# can our ap/gd/hs kiddos handle the "real world?"



## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

dd is 4.5
how long do we have to try to go to "AP" playgroups?

whenever we are with our AP friends things are hunky-dory and the kids can play for hours with only intermittent interactions with the adults.
but often when we are in other contexts things are chaotic or worse unless i sit and watch them and often intervene. recently another kid was pulling toys out of her hands - something she has rarely if ever experienced because she is used to being around kids who generally do share, take turns and are reminded / encouraged by their parents to do so when they themselves might not be on top of form.

but the other day this boy was just grabbing and the only advice his dad had was to tell my dd that if he grabs from you, you grab from him back.

from what i hear there are many who parent this way and teach kids to deal with each other this way. this is what they consider being assertive, tough, etc. otherwise kids will be too soft, unable to handle the real world etc.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

My son had an obvious "shift" in terms of what he could cope with around fifth grade. He became more capable of observing and interacting with less gentle people in tough social situations, while still being true to himself. Now, I'm not saying he could survive on city streets or anything -- but I did notice a difference, and both my kids are incredibly sensitive. I think it comes with maturity.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I think with the self assurance & security this type parenting affords that these kids will be BETTER able to handle the real world.


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## MamaB2C (Nov 20, 2007)

In the "real world" do our coworkers or friends grab things from us and we have to grab them back? Do we spit, hit, kick, push and otherwise manhandle each other to get our turn with whatever? Seems to me that at some point all kids will need to learn how to get along politely in the real world, and by not encouraging more cooperative and fair minded behavior from a young age it is delaying the inevitable.

Just my opinion though.


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## imatulip (Nov 18, 2007)

These issues started being less of an issue once the kids started school.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaB2C* 
In the "real world" do our coworkers or friends grab things from us and we have to grab them back? Do we spit, hit, kick, push and otherwise manhandle each other to get our turn with whatever? Seems to me that at some point all kids will need to learn how to get along politely in the real world, and by not encouraging more cooperative and fair minded behavior from a young age it is delaying the inevitable.

Just my opinion though.









Yep. From what I've seen, it's the children who are NOT respected and treated kindly who end up having problems respecting and treating others kindly. Also, as rbzm said, GD'ed kids are more likely to have the strong self-esteem and confidence necessary to cope with a challenging world.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi* 
recently another kid was pulling toys out of her hands - something she has rarely if ever experienced because she is used to being around kids who generally do share, take turns and are reminded / encouraged by their parents to do so when they themselves might not be on top of form.

but the other day this boy was just grabbing and the only advice his dad had was to tell my dd that if he grabs from you, you grab from him back.

That's quite telling! I'd say that being able to share willingly is way better education for the real world


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

A little encouragement and guidance on being assertive might be helpful; just telling her, when she looks to you for help, "Say, 'STOP! I was playing with that." and then follow through by getting the child to return the object.

I will say, though, that sometimes I hang back a bit before I intervene, if DS (16 mos) takes something away from another child who is old enough to express his displeasure. Typically, the other child will yell or get upset, and then DS will look at him and give it back. Often, that child then helps DS reach something else to play with (if he's older) or will show DS that he is happy again.

If I intervene before the child has a chance to show his displeasure, DS turns his focus to me and just gets frustrated/angry. (If the child is more timid, I will then intervene with a gentle, "She was playing with that. Can you give it back?" and if he doesn't, then I "help" him return it. And comfort him if needed.)

And if they are younger children (particularly when DS was also younger) and don't seem to mind giving up the object, at this age I often let it go, figuring that it's ridiculous to enforce personal property rights with kids who are too young to care about them.









Anyway, my point is that not all AP/GD parents necessarily intervene every time, either!


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

With my now 12 yo ds, the hardest thing for him to understand was when adults in authority arbitrarily decided something that wasn't "fair". We really struggled in 1st and 2nd grade when he switched from a very laid back Montessori private school to a public school (due to finances, I had to work full time).


