# Painful situation with dh, 4yo dd, and discipline (long)



## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi mamas,

I have been wanting to post about this for a while, but it is so difficult to write about, and I have been putting it off, but I am at my wit's end and really need some advice/ help. I have 2 kids--4 yo dd and 2 yo ds. DD is a wonderful girl, but has always been high maintenance and very sensitive. She is also very athletic, extremely bright, precocious, probably gifted. In particular she is very precocious verbally--she speaks very clearly and has a tremendous vocabulary. She is also and always has been very tall and lean. When she was 2, people easily thought she was 4. She is also very independent, willful, and "spirited." Dh and I have always argued about the best way to handle her. Dh has always expressed a concern that she will be a brat, get herself hurt, manipulate us, etc. if not handled with a firm hand. I always wanted to be more gd, but that just didn't work for me. In order to keep peace (and also because I was worn out) I tried things more dh's way--the year she was 3, I moved away from redirection and natural consequences toward a different style of parenting--punishment/ reward, spanking. DD always responded to that kind of parenting with intense screams and crying--not so much from physical pain, but from what she perceived as the injustice of it. She'd scream things like "you shouldn't doooo that! You shouldn't ever dooooo that!" I was always ambivalent about parenting that way and as she turned 4 and began to calm down a little, I decided I wouldn't do it anymore. We talk a lot about unconditional love, and she is intrigued by the concept and asks lots of questions. She loves to be helpful and asks me again and again to recount true stories that feature her as the hero (for example, recently she and her brother were at the gym daycare, and she took him to potty. She was so proud of herself!). She tells me all the time that she loves me, particularly when I have demonstrated patience, understanding, or unconditional love. For example, when she wet the bed and felt bad about it, I went in and changed the sheets, saying nothing more than, "that's okay. It happens" and continued changing the sheets, she said, "I love you mom." I think she is very sensitive and perceptive to looks of approval or disapproval, etc.

Well, my dh has reached no such understanding with her, and they are at it constantly. Dh has never figured out a way to effectively discipline her, or relate to her, I think. Because I won't allow spanking or threatening, he just does nothing and eventually has an outburst, doing something that I think crosses the line. Some examples:

1. When she was 19 months old and I was very sick and trying to nightwean her, she was crying so much and for so long that eventually dh closed her in a closet.

2. When she was 2 and crying, screaming for a ball and would not take no for an answer, dh finally said "here" and threw the ball at her face, hitting her with it. She screamed and cried in response.

3. Once in a store parking lot, 3.5 year old dd was tantruming because she wanted me to put her in her carseat, not him. She kept screaming "put me down! Put me down!" Dh said "ok" and let go. She fell on the pavement, and screamed and cried, "why did you do that??!!!" Dh says he thought she was going to put her feet down and land standing up.

4. He never actually spanks her, but often threatens her and has made clear to her that he really wants to.

5. Tonight, she opened a can of Coca Cola even though we told her not to. She started sipping it and dh decided to make her drink the whole thing to teach her a lesson. I allowed it because last night we got into this huge argument with him saying I "de-man" him by intervening between him and dd and not letting him discipline her. In this same argument, he had told me that he doesn't want to dislike his own daughter.

And really, I think that's what it comes down to. Because dd can be difficult and disobedient, dh has a hard time hiding dislike for her. I've even had talks with dd about why she disobeys her dad so much. She has told me "Because he gets too frustrated and he doesn't like me." When I asked her what could he do, then, to make her do what he says, she said "He should do what you do." She defined this as "do things with me and watch movies with me and cuddle me."

This is beginning to cause problems for dh and me. I feel as though he acts immaturely and often bullies her. It hurts me and it's unattractive. Yes, dd can be challenging, but she's so fun and smart and loving. She loves to draw--at one point she'd draw about 50 pictures a day, half of them flowers the other half of them pictures of me with "mom" or "I love you" written on them. I wish she felt she could show such love toward her daddy.

Both I and my husband grew up without fathers, so the realm of fatherhood and what that means is largely uncharted territory for us. We both come from a traditional seen-and-not-heard, respect your parents or you'll get your @ss beat kind of culture. The difference is, I was never really spanked, and he was beaten by his mother. He's always pointing to dd's behavior and saying what his mom would have done had he done that. I try to remind him that he is probably remembering being 7 or 8 not 2, 3, or 4.

I want to make clear that dh is not a monster. He has been a wonderful husband to me, and has usually been patient and kind. He doesn't scream--rather he is very lowkey and sometimes comes across as cold or unemotional. Whe he was a child, his mother heaped a lot of responsibility on him I think (leaving him home alone at 8 yo while she worked a nightshift, letting him drive at 10; they never did trick or treat for halloween, trees for christmas, birthday parties, etc.) and he seems rather disconnected from childhood and what that means. He is much better with our 2 yo son who has a more laid-back personality, and seems much more baby-like than dd did at this age, largely because he does not talk much. It just saddens me that he seems willing and able to see the negative in dd much more than the positive.

I don't want things to get anymore out of control than they already are. It's as though she is a different child with him and with me. She has told me that she will never do what dh says because he is mean and rude and big. This is breaking my heart and I don't know what to do





















Thanks for reading this long post. I would appreciate any advice or words of wisdom. Thanks.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I think in all of the examples you gave, your dh behaved completely inappropriately (and I think a lot of otherwise well-meaning and loving parents have at some point reached a breaking point and either been tempted to do things like that that, or let go and did it). But it seems like he knows that and doesn't like the way he feels towards your daughter.







That is so sad. His "discipline" seems like it's coming directly from what he learned as a child.

I think your daughter may be playing on the tension she sees between the two of you, whether it's conscious on her part or not. Your dh probably does see this as validation of his fear that she's becoming manipulative.









Don't wait until you have a situation where you feel you have to intervene again. Sit down with him (away from the children), and hash out a plan to work together. _Physical lashing out needs to go out the window._ But so do the characters of Big Bad Dad and Savior Mommy. Work with him to figure out disciplinary actions that you *can* stand behind him with, and talk about when they need to be applied, and how. After that's completely settled between the two of you, both of you sit down with your daughter about how things are going to be changing and how all three of you are going to work together because she and her dad need to get practice loving and respecting each other. Then both you and your dh need to be committed to live out what you agreed to, him to control his anger and you to stand with him on an agreed upon consequence.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I can relate to a lot of the dynamics in your family. It sounds like, as in our case, your dd and dh are very much alike, and are butting heads because they are so similar--intense, stubborn, persistent, passionate, etc. That isn't so uncommon, I don't think (intense kids come from intense parents!). But, your dh's behaviors, as you've described them here, are _completely unacceptable_.

Does he see that he has crossed a line? Will he admit that after the fact? If so, then maybe some anger management counseling would help. He needs to learn to remove himself from the situation and take a breather before he loses it.

If he does not see that he's crossed a line by closing a toddler in a closet (closing her in her room for a couple minutes while he gets a breather is ok, but the closet is NOT), or by dropping a tantruming child (lowering her and walking away is ok, dropping is NOT), or by hitting a child in the face with a ball (!!!!!), then that is a bigger problem. I wouldn't stay with a man who thought that was ok







.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

saying I "de-man" him by intervening between him and dd and not letting him discipline her.
Except "being a man" isn't about bullying a 4 yr old into drinking an entire can of coke, locking her in a closet (!!!!!!!), and throwing a ball at her face.

I'm sorry Mama but those behaviors are completely never ever acceptable and your DH being "usually" patient and kind simply can not make up for the instances when he is mean and aggressive and physical with your dd.

I would have a sit down now, this very instant and explain that this kind of stuff can't happen ever again. You need to step up and protect your little girl. Have you and your dh considered a parenting class? While there are some scary ones out there, I know my local UU church has a wonderful program for families.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
Work with him to figure out disciplinary actions that you *can* stand behind him with, and talk about when they need to be applied, and how.

This is really important. You can't just say "don't do this". You also have to fill his toolbox with what he _can_ do. He may naturally have a more authoritative parenting approach than you, and that is ok! But he needs the skills to parent authoritatively without losing his temper and reacting abusively.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Yes, figure out discipline techniques that are acceptable to both of you. It sounds like he just doesn't know what to do, so if he gets to the end of his rope, he just does the first thing that comes to his already angry/distraught mind. That's not the way anyone should discipline, he should at least have some tools he can pull out at that time to try. Brainstorm with him when you are both calm and explain to him the things you do already. And you don't have to discipline exactly the same ways either, but you should both be ok with what the other person is doing.

And I do think him making an effort to connect with her one-on-one when they are both in good moods will help their relationship a lot. Does he do this now? I would definitely encourage it and try to set aside a special time for just the two of them with you not around.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks for the responses, especially Cappucino'smom. We have definitely fallen into a pattern of "your way" vs. "my way" but it seems that neither of us are willing to budge. I think it is clear to him that my way of lots and lots of love aand reassurance, spending time together, unconditional love, infrequent punishment and no threatening has been working really well...for me. He does not think it works for him. I think I am just a lot more effusive in my love for dd, and she really responds to that.

I really appreciate the responses (including those that validate my feelings that dh's behavior in the instances I mentioned is completely inappropriate!) but I know how these threads can go sometimes, and I want to make clear that I am not some blind wife and mother allowing my dd to be tormented by an abusive father and doing nothing to save her. I have had many conversations, sit downs, and arguments with my dh over this. And I do think a lot of it has to do with upbringing. He is very into this idea of "teaching her lessons" and I think this is what is so frustrating to me. Dh and I have actually had conversations about how he is more compassionate than I am, in general. It just seems that with dd, he feels that we need to handle her differently because she is more stubborn and intense, When I have pointed out to him that he expects too much of her and would never do/ say things to ds that he did/ said to dd at that age, he responds, "of course not. If children are different with different personalities, it makes sense to parent differently." I even tried to find "middle ground" strategies like 1-2-3 magic. It worked for me, but not for him. She has really decided not to listen to him. She won't even do what he says if it's something she _wants_ to do. I have told him I think he needs to try to connect more with her. I don't think he knows how to do that.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

This sort of thing would bring me to family therapy. I think it's time for some outside perspective. Your dh has some definite bad reactions when he's overly frustrated or overwhelmed, and he needs some new strategies to use. You're also definitely not on the same page, which has got to be hard for everyone involved. So, I'm not recommending therapy because your husband is an evil guy, but because he sounds like a guy who got short changed in his own childhood and needs to do some work to become a better parent.

It also sounds like he's got some real fears for your daughter. You might want to ask him what he's afraid will happen if he doesn't punish dd. Don't try to argue with him about how punishment is 'bad', but listen to what his fears are.

