# We've done everything "right", so how come 3yo still fights sleep?!?



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

We have worked our collective butt off to make sleep time a peaceful and pleasant time in our family . . . we co-slept from day 1, never did CIO, established a consistent and calming bedtime routine (complete with bath, stories, songs, snuggles, rocking, nursing - whatever worked at each developmental stage) and my 3 year old ds is STILL fighting sleep like a champ! He actually appears to DREAD going to bed and as soon as he senses that we're moving in that direction, gets all ramped up and manic and mischievous. Then pulls out every SINGLE stall tactic known to child-kind, often ending in a tantrum. This is a peaceful, happy, precocious child, not particularly prone to melting down at other times. Even when the routine goes off smoothly, it usually takes an hour for him to fall asleep.

So what the he!! went wrong?!? I thought that our peaceful-easy approach to sleep was supposed to help him form positive sleep associations! I've done everything EVER suggested by Dr. Sears and now I think he owes me an explanation!







: My mom, who has wanted us to force more independence since he was tiny, thinks that by always keeping him company at bedtime we have convinced him that he cannot be alone -- that he is not ABLE to do it himself. She may be right, but I can't see a way out now, esp now that's he's developed a fear of the dark (yes, we have nite lites) AND we have a new baby.

Anyone able to shed light on why this happens with some children? (please, puh-leeze tell me it has happened with other children!!!!)

I'm about ready to advise new parents to never go down the path we did, bc it seems like we have created quite a little monster here -- an AP'd monster, but a monster just the same!


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## missmoneypenny (Sep 1, 2004)

okay, i'm right there with you. i just posted about the same thing except my kiddo is 5! i have that same feeling that we did everything "right" and instinctual but now everything is out of control! i will be monitoring both our posts for replies!!







:
good luck, mama!


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

OMG missmoneypenny, two more years of this and I may head for the hills!


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

HEY YOU JUST DESCRIBED MY SON!!








There was a brief period of about 3 months where I would put him in bed and read a few books and then lay with him until he drifted off. But that stopped when his sister wanted to join us and would get all rowdy and then they would fight over books. If we didn't let her join us, she stood at the door and threw a tantrum.
So then their dad started driving them to sleep. Now he's created this driving around sleep addiction. ARGH! I was newly pregnant and exhausted and couldn't handle the fighting over books or tantrums and he couldn't figure out a way to keep our daughter from getting upset over not being a part of her brother's bedtime. So he loads them up in the car every night at 8:30 and they fall asleep in about 10 minutes. I think he likes the drive because we get to talking about things and I don't get distracted by housework or other things and neither does he.
But I HATE that we're driving around and using gas and putting ourselves at risk of an accident (although we take a pretty deserted route) to put the kids to bed every night. But it works and he's going to be in charge of bedtime soon enough when the new baby is here.

So anyway, just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. My son suddenly goes berserk at bedtime and runs all around the house and throws things and starts hollering. It's like he doesn't want to miss a moment of the day. It's very exhausting for me. Despite my misgivings about the car method, I tend to give in. But if I don't have that option, I have to let him wind down on his own. I can't force the bed issue or it definitely ends in tantrums.
So we read. Then we get some warm milk. Then we read. Then we go to the bathroom. Then we read. Then we lay there for a while.Then he starts jumping on me and kicks me somewhere it hurts and I get pissed off. Then he feeds off that and starts going wild. Then I almost lose it so I leave him in his room alone. Then he feels bad and tells me he'll "soft" me instead of jump on me. Then I lay there with him and caress his face a bit and he finally drifts off. It is getting better so I can only guess/hope that he's growing out of it and it will get easier. It was his choice to sleep in his own room. He had the option of having his bed in our room right up against ours so it was one huge bed. But he really likes having his own room. So I can only follow his lead and assume he'll eventually want to sleep.
He's starting to understand that when it's dark we sleep and when the sun is out we're awake. So that's helping too. I'm hoping that when it's summer and getting dark at 10, that he won't take me literally. hehe. There are mornings where he wakes up and runs out of his room a la Kramer and announces dramatically "But I don't want to go to sleep!" without realizing that he's been asleep all night.


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## jlspalding (May 4, 2004)

OK, after two years, I am officially giving up. The AP thing, that is. I have a child, now 27 months, who I have never been able to put down to sleep since I brought her home from the hospitol. NEVER. I mean it. I wore her in a sling for 10 months, and then she napped ON ME, always. I read NCSS, I took advice, I combed these boards. I have tried everything. Even as a newborn, she would only sleep about 35 minutes at a time. I tried sneaking away so many times to get a break, I just gave up every time. So after napping ON me or in the car, then she gave up naps completely at 19 months. Oh, she still needs them, it just means that either she will drop asleep at 5pm and then stay up till 11 or so. OR, she won't nap and be absolutely tantrummy and miserable to deal with for half the day, especially around dinnertime.

But then my husband wanted to separate in June, and I have been on my own for four months, and I have to do everything by myself. And her sleep habits, or lack of, just did me in. So, I am letting her CIO. I discovered that she can put herself to sleep, she just won't. And then I discovered that she would NOT sleep if I got into bed with her. Not for naps first, then for bedtime. She would play and play, then she started getting out of bed. I had times when the only way I could get her to nap was to hold her while she screamed and cried. And that could take 40 minutes.

I haven't had a sliver of the breaks that most Moms have had. I haven't seen a movie in over 2 years. I haven't done a single thing for myself, and if this doesn't change, the anger, fury and resentment is going to kill me. I used to breastfeed DD for 3 or 4 hours to get her to go to sleep. I have been pretty irritated at AP, because for me while it hasn't hurt my daughter, it HAS hurt me. By the way, if you read Dr. Sears book on discipline, he talks about leaving children to sleep, and establishing bed times and rules. I can't remember exact details but nothing like what I have read on these boards about how moms bend over backwards for their toddlers (not babies, here). Heck, I myself am pretty loose, but letting a two year old stay up till 11 am, something is just wrong with that, IMHO.

I just don't know, Breathe. Why, why why won't they just GO TO SLEEP??

Jessica


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## jlspalding (May 4, 2004)

I just have to add that I was telling my dd tonight that it was near bedtime, and she said "no, it's not bedtime".

Then she disappeared and came back in the kitchen and said, "good morning Mama!"

I said, "oh, if it's morning already we don't have to sleep, eh?"

"YES".


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Jessica, My hat's off to you for even TRYING to AP your dd to sleep on your own. I honestly have NO idea how any single parent survives the early childhood years. You sound so tired -- I wish I had one iota of advice, but as you can see, I am at a loss for solutions, as well. We have worked so hard on this one issue, and if you did a search for my posts you'd see I've been begging for advice on this for YEARS, and yet it haunts me that we just cannot overcome the sleep difficulties. Wanna hear about TRUE irony? My new baby is the answer to my sleep-deprived prayers . . . he goes down ~ 9 PM, nurses without waking around 3 am, and then wakes around 7. THANK YOU SLEEP GODDESS!!!! However, and this is a big HOWEVER, my 3yo still tantrums to sleep and then wakes (sometimes to tantrum some more!) several times each night. WE CAN'T BUY A BREAK!

All I know is that I want to STRANGLE anyone (ahem, can say GRANDPARENTS?!?!) who implies that babies and children just fall asleep when they're tired!!!!!!







:


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlspalding*
OK, after two years, I am officially giving up. The AP thing, that is. I have a child, now 27 months, who I have never been able to put down to sleep since I brought her home from the hospitol. NEVER. I mean it. I wore her in a sling for 10 months, and then she napped ON ME, always. I read NCSS, I took advice, I combed these boards. I have tried everything. Even as a newborn, she would only sleep about 35 minutes at a time. I tried sneaking away so many times to get a break, I just gave up every time. So after napping ON me or in the car, then she gave up naps completely at 19 months. Oh, she still needs them, it just means that either she will drop asleep at 5pm and then stay up till 11 or so. OR, she won't nap and be absolutely tantrummy and miserable to deal with for half the day, especially around dinnertime.

