# Consensual living



## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Is consensual living different from gentle discipline? If so, how?


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
Is consensual living different from gentle discipline? If so, how?

Consensual living is a philosophy of discipline that is gentle but there are people who discipline quite gently who are not cl.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
Consensual living is a philosophy of discipline that is gentle but there are people who discipline quite gently who are not cl.

Thats bound to confuse anyone! lol

We try and live consensually...but I am not 'professional' on the matter tbh despite the fact we are doing well and I would really love to be an advocate for it becasue its just...great!....

Here is the website: Which can explain it a lot better than I can!
http://www.consensual-living.com/

CL and GD are two different things. The best way for me to describe it is that with CL - you don't control your child. This is where the divide is I find... a lot of people have a hard time grasping that. I often hear questions such as 'but surely you have to control your child? - surely you have to make your child do something they dont want to do'...etc etc... I think the first step into understanding CL is to try and get your head around that and realise that there doesnt need to be control either way - that you can live _consensually_ (for me, it took just 'doing it' to trust it and see the 'results') but I realise its a hard step for a lot of people to take for many reasons - a lot of us were 'controlled' as children so become 'controlling' ourselves and a lot of us just cant handle the spontenaiety of things, the giving up knowing whats going to happen next. For one with OCD myself and an abusive childhood, this was a huge step!

I think CL goes much futher than GD. Becaues there is no controlling, there are no punishments, no praise, no threats, no conditions, no 'logical' concequences, etc...you are just living with respect for the other as you would any being - you are just living consensually. It goes beyond TCC and its more than just 'taking your child seriously'. Its probably considered the most 'out there' parenting around lol

Obviously this can be tricky in some situations because children are smaller and cant always voice what they are thinking and/or feeling or simply do things they would like to do because they cant do them physically yet or simply just dont know about certain aspects of our world yet being so young in it...but I feel as the parents, thats where its out job to help them and model consensual living and this involves a lot of 'letting go'.

I have noticed though, that the more consensual we are living the less 'issues' we are having. There are no more 'power struggles' because my son has complete power over his autonomy through my repsect for it so he is no longer feeling the need to do something simply to gain any control over his own life and wishes, etc. Its helping me deal with my own issues of 'impatience' and my own 'angers' inside of me and how to not reflect this onto my son through how I interact with him. There is a great balance of harmony in our house. It is very peacful parenting.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?

How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?

How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?

How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven? It seems to me it would be a HUGE culture shock. Or are most families not planning on having their children enter mainstream society? I mean that with no snark intended.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I can not answer all of those questions - however there is a consensual living yahoo group where many people will be willing to answer all of your questions collectivly!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/

I am quite positive there are archived saved files to every one of those questions with answers to them you can find easily.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4G8cSO6...20Toddlers.pdf


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## Nan'sMom (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?

How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?

How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?

How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?

We practice CL as much as possible and it has made our lives so much better. A few examples of how we've handled the things you've brought up, although solutions change around here to meet needs:

How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?

CL in a parking lot is near and dear to my heart. I freaked at first having two to look after near cars and did some yelling. Then I stepped back and figured out ways to meet BOTH our needs (dd1's and mine). So often she gets to run in parking lots after I've confirmed it's safe to do so. Since I've worked on being realistic she's gotten WAY better about listening to me and staying nearby if it's busy and necessary. Last week I brought them to NYC and took the subways, crossed busy streets, etc. and had an amazingly high level of cooperation. We have lots of communication and brainstorming.

Similar for children hurting each other. I focus first on the one who's been hurt, empathize, brainstorm, etc. It has helped immesurably in inter-sibling interactions.

How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?

We work on mutually agreeable solutions. I also work on my own issues (like, will the world really fall apart if her hair doesn't get brushed or washed).

How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?

I never force foods--wouldn't even if I wasn't CL. I do ask that high sugar foods not be eaten late at night, as I am pregnant and too tired to stay up super-late with two small children. I do talk a lot about foods in honest terms and we work together on solutions (like homemade healthy baked goods, etc.). I try not to get too worked up if they want to eat candy, etc.

How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?
Dd1 could be characterized as high needs or spirited. It's hard to describe how much better life is when we work together on consensual living rather than on top-down parenting.

It is really important to note that consensual living means taking everyone's needs into account. Not just the child's, as is sometimes mis-perceived. It requires lots of thought and creativity but in our house anyway, makes life more fun and cooperative.


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## Nan'sMom (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven? It seems to me it would be a HUGE culture shock. Or are most families not planning on having their children enter mainstream society? I mean that with no snark intended.

CL helps children think outside the box and find solutions that don't have right/wrong and punishment/reward as the only answers. This works in the real world, where things aren't all black and white.

I don't want my children to be treated badly in a job they hate and feel they have no choice, if that's what mainstream means. But I think that in living this way they acquire many more problem-solving skills than otherwise. I've met some teens recently who have been raisedthis way and it's very inspiring.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

I am not very qualified to answer the specific questions asked about CL, but I espouse the philosophy. Here's my take on thsoe situations that I have experience with:

_How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?_ For safety issues, the situation can often be controlled rather than the child. I work to not expose DD to a dangerous situation that she's not prepared to navigate. Where this is unavoidable and she can't be depended on to vouch for her own safety (which is true for us in parking lots at the moment) she and I have found a mutual solution with her riding piggy-back.

_How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?_ I've found that left to her own devices, DD is not opposed to doing these things, particularly doing them with me. When a problem arises (she doesn't like her hair washed these days), we search for something we can both live with.

_How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?_ Again, I think kids have a better handle on diet than we sometimes give them credit for. If something was so tempting that it was all she wanted to eat, I'd probably keep it out of the house. I can respect difficulty trying new foods, personally, it doesn't bother me.

_How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?_ I don't think my daughter is more spirited than the average 2 year old, so I'll leave this for someone more experienced.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven? It seems to me it would be a HUGE culture shock. Or are most families not planning on having their children enter mainstream society? I mean that with no snark intended.

I don't worry about this, and I'll be honest with you: I don't find that the mainstream/real world is reward/punishment driven. My life isn't. As children start interacting with other people more and more, they find that other people have their own ways of doing things and we all have to navigate that, but I think it's still possible to make our individual choices based on our intrinsic motivation and personal values and goals. It's largely a matter of perspective, I think; that's my take on it, anyway.


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## terrabella (Oct 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?

How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?

How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?

How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?

I think parents feel a need to subscribe to one philosophy, and mind the rules. Perhaps it starts with pregnancy when we are encouraged to make our birth choice, and it always seems like you are just supposed to go down one road after you choose it, no stepping on the grass.

I subscribe to nothing, but find I'm a bit of everything. I handle my kids with empathy and respect, this leads to a lot of what could be CL, however, I do see that my young undeveloped offspring need some control too, then I appear more GD, yet, there are times when things are going really wild, and I flat out remember and remind them, that I am the mother, and YES, that DOES give me the final say. Period. And that can almost make me seem mainstream. But we have a wonderful household. Everyone is helpful, respectful, empathetic, and above all HAPPY. And it is an everchanging culture. As we all age, have new additions, move, etc., the "rules" are ever flexing and elvoving so that they meet all of our needs.

Follow your gut, use your head, always feel with an empathetic heart, remember when you were their age, and don't forget to be selfish sometimes too!


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven? It seems to me it would be a HUGE culture shock. Or are most families not planning on having their children enter mainstream society? I mean that with no snark intended.

We don't practice CL here, but it seems to me that the mainstream world by and large IS consensual. Think of how you generally relate to your friends and neighbors, your coworkers, or your spouse. Do you ever tell those people what they MUST do, and what the punishment will be if they don't comply? Most adults, most of the time, use polite requests, discussion, negotiation, sharing of feelings and opinions, etc. to influence other people's behavior - not rewards and punishments.

Of course there are rules governing your behavior at most jobs - but you're not forced to take any particular job, or to keep working at a job where you don't like the rules. There are also laws you may feel forced to obey - but, really, how many things are there that you avoid doing just because they're against the law? Don't most of us have other reasons not to do things like stealing or assaulting people - reasons that don't depend on our having had rules and punishments as kids?


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

But I have never had a boss who was OK with me NOT doing what was requested. They may ask me politely but its not really a request, ya know?


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
But I have never had a boss who was OK with me NOT doing what was requested. They may ask me politely but its not really a request, ya know?

Yeah, but the boss/employee relationship is not at all typical of most of your relationships. And the relationship is consensual in that you enter into it voluntarily, and can choose to end it at any time. And a lot of bosses - most, I would guess - are at least willing to listen to you if you have a good reason why you don't think you should do what was asked.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sari Mama* 
I think parents feel a need to subscribe to one philosophy, and mind the rules. Perhaps it starts with pregnancy when we are encouraged to make our birth choice, and it always seems like you are just supposed to go down one road after you choose it, no stepping on the grass.

I subscribe to nothing, but find I'm a bit of everything. I handle my kids with empathy and respect, this leads to a lot of what could be CL, however, I do see that my young undeveloped offspring need some control too, then I appear more GD, yet, there are times when things are going really wild, and I flat out remember and remind them, that I am the mother, and YES, that DOES give me the final say. Period. And that can almost make me seem mainstream. But we have a wonderful household. Everyone is helpful, respectful, empathetic, and above all HAPPY. And it is an everchanging culture. As we all age, have new additions, move, etc., the "rules" are ever flexing and elvoving so that they meet all of our needs.

Follow your gut, use your head, always feel with an empathetic heart, remember when you were their age, and don't forget to be selfish sometimes too!

Great post! That's us, too.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I am not totally CL (yet!) but I aspire to be....here are my suggestions:

_How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?_

With regards to the parking lot issue, I was able to convince my DD that she needed to hold my hand -BUT I would take the time to walk wherever she wanted to and examine whatever she needed. That was a good compromise that actually worked better than any of the yelling, forcible carrying, etc that I was doing.

With regards to hurting the sibling, my philosophy is that everyone must respect other's "body" space. That's part of living consensually. And it has to be taught. So when DD tries to hurt her brother, I state "we don't hit others" and then offer her other solutions "If you are angry with him/me, you say "that makes me ANGRY" with a loud growl or whatever". She likes being given positive alternatives and so far that has really helped. I've also helped her work through her confusing emotions by letting her express how unhappy she was with the new arrival by playing with dolls and treating them "badly" or letting her dolls get in "big trouble". If she really gets out of control, I've taught her that a retreat to her "safe space" (her bed) is needed until she is under control. She is allowed to slam her door and I only enter after knocking and asking if she is ready to talk.

That's just what we do.

Not sure what the "fire" issue is....

_How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?_
This is the main area where I am NOT CL - I've tried putting her more in charge of this but with her sensory issues, thing get out of control quickly (her hair, oh her hair!)....although lately I've thought maybe just let her grow dreadlocks would be an acceptable middle ground - I saw a little girl with them and she was really cute. Hmmm....She's an enthusiastic bather and tooth brusher though so I haven't had problems there.

_How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?_

I never force DD to try new foods. If she says "no" I just leave it out and sometimes she will get around to eating it. She also often has backwards dinner - with dessert first she is often willing to move on to other options. We do have a rule of "only one" (not unlimited desserts) but that's because everyone in our family has to share and you can't hog them! LOL

_How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?_

It is not easy. The main struggle for me is that much of CL seems dependent on your child understanding what the options are, and my child has been very low verbal most of her toddler-hood. Now at 4.5 she is just beginning to understand more complex language and CL is getting easier and easier. But for a low verbal child, you have to really think in very simple, black/white terms. And some issues seem impossible to explain the options to the child if they don't understand what you are saying. I just tried to "honor the impulse" as much as I could, but I would not say we were strictly CL because it just wasn't possible - despite what folks have posted on other lists. But then my DD is special needs so maybe it depends on the child and what their needs are.

OTOH, if you child is merely "resistant" or strong-willed, CL is MUCH more peaceful because then it give the child more "say" over their life and things proceed more smoothly - at least I think. DD and I rarely get into power struggles. But I've seen her really get into them with my MIL who is much more "authoritarian" when she is with her....

hth
peace,
robyn


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

Greetings mamas!

I am so thrilled to see a thread about CL here on MDC. I have been a member of the CL yahoo list for many months now, and since *I* have adopted a more consensual way of living, I am amazed at the amount of freedom and joy I feel...which reflects on everyone I come into contact with.

While I am a work in progress, and not a CL 'professional' (to borrow from another mama on this thread), I would like to share some of what I have learned about CL - both from mamas and papas on the yahoo list who have been living this way for many years...some for decades, as well as from my own experience.

The following is cut and pasted from the CL homepage:

_Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone's wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties.

Consensual Living is broad and far reaching. It influences the way we interact with everyone, from our immediate families to our community and the world at large. It is about assigning positive intent and looking for solutions. This can apply in so many arenas. It can change interactions, even if they are historically adversarial. _

First, I want to be clear that this is *my* perception of CL. This is what CL means to me. CL will look different in every home, in every relationship. There is no one *right* way to do CL. Sure, there are principles, but there are no *rules*.

My understanding is that CL is *not* a parenting style. It is a way of living. While it seems that most people do come to CL through the parenting journey, it does not end there. It extends to all relationships, all interactions, both within our homes and our communities.

After practicing CL for many months, and experiencing a *huge* evolution in not only my relationships, but in my thought processes, there are some 'concepts' that I kind of keep in the front of my mind. They are:

Trust...that there *is* a solution that will work for everyone. Each person has an innate wisdom, each person is walking their own journey...regardless of age. Trust that innate wisdom...When we learn to trust ourselves, the people around us, and the process, then each person is able to trust his/her innate wisdom as well. This does not mean we will agree with *everything* that the people around us choose...this does mean that we trust that they are making the best choices they can, with the information they have, right now. This means to trust that each person is right where s/he needs to be, right now.

Consider...each person as an individual. That each person has different needs, and that is okay.

Let go...of the stories we tell ourselves, of judgements, of expectation, of dogma. (For more on this, visit www.thework.com) Just like the Law of Attractions states...what we put out will come to us. So if we are expecting our children to act a certain way, it is very likely they will live up to our expectation. When we attach stories or judgements, we are then coming from a place of division rather than a place of connection.

Choice...There are *always* choices! Someone mentioned an employee-boss relationship. Yes, when we work at a job, we are *expected* to accomplish certain tasks. However, we *choose* to work at that job. When we choose to work at the job, we are then *choosing* to do the work that job entails. We can choose to work somewhere else, we can choose to work from home, we can choose to not work at all. Yes, if we choose not to work, then we also choose not to make money. But it is still a choice. Sometimes we need to think *way* outside the box to come to this realization...but there are *always* choices. Same goes for our children...there are always choices. Yes, the younger they are, the more creative we have to be. But there is a way to honor their individuality and autonomy...even when they are so little. The best way to understand more about this is to visit the CL website (www.consensual-living.com) and the yahoo list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living)

Underlying needs...In the situation someone described about a child hitting his sister, a consensual way of thinking (IMO) is first come from a place of empathy, not judgement. First, it helps to let go of the 'hitting is wrong, he *should* not be hitting her', we let go of the right/wrong mentality and 'shoulds' (there's actually a great thread about this currently on the list). Next, we can state what we see, without judgement, refelct back what we are hearing from each child, and find ways to help. The thought is that when a child is acting out, there is an unmet need. We might think what happened up to this point to create this 'space'? We might think about 'HALT' (Hungry Angry Lonely Tired). We use 'I' statements rather than 'you' statements (visit the Center for Non-violent Communication for more on this: The Center for Nonviolent Communication).

In this specific example, I would probably go to the person who is hurt first. I will also try to remember that when someone lashes out to hurt another, they may be hurting inside too, and they are using the information they have right in this moment to express themselves. After helping with any hurts, I would then find out what the need is. If someone is hungry, tired, lonely, etc., I would find a way to meet the need. If the 'hitter' just moved on and continues to play...I might wait for an opportunity to talk about it later, when we are out of that space and we are in a place of connection. I might role play or brainstorm ways to express our anger without hurting. I will definitely listen, and offer empathy for what the child was feeling...knowing that whether or not I agree with the action, that their feelings are valid.

This goes for *everyone*. The parents count too! When I have an unmet need (lack of food, water, sleep, tidy house, etc.), I become more coercive and authoritarian...I resort to what I grew up with, what I *know* because it had been ingrained in me for so long. So it is important that I find ways to meet my needs as well. I have found that the less I judge, the more open I am to *all* possibilities (even ones that seem impossible), the more my children open up to this as well...and now they actually come up with the solutions to their own problems...or ask to help. It does not happen everytime, but it happens more and more. They even find ways to help me get my needs met now, and are more willing to give a little so that everyone can be happy, rather than just themselves.

Working together...With CL, there is a focus on connection and working together, rather than coercion and division. Something someone wrote to me on the list that sticks with me is 'when children are not pushed, there is nothing to push against'. I keep this in the forefront of my mind. It is important that *I* eat organic, that *I* stay away from wheat, that *I* stay away from sugar, that *I* limit my TV/computer time. I *know* this to be true (for *me) because I have had a relationship with all of these things, I know how I feel when I over-induldge, so I have learned how my body reacts, and what I need to do to take care of me. Within the context of CL, only my children will *know* what their bodies need...and they will learn this through experience. While I may share my thoughts and experiences with them, ultimately, the final say is *theirs*, not mine. I am here to support them, not make choices for them. This means that they might make choices I dont' agree with. This may mean that their choices may render consequences they did not expect or foresee...in that case, it is my role, again, to support...to be there to empathize, to help them find ways to work through it. This is not a space for me to judge, to say 'I told you so' or that 'You got what was coming to you'. This is their chance to learn valuable lessons for themselves, and really internalize the experience, rather than always having to rely on someone else's judgement, which to them is probably pretty abstract. Again, it is my place to offer empathy and support.

Someone mentioned hygiene...so I'll work with that example. My kids are not forced to brush their teeth. They never have been. I might suggest it. I might share with them why *I* feel it is important to brush their teeth. I have one child who has always been very conscientious about oral hygiene. I suppose because I model by taking care of my own mouth, I answer her questions when she asks why I floss, use mouthwash, what happens when one doesn't brush (my answer to this is that it is different for everyone....that usually leads us into a talk about genetics). For my little boy, who doesn't like to brush his teeth because the sensation is very uncomfortable for him, we find creative ways to take care of his mouth. I suggest swishing with water after meals, I suggest certain snacks that are good for teeth (apples, carrots), they chew xylitol gum, he uses mouthwash, sometimes he will wipe out his mouth with a cloth. And sometimes he chooses to brush, and sometimes I notice that it's been awhile, and offer to help him. And sometimes he skips a day...and sometimes more than one. Over all, he and his sister have very healthy mouths. And there is never a time where we argue, because I don't push or force them to do it. Last night...about an hour after they went to bed, they came downstairs and said they were discussing teeth, and would like to brush their teeth.

I'm sure there is so much more I could go into...but the kids are ready to listen to a story they want me to read...so I'm going to go. I hope this helps. I think the main point to remember is that CL will look different in each family...we are all unique, and have our own, unique needs. I highly suggest visiting the websites I listed for more clear and concise information and ideas. I have a tendency to be very long-winded...

Happy travels!







:


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

_Consensual living is a philosophy of discipline that is gentle but there are people who discipline quite gently who are not cl._

CL is more a philosophy of life...a way of being, rather than a form or philosophy of discipline. It is a way of living in which each person is valued for who s/he is in this moment, and empowered to be the conductor of his/her own experience. (IMO)

_With regards to hurting the sibling..._

In the past, I would ask the 'perpetrator' to find a 'safe place' where she could find peace and regain control. What I have found is that this actually serves to sever the connection, and alienate her. Once I began listening with not just my ears, but, more importantly, with an open heart, I realized that there were underlying needs she was expressing that were ummet...When I chose to separate her from the family (and from the process), and came at her with judgements about hitting and what was *expected* or how things *should* be, I was, in essence, shutting her down, and alienating her.

