# Having a boy... to circ or not to circ?



## BnInTheOvn (Oct 16, 2008)

Hello,

I'm new to this particular sub-forum, but am not sure where else to post this particular question. I've been posting for a little while on some other ones though...

I am pregnant with #2, due March 13th, and have just found out we're having a boy.
We have been discussing circumcission pros and cons, and really would like to find out more about the actually procedure, and complications from EITHER side.
I am aware I'm posting on a board that is against Circ, but would really appreciate straght forward responses, not one sided opinions. I am not for/against it as of yet, but want to have all the knowledge I can get before making the choice.
If someone could please explain the procedure of circ to me, and whether there is anything given to numb the area, etc. Any info like that. As well as any dangers with having it done, and also the dangers of NOT having it done.

Thanks!!


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## vintagetroll (Apr 13, 2008)

there will be some great posters to this really armed with all the facts, but I like to keep it nice and simple.
The foreskin is a functioning healthy part of the male anatomy. Removing it is a cosmetic procedure not needed for good health. To remove it would be taking something away from your son without his consent, that he can never ever get back. If you would not alter your little girl, cut off a toe just because you think the foot would be cuter without it, or tattoo their forehead, you should not be monkeying around with your little boys genitals either.

I'll wait for the other posters to explain why having the foreskin is actually preferable to circumsision (on every level, from cosmetic to healthwise) but to me the decision was made completly because I didn't feel I had the right to make that decision for my son. If some day he wants to be circumsised, it will be as an adult, with lots of pain meds, Mom taking care of him, and I will even pay the tab. But right now I am happy to wait and let him decide what his penis should look like.,


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

To cut off a healthy and integral part of a baby's body there needs to be a damn good reason. Circumcision doesn't fit and besides cosmetic reasons there is no reason to circumcise (and even then I don't think a parents preference should count, not their penis).

There is a lot of great info in the stickies at the top of this forum. I'd read about the purposes and functions of the foreskin, it is there for a reason.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Hello,

I'm new to this particular sub-forum, but am not sure where else to post this particular question. I've been posting for a little while on some other ones though...

I am pregnant with #2, due March 13th, and have just found out we're having a boy.
We have been discussing circumcission pros and cons, and really would like to find out more about the actually procedure, and complications from EITHER side.
I am aware I'm posting on a board that is against Circ, but would really appreciate straght forward responses, not one sided opinions. I am not for/against it as of yet, but want to have all the knowledge I can get before making the choice.
If someone could please explain the procedure of circ to me, and whether there is anything given to numb the area, etc. Any info like that. As well as any dangers with having it done, and also the dangers of NOT having it done.

Thanks!!









I see you know this is the Case Against Circumcision so we can't host discussion exactly as you would like. This thread might get pulled but I'll hit some quick points and expand later based on your replies:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
If someone could please explain the procedure of circ to me,

I will look for a step by step if you want but it is graphic. There is a video on this somewhere it might be a couple of pages back. But the basic procedure goes like this:

Strap the kid in a restraint
Separate the foreskin with a blunt probe from the head, the two are attached like your finger nail is to the nail bed.
Cut an incision down the top middle of the foreskin.
The Gomgo Clamp Method:
Then has a silver bell shield inserted between the head and the foreskin.
The other half of the device is attached and the foreskin is pinched between the bell and the outside part of the device. It is then crushed by ratcheting tighter and tighter.
it is then cut around the bell.
In the Plastic Bell Method:
The plastic bell is inserted between the foreskin and the glans.
A nylon line is tied around which cuts off blood and causes the foreskin to die and eventually fall off, this takes several days.
Before he leaves, they will cut much of the foreskin in front of the bell.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
and whether there is anything given to numb the area, etc.

It is not clear that boys receive much, if anything but the most common is a sugar pacifier followed by a topical agent. Sometime both sometimes more. But the all wear off days before he is completely healed. And none are very effective. But I should add that whether or not a procedure is painful or not doesn't change the ethics of the procedure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Any info like that. As well as any dangers with having it done, and also the dangers of NOT having it done.

Dangers of having it done -- Complications:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html

There are really no dangers to not having it done. All of the supposed benefits are either for problems that are very rare, easily treatable with non-invasive means, or the benefit really doesn't exist (a myth). Further, if it isn't done your son has options. He could get it done if he wants when he is older. If he is circumcised and not happy with that (and those men do exist) he has no real recourse.

There is plenty more PM me if the thread is pulled.

ETA: Could we turn the question around and ask it like this: I heard that circumcision is good because of <insert reason> what are your feelings on this? So in other words, why would you consider circumcision? (Serious question and don't hesitate to ask no flames will come.)


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## kiara7 (Feb 14, 2008)

Just wanted to tell you that there are no dangers of not having it done.
People may tell you it's cleaner. That comes from the old myth that you have to retract an infants' skin to clean under. You don't, just wipe like a finger.

