# Barefoot kids and comments from strangers



## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

My two boys (ages 7 and 9) enjoy going barefoot in the summer, a practice which we support (we are a real barefoot type of family all the time). I don't just mean barefoot once in awhile in the summer, but 24/7. Once school goes out around the first of June, their shoes come off and they toss them to the back of their closets and don't wear them again until school starts near the beginning of September. We have discovered that there are a ton of places that don't mind kids (and/or adults) coming in barefoot: the library, post office, some dept. stores, parks, zoos, waterparks etc. etc. So we just basically let the boys go wherever shoeless and it doesn't often cause any undue problems. In fact, we have noticed that many places that post a "shoes required" policy don't really enforce it for kids. The only negative comes from some people (mainly senior citizens) who make comments, either to us, to the boys or under their breaths, that are not necessarily kind ("Hmmm...do you need shoes?" "My grandchildren have some shoes that I could give to you if you need them" "I didn't think barefeet were allowed in here" "The nerve of some parents" "Oh, look at those poor kids without shoes!"). While these are the minority of comments, and we often get positive comments from many people about how "cool" the boys look in the hot summer, I still just want to tell these people to mind their own business and that "NO! My boys aren't hurting for shoes!" We have plenty of money for shoes...we just choose to let them go barefoot if they want. Does anyone else experience this with their "barefoot babes" ? We plan on continuing to allow our boys to go barefoot as much as they like, wherever they like, but what are some strategies for dealing with the occasional not-so-nice commentary?


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## PortraitPixie (Apr 21, 2005)

Yeah--what's the deal?? My 12 month old ds has worn shoes maybe 3 times in his life. My mil is always worried about it.







making comments to dh, etc. I say--let the piggies be free! Ya know? He'll be wearing shoes soon enough.


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## scheelimama (Aug 2, 2003)

Well, my dd, age 2, loves to go barefoot and I often allow it, at the park, coffee shop, library, etc. I don't often get many negative comments, but when I do, it's usually from other moms, who say something like "I wouldn't let my child go barefoot around here." The reasons vary, from germs to sharp objects on the ground to getting athletes foot. I usually just blow it off and don't worry about it. I tell them that I don't like to worry needlessly about her, she's a kid and can handle going barefoot. At her age though, no one usually questions whether it's a money thing. Maybe it's more acceptable at 2 than at 7 or 9.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I'd probably just be saying something along the lines of "his feet, his choice" or whatever is appropriate to the situation. Whenever I've seen kids without shoes, I've never thought "oh that poor kid" or thought that the family couldn't afford shoes.

I however do not allow my son to walk around public places without shoes on. I am one of those 'paranoid' moms. But then again we live in a big city and the sidewalks are often filthy. I just today almost cut my foot on a broken bottle on the sidewalk and I was wearing sandals. Plus, the idea of our bare feet touching the public grossness just makes my stomach turn. So if I have any thought when I see kids without shoes, it's definitely more along the lines of "gee, I hope that kid doesn't hurt himself!"


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
We plan on continuing to allow our boys to go barefoot as much as they like, wherever they like, but what are some strategies for dealing with the occasional not-so-nice commentary?

How about just recognize that they're coming from a different place, smile, shrug, and keep going? It doesn't need to be a confrontation.









If you really feel the need to say something maybe just smile and say, "They like going without shoes."


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I just keep walking.

I would encourage you to discourage barefootedness in grocery stores or in dept. stores that carry pictures, crystal, or decorative glass. I have worked in both, and the amount of glass that gets broken and left behind is scary. Those times are what flip flops are for.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I put my children in shoes - not because some nitwit tells me too, but because there are places in my city that aren't safe at all to go shoeless. I can show you a scar on my foot from flipflops not preventing a shard of glass from slicing and dicing my food. Glass is the least of my worries once they start walking.

But at home, they go shoeless the entire time because I do too.


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## obeyacts2 (May 29, 2004)

when the elderly comment about bare feet it is for a reason. In depression days. that still loom large in the minds of the elderly, the only people who went barefoot were ones who couldnt afford shoes for their kids. It was considered a shame. They probably aren't being deliberately critical, it just brings back some old and not so pl;easant memories.

Laura


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

We are often barefoot too. I would either ignore it, or just say "They like being barefoot, but thanks."


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I think my first reaction would be that there was something going on. I don't see shoeless inside public places as being the "norm". It would be like a kid walking in without a shirt on.
I'm not saying that its wrong but it would look weird to me.


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## em&namama (Apr 26, 2005)

I have to agree with Megan. I am the queen of barefoot but if I saw a 7 & 9 yr. old in like a store or something I would probably look twice. I definitely wouldn't say anything though and to tell you the truth I wouldn't think anything negative but just think it's different. Shoot I would love to never have to wear shoes :LOL I have found with my daughter, who takes after her mama, that she always seems to be injuring her feet. We went to the park yesterday and sure enough she started screaming. I had to calm her down, wash it, put a bandaid on and she was crying for a good 15 minutes. In all fairness it was pretty bad with a lot of blood. I always feel so bad for her and having had these experiences so often that would be a reason I may worry about your kids if I saw them, not because I was nosy or wanted to get into your business or judge you. But alas my daughter still wants to go barefoot so I totally understand that too.


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

Being barefoot in NZ is pretty much the norm I even do my grocery shopping in barefeet sometimes. I have had more blisters from wearing shoes than cuts from glass when I'm barefoot.


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## Emzachsmama (Apr 30, 2004)

As long as the kids are in our yard (or friends and family etc) or at the waterpark they can go barefoot but anywear else I want them wearing shoes. I do worry about the ickyness aspect but I am more concerned about them getting cut. I also think it is proper to wear shoes in public building like libraries and stores.


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## DaisyRose (Feb 13, 2005)

I encourage barefootedness because I dislike communicating the idea that the earth is very dangerous and treacherous and something we need to be protected from.

Sure, you need to pay attention, and watch where you step, but learning where to put your foot down is an essential skill that going barefoot helps to hone.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I think that if an establishment posts a "wear shoes" sign, you should respect that. It reminds me of people who park in spaces marked with "no parking" signs or cut in front of others. We call those people "special people" because the rules clearly don't apply to them.









I'm all for going barefoot, but not when it means disregarding the regulations of an establishment.

Namaste!

Ps. It's not the earth we need protection from, it's what humans do to the earth that we need to be protected from.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

I am surprised they let you go in the library with no shoes. Our library nailed my son when he was 1.5 year old b/c he had no shoes on. They told me he needed to be carried the whole time and we couldn't put him down.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

I think there is a difference between a barefoot toddler and older children.
When my dd was under two, she rarely wore shoes.
The only thing that I am curious about it is the extremely hot asphalt in parking lots.
Isn't that a painful problem for your kids?
I live near the ocean and it's usually around 90 or above in the summer, and I would at least wear flip flops or something before trotting across that stuff.
Even going to the mailbox requires some protection in the summer.
Not to mention stepping in gum, dog matter, etc., which is in abundance in many public parking lots and places (grass, etc).
And does it become a problem when your kids then come home and put their feet on the couch or in their beds, or on the floor?
Regarding the comments that people make (I guess, such as me, here in this forum), I, too, like a previous poster, would just ignore it--no reason to make it a confrontation.
I do think if there is a sign posted that says shoes required (there are many here in a resort area near the ocean) that the rule of thumb would be to follow it. As someone else mentioned, the rules are for all of us to follow. And since the business pays the rent, I would say that they have the last word.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I have one son who prefers barefoot. We bring shoes in the van and he puts them on if asked. I usually ask him to wear them in the grocery or restaurants, but not the po or library.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

I get coments on my barefooted kids all the time, people are weird. I grew up in Calif. and barefoot was the norm, here in the mid-west it means you are a bad parent.


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## noodle4u (Jul 19, 2002)

We only seem to get comments and dirty looks at the park. And its usually because once children see dd barefoot, they all want to be barefoot. We also get the looks and side comments when I allow dd to do 'odd' things like splash in a puddle









The silliest was last fall, a fairly cool overcast and wet day at the park near where I worked as a nanny. My dd had barefeet as usual, but naturally(for us anyway) had on warm pants, undershirt, sweater and light coat.

I had a few looks and tsking at dd's feet(the other child in my care, I made wear boots on cold days because she wasnt mine lol),
then one mother all concerned and catty approached dd and made, poor you, you must be freezing, you are going to catch you death of cold comments. Meanwhile every other child but the two in my care were in short sleeves and some had shorts. Some were pale and goosebumpy. I dont get it.
So I said quite loudly and clearly (I dont remember my words exactly) that pants, sweater and coat were much more reliable for keeping her warm than shoes


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I would never allow my dc to go barefoot someplace that has a shoes required sign unless he was a babes in arms. It puts the employees in an awkward position and is setting up the children to have the attitude that laws and rules don't apply to them. That being said, my ds is usually barefoot outside and at home. I wouldn't trust any public place with carpeting because bits of glass and staples from packaging get stuck in it.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Okay.. the dangers I'm talking aren't just broken glass. Its used and discarded needles and razors. I can't control where drug users drop their junk off at, so I make sure my kids wear some shoes once they start to walk.

