# Do you do the whole Santa Claus thing?



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

We keep the Santa myth going in this house. My older one figured it out at some point but had such fun with it and likes to help the little one write notes for Santa and talk about Santa. We don't do the "he keeps a list of nice kids and naughty kids and naughty kids get coal" thing. We say Santa loves all children. But we do it.

But I know a lot of parents don't, for a variety of reasons. What do you do in your house?


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## puffingirl (Nov 2, 2006)

We did Santa ( no naughty lists and he brings only 1 gift) but I decided from the start that I would be honest when DD asked for the truth. Well, that happened last night---DD is 6. She was totally fine about the whole thing but I'm a little sad and DH is very sad too, especially since he wanted more kiddos and she's our only and growing so fast. Bit of a tough day for the grown-ups in our house. DD is just as excited about the holidays though.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Ha! This is so why we had a second, and why they're 7 years apart! LOL









(She was also going to be an only.)


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

No santa here. I had big time trust issues with my parents after discovering that most of the fun stuff in childhood was a lie and fabrication. (santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy) We traveled when the kids were small to avoid the holiday stuff and then we invented our own quiet solstice thing that we still do with them as teens.


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## michelleepotter (Apr 8, 2013)

When I was a kid, I was very shy, and had a hard time with the other kids at school. I don't remember how old I was, but I still believed in Santa at an age when other kids didn't. I vividly remember getting teased about it at school, and insisting that Santa MUST be real, because there was no way my mother would EVER lie to me. Then I got home from school, and my mom had to tell me the truth. I was devastated; my mom still thinks I overreacted.









When my older kids were little, we didn't boycott Santa (didn't avoid movies, books, or decorations with Santa, and we even took them to see Santa at the mall and labeled our gifts to them as being "from Santa"), but we made it clear that Santa was just a game. It was a fun thing that we enjoyed, but not any more real than Mickey Mouse or Cinderella. It worked for us, and none of our older kids seemed the least upset by the way we did things.

But then my middle daughter (our fifth child) came along. She would get very upset at any suggestion that Santa was not real. She is almost 9, and still insists that Santa is absolutely real, and will NOT hear otherwise. And I kind of feel like it would be just as upsetting to her if I took that away as it was for me to find out that my mother had "lied" to me. So we have a compromise. She's not allowed to get upset that the older kids don't believe, but no one is allowed to try to convince her that Santa isn't real. It's sort of live and let live.

The only complication is that now our youngest two take for granted that Santa IS real in much the same way that the oldest four took for granted that he isn't. I never argue with them or try to convince them Santa isn't real. If they outright ask me, I say that I don't believe, but it's fine if they do. Mostly they don't ask me. I guess it's good that my kids have the strength of their convictions, and feel confident enough to believe even when half of their family doesn't.

That said, I do insist to all of the kids that Daddy is the tooth fairy. I tell them that he puts on a tutu, ballet slippers, and wings, and he waves his magic wand to become teeny tiny when he collects their teeth. I even have photographic evidence! And I swear that he's got a magic castle full of children's teeth hidden away where they can't see it. Not a one of them believes me.


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## mamapigeon (Dec 16, 2010)

We don't plan on doing it, but there is a lot of Santa centered stuff out there. DS is already asking questions about it, just from information he has gleaned from outside sources. Gah! I like the idea of not reinforcing the belief, but allowing kids to think how they please.


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## root*children (Mar 22, 2004)

We don't do it. I don't like that the whole "magic" is centered around consumerism. My older kids are instructed not to let out the secret to other kids because it could hurt their feelings (shaking up the belief system!), and my littlest one is still blissfully unaware of the whole charade


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## skycheattraffic (Apr 16, 2012)

My girls are 32 months and 4 months so I'm not super experienced with Santa stuff yet. We don't plan on making a big deal about it. A gift from mom and dad and a gift from Santa for each kiddo. I'm generally a bit picky about toys so if there's something one of them wants at some point with all their heart that I cringe at... Well that can be from Santa lol. We won't do elf on the shelf or naughty/nice or anything and keep things small and budget friendly. I like Santa as sort of a background character but he's not going to be a big deal if I can manage it








Edited for the run-on sentence from hell


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I wrote a whole article on why my kid never believed in Santa: http://articles.earthlingshandbook.org/2013/09/25/why-my-kid-never-believed-in-santa-claus/

Basically, we have 3 reasons:

We didn't like the idea of feeling like we were lying. The inadvisability of doing so was obvious by the time our son was 2 because he's a very analytical type who wants to know all about how things like magic tricks and special effects work--can't fool him!

We wanted him to understand that holiday "magic" is something we make for each other, which takes some effort and money--not something that comes out of thin air.

I wanted to teach him to believe in God, and I feared this could be undermined by also teaching him to believe in other supernatural entities that don't exist.

It's worked out really well, but we have learned that it's crucial to remind him every year before Thanksgiving that he needs to be tolerant of those who believe and not spoil it for them!


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## Katie8681 (Dec 29, 2010)

It's really time for me to decide this! Lol... Santa is fun but at the same time it would feel really strange to lie to my kid! I'm always trying to explain the world, you know? Hmm


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## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

I never liked the lying thing. So, mostly I've avoided the topic. I simply say, "Well, I've never seen anyone come down the chimney. I don't see how that would be possible." Or, "I've heard that, but I'm not sure if I believe that." Or, whatever else is appropriate. The kids usually fill me in on what somebody else tells them and then I turn it back on them with a "What do you think?" I don't want to lie to them and I don't want to take away a need they may have to believe (like michelleepotter's middle daughter).

So, I just let them tell me. It's worked so far. DS at 6 has asked some pointed questions this year which I've answered truthfully. "But, reindeer don't fly mom. How is that possible?" "You're right honey. Reindeer don't fly. I don't see how the whole thing is possible." But, he hasn't yet followed up with any "gotcha" questions. But, I remember just figuring it out on my own and continuing to live the dream for quite awhile. My sister filled my niece in at 7 with the whole truth. She took it and then the next year was all in and believing and writing letters and everything and we all just accepted it and ran with it. I've seen this with other kids, too. So, I think you just let kids follow their own path on this subject and they'll do what they need to do.


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## averysmomma05 (Feb 28, 2007)

We have mostly avoided the Santa thing at our house. The kids believe so I don't crush their spirits by saying anything. We decided Santa only brings stockings. Everything else comes from mom & dad. We decided it that way so they would know mom and dad works/worked hard to afford the things they get.


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## anjii (Sep 8, 2005)

Nope... he's a nice character in stories, like Frosty and Rudolph. Jesus is the star of Christmas, and Daddy works hard to provide us with the gifts they get, so they need to be appreciated and respected. Being good doesn't magically get you a wish list full of crap, just like lean years when we can't afford much don't mean they were on some naughty list and therefore didn't get stuff as cool as what "santa" got their friends.


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## mundi (Nov 17, 2011)

No. I don't want to lie. At 5, he hears a lot about it at school, but the way we explain it is that "Santa is the spirit of giving." And then we turn the focus of the conversation on the importance of giving.


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## AshleynJacy (Nov 3, 2006)

Yes, it's fun. I don't normally "lie" to my kids, but this is one area I don't mind. I do however only have a single gift from Santa. The kids know the others are from mom and dad.


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## arebeewhy (Dec 10, 2013)

Nope. We're Jewish. When my now-four-year-old saw Santa last year he thought it was Moses because of the beard. We will be teaching him not to spoil it for his cousins that do celebrate Christmas.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *arebeewhy*
> 
> Nope. We're Jewish. *When my now-four-year-old saw Santa last year he thought it was Moses because of the beard.* We will be teaching him not to spoil it for his cousins that do celebrate Christmas.


Little kids are so cute! That's adorable.


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## erinmattsmom88 (Oct 28, 2010)

We do Santa at our house. With our first, I was torn on whether or not we should, but DH thought it would be fun, etc. So, there is a Santa at our house... until there isn't. We don't do Elf on the Shelf though.


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## CuddleBug'sMama (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes we do the whole Santa thing. I had a wonderful experience believing as a child, one of my happiest memories. I came to the conclusion on my own when I was 8 that he wasn't real, but wasn't devastated. After that I had fun instilling the belief in my younger siblings. My oldest is 6 1/2 and very much believes. I love seeing her eyes light up when she gets her return letter from Santa in the mail.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erinmattsmom88*
> 
> We do Santa at our house. With our first, I was torn on whether or not we should, but DH thought it would be fun, etc. So, there is a Santa at our house... until there isn't. We don't do Elf on the Shelf though.


