# what do you think about this? warning: re abortion



## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

ok i'm not looking for any flames or debates or whatever, i'm just really curious about what others think of this. and i want to clearly state that i am pro-choice, just fyi.

i heard on the news the other night that a wichita abortion doc (i think tiller is his name, someone correct me if i'm wrong) is performing free abortions on saturday to mark the anniversary of r v. w. now is it just me or is that somehow kind of f***ed up? i'm having a hard time getting my head around that one. to me it puts a sort of flippant spin on something that is a serious issue, i mean do they get a balloon too?!









i can't call it but i'm not in the trenches every day trying to keep it legal either. perhaps the intent was good but i thought it was in bad taste. is this just a hangover from my conservative republican upbringing or not? i'm interested to hear some other thoughts on this.


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## midnight mom (Feb 4, 2003)

I agree with you and I am completely pro-choice. It's bad taste and does not set the right tone for something as emotional and serious as having an abortion.

It's one thing to be grateful for the wonderful freedom of choice we have from roe v. wade, but this is uncalled for.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

It seems in poor taste to me as well and I am pro-choice. But on the flip side of that, I don't know what they numbers are like for his clinic, he may be filling a need. I think that to prohibit one getting an abortion based on cost is another way of prohibiting abortion period, so I can see where he is doing something he may feel is needed.


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## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

I would like to know if this a substantiated story or if it is a rumor/hoax put out by some group like Operation Rescue.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

uke

uke

uke


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

i don't think it is a hoax. i heard it on the fox news out of kansas city. considering some of the things that have transpired at the wichita abortion clinic this seems in keeping with the "war" that is going on down there. i think the number of procedures performed is pretty high. as far as i know it is the only clinic within a large radius. being in the middle of the bible belt this clinic is under constant scrutiny and both sides seem to retaliate with tactics to bring heavy media attention, such as this.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

of course abortions are prohibitively expensive for many, if not most women. so if you are pro-choice, why would you oppose free abortions?







choice isn't really choice if it's only available to women with $$.
(ps i think mamathistle is right, it probably is a hoax, but i wish it were true, and not just for one day in wichita.)


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Its real!

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...al/7752831.htm

His reasoning does make sense (IMO):

Quote:

Last January, he provided free abortions to protest a policy that allows federal money to cover the cost of abortion for a low-income woman only when a pregnancy threatens her life or is a result of rape or incest.
http://www.arkcity.net/stories/011303/com_0003.shtml

I assume he can't afford to offer them free every day of the year, but figures one day he can. Apparently his clinic is under constant protest, not only because he is a performer of partial-birth abortions but because, he (not his words of course) "offers "baptismal ceremonies" for dead, partial-birth-aborted babies" (http://www.kkk.com/kansas_update.htm).

I would hope that he insists the women come in before Saturday for an initial consult, but as for having the proceedures themselves be free that day--- as they are only available to Medicaid qualified women who cannot afford, I assume, the $325 the clinic is quoted as charging, I don't have a problem with it. Because of the protests, I do hope the women who go in that day realize that they *are* making a political statement and that it very well could get ugly.

Kay


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

tiredx2, thanks for the info! that explains it better.

i think the way it was presented on the news was pretty biased. it was something like he was "giving away free abortions" and to "celebrate" the date. the wording and the tone could have been better. i think i'll send the news station a scathing email about it. i haven't sent anyone a scathing email today so, tag! they're it!


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

I can see Fox News using this tone and wording. I feel that if there is a need for low-income women than he is doing a service to these women. It is a high price for many I assume. I know he is under constant and I mean threatening 24/7 because of his work and he has been featured in many pro-chioce articles I have read. Thanks for the info Kay.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

didn't the rallying cry used to be "Free abortion, on demand?" Why should those who can afford it be able to have an abortion and those who can't, not? Abortion is legal but due to our class system here in the usa, it's not accessable to many many poor women, who are least equipped to deal with the alternatives.

If the tone of the news story made it seem kind of messed up that's probably the reporter, not the doctor who will likely take a loss for offering a free service to women in need.