People may tell you about UTI's. UTI's are extremely rare and if there is an UTI it can always be treated with antibiotics (just like a girl).

People may tell you about STD's and AIDS. The studies that have been done that show "success" of circ., were done in Africa, are suspicious and even the American Academy of Pediatrics concluded that the studies are flawed. Safe sex practices is what prevents STD's and AIDS (otoh, majority of grown men in US have been circ'ed, but US leads the developed world in STD's).

Also, the rate of circ. is falling in the US at last. No credible medical organization in the world recommends infant circ. It's a gruesome and torturous procedure that accomplishes nothing.


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## BnInTheOvn (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you, I'm going to check out the stickies and also the links sent...

And actually, (in effort to rephrase and also to really find out) I do have another question.

As an infant, the skin in not retractable, making cleanliness difficult (say the Drs??) I read another post on here and got confused a little about the word "retract". It said something about the skin eventually will retract on it's own and that forced retraction can cause trauma to the area and soreness, etc. If I'm understanding this right, when does the skin become "loosened" (general term as I really do not know what I'm talking about here, lol) and able to be retracted?

The root of my question is this: If baby is not circumcised at birth, is it possible to do it later on? And is it possible to do it with lack of pain?

The idea that "well yes, it hurts, but the baby will never remember it" is just horrifying to me. My daughter broke her leg at 1 year, and wont remember it. But that doesnt mean it didnt hurt so I should break the other one too... I just hate that form of reasoning that they wont remember it. I cant imagine hurting a little baby like that.
In a different post it was compared to tearing off a fingernail, is that accurate??


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

No medical organization in the world endorses RIC not even the AAP. Even if they use anesthetic you have a raw open wound in the diaper with pee and poo how sanitary can that possibly be.

There is no medical reason for infant circ. The study showing UTI more common with intact was flawed in that they used intact premature infants compared to full term circed infants. Premies always have higher risk for UTI.

There is no bad things that can come from not circing but there are complications that can and do happen when circ is done.

All male mammals are born with a foreskin (except the bat) it is there for many reasons, to protect the glans from being rubbed in clothing and causing loss of sensation due to constant exposure to the air and clothing it protects from bacteria entering the urethra.

I could go on and on but you didnt request that so I wont. Just keep in mind that your ds has a right to full sexual function just like your dd has. Removing the foreskin removes that from happening. Yes the penis still works but it dosnt work the way nature ment for it to. The foreskin bunching actually provideds g-spot stimulation you cant get without it.

Have you watched the circ video? You need to if you havnt and see for yourself exactly what is done. Reading the description makes me sick and I couldnt get past the first minute of the video







: I had dh watch it a few months back since he was still ok with circ he had no idea how horrible it really was









Link to the video http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=481025

How the foreskin works movable images http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=695216

Penn & Teller video http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=999187

For more information the resources sticky is great.

The circ rate in the USA right now is around 54% with it dropping fast. Approx. 1% a year. Some states are lower than others. But I refuse to base my decisions on what anyone else is doing and even if the circ rate in the USA was 100% my ds would still be intact.


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## latinalonestar (Jan 26, 2008)

Others have said some great things but I wanted to chime in.

The notion that there are pros to circing and that foreskin can cause "complications" is false. The reason we can not give you balanced discussion is b/c there really are no reasons to circ. If you have specific concerns like "cleanliness", "medical reasons", "matching daddy", etc etc, please ask us and we will explain to you exactly what the fallacy is behind each and every pro-circ argument. The research and facts do not support circ in any way whatsoever.

Do you have any specific things you have heard that are making you consider circing?

Here in CAC we have spent years (decades for some of us) researching this issue. We have heard it all from the pro-circers. Fact is, pro-circers do not do the research that we do. They often read one or two fallacious things and then make their position that they are pro-circ. Many of them base their decision on what they have done themselves even if it was done out of ignorance. I have never come across a single pro-circ argument that is valid.

Please use this forum to your advantage. We can share oodles of info with you that will knock your socks off.

Welcome to CAC and I look forward to seeing you on here asking your questions.


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## latinalonestar (Jan 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Thank you, I'm going to check out the stickies and also the links sent...

And actually, (in effort to rephrase and also to really find out) I do have another question.

As an infant, the skin in not retractable, making cleanliness difficult (say the Drs??) I read another post on here and got confused a little about the word "retract". It said something about the skin eventually will retract on it's own and that forced retraction can cause trauma to the area and soreness, etc. If I'm understanding this right, when does the skin become "loosened" (general term as I really do not know what I'm talking about here, lol) and able to be retracted?

The root of my question is this: If baby is not circumcised at birth, is it possible to do it later on? And is it possible to do it with lack of pain?

The idea that "well yes, it hurts, but the baby will never remember it" is just horrifying to me. My daughter broke her leg at 1 year, and wont remember it. But that doesnt mean it didnt hurt so I should break the other one too... I just hate that form of reasoning that they wont remember it. I cant imagine hurting a little baby like that.
In a different post it was compared to tearing off a fingernail, is that accurate??