Also, I think given his background, he probably has _no_ idea what's developmentally appropriate. My own father was like this. Because of his own father's illness, my dad was running the family farm at 12. This left him with very few resources to draw on in terms of understanding different paths of development.

Finally, if he'll do reading at all, I'd recommend the following books:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
The Challenging Child by Stanley Greenspan

I think both would give him some insight into his reactions and how to build up a solid relationship with his daughter.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

It sounds to me like crying or screaming really bothers your DH, and he loses his cool and then he just reacts instead of thinking through how he is going to handle it. Does your DH realize what is setting him off?

I think that a really good approach to discipline is to set goals for what you want - for instance, a gentle, honest child who is considerate of others. Then work together to figure out ways to meet that goal.

I also think that since the screaming sets DH off, it would be good to have a very specific approach to yelling - in our house we have a bench that we bring the kids to where they sit - sometimes we hold them while they sit, sometimes we sit across from them on the couch arm, sometimes (if we are having a hard time handling our own frustration) we leave for a minute or two and come back. We wait until they are ready to calm down, and then when they are calm we talk about things. My DD is very sensitive and this seems to work very well with her. My DS is younger and more "spirited", and so far it also seems to be good for him.

I think having a few specific tools you both agree on for how to deal with behavior that is inappropriate would be very helpful.

Tjej


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Oh, mama, that sounds so hard.

DH and I both have had struggles with our feelings of intense rage (and DS is a low-key kid!).

It's helped us both to identify what triggers the rage. It often comes from screaming (for DH) and being patient, patient, patient until all of a sudden I snap. In other words, for me, it's not clearly expressing my emotions, but bottling them up until they explode.

Talking to your DH and listening to him too (about what he's afraid of, and how exactly he thinks his "lessons" will help her) might really ease things.
What sets him off? How does he propose to handle it? Offer some solutions. Offer a "safe word"-- when your DH is feeling overwhelmed with your DD, he says the word and you step in and take over, and he takes a breather.

I also think family counseling is a really good idea.

FWIW, while I don't think the examples you gave of your DH are abuse, they are certainly the sign of an angry, frustrated parent who does not have the tools to cope with these situations, and I can totally relate to him. It takes a lot of time, and work, to overcome behaviors learned in childhood.

Good luck!!!!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
She has really decided not to listen to him. She won't even do what he says if it's something she _wants_ to do. I have told him I think he needs to try to connect more with her. I don't think he knows how to do that.

Do they have time alone together, just the two of them? Maybe there is something really fun she'd like to do that she _only_ does with your dh? (mini golfing, chuck-e-cheese...that kind of thing. My dh and dd used to go to Barnes and Noble and get a snack and play UNO at the Cafe together).

Family counseling is a great idea. We ended up in family counseling for different reasons when dd was 6-7, and it _did_ help us find a "happier medium" in our parenting styles. I tightened up a bit, so that there were fewer of the behaviors that frustrated dh...and dh loosened up a bit, so that dd no longer felt he was always the "No!" person. It's been a good thing for us.

I understand that you are appropriately alarmed by his behavior, but I'm bothered that you didn't stand up for your dd (against your better judgment) when he forced her to drink a can of soda. In retrospect, does he think that was an ok thing to do? Or does he regret it? If he regrets it, would he agree to a "safe word" that you could use as a code for "you are going too far....take a breather and let me tag in"?


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 

I understand that you are appropriately alarmed by his behavior, but I'm bothered that you didn't stand up for your dd (against your better judgment) when he forced her to drink a can of soda. In retrospect, does he think that was an ok thing to do? Or does he regret it? If he regrets it, would he agree to a "safe word" that you could use as a code for "you are going too far....take a breather and let me tag in"?

I hear that you are bothered, and that's fine. But to be completely honest, it's difficult to convey all of the happpenings and dynamics of a particular incident. I allowed the soda-drinking in an attempt to "do things his way" which he says I never do--this is the day after the "de-manning" comment. That is not my parenting style, and I think that's too much, but I have been trying to find a way to give a little bit when I think I can; I am also trying to avoid the constant dynamic of mommy coming in to save the day. He wasn't sitting on her and forcing it down her throat. He was calmly waiting for her to finish it--most of the time, she thought it was a game. And no, he does not think there is anything wrong with his methods. That's why we have a problem, and I am seeking help and advice.

The specific suggestions (counseling, dd and dh doing things together, asking dh what he is afraid will happen) are very helpful. Comments like " I would not stay with a man who..." not so much.

The problem with dd and dh is more than these incidents I mentioned. I think it would go a long way for dh and dd to spend more regular daddy/ daughter time together. Dh has made some attempts here and there but nothing sustained.....I will talk to him about that.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

Also, I think given his background, he probably has _no_ idea what's developmentally appropriate. My own father was like this. Because of his own father's illness, my dad was running the family farm at 12. This left him with very few resources to draw on in terms of understanding different paths of development.

Finally, if he'll do reading at all, I'd recommend the following books:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
The Challenging Child by Stanley Greenspan

I think both would give him some insight into his reactions and how to build up a solid relationship with his daughter.

I think this is true for dh. Thing is, it's hard for him to see it; he sees nothing wrong with his upbringing or the amount of responsibility his mother placed on him. I will look into the books you mentioned. I get frustrated that he will spend time reading junky stuff but not something that could help our family. I believe he thinks there is nothing he can learn from books. Hopefully he feels differently about therapy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 

I think that a really good approach to discipline is to set goals for what you want - for instance, a gentle, honest child who is considerate of others. Then work together to figure out ways to meet that goal.

Tjej

Thank you. That sounds like a great approach.


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## destinybound (Apr 20, 2004)

Hugs to you for dealing with this, we aren't quite there with the intensity of the reactions AND I struggle with my dd as much as dh. Sometimes I think it would be easier if I just did all the disipline so dh and dd could have an all good relationship but then I get tired or sick and the house explodes. Maybe in your situation that would be ok until they are on the mend (daddy daughter dates would be great, one they would BOTH enjoy and developmentally appropriate and early enough when your dd is well fed







.)

Things I have noticed about my dd is that she is tired like half of the day. I am going to try to push her bedtime back to six to get her an extra hour. It is so early but six to seven is always unpleasent anyway.

No real advice as I am struggling myself but thanks for writing, it helps....


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

So after having a long talk with dh in the middle of the night, I really want to proceed with counseling. Even though he says it won't work. He says it's a fundamental difference and it would be just like putting a pro-choice and pro-life person in a room together and expecting a therapist to solve their argument. He's just so stubborn! When I talked to him about his relationship with dd, he thinks I'm just being overly sensitive, and since she's only 4 it is not our responsibility to make sure that she is always happy and always likes us. When I point out to him how some of his "discipline" crosses the line, his reply is "what line? not my line." He thinks we need to employ these tactics with her because she doesn't understand the concept of "do unto others." Is there an irony smilie? And he also says he doesn't want her to end up being totally narcisistic like his mother. I think so much of this is a product of his own sh***y parenting and upbringing! And when I mention that to him, he just calmly makes the point that we are all influenced by our upbringing and it is my upbringing that is making me so sensitive to this. It is so frustrating! Add to it that he is by nature a very calm, controlled, and collected person, with a psychology degree. And for those of you who asked the question does he regret the times he acted inappropriately...the answer is no. He even told me that none of the instances I mentioned (the ball, the dropping, etc.) were him losing his temper. They were all calculated decisions intended to teach her a lesson. I am so, so sad.







I just can't imagine what world he lives in where he thinks this is ok.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Yes, please do pursue counseling. I hope it helps you find some acceptable middle ground. A neutral, professional 3rd party should be able to help define "the line" your dh is not seeing.

Some people will stubbornly defend their actions when they feel ashamed to save face. Could that be what is going on?

It is interesting that he brings up the word narcissistic, because some of his behaviors toward your dd could be described as narcissistic (lack of empathy, for example).

I'm sorry if I offended you earlier in the thread. I am hoping for the best outcome for your and your family


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 









Yes, please do pursue counseling. I hope it helps you find some acceptable middle ground. A neutral, professional 3rd party should be able to help define "the line" your dh is not seeing.

Some people will stubbornly defend their actions when they feel ashamed to save face. Could that be what is going on?

It is interesting that he brings up the word narcissistic, because some of his behaviors toward your dd could be described as narcissistic (lack of empathy, for example).

I'm sorry if I offended you earlier in the thread. I am hoping for the best outcome for your and your family









Thank you, Sunnmama. I am not sure about the saving face thing. He just has a really hard time acknowledging that anything he ever does could be wrong. Relativism works for him. He acts as though I haven't evolved as far as he has because I believe that some things are just wrong. Period. Or that I just get overly sensitive and emotional about things. I swear, it's like being married to a Vulcan. This whole thing just makes me very tired.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

Oh wow, my dh is SO similar to yours! He treats our (older) kids that way, is very emotionally detached from them, refuses to admit mistakes, doesn't know really how to relate to them at ALL. I can see him doing the same kinds of things with them if they were younger - the dropping her onto the pavement sounds JUST like something he would do. I have wondered if he has narcissistic personality disorder many times. And he is totally not remorseful at all.

We have been to counseling and it did absolutely no good because all he did was come away with everything *I* needed to do and didn't hear a thing about himself.

Sorry I can't really offer any advice, but I do feel your pain.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think a counselor would caution him that the incidents you describe are "reportable" to DFS. If your child were in school, and told someone that Daddy locked her in a closet, dropped her on the ground, threw a ballin her face, etc... a report *would* be filed. Whether these actions cross "his line" or not -- there are societal lines that he has clearly crossed. A therapist can spell this out to him, and enforce a minimal degree of accountability.

That said, it seems that the two of you are polarized in your approach to discipline, and he is resorting to nasty passive aggressive actions that are not "spanking" -- but are still punative and painful. I am wondering if some middle of the road approach that you both adhered to consistantly would be best for all involved, including the kids. Maybe love and logic, 1-2-3 Magic, or something of the sort. Even just hashing out a list of consequences that are tolerable to you (if not ideal) that he can resort to.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Oh wow, my dh is SO similar to yours! He treats our (older) kids that way, is very emotionally detached from them, refuses to admit mistakes, doesn't know really how to relate to them at ALL. I can see him doing the same kinds of things with them if they were younger - the dropping her onto the pavement sounds JUST like something he would do. I have wondered if he has narcissistic personality disorder many times. And he is totally not remorseful at all.

We have been to counseling and it did absolutely no good because all he did was come away with everything *I* needed to do and didn't hear a thing about himself.

Sorry I can't really offer any advice, but I do feel your pain.