That doesn't mean I put them in hard shoes. Robeez are great!

But at home, in doors, they are barefoot and run around all the time like I do.

As I said, I see it like this: if I won't go barefoot there, I won't let my kids go barefoot either.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
I would never allow my dc to go barefoot someplace that has a shoes required sign unless he was a babes in arms. It puts the employees in an awkward position and is setting up the children to have the attitude that laws and rules don't apply to them. That being said, my ds is usually barefoot outside and at home. I wouldn't trust any public place with carpeting because bits of glass and staples from packaging get stuck in it.









:

One thing in the OP that kind of struck a nerve with me was the assertion that it's okay to go barefoot in places where there's a policy against going barefoot because the employees don't enforce it. It's not fair to put them in the position of having to enforce it - they might not be confident enough to, they might be naive and inexperienced, or they might not be the owners and just flat out may not care. In the case of the latter, though, it's subjecting the owner to liability if someone should get hurt because the policy wasn't enforced which is incredibly unfair.

I'm not paranoid about my son hurting his feet and let him go barefoot many places that other people don't let their children. He knows that there are certain places where there's a rule that he has to wear his shoes, though, and he's fine with that (or he just chooses not to go in if that's an option).


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## Emzachsmama (Apr 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
I would never allow my dc to go barefoot someplace that has a shoes required sign unless he was a babes in arms. It puts the employees in an awkward position and is setting up the children to have the attitude that laws and rules don't apply to them. That being said, my ds is usually barefoot outside and at home. I wouldn't trust any public place with carpeting because bits of glass and staples from packaging get stuck in it.

That is exactly what I mean when I say I think it is proper to wear shoes in public buildings. I guess I just consider it a matter of respect.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

What Dragonfly said.


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## kweir (Sep 13, 2004)

I once stepped on a bee while barefoot and got stung....


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I encourage barefootedness because I dislike communicating the idea that the earth is very dangerous and treacherous and something we need to be protected from.

Sure, you need to pay attention, and watch where you step, but learning where to put your foot down is an essential skill that going barefoot helps to hone.


It's not the earth I'm scared of....it's the open switchblade I found buried in the sand at the park and many other sharp objects. Kids running in the sand aren't going to see the consealed sharp object just under the surface


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
One thing in the OP that kind of struck a nerve with me was the assertion that it's okay to go barefoot in places where there's a policy against going barefoot because the employees don't enforce it. It's not fair to put them in the position of having to enforce it

Do you all make your kids obey rules that are unreasonable? I mean, IF you think it's safe and acceptable for your child to go barefoot in the post office but they have a policy against it, would you still make them? Personally, I tell my kids they don't have to follow rules just because they're rules, but they do have to be willing to suffer the consequences if they take a stand and it doesn't go well.

FI, my children and dp and I all think "adult swim" at the pool is discriminatory and absurd, so I tell them they are welcome to get in as far as I'm concerned, but that they'll probably be told to get out. They test it out on a regular basis.







They even kicked out my 10yo DC yesterday when he was pushing the baby around in his floatie during adult swim.

Hoping we aren't going to need an "adult swim oppression" thread


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## Jillbob (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kweir*
I once stepped on a bee while barefoot and got stung....









me too, my one and only bee sting. but I still go barefoot around my home, just not in public.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

We get the same reaction lol.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Do you all make your kids obey rules that are unreasonable? I mean, IF you think it's safe and acceptable for your child to go barefoot in the post office but they have a policy against it, would you still make them?

I don't think it's unreasonable for a public accomodation to require that people wear shoes, but that aside, yes, I do require that my kids follow the rules. Our choice, in my mind, is use the facility and follow its rules or not go in the first place.

As far as encouraging my children to break the rules just because they don't like them, I save that for the bigger things. I don't want my kids wasting a lot of mental and emotional energy and creating disturbances "raging against the machine" over little things. When it comes to actual civil disobedience, I'm all for that! But if everyone ignored all the little rules that they didn't personally agree with, I think the world would be even more chaotic than it already is and the last vestiges of common decency that our society has managed to hang on to would be gone.

Namaste!


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Do you all make your kids obey rules that are unreasonable? I mean, IF you think it's safe and acceptable for your child to go barefoot in the post office but they have a policy against it, would you still make them? Personally, I tell my kids they don't have to follow rules just because they're rules, but they do have to be willing to suffer the consequences if they take a stand and it doesn't go well.

No offense, but I don't think I want your kids as houseguests. If you disagree with a rule, you should try to change it, not just break it. If you don't like the policy of a place, you can choose not to go there.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Oh, my, I think you got the wrong idea. I don't encourage them. We're not raging or disturbing anyone. They know it's allowed because we've all had discussions about the various reasons rules are made. Sometimes, rules are made to keep the people in power happy and comfortable, and yes, I do want my kids to notice when that's happening.

I don't encourage or even suggest they break these rules, but we do notice them.

Good thing Rosa Parks didn't obey rules just because they were rules! For some reason that's our family's favorite rule-breaker. I'm wondering where we'd draw the line between Rosa-type civil disobedience and smaller rule-breaking. I think it's all the same thing, really, but obviously some rules have greater consequences.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom*
No offense, but I don't think I want your kids as houseguests. If you disagree with a rule, you should try to change it, not just break it. If you don't like the policy of a place, you can choose not to go there.

Honestly, we have tried that, with respect to the pool. We continue to have a running dialogue with community members and pool management.

We're not running around flipping off the staff of every establishment that has rules we don't like, and we most certainly wouldn't disregard the rules in someone's personal living space.

sigh. forget it. (and sorry, but it did offend. it kind of hurt, since you assumed instead of asking if we'd tried other things. For Pete's sake, do you all seriously think we should just "go elsewhere" if we're being discriminated against?)


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*

Good thing Rosa Parks didn't obey rules just because they were rules! For some reason that's our family's favorite rule-breaker. I'm wondering where we'd draw the line between Rosa-type civil disobedience and smaller rule-breaking. I think it's all the same thing, really, but obviously some rules have greater consequences.

I guess where I would draw the line is, "Is it a civil rights issue?" To me, a public accomodation having a rule about wearing shoes is not, and I do consider it a disturbance if someone has to kick your son out for breaking the rules. Maybe not a huge disturbance, but a disturbance nonetheless.

I didn't mean to sound harsh with the "rage against the machine" thing, that's just a fun phrase I like to use. But I do think that if children are breaking rules and the parents are letting them, that's encouragement, no matter how subtle.

But really, I'm not heavily invested in this shoe issue, so it's not like I'd think someone were a horrible person or parent if they told their kid they didn't have to wear shoes at the PO.

Hope you still call me!

Namaste!


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

It's just a fine line to walk. I certainly believe in questioning authority but usually rules have a reason that I can see, so I don't have a problem with them.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

OT but how do your kids walk on asphalt? That burns my feet! My mom let us go barefoot anywhere, but we could not get past the road without walking on that griddle....


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
For Pete's sake, do you all seriously think we should just "go elsewhere" if we're being discriminated against?)

I don't think it's discrimination if everyone is subject to the same rule, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, etc.

Discrimination is a pretty heavy word. My son was discriminated against because he is from Africa. He was singled out and banned from a certain activity because he had recently arrived from Africa. To me, that is just not the same thing at all as having a policy against bare feet or children in the pool for 10 minutes of every hour.

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Ah, ok, I'm always glad to at least find a way to agree to disagree.

"Usually" is a relative term, but sometimes, I truly don't understand the reason for a rule. Often, I think people don't ever question rules or question authority at all. Adult swim, no-scuba goggles at the pool, no bare feet at xyz place... whatever. None of this is life-or-death, but it's still meaningful to me.

In those cases, we DO ASK why the rule is the rule. Sometimes, it makes sense and we say "oh wow, never thought of that." Other times, the staff person can't really give me an answer, or they say "it's always been that way" or they give an answer that doesn't make sense to us. In those cases, we might not go back, we might ask for a rule change, and failing those things, we might break the rule, understanding the possible consequences.

We'd never question the rules of a person's personal living space - I'm talking PUBLIC places here.

I hope this explains it better.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't think it's discrimination if everyone is subject to the same rule, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, etc.

Discrimination is a pretty heavy word. My son was discriminated against because he is from Africa. He was singled out and banned from a certain activity because he had recently arrived from Africa. To me, that is just not the same thing at all as having a policy against bare feet or children in the pool for 10 minutes of every hour.

Namaste!

No, I don't think I said it was the same thing, and of course it certainly is not. You know how I feel about your kids being excluded. It's awful and much much beyond what I am talking about.

Nevertheless, adult swim is one of many forms of anti-child age-ism in our culture, and it's a particularly hot button for me.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

It's really no ones business if you or your children are wearing shoes. Unless it's a representative of the said establishment you're visiting (they CAN tell your kids to put on shoes or leave







). BUT--- is it really the smartest decision to allow your kids to go shoeless at zoos, etc.? I mean the risk of getting a boo-boo and in turn a nasty infection is pretty high at very public places.

