# Christians Into Unconditional Parenting?



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

My current dilemna is that many of the insights that are SO helpful to me as a parent are not necessarily "coined" by Christians. This isn't really a problem for me, per se -- I feel I can recognize and value a good idea regardless of whether the person sharing it is of my same faith, but it's hard dealing with our American Church Culture. Many Christians don't want to hear these ideas because they don't go along with "Focus on the Family." So, how much access do I give rewards-oriented Sunday School teachers to my 6yo, who dearly loves going to Sunday School and Children's Church, though it does upset her if her team loses the Bible-memory competition and therefore doesn't get to choose a toy from the prize-box? How on earth do I persuade the teachers that rewards and competition are a bad thing? I've yet to find a church that doesn't do this type of stuff with kids, and I think they'd just label my objections (and underlying philosophy) as New-Age and un-Biblical.

Yes, the Sears, who are Christians, are leaders in the Attachment Parenting/gentle discipline movement -- and I've learned a great deal from them. But I've also been learning a lot from Jean Liedloff's "Continuum Concept" -- and more recently I'm absolutely being transformed by Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting." I feel the unconditional parenting information is what's been missing in my fumbling attempts to hear my heart now that my oldest is six-and-a-half. I simply don't feel right about using punishments and now I see why.

I haven't even read the entire book yet but it's just so totally on-target for me ... I want to treat misbehavior as a problem my children and I can solve TOGETHER, not as an infraction to be punished ... I want to focus on helping my kids to FEEL right inside, so they won't have a desire to do things that physically or emotionally harm others, rather than just focusing on ending all incidents of misbehavior.

I totally agree with Kohn's assessment that people are so quick to ditch the talking to/working with approach and say it doesn't work the moment the child misbehaves again -- but they never seem to ditch punishment (the "doing to" approach), even if it clearly doesn't work; if a child misbehaves twenty minutes after a punishment, rather than saying "punishment doesn't work: I'll switch to talking with my child," they generally think they just need to increase the severity of the punishment.

I'm learning so much about the harmfulness of rewards as well as punishments, and am activily applying Kohn's advice to talk with my children about the effects of their behavior on others, rather than causing them to focus on how their behavior pleases me (which might make them feel I love them more when they're being "nice," when they need to feel my love is secure regardless of their behavior). Rather than saying, "You're so helpful," I'm trying to say things like, "You sure made things easier for me by unloading the drier" ... or even, "What gave you the idea to unload the drier?" (to get them talking instead of me just talking).

I feel such an urgency to radically change myself, inside and out. We unschool, so I don't have to deal with the punisment/reward system of a school -- but there seems to be lots of competition and rewarding going on in children's church programs. How to share what I've learned? Anyone else been there?


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

This is a great topic. I've been wondering the same things myself about parenting and the christian sub-culture in the US. We are part of a bible study with a children's program. The way they approach teaching the kids scripture and about God isn't the way I'd do it. But I believe there are benefits to us being there, so we're sticking with it for now.

I haven't read unconditional parenting, though i've heard a lot about it on MDC. So i can't really speak to that topic.

As for church, though, I'll tell you where we are. Right now we're part of a house church. Because it's just a small group of people meeting in our home we're not dealing with programs or sunday school teachers or methods we don't agree with. We have other sets of problems like what to do with the kids during our meeting since the kids become bored and disruptive after awhile.

I believe you have some alternatives. Check out and see if there are any house churches meeting in your area. A good source is http://www.house2house.com. I've found the house church movement has much in common with the homeschooling. Their basic philosophy is similar. You also might want to check out some "emerging" churches. They tend to be less program driven and include children in worship. A good source for that is TheOoze http://www.theooze.com/se/dir/Churches. You could also just search your yellow pages. Emerging churches typically have unusual names like Mosaic or Doxology.

Good luck!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

aprildawn, friends of mine belong to a house church for these exact reasons--thank you for sharing those helpful links!

mammal_mama, have you ever considered volunteering to start a church program that encompasses your beliefs or maybe teach a parenting workshop on all that you've learned and how it's applicable to your Christian beliefs? I think it can be so important and fufilling that when we're fired up about something to find an outlet to share our enthusiasm and reach others


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

You might enjoy the site gentlechristianmothers.com.







