# The case against Epidurals...



## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

No, I am not thinking about having one.







. I am just curious why they are BAD. I honestly did not have them for fear of that they may do to ME in the after effects. My mom tried to have one with my sister. (she was 41 and having a c-sec, and the epi wouldnt work. The pain that woman went through for weeks afterwards warded me off FOREVER) but i keep getting mixed info about how they are bad for the BABY. Now I have been told that nubain isnt AS bad, (nothing is best.) but the epi is way worse? How so? I dont understand and its finally driven me batty trying to get a No Bias No Bull answer. TIA!


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## jennyfah (Jul 20, 2006)

Here are a few reasons off the top of my head: Epidurals require the mother to be confined to bed with tubes in practically every orifice, and to labor and push the baby out on her back or in stirrups, which is known to be less than optimal for the integrity of the perineum (to put it mildly); depending on the cocktail of drugs used and the reaction of the mother/baby to the drugs they can interfere with the breastfeeding relationship; they can make it very difficult to push the baby out; they sometimes slow labor, which lead to the use of pitocin to augment labor, which leads to fetal heart decelerations, which leads to more interventions. . . you can use your imagination from there.









I personally have experienced the cascade of interventions that I described above. I know that sometimes epidurals are needed, but there are many things you can do to avoid epidural anesthesia and the cascade of interventions that often follows.







Having a supportive, trained labor assistant can make all the difference!

I recommend reading "Pushed" by Jennifer Block and "The Thinking Woman's Guide To a Better Birth" by Henci Goer. Block has some great quotes in her book by a British midwife about epidural anesthesia and why she believes it's so pervasive.








And above all, I recommend hiring a doula!!!









Best wishes,
Jen

eta: not to mention the fact that the top of my legs from my waist to my knees was numb for six months after my epi. . . gotta wonder what THAT was about! My grief.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

I'd take an epidural if I had to, say if I couldn't progress until I got some rest after laboring for a few days on end. No way I'd really want to go for it, though I understand those who do (well, in the midst of labor last time I said I understood them anyway).

Epidurals have to go in the spine, could possibly give meningitis a route in, could possibly paralyze you. Could give back pain for months after. Headaches afterward. The drugs can lower your BP dangerously. Some gets to the baby, though not as badly as narcotics. It can slow or stop labor progress. Could lead to fetal distress. You're stuck in bed. You'd probably need a catheter to urinate. They take a while to wear off, if you have it in effect in 2nd stage your body isn't giving pushing signals to you so well.

And those "take the edge off" injections or drips of narcotics are no better, they can slow your digestion and make you vomit, make you feel drunk or out of control, affect the baby a lot esp if given less than 4 hours prior to birth. Affected babies could have trouble breathing and trouble nursing. Sometimes they can lead to fetal distress too.

Any pain meds will mess with your normal hormonal responses to labor, decreasing your natural oxytocin and your endorphins. It's feeling the sensations of labor that bring on the higher doses that keep things moving along and make sure you can handle it.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamieCatheryn* 
Any pain meds will mess with your normal hormonal responses to labor, decreasing your natural oxytocin and your endorphins. It's feeling the sensations of labor that bring on the higher doses that keep things moving along and make sure you can handle it.

Yup. Synthetic oxytocin (Pitocin) doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so it doesn't lead to that release of the "love hormone" (Oxytocin) or the release of endorphins the way the natural process would.

You've already gotten a great rundown on the effects of epidural on the Mom. In addition, the idea of being paralyzed from the waist down & thus out of control of my own birth experience was, for me, more horrifying than any physical pain. I didn't want to feel controlled by docs & trapped in the bed.

But back to your original Q on effects of the baby... I think some of the drugs do get to the baby, but there is very little, if any, research that outlines ill effects. I'm pretty sure Henci Goer wrote that there was only ever antecdotal evidence that babies had a harder time nursing... no actual science saying that. I don't think there have been any long term studies on the effects to the baby.

Not sure on the effects of the narcotics. I never read up because I never considered them because they make me nauseous & I find nausea more unpleasant than pain anyway.


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## wbg (Mar 28, 2008)

:







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## dachshundqueen (Dec 17, 2004)

I kept asking DH if I had a gaping hole in my back for weeks, very unsettling.

Liz


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## Naomi'sMommy (Jun 18, 2007)

Because the drugs stay in your child for at least TWO WEEKS after birth and we have no idea of the long term side effects of the epidural. It not only affects you, but the baby as well.

I'm convinced my DD was not interested in nursing right after birth due to the epidural/ pitocin- too sleepy, etc.... (we struggled A LOT at first, but eventually overcame and had a successful breastfeeding relationship) BUT after my natural birth with DS- he nursed like a champ from the start.

Good luck, Mama.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Naomi'sMommy* 
I'm convinced my DD was not interested in nursing right after birth due to the epidural/ pitocin- too sleepy, etc....

I had a total, completely natural birth. The only "interference" is that the MW had me push lying on my left side vs. hands & knees b/c DS' HR was dropping to about 70's.

He had NO interest in BFing at birth. He wasn't super sleepy - he did look around, but he wouldn't open his mouth. He was born at 6:50 PM & I'm pretty sure it wasn't until after midnight that he latched on for the first time.







I was all alone & it was the _weirdest_ experience! Like, wow, huh, this works!

I mentioned this to a newly-trained doula friend of mine. She asked if DS was late because she said she's heard of that happening with post-dates babies. He was 41W4d - approaching "late" although not officially "post-dates" (42W), but close.


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## Naomi'sMommy (Jun 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I mentioned this to a newly-trained doula friend of mine. She asked if DS was late because she said she's heard of that happening with post-dates babies. He was 41W4d - approaching "late" although not officially "post-dates" (42W), but close.

My DD wasn't late though....a bit early actually. That is interesting though.


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Naomi'sMommy* 
My DD wasn't late though....a bit early actually. That is interesting though.

I have actually heard the opposite, that early babies (like yours Naomi'sMommy) are more sleepy and don't nurse as much. I think there are a lot of variations of normal for the first day and BF'ing.


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## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I mentioned this to a newly-trained doula friend of mine. She asked if DS was late because she said she's heard of that happening with post-dates babies. He was 41W4d - approaching "late" although not officially "post-dates" (42W), but close.

All my babies were post dates and all latched on right after birth. Even the epidural one.

Op: One of the side effects of epidural can be increase in body temp, which looks like a fever. They treat it as such and will monitor the baby afterwards as well for infection.


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## Whistler (Jan 30, 2009)

Mostly to play the Devil's Advocate here, I had heard all the horror stories about an epi and I was terrified to get one. But I labored for days, I had a cramp in my groin and could not rest between contractions, I was screaming... you get the picture.

I chose the epi and was able to rest, finish dilating and push her out. without it I would have had to have an emergency C-section, it was that bad.

The epi had NO adverse side effects on either me or the baby. If you have to have one, don't get too scared, it just makes a bad situation worse.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

The site where the epi was inserted ACHED for almost a year after DD was born via c/s.







I'd easily trade few hours of intense pain for that!


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

There was a study the teacher of my birth class showed us where babies who had unmedicated births were able, within an hour of birth, when no one removed them from their mothers and they were immediately put on her belly, to crawl/creep up, find the nipple on their own, latch on and nurse. In the group of babies where moms had drugs of any kind (even epidurals) the babies could not do it. So there is some effect on breastfeeding.

As for me, I had one for my first after being on pit for 3 hours (which was worse than my natural birth with #2) and I STILL have pain in the epidural site on occassion, nearly 4 1/2 years later. It tends to get worse when I'm pregnant. The other night it kept me up for a half hour.

That being said, if it was epidural because I was exhausted due to a long labor and there was no way I'd get the baby out otherwise, at that point the benefit (vaginal birth over c/s) would outweigh the risks in my book. But getting one solely for pain relief is something I would never choose.


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## AlwaysByMySide (May 4, 2007)

Another Devil's Advocate.

Three inductions, three epidurals. In fact, with the third, I had the epidural in and going before my water was broken and Pit was started.

I felt pressure with all three to know when I was ready to push. (In fact, I was the one calling in the midwives in all three cases because I could feel the pressure. Not pain, pressure.) I pushed 15 minutes with the first, not at all with the second (she came out on her own with the contractions, which was pretty cool), and two pushes with the third. Got a "skid mark" with the first two, nothing with the third.

All three babies had Apgars of 9 and 10. All three latched on immediately and breastfeeding was established well. I was up and walking within 10 minutes of delivery with all three.

Baby #1 was born at 41 weeks, and I was GBS+ with her. She was a Cervidil/Pit induction, and I was given Ambien after the Cervidil. Three hours of actual labor.

Baby #2 was 39 and some change, and I had gestational diabetes with her. Cytotec (oral)/Pit induction. If I remember correctly, it was only a few hours of actual labor. (I was admitted at 7am, Cytotec a few hours later, Pit MUCH later, baby before midnight.)

Baby #3 was 38 weeks. Pit only, and ARM. Actual labor = 1 hour.

I had no side effects from any of the epidurals.

Not saying it works this way for everyone, just sharing my experiences.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

My epi site hurt for about a year...just felt like a nickel sized bruise. Other than that- I really didn't experience other negatives. DD nursed about an hour after birth and was a champ nurser. My milk came in on day four, and I woke up to soaked sheets.
DD was very sleepy on her 3rd, 4th, and 5th day but she had a HORRIBLE case of jaundice (her biliruben was 28!!!) from being born almost 5 weeks early.
I labored for 6 hours with pitocin before I caved for the epi, I think next time it will be easier NOT to have the epi.
In general I don't see them as horrible.


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## Baby_Vol (Jan 10, 2007)

I had a friend die as a direct result of her epidural. You sign a waiver before-hand saying you could die or be paralyzed, so her husband couldn't sue or anything. It was horrible though. That started me on my path to discover Natural Childbirth.

I had an epi with my son. It slowed my labor, leading the nurses to ask me if they could start Pit. I told them yes. The Pit was too much for my son though, and it put him in distress. That lead to the doctor putting an internal monitor on him ...3 small screws were placed in his skull. Yes, you read that correctly ...he had 3 small screw holes in his head upon birth.







It still makes me sad, and I do blame the interventions starting with the epi.

My daughter was born med-free ..no holes in her head or in my body. We used water for the labor pains, and it helped me as much as the epi did with my son. I'd do it that way again in a heartbeat ....the epi way, not so much.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

I had an ok epidural experience. I planned a HB, but after a VERY long labor and little progress and some back tracking I decided to transfer for a sleeping pill and some pitocin. I just wanted to make the labor GO, I couldn't sleep and I was never going to be able to push at that rate. So I transferred after 36 hours. I was having contractions with triple peaks, some of which lasting 3 minutes long. I also had contractions that just peaked off the monitor and lasted 3 minutes.

