who took things a step further, I often find myself wondering, "Just *how far* might this individual feel she needed to go, in her attempts to get me to do things her way?"

Sometimes the fear makes me want to withdraw completely, and just not even take the risk of allowing people who think "too differently" from me, to get too much of a view into our private world and possibly develop "concerns." But I know withdrawal would be, and has been, very unhealthy for both me and my family.

So I'm trying to take these baby-steps of getting more plugged in and developing a relationship-network that extends beyond just dh, me, and our two girls.

Quote:

It sounds like the middle ground for now is you staying in the class with her.
Yes.

Quote:

But if it were me, I would try to work toward her being able to be without me in the class whether the teacher calls her Baby on not.
Or, I could just stay 'til dd is done being called Baby, and feels comfortable staying without me. I don't think this will be such a long time in the overall scheme of things.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hablame_today* 
To her making sure that your daughter knew the difference between "real" and "pretend", and that God and Heaven and Hell were real, not pretend would have been very important and from a very young age was better.

hablame_today, this may be a part of it. So far, I haven't heard her or anyone there doing the hell-thing. One reason we've felt so drawn to this Episcopal Church (I was reading their sermons online for a while before we visited), is that there seems to be such an openness to people with different outlooks on issues pertaining to salvation.

I am personally a Universalist and don't believe God sends people to hell -- and from my understanding the Episcopal church is welcoming to people like me, which gives me hope that maybe this won't be an issue that they give any specific instruction about, but rather that they'll leave it up to the individual to research and work out for themselves what they personally believe.

Not to turn this into a religion-thread, but when we were chatting about how each of us got drawn to the Episcopal Church, I discovered that she came out of a theologically-conservative background just as I did. But whereas I was the one who kind of catapulted my family onto this journey, in her case it was her husband and at first it was really hard for her but now she loves it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Incidentally, the Sunday School curriculum is the Godly Play Curriculum, which was created by an Episcopal priest based on the Montessori method.

So with some of the Montessori ideas that I've been reading here, I'm wondering if she is very strongly into the Montessori method. I know the teachers go through a special training before they start teaching a class.

And it's also possible that she's a Montessori teacher in her fulltime job. I remember that she teaches at a private school but I'm not sure if it's Montessori or not.

I LOVE the Godly Play curriculum. Basically the children come together at the beginning for a Bible Story, which the teacher tells using manipulatives. Then they select what materials they want to work with during their playtime -- the manipulatives from that day's story are available for the kids to play with, plus lots of other manipulative toys and art and craft materials.

And I think there's a LOT about the Montessori method that is wonderful for my dd. I guess I can't quite get on-board with all the concern that kids need adults to explain the difference between fantasy and reality.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anglyn* 
I don't believe it is disrespectful of the teachers boundries to call someone by their name. It boggles my mind that anyone sees it this way.

Yes. And thank you for helping me see, further up-thread, how I might have avoided turning this into a "boundary-issue" for the teacher, by simply saying, "This is Baby," and not approaching it so tentatively, as if I were asking for permission or open to compromise.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
it didn't sound at all like the teacher had an issue with comfort, it sounded like the teacher felt that the child needed to learn that she had to do what whatever adult was watching her was telling her what to do.

This is my take on it, too, especially considering the conversation she had with me where she talked about children rising to whatever expectations we have of them.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I've been thinking about this exact thing since the thread started, and I think way too often we (as individuals) are too willing to assume people know exactly what they're thinking and doing at any given moment. I know *I* don't always know my own mind right away; I like to think things over a bit before coming to a decision. It is entirely possible that the Sunday school teacher thought she could try it out and see how it went, then decide if it worked for her or not. Or maybe she thought it would be fine but became more and more uncomfortable with it.

I'm not ready to call her on sneaky tactics at this point.


Good point.


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

I am SO annoyed for you! I am just imagining how your situation would be handled at my church and I cannot see any of our teachers causing such frustration for a child and a mother. When I taught in the Pre-K room (3-5), there was a newer child who I think was 3 at the time, and when her mom brought her in, the girl got onto all fours and started crawling around. The mom, half-embarassed I'm sure, said "She likes to be a cat right now." And she proceeded to tell me that she will be a cat for hours or even a whole day. I kinda chuckled, and said, Ok! And sure enough, the little girl spent a good part of the hour crawling under the tables and around the room, when it was story time and all the children were sitting down, she continued to be a cat. Big deal! I watched to make sure she wasn't hurting herself. She wasn't terribly distracting to the children. I think if her mother told me that she wants to be called "Kitty Cat"....and say she was about to get into some trouble, I might first call her by her real name, but then remembering that she won't answer to that I would think to call "here kitty kitty kitty!!" Sure it's a little silly, but "Baby" to me is just a term of affection that I feel comfortable calling anyone under 5!

I just can't believe that people who work with preschoolers don't have some amount of understanding that kids go through stuff like this. And we are Christians for pete's sake...show a little GRACE!

