# Letter to our pastor on spanking



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Recently, our pastor advocated spanking in a sermon. Dh and I were disturbed enough to write him a letter explaining our position, and I thought that you might find it interesting. Here it is:

Dear Pastor,

We are so grateful for all of the ways that you have helped us to connect in a closer way with God. This of course has had a profound influence on our parenting. Yet, in light of a recent sermon, we would like to present to you an alternative Christian view on disciplining children. Christians, of course, are probably the strongest proponents of spanking in the US. It is, so they say, their God given right---it's what the Bible teaches. That is exactly the point of contention and what we hope to humbly disprove.

Let's take the Old Testament. Some (our more literal-interpreting brothers) would say that it covers a period of about 4000-10,000 years; others (our more moderate and liberal brothers), anywhere between 10,000 to millions and millions of years. Irrespective of which view you hold, it has to be astounding that there is not one example of spanking in the whole Old Testament. This is especially impressive when you consider the large percentage of OT books which are more narrative than didactic. We might also add that there is no example of spanking in the New Testament, even though the time period is significantly shorter (around 100 years) and the majority of the books are didactic and not narrative. Now certainly there are some didactic passages in both Testaments that can be construed as being pro-spanking, however, they can be interpreted in a different light with sound exegesis.

Strange, isn't it, for a teaching that is so adamantly held by so many believers that it is not illustrated once in either Testament. But, even if no narrative biblical passage illustrates spanking, if it is plainly and consistently taught in didactic passages, then we must accept it as God ordained. In the Old Testament the only passages that can be construed as being pro-spanking are found in only one book: Proverbs. A good hermeneutical principal is to not build doctrine on poetic passages. The wisdom books are full of symbolism and hyperbole and are often a stumbling block to the more literal interpreting readers. The "rod" in these Proverbs passages that so many see as a license to spank is symbolic. This Hebrew word is often translated as shepherd's "staff/rod" or king's "scepter". So, if we were to be more literal, a closer translation would be bat and not twig! But that is not the author's intent. This "rod" is a symbol of authority and guidance, like a shepherd guiding his sheep or a king governing his people. This is why the Psalmist could joyfully exclaim: "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me" (Psalm 23:4). We do not wish to pass over this lightly, because these verses are the foundation of the Christian pro-spanking argument. However, to avoid repetition, we ask that you read the following links www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com and www.aolff.org for a detailed analysis of these passages.

It is somewhat puzzling that the people who insist that spanking is Old Testament mandated claim the passages from a poetic book, yet dismiss clear instructions from a didactic passage in the Torah to stone rebellious children (Deut. 21:18-21). Why the inconsistency? You claim that one passage is obviously morally wrong. We submit that both are morally wrong, especially in light of the culmination of God's progressive revelation---Jesus Christ, who taught us, among other things, that unless we "become like little children" we can never enter the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 18:3. See also Mt. 19:14). Implication: children are more in tune with God than adults. Which raises the question: should the unrighteous be punishing the righteous?

While the Old Testament is of great value, we recognize that no longer being under the Law changes how we apply some of the OT Scriptures to our daily lives. So even if spanking is Old Testament taught that doesn't mean it is New Testament endorsed. Throughout the New Testament the one passage used to support spanking is Hebrews 12:4-6. Going back to the original language there, however, also changes the meaning to the importance of discipline and authority in shaping a child, not physical punishment. God certainly disciplines us but He doesn't physically hit us when he does. Read the text. Proper exegesis shows that the pro-spanking people simply choose to read into this passage the very point they need to prove.

So, if there are no passages in either Testament that truly encourage spanking, then we must evaluate discipline according to other principles that the Bible teaches clearly. Jesus teaches us that we have two goals: to love God with all that we are, and to treat others the way we would like to be treated. Nowhere does He imply that His words do not apply to how we treat children. In fact, His interactions with children showed a special effort to value them and their feelings. He also tells us that whatever we do to the least of these we are doing to Him. Can you honestly say that you would want someone to hit you? I can't. I can say truthfully that I would want loving correction and instruction if I were doing something wrong, but being hit/spanked/popped/smacked would not be a part of it.