But then my husband wanted to separate in June, and I have been on my own for four months, and I have to do everything by myself. And her sleep habits, or lack of, just did me in. So, I am letting her CIO. I discovered that she can put herself to sleep, she just won't. And then I discovered that she would NOT sleep if I got into bed with her. Not for naps first, then for bedtime. She would play and play, then she started getting out of bed. I had times when the only way I could get her to nap was to hold her while she screamed and cried. And that could take 40 minutes.

I haven't had a sliver of the breaks that most Moms have had. I haven't seen a movie in over 2 years. I haven't done a single thing for myself, and if this doesn't change, the anger, fury and resentment is going to kill me. I used to breastfeed DD for 3 or 4 hours to get her to go to sleep. I have been pretty irritated at AP, because for me while it hasn't hurt my daughter, it HAS hurt me. By the way, if you read Dr. Sears book on discipline, he talks about leaving children to sleep, and establishing bed times and rules. I can't remember exact details but nothing like what I have read on these boards about how moms bend over backwards for their toddlers (not babies, here). Heck, I myself am pretty loose, but letting a two year old stay up till 11 am, something is just wrong with that, IMHO.

I just don't know, Breathe. Why, why why won't they just GO TO SLEEP??

Jessica

My daughter went through a phase where she preferred letting off steam by fussing and crying a bit before falling asleep. I don't consider that I was using the CIO method though. I would stay right there with her and lay her in our bed and pat her back. Pat it vigorously, I might add, while she fussed. She would fall asleep in less than 5 minutes that way.
She's always been a tricky one. There was a period where I had to hold her in a sitting position in my hands and swing/bounce her to get her to sleep. It was quite a silly dance. And then there was the period where I propped her up in the boppy with her pacifier and put on Baby Einstein so that she thought she dind't have to go to sleep. That one worked like magic. Haha. I felt like I had really tricked her then.
Now she's 2 1/2 and could use a daily nap but if she gets one, she, too, stays up too late. So I try to entertain her and keep her awake without a nap. That means no driving anywhere after 4 pm because she'll sleep in the car. Sometimes I'll just get in bed with her and lay there and she'll climb out of bed and cry and then I'll help her back in bed and she'll toss and turn and then climb back out and then I'll help her back and then she'll toss and turn...rinse and repeat. But there are also those magic times when I ask her to close her eyes and go to sleep because it's night time and she does it!!! There are also the times where I have to lay her down, tuck her in with a kiss and leave the room. It's like if I ignore her, she falls asleep. She likes to have a lot of space when she sleeps too.
I really don't worry about what time they go to bed though. I just try to keep it mellow and happy. I don't think my kids have any concept that there are 24 hours in a day. Last night they were asleep by 9 and then woke up at 1:30 am!! I was NOT happy. It took me 3 hours of reading to them and cuddling with them on the couch and watching Harold and the Purple Crayon and getting annoyed that they were fighting over who was going to lay on my right side and who was going to be the last to say goodnight to the baby in my belly. And UGH!! Sleep issues are so frustrating.
If you're feeling overwhelmed, it's OK to take a break. But I really don't see how CIO as a regular tool benefits anyone. To me, CIO means to completely disregard your child's needs. And AP parenting means to respond to your child's needs. If your child needs to vent before bed, that's fine. If your child doesn't want to be held 24/7, that's fine too. AP isn't a laundry list of things you do to your kids. AP is responding to the needs of your child in a respectful, sensitive and empathetic way. When either of my children get upset that it's bedtime I tell them I understand that they worry they'll miss something fun. I tell them I understand they don't want to go to sleep. But I also tell them that if they relax and stay calm, they'll realize sleep is really nice too. And we talk about fun things they can dream about or the wonderful things they'll get to do AFTER they sleep.


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## jlspalding (May 4, 2004)

I am with you on that on, Breathe, yeah, babies fall asleep when they're tired!! HAA HAAA HAAA! Mine will distract herself and talk to what's on her T-shirt to keep from sleeping.

Yes, I remember the post. I followed it all the way to the end. I think I titled a post "only respond if you really know what sleep problems are" because I was so tired of the two responses "get the NO cry sleep solution" or "maybe she's not really tired".

What concerns me about this in the AP world is that all the no CIO stuff is for infants. So what do you do with toddlers and 3 year olds, and six year olds? Where is that piece of advice. I think that some kids just won't go to sleep unless you take every iota of distraction and attention away. For mine, I just figured that is what it will take. I do allow her to turn the light on, sleep with the light on, and to read books by herself. Because I have seen her fall asleep with books all over her in bed.

I guess to be specific, what my problem is isn't the getting to sleep, it's the staying asleep. That has always been the problem, even since infantdom. She just simply won't sleep unless I am right there the whole time.

Jessica


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlspalding*
I am with you on that on, Breathe, yeah, babies fall asleep when they're tired!! HAA HAAA HAAA! Mine will distract herself and talk to what's on her T-shirt to keep from sleeping.

Yes, I remember the post. I followed it all the way to the end. I think I titled a post "only respond if you really know what sleep problems are" because I was so tired of the two responses "get the NO cry sleep solution" or "maybe she's not really tired".

What concerns me about this in the AP world is that all the no CIO stuff is for infants. So what do you do with toddlers and 3 year olds, and six year olds? Where is that piece of advice. I think that some kids just won't go to sleep unless you take every iota of distraction and attention away. For mine, I just figured that is what it will take. I do allow her to turn the light on, sleep with the light on, and to read books by herself. Because I have seen her fall asleep with books all over her in bed.

I guess to be specific, what my problem is isn't the getting to sleep, it's the staying asleep. That has always been the problem, even since infantdom. She just simply won't sleep unless I am right there the whole time.

Jessica

One thing that helped us a little was giving a magnesium supplement before bed. I use one called Natural CALM. I add hot water so it dissolves and then add a little Recharge or juice since my kids don't like herbal tea and it doesn't taste good by itself. http://www.yearstoyourhealth.com/nat...magnesium.html This isn't an official site or anything, it's just the first one I pulled up that looked interesting.


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## sleepless-in-texas (Dec 1, 2004)

I am afraid I am headed down the same path with my 1 year old. I don't agree with CIO, but I am concerned that she is unable to stay asleep. (and I am so tired). I work at home and my income is half what it was.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleepless-in-texas*
I am afraid I am headed down the same path with my 1 year old. I don't agree with CIO, but I am concerned that she is unable to stay asleep. (and I am so tired). I work at home and my income is half what it was.

How often does she wake up? Does she nurse when she does? I started limiting my son's nursing to however long it took me to count to 100 (4 mins or so). I would tell him goodnight and roll over and so would he. He also stopped waking up as much when the nursing was brief. Another thing I did was keep a sippy cup with water by the bed and offer it to him. Sometimes he just needed a few sips of water to fall back to sleep and didn't really want to nurse or anything like that. She could be teething though. Have you tried homeopathic chamomilla?


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## TwinMom (Dec 27, 2001)

OMG, I could have written all of these posts! It started with my twins--one was an okay sleeper but the other NEVER slept. She still rarely sleeps, but now that they're 11 I don't have to deal with it. She's up until 3 or 4 a.m. every night. Alec is 3 and has the same problems. He rarely goes to sleep before midnight. None of my kids has napped past 16 months; they are just gogogogo ALL the time! I didn't cosleep with the twins but do cosleep with Alec, so I don't think that's the problem. At least with the girls I was able to put them in their cribs and close the door; since Alec sleeps with us that's not really an option. How do you keep a 3-year old in a bed without using brute force? I'm so freaking tired and when I think that in another month or so there will be yet another baby who won't sleep (judging by uterine activity)...well, I just want to cry.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

My dd, also 3yo, has recently been...different about sleep. I don't know if this is at all similar to what you're experiencing, but I'll throw it out.

She is just now exploring the exciting world of making conscious choices about sleep. Until age 3, she either nursed to sleep, sought us out in some other way when she felt tired (e.g. sitting in my lap while I typed, or getting on dh's shoulders while we were out walking), or just drifted off in place. If she was still awake when dh and I went to bed, she generally came to bed and fell asleep pretty easily (usually nursing). But she wasn't really aware sleep was going to happen, most of the time. Now that she's 3, she is developing that awareness. She tells me that she can't go to sleep because "her eyes aren't big enough" -- by which she means that she can't understand our adult suggestion to just close her eyes and try to fall asleep. (She will lie there and try to get tired, but that's a little different.)