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## barbara (Feb 13, 2002)

IMHO, it just looks like more tactics to bring heavy media attention, and it appears to be working for them.

It's too bad people don't seem to care about these kinds of issues until the media or fringe groups whip up something sensational.

Maybe we need to do something sensational to get the public to recognize that slavery and still exists, but then, where would the political gain be in that?







:


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## SageRibbon (Dec 30, 2003)

It's not the pricetag that is offensive.
It is the flippancy and "used car salesman" -esque attitude that is disturbing.
Abortion shouldn't be done at a drive-through window. It should be accompanied with other medical tests, counseling, and follow-up counseling.

What's next? Buy one get one free?
Sheesh.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Most likely, women who would go to this guy on the free day are women who would have wanted an abortion anyway. I don't think there are pregnant women saying "I've gotta get me one of those!" or non-pregnant women wishing they were so they could get one.

And yes, what disturbs me is the women who have to pay for it when they can't really afford it. Perhaps if insurance had covered birth control, they wouldn't need an abortion in the first place.


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## SageRibbon (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I don't think there are pregnant women saying "I've gotta get me one of those!"
*
Hahahahahahahaha!

Yes, good point.
I don't think abortions should be easy to get. You should have to really think about the decision intelligently.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Maybe not, but it is possible that women who, if given more time to decide, wouldn't choose abortion after all, will get it done on that day because they can't afford it otherwise. They could feel pressure to do it then so they don't have to pay for it later.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

That just sickens me. I don't even want to get started on the many reasons why this is wrong.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

There are time constraints put on women anyway - abortion becomes less safe in the 2nd trimester. It's not something you can afford to think about for very long. Which is too bad, because a lot of women regret it later.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

We have no evidence, though, that there is not an initial consult *required* before your free abortion that day. Do we?


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*There are time constraints put on women anyway - abortion becomes less safe in the 2nd trimester.*
Yeah, but unfortunately that doesn't stop women from having them









Either way, it still makes me want to uke


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

That doctor and that clinic are disgusting andthey are criminal and make me even MORE MORE MORE pro life and MORE MORE MORE against the liberal notion that abortion on demadnd is just fine.

pigs.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Oatmeal---

Would you care to describe how a doctor trying to liberate poor women makes him a "pig"? I am interested. I can totally understand being anti-abortion, well I guess I mean anti-choice because I myself am anti-abortion so that's not really very understanding of me









But, given the current set-up in our country where lower income single mothers are at a distinct disadvantage on about EVERY possible measure (not knocking lower income single mothers)--- how does that make the Dr. a pig.

If someone wants/needs an abortion and can't come up with $300 for it, what makes anyone think they can come up with the money for food & health care for a healthy pregnancy? Once again, I have to state my belief that the government needs to start making FINANCIAL decisions that make financial sense, rather than onces based on part of the populations religious leanings.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

all i have to say is good for him! i am for "abortion on demand" if a woman feels she cannot have the baby , then do what this country has made legal.

and why anyone would trust the wording of faux news is beyond me. aren't we all smarter than that? especially at this site.

if you are against abortion don't have one. and if abortion is made illegal , more women will die from illegal abortions.

this is really simple. people are complicating the issue.

i've had a 2nd trimester abortion and it was not fun. but it was necessary.i think about the baby everyday. i even named him. so this is also an emotional issue

good for him. maybe i 'll call and thank him. he is trully doing a service for families in need.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:

it is possible that women who, if given more time to decide, wouldn't choose abortion after all, will get it done on that day because they can't afford it otherwise. They could feel pressure to do it then so they don't have to pay for it later.
all the more reason why free abortions (and health care in general) should be available everyday, so that women can make a real choice, one thats not based on $$.


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## SageRibbon (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*

this is really simple. people are complicating the issue.

*
Really? Simple like your physical rights that keep you from being assaulted or killed by another person.

See, for example, my neighbor has a right to punch the air and swing his arms around in a violent manner. However, his rights end where my face begins.