What she needed most was to be heard. What she needed to know was that her feelings were valid, regardless of the behaviour and how I *felt* about it. What I try to do now is assume positive intent and accept dd for who she is, right now, in this moment. I try to see the action as an expression of something (a feeling, a need, etc.) rather than as a 'negative' or 'mean' (or whatever word one might associate with hitting) act. I try not to suspect that Dd is out to hurt her brother. I assume that she is doing all she knows how in that moment to get her needs met.

Dd is what I suppose some might call a 'spirited child' (I try not to label, but I think this will be helpful for this discussion). She certainly uses her body to express her feelings, especially when they are very intense...which is almost always. Both her anger and her love pour out of every one of her pores....

When I judge her actions without empathizing with where she is coming from, without validating her feelings and looking for unmet needs, I am essentially closing down the lines of communication, and giving the message that I do not accept her, or that I only accept her when she is acting in an 'appropriate' way. While the 'hitting' may bring up certain feelings within me, I know (now) that this is *me* and the stories I tell myself about hitting (www.thework.com).

I also believe that hitting, in and of itself, is not 'wrong'. There are several situations where I think hitting would be an appropriate response. So I do not want to teach my kids that hitting, in and of itself, is wrong. What I do want to do is support them in learning what their needs are and how to meet them. The best way to do this is work through the process together, from a place of empathy and understanding, of connection and together-ness.

_Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven? It seems to me it would be a HUGE culture shock. Or are most families not planning on having their children enter mainstream society? I mean that with no snark intended._

When I first had a child, I made parenting choices based upon how I wanted my child to 'turn out'. Everything I said and did was very thought out...I edited my speech and what she experienced based on what *I* wanted her experience to be, based on what I thought it would do to her as an adult.

Now that I practice consensual living (to the best of my ability...which isn't always *my* ideal...but I am working towards that), I find that when I focus on expectations and desired outcomes, I am not grounded in the present. I am instead focusing on hypothetical situations that really have no basis on reality. I think mindfulness really comes into play here. What about right *now*? What will work in this moment? What will work for everyone? What will bring about connection and joy? What *feels* good? When I live for the future, I find that I often lack confidence in my decisions. Looking back, I think it's a sad thing when a child comes to me and asks 'can I have some ice cream' and I have a debate with myself in my head about the effects of ice cream, and how, if I say yes this time, it might be harder to say 'no' next time, and how will they turn out as adults if I 'give in' and say yes to ice cream right now...OY!!! What a headache!

Since I have let go and created the space for my children to explore their world without restrictions, they no longer ask to have ice cream. If I see that's all that they are eating, I might look to an underlying need...perhaps they are craving sugar because they haven't eaten protein lately, perhaps they need calcium, or maybe it's just fun to eat something cold and sweet and sticky...either way, I do not choose for them...I might offer my opinion, I might strongly suggest something more or different, or I might add some strawberries to their ice cream to make a more well-rounded snack...but all in all, it's up to them to decide what they have, how much, and when to stop.

It is also important to me to eat organic and support organic companies and local farmers, so these are the types of foods that are available in our home. If we are at the grocery store and they see something they'd like, I'll try to find something similar if it has preservatives or dyes or something like that. But I am really trying to practice living in a way that brings more and more joy into our lives...right now.

I also live by the words of Ghandi 'Be the change you wish to see in the world.' I don't feel I or anyone has to live based upon what others are doing. What I want is to live in a way that feels good, connected, and joyful to me and those around me, right now. This incorporates consideration of others, because I would not feel good if I knew a choice I was making affected someone in a negative way. That is what I want for my children. I want them to follow their hearts, and know that they are loved and supported throughout.

I do not find that it is my role to make decisions for them, to direct their journey, or even to guide. I feel that it is my role to unconditionally love, support, and help. I feel it is my role to share my journey with them...my job to share my experiences and the wisdom I have gained throughout my life. I feel it is my job to honor them each as individuals, and know that while I will always share my values with them, I will not expect that their values will be the same as mine. I think it is my role to walk my talk, so that they have role models in their lives who are true to themselves and their words. I think it is my job to find ways to connect with my family, help them find ways to meet their needs, and create a climate of joy and cooperation in our home.

I hope to treat them as equals, with the same kindness and respect I would afford any other human being.

If they were in the middle of the road and about to get hit by a car, you bet I'd run out there and get them out of the way without asking...but I would do that for anyone I saw in that situation. Of course, there are those kinds of things that require immediate action.

Okay...I'm sure you've heard quite enough from me for now...I write so much because I want to share how beautifully my relationships have evolved as I have moved into a more CL way to live...and this goes for all of my relationships...not just my parenting.

I think there is a lot of misconceptions of what CL really is about. For anyone who is intersted in exploring CL either as a concept or as a way of life, I really recommend checking out the CL website or yahoo group.

Blessings!







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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven? It seems to me it would be a HUGE culture shock. Or are most families not planning on having their children enter mainstream society? I mean that with no snark intended.

Nope.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
But I have never had a boss who was OK with me NOT doing what was requested. They may ask me politely but its not really a request, ya know?

Actually boss/employee relationships are perfect examples of consentual living. Prospective employer is looking for someone to do xyz tasks and willing to pay abc salary. I am looking for a job that pays abc salary and capable and willing to do xyz talks. If I'm not willing to take the salary they want to pay or unable or unwilling to do the tasks they want I don't take the job. It's that simple. Sometimes my need for income exceeds my desires for job description but regardless it's a choice I'm making to take the job or not. I'm consenting to the parameters.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I loved! your post







I think I am going to print this out for my dd who is a new and very young mama - beautifully put ... thanks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
Greetings mamas!

I am so thrilled to see a thread about CL here on MDC. I have been a member of the CL yahoo list for many months now, and since *I* have adopted a more consensual way of living, I am amazed at the amount of freedom and joy I feel...which reflects on everyone I come into contact with.

While I am a work in progress, and not a CL 'professional' (to borrow from another mama on this thread), I would like to share some of what I have learned about CL - both from mamas and papas on the yahoo list who have been living this way for many years...some for decades, as well as from my own experience.

The following is cut and pasted from the CL homepage:

_Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone's wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties.

Consensual Living is broad and far reaching. It influences the way we interact with everyone, from our immediate families to our community and the world at large. It is about assigning positive intent and looking for solutions. This can apply in so many arenas. It can change interactions, even if they are historically adversarial._

First, I want to be clear that this is *my* perception of CL. This is what CL means to me. CL will look different in every home, in every relationship. There is no one *right* way to do CL. Sure, there are principles, but there are no *rules*.

My understanding is that CL is *not* a parenting style. It is a way of living. While it seems that most people do come to CL through the parenting journey, it does not end there. It extends to all relationships, all interactions, both within our homes and our communities.

After practicing CL for many months, and experiencing a *huge* evolution in not only my relationships, but in my thought processes, there are some 'concepts' that I kind of keep in the front of my mind. They are:

Trust...that there *is* a solution that will work for everyone. Each person has an innate wisdom, each person is walking their own journey...regardless of age. Trust that innate wisdom...When we learn to trust ourselves, the people around us, and the process, then each person is able to trust his/her innate wisdom as well. This does not mean we will agree with *everything* that the people around us choose...this does mean that we trust that they are making the best choices they can, with the information they have, right now. This means to trust that each person is right where s/he needs to be, right now.

Consider...each person as an individual. That each person has different needs, and that is okay.

Let go...of the stories we tell ourselves, of judgements, of expectation, of dogma. (For more on this, visit www.thework.com) Just like the Law of Attractions states...what we put out will come to us. So if we are expecting our children to act a certain way, it is very likely they will live up to our expectation. When we attach stories or judgements, we are then coming from a place of division rather than a place of connection.

Choice...There are *always* choices! Someone mentioned an employee-boss relationship. Yes, when we work at a job, we are *expected* to accomplish certain tasks. However, we *choose* to work at that job. When we choose to work at the job, we are then *choosing* to do the work that job entails. We can choose to work somewhere else, we can choose to work from home, we can choose to not work at all. Yes, if we choose not to work, then we also choose not to make money. But it is still a choice. Sometimes we need to think *way* outside the box to come to this realization...but there are *always* choices. Same goes for our children...there are always choices. Yes, the younger they are, the more creative we have to be. But there is a way to honor their individuality and autonomy...even when they are so little. The best way to understand more about this is to visit the CL website (www.consensual-living.com) and the yahoo list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living)

Underlying needs...In the situation someone described about a child hitting his sister, a consensual way of thinking (IMO) is first come from a place of empathy, not judgement. First, it helps to let go of the 'hitting is wrong, he *should* not be hitting her', we let go of the right/wrong mentality and 'shoulds' (there's actually a great thread about this currently on the list). Next, we can state what we see, without judgement, refelct back what we are hearing from each child, and find ways to help. The thought is that when a child is acting out, there is an unmet need. We might think what happened up to this point to create this 'space'? We might think about 'HALT' (Hungry Angry Lonely Tired). We use 'I' statements rather than 'you' statements (visit the Center for Non-violent Communication for more on this: The Center for Nonviolent Communication).

In this specific example, I would probably go to the person who is hurt first. I will also try to remember that when someone lashes out to hurt another, they may be hurting inside too, and they are using the information they have right in this moment to express themselves. After helping with any hurts, I would then find out what the need is. If someone is hungry, tired, lonely, etc., I would find a way to meet the need. If the 'hitter' just moved on and continues to play...I might wait for an opportunity to talk about it later, when we are out of that space and we are in a place of connection. I might role play or brainstorm ways to express our anger without hurting. I will definitely listen, and offer empathy for what the child was feeling...knowing that whether or not I agree with the action, that their feelings are valid.

This goes for *everyone*. The parents count too! When I have an unmet need (lack of food, water, sleep, tidy house, etc.), I become more coercive and authoritarian...I resort to what I grew up with, what I *know* because it had been ingrained in me for so long. So it is important that I find ways to meet my needs as well. I have found that the less I judge, the more open I am to *all* possibilities (even ones that seem impossible), the more my children open up to this as well...and now they actually come up with the solutions to their own problems...or ask to help. It does not happen everytime, but it happens more and more. They even find ways to help me get my needs met now, and are more willing to give a little so that everyone can be happy, rather than just themselves.

Working together...With CL, there is a focus on connection and working together, rather than coercion and division. Something someone wrote to me on the list that sticks with me is 'when children are not pushed, there is nothing to push against'. I keep this in the forefront of my mind. It is important that *I* eat organic, that *I* stay away from wheat, that *I* stay away from sugar, that *I* limit my TV/computer time. I *know* this to be true (for *me) because I have had a relationship with all of these things, I know how I feel when I over-induldge, so I have learned how my body reacts, and what I need to do to take care of me. Within the context of CL, only my children will *know* what their bodies need...and they will learn this through experience. While I may share my thoughts and experiences with them, ultimately, the final say is *theirs*, not mine. I am here to support them, not make choices for them. This means that they might make choices I dont' agree with. This may mean that their choices may render consequences they did not expect or foresee...in that case, it is my role, again, to support...to be there to empathize, to help them find ways to work through it. This is not a space for me to judge, to say 'I told you so' or that 'You got what was coming to you'. This is their chance to learn valuable lessons for themselves, and really internalize the experience, rather than always having to rely on someone else's judgement, which to them is probably pretty abstract. Again, it is my place to offer empathy and support.

Someone mentioned hygiene...so I'll work with that example. My kids are not forced to brush their teeth. They never have been. I might suggest it. I might share with them why *I* feel it is important to brush their teeth. I have one child who has always been very conscientious about oral hygiene. I suppose because I model by taking care of my own mouth, I answer her questions when she asks why I floss, use mouthwash, what happens when one doesn't brush (my answer to this is that it is different for everyone....that usually leads us into a talk about genetics). For my little boy, who doesn't like to brush his teeth because the sensation is very uncomfortable for him, we find creative ways to take care of his mouth. I suggest swishing with water after meals, I suggest certain snacks that are good for teeth (apples, carrots), they chew xylitol gum, he uses mouthwash, sometimes he will wipe out his mouth with a cloth. And sometimes he chooses to brush, and sometimes I notice that it's been awhile, and offer to help him. And sometimes he skips a day...and sometimes more than one. Over all, he and his sister have very healthy mouths. And there is never a time where we argue, because I don't push or force them to do it. Last night...about an hour after they went to bed, they came downstairs and said they were discussing teeth, and would like to brush their teeth.

I'm sure there is so much more I could go into...but the kids are ready to listen to a story they want me to read...so I'm going to go. I hope this helps. I think the main point to remember is that CL will look different in each family...we are all unique, and have our own, unique needs. I highly suggest visiting the websites I listed for more clear and concise information and ideas. I have a tendency to be very long-winded...

Happy travels!







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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
I loved! your post







I think I am going to print this out for my dd who is a new and very young mama - beautifully put ... thanks!


Awww, thanks Cherie2!
















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## Mom2Joseph (May 31, 2006)

Thanks for this thread. I try so hard to CL but sometimes I get so frustrated!

I'm too tired to quote but the whole issue of violence between and older child and a younger child is one I can't figure out. My DS has Aspergers so he just doesn't get it that when he hurts someone -that they hurt! It is driving us crazy. I need to get more educated and more creative but I'm grasping at straws here.

Otherwise, I love CL!


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Help me understand more.

I went on the consensual living website and the 3 principles of CL are equality, trust, and self determination.

I have trouble with the equality and self determination for the young children. Yes, they are equal in that they deserve to be heard, and respected. Where they aren't equal in my eyes is that they don't have the maturity to decide everything for themselves.

How do children raised under the CL philosophy have any self discipline? I feel like I need to teach them to wash when they are dirty, brush their teeth, eat nutritious foods, pick up their toys, and on and on. If I make all of these things optional and they can do it on their own time because 'they know what is best for their body' how will they become self disciplined adults?

Re: the job/employee issue. I see your point (I don't remember who made the point) that the relationship is consensual. My fear is that my kid will grow up to think that a job is an option and she can quit whenever she doesn't like it anymore. Sometimes you have to keep a yucky job to pay the bills until you can work something else out.

Anyway, I love this philosophy...to a point. Or maybe I love it in my adult relationships. I do my best to be this way with my husband...no expectations just requests. I just can't wrap my mind around letting my kid decide EVERYTHING. I picture her all grown up with ratting hair and decaying teeth, homeless and dumpster diving because she just quit her 99th job since the demands were too much and the boss' breath stank. *If everything in life is optional in the formative years, what kind of adult does this produce?*
Anyone raise kids with CL philosophy and now they are adults?
TIA...enjoying this thread


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

See the way I see it, CL is MORE likely to give you an adult who is completely responsible for themselves. Too many people I know IRL have a tendency to blame someone else for their problems. (Boss, partner, parents, whoever). And I think it has to do with being "forced" to do things as a child and having someone convenient to blame.

I think that if from an early age you have been encouraged to make your own choices (with guidance that you sought or were offered) then I think that you will quickly realize that the "consequences" of your actions are due entirely to your own decisions - good or bad.

I love your image of the dirty dumpster diving girl - so funny! - but I just don't see that being a natural outcome of CL...If anything I think someone who is raised CL would be MORE sensitive to the consequences of their decisions, not less.

I think the key issue is really the guidance issue. For me, I see very young children as needing lots of "guidance" in the sense of us providing them with alternatives, helping them articulate their needs, etc Because they just can't do it yet on their own - or at least not as fully as an adult. But I'm not to sure about coerced guidance....there are areas where I still do that (note: hairbrushing) but I hope to relinquish that as soon as we can find a solution that makes us both happy.

I think it's the consensual part that is important - it's not about "do what you want" - it's about "how do you get what you want while respecting others?" What's the MUTUALLY agreeable solution...As the mom, I'm part of the equation naturally...

....just rambling here - but does this make sense?
peace,
robyn


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Help me understand more.

Hi Shami! I'll do the best I can to offer what information I have. If you are truly interested in exploring CL more deeply, and getting these wonderful question answered by more than just me, then I would highly recommend becoming a member of the yahoo group. While shifting to a CL lifestyle has definitely created a harmony within my relationships that I never knew could exist, there are folks much more experienced and versed in ways to bring CL in. It is a very compassionate and supportive group of people, and I have found so much wisdom and so many ideas there!

Quote:

I went on the consensual living website and the 3 principles of CL are equality, trust, and self determination.

I have trouble with the equality and self determination for the young children. Yes, they are equal in that they deserve to be heard, and respected. Where they aren't equal in my eyes is that they don't have the maturity to decide everything for themselves.
Before I jump in here, I'd like to state that everything I write here is *my* experience with CL. It really does look different for everyone. While those who live a CL lifestyle may all share similar values and principles, CL takes into account the uniqueness of individuals and situations. It accounts for each person being on their own journey, and thus, has different needs.

The first part of CL for many people is a shift in energy, in thinking, in paradigm. For me, it was the hardest part. I had to let go of *everything* I had *learned* from (read: been ingrained with by) my parents, by our culture, by other parents. I had to really explore my thought processes, and determine what I actually *felt* as opposed to what I *thought* was 'right'. I do not look at things as so black and white any more. No right or wrong, just what *is*. I find it challenging to articulate these concepts, which is why I direct people to the yahoo group...

Part of this paradigm shift happened through doing 'The Work' (Byron Katie). A lot of people are not interested in doing 'The Work', and that is fine. For me, doing 'The Work' was *essential* in moving forward with CL.

I don't think of my children as 'un-equal' based on maturity level. I think maturity and equality are completely different.

I think there is a misconception that CL is permissive parenting under the guise of CL. Living consensually is not a parenting style. There are not rules, but rather principles that apply to all aspects of life. *Every* person involved is considered valuable, with valid thoughts, feelings and needs. And those are taken seriously, regardless of age. With CL, the search for mutually agreeable solutions is something that is done together, in co-operation, rather than one authority-figure making decisions for one or more members of the group to best suit his/her needs, or even what s/he *thinks* the needs of the group are.

Quote:

How do children raised under the CL philosophy have any self discipline? I feel like I need to teach them to wash when they are dirty, brush their teeth, eat nutritious foods, pick up their toys, and on and on. If I make all of these things optional and they can do it on their own time because 'they know what is best for their body' how will they become self disciplined adults?
I have come to the realization that while I may know what's best for me (and do I really?) I may not know what is best for another being, young child or no. Yes, I have lots of experience to share. I have insight and wisdom I have gained throughout my life that I choose to share with my children. However, I have found that when I try to make choices for my children, when they are not a part of the process and problem-solving, I essentially strip the experience away from them, and take away opportunity for interanalization and growth.

I do not coerce or force my kids to do things...not to clean up, not to brush their teeth, not to go to sleep at a certain time. The food one was hard for me, but upon letting go, I have found a place of peace and harmony that has been simply beautiful. The question about self-discipline questions brought a smile to my face.

How would a child raised consensually have self-discipline? Well, first, what I hear from you is that you are concerned with how your child will 'turn out'. What will they be like as grown-ups? I have let go of this type of thinking. I *trust*. I *trust* that their journeys will take them wherever they need to go. I *trust* their process, just as I *turst* my own.

I don't know what will happen as they grow up, and I don't plan to waste my time worrying about it. When I spend time worrying about every decision I make, and how it will affect them when they are older, I end up being totally out of touch with my kids, with the situation, with the present moment. I wind up debating in my head whether or not the kids 'should' or 'shouldn't' have ice cream. My kids see me doing this. It serves to sever the connection, rather than bring joy and harmony. If I have a thought about why *I* don't think ice cream for breakfast is a good idea, I will share it. Ultimately, the choice is up to them.

Self-discipline...I trust my children. I share my journey and experience with them. I answer their questions, explore concepts and ideas, and work through their processes and challenges *with* them. I don't ultimately decide for them. I do not listen to them and 'hear' what they have to say, but then say that *I* have the final decision...to me, that completely invalidates the decision. I don't think another person can *make* another have self-discipline. I think that is something one can do for themselves. If my children make their own decisions, learn from their own experience, then all will be well.

Again, when someone is pushed, they are bound to push back. I always thought my young daughter was rebellious (at age 3? 4?). Once I stopped forcing and pushing, our relationship is built on unconditional love, support, and trust. We now both listen to one another, and I see her not only considering the needs of her family members more and more, but friends too. Her play has changed because she is now ready to problem-solve *with* her friends, rather than hit them and melt down because she wasn't getting her way.