Further extending this concept of sleep that is somewhat independent of her parents, she has been experimenting with staying up after we go to bed. About 2 or 3 times recently, she's told us she wants to stay up all night (an idea she got from dh saying he was going to stay up all night to do work). She plays quietly in the living room, adjacent to our bedroom. (This is IMHO safe for dd -- I add this in the wake of a discussion with my mother -- because I know her well, and cannot imagine her doing anything potentially dangerous without notifying us first. The main danger is that she will drive us crazy by waking us up 500 times for every little thing. :-D) Then at some point she wakes me up and announces that she is coming to bed with us. She lies down, and goes to sleep.

There are so many developmental things going on here. She is more aware about sleep in general, what dreams are, what hours it occupies. She is interested in our feelings and beliefs about it (and what will we do if...). Her way of going to sleep is changing and maturing, and some irregularities come in the process of that happening. She is asserting her independence and wanting to use language to control things (like sleep). At the same time, she sometimes wants lots of reassuring babying (I'm sure that would be even more true if we had a new baby around -- we'll see soon!). I see so many parallels between her 3yo self and her 1yo self, and feel similar frustrations. The association between bedtime and reading books also tends to drag out the process of falling asleep, since at 3yo she is extremely sensitive to narrative, memorizing stories and poems, wanting to hear stories in different forms and add things on, etc.

Especially if she takes a nap, or sleeps late in the morning, sometimes she honestly isn't tired when we are, or when we expect her to be. I see her: she isn't wired, she's been lying in bed next to me listening to books without a single yawn or eye rub. (And then I cry. :LOL) Whenever I make sleep an issue -- this would include bedtime, if we had one -- it backfires and everything gets REALLY ugly.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TwinMom*
OMG, I could have written all of these posts! It started with my twins--one was an okay sleeper but the other NEVER slept. She still rarely sleeps, but now that they're 11 I don't have to deal with it. She's up until 3 or 4 a.m. every night. Alec is 3 and has the same problems. He rarely goes to sleep before midnight. None of my kids has napped past 16 months; they are just gogogogo ALL the time! I didn't cosleep with the twins but do cosleep with Alec, so I don't think that's the problem. At least with the girls I was able to put them in their cribs and close the door; since Alec sleeps with us that's not really an option. How do you keep a 3-year old in a bed without using brute force? I'm so freaking tired and when I think that in another month or so there will be yet another baby who won't sleep (judging by uterine activity)...well, I just want to cry.

I just spent the last 20 mins holding my son in a hug in his bed while I sang to him. He didn't want to be held but he was soooo tired and it was after MIDNIGHT! But he also fusses when we drive him in the car and he is restrained in the car seat. It's like his last hurrah before he just can't stay awake anymore. I don't hold him in a death grip or anything, but I keep a firm hold. If he were to fight me off, I would let go. But we negotiate. If he doesn't want his arms crossed, I let him have his hands free. If he tries sticking his fingers up my nose, I let him know that I'm going to hold his hands. His dad went and warmed the car up thinking we were going to have to drive him because he thought he was being so wild and would never go to sleep. By the time he walked back in from the garage, he was surprised to see that Skanda was asleep.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Erin, my younger sister used to stay up til the wee hours of the morning. My mom didn't care as long as she wasn't getting into trouble. She would draw or play with clay or read or something - even when she was 5/6 years old. I never understood how she could stay up like that. I've always been such an easy sleeper and I think I must have been in jr. high before I ever stayed up past midnight.


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## Marianna (Dec 6, 2004)

: Just subscribing to this thread... DD is 2.5 years and we are just getting very tired of the lack of sleep routine. Over the last 6 months she has drastically improved with not waking during the night, but like many of you we have always tried to follow her lead and have a gentle sleep routine and to no avail... she will be hideous and cranky and still be running around the house avoiding bed. So now it is dinner, bath, play, 2 books in bed and then sleep at about 9pm... we have resorted to letting her cry..not alone, but we have no other ideas. We have tried a few nighttime routines but she has not improved... so will stay tuned for some ideas.


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## sleepless-in-texas (Dec 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
How often does she wake up? Does she nurse when she does? I started limiting my son's nursing to however long it took me to count to 100 (4 mins or so). I would tell him goodnight and roll over and so would he. He also stopped waking up as much when the nursing was brief. Another thing I did was keep a sippy cup with water by the bed and offer it to him. Sometimes he just needed a few sips of water to fall back to sleep and didn't really want to nurse or anything like that. She could be teething though. Have you tried homeopathic chamomilla?

Hi Kavamamakava
Thanks for the tips. Should I get the liquid chamomilla Whole Foods Market sells? For several weeks she woke up every hour (I kept a diary). 3 ear infections (or maybe one neverending ear infection that 4 different antiotics couldn't heal) plus first 2 teeth erupted last week. She will rarely go back to sleep without a nipple in her mouth even though she only nurses some of the time. It's definitely comfort nursing. What do you think about the magnesium defficiency theory?
thanks again
Pam (nak)


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleepless-in-texas*
Hi Kavamamakava
Thanks for the tips. Should I get the liquid chamomilla Whole Foods Market sells? For several weeks she woke up every hour (I kept a diary). 3 ear infections (or maybe one neverending ear infection that 4 different antiotics couldn't heal) plus first 2 teeth erupted last week. She will rarely go back to sleep without a nipple in her mouth even though she only nurses some of the time. It's definitely comfort nursing. What do you think about the magnesium defficiency theory?
thanks again
Pam (nak)

I didn't know there WAS a liquid chamomilla. I bet that would help soothe her if she's waking from pain. Have you given her some probiotics to help counter the antibiotics on her system? Jarro makes one called Baby Dophilus that they sell at Whole Foods (it's refrigerated).
I don't think a 1 year old is magnesium deficient, but I do give it to my children on an almost daily basis, especially when they start asking to drink a lot of milk. They go through milk phases and the amount of calcium a body absorbs is directly related to the amount of magneisum. So they may not be deficient, but they may have too much calcium and needs some more magnesium to help assimilate it.
I hope she settles down soon.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

kavamamakava, What does mag have do to with sleeping? I ask bc my ds(3) is chronically constipated (even tho we eat NO dairy) and I've often wondered if he has a mag deficiency. That might be an avenue for us to explore . . .


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Adding Breathe to the short list of mamas I compeltely identify with here at MDC...

Anyhow, is your ds still teething, by any chance, Breathe?

Crap, ds2 is awake for the second time since bedtime...gotta go.


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## justmama (Dec 24, 2002)

I could have written the original post. I was a single mama until about 5 months ago and co-slept and AP'ed my daughter to sleep. Never made sleep an issue. Read all of Dr. Sears' books, etc. I too feel like he owes me an explanation. My 4 1/2 year old is on the go all day long. She rests for an hour in the middle of the day reading books and listening to stories on tape. She NEVER sleeps. At 8pm I want her in bed. I want time with my hubby before we go to bed without a child around. I figure we deserve that. I can't push her bedtime back any latr because she gets more and more overtired and frankly, dh gets up for work at 4:30am. We are in bed by 9 or 9:30 every night. But dd fusses and screams and cries and tells me she's NOT going to bed. She's very serious. She is NOT going to bed. I've tried the routine, tweaking the routine, warm milk, protein snack, NCSS, snuggling, watching a movie to unwind, rocking in the chair, etc. EVERYTHING! But she simply will NOT go to sleep without a hassle. I've even tried timers and 10,5,2, and 1 minute warnings about bedtime approaching. Doesn't work. I'm at my wit's end here. Even when we finally get her into bed, she plays with and talks to her fingers for 2 hours. She's up later than us usually! I dont' know what to do.
Meg


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Man, we need some help, don't we?!? I sincerely wish we oculd get Dr. Sears in a room (haha, that sounds more menacing than I mean it to sound!) to see what he would suggest for all of us . . . it scares me to think that we could make the same mistakes (if we've even made any?) with ds2.

Lucky One, You and I have always had things in common . . . makes sense that we always will, given our kiddos!







And I suppose ds1 could be working on 3-yr molars? Are those even supposed to be painful? Yeesh. Just as soon as he gets all his teeth, they'll start falling out, and I'm sure THAT will disrupt sleeep too!