There are also a few gentle disciplie books by Christian authors; I think there is a list of them over at that forum.

As far as reward systems--this is definitely not limited to churches or any one segment of the population. It is pervasive in this culture. I don't appreciate it either, but I feel like as long as the way we do things at home is consistent, having rewards/consequences for a structured setting outside the home for short periods is going to be okay now and then. Just my current opinion on it, though it may change. I think if you are motivated and can find a gentle way to get your points across, though, that is great.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy* 
I feel like as long as the way we do things at home is consistent, having rewards/consequences for a structured setting outside the home for short periods is going to be okay now and then.

I totally agree with this. That's part of the reason we're sticking with the highly structured and rigid Bible study we're in for now. For now the benefits outweigh any damage, and I feel like any damage is easily repairable. Rewards & punishment are pervasive. They'll encounter it eventually. But I do want our home to be a place of grace as much as I'm able to make that happen with God's help.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

I guess I fail to see where *all*competition is so evil. We used to teach Jr Church and often had prizes for memorization of bible verses, etc. Of course, we did other things where everyone got a "prize", so we rarely had disappointed kids.

I am of the mind that some competition is healthy and teaches teamwork, as well as teaches the child that one cannot always have what they want, when they want it. I mean, don't you play games with your child? Card, board, whatever? If so, do you always let the child win?

A lot of competition is bad. A little of it is not, IMO.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
So, how much access do I give rewards-oriented Sunday School teachers to my 6yo, who dearly loves going to Sunday School and Children's Church, though it does upset her if her team loses the Bible-memory competition and therefore doesn't get to choose a toy from the prize-box? How on earth do I persuade the teachers that rewards and competition are a bad thing? I've yet to find a church that doesn't do this type of stuff with kids, and I think they'd just label my objections (and underlying philosophy) as New-Age and un-Biblical.

I think that since it's relatively limited (a few hours a week) and your daughter clearly loves it, I wouldn't stop going - if you're comfortable with other parts of the church.

I can tell you that we are Lutheran, and the kids in Sunday School are never given prizes for memorizing Bible verses -- our denomination is a lot more into interpretation and understanding the Bible than memorization. I think it depends on the denomination, really. (I grew up Catholic and I can tell you there that no one memorizes Bible verses either!)

So, our Sunday School is very consistent with Kohn's approach - we have an large group opening in the sanctuary where we sing songs and collect the children's offering, and then a prayer. The kids are then divided into age group classrooms, where they hear a story/lesson, do a craft project or other game about the lesson, they have snack, and that's it. (The 2-5 year olds basically have themed play during that time.) Not until children reach Catechism age is there any memorization, and even then, it's done in a fun, non-competitive way. (You compete against yourself.)

So, it's possibel to have a Sunday School that doesn't involve rewards and punishments. We collect money for and participate in service projects where children learn the effect of their contributions on others. What more could you want?


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
I guess I fail to see where *all*competition is so evil. We used to teach Jr Church and often had prizes for memorization of bible verses, etc. Of course, we did other things where everyone got a "prize", so we rarely had disappointed kids.

I am of the mind that some competition is healthy and teaches teamwork, as well as teaches the child that one cannot always have what they want, when they want it. I mean, don't you play games with your child? Card, board, whatever? If so, do you always let the child win?

A lot of competition is bad. A little of it is not, IMO.

I'm not against rewards and punishment all the time. I do, however, have a problem with them being associated with church and/or anything related to faith/God/Bible. As christians we believe that God has extended grace to us -- grace we don't deserve. God's approval and love for me isn't based on what I do right or wrong. I think for a kid it would be easy to translate their winning a prize for memorizing Bible verses or having perfect attendance in a certain program with God's approval of them for doing those things. That's a works-based theology and it really isn't scriptural.

Now, if that same church group were to go out and play a game of softball I'd expect one team to lose and one to win. That's the way competition is. But it's fun! Esp if you win. I'm highly competitive and a very sore loser.









Rewards work for my older DD. We use them sometimes in certain situations. I just try not to do it often.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm learning a lot from everyone's input: I hope the responses keep coming.

aprildawn, housechurch is great! We're part of one, but dh's been having health problems and often is just exhausted after work and doesn't want to go back out in the evening ... so, sadly, we haven't been very faithful. Of course we do worship in our home.