My parents *forced* me to eat certain foods, to clean my room, to go to bed at a certain time, to do my homework, etc. I railed against all of it. Now, I have absolutely *no* self-discipline...because it always came from outside of myself. Arbitrary rewards and punishments served to take away my experience, to take away the chance to learn and grow. A child will learn SD by learning what works and what doesn't for *herself*. How can she learn how her body feels after eating too much ice cream if she has never experienced that feeling? How will a child learn to trust her own internal rhythms and go to bed when she is actually tired, if she is forced to *sleep* at an arbitrary time when she's not tired?

Quote:

Re: the job/employee issue. I see your point (I don't remember who made the point) that the relationship is consensual. My fear is that my kid will grow up to think that a job is an option and she can quit whenever she doesn't like it anymore. Sometimes you have to keep a yucky job to pay the bills until you can work something else out.
First of all, when I make decisions based on fear, I am not being present, and I am not in tune with my child or the situation at hand. I am now dealing with a hypothetical future situation that may or may not happen. Where is the joy in that? Where is the connection?

And so what if your kid grows up and thinks it is an option to quit a job whenever she wants? Is it up to *you* to decide what your kid thinks? Maybe once she is finally set free from someone else's thoughts about what is 'right' and 'wrong', she can decide for herself what works for *her*, and what doesn't. And I don't find that sometimes you *have* to keep a yucky jon to pay the bills...that is a choice. There are many other options, but many are probably way outside of the box. Perhaps they are not clear, perhaps they seem impossible to you.

The whole point is that the possibilities are endless. There is *always* a choice. Yes, there are consequences (I am not talking about punishments or imposed consequences). Many people do not pay their taxes because they don't feel it is 'right'. The consequences are many...they may get audited, they may have to pay back-taxes, their wages may be garnished, they may go to jail. They still *choose* not to pay their taxes, and this is a decision that is right for them. They are aware of the consequences, and they will deal with it if and when the time comes. Do you think their parents agree with them? Maybe some do. Maybe some don't. Maybe some don't know about it in the first place. Either way, they made their own decision.

Quote:

Anyway, I love this philosophy...to a point. Or maybe I love it in my adult relationships. I do my best to be this way with my husband...no expectations just requests. I just can't wrap my mind around letting my kid decide EVERYTHING.
I find this really interesting. It is in my relationship with Dh that I have the toughest time with!

CL is not about *letting* kids decide everything. First of all, there is no *letting*, because they are autonomous individuals on their own journey. By *letting* them do anything, they are still under your *control*. I do not want to control my children. The other thing is, no one *decides* everything. Consensus is such that people work together to find mutually agreeable solutions.

We went to a part a few weeks ago. People were eating foods I wouldn't have normally wanted my kids to eat. I completely let go. I did not force them to eat veggies and protein *before* they had the chocolate like many of the other parents were doing. (I totally related to why they were doing this. I do not judge these parents, because they were doing what was right for them, at that moment). My kids came to me about the chocolate and marshmallows (ew), and asked what I thought about it. They asked what the marshmallows even were. I reminded them to just listen to their bodies. Dd has an allergy to chocolate, although she likes it. She had a small piece and that was it. I didn't say 'you're allergic, you can't have any.' She chose to eat enough that satisfied her sweet tooth, yet that her body could handle. She roasted three marshmallows. Ds had 2 and chose no chocolate. I didn't think about how this moment was going to affect them as adults. I didn't worry that there might be a tummy-ache later. I didn't force them to eat 'real' food before they had that stuff. I simply backed off.

On the way home, Dd asked what was in the marshmallows. I told her. She said 'ew, gross!' She said they sure tasted good. I said 'yeah, kind of funny how something so unhealthy for you can taste so yummy, huh?' She said 'yeah...I just don't want to have any more of those for a long time.' Then she said 'how about we make a fruit and yogurt smoothie when we get home.'

She was in a space where she was able to listen to her body, and decided what was best for it. She ate little chocolate, a couple of marshmallows, then felt what all that synthetic stuff was doing inside her body, and needed to balance it out...fresh bananas, strawberries, whole milk yogurt, lemon juice, flax meal....what a healthy choice! I'm so glad I trusted her...in doing so, she learned to listen to and trust her body. I don't think it is up to me to know what her body can handle....only she will know that. Self-discipline.

Quote:

I picture her all grown up with ratting hair and decaying teeth, homeless and dumpster diving because she just quit her 99th job since the demands were too much and the boss' breath stank.
First of all...so what? She will still be your daughter. She will be living her own life. Perhaps this is a part of her journey that needs to happen. Again, it is a what if scenario, and I try to stay away from those. Why bring that kind of energy in? I think when kids feel validated, their voices are heard, they are unconditionally loved, and they are supported, and they have people in their lives who model healthy lifestyle and sound principles, then there is nothing to worry about. I have been trying lately to focus more on joy and connection rather than desired outcomes. I want my kids to be who they are, not who *I* want them to be. That is unfair to them, and sets them up for failure in my eyes.

By the way, my husband slept over after our first date (I picked him up hitchhiking that day) and we have been together ever since...I have dreadlocks (ratty hair) and I go to the transfer station (read: the 'dump') to pick up used items that I have a use for....it's called re-using and it is one of the many gifts I give to the Earth...keeping it out of the landfill (it is also free). For the first 4.5 years of my motherhood journey, I chose not to work, even though we were piss-poor, because I knew it was important to be with my kids. In the past, I have quit several jobs based on my principles. I have now chosen to work from home both for a local artisan, and I make my own crafts to sell.

Judgements and expectations cloud our vision of reality.

*If everything in life is optional in the formative years, what kind of adult does this produce?*

I am not worried about production. I am a mother. I want to be *with* my children, experiencing joy and harmony, where all people are considered, are seen as equal, valuable, and are supported. I trust that their journeys will take them wherever they need to go, and I will always be here to love them unconditionally, share my insight with them, and support them when needed.

Quote:

Anyone raise kids with CL philosophy and now they are adults?
TIA...enjoying this thread








Yes, on the yahoo list you will find people who have grown children. I would consider that the end product is not what a lot of people on the list are working *towards*. It is more working *with*, in the present moment. But I won't speak for others. This is *my* view, it is what works for me, right now.

Hope this helps...visit the list if you are interested in exploring more!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living

Love.....







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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

See the way I see it, CL is MORE likely to give you an adult who is completely responsible for themselves. Too many people I know IRL have a tendency to blame someone else for their problems. (Boss, partner, parents, whoever). And I think it has to do with being "forced" to do things as a child and having someone convenient to blame.

I think that if from an early age you have been encouraged to make your own choices (with guidance that you sought or were offered) then I think that you will quickly realize that the "consequences" of your actions are due entirely to your own decisions - good or bad.

I love your image of the dirty dumpster diving girl - so funny! - but I just don't see that being a natural outcome of CL...If anything I think someone who is raised CL would be MORE sensitive to the consequences of their decisions, not less.

Quote:

I think the key issue is really the guidance issue. For me, I see very young children as needing lots of "guidance" in the sense of us providing them with alternatives, helping them articulate their needs, etc Because they just can't do it yet on their own - or at least not as fully as an adult. But I'm not to sure about coerced guidance....there are areas where I still do that (note: hairbrushing) but I hope to relinquish that as soon as we can find a solution that makes us both happy.

I think it's the consensual part that is important - it's not about "do what you want" - it's about "how do you get what you want while respecting others?" What's the MUTUALLY agreeable solution...As the mom, I'm part of the equation naturally...

....just rambling here - but does this make sense?
peace,
robyn
Robyn, this is very clear and makes a lot of sense to me! I like the way you articulated what CL is for you. I hold very similar values as what you have written here!

My dd had the same deal with the hair. She likes to feel the wind in her hair. Did not like to have it brushed. She had dreads for awhile. She got annoyed by hair in her face, but didn't want to wear it tied back.

One day, her dad and little bro shaved their heads. She wanted to do it too, so she did. *BEST* decision of her life. She loves having short hair...she can feel the breeze without hair in her face. She doesn't have to tie it back...although now she does like to put barrettes in it from time to time. She made the decision, she was very happy with it, it doesn't bother her when people call her a boy or mistake her for her brother, and it *feels* really good to her. Is this what *I* would have chosen for her? No. She is herself...and no one else. She made the choice, after we all talked about our concerns...

There are always choices. We may completely disagree, but that doesn't mean we have the right to take that choice away.

Blessings!







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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I can quote but its long lol....

The poster above has reminded me of things I constantly need to remind myself. Mostly - living for *now and not then *when and *then in life.

I just had a thought so I wanted to put this down.

Our society focuses so much on 'tomorrow' I feel.
I find it interresting that a lot of the 'parenting' techniques that are constantly throw at you in the 'mainstream' society focus so much on how our children are going to 'turn out' in the end from it all....yet, the techniques in practice actually only focus on the there and now with a child. From time outs to use praise to manipulate our children into doing something we want them to do as well as the use of punishments, etc... Whilst CL doesnt focus on the future our children may have (as the poster above has expressed), it does focus on the here and now...yet I feel it also is the best way to go to provide for our children a healthy future.

I need to remind myself to live for the now more - and not get so hung up on the what may be and the possible future of my son. Though this is more my nature, my virgo side, my organises self, my OCD... I didnt choose to live consensually because I am raising my son for his future. I just sort of got there. Though it is very important to me to know that I am raising him as best as I can to provide an emotionally healthy future for him.

In some ways I feel it was easy for me. My own 'crappy' childhood. My own grasping at some control over my own life that led me to belief that I didnt want my DS to have the childhood I had...why...and how can I do it differently, to my understanding of the simple fact I can not stand someone trying to control me added to the connection I have with my DS and never wanting to force him or coerce him... just wanting to live in peace and harmony...those words have been used many times in this thread and really, that is what it is its so wonderful...just living consenually.

It is hard though I feel. Its deffinatly something that doesnt always come naturally. I find at the moment, its hard for me as I have a pre-verbal child though his speech is deffinatly improving - its sometimes hard to see how we can come to something consensually but there is more to understaning my DS than him just using words for me to listen.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
My dd had the same deal with the hair. She likes to feel the wind in her hair. Did not like to have it brushed. She had dreads for awhile. She got annoyed by hair in her face, but didn't want to wear it tied back.

One day, her dad and little bro shaved their heads. She wanted to do it too, so she did. *BEST* decision of her life.


Oooo thanks for the ideas....I had already thought of suggesting the dreadlock route but it is nice for her to have a choice. Maybe I'll sit down with her this week and try to explain what the options might be for her...not sure she'll "get it" with her language delay, but she always surprises me with what she DOES understand....and she does better when given two or three options to choose between....she might like having it super duper short....hmmmm....and I think we will both be happier









eta: I just realized that sometimes its so easy to get locked into the idea that it's "easier" to just force a child to do something than it is to really sit down and hammer out a solution...but then the forcing is this ongoing, low-level struggle that detracts from our relationship. It would be better for me to just spend the quality time, really thinking through the options, discussing them with DD and coming up with a mutually agreeable solution ONCE, then we can move on.....just thinking out loud.









peace,
robyn


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

I've really enjoyed reading these posts.

Thanks, especially to moutainskymama.

A lot of what you wrote struck a chord with me. I've been trying to let go of a lot of anger and resentment in my adult relationships by trying to really internalize (rather than just acknowledge intellectually) that everyone is on his/her own journey and that I can't control what they're doing or how they've chosen to make that journey.

Yet I've never viewed my own DS or our relationship from that angle. I do get caught up in "how he'll turn out" even though I know with ever fiber of my being that I'll love him no matter what. You've given me a lot of food for thought.


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## Shami (Oct 9, 2007)

Wow...thank you Mountain and Hippie. Things are becoming more clear, but it is going to take a while to digest. I am definitely heading over to the yahoo group.
Let's see if I can do this quote thing... Nope, I'll just do copy paste.

Mountain "However, I have found that when I try to make choices for my children, when they are not a part of the process and problem-solving, I essentially strip the experience away from them, and take away opportunity for interanalization and growth."

Besides needing my entire thought processes rewired, this is what I am looking for in raising my kid. I too was forced to make my bed, etc. Now I never make my bed. I am very messy by nature. However, I strive to pick up my things because I like living in a less messy environment, not because my mom made it a huge ordeal. So, yeah, I think you're right, self discipline comes through your own experiences. Something internal needs to happen before the action occurs.

I haven't heard you speak of modeling. Would you say this is the majority of 'guiding' your children, along with the the problem solving skills?

Re: the matter of what kind of kid will I produce.

I view my child as a gift from God given to me to love, to nurture, to meet needs, to discipline, to enjoy life and to simply be with her. As such, she has been entrusted to me and the way she 'turns out' is important because I don't want her to suffer like I did. Ok, I know, I know, her journey is hers and mine is mine, but I'm a mom. I don't want her to go through what I went through, using drugs to numb myself, cockroach infested houses, poor, and making bad choices by the dozen. So, on one hand she came from God and it is His job to care for her, on the other hand I feel responsible. I don't know how to let the feeling of responsibility go. You mention 'the Work'. I'll check that out.

Mountain "Judgements and expectations cloud our vision of reality."

So true... thank you for pointing out my judgementalness. I hate it








when I do that! I like the way dreds (sp?) look and I have picked up a couch or two on the side of the road, so what am I worried about??!!! When it's my own kid I want her to have the best because I don't want her to suffer. This is MY problem, huh?

Hippie your post made a lot of sense. I love reading others experiences with this philosophy. It's helping me a great deal.

Ann glad to hear your thoughts 'out loud'. I really believe in living in the here and now, but it's so difficult to practice at times!

Gotta run...hoping to hear more from you all and others.


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:

but it is going to take a while to digest.
This is an on-going process. I am still chewing and deciding what to swallow and what to spit out







Like I mentioned in an earlier post, while there are principles that many CLers value, it will look different for everyone...even within the same family. Also important to remember is that the journey is dynamic, not static...so something that worked for our family last month (or even last week) may not work right *now*. The point is to do what *feels* good and works best *in the moment*. That does not mean just following our impulses without a second thought. It means working together to find what will work for everyone. I have found that my children actually come up with many more ideas (and usually better ones!) than I do, now that we have been practicing this way of living.

Quote:

I haven't heard you speak of modeling. Would you say this is the majority of 'guiding' your children, along with the the problem solving skills?
This is hard to answer. Basically, I do what I *feel* is best for *me*, while also considering the needs of others. This does not mean I attempt to be super-mom or some kind of saint or martyr...I take *my* needs into consideration as well. There are many things I value: kindness, helpfulness, eating organic, supporting local farmers and businesses, spending a lot of time outside, etc. I suppose because I do these things, I am modelling for my children, though I don't (read: I try not to) expect that these will be their values. I am also human...when I am feeling lost or frustrated on my mother-journey, I slip back into what was comfortable for so long, which is coercion and a more authoritarian style.

However, I am learning that judging myself is just as dangerous as judging others...and it actually begins with me. We all project and reflect...we project our thoughts and feelings onto the world around us, and what we put out is reflected back to us. So if I want to see kindness, I certainly need to start with *me*. If I want to see helping, then I need to help.

I don't *expect* help (as in, with housework). I will ask for help when I feel I need it, I will explaing why I'd like to have help, I might talk about how I feel when I don't have help, I might find ways to make it a game...ultimately, if the kids don't want to help because they are busy doing something else, or because they just don't feel like it...I honor that choice. I think about the times when I am busy doing something and the kids ask for help, and I tell them not right now because I'm busy. Well, I think they deserve the same respect of what they are doing. While in my intellectual adult mind it may not be a big deal to me, that is their reality right *now*, so it is important to them, you know? This is hard for a lot of people because they feel that kids help make messes, kids should help clean them up...But as I also mentioned, I try to let go of 'shoulds'.

As far as guiding goes, I suppose I see it more as we are walking together...sure, sometimes I may lead the way when the kids are feeling uncomfortable with the 'unkown' that lies ahead...more often, I would say they are leading the way...carving their own paths, living their own truths. They are guided by their spirit, by their Truth...I am simply there to help, support, love, share in their journey. I am there to guide if that is what they need. Mostly, I would say we are walking together...sharing in each other's journey. Working within the context of each other.

Quote:

I view my child as a gift from God given to me to love, to nurture, to meet needs, to discipline, to enjoy life and to simply be with her. As such, she has been entrusted to me and the way she 'turns out' is important because I don't want her to suffer like I did
I believe that my child *is* spirit...each 'part' of her is a manifestation of her spirit. I believe I was chosen, by spirit, by *her* to be her mother, to walk her path with her. I also believe that *my* spirit chose her to walk my path with me. We are entrusted to ourselves, to each other. I don't feel I was chosen as her mother to walk her journey *for* her, but to be a part of her experience, to share. What is most important, to *me*, is connection, support, unconditional love. I trust that her journey will take her where she needs to go...many of her lessons may be the same as many of mine...many may not. At any rate, the more I focus on desired outcomes and expectation, I am taking the focus away from love and connection, and that is becoming what is most important to me...it is also what seems to bring the most joy into our lives....

I shared this with you not because I wanted to change your opinion...but just to show you how different people have different values and beliefs, and while moving into a CL lifestyle may challenge many of those beliefs...I think those that are really your core *Truth* are the ones that will stick with you, and the ones that were created by culture, but society, by parenting styles, by the mainstream, by religion, whatever, are the ones that will melt away to reveal simply what *is*.

Quote:

thank you for pointing out my judgementalness. I hate it
when I do that! I like the way dreds (sp?) look and I have picked up a couch or two on the side of the road, so what am I worried about??!!! When it's my own kid I want her to have the best because I don't want her to suffer. This is MY problem, huh?
By no means was I pointing out anything...just sharing my Truth, my experience.

Exactly, what *are* you worried about? I think that the thoughts/stereotypes we attach to life, and the stories we tell ourselves really frame how we think about and interact with the world (thank you Byron Katie!). Of course, no one wants their children to suffer...But if we took away their pain, would we also then take away their joy? I think there is a way to offer empathy and support without trying to 'fix' the child or try to create a certain outcome for them...this means that we trust the innate wisdom they brought into the world with them, that we trust that they will learn what works for them, and what doesn't, and when they make a choice that brings about 'negative' consequences, we are there to *respond* with love, support, empathize, validation, and help pick up the pieces...not scold, not react out of anger, belittle, say 'I told you so', or other such things, that server to sever relationships, rather then establish connection and build trust.

I don't think it is your 'problem' perse, but I do believe that, yes, your feelings are *yours*...not your child's. I think it is important to own our feelings as ours...rather than projecting them onto others, and then blaming and judging. Something that you may get very angry about, your child may let roll off of her without a second thought. Something that doesn't bother you in the least, may drive your child absolutely nuts. She is her own unique person, experiencing life only as *she* can...who are we to tell her how she *should* feel, or what is *right* for her?

Quote:

I've really enjoyed reading these posts.

Thanks, especially to moutainskymama.

A lot of what you wrote struck a chord with me. I've been trying to let go of a lot of anger and resentment in my adult relationships by trying to really internalize (rather than just acknowledge intellectually) that everyone is on his/her own journey and that I can't control what they're doing or how they've chosen to make that journey.

Yet I've never viewed my own DS or our relationship from that angle. I do get caught up in "how he'll turn out" even though I know with ever fiber of my being that I'll love him no matter what. You've given me a lot of food for thought.
Darius...thank you for your kind words...I think that while the first step may be intellectual in nature...it doesn't really sink in, deep within our beings (within every 'fiber'), until we are able to internalize it through practice. Sure...it is hard at first. I (and my family) experieced a lot of frustration when I first chose to shift my energy in this direction.

And for anyone who may wonder, Dh is not totally on board with this. He is slowly (much more so than I...I just kind of dove in head first) exploring. But as is the nature of CL, it is not my place to tell him how to parent, or even to agree. I do not believe that I should go with what he says when I don't find it to resonate with my truth, just so the kids see a 'united front'. I think to show my kids that I will do the opposite of what I believe in my heart, as Truth, is showing them that I don't trust myself, that I won't stand up for what I believe, that what I believe doesn't matter.