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I honestly haven't noticed much difference at all between AP playgroups and non-AP playgroups. Some kids mine click with, some they don't. Some kids are rude and grabby, both AP and non-AP parents. Some kids are delightful, both non-AP and AP kids. And it's not even always the same kids. Sometimes mine are the rude, grabby ones. When I go through the kids I know in my head, there is not even a pattern relating AP to behavior oddly enough.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I honestly haven't noticed much difference at all between AP playgroups and non-AP playgroups. Some kids mine click with, some they don't. Some kids are rude and grabby, both AP and non-AP parents. Some kids are delightful, both non-AP and AP kids. And it's not even always the same kids. Sometimes mine are the rude, grabby ones. When I go through the kids I know in my head, there is not even a pattern relating AP to behavior oddly enough.

This seems to be true for us, too. I haven't found the behavior of kids to be significantly different AP vs. non-AP, although _usually_ (not always though) the atmosphere is generally more pleasant because parents tend to yell less in AP groups. But on the other hand there is often less interaction from parents in non-AP groups. At least in my DD's age group (around 1-3).


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

ok next question. given that the other parent thinks that grabbing, saying "it's mine" etc are normal and to be reciprocated, whereas we think that sharing and taking turns are normal and to be reciprocated, how do we interact with these kids and how do i explain to my dd why the other child is not sharing etc. I try saying that he's still learning how to, but I am nto sure how well this applies in many cases.


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## MamaB2C (Nov 20, 2007)

I plan on being truthful with my son, as is age appropriate as well as appropriate for the situation. You might explain to her that some kids simply don't play nicely, and offer her some possible solutions and allow her to offer some, She can walk away and play with someone/something else, ask nicely for the toy back, even say "grabbing isn't nice".


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

My kiddo is only 3.5, but so far she's doing pretty well in the 'real' world.

My niece, for example. She hits, pulls hair, and tells DD that she's 'bad'.

The other day, I couldn't have been more proud of DD. They were playing together, and suddenly niece wanted the toy that DD had. So, she stood up and slapped DD across the face, and screamed in her ear "Give it to me! You're BAD!".

DD stood up calmly, looked at me, then at niece, and told her "I don't like to be hit and yelled at. It makes me feel bad. Here's the toy, I'm taking a break." (A lot less eloquent, mind you, with some verb transition issues LOL but you get the jist)

She did fantastically in dealing with what most consider the 'real' world. She was calm, she diffused the situation, she expressed her feelings on what happened, and she took a break.

That was really the first time that I felt like GD/AP was really having an effect, making a difference.


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## tubulidentata2 (Aug 6, 2006)

The Daily Groove had a good, short article about why we shouldn't worry about toughening up our kids for the "real" world. It's called "I'm Not a Frog-Boiler". Here is a link: http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/frog-boiler.

I also personally feel that it's not so bad to be a sensitive person who doesn't easily tolerate meanness from others. A sensitive person with good self-esteem is less likely to get into relationships, either friendship or otherwise, with jerks.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I find the AP (well, GD) kids I know are MUCH more high maintenance to deal with in groups, whereas the kids who are less AP/GD'ed (although parented more gently than is mainstream) are pretty easy. Might just be my particular groups of friends but in my life there is a distinct difference that is opposite to what you are noticing.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

I've actually given up on group play all together, but my experience is that AP kids are WAY more out of control because their parents don't discipline AT ALL (gentle or otherwise) whereas non-AP parents give more inconsistent and/or shaming messages to their kids, but don't tolerate rude or violent behavior.

That's not what you asked though,







!

I've seen a real shift this year for my 10 yo in 5th grade in terms of not being too overly sensitive and taking things personally from peers. Unfortunately, she is also slower to report serious bullying when she sees and/or experiences it at school. Although she's sensitive, she's always been very aware without being scared out in the "real world". She's also had some great education and training in this area by professionals.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

You might explain to her that some kids simply don't play nicely,
I don't consider this an acceptable explanation. Anyway she would then ask "why dont they play nicely?" and we would be back to my standard answer, "s/he is still learning." When the other kid is younger than dd, this flies ok, but if the kid is older, then it seems a little ridiculous, or like we are just making excuses for unacceptable behavoir. It also doesn't seem to set a good example of gentle discipline to simply "cover up" for others.

Today dd was trying to play with a kid who was grabbing her toys, not sharing his etc and his mom advised her, "next time when he asks you to play with him, you just tell him that you will only play if he shares." Maybe this would be ok, though my dd just replied, "No!" to the mom.









