# Free Play Daycare Issues



## Minaret (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi,
Sorry this is so long, but important. Lately I've been freaking out about our daycare situation and is DH.
We both work full time and can't afford to stay home with the kids. I have a 3.5 yr old DS and a 12 month old DD. When it was only my son, we took him to our neighbors until he was 2, but he didn't have a varied and active experience there, but it was cheaper and more affordable.

Then I came across a very laid back, 70's style free play daycare that was almost like a second family to us. Even though at the time they only took children 2 and up, they agreed and were excited to take in my daughter (who might have potential learning disabilities down the road because she has a genetic abnormality called triple x). So far, she seems to be developing normally and is very happy at this daycare, so is my DS. They have indoor wooden slides, indoor swings attached to the ceiling, rock climbing wall, a sort of tree house type structure inside that the kids can play in, and they are into all natural toys and ways of life--no plastics, just metal and wood.
However, with that comes their rather ecentric personalities. My DS has been going there for over a year now full time, and its very expensive ($6 an hr).
My DD started going there not soon after she was born.

Lately he seems to have a lot of accidents there, and since its not your usual daycare, it comes with more risks. However, the daycare folks (an extended family of three) believe in the free play concept, as I do and they also have a really neat backyard with all kind of different playscapes (including a zip line, rock gardens), etc.
They don't really believe that the kids have to be watched while they are in the backyard; that they are fine on their own, and there have now been enough small "near misses" and minor accidents with the kids that I think there will be a major accident there someday and I don't want it to be my kid.

The other daycares in town I just cringe at (learning ABC's when they are 2), and this place is very loving gentle discipline, Attachment parenting, everything I practice and they are like a close family.

My DS fell from a high place and hit his forehead on a very sharp trim that they had around a diaper changing area. It definitely doesn't have the "padded" walls of a main stream daycare, and my son had an indentation on his forehead for weeks. Also, one day they took my daughter in their car without my permission, in her car seat without the base. Another time, I was quite sure one of them was smoking pot while having a bath with my DD (I'm okay with the baths--my DD loves them and I'm ok with them giving her one) but not while smoking and potentially falling asleep and having a drowning.
Also kids have escaped the enclosed fenced area several times and there is a street nearby where cars go at least 35 mph. I love this daycare, but I think they are being too casual about the free play and the "watching." That's what I pay them for. I understand that accidents can happen anywhere, but..

My DH was very upset over another injury to my DS's lip the other night, but then when it comes time to going somewhere else or possibly confronting the issue, he backs down and says that maybe we are over-reacting and being over protective. I'm sure that many parents are ok with their kids playing in the backyard alone--but its the parents watching them in a backyard they know, not someone you are paying to watch your kids.

I'm pretty much settled on going somewhere else, except I'm not looking forward to the "ABC" daycares (we don't have an option to work at night or at home, etc). It's going to be hurtful to sever the ties. In the past, when I had a concern, they would remedy my concern for a day or two, and then it would go back to the way it was (rug over the sharp trim for two days and then back to the way it was). Sometimes they don't seem all there--if you know what I mean--either. I know I will follow my gut.

Have you had any similar experiences, and would you get your kids out of this situation immediately, or finish out the month and then go somewhere else? What to do? Does this sound dangerous or am I being paranoid?
I won't be able to answer responses until Monday. thanks for your help

Minaret


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## liberal_chick (May 22, 2005)

I'm one of the most laid back parents you'll ever meet and I do not think you are overreacting. I totally understand accidents happening in care (I work in the baby room of a MDO program and we have bumps all the time), but the escaping and pot smoking are WAY over the line.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I would absolutely lose it if someone transported my baby without a properly installed carseat. Just reading about it, I am having trouble not hitting the ceiling. I would get them out immediately.

The pot smoking while bathing with the child would get me too. I'd have personally wanted to start a CPS investigation over that issue.

I am not a fan of daycare curricula (because seriously? there's not that much rush to learn the alphabet), but I shrug and accept the academic aspects of my kids' daycare because the kids are safe and happy there. I think academics for little kids are dumb, but twenty minutes of academics in a day otherwise composed of age appropriate activities will not cause a child harm. And my son's imaginary flashcard game is a hoot and a half.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Alphabets don't kill children. Street access, stoned care providers with, by the rest of the description, plausibly badly supervised children in open water, and improper car seat use all do. Honestly I'm not seeing anything but a no brainer here.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I agree with MeepyCat - this is way over the line, beyond "easy going" and into the realm of negligent. Your child will not end up in the hospital with a serious injury from learning the ABCs for a fe wminutes per day. I would have pulled out a long time ago - they clearly do not take safety (or you) seriously, even after you have expressed concerns. Cool playscapes would just not be enough to make up for the lack of safety and negilgent attitude.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

You know, I bet if you looked around, you could find a family daycare provider who is gentle and has age-appropriate unstructured playtimes with age-appropriate supervision while not sitting the children in rows to memorize the alphabet or whatever you're afraid the centers will do.

We had a lovely family daycare when my kids were younger. The DCP was great, had a lot of outdoor time. She might not have been groovy-crunchy, but she had the right stuff where it counted - dealing with the children gently, feeding them healthy food, getting them outside daily, reading to them, holding and carrying the babies all day if that's what the baby needed.

I think I would be very, very uncomfortable with the situation you describe.

My kids moved from the smaller family daycare to a center-based preschool when they were old enough. Not all centers/preschools are academic and drilling the kids; ours specifically said 'The Kindergarten teachers in town dont' want us spending time teaching them academics." The kids played outside for a minimum of an hour in both morning and afternoon -- more if the weather was nice. The playground may have had a few plastic Little Tykes toys - but it had a castle and bridge built out of the stumps of two trees lost to a storm. The teachers were wise and experienced and had a solid grip of what was normal and appropriate for children of the ages of the class, and the lead teacher in each room had been there for 10+ years.

