# Would you leave your child in a hotel room?



## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Like the McCanns did?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...re/6623127.stm

This is such a distressing and heartbreaking story and it is also so frightening. We have not left our DD alone in hotel room to sleep, not so much because of fear of kidnapping or even fire but more because I would not want her to wake up in a strange place alone and have no one respond when she called out or cried.

BUT we have left her with a babysitter hired by the hotel, and I am thinking that statistically, she was probably in greater danger being left with a babysitter that we did not know...Should we have left her alone, then?

I bear no judgment on the parents. I am sure that we put our children in greater danger when we take them out in the car on the highway (even with the child in a carseat). But these situations sure are difficult ones when we are in them and the story sure scares the bejeebers out of me.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

No, I wouldn`t leave my child alone in the hotel. Personally I wouldn`t leave him with a babysitter from the hotel, either.

But I would never, ever blame these poor, poor parents for anything of this! Never. I so, so feel for them.







This story makes me cry everyday. I check newspapers online a gazzillion times a day to see if anything new has happened in this case. This case makes me want to throw up. She is just a baby!!!









I can`t stop thinking about what this tiny, little girl maybe is going through. I hope, hope, hope she is safe and that she isn`t abused in the way the police thinks she might be.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I feel for them, but I think they did something incredibly stupid and selfish. That poor baby


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

Um no never ever, just like I wouldnt leave my child home alone either. I am sorry for the family but they made a really bad choice.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

No, I wouldn't.


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## KayasMama04 (Feb 4, 2006)

I don't think we would leave dd with a hotel babysitter we almost did at disney paris but just took her with us. I have left her sleeping to go to my moms room which was just across and you could here everything the walls were super thin at this hotel in amsterdam.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

I would never leave my chiildren at home alone at that age and just check in on them every hour.


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## Igraine (Jul 1, 2006)

Bad choice...I would never leave my children of that age alone.

What were they thinking! Maybe I would pay to bring my babysitter on vacation with us if my dh and I felt that strongly that we had to have time alone (have not felt that strongly about it to this point). At least I know the person is trustworthy and my kids would already be comfortable with her.

My heart certainly goes out to this family. I certainly do not need to add to any of the blame I am sure they currently feel. I will keep Madeleine in my prayers. Poor baby.


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## SoulJourney (Sep 26, 2005)

I am very sorry for what has happened to this little girl but I, too, feel this family made some very poor, very selfish decisions. I would NEVER leave my DC alone like that. PERIOD.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

We stayed at an inn with my then-18 mo in March. The dining room was down a corridor and around the corner from our room and we could see our room from the dining room window, across a garden. The monitor reached, just barely.

After a couple of toddler-ful dinners it was very very tempting to leave him there as it would barely take more time to get there than it would from the basement to his room in our house. And the idea of a calm meal was hugely appealing.

In the end we decided not to, but I really really understand this couple's choice. I really hope for a safe outcome.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Absolutely not.

We often get suites and order up room service after dd is asleep in the bedroom. Add a nice bottle of wine, some candles, and a little music and it is a date.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

No, I wouldn't. And I wouldn't leave DS with a Babysitter hired-by-the-hotel either.

When we travel, the family stays together at all times.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
We often get suites and order up room service after dd is asleep in the bedroom. Add a nice bottle of wine, some candles, and a little music and it is a date.

This is exactly what my husband and I are planning to do when we travel this summer with my daughter. We aren't comfortable with leaving her with a hotel babysitter, and we would never even consider leaving her in a hotel room alone.

Honestly though, I feel bad for the parents in this case. They made a foolish mistake, and I am sure I have made some of those before. But, I don't think they were selfish per se, but probably just naive. I think they just thought it was a beautiful, peaceful, lovely place and that nothing like that could ever happen there. I think it's really easy to slip into that way of thinking when you are at one of those sort of unreal vacations spots where things appear so differently than the real world. Everything seems so perfect.

I hope and pray that Madeleine is found alive. I keep thinking about her and what she might be going through.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

No way. I wouldn't use hotel-hired childcare, either. But since they have it, it must not be that out of the norm to use it.....just not something for my family.

I hope that beautiful little girl is found safe


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## polyhymnia (Jan 6, 2007)

I really think that in this case it is not a "hotel room" such as Americans usually think of. From what I have read, it seems it was a holiday apartment/suite, which could be SEEN from the outdoor restaurant where they were eating. They were not any further from the sleeping children than parents might be in a larger home, and parents frequently leave children sleeping alone in a bedroom while they putter about in the rest of the house. I can only imagine what this family is going through and how terrifying it must be for them. I truly hope nobody is blaming them - I am sure they are doing enough of that themselves :-/


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

My dd was never that great of an alone sleeper so it wasn't something I ever considered. (dd was a great sleeper as long a someone was besides her!)

Maybe if the room was locked AND dd was in a crib she couldn't get out of AND she was too young to stand up AND I had a monitor AND the door was in sight and close enough that I could hear the child cry and hear the door open AND someone physically checked on her atleast hourly.

I've always lived in tiny apartments so I'm not use to being far away from dd when she takes a nap (dd co-sleeps at night)


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

No I would not. It seems that if they were travelling with that many adults then they could have taken turns with the other adults watching in watching the children. That is very sad. I hope they find her.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crayolaab* 
From what I have read, it seems it was a holiday apartment/suite, which could be SEEN from the outdoor restaurant where they were eating. They were not any further from the sleeping children than parents might be in a larger home, and parents frequently leave children sleeping alone in a bedroom while they putter about in the rest of the house. I can only imagine what this family is going through and how terrifying it must be for them. I truly hope nobody is blaming them - I am sure they are doing enough of that themselves :-/

I am not interested in blaming the parents either...what happened is horrible, but they didn't do anything horrible imo.....but the link said:

"Madeleine's parents - both doctors - had been having a meal in a tapas restaurant a few hundred yards from the apartment"

Even if that was 300 yards (a few), that is 3 football fields away. That is much farther than most of us normally leave our children, I would think. But maybe the distance estimate was wrong?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I would never leave a 3yo alone in a hotel room.

My 11yo and 12yo? Sure!

IMO, they're not old enough to be alone in a hotel room until they're old enough to be left home alone.

My heart goes out to this family, and I'd never consider pushing my American values onto people from other areas- it sounds like this was a British family?


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## towsonmama (May 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
My heart goes out to this family, and I'd never consider pushing my American values onto people from other areas- it sounds like this was a British family?

There's another thread about this little girl current events. This same point about American values was brought up there as well and many Brits were quick to jump in and claim no difference. They were pretty offended--understandably, imo.

I'd like to think that I wouldn't leave my children alone in a hotel room but I'd never say "never." If the situation were such that I felt it was safe, who knows??


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

I couldn't leave my child alone in a hotel room, even five minutes. I have walked down the hall while he was sleeping and even that was awful enough. As for babysitters, I have used babysitting services twice while staying at a hotel, both were wonderful, fully qualified, had long service with the company, and put me at ease when I met them. The first time my son was asleep and we were a block away, the second time he was awake but fell asleep after she told stories. Both were older, grandmother types, and had mothered a few children of their own, and were very sweet and gentle. I had full confidence in them and he was well taken care of, of course we paid through the nose for their services, but I was okay with that, we are very picky, asked lots of questions, they were screened, and only took people we were totally comfortable with. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I think saying that a child is in more danger with a sitter (mind you a well qualified sitter) than being left alone in a hotel room, is pretty misguided. I would say the opposite is true.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Igraine* 
Bad choice...I would never leave my children of that age alone.

What were they thinking! Maybe I would pay to bring my babysitter on vacation with us if my dh and I felt that strongly that we had to have time alone (have not felt that strongly about it to this point). At least I know the person is trustworthy and my kids would already be comfortable with her.

My heart certainly goes out to this family. I certainly do not need to add to any of the blame I am sure they currently feel. I will keep Madeleine in my prayers. Poor baby.

You asked what were they thinking--and I am wondering (not to single out this post, or anything like that) if perhaps this is a cultural thing? I know that in some countries it is perfectly normal to leave your baby totally out in the open (meaning outdoors, not out naked or anything like that) in a stroller asleep OUTSIDE a department store while mum goes in to shop.
Perhaps this is something that would be considered 'normal'? In the US--forget it, kids (even at age 13) can get abducted from small towns as they hop off of a school bus (in reference to the two boys who were recently rescued from an abductor).
Regardless it's heartbreaking.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl* 
You asked what were they thinking--and I am wondering (not to single out this post, or anything like that) if perhaps this is a cultural thing? I know that in some countries it is perfectly normal to leave your baby totally out in the open (meaning outdoors, not out naked or anything like that) in a stroller asleep OUTSIDE a department store while mum goes in to shop.
Perhaps this is something that would be considered 'normal'? In the US--forget it, kids (even at age 13) can get abducted from small towns as they hop off of a school bus (in reference to the two boys who were recently rescued from an abductor).
Regardless it's heartbreaking.

I think it's been established that this is not an accepted cultural practice. Even if it were, it doesn't make it smart.

It's accepted cultural practice to circumcise in the US. Still inexcusable.


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## DoctorGirlfriend (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
But I would never, ever blame these poor, poor parents for anything of this! Never. I so, so feel for them.

Um, why? Why wouldn't you blame someone for making a bad decision?

It's an awful thing, of course, and they must be going through hell. But I blame them.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I left my DD alone in our hotel room that adjoined to my mom's with the door propped open between them. But to leave the room and go somewhere else? I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I have a family friend who for their DC's whole life has been leaving him and taking the baby monitor to go across the street and have a drink/dinner with their close friends/neighbors. It always bothered me... What if the batteries died or something? Don't like it.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
We stayed at an inn with my then-18 mo in March. The dining room was down a corridor and around the corner from our room and we could see our room from the dining room window, across a garden. The monitor reached, just barely. After a couple of toddler-ful dinners it was very very tempting to leave him there as it would barely take more time to get there than it would from the basement to his room in our house.

i think i could deal with this, but only with the monitor. when we stayed at my mom's house, i used to get freaked if the monitor crapped out while i was right down by the fire, although his window was open and he was used to the house layout and everything. the hotel suite is also a fabulous idea. (not as expensive as it sounds either... if we can afford it.







)


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## ferretfan (Nov 13, 2005)

it's most definitely not a cultural thing. i was born and raised in the UK (left 4years ago) and would never dream of doing such a thing. my mum has been keeping me informed of the news coverage over there. it's an awful, awful thing to have happened to that innocent child, but i can blame noone but the parents. it wasnt the first time she was left alone in the room with her twin sibs either







: makes me sick just thinking about it


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I would be okay with anything in range of the monitor with a baby monitor, and with a qualified babysitter employed or contracted by the hotel (licensed, with a background check on file and lots of experience). Even the checking-every-half-hour with the door to the room in sight from my seat in the restaurant, possibly. But down the street, out of sight AND hearing AND unsupervised? No way.


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

I haven't read all the replies, but I kept thinking about this every time I see something in the news about this story. I keep thinking, but, but they _left their kids alone_? And the the BBC just mentions that fact in passing, and it seems odd to me.

What an awful story.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ferretfan* 
it's most definitely not a cultural thing. i was born and raised in the UK (left 4years ago) and would never dream of doing such a thing. my mum has been keeping me informed of the news coverage over there. it's an awful, awful thing to have happened to that innocent child, *but i can blame noone but the parents.* it wasnt the first time she was left alone in the room with her twin sibs either







: makes me sick just thinking about it

Really? I blame the person who took the little girl.

I met a French woman in Thailand who had a DD about that age. She would leave her asleep in the hotel room and go down to the bar/restaurant for a bite. -They didn't have room service. It was pre-my-DD so I asked nicely about if her DD woke up and she said it was completely normal and not a big deal. I would not be comfortable with it though.

I am heartsick for the parents and the little girl, I hope they find her alive and well - soon!


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## christy005 (Mar 5, 2007)

no no no. i'd never leave my children alone in a hotel room! i feel so sorry for the parents, because this is probably their worst nightmare, but they shouldn't have left them alone.







this could have been easily prevented, which is the saddest part. I hope they find her soon!


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

It would depend on the age, how far outside the room I was going, and for how long. A 3 yr old alone while I ate dinner a few hundred yards away, no. But I have left my then 5 and 2 yr olds in the room alone while I went out into the hall. I was closer to them and away for a shorter time than I would have been if they had been in their rooms at home while I was downstairs.


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## kymholly (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
Really? *I blame the person who took the little girl.*
I met a French woman in Thailand who had a DD about that age. She would leave her asleep in the hotel room and go down to the bar/restaurant for a bite. -They didn't have room service. It was pre-my-DD so I asked nicely about if her DD woke up and she said it was completely normal and not a big deal. I would not be comfortable with it though.

I am heartsick for the parents and the little girl, I hope they find her alive and well - soon!

Exactly.

It may very well be that the decision that those parents made is not the same one that many of us would have made, but who among us hasn't made a bad decision at some point with regards to our child? But for the grace of god, that could be any one of us. It takes a split second & sometimes the parents are right there, with their attention turned for an instant.

There are preditors out there. When they strike, it's somehow comforting to point fingers at the victims. It makes us feel like we are not vulnerable. _We_ wouldn't do whatever it was that that other person did that allowed this preditor the opportunity to pounce.

Victims are exactly that. Don't point fingers at them unless you've walked in their shoes.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I'd never consider pushing my American values onto people from other areas- it sounds like this was a British family?

I said it in the other thread, but there is no difference between British and American values on something like this. (circumcision, yes. Spanking, yes. But supervising your child, no.)

You would get the same cross-section of responses to the question posed on this thread in the UK as you would get here. Most people would not dream of leaving their child in a hotel room. A few people would consider doing it (but would probably never admit that here.)

This is not to say that I agree in any way in pointing fingers of blame at the parents here. I have never left my child unattended in a hotel room, nor would I ever do so. However, I'm not perfect, and but for the grace of God.....

I could not profess to have never had any of my children in a situation where something terrible could have happened. They could have fallen, got run over, got burned... any number of things. I've grabbed hands before they've touched hot stoves. I've dashed out after a toddler in the street. Just tonight I ran through a crowded restaurant after my _fast_ 2 yo. Earlier today I had to yell at my 4 yo to stop before she ran into the street (to pick up a pine cone she'd spotted there.) Any one of those things could have ended up in disaster, and people could then be pointing fingers at me. I'm human. I do the best I can to forsee any situation of danger, but the truth is, we can't guarantee that our children will never get hurt.

Heck, I have a friend whose ds fell into the Grand Canyon, yet she's one of the most sensible people I know. Her son was OK, but he might not have been! Her mistake was not telling him that the other side of the wall was a sheer drop. How could she forsee that a 9 yo would climb the wall in a split second? As it is, it is a great dinner-party story for the family. But it could have been the end of family life as they know it.

My heart goes out to this family, and to anyone else who has suffered such a dreadful situation. I am not smug enough to think that something like this could not happen to my family. Maybe not something identical, but something equally as dreadful.

Praying for that little girl.....


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kymholly* 
Exactly.

It may very well be that the decision that those parents made is not the same one that many of us would have made, but who among us hasn't made a bad decision at some point with regards to our child? But for the grace of god, that could be any one of us. It takes a split second & sometimes the parents are right there, with their attention turned for an instant.

There are preditors out there. When they strike, it's somehow comforting to point fingers at the victims. It makes us feel like we are not vulnerable. _We_ wouldn't do whatever it was that that other person did that allowed this preditor the opportunity to pounce.

Victims are exactly that. Don't point fingers at them unless you've walked in their shoes.

Thank you. My thoughts, exactly.


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## Primigravida (May 7, 2006)

I don't think I'm reading this right???







:

They left........
a 3yr old..........
alone........
with two 2yr olds....
in a hotel room
300 ft away

That don't sound very bright.........


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

On the news here it went from being a few hundred feet to like 50 feet or something from hotel to apartment and they showed the distance and it was not several hundred feet, but I guess that is irrelevant just skewed media coverage. Some mornings 'womens' shows here have been discussing this and the fact that they were doctors came up and how if it had been a single-parent there might have been a different reaction on the 'responsibility' front from the public and media. I think the parents made a poor choice and should have hired a reputable baby-sitter so they could sit and have their meal. No it's just not safe to leave dc that young and I guess they got complacent. It's sick, looks well planned and the parents are suffering immeasurably regardless of anything else and the poor wee girl







:







, they are very unlikely to see her again, but we can hope she turns up, safe. According to the media a businessman has put up a large reward like a million I think. The planning that goes into some of these abductions will be extensive and it's just not safe to leave dc unnattended ever.


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

No, never


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## MelanieMC (Jul 7, 2005)

No, I would never leave any young child alone in a hotel room. I wouldn't care if I was in one of those places where ppl do leave babies in strollers outside alone, I still wouldn't. Besides the risk of abduction, I wouldn't want my child to wake up and be alone and not know where I am. Can you imagine how scary that would be?

I have a friend who went to las vegas with her husband and two children (ages 10 mons. and 2 1/2 at the time) and left them up in the room to go gamble down in the hotels casino. They were on the 18th floor, so it would take them at least 5 min. to get from the ground floor up to their floor (seeing as how it's a busy casino and the elevator stops frequently). They didn't even have a monitor, they just laid them in the center of the bed and left. She told me that they did go and check in about every hour or so, and they were down there from 9pm to around 3 in the morning.







:


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## ErikaLeigh (Dec 24, 2006)

I would never leave my child alone at a hotel!


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## RoadBuddy (May 19, 2005)

No, never.

The thing about this case is that the articles say they were travelling with friends or family - other adults and children. I've done that, and the easiest thing is to arrange for one of the other couples to watch both sets of children while the parents go out. Switch who is babysitting, so everyone has a few nights of alone/adult time and a few nights of babysitting. Simple. If you're on vacation with people, you are likely close to them, so it would be less worrisome than a hotel babysitter, and certainly better than leaving your kids. A bit of a pain because all the kids need to be in the same room for the time the parents are out, but get adjoining rooms and that problem is solved.


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## stogid (May 11, 2007)

This story is VERY VERY sad and it has the whole world watching in antisipation as to what will come of it.

I just hope that little girl is reunited with her family soon and I hope she has not been too affected by her ordeal.

It really puts everything into perspective.

The parents should really be ashamed







for leaving her alone for 1 minute never mind 30 minutes in a foreign country...it does make my blood boil but im sure they feel really bad about it.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kymholly* 
Exactly.

It may very well be that the decision that those parents made is not the same one that many of us would have made, but who among us hasn't made a bad decision at some point with regards to our child? But for the grace of god, that could be any one of us. It takes a split second & sometimes the parents are right there, with their attention turned for an instant.

There are preditors out there. When they strike, it's somehow comforting to point fingers at the victims. It makes us feel like we are not vulnerable. _We_ wouldn't do whatever it was that that other person did that allowed this preditor the opportunity to pounce.

Victims are exactly that. Don't point fingers at them unless you've walked in their shoes.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It really upsets me to see some people blaming these parents and saying things like they should "be ashamed" for the fact that someone kidnapped their child. To me, it makes this incredibly sad situation even more sad.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
On the news here it went from being a few hundred feet to like 50 feet or something from hotel to apartment and they showed the distance and it was not several hundred feet,

Ok, that is a huge difference. 50 ft and a few hundred _yards_ (as stated in the linked article).

On blame.....to blame the parents, to me that would imply that they considered abduction a likely result and left anyway--disregarding safety. The blame lies with the abductor, imo. At worst, the parents were neglectful. But they aren't the predator here.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I absolutely blame the parents. They made a stupid and selfish decision. No, they didn't kidnap their child, but by their selfishness created an opportune situation for an evil person. It wasn't an accident or a quick mistake...it was a well-thought out, oft repeated scenario where they put their selfish desires first and neglected their children.

So, I blame them for child neglect.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I personally would NEVER, but I think somebody was stalking this family and had long targeted this little girl.

They were just waiting for the right opportunity to snatch the little girl. I truly think that had they not taken her away from her bedroom that evening, they would have waited to snatch her some other time.

As all moms of 3-4yos know, sometimes they do manage to get our of sight for a few seconds, and unfortunately that's enough for someone targeting the child









Leaving her alone made it all easier for these evil people, but people are talking about the parents almost as if they had hired the kidnappers for crying our loud. I was reading somewhere that having the child sleep in the hotel room is something many parents do in that reort as it is such a peaceful area.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
On blame.....to blame the parents, to me that would imply that they considered abduction a likely result and left anyway--disregarding safety. The blame lies with the abductor, imo. At worst, the parents were neglectful. But they aren't the predator here.

But that's why we *wouldn't* leave our kids unsupervised like that -- because we *do* consider abduction (or sudden illness, or any number of other things) to be at least a possible outcome. To not even consider that creates an opportunity for the abductor that simply wouldn't have existed if the parents had made the same common-sense decision that everyone in this thread would have made.

If a parent put their child in someone's car with no carseat and that child subsequently was injured in an accident, would you *only* blame the driver of the car, or would you also blame the parent who put them in that situation?

Part of our job as parents is to be aware of the dangerous possibilities and take steps to increase the likelihood that they won't happen to our children. I'm not talking about extreme hypervigilance, but ... Carseats? Supervision in a foreign country? I'd think those would be pretty obvious to most parents, and I don't consider neglecting to provide that type of security for your kids a simple "mistake."


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

I could see leaving my kids, *with the door locked,* long enough to go down the hall to get ice or a soda from the vending machines or something. I rarely stay at hotels with room service. But I can't imagine leaving long enough to have a meal in a resturant. No freakin' way.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myjulybabes* 
I could see leaving my kids, *with the door locked,* long enough to go down the hall to get ice or a soda from the vending machines or something. I rarely stay at hotels with room service. But I can't imagine leaving long enough to have a meal in a resturant. No freakin' way.