Thanks, Bedhead. If you don't mind me asking, how are your kids relationships with your dh now? I try to explain to my dh that things are not going to magically get better between them just because time passes and she gets older.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I think a counselor would caution him that the incidents you describe are "reportable" to DFS. If your child were in school, and told someone that Daddy locked her in a closet, dropped her on the ground, threw a ballin her face, etc... a report *would* be filed. Whether these actions cross "his line" or not -- there are societal lines that he has clearly crossed. A therapist can spell this out to him, and enforce a minimal degree of accountability.

That said, it seems that the two of you are polarized in your approach to discipline, and he is resorting to nasty passive aggressive actions that are not "spanking" -- but are still punative and painful. I am wondering if some middle of the road approach that you both adhered to consistantly would be best for all involved, including the kids. Maybe love and logic, 1-2-3 Magic, or something of the sort. Even just hashing out a list of consequences that are tolerable to you (if not ideal) that he can resort to.

The language in your first paragraph is tough and hard to swallow, but I think you are absolutely right, and I have thought about this, so thank you. He actually said to me that the reason these lessons don't work is that my immediate reaction validates her feelings that what he has done is unjust.







Really?????

I mentioned earlier in the thread that we had tried 1-2-3 magic--he claimed it did not work for him, but I don't think he tried hard enough. I know a lot of gd mamas might not be fans of it, but it really helped me remain calm, get out of spanking and get me through that 3 yo year. Mabe I could get dh to try again... This whole thing just makes me so sad


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

oopsie


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I think a counselor would caution him that the incidents you describe are "reportable" to DFS. If your child were in school, and told someone that Daddy locked her in a closet, dropped her on the ground, threw a ballin her face, etc... a report *would* be filed. Whether these actions cross "his line" or not -- there are societal lines that he has clearly crossed. A therapist can spell this out to him, and enforce a minimal degree of accountability.

That said, it seems that the two of you are polarized in your approach to discipline, and he is resorting to nasty passive aggressive actions that are not "spanking" -- but are still punative and painful. I am wondering if some middle of the road approach that you both adhered to consistantly would be best for all involved, including the kids. Maybe love and logic, 1-2-3 Magic, or something of the sort. Even just hashing out a list of consequences that are tolerable to you (if not ideal) that he can resort to.


ITA with this whole post. OP, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this; I agree with mamaduck - I'd clue him in that even if he hasn't crossed "his line", he has crossed a line legally and likely would have an investigation launched on him if your daughter ever told anyone these things he has deliberately decided to do (by his own admission) to "teach her lessons".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
The language in your first paragraph is tough and hard to swallow, but I think you are absolutely right, and I have thought about this, so thank you. He actually said to me that the reason these lessons don't work is that my immediate reaction validates her feelings that what he has done is unjust.







Really?????

I want to be absolutely clear that I in no way endorse or condone what he's done in these instances, but I can agree withthe point that because your ideas and practices are so different right now, your daughter is getting very mixed messages. Not that I would want you to NOT say something after what he's done, I just mean that I agree with the PPs that you need to find a way to communicate with him that you'll find a *middle ground* for discipline.

I would go on these two points with him - that legally he could get himself into trouble if he continues these kinds of things and your daughter ever mentions them to someone, and that you *both* need to give a little to come up with a consistent plan for her so she's not getting really mixed messages - and I think those are things that could be accomplished with a counselor - in fact, that's probably how I'd approacht eh counselor, personally - telling them that you're looking for some help finding compromises - that will disarm any attempt your husband makes at "she wants me to only do it her way", and lets the counselor know you're willing to work and compromise. I'm not meaning that you have to always be a united front, but you have to have a range of things that you agree are OK ways of handling issues. My husband uses more logical consequences than I do, and soemtimes says things to the kids that I woudln't -but he's still well within my comfort zone of not harming them (emotionally or physically). We don't have to be carbon copies, but we do have to agree on the basics.

Good luck.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Having gone through a very bad parenting moment myself this week, I want to say that while I was living it, I totally thought I was in control-- of myself and of the situation. It wasn't until later that I realized my anger and exhaustion were in control, and that being the adult in the situation I should have acted differently.

And, saying that, I think your husband is in denial about the consequences of his behavior and in denial about his control of the situation. He is not acting like an adult.

I wish I had some fabulous advice for you. I really hope that he's wrong about counseling and that it will allow you to work together to find a place where you both feel comfortable. But for that to happen, he *has* to be open to questioning himself and his behavior. It's incredibly painful, but it must be done.

Best of luck to you both.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

I want to be absolutely clear that I in no way endorse or condone what he's done in these instances, but I can agree withthe point that because your ideas and practices are so different right now, your daughter is getting very mixed messages. Not that I would want you to NOT say something after what he's done, I just mean that I agree with the PPs that you need to find a way to communicate with him that you'll find a *middle ground* for discipline.

I know what you mean. There are times when he says or does things that I don't agree with, and I try to talk to him about it out of earshot of the kids; but then when he does something like the ball thing that is so out of bounds IMO, I can't help but react. And I really don't like being in this position. I just feel as though in parenting dd, a side of dh has emerged that I don't understand and really don't like at all







I feel like he has no idea what normal childhood behavior looks like. A four year old isn't going to do what you say just because you say it, although that's the dynamic he's been raised to expect. I've been telling him since dd was 2 that I think he expects too much. Now she is 4 and just blatantly defies him. She has told me that she won't do what he says no matter what.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 

And, saying that, I think your husband is in denial about the consequences of his behavior and in denial about his control of the situation. He is not acting like an adult.

Can you say this again? I ordered Scream-Free Parenting because I read a little bit of it before, and the author seems to do a good job of writing about parental temper tantrums and the need for us to maintain control and be adults. My husband thinks I am suggesting that we only need to work on ourselves to improve dd's behavior. I'm not really suggesting that, but I have to say, since taking the approach that what I really need to work on is my own self-control and expectations, my relationship with dd has changed completely and her behavior is generally quite wonderful


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## mariamadly (Jul 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
My husband thinks I am suggesting that we only need to work on ourselves to improve dd's behavior.


And that would be wrong because . . . ?

Modeling is the only thing that works. If we have a healthy, respectful sense of justice, it'll be reflected in the way we treat our spouse, children, total strangers. Everything flows from it.

OP, forgive the following delve into my own situation; it feels less judgmental than describing your DH in these terms, and I hope some of it is helpful:

My DH and yours sound as though they were separated at birth. Calm, logical, convinced of the correctness of their own viewpoint. And mine behaved that way because of his worldview: that his opinion didn't matter, that he was being dismissed, his needs ignored. He was so convinced of this that everything he observed and experienced fit those assumptions. If your DH has a mother even HE describes as self-absorbed (did he use the N-word?)(narcissistic)(ahem, yes, that's my MIL), then he suffered for it. I'm sorry, but a mom who's the center of the universe is not able to teach her children that they have value. Children of these moms have not been taught that someone else's needs or perspective are worthy of a response or consideration, because theirs never were. Narcissistic parenting is very black-white / either-or / win-lose, and my DH felt like his back was against the wall with everybody. It was his whole world, and he did some horrible but plausibly deniable emotionally abusive things acting out of psychological self-preservation.

You asked about relationships with children. Ours are older teen / young adult. It is never too late to respond to a grievance. They (DCs) have been quite forthright about things they don't like about our lives and behavior, and my husband has bitten the bullet and looked hard at addressing this respectfully. The kids see that their views are incorporated, but change is slow, and DH and I follow up months and years after a hard situation to convey our impression, check in on theirs, and try to make sure we're living and breathing our intent rather than just paying lip service to what hurt or frightened our kids.

He sounds very sad, and it seems to be hurting all of you. I hope the love and pleasure you hold for one another helps you bridge this.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I think you need family therapy NOW. Even if it does not help your familial relationship it will at least wise your dh up to the reality of his behavior. I hope. While I do not feel spanking is a good way to parent I do not think it is necessarily abusive but I do feel that what your dh is doing is abusive. Dropping a child on the concrete, shutting a child in the closet, forced drinking, all of these things can cause physical/severe emotional harm and are not accepted discipline practices the way spanking is. From his attitude I think you really need to do a little prep work for the possibility that you will not be parenting together forever. I would be scared to have my children parented alone by someone who is so clueless and willing to endanger my children. I would want to know that there was a paper trail that would help make a case for supervised visits or at least mandated parenting classes. I understand that he is trying to have their best interests at heart but he is operating on a different plane of existence and will be hard -or maybe impossible- to work with.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

**EDITED: decided better. Not the time, yet. Lots of work to do with DH


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
My husband thinks I am suggesting that we only need to work on ourselves to improve dd's behavior.

It might not be the whole enchilada, but it is a HUGE part of parenting effectively. When we discipline, we model to our dc how to effectively and respectfully set boundaries with others--a very important skill for our dc to learn.

Your dd is the "big sister". They way you speak to and deal with her will impact how she speaks to and deals with her younger brother. I see this with my own two children (ages 8 and 2) all the time. Maybe it would "sink in" if you point out that his discipline is teaching your dd how to treat her brother. How would he feel if she locked her brother in a closet, or threw a ball in his face, or dropped him? I'm sure he'd want her to use words, be patient and compassionate, remove herself if she is losing her temper, etc. Those are all best taught through modeling. It is the old "do what I say, not what I do", and it never works.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MariaMadly* 
And that would be wrong because . . . ?

Modeling is the only thing that works. If we have a healthy, respectful sense of justice, it'll be reflected in the way we treat our spouse, children, total strangers. Everything flows from it.

OP, forgive the following delve into my own situation; it feels less judgmental than describing your DH in these terms, and I hope some of it is helpful:

My DH and yours sound as though they were separated at birth. Calm, logical, convinced of the correctness of their own viewpoint. And mine behaved that way because of his worldview: that his opinion didn't matter, that he was being dismissed, his needs ignored. He was so convinced of this that everything he observed and experienced fit those assumptions. If your DH has a mother even HE describes as self-absorbed (did he use the N-word?)(narcissistic)(ahem, yes, that's my MIL), then he suffered for it. I'm sorry, but a mom who's the center of the universe is not able to teach her children that they have value. Children of these moms have not been taught that someone else's needs or perspective are worthy of a response or consideration, because theirs never were. Narcissistic parenting is very black-white / either-or / win-lose, and my DH felt like his back was against the wall with everybody. It was his whole world, and he did some horrible but plausibly deniable emotionally abusive things acting out of psychological self-preservation.


Sounds like my dh, but he would never agree with such an assessment. Because he is generally even-tempered and able to see and understand multiple perspectives of an issue, he would never think that he is anything but completely well-adjusted and psychologically unscarred. He has said many times in our relationship that he feels he spent his entire childhood parenting his mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
It might not be the whole enchilada, but it is a HUGE part of parenting effectively. When we discipline, we model to our dc how to effectively and respectfully set boundaries with others--a very important skill for our dc to learn.