I got to the hospital and I had contigent care with the midwives there. They gave me my options, I hashed them out and chose a sleeping pill and then some pitocin if my nap didn't help. I then proceeded to have a muscle spasm with a contraction that lasted 3 minutes and made the L&D nurse just STARE at the screen with a dropped jaw. I then proceeded to scream I wanted my effing epidural. They got me some Stadol, then I had the Epi, which was a light epi, then I started the pit. I fell asleep for 2 hours, woke up, threw up, water broke, epi wore off, got shut off and had a great vaginal birth, I was allowed to move and push in any position. While I pushed they fed me popsicles in between.

It only took me 30 minutes and I felt ALL of the crowning.

I did have back pain and a hard time standing for long periods of time for the first 2 months after birth. I am not sure that was the epidural. I honestly believe without my epi I would have not had a vaginal birth. I also had a hard time bfing (due to numerous issues). Not sure if that was related.

But I hope to go completely natural this time, I plan to have support in the areas that I needed it last time. But all labors are different and I will judge at the time what I need to do.

I do want to add that my HB MW remarked that she had not been to many births where mom had any type of epidural and was allowed to move the way I did. I pushed on the toilet, standing with support, squatting with the bar, semi squatting with bed support with feet ON the bar (which is how I delivered). I did have an intact perineum, but my MW massaged the dickens out of it with a BUCKET of oil during crowning.


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## CookAMH (Jun 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
There was a study the teacher of my birth class showed us where babies who had unmedicated births were able, within an hour of birth, when no one removed them from their mothers and they were immediately put on her belly, to crawl/creep up, find the nipple on their own, latch on and nurse. In the group of babies where moms had drugs of any kind (even epidurals) the babies could not do it. So there is some effect on breastfeeding.

I saw that too, it was fascinating!!!


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I had 2 great experiences with epidurals (my first one was not so great because my baby was posterior and the back pain was excrutiating even with drugs) and both of those babies have been great nursers from moments after birth. With my most recent baby I had an epidural, IV Pitocin and even *gasp!* Cytotec. I would totes do it again too because I felt great during labor and had no trouble at all pushing my baby out and he was 8 lbs.

On the other hand, I would never get IV meds because they do get to the baby and affect them, which I saw with my first son when I was trying to avoid getting the epidural. He was impossible to nurse for many hours after he was born and was extremely sleepy and uncoordinated.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
babies who had unmedicated births were able, within an hour of birth, when no one removed them from their mothers and they were immediately put on her belly, to crawl/creep up, find the nipple on their own, latch on and nurse.

I think I read this is traditional in Sweden. Someone theorized that maybe our aerolas are darker to help baby FIND the nipple. But it honestly baffles me. Newborns can't hold up their own heads! How do they manage to crawl to the nipple & latch on???

During his first few weeks of life, I tried having DS on my chest & letting him latch himself on a few times - never worked. Even now at over 8 mos, he still isn't really crawling. So I have a hard time imaging this.


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## jennyfah (Jul 20, 2006)




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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

My medicated (epidural) babies could've done the breast crawl. Especially #2. She was just so impressive with how desperately she wanted the breast. It was as if she'd been starving the whole gestation (and if fact she wasn't growing anymore in me) She still nursing like a maniac at almost 3!

Anyway, I'd try again next time (goodness forbid there be a next time) to not have an epidural but not feel bad if I did. My experience has been that I don't dilate well without them.


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## KristyDi (Jun 5, 2007)

I had none of the negative side effects of an epi, except that I'm pretty sure it slowed my labor by a few hours but I hated every freaking min of it. I labored 10 hours w/ a straight pit induction and had the epi for 3 hours. I hated the 3 epi hours worse than the 10.

I literally felt tied down. I was helpless and need my mom or dh to help me even shift position. I was terrified of moving wrong and ripping either the eip or the internal monitors out. And worst of all I felt completely out of control of my own body and disconnected from the lower half of it.

After being convinced that I needed to press the button to up the dose to make me feel better (it didn't) I had them turn it down enough so that thankfully I could feel enough of the contractions to be able to push effectively. Though I think I would have torn less had I been able to feel better and follow the urge to push.

Just my personal experience with a "good" epi.


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## dlm194 (Mar 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
There was a study the teacher of my birth class showed us where babies who had unmedicated births were able, within an hour of birth, when no one removed them from their mothers and they were immediately put on her belly, to crawl/creep up, find the nipple on their own, latch on and nurse. In the group of babies where moms had drugs of any kind (even epidurals) the babies could not do it. So there is some effect on breastfeeding.

I didn't have an epidural with my 2nd baby and about 2 minutes after she was born, I pushed her toward my boob, she picked her head up, opened her mouth and latched right on! It was the most amazing thing ever! My doula was also a LLL leader and was total amazed b/c she hadn't seen that before (heard about it but hadn't seen it!). I was so happy to have a LLL leader there to help me get breastfeeding started well but I needed absolutely no help!









My c-section baby (c-section for ftp following the usual cascade of interventions) did get latched and we successfully breastfed for years but it was much more difficult.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
The site where the epi was inserted ACHED for almost a year after DD was born via c/s.







I'd easily trade few hours of intense pain for that!









It's been 4 years and I still wake up every day with back pain....







I know epidurals don't always cause problems and there is a time and a place for them (like when a mom really needs to rest or isn't coping well) but I knew the 2nd time that I would just deal with whatever pain b/c the 6 weeks of physical therapy and various other pain relieving things I've done over the years, just aren't worth the couple hours of pain free labor for me.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dlm194* 
It's been 4 years and I still wake up every day with back pain....









I know the rate of complications from epi's must be higher than the docs lead us to believe. I've met several ppl IRL who've also had complications. They really owe it to the public to make a stronger warning about them...instead most believe there's little risk of complications.







:


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## mamatoady (Mar 16, 2004)

I had an epi after a pit induction with #1. Pitocin is straight from hell if you asked me and that epi saved me.(note: not that I could have, but with my homebirth, I never even thought about it--natural is no where NEAR the pain of pit IMO)

Anyway, I personally had no side effects from the epi, but I blame my totally drugged up baby to all the meds. She slept so hard--I literally could not wake her up when she had slept 6-7 hours. When she did eventually stir, she would go back to sleep after 5-10 minutes of nursing....try as I might I could not keep her awake to nurse more. I had lactation consultants at my house and I sought them out because she had almost no suck--she just had no energy...she was otherwise a healthy, full-term baby.

When my son was born he latched onto my boob shortly after my placenta came out and nursed a good long while before falling asleep. It was amazing.

Although I can't prove it, I 100% blame the drugged birth to my rough start with dd. It lasted about 2 weeks.

Sarah


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## VaDoula (Jan 18, 2007)

I had an epidural with my first and felt like I had a bruise and an ache in my back in that spot for at least a year. I kept asking my husband to check for a big bruise but he could never see one. My son also had low blood sugar from it and I could not get him to nurse again fast enough so they gave him a little formula to get it up. He threw up from the time they fed him the formula well into the next day. The IV fluids come with the epidural and I was super bloated all over for a few days afterwards. I looked fatter after I had him than I did when I left for the hospital. He did nurse after he cleared his system of that nasty stuff but I really felt like if I had not had the epi. we could have avoided a lot of pains. Needless to say, with my second I went to a birth center and had a completely natural birth with no interventions and no ill side effects.


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## by-the-lake (Jul 2, 2008)

Just chiming in to say I'm glad there are good epi experiences, and not every baby reacts the same, but as a nursery RN, more often (read, not all) babies of epidurals have a harder time waking up to nurse. It seems to be related to the length of time the epidural was in; ie, the longer the epidural was in, the sleepier the baby. Its just our observation, and there are always exception to this.


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## mamatoady (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *by-the-lake* 
Just babies of epidurals have a harder time waking up to nurse..

thanks! I guess it wasn't just my hypothesis!

Sarah


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoady* 
thanks! I guess it wasn't just my hypothesis!

Sarah

I believe you have her quote wrong - she said:

Quote:

Just chiming in to say I'm glad there are good epi experiences, and not every baby reacts the same, but as a nursery RN, *more often (read, not all) babies of epidurals have a harder time waking up to nurse*. It seems to be related to the length of time the epidural was in; ie, the longer the epidural was in, the sleepier the baby. Its just our observation, and there are always exception to this.
and not that just babies of epidurals have a harder time waking up.


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## Freefromitall (Sep 15, 2008)

I had two great births with epis, I had zero trouble bfing my first, tons of trouble wiht my second.(BUT....there was also that whole, cross-country move into the in-law's place weeks after his birth that MAY have played a part in that







)

Honestly, a part of me wishes that I had given more consideration to NOT having one. It's not a huge regret or anything, and I might have come to the same decision, given my low pain thresh hold, but I wish I had at least done more learning before I decided.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
The site where the epi was inserted ACHED for almost a year after DD was born via c/s.







I'd easily trade few hours of intense pain for that!









I've never had an epi - two spinals, but for c-sections, not labour, so they were quite short term. I don't think I've had any negative effects (but have been in so much generalized pain that it's hard to say for sure).

However, my sister had an epi in her first labour. She was still having intermittent back pain in a certain spot near the injection site for months - maybe years.


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## mrs*kewpie*pie (Mar 1, 2009)

i think in looking at wether its bad for baby or bad for mom you've got to remeber that mom and baby are one unit....so if its bad for mom, its probably bad for baby too

thats one thing i've really gotte from the reading i've been doing lately about birth, especially as it rrelates to the midwifery model of care.....with the medicalization of birth you tend to get the mom and baby separated into two different (and often somewhat adversarial) patients

as to specifics in regards to the original q

form this article by sara buckley

http://www.birthinternational.com/articles/sarah02.html

_"There is a noticeable lack of research and information about the effects of epidurals on babies24. Drugs used in epidurals can reach levels at least as high as those in the mother25, and because of the baby's immature liver, these drugs take a long time- sometimes days- to be cleared from the baby's body26"

"Several studies have found subtle but definite changes in the behaviour of newborn babies after epidural36 37 38 with one study showing that behavioural abnormalities persisted for at least six weeks39. Other studies have shown that, after an epidural, mothers spent less time with their newborn babies40, and described their babies at one month as more difficult to care for41."_
the article also mentions possible breastfeeding dificulties but since tahts been pretty well covered here i didn't quote that

and heres a good overview of recent research with lots of links to the original studies

http://www.omninerd.com/articles/Pro...ecent_Research


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## mamasneedlove (Mar 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrs*kewpie*pie* 
i think in looking at wether its bad for baby or bad for mom you've got to remeber that mom and baby are one unit....so if its bad for mom, its probably bad for baby too









:

Also, three things I think I didn't see mentioned (could be wrong), that I've seen happen:

1 - I don't know how often this happens, but certainly I've seen it more than once: the epidural just doesn't work on one side and they have to go back in to fix it. Meanwhile, mom is not only having contractions but also tied down to the bed and can't move at all to alleviate her pain. This really, really sucks.

