# Update pg 10. Yay!-The ever-present CPS fears have materialized for us



## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

I have never posted in this forum, but most search results for CPS came up in this forum, so here is where I need to ask for advice.

I have 5 children. I stay at home with them/homeschool. I am an incredible advocate of Positive Parenting. We don't hit, "punish", or even yell if I can help it. I don't belittle the kids, use hurtful language, etc., etc. Not trying to brag, but literally everyone that knows us or observes my kids (doctors, dentists, other parents, old friends, etc) says they are exceptional kids and I'm the most patient parent they've even encountered (when I'm well).

That said, my housekeeping skills are not the best, especially when I'm not feeling well, like when I'm pregnant, or dealing with borderline chronic fatigue, as I am now. Therefore, I'm always dealing with a dread of CPS in the back of my brain.

I am back in college after my bachelor's 8 years ago, and the schedule is grueling, so I've not been getting enough sleep. Last week I was putting the baby down and fell asleep. My 4 year old was looking for me and, for reasons we can't figure, my 8 yr old told him I'd walked to the pool (at the leasing office of our complex). He walked alone to the pool. They found him outside the leasing office crying, couldn't remember his last name or where he lived, they called the police. They pulled the files for apartments and looked for his brother's and sister's names and found us. All this happened in a span of about 20 minutes. When they came to the door my mother answered (dh was at work). She thought he'd lain down with me, SURE that he would have NEVER done something like that (I'd have been equally sure of that until that day). She woke me up, I was immediately in shock, shaking and crying all the way to the office to pick him up, get a long VERY judgmental lecture from the leasing office manager, while still crying and got home to quickly clean as much as possible because the police would be there any minute. The police officer warned me she would have to pass this on to CPS. I cried all evening and night, terrified they were going to take my children for neglect, thinking of all the things that could have happened to my baby, etc.

Of course, once CPS is involved the leasing office has all sorts of tales to tell, about complaints from the neighbors (that we've NEVER heard from anyone) about my children playing in the van in the parking lot on a hot summer day (NO WAY! we keep it locked and I routinely tell them that pets and kids die in hot cars), or taking off and wandering the complex on other occasions (NO), the townhome was "disgusting", all blatantly false. There is NO way. This was a completely isolated, totally horrifying event.

Anyway, CPS officer came to the house first thing the next morning. I had read here to never let them in, so I tried to keep her out and stay strong. But she got very angry, said because there was a claim that the house was dirty she HAD to see it. If I didn't let her in she'd HAVE to get a warrant, and if I made her do that it wasn't going to be pretty. So, I caved, crying again, of course. She said the kids looked great, the house was far from disgusting, and the kids gave all the right answers to her questions. No, we never spank them or hit them, no we don't get drunk or use drugs, Yes they feel safe talking to us, etc. She saw no reason for concern, and loved that we'd already installed an alarm that goes off very loudly whenever the door is opened. However, she then ties a few strings.

"While the house certainly isn't disgusting, or even very cluttered for having 5 kids, it isn't really all that clean, either." She asked if I'd like a referral to a local program through some non-gov't group that will come out once a month (or week, can't remember) and help me develop a schedule for cleaning with little ones, etc. She kept stressing that she has no part in it, totally voluntary, etc. Perfectly willing to take all the help anyone is willing to offer, because I do have a lot of children/responsibilities, and because she was not involved, and because I didn't know how it would look if I declined, I said yes. Then she tells me that they send her a report after every visit, "but because the file is closed she won't even look at it, just put it in the file."

Now, on the surface, this seems harmless, but I'm still terrified of CPS. I've now got one half-strike against me. What if they send a bad report? What if I make some kind of mistake again in the future and the reports say I wasn't doing a good enough job? Is this something I need to worry about? I don't want CPS in my life. I want them gone. Forever. Is there a graceful, non-black-mark way to retreat from this? Help.


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## Amatullah0 (Apr 7, 2009)

(((hugs)))

The only thing I can suggest (having been "referred" to similarly "scary" services myself) would be to (either at the first visit or scheduling phone call) to let them know that you've figured something else out to help you organize the house and that you won't be requiring their services.

And I'm not saying you have to lie to them. Creating a cleaning schedule, declutter the house, enlisting the kids to help you tidy the house, or getting the help from friends or family to watch your children while you tidy(or waking up a couple hours before the kids), or, if you can afford it, hiring a cleaning service can all help you to keep the house tidy. I know what its like. At most times, I would be terrified to even find out that a friend was coming over in 5 minutes, let alone the police who may be thinking that I am neglecting my children!

But it looks like you are in a good place as far as CPS is concerned. Breathe.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Easy for me or anyone else to say, but honestly, I would not worry. I worked in child welfare for years, and what happened is pretty much exactly what should happen/is supposed to happen. Complaint goes to CPS, they check it out, they determine that your kids are fine, *offer you resources to "strengthen" the family*, and close your case. I would not worry that they had offered you services. That is really a good thing. Their purpose in doing so is to offer families they see as "at risk" services to help parents continue raising their children in their own homes. I am not saying your kids are at risk, because you sound like a wonderful mom. But, they don't know you. They have a pretty good feeling that things are fine, or they would have kept your case open, yet they see that there might be areas in which they can help you, and so they are offering you that. Truly, it is not a bad thing and their intentions are not to spy on you or catch you slipping up. When the system works as it is supposed to, needs are identified within a family, and CPS works to help families meet those needs with the children in the home.

If you don't want to keep dealing with them, I would clean my house up as much as possible, maybe do the services you agreed to for a month, and then call up your social worker and tell her that while you appreciate the help, you really don't feel you need it. Invite her to come out again if she'd like and ask her to please close your case entirely, if she hasn't already.

Also, don't worry too much about this "strike" against you. I can't tell you how many "strikes" the average family who has their kids placed in foster care typically has. My guess just based on experience and no real stats, is around 10 reports of abuse and neglect. CPS fails all too often by not keeping children safe who are in terrible situations. It is rare that they make the wrong call in the direction of pulling kids out of homes who should be with their parents.

Also...you may want to consider moving at some point, just for your own sanity and peace of mind. Why on earth are they making false accusations about your kids being in a hot car, etc?!?! That would worry me more than CPS. Good luck mama.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Oh, we're SO moving. We were waiting out our lease (and our credit repair efforts) in April to buy a house. Now, we'll break our lease in order to buy a house. We were borderline on the credit, and I think when we pay off the ccs next week we'll be good to just go ahead and buy. And then we're SO gone! I HATE this place and all their crap. DH went to talk to them about what happened and they told him that he should get someone else to watch his kids. He was furious! He told me it made him so mad because I'm a really good mom (cried again because he's so sweet). They can take their overpriced rent, obscene privatley billed water bill, extra parking fees, garage fees, pet fees, satellite dish fee, etc. etc. and shove it.

Thing is, I think they're going to try to evict us. We get an eviction notice with 10 days to correct every time there is any minor infraction (we didn't pay our dish fee, for instance, because they NEVER TOLD US THERE WAS ONE until the eviction notice for non payment, 15 months after we moved in). Any lease violation is cause for eviction, and unattended children is a lease violation. They're horrible, so I fully expect them to pursue it. So, they may put a black mark on our credit and everything happen too fast for us to buy, but we're checking out rental houses, too. I WISH I cared so little about my credit that I could stiff them, but they'd probably sue us for $10.

Anyway, thanks for the reassurance. I really do hope this is not a way to trap me.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

It sounds like for a visit from CPS, it went as perfectly as you could have wanted. The worker saw right away that the complaints were groundless. She told you as much, complimented you on your great kids and your prompt response to the incident by installing the alarm, and then gave you a referral to an organization that will provide support you need. I don't see any reason for you to be terrified of CPS or to consider that they have any strikes against you.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Oh, we're SO moving. We were waiting out our lease (and our credit repair efforts) in April to buy a house. Now, we'll break our lease in order to buy a house. We were borderline on the credit, and I think when we pay off the ccs next week we'll be good to just go ahead and buy. And then we're SO gone! I HATE this place and all their crap. DH went to talk to them about what happened and they told him that he should get someone else to watch his kids. He was furious! He told me it made him so mad because I'm a really good mom (cried again because he's so sweet). They can take their overpriced rent, obscene privatley billed water bill, extra parking fees, garage fees, pet fees, satellite dish fee, etc. etc. and shove it.
> 
> ...


That sounds terrible . I really do not believe CPS is trying to trap you. Besides being a social worker myself, the majority of my friend pre-kids were/are social workers, and I have never known any colleague, co-worker, or friend try to "trap" a family or a parent by offering them services. Truly the main goal is child safety *within* the biological family home. I have seen some really wonderful and creative ideas offered to families who were truly struggling with a variety of stressors to help them continue to parent their children. I'd be shocked to find out that they are offering you services for any other reason that to help you with any stressors that could be impacting your family. (Again, NOT that a messy house is impacting your family, but they don't know you and they like to offer help before things get desperate).

As for breaking your lease, I don't know if we just got lucky, but DH and I broke our lease on a terrible rental property with a billion safety and other issues and our landlord took us to court and we essentially lost (had to pay 2 months rent but not the 6 months remaining in the lease in which we bailed). Anyhow, we have since bought two houses and two cars and it hasn''t ever come up on our credit report. Not to say it won't in your case, because I really don't know, but it might not. Also, it takes time for it to show up too, so you might be able to stick around until you buy a house and then break the lease. It is *not* easy for landlords to evict people either. The courts tend to rule more frequently in favor of tenants even in crazy situations...we have a few family members who are landlords and they are always complaining about how bad it is for them.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> That sounds terrible . I really do not believe CPS is trying to trap you. Besides being a social worker myself, the majority of my friend pre-kids were/are social workers, and I have never known any colleague, co-worker, or friend try to "trap" a family or a parent by offering them services. GOOD!
> 
> ...


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Even as wary as I am about CPS, having been on the wrong side of a false allegation and a really terrible case worker, I would simply accept the offer of help, keep in contact and ask them to close things finally for you in a month or so. It sounds like they looked and saw what they needed to and everything came out perfectly for you. (When they WANT to find something, they will. Even if it's manufactured, sadly. However, most caseworkers really are more interested in keeping kids with their parents than taking kids away from intact families. The power-hungry vindictive types are NOT the norm, though they do sometimes exist.)


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

I just got a call from the worker. "After talking to the leasing office"







"and the length of time the said he was in their office, 45 minutes" 20 minutes, tops, if I fell asleep the second I went upstairs, "the case will have to stay open for 3 months with weekly visits." I started shaking again as soon as I picked up the phone, and crying as soon as I put it down. I DON"T WANT THEM IN OUR LIVES! I'm stuck. And with hoping to move in a month or so it's going to be a disaster in here! Does anybody know if it's a scheduled visit or if they just show up? She's sending it to "an ongoing worker", so I'm up in the air on the attitude of the new person. I'm so tired of being scared.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

You are living my worst nightmare.

I have a hard time keeping up with the house. I worry all the time that someone will find fault with our semi-crunchy lifestyle and report us and the messy house will get us in trouble. Then if anyone digs a little deeper they will see some of the unconventional choices we have made and we will be in the same boat.

I've had at least 2 night time scares, where I was in the bath and DH was on duty. When I was ready to be on duty again I asked where are the kids and he was like, Ahhh, in the living room? and the kids were really outside, once, down the street playing. This was when we lived in a neighborhood where my kids were the youngest and nobody else allowed their older kids to play outside because they felt it wasn't safe (it totally was safe!)

What really bothers me about your situation, is that your mother was there to watch over the kids while you nursed/napped, and made a mistake. How were you suppose to know something was wrong until you woke up? It's like getting in CPS trouble because your kid missed the bus home from school, nobody called you, and when you showed up at the school looking for him 45 minutes later the police had been called and you had been reported for not picking up you kid.

hang in there OP. Get a lawyer, cooperate with CPS the best you can and get the heck out of that apartment complex as soon as possible.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Unfortunately it's also my worst nightmare. Well, them actually TAKING the kids or losing them any other way, but still. I called a lawyer. He said I basically have to just take it (which I already knew), be my polite self, and try not to let the door hit them on the butt at the end of the 3 months. Also said, though, that if they start being really critical, or extend the "probationary" period to call him back. So, guess I'm just bending over and holding my breath for the next 3 months.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> I just got a call from the worker. "After talking to the leasing office"
> 
> ...


That sucks. Just remember though that they are really looking at very very basic things. They want to see that your kids don't have a billion unexplained bruises, that there aren't any glaring safety issues in your home, that you're not using drugs, and that your kids are generally well cared for. Well cared for is a loose term...and their standards are probably a *lot* lower than your standards. Well cared for means you're not starving them for 12 days while you buy beer and let piles of feces sit on your kitchen floor. Seriously. Relax, mama. You'll be okay... Before you know it this will just be a really bad memory.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

And by the way.... you should ask your lawyer if the 200% penalty for breaking your lease is even legal.... I haven't ever heard of that and am really wondering if that would stand up in court.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> And by the way.... you should ask your lawyer if the 200% penalty for breaking your lease is even legal.... I haven't ever heard of that and am really wondering if that would stand up in court.


I'd guess it would be legal.. 200% of rent, as the OP stated just means that they'd have to pay 2 month's rent (at least that's how I interpreted it). That seems pretty reasonable, actually. At a minimum it might mean them also retaining the deposit. That's standard for breaking a lease early.

OP - I know you are saying that every single thing has been taken out of context by the people of the apt. complex, but in your OP, you mentioned that you are a good, patient parent "when I am well". What does that mean? Do you sleep a lot? I know you mentioned having difficulty with housekeeping when you're pregnant. Are you pregnant now? If not, are you on medication for your fatigue that might make you sleepy, for example and not get housework done? These are all things that you could either discuss with your case worker, or that perhaps you really do need help with if you are not able to manage things. I don't think CPS is out to "get" people or to "trap" people. I'm looking at this from the outside and just from what you are saying, I don't see that CPS is overstepping their bounds. I wish you luck, but I also hope that you avail yourself to the help they're willing to give if you feel that you do need it. And if you don't need the help that they get out of your life asap. Stay strong.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

yikes mama!!!! what a nightmare.

it seems like your nosey neighbors have made it difficult for you.

i know this sounds hard to do but dont freak out over your babies being taken away.

they have to make a paper trail. if you get the help, clean out your house you wont have anything to fear.

i had the same issue with neighbors (not so aggressive though). they accused me of leaving my 3 year old home alone and sooo much more. this is the same person who was doing drugs in her apt and didnt want her landlord to know.

anyways we were in the process of moving and we did. went to a nicer place. with nicer neighbours who were truly supportive instead of rumors.

and cps came and closed their case. that was 8 years ago and we havent had any problems since then. but yes i have now been tagged by the system. so if anyone says anything, they will come out to check things out. however worker was v. nice and noted in the file that it was exh issue.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I'd guess it would be legal.. 200% of rent, as the OP stated just means that the'd have to pay an extra month's rent. That seems pretty reasonable, actually. At a minimum it might mean them also retaining the deposit. That's standard for breaking a lease early.


I think we read it differently now that you point that out. OP-- Does 200% of rent mean that if you have six months left on your lease that you have to pay them 12 months rent? (which is what I was thinking you meant when you said that which sounds like it might not be legal). Or, did you mean that you just have to pay one month of rent doubled and then you're out of the lease? That I am sure is legal...


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

No, no. Lease is up in Apr of 2012. If we leave now we pay the equivalent of 2 months rent. I think that's fine, just more than we wanted to pay. Luckily we have it, because usually we wouldn't.

No, my baby is 11 mo old and dh has had a vasectomy. I just meant that I didn't like the kind of angry parent I was last summer, hot and super irritable all the time. Since then I've found traditional foods and proper nutrition has made all the difference in my health and attitude. So, back then I would be patient and so on on my "good days". Now it's very infrequent that I have bad days. But, if I'm sick (once a year) or super tired because of the adrenal fatigue/too much to do, etc., I can be snippy. Others see this and STILL say that I'm more patient than they would have been, I just feel like I'm not at my best. That's all I meant. I'm not on anything but Armour Thyroid, so no worries about drugs or anything.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I'd guess it would be legal.. 200% of rent, as the OP stated just means that they'd have to pay 2 month's rent (at least that's how I interpreted it). That seems pretty reasonable, actually. At a minimum it might mean them also retaining the deposit. That's standard for breaking a lease early.
> 
> OP - I know you are saying that every single thing has been taken out of context by the people of the apt. complex, but in your OP, you mentioned that you are a good, patient parent "when I am well". What does that mean? Do you sleep a lot? I know you mentioned having difficulty with housekeeping when you're pregnant. Are you pregnant now? If not, are you on medication for your fatigue that might make you sleepy, for example and not get housework done? These are all things that you could either discuss with your case worker, or that perhaps you really do need help with if you are not able to manage things. I don't think CPS is out to "get" people or to "trap" people. I'm looking at this from the outside and just from what you are saying, I don't see that CPS is overstepping their bounds. I wish you luck, but I also hope that you avail yourself to the help they're willing to give if you feel that you do need it. And if you don't need the help that they get out of your life asap. Stay strong.


I highly doubt a 200% penalty is legal. Breach of contract is neutral in legal terms, and penalties for breach aren't legal. Keeping a deposit is legal b/c its a liquidated damages thing, but a penalty on top of that is generally not legal.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I highly doubt a 200% penalty is legal. Breach of contract is neutral in legal terms, and penalties for breach aren't legal. Keeping a deposit is legal b/c its a liquidated damages thing, but a penalty on top of that is generally not legal.


How do you figure that? They are breaking a contract. It's 2 months' rent. I don't think any small claims court would argue about that, but I don't know Michigan law, so who knows. It's not really the issue at hand, anyway.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I am so sorry. We dealt with them a few years ago for an unfounded claim that was proven wrong the second they got to my door. Luckily they were out of our lives in a few weeks, but I now live in fear. nothing like someone showing up to your door unannounced to inspect and accuse and tell you they can take your kids from you for even minor things.

As far as cleaning-your oldest two at least are old enough to help out more around the house and keep it "respectable" for CPS. Even if you have to pay them to keep it spotless until the CPS deal is over with. (((Hugs)))

As far as people saying they're just doing their jobs-I can see that sometimes. I have seen times when CPS rightfully did a great job. But I also had experience with my own case and that left me jaded about them. I was 100% pro-CPS before that. Having someone stick their nose in your house like they have the power of God and snooping in all of your stuff to find any possible evidence of anything at all-even things benign like cosleeping and homeschooling (for us) and then make it seem like you're a child abuser when there are really terrible evil parents out there who really shouldn't be in charge of children...it's just aggravating and humiliating and depressing.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> How do you figure that? They are breaking a contract. It's 2 months' rent. I don't think any small claims court would argue about that, but I don't know Michigan law, so who knows. It's not really the issue at hand, anyway.


It's what I was taught in law school. Certainly different states have different practices, but damages clauses are put in contracts very frequently, and when challenged are usually found unenforceable. Any dispute between a landlord and tenant would be in housing court btw, not small claims.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

OP, I wonder, does CPS have a court order allowing them to continue their investigation? Unless they've taken you to court I don't think you are required to allow them into your home.

BUT - if I were you, I would enlist all of your friends, and family, to help you get through this. See if you can get some people on a rotating babysitting schedule so that you can clean clean clean. With 5 kids there is sure to be some clutter, and some toys strewn about, but the more often you are sweeping, mopping, and making sure all the dishes are done and everything is spotless other than toys, the better you will fare.

Good luck! I had my own issues with CPS when my ex and his mom called them on me in an attempt to get custody. It was ridiculous, and he lost (thank god), and it sucked.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> It's what I was taught in law school. Certainly different states have different practices, but damages clauses are put in contracts very frequently, and when challenged are usually found unenforceable. Any dispute between a landlord and tenant would be in housing court btw, not small claims.


From personal experience, when our landlord took us to court, it was held in small claims court. Also, we ended up having to pay 2 months rent on top of losing our security deposit which was equal to a third month rent. We did not however have to pay out the remainder of the lease which was several more months.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Not trying to be strange, and I am so sorry to all of the mommas who are dealing with this.... but, why not just keep your house cleaner. *ducking and hiding head* I am not trying to stir up a pot, but if all of this really is scaring you to death isn't easier to clean then live in fear? I have three small kids, I homeschool, I teach online course, and we have two boxers and a cat... my house is mostly clean. At any moment there are dishes in the sick from lunch that I didn't have time to load into the dishwasher, etc... but NOTHING that would ever make me think about CPS! Also, we are all talking about a large sum of money to move. Instead of that, why not hire a cleaning lady to come twice a month instead?

Seriously, not trying to offend anyone, but let's log onto fly lady and get in gear! LOL!


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Landover*
> 
> Not trying to be strange, and I am so sorry to all of the mommas who are dealing with this.... but, why not just keep your house cleaner. *ducking and hiding head* I am not trying to stir up a pot, but if all of this really is scaring you to death isn't easier to clean then live in fear? I have three small kids, I homeschool, I teach online course, and we have two boxers and a cat... my house is mostly clean. At any moment there are dishes in the sick from lunch that I didn't have time to load into the dishwasher, etc... but NOTHING that would ever make me think about CPS! Also, we are all talking about a large sum of money to move. Instead of that, why not hire a cleaning lady to come twice a month instead?
> 
> Seriously, not trying to offend anyone, but let's log onto fly lady and get in gear! LOL!


This was the point I reached after someone tried to make a false allegation against me. However, you can't assume that clean will be seen as clean. The initial report against me was completely fabricated by a caseworker on a power trip. When I saw the road she was trying to go down, I contacted the police to have them document everything while she was still there as well- and that is the ONLY thing that saved my butt.

In my case, we're not talking stretching the truth, she outright LIED through her teeth.

1. There were animal feces all over the house. She took a picture made to look like a pile of animal poo on a couch. It was a plastic hamburger from my child's play kitchen.

2. DD was playing with drugs in the upstairs hallway. First, there were no drugs in the house, second, she spilled out a box of baking soda I kept in the upstairs bath and directed DD to play with it.

3. Filthy laundry was piled all over the house. She took a photo to demonstrate this, when it was zoomed out, you could see that she'd taken a picture of a load of laundry in the dryer. She zoomed in on JUST the laundry and stated that it was piled all over the house.

4. DD was filthy and covered with lice. Nope, she did have some powder in her hair (remember, the caseworker had directed her to play in baking soda....) but I had to get a forensic examination the next day to disprove the statement about lice/filth.

In this instance, the complaint she had been told scared her, and she was creating reasons to take my daughter first and ask questions later. Obviously, it all came out ok but only because I'd had the presence of mind to stand up for myself and I had called the police to help me.

This caseworker also tried to tell me that if I didn't sign papers agreeing with what she found she would terminate my rights that moment. If I hadn't known better, that might have scared me into signing something that would have completely screwed my chances.

It was horrific and frightening, but very much an anomaly. This is not a matter of all caseworkers, or even some- it was a situation of a very warped woman who should not have had the job she did.