I should TOTALLY do a thread on Elf on the Shelf! I think it's pretty creepy. I'm on it!


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## Astraia (Jan 1, 2009)

We don't do Santa. I made it very clear that he's a nice story, a happy idea, but he A. isn't real and B. doesn't make a lot of sense. What about kids who live in areas of the world where they don't do Christmas? Who gets to decide who is naughty or nice, and what constitutes being "nice" anyway? I want her to appreciate, also, that her gifts come from me- I plan and think and buy everything, very carefully- and her grandparents, aunties, etc.

I'm getting a LOT of resistance from my 5yo DD who wants to believe- and tells me, "he is TOO real, you just think he isn't because he's INVISIBLE!" I don't belabour the point, but I have made it clear that I don't think he's real. I've said so far that she is welcome to believe whatever she wants- everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want- but not to be surprised if there are no Santa Clause presents under the tree, this year or any year.


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## Melifera (Dec 11, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> No santa here. I had big time trust issues with my parents after discovering that most of the fun stuff in childhood was a lie and fabrication. (santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy) We traveled when the kids were small to avoid the holiday stuff and then we invented our own quiet solstice thing that we still do with them as teens.


Philomom, this sounds like exactly what happened to me as a kid! My littles are 2 & 4 and this will be our 2nd year celebrating Solstice rather than Christmas. We're still searching for traditions that fit us. Would you mind sharing some of yours?


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## turtlemamameg (Jun 24, 2009)

We don't do Santa. We can't avoid the presence of him at Christmas time, but instead of carrying on the myth, we talk about the history of the St Nicholas, and the spirit of giving, and refer to Santa as being a fun character. We homeschoold DD and most of her friends are homeschooled as well, so the school influence is not really present. We are clear with her about our disdain for consumerism. In our immediate family we only give handmade gifts and we do it at Solstice. Our extended families all celebrate Christmas with varying degrees of religiousness. We let each part of the family give Christmas gifts, but with a no Santa policy.

Our solstice traditions are just evolving, but the week before solstice we string popcorn and dry apple rings and make birdseed ornaments, felted ornaments, etc and then on solstice go to our outdoor balsam tree and hang decorations and talk about the importance of the dark time and celebrate the coming of the light with songs and merriment around our tree. It is along our cross country ski path so we visit it all throughout winter and remind each other about the returning light. (We take the decorations down at the spring equinox.) We have our dinner by candle light. And then we each share our homemade gifts.

On Christmas day we go for a family hike and also have a nice dinner, and open the gifts that our family has sent.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Full-on Santa family here!







I don't consider myths lying at all and, although I think there are ways to provide this type of cultural identity and fantasy if a family isn't comfortable with this type of thing, I think these types of myths & traditions are important for kids, whatever culture they come from. But, we don't do "naughty or nice" at all. Our Santa is unconditional.







We also don't do the Elf on the Shelf because there are enough old traditions in our extended family -- no need for us to add new ones when there's barely time for the old.

FTR, we are an atheist family and very comfortable in our skin about that. My DH is the first generation of his family to not practice Christianity. I am the third. It's slightly harder for him to reconcile practicing Christian traditions than it is for me. We tell our DC that we are "culturally Christian" because our extended family were part of that religious tradition and so we honor our heritage in a non-religious way. I mean, we all know that a lot of the Christmas traditions pre-date Christianity and/or has no real relationship so it's really not a hard thing for me to reconcile.


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

We are a Santa family too, but don't really talk about it much, never have. Stockings get filled overnight and boys are happy in the morning. They haven't really believed after age six and my older son was never the type to swallow the story. We just haven't discussed it much, it's always been such a peripheral part of the holiday, and my sons sensed that from my attitude and didn't question the issue much, I guess. Once they were big enough to know better they knew better but it wasn't a stark moment of change. I presented it as a fun idea that was mentioned only once or twice per season and left it at that. I assumed they've pretty much always understood it as a myth.


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## amberskyfire (Sep 15, 2007)

We do Santa but not like most people do. We make sure the kids know that Santa isn't a real person, but we all, even the kids, pretend that we think he is. *wink wink*

When we were reading the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, I loved the part where she started to grow up and began to realize on her own that Santa wasn't a real person. Her mother stressed that Santa IS real. Santa is the name for the magic of Christmas which is love.

"Christmas Eve was the time when everybody was unselfish. On that one night, Santa Claus was everywhere, because everybody, all together, stopped being selfish and wanted other people to be happy. And in the morning, you saw what that had done. "

I just love that quote. It's so beautiful. We don't put any presents under the tree all of December. The tree stays empty. Then on Christmas eve, the kids go to bed excited and the adults bring out all of the presents from hiding and put them under the tree. In the morning "SANTA CAME!" And the kids get to take part in being Santa, too. They can hide their own presents to others under the tree when they wake up in the morning before the adults do and then they get to say "why, I don't know where those presents came from! It must have been Santa!"

Santa is a lot of fun around our place.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> Full-on Santa family here!
> 
> ...


We do Santa, and no, we're not lying to our children. No more than when we read fictional stories, play make believe, or leave out tiny presents for the fairies.
We didn't bother with Santa at all until she was three and was 'getting it' from all around the community. At that point, DP and i decided to play along, and be honest when she inquired. At almost four, she asked if we believed in him. We said that so many people believing in the spirit of Christmas makes him real. At almost five, she's asked again.
Me: I believe in the spirit of Christmas.
Her: Do you believe that Santa is real?
Me: People make him real.
Her: I believe in him.

And that's where it's at this year. I expect that next year, she'll be Santa to her little brother.

Might be worth mentioning that we do a pretty simple Christmas. We stay out of the stores this time of year. We go visit a low key, no-mall, no-photo-package-required 'pretend Santa,' one that our kids know is not actually Santa. Our big celebration is the Solstice. We rent a cabin and light a fire and send our wishes for the new year into the world by putting them in the fire. Is that any more of a lie than Santa?
As for Christmas proper, we do stockings, and one gift.

I wrote about attachment parenting and Santa on my blog last year. Here's the gist:

"I'm not lying to my child. I'm encouraging magical thinking. There is great value in magical thinking. We need to be able to believe in things we can't see and concepts that challenge our imaginations. There are all kinds of things that we can't see or prove exist, but are, nonetheless. Love, hope, faith, to name a few. We need to be able to take a turn at being enchanted, in order to understand how to enchant others. We need to be able to take a flight of fancy, because we are a species of storytellers and story listeners. Stories are an integral tool when it comes to absorbing and understanding human nature. Childhood is filled with stories of all kinds. Or, at least, I hope it is. And I think it should be."


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

There's a part of me who would love to say that we do a simple Christmas but THAT would be a lie.







We DO IT UP!! For whatever reason my extended family just showers gifts for this holiday. So much so that nearly everything I own was a past Christmas gift. All my kid's clothing, toys, our kitchen stuff - nearly every thing we own besides the stuff we thrift for the rest of the year. From the outside looking in it probably seems pretty consumerist but we aren't consumers the rest of the year and the gifts we exchange are by-in-large well-made, ethical, useful gifts.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> I wrote about attachment parenting and Santa on my blog last year. To quote myself:
> 
> I'm not lying to my child. I'm encouraging magical thinking. There is great value in magical thinking. We need to be able to believe in things we can't see and concepts that challenge our imaginations. There are all kinds of things that we can't see or prove exist, but are, nonetheless. Love, hope, faith, to name a few. We need to be able to take a turn at being enchanted, in order to understand how to enchant others. We need to be able to take a flight of fancy, because we are a species of storytellers and story listeners. Stories are an integral tool when it comes to absorbing and understanding human nature. Childhood is filled with stories of all kinds. Or, at least, I hope it is. And I think it should be.


