# Obstetrics/Gynecology and Sublimation



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

That intrathecal thread has certainly opened a lot of discussions!

When I was taking psych in college, one of the things we learned about were coping mechanisms. One of them being sublimating, where people take socially unacceptable traits and choose a career that makes them acceptable, ie; the voyuer takes up photography, the violent take up boxing, and the misogynist takes up gynecology or obstetrics.

The OB cutting my client against her wishes (posted in the intrathecal thread) did so with such glee it was sickening. I have no doubt in my mind that if he wasn't legally and in a socially acceptable way cutting women's privates up, he would no doubt be doing so in other dark and evil ways. Becoming an OB/GYN gives him an avenue for indulging in a perversion of his, and he can convince everyone, including himself, that cutting up vaginas is a good and right thing to do.
I see or hear about subtle forms of this often. Almost every woman I know detests having a pap smear done. When they come into my care, and I do a pap for them, they are amazed that it didn't hurt. Most tell me that their GYN (usually male) made it so traumatic for them that they put it off for years.
Vaginal exams that are rough and painful, interviews that take place with the woman naked and on a table with only a paper sheet to cover herself, having a woman remove her clothing before she even meets the doctor, these are all designed to make her more vulnerable and weak.
I even read a paper published in a ACOG journal about how to make a woman more compliant and less vocal by using the above mentioned techniques and others, like sitting behind a huge desk in a chair designed to make the doctor look bigger, while she sits in a small and uncomfortable chair. This is designed to bring back memories of being a child in the presence of an authority figure (think principals office) and to make her more likely to obey.

Thoughts?


----------



## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

I definitely think you have a point. I don't think this is true of course of every OB out there, but I've seen a lot who really get off on having control over women.
I think obstetrics as a field gets off on having control. Why else is there such amazing persistence of practices that are so clearly known to have no benefit? Why on earth is anyone in the world using routine episiotomies when dozens of studies have shown that they cause more pain, more tears and extensions, more incontinence, etc., etc.?
I have the same experience when I do pap smears, too. If I can mostly due them comfortably, surely everybody could
I don't understand how this got to be our birth culture, and how it can be reversed.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

_Oh no! I thought I was lifting a quote (yes I am narcissistic) from this post and replying to a post lower down on the thread, and I managed to erase my own (very eloquent if I do say so myself) post! Geez. Anyway, I think I said something like..._

I DO know why our birth culture is so horrible. Patriarchy has been seeking to remove and appropriate women's power for many years. Think of Goddess religion turned Christianity, midwifery turned obstetrics, witchcraft turned priesthood, the wage gap, the devaluing of work that has traditionally been the province of women.

Birth is tremendously powerful. It is the very perpetuation of human life. No wonder the patriarchy would seek to control it, by teaching women that it is too much for us, that our bodies are not built properly to do it, that we *need* intervention, and to get it we must unquestioningly accept what the medical establishment decides to do to us.

_Then I said this (the only part of my post I have left):_

This is the reason why I believe taking back our births is so important. I actually don't think epidurals have major effect on babies (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point). The point is that even IF individual interventions are relatively harmless, it is the culture of dependence on and control by the medical establishment that is so harmful.

_Anyway, carry on...







_


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I actually don't think epidurals have major effect on babies (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point). The point is that even IF individual interventions are relatively harmless, it is the culture of dependence on and control by the medical establishment that is so harmful.

I agree with you, actually. My reasons for not wanting an epidural are really more for myself than for my baby. I don't want the increased risk of a c-section, I don't want pitocin and an episiotomy because my body's ability to birth has been dampened by drugs, I don't want to passively "be delivered" of my baby. I want to be as present as possible in one of the most dramatically powerful moments of my life. I don't want to surrender that experience, even if it hurts like hell.


----------



## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

Oh yes yes yes! Not enough YES in the world to tell you how much I agree with you! I think this form of "care" (huh!) is institutionalised rape and violence against women. And we are just as accepting of it in our societies as we are of other forms of violence against women. After all, if we didn't accept it, wouldn't we all be working to stop it? Running programmes like "Birth is great and you're in charge of your own body" or "Drugs in birth? Just say NO!" or "If scalp monitors don't hurt, stick it in your head first!" "Episiotomy is genital mutilation." I am always so saddened by the women I come into contact with who are almost unable to own the trauma which occurred because their brain is in conflict over it. On the one hand they know it felt bad, but OTOH they are told over and over how doctors only do good, they only do stuff which is necessary yada yada yada. There are millions of women who think it's birth which is traumatic when in actual fact it's what was *done* to them under the guise of birth which is traumatic. And there are millions of traumatised women because of this conventional medical behaviour. What happened to bodily integrity? What happened to consent?
Oh I could rave for hours!


----------



## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

I agree with you totally! I don't think they _all_ are in it for that reason, but yeah. I can see that. That's a shame about your client.

I had something like that done to me with my first. It was a clinic, so I didn't get to choose my doctor, and the guy was a complete jerk. I told him I didn't want an episiotomy, and he laughed and did it anyway. At my pp visit i was *lucky* enough to get him again, and he told me I was starving my baby and that if I continued to breastfeed he's call cps... (slow weight gain). so me being naive and young and scared, quit. (much later on i when i knew so much more, i looked at her baby book and saw she had regained her birth weight plus 1/2 pound 5 weeks pp...)

anyway, yeah, i agree...


----------



## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!
Absolutely!!!! I remember the first time I finally realized that was true. I truely remember the moment. It was a revelation, and epiphany. It change my entire life from that moment on. I was ( and still am ) angry, angry, angry about it. I have dedicated much of my life since then to helping to be part of a change. Change is slow, but I'm willing to help one woman at a time.


----------



## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I always found it wierd and was very supicious of any male ob. And I am amazed you give pap smears and exams that don't hurt! I have had maybe....oh three in my life and that is all I will have. Next one I have (if I need one really bad) will definately be from a woman as I don't believe I should be taking my clothes off for a man other than my hubby even if he is a doc. My last exam I had done out of pure fear and ignorance. I had just gotten pregnant and hadn't found a mw yet and had such awful cramps that I was worried so I went to an ob. Everything was normal of course.

I left there feeling soooo awful. It hurt like heck when he stuck his fingers in me and then he stuck them somewhere else without asking! I'm like, "why do you need to check there?" Then when he examined my upper half he asked me to put my arms behind my head, ok, so I did. Then he left my legs in the stirrups and the top of my gown open while he chatted a bit about what he thought. You would think I would jump up and cover myself but strangly found myself frozen in that position feeling totally awful. I don't know why I didn't say anything, they truly do put you in a position of weakness and I felt so dumb for not saying anything about it.