:

Especially in reference to a few hundred feet and eating dinner, at first I thought "they must be insane!" Then with the idea of 50 feet... I remembered that in a hotel in December, I woke up early, couldn't get back to sleep, and left my 2 year old asleep in bed while I went down the hall to get coffee and a muffin. Now, in that case, my mom was also asleep in the room, but I bet I would have done it anyway even if she hadn't been. I brought them back to the room, and was back within 5 minutes, but I couldn't see the hotel room door the whole time. I can see going down the hall for ice, or coffee, or whatever, seeming pretty safe when a child is sleeping and the door is locked.

I can't see being gone for 1/2 hour at a stretch though during a long dinner. I suspect that the predator knew where to find the girl either by stalking the family, or the parents called attention to the fact that there was an unprotected child in the room by going back to the room constantly during dinner.

If they had only been gone for 5 to 10 minutes and not for an extended period of time, I would figure someone had to be stalking the family. A predator isn't going to randomly break into rooms to see if he (or she) happens to find children. And if someone had broken into a whole string of rooms, that would probably have been reported too.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

I personally would NEVER, but I think somebody was stalking this family and had long targeted this little girl.

They were just waiting for the right opportunity to snatch the little girl. I truly think that had they not taken her away from her bedroom that evening, they would have waited to snatch her some other time.

Personally, I think she was only targeted in the sense, that someone noticed they were left alone in the hotel room and therefore would be "easy" to abduct. Unless a ransom note or something like that turns up (which would indicate a more direct target), I think the only target, is that she was accessible. From what I have read, predators are concerned with not getting caught. They look for victims who would be easier or more accessible to kidnap.

Leaving children alone in a hotel room is the same thing as leaving them alone in a house while you go and eat dinner in a neaby resteraunt. It is just not done..period...not acceptable. Anyone who leaves young children alone in a house, while they are out someplace else is negligant, IMO....same thing goes for a hotel room.

When I stayed in hotels, I have left them to just run down the hall to the juice or coffee or vending machine (or even quickly out to the car)..but I would never, never leave the hotel premises, nor would I be gone more than the minute or two it takes to get the coffee or muffin or bag from the car. Just like in a house, I would leave them inside to go out and check the mail or grab something from the car, or pick up a toy left outside..but I would never, ever, ever leave my property or yard with my kids home alone.

Ny heart goes out to this family, and I am really sorry they are going through this. I pray for that child's safe return. However, IMO, the parents made a deliberate (bad) decision to leave the childen alone It is very different from an accident or other tragic outcome which might have been prevented, but was caused by a minor mistake or lack of supervision (ie. accidently leaving medication out, when one usually locks it up)


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## minimunklemama (Nov 24, 2004)

NO NEVER!!!

and for the record,I DO BLAME THE PARENTS.If this little girl turns up dead(iI am praying that she comesback oh so soon,poor love)then the parents should be held somewhat accountable,had they not left her alone,the chance to snatch her wouldn't have been there







:


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

No, I wouldn't leave my children alone in a hotel room. I don't blame the parents - I blame the person(s) who abducted this child.

I'm Canadian and at least where I live, people leave their kids on my street to play, unwatched in their yards. My girlfriend's mother is from the UK and she (my friend's mother) raised 6 kids. In the 1960s and 1970s, she said, the parents thought nothing of leaving their babies in a pram, unattended on a porch outside to sleep while the parent did housework in the house. No one was watching but it was assumed the child would be safe. The same friend's granny used to work, as a young woman, in a linen mill. All the working women would leave their babies in cradles in front of the fires, unattended, and go to work. A few times a day (the houses were across from the mill), they'd nip home to check on the baby. Yes, not acceptable by current standards, but they did what was commonly accepted and necessary..

I can't imagine the grief these parents feel right now at making such mistake as leaving their child alone in the room. I don't blame them - I'm sure they blame themselves more than anyone on this board can. I just feel very sorry for their suffering and hope the little girl returns to them safely. If this is a child neglect issue, I trust the authorities can judge it as so - not my interest in doing so.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minimunklemama* 
NO NEVER!!!

and for the record,I DO BLAME THE PARENTS.If this little girl turns up dead(iI am praying that she comesback oh so soon,poor love)then the parents should be held somewhat accountable,*had they not left her alone,the chance to snatch her wouldn't have been there*







:

BOLD Mine.

I would never leave my child alone in a hotel room and I do think the parents were selfish for doing so.

I disagree with the bolded part. What about the kids who are kidnapped from their bedrooms....Elizabeth Smart.....Polly Klaus.....the parents being there doesn't equal the child will not be taken. Does it make it easier? Yes. Does it mean the parents being in the hotel room/suite could have prevented the kidnapping? Maybe. Who knows. If you start holding parents accountable for their child's kidnapping just b/c they weren't there means a whole host of parents better start staying with their children 24/7 b/c that would be the only way to not be held accountable.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

. If you start holding parents accountable for their child's kidnapping just b/c they weren't there means a whole host of parents better start staying with their children 24/7 b/c that would be the only way to not be held accountable.
It's not that the parent's weren't there...it was that this children were left *ALONE*[/B] without supervision. THAT is unacceptable. If there was a babysitter, it would have been totally different. Sure, she could have STILL be abducted, but then maybe not..since the predator would have had to deal with the babysitter, making it that much harder.

Besides, even if that the child wasn't kidnapped, a whole host of other bad things could have happened, some of which are pretty likely 1) the children wake up alone/scared/crying. 1/2 hour is LONG time to cry and be scared alone 2) a child wakes up sick, throws up...again lying in vomit for 1/2 hour is NOT good. 3) a child wakes up and somehow gets out of the room and wanders around 4) if they are in cribs, a child wakes up, falls out of the crib and gets hurt 5) a chld wakes up gets hurt in a non-proofed room another way (ie, gets into medication, or whatever). 6) there is a fire and the children are trapped

Some of those things are more likely than others...but they all require adequate supervision to deal with. Checking on the kids every 1/2 hour, just doesn't cut it.


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## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

Would I leave my sleeping son in a room long enough to run down to the ice machine at the end of the hallway? Long enough to *maybe* run and grab my suitcase out of the car? Yes- I probably would (after triple checking to make sure I had the hotel key- I could just see locking myself out of the room...)

Leaving them alone in a room while you eat a meal in a restaurant, on the other hand, is a totally different thing. It would be far outside of my personal comfort zone.

Regardless of whether or not I think that this family made a poor choice, they are not responsible for their daughter's kidnapping no more than a drunk collge woman in a revealing outfit is responsible for being raped.


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## hermionesmum (Feb 8, 2007)

I have to jump in on the "British Culture" thing here.
We have a thriving sector within the hotel industry here of "family-friendly" hotels. High quality; secure, background checks on the staff, baby-listening system...
The idea is to have the kids eat earlier and be put to bed with baby listening on while mum and dad get some grown-up time in the restaurant/bar. They are expensive, we could never take a long vacation in one, but hubby and I do treat ourselves, (and the kids, they consider it a treat, too), for 2-3 days in low season each year. In my experience baby listening can be heard in the communal area of the hotel, and the staff are very quick to draw parents attention to the slightest peep.
The idea of leaving a child in a hotel room is completely normal to me, but the idea of leaving them in one without these facilities...raises eyebrows.

That said, I take my eyes off my girls now and then. It could easily be me. I've nothing but prayers and sympathy for this little girl and her family.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
It's not that the parent's weren't there...it was that this children were left *ALONE*[/B] without supervision. THAT is unacceptable. If there was a babysitter, it would have been totally different. Sure, she could have STILL be abducted, but then maybe not..since the predator would have had to deal with the babysitter, making it that much harder.

I was basing my answer off this quote....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minimunklemama*
had they not left her alone,the chance to snatch her wouldn't have been there

I disagree with it, which is what my post addressed. The chance to snatch a child is there regardless of whether a person is in the home or out of it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
Besides, even if that the child wasn't kidnapped, a whole host of other bad things could have happened, some of which are pretty likely 1) the children wake up alone/scared/crying. 1/2 hour is LONG time to cry and be scared alone 2) a child wakes up sick, throws up...again lying in vomit for 1/2 hour is NOT good. 3) a child wakes up and somehow gets out of the room and wanders around 4) if they are in cribs, a child wakes up, falls out of the crib and gets hurt 5) a chld wakes up gets hurt in a non-proofed room another way (ie, gets into medication, or whatever). 6) there is a fire and the children are trapped

Which is why I said the following.....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I would never leave my child alone in a hotel room and I do think the parents were selfish for doing so.

And this....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
Some of those things are more likely than others...but they all require adequate supervision to deal with. Checking on the kids every 1/2 hour, just doesn't cut it.

brings us back to this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini*
I would never leave my child alone in a hotel room and I do think the parents were selfish for doing so.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
But that's why we *wouldn't* leave our kids unsupervised like that -- because we *do* consider abduction (or sudden illness, or any number of other things) to be at least a possible outcome. ."

Possible, yes. But not likely.

nak....

before judging the choices of other parents, i try to consider the likelihood of harm compared to choices i make.......for example, running from the car to the house in threatening weather, letting dd swim in the ocean, or simply driving on the highway with dc in carseats. harm is possible in all of these choices, but i'm guessing my choices are more likely to result in harm than leaving a sleeping child in a locked hotel room 50 ft away (as one acct described).


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

I wouldn't leave my child alone, sleeping in a hotel room, but that's because of the way I parent. I don't judge all those patents who don't co-sleep, and I certainly don't judge these parents.
It's amazing how quick most people are to blame the parents and to pass judgement. Most of us have probably been in a situation where our child scared us to death briefly (wandering off, running into traffic, falling badly, almost falling) and where, with the tiniest variation in fate something tragic might have happened. I guess if that case, most of the rest of us would sit smugly at our keyboards and pass judgement on _that_ incident.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Does it take more or less energy to judge someone, than it is to feel compassion for them?

How does it feel to judge parents, especially a Mother who looks so ill, distressed and heartbroken she looks on the verge of physical collapse?

What purpose does judging these parents serve? Is it actually producing anything positive to help these parents? Is it helping to ease their pain in anyway?

If Maddy is not found, her parents will have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives.... while all those judging and condemning Maddy's parents will return to their normal lives in days, weeks, months and years to come, as it becomes another forgotten news story, Maddy's parents will be waking everyday with the knowledge of what may have happened to their daughter.

I have no judgement for them, they have my deepest sympathy.

Peace


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## minimunklemama (Nov 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
I wouldn't leave my child alone, sleeping in a hotel room, but that's because of the way I parent. I don't judge all those patents who don't co-sleep, and I certainly don't judge these parents.
It's amazing how quick most people are to blame the parents and to pass judgement. Most of us have probably been in a situation where our child scared us to death briefly (wandering off, running into traffic, falling badly, almost falling) and where, with the tiniest variation in fate something tragic might have happened. I guess if that case, most of the rest of us would sit smugly at our keyboards and pass judgement on _that_ incident.

there's a difference between judging those who choose not to co sleep etcand those who choose their quiet dinners over the safety of their children.the latter is just plain and simple selfish behavior.as as for a child running into a road or wandering off,these are split second happenings,you turn for a second to put something back and the child runs under a clothes rail.BUT taking time to think about leaving three children three years and under alone so that you can have a meal is different.
bad choice,if socializing without your kids is SO important,leave them at home with your parents for a few days etc or just WAIT a few years until they are older.down time is important to all of us but i would rather have my kids safe thank you very much


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

the difference between 50 ft and hundreds of yards is important.

regardless, those poor people. that poor baby.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 
Does it take more or less energy to judge someone, than it is to feel compassion for them?

How does it feel to judge parents, especially a Mother who looks so ill, distressed and heartbroken she looks on the verge of physical collapse?

What purpose does judging these parents serve? Is it actually producing anything positive to help these parents? Is it helping to ease their pain in anyway?

If Maddy is not found, her parents will have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives.... while all those judging and condemning Maddy's parents will return to their normal lives in days, weeks, months and years to come, as it becomes another forgotten news story, Maddy's parents will be waking everyday with the knowledge of what may have happened to their daughter.

I have no judgement for them, they have my deepest sympathy.

Peace


I totally agree.

Really . . . the responses on this thread have shocked and saddened me. The self-righteous condemnation of a family who are living every parent's worst nightmare *every single moment* is deeply upsetting.

At this moment, Maddy's parents are imagining that their daughter is being raped, sodomized, tortured, and abused in any way imaginable if she's even still alive. They don't know where she is, they didn't celebrate her 4th birthday with her, and they don't know if they'll ever see her alive. In fact, they don't know if they'll ever have a body to bury. They might even hope that she's dead to spare her whatever pain she might have been suffering. Can you people stop your torrent of criticisim for one moment and imagine -- really imagine -- what it must be like to be her parents?

I live in continental Europe and I can assure you that, at many resorts and hotel/apartment complexes, it is entirely normal that there are baby phone and "phone up" systems (where you call and can hear what is going on in the room) for parents who are staying there, all of which means that it *is* the norm for parents to leave their kids and dine nearby within the hotel or resort complex. Whether you would do it , especially now that this has happened, is another question, but the fact remains that I've seen these services for parents many times.

We're all going to go to bed with our children safely beside us (or in the same house). Maddy's parents aren't. Let's count our blessings, pray, if you do pray, for Maddy and her parents, and offer compassion and sympathy rather than invective.

Peace.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I totally agree.

Really . . . the responses on this thread have shocked and saddened me. The self-righteous condemnation of a family who are living every parent's worst nightmare *every single moment* is deeply upsetting.

At this moment, Maddy's parents are imagining that their daughter is being raped, sodomized, tortured, and abused in any way imaginable if she's even still alive. They don't know where she is, they didn't celebrate her 4th birthday with her, and they don't know if they'll ever see her alive. In fact, they don't know if they'll ever have a body to bury. They might even hope that she's dead to spare her whatever pain she might have been suffering. Can you people stop your torrent of criticisim for one moment and imagine -- really imagine -- what it must be like to be her parents?

I live in continental Europe and I can assure you that, at many resorts and hotel/apartment complexes, it is entirely normal that there are baby phone and "phone up" systems (where you call and can hear what is going on in the room) for parents who are staying there, all of which means that it *is* the norm for parents to leave their kids and dine nearby within the hotel or resort complex. Whether you would do it , especially now that this has happened, is another question, but the fact remains that I've seen these services for parents many times.

We're all going to go to bed with our children safely beside us (or in the same house). Maddy's parents aren't. Let's count our blessings, pray, if you do pray, for Maddy and her parents, and offer compassion and sympathy rather than invective.

Peace.


T.H.A.N.K Y.O.U !!

I have been away from my computer for a week, watching the news and constantly hoping for good news. I could not sleep last night thinking about this little girl and the gut wrenching pain her parents are going through.

I was hoping to come to MDC for talking about this story and talking to moms who feel the same grief I do, but most of the responses have really shocked me and saddened me.

I remember that when I lived in the US, whenever something horrible happened to a child, the first reaction was to demonize the parents. There weer no mistakes, no accidents, no freak occurrences: somebody has to pay for what happened. I always wondered whether it was because for some people it is easier to feel anger than sorrow - maybe that's why so many people took this route


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## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

never.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
I remember that when I lived in the US, whenever something horrible happened to a child, the first reaction was to demonize the parents. There weer no mistakes, no accidents, no freak occurrences: somebody has to pay for what happened. I always wondered whether it was because for some people it is easier to feel anger than sorrow - maybe that's why so many people took this route









Good point, it explains the lawsuit-happy culture too. Slip and fall on the walkway, blame the people who own the house. Nothing is ever the individual's fault.

Also because if you can blame the parents, then you don't have to worry about it ever happening to you.


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## mija (Sep 21, 2002)

I do think there is a (fairly slight) difference between the US and the UK when it comes to supervision, or at least between the SW UK and the NW US which is all I can speak to from personal experience. The UK is also almost totally blanketed with hidden cameras and it would be *very* difficult to get away with a kidnapping like this. I felt a lot safer letting my kids run around in the UK because of safety features like ring fencing and monitored playground entrances at big playgrounds. But I can see how it would be dangerous to take that sense of security to a different place.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I totally agree.

Really . . . the responses on this thread have shocked and saddened me. The self-righteous condemnation of a family who are living every parent's worst nightmare *every single moment* is deeply upsetting.

At this moment, Maddy's parents are imagining that their daughter is being raped, sodomized, tortured, and abused in any way imaginable if she's even still alive. They don't know where she is, they didn't celebrate her 4th birthday with her, and they don't know if they'll ever see her alive. In fact, they don't know if they'll ever have a body to bury. They might even hope that she's dead to spare her whatever pain she might have been suffering. Can you people stop your torrent of criticisim for one moment and imagine -- really imagine -- what it must be like to be her parents?

I live in continental Europe and I can assure you that, at many resorts and hotel/apartment complexes, it is entirely normal that there are baby phone and "phone up" systems (where you call and can hear what is going on in the room) for parents who are staying there, all of which means that it *is* the norm for parents to leave their kids and dine nearby within the hotel or resort complex. Whether you would do it , especially now that this has happened, is another question, but the fact remains that I've seen these services for parents many times.

We're all going to go to bed with our children safely beside us (or in the same house). Maddy's parents aren't. Let's count our blessings, pray, if you do pray, for Maddy and her parents, and offer compassion and sympathy rather than invective.

Peace.

Another resident of continental Europe here, and I could not have said it better.

I also think that we need to remind ourselves (as I tried to do in my original post) that whatever we think we might have done in the hotel situation, we all do things every single day that, statistically speaking, put our children in far greater danger. If you drive on the highway with your child in the car, your child is in greater danger than if you leave him sleeping in a hotel room alone for half an hour. If you have a hairdryer lying in the bathroom (even tidied away under the shelf) and you have a child over the age of 5, your child is in greater danger from that than from being left alone in a hotel room sleeping.

I started the thread to express my sympathy for the parents and to reflect a little about how careful we need to be and at what point we are just being paranoid. I certainly did not mean to point fingers at the parents. There but for the grace of God go I...


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I don't have any problem with 'judging' a GROSS error in judgement motivated by selfish desires.

If I get hit by a drunk driver tomorrow, and my child dies as a result, it will be the drunk driver's fault.

BUT, if I failed to have my child properly secured in an age-appropriate and well-installed child safety seat, I contributed to my child's death. And I will deserve the judgement commiserate with that level of neglect.

Same goes for these people.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I don't have any problem with 'judging' a GROSS error in judgement motivated by selfish desires.

If I get hit by a drunk driver tomorrow, and my child dies as a result, it will be the drunk driver's fault.

BUT, if I failed to have my child properly secured in an age-appropriate and well-installed child safety seat, I contributed to my child's death. And I will deserve the judgement commiserate with that level of neglect.

Same goes for these people.

Come on. That is total semantics. Anyone could just as easily have called you neglectful for not having taken the bus or the train instead, just as anyone could say that the fault lies with the kidnapper and not the parents in this case. The entire population of continental Europe could point a collective finger at the United States, where apparently more children per year are killed in car accidents than anywhere else because the US has such a car crazy culture. My daughter rides in a car approximately twice a week. How often is the average American child in a car?

In addition, since when should parental decisions be made based on whose "fault" it will be when the child is hurt? Doesn't it make more sense to base the decision on the chances of the child getting hurt, period? And if the chances of your child being kidnapped while being left alone in a hotel room are, say, one in a million but the chances of your child being killed in a car accident on the highway are, say, one is fifteen thousand, how can it makes sense to say that the parent who decides to drive when there is a perfectly good alternative transit available nevertheless shows a lower "level of neglect"?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I wouldn't not leave my child alone in a hotel room because of the chance of them getting kidnapped.

I would not leave my child alone in a hotel room because at 2 and 1, they still need me very much and the chance of one of them waking and finding themselves alone and therefore being absolutely terrified are near 100%.

The chances of the two year old getting into some mischief in which he seriously hurts himself (pulls the tv off the bureau, perhaps?) are pretty great too...30-50%.

The worst possible thing happened to these people, but it did not have to happen. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge that. I feel great pity and compassion, but they did something stupid and for selfish reasons, and that is inexcusable.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

nevermind


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
I remember that when I lived in the US, whenever something horrible happened to a child, the first reaction was to demonize the parents. There weer no mistakes, no accidents, no freak occurrences: somebody has to pay for what happened. I always wondered whether it was because for some people it is easier to feel anger than sorrow - maybe that's why so many people took this route









And to distance themselves from the possibility that it can happen to their child. I'm Canadian-American and when my daughter died after a cord accident at her birth one of my acquaintances told me she thought it must have been because I took too many aquafit classes (all that rolling around).







:

I was speechless for a variety of reasons but in retrospect I really think there is a kneejerk reaction to blame parents. Which makes me very sad.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
And to distance themselves from the possibility that it can happen to their child. .









:

If the parents made a mistake, then we rationalize that we can do better and avoid this horror. It makes us feel better if we can attribute blame to the parents.


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## UrbanSimplicity (Oct 26, 2005)

I would never, but i do feel incredibly bad for the parents (and the little girl of course.) How awful to have your dd missing, but how much worse if you have yourself to blame. I hope she is well and is found soon.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I wouldn't not leave my child alone in a hotel room because of the chance of them getting kidnapped. [snip] The worst possible thing happened to these people, but it did not have to happen. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge that. I feel great pity and compassion, but they did something stupid and for selfish reasons, and that is inexcusable.

i have to chime back in and say "ditto" to this. i'm not trying to condemn anyone. i know those people will have to live with this forever and i can't imagine how painful that will be. but i sure as hell hope it makes them think twice before leaving their other children unattended again.


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SoulJourney* 
I am very sorry for what has happened to this little girl but I, too, feel this family made some very poor, very selfish decisions. I would NEVER leave my DC alone like that. PERIOD.









:


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
but i sure as hell hope it makes them think twice before leaving their other children unattended again.

you _think_?!

is there any hopeful news? i'm too sad to look.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 







:

If the parents made a mistake, then we rationalize that we can do better and avoid this horror. It makes us feel better if we can attribute blame to the parents.









:

It's all about the illusion of control.