Now, to me, that's pretty simple. But I guess if it's a baby that can't hold a press conference on how it sucks to be killed, then I guess it's ok.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

It's this doctor's choice to provide free abortions. That's his right. Since this is a "choice" issue, then I say if you choose to have sex and get pregnant, handle your business. If it means going on a payment plan or borrowing $ from a friend to get the abortion (where free abortions like this aren't available) if you can't afford it, that's what should be done. I am sick of the mentality that it's everyones else's fault. Take responsibility.

My Disclaimer: This does not include pregnancies that result from incest or rape as that wasn't a result of your choice.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

My Disclaimer: This does not include pregnancies that result from incest or rape as that wasn't a result of your choice.
If poor women have to "justify" their abortions by admitting they were raped, and rich women just have to pay and don't have to explain anything...that sounds like classism. Poor women constantly have to explain their reproductive decisions. The university is asking why I chose to have another child, and it makes me sick because they would never ask that of a middle-class graduate; I'm the "poor student" who hasn't earned the right to be a part of the breeder caste yet.







:

I'm sure if I wanted an abortion I would have to "explain myself" as well. Some people just haven't earned the right to make choices about reproduction, it seems. Although a woman with money may be just as uninformed, she won't have to justify anything.

But about abortion, I don't really know the procedure - do they ask everyone to explain their circumstances, even at the private clinics?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

If poor women have to "justify" their abortions by admitting they were raped, and rich women just have to pay and don't have to explain anything...that sounds like classism.
























When we got pg with DD, I honestly hemmed and hawwed about what our plans were (she was planned and I *knew* that wouldn't be looked on favorably). Of course, DH dancing around in joy probably tipped our hand a bit :LOL

What I don't understand: The same people who don't want a poor woman to have access to abortion are often the same who want to cut welfare, aid to children, etc...! Once abstinance is out the window, *what* are these people supposed to do?!?!

Edited to add that there are appx 120,000 domestic adoptions (http://www.thestork.com/comparing.html) yearly and 857,000 abortions (2000, http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact.htm). So, just saying, "Put them up for adoption" is *not* an adequate answer.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

The same people who don't want a poor woman to have access to abortion are often the same who want to cut welfare, aid to children, etc...!
It seems like they stop caring about your "rights" as soon as you're out of the womb. Fetal rights, they love...but not child's rights.

I hear the Children's Health Insurance Program, a federal low-income health plan for children, will insure unborn children but not pregnant women. How would a doctor provide care to the fetus that didn't include care to the mother?


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I think it's great that a doctor would donate his services to women who need them but can't afford them, for abortions or any other medical procedure.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*If poor women have to "justify" their abortions by admitting they were raped, and rich women just have to pay and don't have to explain anything...that sounds like classism. Poor women constantly have to explain their reproductive decisions. The university is asking why I chose to have another child, and it makes me sick because they would never ask that of a middle-class graduate; I'm the "poor student" who hasn't earned the right to be a part of the breeder caste yet.







:

I'm sure if I wanted an abortion I would have to "explain myself" as well. Some people just haven't earned the right to make choices about reproduction, it seems. Although a woman with money may be just as uninformed, she won't have to justify anything.

But about abortion, I don't really know the procedure - do they ask everyone to explain their circumstances, even at the private clinics?*
No one should have to justify their choice. Abortion is legal and if that is the choice a woman makes, be it poor or rich it shouldn't matter. I don't understand your comment about reproductive choices...IMO every time a woman has sexual relations, whether poor or rich she made a choice; obviously there is a chance she could conceive or receive an STD and that fact is well known. It has nothing to do with their financial status. Abstinence is the only 100% effective birth control.
If you've felt discriminated against and had to justify your choice to have another child, that is a whole other discussion.
You've got pro-"choice" on one side, and the anti-abortionists on the other (what about the babies "choice" to live?). So it all boils down to "choice" and has nothing to do with financial classification and everything to do with taking responsibilty for your reproduction IMO.

