# What are we doing to make the USA more family-friendly?



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I was just reading in another thread about moms who don't take their babies to poetry readings or movies and museums because they don't want to deal with the disapproval from other people. The idea is that bringing kids to these places is not ok because our society isn't "family-friendly." And I agree.

So I wanted to ask, what can we, as normal citizens do to make this a more family-friendly nation? I do not want ways to contact my congressman. I don't want to hear about laws and having the government force businesses to cater to people. I want to talk about what we can do ourselves to change society.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

My own personal thoughts on that is that laws don't really force social change. But I haven't studied a lot of recent southern history so I reserve the right to change my mind with new information 

But I have been thinking a lot about the idea of age-related segregation and I think things need to happen on both sides. We ship retirees out to special communities, too. Take cruises for example: there are retiree cruises and singles cruises and gay cruises and family cruises. Somehow the industry has gotten the idea that people want to spend their leisure time with people like them. Maybe it's marketers forcing product specialization but maybe they're tapping into something people already feel. So why is that? Why can't we have cruises that aren't specialized and welcome a good mix? And so many activities are broken down like that.

Gosh - I have a ton of thoughts on this. I don't know where to begin. I'd love to see more mainstream press about the marginalization of mothers (those who are home full-time and those who work). I definitely think things are getting better and the Gen Y's are supposed to want more balance out of work and life as opposed to the baby boomers who created workaholism.

Personally, I think the best thing I can do is to continue to take my child to adult centered activities that I enjoy. To expose her to places and people where there aren't necessarily children. But I'm a big continuum-concept follower so I try not to make my life too child-centered.

I read somewhere that the only place the average person is likely to run into a mother and child is at the supermarket. Now - don't even get me started on what THAt does to BF rates. But that's another rant...


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## flowermom1 (Dec 17, 2004)

I'm going to have to go against the grain here for a few reasons.

For one, there are many activities just for children. One shouldn't need to take their young child to an adult event. Not only will the child get bored, but adults don't want to hear a crying baby or have to deal with someone's energetic toddler running around and getting in the way.

And as far as the cruises go, of course people are going to want to go on a cruise that suits their interests. A lesbian would more than likely go on a gay cruise than a Disney cruise to meet new friends and possibly a partner. A family would more than likely go on a Disney cruise rather than a singles cruise in order to find activities and events geared towards their children. Certain cruises are geared towards certain interests because different people have different interests.

We need to think about other people around us. I think it is very rude to bring our kids to adult events just because we want our kids to experience it. I think that is being very selfish. There are retired people who, after spending years raising their own kids, want to spend time away from kids sometimes. There are parents who want to spend some 'couple' time away from their kids. There are couples who cannot conceive and sometimes just don't want to be around kids. There are single young adults who are enjoying their new adulthood and don't want to be around kids. These people seek out events where there are no kids because they want the adult interaction.

I would never even consider bringing my son to an adult event. There are plenty of other activities that my son participates in that I don't feel the need to impose him on adult events. There are all different types of people, such as what I mentioned above. Because of this, I don't expect to be catered to just because I'm a mom. I'm no more special, and neither is my son, than the next person. Everybody has their place and my son does not belong everywhere everytime.

As far as our society being family-friendly, I believe our society is more family-friendly than ever. There are kids clubs at every library. Malls have kids clubs. Even our local grocery store has a kids club. SUV's and minivans come with DVD players now to keep the kids occupied so the parents don't have to entertain them. Malls have play areas. McDonalds and Burger King have play areas. A lot of places now have family restrooms. Restaurants have childrens menus and parties. Parking lots have family parking up in front of the lot.

I feel that society is family-friendly enough.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

I also agree that it isn't by legislation that we are going to make this country a more family friendly place, lord knows we don't need more laws, but I agree we need big change. Ah heck, who knows, maybe there is some way that laws can help influence change. We need to look to other countries that are family friendly perhaps as models. What are they doing that we could do differently? As the previous poster said, there are many ways that this country is more child friendly, I totally grant her that. I don't think the issue is that kids need more activities, but that the overall attitude of this country is not family friendly. I totally agree with the poster right before me. As I see it, parenthood, especially motherhood, is still not valued. That is where I see the biggest problem. We have the worst maternity benefits in the industrialized world. Other unrelated issues in this country force both parents to work outside of the home in most cases. We just don't see motherhood as a real job and don't appreciate as a culture how hard it is and how important to the culture at large this job is. As we don't recognize it or appreciate it we expect moms to take shortcuts, to farm the care of their children out so they can do more "important" things and then in turn we are turning out adults who are undereducated, not raised up right and more of a burden on society than they have ever been. Our young adults of this generation seem more unprepared than ever. We are falling behind the rest of the world. I don't know, that is my view anyway.