100% agree and love how you phrased this!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

My oldest has always been a very cautious child. She can be very naive, too, but she never truly believed in Santa. I think the idea of some strange man in a funny suit sneaking into her house in the middle of the night just freaked her out too much. I wanted to have the stockings and the trappings so we did read Santa stories like "The Night Before Christmas" and I sort of suggested to her that "wouldn't it be cool" in the same way that wouldn't it be cool if we could fly, etc. I never suggested that he really was real or that it was all fake. I just left enough room for her to pretend if she wanted to. My younger daughter did want to believe at certain times. I know one year maybe in the summer she was convinced it was all parents and no real Santa, but then when Christmas rolled around she really wanted to believe again so she let herself. We didn't contradict. It can be a fun game to play. I remember when I was a young adult I really liked filling the stockings for my parents and brother and sister when I would go home for Christmas. At this point I'm a little more Bah humbug about the whole holiday, but I try to keep up a good front for the kids' sake.

Elf on a Shelf was concocted by a mom in Georgia or Alabama in the past ten years or so. The little guys have been around since the 50s. My folks had them when I was growing up and I think I still have one I inherited somewhere, but they weren't spying on you back then. That part is a modern invention.


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## farmermomma (Oct 30, 2012)

DS, 6yo. Just asked if I believe in Santa. I told him I like to believe in Santa. He said he liked to believe in it too. Belief is kind of like a choice this way.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beanma*
> 
> I remember when I was a young adult I really liked filling the stockings for my parents and brother and sister when I would go home for Christmas.


One of my personal best was filling the stockings of my cousins whose mother was sick with cancer that year. I never told who did it. Still makes me happy to think about and a little sad.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Even before I can remember, I didn't buy the idea of Santa Claus- I played along because I got presents, and I was completely upfront about it. The only pictures of me on Santa's lap are with a very annoyed look on my face. I still find the idea incredibly creepy. He watches children sleep, sneaks into their house, controls their behavior, and has them sit on his lap in exchange for toys and candy. Oh, yeah, that's something I want to teach my child is okay... I will *not* be explaining or expressing my dislike of Santa until my kids are grown, just to be clear. They're free to make their own decisions on whether the Santa myth is a heartwarming holiday tale or creepy.

My mom still tries to keep the Santa Myth alive. I honestly don't know if she believes in Santa or if she's just nostalgic for when I was younger.

I'd rather use it as an opportunity to teach my kids the importance of respecting others' beliefs. Just because we don't believe in Santa Claus, other people do- and it is not nice at all to tell those people that Santa isn't real. We aren't raising our children in any religion, whatever they grow up to believe there will be people with religious beliefs they don't hold and I want them to be able to be respectful about it. I really think that my parents fell down on teaching me to be respectful of others' beliefs and, when I was a kid, I lost friends because of it.

People keep asking when we're going to get a picture of our baby on Santa's lap. I don't know if the grandparents are going to start pushing for it. My partner is apathetic, I don't want to.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> I wrote about attachment parenting and Santa on my blog last year. Here's the gist:
> 
> "I'm not lying to my child. I'm encouraging magical thinking. There is great value in magical thinking. We need to be able to believe in things we can't see and concepts that challenge our imaginations. There are all kinds of things that we can't see or prove exist, but are, nonetheless. Love, hope, faith, to name a few. We need to be able to take a turn at being enchanted, in order to understand how to enchant others. We need to be able to take a flight of fancy, because we are a species of storytellers and story listeners. Stories are an integral tool when it comes to absorbing and understanding human nature. Childhood is filled with stories of all kinds. Or, at least, I hope it is. And I think it should be."


I disagree firmly. We can tell stories without going to the point of lying about who put the gifts under the tree or who moved a toy.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

sillysapling: "I still find the idea incredibly creepy. He watches children sleep, sneaks into their house, controls their behavior, and has them sit on his lap in exchange for toys and candy. Oh, yeah, that's something I want to teach my child is okay."

1. I'd never suggest to my kids that anyone watches them sleep. Except me, maybe. And they're safe in bed with us, anyway.
2. Our idea of Santa has nothing to do with 'naughty or nice.' We don't up any ante or threaten any loss in this regard.
3. Santa's supposed omniscience has zero bearing on my children's behaviour, and I counter any outside influence that makes that claim. We do the same for God and Jesus, actually.
4. I'd never have my kids sit on anyone's lap in exchange for anything. If they want to, they're welcome to.
5. Santa doesn't sneak into our house. He's invited. We even leave out cookies and milk and write a note as an invitation.

I just wanted to be clear about those points, because I agree that those elements = creepy.
There is definitely a scale of buy-in, and we're not anywhere near the end where that's the norm. Our eldest hears all that 'he sees you when you're sleeping / knows when you've been bad or good' crap and I tell her that it's nonsense and is a way that some parents scare their kids into being 'good.'


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## Margaritaa (Aug 22, 2011)

We do Santa







I my 8 yr old asked if Santa was real and I just said he is if you believe he is.


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## Backroads (May 4, 2013)

Technically, I was never told Santa wasn't real. My parents just told us you only get presents if you believe [once we were too old]. In fact, they still say this (with a wink and a nod) even though all us kids have reached adulthood. They never did the naughty/nice list, though, but were excellent about the whole Santa myth when we were younger--quite creative. Which was interesting, because the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny and the like were never real. They like the Santa thing.

Husband and I have talked it over and we're both in favor of the Santa myth, though it will probably be used more as a fairy tale--no elaborate ruses on our part.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> There is definitely a scale of buy-in, and we're not anywhere near the end where that's the norm.


Yea, same here. My guess is that whether you feel Santa is a "lie" or creepy or a way to control your kids or be conditional with gifts has a lot to do with how Santa was done in your life. In our home Santa is a story, a myth that kids are free to believe in or not. There are clues as to whether your child wants to believe in things like this. The key is to listen closely.

I'm not sure but my gut tells me that many, many cultures have a myth like this for children. Does anyone know?

I do agree that Santa is a bit troubling because this myth is tied to gifts AND in the weirdest way, religion (weird in that he is tied to a religious holiday but not celebrated as a religious figure). So, I'm not saying I can't relate to the bad taste that Santa brings...

But done well Santa can be fun and an extension of what I expect is a long, rich history of providing children cultural identity and something that I suspect help them make sense of their world. So, I say, ditch Santa (if that was once part of your culture) if you want but be open to participating in story telling for your kids without the burden of always being the voice of reality.


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## Serafina33 (Jan 24, 2013)

So interesting to hear everyone's perspective, especially the well thought out rationales behind diametrically opposed viewpoints.


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## dawnbyington (Oct 29, 2013)

We celebrate St Nicholas. It was originally a holiday on Dec 6 to celebrate the wonderful life of St Nicholas. Now we have wrapped it up in christmas. So we celebrate the wonderful charitable deeds St Nicholas did. The kids think he's real because of the movies but my son is now coming to realize that its a remembrance of a real person and he is cool with it.

We also celebrate Christmas, the day of Christ's birth. AND we have just started investigating and celebrating Hanukkah since doing our family tree I discovered we have some Jewish roots!


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## mamatogirls (Nov 23, 2009)

I find it really strange that someone would have "trust issues" because their parents dis Santa and the Easter Bunny...I think parents intent is to create magic and give their children some fun and wonder. I loved all these childhood things and love them for my kids. Sometimes we "lie" to our kids to protect them. I find it really hard to believe, and all of you that say you don't lie to your kids are lying. Santa is not going to damage your kids. Not teaching your kids to be grateful will though. And by the way, all kids question Santa when they reach a certain age, it's when they start logical thinking. I ask my kids what they think when they ask if Santa is real. If they think he is then I play along. They can believe as long as they want. My oldest said it all, she said I'm glad you did Santa for me, it's not lying, it made me happy. Now she helps with the joy for her younger siblings


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

These are genuine questions for the No Santa Campers ...

What do you do about imaginary friends?
What do you do when your child puts a sign on your front door to keep out ghosts?
What do you do when you child sees something that isn't there and insists that they did?
What do you do about the afterlife?
What do you do about 'visits' from loved ones who have died?
What do you do when they ask about natural disasters? Murder?
What do you do when your child wants to be a 'real live prince' with a 'real live castle' when he grows up?
What do you do when they ask what happened to auntie's body when she was buried?
What do you do when your children make-believe, and then want to bring elements of the fantasy into their daily lives? ie. feeding their baby doll at the table, wearing their dinosaur costume and insisting that you address her as 'velociraptor' and wants to eat raw meat with her hands?

You get my drift ... I could go on. I do genuinely wonder how ardent realists approach these types of things with their children, and I do see a very real connection with the myth of Santa, or the Easter Bunny, or the fairies that come visit the bower you made in the garden. My eldest had imaginary babies for over a year when her auntie was dying, and those babies reflected much of what was happening around the process of death. When auntie went into the hospital, so did the babies. When auntie had a procedure, so did the babies. When auntie died, so did the babies.
I could've insisted that her babies weren't real, but it helped ease the difficult transition from life to death for her.