I also do not understand what my disclaimer had to do with justification of choice and how you jumped from rape and incest which are crimes against persons, to the "poor" woman and the "rich" woman classifications.
There is no justification for rape or incest and it doesn't matter whether the woman is poor or rich. Those are crimes not choices. There are many victims funds which financially support situations like this.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I also do not understand what my disclaimer had to do with justification of choice and how you jumped from rape and incest which are crimes against persons, to the "poor" woman and the "rich" woman classifications.
Maybe I'm thinking of a different discussion. Some claim that abortions should only be available to women who were raped, and some claim that they should only be free for such women. A woman who was able to pay would not have to tell her story of victimization.

My concern with this is, women are already not believed enough when they report a rape. Rules like this would make people less likely to believe her - "She's just saying she was raped to get an abortion."

Also, if the rapist is your spouse, it's very hard to prove it was rape.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Greaseball...I know only too well having worked in law enforcement, that rape victims are seldom treated as what they are...the victim...most times they are treated with an air of distaste and as if they were lying. Surprisingly enough, I have worked on cases involving many men. If you think it's hard for a woman to come forward and admit rape, you should listen to and try to help the male victims I've met.
Thank you for clarifying your thought process regarding my disclaimer.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

T
I was a police cadet for a year, and we were told that when interviewing a rape victim, we were never to look at her.

Great way to make her feel dirty and ashamed.









I know a lot more men are raped than we hear about. They can even be raped by women. People think "a man would enjoy being raped by a woman" or "Men should be able to defend themselves" or "only gay men get raped" but it's not true. I volunteer at a rape crisis center that serves men as well as women, which is one of the reasons I picked the place.


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

It makes me sad to live in a society that is so callous that killing an unborn baby is a choice and people think it is okay. The logic of the liberal left is unbelievable, they consider spanking abuse and killing a choice. Violence agianst another human being is either right or wrong and shouldn't be able to be changed depending on the situation. You do have a choice you can have sex or not that should be the choice not is this convenient or not.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yes, it should always be a choice whether we have sex or not. That would cut down on abortion right there.


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*Violence agianst another human being is either right or wrong and shouldn't be able to be changed depending on the situation.*
THANK YOU AGAIN


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

So, we're agreed that spanking should be illegal? Great!

That said, anyone going to throw out *positive* ideas? Instead of you shouldn't do X, Y and Z, what can our society to do decrease abortions (which did happen through the 90s at least).


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:

So, we're agreed that spanking should be illegal? Great!
Yes, it should.

Quote:

what can our society to do decrease abortions
We used to think better birth control education, abstinence education in teens and assistance offered to pregnant women would help but it doesn't seem to be helping anymore.

I'm getting discouraged.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

One thing I would like is if society would go back to the original "It takes a whole village to raise a child" instead of the current "Why should we help you when you can't keep your legs closed?"

And if we could determine exactly what fetal rights are. I know a lot of anti-abortion people who think nothing of smoking during pregnancy. What about the fetus' rights to a nicotine-free environment? And, of course, lots of pro-lifers spank their children.

And realize that you can't advocate for fetal care without doing the same for maternal care. Healthy children generally come from healthy mothers.

A fetus' rights should not end at birth. Wouldn't people who truly care about babies - as opposed to religious or moral values alone - be interested in seeing babies and children given the same rights and support as fetuses?

I see everyone's children as everyone's responsibility. One may counter that it's not my job to help mothers whose pregnancies are a result of "irresponsible" or "immmoral" behavior (curiously, this is not said about the father!) and that "they made their bed, they should lie in it." I say,
_it does concern me. I have a god-given duty to help out. I am responsible._


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

I just popped in to see how this thread was doing, read page three only (and the first couple of posts yesterday) Oops...it became a debate about abortion again, didn't it ? Well, okay, but what exactly is the purpose of such a debate? If it is to determine the morality of ending the life of an unborn fetus, well, everyone is on equal ground and we should remember that no one is a moral authority. Such arguments should be presented with this in mind, right?
It is emotionally painful to think about, and those who make that choice suffer more than anyone, and more than those who tell them they are doing wrong.