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## HoneymoonBaby (Mar 31, 2004)

Quote:

As far as our society being family-friendly, I believe our society is more family-friendly than ever. There are kids clubs at every library. Malls have kids clubs. Even our local grocery store has a kids club. SUV's and minivans come with DVD players now to keep the kids occupied so the parents don't have to entertain them. Malls have play areas. McDonalds and Burger King have play areas. A lot of places now have family restrooms. Restaurants have childrens menus and parties. Parking lots have family parking up in front of the lot.
Those things are all parent-friendly, not necessarily kid- or family-friendly.


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## littlecityfarmer (Apr 27, 2004)

Don't have long to post, but I do think that with this and other social-change issues, we should *be* the change we wish to see in the world... If we want to have a more age-intergrated society, we should bring kids into places like museums and poetry-readings. If enough of us do this, people will become accoustomed to having kids at these places... If a facility doesn't offer family-friendly options, encourage change...

very simplistic solution and easier said than done, but I have to run...

-k


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## cumulus (Jul 17, 2002)

I agree. Our nation is anti-family and anti-child. In my efforts to change things I begin with my own life and family. I place family and children above all other priorities making them central, integral to my life. The larger society may have commerce as its core value but I make people the core value in the little society of my family. Even as I'm sleeping in our family bed I'm living a life of togetherness with human beings of different ages and even animals at peace together (most of the time) with othes as a core value. Thus I hope to make this nation more child-friendly and to raise future parents who might share my feeling that it is children who should be the center of all our efforts and hopes.

"We are the least family-oriented society in the world"
~ pediatrician T. Berry Brazelton, MD


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I haven't read any other responses yet...

Well, I know for myself, when I have kids, I plan to take them everywhere with me. If they get loud of course, I'll take them out til they're quiet again, but if they're quiet then what's the issue?

I intend to NIP without covering.

I intend to work at home, with my children, and support other WAHMs too.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowermom1*
One shouldn't need to take their young child to an adult event. Not only will the child get bored, but adults don't want to hear a crying baby or have to deal with someone's energetic toddler running around and getting in the way.

As far as our society being family-friendly, I believe our society is more family-friendly than ever. There are kids clubs at every library. Malls have kids clubs. Even our local grocery store has a kids club. SUV's and minivans come with DVD players now to keep the kids occupied so the parents don't have to entertain them. Malls have play areas. McDonalds and Burger King have play areas. A lot of places now have family restrooms. Restaurants have childrens menus and parties. Parking lots have family parking up in front of the lot.

I feel that society is family-friendly enough.

Adult events in the OP were movies, museums and poetry readings. I really don't consider those "adult" events. If my baby cried, I would pop a breast and be good to go--worst case leave the room. Sling a toddler and they are not running all over the place. I can take my six year old almost anywhere because he knows what behavior is expected. If I had not taken him places and taught him respect for others then he would not be able to do this. We have to teach respect. Attachment parenting can really help with this.

Now of course, I don't take him to adult places such as strip clubs, cocktail parties or R-rated movies. (Course I don't get out much LOL)

WHAT? Only one item on your list has the slightest appeal to me...the kids club at the library. Family friendly evidently means something completely different to me. It means health care for all children, it means you are guaranteed your job if you take maternity/paternity leave. Could I say it? What about paid leave... Family friendly means that there isn't marketing to our kids everywhere they go--like that kids club at the mall. I could go on and on but won't. There is either extreme naivete or a troll IMO.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