It took about 5 years to get past the terror of someone at the door. I still can't tolerate having anything out of place in my home, because someone might twist a bad day against us, but I do much better. I keep my house MOSTLY spotless for peace of mind. Once I got into the habit of it, it wasn't too hard, but it is daunting to manage before you have decluttered and gotten into a pattern of keeping things just so. At the moment, it's a bit of a mess as I am on my own and pregnant and today was a really sick/tired sort of day. There is a blanket on the couch, the blocks are out of their bin (and have been for about 10 minutes now) and I'm just getting around to asking DD to unload the dishwasher so I can wash the lunch dishes. For the most part though I simply don't allow messiness to happen in our house precisely for reasons like this. If something happens, it will always happen at the worst possible time.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

insidevoice, may I ask at what point you realized you needed to call the police? And did you dial 911 or a non-emergency number or what?


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I highly doubt a 200% penalty is legal. Breach of contract is neutral in legal terms, and penalties for breach aren't legal. Keeping a deposit is legal b/c its a liquidated damages thing, but a penalty on top of that is generally not legal.


Oh, they made sure to word it in the lease that it is NOT a penalty, but the reasonable costs for getting the apartment ready to rent again, or some other such nonsense. As if they don't have the same costs if we move out at the end of our lease.









kittywitty, yes my oldest 2 have been helping with cleaning since they were 4, and now together do as much work as I do. And my 4 yr old is now beginning, as well. He picks up toys and dries dishes. The big cleaning isn't that hard, it's the maintenance that is. Everyone loses their oomph after about a week and the backslide starts. Can't allow that now...

Last week when I was washing the cabinet doors from grody fingerprints I turned around, then turned immediately back around to the cabinets. Literally 1-2 seconds. dd had reached into the bag of baking soda and put 2 new hand prints on the door and a pile of it on the floor. That's honest-to-gosh how EVERY MINUTE of EVERY DAY is here. 1 step forward, 2 steps back with a 2 yr old and 1 yr old. I feel like I have quadruplet toddlers!

Plus, what's considered "appropriately clothed"? It is HARD to keep clothes on my 4 and 2 yr olds at all, and when the 4 yr old complies he's hotter than everyone else, so he'd happily wear shorts inside all year round, and never wear a shirt. Is that acceptable? It was to me, but I don't know about to big brother... Sigh...


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

When she started taking pictures of laundry INSIDE my dryer, I realized that something was wonky. I called the non-emergency number and a couple officers showed up within minutes. The officers called in two more officers as witnesses when they couldn't get through to her- and had one come in who specialized in documentation of crime scenes. I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't been able to obtain help through the police. I had tried to take pictures of her as she was 'documenting' but she took my camera and claimed she was keeping it to make sure there were no pornographic photos of DD on it.

It was also very disturbing that she kept trying to tell my daughter that she would never have to worry about being with her mean mommy again. She was never going to 'let Mommy do mean things to her'. She did opt to take DD with her when she left, and became very angry when an officer followed her and forced her to take her to the safe house instead of this woman's own home.

As I said, this was not a simple CPS investigation, it was an incredibly warped woman who should never have been in the position she was in. Sadly, because of the system, I had to watch her take my child and then I had to fight to get her back. (Which did happen rapidly. I agreed with this woman's boss to sign DD over to kinship care with my parents as the mess was sorted out- mostly to get her out of the immediate area. I had her back within less than 48 hours.) This woman kept working with CPS for over a year after this happened.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> When she started taking pictures of laundry INSIDE my dryer, I realized that something was wonky. I called the non-emergency number and a couple officers showed up within minutes. The officers called in two more officers as witnesses when they couldn't get through to her- and had one come in who specialized in documentation of crime scenes. I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't been able to obtain help through the police. I had tried to take pictures of her as she was 'documenting' but she took my camera and claimed she was keeping it to make sure there were no pornographic photos of DD on it.
> 
> ...


OMG!... OMG!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Last week when I was washing the cabinet doors from grody fingerprints I turned around, then turned immediately back around to the cabinets. Literally 1-2 seconds. dd had reached into the bag of baking soda and put 2 new hand prints on the door and a pile of it on the floor. That's honest-to-gosh how EVERY MINUTE of EVERY DAY is here. 1 step forward, 2 steps back with a 2 yr old and 1 yr old. I feel like I have quadruplet toddlers!
> 
> Plus, what's considered "appropriately clothed"? It is HARD to keep clothes on my 4 and 2 yr olds at all, and when the 4 yr old complies he's hotter than everyone else, so he'd happily wear shorts inside all year round, and never wear a shirt. Is that acceptable? It was to me, but I don't know about to big brother... Sigh...


The first paragraph, yeah, I only have ONE toddler and thats what my days are like. Yay! Do the best you can, enlist the neighbors, friends, family, people from church or school or wherever to help you as much as possible.

Appropriately clothed, well, don't worry about that. If the 4 & 2yo's don't like clothes, keep some clothes handy, and if she shows up act like they JUST took off their clothing and make a fuss about putting it back on. And really, as long as they aren't wearing shorts outside in the snow, who cares. My ds wears shorts in my apartment in the winter b/c its kept so ridiculously HOT in my building that even I don't wear many clothes inside - but we change to go outside b/c its COLD outside. Just be sure to have clothing on hand (I know you do), and offer it to them - its not worth the power struggle to force them to wear clothing, but you also don't want the social worker to think that you don't HAVE appropriate clothing, kwim?

Also, if you are worried about her lying about this stuff, keep a tape recorder handy. In most states its legal to tape record conversations, even if one party doesn't know about it (check the laws just to be sure), and you can tape record the visits.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I can't imagine how scary this is for you.

What sort of support community do you have? I know, for example, that if I called my sister and asked, she would come up and clean for a whole day, as would several friends. 2-4 adults cleaning all day would get my house from cluttered and a bit sticky to showplace worthy. (As did one person cleaning for 5 days -- bless my MIL for doing that when I was in the hospital for 5 days after dd was born). My sister deep cleaned dd's room in 5 hours last week.

Once you're clean, then you spend 20 minutes every day tidying, cleaning the sinks, etc. If you and your husband and your 2 older children each work 15-20 minutes a day, you'll be fine. Even your 4 year old could help. The key is to give the children very specific tasks. When my kids were 4 and 7, I made a 'chore bag' with things as specific as "pick up 20 things in the living room" (so the fact that we HAVE 20 things on the floor in the living room tells you what state we were sometimes in).

Do you have any place you could temporarily store 'stuff'? Your parents' garage? A friend's basement? One way to keep the house cleaner is to get rid of a lot of stuff. Less stuff = less stuff strewn around. If you could pack up a lot of your stuff and take it out, it would look better. Since you're moving, you might set yourself a goal of packing one box a day, and throwing out or donating 1/2 that amount of stuff.

Most of all, keep your cool. Try to refute the allegation that your son was out for 45 minutes.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Landover*
> 
> Not trying to be strange, and I am so sorry to all of the mommas who are dealing with this.... but, why not just keep your house cleaner. *ducking and hiding head* I am not trying to stir up a pot, but if all of this really is scaring you to death isn't easier to clean then live in fear? I have three small kids, I homeschool, I teach online course, and we have two boxers and a cat... my house is mostly clean. At any moment there are dishes in the sick from lunch that I didn't have time to load into the dishwasher, etc... but NOTHING that would ever make me think about CPS! Also, we are all talking about a large sum of money to move. Instead of that, why not hire a cleaning lady to come twice a month instead?
> 
> Seriously, not trying to offend anyone, but let's log onto fly lady and get in gear! LOL!


Hmm I think this is a little insensitive. The OP mentioned chronic fatigue & thyroid issues... I deal with this too, though maybe a bit more severe, and honestly I'm functionally disabled. Our house is currently semi-manageable because DH was laid off & spends a lot of time cleaning and helping me declutter, but it would be horrible if someone dropped by unexpectedly and if DH ever finds a job I don't know that I can keep the house in order on my own (I couldn't before) or afford to pay for someone to clean it. I don't know, maybe the OP _could_ keep things cleaner if she made it a priority, but the assumption that everyone can keep a clean house if they'd just log onto flylady is a bit... IDK, hard to hear I guess.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Landover*
> 
> Not trying to be strange, and I am so sorry to all of the mommas who are dealing with this.... but, why not just keep your house cleaner. *ducking and hiding head* I am not trying to stir up a pot, but if all of this really is scaring you to death isn't easier to clean then live in fear? I have three small kids, I homeschool, I teach online course, and we have two boxers and a cat... my house is mostly clean. At any moment there are dishes in the sick from lunch that I didn't have time to load into the dishwasher, etc... but NOTHING that would ever make me think about CPS! Also, we are all talking about a large sum of money to move. Instead of that, why not hire a cleaning lady to come twice a month instead?
> 
> Seriously, not trying to offend anyone, but let's log onto fly lady and get in gear! LOL!


The caseworker in the OP's story said her house ISN'T "even very cluttered for having 5 kids." Meaning, *the house was already CLEANER *than you would reasonably expect it to be. There is certainly no freakin' reason she needs to clean it any better than that! We're not talking about filth here, but clutter. Clutter means things like unsorted mail on the table, dishes in the sink waiting to be washed, spice jars left out of the spice rack, toys on the floor, maybe an errant candy wrapper, perhaps a few of the kids' garments didn't quite make it into the hamper... the kind of "mess" that's constantly being produced as a result of living in a house. I really can't imagine anyone keeping the house with five kids clutter-free 24 hours per day without 24 hours of full-time housekeeping, i.e. no less than three live-in maids.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Try to refute the allegation that your son was out for 45 minutes.


The only thing I can't really substantiate it, but I always look at the clock when I take the baby up, so I know if she's been down "long enough" when she wakes up. 11:03. I walked upstairs, peeked into ds's room to see him watching Thomas the Train. Saw he was being quiet, wouldn't wake up the baby, so I didn't disturb him to tell him where I was going (won't ever do that again). Took the baby in and fell asleep. Let's say it took me 2 minutes for all of that. 11:05. Then, if he ran down the stairs and out the door without talking to anyone and ran all the way to the office he could have gotten there in THE SHORTEST 10 minutes, more likely 15-20 (and he talked to people first, too). (he's 4 and not very strong. Takes over 20 minutes to walk there with him) Now it's 11:15 at the earliest. He was found by a neighbor outside the office and brought inside. Then the office says they had to pull files to find his siblings in order to find us and call. I took a pic of my caller id tonight. 11:28. I walked into the office while they had been on the phone with my husband for about 4 minutes, 11:34. I sat there, child in arms, LONG lecture from the manager and back home at 5 minutes 'til noon.

Does that sound like he was in the office unsupervised for 45 minutes?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Edited because I didn't want to get off track of the OP's thread by asking about irrelevant issues.

OP - my father has been a landlord for 25 years and they will and do (unfortunately) pursue different claims in small claims court. He has actually never lost a case, so be prepared that you may get sued if you try to just abandon the property without fulfilling the contract. Depending on the landlord they can be very persistent in getting their money.

Super-single mama - my father has won a few cases in small claims and yes, they enforced the contractual obligations of the tenants. I'm sorry to go against what you "learned in law school", but what really matters is the real world experience and this is what has actually happened. Asking for 2 months' rent for breaking a contract is not excessive.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

gabbyraja, since it's hard to substantiate how long, can you offer character references to the caseworker while your case is open? Where I'm coming from is this:

I've actually been on both sides of the fence, former family support worker but we had a (fortunately short lived ) Children's Aid (we're Canadian) investigation when the kids were small. Like you, we were homeschooling at the time (don't now), so no info from schools. We were in a housing cooperative, my wonderful DH was the stay at home parent. An unfriendly member of the cooperative claimed all three kids were left unattended outdoors for hours (very untrue, our 20 month old was never out of DH's sight, and the older two were, well, older, so at ages 4 and 5 they played outside in the gated back yard quite a lot and were checked on when DH was inside). There was also a complaint about the house being messy (And it was, somewhat. Our five year old was acting out a lot, there were special needs at play, and sometimes cleaning had to take a back burner). Anyhow, the case worker actually asked for character references to help her clear up if the allegations were unfounded. We used a good neighbour (not a best friend or anything, just someone honest) who was able to tell them that she was outside a lot with her toddlers, had never seen our young one unattended, and frequently heard my husband checking in through the window when he was busy with baby inside. The doctor (where we live contacting the family doctor is required during an investigation) also had good things to say, so that helped.

While enlisting whatever cleaning help you can, you may also want to bring up with the caseworker that with a two year old and a baby, your top priority is their care and supervision, and that you keep up with the cleaning as best you can when it is safe to do so. When I worked with parents who were gaining skills to regain custody of their kids after apprehension, they were taught to prioritize: 1)Children are safe and supervised. 2)Children have care and comfort (like, if your child is crying because she hurt her knee, you don't say,"Later, honey, I'm doing dishes", and yes, some people do these things) 3)Children are adequately stimulated (very small requirement, this is in line with at least talk to your child and don't leave them alone with the TV all day THEN you get into cleaning 4) Clutter is under control (This comes before cleaning because it overlaps with the number 1 requirement for safety. People can trip over clutter, it's a fire hazard, and it can block safe exits from the house), and especially the exits to the home must be unblocked. 5)Lastly cleaning, especially the kitchen and the bathroom because these areas can lead to infections and illnesses if they aren't maintained.

Be as clean as you can, and cooperate as much as possible, but if you have the odd bad day and the caseworker shows up, I would word it like, "My two year old has been so active, today! I've been really busy keeping up with him, so I'll have to finish this (whatever the cleaning project is) when he sleeps or when my husband gets home". It sounds like your home is reasonably clean, and better than they expected for the number of kids, so (if you can, I know it's scary!)instead of panicking if they come in and it's not as tidy a day, focus on framing it to show the reality (busy, dedicated mom of 5 who isn't a superhuman!)


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I am thinking all sorts of evil things about the leasing office......

In any event, I would call the leasing office's managers and report them for lying. I might even threaten to sue them for libel or slander. I would not be a happy camper and I would not let this slide without at minimum a complaint. Complaining to a governmental rental tribunal may also occur.

Here is a link to Michigan rental agreements and the law. Hopefully some of it useful. Did you sign a contract agreeing to the 200% (!!!!) cleaning fee? It seems very large to me, and it is fishy that only people who break the lease have to pay it.

http://www.michigantenants.org/resourcelib#eviction


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> The only thing I can't really substantiate it, but I always look at the clock when I take the baby up, so I know if she's been down "long enough" when she wakes up. 11:03. I walked upstairs, peeked into ds's room to see him watching Thomas the Train. Saw he was being quiet, wouldn't wake up the baby, so I didn't disturb him to tell him where I was going (won't ever do that again). Took the baby in and fell asleep. Let's say it took me 2 minutes for all of that. 11:05. Then, if he ran down the stairs and out the door without talking to anyone and ran all the way to the office he could have gotten there in THE SHORTEST 10 minutes, more likely 15-20 (and he talked to people first, too). (he's 4 and not very strong. Takes over 20 minutes to walk there with him) Now it's 11:15 at the earliest. He was found by a neighbor outside the office and brought inside. Then the office says they had to pull files to find his siblings in order to find us and call. I took a pic of my caller id tonight. 11:28. I walked into the office while they had been on the phone with my husband for about 4 minutes, 11:34. I sat there, child in arms, LONG lecture from the manager and back home at 5 minutes 'til noon.
> 
> Does that sound like he was in the office unsupervised for 45 minutes?


CPS has to CYA too (you know, cover their booty so that if there is a dangerous situation, that they have offered appropriate services), which is probably why they reopened your case, since obviously the caseworker wasn't concerned enough to keep it open in the first place. Practically every time a CPS case is in the media with a terrible outcome (ie. child killed by parents/foster parents), there was prior CPS involvement and the social worker dropped the ball on monitoring the family and offering them appropriate services. Some counties are bigger into the CYA game than others, and it sounds like your county might be one of them. That does not mean they are more likely to take your kids from you. It just means they are more concerned about making sure there is not an issue going on.

In terms of supervision, I would go buy some of those door knob covers that keep kids from getting out, and duct tape them together so your kids can't break them open. If that doesn't work, stores sell little alarms you can screw into the top of the door. That should make your worker happy. As far as clothes, social workers are parents too. My three year old rarely has clothes on. Most kids go through that, and most social workers know that. As long as you have clean clothes in your home for your child, that should not be an issue.

Insidevoice's story is awful (and I am really sorry that happened to you IV), but that sort of thing is extremely extremely rare. The fact that your worker closed your case initially is a very strong indication that she is not some nut on a power trip. Re-opening your case is very likely her just covering her bases for the "what-ifs". Remember she doesn't know you and doesn't know your leasing office is lying. All she knows is that if something happens to your kids, she's going to be screwed. If she keeps your case open for three months and the ongoing worker can document that there is nothing wild going on in your home, they can close the case and say they did their job, which they will have. Were you to turn out to be one of the families who really was neglecting and abusing their kids (and I know you are definitely not), and something happened to your kids, they would at least have documentation that they did what they could. Breathe, mama, breathe. Your worker sounds really reasonable. I think this will all be behindy you soon.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

200% of the rent=2 months rent, its written into the lease and it stands up in court. Its not considered breaking the lease though, its an early termination option.


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## kayleesmom (Dec 16, 2004)

couldnt read and not send along hugs. we have broken lease before and they made us pay the 3 months left on the lease. but we were able to do payments. good luck.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Insidevoice's story is awful (and I am really sorry that happened to you IV), but that sort of thing is extremely extremely rare. The fact that your worker closed your case initially is a very strong indication that she is not some nut on a power trip. Re-opening your case is very likely her just covering her bases for the "what-ifs". Remember she doesn't know you and doesn't know your leasing office is lying. All she knows is that if something happens to your kids, she's going to be screwed. If she keeps your case open for three months and the ongoing worker can document that there is nothing wild going on in your home, they can close the case and say they did their job, which they will have. Were you to turn out to be one of the families who really was neglecting and abusing their kids (and I know you are definitely not), and something happened to your kids, they would at least have documentation that they did what they could. Breathe, mama, breathe. Your worker sounds really reasonable. I think this will all be behindy you soon.


I absolutely agree with this. It really does sound likt the person you are working with is being very reasonable. I have a great deal of anger around a system that doesn't have as many checks and balances for situations like I was in as I feel it should, but then, you can't plan for someone being truly insane as happened in my case. Still, I did ultimately 'win' and I did jump through any hoop asked of me to do so. The vast majority of people who go into working for CPS aren't power-hungry judgmental monsters. They really just want to keep kids safe and get as frustrated by all the red tape as anyone else.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Does anyone have ideas for me on how to reduce the stress on the kids? Obviously the old standby of keeping their routine as normal as possible and give them lots of love, like when having a new baby. But, they're terrified that CPS is going to take them away. My 8 yr old is having nightmares after months nightmare-free. My 9 yr old is scared. My 4 yr old is in our bed every night, and asks about CPS, and doesn't want them to come here. I can't lie to them and tell them there's no way that will happen. If it did, and I'd lied, they would be devastated. And when they ask WHY we're making them keep clothes on all the time, or whatever, I have to be honest and say because CPS makes us or whatever.

So, I can tell them that we're doing everything we can to make sure it doesn't. Those are words. But, I'm now able to spend less leisure/fun time with them because I'm cleaning, and looking for a house, and working on credit and a mortgage, etc. I can't take them to the park every day, can't spend time with them outside (I won't allow any of them to go outside at all w/o a parent anymore. Not even to take the garbage to the dumpster. Just not worth giving the leasing office more ammo), can't just sit and watch a movie. The joy seems to be missing and there's a lot of fear.

I'm feeding them good foods, supplementing their zinc and magnesium,keeping routines as normal as I can, and just allowing them to talk about it, or sleep in my bed, or whatever they seem to need, and taking it easy on them when they act out. We are all afraid...


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

You have to be the reassuring Supermom now. You have to tell them that sometimes that CAN happen, but that when they came by, they saw that the kids were safe, and now they just need to stop by to make sure everything is still ok.

Yes, cleaning has to happen, but they still do need to have fun, and it's up to you to make that a priority as well. The cleaning is easy enough to do- even with several kids. Buckle down for a few days and deep clean/purge everything, then just get back to normal routines with that. Looking for houses can be time consuming, but you can do it without giving up everything fun.

Take the kids out in the yard, and make yourself visible when you do. Don't demonize CPS to the kids, instead, emphasize that their job is to keep kids safe, and reassure them that no matter what did happen, you would do anything you needed to do to make sure that they would be with you, and that you are working WITH CPS to keep them safe because ultimately that is also your job. It sounds like you are projecting your fears onto the kids, and while that's totally normal and understandable, you can't continue to do so. You need to make it very 'life as usual' with a focus on their understanding that they need to be safe. As long as you see CPS in an adversarial light, they will as well. As long as you project fear, they will feel fear. I would not expect kids that age to connect the dots of 'CPS visit might meat we are taken away' without their having heard it from Mom and Dad.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

IDK how much you've told your kids or how much they understand, but I would say as little as possible about it all. Don't make it into a big deal (even though it is, to you, b/c you know what COULD have happened if circumstances had been different). Just tell them that CPS visits to make sure they're safe. Which is true. Be as nonchalant as you can about it, and don't scurry around, making sure every crumb is wiped up and snapping that you can't look/play/do whatever b/c you have to keep the house clean. You don't. Really. As long as the trash is out and the dishes are only piled high enough for a full day's worth, you're fine even for a drop-in. Relax. Do your mortgage and house research after they've gone to bed. Pop some popcorn, watch a movie together, and have some fun.

Even if you need to do a big declutter, let them know that it's b/c you're moving, not b/c of CPS. Try to keep things on an even keel, if you can. You'll all feel much better!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

pp have given you excellent advice. but the deed is done and your kids are scared.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> And when they ask WHY we're making them keep clothes on all the time, or whatever, I have to be honest and say because CPS makes us or whatever.
> 
> ...


do meditation, go for a walk - whatever it takes to take the fear out of you. YOU HAVE TO DO IT. there is no choice. because when you live in fear it completely overtakes you adn the answers might be staring at you right in the face adn you wont be able to see it.

ask for some support IRL. anyone. even if its a friend 2 states away with whom you can talk on the phone. you need help to ground yourself.

you can do this mama. you really can.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

I'd say that once you feel you have enough of the cleaning done to be comfortable, actually schedule at least a day a week that's just for hanging out with the kids outside and away from the house. It would be sanity time for all of you, and if you have them outside a lot after you get it clean, you'll have less to clean up later, anyway. Tidier and the kids will like it!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

OP I agree with Meemee, you are great to be worried about how your kids are reacting to all this, but you're also totally freaking out and your kids are both hearing it in what you are saying and also *feeling* it in how you are acting. I totally understand why this is so anxiety-inducing for you, but you would do yourself and your kids a favor to go back to the reality check of how CPS came to be involved, what your own worker is telling you about the concerns and why it's still open, but also what your worker is telling you about what you can do to get it closed and them away.