And I see that many of the childhood myths provide a similar balm to a very complex and sometimes scary world.

If I was constantly negating my children's strong imaginary impulses and their human need for make-believe, I think my grown children would have more of a problem with me always enforcing pedantic reason and being a magical nay sayer in the face of their very genuine -- and, of course, fleeting -- childhood beliefs.

Developmental psychologist and AP advocate Gordon Neufeld talks about children and anxiety, and uses the monsters-under-the-bed scenario.
He says that is doesn't matter at all that they are not, in fact, there.
You can try to reason, convince or cajole your child in the hope that they will realize the 'truth.' But until their pre-frontal cortexes are more developed and they can hold complex feelings and emotions in spite of strong impulses to the contrary, the monsters are real. Not coincidentally, this happens around the time most children 'grow out of' the Santa myth, and then can enjoy and participate in the creating it for the younger children. We take turns being enchanted by this kind of magic.

I'd argue that the same is true for many of the other imaginary facets that are so typical of early childhood.

I also want to mention that before my child was of the age to absorb Santa from the larger community, I was totally NOT going to do it for the same reasons so many others shared here. I changed my mind.
Like so many things with parenting, we all do whatever works for our unique families.
We don't do God or Jesus, or even heaven. We don't do the Easter Bunny, or the tooth fairy. We do Santa, on our own terms, and in a way that feels like a very good fit for our style of attachment parenting.
And as a writer and storyteller, I suppose it makes sense that I'd be the one championing magic realism and makebelieve as a way to help children grow up in a holistic way, with their sense of enchantment nicely honed, both as giver and receiver.

Alright, must go write the stuff I get paid for.
*Thanks so much for the conversation! It's a valuable one, and I do so very much appreciate hearing everyone's perspectives.
*


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

*What do you do about imaginary friends?*

It hasn't come up, but I would be willing to play along with an imaginary friend if it wasn't causing any real problem. (I wouldn't, for example, set out a separate plate of food for the imaginary friend and let it sit there going bad.)

However, I would never invent an imaginary friend for my child and tell him it was real.

*What do you do when your child puts a sign on your front door to keep out ghosts?*

Nothing, unless I need to explain it to someone who comes to the door.

*What do you do when you child sees something that isn't there and insists that they did?*

It depends very much on whether or not he is frightened of the thing. If he is, I put more effort into trying to convince him he was mistaken, because that can help to calm him. But if it's a fun thing that he's enjoying, I'll just say, "Oh? I didn't see that," and go about my business.

*What do you do about the afterlife?*

"Nobody knows exactly. It's a big mystery! We trust God to take good care of us after we die, but we won't know how it all works until it happens to us. Jesus said [paraphrased], 'In God's house are many rooms. When I die and go away from you, I will get your rooms ready for you.' Jesus said that at the end of the world, we'll all get back into our bodies and live again. God goes on forever, and Jesus said that we also will live forever, just in a different way. It will be interesting to find out what that is like, won't it?"

*What do you do about 'visits' from loved ones who have died?*

None of us have ever experienced this. We have read some ghost stories and talked about whether we think they could be true or not, and what else might be the explanation.

*What do you do when they ask about natural disasters? Murder?*

I explain the situation as best I can. My child demands more detailed explanations than most children I have known. Here are some examples:

What happened on September 11?

What happened to Martin Luther King, Jr.?

Why did people fight and break windows during the G-20 summit?

*What do you do when your child wants to be a 'real live prince' with a 'real live castle' when he grows up?*

"That sounds like fun. I look forward to visiting you."

*What do you do when they ask what happened to auntie's body when she was buried?*

"Her body will slowly turn into dirt, like compost, and help the plants grow. This happens slowly and smells bad, so we put the body in a hole underground. Usually human bodies are buried in a special park called a cemetery so that they won't get dug up by accident. Another way is to burn the body and turn it into ashes."

*What do you do when your children make-believe, and then want to bring elements of the fantasy into their daily lives? ie. feeding their baby doll at the table, wearing their dinosaur costume and insisting that you address her as 'velociraptor' and wants to eat raw meat with her hands?*

That's fine with me unless it becomes impractical--see answer to your first question. I would not let my little velociraptor eat raw meat; I would help her choose an acceptable food to pretend with, and if necessary I would explain that raw meat is unsafe because she is not really a velociraptor.

Your questions give me the impression that you're missing a central point in my approach: I don't want my child's life to be totally realistic and devoid of pretending and magical feelings. I am happy to pretend with him sometimes and happy to allow him to pretend even more of the time. However, I do not tell him things are true which I know to be untrue; if I am suggesting something for us to pretend about, I make it clear that we're pretending.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Okay, I'll play. I'm not a Santa nay-sayer, but I did not ever lie to my kids and say Santa is real.

Quote:

What do you do about imaginary friends?
I made sure they didn't interfere with real life friends. My kids didn't do imaginary friends too much, but once when dd1 was maybe 4, she insisted her invisible mousies were sitting on a swing and wouldn't let another child get on the swing. I told her the mousies had had their turn and she needed to let someone else have a turn now. But that's all the imaginary friends I really remember. My kids are highly creative and imaginative (budding authors and illustrators), but they were never really into imaginary friends very much.

What do you do when your child puts a sign on your front door to keep out ghosts?
My kids don't believe in ghosts.

What do you do when you child sees something that isn't there and insists that they did?

Doesn't really happen. Occasionally they used to pretend to see something or pretend that dustmotes are fairies.

What do you do about the afterlife?
We've talked about lots of different beliefs about the afterlife, but we are not religious. I do like the water cycle/raindrop analogy.

What do you do about 'visits' from loved ones who have died?
Never happens although I have lost both my parents and DH lost his dad and we also recently lost my first cousin as well as my mom.

What do you do when they ask about natural disasters? Murder?
We tell them about it. Told them about the typhoon in the Phillipines, Newtown, 9-11, Hurricane Katrina. We do what we can to help (make contributions, etc). My youngest was 2 when Hurricane Katrina hit and we did talk about it and donate toys and to the Red Cross, etc. I'm sure I wouldn't have told them about Newtown at that age, but dd2 was 9 last year and we did tell them because I didn't want them to hear it at school.

What do you do when your child wants to be a 'real live prince' with a 'real live castle' when he grows up?
Not my kids' thing again, but if they did I would say maybe they would marry a prince and become a princess that way or they could build their own castles. We might go visit a castle.

What do you do when they ask what happened to auntie's body when she was buried?
I tell them. There are several good kids' books about it. "Ten Good Things About Barney" is one. My kids are interested in decompsition. I was too as a kid. Buried a rabbit once in a friend's backyard and then dug it up 2 weeks later.

What do you do when your children make-believe, and then want to bring elements of the fantasy into their daily lives? ie. feeding their baby doll at the table, wearing their dinosaur costume and insisting that you address her as 'velociraptor' and wants to eat raw meat with her hands?

No raw meat!! I have always been happy for my kids to pretend. They haven't ever wanted to be called another name, but I would go along with that just like I would for any other person who wanted to be called by a nickname. I'm happy for them to pretend Santa is real, but just because they pretend doesn't mean I have to lie to them and agree that he is real. I never agreed that dd1 had actual REAL imaginary mousies, but I could go along with it. I don't agree with all the different religions in the world, but I'm not going to contradict someone who does, but neither am I going to profess to believe in their religion if I don't. They can have their beliefs and my kids can pretend whatever they want be it about Santa or invisible mice.

I have heard of parents that really make a huge deal out of "making Santa real" and jingling bells outside on Christmas eve and making reindeer footprints in the snow, etc., and really trying to convince their kids that Santa is real. That's too much for me and would feel like lying, but I'm fine with going along with it and doing stockings and all that. My kids are past the believing stage now, but they still love the trappings.

What I find interesting is the kids who continue to believe year after year. I have a friend who's bright 11 yr old boy believes. How does that happen when you go in any store and see displays labeled "great stocking stuffers", etc?


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks, @beanma and @EnviroBecca ... It's so fascinating to see what other mamas do!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 

However, I would never invent an imaginary friend for my child and tell him it was real.