In order to make the US more " kid friendly"...more willing to have kid around everywhere.
WE *all* have to become more cosiderate of each other and more tolerant.
So someone wants a kidfree event? What of it..why is that such as issue or insult? Bringing a kid to an event where it is stated "21 and over, only" such as concerts in bars ( and oh, yes folks do bring kids to bars these days) or a kid free wedding or resort is only going to make them less tolerant rather than more.
Kids definately belong at museums and poetry readings and those that think they don't need to get a grip, but I really have to wonder at some of the things I see folks taking young children to in terms of movies...especially when the kids are screaming in obvious terror and the parents refuse to remove them...and it happens all to often. I feel for the kids in that situation more than I do for the audiance, but that's just me.
But what about the way we view and treat others... far too often the well-meaning old man who plays with our kids is viewed as a potential threat even tho' mom or dad was right there and saw and heard everything that went on ...but oh he's playing the tickle game with my kid so he a threat. Or that single adult who is doing nothing more than sitting in a park or perhaps walking through that park...they're a potential threat too. Too often they don't even have to be *near* the kids to be viewed as threat..just in the park..sice when are parks...not playgrounds but parks with hiking trails, ice skating, skiing, ect only a kids domain? and What about that all ages society we supposedly want? ( I have first hand knowledge with this one...I was stopped by the cops and questioned for doing nothing but sitting under a picnic shelter, having lunch and stitching...big threat there, right?)
What about folks who don't interact well with kids... do they have no place to go anymore, and do you really want your kid near someone who has no patience for explaining the whys and wherefores of what they are doing, reading, listening to or whatever? Some folks are just shy..we want folks to honour that in our kids, why do we not grant that to adults too? Yet. all too often I see folks being told, "But he's /she's just a kid you Have to expain it to him" Umm, no they don't and a little respect on the parent/ child's part would prolly have gone a long way in making that person more friendly and not just towards kids.
I used to ride the bus here quite frenquntly and I can not tell you how many times I've seen youngsters be disruptive, and rude to other people, only to have the parents of those same kids tell folks "They're kids, what do you want me to do"
We want our friends to be tolerant and understanding of the demands of children, but do we *really* reciprocate when they have gone out of their way to be with us, to understand and then htey need us for a life emergancy or event that is of major importance too them? or do we expect that they once again understand that "kids come first" well...that too is going to make for "kid intolerance" or should all the understanding and giving be on the part of those with out kids or whose kids are grown?
What about when you do take them places do you expect folks who have gotten there early and gotten into the firont row at a show or concert to abdicate just because your kids are there, or do you tell the kiddoes that they have to be in back? Or do you expect as several parents I know do ( and have lobbied a band for) that the first 8-10 rows of a show be kids only?
Or if you go somewhere and your kid wants to play in someone's cupboards do you expect that they be allowed to , or do you respect that the homeowner doesn't want that and enforce it with your kids? What about folks who have different rules than you...do oyu expect they turn off the tv because you are there or allow your kid watch something that they don't normally allow?
Lots of you say that you don't feel you have to cover when you nurse in public.. but what about in someone else's home...or don't they have the right to be comfortable in their own homes? ANd I am NOT suggesting that one go to the bathroom to nurse just that one postion themselves so that the other person doesn't need to see or to cover up.
What about child-proofing...I've had folks come in and tear down my alter because they did not want the kid near it...never asked just did it while I was in the bathroom.
Making the US family/kid friendly is not going to happen until **ALL** sides of the issue feel respected and heard.....there's lots that the child/free/childless/emptynesters can improve on but there's also lots that parents can improve on too. And all of it will n go a long way in making the country better for all of us.


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## flowermom1 (Dec 17, 2004)

Andi 3k summed it up best for me.

And as far as family friendly meaning about health care and being guaranteed a job, I couldn't tell you anything about that because I don't work. So I don't know what the politics concerning that are.

I was thinking that family friendly meant specific places and things to do for kids and their parents and things that make life easier for families.

My husband took me to LasVegas for our anniversary and I was so surprised at the amount of kids there. I thought LasVegas=Sin City. Even with all the kids I saw there and the obvious fact that it is attempting to be family friendly, it is still not a place I would ever want to take my son. I don't think kids should be there.

And last summer we went to a small wedding where the invitation said it was for guests over 21 only. We got a sitter for our son, and when we were at the wedding reception there were kids there! Not a lot, like maybe 5 or so, but still. Here we spent the money for a sitter and other people brought their kids. That is what I mean by kids don't always belong at certain places. That was a very formal wedding and they served prime rib.

I'm a first time mom and I honestly don't know too many people with little kids, not like on a good friend basis anyways.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I completely agree with you, andi. To me, family friendly means that children and old people, and young single people, and teenagers, and empty nesters can all tolerate one another in a public setting.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andi_3k*
So someone wants a kidfree event? What of it..why is that such as issue or insult? Bringing a kid to an event where it is stated "21 and over, only" such as concerts in bars ( and oh, yes folks do bring kids to bars these days) or a kid free wedding or resort is only going to make them less tolerant rather than more.

I wouldn't be insulted if there was a 21 and over event, provided that it wasn't a family member being rude on purpose to another one.