Jesus' example was that the one in authority had an even greater responsibility to act in love than the one under authority. We are to demonstrate the Fruit of the Spirit. Yet how is hitting a child compatible with the peace, patience, kindness and gentleness in which we are called to walk? The Bible is very specific about how we should deal with sin in others: We are taught that in correcting those who disobey to do so gently (Gal. 6:1). Parents are specifically cautioned to not cause their children to lose heart (Eph. 6:4). Having the people you love most in the world deliberately hurt you is pretty disheartening, regardless of any lofty motives they may claim.

The Bible is clear that parents have a responsibility to discipline their children. But discipline and spanking are not the same thing. Discipline is about making disciples, or teaching. It is difficult for children to focus on a life-lesson, though, if they are distracted by the anger, hurt, fear, humiliation and resentment that result from being hit. As career teachers, our professional education classes and our years of experience with students of many ages have convinced us that the research is correct in showing that people learn more effectively through positive reinforcement than from punishment (negative reinforcement). You have seen this in the family of (name removed), whose children are delightful to be around. They do not spank, but instead practice gentle discipline.

Another important point is that most of us are able to learn best from example--that is why Paul wrote to be imitators of him as beloved children. Kids are expert mimics. Too many children in our nation are learning that the way to respond to an offense is to hurt the offender. "Turning the other cheek" is not supposed to mean baring a child's bottom. We recognize that in other relationships of authority (employer/employee, police officer/civilian, pastor/church member, husband/wife) that physical punishment is inappropriate, even when correction is needed. Children are even more vulnerable-surely we can find better ways to correct them, as well.

When Christians teach spanking, the majority has several cute euphemisms to describe it and a list of guidelines as to how, when, and with what. There is absolutely no Biblical basis for any of them-they are essentially cultural. Whether you call it spanking, popping, smacking or hitting, they all mean to strike a child in order to produce pain and fear. Why do we feel the need to create so many guidelines: spank only on the bottom or legs, only X number of times, only with your hand/a switch/a paddle/PVC pipe (Michael and Debi Pearl, some of the most popular writers on spanking in Christian circles, advocate plastic plumbing pipe!). Is spanking on the bottom any better than the Waorani practice of slapping their children in the face with stinging nettles? Why, if neither results in permanent injury? If God didn't impose a limit on the number of times we strike a child, who is to say that 9 times is worse than 2? While not spanking in anger is at least more likely to avoid a total loss of control and avert serious physical injury, watching the person you love and trust more than any other calmly and deliberately choose to hurt you is a chilling experience.

I would submit that the reason behind the euphemisms and rules that Christians create is that our conscience is condemning us. We are aware on some level that hurting those who are smaller and weaker goes against the nature of Christ, and feel a need to justify and minimize what we are actually doing.

Another issue with spanking is that as the child grows, the spankings must get harder and longer in order to produce the same level of pain and fear. When do they eventually start to cross the line into abuse? Of course, most parents stop spanking once the child begins to approach them in size and maturity. We agree that then it is more appropriate to use the Biblical admonition, "Come now, let us reason together&#8230;". If the child is old enough to reason, spanking is unnecessary. If the child is too young to reason, then the child is too young to effectively understand what the parents are trying to teach, and the spanking is both cruel and pointless.

The false dichotomy that always pops up is that if parents don't spank, they are not disciplining their children. That suggests that parents are relying on spanking as their main or only form of discipline. Permissive, lazy parenting is neglect. The responsibility given to parents is a great, even fearsome one. By choosing not to spank, we have gained deeper insight into our children's hearts. It has challenged us to deal with anger and pride, and earnestly seek God's wisdom, patience and love. Proactive parenting is more "work" than spanking, but already the rewards have been great.