2 - At the pushing stage, they turn down the epidural so you can push. Then, mom hasn't built up any level of 'comfort' with her contractions, and they surprise her, and she hasn't been using any techniques to cope (because she didn't really need them) so she's totally unprepared and pushing is excruciating and stalled... snowballing of interventions.

3 - Mom thinks the epidural is her "backup" in case natural techniques don't work, so doesn't really prepare for birth with breathing and perineal massage and talking to other moms, etc., so she's unprepared... just the opportunity to have one in this case undermines natural birth sometimes, IMO.

Jen


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## tndixiemom (Jul 16, 2007)

I had no problems from mine. That was almost 6 years ago. I will be getting a second one in a few weeks.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasneedlove* 
2 - At the pushing stage, they turn down the epidural so you can push. Then, mom hasn't built up any level of 'comfort' with her contractions, and they surprise her, and she hasn't been using any techniques to cope (because she didn't really need them) so she's totally unprepared and pushing is excruciating and stalled... snowballing of interventions.

Oh, yeah - I remember my sister complaining about that. She was horrified when the epidural was turned down, and told me later that she wished she hadn't had it, because at least she could have become accustomed to it.

I will say that I still can't imagine getting one for the pain...but I did find myself understanding getting one for exhaustion, after labouring for a long time with Aaron. I didn't mind the pain, in and of itself...but I did mind that it kept me awake...


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## PaigeC (Nov 25, 2008)

I think it is important to know why you don't want an epidural. Us crunchy folks just say no. I did but my midwife challenged me to explain why I didn't want an epidural and the answers (which I actually wrote down to read while I was in labor) really helped me decide to go ahead and have the epidural.

My original reason would have just been "it isn't natural" but with prompting I realized that my reasons were:

1. I wanted the baby to be alert enough to have a good bf experience within the first hour.
2. I wanted to be lucid and in control during the pushing phase. I didn't want to not feel what was happening and I didn't want my emotions to be numbed by the drugs.
3. Girl Power!!!

So, with these reasons in hand this is what happened. My water broke and I waited 24 hours to contact my midwife but told her it had happened that morning. (I don't recommend this but I felt that the 24 hour limit is silly - please do your own research before deciding to tell a fib to your provider!). I never did have contractions start so the started pit. The contractions were awful! I had "butt" labor - so besides the pain in my abdomen that I was managing well each contractions brought spasms in my colon. I was using hypnosis, birth ball, massage, etc. By the time I hit 6 cm I was curled up on the bathroom floor moaning, shaking, sweating, shivering. I couldn't open my eyes. I felt weak.

Anyways the point is I realized I wasn't going to be lucid or empowered at all. I decided to get the epidural and I'm so glad I did! I got 2 1/2 hours of sleep and when I woke up she was crowning! For real, on her own. I swear if I had kept sleeping she would have birthed herself! I felt my contractions and pushed at my own pace (I hate that 1,2,3...10 crap) for 25 minutes and caught my own daughter! She breastfed like a champ from day one.

I believe the only reason I was able to make this decision without regret is the time I put into my reasons for not wanting an epidural.

Other things I attribute to my epidural success - I had a midwife and a doula, I gave birth at a birthing center and not a big hospital so it was very mother centered. I had a variety of natural pain management techniques at my disposal. I got to talk to my midwife and the anesthesiologist about wanting to be able to feel myself push and all that so I felt like I got a good epidural experience.

Epidurals can lead to cascading interventions - but sometimes the interventions come first (I had gestational diabetes too) and you have to be able to roll with the punches so to speak.

I hope that my next birth will be intervention free and all natural but I'll listen to my body.


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## KittyDanger (Jan 27, 2009)

My epi only worked until...about 30 seconds after I stopped vomiting because of it.

They were amazed that I didn't need pitocin with the epi...that was because I could still feel everything.

When the midwife tried to take it out of my back it got stuck







and they had to call the anesthesiologist to come and try to get it out.

My back hurt for a month or two, sort of like premenstrul back pain.

I caved and got one bc my blood pressure shot up when I was in labor and I had to stay in bed hooked up to monitors, but I am glad now that it didn't work bc I know I can do it.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

No epi for me. That whole needle near my spine thing was enough to scare me off for good. Birth only lasts a day or less for most of us. I can stand anything for that long and you get a very alert and healthy baby at the end.


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## tndixiemom (Jul 16, 2007)

When I got my epi, I went from 4 to 10 cm in 4 hours. It took 20 to get from 2 to 4. I felt better after I got it and I felt like for the first time, I could actually enjoy it.

BTW, I also got a healthy, alert baby.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
No epi for me. That whole needle near my spine thing was enough to scare me off for good.









:
I've had two c-sections under spinal, and most people think I'm nuts, because I actually preferred the emergency ones under general. I hate being numb. I hate having a needle put in my spine. I'm currently freaking out about c-section number five, and the fear is comprised about equally of fear of needle in spine, fear of surgery itself, and fear of the recovery process. I'm not even needle-phobic - never blinked at getting vaxes, having blood draws, or getting IVs - I just hate knowing one is being put in my spine.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Yeah, I'm not normally afraid of needles. But my spine? Might as well ask me to put a needle in my heart!! Creeps me out.


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## super mamabug (Oct 29, 2006)

I think the key is to stop thinking about it as side-effect free, like we are told. I don't think anyone here thinks epidurals are bad, or no one should get them. Some women have great success with them. The problem is the people who think birth is impossible without them and the caregivers who try to convince us that there are no problems associated with them.

For me having had one birth with and one without epidural I would never have one again. DS was crooked a bit his head was sideways. Everything inside of me was telling me to stand up and squat and I couldn't. Not only was this incredibly frustrating but it led to 3 extremely painful hours of pushing. My poor son was born with a huge bruise/scab on the side of his head from pushing against my pubic bone and I felt it for weeks. Because of that bruise he refused to nurse out of my right side for weeks. My supply never caught up on that side. I was blessed to have enough milk on the left to support him.
I also had the temp spike, BP changes etc. that are typical of epidural. The placement was also extremely painful.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *super mamabug* 
The problem is the people who think birth is impossible without them and the caregivers who try to convince us that there are no problems associated with them.










EXACTLY!









When you hear people say, "Natural birth makes as much sense as natural dentistry" you know full well that the average American thinks epis are risk-free and birth without them is insane.

Count me as another lady who has no problems with needles, but doesn't want something in my spine.

Personally, "It's natural" never factored into my decision for no-epi. Lots of things are "natural" & horrible for us (i.e. poison ivy, tsunamis, cancer, mosquitos carrying malaria etc.) Similarly, lots of things are totally _not_ natural, but I embrace... like the internet & keyboard I'm typing on.







I'm more than happy to fully utilize modern medicine when appropriate - which is when _benefits outweigh risks._

I also didn't want to avoid an epidural because of the effects on the baby. Everything I've read seems like the effects are very minimal & risks to baby are _very_ slight. So that really didn't weigh into my decision, personally.

But I broke down my reasons for no-epi as follows:
1. I don't want to miss out on my birth. I want to experience it - not feel like an inert object from which a baby is extracted. Also don't want to feel out of control of my own body - that idea is horrifying to me.

2. Don't want to deal with the risks of the epi itself (spinal headache that can last MONTH?







No thanks!

3. Cascade of interventions the epi can lead to... I've heard it can double your risks of CS and quadruple your risk of needing an instrumental delivery - and I think they often do an episiotomy with a vacuum delivery (at least they did for my SIL) and episiotomy can lead to like a 28-fold increase in the risk of a 4th degree tear! Once again, I say, no thanks!


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## kltroy (Sep 30, 2006)

I think Meg Boz said it well. As one of my OB friends says, "there's no prize for doing your birth drug-free - there is no medical reason that a mom shouldn't get an epidural if she decides she wants one". Yes, this is true that from a strictly medical point of view they are not high risk and for many people that means that the benefits (no pain, and from a doc's point of view no patient who is unable to deal with labor in a non-hysterical way) outweigh the risks (outlined multiple times in previous posts).

I think of it like running a marathon, though. For ME personally, I wanted to know that my body IS that strong and that I could do it. I wanted to feel everything. I wanted to have the experience. I DID have a way to deal with labor, and I did not want anyone taking that experience for me. In other words, for me, the risks did NOT outweigh the benefits, which I considered negligible at best.


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## angelapittman (Mar 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kltroy* 
I think of it like running a marathon, though. For ME personally, I wanted to know that my body IS that strong and that I could do it. I wanted to feel everything. I wanted to have the experience. I DID have a way to deal with labor, and I did not want anyone taking that experience for me. In other words, for me, the risks did NOT outweigh the benefits, which I considered negligible at best.

Same here. My first baby, I had an epidural because I was basically told natural birth is impossible, and you don't win anything for doing it, so why even try?... I feel like I missed out somewhat by not going through it all and feeling it all. I did it naturally at home with my second one and absolutely LOVED it. Maybe I'm weird, but I liked going through it and experiencing every part of it. I can't wait until I can experience labor and giving birth again.


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## AlwaysByMySide (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasneedlove* 
2 - At the pushing stage, they turn down the epidural so you can push. Then, mom hasn't built up any level of 'comfort' with her contractions, and they surprise her, and she hasn't been using any techniques to cope (because she didn't really need them) so she's totally unprepared and pushing is excruciating and stalled... snowballing of interventions.

Three births...I've never had my epidural turned down for pushing. In fact, the only time I ever felt contractions was with my second child, and that was because we were waiting for the epidural to be ordered.

With my first, I pushed for 15 minutes. My second pushed her own way out - I did not push at all. My third came out with two pushes. With the second and third, I did not feel a thing. The first, I felt the "ring of fire", but that's pretty much it.


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## dancindoula (Jun 20, 2005)

Megmoz put it beautifully. It's not that epidurals are all bad all the time, but that they are far from being risk-free and _care_ providers need to be more honest about the real risks of relying on them.