MYTH 2: Having an intact boy means more work and extra cleaning to prevent infection.
TRUTH: It is actually easier to care for an intact boy. People are severely misinformed about the anatomy of foreskin. During the infant/childhood years the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis and the opening is only wide enough to allow for urine to pass through. This protects the developing penis from urine, feces, and other harmful pathogens. An intact boy should NEVER be retracted for cleaning or for any other reason. Premature retraction causes tearing and pain and can result in many complications, including infection. The proper care for the intact penis is to LEAVE IT ALONE, only the exterior gets cleaned. Should poop get on the penis, all you do is wipe it like a finger. Throughout childhood the skin will slowly separate from the glands and the foreskin opening will widen. Self-cleaning excretions prevent the need for cleaning during that time. Through self-discovery a boy will learn to retract his own foreskin. After retraction is possible a boy can easily clean himself with a quick rinse in the same way that girl cleans her privates. It is a good rule of thumb to never let anyone touch your intact son's penis. Many people, including care providers, will ignorantly try to retract the foreskin. Fact is, the US medical profession cut off so many foreskins in the past that the doctors rarely if ever saw an intact boy and have lost the base of knowledge of diagnosis and treatment. Now, they are operating in a vacuum of information or even worse, in an environment of false information. The only tool you need to care for an intact boy is a ruler to smack the hands of those curious people who attempt to retract his foreskin.







Retraction happens at a different time for each boy. Some boys do not retract until puberty, that is perfectly normal.
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet4.html
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet6.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/peron1/

MYTH 7: If I don't circumcise my son, it may need to be done later in life. I've heard of some 5-10 year old boys having to be circumcised.
FACT: This misconception is another that stems from the problem that doctors are not being educated about the normal development of the intact penis. The only reason that a child or adult would ever need to be circumcised would be in the case of frostbite, gangrene, malignancy, or serious trauma. Doctors that do not know about the anatomy and development of the foreskin often prescribe circumcision for a multitude of incorrect "reasons". For example if a 10 year old boy is not retractable a doctor might tell a parent that he needs to be circumcised. This is not true. In fact, only 50% of boys are retractable by age 10. Many boys do not become retractable until puberty. This is normal. In the rare event that a man is not retractable by adulthood, there is steroidal cream that can be applied which will allow the skin to stretch. Amputation is not necessary. Another example is repeated infection. The foreskin is NO more likely to become infected than any other part of the body. In the rare chance that there is an infection, antibiotic ointments are sufficient. Parents that complain of repeated infection are almost always parents that are trying to retract their child's foreskin for "cleaning". As stated before, there is not reason to try to clean under a boy's foreskin. Trying to "clean" under the foreskin is the equivalent to trying to wash out a girls vagina. It will ultimately cause a floral imbalance and result in infection.
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet7.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...kinleaflet.pdf
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

The foreskin is fused to the glans in infancy and childhood and it should only be wiped like you would wipe a finger. Nothing can get under it it's designed that way. Retraction happens at different times for different boys and there is no set time they should retract by. Many doctors (medical personnel) are ignorant about intactness in general (in the US) but especially about retraction, they will say it should be retracted by xyz with no real reason for it and recommend circumcision if not retracted by whatever arbitrary age they have suggested.


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## BnInTheOvn (Oct 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *latinalonestar* 
Others have said some great things but I wanted to chime in.

The notion that there are pros to circing and that foreskin can cause "complications" is false. The reason we can not give you balanced discussion is b/c there really are no reasons to circ. If you have specific concerns like "cleanliness", "medical reasons", "matching daddy", etc etc, please ask us and we will explain to you exactly what the fallacy is behind each and every pro-circ argument. The research and facts do not support circ in any way whatsoever.

Do you have any specific things you have heard that are making you consider circing?

Here in CAC we have spent years (decades for some of us) researching this issue. We have heard it all from the pro-circers. Fact is, pro-circers do not do the research that we do. They often read one or two fallacious things and then make their position that they are pro-circ. Many of them base their decision on what they have done themselves even if it was done out of ignorance. I have never come across a single pro-circ argument that is valid.

Please use this forum to your advantage. We can share oodles of info with you that will knock your socks off.

Welcome to CAC and I look forward to seeing you on here asking your questions.

I have SO MANY questions!! And my reasonings for considering it are as follows:

1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.

2. My fiance is circed, and when I even brought it up, he said "We are circ-ing him." His standpoint was that he wouldn't want our son to be made fun of when he has to change in front of other boys (or feel like he can't change in front of them), or feel like he is "different", or feel insecure with his body in front of a woman.

3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?

These are my main reasons for considering it, but I do have reasons for not considering it.