However, we do take each other's opinions into consideration, we agree to disagree, we have, more and more, been finding mutually agreeable solutions. There are times when there is intense conflict, and we work through the process...but I am finding the more skilled I become at this, the more I am able to apply the same values to him as I do to the kids...He knows how I feel about certain things, but that doesn't mean he is going to choose something different than what he wants, because I don't agree with it. It is getting easier and easier. What, at first felt somewhat contrived and superficial, now feels more natural and joyful.

Quote:

Oooo thanks for the ideas....I had already thought of suggesting the dreadlock route but it is nice for her to have a choice. Maybe I'll sit down with her this week and try to explain what the options might be for her...not sure she'll "get it" with her language delay, but she always surprises me with what she DOES understand....and she does better when given two or three options to choose between....she might like having it super duper short....hmmmm....and I think we will both be happier
The other thing I think is important to remember is to involve *her* in the process. If it's just you laying down the options, you may be missing what *she* is feeling/thinking/needing. 'Giving' choices has a very different energy to me than 'Brainstorming' choices. In my opinion, she should come up with the ideas too...then together you can discuss the ideas, and work out which one would feel good to her.

Quote:

eta: I just realized that sometimes its so easy to get locked into the idea that it's "easier" to just force a child to do something than it is to really sit down and hammer out a solution...but then the forcing is this ongoing, low-level struggle that detracts from our relationship. It would be better for me to just spend the quality time, really thinking through the options, discussing them with DD and coming up with a mutually agreeable solution ONCE, then we can move on.....just thinking out loud.
Yes...sometimes force is much easier...for the parent. I think the child is having a completely different experience, however. What I try to do is consider the child's perspective. While I may think it's time to leave somewhere, and to get to the next spot, I force ds into his car seat. I might be okay with that, I get what I want...but what about ds? What does this look like and feel like to him? Is there connection or division going on? Do I really *need* to go? Can I set up my day in a way that the kids are able to do what they want as long as they want to sometimes? Am I willing to give a little?

These are all questions I ask myself regularly. (And there are many more to be sure). Transitioning into a consensual way of life required me to examine not only my principles and core values (which are *huge*), but also my thoughts and feelings about every day things...Do I really *need* to 'go right now'? Why can't I just take the time for ds to stop and explore everything he sees? What is my rush? Of course, we unschool, so this makes it a heck of a lot easier (imo). But that does not mean you have to unschool to live consensually. Many folks on the CL list have kids who unschool *and* kids who go to school...because they choose to. Like I said...looks different for everyone!









I'm really enjoying this discussion and exploration! Thanks for joining me!









Love, love, love!







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## bright_eyes (Dec 7, 2007)

I am fascinated by all this but having a hard time digesting all of it at the same time. I can think of a million and one sitations where I would wonder what the CL way of doing things would be. Especially since I have a toddler, so we can't exactly negotiate things.

Today for example, we were out all morning and got home and he was sooooo tired. I carried him to our door and immediately set him down so I could find my keys in my purse. He took off towards the truck and telling me that he wanted to play outside. I opened the door, told him we could go later and went inside. He cried and cried, but as soon as I got him into our bed, laid down with him, he got excited about nursing and wanted to nurse. He was out within a 10 minutes.

So I thought about it and wondered what the CL way of dealing with this would have been. To listen to his desire to stay outside longer and play even though he was long over due for a nap? Because no matter how much longer we would have stayed outside, he would have cried about coming in, he would stay outside all day if we let him. And is the goal to not have your kids ever cry? Ds mostly cries when he can't have his own way. I am very flexible and try to gently let him know when we can't do things his way and then try to distract him with something else as soon as I can. But when things like today happen, I console him, let him cry all he needs to, and then we move on with our day.

Or what do you do when they refuse to wear a hat outside in the summer? Ds refuses to wear the hat I bought him for summer. I bought two new hats today so that I can give him a choice and hopefully that will get him more excited about wearing a hat, but what if he refuses to pick one and keep it on his head? It is way too hot here in the summers to not wear a hat. And we can't stay inside all summer.

How do you possibly do CL with toddlers? I did join the CL yahoo group and read the file on toddlers, but I still don't fully get it. He is not at an age where he can think about his needs and wants and the consequences of his choices. Should I just post my specific concerns on the group?


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## bright_eyes (Dec 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
I don't *expect* help (as in, with housework). I will ask for help when I feel I need it, I will explaing why I'd like to have help, I might talk about how I feel when I don't have help, I might find ways to make it a game...ultimately, if the kids don't want to help because they are busy doing something else, or because they just don't feel like it...I honor that choice. I think about the times when I am busy doing something and the kids ask for help, and I tell them not right now because I'm busy. Well, I think they deserve the same respect of what they are doing. While in my intellectual adult mind it may not be a big deal to me, that is their reality right *now*, so it is important to them, you know? This is hard for a lot of people because they feel that kids help make messes, kids should help clean them up...But as I also mentioned, I try to let go of 'shoulds'.

Something that I struggle with is keeping my house clean. I was not expected to do chores around the house and I really wish that my parents had expected my to. I don't cook supper each night because I want to, I do it because I have a responsibility to take care of my family, and that involves providing meals for them. I don't wash my dishes because I want to, I do it because if I don't it makes cooking supper soooo much harder to do when there's no clean dishes. I don't do laundry because I want to, I do it because we need clean clothes to wear. So in a CL household, how do you teach responisibility? How do you teach kids that there is work to be done that has to be done at certain times, whether we want to or not. I would love to put off cooking supper or cleaning until I wanted to or felt like it but I can't. Okay, I recognize that I do have a choice, but the honest truth is that it would be a very bad decision to wait until I wanted to because I dislike cooking and doing the dishes and I almost always have to stop doing things that I would rather be doing instead in order to get those important things done. I am not planning on using force to get my kids to do chores but I am planning on somehow teaching them the importance of work and cleaning and so I will expect help around the house when they are old enough to do so. How can I fit these desires into CL?


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bright_eyes* 

Or what do you do when they refuse to wear a hat outside in the summer? Ds refuses to wear the hat I bought him for summer. I bought two new hats today so that I can give him a choice and hopefully that will get him more excited about wearing a hat, but what if he refuses to pick one and keep it on his head? It is way too hot here in the summers to not wear a hat. And we can't stay inside all summer.

I was that kid. In Taiwan, Houston, and now in southern California. My parents eventually just gave up. I wear sunscreen.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bright_eyes* 
... I don't cook supper each night because I want to, I do it because I have a responsibility to take care of my family, and that involves providing meals for them. I don't wash my dishes because I want to, I do it because if I don't it makes cooking supper soooo much harder to do when there's no clean dishes. I don't do laundry because I want to, I do it because we need clean clothes to wear. So in a CL household, how do you teach responisibility?

These are great examples, bright_eyes. Do note that you don't wash dishes or clothes because someone else is compelling or coercing you to do it, no one punishes you if you don't and no one rewards you if you do. You do it because the consequences of not make the less-than-pleasant tasks worth the hassle.

To flip the question, I wonder how children who are constantly compelled or externally motivated in much of what they do learn responsibility. I hear "wash the dishes or else you won't get to watch TV" "If you clean your room I'll give you a donut" etc. and also the more subtle variations on those themes. I worry that over time, the ability to see the natural outcome of each choice gets lost and decision gets made based on "what's going to happen _to me_ if I do/don't."

I think the #1 best way to teach responsibility is to model it. Children are pre-wired to want to get big and be like their parents. And even if it's not a straight-line path to get there, and sometimes washing dishes is met with resistance and the child opts out, in the big picture children like to help and learn what they live.

I think inviting children to help with everything parents do, giving them more responsibility than we often think to, involving them in the running of the house and letting them see the lessons in each banal example you posted all help children learn responsibility.

ETA: on the hat: since you said it's very hot where you are I'm guessing that you wear one? If not, be sure you do. That's my best tip for convincing toddlers to keep hats on: wear one yourself each and every time. Even if the "I want to be just like Mama" hasn't kicked in yet, it may pay off later. My favorite conversation last winter sounded like: "Mama...mittens?? Louisa mittens!! Louisa mittens!!" It doesn't work for every kid, (some probably really hate the way a hat or mittens feels), but I think it works for many.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
The other thing I think is important to remember is to involve *her* in the process. If it's just you laying down the options, you may be missing what *she* is feeling/thinking/needing. 'Giving' choices has a very different energy to me than 'Brainstorming' choices. In my opinion, she should come up with the ideas too...then together you can discuss the ideas, and work out which one would feel good to her.

Yes! This has been so true for my dd and me.

I love reading your posts on the CL Yahoo group. I'm glad you're here, too!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

I think inviting children to help with everything parents do, giving them more responsibility than we often think to, involving them in the running of the house and letting them see the lessons in each banal example you posted all help children learn responsibility.
Yep. And recognizing and then sending the message in *ourselves* that it really is a choice. I really like a clean house. I really don't like to clean.







So sometimes my want to put off cleaning is greater than my want to have a clean house. And then my house gets icky and I get annoyed by it and my want to clean gets greater than my want to NOT clean.

But recognizing that I have a choice to do it or not, or buy a one-way ticket to the Bahamas and ditch the whole thing are actual choices that many people make give me a lot of freedom.

So I work on modelling that for my kids and giving them the same freedom.

Great thread!


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## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

This is a really interesting thread for me. I do not practice consensual living, but we do have a relatively consensual home. We try to say "yes" as much as possible, and instead of "no" we try to work out an agreement with our kids ("i.e. it doesn't work for me for you to stay home from school today, but you can stay home on Wednesday next week"). But it seems that most of the posters on this thread who are practicing CL (or striving towards it) only have one kid, or one kid and a baby. I wonder how CL works in families with more children? My 5YO twins often have very different ideas about what they'd like to do, and it's just a lot of opinions to bring into the mix.

I had one run-in with a "CL" family that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about the whole philosophy. A mom and her 4 YO were at our house for a potluck party (with several other families) and the 4 YO didn't want any of the food that was out for the party. So the mom helped him look through our fridge to find something else (without asking me first), and then he insisted on eating all of our peaches (which I had been saving for a pie). The mom said, "well, he really feels like he needs to eat them now, and I want to honor his feelings." Then, he told his mom that he wanted to bring one of my kids' toys home, and so she asked if he could. My sons said, "no," and then the 4YO had a huge fit. Was this just a bad example of a CL situation? It really didn't seem all that consensual, it seemed like the 4YO was in charge and his mom was following his every command.

Lex


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lexbeach* 
This is a really interesting thread for me. I do not practice consensual living, but we do have a relatively consensual home. We try to say "yes" as much as possible, and instead of "no" we try to work out an agreement with our kids ("i.e. it doesn't work for me for you to stay home from school today, but you can stay home on Wednesday next week"). But it seems that most of the posters on this thread who are practicing CL (or striving towards it) only have one kid, or one kid and a baby. I wonder how CL works in families with more children? My 5YO twins often have very different ideas about what they'd like to do, and it's just a lot of opinions to bring into the mix.


We're a lot like you in how we approach things. And I was wondering this, as well. I have one child, a DS who is 5.5. He is very "easy." I also have a great DH and we live a few doors down from DS' best friend. Best friend is part of a lovely family who have become good friends and are happy to take DS for a bit if something comes up.

All this means that, if DS, for example, doesn't want to go to the store, he can stay home with one of us or, if we both need to go out, DS can play with best friend for a while. Since he's relatively easy-going, we generally don't have a lot of conflict.

But I could imagine with more children thrown in, or a single parent, or not living near or in a supportive community, it could be much harder. I realize that there are no absolutes, and that every situation has to be approached uniquely, but I'd be interested to hear from CL families who have multiple kids and/or don't live near or in a supportive community.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I think I might be somewhere in the middle - as usual I don't fit in categories









We do a lot of brainstorming and discussion of what's safe and not, what's healthy or not, and honestly, if dd wants a jelly bean before lunch (like today) I give it to her and then give her lunch after (which we discuss before I do it). It seems like part of the word "consensual" would include telling the child of appointments and whatever with enough time before hand that they can get used to the idea. I mean, I hate when someone just pops and appointment on me at the last minute ("oh, by the way, you have a chiropractic appointment today" "umm, what??"), so things like that I try and make clear beforehand, and usually dd "gets" that because it's something w/a specified time, we have to go then, and then we can go do something fun (this is discussed at length - haha... w/my 2 year old, it's a very repetitive discussion).

When we're at home, my kids are what I call "free range babies", which means they pretty much have the run of the house, although since my 9 mo.old has been playing in the toilet (ew!), I've been keeping the bathroom door closed. DD just asks if she wants to go in (she can't reach the handle, yet).

I've found DD is really responsive to explanations lately (or she'll ask why and then sometimes disagree, but she sometimes has a good reason!), though, so that's been helping me be less controlling than I may have been before. I still tried to respect her before though.

The definition that was in a post on the first page resonates with me, but I'm not too sure that I'm doing what other CL's are doing... For instance, I don't feel that I have to give up "me" when dd wants to do something... I'm happy to tell her "I'll help you as soon as I'm done with X" rather than just jump up and help. I think that's reasonable, and she's told me the same thing before (me: ok, come get in your seat, it's dinner time! her: no, I'm coloring, I'll eat dinner later) and I respect that, because it's completely reasonable to let her finish (and so unreasonable not to!), kwim?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lexbeach* 
But it seems that most of the posters on this thread who are practicing CL (or striving towards it) only have one kid, or one kid and a baby. I wonder how CL works in families with more children? My 5YO twins often have very different ideas about what they'd like to do, and it's just a lot of opinions to bring into the mix.

I have a 6 yr. old and a 3 yr. old. It just gets easier, it seems, as they get used to the process of talking, compromising, finding solutions, taking turns in meeting everyone's needs, etc. Sometimes I'll remind them, "Hey, your brother wants to do xyz, yesterday he did your abc, so let's make sure we're balancing things out, right?" And they just get used to coming up with ideas in the moment that will work for everyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lexbeach* 
I had one run-in with a "CL" family that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about the whole philosophy. A mom and her 4 YO were at our house for a potluck party (with several other families) and the 4 YO didn't want any of the food that was out for the party. So the mom helped him look through our fridge to find something else (without asking me first), and then he insisted on eating all of our peaches (which I had been saving for a pie). The mom said, "well, he really feels like he needs to eat them now, and I want to honor his feelings." Then, he told his mom that he wanted to bring one of my kids' toys home, and so she asked if he could. My sons said, "no," and then the 4YO had a huge fit. Was this just a bad example of a CL situation? It really didn't seem all that consensual, it seemed like the 4YO was in charge and his mom was following his every command.

Holy cow. That would SOO not be OK with me. It's not consensual b/c YOU didn't consent to it. Just b/c some folks in the situation find something that works for them doesn't mean that they just do whatever at someone else's expense.

I can't imagine not being able to explain to either of my kids that we ABSOLUTELY would need to ask for alternate food and simply explaining that the peaches were needed for another dish later. Even if they were upset and crying about that, it would be off the table for discussion (I mean, obviously, I would validate their desire for the peaches and discuss their feelings about not having those peaches....but, it would no longer be a viable solution to the problem of not liking the potluck food.) And to go back even further, I can't imagine not bringing something my kids would like (we have severe food allergies so we travel with food at all times), but I think if you know you've got a kid who is not into lots of different or new foods then you plan for that. You don't make that the problem of your host. I'd leave the potluck before it came to my kids (or anyone in my family) eating out of the host's cabinets. I don't think it's unreasonable to *inquire* if there's a box of crackers or something "kid friendly," but I would never expect it or be upset if the host said no or ask for a separate meal to be made (if the host was truly OK with whipping something up or opening up his/her kitchen that's one thing....but I would NEVER expect that.).

Again, the key point is that the solutions work for ALL parties.

Just b/c my kids wanted to jump on the mattresses at a mattress store doesn't mean that we just do that. The store is not consenting to that. So we need to find some other avenue to satisfy the kids' desire to jump. But, I wouldn't just grab my kids and run home so they could jump on our mattresses either. We'd talk about how when we finished at the mattress store we could go home and jump on our mattresses. And how the mattresses at the store don't belong to us. And so on. And b/c my kids are used to me helping them get what they want, they trust that I'm going to make it happen and they're willing to wait for me to finish at the store. Does that make sense?


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
The definition that was in a post on the first page resonates with me, but I'm not too sure that I'm doing what other CL's are doing... For instance, I don't feel that I have to give up "me" when dd wants to do something... I'm happy to tell her "I'll help you as soon as I'm done with X" rather than just jump up and help. I think that's reasonable, and she's told me the same thing before (me: ok, come get in your seat, it's dinner time! her: no, I'm coloring, I'll eat dinner later) and I respect that, because it's completely reasonable to let her finish (and so unreasonable not to!), kwim?

I'm still learning about CL and trying to change my parenting into something that I feel good about and works for our whole family. The way I understand CL is that its most basic premise is that all parties involved look for mutually agreeable solutions. I don't feel like I have to give up my needs to meet my children's needs or wishes. At the same time, I recognize that I'm the adult so I'm better at waiting than my kids are. Also, just because they're little and their needs are more immediate, I may willingly choose to meet their needs before I meet mine. I think most parents just naturally do this.

Everything you wrote sounds really reasonable and peaceful to me!


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lexbeach* 
I had one run-in with a "CL" family that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth about the whole philosophy. A mom and her 4 YO were at our house for a potluck party (with several other families) and the 4 YO didn't want any of the food that was out for the party. So the mom helped him look through our fridge to find something else (without asking me first), and then he insisted on eating all of our peaches (which I had been saving for a pie). The mom said, "well, he really feels like he needs to eat them now, and I want to honor his feelings." Then, he told his mom that he wanted to bring one of my kids' toys home, and so she asked if he could. My sons said, "no," and then the 4YO had a huge fit. Was this just a bad example of a CL situation? It really didn't seem all that consensual, it seemed like the 4YO was in charge and his mom was following his every command.
Lex


Wow! What a great thread this has become...I didn't expect to come back to find so many wonderful questions and ideas!

I haven't had time to read through all the posts (though I did skim and there's much I'd like to respond to!), but this stuck out like a sore thumb.

I'm wondering what led you to believe this family was living consensually? People who practice consensus don't only take into account the needs and feelings of their own family members, but of *everyone* involved in situations. Consensus means that a solution is found for everyone, not just for one or two people.

It sounds to me like this mother was doing more of a permissive thing than anything even close to resembling consensual living. I would *never* dip into someone's fridge without asking first. I don't feel that is considerate or appropriate. Perhaps this mother called herself consensual, but it sounds to me like she may not have a very strong grasp on what CL really is...or that it does, in fact, extend outwards, it doesn't stop within one relationship.

I think it is important to honor our children' feelings...but honoring her child's feelings does not necessarily mean he is going to get exactly what he wants. With consensus, all parites feelings are valued and considered. It sounds like she wanted to honor her child's feelings, but didn't think about honoring your feelings (and who knows, perhaps she didn't even consider her own feelings). Kids running the show is not consensual. People working together to find mutually agreeable solutions *is* consensual.

I do have friends who, honestly, if they dove into my fridge because they were hungry, I wouldn't care...but still, they ask anyway. It is called common courtesy, and that is something I not only model for my kids, but also practice with them, talk with them about, and help them to practice that when they are having a hard time doing so.

My kids ask to borrow toys from other kids. Sometimes their friends say yes, sometimes no. Dd who is almost 6 pretty much accepts 'no'...sometimes there may be disappointment, but that's usually it. Ds has a hard time with hearing 'no'. What I do in that situation is validate his feelings of disappointment, and empathize with him. I would not try to convince the other kid to share, becaue I honor his feelings and needs as well as my own kids.

Oh, and someone mentioned people doing CL with only one kid...I have two...the older they get and the more CL *I* am, the more they are. Also, there are several people on the yahoo list with 5, 6, 7, 8+ kids...If you need specific examples of how to bring consensus into your life with multiple kids, I would suggest posting your specific concerns on the list.