This is probably gonna sound like the whackiest, most awful idea ever to you, and all the "don't talk to CPS ever no matter what!" folks are gonna say "Don't do it!", but given your totally right on concern about your kids anxiety/fears about CPS, would you consider calling the CPS worker and asking her to talk to your kids and explain to them that it's only in serious, extreme situations that kids are removed and as far as she can tell, that's not what this is? I don't even know if your worker would consent to saying that, but my thinking of why it might be worth it to ask is this: she now represents this horrible possible (if unlikely) outcome, so it would probably mean a lot to your kids to hear HER explain why this will probably all be ok. Also, as a CPS worker (I do work for CPS), I know I would be impressed that a parent was that concerned about the impact of the situation on my kids, so it would be a plus for you in my book.

I have never heard of anyone doing this, and I totally understand if you think it sounds like too much potential trouble. But it crossed my mind so I wanted to share it as a possibility. No problem if you totally ignore it! 

Mostly though I *do* think that the best thing you can do for yourself, your kids and this situation is to get a handle on your anxiety and not stop living your life as you did just because this happened (other than the wise step of getting the alarm on the door and checking in with your mom about what she was thinking when she told your son you were at leasing office). However you've handled it when you've gotten overwhelmed before or your're not feeling well, do that, or if you didn't have a strategy, can you ask around for parent support groups or talk to your doctor about ways to build that support into your life so you have someone to talk to when you are losing it? That is so important.

And lastly, please please please make sure you talk to your 4 yr old and make sure they know that they didn't do anything wrong, that none of this is their fault, and that you understand why they went where they went (since they were told that's where you were). It's SO important that your 4 yr old not think that everyone is upset with them or they did something horribly wrong and now the family will be ruined. This wasn't the child's fault, so please make sure you've addressed it with him in case he's scared and feels responsible. And make sure his siblings aren't blaming him, which they could understandably be doing even if you haven't heard it. Just check in. If it's not an issue, cool, but it usually is in this kind of situation.

Best of luck momma!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Inside Voice, I just wanna say that is SO AWFUL what happened to you. I'm glad you realize how totally unusual that is. There are bad, willfully harmful workers out there, as there are in any field. It's just worse in CPS because they have the power to really mess up a situation. But those are such incredibly UNUSUAL situations... my heart falls apart every time I hear of someone knowingly doing something so awful. I'm just glad you were so wise and able to defend yourself, and that even though that crazy worker probably did a lot of harm in that year she was there, it's good that she's not doing it anymore.

Since this thread is about a different situation I won't ask more questions, I just find myself really curious re: how the whole situation began in your case and how this worker first approached you (i.e. whether she was crazy from step 1 or did it deteriorate over the course of the initital visit). If you don't mind sharing your story in a PM or something, I'd like to know because I always feel like I learn new things about what to look out for in workers' behaviors (I supervise CPS staff), even though I've never had a worker like this on my watch (and I'd know because I seek parental feedback all the time, sometimes after case closure if the parent is willing to be contacted).

But it's totally ok if you don't want to do that. Just wanted you to know how sorry I am that happened, and how glad I am that despite that horrific experience, you understand that the vast majority of times workers are hoping NOT to find anything serious enough that a child needs to be removed.

Take care!


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm actually going to respond to this here because I think it's important to know the how/why behind things like this. CPS shouldn't be demonized for actions of some people. I do think some changes need to be made, but how to effect those changes is a whole different question, because ultimately, we have to protect children.

In my case, my ex decided to use CPS as a weapon. He was angry that I had made the decision not to be in an unhealthy dynamic and that I wouldn't allow my daughter to grow up witnessing those behaviors. I do not know every complaint he lodged, I know some of it, but the initial complaint was never something I could actually see. Knowing my ex as I do, I'm sure that whatever he created was enough to scare anyone who cares about kids. I suspect that- at many levels, she really just wanted to make sure my daughter was safe, and her initial response was to err on the side of caution. She was unbalanced enough to take that too deeply into herself, and in that, I'm sure she thought she was protecting DD by creating a situation that meant she needed to be removed.

The first thing I knew of the complaint was this woman on my doorstep at about 8am while we were still in our pajamas. She was very much over the top from the get go, alternatively commenting on how pretty DD was and how well behaved, and in another moment attacking me and making odd accusations (she also claimed I appeared drug affected.) I let that initial comment slip past thinking, I probably did look out of it since I was JUST getting over a horrible flu. As I noticed how incredibly invasive she was, I knew there was something very wrong. When she started taking staged pictures I knew I needed immediate help. I had always been a very pro-cps, sure let them in and look around! sort of person. It snowballed very quickly, and sadly, whether for the right reasons or the wrong reasons, this woman had come in with her mind already made up that my DD was going to be removed.

She was irate when I contacted the police, and became quite angry with them when they tried to speak up on my behalf stating that they clearly didn't know what to look for. It was an unfortunate system, but in hindsight, I will say that with a great deal of luck, and because I had enough experience to know what was wrong with the whole situation, I was able to untangle the mess and DD is with me. Her father did eventually terminate his rights, but I had been granted sole physical/legal custody long before that happened. I worry about what would have happened if I had not been able to advocate for myself, or if I had not known how family courts work, had this woman's word been taken at face value, it would have been a terrible outcome for my daughter. It is because of the possibility of abuse that I think the system does need some change, but I realize that it is very rare for a child to be removed without cause, and even more uncommon for reunification not to be attempted if they are. I'm not sure you can design a system to be foolproof- certainly in my situation had a couple worker been present instead of one it would have helped. However, where does the money and the staffing for that to happen come from, more importantly, while two people are investigating me and protecting me from a situation like this, who is investigating cases where kids really are in danger?


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## nicolelynn (Aug 18, 2006)

I just read the OP post and don't have time to read the replies, but had to offer some assurance from the other end. I am a foster-adoptive parent.

We learned over and over in class that CPS can't just "take kids". When you wish they were allowed to they cant. Say Mom is strung out on drugs and has already had 7 kids taken by CPS, they can't automatically take a new baby from her unless the baby tests positive for drugs exposure at the hospital. A report of physical abuse can be filed and even with the childrens statements, it goes "unfounded" if there are no marks (our experience reporting their last foster home). Even if parents are proven to be on drugs, CPS has to prove abuse or neglect to remove children.

Soooo, they can't just take your kids, even if you have a pretty messy house. Unless they keep turning up at the Dr with horrible infections, injuries, malnutrition, etc.

Breathe, your family will be ok! *Hugs*


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## nicolelynn (Aug 18, 2006)

I just read the OP post and don't have time to read the replies, but had to offer some assurance from the other end. I am a foster-adoptive parent.

We learned over and over in class that CPS can't just "take kids". When you wish they were allowed to they cant. Say Mom is strung out on drugs and has already had 7 kids taken by CPS, they can't automatically take a new baby from her unless the baby tests positive for drugs exposure at the hospital. A report of physical abuse can be filed and even with the childrens statements, it goes "unfounded" if there are no marks (our experience reporting their last foster home). Even if parents are proven to be on drugs, CPS has to prove abuse or neglect to remove children.

Soooo, they can't just take your kids, even if you have a pretty messy house. Unless they keep turning up at the Dr with horrible infections, injuries, malnutrition, etc.

Breathe, your family will be ok! *Hugs*


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## nicolelynn (Aug 18, 2006)

Also, if it hasn't been said already...to empower yourself complain to the owner of the leasing company. Not just the leasing office, go as high as you can go. If they are a one stop shop then complain to the Better Business Bureau. They have no right to lecture/harass you! All they have the right to do is report to the authorities. Even "reports" from other tenants are not their responsibility to take sides and confront you about. The office manager should be directing them to CPS, not trying to play CPS themselves. Your kid is 8, not 1, and this happened once...not many times. Don't let them push you around.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nicolelynn*
> 
> I just read the OP post and don't have time to read the replies, but had to offer some assurance from the other end. I am a foster-adoptive parent.
> 
> ...


I do not work in any way with CPS - but I know much of this to be true.

My neighbour lost her kids to CPS about 6 months ago and this is what it took:

-12 people to call (12!) CPS concerned with the situation

-she had CPS visits for 6 months or so during which she did nothing they asked

-she had a psychotic episode in front of cops

It is possible you will get a horrible worker who tries to make a case out of nothing, but it is much more likely you will get a rational case worker and if you do as they ask within reason the case will be closed in short order.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I do not work in any way with CPS - but I know much of this to be true.
> 
> ...


This is a classic example of how CPS typically fails kids. This is what happens 999 times out of a 1000 when things don't go right...not the other way around. Thanks for a real life example.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

We've had no contact yet. No surprise visits, no phone calls. Life has almost returned to normal around here, other than the VERY clean house. I was up until 2 am again last night, just getting my homework done, then getting caught up on laundry, dishes, sweeping/mopping, starting some diapers... Then up at 6 with the baby and I'll do it all again today. But I'm not expected to fall asleep putting the baby to sleep. Ugh...

Dh works full time and does school full time. He really can't help more than he does. The kids do a lot, but they can't do it all. My mom can't be here all the time, either. And I really have no close friends. I don't have a support system, I'm everyone else's support system. I'm reading a book about the logistics of large families (in my "spare time" so I haven't gotten too far. Mostly on lunch break during class). Anyway, she talks about priorities, and how keeping the house clean just isn't really a priority most of the time. Spending time with kids is. I've got a lot to do, so when it comes down to my 10 minutes of "me time" it's a choice between sleep, a shower, more cleaning/tidying, or spending time with or reading to a child/children. Before it was choice number 4 more often than not (I honestly shower twice a week on a good week), but now it's always more cleaning. I hate it. I'm hoping when it's all over I can go back to not caring so much and spending more time on fun.

Really, what I'm most worried about is we do many of the alternative parenting things most parents here do. I know this tends to make you look a little more strange and less of a "good" parent to most. Cosleeping (though she's a yr now, so maybe not as much of a problem), non-vax, homeschool, extended bf, raw milk and fermented foods/drinks all over the kitchen, and the list goes on. The first worker didn't SEEM concerned, though she did ask what we were bottling (water kefir bottles were airing on the counter). But I don't know about the thoughts and preconceived notions of the new worker. Nothing I can do but hope now, right? Le sigh...


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I'm no expert, but I don't think they do surprise visits, and I wouldn't worry about keeping the house completely immaculate at all times. If a worker does drop in unannounced, and there's a load of laundry piled on the sofa, waiting to be folded, so what? They won't take your kids for that. If the sink is piled with dirty dishes from breakfast and lunch, no problem. Don't panic. It's when the sink is piled with dirty dishes from last week AND the entire kitchen counter is also piled high with the dirty dishes from the other days of the week that it could be an issue.

Please don't stress yourself out about this, and don't tell your kids, "I can't read to you b/c I have to clean for CPS!" Don't let your house become a pigsty, but you don't have to have it ready for Martha Stewart, either. The class we did last week (we are getting certified for foster care) focused on looking at the good in a picture v the "bad." It was a pic of a woman in her bathrobe, feet up on coffee table with an open box of pizza, bottles of soda, and paper plates. She's on the phone, the baby is crying in his playpen in the opposite corner, and a toddler is sleeping on the floor. You can see the kitchen trash overflowing in the doorway. The walls are missing plaster in places. What did we see? A mom in the room with her kids, family pics on the walls, food available and laundry in process.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Our surprise visit came yesterday, while I had dd#1 at the oral surgeon. Same woman, not a new one. My mom was babysitting, so I could concentrate on dd, and everyone was outside playing. She just checked the kids and asked about dd, then asked to peek inside because she needed to see the inside of the house. Then she came back with a coworker today, surprise again, because she didn't see dd yesterday and had to see her today. At least it was very low key and she didn't SAY anything was weird, but she did ask to see dd's wound from her surgery, and commented on the baby's fresh scrape on her face from falling over this morning. Sigh...


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I don't understand why she needed to see your DD's surgery sight. To make sure she really had surgery? To be sure it was healing well? This seems overly invasive to me. Can anyone speak to this?

And man, if a little kid with a scrape is something to comment on I'd be in trouble. My kids seem to constantly bump and scratch themselves. They are normal active kids.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbieB*
> 
> I don't understand why she needed to see your DD's surgery sight. To make sure she really had surgery? To be sure it was healing well? This seems overly invasive to me. Can anyone speak to this?
> 
> And man, if a little kid with a scrape is something to comment on I'd be in trouble. My kids seem to constantly bump and scratch themselves. They are normal active kids.


A little kid with a scrape is not going to get kids placed into foster care. She probably commented on it to see what OP's reaction and explanation would be. That is a social worker's job. We know the majority of cuts/scrapes/bruises are just part of being a kid, but it is her job to mention it and find out if OP says "oh she fell doing xyz" or something that doesn't make sense.

As for seeing the surgery sight... I would not worry about that either. It might seem a bit strange but she could have a billion reasons for looking.... wanted to make sure child actually had surgery, make sure it didn't look infected, make sure that it actually looked like a surgical sight and not a cover up for some sort of potential abuse, etc. Lots of reasons and none to worry if you ask me...


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Our surprise visit came yesterday, while I had dd#1 at the oral surgeon. Same woman, not a new one. My mom was babysitting, so I could concentrate on dd, and everyone was outside playing. She just checked the kids and asked about dd, then asked to peek inside because she needed to see the inside of the house. Then she came back with a coworker today, surprise again, because she didn't see dd yesterday and had to see her today. At least it was very low key and she didn't SAY anything was weird, but she did ask to see dd's wound from her surgery, and commented on the baby's fresh scrape on her face from falling over this morning. Sigh...


This sounds pretty consistent with my experience with ACS in my state. When the social worker did the surprise visit, ds was very young, but had already started walking (he walked at 8.5mo, the visit was when he was 11mo - so he was a very good walker by then, but clumsy still cause he was a baby), and so he had all these bruises on his legs from trying to climb on things, and from banging into stuff. The social worker asked about them, I told her what they were from, and then she witnessed ds's daredevil self trying to climb stuff and laughed. They're asking b/c they have to, they're looking for age and developmentally appropriate answers from you. For example, it wouldn't make sense for your baby to have gotten a scrape from climbing if they aren't mobile yet. She was just asking to make sure your answers made sense - they did, so you're fine.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I am so sorry for your trouble.

From now on, if you love your kids and want to keep them, your house is immaculate 24/7. That is it and that is all. Not "good enough." Not "no piles of feces." Donna Reed clean and tidy at all hours of the day and night. A social worker WILL drop in unannounced, repeatedly. Clean your place up, discard all clutter, and keep it looking perfect.

As to moving, that is something you can do, as soon as your worker has been assigned and you can tell them in advance that you are moving, give them the new address, and tell them why. Do not move before you have met with your worker in your current (immaculate!) home, and do not move out of the county.

Again, I am so very sorry that you are dealing with all this.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> I am so sorry for your trouble.
> 
> ...


Smithie, I am not trying to pick on you, really, but that is ridiculous. Her house does not have to be perfect and immaculate 24/7. How do you back up your claims that this is necessary? What first hand experience do you have with kids being yanked from a home because it wasn't perfect and immaculate 24/7? Show us where this is a requirement or where there has been a horrible outcome for not doing so.

All you are doing by saying that is causing stress and anxiety with zero reason to do so. I'm a social worker. My house is a huge mess right now. CPS would be more than welcome in my home at this very moment and I would have zero fear. My kid has been naked half the day and no dishes have been done since last night. Don't guilt people with the "if you love your kids..." xyz. Part of dealing with CPS and not having them take your kids is attending to their needs, not the need to have a spotless house.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Never mind. I know better than to comment on these threads. I don't know why I keep doing it.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Part of dealing with CPS and not having them take your kids is attending to their needs, not the need to have a spotless house."

I'm sure that's the kind of social worker you are. I'm sure those are the expectations you have.

But as I've just had a very different experience IRL, with the kinship placement my former foster child is now thriving in, I know for darn sure that not all workers are cut from your piece of cloth. I know what the initial placement worker perceived the situation to be in the kinfolks' house, I know what I saw when I went to the house and walked through the entire place except for the master bedroom, and I know that these happily married folks with squeaky-clean records believe that their housekeeping situation on the day they happened to be visited was a significant factor in not receiving the initial placement and going through months of anguish.

People have wildly varying standards of cleanliness, and social workers are people. When CPS is coming over to your house, it is prudent to adhere to the highest standard, because "unsanitary" is an entirely avoidable label.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> "Part of dealing with CPS and not having them take your kids is attending to their needs, not the need to have a spotless house."
> 
> ...


The majority of my friends are social workers. I know what kind of cloth most social workers are cut from. Either they care a lot about kids and try to do the right thing, or in some rare cases, they are overwhelmed, overworked, don't care and let kids sit in terrible conditions. I've yet to personally meet a social worker who had Martha Stewart standards for home care. You have seen a very tiny piece of what happens in child welfare as a foster parent, and tried to apply it to a situation that is completely different, in error.

What you are talking about are two separate things. There are *higher* standards for kinship placements, so yes, cleaning standards will be different per foster and kinship licensing requirements. Locks on bathroom doors, smoke detectors in bedrooms, etc. What is expected from a kinship placement is way different than what is expected for the parents in a CPS case. Not to mention, Smithie, that you have absolutely no clue what other factors were involved in the kinship placement being denied. No clue. Have you seen this family's references? Have you viewed their background checks? Do you have access to their own personal history of possible contact with CPS? Have you seen their medical reports as to any chronic conditions they may have that might impact kinship parenting? Have you sat an interviewed them for hours on end about everything from their own histories of trauma and abuse in their past (possibly unaddressed and affecting them today), to their attitudes towards discipline, to their finances, to their personal ability to handle children who have suffered trauma, to an assessment of the stability of their relationships, or anything else? No? Well then don't make an assumption that their placement was delayed because their house wasn't spotless. I highly doubt that was the factor.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Doubt it all you want. What I am trying to express is here is THEY do not doubt it. Nor do I. I suspect that I can't go into more detail without being accused of violating confidentiality, so suffice it to say that two people in careers that absolutely require squeaky-clean backgrounds, who find their living quarters criticized and are subsequently led on a several-month runaround, might reasonably conclude that it is prudent to keep things very, very tidy for as long as CPS is in their lives.

You're sitting on the other side of the desk, and I think that colors your perceptions a lot. No doubt my own perceptions are also colored, by dealing with a system that is chronically overextended and with workers who make some of the lowest wages in the country. But for an overextended person, it is very easy to make a snap judgement about a family from an initial impression of their living space, and have that judgement color the rest of your interactions with them. Sane people clean up to the best of their ability when they know that CPS is coming to the door.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

The comparison doesn't even make sense. Of course thereis going to be more scrutiny when looking at a family to choose to let these children live with. Children who have already been yanked from their home (for reasons much worse than a messy home, for sure). Children who have been through a lot of upheaval and a social worker who is caring enough to make sure they are placed appropriately, as to not have to be moved yet again in the near future.

A surprise visit to a family with an open case? It's understandable that the home will not be perfect. If she "loves the children enough" or whatever you said, Smithie, she will not stress them out over keeping the home immaculate at all times, especially since that would interfere with being a good, loving, interactive, attentive parent. Dishes in the sink, dirty laundry, toys not put away, etc. are not going to be reason to remove kids from their own home. It's a stupid misconception. Is your home perfect right now and every other minute? If anything, as a foster parent, your home should look better than someone like the OP's or someone who has never had any involvement with CPS.

As APToddlerMama has said time and time again, there are more social workers who, for reasons in their control or beyond their control, fail to remove kids from truly dangerous situations than their are social workers who remove kids without just cause. There's no reason to freak out and obsess over keeping a perfect home.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

We're going to have to disagree. In the situation that the OP has described, with neighbors making specific complaints about filth, I think zealous attention to cleanliness is a reasonable component of the keep-your-kids strategy that the OP is currently formulating. "Freaking out" is not necessary or useful, but cleaning up IS. OP has mentioned that she hopes to move soon. I know what my house looks like when I'm packing it up to move, and that kind of mess is a luxury that the OP can't afford right now. She's being watched and she has to be more careful about scrupulous tidiness than anybody generally is.

I'm sorry we got sidetracked with this, OP. I've said my piece and I'm done. Please let us know how things progress for you...


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

When I worked in as a family suppoert worker in a family resource centre, the social worker who was in charge of overseeing the family daycare homes said that she looked for clean but not over clean homes as a good sign. The reason why she didn't like the look of completely immaculate when there were preschool children being cared for in the home was that it was a sign that cleaning may be taking priority over supervising and caring for the children. I've met many parents who had their children apprehended for inadequate supervision, and the only parents I met where cleaning was a factor also had other factors. I agree that tidiness affects perception, and I have been on both sides of the fence (you can see my earlier post on this thread about my husband), I have to say that the social worker pretty easily understood that DH was of a slightly disorganized nature and dealing with three kids under five. As soon as it was apparent that the children were adequately supervised and cared for, the case was closed very quickly, and our home was "clean enough", not immaculate. Maybe there's the odd bad apple amongst social workers, just like nurses and teachers and any number of caring professions, but I really don't think the majority would disrupt the attachment relationship of a child for a somewhat messy house.


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## heatherdeg (Dec 30, 2003)

Since we know APToddlerMama's background I think it's worthy to note Smithie's qualifications on this matter. Smithie?

I was a foster parent for a number of years in an area where anything outside of mainstream was suspect and they pretty much looked for problems. I've had great workers and horrible workers (Lord knows they're out there). We've never had it quite as bad as Insidevoice, but we did have it bad enough that a caseworker supervisor had to be removed from her involvement in a case we were involved in (and it took a LONG. TIME.)

CPS is concerned with imminent danger. Any issue that involves the police is unquestionably considered an "imminent danger" situation. There is something called "minimum sufficient level of care" and your house was clean enough to meet that at the first meeting by her own standards and she said as much. Honestly, I'm not shocked they are monitoring for a while. They don't know you. They don't know the people in the leasing office. What happens if they blow it off and the leasing office people are right, kwim? While I wouldn't want to be in your position of walking on eggshells, I also wouldn't go overboard. They didn't open a case. They didn't require action from you. That's pretty huge. And your house was, already, "cleaner than she would've expected" with as many kids.

I'm not going to say "relax" because I know you can't. For my years of working with them and knowing the above, I wouldn't really be at ease, either. But don't panic excessively. Don't stress over the countless "what-ifs". If they were the kind of workers you really needed to worry about I suspect you'd be in a way different place at this point.

Hugs, mama.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I'm a foster parent who has had contact both with CPS (long story, but she thought it was a waste of time when she came out, and then we chatted about the foster system for an hour), and with my horrible private agency "investigator" after our foster/adoption worker made up alot of stuff about our home. That was awful and i was in a place of having to keep my house super spotless because they essentially were looking for a reason to yank my foster (soon to be adopted) kids.

If i were you, i'd try to maintain a certain level of cleanliness (which usually means walkways clear/safe, dishes done each day, counters fairly clear and nothing rotting etc, no piles of dirty diapers lying around, that sort of thing) and try hard not to worry too much.