1. I've heard of "botched" circs and it horrifies me.

2. The lack of pain relief given when the circ is done, and the excuse that "they dont feel it" or "it hurts but they wont remember it." That horrifies me as well.

3. Son being unhappy that he was circed, and nothing we can do about fixing it after the fact.

I just want to get all of the info so we can make a better decision, and can be comfortable with our choice.


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## BnInTheOvn (Oct 16, 2008)

Someone said to check out the circ video... where do I go about doing that? (are we talking an online video or one I need to get and watch at home?)
I'd love to see it.

Thanks!


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## Lit Chick (Aug 15, 2007)

I was like you. After doing my homework I became very anti-circ.

Yes, the fingernail comparison is accuarte. Our fingernails are attached to our nailbed. We do not pull back our fingernails to clean the nailbed - there is no need. And in fact, doing so _is used as torture_.
Even though many circs are done with some painkillers, those wear off. The pain lasts for days.

My friend just had her baby, and she had him circed. Days later, the little one was still stayed drowsy and not alert because the pain kept him hazy. And every time he peed, he moaned and sobbed. It was such a different sound than hungry baby, or tired baby. I never heard hurt baby before, and it broke my heart.

Cleanliness is not an issue while the forskin is still attached to the glans. Later, it will be as simple as washing any other part of the body. You do not aggressively scrub your labia - you gently cleanse it. An intact man will gently wash himself in a similar way.

If your child chooses to circ as an adult, it is possible. It will hurt, but pretty much any cosmetic surgery / body modification does.

I don't think that people who circ their children are evil mutilating bad parents, but I do think they are very uninformed. Please do all your homework - when you learn about it is just sad and brutal.

Also, hospitals have an interest in getting you to circ - they make money. Foreskin is used to grow new skin for grafts, and it is worth a good amount of $. The system is set up to encourage that industry, not to discourage it.

Finally, just like with breastfeeding - circing is not something that american docs know much about. They know what they were taught, and it's very out of date. For some real eye-opening reading, look into the history of circ and why it became standard in America but hardly anywhere else. Corn Flakes plays a part. Really.


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## vintagetroll (Apr 13, 2008)

well now that the circ rate in this country is about 50 percent, he is more likely to be made fun of for being circed than not being. So even if guys really spent alot of time comparing their junk (which they don't) it would come out in the wash.

Circumsision was originally brought to this country to curb masturbation. Didn't work, and ever since they have been trying to find a good reason to do it, but it was always theory trying to support the practice rather than science making clear that it was needed. All reasons have since been refuted so now that the major pediatric organizations have to admit it is a purely cosmetic procedure.

I would not worry about my son cleaning his foreskin anymore than my daughter cleaning her labia, which has a heck of alot more nooks and crannies. Both my kids will be expected to practice good hygiene after we teach them how. Your boy ends up with stinky junk you send him back into the shower to clean it, the same way you would make him go back and brush his teeth. (my brother used to avoid this like the plague) So there is alot of worry for nothing really.

there is no way around the fact that it is a painful truamatic procedure done on a newborn. Like getting here isn't hard enough, you got to start removing body parts as soon as they get here. And if your son wants to be circed he can choose that later, same way if he wants piercing or tattoos. You take something away and he can never get that back, and how will you answer that? My husband is quite angry about what his parents choose for him. I would hate for my son to feel that way about me.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Once the boy is old enough and is retractable which can take into the teen years he simply:

1) retract the foreskin
2) rinse with clean water no soap
3) replace the foreskin

Couldnt be any more simple really.


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## njbeachgirl (Oct 8, 2006)

Hi mama! You are sure to get a lot of great, honest answers here. Congrats on your pregnancy! I'm going to answer your questions as best I can









It's true that most boys are circed in the US, but the rate continues to fall. I think only about 60% of boys in North America are circumcised now! The original reason for doing it was to prevent masturbation







And some parents continued to do it because of (mistaken) beliefs that it was cleaner, boys should look like daddy, etc. You bring up an excellent point- in Europe it is not routinely done- and you don't hear European men or their partners complaining!









You need to share more research with your fiance. My husband is also circ'd and I think he just assumed it was something that was automatically done to boys. Once I explained to him how I felt about it though, he was on board with keeping DS intact. Honestly, you can't let it be up to him just because he has a penis and you don't







For me it was just not negotiable. Show him a video of a circ if you need to so he can see what really happens. It's not just "a flap of skin that's cut off"- it's real surgery with real pain and risks. And as circ becomes more and more uncommon there is not really any stigma surrounding the foreskin anymore as far as locker rooms. I can't speak for other women but I always just thought it was normal, if a woman is really turned off by it, she's probably not the right one to be involved with.

As far as cleaning my boy is only 5 months old. But it's easy peasy- usually easier than cleaning my daughter since girls have more folds. All you do is wipe it down like a finger. By the time he is retractable, he will be able to retract the foreskin and clean himself easily.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I put a link to the video thread in my OP we xposted so go back up and watch it please.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I don't worry about my sons getting dirty anymore than I worry about my daughter (who has many more folds and places for the dirties to hide







).