:

I mean seriously, why the heck would a guy want to do this for a living??? Any decent guy I know says no way in hell he would do that for a living. What is the attraction? Gee, I wonder.

And how can any man do a better job than a woman when it comes to these things? They can't exactly relate...

Oh and HeatherE: luv the sig


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
Becoming an OB/GYN gives him an avenue for indulging in a perversion of his, and he can convince everyone, including himself, that cutting up vaginas is a good and right thing to do.
I see or hear about subtle forms of this often.

Years ago, I read an account by Bruno Bettleheim about a little boy cutting off the breasts of a Barbie doll...this was a little boy who was in therapy...he told Dr. Bettleheim that he wanted to take out all of the organs that women have to make babies because he did not like the fact that girls could make babies and little boys can not.

I do not know where I read this exactly, but I know for sure that I read it in reference to feminist literature.

i believe what you say, and I think that many men are in obstetrics.

Another note about obstetricians is that the cream of the medical school crop does not notably go into the ob/gyn field...the top of the class usually goes into internal medicine or cardiology.

Not always, but, obstetricians tend to come from the lower 10% of their medical class.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Question: What do you call the person who graduates last in their medical class?

Answer: Doctor.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
epidural do not hurt the baby. (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point).

No, it is not the point, then why make it...

See the twenty year study done by Bertil Jacobson done in the Scandanivian countries on just this point.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
...epidurals do not affect the baby. (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point).

No, it is not the point, then why make it...

See the twenty year study done by Bertil Jacobson done in the Scandanivian countries on just this point.

ETA

http://www.birthpsychology.com/lifeb...wombsafe3.html

Furthermore ask women whose mothers took DES if they were hurt; ask the third generation. No one really knows until it is too late. (seventy-eight years)

http://www.cdc.gov/DES/consumers/res...offspring.html


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

This is what I said in its entirety:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
This is the reason why I believe taking back our births is so important. I actually don't think epidurals have major effect on babies (pls don't flame or dispute, this is not the point). The point is that even IF individual interventions are relatively harmless, it is the culture of dependence on and control by the medical establishment that is so harmful.

I know many women who've given birth and opted for epidurals, and I don't like that it is yet another source of guilt for mamas disproportionate with its actual effects. Nobody I know has had a baby suffer any short-term or long-term noticeable effects from the epi, and yet many of my friends feel like







for "caving" and getting it.

I don't think saying "you must give birth 100% naturally, without any medical intervention" is the answer. I think it would be nice if interventions were provided when desired or necessary, and more focus was placed on offering choice, support, and power to women when we birth. And I wish epidurals didn't come wrapped in with all the woman-hating garbage of the medical establishment.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I think this is sometimes true, but it hasn't been my personal experience. My doctor for years was the doctor who delivered me. He was a GP, but also did obstetrics. He quit obstetrics, because he got burned out on the deliveries that didn't go well. He and my next doctor (also male) did most of the paps I've ever had done, and only one or two of them hurt...my first one did, but I think that's because I was tense.

My current doctor is my GP's wife. He quit obstetrics, and she hasn't, so I go to her for prenatal care. I actually find she's rougher with pap tests than her husband is. So, I think it depends.

As for my OB/GYN...he seems to be a really good guy. My sister saw him at one point, and she says he got into the field years ago because his mother had serious "female problems" when he was young, and I believe ended up having a hysterectomy. He didn't want to see that happening to other women, so he went into obstetrics and gynecology. Maybe I've been unusually lucky - I certainly haven't been through the kind of experiences you ladies are all describing!! (My doctors do use the paper sheet, but they're very good about keeping me covered.)


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

gah! ... hence, why i "fired" my OB and had a freebirth.









i now have my paps & birth control stuff done with a female physician's assistant at my family practice.

i think you have a huge point.


----------



## CrunchMama (Jan 29, 2005)

I never thought about the cutting womans bodies/misogynist aspect and now that I do....yikes *shiver*!
I think it was thismama who commented on "taking back birth". How sad that we've given it up in the first place. That we listen to people who tell us that we are not enough, our bodies, our instincts, our milk is not enough.
We are no longer taught to trust ourselves, only "the professionals", who really are just people, trying to figure things out (and do a piss poor job in some areas).
For instance, why is it assumed that the male sex organ is designed to expand and stretch and then resume it's "relaxed' state but a woman's is not? Why 'must' our genitals be cut. I guess Mother Nature wasn't paying attention the day she made us!

It makes me want to spit.







:


----------



## Mama25 (Jul 20, 2004)

SaraJane, loved your post, my feelings exactly on male obs. Even before I had my first child and didn't know about midwives natural birth etc. I just had a instinct of I want a female dr. I don't want a guy, why would I want a guy for female things.

Kim Ann


----------



## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

obstetrics is for people who want to do surgery, but yet they don't want to be "surgeons" per se - it's a highly surgical field.

I'm always amazed that people don't get that OBs are first and foremost, SURGEONS. to destroy something so you have to surgically piece it back together makes sense if you're a surgeon.

If you don't want to be cut, don't hire a surgeon.


----------



## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Thanks. And I was just sitting here thinking. Why do they have to feel your breasts anyway? I mean, they don't feel for very long, they don't feel all that hard or anything. I know what my breasts feel like and the chance of them finding something wierd is very small with the way they check (well, the way I have been checked at least). I would think I have a better chance of noticing something out of the ordinary with my own breasts than any doctor would. I carry them around all day and wash them in the shower and do self exams sometimes. I would notice lumps and things much easier than they would. Know what I'm saying?


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
If you don't want to be cut, don't hire a surgeon.

As in if you do not like to be bit, stay away from snakes?


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

LOL sarajane ~ the last exam i had, i warned the pa first that my right breast was extraordinarily full, as i hadn't had time to nurse my daughter on that side before i left for my appointment (i was running late). she just kind of went, "mm hmm" and did the exam, left side first, then went to my right and she said, "OH gosh, yes, you're right, this one IS full."







don't you think we know our bodies better than anyone else?

i wish more doctors / medicos in general (including midwives!) would respect that as women, we have the capability to be superiorly (is that a word?) connected with our bodies -- aware in a way that NO-ONE else will EVER be.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
superiorly (is that a word?)

mmm...

"...more superior...?"


----------



## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=superiorly

It is!


----------



## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I've always wanted to have female gynecologists, but oddly enough I've ended up mostly with men doing my pap smears and for the most part, they didn't hurt. I deliberately chose a female OB the first time around and ended up with a male in the practice that I had never met. Yet I think turned out better because he was a gentle man who had a much calmer approach to birth. Then the OB I chose for my second birth was a really nice guy who was very sweet to my older daughter. But he definitely seemed to be a surgeon first, since everyone I knew personally who had him wound up with c-sections. I ended up switching to a homebirth midwife.