We visited a Bible School program in the church around the corner from us last summer, and dd's and I have been periodically been walking over for Sunday School; somehow having a church in walking distance, and going out on Sunday morning, is easier for me right now than putting Baby in the carseat and driving them on my own to Wednesday night housechurch, even though I'm hoping we'll soon get reconnected to our housechurch.

It seems the best way to meet our fellowship needs is to get together with Christian moms during the week: we visit as our kids play and that way I'm not abandoning dh in the evenings (or wearing him out by begging him to come out or by having company here in the evenings).

Overall we've enjoyed the Sunday mornings we've spent at the church around the corner: they seem basically supportive of AP, no complaints about me and Baby/Toddler hanging out in 6yo's class when she wants me there, or about me nursing in the sanctuary. We LOVE our housechurch -- but I can't say the people are exactly supportive of unconditional parenting. When I shared how much I learned from Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's "Spirited Child" book, another mom said, "what about Dobson's 'Strong-Willed Child' book?" One of the pastors suggested I read "Dare to Discipline" and said my 6yo's spirited and I really need to get that in hand (can't remember her exact words, but something like that).

Georgia, I strongly feel a need to start some some sort of group to nurture attachment/unconditional parenting, and I'd LOVE to help bring these concepts into The Church. I feel sad that, from what I've seen, The Church preaches about unconditional love but advocates something much different for the children -- something they often don't experience as love at all. I feel I need some more experience living it out before I can be a really good leader -- and be taken seriously.

And I'm on my own journey of re-learning the meaning of sin and The Fall. When I read Daniel Quinn's "Story of B" it was like a whole new piece jumped into a puzzle I thought I'd finished. I learned the time of The Fall recorded in Genesis coincides with the "Agricultural Revolution" (not really a revolution but the time when one culture took control of the food supply through practicing a whole new kind of agriculture which rapidly spread and got many, many cultures out of sync with nature, and has resulted in our food and water being contaminated and fulfilled the prophecy that "when you eat of that tree you will surely die," 'cause our own attempts to control nature are truly making us sick and killing us, as well as creating a situation where people have to compete to get their needs met). Okay, that probably seems off-topic but I'm learning that our approach to child-rearing is really affected by our view of human nature ... that seems to be why many Christians think punishment is essential to Christian parenting.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I'm not against rewards and punishment all the time. I do, however, have a problem with them being associated with church and/or anything related to faith/God/Bible. As christians we believe that God has extended grace to us -- grace we don't deserve. God's approval and love for me isn't based on what I do right or wrong. I think for a kid it would be easy to translate their winning a prize for memorizing Bible verses or having perfect attendance in a certain program with God's approval of them for doing those things. That's a works-based theology and it really isn't scriptural.

Now, if that same church group were to go out and play a game of softball I'd expect one team to lose and one to win. That's the way competition is. But it's fun! Esp if you win. I'm highly competitive and a very sore loser.









Rewards work for my older DD. We use them sometimes in certain situations. I just try not to do it often.


I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "punishment". We did not punish kids. I guess I am slow today.

We never ever told the children they HAD to learn verses or God would not approve of them. We never even IMPLIED such a thing. We are NOT into the "good works" thing either. The kids actually enjoyed learning the bible verses, if you can believe it. If a child did not want to participate in that activity, that was fine. No pressure. But, we wanted to make it as fun as we could. We had a fairly successful program and the kids had a ball, so I guess we were doing something right. We also sang and colored, and ate. It was not a 2 hour, intense, Jeopary-like competition.

I do not agree with you, but I can respect your opinion.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "punishment". We did not punish kids. I guess I am slow today.

I do not agree with you, but I can respect your opinion.

Sorry. I didn't mean to mention punishment. I had the Bible study my daughter and I go to on my mind as I typed my response. I certainly didn't mean to suggest you punished the kids in your group! Accept my apologies for not being clear.

However, I believe it's critical that we don't ever do anything that would lead a child to associating their being rewarded for memorizing verses or participating in a church activity with God's approval of them. I'm mostly speaking from my own personal experience. But I know I'm not alone having spoken to other kids who came from a similar background.