Faerybugmady, HUGS to you! I have no advice, but at least your dd can be left in her room awake -- take some small solace in that -- my ds can't be left alone for 1 minute, so someone has to lie there with him while he talks and plays and talks and wiggles and TALKS AND TALKS AND TALKS! And yes, ITA that dh and I MUST have time together at the end of the day -- non-negotiable for the health of our marriage!


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## sleepless-in-texas (Dec 1, 2004)

Hmm..
Dr Sears alone in a room. Sounds good. Count me in. I've done everything "right" too and I'm scared.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faerybugmady*
I could have written the original post. I was a single mama until about 5 months ago and co-slept and AP'ed my daughter to sleep. Never made sleep an issue. Read all of Dr. Sears' books, etc. I too feel like he owes me an explanation. My 4 1/2 year old is on the go all day long. She rests for an hour in the middle of the day reading books and listening to stories on tape. She NEVER sleeps. At 8pm I want her in bed. I want time with my hubby before we go to bed without a child around. I figure we deserve that. I can't push her bedtime back any latr because she gets more and more overtired and frankly, dh gets up for work at 4:30am. We are in bed by 9 or 9:30 every night. But dd fusses and screams and cries and tells me she's NOT going to bed. She's very serious. She is NOT going to bed. I've tried the routine, tweaking the routine, warm milk, protein snack, NCSS, snuggling, watching a movie to unwind, rocking in the chair, etc. EVERYTHING! But she simply will NOT go to sleep without a hassle. I've even tried timers and 10,5,2, and 1 minute warnings about bedtime approaching. Doesn't work. I'm at my wit's end here. Even when we finally get her into bed, she plays with and talks to her fingers for 2 hours. She's up later than us usually! I dont' know what to do.
Meg

What time does she wake up in the morning? I've been tweaking my kids' bedtime by waking them up half hour before I expect they would have woken up on their own. This makes them more likely to go to sleep at an earlier time at night.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Add my dd to the list!!!
Sleep has been a difficult issue since birth. Less than two months old, she would go hours upon hours (most of the day) without napping. She gave up naps entirely at 20 mo. We've been trying to coax 10 hours of sleep from her daily since then









Bedtime can easily take hours around here. She just has such a difficult time settling down. It honestly is so difficult for her! Her mind simply won't stop, kwim?

I am not sure if this is a seperate or related issue, but she was also diagnosed with SID this year. Some of the therapies seem to have made a difference, and during some stages of therapy we have seen easier bedtimes. One thing that was recommended to me by another mama when dd was 2 (based on my description of her sleep issues) is a weighted blanket. This is an SID therapy tool, sort of a quilt weighted in areas with aquarium rocks. There are directions online to make one. For many children, they provide deep pressure that calms and helps them settle down in bed. I have yet to make one for dd, but plan to as soon as I fix my sewing machine. Maybe this would be helpful for some of the older kiddos mentioned here?








s mamas---It can be SO difficult to find the patience when we are so tired!


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

I've been reading, listening, and thinking about this sleep stuff for 2 years myself. What I have come to learn is this: there is no one size fits all approach to sleep for babies/kids/adults. Everyone has different sleep patterns/rhythms and this is the most difficult thing in the world to cope with as a parent...particularly when our children don't fall asleep on their own and need help settling down constantly. My ds is 2 and he has not gone to sleep at night but maybe 2 times in his life without ME either nursing or bouncing him to sleep. He still takes a nap once a day, but again, either nursing or bouncing gets him to sleep. He still wakes a couple times a night (some nights more than others), but is now sleeping for 2-3 hours during the day and this does impact the time he tends to go to sleep at night. I could go on and on about how his sleep times have changed, but I think you've all heard the same story as mine.

My hugs to each of you who are working through this difficult time. The way our children sleep, or don't, is not about how we have treated them, but about who they are as little people. I hope this makes things more bearable. My husband does not sleep "well" and never has. He always stays up late and his mom said he slept very little as a kid. (my dh's mom used CIO--a modified version, but CIO nonetheless from what she's told me). I think some are just wired this way and sounds like we all are parents of these differently wired sleepers.

Also, just a side note. I don't think of how I treat my son as AP or not AP. I work hard to respect his cycles, recognize his signals, and respond to him according to what I have read as proven through research, which is that allowing babies to cry without being attended to for whatever reason is not a good choice. Here are some points from a research article I ran across---actually, I think I got it from another thread here. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

*early stress resulting from separation causes changes in infants brains that makes them more susceptible to stress in their lives

*nervous systems change when stressed

*our society stresses independence so much that it's having some very negative side effects

Ok, one more thing, then I'll shut up







. The overwhelming feeling I get from reading all the posts is that you moms are beating yourselves up for responding to your children in ways that you feel was/is the right thing to do. I've been right there with each of you and it's not a fun place to be. If this helps at all, research is proving daily that being attentive to our children in the way that you all have described is best for our kids although it is time consuming and hard on lots of us.

I think this often and have even considered starting a post about it: I wonder if our population would be much smaller if more people parented the way we do--listening to the needs of our kids, being gentle and sensitive, etc. It makes me wonder because this is definitely harder to do in comparison to the mainstream world. I have only one child and may be done, but ya just never know!


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I'm on the "other" side of this. Let's just say my own mom, if she were still with us, could have written "We've done everything "right", so how come 3*5* yo still fights sleep?!? "










For all those who worry about their kids crying in arms...don't worry so much! I actually remember being SO tired I couldn't see straight, being so tired I would run in circles, being so tired the ONLY thing that would get me to go to sleep would be to hurt myself in some way (easy if you can't see straight and you're running in circles!).

I was a family "joke" (that sounds bad, it wasn't bad) because I wouldn't go to sleep. I was watching SNL from its first season, and that's when I was FIVE.

I also hear I never napped. I mean, never. My mom didn't say "never after you were 1", she said "never".

Poor mom.

And I'm still a night owl. My husband will attest to the fact that I still "talk myself to sleep". Well, that is until we had our own little guy and I'm exhausted and fall asleep by the time I get to bed most nights. I'm so tired because I still can't nap unless sick or absolutely ridiculously tired or on medication.

It's just who I am. And I know from childhood up to today, if I'm sleepy but fighting it, having someone who loves me nearby, holding me, even if I'm crying...or willing to pick me up when I finally fall over...that's the nicest thing to feel.

So don't worry too much about the baby/toddler crying in your arms as you put them to bed.

Also, I surely do remember feeling that I was missing out on things, and so I would stay awake until the very last person had gone to sleep. I didn't want to miss one single thing, and I was a bit paranoid that parties were happening after I was put to bed.









So that's another thing to feel better about. Your kids just don't want to miss out on YOU!

Hugs to all of you going through what my mom went through, though....


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollyeilis*
I'm on the "other" side of this. Let's just say my own mom, if she were still with us, could have written "We've done everything "right", so how come 3*5* yo still fights sleep?!? "










For all those who worry about their kids crying in arms...don't worry so much! I actually remember being SO tired I couldn't see straight, being so tired I would run in circles, being so tired the ONLY thing that would get me to go to sleep would be to hurt myself in some way (easy if you can't see straight and you're running in circles!).

I was a family "joke" (that sounds bad, it wasn't bad) because I wouldn't go to sleep. I was watching SNL from its first season, and that's when I was FIVE.

I also hear I never napped. I mean, never. My mom didn't say "never after you were 1", she said "never".

Poor mom.

And I'm still a night owl. My husband will attest to the fact that I still "talk myself to sleep". Well, that is until we had our own little guy and I'm exhausted and fall asleep by the time I get to bed most nights. I'm so tired because I still can't nap unless sick or absolutely ridiculously tired or on medication.

It's just who I am. And I know from childhood up to today, if I'm sleepy but fighting it, having someone who loves me nearby, holding me, even if I'm crying...or willing to pick me up when I finally fall over...that's the nicest thing to feel.

So don't worry too much about the baby/toddler crying in your arms as you put them to bed.

Also, I surely do remember feeling that I was missing out on things, and so I would stay awake until the very last person had gone to sleep. I didn't want to miss one single thing, and I was a bit paranoid that parties were happening after I was put to bed.