Your dd is the "big sister". They way you speak to and deal with her will impact how she speaks to and deals with her younger brother. I see this with my own two children (ages 8 and 2) all the time. Maybe it would "sink in" if you point out that his discipline is teaching your dd how to treat her brother. How would he feel if she locked her brother in a closet, or threw a ball in his face, or dropped him? I'm sure he'd want her to use words, be patient and compassionate, remove herself if she is losing her temper, etc. Those are all best taught through modeling. It is the old "do what I say, not what I do", and it never works.

Thank you for this idea. I will definitely try this.

I want to mention again that the horrible and inappropriate examples I cited are a handful of things that have happened over 2.5 years. It's just that these things are hurtful enough that they have made an impact on me as extreme symptoms of a larger problem. There have been plenty of hugs, cuddles, and positive moments between dd and dh. He doesn't yell, and he has never hit her. I do sense things getting worse. Basically, when she disobeys him, he does nothing. But the fact that she has gotten so blatant with her disobedience is what concerns me. She is very vocal in her negative feelings about dh. I think the emotional chasm between them is growing wider; dh somewhat jokingly calls her "your child" (meaning mine, brownmama's). I don't want her to feel that daddy doesn't like her (which she has said), but I don't want my husband to feel as though he doesn't matter as a parent and cannot discipline his own child.


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## BedHead (Mar 8, 2007)

My kids have very little respect for dh at all. They're all quite detached from him, and it's impossible for him to get them to listen to him at all.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I have 2 thoughts...

How much do you suppose your dd is feeding off of you? Are you inadvertantly teaching her to claim "victim status"? Is it possible your words/body language/etc are driving the wedge deeper between them?

This is a fine line, because you don't want to teach your dd to do whatever to get someone to like her, but I believe part of my job as a parent is to teach my children how to be the bigger one, how to rise above, and how to love the unloveable. Understand, I am NOT saying your child has to be the adult here, only that I would do my part to improve their relationship. Here are some things I might try...

1.) I would speak positively of her daddy. I might explain briefly HIS feelings and expectations and where he is coming from. I would explain the love he has for her, and his concerns, dreams, and hopes.

2.) I would try to help her to love him, just as you are loving her. Remind her how it feels to be snubbed and pushed around. Try to show her that she is doing that to him. Her mean refusal to do ANYTHING with him, is a slight, and it's rude. She is learning that if she doesn't like people she can be nasty to them. I would try to gently teach her grace and love.

Again, I am NOT saying that his responses are okay. I am NOT saying that she is the problem. I AM saying that I would use this to HER benefit, and guide her interpretation of her surroundings. I AM saying that I would do all I could to heal their relationship.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm really not at all sure what lesson a 4-year-old might learn from drinking an entire can of Coke. I'm pretty sure my 2-year-old would drink an entire can of Coke if we let him, and I don't think he'd learn anything at all from the experience!


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## clark (Jul 24, 2009)

I'd like to chime in as an adult who was raised by a man that sounds very similar the the men being described in this thread- Psychology degree, became the "man of the house" at a young age, cold, detached , distant (in our case both emotionally and physically), authoritarian when he did decide to disipline.
I do have a few happy memories of my father from my childhood, but many more of his silence, anger, my feelings of fear of him.

My parents eventually divorced. My father continued to make no attempt to be involved in our (his DCs) lives. Now, as an adult, I have no relationship with my father, none what so ever. I'm not angry with him, I don't hate him. Honestly, I don't think much about it, but when I do I feel sad that he couldn't find it in him to be a dad. I do see him from time to time, but it's always at a family gathering and we just talk about superficial things.

I guess my point is encourage your DH to make an effort to get involved with your DD. Because she isn't just going to magically start liking him once she gets older if he has made no effort to form a relationship with her while she was growing up (IMO of course). Is there a hobby he enjoys that they could do together? or a sporting event he likes that he could take her to? Something, anything that they could do fun together?


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## MomOnDaEdge (Nov 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
Hi mamas,

I have been wanting to post about this for a while, but it is so difficult to write about, and I have been putting it off, but I am at my wit's end and really need some advice/ help. I have 2 kids--4 yo dd and 2 yo ds. DD is a wonderful girl, but has always been high maintenance and very sensitive. She is also very athletic, extremely bright, precocious, probably gifted. In particular she is very precocious verbally--she speaks very clearly and has a tremendous vocabulary. She is also and always has been very tall and lean. When she was 2, people easily thought she was 4. She is also very independent, willful, and "spirited." Dh and I have always argued about the best way to handle her. Dh has always expressed a concern that she will be a brat, get herself hurt, manipulate us, etc. if not handled with a firm hand. I always wanted to be more gd, but that just didn't work for me. In order to keep peace (and also because I was worn out) I tried things more dh's way--the year she was 3, I moved away from redirection and natural consequences toward a different style of parenting--punishment/ reward, spanking. DD always responded to that kind of parenting with intense screams and crying--not so much from physical pain, but from what she perceived as the injustice of it. She'd scream things like "you shouldn't doooo that! You shouldn't ever dooooo that!" I was always ambivalent about parenting that way and as she turned 4 and began to calm down a little, I decided I wouldn't do it anymore. We talk a lot about unconditional love, and she is intrigued by the concept and asks lots of questions. She loves to be helpful and asks me again and again to recount true stories that feature her as the hero (for example, recently she and her brother were at the gym daycare, and she took him to potty. She was so proud of herself!). She tells me all the time that she loves me, particularly when I have demonstrated patience, understanding, or unconditional love. For example, when she wet the bed and felt bad about it, I went in and changed the sheets, saying nothing more than, "that's okay. It happens" and continued changing the sheets, she said, "I love you mom." I think she is very sensitive and perceptive to looks of approval or disapproval, etc.

Well, my dh has reached no such understanding with her, and they are at it constantly. Dh has never figured out a way to effectively discipline her, or relate to her, I think. Because I won't allow spanking or threatening, he just does nothing and eventually has an outburst, doing something that I think crosses the line. Some examples:

1. When she was 19 months old and I was very sick and trying to nightwean her, she was crying so much and for so long that eventually dh closed her in a closet.

2. When she was 2 and crying, screaming for a ball and would not take no for an answer, dh finally said "here" and threw the ball at her face, hitting her with it. She screamed and cried in response.

3. Once in a store parking lot, 3.5 year old dd was tantruming because she wanted me to put her in her carseat, not him. She kept screaming "put me down! Put me down!" Dh said "ok" and let go. She fell on the pavement, and screamed and cried, "why did you do that??!!!" Dh says he thought she was going to put her feet down and land standing up.

4. He never actually spanks her, but often threatens her and has made clear to her that he really wants to.

5. Tonight, she opened a can of Coca Cola even though we told her not to. She started sipping it and dh decided to make her drink the whole thing to teach her a lesson. I allowed it because last night we got into this huge argument with him saying I "de-man" him by intervening between him and dd and not letting him discipline her. In this same argument, he had told me that he doesn't want to dislike his own daughter.

And really, I think that's what it comes down to. Because dd can be difficult and disobedient, dh has a hard time hiding dislike for her. I've even had talks with dd about why she disobeys her dad so much. She has told me "Because he gets too frustrated and he doesn't like me." When I asked her what could he do, then, to make her do what he says, she said "He should do what you do." She defined this as "do things with me and watch movies with me and cuddle me."

This is beginning to cause problems for dh and me. I feel as though he acts immaturely and often bullies her. It hurts me and it's unattractive. Yes, dd can be challenging, but she's so fun and smart and loving. She loves to draw--at one point she'd draw about 50 pictures a day, half of them flowers the other half of them pictures of me with "mom" or "I love you" written on them. I wish she felt she could show such love toward her daddy.

Both I and my husband grew up without fathers, so the realm of fatherhood and what that means is largely uncharted territory for us. We both come from a traditional seen-and-not-heard, respect your parents or you'll get your @ss beat kind of culture. The difference is, I was never really spanked, and he was beaten by his mother. He's always pointing to dd's behavior and saying what his mom would have done had he done that. I try to remind him that he is probably remembering being 7 or 8 not 2, 3, or 4.

I want to make clear that dh is not a monster. He has been a wonderful husband to me, and has usually been patient and kind. He doesn't scream--rather he is very lowkey and sometimes comes across as cold or unemotional. Whe he was a child, his mother heaped a lot of responsibility on him I think (leaving him home alone at 8 yo while she worked a nightshift, letting him drive at 10; they never did trick or treat for halloween, trees for christmas, birthday parties, etc.) and he seems rather disconnected from childhood and what that means. He is much better with our 2 yo son who has a more laid-back personality, and seems much more baby-like than dd did at this age, largely because he does not talk much. It just saddens me that he seems willing and able to see the negative in dd much more than the positive.

I don't want things to get anymore out of control than they already are. It's as though she is a different child with him and with me. She has told me that she will never do what dh says because he is mean and rude and big. This is breaking my heart and I don't know what to do





















Thanks for reading this long post. I would appreciate any advice or words of wisdom. Thanks.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *BedHead* 
Oh wow, my dh is SO similar to yours! He treats our (older) kids that way, is very emotionally detached from them, refuses to admit mistakes, doesn't know really how to relate to them at ALL. I can see him doing the same kinds of things with them if they were younger - the dropping her onto the pavement sounds JUST like something he would do. I have wondered if he has narcissistic personality disorder many times. And he is totally not remorseful at all.

We have been to counseling and it did absolutely no good because all he did was come away with everything *I* needed to do and didn't hear a thing about himself.

Sorry I can't really offer any advice, but I do feel your pain.

Please know I'm saying this in the most gentle of ways to both of you and I'm not taking either of you to task; I say this to anyone in a similiar situation.

*This is abuse. Not a "conflict of parenting styles". Abuse plain and simple. In what world is ANY of this behaivor okay once? Once let alone ongoing?*

I'm honestly floored and just about speechless that you live, and let your children live, like this. If either of you want help in your area to get out of this situation please PM me. If anyone in this type of situation needs help, again, PM me. I will do my very best to find you help. NO ONE should have to live like this.

Yeah, it is THAT bad. Please. Reach out. If not to me, to ANYONE in your community who can help. It's THAT BAD.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Now that I have a little more time --

I totally disagree with the people who describe your husband's behavior as abusive, at least as you've described it here. From what you said, it sounds like:

1) He has agreed not to threaten or spank, but those are the only techniques he thinks are effective with your daughter.
2) He therefore now has no discipline techniques to use with her.
3) Because of this, he gets really frustrated, and winds up doing things that you don't like and that don't seem to be helping his relationship with his daughter.
4) Most of these examples happened long ago, and you've both been evolving your parenting style during this time.