Quote:

I really have to wonder at some of the things I see folks taking young children to in terms of movies...especially when the kids are screaming in obvious terror and the parents refuse to remove them...and it happens all to often. I feel for the kids in that situation more than I do for the audiance, but that's just me.
I haven't personally experienced this, but in that case, I'd say the PARENTS weren't being very kid friendly.

Quote:

But what about the way we view and treat others... What about folks who don't interact well with kids...
I agree with both of these. I think that mama instinct has to come into play here. A man who's tickling my child wouldn't bother me unless I had the creepy mama feeling about him. I've had older men sit down next to me at a bus stop and strike up a conversation, and feel just fine (as a single 22 yr old female alone), and other times, I've actually gotten up and left the bus stop and gone to another one because the man talking to me was creeping me out. It's a judgement call. On the flip side, if my child goes up to someone and starts talking to them, and they clearly want to be left alone, I'll distract the child and apologise to the person. Surely a normal person would accept such an apology.

Quote:

Yet. all too often I see folks being told, "But he's /she's just a kid you Have to expain it to him" Umm, no they don't and a little respect on the parent/ child's part would prolly have gone a long way in making that person more friendly and not just towards kids.
I agree, prolly the biggest thing towards making us a more family friendly nation would be to show respect to others.

Quote:

We want our friends to be tolerant and understanding of the demands of children, but do we *really* reciprocate when they have gone out of their way to be with us, to understand and then htey need us for a life emergancy or event that is of major importance too them? or do we expect that they once again understand that "kids come first" well...that too is going to make for "kid intolerance" or should all the understanding and giving be on the part of those with out kids or whose kids are grown?
I'm not totally sure of what you're saying here, but if you're saying that if one of my friends had a major emergency at the same time as my children, then yeah, I'd have to choose my child over my friends. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the issue is.

However, all the understanding and tolerance shouldn't have to be on the part of the ones whose kids are grown, or who don't have kids. We should both work together to make this nation a place of family friendliness.

Quote:

Or if you go somewhere and your kid wants to play in someone's cupboards do you expect that they be allowed to , or do you respect that the homeowner doesn't want that and enforce it with your kids? What about folks who have different rules than you...do oyu expect they turn off the tv because you are there or allow your kid watch something that they don't normally allow?
If someone didn't want my child playing in their cupboards, then my child would not be allowed to play in their cupboards. I would hope that they'd have the TV off if I was visiting, however, because I'd want them to pay attention to me, their guest, if I were over. And of course, I'd reciprocate when they were my guest.

Quote:

Lots of you say that you don't feel you have to cover when you nurse in public.. but what about in someone else's home...or don't they have the right to be comfortable in their own homes? ANd I am NOT suggesting that one go to the bathroom to nurse just that one postion themselves so that the other person doesn't need to see or to cover up.
Nope, if my child has to eat, they have to eat. I'm nursing wherever. I would think that if I knew someone well enough to visit them in their home, that they'd know I would nurse without apology, and if they didn't like it, then they wouldn't invite me over until I was done nursing.

Quote:

What about child-proofing...I've had folks come in and tear down my alter because they did not want the kid near it...never asked just did it while I was in the bathroom.
That's horrible, and horribly rude. I would never childproof someone else's house. If I were visiting, I would just keep an eye on my child. If it were an extended stay, I would ask them about childproofing before I came.

