# My friend spanks her one year old!!



## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't even know what to say... it took me a week to even decide to post this.

I have a friend who is very mainstream, but also very educated. She vaccinates, but did all the research and decided to vax based on risk vs. benefit. She formula fed, but tried her darndest to breastfeed. She had a c-section and recently told me how inadequate that made her feel, that she "couldn't" birthe her baby naturally. (she was coerced into an induction which resulted in a section.) So I mean, she does a lot of mainstream things, but isn't like, aggressive about it. Do you know the kind of person I'm talking about?

Well anyway, she came over to my house last week. Her daughter is 2 weeks older than mine, 18 months.

Her daughter kept taking toys from my daughter, and I was sitting on the floor calmly helping them "share," because, hello. They're babies, they don't have the concept of sharing. Well, her daughter took a toy from mine, and hit my daughter, so my friend grabbed her baby and spanked her on the butt, hard! She yelled "We don't HIT PEOPLE!" as she was hitting her!!







:

Now, I would not call myself Ms. Gentle Discipline. I don't believe in or practice consensual living or anything like that, and we do have rules and boundaries and limitations in our house. Sadly, there have been spankings in our house, before I knew better, but even then they were few and far between, and more of a swat on a defiant bottom than ever actually injuring my child. (We no longer use any form of hitting to discipline.)

Anyway, my friend didn't notice my funny look and went on her way. i didn't know what to say so I said nothing, and just comforted her crying baby. We played for a while longer, and then another incident came up. This time, both babies were fighting over a toy, and there was hair pulling and crying on both sides. I took my daughter away from the situation, talking about "hands to ourselves," etc. She grabbed her daughter from where the girls were playing and spanked her twice, hard.

I was just so shocked! I didn't know what to say and I feel terrible for not standing up for her baby. I did say something about how in our family, we don't use our hands for hurting other people, but it went over her head. "I didn't hurt her, she needs to learn we don't hit people." I wanted to say "Well good job teaching _that_ one, lady," but didn't.

Sorry this got so long. I just needed to tell someone who would understand why this was a big deal to me.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

Sorry you had to witness that


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

You need to talk to her about the irony in hitting to teach not to hit. Poor baby, it must be so bewildering to be physically hurt by a mama








Im not sure about wher you are, but in Canada there is a law against spanking under 2yrs.


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## Freefromitall (Sep 15, 2008)

How about casually sharing a book that has more "alt." methods of teaching, something more gentle?
Sort of, "You know, we've been having some issues w/XYZ, and I just found SOO much helpful advice in this book! I just had to pass it on"


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

"We don't hit in my house. Please do not hit your child in my house."

I've had to say this to my sister. I make sure to let her know I am serious and she will be leaving if she hits anyone in my house.


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## k9sarchik (Nov 11, 2006)

That is just tragic. If you are going to remain friends with her then you are going to have to confront her because it will get worse.
Either get her a book on gentle discipline, or try to find some parenting classes that you can sign up for together.

That poor little girl.


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## um_hanna (Nov 3, 2004)

perhaps this is how she was taught. be gentle with her, and try to show a alt view. we all do better when we know better. most of us







just try to love her unconditionally and show the alt way by your way of being gentle etc. the irony of its ok for an adult to hit but not a child to hit, i just dont get it.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
I don't even know what to say... it took me a week to even decide to post this.

I have a friend who is very mainstream, but also very educated. She vaccinates, but did all the research and decided to vax based on risk vs. benefit. She formula fed, but tried her darndest to breastfeed. She had a c-section and recently told me how inadequate that made her feel, that she "couldn't" birthe her baby naturally. (she was coerced into an induction which resulted in a section.) So I mean, she does a lot of mainstream things, but isn't like, aggressive about it. Do you know the kind of person I'm talking about?

Well anyway, she came over to my house last week. Her daughter is 2 weeks older than mine, 18 months.

Her daughter kept taking toys from my daughter, and I was sitting on the floor calmly helping them "share," because, hello. They're babies, they don't have the concept of sharing. Well, her daughter took a toy from mine, and hit my daughter, so my friend grabbed her baby and spanked her on the butt, hard! She yelled "We don't HIT PEOPLE!" as she was hitting her!!







:

*Now, I would not call myself Ms. Gentle Discipline. I don't believe in or practice consensual living or anything like that, and we do have rules and boundaries and limitations in our house.* Sadly, there have been spankings in our house, before I knew better, but even then they were few and far between, and more of a swat on a defiant bottom than ever actually injuring my child. (We no longer use any form of hitting to discipline.)

Anyway, my friend didn't notice my funny look and went on her way. i didn't know what to say so I said nothing, and just comforted her crying baby. We played for a while longer, and then another incident came up. This time, both babies were fighting over a toy, and there was hair pulling and crying on both sides. I took my daughter away from the situation, talking about "hands to ourselves," etc. She grabbed her daughter from where the girls were playing and spanked her twice, hard.

I was just so shocked! I didn't know what to say and I feel terrible for not standing up for her baby. I did say something about how in our family, we don't use our hands for hurting other people, but it went over her head. "I didn't hurt her, she needs to learn we don't hit people." I wanted to say "Well good job teaching _that_ one, lady," but didn't.

Sorry this got so long. I just needed to tell someone who would understand why this was a big deal to me.

to the bolded - I am 100% gentle discipline and we have rules and boundaries and limitations. Do you understand what gentle discipline is? It seems that some people dont understand what gentle discipline is and confuse it with being permissive. im glad to hear you have stopped using hitting as a form of discipline. I would not qualify spanking as discipline anyway - its cruel treatment and I see it as a "punishment".

Now hitting an 18 month old. that would make me sick. I would not allow that in my home, and if I were in their home I would leave and tell my children on the way out the door that that parent was out of control and adults should know not to hit and that children shouldnt hit either which is what they are learning. I could not be friends with a person who is abusive, and in my opinion hitting a child hard at the age of 18 months IS most definitely abuse. its very sad. that mom sounds very angry and violent when dealing with her small child. very very sad.


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## kolleen9 (May 27, 2006)

I think the time to have said something about hitting her kid for hitting is passed. At that moment you could of asked her to see the irony.

Now that it's passed, I would approach her and let her know how disturbing you found it. Explain that you might of been so disturbed because you saw yourself in her and now that you have found a better/kinder way to approach a situation that maybe she'd like to hear about it.

Sorry to hear about your ordeal, I'm' sure it wasn't easy to witness.

-Kolleen


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## suziek (Jun 4, 2004)

You asked and so I'll tell you what I think.

Would you have remained silent if someone where smacking a dog? How about an adult hitting an elderly or disabled person? Would you continue to socialize with a man who yanked his wife by the arm, wagged a finger in her face and hit her in your presence? I could go on but you get my point.

I think the posters who suggest you might help the child more by offering her information and support about finding a better, less abusive way to be with her child are right. I just can't quite stomach the thought of watching a baby be hit several times. And having my own child witness this.

Who knows what happens to this child when no one is watching.

Poor, poor babe.


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## FullMetalMom (Aug 27, 2008)

I would not allow my child to be exposed to this. I agree with the pp, tell her there is no physical abuse allowed in your home, period. I personally would have a lot of trouble being friends with someone like that - she is abusing her child.


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## earthgirl (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suziek* 
You asked and so I'll tell you what I think.

Would you have remained silent if someone where smacking a dog? How about an adult hitting an elderly or disabled person? Would you continue to socialize with a man who yanked his wife by the arm, wagged a finger in her face and hit her in your presence? I could go on but you get my point.


With all due respect, it is not always easy to know how you would react in these types of situations. You make a good point, but responding the "right" way does not always come naturally or easily to some people.

To the OP, I really feel for you on this one, and I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed. Aside from the obvious issue that her hitting her baby is wrong, there is also the issue of your own DD witnessing it. It is not going to be an easy conversation to have, to be sure, but you have to do it. I think you could just say you have a no hitting rule, like pp said, but maybe you'll want have more of an in-depth conversation? Either way, it needs to be brought up. I'm really sorry you have to deal with this, and even sorrier for her baby.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

I have a friend who slaps her 1 year old's hand, what I would term "forceful re-direction" when she about to do something dangerous (touch something hot, electrical outlets, etc.) I thought that was bad enough. But seriously, this mom who spanks to teach a 1year old not to hit? If she doesn't see the major fallacy in that, I would be concerned about having more play dates with her.


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## lerlerler (Mar 31, 2004)

"they can be SO infuriating, can't they?
I have found "inset fav GD book here" to be so helpful when dealing with children of this age it certainly helped me!... regardless though, we have a "no hitting" rule in this house, please respect it.. pass the bean dip"


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FullMetalMom* 
I would not allow my child to be exposed to this. I agree with the pp, tell her there is no physical abuse allowed in your home, period. I personally would have a lot of trouble being friends with someone like that - she is abusing her child.

I think this could lead to a GREAT series of discussions w your child (yes, even at this age, although much more in years to come) about how _people_ aren't bad or good, but _behaviors_ are bad or good, and even people we like, even ourselves, can do bad behavior. Good start to teaching body safety too (since most sexual abuse and almost all physical abuse is performed by people the victim knows, NOT a stranger).