You know, not a single one of my doula clients who has had an epidural has come away satisfied with the results (and I promise it's THEIR opinion, not me projecting on them). Every one has had some problem or other and I've yet to see one work as flawlessly as they are promised to do by the eager nurses and docs cheering moms on toward numb births.

One client realised her biggest regret was not having been able to actually feel her daughter emerging from her body at all - they kept telling her "oh you'll still feel pressure", but that wasn't true as she went totally numb from the waist down and it lasted for hours after her birth.

Another client had the creeping numbness effect where the meds anesthetize areas above as well as below the waist so she felt like someone was sitting on her chest.

Another only could feel the effects on whatever body part was lowest, so if she was on her left side then her left hip was numb but nowhere else, same if she turned on her other side or her back, but she never got the full effect.

Another the anesthesiologist jabbed the needle in her back FOUR TIMES and all four times punctured a vein but realised before releasing the meds into her _blood stream._ Four times. Finally he gave up and she went without.

I'm actually still waiting to witness the epidural-savior-of-birthing-womankind scenario to play out in front of me. So far the moms I've worked with have come away saying it wasn't worth it and they would rather do without next time.


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## dylan1984 (Feb 18, 2009)

Just wanted to add I had nubain and it isn't in the same playing field as an epidural. It was like, hmmm, I felt high on crack and super good for a couple minutes and didn't care that I was in pain - just felt all goofy and speedy and then I was back in my world of hurt. Don't know if that is just my experience, but it def wasn't something I could've used to get through labor.

BTW I was induced, after about 3 hrs couldn't handle, got the nubain as a stop gap until the anesthesiologist got there, then got epidural. No side effects from epi as far as long term pain or any headaches, but hated being in bed and numb, hard time nursing, doped up feeling after delivery, 3rd degree tear. Will be homebirthing this time around.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Here are some _Mothering_ articles that discuss epidurals:

Hidden Risks of Epidurals

Obstetrical Interventions

Epidural Epidemic

Hormonal Blueprint for Labor


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## dlm194 (Mar 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dancindoula* 
Another client had the creeping numbness effect where the meds anesthetize areas above as well as below the waist so she felt like someone was sitting on her chest.

That happened to me after they adjusted the epidural for my c-section. I seriously could not feel myself breathing and began panicking on the table. It was like I was wrapped in the worlds tighest bear hug and couldn't get any oxygen into my lungs. I tried telling my medwife what was happening but she just told me that my pulse-ox was 99. I honestly believed I was going to die at that point. I was more terrified of an epidural for another c-section than I was of an actual repeat c-section (which, thankfully, I didn't need!).


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

I am all for the option for medical pain relief when nothing else works. But, there are side effects and risks. It seems like you want information, more than anecdotal experiences. If so, here are some articles. Pubmed has lots of others. I would also encourage you to read www.pushedbirth.com and The Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth.

*The effect of epidural analgesia on labor progress and outcome in nulliparous women.*

Quote:

Epidural analgesia in nulliparous parturients increases the risk for labor dystocia and accordingly is an independent risk factor for vacuum extraction. Nevertheless, it does not pose an independent risk for cesarean delivery.
(My comment: An epidural alone may not increase the risk of c-section, but when combined with induction or augmentation with Pitocin research shows it sure does.)

*Epidural analgesia in labor: an evaluation of risks and benefits.*

Quote:

longer labor, more operative intervention, and increases in cost

*
Discontinuation of epidural analgesia late in labour for reducing the adverse delivery outcomes associated with epidural analgesia*.

Quote:

There is insufficient evidence to support the hypothesis that discontinuing epidural analgesia late in labour reduces the rate of instrumental delivery. There is evidence that it increases the rate of inadequate pain relief in the second stage of labour. The practice of discontinuing epidurals is widespread and the size of the reduction in instrumental delivery rate could be clinically important.
(My quick synopsis: Here is the logic. Some OB's turn down the epi during pushing so women can feel the urge to push. The problem is it hurts worse than it would if all the labor/love hormones were in sync. Women feel all the pain all of a sudden. Pain = no labor/stalled labor/painful labor/tension. Tension = ineffective pushing and instrument delivery. Forceps and vac assisted delivery = episiotomy. Episiotomy = sucks for you.)

*
Epidural versus non-epidural or no analgesia in labour.*

Quote:

women who use this form of pain relief are at increased risk of having an instrumental delivery

You can also check out this article, The Epidural Express:
Real Reasons Not to Jump On Board.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

with my second child, i had an emergency homebirth transfer to hospital situation-i was out of my mind in agony by the time i got there. u bet i got the epidural. it did work, amazingly well. i had a natural, no drug delivery with my first, and well remember how that felt, so to have the crazy, 10cm, transitional, sunny side up baby contrax just *stop*, well, it was so freakish. a huge relief, too.

i wound up being totally knocked out for a section, but that's nothing to do with the epidural.

it didnt cause my son any damage, and i've had no ill effects from it myself, but it sure was nothing like birthing my dd. he was definitely not wide-open awake like my dd, and that devastated and terrified me. his eyes were jumpy, and unfocused for the first hours







that couldve been from the GA also. don't know. anyway, he perked up and woke up just fine in several hrs. he is now 14 months old, talking, running, and hilariously expressive. no problems.

i think it's cool to have experienced both sides of birth, and i would not judge any mama who opted to have the epidural. i would still encourage mamas to learn about the birth process, and to at least try to go it drug free. the feelings you feel after a natural birth, the love, the bonding, the rush. there are no words to describe the POWER you feel, either. dd's birth is still my touchstone of courage, and i will always remember it and feel so proud of myself.

it's very sad to me that so many women never get to feel those things. i feel like it's a very primal part of our womanhood that's being taken from us, our birthing power. i don't judge a mama for opting to get an epidural, not at all, but i do wish that HCP were not so fast to push them, and act like they are super safe and effective all the time.


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## tndixiemom (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:

the feelings you feel after a natural birth, the love, the bonding, the rush. there are no words to describe the POWER you feel, either.

Quote:

it's very sad to me that so many women never get to feel those things.
You assume that women who have a medicated birth don't feel those things. That is simply not true. You may not have felt them, but that doesn't mean that the majority of women don't. I know that I felt amazing after my birth. I couldn't stop looking at my baby and thinking I did that. My body made this and then brought it into the world. Just because there was pain medicine involved did not change the emotions. Look, I am all for people choosing to birth the way they want and that all of the risks should be evaluated, but what I don't like and will never agree with is the assumption that a medicated birth can not be as spiritual and as rewarding as a non-medicated one. It is insulting and plays down those of who had wonderful medicated births that we are very happy with by saying that it would have been better if we just would have done it the way you would have done it.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

I actually said yes to get one with DS, because I had no idea that I was already in transition when I arrived at the hospital. They wanted to give me IV fluids for an hour first, and put a urinary catheter in me. By the time that hour was up, I was at 10 cm and ready to push! They took the catheter out for me to push, then put it back IN after he was born because I had to have mag sulfate (preeclampsia) and they needed to monitor my urine output. I am telling you that catheter going in and out hurt worse than contractions! So for me, I would not want one with any future births because of not wanting a big needle in my spine, not wanting a catheter, and because I know already that I have FAST (1 hour) transitions where I go from 4-10cm so I CAN handle it (done it twice!) besides the risks of spinal headache, numbness, pain at injection site, lethargy in baby, difficulties with nursing, etc.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Everyone told me I'd "never be able to do it" without an epidural.

Well- nothing could be further from the truth!!! I didn't even know I was really in labor until the very end when I was probably 8 or 9 cm!!

I never laid down, never had an IV, never got my cervix checked, never felt restricted, and I never even THOUGHT about asking for drugs. Like not even in the back of my mind!









I loved the power I felt, too, and I loved that I could birth in any position. I loved having no needles to scare me (I am terrified of needles) and I loved not being checked or told to push... I just did what I needed/wanted.

Now, I know many can and do have positive medicated births- but I am happy with my choice and I respect others' too.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tndixiemom* 
Look, I am all for people choosing to birth the way they want and that all of the risks should be evaluated, but what I don't like and will never agree with is the assumption that a medicated birth can not be as spiritual and as rewarding as a non-medicated one. It is insulting and plays down those of who had wonderful medicated births that we are very happy with by saying that it would have been better if we just would have done it the way you would have done it.

I hear what you're saying. But since the PP has had both a nonmedicated and medicated birth, I think her opinion is more valid than someone who's either had all non-medicated or all medicated, kwim?


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## jennyfah (Jul 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
I hear what you're saying. But since the PP has had both a nonmedicated and medicated birth, I think her opinion is more valid than someone who's either had all non-medicated or all medicated, kwim?









:

But I am sure there is also a difference between a planned/desired mediated birth and one that is not wanted. If I had been planning a medicated birth with my first baby I probably would not have been traumatized the way I was and would feel very differently about the whole experience.

Peace,
Jen


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
But since the PP has had both a nonmedicated and medicated birth, I think her opinion is more valid than someone who's either had all non-medicated or all medicated, kwim?

Why should any one person's opinion be more valid than another? Just because one poster (the person you were refering to - sorry cannot remember the user name) felt more empowered and spiritual after her unmedicated birth does not mean that that will be true for all women and their birthing experiences. Her having experienced birth from both medicated and unmedicated perspectives also only makes her opinion more valid for herself as no two women will experience birth in the same way.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Why should any one person's opinion be more valid than another?

Maybe valid isn't the right word...but maybe more fair? More balanced? How can someone who has only had medicated delivery know how she might or might not feel if she had it unmedicated?


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
Maybe valid isn't the right word...but maybe more fair? More balanced? How can someone who has only had medicated delivery know how she might or might not feel if she had it unmedicated?

But an opinion is just that - one person's experience. No one's opinion can be more right or more balanced than another person's because they are just opinions. Also, no one can tell another mom what she will/will not feel during and after birth based on the presence or absence of medication in their body.

She was responding to the following statements:

Quote:

the feelings you feel after a natural birth, the love, the bonding, the rush. there are no words to describe the POWER you feel, either.

Quote:

it's very sad to me that so many women never get to feel those things.
And (I believe) what she was saying was that just because she had a medicated birth does not mean that she didn't feel the same things that the unmedicated mom did.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Erin** 
it's very sad to me that so many women never get to feel those things. i feel like it's a very primal part of our womanhood that's being taken from us, our birthing power. i don't judge a mama for opting to get an epidural, not at all, but i do wish that HCP were not so fast to push them, and act like they are super safe and effective all the time.

I agree that it's sad that birth is now "high-tech" "medicalized" and, as Dr. Marsden Wagner puts it "not women-centered."