So that's another thing to feel better about. Your kids just don't want to miss out on YOU!

Hugs to all of you going through what my mom went through, though....









Are any of your kids like you? I think my kids get it from their dad. His mom says that she used to give him benadryl every night to get him to go to sleep. she was a single mom with a full time job. I guess she just did what she needed to do. She was far from an AP parent though. He still takes unisom to go to sleep every night. I really don't want this for my children and would like to teach them how to fall asleep on their own. But maybe it's not possible? One good thing is that my daughter goes nuts if you give her benadryl. So HAHAHA he can't give her any to make her sleep


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I'm not really sure yet, my one baby is only 7 months old.







But he does like to be around people a whole lot. And he's a night owl, but then both DH and I are, to the detriment to DH's job schedule!

My mom liked going to sleep early and waking up early, I hated both of those things. And yeah, hmm, my dad can easily stay up late, in fact for the last 10 years he's worked the overnight shift at his job. Hmm....


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Just thought I'd offer this article from 1999 in Mothering. It may not have solutions for all the problems mentioned here but some might find helpful information or direction.

Pillow Talk: Helping your Child Get a Good Night's Sleep
By Paul M. Fleiss
Issue 96, September/October 1999

Also these might help:

"Sleep with Me", no. 91;
" The Truth About Nightwaking", no. 76
" Tossing and Turning over 'Crying It Out'", no. 74
" That Family Bed...Shhh!" no. 53


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

OMG! I just found this thread. My dd is also a sleep-fighter. With her, it started at 6 months. She had always nursed throughout the night, but at 6 months she started staying up late. We thought it was just a phase, but at almost 3 years we still have trouble getting her to sleep at night. She gets so tired and then just goes nuts. Runs around yelling and getting out toys and just being nuts. We have tried everything. Rituals, routines, etc. Nothing has worked. For the last few nights, dh has taken her out for a drive at about 8:45 and so far, she's fallen asleep in the car every time. I've also been making sure she's awake at 8 am. She hasn't napped since she self-weaned at 2 years.

Ds is 6 1/2 months and he has always slept like a champ. He has never really nursed much during the night. I breathed a sigh of relief when 6 months came and went and he was still going to sleep by 9 every night!

Anyway, no real advice. Just wanted to sympathize.

Oh, and Breathe, that's interesting about the constipation thing. Dd has chronic constipation too. I've never heard about the magnesium deficiancy thing.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

constipation can also be a sign of food allergies! AND, sometimes the *only* sign of an allergy is problems going to sleep and/or staying asleep. Go check out Dr. Sears' website, I know I read about sleep problems and their association with allergies there. Ack! His website isn't working right now, I'll find the specific link later on. www.askdrsears.com

And, on the same topic, I have very very extremely sensitive skin, and if there's any bit of fabric softener on my clothes, sheets, or blankets, I itch all over and can't sleep. Sometimes there's not even a sign of redness or irritation, just an itchy crawly feeling all over that keeps me awake. I get the same way (except worse, red itchy bumps and sometimes even hives) when I use any sort of soap, lotion, shampoo, or other body product that contains fragrance, and even react to some that say on the label, "unscented and hypoallergenic"


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## Marianna (Dec 6, 2004)

I have realised that my anguish over my daughter's sleeping is pretty much drawn from having unrealistic expectations of her sleep patterns. I am a terrible sleeper and have a shocking time of it getting to sleep. I usually take a magnesium supplement but haven't for ages... I can take hours to drop off. She is the same... hardly surprising is it?

I also realise that I have been appropaching her bedtime every night with a sense of dread, which I am sure that she picks up on..which of course wouldn't be helping the problem... So I have bookmarked the mothering article and will start afresh with the night sleep routine and see what happens.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

stafl, Funny that you mention allergies . . . my ds is allergic to wheat, corn , dairy, nuts, and bananas! For the first year of his life, I *do* believe those things in my milk made it very difficult for him to sleep peacefully. I have made myself INSANE trying to determine if there are other allergens bothering him over the years, but for now, he has none of the other signs that tell us he's reacting to something (not even the subtle ones). I will admit (some of you may want to kill me now) that if he doesn't nap, and we don't let him stay up too late (i.e. in the bath at 7 PM), then he *usually* goes along with the routine easily, nurses, and then falls asleep before I can finish singing two songs.

SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE *EVER* LET HIM NAP?!?!?!

1) bc he seems so chronically sleep-deprived (from nite-waking) that he is a BEAR by 3:00 unless we are very, very busy

and

2) I'm home all day with him and a new baby, so I just can't keep him all that busy . . . not to mention that I can't handle his bear-ness very well

and did I mention that I need the break?!?!

We are definitely caught in a difficult transition, where skipping the nap makes for an AWFUL day followed by an easy night, and having a nap makes for a better day followed by an AWFUL night. Dh and I go round and round about what's best, and we usu end up doing both in a given week. NOT good for establishing a routine I know, but I guess with ds2 here now we just have to SURVIVE.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
kavamamakava, What does mag have do to with sleeping? I ask bc my ds(3) is chronically constipated (even tho we eat NO dairy) and I've often wondered if he has a mag deficiency. That might be an avenue for us to explore . . .

Sorry. I don't think I saw this the other day. All I know is that giving them some magnesium before bed helps calm them (even when it's given with watered down juice) and also it helps my daughter's constipation issues.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
stafl, Funny that you mention allergies . . . my ds is allergic to wheat, corn , dairy, nuts, and bananas! For the first year of his life, I *do* believe those things in my milk made it very difficult for him to sleep peacefully. I have made myself INSANE trying to determine if there are other allergens bothering him over the years, but for now, he has none of the other signs that tell us he's reacting to something (not even the subtle ones). I will admit (some of you may want to kill me now) that if he doesn't nap, and we don't let him stay up too late (i.e. in the bath at 7 PM), then he *usually* goes along with the routine easily, nurses, and then falls asleep before I can finish singing two songs.

SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE *EVER* LET HIM NAP?!?!?!

1) bc he seems so chronically sleep-deprived (from nite-waking) that he is a BEAR by 3:00 unless we are very, very busy

and

2) I'm home all day with him and a new baby, so I just can't keep him all that busy . . . not to mention that I can't handle his bear-ness very well

and did I mention that I need the break?!?!

We are definitely caught in a difficult transition, where skipping the nap makes for an AWFUL day followed by an easy night, and having a nap makes for a better day followed by an AWFUL night. Dh and I go round and round about what's best, and we usu end up doing both in a given week. NOT good for establishing a routine I know, but I guess with ds2 here now we just have to SURVIVE.

I've got that same nap issue with my youngest. If she naps, she stays up too late. If she doesn't nap, she's a pill to be around on days when she wants one. So I just have a no napping after 3 pm rule. If she's napping, I wake her up by 3. That tends to help. We also do NOT drive anywhere in the car after 3 pm unless it's a really short distance. Otherwise, she naps. And a 10 minute nap might as well be a 3 hour nap because she doesn't go to bed til midnight after a late afternoon/early evening nap.

I've read things about how it's healthier to get kids to bed by 7/7:30 because of the sun and liver and digestion, etc. But I refuse to do that as everytime I've tried to implement that, they think it's a nap and wake up at midnight ready to go. I've tried to be sensitive to their own internal clocks and it seems to me, they do best if they are asleep by 9:30 and then up by 8:30/9. That gets them through the day without melt downs or nap longings.


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## jlspalding (May 4, 2004)

Just wondering here, why are these very diverse and strange sleep stories virtually unheard of in all the books. Just aside from AP, or not, what the heck? If these are real life experiences, why don't we ever hear about them?

Like even the No Cry Sleep book, it makes you feel like a freak! Why does my child stay up till 11pm? Why do they nap and then wake up a midnight if you get them to sleep at 7pm?

If the human sleep experience is so varied, from infants to adults, why is it such a secret? (not intentionally, I know)

Just wondering here.

Jessica


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlspalding*
Just wondering here, why are these very diverse and strange sleep stories virtually unheard of in all the books. Just aside from AP, or not, what the heck? If these are real life experiences, why don't we ever hear about them?

Like even the No Cry Sleep book, it makes you feel like a freak! Why does my child stay up till 11pm? Why do they nap and then wake up a midnight if you get them to sleep at 7pm?