If this is a really good friend, you could even have a metadiscussion about morality, starting w how you plan to teach body safety, then that you recognize there may be differences in whether we include hitting on that Bad Behavior list (that is, in what circumstances hitting is okay, for you never, for her by parents to teach), but that after much thought you have to say that in your home the behavior of hitting, by anyone, is not allowed. And you hope you can still be friends (if you do).

ETA: I find the issue of development of personal ethics fascinating. I was abused as a child so knew, before I ever became a parent, that I would not and could not spank. I kinda figured every abused kid grew up with the same personal rule, but I have been amazed to find how it's often just the opposite - that formerly abused people abuse their own kids, saying they "don't know better." Huh; I thought counterexample was a great teacher, and for me it has been - GD is quite easy and I'm happy to say I've never yelled. Well, that's enough OT for this thread! Anyway, my point is that perhaps, unlike you, your friend has not sat down and determined her personal ethics regarding hitting. Your discussion could help her think it through.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

^I agree with that to an extent. Though I plan to use it as an opportunity to teach my child about this while at the same time cutting that person out of my life. I think that would really drive home the fact to my kids that you dont need abusive people in your life and that you should not tolerate it. you also have to consider the age. If they dont yet understand your word all they are seeing are these bad actions but arent understanding you explaining that its not okay - it would send a mixed message IMO.

I would want to help the mom for the sake of her child - but if she wasnt willing to change her ways, at least in front of my own children, then I would no longer associate with that person until they were. I rather have no friends and my children be clear that this behavior (abusive) is NOT okay. My family is more important to me then having friends - though it is nice to have them dont get me wrong.

BTW - ITA with what you are saying in the end there seasons - my mom wast abusive 'per say' but she was a hitter and I knew I would not and could not ever hit my kids - its amazing how some people continue the cycle, but that seems to be more common. They say they dnt know a better way - well I didnt either but I went out and found one because I knew hitting wasnt a good way. I admit, sometimes it takes everything in me not to yell, or sometimes I need to go cool down before talking to them because I get very angry. That is my natural reaction because of how I was raised. It's very hard to change these "habits" even if they are things you have never personally done if you were raised that way for some people its an automatic response that needs to be controlled while new (healthy and appropriate) habits are formed. I spent 18 years as the child as a spanker/yellee. I only have 3 1/2 years experience as a parent who isnt a spanker/yeller. While it wouldnt ever feel right to do those things, It's still not always my natural reaction to be gentle. I know the parent I want to be though - for some people maybe its easy - for me it is work. I think it will get easier with time.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suziek* 
Who knows what happens to this child when no one is watching.

Do you have any grounds at all for making that kind of nasty insinuation? Believe it or not, many people who spank their children in that kind of situation are actually not hiding any kind of horrible beatings or horrific abuse.

OP: I agree with those who say you should provide her with info on other ways to discipline. Many people were spanked themselves growing up and don't see it as harmful. I struggle with that myself. I never felt harmed, betrayed or abused by spanking, and have no emotional issue about it, but I've also decided it's not how I want to parent. Many people don't realize there are other ways to do things.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Lisa I think its great that even though spanking didnt harm you personally, that you realize it could harm another child, and that you don't take that risk with your own children. Too many people reason its okay because it didnt bother them. truth is - you can't determine that it wont effect your child just because it didnt effect you - its obvious some people are effected negatively by it - even children from the same parents may be effected differently by the same type of spankings - its just not worth the risk to assume it wont hurt your child (generally speaking) just because it didnt hurt you (generally speaking).

My mom definitely put on a facade when we had company. she was like a light switch! The friend from the OP may not be hiding anything - but she may. you don't know either way. and to me what she is doing in front of the OP is abuse as it stands. Assumptions aren't always a bad thing. I think it would be better to assume a child who is treated that way publicly may be being abused, then to assume they are not when in reality they are. I mean if you are wrong you are wrong, but children have died at the hands of their abusers because other friends and family members assumed it WASNT anything more then the parent being "hard on them"... there was a child in the news (I believe 18 months old) recently beat to death over a potty training accident. Friends and family never realized the extent things were going to and so had never reported it or said anything about it. I bet that child had wished someone had assumed things were worse behind closed doors.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Depending on how close we were I might find an opportune time and say to her, "Honey, I love you and [daughter's name]. I adore you both to pieces. I keep thinking the other day about how you spanked [daughter's name], and you told me you were doing it because she needed to learn how she can't hit other people. Because you are such a brilliant woman, I have to say I am a little stunned that you think you can teach little [daughter's name] not to hit BY HITTING HER." Then I would take a silent deep breath and sit with the uncomfortable silence until she says something. The less said on my part, the better. The irony will come 'round to her.

I *wouldn't* make an argument how spanking is bad. Baby steps. She is bound to become defensive if you jump in with that (and also if you said "I love you but..." try to avoid the word "but" in whatever you say, as it too leads to defensiveness). I'd focus mainly on the irony of the particular situation you witnessed.

If in our discussions it became abundantly clear that she wasn't going to stop hitting as a method of training her daughter not to hit, at that point I'd just say, "Well, I just don't want [my kid's name] to see that." It makes clear your disapproval without being demanding about the whole thing, and it is direct enough for a first time discussion.

Then, only if she did it again when we got together, I would say, "I'm not okay with you doing that, and I am not going to stand around and watch it. I think we need to cut this short." And then cut the visit short.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
My mom definitely put on a facade when we had company. she was like a light switch! The friend from the OP may not be hiding anything - but she may. you don't know either way. and to me what she is doing in front of the OP is abuse as it stands. Assumptions aren't always a bad thing. I think it would be better to assume a child who is treated that way publicly may be being abused, then to assume they are not when in reality they are. I mean if you are wrong you are wrong, but children have died at the hands of their abusers because other friends and family members assumed it WASNT anything more then the parent being "hard on them"... there was a child in the news (I believe 18 months old) recently beat to death over a potty training accident. Friends and family never realized the extent things were going to and so had never reported it or said anything about it. I bet that child had wished someone had assumed things were worse behind closed doors.

We should just report everybody then. I've seen people who are _nasty_ to their children behind closed doors, and butter wouldn't melt in their mouths when they're out in public. OTOH, every person I've personally known who is hard on their kid in public is pretty much the same at home. You can't tell by public behaviour. (Obviously, if someone is beating the crap out of their child in a parking lot, the child is being abused, even by legal standards, because it's happening right in front of you.)

I _despise_ the "what is going on behind closed doors" way of thinking. I've been on the receiving end of it too many times, for one thing. (For a couple of years when ds1 was little, I was at the end of my rope, and really hard on him - verbally - when we were out in public. 99+% of the time, I was much, much gentler at home, as I didn't have the same stresses once we were back indoors. For the remaining fraction of a percentage of the time, I was equally as hard on him, and _once_, I lost my temper and smacked him...which ended up with me on the floor crying and apologizing and begging his forgiveness.) For another, it seems like a cheap way to assume a particular kind of moral superiority that turns my stomach. There was _nothing_ in the OP to warrant that kind of comment.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sierra* 
Depending on how close we were I might find an opportune time and say to her, "Honey, I love you and [daughter's name]. I adore you both to pieces. I keep thinking the other day about how you spanked [daughter's name], and you told me you were doing it because she needed to learn how she can't hit other people. Because you are such a brilliant woman, I have to say I am a little stunned that you think you can teach little [daughter's name] not to hit BY HITTING HER." Then I would take a silent deep breath and sit with the uncomfortable silence until she says something. The less said on my part, the better. The irony will come 'round to her.

Yeah - this is actually better than starting out by providing info. I'd also make it clear that you don't want your child around that, if it happens again. The "there is _no_ hitting in my house" statement is also great - you have every right to lay down the rules that apply in your home.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
(For a couple of years when ds1 was little, I was at the end of my rope, and really hard on him - verbally - when we were out in public. 99+% of the time, I was much, much gentler at home, as I didn't have the same stresses once we were back indoors.

As I work intimately with a lot of families, I see this a lot. When we are out and about with our own children, many of us tend to be more tense or harder on our kids, *whatever* our discipline style (whether we are generally gentle discipliners or not).

This definitely could have been the case in the OP. The mom could have been worried that if she didn't respond sternly enough with her daughter, that her friend (the mom of the child with whom her child was fighting) would be mad and think she wasn't handling the situation. That kind of perception of, "I better let them know I am handling this," is common among parents when they are out with their kids. For her, she could have responded to the internal pressure of that perception with something she believes to be very stern: spanking. It may indeed be something she rarely if ever uses at home.

I'm not excusing the behavior. I don't believe in spanking. But I am trying to explain that I definitely did not get the feeling of "just think what happens behind closed doors" from this particular post. Quite the opposite.


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## JennaW (Oct 11, 2007)

Yikes! It is so difficult to watch those we care about do things that are so revolting to us.

I think if I were you, I would probably write my friend a letter or e-mail. I really prefer to communicate in this way when there is an important issue at hand because it allows me to collect my thoughts and express them in exactly the way I want to.

It might go something like this:

Dear Susan,

I was really happy you came to visit me the other day. It is so amazing to see our little girls growing up and all that comes with it. I know that sometimes the things my DD does are very frustrating and I will admit I even feel embarrassed by her behavior at times.

When you came to visit the girls were having a hard time sharing and there were a few times your DD hit my DD. I just want you to know that I don't see this behavior as a reflection of bad parenting, it is totally normal for children of this age to hit. However, I must be honest and let you know that I was very upset by the spankings you gave your DD as a punishment. I was upset that my DD witnessed this as well. I am having a hard time understanding why you would do that. I also don't think spanking as a consequence for hitting makes sense, quite frankly.