The way birth in America is _managed_ is sickening to me. It shouldn't even be "managed" at all -it should just be subtely monitored/observed & allowed to progress naturally - on it's own time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tndixiemom* 
You assume that women who have a medicated birth don't feel those things. That is simply not true.

Well, I can't speak for Erin, who originally said it, but I DO know that the average American birth is NOT empowering. It's just not. Period. It's degrading & horrible. Now that is not to say that it's not possible for a woman to have a medicated birth that IS empowering... but the fact of the matter simply is that it is rare. Heck, empowering hospital birth alone is rare, but _medicated_ & empowering hospital birth? That's gotta be quite rare!


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## AlwaysByMySide (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tndixiemom* 

Quote:

the feelings you feel after a natural birth, the love, the bonding, the rush. there are no words to describe the POWER you feel, either.

Quote:

it's very sad to me that so many women never get to feel those things.
You assume that women who have a medicated birth don't feel those things. That is simply not true. You may not have felt them, but that doesn't mean that the majority of women don't. I know that I felt amazing after my birth. I couldn't stop looking at my baby and thinking I did that. My body made this and then brought it into the world. Just because there was pain medicine involved did not change the emotions. Look, I am all for people choosing to birth the way they want and that all of the risks should be evaluated, but what I don't like and will never agree with is the assumption that a medicated birth can not be as spiritual and as rewarding as a non-medicated one. It is insulting and plays down those of who had wonderful medicated births that we are very happy with by saying that it would have been better if we just would have done it the way you would have done it.

AMEN!!

I had three medicated, induced (gasp!) births, and if I ever have any more, I will happily go the exact same route again. To even begin to imply that women who use pain meds don't feel the same love and bonding that those who go natural feel is preposterous.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Well, I can't speak for Erin, who originally said it, but I DO know that the average American birth is NOT empowering. It's just not. Period. It's degrading & horrible. Now that is not to say that it's not possible for a woman to have a medicated birth that IS empowering... but the fact of the matter simply is that it is rare. Heck, empowering hospital birth alone is rare, but _medicated_ & empowering hospital birth? That's gotta be quite rare!

But that is just your opinion. No one can decide what is empowering for another mom. While you might not be able to comprehend a hospital birth of any kind to be empowering just read some of the birth stories here, there are many moms that have had hospital births, even some that involved medications, that have felt strong and empowered after birth.

You feel that hospital births are horrible and degrading - I strongly disagree as I birthed my 2 girls in a hospital and felt neither. That does not mean my opinion is more valid than yours because I have in fact birthed two babies in a hospital - it just means that we see things differently.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
No one's opinion can be more right or more balanced than another person's because they are just opinions.

Really? Someone who's been on both sides doesn't have a more balanced view of something? I understand that the mom I quoted might have had a glorious, love-filled, spiritual birth, but until she's had an unmedicated birth to compare it to, it's premature to judge a non-medicated birth in comparison. I (obviously) had a medicalized birth and I felt ecstatic upon holding DD and nursed with no problems, and I don't feel at all offended by a mom who's had both deliveries imply that I didn't. She's just stating her opinion too.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
But that is just your opinion. _[That hospital birth is rarely empowering]_

Actually, I don't believe it is "just my opinon." Our "broken" maternity care system (again, quoting Dr. Marsden Wagner) mistreats women. It is because of this mistreatment that I say a _truly_ empowering experience is rare.

Again, some hospitals are much better than others (I switched from a bad to a good one at 24W when I learned the truth.)

And, if a woman gets a healthy baby at the end of the process, she often is happy with her experience. She is also often happy _if she doesn't know any better!!!_ The average American thinks birth is horrible & traumatic & is all too happy to hand over the entire experience to medical experts. She _expects_ the worst anyway. (& I dont' think MDC is representative of "average americans.")

Even if she is happy in the end, I would argue that she was treated poorly and even in a degrading way if she was/ had:

not allowed to drink
cEFM for low risk birth
regular vaginal exams (particularly if she was not medicated!)
ANY procedure without informed consent (that means not just telling her she's about to have a procedure done, but fully informing her of risks & options & ASKING for permission.)
Episiotomy without real, valid cause
coached to 'purple push' - hold her breath beyond the point of comfort (without cause due to fetal distress)
immediate (aka "premature") cord clamping
early separation of mom & baby for no valid reason
subjected to an outright BAN on VBAC
pushed into things for doctor's convenience (i.e pit augmentation, vacuum, or CS just because doc is tired of waiting & wants to go home)
not allowed to move about freely & push in the position of her choice for doc's convenience
otherwise insulted or degraded or criticized for stupid things like the sounds she made (HB MWs apparently even do this - just read a birth story about it yesterday)
These things happen every day in American hospitals & they *are horrible and degrading. PERIOD!*
*That is why I say it is not just my opinion that hospital birth in America is "rarely empowering" to women.*

Incidentally, I _did_ have an empowering, all-natural hospital birth myself! Again, I didn't say it was impossible, only that it was rare.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
She is also often happy _if she doesn't know any better!!!_
<snip>

Even if she is happy in the end, I would argue that she was treated poorly and even in a degrading way if she was/ had:

<snip>
ANY procedure without informed consent (that means not just telling her she's about to have a procedure done, but fully informing her of risks & options & ASKING for permission.)
These things happen every day in American hospitals & they *are horrible and degrading. PERIOD!*

I snipped a lot, because these things together really struck home with me.

I wasn't happy after I was forced to have a c-section with ds1. I wasn't happy at all. However, when I finally - 14 years later - got my records, I was _furious_...and totally disempowered. I didn't _know_ I'd been given a sedative the next day...not only was I not told beforehand, I wasn't told at all. They had me on an IV for antibiotics (which I objected to, and was completely ignored...no I didn't fight back, because I didn't have the energy...but I _did_ say "no"), and slipped other drugs in without telling me. That is degrading...and I didn't even know.

When I had dd, they gave me dicoflenac suppositories to help with pain management. They gave me the first one while I was still under spinal...and I didn't even know until 8 (12?) hours later when it was time for the next one.

When I had ds2, the anesthetist added that morphine crap (duramorph?) to my IV for post-op pain relief...without my knowledge or consent.

I'm going back for my last c-section in less than three months. Despite the fact that I have a good OB, I'm not really fighting that hard, anymore. Losing Aaron psychologically broke me. I fully expect to be emotionally abused and treated like a brainless idiot at the hospital. I'll endure it for the three days, and then I never have to go back. I honestly find the idea of empowering hospital birth completely mind-boggling, and I can't imagine what kind of strength is must require.


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## cileag (Aug 16, 2008)

It's getting kinda stormy in here so I'm reluctant to put my two cents out there, but here I go.

I'm a L and D nurse in a busy urban hospital. We have wonderful CNMs, wonderful OBs, and not so wonderful ones of each as well. I agree that the AVERAGE hospital labor and birth are not particularly empowering. They are moving, exciting, and of course filled with love for most families. However, I do think that in the majority, the system interferes with women's feeling of independence--even if it is willingly given up. And because of that, I wouldn't call them "empowered". Now, obviously, not all experiences are the same and I've been priviliged to be at so many awe-inspiring, incredible births as well--that took place under all sorts of medical intervention (some needed, some per protocol). It definitely happens--I just think the current system with multiple providers, shift work, and assembly line type protocols is set up to make it more difficult instead of being set up to be supportive.

My take on epidurals are that they are not without risk--my biggest concerns are bp drops and contribution to malpositioning and difficulty pushing (all three statistically recognized common side effects), but I think that for some women, it dramatically improves their ability to cope with the pain and the anxiety of childbirth.


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## jennyfah (Jul 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm going back for my last c-section in less than three months. Despite the fact that I have a good OB, I'm not really fighting that hard, anymore. Losing Aaron psychologically broke me. I fully expect to be emotionally abused and treated like a brainless idiot at the hospital. I'll endure it for the three days, and then I never have to go back. I honestly find the idea of empowering hospital birth completely mind-boggling, and I can't imagine what kind of strength is must require.

Oh, mama. I am so sorry.









This brought me to tears.

Best wishes to you.


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## snowmom5 (May 8, 2008)

hmmm... lots of food for thought here.

FWIW, I'll offer my experiences as yet another example of the possibilities - I've had a c-section, had two epidural vbacs, one unmedicated vbac. All in hospitals. I was never separated from my babies, not even after the section (breech singleton), except for my premie twins who went to the nicu for a few weeks (that was vbac #1). Two different hospitals in different states.

On the epidural front: in my case, the epidural made for a far more peaceful birth than unmedicated. Quiet, calm, happy. With my unmedicated birth, which was a short, fast, intense labor with no break in the pain between contractions, and complete with the fetal ejection reflex a.k.a. freight train, I was physically in shock afterward. My arms were shaking. The OB wanted to put the baby on my chest but I had to say no, "I can't" because literally I could not lift my arms, and this is what I was thinking in my mind: "Get that thing away from me!!" That's a horrible thing to say, even in your head. That aside, I was plenty happy with the environment, quiet and dark in the middle of the night, no one bothered me, no one told me when to push, or interfered in any way.

I guess I can say that in my experience, the unmedicated birth was empowering in a ran-a-marathon, climbed-a-mountain sort of way, briefly anyway. Kinda like, give me my bananas and my race medal, can I go home now (as in, could I live a full, whole life as a woman without having done an unmedicated birth? *yes*). The hit-by-a-truck feeling was a bit more pronounced after the unmedicated birth than the epidural one. The recoveries were similar. One thing that makes it difficult to compare recoveries is that the more children I have, the more painful the cramping during the nursing - the most recent time, after the unmedicated birth, the cramping during our first nursing session was so fierce it was quite a lot like labor all over again and I actually had to stop.

If I have a choice this time around, I'll choose epidural. I'm assuming a low probability of that happening though, due to a fast labor and anticoagulants on board, so assuming I go unmedicated again, I'll probably ask for some pain medication immediatelly following the birth so that I can nurse - I'm guessing the cramping will be even tougher than last time.

(maybe I'm just lucky. I thought it was pretty cool that my old OB actually suggested and recommended that I vbac my twins, but my new OB is even cool-er, if there is such a thing - mother was a midwife, and the OB has personally read "Birthing from Within," which I haven't).


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

I think it is VERY rude for people to assume that a mom who has had a medicated birth does not feel the rush, love, empowerment, after their child's birth. I think any mom who has experienced birth would say that that assumption is complete B.S. It is UGLY and MEAN to make assumptions about anyone else's birth.