One thing you might do (its a long thread and i cant remember if it was mentioned) is every few days or week take pictures of your living area and just document what it looks like. That way they cant come in and say it was one way but it wasnt like that. Other than that, i'd just go about your life and wait for this to pass. CPS has ALOT more to worry about then someone's housekeeping. Unless you happen to get a wackadoodle worker (which DOES happen but sounds like not in this case), you'll be fine.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> I'm a foster parent who has had contact both with CPS (long story, but she thought it was a waste of time when she came out, and then we chatted about the foster system for an hour), and with my horrible private agency "investigator" after our foster/adoption worker made up alot of stuff about our home. That was awful and i was in a place of having to keep my house super spotless because they essentially were looking for a reason to yank my foster (soon to be adopted) kids.
> 
> ...


Lol I love the bold/underlined wording. That is an accurate description of some workers, and made me giggle. Dealing with CPS is scary, and majorly anxiety inducing. However, adding to the fear that the kids know and pick up from you makes life much more difficult. Be honest with the kids, but tell them that these CPS workers are here to make sure that your family is safe and healthy and that Mom and Dad will take care of every thing else that the CPS lady needs from your family. We currently have an open CPS file, and it really sucks. I thought my 4 kids would be removed, as we had to go to the office and let them talk to the kids. It's scary, but the more fear and anxiety you have the more the kids will pick up FROM YOU  So frustrating.

I know that we (mothering members) have hashed and re-hashed the HSLDA group, not trying to debate the merit of them or the stance they take. However OP might consider contacting them to see if they can offer some advice or assistance regarding the CPS invasion of your life. I saw you are homeschooling, and they may help you even with out a membership. Again, not trying to argue HSLDA just trying to bring up ideas to give assistance to OP. My only other advice is to document document document. Keep a journal of what the kids eat, who fell and what the "injury" was, picture of the house daily? weekly as proof that you are keeping the house clean and the kids are being cared for.

OP- remember to take plenty of time to love and cuddle with your kids, as they are always your main focus. Take time to allow your mind to KNOW that you are A GREAT MAMA! A Great Wife/Partner, a Great Daughter and you deserve all the love and affection you hubby/partner and kids can give. Turn to each other in times of great stress, it will make you all stronger!


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

These threads can drive me crazy, so I have tried to stay out of it. But OP, I think you should be concerned at this point. The fact that they keep coming back is *not* a good sign. If it is at all possible, now is when I would be contacting an experienced cps lawyer. Not just any family law lawyer knows cps either, so be careful who you pick or a lot of money and time could be wasted.

Cleanliness had nothing to do with my case, so it's a bit of a different story. But I lost my daughter to cps over nothing. Nothing. I am not lying or hiding anything. I am not in any kind of denial. No abuse, neglect, the house was spotless, I am not addicted to anything, I don't have a criminal record, etc. She was removed because I had a history of bipolar disorder which they said left the potential for abuse or neglect...and apparently that is all that is needed to get a child removed from a home. I have been thoroughly psychologically tested twice since then, and it turns out I don't even have bi-polar or any other axis 1 disorder. I have nothing more than a mild case of anxiety. Has that information gotten me my daughter back any sooner? No. I have jumped through every hoop asked of me and they still refuse to give her back. The last excuse was because I might get post partum depression...despite the fact I have no history of it. So I just want to throw up when I read on here time and time again that this never happens. That that social workers never remove kids when they shouldn't. Or that they only remove kids when there is extreme abuse or neglect. Because it does happen. It did happen...to me and my daughter. And she is suffering greatly from it. No abuse or neglect was actually needed to remove her. Just the potential for it. She wants to come home sooo badly and she can't. For no good reason. All because of a social worker who had a bone to pick with me over not liking my "attitude" towards her (as she is in my home falsely accusing me of child abuse thanks to my ex-MIL).

OP, maybe you need intervention or maybe you don't. Not something that anyone can tell over the internet. I would keep your house spotless though despite what people here are telling you. Don't give them anything to use against you. Because they can and might use everything against you. I have even seen them lie and make stuff up when they don't have enough to use (they wrote in a report about me that I have tried to commit suicide 14 times, which is a huge lie that they completely made up They have no proof of anything like that and it didn't matter. If they say it, then it must be true). And they will all back each other up no matter what happens. Don't expect anyone to step up and defend you or save you, including the judge. Definitely get an experienced cps lawyer if you can. I would also be sweet as hell to any worker that shows up. Don't act at all paranoid or defensive. Legally I have the right to be as defensive as I want towards cps...but the law isn't always very relevant to them. I know that if I had been nicer to the one worker who started all of this, that I maybe wouldn't be in this position now. Do anything and everything you can that would appease a mainstream worker. I'm sure the social workers here on MDC are very nice workers. But they are not all of the workers out there. I have met enough bad apples to know that there are more of them than the people on MDC will ever admit to or agree with. You'll know you are in trouble if they start wanting you to sign any kind of plan. I wish you the best OP and feel free to pm me if you need any kind of support.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Oh and don't post anything on MDC or anywhere else that you wouldn't want read out loud in a courtroom. Previous MDC posts of mine were twisted, misinterpreted, and used against me in court. Like once I said that I wasn't parenting as well as I wanted to be (to me that meant that I was broke and feeling bad about not being able to pay for my daughters classes anymore). To them that meant that I sometimes debated harming my kids. The whole experience was very violating and humiliating. And if they have done it to me, I'm sure it's been done to others.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

A CPS caseworker will definately use dirty laundry, dirty dishes, and a messy(played in all day) home against you. They will learn you breastfeed a 4 year old, had a homebirth and homeschool and that will set off red flags in their minds. I have SEEN this happen and this mom will probably never get her children back(it's been a whole year without her kids now). Even the judge in court made fun of this mom for breastfeeding so long and "having babies at home". She talked down to the mom about accusing her husband of abusing her. I have seen also a doctor call CPS on an innocent mom, they took the 4 month old breastfeeding baby and THEN investigated. She was proclaimed innocent and did get her baby back but she had weaned by then. I'd be scared to death myself if CPS was involved in my life after what I have seen. There are some good ones, ok, but not from what I've seen around here.


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## heatherdeg (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yarngoddess*
> 
> I know that we (mothering members) have hashed and re-hashed the HSLDA group, not trying to debate the merit of them or the stance they take. However OP might consider contacting them to see if they can offer some advice or assistance regarding the CPS invasion of your life. I saw you are homeschooling, and they may help you even with out a membership. Again, not trying to argue HSLDA just trying to bring up ideas to give assistance to OP. My only other advice is to document document document. Keep a journal of what the kids eat, who fell and what the "injury" was, picture of the house daily? weekly as proof that you are keeping the house clean and the kids are being cared for.


HSLDA doesn't get involved in cases unless the issue is homeschooling. So being a homeschooling family and having CPS involved for reasons not related to homeschooling wouldn't be something they'd involve themselves in. Unless they've extended what they're getting into these days (my last membership ended in 2008 or 2009). They won't even take on cases of homeschooling families trying to advocate for Special Ed services with their local districts. I guess it doesn't hurt to call and ask, but I wouldn't bank on their help for something like this.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

At the other end of the caregiver spectrum, we had Senior Services called on us twice by home health aides we fired. Both calls were vindictive, and were complaining about mess that the aides themselves were either responsible for making or cleaning up or both.

In both cases, the worker came out, saw that my MIL was well dressed, well fed, and had someone actively taking care of her, and that the house she lived in was essentially clean, rolled their eyes that they'd been called out at all, and left. They find dementia patients half-clothed, sopping in their own wastes, starving, with bedsores... what they wanted to know was that she was clean, well-fed, and being properly cared for.

One of the reports said there were "feces on the floor". In that case, it was because we'd hired someone to house-sit for us, and she decided that when the cat missed the litterbox in the main house that she was "too good" to pick up the cat poop, and left it there all weekend. We got home, we took care of it...and it wasn't even in the same house that my MIL lived in! Another report said there was sticky stuff on the floor... because the aide spilled a soda and didn't clean it up. We'd fired her that day because she'd also flushed a Depends down the toilet and failed to give MIL proper care that day during her 3 hour shift.

My youngest is special needs, and we had early intervention (special needs therapy) out weekly or monthly for a long time, and the house varied from cluttered to really, really cluttered, and not once were we judged or called for it, even when she DID have injuries from falls.

My husband does family and criminal defense work as an attorney, and he gets frustrated about the CPS cases he sees. The ones that land in his lap tend to be cases where either CPS is overreacting or failing to react appropriately to an honestly bad situation. And the courts tend to rubberstamp whatever CPS says. The majority of cases do NOT land in his lap. I've done foster parenting (and my house wasn't spotless then either, but it was clean enough for the worker), and I can tell you that the kids I interacted with were in the system for a good reason.

They can, and will take babies at birth from parents who've had their rights terminated on children in the past. There was legislation passed in the 90's, I think, that lets them fast track newborns into adoption if older siblings have had rights terminated. That said, they're required to work with families extensively before terminating rights, and ultimately, if CPS asks you to jump through a hoop... I'd jump.

But I'd also be calling a lawyer before letting CPS into my house for that first contact. Threats of warrants are fine, but if they don't have one, they're not coming in. I'll bring my kids out onto the porch if they need to see them, but after talks with my husband, his preference is that I simply say, "I'm sorry, my husband is a defense attorney, and he's advised me that in the event that anyone from law enforcement, ever, wants to come into the house without a warrant, I'm not to let them in. I'm happy to bring the kids out for you to see, and if you want to come back with a warrant, I'm happy to cooperate then. I'm sure you understand."

It was stressful for weeks after every senior services call, even though both calls were determined to be completely unfounded.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyCatLady*
> 
> Cleanliness had nothing to do with my case, so it's a bit of a different story. But I lost my daughter to cps over nothing. Nothing. I am not lying or hiding anything. I am not in any kind of denial. No abuse, neglect, the house was spotless, I am not addicted to anything, I don't have a criminal record, etc. She was removed because I had a history of bipolar disorder which they said left the potential for abuse or neglect...and apparently that is all that is needed to get a child removed from a home. I have been thoroughly psychologically tested twice since then, and it turns out I don't even have bi-polar or any other axis 1 disorder. I have nothing more than a mild case of anxiety. Has that information gotten me my daughter back any sooner? No. I have jumped through every hoop asked of me and they still refuse to give her back. The last excuse was because I might get post partum depression...despite the fact I have no history of it. *So I just want to throw up when I read on here time and time again that this never happens. That that social workers never remove kids when they shouldn't. Or that they only remove kids when there is extreme abuse or neglect. * Because it does happen. It did happen...to me and my daughter. And she is suffering greatly from it. No abuse or neglect was actually needed to remove her. Just the potential for it. She wants to come home sooo badly and she can't. For no good reason. All because of a social worker who had a bone to pick with me over not liking my "attitude" towards her (as she is in my home falsely accusing me of child abuse thanks to my ex-MIL).


I've also read/written on a LOT of CPS threads, and I have never... ever... seen anyone say the bolded underlined part of your quote. Anyone who I've seen work for CPS or be involved (i.e. foster parents) in some way has always acknowledged that there are bad workers out there. I always always say that too. So I'm sorry that you've seen people say "it never happens" because we all know it does.

What's important (really, critically important) to remember is: those bad workers/awful decisions represent like .01% of the removal decisions on kids. Of course where it does happen that kids are removed for no reason or insufficient reasons, it's devastating to the family and that should never be understated. But it is by far the exception, and an unusual exception at that, and NOT the rule. That's crucial in advising people here or anywhere on how to deal with CPS. Because unwarranted fear (as opposed to normal anxiety) can often make parents act in ways that raise suspicion instead of reducing it, and that's the last thing anyone wants to see happen.

So I never say and never see others on MDC say that bad removal decisions "never" happen, but I point out all the time that the majority of the time the *opposite* happens and kids who should be removed are left in the home, to those kids serious detriment most of the time. That is far more common than removal for nothing, and it's all tragic where the wrong thing happens.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

There was no visit last week... Or, they came when we weren't home maybe. But we didn't see them. 10 more weeks...

We've been out of the house and done some fun things. We're under extreme budget crunch due to buying a house a yr sooner than we'd planned. So most things have been free, but at least we're getting out. Things are a bit more relaxed, but they jump and fear enters their face any time the doorbell rings, and "because CPS is coming?" is now part of their vocabulary, and I hate that.  But 4H starts back up this month, Odyssey of the Mind just started, we've got 2 birthdays this month, and everyone's having fun adding things to our house wishlist. Like pets ($25/month plus a deposit to have pets here) and a few "functional" farm animals, more bedrooms, and a ping-pong table.  And the house I love has a stocked pond in front, so they're talking about ice skates.  10 more weeks...


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I hope the 10 weeks goes quickly for you. I'm glad you're able to get out and do some of your regular activities. It sucks to be on such a tight budget because of a house, but that apartment complex sounds like it's a really good place to get away from.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Thanks for the hugs!

Seriously they can/will use your online posts against you in court? I mean, these are places to vent. While I try to stay positive, there have been times when I've been irritated beyond belief and coming here for advice was my last avenue, so I vented my frustration, I'm sure. Who knows what I've said online in the past that could come back to bite me. Oy!

Plus, some of the things I've done/do that I'd rather not advertise to CPS, like UC and EBF, would be glaringly obvious. I'm starting to double-think pics I have taken in the house where there are various naked 2 yr olds (MY 2 yr olds, just each of them has been caught in photos at different times) and so on, or taken on a really messy house day... Are these photos I should get rid of? I'm completely paranoid again now. But I'm immediately going to begin taking pics on a semi-daily basis, with clothed kids and a clean house. Thanks for that suggestion! Sigh...


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

A social worker finding your online history is possible, but not probable, unless a vindictive relative or acquaintance has identified you online and specifically points a worker in the right direction. On the list of things to worry about, having your posts read should probably come way below having thing look nice around the house. But I wouldn't blame you for scrubbing your online history either, especially for anything you might have posted about mental health issues.

I wouldn't destroy pictures, if there's a trusted friend or relative you can give them to for safekeeping.

Good job holding it together, mama! I cringed at your description of the kids turning fearful when they heard somebody at the door. That's some tough stuff.

If nobody shows up at your place before moving day, make sure you make contact with your new address. They sure do hate it when they show up and the family under investigation has vanished without a trace.

... and while I know that you're broke, I still wish you would speak to a lawyer. Every. darn. thing. with CPS agencies is so particular to the area in which ones lives! Internet advice (including mine, obviously) is well-meant but lacks that county-level regional expertise.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Last week's visit was quick and easy. This week she came today. She had a paper with her. It referred to the "parent aid" thing she'd talked about at the first visit, the people who will help me develop a plan to keep it organized/clean or something. She wanted us to sign it. It says lots of scarey things and I don't want to. Luckily dh wasn't here so she had to leave it and is coming back tomorrow for it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to leave her a message tonight saying I'd like to speak to our atty first and I'll give her a call tomorrow.

When I was reading it while she was here I stumbled on the following sentences: "CPS is referring the family to your agency for parenting skills training. Based on a recent needs assessment, services should address parenting skills." She blew it off, saying That her system gives her a list of options and she has to choose one, and this is the option you choose for this service.

Then it says: " By signing below I authorize the DHS to release information...I agree to this release for 60days or until the service is completed, whichever is longer. I agree to voluntarily attend and participate in the services listed above. I understand that the disposition of this case may be reclassified to Category II if it is determined that my failure to attend and participate...places any child in this case at substantial risk of harm...if this case is escalated to Category II, my name will be entered on the child abuse/neglect central registry for life...."

Then she was talking to the kids and nonchalantly asked what our homeschool day looks like, as if she were just curious. She was taking notes. I'm freaking out again. I'm pretty sure when I talked to the atty he told me that he didn't think there was anything to worry about, but if they started asking me to sign things then call him right away.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I'm so sorry.

You are being lied to. Nothing on that form you were asked to sign is extraneous or accidental.

DO NOT SIGH THAT PAPER. Call your lawyer tomorrow. Have him contact the worker directly and arrange a meeting with the worker, at his office. Hopefully he can negotiate for you to attend a parenting class or something, so that you minimize access to your home and your kids, and still give the worker something concrete to put in her file that demonstrates her responsiveness to the initial report of child neglect.

Don't believe me, and don't believe whoever else might swoop in here to tell you that signing the form is no big deal. Believe your lawyer and follow his instructions.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Smithie is spot on. Take it from someone who has been down this road. I am scared for you right now. This is how it starts.

Call your lawyer first thing tomorrow. If you don't involve a lawyer asap, I don't see this turning out the way you want it to. I know you are already freaked and I really hate to add to it. But your posts are giving me flashbacks to how it was before they took my daughter, it all sounds so familiar. They generally don't mess with families who have lawyers because then someone is holding them accountable (my biggest mistake was not involving an outside attorney quick enough).

So please call them tomorrow, do whatever you have to do to pay for it, and keep us updated. I'm sending as many good vibes your way as I can.


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## Mom2M (Sep 23, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> I'm so sorry.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Call your lawyer. I'm sorry you are dealing with this.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> Then it says: " By signing below I authorize the DHS to release information.*..I agree to this release for 60days or until the service is completed, whichever is longer.* I agree to voluntarily attend and participate in the services listed above. *I understand that the disposition of this case may be reclassified to Category II if it is determined that my failure to attend and participate...*places any child in this case at substantial risk of harm...*if this case is escalated to Category II, my name will be entered on the child abuse/neglect central registry for life...."*


OK, the three things I bolded above would freak me out -- if you sign this, you're giving them permission to be in your lives for as long as they deem necessary. Whether you've 'participated' enough is highly subjective, and if there's someone there who doesn't like you for any reason, they've got a legal document to escalate the case.

I agree, talk to your lawyer. If she comes back tomorrow, you can point out the places that you don't understand and say firmly but politely,"I cannot sign this until I have my attorney check it out." Your atty should be able to find out what other options are possible. I'm pretty sure there's a "watch and make sure things look ok" option, and this looks like one step up.

I would also make up a loose homeschool 'schedule' and post it prominently on the fridge.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

yes. ur decision is very wise. going through a lawyer will meet the workers will have to sit up and notice that they can't 'play' with you.

yikes. this is getting crazy.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

Definitely talk to your lawyer, and I hope they are familiar with child protection cases. Do not sign without him present. Anything you can do to show initiative in attaining help will also look good. Attending a parenting class of your own choice and providing records of attendance might help, so will having records of your children's home school work, results from State testing for homeschoolers or whatever program you presented to school officials (I don't know if you did this, in Canada we have requirements along these lines). I agree with Lynn about the prominent homeschool schedule on the fridge. Recent doctor check ups also look good, and it gives the physician a chance to have positive things to say if asked. I feel so sorry for you that you are going through this. Hang in there and use whatever legal and social resources you can.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Still waiting for the call from the atty. All of the kids have been to the dr recently (and their drs and dentists are literally always complimenting me on 1. what good kids I have, and 2. what a good job I'm doing with them). There are no homeschool regulations in our state. Dh and I took a parenting class before we ever even had kids, to make sure we were on the same page regarding discipline (still have the transcript), and I own more than 20 parenting books...


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh man this is rough.







hugs and hoping they will get the heck out of your lives!


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Still waiting for the call from the atty. All of the kids have been to the dr recently (and their drs and dentists are literally always complimenting me on 1. what good kids I have, and 2. what a good job I'm doing with them). There are no homeschool regulations in our state. Dh and I took a parenting class before we ever even had kids, to make sure we were on the same page regarding discipline (still have the transcript), and I own more than 20 parenting books...


Sounds like a good start. Hope you have some helpful info from the atty. Big hugs!


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Well, nobody wants to give free info over the phone (imagine that). The one atty I'd been speaking with (state bar referral, so he had to talk to me for free the first time) is $200/hr and required a $500 deposit. There is no universe in which we can afford that. Plus, he didn't even have any CPS experience. Nice he tells me that now. I found another atty. Rates seem more reasonable and they know the CPS workers by first name. They didn't have an opening until Tues, however.

That said, I spoke to both of them today and they both said things like "unnecessary", "excessive", "insulting", "I'd be scared, too." So, I'm not imagining things. While I've not gotten a solid "NO WAY do you want to do this" from them, that's the way they are both leaning. So, I just left a message with our worker tonight that we do not want to participate in the program after all and if she had any questions to give us a call. Then we'll see what she says when she comes out for her visit next week. Maybe it's the standard form they give everyone, and since she was stressing the first day that it was totally voluntary she'll just drop it. Maybe it'll make her hackles rise and I'll be in for a fight. But, at least I seem to have an atty now, with experience, so I hope cold-calling was a good idea and these people know what they're doing enough to help me fight the ridiculousness without any bumps in the road...

Since I knew I was going against their wishes now, and presumed they might have a problem with that, I decided to have a talk with the kids today. I was honest with them about what was going on, and I told them the basics of what would happen if they were to be taken from us. I also made sure that every one of them knew that I would never until my last breath stop trying to fight to get them back. They didn't like it at all, but all I've been able to think about is their terror if they are taken away by surprise and have no idea what to expect and think they'll have to live with another family forever. And sure enough my 8 yr old told me through her tears that when she was 18 she'd come back to us. So, I got the opportunity to dispel that fear for her that apparently she'd been carrying for a month, that if they were taken away it would not be forever. Whatever hoops I had to jump through to get them back I would. It's all just so upsetting.

Keep sending prayers/good vibes this way?


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## Mom2M (Sep 23, 2006)

Thinking of you and sending LOTS of prayers.







I'm glad you found the other atty. and called the case worker to say no.
Hugs to your kids too, I think it was a good idea to talk to them since they probably were imagining things that were much worse than what was really going on.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Keep sending prayers/good vibes this way?


Sent!

I second the notion that perhaps you could find your own parenting class (if this will appease CPS) and attend it. Another option would be to find a way of organising that you think will work and show it to them. This way you are addressing their concerns, but you are in the drivers seat.

Of course, it does not look from this end that they have much basis for their concern - so it does all seem unnecessary. Sigh.

Talk to the lawyers first.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I dont understand why they keep coming back after the initial visit when the worker commented that everything looked ok. Why do they keep harassing you? What a waste of taxpayers money to say the least. Are they obligated to harass you for the minimum of 60 days even if in that time it is clear you and especially your kids dont need their help? Or is the main worry that you are homeschooling?

For every loving family they harass, children who really need their help are being ignored. I detest the cps, it should be abolished.


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## Tonia Starr (May 14, 2011)

I wuld definitly be proactive as far as making it clear you are making changes. Now, Im not saying you NEED to make changes, but simply doing it as a way to appease them. What I did when I went through this crap: wrote up a homeschool schedule and posted it in plain view. Also, I wrote up a Family Routine (I stole SuperNanny's idea there) and wrote it on big ol poster board and hungit in the kitchen. I hung up the kids school papers all over, plus kept the school books, educational supplies out in the open. I talked to a few friends and asked them if could use them as an official support system so I could tell the CPS worker I hadpeople to help me outwith childcare, etc.... (They seem pretty pro-support systems.) I had no problem asking the worker to explain things I was not clear on and I was always very poite but firm when saying needed a day or two to read over i or speak to a lawyer. Not in a way to make sound like I was fighting anything, just in a "I just really want to be clear on the specific details here" way. Basically, you want to look like you are saying "I agree with you that changes need to bemade and I am proactivly MAKING changes in agreeance with you, I just dont necesarily need the services YOU are offering. But thank you for presenting me options. " Be very careful what you sign though!! You are wise to seek legal counsel.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

You are so brave, mama. You are doing all the right things. The fact that your lawyer knows the caseworkers by name is a very, very good sign.