This! I am happy to play-act with my kids and go along and suspend our disbelief and think about maybe there are fairies out there really, etc, but I can't get behind telling my kids that something is real that I don't believe is real. I am happy to discuss all sorts of possibilities. Dd1 has been studying Dark Matter and Dark Energy and there are a lot of really interesting possibilities to play with there, but I couldn't just tell her that a fairy lives under the roots of our maple tree and try to get her to believe that I was telling the truth. I could say, "Wouldn't it be cool if a fairy lived under the maple tree roots. Do you think it could?" But I couldn't say, "I saw a fairy. I swear! It's true." I could ask her if she thought Dark Energy could really be magic, though? 'Cause who knows?


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *beanma* 

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
> 
> However, I would never invent an imaginary friend for my child and tell him it was real.
> 
> This! I am happy to play-act with my kids and go along and suspend our disbelief and think about maybe there are fairies out there really, etc, but I can't get behind telling my kids that something is real that I don't believe is real. I am happy to discuss all sorts of possibilities. Dd1 has been studying Dark Matter and Dark Energy and there are a lot of really interesting possibilities to play with there, but I couldn't just tell her that a fairy lives under the roots of our maple tree and try to get her to believe that I was telling the truth. I could say, "Wouldn't it be cool if a fairy lived under the maple tree roots. Do you think it could?" But I couldn't say, "I saw a fairy. I swear! It's true." I could ask her if she thought Dark Energy could really be magic, though? 'Cause who knows?


Yes! I agree, which may seem odd. But we didn't tell our kids about Santa. Our eldest gleaned it from the outside world; storytime at the library, conversations at the park, decorations on the storefronts in our neighbourhood, the Christmas Fair in the local park, friends, family, grandparents, books, songs on the radio, questions about our families traditions, etc. Just like I didn't offer her fairies, either, but when she brought home a fairy bower that she'd made at an art class, we went along with it. This was when she was about three. Before that, we didn't have Santa at all, and it was quite the discussion between DP and I when we talked about whether or not we'd do the whole Santa thing at all. I didn't want to 'do' Santa, and she did. She convinced me, with the caveat that we'd do it our own way.


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## BK Mommy (Dec 26, 2010)

I don't think of Santa any different than Dora or other characters she likes. For us, it is a fun character we make part of our holidays. She knows people like to dress up as Santa too but still loves it! She just turned 3.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beanma*
> 
> Okay, I'll play. I'm not a Santa nay-sayer, but I did not ever lie to my kids and say Santa is real.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to add and not get to OT because this is about Santa but it stuck me some of the things being said about "imaginary" friends are really not at all helpful or accurate.

In some children "imaginary" friends are not what they appear to be on this thread.

They really take on a whole other meaning in some children. It is not about lying and they are not in any way like Santa or Dora, etc. If you are dealing with a child that uses (or needs to use might be a better way to think of this) an imaginary friend as an outlet - I would suggest this book - http://www.amazon.com/Imaginary-Companions-Children-Create-Them/dp/0195146298 For many children their imaginary friend does need to interact with real friends and family. I think many here don't quite get the understanding of what imaginary friends mean for some children, it's extremely involved and frankly not something you want to discourage, quite the opposite.


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## researchparent (Oct 14, 2013)

Our kids are still too young for my husband and I to have to deal with Santa directly, though we've neither confirmed nor denied his existence. When I was about 6 years old, I started to get suspicious that he wasn't real and asked my grandmother to tell me the truth. Her answer (which I will never forget) was that Santa lives in the hearts of all the parents and grandparents who love their kids and give them presents to make them happy on Christmas. Somehow I really liked that answer because it both seemed like a) not a lie, but b) still a little magical.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> I just wanted to add and not get to OT because this is about Santa but it stuck me some of the things being said about "imaginary" friends are really not at all helpful or accurate.
> 
> ...


If that is directed at me, I did not imply anything about imaginary friends at all. I said that my kids didn't do them very much, but the one time my dd1 was pretending to push some invisible mice on a swing at a friends house I did tell her she needed to let another real physical child have a turn. I would have done the same thing if she had been physically sitting in the swing herself. There was one swing. She needed to take turns. I did not imply anything about imaginary friends in general beyond that. I did not, and would not if we were still in that stage, let my child hog a swing or other toy through her invisible playmates at the expense of real life friends.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beanma*
> 
> If that is directed at me, I did not imply anything about imaginary friends at all. I said that my kids didn't do them very much, but the one time my dd1 was pretending to push some invisible mice on a swing at a friends house I did tell her she needed to let another real physical child have a turn. I would have done the same thing if she had been physically sitting in the swing herself. There was one swing. She needed to take turns. I did not imply anything about imaginary friends in general beyond that. I did not, and would not if we were still in that stage, let my child hog a swing or other toy through her invisible playmates at the expense of real life friends.


The statement * I made sure they didn't interfere with real life friends*. is not what one should be doing for a child that has an imaginary friend.

Pretending one time is not quite the same as a child that has one for years.

The point is an imaginary friend is not the same as believing in Santa, many do not approach it the same way and really the two are very different and should not be lumped together as it is the exact same.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

You know what, this thread is about Santa and we're just going to have to disagree about this. There is no way in H3%^ that I would have let my kid hog another kid's swing at the other kid's house because her imaginary friends were on it. No way.

ETA: And if I did let her monopolize the swing because her imaginary mice friends were on it that certainly would be interfering with real life friends. There is no situation I can imagine where I would choose to prioritize my child's imaginary friend's "comfort" over the feelings of a real life friend. I never said that I wouldn't acknowledge the imaginary friends or let them "interact" with other friends in family. In fact I said that I told dd1 that her mice had had a long enough turn and now she needed to give someone else a turn. I said that I wouldn't let them interfere. *Interference* and *interaction* are two very different things.

Quote:


> *interfere*:
> prevent (a process or activity) from continuing or being carried out properly.
> "a job would interfere with his studies"
> 
> ...


When I said I wouldn't let imaginary friends *interfere* with real life friends I meant *interfere* as in impede, obstruct, stand in the way of, etc. Maybe you're thinking of some other definition, but that's not what I meant. And I definitely stand by my original statement.

I'm sure Santa can be an imaginary friend to some kids, but I think he's just a story/myth to most.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> The point is an imaginary friend is not the same as believing in Santa, many do not approach it the same way and really the two are very different and should not be lumped together as it is the exact same.


I get what you're saying and why you want to caution any mis-information about an important part of childhood.

But, I think S&D's point was just to expand on the concept of fantasy and see where parents who don't do Santa for reasons of issues of trust and honesty draw the line in other parts of childhood.

As with all things of this nature, I think it really comes down to the child. Like S&D we were iffy on Santa when your oldest was young but followed her lead. I suspect that all of us on this thread are doing that too (those of us with kids old enough to follow). I have known of kids over the years who just weren't all that interested in Santa or who really needed to apply logic and reason to this idea. Of course those instincts need to be listened to. In our case, we gave our child hints on and off throughout the years and in doing so it was clear that she enjoyed the myth...so we kept it going.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> I get what you're saying and why you want to caution any mis-information about an important part of childhood.
> 
> ...


I see these as two totally separate issues when they get lumped together many see them as the same, they are not.

It's really not fantasy to many children either, it is much deeper, most do know the difference between reality and fantasy as well and still have imaginary friend(s). It manifest it self differently in all children but it is not as simply as saying it's related to how they interpret Santa. Many have numerous misconceptions and feel they are related - just pointing that out.

Imaginary friends are just that, not flesh humans you see in parades, at parties or even at the mall - Santa to many children, because it's a live the human being interacting with them, it takes on a whole different meaning, not to mention myth thrown in.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

It's definitely an interesting topic, serenbat. Perhaps worthy of it's own thread? I have lots of experience with imaginary friends. My daughter has had many, and I had more than my fair share as a child myself.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

And I'm not "lumping" imaginary friends in with Santa. I see it as far more nuanced than chucking all the nebulous aspects of the imagination into a heap. I do see it as a spectrum though, and both are on it, in my
mind. It makes sense to think of the bigger
picture rather than cherry pick one's
approach to the unseen -- and somewhat
tenuous -- aspects of imaginary life, be it intrinsic or extrinsic.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

I see imaginary friends as different because the child decides for themself that imaginary friends are real- the parents go along with their imagination play the same way that they go along with "tea parties" with no actual drink or food, drinking empty cups and complimenting the child on non-existent cookies. The child sets the rule for the imaginary friend, the parents go along with it. I also have never heard of parents going to extreme lengths to convince the child that the imaginary friend is real once the child is ready to let the imaginary friend go (if anything they start worrying about their kids continuing to have imaginary friends), but I DO know that some parents resist their children no longer believing in Santa Claus.