There are so many alternative ways to discipline that result in harmony and renewed connection between the parent and child. Teaching a child to do right is much more effective than executing judgment for doing wrong. When we as parents obey our directive to treat others as we want to be treated, it causes us to get behind the eyes of the child and deal with the root of the problem rather than just suppressing an outward behavior. It is amazing to see a cycle of irritability and frustration break when the parent chooses to discipline by restoring relationship. Many parents assume a time-out is the default choice if parents don't spank. However, often what children need is more time WITH the parents to reconnect, reassure and restore. Without turning an already lengthy letter into a book, if you are interested in other approaches, we would be happy to explain how we handle specific situations or direct you to sources that we have found beneficial.

The plan behind redemption is clear. God wants to reconnect with us. All of the history of the Law shows that merely punishing sin doesn't change the heart. What changes the hearts of our children is relationship. Obedience grows out of love and trust rather than a self-centered desire to avoid punishment. If children obey simply out of fear of being spanked, their motivation isn't righteous, but only self-centered.

As a child of God, my choice for obedience isn't based on a fear of punishment. It isn't a get-out-of-hell-free card for me. It is because I love Him and have learned to trust Him. My children are learning to obey for the same reasons. If my children do wrong and repent, for me to go ahead and hit them seems very inconsistent with the way that God has forgiven my mistakes. I have a responsibility to show the same grace toward my kids that I have received. It is God's kindness that leads us to repentance, not His wrath.

We have chosen to look at this from a Christian perspective, but we find it interesting that the research is overwhelmingly against spanking. The American Academy of Pediatrics, like many other professional organizations involving children and health, has issued a statement against corporal punishment on the grounds that it is not nearly as effective as positive reinforcement and that it can be harmful physically and emotionally. In fact, there are some indications that spanking is associated with increased delinquent and antisocial behavior, increased risk of child abuse and spousal abuse, increased risk of child and adult aggression, decreased child mental health and decreased adult mental health. Consider this in the light of Jesus' warning against causing little ones to stumble.

Sometimes it is difficult to discern what the Bible teaches on specific issues. You have often used the illustration of God playing hide and seek in order to encourage us to dig deeper and seek Him with all of our hearts. On the topic of spanking, He has given us glimpses of His heart--the parable of the unmerciful servant (Mt. 18:21-35), I John 4, James 2:13. None of these suggest ignoring or excusing sin, but they all teach us to be humble and loving as we show others, regardless of their age, a better way.

In closing, we chose to write this to you because of our respect for you. We know that you are someone who has the courage to look beyond the easy, superficial answers and the integrity to hold convictions that may not be popular. Believe us, in Christian circles not spanking is tantamount to heresy, but it is a very worthy cause. We humbly suggest that spanking is just another religiously transmitted disease. We love you and your family and are grateful that God has placed us under your spiritual leadership. May God bless you and your family.

Carlos and Dulce

The following list includes just some of the organizations that have issued a statement against spanking in the home:

* American Academy of Pediatrics
* American Humane Association
* American Orthopsychiatric Association
* Association for Childhood Education International
* California Medical Association
* Early Childhood Association of Florida
* Family Service of Milwaukee
* International Child Art Foundation
* National Association of Social Workers
* National Foster Parent Association
* Parents Anonymous
* Society for Adolescent Medicine
* United Methodist Church
* Wisconsin Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Excellent! I always thought of the "Spare the rod" statement as rod meaning a guiding staff, such as a shepherd uses, as well.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

What a beautiful letter!! I would love to hear how your pastor responds.


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## LastBestPlace (May 22, 2007)

That's an awesome letter - eloquent and well-reasoned. It really illustrates your main point; that gentle discipline takes more work than just resorting to spanking. You can tell how much time and thought you and your husband have put into this issue. Great job!


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## JustKiya (Feb 5, 2007)

That is a BEAUTIFUL letter, I hope that your pastor listens with an open heart and mind, and you will be able to update us about a later sermon full of wise discipline!