My experience was that I was in a fun kids worship and youth group growing up. It's wasn't punitive or overly competitive. It was really, really fun. I loved being there. But some of the fun competition certainly influenced my perception of God's approval of me. In other words, if I memorize my verses then my leaders will approve of me, and so will my parents, and so will God. No one every explicitly told me that. My value began to be defined by how I performed and not by my actual relationship with God who loves me whether I memorize 1,000 verses or 0 verses. And memorizing verses or participating in things or leading a small group didn't cause God to love me more than he did before I did all those things.

It wasn't until hearing someone point out that at Jesus baptism, before he'd started his ministry, God said, "This is my Son whom I love. In him I am well pleased," that I realized God's love of me isn't dependent on what I do. I mean, I knew that in my head, but I didn't believe it in my heart. God said that about Jesus before his miracles, teaching, dying on the cross. As his child he says the same of me. I had even gone into full-time ministry partly to earn God's love and approval of me.

It just breaks my heart that any child would ever believe God's love for them is dependent on their performance, even with the best of intentions on the part of the adult leaders, even if no one ever explicitly says it. So, that's why I'm guarded about reward systems associated with church activities and programs.

Again, I'm sorry that I didn't read my post before I responded so I could edit it for clarity. I don't know enough about your program to judge it at all. Forgive me.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

AprilDawn.

As I told you in the PM, there is nothing to forgive. On message boards, sometimes things get lost "in translation", so to speak. I fully understand what you are saying, and I think we had a miscommunication problem.

I grew up in a religion where everything was based on "works". I am no longer in that religion. That is why we were so careful. We wanted to make it fun and teach the kids that it has nothing to do with approval whatsoever.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Tinkerbelle -- Whew! Thanks. I have a chronic case of foot-in-mouth disease, so I'm always saying something that gets me in trouble.









Back to the OP's topic...sorry for deviating from the original subject matter.


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## mysweetw&e (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks for this thread, it has given me more things to think about!









Something that came to me a month or two ago has helped me clarify my beliefs on Christianity and discipline, and helped me explain to my mom and a few others that I've talked to about it. I'm sure many others have thought the same before , but basically it's this:

God is the perfect parent, right? So we should try our best to act towards our children as God acts towards us. And God doesn't punish us anymore, right? Jesus died for us to pay for our sins, and now God uses other methods to help us understand the way he wants us to go (I am constantly amazed by the way things "work out"- how I have certain experiences JUST at the right time, or I read or hear something just when I needed it- and I know that God is gently guiding me through my life). So why is it that we forget that childrens' sins have been paid for too and feel the need to punish them, that we're going to "spoil" them if we don't? Has God been spoiling us all these years?

Hopefully that makes sense!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

I feel I need some more experience living it out before I can be a really good leader -- and be taken seriously.










Experience is an excellent teacher...but also, passion can also be quite persuasive. I'm so happy to hear that you feel called to share your joy







I would totally follow your heart. My advice would be to avoid being trapped thinking that just because you're a relatively new mother you don't have something _very_ important to offer...you might even consider starting a "playgroup" or something where it's more of a peer-group thing, rather than a class at first--where y'all might all read a chapter of a book before the next meeting --something to *try* and focus on while the little ones are playing. Modeling of unconditional love and acceptance coupled with AP would prob. be just as important as the book discussion







Even an email list or something...have you ever considered looking into becoming an API leader? I know quite a few mothers who do this, and API trains you, supports you, etc. which might help boost your confidence while you're gaining experience effectively helping others...

Sorry, just rambling! Thinking of you


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I believe it's critical that we don't ever do anything that would lead a child to associating their being rewarded for memorizing verses or participating in a church activity with God's approval of them...

It wasn't until hearing someone point out that at Jesus baptism, before he'd started his ministry, God said, "This is my Son whom I love. In him I am well pleased," that I realized God's love of me isn't dependent on what I do. I mean, I knew that in my head, but I didn't believe it in my heart. God said that about Jesus before his miracles, teaching, dying on the cross. As his child he says the same of me. I had even gone into full-time ministry partly to earn God's love and approval of me.