If they do get taken, remember, there is somebody like me on the other end who will give them a soft spot to nest while you fight this thing.

If they do get taken, send them with photos that include your spotless home in the background, their favorite books and toys, appropriate clothing (no stains! no holes! the right size!), immunization records, a copy of their birth certificates, contact information for all their doctors etc. A foster parent who is impressed by the bag the kid arrives with is a foster parent who will be disposed to think well of you, and to be open to the idea that this is all a bunch of nonsense, and to share those sentiments with the GAL and the caseworker.


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## minkin03 (May 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> For every loving family they harass, children who really need their help are being ignored.


Agreed! I have a friend whose son passed away and even after the corner confirmed that the death was not in any way caused by the family CPS still has yet to close the case 7 months later and keeps giving them the run around. Complete waste and not to mention emotionally exhausting for my friend and her family.... all they'd like at this point is some closure.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I think it's good, given how worried you are, that you have a lawyer. But the following advice I give you regardless of whether you have a lawyer, because I think it's key for you to understand.

I think it is totally appropriate for you (directly or through your lawyer) to ask for a specific written list of CURRENT concerns (i.e. not the concerns that brought them into your home originally, but their concerns today given their contact with you since the beginning of this). Then I would ask for - in writing - exactly what they feel you need to do to close your case and what the classes they're asking you to agree to have to do with their current concerns.

Lastly I would ask every other question you have "What does Level II classification mean? What criteria will you use to decide if I got what you expected me to out of the class?" or any other question you have. You can even have a handheld tape recorder running and clearly let the worker know that you are so concerned about what the form means, you'd like to tape your conversation with her as she answers your questions.

I don't know your worker so I don't know how she'd react, but I do know that you have a right to all that info and if you say that you understand things much better with them in writing and you also want documentation of what you're being told, they should give it to you.

Once you have that info, you should be in a much better position to decide what you will and won't sign. Oh yeah, another key question to ask and get documentation of the answer: what happens if you don't agree to the class or don't sign the paper? You should have a clear understanding of the worker's answer to that too.

Also critically important: as much as possible, STAY CALM when talking to your worker. It is totally, 100% reasonable to say, pretty much about any decision she's asking you to make, "I need to talk to my husband/lawyer about this, so I'll call you after I have" or "Because I need to run this by my husband/lawyer, can we set up a time when you can talk to all of us at once about this?" If any worker insists you have to make a decision or sign somethign on the spot, calmly ask why it has to be signed on the spot and how can she expect you to sign if you don't have all the info you need about the consequences? But try hard not to freak out, and try to just remember that CPS wants (or at least is supposed to want) INFORMED parental decisions. You have a right to ask for this clarifying info, and you should not flip out and imagine the worst when they ask you to sign something. But you SHOULD understand fully what you're signing, why, and what the consequences are, hence all of the above.

Still wishing you the best of luck!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> I dont understand why they keep coming back after the initial visit when the worker commented that everything looked ok. Why do they keep harassing you? What a waste of taxpayers money to say the least. Are they obligated to harass you for the minimum of 60 days even if in that time it is clear you and especially your kids dont need their help? Or is the main worry that you are homeschooling?
> 
> For every loving family they harass, children who really need their help are being ignored. I detest the cps, it should be abolished.


 Everyone is entitled to their opinion about CPS. I just want to remind you all though that pretty much every family - even those with obvious, horrific problems - feels like they are being unnecessarily engaged by CPS at some point in their engagement.

You only know what is said on the screen. The CPS worker is not here (and nor should they be!) to tell you what THEIR concerns are, why they're asking what they are, etc. As someone who has worked with CPS for decades, I wanna re-state *again* that the number of either unnecessary or totally wrong engagements of families compared with the gigantic number of families CPS is mandated to respond to is TINY. Seriously, TINY.

I don't know why it would ever, ever be considered a waste of taxpayer money for a CPS worker to follow up on concerns they have about the wellbeing and safety of a child/children. But what I do know is, we only - all of us - get one side on this board and it boggles my mind how quickly people can jump to assuming there's nothing else. I'm NOT saying I think OP is lying or hiding something from us, not at all. I AM saying that OP may not have a clear understanding of the worker's current concerns, and she's entitled to that, which is why I posted what I did directly to her.

Contactmaya, you have a right to detest CPS and wish it to be abolished. I just hope, on behalf of the literally hundreds of thousands of defenseless, innocent children whose basic needs are not being met or who are being abused on a daily basis, that your wish doesn't come true. CPS mostly UNDERresponds. And once a family comes to CPS attention, it can take time to make sure there are no additional concerns and that the case can be closed. Some see that as harassment... but as someone who's seen way way WAY too many of the opposite cases where a child eventually died and the family had been reported to CPS before but CPS hadn't picked up on the clues that things were more serious than they appeared, I'd always rather - where there is an initial report of something that fits our definitions of neglect or abuse - that we risk engaging those rare families that have nothing going on, so that the vast majority of families who DO have something not ok happening with their kids are identified.

This board is full of adults who, as kids, had no one protect them. There are also some here who had bad stuff happened but someone (a parent, a relative, a friend, CPS) did intervene and they were spared more bad stuff. Even before I ever worked for CPS I wanted my tax dollars to go to helping kids who can't help themselves... I honestly can't think of a better use of my tax dollars (other than educating kids as well and helping parents who are struggling).


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I had in mind an article that made a very cogent argument about how children in need of protection could find it in other ways than through an organization like the cps. For a start, if parents are breaking the law, then call the police, and go from there. I would post a link to that article if i had it. But the whole thing about how tidy a house is is so arbitrary.

Ive never heard anything but negativity from these boards when it comes to the cps.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Then I can simply say that you aren't reading every post or you're being selective about what you absorb. I've seen several CPS threads even in the last 6 months where people who do NOT work for CPS chime in about times they either called or knew of a family who was called on (and even a couple where CPS was called on them) and they had good things to say overall even though obviously when it's a situation CPS is getting called on at all... it's already a really sticky, icky type of situation (including when it's someone making a malicious call that the caller knows is untrue - not only is it illegal but it's also obviously some nasty interpersonal relations going on there).

But you feel what you feel, and that's pretty much that.

Re: if parents are breaking the law, call the police... I wouldn't even know where to start with explaining why from even just a logistical/resource perspective - given the number of calls specifically about alleged child abuse/neglect that are received nationally and the state of our police resources all over the country where they're dealing with all sorts of crimes - that is beyond untenable.

But again, if you're already convinced all things CPS are evil, you're not going to see any other way, so I'm not going to try to explain why abused/neglected children would be in even more dire straights without some person/agency mandated to respond to those kinds of complaints.

I will say this though... given the feelings you've expressed about how CPS workers approach parents, I'd be, well... interested to see how you'd respond to cops being the mandated response to a CPS report on your family. I see how many cops (not all of them, not even most, but many) treat kids, parents, domestic violence victims, rape victims... you must either have the warmest, fuzziest cops where you live that you think entrusting the response to them is better than CPS, or you just are *so* anti-CPS you really don't care how others would respond to families, you just want it not to be CPS. Because given how I've seen some cops respond to rape victims or DV victims and even some kids in CPS cases... ESPECIALLY if you were wrongly accused, the cops would be one othe last groups I'd want as first response.

In the end, I judge this by what I'd want for my child if she were in danger and someone else knew about it. I'd want CPS called and want to take the chances that we'd get an average or great worker who - if nothing else - followed the basic protocols in trying to help my child and assess whether there is real danger or not. I have called the police for many things and been glad I did, but I would not want a cop who's got muggers and rapists and reckless drivers to worry about to be expected to take the time and patient approach to explain to me, my child, her teachers, and anyone else: why there's concern, what the options are, etc... that is simply not what cops are trained to do or how they're trained to engage. Not even the community policing cops who are usually really awesome to talk to about crime. I want the cops to go after anyone who hurts loved ones, but I'd much rather have a social worker talk to my kid and others about what happened.

There is a reason there are special interviewers of children for most serious crimes against children, and cops aren't supposed to do that part of the investigation... if you really want to get the best info from kids, you need to be trained to know how to ask and how to engage them so they feel safe.

Cops as the response to all child abuse and neglect reports? I don't even know any cops who would think that was a good idea - I hear COPS even say they are glad we are here to do this work.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

**


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I agree. CPS might very well have saved my children's lives. I've been fostering for almost six years and have rarely heard of a situation in which the children were taken without reason. It happens but much less often than this board would lead people to believe.

OP, definitely get a lawyer's advice. It sounds like a pretty standard parenting plan but you need clarification about the specifics. The wording isn't particularly clear. And you need to know if there really are current concerns that need to be addressed or if the worker is just following procedure.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> Then I can simply say that you aren't reading every post or you're being selective about what you absorb. I've seen several CPS threads even in the last 6 months where people who do NOT work for CPS chime in about times they either called or knew of a family who was called on (and even a couple where CPS was called on them) and they had good things to say overall even though obviously when it's a situation CPS is getting called on at all... it's already a really sticky, icky type of situation (including when it's someone making a malicious call that the caller knows is untrue - not only is it illegal but it's also obviously some nasty interpersonal relations going on there).
> 
> ...


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Yes, in my VM I mentioned I've been implementing several ideas from flylady and some books I've been reading about organization when you have a large family. Dh worked long yesterday, so he was able to get out early today and we did a LOT of straightening and organizing on the main floor. Because we have so many kids we are "low income", so our furniture is beaten-up (though I am lucky to have several great consignment stores and 2 good thrift stores near us, so we all dress well). And we don't have as many organizational tools as I'd like to have, like bins and shelving units. Therefore it can look cluttered, because 8 people's worth of stuff doesn't fit well into 1400 sq ft with an especially tiny kitchen. (MAN, I can't wait to move)

But it's always clean. It's just difficult for someone who had 2 kids to come into my house and see what looks like months of laundry in baskets in the basement. In reality, it's about 3 days' worth. Or 2 sinks full of dishes. Well, that just means we only did TWO loads in the dishwasher today, instead of our usual 4. KWIM? It's logistics and expectations. Now, her comment about "for 5 kids" made me think she's dealt with a lot of large families and has realistic expectations, so that's good at least. I really do get a vibe from her like she is not concerned about us but has to dot her Is and cross her Ts. She said again this week that she's trying to get the case transferred to an "ongoing worker", like it's just a "checklist complete, see you next week" kind of thing, but this form just threw up red flags for me.

As Averysmomma eluded to, I think they probably get reports more often of low income families neglecting or abusing, because it is assumed that low income families are uneducated, cognitively impaired, or otherwise incapable, or just plain uncaring about presumably unwanted children. My atty asked me to bring a resume with me, showing my multiple degrees and professional history, and some other things just to illuminate my background showing I don't fit the "profile" of a neglectful parent. They also feel it is relevant that we wanted and tried for all of our children, sought parenting training before ever having children, and that I was recently receiving child development training (I was training to be an early education teacher, but I couldn't see working for a school system when I don't really like school systems, so I switched my major). I know all the "right" ways to do it, and my children proved to them that I do all those right things (I wasn't allowed in the room while they were questioned, but was allowed to listen from the next room as long as the kids didn't know I was there). So, I really don't see why I couldn't slide right through this. If she'll just let this parent aid thing slide...

Smithie, thank you for the tip on what to include with the kids. I've only ever seen CPS come for kids on TV, in a dramatic scene where the parent(s) also go to jail, so I didn't even really know they would allow you to pack things up for the kids. I probably assumed too much, just like my kids, that it would be a "right now", ripping them from my arms kind of thing I couldn't prepare them for.

I just keep counting. 8 more weeks...


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"I wanna re-state *again* that the number of either unnecessary or totally wrong engagements of families compared with the gigantic number of families CPS is mandated to respond to is TINY. Seriously, TINY."

I agree with that. But when you're the OP and dealing with the unmerited engagement, the chances of it happening to you are 100%.

I think MDC posters dealing with CPS are more likely than the general population to be embroiled in a baseless/vindictive report. We are people who make remarkable (as in, outsiders remark upon them) parenting choices. Our incomes are often low. Our family size is often high. We often refuse to follow the guidance of recognized experts. None of this, of course, makes us more likely to abuse or neglect our children, but I do think that socially deviant parents are more likely to be reported, and more likely to be investigated when reported. (Deviant in this context is a compliment







.)


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> I think MDC posters dealing with CPS are more likely than the general population to be embroiled in a baseless/vindictive report. We are people who make remarkable (as in, outsiders remark upon them) parenting choices. Our incomes are often low. Our family size is often high. We often refuse to follow the guidance of recognized experts. None of this, of course, makes us more likely to abuse or neglect our children, but I do think that socially deviant parents are more likely to be reported, and more likely to be investigated when reported. (Deviant in this context is a compliment
> 
> ...


I was thinking this, too, that we are an "at risk group" for baseless CPS involvement. And more mainstream folks don't have to worry about things like how many beds they have in their homes or if their 2 1/2 year old will want to nurse while the caseworker is there.

I always wonder whether these kinds of discussions even come up on mainstream parenting forums.

OP, I hope this passes as soon as possible without any further trauma to your family. I can't imagine how hard it must be.


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## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

I've just read parts of this thread. I am grateful CPS exists. They are not a perfect group and they need much improvement, but I have seen many abused children aided by CPS.

When my son was 7 months old I was wearing him in a front pack while I was rolling pie crust. I turned around in my small kitchen and pressed his leg against our beautiful, but underinsulated, antique stove. He screamed and a huge blister immediately formed on his leg. Since my MIL had just been in the burn unit with a 93% chance of dying (she did just fine) I was even more sensitive to the burn and pretty much freaked out and rushed him to the hospital.

Wouldn't you know it, it was laundry day. I was wearing cutoffs and the old t-shirt a boyfriend had given me...you know the shirt, he cut the sleeves off it. Plus I got both of us wet putting the baby in the water to stop the burn. So I show up at the ER in ragged wet clothes with an infant with a suspicious burn on his leg.

I'm an RN. If I was working in the ER that day I'd be very concerned about that baby.

I just accepted that everyone who asked what happened was just doing their job. I didn't get paranoid. I knew that the wrong person with the wrong attitude could get CPS involved and life could go down from there. But I wanted them to screen me and my baby. I wanted them to make sure he was okay. (I also wanted them to know it was an accident and that I'm a good mama.)

When the burn unit's child life person came into the waiting room, I was the most nervous. It is her specific job to screen for abuse. (When I was a nursing student I spent time in that unit. We had a 3 year old whose family had set it in a pan of hot grease. People do really bad things to their kids.) I knew this woman was key to me taking my baby home. It's also her job to attend to the emotional well-being of children with burns. I was gracious with her and without saying anything told her she wasn't necessary. When they took my son to treat his burn they said to lay him down and they would mummy wrap him with just his leg exposed. I said, "No. I will nurse him while you treat the wound." Then when the nurse prepared to pop the blister, the childlife person started to play "this little piggy" with his toes. I sang his favorite song to him. The childlife person pulled her hand back and just watched. She saw that, even in my tattered clothes, I was caring for my child's needs. She said, "Don't worry. Children this well cared for always heal fast." BINGO. No CPS report. Because my actions told the worker everything she needed to know.

Our daughter is adopted. The adoption worker that certified us is an older, mainstream Hispanic woman. About as far as you can get from MDC. Since there was only one bed in our house and our son was 2.5, we had no choice but to discuss co-sleeping. And since he nursed in front of her, I told her that I would adoptive nurse our new baby. She had concerns and I told her about all the scientific evidence supporting every choice we make. She asked for info and boy did I give it to her. And it was all from respected "experts." I even gave her something off the Aetna insurance website. It says it was approved by the Harvard Medical School. It's about the benefits of tandem nursing. She went from doubtful to fully supportive and often joked about how much I research every decision I make.

My advice to anyone who has to deal with CPS. Be confident in yourself. Be grateful they exist. Be willing to share scientific information about your parenting choices. Pretty much every common choice on MDC (with the probable exception of UC) is supported by the scientific literature. Co-sleeping? cite James McKenna and William Sears. Extended Breastfeeding? cite WHO. Somewhere I even have a study showing homebirths are as safe as hospital births. Homeschooling? tons of research out there. Oh, regarding co-sleeping. I even talk about how in "Pediatrics" (the journal of the american academy of pediatrics) there were tons of editorials against the co-sleeping statement. (Turns out only 5 people came up with that decision and at least one of them had ties to the crib mattress making industry.) Jaws drop when they realize that I read the journal meant for pediatricians.

And thank the CPS worker for caring about your children. That's what this is all about. They care about your kids. And really, I feel better knowing that in our imperfect world someone, usually an overworked, underpaid someone, is trying to help kids. Like the baby I cared for whose parents picked it up by the feet and hit it's head against the wall. Or the little girl whose mother fed her once a day and never held her the first year of her life. Or the 3 year old I mentioned before that was set in grease. Or the three year old that drug her two little siblings under the bed while her father shot up the motel room. Or the girl who told me about when she was 5 and her grandmother put her in a closet then hit her in the nose causing it to bleed. Shall I go on?


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

SundayCrepes, Your post makes it sound like as long as you're a loving mama and can site research to support how you parent, there's no need to worry. But that seems a little naive to me. I definitely don't think that CPS is out to get people and I do agree that there needs to be some government body that is dedicated to helping children who's parents are abusive and/or neglectful, but I would be so horrified and scared if CPS were to come knocking on my door, even though I know that I'm a loving mama and I know that there's good reason to believe that it's in my child's best interest to be sleeping in my bed. There is still someone standing there in your doorway who has the power to destroy your family. I don't think it is "paranoid" to be worried that things will turn out badly.

I also think it's naive to think that you can always convince the professionals that your way is the best or even a good way to parent. I've been seeing a therapist -- who, ya know, has a Ph.D. in psychology and *knows about these things* -- for well over a year now and I have no doubt that he thinks I'm a good mom, but he feels quite strongly that 2 1/2 is way too old for my son to be nursing and that it's not good for my children to have them sleeping in our bed, and that I'm only doing those things for my own benefit, though he would concede that he believes that I think it's good for them. I haven't come in with Harvard studies to back myself up, but even if I did... he knows that stuff already. He has a degree in that stuff. He's not going to be open to me bringing in studies. There are, I'm sure, many more studies that will back him up. If you get the wrong caseworker, I don't think it matters how many studies you have or what glorious institutions of higher learning they come from. And if your case worker doesn't want to see how loving you are it doesn't matter how sincerely loving you are to your child in front of him or her, they are not going to see it that way.

And what if you just happen to be a shy or inarticulate or abrasive person? Maybe you are an awesomely sweet mama, but not likable for some reason. What if you're not attractive? If especially tall men are more likely to get the job or if overweight women have a lesser chance of getting a position, I wonder how those things affect CPS interviews. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm starting to wonder if the wet t-shirt wasn't such a bad idea, iykwim. It sounds to me like *you did everything right* in front of the people who were assessing you. But are all sweet loving mamas really capable of doing that even when they're feeling scared and freaked out because their baby is hurt?

I wish that you were right that all you had to do was site the research and show them how much you love your child, but I just don't think that jives with reality.

eta: Of course, I think 99% of the time, whoever is assessing is going to do it fairly well. But the stakes are so high that I cannot see how someone could be expected to not be fearful even with that very small chance of the system not working in your case.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> "I wanna re-state *again* that the number of either unnecessary or totally wrong engagements of families compared with the gigantic number of families CPS is mandated to respond to is TINY. Seriously, TINY."
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for pointing out the obvious here Smithie. And mama's going through this kind of harassment/hell need support. Lots of it. Not to be told that they must be lying or hiding something from MDC. And especially not that "well, CPS is usually a great program". Because honestly, anyone could be lying about anything when on MDC. Yet we still offer a supportive place and lots of advice. When it comes to CPS threads though, that's not always the case because many members are either hinting at, or out loud accusing the OP of keeping something hidden. That kind of suspicion doesn't exist in most other threads and it shouldn't exist here. I never started any threads and I've kept most of the details surrounding my cps case to myself because I didn't want to go through that hurt on MDC on top of everything else terrible that was going on in my life during that time. Which is a shame because MDC can offer some great advice and perspective during hard times.

I guess all I am here to add is that very wrong cps cases do happen. Maybe even more often than any of us realize. I think they are more likely to happen to MDC type members. And I really wish that MDC would be more supportive to the members that it happens to. Or at least keep the CPS love to themselves during that horrible time in a OP's life. Since stating personal opinion on how often CPS "normally" really helps people, does nothing to help a scared or grieving mother at the time. And now I'll step out of this thread because I am taking it too personal.

Feel free to pm me if you ever need anything OP.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

And for what it's worth, I am college educated and can be very well spoken in real life. That meant absolutely nothing to CPS here because no matter how educated you are, if they don't like your choices, they will just come up with somebody even more educated/experienced to discredit you in front of a judge or in the report. I also had a head full of purple hair and five facial piercings at the time which really turned off the cps worker that started all of this (her hatred of how I looked was even mentioned in the reports).

And I'm sure being sweet and smart can charm some workers. Really, I don't doubt that at all. But to insist that it will always get you out of trouble when it comes to cps is just nowhere near true. To say something like that and have people believe it...will be very hurtful when those people may be in a place someday where cps comes to investigate them. And that particular worker isn't so nice or she doesn't want to listen to anything you have to say. Because I can speak from experience, to how rude and horrible of an awaking that is. Especially after being told for years on MDC how "nice" and "helpful" cps really is. So I definitely think it's better to prepare parents for the worst and tell them to hope for the best when it comes to working with CPS workers than it is to only fill their head with the good and the positive. There is definitely a bad side that people should at least be aware of if nothing else.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

I mostly came to MDC for advice because it's pretty anonymous. I'm incredibly ashamed to tell anyone I know irl about this. Because most people assume you must have done something really wrong. Much in the way people believe that if you were arrested you did something wrong, and even go so far as to assume you are a "bad guy". Gosh I have a lot of conversations with my kids about "bad guys". Doesn't matter if you're eventually exonerated, you've lost most of your life and all respect in the process.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"SundayCrepes, Your post makes it sound like as long as you're a loving mama and can site research to support how you parent, there's no need to worry. But that seems a little naive to me. I definitely don't think that CPS is out to get people and I do agree that there needs to be some government body that is dedicated to helping children who's parents are abusive and/or neglectful, but I would be so horrified and scared if CPS were to come knocking on my door, even though I know that I'm a loving mama and I know that there's good reason to believe that it's in my child's best interest to be sleeping in my bed. There is still someone standing there in your doorway who has the power to destroy your family. I don't think it is "paranoid" to be worried that things will turn out badly."