I write this to you as a friend because I respect you enough to be honest. What happened at my home the other day bothered me and made me feel sad. With that in mind, I need you to know that during future visits there will be no spanking in my home, in public or private areas. If you choose to use spanking as a form of discipline in your home then we will not be able to visit there as I do not want my daughter exposed to spanking.

If you are feeling overwhelmed and would be interested in some resources I have found to be helpful, I would be happy to provide them. I hope you can see this letter comes out of a place of love and concern, not judgement.

Your Friend,

Your Name

I know many people on this board will think this is "too nice". So be it. If this person is really your friend, telling them "off" isn't really going to solve anything. You can always give a second chance. If your friend continues to hit her child or show no change in attitude, then it might be time to say "It's been nice but our values are too different for me to have an honest relationship with you."


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I think thats a great general letter Jenna I may need to save it, because I have a very hard time being nice about things like that even though I would want to be


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

im not saying to report everyone I'm just saying if you see someone acting in even a slighly abusive way (such as spanking an 18 month old HARD!) then you should consider the fact there may be more to it then what you are seeing. All I'm saying, is children have died because people ignored warning signs of abuse like these in the past. I agree with what is being said that the friend of the OP was just trying to show she was handling the situation. It may be less severe at home. But IDK, guess I'm in the minority - but hitting AN 18 MONTH OLD BABY!!! HARD!!! that in itself is abuse. that right there should be a big red flag surrounded by flashing lights and honking horns that something is wrong.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

also - if it meant less children would die because less abuse would be overlooked, i would not be in the slightest offended if people wondered what on behind closed doors at my home. We were in this situation recently. My sons school threatened to call a case worker if we didnt update or emergency contact info by a certain date because they could reach us by phone (we had JUST moved, and they didnt even try contacting any of the other numbers on the contact sheer) So while I was initially offended, and while I did make the situation clear and told the person if they had spoken to the teacher before sending home that note they would have had a totally different outlook, in retrospect I was glad that the school nurse cares enough about the children to not overlook any signs of POSSIBLE neglect or abuse. More people should be like that. Less people should look the other way. And less people should be offended by it, ESPECIALLY if they have nothing to hide.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Do you have any grounds at all for making that kind of nasty insinuation? Believe it or not, many people who spank their children in that kind of situation are actually not hiding any kind of horrible beatings or horrific abuse.

OP: I agree with those who say you should provide her with info on other ways to discipline. Many people were spanked themselves growing up and don't see it as harmful. I struggle with that myself. I never felt harmed, betrayed or abused by spanking, and have no emotional issue about it, but I've also decided it's not how I want to parent. Many people don't realize there are other ways to do things.

Thank you. I *am not* advocating spanking, but my mom spanked on occasion. I would not do it to mine, but I was NOT abused and beaten half to death.

I resent the insinuation that every.single.solitary.person who has ever spanked a child is some monster who would beat the child senseless. Some people honestly do not know better.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my mom spanked me and never beat me either. I agree that some people honestly don't know better. There are also people who DO beat their children - who dont know any better - who think they have to get through to their children. Resentment really is not necessary in my opinion - I think, for reasons I stated above, that it would be good if people put resentment and offense aside and appreciated the people out there who DONT overlook POSSIBLE cases of abuse.

Is it usually abuse? probably not.
Is it sometimes abuse? most definitely.
Does it get overlooked out of fear of being wrong that the person ISNT abusing? yes.
Do children die because of this? yes.
Would more cases of serious abuse be recognized if less people were afraid of offending someone? yes.
Would more cases of abuse being uncovered lead to the death of less children? yes.

So to me, its makes more sense in circumstances that seem to be bordering on abuse (or staight up abuse such as hitting an 18 month BABY - hard!) to CONSIDER at least that there may be more to the situation.

It would be better to offend someone or cause resentment over being wrong that they are abusing, then for a child to die because you were wrong in assuming they weren't. It's really nothing to resent or be offended about IMO, but even if you are, I can't see how you wouldnt deem it worth it if it could ultimately result in less children being beaten to death. Responses like some I have seen here are exactly why some people DON'T report cases of abuse. (even I am afraid to report cases of LIKELY abuse) A contributing factor to that 18 month old baby that was beat to death over a potty training accident.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I am very pro-GD. But, honestly, is there an insinuation on this thread that an 18mo is somehow a helpless baby?

I think around 8/9 months my siblings were able to follow directions and to make willfull choices.

I can't imagine an 18mo being this directionless, helpless baby that doesn't need discipline or guidance.

Reminds me of when I was in a store, waving at a kid who could walk. (Maybe a year, maybe a bit older than a year). The baby smiled and waved back. The mom smiled at me, laughed and said, "It's almost as if she can understand us!"

Now, that's about as sick as the OP's spanking tale.







:


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

even though I am NOT saying that spanking was the appropriate way for her to handlt her baby, there is a difference between spanking and beating. i was spanked by my father and beaten by my mother. There was a definite difference in the way the two were carried out. My father was actually loving about it, because he beleived it was the best way to be, while my mother would chase me around throwing things and smacking me randomly with the belt.

so I do not think that this mother is abusive per se. But she needs to get a better understanding of child development, because 1 year olds jsut aren't good at sharing. If I spanked my ds every time he had an altercation with anohter kid, he'd have no butt left, and he's only 13 months old lol.

And I have spanked







so I totally understand the other mother's POV...trying to get the child to comply right away, being embarrassed, maybe, etc. But I've come around to seeing that maybe spanking isn't the best way to get things across to our children. And i have learned how NOT to spank, not by being lectured, but by watching other more experienced mothers parent their children. So if she is otherwise a good, loving mother, then rather than criticize her over this one thing, the best thing you can do for her is probably to keep associating with her and modeling other ways of teaching your chidlren.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and stories. I appreciate hearing everyone's point of view.

J is not someone I would expect this from, truly. The daughter in question is her only biological child, the others are a foster-to-adopt sibling group from an abusive, neglectful situation. So we're not talking about a heartless monster of a mother. She is probably one of the kindest people I know, which is why I was just so shocked and appalled by her behavior. I would expect to see my SIL spank (and believe me, i voice my opinions to her!) but not my friend, so I just didn't know what to say.

I fell like maybe she doesn't understand this age group, and maybe she really was trying to look proactive. I think I might have surprised her a bit as well.. we always have lunch and stuff but this was the first time she has visited our home. She made many comments about how low-key I was, and what a good mom, and she needs to come over more often and just hang out because she needs the pointers from me. (I feel the same about her - she is SO organized and good at running her household and managing life in general, and my house is cluttered and I bounce every other check.)

I LOVE the letter you wrote, Jenna. I am going to send her something very similar to that. I hope she will take it in the spirit in which it is intended. I guess if she stops being my friend, at least maybe she'll take the idea of being gentler to heart.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my son's teacher was a foster parent (who has now adopted her DD and DS), and maybe the laws are different here, but she told me foster parents are not legally allowed to spank foster children. I know you said she spanked her biological daughter, but I would think she would know how to teach children to behave without spanking them if she follows the law by not spanking her foster children. It would also be in my opinion unfair if she didnt spank the foster children but spanked her daughter. This is all of course assuming where you live has the same laws as where I live. I live in a VERY pro-cor state, so I imagine if its law here its common law elsewhere. If this is the case, you could also point out that it's not good for ANY of her children (biological and foster-to-adopt) for her to only spank one child. While I do think some children respond differently and sometimes discipline needs to vary from child to child, I wouldnt include spanking in that.... unfortunately some people think some children need spanked more then others. This is why boys are spanked more then girls, and special needs children are spanked more then children without special needs.

And just because a child can walk and wave does not mean they are not still a baby! she smacked an 18 month old hard. and 18 month old is a baby. And in many places hitting a child that age is ILLEGAL and considered abuse in a court of law.

I still think it should be illegal. consider this:
"Women have historically been spanked by the patriarch of the family or by the husband of a married woman. In modern times, due to the success of feminism, it has become unacceptable and is considered abusive to do so throughout the developed world. Corporal punishment of women, however, does still exist in some parts of the world."

"According to a study published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine (online on Aug 19, 2008), mothers who reported spanking their children are nearly three times more likely to also report using forms of punishment considered abusive to the researchers "such as beating, burning, kicking, hitting with an object somewhere other than the buttocks, or shaking a child less than 2 years old" than mothers who did not report spanking, and increases in the frequency of spanking are associated with increased odds of abuse."