Look and keep looking. You can find a place where your child is safe. It's important to let a 3yo explore the world, but it also important to help that exploration be safe.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

That makes me think of that school in Auntie Mame where they are all running around naked









I would go all kinds of angry on a daycare that didn't have my child's carseat installed correctly.

I would be ok with a provider giving my child a bath but I would NOT be cool with a non-family member taking a bath with my child. Not.At.All.

It does sound like a lot of fun but there is a line between completely free and a complete lack of responsibility. I would be cool with free play, but an adult needs to be watching.

If you don't trust them to respect your concerns then I would just pull my kids out. That might be hard but that situation sounds way too scary for me.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Most infant car seats can be installed without the base (I can only think of one that does not) so that wouldn't freak me out. The pot smoking? I can see how that could bother somebody, but it wouldn't freak me out.

What does freak me out is that you as a parent are obviously not comfortable with the situation, and that would make me switch providers.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 

I would go all kinds of angry on a daycare that didn't have my child's carseat installed correctly.

I would be ok with a provider giving my child a bath but I would NOT be cool with a non-family member taking a bath with my child. Not.At.All.

It does sound like a lot of fun but there is a line between completely free and a complete lack of responsibility. I would be cool with free play, but an adult needs to be watching.

If you don't trust them to respect your concerns then I would just pull my kids out. That might be hard but that situation sounds way too scary for me.

So not OK! I can't believe you have willingly left your child there. I, too would have called CPS a long time ago. Honestly, I am stunned. April fools?


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

Escaping near a busy street would be a major problem for me and someone unsafely and without permission transporting my child in a car would be an immediate deal breaker.

As previous posters have said, the ABC's at age 2 can't cause serious bodily harm/death.


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm positive you could find an in-home provider for the same $$ or less who would be more like a babysitter rather than a "day care". More customized care, less worries!


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

ok to summarize, your kids are at a daycare where the providers definitely are not up to code on basic safety stuff (and having worked at many daycares, I am the FIRST to admit that some of the regulations are ridiculous, but some things like sharp edges and supervision around water are just common sense). In addition they take baths WITH your child and may or may not be smoking weed while they are supposed to be supervising the kids?

I cannot imagine any normal daycare situation where the provider would have reason to bathe with a child, or where it would be appropriate. Even when I did home daycare and needed to bathe my own ds, imo with other children there that was not the time or place to hop in with him. I would probably have pulled my child out that day.

Is this place licensed? registered? Do other kids go there? I'm assuming there are other children and a number of caregivers if they can afford to maintain a place with all that great play equipment. I just can't fathom a scenario like this.

Oh and yes, I would pull my child out ASAP. It actually raises red flags because lots fo pedophiles have really cool over the top child friendly stuff to lure their victims. Not saying these people are pedophiles but that's sort of what it reminds me of....like the single guy with all the video games who lets all the tween boys hang out and play games in his house after school.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

Alphabets don't kill children. Street access, stoned care providers with, by the rest of the description, plausibly badly supervised children in open water, and improper car seat use all do. Honestly I'm not seeing anything but a no brainer here.
A great big huge
















I would have my kid out of that daycare so fast my shoes would leave skid marks and I would look into filing a police report.


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## jlutgendorf (Aug 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minaret* 
Another time, I was quite sure one of them was smoking pot *while having a bath with my DD* (I'm okay with the baths--my DD loves them and I'm ok with them giving her one) but not while smoking and potentially falling asleep and having a drowning.

OP, can you clarify? Was the daycare provider, naked, in the bathtub, with one of your kids?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Your son received a blow to the head so strong that it left an indentation for weeks. (yes, I know it was a fall, but that's one heck of a blow.)

They drove with your daughter's carseat improperly installed.

They smoke pot while watching children.

They have let children get out of their sight long enough to be wandering on a busy street.

And you pay well over $900 a month for this privilege?

If you really can't stand the other centers, find a nice in home daycare. Zip line or no, lack of varied experiences are unlikely to cause death or dismemberment. I'd even go with a more academic place.


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

You need new daycare.... ON MONDAY. End of discussion.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

At my daycare they play outside for hours on fun little bikes, great slides, lots of little play houses, and even a balance beam. There is sidewalk chalk, and outdoor paint, and even little cars to pedal around on. There are at least three teachers watching my son who aren't stoned.

I also would never be comfortable with anyone besides us giving my son at bath at this age. And IN the bath with him? Hopefully that is just a misunderstanding from what you wrote on my part.

So what if they spend 20 minutes a day trying to teach my kid his colors (its working by the way)?


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

You report that your kids are in obvious mortal danger. Why is this even a question?


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

Mama! It's so hard finding a great place for your children! I can see how you thought you had found a great option! However, this is not a remotely safe situation. I do think that with enough looking, you can probably find something that is a balance between the free for all your kids seem to be in now and the rigid teaching ABC's at age 2. Although the ABC's won't kill, I wouldn't use that kind of center either! Have you tried looking at an advertising board at a local health food store, co-op, etc.? Do you have a local child care referral agency? Word of mouth from other parents? Try looking at NAEYC accredited centers in your area, post on Finding your Tribes here at MDC, University run and affiliated centers often are very geared around (safe) play based programming, maybe even an add on Craigslist explaining what you are trying to find?

Finding safe care is your first priority, but once your kids are safe, do report this place to the State! Perhaps finding the BEST place can wait? And they can go to one of those ABC's at age 2 places, or a trusted SAHM friend who could bridge the gap and earn some extra cash? Best of luck mama!


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## texaspeach (Jun 19, 2005)




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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Alphabets don't kill children. Street access, stoned care providers with, by the rest of the description, plausibly badly supervised children in open water, and improper car seat use all do. Honestly I'm not seeing anything but a no brainer here.

um, yeah. yikes!