There are lots of people who wind up in that kind of boat, and that doesn't make them child abusers. It just makes them less than perfect parents. Aren't we all?

I think your familly could probably benefit from parenting training. Based on everything you've said, I think that both of you might be able to get behind the Jane Nelsen "Positive Discipline" method.

I also think your husband and daughter need to find something to do together away from you, to give them a chance to develop a more positive relationship. It might also be helpful if he did bedtime reading with her in his lap or in bed together, since it sounds like she responds well to physical contact.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

On what planet is shutting a toddler in a closet, throwing a ball in a toddlers face purposefully, and dropping a young child on the concrete not abusive? I think it would be better to have a controlled spanking situation. While CPS does not consider controlled spanking abusive even they would consider the closet and dropping incidents abusive.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Now that I have a little more time --

I totally disagree with the people who describe your husband's behavior as abusive, at least as you've described it here. From what you said, it sounds like:

1) He has agreed not to threaten or spank, but those are the only techniques he thinks are effective with your daughter.
2) He therefore now has no discipline techniques to use with her.
3) Because of this, he gets really frustrated, and winds up doing things that you don't like and that don't seem to be helping his relationship with his daughter.
4) Most of these examples happened long ago, and you've both been evolving your parenting style during this time.

There are lots of people who wind up in that kind of boat, and that doesn't make them child abusers. It just makes them less than perfect parents. Aren't we all?

I agree we're all less than perfect, but as a mandatory reporter in my state, if a child told me that those things happened to her, I'd be legally bound to report it. Most abusive behavior stems from frustration rather than ill intent. It doesn't make it less harmful to the child, nor does it make it less reportable. Sadly, a lot of people with many wonderful qualities end up doing things that are very harmful to children when they are at their wits end with frustration, or simply have no idea what else to do.

There's a line between a less than perfect parent who loses their temper or spanks a bottom, and one who throws a ball in a child's face or intentionally drops them onto pavement. A line between one who leaves a baby to cry in a crib because they need a break and one who locks the baby in a closet. OP, you are in a tough, tough situation, and I hope your husband will agree to counseling.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
There's a line between a less than perfect parent who loses their temper or spanks a bottom, and one who throws a ball in a child's face or intentionally drops them onto pavement. A line between one who leaves a baby to cry in a crib because they need a break and one who locks the baby in a closet. OP, you are in a tough, tough situation, and I hope your husband will agree to counseling.









The point I was trying to make is that we don't know enough about this situation to determine whether he actually crossed the line.

The hardest one is the closet. I can't imagine putting a child in a closet without their consent (my kids sometimes ask for help getting into a good hiding place in a closet when playing hide and seek at grandma's). But I think the circumstances matter. Did he put the kid in the closet for 2 minutes so he could go to the bathroom, or did he leave her there for an hour? Were there other places he could have put her, or was the closet his best option? How big was this closet, anyway? Did he stay and talk to her from the other side of the door, or did he just lock her in there and walk away?

As for the ball, how hard was the ball? Are we talking about a lacrosse ball or a soft plush ball? Did it hurt her, or just surprise her?

In the parking lot, did he honestly believe she'd get her feet under her? I know I was initially surprised when I discovered that if I set my kids down in a parking lot when they are having a fit, they prefer to sit on the ground in a heap rather than stand on their feet.

I'm certainly not trying to say that I think this guy is a candidate for parent of the year. I just think it's sometimes easy on the Internet to jump to conclusions based on incomplete information.

I do think he needs to work to repair his relationship with his daughter. I do think parenting classes would be helpful to both of the parents in this situation (though I would stay away from Love and Logic; I think it would resonate with him in a way that wouldn't improve the situation). I just don't think we have enough information to judge him a child abuser.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

skueppers- I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from but I just can't get how you are framing putting a child in a closet to be a normal thing. Who puts a kid in the closet to go to the bathroom? A small dark place is never an option and I don't follow GD so time outs are OK with me and I took Love & Logic and tried the room-time thing for a while. But a closet? Seriously! That is just not culturally acceptable. Dropping a kid on the concrete because you think they are going to put their legs out? If he had been truly surprised and just hadn't realized that children are not cats but was educated and understood that he had made a mistake...well dumb move but we all have our moments. According to the OP her dh feels justified and generally ok with these ABUSIVE/culturally unacceptable parenting choices. These are reportable offenses not just authoritative parenting. My dh, who is very authoritative and really has no clue about childhood, was horrified that someone would think those things are acceptable. The coke was just stupid, the ball was stupid or abusive depending on the sitch and there is just not justification for the other two. I'm not saying her dh is unredeemable but he needs to realize that his thinking those things are ok is the biggest problem. They may never have the exact same discipline style but they at least need to be operating on acceptable plains. I agree that Love & Logic would be a poor choice since it can be twisted to be very disrespectful but I think most any sane discipline style would be an improvement.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
I have 2 thoughts...

How much do you suppose your dd is feeding off of you? Are you inadvertantly teaching her to claim "victim status"? Is it possible your words/body language/etc are driving the wedge deeper between them?

This is a fine line, because you don't want to teach your dd to do whatever to get someone to like her, but I believe part of my job as a parent is to teach my children how to be the bigger one, how to rise above, and how to love the unloveable. Understand, I am NOT saying your child has to be the adult here, only that I would do my part to improve their relationship. Here are some things I might try...

1.) I would speak positively of her daddy. I might explain briefly HIS feelings and expectations and where he is coming from. I would explain the love he has for her, and his concerns, dreams, and hopes.

2.) I would try to help her to love him, just as you are loving her. Remind her how it feels to be snubbed and pushed around. Try to show her that she is doing that to him. Her mean refusal to do ANYTHING with him, is a slight, and it's rude. She is learning that if she doesn't like people she can be nasty to them. I would try to gently teach her grace and love.

Again, I am NOT saying that his responses are okay. I am NOT saying that she is the problem. I AM saying that I would use this to HER benefit, and guide her interpretation of her surroundings. I AM saying that I would do all I could to heal their relationship.

The post I edited above was similar to this. I also do not in any way condone what the dad did, but if it was my kid I would not be okay, even at 4 yrs old to have them say they wouldn't ever listen to him and would deliberately do the opposite.

IMO, for SURE dad needs to get into some kind of counseling (or read about child development and positive discipline techniques), and mom and dad have to both compromise and come up with some new ways to address situations - but at the same time, I would be gently working with my daughter too to hep her understand that daddy should not have done the things he did, but the whole family needs to work *together* to get to a place where everyone is listening to and respoecting each other - that as he's working on having better responses, she needs to work too. Obviously the adults in the situation need to do *more* work (in fact, the bulk of the work) - but the daughter needs to do her small part, too. When he is respectful to her, she needs to be respectful to him.


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## Luke's mama (Sep 29, 2009)

Brownmama, I am so sorry for you! Those events you described make me feel so sad, for you and your daughter! I really agree with the recommendations for counseling or parenting classes or if you could get him to read a book so he would have more realistic expectations about little children--maybe he is expecting something much more adult from her. Sometimes the Little ones talk so well we think they are reasoning just like us, but they aren't!

just a suggestion--what about scheduled routine activities with the two of them alone? whether daily events like bath and watching tv or a weekly thing where they go out together? maybe if both were expecting it it would keep tensions low and outbursts to a minimum.

Good luck to you! You sound very sensitive and I hope you are able to get through to DH and DD on this.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just1More* 
I have 2 thoughts...

How much do you suppose your dd is feeding off of you? Are you inadvertantly teaching her to claim "victim status"? Is it possible your words/body language/etc are driving the wedge deeper between them?

This is a fine line, because you don't want to teach your dd to do whatever to get someone to like her, but I believe part of my job as a parent is to teach my children how to be the bigger one, how to rise above, and how to love the unloveable. Understand, I am NOT saying your child has to be the adult here, only that I would do my part to improve their relationship. Here are some things I might try...

1.) I would speak positively of her daddy. I might explain briefly HIS feelings and expectations and where he is coming from. I would explain the love he has for her, and his concerns, dreams, and hopes.

2.) I would try to help her to love him, just as you are loving her. Remind her how it feels to be snubbed and pushed around. Try to show her that she is doing that to him. Her mean refusal to do ANYTHING with him, is a slight, and it's rude. She is learning that if she doesn't like people she can be nasty to them. I would try to gently teach her grace and love.

Again, I am NOT saying that his responses are okay. I am NOT saying that she is the problem. I AM saying that I would use this to HER benefit, and guide her interpretation of her surroundings. I AM saying that I would do all I could to heal their relationship.

Yes, yes, yes. I spend a lot of time talking to her about her dad and the things he does to contribute to the family and show his love for us. Absolutely. I think that only goes so far if she and dad are not connecting directly, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
Now that I have a little more time --

I totally disagree with the people who describe your husband's behavior as abusive, at least as you've described it here. From what you said, it sounds like:

1) He has agreed not to threaten or spank, but those are the only techniques he thinks are effective with your daughter.
2) He therefore now has no discipline techniques to use with her.
3) Because of this, he gets really frustrated, and winds up doing things that you don't like and that don't seem to be helping his relationship with his daughter.
4) Most of these examples happened long ago, and you've both been evolving your parenting style during this time.

There are lots of people who wind up in that kind of boat, and that doesn't make them child abusers. It just makes them less than perfect parents. Aren't we all?

I think your familly could probably benefit from parenting training. Based on everything you've said, I think that both of you might be able to get behind the Jane Nelsen "Positive Discipline" method.

I also think your husband and daughter need to find something to do together away from you, to give them a chance to develop a more positive relationship. It might also be helpful if he did bedtime reading with her in his lap or in bed together, since it sounds like she responds well to physical contact.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
The point I was trying to make is that we don't know enough about this situation to determine whether he actually crossed the line.

The hardest one is the closet. I can't imagine putting a child in a closet without their consent (my kids sometimes ask for help getting into a good hiding place in a closet when playing hide and seek at grandma's). But I think the circumstances matter. Did he put the kid in the closet for 2 minutes so he could go to the bathroom, or did he leave her there for an hour? Were there other places he could have put her, or was the closet his best option? How big was this closet, anyway? Did he stay and talk to her from the other side of the door, or did he just lock her in there and walk away?

As for the ball, how hard was the ball? Are we talking about a lacrosse ball or a soft plush ball? Did it hurt her, or just surprise her?

In the parking lot, did he honestly believe she'd get her feet under her? I know I was initially surprised when I discovered that if I set my kids down in a parking lot when they are having a fit, they prefer to sit on the ground in a heap rather than stand on their feet.

I'm certainly not trying to say that I think this guy is a candidate for parent of the year. I just think it's sometimes easy on the Internet to jump to conclusions based on incomplete information.