I think people are forgetting that a hospital birth is what some women want and are completely fine with. It is a service that a mom pays for...it is a business. Why degrade the hopitals is it's something you choose??!!! Choose a home birth if you don't agree. It's unfair to lump all hospitals and care providers into one group.
If a mom does not have the sense to educate herself about the birth she wants and is fine with the mainstream hospital birth then god bless her.
I get just as angered seeing women on "bringing home baby" "a baby story" who go to the hopital and lay in the bed on their back and expect to dilate, but I just write it off as something that I would not choose to do.

Modern medicine is modern medicine and a lot of the rules/treatments/decisions are made because of hospital policy....policy that is dictated by the hospital and the insurance companies. Rules and policies are based on worst case scenario and to be as "sue proof" as possible. Working as a social worker in a bigger city, our "big" hospital has mom's come in all the time high on crack, or any substance for that matter ready to give birth, or women who didn't even know they were pregnant, or women who have tried to self abort. I mean the numbers are staggering. There is just no way to have seperate rules for seperate circumstances....a hospital and ALL of it's practicing doctors have standard operating procedures, that for insurance reasons they cannot stray from. People ASSUME that ALL women are equal when it comes to birth (as crappy as that sounds). How in the world is a woman who has gotten high on meth, prostituted herself all day and then goes into labor being degraded by having to adhere to the mainstream rules. If she has not given a crap about her baby this far along...why is the hospital the bad guy when it comes to her birth. (true story here by the way...was in the news). No amount of changing our broken maternity system is going to fix this situation. When policy makers write policy for the safety/security of their business...they write it for worst case scenarios like this.

A PERFECT example of hospital policy so that they "sue proof" is a local doctor in my area who was as adament about not preforming C/S's as we are. He was very natural minded. About 2 years ago he was assisting with a birth and the baby had some decels in heart rate. Standard Operating Procedures, say, "okay time for emergency C/S... baby might die







". But he knew that this was a normal part of some birthing processes and saw nothing that would signify a danger to mom or baby. He encouraged the mom to continue...gave her the option of C/S but advised that he felt there was more risk in a C/S. Baby was found to have CP 7 months later, and the doctor was blaimed!!! (even though it could not be directly proven that the CP was caused by not doing an emergency C/S and that CP can often be caused in utero). He was sued...the hopital was sued....etc, etc. People are wrong in assuming that decisions are based on the Dr's convience.
A lot of OBs go into business because they do have a genuine love of pregnancy and birth. BUT if they want to do what they love, they have to abide by the rules and regulations...EVEN if they don't agree.

Anywhoo, this is my grumpy pregnancy rant. I had a hospital birth and LOVED it!!! I had to have pitocin for labor that wouldn't start after PROM at 35 weeks(which knowing then what I know know I wouldn't have agreed to). Epidural followed pitocin because there was no way to go from 0 to 10 contractions out of no where without me feeling like I was going to panic and die. I won't be having an epi this time but I am not expecting this birth to be ANY MORE BEAUTIFUL than DD's birth.
I felt like a million bucks after birth...was able to feel to push...no one counted for me (the nurse even told my DH to stop counting for me)....and I was up and walking 15 to 30 minutes after birth and showered an hour later. Enjoyed buffalo wild wings and a large coke an hour after that







.

I love birth...I would do it everyday if i could relive DD's birth. My epi is insignificant in what a beautiful experience it was.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
I think it is VERY rude for people to assume that a mom who has had a medicated birth does not feel the rush, love, empowerment, after their child's birth. I think any mom who has experienced birth would say that that assumption is complete B.S. It is UGLY and MEAN to make assumptions about anyone else's birth.

I think people are forgetting that a hospital birth is what some women want and are completely fine with. It is a service that a mom pays for...it is a business. Why degrade the hopitals is it's something you choose??!!! Choose a home birth if you don't agree. It's unfair to lump all hospitals and care providers into one group.
If a mom does not have the sense to educate herself about the birth she wants and is fine with the mainstream hospital birth then god bless her.
I get just as angered seeing women on "bringing home baby" "a baby story" who go to the hopital and lay in the bed on their back and expect to dilate, but I just write it off as something that I would not choose to do.

Modern medicine is modern medicine and a lot of the rules/treatments/decisions are made because of hospital policy....policy that is dictated by the hospital and the insurance companies. Rules and policies are based on worst case scenario and to be as "sue proof" as possible. Working as a social worker in a bigger city, our "big" hospital has mom's come in all the time high on crack, or any substance for that matter ready to give birth, or women who didn't even know they were pregnant, or women who have tried to self abort. I mean the numbers are staggering. There is just no way to have seperate rules for seperate circumstances....a hospital and ALL of it's practicing doctors have standard operating procedures, that for insurance reasons they cannot stray from. People ASSUME that ALL women are equal when it comes to birth (as crappy as that sounds). How in the world is a woman who has gotten high on meth, prostituted herself all day and then goes into labor being degraded by having to adhere to the mainstream rules. If she has not given a crap about her baby this far along...why is the hospital the bad guy when it comes to her birth. (true story here by the way...was in the news). No amount of changing our broken maternity system is going to fix this situation. When policy makers write policy for the safety/security of their business...they write it for worst case scenarios like this.

A PERFECT example of hospital policy so that they "sue proof" is a local doctor in my area who was as adament about not preforming C/S's as we are. He was very natural minded. About 2 years ago he was assisting with a birth and the baby had some decels in heart rate. Standard Operating Procedures, say, "okay time for emergency C/S... baby might die







". But he knew that this was a normal part of some birthing processes and saw nothing that would signify a danger to mom or baby. He encouraged the mom to continue...gave her the option of C/S but advised that he felt there was more risk in a C/S. Baby was found to have CP 7 months later, and the doctor was blaimed!!! (even though it could not be directly proven that the CP was caused by not doing an emergency C/S and that CP can often be caused in utero). He was sued...the hopital was sued....etc, etc. People are wrong in assuming that decisions are based on the Dr's convience.
A lot of OBs go into business because they do have a genuine love of pregnancy and birth. BUT if they want to do what they love, they have to abide by the rules and regulations...EVEN if they don't agree.

Anywhoo, this is my grumpy pregnancy rant. I had a hospital birth and LOVED it!!! I had to have pitocin for labor that wouldn't start after PROM at 35 weeks(which knowing then what I know know I wouldn't have agreed to). Epidural followed pitocin because there was no way to go from 0 to 10 contractions out of no where without me feeling like I was going to panic and die. I won't be having an epi this time but I am not expecting this birth to be ANY MORE BEAUTIFUL than DD's birth.
I felt like a million bucks after birth...was able to feel to push...no one counted for me (the nurse even told my DH to stop counting for me)....and I was up and walking 15 to 30 minutes after birth and showered an hour later. Enjoyed buffalo wild wings and a large coke an hour after that







.

I love birth...I would do it everyday if i could relive DD's birth. My epi is insignificant in what a beautiful experience it was.


You said it much better than I did.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
A lot of OBs go into business because they do have a genuine love of pregnancy and birth.

Really? They hide it well. I think they go into OB, because they either love surgery or they love the feeling of giving birth, even if they're men. I've seen quotes from OB's mouths about how great it would be to work in a 100% c-section hospital, so they wouldn't have to worry about odd hours...yeah - real love of pregnancy and birth there. I've seen OBs talk about how it's always the woman actually giving birth...except during a c-section.

Quote:

BUT if they want to do what they love, they have to abide by the rules and regulations...EVEN if they don't agree.
Do you even see what you just typed? If _they_ want to do what _they_ love, they have to follow the rules and regulations. So, you're basically saying that doing what they love means the woman doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter how badly she is treated, as long as _they_ get to do what _they_ love. If the rules and regulations are abusive of the woman in labour, that's okay, because _they_ are doing what _they_ love. You actually just reaffirmed every negative thing I've learned about OBs over the years.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
...mom's come in all the time high on crack,....There is just no way to have seperate rules for seperate circumstances....a hospital and ALL of it's practicing doctors have standard operating procedures, that for insurance reasons they cannot stray from.

<snip>
a woman who has gotten high on meth, prostituted herself all day ...When policy makers write policy for the safety/security of their business...they write it for worst case scenarios like this.










Your post has made me kinda sick. Are you really saying that:
1. There is "no way" for hospitals to have "separate rules for separate cirmustances" - in other words, they must treat all women as if they are sick & irresponsible?
2. The must expect _every_ birthing woman is as bad as a "worst case scenario" & thus treat them all the same - treat them all as if they were that worse case scenario?

If I have indeed understood you correctly (and please disregard if I have misunderstood) those are sickening statements. Sickening & horrifying.

What if you went to your dentist & he said, "Well, everyone I've seen lately has a cavity, so I'm going to drill & fill holes in your teeth anyway, just in case?"
Or you just had some anxiety issues to work through and went to a psychologist who said, "i don't think you're depressed & you don't require medication, but the majority of my patients do need it, so I'm going to put you on an anti-depressant."

Seriuosly?! How is that any different??!?!
*Performing medical procedures on every patient even if they are not necessary is unethical. To treat every patient the same & not administer procedures ONLY as needed is an atrocity.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
...People are wrong in assuming that decisions are based on the Dr's convience.

No, we're not wrong in "assuming" that. It's statistically proven that the CS rate - even the "emergency" CS rate - goes UP approaching dinner time, and getting late in teh evening like before midnight. You really mean to tell me that docs feel there is a higher rate of being sued if they wait until 3 AM to do the CS? I don't think so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
A lot of OBs go into business because they do have a genuine love of pregnancy and birth. BUT if they want to do what they love, they have to abide by the rules and regulations...EVEN if they don't agree.

Wrong. Very often, docs are free to deviate from hospital policy. Even the nurses will tell you that - "Well, it's hopsital policy that XYZ, but if your doc says you can deviate, that's fine."

Anyone who doesn't think that hospital birth in America is, for the most part, negative to women is sorely in need of some education.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
Modern medicine is modern medicine and a lot of the rules/treatments/decisions are made because of hospital policy....policy that is dictated by the hospital and the insurance companies. Rules and policies are based on worst case scenario and to be as "sue proof" as possible. Working as a social worker in a bigger city, our "big" hospital has mom's come in all the time high on crack, or any substance for that matter ready to give birth, or women who didn't even know they were pregnant, or women who have tried to self abort. I mean the numbers are staggering. There is just no way to have seperate rules for seperate circumstances....a hospital and ALL of it's practicing doctors have standard operating procedures, that for insurance reasons they cannot stray from. People ASSUME that ALL women are equal when it comes to birth (as crappy as that sounds). How in the world is a woman who has gotten high on meth, prostituted herself all day and then goes into labor being degraded by having to adhere to the mainstream rules. If she has not given a crap about her baby this far along...why is the hospital the bad guy when it comes to her birth. (true story here by the way...was in the news). No amount of changing our broken maternity system is going to fix this situation. When policy makers write policy for the safety/security of their business...they write it for worst case scenarios like this.