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## Princess ConsuelaB (Apr 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Alphabets don't kill children. Street access, stoned care providers with, by the rest of the description, plausibly badly supervised children in open water, and improper car seat use all do. Honestly I'm not seeing anything but a no brainer here.

Um...







WTH is this even a question?


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## yokosmile (Apr 22, 2007)

So the day care worker was burning down while she was in the tub with your kid? Wow. Now that's what I call radical.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I have never heard of a daycare center where kids and adults get naked together. That in itself would be enough to have me pull my kid out immediately. I really doubt that the things they are doing follow the city codes. I think you should go with a more regulated place. Has this place even passed their health and safety inspection and been licensed? I really don't think that they are following the state or local child care standards/codes.


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## bnhmama (Nov 28, 2006)

Holy moly! I've worked in daycare and preschool for well over a decade now and this description curls my toes. I have to agree, why on earth is this even a question? Mama, do not take your children back there. This is not okay, this is not okay, THIS IS NOT OKAY. I can't say that enough. Getting NAKED with your child?! Smoking pot while in charge of your CHILDREN? Children able to access a busy street and with no outdoor supervision? Mama, they are playing you and your children are paying the price.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

There are so many things wrong with the description of this place I have to wonder if it's a joke. Seriously, pot and taking baths with your child????? Come on mama!!! I'd be in jail if some adult other than DH or I took a bath with my kid!


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minaret* 
\Also, one day they took my daughter in their car without my permission, in her car seat without the base.

Another time, I was quite sure one of them was smoking pot while having a bath with my DD

Also kids have escaped the enclosed fenced area several times and there is a street nearby where cars go at least 35 mph

I surely hope that tomorrow morning you are not taking your children back here. This is nuts, mama.

Listen- I work in a daycare. Yes, we have "academics", starting in the 1 year old room. But what exactly does that mean? For us it means that every week we have a new "lesson". We just finished the alphabet (different letter every week) and are now working on spring themed ones. Each day have a different project for the children to do, different books to read that fall under the theme of the week, etc. Do we force any of the kids (at any age) to sit still and drill facts into them? Not a chance! Even in our oldest room (which is mostly kids who will be going to Kindergarten in the fall) we don't do that. We offer the information, we make it fun (in our bug week we do lots of fun things revolving around bugs, for instance). It's not work or anything like that! Even if the child doesn't want to do the project, it's never forced (but I almost never have a child who doesn't want to do it, since they are FUN!).

I would chose an "academic daycare" where I felt my children were safe over the situation you described in an instant.


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## Minaret (Jan 26, 2007)

Okay, I just spent one hour sending an update, and now it won't let me post! ACK!

I've decided to continue at this daycare--am I crazy? There are some explanations, but since my long response didn't post and I'm at work at the end of the day, I will have to try again later, probably tomorrow.

I don't know where my post went....

Minaret


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:

I've decided to continue at this daycare--am I crazy?
OK from the OP the things your described I am not going to say your are crazy but I have to wonder at your though process on this one. I honestly dont know how you could sleep at night knowing the danger your child could possibly be in at this "day care" Maybe your explanation later might shed some light on this decision.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

"They don't really believe that the kids have to be watched while they are in the backyard; that they are fine on their own, and there have now been enough small "near misses" and minor accidents with the kids that I think there will be a major accident there someday and I don't want it to be my kid."

Licensing, at least in NY state, would not allow for unsupervised play time, especially outdoors. Children are to be in direct line of sight at all times until school age, where they can be in indirect or momentary out of sight for brief periods. (which to me, means doing head counts every few minutes and checking to see where everybody is)

Had to comment on this and now off to read the other posts.


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## leavemealone (Feb 16, 2005)

I read this post a few days ago but didn't get a chance to respond. I have had two of my three kids in daycare and what you described would make me very uncomfortable. There is no way this "daycare" would meet state requirements. It would be shut down if it were state licensed. The sharp trim that your DS hit his head on, taking your DD in a car without your permission (although using an infant seat without a base may or may not be unsafe), smoking pot (really? Someone would really leave their children with someone who smokes pot while watching the kids? Seriously?), giving the child a bath (uhhh....that's just weird; no that wouldn't be OK with me unless the person watching my children was a relative), kids escaping near the road, and just about every other thing you mentioned.

A traditional daycare may seem like it's not a good fit for you, but it really does seem like a better place for children than where you are at now. Traditional daycare does not mean that strangers ignore the children all day. Of course, there are bad traditional daycares so if you do choose one, research and ask around to other parents. In the end, trust you first gut feeling. I've had two of my three kids in daycare and my first gut mommy feeling has always been the most accurate. My kids have been in a less than stellar daycare and my gut instinct was to remove them and I was proven correct.


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## Minaret (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi, just a quick note before I leave work to explain some stuff--I had a 3 hour talk with the main caregiver at the daycare. Yes, she is very solid about her beliefs, but she did concede that it wasn't good to take DD in the car seat. (I later found out that she tried to put her in the front seat and turn off the airbag and couldn't, so she put her in the back and I hope it was rear facing). However, she will never do that again or be allowed to take her somewhere.

My DD loves baths, absolutely jumps up and down, and since this is like a second home to her, I really trust this lady giving her a bath, naked and all. However, I do not trust her smoking pot while doing so. My DH is now questioning whether I really smelled "pot" but I have a good nose. This is because when I went to see her yesterday, she had incense burning and it was very different that the previous smell. I don't know if this was to cover up something, but I definitely feel I can tell the difference. I don't smoke (I have in the past) and know what it smells like. Besides, I'm fairly certain I saw a joint near the bathtub. What if she totally denies it and says it was incense? I am quite certain they smoke pot in their off time, but this lady is usually not "out of it" and so I was shocked when I thought this was happening. This is the only concern I haven't confronted her about and I'm going to, but I'm afraid with how she will respond. I'm 99% sure.