Spanking is currently illegal in 24 countries. in canada the age limit is between the ages of 2 and 12. The US allows "reasonable force" which I think is a little to vague. in my opinion there is nothing reasonable about hitting an 18 month old.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

And there are 6 month old babies who can READ. I guess since they are smart enough to read that makes them not babies? I am really shocked anyone wouldn't consider an 18 month old a baby. Most are still in diapers at that age, they still don't have all their baby teeth (my daughter is 2 and still doesnt have a full set of baby teeth). There are also babies who are 18 months old who CANT walk yet. I don't know exactly when to say a baby stops being a baby - my children will always be my baby - but when you still refer to their age in months I'd say its safe to say they are babies. I consider them toddlers around age 2. Even clothing companies agree.. (0-3months, 3-6 months, 6-12 months, 12-18 months, 18-24 months) THEN 2T, 3T etc. (T for toddler) My 7 month old can point to the correct color when I hold up 2 color cards and ask hmi which is a certain color... I don't think that because a child can understand you that means they aren't a baby anymore. THAT is sick thinking. Thinking its okay to hit an 18 month old is sick thinking. I don't think it's sick for me to think that an 18 month old is a baby, and that even if you do believe in spanking that hitting a baby is abuse. I'm surprised more people dont think that. I'm surprised by how many people support spanking here. I'm not saying I see anyone advocating for it in this thread, but I definitely see that people support it in one sense or another - getting defensive for spankers everywhere. Spanking is just not okay. Hitting an 18 month old IS abuse. Now, I normally stay out of these types of things in real life because I would be afraid to offend someone (even though I realy think I SHOULD say something) but in the case of an 18 month old being hit in my home, not only would I ask the person to leave I would CERTAINLY report them, after a few swigsof mouth wash to clear away any bad taste from the throw up that would inevitably take place after witnessing such an event. Then I would probably cry for that child. I would probably be very angry and sick and worried over witnessing something like that. I really feel bad for that poor baby







I wish I could save every baby who is being treated that way. My heart is certaintly big enough but my home is not.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
even though I am NOT saying that spanking was the appropriate way for her to handlt her baby, there is a difference between spanking and beating. i was spanked by my father and beaten by my mother. There was a definite difference in the way the two were carried out. My father was actually loving about it, because he beleived it was the best way to be, while my mother would chase me around throwing things and smacking me randomly with the belt.
.

I dunno..but I think there is something seriously wrong with people who hurt others out of love.
Now this is just my opinion, but your mother. She was most definately in the wrong, but it sounds like she needed help or something.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
I dunno..but I think there is something seriously wrong with people who hurt others out of love.
Now this is just my opinion, but your mother. She was most definately in the wrong, but it sounds like she needed help or something.

Well....I agree and that is why I am trying to make my home a gentler place. when i was about 18, I sort of snapped and left home (in part due to a mental health issue) and my mom had a total nervous breakdown. Turned out she had severe anxiety disorder and had been projecting a lot onto me.







She is a lot better now, but unfortunately those early experiences shaped our relationship forever.

Sorry to ramble...anyway, my point was that even spanking is not the ideal way to handle a child, there CAN be a loving parent who spanks because it is all they know how to do. And i do know the difference because I have experienced both. In that first context I think that while it's not good, it's kind of a big jump to go straight to calling the mom abusive. That was the vibe i got from the OP....a good mom who just has this one "thing" about her parenting that needs improvement. I wouldn't call CPS on her, or call her an abusive parent.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
My sons school threatened to call a case worker if we didnt update or emergency contact info by a certain date because they could reach us by phone (we had JUST moved, and they didnt even try contacting any of the other numbers on the contact sheer) So while I was initially offended, and while I did make the situation clear and told the person if they had spoken to the teacher before sending home that note they would have had a totally different outlook, in retrospect I was glad that the school nurse cares enough about the children to not overlook any signs of POSSIBLE neglect or abuse. More people should be like that.

Possible neglect or abuse? They failed to even attempt any other number to contact you, and they _started_ the discussion by threatening your family with intervention by a government agency?? I'd raise hell. The world absolutely does NOT need more of that. Maybe your child's school should try doing their job, before they get in your face.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I think, for reasons I stated above, that it would be good if people put resentment and offense aside and appreciated the people out there who DONT overlook POSSIBLE cases of abuse.

All parents are _possible_ cases of abuse, if we're going to stretch our definition to include someone who hasn't updated an emergency contact form.

Quote:

Is it usually abuse? probably not.
Is it sometimes abuse? most definitely.
Does it get overlooked out of fear of being wrong that the person ISNT abusing? yes.
Do children die because of this? yes.
Would more cases of serious abuse be recognized if less people were afraid of offending someone? yes.
Would more cases of abuse being uncovered lead to the death of less children? yes.
Prove your case. Kids die _because_ of CPS intervention sometimes. Who's to say that a child who would have been okay at home won't die in care? Who's to say that said child won't be abused more severely in "care" than if they'd been left at home? Who's to say that less extreme interventions by CPS will necessarily help? Who's to say that the already overworked staff of CPS won't be too busy running around "investigating" a family who just moved and hasn't updated a freaking form to actually address a family where things are _bad_?

This isn't simple arithmetic, and more reports to CPS does not equal more children's lives saved.

Quote:

So to me, its makes more sense in circumstances that seem to be bordering on abuse (or staight up abuse such as hitting an 18 month BABY - hard!) to CONSIDER at least that there may be more to the situation.
There is absolutely _no_ merit in the snarky "what's going on behind closed doors?" crap that comes up here in almost every thread where someone sees bad parenting. Things can be going on behind closed doors in _any_ family at all, and sitting back and making that particular comment because of something seen in public comes across as a way to feel superior, without having to actually _think_.

Quote:

It would be better to offend someone or cause resentment over being wrong that they are abusing, then for a child to die because you were wrong in assuming they weren't. It's really nothing to resent or be offended about IMO, but even if you are, I can't see how you wouldnt deem it worth it if it could ultimately result in less children being beaten to death. Responses like some I have seen here are exactly why some people DON'T report cases of abuse. (even I am afraid to report cases of LIKELY abuse) A contributing factor to that 18 month old baby that was beat to death over a potty training accident.
I'd report if I felt that the child was in a situation that even CPS couldn't make worse. That's not because of the response you're seeing here from me. That's because I've seen intervention from government authorities take a bad situation and make it worse too many times. I don't have the widespread ability to make a call to a government agency and then pat myself on the back for "helping", without ever knowing what the result for that family actually was. It might make me feel good, but it's not about _me_. It's about the family that I may have just torn apart, and the child or children's lives I may have just made worse because I'm hellbent on feeling superior.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
"According to a study published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine (online on Aug 19, 2008), mothers who reported spanking their children are nearly three times more likely to also report using forms of punishment considered abusive to the researchers "such as beating, burning, kicking, hitting with an object somewhere other than the buttocks, or shaking a child less than 2 years old" than mothers who did not report spanking, and increases in the frequency of spanking are associated with increased odds of abuse."

Well...yeah. Someone who thinks it's okay to beat, burn, kick, etc. their children is obviously also not going to see a problem with hitting a child on their buttocks. However, it does _not_ follow that the opposite is true.

Even if I agreed with everything you've said here, which I obviously don't, I'm still sickened by the "what's going on behind closed doors?" crap. The most abusive families I've personally seen have _all_ looked like perfect angels on the surface...and several quite good parents I've known have looked pretty rough sometimes. For that matter, I know a woman who is very proud of the fact that she doesn't spank - she and her husband have argued about it frequently. She _did_, however, use hot sauce on her children's tongues when they were little...for the "offense" of saying "no". Frankly, even without the hot sauce, the fact that she sees "no" from a toddler/preschooler as a punishable offense says a lot to me. Everyone who meets her thinks she has wonderful children - sooo polite - and that's she's super mom. No "what's going on behind closed doors?" thrown at her...


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

yeah, some people like my mom put on a great facade I agree with that.

and I did raise my concerns to the schools approach with me, because as you said they werent doign THEIR job.

parents who spank are 3 times more likely to abuse then parents who dont. simple arithmitic? no. but those are the statistics. of course there are people I know who spank who I don't think are by legal definition abusing their parents - or that CPS needs to be involved - but we are talking about hitting a baby. CPS does not always take children away. I feel making spanking illegal would help - not to take the children away - provide the parents with support and parenting classes. fines for subsequent offenders. In cases of severe abuse THEN it might be necessary to do more.

I am not saying all parents who spank are bad , but I wouldn't call one who does spank good either.

And I have met children before who seem very well behaved, the parents seem nice too, but there are some subtle things I can pick up on that does make me think I wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

Just because someone doesnt say it, doesnt mean they arent thinking it either. A parents actions and polite children are not the only things that can send red flags for me. I am hyper sensitive to these kind of things.

I really dont see the big deal in wondering what might be going on behind closed doors. my mom didnt abuse me by legal standards but I really wish someone had thought that about her. If someone thinks that about me my attitude is more like BRING IT ON! I have nothing to hide







and I'm more then happy to oblige if it means moe cases of abuse can get uncovered.

and nothing about a child being spanked makes me feel superior. it only makes me feel sick. It's funny you would imply to me that I think I am superior. I actually have very low self esteem and question my own parenting all the time. I often feel like I can do nothing right. Thinking spanking is wrong doesnt make me feel any better either, by the way. I don' feel like I am "better" then anyone because I dont spank. Just like spankers shouldnt feel "better" then someone just because they don't beat. As parents, we all do what we believe is best. Some parents may even think belting their child till they are black and blue isn't abuse - that it is what is best - necessary. (like my grandma did to my mom) I dont think my mom was "better" then my grandma because my mom didnt leave bruises and my g-ma did. However, my mom seemed to think she was better then my g-ma for that reason (she used to say "its not like im abusing you. thats why your gma did to me. this is not abuse!) I don't think I am superior to my mother. I just know I am using healthier discipline then she did.