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Bravo! Very nicely written. I, too, would like to hear his response.


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## emdeecee_sierra (Oct 16, 2005)

wow that was excellent! And a major "GOOD JOB" for sending that to your pastor!!!

Will you update us with his reaction, if any? Please?

Also, would you mind if I sent this on to my MIL and perhaps some other family members via private email? MIL especially, since she is rather religious and DH, MIL, and I have, on several occasions, gotten into heated debates re: spanking (them against me).

Again, excellent job, I really admire you for writing this.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thank you so much for the replies! BTW, the name of the family with the great kids that I x-ed out for privacy is Teachinma of 3









Anyone is more than welcome to pass this on.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Wow. I would looove to hear a positive update on this thread. Amazing letter.
Thanks for sharing.
Lisa


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

nice letter and I learned alot









thanks for sharing
peace,
robyn


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## dooldad (Mar 23, 2005)

Beautiful letter. I just imagine how many children can be saved from spankings(and whatever else it leads to) if your pastor would preach that.

I'm always amazed at the people that are very involved in their church, that look at me funny when they find out we don't spank. I don't know the bible at all, but I've always thought, what would Jesus do, or teach. I sure can't imagine Jesus spanking a child.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Well written letter and I think it will really appeal to the conservative Christian crowd, especially an educated person such as I presume your pastor is.









Looking forward to hearing what his response is.


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## McMandy (May 18, 2007)

I snagged this letter and saved it on my computer (hope you don't mind), because spanking is an issue between my husband and I.

Thanks for posting! Well thought out!


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Awesome! Would you keep us updated on what comes of it?


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## jenkuh (Mar 31, 2006)




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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Lovely - hopefully he'll open his heart.

Please update when you can.

God bless!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

A wonderful letter!

Whenever I encounter this issue I wish that I had a better knowlege of the Bible to be able to argue more convincingly. For me, it is a matter of simple common sense. Would a loving God advocate beating a defenceless child? It is ridiculous to suggest that He would. Would a shepherd beat his sheep into submission? Heck no. But that argument does not hold water when you are faced with people who know their Bible inside out and choose to interpret it as advocating violence against children.









I would love to hear your pastor's response. Keep us posted!


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## MommaLyon (Apr 11, 2007)

That was beautiful!!







:


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Wow! I got chills many times while reading that. I've been struggling with approaching our pastor on this very issue. I just didn't have the eloquance that you have. Can I print this and tweak it a little and give it to our pastor?







: It really covers everything I would have wanted to say to him, in a respectful, loving, intelligent tone. Thank you so much for your beautiful letter and words of wisdom. God bless you and your family.


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## tessandturtle (Apr 24, 2007)

Thank you, dulce de leche! I read this letter aloud to my husband and it finally convinced him not to spank (I think the biggest reason he continued to advocate it was because his father spanked and slapped him. I believe the psychological concept is called "imaginary crime"-- if a child doesn't emulate his parent, he somehow betrays him.)

I'd also like to save this letter, if it's okay. I'd love to be able to print it out when the issue eventually will arise with my MIL and FIL.

And I'd love to hear updates!


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

You bring up so many great points! Do you mind if I print this out?


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Thank you for so beautifully stating your beliefs on thismatter, which happen to be my own also. I hope you do not mind if I save this as one of the tools in my box, in the event my family or church friends ever feel the need to question or condemn my parenting practices with regard to discipline.


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## mama k nj (Dec 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
Excellent! I always thought of the "Spare the rod" statement as rod meaning a guiding staff, such as a shepherd uses, as well.









Me too! That's how I always took those passages. Like where is says in the Psalms "Thy rod and staff they comfort me"


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## calidarling (Jul 14, 2006)

It is so nice to see someone with a fresh view on things. What a wonderful letter!


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

did you get a response from your letter?


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

This part is my favorite. That is an absolutely awesome and very brave letter. You and your family are a marvel.