Santa is the opposite- the parents (and society as a whole) introduce the idea of Santa, go to lengths to convince the child, etc. Authority figures that the child should be able to trust explicity insist that Santa is real without making it clear that this is imaginary play. Even if the myth were more palatable, that part on its own rubs me the wrong way.

The tooth fairy and other such things are less intolerable for me because the myth actually isn't nearly so creepy. It still rubs me the wrong way, but it's not as strong a reaction as I have to Santa. Especially since apparently some parents have gone a bit wild with it compared to my childhood- $5 for a tooth? I got a quarter!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, if you think the myth is creepy -- I can totally see not going with it, for sure. The Santa myth in our house isn't a creep though, I don't think. He's a dude who has a sleigh driven by flying reindeer who brings gifts to kids who welcome him into their home.

Getting back to what S&D was getting at, in our lives we have a lot of myths from our heritage, culture, society (whatever you want to call it). Mermaids, fairies, gnomes, witches, ghosts, dragons, magicians.... I realize that some people think some of these things are real but I don't - no more than I believe Santa is real. And I go along with all of them, following my DC's lead. Santa is no different in this regard.

We did fairies full-on for a while. DC and I were in a head shop (of all places) and the front of the shop was like a little hippie store. This giant like, mystical looking man sold DC this crazy long story about these fairy coins he bought in Scandinavia that would welcome a fairy into a home if you built them one. DC was memorized and I got her the coins for her birthday. We camped in Big Sur and the kids all built fairy houses in the woods (the most wonderful little houses!!). They each put a magical coin in their house and waited for the morning. The next day they found that little fairies came and slept in their houses. Some even left behind things like a tiny copper cup or clay bowl. (thanks to me, obviously) We did this for 3 years. It was the cutest thing ever and my guess is the first time the fairies came was a childhood highlight for all the kids there.

For my DC "making it clear that this was imaginary play" was not the right call.

I share this because your child is still young. You may well end up with a pragmatist. I didn't. If your child shows you that he/she wants to believe in something like this, I would consider going along with it. Patti's story aside (the one of feeling betrayed by her parents), I think most attached parents are able to gauge whether a form of imaginary play is fitting for their kids. Not sharing this tradition or moral objections are one thing but outside of that it's really about following your kid's lead.

And trust me, if kids weren't buying in to the myths, we would be a crazy gnome family. But for some reason my DC wasn't especially moved by the cute little guys.










And one more aside... because we're atheists my DC has always phrased belief systems as very personal things. For us there is no "truth" when it comes to belief systems. I realize Santa is not a belief system in a spiritual way but I'm not sure my DC has found the lines between spirituality and myth and to be quite honest those lines can get fuzzy for me even still. So, our DC doesn't tend to phrase things like, "Are fairies real?" She will often ask if I believe in something or if groups believe in something.


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## Carson (May 21, 2005)

Curios because I am really struggling. If you don't do Santa, what do you say at all to your kid to explain? DS is 4 and we were ambushed by Santa at a preschool dinner tonight.







. Santa came ho ho-ing and I was just not even sure what to say. I whisked DS away, but he was distraught he couldn't go sit with Santa. And of course everyone is making a big deal.

I love the idea of letting your kid kind of reason it out, but I don't even know where to begin.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

My DD1 is 3.5yo. We tell her it's a fun pretending game. We don't try to shield her from Santa or stop her seeing him. She wanted a Santa photo this year so we did it as a family. When she asks questions we tell her the truth, as we try to do with everything.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Carson*
> 
> Curios because I am really struggling. If you don't do Santa, what do you say at all to your kid to explain? DS is 4 and we were ambushed by Santa at a preschool dinner tonight.
> 
> ...


We do Santa but I have a few friends who don't and like a PP said, I think they just use this time as an opportunity to talk about respect for different cultures and beliefs. DC hears me ask every single person who I speak with about Christmas traditions "if they 'do' Santa" before talking about it. I think that sort of thing goes a long way.

I am sorry for your experience though -- I didn't know that schools still did Christmas. All of my DC's school have done a "winter celebration" that's secular/ and tries to be culture neutral. If that were my DC's school I would gently suggest that celebrating Christmas in a presumably diverse school is questionable judgment.


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## Backroads (May 4, 2013)

The majority of people I've talked to on this have never felt betrayed or lied to if their parents did Santa. 'Course, that might just be a random sample.

Has anyone ever done a study on the emotional effects of those told about Santa?

(No intention of bashing those who don't do Santa because I do appreciate many of the rationales, just curious).


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

If I saw a person dressed up as Santa, I'd say, "oh there's a person dressed up as Santa". Even when my kids believed a little bit they never believed that the mall Santas or any party Santas were the "real" Santa. He's busy at the North Pole getting ready for Christmas Eve. I'd let my kid go visit a person dressed up as Santa. Mostly mine didn't want to (shy, didn't like to talk to strangers, especially not ones dressed up funny), but one year they wanted to, so I let them. We don't do the pictures with Santa thing, though.

It is interesting to me how different kids approach the problem of Santa. My nephew (now grown) at 4 years old very seriously asked my sister if Santa was real. She hedged around, not wanting to burst the bubble, and he got tears in his eyes, not because Santa might not be real, but because she wasn't answering him straight. He was always a very practical little guy and he really needed to know the truth. By contrast his younger sister fervently believed up until she was 10 or 11.

I really find it interesting that a friend's son in middle school (6th grade) still ardently believes. She posted the other day that she wasn't sure how to deal with it. She doesn't want to burst his bubble, but she doesn't want the kids at school to either. He's a bright kid. How can he not see all the signs and ads for "stocking stuffers" or notice all the references to "playing Santa", etc?


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

I wonder about magic shows. Do parents who so ardently uphold practical realism try to explain away the magic and point to the science and slight-of-hand, even while their child watches, slack-jawed with wonder? Are we worried about parents 'lying' about the source of the illusion?
As an adult, I'm still awed by skilled illusionists, and I like to be awed and not understand working mechanisms that make it possible.
Same with Cirque du Soleil. I'm awed by them, and I don't particularly want to know how they can do what they do.
Again, I do see this as related. Perhaps not in the way that *sillysapling* sees, with the whole 'creep' vibe.
But we don't play Santa up like that at all, in our house.
He doesn't actually have any more clout that the fairies that sometimes visit the fairy bower and leave a thank you note for whatever treasure our eldest left for them.

Oh! And I haven't mentioned yet that I never believed in Santa as a child. I had a very mean-spirited older brother who would repeated whisper in my infant ear that there was no Santa.
It was still fun to play along. Even was I was really young, I was happy to keep the myth going for kids my age and younger.

*Carson* ... I think it'd be great if you could talk to the preschool and let them know that not everyone (you, for example) does Santa and that it might be best to fall in line with current status quo and broaden their holiday celebrations. Did I interpret correctly that your DS 'couldn't' sit on his lap? Like, didn't want to? Or you didn't want him to? Or he was too overwhelmed and you set the rules to make him feel safe? I ask, because it could help the school to know that you feel strongly about this and expect them to do right by the diversity reflected in their school population.

*ICM* ... I *loved* your post about the fairy coins. It's so true that as a parent you do best by getting to know each of your children for who they are and what they need. And so true that folks can have the clearest of intentions when they have babies, but then find themselves reevaluating said intentions as the kids get older and grow into themselves and the parents start to build unique relationships with each one. I can think of all sort of ways that i have adjusted my thinking since actually having kids, which surprised me considering that I had such solidly held ideals beforehand. I thought I had a lot of it figured out before the trip even started -- cue grating gameshow buzzer sound -- yeah, not so much.

I think that's an especially valuable tenant of attachment parenting; coming to realize that you are parenting your own, unique children, in ways that suit them as individuals, and not even necessarily as siblings. And of course, your family values and belief system will heavily influence how you go about things as a parent, which is why so many of us have different approaches to such a common thing!


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> I wonder about magic shows. Do parents who so ardently uphold practical realism try to explain away the magic and point to the science and slight-of-hand, even while their child watches, slack-jawed with wonder? Are we worried about parents 'lying' about the source of the illusion?
> As an adult, I'm still awed by skilled illusionists, and I like to be awed and not understand working mechanisms that make it possible.
> ...