This is a big fault of mine. I started to get over myself when my baby was born with a heart defect after I "did it all right"--great diet, prenatal vitamins, holistic midwives, wouldn't even take robitussin when I had the worst colds, no alcohol, no smoking. I didn't "deserve" it or "attract" it, but it happened. And it turned out ok. Turns out that I'm human, and I try daily to remind myself everyone else is too.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Not putting any blame, but addressing the op's original question about leaving the kids alone...

First off, the parents are obviously not of the ap/natural family living sort, at least in this aspect. They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over. Seriously, what was their frame of thought?







They checked on the kids every 1/2 hour?! A 3yo and 2 babies? What if they woke up 1 minute after a 1/2 hour check. The parents were obviously okay with them crying alone in an unfamiliar place for at least 29 minutes or they wouldn't have left them there. So though I don't place blame on them for the person who took their little girl







I do not have respect for the way they chose to parent their children in this aspect. It shows a great deal of selfishness, which is what I commonly think of people who allow their little ones to cry alone in a room afraid for a 1/2 hour.









I would never and do not ever leave my kids alone in the hotel room. We always get connecting rooms, with a door in between 2 rooms and we take my mom or a friend with us. The door to the kids room is locked and bolted and the windows not open able. The door between the rooms is closed but unlocked and we have a monitor to listen, along with someone we know always sitting with them if we go out. I would NEVER leave my kids with a hotel babysitter. I was a hotel babysitter, for the record.







I'm great and all, but some Joe Shmoe...not matter how grandmotherly, NO WAY.


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## mamadawg (Jun 23, 2004)

I wouldn't, but that's neither here nor there in this case. I really feel for this family and that poor girl.









We're going on vacation in 2 weeks and this has given me & dp a lot to think about (not that we'd ever leave them in a hotel room, but it certainly is a reminder). I have 2 girls almost the same age as Madeleine and I just can't imagine.







: I think I'm going to be even more protective than I already am when we're on vacation this time.

I really hope she is returned to her family alive & well.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie* 
First off, the parents are obviously not of the ap/natural family living sort, at least in this aspect. They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over. Seriously, what was their frame of thought?







They checked on the kids every 1/2 hour?! A 3yo and 2 babies? What if they woke up 1 minute after a 1/2 hour check. The parents were obviously okay with them crying alone in an unfamiliar place for at least 29 minutes or they wouldn't have left them there. So though I don't place blame on them for the person who took their little girl







I do not have respect for the way they chose to parent their children in this aspect. It shows a great deal of selfishness, which is what I commonly think of people who allow their little ones to cry alone in a room afraid for a 1/2 hour.









Oh . . . in that case, since they're not AP,







the parents definitely deserved what happened to them and their little daughter.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Come on. That is total semantics. Anyone could just as easily have called you neglectful for not having taken the bus or the train instead, just as anyone could say that the fault lies with the kidnapper and not the parents in this case. The entire population of continental Europe could point a collective finger at the United States, where apparently more children per year are killed in car accidents than anywhere else because the US has such a car crazy culture. My daughter rides in a car approximately twice a week. How often is the average American child in a car?

In addition, since when should parental decisions be made based on whose "fault" it will be when the child is hurt? Doesn't it make more sense to base the decision on the chances of the child getting hurt, period? And if the chances of your child being kidnapped while being left alone in a hotel room are, say, one in a million but the chances of your child being killed in a car accident on the highway are, say, one is fifteen thousand, how can it makes sense to say that the parent who decides to drive when there is a perfectly good alternative transit available nevertheless shows a lower "level of neglect"?

And isn't it negligent to send your child to High School or College in the US? After all, look what happened at Columbine High School and Virginia Tech.

Isn't it selfish not to take your child to school every single day rather than leaving him/her at the bus stop because s/he could be kidnapped? (as was that teenage boy who, luckily, escaped unharmed).

Isn't it selfish and unconscienceable to not sleep right next to your child since they could be kidnapped out of their rooms, as what Elizabeth Smart and little Jessica (forget last name who was killed in Florida)?

Isn't it selfish to raise you child in the US at all, considering the gun violence, the *much* higher rates of kidnappings under any circumstances, and the higher road accident rates?

Where does the blame stop and the compassion begin?


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
Where does the blame stop and the compassion begin?

apparently not on this thread, as you yourself seem awfully quick to condemn others viewpoints. i think the point of this was to have a discussion about parenting choices, maybe even to see them in a different cultural light, not attack other people's opinions.

i have made many mistakes with my son and i acknowledge them. i don't think it's wrong to point out that these people also made a mistake, although i sincerely hope that their daughter returns home safely so they don't have to live with the consequences forever.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

If my children were all fast asleep and the place was as far away as my downstairs (about 50 ft give or take a few), I probably would leave them. However, I wouldn't leave the door unlocked and it would have to be visable to me at all times. I leave them upstairs several times a day.

I do not blame the parents at all. Everyone does dangerous, selfish, things everyday involving their children. Car rides? Super dangerous. Going anywhere with more than one or two children is dangerous, especially if you don't use those "abusive leashes" that lots of people on here bash. Your kid could be taken right from your side! I don't believe anyone who says they haven't put their child in danger. Maybe you wouldn't do this exact situation, but that doesn't make the parents at fault. Everyone is different, every situation is different. They had someone STEAL their child. STEAL. They think a pedophile/raper/etc.. took her. How can ANYONE sit here and blame them when their 4 year old (which, btw, they had to celebrate her 4 year birthday without her) if probably being raped, sold for sex, and/or killed? HOW? What gives any of you the right to do that? Can you imagine how they would feel if they came on here and saw this thread?

I think all of you need to go hug your children and be very thankful they're even there to hug. Her parents can't do that.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie* 
First off, the parents are obviously not of the ap/natural family living sort, at least in this aspect. They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over. Seriously, what was their frame of thought?







They checked on the kids every 1/2 hour?! A 3yo and 2 babies? What if they woke up 1 minute after a 1/2 hour check. The parents were obviously okay with them crying alone in an unfamiliar place for at least 29 minutes or they wouldn't have left them there. So though I don't place blame on them for the person who took their little girl







I do not have respect for the way they chose to parent their children in this aspect. It shows a great deal of selfishness, which is what I commonly think of people who allow their little ones to cry alone in a room afraid for a 1/2 hour.









You know, I had a feeling that is where some the hostility towards the McCanns was coming from with some people...the assumption that because they weren't cosleeping then they must not be AP, therefore they must not be very good parents. Thank you for being honest.

IME, just because some kids sleep through the night and don't wake up every 30 minutes does not mean that the parents practiced CIO. Just because parents aren't still cosleeping when their kids are 2 and nearly 4 does not mean the parents let them CIO to learn to sleep on their own.

I am sure the McCanns know about their children's sleep patterns better than anyone else, just like I know my daughter's better than anyone else. She most likely either wouldn't wake up at all through the night or would wake up once but not till after midnight. It would be reasonable for me to assume that I could eat dinner without worring that she would wake up.

I am guessing these parents made the assumption that their kids wouldn't wake up. Considering their ages, I don't see how that would be difficult to believe. If these parents were all about CIO and were selfish to the core, they probably would not have bothered to get up to check on their kids at all.

I am not saying that I think the McCanns made a great decision, and even they have now admitted they made a mistake. But I can totally see how they would have thought it was safe at the time. I saw an aerial view of the resort last night on the news and compared it to the map I keep seeing on BBC. The aeriel view made it look even closer than what I was imagining from the map. They were basically across the pool from the apartment. ABC said 150 ft although that number is ever-changing, and I have heard anything from 50ft to 300 ft. Either way, from that aeriel view, it looked pretty close. Also, I read this article about how idyllic the resort is. I could see how it would be easy to believe bad things never happen there. As a matter of fact, according to a resort rep, they never do, at least before this happened. Another article quoted a couple of parents at the resort saying they did the same thing the McCanns did all the time. Also, several members of the staff were quoted to say that the practice is very common.

I think in the context of where they were, these parents made what seemed to be a reasonable decision to them. Statisically speaking, what happend was so rare, I can understand why it wouldn't be something on the parent's radar. It's really easy to see now how the decision wasn't a good one, but like the old saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

Also, to those who blame the McCanns, but then say you yourself have left the room to go get coffee and a muffin or even went for quick trip to the car, and you think that is okay, I would think twice before you judge. The authorities in this case suspect the kidnapper was are part of an international pedophile ring and that this was a "to order" kidnapping. He was a pro working with other pros. All he needed was a few minutes to jimmy the window, snatch Madeleine, and leave out the front door. The authorites believe the kidnapper was stalking and waiting for his moment. If you were at a hotel and decided to go get your breakfast down the hall and around the corner every morning, that would have been a great chance for a stalker to have made their move on your child. Even better, while you were out at the car, they could have pulled the fire alarm denying you easy access back into the building and giving them a perfect chance to run from the building with a screaming child without anyone thinking anything of it.

I think we as parents make decision everyday that risk our kids lives. Some out of necessity, some out of selfishness, some out of just down right fatigue, and some because that is just life and we are human. Analizing how we can do better and learn form other's mistakes is a great idea and very constructive. I just don't see what the point is in assigning blame to these parents and making value judgements on their parenting style. Just because some parents practice AP/NFL does not protect them or their children from harm. I think that is really naive to believe so, but maybe it brings some people comfort.

If you have read this far, thank you and sorry for the novel. I don't expect anyone to change their mind. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine. Of course it could change based on any new information that comes to light. I just felt the need to put it out there.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
apparently not on this thread, as you yourself seem awfully quick to condemn others viewpoints. i think the point of this was to have a discussion about parenting choices, maybe even to see them in a different cultural light, not attack other people's opinions.

i have made many mistakes with my son and i acknowledge them. i don't think it's wrong to point out that these people also made a mistake, although i sincerely hope that their daughter returns home safely so they don't have to live with the consequences forever.

I was thinking about this thread at work today, it caused me so much anger yesterday evening.

(Not your post, the thread in general)

My initial reaction was that this thread wasn't a discussion in regards to parenting choices... but more of an opportunity for many to condemn Maddy's parents. I would need to wonder WHY any of us have the need or want to point out that Maddy's parents made a mistake in the first place. I think that they themselves realise this. And judging by the physical frailty of the Mother at this point, she's more than aware of what her mistake was.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel those that judge harshly do so with the intention (although unintentional maybe) of making themselves feel better. Such as, 'Oh they're terrible parents, how shocking and neglectful of them, I would never do such a thing' (Insert symbolic pat on the back here)

I just find this whole situation tragic. My heart hurts everytime that I see a photo of Maddy on TV or in the paper. And I can almost feel the desparation, heartbreak and despair of Maddy's parents at this time. Why oh why, would any one of us want to judge harshly people who are experiencing so much pain at this moment in time?

caspian.. this post isn't aimed at you. Sorry, it was the first one on this page that mentioned something relevent to what I wanted to say.







:

Peace
Imogen


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
You know, I had a feeling that is where some the hostility towards the McCanns was coming from with some people...the assumption that because they weren't cosleeping then they must not be AP, therefore they must not be very good parents. Thank you for being honest.


Thank you so much for this post....


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

All right, the question in the OP is "Would you leave your kids in a hotel room (like these people did)," and most people here answered no. Then, of course, the thread degenerates into "I blame them," or "Don't judge them!" and "Where is your compassion?"

Well, I've been appalled at the choice those parents made, ever since I first read the story, and it's a choice I would never, never make. At the same time, my heart breaks for them. I don't think they _deserve_ to lose their baby. I hope against hope that the child is returned unharmed.

You know, if I'd heard in passing that a couple left their small children sleeping alone in a hotel room while they ate their dinner, even if nothing bad happened, it would disturb me. I understand craving alone time. I'm a single mom, I don't get any breaks. But I wouldn't consider doing something like those parents did. At the same time, there's room in my heart to feel for them. The worst possible thing happened to them.

That's all I can say, I don't think I want to read this thread any more.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

By saying "like these people did" when you already know what happened to their child, the blame is automatically placed on them. If there had been a thread that said "would you leave your child alone in a hotel room" with no "like _those_ people" type accusation, it would be different. That statement tainted the whole thread.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

ot

don't you wish the feds would spend as much time, energy, and mone infiltrating pedophile rings as they do fighting their 'war on drugs'?









i could name you several sites offhand that would put a lump in your throat, where they congregate & get to know each other, all very legal, & very careful to get to know one another before passing on 'private' info. they have support boards very much like mdc, where they discuss tactics and feel very put upon that they are misunderstood.

imagine if the focus used to bust someone importing _bongs_ was put on apprehending the producers of child porn.

remember shasta & dylan groene? you do know 'jet' duncan was taking video of everything he did to those poor children, right? he wasn't one whack, disturbed individual- he was _providing a market with product_.

let your politicians know if you think resources used to prosecute the drug war would be better spent fighting those who profit from child porn. it's big business.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
apparently not on this thread, as you yourself seem awfully quick to condemn others viewpoints. i think the point of this was to have a discussion about parenting choices, maybe even to see them in a different cultural light, not attack other people's opinions.

I'm not attacking other people's viewpoints. I don't think it's wrong to say, "wow, I don't think I would ever leave my kid alone in a hotel room, even had this horrible incident never happened." I've not "attacked" anyone who said that.

What I have said, however, with no apologies, is that I find the constant use of terms such as "selfish" and "gross negligence" to describe the McCann's not only completely lacking in compassion and self-righteous, but also bordering on the inconsistent. I was raising the question of what actually constitutes negligence, especially given the cultural context (which, as I pointed out, I happen to know, since I live in Europe). Is that "attacking" or is that responding with my own viewpoint? If it is responding with my own viewpoint, then aren't you "attacking" my viewpoint?

As another poster already said, I think that this post has run its course and has degenerated completely.


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Absolutely not.

We often get suites and order up room service after dd is asleep in the bedroom. Add a nice bottle of wine, some candles, and a little music and it is a date.









:


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn* 
By saying "like these people did" when you already know what happened to their child, the blame is automatically placed on them. If there had been a thread that said "would you leave your child alone in a hotel room" with no "like _those_ people" type accusation, it would be different. That statement tainted the whole thread.

No, it wouldn't. I judge them because independent of what happened, they made an incredibly selfish and BAD decision. If I had heard of someone doing this where nothing horrible happened, I would judge them just as fiercely.

Of course, the fact that I think they screwed up in a major way means I think they DESERVE what happened, right? Give me a break!


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## mamabearsoblessed (Jan 8, 2003)

In answer to the op's question. Would I leave my child in a hotel room? *Absolutely no.*
As for this family~ I am praying their daughter is brought home alive and well. I am praying Maddy is safe. I cannot bear to even imagine the nightmare they are living right now.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

No, I'd never leave my child in a motel room.

I haven't had a chance to read all the comments -- so I don't know if what I'm about to say has already been touched on.

When I visited Great Britain in the late 1980's, it wasn't unheard-of, in smaller towns, to sometimes see a baby in a pram parked on the sidewalk outside a store, while the mother shopped inside. But I don't recall seeing this in London or any of the bigger cities. Still, even in a small town, I just can't imagine doing that.

I don't mean to imply that even a majority of British mamas would do such a thing. Even in a culture where it's more "the norm" to leave a baby on the street or alone in a motel room, the parents still should be connected enough to their own child, to know not to do that.

It's like cry-it-out: it's just plain wrong, no matter how many of your friends and relatives are doing it.

But I speak from the perspective of being an AP mama who's become accustomed to questioning the norm and going against the flow, weighing every cultural practice against my own children's unique needs and feelings. I suppose parents who've never questioned whatever's accepted among their social "set," are more likely to mechanically go along with stuff without even thinking it through.

They're still responsible for their actions, but I also do feel sorry for any parent who loses a child. I feel more sorry for the child, though.

And yes, the kidnappers are the real villains.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Even in a culture where it's more "the norm" to leave a baby on the street or alone in a motel room, *the parents still should be connected enough to their own child, to know not to do that*.


I have a HUUUUUUUGE problem with that statement
Maybe you don't know this, but in countries like Denmark it is very common for parents to leave their babies sleeping outside in the pram while they go in the shops or cafe briefly. Saying that parents who do that are no connected to their own child and should know better is very judgemental and undermines the different culture and local situation.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I would not leave my children in the room "like they did". But if we are in a hotel, we have been known to take our key, and pace the hall for a little quiet stroll while they sleep. I would never leave the door open or be gone long, though.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Also, to those who blame the McCanns, but then say you yourself have left the room to go get coffee and a muffin or even went for quick trip to the car, and you think that is okay, I would think twice before you judge.

I'm going to presume that you're getting different posts mixed up, since I said I've left to get coffee and muffin while my MOTHER and DD were asleep in a hotel room. I'm the only one on the whole thread who said I've left to get coffee and muffins down the hall. And, I didn't say I blame Madeline's parents. I answered the OP question that at first I thought no, I'd never leave my child in a hotel room alone. Then upon further consideration I said I might have done it before, but I certainly wouldn't do it knowing what I know now.

I don't get the whole weird notion of blame. Are they "to blame?" How on Earth would I know? What difference would that make? Do I think it's fair she was taken? No. Do I think it's right? No. Are they responsible for her kidnapping? No. Might the outcome have been different if they'd made different choices? Yes, but so what?

I also said that they might have called attention to the fact that there was a child unprotected in the room by going back every half hour. (Again, I don't see that this is "blame.") I do kinda think a few minutes as opposed to a half hour is "safer" in that case. Just like I wouldn't handcuff a briefcase to my arm if I were carrying a lot of cash on the subway. It draws attention to the fact that there's something stealable.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Primigravida* 
I don't think I'm reading this right???







:

They left........
a 3yr old..........
alone........
with two 2yr olds....
in a hotel room
300 ft away

That don't sound very bright.........


Thank you. I hold whoever kidnapped the little girl responsible for kidnapping the little girl, but mom and dad were certainly negligent in leaving a three year old and 2 year old twins unsupervised. What if there was a fire? What if one of them was sick or hurt? I am sure they regret what they did now, but it seems that they didn't really think that choice through very well.
So in response to the OP's question, absolutely not. I wouldn't leave my 6 year old alone in a hotel room, much less my toddlers. I feel very badly for the parents and even more badly for the little girl, but the parents made a very stupid choice that contributed to the tragedy of the whole situation.

Namaste,

Michelle


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

I am a bit confused about something. I keep seeing people say they would step out of the room for a little while with the door locked and not open. It seems odd to me to emphasize that fact unless maybe you are implying the McCanns left the door open, although maybe I am reading that wrong. All the sources I have read have said that the McCanns locked the door, but the door was wide open when they got back because the abductor left out the front door after breaking in thorugh the window. So, has it been reported somewhere that the McCanns themselves left the door open or unlocked? If so, could you provide a link or at least the name of the source? Just curious for my own knowledge...not a challenge or anything.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

It never would have occurred to me to leave a toddler by herself ANYWHERE- not at home, in a car, in a hotel room, in a park... I do feel for the parents, though. A very poor judgement call but they don't deserve to lose their precious baby. :sob

Riverscout- Thanks for your post. I didn't see the news but was kind of wondering how far they'd really gone. Confirms my suspicion that they didn't feel that they'd really gone far at all. Probably felt that they were just "in the yard".


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I am a bit confused about something. I keep seeing people say they would step out of the room for a little while with the door locked and not open. It seems odd to me to emphasize that fact unless maybe you are implying the McCanns left the door open, although maybe I am reading that wrong. All the sources I have read have said that the McCanns locked the door, but the door was wide open when they got back because the abductor left out the front door after breaking in thorugh the window. So, has it been reported somewhere that the McCanns themselves left the door open or unlocked? If so, could you provide a link or at least the name of the source? Just curious for my own knowledge...not a challenge or anything.

When I read the orginal article, it said they left it cracked so they could pop in to check on them without the sound waking them.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I think a lot of people here don't know how stalking a child for abduction purposes works. They don't wait for an easy target- they choose children with a high value, cute kids, light kids. They then watch a family's habits for days or weeks, and as soon as the kid is away from the parents, they snatch her.

Some PPs have pointed out that this can happen anywhere, anytime, and it's right. It takes all of five seconds. They are pros, they have their car right there.

These parents might have made the stalkers' job easier, and it might have been possible to prevent. But anyone who has left her child in a room by herself, in the yard, in a car, for any more than three minutes, has risked it. Your two-year-old runs behind you, you don't turn around because you think your husband is right there, anyway you come to this park all the time, you laugh at the joke, you turn around, and your baby is gone.

The original article said the window had been jimmied open.







The stalkers didn't need an open door- they probably assumed the door was locked, and anyway wouldn't have wanted to be seen walking through a lobby or in the light with the child. They probably needed cover from behind the window anyway. The door is not going to help you.







This is such a tragedy.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I'm going to presume that you're getting different posts mixed up, since I said I've left to get coffee and muffin while my MOTHER and DD were asleep in a hotel room. I'm the only one on the whole thread who said I've left to get coffee and muffins down the hall. And, I didn't say I blame Madeline's parents. I answered the OP question that at first I thought no, I'd never leave my child in a hotel room alone. Then upon further consideration I said I might have done it before, but I certainly wouldn't do it knowing what I know now.

I don't get the whole weird notion of blame. Are they "to blame?" How on Earth would I know? What difference would that make? Do I think it's fair she was taken? No. Do I think it's right? No. Are they responsible for her kidnapping? No. Might the outcome have been different if they'd made different choices? Yes, but so what?

I also said that they might have called attention to the fact that there was a child unprotected in the room by going back every half hour. (Again, I don't see that this is "blame.") I do kinda think a few minutes as opposed to a half hour is "safer" in that case. Just like I wouldn't handcuff a briefcase to my arm if I were carrying a lot of cash on the subway. It draws attention to the fact that there's something stealable.


I don't get the notion of blame here either which was kind of my point. And no, I wasn't getting different posts "mixed up" as in being confused, but I was simply refering to more than one post...a composite if you will...which is why I said "to those" as in more than one person. I was not just refering to you which is why I didn't quote you.

