# Please help me understand something...



## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

I am very serious about this, very serious, this is no joke. Would you please tell me why you would want to have a child? Here's my situation in a nutshell.

I am 45 years old and I think I am pregnant. I have been trying to get myself to the OB for two weeks and I just don't want to know. I don't like children, and have never liked children since the age of 12. I could never understand why anyone would want to be a mother.

I had a termination years ago, partly due to the fact that I didn't want a child and partially due to the fact that I can't handle labor. I can't handle pain--I have had two wisdom teeth impacted for 9 years, and I can't have them out in the office, due to the fact that I had such a severe emotional reaction to the impending surgery that the oral surgeon won't do it. He's afraid I will have a stroke or bleed excessively due to high blood pressure, crying, vomiting, racing heart, etc. I spent almost a year in a cast rather than have surgery on a shattered ankle because I was such a wreck the surgeon didn't want to have to operate. I mean, I can't handle pain of any kind, so labor has always been an absolutely out of the question situation.

I am now in the position where I am going to have to have another termination, which is fine with me, but the father is a great guy and I can't tell him about it. He has two kids, loves them, and will flip out. He agreed that we will not have a child, due to my age, but that was before this took place. He will want it, and I can't handle it. I would rather shoot myself quickly than be pregnant or go through labor. The whole thing makes me sick. I love him and I feel badly for him, though.

I was discussing my dilemna with a friend, and she made an excellent point: why do these people want to have children, be pregnant, deal with the problems, pee themselves for the rest of their lives, vomit for months on end, and then deal with labor? I will admit, that of all of my friends from college who have children--and it's not a majority of women, I will admit--not a single one would do it again. Not one. The ones who had a child didn't have a second.

Maybe there is something about this I don't understand. I never did understand it, but then again, with the first termination my then-husband didn't want it, either. I didn't think twice about this question. We divorced for reasons other than the termination.

Maybe you can help me understand why you would do this to your bodies and lives. I guess I missed something somewhere.

Good luck to all of you with your pregnancies!:


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

You are right about one thing - you don't understand. I could ask you Why Not? I have thought about having children since I was a child myself. I have had 4 children and hope to have another. I love being pregnant, I birth my children at home without fear and even after delivering 4 children vaginally have only peed myself once and that was in the middle of a major laughing fit









Instead of allowing yourself to get pregnant and then terminating as easily as one might get their oil changed why not get your tubes tied? Or at least an IUD or other form of long term birth control?







It is clear that you don't want children and I think it is great that you know what you want/don't want but if that is how you feel then why would you allow yourself to get pregnant?









Keri


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

If you're so sure that you don't want to have a child, I'm wondering why you are asking? Are you just curious, or do you think maybe you might change your mind if presented with a different perspective?

In any case, your question is a valid one of course, and I applaud you for having the courage to ask it in a forum filled with very pro-children women, lol! I've had run-ins with some "child-free" people, and they were *so* sure that children and children-lovers are evil and/or miserable that they will not open their minds to any other possibility, and that can only perpetuate animosity between the families with children and the child-free, which IMO hurts us all.

Also as someone who didn't want children and had no interest in them whatsoever, yet ended up with four of her own, I'm probably in a very good position to answer your questions.







I have to go do dinner right now, but I just wanted to let you know that I will be back tonight or tomorrow to talk more about this.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Sounds like motherhood just isn't for you. Good luck with your decision.


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

It sounds like you might have a problem with surgery rather than pain per se? Impacted wisdom teeth and a shattered ankle are certainly painful. Pregnancy, labor and birth do not need to involve surgery, nor would you necessarily vomit for months on end (though some do) or have incontinence problems (uncommon with normal vaginal birth and can be addressed).

Not wanting children is another story. I can halfway relate, because I never thought I wanted children; my first was accidentally conceived. I did not want to abort or give her up though, and I'm so glad she (and now her sister, who was very much planned) came along. I was at something of a loose end when I found myself pregnant; my life wasn't going much of anywhere. Having children has given me direction, purpose and a great deal of joy. If you already have those things in your life, though, and cannot or will not adjust your life and your thinking in the ways necessary to becoming a parent, you are probably better off terminating.


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## 13moons (Aug 9, 2002)

Pregnancy, childbirth and raising children is so much more than a physical experience. I have been pregnant three times, delivered three healthy babies vaginally and am now raising three of the most amazing people I have ever known in my life. Never once out of three pregnancies did I vomit; I had no "problems" to deal with; I have never "peed myself"; childbirth is the most profoundly moving and empowering experience I have ever had. The pain was nothing compared to the knowledge that MY body is capable of such an amazing show of strength.
I have watched these same three children begin as infants with nothing but love and wonder and trust in their faces grow and develop to become people who have their own amazing personalities and experiences and dreams. They are brilliant and funny and opinionated and loving and generally just really wonderful people. I feel so unbelievably lucky that they are a part of my life. My children are not something I have "done to" my body or my life; they are a part of me and have enriched my life and my husband's lives in ways I wouldn't possibly have enough room to express on this thread. Hope that helps you to understand a little of why some of us choose to be parents.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I can so relate. I accidentally get pregnant in 2000. I was devestated. I never wanted children. Never liked them. I was slightly suicidal when I found out. Well, I miscarried and I have to say it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Between that, 9-11 and my mother passing all soon after the miscarriage, I decided to take a long look at my life. 37 and what did I have etc. I had a kind of epiphany. I decided that we would throw out the birth control and see what happened. If I wasn't pregnant by my 38th birthday, I was getting my tubes tied as a gift to myself. Well, wouldn't ya know next month, I turn up preggers!! I was scared, excited, confused, surprised.

My pregnancy went great, my labor and delivery sucked (that's a whole other story) but I knew it would end. It's all about the prize anyway isn't it?

Well, I'm not going to say it's been perfect, but it has been wonderful. More wonderful than I ever expected or could have believed. I still wonder sometimes "what have I gotten myself into" and when that happens, I just try to remember that this happened for a reason. She is here to teach me and I need to learn. Boy am I learning!! It's amazing how your mind can open up to new possibilities when you are no longer the only one that counts.

Think about it...do some soul searching...read posts here...It's not easy, it's not perfect, but you might just find out it's worth everything.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Truthfully? I personally believe that nobody should become a parent unless they are absolutely, 100% certain that they want a child. It's normal to have doubts, day-to-day and in the long term, about one's ability to handle birth or one's ability to be a good parent, and to wonder how a child will fit into your lifestyle, but if somewhere deep down you don't feel certain that you want to open your life to a child, then you have no business having children.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Children aren't for everyone. But just for kicks I will give you my answers:

Quote:

I was discussing my dilemna with a friend, and she made an excellent point: why do these people want to have children, be pregnant, deal with the problems, pee themselves for the rest of their lives, vomit for months on end, and then deal with labor?
I have had 2 sons and I have never peed myself...EVER. I have never "dealt with problems" in regard to childbirth, nor did I ever vomit one single time. I won't say pregnancy is a walk in the park, I actually don't like being pregnant but I do love labor and delivery...and I mean LOVE it







!!

I'm pretty sure you can handle childbirth, lol. Seems like you've built it up into something that it isn't. I will tell you that I would rather give birth than have a cavity filled any day. I have never considered myself to have a high tolerance for pain and I have begged to be put under for fillings because I am deathly afraid of them and they always hurt so badly!!!!!!!!!! BUT I absolutely love giving birth. Once I educated myself and prepared myself for childbirth it wasn't overly painful. I made sure I had support around me so that I could handle it. Women have been doing this for centuries. Although given the current state of childbirth in America I can see why you would be so afraid of it. Get yourself back to a primal sense and then you won't fear the pain.

But back to your question. The main reason that prompted my desire to have children was a selfish one. I come from a big family and I see how family has been their for my grandparents/great grandparents when nobody else was. I had a fear of growing old and being alone. Of course now that I have children there is so much more to why I love it and why I want more children. I could not have prepared myself for how much bigger my heart and spirit would grow with the birth of my children. Another reason I want to have children is purely to experience the joy of giving birth. It is amazing and empowering and spiritual. There is truly nothing like it.

~Erin


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I have never peed myself either, and have been pregnant 5 times, given birth 3, and never threw up once, not even during labor.

I was one of those women who never wanted to have kids either. I never played with dolls. I never daydreamed about babies, or getting married. I never peered in baby carriages or cooed in line at kids. Its not that i didnt like kids, but kids and pregnant women were kind of invisible to me









But I became unexpectedly pregnant with my daughter on the birth control pill and was instantly attached. I went on to have two more kids and have never regretted it. being pregnant, giving birth and being their mother is simply the best thing that I have ever done.

However, it is not for everyone. I agree with the previous poster, whether you decide to proceed with the pregnancy or terminate, you should probably get your tubes tied or some other sort of very effective birthcontrol.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:

I will tell you that I would rather give birth than have a cavity filled any day. I have never considered myself to have a high tolerance for pain and I have begged to be put under for fillings because I am deathly afraid of them and they always hurt so badly!!!!!!!!!! BUT I absolutely love giving birth.
I second that! I have four kids and love giving birth but I haven;t been to a dentist in 6 yrs.


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## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

Hmmm...it's good to know that you all had these great birth experiences, but I don't know anyone personally who has had anything remotely as wonderful as you all project. To a person, none of my friends from college who have a child would do it again. To A Person. They all had such a bad experience it wasn't worth it. One of them has a PTSD problem to this day and was suicidal afterwards. Another one has permanent sciatica, and they all have peed themselves. Hmmm..that kind of labor I can't handle, and frankly, I am not doing that to my body. I attended one labor in my lifetime and I was violently ill. It disgusted me, it really did.

As far as this primal stuff is concerned, to each her own and all, but I am not a granola-eating earth mother type. That's one of the reasons I think this gig is not for me. I have about as much belief in this primal woman business as I do the the Keebler elves.

I think maybe it's my lack of connection with the the caregiving and bonding stuff of little kids who don't reciprocate in a way I seem to understand, coupled with primal woman business that doesn't appeal to me, that makes it just not my gig.

Maybe I just don't get it. That's what I am starting to think. There must be a connection mechanism that isn't there for me. Hmmm...


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## kristenburgess (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
Hmmm...it's good to know that you all had these great birth experiences, but I don't know anyone personally who has had anything remotely as wonderful as you all project. To a person, none of my friends from college who have a child would do it again. To A Person. They all had such a bad experience it wasn't worth it. One of them has a PTSD problem to this day and was suicidal afterwards. Another one has permanent sciatica, and they all have peed themselves. Hmmm..that kind of labor I can't handle, and frankly, I am not doing that to my body. I attended one labor in my lifetime and I was violently ill. It disgusted me, it really did.

As far as this primal stuff is concerned, to each her own and all, but I am not a granola-eating earth mother type. That's one of the reasons I think this gig is not for me. I have about as much belief in this primal woman business as I do the the Keebler elves.

I think maybe it's my lack of connection with the the caregiving and bonding stuff of little kids who don't reciprocate in a way I seem to understand, coupled with primal woman business that doesn't appeal to me, that makes it just not my gig.

Maybe I just don't get it. That's what I am starting to think. There must be a connection mechanism that isn't there for me. Hmmm...

Perhaps you should seek out more friends then just those from college who had "such horrible experiences." What do you want? Everyone is sharing with you *why* they went through (even enjoyed) pregnancies and births, and you just keep harping on these college buddies with bad experiences...

I don't find labor disgusting at all. It's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And to go through it is an amazing, life changing experience. For me, and many other women, it was wonderful. I suppose it is primal - and you must understand something about primal, since your urges to eat, sleep, breathe, and go to the bathroom are all primal - but more than that it's empowering.

A baby comes through you and not for you. A child is a gift to the world and we as mothers are honored to take those little hands and lead them into tomorrow.

If you can't handle pregnancy, birth, and children, then I'm going to guess a forum on birthing might not have what you're looking for.

and after three children, I've never peed myself, had chronic pain, been suicidal, or compared myself to Keebler elves


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

I have never peed myself either. Although, I was one of the unlucky ones who vomited for months on end.

I was terribly afraid of birth as well. I had heard nothing but horror stories. I read as much as I could and took a lot of responsibility for my own birth. If I had sat back passively and just done what the doctor ordered, I'd have had a horror story too.

I can't describe how wonderful it was when my daughter was born. I wouldn't have changed it for the world. It has made me a better person to love someone else as much as I love her.

As far as what you decide, I hope that you make the best decision for you and are happy with it. Perhaps you might want to look into a more permanent form of birth control if this is how you really feel.

Good luck.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:

Hmmm...it's good to know that you all had these great birth experiences, but I don't know anyone personally who has had anything remotely as wonderful as you all project.
That is probalby because most of the people you know likely had highly medicalized births instead of primal ones...yeah that is right *GASP*, I said "primal". That was the best world I could think of at the time but what I mean is that childbirth has been turned into a problem that needs to be treated by $$Doctors who take away a woman's choices and tells her what to do/makes her think her body won't perform. Undoubtabley many of your friends had inductions, epidurals, forcep/vaccum assisted deliveries or c-sections which in turn likely led to most of the problems they encountered with childbirth. Turns out contrary to what many $$OBs would have you believe, women can do it on their own. Imagine that...women are strong and powerful humans and their bodies can do what nature intended for them to do









In all seriousness though I have known of several women to suffer from PTSD after births that ended up pretty nasty because of their OB trying to make sure he wouldn't get sued or because he was trying to make his tee time. It doesn't sound like you want to have children, but if you did I'd say just take the time to educate yourself and you can probabley avoid all of that.