She agreed to make a higher gate at the front entrance, she still stands by the kids playing "independently" in the backyard with it being fenced in. I realize that this allows the kids to play longer outside, because they don't have someone watching constantly, but it is also risker. A few kids escaped about two years ago, and after that, she put up a better gate, but its still easy for kids to escape the front yard if they wanted to. There is not even a lock on the front door--I guess from the start, you have to be okay with that "kind" of place. It's a small town and a wealthy community, there are lots of Montessori's that are much more expensive. Regarding the escaping, I told her that kids are unpredictable. Just because they haven't escaped before, doesn't mean their behavior won't change. Our DS escaped one night out the front door in his socks in winter--to the neighbors house while DH was putting DD to bed. This was a big shock to us. At the daycare, he gets "privileges" to go outside by himself. Overall, when I look back on it, there haven't been any serious injuries--but is that just luck?

When my DS hit the trim after falling off the slide--apparently this was seen by the caregiver and he hit the mattress at the bottom first and then turned his head and hit the trim. It sure seemed like a good indentation for a slight bump, but...this last time a child whacked him by accident with a small bulb planting trowel, and they said it couldn't have been prevented (I don't believe anyone was outside with them). He came inside bleeding profusely, but in the end it was a small cut that didn't require stitches. My DH went balistic and that's when this whole thing started. Now he's willing to take them back.

This is like an extended family, my kids love it there, and they have helped us in many other areas. (We don't have many friends--its a rather tight community and seems difficult to make new friendships), so we do love and trust these folks for our kids emotional health, but whether they are physically safe is another question... They are not pediphiles, I know that. They do have a license, and they cook all healthy meals for the kids, sing and read to them at bedtime, all kind of good stuff, but is it safe enough that I don't have to worry about them? I don't know--I don't feel completely safe, but then does anyone? I wish I could be with my children and not work full time.
I am going to confront her about the other issues, but I basically told her most of my concerns. She begged me to keep them there and felt that my DD would not get an enriching experience at my neighbor (she only speaks spanish) which would be important with her potential learning disabilities. But I would like to of course have her safe. I took DD to my neighbor this morning and she cried and cried, it was heart breaking.

For now, I've decided to take my DS there. On a side note, he has broken his leg twice in freak accidents--but not at this daycare. One was with my next door neighbor (the one who does not speak english or know CPR/First Aid) and one was on my watch (a freak accident while running in our backyard).
So our DS is accident prone and the caregiver at the daycare said she raised three kids without a broken bone and they turned out fine and good citizens because of this "free play" concept. I think she goes a little overboard on this concept, because she feels like it is the end all if they don't have this type of experience before they go to kindergarten. Actually, they have about 14 other kids, some are teachers who take their kids there, some are homeopathic doctors believe it or not! All of them have really liked the daycare, but also have the same safety concerns as me. No body has pulled their kids out--but a few have gone part-time elsewhere and part time there.
More later. I've got to get home and show the responses from Mothering Mamas to my DH. Last week, I knew in my gut that I didn't want to take them there--but then I have such a hard time making changes, even when it feels unsafe. I went Friday to another daycare that was really great and has the more learning type of schedule, and all of these kids where so mellow. They weren't running amok like my kid. His behavior was really embarrassing. It always seems like other kids are better behaved, maybe because they have more structure in their daycare. I just don't know what to do.

Minaret


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I dunno, even with your update, I'm pretty dang sure I'd be finding someone else to watch the kids.

A commercial daycare center actually sounds a lot more appealing than this 'free love' place.


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## yokosmile (Apr 22, 2007)

These day care workers have it easy. Just smoking weed and letting the kids run around outside by themselves and tossing them in a car (probably for a Taco Bell run in all honesty) w/o having to bother with strapping them into a carseat.

Now I am beginning to wonder if all of my stoner friends are running a day care center and not telling me about, lol.


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## yokosmile (Apr 22, 2007)

But it all seriousness, this situation sounds really dangerous. And it's not even the smoking - go outside and light up and come back, no big deal. Plenty of people can smoke and take care of children just fine (some of the angry mothers I've seen NEED to, I think). But one has to be responsible. And letting small children play outside unsupervised and allowing small children in cars without the proper restraints is not responsible.

I am sorry you can't stay home with your kids. Every mother should have that right and it's utter shite that you don't! I hope you can find a laid back center that's also safe.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I have a daycare in my home. It's not as fun as yours, and I wish it was.

I have worn out the books by Bev Bos And, I love her concepts.

I let the daycare kids go outside without me.

I let them do things and climb things and jump off of things that most daycare providers won't.

Kids fall and get hurt. You can't pad everything. Kids need to learn to navagate the world eventually.

But, MOST of what you are saying is more than scary to me. I don't care if most people think that pot should be legal. It's not legal. Adults just can't risk breaking a law when they are taking care of children. It's irresponsible to say the least. I have no respect for anybody who breaks the law (even if they disagree with that law) and even less respect for someone who breaks the law when they are in charge of children.
_*I know you said you THINK, you don't have proof... but, if it's true, that shows a huge lack of common sense_.

Taking an infant in a car without the proper base would really upset me. Unless it's an emergency, there can't be a good reason for that.

When you say "getting out of the gate" Do you mean getting off the property? I am all for giving kids freedom, but if they can leave the property, That is a freedom they would never have. I let my kids outside, but it's a seven foot block wall, and there is no way they could get out of the daycare playyard.

I think I'd be willing to let the accidents slide. Bumps and bruises are part of being a kid. But, smoking pot, and being able to get off the property would be deal breakers for me.

Otherwise, it sounds like an awesome place!!! I'd give anything to have a daycare just like that.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Sorry Minaret, keeping your kids at this place does sound crazy to me.


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## yokosmile (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I have no respect for anybody who breaks the law (even if they disagree with that law)

So you must think Harriet Tubman was just awful hey?