[dunno whether to







]


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## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktmama* 
I've actually given up on group play all together, but my experience is that AP kids are WAY more out of control because their parents don't discipline AT ALL (gentle or otherwise) whereas non-AP parents give more inconsistent and/or shaming messages to their kids, but don't tolerate rude or violent behavior.

That's not what you asked though,







!

I've seen a real shift this year for my 10 yo in 5th grade in terms of not being too overly sensitive and taking things personally from peers. Unfortunately, she is also slower to report serious bullying when she sees and/or experiences it at school. Although she's sensitive, she's always been very aware without being scared out in the "real world". She's also had some great education and training in this area by professionals.









: Unfortunately, I have to agree. It actually used to really, really turn me off to GD- I saw so many kids at the local LLL that had moms who talked wonderfully about GD and how well it worked... and had totally ill disciplined kids.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

From my experience having a good solid AP and GD base makes it easier for them to handle the "real world".

I started my son out in a Waldorf nursery program which was very GD, and he did great. But last summer I had to move him to a traditional preschool because I needed the childcare. I knew they would not be GD and worried how he would handle it. He's done EXCELLENT.

We talk a lot about things I don't agree with that they do at the school, and he understands that we respect and follow the rules, even if we don't agree with them. He is doing so well there and is very able to handle it, I think greatly because of his strong AP and GD base at home.

It makes me feel really good about public school next year.


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## normajean (Oct 21, 2003)

I haven't found that I've had to intervene a whole lot. My older son, who tends to be a little more reserved would respond by just giving the other child whatever they want, so we did work with him a little on being assertive, and that its OK to say "no."

_My take on the whole thing has been to encourage my kids to work out their own problems._

I've never made an effort to select playgroups with other AP/GD type parents. In real life you are around all kinds of people, and while they may not be grabbing things from you, some people are oblivious to social conventions, say rude/cutting things, or are just outright self centered and don't realize their actions hurt or bother others. These are all typical behaviors of 2-7 year olds, so if my children learn to navigate socially on their own at these ages, I think they will be better off for the rest of their lives.

So if a child grabs a toy from mine, and mine comes to me crying, I console them, let them know I get that it is upsetting, and help them figure out what to do next. They may decide to ask for the toy back, or they may decide to let it go, or they may decide to offer to trade another appealing toy for the one they wanted. I let them decide on their own what to do, then encourage and support them in their choice.

Sometimes other kids respond well to that and sometimes they don't. That is another important thing a lot of adults could have learned a little younger-_the only person whose behavior we can control is our own._

They are growing up to be quite the collaborative, cooperative players, regardless of who else is at the playdate or how they were parented.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

My older son, who tends to be a little more reserved would respond by just giving the other child whatever they want, so we did work with him a little on being assertive, and that its OK to say "no."
dd also tends to give the other child the swing, toy etc when asked - expecting others to reciprocate if she asks. but what about kids who refuse to give , but only ask/ grab? they are hardly likely to take no for an answer either. i could really appreciate some tips on how to be assertive with such kids - right now it seems easiest to opt out of playing with them or try another time when they might be more cooperative.


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## MamaB2C (Nov 20, 2007)

Quote:

I don't consider this an acceptable explanation. Anyway she would then ask "why dont they play nicely?" and we would be back to my standard answer, "s/he is still learning." When the other kid is younger than dd, this flies ok, but if the kid is older, then it seems a little ridiculous, or like we are just making excuses for unacceptable behavoir. It also doesn't seem to set a good example of gentle discipline to simply "cover up" for others.
I don't think it's your responsibility to explain other kids behavior or cover up for them. I agree it's a bad example to set. If your DD ask why another child doesn't play nice, or reciprocate sharing, can't you just say "I don't know why he/she is being that way, honey, I think much more fun when everyone shares and is kind, don't you?" then help her come up solutions. The fact is not everyone is cooperative, children or adults, and part of learning about the "real world" is learning how to respond in these situations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi* 
dd also tends to give the other child the swing, toy etc when asked - expecting others to reciprocate if she asks. but what about kids who refuse to give , but only ask/ grab? they are hardly likely to take no for an answer either. i could really appreciate some tips on how to be assertive with such kids - right now it seems easiest to opt out of playing with them or try another time when they might be more cooperative.