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

:

It was so much more difficult to clean my dd than ds when she had a big bfed poo.

Something that is hard to clean on a boy is his scrotum all those tiny wrinkles and things moving around in there


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

Hi Bunintheoven!

The cleanliness thing is such a misconception. You will find a little boy is much easier than a little girl. Let's look at it this way - when your little girl gets older will you douche and clean all the way up her vagina and scrub every fold to get the ickiness off it? No of course not. All that is required is a little warm water, a gentle swish and mild mild soap. Same with a retractable boy. When they're in diapers and for quite a number of years afterwards it's like cleaning a finger. An let's be frank - do you think a little boy is going to have to be coaked to play with his bits in the bath









Men and women have different version of the same parts, we're just put together differently. I have experience with both an intact son and an intact husband and neither are dirty. My husband showers daily and isn't icky or smelly. Neither is my son. And you know what? I am a CLEAN FREAK! I have the stereotypical OCD American thing of showering all the time and washing everything and worrying about germs. Trust me when I say I would be more than honest if an intact penis smelled gross. An unwashed penis smelled, it's intactness has nothing to do with it at all.

But that's beside the point, it's there for a reason and should be left that way. If your son wants it done he can do so as an adult.

Finally momma if you don't want it done it is your choice as mother in the hospital. I know your fiance will be upset and bluster about if you're not able to convince him but eventually he'll get over it. And you're the momma bear, hardwired to protect your child and will hate yourself if you have it done and know better (which sounds like you already do).

As for getting made fun of, our generation of boys will be around 50/50 so I wouldn't worry. And if your lived in a country that all the girls had the prepuce of their clitoris (same stuff as the foreskin) would have that removed so she wouldn't be made fun of?

Good luck, glad you're here!


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## Lit Chick (Aug 15, 2007)

Here's the book I found most helpful:
Circumcision: A History of the World's Most Controversial Surgery

There are some vis online, and the Penn and Teller episode of BullS... is good.


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## latinalonestar (Jan 26, 2008)

In case you missed this...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *latinalonestar* 
MYTH 2: Having an intact boy means more work and extra cleaning to prevent infection.
TRUTH: It is actually easier to care for an intact boy. People are severely misinformed about the anatomy of foreskin. During the infant/childhood years the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis and the opening is only wide enough to allow for urine to pass through. This protects the developing penis from urine, feces, and other harmful pathogens. An intact boy should NEVER be retracted for cleaning or for any other reason. Premature retraction causes tearing and pain and can result in many complications, including infection. The proper care for the intact penis is to LEAVE IT ALONE, only the exterior gets cleaned. Should poop get on the penis, all you do is wipe it like a finger. Throughout childhood the skin will slowly separate from the glands and the foreskin opening will widen. Self-cleaning excretions prevent the need for cleaning during that time. Through self-discovery a boy will learn to retract his own foreskin. After retraction is possible a boy can easily clean himself with a quick rinse in the same way that girl cleans her privates. It is a good rule of thumb to never let anyone touch your intact son's penis. Many people, including care providers, will ignorantly try to retract the foreskin. Fact is, the US medical profession cut off so many foreskins in the past that the doctors rarely if ever saw an intact boy and have lost the base of knowledge of diagnosis and treatment. Now, they are operating in a vacuum of information or even worse, in an environment of false information. The only tool you need to care for an intact boy is a ruler to smack the hands of those curious people who attempt to retract his foreskin.







Retraction happens at a different time for each boy. Some boys do not retract until puberty, that is perfectly normal.
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet4.html
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet6.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/
http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/peron1/

MYTH 7: If I don't circumcise my son, it may need to be done later in life. I've heard of some 5-10 year old boys having to be circumcised.
FACT: This misconception is another that stems from the problem that doctors are not being educated about the normal development of the intact penis. The only reason that a child or adult would ever need to be circumcised would be in the case of frostbite, gangrene, malignancy, or serious trauma. Doctors that do not know about the anatomy and development of the foreskin often prescribe circumcision for a multitude of incorrect "reasons". For example if a 10 year old boy is not retractable a doctor might tell a parent that he needs to be circumcised. This is not true. In fact, only 50% of boys are retractable by age 10. Many boys do not become retractable until puberty. This is normal. In the rare event that a man is not retractable by adulthood, there is steroidal cream that can be applied which will allow the skin to stretch. Amputation is not necessary. Another example is repeated infection. The foreskin is NO more likely to become infected than any other part of the body. In the rare chance that there is an infection, antibiotic ointments are sufficient. Parents that complain of repeated infection are almost always parents that are trying to retract their child's foreskin for "cleaning". As stated before, there is not reason to try to clean under a boy's foreskin. Trying to "clean" under the foreskin is the equivalent to trying to wash out a girls vagina. It will ultimately cause a floral imbalance and result in infection.
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet7.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...kinleaflet.pdf
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
As an infant, the skin in not retractable, making cleanliness difficult (say the Drs??) I read another post on here and got confused a little about the word "retract". It said something about the skin eventually will retract on it's own and that forced retraction can cause *trauma to the area and soreness*, etc. If I'm understanding this right, when does the skin become "loosened" (general term as I really do not know what I'm talking about here, lol) and able to be retracted?

bolding mine. Yeah... soreness the same way ripping your fingernails off would cause soreness. Intense searing pain might be more accurate.