You were not the only one who said you left the room briefly for something like ice, coffee, juice, vending machine snack, trip to the car, or whatever and thought that was okay but what these parents did was questionable, although you may have been the only one who mentioned coffee AND a muffin. Your example just stuck in my head so I used it.

Also, while you said you left your mom in the room with your child, you also said you probably would have done the same thing without her there. In addition, I don't see where you said you wouldn't do it knowing what you know now. Good to know though.

Since this thread has come to the point of bickering about muffins, I am out. Peace.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 







:

Especially in reference to a few hundred feet and eating dinner, at first I thought "they must be insane!" Then with the idea of 50 feet... I remembered that in a hotel in December, I woke up early, couldn't get back to sleep, and left my 2 year old asleep in bed while I went down the hall to get coffee and a muffin. *Now, in that case, my mom was also asleep in the room, but I bet I would have done it anyway even if she hadn't been.* I brought them back to the room, and was back within 5 minutes, but I couldn't see the hotel room door the whole time. *I can see going down the hall for ice, or coffee, or whatever, seeming pretty safe when a child is sleeping and the door is locked.*

*I can't see being gone for 1/2 hour at a stretch though during a long dinner.* I suspect that the predator knew where to find the girl either by stalking the family, or the parents called attention to the fact that there was an unprotected child in the room by going back to the room constantly during dinner.

If they had only been gone for 5 to 10 minutes and not for an extended period of time, I would figure someone had to be stalking the family. A predator isn't going to randomly break into rooms to see if he (or she) happens to find children. And if someone had broken into a whole string of rooms, that would probably have been reported too.

This is what you were yeah thating:

Quote:

I could see leaving my kids, with the door locked, long enough to go down the hall to get ice or a soda from the vending machines or something. I rarely stay at hotels with room service. But I can't imagine leaving long enough to have a meal in a resturant. No freakin' way.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

No, I wouldn't.

My dd, almost exactly the same age, would wake up, find me not there and go search for me.
I do not want to attack the parents. What they are going through seems unlivable.
Like everyone else, I just dearly want this sweet baby returned to her parents.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl* 
No, I wouldn't.

My dd, almost exactly the same age, would wake up, find me not there and go search for me.
I do not want to attack the parents. What they are going through seems unlivable.
Like everyone else, I just dearly want this sweet baby returned to her parents.

Yeah, that.


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

OMG!!! They left a child and her 2, 2 yr old sibs in a room while they had dinner!!! That is horribly selfish. She's 3!!! Sleeping or not, no child that age should be left alone EVER!

I've stayed at many hotels with my children (From 1 to now 4) and I've not left my children to even unload the van, they came with me in a single file line back and forth as I unloaded our bags.

No doubt it would have been easier to leave them in the room with the TV on, but I didn't think it was safe at all.

Even stupid behavior does not mean I don't feel sorry for this family, this is tragic and very sad. I do hope that she is recovered safely, however, like most child abductions -- they child is never returned in the same condition and often times not alive.

Our most precious gifts are our children and to think it is responsible to check on a 3 yr old and 2 2 yr old every 30 mintues while having dinner is flat out insane.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
I have a HUUUUUUUGE problem with that statement
Maybe you don't know this, but in countries like Denmark it is very common for parents to leave their babies sleeping outside in the pram while they go in the shops or cafe briefly. Saying that parents who do that are no connected to their own child and should know better is very judgemental and undermines the different culture and local situation.

To explain why leaving a baby outside in a pram seems disconnected to me -- I guess I should share my experience with my own babies. Both had an intensive need to be snuggled close to me; neither enjoyed the stroller 'til about age 2, when I tried it again 'cause it was getting too hard to wear them for long walks.

Even when they DID start liking it, it would never occur to me to feel safe leaving them outside while I shopped. And, in my experience, sleeping babies/children sometimes wake up sooner than expected and are frightened if they don't see Momma. So, even if I felt 100% safe leaving my sleeping child outside the store (and, as I said, I can't imagine ever feeling safe doing that) -- I still would never take the risk of her waking up, looking around, and seeing nothing but strangers. How scary!

It just doesn't seem "connected" to me to take either of those risks -- the risk of Baby being snatched or the risk of Baby waking and feeling abandoned.

There are some American practices that seem just as detached to me. For instance, I'm seen as the "oddball" by some at church because I won't drop my little ones off at the classroom door, and just let them cry and get used to being away from me. My children decide when they're ready to do some things separately from me, and I refuse to force the issue.

So I certainly don't see detached parenting as a just a "Danish" or "European" thing. It's just about everywhere I've been in this world. After hearing some refer to Madeleine's parents' choice as a "cultural" thing, my response was simply that we, as parents, have a responsibility to listen to our kids and not tune them out in order to follow the "norms" of society.

If you leave your child in a motel room (or in a pram outside a store), the risk of abduction is probably a lot smaller than the risk of your child waking up and being frightened without you.

To me, _neither_ risk is acceptable.

That said, my heart still aches for Madeleine and her parents, and I hope she's all right and comes home soon. Just because I disagree with the parents' choice (they probably feel the same way now), and don't think it's excused by whatever the norms are in their social set, that doesn't mean I think they're totally detached and don't love their children. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
The authorities in this case suspect the kidnapper was are part of an international pedophile ring and that this was a "to order" kidnapping. He was a pro working with other pros. .

omg.....I can not believe such a group even exists.....this is so horribly terrifying and disturbing and heartwrenching and hideous and sickening and I just want to vomit







:


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Yes it's truly hideous, am feeling same.


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
omg.....I can not believe such a group even exists.....this is so horribly terrifying and disturbing and heartwrenching and hideous and sickening and I just want to vomit







:

Having grown up out side the US, I know this exist. I know it too well. In Latin America healthy babies and children are abducted for their organs! A young woman had her child statched out of his stroller in a local shopping area in 97, she was a runner and caught him and got her child back, the abductor unfortunately got away.

I went to visit my family in 99 and wore my ds1 at all times away from the house, he didn't like the sling at all, but I didn't give him a choice while where were there and he was 5 mo old. The house was completely barred, alarm system, and consentina wired at the top of the 7 foot wall the surrounded my parents' home. And yet even those measure are not a deterent to a thief.


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## Cranberry (Mar 18, 2002)

No, I wouldn't leave DS alone in a hotel room, and I wouldn't let someone I didn't know babysit him either. I just would not be comfortable with either situation.

I feel bad for these UK parents and can't begin to imagine what they are going through, or what is happening to that poor little girl.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie* 
They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over.

Well I am AP - to establish what I mean by that, I've worn my son since he was born, breastfeed on demand, co-sleep in a slightly modified for our comfort way (he sleeps the early part of the night), CLW, etc. - and as I said, my husband and I thought about something similar. We did have a baby monitor. But my son generally speaking sleeps deeply in his crib from when he goes down to about 12:30 or 1 am, at which point he wakes up and is brought into our bed to co-sleep the rest of the night. When we were on holiday he slept in a playpen and he loved it, I think because he liked the smaller space. He actually slept through 'til 3 am and then came in with us, every night but the first.

Part of being an AP parent is being tuned into your kids. My son loved the inn's rooms, esp. ours, he loved having us both playing all day, and after the first day he was really secure and happy there.

It was mostly just not having a pressing need to have a dinner alone, that made us decide to let it go. But really I don't know how you can say that no APer ever would consider that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I wouldn't leave dd (4) and ds2 (almost 2) alone in a hotel room. This story is upsetting me even more than it normally would, as dd turned 4 on the 9th, and I know Maddie is almost exactly the same age. It's turning my guts inside out thinking about dd disappearing like this.

The parents made a bad decision, and it's one they'll regret for the rest of their lives, even if Maddie is found alive.









That said, I'm not going to say it was a selfish decision. I have no idea what factors came into play to make them decide to handle this the way they did. I don't know what the culture _in that resort_ was like. I know it's easy to be lulled into a false sense of security, and this resort sounds very effective at that. I doubt if they really thought of the possible repercussions of leaving their children alone. I can't call it selfish, without knowing what they were thinking. IMO, they made a huge error of judgment, and they're paying a higher price for that error of judgment than anybody should ever have to pay.

As far as blame is concerned...I feel the blame lies _solely_ on the sicko who stole Maddie.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I think a lot of people here read "hotel" and instantly envision a humongous American Ramada Inn. I've been to Italian hotels that are much "homier," more like a (very beautiful and elegant) B&B than like a gray American commodity inn.

This could totally happen to my children in my home. They sleep in a separate room, (technically on a separate floor!) they don't ordinarily wake in the night, and I rarely lock my doors.

Yes, it's a frightening thought, but... if something DID happen to my children, I'd hope the Cult of Good Motherhood would place the blame where it squarely belongs-- on the criminal.

Not try to parse out my "detached" parenting practices.







: Because frankly, none of you know much about why we do it that way.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, I've had more time to think, and I'm realizing those of us who are judging the parents, are probably doing it as a sort of defense mechanism.

It's frightening to think something of this nature could happen to ANY of our children. True, I wouldn't leave my children alone in a motel room. But what about the times when my 7yo runs to the backyard to dig for worms, while I'm watching my 2yo in the front? True, we have a fence all around our property, but it's certainly not impassable.

How do we let our children have normal, healthy, adventurous childhoods -- and still ensure nothing bad can ever happen to them? How do we exercise constant vigilance without burdening and immobilizing our children with our fears?

It's so much easier to think, "I've got nothing to worry about, 'cause I'm a better parent than those parents." It's easier to think that only negligent parents have their little ones stolen.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I said that I wouldn't leave my kids (at that age) in a hotel room and it's true, I wouldn't have. It's just outside my comfort zone.

But what I didn't say is that I do not blame the parents for what happened. The one who is at fault is the person(s) who took the little girl from her room.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I am not interested in blaming the parents either...what happened is horrible, but they didn't do anything horrible imo.....but the link said:

"Madeleine's parents - both doctors - had been having a meal in a tapas restaurant a few hundred yards from the apartment"

Even if that was 300 yards (a few), that is 3 football fields away. That is much farther than most of us normally leave our children, I would think. But maybe the distance estimate was wrong?


Haven`t read any further than this. Here in Norway the distance estimate has been 40 meters, since the first time I read about this story. I am not very good at translating yards to meters, but I am pretty sure 40 meters is a heck of a lot shorter than 300 yards?


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl* 
You asked what were they thinking--and I am wondering (not to single out this post, or anything like that) if perhaps this is a cultural thing? I know that in some countries it is perfectly normal to leave your baby totally out in the open (meaning outdoors, not out naked or anything like that) in a stroller asleep OUTSIDE a department store while mum goes in to shop.
Perhaps this is something that would be considered 'normal'? In the US--forget it, kids (even at age 13) can get abducted from small towns as they hop off of a school bus (in reference to the two boys who were recently rescued from an abductor).
Regardless it's heartbreaking.


Here in Norway it`s ¨pretty normal to see sleeping babies (in strollers) outside cafè`s when the parents are inside. They usually sit very close to the door and/or thw window, though.








I have never done this, but it`s considered both pretty normal and safe here.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I think it's been established that this is not an accepted cultural practice. Even if it were, it doesn't make it smart.

It's accepted cultural practice to circumcise in the US. Still inexcusable.

Well, here in Norway it is considered ok, normal and safe to leave babies in their strollers outside small shops and cafè`s.







So it is most definitely an accepted cultural practice here.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoctorGirlfriend* 
Um, why? Why wouldn't you blame someone for making a bad decision?

It's an awful thing, of course, and they must be going through hell. But I blame them.

Why?

Because I have done bad things myself. I have made bad decisions. Plenty of them. And I have lucked out. Nothing bad has happened to my child. Thank God.

IF something terrible had happened to my child because I made a wrong judgement, then I pray people would focus on helping me, support me and stand by me. Not judge me for being human.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I totally agree.

Really . . . the responses on this thread have shocked and saddened me. The self-righteous condemnation of a family who are living every parent's worst nightmare *every single moment* is deeply upsetting.

At this moment, Maddy's parents are imagining that their daughter is being raped, sodomized, tortured, and abused in any way imaginable if she's even still alive. They don't know where she is, they didn't celebrate her 4th birthday with her, and they don't know if they'll ever see her alive. In fact, they don't know if they'll ever have a body to bury. They might even hope that she's dead to spare her whatever pain she might have been suffering. Can you people stop your torrent of criticisim for one moment and imagine -- really imagine -- what it must be like to be her parents?

I live in continental Europe and I can assure you that, at many resorts and hotel/apartment complexes, it is entirely normal that there are baby phone and "phone up" systems (where you call and can hear what is going on in the room) for parents who are staying there, all of which means that it *is* the norm for parents to leave their kids and dine nearby within the hotel or resort complex. Whether you would do it , especially now that this has happened, is another question, but the fact remains that I've seen these services for parents many times.

We're all going to go to bed with our children safely beside us (or in the same house). Maddy's parents aren't. Let's count our blessings, pray, if you do pray, for Maddy and her parents, and offer compassion and sympathy rather than invective.

Peace.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I so, so wholeheartedly agree with everything in this post. Being a Norwegian, living in Norway, I know for a fact that things are very different here than it seems to be in USA. An example:EVERYONE leaves their babies asleep in the stroller in their yard/outside their house. Everyone. It is just the way things are. And it is safe.


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## DoctorGirlfriend (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
Why?

Because I have done bad things myself. I have made bad decisions. Plenty of them. And I have lucked out. Nothing bad has happened to my child. Thank God.

IF something terrible had happened to my child because I made a wrong judgement, then I pray people would focus on helping me, support me and stand by me. Not judge me for being human.

Right, but, here's the thing: I can say, "Man, dumb decision" and still feel sympathy/compassion for someone. The two don't cancel each other out.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

yeah but there is a big difference between saying dumb decision, and saying the parents have no one to blame but themselves (as someone actually said somewhere in this thread)


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Okay I said earlier I was out, but WTH, I'm back to make a quick point.

According to Merriam Webster online, *blame* is defined as:

*1 : to find fault with : CENSURE*

(and censure is defined as:
1 : a judgment involving condemnation
2 archaic : OPINION, JUDGMENT
3 : the act of blaming or condemning sternly
4 : an official reprimand)

*2 a : to hold responsible b : to place responsibility for*

IMO, there is a distinct difference between saying you think someone made a mistake or used poor judgement than saying you blame someone.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
Being a Norwegian, living in Norway, I know for a fact that things are very different here than it seems to be in USA. An example:EVERYONE leaves their babies asleep in the stroller in their yard/outside their house. Everyone. It is just the way things are. And it is safe.

That is just so completely different from my frame of reference, I can't even fathom it. My babies pretty much take their naps right ON me, or next to me, 'til they're about one. My oldest would wake right up if I tried to lay her down, as a smaller baby. My youngest, at 2, still stays latched on to my breast for most or all of her nap.

That said, they have sometimes had their naps outdoors, but I've been out there with them. Maybe the U.S. has a much higher crime rate than most European countries ... it's just mind-boggling for me to imagine feeling _safe_ being in the house with my sleeping baby alone in the yard. But I'm sure there are things about U.S. culture that are shocking to Norwegians.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I wouldn't do it, but I live in the USA and have a different frame of reference. Reading some of the posts on this thread has made me feel very sad. Someone said that many of those blaming the parents might need to do so as sort of a defense mechanism, the "Things this awful wouldn't happen if the parents hadn't XYZ" need to believe that we can protect our children 100% of the time if we just make the right choices. I hope they are right, because really some of the posts pointing fingers at the parents are just so mean.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
Here in Norway it`s ¨pretty normal to see sleeping babies (in strollers) outside cafè`s when the parents are inside. They usually sit very close to the door and/or thw window, though.








I have never done this, but it`s considered both pretty normal and safe here.

Just curious, but do cafes in Norway not have outdoor seating? We just ate out with ds this weekend, and found it really convenient for him to sit in his stroller while we ate (too young for a high chair)....so we chose to sit outdoors and pull up the stroller. I am just wondering why anyone would choose to eat indoors and leave the baby in the stroller outside.....why not just eat outdoors?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Electra375* 
Having grown up out side the US, I know this exist. I know it too well. In Latin America healthy babies and children are abducted for their organs! .


God help us all


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## DoctorGirlfriend (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
yeah but there is a big difference between saying dumb decision, and saying the parents have no one to blame but themselves (as someone actually said somewhere in this thread)

I missed that, then.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Just curious, but do cafes in Norway not have outdoor seating? We just ate out with ds this weekend, and found it really convenient for him to sit in his stroller while we ate (too young for a high chair)....so we chose to sit outdoors and pull up the stroller. I am just wondering why anyone would choose to eat indoors and leave the baby in the stroller outside.....why not just eat outdoors?

I had my 2 oldest in Denmark. There moms have their babies sleeping outside because they sleep better out in the open - even in daycare centers, you will often see babies being put in outside areas in their big prams to sleep. It is also practical in the winter because they are very well packed in cozy woolen bags, and it would be stupid to unwrap the babies all up wake them if they are sleeping so well as it is.
Yes, in the summer people do sit outside, but most of the year you will see parents sitting indoors in front of the big cafe windows with their babies parked right outside. And no, there is no danger for the babies to fall out: they wear some specially made harnesses attatched to the pram, and the prams pass safety controls to make sure they will never tip (even with a 2yo toddler inside)


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Just curious, but do cafes in Norway not have outdoor seating? We just ate out with ds this weekend, and found it really convenient for him to sit in his stroller while we ate (too young for a high chair)....so we chose to sit outdoors and pull up the stroller. I am just wondering why anyone would choose to eat indoors and leave the baby in the stroller outside.....why not just eat outdoors?


Because this is Norway!









The weather is not at all warm enough to eat outside all year. Not even half the year.







And, yes, today many cafes have outdoor seating. (after our "no smoking in puplic indoorplaces at all" law came a few years ago, almost every cafe has outdoor seating. ) But as I said, the weather here is only warm enough for outdoor eating a few months every year. May, June, July and August at the most.

Here`s a link to a page with a picture of the kind of pram we use here: Pram


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
I had my 2 oldest in Denmark. There moms have their babies sleeping outside because they sleep better out in the open - even in daycare centers, you will often see babies being put in outside areas in their big prams to sleep. It is also practical in the winter because they are very well packed in cozy woolen bags, and it would be stupid to unwrap the babies all up wake them if they are sleeping so well as it is.
Yes, in the summer people do sit outside, but most of the year you will see parents sitting indoors in front of the big cafe windows with their babies parked right outside. And no, there is no danger for the babies to fall out: they wear some specially made harnesses attatched to the pram, and the prams pass safety controls to make sure they will never tip (even with a 2yo toddler inside)


You said it much better.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
That said, they have sometimes had their naps outdoors, but I've been out there with them. Maybe the U.S. has a much higher crime rate than most European countries ... it's just mind-boggling for me to imagine feeling _safe_ being in the house with my sleeping baby alone in the yard. But I'm sure there are things about U.S. culture that are shocking to Norwegians.

Personally, I slept with my son when he needed daytime naps. But that`s me. Most others here don`t. When I didn`t wanna sleep when he needed to, I took him out for a walk in his "stroller". (Pram, is that the right word?)

About safety: I can`t remember having heard of a baby being kidnapped/hurt when sleeping outside in the yard in years and years. Maybe not ever. Ofcourse, it happens that Norwegian children gets hurt/kidnapped. But this is very, very rare. Very. Not even 1 child per year, I would guess. In all of Norway.


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## thebee321 (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelanieMC* 
I have a friend who went to las vegas with her husband and two children (ages 10 mons. and 2 1/2 at the time) and left them up in the room to go gamble down in the hotels casino. They were on the 18th floor, so it would take them at least 5 min. to get from the ground floor up to their floor (seeing as how it's a busy casino and the elevator stops frequently). They didn't even have a monitor, they just laid them in the center of the bed and left. She told me that they did go and check in about every hour or so, and they were down there from 9pm to around 3 in the morning.








:

This is a long thread, and I haven't gotten all the way through, but I just have to say - That is SOOO WRONG!!!! Hotel rooms are broken into all the time. And think of every hotel employee who can just get into every room with their key. Do they trust every hotel employee?


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoctorGirlfriend* 
Right, but, here's the thing: I can say, "Man, dumb decision" and still feel sympathy/compassion for someone. The two don't cancel each other out.

Ok.









I personally wouldn`t feel comfortable AT ALL saying that. It would feel like I was putting stone to their already extremely heavy burden. And I know that it would make me very sad to know that other mothers around the world judged me when I was having the most difficult, desperately painful time of my life. So I don`t do that to others either.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
Because this is Norway!









The weather is not at all warm enough to eat outside all year. Not even half the year.









Well, I actually considered that before I asked.....but i am having a difficult time reconciling "too cold for adults to eat outside" and "leave baby outside"
i'll take your word for it that the babies sleep better that way!


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Well, I actually considered that before I asked.....but i am having a difficult time reconciling "too cold for adults to eat outside" and "leave baby outside"
i'll take your word for it that the babies sleep better that way!

I was actually JUST about to hit "POST" on a reply I had to her comment, because I have often heard people who don't live in Scandinavia say "how come it is too cold for adults to sit out and not too cold for babies?"

Well, here is a very widely used baby sleeping bag in Norway, Denmark and Sweden. It is 100% thick inner core and therefore insulates the warmth perfectly! The baby sleeps in there absolutely warm and cozy. I am Brazilian and was therefore suspicious at first, so I was amazed everytime I took DD out at how warm and cozy she felt!

I guess people in Scandinavia just know how to dress better than anyone! I mean, my nephew goes to a "Outdoors Preschool" - they don't even own a building and meet everyday at parks, the beach, the woods ALL YEAR AROUND, rain, snow or sun! The children LOVE it and are always warm enough - they are just appropriately dressed for every occasion








Well, enough "off topic" I just wanted show that what sometimes may seem like inconsiderate and crazy parenting behaviour, may not always be.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Well, I actually considered that before I asked.....but i am having a difficult time reconciling "too cold for adults to eat outside" and "leave baby outside"
i'll take your word for it that the babies sleep better that way!