"I would submit that the reason behind the euphemisms and rules that Christians create is that our conscience is condemning us. We are aware on some level that hurting those who are smaller and weaker goes against the nature of Christ, and feel a need to justify and minimize what we are actually doing."


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## amylizpat (Oct 14, 2005)

Wow, absolutely wonderful letter! Do you mind if I post it on my blog, crediting your excellent writing, of course? Please let us know when your pastor responds. My brother is a pro-spanking pastor, and i can't to let him read this. Much better way of putting it then my typical angry way at Xmas dinner.


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thank you all so much for the kind words! Anyone is welcome to pass it on or post it.


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## the2amigos (Apr 27, 2005)

Incredible letter!! Please do let us know his response!! (Saving to computer....)


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

No update, Dulce? I'm guessing you haven't had a response yet? Has the pastor received the letter yet?


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## FelixMom (Aug 28, 2006)

Well written, Dulce!

I too will be saving this letter to show my brother, who somehow thinks its okay to spank smaller and weaker children for discipline's sake. True, sadly our parents brought us up that way, but DH and I made a commitment NOT to discipline our children this way...


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## oregongirlie (Mar 14, 2006)

Wow. That is wonderful -- and I'm an atheist!







Seriously, you might consider submitting this to Christian magazines for publication. It's really great.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Beautiful letter!! You presented the truth so gracefully too!

As someone who has a BA in Theology and a lot of experience with pastors, I would encourage you to also give more exegesis on those particular rod verses. Regardless of how persuasive all of your other arguments are and how true they are, if your pastor isn't convinced that it's not scriptural and isn't convinced of what those verses really mean, I doubt that he/she will change their view. Just speaking from experience...

Maybe some of the stuff on my blog would be really helpful as I deal with the verses at length along with their Hebrew meanings. Feel free to cut and paste into a second follow-up info letter. Just please ref the blog so maybe he/she can read it and learn more.

www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com

Let us know how it goes.
Praying for you!!


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

wow, brilliantly written!!!


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## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

That is a beautiful and well-written letter!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
Beautiful letter!! You presented the truth so gracefully too!

As someone who has a BA in Theology and a lot of experience with pastors, I would encourage you to also give more exegesis on those particular rod verses. Regardless of how persuasive all of your other arguments are and how true they are, if your pastor isn't convinced that it's not scriptural and isn't convinced of what those verses really mean, I doubt that he/she will change their view. Just speaking from experience...

Maybe some of the stuff on my blog would be really helpful as I deal with the verses at length along with their Hebrew meanings. Feel free to cut and paste into a second follow-up info letter. Just please ref the blog so maybe he/she can read it and learn more.

www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com

Let us know how it goes.
Praying for you!!









I am sorry that it took me so long to respond to this. I just now had a chance to read your blog, and I am unable to come up with words to say how wonderful you are. Wow. I wish that we had been able to include your blog in our original letter, but we will certainly direct others to it. Thank you so, so much for what you have written. I especially like the way that it goes beyond the issue of spanking into other aspects of graceful parenting. Would you write a book? I would buy it if you did, and probably extra copies to pass out to people. Thank you again!


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## archibaldbc (Jun 28, 2007)

Wow, I love that. And I love that you stand up for what you believe in.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Bumping because I'm curious to hear if there's an update...a response?


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

What a beautiful letter. I am taking notes for my next visit back home! Thank you. Looking forward to the update.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Will you send that off to my (ex) church? (see my thread)

~Tracy


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## rainy32 (Apr 27, 2004)

what a beautiful, well written letter. I really hope that you get a positive and thoughtful response from your pastor!


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
I am sorry that it took me so long to respond to this. I just now had a chance to read your blog, and I am unable to come up with words to say how wonderful you are. Wow. I wish that we had been able to include your blog in our original letter, but we will certainly direct others to it. Thank you so, so much for what you have written. I especially like the way that it goes beyond the issue of spanking into other aspects of graceful parenting. Would you write a book? I would buy it if you did, and probably extra copies to pass out to people. Thank you again!