As for the free abortion thing from the op, who would have an abortion just cause it's free? Obviously you would be having one anyway, and most that have them are doing it because of poverty. Maybe someone has pointed this out already anyway.

Also:
Originally posted by sleeping queen
"Violence agianst another human being is either right or wrong and shouldn't be able to be changed depending on the situation."

I seem to recall that sleeping queen supports the Iraq war, from her other posts.
Veeeeeeery interesting.
Is violence wrong, or isn't it then???
tell me!!!


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:

What about the fetus' rights to a nicotine-free environment? And, of course, lots of pro-lifers spank their children.
I completely agree. I quit smoking for both prior pregnancies because my babies deserve a nicotine-free womb. And I've remained smoke-free so this baby will not have to experience it at all.

Yes, lots of pro-lifers spank their children but I disagree with spanking children, or hitting another person for any reason.
I also oppose war and violence against humanity in any form.

Quote:

And realize that you can't advocate for fetal care without doing the same for maternal care. Healthy children generally come from healthy mothers.
Oh but I do, dear Greaseball. I do. That's why I'm going to school to become a midwife. I want to be in the thick of it, and I'm going to do 20% pro bono work.

Quote:

Wouldn't people who truly care about babies be interested in seeing babies and children given the same rights and support as fetuses?
All the pro-lifers I know of also advocate for babies' and children's rights as well. Myself included.


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## isleta (Nov 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dallaschildren_
*
We were NOT debating abortion in case you didn't notice. We were discussing a Dr. who was giving free abortions to patients.*
Thank you!!!!
















He is doing a service. These women might have to go to other means, even dangerous ones, to recieve medical procedures. I personally thank him for this day and his courage to do what is consitiutionally right in America.

It does not go into detail regarding a pre-visit, but planned parenthood and other counceling services are available and were probably informed of this day to do referals.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*And, of course, lots of pro-lifers spank their children.*
Oh, come on. You can't possibly equate spanking children with purposely killing them!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It would be nice if this doctor offered other health services for free. Is he an OBgyn? Would he provide free prenatal care on certain days, or free deliveries?

Women have always had abortions, even before it was a medical procedure. Sometimes they were safe, sometimes not. To me, ending legal abortion would be like banning all guns - it doesn't look at the deeper issue, and really wouldn't solve much in the long run.








T
I once had insurance that would cover an abortion or a c-section, but not vaginal deliveries or contraception. Someone there must really hate women.








T
I read another post about questions to ask midwives, and one member said she would ask if the midwife was pro-choice. I wonder why? Would it really matter? Even if a client had a previous abortion, wouldn't a midwife still accept her?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Oh, come on. You can't possibly equate spanking children with purposely killing them!
I wasn't - I was giving examples of the way fetal-rights advocates sometimes do not believe in child rights. These are the same people who believe men should have stiffer penalties for beating pregnant women than for beating non-pregnant women. Fetuses have a right not to be hurt; children don't.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Urg all around I think it's a publicity stunt and possibly a bad idea and I'm prochoice btw. But there has to be another way to get abortion covered by insurance for lower income women. I know my insurance will not cover it except if the mother is in a fatal situation if she continues the pregnancy, says that right in the list of benefits book.

Or at the very least all insurance should cover birth control. Although that won't 100% solve the problem as all bc has contridictions and failure rates. But it might cut down on the problem of needing abortions if everyone was allowed/offered free bc, to include condoms as some people can't take hormonal stuff.








T

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*One thing I would like is if society would go back to the original "It takes a whole village to raise a child"..*
I don't know what "village" you live in but I sure hope it's better than mine if you feel that way. I am the freak on the street who doesn't beat her kids. My one neighbor believes the village raising a child is a good idea because she thinks everyone should spank and even wants schools to bring back corporal punishment.







Another moved to the next town over so her child could attend a school that with a parental permission slip that one school still allows paddling and said she signed it! The rest of my neighbors kids consider "belt" a scary word if you catch my drift







. I do not like it on my street at all!