So, how do women who are addicted to hard drugs, or have had no prenatal "care" or who have tried to self-abort explain giving people medication without their consent? How do these things explain performing a c-section on someone who says "no"? How do these things account for putting a sleeping pill in a woman's mouth when she's still completely foggy from a general anesthetic (foggy, as in "didn't remember she'd had a baby") and unable to refuse it? How do these things account for snapping at a woman to "hurry up" when she's exhausting herself trying to _roll over_ on the bed, so that she can feed her baby? How do these things explain a "lactation consultant" grabbing a woman's breast without permission, in order to interfere with breastfeeding? Would any of those actions actually accomplish something positive for a mother with a crack addiction?

The problems in the hospital go way beyond policy on performing surgery. They're equally rooted (maybe more so) in the assumption that the patient has no say, because the doctor - or nurse - is the expert.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

Do you even see what you just typed? If _they_ want to do what _they_ love, they have to follow the rules and regulations. So, you're basically saying that doing what they love means the woman doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter how badly she is treated, as long as _they_ get to do what _they_ love. If the rules and regulations are abusive of the woman in labour, that's okay, because _they_ are doing what _they_ love. You actually just reaffirmed every negative thing I've learned about OBs over the years.

Not every woman under an OBs care is mistreated....It's rediculous to assume that all OBs are wonderful and care as much about birth as we do BUT it's equally as rediculous to assume that they are all out to abuse women during labor.

If they want to work as an OB in the hospital then they have to follow hospital policy...no matter how they may personally feel. It's just like me, as a social worker, WANTING desperately to take one of my client's teenagers for the night so they can each cool down...knowing THAT would be best for both....BUT NOT BEING ABLE TO because of City policy. I would be fired and god forbid, my dog bite the teen and he and his family then turns around and sues me and the city. Different rules can't be made for different situations on a "business" level. It would be one hell of a liability. It's not that I agree with this practice....I just understand why.

There are starting to be more and more doctors, and specifically OBs opening up private practices all over the place so they don't have to follow "hopital/insurance" policy. But the reason why they are not popping up more frequently is because they have an extremely difficult time being insured. Have you not seen all of the national news about the Physican in New York cutting ALL ties with insurance and treating his group of patients for a monthly/ yearly flat rate. His idea is wonderful......he was able to serve so many people who would otherwise not come in because they didn't have insurance. 6 months into this the STATE OF NEW YORK, forced him to stop this business because of the liability. He was forced to have dealings with the insurance company again or the state medical board was going to pull his license.
Placing blaim in the OB is not going to fix anything!!!! It's insurance companies!!


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Epidurals have risks, though slight, and some women generally want them and should have them if they feel they need them. The woman will still be over the moon in love and in awe of her baby.

I think the difference, and the only difference in emotions, of the unmedicated and medicated birth is just the endorphins that come from unmedicated. It is a high and cannot occur with an epidural. So both moms are over the moon but one is over the moon and high as a kite (in a good way).

It is something great. I won't ever say it is not as I found it the most definable moments of my life. However, it isn't needed nor important for the mom and baby to be happy and bonded. I wouldn't want any woman to suffer just for the good chance of getting that high. Every labor is different and while I have handled mine without medications, I can see where they would be wanted if my labors were different.

Hospitals aren't geared for normal birth, a peaceful birth, a great birth but they can happen even though everything is set up so it doesn't happen. I had one unmedicated birth at a hospital, one pit but unmedicated birth at a hospital. I beat the odds but I had a great midwife and great birthing room and knew what I wanted.

I blame the OB's for making birth a medical event which in most cases it just ISN'T and taking away the spiritual event which it IS. That is a disservice to women.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
Not every woman under an OBs care is mistreated....It's rediculous to assume that all OBs are wonderful and care as much about birth as we do BUT it's equally as rediculous to assume that they are all out to abuse women during labor.

If they want to work as an OB in the hospital then they have to follow hospital policy...no matter how they may personally feel. It's just like me, as a social worker, WANTING desperately to take one of my client's teenagers for the night so they can each cool down...knowing THAT would be best for both....BUT NOT BEING ABLE TO because of City policy. I would be fired and god forbid, my dog bite the teen and he and his family then turns around and sues me and the city. Different rules can't be made for different situations on a "business" level. It would be one hell of a liability. It's not that I agree with this practice....I just understand why.

There are starting to be more and more doctors, and specifically OBs opening up private practices all over the place so they don't have to follow "hopital/insurance" policy. But the reason why they are not popping up more frequently is because they have an extremely difficult time being insured. Have you not seen all of the national news about the Physican in New York cutting ALL ties with insurance and treating his group of patients for a monthly/ yearly flat rate. His idea is wonderful......he was able to serve so many people who would otherwise not come in because they didn't have insurance. 6 months into this the STATE OF NEW YORK, forced him to stop this business because of the liability. He was forced to have dealings with the insurance company again or the state medical board was going to pull his license.
Placing blaim in the OB is not going to fix anything!!!! It's insurance companies!!

CNM's and midwifes are into normal labor and birth.

OB's don't get into their profession because they love normal birth. They love crazy/scary cases. Why they are there for most American births is a mystery to me.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

holy cow. I feel like chairs are about to start flying so why not a good time to jump right in I suppose...

Jelliphish. First I love your name! I don't know if it has anything to do with the band but for some reason I like it a lot. Anywho...

Jelliphish, I think it is just getting personal for you and a lot of the other ladies here maybe. I don't think anyone is trying to tell you specifically that your birth experience was not everything you remember it to be. Unfortunately if you loved your hospital experience that is generally not the norm for the rest of the women who have hospital births.

I myself am giving birth in a hospital, A because there is no birth center close enough to me, and B because DH completely nixed the idea of homebirth even though I really wanted one.

I have already taken steps to make it as natural and intervention free as possible. ie great midwife, hospital with lowest c-section rate in the state, researched possible interventions they might try to do and made a very clear, my DH says even slightly b*** birth plan....

Unfortunately a lot of women don't do this or even take the time to research their pregnancy at all. For these women I do believe that they are more often than not taken advantage of because they frankly don't know any better! Is it their fault for being uneducated on the matter? Yes. Is it the hospital/OBs/nurses faults for performing these procedures unnecessarily without even explaining them to the women. Absolutely.
Please don't yell at me


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

on a side note, Obstetrics is the specialty of diseases of pregnancy and birth. There is nothing normal about what they learn in medical school, they are trained to look for and treat diseases of pregnancy/birth. Sadly they are not trained to enjoy a normal healthy birth. That is why I like midwives better personally. It is what they trained for, normal birthing.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I agree that it's sad that birth is now "high-tech" "medicalized" and, as Dr. Marsden Wagner puts it "not women-centered."

The way birth in America is _managed_ is sickening to me. It shouldn't even be "managed" at all -it should just be subtely monitored/observed & allowed to progress naturally - on it's own time.

Well, I can't speak for Erin, who originally said it, but I DO know that the average American birth is NOT empowering. It's just not. Period. It's degrading & horrible. Now that is not to say that it's not possible for a woman to have a medicated birth that IS empowering... but the fact of the matter simply is that it is rare. Heck, empowering hospital birth alone is rare, but _medicated_ & empowering hospital birth? That's gotta be quite rare!

Maybe for you it would be degrading, but that is not the case for everyone. I have had two c-sections and one pregnancy that was full of every intervention I could get. And do you know what, I don't feel degraded at all, in fact I feel quite empowered because I CHOSE this type of birth. I'm not stupid or uneducated, I did my research and this type of prenatal care and birth was right for me. And I came out of both c-sections feeling like I had just experienced the most amazing event ever.

And in case anyone is interested, my mom had six unmedicated births and one with an epidural, and she says that the medicated one was hands down the best birth experience for her. I think her opinion is pretty valid and balanced.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, how do women who are addicted to hard drugs, or have had no prenatal "care" or who have tried to self-abort explain giving people medication without their consent? How do these things explain performing a c-section on someone who says "no"? How do these things account for putting a sleeping pill in a woman's mouth when she's still completely foggy from a general anesthetic (foggy, as in "didn't remember she'd had a baby") and unable to refuse it? How do these things account for snapping at a woman to "hurry up" when she's exhausting herself trying to _roll over_ on the bed, so that she can feed her baby? How do these things explain a "lactation consultant" grabbing a woman's breast without permission, in order to interfere with breastfeeding? Would any of those actions actually accomplish something positive for a mother with a crack addiction?

The problems in the hospital go way beyond policy on performing surgery. They're equally rooted (maybe more so) in the assumption that the patient has no say, because the doctor - or nurse - is the expert.

I'm not saying that the medical profession can do no wrong by any means. I am as discusted by some nurses, OBs, LCs, as everyone else. My point was just to say that in the midst of crappy doctors, there is an even bigger problems of the insurance companies...
Not every examply can be argued...but I think the example I gave of the OB in my area being sued for something, that in all of our minds (MDC members) was a healthy decision for mom and baby, exemplifies a "good" natural minded doctor being slave to the system. This doctor's mother was a midwife, his dad was a Chiro and they were by ALL means a "hippy family"







:. He was the "perfect" OB according to my standards and even greatly supported homebirths. (Popped in on a few of our church members as a "friend" during their homebirths for support).

I just think there are two maybe three very different issues at hand. The OBs, and nurses who perform "birth rape" and treat women like you suggested above, should be fired...there should be no tolerance of them. But you have to agree that not all OB's are like this.

Another seperate issue is the hospital rules/regulations/policies. These are created seperate from the OB to protect the "business" as a whole. Good and Bad OBs have to adhere to these rules, or face being fired. Insurance companies have control over the hospital policies. They can't adhere to the policies, the hospital looses funding in ALL areas not just the OBGYN practice.
If they make seperate rules for seperate pregnancies they run the risk of being sued that way too.

Thirdly
*And please note in my original post I never stated "no prenatal care".* I truly wish people could see the type of parents who come into the hospital. I could tell stories that would make you cry for days. I personally do not care if some of these moms are "snapped" at because I would snapp at them too.
Doctor abuse is Doctor abuse, no matter what the case.... but if it's not something that is completely abusive/illegal not all woman's treatment has to be equal. Expecting a medical professional to treat a mom nice who has just given birth and then said "F this" and abandoned her child to go out for the evening and come back high....is rediculous.

Anywhoo...I don't mean to offend. I just personally, try to start at the top (insurance companies) to find ways for change. I don't have an opinion for every situation and certainly know that abuse in the hospital setting occurs. That is why I research and choose wisely.