When I was very young I was interested in the illusion. I find it more interesting than the magic act itself. A lot of it depends on the child. Some kids want to continue believing the illusion, some want to learn how it works.

I think part of it is that my family has a history of the spiritual. Banshees wail when a loved one is in trouble, divination, ghosts, visits from a recently deceased loved one, things like that. I don't see the point of lying about something when there is legitimate "things beyond what we see" in our lives. And- to the person asking about the emotional effect of Santa- my dad never pushed the Santa myth. My dad has always honestly and without pressure presented his and his family's, friends' experiences as true to their experiences, never telling me that I had to experience the same thing or even necessarily believe it- and I believe him far more. My mom pushes the Santa myth even now, and I have a difficult time knowing when to believe her about the spiritual things she talks about because of it. My mother also tries to push religion on me, and has never been successful, which I do in part attribute to the pushing of the Santa myth. The realization that Santa is fake can plant seeds of doubt about the Christian God as well. If you want your children to question religion and reach their own conclusion- that may be a benefit. If you want your children to share your beliefs- it may not be.

I truly do not care if the majority do not share my experiences. They are still my experiences. My partner's are not super far off- they aren't attached to Santa, either and never were. My children are more likely to share traits with us than with strangers on the street. I see using the Santa myth to teach religious tolerance as a far better use.

If any of our kids ask to sit on a mall Santa's lap, if they ask us for presents from Santa, if they want to leave milk and cookies out for him (and carrots for the reindeer!), if they choose to believe in Santa- I'm fine with that. Religious tolerance within the family is as important as tolerance of others' religions, and I'd like my kids to know that if they don't share my beliefs- I will accept them for it and respect their beliefs. I'm not fine with pushing something I don't believe in. I'm not even fine with pushing what I do believe in! My beliefs are personal and if my kids' don't share them or have different beliefs, that's fine by me.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sillysapling*
> 
> My mom pushes the Santa myth even now, and I have a difficult time knowing when to believe her about the spiritual things she talks about because of it. My mother also tries to push religion on me, and has never been successful, which I do in part attribute to the pushing of the Santa myth. The realization that Santa is fake can plant seeds of doubt about the Christian God as well. If you want your children to question religion and reach their own conclusion- that may be a benefit. If you want your children to share your beliefs- it may not be.


Treading lightly because I can't speak for religious or spiritual people but I have had some friends who I think don't do these types of myths because there are other unknowables/issues of faith that they care deeply about instilling in their kids.

As someone who doesn't really have much interest in the metaphysical, there really isn't any need to not participate in fantasy to preserve my child's faith in believing what I say during times of questioning. I'm not attached to her belief or disbelief in anything.

I agree that Santa and other Christmas celebrations are a good way to discuss tolerance, diversity and etc. For us, we do that by talking about who celebrates what and, like I said up thread, we always ask first if friends "do Santa" or not, even if we know they're pretty mainstream Christian. I still think it's polite to not assume and I model that for my DC. DC knows our reasons for celebrating a Christian holiday even though we're not Christian.

I mean, the fact that Santa isn't celebrated in everyone's homes is a PRETTY good indication that most kids have a good understanding that this is a myth. I think that's another component for me when it comes to the whole honesty thing. I really, really think my DC was playing along from the beginning.


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## salr (Apr 14, 2008)

How can an intelligent older child still believe in Santa despite all the signs? They are smart enough to come up with possible explanations for how it "really works." Maybe the parents stuffed the stockings but the presents were really from Santa. Or the mall Santas were just fake ones but the real one is magical and lives at the north poll. Are all the people who wonder this aetheists? Because I would not mock or disrespect someone's religion, but privately I might wonder how such a smart person believes in that.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Starling & Diesel wrote:

Quote:


> I wonder about magic shows. Do parents who so ardently uphold practical realism try to explain away the magic and point to the science and slight-of-hand, even while their child watches, slack-jawed with wonder? Are we worried about parents 'lying' about the source of the illusion?
> As an adult, I'm still awed by skilled illusionists, and I like to be awed and not understand working mechanisms that make it possible.


My child's father and HIS father are magicians, as a hobby, and the family used to do a big Halloween production involving magic tricks and special effects. The last one was when my son was 10 months old. He sat on my lap watching rehearsals. When something impossible happened, he would say, "Ohhh!!!" and look to me for explanation. I would narrate what we saw, rather than what really happened: "She disappeared!" He saw people setting up effects and heard some discussion of how they worked, but at that age it's unclear how much it sank in. I did notice that he was pleased to see the items and people that disappeared, burned up, etc. restored for the next rehearsal and that after a few repetitions, he no longer showed concern over their fate.

A few months later, he was persistently picking up a battery and wanting to chew on it, so his father "made it disappear". Baby kept looking for it for a LONG time! Although he had "seen" it vanish, he knew that sort of thing could be done yet the object still existed somewhere, so he looked for it. His guesses about where it might be were not very logical, but he kept looking.

Once he could talk, he began analyzing every onstage trick he saw, and when he started watching TV he was disappointed to be told that most of the impossible things we see onscreen these days are done not by interesting trickery but by animation. He can't see something like The Nutcracker without talking about how do they do the mechanical dolls, turn the toy nutcracker into the prince, etc. ***BUT*** he has learned to respect that Mama does not know how all these tricks are done and would rather not hear Daddy explain it, and that there are other people who do not want to hear you speculate on how it's done because they want to see it as "magic" even though they know it's not. We talk about this attitude as a difference of opinion to be respected, not as if those people are dupes.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salr*
> 
> Are all the people who wonder this aetheists? Because I would not mock or disrespect someone's religion, but privately I might wonder how such a smart person believes in that.


I don't feel confused about why a kid would believe in Santa. I do think that for a lot of kids there is a certain level of cooperation for the sake of believing in the myth. Obviously it depends on the kid and the age of the kid. Because my kid is pretty willing to go along with fantasy (she currently believes in ghosts, at 12 and participates in Santa for the fun of it), I am interested in kids who question this stuff. I think it's kind of cool. I'd love to see a study on the belief in fantasy a later adult interests.

I do think it's pretty important to not call anyone's customs or beliefs stupid or the result of a gullible person. I will tell my DC if I think a belief system (or some moral thing that comes from that) feel wrong to me and why but in general I think humans be be pretty darned ethnocentric when it comes to thinking other people's beliefs are silly. I mean, all of them are silly if they are framed from the perspective of a lack of respect.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Backroads*
> 
> The majority of people I've talked to on this have never felt betrayed or lied to if their parents did Santa. 'Course, that might just be a random sample.
> 
> ...


I have only ever see this on here - NEVER in real life - frankly the complete opposite I find to be true!

I know several who feel their parents didn't do enough with the whole Santa thing and they tend to be the ones that do it overboard now for their children! I have never meet anyone who did not look at what their parents did as in anyway lying or betraying them, no one is devastated like what I read, everyone looks at is a great and wonderful part of what their parents and grandparents did to add to their childhood memories. I know no one that even links it with religion or connects the two, it's viewed as a very fun part of childhood and holds special meanings in the religious and atheists I know.

I do see with many new parents they live in this illusion of thought where they tend to think their children will hold their ardant view points when they are adults - in most cases they rebel the opposite and to the extreme.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salr*
> 
> * Are all the people who wonder this atheists? * Because I would not mock or disrespect someone's religion, but *privately I might wonder how such a smart person believes in that.*


Many could say the exact same about people who believe a for religious reasons.

IRL I find atheists enjoy the "Christmas season" the most vs "religious" people.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *serenbat*
> 
> IRL I find atheists enjoy the "Christmas season" the most vs "religious" people.


Most of the atheists I know in real life are quietly biding their time until malls and other shopping areas are "safe" to enter again without the hustle and fuss of the holidays.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Most of the atheists I know in real life are quietly biding their time until malls and other shopping areas are "safe" to enter again without the hustle and fuss of the holidays.


That's EVERYONE I know.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Most of the atheists I know in real life are quietly biding their time until malls and other shopping areas are "safe" to enter again without the hustle and fuss of the holidays.