If the human sleep experience is so varied, from infants to adults, why is it such a secret? (not intentionally, I know)

Just wondering here.

Jessica

perhaps you need to do some soul-searching. Why does it make you feel like a freak? Why is it such a big issue to you? maybe you don't hear much about it because most of us aren't overly concerned with it. Or maybe it's because society makes parents feel somehow inadequate if they admit their children aren't doing everything the experts say they should. Or maybe it's just because the parents who let their babies cry it out aren't in tune with what their children need, and obedience train their kids like they are dogs to not cry because nobody cares and nobody will respond.









Here's a good example: So my sister says her baby is in bed from 6pm to 6am, just like those books and her pediatrician say she should be, but I know for a fact from when they visited us that the poor little girl cried her heart out for at least two hours before falling asleep, and woke up around midnight and had to cry for another hour or so before going back to sleep. If she woke up early, she had to sit there and cry until it was "time" to get up. Sis never even flinched, and didn't ever once go check on her crying baby. It was so bad, I went in there and talked to the baby and rubbed her back, and my sister yelled at me for doing that! So yeah, her baby is in bed for 12 hours every night, but she's certainly not asleep that whole time. Don't even get me started on the enforced nap time. Anyway, my point is that just because someone says such and such, doesn't mean that's how you would perceive it to really be if you saw it for yourself.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

ITA that waht people report their babies are doing may be VERY different from what *we* (with our AP glasses on) might see . . . I've seen with my militaristic SIL who insists that her babies "just put themselves to sleep," when in fact they are CIO and she says she can't turn her monitor down low enough in order to not hear them!

I have wondered recently, though, if other cultures have these kinds of sleep issues/problems . . . I've read Meredith Small and I know she would insist they don't, but she says they don't BECAUSE they co-sleep. So where'e the disconnect there?


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
...the poor little girl cried her heart out for at least two hours before falling asleep, and woke up around midnight and had to cry for another hour or so before going back to sleep. If she woke up early, she had to sit there and cry until it was "time" to get up.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathe*
I've seen with my militaristic SIL who insists that her babies "just put themselves to sleep," when in fact they are CIO and she says she can't turn her monitor down low enough in order to not hear them!









Wow. This is not an explanation that had ever occurred to me.

Quote:

I have wondered recently, though, if other cultures have these kinds of sleep issues/problems . . . I've read Meredith Small and I know she would insist they don't, but she says they don't BECAUSE they co-sleep. So where'e the disconnect there?
A lot of specific circumstances go into making a situation a problem. For example, many people have said they wouldn't trust their children up alone in their houses. In some other cultures, people don't keep a lot that's dangerous inside the house, and in any case don't closely supervise small children during the day -- they are expected to be able to look out for themselves. We are relatively likely to have restrictive work/school schedules, spend less time as a group in "sleep mode," and live in isolated nuclear families, among whom there is less likely to be someone who happens to be awake to be available for an awake small child. In many other cultures, people do not try to put kids to bed separately and deliberately so that they can have "adult time" at night. Because of the experiences most of us had as children (see the appalling stories above!), we have a terrificly high rate of sleep problems as adults, some of which we don't even appreciate as problems. For example, a lot of us have trouble sleeping close to a little body, trouble falling back to sleep quickly after waking to nurse or potty, etc. Many adults stay up hours and hours later than the natural end of the day, sometimes trying to cram in work, and habitually get too little sleep. Our bad sleep habits affect our kids, even when we try to avoid it.


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

That's a great explanation, Erin -- maybe YOU should write the sleep book we all seem to need! It's so true, I *desperately* need my adult time at nite, and I feel certain that if I had more support and networking during the day, I wouldn't need that so much. And it's clear to me both my babies would prefer that we just go to bed when they do!


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## Indigomama (Dec 26, 2001)

Stafl - do we have the same sil?????

I KNOW that all my friends with children ~ 3 -4 are facing some of the same issues with going to bed and non of them cosleep.

Like tonight... mom.. i want to go to bed... no i don't want to go to bed.. no i don't want bubble water.. yes i do want you to read books.. hold on i have to go poop... i changed my mind.. can u read books mama...can you start that book over mom i wasn't listening.. oh i do need bubble water... can you read the grinch book again? ... my tummy hurts.. i need crackers silly mama... more bubble water... hey there's a monster in the bathroom can you shut the door...and on and on and on...

i breathe in and out and in and out.. and try not to start screaming. I do know that for me - getting flustered or impatient with ds ( a challenge not to) just seems to feed the delays. It's definitely a control issue with him... he wants to make his own decision to go to bed.

DS still starts screaming/crying for me if he wakes up and i'm not next to him... frustrating.. but i'll have to be honest, if i woke up and my dh wasn't in bed.. i'd probably go looking for him too.

Hang in there mamas! And always trust your instinct on how to tackle the issue.


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## mamazig (Nov 14, 2004)

Just had to chime in here! After many many rough nights and awful days of feeling guilty and incompetent, etc. etc., I think I have come to a couple of conclusions. I feel lucky to have a sister who had a daughter 6 months before me and a SIL who had a daughter 5 months after me. My sis co-sleeps and parents much like myself. My SIL uses CIO. . . Guess what, folks. Even though my co-sleeping 15 mo dd will fight sleep till the cows come home, my sis's co-sleeping dd falls asleep at the drop of a hat -- and my CIO niece fights sleep for naps and bedtime still! (poor babe!) I kept asking myself, how comes I'm doing everything "right", I'm doing everything like my sis and still she won't sleep?? It doesn't make sense! Well, here's my conclusion (the same as some PP have come up with) -- sleep must not have too much to do with what WE do (nurture) but must have more to do with who our babes are (nature) -- I think I kept looking to Sears and Gordon and Pantley for solutions to our sleep issues just like my SIL looked to CIO "experts" -- I was searching for some way to "train" my baby to sleep, but I didn't want the CIO training . . . but training nonetheless. . . what I think I've finally realized is that nothing I do in the end will make vast differences for my individual DD -- little things each night might make a difference that night, but generally speaking, my dd will probably always fight sleep, hate sleep, wake up from sleep, you all know what it's like . . . I'm not saying I've given up looking for ways to make our nights easier, but ever since I #1) came to the conclusion that we're a co-sleeping family and that's OK!! (that was a big initial battle for us -- we came to "AP" late . . .) and #2) realized that my babe isn't "wired" to sleep-- I feel much much better. I chose the AP-style of parenting not because I wanted my child to sleep better, but because I believe in staying in tune with and responding to her needs.
I hope I've made some sense in my rambling here . . . it's been a very rough week of even less sleep than usual (second tooth in a week to come in any moment now??!!) I just wanted to express my deepest empathy with you all and share the little conclusions that have made me feel the slightest bit better.







We're thinking about TTC soon and I'm just praying for a babe wired for sleep!








Hugs to all you tired mamas-- I hope you can use some the awesome tips offered from all these patient mamas. As for myself, I'm definitely seeing if mag. is something DD could use . . . it's worth a try








Beth -- workin' mama to Sylvie Isabel 9.21.03 (our little hurricane in the woods)


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## taransmom (Sep 2, 2004)

I need some advice. I have a 6 month old little sweet girl who apparently is a "night feeder" and likes to sleep on mom. I suppose I started the habit w/nursing on the boppy and falling asleep along with baby. Well, I would like her to sleep on the bed now so I can rest between 2 hour feedings or comfort suckings. She will occasionally sleep for 30-60 min on the bed then wakes up crying. It is very rare that she will soothe herself to sleep. So, either I get up and walk her to sleep (doesn't always work) or put her back to the nipple. She doesn't like to be put down to nap either; we usually have to use the swing or the car seat. I work part-time and it is hard to get a routine. She will NOT cry herself to sleep. Any suggestions? Thanksl


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## pjsmom30 (Jul 20, 2004)

I just wanted to pop in here with my experience. My son didn't sleep from about 2 months until 5 months. Up 18 times a night and 15 minute naps during the day. I was a total mess. I was not going to even consider Ferber, but after NCSS didn't work, I was desparate. Sleep deprivation is scary! My pedi said, just READ Ferber. It is very informative. I took it out of the library, and learned so much from the first few chapters! I still wasn't willing to ferberize, but I put my son down to sleep by himself for the first time. We did bottle, prayers, song, and then I put him in his crib and left. Ready for the worst. He put him self to sleep with NO crying!!!!! I was stunned!! Things only got better from there. I slowly weaned him from nighttime nursing, by lessening the length of feedings by one minute per night. It worked like a charm, he NEVER cried himself to sleep, and now he sleeps through the night, every night. He wakes up, but just coos and plays and goes back to sleep. They need to learn to do it on their own! He was never upset by this. Basically I took parts of Ferber that were interesting, but never had to do CIO. Give it a try. I had spent millions of hours rocking and bouncing my son to sleep only to have him wake up when I put him down.