I assure you, our babies are not cold.







They are in big prams, with lots of clothes and in warm woolen bags. The pram sheilds them from wind, snow and cold weather. They are not at all cold. But to sit outside, eating, midwinter in snow, that`s not very cozy.

Think about it this way: Don`t you ever go outside on cold winterdays? Can you see that there is a difference in going outside for a walk, with baby lying warm in his/her pram, and sitting outside, completely still, eating dinner in the same cold weather?

To be honest, this conversation is making me smile. I wish you could come here and see what I am talking about. See how there is a big, big difference in being an adult with a wintercoat, sittng outside in the cold and being a sleeping baby, protected by your clothes, a woolen bag and a big, warm pram.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
Think about it this way: Don`t you ever go outside on cold winterdays?


Haha, I've been living in south Florida for the past 11 years....the coldest it gets is about the 40s, and no.....I don't enjoy going outside in that weather









I was raised in Pennsylvania, with cold winters....but I was *always* cold. I've never been a fan of cold weather!

I'm not criticizing the Scandinavian practice at all--simply curious! The babies sound very cozy and happy in their snugglies and their prams


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

No, I would not. Not even with a baby monitor in a smaller hotel- I remember reading in a blog about someone doing this, and it surprised me. Too many flights up (usually), too many people with access to keys, too unfamiliar for the child.
I'm not perfect, but I just wouldn't.
Although, thinking...I don't travel much. I could see how, maaayyybe if the kid were out and you thought you were close, how it could maybe be tempting if you could see the room or something. But I still think that's wrong- I hope I wouldn't do it (certainly wouldn't now). Still seems unfair to a child should they wake up alone. It's still not your house- too many other people, noises, distractions.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I have one thing to say about Scandanavian babies and prams. I lived in Russia, near Scandanavia (in Karelia) for two years. They also occasionally leave babies outside to sleep in prams. The reason is otherwise the baby will get HOT in all those clothes, and they don't think it's good for the baby to keep waking him or her to dress/undress. Times have changed in Russia and unfortunately the practice was getting more dangerous because of the social disruption following the end of communism, but climate-wise, it was the same deal.

I always worried about DD in the cold winter we had: we'd be out in the cold, she'd be all bundled in the carrier, then I'd go inside and I couldn't take her out of the wrap and undress her in every single store. Besides waking her and making her VERY cranky, that is. But I think she did get very hot in some stores. I tried not to stay very long. I appreciate the fact that I should do everything for my baby but... Occasionally shopping does not seem to me like such a horrible thing to do, parenting-wise.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

What about the other risks that we all take every day? When does taking precautions get to the point where we are being overprotective? At what point does being lax lull us into a false sense of security and cause us to make unwise decisions? We will be going to a Club Med this summer and have signed up our DD (who will be 3) for the "Mini-Club", which I am hoping she will love. Will she be safe there? The child-adult ratio will be within the legal requirements but what if the adults are preoccopied with other children for a couple of minutes and a stranger takes my DD, or she runs into the pool?? Another example, the grocery store. DD likes to sit in the cart for a while but then she wants to get out and walk. Periodically, I have to look at the shelves to pick the food that I want to buy so of course, my eyes are not always on DD. Should I keep her in "shopping cart prison" the whole time? Or is it better to teach her to stick by me, at the risk of losing her a couple of times in the store or even something worse?

Regarding people who have keys to the hotel room, note that the McCann's case was a real break-in through the window. It was not the case of an employee with a key to the room. But of course there is also that risk. I am thinking that the real risk factor in the McCann case, however, was that the room was on the main floor and anyone could get access through the window. I keep thinking about those poor parents and that poor little girl. I sure hope they find her.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
What about the other risks that we all take every day? When does taking precautions get to the point where we are being overprotective? At what point does being lax lull us into a false sense of security and cause us to make unwise decisions?

Good points. I guess each parent has to assess *their perceived* potential risk of each situation and determine their course of action based on that. For me, I can't imagine a situation in which leaving my child unattended in a hotel room would seem like a reasonable risk to take, and I certainly can't imagine referring to the refusal to do so as overprotective.

I, too, am very sad for the McCann family, and FWIW I'd never walk up to them and say, "Nice job letting your daughter get kidnapped," -- I wouldn't offer them anything but the most sincere compassion and kindness -- but since this is a discussion board, I guess I'm talking more conceptually and generally about the scenario rather than literally pointing a finger at that father and that mother.

[Thanks to the pps who explained about why babies are left outside stores in some countries -- for some reason I hadn't thought of the overheating factor! I looooved using my BundleMe when DS was tiny because he could be all snug when we were outside and then I could open it up to give him some ventilation when we were inside. But I'm in Southern California, so I do admit that my experience with extreme temperatures is rather limited!







]


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Good points. I guess each parent has to assess *their perceived* potential risk of each situation and determine their course of action based on that. For me, I can't imagine a situation in which leaving my child unattended in a hotel room would seem like a reasonable risk to take, and I certainly can't imagine referring to the refusal to do so as overprotective.

I, too, am very sad for the McCann family, and FWIW I'd never walk up to them and say, "Nice job letting your daughter get kidnapped," -- I wouldn't offer them anything but the most sincere compassion and kindness -- but since this is a discussion board, I guess I'm talking more conceptually and generally about the scenario rather than literally pointing a finger at that father and that mother.


Very, very well said. I find it criminal to leave 3 toddlers alone in a hotel room for half an hour. At least with my own toddler, that would simply be _asking_ for something horrific to happen. And I can't help but wonder if it's because the parents are two rich white doctors that they aren't being called out by the media for what they did.
This story has just been haunting me and I feel such deep sorrow for Madeleine. I hope they find her.


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## wwisdomskr (Dec 25, 2006)

Nope...haven't done it and wouldn't do it. No matter how inconvenient it may be. When truly necessary, we pick our sleeping tots up and pop them into a sling...and hope they go back to sleep. Otherwise, we just wait with them until they wake up. Great opportunity to take a nice bath in the tub, watch a grown-up movie, read, splurge on room service, etc...

I wouldn't feel comfortable hiring a stranger to watch my kids, either. Maybe I just haven't been in enough of a pinch... I don't know.

We've talked about paying to bring along a trusted babysitter from home and will probably try that out someday. Or just cajole the grandparents into coming...


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RockStarMom* 
And I can't help but wonder if it's because the parents are two rich white doctors that they aren't being called out by the media for what they did.

No, it is because people in the UK are aware of the circumstances of how it happened (that the parents did so under a false sense of security - MANY parents were doing the same in the resort) and know that the price these parents are paying is already high enough. Also we all feel like something so horrible can happen to anyone, even to those of us who would never leave their children alone

As I said earlier, I always found it amazing at how little compassion Americans seem to demonstrate to stories they hear in the news: it is like anger is the automatic reaction. I remember that in the 5 years I lived there, whenever there were news of a child dying, they ALWAYS had a comment like: "police is considering to press charges against the parents" There were no tragedies, no freak accidents - somebody HAS to pay







:

And yes, you can throw your tomatoes







: I am just fed up of reading horrible things about Madeleine's family in American websites (generally) while for the most part, only finding compassion and support in European ones


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## thebee321 (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Regarding people who have keys to the hotel room, note that the McCann's case was a real break-in through the window. It was not the case of an employee with a key to the room. But of course there is also that risk. I am thinking that the real risk factor in the McCann case, however, was that the room was on the main floor and anyone could get access through the window.


That may be my post you are referring to, and I was referring to someone who shared a story about people doing the same thing, but from 9pm to 3am, not checking on the child, in Las Vegas. I'm seriously doubting there is a high level of background checks on every hotel employee in Las Vegas. I would personally never sleep in a room in any hotel without the extra, can only be opened from the inside latches/locks, so I would never leave a child there without those in place.

It sounds like the resort in Portugal is really nice and probably had good background checks on employees.

But Vegas is a little too wild of a place for me to be trusting anyone.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Nope - I would never leave my kids alone in a hotel room. We travel a lot and stay in many hotels and it has never crossed my mind to leave them even for a second.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
No, it is because people in the UK are aware of the circumstances of how it happened (that the parents did so under a false sense of security - MANY parents were doing the same in the resort) and know that the price these parents are paying is already high enough. Also we all feel like something so horrible can happen to anyone, even to those of us who would never leave their children alone

As I said earlier, I always found it amazing at how little compassion Americans seem to demonstrate to stories they hear in the news: it is like anger is the automatic reaction. I remember that in the 5 years I lived there, whenever there were news of a child dying, they ALWAYS had a comment like: "police is considering to press charges against the parents" There were no tragedies, no freak accidents - somebody HAS to pay







:

And yes, you can throw your tomatoes







: I am just fed up of reading horrible things about Madeleine's family in American websites (generally) while for the most part, only finding compassion and support in European ones

You're absolutely right!


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

I agree. I'm paranoid about leaving my kids out of my sight. I lived in the Dallas area when a little girl was snatched off her bicycle and killed, and it terrified me.
People leave their children in hot cars every summer and they die from heat exhaustion. But in some places it's commonplace to leave minors unattended. Here in Hawaii I can't believe how many really little children are taking care of their younger siblings after school with no adult supervision. It's common for a 10 year old to be the oldest one in charge! I can't imagine leaving my 10 year old 'in charge.'

It makes you wonder how people can be so unaware.....but I think this girl's poor parents have probably been punished enough by the media attention and the anguish they are going through. I can't imagine how awful they must feel, or how terrifying it would be to not know where your child was, or if they were even alive.

Even when a parent does something this dumb I can't say they deserve to lose one of their kids. We've all done things at one time or another that in retrospect could have had tragic results given the right combination of circumstances. No matter what we think of these parents, all the charges and recrimination in the world aren't going to help. People who take children are pretty crafty, remember Polly Klaas? At this stage of the game, how she came to be missing isn't even the issue. Finding her is.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
I remember that in the 5 years I lived there, whenever there were news of a child dying, they ALWAYS had a comment like: "police is considering to press charges against the parents" There were no tragedies, no freak accidents - somebody HAS to pay







:

I've noticed the "somebody has to pay" attitude myself. I wonder how Europeans have managed to rise above it?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I've noticed the "somebody has to pay" attitude myself. I wonder how Europeans have managed to rise above it?

Or why Americans feel the need to sink down to it?


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
As I said earlier, I always found it amazing at how little compassion Americans seem to demonstrate to stories they hear in the news: it is like anger is the automatic reaction. I remember that in the 5 years I lived there, whenever there were news of a child dying, they ALWAYS had a comment like: "police is considering to press charges against the parents" There were no tragedies, no freak accidents - somebody HAS to pay








:

I've noticed this too.

Have you heard the expression, "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me"? Stories in the American media have changed this saying to "fool me once shame on me". It is almost as if the media (and a lot of the public) blames victims for being insufficiently cynical. That's why I don't pay attention to the mainstream media here.


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## CrunchyCate (Jul 9, 2005)

I would never leave my kids alone in a hotel room (not even my 9 year old!) for more than a minute (within sight of the door). If I'd need to be gone more than that, I'd take the kids. I'm just now to the point that I will leave my 9 year old in the car with her younger siblings if I am running in some place where it will be quick, and I can see the car from where I am. I leave her a cell phone, so she can call mine or 911 in case of an emergency (that's mostly for her feeling of security, because I stay in sight).

As a parent, I have blamed myself for stupid decisions that have caused my children harm. For example, I let my older kids go outside while my ex was mowing the lawn, because they were whining about it (I always made them stay outside, and my ex and the kids always gave me grief.) The *ONE* time I allowed it, there was an accident, and my DD was blinded in one eye by a rock. It was a total fluke accident- the rock came from from a strange angle- but to the day I die, I will blame myself for letting those kids go outside when I, as a parent, knew there were risks. Plenty of parents allow their kids outside with no harm, but it happened to me.

I can't blame these parents for something bad happening, I am sure they blame themselves enough, but I do think that is negligent, and I would think so even if nothing bad happened.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

CrunchyCate,


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Or why Americans feel the need to sink down to it?

Good point.

But I just wondered if someone could give us some insight into the European way of looking at horrible misfortunes.

Since so many Americans have this "automatic pilot" response of blaming someone, anyone, for every. single. thing. that goes wrong -- I don't know if we're so much "sinking" as just "staying' in that mentality.

Is it that Europeans are more comfortable with releasing control over their lives? Meaning, I think many of us who blame the victim, do so because it helps us maintain a sense of control over what happens to us. Just so long as we're never that "irresponsible" or "naive" or whatever -- that horrible thing will never happen to us or our loved ones.

How do Europeans "deal?"


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Good point.

But I just wondered if someone could give us some insight into the European way of looking at horrible misfortunes.

Since so many Americans have this "automatic pilot" response of blaming someone, anyone, for every. single. thing. that goes wrong -- I don't know if we're so much "sinking" as just "staying' in that mentality.

Is it that Europeans are more comfortable with releasing control over their lives? Meaning, I think many of us who blame the victim, do so because it helps us maintain a sense of control over what happens to us. Just so long as we're never that "irresponsible" or "naive" or whatever -- that horrible thing will never happen to us or our loved ones.

How do Europeans "deal?"

Actually, I think it's because Europeans are less obsessed with parenting in general and in particular less obsessed with trying to make themselves look like perfect parents by putting down other parents. They are also more likely to make a realistic evaluation of danger and understand that though things like this do happen, they happen pretty damn rarely so it makes no sense to blame the parents for it when it does happen. They blame the perp instead. Radical, huh







:


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

There's a HUGE difference between running in to pay for gas, out to check the mail, or to the bathroom and leaving your children unsupervised in a hotel room in a foreign country while you go out to eat and for drinks. I would NOT leave my young toddlers in a hotel room or a house or anywhere without an adult to go out for dinner and/or to have drinks. I think anyone who would needs to take some parenting classes to learn what can (and look what DID) happen when children are left alone. I'm not saying we should blame the victim, but the fact is that if they had been supervising their children, this wouldn't have happened. The fact is anything can happen when you leave little ones alone to go out to eat. A temporary lapse of judgement is understandable, we all make mistakes. But come on, you don't leave your 4 year old home alone to go out to eat, and you certainly don't do it in a hotel room where there's a spare key down there, and the maids have keys, etc. That's not comparable to your child getting hit by a rock because you were mowing. Leaving your kid alone while you go eat dinner is foolish, and now I have one more reason not to do it. I hope these people get their daughter back safe and sound, but I really hope they think twice the next time they don't feel liek bringing their children to dinner.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
There's a HUGE difference between running in to pay for gas, out to check the mail, or to the bathroom and leaving your children unsupervised in a hotel room in a foreign country while you go out to eat and for drinks. I would NOT leave my young toddlers in a hotel room or a house or anywhere without an adult to go out for dinner and/or to have drinks.

I agree with not leaving a child in a hotel room while going to have dinner/drinks.

I think it is equally important to not leave children in the car while paying for gas.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I think anyone who would needs to take some parenting classes to learn what can (and look what DID) happen when children are left alone. I'm not saying we should blame the victim, but *the fact is that if they had been supervising their children, this wouldn't have happened.*

I said this earlier, but I will repeat. This could have happened even if they were at home and the kids asleep in their room. Think Elizabeth Smart. I don't agree with their decision, but a blanket statement about how it would have happened if the parents had been in suite. It can happen.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I hope these people get their daughter back safe and sound, but I really hope they think twice the next time they don't feel liek bringing their children to dinner.

Sheesh, I have a feeling they'll think twice next time.







:







:







:


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Like the McCanns did?

No.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Good point.

But I just wondered if someone could give us some insight into the European way of looking at horrible misfortunes.

Since so many Americans have this "automatic pilot" response of blaming someone, anyone, for every. single. thing. that goes wrong -- I don't know if we're so much "sinking" as just "staying' in that mentality.

Is it that Europeans are more comfortable with releasing control over their lives? Meaning, I think many of us who blame the victim, do so because it helps us maintain a sense of control over what happens to us. Just so long as we're never that "irresponsible" or "naive" or whatever -- that horrible thing will never happen to us or our loved ones.

How do Europeans "deal?"

I can't entirely answer your (very good) question but I think I can at least explain some of the European view. Some background: I'm an American by birth and have lived in South America and the Middle East before settling in Continental Europe. I'm married to a European man and have lived here for the past 7.5 years.

I think a huge difference is the view of individual responsibility. For better and for worse, (most -- granted, we're still talking a huge numbers of countries and cultures here) Europeans have a more collectivist outlook. For them, the individual isn't always paramount. Rather, the society as a whole is. Therefore, many (most) Europeans don't mind paying what, by American standards, are very high taxes. Not only do they get a lot in return and know it (!) but I can't count the number of times I've heard business people and wealthy people say, "I'm happy to pay more so that everyone has a basic standard of living." In the US, I think we're much more likely to say, "It's up to the people themselves to achieve that basic standard of living and I'm not paying a red cent more than necessary to help them."

I'm *not* trying to start an argument here about social welfare systems! Really! There are pros and cons in my opinion to both systems. I'm just trying to illustrate some basic differences in outlook.

I think this "collectivist" mentality also explains a bit about the response to the McCann tragedy. In the US, our view is that the individual is ultimately responsible for his/her actions. In Europe, there is a view that society as a whole is responsible. Hence, the greater speed at which Americans condemn an individual for not being responsible enough (in their perception).

As someone else said, Europeans, as a whole, aren't as concerned with child-rearing per se. Yes, they love their kids, take good care of them, have playgroups,,etc., etc.! However, because the state takes care of so much, there isn't this extreme angst about kids achieving and every single little thing that parents should or should not be doing. And, let's face it, the McCann tragedy aside, it *is* much safer here to raise kids so there doesn't need to be that concern for physical safety.

I hope this explains at least part of the difference.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Actually, I think it's because Europeans are less obsessed with parenting in general and in particular less obsessed with trying to make themselves look like perfect parents by putting down other parents. They are also more likely to make a realistic evaluation of danger and understand that though things like this do happen, they happen pretty damn rarely so it makes no sense to blame the parents for it when it does happen. They blame the perp instead. Radical, huh







:

You are "radically" mistaken

The British may not be blaming the parents, but DH who just returned from a trip to Spain and Portugal (where this occurred) reports that the media there AND the "person on the street" is *100 percent* blaming the parents for being so selfish as to leave their kids alone so that they could have dinner!

So saying that "Europeans" are not blaiming the parents and don't feel this bevhior was neglectful is simply not correct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18726957/


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Never. Especially not in another country. Simple because I don't know the culture. The parents seemed to be trying to do the right thing, by checking on them every half hour, but really... if they were that concerned, shouldn't they have just stayed in?

I think the girl is found.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

No, I wouldn't leave my child. I almost left him one time to drive to the store that is 3 blocks from my house, but I realized at the last minute that something unexpected could happen. What if I got in a car wreck? What if the house caught on fire? (okay, I still would have been back in time...) but what if I was delayed getting back somehow?

I decided against it because I was really worried that if I did it once, I would do it again.

But I really hope that no one is judging these parents because of this. I have made so many bad decisions that could have resulted in disaster...

I really hope they find their little girl, and I hope that the people who took her just wanted a child of their own and are being decent to her. She is the same age as my son and I don;t know what I would do if I were in their situation.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Jumping in late...

No, I would not leave my son in a hotel room for any amount of time for any reason...perhaps to walk 5 feet or less to the ice machine or something...but that would be it.

I live in an apartment. I have to go down stairs to do laundry. I'm downstairs for MAYBE 3 minutes tossing laundry around. Our door locks automatically.

I make James (2 y/o) come with me. It takes three times as long because I have to wait for him to mosey down the hall, mosey down the stairs and stuff. But I still bring him with me. Every single time. My house is kid safe, I live in an itty bitty town with almost no crime...and I still will not leave him for 3 minutes. It freaks me out too much.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

And, let's face it, the McCann tragedy aside, it *is* much safer here to raise kids so there doesn't need to be that concern for physical safety.
I don't agree with this at all, and statistics agree with me. Stranger crimes are simply not common here, no matter what our media tells us. Our murder rate is mostly attributed to inner city black on black crime (as sad as that is), sexual crimes against youths go widely unreported in Europe whereas here in the US they are more likely to be reported.

As for leaving your baby, hey, you might find it culturally okay to leave a baby outside a restaurant or cafe, but the fact remains that is indeed more risky, even if something happening is very rare. The fact is that the parent would not be there IF something happened. Same thing with leaving your child in a room by themselves. Look at the article someone posted on here about a couple from Europe leaving their 2 month old in their hotel room while they had lunch? The fact remains that if the child cries no one is there, if there is a fire, no one is there.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
You are "radically" mistaken

The British may not be blaming the parents, but DH who just returned from a trip to Spain and Portugal (where this occurred) reports that the media there AND the "person on the street" is *100 percent* blaming the parents for being so selfish as to leave their kids alone so that they could have dinner!

So saying that "Europeans" are not blaiming the parents and don't feel this bevhior was neglectful is simply not correct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18726957/


No not only the British: the Germans, the French, the Scandinavians... I have generally not read anything else but support.

Now, I have also been reading the Portuguese newspapers directly, and what is going on is that people in Portugal and Spain are angry that the several in the British media are blaming the Portuguese police for not doing enough and saying that it is to be expected in Mediterranean countries








So since then, there has been a backlash against the parents.

Did you know that they were even circulating stories that the McCanns were swingers and that they left the children alone because of that? Now, I am not judging anyone's lifestyle here, but that story was spread precisely to feed the fire of a very religious and already hurt people.

Also, the fact that there are MANY missing children in the Algarve who never received such an attention, is also making many people resent this story.

Having said all that, the people RIGHT there at the Algarve have been very loving and supportive and have several times come to the news media to say that, while they don't agree with it, leaving the children alone was a common practice in that resort, so that's why the McCanns did it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
No not only the British: the Germans, the French, the Scandinavians... I have generally not read anything else but support.