Yes, eventually the foreskin will retract, pull back, on its own. You still don't need to worry about it. The owner of the penis, when old enough to do so (7,8, 9 +) AND naturally retractable, should retract, rinse, replace at bath time.

Most boys become retractable somewhere between 2yrs and 18 yrs.

Quote:

The root of my question is this: If baby is not circumcised at birth, is it possible to do it later on? And is it possible to do it with lack of pain?

The idea that "well yes, it hurts, but the baby will never remember it" is just horrifying to me. My daughter broke her leg at 1 year, and wont remember it. But that doesnt mean it didnt hurt so I should break the other one too... I just hate that form of reasoning that they wont remember it. I cant imagine hurting a little baby like that.
In a different post it was compared to tearing off a fingernail, is that accurate??

It can be done later under general anesthesia with post op. pain medication. Both things unavailable to a newborn.

Tearing off a fingernail is akin to the separation of the foreskin from the glans. The cutting would be akin to cutting off your earlobes or lips or other bit of skin....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
I have SO MANY questions!! And my reasonings for considering it are as follows:

1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.


SURE! there's a reason for it. It was thought to reduce masturbation. It doesn't. But the good ol' USA isn't big on evidence-based medicine.

Quote:

2. My fiance is circed, and when I even brought it up, he said "We are circ-ing him." His standpoint was that he wouldn't want our son to be made fun of when he has to change in front of other boys (or feel like he can't change in front of them), or feel like he is "different", or feel insecure with his body in front of a woman.
Well, it's quite likely he'll know more intact peers than circed ones. And if he's intact, he can always get circed later. If he's circed he's SOL.

Never mind if he moves to Europe. Where nearly everyone is intact.

Quote:

3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?
The beauty of the intact penis is that nothing really needs to be done until they're old enough that they're already going to be erm, handling it









Do you worry with your girls that you'll have to hold them down and really clean in all those folds when they're 5-10? Sounds pretty horrifying, huh?

Quote:

These are my main reasons for considering it, but I do have reasons for not considering it.
I just want to get all of the info so we can make a better decision, and can be comfortable with our choice.
There are NO reasons for doing it. None. It's an awful, barbaric process that should be outlawed.

-Angela


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

You've gotten lots of great links, advice etc.

I'll just chime in here from the perspective of cleaning/cleanliness, day to day living with intact sons etc.

I have two intact boys and honestly, it is no big deal. It's not even something I worry about, or even really think about. My DD was harder to keep clean down there because, like a PP mentioned, there are way more nooks and creases etc in that area for girls yk?

As for the retraction thing, I didn't worry about that either. Little boys are completely fascinated with their penis from the get go and play with it any chance they get.







They will figure out when it is able to retract. It's really not something you need to worry about either.

I'll just put it bluntly:

There is NO good reason to circ your son. Period.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
His standpoint was that he wouldn't want our son to be made fun of when he has to change in front of other boys (or feel like he can't change in front of them), or feel like he is "different", or feel insecure with his body in front of a woman.

This probably won't be an issue for the upcoming generation, because the numbers are changing, as has been mentioned.

But even if it were the norm, we wouldn't have done it. Kind of like, even if female circumcision were the norm here, we still wouldn't do it. Too many risks and probelms associated with both procedures.

As far as little boys looking like Daddy-- well, they don't, whether they're circed or not. My DH is circed, our sons are not, and it hasn't been an issue. Little boy penises just look different anyway. My little boys often walk in on me in the bathroom







and ask why _I_ look different than them! We like the answer, "everyone looks different!" No big deal!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?

It's really no big deal. I haven't _touched_ my four-year-old's penis since he was out of diapers, and we have had no problems with cleanliness. Like a girl's anatomy, the inside parts are naturally self-cleaning, and the outside parts require little more than a gentle wash in soapy water. A bubble bath does the trick, no scrubbing involved! We have never had any issues or complications whatsoever from them not being circed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
1. I've heard of "botched" circs and it horrifies me.

It's a real risk (can't remember the numbers) and it IS horrifying. For one thing, it's so dangerous to perform such a procedure on such a young baby-- days-old babies' blood usually doesn't clot well. So bleeding problems are common. And even "tiny" mistakes can be a big deal-- I had one boyfriend who's circ was so tight (they removed a little bit too much skin, this is another common problem) that he had serious sexual malfunctions as a result. He couldn't last for more than a minute or two IF THAT and erections were quite painful to him.