And yes to the poster who wants to talk specifics...post your situation on the list, and I'm sure you will get several answers. Expect your current beliefs and values to be challenged in an empathic and supportive way...

Have a happy weekend!







:


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

_Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvysen
The definition that was in a post on the first page resonates with me, but I'm not too sure that I'm doing what other CL's are doing... For instance, I don't feel that I have to give up "me" when dd wants to do something... I'm happy to tell her "I'll help you as soon as I'm done with X" rather than just jump up and help. I think that's reasonable, and she's told me the same thing before (me: ok, come get in your seat, it's dinner time! her: no, I'm coloring, I'll eat dinner later) and I respect that, because it's completely reasonable to let her finish (and so unreasonable not to!), kwim?_

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riversong* 
I'm still learning about CL and trying to change my parenting into something that I feel good about and works for our whole family. The way I understand CL is that its most basic premise is that all parties involved look for mutually agreeable solutions. I don't feel like I have to give up my needs to meet my children's needs or wishes. At the same time, I recognize that I'm the adult so I'm better at waiting than my kids are. Also, just because they're little and their needs are more immediate, I may willingly choose to meet their needs before I meet mine. I think most parents just naturally do this.

Everything you wrote sounds really reasonable and peaceful to me!

Juvysen...I try to say this as much as possible, because sometimes it takes awhile for it to sink in...there are so many parenting books and *ways*, there is a lot of 'rules' and dogma surrounding those particular 'styles'. (This is my opinion, of course). Within consensus, there are no 'rules'. There are principles...for example, consider the feelings of others. There is no reward or punishment for doing or not doing this. It is simply what *is*...what we strive for, because it *feels* good to us and to others. There is no imposed consequence, but there may be a natural one that occurs if we choose to only consider our own feelings.

It sounds to me like you have found something that works for you and dd. It sounds like something I'm sure a lot of CL families are doing, and maybe a lot of them aren't. *I really try to stress that it will look different for everyone, there is no one 'right' way to do it!* The wonderful thing about CL that has resonated with me *so* much is that *my* needs *do* matter! Before I came to a more CL way of interacting, I martyred myself a lot. I thought I had to do what my kids wanted because it was my job to sacrifice for the sake of my children. Once I shifted into CL, I realized that my kids were never going to honor or respect me or their own selves if I didn't respect me, my own self. Mutually agreeable means it works for everyone....it does not mean the parent is always bending over backwards for their children.

And as riversong said, while she does not feel she *has* to put her kids first, she may willingly choose to. Honestly, I did not realize I had this option for the longest time! Now I know that I have several choices, and I try to do what works best. Sometimes it works best to meet my needs first, so that I can then support the kids in meeting their needs. Knowing that there are *always* choices has been really liberating for me. I feel much more free and joyful now, and I feel okay when I choose to do something for me before or instead of doing something for the kids. But now that I know it is up to me to *choose*, I don't feel put out and resentful like I had in the past, and I am really enjoying the openness and consideration my family and I are experiencing in our relationships.








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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I completely feel like I'm doing that. It does feel good to find consensus as much as possible, because we're all happier. I'm not to a point where I never take over (admittedly because I need to work on my patience, I think), but I'm getting there.... I think...


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I completely feel like I'm doing that. It does feel good to find consensus as much as possible, because we're all happier. I'm not to a point where I never take over (admittedly because I need to work on my patience, I think), but I'm getting there.... I think...

Jenna...First of all, I *love* your signature! So sweet!

It sounds like you are working hard to be the best mama you can be...in a way that feels good to you and to your family. I also hear that you are human, a work in progress, always open to new ideas and growth...How blessed your family is!









If we all did it right and perfect, how *real* would that be? How would our children learn to accept their human-ness, their flaws? All parts of ourselves are beautiful, because they simply *are*. I think the more open we can be with our children and those around us, the more the relationships bloom and thrive!








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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

We strive towards consensus in our home. I guess for me all the details (the parking lot, the sunscreen, the hygiene) come down to completely abandoning my preconceptions and putting everyone's needs on the table, including my own, and just working through them. It's not that ds has to wear a hat in the summer, it's that I have a need to feel that he is protected from the sun because I have fears of short-term and long-term consequences to his not doing so. What are those fears made of? What is the WORST that could happen? How can I manage my own activities to minimize the possibilities that I find the least appealing?

There is so much I can take apart in my own mind, in terms of my own reactions to things, and often my letting go of the idea that he has to do something because, well, he HAS to, and talking through my fears with him (he is 2), is sufficient to turn the whole thing around for both of us. Sometimes not.


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## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
I'm wondering what led you to believe this family was living consensually? People who practice consensus don't only take into account the needs and feelings of their own family members, but of *everyone* involved in situations. Consensus means that a solution is found for everyone, not just for one or two people.

It sounds to me like this mother was doing more of a permissive thing than anything even close to resembling consensual living. I would *never* dip into someone's fridge without asking first. I don't feel that is considerate or appropriate. Perhaps this mother called herself consensual, but it sounds to me like she may not have a very strong grasp on what CL really is...or that it does, in fact, extend outwards, it doesn't stop within one relationship.

The mom has told me about how she practices "Consensual Parenting". I put it in quotes, because I didn't know if what I was witness to actually was a good example of CL or not. I'm generally totally cool with people finding a snack for their kids in my house, but the way that this mom did it just rubbed me in the wrong way. It felt really awkward for me. I didn't want to have to be in the position to be saying no to her son--I thought that that should be her job. But she wasn't going to say no until she had exhausted all of the possible avenues to "yes" . . . which I can understand in the context of your own home, but didn't feel appropriate in someone else's home.

My other question is about health issues. How do those of you who practice CL approach issues about things like when to give antibiotics/motrin/etc. or when do go to the doctor/dentist/etc.? I know that if it were up to my kids, they'd be drinking motrin for breakfast everyday (it's pretty much the sugary-est thing they've ever had and they LOVE it. I do give it to them for ear aches, but lately they've been pretending that they have ear aches in order to get some). The other day I took my son to get a blood test because we're trying to figure out which foods he is sensitive/allergic to. He would have opted against the procedure, but I felt it was my decision to make as his mother, concerned about his health. Any thoughts?

Thanks for sharing so much!

Lex


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## mountainskymama (Jun 8, 2006)

lexbeach said:


> The mom has told me about how she practices "Consensual Parenting". I put it in quotes, because I didn't know if what I was witness to actually was a good example of CL or not. I'm generally totally cool with people finding a snack for their kids in my house, but the way that this mom did it just rubbed me in the wrong way. It felt really awkward for me. I didn't want to have to be in the position to be saying no to her son--I thought that that should be her job. But she wasn't going to say no until she had exhausted all of the possible avenues to "yes" . . . which I can understand in the context of your own home, but didn't feel appropriate in someone else's home.[QUOTE/]
> 
> Hi Lex! Yeah...Like I said, this sounds to me more like a mama who is working towards consensus in her home...I have noticed with my own shift into a more CL way of life that I had to swing Aaaalllllllllllll the way to the 'other' end of the spectrum before I realized that this was just as unhealthy for us as the more authoritarian, coercive way was....so it has been a practice in finding balance...the more I practice, the easier it gets. I truly treasure the yahoo group....I post general questions, entire thought processes, and specific situations I am stuck on, and I always receive such amazing support and ideas from folks who have been doing this for years...and also from folks like me who are new to the idea and thinking out loud.
> 
> ...


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:

We strive towards consensus in our home. I guess for me all the details (the parking lot, the sunscreen, the hygiene) come down to completely abandoning my preconceptions and putting everyone's needs on the table, including my own, and just working through them. It's not that ds has to wear a hat in the summer, it's that I have a need to feel that he is protected from the sun because I have fears of short-term and long-term consequences to his not doing so. What are those fears made of? What is the WORST that could happen? How can I manage my own activities to minimize the possibilities that I find the least appealing?

There is so much I can take apart in my own mind, in terms of my own reactions to things, and often my letting go of the idea that he has to do something because, well, he HAS to, and talking through my fears with him (he is 2), is sufficient to turn the whole thing around for both of us. Sometimes not.
I just wanted to quote that because it is something I could have written myself - my thoughts exactly and very well put!...it is how it working in our house now and the path we are on and yeah, as Juvysen has said herself...its my patience I have to struggle with more than anything!


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## NZmumof2 (Jun 22, 2006)

Just wanted to pop in and mention I've been reading this thread too. We don't practice CL but are moving more towards many aspects of it because it feels right and is easier than being a loggerheads with each other.

This week brainstorming some solutions to keeping our baby safe when the boys hold her worked really well. If I'd laid down rules I know the 4 yr old wouldn't have listened. Instead we talked about which bits of a baby might break easily, especially now she wiggles and rolls so much and agreed that it works best to sit on the carpeted floor to hold her so she can't falll far. This after two episodes of baby rolling off couch that were hair raising! I was right there, but not right there enough. It has been so hard to find ways to respect both the boys' need to be very close to their adored sister and her absolute need for personal safety (not to mention my need for personal space - I love them all to bits but not all at once on my knee kissing the baby...)


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## lexbeach (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
I highly recommend "Take Charge of Your Child's Health" by George Wootan, MD., and several other books that will give you the information you need to support your child in healing himself....and also recommend seeking out all of the options....there are many.

Yes, I love this book! We actually think much along the same lines as you in regards to our kids' health. We have given them motrin before for ear infections (one of my sons seems to be prone to ear infections, hence the allergy testing), but otherwise avoid anything other than herbs and homeopathy. They haven't had antibiotics or anything like that, and we don't do well visits just for fun (we have had to have them in order to get their lead levels tested for preschool; this is a state law). They have both had signs of tooth decay and have been to the dentist for cavities to be filled. They actually love the dentist, so even if it were 100% up to them, they'd still be getting their teeth cleaned







. But, anyway, my concerns were more in the other direction. Like, what if they said that instead of garlic drops for an ear infection, they'd like to try antibiotics?! Or if they decided that they'd rather be vaccinated than risk getting pertussis? This may seem far-fetched, but this fall when many of their friends were getting flu shots, they were quite upset that I wouldn't let them get them. I feel like, at 5, they're simply too young to understand all of the ramifications of these decisions. I also chose to expose them to chicken pox when it was available to us this fall rather than wait and potentially risk them catching at an older and less ideal age (i.e. as teenagers). I didn't force them to expose themselves, but there was a bit of coercion (I certainly talked them into it). Perhaps being totally consensual in regards to health choices would be easier if we lived a more sheltered existence (i.e. if I were homeschooling and all of our friends were making the same health choices as we were), but since my kids are exposed to so many different ideas about how to approach health, I can't guarantee that they'd naturally follow in my footsteps.

Thanks for your great explanations, mountainskymama!

Lex


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I also agree with the idea that the peaches story reflects a mama trying to make sense of the journey, and forgetting a very important person in that particular consensus process! In that situation, I might have tried to ask the mama if we could come up with a consensual solution (like, could she pick up some more peaches, maybe?).

Consensual living is an ongoing process. When I first started on this path, I went from thinking that my children HAVE to say "please" and "thank you" all the time, to they SHOULDN'T. Well, that made no sense. Then I realized that I could talk to ds about the fact that Grandma and Grandpa prefer it if he uses those words, and we use those words at home. And I can model it. And if it doesn't happen, whatever. But an individual gets to say how they like to be treated, and then others around that person can choose to respect it or not. So, if my neighbor wants to be Mrs. So-and-so, that's her choice, and I can talk to Wallace about that. It isn't a question of abstract authority, then, but becomes a situation of open communication.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Um no, scrounging through a hosts fridge and eating anything you want with impunity is not CL. It's rude. Period. Nowhere in CL is it implied that people just go through life without consideration to others.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Arduinna, I agree with you that it was not a conscious or considerate act, but I am inclined to take the mother at her word that she was trying to act consensually with her child. She didn't think real hard about whether that action actually constituted a consensual one. I would not act similarly, and I would be some irritated if someone did that to me.

That said, consensual living, for me, involves a level of mindfulness about ALL interactions, and harshly criticizing the mother for something that is already done is not a comfortable or productive place to be.

Again, if this actually needs saying, I don't think she should have taken the peaches. I also don't think that means she ISN'T trying to live consensually, I just think it means she made an erroneous call.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Ok, is there an age of "consent"? I have young children--how does this work for the toddlers and younger?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Are parents who practice CL ever worried what will happen when their child grows up and enters the maistream world, which is by and large not consensual, but reward/punishment driven?

Ok, we're not CL, but we do use what I have always heard called "positive discipline" which omits rewards and punishments, so let me take a stab at this....

The mainstream world is by and large reward/punishment driven because that's how people have been raised to behave. It's needed for everyone else. ;-) If you raise a child to be internally motivated, what happens is this: they do *what is right* in spite of the external motivators present. This may mean that they naturally accrue rewards/avoid punishments, or that they do things that they judge to be correct in spite of external motivators to the contrary... like returning a found wallet with the $200 cash in it, or avoiding dangerous behaviors even though everyone will think they're "cool" if they do it.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
Ok, is there an age of "consent"? I have young children--how does this work for the toddlers and younger?

We try and live consensually and my DS is only 2.5.
We came to CL through many things. ...It starts with AP, which led us to TCC, which led us to GD....to UP...eventually to CL!... It was a gradual process and still is.

I find the only reason why its more 'challenging' at such a young age, is because they are pre-verbal (mostly). I cant have a conversation with my son to come to a consensual solution about things like I could my husband...or say a 4 year old. But this is where things sort of fall into place...I feel. Because of our early bonding through AP and TCC, my son and I have a strong attachment. I 'know' him. So when something comes up, its mostly me doing the 'through process' - but even someone so young has to consent. Its very obvious if he doesnt...and he doesnt need to be verbal to let me know that. If I get stuck, I do some brainstorming with the other parents on the CL yahoo group - who perhaps have children the same age as my son or older, so have been there and done that.

For me, at this age with my son - it really is mostly just about respecting his autonomy, trust - lots of it!, and just really not 'forcing' him to do anything. This requires a lot of patience on my part (which is my only downfall sometimes







) and working as best as I can to verbalise my sons side of the 'argument' (so to speak).

This may look 'permissive' on the outside. I am usually the last mother to leave a toddler group because my son doesnt want to go yet. But I dont just 'do nothing'. Theres a lot of talking invovled (on my part lol), never punishing, threatening, rewarding, etc - never forcing or coercing... But I also dont do what all the other parents would do, which is just pick my son up kicking and screaming and say 'its time to go!' and head out. This situation would probaby look very different to many different parents. When my DS is older and more verbal we can do the 'brainstorming' a bit more together. Now sometiems I just have to learn from a past mistake and do the brainstorming afterwards. We are no longer the last ones to leave all the time because my son likes to help put all the toys away with the staff there - which for him means its time to go home, so when he is done helping he is happy to skip off home with me. It was my suggest over a few....but his actions told me this is what he has consented to.

And it all ties in with trust and respect... Because I trust and respect him, even when he does something I would rather not...because I never crossed the line, because despite it all I still did not force him...I eventually get that back in return. This is where good old peace and harmony comes in with living consensually. Before when I thought I had to be the mother that just picked up her child and left, despite the kicking and screaming....everyday things were little battles. Battles of control over the other - battles of control over our own lives. It was not peaceful. Whilst my patience may be tested daily, it is much more peaceful now there is no 'controlling' battle between either of us. We are just living together and our relationship is blooming into something beautiful built on this trust and respect.

Some things are a bit more 'tricky' when it comes to toddlers/younger children - such as safety situations, etc. But this could get long lol. Its really worth joining the yahoo group!







I will say though, that I feel its good we ourselves had a good start in life - because a lot of the more 'tricky' stuff I find, though yes - I do take into account my DS personality, is down to everything else...in those situations where I really just need him to do something I am asking of him, like not running into the road, he actually listens and follows through on my request becaues he trusts me as well...which I dont think he would do if I was always having a go at him and forcing him to do things he didnt want to...if any of that makes sense! I have a few friends (who force, coerce, punish, threaten, reward behaviour, etc) who are always complaining that their children dont listen or behave (so they force, coerce, punish, threaten, and reward wanted behaviour more an more)...but if I had very little control over my own life, I would be grasping at any little control I could have. (this is why the reward/punishment cycles dont work - and only do if the child consents to it...if they want that sticker enough on their chart to do the trick or really dont want that punishment to avoid the actions...it makes for a very selfish person - doing things because of what it will or wont bring them...instead of simply doing things for the right reason because they are the right thing to do)...

A lot of this is very much in line with things like GD and UP...but this why I said on the first page I think the key difference to CL is no force...it just takes it all that much farther.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
If you raise a child to be internally motivated, what happens is this: they do *what is right* in spite of the external motivators present. This may mean that they naturally accrue rewards/avoid punishments, or that they do things that they judge to be correct in spite of external motivators to the contrary... like returning a found wallet with the $200 cash in it, or avoiding dangerous behaviors even though everyone will think they're "cool" if they do it.

I love this. So true: return the wallet whether there's reward money or not. Return the wallet whether you will be charged with stealing or not. Return the wallet not based on "what's in it for me?" Return the wallet b/c you have empathy and consideration for another human being whose needs and wants you are considering just as you would your own.

I think a steady diet of rewards and punishment can really lead to the "what's in it for me?" thinking and behavior. It can short-circuit that empathetic process.

I *hugely* don't want to set up an environment where my family is doing things based on whether or not they will get "caught and punished" or even "caught and rewarded." I strive for a household where considering each other and doing for each other, in an altruisitc way, is the standard. And that starts with me. It's not perfect.....but that's the goal. And we have lots of boundaries--all of us.


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 

And it all ties in with trust and respect... Because I trust and respect him, even when he does something I would rather not...because I never crossed the line, because despite it all I still did not force him...I eventually get that back in return. This is where good old peace and harmony comes in with living consensually. Before when I thought I had to be the mother that just picked up her child and left, despite the kicking and screaming....everyday things were little battles. Battles of control over the other - battles of control over our own lives. It was not peaceful. Whilst my patience may be tested daily, it is much more peaceful now there is no 'controlling' battle between either of us. We are just living together and our relationship is blooming into something beautiful built on this trust and respect.

Ann, I really liked reading your post. I think you explained things really well. What you wrote above I find to be true for us, also.


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## Carlyle (Mar 31, 2007)

What an interesting thread--I'm very glad to have found it! I'm heading over to the Yahoo Group now to learn more. Thank you to everyone who took the time to type in your thoughts!


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
Consensual living is a philosophy of discipline that is gentle but there are people who discipline quite gently who are not cl.

not confusing to me! i agree. i am not CL, but i do adhere to GD.


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Loving this thread.







We've been practicing (or striving toward) CL for several months now, and recently things have fallen into place, so to speak. We were "in the gap" for awhile - I knew intellectually how I wanted to parent, but it took some time for my thoughts and actions to catch up with that - but we're in a great place right now and it's totally worth the work. Daily life is much more peaceful and joyful now that we've learned to work out solutions that respect everyone involved. There is a HUGE difference between permissive parenting and consensual living - knowing that I don't need my child's permission to meet my own needs is incredibly freeing. I'm much happier about meeting my kids' needs when I am fully aware that it is *my* choice - that I'm doing whatever I'm doing because I'm choosing to.

My oldest son is only 2.5 but he is already learning to take others into account, and to think of solutions. For example, DS2 just started crawling and has been irritating DS1 by trying to grab his toys while he's playing. DS1 and I talked about how it can feel frustrating to have DS2 trying to take his toys from him, but that DS2 doesn't understand why he can't play with whatever he sees. (Obviously at 2.5, DS1 has a very primitive understanding of this, but just enough.) He has learned now to bring his toy farther away from the baby, or in another room entirely, before the baby gets to it and all heck breaks loose. He's even started offering DS2 alternative toys to play with.

Would anyone here be interested in a CL subforum on MDC? I subscribe to the Yahoo CL list but I hate the list format and can never keep up with the digests.


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## ricemom3 (Jan 29, 2008)

I am very interested in this. I am striving to acheive gd and to some extent cl. I know that dh will never go along with cl, gd will be a stretch. But, I am subbing so I can learn as much as possible.