Yes, as the MSNBC article points out it is there is a cultural difference between Northern Europeans and Southern ones. Exactly my point, that it is mistake to group all of them together. And of course 'right there' no one wants to be too judgmental in a town dependent on travellers.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
You are "radically" mistaken

The British may not be blaming the parents, but DH who just returned from a trip to Spain and Portugal (where this occurred) reports that the media there AND the "person on the street" is *100 percent* blaming the parents for being so selfish as to leave their kids alone so that they could have dinner!

So saying that "Europeans" are not blaiming the parents and don't feel this bevhior was neglectful is simply not correct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18726957/

If the parents are 100% to blame, I guess that means the perp is innocent, right? Very logical indeed....


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
You are "radically" mistaken

The British may not be blaming the parents, but DH who just returned from a trip to Spain and Portugal (where this occurred) reports that the media there AND the "person on the street" is *100 percent* blaming the parents for being so selfish as to leave their kids alone so that they could have dinner!

So saying that "Europeans" are not blaiming the parents and don't feel this bevhior was neglectful is simply not correct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18726957/


Yep, and that makes a lot of sense. If the media is blaming the parents the "man in the street" is quite likely to blame the parents too. Most "men in the street" are strongly influenced by the media.

And most people here who have been talking about "European" attitudes are referring largely to Northern Europe, I believe.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Umm, about running in to pay for gas:

A few years ago, a 6yo boy died in our area because of something similar. The boy wanted a sandwich from a convenience store, and his mom left the car running, and ran in to get him his sandwich. It just so happened that a man newly released from prison noticed the opportunity to steal a car, and quickly got in the car.

Since the mom was watching the car, she saw and rushed out to save her child. She opened the back door and was undoing the seatbelt, when the thief just took off, with the door open and the little boy hanging out of the car; I think the seatbelt was holding his foot or something. Some people chased the car, but by the time they got the thief to pull over, the little boy was dead, literally dragged to death.

It was heartbreaking -- but I honestly don't recall any discussion of prosecuting the mother, or really too much public condemnation of the mother. I think too many parents recalled doing similar things themselves, and were just thankful they (and their children) didn't have to pay such a high price for making a dumb choice. And of course, people knew how much the mom was already suffering.

I think this couple's suffering must be a million times worse, because of knowing the kidnappers likely did it to make money in the child sex trade. Of course, they also at least have _some_ hope of getting her back alive. Did someone say she's been found?


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
I don't agree with this at all, and statistics agree with me. Stranger crimes are simply not common here, no matter what our media tells us. Our murder rate is mostly attributed to inner city black on black crime (as sad as that is), sexual crimes against youths go widely unreported in Europe whereas here in the US they are more likely to be reported.


Which statistics?

I'm looking at the following:

Assaults per capita by country: US #6 nearest European country at #8 which is the UK.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...lts-per-capita

Burglaries: US #1
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ime-burglaries

Gun Violence (homicide with firearm): US #7
Nearest European Country was Germany at #13
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...cides-firearms

Non-firearm homicide rate: US #16
Nearest European country was Bulgaria at #19 (and, to be honest, I was really talking about Western Europe but, since I said "Europe" I'm being fair here . . .
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...er-100-000-pop

Rapes: US #1
Nearest European country was the UK at #7
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

I pulled all these off one website. The source for the stats, though is: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

As anyone knows who deals with stats, it really depends *a lot* on definitions and systems of measurements. In the interests of fairness, according to this report, Spain beat out the US in number of robberies!

I'm also a bit confused about your comment that the murder rate is mostly among inner city black youth . . . umm . . sure . . . but does that mean it shouldn't count towards the overall US crime rate? Or does that mean that you, personally, don't feel unsafe because crime is restricted to the ghetto and, therefore, you (I'm guessing?) don't have to worry about it? In any case, I assure you, if you live in the inner city, whether you are a black youth or not, you feel unsafe and just because other people in American don't feel affected by it doesn't make it any less of a pressing problem or any less statistically relevant when compared with Europe! After all, much of the crime here in Europe is also from inner city youth of non-European origin. Doesn't mean that it's not counted in the statistics and doesn't mean that it doesn't effect those of us who live here!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Houdini, I disagree about paying for gas. If I can see my child, if the car is locked with the alarm on, if I could reach my car in two seconds, he's safe. He's not going to choke on his spit and die, and the fuel tank could explode just as easily with me driving as with me parked. That's called a freak accident. I highly doubt that with me ten seconds away, someone could break my window, take him out of his carseat, or get my door open and hotwire my car without my hearing the alarm and being out there. That's the difference between leaving your child in a hotel room and leaving your child in the car for less than 5 minutes. In one situation you can see the child, you could get to him quickly, you can tell if something is going on. In the other you can't. I'm not going to debate whether or not this situation is right or wrong, but that's my take on it. He's safer in the car than in a parking lot where someone could speed away without paying for their gas and hit us or in a store that could be robbed at any moment. If I were going in for ten minutes, going grocery shopping, or leaving him out there when its severely hot or cold, yeah, something could happen--but I don't do that.

They weren't at home with the kids asleep in their room. They locked their tots in a hotel room to go out for beers and dinner. A hotel room where employees can easily get copies of the keys. A hotel room where they can't hear their children from down the hall. A hotel room. You can lock your windows and doors, get a home security system, and do a number of things to protect your home. Nevertheless you don't leave your kids at home alone, and you don't leave them unsupervised in a hotel room. The hotel room, IMO, is a heck of a lot more dangerous than leaving your kids home alone, and those two scenarios are far more dangerous than letting your kids sleep in their own rooms. Shit can happen either way but you can take reasonable steps to try and prevent it. It's all about risk assessment, and I doubt before leaving they took into consideration that they can't see or hear their kids from a restaurant and that hotel employees could get into the room or the countless of things that those kids could do to themselves without parents supervising them.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Houdini, I disagree about paying for gas. If I can see my child, if the car is locked with the alarm on, if I could reach my car in two seconds, he's safe. He's not going to choke on his spit and die, and the fuel tank could explode just as easily with me driving as with me parked. That's called a freak accident. I highly doubt that with me ten seconds away, someone could break my window, take him out of his carseat, or get my door open and hotwire my car without my hearing the alarm and being out there.

Even with doors locked/alarms set....it doesn't take much to break a window and then re-lock doors. It doesn't take long for the gun to come out if the person so chooses to use one. Why would you risk it??

This is borrowed from above:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
A few years ago, a 6yo boy died in our area because of something similar. The boy wanted a sandwich from a convenience store, and his mom left the car running, and ran in to get him his sandwich. It just so happened that a man newly released from prison noticed the opportunity to steal a car, and quickly got in the car.

Since the mom was watching the car, she saw and rushed out to save her child. She opened the back door and was undoing the seatbelt, when the thief just took off, with the door open and the little boy hanging out of the car; I think the seatbelt was holding his foot or something. Some people chased the car, but by the time they got the thief to pull over, the little boy was dead, literally dragged to death.

Bet this mama would disagree that the risk in any less than leaving your child anywhere else unattended.

It is just as illegal to leave a child in a car unsupervised as it is to leave them in the house unsupervised.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
That's the difference between leaving your child in a hotel room and leaving your child in the car for less than 5 minutes.

I completely disagree...no different....unsupervised is unsupervised.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
In one situation you can see the child, you could get to him quickly, you can tell if something is going on. In the other you can't. I'm not going to debate whether or not this situation is right or wrong, but that's my take on it. He's safer in the car than in a parking lot where someone could speed away without paying for their gas and hit us or in a store that could be robbed at any moment. If I were going in for ten minutes, going grocery shopping, or leaving him out there when its severely hot or cold, yeah, something could happen--but I don't do that.

Seeing the child from inside a store doesn't really make any difference in the end....it just means you get to watch what is happening.....front row seats....guess that counts for something...right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
They weren't at home with the kids asleep in their room. They locked their tots in a hotel room to go out for beers and dinner. A hotel room where employees can easily get copies of the keys. A hotel room where they can't hear their children from down the hall. A hotel room. You can lock your windows and doors, get a home security system, and do a number of things to protect your home. Nevertheless you don't leave your kids at home alone, and you don't leave them unsupervised in a hotel room.

I agree a child shouldn't be left alone in a hotel room.

You were saying it wouldn't have happened had they been in the suite...that is untrue. It can happen with the parents right down the hall and it has...more than once.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
The hotel room, IMO, is a heck of a lot more dangerous than leaving your kids home alone, and those two scenarios are far more dangerous than letting your kids sleep in their own rooms. Shit can happen either way but you can take reasonable steps to try and prevent it. It's all about risk assessment, and *I doubt before leaving they took into consideration that they can't see or hear their kids from a restaurant and that hotel employees could get into the room or the countless of things that those kids could do to themselves without parents supervising them.*

Amazing....you know what they were thinking. Wow...you're good.

Seriously, read about the culture difference. I think it is a serious mistake to _assume_ you know anything about what they were thinking about before going to dinner.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It doesn't take long for the gun to come out if I'm at the pump or in the car either. It does take quite a bit to break a window, open the door, get in, hotwire the car, and drive off. I have a button that conveniently unlocks my doors even if someone on the inside has locked them. It does take time to break a window, oen the door, and unhock a child from a carseat, too. It could happen at a red light, too. It doesn't take long for the gun to come out in the convenience store or for someone to run me and my child over in the parking lot either. Why would I risk it? Because I think the risk of him coming inside with me is far greater, because I know someone could pull a gun either way. If I can see my child and get to him within seconds, he's safe. Big difference between that and a hotel room. If someone tries to steal my car while I'm paying for gas or while I'm in it I have about the same chances of dealing with it, but if someone tries to kidnap my child from a hotel room that I'm not in I've got a far less chance of being able to prevent it than if someone tried to kidnap him from within my sight. And no, it is NOT illegal to leave a child in a car unsupervised for a few moments, not in my state; I've checked the laws. I don't consider it unsupervised if I can see my car and my child and get to him within seconds. When I'm 20 feet away from my child in a car, that's no different than if he were upstairs with me downstairs in our own home IMO. The question is whether or not its dangerous and if its more dangerous than the alternative, and in the situation of the car, the answer is no. Maybe it doesn't make a difference to you, but it does make a difference to me because I wouldn't watch what is happening, I'd carry my ass out there and do something about it, just as I would if someone tried to carjack me at a red light. It could have happened with them in the suite but at least with them in the suite, they could have tried to do something about it and would have maybe had a description of the guy and so on. That's the difference. I don't care about the culture difference; it's still dangerous to leave your child alone completely unsupervised where you can't see or hear them while you go out for dinner and drinks. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I don't have to defend my choice, because I don't believe it puts my son in harms way in a manner that even begins to be comparable to leaving him in a freaking hotel room for an hour where god knows what could happen without me there. I know what could happen with my son in the locked car with the alarm on with me ten seconds away. Someone could have a gun but I'd be just as helpless if they pulled the gun on me at a red light with us both in the car of if they pulled it on us while we were in the store, wouldn't I? In any of those situations though I still have the chance to act, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I wouldn't in a hotel room. We should take reasonable steps to prevent things from happening, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less than 5 minutes with my eyes on my car. Have a good day.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Either they didn't think of that, or they did think of it and did it anyway. Either way it was stupid. What parent WOULD think of that and then chose to do that anyway? Either they weren't thinking, or they didn't care. How could any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your child in a hotel room where they could strangle themselves with a telephone cord or where an employee with a key could get in? They couldn't see or hear them, and they weren't a moment away to try to intervene should danger appear. Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

No way. Nor would I leave them with a babysitter hired by the hotel.

I feel bad for what this family is going through, but I think they used very poor judgment.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Either they didn't think of that, or they did think of it and did it anyway. Either way it was stupid. What parent WOULD think of that and then chose to do that anyway? Either they weren't thinking, or they didn't care. How could any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your child in a hotel room where they could strangle themselves with a telephone cord or where an employee with a key could get in? They couldn't see or hear them, and they weren't a moment away to try to intervene should danger appear. Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.

Actually, since the perp entered the room through the UNLOCKED patio doors, I'm inclined to think that leaving the patio door of a ground floor apartment unlocked was more of a problem. He probably watched the mother go back and forth to check on the kids, and saw she left the doors unlocked, timed her, and knew when to strike.

I read that this family and their friends at the resort left the doors unlocked through fear of fire. I can't help wondering how they thought a 3 yr old and 2 yr old twins would open patio doors and escape all by themselves in case of fire.


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## CrunchyCate (Jul 9, 2005)

Just a note- it's not illegal to leave a kid in the car for a couple of minutes in my state, either. I think it would be, if I left the keys in and the car running (which I never do), but that's illegal even without kids (due to car thiefs.)

I just want to say that crime statistics can be meaningless. I would never leave my kids alone like that, even if I lived in a place with zero murder, rape, or robbery in the last 50 years, because all it takes is one pervert or (criminally) crazy person to change that.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I would never even occur to me to go out to dinner while my child slept in a hotel room.

I have left my ds sleeping while waiting out front for my older son to get off of the bus though so maybe it is the samething


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree with you, Choli. If the door had been locked it might not have happened, but he could have broken the glass just the same. And still, anything could have happened. An employee with a key could have come in, or the kids could have got hurt by themselves. There's just so many things that could happen to children whose parents aren't looking. Someone with a gun could have kidnapped them anywhere, but that wasn't the only danger to leaving them unsupervised.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Moonfire, have you been outside the United States?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yeah, their choice was outside my frame-of-reference, too. If my 2yo happens to be asleep in the bed at dinnertime, we'll bring our plates upstairs to eat in our office/rec-room right next to the bedroom so she won't feel scared and alone when she wakes up --

That is, if she happens to come unlatched. Often she nurses the whole time; if I'm hungry enough I manage to eat my food in bed, while I'm lying there nursing her. If I get up in the night to blog or something, she's often more restless with me not being there, so I usually have to hurry back. It's hard to imagine assuming toddlers would stay safely asleep while parents were off in a restaurant, just stepping in to check every half-hour ... just way outside my frame-of-reference, my experience with my own little ones as an AP mama.

Although we don't leave our children alone in the car, ever -- I guess it's easier to understand doing it, because I know so many people who have: who even unload the groceries and put them away while Baby sleeps in her car-seat, 'cause they know she'll wake up the minute they move her.

That's where the sling comes in handy -- and even handier is having a husband who does all the grocery-shopping. I personally haven't had to deal with a napping baby, and a need to get groceries to the fridge at the same time, 'cause dh takes care of the groceries for me. If I had to do it by myself, I'd wear her in the sling and just do it: if her nap's shortened, that usually means she'll go down earlier at night -- so, though I don't go out of the way to wake a baby/toddler, neither do I see it as the end of the world if a nap gets disrupted.

In contrast, some people I know seem to think their babies' naptimes are sacrosanct. If they wake up early, they're "off" for the day, or something.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

No, but even if I had, I'd still know that anything could happen to 4 and 2 year old children when left in a hotel room unsupervised with the patio door unlocked and would still not do it.

mammal_mama, if I wake my son from a nap too early, chances are he will not go back to sleep, and he will be whiny and irritable all day, throwing frequent temper tantrums, being very disagreeable, and even harder to get to sleep when bedtime comes.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
And no, it is NOT illegal to leave a child in a car unsupervised for a few moments, not in my state

You are correct...my bad....it's not illegal....but they can charge you with neglect (depending on the age of your child -- I believe your child is under the age of three) if someone happens to call it in and they will investigate the call...just for your information.

If you are unsure of that just call the police department for your state, they can clarify it for you.

It could have happened with them in the suite but at least with them in the suite, they could have tried to do something about it and would have maybe had a description of the guy and so on. That's the difference.[/QUOTE]

Unless they were sleeping....you know Elizabeth Smart.....Polly Klauss (sp?)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I don't care about the culture difference

Which may explain why you can't understand the other side of the equation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mooonfirefaery*
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I don't have to defend my choice, because *I don't believe it puts my son in harms way*........

Bold mine.

I am just putting my opinion out there along with your opinion. I am guessing that the family had the exact same frame of mind. I am also guessing they are second guessing that frame of mind every second of every day their little girl is missing.

Your opinion that your son isn't in harms way doesn't translate into he is safe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
In any of those situations though I still have the chance to act, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I wouldn't in a hotel room. We should take reasonable steps to prevent things from happening, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less than 5 minutes with my eyes on my car. Have a good day.

I am not failing to acknowledge anything you have said. I hear you. I disagree with you.

You don't feel it is unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less then 5 minutes with your eyes on your car....so be it. It doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I think it is irresponsible and neglectful to leave your child unsupervised in a car (locked or otherwise) at that age for any amount of time. I would absolutely call the police dept if I ever see it happen. I actually did when a parent left two young ones in their van while they ran into the store to get their pictures -- the photo studio is right at the door.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

While it might seem like poor judgement on the parents part.. I just figured out that 50 yards = 150 feet (how far they were from the room)! My yard goes back like 300+ feet.. sooo does that mean, that I shouldn't go outside in my backyard if my daughter is sleeping in the front of the house?? Just makes ya wonder.. but I can't put the blame on them.. 150 feet isn't that far, and how could anyone imagine that someone would slip inside and take the girl!?

That said.. going back to the orignal thread question.. no, I wouldn't leave my daughter in a hotel room.. but if she was 3, and I hadn't heard this story.. and I was going to be within view of the room at all times.. I dunno!? Perhaps I would have. As far as the babysitters in the hotel, I barely let anyone I know personally watch her, so probably not.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
No, but even if I had, I'd still know that anything could happen to 4 and 2 year old children when left in a hotel room unsupervised with the patio door unlocked and would still not do it.


I'm just sayin', go see the world a little and _then_ tell me what "responsible" parents do or don't do.









I've seen a million kids left in cars with the engines on while the parents are running errands at banks, shops etc. Why? Because this is the far north, where temps regularly drop into the negative numbers. Nobody wants to drag a sleeping toddler out of his seat and into the blistering -40 cold. Talk about cruel and unusual child treatment!

It's fairly common here. MDC freaks out about it constantly, though.









So, yeah. Everything in its own cultural context.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Either they didn't think of that, or they did think of it and did it anyway. Either way it was stupid. What parent WOULD think of that and then chose to do that anyway? Either they weren't thinking, or they didn't care. How could any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your child in a hotel room where they could strangle themselves with a telephone cord or where an employee with a key could get in? They couldn't see or hear them, and they weren't a moment away to try to intervene should danger appear. Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.

Why would any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave thier child in a car unsupervised?

See how that works. It's a frame of mind....it's what the person assesses the risk factors to be. Period. Each person will assess a situation differently and act according to their view of the situation.

It is no different for this family than for one who leaves their child unsupervised in a vehicle.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SMR* 
While it might seem like poor judgement on the parents part.. I just figured out that 50 yards = 150 feet (how far they were from the room)! My yard goes back like 300+ feet.. sooo does that mean, that I shouldn't go outside in my backyard if my daughter is sleeping in the front of the house?? Just makes ya wonder.. but I can't put the blame on them.. 150 feet isn't that far, and how could anyone imagine that someone would slip inside and take the girl!?









:


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## mamameeyah (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SMR* 
While it might seem like poor judgement on the parents part.. I just figured out that 50 yards = 150 feet (how far they were from the room)! My yard goes back like 300+ feet.. sooo does that mean, that I shouldn't go outside in my backyard if my daughter is sleeping in the front of the house?? Just makes ya wonder.. but I can't put the blame on them.. 150 feet isn't that far, and how could anyone imagine that someone would slip inside and take the girl!?

It's not the same as being in the backyard because I assume there aren't dozens of staffmembers former and current who have the master key to your house and access to your grounds. But with all I've read, it seems that if she was abducted, the person watched the family and patiently waited for the chance to take her. Child abductors tend to be very patient and wait for any lapse in parental attention to make their move. I still think it's possible that she woke up confused and went out to find her parents, maybe falling in a well or going down to the seaside and getting swept away. Remember baby Jessica back in the 80's who fell down a hole and got stuck but was rescued in the nick of time? If baby Jessica hadn't been found it would have seemed like she was abducted too. But I'm still hoping for a happy ending.


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## CrunchyCate (Jul 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
You are correct...my bad....it's not illegal....but they can charge you with neglect (depending on the age of your child -- I believe your child is under the age of three) if someone happens to call it in and they will investigate the call...just for your information.

If you are unsure of that just call the police department for your state, they can clarify it for you.

You don't feel it is unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less then 5 minutes with your eyes on your car....so be it. It doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I think it is irresponsible and neglectful to leave your child unsupervised in a car (locked or otherwise) at that age for any amount of time. I would absolutely call the police dept if I ever see it happen. I actually did when a parent left two young ones in their van while they ran into the store to get their pictures -- the photo studio is right at the door.

If you called the cops, because I left my kids locked in a car without extreme risks (unlocked, keys in ignition, heat), while I was feet away (in sight), I'd be mad, and the cops wouldn't do anything to me. I think that's a little bit extreme- and it's taken me 12 years of parenting to leave my 9 year old in the car with her siblings with a phone (my 12 year old is autistic, so he gets a different set of rules.) It would most certainly not be investigated as neglect.

I do have to say that I lived in Europe for six years, and was raised with a European (German) mother. Neither she nor I would have left our kids alone in a hotel like that...whether in Europe or the USA.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyCate* 
If you called the cops, because I left my kids locked in a car without extreme risks (unlocked, keys in ignition, heat), while I was feet away (in sight), I'd be mad, and the cops wouldn't do anything to me. I think that's a little bit extreme- and it's taken me 12 years of parenting to leave my 9 year old in the car with her siblings with a phone (my 12 year old is autistic, so he gets a different set of rules.) It would most certainly not be investigated as neglect.

I wasn't directing this to you.....your child isn't under the age of 2. I would wage a guess that if you wouldn't leave your child in the car alone before nine, then you wouldn't have at less than 2.