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

There is no way I would leave my young child anywhere where they were unsupervised and could escape. The potential for serious injury and getting lost is much much to high for me. Plus if CPS found out you knowingly sent your child to a place where they engaged in illegal activities (pot smoking) couldn't that be very very bad?


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## Minxie (Apr 15, 2008)

I am probably one of the most laid-back parents around and I wouldn't leave my DS at that place from your description.

Young children need to be supervised. Yeah, okay, in your own yard I could see letting DS be outside by himself or with friends but my DS is four and even in our own yard, I still check on him every few minutes. You mentioned they felt the "kids" could be outside unsupervised; does that include your 12 mth old DD who is probably tasting just about anything she can put in her mouth right now, thereby risking a potential choking?

Incidentally, NO WAY would ANYBODY be smoking dope and bathing my kid. Pot slows your reaction times (not to mention being illegal); what if your DD slipped under the water? Are you really willing to gamble with her life because that is what you are doing by keeping her there?


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

So these people think it's good for kids to play freely, right? I agree with that. But how exactly does it benefit the kids to play freely, _with nobody watching them_? Wouldn't they be just as happy playing freely, with an adult or two watching on the sidelines? Sounds to me like the care providers' not watching them is because they're too lazy, not because it benefits the children.

And OP, please read your own words: "...we do love and trust these folks for our kids emotional health, but whether they are physically safe is another question..." What is more important than your kids safety?? As long as they're having fun, it's okay if they're seriously injured, lost, hit by a car??

I really hope you reconsider sending your kids there. At least try to look around for another place with a philosophy similar to yours.


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## LaurenAnanas (Feb 26, 2008)

I've been following this thread from the beginning and I have to agree that you do seem crazy.

It sounds like your day care provider is trying to guilt you into keeping your kids there because she knows no one else will fill your spot and she'll lose her income.

She may be "like a member of the family," but I have a whole slew of actual family members that I would not trust to watch my kids.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Honestly, "crazy" seems fairly mild for paying for the privilege to have your kids unsupervised and getting naked with non-family-members who are using illegal drugs.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
getting naked with non-family-members who are using illegal drugs.

Getting naked? I missed that part. The provider was actually TAKING a bath too????


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

my vote is: explanation was not good enough. please find another day care situation.

also? don't let anyone question what you saw/smelled regarding the situation. your memory was strongest right after the event the more you question it the more you will begin to doubt it.

if you smelled it then you know. it is VERY distinctive and there is NO WAY that you could mistake incense for pot. you know this.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Wow. just wow.

First of all. Yes, it is an issue that your neighbor doesn't know CPR/First Aid, but they do offer certification classes in Spanish, in most places. And it's not rocket science; I'm sure she could learn even from an English book, with some effort. I really don't understand what her only speaking Spanish has to do with anything. Bilingualism has been proven to give children many advantages, including children with developmental differences. Plus, if she is actually watching the children, the likelihood of her NEEDING to use CPR is a lot lower than in this free-play place.

Secondly, I am pretty "free-range" with my own kid. He plays outside by himself with the neighbor kids. I do not sit and watch him every minute in the bath. When we go to the playground I don't hover. Even if there is a scuffle/fight I let him defend himself rather than jumping in. We don't freak out about minor accidents/bumps/bruises here (and he gets his fair share, lol). So I truly do get the idea of not being a "helicopter" type of caregiver.

However, I cannot think of any situation where there are FOURTEEN children in care and one of the providers has the time to get naked and get in the tub with one of the children. even if there is truly nothing inappropriate going on, do they have any idea the s*** that would hit the fan if licensing happened to visit? I don't know ANY licensed providers who would take that kind fo chance. I think that is my biggest issue.

No matter how close you all are, during the hours that the daycare is in operation, they need to follow the rules, just like everyone else. I agree that some of the rules are dumb (does it REALLY matter if we don't hang all the posters 6 inches from the ceiling?). But their essential purpose is to prevent situations like this, where the people clearly lack the common sense and discretion to figure out what is okay and what is not.

I am not against smoking weed. I AM against using an illegal substance when you are responsible for children.

I just can't imagine taking my child back to a place that was so obviously lacking in common sense. I get the appeal of the free play thing, but just is not worth it.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

14 kids? I must have missed that part. That is nuts. They couldn't pay ME to watch my kids along with that many other kids. That's not even a legal ratio - licensed or not.

OP, you can still remain in these people's lives as friends, but why on earth you would keep your children there with the info you provided is beyond me. I'm wondering if this is seriously a joke, or something.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I'm wondering if this is seriously a joke, or something.


Me too. I am just finding it hard to believe that someone would knowingly choose this situation for their children.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

Whether you think it is ok for the kids to free range, it is probably against the law when you are providing care.

I am not an extremist but this place needs to be shut down before someone really gets hurt!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Even with your update I still think that you shouldn't have your kids somewhere where that many kids run around unsupervised. I really don't think that this meets legal requirements for supervision of daycare children. You can call your local daycare licensing department to be sure if you care to. I never felt like my dd wasn't safe at her daycare. She attended two free play daycares that also had rules to keep all kids safe and supervision that met NAEYC adult to child ratios and the city guidelines. I think free play without adult interuption is important, but so is safety and having an accident prone child would make me even more set on putting her in a safe place where she would be supervised.

I also have to wonder if this is a joke though. Having kids unsupervised in a center where you don't feel they are safe, people are getting naked with them, and the teachers smoke pot sounds to ridiculous to be true so I truly hope it isn't.


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## Minaret (Jan 26, 2007)

This is no joke, but I know that stories sound exaggerated when you can't see what is happening in person.

I don't mean that they send the kids outside and don't watch them AT ALL.
They just are not "helicopter" caregivers, a term someone used earlier. In summer, the kids are outside almost the whole day, besides eating and napping. Usually one of the three is outside, doing some gardening or rock work or sitting in a chair watching the kids while one is inside cooking or watching kids. However, when a few kids want to go outside alone to play, they will let them, while watching occasionally from the window.