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## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

_A baby comes through you and not for you. A child is a gift to the world and we as mothers are honored to take those little hands and lead them into tomorrow.

If you can't handle pregnancy, birth, and children, then I'm going to guess a forum on birthing might not have what you're looking for._

This is the right board for me, although my presence here might make some others quite uncomfortable. Chin up, I will be gone soon, and then you can all say good riddance!









So far, it appears that the desire to be a mother has to do with your inherent value system. There is definitely a sense of appreciation for the process of mothering here that I am lacking. I think it's great that you view children as a gift to the world, and it's important that you feel it is an honor to usher them into the world. It all seems to boil down to what a woman believes has the most value for her--and what she is willing to invest in the process of raising those children she brings into the world. And, you clearly are quite excited by the good work you do.

There is quite a respect for the process of giving birth here, which is certainly the best thing if you are going to repeatedly go through labor. I am glad it is empowering for some, but I personally can't figure out why it would be empowering. I would imagine it is perspective. While it irritates some here when I supposedly harp on the negative birth experiences, there can be no doubt that a plethora of those experiences do exist, and are sadly occurring as I write. I guess it is just what you are willing to experience if you value the process of motherhood and believe it to be so altruistic and noble.

As for the medical aspects of labor, my mother is in medicine, and I don't share the opinion that MD's are inherently evil-doers. I realize there is a significant percentage of mothers who take a different view. Again, beliefs and values.

And finally, I have faithfully used birth control all my life. I have suffered two failures, repeat: two failures. I have never, NEVER, yes that's right, not even once in college, have I ever had sex without birth control. Nothing is perfect, and I am far from careless.

Thank you for your insight and input. It has great value. I have a much clearer understanding of the attraction to motherhood for others. At least now it makes sense even if it doesn't make sense for me.

Have a good night.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

I just wanted to point out that it isn't just that some people think OBs are "evil". It is actually a statistical fact that mothers who birth with OBs are more likely to have episiotomies/4th degree tears, vaccum/forcep assisted deliveries and c-sections. All of these things lead to delivery complications and generally overall much more traumatic birth experiences. Not really something you can blame on a difference of perception. They are facts.

Sleep tight


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## littlemama06 (Oct 29, 2005)

I am sorry,for you.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Quote:

That is probalby because most of the people you know likely had highly medicalized births instead of primal ones...
I was thinking this too. Most of my friends had horrible birth experiences that put them off childbearing, too. None of them had a natural birth.

And natural birthing doesn't mean that one thinks docs are evil-doers. Both my parents are family practice doctors, and I think they're great. But I also think that surgeons should do surgery, and not attend births, unless there is a real emergency that require surgery.









I have two babies. I did pee myself. I did vomit. Contractions hurt. But I found pregnancy to be awe-inspiring. There is *nothing* like feeling those little feet kick, and respond to music and your voice. I still remember when my fist son was 7mo in the womb, and started exploring the indentation his father's arm (flung over my belly while we were sleeping) made in his little "home". I could feel his tiny hand going up and down the length of dh's arm. Then he flipped and gave a whopping big kick right in the middle. It was the coolest thing eve.
I did find the second birth empowering. I'm not sure how to expalain it, but it did have a lot to do with being free to do what I wanted, and not bound to doctor's expectations or orders. I'm not a feminist, but that was one time when I could have rightly said "I am woman, hear me ROAR".







And of course, dh is always awe-struck when I give birth.









I will go through pregnancy and childbirth as many times as the good Lord will let me, since the prize is precious children.

I'm sorta wondering about your posting here too. And why you don't take some permanent measures against pregnancy, if you are so antagonistic towards being a parent?


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## mama in the forest (Apr 17, 2006)

I can see why this is an important decision for you right now. At 45, this is probably the last time you will be confronted with the choice: do i want a child? And it isn't an easy choice for everyone.

I think that it's very very difficult to process what it would be like for _you_ to bring a child into the world.....and to be able to visualize pregnancy and birth and then think it through to the end result of having a child. It's one of those things that is so huge that it's practically impossible to know how you would feel throughout that whole path. And there is an element of the unknown......a mystery per say....in that you do not know what kind of experience it will be for you. I know that before I became a mother I had no idea what it would be like for me, and how I would respond to it. I mean, you _can't_ know what it will be like to actually have a child of your own until you do it. No one elses' experience is really very relevant to you......you would have your own unique experience.

Quote:

I can't handle pain--I have had two wisdom teeth impacted for 9 years, and I can't have them out in the office, due to the fact that I had such a severe emotional reaction to the impending surgery that the oral surgeon won't do it. He's afraid I will have a stroke or bleed excessively due to high blood pressure, crying, vomiting, racing heart, etc. I spent almost a year in a cast rather than have surgery on a shattered ankle because I was such a wreck the surgeon didn't want to have to operate. I mean, I can't handle pain of any kind, so labor has always been an absolutely out of the question situation.
This might be something worth having a look at. Nobody likes pain. And when asked, most of us would say we would prefer to NOT handle pain of any kind. It sounds to me like you HAVE handled pain.....your impacted wisdom sound very painful to me - you certainly wouldn't have any pain _during_ surgery and I cannot imagine feeling more pain after surgery than you already do.....yet you have handled this pain for 9 years? If you would have had the surgery any pain would have probably been gone within a week or so. And a shattered ankle had to hurt like hell! But you got through it.

My point is that you _did_ handle the pain. You handled it because you had to - you had no choice. I suspect that any pain you were to feel during labor or birth would be much the same. You would handle it just as you have had to handle other physical pains in your life.

Now, at 45, having such an emotional reaction to the _idea_ of pain might be worth investigating within yourself.

Anyway, I am not trying to convince you of anything or sway your choice one way or the other. It is completely valid to feel that you do not want children. You are with a good man?.....do you love him? Sometimes the heart matters more than the head?


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## AnnesMoM (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm not sure what you're looking for here, the people on this forum are not likely to validate your feelings that "Being a mother was/is/could be the worst mistake I've ever made".


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

All I can say is that no matter what anyone says here, you will not receive any benefit unless you open your mind to thinking about things in a different way than you always have. You ask for advice and personal experience and then try to dismiss what is said as not being relevant to you. I'm not saying you need to, but why go to a group of natural living, natural birthing, child adoring women for their opinion if you don't want to accept that what we have to say may hold some grain of truth in general, not just for us crunchy granola types.

And no, OB's are not evil. There is a time and a place for them. However, childbirth is a normal part of the human condition and treating it like a medicalized event is more likely to cause physical permanent harm (i.e. incontinance, PTSD, etc). For a normal healthy woman, a normal healthy unmedicalized birth is not likely to cause many permanent physical changes (although I do sometimes pee myself when I'm pregnant, never after.)

Personally I find it strange that all of your friends don't care for children. I wonder what happened to make all of them feel that way because from my experience, the general population has a good mix of people that want or don't want kids. That only want one or that want more. Personally I couldn't care less what any person knows is right for them. It's not my business and children certainly aren't for everyone. But ALL of them? What happened? If you really are thinking about having this baby, before you make any rational decision, you will need to open your mind to the posibility that there really is no one answer for anyone. The world is full of many possibilities and it is up to you how you accept and interpret them all. No matter what your decision is, it's all about how you choose to handle the consequences that go with it. It's not about anything external.


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## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

I came here looking for answers from people who clearly understand something that I don't, and when I express reservations or objections, I get called names. Delightful.

Thanks. I made a mistake here. I won't be back. At least I tried to understand...


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## kristenburgess (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
I came here looking for answers from people who clearly understand something that I don't, and when I express reservations or objections, I get called names. Delightful.

Thanks. I made a mistake here. I won't be back. At least I tried to understand...









I don't see where anyone called you a name. You said you came to try and understand. Well...we need to try and understand you too









You seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around the thought that pregnancy, birth, and children can be a *good* thing.

We're having a hard time wrapping our heads around the thought that you came here asking for information and instead have tried to disregard everything we've said only to storm off when people question "what exactly is it that you're looking for?"

Because that would help us to understand what it is you need. If you want somebody to affirm your belief that pregnancy, birth, and children are horrible it sounds like your college girls are the way to go.

If you want someone to tell you the reality that pregnancy, birth, and children can be a wonderful experience, then maybe this is the place for you.

It's a bit frustrating for me, however, to try and share with you what you asked only to be told again and again "my college friends had horrible experiences and I don't want to pee myself." You ask for information, but you don't want to be open to that information. That's confusing


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## foenyx (Sep 20, 2003)

One person mentioned the post was trollish. That is not actually calling you a name, just ascribing a description to your post. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the information you have posted about yourself, your friends and your situation but it is within the realm of possibility I suppose.

But PP have made good points. Maybe you could be more specific about what you are looking for? Maybe you don't like the answers or the options, but that's what's there. Coming to a "natural family living community" (as it says on the top of the page) and expecting responses that are against that designation just plain doesn't make sense.

These women have shown they are more than willing to share and answer any questions but it doesn't seem like you are even sure of what you are asking. Normally, when that happens the person is either genuinely confused, or- when their posts keep adding 'information' that goes against the tone of the board- it does end up being 'trollish'.


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## pumpkinsmama (Aug 20, 2005)

There is no joy in the world like holding your child for the first time, unless it is seeing their first smile, hearing their first laugh, watching their first steps, hearing their first "mama", getting their first sloppy kiss, taking their first bath... I truly believe, and I lived a lot before I settled down.. there is no adrenaline rush, no drug, nothing in the world like the happiness your child gives you just by being themselves. But you will never understand that until you are there. I don't really even like some other peoples kids... honest.

ETA: and just when you thought you could never love another human more... you do! Each day with a child is precious and entertaining and joyous. There are bad days but wow! Even the bad days have little moments, the kiss goodnight, the hug after a tantrum... You will feel your heart grow and grow and grow and still find more love!

But I don't know what it is like to have a child unplanned/unasked for. I would hope that the sheer amazing wonder of giving birth would change anyone, but if you really want answers that fit your situation I don't think mine will help.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt, but you have to understand that it isn't personal. Trolls start out this way, and they are a *pain* *in* *the* *ass*. So people are understandably wary when someone comes on expressing sentiments that a troll might express, and your motivations are not yet known to be innocent. If you really are interested in finding out more, you just need to shrug that off and continue on with your good intentions. Plenty of us have taken the time to answer your questions sincerely. If that's not good enough for you to stay, so be it; that says to me that our input was not valued by you in the first place, and that's fine.

If you do happen to change your mind and make it back, or on the chance that someone else has similar feelings and is still reading, I'm going to continue to answer your questions. They're interesting to me anyway.









Quote:

To a person, none of my friends from college who have a child would do it again. To A Person. They all had such a bad experience it wasn't worth it. One of them has a PTSD problem to this day and was suicidal afterwards. Another one has permanent sciatica, and they all have peed themselves. Hmmm..that kind of labor I can't handle, and frankly, I am not doing that to my body. I attended one labor in my lifetime and I was violently ill. It disgusted me, it really did.
Let me guess: did they have managed hospital births? That is a very different beast from non-managed birth.There are reams of scientific explanations and evidence for why this is, and if you are interested in finding out why your friends were unnecessarily harmed, we would be very happy to provide resources for you to do the research.

Quote:

As far as this primal stuff is concerned, to each her own and all, but I am not a granola-eating earth mother type. That's one of the reasons I think this gig is not for me. I have about as much belief in this primal woman business as I do the the Keebler elves.








Well, the difference is that there is no scientific evidence for the Keebler elves.









Hormones are extremely powerful substances. They don't have much to do with whether one eats granola, I don't think, but they do create and facilitate the instincts for giving birth and mothering without trauma to the body or soul. The part of the human brain that is responsible for producing these particular hormones is the primal brain. Stimulation of the neocortex, the new part of the brain, interferes with that hormone production. That's why, for instance, you probably wouldn't be able to come to orgasm with your mother-in-law watching or with someone talking to you about stock options. And it's exactly the same reason why so many women's birth processes are dysfunctional, leading to traumatic experiences.

Quote:

I think maybe it's my lack of connection with the the caregiving and bonding stuff of little kids who don't reciprocate in a way I seem to understand, coupled with primal woman business that doesn't appeal to me, that makes it just not my gig.
The love and nuturing of children is something that can be partially conditioned by one's upbringing and experiences in life. In this society, though, many women don't receive that at all, and have to rely on hormonal changes and personal relationships for that. It sounds like you have had none of these so far. That doesn't mean you couldn't ever -- I'll illustrate why when I tell my story in a bit. But even if you could, it doesn't mean you should try. Hopefully, for the sake of tolerance, you will come to understand that there _is_ something true and real and good about pregnancy and birth and motherhood that other women are experiencing that makes it valuable to them. But if you don't (won't) believe that it could be so for you, why not just let it go?