I love the way things have been explained!!


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## StarJune (Jan 11, 2007)

I have tried to join the yahoo group but whenever I give a profile name it does not accept it and gives me an option with a million numbers after it. Did you use your real name? Did anyone else have this problem? Maybe I should just take what is offered. I once tried all sorts of creative names that I LIKED for almost 20 minutes then gave up







.

I really want to learn more about CL.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

That's a Yahoo thing. I think it just means that the names you've chosen are already taken. I've got some crazy numbers after my login name on Yahoo, too. (So I save my name and password somewhere b/c I would NEVER remember all that mess!







)


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## angelandmisha (May 16, 2008)

Yes, I think it would be great to have a CL sub forum here. Before reading this thread, I had no idea what CL was and had only seen it mentioned here, but it seems like something I would really enjoy practicing as it feels like what I naturally gravitate towards.

It makes so much sense to me what pps have said about children learning self-discipline by being able to exert their autonomy over their own life. I especially liked the example of the children eating marshmallows and wanting to make something healthier to eat when they got home, not because it was healthier but because they like the way their bodies feel better when they eat those foods. It strikes me that perhaps we wouldn't have so many eating disorders in this country if kids actually knew how different foods made their bodies feel. And you're all totally correct, we learn best through our own experiences and make choices based on that. If we actually trusted our kids as kids instead of thinking that only adults can be trusted to make good choices, maybe there'd be a lot less difficulty in those relationships.

I see that even in my ten month old ds- if I trust him to show me what he needs we're all a lot happier. My best friend said something that really struck me not too long ago- she said that babies have the same IQ that we do, they just don't have the language and experience yet. We tend to think of children/babies as somehow a totally different entity than an adult and while certainly they are in a different place in their lives than we are, they will be an adult someday, this very same person who is a baby now. Mostly we would never treat adults the way we treat children, so why do we treat children that way? Certainly they like it just as little as adults do.

Very interesting thread, you've all given me lots to think about as usual! Thanks


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## pishajane (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dantesmama* 
Would anyone here be interested in a CL subforum on MDC? I subscribe to the Yahoo CL list but I hate the list format and can never keep up with the digests.

Count me in! I really appreciate the format here at MDC now that i've tried the yahoo group!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I'd be happy for a forum.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

There is a tribe. But I would also enjoy a subforum.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Thats bound to confuse anyone! lol

I remember when I posted this...lol...I was interrupted and meant to come back...I am so much more long-winded than this....lol


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

me too!I try to live consensually with my 2 year old, but only succeed some of the time.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
me too!I try to live consensually with my 2 year old, but only succeed some of the time.

It's an ideal. I don't know that it could ever be 100% perfect, particularly with little kids and larger families. But we do pretty good. I'm a work in progress, as is my family.

The hardest part for me is striking the balance where I'm not the one doing all the consenting


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## StarJune (Jan 11, 2007)

Thanks *monkey's mom*. I guess I will be starjune7113876545125547257162647686186656456.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

I would really enjoy a subforum. When I post cl questions on gd, it usually ends up being another explanation of cl thread rather than brainstorming with others who are on a similar journey, which is what I need in this regard- that companionship and support that comes with being free to express my thoughts within an established context.

The other issue is that many of my cl questions relate to my marriage, so I have to post in two different forums when it's the same group of people I'm trying to communicate with, and who agree that cl is a way of living with _all_ others, not a parenting style, although it may incorporate many aspects of gd as we relate to our children.

How do we petition for a CL, NVC forum?


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Angelbee, I







:







:







: your signature line!!!


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## hmkrueger (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm new to MDC and new to the identified ideas of GD and CL...I just had a conversation with my Dad yesterday about how I've been trying to parent my kids with the dignity they deserve rather than to just order them around based on what best suits me (which I wasn't doing before 100% of the time, but ykwim)...and my Dad and I teased out that this idea is really applicable to all relationships in our jobs, communities, etc. I love the idea of parenting like this with the idea that it will carry over into our entire community. I sent my Dad some of the links. Thank you all


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I would LOVE a subforum!! What can we do to try and make that happen? I`m not CL, but it`s something I really, really find very interesting, and gets a lot of great ideas and thoughts from.

This thread has been extremely helpfull!


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I have started a thread in Suggestions, where I ask about the possibilities of getting a subforum.







I bet it would help if more people show their interest, too.


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## Mom2Boy&Girl (Aug 25, 2007)

I found this thread so interesting! Thank you!

Some of the posters reminded me of the basic principles I strive to live by: stay in the present, stop allowing the fear of the unknown into my life, respect my child's feelings, let my child enjoy and learn from their own experiences, etc.

And while I don't think CL is really right for my family, there's a lot of good stuff here to draw from.

Thanks again for this.


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## honeysesame (Dec 10, 2005)

i'm enjoying reading this thread. i'm interested to hear if any of you began to incorporate cl into your lives more when your kids were a bit older (my older one is 6).... how that worked w/ changing habits and ways of communicating that were already formed between you....what was your approach and how did it go?


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

I was going to actually try to read all the posts here, I just found this thread... but I gave up - it's too late for that! I was going to reply to a couple things but see that those were addressed VERY adeptly by others. So ... what they said.









We've got four kids, ages 6 mos to 5 years, and we're steadily moving towards a CL life... I'd say we "are" CL but I fall back into other ways far too often to claim it fully. But the problem there isn't with my kids, it's with me being limited by my upbringing. My main goal as a parent, is that my kids grow up able to be objective and creative and connected _even when tired and stressed._ They are already way better at it than I am sometimes!







But - I've only had 5 years of practice at gentle parenting, and only 1 1/2 year of the paradigm shift that is CL... it's a very different perspective than what I've always known. It's definitely a learning curve!


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## pishajane (Dec 27, 2006)

Ok, perhaps someone could give me some suggestions... i'm very new to this concept, but it really rings true for me.

Does nightweaning fit into CL, and if so, how? My dd just turned 2, and usually wakes to nurse 4-6 times a night. I never planned on nightweaning, but i have a 6month old ds who is now teething, and needs to nurse much more at night now.

So, apart from the exhaustion of not having more than 2-3hrs sleep at a time for 2 whole yrs, and now having to bounce between 2 kids at night, i can see that the situation just isn't working - mainly for me, but also for everyone else. DH is frustrated that he can't console dd when she wakes but i'm already nursing ds, and dd gets soooo upset when it happens too.

The problem is that i can't think how to be consensual about the whole situation. I've tried the whole "nursies are going night night" but it just turned into nights of absolute screaming and sobbing from dd.







Not what i ever wanted to do to her.

But... i'm seriously tired. Any ideas? Thanks for any suggestions!

Trish


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pishajane* 
Ok, perhaps someone could give me some suggestions... i'm very new to this concept, but it really rings true for me.

Does nightweaning fit into CL, and if so, how? My dd just turned 2, and usually wakes to nurse 4-6 times a night. I never planned on nightweaning, but i have a 6month old ds who is now teething, and needs to nurse much more at night now.

So, apart from the exhaustion of not having more than 2-3hrs sleep at a time for 2 whole yrs, and now having to bounce between 2 kids at night, i can see that the situation just isn't working - mainly for me, but also for everyone else. DH is frustrated that he can't console dd when she wakes but i'm already nursing ds, and dd gets soooo upset when it happens too.

The problem is that i can't think how to be consensual about the whole situation. I've tried the whole "nursies are going night night" but it just turned into nights of absolute screaming and sobbing from dd.







Not what i ever wanted to do to her.

But... i'm seriously tired. Any ideas? Thanks for any suggestions!

Trish

What about inviting both little ones into bed with you? I'm nursing both my kids, 2.5 years and 11 months, and I couldn't manage without our family bed. Both kids can nurse while I'm lying down, halfway (or entirely) asleep. I get my badly-needed rest, and the kids get their milkies. Hth!


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## dantesmama (May 14, 2006)

Come show your support for a CL subforum here!


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

I have tried to wrap my head around CL several times to little avail, but I do want to understand it and give it a "fair shake" in my head.

Here is an example of the type of scenario I get hung up on. Let's say I want to take the family on a picnic at the park during the weekend. We all agree this is a great idea, do the shopping for it, etc. Then when we're supposed to be getting ready to go, someone would rather not get ready to go. This one person doesn't want to get dressed, brush her teeth, or leave. Everyone else is excited to go on the picnic.

Now, in this situation, *I* would first explain that the whole family is going on a picnic, and it is time to do xyz. If she still refused, I would as gently as possible get her ready. (The "gently but firmly" positive discipline ideal.) I would tell her it is her choice if she eats or not, but she doesn't get to ruin everybody else's picnic by refusing to go, because we can't leave her home alone.

How would a CL family handle this differently? I imagine if I was trying to do CL: her refusing, me resorting to every manipulative tactic to try to talk her into doing what I want, and then if that didn't work to get her to do what I want, me spending the rest of the day just fuming about her ruining the day for the rest of us and worrying that she's being totally spoiled. Because this scenario doesn't appeal to me whatsoever, I've never seriously looked into CL. But I am curious to know if I've got the wrong idea, and how exactly. I imagine hardcore CL'ers to be so zen, they would be able to just say, "Oh, let's just picnic here in the front yard, then, and you may join us if you like." Me, I couldn't just give up my picnic in the park. And I don't think I should have to. And everyone will probably end up with a good time anyway once we're there.

The thing is, I have very cooperative children most of the time. I very rarely have to be coercive. That picnic scenario hasn't ever happened, nor do I forsee it. (A little complaining about brushing teeth, sure. Refusal, not really.) But I don't know what I would do if I didn't have a little coercion in my back pocket, kwim?

I hope this makes any sense.

Oh, and someone was talking about dental hygiene... what if your child developed serious dental issues? And didn't want to have dental treatment, and was in pain, and was loosing his/her teeth? (This does happen to children.) Does CL really allow for a child to let their teeth rot out of their mouths? Don't you think kids would resent their parents eventually for allowing them that kind of freedom?


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Here is an example of the type of scenario I get hung up on. Let's say I want to take the family on a picnic at the park during the weekend. We all agree this is a great idea, do the shopping for it, etc. Then when we're supposed to be getting ready to go, someone would rather not get ready to go. This one person doesn't want to get dressed, brush her teeth, or leave. Everyone else is excited to go on the picnic.

Now, in this situation, *I* would first explain that the whole family is going on a picnic, and it is time to do xyz. If she still refused, I would as gently as possible get her ready. (The "gently but firmly" positive discipline ideal.) I would tell her it is her choice if she eats or not, but she doesn't get to ruin everybody else's picnic by refusing to go, because we can't leave her home alone.

How would a CL family handle this differently? I imagine if I was trying to do CL: her refusing, me resorting to every manipulative tactic to try to talk her into doing what I want, and then if that didn't work to get her to do what I want, me spending the rest of the day just fuming about her ruining the day for the rest of us and worrying that she's being totally spoiled. Because this scenario doesn't appeal to me whatsoever, I've never seriously looked into CL. But I am curious to know if I've got the wrong idea, and how exactly. I imagine hardcore CL'ers to be so zen, they would be able to just say, "Oh, let's just picnic here in the front yard, then, and you may join us if you like." Me, I couldn't just give up my picnic in the park. And I don't think I should have to. And everyone will probably end up with a good time anyway once we're there.



It is hard to address hypothetical situations because in a real situation that happens, a lot of different variables lead up to a child's refusal to do something. In a hypothetical situation there is no way to ask, what happened earlier that led to the child not wanting to go on the picnic.

I hold CL out as an ideal, so I'm not always living up to it. What I do when a child suddenly doesn't want to do something that we have been planning, I talk to them about why. Are they in the middle of something they are enjoying, are they not feeling well, did something happen to make them not feel like going. I find out what is going on, or put out a guess if I can't get them to talk. Somehow we talk it out, then get on our way. I don't try to talk them into it, I just work to understand their feelings and come up with ideas to address their concerns.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

I hear you. By that standard I guess I'm already CLing. But I don't feel like I am, because when push comes to shove, if it comes right down to it and its between my way or the kid's way, I'm getting my way. I understand avoiding this kind of situation and going great lengths to avoid the kind of disconnect that might require it. It would take a lot to get to that point, but that point is there. Would you say that's true for you?


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sari Mama* 
I think parents feel a need to subscribe to one philosophy, and mind the rules. Perhaps it starts with pregnancy when we are encouraged to make our birth choice, and it always seems like you are just supposed to go down one road after you choose it, no stepping on the grass.

I subscribe to nothing, but find I'm a bit of everything. I handle my kids with empathy and respect, this leads to a lot of what could be CL, however, I do see that my young undeveloped offspring need some control too, then I appear more GD, yet, there are times when things are going really wild, and I flat out remember and remind them, that I am the mother, and YES, that DOES give me the final say. Period. And that can almost make me seem mainstream. But we have a wonderful household. Everyone is helpful, respectful, empathetic, and above all HAPPY. And it is an everchanging culture. As we all age, have new additions, move, etc., the "rules" are ever flexing and elvoving so that they meet all of our needs.

Follow your gut, use your head, always feel with an empathetic heart, remember when you were their age, and don't forget to be selfish sometimes too!


This is very beautiful. Thank you Sari Mama. Lucky kids/family you've made!


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## mum21andtwins (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Here is an example of the type of scenario I get hung up on. Let's say I want to take the family on a picnic at the park during the weekend. We all agree this is a great idea, do the shopping for it, etc. Then when we're supposed to be getting ready to go, someone would rather not get ready to go. This one person doesn't want to get dressed, brush her teeth, or leave. Everyone else is excited to go on the picnic.

Oh, and someone was talking about dental hygiene... what if your child developed serious dental issues? And didn't want to have dental treatment, and was in pain, and was loosing his/her teeth? (This does happen to children.) Does CL really allow for a child to let their teeth rot out of their mouths? Don't you think kids would resent their parents eventually for allowing them that kind of freedom?

For the picnic I would find out why he doesn't want to go and then find a suitable middleground probably the picnic in the garden.
For the teeth if a child is in pain does he really not want the pain taken away? or is it a fear for the unknown? My guess is that this is something you can talk trough, kids aren't stupid. I think one very important thing is that kids are not programmed to say no, they will make the best decisions for them when they have the right information. I imagine that if this where to happen to my nearly 4y/o he would be frightened of the dentist if the procedure would hurt etc. I would tell him that yes it would hurt some but they can do xyz to make it less painful. if he where to say he doesn't want to have it done we would discuss what would happen to his teeth when he doesn't have the procedure done. my bet is that he'd want it sorted out.


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## pishajane (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dantesmama* 
What about inviting both little ones into bed with you? I'm nursing both my kids, 2.5 years and 11 months, and I couldn't manage without our family bed. Both kids can nurse while I'm lying down, halfway (or entirely) asleep. I get my badly-needed rest, and the kids get their milkies. Hth!

I just can't wrap my head around how to nurse them both while lying down! That would be ideal, but i can't figure out how... so dd is in her own bed because if she saw me nursing ds she'd go nuts. Actually, she goes nuts anyway if i don't come to her because i'm w/ ds. Can't seem to get it right.


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

i would love a CL subforum (and i just showed my support). in another thread i stated how i didn't think a 20 month old could understand time outs and wow, did some mamas tell me i was wrong! evidently 14 month olds can understand too (though i am not sure why one would put a 14 month old in time out...). it's weird to feel like this at mothering.com!


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
I hear you. By that standard I guess I'm already CLing. But I don't feel like I am, because when push comes to shove, if it comes right down to it and its between my way or the kid's way, I'm getting my way. I understand avoiding this kind of situation and going great lengths to avoid the kind of disconnect that might require it. It would take a lot to get to that point, but that point is there. Would you say that's true for you?

I do have that point because there are a few things we can't avoid and maybe that is what keeps me from being a true CL. I'm not to hung up on it though, because I feel we do pretty well over all.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I saw this quote on your thread in Q&S:

Quote:

(everyone is happy with the plan),
And I had to ask. How is that even possible? I have four kids, plus the ones I do childcare for. How on earth are they all going to be happy at the same time?


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kacymoose* 
I do have that point because there are a few things we can't avoid and maybe that is what keeps me from being a true CL. I'm not to hung up on it though, because I feel we do pretty well over all.

OK, that's cool. I think I'm intimidated by CL because I feel like it is off the continuum. 97% of the time I think I could totally hang with the CLers. But if a 3% of the time type of thing were to go down, and I had to go all authoritative on one of my kids, well... I'd feel like I'd have to slink out the door. I have this idea in my head that CLers are somehow better people who have figured out how to better manage every thing that I can't seem to do perfectly. For years I've wished I could be a fly on the wall at Alfie Kohn's house, for example. Because I think his every move must be so perfectly thought-out and phrased perfectly. I also wish I could silently observe some of the CL rockstars and see what it really looks like in real life with real people.

I am sooooo rambling. The thing is, I'm moving to an area where I'm likely to come into close and frequent contact with some of the most serious CLers out there. I admire them from afar as it is, but I'm nervous about actually interacting with them.


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## zoshamosha (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
OK, that's cool. I think I'm intimidated by CL because I feel like it is off the continuum. 97% of the time I think I could totally hang with the CLers. But if a 3% of the time type of thing were to go down, and I had to go all authoritative on one of my kids, well... I'd feel like I'd have to slink out the door. I have this idea in my head that CLers are somehow better people who have figured out how to better manage every thing that I can't seem to do perfectly. For years I've wished I could be a fly on the wall at Alfie Kohn's house, for example. Because I think his every move must be so perfectly thought-out and phrased perfectly. I also wish I could silently observe some of the CL rockstars and see what it really looks like in real life with real people.

I am sooooo rambling. The thing is, I'm moving to an area where I'm likely to come into close and frequent contact with some of the most serious CLers out there. I admire them from afar as it is, but I'm nervous about actually interacting with them.









I think the only way you can truly be successful at CL is if you get over judging others anyway. There's no competition, yo! LOL!


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountainskymama* 
First of all, when I make decisions based on fear, I am not being present, and I am not in tune with my child or the situation at hand. I am now dealing with a hypothetical future situation that may or may not happen. Where is the joy in that? Where is the connection?

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I'm LOVING this discussion. I have read only a little about CL before, but from what you momas have written, it really sounds like the path that I'm trying to tread with my life.

I really agree with the quote above - it really saddens me that so much parenting advice comes from this place of fear. "If you don't wean now, it will be harder later on..." or "if you let him do that, you will be in for trouble..." and on and on. Moma's are questioning their actions hundreds of times a day - thinking "If I do this, then it will become a bad habit" etc

And I really like the quote about "if you don't push them, there's nothing for them to push against". I had been (sometimes still am) struggling with the idea of "setting boundaries" with my toddler ds. It seems like the absolute "must do" for (good) parents of toddlers. But, quite honestly, when we are at home, I feel like there are hardly ever any boundaries to "set" - most often just compromises and creative solutions to be made. There are very few instances where ds' behaviour is "out of line" with what is acceptable. Sure, our place is messier than most people could stand, but, so what? If it gets to me, I clean it up a little. I have noticed a few times that ds has picked up something hard and pointy off the floor because he has stepped on it a few times and noticed how uncomfortable it is... isn't this more worthwhile than having an arbitrary rule about packing up all the time?

Anyway, what I really like (about CL) is enjoying the process of living and having everyone's needs met as best as possible. As for the end product - who knows? There really is no "end product" is there? There will only ever be future "present moments".

I'm off to read the rest of the thread, and check out that website. Many thanks for starting the discussion by the way!


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

Very interesting thread. I am just comparing the concept to our own lives. In some ways we're very laid back parents. We don't push food on our guy, let him eat what he would like amongst the choices we give him, let him choice what activities he'd like to do when we get home from work, and let him 'free' play instead of trying to turn him into a little genius. When he's older I am not going to put crazy pressure on him in academics or to have enrichment activities 24/7. When it comes down to choosing a career I won't be one of those parents who is dissapointed as long as he is happy.

But at the same time I can't imagine letting an almost two year make the 'right' decision for himself. We'd never get out of the house in the morning. He'd never have a clean diaper. He'd spend all weekend wandering around outside until he collapsed of heat exhaustion. His face would be covered in his last meal.