However, the backyard is a really cool playscape with tunnels, a zip line, etc, and you can't see all the kids at once from the window, that's what worries me. They also have a stone water fountain on the back deck of the patio that is only 2-3 inches deep that kids can step into and do water play. I've never seen kids there without being watched. They couldn't drown there unsupervised unless one of them hit their head and fell into the water and nobody came to the rescue. There are always a bunch of kids there playing at the same time. They have a few small trees that the kids climb on their own, and yes--occasionally I worry that my son will fall the wrong way and get hurt, even though it's only a few feet down, but I like the fact that he can climb trees. Many kids don't do that anymore or can't do that because their parents are too protective. I did all those things when I was a kid.

They just began taking babies, my DD was the first, and then they decided to take more infants mixed in with the older kids. Originally they were going to rent another house, but the ratio with infants is different and was too complicated and I don't believe they were able to get a license, but they do have a license for this place, because I've seen it displayed. Many of the older kids who turned 4 have now left and gone to other daycares, much to the dismay of the other caregivers here. I don't know the reason for this, but they have several more young children signed up for the coming summer. The babies would never be unsupervised, they are very clear about that. In fact, they believe in "wearing" them or spending a lot of direct contact with them, one on one. They even asked DH (who had been unemployed for a while and spent time there helping out) if he would want to work full time as an extra caregiver. They were willing to pay him good wages but then still charge each kid while he was there, and it just didn't add up for me. By the end of the month, he would have still come home with hardly nothing. He would have made sure the kids were safe, he is very good about that, and he thought it would have been a good switch from his manual labor job. I make more money in the family and have the health care, so I couldn't have done it.

My DD isn't walking yet and I might switch her to another place when she is walking, but there are not many options for babies until they get to be 18 months, except for my neighbor. This morning I took my DS to my neighbor and my DD to the daycare. I dropped my DS at the neighbor and he cried (he doesn't like it there, prefers the daycare because there is more interaction with kids and he likes his caregivers. My neighbor is ok, too, just boring), and my DD thought she was going there too and started wailing!! When I took her later to the daycare, all the tears stopped, the other caregiver held her, and she didn't even notice me! I even came back because I forgot to drop something off, and she still had not flinched from the lap of the caregiver. She was very happy, that's what makes it so hard. DD has not being going much to the neighbor and I know this is why she cries, it will just take some getting used to.

DD and I take baths all the time together. I relunctantly still do so with my DS, too, but he's getting too big soon and needs to take them on his own. Is that weird for some of you, even within your own family? I'm just trying to get a sense for normalacy here. I do trust the women at this place to take baths, but they only do so with DD, not my DS. No one else has taken a bath with any other kid that I know of, and certainly not a male (there is one male who works there). Some of the kids will take baths together, but my DS is too shy to do so, but he will with us at home. I realize the point of my story is that she was smoking weed the one time, and that was NOT safe. And I did not feel comfortable with that and I still haven't talked with her about it. Besides that one incident, I have not smelled pot on any of them or ever witnessed them doing so while taking care of kids, but I do have the feeling and the knowledge from other people that they do "light up" when their day is done. I think they realize the implications if they were to "light up" while watching kids, and I think this was a mistake. Does it make me wonder if they do it more often after seeing it with my DD? I think I would be able to tell, because I have a nose like a bear. I guess I am making excuses.

I was so adamant last week that I was taking them somewhere else, but I'm having a hard time between the safety issue and the emotional/loving issue, which I think they are very good at. I will update more. For now, my DS goes there and DD goes there one day a week. I hope I don't regret this.

Minaret


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The bath issue is with someone not directly related to the child taking a bath with them. To me that would be like my dc's school teacher taking a bath with the kids it just isnt right any way you look at it. It is a whole different thing when it is family.

You can love someone with your whole heart and still be bad for them. Bottom line your children's safety comes first over everything else.

If children are escaping the yard like you said in the OP then they are not being watched close enough.


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## Tizzy (Mar 16, 2007)

wow. just wow.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

It is not OK and not normal for a child care provider to take baths with your child. Seriously. sometimes I read stories like this and just wonder what your own past is that you would think that is a normal thing.

Why does a grown woman want to be naked with your child? Hello?


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## Asparagus78 (Aug 14, 2009)

For the sake of the children involved, I'm praying this thread is a joke (and I'm not a religious person...)


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minaret* 
This is like an extended family, my kids love it there, and they have helped us in many other areas. (We don't have many friends--its a rather tight community and seems difficult to make new friendships), so we do love and trust these folks for our kids emotional health, but whether they are physically safe is another question... They are not pediphiles, I know that. They do have a license, and they cook all healthy meals for the kids, sing and read to them at bedtime, all kind of good stuff, *but is it safe enough that I don't have to worry about them?* I don't know--I don't feel completely safe, but then does anyone? I wish I could be with my children and not work full time.

NO. It is not. Look, DS's preschool is pretty groovy and free play-ish and all. The director posts here on MDC! They do NOT take baths with the kids, nor let them play outside unsupervised, nor have sharp trim on the slides, nor smoke pot while on the job, nor any of that scary stuff you're talking about. And honestly, while that playscape sounds nice, I think it requires MORE supervision than average, not less.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Your rationale for it being ok that the caregiver gets naked with your daughter does not make any sense. yes, my DS sees me naked when I bathe, but that doesn't mean he should see everyone else naked, and vice versa. There is NO excuse for any child care provider to take a bath with one of the children s/he is watching. No excuse.

Emotional health is essential. Having a loving place to take your kid is essential. However, all the emotional health and love in the world doesn't go too far if a kid escapes out the back fence and gets hit by a car. Or drowns while being unsupervised. Physical safety must take at _least_ the same priority. For me, that's a no-brainer.