My ds LOVES barefoot time at the beach and in our yard!


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I encourage barefootedness because I dislike communicating the idea that the earth is very dangerous and treacherous and something we need to be protected from.

Sure, you need to pay attention, and watch where you step, but learning where to put your foot down is an essential skill that going barefoot helps to hone.

I have been trying to find a concise way to explain why i rarely wear shoes to people _my entire life_ , and you just nailed it. people ask me all the time if i get glass in my feet, etc. and i never get glass in my feet unless i'm not paying attention to where i put my foot down.

as far as the asphalt thing goes, i have gone barefoot at every possible opportunity since i was very small, and i guess i have tough feet because i've never burned them on asphalt to the point where it hurt. i think the more you go barefoot, the better your feet can handle it.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

It has always been my understanding that pools have rest-breaks so that kids get a chance to get out of the sun and into the shade drinking some water or having a snack so that they don't get heat exhaustion (which you can get while in the pool) or dehydrated or sunburned or over-exerted or whatever.

At the pool I went to as a kid, they had an area roped off for lap swim so that adults or whoever wanted to be able to swim without being run into or kicked or splashed or crowded or whatever could. Even with a special place roped of mainly for adults (the kids rarely, if ever, went in it), they still had rest breaks. As an adult I appreciate it because it gives me a break from being in the pool, too. My kids don't know that they could stay in if they wanted to!

I know that you don't equate rest breaks and having to wear shoes with racism or healthism or whatever, but my point was that if the rule applies to _everybody_, I don't think it's really discrimination.

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Oh, if they let kids swim laps and they called it "lap swim," I'd have no issue.

Kids are not allowed in at all, and I'd rather the pool leave it up to me to parent my kids and decide when they need a break.


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## ~ATenthMuse~ (Mar 16, 2003)

Living in Florida and in a beach town when ds was a toddler, we both went barefoot everywhere...unless there was a sign in the window....

Here in the city, uh-uh! There's too much trash, dirt, broken glass, etc to worry about.

I wouldn't care if someone else was barefoot though.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

We're barefooted at home nearly all the time, but when we go out we need shoes. In AZ in the summer, you can burn your feet very quickly on the hot pavement or sidewalks. Even dh who has the toughest feet I've seen (from being barefoot his entire life) can't be out barefoot- he keeps a pair of flip flops in the car.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Other people's warty feet freak me out.

I think if your feet are icky and warty, you should at least wear duct/duck tape on your soles. otherwise, go to it.

My kids wear shoes when they want and not when they don't. We don't have a family foot philosophy or anything.







Stepping in other people's spit is gross, though. (and all kinds of other city ick....ick, now that I think about it. You could even have other people's boogers stuck to your feet. Dog poop residue germs from other people's shoes. And then track that into the house, or maybe the dog had a recent vax, and now your little scrape has dog poop germs in it. Come to think of it-- there could be *anything* on your feet from human slobs, really. Ewww. And again, ewwww. :shiver:

YK what? I guess we have a family philosophy about not grossing your mother out. I'm annoucning it tonight.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Stepping in other people's spit is gross, though. (and all kinds of other city ick....ick, now that I think about it. You could even have other people's boogers stuck to your feet. Dog poop residue germs from other people's shoes. And then track that into the house, or maybe the dog had a recent vax, and now your little scrape has dog poop germs in it. Come to think of it-- there could be *anything* on your feet from human slobs, really. Ewww. And again, ewwww. :shiver:

Yeah, that's a big reason for why we wear shoes and then TAKE THEM OFF before we enter our house.

Namaste!


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

We're barefoot all the time at home. Ds isn't walking unassisted yet, so he never wears shoes anywhere. We always wear shoes in the places where it's posted as a rule...the grocery store, coffee shop,etc. I just don't feel safe running around town in barefeet. Too much yuck on the ground. I'm so used to being barefoot that I've loaded up the car and started to go out somewhere and realized that I don't have my shoes on! :LOL I've gone barefoot my whole life and my feet are very tough. One summer in college, I burned huge blisters on the bottoms of my feet crossing a hot street. Ouch! Oh, and I certainly wouldn't think a person was a bad parent if I saw a child barefoot in a public place. Live and let live. Kwim?


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't wear shoes as long as there's not snow on the ground. DD wears shoes waaayyyy more than I do because her feet aren't quite as toughened up as mine and the sidewalks in the sun hurt her soles.

I generally stash a pair of flip flops in my big hippie purse and I'll put them on if an employee asks me to. Otherwise, barefoot in the car, barefoot in the gas station, barefoot in the grocery, barefoot playing mini golf, barefoot at the movies, barefoot in the mall, barefoot playing disc golf (yesterday afternoon. damn disc-eating woods.)


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
that's a big reason for why we wear shoes and then TAKE THEM OFF before we enter our house.

:LOL That's why we don't wear shoes, and then DO wear them when we go into other people's houses. My shoes are much, much cleaner than the bottoms of my feet!!


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## scheelimama (Aug 2, 2003)

Happyhippiemama, I bet you have to totally scrub your feet at the end of the day! :LOL Wow, you're way braver than I am. I just don't think I could ever go barefoot that much. I'd be too weirded out about all the nasties people leave on the ground.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
We're barefooted at home nearly all the time, but when we go out we need shoes. In AZ in the summer, you can burn your feet very quickly on the hot pavement or sidewalks. Even dh who has the toughest feet I've seen (from being barefoot his entire life) can't be out barefoot- he keeps a pair of flip flops in the car.









Anyone who has ever attempted to walk barefoot on asphalt or the sidewalk in Phoenix in the summer might as well walk on burning coals.

OT but if you live in a hot place, pick up your toddler/preschooler when walking across the street-- the heat waves are low down to the ground and they can feel them a lot more than we can.


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

If Ben is going to be walking, he wears shoes to most public places. If I was just running in and carrying him, I wouldn't bother. I wouldn't go barefoot most of these places. I've worked in a gas station. Eww, eww, eww, eww. Even regular stores I wouldn't. If I thought that places were kept cleaner and safer, ie staples, glass, etc, it might be different. Lauren doesn't even own a pair of shoes. When fall gets here, she'll get something just to keep her piggies warm.

OT - but what would balance out adult swim IMO and I would think was great would be a time set for parents/caregivers to have swim time with young babies and toddlers. I hate going to public pools just because of the splashing and rough housing that occurs. My ds was scared of water anyway and getting splashed did NOT help. I have a friend with a small pool though, so we hang there in the summer.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Good thing Rosa Parks didn't obey rules just because they were rules! For some reason that's our family's favorite rule-breaker. I'm wondering where we'd draw the line between Rosa-type civil disobedience and smaller rule-breaking. I think it's all the same thing, really, but obviously some rules have greater consequences.

I think I draw the line at injustice or, as dharmama said, where there is a civil or human rights issue. You've really got me thinking about the adult swim thing and I agree that it's ageism (course, we don't go to pools, so we can't flout that one).

The thing is that people who flout the rules that don't really matter (a private establishment's "shoes" policy, for example) have a tendency to lose people's attention when they stand up for something really important.

I also think rules are situational and that there are different types that deserve different levels of adherence. If I go into a person's private place of business, I'm going to follow their rules (unless they're obviously discriminatory and then I'll probably choose not to patronize that business and even make a public stand against them). It's a matter of respect. If I'm at the park, on the other hand, and a mama wants me not to let my child run barefoot or go up the slide "the wrong way" because it's just not done, then poo on her. :LOL

Walk softly, carry a big stick. Pick your battles. All that stuff.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Dragonfly, I totally agree. I obviously am not conveying this well, because we seriously aren't taking stands here there and everywhere. Pretty much only the pool.

It's exactly like what you said about going up the slide "the wrong way" - I just like to talk to my kids about thinking for themselves and not accepting rules blindly. That's all I meant.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scheelimama*
Happyhippiemama, I bet you have to totally scrub your feet at the end of the day!

That's funny! In the summertime, it takes a pumice stone to get my feet clean at the end of the day. :LOL When I lived at home, my mom would occasionally see my feet sticking out of bed in the morning and bitch at me for getting in bed with feet that dirty!


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

GEESH ! For Goodness sake! and OMG ! I never cease to be amazed how people can sometimes take a small, miniscule comment and turn it into this big discussion about some "cause." Please show me in my OP where I said that we flaunt the rules about barefeet . I never said that! I simply made the comment that I have noticed that many places that post the "shoes required" rule don't enforce it. By reading the follow-up posts, you would think that I advocated going out and PURPOSELY finding places like that and then basically sticking our collective middle fingers up at them hoping they would challenge us! I NEVER implied that ! It is NOT a "big cause" for us...it was merely a simple observation. If an establishment asks us to leave (and they have) because of barefeet, WE DO, without complaint or disturbance. WE DO honor their rules if they choose to enforce them. And we don't seek such places out, either. If we HAPPEN to go to a place that says that, we may or may not go in, but it certainly ISN'T to cause a disruption of any kind! The whole post was simply to ask opinions from other mammas about the situation and the comments we get from _some_ people, not to begin a discussion about rights, causes, Rosa Parks, swimming, or anything else. I am sorry if that was the way it seems, but even sorrier that some people choose to make such things into more than what they are !