So I've had positive experiences with men, but boy, does this post make a lot of sense. I've heard so many awful stories of male doctors treating their patients in horrible ways, mostly through birth stories and books about birth that I've read. The fact that they chose to go into OB/GYN because they had mysognistic tendencies makes sense to me. I've just always wondered why some men who obviously hated women went into this kind of practice, but maybe they did choose it deliberately.


----------



## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

I just want to throw in that the OBs who committed my birthrape were women. It's more than the package in your pants, it's the package between your ears too...


----------



## BensMom (May 4, 2002)

Funny you guys should mention this. This article just ran in a local magazine. This man is proudly admitting to being a discusting, misogynistic, ego-maniac. Our birth network has already contacted the editor and will be following up in other ways, to bring this monster to task.

Personally, I had a great relationship with my last OB. He was always very respectful during paps, exams, etc. He took time to meet with us in his office - person to person. So there are good apples in the bunch. But like someone said above, if you dont want to be cut, dont hire a surgeon. This time I am planning a HB with a DEM.


----------



## CrunchMama (Jan 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanetF*
I just want to throw in that the OBs who committed my birthrape were women. It's more than the package in your pants, it's the package between your ears too...

So true JanetF! It's the model of medicalized childbirth and childrearing (think Ezzo) that we must second guess, not our own intuition.
One would like to think that women would know better, but I guess if we all knew better, OB's would be out of business.
pax


----------



## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:

I see or hear about subtle forms of this often. Almost every woman I know detests having a pap smear done. When they come into my care, and I do a pap for them, they are amazed that it didn't hurt. Most tell me that their GYN (usually male) made it so traumatic for them that they put it off for years.
I guess I'm an exception to this. I've have two female CNMs, One female GP, and one male OB/GYN do PAP smears on me. The only one who was gentle was my OB. I'm still not going to go back to him though, because he wanted to induce me at 39 weeks, 6 days because he'd be out of town on my "due" date.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BensMom*
Funny you guys should mention this. This article just ran in a local magazine. This man is proudly admitting to being a discusting, misogynistic, ego-maniac. Our birth network has already contacted the editor and will be following up in other ways, to bring this monster to task.

Ew. What a serious creepola. Provides an interesting insight tho, into how OBs might think. Glad the birth network is on it.


----------



## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

I have the same feelings about obs. I really don't understand why there are so many more male obs than female ones. I have heard that men really like the aspect of birth that its mechanical, but thats also why they are so bad with anything outside the norm. Thats why they have to make birth and labor happen in a certain way.

I am really lucky that I had an old school ob who was very pro natural birth and was very good when he did internals. He never hurt me. His office uses cotton gowns too, big old long ones







I could get up and go to the bathroom in it.

Exams that hurt aren't always because the dr is trying to hurt you. The only time I was hurt by an exam was when 2 drs in training (women) did it. They actually wanted my midwife to do it because they were so unsure of themselves. She didn't even have hospital privaleges. Also the plastic speculums suck! They don't lock in place well and trust me you don't want one of those to snap closed on you during an exam! Ouchie!

I read a story years ago about a man who would drug women and then instead of rape them liked to cut their vaginas. So I def think that if these drs weren't doing it in a legal way they would be out there doing it illegally. Just like the American populus seems to think that women giving birth is somehow sexual. If its so sexual and can only be managed by an ob then what does that say about obs?

Surgeons enjoy surgery, thats why they are sugeons. My pcp says the same thing Applejuice said.

I was thinking about epidurals the other day. While women aren't strapped down to the bed anymore like they used to be, now they are given epidurals and are paralyzed. Women are told its for your benefit, you will feel no pain. It keeps women in bed just like 50 years ago when they were strapped down. It keeps women inactive. If they were to say no to a procedure what is she going to do? She can't get up and leave. Fight or flight mechinism during labor when threatened does not work then. A woman can do neither so she must give in.

I must run, but I have thuroughly enjoyed this thread.

Michelle


----------



## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

My vaginal exams have always hurt, even when done by someone who I know wasn't misogynist. But then it makes sense to me that a vagina that isn't aroused isn't going to be happy about being stretched.

But yeah, I personally just think it is really weird that men want to do the clinical thing with women's vaginas. I just don't get it. I've had it done, it wasn't awful or abusive or anything, but it wasn't just fine and dandy either -- it was _weird._ Out of harmony with the natural way of things. Dischord. And I agree that many of them are probably misogynist to some degree or other. They certainly prefer for women to sit passively by and worship them while they tell them what to do, and what is going to be done to them "in their best interest."

But the _worst_ experience I ever had was with a female nurse practitioner. She was absolutely awful. She treated me like a child, sneered at my choice of birth control (telling me I wouldn't want to do condoms until menopause and I'd better talk to a doctor about sterilization,) and she literally _mauled_ my breasts during the breast exam and they were hard and hurt for days afterward (I was lactating at the time.) That was assault, pure and simple. I'm still ashamed of myself that I didn't write up a formal complaint about her.









Here's a perspective from a male doctor that is relevant to the discussion:

http://upalumni.org/medschool/ob-gyn.html


----------



## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

it was not so long ago as 50 years that they straped women down- when I had our first 27yrs ago this was still the practice and I was strapped in and they only did "mini shaves" that was the new thing , DH was at the birth with me and he had to attend classes in order to be there and the doctor met with him before hand and said he could become impotent if he watched the birth and that he personally would never be with his wife while she had her babies (they ended up having 6, all c sections)...
And now they strap women in with epidurals and monitors ( I think of them as hidden restraints) ---
Physicians gaining a major foothold in birth had to do with belief systems of the past-so women who suffered from lack of orgasm- were treated by male doctors via manual stimulation-- lack of orgasm had a host of diseases atributed to it everything from hysterics, infertility, chronic illnesses... you name it this is also how the first vibrator was invented as a true medical device( we may think of it as quack medicine now, but was part of true medicine in the past). this little detail coupled with wealthy women how could aford treatments and induced their husbands to pay for charity maternity homes for poor women run by these "doctors". after they gained a foot hold they were on a mission to get rid of midwives....


----------



## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

What an interesting thread. When I was first exploring birth, I talked to a good family friend who's a retired OB-GYN. He told me that he always liked to do an episiotomy because he could "control the cut". Now, I don't think he was a bad or sadistic guy--he genuinely thought a "controlled" cut was better for a woman than the uncertainty of a tear--but that word "control" definitely set off some bells in my head. Clearly he needed the feeling that he was in control of the labor in order to feel that he was doing his job. And to me, labor is something that should be controlled--it's something that you just have to roll with!