I don't think anyone is saying "be rude to others for your children's sake". I think we're looking for ways that we can slowly integrate people of all ages and walks of life into one community.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I'm not totally sure of what you're saying here, but if you're saying that if one of my friends had a major emergency at the same time as my children, then yeah, I'd have to choose my child over my friends.
No, not if your kid has an emgercany at teh same time, but if say your friend has a parent die, or travels a great distance to see you and your kid wants you to go get a prom dress or has a dance recital..do you go to the funeral/make a call or visit to that friend/keep plans with them or do you say" sorry my kid first"...I've had both happen. Let me tell you that it says a lot to me about a person's values when ( in my case) I supported them through thick and thin, babysat when no one else would, even bought groceries when they were in need and the so called friend could not even take the time to attend my father's funeral..or when a friend who lives 500 miles from me let me travel 12 hours by greyhound to see her, pay for tickets for a concert, and then when I arrive declare "Plans have change Mary wants to use this week-end for dress shopping for the prom in May'" ( the week end in question was in Feb) and expects me to understand that her 17 year could not possibly do this anyother time but when we had plans...that the 17 year knew full well about before hand, because I talked to the kid and she asked if I was coming that weekend, and she asked in January.
I would have no problem if said friend skipped either occasion for a child's emergancy but such was not the case. And any human being who expects a parent be anywhere else besides their child's side in an emergancy is an unfeeling twit..but barring that don't those wihtoutkids deserve support/ respect too/?
Persephone, from your response to my post, I'd say you'd say yes, unfortunately for me and for many others that I know the answer coming from their friends with kids the answer is increasingly no.
And yes, there are some folks who just plain give me the creeps to. I would move away from them too...but every person who talk to/plays with kids in resutrants or stores is not a threat KWIM? I wish more folks did.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I guess I see it both ways. I wish that as a parent I wasn't automatically given a dirty look when I go to a restaurant or shopping mall, but at the same time I don't want to deal with someone else's screaming kid crawling on me (yes, this has happened and the mom did nothing about it) and I don't want to deal with other people's kids in a restaurant when it's so hard to find someone to watch my own kids. It's like, dh and I can only have an evening out every few months, and then we have to deal with tantrums and getting things thrown at us and kids running in front of us...and it's like our own kids might as well have been there.

All parents say "I'll take her out if she gets loud" but rarely do I see them do this. (Hey, I'm saying it myself - when my kids get loud or restless, I do remove them from the situation out of respect for everyone else!:LOL) At one event, all the parents were asked to leave the room with crying babies, and all the babies eventually started crying and yet none of the parents left. The ushers had to ask each mother to leave, and they all said "But he isn't even that loud!" Sometimes parents are oblivious to what their children are doing and how they affect others.

I do breastfeed in public, but I wouldn't necessarily think I had the right to do so in a private home. It's not my home. But it's not like I'd be friends with someone who felt that bf would not be OK in her home...

I think there are certain standards of behavior, and some of these are that it's not OK to scream, throw things, hit people, intentionally spill things, and run around getting in peoples' way. If my kids can't refrain from these things, I need to keep them out of public events or we need to leave as soon as they start doing these things.

There was one time when dh and I really wanted to go to an adult event. We had been told in advance not to bring our dd, who was then 5 months. We brought her anyway. We wanted to go that badly and decided we were willing to put up with everyone's disapproval. As it turns out, it all went fine, except for a few nasty comments we got.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Sometimes parents are oblivious to what their children are doing and how they affect others.

ITA Greaseball. This applies to ALL people EVERYWHERE.

Grown adults with cell phones at poetry readings are way more annoying than ANY small child IMO. The adult should know better, the child can't. If we had a modicum of respect for each other, the world would be more WORLD-friendly.

I feel like we need to re-examine our values on this though. Does a child crying at dinner "ruin" your dinner with your dh? Or do you smile symapathetically and say "been there, done that" If it's a parent that's not enlightened to the fact that they should use diversion techniques, can you make your point by saying "oh, i remember when my child would do that, a walk outside would always help. would you like me to hold him for you" of course they're not gonna let you take their kid, but they'll get the idea. When you're a parent, don't plan on sitting through a dinner.

If you're at a movie w/ your kid & they freak out, leave. I missed the 2nd Harry Potter b/c my 12 mo old wouldn't nurse anymore







But such is parenting. I caught it on video.

When I'm older, I hope to always be around little ones. They bring me joy, and we were all little at one time. People who want to segregate themselves will never experience what it's like to be at peace with little ones.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Good points mountain. I think the annoying things adults do are justified by other adults. "Oh, well, he had to answer the cell phone! It was probably important!" Whereas it's not seen as important when children cry; they just do it "for attention."









Although, I think some parents ignore their children in public to get a break from them, and I don't think that's OK.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

I expect my kids to be world-friendly. This generally means using the same type of courtesy as those around you. From the time they were toddlers, I felt it was fair to say to them, "Look around. Everyone else in this resturaunt is sitting in their chairs, speaking softly, using good table manners". We have memberships at all the local museums - they understand how to act. It would seem condescending on my part not to expect they would be capable of learning to behave reasonably. I coach them in advance of new situations and what might be expected. And, sure, they screw up sometimes - we usually just leave if they bother others. I don't take them everywhere with me. I study at the synagogue and that would be phenomenally boring to them, and would probably inhibit discussions to have kids listening. There are times I don't want to share my attention with them. But we homeschool and I work at home; most of my life involves them directly, without being set up as a kid oriented event.