Redifer mentioned her DC saying "I don't like to be yelled at. It makes me feel bad..." and then walked away for a break. That was perfect! You could help DD come up with some similarly appropriate things to say and do.

Another excellent suggestion:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *normajean*
So if a child grabs a toy from mine, and mine comes to me crying, I console them, let them know I get that it is upsetting, and *help them figure out what to do next*. They may decide to ask for the toy back, or they may decide to let it go, or they may decide to offer to trade another appealing toy for the one they wanted. I let them decide on their own what to do, then encourage and support them in their choice.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Yes of course they will, and they have a great foundation and security in their homes and the love and support they get from parents.

The world is not a nice place sometimes, but having learned gentleness and having it modeled for them will equip kids with a lot of coping, and we as parents will be there to help guide them as they need it.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi* 
I don't consider this an acceptable explanation. Anyway she would then ask "why dont they play nicely?" and we would be back to my standard answer, "s/he is still learning." When the other kid is younger than dd, this flies ok, but if the kid is older, then it seems a little ridiculous, or like we are just making excuses for unacceptable behavoir. It also doesn't seem to set a good example of gentle discipline to simply "cover up" for others.
]

I think still learning is a perfectly acceptable explanation. Everyone learns at a different pace, and people have different teachers.









It takes a long time to learn to play well with others. Some adults are still learning!!


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

Some adults are still learning!!
Yeah, that is what I would tend to think, but at some point it becomes presumptuous to consider that those who think / do differently are "still learning" to do as we do (or wish to do). As far as I can tell, the dad of the child who grabbed from my dd believed that my dd was "still learning" to grab back and be tough / assertive, etc.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Interesting, because I think she dealt with it well....BUT, I don't like the fact that she gave in. I would not be okay with my children learning to give in to that sort of behaviour from others. AND by giving the toy to ther other child, she is helping teach her that her behaviour works to get what she wants.

I don't think I would feel that this was a sucessful interaction for either child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
My kiddo is only 3.5, but so far she's doing pretty well in the 'real' world.

My niece, for example. She hits, pulls hair, and tells DD that she's 'bad'.

The other day, I couldn't have been more proud of DD. They were playing together, and suddenly niece wanted the toy that DD had. So, she stood up and slapped DD across the face, and screamed in her ear "Give it to me! You're BAD!".

DD stood up calmly, looked at me, then at niece, and told her "I don't like to be hit and yelled at. It makes me feel bad. Here's the toy, I'm taking a break." (A lot less eloquent, mind you, with some verb transition issues LOL but you get the jist)

She did fantastically in dealing with what most consider the 'real' world. She was calm, she diffused the situation, she expressed her feelings on what happened, and she took a break.

That was really the first time that I felt like GD/AP was really having an effect, making a difference.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi* 
Yeah, that is what I would tend to think, but at some point it becomes presumptuous to consider that those who think / do differently are "still learning" to do as we do (or wish to do). As far as I can tell, the dad of the child who grabbed from my dd believed that my dd was "still learning" to grab back and be tough / assertive, etc.

It does become presumptuous if your expectation is conformity to the same standard. (Also, I think it's presumptuous to expect children to all behave the same without variation, or to have the exact same standard. Children will choose different ways of dealing with situations based on their personalities, upbringing and developmental stage too.) Neither should we expect all parents to parent the same, as there are many ways of parenting that work for different people.

But I look at it in the framework of the adult chooses what how to behave, and then lives with the consequences, so yes, many adults are still working it out on getting along with others.

I am still learning and improving my social interactions and skills. I think everyone is a work in progress, each to our own destinations.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi* 
from what i hear there are many who parent this way and teach kids to deal with each other this way. this is what they consider being assertive, tough, etc. otherwise kids will be too soft, unable to handle the real world etc.


Ugh. I hate that kind of attitude.