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

It is a liability issue.

I work as a manager in retail -- and it stresses me out to no end when people let their kids roam around my store barefoot. We have lawsuits brought against us *all the time* because people take stupid risks and then get injured in our store. (Ie. -- letting their kids run full-tilt unsupervised until they crash into a floor fixture and knock it down on themselves.) If I could be sure that a parent would not sue if their child stepped on something that another customer dropped, or a pin that we dropped... then I wouldn't bat an eye. But the fact, people try to sue us for less.

I had a customer FLIP OUT because I insisted her child wear shoes as he walked through our stock room to get to the bathroom.


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## coleyjo (Jun 13, 2005)

Here's a little bit of my shoe/barefoot history!

I hate shoes! Well, actually I love shoes, but I hate wearing them! :LOL

I can remember growing up throwing them off at the slightest opportunity, in church, at the playground, in a store, where ever. In California I just learned to run across the asphalt quickly and try and pick the shadiest places. As I've gotten older it's not the heat of the asphalt that I'm afraid of, its the oil and other car liquids that I'd be walking in and letting soak into my skin.

My ds is two and didn't start wearing shoes till he started walking and then just when I thought his little feet would need protecting. I baby sat a little boy a month and a half younger than him and noticed that he had shoes on from the time he was born and they were usually much too big for him. I'd wonder to myself, "what is the point?" Then his momma started complaining that he was taking to long to walk. I though "Well, if you wouldn't keep him in shoes that are two sizes too big for him maybe he's stop tripping and start walking!" But I never told her to her face!

My ds on the other hand from me loves shoes and loves to wear them! I'll be working outside and he'll actually bring me his sandels to put on him. But that could also have to do with the huge amount of pine needles and pine cones in the yard!









Anyway, do what you like when it come to shoeing or not. But my feet like to be free!


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## AuntRayRay (Aug 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kweir*
I once stepped on a bee while barefoot and got stung....









Me too!







when I was little but you know what i still continued to go barefoot :LOL and I still enjoy going barefoot. So does my oldest DS....getting cut is a concern sometimes, but flip flops are popular in my house..there easy to take off or put on for that matter







I'm just careful with where I'm walking barefoot.
Wish I never had to wear shoes :LOL

RayRAy


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I think you may get comments for a variety of reasons - it is outside the norm so people notice, worry that they could get injured by stepping on something, etc.

I agree with a previous poster who said it just seemed like the proper thing to do - wear shoes in public retail establishments. I am really surprised at some of the places people mentioned going barefoot - the mall, the movie theater, etc. Even the library and the post office seem like odd places to go barefoot IMO. It doesn't affect me if you go barefoot at any of those places but I would look. I don't think I'd comment - not my business.

Tried to think WHY I find it "proper" to wear shoes at places other than at home, in yards, at beaches. I think besides the safety and ick issues that others have raised, I just find it too.... personal, intimate, casual? None of those words are exactly right but in the ballpark anyway.

Adult swim is a very interesting topic - new thread?


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I think there are some places it is appropriate and safe to be barefoot. Other places are not in that category due to legal concerns or actual dangers/grossness of burns/bees/glass/pins/spit/poop/needles/knives/athlete's foot/germs/garbage/unknown chemicals from cars, cleaners/etc.
I enjoy being barefoot often but we definitely wear shoes (sandals) into stores, other public buildings, streets/parking lots or public sidewalks.

I suppose you could just not answer comments you feel are judgemental or invasive from fellow patrons... or simply say in a nice voice "Thanks for your concern." and walk away. If an employee or someone connected with the establishment says something that is different from other patrons making comments.


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## loveharps (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiahnsmum*
Being barefoot in NZ is pretty much the norm I even do my grocery shopping in barefeet sometimes. I have had more blisters from wearing shoes than cuts from glass when I'm barefoot.

I was just going to post that!! My summer footwear is barefeet and my winter footwear is sandels :LOL

if it was me, I'd just ignore the comments. But if there were genuine reasons behind the no barefeet rules (eg. safety, liability) I would definately wear shoes and put them on ds.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shann*
some people choose to make such things into more than what they are !

I don't think that's what happened here. I think your post just sparked a discussion about rules in general. When people discuss things like this and have differing opinions, it can sound like everyone is extremely invested in these issues and hopped up about them. I doubt that's the case. I think people are just having a good time talking about this issue and expressing themselves.

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

yea, true for me! I hope true for you dharmamama, since my son might show up barefoot if we ever meet!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

My kids may be barefoot, too! Just not if we meet in the post office!

:LOL

Namaste!


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## raleigh_mom (Jan 11, 2004)

I get comments too, and I was wondering this morning if I should say something back. We are not quite as extreme - we don't ususally wear shoes in our house and often take them off in the houses of friends. I don't require them on the sidewalk in front of our home, or on the grass.

Often other parents (neighbors) will see them and try to send them inside for their shoes. My DH and I just say, "nope, they're fine" and we let it go. But it's gotten old after several weeks now. Funny thing is, I'm usually next to them with my own bare feet, and nobody tries to send me home! :LOL

Oh well, we are moving soon and will have a whole new set of neighbors to freak out!


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I always used to hear when I was growing up that I would get worms if I went barefoot! I guess it shows my mom *was* raised on a farm.


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## Kincaid (Feb 12, 2004)

Pool breaks are not an oppressive anti-child ageist policy. They are simply a call for everyone under the age of 18 (a minor) to get out of the pool while the lifeguards take a break. Because of the heat/dehydration/need to apply sunblock/restroom needs, they get a 10 minute break every hour. Everybody takes a break at once to simplify the scheduling and assure everyone remains focused on their job - saving lives. There are a LOT of kids who are dropped off at community pools for the lifeguards to supervise. I think the hourly breaks are a wise idea.
Of course, adults can swim because it's like a hotel pool (they assume their own liability).

Cheshire - I got ringworm in my feet going barefoot as a child once! I was not on a farm but people had farms where I lived and their shoes carried it onto the surface I walked on.
Between that and being cut on the feet, I haven't gone barefoot since. I LIVE in tevas! Like going barefoot but better, more support and my legs don't get achey.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Around here if they call a break everyone breaks. There is noboby but a potential life guard or two in the pool. I don't see anything wrong with them making EVERYONE to step out of the pool for 10 minutes.

Ringworm is a fungus can get it anywere/


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

and hookworm & plantar warts, you pick up with bare feet. but if you are going to dance around through broken glass, dog doo, & used syringes, what's a little parasite? :LOL

no, really, we're barefoot a lot. i have an ecologically sound clover-based lawn instead of a fescue monoculture though, & if i haven't just mowed i make 'em wear their flip-flops. bee stings in the foot (if the grass is *thick* with bees, there's not much 'step carefully' to it- they're just *there*) are no joke. (i'm very good about picking up dog doo daily, though







yuck.)

i think common sense and respect cover most aspects of this subject. my kids are running around in my nextdoor neighbor's house barefoot (with her approval), but in my asian neighbors' houses where shoes are removed and house slippers put on, i expect them to respect their rules as well.

suse


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I frequently go barefoot myself. But we live in Phoenix (well, Tempe), and like several other posters have said, it gets very hot. I won't let my DD walk barefoot unless it's cool enough for me to lay my bare hand against the ground. And for the hot summer I invested in a pair of Preschoolians for her, because Robeez weren't going to cut it re: protecting her feet from the hot pavement! Now, once things cool off, we'll both be losing the shoes, except for me on the city bus, which strictly enforces the shoe rule, at least for anyone too big to be riding in a sling.

When I first started going barefoot out of the house a lot, I was pregnant and found it was easier on my back, but did get a few blisters because, well, it was summer and I kept pushing my heat tolerances a bit harder than my feet were really ready for. But since I got a pair of sandals at the Renfaire that have flexible recycled conveyor belt soles that let my feet move the way they're supposed to, wearing shoes is a less uncomfortable proposition. Just don't expect me to put socks on unless MAYBE there's snow on the ground! (Last time I wore closed shoes was when I was visiting family in TX panhandle in winter. My mother insisted I put on shoes and socks instead of sandals, and I tried it, but five minutes later ditched them for the sandals again!)

Seriously, as long as no one's burning their feet and the fire ants are running faster than us, barefoot is fine with me! We just wash our feet when we get home, no worries!