You should also consder what your obsession is with people "trying to feel superior" Do you get upset if someone wins a race? are they trying to feel superior by running their fastest and crossing the finish line first? or is it okay for someone to just be better and something then someone else. Everyone excels in different areas. I'm really good at math. My husband is great at history and I stink at it! I never thought my husband was trying to be superior by telling me thing from history or why its important. he doesnt think im trying to be superior when I take care of math related things - he asks for me to double check his numbers for work sometimes!


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Why didn't you say anything?

I read this everywhere "I didn't say anything, but, boy, I sure wanted too" while a wrong is being committed against a child. ESPECIALLY if you _know the person_ and they are in your home. Meaning they aren't some random stranger who you are afraid of angering for fear they will go psycho and pull a gun or some other craziness ensuing.

Say something.

Say:

"Oh my God, did you seriously just hit your baby?"

"STOP hitting your child, we don't hit in this house."

"Children are people too, we don't hit people in this house."

"Why on Earth did you just do that? She's a baby, what do you think you are teaching her by doing that?"

"Should I videotape you doing that so I can show you how monstrous you looking hitting that tiny person?"

"Did your parents hit you as a child? How did you feel while that happened? Do you want me to hit you now for being bad (i.e.: hitting your baby) so you learn to know better? Would you still like me afterwards?"

"What are you going to do when hitting her with your hand doesn't 'work' anymore? Upgrade to spoons, belts and bats?"

"When you hit your baby, I want to vomit. STOP doing that."

"If you hit your baby again in presence, I will never speak to you again. You can figure out why."

"Can I hit her too? Well, you seem to like it, and I figured I should get in on some of that action. No, you don't like it? Then WHY ARE YOU DOING IT?"

"Does your husband smack you when you don't cook dinner on time? Do you hope hers does? What about her teachers? Should they hit her too??"

"Do you know how INSANE you look hitting your child while telling her it should teach her not to hit? Are you going to hot-box her in the car to teach her to not smoke?"

Seriously, your duty as the only other adult in the room is to defend the defenceless. Be a conscientious objector and DO something about an injustice.

Trin.

PS: I just read the rest of the thread.

OP: Please know that I am not picking on you in particular, in general, I wish people would speak up for children.

* I do not instantly equate spanking with abuse. I don't fear about what is "going on behind closed doors" as a rule, and I think that line of thinking can lead to a parenting police state.

* I think only in extreme cases should the CPS be called, as I think removal from one's parents/home would be far more damaging than most cases of physical punishment.

* FTR: I was spanked a few times as a child and hated it, I felt humiliated and violated, but I think my parents did a pretty great job raising me.

*Stormbride for PM!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
parents who spank are 3 times more likely to abuse then parents who dont. simple arithmitic? no. but those are the statistics. of course there are people I know who spank who I don't think are by legal definition abusing their parents - or that CPS needs to be involved - but we are talking about hitting a baby. CPS does not always take children away. I feel making spanking illegal would help - not to take the children away - provide the parents with support and parenting classes. fines for subsequent offenders.

What about homes where financial stress is already a contributing factor to a parent's inability to practice gentle discipline (as was the case with me and ds1)? What kind of "support"? I actually spoke to a counsellor who was "helping" with a CPS case I know about - she heard me say something about being frustrated by ds1 leaving his jacket where it shouldn't be...and her advice, in the winter, was to _take away_ his jacket. Yeah - I need that kind of support. What about cases where finding time for parenting classes would cause more stress than the new skills would alleviate?

I never said CPS always takes the kids. I said that they often do more harm than help. I've seen that happen in cases where the kids are taken, and cases where the kids _aren't_ taken. If CPS isn't involved, then who does a report go to? Who enforces the law on this?

Quote:

I am not saying all parents who spank are bad , but I wouldn't call one who does spank good either.
To each their own. My mom spanked sometimes, and she was a good mother. I lived there, and I know, so I don't really care what self-declared experts have to say about it 3.5 decades later. I'm just grateful we didn't have busybodies involved in our lives.

Quote:

I really dont see the big deal in wondering what might be going on behind closed doors.
People wonder about all kinds of things. I just don't get the smarmy public speculation.

Quote:

my mom didnt abuse me by legal standards but I really wish someone had thought that about her. If someone thinks that about me my attitude is more like BRING IT ON! I have nothing to hide







and I'm more then happy to oblige if it means moe cases of abuse can get uncovered.
That's _you_. I HATE having people in my house. I hate being quizzed and queried and third-degreed, and having people make notes of what movies I watch and what music I listen to (and, yes - they do this - I've seen it). I'm a very private person, and having people here - even having the landlord come in to do the annual inspection or the fireplace cleaning - stresses me out. I also doubt that making social workers more overworked than they already are would uncover more cases of abuse. I've heard more than one of them defend it when a child under investigation dies by citing the fact they have _too many cases_. Maybe, if people didn't make reports without a solid reason, that wouldn't be the case.

Quote:

and nothing about a child being spanked makes me feel superior. it only makes me feel sick. It's funny you would imply to me that I think I am superior.
Where did I say that people being spanked makes you feel superior? If you have a need to make smarmy remarks about "what goes on behind closed doors?", based on one public incident of behaviour that is fairly widespread, I merely question what your motivation is. Does making comments like that help the child? Does making comments like that save anybody? No. So, what is the purpose (and, incidentally, I don't even recall right now if you're the one who first made the comment - but you're the one who picked up on this)?

Quote:

You should also consder what your obsession is with people "trying to feel superior" Do you get upset if someone wins a race? are they trying to feel superior by running their fastest and crossing the finish line first? or is it okay for someone to just be better and something then someone else. Everyone excels in different areas. I'm really good at math. My husband is great at history and I stink at it! I never thought my husband was trying to be superior by telling me thing from history or why its important. he doesnt think im trying to be superior when I take care of math related things - he asks for me to double check his numbers for work sometimes!
I have no idea what any of that (the math, racing and history) have to do with anything. My "obsession" is with the fact that a huge number of people in this culture (apparently including you, based on your posts in this thread) seem to think that phoning a government agency and getting said agency involved in other people's lives, based on next-to-nothing, is somehow virtuous. A huge number of people think that they can sit back and feel as though they've _done something_ by dumping a possible problem in someone else's lap. They never have to think again about whether that child was actually helped. They never have to do anything but make a call, and maybe destroy a life - or more than one - and be smug. I see it here all the time. I see it in real life, too. CPS is _not_ always benign. Shuffling a possible problem off onto someone else isn't "helping". Deciding that the state is qualified to deal with the problem doesn't mean anything has actually been done. None of this has anything to do with people striving to do their best, and taking pride in their accomplishments.

(If you're interested...I had a CPS worker show up here when I was in labour with Aaron. The stress of that visit caused my labour to stop progressing. It's _possible_ that if that hadn't happened, I'd have given birth to a living son before I picked up the infection that (maybe) killed him. Benign, huh? I'm sure whoever made that call on me felt wonderful about saving my baby from his irresponsible mother...how nice for them. I was already afraid of those people, because of the havoc I'd already seen them wreak in people's lives. My feelings are now stronger than they were.)


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Thats is your opinion of your mother. Personally, I wouldnt want my kids to grow up to have the same views as you - supporting what I view to be abuse - so in my eyes, your mother did you a great disservice.

Maybe some people give bad parenting advice (like taking a coat away) but hitting a child isnt good either. Some parents might realize ahead of time that parenting classes would create more stress, and therefore, not spank! I think it IS a solid reason to report someone who spanks. Esepcially a BABY!!

No I didnt make the comment about behind closed doors - but I see nothing wrong with it. Does it help anyone? it might if more people considered what goes on behind closed doors then maybe they would start to keep a closer eye on things to see if they notice any warning signs of (what is legally considered) abuse. im ot saying to simply call CPS because you wondered what went on behind closed doors. but there is no harm in wondering - and yes I do think wondering might help some people. too many people DONT wonder - and despite hearing a childs screams, and then silence, they dont call to report anything. later to find out the child is dead.

i am sorry for your loss. its also possible you would have stopped regressing anyway. im sure it was the interuption, but as you pointed out, some things cannot be proved.

Im not saying peopel should call over every little thing. im just saying that wondering what goes on behind closed doors may lead people to pay closer attention. As in, my sons school probably shouldnt have sent home that letter without putting more thought into the situation, but I would see nothing wrong with them putting more thought into the situation because of being unable to reach me (if they had at least tried other contact numbers)

you are making this into something it isnt though. the fact is a BABY got spanked HARD. the mom who did that needs help. and I would not be opposed to the gov't paying to help parents like her. Spankins should absolutely be illegal. There is nothing you could say that would stop me from fighting for this cause. I have heard every excuse in the book and its been years since anyone has presented me anything new. Spanking is a slippery slope to abuse.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

and as your persoal experiences have helped shape your opinion, it has also helped shape mine. I have NEVER in real life heard of CPS getting involved when they shouldnt. Only them not getting involved when they should. They do give pretty bad advice too. I actually don't like CPS at all. I don't think they should even be involved in anything I am suggesting as far as laws and consequences go. Many of them are pro spankers anyway.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What about homes where financial stress is already a contributing factor to a parent's inability to practice gentle discipline (as was the case with me and ds1)? What kind of "support"? I actually spoke to a counsellor who was "helping" with a CPS case I know about - she heard me say something about being frustrated by ds1 leaving his jacket where it shouldn't be...and her advice, in the winter, was to _take away_ his jacket. Yeah - I need that kind of support. What about cases where finding time for parenting classes would cause more stress than the new skills would alleviate?