I do think he needs to work to repair his relationship with his daughter. I do think parenting classes would be helpful to both of the parents in this situation (though I would stay away from Love and Logic; I think it would resonate with him in a way that wouldn't improve the situation). I just don't think we have enough information to judge him a child abuser.

Thank you, Skueppers. It's very hard on a message board to recount incidences striking a balance between trying not to make things sound extreme and trying not to sugarcoat. I think your responses here and the questions you are raising make it clear that you understand that. But keeping that difficulty in mind, I am not going to spend too much time answering the very good questions that you posed. I will just quickly say that the events as I describe them, while inappropriate, are on the more benign end of the spectrum from what one could imagine. I don't want to get caught up in "defending" my husband's actions or trying to explain why this was not abusive--that's a losing game.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Luke's mama* 
Brownmama, I am so sorry for you! Those events you described make me feel so sad, for you and your daughter! I really agree with the recommendations for counseling or parenting classes or if you could get him to read a book so he would have more realistic expectations about little children--maybe he is expecting something much more adult from her. Sometimes the Little ones talk so well we think they are reasoning just like us, but they aren't!

just a suggestion--what about scheduled routine activities with the two of them alone? whether daily events like bath and watching tv or a weekly thing where they go out together? maybe if both were expecting it it would keep tensions low and outbursts to a minimum.

Good luck to you! You sound very sensitive and I hope you are able to get through to DH and DD on this.

Thank you, and yes we are really working on this. For months (years?) I have been trying to get him to take a more active role in bath or bedtime. I think he just doesn't know how to connect with children. But this has been a good day. Dh has been showering dd with love and attention. He has remarked that he already sees a difference in her willingness to listen to him. Right now, they are in the family room coloring pictures of flowers together.


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## Dabble (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
Thank you, and yes we are really working on this. For months (years?) I have been trying to get him to take a more active role in bath or bedtime. I think he just doesn't know how to connect with children. But this has been a good day. Dh has been showering dd with love and attention. He has remarked that he already sees a difference in her willingness to listen to him. Right now, they are in the family room coloring pictures of flowers together.

I'm very pleased to hear a positive update. It sounds very much as though your DD is sensitive and intelligent, and just as thoroughly as she has tuned your DH out, she can welcome him back into her heart if he puts in a little honest effort. I think you guys are on the right track, working to repair their relationship as father and daughter, and the rest may come naturally after that.

If DH can just have some one on one time with her, a special time that they spend together, like a class on the weekends or a time set aside where he can take her out and about, I think he would soon be beaming with pride to discover just how bright and lovable his daughter really is. Seeing her interact with other children and adults, in new settings and situations could really deepen his love for her as he learns her personality, and maybe even sees some of himself in her. I think that part is vital in order to see some repair in this situation.

I also agree with PP's who have mentioned that he could use a parenting toolkit. He sounds like he reaches the end of his rope and is determined that she learns not to disobey, but has no idea how to teach her that lesson. So he gets a little hostile, feeling like he has no alternative. I wish I had the perfect solution for what to put in his toolkit, but I just have the lame-duck advice that he needs something in there.







Sorry. In our house, timeouts are our main form of discipline, and they work well for us, but that's not for everybody. It would be ideal if the two of you could agree on how you will handle real-life discipline issues in regards to both of your kids, so you can present a united front, and feel the encouragement and strength of knowing you have the other parent in your corner.

It's apparent that you are also sensitive to the needs of your family, and I have little doubt that you will be able to resolve this with a little time. You are obviously putting your heart into the resolution. What more could a child ask of her parents?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

brownmama can you find a therapist who has done 'non violent communication'?

i see your dh as a man who loves his dd dearly... and he is afraid that without 'tough love' her adulthood would be ruined. he needs to be heard. he needs to see himself that what he is doing is wrong.

you talking to him usually is a constant point out that he is wrong.

what are his fears?

he sounds v. much like my ex. sees the world in black and white and what he says is right. not anyone else.

its v. hard to talk to someone like him and get him to understand what he is doing is wrong. ex would not drop dd or hit her with a ball, but he does absolutely nothing to emotionally support her. so when she comes over to my place seh needs time to vent - ie. throw tantrums so that she can destress.

personally for me for myself non violent communication (joining a practise group) has really helped because i have learnt to really listen to all the hidden words. just me changing my stance of how to look at him - always the wrong dooer, the bad person - not 'thinking' that way kinda softened my body stance and our fights came down a lot.

it really helped me see both of us as people who really loved dd and who are doing their best to raise dd. however 'doing the best' doesnt mean anything if they are thinking about themselves rather than dd.

dd loves her daddy, but wishes she could have some connection with him, rather than just being his dd who always has to listen and obey him rather than be able to express her true thougths and self.








s i dont know what the answer here is - or how to reach out to your dh so he will listen.


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## momofmine (Jan 8, 2007)

I do not have time to read any of the responses, but I want to reply because when I was reading the original post, I audibly gasped at the examples you gave. Please don't take this as attacking at you, I think you are incredibly brave and loving to come here for support. But those incidents are seriously abuse, and your DH needs anger management and parenting classes. I would not stay for one single more day unless he made huge changes and committed to seek outside help immediately, as in today or tomorrow. Good luck.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Hello Brownmomma,

I have read many of your posts in this thread, and I can relate to some of them.

***My suggestions are ONLY based on your posts, I don't know you or your husband, so please ignore me if I am off-base.****

Could you tell me more about your husband's mother? Does he still have a relationship with her? Was/is she a narcissist?

If so, that will influence your husband for the rest of his life.

Since he has a degree in psychology, does he see his mother as a narcissist AND does he realise what kind of an effect that will have on his own behaviour and empathic abilities?

Listening to your daughter and respecting her person will NOT make her into a narcissist.... in fact, your husband's behaviour in these situations, (at least to me) is indicative of having been raised by a narcissist himself.

Based on your observations, does he "get it" when it comes to the emotional and personal space of your child? Does he realise, on any level that putting her in a closet, forcing her to drink something, dropping her, etc are violations of her person?

In my experience, recognizing that narcissistic parents are _very troubled, dominant, and influential people_ is the biggest first step.

The next is accepting that one _*is influenced*_ by one's narcisisstic parents, and vowing to be vigiliant and guard against it when parenting one's own children.

These two steps are key.

In my experience, children of narcissists have a mechanism that kicks in when faced with strong emotions.... it's like ice-cold autopilot. Robot function. It's there because as children, they needed to retreat into that frame of mind when the N-Parent attempted to wound them emotionally. Any sort of "real" reaction, one that shows empathy, compassion, or vulnerability was fuel for the N-Parent to use, and an opening to pounce upon.

So, if your DD is being really spirited and emotional, for your husband to meet her "on her level" and really listen to her is to open himself to the moment... and that is terrifying for him.

These specific reactions are only really triggered when one has one's own children, so that is why you are seeing this emerge now.

How long were you together for before you were married? Have you gone through other major stresses with him before? How did he react to them? How was he when planning your wedding?

Sadly, from the little I know, based on your posts, your husband's behaviors based on fears of raising a narcissist, are actually the _result of *having been* raised by one._

If your husband still protects his mother or defends her actions, this will be tough.

If he does accept that she is a major problem, I suggest some serious counselling that _specializes_ in Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and some good books.

Acceptance of a problem is the first step, I know that sounds really trite, but it is true. Once he has that "ah-ha" moment, you can learn some good tools to use to replace the "Robot Function" he has been using.

Trin.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

I don wanna tell u what 2 do in your family. But your husband doesn't sound crazy. And there's something positive to be said for a Two-Parent family in this day and age. Somebody here said "sounds like the sound of a girl crying sets him off.". While he is the adult and you expect better out of him, obviously he's not gonna submit to your control in this issue. (sometimes a husband's just an extra, older kid LoL). Really, if the worst you can say about a man is that he wants what's best for his daughter he's a keeper. Even if he's all oblivious that we've evolved from the dark ages. You're the woman in the relationship. You're going to have to be more savvy. You say your daughter doesn't feel respected because of the way he chides her. And you say he feels "de-manned" for the way that you chide him. And suggesting therapy (while therapy is like a day-spa for the mind- Ahhh). Is like sending him to summer school because he failed.
There's some good suggestions here about things you should try to find out about his goals, motivations, and fears. But remember, not every man is modern. Some men are still "manly men" and stereotypes are often slightly rooted in the truth. Which means less anylysing, more superficial action because that's "the real world" for them. The physical plane baby.

That said, yk u cud satisfy both of your loves, to some extent, with tee-ball lessons. He could see that she was coached and on a team and to a man that means some thing. And he could show up to her games and drive her to practice And She Would Know By This That Her Father Loves Her.

What am I blabbering about? I don't follow sports. Is it even softball season? What about karate or soccor, just something with discipline and positive peer pressure. IMO not no mama pet projects like music or art.

No real good advice for. Just a few random thoughts. Great family! Boy, girl, and man who mostly knows his place. Enjoy! Good Luck. Keep us posted.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
Hello Brownmomma,

I have read many of your posts in this thread, and I can relate to some of them.

***My suggestions are ONLY based on your posts, I don't know you or your husband, so please ignore me if I am off-base.****

Could you tell me more about your husband's mother? Does he still have a relationship with her? Was/is she a narcissist?

If so, that will influence your husband for the rest of his life.

Since he has a degree in psychology, does he see his mother as a narcissist AND does he realise what kind of an effect that will have on his own behaviour and empathic abilities?

Listening to your daughter and respecting her person will NOT make her into a narcissist.... in fact, your husband's behaviour in these situations, (at least to me) is indicative of having been raised by a narcissist himself.

Based on your observations, does he "get it" when it comes to the emotional and personal space of your child? Does he realise, on any level that putting her in a closet, forcing her to drink something, dropping her, etc are violations of her person?

In my experience, recognizing that narcissistic parents are _very troubled, dominant, and influential people_ is the biggest first step.

The next is accepting that one _*is influenced*_ by one's narcisisstic parents, and vowing to be vigiliant and guard against it when parenting one's own children.

These two steps are key.

In my experience, children of narcissists have a mechanism that kicks in when faced with strong emotions.... it's like ice-cold autopilot. Robot function. It's there because as children, they needed to retreat into that frame of mind when the N-Parent attempted to wound them emotionally. Any sort of "real" reaction, one that shows empathy, compassion, or vulnerability was fuel for the N-Parent to use, and an opening to pounce upon.

So, if your DD is being really spirited and emotional, for your husband to meet her "on her level" and really listen to her is to open himself to the moment... and that is terrifying for him.

These specific reactions are only really triggered when one has one's own children, so that is why you are seeing this emerge now.

How long were you together for before you were married? Have you gone through other major stresses with him before? How did he react to them? How was he when planning your wedding?