That's my perspective as well. Of course I want CPS to exist. Of course I think they save children who need saving. I believe in the system enough to get myself involved as a foster parent!

But the relationship between a parent and a CPS worker is hugely imbalanced in terms of power, and in terms of what the two parties have invested in the outcome. That's why it's always, always best for parents being investigated by CPS to seek legal counsel, maintain their social boundaries to the greatest extent possible, and remember that the CPS worker is not their ally or their friend.


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## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> SundayCrepes, Your post makes it sound like as long as you're a loving mama and can site research to support how you parent, there's no need to worry. But that seems a little naive to me. I definitely don't think that CPS is out to get people and I do agree that there needs to be some government body that is dedicated to helping children who's parents are abusive and/or neglectful, but I would be so horrified and scared if CPS were to come knocking on my door, even though I know that I'm a loving mama and I know that there's good reason to believe that it's in my child's best interest to be sleeping in my bed. There is still someone standing there in your doorway who has the power to destroy your family. I don't think it is "paranoid" to be worried that things will turn out badly.


I don't think it's paranoid to be afraid of CPS. I guess what I was trying to say is they are on your door, your family is threatened, now what do you do? It seems to me the best you can do is be confident, without being arrogant. If you start looking over your shoulder and apologizing and acting guilty or aggressive like they are evil-doers it seems you're more likely to rub them the wrong way. If you take the attitude that they have the best interest of children in their heart, it will likely be better for you.

I know my experience in the ER/burn unit was not the same as CPS showing up on my door. In my case I took a child with a minor injury for treatment and was subjected to appraisal. That is MUCH different from someone having a reason to think I'm doing something wrong showing up on my doorstep. However, what else do you have to do? Yes, call a lawyer, but beyond that the best you can do is not alienate these folks. And assuming they want what is best for your child is possibly your best defense.

And I do think most of them want what is best for the child. How that is defined is another question. I'm also sure that the burnout in the job is beyond horrible. I've seen way too many abused kids and that's not even my specialty. I've thought about being a CPS worker just to have an open-minded person doing the job, but I just can't do the work. Which is awful because I am putting my needs before the needs of these poor kids. My parents knew (and I met) a CPS worker who killed herself because of the stress in her job.

I think it helps if when they come knocking on someone's door, they are treated as child-advocates and not family destroyers. That difference could make a huge difference in the glasses they are wearing.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

It seems to me that parents are guilty until proven innocent. Cps has the power to remove your children, and parents none whatsoever. Wow, this isnt how things work in a democratic society. Anyone can make an accusation, arbitrary in nature, and the cps is at your door. If a mandated reporter makes a report, and their reports can be no less arbitrary, the cps seems obligated to come whatever the accusation, and however baseless it is. Some of these so called mandated reporters thrive on their power, and especially because it can be so easily used against the least powerful in society. Ive seen this, and ive seen plenty of those type of 'mandated' reporters.

Everyone wants to protect abused children, but there has to be a better way than this. There needs to be a better balance of power. And frankly, when the cps comes to your door, and sees nothing to worry about other than a pregnant mom of 4 or 5 kids, who is a little disorganized, thats not a reason to keep coming back and harassing her. I am not seeing anything whatsoever in the OP's account that merits a return visit from the cps.

That is why i am asking, why do they keep coming back, and why the mandatory 60 days?

Btw, i grew up in a big family, and things were disorganized but i had a happy childhood. Wow, someone should have called the cps to harrass my mom for not being the perfect housewife.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm a mandatory reporter (twice over, actually.) I've made probably a dozen CPS calls that were actually taken as reports and a few more dozen where I called to find out if something was reportable. I take that responsibility very seriously. I've also probably listened to a hundred cases in family court sessions. Most reports are not acted upon. Often, the situation isn't deemed serious enough that action doesn't need to be taken but the information is recorded in case it's needed in the future. And in cases in which the situation is deemed founded and there's enough of a concern that action is taken, a parenting plan (therapy, cleaning, family support, respite, whatever) is usually developed first. I've seen parenting plans (for children who are in care and for those who are at home with their families.) They are pretty standard forms but usually worded in such a way that people take them seriously. Some families really need the concreteness, and formality, of that to get the seriousness. The OP's plan is voluntary. Whether she accepts that, or not, is between her and a lawyer who is experienced with family court/social services.

I'm eternally grateful to the mandatory reporters who contacted social services my children's (and their sibling's) behalf.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyCatLady*
> 
> Thank you so much for pointing out the obvious here Smithie. And mama's going through this kind of harassment/hell need support. Lots of it. Not to be told that they must be lying or hiding something from MDC. And especially not that "well, CPS is usually a great program". Because honestly, anyone could be lying about anything when on MDC. Yet we still offer a supportive place and lots of advice. .


This.

This thread was started for support and advice by a mama who has CPS involved in her life. I do think explaining how CPS works is beneficial - but going off on tangents about how wonderful or evil CPS is, is probably not helpful.

I also think it is fair to say that no matter how wonderful a worker may be, CPS is a trial for the family and a judgemental invasion.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyCatLady*
> 
> And for what it's worth, I am college educated and can be very well spoken in real life. That meant absolutely nothing to CPS here because no matter how educated you are, if they don't like your choices, they will just come up with somebody even more educated/experienced to discredit you in front of a judge or in the report. I also had a head full of purple hair and five facial piercings at the time which really turned off the cps worker that started all of this (her hatred of how I looked was even mentioned in the reports).
> 
> And I'm sure being sweet and smart can charm some workers. Really, I don't doubt that at all. But to insist that it will always get you out of trouble when it comes to cps is just nowhere near true. To say something like that and have people believe it...will be very hurtful when those people may be in a place someday where cps comes to investigate them. And that particular worker isn't so nice or she doesn't want to listen to anything you have to say. Because I can speak from experience, to how rude and horrible of an awaking that is. Especially after being told for years on MDC how "nice" and "helpful" cps really is. So I definitely think it's better to prepare parents for the worst and tell them to hope for the best when it comes to working with CPS workers than it is to only fill their head with the good and the positive. There is definitely a bad side that people should at least be aware of if nothing else.


Hmm, I must've missed a post, because I've not seen anyone say that education is or should be a determining factor (looks like someone told OP that and to get her resume, but I missed the post if it was said here... but aside from that...). I also haven't seen anyone say you can be sweet and charm workers and that that is always a winning strategy.

And it's good that neither of those are true for the most part, because they shouldn't be true. Education should have NOTHING to do with whether a child is perceived to be at risk or not. Sure, we live in the real world and I know as well as anyone that often educated/well-spoken people are not looked at as carefully etc. But level of education or well-spokenness has zero to do with whether a child is actually at risk/in danger or not. And good CPS workers know that and are not judging on education or charm etc.

Goes without saying that for the worker to comment on your physical appearance is inappropriate and sucks, and I am not doubting *your* particular experience was awful. I just don't see anyone saying what you're saying they do about CPS "always" being one way or another.

I must've also missed the posts that CPS is "nice". I'm the first to say (and have in this thread already) that no matter how good the worker or how in crisis the family, CPS involvement is by definition a sticky, hard, crappy situation to be in. But whether it can ultimately be helpful is up to both the worker and the family, working together.

OP have you been able to talk to your lawyer yet?


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Just wondering if there are any more updates to this...


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

We had to postpone our atty visit. We met with her late yesterday. Fortunately she is intimately acquainted with our local CPS agency. Unfortunately, since she knows how they work, she suggested we go along with whatever they want. If we play their game they'll let us sail through. If we fight, they'll drag us through the mud and we obviously can't afford it.  She said there is always a public defender, but that a public defender will not get a good outcome. We'll be in worst straits than if we just went along now.

She agreed that it seemed to be a simple accident, and that the original worker assessed it correctly and should have closed it. She was extremely irritated that the supervisor kept the case open. She said it's typical in our county and it frustrates her to no end; that the worker is there and uses her good judgement and then the supervisor undermines the worker when they don't know anything about it and weren't there. She also said the original worker is wishy-washy and wouldn't have stood up for her original assessment, and that's why the supervisor won out and the case is still open. Sigh.

We've been referred to an "ongoing worker" now and she seems to want to set up scheduled times for visits, so that's good. I haven't actually spoken to her yet, just phone tag. Fingers crossed she just drops the referred "program" and we get out in 7 weeks, as scheduled.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> We had to postpone our atty visit. We met with her late yesterday. Fortunately she is intimately acquainted with our local CPS agency. Unfortunately, since she knows how they work, she suggested we go along with whatever they want. If we play their game they'll let us sail through. If we fight, they'll drag us through the mud and we obviously can't afford it.  She said there is always a public defender, but that a public defender will not get a good outcome. We'll be in worst straits than if we just went along now.
> 
> ...


This update fills me with anger. You just have to go along with it and HOPE that these people turn you loose in SEVEN WEEKS??? That is INSANE.

So do you see this, CPS lovers?? Look at the power this organization has over the lives of perfectly law abiding parents!! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!! Look on as these poor people have to deal with the presence of CPS in their life, take time out of their freaking days and family life to take a goddamn "parenting program". ONGOING WORKER???? This is SUCH bullcrap. I'm irate at this update.

OP, these people are hindering you in your ability to live peacefully and it sucks. This is just ridiculous. I just can't even say everything I want to say, because it would be inappropriate and offensive. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. This is absolutely ridiculous.

Again, I'm just not able to say what is on my mind in any kind of respectful way, so I'm just not going to open this can of worms....suffice it to say, I'm absolutely PISSED for you, that you are dealing with this crap.

So are you going to sign that paperwork? Is that what the lawyer is telling you to do??? I wouldn't sign that vague, right waiving, bullcrap piece of paper for all the tea in china. I cannot imagine a world where my attorney would allow me to sign something so vague for an organization that was obviously so intent on staying in my life and messing with me...tell them you;ll agree to the program verbally, or in a specific signed statement or whatever....but please don't sign that paperwork. It just gives them too much room to screw you...and considering what they are already putting you through FOR NO REASON, they may be more than inclined to screw you some more.

LIVID.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

SERIOUSLY....all you people who sit around like "oh CPS is so great!" - look at this, seriously. "If we play their game, they;ll let us sail through....if we don't (WHICH REALLY MEANS: If we advocate for our rights as parents and demand fair and constitutionally sound treatment) - we get dragged through the mud" - this is a disgusting abuse. Anyone involved in this situation knows that these are good parents who are doing their best. This is absolutely insane. OP, I'm so sorry.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm certainly no CPS lover. I know there are times when the system doesn't work as it should but that's not the norm (in my experience as a foster parent and having worked with at-risk families for years.) It sucks being involved with CPS. That's a fact. No matter if you are "innocent" or "guilty" of the allegations.

OP, I've worked with many wonderful "public defenders." I actually don't think that's the proper term but that doesn't matter. DD's birth mother's lawyer is a state senator. And her birth father's lawyer was a pit bull (in a good way- I was impressed.) I would ask for representation and talk to someone who deals with this stuff EVERY DAY.I can't imagine that they would suggest that you accept a parenting plan If everything you've told us is true (and I have no reason to doubt that,) then then all this isn't necessary and you should be able to get people (neighbors, teachers, employers, etc) to support your case.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

http://fightcps.com/2010/04/09/what-to-do-if-child-protective-services-social-workers-are-investigating-you/ For all the times CP

For all the time CPS does well, there are just as many times they don't. And when they don't, and I mean I know of a few situations where kids were left in bad situations and kids were taken out of good situations. I've once seen CPS do right by a kid and CPS leave kids to fend for themselves.

There are a lot of women in my own family that do not need to be mothers. My cousin had 5 girls she didn't take care of, her sister would come by every day and look after them for her until she had had enough and told her either to give her custody or straighten up. She chose to take of with the ones she like and left her oldest by her self in a crappy apartment. She was 9. CPS had been called on her over 12 times. The meth head got to keep her other kids but her sister was able to get custody of the oldest. Now the other 4... nobody knows where they are.

There was a situation at work a few years back where a mother was obviously off her rocker. My DH was her supervisor and he sent someone out to her home to make sure her kids were ok. She left them alone while she was at work. Two toddlers and an infant. They were locked in a room with a bag of suckers. The bathroom was full of dirty diapers (bathtub was used as a trash can) and the fridge had a pint of milk. That was it. The home was filthy, animal feces everywhere. The situation continued to get worse and CPS would drop by and leave. She kept her kids and she never lost custody. She was never sent to parenting classes and she eventually moved away.

Our old neighbors had a boy they werefostering, the kid went to school smelling like patchouli... they apparently decided that the mother was using patchouli to cover the smell of weed. She's been trying to get her son back since they took him from school. Not her home, from school. They never went to her house. The family doesn't see a reason why the boy shouldn't go back to his mother. From all their interactions with her and from their time with the boy the relationship is obviously healthy.

By the way I grow patchouli at my house. I love the smell.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

I know it's hard to believe anyone you "meet" on the internet, but I swear I'm the best parent I know irl. I had all natural births for my babies. If it could be proven that drugs did nothing to your babies I'd never have given it a second thought! Bring on the drugs! But I had to protect my babies. When my first had food allergies as a baby I didn't switch to forumla like everybody on the internet, I removed the foods from my diet. Allergy diets have been the hardest thing I have ever done as a parent, but I've done it 5 times (eating nothing but chicken and oranges for 6 weeks while we worked out the 14 things my 4th is allergic to). I began researching immunity and nutrition. I stepped up my efforts last winter and this year I have read over 100 books on the subjects. My entire family has a very specific diet and supplement program that I designed MYSELF and ran past my doctor (DO, very naturally-minded) to check for my accuracy. I'm trying to HEAL my kids so that they can have better lives. If it was just me getting a headache from corn, or a stuffy nose from milk, I'd have never changed a thing. One of the things that worries me the most about them being taken is that NOBODY'S going to take care of them and feed them the way I do. Nobody's making all their meals from scratch, from grass-fed animals and herbs and probiotic-rich foods/drinks. Sigh... I've never met anyone as dedicated to their kids and their well-being, and that's the part most disturbing to me.

I literally drove past Payless on my way home, just days after this started. 2 very large women left the store with 5 children between them (aged maybe 2-7 yrs old). I saw only one car in the parking lot, so I watched as I sat at the light. They piled the kids in the back of the car, cuffing the last one in the head I assume because she wasn't moving fast enough, no car seats what-so-ever. They still had their kids.


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## tooraloora (Oct 15, 2010)

I don't like to go into my dealings with CPS (I'm trying to forget that nightmare), so I've stayed out of this topic so far, but if they do continue to push for you to sign that paper, you might be able to get it changed a little. I did that with a couple different things. I was sweet as pie and told them that I really wanted to work with them, but that I just wasn't comfortable with some of the language in what they wanted me to sign. I pointed out the specific sentences that made me uncomfortable, the worker went over it with her supervisor, then came back to me with some of the sentences removed, and others changed. It still wasn't completely what I wanted, but it was enough for me to feel more comfortable signing, and I wasn't about to nitpick. Gotta pick your battles. Might be worth a shot.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Good for you, gabbyraja, for getting a lawyer who knows all the players involved here. Yes, what she told you was frustrating (enraging, in fact). But AT LEAST SHE KNOWS THE SCORE. If she's telling you that they'll abuse their power if you stand up for yourself, then you have every reason to believe her. After all, she makes more money if you fight :-(

Chin up, mama. You've gotten your legal advice. You should probably follow it unless your gut is still screaming "noooo!" to signing that horrible paper.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

gabbyraja, I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I know you are a dedicated mother and advocate for your children and it's making me sick that you are going through this. Nobody is going to take your kids, don't worry. I think Tooraloora made an AWESOME suggestion...do everything you can to get that language changed and try and be sweet as you can without giving them anything that isn't good for you. I'm sick you have to play their games....this is horrible. It's just AWFUL. That an OBVIOUSLY good mother who didn't actually do ANYTHING wrong is having to jump through these kinds of hoops to prove to the state that she is a fit parent is disgusting.

What have they actually CHARGED you with? What is the actual determination?? Unfit? Somewhat unfit? Negligent? WHAT? Ugh. I've seen this so many times, just so so many times. I don't understand it. It sickens me so deeply. We must protect children, yes, obviously....but how much power do we give this kind of organization? Why do they have the power to hold anyone they want in such a precarious place....the threat of losing your kids cuts so deep. CPS shouldn't have the power to just decide that anyone, no matter how lacking they are in evidence of any actual abuse, has to PROVE that they are suitable parents.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> We had to postpone our atty visit. We met with her late yesterday. Fortunately she is intimately acquainted with our local CPS agency. Unfortunately, since she knows how they work, she suggested we go along with whatever they want. If we play their game they'll let us sail through. If we fight, they'll drag us through the mud and we obviously can't afford it.  She said there is always a public defender, but that a public defender will not get a good outcome. We'll be in worst straits than if we just went along now.


I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I cannot imagine the stress. Having worked in child welfare, I think your attorney gave you excellent advice (and I am thinking it is similar to what others in child welfare have suggested). Going along with "the game" will get you through this much much more quickly, and yes, if you fight, they probably will drag you through the mud. Another way to think of it though is this-- If you are cooperative with them in allowing them into your home to see with their own eyes that your children are well cared for, that you're nurturing, not neglectful or abusive, and if you seem willing to take their suggestions for parenting classes, etc., proving to them that you are interested in parenting your children to the best of your abilities (nevermind that you already know you've read tons of books and done tons of research--they don't know that), then they can close your case in a few weeks with the satisfaction of knowing that your kids are safe and well cared for. After all, the majority of social workers truly want this for all children and families, which is why they do the job in the first place.

On the other hand, if you don't cooperate, through their eyes, they are going to see the lack of cooperation as an indication that you have something to hide, aren't interested in doing what you have to do to keep your kids, can't follow through, etc. So then they "drag you through the mud." Which to them isn't some sort of punishment for you. They feel they *must* ensure your children are safe through whatever means necessary. They aren't trying to be punitive, punish, drag you through the mud. They're trying to do a job they take very seriously. If you don't cooperate and provide access and seem interested in "learning" from them (even if you already know more than them), they assume they are still needed and will not close your case because they won't be satisfied that your kids are okay.

I promise you, that is how the vast majority of social workers think. When I see all sorts of wild suggestions on MDC about not providing access, etc., I seriously am distressed because I *know* the best way to get CPS out of your life is to *show them* your kids are fine. When they cannot verify that fully, they cannot close your case with a clear conscience.

I truly believe that if everything you have posted on MDC is a full and accurate portrait of what your home is like and your parenting is like (and I do believe you are telling the truth), that you have nothing to fear in terms of them taking your kids. Yes, it will be a long few weeks. It could drag on a few months. It will be stressful and there will be very difficult days for you emotionally as you worry about the what-ifs. But I really believe you are strong enough to endure everything that you will have to deal with, and that in a few months this will be nothing more than a horrible memory for you. Good luck, mama.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi APToddlerMom: Here's the problem....if you've been around MDC long enough (which I know you have, BTW, HI! Nice to see you!) and have been paying attention to the CPS threads as they come up......then you are aware of the RIDICULOUS things that have happened to people who DO let them in, thinking "what's the worst that could happen, I want to prove I have nothing to hide" - only to have the CPS worker cite "stained floors" and "not enough beds" (in a co-sleeping household) or other COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS things and end up having people dragged through long battles to prove that they aren't really secret monsters who abuse their children.

I don't trust CPS workers...I don't trust any government employee when they are engaging me in their official capacity. The CPS worker is trying to decide if you are a good parent. The cop is trying to decide if you're a criminal. The IRS worker is trying to decide if you are in any way dodging paying what they think is "your fair share" - the list goes on. Never help a government employee with any information that could be used to hang you in a court of law. The burden of proof is supposed to lie with the state....so why is that so different with CPS? They can open a file on you, NOT find ANY proof...and demand certain things of you to prove that you aren't an unfit parent ANYWAY. Any lawyer worth their salt is going to explain to you that CPS workers are like cops...and that unless they have a warrant or a damned good -emergent- reason, they shouldn't be allowed to just waltz into your house to "check things out".

Mamas who KNOW they are good mamas, have let CPS into their home to check things out, open the fridge, etc....because THEY think that the CPS worker is looking for signs that the children in the household are living in filth, not being fed, etc....when really, some of these agents just don't like their lifestyle and are looking for ANY reason to keep a case open and make a family "pay".

It's insane. Telling women here that they should just "play the game" with CPS is dangerous. I can think of two mamas off the top of my head, who would have avoided months of extreme stress for themselves and their children, ongoing problems with CPS and in one case, temporarily losing custody of their children, if they had said "no thank you, CPS worker, I need to speak with a lawyer before you come in my house" - but they didn't have anything to hide.....so they opened the door and invited CPS right into their lives. One of the ladies was reported by a nurse at her doctors office for "medical neglect" (yeah, non-vaxxing) and the other was reported by a nosy neighbor who thought their two year old was naked in the yard too much. Those are just the two who come to mind...there have been ---so--- many mamas over the years who have had minor or MAJOR brushes with CPS for little to NO reason.

CPS has too much power to ruin the lives of people who are not, by any means or definition, abusers or neglectors of children. It's insane. The fact that this women should just have to "go along with it to be done with it" even though everyone involved knows her children are FINE, flies in the face of everything that it is supposed to mean to live in the USA.


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## minkin03 (May 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> Mamas who KNOW they are good mamas, have let CPS into their home to check things out, open the fridge, etc....because THEY think that the CPS worker is looking for signs that the children in the household are living in filth, not being fed, etc....when really, some of these agents just don't like their lifestyle and are looking for ANY reason to keep a case open and make a family "pay".


I could totally see this happening.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi Averysmomma. There have been lots of threads I've agreed with you on, but I just totally disagree with you on this one. Yes, I've seen the billion threads on MDC about CPS and yes I do think that on occassion workers make very poor decisions regarding pulling kids from homes when it should not happen. I just happen to think that the majority of bad decisions made by social workers are leaving kids in dangerous situations. I think you and I view CPS very differently. My opinion is that their job and the work they do is protecting children and supporting families who would otherwise not be capable of parenting their children safely. You view them as an entity that walks all over parents'rights. Maybe if you saw .1% of the situations I've seen up close and personal, you would understand why ensuring child safety is a bigger priority than a parents' "rights" not to have to deal with CPS, have intrusive visits, go to therapy, take classes, etc. It sucks for those who go through the process without good reason, but probably for every time that happens, 100 kids in disgustingly abusive and neglectful situations are saved more heartache, pain, and hardship. To me, the benefits of CPS outweigh the negatives. Also, all those intrusive things CPS requires....like making parents do education...is really CPS doing its best to keep kids where they belong--with their families. Child safety within the biological family home is the absolute goal of CPS. "Ongoing workers" are assigned solely to help the family with any and all resources possible to strengthen the family unit and allow the children to remain in the family home. Yes, it sucks if you are like OP and don't need it, but the vast majority of families who work with an ongoing worker truly do need assistance. Ongoing workers regularly help connect families with WIC, food stamps, MA, childcare, employment, housing, parenting education, therapy, addiction services, etc. I've worked with many families who have ended up really liking me (imagine that) and being so grateful for the assistance they've received because so many of them really couldn't do it on their own. The outside stressors majorly impacted their parenting, and they were happy to have those stressors removed so they could become better parents.