I was trying to write a book, but couldn't do it fast enough for people who were asking me questions, so I decided to blog it. I do hope to publish it as a book sometime later. So glad you found it helpful and please do direct people to it. I just started it a few wks ago and am eager to get word out about it. Thank You!!

So anyway, what happened with your pastor? Did he respond?


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

No response yet. :sigh: I'm not sure if that means that he is thinking deeply about it, is really busy and hasn't had time to respond, or disagrees but doesn't want to debate. However, I imagine that if it were simply that he remains unconvinced he would at least send a generic "You raised some interesting points" response. Of course, I may have just sent it to the wrong email address.







I will definitely share a reply if we get one!

Even if he never read it, we have been so encouraged by the people who have read it and responded.


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## leewd (Aug 14, 2005)

Dulce - I've been watching this thread hoping for an update. If you ever get a reply, I'm sure we would all love to hear.

Thanks!
--LEE


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

truly a christ-inspired letter! any response yet?


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Wow - I'm not a Christian but that letter was spot-on, and so well written and eloquent, and gentle, to boot!

I think Attached Mama's point about needing more exegesis is important, and perhaps you might want to follow it up with a few more texts from the bible with her link.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

still hoping you get a reply....


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm not a Christian either, but I wanted to respond ... that letter was very well written, well thought out and researched, and just plain wonderful. I hope you get a reply from your pastor soon.


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## TirzhaZ (Jun 15, 2007)

That was absolutely beautilful. I know, I know. Everyone keeps saying the same thing, but I wanted to chime in anyway. I am printing it out and sharing it with my mother. She will LOVE it as she is very against spanking. I can't wait to hear your pastor's response. Thank you for sharing this with us.


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

just bumping b/c i really want to know...so do you think you're going to get a response, or what?


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

Did you get a reply?


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## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

Have you considered hand delivering it to him, in a nice envelope? He may say "I got your e-mail" and you can reply something like "Well, I never got a response, and this is a very important topic for me as a member of this church, so I thought that I could hand deliver it to you and make personal contact at the same time". Sometime face to face and written letter is harder to dismiss than an e-mail. It may seem more "real".

Great letter. May I copy it, modify it a bit to make it more personal, and send it to my husband's parents and other relatives? They are all highly conservative pentecostal Christians, but are also very educated and intellectual. They may get a lot out of that letter.


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## november21 (Feb 14, 2007)

BEAUTIFUL.

Personally yes I would hand deliver it to him, in addition to this if I did not get a reply, I would personally make as many copies necessary to put under the windshields of every church member in the parking lot while services were in session. To teach such thinking, that's the kind of thing that makes Christians look bad. YES I AM A CHRISTIAN.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I sent your letter, via email, to all of the pastoral staff (6 or 7 people) at my ex church with a note on top saying someone had sent this to THEIR pastor after the pastor advocating hitting children, and that I thought the letter was worth passing along (after all, isn't national child abuse prevention week upon us?).

That was about 24 hours ago, and I just got one response from the older woman pastor, who said she chose to parent her children a different way, but could see the points of the letter.

~Tracy


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 

That was about 24 hours ago, and I just got one response from the older woman pastor, who said she chose to parent her children a different way, but could see the points of the letter.

~Tracy

Well. WTF?







:


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Wow--I was just going to look up the thread, and here it was already bumped!







Dh just told me that we had used the wrong email address, so we decided to modify it a bit with some of the suggestions here and another point that dh wanted to add. We will do so and let you know the response.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Wow--I was just going to look up the thread, and here it was already bumped!







Dh just told me that we had used the wrong email address, so we decided to modify it a bit with some of the suggestions here and another point that dh wanted to add. We will do so and let you know the response.

Oh...OOOPS!