But if that village was mdc I can see your point







.








T quote by greaseball
I once had insurance that would cover an abortion or a c-section, but not vaginal deliveries or contraception. Someone there must really hate women.
*wow I guess so!*

And now back to the original issue







.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

That village thing is an old African proverb. I interpret it as "we all must care about one another's children." That's why I'm glad when my tax dollars go to "other people's kids" instead of resenting it.

I also think no one can raise a child without love and support from others - not even rich people.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

I have removed many posts from this thread so that it can be returned to the board for discussion.

Please tread carefully here. At one point we found it necessary to impose a moratorium on posting about abortion because so much pain and hurt was brought into the community through words that were tossed (and thrown) without compassion or respect. If you cannot discuss the topic without harshnesss and personal finger pointing and accusations then please do not post.

Any further inappropriate posting will put this thread off the board permanently.

Peace everyone!


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## SageRibbon (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*That village thing is an old African proverb. I interpret it as "we all must care about one another's children." That's why I'm glad when my tax dollars go to "other people's kids" instead of resenting it.

I also think no one can raise a child without love and support from others - not even rich people.*

















T
This is one of my most favorite addages. I am thinking for my daughter's one-year birthday party, "It takes a village..." is going to be the theme. Everyone should bring a gift from their life that will teach my daughter something and help "raise" her. For example, my cousin who is a dental hygenist is bring a toothbrush, some paste, floss....







It will be inexpensive and the gifts will really be useful. Do you think this is a lame/weird idea that I should scrap? I am kind of excited about it but haven't fully made up my mind.

Ok, sorry for the extremely







T post...now carry on! :LOL


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

SageRibbon---

I think that's a beautiful idea. DD was just yesterday asking what she got from who for her 1st birthday and it was sooo hard to remember. DC won't really care anyway, and it will be a memory you can talk about forever!

Kay


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Urg all around I think it's a publicity stunt and possibly a bad idea and I'm prochoice btw.
Hmm, I don't think I would call it a "publicity stunt." Generally I think of publicity stunts as benifiting the company/individual performing them. In this case, he is trying to draw attention to the inequity of reproductive rights in America---- and the fact that some of the people the very least prepared to bring a child into the world are the same ones that have the least options.


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

cynthia, thank you. as far as i was concerned this thread could have just been deleted though. i wasn't on here for about a day and a half and missed the "debate" but i can only imagine...







:

anyhow, i guess the whole reason that the original subject bothers me so much is simply because of the inequity of the whole thing. it just makes me so sad i could cry. it makes me realize that women are still not valued in many ways, that this is still very much a patriarchal society and that we have a long way to go.

imo, for so long women have not been in control of their own bodies. the doctors have dictated to women what is "normal" and supposedly the best thing for them. sometimes i wonder if there would be as many abortions if women were *really* in control of their own bodies. like if we had our midwives back, our wise old mothers and women who could teach the younger generation to be strong women, educated about their own bodies and reproductive issues. for me, health class just didn't do the trick, i ended up pregnant at 18 and hadn't a clue about anything.

i could go off about this forever but i'll spare everyone bc i have to take dd to preschool now. maybe more later.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

mamathistle,
I think you have a very intelligent perspective about the position women have been in for so long regarding reproductive issues. That along with poverty are the two main contributing factors for abortion. If only the debate would move away from moralizing to prevention. That said, I am glad this thread is here.
The more thought given to this, the better, even if people lose it sometimes.

I am still waiting for a response to the question I asked a few posts ago.
If violence against another human being is either right or wrong, no, exceptions, then why is the Iraq war (or any war) okay when abortion is never okay? What about the death penalty? The USA is one of the most vocally anti-abortion, and also the most vocally pro-gun, pro-war, and pro-corporal punishment.
Someone, please explain how this makes sense.