As for tooth brushing, right now he's too young to understand the consequences. Is is not my responsibility as a parent to protect him from what he doesn't know until he's old enough to understand it himself? To keep him out of pain later.

I guess I am very old school thinking but like is full of situations where you have to do things you might not like. Work can be like that sometimes. I do have a very 'live and let live' sort of boss so I can do what I want as long as I get my job done, but this doesn't always happen. I'd like my guy to be prepared to not consensually live his way under a bridge.

Even more old school thinking - I really do think children are happier when they live under a set of guidelines. I feel like it's uncomfortable for them to not have boundaries or expectations of how they should behave. I am not talking about being cruel, spanking, or any other poor parenting btw.

Help this dinosaur of a mommy understand


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Boundaries and expectations are pretty much inherent. There are just some things that can't happen. Gravity is a bear when you're 3.







Kids know these exist. I have pretty high expectations of behavior. I'm not going to be ok with my kids climbing shelves or charging through the grocery store. But we can figure out a way to climb and run elsewhere. AND get the groceries bought in a way that doesn't include coercion.

And I totally disagree that life is full of "have tos." The vast, vast majority of the time we don't have to do anything. No one has to work. We choose it b/c we want the money or for some other reason. Lots of people choose not to work. Lots of people choose to make do without money. Or figure out other arrangements. Shifting away from *having* to do things, to *choosing* to do things can be a very freeing journey, in my experience. I'm not the victim I once thought I was. I have many different choices. I want my kids to feel that way, too.


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## sarenka (Mar 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
The vast, vast majority of the time we don't have to do anything. No one has to work. We choose it b/c we want the money or for some other reason. Lots of people choose not to work. Lots of people choose to make do without money. Or figure out other arrangements. Shifting away from *having* to do things, to *choosing* to do things can be a very freeing journey, in my experience. I'm not the victim I once thought I was. I have many different choices. I want my kids to feel that way, too.









I know firsthand just how freeing this revelation is - that everything I do is a choice and at the end of the day even if I cannot change the circumstance I can change my attitude to it.

At the same time, though, I think there are plenty of people in the world born into circumstances in which they really do not have a lot of choice. Many of the choices I have are a bit of a luxury.

I am loving this thread







. In a way I don't like the fact that what my instincts tell me is right has a name







in another way it is wonderful to hear so many people's experiences. Thanks everyone.


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
I have tried to wrap my head around CL several times to little avail, but I do want to understand it and give it a "fair shake" in my head.

Here is an example of the type of scenario I get hung up on. Let's say I want to take the family on a picnic at the park during the weekend. We all agree this is a great idea, do the shopping for it, etc. Then when we're supposed to be getting ready to go, someone would rather not get ready to go. This one person doesn't want to get dressed, brush her teeth, or leave. Everyone else is excited to go on the picnic.

Now, in this situation, *I* would first explain that the whole family is going on a picnic, and it is time to do xyz. If she still refused, I would as gently as possible get her ready. (The "gently but firmly" positive discipline ideal.) I would tell her it is her choice if she eats or not, but she doesn't get to ruin everybody else's picnic by refusing to go, because we can't leave her home alone.

How would a CL family handle this differently? I imagine if I was trying to do CL: her refusing, me resorting to every manipulative tactic to try to talk her into doing what I want, and then if that didn't work to get her to do what I want, me spending the rest of the day just fuming about her ruining the day for the rest of us and worrying that she's being totally spoiled. Because this scenario doesn't appeal to me whatsoever, I've never seriously looked into CL. But I am curious to know if I've got the wrong idea, and how exactly. I imagine hardcore CL'ers to be so zen, they would be able to just say, "Oh, let's just picnic here in the front yard, then, and you may join us if you like." Me, I couldn't just give up my picnic in the park. And I don't think I should have to. And everyone will probably end up with a good time anyway once we're there.

The thing is, I have very cooperative children most of the time. I very rarely have to be coercive. That picnic scenario hasn't ever happened, nor do I forsee it. (A little complaining about brushing teeth, sure. Refusal, not really.) But I don't know what I would do if I didn't have a little coercion in my back pocket, kwim?

OK, I might be wrong but to me consensual living implies a consensus. It doesn't mean that one person can suddenly change his or her mind and expect everyone else to follow along with them. A child saying "I don't want to go on the picnic so we're not going." really is no different than an adult authoritatively stating "I don't want to go so we're not going." It's giving too much authority to the child IMO.

I tell my kids that we are a family. And part of being a family means that you can't do everything you want all the time. There are plenty of times I don't particularly feel like going to swim lessons or the park and would rather stay home and read my book but I go anyway. So my kids know that while there may be times they have to go along somewhere they don't want to go (grocery shopping or whatever), there are also times when they get to go places they want to go.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

But the thing is, like you say, you CAN put your foot down and say, "No I don't want to got the the swim lesson." But you go b/c you want to. B/c honoring other family member's choices is important to you. Honoring your commitment is important to you.

So, there's no reason to think kids won't have that same line of reasoning.

We do things we aren't THRILLED about doing all the time. But we don't HAVE to.

So I think there's this assumption that if kids were given the choice to not do stuff they weren't THRILLED about doing that they never would.

That has not been my experience at all.

My children are willing to do many things they aren't thrilled about doing b/c they understand the same give and take will come around to them, and commitment honoring, and putting other family member's wishes as a priority to their own.

But not being thrilled about doing something and choosing to do it for another is not the same thing as HAVING to do something you don't WANT to do.

And, for our family, abondoning the "have to do stuff you don't want to" mentality opens up a lot more "choosing to do stuff you aren't thrilled about for the sake of another."

Less have to = more want to.







It's kooky but it's been what's happened here.


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## heatherdeg (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sari Mama* 
I think parents feel a need to subscribe to one philosophy, and mind the rules. Perhaps it starts with pregnancy when we are encouraged to make our birth choice, and it always seems like you are just supposed to go down one road after you choose it, no stepping on the grass.

I subscribe to nothing, but find I'm a bit of everything. I handle my kids with empathy and respect, this leads to a lot of what could be CL, however, I do see that my young undeveloped offspring need some control too, then I appear more GD, yet, there are times when things are going really wild, and I flat out remember and remind them, that I am the mother, and YES, that DOES give me the final say. Period. And that can almost make me seem mainstream. But we have a wonderful household. Everyone is helpful, respectful, empathetic, and above all HAPPY. And it is an everchanging culture. As we all age, have new additions, move, etc., the "rules" are ever flexing and elvoving so that they meet all of our needs.

Follow your gut, use your head, always feel with an empathetic heart, remember when you were their age, and don't forget to be selfish sometimes too!


I think this is more what I am striving for than complete CL. I think I've just gotten too close to the mainstream and have not used enough of the CL and GD practices--it's mostly that "final say" mentality here lately and 1) it doesn't work; 2) it doesn't make ANY of us feel good; and 3) it's not the mindset I want to teach my son.

By the same token, I do see a time and place for it (albeit the exception as opposed to the rule). Especially for my kid who is in the autism spectrum and has auditory processing disorder: he doesn't always care about others outwardly and in actions (although I know he cares, he's just not processing and showing it the way most kids do), and you can't always reason with him or have a conversation with him.

And I think if the firm/control times were so few and far between, my child would understand that it was a serious issue whereas now--everything kind of melds into one thing that's unpleasant.

I think if I strive towards CL, I will find my footing in the gray areas between what I'm doing now and full CL that works for our family.

Since I'm a complete newbie to CL, I'm sticking with this group!!!


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## tresleo (Mar 15, 2004)

:


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi there... I really enjoyed this thread and wanted to offer this:
Virtues Parenting-blending all my fave philosophies.

We approach CL from the pov that it takes work to achieve the ideal, and there are days with little ones where it is VERY hard to be consensual... but I know that the benefits will really reveal themselves later, down the road.

We use tools from UP, L&L, and other sources to supplement the principles involved in living in a consensual environment.

Recently I have begun to utilize the things I'm learning via the Virtue Project.

Find out more by checking out the above link to a discussion I started in Gentle Discipline.

Best wishes!


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## kundemama (Oct 17, 2005)

:


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PreggieUBA2C* 









Angelbee, I







:







:







: your signature line!!!

Thank you!


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## librarianmama (Jun 17, 2006)

I have been working towards a more consensual relationship with my 8yo DD and I find it hard to change our patterns. A previous poster asked about this with her 6yo and I was hoping for some advice but never saw it addressed. What do you guys think?

My daughter and I have gotten into a pattern of what feels like power struggles and I'm trying really hard to give up control while having both of us feel respected and cared for. For example; I know she is tired and ready for getting into bed and for me to read to her before sleep but she gets stalled getting ready for bed and is suddenly distracted by a toy. I am ready to help her if she needs it but I am also ready to read to her and maybe have an hour or 2 to do my own things before I get to bed. After a few times of asking her to get ready I admit to losing my temper a little and raising my voice. The pattern I see we're in is that if I don't raise my voice she doesn't get ready but if I keep talking to her and trying to find out what she's thinking or what she needs she can't articulate to me.

I really need some help to have more patience and how to communicate with her.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *librarianmama* 
My daughter and I have gotten into a pattern of what feels like power struggles and I'm trying really hard to give up control while having both of us feel respected and cared for. For example; I know she is tired and ready for getting into bed and for me to read to her before sleep but she gets stalled getting ready for bed and is suddenly distracted by a toy. I am ready to help her if she needs it but I am also ready to read to her and maybe have an hour or 2 to do my own things before I get to bed. After a few times of asking her to get ready I admit to losing my temper a little and raising my voice. The pattern I see we're in is that if I don't raise my voice she doesn't get ready but if I keep talking to her and trying to find out what she's thinking or what she needs she can't articulate to me.


My daughter was around 5 when I started letting her decide when she was ready to go to bed. She would drag out bedtime or I would have to force her to get ready and it just wasn't working for me or her. At first, she would go to bed really late. If I had some things I needed to do and she was engaged with something - I took that time to myself. Other times, she wanted me to play a game or something with her, so I didn't always get my quiet time for a while. Now she is almost always in bed around 10 - I usually stay up until 12 or so. I think it is good thing to let her listen to her body and learn for herself when she is too tired and has stopped having fun. It also took the power struggle out of bedtime and made it much more pleasant for both of us.


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## librarianmama (Jun 17, 2006)

Hi Kacymoose, thanks so much for your reply. I worry about my dd getting enough sleep as we have to wake so early to get to school. Did you talk to your daughter about letting her decide when she was ready for bed or did you just start doing it? Another possible sticky point is that she stays with her father 2-3 nights a week and I'm not sure if he would go for it.

Sometimes it feels like almost everything gets to be a power struggle and that she's really not hearing me, ya know? I'm going to try and be a bit more flexible and gentle on the nighttime routine.

This is a great thread and I will keep reading to remind myself how to be present and see where my own pre-conceived beliefs are coming from.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

The no bed time thing just evolved on its own. I think she was really preoccupied with her own stuff one evening and I had work to do. I got so busy working that I didn't notice how late it was. She came to me telling me she was tired and wanted to go to bed. It was kinda an "AHA" moment, where I realized she could figure this out on her own. We home school so we don't have to worry about getting up in the am. IMO, lack of sleep for a few days isn't going to be detrimental in the long term. If I was in your situation with your dd staying with her dad several nights, I would just do things my way at home and let him do things his way at his house. He might not be on board, or start out on board only to bail out, leaving you frustrated. Kids are resilent and can easily understand that different places/people have different ways of doing things.


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

We had a situation here yesterday, and I'd love some feedback on what you would do differently.

My cousin and her two kids are staying in a cottage 2 doors down from our house. We were planning a walk to a nearby dam but my kids wanted to canoe instead, so we did that. On the way back T(6) and M(4) wanted to come with us. My kids don't enjoy playing with them very much--mostly a huge personality conflict, I think--my kids are quiet and sensitive and M and T are very sociable. So DS (4) told me he wouldn't go in the canoe if they came. I told T and M kids that we were almost too full (I also had my very pregnant friend riding along) but we did have room for one more. T was told firmly by his mother that he was going to walk back with her, and M could go in the canoe. T was so so very upset. I knew that nobody was happy, not my kids, not her's. My two refused to sit near M, and they fought over the two kid's paddles on the way back, while I'm trying to single-handedly paddle and steer us home into a headwind. Fun times!

When we got home my DS (4) had his train set out ont he floor when T (6) came over. DS is highly sensitive and has a very difficult time sharing his toys. I don't make him, but usually we put away his special non-sharing toys in his room with the door closed before other kids come over. That didn't happen this time, and T got right down on the floor and started playing. DS started to cry, wanting me to make him stop playing. I felt badly for T but at the same time I knew it was a REALLY big deal to DS. DS was beginning a meltdown (doesn't take long with him.) I very gently explained to T that these were DS's very special toys that he wasn't ready to share yet. And that at our house, everyone was in charge of their own things. I know that's not how it is at their house. This was probably the hardest part for me, knowing that he didn't get it because his mom always made him share. So I put away the train set and then I (and this was pobably the best idea) told T that I had a computer game that I wanted to share with him. He played it for a while and cheered up.

Now that I'm writing this I think I handled the train set thing alright. But what should I have done about the canoe? I know my cousin was tired and hot and didn't want to carry her crying 4 yr old home. I didn't want to hurt her by saying that my kids didn't want to be with her's. And truth be told, an extra kid in the canoe would not have put us under and I did have a life-jacket for him. The only reason he had to walk was because my kids didn't want to be with him. They'd had too much company and too little alone time.

Any thoughts--what do you do when there is a situation with another family that doesn't practice CL? I feel like my kids get what they want more often because I'm more willing to give and I take their feelings into account. I feel bad for the others who are told to do this because I said so.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shami* 
Help me understand more.
*If everything in life is optional in the formative years, what kind of adult does this produce?*

I wonder about this too.


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

Living consensually does not mean that everything in life is optional. For my kids, it means that their ideas and opinions are taken seriously. It also means that they hear my thoughts and opinions and learn to take those seriously too.

When I'm willing to negotiate with a child to help that child get what he needs, that child is more willing to negotitate and give in to help me get what I need. At least that's been our experience so far.

I think this tribe thread isn't exactly what we're looking for. And we won't be getting a sub-forum anytime soon if it keeps getting lost and going dead for 2 months. How would it be if we had a weekly Consensual Living thread in the GD forum? I know it doesn't fit perfectly there but more people would see it and it'd be easier to keep active.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

just wanna *bump* this to keep it alive and maintain a show of interest, so's we can get a jolly subforum!


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

This thread is leaving me feeling so inspired. It's like a breath of fresh air. Wow. I would love to try this approach to living...but I'm scared because my partner is very much of the 'if i say it, the kids must do it' school...not as in, spanking or anything, but he does believe there is a hierarchy and we as parents are at the top. So I don't know if its possible to do it with only one parent... probably not...but this idea speaks to me...

I am particularly interested in this because I am working on really deep seated issues from my childhood, of anger and abuse, and I find when I have a 'controlling' mindset in my parenting, like 'I MUST get him to do x', then the anger has more of a channel and is harder to control.

One thing does occur to me, though, and its similar to what Lotusbirthmama said about how do children raised this way fit into mainstream society - the other day a friend of mine (who is childless) said she was going to visit a friend but dreaded seeing her kids, because they were so impossible, such handfuls, a nightmare, etc. I asked why and she said because the mother had brought them up to be 'free spirits' and didnt use traditional discipline. She said, the mother didn't do them any favours in terms of their social skills and ability to socialise with the wider world. NOw, obv I've never seen this family in action and I dont know if she was just 'laissez-faire' in her approach or uses negotiation or consensual living or what, but I just thought, that's an interesting point, and probably a lot of people will say that. ANd it does concern me, to be honest. I guess I'm afraid that if I dont' make it very clear that, say, hitting or running around screeching in a public place are not acceptable, then my child will do that inappropriately and be rejected by his peers, or get in trouble at school, etc. Probably just a fear, but could anyone comment on that?

thank you.


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## Shannie77 (Jan 16, 2007)

I have been reading a lot about consensual living lately, and it really feels right to me. My DD is 15 months, and since becoming inspired I am finding the days much easier and my patience much greater.

I tried to find the CL tribe, but I can't post in it. I am sure I am not the only one but I do find it a bit intimidating to jump into a thread and start posting. I really hope they give a CL sub-forum a shot.

I would love to hear more about other's experiences. Are there any books you would recommend? I am currently reading Unconditional Parenting, and I love it.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Here's the Yahoo Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/

As for kids with poor social skills, to be honest, I think a lot of adults just don't want to interact with kids. I certainly know kids from very authoritarian environments whom I don't have a great time with, and also kids I really enjoy. Kids are sometimes just a different pace. I suspect that this woman isn't going to her friend's house to be with her friend's kids - she's going to be with her friend. It doesn't have to do with upbringing. It's like when I have a friend whose boyfriend is around, when I just want girlfriend time. Maybe she wants the mother to be authoritarian so that she can tell the kids to go away and play quietly, and not interrupt the date.

Some kids ARE more gregarious and interactive, and the more consensually raised kids are probably less likely to identify an adult as someone they should not talk to, unlike other kids. YKWIM? Kids deserve the same respect as adults; if I am at a friend's house and her kids want me to play with them and show me their rooms and whatever, and I am not up for it right then, I just tell them I'm hanging out with so-ad-so, maybe we can play later. On the other hand, I often find that really interacting with someone else's kids when I first see them makes me less competition for Mom's attention, and makes them more open to my presence.


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Love this CL thread!!! I am working towards this more and more everyday and I see the benefits of this already!

Is there a September CL thread anywhere I am missing? Or any word on a sub forum?


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mummy marja* 
I think this tribe thread isn't exactly what we're looking for. And we won't be getting a sub-forum anytime soon if it keeps getting lost and going dead for 2 months. How would it be if we had a weekly Consensual Living thread in the GD forum? I know it doesn't fit perfectly there but more people would see it and it'd be easier to keep active.

I agree with you. I have a hard time finding the answers I need pertaining to CL with a toddler in this thread. Its just too long. But I feel it is so important to start the groundwork NOW, as opposed to waiting until she is 6 to start with it.

I would definitely be interested in a weekly chat thread. And I will be more than happy to help keep it alive.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here are some old threads addressing some of the challenges of
creating solutions with little people.

-Here are a few non verbal toddler threads:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1881

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1905

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1861

This one is about leaving places:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1719

This one is about leaving the park:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1445

This one is about negotiating around boring appointments:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1692

This one is about "too much information":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1605

Getting shoes on a toddler and other creative problem solving:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1960

CL for a young preverbal toddler:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1895

Some basic CL questions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1673

Toddlers with a mind of their own and transitions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1443

Food issues and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1123

How to gain cooperation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1305

Book recommendations:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1279 See also
the files for discussion and links to the recommended reading list.

Please do post particular issues. But I hope this will help to answer
some of the process and philosophy questions related to seeking
mutually agreeable solutions with little people.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here are some links to archived CL threads. Many are complex issues
with extensive discussion of nuances, practical application, and tools
for overcoming obstacles to creating mutually agreeable solutions.

Pat

Product oriented parenting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ing/message/52

Sleeping issues:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/185

Boundaries: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/134

Support group vs. discussion list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/131

Questions re: limits and control:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ing/message/32

Challenges of living consensually:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/405

Toddlers making messes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/388

Paradigm shift/ non-coercive vs. consensual:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/249

Re: Logical and Natural Consequences:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/408
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/411
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/427
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/466

Saying Yes to video games?:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/536

Ouch! And biting while nursing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/523

Attached babies and carseats:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/542
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/543
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/547

The stories we tell ourselves:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/502

Unconditional Parenting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/226
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/299

What to do when a mom is being mean to their child:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/424

Underlying needs:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/756
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/757
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/764
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1172

Autonomy:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/696
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/691

Embracing your self-worth:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/699

"Hurt when wrong":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/654

Reality, Judgment and Modeling:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/587

Goodbadrightwrong:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/601

Persuasion: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1185
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1200

Consensual weaning:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/951
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/956

Living Consensually with a partner:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1356
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1357

How to gain cooperation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1293
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1296

Talking about peace with our children:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1289
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1298

Food: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1123

Toothbrushing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1314
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1316

Even spending between siblings:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1263
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1265

How do you respond when you feel disappointment?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1232
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1233

TCC and CL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1567
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1568

Leaving the park:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1420
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1427

Dealing with issues that can't bend on - i.e. harming animals:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1378

Preschoolers and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1633

Too much information:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1605

Only one parent interested in CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1590

HALT, coercion and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1592

HTH, Pat


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Holy Buckets! That is a ton of links! I will be reading for months straight. Thanks so much!