Just wanted to share.

Gina


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## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hmmm, interesting . . . I've never read Ferber but have avoided all sleep "training" like the plague. Have read NCSS and Weissbluth (the Dr. who says you should let them cry until they vomit, if that's what it takes. Yup, and we blame HOLLYWOOD for all the troubled children in our society!). So here I am, the OP for this thread, with a 3-yr old who cannot put himself to sleep -- would you believe that I still BOUNCE HIM on the balance ball every day for a nap, AND I did so every day of my pregnancy?!?! Yes, I was THAT desperate for a break!

Well an interesting thing has happened since I started this thread . . . My 3 mos old has spent the last month screaming his head off -- off and on all day, but especially after 4 PM. He has been an exquisitely lite sleeper (BAD news for a second child!) and a cat-napper since day 1, with VERY little accumulated sleep during the day, but has slept like a DREAM at night (nursing only once or twice). We figured it was a trade-off . . . that he's a nite sleeper, while my 3 yr old must be a day sleeper (prefers 3 hr naps but wakes at nite!).

But while dh was home for the week between Xmas and New Year's, he started putting ds2 to sleep (bouncing in a dark room to music) BEFORE the screaming began and then -- catch this -- putting him down to sleep on our bed. This is not something I had done -- partly out of fear of SIDS (we have a family friend whose 3 mos-old died during a daytime nap -- alone, in his crib), but also out of my adherence to the principles of AP, which I had interpreted to mean that babies should NEVER sleep alone in a room, and that the ideal place for them to sleep is ON A PERSON. (I think Meredith Small and Katie Granju actually say this in their books, but I could be wrong -- it's been a long time since I read either.)

With ds1, each time I tried to put him down asleep, he would wake up crying after 20 minutes or less, so I took this as proof that babies are not meant to be put down. But with ds2 we had to be persistent bc ds1 needed us, and the more we put him down (after he was asleep -- no CIO here), the longer he slept. Such that today he took 3 naps on our bed, for a total of 4 hours of daytime sleep! And guess what? NO SCREAMING! Really not any crying at all.

Bc I am an experienced mom, I realize this could 1) be a complete and total fluke and 2) could change tomorrow. But it has got me thinking about the AP ideal of wearing sleeping babies all day and I'm thinking that this is NOT the best way for *this* particular baby to sleep. And of course now that ds1 appears to not be that great a sleeper, I must admit that I am wondering if it's bc I didn't give him ANY PRACTICE in going to sleep or falling back asleep (like pjsmom suggests). I never would have let him cry, and I won't let ds2 cry either if it ever comes to that, BUT I do think there are ways we can be brave and TRY new things with our sleepy babies, even if they've protested in the past or we think they won't work.

HOLD ONTO THOSE FLAMETHROWERS! I am in no way generalizing that what is best for my babes is best for everyone else's too . . . Each family has to see what works best for them (without CIO, IMHO), but I am suggesting that perhaps my (and others') blind acceptance of everything in the AP lit just *might* have lead us down the road of sleep difficulties. We'll never know for sure, and believe me, I really do appreciate the perspective of some of the recent posters that sleep varies widely and that some people just aren't sleepers. It's all good food for thought . . . If you're not too sleep-deprived to think!


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## KariMichelle (Dec 1, 2004)

Wow, my ds is almost 1 and you all are scaring me!

I was promised things would get better at 18 months. Anyone have that experience? Because this kid is getting heavy and I can't be bouncing him around at 5 years old.









-Kari


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## nhklh (Oct 27, 2003)

Hi all, just wanted to chime in as my DS fights sleep too. He's 8 1/2 months old and high need, so we just put it down to that. Luckily for us though he's now pretty good at staying asleep, it's just the getting to sleep that's difficult. He's also a night owl, he's usually up until about midnight. We try to just go with it, which can be extremely challenging!

My hat is off to all of you, sleep deprivation is awful!


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## Mommy2Jack (Oct 4, 2004)

Ok, Maybe you've already read this book, but it worked miracles for my baby and my friends baby. My friends toddler will now go into his room and ask to go to bed. And even if he doesn't ask to go to bed, when they put him down for a nap or for the night he quietly lays down and puts himself to sleep without making a peep. There are no long drawn out rituals and NO CRYING! And he is quite possibly the happiest toddler I have ever met since they read this book.

The book is "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Dr. Marc Weissbluth. It does not require that you let your child cry it out if that's not something you're comfortable with, but he does believe that after a certain age, some crying is not harmful to the child. He absolutely does not believe that you should ever let a young baby cry, and clearly states that you should always respond to your baby.

It worked for me, maybe it would work for you as well


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Jessica,

Please don't feel guilty for wanting to get some sleep. I am so glad I stopped co-sleeping when my daughter was six months. I now have a 14 month-old who goes down easily with a cuddle and music playing. She sleeps 12 hours a night, and life is great. When she was six months old, she was up half the night, and fought sleep all the time. I saw the writing on the wall, and did not want to be struggleing with the sleep issues I see so oftne here. I was determined to "teach" her to go to sleep on her own, as gently as possible, starting with sleeping in her crib. The transtion took a few weeks, but as soon as I started letting her sleep in a crib, our sleep improved tremendously. She began to sleep through the night within a month. It took until 12 months before she could go to sleep on her own, I always rocked/nursed her. Now, I can do a little routine, say "goodnite," and she sleeps til morning at only 14-months. I like to stop in here and read about all the problems these poor sleepless moms are having trying desparately to do everything the "right AP" way. I am not a neglectful, mean, or "unattached" mama because my daughter sleeps in a crib, just a well-rested one. I never could have dealt with this stuff for the 2, 3, 4, 5 years I see people enduring here. My next baby will be a planned crib sleeper, for sure. I have heard of a handful of families who have blissful cosleeping experiences, but many more who end up living a nightmare. Not for me.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

My oldest child was terrible to put to sleep. My biggest regret with that child is that I wasted so much energy and time stressing over getting him to sleep. I wish I could have just chilled about it. I should never have allowed myself to spend 3 hours a day in a rocking chair trying to force something that he was so resistant to. It messed me up! If I could go back, I would try to put him down in 20 minute segments, and let him take "play breaks" and gone about my usual business for awhile until I felt ready to try again.

My youngest child went to sleep easily and then proceeded to wake a million times a night at the drop of a hat. I was dizzy with sleep deprivation. I remember standing in Borders holding Ferbers book with my hands shaking. But after reading for 10 minutes I was ready to vomit. I put it back on the shelf and walked out. I mostly just held him, for years.

At 4 and 8 years old, we have very few sleep problems. The 8 yo. reads himself to sleep alone each night. The 4 yo. needs us nearby while he drifts to sleeep and still wakes once in the night, but doesn't need to wake us up anymore.

One "trick" we discovered was that after about age 3, it became difficult to get enough activity into their days. They both need to go and go and go. They need tons of exersize, tons of fresh air. We take them swimming, we take them running around the block. Digging in the garden. We take them to the McD's playground when the weather is bad. We make them shovel snow and give them "jobs" like picking up sticks in the yard. We put an exersize mat by the stairs and let them jump off the steps and tumble across the mat. Anything we can think of. And it really makes a HUGE difference in how well they sleep. I feel like we need to move to a farm or something in order to really meet their needs!

Preschool also helped them both. Having that short structured time in their day somehow helped them to sleep at night. That, combined with giving up naps.