Regarding multi-generational life. My mom lives with us, and is not especially kid-oriented. She needs her space, and we respect that. She has different interests at this stage in her life, and that feels quite normal and natural. I also care for 2 elderly residents in my home. Their needs are different still, they aren't as independent as Mom. The kids can be expected to respect other's needs (no running/yelling in the house, no legos left out on the floor, etc) without cramping their style too much. I am also becoming licensed as a foster parent for medically fragile infants. This will have some effect on all of us in the house, what we can do and when.

I guess what I am saying in a round about way, is that people need to be considerate of others, regardless of their ages. Since this thread is in the Activism neighborhood, I feel entitled to get on my favorite soapbox for a moment. I think "nice" is a vastly underrated trait. Many problems would be solved (or never started) if people could just be nice. Friendly, respectful, gracious, courteous all fall under this catagory. You know - the Golden Rule attitude pretty much sums it up. I'll step down from the soapbox now.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

There are times when I may be annoying to others through no fault of my own, and I stay away from other people's events if this is so. For example, if I have a cough, I don't go to the movies or to quiet events. Even though it's a fact of life and everyone sometimes coughs, I don't want to ruin the event for someone else.

But about family-friendly...I can understand why people don't want to be around children. They're loud, they make messes, they can be inconsiderate...some adults don't even want to live in neighborhoods with children. Whose rights are more important - those who want to raise families, or those who don't want to be exposed to others' families? Most people say they don't believe in "seen and not heard," but they themselves don't want to hear other people's children at inconvenient times.

I guess I'm just rambling and not making sense. Maybe I can just see things both ways. I don't want my children to annoy everyone around them, but I don't want to stifle them either; I want them to be normal children and normal children are loud and messy sometimes.


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## KoalaMama (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
But about family-friendly...I can understand why people don't want to be around children. They're loud, they make messes, they can be inconsiderate...some adults don't even want to live in neighborhoods with children. Whose rights are more important - those who want to raise families, or those who don't want to be exposed to others' families? Most people say they don't believe in "seen and not heard," but they themselves don't want to hear other people's children at inconvenient times.

If someone doesn't want to be exposed to families, then they should find a private island and go live there. Seriously, fill in the blank with seniors/gays/women/hispanics or any other "group" in society and you'd be jumped on in a minute! So absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the rights of children to exist as people within society trumps the rights of people who don't want to be exposed to other people's families.

I think the best way to make society more family friendly is to take kids places and 1. show them the appropriate way to behave 2. parent them responsibly. Most problems that people complain about regarding children have nothing to do with the kids, but rather with parental action/inaction. Respect for everyone is the basic key.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

No one's right's overshadow anyone's all the time. THere area some times when a child's rights should and do take precedence, there are other times when aldults should have the right to have their rights respected over those of children.
IMO, the key is balance and respect....for all. Kids do not belong everywhere...Bars and concerts at bars are a big point for me...I can count no less than 10 concerts I went to at bars this year ( all but one of the bands I like play at venues holding fewr than 1,000, bars are perfect for this type of band) and you'd not beleive the kids there or the demands of many of the parents...."no drinking smoking or course language, there are kids here" Hello, It's a bar! that's what they're for! as I am sure the parents here are aware.
Or when I went to a resort to learn more about weaving and fiddling..advertised as "Session 3A and 3B are Adult only, absolutely no children will be allowed in classes, even in the company of a parent" get there and you guessed it....kids in the classes..It's not unreasonable to expect that if I pay for no kids in my sessions, schedule my trip around the resort's advertised session schedule that I should get what I pay for...an adult's needs and learning styles differ greatly from those of a 6 or 10 year old's...but the children who were NOT paying they were the children of instructors in other disciplines were catered to and allowed to interfere with and disrupt the learn of the paying students....I learned nothing of fiddle as a result.
Adults have just as many rights as children and stating that those of us who want some time away from kids...I have never, ever known anyone that believed that kids should not be part of society, just that sometimes we adults want activites that are not child centered, times that are exclusively ours.
Yes, there are folks who want adult only housing, and sometimes I would like that too...when I hear folks whining about well he said this to my kid or you would not believe what those kids did and it's all minor stuff! I think senior housing has it's good points...No snow shoveling or grass cutting, someone to check in daily ( or more depending on need),ect...but I think we can all benifit from each other too...We need to start supporting each other rather than saying and acting like only one group has rights and the others be damned.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flowermom1*
As far as our society being family-friendly, I believe our society is more family-friendly than ever. There are kids clubs at every library. Malls have kids clubs. Even our local grocery store has a kids club. SUV's and minivans come with DVD players now to keep the kids occupied so the parents don't have to entertain them. Malls have play areas. McDonalds and Burger King have play areas. A lot of places now have family restrooms. Restaurants have childrens menus and parties. Parking lots have family parking up in front of the lot.