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

Why would I go through all that stuff to have kids? Because there is NO greater joy then loving somebody that much! That is really what it boils down to.... it is amazing and fulfilling to have someone to love that much. I don't care if they love me back, I just love loving them.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

And finally, in answer to the OP:

First I want to address your misconceptions about the physical part of bearing a child. It's true that some people have difficult pregnancies and births, but it's by no means "just the way pregnancy and birth are" any more than illness and physical handicaps are "just the way life is." There will always be people who suffer physically for various reasons, but it is *not* inherently part of life *or* bearing a child.

Women have many different experiences of birth -- it's not all the trauma you see in the movies. In fact, there are many possible ways to lessen pain or bypass it. One major way is to avoid giving birth in an environment that prevents the body from laboring normally (as hospitals are notorious for.) Another way is to get drugs (although these carry substantial risks and don't always work as desired.) Another is to have a cesarean under general anesthesia (although obviously this also carries risks.) Another would be to do hypnobithing. Etc. As well, not all women experience the same kind of labor pain. Given the right conditions (which are unfortunately uncommon in our culture, due to birth being almost always medicalized) there have been women who have experienced birth as actually pleasurable. My own labors were unusually painful (I suspect due to a physical abnormality) but there were also quite pleasurable and edifying aspects to them as well. I did have one traumatic birth (my first), but it turned out on closer intellectual inspection that it wasn't the pain in itself that made it traumatic, but what was done to me in the name of "birth management". My births that were allowed to happen gently, spontaneously, and naturally were painful, yes, but they were also empowering and not in the least traumatic.

(As an aside -- did your doctors not offer you sedation at least? Gas? When I had my wisdom teeth extracted, one was deeply infected which somehow interfered with the novocaine taking full effect. The doctor said that if I began to feel it was too painful, that he would like to put me "under". I opted not to do that, but I was comforted by having that option. And what about abortion? Surely you can't entirely avoid pain with that? So what do you do?

And -- I'm curious -- is it the thought of the pain in your body that is really so horrific for you, or the idea of being handled by someone who can cause you pain? What happens when you get a headache? Have menstrual cramps? Cut your finger?)

As for incontinence, it's definitely not something that has to be. It is far more likely with a medically managed birth -- for instance, if you hire a doctor who won't let you up off your back in labor so that your body has difficulty expelling the baby, and you have to push for hours as hard as you can (not normal) and he cuts an episiotomy and uses forceps (again, not normal,) well, you may very well end up with incontinence. If your body is not prevented (by medical management) from releasing the hormones that will allow it to open up fully, there's no reason for your body to experience damage and trauma from it. Think about it, what sense does it make from an evolutionary and biological standpoint for it to harm the mother? If you were to do a poll of women who have given birth naturally (without routine intervention) you would find overwhelmingly women who are whole and healthy. In my case, I have given birth four times and have zero health problems connected to the births. No incontinence and no sexual dysfunction. And breastfeeding is protecting me from cancer for that matter.









I did have some nausea (no vomiting) and exhaustion with pregnancy that I chalk up to trying to still behave as if I wasn't pregnant -- essentially, allowing stress into my life. Pregnancy and stress don't mix well. I also had some depression and stress due to not being accepting of the changes that were happening in my mind and body. But once I let go of trying to still be like I was before, pregnancy became a very enjoyable experience. I enjoyed the altered state of consciousness it put me in: the sweet dreaminess and slowing down of time, the increased sensuality, and the awakening of my intuitive ability. These were all very precious gifts that I now cannot imagine having missed out on. I won't be getting pregnant again, and I have spent time grieving that I will never experience these things again as I did during pregnancy and the immediate postpartum.

Now as to the question of why someone would want children in their lives... I'm one of those people who never had any maternal urge, and never had any interest in children whatsoever. In fact being around them made me uncomfortable. I didn't understand why women would coo over babies much less think they were cute. Then I got accidentally pregnant. I was with a man who I was deeply in love with, and suddenly I just felt that it was meant to be. So I kept the baby. It was still a huge transition for me to make, emotionally and spiritually. I made some big mistakes with my health care, the birth was a mess, my living and financial situation wasn't ideal, and as a result I had postpartum depression. The first year after the birth was very hard. And then as I educated myself, as I sought therapeutic avenues to work through it, as my relationship with my husband became even deeper and more trusting, as I shut out the things in my life that were coming between me and my child bonding, and most importantly as I began to see my baby as a real person with intelligence and personality and endearing qualities, I became a mother, not just biologically, but in my heart. I fell in love with a fierceness and a passion that I'd never felt before, and it eclipsed everything else that I had previously valued in my life.

I was lucky. Not every woman is allowed (or allows herself) to achieve that. As I've found with successive births, allowing the hormonal process to unfold optimally is crucial to this happening for some women, perhaps especially those (like me) who do not have that early cultural conditioning to be nurturing and desiring of children.


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## boscopup (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
A
(As an aside -- did your doctors not offer you sedation at least? Gas? When I had my wisdom teeth extracted, one was deeply infected which somehow interfered with the novocaine taking full effect. The doctor said that if I began to feel it was too painful, that he would like to put me "under".

I was wondering this too... In this day and age of "sedation dentistry" being advertised left and right on the radio, catering to people who are fearful of dental procedures, etc.... I have a hard time seeing why any dental surgeon would turn someone down for a procedure!

I had my wisdom teeth out at age 14 (15 years ago), and I am scared of needles, surgery, etc. They gave me a pill to put under my tongue on the car ride over. As I was sitting in the waiting room, the door started breathing, and the wall paper became 3-dimensional. Yes, I was tripping.







And I was very relaxed!







They called me back and sat me in the chair, and I had no fear because I was drugged! They put me under general anesthesia, and I woke up minus 3 impacted wisdom teeth! Wasn't bad at all. They sent me home with an rx for pain meds if I needed them, but I never did.

Now I am VERY afraid of surgery while awake. I've had surgery done on my big toes with a local anesthetic, and that was WAY worse than childbirth!!! I can still remember the pain very clearly - the pain of the anesthetic shot going in! It was horrible! But general anesthesia type surgery? Piece of cake. You don't feel a thing. You just wake up and it's over.







I've had wisdom teeth out and I've had jaw surgery - both general anesthesia, and neither one was a big deal. That "simple", quick procedure on my toes that I was able to walk home from - that was horrible, and I never want to go through that again. I'll happily take drug-free childbirth 10 times over than to get a local anesthetic surgery on my toes again. It was really that bad.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

If the OP is still reading... the reason *I* wanted to have a child has nothing to do with the reasons you might want to have a child. It's not something one can rationally justify, and if you truly feel no urge to be a parent, I sincerely hope that you won't. Children need and deserve to be wanted...

Since I am personally opposed to abortion, though, I do want to note that if you choose to carry your baby to term, I would happily adopt him or her. That's an open offer to anyone, just for the record. I don't want anyone believing that they are aborting a baby who would be unwanted - I want him or her.

dar


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
I am very serious about this, very serious, this is no joke. Would you please tell me why you would want to have a child? Here's my situation in a nutshell.

I am 45 years old and I think I am pregnant. I have been trying to get myself to the OB for two weeks and I just don't want to know. I don't like children, and have never liked children since the age of 12. I could never understand why anyone would want to be a mother.

I had a termination years ago, partly due to the fact that I didn't want a child and partially due to the fact that I can't handle labor. I can't handle pain--I have had two wisdom teeth impacted for 9 years, and I can't have them out in the office, due to the fact that I had such a severe emotional reaction to the impending surgery that the oral surgeon won't do it. He's afraid I will have a stroke or bleed excessively due to high blood pressure, crying, vomiting, racing heart, etc. I spent almost a year in a cast rather than have surgery on a shattered ankle because I was such a wreck the surgeon didn't want to have to operate. I mean, I can't handle pain of any kind, so labor has always been an absolutely out of the question situation.

I am now in the position where I am going to have to have another termination, which is fine with me, but the father is a great guy and I can't tell him about it. He has two kids, loves them, and will flip out. He agreed that we will not have a child, due to my age, but that was before this took place. He will want it, and I can't handle it. I would rather shoot myself quickly than be pregnant or go through labor. The whole thing makes me sick. I love him and I feel badly for him, though.

I was discussing my dilemna with a friend, and she made an excellent point: why do these people want to have children, be pregnant, deal with the problems, pee themselves for the rest of their lives, vomit for months on end, and then deal with labor? I will admit, that of all of my friends from college who have children--and it's not a majority of women, I will admit--not a single one would do it again. Not one. The ones who had a child didn't have a second.

Maybe there is something about this I don't understand. I never did understand it, but then again, with the first termination my then-husband didn't want it, either. I didn't think twice about this question. We divorced for reasons other than the termination.

Maybe you can help me understand why you would do this to your bodies and lives. I guess I missed something somewhere.

Good luck to all of you with your pregnancies!:


It's a perfectly reasonable question and one I wish more people would ask themselves before they get pregnant. For us, anyway, here are our reasons in no particular order:

*1. Babies are fascinating.*
Both my husband and I found babies fascinating--we were both interested in infant development and in playing with, reading to, and teaching children. Why? Well, speaking for myself, there's something compelling about a brand-new brain, a soul and a mind to whom the world is utterly new. To be the "tour guide" to this brave new world, to be the person who helps a brand-new person understand how the world works and what's in it, was a compelling idea for me.

*2. We knew we could offer a baby a reasonably good life.*
After many years of financial struggle, we were in a reasonably good place -- I had a good job with good health care, my DH could stay home and be a full-time parent, and we were both relatively young and our marriage was stable. We loved children and knew they'd be coming into a family with two parents who'd be crazy about them -- to say nothing of six grandparents who would also be crazy about them.

*3. We would have felt incomplete as a family without one.* Looking into the future as best as non-precognitive people can do, we knew we'd have a good marriage without kids, but one that to us seemed as if it would be void of -- well, _content_. Like there was nothing there except coffee, cigarettes, conversation, and the _New York Times_. That's not bad, but at least for us, it felt rather barren as a possibility. We didn't feel complete as a family. We also only have one, but that's not because we found the experience so dreadful we wouldn't do it again -- it's just that the minute we saw our daughter, it was like something "clicked." It felt like that satisfying moment when the last puzzle piece gets fitted in.

*4. I'm not personally freaked out by pee and vomit or other bodily exudes.*
I don't pee on myself, BTW, and I'm okay with pain. The physical issues with pregnancy weren't a major deterrent, although they were of concern. I did what I could to keep in shape and to eat healthily, and while I didn't get my old body back, I got back a reasonable facsimile of it. I am not one of those people who looked like a gorgeous, glowing Madonna -- more like a puffy, mushroom-nosed Janis Joplin-on-a-bender, so the notion of "I would love to see my glowing, growing, life-bearing body of life-bearing wonderfulness" wasn't really an enticement.

In short, if I could go back in time and do it all over again, not only would I do it, I would do it a million times over. A googol. Again and again. Forever.

The reasons I've listed for wanting to become pregnant and have a child in the first place are not the ones I would have listed if I could go back in time, because what I know now is infinitely more meaningful and profound than what I knew before.

Having a child has changed my soul in ways I can't begin to articulate, but I'll try: it has both humbled and enlarged me. It has humbled me into understanding that once you become a mother, you are no longer the most important person in your world. It has enlarged me for the same reason and given me a purpose outside myself. Having a child is the most astounding and profoundly frightening thing I've ever done, not because of the pain -- and yes, it hurt like hell, and no, I've not forgotten about it -- but because you realize the extent to which, as someone wiser than I observed, that being a parent means that for the rest of your life, your heart is walking around outside your body. I've reevaluated the person I am and have tried to be a better person, a kinder and more ethical person, because of her. So has my husband -- and I love him and honor him more now because of the man he's become as a father.

Hope that helps answer your question.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
Hmmm...it's good to know that you all had these great birth experiences, but I don't know anyone personally who has had anything remotely as wonderful as you all project. To a person, none of my friends from college who have a child would do it again. To A Person. They all had such a bad experience it wasn't worth it. One of them has a PTSD problem to this day and was suicidal afterwards. Another one has permanent sciatica, and they all have peed themselves. Hmmm..that kind of labor I can't handle, and frankly, I am not doing that to my body. I attended one labor in my lifetime and I was violently ill. It disgusted me, it really did.

As far as this primal stuff is concerned, to each her own and all, but I am not a granola-eating earth mother type. That's one of the reasons I think this gig is not for me. I have about as much belief in this primal woman business as I do the the Keebler elves.

I think maybe it's my lack of connection with the the caregiving and bonding stuff of little kids who don't reciprocate in a way I seem to understand, coupled with primal woman business that doesn't appeal to me, that makes it just not my gig.

Maybe I just don't get it. That's what I am starting to think. There must be a connection mechanism that isn't there for me. Hmmm...

Maybe that's so. I don't believe everyone should have a child. I think you'd need to look at your friends' reasons for getting pregnant and how they handled childrearing in the first year of their children's lives in order to answer this, but I tend to think childbearing has some of its worst results when people have children for bad reasons like these:

1. The checklist
"I've gone to college, I got married, we bought a house in the 'burbs and have an SUV. Check. Now off to make a baby and go shopping at Nordstrom's."

2. Someone to love me
"My father/mother didn't love me and my childhood sucked, but if I have a baby, they'll love me unconditionally."

3. "All my friends have kids."
'Nuff said.

4. "I love buying little baby things."
A baby is not a purchase or a reason to go shopping.