I also had a horrible experience with a male OB--actually, too horrible for me to even discuss it--that I had to go to an emergency situation. That experience scared me off of EVER going back to a male OB, even though I know it wasn't his gender at fault. I've also been to one terrible female OB (though terrible for different reasons--dismissive and hurried). On the other hand, I went to a fabulous CNM for my care in college and am currently seeing a wonderful, thoughtful, and non-intimidating OB-GYN. She talks me through everything she does, and ends each appointment with a long sit-down chat in her office (both of us clothed







).

All in all though, I do think my combined experiences will lead me to choose a midwife for my births. I don't think all doctors are evil, by any means (my dad is a wonderful one), but I do think that that control issue underlies many--but not all--doctor-patient relationships, as well as a sense that "doctor always knows best."


----------



## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

I was thinking a lot about control today while attending a birth. I think the standard lithotomy position, for the doc's comfort, puts the doc in a physical position of control. Same with making a woman undress for a visit, or having the doc stand while she sits, or the doc behind a big desk. Everything is arranged not only for the doc's comfort and convenience, but also leaving the woman in a submissive position.
Today, I attended a birth where the mom pushed her baby out kneeling, with her hands and arms up over the back of the bed put at 90 degrees. I squatted and then knelt on the floor to receive the baby. I had to laugh thinking about these control issues as I was definitely the lowest person to the ground today!


----------



## katja (Apr 13, 2004)

Dr Jen, every time I see your posts I wish you were in Chicago, in case I ever need a hospital birth. And Fourlittlebirds, that link is really something. Wow.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

The lithotomy position in childbirth came about between the obstetrical breakthrough of forceps by the Chamberlain brothers and Anesthesia d'la Reina in 1753. According to Suzanne Arms in Immaculate Deception, Louis XIV had a perversion : he enjoyed watching his mistresses give birth and would watch by hiding behind a nearby curtain. HOwever when the parturient squat on the customary birthing chair, he could see very little, even tho this was a more comfortable position for the birthing woman in so far as she had gravity to her advantage. Louis XIV asked the court obstetrician to convince the women that laying on a high table on their back would be easier to deliver their babies. It was easier, easier for Louis XIV, not the women.

So, all women can expect to deliver their babies flat on their backs without the advantage of gravity, depriving their babies of oxygen by laying on all of their major arteries, and unable to get up and find something more comfortable.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
My vaginal exams have always hurt, even when done by someone who I know wasn't misogynist. But then it makes sense to me that a vagina that isn't aroused isn't going to be happy about being stretched.

But yeah, I personally just think it is really weird that men want to do the clinical thing with women's vaginas. I just don't get it. I've had it done, it wasn't awful or abusive or anything, but it wasn't just fine and dandy either -- it was _weird._ Out of harmony with the natural way of things. Dischord. And I agree that many of them are probably misogynist to some degree or other. They certainly prefer for women to sit passively by and worship them while they tell them what to do, and what is going to be done to them "in their best interest."

Here's a perspective from a male doctor that is relevant to the discussion:

http://upalumni.org/medschool/ob-gyn.html

Ya thats a doozy... I remember reading that a few years ago...







:


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

I have to say overall I have had "better" experiences with male ob's than female.. in fact I have had complete utter breakdowns of communication with female obstetricians and won't let them near me anymore years ago I had a fabulous female MD her name was Karen Mcarthur..(she moved to conneticut.. anyone in conneticut who needs a female md look her up!) she was very respectful and made a huge difference. That said...I have met one male OB who was a complete whack job and I told him so and walked out, but overall I find its the women obstetricians who seem to have other motives and are very angry at the female body in general.

I have severe issues with allowing a man other than my husband to have access to my body it just feels very violating to me. I have never found internals done by "medicos" to not hurt.. they are always painful and degrading. I am at a place these days where if I need to know anything about my cervix I will do that myself thanks. or ask my husband to do it for me (I can usually not reach it in pregnancy) :LOL its just alot easier that way.. oh ya.. and no pain


----------



## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

I've read the article in Linda's link before. Sadly, this was the state of medical education for many years, and maybe even still is in places. The anesthetized patients who students did pelvic exams on weren't even there for gyne procedures most of the time. Poor women would come for gallbladder surgery or something, and have 3 students practice pelvic exams on them.
I was fortunate to go to a medical school with a very strong sense of ethics. We learned to do pelvic exams with paid, trained volunteers who both taught us in a lecture format what to do, then were our trained simulated patients who could talk you through the exam as you did it. At our medical school, they also made all the guys get on the table and lay in stirrups (with their clothes on, though) so they could get the idea of what it was like to be in such a vulnerable position. I always thought it was great to learn on someone who knew they were my first pelvic exam, and not some poor unsuspecting patient. They also stressed appropriate language to use, and appropriate ways to help the patient feel as comfortable and involved as possible. It was a great service.
I'd like to say the OB dept. was woman-centered and taught about empowering births, but it was actually awful. The group of educators who were responsible for making sure we learned how to perform exams of all types were wonderful - but the OB dept was awful. I was so traumatized by my OB rotation that I decided to do family practice instead of obstetrics. I figured if I had to put up with the misogynist, arrogant, controlling attitude all throughout residency I'd lose my mind and either get myself kicked out or jump off a roof.


----------



## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanetF*
I just want to throw in that the OBs who committed my birthrape were women. It's more than the package in your pants, it's the package between your ears too...

Oh..so, true, so true. Nothing disgusts me more than women who violate other women. Female Ob's and MEDwives...


----------



## eksmom (Jun 29, 2004)

I have always steered clear of male OB/GYNs because I didn't trust their reasons for going into the profession. For the birth of my DD, I went to a practice of 4 women OBs, and I only liked one of the 4. The others wouldn't give me any information about my own body (i.e. blood pressure, etc.) and talked down to us when we refused some prenatal testing. I don't remember how rough they were with me physically because I have always hated the indignity of internal and breast exams. I just grit my teeth and get through them.

Anyway, my mother has always believed that male OBs are nicer to women than female OBs, because (if?) they respect women's ability to give birth since it is something they cannot do / have not done. She feels that because a female OB has probably already gone through pregnancy and childbirth, she is not as likely to cut the patient some slack, answer questions, etc. It's the "I did this, you can too, now buck up, it's no big deal" attitude.

I'm not sure if I'll test out her theory the next time I am pregnant or not.


----------



## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

When discussing the state of modern obstetrics with my cousin who is an OB, and who firmly believes in midwifery care for ALL low-risk women, she freely admitted that she is an OB because she is a "surgery junkie." Ack.

Good discussion.