I never said CPS always takes the kids. I said that they often do more harm than help. I've seen that happen in cases where the kids are taken, and cases where the kids _aren't_ taken. If CPS isn't involved, then who does a report go to? Who enforces the law on this?

To each their own. My mom spanked sometimes, and she was a good mother. I lived there, and I know, so I don't really care what self-declared experts have to say about it 3.5 decades later. I'm just grateful we didn't have busybodies involved in our lives.

People wonder about all kinds of things. I just don't get the smarmy public speculation.

That's _you_. I HATE having people in my house. I hate being quizzed and queried and third-degreed, and having people make notes of what movies I watch and what music I listen to (and, yes - they do this - I've seen it). I'm a very private person, and having people here - even having the landlord come in to do the annual inspection or the fireplace cleaning - stresses me out. I also doubt that making social workers more overworked than they already are would uncover more cases of abuse. I've heard more than one of them defend it when a child under investigation dies by citing the fact they have _too many cases_. Maybe, if people didn't make reports without a solid reason, that wouldn't be the case.

Where did I say that people being spanked makes you feel superior? If you have a need to make smarmy remarks about "what goes on behind closed doors?", based on one public incident of behaviour that is fairly widespread, I merely question what your motivation is. Does making comments like that help the child? Does making comments like that save anybody? No. So, what is the purpose (and, incidentally, I don't even recall right now if you're the one who first made the comment - but you're the one who picked up on this)?

I have no idea what any of that (the math, racing and history) have to do with anything. My "obsession" is with the fact that a huge number of people in this culture (apparently including you, based on your posts in this thread) seem to think that phoning a government agency and getting said agency involved in other people's lives, based on next-to-nothing, is somehow virtuous. A huge number of people think that they can sit back and feel as though they've _done something_ by dumping a possible problem in someone else's lap. They never have to think again about whether that child was actually helped. They never have to do anything but make a call, and maybe destroy a life - or more than one - and be smug. I see it here all the time. I see it in real life, too. CPS is _not_ always benign. Shuffling a possible problem off onto someone else isn't "helping". Deciding that the state is qualified to deal with the problem doesn't mean anything has actually been done. None of this has anything to do with people striving to do their best, and taking pride in their accomplishments.

(If you're interested...I had a CPS worker show up here when I was in labour with Aaron. The stress of that visit caused my labour to stop progressing. It's _possible_ that if that hadn't happened, I'd have given birth to a living son before I picked up the infection that (maybe) killed him. Benign, huh? I'm sure whoever made that call on me felt wonderful about saving my baby from his irresponsible mother...how nice for them. I was already afraid of those people, because of the havoc I'd already seen them wreak in people's lives. My feelings are now stronger than they were.)


I agree that CPS needs a HUGE overhaul. They shouldn't be destroying families but helping families. In a perfect world it would go like this.

_A neighbor calls because mom was spanking her one year old. CPS comes and talks to mom with no intention or threat of taking the child away. Mom is in a bad place financially, they have a social worker who gets mom services such as free utilities, WIC, sets them up with a charity organization in the community.

Classes are presented on a sliding scale. Mom doesn't have to pay anything, free daycare is at the classes. Mom learns different methods of parenting and is excited._

Of course, it doesn't work like this. So families that would benefit, and children that would benefit from parenting classes are left behind. Spanking can cause behavioral problems later in life, which may interfere with social and scholastic abilities, which can have a huge impact on their later life. Not to mention they may spank their children too and the cycle continues.

I do think it is an issue that needs to be addressed. Just because CPS is so screwed up isn't a reason that babies should be allowed to be hit. It wouldn't fly if I hit you. We would be in court, legal fines levied, and I may not be able to afford an assault charge either. But it was my choice to hit.

In the meantime, what can we do? With borderline parenting skills? How can we as a society go about it without calling the government in?

We can make it known it is unacceptable. Step up and call it out and call it what it is.

I would definately talk to the friend about it, in ways described on this thread. From a place of caring and support. And let her know it is unacceptable in your house.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

purplemoon you have a way with words. very well put!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
_A neighbor calls because mom was spanking her one year old. CPS comes and talks to mom with no intention or threat of taking the child away. Mom is in a bad place financially, they have a social worker who gets mom services such as free utilities, WIC, sets them up with a charity organization in the community.

Classes are presented on a sliding scale. Mom doesn't have to pay anything, free daycare is at the classes. Mom learns different methods of parenting and is excited._

Everybody has their own idea of a perfect world. I'm just glad I don't spank, so even in _your_ perfect world, nobody will come knocking on my door.

Quote:

It wouldn't fly if I hit you. We would be in court, legal fines levied, and I may not be able to afford an assault charge either. But it was my choice to hit.
You know...I hear that a lot. You can't compare adults and children in this regard, unless you want to _defend_ spanking. I'm on the receiving end of behaviour from my children, particularly ds2, _every day_ that would result in me hitting any adult who did the same things (running head butts into my stomach, punching me in the face, kicking me in the crotch, etc. etc.). With an adult, I'd kick them out of my house and/or press charges...and would almost certainly defend myself. With a child, I just have to figure out a way to guide them through it.

Quote:

In the meantime, what can we do? With borderline parenting skills? How can we as a society go about it without calling the government in?

We can make it known it is unacceptable. Step up and call it out and call it what it is.
Sounds good to me. My objection is government involvement.

SuperGlueMommy: We don't even have CPS here. They're called something else. Unless you're talking about a law that doesn't involve government, I don't care if CPS, as such, is involved or not. I don't think the state has any business getting involved in parenting unless it's a matter of life and death. What's more, I think they'd screw it up more often than not, and they are _not_ qualified to deal with these problems. Call it what you want - if someone is showing up at a home to explain to a parent that they are legally required to attend parenting classes, that's government involvement in parenting. I don't like it. I don't ever _like_ it, and I absolutely do not support it except in extreme cases.


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## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

Lisa - you are very lucky that you live in a world where nothing happened behind _your_ closed doors.
I'm sad that you feel so strongly against any sort of intervention but the reality is that many parents do warrant some investigation.

I'm a government highschool teacher and counsellor and I do wonder what happens behind closed doors, because I've seen it open before me. My concern isn't based on my idea of a "perfect world" but rather my first hand knowledge that it isn't a perfect world to begin with.

The cold hard fact is that abuse often follows a cycle of abusive behaviours. It might make some mothers nervous but, sadly, spanking your child is one step in the cycle. While not all parents who spank abuse their children, many parents who abuse their children do start off spanking. Abuse escalates because the punishment needs to escalate to stop the behaviour.

In this case, I would have said something to the mom, not because I think she is necessarily abusing her child but becasue I wouldn't want my child exposed to that sort of behaviour.

The pp's comment about an 18mth old not being a baby is not only ridiculous but a little sad. I would say something but really, do I even need to comment?!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenmama2AJ* 
Lisa - you are very lucky that you live in a world where nothing happened behind _your_ closed doors.
I'm sad that you feel so strongly against any sort of intervention but the reality is that many parents do warrant some investigation.

I'm a government highschool teacher and counsellor and I do wonder what happens behind closed doors, because I've seen it open before me. My concern isn't based on my idea of a "perfect world" but rather my first hand knowledge that it isn't a perfect world to begin with.

I have knowledge that it isn't a perfect world, too...like my high school friend who was molested by _two_ different boarders in her foster home (one of whom was also selling her drugs). Oddly enough, she's the _one_ case where I saw CPS actually make a positive difference, because her mother was a hardcore heroin addict, and she may well have starved to death if she hadn't been removed. My knowledge comes from holding a friend while she cried on me about what her father and uncle had done to her - after getting her high on cocaine (she was 15). My knowledge comes from knowing what was in my ex-husband's past (and his best friend's, for that matter). My knowledge comes from being the only person they trusted, the only person they would/could open up to, because they _expected_ betrayal by people in authority - not just their parents (not even mostly their parents in some cases), but all those people who wanted to "help". The most badly damaged people I knew - the ones who spent the most time dealing with the system - didn't and don't trust police officers, any kind of high school authority figure, social workers, etc. - _none_ of them.

Quote:

The cold hard fact is that abuse often follows a cycle of abusive behaviours. It might make some mothers nervous but, sadly, spanking your child is one step in the cycle. While not all parents who spank abuse their children, many parents who abuse their children do start off spanking. Abuse escalates because the punishment needs to escalate to stop the behaviour.
Really? If the punishment "needs to escalate to stop the behaviour", then why are so many abused kids being abused for _nothing_? Why do so many kids get spanked and it never goes any further? Parents who move from spanking to throwing their preschoolers out into the snow or forcing their hands onto hot stove plates aren't doing it because they started off spanking and it doesn't work, anymore. They're doing it because they have _major_ problems.

Quite honestly, based on my own life, when I hear "high school teacher and counsellor", it translates into "person who cannot be trusted". You know why? Because, you think you know what's best for other people. I trusted my parents, but I didn't trust my high school counsellor. She had one chance, and she blew it. Because of her, I have trust issues about counsellors that are affecting my life even now. The original issue that made her betray my trust was trivial - but the fact that she did so was _not_.