See - I think most of these things are horrible and separatist. (Except the restroom and maybe Library club). They create a world that SEPARATES families from non-families and children from adults. I don't think this is "family friendly," but child-centered. And that's not a good thing in my book. How do children learn to behave and integrate into adult society? Separating them makes the behavior of children worse - it makes them think they that will be entertained and catered to all the time. I don't want to be around those kids either!

As far as things I take my kid to - well, I don't really enjoy bars and loud concerts much, so I don't take her there. We have gone to Swing Dance and the Dances of Universal Peace. There are a few children, but not very many. I have to modify my dancing (can't always hold hands, etc) because I have a child. The few comments I've gotten were that they appreciated her there. And one knew she was breast fed (even though she wasn't nursing) because she stuck her hand down my shirt for her security nonnie. Our church has a very small children's group and we helped decorate the church for Christmas (only child there) and we will help take down decorations. Friends of mine have a small recorder group and I will begin taking her to the music practice (with their permission) so she can toot along. We do host sewing and cheesemaking at my house also. I am much less efficient with my daughter around, but I feel this is an investment. By the age of 4, I believe she will be a net-asset - an actual help. I want to bring my children into my world, I don't want a world that separtes them.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Ellien C: I totally agree. I see all of those things as making it impossible for people to get along. Always deviding them up. I don't think that McD's having a play ground makes America kid friendly YUCK!

andi 3k: It seems to me that you hav a lot of bad experiences with other people's kids. That is not all people and all people's kids though. I take my kids lots of places. I try very hard to have them be respectful and understand that they are around other people, I think most people do.
I personally have no problem when I go out seeing other people with kids. When dh and I get a chance to go out with out the kids... well we go to "grown up" places but I love seeing kids. I love kids period. I love being around them and I love seeing out and about. I also love see EVERYONE out and about.
I think overall, this country is very 25-50 centered. The money makers and spenders that is who counts. The elderly and the very young are locked up and people want to keep them out of site out of mind. Very sad. The people we could learn the most from... elderly their life experiences, the young how to see things in a new way. Lock up and kept out of site. Not to my liking at all.









H


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

OH, and to answer the OP question: I think it would be helpful if people educated themselves on the different stages of developemnt of all people... babys to elderly. I mean what you expect to see in "most" cases. Does that make since?

H


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Mamaofthree, things such as I discribed happen more often than parents want to realize...I know there are good kids, but fact is no matter how good they are there are someplaces that they just don't belong...and others where they are not going be welcome. I don't see why having some things be seperate, by choice or by law ( bars, certain movies ,ect) is a bad thing.
Not everyone has the same needs, likes or desires and that needs to be respected....not just "well My kids want to be here so tough on you" all the time,every time and for alot of childfree people that's how it FEELS, they feel marginalized, like second class citizens I fully expect to see children in society, all of the childfree folks I know do...but there are times when we don't want kids around-- don't think we should have to curtail activities or rearrange our homes, or what not...we just want to have time and space to talk about adult things with out being told " the kids are here, shush" or other such thing.
We feel that if we have a party of any sort and state it's adult only that parents should abide by that and not show up with kids in tow, or that if the kids are being overly loud in a resturant that they be taken out ( and as someone else in this thread pointed that rarely happens) and everyone else's rights be respected too.
I don't think kids should be locked away, but I do think that there needs to be more of a balance of "rights" not one side all the time over another...that is neither heathy nor conducive to a well rounded life for anyone.
You said you like seeing kids around, well, I can see that, there's times when I like to see them too, there's other's when I don't want to, and plan accordingly.... I either stay home, arrange to go places that advertise "Adults only" or plan a party that is adults only, in such cases I expect that my rights be respected too...sometimes they are, just as often they are not, such is life.
But, the thing that I am trying to say ( not apparently not succeeding at) is that those with out kids need to be part of society to and to be valued and have their feelings and rights be respected also. We need to start recognizing that "family" does not alwats mean "Adults and kids" that some families are just two adults together and some single folks have their own family units that families come in many sizes and all of them need to be included in this new vision of "family friendly" and that some times that is going to include things that are off limits to little ones.