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## leavemealone (Feb 16, 2005)

I still think it's strange, but maybe that's b/c I saw Oprah the other day with the Lisa Ling interview of the woman. It's on Oprah's website, but it does mention the sensitive topic of abuse. I am not saying that is the case here, but it does raise a number flags. I would not be comfortable with my children at that childcare center, but that is me.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I can imagine a reasonable caregiver deciding to bathe an infant during the day at daycare. I can't imagine a reasonable caregiver deciding to bathe *with* the baby.

I think you are making excuses. I think that caregivers who really care about the emotional well-being of the children in their care attempt to ensure physically safe circumstances (the fact that no major changes were made after children got out of the backyard would kill the warm fuzzies for me).

And while you say that you've seen their licensing certificate, in your shoes, I would be calling up the state licensing board to check on it. Some state licensing boards have websites, which is handy. Take a look, see the status of their license, when it expires, when it was last renewed, and then give a call and suggest that they send an inspector out that way.

I hope you don't regret this either, but I just can't get my head around the idea that you are sending your kids here every day. I would be way too worried to leave them.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I am less concerned about actual damage from taking a bath with a daycare baby than the very clear evidence that the care providers do not have appropriate boundaries.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I am less concerned about actual damage from taking a bath with a daycare baby than the very clear evidence that the care providers do not have appropriate boundaries.

This!!

Bathing WITH a daycare child??? I didn't realize that when you said bathing. I thought you meant she gave the baby a bath. No... no no. I didn't see where you live, but I can nearly PROMISE you that licensing would be completely flipped out about sharing a tub with a child.

Not to mention smoking a joint while in the tub with a toddler. OH, PAH-LEAZE please, please look for other care. I don't care if the most important doctor in the entire world brings their kids there. I bet they don't know about the baths.

I don't think this is sexual abuse at all. I bet it's innocent. Sexual abuse hasn't even crossed my mind. But, this is a bad idea. They are crossing boundaries and making poor choices while your kids are there.

Maybe nothing will ever happen. Or maybe nothing will ever happen while your kids are there. But, why even take a chance? Why risk having the police come in and arrest them in front if your kids?

I said before, the bumps and bruises are part of childhood. The backyard sound amazing. I don't think kids should be hovered over either. I like that the kids can go in and out without being followed around. I notice that my daycare kids play much more freely when they think I can't see or hear them. They enjoy play more if they think I am inside. But, that doesn't mean I'm not watching them. I'm just not always in sight of them. I can ALWAYS hear them, and usually see them. I assume your provider is doing the same. I love that.

But, pot smoking and bathing are not ever ok. Especially if there are 13 other kids running around the center. One teacher shouldn't be in a bathtub with just one child while the other teachers are left to manage the group.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I just wanted to come back and add something, as someone who was investigated by CPS (and was eventually cleared of all the concerns as being unwarranted and untrue, but not without plenty of headache and stress on me and my child). If you know that the provider is doing this (bathing with your child or any other, willfully ignoring safety hazards, using an illegal substance in the presence of any child) and you ignore it and ANYTHING happens and it is discovered that you knew and kept your mouth shut, it can go very, very badly for you. I am very serious. By your knowledge of the situation and your choice not to report it to licensing (not to mention leaving your kids there), you are implying that you are in agreement with these practices. And the fact that you posted about it here can be used against you as well. Please be careful


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## alfabetsoup (Jun 13, 2005)

SHE SMOKED POT WHILE YOUR BABY WAS IN THE BATH. Your BABY was in the BATH, in the WATER, and she was SMOKING POT. While your baby was in the bath. Pot. Bath. I kind of wish I knew where this daycare was so I could report them and hopefully get them shut down, because they have no idea how to look after children.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

I sincerly doubt this place is licensed. And if they are, should the inspector show up at the wrong time, I am certain they would be closed down







I feel so bad for the kids who are going there, I am sure it is fun, but at what cost?


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sandcastle* 
giving the child a bath (uhhh....that's just weird; no that wouldn't be OK with me unless the person watching my children was a relative)

I think that giving a child a bath WHILE naked and in the bathtub is wrong and I would never allow anyone to do that with my child (heck, nobody but myself and dp ever give ds a bath, except one time when dp's mom did without my permission but she got an earful and won't be doing that again). However, I have given children in my daycare a bath (in the sink) before, and I will again. Unfortunately there are some parents who are less than stellar with their children. There have been a few babies in our care who go weeks without a bath if I/my coworkers don't step in and give them sponge baths







You can't imagine the joy on these babies faces when they finally get clean and aren't itchy anymore.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minaret* 
She begged me to keep them there

That's just.... weird. I'm sorry, but it is. I care very much about the children in my care. Some of the kids have been in my care since I started here, almost 2 1/2 years ago. I love these children. But I would never beg a parent to keep their child here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minaret* 
I went Friday to another daycare that was really great and has the more learning type of schedule, and all of these kids where so mellow. They weren't running amok like my kid. His behavior was really embarrassing. It always seems like other kids are better behaved, maybe because they have more structure in their daycare.

I can tell you from someone on the other side (the daycare worker side) that we can do amazing things with the children for short bursts of time. But once a visitor is gone all bets are off and they have much the same "free play" as you describe.... just a lot more supervised and in a safer environment


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## Rosi G. (Apr 15, 2010)

Please get off the internet and go find your children a new daycare. Or, if you insist on being online, please use the time WISELY to research a new SAFE daycare for your kids.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

You know, OP, I don't think the bathing with the baby thing is that big of a deal. She's only 1, right? Not even 18 months?

I disagree with the pps who said it was pedophilia or boundary crossing. I used to watch a 1 yo and often had her overnight or for even two nights in a row, and I changed and dressed in front of her. She was a baby, I am a woman, I just thought it was no big deal.