Also, this is definitely in NO way a reference to OP, but I will tell you I have seen other posters on MDC posting about the horrific things CPS has done to them, claiming they are "perfect" and CPS had no justification for their actions. However, I've seen other threads by these same exact posters in which extremely serious safety issues have been brought up. I am not going to list names, obviously, and will not even get into the details of what they themselves wrote on MDC in other threads because I don't want to get "warned" or anything, but feel free to pm me if you want me to provide you with some examples. Without a doubt, there have been posters on here who had absolutely no business parenting their children and CPS, but more importantly, their CHILDREN, had every right in the world to have CPS intruding on their lives. Horrific, dangerous, and sickening things. So, while there are threads in which I wholeheartedly believe the MDC member has been the victim of really bad luck (like OP in this case), there are also posters claiming CPS is so awful who are not telling the whole story in their "scare the pants off of everyone else at MDC" threads. You also have been around long enough to have picked up on some of these cases... This is the internet afterall, and being an MDC mama does not mean someone isn't neglectful or abusive.

Even being a social worker, I'll agree with you on this...CPS sucks. They do a bad job in general of protecting children. I just am of the belief that their major flaw is underreacting, not overreacting. Social workers, for the most part, do not have the attitude like a cop or IRS worker that they want to catch you being bad. They want to ensure children are safe. Period. Those who do the work without those values are screwed up. We all think teachers are great, right? Nobody says all teachers are terrible people who want to abuse children just because we occassionally hear on the news that a teacher has done so. Why paint all social workers with the same brush? We're massively underpaid (think literally half of what teachers make and no summer breaks), work long hours and are frequently on call nights when there is any sort of emergency, go into dangerous and disgusting situations, sit up awake at night grieving for the children we see in such horrible situations (frequently with no way to truly improve things for them),and are viewed as people who ruin families, take children away from good families, leave them with bad families, etc. I mean, really... Do you think most workers take on those responsibilities because they want to yank kids from good families, or do you think, just maybe, we actually care about kids being safe?


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I hate that I can only thumbs up once.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> Hi APToddlerMom: Here's the problem....if you've been around MDC long enough (which I know you have, BTW, HI! Nice to see you!) and have been paying attention to the CPS threads as they come up......then you are aware of the RIDICULOUS things that have happened to people who DO let them in, thinking "what's the worst that could happen, I want to prove I have nothing to hide" - only to have the CPS worker cite "stained floors" and "not enough beds" (in a co-sleeping household) or other COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS things and end up having people dragged through long battles to prove that they aren't really secret monsters who abuse their children.
> 
> ...


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I had to thumbs up yours too...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Hi Averysmomma. There have been lots of threads I've agreed with you on, but I just totally disagree with you on this one. Yes, I've seen the billion threads on MDC about CPS and yes I do think that on occassion workers make very poor decisions regarding pulling kids from homes when it should not happen. I just happen to think that the majority of bad decisions made by social workers are leaving kids in dangerous situations. I think you and I view CPS very differently. My opinion is that their job and the work they do is protecting children and supporting families who would otherwise not be capable of parenting their children safely. You view them as an entity that walks all over parents'rights. Maybe if you saw .1% of the situations I've seen up close and personal, you would understand why ensuring child safety is a bigger priority than a parents' "rights" not to have to deal with CPS, have intrusive visits, go to therapy, take classes, etc. It sucks for those who go through the process without good reason, but probably for every time that happens, 100 kids in disgustingly abusive and neglectful situations are saved more heartache, pain, and hardship. To me, the benefits of CPS outweigh the negatives. Also, all those intrusive things CPS requires....like making parents do education...is really CPS doing its best to keep kids where they belong--with their families. Child safety within the biological family home is the absolute goal of CPS. "Ongoing workers" are assigned solely to help the family with any and all resources possible to strengthen the family unit and allow the children to remain in the family home. Yes, it sucks if you are like OP and don't need it, but the vast majority of families who work with an ongoing worker truly do need assistance. Ongoing workers regularly help connect families with WIC, food stamps, MA, childcare, employment, housing, parenting education, therapy, addiction services, etc. I've worked with many families who have ended up really liking me (imagine that) and being so grateful for the assistance they've received because so many of them really couldn't do it on their own. The outside stressors majorly impacted their parenting, and they were happy to have those stressors removed so they could become better parents.
> 
> ...


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I think the main reason MDC mamas are fearful of CPS is just b/c most of us don't live a very mainstream America life. I have an irrational fear of CPS based on my nursing my toddler (and now I'm pregnant too), co-sleep, I don't have any "kids snack/junk food", we don't vax, we have FC, we EC so yeah my kid is naked quite a bit or at least bottomless (with babylegs in the cold)...etc so the way we live I love and feel confident and comfortable with it, but I def know people who think I'm a total nut job. Some people view nursing a toddler as sexual abuse even...I guess I am just afraid of what the CPS workers opinion would be of our lifestyle.

When someone has so much power in their hands and you have no clue what they will think of your "unconventional" ways (even though they are really closer to real traditional ways..) you can't help but have some fear. I know Alma in Spain lost her baby for Bfing her at 15 m/o! Now true it's not America but I don't really believe this country is all that free and you just never know what will happen next...


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Like lmacerka, I'm giving a big thumbs-up to both both POVs here.

Under-reaction by social workers IS far more common then over-reaction. Keeping a child in the home if the home is remotely acceptable IS the goal of almost all social workers.

Even so, providing any information or access to an agent of the government when you're not legally obligated to do so IS morally revolting and potentially very dangerous. But we do it, sometimes, because CPS swings a very big club and we're afraid.

Social workers are mostly nice people working within a large bureaucracy who don't want to rock the boat, deviate from the plan, or do anything outside what they consider "normal." The OP's lawyer is advising her to "play along" because she knows that the OP's first priority is to get CPS out of her life. She knows that the supervisor in this case tends to second-guess her workers, and that the worker in question is a wimp. The lawyer doesn't think it's right. I don't think it's right. But the OP needs to protect her children, and in this case, that means that she is going to self-abrogate her civil rights.

I don't trust CPS workers...I don't trust any government employee when they are engaging me in their official capacity. The CPS worker is trying to decide if you are a good parent. The cop is trying to decide if you're a criminal. The IRS worker is trying to decide if you are in any way dodging paying what they think is "your fair share" - the list goes on. Never help a government employee with any information that could be used to hang you in a court of law.


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## AHodges (Oct 11, 2011)

APToddlerMama, I could not agree more. I think CPS is being unfairly maligned here. By law, they have to check up on every single report that gets made. They don't do this because they want to harass you, they do it because their job is to look out for children. And it's ridiculous to take the attitude that all they want to do is take kids away from their mothers. That's not true at all. It takes a lot of evidence to even begin to remove a child from the home, and most of the time CPS works hard to keep kids *with* their families.

People don't go into social work because they want to hurt people, they do it because they are trying to do some good in this world. The last thing they want to do is put more kids into the foster care system. And really, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't when it comes to taking children out of the home.


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## AHodges (Oct 11, 2011)

Also, there seems to be a misconception that CPS itself has the power to take your children away from you. In reality, you'd go to court over it and a judge would decide. CPS would share whatever evidence they had (which, if everything you say is true, they don't have any), but the judge would ultimately decide. I don't see them wanting someone to follow up within seven weeks as them "holding you" or anything of the sort. It will likely be a phone call or a short visit. The chance of them taking your children is very very slim. If they had reason and proof to do that, they'd have done it by now.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AHodges*
> 
> Also, there seems to be a misconception that CPS itself has the power to take your children away from you. In reality, you'd go to court over it and a judge would decide. CPS would share whatever evidence they had (which, if everything you say is true, they don't have any), but the judge would ultimately decide. I don't see them wanting someone to follow up within seven weeks as them "holding you" or anything of the sort. It will likely be a phone call or a short visit. The chance of them taking your children is very very slim. If they had reason and proof to do that, they'd have done it by now.


I've seen two situations where the children were removed at an initial visit, with no order. I'm in Canada, and I'm sure the rules are somewhat different, but I've never read anything that suggests this can't happen. I know CPS can't keep kids without an order, but I've seen them take them without an order. (Neither situation was a wonderful living environment, in one way or another...but there was no hint of immediate danger to the children in either case.)


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AHodges*
> 
> Also, there seems to be a misconception that CPS itself has the power to take your children away from you. In reality, you'd go to court over it and a judge would decide. CPS would share whatever evidence they had (which, if everything you say is true, they don't have any), but the judge would ultimately decide. I don't see them wanting someone to follow up within seven weeks as them "holding you" or anything of the sort. It will likely be a phone call or a short visit. The chance of them taking your children is very very slim. If they had reason and proof to do that, they'd have done it by now.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I've seen two situations where the children were removed at an initial visit, with no order. I'm in Canada, and I'm sure the rules are somewhat different, but I've never read anything that suggests this can't happen. I know CPS can't keep kids without an order, but I've seen them take them without an order. (Neither situation was a wonderful living environment, in one way or another...but there was no hint of immediate danger to the children in either case.)


In the US, social workers only remove kids immediately when there is a huge, immediate, pressing safety issue. Parents who refuse access to their children can be lumped into this category because the worker cannot verify that there isn't a huge issue and may have to rely on the initial report until they have access to the children. But, certainly judges are making a lot of decisions, and quickly, so if a child truly is not in danger, that child would be returned home per the judge's order or per the social worker realizing once they had access to the child that the child was safe. It isn't like a social worker can yank a kid out of a home and then have no courts and no judge, GAL, parents involved for months.

Also, Storm Bride, respectfully, you have no idea really what the report was that ended with those two families having CPS involvement. The vast majority of people don't air their dirty laundry. They cover it up. So, if mom got really ticked off and had a hard time controlling her anger, and happened to burn Junior with a cigarette, but feels nothing but shame and remorse about this, do you really think she's going to fess up to you? I can count on one hand the number of parents I've worked with who haven't truly loved their children and who haven't felt shame and remorse at the things they did that landed their family in "the system." I highly doubt the majority are willing to share secrets from their darkest moments. So, unless you lived with them, and shadowed their children 24/7, you cannot possibly be even close to certain that you know why they had contact with the CPS system. Assuming that you know the real circumstances when it is impossible for you to be certain, and assuming CPS is the big bad monster at fault for their childrens' removal does nothing but provoke worry in the people you share this story with and in you as well. Do yourself and everyone and favor and leave room for the probability that these parents weren't giving you a complete and accurate portrait of what occurred.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

OP, Did you feel confident that the lawyer was looking out for your best interests and reasonably effective? If so I think I'd sign if I was you. It's really sucky, though, and very scary.  I'm sorry this is happening and I hope, hope, hope it's over at the end of the seven weeks.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AHodges*
> 
> Also, there seems to be a misconception that CPS itself has the power to take your children away from you. In reality, you'd go to court over it and a judge would decide. CPS would share whatever evidence they had (which, if everything you say is true, they don't have any), but the judge would ultimately decide. I don't see them wanting someone to follow up within seven weeks as them "holding you" or anything of the sort. It will likely be a phone call or a short visit. The chance of them taking your children is very very slim. If they had reason and proof to do that, they'd have done it by now.


I think storm bride is right. They aren't going to leave a child in a situation they think is dangerous until they can get a court date. They'd take the child and then start proceedings, but I bet it would be days or weeks before it'd be before a judge. For those who know... I'm curious what sort of findings have to be made before a child is removed. Can a social worker look around a house, see the condition of a child, and just walk out with them? Or are there procedures to ensure that it is only done fairly (like maybe more than one CPS employee involved or an outside observer)?


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> In the US, social workers only remove kids immediately when there is a huge, immediate, pressing safety issue. Parents who refuse access to their children can be lumped into this category because the worker cannot verify that there isn't a huge issue and may have to rely on the initial report until they have access to the children. But, certainly judges are making a lot of decisions, and quickly, so if a child truly is not in danger, that child would be returned home per the judge's order or per the social worker realizing once they had access to the child that the child was safe. It isn't like a social worker can yank a kid out of a home and then have no courts and no judge, GAL, parents involved for months.
> 
> ...


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> OP, Did you feel confident that the lawyer was looking out for your best interests and reasonably effective?


Well, I wouldn't necessarily say looking out for our best interests, maybe, as much as everyone's (hers included, I guess). Something about her made me feel like she was just giving us the amount of time she thought we could afford (the half hour consult at $25) and sending us on our way with the advice we'd been able to afford...? But she was brutally realistic. On the intake form we were asked to give our monthly income. At that point she knew exactly what we needed to do. Sad, but true.

She did try to make it all go away for us. She tried to get a particular supervisor on the phone, and if she'd been able to she might have gotten to the bottom of the case and gotten her to just close it, I think. But she was unable to reach her while we were there, and she basically told us we'd have to retain her in order for her to work on it. Instead she gave us advice to ask penetrating questions about every single thing they say and that they want, to write it all down, to be vigilant and like we're looking out for ourselves. And to feel free to mention her and/or that we have spoken with an atty. Things that will show that we can't be pushed around and won't just blindly go for everything w/o doing our due diligence, etc. Also to ask the parent aid people when they think we'll be done with their services and try to push for sooner rather than later.

She did say that she is the only atty in our area that has been successful at fighting one particular dept/worker/type of case (something I can't quite remember). The man lost literally everything he had, but got his child back. It took 6 months and many tens of thousands of dollars. I could probably scrape together 4K.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Well, I wouldn't necessarily say looking out for our best interests, maybe, as much as everyone's (hers included, I guess). Something about her made me feel like she was just giving us the amount of time she thought we could afford (the half hour consult at $25) and sending us on our way with the advice we'd been able to afford...? But she was brutally realistic. On the intake form we were asked to give our monthly income. At that point she knew exactly what we needed to do. Sad, but true.
> 
> ...


Based on what you just said, I would beg, borrow or steal to get the retainer and let her help you make it go away. She's telling you the folks involved in your case are not the most trust worthy people to deal with, and then telling you to sign the BS form and do your best to advocate for your self, basically hope for the best. No way would I feel comfortable doing that.

I don't understand why you are assuming that the lawyer was just giving you the advice she thinks you can afford and leaving it at that. Are you saying that you can only afford $25 dollars to deal with all of this? Is her retainer $4000?

From our recent experience (the one and only experience) with lawyers and navigating a bankruptcy, I can tell you the best thing we did was fork over a $500 retainer, and let the lawyer guide us through the process. Everyone that knew we were going through this process thought we were nuts for spending the last of our savings to pay for a lawyer (total $1500) when we could have filed ourselves and spent only $150 (and who knows if that is all it would have cost to do it ourselves.) What did we learn? *So much of the law does not make moral sense.* So many weird issues come up that you just can't predict that a lawyer can shield you from. Some of those things may be in the future, not even on anyone's radar right now. A lawyer that is truly in your corner will let you sleep at night. DH and I were truly giddy on the way home from our appointment after we paid our retainer because the huge weight of stress was lifted.

Do you have family you can borrow from? A credit card? Valuables you can sell? A church group you can ask for help?


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I think it's safe to say we do all have a small amount of fear due to CPS. When my girls were little we had scheduled their well baby appointments at the same time and were given two different doctors. One that was our normal Ped and the other was new. DH went with our oldest to see the new one while I went with our youngest to see the old Ped. The rooms were side by side. Halfway through our visits the new Ped came over to talk to the old Ped while I was in there about her concerns. DD1 had bruises on her shins, scrapes on her feet, and no tan lines. She told the Old ped she was calling "it" in. She felt something was not right with the situation. Our old Ped asked her the name of the patient. She said DD1's name. The old Peds' face got red and he marched out into the hallway for privacy I guess, but instead berrated her for jumping to conclusions. DD1 had an issue with her left foot, it rolled under at the toes and our old Ped had suggested we keep her in soft leather shoes, (robeez) to allow the foot to form with out pressure. This did cause her some issues in the beginning but eventually her foot grew properly and her 5 yr check up with x-rays showed the foot was the same as the other. The shin bruises were from our deck. The no tan lines... she was allowed to run around the back yard nude. She didn't potty train completely til almost 6. He knew this, he had been through it all with us, calmed our worries and advised us every step of the way. At the time DD2 had just started to walk and she was 2. Again something he had helped us through. Turned out she was lazy, seriously just didn't feel like it. However the new Ped wasn't convinced and was going to call anyway. Thus began a decent fight in the hallway between a rotund old asian man and a scrawny wet behind the ears female.

Two people. Both viewed the issues differently, one didn't know all the facts the other put two and two together and knew DD1 her entire life. He knew the why to everything. I'm trying to point out how easy it is for someone to come up with all sorts of terrible things and literally jump to conclusions. Had the old Ped not been there we would have been waiting for MP's to show up. Instead he asked us to leave against her will and told us he'd be calling us to apologize for the stress the new Dr. had put on DD1. Gave DD1 a hug asked her how his little "warrior" was doing and sent us on our way.

People have power of your life in ways you can't shake. Why shouldn't that be an issue? Why should we just take it? We are allowed to call BS, if you tell people to sit back and enjoy the ride you're telling people they have no power over their own lives. Government workers are not all good nor are they all bad. They may be over worked or they may not be. My friend who is now a Capt in the Army was a Social worker in Floridia during the time social workers lost track of one too many kids. He admitted most people would come into work show their face then take off for the day. Of course that was his office. Not all may be that way. But if just one office is that way that's one too many. My kids do not need to get lost in the system. My kids do not need to be part of the system. My grandmother is a foster and from her reports of 30 yrs of fostering the hard to place, most of the damage was done after the kids were put in foster care.

Paint the whole system pretty if you like, but the rest of us know it's not. There are too many factors to consider.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Ugh... I only have a minute and I'm gonna be gone all day, but I just wanted to say... You should do a little more work on maybe getting a lawyer. Are you near a law school (or is there even one in your state)? If you are, you should call them and see if they have a clinic. Clinics are free and a great resource. If they don't have the right kind of clinic for you, you might be able to talk to someone in whatever clinic they do have and ask their opinion of the "public defender" (I don't think that's quite what it's called, either, that would be for criminal cases). Ime (and I'm a lawyer) public defenders are often quite good. I actually haven't run into a public defender office that wasn't top notch. (Otoh, I've mostly been in pretty big cities, so I'm not sure outside of NY, DC, LA...) There are also sometimes other public interest-y organizations that can help you (ask the law school if they know, also you can call the criminal public defender and ask them, and also ask their opinion about using whatever the "public defender" is for family cases).


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> Instead she gave us advice to ask penetrating questions about every single thing they say and that they want, to write it all down, to be vigilant and like we're looking out for ourselves. And to feel free to mention her and/or that we have spoken with an atty. Things that will show that we can't be pushed around and won't just blindly go for everything w/o doing our due diligence, etc. Also to ask the parent aid people when they think we'll be done with their services and try to push for sooner rather than later.
> 
> She did say that she is the only atty in our area that has been successful at fighting one particular dept/worker/type of case (something I can't quite remember). The man lost literally everything he had, but got his child back. It took 6 months and many tens of thousands of dollars. I could probably scrape together 4K.


OP, she has given you fantastic advice. The man who "lost" his child and got him back was in a different situation from you in that his child was out of the home already. Quite frankly, it is really hard to say if this attorney deserves credit for him being returned home or not. The majority of children who are placed in foster care are reunified with their families. This is the norm. Permanent foster care/adoption is the exception to the rule. Can't recall stats off the top of my head, but I want to say 80% of kids go home. So it is really hard to say if this boy would have been in the 20% and the attorney really helped, or if he would have gone home anyhow. Personally, if I had been this guy, I would have used my energy to meet CPS's conditions rather than fight it in court. They basically have a checklist for families to complete to have children returned. Anyhow, If I were in your shoes, I would put that in the back of my mind and keep my money in my pocket unless it became very clear I really needed it.

Right now, you are looking at having to do 7 weeks of ongoing services, no? So 7 weeks from now, you should be done with this process if you play along. If it makes you feel better, don't sign the document, or cross out the parts that make you feel uncomfortable. I would ask this attorney what the purpose would be in hiring her today. Everyone is screaming from MDC get a lawyer get a lawyer. Okay. So what would she do for you today? Get your case closed immediately? How? How fast? In less than 7 weeks? No way. That will not happen.

CPS isn't going to be easily pushed by an attorney when all ("all" to them, obviously it is a way bigger deal to you understandably) they are asking is to be allowed in your home and do their little parenting plan. A judge is highly unlikely to see a point in closing your case immediately no matter what your attorney says because he has to cover his own behind too. Don't forget that like CPS, judges are personally responsible for outcomes. So when the CPS worker says she feels she needs to keep your case open for two months or whatnot to ensure your childrens' safety, the judge is almost undoubtedly going to say "okay" regardless of what sort of argument your lawyer has prepared. And what argument would she prepare? I'd ask that. The judge is not going to want to feel personally responsible for having a case closed two months early because if he/she regularly does this, it is sure to come back to haunt him/her as CPS typically truly does have very good reason to keep a case open. Not only that, but social workers spend a lot of time in court. Many judges really respect the social worker's opinion and understand that they have studied child welfare and that lawyers have studied *law.* I haven't personally seen any successful cases unless CPS majorly screwed up. I would like to say they have in your case, but really they have not at this point. They've totally overreacted, stressed you out, majorly inconvenienced you, intruded on your life, stressed out your kids, kept you up nights worrying--but they have not taken your children from you without reason. From the judge's POV, your children are remaining in your home and you are being inconvenienced as everyone ensures your children are safe so s/he and your worker can feel good about closing your case in a couple months. They would rather put you through the stress of this and ensure your kids are really safe than close your case and end up with a bad outcome.

By all means, if things sour along the way with this ongoing worker and there is any indication that you truly are at risk of losing your kids, I would do anything in my power to hire this attorney. Anything. I just don't think you are there yet. Breathe. You can get through these weeks of ongoing services by being cooperative. 99% chance your case will be closed. If it is not, then think about plan B. But right now realize you're a loving and capable mama, who has been put in a terrible spot, but that if you can just hang on a little while longer, your life will almost undoubtedly go back to normal without you forking over 10k.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> With respect, you have no idea what you're talking about, and are jumping to conclusions. *I know exactly what happened, and what the allegations were, in both cases*. In one of them, I was in court during the proceedings and also read the affidavit from the key "witness" in the case. In the other, I was interviewed by the case worker when they were trying to determine whether the children could safely be returned to their home, *and she was discussing the "reasons" for their concerns*. The entire thing was a pathetic joke, and those kids went through a whole lot of unnecessary emotional turmoil.
> 
> Oops - hadn't read your post. I actually do know the "secrets from the their darkest moments", and I don't happen to think either of these situations were terrific for the kids. I also happen to be absolutely sure, knowing the families before, during and after their involvement with CPS, that the "help" they received did them a lot of damage. Do yourself and everyone you share the "social workers are wonderful people" spiel with a favour, and consider that maybe they do a whole lot of damage that they never see. I have good reasons to be concerned about CPS (and have had my own very negative experience with them...and all they did was come to my door, at the worst possible moment for me - no file was ever even opened). The social workers I've interacted with have been a mixed bag, and some of them were, admittedly, wonderful people. Some of them were on an obvious power trip, and were obviously punishing families who didn't live the way they thought those famlies should live. That scares me. They are out there, and they're not the tiny little minority that many seem to think.