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## kindergirl77 (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
Holy Buckets! That is a ton of links! I will be reading for months straight. Thanks so much!

holy buckets batman is right!







: thank you!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I did a little research, and there is no plan to have a forum. I agree that the tribe format is really cumbersome. The yahoo list is very helpful. But I like forums too.

Someone suggested to me that I try posting questions with a "CL approaches only, please" rider at the end. Maybe we could try that?


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## tresleo (Mar 15, 2004)

So, do any CL families go to school?

Are they going because they want to? Or because your family situations dictate they do?

What does homework look like at your house? Do they do it on their terms? How do you handle the teachers reactions? What _are_ the teachers reactions?


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindergirl77* 
holy buckets batman is right!







: thank you!









:

I really do need to start checking some of these links out and sub so I can lurk here.

ds is almost 8 months old. I was not able to do CL with his older siblings (now 19 and 16 1/2 years old) but I am familiar with the concept.

The other way doesn't work. I was raised with Skinnerian Behavioral Modification and have seen what it does to both people and dogs.

I'm not going that way with Terran. I'm just not.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Checking in and checking links







:


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for the bump! I need to get re-reading on this. Things actually have been going pretty well but I always like a little more reading material.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MonkeyPrincess* 
So, do any CL families go to school?

Are they going because they want to? Or because your family situations dictate they do?

What does homework look like at your house? Do they do it on their terms? How do you handle the teachers reactions? What _are_ the teachers reactions?

DS goes to daycare but he's just a little one. He loves it though. I mean, sometimes on weekends he bangs on the door trying to get out and yelling "SCHOOOOOOL" and we have to disappoint him that it's closed today. So I guess he's temperamentally suited to it.

When I was a kid my mother did often offer to home-school me, but I preferred to stay in school. Sometimes they pressured me to do homework and sometimes they backed off-- either way I did it on my terms, the pressuring had no positive or negative effect on that as far as I remember. The teachers pretty much always had set policies about how late homework would affect the grade. So if I got it in late, that would mean a lower grade and I was sometimes OK with that, depending on circumstances. I did get it in on time the majority of the time, though! Now I'm a Ph.D student and... same thing.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

consensual living tribe 2009!!!


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I was looking for this.







:


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

And I had already found it







Didn't realize.


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## Erin082 (Jan 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sari Mama* 
I think parents feel a need to subscribe to one philosophy, and mind the rules. Perhaps it starts with pregnancy when we are encouraged to make our birth choice, and it always seems like you are just supposed to go down one road after you choose it, no stepping on the grass.

I subscribe to nothing, but find I'm a bit of everything. I handle my kids with empathy and respect, this leads to a lot of what could be CL, however, I do see that my young undeveloped offspring need some control too, then I appear more GD, yet, there are times when things are going really wild, and I flat out remember and remind them, that I am the mother, and YES, that DOES give me the final say. Period. And that can almost make me seem mainstream. But we have a wonderful household. Everyone is helpful, respectful, empathetic, and above all HAPPY. And it is an everchanging culture. As we all age, have new additions, move, etc., the "rules" are ever flexing and elvoving so that they meet all of our needs.

Follow your gut, use your head, always feel with an empathetic heart, remember when you were their age, and don't forget to be selfish sometimes too!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

There is a *CL Tribe 2009* in FYT: http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1021416 I just added a bunch of links to various discussions at the CL yahoogroup.

Pat


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I find I am moving more toward CL these days, and getting better 'results' then I do with GD but haven't taken the plunge yet. Maybe I never will! We'll see - I like to try new things and see what works for my family


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

How does CL work for small children and danger situations (like running away in a parking lot, or an "older" sibling hurting a younger sibling--like three and 7 months, or fires, etc.)?

My children never ran away from me in a parking lot (at least not yet) I think this is something we took a CL approach with from the beginning, by controlling the situation until they could understand the dangers. We taught them the dangers by showing them a car running over a can, and explaining to them that cars can cause damage to things they run over, even people, and explaining/modeling things we can do to stay safe. Fires we taught what hot means. MY kids were more then happy to sign language the word hot at a fire instead of touching it. they still learned what hot it, and they learned what hurt is, and we explain that something is so hot it can hurt you. sibling rivalry is something we are working on. Currently, I attend to the hurt child first. If the hurter cannot stop acting dangerously while I do this I will move them to a safe place and give them something to do, and let them know I will be there soon I just have to console the hurt child first. Then I will go to them and connect with them. I will figure out what they were feeling and discuss with them ways that we can manage those feelings in a healthy way in the future, and talk with them about the importance of being kind and gentle to those we care about. I don't know if that is CL or not though, but I think we are headed more in that direction then our previous approach of "no tolerance for hitting, go to time out" and I noticed our new approach works much better then using punishment.

How does CL work for hygiene issues (brushing teeth and washing body)?
My son hates his hair being washed. I explain that we have to do it for health reasons. We have agreed to washing hair every other day, and I will wipe their eyes with a towel when done. I am trying to suggest he tips his head back, but he doesn't understand yet. I also made it more fun (though I suppose this isn't CL since its a reward) by blowing bubbles at the end of bath time for the kids to catch and pop.

How does CL work for eating (like if they only want cookies or something, or have a difficult time trying new foods)?

it maybe helps we don't keep junk food in the house. It's my job to provide meals and their job to decide which to eat. Again, I don't know if this is CL or not, but I hope to learn more from this post. I don't force my children to eat anything. All of our food is healthy, even snack food. We do have cookies as an occasional treat but we talk about why we eat healthy and how eating healthy makes us feel the best







Sometimes they will ask for a snack when I don't think they are hungry. I will just ask them if they are really hungry or if they are bored. If they are bored we find something to do. if they are really hungry I let them pick a snack. Snack food in our house is fruits, veggies, etc - not junk food. When my children get older and learn what junk food is I am not sure what we will do... hence why plan to read all the replies in this thread!

How does CL work for the high needs/spirited child?

My son is special needs and very spirited. I have to say that while there are some things I feel aren't as CL as I would like, and I hope to find a better way, that the more CL we are the better my son responds! The only real issue we have is that I have to leave him alone while I console another child sometimes because he won't stop being aggressive or destructive in the meantime, but I try to take a non punitive approach to this..


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

*Re: Non-verbal toddlers-repost*
Here are some old threads on the Consensual Living yahoogroup addressing some of the challenges of creating solutions with little people.

-Here are a few non verbal toddler threads:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1881

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1905

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1861

This one is about leaving places:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1719

This one is about leaving the park:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1445

This one is about negotiating around boring appointments:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1692

This one is about "too much information":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1605

Getting shoes on a toddler and other creative problem solving:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1960

CL for a young preverbal toddler:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1895

Some basic CL questions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1673

Toddlers with a mind of their own and transitions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1443

Food issues and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1123

How to gain cooperation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1305

Book recommendations:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1279 See also
the files for discussion and links to the recommended reading list.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here are some links to archived CL threads. Many are complex issues
with extensive discussion of nuances, practical application, and tools
for overcoming obstacles to creating mutually agreeable solutions.

Pat

Product oriented parenting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ing/message/52

Sleeping issues:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/185

Boundaries: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/134

Support group vs. discussion list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/131

Questions re: limits and control:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ing/message/32

Challenges of living consensually:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/405

Toddlers making messes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/388

Paradigm shift/ non-coercive vs. consensual:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/249

Re: Logical and Natural Consequences:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/408
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/411
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/427
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/466

Saying Yes to video games?:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/536

Ouch! And biting while nursing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/523

Attached babies and carseats:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/542
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/543
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/547

The stories we tell ourselves:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/502

Unconditional Parenting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/226
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/299

What to do when a mom is being mean to their child:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/424

Underlying needs:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/756
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/757
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/764
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1172

Autonomy:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/696
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/691

Embracing your self-worth:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/699

"Hurt when wrong":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/654

Reality, Judgment and Modeling:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/587

Goodbadrightwrong:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/601

Persuasion: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1185
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1200

Consensual weaning:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/951
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...ng/message/956

Living Consensually with a partner:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1356
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1357

How to gain cooperation:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1293
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1296

Talking about peace with our children:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1289
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1298

Food: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1123

Toothbrushing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1314
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1316

Even spending between siblings:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1263
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1265

How do you respond when you feel disappointment?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1232
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1233

TCC and CL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1567
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1568

Leaving the park:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1420
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1427

Dealing with issues that can't bend on - i.e. harming animals:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1378

Preschoolers and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1633

Too much information:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1605

Only one parent interested in CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1590

HALT, coercion and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1592

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Is consistency important? What is consistency?:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5017
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5038

I don't want my son exposed to children who watch TV or movies:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5039
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5044

Validation vs. Fixing?:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5025
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5026

Recommended Reading Request:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4984

Child can not get enough of me:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4982

Kids testing boundaries in social situations:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4928

Getting your child ill on purpose (chicken pox):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4929
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4948

helping dh to understand consensual living:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4914
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/1793

Siblings: To share or not to share, that is the question...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4822
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4804
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4891

How to restore trust and remove guilt with a 4 year old:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4775

Manners?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4851

Teens sneaking out, need some perspective:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4780

Wasting water:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4808

Finding it hard to deal with others and 'praise'...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4745

The Whole Point - I Think I Finally Get It!:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4733

Almost 4 y.o. wanting to nurse instead of eat:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4683

Does CL mean your toddler never cries?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4595

Rude seven year old son---THIS IS LOOONG.:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4664

question about judgment:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4593

CPS may visit our home:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4643

Consensual Eyedrops?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4657

Medications:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4600

Help. Sleep issues.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4555

Another question...about NVC:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4476

Toddler who wont move:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4516

Tick Bite:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4374

dentist and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4362
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4365
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4092

Won't take a bath?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4166

Changing clothes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4131

This isn't consensual!! (re: toy mess):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4115

goals and living in the moment:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4102

non-coercive, but reasonable bedtimes, boundaries, etc?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4014
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4023
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4030
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4035


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Dietary Question:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8394

CL and dogs: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8407

Question about bedtime:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8437

Dd doesn't like her cousin, should I get involved:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8402

rage, why parenting is hard:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8314

Neighbor and I parent differently:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8288

Help! 4 YO DS wants to learn to use the stove:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8357

Selling the house:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8333

Spinning Plates...at Bedtime...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8305

Being aware of our cycles:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8278

When your own cup won't fill:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8216

Toddlers and 'discipline' (long):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8143

Struggling with late nights and poop, and lots of other fun stuff:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8178

toys and storage space and not wanting a ton of STUFF:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8176

Speaking of Food Issues...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8108

To Stay in School or Not:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8048

Struggling with late nights:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8092

In-laws Testing Parenting Values and Meeting the Needs of dh:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/8010

4 year old Tantrum over Junk Food:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7967

HUGE messes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7951

Video games & my 7 year old:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7915

thumbsucking woes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7858

moving and downsizing:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7855

If you had to choose just one book...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7784


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

cl responses to hitting? :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7641

Hitting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7690

Toddlers and hitting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7606

Night time and Naps:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7587

Ds doesn't want me to leave the house without him:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7595

Bathing Short Cuts:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7564

When partners disagree:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7454
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6948

When spouse parenting styles differ:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7417

personal possesions or community property?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7449

Sleep issues: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7367

How do you deal with defiance?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7339

The Highchair story:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6854

Waiting in the proverbial parking
lot:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6671

slowing down: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6788

How do you deal with authority figures in society?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6666

Helping shy child manage attention from adults:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6663

When My Buttons Are Pushed:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6736

Ds and food: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5348

Re: choosing friend:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6261

there is no right or wrong in anything?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6323

Authority vs. CL (or...Dh vs. Me):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6200

car seats and meeting the need:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5838

very attached...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5683

Splinter in her foot!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/6067

Help me understand - why some cant 'do' CL?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5953

Waldorf Discipline...? and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5982
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5488

How do you cope with the rest of the world? - feeling lonely:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5789

Potty learning... or lack thereof!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5745

Taking care of myself:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5694

disconnected:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5648

"violence": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5613

If your child won't let you socialize...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5606

cutting nails:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5518

music lessons:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7210

Suggestions to help me night wean consenually:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7203

Montessori sensitive periods and CL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7139

excluding/bullying behaviour in young children:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7187

Wanting ones own way? How to handle?:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7129

need some help: independent toileting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7067

Child centeredness?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/7024

Finding it hard to deal with others and 'praise'...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4745

clean-up and kids:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/5073

Reccommended reading request:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4984

can't get enough of me!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...g/message/4982

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Please do post particular issues to the yahoogroup. There are over 800 families there who are resources to support you in your journey. But I hope this will help to answer some of the process and philosophy questions related to seeking mutually agreeable solutions with little people.

*CL website:* http://www.consensual-living.com/
*CL Yahoogroup:* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

*Original CL Thread:* http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ght=consensual

Pat


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i do wish there was a subforum on this. its a lot to take in all at once, it would help to discuss one thing at a time for me, to get a better understanding of how it applies in day to day life. I like the concept, but find parts of it just totally overwhelming. I read how to talk so kids will listen, and I am going to read unconditional parenting. I feel like my parenting is heading in this direction, but I think my LIFE should be heading in this direaction. im definitely not there yet though. I wish there was a CL board. My head is spinning right now...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

You are welcome to post specific questions to the yahoogroup also.









Pat


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## henny penny (Mar 26, 2008)

Taking notes. Lots of reading here.........


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## barefootmama0709 (Jun 25, 2009)

I am finding that this thread really ties into the way I would like to be raising my son-I am very inclined to just let him do as he likes most of the time as long as he isn't hurting himself or anyone else. (He can't eat or paint with the Desitin, for example, but he can smear edible fingerpaint on his head if he really wishes to..he is washable!). I do have many questions though.
My ODS is only 20 months-how does the concept of consensual living and freedom of choice tie into things like bedtime? He is pretty willing to go to bed when he's tired-he crawls in and lays down. What about the nights when he's obviously tired and fighting sleep?
What about naps? He needs one, takes one...isn't always enthused about it though.
How do I implement PLing? He is indicating that he is ready to try the potty...would it be considered consensual if I introduce it??
What do I do if he hits his baby brother??
What if he wants to do something that's obviously dangerous like go into the road?? There obviously isn't a compromise for this sort of situation...do I resort to redirection??
Sorry if my questions seem ignorant or silly...I am at a transitional point with ODS and would like to handle it in a way that makes him feel respected. I have more questions but I can't think of them right now...thanks in advance for any input!


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

We practice consensual living, though we are still learning and growing as a family. I have done a lot of reading, thinking, and it is a constant struggle to work on letting go of the "control" mindset.

It frustrates me that people (IRL mostly) think that consensual living means child-centered living, or basically not parenting and letting your child do whatever they want. The basis of consensual living includes everyone involved, not just focused on the child getting his/her way in each situation because that's what the child wants to do. I believe with consensual living you *can* say no when it is needed, but with respect and while offering other alternatives, age appropriate explanations, etc. As a parent, though I practice consensual living, I still feel as if it's my duty to be sure my sick baby takes medicine she needs to get well even if she doesn't want to do it at the moment, or to be certain my toddler doesn't run in the road despite the fact that she thinks it's a fun place to play, or to tell my child we have to go to the grocery store to buy food even if she does not want to if there are no other options at the time. I think the most difficult part about living consensually is to be able to figure out in what instances your child isn't old enough to judge for themselves, like when taking medicine, and to respond in a respectful way rather than a strict authoritarian way. Does that make sense?

So when my toddler wanted to run in the road, I stopped her. I told her it was dangerous. On the occasions where she actually ran into the road or out in a parking lot I would cry out for her to stop and even when she was small she would understand the emotion in my voice--fear and worry, urgency. When she was too young to fully understand to not run away, if she got it in her head that she was going to run in the road constantly while we were out or something, we would just go inside. If we had to be out or we were in a parking lot I would offer alternatives--slings and carriers, stroller, piggy back, shoulders, grocery cart, holding hands, even holding a piece of her clothing when she was opposed to holding hands.

Sometimes gentle redirection is all you can do. After all, a toddler is not mature enough to fully understand and make decisions for themselves in all situations! I think that's the fine line between letting your kid do whatever they want or being a parent who is mindful and respectful.

The nap issue is kind of along the same vein. It's a fine line again. Sometimes toddlers and young children are tired but aren't mature enough to go to sleep. But you also don't want to force them. What do you do? When my DD doesn't want to go to bed (she's almost 3 now) we explain to her that daddy has to go to bed because he gets up early for work. Momma is tired. Living consensually, she has to learn to respect our needs as well as meet her own needs. So we find a way to compromise--she can watch tv shows in bed with us while we sleep or play quietly with the toys we select and bring to bed, but she can't get up and run and play and wake up the entire house. When she was less toddler and more of a baby it was difficult because she couldn't understand the idea that we also have needs...I think she needed us to rock her and nurse her and not give up on getting her to sleep even though she was fighting to keep herself awake when she was obviously exhausted.

I've found when you avoid making something a power struggle in the early toddler years then the behavior easily resolves itself once the child is old enough to understand better.

When there is hitting involved I acknowledge my initial reaction--frustration, anger, or whatever it may be--and then I put that aside and think of how DD must be feeling. Why she might need to hit--is she frustrated, overwhelmed, tired, feeling powerless, etc. Then I respond appropriately. Sometimes that means removing ourselves from the situation if she is overwhelmed. Other times she just needs me to remind her that hitting hurts and to ask her what's wrong.

Potty learning--I think it is consensual if you introduce the potty, just don't force him to do anything. Sit him on it if he is relaxed and interested. Don't make him sit on it or bribe him to sit on it. Let him watch you (and DH) in the bathroom, talk about it with him. It's fine to introduce new things as long as you follow his lead and are responsive to how he feels.

I think consensual living looks different for every family, it's so subjective to the personalities of the people in your family and your living situation.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

bump.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

dd is almost 9.

i have practised CL right from the beginning before i even knew it existed. between CL and Non violent communication i would say dd and i have a pretty good relationship.

as an older kid i see the results of my parenting philosophy.

at camp where everyone was sharing about how people help each other out dd brought up that she was grateful to have a mommy like me because i respect her by listening to her and allowing her to be herself - even when its not a nice self. when she later spoke to the teacher (who asked her more because she was curious since dd gave such a out of the box reply) she said the one thing she really appreciates about me is that she always feels respected in our house. that there is an understanding in our house and that she feels heard and her opinions matter.

all the stuff i worried about as a toddler - being forced to put on clothes to go for the doctors appt - in the long run didnt matter because they were lone issues that happened rarely.


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## Mittsy (Dec 29, 2009)

Anyone have any advice on how to handle food allergies, being almost tv-free, and being a 1 car family? To explain more, dd and I have food allergies so we are a gluten/soy/sugar/artifical free household, but when we go out ds always wants to eat others food, we want him to stick to the diet as it makes things easier and everyone is healthier/happier on it.... but explaining this to him makes him really mad. We are a Waldorf family so are almost tv-free, we allow 1 movie on the weekend, the kids have both agreed to this but we're still hearing lots of grumbling about tv during the week, I'm not sure what to do here since limiting media is very important to us. And, lastly like I said we are a 1 car family for a variety of reasons, only problem is ds almost never feels like going to pick up dh from work, unfortunately he's too young to be at home alone and we don't have anybody really close by to watch him so he *has* to come with us.

Help please!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

We have started a *Parenting with Joy, Trust and Love* Facebook page to share Consensual Living info and discussions.

Pat Robinson


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