According to the police depts. I contacted they would very much have the authority to investigate if a toddler was left unsupervised in a car.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

No, never. You wouldn't leave your child home alone, and really, that's probably actually safer than leaving him/her in a hotel room. Hotels are full of traveling strangers you know nothing about, who could grab a child and drive right off, and nobody would think anything of it when seeing a person walking with a child in a hotel. You also have hotel housekeeping, maintenance men, etc... it's an incredibly selfish, stupid thing to do.


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## CrunchyCate (Jul 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 

According to the police depts. I contacted they would very much have the authority to investigate if a toddler was left unsupervised in a car.

I think it probably depends on the length of time you were gone from the car and your proximity to it. If I leave my one year old strapped in the locked car without keys and run into the house to grab my purse I left right inside the door, I don't think they'd investigate, or if they did, it would be a short one. If I left my three year old in the car while I went to a nightclub (as a woman in Seattle just did), then yeah, that would be an investigation.

I am in software, and when we do risk management (as I am sure they do it in any other project), they commonly show a grid that shows 1- the likelihood of the risk happening, and 2- the severity of the consquences if that happened. Even if something has a pretty low likelihood of happening, if the risk is severe, it is "red." Once you figure that out, you decide whether you can mitigate that risk and how you do it. I guess I have always done a version of that informally. For instance, it is dangerous to drive down the freeway with the kids, but I mitigate that by driving as safely as I can and buying a vehicle with good safety ratings and features and buying high rated carseats. I am sure this family thought they were doing risk mitigation, by checking every half an hour, but they did a poor job of it.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.


I find the accusation (and you're not the only one) that these parents didnt care absolutely, mind-blowingly astonishing.

The other word that is incredible to me is 'selfish'.

Plus other phrases like 'cant be bothered to take your children with you.'

Sheesh, the lack of compassion here astounds me, over and over.

Sure, imo they made a bad judgement. But a bad judgement does not equate to selfishness or a lack of caring about your child!

None of us know what happened to that family that evening. Had the children eaten earlier and fallen asleep? Was their nap schedule way off, meaning that there was no way they would manage a dinner out? It's a huge leap to take 'parents eating alone' to 'don't care about their children and can't be bothered with them'. Is it a crime to want a dinner out with your partner and no kids? (no I'm not saying I think it's wise to do so and leave the kids, but doing something unwise does not automatically equate selfishness or lack of caring. That is just such an ugly jump to make.)

What amazes me about this thread is that anyone would feel a need to publicly speak out and say, in a world forum, that they would never have made the decision this family made. I'm sure that millions of people around the world, when they read this story, thought "Yikes, bad judgement on the parents' part." But is there really a need to say it? When the child is out there, missing, and the parents are beside themselves with grief and worry? Why do any of you need to say it? Why did anyone need to ask that question in the first place?

I guess at least it wasn't a poll. Like, "Yes, I'd have left my child unattended in a hotel room" or "No, I'd never do that!" And I guess it could have had other options, like "I don't care about my children" or "I'm just too lazy" or "I'm selfish" and even "I'm too AP to do anything like that - this is the action of a clearly unattached, mainstream parent. Bet they did CIO too!"

Sheesh, I'm feeling sarcastic today, but honestly, this thread is getting to me.

I know, for sure, that at any time, something like this could happen to me. I lost my 4 yo for 15 minutes today. It totally freaked me out, and when she was found (hiding, as a 'trick'), I lost it and cried, which is totally out of character for me. I guess that if she'd really gone missing, all these people on the internet would be debating "Would you turn your back to take care of you 2 y/o and lose sight of your 4 y/o, or are you too totally perfect to ever make a mistake." (For those of you about to jump and tell me that yes, it is indeed negligent to lose your child for 15 minutes, she was in her preschool yard, and I did not leave the yard, I just got busy dealing with her brother. But heck, someone could have got her through the gate. She was hidden right by the gate, in some bushes, and it was only a parent searching outside in the parking lot who spotted her hiding there.)

Enough said. I'm just truly stunned by some of the posts here. Truly stunned.







:







:







:


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
According to the police depts. I contacted they would very much have the authority to investigate if a toddler was left unsupervised in a car.


Yes, they have the authority, but in my experience, the one time I saw them called, they investigated, and treated it like one big waste of their time. In fact, the police officer told us he did the same thing when his toddler napped and that there was absolutely no problem. He couldn't have been nicer.

But that's a theme for another whole MDC thread that appears periodically - the Would You Ever Leave Your Child in a Car Thread, which usually turns ugly.







:


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm sure this has been stated in the previous 10 pages, but why would you leave a 4 year old for even 30 minutes at night and be so far away?! What if the child awoke and, in fear, searched out her parents and just wandered out by herself?! Obviously this isn't what happened in this case, but it just seems crazy to me.


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
Is it a crime to want a dinner out with your partner and no kids?

Nope, but when you leave 3 kids under the age of 4 ALONE, it becomes a crime. It doesnt matter what time of day is is, or whether or not they are sleeping or awake, wether you check on them every 30 minutes or every 15, if you leave them alone, it is indeed a crime. I am so sorry for that family and that precious little girl. I pray she turns up unharmed. But her parents made a serious mistake. Putting your children in danger by neglect is a crime. Its a crime that could cost you your children, in more ways than one.


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## mamameeyah (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
Yes, they have the authority, but in my experience, the one time I saw them called, they investigated, and treated it like one big waste of their time. In fact, the police officer told us he did the same thing when his toddler napped and that there was absolutely no problem. He couldn't have been nicer.

Must not have been in California. California Vehicle Code 15620: "A child 6 years old or less may not be left alone in a vehicle if the health or safety of the child is at risk, the engine is running, or the keys are in the ignition. The child must be supervised by someone at least age 12. The cost of a ticket could be more than $300."

So the driver might not have to go to court, but would definitely get a ticket.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
mammal_mama, if I wake my son from a nap too early, chances are he will not go back to sleep, and he will be whiny and irritable all day, throwing frequent temper tantrums, being very disagreeable, and even harder to get to sleep when bedtime comes.

I didn't mean to cast doubt on parents who have this experience.









I guess what I was trying to communicate -- was how different everyone's frame of reference is. As a co-sleeping mama, I find my little ones frequently search for me in their sleep, and wake (or semi-wake) if they don't find me. So it's outside my frame-of-reference, and almost unbelievable, that many parents count on their children sleeping *solidly*, *alone*, for a set number of hours every night.

I don't doubt that there _are_ these sound sleepers, it's just so different from my experience of my children (and myself). One of my friends closes the bedroom door when her baby naps, and is often busy downstairs (where she can't hear her baby if she cries).

She counts on her baby sleeping for a certain number of hours, and I guess usually she goes back up when it's time for her to wake up. But occasionally she's felt really bad because the whole family got busy in other parts of the house, then someone vaguely became aware of Baby crying and went to get her, and it was clear she was very stressed and had been crying for a while, alone, before anyone noticed.

I realize there's a lot less risk of kidnapping in your own home. But it's just unacceptable, to me, to take the risk that my child might wake up and need me, call for me, and not be able to find me. To me, it's unacceptable. To some of my friends, it's upsetting if it happens, but it's just "one of those things" that just "happens" sometimes.

I don't believe my more mainstream friends love their children any less than I love mine. So I don't believe this couple loves theirs any less, either. Or is any more selfish than me. Based on their knowledge and experience of their children, they made a decision they thought was sound at the time. It's not a decision I would have made -- just as I don't leave my children in cars -- but I don't doubt their love for their children.

I hope Maddy's home soon.


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## mamameeyah (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
What amazes me about this thread is that anyone would feel a need to publicly speak out and say, in a world forum, that they would never have made the decision this family made. I'm sure that millions of people around the world, when they read this story, thought "Yikes, bad judgement on the parents' part." But is there really a need to say it? When the child is out there, missing, and the parents are beside themselves with grief and worry? Why do any of you need to say it? Why did anyone need to ask that question in the first place?

I don't think anyone would say any of this to the McCann's face, that would be mean and rude. But I think the reason people discuss this is that it terrifies all of us that it could happen to us. We find some way that we would have done things differently to make ourselves feel safer. That's how we comfort ourselves. It's also how the McCann's are probably torturing themselves. I feel so sorry for them.


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I find the accusation (and you're not the only one) that these parents didnt care absolutely, mind-blowingly astonishing.

The other word that is incredible to me is 'selfish'.

Plus other phrases like 'cant be bothered to take your children with you.'

Sheesh, the lack of compassion here astounds me, over and over.

Sure, imo they made a bad judgement. But a bad judgement does not equate to selfishness or a lack of caring about your child!

None of us know what happened to that family that evening. Had the children eaten earlier and fallen asleep? Was their nap schedule way off, meaning that there was no way they would manage a dinner out? It's a huge leap to take 'parents eating alone' to 'don't care about their children and can't be bothered with them'. Is it a crime to want a dinner out with your partner and no kids? (no I'm not saying I think it's wise to do so and leave the kids, but doing something unwise does not automatically equate selfishness or lack of caring. That is just such an ugly jump to make.)

What amazes me about this thread is that anyone would feel a need to publicly speak out and say, in a world forum, that they would never have made the decision this family made. I'm sure that millions of people around the world, when they read this story, thought "Yikes, bad judgement on the parents' part." But is there really a need to say it? When the child is out there, missing, and the parents are beside themselves with grief and worry? Why do any of you need to say it? Why did anyone need to ask that question in the first place?

I guess at least it wasn't a poll. Like, "Yes, I'd have left my child unattended in a hotel room" or "No, I'd never do that!" And I guess it could have had other options, like "I don't care about my children" or "I'm just too lazy" or "I'm selfish" and even "I'm too AP to do anything like that - this is the action of a clearly unattached, mainstream parent. Bet they did CIO too!"

Sheesh, I'm feeling sarcastic today, but honestly, this thread is getting to me.

I know, for sure, that at any time, something like this could happen to me.

Enough said. I'm just truly stunned by some of the posts here. Truly stunned.







:







:








:

Yeah, that. Every word. Enough already.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamameeyah* 
I don't think anyone would say any of this to the McCann's face, that would be mean and rude. But I think the reason people discuss this is that it terrifies all of us that it could happen to us. We find some way that we would have done things differently to make ourselves feel safer. That's how we comfort ourselves. It's also how the McCann's are probably torturing themselves. I feel so sorry for them.

I don't really feel sorry for them--I feel sorry for the little girl who is lost as a result of their judgment--this probably sounds harsh and I know that they are suffering for their poor choice, but so is a poor little 4 year old girl. I'm not judging the parents for their motives, their actions speak volumes alone.


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## FireFrog (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 

Also, to those who blame the McCanns, but then say you yourself have left the room to go get coffee and a muffin or even went for quick trip to the car, and you think that is okay, I would think twice before you judge. The authorities in this case suspect the kidnapper was are part of an international pedophile ring and that this was a "to order" kidnapping. He was a pro working with other pros. All he needed was a few minutes to jimmy the window, snatch Madeleine, and leave out the front door. The authorites believe the kidnapper was stalking and waiting for his moment. If you were at a hotel and decided to go get your breakfast down the hall and around the corner every morning, that would have been a great chance for a stalker to have made their move on your child. Even better, while you were out at the car, they could have pulled the fire alarm denying you easy access back into the building and giving them a perfect chance to run from the building with a screaming child without anyone thinking anything of it.

I think we as parents make decision everyday that risk our kids lives. Some out of necessity, some out of selfishness, some out of just down right fatigue, and some because that is just life and we are human. Analizing how we can do better and learn form other's mistakes is a great idea and very constructive. I just don't see what the point is in assigning blame to these parents and making value judgements on their parenting style. Just because some parents practice AP/NFL does not protect them or their children from harm. I think that is really naive to believe so, but maybe it brings some people comfort.

If you have read this far, thank you and sorry for the novel. *I don't expect anyone to change their mind.* Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine. Of course it could change based on any new information that comes to light. I just felt the need to put it out there.

Bolding mine.

Actually, riverscout, you did help me change my mind. You gave me some food for thought that helped me see the position these poor parents are in. Although I would have considered the scenario you presented, I think that is because I was living in the area when Polly Klause was kidnapped. Ever since then, I have been alert to this possibility. This made me shake my head in judgement when i first heard the story. Now, however, I can see where I was completely off base.

So, riverscout, thank you for the information.

I can only pray for that poor little girl.







:


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamameeyah* 
Must not have been in California. California Vehicle Code 15620: "A child 6 years old or less may not be left alone in a vehicle if the health or safety of the child is at risk, the engine is running, or the keys are in the ignition. The child must be supervised by someone at least age 12. The cost of a ticket could be more than $300."

So the driver might not have to go to court, but would definitely get a ticket.

Well, it _was_ in California, and I can assure you that there was no warning, no ticket, just understanding.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
I don't really feel sorry for them--I feel sorry for the little girl who is lost as a result of their judgment--this probably sounds harsh and I know that they are suffering for their poor choice, but so is a poor little 4 year old girl. I'm not judging the parents for their motives, their actions speak volumes alone.

I am at a loss to imagine how anyone on this planet could not feel sorry for those poor parents.

Wow, just wow.

I am heartened though by the fact that some posters seem to have more compassion.

Prayers for that little girl, and for her poor family. And for all other parents who have lost children, one way or another.


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## SugrMagMama (Dec 8, 2005)

THese past few months I have had to do a great deal of travelling. All with hotel stays.

No matter if I had to walk out to my car for "something really quick", I didn't do it without the children. If they were sleeping, I went without what I wanted to get. Just the thought of leaving them alone scared the hell out of me, even for 3 minutes tops.

My heart bleeds for the parents for the fear and horror that they must be experiencing, but not for nothing, what were they thinking to leave their child alone?


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I am at a loss to imagine how anyone on this planet could not feel sorry for those poor parents.

Wow, just wow.

I am heartened though by the fact that some posters seem to have more compassion.

Prayers for that little girl, and for her poor family. And for all other parents who have lost children, one way or another.









Why would one pity them, though? This is what 'feeling sorry for' means to me. It means to dismiss their mistake as not bearing on the event. But there it is before us.
Compassion means to suffer with, and yes I can recognize the suffering that they are experiencing. A picture of a suffering parent for their lost child makes any parent suffer with them.

I can forgive them, I can understand that they are suffering and want to relieve that. Children go missing everyday, and as a parent this is a very saddening fact. But these parents are very lucky that the world cares, I guess--just think of all the children that don't get this kind of attention.

I'll save my pity for all the forgotten children and their parents who don't have J. K. Rowling and a website. I'll reserve my pity for the child lost.


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## momma4fun (Jan 23, 2007)

If this couple wasn't white and if they weren't doctors I bet there'd be more people talking about their horrible judgement.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
I'll save my pity for all the forgotten children and their parents who don't have J. K. Rowling and a website. I'll reserve my pity for the child lost.

Maybe our difference is that I don't believe that pity or compassion have a finite quantity. I can feel profoundly sorry for each child and each parent, and each sibling, grandparent, aunt, uncle of a lost child, whether or not their parents have access to a website.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma4fun* 
If this couple wasn't white and if they weren't doctors I bet there'd be more people talking about their horrible judgement.

Oh, I think there are plenty of people doing that. Just read this thread, for starters.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I don't need to see the world to know what "responsible" parents do or don't do, to have my own opinion on responsibility, etc. That some parents are even less responsible doesn't mean this any more acceptable. What most of America thinks is responsible, I don't think is responsible. Isn't that true of most MDCers? 

The police could investigate if I left my baby in the car, but I doubt anything would be done because my child was in the car for five minutes. They'd most likely show up at the gas station long after I'd left, or if they got there fast, they'd see I was only inside for like 5 minutes. They'd probably be much more alarmed if I left him in the car outside of a grocery store which I'd never ever do. Someone called the cops on me once because I went outside for a few minutes while my roommate's child was sleeping in his crib. He was alone for 5 minutes, and the cop said "No problem, it's when he's left alone for much longer than that that we see a problem." (I was 18 at the time and had never had a kid of my own and was told by my roommates to leave him alone, that it was okay for me to go outside. I later realized they were pretty irresponsible parents, but I didn't know back then: I trusted them because they were the parents.) The point: he was alone completely for a few minutes, and the police officer didn't feel that was a big deal at all. Now, I wouldn't repeat that, even though nothing came of it, even though the cop didn't feel it was a big deal, because I wouldn't find it responsible.

I have compassion for these parents, but that doesn't mean I excuse people who leave their very young children completely 100% unsupervised for long periods of time of their actions or absolve them of any wrong-doing. It's not their fault the kidnapping happened, and I feel terribly sorry for them for what they are going through. But it still was irresponsible IMO to leave them alone.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 

I'll save my pity for all the forgotten children and their parents who don't have J. K. Rowling and a website. I'll reserve my pity for the child lost.

HOLY COW!!









*Britishmum* - I am with ya! The comments on this thread stun me beyond belief!


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt* 
HOLY COW!!









*Britishmum* - I am with ya! The comments on this thread stun me beyond belief!

yep . . . I said a similar thing to Britishmum a few pages back, as well. The thread just keeps going (and I guess I'm helping it go, for that matter) and the lack of compassion (no, it's not a finite emotion) and understanding is beyond belief.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I don't need to see the world to know what "responsible" parents do or don't do, to have my own opinion on responsibility, etc. That some parents are even less responsible doesn't mean this any more acceptable. What most of America thinks is responsible, I don't think is responsible. Isn't that true of most MDCers? 

I really isn't about seeing the world to see what "responsible" parents do. It's about understanding your ways aren't the only ways. It's about the differences in how people view their environment. It's about the differences each culture hold.

The biggest problem is your opinion is based on your experiences and your culture. You have to be willing to look into other cultures to understand where they are coming from. If you are unwilling to do that, then you won't understand.

I would wage a guess that I am not the only one who feels leaving a toddler unsupervised in a vehicle is just as irresponsible as leaving a toddler unsupervised anywhere else. Your actions can be justified until the sun goes down, but in the end, it doesn't make a difference (IMO).


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
I would wage a guess that I am not the only one who feels leaving a toddler unsupervised in a vehicle is just as irresponsible as leaving a toddler unsupervised anywhere else. Your actions can be justified until the sun goes down, but in the end, it doesn't make a difference (IMO).

no, you are not the only one.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

As I commented in the News and Current Events thread, my gut reaction to this horrible tragedy is to feel anger with the parents that their gamble resulted in an innocent child suffering in a way that I can't even begin to imagine.

I know that that reaction upsets some people, and I'm sorry for that. It's not that I don't feel compassion for the parents. I do. But, when I think about what they did it really just makes me so angry that they took the chances they did just so they could have dinner.

And even if NOTHING happened to those kids, I think it's a really risky thing they did. Just if they woke up and didn't have the parents there or available for 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes seems horrible to me.

I would never express anything but my deepest condolences to the family. But, I do think it's appropriate to discuss these sorts of things away from them. I would not want to add to their grief or guilt, but I do feel like people are entitled to their reactions.

Just as people are entitled to their reactions to the person who took Maddie. Surely some people out there feel compassion for this abductor and would call for nothing but forgiveness and understanding of the probably awful things that brought him to this place. I think its fine to feel whatever, but to criticize others for not feeling that same way? I don't get that. To say that people whose gut reaction to him are less than compassionate have sunk to a lower level or that they shouldn't feel that way or express it--I dunno....if that's where you are with it, cool. But not everyone else is, you know?

Anyway, I hope she's found and isn't suffering somewhere. Bless everyone involved.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 
Does it take more or less energy to judge someone, than it is to feel compassion for them?

How does it feel to judge parents, especially a Mother who looks so ill, distressed and heartbroken she looks on the verge of physical collapse?

What purpose does judging these parents serve? Is it actually producing anything positive to help these parents? Is it helping to ease their pain in anyway?

If Maddy is not found, her parents will have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives.... while all those judging and condemning Maddy's parents will return to their normal lives in days, weeks, months and years to come, as it becomes another forgotten news story, Maddy's parents will be waking everyday with the knowledge of what may have happened to their daughter.

I have no judgement for them, they have my deepest sympathy.

Peace









:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I would never express anything but my deepest condolences to the family. But, I do think it's appropriate to discuss these sorts of things away from them. I would not want to add to their grief or guilt, but I do feel like people are entitled to their reactions.

Just as people are entitled to their reactions to the person who took Maddie. Surely some people out there feel compassion for this abductor and would call for nothing but forgiveness and understanding of the probably awful things that brought him to this place. I think its fine to feel whatever, but to criticize others for not feeling that same way? I don't get that. To say that people whose gut reaction to him are less than compassionate have sunk to a lower level or that they shouldn't feel that way or express it--I dunno....if that's where you are with it, cool. But not everyone else is, you know?

You make a very good point. I have a hard time feeling compassion for people who abduct children, and for people who use them for financial gain in the child sex-trade (which I hope isn't what happened here but somehow fear it could be). Yet if I learned anything about the childhoods of the people who end up using children like this -- maybe I would feel some compassion. I know I was able to gain some compassion for terrorists after learning more about their backgrounds.

But I also agree with the pp's who argue that compassion isn't a finite quality. Also, regarding the poster who said she could feel compassion but not pity for the parents -- well, I actually think compassion is a deeper form of love than pity. So, if you're saying you feel *pity* for parents of lost children who don't have J.K. Rowling and a website, and for the lost children, but *compassion* for these wealthy parents -- well, you're actually preferring them over the poor parents with lost children?

Of course, maybe you're saying you feel deep compassion for ALL involved in cases like this, but reserve your pity for the poor, and for the lost children. So the latter two groups get BOTH pity and compassion, while Maddy's parents just get compassion?

Really, I think for the purposes of this thread, the words "pity," "feel sorry for," and "compassion" kind of have the same meaning. But if it helps some to make these sorts of distinctions, and "reserve" certain emotions for certain groups -- I agree with monkey's mom that everyone's entitled to their own reaction. We're expressing our opinions on a message board, not harassing Maddy's parents.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Electra375* 
OMG!!! They left a child and her 2, 2 yr old sibs in a room while they had dinner!!! That is horribly selfish. She's 3!!! Sleeping or not, no child that age should be left alone EVER!