Sadly, from the little I know, based on your posts, your husband's behaviors based on fears of raising a narcissist, are actually the _result of *having been* raised by one._

If your husband still protects his mother or defends her actions, this will be tough.

If he does accept that she is a major problem, I suggest some serious counselling that _specializes_ in Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and some good books.

Acceptance of a problem is the first step, I know that sounds really trite, but it is true. Once he has that "ah-ha" moment, you can learn some good tools to use to replace the "Robot Function" he has been using.

Trin.

Wow. Are you a psychologist? Can you recommend a book I can get on this? You have really described my dh, I believe. To tell you a little bit about my MIL...

DH is the only child of a single mother. She has always had an explosive temper and can only maintain friendships is the people she befriends are toadies. This is not my assessment, but dh's. DH and I have been together for 13 years, married for 10. The first time I met her, she was cool, but cordial. The first night of her trip, we were all in the car with dh driving her though the city, showing her the sights. He had been up for days finishing finals and projects (she was there for his graduation). I offered to drive and he accepted the offer. She had a fit (because he should have known that because of an incident years before she does not trust just anyone's driving her) and it was all downhill from there. The past 13 years have been a sad collage of her disowning him, getting angry at the kinds of Christmas, birthday and mother's day gifts he/ we chose, not accepting his calls, not allowing me in her home, not accepting her son's calls, ignoring my calls announcing the birth of her grandson, not acknowledging either of our kids, physically attacking me at one point, and on and on and on. I have not been perfect in this and neither has dh, but she has been really horrible, passive aggressive, and unreasonable. She has never gotten over the fact that her son is with me. She has no relationship with our kids. She does not call them or send presents or cards; she thinks it is dh's responsibility to make sure she has a relationship with the grandkids. Let me just add here: this is a situation where things are worse than they probably sound. She's really been horrible--and there is nothing really bad about me--dh and I both graduated from a top-notch university (she's snobby that way), and I have always been a loving and attentive wife. The worse thing about me is that I married her son.

Trin, I think your assessment is right on. DH and I have always had trouble in our communication because I am so "emotionally high needs" and he is robotic and detached in our interactions. I think with his psychology degree, he might agree that his mother is a narcissist and that it has affected him. Thank you for your post. It is very helpful to me.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hablame_today* 
I don wanna tell u what 2 do in your family. But your husband doesn't sound crazy. And there's something positive to be said for a Two-Parent family in this day and age. Somebody here said "sounds like the sound of a girl crying sets him off.". While he is the adult and you expect better out of him, obviously he's not gonna submit to your control in this issue. (sometimes a husband's just an extra, older kid LoL). Really, if the worst you can say about a man is that he wants what's best for his daughter he's a keeper. Even if he's all oblivious that we've evolved from the dark ages. You're the woman in the relationship. You're going to have to be more savvy. You say your daughter doesn't feel respected because of the way he chides her. And you say he feels "de-manned" for the way that you chide him. And suggesting therapy (while therapy is like a day-spa for the mind- Ahhh). Is like sending him to summer school because he failed.
There's some good suggestions here about things you should try to find out about his goals, motivations, and fears. But remember, not every man is modern. Some men are still "manly men" and stereotypes are often slightly rooted in the truth. Which means less anylysing, more superficial action because that's "the real world" for them. The physical plane baby.

That said, yk u cud satisfy both of your loves, to some extent, with tee-ball lessons. He could see that she was coached and on a team and to a man that means some thing. And he could show up to her games and drive her to practice And She Would Know By This That Her Father Loves Her.

What am I blabbering about? I don't follow sports. Is it even softball season? What about karate or soccor, just something with discipline and positive peer pressure. IMO not no mama pet projects like music or art.

No real good advice for. Just a few random thoughts. Great family! Boy, girl, and man who mostly knows his place. Enjoy! Good Luck. Keep us posted.

Gracias, Hablame. I like your style







I think it's helpful to have your type of perspective on a thread like this. I am sure many here might disagree with you, but I think it important to remember that while it is my job to connect with and protect dd, I have to acknowledge and consider dh's feelings as well.

You know, dh takes dd to swimming lessons once a week, but he used to take her to soccer which was a better fit, I think. I have noticed that dh responds well when dd does athletic things that make him proud. DD is very athletic and proud of it, so it's a win-win.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

Cool. Never know how they're gonna take my grass roots old school two-cents. Got another one. See if he'll go for a pen-pal session with your girl. Help her right a letter telling what she thinks about him. Read her his letter telling his thoughts about. Back and forth until they hash out their differences. It's easier to communicate clearly than face to face about some things. He can see how she feels without her "manipulative voice" saying the words, he might hear what she's saying. And writing his answer he'll be able to come across with "I love you, I respect you, here's what you need to understand.". And edit his "voice" until he sounds like the father he wants to sound like. I know it's not a life-shattering problem and there's no quick fix. You're just trying to re-direct the stream while it's still small. Uz wimmins gotta work togeatar.


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brownmama* 
Dh and I have always argued about the best way to handle her. Dh has always expressed a concern that she will be a brat, get herself hurt, *manipulate us*, etc. if not handled with a firm hand.


From your discriptions, your DD has found a very effective method of manipulation.... play the parents off each other.

Neither you nor your daughter can expect a father to disipline in the same manner as a mother. Men simply do not work in the same way women do. I am not saying that you should let him do what ever he wants... however you expect him to parent a certain way and its pretty obvious that he doesn't have the tools available to do that. If you want your children raised a certain way you have to make sure both parents are on board AND you MUST give the other parent the tools and tips needed to do so.

Otherwise you are setting up yourself, DH, DD and any other children for a lot of hardship and heartbreak.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ofwait* 
From your discriptions, your DD has found a very effective method of manipulation.... play the parents off each other.

Neither you nor your daughter can expect a father to disipline in the same manner as a mother. Men simply do not work in the same way women do. I am not saying that you should let him do what ever he wants... however you expect him to parent a certain way and its pretty obvious that he doesn't have the tools available to do that. If you want your children raised a certain way you have to make sure both parents are on board AND you MUST give the other parent the tools and tips needed to do so.

Otherwise you are setting up yourself, DH, DD and any other children for a lot of hardship and heartbreak.

You are making a lot of assumptions there... Are you really telling me _what I expect_? Really????


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I just came across this and read all the responses....great for *anybody* who's got a parenting style-difference. (though that is not the *only* issue here, it is a main issue)

I say what he's done, in the past or not, has crossed a line. And since he's "crossed the line" on more than one occasion and he does not seem to see "the line", I agree with everyone who's said counseling is needed.'

I'm with those who say try counseling and work it out.

HOWEVER.

Take it from an adult who's lived with a father like this. I *was* your little girl, in terms of thinking my dad was a mean guy who didn't love me. He also was a dad who crossed the line a few times in discipline.
No, he didn't beat me daily, or leave marks. Nobody knew about it.
But it happened. And it did affect me.

IF---he is not willing to go to counseling.

IF---this new side of trying to connect with her does not last.

IF---you try counseling and he STILL does not see the line he HAS crossed.

THEN....for your daughter's sake. LEAVE.

My mom did not leave. She continued to allow him to 'cross the line' with me. We tried family counseling a few times, every time I'd start to 'connect' with the person, we'd quit. (I think because they'd do sessions with just my parents and things probably came up that neither wanted to accept or hear.) I resented both of them--him for doing it, her for allowing it. I'm now married with children, and I struggle all the time with seeing and believing that dh actually does love me and care about me.
AND, it made me very afraid--when dh and I first got married, I left him after our first big fight--ran home, packed all my crap, left. Why? Because he yelled at me. He didn't hit me, didn't do anything physical, but the way he acted reminded me so much of my dad, and I swore I would NEVER live like that again. It took us TWO YEARS to get back together. Why? Because that's how long it took me to accept that that incident was a ONE-TIME deal, that it was NOT going to escalate into physical abuse, that he'd MADE A MISTAKE. One that he saw and was genuinely sorry for.
That he was a man who was NOT like my father. (Not to say that we have NEVER argued or fought since, oh, we have. It just doesn't cross lines.)

The thing is, your relationship with your dad is your first relationship with a man. It gives you your basis for what to expect in relationships with men.

Can I guarantee if my mom had left him, things would be much different for me? Well, life has few guarantees. I can say that at least I would have felt like somebody stood up for me, refused to allow me to continue to go through it.

take it from somebody who's lived it---He needs counseling, AND he needs to TAKE IT SERIOUSLY and CHANGE............or, for the sake of your daughter's well-being and future relationships, you need to leave.

It can't go on like it is now without causing emotional harm for her.


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## HappyAgain (Mar 24, 2007)

Brown Mama,

The bottom line here is he doesn't think he is doing anything wrong.
If he is not sorry, he is not going to change, he will only get worse over time. I have a feeling you are not ready to hear that.

If you can get him to counselling, you might have a chance.

Other than that your daughter deserves a peaceful, loving and sane home.

I do not take her words as disrespect. Most children idolize their fathers, even if they don't like them sometimes. You need to hear her words, but most importantly the feelings underneath..

His need to not admit to any mistakes, is a major symptom of Narcissism. They really do think they are perfect, yk?


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
Hello Brownmomma,

I have read many of your posts in this thread, and I can relate to some of them.

***My suggestions are ONLY based on your posts, I don't know you or your husband, so please ignore me if I am off-base.****

Could you tell me more about your husband's mother? Does he still have a relationship with her? Was/is she a narcissist?

If so, that will influence your husband for the rest of his life.

Since he has a degree in psychology, does he see his mother as a narcissist AND does he realise what kind of an effect that will have on his own behaviour and empathic abilities?

Listening to your daughter and respecting her person will NOT make her into a narcissist.... in fact, your husband's behaviour in these situations, (at least to me) is indicative of having been raised by a narcissist himself.

Based on your observations, does he "get it" when it comes to the emotional and personal space of your child? Does he realise, on any level that putting her in a closet, forcing her to drink something, dropping her, etc are violations of her person?

In my experience, recognizing that narcissistic parents are _very troubled, dominant, and influential people_ is the biggest first step.

The next is accepting that one _*is influenced*_ by one's narcisisstic parents, and vowing to be vigiliant and guard against it when parenting one's own children.

These two steps are key.

In my experience, children of narcissists have a mechanism that kicks in when faced with strong emotions.... it's like ice-cold autopilot. Robot function. It's there because as children, they needed to retreat into that frame of mind when the N-Parent attempted to wound them emotionally. Any sort of "real" reaction, one that shows empathy, compassion, or vulnerability was fuel for the N-Parent to use, and an opening to pounce upon.

So, if your DD is being really spirited and emotional, for your husband to meet her "on her level" and really listen to her is to open himself to the moment... and that is terrifying for him.