----------



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

One of the best OB's I know is a man, you can't find a gentler, more compassionate birth attendant than him. And he hates surgery, lol! He actually refuses to break the bed down and sits on the end to catch, makes eye contact, and gives the most detailed informed consent I have ever heard from a doctor, waiting between contractions to continue. I've never heard him speak patronizingly to a woman, and he always speaks in soft tones.
talking to him after a difficult transport and a succesful vaginal birth, he said, "Every woman deserves the chance to say "I did it myself!"

One of the most egotistical, mysoginistic and abusive birth attendents I know is a midwife. Some women hate other women.

I think women who attend med school are under a lot of pressure to be more "old boy's club" than the old boys themselves, sort of that "We have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good" thinking. Women are accused of being too emotional, too empathetic, not having enough balls to be efficient, impersonal care providers. so, in order to fit in and survive, they put up a full suit of body armour. By the time they begin practice, it's become a habit.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

IME, women doctors are gentler and more informative than men. I always thought it had to do with a kind of empathetic, BTDT kinda thing.

Although there was a history of women and medicine class in university that talked about when men took medicine away from women so to speak, and even women today are practising men's medicine.


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

This is a good thread.

The history of obstertrics intrusion into birth is sad and infuriating. Not that there aren't wonderful OB's out there, but yeesh. In Ina May's Guide to Childbirth she says something about doctor's who believe in natural approaches to childbirth calling themselves "MD- midwives in disguise." Sad that so few appear to think like that.


----------



## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i think it is very sad that at a time when we have tremendous access to information that women actually know so little about their bodies and seem to trust our bodies so little. culturally it seems we think of our bodies as a nuisance!

think of how little women in our culture knows about our menstrual cycles and how very few women honor their body's wisdom and how we don't pass that knowledge onto our daughters. the same with birth, we hide it from each other in hospital settings where strangers make the rules and call the shots. we seek care from males who know very little about the mystery of being a woman and who set standards for care that keep us in the dark and in their control. they tell us we can make informed choices but the choices really aren't informed at all. women give birth in a setting that does not encourage women to trust their own intuition or knowledge that is within us. it does not empower women.

are there some caring compassionate male doctors/OB's? absolutely. but they are far and few between. i love the idea of women supporting and empowering and educating women. i love the idea of women taking back their power and loving the bodies we're in and trusting that we can do what we know how to do!

okay, just a few of my thoughts, i have so much more i could say but now it's back to my life








mandi


----------



## Thmom (May 4, 2004)

this is a long article but I think very relavent to the discussion

http://www.birthpsychology.com/messages/intro.html

what saddens me the most is how many women accept this type of treatment without a seconds thought.


----------



## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

Just want to mention that this topic is discussed in Male Practice by the late Dr. Mendelsohn of How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor fame. I've been looking for a copy for a long time, but have yet to stumble across it.







:


----------



## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

your looking for the book "How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor" ??

Here is one on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

It is on Amazon.com too.


----------



## katja (Apr 13, 2004)

Ooh, Crystal Clear, my copy of Male Practice just fell victim to my recent decluttering. I thought it was a really good book. (It's not the same as How to Raise...)


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Male-practice: How Doctors MANipulate Women, by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, and another:

Male-practice, by Gena Corea.

Both very good.


----------



## Marlet (Sep 9, 2004)

I haven't read everything but I have to agree with the ones I have read! The intimidation comments are so true! I have gone into a new office (transferring from one to the next) and come out with things I wouldn't have gone for. I haven't gone for awhile because of my last time getting birth control. I went in to get birth control so that I could be safe at what was going on in my life at that time. The lady lectured me on having sex before I had "found the ONE man I was going to be with, the man I was going to marry". She then went on to give me a brand of birth control I specifically asked her not to give me. I asked her for anything but this brand. She asked why and I told her my issues with it. She gave me a blank stare and told me that's why she was giving me the lower dose and walked out. I wasn't about to protest. I was too scared to at that point. I was pissed for being lectured and then shocked that my requests were thrown away just like that.

I have however been lucky with never having a painful exam though. I was always baffled at why everyone told me they hurt. I have NEVER felt anything during the exam.

ETA: Thinking back I have to take that last statement back. When I went for my pregnancy confirmation for WIC the doctor I got took a culture and in doing so had to use one of those duck billed things. The nurse who was handing him things didn't put any lube on it so it went in dry and HURT like crazy! That doctor is rough. I have had him one other time and that was to check on some bleeding I was having. He did a manual exam and was not so gentle. I have since stopped seeing him (and that office).


----------



## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

Sorry if that was confusing! I'm looking for Male Practice. I have a copy of How to Raise a Healthy Child...., as well as his Confessions of a Medical Heretic (which calms and soothes me when I feel like maybe I'm a little too radical :LOL )

Sorry, don't want to hijack............

eta: I just noticed that the title is hyphenated, which may explain why I can never find it! Back to the hunt....


----------



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandib50*
i think it is very sad that at a time when we have tremendous access to information that women actually know so little about their bodies and seem to trust our bodies so little. culturally it seems we think of our bodies as a nuisance!



I've noticed many younger women are terrified they'll be labeled as a {gasp!} _feminist_ if they stick up for themselves or get "too" radical. I don't know when 'feminist" became such a dirty word, but.....there ya go.

We're expected to menstruate and deny it. "More absorbant! Slim and trim design! You can almost forget you have your period!" showing happy, obviously _not_ menstruating, young women playing tennis, swiming, horseback riding, going on a date with really hot guy, and we're supposed to be wearing pristine white pants. "What period? I forgot all about it!"

We're supposed to birth and not feel it. In fact, we should be watching The Price Is Right from our hospital beds while the nurses watch a monitor from their desks until they tell us it's time to push.

We're supposed to have a baby and be up and bouncing around in a few days, running errands, shopping, cleaning, entertaining and we're supposed to be deliriously happy.

We're supposed to douche, powder, spray and wipe so G-d forbid our vaginas don't smell like a _vagina!_


----------



## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

C_c: here's the book! Happy reading!








http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cg...1856&meta_id=1


----------



## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_clear*
Just want to mention that this topic is discussed in Male Practice by the late Dr. Mendelsohn of How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor fame. I've been looking for a copy for a long time, but have yet to stumble across it.







:

I have that book. Its extremly good. Well Actually I have both books :LOL They are both good. Also The American Way of Birth is also right up the alley with this discussion.

Michelle


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
We're supposed to douche, powder, spray and wipe so G-d forbid our vaginas don't smell like a _vagina!_

-- reminiscent of Even Cowgirls Get the Blues.