5. It won't make an impact on my life
"I can have a baby, go back to work, continue to have a spotless house and a perfect figure, and keep all my same friends. My baby will have to fit into my life, not the other way around."













































Maybe these are some of the reasons your friends had kids -- I don't know, because I don't know them, but I would venture to say that their reasons are crucial to understanding why they're not happy being parents.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Skrimpy*
A baby comes through you and not for you.

Oh, this is so true. Well-said.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
I am glad it is empowering for some, but I personally can't figure out why it would be empowering. I would imagine it is perspective. While it irritates some here when I supposedly harp on the negative birth experiences, there can be no doubt that a plethora of those experiences do exist, and are sadly occurring as I write. I guess it is just what you are willing to experience if you value the process of motherhood and believe it to be so altruistic and noble.

Look at it this way: I personally feel it is silly to climb mountains. Really...why bother? However, I understand when people speak of it as an ennobling experience because you've tested your physical ability to survive, your will to persist under a challenging and painful experience. Childbirth is like that too, only more so because it's not for yourself.

Quote:

As for the medical aspects of labor, my mother is in medicine, and I don't share the opinion that MD's are inherently evil-doers. I realize there is a significant percentage of mothers who take a different view. Again, beliefs and values.
I doubt many MDs are inherently evildoers, but I do believe that they perceive pregnancy as pathology, and that paradigm shapes the way in which they treat the pregnant woman in gestation and delivery -- and not always for the better. If eating were treated as if it were a pathology that constantly needed to be monitored and managed, it would be a dreadful experience. Really, imagine this conversation:

"You do realize it's RISKY to eat steak: according to the most recent _Journal of American Gastrology_'s longitudinal studies, you have a 16% chance of choking at every bite. Here, let me insert a stomach feeding tube in order to bypass the esophagus, because in truth, our esophaguses aren't very efficient deliverers of food to the stomach. Our food has gotten too big for our throats. In this day and age, it's a good thing we have doctor-managed dinners."


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## 13moons (Aug 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
"You do realize it's RISKY to eat steak: according to the most recent _Journal of American Gastrology_'s longitudinal studies, you have a 16% chance of choking at every bite. Here, let me insert a stomach feeding tube in order to bypass the esophagus, because in truth, our esophaguses aren't very efficient deliverers of food to the stomach. Our food has gotten too big for our throats. In this day and age, it's a good thing we have doctor-managed dinners."









I love this analogy! And I completely agree with the point you are making.


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## grace's voice (May 12, 2005)

I'm surprised no one has asked so far... at any point in your life have you endured any kind of abuse? ... especially as a child? Often, vicitms of abuse react to pain the way you described and people who were abused as children tent to project their perception of themselves into all the children they see... I know, I did. I was sexually abused and I NEVER EVER wanted a daughter. I got sick to my stomach every time I saw a little girl. I was seeing my own shame in them. I knew there was nothing I could do to ever protect a daughter from the same thing happening to her. I was molested in public places, no one noticed, so how could I keep her safe? Well, several months after I realized what my issues were I got pregnant unexpectedly, with a girl. She has SAVED me! I still worry about her constantly, I have nightmares that men do things to her and I wake up crying in the night. However, so much of me has healed through witnessing her purity. She is the love of my life. (And I didn't want/feel ready to be a mother when I got pregnant.)
Another thing, how is your relationship with your own mother? This is another area I've had many issues with, and commonly can cause problems with the way women view their own ability/desire to become a mother. My mother was not a mother. I didn't know what mothering even looked like. I've had to figure that out on my own, and I must say I'm very proud of how my daughter is turning out. She's an absolute angel.
Sometimes we have psycological hang ups that we're not aware of that can affect us in many ways, it is a possiblity that that is what's going on with you. When we work through those issues we see things in a whole new light. That doesn't mean there's a mother in you just waiting to pop out, that's not what I'm saying. Just that its possible that this hostility (I may be misinterrpreting, but that's how its coming across) may be coming from a place inside of you that needs healing.
I, too, am not okay with abortion under any cirumstance. However, I don't recommend that anyone attempt to raise a child when they are so opposed to it. That is not fair to the child, I have been that child!
As others have said, birth IS emopwering, children teach us more than we could ever teach them, I have never vomitted or peed myself. The only negitive births stories I've heard are from women who have up their rights to doctors. I was raised being told that birth is the most horrible, painful thing anyone can ever endure. My mother told me constantly that, even with drugs, I could never handle it. I have a VERY low tolerance for pain. If I feel even the slightest discomfort I have a panic attack. But, I had a beautiful, unmedicated homebirth and will have another one any time now (maybe today!).
I think that regaurdless of what choice you make its worth some serious soul searching to find out where this agression is coming from. Its fine to feel that way, its fine to not want to be a mother... but you owe it to yourself to explore wether or not there may be something YOU are in need of.

In response to why would anyone want to be a mother, this is one of my favorite quotes and totally expresses how motherhood is for me:
Making the decision to have a baby - it's momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body. ~Elizabeth Stone

And one for "why would I chose to 'do this' to my body":
The beauty of my body is not measured by the size of the clothes it can fit into, but by the stories that it tells. I have a belly and hips that say, "We grew a child in here," and breasts that say, "We nourished life." My hands, with bitten nails and a writer's callus, say, "We create amazing things."
~Sarah, from I Am Beautiful: A Celebration of Women in Their Own Words

Anything I've ever done that ultimately was worthwhile&#8230;initially scared me to death.
~Betty Bender

You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

Birthing is the most profound initiation to spirituality a woman can have. ~Robin Lim

We are made to do this work and its not easy...I would say that pain is part of the glory, or the tremendous mystery of life. And that if anything, it's a kind of privilege to stand so close to such an incredible miracle. ~Simone in Klasson 2001

Just as a woman's heart knows how and when to pump, her lungs to inhale, and her hand to pull back from fire, so she knows when and how to give birth. ~Virginia Di Orio

Only with trust, faith, and support can the woman allow the birth experience to enlighten and empower her. ~Claudia Lowe

Women's bodies have their own wisdom, and a system of birth refined over 100,000 generations is not so easily overpowered. ~Sarah Buckley

Rain, after all is only rain; it is not bad weather. So also, pain is only pain; unless we resist it, then it becomes torment. ~I Ching

We have a secret in our culture, and it's not that birth is painful. It's that women are strong.
~Laura Stavoe Harm

The power and intensity of your contractions cannot be stronger than you, because it is you.
~Unknown

If I had my life to live over, instead of wishing away nine months of pregnancy, I'd have cherished every moment and realized that the wonderment growing inside me was the only chance in life to assist God in a miracle. ~Irma Bombeck

In the sheltered simplicity of the first days after a baby is born, one sees again the magical closed circle, the miraculous sense of two people existing only for each other, the tranquil sky reflected on the face of the mother nursing her child. ~Anne Morrow Lindbergh

Natural childbirth has evolved to suit the species, and if mankind chooses to ignore her advice and interfere with her workings we must not complain about the consequences. We have only ourselves to blame. ~Margaret Jowitt

~Most people are so consumed by fear about birth they have no idea how magical it can actually be. Take away the drugs and machinery, take away the watchful concerned eyes, take away the fear, and a whole new world opens up to us. Many women encounter their own creative power for the first time. ~Laura Shanley


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

I agree with Holly's question above, RE abuse, it was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read your initial post.

I've only skimmed this thread, but I wanted to extend feelings of love and support to you. If you are genuinely asking these questions, then I imagine that you are suffering and that is really hard.

My pregnancy with dd was horrible, and labor and birth were pretty rough, too. I was sick and swollen like a balloon the entire time and was scared out of my mind and consequently in horrible pain and fear throughout my labor. The labor and delivery I could have done more about, it was largely my fault although I didn't understand that at the time. I do pee myself, almost daily, haven't had a good night's sleep in more than a year, and find myself frequently desparing about how difficult my life is now.

And it's totally worth it. Gestating, bearing, and mothering are unlike anything I could have ever imagined. I am open to a love that I never before knew existed. I know that I am doing the single most important thing that I will ever do--caring for my children. I don't have time to write more, but I wanted you to know that, if you are open to it, there is nothing on earth like being a mom. You get to choose how it goes, how you handle your pregnancy, what your birth is like, what your motherhood is like. Your friends, although they may not realize it, have mad a choice to be miserable. Yours can be different, if you want it to be.

Good luck in your decision and soul-searching.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

At age 45, maybe you should look into more permanant ways to prevent pregnancy. I mean, it's hardly likely that you don't know your own mind by now and if some incredible incidence does happen to make you want children--you can always adopt.


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## AnditheBee (Oct 3, 2003)

I think I am in the minority here, in that I would have been a happy and fulfilled person if I had never had children. However, after much thought and discussion, we did decide to have them, and I regret nothing (even though, yes, my body will not be the same--though having had only surgical births, I have no pee issues...







). The fact is, I'm not a "kid person" but I love _my_ kids and would do anything for them without thinking twice about it. But I have no issues with or judgement for people who don't want kids, nor do I think their lives will never be complete without parenthood. I would hope those folks don't judge me and my decisions, either.

The way I see it, the pregnancy and birth are such a tiny part of what motherhood is...granted, birth is a huge transformative experience for most women, no matter how you do it, for better or worse, but "motherhood" is the lifelong commitment. It's the hard part, if you ask me! The hardest job, the one with the least pay and the least thanks...and probably the most important on earth.

That isn't to downplay the power of birth--it's transformative even to women who have those infamous "managed hospital births," women who really don't think of birth even remotely as transformative...they're still changed by it.

As for primal...oh, yeah. Otherwise, how could pre-industrial humans have successfully had babies for all those years? We are high-order animals, perhaps more than that on a spiritual level, but basically...we're mammals. All mammals know primally how to birth, and so do we. It's basic biology. Maybe not everyone connects to that idea consciously, but given the right environment, many women connect with that birth instinct and discover innate knowledge they never suspected.

And empowering--it seems natural burth empowers women because they do it themselves; it's not a process that they simply show up for. Choosing your place of birth, your comfort items, behaviors, procedures (if any) and support personnel, choosing your position, and in some cases catching your own baby...sounds pretty empowering to me. Even a hospital birth (surgical or otherwise) can be empowering in some circumstances.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Pregnancy and birth are more than a physical happening. It is much greater than some imagined list of horrible symptoms. I can say this - while I have experienced none of the self urination and non-stop vomiting I would pee myself everyday for the rest of my life to have the opportunity to share my life with my children. I would vomit for them gladly because they are not "dealing with problems", they're not the products of gestational constipation but good, bright, curious people. As were we all.

I wonder why the women who bore the children in the original posters family - mother, grandmothers and so on - I wonder why the "did this to their bodies and their lives". I hope the original poster can see some value in her own life, in her contribution and those of her family, of anyone who has ever been born.

With that said, I am very pro-choice and I don't believe a woman who does not wish to have children or a particular child do so regardless of what the partner feels. I hope only that the original poster, if her choice is abortion, goes ahead with it quickly. I will never understand what it means to be in her position for many reasons but by the time I am 45 I will have been a mother for more than half of my life. It is what I know and most beautiful thing. I wish her only the best, no judgements.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Wow, everybody have written such beautiful responses, perhaps I could add my own.

I did not want to get pregnant either. I was terrified of the thought of labor, and the thought of having this tiny thing totally dependant on me. Whenever I would show symptoms of pregnancy, I would go through denial, because I so badly did not want to know if I was.

At the insistance of my husband (after mood swings he could barely handle, i.e. i broke up his credit card, not letting anything come within 3 feet of my breasts because they were so sore, and an impending period that never came) who went out and bought a pregnancy test for me, I took it just to humor him. I was so irritated by the notion that he could even think I was pregnant.

When I saw those 2 little lines, I had a panic attack. I could not breath, it had the be the worst moment of my life. I ran to my husband, who at my hollering thought somebody had broken into the house and was trying to attack me or something. I was shaking all over and crying. I have never felt like that before. He had to reassure me that everything was going to be alright.

Then the sickness came. I was throwing up constantly. It was horrible. Everyone assured me that it would only be for the first few months, and then it would get better. It didn't. I threw up off an on during my entire pregnancy.

I had incredible intense cravings. Towards the end of my pregnancy, I developed high sugar, and could not even act on my intense cravings. I was sick, big, hungry, i wanted CHOCOLATE and couldn't have it. I had heartburn. I was miserable. I was having premature contractions whenever I stood up to long, that would leave me doubled over. I could not get comfortable during sleeping, and I could not handle the smell of anything. Since my sugar was high, I could never get enough to drink. I could not have my orange juice that I craved (too many carbs, sent my sugar through the roof) and I could not have my caffeine because my baby would be turning constant summersalts in my belly.

I was so disconnected with my baby. I wanted it to all be over with. I was just pretty much going through the motions of pregnancy. I did not even buy very much for him during pregnancy because I was so disconnected. It did not seem real to me.

During labor in the hospital, I felt so subdued. The waves of pain would come over me, and I just did feel like I wanted to die. I was afraid of pain, and ended up getting an epidural because I was so afraid and so nervous that i was not dialating. I would dialate at home, and as soon as I got to the hospital with my midwife, I would stop. Birthing at home was not an option for me at the time.