Lots of us had bought year round (we were done weeks ago with the exception of things that only go on sale right before) &#8230;&#8230;.a side from some baking, we just relax this time of year and enjoy! So unlike others we know that are stressed out or depressed.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

That's the same for us, Serenbat. The vast majority of gifts that I give are hand-made. I do get a few things but our city has a lot of options for pleasant holiday shopping (craft markets and etc.). Also, for whatever reason most of the locally owned shops around us are still relatively mellow during the holidays. I said up thread that our family really does exchange a lot of gifts but it isn't "a lot" in terms of quantity - more like nice, quality stuff. That can be hard on the wallet (not for us since we make ours) but it isn't really a stressful shopping experience like what you read about on the news. Myself and my friends and family are also guilty of a bit of online shopping. Certainly complicated in terms of ethical shopping...but it sure is easy! I don't feel like this is a religious (or lack there of) divide. I'm sure Walmart on black Friday was filed with all kinds. Someone could stand outside and take a survey but I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salr*
> 
> How can an intelligent older child still believe in Santa despite all the signs? ...Are all the people who wonder this aetheists?


Ahhh, but belief in Santa is very different from religion, or do you know adults who truly believe in Santa still? Belief in a physical, magical being named Santa Claus who comes to people's houses on Christmas Eve and delivers gifts (as opposed to Santa, the spirit of Christmas, or St Nicholas) is something pretty much everyone grows out of. In contrast, plenty of adults are very dedicated to their various religions, yet I don't know of any adults who actually believe in a magic Santa. It's just not true.

I think that's what this whole thread is about - do you participate in the fantasy of Santa, even though we all, as adults, know that it's not true and how do you deal with that untruth/fantasy/magicalthinking with your kids.

I am surprised that a bright middle school child would still believe. He's got to be on the far end of the spectrum on that one. I can see it going through late elementary school, but I think by middle school most kids have figured it out.

I made a poll! http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1394454/how-long-did-you-and-yours-believe-in-santa


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## RStelle (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm glad so many of you are Santa -free, I grew up in a family that didn't do any of that, santa, easter bunny, ect, and I was the only kid in my town who didn't. Now I have met a few other families, but only a few. For me, I feel really strongly about it, I try to be honest with DD as much as I can, so I would never tell her that Santa was real. I have just told her he is someone some people like to pretend about at christmas. I personally think santa is more something the adults do for themselves than for the kids. Kids will love Christmas just as much without Santa, it is the adults that focus on it until the kids are convinced it's a big thing.

I have a question for everyone who doesn't do Santa, how do you deal with people talking to your kids as if santa is real? it has been happening a lot and is starting to really annoy me. Sometimes I feel like I have to be "in the closet" abut it because people get SOOOO upset at the idea that I could be depriving my kid of Santa, which is kinda ironic given my reason for being santa-free.


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## mommabear316 (Dec 17, 2013)

Well growing up we were told about Santa and had presents from Santa. I'm 27 now SNF my parents still haven't come out and said he's a myth. I don't think I remember ever actually believing in him for real but I loved the ides of him all the same. I loved the story of him and dreaming about the elves, beautiful north pile ect... Because of that I want to continue on with Santa. But I feel like it's wrong in a lot of ways. When I think about it on s larger picture I feel like there are so many other creative and beautiful things I could do with my daughter that is just as magical as sants , but wouldnt be based on just receiving ptesents.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


> I have a question for everyone who doesn't do Santa, how do you deal with people talking to your kids as if santa is real?


I just let it go and smile. Sometimes my son chooses to object, sometimes not. I never worried that he would be confused or misled by these people but that he would either think they were pretending or feel that they were condescending to him presuming he believed. (He has a keen sense of when people are talking down to him! Sometimes he thinks they are when I don't.) Occasionally we've been in a situation where an adult says to him, "Ooh, and what did Santa bring you this year?" and he kind of rolls his eyes and looks to me for help; my response then is, "We don't put our names on our stocking gifts, so you could say those are from Santa. Tell her what you got in your stocking."


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

As someone who does Santa and loves that tradition for our home - I'd like to say that I think it's ridiculous in this day-in-age to assume that families participate in this myth. I'm going to start taking note of whether people make those sorts of assumptions towards my DC and will point out to her why I think that's unfortunate.


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## CocoBird (Mar 15, 2013)

DW did Santa with our older girls, that was started before I came along so I didn't have a say in that. DD1 did not mind when she realized Santa wasn't real and was happy to "play Santa" for her little sister. DD2 was PISSED when she found out that Santa was not real. I think she was 9. She was FURIOUS with us for lying to her. The way her mind works is very literal. She has forgiven us now. I think the age kids are when you start doing Santa it is hard to predict how they will handle it when they find out it is pretend or symbolic.

This is the baby's first Xmas. We are not Christian but we celebrate Christmas because it is a family holiday (we visit extended family and celebrate with them--most of whom are Christian). I would like to celebrate Solstice, that's what I did before I joined the family, and I'd like to bring that in a little more. I do think we'll do Santa for the baby. I grew up with Santa and I LOVED believing in Santa. I would swear up and down that I believed in Santa (well, maybe not to classmates bc I didn't want to get teased more than I already did) all the way into my preteen years. Even after that (and even now) I don't like saying that I don't believe in Santa. LOL. I like to pretend to believe in Santa--my Santa was always the one from "Miracle on 34th St" and "Polar Express." I never was bothered when I realized that Santa was not real, but more a symbol of the Spirit of Giving. I think that is how I would present Santa if asked about him. Aside from Santa, we do the "Switch Witch" on Halloween (they trade half their candy for a useful gift) and the Tooth Fairy and the Ostara Bunny (the tales of Oestre and the bunny predate Easter). During Xmas we talk about family and the spirit of giving and also the winter solstice. The tooth fairy celebrates growing older. During Halloween we talk about our ancestors, but the kids also dress up and have fun with trick-or-treating and the Switch Witch is just another example of a friendly witch. During Ostara, we talk about springtime and renewal and read stories about Oestre and the bunny rabbit, or other Ostara tales. I encourage belief in magical things, and however my child believes or doesn't believe is okay with me. DD2 is so literal she does not believe in much that she can't see or can't be explained scientifically. I, however, have had Otherworldly experiences and firmly believe in magic and that *anything* is possible.


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## CocoBird (Mar 15, 2013)

I have to add--I do realize that "Miracle on 34th St." paints parents who don't do Santa as somewhat cold and strict. I want to say for the record, I *do not* think this is true! It is simply a childhood favorite of mine.  I was really willing to believe as a child and that Santa was a sweet, funny, compassionate, kind and magical old dude. I will never forget the scene when he is teaching the girl to make-believe she is a monkey!! So funny. But I have NO PROBLEM with people not doing Santa. I understand that viewpoint. For me, it is a tradition from my childhood I look back upon fondly, and would like to continue for my little one.


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## RobynHeud (Aug 25, 2011)

My husband was really reluctant to do the whole Santa Claus thing. I think a big part of it was that he wanted the children to be aware that we were doing this for them, not some mystical being. I personally don't ever remember believing in Santa Claus, but I do remember being about 4 yo and reading a gift tag that said "from Santa" and realizing it was my mom's handwriting. When we were first married, before we had kids, we talked about how we weren't going to teach the kids about Santa, but he is everywhere, and starting around last year, when our oldest was 3, I found myself wanting to talk to him about Santa. I found a great blog post which summed up how I feel about the whole thing. For now, we emphasize the religious part of the holiday, and Santa is a part of it, but simply as someone who loves Christmas and the Christ child so much that he spends all year making presents for all the children of the world and then delivers them Christmas Eve to spread the joy.

http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2013/12/i-do-not-feel-like-im-lying.html


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## lonicera (Dec 2, 2013)

We never talked about Santa, but our 5 year old daughter hears about him from other children.... this year asked us again and again if he were real, and how could he possibly get all the way to our house from the North Pole in one night, (we have lots of experience driving to far away family....) and I simply say, "What do you think?"

That said, she saw "Santa" at a Christmas party recently and was enthralled - she's usually terrified of any adults. So I can't quite tell her he's not real, and crush her.... hopefully when she's old enough to sort it out, she'll be mature enough to sip the honey and throw away the sting, so to speak. (Be happy for the memories.)


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

We do it, but without the "naughty vs. nice" stuff and with Santa bringing each child *one* unwrapped gift. I didn't want to do it at all and this was the compromise with my partner. The funny thing is, it was better than I imagined and I'm actually happy we're "doing Santa".


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