Very, very sad. At the time neither one of us realized it was circ-related. I _still_ feel so bad for him when I think about it!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Son being unhappy that he was circed, and nothing we can do about fixing it after the fact.

This is the case with my dh. Luckily, he doesn't have a "botched" circ or anything, and neither one of us ever had an issue with he circed state until we started researching circ.

Now it is something he doesn't like to talk about at all because he loves his parents and doesn't want to feel angry at them-- they didn't know any better, just going with the flow-- but the sense of indignance he has now, that he had no say-- and will never know the pleasures of having a foreskin-- it's emotionally painful.

Like a number of men who learn about the function of the foreskin, he is now trying to do something called foreskin "restoration", which means slowly trying to stretch out the remaining skin on the shaft of the penis. If men stretch that skin out for a long enough amount of time, (_years_, usually using special skin-stretching devices that they wear part time) then they can get a little bit of a pseudo-foreskin back, although not with all of the functions of the original foreskin. But it has been frustrating and uncomfortable for him, this stretching process, as you can imagine. He has seen little if any progress yet.









It means SO much to us to know that our sons can make their own decisions on such a sensitive issue, instead of having that choice taken from them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
I just want to get all of the info so we can make a better decision, and can be comfortable with our choice.

I know, and that makes you a great mom.









One last thing I want to mention: one of the primary functions of the foreskin is sexual. It enhances not only the male's pleasure, but helps him to have more sexual control (not ejaculating too quickly, can last longer if he wants to, etc) which can enhance his partner's enjoyment. The male foreskin helps the female partner to achieve orgasm during intercourse in several ways. Also, purely from a comfort standpoint, the foreskin functions to maintain the woman's natural lubrication so she doesn't dry out during the act, and this makes intercourse more gentle during her "dryer" times-- like when she's breastfeeding, or close to her period, or during and after menopause.

Hope all this info helps!


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I just want to chime in and say GOOD FOR YOU for asking these questions now. I found MDC briefly during my pregnancy, but sadly I never visited this board or asked these questions. Allowing my son to be circ'd was the biggest mistake of my life, something I will always regret and can never take back









It was not easy to admit that something I had agreed to was not only unecessary, but harmful and violated my child's rights. It wasn't easy to open my mind enough to see that everyone I know and everything I thought about this topic was just plain wrong. Thankfully there are many knowledgable people here who can direct you to the info you are seeking - so you can find the truth for yourself.

Best of luck to you & your little one.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). *But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.*

One word. MONEY!!! Imagine getting $200.00-$800.00 for a 20 minute "procedure". There is no medical reason to circ a perfectly healthy baby.


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## Haselnuss (Sep 20, 2008)

You've gotten a lot of good answers - just a few things I'd like to add:

First, "what are the risks of not circumcising" seems like an odd question, when you think about it. Do we ask what the risks of not pulling healthy teeth, not amputating healthy toes or removing healthy fingernails are? Sure, you could say that by doing these things, you reduce the risk of cavities, frostbitten toes and ingrown nails, but this is obviously an illogical reason to remove healthy body parts. When you consider the supposed "benefits" of circumcision, don't forget the price - amputation of part of the genitals. Ask yourself whether you'd have your labia removed to gain the same "benefits", and it should be clear how absurd the practice is.

Also - yes, it's basically unheard of in Europe (except among religious minorities or among the old men in England - it was briefly "trendy" there a couple generations ago). My DF is German and, as far as we know, no man among his family/friends is circumcised and none ever had any problems related to it (You're apt to hear about a lot of older men who "had to be circumcised" in the US simply because our doctors lack knowledge about the intact penis - in Europe, they would get less invasive treatment).
Ah, yeah, and regarding 5-10 year olds not being able to wash themselves - I've seen my DF shower, and it's really not a complicated process.







Retract and wash - it takes seconds, and a 3 year old could do it. If he can wash his hands, he can wash his penis (really, it's more difficult for a girl to wash herself, and my 4yo manages that).


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

My two teenagers are intact. They're perfectly healthy. I never underestimated their intelligence when they were little; they figured out how to wash themselves quite easily.

Their father is circed. They saw him naked when they were small, and never once asked why he looked different. I think a grown man's parts look so much different than a little boy's parts, on so many levels, that the missing foreskin isn't as noticable.

My son did notice that his (circed) friend's penis "looked funny" when they were changing clothes together after swimming at age 6. So yeah, little children who aren't embarrassed easily might notice each others' junk, but I doubt that any teenager in a locker room would want to be caught gazing at another boy's meat.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I think that you just need to actually think about the absurdity of the whole thing..I mean really...

Why on earth would you cut off any part of your baby's body? It's just plain weird!


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
I have SO MANY questions!! And my reasonings for considering it are as follows:

1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.