I was sleepy when they gave me my epidural, I didn't care. They told me they could see the head, I didn't care. They put a mirror up so I could see. I watched the head come more and more. And then all of a sudden, they told me to stop pushing, then they told told me to take his shoulders and pull him out.

One look at that little pug face, and I was crying tears of joy. One look at him, and I realized that I would go through all of it all over again.

Feeling him latch onto my breast. Seeing him nestled in my husband's arms, seeing his first smile. Seeing him take his first wobbly steps.

Parenting comes so natural to me.

And after all of that, know what? when my monkey turns 5, we will be starting on number 2.


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## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

I want to thank you women for the beautiful, beautiful words that you have written here. I really hope the OP comes back to read them. I feel so sorry for you OP. Babies are SO wonderful.
Please, please don't abort your baby. I will adopt it for you. Your child deserves to live. It doesn't need to die just because you don't want it. I want it & I know of lots of people who do.
Think of your SO. How is it fair to him to not even tell him about his child?
There is an organization called Rachel's Vineyard (rachelsvineyard.org) that offers healing retreats after abortions.

*"Rachel's Vineyard is a safe place to renew, rebuild and redeem hearts broken by abortion. Weekend retreats offer you a supportive, confidential and non-judgmental environment where women and men can express, release and reconcile painful post-abortive emotions to begin the process of restoration, renewal and healing.

Rachel's Vineyard can help you find your inner voice. It can help you experience God's love and compassion on a profound level. It creates a place where men and women can share, often for the first time, their deepest feelings about abortion. You are allowed to dismantle troubling secrets in an environment of emotional and spiritual safety..'*

Please consider contacting them as you are probably enduring trauma from your first abortion whether you know it or not. It is probably effecting how you feel about this baby.

Please don't think I am judging you. I would just like to help you.

Thank you again for the beautiful affirmations about motherhood.


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## doula and mom (Nov 28, 2005)

:

Everyone has said such eloquent things, I'm not sure I have much to add... But I'll try









My twins were a bit of a surprise pregnancy. And although I'm pretty left-wing, I couldn't personally have an abortion, just couldn't do it. Never thought of it.

I was a little scared -- I'd never been around babies, wasn't sure I liked babies, and hated how everyone coo'ed and talked weirdly to babies, ya know? I didn't want to talk like that to MY kids.









But from the moment I learned of my pregnancy, I felt like a mother. And it was just something I felt and wanted, deeply.

I think it's a bit strange that ALL your college friends had bad experiences with pregnancy/labor/delivery to the point where they all had only children. How many women are you talking about? 2 or 3 is not a majority of humanity.

I puked through my first trimester with my twins, and another pregnancy 2 years later, I have never peed myself (the women I know who do that had episiotomies; I didn't), and the pain of labor sucked but it was 10 hours out of my 27 years, so it's barely a blip on the radar. I look forward to having more.

I think it's good to realize that being a mother just isn't for you. I'd suggest you get your tubes tied or do some other type of permanent birth control.


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## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

I received your private messages in my email account. As you suggested, I did review all the postings. I don't frequent forums of this nature--I'm not a big internet user--so I am not familiar with troll. Nevertheless, thank you for both your private and posted comments. I appreciate your insight.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

i was not a huge oh i want to be a mother myself.... i am glad i had kids tho.
it sometimes makes my life suck- but the payoffs are worth it to me.
i do not think you will pee yourself the rest of your life btw.
sometimes things are placed in front of us for a reason.
at 45 i do not know what i would do....
do you realy never want to be called mother?

wow. mothering- good mothering takes maturity. lots of times it comes after the baby.
would adoption be an option for you? how far along are you?
good luck to you.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emilie*
i do not think you will pee yourself the rest of your life btw.

Yes, that is a point worth talking about.

Pregnancy. It won't last the rest of your life. Birth, however painful and the pushing, however difficult, will also not last forever. It will be over almost before you turn around and hop a stick.

If the op, does indeed proceed with pregnancy and decide to have and keep the child, even if she has the worst most miserable pregnancy possible, or even an emergency c-section, will come to look with fondness, and even miss her pregnancy. She may possibly miss the "push-of-war" moments she had while daydreaming lazily, or talking on the phone, etc, and pushing her baby's little unknown body parts through her tummy, as her fetus pushes back. She may miss the days where she lied awake in bed, unable to sleep, perhaps because of pregnancy gas, or other (we all know what that's like!














), while carressing her new small bulge in her tummy, feeling the little light taps and light brushes as her tiny itty bitty fetus tumbles and summer-salts underneath her hand.

She may possibly come to miss how beautifully womanly and feminine, and powerful she felt and looked as she looks had her naked body swollen with child in the mirror right after a shower. She may miss the challenge of trying to dress her pregnant body. She may miss the respect she recieves from strangers trying to accomodate her by holding the door, etc, in malls and stores.

Even months/years after birth, she may miss the power and rush of adrenaline she felt the moment she delivered her child. The anticipation, the excitement. I know she would miss the feeling of her newborn, wet with afterbirth, is placed on her body, and the first time she looks into it's little face.

These are things to be cherished, things that only last for a few seconds in the least, to a few moments, to a few months at most. Then it's over. All too soon, your child will be an adult. And all of these "horrible" anticipations about pregnancy and birth will be a thing of a long past memory.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

This is you trying to understand?

Could have fooled me.

Get the abortion, do what you wish. Only you know what's best for you. But don't come here comparing our lifestyle to that of the Keebler freaking Elves.







:

-Kelly (who didn't piss herself, vomit once--let alone for months on end--or _deal_ with labor)


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

there's no good reason for having a baby besides wanting to and knowing you have love to give to it. if you aren't a loving or caring person, forget it. I'm not saying you're not, I don't know you.

most people have two or more children based on national averages, and worldwide it's even more, so that tells you your friends are in the minority. I suspect they aren't very good parents, and aren't good examples of people to ask about parenting. just because what they say is true *for them* doesn't make it true for me, or you, or the majority of parents. far from it. sure, not everything is rosy and perfect and an episode of leave it to beaver. but labor, and pregnancy, are normal, natural functions of a female body, and while parts of it are uncomfortable and even painful, it's worth it to someone who actually wants a kid.

do you remember being a child? (I'm not being sarcastic. some people either have very fuzzy memories of childhood or have blocked it out because it was traumatic) I suspect people who don't understand the reason for having a child either had a bad childhood, dysfunctional relationship to one or more parents, and/or have not spent any substantial amount of time around children or infants. The opportunity to actually raise a human being, contributing to their personality, is a huge responsibility and honor in my opinion.

another draw for most people is having a little family, going to the beach, cookouts, birthday parties, sharing holidays and special events together. most people find it fun to watch their kids play and help teach them how to do things, like ride bikes, swim, read, etc. as a parent you get a feeling of accomplishment when you have put time and work into your child and get a reward such as the above. if those things aren't appealing, then having a kid isn't a good idea.

you're right; it is about perspective. if your perspective is that having kids is something that's brainwashed into people, that they do without reason, that they don't truly enjoy and are lying when they say they do OR are delusional about it, that pregnancy and childbirth are gross and not worth the pain, then okay, you're entitled to that belief- please don't bring a human into the world who has to bear the burden of trying to prove to you that they are good enough to have been worth it.

but consider that all animals reproduce, and that the human animal is special above and beyond any other on this planet, and that billions of people who have chosen to have more than one child, who love their children more that life itself, who have dealt with the pain and the inconveniences and still want more kids, probably aren't wrong. having a child should be the greatest joy of a parent's life. when it's not, it's the saddest thing in the world. I knew that when I was a child, and I know that now that I'm a mother.

and I've never peed myself, either. swear to God.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
Yes, that is a point worth talking about.

Pregnancy. It won't last the rest of your life. Birth, however painful and the pushing, however difficult, will also not last forever. It will be over almost before you turn around and hop a stick.

If the op, does indeed proceed with pregnancy and decide to have and keep the child, even if she has the worst most miserable pregnancy possible, or even an emergency c-section, will come to look with fondness, and even miss her pregnancy. She may possibly miss the "push-of-war" moments she had while daydreaming lazily, or talking on the phone, etc, and pushing her baby's little unknown body parts through her tummy, as her fetus pushes back. She may miss the days where she lied awake in bed, unable to sleep, perhaps because of pregnancy gas, or other (we all know what that's like!














), while carressing her new small bulge in her tummy, feeling the little light taps and light brushes as her tiny itty bitty fetus tumbles and summer-salts underneath her hand.

She may possibly come to miss how beautifully womanly and feminine, and powerful she felt and looked as she looks had her naked body swollen with child in the mirror right after a shower. She may miss the challenge of trying to dress her pregnant body. She may miss the respect she recieves from strangers trying to accomodate her by holding the door, etc, in malls and stores.

Even months/years after birth, she may miss the power and rush of adrenaline she felt the moment she delivered her child. The anticipation, the excitement. I know she would miss the feeling of her newborn, wet with afterbirth, is placed on her body, and the first time she looks into it's little face.

These are things to be cherished, things that only last for a few seconds in the least, to a few moments, to a few months at most. Then it's over. All too soon, your child will be an adult. And all of these "horrible" anticipations about pregnancy and birth will be a thing of a long past memory.


Ahhhh man!! Now I wanna e pregnant again!!!! That was beautiful and so very very true!!


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## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

With the exception of Kelly and the troll person, this has been a very useful forum. Much thought has been generated, and I am printing it off to take to talk over with a very supportive and non-judgemental friend. I have to figure out what to do soon, so your perspectives are of use. Yes, it clearly is about perspective.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

im sure your mother didn't think the way you do.

i too never thought of having children when i was younger...it was never my goal in life. but now i realize that its the best thing in life i have done, and thats after several college degrees and a professional career. nothing ranks the same as my children do and the thought of not having them is devastating. of course, prior to their birth, i never thought that without them i would be less than a woman (i was told when i was 17 that i would never have children).

having said all this, if you dont want children but are pregnant, the best thing you can do for a the child is to give it up for adoption. you can terminate it if you want, but it woudl be nice to at least give it life and allow it to make its own way in the world. im not anti-choice, but you seem to be in a position where that would be possible. and i don't think its right to terminate simply out of convenience...its such a waste of life.

good luck to you.


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## AmyAngel (Dec 3, 2004)

I am glad you are getting benefits of the answers you've gotten here, and hope that you make the decision that is right for you, and brings you peace.

I personally am single, and desperately want to be a mother. I never liked kids or babies much until I started working daycare to earn money during college. There's nothing quite like seeing a little one's face light up when you come into the room, or rocking a not-quite-asleep baby as they gaze drowsily into your face, sharing something you enjoy with someone brand-new who thinks everything you do is amazing, teaching someone something new, or knowing that years down the road you had a hand in shaping this wonderful person. The absolute TRUST that children give - it's both awe inspiring and a huge responsibility. I look forward to pregnancy, feeling the first movements of a new little creature, wondering what he or she will look like and what kind of personality he or she will have. I want to see how my body changes. I look forward to labor - I expect it will hurt, and challenge me tremendously, but it will me a chance for me, plain old ME, to participate in a miracle.

I look forward to loving this little person more than I knew I ever could. I know there will be bad days, inconveniences, pain, messes, times I'll wish I could just walk out the door, but I know that in the end, it will all be worth it. I look forward to being a mother, and a grandmother, and knowing that the things I did in creating and raising this child will carry on and on.

I also have other, more frivolous reasons - to buy cute kid clothes, take my child to Walt Disney World, share favorite books from my childhood, give my child experiences I never got to have.

If your friends experiences were the norm, no one would ever have more than one child. That is obviously not the case!

And I don't know anyone who's ever peed themselves forever because of pregnancy. My mom has some bladder control issues apparently related to menopause, but not pregnancy (and she had 3 kids, all by C though).


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## bradleybirth2mom (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
Hmmm...it's good to know that you all had these great birth experiences, but I don't know anyone personally who has had anything remotely as wonderful as you all project. To a person, none of my friends from college who have a child would do it again. To A Person. They all had such a bad experience it wasn't worth it. One of them has a PTSD problem to this day and was suicidal afterwards. Another one has permanent sciatica, and they all have peed themselves. Hmmm..that kind of labor I can't handle, and frankly, I am not doing that to my body. I attended one labor in my lifetime and I was violently ill. It disgusted me, it really did.

As far as this primal stuff is concerned, to each her own and all, but I am not a granola-eating earth mother type. That's one of the reasons I think this gig is not for me. I have about as much belief in this primal woman business as I do the the Keebler elves.

I think maybe it's my lack of connection with the the caregiving and bonding stuff of little kids who don't reciprocate in a way I seem to understand, coupled with primal woman business that doesn't appeal to me, that makes it just not my gig.

Maybe I just don't get it. That's what I am starting to think. There must be a connection mechanism that isn't there for me. Hmmm...

Generally, when mothers are asked about their birth experiences, you will observe that those who birth naturally (without drugs or medical interventions or procedures, whether in the hospital, at home or at a birthing center) admit theirs was a positive one while many women who had a drugged or surgical hospital birth say that it was devastating. This is because hospitals have come to use intervention to make more money instead of only when they are needed. I have done some research on this and come to know the following, which may surprise you:

Only 5% of women need C-sections, according to research. The current going rate for them in America is 1 out of 3 women. The C-section presents a cascade of problems for mothers and babies, many of them not evident until after birth.