It just breaks my heart that any child would ever believe God's love for them is dependent on their performance, even with the best of intentions on the part of the adult leaders, even if no one ever explicitly says it. So, that's why I'm guarded about reward systems associated with church activities and programs.

I'm sorry I've been away from the computer for a while. I'm just getting back to this thread, and am learning so much in reading the responses.

I totally agree with the above quote by aprildawn, and also with mysweetw&e: Jesus has taken the punishment for our sins, so His relationship with us has gone beyond the Old Testament "tit for tat." We should relate to our little ones in the same New Testament way. In Romans it says that His KINDNESS leads us to repentance.

"Unconditional Parenting" has made me aware that rewards are really just the flip side of punishment. Also, even though I know I love my kids regardless of what they do or don't do, it matters how my love is perceived by them. By giving rewards -- whether they take the form of pizza or praise -- I'm saying (or they're hearing me say) that I'm MORE pleased with them when they do certain things. Although Kohn doesn't write from a Christian perspective, his ideal of unconditional love really reflects how I see God's love for me -- and how I want my kids to see God's love for them. God loves us. Period. He'll still love us, just as much, if we do some horrible thing. He also loves us, just as much, if we never really do much of anything and just lie around watching TV and eating chips all day.

I've known for years that it's my total security in the love of God that enables me to step out of myself and REALLY CARE about reaching out and helping others, and it's interesting that Kohn says something quite similar about our kids.

Georgia, thanks so much for your encouragement. I actually have looked into API leadership -- we don't have a group in our area -- and am in the process of doing the required reading, which is a lot of fun. You're also right about the modeling being just as important as my words.

Kohn writes about unconditional parents having to determine the best ways to deal with less than ideal school situations where kids are punished and rewarded rather than encouraged to think about how their actions affect other people. In the worst-case scenario where teacher and school are totally unreceptive to the parent, at least the kids are getting support for becoming moral, empathetic people in the home. In our situation as unschoolers, I feel I'm having to do something similar as I determine which activities are worth the potential cost of my kids feeling conditionally loved by leaders. I honestly don't know ANY Christian leaders who don't believe in offering some sort of extrinsic motivation: now that I know how deadly this is to intrinsic motivation, it seems like such a shame -- but I have to weigh my concerns against the possibility that my kids will end up feeling cut off from the community if I keep them out of everything.

TinkerBelle, I'm trying to find as many ways as I can to play with my kids in such a way that one person doesn't have to succeed at the expense of others. I've always had more fun playing games when I could persuade the other players not to keep score, but usually I'm the only one who feels this way, so I often feel I have to go along with the competitive majority. In "The Continuum Concept," Jean Liedloff talks about a tribal game where the goal is simply to keep a ball in the air as long as possible, no winners or losers: everyone just works together and keeps hitting the ball back up there. That sounds like the kind of game I dreamed about when I was a kid -- but it seemed like I was dreaming alone.


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## joybird (Feb 2, 2006)

I am reading with curiosity and wondering how it is possible to correlate GD with Christianity. What I mean is, aren't "heaven" and "hell" the ultimate forms of "reward" and "punishment"?


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## tiffany21074 (Jan 22, 2006)

here is my understanding without getting too into a religious discussion in the gd forum
a reward is something positive you get for something you "do"
a punishment is something negative you get for something you "do"

heaven is not a reward for something you "do"
hell is not a punishment for something you "do"

christianity isn't based on what works you do throughout your life, it is based on faith alone.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffany21074* 
here is my understanding without getting too into a religious discussion in the gd forum
a reward is something positive you get for something you "do"
a punishment is something negative you get for something you "do"

heaven is not a reward for something you "do"
hell is not a punishment for something you "do"

christianity isn't based on what works you do throughout your life, it is based on faith alone.

Tiffany, that really says it!


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## jillc512 (Aug 31, 2005)

I also agree, Tiffany. I've been amazed at the parallels I continue to discover between UP and God's 'parenting' of us. His Grace is such that the closer my relationship is with Him, the more I want to do what's right, and the easier it is for me to do what's right. I hope my parenting will enable my children to have a similar foundation and behave in the same way (both because of their relationship with me/DH and their relationship with God).


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## SweetMamaMe (Jun 26, 2006)

Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6


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