(( great post btw ))

some links of interest ~

http://www.michelodent.com/news.php?id=6

http://www.michelodent.com/news.php?id=14

http://www.freestone.org/articles/FearOfBirth.html


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_clear*
... as well as his Confessions of a Medical Heretic (which calms and soothes me when I feel like maybe I'm a little too radical :LOL )

This book was first written in 1978, twenty-seven years ago!

Many of you were not even born then!

A generation has passed, and things have not gotten much better; this makes me so sad!

A post script: I have a first edition copy, that I got signed by him personally in 1988 before he died. He is missed.


----------



## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

sevenkids said:


> I've noticed many younger women are terrified they'll be labeled as a {gasp!} _feminist_ if they stick up for themselves or get "too" radical. I don't know when 'feminist" became such a dirty word, but.....there ya go.
> 
> We're expected to menstruate and deny it. "More absorbant! Slim and trim design! You can almost forget you have your period!" showing happy, obviously _not_ menstruating, young women playing tennis, swiming, horseback riding, going on a date with really hot guy, and we're supposed to be wearing pristine white pants. "What period? I forgot all about it!"
> 
> ...


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

:: bleggggh :: yeah we were just talking about the no-period issue in psych class ~ how now you can just keep on taking your birth control pills continuously with no week-long break in between, and you won't get a period.









i think my ob said it best when, years ago, he explained that our periods are like a heart beat or blood pressure: they can tell us how healthy we are, and that everything in our body is working right. when we're healthy and everything is going well, we menstruate, usually in predictable cycles. but if something is *off* a little, we might miss a period or start spotting, or our periods will be late or early... etc. if we're in tune with our bodies ~ doesn't that empower us more than suppressing a natural bodily function?







(( eta: amazingly, that was one thing he was actually *right* about.







))

EDUCATION -- NOT drugs -- is the key to empowerment.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yeah, but a period on birth control is not actually a period. The only reason the inventors of birth control had the placebo week to allow for bleeding is because they thought women would be too stupid to understand the concept that not having a period does not necessarily mean one is pregnant.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

If any woman would read the true story behind the development of the birth control pill, no thinking woman would take it...

...during the very first trial, the first group of women to test the birth control pill were poor Puerto Rican women. About a third* of them died in this first study of symptoms that suggested thromboembolism, however no one bothered to follow up and find out WHY these women died. All that mattered was the fact that they were not pregnant, although I do not know if they checked for that either.

When I have told this fact to young women, they say, "Well, the Pills nowadays are different - they have more progesteron, less estrogen..."

Yes, that is true, but how long were the estrogen pills around before the pharmaceuticals decided to change it? How many women died before the estrogen pills were taken off the market, and why was this not tested for before being marketed...?

Women are not guinea pigs.

*Editted to say that the number was not 1/3 of the women but three or five of the women.


----------



## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

WoW, I read the first post and then a few others... Geez, I thought I was the only one absolutely turned off by medicine... guess I'm in good company.

Maybe I'll read more later, but right now I have work to do...


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

aj, can you provide a source for the history please? i'm interested in knowing more.

//nak


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Maybe those pharmacists who are refusing to fill birth control pill prescriptions are doing women a favor, applejuice.


----------



## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Subbing


----------



## BrowneyedScorpio (Mar 29, 2005)

BensMom said:


> Funny you guys should mention this. This article just ran in a local magazine. This man is proudly admitting to being a discusting, misogynistic, ego-maniac. Our birth network has already contacted the editor and will be following up in other ways, to bring this monster to task. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
aj, can you provide a source for the history please? i'm interested in knowing more.//nak

I am sorry, but my information in my previous post was wrong, and I will note it...

My sources are Barbara Seaman, "Dangers of Oral Contraceptives", and Dr. Robert Mendelsohn in Male-Practice. I am still looking for my book by Gena Corea.

I admit these are old references. However, the information about the slipshod research done and lack of follow up, and then the FDA approving this medication for half of the American population is very telling as to how women are viewed in this society to this day. Furthermore, reading the insert for any one of the oral contraceptives on the market today will still yield the same side-effects listed below.

The Pill was approved by the FDA in 1960. Women cheered everywhere.

Yet, in 1967, a delegation of Western journalists were granted an interview with Boris Petrovski, the Soviet Minister of Health. Asked why the Pill was not being used in Russia, Dr. Petrovski replied, "We do not want our children born with deformed hands and feet."

The journalists were confused - was Petrovski mixing the Pill up with thalidomide (which was never approved for use in the U.S.)? However, ten years later there were confirmations of a thalidomide-like syndrome in a small number of babies exposed to the hormones of the Pill in the early weeks of the pregnancy especially baby boys. Why did the Russians already know about this and the Americans did not? - Because the drug companies did not tell them, that is why, even though the information was out there.

Barbara Seaman helped to write the book,The Doctor's Case Against the Pill , by Dr. John Schrogie, the FDA's principal expert on the subject. He wanted doctors to stop giving the Pill to women over forty, to women who smoke; he was extremely worried about women having heart attacks while on the Pill.

The original study to test the Pill was done in Puerto Rico on 132 women who took the Pill for at least a year. Most of the other subjects drifted in and out of the program and were lost to follow-up. Three (Dr. Mendelsohn says five) women died during the study of symptoms that suggested a stroke, but no autopsies were performed. Based on this one sloppy study, the Pill was approved for use.

At least they were not pregnant!

Side-effects noted over the years:

embolisms, liver tumors, hemorrhage, gall bladder disease, decrease in GTF, hypertension, amenorrhea, infertility, lower lactation, fluid retention; if present, migrane, asthma, epilepsy may be aggravated; kidney dysfunction, breast tenderness, depression, rash, and a change in the change in the hormone balance of the vagina which makes the woman more vulnerable to STD's.

Every woman taking the Pill should go in every year for a check up to be sure she is not developing any health problems from it and decide whether or not to continue taking it.

However I have known women to take the Pill for several years without a break.

Doctors favorite retort to all of this is "The Pill is safer than a Pregnancy!!"

I hope this helps.


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

thank you for the information.

do you know what the rates are for the occurrences of those possible side effects? from what i know, they are extremely low, but i'd be interested in any evidence to the contrary you might be able to provide.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

There's another side effect that's not mentioned there. I was on the pill for several years (with annual checkups) from about 15 to about 21. During that time, my sex drive almost completely disappeared. When I went back off the pill (to conceive ds), I was shocked when I realized what it felt like to have a normal sex drive again. I'd just assumed that my "on pill" self was the way I was. I know at least one other girl who said the same thing happened to her. Of course, I never told my doctor, so it's possible this has simply slipped under the research radar.


----------



## Thmom (May 4, 2004)

I wonder when colostomy bags will become "fashionable" so we can avoid the inconvience of moving one's bowels...