OP...I wish you could come to our church or find one like ours that would welcome you and your "Baby" with open arms!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Wow, Heather! You sound like a wonderful teacher.

I guess Kansas City's not near enough to St. Louis for us to drive out there every Sunday, LOL.

I guess the thing about people who work with preschoolers, is that we all have such different understandings about children. I worked in Early Childhood for many years before having my own family -- and I had some co-workers who thought similarly to me (and you) about these issues --

But it seems that this field also draws quite a few women who find it very rewarding to "create order out of chaos," if that makes sense ... to take a bunch of little people and within a very short time work the "magic" that has them all following directions and rising to the teacher's expectations.

I've met lots of early childhood teachers who take great pride that they were the one who got a 3yo started tying her shoes, or that they're the only one who can "control" a certain child.

So I guess it doesn't surprise me so much that someone in teaching would have her views.

And I usually got along just great with my coworkers when I worked in child care -- maybe because they weren't working their magic on MY children (since I didn't have any kids yet, LOL). So I imagine it will all work out.

I'll stay in there for as long as dd needs me. And she won't be Baby forever.

I mean, with my older dd we just talk over her experiences, with all different kinds of group leaders. And if she likes an activity enough overall, she stays in it and copes with the parts that she doesn't like so much. Or if there aren't enough positives to make up for the negatives, she doesn't go back.

And I'm sure that's how it will eventually be with my younger dd, at whatever point she's ready for that on her own timetable.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Not exactly. I could "sense" that she saw me as a mother in need of her help in learning to "be the adult" with my child. On one occasion, she rather "casually" talked to me about how important it is to expect our children to rise to our expectations. She said they really will do what we expect them to ... and though it was casual ... yeah, I could tell that she thought I was in need of some expert guidance.

Off topic I know, but this bugs me. My dd takes dance class and the first semester ds wanted to do a class too so we signed him up for gymnastics class. He loved it at first. About half way through the semester it became harder and harder to get him to stay in the class, he really wanted to be out in the waiting area just free playing with the siblings of kids who were in the class. I let them know that that after the end of that semester I would not be signing him back up. The owner, who is half my age, has no kids of his own lectured me the same way. That it's all about setting the expectation and expecting him to live up to it yadda yadda yadda. Ok...umm...he was three. Really? Why do I want to work overtime to manipulate him into doing something he doesn't want to do? Something that is costing me money? Sure, let me spend my hard earned money to force my child to do something he doesn't want to so that...what? Why? We still go there because dd LOVES it and the teachers are all great, but I admit to feeling less than warm and fuzzy about the owner, who probably thinks I'm not "firm" enough with my children. Whatever.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pepper44* 
I also don't understand why the OP's child has to be called her name of choice and be 100% respected as a child, but at the same time the DD doesn't have to respect the adults as is the cultural norm. It seems like a confusing double standard. If her DD insists on being called a pretend name that's fine, and why wouldn't she also have to call the adults ma'am and sir in return?

Where was it said that the adults requested that form of address and the OP's dd refused?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
And I think there's a LOT about the Montessori method that is wonderful for my dd. I guess I can't quite get on-board with all the concern that kids need adults to explain the difference between fantasy and reality.

Just to let you know, at our Montessori there's no concern at all that adults have to explain the difference to kids (beyond, for example, not letting a 'dinosaur' (kid) bite his friend in the name of reptilian habits







). The kids are accepted where they are, even if they're kittens that day. It's just that the kittens have to wash their hands.

In terms of focus, I think it's more that Montessori presents the 'real' world first, as a part of the teaching. At ours they also read fairy tales and that, but the curriculum is focused on the wonder of the natural world - tadpoles changing into frogs, the solar system, and so on.

And the materials are focused on that kind of exploration rather than having castles and knights. As a PP said, the adults don't present gnomes as fact. They present caterpillars.

So although I think there can be teachers who are more rigid who happen to be Montessori teachers, I don't think it follows that she's a Montessori teacher therefore she's rigid.


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Wow, Heather! You sound like a wonderful teacher.

I guess Kansas City's not near enough to St. Louis for us to drive out there every Sunday, LOL.


Maybe that's the thing...I'm not a great teacher! I am a mom. Maybe the fact that your SS teacher is a professional teacher makes her feel like she has to do more than just teach the kids about God. When I'm the SS teacher, I'm just a mom sharing the love of God with my friends' kids. I have no other goal than that. I don't have any interest in teaching these kids how to tie their shoes or "fall in line." And it's not just me. Alot of our SS teachers are young women with no kids (and some are teachers!) But they don't have an agenda besides teaching the kids who God is and what to do with that knowledge.

Ugh, I'm just frustrated for you. I hope that this one person doesn't put a cloud over your church going experience. Hey--I'll pray for that!

And yes, KC would be a bit of a drive, but if you're ever in the area...


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