ETA: Feet that are bare all the time are unlikely to catch things like fungal infections, because while you do catch them with bare feet, they don't actually stick and grow unless your feet spend much of their time in a warm, humid, closed environment such as the insides of shoes. Tough, dry bare feet don't catch such things. Sweaty, closed shoes foster them.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

humidity fosters the growth of certain fungal organisms like athlete's foot, but the generations of farmkids who ran barefoot from june to september are proof that tough calloused ol' feet are not immune to picking up hookworm parasites (come to think of it, i got my plantar wart running around barefoot till my callouses were about 1/4" thick.) but i'm all for keeping things cool & dry; i only wear underwear if my dress is shorter than my knees, lol.

another 'no socks' fan here; flip-flops in the snow are a concession i make if i have to be out for a long time  (but yes, my kids are well-shod in winter! love elephanten, no painful seams. even when i'm budgeting i think good shoes are a worthwhile expense. if i AM gonna wear shoes, by god they will be comfortable (and by extension, my kids.)

flylady and the shoes, sigh. i try. i really try.

suse


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
even when i'm budgeting i think good shoes are a worthwhile expense. if i AM gonna wear shoes, by god they will be comfortable (and by extension, my kids.









That's a lesson I learned early on from my mom. Of course, it severely affected my coolness level in junior high when I wasn't allowed to buy those white Keds like all the other girls. (And then it became okay again when I went to high school and bought Docs...) :LOL


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

DD wears shoes outside and in public places. Honestly, there are kids in my playgroup whose moms don't put shoes on them, and it makes me nervous to have them running around our yard, which is full of sticks and small wood splinters (we had a large tree taken down recently). We also find a fair bit of broken glass in the yard. (Don't ask me why--it's an old house, though.) And in FL, there is never a guarantee that the ground is free of FIRE ANTS. And if you step in a mound, you are going to get 10, 15, 20 bites, and they really hurt--like a wasp sting. I did say something about all this once to these moms, and they sort of ignored me...which is fine, but I still worry a bit.

I do remember getting comments about DD when she was barefoot as a babe in arms!







What's up with that? And I let her crawl around barefoot, too, in places like libraries, etc. But once she was walking, she was in Robeez unless she was in a house.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Oh, if they let kids swim laps and they called it "lap swim," I'd have no issue.

Kids are not allowed in at all, and I'd rather the pool leave it up to me to parent my kids and decide when they need a break. 


Don't children go without their parents, with older siblings?


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm sure some do. Personally, I won't until I know my kids can sense their own limits. If the pool wants to prevent some sort of perceived liability they can find another way to determine whether kids are ready/able to be there without parents, but a sweeping rule based on age is not fair.

There are plenty of pools in plenty of places that don't have "adult swim," and they do fine.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
I'm sure some do. Personally, I won't until I know my kids can sense their own limits. If the pool wants to prevent some sort of perceived liability they can find another way to determine whether kids are ready/able to be there without parents, but a sweeping rule based on age is not fair.


Well this is prob a good place to teach a child that things in life are not always fair since it may be hard to get the rule changed.

This is a perfect chance to use an "unfairness" which you the parent can't change to teach your child about how the world views things.

You can even explain what might be done to get a rule you think is unfair changed. (Though good luck with this one, when our park district did a poll the adult swim was favored by about 90 percent of the residents)


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

did kids get a vote in that poll?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
did kids get a vote in that poll?


No. But that is how mainstream society works. You could try to change that too, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As I said this is a perfect teaching moment. The kind people always say they will allow their kids when people say "well you have to teach them that life isn't always fair."

And those here often respond "Well life has ennough unfairness that I don't have to do things to show my kid that."

And I agree. But here it is. That "life itself" moment.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
No. But that is how mainstream society works. You could try to change that too, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yea, I agree that's how society works. It's just not ok with me, and while I don't get all riled up about it on any kind of a regular basis, I also don't just shrug and say "life's not fair." We like to discuss this stuff as a family, think of ways to improve the situation, etc.


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## NatureMama3 (Feb 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
We are often barefoot too. I would either ignore it, or just say "They like being barefoot, but thanks."

yep, that.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
And in FL, there is never a guarantee that the ground is free of FIRE ANTS. And if you step in a mound, you are going to get 10, 15, 20 bites, and they really hurt--like a wasp sting. I did say something about all this once to these moms, and they sort of ignored me...which is fine, but I still worry a bit.

I think you made some really good points but do want to respond to this. Having stepped in my fair share of fire ant mounds as a child, I'd rather step in one barefoot any day than step in one with shoes on. There is absolutely nothing worse than stepping in one and not realizing it until all of those little crap weasels have crawled inside your shoes, started biting you, and you can't brush them off.


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## aolinsmama (Apr 9, 2004)

we go barefoot a lot at home, however we wear shoes while in public places, etc. not to be socially appropriate, but because of all the toxins in our environment. (we have a "shoe case" and also take our shoes off before we get into the house) you never really know if what you are walking on was sprayed with pesticides, fuels, toxic cleaners, etc. your skin is your biggest organ.


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## goatgrrl (Nov 2, 2004)

I think going barefoot (a lot) is bad for your feet/knees/back. Not to mention the skin on your feet.

Do any of you who go barefoot a lot have these problems? On the flylady website people are always giving "testimonials" about how their lives changed once they started wearing shoes everyday.

Personally, I think she has a point. If I were barefoot all the time I think I would be a lot less productive. To me, going barefoot is about kicking back and relaxing, yk?

And what about the whole "barefoot and pregnant" stigma? Do any of you ever worry about that?

(In case you couldn't tell--my children wear shoes/sandals, even in our backyard (there's glass, bees, ants...) In the house, they take off their shoes. Because shoes have been in public places picking up all kinds of sticky icky stuff.

Have you ever seen the floor around a men's urinal? Shoes have. And then shoes walk all over the place and you're letting your children's bare skin step on those same areas. Ewwww.

Maybe I have some kind of weird foot fetish but I can't stand dirty feet.







:


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I only have a second but I did want to comment on one thing. Regarding the adult swim time, that would the be the only time I would get in the pool. If I am going to take the time for a relaxing swim I don't want to deal with kids splashing and yelling/screaming. I love kids, I'm pregnant with my 3rd but there are times I would rather not be surround screaming, splashing kids. I would be pissed beyond belief if a time was designated just for adults and some parent let their kids in and I would go and complain to management. Considering there is way more time that is designated just for kids (at least in our pools) then how is that ageist? Are adults not worthy or respect as well? What about elderly people who only swim during adult time because it is easier on them (not having to worry about getting knocked against or splashed)? Should they not be allowed to swim at all because it might inconvenience your kids? Personally selfishness is not one of the traits I am striving to teach my kids.


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## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

OT - but what would balance out adult swim IMO and I would think was great would be a time set for parents/caregivers to have swim time with young babies and toddlers. I hate going to public pools just because of the splashing and rough housing that occurs. My ds was scared of water anyway and getting splashed did NOT help. I have a friend with a small pool though, so we hang there in the summer.
Our community pool has preschool swim from 10:00-12:30 every weekday, then it is open to anyone who buys a membership from 1:00-8:30. It really is nice to go in the morning, meet other mamma's and not worry about the little ones getting trampled by the big kids. Our pool starts at zero depth, so it is nice for the little ones, but int he afternoon the big kids think it is for them to race in and out of.

They also have lifeguard breaks for 15 minutes on the hour. All kids out of the pool. Adults swim at your own risk. I have seen a child or two go in and stay near a parents, but as someone else said, so many of these children are dropped off for the lifeguards to be responsible for and they deserve a refueling break.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
Regarding the adult swim time, that would the be the only time I would get in the pool. If I am going to take the time for a relaxing swim I don't want to deal with kids splashing and yelling/screaming. I love kids, I'm pregnant with my 3rd but there are times I would rather not be surround screaming, splashing kids. I would be pissed beyond belief if a time was designated just for adults and some parent let their kids in and I would go and complain to management. Considering there is way more time that is designated just for kids (at least in our pools) then how is that ageist? Are adults not worthy or respect as well? What about elderly people who only swim during adult time because it is easier on them (not having to worry about getting knocked against or splashed)? Should they not be allowed to swim at all because it might inconvenience your kids? Personally selfishness is not one of the traits I am striving to teach my kids.

What she said!









I have three kids, love kids, think they're great. AND I think that there are times/places for us to have a break from kids (ours and everyone else's!) I don't expect much child free time at Red Robin or the fair or a theater showing of Finding Nemo. But I do enjoy a nice dinner without a chicken nugget in sight, with no one needing their meal cut up, no one to take to the potty. I likewise am sure that many people enjoy (for whatever many and varied reasons) adult swim. Much of the pool time is for lessons (kids) or family or open swim. I see absolutely no problem with carving out some time for adults (maybe the elderly who just have less patience for the loudness and "splashiness" of kids, or the obese who would like to exercise without kids making comments, or pregnant women, or me!)

I find the idea of taking kids in the pool during adult swim to be very rude. However, I do have to admit that the Rosa Parks comment made me stop and think. But in the end, I don't think we can compare the situations.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't have any problem with making rules about lap swim, no-splash swim, whatever. None of it needs to be based on age.