Effects on epidurals---drugs taken for only a few hours of pain relief during labor and administered through the spinal cord---can result in the following:

Prolonged spinal headache for days following delivery
Permanent numbness from the waist down or partial numbness in one leg or the other
1 out of 5 women do not experience pain relief from the drug
The epidural never completely eliminates the pain---it is useful sometimes in mothers without the ability to relax and work with their labor.

I could go on, but I think at this point, I will say that you must realize that any choice you make now you will feel for the rest of your life. If you terminate your pregnancy, you may have feelings of loss and regret that will plague you for the rest of your life. In my experience with birth using the Bradley method, even though it lasted 48 hours and it was arduous, I would do it again simply for the incomprehensible joy of seeing my new baby's face and loving him. There is nothing like the love you experience for your own child after birth.
Also, abortion can cause life-threatening effects on the mother, including hemorrhage and hysterectomy---it sometimes results in death. It is always excruciatingly painful, and it is not the type of pain you can manage, unlike childbirth pain, which is a tightening of the uterus that comes on gradually and can be managed without drugs.
I feel you owe it to the young one living in you to give him or her a chance to see the world. Right now, he likely has fingernails, eyelashes and toenails and may just be starting to suck his thumb. He would certainly feel the pain of having his limbs ripped apart from a suction abortion or the burn of acid from a chemical abortion. Go through birth and, if after seeing him, you decide it will be too much for you, give him up for adoption. Life is precious, even at such a young age. Good luck to you and check out www.bradleybirth.com for birthing method classes and get the book Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way by Susan McCutcheon---this method has a 90% return rate for drug-free labors.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Hello. I am yet another woman who did not vomit or pee herself during or after pregnancy.

But mostly, this is why I'm responding. Are you asking just as a general question, to pass the time? Or is there a small part of you somewhere that might, just maybe, want to see the love you have for this man reflected in a child? You obviously care about him enough to worry that he'll be upset when you abort his and your child. Perhaps you should think about this a little more deeply.

I had no pain during childbirth. I used hypnobirthing, had an active birth, and surrounded myself, on purpose, with women who had wonderful birth experiences. Yes, my circle of friends changed...but is change ALWAYS a bad thing? I don't think so. It's just change. The world is changing constantly, and that's how the world goes.

If you're interested in educating yourself, many of us could suggest a plethora of wonderful books to read. And one of the pp's is right. It's not that the women on this board hate doctors. There are actually a couple of really wonderful docs who frequent this board. The FACT is that when a woman finds a practitioner who follows evidence based medicine, and this is mostly, *but not always* a midwife, they not only have a better experience emotionally and physically, but it is generally a safer birth for both mother and baby. The correlation here is causitive. OB's are surgeons trained in the science of the things that go WRONG with birth and how to fix those problems. They are not trained in normal and healthy pregnancy and birth, and that they should be left alone, to develop how the mom's body and the baby will it to happen. This really is scientific fact. If you're interested, again, there will be plenty of people, including myself, willing to help you find the information for yourself.

So, really, birth _could_ be empowering for you, if you chose the right attendant, educated yourself about what was going to happen to you, your baby, and your body (and not the procedures, but the actual physiology) during labor and birth. And I highly suggest that, if you choose not to abort this little miracle (and with faithfully following birth control, that's basically what this child is), you find a doula to attend you as well as a midwife, during your birth. A doula in attendance makes it significantly more likely that you will come through birth without negative effects...she makes it less likely that you'll need forceps, episiotomy, narcotics (which make it harder for you to deal with what's happening in labor), epidural (which has a HOST of negative side effects that are really never told to you before you get it...and those side effects are a slippery slope that can send you down into a nightmare). She makes it significantly less likely that you'll suffer from post partum depression and/or ptsd. She makes it significantly more likely that you'll bond well with your newborn child and that you will breastfeed successfully if that's what you choose to do. There are definately ways that you can choose to make your birth experience better than those of your friends who have children have had. It is only in the knowing that we are able to improve our lot...they may simply not have known better. It is the birth culture in the United States that causes so many horrific birth experiences (and I've heard some doozies, I'm a doula...most of my clients seek me for second births because the first ones were so awful), NOT the *nature* of birth!

I will repeat that I experienced no pain during my childbirth. I have had both impacted wisdom teeth and a shattered ankle, and I would choose an educated and calmly attended childbirth in a millisecond over the other two choices without a second thought.

Why do I want children? I was a nanny before I had my own. I worked for eighteen years for women who wanted the status that children brought them, but didn't want the responsiblility of caring for them. I say this without meaning to insult anybody, I actually had several of the mothers mention this to me. They were all rich and established, and didn't need children to fulfill them. I certainly didn't need the "experience" of childrearing to fulfill me. I'd raised several children sucessfully (on to wonderful colleges...ivy league, even, and kind, good people) by the time I had my own. I do, however gain such insight in watching a child, of any age, learn something new. I am thankful for the chance to have a pair of arms that belong to a child that I grew _within my own body...what a miracle_, and nourished after thier birth with the milk from my own body, wrap around my neck for a snuggle. I rejoiced the first time I heard both of my children say that they loved me. Not becased I am loved, but because they have been taught the capacity to love...what an amazing thing!

Childbearing and childrearing really is a thing that goes beyond the self. Maybe this is the universe's way of telling you that it's time to grow beyond yourself? To challenge yourself to grow in a way that you never thought possible? Not every woman who has a child has to be either crunchy or absent from the child's life. I also worked for a couple of families that HAD to have both parents working. The moms loved the children but couldn't be with them during the day. They made the most of the time they had in the evenings and during the weekends, and made sure that they had a quality, well educated, caregiver, who they knew would bond with and give top notch care to their children.

You could also carry the child, and have it adopted. Yes, I know, a selfless act. But as much as you may not want the child, there are thousands of couples waiting for the phone to ring to tell them that they are going to be adoptive parents! What a miracle that would be. You could save the life of your child and make the yearnings and dreams of a couple come true, too. Just a thought. A long shot, I know. Coming from somebody who donated bone marrow to a man who had less than a 5% chance of survival, though, I somewhat understand the perspective. I underwent surgery and six weeks of painful recouperation so that a man could have a waaayyyy long-shot at survival. Know what? He lived. Sometimes, things happen for a reason.

Maybe this happened for a reason. Whatever that reason may be, whether it's to grow beyond yourself, or that the child is meant to be a scientist who discovers the cure for Lou Gherig's disease, or that a couple who desperately wants to see their love for one another reflected in the life of a child can actually see this happen...maybe there's a reason. And you *can* grow beyond the _fear_ into reality. Reality is never as bad as what you've imagined it to be!

Blessings in your decision, whatever it may be.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i'm not sure how to respond. i've thought about it for a while, and i guess it just boils down to some sort of faith for me. it must, because i can't *quite* put my finger on why it's so deeply beautiful for me to look at my children.

it's not because i am responsible for helping to guide them safely through their destinies

it's not because they look like a combination of myself and my husband

it's not because i get to re-experience the small joys in life through their eyes

it's not because there is nothing like a hug from a little child

it's not because they love me fiercely and without hesitation

it's not because i love them fiercely and without hesitation

it's not because i'm ensuring that my "legacy" will live on

it's not because of any of that. they're all true, but it hardly seems even respectful to the sacredness of the bond i have with my children to make a list like that. as a mother, i just plain old can't tell you *why* it's the most amazing thing i've ever done or will ever do. because it encompasses me. it's like asking why there's air. why there is night. and, i suppose, why there is God. does it help me to know *why* i had kids? not really. and i'm sorry that i can't really explain it to you, because i do believe that you want to know. i believe that you want to be struck with the same fierce passion for your potential fetus that we've had for ours. maybe you won't, but believe me if you do - it'll just happen. it will likely hit you suddenly and...well...fiercely.

it is a valid choice to have no children, of course. but i think that the answers you're looking for cannot really come from any of us. nor can they come from the friends you speak of who have regrets. they have to come from you.

but you asked here...so i'm trying to offer you some semblance of an answer, and i know that i'm rambling. i suppose i thought that something brilliant would hit me mid-post and just leave you astounded and hugging your belly. because i know how amazing motherhood is and i know how deeply it has changed me. but maybe you don't want to be changed. change is scary. and it isn't always pretty. and pain sucks. but sometimes, pain is worth it.

i don't know if you are a spiritual person or if you believe in God. so maybe what i'm about to say will fall on you like a dead weight. but nonetheless, i suppose i think that one of the millions of reasons that i wanted to be a mother was so that for one instant, i could be God's assistant in the creation of a life. i know you don't believe in the primal 'mumbo jumbo', and of course that's your right. but it is something that i experienced and it knocked me to my knees. where there was once one life, then there were two. two human souls occupied the same space. i suddenly had two hearts beating within me...and i guess i just don't think that any list of "reasons" could ever adequately express what it is to be a mother. to bear a child.

i wish you peace with your decision. for the sake of the life that might be stirring within your womb, i pray that you'll find a spark of longing to bring that life to the world. and if you do, you'll have an entire community here to offer support.


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

Why did I want children? I never had any particular desire for children early on, but as I really approached that childbearing time, I wanted them in the theoretical because of the value I place on family. My parents, grandparents, sister, cousins, aunts, uncles, neices... they're just central to what I think is important in life. Being surrounded by you family - what a beautiful and aggravating thing. The history, the commonality, the closesness, the suuport, marking all life's major milestones with each other. I value it. And I guess having kids is all part of having and perpetuating family.
Now, that's all in the theoretical. In the pratical, I had a hard time coming to grips with actually having to be responsible for, and the primary caretaker of, a small, slimy, incomprehensible creature. That cries. And stays that way for an inconcievably long time. And then potentially only gets more annoying. The idea of really having to grow up and place someone else's immediate needs above my own was just scary, ha. My husband very much wanted one. I really felt we should just get a new puppy. Well, I inadvertantly became pregnant, and spent the pregnancy pretty ambivalently hoping it would just turn out to be that puppy... sorta looked like one on that ultrasound anway. I'm not hippie, or crunchy, or in tune with mother earth... but unexpectedly birth *was* empowering. And my biggest fear during pregnancy was that I just wasn't going to find a way to learn to love the baby, but it turned out I loved her beyond reckoning at first sight. Which I flatly didn't believe in, lol. I love my daughter more than I thought it was possible to love another human being. It's terrifying, awesome and glorious all at once. I'm pregnant with a second now, which I felt pretty confident I wanted, but now that I'm pregnant, I'm ambivalent all over again. Only with more faith it'll all turn out well =)
Honestly, a year in a cast sounds worse than 9 months of pregnancy, and shattering an ankle is worse that labor and childbirth, and you clearly handled that. It's okay to just not want children. It's a bigger issue to live a life ruled by irrational fears. So for you, it sounds like the real conflict you're having is about the man you're with, and your fear of losing him over a child you just don't want. And maybe this is the sort of issue you do lose him over. But he has a right to know that this is who you are and what you can and cannot handle. The real you, as it were, for better or worse. I'd really discuss it with him. Maybe he's done with children, and isn't really invested in this one. Or maybe he's so interested he'd want to have it, and be willing to raise the baby without you. However things go, my best wishes to you =)

And oh yeah.. never peed myself. It's old age that does that to so many women, rarely childbirth - so you can look forward to that eventuality right along with the breeders


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## cathicog (May 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*

This is the right board for me, although my presence here might make some others quite uncomfortable. Chin up, I will be gone soon, and then you can all say good riddance!









I wouldn't say that...but I would ask this- why should the child be punished because of your "mistake"....I am 50 and my husband of 4 years and I are trying to conceive. No artificial ingredients. If I can maintain a pg past 3 months, well and good, if not, well, then it wasn't to be. But I would not terminate, just because the child was inconvenient, which in your case seems to be the rationale. That is sad. Labor isn't that bad. Especially if you have the baby at home. Then you could release the baby to someone who wanted a child, and be done with it....you hope. Your body will always know you carried a child, for however many weeks it was there inside







... I hope you let the baby live, and let someone who welcomes children raise him/her.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I have nothing else to add except I only vomited once during pregnancy and I'm pretty sure it was food poisining, not baby related (ate some nasty ravioli and it effected dh too) and only peed myself before baby (some jokes just really make me laugh...)


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Thinking of you....


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## amygoforth (Jun 21, 2005)

I am a selfish only child. Until I had my boys, my thoughts on kids were of the "eh, they're okay but not great" variety. Even while I was pregnant with my first, I felt kind of detached from the whole thing. And scared. I was terrified on the changes that were soon to come into my life.

Then I had Evan. Then Drew. Words can never adequately describe my love for them. They are the sweetest, funniest, most precious people in my life. What if I had never given that a chance?

That said, if your gut is telling you NO WAY to kids, you should listen to it. BUT... if there is even the tiniest doubt that you could find happiness with your child, you should give it a chance. It sounds like your partner would be a tremendous support to you.

Also:

1. the only time I peed myself was when I saw the 40 Year Old Virgin during my third trimester... and I bet lots of people peed themselved during that movie.

2. Labor hurts. A lot. There's no denying that. But the pain is a different and specialized kind of pain. AND IT ENDS. Remember: The less you interfere with your body during labor, the more completely the pain is gone once your baby is in your arms.

Good luck to you. I wish you the happiness of a baby.