HOWEVER, I do think it's inappropriate to be intoxicated or impaired while providing licensed childcare, no matter how you feel about marijuana usage, and I wonder how one care provider found the time to bathe your baby and herself while there are 14 children there.

I get that they are your friends and your kids love them, but that doesn't mean they are taking very good care of them. It sounds really, really dangerous. Your description of the water feature gave me the willies.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

I really feel like this thread can't possibly be real. It's just too wild and out-there for me to wrap my head around.

On the off chance that this thread is in fact real, PLEASE GET YOUR KIDS OUT OF THERE. There are other options. Please. It is NOT a safe place for them!


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## Minaret (Jan 26, 2007)

Ok, some more explanation, because this seems to have gotten out of hand.

I agree with the previous post about bathing. My DD is only 12 months, she has some sensory issues, and because of her disability, has cataracts that need to be removed soon. I didn't want her to slip up in the tub, I would rather have someone with her. And I ASKED if the provider could give her a bath. This bath was also not at the daycare (which some of you will probably think was worse), but at her home behind the daycare. So perhaps that will clear some things up about caregivers running around a daycare naked with a baby in the tub with them. This was not the case. This is the only situation with my child, and she did have permission from me. for some of you that may be creepy, but I've known this person for several years. Also, I did my own "background" checks through a friend of mine on all the people there, before going to this daycare.

I also found out I could have been quite wrong about the illegal substance (long story) but in any case, it wasn't in the daycare where this occured. I have never seen any of the caregivers stoned will taking care of the kids there. They are sometimes very forgetful, and not always as "watchful" as I'd always like them to be, but then I do tend to be a very worrying parent.

I also agree with a previous poster who said that babies were thrilled to be bathed by caregivers because parents didn't bath them for weeks. Sometimes, being busy parents ourselves and working long hours, we have been known to go a week with out giving our kids a bath. The baths were truly a joy for her.

The carseat thing, the kids who have occasionally escaped in the past are the things that scare me the most. We talked extensively about that. I feel we have resolved most of those issues, but I realize that some folks would never go back, some parents I know won't even go back to a daycare after one bad diaper change. I thought I was like that.

But all this doesn't matter now because my DH just got laid off and will be staying home with the kids.

Thanks to all of you for your posts and concern. They will be in safe hands.

Minaret


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Minaret* 

But all this doesn't matter now because my DH just got laid off and will be staying home with the kids.

Thanks to all of you for your posts and concern. They will be in safe hands.

Minaret











Sorry to hear that; I hope everything works out for the best.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)




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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Ugh, I'm sorry your dh got laid off.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
It is not OK and not normal for a child care provider to take baths with your child. Seriously. sometimes I read stories like this and just wonder what your own past is that you would think that is a normal thing.

Why does a grown woman want to be naked with your child? Hello?

Yeah, I'm not a judgy, moralistic person by any stretch--but there's virtually no one that I would be comfortable taking a bath/shower with my daughter. DH. Me. That's it--not even my own mom, really.

And I'm not anti-pot either, but it certainly isn't something I would want my child's daycare provider doing while watching 14 kids. I certainly wouldn't smoke pot while in charge of 14 kids. Think about it--would you have 4 drinks while in charge of kids? I wouldn't.


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

I have a home daycare simaler to what you describe. Only without the pot smoking, unsupervised play and improper carseat usage.

Our yard is unfenced woodland, small rock cliffs, streams, interesting swings, slides, ropes, treeforts, etc. I couldn't imagine NOT supervising - because of all this!

Even with supervision I still get the usual array of skinned knees,elbows, and hands, bonked heads, thrown rocks, swinging (and connecting) sticks, etc....I couldn't even imagine the carnage if I wasn't out there with them.
A few days ago one of my daycare boys was on the swing and another one darted in front of him, anyway swinging boy got an elbow in the nose - which just exploded with blood. It was everywhere, all over the boy, all over me, the ground, the swing. Luckiliy I was only a few paces away and was able to quickly scoop him up and comfort him and clean him up. I shudder to think of this happening if I were indoors somewhere and they were out on their own.

Heck if I want them outdoors but need to make lunch or prep a craft then they're on the enclosed deck - where I can see and hear them.

The carseat thing and the pot smoking really bother me, but the lack of supervision just churns my stomach, I KNOW how much damage/trouble/danger kids can get themselves into even with a sharp eye on them.

I'd pull them. Hopefully you can eventually find a happy medium?


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## WingonWing (Jan 10, 2009)

Well, I read it all, and now I'm REALLY confused. I was under the impression that you and your husband absolutely HAD to work or it would be disastrous. But now your DH has been laid off and it seems like no big deal--now he can stay home with the kids.

I just don't get that--why didn't you guys do that in the first place instead of paying someone else (who you seemed to have concerns about) more than $900/month?


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## MaryJaneLouise (Jul 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WingonWing* 
Well, I read it all, and now I'm REALLY confused. I was under the impression that you and your husband absolutely HAD to work or it would be disastrous. But now your DH has been laid off and it seems like no big deal--now he can stay home with the kids.

I just don't get that--why didn't you guys do that in the first place instead of paying someone else (who you seemed to have concerns about) more than $900/month?

Well, for one thing, people who are laid off general get unemployment, which makes being a SAHP temporarily much more affordable.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Alphabets don't kill children. Street access, stoned care providers with, by the rest of the description, plausibly badly supervised children in open water, and improper car seat use all do. Honestly I'm not seeing anything but a no brainer here.

Uh yeah.... ITA. It's not like the other daycare's are strapping the children to their desks and forcing the abc's. Children love learning and especially learning songs. I haven't read all the replies but I am quite frankly stunned that you would send your LO's back especially after the pot concern. Your dd could have drowned.

There is a huge difference between free play/ ap values and carelessness, lazyness, and lack of supervision.


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