I am waiting for this thread to end. I never said I allow my kids to get in and disturb people. I've emphatically stated it's quite the opposite. I'm being called rude and selfish, and that's very hurtful.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

And a no giggling/laughing/shouting Marco Polo! swim.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Lemme tell ya, I've been trying to get in with my baby this year and the bigger kids are driving me nuts. They'll just jump right into the pool 3 inches from me and the baby! It's annoying as heck.

Nevertheless, I think there are so many solutions to this problem that aren't sweeping age-based restrictions.

I think this is true for almost every no-kids event or time or place I can think of (other than adult/violent/sexually explicit). If you don't want a certain type of BEHAVIOR, then ban the behavior.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I hear you, Amy.









While we are at it, can we ban smelly man feet?

J/k.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

must ban ALL smelly feet (but what IS it with his feet anyway? whew!)

and toilet-missing pee-ers

and booger-couch-wipers

and oh nevermind... I think I'm too easily annoyed


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
If you don't want a certain type of BEHAVIOR, then ban the behavior.

I think that sounds easier than it is. At the pool, what would we be banning?

*No splashing babies
*No splashing the elderly
*No splashing parents who don't want to be splashed
*No jumping in next to babies, the elderly, or parents who don't want to be jumped in next to
*No kicking people as you swim by
*No bumping into people as you swim by
*No splashed caused by normal youthful exhuberance
*No swimming in front of those who are trying to swim laps
*etc.

Really, I think a good reason to have an adults-only swim is because it's not fair or reasonable to kids to say "You can get into the pool, but you can't splash around and behave like kids in a pool." I don't think that's a reasonable expectation, and I don't think that the lifeguards can maintain a splash-free environment in a pool full of kids. I'd rather my kids be out of the pool for 10-15 minutes every hour than have the guards constantly whistling kids down for "infractions."

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Well, that's one possibility. Another is:

For 15 minutes of every hour:
lap swimming and baby/toddler swimming only
no splashing/jumping

and if there's a section of the pool that can be separated, it can be continued as a regular anything-goes area.

ETA one other possibility (there are SO many):
one hour at the beginning and end of each pool day is devoted to lap swim and baby swim only. The rest is for anyone.

Honestly, I don't see why this is so threatening to people. Or maybe it just seems that way to me.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

One other thing, instead of editing again.

I think the bottom line is that while some (most







) of us don't see anything wrong with excluding people from the pool every hour on the basis of age, others of us see this as truly unfair to children because it is SO arbitrary.

If you see it as unfair, suddenly it becomes really easy to think of other solutions. If you don't, it's really easy to shoot down all those other ideas.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

I agree with you, benjalo.

The thing that gets me is that adult swim and the justifications for it are so indicative of the overall mentality about children in our culture. They're "nuisances" and we "deserve" some kid free time when we won't be "bothered" by them.

That bothers me.

Most pools I've been are sectioned; I see nothing wrong with making one section lap swimming only, or low key swimming/playing (no splashing), and leaving one section for all the regular pool activities.

Kaly


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
I think the bottom line is that while some (most







) of us don't see anything wrong with excluding people from the pool every hour on the basis of age, others of us see this as truly unfair to children because it is SO arbitrary.

I don't see it as unfair precisely because I don't see it as arbitrary. I see many, many reasons why adults-only swim is a good idea. It's not because I'm ageist, I don't think. It's because I'm practical, and I think that rest-break or adults-only swim or whatever you call it is one of the most practical ways to make sure that everyone's needs and desires are addressed. Splash-free and lap swim is available to everyone at certain times throughout the day, the lifeguards get their breaks, the kids who are at the pool unaccompanied by their parents get some downtime that they may not recognize their need for and take on their own, etc. I don't see rest-break as a way to exclude children or as an uninspired, arbitrary way to get those little nuisances out of the way (tongue-in-cheek, of course). I just see it as a reasonable attempt to make the swimming pool a pleasant place for ALL patrons, not ONLY for child patrons.

Namaste!


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I encourage barefootedness because I dislike communicating the idea that the earth is very dangerous and treacherous and something we need to be protected from.

Sure, you need to pay attention, and watch where you step, but learning where to put your foot down is an essential skill that going barefoot helps to hone.

I had to respond to this before finishing the thread. I've noticed that Dimitrius hits his feet on things or stubs his toes quite a bit (compared to me) when he's home with his shoes off. I almost NEVER stub/hit my feet on things. And I think it's because I know how to go barefoot. There's a certain way to walk when your feet aren't protected. Sort of up and down and a ginger approach to the earth at first. If I do stand on something sharp, it usually doens't hurt me because I'm able to shift my weight away to avoid getting hurt before setting all my weight down.
Just had to agree with you there








Off to read the rest of the thread...


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Do you all make your kids obey rules that are unreasonable? I mean, IF you think it's safe and acceptable for your child to go barefoot in the post office but they have a policy against it, would you still make them? Personally, I tell my kids they don't have to follow rules just because they're rules, but they do have to be willing to suffer the consequences if they take a stand and it doesn't go well.

FI, my children and dp and I all think "adult swim" at the pool is discriminatory and absurd, so I tell them they are welcome to get in as far as I'm concerned, but that they'll probably be told to get out. They test it out on a regular basis.







They even kicked out my 10yo DC yesterday when he was pushing the baby around in his floatie during adult swim.

Hoping we aren't going to need an "adult swim oppression" thread


I see nothing wrong with an "adult swim". If it was all day, every day, long, I could see your gripe. Otherwise, I do not think it is unreasonable.

No, I would not let my kids go barefoot in a place that didn't allow it, just to prove I could. I think that is teaching the children disrespect of others. If I were that opposed to something, I would stop patronizing that establishment.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cheshire*
I always used to hear when I was growing up that I would get worms if I went barefoot! I guess it shows my mom *was* raised on a farm.









GROSS STORY ALERT
My brother DID get worms from going barefoot. In his bone marrow. He had a cut on his foot and walked barefoot everywhere. The cut healed and he had no idea there were worms in it. They made their way into his bone marrow since the cut was closed and there was no way out. He had to have surgery to remove the wormy bone in his calf. He has a huge scar from it and can't drive a stick shift since it hurts his leg to apply pressure to the clutch pedal all the time. He still goes barefoot all the time. Not only that, he doesn't put his shoes on all the way when he wears them. His lace up shoes are squashed down in the back since he slips them on and walks on the backs ratehr than putting them on properly.

And on the bee topic: I once had a bee fly into my blouse and sting my armpit. I still wear blouses.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goatgrrl*
I think going barefoot (a lot) is bad for your feet/knees/back. Not to mention the skin on your feet.

I disagree in a general sense. Going barefoot is the best thing for feet/knees/back IF the ground is natural. If it's cement, forget it. Walking on uneven earth and pebbles and dirt and grass are all good for feet/knees/back. When my back is out of whack, I get sore spots in my feet. If I walk on a nice pebble path or dirt trail while barefoot, my feet get massaged and my back ends up feeling better.
Cement is awful though. Public places like post offices and stores are usually flooring laid over cement. It's such a high impact floor surface and jarring on the bones.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't see it as unfair precisely because I don't see it as arbitrary. I see many, many reasons why adults-only swim is a good idea. It's not because I'm ageist, I don't think. It's because I'm practical, and I think that rest-break or adults-only swim or whatever you call it is one of the most practical ways to make sure that everyone's needs and desires are addressed.

It's arbitrary exactly because it doesn't address everyone's needs. When you make a rule based on age, it is completely arbitrary. There are many 15-16 yo kids who could easily handle lap swimming during adult swim, and many families who want to decide for themselves when their kids need a break. These are just two of many examples of people whose needs are not being met.

How does our current typical adult swim situation meet more people's needs than one of the two or three scenarios mentioned in previous posts?

When we have a different set of guidelines for one group over another based solely on something like race or age or gender, it's wrong, imo.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*

How does our current typical adult swim situation meet more people's needs than one of the two or three scenarios mentioned in previous posts?


I didn't say that it's a better way. I said it's a reasonable attempt to meet everyone's needs and desires. I'm sure that no matter how it were structured, any form of rest-break would bother some people. How about those who can't make it to the pool in the morning or evening, but only in the afternoon? Morning-and-evening-only lap swim wouldn't work for them. If everyone were allowed in the pool during lap swim, there probably wouldn't be enough room for everyone to swim laps, and I suspect that *some* people would stay in the pool not because they really WANT to swim laps, but because they just don't want to get out. So the people who really want two swim laps wouldn't be having their needs met.

I'm not actually trying to debate these points. My point is just that I think rest-break is one of probably several reasonable options in trying to address the needs and desires of all swimmers, and I think that every option is not going to meet the needs of all people.

Quote:

When we have a different set of guidelines for one group over another based solely on something like race or age or gender, it's wrong, imo.
I have to disagree with this on the age stipulation. I think it is necessary to create some restrictions for young people because sometimes it's necesaary to take into account differing abilities, etc.

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I'm not actually trying to debate these points. My point is just that I think rest-break is one of probably several reasonable options in trying to address the needs and desires of all swimmers, and I think that every option is not going to meet the needs of all people.