I'm glad it was user error that led to the mistake and not the pastor ignoring you though


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama* 
I just got one response from the older woman pastor, who said she chose to parent her children a different way, but could see the points of the letter.

~Tracy









: I hope the OP gets a more positive response, and that maybe some others you've sent it to have more positive responses. Sigh.


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## leewd (Aug 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama*
I just got one response from the older woman pastor, who said she chose to parent her children a different way, but could see the points of the letter.

~Tracy









: I hope the OP gets a more positive response, and that maybe some others you've sent it to have more positive responses. Sigh.

I actually consider this a very positive response. She acknowlegded that the letter-writer had made a good point. This is a wonderful place to start a dialogue.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

If you are modifying the letter, you might want to consider some of the points made in this thread to add: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=726290


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I appreciated the one response I did get from the one pastor. I still got no responses from anyone else though, and here it is a few weeks later.

If there is one thing I have learned about pastors, it is that they DO NOT want to be questioned. How lovely.

I'm curious to see the response the op gets now that their pastor will hopefully get the letter.

~Tracy


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

:


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

just checking for updates


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## VivC (Jan 4, 2008)

Okay...yes, I'm bumping a five-month-old thread. I'm pathetic. But I'm very curious to hear whether you ever heard from the pastor.

And I wanted to say that I confess to occasionally giving my 20-month-old a tap on the hand when he keeps defiantly reaching for something...sometimes, after ten timeouts for the same transgression, it's hard to think of anything else to try!

I was raised in an abusive environment, and I've prided myself on "only" tapping his hand...so much worse was done to me, after all. For some time, though, I've been feeling that there must be better methods of discipline. They're very hard to find in Christian circles, however. But the look in his eyes after his hand is tapped....it's heartbreaking.

Thanks to your link to aolff, I'm off to find other ways to handle our discipline issues.

Thank you!


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## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

VivC,







: It is so hard to break out of the patterns we grow up with! I am so glad that you are creating a new and healthy pattern with your ds! I bumped the pastor's response for you, and wanted to add that we revised the letter. It also includes a link to www.gracefulparenting.blogspot.com that has been very helpful to me.


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## auntiehallie (Apr 25, 2005)

i copied this letter also, and relayed it to my SIL via email. we were just having a discussion about this over the holidays, and though she was working from the usual tired secularly based pro-hitting arguments, she is very christian while i am very.. not. LOL and i think sometimes she may use this difference, in her mind, to discredit ideas i present just because 'we're different people' or some other such nonsense, e.g. 'well, your sister is a hippie buddhist - we can expect not to agree, right?'

but you made really excellent points. (whoever heard of a shepherd beating his flock with the staff? you can't even imagine it, it's so ridiculous.)

anyway. thanks again for posting a great letter. it really was inspired.







:


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

bumping for a really awesome letter. I'm going to save it.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

subbing


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dooldad* 
Beautiful letter. I just imagine how many children can be saved from spankings(and whatever else it leads to) if your pastor would preach that.

I'm always amazed at the people that are very involved in their church, that look at me funny when they find out we don't spank. I don't know the bible at all, but I've always thought, what would Jesus do, or teach. I sure can't imagine Jesus spanking a child.

Exactly. My friend has a bumper sticker that reads "Who Would Jesus Spank?"
And thanks, OP from this *Buddhist* mama. It has always driven me







: to hear people claim that spanking is a parents' *Christian duty*. Now I have some wise words to share from a Christian mama who clearly knows her stuff









Thanks!!


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## Way Up North (Sep 15, 2007)

Beautiful letter, I am glad this was bumped








I do hope some response was given to such heartfelt, wise and challenging words from the leadership.

Quote:

If there is one thing I have learned about pastors, it is that they DO NOT want to be questioned. How lovely.
Please don't generalize, some of us enjoy it


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Thank you for bumping!


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

well?


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## leewd (Aug 14, 2005)

link
to response thread


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## nevaehsmommy (Aug 6, 2007)

love it.


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