OT: I gotta say that I have discussed this issue withmany people and on a few other boards and the folks here are by far the most willing to talk, ( not name call, demean or :lay down the law" ) listen and at least try to see all sides...Thank you , I think you all rock!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andi_3k*
We need to start recognizing that "family" does not alwats mean "Adults and kids" that some families are just two adults together and some single folks have their own family units that families come in many sizes and all of them need to be included in this new vision of "family friendly"

an excellent point. I'm really sorry for the way I phrased "families and non-families." Everyone is part of a family. My DH and I started calling ourselves family as soon as we got married. But is was another 5 years before we had kids.

Andi - You and I just disagree on some things and we've each made our points, so I won't beat it anymore.

So - back to things we could do. I think low-income housing should be built to include spaces that create community. Shared kitchens, large indoor playrooms on some floors. I actually read this somewhere else and it seemed like a good idea even before I had a child.

I've always thought the idea of combined ederly and child-care would work well, but I've never seen it, so I assume there must be licensing or legal issues there. Like what would you do if an Alzheimers patient hurt the child or the child tripped an older person. But doesn't it sound like a good idea?

I think we shouldn't force retirees out of the workforce at 65. I'm in my 30's and with the exception of 1 person in his 50's - everyone I work with is within 10 years of my age. That can't be good - not even for the company!


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

low-income housing should be built to include spaces that create community. Shared kitchens, large indoor playrooms on some floors. I actually read this somewhere else and it seemed like a good idea even before I had a child.
One of my dreams, shoud I ever have tons of money is to set up a community much like this...including the elder -child care scenario...Yes, there are issues with it but by and large it can work and be benificial to all.
I also wanted out door play grounds and skate parks for the teens, parenting classes, medicare care, craft/sewing/canning-> the whole bit so that all phases of life could be present and learn from/help each other.
maybe we're not all that different after all


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

This (above) is exactly my dream, and why I am doing this. My state (GA) allows Personal Care Home licensing and Foster Home Licensing together. Colorado & California don't allow it; I haven't inquired anywhere else. My Elderly or Disabled residents have to have a criminal background check (fingerprints) before moving in. And I need to make a judgement if everyone's needs will conflict or compliment. Sure there could be problems with psychiatric issues, but imagine a household with enough grandmothers that every baby always had a lap! YoungSon is now pleased with the elderly man who will play board games with him every evening (and I am glad to be relieved of this duty!!). I am still looking for a resident who can teach me the really fancy knitting that my late grandmother did. We're new at all this, but so far it seems to be working out well.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Really?! Tell me more about it. How many residents? How many children? Are you set up yet? That's fantastic.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Ellen - I'll pm you, but if anyone else is interested, just ask!


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

The whole low-income communtiy housing ideas are awesome.
Ellien C-







We also take our kids to lots of events (contra and folk dancing, concerts, ballets, plays, museums, restaurants, festivals, music circle, craft circles, etc). These are also usually events that people are thrilled to see children and pass on knowledge or a skill. We have pretty high standards of what is appropriate behavior and my kids do beautifully. Just last week we were at a restaurant and my children sat and watched some kids running around in the walkway where the servers come through with their food. They wanted to play but knew that that wasn't how we behave in restaurants, and also I brought them plenty of stuff to do at the table. If they can't behave in a way that is respectful to others, we just leave or take a breather outside, and it is no big deal.

Back the OP, I think there are alot of different definitions of what family-friendly means. Things like minivans with dvds, kids sections at malls and fast-food places are really just consumer-friendly and even child consumer-friendly. What I think of as truely family-friendly is everyone having clean air and water, being able to avoid toxins in our food and toys, adequate health care and housing for everyone. Kids should have the freedom to play and be loved and recognised as contributing members of our society, the same goes for people past 65. All these stories seem to be about people with no respect for others, not examples of kid's "needs" coming first. If the children's needs really were important, I think more energy would into what really matters to the health and well being of children.


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## KoalaMama (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
Back the OP, I think there are alot of different definitions of what family-friendly means. Things like minivans with dvds, kids sections at malls and fast-food places are really just consumer-friendly and even child consumer-friendly. What I think of as truely family-friendly is everyone having clean air and water, being able to avoid toxins in our food and toys, adequate health care and housing for everyone. Kids should have the freedom to play and be loved and recognised as contributing members of our society, the same goes for people past 65. All these stories seem to be about people with no respect for others, not examples of kid's "needs" coming first. If the children's needs really were important, I think more energy would into what really matters to the health and well being of children.


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