Sorry. I just don't really buy it. You were in court? For 20 minutes as a witness or the entire time? I cannot imagine you would have been present for the duration of the proceedings as I have never heard of anything but a closed hearing in cases like this with children. Which would mean you did not hear everything.

As for knowing their deepest secrets, I don't buy that either. It is possible, I'm sure, but you will never know what you don't know, nor will I. So you say the situations were not "terrific" for kids? That is another thing. There can be widely varying opinions on what is unacceptable in a situation or not. For instance, the mother of a good friend of mine felt it was okay for the two of them to live with a sex predator who sexually abused my friend, as long as she (the mother) tried to "cure" him. I know people who think that it is okay to beat the crap out of your kids, leave bruises, etc., as long as it is part of a punishment and not just for "no reason." So when you state that in your eyes, you don't think these kids were in terrific situations but they shouldn't have been pulled out of their homes, it is hard for me to understand what that means. Does it mean they ate Cheetos for all their meals or does it mean mom left 1 year old Junior to go out drinking every night but she did leave him in his crib where he couldn't get out and get hurt, so it was okay? I'm not looking for an answer from you. I'm just making the point that your judgement may be very different from someone else's on what is and is not acceptable.

You're right. Social workers are a definite mixed bag. Luckily they work within a system. Nothing happens in a vacuum. They have supervisors. The child has a GAL. Therapists make recommendations. The judge ultimately decides the fate of these cases. So, while it is possible to get a really crappy social worker (though I think that is a small number), there are luckily safeguards in place that make truly unfair negative outcomes the exception to the rule.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Random people have been in court, for the entire time (the whole five minutes they give you), during my cps case. So there is no reason to assume that StormBride is lying. My ex husband's family likes to come and be nosy during my court hearings. The judge allows it as long as you state your name and relation to the child (and family friend seems to be good enough).

Just because you know how things work in your area...doesn't mean that all of CPS everywhere else works like that too.

My child has a GAL who has never met or spoken with her, and just repeats what CPS wants him to say. He says stuff that anyone who actually knows her, knows isn't how she feels or what she thinks. There is also a judge who I have never once been allowed to speak to. Not say a word, submit a statement, nothing. Everyone else is allowed to speak to her except for me. She has also never met my child. I have a public defender who is allowed to speak for me, but he never has much to say (too busy, too many cases). He didn't feel it was important to correct the social workers lies (blatant lies that she could have never proven, even if she wanted to), and since I am not allowed to say anything at all, the judge just believes whatever she reads in the report (which apparently can be any kind of fiction that someone feels like writing down). So yeah...in my case it kind of did all happen in a vacuum. Everybody is busy covering the original social workers butt, and their own. All while nobody actually listened to anything that my daughter or I had to say. Where is the justice in that?

Oh but I must be lying or secretly burning my kid with cigarettes since she was removed from my home.







Because social workers are just awesome, loving people, who never screw up.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Sorry. I just don't really buy it. You were in court? For 20 minutes as a witness or the entire time? I cannot imagine you would have been present for the duration of the proceedings as I have never heard of anything but a closed hearing in cases like this with children. Which would mean you did not hear everything.
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Sorry. I just don't really buy it. You were in court? For 20 minutes as a witness or the entire time? I cannot imagine you would have been present for the duration of the proceedings as I have never heard of anything but a closed hearing in cases like this with children. Which would mean you did not hear everything.
> 
> ...


ETA: I'd also like to point out that my reply was to your assertion that I didn't know the allegations that created the CPS involvement for these two families. Whether or not I know "everything" about their cases isn't even relevant to the question of whether or not I know the allegations that were levelled against them. I absolutely do know what the allegations were, in both cases.

And, I'll also mention that the "judgment" issue is one of the many reassons why I don't trust CPS. Do you have a clear line of where crappy parenting stops and out and out abusive/neglectful parenting begins? No, you don't. Since "judgment" plays a huge role, there are absolutely valid reasons for people who choose unusual lifestyles, or people who have low incomes, or people with a variety of other "we don't fit in" type issues to be afraid of social workers. I've seen the absolute contempt one worker had for the children on her caseload (the same one who lied in court, actually - she was the worker for one of my friend's in high school...and the other case was several years later, so she had lots of time to damage families, and was still being treated as a credible witness in the case I was involved in). I've seen/heard another worker dismiss everything that came out of someone's mouth (the person was peripheral to the case at hand) as soon as he heard where that person lived...while paying respectful attention to what I said, because I had a "good" address. The idea of ever having my family's future, and my children's well-being, subject to that kind of judgment is terrifying. It just is.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyCatLady*
> 
> *Random people have been in court, for the entire time* (the whole five minutes they give you), during my cps case. So there is no reason to assume that StormBride is lying. My ex husband's family likes to come and be nosy during my court hearings. The judge allows it as long as you state your name and relation to the child (and family friend seems to be good enough).


Are you sure they weren't attorney's waiting for their case to be heard? Where I have been to family court attorney's are allowed in the courtroom (that's how the judge knows that they are ready to be heard), but anyone that doesn't have a license to practice law cannot be in the court room until their case is called.

As for family being allowed, that sounds really bizarre to me. Have you ever asked that they be excluded? You could just say that they are potential witnesses if there is ever an actual trial, and for them to be included in the preliminary appearances would be prejudicial.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

I don't really care who all the people are. I am sure that some of them have reasons for being there. Privacy is honestly the least of my concerns after everything that my daughter and I have been through. I do know though, that you can bring in friends or family to witness everything during court if you want to (at least where I live). I have done it, and people on the "other side" have done it. Just trying to point out that Stormbride wasn't lying because it can be done. But you are right, I do have the "right" to ask them to be removed. I just never did because it was low on my priority list after losing my six year old for no good reason yk?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Are you sure they weren't attorney's waiting for their case to be heard? Where I have been to family court attorney's are allowed in the courtroom (that's how the judge knows that they are ready to be heard), but anyone that doesn't have a license to practice law cannot be in the court room until their case is called.
> 
> As for family being allowed, that sounds really bizarre to me. Have you ever asked that they be excluded? You could just say that they are potential witnesses if there is ever an actual trial, and for them to be included in the preliminary appearances would be prejudicial.


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## tooraloora (Oct 15, 2010)

Who's allowed in the courtroom varies depending on where you are. In Kentucky, I was involved in a case (not against me), and all juvenile cases were in a closed courtroom. The only time anyone other than CPS, the GAL, and the lawyers were allowed in was when it was someone's turn to speak to the judge. In Florida, I've gone for two separate cases (one mine), and they may (or may not) ask who a person is, and being a friend is indeed good enough. People are called into the courtroom in batches, so the case is being heard by not only those involved, but anyone they've brought, anyone interested in the case, everyone else with a case coming up in that block, everyone they've brought, and anyone interested in those cases. Asking that someone not be allowed in doesn't fly. I know, because I tried.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyCatLady*
> 
> I don't really care who all the people are. I am sure that some of them have reasons for being there. Privacy is honestly the least of my concerns after everything that my daughter and I have been through. I do know though, that you can bring in friends or family to witness everything during court if you want to (at least where I live). I have done it, and people on the "other side" have done it. Just trying to point out that Stormbride wasn't lying because it can be done. But you are right, I do have the "right" to ask them to be removed. I just never did because it was low on my priority list after losing my six year old for no good reason yk?


Wow, that is definitely not allowed in NYC. In NYC I wanted to bring my mom in, but she was required to stay outside. Literally no one but the parties, their lawyers, and any other lawyers that are trying to get their case heard.

I was just putting it out there that attorney's generally wait in the back of the courtroom to wait to be called by the judge - so that the judge knows they are ready. They aren't random.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

Storm Bride is Canadian, as am I. Some of the differences in how things are handled could be due to different laws and different child protection agencies. Here, we have Community Services and Children's Aid. One odd thing I bumped into as a family support worker, for example, was that while either agency would know if a parent was on the Child Abuse Registry, they don't know any other information from each other's agency. So, Children's Aid, for example, could know that a child's behavior was due to a documented disability, but Community Services wouldn't. Also, Children's Aid is a not-for -profit and Community Services is government run. Hiring and documenting practices can be somewhat different between the two. And anecdotally, people in the field have told me that  child apprehension can happen somewhat more easily in most of Canada than the US.

APToddlerMama, I agree with most of what you have posted, and I don't think the OP is in a situation where it is in her best interest to be uncooperative or assume the worst about the social workers or the system she's dealing with. Her lawyer's advice seems sound, and she really is doing all the right things, so in less than two months this will most likely be done with. I just wanted to point out that Storm Bride's perspective may be different due to where she lives. The US and Canada have much in common, but there are some major differences in our legal and social situations that may be affecting point of view, here.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Op - do you have family the kids can stay with if they are apprehended? I think most places prefer kinship placement if possible. While the idea of apprehension is horrible, I know for me it would be easier on everyone if the kids were with someone I know and trust.

I do not think anything you said at this point means the kids will be apprehended, but I understand your worry! I have only known a couple of families with CPS involved and all of them had to sign "plans".

IIRC - your plan asks you to go to parenting classes? No biggie - go to parenting classes. I would cross out some of the wording if you feel the need to. Example: Due to defeciencies in parenting, the smiths have agreed to take parenting classes. Initial anything you change. As for whether or not you need a lawyer - it is a hard call, isn't it? Most cases are opened and closed and no one needs a lawyer. In a small amount of cases, though, things go south and people probably do need a lawyer. In which case you get one, money be danged (sell thing, debt, etc) If I were you I would wait for signs that things were not going well, and then get one.

APT and LROM - do either of you have signs of what things look like if things are heading south/if an apprehension is near?


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Op - do you have family the kids can stay with if they are apprehended? I think most places prefer kinship placement if possible. While the idea of apprehension is horrible, I know for me it would be easier on everyone if the kids were with someone I know and trust.
> 
> ...










Great idea! Knowing a back-up plan for worst case scenario would be a relief. And that's a good example of how to handle signing the parenting plan document. Make sure anything crossed out is just a single line (not scribbled over) and as stated, initialed, as per legal documenting criteria.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

The problem is with waiting to hire a good CPS lawyer is that by the time you need one (if you ever do), so much damage has already been done. And at that point it's very hard for a lawyer to go through and fix/un-do all of that damage. So really a lawyer from the get go is better if possible (and if your gut feels that it's necessary). Because they can usually nip this stuff in the bud before the parenting "plans" are put into place and all the drama that can follow.

Lawyers prevent a lot of the bad from happening. It's an outside source holding CPS accountable for their actions (because I don't believe for a second that public defenders do the same thing). Though I realize that hiring one is not always feasible or possible. In my case though, if I had a lawyer I would have never lost my daughter. So I personally can't help but recommend them to people going through this.


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## tooraloora (Oct 15, 2010)

Another option if you truly can't afford a lawyer is an advocate. I took that route and I'm positive that it saved my case. Just be careful who you pick. There are some out there working as advocates who may make matters worse rather than better. This woman was not some nut on a crusade against CPS. She had a good reputation as a clinical social worker, a lot of experience and background with CPS (mostly positive), and she was appalled at how my case was going, so she took a time out to help me (without financial compensation). Her presence on my behalf made a huge difference. There was a lot of really shady stuff going on. The advocate was a sharp lady, and I wouldn't have been able to get through that crap without her. She didn't stay with me for the whole case as she had prior obligations, but she went to court with me once, stirred things up for a few weeks, and made herself available to make phone calls for me when I encountered problems, and that was enough. She had CPS walking on eggshells. If matters take a turn for the worse, that may be an option for you. I couldn't afford a decent lawyer, but I imagine having had a good lawyer from the get go would likely have headed off a lot of the torment my family went through. If there's any way you can come up with the money, it may be worth it. Things seem to go better with CPS when they know they have someone holding them accountable for their actions.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FarmerBeth*
> 
> Storm Bride is Canadian, as am I. Some of the differences in how things are handled could be due to different laws and different child protection agencies. Here, we have Community Services and Children's Aid. One odd thing I bumped into as a family support worker, for example, was that while either agency would know if a parent was on the Child Abuse Registry, they don't know any other information from each other's agency. So, Children's Aid, for example, could know that a child's behavior was due to a documented disability, but Community Services wouldn't. Also, Children's Aid is a not-for -profit and Community Services is government run. Hiring and documenting practices can be somewhat different between the two. And anecdotally, people in the field have told me that child apprehension can happen somewhat more easily in most of Canada than the US.
> 
> APToddlerMama, I agree with most of what you have posted, and I don't think the OP is in a situation where it is in her best interest to be uncooperative or assume the worst about the social workers or the system she's dealing with. Her lawyer's advice seems sound, and she really is doing all the right things, so in less than two months this will most likely be done with. I just wanted to point out that Storm Bride's perspective may be different due to where she lives. The US and Canada have much in common, but there are some major differences in our legal and social situations that may be affecting point of view, here.


I'm sure there are differences, but I don't think they manifest at the national level, exactly. I don't remember the current name of our service (it's changed quite a few times in my life, which is why I just shorthand to "CPS" - everyone knows what that means), but I do know that it's operated at the provincial, not the federal, level.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Op - do you have family the kids can stay with if they are apprehended? I think most places prefer kinship placement if possible. While the idea of apprehension is horrible, I know for me it would be easier on everyone if the kids were with someone I know and trust.
> 
> ...


This sounds like a good way to approach this.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Good news! (I think) I spoke to the new worker by phone today, at last. She scheduled to come out on Wed afternoon (yay, scheduled visit!) to "assess" and meet with myself and my husband. Then, I can't remember her exact wording, but she went over the positives, like the house was not a concern for the first worker, and other things, and said something to the effect of it's possible the case could be closed early. I'm not holding my breath, but I wouldn't be mad at it, either. She also said that it's fine for us to decline the service (the cleaning thing), but she just wanted to make sure that I understood that "if the case is open for several weeks and in that time we determine that there is imminent harm to the children we'll have to get a court order and MAKE you participate in services, and they would then not be voluntary." Sounded like she just wanted to make sure I knew that they are voluntary now, but if I don't keep it up they won't be. I'll keep it up for the rest of my life to keep them out of my life!

So, I have hope that we really have been doing everything right and that it will soon be over. Just 7 more visits. Fingers crossed for Wed.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

OP, I really hope it all works out positively for you. You are right not to hold your breath yet though. I have been promised so many things by cps that they never came through on. There always seems to be somebody, somewhere who can overrule what a worker tells you. I would definitely keep the house extra clean before she gets there. I would also take pictures of it (with dates) on the day that she is there so that you have proof later if her opinion on what "good" housekeeping is differs from yours.

Best of luck and I'm sending all sorts of good vibes your way.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

I hope it stays positive! My fingers are crossed for you.

I gotta say, my house has been quite a bit cleaner since this thread started. I am a complete slob, but I'd say that even at my very worst, no mess I've ever created could have been an imminent threat to children.







A lot of the motivation for my cleaning the last, oh, eight years or so, has been that I think having a reasonably tidy house is good for the mental health of oneself and one's children, but I cannot imagine how bad a mess would have to be for *being taken from your family* to be a healthier option than living in it. I just had to get that out.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I would seriously have a maid come out ASAP and scrub the damn walls! Take all the dated pics, keep your receipt from the maid, go food shopping right before the visit and keep the receipt...anything that will help. Just document the heck out of your life right now so you have something in case anything goes wary.

Sounds like good news though! Maybe the other worker told this one she was going to close it but the supervisor wouldn't let her? If they are used to the supervisor being that way I'm sure it's no surprise and they know how she is KWIM?


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I would seriously have a maid come out ASAP and scrub the damn walls!


Good idea.

OP, if you do have money to throw around, before I spent it on an attorney, I would spend it hiring someone to come clean or keep an eye on the kids while you clean. If for no other reason than to take some stress off of yourself, you know? Maybe you would be able to breathe a little easier if you knew that every Wednesday or whatever, someone would be able to help you clean up. Usually ongoing workers keep their schedules the same so you could always hire someone to come the day before she normally comes. Not that you need to do that... just an idea.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> *I would seriously have a maid come out ASAP and scrub the damn walls! Take all the dated pics, keep your receipt from the maid, go food shopping right before the visit and keep the receipt...anything that will help. Just document the heck out of your life right now so you have something in case anything goes wary.*
> 
> Sounds like good news though! Maybe the other worker told this one she was going to close it but the supervisor wouldn't let her? If they are used to the supervisor being that way I'm sure it's no surprise and they know how she is KWIM?


This is a good idea!


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

She's closing it! She's closing it! I organized and uncluttered my BUTT off this week. Shampooed the carpet and everything. She did the tour, she asked if it had looked considerably different when the first worker was here and I said no. She looked baffled that there had even been the referral to "services" in the first place.

She was "concerned" that there was no crib for the baby. She said she's seen people "and I don't think this is a concern here, but I've seen people roll over on their babies and suffocate them. It's a big safety concern. Do you think that you could get a pack and play and set it up in here? If you could get that here and show me that it's set up then I would know (she said this in a wink-wink way) that she had a separate place to sleep and I could close the case." We bought it tonight! I'm to call her to let her know and she'll come by tomorrow to verify we have it set up and then she'll close it!

She did say that they could do a drop-by visit at some point, and if the house was considerably different than what she'd seen then they may have to reopen it (I didn't know they could do that once the case was closed...), but I guarantee it won't be! And I'm still not counting my chickens until I get something in writing, but I'm SO ready to exhale. Thank the Heavens, or whomever gave us this wonderful worker!

And, thank all you lovely women who supported us through this. I appreciated the conversation, from both sides (it helped me not be totally terrified and keep my cool to hear some good of them, as I've never before heard anything good), and the support and advice. I really don't know how we'd have made it through without it.

I'll update again when it's for sure closed (I'd assume I get some piece of paper or something for confirmation) so we can all have a virtually party.  Don't uncross those fingers just yet, ladies.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> She's closing it! She's closing it! I organized and uncluttered my BUTT off this week.

















So happy for you (and good for you for being so on top of things) Way to go, mama!


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

thats wonderfui, im so happy for you!!!


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Wonderful news! It sounds like she was doing her job well. She just needed to verify that the kids were okay and their living conditions are good.

What a relief. I'm sorry you had to endure all that stress, but at least you can be rest assured that CPS looks out for kids. They just want them taken care of, which, sadly, isn't always the case.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 


> but at least you can be rest assured that CPS looks out for kids. They just want them taken care of, which, sadly, isn't always the case.


Comments like that can really sting if you've lost kids to CPS for unjustified reasons. My daughter was taken care of just fine...and yet was still removed.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gabbyraja*
> 
> She's closing it! She's closing it! I organized and uncluttered my BUTT off this week. Shampooed the carpet and everything. She did the tour, she asked if it had looked considerably different when the first worker was here and I said no. She looked baffled that there had even been the referral to "services" in the first place.
> 
> ...


I am so happy for you!!! Congrats!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Thats GREAT news mama!! Show her the pack n play - put a sheet on the mattress or something so that she can say it looks slept in, and maybe a blanket if your baby is old enough to have one (according to whoever it is that says baby's can't have blankets until they're "old enough").

You should get something in writing - ask the worker when you see her again. In as casual a way as you can, something like, "Will I get a letter telling me the case has been closed? I'd appreciate having one, just for peace of mind" or something like that. I got one, and you bet I still have it in all my custody battle papers. She'll tell you how long that will take, and after you have that letter in hand, you don't have to let them back in.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

in many cases you DONT get a letter saying they are closing the case.

i kept calling her till she told me the case was closed. and i trusted her coz she and i became friends enough that she asked me to apply for a job with them. whenever i had questions if it would look like an offence or not, i'd call her office and ask if it was ok. i did that for the next 3 years. and then we lost contact.

i am so hear about the worker's attitude. hopefully it wont be long before she does a surprise visit and then closes the case.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

SUPER YAY! I'm so excited for you and so happy for you. Such good news! What a blessing! Keep up the good work mama!


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## Amatullah0 (Apr 7, 2009)

I do have to say, since the beginning of this thread, I have become considerably less afraid/pessimistic of CPS. I think there is more at play than JUST this thread, but the stories and comments in this thread(as well as the OPs happy ending) helped too. (congrats OP!)

I've also decluttered my house significantly. I no longer have any trouble keeping it clean. The entire apartment used to have clean clothing waiting to be folded laying all over the floor. And toys, and random papers, and piles of dirty dishes in the sink. I love how clean my house is, and that it's clean all the time too. Actually, one of the posts in this thread made me worry that maybe my house doesn't look "lived in" enough, but I doubt that's the case in actuality. I no longer feel defeated in my own home! yay! And it's a nice feeling being able to invite anyone in who drops by (or even open the door without being embarrassed when the post man comes), because the house is always as clean as it would be if we were expecting company.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

OP I'm jumping out of my boots excited for you!!! GREAT UPDATE! <3


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

That's wonderful, gabbyraja! Yay!


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)




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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Great news!! That restores my faith in the system just a little bit


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyCatLady*
> 
> Random people have been in court, for the entire time (the whole five minutes they give you), during my cps case. So there is no reason to assume that StormBride is lying. My ex husband's family likes to come and be nosy during my court hearings. The judge allows it as long as you state your name and relation to the child (and family friend seems to be good enough).


As a foster parent, I've sat in on many, many, court cases. Our courtrooms are open. Anyone can sit in and listen to anything they want to. I've observed adjudications, reunifications, case plan changes, terminations, etc.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

OP that is wonderful wonderful news!!! I hope this is the end of this whole situation for you. Thanks fur updating us, definitely let us know when you get confirmation it's actually closed.


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Well, I waited for her all the next day, then called. She said she'd be out to see the pack n play on Fri, but no-showed. I just waited, keeping it immaculate in here. Then this Thur I wrenched my shoulder and three of the kids got sick and things kind of fell apart a little. So, I decided to stop waiting and called her to ask her to please just come out so we can get this over with. She called back and left me a message. I saved it and will never delete it. She decided to just go ahead and close the case w/o seeing the pack n play! It's done! It's OVER! Yay! Just had to come and share. Thank you again, everyone.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Great news! (Well, except the parts about your shoulder and everyone getting sick...)


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Great news! Do you still have to do parenting classes, and work with the other organization even once your case is officially closed?


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Well, everyone's well now, and I didn't even care when I got that great news! Nope, no parenting classes or anything. We're DONE!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Fantastic news!!!! And nice to hear your kids are better too.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

Bravo!


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Great news!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

That is really wonderful! Congrats on holding onto your sanity through this and I hope your shoulder is better...


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Great news! I just read all ten pages of the thread. What a headache. Glad it worked out in your favor.


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