These specific reactions are only really triggered when one has one's own children, so that is why you are seeing this emerge now.

How long were you together for before you were married? Have you gone through other major stresses with him before? How did he react to them? How was he when planning your wedding?

Sadly, from the little I know, based on your posts, your husband's behaviors based on fears of raising a narcissist, are actually the _result of *having been* raised by one._

If your husband still protects his mother or defends her actions, this will be tough.

If he does accept that she is a major problem, I suggest some serious counselling that _specializes_ in Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and some good books.

Acceptance of a problem is the first step, I know that sounds really trite, but it is true. Once he has that "ah-ha" moment, you can learn some good tools to use to replace the "Robot Function" he has been using.

Trin.

So I ran your ideas by dh last night.







He actually agrees with your assessment 100%








I have no way of conveying what a big deal this is for him and for us. We started talking about it and he admitted that over the years when I have expressed strong emotional reactions he has found himself responding in much the same way he always has with his mother. He also understands and accepts that this has informed his own parenting style. And as I mentioned before, he wasn't really allowed to "be a kid" all that much, it seems to me. Also his mother was very physically punitive, so his idea of what is in or out of bounds is way different from mine (I grew up in a house with abuse although I was not myself abused or spanked). The past couple of days have been pretty good with dh being a lot more loving toward dd, dd responding better to him, and parenting books that dh has agreed to read arriving from Amazon. I have the names of a couple of good counselors and will follow up after the holiday.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

Good work. Good luck. Happy Hollidays!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

That's a really, really great update.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Moving in the right direction. This is a chance for dh to do a lot of healing, if he wants to.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Wow! I read the whole thing, and I am so glad to see the positive updates!

We have a somewhat similar situation in our family--it's not as extreme, and I too have had moments of shockingly poor judgment when overwhelmed by frustration with the kid, and we do agree on our philosophy of parenting, BUT we have been hearing things like, "Go away, Daddy! I don't like you!" for more than two years now and the kid has never turned against me that way, only his dad.

One thing that's very frustrating for us is that EnviroDaddy can do the exact same thing I would do, say the same words, everything, but EnviroKid will react much worse and hold a grudge. The way EnviroKid has explained it to me is, "Daddy's yelling is meaner than yours, and Daddy's not-yelling is scarier than yours." I think it is a difference in vocal tone, and we may not be able to do much about that. My point is, it's hard to convince EnviroDaddy to do things the way I do when it seems like every time he does it my way, it goes wrong!

Also, it's become obvious that EnviroKid holds his two parents to different standards, which I suspect is an issue for you too. He is much more forgiving of me. I can nag and snap at him all day long (sometimes, it feels like I have







) and he'll get mad at me for 5 minutes at a time but still want to be with me constantly; but if his dad slightly raises his voice after an entire day of pleasantness, EnviroKid will flip out, hit him, scream at him, demand that he go away, and refuse to be alone with him for hours or days.







My best guess is that this arises from our different roles when he was a baby: I am the source of life and food, the center of everything; he cannot risk detachment from me. Daddy is just this guy who's around, and he might even be a competitor for my attention; bonding with him is conditional on his cooperating with what EnviroKid wants to do, so objecting to EnviroKid's behavior jeopardizes the bond. And I'm not even a SAHM--are you? If you spend a lot more time with your kids than your husband does, and if your daughter was with you pretty constantly as a baby, this may well be a factor, even now--my kid is 4, too.

I second the recommendations of encouraging dad and daughter to do special things together. It works wonders in my family! For example, EnviroKid had been refusing to let EnviroDaddy put him to bed. One evening, they were talking about stories, and EnviroKid said he wished there was "something in between _The Wizard of Oz_ and _Little House on the Prairie_." EnviroDaddy suggested _A Christmas Carol_ (I wouldn't have put it in that category







but it's worked!) and offered to read it at bedtime. I came upstairs to find them getting ready for bed half an hour early and EnviroKid cheerfully informing me that my services would not be required.







Suddenly EnviroDaddy is the bedtime parent, at least until they finish the book!

Good luck to you!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
My best guess is that this arises from our different roles when he was a baby: I am the source of life and food, the center of everything; he cannot risk detachment from me. Daddy is just this guy who's around, and he might even be a competitor for my attention; bonding with him is conditional on his cooperating with what EnviroKid wants to do, so objecting to EnviroKid's behavior jeopardizes the bond.

I find this FASCINATING!!

And I'm glad A Christmas Carol is working out for them.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

One other thing I want to say: My child and his father often get along MUCH better when I am totally unavailable. We've had a number of times when I needed to do something so EnviroDaddy was going to put EnviroKid to bed, and within minutes either they were having a horrible fight and I felt I had to intervene, or EnviroKid was repeatedly escaping to come downstairs and nag me to fix all his quibbles...and the only way to stop it was for me to leave the house and stay out until he was asleep--which is frustrating when I'm trying to do something I need to do at home, but at least it's time to myself, and sometimes I've managed to drop in on a friend or something fun. EnviroDaddy says that once I leave, EnviroKid may continue to argue a bit, but he becomes noticeably more reasonable right away once he can't run to me for "rescue".

But what's really amazing is when I'm gone for a long time--like I'm at work on a day when there's no preschool, or even better I'm at Girl Scout camp all weekend and can't even be reached by phone unless it's an emergency--you'd think that these two guys who are normally at each other's throats every few hours would have a lot of conflicts during that time, but they generally get along extremely well!







I'll take over as the Parent On Duty pretty soon, but it's because EnviroDaddy is tired, not because EnviroKid is rejecting him...and I hear a lot of, "Daddy taught me this song!" and "Daddy and me made this cardboard robot!"...AND later EnviroDaddy tells me about all the great moments of working through things together and how he was able to prevent the usual problems through creative thinking!

It's like they're both different when I'm not there. What is it about me?









Anyway, Brownmama, if you're feeling that your husband really is abusive and can't be trusted alone with your daughter, IT IS IMPORTANT TO TRUST THAT FEELING! But if not, and if they're sometimes "needing" you to "rescue" one of them from the other, getting out of the way may help them to work through things between the two of them.


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## brownmama (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Wow! I read the whole thing, and I am so glad to see the positive updates!

We have a somewhat similar situation in our family--it's not as extreme, and I too have had moments of shockingly poor judgment when overwhelmed by frustration with the kid, and we do agree on our philosophy of parenting, BUT we have been hearing things like, "Go away, Daddy! I don't like you!" for more than two years now and the kid has never turned against me that way, only his dad.

One thing that's very frustrating for us is that EnviroDaddy can do the exact same thing I would do, say the same words, everything, but EnviroKid will react much worse and hold a grudge. The way EnviroKid has explained it to me is, "Daddy's yelling is meaner than yours, and Daddy's not-yelling is scarier than yours." I think it is a difference in vocal tone, and we may not be able to do much about that. My point is, it's hard to convince EnviroDaddy to do things the way I do when it seems like every time he does it my way, it goes wrong!

Also, it's become obvious that EnviroKid holds his two parents to different standards, which I suspect is an issue for you too. He is much more forgiving of me. I can nag and snap at him all day long (sometimes, it feels like I have







) and he'll get mad at me for 5 minutes at a time but still want to be with me constantly; but if his dad slightly raises his voice after an entire day of pleasantness, EnviroKid will flip out, hit him, scream at him, demand that he go away, and refuse to be alone with him for hours or days.







My best guess is that this arises from our different roles when he was a baby: I am the source of life and food, the center of everything; he cannot risk detachment from me. Daddy is just this guy who's around, and he might even be a competitor for my attention; bonding with him is conditional on his cooperating with what EnviroKid wants to do, so objecting to EnviroKid's behavior jeopardizes the bond. And I'm not even a SAHM--are you? If you spend a lot more time with your kids than your husband does, and if your daughter was with you pretty constantly as a baby, this may well be a factor, even now--my kid is 4, too.

I second the recommendations of encouraging dad and daughter to do special things together. It works wonders in my family! For example, EnviroKid had been refusing to let EnviroDaddy put him to bed. One evening, they were talking about stories, and EnviroKid said he wished there was "something in between _The Wizard of Oz_ and _Little House on the Prairie_." EnviroDaddy suggested _A Christmas Carol_ (I wouldn't have put it in that category







but it's worked!) and offered to read it at bedtime. I came upstairs to find them getting ready for bed half an hour early and EnviroKid cheerfully informing me that my services would not be required.







Suddenly EnviroDaddy is the bedtime parent, at least until they finish the book!

Good luck to you!









Thanks for the insights, Envirobecca. I think there are definitely some similarities in our family dynamics. I think you are totally right about the different standard. DD actually told my husband that she listens to mom because I let her do whatever she wants. This is so not true, as I am the parent (SAHM, yes) who does 90% of the disciplining. But, I do also spend much more quality time with her, and I think makes my nagging, fussing, saying no more forgiveable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 

Anyway, Brownmama, if you're feeling that your husband really is abusive and can't be trusted alone with your daughter, IT IS IMPORTANT TO TRUST THAT FEELING! But if not, and if they're sometimes "needing" you to "rescue" one of them from the other, getting out of the way may help them to work through things between the two of them.

So, I have never actually said in this thread that my husband is abusive. I know Envirobecca was not saying that I said that, but I just wanted to make it clear. Several other people have gone there, but I have not because I don't believe it to be true. The incidences I recounted sound horrible, and they are definitely inappropriate, but I have just been very confused as how a man who is otherwise always patient, compassionate, and gentle could have such moments of aggression and, as you put it "shockingly poor judgment" with his own baby girl. I do think, Envirobecca, that a man getting angry can be much more frightening to a child than a woman getting angry (especially to children who are home with me all day and see me going through a range of emotions all the time). I heard dd telling my mother today that her daddy "is huge, huge, he's so big, so much bigger than mom but that's because he's a lot older than she is" (I didn't bother to correct the much older part







) Well, DH is 5'11, 180 and I'm only a little smaller than that. But the point I'm making is that I think sometimes daddy's reactions can come across more strongly than mama's (or as dd calls me "mom." She's done that since 18 months







)

I think rather than making plans to leave my husband, the best things I can do for my family right now are to continue talking to my husband, helping him to draw out his feelings and understand his concerns; come up with a practical parenting strategy that we can both agree on; and get a little more hardnosed about enforcing (can't think of a better word right now) daddy/ daughter time--often my husband has tried to start routines or sunday afternoons out, but then he gets a little lazy and doesn't keep it up.

Interestingly enough, dh is starting to buy into the idea that, at least with our dd, more connection and love= better relationship and fewer discipline problems. I told him about the idea of a child's "loving cup" being full or not (is that Pam Leo?). He thinks the idea is right on the money, but the phrase is very, very silly.


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