We've also had issues with ap (though not always gd) and homeschooled kids with aggression issues. In those cases the parents weren't encouraging their kids to be aggressive but they also weren't IMO very GD. The parents often didn't want to be bothered with their kids so they would just leave them to work it out. Which usually ended up with the aggressive kids terrorizing the non-aggressive kids.

What worked for us was to spend as much time as possible with non-aggressive kids. Most parents practiced what I would call GD although not all were ap. It is so much nicer to play with non-agressive GD kids IMO.

Also when the kids were little, I supervised pretty closely and helped the kids work it out.

I have found that when we do encounter aggressive kids, my kids are able to be assertive with them.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
Interesting, because I think she dealt with it well....BUT, I don't like the fact that she gave in. I would not be okay with my children learning to give in to that sort of behaviour from others. AND by giving the toy to ther other child, she is helping teach her that her behaviour works to get what she wants.

I don't think I would feel that this was a sucessful interaction for either child.

I thought it was great on her part. It's not like she just 'gave her the toy'; she completely walked away from the whole situation, which is what the goal was.

And my niece really didn't get what she wanted; she got the toy, but she wanted to play with my daughter. When DD took her 'break', niece just kind of sat around, dumbfounded as to what to do with herself. When DD came back, niece apologized, they hugged, and played nicely for the rest of the day.

I don't think DD reinforced her idea that hitting gets her what she wants; She learned that obviously, hitting doesn't make people want to play with you. She didn't get any negative or positive attention from the interaction, she didn't get a playmate, all she got was a toy and to sit by herself.

Plus, I'm trying to teach DD which situations to give in to, and which to cave. To me, it's not just black and white, you either give in or you don't, 100%. I want her to learn to evaluate the situation, and figure out whether it's worth it, to her, to 'put up a fight', so to speak. Even as adults, there are things we just don't bother with because it just isn't worth it. This is a skill she needs to learn: is the toy really worth the aggravation, to have it right this second? Or if I handle the situation, will I be able to stand up for my rights to non-violence, and be able to play with the toy again later anyway?


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

Also when the kids were little, I supervised pretty closely and helped the kids work it out.
here too ppl have very different ideas. some think that helping kids work it out interferes with their learning. I feel this varies with age. But while I think my 4 y.o. still may need help someone else may think 4 is old enough and why I am still facilitating (or in their words, rescuing?)

I am not sure how to transition from my current practice of being available / intervening to help work it out, to one where i let the situation deteriorate and even if the kids can't work it out just let my dd come crying to me (which sometimes happens anyway). Right now i feel that with just a little intervention or even just by being present / involves, i can put out fires at very early stages. with comments like, "oh i see, that is another way to play that game" or just by showing interest in the activity.


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## slinginhipmama (Feb 15, 2005)

Its funny how I came upon this thread!!! I was just "accused" of not preparing my 6yr old ds for the "real world" by a friend of mine. Apparently, our parenting ideas are EXTREMELY different and because I don't spank or yell at my child, she feels that I am raising "a wimp" and I'm treating him as if he is "entitled" (her words, not mine). Well, I am teaching him to feel entitled, to being treated well! I was floored! I needed to log on to this site to feel validated. So many parents take the easy way out and scream or spank on impulse. I am NOT saying I am perfect, goodness knows I have a breaking point too, but I don't act on it.

If anything I feel GD teaches our children to listen and have empathy for others and to look at both sides of a situation.


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
I honestly haven't noticed much difference at all between AP playgroups and non-AP playgroups. Some kids mine click with, some they don't. Some kids are rude and grabby, both AP and non-AP parents. Some kids are delightful, both non-AP and AP kids. And it's not even always the same kids. Sometimes mine are the rude, grabby ones. When I go through the kids I know in my head, there is not even a pattern relating AP to behavior oddly enough.

Yup, exactly. I put my son in an AP environmetal type summerschool, yknow go to the farm, find bugs...all those things, only the PC people do it, you know... THe kids were waaay worse than kids in his school who are all on the spectrum. I actually took him out after witnessing some stuff going down, which is not my normal M.O.


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

so all of ours are grown up and they are fine in the real world- actually they are pretty successful and get along well with others- if anything I would say that even the shyest is a leader because of self-confidence , clear on limits as well as being fairly even toned and not punitive toward co-workers or friends.


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