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
And finally, I have faithfully used birth control all my life. I have suffered two failures, repeat: two failures. I have never, NEVER, yes that's right, not even once in college, have I ever had sex without birth control. Nothing is perfect, and I am far from careless.

One would think after your first failure you would find a more foolproof method. sterilization comes to mind, I hope you are considering that now.


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## AnditheBee (Oct 3, 2003)

I just realized that in my earlier post I never answered the original question: why have kids? People have made terrific lists, and I agree with many of the previously-mentioned reasons.

However, my main reason was that I felt that passing my husband's and my values on to kids we would raise, would help put two responsible, intelligent, caring, hard-working people on the earth. And the earth definitely needs more such people! I can't guarantee how my kids will turn out, but I daresay their chances of turning out well are pretty good if we continue to love them and give them a safe, stable environment and loving (sometimes firm) guidance. Frankly, if we leave all the "breeding" to the willfully ignorant and lazy people of the world, then we have no right to complain about how things turn out.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerikadi*
One would think after your first failure you would find a more foolproof method. sterilization comes to mind, I hope you are considering that now.

I had an abortion between my two oldest sons. I am now pregnant with my fourth child, for the fifth time and would hate to think of my life without the children I've had after abortion, should I have opted for tubal ligation.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kawa kamuri*
I had an abortion between my two oldest sons. I am now pregnant with my fourth child, for the fifth time and would hate to think of my life without the children I've had after abortion, should I have opted for tubal ligation.

yes, but you want children at all. You might not have been ready for another child at the time of your abortion, but you knew that you might want other children. Not quite the same thing as the OP.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Alright, mamas. I think some of you may have forgotten something here. This woman has not come to us and said that she has already HAD another abortion. She is STRUGGLING with a choice, and slamming her, no matter how rough around the edges her story may be, is not going to save this child. Please find compassion within yourself and try to be kind? Aren't we all here to learn? This mama has come here to learn from some of the kindest and most compassionate mothers I know...please try to teach her the things you know to be true! A person who is put on the defensive is less likely to be taught, don't you think?


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
yes, but you want children at all. You might not have been ready for another child at the time of your abortion, but you knew that you might want other children. Not quite the same thing as the OP.









:

This woman is considering abortion for the SECOND time! She has made it clear that she does not want children. She knew after the first abortion that she didn't want children - not further down the line maybe but not at any time.
I am not beating her up. She doesn't want children so doing something permanent rather than relying on bc which we all not is not 100% effective no matter what the method would be the best choice.

Keri


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

A person who is put on the defensive is less likely to be taught, don't you think?
Sure. But whether she learns something from this or not is on her shoulders, no one else's, and I would hope she would be swayed by logic and her own heart rather than other people's manners.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerikadi*
One would think after your first failure you would find a more foolproof method. sterilization comes to mind, I hope you are considering that now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *courteney e*
This woman has not come to us and said that she has already HAD another abortion. She is STRUGGLING with a choice, and slamming her, no matter how rough around the edges her story may be, is not going to save this child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerikadi*
I am not beating her up. She doesn't want children so doing something permanent rather than relying on bc which we all not is not 100% effective no matter what the method would be the best choice.





This may be true, but it also goes without saying. It is also irrelevant to the point of the original post, which is that she is in conflict and looking for perspective. To say that she should not have allowed herself to be in this situation in the first place is pointless. Perhaps she made a mistake, perhaps not -- there are valid reasons not to have surgery or abstain, and not everyone feels the same way about abortion. Further, she may have been led in this direction by her own psyche or by forces outside of herself for a reason, so it is really not for anyone to judge whether she should have gotten pregnant. For all you know, this will be a hugely transformative thing for her to work through and may result in healing and good. Whatever the case, she _is_ pregnant now, and there is no going back. For people to continue to point out her "mistake" -- if it was that -- is not contructive in any sense.


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Yes, fourlittlebirds, that's the point I was trying to make. She is pregnant, and trying to come to terms, AND honestly asking why people want babies...I think HOPING to find some common ground. If she were simply going to abort, she would already have done so. Instead, she is seeking to figure out whether that's TRUELY what she wants to do. That she hasn't already done so leads me to believe that, in her heart, perhaps she doesn't want to. Could we help her instead of bashing her? And no, I DON'T think that bashing her will help. But, that's just my opinion...


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *courtenay_e*
Could we help her instead of bashing her? And no, I DON'T think that bashing her will help. But, that's just my opinion...

Where is she being bashed?








From what I have read I guess my post would seem the most 'agressive' and I only suggested she be serilized and only because she has made it obvoius (if only to me) that she has no desire to have children and plans on keeping this pregnancy a secret from her SO.

These are HER words:

Quote:

I am now in the position where *I am going to have to have another termination*, which is fine with me, but the father is a great guy and I can't tell him about it. He will want it, and I can't handle it. I would rather shoot myself quickly than be pregnant or go through labor.
Nobody has called her names or said anything negative about choosing to abort which I know is likely hard for *some* of us. I think she has been met with MUCH compassion.

I will admit I am one of those people that has a hard time with women using abortion as birth control but that's just *me*.

I don't think any of us want to debate and nobody is being mean or rude - just sharing our opinions on a bulletin board.









Keri


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## courtenay_e (Sep 1, 2005)

Kari, I also really really have a difficult time watching people use abortion as birth control. However, I also know that being "agressive" when people are looking for education and help isn't necessarily the way to get them to change their ways. I'm not looking for an arguement, just hoping to help someone who may be teetering on the edge of NOT aborting a child to keep that baby *alive*! Teach her with kindness. Offer resources (I have done this through pm) to help keep her gestating, to make her more sure of the possibility of birth. She has written that she's printed out the reasons people appreciate/want their children, and is reading them over with an impartial friend. This is definately a step toward keeping that baby alive...even if it's to adopt it out to another person. Lets keep her in that mindset, shall we?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Thread re-opening. A couple of posts have been removed for violating the User Agreement.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
At age 45, maybe you should look into more permanant ways to prevent pregnancy. I mean, it's hardly likely that you don't know your own mind by now and if some incredible incidence does happen to make you want children--you can always adopt.

I should clarify, I said this because often times women who try to get permanent birthcontrol because they know they don't want children are fed a line about how "what if you change your mind?" "kids are *so* wonderful" "you're still young!" Even when they're at an age when other women are being fed lines like "are you sure you should get pregnant at your age?"


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## Shirelle (May 22, 2006)

Why would I want to do this...and do it again?

Look at that man who fathered the unborn child you're carrying. You will love your child as much, some would argue, more, than you love him. Or imagine another person in your life that you love dearly...it won't compare to the love you have for your own child.

The child you're carrying isn't just a "kid" you're going to have---it's a whole life....a baby, child, teenager, adult....your child will probably become a parent and continue that family legacy. This goes beyond you and what you want right now--it will affect so many more lives than just your own.


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## velcromom (Sep 23, 2003)

I can say I was one who never cared for children, did not actually like being around them, felt no fondness for them whatsoever. I said in my teens I'd never want to be a mom.

Ds1 was a surprise, and I couldn't even imagine what life would be like with a child... but you know what, it all changed when he was born. Maternal instinct kicked in and all that resistance and distaste for everything child-related faded away.

I'm not saying it's all rainbows and butterflies, it's still just life - sometimes rough sometimes euphoric, and anywhere inbetween. But way better than I could have or would have predicted, before actually having a child I would have predicted negative consequences to my life. I was wrong about that.

Now my husband and I are ttc.. and we ask ourselves why we want another child, why bring a person into this life? I am looking at it as inviting a person into this life to share it with us, I've seen how families grow together and it can be so amazing. It can be fulfilling, even if it is not what you thought you wanted.

There are lots of couples out there who can't have children - could you consider adoption if you ultimately decide that you do not want to raise a child?


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## grumpyshoegirl (Mar 2, 2006)

To the OP, if you're still reading:

We obviously come from two different planets when it comes to children, as I've wanted to be a mom my whole life, but you did come seeking a different perspective.

Children are the future. That's incredibly tribe but absolutely true. We have the opportunity to change the world not only in what we do with our own lives but what we do to help shape our children's lives. Being the best mother I can be to my amazing daughter is just as important a contribution as the work I do in mathematics and music, at my job, every day.

Even knowing that I wanted to be a mom, pregnancy was the most amazing experience, and motherhood has been even better. That's not to say there aren't challenges, although unlike your friends, I have never peed myself, and during pregnancy only vomited once, and that was from an unrelated illness. I couldn't believe how outright cool it was to feel another being growing inside me, and nothing compares with the first time I felt movement. And then she was born. As much as I loved her while I was pregnant, the love I have for her now dwarfs it. She made our family a family. She brought my husband and me much closer.....and he was ambivalent at best about having kids before she was born!

I think your friends' experiences may be colored by their attitudes. Are they people who have always valued material success and tangible milestones? To people like this, having a child might be seen as one more accomplishment, another thing to tick off on the great to-do list of life. When confronted with the reality of poopy diapers, runny noses, and middle-of-the-night crying, these parents might regret having a baby who isn't just always cute and adorable. You repeatedly mention these people as close friends, and friends usually share the same values. If you have never liked or wanted children, then odds are they never really wanted them for deeper-seeded reasons either. This will definitely color the way they view the not-so-easy parts of parenthood.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Haven't read the whole thread yet and it looks like to gets kind of ugly.

There are some parallels between my life and yours. I have one child who was born when I was 33 and I'm 36 now and DH is 46. I terminated a pregnancy with DH (not married then) when I was in my early 20s. We've been together for quite some time and had a fabulous life pre-baby. I never wanted children as a young adult, but I always figured that my bio clock would one day start ticking. I figured I'd want them when I got older. I was ambivalent about getting pregnant at 32. I still wasn't sure I wanted a kid, but figured I would give it a go since I was running out of time to change my mind. DH and I were both like - if it works, great and if not, well, we've got a pretty good life. To our surprise we got pregnant right away.

My pregnancy was great, again to my surprise. I really enjoyed it. People are always happy to see a pregnant woman. I think it reminds them of hope and future. I'm not one who usually like attention all the time (the whole bridal scene gave me the heebejeebies), but I enjoyed the pregnancy. DH and I (who had been together for 11 years) fell in love all over again while I was pregnant. Never thought that would happen, but it was like we were first dating. We laid in bed and simply gazed into each others eyes - just like new pupply love. I mean, after 11 years, I kinda figured that aspect was over for both of us. A co-worker, also pregnant in her 40s said the same thing to me and was equally surprised.

And here's my favorite story. I used to love to lay in bed and read the Sunday paper with DH. This was our quality time - lazy decadence from a hectic workweek. I couldn't imagine what my life would be like with some screaming kid pulling me out of bed in the morning. And one day, after I had my daughter and I was tickling her in our bed together, and nuzzling her and making her laugh, it ocurred to me that I didn't miss that paper one darn bit! My child was so absorbing, so interesting and even at times relaxing, that it just superceded any thought of the Sunday paper.

Obviously, we can't make this decision for you. But I wanted you to know that there are people who aren't so different from you. Annie Lamott is a good author to read - her situation is similar to yours, but the father was skipping out and she was a poor struggling writer. I liked Meredith Small's Our Babies Ourselves for opening my eyes to the uniquely Western view that children REQUIRE sacrifice on the part of the parents. That's not a given, it's just a cultural construct. Finally, Jean Liedloff's The Continuum Concept gave the confidence to understand that I didn't have to subjugate my life for that of my baby's. It showed me that I could have a child and bring her into my life, not change my life for hers.

PS - I'm 5'2", 100lbs soaking wet and a "pain weenie." I gained 47lbs while pregnant and easily birthed an 8lb 9 0z health baby girl naturally. Childbirth does not HAVE to be the horror story so many people make it out to be! Labor pain is not like other pain - it's really like good pain. I had a great doula supplied by the hospital.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

I too wonder if the OP even still around and wonder how/why she came here of all places.

However, I just wanted to add that I, in general, don't like children. I love my children, but I don't like kids or think they are cute or enjoy being around other people's children. There are a few rare exceptions, but in general I don't like kids. But I love my children and wouldn't give them up for the world, I would do it all again.


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## ACesPlace (May 27, 2006)

Thank you all for your input. No, I am not a troll. I have so little computer experience I had to ask someone to define a troll for me. (The only troll I knew about was the travelocity elf or whatever he is called.)

This has been an amazing personal experience for me. Other than the fact that I have learned a great deal about how to surf the internet--and I learned in a hurry, I might add--I have learned a great deal about myself. Some of it is good; some, not so good.

I congratulate all of you on your dedication to AP and the other natural philosophies you share and put to good practice. I know you are all good and caring mothers.

Again, thank you for your time. It has been a truly amazing experience.


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## littlemama06 (Oct 29, 2005)

I hope we were all able to help you. I hope you have peace in what ever you decide.If you do chose to have your baby, you will learn a bunch about being a parent here at MDC.

Kaitlin


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## PinkPixie (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I don't want anyone believing that they are aborting a baby who would be unwanted - I want him or her.

dar

I agree,

Every child is a wanted child, if not by the birth parents,
then by some other couple who has a void in their life
that can only be filled by a child.


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## PinkPixie (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ACesPlace*
I am very serious about this, very serious, this is no joke. Would you please tell me why you would want to have a child? Here's my situation in a nutshell.