I totally agree that there is no solution to meet everyone's needs. We just don't agree that this one is a reasonable one. I think if there are other equally good possibilities, we should choose one that doesn't exclude people based on nothing but a number.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I have to disagree with this on the age stipulation. I think it is necessary to create some restrictions for young people because sometimes it's necesaary to take into account differing abilities, etc.

But that's exactly why age-based restrictions are so unreasonable. They do NOT account for differing abilities within age groups.

I'm not saying young people don't need restriction. I'm saying it's unfair to restrict them based on their age alone.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
I'm not saying young people don't need restriction. I'm saying it's unfair to restrict them based on their age alone.

How, then, would you restrict them? Is it more fair to tell two kids of the same age that one can do something that the other can't because one is more mature, has more experience or better skills, etc.?

I don't know the answer to that, I'm just wondering.

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

It's definitely simpler to restrict by age, but so are lots of objectionable things. If you are really concerned, in the case we're discussing, about kids who are unaccompanied and need a rest, one option is a swim test required to swim without a parent present.

Definitely, it's more complicated to do things the fair way.

I am so grateful for snark-free debate. I







you dharmamama!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
I







you dharmamama!

Thanks!









But I didn't ask which was simpler. I asked which was fairer.









You've made it clear that you think ability-based restriction is fairer than age-based. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Namaste!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Oh, ok! I guess I'm wondering what it is that's different for you about this situation than racism or sexism? If someone eliminated you from doing something you really wanted to do on the basis of your gender, would you rather prove your skills or wait for rebirth as a man? I'm partly kidding and partly serious... Proving competence seems so much more fair.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Oh, ok! I guess I'm wondering what it is that's different for you about this situation than racism or sexism? If someone eliminated you from doing something you really wanted to do on the basis of your gender, would you rather prove your skills or wait for rebirth as a man? I'm partly kidding and partly serious... Proving competence seems so much more fair.


Well legally they are indeed different. Race and gender (and religion) are considered immutable. This means that they don't change over time or that it would violate our fundamental laws to require people to change them.

Under the laws of this country it is improper to discriminate based on what is considered an "immutable" characterisitic.

But age does change over time, at least in the sense of getting older. This is why our laws prohibit disrimination based on being old, but not on being young. If you are young you will get older and get your chance to do the restricted thing, but not vice versa.

These things are thus different. That still does not mean its fair.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

When I started this thread, I would never have thought that it would have gone from a simple question about barefoot kids to a thread about swimming ! WOW ! Good thing I didn't ask anything complicated !


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *raleigh_mom*
I get comments too, and I was wondering this morning if I should say something back. We are not quite as extreme - we don't ususally wear shoes in our house and often take them off in the houses of friends. I don't require them on the sidewalk in front of our home, or on the grass.

Often other parents (neighbors) will see them and try to send them inside for their shoes. My DH and I just say, "nope, they're fine" and we let it go. But it's gotten old after several weeks now. Funny thing is, I'm usually next to them with my own bare feet, and nobody tries to send me home! :LOL

We have the same policy. We live in an urban area, otherwise I'd have no problem with all of us going barefoot as much as possible. But since the streets around us sometimes do have glass on them, I limit the barefoot territory to our house, our yard, our sidewalk, and up and down the street a bit.

Our neighbors have a girl dd1's age. They freak out whenever they see us outside without shoes.







The little girl always wants to take her shoes off when she sees us, and they hurriedly escort her inside. Sigh.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
Oh, ok! I guess I'm wondering what it is that's different for you about this situation than racism or sexism?

If I am black or a woman, I am always going to be black or a woman (in this lifetime, at least). However, just because I am 10 now doesn't mean I will always be 10.

Like I said earlier, I haven't really made up my mind whether I think age-based restrictions are more fair than competency-based ones. But as far as this specific instance, I hold fast to my belief that rest-break is a reasonable attempt to accomodate everyone's needs and desires.

Namaste!


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## Turtle Woman (Aug 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I encourage barefootedness because I dislike communicating the idea that the earth is very dangerous and treacherous and something we need to be protected from.

Sure, you need to pay attention, and watch where you step, but learning where to put your foot down is an essential skill that going barefoot helps to hone.

This is such a great point. I have been blessed to find a great Community (Wilderness Camp) my family and I are able to go and be a part of a few times a year. In April I was getting ready to go up for the weekend and was feeling really sad that I couldn't afford to get a pair of hiking sandals. I took my flip flops and an old pair of tennis shoes. One of the first excercises they taught us was something called the fox walk. It is a way of walking in balance and being so aware of where you are setting your foot that you can pull your foot back and balance on one foot if you were about to step on something that could hurt you. It is hard to explain and takes practice but I ended up barefoot the entire weekend hiking over ridges and through fields. It was an amazing feeling in my whole body because your whole posture changes and your walk becomes flowing. Not once was I hurt. We even did a drum stalk blindfolded and barefoot. Following the sound of the drum.

Here is a coll site. http://www.barefooters.org/

I am almost always barefoot except when shopping or going to a restaurant. The kids are barefoot a lot in the summer but during school they become pretty accustomed to wearing shoes. When I do wear shoes they are flip flops or uggs.


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kiahnsmum*
Being barefoot in NZ is pretty much the norm I even do my grocery shopping in barefeet sometimes. I have had more blisters from wearing shoes than cuts from glass when I'm barefoot.

I was just about to post the same thing when i read yours! Kia ora!


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goatgrrl*
I think going barefoot (a lot) is bad for your feet/knees/back. Not to mention the skin on your feet.

If going barefoot was bad for you, we would be born with shoes on.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

from a busines owners perspective. no bare feet is strictly enforced in our busines as in when the girls and I walk in without shoeson thinking we are above the rules (as in we do actuallyown the place) Dh scowls and tells us to get out and put some shoes on.

of course we would never be so blunt with a customer as we need every sale. but you put us in an awkward nerve racking position everytime you walk in without shoes on. it is very very awkward to tell someone they are not allowed in our business. we would obviously loose the sale. at the same time there is a very real and valid (to us) reason to have that rule. there are sharp objects, dips in our floor. even if you do sew us blod and gore puts our employees at risk for infections disease and you may be thinking "well we are clean so it doesn't apply to us" but we don't know that. also getting he fist aide kit, filing the paper work, cleaning up the mess and phone cals to our lawyer just in case could easily cost us hundreds of dolars in lost wages, put us behind in what we need to get done etc etc . But at the same time just becuase we don't tell you to get the hell out or put some shoes on doesn't mean it is allowed, that we don't care or that it is in anyway OK.

So please respect the rules of businesses who ask politely/require without ceremony that you wear shoes if your feet are going to hit the floor. It doesn't matter if you agree or not it is thier store/business and they get to make the rules and if you don't like them you are free to go somewhere else or not go at all. and this applys to our public buidlings and pools.

just because the door is open to the public doesn't mean it is a "public place". our business is very much ours. every once of money and life we have is poured intot hat place nd we have been reduced to tars over how some customres treat and further more how they allow thier children to treat our things. it is hard to work your ass off all day every day only to have people who disregard rules and request risk it all (one lawsuit from some idiot and we loose not only our business but our house our car and our parents home) or wreck stuff. and becasue the cutomer is always right we have no option but to smile and say "thats OK . . . not your fault . . .we hope you enjoy the stuff you bought . . oh you bought nothing, you just came to play . .great . . well maybe next time . . . " So please respect other peoples businesses and thier property. it isn't yours until you buy it and it certainly at no time is "public". even play ground equipment and city buildings and programs are paid for by people whop like the rules and want to kep things nice. we have to all work together or they will just skip it next year.
As for being barefoot we are always barefot. everyone has easy on shoes like flip flops that pack light and are quick on and of because I would never allow my children to walk barefoot where people expected/requested shoes. And I do appologize to all the parents who scowl because I let my children go barefoot at the park and beach which leads to your kids asking and then saying "but she doesn't have shoes on . . . " but I am willing to take the risk and since there is no rule against it we are fre to do it and will.

kinda funny someone mentioned the bee thing. my dd stepped on a bee one day while running barefoot in the yard. my "always has her baby dressed to the nines including matching shoes" says quickly and self rightously "well it wouldn't have hapened if you had shoes on her" to which I replyed "well yeah but then she wouldn't have been bare foot







: " some thing are just worth it. i grew up in TX where you couldn't go barefot. you would run from the foot frying asphalt to the grass where you get stickers in your feet as you were running from the fire ants. you couldn't even really wear sandles there. it sucked. i don't even wear shoes in the winter here and it gets to -20*F. I mean I walk fast on those days but regular shoes certainly not. certainly not boots or anything silly like that.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
There's a certain way to walk when your feet aren't protected. Sort of up and down and a ginger approach to the earth at first. If I do stand on something sharp, it usually doens't hurt me because I'm able to shift my weight away to avoid getting hurt before setting all my weight down.
Just had to agree with you there








Off to read the rest of the thread...