I think that most women are mislead on the risks vs. benefits of hormonal birth control.


----------



## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

has anyone ever read the obgyn.net forums? the professional forums? if anyone ever wants to know what OBs really think, they should go there.

it's all fear of litigation 24/7. everything. even when challenged with evidence-based studies.

oh, and the sexism there is huge. in a recent post, one doctor said that he felt old. another doctor chimed in with "you're only as old as the woman you're feeling".

ugh.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
has anyone ever read the obgyn.net forums? the professional forums? if anyone ever wants to know what OBs really think, they should go there.

it's all fear of litigation 24/7. everything. even when challenged with evidence-based studies.

oh, and the sexism there is huge. in a recent post, one doctor said that he felt old. another doctor chimed in with "you're only as old as the woman you're feeling".

ugh.

wow. That site is absolutely fascinating. It sure does give insight into how they think and their motivations for unnecessary interventions. Scary.









There's a thread there called "Those Crazy VBAC's" (from March 4). Nice.







:


----------



## Thmom (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
has anyone ever read the obgyn.net forums? the professional forums? if anyone ever wants to know what OBs really think, they should go there.

it's all fear of litigation 24/7. everything. even when challenged with evidence-based studies.

oh, and the sexism there is huge. in a recent post, one doctor said that he felt old. another doctor chimed in with "you're only as old as the woman you're feeling".

ugh.

okay... that is worse than watching a baby story!!


----------



## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
has anyone ever read the obgyn.net forums? the professional forums? if anyone ever wants to know what OBs really think, they should go there.

it's all fear of litigation 24/7. everything. even when challenged with evidence-based studies.

oh, and the sexism there is huge. in a recent post, one doctor said that he felt old. another doctor chimed in with "you're only as old as the woman you're feeling".

ugh.

I always thought the only reasons drs did anything was because of fear of being sued. Now I have proof









Michelle


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

...









hold on...








how about they stop seeing women as troublesome machines that constantly need fixing and instead allow us to tune into our natural rhythms and learn about ourselves WITHOUT the "necessity" of drugs and surgery? how about they recognize that the female body is perfect the way it is, without men or tools to interfere? how about we empower women through education about themselves and the way their bodies are made?

i guess that's not lucrative enough.







:


----------



## TRIBE (Apr 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
years ago I had a fabulous female MD her name was Karen Mcarthur..(she moved to conneticut.. anyone in conneticut who needs a female md look her up!) she was very respectful and made a huge difference.

I just looked her up and found her! I have not wanted to have my midwives place my IUD after my birth experience with them so I have been looking for someone else. Now I have a recommendation and will try and set an appt with her. Thank you!!


----------



## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
There's another side effect that's not mentioned there. I was on the pill for several years (with annual checkups) from about 15 to about 21. During that time, my sex drive almost completely disappeared. When I went back off the pill (to conceive ds), I was shocked when I realized what it felt like to have a normal sex drive again. I'd just assumed that my "on pill" self was the way I was. I know at least one other girl who said the same thing happened to her. Of course, I never told my doctor, so it's possible this has simply slipped under the research radar.

Yeah, they never tell you about that effect. I had practically no sex drive on the pill. None. I have taken it a few times for short periods and it sucks. Some women love it. They can have it. It doesn't make me feel well at all. The Yasmin cleared up my acne after everything else failed but I had no sex drive. Just felt blah. I actually like my natural rythm of hormones during my cycles. Imagine that. I do find it funny how women try to escape from every last thing that makes them feel like a woman, their periods, hormone fluctuations, then they want to get numb for childbirth. Not my thing. I enjoy being a woman tremendously.

Oh, and I have perused the obgyn.net forums. It is enlightening.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mara*
Yeah, they never tell you about that effect. I had practically no sex drive on the pill. None. I have taken it a few times for short periods and it sucks. Some women love it. They can have it. It doesn't make me feel well at all. The Yasmin cleared up my acne after everything else failed but I had no sex drive. Just felt blah. I actually like my natural rythm of hormones during my cycles. Imagine that. I do find it funny how women try to escape from every last thing that makes them feel like a woman, their periods, hormone fluctuations, then they want to get numb for childbirth. Not my thing. I enjoy being a woman tremendously.

Well, I could do without periods, but only because I inherited cycle-linked migraines from my mom. Although, thankfully, I don't get them anywhere near as badly as she did! Aside from that, there are times I don't like being a woman (like when I simply can't reach something or move something because I'm too short or whatever), but I find pregnancy makes up for most of that.


----------



## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
obstetrics is for people who want to do surgery, but yet they don't want to be "surgeons" per se - it's a highly surgical field.

I'm always amazed that people don't get that OBs are first and foremost, SURGEONS. to destroy something so you have to surgically piece it back together makes sense if you're a surgeon.

If you don't want to be cut, don't hire a surgeon.











right on.....I like to point out to folks that if you're depressed, it's appropriate to seek help from a psychologist or therapist...you don't need a neurologist!!!!!! Brain surgery if your brain needs it...a wise guide if your mind needs it. Birth rarely needs a surgeon; often can benefit from a wise guide (doula, friend, partner, mw, etc.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thmom*
I wonder when colostomy bags will become "fashionable" so we can avoid the inconvience of moving one's bowels...

OMG....totally. Birth is like taking a dump. Privacy is a must, you know when and how to push, you were born knowing how to do it, and even if the poopies vary in size, amount, and consistancy, you're able to squeeze it out each time. AND yes, rarely, there ARE people who need the assitance of MDs in the field to help them poop. But right--does everyone need a colostomy? Like, 27% of people need that 'cause regular pooping is just barbaric, can sometimes hurt, and can stretch a body part (that was MADE to stretch!!!!)









obgyn.net is classic. It's all right there. These sOBs aren't trying to hide anything, when the last thing they should be doing is broadcasting their biases and failings loud and clear.

I thought The Pill was invented by a Catholic, and he thought that including a week of 'period' would be the key to having the Church approve of his birth control invention. I read that in _The New Yorker_ years ago.


----------



## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

yes, birth IS like moving one's bowels.









and just a little aside ~ on the subject of sex drive taking a nose dive on the pill.... i'm on the pill and have not had this high of a sex drive in years. (maybe TMI.)







so ~ hormones effect all women differently. (i'm also not going to deny that there is a huge pyschological component as well...)

and about the actual rates / %'s for the side effects ~ i'm not sure about any of you but i have had zero success finding any sources for these.


----------



## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
thank you for the information. do you know what the rates are for the occurrences of those possible side effects? from what i know, they are extremely low, but i'd be interested in any evidence to the contrary you might be able to provide.









There have been plenty of studies done over the years to show that the Pill causes all of these things and more.