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

Breathe- I still use the exercise ball with my 2 year old son and although I sometimes laugh at the fact that his feet will soon be hitting the floor, I am comforted in knowing that we ALWAYS have this support when we need it for him to get to sleep. I've heard so many times how babies who are used to sleeping in their cribs never sleep good when they travel or at another person's house in town because they aren't in their own bed. Well, this is definitely one big perk of co-sleeping or at least sleeping near my child..he never has trouble sleeping when we travel or when we are in a different place .. we have the ball and a parent that gets him to sleep and then he's fine.

The same can be said for those kids who are put into their cribs for naps. I know some of my friends who are experiencing nap strikes with their kids...I'm thankful that my son is used to the ball and will fall asleep when we bounce. I'm pretty much guaranteed that he'll nap every day. (I realize this may change!)

Like I said before, all our babies are different and there are so many different ways to aid them in their sleep, but they do eventually go to sleep on their own---this we HAVE to remember!

It's nice to hear stories of children who have made the sleep transition better than others. I know there are tons more out there, but we just don't hear their stories in this forum because they aren't having "trouble".


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67*
I like to stop in here and read about all the problems these poor sleepless moms are having trying desparately to do everything the "right AP" way.

Gee, that's nice. It also has a certain dark amusement value, coming from the mother of a single 14 month old.


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
I wasted so much energy and time stressing over getting him to sleep. I wish I could have just chilled about it. I should never have allowed myself to spend 3 hours a day in a rocking chair trying to force something that he was so resistant to. It messed me up! If I could go back, I would try to put him down in 20 minute segments, and let him take "play breaks" and gone about my usual business for awhile until I felt ready to try again.

My guy is only 7 months old, but we've already figured out that if he's really really fighting sleep, the best thing for all of us is to just get back up and let him tire out. Usually this doesn't take all that long; it's almost like he realizes he got a say in the matter, and he then feels free to express how tired he really is.

Sometimes it pains me to do the *getting back up* thing because I'm tired or my arms hurt from a full day of caring for him, but it's the best thing for us all. No crying, no squirming, no waking at 3 because he wasn't really ready to go down.

Play breaks, or just "ok you can be awake a little longer" breaks have really helped us.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Breathe, I totally relate to your last post! It is impossible to have an infant sleeping on you when you're also dealing with a 2-3 year old. I tried that, and poor ds never got a good nap. It made him very grumpy. Recently, I started lying down in the bed with him at naptime. He nurses for as long as he wants, then falls asleep. I stay in the bed with him unless dd needs me. I get up and see to her needs then lay back down with ds. I've been doing the same at night. I was putting him to sllep on the couch, but that meant that I had to be laying there with him until we all went to bed. He would often get distracted and wake up. If he's in bed, this doesn't happen. It's so weird to have one who isn't a "good" sleeper and then one who is. I was shocked when I put ds on his play gym mat while I changed dd's diaper and he was asleep when I went to pick him up. I honestly didn't know babies could do that!

The nature over nurture really becomes a reality when a second child comes. Such different personalities, it sometimes seems as though my parenting doesn't make any difference at all!


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## jlspalding (May 4, 2004)

Breathe,

I have had the same thought so many times! I keep going back over what I did, and thinking, "well, if I just wasn't so worried about NEVER every crying", and trying to do everything AP, without really trying some other methods and doing something differently. I wonder if the first time mother thing made me too cautious.

I just want to add that I am still co-sleeping, I just want to not have to go to bed at 7pm. I have not had ANY time to myself, NIGHT OR NAPS, because I cannot leave DD to sleep. She always wakes up, cries, whatever. Ever since infancy. AP is responding to your childs needs versus wants, and at this point, she NEEDS sleep. She wants me to be with her, but I can't do it anymore. If I don't have some me time, I will explode. I find it odd and suspicious that we can all agree that AP is a much much more demanding form of parenting, but I don't hear alot of comments about mothers who are burning out.

Stafl, to clarify my comments about the sleep book, I wasn't interested at all in CIO truths, lies, any of it. I think we deserve the real truth, the whole spectrum of how babies and small children REALLY sleep. Like all the very different stories from this post, it would settle so many mother's nerves, just to know that there not alone. I am not interested in judgement of the variety, I just think mothers need to hear it. Maybe especially the ones who would CIO in the first place.

Jessica


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

OMG -- I have to share this. My dd is on the phone with her grandmother, explaining that she does not need to sleep. "But it's just hard to be a toddler, because when I stay up all night my mommy and daddy won't hang out with me, so I have to go to sleep because that's where mommy and daddy are. I don't like going to sleep, because I'm not tired." (Btw we do not force her to come to bed, she'll stay up for awhile playing then get tired and join us. Except oops, she never gets tired.







)


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## eqleslie (May 4, 2004)

I hate to even say this because you guys have probably already tried this route. Do you think it could be possible that it's some food or food group in their diet causing them to have these sleep issues? I know a few people that have issues with things that aren't even foods. They have issues with certain flavorings, colorings, preservatives, and/or scents. It could be their way of coping. I also know that when I get overtired I get so grumpy that it takes me a couple of hours to wind down enough to fall asleep, even when I'm laying in the bed. I will just lay there fuming that I have to go to sleep. And I'm 25. I think my 1yo has the same problem. If he's overtired he will fight sleep like nobodies business. I have to catch him before he even yawns to get him to sleep. I don't have any trouble keeping him asleep however. Once asleep he nurses about every hour for about 5-10 minutes without waking up all night. He has done that since he was a newborn. He just HATES going to sleep for me. (He has always gone to sleep for grandma just fine... go figure) Grandma has always talked to him when she sees him start to get tired saying things like you look like you're getting tired. It's almost time to let our bodies rest. You may not need rest but your body does. etc. She talks like she is just trying to help him get more in tune with his body needs. Making it his job to let us know when he's tired, hungry, wet, poopy, etc. So far he is doing very well. I hope I have some ideas for you







Good luck. I know I have spent several nights wanting to shake my ds and scream "Just go to sleeeeeeeeep"


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## bright eagle (Feb 14, 2004)

hey you guys

im a single mom of ds 3 and dd almost 1. im not gonna get into the, um, challenges i have encountered. i read the first 10 posts or so and i think my story would be redundant. i have noticed with my son that if we dont have a running/active playtime before bed then the evening goes to pot. so before i put dd down around 8 or 8:30 we run around and play hide and chase, jump on the bed( one of my favorite unconventional parenting tools) dance and other high energy games. then i put on a video and ask elijah to play quietly in the living room while i put luna to sleep. then we go through our routine which pretty much developed on its own. he goes to bed around 10 to 10:30. kinda late, i know. but that gives us some time together. oh yeah. and ive never laid him down and walked away. i have to lay with him or, at best, sit in a chair. im resigned. weve had a lot of hard times the last couple years so ive just been going with whatever works, to walking a 30 pound kid for 45 min 2-3 times a night, to nursing to sleep, to videos, whatever worked at the time the quickest. now our routine is workable. im gonna work on him going to sleep without me near when we move into our new house. i think its just a balance between patience, faith that things will not always be this way, and knowing when to push and how hard. but one things for sure. things will change. being a parent of a young child is just plain hard!!!!!
good luck


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## bright eagle (Feb 14, 2004)

oh yeah!!
with my son i thought crying was traumatizing so i did everything i could to keep him from crying and was eaten up with guilt. i am now of the opinion that crying is an emotion. natural. clean and simple. so now i feel like crying with an attachment figure near is not traumatic. crying alone is. remembering crying in my mothers arms or grandmothers arms does not bring up feelings of despair. rather feelings of security. some things are just hard to learn. its a good thing we have crying as a way to get it out.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eqleslie*
I hate to even say this because you guys have probably already tried this route. Do you think it could be possible that it's some food or food group in their diet causing them to have these sleep issues? I know a few people that have issues with things that aren't even foods. They have issues with certain flavorings, colorings, preservatives, and/or scents. It could be their way of coping.










this bears repeating! and it could also be a sensitivity to home and body products. I think I posted this earlier, but I get itchy all over if there's any sort of fabric softener in my sheets or clothes. No redness, no sign of irritation, just an itchy crawly feeling all over that keeps me awake.
Here's that link to Dr. Sears' info on sleep I know I read in one of his books somewhere the association between allergies and sleep problems. And that sometimes the only sign that there is an allergy is trouble going to or staying asleep.


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