I haven't had the perfect little life my posts might sound like. My dad was an alcoholic (emotionally - and often physically - absent, but not even remotely abusive). My grandfather suffered brain damage when I was an infant that turned him into a pedophile. My grandmother was an emotionally abusive, manipulative, toxic person who did her best to destroy all of her grandchildren. I just didn't/don't have any skeletons, and there was no big secret about what went on in my home.

ETA: BTW, your post is either misleading or inaccurate. If you have knowledge about the things that go on behind closed doors from your position as a counsellor, then it's _not_ first hand. If it is first hand, then your position as a counsellor is irrelevant.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Oh wow, that must have been uncomfortable for you. Since you admire her usually, I'm sure she's open to ideas. Maybe you can get the Alfie Kohn "Unconditional Parenting" book or video, read it and then rave about it and lend it to her. It might be a little passive aggressive, but since she's a good friend and you know that normally, she's a good parent, I would avoid anything that would damage the friendship.

I've had friends who were overly harsh with their children and it almost always got to the point where they would try to discipline my children in the same manner or insinuate that I needed to be more like them. Then, I had to be more confrontational and in one case, completely cut the friendship.

I also have been the parent who needed a good mentor and I was lucky to find a great mom who really showed me how to parent through her example. I sometimes wonder how she dealt with me so calmly and non-judgementally!

So, since you respect her, keep being the mentor that she told you you are.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

no the punishment doesnt NEED to escalate to stop the behavior - but some parents THINK it does. Spanking doesnt work so they spank more or spank harder. they get mad spanking isnt working and mid spanking get out of control.

the problem is that by time it becomes a life or death situation, in many cases death takes place. They need to intervene BEFORE its a life or death situation. I find it absurd anyone would recommend waiting until that time to intervene, but sadly that is often what happens and that is why many children die who would not have otherwise.

when I hear high school conselour and teacher, for me that often translated into the one person I could count on in my life to have a positive impact on me. To provide me healing and show me that positive relationships between adults and children do exist.

Lisa- just because YOU didnt feel that doesnt mean some children wont. obviously, as I didnt. You can't know in advance how spanking will effect your child. they can have abusive results even if they arent abuse. they can make the child suicidal. According to you, CPS should have been involved, since my mom's non-beating non abuse spankings DID become a life or death situation. The sole reason i wanted to kill myself was because my mom spanked me. Thats why I ran away. thats how I ended up being raped. thats why I moved out at the age of 18 at an means necessary living in a deplorable situation and feeling like it was 1000 times better then living with my mom. I barely ate I was sickly skinny from not eating, my mom provided a nice home to live in and food on the table - but I would rather do without then live with a women who thought it was okay to hit me.

there is only ONE thing adults are allowed to do TO children that they ARENT allowed to do TO other adults (legally speaking) - and that is hit/spank them for purposes of discipline against a their consent. It is not so outlandish to suggest this should not be acceptable behavior by society.

we don't have CPS here either. We have the department of children and family services, and gorwing up we had DYFS (sp?) (i think it was departmartment of youth and family services?) it;s called different things in different places - but they al serve the same purpose - usually poorly - taking children from homes they should remain in and not removing children from severe abuse when they should. It's not a perfect world. i doubt the system will ever be perfect. but our society as a whole would be better if we would acknowledge that this treatment of children is not right.

Again, I'm not saying CPS (or equivalent) should always get involved, or always take the children away but hitting a child should not be acceptable and parents should be offered help if they are doing this, fines if they continue to do it, and more severe consequences if the abuse is taking place in excess.

I understand some kids would rather stay with their family. They think things would be worse off if anyone got involved (Much like Jeannette Walls if you read the glass castle)

It doesn't mean what the parents are doing is okay.

Lisa - you sound so much like my own mother. She wanted me to believe how much worse my life would be in someone elses care if I wasnt in hers. That is just something an abusive person would say. I've seen abusive husbands imply these kinds of things, abusive parents, etc. They want to make the victim feel that they are better off with them then without them, so they can continue to treat them wrong. Yeah, maybe a new home would have been worse (though I probably would have ended up with family and I would have rathers have lived with any family member other then my mom). I would rather live with someone who hurt me who WASNT supposed to be gentle to me. That really screws up (most) people to have someone who is supposed to love them inflict physical pain on them. I am more traumatized by my mom being a person who spanked me then I was by the person who raped me, or the person who pulled a gun on me and smashed in the front window of my car, or the time I was in car accident that I should have died in. Because the other thing in my life that were traumatizing wasn't someone who loved me purposefully hurting me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The fact that your mother said those things to you - about how you could be worse off, etc. means there actually was more going on than just the spanking. She was hurting you _and_ telling you that you should be grateful for it. Frankly, she sounds very emotionally abusive.

Since I'm not hitting my kids (have done it, but very rarely - twice with ds2 - and _only_ when he'd hurt me physically very badly), I have no idea why you keep saying I sound like your mother. I think spanking is a very bad idea. I think getting the government involved is worse.

Do you have any stats to back up your repeated assertion that the reason children die is because spanking is legal and/or because nobody gets involved at an earlier stage? You say it as if it's an indisputable fact. Yet...every time I've heard of a child dying while the family is under investigation, social workers explain is as being because they have _too many files_ to do their job properly. You want to have more reports filed, and you state as a fact that it would save lives. There's nothing to back that up. The good thing is that if people call CPS on a family, and one of the children (or more) ends up abused, raped, beaten or killed while "in care", the person who called can keep a clear conscience, because they'll probably never know. Sure - the kids may not be taken (I know at least one family where CPS ended up "facilitating" the removal of one parent...unfortunately, it was the parent who actually cared about the kids - oops)...but the person making the report has no way to know.

Quote:

That really screws up (most) people to have someone who is supposed to love them inflict physical pain on them.
Incidentally, I disagree with this. I know some people find spankings to be really awful. However, in my generation (I'm 40), far more children were spanked than weren't. I don't know anybody, irl, who was screwed up by being spanked, unless there was more going on (beatings, the "you should be grateful" crap, the "you're such a bad child that you're making me do this" crap, etc.). Most of us saw a spanking as being about as significant as a stubbed toe or a skinned knee. I'm not denying your reality, but I'd also like to see some kind of backup for "most" in your quote.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

you hit your son to get the pint across he shouldnt have hit you? was this an automatic reation or did you think that through first?

yes my mom was emotionally abusive, but you sound a lot like her in trying to say these kids could be worse off if child services were involved.

my mom never told me I should be grateful for the spanking. she said she did it because she loved me. but she did also tell me that it could be worse. while that was wrong for her to say, that did not take away frm the fact that someone who was supposed to love me and care for me was purposefully hurtng me.

yes, many people you know may be "okay" by your standards, but that doesnt mean everyone would agree they are okay. Anyone who thinks spanking is okay, anyone who thinks spanking should be legal, definitely has NOT turned out okay.

my basis on my thinking is that when drinking was made illegal less people did it. If spanking was made legal less people would do it. If less people as a whole are spanking, there would be less people as a whole who would end up in asituation where "just a spanking" escalated into abuse.

The fact remains, there is NOTHING that anyone has been able to point out besides spanking that is legal for an adult to do to a child but not to another adult. This is the ONLY thing. It is a parent right and responsability to discipline them - not to hit them.

You know yourself, but don't think you were screwed up by spanking? Maybe not everyone agrees with that. Thats a matter of opinion. The number one pro-spanking arguement is "I turned out okay". Even children who were abused can think they deserved it, that it helped them, that being in their family was more important then anything. Children who, whether spanked or beaten, would rather remain in that situation then put into another home even if there was a GUARANTEE the other home would be safe. I think in a sense, parents who spank create some what of a stockholm syndrome.

you dont have to agree, but this is how I see it, and you may not know anyone in real life but they are out there, and it could be anyones child who turns out this way - even without being abused.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Spanking really does not make any sense to me at all. I do not see how any child could learn anything positive from being spanked. Is it abuse? I'm not sure... I mean I guess in my opinion, it depends on a lot of things. I don't think that all spankers are abusers, but I do think that all spankers are ignorant.


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## Bell (Jan 20, 2009)

I've never seen anybody so close to do that. I don't know what I would say if so...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
you hit your son to get the pint across he shouldnt have hit you? was this an automatic reation or did you think that through first?

No - I didn't hit him to get the point across that he shouldn't hit me. I hit him, because I was in pain and lashing out at the source of the pain. The first time it happened, I didn't even _know_ I'd hit him until he told me.

Quote:

yes my mom was emotionally abusive, but you sound a lot like her in trying to say these kids could be worse off if child services were involved.
You can take it however you want. I _know_ those kids could be worse off if child services were involved. I'm not going to go tell those kids that, because it's dismissive of what they're going through. However, it's a _fact_. They could be worse. What happens when child services gets involved, but mom or dad doesn't quit spanking, and the kids are apprehended, and they wind up abused like my friend was? Child services can make things worse. IME, they make things worse more often than they help. That's my main reason for choosing not to ever involve them unless things are drastic. The other reason is that I think it's totally counter-productive to overload an agency like CPS with extremely iffy calls, when they have major problems to deal with.