I've stayed at many hotels with my children (From 1 to now 4) and I've not left my children to even unload the van, they came with me in a single file line back and forth as I unloaded our bags.


That "Single File Line" thing is creepier than leaving your kids in the room. What if one of them got hit in the parking lot? While you had your arms full of stuff and multiple children? I can't imagine. Sounds like fun!


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

There was a post about this on the board a long time ago...someone wanted to know whether or not it was okay to leave her child alone at a bed & breakfast place to go eat breakfast.

I think the general consensus of the thread was that we, in America, live in a culture of fear. We think things that are very rare should always be accounted for and ignore things that happen all the time. I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think your child is more likely to die from food poisoning from eating fast food than he is to be kidnapped. Yet people rush to say they'd never leave a child alone on that 1 in a million chance that their child might be taken, but don't hesitate over buying them McDonalds for lunch.

That's not to say I would leave my children alone, but the fear of kidnapping wouldn't even be a factor in my decision. It would be for other reasons already stated - my son doesn't sleep without me anyway, and if he did I wouldn't want him to wake up in a strange place and be scared. He might get into trouble, ect.

The point in, professionals who take children will take them at any shot. And no one is perfect enough to avoid every single split second where your children could be taken. The "huge risk" that these parents took was in 3 children under 3 getting themselves hurt or in trouble. The risk that someone would break in and take one of the children is so minute and yes it happened but how many people do this every day in other countries and never have their children taken?


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

But I also agree with the pp's who argue that compassion isn't a finite quality. Also, regarding the poster who said she could feel compassion but not pity for the parents -- well, I actually think compassion is a deeper form of love than pity. So, if you're saying you feel *pity* for parents of lost children who don't have J.K. Rowling and a website, and for the lost children, but *compassion* for these wealthy parents -- well, you're actually preferring them over the poor parents with lost children?


no, to clarify what I am saying; I can understand their suffering for having lost their child; I can 'suffer with' [this is the meaning of compassion] them in this respect.

But, I have trouble understanding how they could leave these small children alone. I cannot pretend to understand something that I do not understand. I just can't wrap my mind around this...

I have trouble with the word "pity," reading Nietzsche will do that to you. And I don't select or "prefer" one set of people having experienced evil over another set of people experiencing evil. But evil exists in the world; and all we can do is ask for His Mercy and try to be that Mercy in the world.

There is also something voyeuristic about this whole media circus that doesn't sit right with me... There are children and family members kidnapped in Iraq (just to name one case) every day. Why don't we see these children's faces in the media everyday? Or does the frequency and number make us loose interest?

I am not really drawing any conclusions; I am not saying that these people are light-skinned and rich and therefore they are more interesting to the media and the world. I am observing am remarking.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, the bed-and-breakfasts I stayed in in Britain were peoples' HOMES: going to breakfast means you walk from the bedroom to the dining room. Somewhat different from leaving one building to go to another.

Still, since I wouldn't know everyone staying there -- I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my child in one part of the house while I was in another. Just because it's a home, that doesn't mean it's identical to being in my OWN home, or the home of a friend or family member where I know everyone.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carmel23* 
But, I have trouble understanding how they could leave these small children alone. I cannot pretend to understand something that I do not understand. I just can't wrap my mind around this...

As I've shared before, it's waaay outside my frame-of-reference, too. But I just know these parents must be really torn apart right now.

Quote:

There is also something voyeuristic about this whole media circus that doesn't sit right with me... There are children and family members kidnapped in Iraq (just to name one case) every day. Why don't we see these children's faces in the media everyday? Or does the frequency and number make us loose interest?

I am not really drawing any conclusions; I am not saying that these people are light-skinned and rich and therefore they are more interesting to the media and the world. I am observing am remarking.
You may have a point there. I'm still glad this family's being helped: I just wish, like you, that there was equal treatment for poor families who experience this.

I also think there may be some point in what other posters have said -- about press/police making more negative assumptions about poor and/or darker-skinned people who've left their children for the same amount of time. There may be some racism involved in that.

That said, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of negative assumptions being made about these rich, white parents. I'm just still hoping to hear the little girl is found, and that she's all right.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It's not about culture differences. It's about what can happen to a child without parental supervision That a culture is comfortable with something or that something is the norm doesn't make it responsible. Vaxing is the norm here; it's what we do as a culture. Does that make it responsible?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
It's not about culture differences. It's about what can happen to a child without parental supervision That a culture is comfortable with something or that something is the norm doesn't make it responsible. Vaxing is the norm here; it's what we do as a culture. Does that make it responsible?

No, but at the same time, I disagree with the people who talk about parents who vax, or circumcise, as if they're horrible criminals intent on harming and mutilating their children. I say this even though I've had some condemn me for not vaxing.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
It's not about culture differences. It's about what can happen to a child without parental supervision That a culture is comfortable with something or that something is the norm doesn't make it responsible. Vaxing is the norm here; it's what we do as a culture. Does that make it responsible?

The culture part of it is understanding their neck of the woods, so to speak. I lived in an area where there were armed guards at each entrance of the compound when I was growing up. Were my parents wrong to place me in a situation where armed guards were a necessity? The answer will be different for each person.

The fact that you can't wrap your brain around doing things differently doesn't make it wrong. It makes you unaware of the culture. It doesn't make you right and them wrong. It makes each culture comfortable where they are.

As far as vaxing...eye of the beholder I would say. Does it make a person irresponsible to choose unassisted homebirth, homebirth, homeschooling, unschooling, public schooling, or any number of parental choices? No. It is the person who knows their culture or their environment and makes those choices based on that knowledge.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
The culture part of it is understanding their neck of the woods, so to speak. I lived in an area where there were armed guards at each entrance of the compound when I was growing up. Were my parents wrong to place me in a situation where armed guards were a necessity? The answer will be different for each person.

The fact that you can't wrap your brain around doing things differently doesn't make it wrong. It makes you unaware of the culture. It doesn't make you right and them wrong. It makes each culture comfortable where they are.

As far as vaxing...eye of the beholder I would say. Does it make a person irresponsible to choose unassisted homebirth, homebirth, homeschooling, unschooling, public schooling, or any number of parental choices? No. It is the person who knows their culture or their environment and makes those choices based on that knowledge.

Very well said! And just what I was trying to get at a few pages back on this thread when I brought up the question (which no one answered) as to whether it was neglectful to bring up a child in the US (gun violence, high crime, etc.).


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I think it's shades of risk.

Is it risky to have guns in a locked safe? In an unlocked safe? Laying around the house? Loaded, on the coffee table?

There's always risk in life. No doubt. But, I don't know that you can leave a loaded gun on the coffee table and when a child gets hurt with it, default to, "Well, life's full of risks. Driving is risky, too." If the parents where not willing to take reasonable measures to lock up the guns and protect the kids' safety, then it doesn't matter if the dog accidently knocked the gun off and it fired and hurt someone. Just b/c it's a freak thing, doesn't mean that the parents shouldn't do more to protect the kids.

Leaving kids in a hotel room, of that young age, and not being able to hear them or see them, and checking on them in 1/2 hour intervals seems like a lot more risk than one should reasonably take to have a nice dinner.

In most cases in the US, as I understand it, the child protective service laws are kind of in hindsight. So, if a child is left alone and suffers and injury, or picks up a loaded gun and hurts himself or someone else, there is a sort of "after the fact" decision made that b/c the child was harmed, there is a ruling of "neglect." It's not necessarily against the law to leave kids unsupervised with loaded guns, and it's probably a cultural norm in some places to do just that, but if a kid is hurt as a result it seems like there can be repurcussions and charges afterwards. I think that's fairly reasonable, myself. That people are making allegations of "neglect" against this family seems logical to me given the risks they took and the outcome.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

My heart totally goes out to Maddie's parents. I agree with the poster about "degree of risk"--obviously, to them, it seemed reasonable to go for dinner. And maybe their comfort level is higher than many other posters but they felt that they were close enough/the hotel was secure enough that this was okay.

I just grieve for them. No one should have to go what they are going through right now.

That said, I might have done something similar. We go to a B&B in Stowe, Vt every year, and I would have felt VERY comfortable leaving my little girl (also named Maddie) in a room with siblings while we were downstairs, eating.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Madskye...I was wondering if anyone would have the courage to say that they might see themselves doing something similar to the Mcanns.

I just cant believe how unsympathetic some people are being.







:
My DS just turned 4 on April 2nd and I just don't know how I could even keep breathing if something like this happened to him. I feel so bad for this poor family. I really hope they find Maddie.


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## mummyto3girls (May 13, 2007)

I will never let my kids alone in a hotel room, never.

In this case, i don't pity the parents I'm afraid for the child, becuase of their irresponsability they kidnapped their daughter.
And about culture, my husband is British as well and he will never let the kids alone in the hotel room







:


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mummyto3girls* 
I will never let my kids alone in a hotel room, never.

In this case, i don't pity the parents I'm afraid for the child, becuase of their irresponsability *they kidnapped their daughter.*
And about culture, my husband is British as well and he will never let the kids alone in the hotel room







:

And all this time, I thought it was some sicko.







: The words I have for you, I can't say here.


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## kymholly (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moonprysm* 
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko.







: The words I have for you, I can't say here.

My thoughts exactly.

Wow.

Attachment parenting and gentle discipline are concepts that begin & end with children, I guess. Too bad that they don't necessarily translate into compassion for adults.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
You are "radically" mistaken

The British may not be blaming the parents, but DH who just returned from a trip to Spain and Portugal (where this occurred) reports that the media there AND the "person on the street" is *100 percent* blaming the parents for being so selfish as to leave their kids alone so that they could have dinner!

So saying that "Europeans" are not blaiming the parents and don't feel this bevhior was neglectful is simply not correct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18726957/

Here in Norway the media is NOT blaming the parents. Not at all. And "the person on the street" isn`t either. Not in a big scale, anyway.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kymholly* 
My thoughts exactly.

Wow.

Attachment parenting and gentle discipline are concepts that begin & end with children, I guess. Too bad that they don't necessarily translate into compassion for adults.

Yeah... This thread makes me sad.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moonprysm* 
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko.







: The words I have for you, I can't say here.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *kymholly* 
My thoughts exactly.

Wow.

Attachment parenting and gentle discipline are concepts that begin & end with children, I guess. Too bad that they don't necessarily translate into compassion for adults.

But, you don't feel compassion for the "sicko."

Which I can understand, but what if someone was telling you the above b/c you don't feel "pity" for the abductor?

Because you think he did something terrible and reprehensible?

I think some of us feel like that about the parents' actions, too.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:

But, you don't feel compassion for the "sicko."

Which I can understand, but what if someone was telling you the above b/c you don't feel "pity" for the abductor?

Because you think he did something terrible and reprehensible?

I think some of us feel like that about the parents' actions, too.
I don't think the comparison can be made. They misjudged a situation, they made a mistake...they didn't maliciously plot to hurt their children. The 'sicko' did. I see no comparison.

The parents and the perpetrator are not partners in this crime.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
I don't think the comparison can be made. They misjudged a situation, they made a mistake...they didn't maliciously plot to hurt their children. The 'sicko' did. I see no comparison.

The parents and the perpetrator are not partners in this crime.

I'm not trying to compare the abductor and the parents' actions.

I'm more trying to compare peoples' reactions to them.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:

I'm not trying to compare the abductor and the parents' actions.

I'm more trying to compare peoples' reactions to them.
YOu seemed to be saying. "the sicko did something reprehensible" "The parents, too, did something reprehensible." (without further qualifying that just because its the same word doesn't mean its comparible or even close to the same thing) The two posts you quoted were reacting to a statement in which the poster seemed to claim that the parents basically kidnapped the kid through their actions. The post blamed the parents for what happened.

Which, as an aside, I don't get at all. Who is to say that if they were in the room, this would not have happened? Perhaps the kidnapper would have violently took the child even with them there.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I was reacting to a call for compassion toward the parents.

A call, which in and of itself, did not seem very compassionate to those it was directed at nor the abductor.

I'm sure there are people out there who would say the abductor deserves pity or compassion to be in a place where he would do these things. That horrible things have probably befallen him in his lifetime.

So, I'm wondering how folks who would categorize him as "a sicko," would feel if people were criticizing them for not feeling compassion toward him?

I just think we're all entitled to our reactions about this w/out being criticized for feeling the "wrong" things.

I certainly don't think we all need to agree.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:

I was reacting to a call for compassion toward the parents.
I would ask for a little more compassion from anyone who claimed the parents, in effect, kidnapped the kid. And I am glad others here thought the same thing in reaction to reading that line.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Sigh. But it wasn't just a, "Hey, do you think you find a little compassion for these people."

She said that she would violate the UA with what she had to say to another member. She called the abductor "a sicko."

Another poster agreed and said that AP and GD obviously didn't extend to adults.

I'm just saying that seems kind of odd given that the other member and the abductor are probably also adults--but it seems OK to not have compassion for them.

And I'm just wondering how people would feel if someone said, "You don't have compassion for the abductor?? What kind of monster are you?"

Does that make sense?


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## mummyto3girls (May 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Moonprysm* 
And all this time, I thought it was some sicko.







: The words I have for you, I can't say here.











THey leave their kid in the hotel room!!!!! Why should I pity the parents????


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
I would ask for a little more compassion from anyone who claimed the parents, in effect, kidnapped the kid. And I am glad others here thought the same thing in reaction to reading that line.

I got the impression the "they" the poster used was actually referring to the abductors, but the comment was unfortunately worded in such a way that it could easily be read in the way some of you did.

Okay ... a call for compassion for the people who interpreted the "they" as meaning the parents, as well as for the poster who I don't think meant it the way some took it.

And a call for compassion for me if I read her post wrong and she really DID mean the parents.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I feel sorry for the people who blame the parents.

Apparently, they have a very, very skewed idea of how child abduction happens and who is most at risk. (Do you have people around you that know where your child's bedroom is? Shame on you! Do you occasionally look people in the eyes when in public when your child is not being worn by you? Shame on you!) They also have an extremely poor understanding of blameworthiness and ethics in general which points to lack of access to education.

Ladies, the kind of abduction these parents experienced is very uncommon. The most common is abduction by people we know. Molestation is most common not by abductors, but by family members.

Think you're immune? Think it couldn't happen to you because you're a good parent? I beg you- don't tempt fate. Have a little compassion.

(By the way... so that all of the Europeans don't think we are all a bunch of judgemental UA violations, I'm American. Not feeling PARTICULARLY proud of it at this moment, but I felt the need to add balance to the view.)

(And by the way again.







I do feel sorry for the abductors, and would forgive them from the safe distance at which I stand. But they committed a crime with intent to harm. The parents made a mistake in scale- how far you can go from your toddler and have him or her be safe- but with no intent to harm or even neglect.)


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Well, I'm not in agreement with the idea that it's 100% the parents fault or anything. My heart goes out to them, and I think most parents at some point could have made a poor decision that could have led to disaster in the wrong place, wrong time. That said, they did put their kid at risk. It might be pointless now to bemoan that, but I think it's wrong to deny it. If I left my kids home alone "just for a minute" and there was a fire set by an arsonist, well, I think I'd still be partly to blame.


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## Quennie (May 21, 2007)

I would never have the heart to leave my kid to anyone I'm not sure who he or she is. It's like placing my child in danger! It's disheartening to know that some moms do so and end up in some compromising situation.

Best to have your children near you. No harm can befall them if they are under your care.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Hazelnut, you wouldn't be to blame. You are not responsible for the crimes of other people. You would have made a mistake, an error, but this is not the same as committing a crime.

Trying to harm and making a mistake that results in harm are not the same thing, ethically.

There is such a thing as criminal negligence. But the woman who goes outside to pick up the paper and accidentally locks the door so that she can't get in when her two-year-old wakes up is not criminally negligent. Going out to eat in the yard of a complex while your children sleep less than five seconds away is foolish but not criminally negligent.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

Yes, they made a bad decision but they are paying for it now. Believe me they know it. No judgment we heap on these parents will ever equal the judgement, recrimination, and guilt they put on themselves now. Nothing we say can equal what they must be telling themselves. Nothing can equal it. I don't know how they can sleep at night. It must be sheer agony. I imagine they must be getting sedatives. To think that their little girl might at the moment be raped, sodomized, or worse is absolutely horrifying. And unless their DD is found soon (I pray she is found safe and alive) they will live with the full horror of their decision and it will carry over for the rest of their lives. It will have such a ripple effect on them, their family, and their two other children. They have my compassion and prayers.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
Here in Norway the media is NOT blaming the parents. Not at all. And "the person on the street" isn`t either. Not in a big scale, anyway.









Yes, as explained in the article (did you read it?) NORTHERN Europeans (like Norweigians) as a whole find the behavior of leaving your kids so you can have a nice dinner alone perfectly accpetable.

HOWEVER, Southern Europeans do not. Not at all.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
Hazelnut, you wouldn't be to blame. You are not responsible for the crimes of other people. You would have made a mistake, an error, but this is not the same as committing a crime.

I'm not sure that's true. Depending on where you are, there are some laws re. leaving kids alone and CPS guidelines where a charge of neglect can be brought if something bad happens to a child who has been left unsupervised.

Am I to blame if I leave a loaded gun on the coffee table with an unsupervised toddler, and someone enters my home and shoots her with it?

I would think some of that responsibility would lie with me. Same in the arsenist scenario. Its why you're not supposed to leave kids alone. Bad, unthinkable, surprising, accidental, fatal, dangerous things can happen in the blink of an eye. And someone is supposed to be there to protect kids from them.

If the loaded gun on the coffee table nevers goes off, does it make it any better an idea to leave it there?

I think the vast majority of the people in this thread who "blame" the parents, think that leaving the kids was a bad idea REGARDLESS of the kidnapping.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
Yes, they made a bad decision but they are paying for it now. Believe me they know it. No judgment we heap on these parents will ever equal the judgement, recrimination, and guilt they put on themselves now. Nothing we say can equal what they must be telling themselves. Nothing can equal it.

I am not trying to heap anything on these people or add to their suffering or make them feel bad. I'm just interested in discussing this case.

I'm sure none of us here would have this conversation in the parents' presence.

I might be an unsympathetic monster, but I'm not TACKY!







I kid.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Yes, as explained in the article (did you read it?) NORTHERN Europeans (like Norweigians) as a whole find the behavior of leaving your kids so you can have a nice dinner alone perfectly accpetable.

HOWEVER, Southern Europeans do not. Not at all.


This is just not true. Not about Norwegians.

Norwegians do not find it perfectly acceptable to leave your child and go eat dinner at a restaurant. Not at all. BUT, Norwegians still don`t judge the parents in this case.

I have yet to hear a parent here in Norway saying they would do what Maddies parents did. It`s totally accepted to leave your kid in a pram outside a cafè (where you are sitting very, very close with just a glasswindow between you and the babe) but noone I have talked to has ever said that it is just as ok to leave the child like Maddies parents did. Most people here say they would never do that. And at the same time, most people say that they would never blame the parents for this. We all do things that has the potential to lead to things like this. We all turn away from our children at one point or another.

I can`t talk for all Norwegians, obviously. But as the Administrator of 2 Norwegian parentingboards, one of them among the largest in Norway, I come in contact with loads of parents.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

yeah Isobelle your post gave me a lot to think about, but I still don't entirely agree. I mean, if I leave them alone, they play in the street, and a careful driver hits them accidentally? I leave them alone, and an electrical fire occurs? Endless examples that don't really compare seem pointless, but my point is that at some point, "foolish" decisions amount to some degree of responsibility for the outcome. I don't know. I think leaving kids alone in a hotel room is a little more than foolish.

Not like I want to jump on board with blaming parents for everything though. I agree we've all done something- if not left them alone in a hotel room- that could have led to a disaster in the wrong circumstances. It does bother me that blame seems to be the first response in the U.S. It's just that I can't quite wrap my mind around leaving kids in a hotel room. Maaaybe if I could see the door or something, but three kids? But I don't know.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CrunchyTamara* 
This is just not true. Not about Norwegians.

Norwegians do not find it perfectly acceptable to leave your child and go eat dinner at a restaurant. Not at all. BUT, Norwegians still don`t judge the parents in this case.

I have yet to hear a parent here in Norway saying they would do what Maddies parents did. It`s totally accepted to leave your kid in a pram outside a cafè (where you are sitting very, very close with just a glasswindow between you and the babe) but noone I have talked to has ever said that it is just as ok to leave the child like Maddies parents did. Most people here say they would never do that. And at the same time, most people say that they would never blame the parents for this. We all do things that has the potential to lead to things like this. We all turn away from our children at one point or another.


*Thank you!!
*Not bashing Madeleine's parents does not mean people think it is a good thing to leave the kids alone - it just means they have compassion and understanding for the fact everyone makes mistakes! People in the UK are also saying they would never leave their children alone, but most are NOT attacking the McCanns either.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

It's been a long thread, but it seems to me that the vast, vast majority of the people here have expressed the same thing--disagree with the leaving of kids + some measure of compassion for the parents and not attacking the parents.

Does that sound about right to others?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
It's been a long thread, but it seems to me that the vast, vast majority of the people here have expressed the same thing--disagree with the leaving of kids + some measure of compassion for the parents and not attacking the parents.

Does that sound about right to others?

Yes! We're all practically saying the same thing. I don't see a problem with people having slightly varying shades of opinion on the matter, and clearly neither "side" is going to change the other's mind -- I'd say time to drop it.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Yes! We're all practically saying the same thing. I don't see a problem with people having slightly varying shades of opinion on the matter, and clearly neither "side" is going to change the other's mind -- I'd say time to drop it.

yep . . . although I keep checking the latest postings on this thread, I'm also exasperated by it. I think . . . well . . . we've all said what we have to say on the topic and there isn't much new to be added.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

This thread is now closed to new posts.


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