What often happens is that a study will be released showing that the Pill causes or increases the chances of breast cancer, for example; then six months later, another study will be released into the media showing that the Pill does not increase a woman's chances of getting breast cancer; the study that shows that the Pill does no harm is usually financed by a pharmaceutical concern.

What you need to do is look at who/what finances each study, how the study is done and with what kind of follow-up is done. Follow the money trail $$$.

Another way to figure out things like this is to ask your older women friends and family members how many women developed breast cancer, for example, before 1960 and how many after 1960...doctors call this "anedotal evidence". I do not believe that the old lie that, "people never talked about those things in those days". I can remember everyone in the media talking about Mamie Eisenhower's hysterectomy in the 1950's.

...the breast cancer rates for the American population has mushroomed since 1960, and statisticians can factor in diet, lifestyle, environmental pollutants, stress, birthrates, breastfeeding habits all they want, but there are many women who develop breast cancer or some other complication from the Pill, and have no family history of breast cancer.

There are many studies that can be done also for each of the complications listed on the package insert for the Pill, but they are simply not done.

Some more anecdotal evidence here....

In my own family, no one in the last seventy years has had gallbladder disease. Yet among my seven younger sisters, three have had their gallbladder removed - all three of them were prescribed the Pill, and they had the problem after only one child.

When my sisters questioned the surgeon who did the gall bladder surgery and the doctor who prescribed the Pill if the Pill could have caused the gall bladder disease, all of the doctors said, "No"., and frankly I do not believe them. Where did the disease come from? We were raised as vegetarians! Why would a drug company not do a study to figure out how something like this happens? Because they do not care.

I have never been on the Pill and I have four children and, so far, have no gall bladder disease. (crossed fingers)

You could research further back, into the 1920's and 1930's when doctors were doing the research to synthesize hormones. Diethylstilbestrol was developed from this research, and even in 1938, doctors knew if they developed a hormone that can be taken by mouth, it would be very potent to survive the digestive tract, and that is just what happened with diethylstilbestrol; this artificial hormone was so potent that it crossed the placental barrier, which many doctors naively thought was a "bloody sieve" and caused congenital malformations in the second generation and now is believed to cause third generation problems; it was used as an anti-miscarriage pill from 1945 until 1971 even though there never was any solid scientific evidence that it did this. Diethylstilbestrol was also put into cattle to fatten them up for the market until 1979 so everyone has had the benefit of this hormone.

It was from this research that the Pill was developed.

I know there are many studies out there.

There was a book entitled First, Do No HaRm, about a young woman who married a medical doctor, went on the Pill, and had several major physical complications only to be told that it was all in her mind. She died of these complications, and her family sued, and wrote the book...I have the book somewhere, and it had a short run...

The truth is out there, just read and learn.


----------



## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I was on the pill once in my life only because it was prescribed to rid me of an ovarian cyst. It did work, the cyst went away. I had no side effects, (lucky me). Can't say if there was any sexual side effects as I wasn't sexually active during that time. I was 19 and didn't know or care much about anything but that cyst going away and didn't question the method used. Thankfully it did work without any harmful effect (that I know of). I used the pill (ironically) right up until my wedding day (prescription amount recommended had passed). So, I guess you could say I would of had sexual side effects if there were any seeing as it was probably still in my system but didn't notice any.

I vaguely remember using it longer than originally planned (as in, after the cyst was gone I filled the rest of the prescription anyway) only because it made my cycles so much better. (I had extremely painful ones that had me in bed for at least a day). Thankfully now a little older and little wiser I have found more natural ways of making those better. Turns out alot of the cycle pain was from the cyst in the first place.

Well, gee. Didn't mean to write that much on something so simple but there's my story!


----------



## eksmom (Jun 29, 2004)

As a former Pill user (used it for about 3 years), I can't tell you how happy I am to be off the Pill. I went off in Dec 2002, had my dd in Sept 2003 and haven't used any hormonal methods since then. I guess I am one of those "freaky" women who likes being a woman - I really enjoy noting all of the physical/emotional/libido changes that I go through as a result of my natural cycle. I never felt right about messing with Mother Nature. I have way more sex drive than I used to but the best part is that I experience a normal range of emotions now - highs as well as lows, and I have a lot of moments of sheer contentment that I never had before.







I think the Pill was suppressing my emotions and pushing them towards the negative end of the spectrum. It would take something monumental for me to ever use hormonal BC again.

I was on Depo instead of the Pill for about a year, and boy don't even get me started on how bad that stuff is. It messed with me so badly - zero sex drive, dryness (sorry TMI), irritability, depression, you name it. I was a b!$ch on wheels while I took the shot. As much as it affected me, I was scared it had also ruined my fertility, so I was quite thankful when I got pg the first cycle off the Pill.


----------



## jplain (Aug 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
In my own family, no one in the last seventy years has had gallbladder disease. Yet among my seven younger sisters, three have had their gallbladder removed - all three of them were prescribed the Pill, and they had the problem after only one child.

When my sisters questioned the surgeon who did the gall bladder surgery and the doctor who prescribed the Pill if the Pill could have caused the gall bladder disease, all of the doctors said, "No"., and frankly I do not believe them.

Actually, the Pill used to cause gall bladder problems frequently, and any surgeon who has been around long enough would know that.

The lower-dose pills most women are on now are much less likely to cause gall bladder problems, but it sounds like genetics might be a factor for some women.

A friend of mine was told that her severe digestive problems attributed to her gall bladder (which was then removed) resulted from long-term Pill usage. Her surgeon said the reason none her other doctors made the connection was that they were all too young to have known about the link!

Carolyn


----------



## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

hmm, this thread is very interesting. I unfortunately don't have much choice in dr's in my area. I have finally found one I like who is male- he gave me my first pap that didn;t hurt.

that is interesting about abc and the gall bladder I have 2 relatives that both had to have their gb removed both when teir 1st children where about 1- both have been on bc for an extended time 10+ years

dr's do not like to tell you the side effects of bc. I was on depo for 3 yrs, and pill for 1- I was depessed, continual infections, no sex drive, extreme weight gain- like a pp I was pretty much told that it was in my head-finally after I gave up bc my NP mentioned how awful she thought depo was- yet they didn't think it was imp to tell me while I was on it.

sorry for typing nak'ng


----------



## PapayaVagina (May 11, 2002)

Quote:

has anyone ever read the obgyn.net forums? the professional forums? if anyone ever wants to know what OBs really think, they should go there.
Oh boy, just when I was starting to forget about those nasty forums. Ugh. I used to go there and read those and the post I remember the most was about a woman who had refused a vacuum extraction. The doctor was on there telling the story and the very end of it said "Who does she think she is?" Yeah.


----------