Quote:

yes, many people you know may be "okay" by your standards, but that doesnt mean everyone would agree they are okay. Anyone who thinks spanking is okay, anyone who thinks spanking should be legal, definitely has NOT turned out okay.
What? I don't think spanking's okay, but I think making it illegal is a cure worse than the disease, and therefore I'm not okay...and it's because my mom spanked me sometimes? Let me assure you that my emotionally absent father, sexually abusive grandfather and unbelievably toxic grandmother caused me a lot more problems than an occasional spanking ever did. You've got a really great circular argument going there - you can "prove" that spanking damaged us, by defining damage as not agreeing with you on an appropriate way to deal with spankings. Many of the people I'm talking about don't spank their kids. Most of them have good relationships with their parents. Most of them are very functional people in their professional, personal and academic lives (more so than me, but I've got a lot of other issues).

Quote:

The fact remains, there is NOTHING that anyone has been able to point out besides spanking that is legal for an adult to do to a child but not to another adult. This is the ONLY thing. It is a parent right and responsability to discipline them - not to hit them.
If an adult did to me what ds2 did to me the day I hit him without knowing it, it would not have been illegal to hit that adult. It would be considered self-defense. You cannot compare an adult and a child in that respect. For that matter, I keep my kids locked in the house (with me home) and don't let them leave without me...and it would be totally illegal to do that to an adult. This line of thinking actually undermines your argument.

Quote:

You know yourself, but don't think you were screwed up by spanking? Maybe not everyone agrees with that. Thats a matter of opinion. The number one pro-spanking arguement is "I turned out okay". Even children who were abused can think they deserved it, that it helped them, that being in their family was more important then anything. Children who, whether spanked or beaten, would rather remain in that situation then put into another home even if there was a GUARANTEE the other home would be safe.
I was one of those kids. I'd have gone mental if someone had tried to take me away from my mother to put me in a "safe" home. I was IN a safe home. This is the thing you're not getting. It's not about thinking I deserved it or that it helped me. It's about the fact that it simply wasn't a big deal. I had a mom who respected my right to be myself, who put enormous amounts of time and energy into her parenting, who spent hours and hours taking us for walks in the woods and baking cookies and all that good stuff...and who also had a hormonal problem that caused her to have difficulty keeping her cool in frustrating circumstances. Anybody who would have taken me away from her in order to put me in a situation _they_ thought was better for me would be demonstrating unbelievable (well, I wish it were unbelievable) arrogance...and they would have been emotionally abusing me. I know it's considered okay to hurt kids for their own good if you're a government agency, but I don't agree with that.

And, for the record - "I turned out okay" isn't a pro-spanking argument from me, as I'm not pro-spanking. I don't believe in spanking, and you know what? My mom, overall, was a far better parent than I am. There's no comparison.

Quote:

I think in a sense, parents who spank create some what of a stockholm syndrome.
Say what? Not even remotely applicable to most spanking parents I've known.

Quote:

you dont have to agree, but this is how I see it, and you may not know anyone in real life but they are out there, and it could be anyones child who turns out this way - even without being abused.
That's right. It could be. So...which kids should be left alone? Some of the most severely damaged people I've ever met never had anyone lay a hand on them. Even with a no-spanking law, there's nothing anybody could do about them. Just how far should state interference go, iyo?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
you hit your son to get the pint across he shouldnt have hit you? was this an automatic reation or did you think that through first? could be anyones child who turns out this way - even without being abused.

Incidentally, this is an offensive post. I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread that I am _not_ pro-spanking, and yet you ask me if I "thought it through" when I hit my son. Your constant references to how I sound just like your mother also imply that I'm pro-spanking. I am not.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I am not saying you are like my mom in the sense you are pro spanking - just that some of the statements you made are statements she has made, thus reminding me of her.

It is not that the post is offensive, but given the fact you have hit your child for hitting you, I do understand now where the defensive undertone of your replies is coming from. My asking if you had thought it through or if it was an automatic reaction is simply my curiousity as in order for me help more parents who ask me for their help in stopping spanking (which I have helped many) it would be beneficial to me to know that (in general) when a person does this if there was some kind of reason behind it that felt justified at the time, or if it was an automatic reaction. See for me, there have been times that my children have hit me in that wonderful hitting stage they go through, and I had to grab them and give them a bear hug - to stop their action and for me to stop myself from my automatic learned reaction to hit back (learned from my mother) for me, it would have been an automatic response if I had chosen to give in to executing an abusive behavior such as hitting a child for hitting me. For some though, it is a thought out consequence that they have determined to be completely reasonable and the practical to the situation. I was curious if for you it was reactive or proactive. If you do not feel comfortable answering I am in no way upset by that, but if you are willing to answer I appreciate the insight as the more I can hear from parents who spank or have spanked in the past the more I would be able to help someone in the future when they ask for help or guidance, and the more prepared I can be for what kind of guidance they would need (do more people need help with self control in this scenario - healing from their past and breaking the cycle their parents set with them - or do more poeple need help with understanding the way discipline works and why an eye for an eye isnt the best solution, especially when it comes to something like hitting - where hitting models hitting and it sends a complex mixed message to the child along with other collective damage of the caretaker who is supposed to love them also being a source of their uneccessary physical pain.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I just saw your reply before the last one. thank you for sharing with me. I am sorry that was your automatic reaction ((HUGS)) I know how hard that is to overcome when you come from a family where you were hit. If you ever have the urge again, though it sounds like you have already resolved it, I find that the bear hug technique works good. Also, sometimes I take a little mommy time out to get away from the source of pain before determining how to handle the situation. This is a perfect example of why I think spanking is a gateway to abuse though. Luckily for your children you broke the cycle. I would think that would be the norm, but as it turns out most people who spank grow up to spank their own children. Reactive spanking is common even for those who do not want to spank - and can sometimes cross the line into abuse because the parent isnt parenting proactively they are parenting reactively which can be potentially dangerous in cases where hitting is a form of discipline. The fact that you and I get reactive when we are hit is a perfect example of how spanking creates violent tendancies. Thankfully people like you and I overcame these things. Many people do not- then we see a lot of violence on the streets that wouldnt otherwise be there. Do you also have the fear reaction? there are times I flinch when people make a sudden movement even if they have never hit me or given me reason to believe they would. It's just my reaction... I find even my owns kids energy can make me flinch sometimes. I'm still working on that one...


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

yes those kids COULD be worse off with children services involved. They could also be worse off if they WERENT involved. and you also ignore that I have said MANY times that I am not suggesting these people be involved as the solution, or that I approve of the way they currently do get involved. I am only advocating there would be less violence and abuse as a whole if society stopped excusing spanking as a right to parents - this would make it easier for children to be removed in TRUE cases of abuse. this would put an end to SOME spanking, which would put an end to some of the spankings that escalate into something more. those parents would seek out other alternative and be prepared and less reactive. Think of someone like me, who maybe DIDNT seek out an alternative and jst allowed themselves to b reactive even if they didnt really want to spank. now tell that person they would get a $1000 fine if they spanked, and see how fast they would sign up for (what I recommend to be free) parenting classes or get some support in other ways. It wouldnt end all spanking. it wouldnt end all abuse. it wouldnt end all death. but it would HELP. and there is NO reason to keep it legal anymore then there is a reason they should have left it legal for husbands to spank their wives.

the self defense HA I was already ready for this one. If another child hit you on the street and you hit them back it wold not be self defense. that law also depends on where you live - if you were able to get away from the person offending you, and if you were able to stop the "attacker" without hitting them back. Yes, self defense is the only time an adult can legally hit another adult - but you hitting your son for hitting you was likely not self defense. I doubt you were in real danger of serious injury or death that could only be prevented by hitting him back. But hey, maybe you were. maybe he was chasing after you with a knife. In a ligitamite case of elf defense I would have to consider it might be okay for anyone to hit anyone, even an adult to hit a child who WASNT their child.

the facts are that these bad things are INCREASED with spanking. And spanking is uneccessary. I am saying anyone can turn out like me - effected the same way abused children are by "just a spanking". and yes some people who arent even spanked end up having problems, but they are LESS likely to have problems if they arent spanked then if they are. And those people who end up messed up even though they received consistent appropriate discipline and weren't spanked - they would probably be even WORSE if they had been.

the more educated are less likely to spank (statistically speaking) and countries where spanking is outlawed are showing a lot better in society and economy.

and wow your mom really did a number on you







with comments like she was a far better mother then you no comparison? after the life story you shared that is scary you think that. (((HUGS))) I am sure you are doing better then you think.

I'm not saying you should have been taken from your home or anything like that. you keep going on about that when I'm talking about the children who are being bruised and bleeding and arent being removed from their homes because the courts are saying "who are we to say it wasnt just a spanking and the kid moved or bruises easily". they don't know where to draw the line. and a line shouldnt have to be drawn. kids shouldnt be allowed to be hit. period. that doesnt mean take every child form their home either. but yes some SHOULD be taken from their homes, and most of them don't think they should be even though they are going to the bathroom in a shared bucket in the kitchen, not eating for weeks at a time, digging food out of the garbage cans at school because their dad spent all the money on alcohol not showering for weeks at a time, their parents exploiting them sexually for money, nearly drowning them, and even THOSE children sometimes think they are better off where they are at - and maybe you agree, but I don't and I do think it would be more then okay for to step in and give those kids a better life - with food, without sexual assault, with a place to pee besides the same bucket the rest of the family goes in until its full and who ever's turn it is to take it outside dig a hole and bury it does so . Some of them turn out fine. and some of them turn up dead.


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