This has GOT to be the same reason why DH's skin will invariably find the lost pin in any garment and I never get stuck by pins. As a sewer, I guess I've learned to pick the fabric up gingerly and adjust.

To dharmamama and benjalo - I've thoroughly enjoyed your discourse and think you're both about as respectful as you can get on an online forum. I especially enjoyed the more philosophical thoughts on rules.

BTW - our public pool has no adult swim on the hour thing. We do have a toddler pool and a lap portion and a diving portion of the pool, but anyone can be in any segment.

Benajalo - have you seen the German site that is trying to have no voting age? Very interesting stuff regarding ageism.


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## Losgann (Jun 24, 2004)

I never gave it much thought before.. We live in TX and if we are home or out in the yard/out about in the neighborhood we're barefoot. Even during the summer when it's 100+ degrees out. If we have to cross the street we tiptoe quickly across screeching "ouch ouch ouch!" and giggling hysterically. Ever seen those desert lizards that dance from foot to foot over hot sands? :LOL If we have to we travel through grass next to the sidewalk.. It's just more comfortable. And we're familiar enough with the neighborhood to know where we need to watch our step.

However, if the kids are riding their scooters or their bikes, just as they must have a helmet on so must they have their shoes on. Just for safety.. DD (5) has somehow gotten her foot mashed into the back wheel of her bike (between the frame and the wheel) with shoes on, I can't imagine what damage might have been done if she hadn't had shoes on.. She's incredibly creative when it comes to getting stuck in things! (Sticking her finger in a hole in shelving at Old Navy comes to mind. :LOL) I've also pushed her bike over my bare feet (those training wheels!) and OUCH!

Also the park- there are mesquite trees that drop pretty large thorns that get embedded in the mats on the ground. You don't know they are there until you step on one. I found one embedded into the thick sole of my sandal! The kids beg me constantly to let them go barefoot at the park because other kids are.. I'm guessing their parents haven't found a 4 inch thorn embedded in their shoe or foot yet!

I guess if I know there is an issue where they are definitely gonna get hurt if they don't have shoes on, I'm all for it.. As for the rest of it.. heh! I got enough to worry about without worrying about every icky thing they could possibly ever come into contact with.. And they bathe often, so..









When I'm wearing shoes I twist my ankles constantly. And my knee goes out. I FALL- HARD. I recently tore something in my ankle wearing tennis shoes. I fall off of flat sidewalks.. I don't do that barefooted!

We do wear shoes whenever we go out anywhere. I've never been much of a rule breaker, and it's just easier for ds (asperger syndrome) to have that concrete rule: at home= barefoot. at store= shoes. We can't pick and choose which stores he could go barefoot in and which he couldn't, he'd never get it and it would be a headache for everybody..

I dunno.. I'm comfortable, and if you're comfortable doing whatever it is you're doing, I'm not gonna even think twice about it.

Anyway, per the op.. If I saw someone barefoot in a store I'd probably think "Gosh.. wish I had the guts to do that.. I hate these frickin' shoes!" :LOL


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Does anyone have the link for the bare foot family web-site? I got it from a TCS discussion on MDC a while back. There’s some good stuff in there about legal and safety concerns. I’ll see if I can find it.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

This isn't the one but it looks full of info: http://www.barefooters.org/


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Haven't been involved in this discussion at all, but I do know the site you're talking about: http://www.unshod.org/pfbc/pfbc.htm

I went barefoot a lot as a kid, never really was harmed by it. Though we did have to wear shoes in public. I still go barefoot as much as possible. I'm going to let my kids go barefoot as much as possible too. No shoes til they start walking, and then soft soles when there is no barefoot option.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yes, that's the one. I liked it. Thanks.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goatgrrl*
I think going barefoot (a lot) is bad for your feet/knees/back. Not to mention the skin on your feet.

And what about the whole "barefoot and pregnant" stigma? Do any of you ever worry about that?


Actually, going barefoot is much BETTER for your feet/knees/back, because the human body was designed/evolved to walk barefoot. Shoes are a cultural adaptation to extremes of local environmental conditions.

When you go barefoot, the tendons and ligaments in your feet and ankles and muscles in your legs that work with them get proper exercise and therefore stay in better condition. The way one walks when barefoot (and accustomed to walking barefoot) is lower impact on the legs/knees/back because the shock of impact is absorbed in the foot as well as the knees, and is less narrowly directed at one spot or a narrow line on your foot the way it is in shoes.

Yes, the skin on your feet is going to take a beating if you walk barefoot, but that's why it's thicker.

As for the cleanliness, we wash our feet at least daily. How many people do that with their shoes, inside (where the foot sweats all day) or out?

True, there are some parasites that can be caught through the feet, but not walking in areas where they grow (pig sty's, stagnant water, etc.), or in regions where they are very prevalent (humid tropical areas) can deal with that. Arizona has quite it's share of fire ants, too, but these can be avoided by watching where you step (grass isn't nearly as prone to hiding them here as in Florida!), which is also advisable for other hazards. The sun bakes most germs off of pavement in short order. Now, back where I grew up in Texas, one didn't dare set foot on a lawn barefoot because of the stickers in the grass. And I've seen parts of Chicago where the detrius on the sidewalks looked potentially lethal. But indoor areas where we do so much of our living in the modern world, and sidewalks, etc., are usually fine to walk on barefoot.

Finally, what's the point of a nice, soft, homogenous, well-manicured lawn of grass if you can't walk on it barefoot?


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
GROSS STORY ALERT
My brother DID get worms from going barefoot. In his bone marrow. He had a cut on his foot and walked barefoot everywhere.

The moral of this story seems to me to be: Don't walk around barefoot with open wounds on your feet. Any break in the skin leaves one more open to the attack of parasites or infection.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
How, then, would you restrict them? Is it more fair to tell two kids of the same age that one can do something that the other can't because one is more mature, has more experience or better skills, etc.?

I don't know the answer to that, I'm just wondering.

Namaste!

I'd say yes. I was allowed to stay home alone all day in summer and travel around town within certain boundaries by myself when I was ten. My sisters, on the other hand, were not allowed to stay home alone until a few years older than that, because, as my mom put it, while she worried a little that the house might burn down around me and I wouldn't notice because I was engrossed in a book, with my sisters her concern was that they would start the fire. Different personalities, maturity levels, and behaviors should play into such decisions.

The problem with doing this for large public groups is that you don't know the individuals involved. Which is why our society has rules about how minors vs. adults are to be treated based upon their age, rather than an IQ test or behavioral assessment.

A possible alternative way to handle the situation at the pool might be to restrict certain times to only individuals who are either a minimum age OR have passed a certain level of swim test demonstrating that they are capable of swimming laps during lap swim and have a written statement from the parents that they feel their individual child has the maturity and sense to know when they need a break. Such individuals could be issued armbands to distinguish them. Add to that a rule that during the break time any children in the pool must be accompanied by adults responsible for them. Thus any kids who are unaccompanied (and therefore left with the legal responsibility for their safety in the hands of the pool staff thanks to the structure of our laws) and who haven't demonstrated their competence in the water to the responsible parties are forced to take a break.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
from a busines owners perspective. .. . at the same time there is a very real and valid (to us) reason to have that rule. there are sharp objects, dips in our floor. even if you do sew us blod and gore puts our employees at risk for infections disease and you may be thinking "well we are clean so it doesn't apply to us" but we don't know that. also getting he fist aide kit, filing the paper work, cleaning up the mess and phone cals to our lawyer just in case could easily cost us hundreds of dolars in lost wages, put us behind in what we need to get done etc etc . But at the same time just becuase we don't tell you to get the hell out or put some shoes on doesn't mean it is allowed, that we don't care or that it is in anyway OK.

Okay, but if the individual accustomed to going barefoot trips and has a fall because they're wearing the shoes you required them to wear, and is injured, are you any less liable? So if they decide not to wear shoes, how are you MORE liable? Again "blood and gore" from foot injury for bare footed individuals isn't particularly likely. Now, if your business is construction and it's a construction site, that's different. But most stores/restaurants/etc. do not really have significant foot hazards in the areas accessible by customers. Which is why OSHA has footwear requirements for safety for employees but not for visitors/customers. My feet are not significantly safer from much of anything in a pair of flip-flops or sandals (except hot pavement) than they are bare.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Losgann*
However, if the kids are riding their scooters or their bikes, just as they must have a helmet on so must they have their shoes on. Just for safety.. DD (5) has somehow gotten her foot mashed into the back wheel of her bike (between the frame and the wheel) with shoes on, I can't imagine what damage might have been done if she hadn't had shoes on.. She's incredibly creative when it comes to getting stuck in things!

I read an account of an anthropologist's work in Mali, Africa. One of the more unpleasant things she described was the consequences of the tendency of people to carry kids on the backs of bicycles. These are poor people w/ no shoes for their kids and no other transportation. Feet getting mangled in bicycle wheels is not an uncommon cause of injury. I would absolutely wear shoes and expect DD to as well if we were on a bicycle!


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