I am now in the position where I am going to have to have another termination, which is fine with me, but the father is a great guy and I can't tell him about it. He has two kids, loves them, and will flip out. He agreed that we will not have a child, due to my age, but that was before this took place. He will want it, and I can't handle it. I would rather shoot myself quickly than be pregnant or go through labor. The whole thing makes me sick. I love him and I feel badly for him, though.

Maybe there is something about this I don't understand. I never did understand it, but then again, with the first termination my then-husband didn't want it, either. I didn't think twice about this question. We divorced for reasons other than the termination.

Maybe you can help me understand why you would do this to your bodies and lives. I guess I missed something somewhere.

Good luck to all of you with your pregnancies!:

This is saddest post I have ever read,







my heart aches for you.

You are right, there really is something that you don't understand.









You mention how scared you are of pain/suffering: no one ever said that life will be pain free, physical or emotional.
Ironically thought, it is the those things for which we have suffered the most that are the most valuable in our life and that transform us from the very core in our spirit.

I have four wonderful children, and I have puked my way through all the 3 years total of my life that I have spent pregnant, I have surfed the contractions of labour and pushed four beautiful lives into this world, and I would do it all again.

Having children is an investment, not one of the financial kind, but an investment in your life.

Think of this; when you will be old, and you are suffering from an ageing body, who will be there for you? When you are on your death bed, as all of us will be one day, what would you think about your life?

As Antoine de St-Exupery said in "The Little Prince"







: "It is the time that you have lost for your rose that makes your rose so important".


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

yeah, you just don't understand and you really shouldn't have kids.

Quote:

why do these people want to have children, be pregnant, deal with the problems, pee themselves for the rest of their lives, vomit for months on end, and then deal with labor?
1. i never wanted children originally BUT...
2. at the time that i got pregnant with my son, i was a pro-ilfe activist, and so i kept him and dealt with pregnancy.... and i realized i LOVED being pregnant, and despite the pain of labor i gladly and joyfully did it again. and if i had the emotional strength + financial resources i honestly wouldn't have minded having LOTS more.
3. i'm offended that you think mothers "pee themselves for the rest of their lives." kegels were invented for a reason, yk. and i haven't peed myself since i was 5 years old.
4. and "vomit for months on end" doesn't happen all that frequently; more often, women deal with a much more mild form of morning sickness, and some don't have any.

you say you don't know any women who would do it again.... well, then i have to say that you're among the wrong crew to be posing this question.







i think most women on these forum WOULD do it again. ethically though i believe it is more important to give homes to children who are in the adoption system, which is why i personally chose to get sterilized. but i honestly did love being pregnant, and i loved giving birth, even though it was hard. my daughter's birth was one of the most beautiful, transformational experiences of my liffe.

i can see though that it's not right for you.

i have to ask ~~ if you knew you felt this strongly about never wanting children, why did you keep yourself fertile? why not get your tubes tied? it seems irresponsible to me when you knew you never wanted children, and especially after having already had one abortion....


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Why did I want children? Wow...that's just such a huge question...

When I was a teenager, I didn't want kids. All my friends used to talk about them, but I wasn't interested. They seemed like such a huge imposition on my life. Then, when I was about 18, I found myself staring at cute kids in the stores and on the street, and thinking, "I want one" all the time. I never really thought about why.

I had a terrific first pregnancy - no morning sickness, no blotches, no weird aches (except once when I got stuck leaned over). My skin glowed...I felt absolutely gorgeous - more beautiful than I ever have before or since. I was hyped about labour, and was in my element. One of my friends called me "the Earth Mother", which was kind of funny, as it was just so NOT me. Another friend noticed that my emotional ups and downs - moodiness - evaporated when I was pregnant. Pregnancy lent me emotional stability and put me on an even keel - I was mellow.

Then, at the end, my son was taken from me by "emergency" c-section. It was horrible - it really was. I woke up drugged, and didn't know where I was or why I was there. Then, on my way to the maternity ward after recovery, they placed my son beside me on the gurney in the hallway...just for a few seconds. There are no words on this earth to explain how I felt when I touched his little cheek and he opened those big eyes and looked at me...he knew who I was, and I'd never felt so totally in love, so committed, so in _awe_ of another human being in my life. That moment was pure and total magic.

I can't really imagine what it feels like to be pregnant with a baby you don't want. After my first, it took me ten years to have another one...monthly heartbreak when I had a period...hours and hours of tears with each of my three miscarriages...then, _finally_ I had my daughter, and now I know what a miracle really is. I'd almost given up, and there she was - another baby to fall in love with at first sight. Then, ds2...a third. I never did have morning sickness, and never did have the aches and pains, aside from a mild bout of sciatica at the beginning of my pregnancy with my youngest.

There's pure magic in feeling your baby fall asleep in your arms.

There's no feeling in the world like nursing a baby while it rests its hand on your breast, or holds onto your finger, and stares into your eyes.

There's no...recognition in the world like when your new baby first opens its eyes, and _knows_ you.

Watching them grow and develop as people is a privilege and a joy. Watching those little minds soak up ideas and knowledge is inspiring.

The feeling of belonging to a family - _our_ family...vacations, Christmas morning, rolling around on the floor with kids climbing on me, teaching them ABC's, counting, yoga, cooking, etc., etc., etc., etc. It's...a trip...

I don't know exactly why I wanted children - I think it may have been because I wanted to see the world through their eyes again. I was cynical and somewhat jaded by the time I was 15 (drugs, alcohol, sexual abuse, bullying, etc., etc.), and I think I wanted some of that childhood wonder back. I got it...but I got sooooo much more...

I want one more - four children sounds about right to me...


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## [email protected] (May 24, 2005)

I'm going to step out on a limb here, and really expose myself, ACe.

I have also had a termination many years ago when I was a teenager. It wasn't what I wanted, I was very much coerced into it, and I think about that baby daily, even now, when I have a live babe in my arms. I'm accutely aware of what I gave up, and regret it.

Abortion is something that touches many peoples lives - depending on the statistic you beleive, it's reported that almost half of US women under the age of 45 have had at least one termination. It's a taboo subject, and as a result, many women suffer with the aftermath in silence.

Maybe I'm putting my feelings into your posts, but your prior termination does seem to affect how you feel about children - it did for me, but in the opposite way. Either way, it's not healthy. I saw someone has posted a link to Rachel's Vineyard, a retreat for post abortive women. I have never been on one, but understand it to be of a Christian POV. If this isn't your cup of tea, there are non-biased support groups.

If you so desire, check out www.afterabortion.com or the messageboards that go with it www.passboards.org They don't support abortion, it is not a pro-choice website, nor a pro-life one. It's just support from women who know the hurt.

Good luck with your choice. It's not an easy one, but no one needs to tell you that, I'm sure.


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

well i could say so much but there are a couple of things that I really want to say in regards to the OP's pov.

1.) i love my children. I love being pregnant (sometimes) i don't love giving birth (who does?) but it gets the baby outside.

2.) I don't like other people's children. they are loud and I don't know them and they seem to be alien or monsters. not that they are just that I personally do not like anyone who i am not around a lot.

3.) I seem to remember you saying something about kids not giving anything back...I would like to question teh parenting practices of the parents of the kids who don't show any affection for their parents...my son is almost 15mos and he shows me daily how much he loves me. its precious little compared to the sheer amount of energy (physical, emotional and mental) that motherhood takes out of me but i am a SINGLE mother and so am doing it all alone.

4.) i second also the PP who said what she did about abuse. i never considered this but i never wanted a daughter and perhaps my past abuses is part of that. I don't know I ended up with both boys so its a nonissue.

oh also i'm looking at having my wisdom teeth pulled (4) and cavities filled (4) and i really would prefer to give birth then go through that. even knowing i won't feel anything.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

_i don't generally like other people's children either. shhhh!_







:


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
_i don't generally like other people's children either. shhhh!_







:

i don't know anyone who likes other peoples children. no one i know likes my child. why? because he is MY child and not theirs. *shrugs*


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## grace's voice (May 12, 2005)

Yeah, I've never liked other people's kids either (and I used to be a nanny, scary, I know!).


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## boscopup (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalebsMama05*
i don't know anyone who likes other peoples children. no one i know likes my child. why? because he is MY child and not theirs. *shrugs*

Everyone likes my son.







Really, I'm serious. They do. But maybe it's just his personality that sucks them in.









But yeah, I don't always like other people's children, or often I just don't know what to do with them. But I have no trouble with my own! I do like some other people's children. I teach a 2 year old class at church, and those kids are so much fun to teach. There are some that I really get attached to, and some that I'm just glad they're not my child.







:

When I see ill behaved children in a grocery store or something... No, I'm not sucked in by them. For example, I walked into Walmart the other day and saw this 6-7 year old (?) boy HITTING his mother. I mean swinging that arm back and slapping her! I didn't particularly like that child, obviously! And at that age, seems like he should have been taught LONG ago not to hit (even my not quite 2 year old knows better!). I can see why someone would see a child like that and decide they don't want kids. But then I see children who stay with their mom, listen to their mom, help their mom with the groceries, and look very happy and well adjusted - those kids make me want children.


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## grace's voice (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boscopup*
When I see ill behaved children in a grocery store or something... No, I'm not sucked in by them. For example, I walked into Walmart the other day and saw this 6-7 year old (?) boy HITTING his mother. I mean swinging that arm back and slapping her! I didn't particularly like that child, obviously! And at that age, seems like he should have been taught LONG ago not to hit (even my not quite 2 year old knows better!). I can see why someone would see a child like that and decide they don't want kids. But then I see children who stay with their mom, listen to their mom, help their mom with the groceries, and look very happy and well adjusted - those kids make me want children.










Yeah, but its sad for them too. Obviously they're so starved for positive attention they're forced to demand attention, even if its negitive. When I see kids like that I'm usually more irritated with their parents. My brothers are like that, crazy, abusive kids. My mom is totally not a parent to them at all... I was raised by my grandmother, thank goodness! There are kids who have higher needs than others and there are kids who have mental issues that cause behavioral problems, but I really don't think there is such a thing as a "bad" child. Just parents who don't meet the child's needs or set proper boundries.


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

nice to know i'm not just a mean person. I really love Caleb and i adore spending time with him but the only other kids i like/can tolerate are the ones that i've spent a lot of time with. maybe because i see them as *people* and I generally am slow to warm up to people. if i spend time with other peoples kids i can get to know them and usually like them.

very interesting.

Vera-my 15month old is learning quickly that hitting is a definate no no. the one i'm having problems with is kicking...he's constantly kicking me during diaper changes. drives me batty!


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## CalebsMama05 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grace's voice*
Yeah, but its sad for them too. Obviously they're so starved for positive attention they're forced to demand attention, even if its negitive. When I see kids like that I'm usually more irritated with their parents. My brothers are like that, crazy, abusive kids. My mom is totally not a parent to them at all... I was raised by my grandmother, thank goodness! There are kids who have higher needs than others and there are kids who have mental issues that cause behavioral problems, but I really don't think there is such a thing as a "bad" child. Just parents who don't meet the child's needs or set proper boundries.

it especially angers me when people's kids act like that and you point out their behavior and they say "oh they are just doing it to get attention" UM HELLO GIVE IT TO THEM!! i just don't get it...

oh sry for hijacking the post


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalebsMama05*
i don't love giving birth (who does?)

I do! Well, okay, I could do without the really painful part (about two hours of intense back labor) but the rest of it (speaking of my spontaneous nonmanaged births that took place in privacy) was _awesome_. And the part where the baby comes down and out and the immediate minutes after birth? I wish I could remember that feeling for the rest of my life. Granted, I had pretty much an ideal birth for me, nobody fooling around with my genitals or ordering me around, no need to feel self-conscious, flooded with endorphins and oxytocin. I would do it again and again and again if I could.

Quote:

2.) they are loud and I don't know them and they seem to be alien
Come to think of it, I feel that way about a lot of adults...

Quote:

I seem to remember you saying something about kids not giving anything back...I would like to question teh parenting practices of the parents of the kids who don't show any affection for their parents...my son is almost 15mos and he shows me daily how much he loves me.
Oh wow, yeah. That is the best thing about being a parent. It's impossible to describe to someone who hasn't been inside it, I mean, how do you describe _any_ emotional experience to someone who hasn't ever been in it? The description is always going to fall far short of the reality. But it's amazingly wonderful. It's been such a huge gift. But yeah, it's not something that just happens. Like any deeply intimate, trusting love relationship, it has to be cultivated.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Gosh, now I feel like a weirdo, because I do like most children. And I'm not really a stereotypical lovey-dovey mommy type either.

Of course, I also like most adults, which may also make me odd.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't _dis_like most children, I just don't feel anything special about them. That's true, for me, with adults in general, too, though. The difference is that I'm more likely to be able to find some way of making a connection with an adult, because the adult is more likely to be able talk on my level, and have a similar understanding of the world. Children are in such a different place, emotionally, developmentally, mentally... That said, I have even _more_ in common with my children than any adult, because we are so close genetically and I have shared my body with them since they were conceived, and has similar life experiences since they were born. They are like me in many ways, having come from me, so I understand them. We have a deep, visceral connection that I don't have with anyone else. So I am more comfortable and find them more compelling than anyone else.


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