I can't remain online right now so can't support this opinion further...DH just called and was in a wreck, and I have to go pay a freaking tow truck....














:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeliphish* 
Thirdly
*And please note in my original post I never stated "no prenatal care".* I truly wish people could see the type of parents who come into the hospital. I could tell stories that would make you cry for days. I personally do not care if some of these moms are "snapped" at because I would snapp at them too.

I don't care what they're like, as they have nothing to do with the "snapped at" scenario I mentioned above. If you would snap at a woman who was just trying to roll over - while recovering from a c-section 24 hours prior, while under the influence of drugs she didn't even know she'd been given, while not receiving any food - in order to feed her baby, and was unable to do so, then you would also deserve all the scorn I'm heaping on these people. That woman didn't bite my head off because of how I treated my baby in utero, or because I was a crazy-acting drug addict. She bit my head off, because I couldn't move fast enough for her convenience.

I find it interesting that you're blaming the insurance companies. All of the things I cited in my prior post took place in my own situation. All of them took place in Canada (which I see cited here frequently as some kind of haven of abuse-free medical care). While insurance companies are still a factor here, they don't play anywhere _near_ the role they do in the US.

I'm not saying that _all_ OBs treat women like that. However, I disagree with you that "it's the only way they can do what they love" is some kind of excuse for treating women badly. No profession has the right to carve women up against their will, because _they_ (the OBs) "love" pregnancy and birth. Just how screwed up is that, anyway?

Quote:

Doctor abuse is Doctor abuse, no matter what the case.... but if it's not something that is completely abusive/illegal not all woman's treatment has to be equal. Expecting a medical professional to treat a mom nice who has just given birth and then said "F this" and abandoned her child to go out for the evening and come back high....is rediculous.
You know, it sucks that you see stuff like that. It sucks that doctors see stuff like that. However, treating women badly doesn't help anything, even if they did walk off and abandon their babies. Sure - I'd be tempted to be nasty, too...it hurts like hell that some women easily have babies they don't even want. But, it doesn't accomplish anything. In any case, those women are one segment of the birthing population, and the fact that some women are addicted to hard drugs, or don't want their babies, has nothing to do with how every other woman should be treated.

And, how do you define "completely abusive"? I'm pretty sure it was illegal to do a c-section on me after I said no...but oddly enough, the fact that I refused doesn't appear _anywhere_ in my records. I guess it doesn't matter, though...after all, the OB probably had to do it, so that he could keep doing what he loves...sure...

Anyway...this has gone way beyond how much I hate having a needle in my spine...way beyond. I think I'll call it a day.


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## angelapittman (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow, this is becoming a heated topic







. Having one birth in the hospital with the epidural and routine junk, and one at home, I feel very strongly about how wonderful homebirths are and how natural childbirth is, and shouldn't be messed with! In MY experience, birthing at the hospital was not "empowering" at all. It felt like I was not regarded as an individual that they should support in labor, but just another patient that they wanted to just get through to the end. KWIM? My nurses were nice ladies, my CNM was a nice lady, the doctors were nice people. I had a healthy baby, so all in all, it was a good day and a good experience... but I didn't know what I was missing until I had my homebirth









When I arrived at the hospital in labor, the first thing they did after I got into my gown was have me lay down. I didn't think anything of it because that was "normal." That's what you do in a hospital. Then once contractions started getting more intense, the only thing I could do was clench the bars on the bed and tense up in pain. Next thing I know, I'm offered complete pain relief, just sign these papers and you'll be feeling great in no time! No horror story here...my epidural went in (painful, but eh, it's a big needle going into your spine!) and within 5 minutes, I felt better. I constantly switched sides in the bed so I would be evenly numb, and even got up to use the bathroom! Lucky for me, the nurses forgot to put a catheter in







. I felt pressure and the urge to push when it was time and baby came out in 20 minutes with a fairly minor 2nd degree tear. Like I said, all in all, a good experience.

I did have a few things that I didn't like about my birth experience, such as them INSISTING on giving my baby antibiotics and keeping her for an extra day, just in case...because when she came out she didn't scream vigorously. ( I now know that this is common with epidural births.) They also made a big deal about her being bluish for the first few seconds of being born. They did not allow me to videotape my birth, which I will ALWAYS regret...my mother was not in the room when she was born because we were only allowed 3 people, and to not cause issues, we just decided it would only be DH. I also spiked a fever shortly after delivery and even passed out in the shower. Some of their other protocol was obnoxious: the armcuff that automatically squeezed my arm every few minutes while laboring (sooo annoying I kept taking it off as soon as they left the room) and being woken up every 2 hours at night to draw blood and take my temperature. Not to mention the dirty looks of "you're a horrible parent" for questions some of the shots they gave her and delaying our discharge by hours and ignoring me when I asked when they would let us go.

For my homebirth, I WAS COMPLETELY IN CONTROL the whole time. I was able to move how I needed to, not rushed at all, push when I needed to ,change positions, etc. That day was the most empowering and wonderfully beautiful day of my life.







I was a woman and my body was completely capable of birthing on its own. I didn't have any cervical checks until right at the end when I wanted to push, she checked me. I just did what my instincts told me to do. I also had a much better recovery. The first time around, I felt like I was hit by a bus. This time, I felt better much much sooner. I went to church less than 24 hours after I gave birth lol. I bled less, I was way less swollen, and just felt "normal" a lot sooner.

On the subject of all the love hormones and whatnot, honestly I'd have to say I felt it more with my natural childbirth. OF COURSE I loved my first daughter, but there was something different this time. It's like a more intense feeling of love. From the moment she was born, I've had this ecstatic feeling of overjoy.

I also co-sleep with this one, which I think helps immensely with the bonding and helps with breastfeeding. I didn't co-sleep with my first daughter because before you leave the hospital, they make sure to beat it into your brain that you are irresponsible and will kill your baby if you sleep with them. With my first, I also didn't like breastfeeding, so I stopped soon after she was born. This time, I am loving it. Looking down at my nursing baby makes my heart melt. It is such a special and sweet experience.

Sheesh, sorry for the LOOONG post. Basically, I think the epidural is offered to vulnerable women as the only way to deal with childbirth. Natural methods of handling it have been forgotten by most hospital staff members, and I think the staff THEMSELVES can't deal with a laboring woman and that's why the epidural is basically routine. I think childbirth is wonderful and works best in so many ways when left alone and that a lot of women truly don't know what they're missing!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I would birth in a box, with a fox...with a mouth full of lox...before I gave birth anywhere close to a hospital! (sorry, I figured maybe a little Dr. Suess would lighten things up!) But that's MY pref. I had an amazing, over the moon birth. I would never, ever consent to the checking of my cervix...forget about an epi!! Just wouldn't happen (barring emergency transfer, obviously).

I think that a lot of women who birth in hospitals don't have an empowering experience...but not because of WHERE they are...rather HOW they are. A women who does the research, writes a thorough birth plan and chooses a provider who listens to her and who she feels sincerely comfortable with...is always gonig to have a more empowering birth experience than the woman who delivers where she thinks she's supposed to, with whoever happens to be her CP and accepts the drugs/whatever that she thinks are *required* for birthing a baby.

So....I don't care WHAT a womans birth plan is....I just want every woman to HAVE one. Look at all the pictures of birth...and decide which one you want to be YOUR picture. Don't just know one picture, the picture "they" show you and think that's what you have to have. CHOOSE. That's all!

Also....wanted to chime in, re: crawling nb's. My baby....about 5 minutes old...army crawled up my chest and latched onto my breast with no help. It was like a freakin' miracle. I was in shock and disbelief! But there she was...swinging her hips, digging in with her arms...it was NUTS. I had seen the research on it and saw the video and thought it was neat but didn't really expect it. My little babe did it though. It took her a minute...but she did it. She's my little scout. My little adventurer!! That was her first real adventure!! Right up from the big scary tummy, to the big lovely booby juice fountain!!


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
A women who does the research, writes a thorough birth plan and chooses a provider who listens to her and who she feels sincerely comfortable with...is always gonig to have a more empowering birth experience than the woman who delivers where she thinks she's supposed to, with whoever happens to be her CP and accepts the drugs/whatever that she thinks are *required* for birthing a baby.

This is true. Also, I'm not really sure how to say this gently, but sometimes we block out the bad stuff to protect ourselves from being hurt by the bad things? For example, I really thought my experience (early induction for "big baby", Pit, AROM, epi, leading to c/s) was FINE and was not disappointed at all until I really dug deep into my psych. I realize now that I didn't do nearly enough to prepare, and can only blame MYSELF. And knowing that I'm planning a HBAC where _I'm_ in control is extremely empowering. I _want_ to feel birth and do what my body needs to do to give birth. I refuse to be victimized at the hospital again because of my ignorance otherwise.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
This is true. Also, I'm not really sure how to say this gently, but sometimes we block out the bad stuff to protect ourselves from being hurt by the bad things? For example, I really thought my experience (early induction for "big baby", Pit, AROM, epi, leading to c/s) was FINE and was not disappointed at all until I really dug deep into my psych. I realize now that I didn't do nearly enough to prepare, and can only blame MYSELF. And knowing that I'm planning a HBAC where _I'm_ in control is extremely empowering. I _want_ to feel birth and do what my body needs to do to give birth. I refuse to be victimized at the hospital again because of my ignorance otherwise.

I agree, but I think that every mother does this to some extent. I know people who immediately following their unmedicated birth could talk of nothing other then the fact that it was the most horrible, painful, traumatic event in their life, and that they wish they had gone to a hospital to get pain medication. But six months later they go on and on about how it wasn't really painful and it was an amazing experience.

I've even done this with my last c-section. I know that the week following my section was painful, but I really can't remember it. I only really remember the happy parts of holding my baby and nursing for the first time.

I think blocking out all the bad stuff is nature's way of getting women to have more then one child.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I think the biggest reason to not get an epidural is that they significantly raise your risk of a c/s. They also open the door to tons more intervention and cause you to be immobile during labor (which is no fun).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
I think blocking out all the bad stuff is nature's way of getting women to have more then one child.

*sigh*
I wish I knew how to do that. I'd probably enjoy this pregnancy a lot more...


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
*sigh*
I wish I knew how to do that. I'd probably enjoy this pregnancy a lot more...


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShwarmaQueen* 
Maybe valid isn't the right word...but maybe more fair? More balanced? How can someone who has only had medicated delivery know how she might or might not feel if she had it unmedicated?

Well, I've had a natural birth and a c-section, so maybe my opinion will hold up.









I felt the exact same both times.


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