:


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

If poor women have to "justify" their abortions by admitting they were raped, and rich women just have to pay and don't have to explain anything...that sounds like classism.
ITA, but, on the other hand....
who knows? Maybe this doctor had this idea because he's a classist and doesn't think these poor women should be having babies. We don't know him personally, so it's anybody's guess. A lot of, uh, more well-off people believe poor moms shouldn't have kids. And that they "multiply like rabbits", and so on. I grew up in a well-off, all-white suburb. I knew people like this







: Heck, my own grandparents were like this. Some people in my family still are uke


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

If violence against another human being is either right or wrong, no, exceptions, then why is the Iraq war (or any war) okay when abortion is never okay? What about the death penalty? The USA is one of the most vocally anti-abortion, and also the most vocally pro-gun, pro-war, and pro-corporal punishment.
Okay, I'm gonna bite. It's totally OT, so I'll apologize in advance







I don't know if starting a separate thread for debating abortion rights is an intelligent thing to do.
Lemme start off by saying, I am totally middle ground on this issue. I can see both sides sooooo clearly that I simply can't choose one or the other. One could say I'm neutral.
I will start off by saying we live in a white, male-dominated world. Few could argue that. And these men in power believe that they should control everything. They believe in an eye for an eye, they believe in good and bad, they believe that they are above women. This is slowly, slowly changing, one generation at a time.... but we still do not have balance.
Having absolute authority over one's reproductive system is one way to empower women. And most men don't like that idea. I mean, geez, look at the way most docs in the medical model of childbirth totally distrust women's bodies to function appropriately without intervention! Many feel that, just as women have a right to choose an unassisted birth, for example, they should also have a right to decide if they are ready or not to hand their baby over to this society. Many women also feel that they know themselves best, and they believe in giving the woman the power to decide if she is emotionally ready to carry a pregnancy, give birth and then either raise the baby or give it up for adoption. They feel that once you tell a woman what to feel and how to feel it, it's a slippery slope that may intrude on other aspects of their family and reproductive lives.
Sorry for the book.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

This whole post is








T :LOL

Greaseball, I can't quote right now urg but anyway...

Yeah I totally agree with _that_ village raising a child perspective. I guess I was just still rubbed the wrong way on that phrase from my neighbor saying that same thing a few days before in regards to everyone discipling everyone else's kids and I was still touchy.

I think alot of people think I'm nuts because I do care about everyone else's kids. If one of my neighbors kids is sick I worry and ask about how they are etc. And whenever someone's kid from one of the boards is sick I still worry eventhough I don't really "know" the person. I can't help but worry about sick/hurt kids and babies. I drive dh nuts sometimes :LOL especially when I get upset about other people and bad carseat use!

I do believe all tax dollars should benefit everyone, not just me. That's the problem now, so many people say well what's in it for me since I don't care about anyone else.

Sageribbon, I love that idea!!! Please don't scrap it and tell us how it goes if you do decide to go through with it







. Much better than a bunch of impractical junk.

I missed the big debate but if it was bad enough to remove some posts I guess I'm glad I did..


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

who knows? Maybe this doctor had this idea because he's a classist and doesn't think these poor women should be having babies.
That's true, I never thought of it that way! But now that you mention it, I know doctors who will tell poor women "Oh, with your condition, you could never give birth, so you need an abortion" while treating middle-class women with the same thing (usually something like diabetes) and being willing to deliver their babies.

My stepmother gave birth by c/s to a child that was said to have no chance of survival (28 weeks; she lived and is fine!). She happened to have private insurance. Women without insurance are offered the choice of a 3rd trimester abortion, rather than doing everything possible for the tiny chance of saving a child.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

Women without insurance are offered the choice of a 3rd trimester abortion, rather than doing everything possible for the tiny chance of saving a child.









Wow, I never thought about that before. I really wonder how much economics influences these enormous decisions in a woman's life.
Thank you for giving me another perspective on this issue.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*








Wow, I never thought about that before. I really wonder how much economics influences these enormous decisions in a woman's life.
Thank you for giving me another perspective on this issue.*
It is the MAIN factor in determining whether an abortion occurs or not!

candiland, I like your post earlier about female empowerment. It was quite eloquent. I was a bit confused about why you quoted me and said you were 'going to bite' and then didn't say a thing about what you quoted. it doesn't matter, of course, I was just wondering....


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Women without insurance are offered the choice of a 3rd trimester abortion, rather than doing everything possible for the tiny chance of saving a child.
I'm going to need some citation for that. The *only* person I have ever know to be "offered" (as a choice) a late term abortion had private insurance. They are hard to find and often not covered by medicaid, so I'm not sure I believe this on the surface.

Why I think that the OP doctor donates these as a protest is because that is what he said. His clinic usually offers abortion for appx $3-400, but Kansas Medicaid does not cover them. So, once a year he does them for lower-income women for free. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I do think he is doing this to help poor women, not because he thinks they don't have a right to reproduce...it was just interesting to hear another take on it.

As for sources for the other info, all I have is the experience of people I have known. Of course others are going to know people who have had the exact opposite experiences. It does cost more to keep a baby alive in the NICU for months than it does to have a 3rd tri abortion.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Abortion Providers Fewest in 30 Years

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

According to this article, while 44% of women will have an abortion in their lives (I wonder what they are counting in that?), 87% of counties in the US DO NOT have an abortion provider. *This* is certainly something we need to be concerned with.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

I was a bit confused about why you quoted me and said you were 'going to bite' and then didn't say a thing about what you quoted
Sorry, I should have explained it a bit more. When I said this:

Quote:

I will start off by saying we live in a white, male-dominated world. Few could argue that. And these men in power believe that they should control everything. They believe in an eye for an eye, they believe in good and bad, they believe that they are above women. This is slowly, slowly changing, one generation at a time.... but we still do not have balance.

Quote:

Having absolute authority over one's reproductive system is one way to empower women. And most men don't like that idea. I mean, geez, look at the way most docs in the medical model of childbirth totally distrust women's bodies to function appropriately without intervention!
I was simply stating that a lot of people view these issues as patriarchal control ones. As in, and eye for an eye, good vs. evil, that is their way of thinking.... hence, guns and war and manpower and whatnot. They can justify these things, and they also want to control women, as well.
Does it make any more sense to you now?


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Women do have control over their reproductive system. They can chose to abstain. When you make the choice to have sex there is always the possiblity of a pregnancy since no birth control is 100%. When you choose to abort then you are making a choose for someone else (the baby). The logic of abortion being about your reproductive system doesn't make sense.

The man who is giving away free abortions must not give any value to human life. How can he be so callous to a sensitive subject.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

When you choose to abort then you are making a choose for someone else (the baby).
But, by referring to the embryo/fetus you are staking a specific RELIGIOUS viewpoint to which the rest of the nation does not necessarily agree. In many people's view that sack of cells is NOT a baby with choices. Further, is not "human life" as you state in many peoples opinions (with respect you "must not give any value to human life").

In fact, I find it ironic that the life insurance for the Knights of Columbus (Catholic Fraternal Organization--- vehemently pro-life) will only assist a family financially for a funeral of a baby past 20 weeks gestation. Hmmm.

I also find it ironic that we cannot agree that the taking of adult human life is wrong--- and yet others are expected to accept that the taking of embrionic/fetal human life is always wrong.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Women do not always have the choice to abstain and control over their reproductive systems.

Many people who are pro-life are also against abortion in the case of rape.


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

yes, and it's interesting to think of whom would determine what was and was not rape should it ever come to that, and what the criteria for rape would be, and how a woman might be expected to 'prove' she was raped, and so on and so forth...


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

A baby conceived because of rape is not any less valuable. My dh is living proof of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Alas, with a lot of things in life, everyone must agree to disagree. The abortion debate is a slippery slope....... and to be respectful of everyone's opinions, does anyone else feel like the "debate" needs to stop here?


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## MaShroom (Jan 25, 2003)

yup. it just gets depressing.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Bummer.

Thanks to the OP, though, for bringing this story to my attention. It has been a topic of conversation off this board as well!

Kay


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## pie (Apr 7, 2006)

it gets to the point that I absolutely want to vomit.


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