Probably 80% of American men in your age group are circumcised only about 55% are being circumcised today, but there are wide regional variations. It is in a slow decline though. It might be more accurate to say that circumcision is an American thing rather than saying not circumcising is a European thing because non-religious circumcision is practically unknown outside the US. I was also big in Australia and Canada but they started to stop doing it in the 80s and 90s respectively and the numbers are at or below 10% in those places. The reason why slight majority of males are still being circumcised today is because Drs don't actively dissuade parents as they should. It has nothing to do with being healthier or anything like that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*
2. My fiance is circed, and when I even brought it up, he said "We are circ-ing him." His standpoint was that he wouldn't want our son to be made fun of when he has to change in front of other boys (or feel like he can't change in front of them), or feel like he is "different", or feel insecure with his body in front of a woman.

Well, I am an intact (not circumcised) and I can't say that I never felt like that. Whether in a locker room or with women. And just to say this before you ask, I never cared what my father looked like, he is and at the time it was a non-issue. There is a good thread that I think you should read about the circumcision and women's issue here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1011034

The bottom line is that in the world your son will grow up in he will have peers who are also intact. Further, there is so much information out there that most boys and girls will know the difference anyway making it a non-issue. Long gone are the days where girls in the US will be utterly unfamiliar with an intact penis. Hopefully, by the time your son is in his teens circumcision will be largely stopped anyway, that is my hope.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*
3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?

This is not an issue, drawing on my experience personally. When they are infants, toddlers, and even into childhood there is really no special care. Just wipe like a finger. At some point he will become retractable and if it occurs at an age where you are still bathing him you can suggest that he retracts, rinses, and replaces. You can actually mention it to him by four or five either way and if he can't do it he can't its not really a problem. If he doesn't reach that point until long after you've stop bathing him, and it does happen I couldn't until about 10 other may not until later. He will discover it on his own. Lets just say that there are other reasons to be retracting and replacing. And let me just asking kind of tongue and cheek, how hard do you think it is to get a boy to rub his penis in the shower.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*
These are my main reasons for considering it, but I do have reasons for not considering it.

1. I've heard of "botched" circs and it horrifies me.

This is a solid risk though look for a Dr or hospital staff to minimize and dismiss it. Also some complications may not be noticed until years later. Things such as tight erections from removing too much skin, poor cosmetic result, ect. If something like that occurs you proabably won't hear about it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*
2. The lack of pain relief given when the circ is done, and the excuse that "they dont feel it" or "it hurts but they wont remember it." That horrifies me as well.

Quite common, but whether they feel it or not doesn't change the ethics of the procedure. There are many groups of nerves to consider. A cream may numb the surface skin but the foreskin is double layered and cream may not fully numb it and it may not numb the nerves in the glans ect.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*
3. Son being unhappy that he was circed, and nothing we can do about fixing it after the fact.

This is a reasonable concern because he can never change it, not really anyway. If he is intact and wants to get circumcised he can it's not that complicated a procedure, though some people like to make it out to be. In my mind that is the only time (adulthood) that it can ethically be done (for cosmetic reasons).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*
I just want to get all of the info so we can make a better decision, and can be comfortable with our choice.

Please please please don't do it. It's cosmetic and not worth it. Ask all the questions you want we want you to be comfortable with leaving your boy intact.


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## vintagetroll (Apr 13, 2008)

I long for the day this is no longer a decision parents of boys will even need to make. No one has to sit around wondering what they have to cut off of their girls first thing. I always knew I wouldn't circ but I feel bad that new mommies even have to imerse themselves in this kind of decision.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
One last thing I want to mention: one of the primary functions of the foreskin is sexual.
Hope all this info helps!

Oh I can attest to that.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

you got great answers here, btw congrats on your baby!!!







:







:

let him decide, it's not our decision to make.

I have a boy and he is intact, sooo easy to clean and no problems either









and he IS perfect!

Blessings to you!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

just wanted to add that, yes, there is a reason 50% of american boys are circ'd the real question is whether or not it is a good reason.

also - while america may by 50/ 50 (which btw is not most...so he will be in good company during the time he spends naked in school) the rest of the world is something like 80% intact... so obviously there is no reason to circ since 80% of perfectly healthy men are intact.

my little story- when my doctor asked if we were circing i said no. he said 'good there is no reason to circumcise, americans only do it b/c it is covered by insurance and they don't know any better" some insurance companies are no longer covering it b/c it is cosmetic.

last thing- this will be hard on your fiance. he does not want to not circ... b/c that would be acknowledging that the foreskin is necessary, functional, and not dangerous. he is circ'd ... he has no foreskin. he wants the foreskin to be useless, harmful, and totally unnecessary,... he also wants most men to be circ's b/c he doesn't want to be lacking in some way.

there is a good chance none of that is conscious thought.. but it is there. no guy wants to think that he may be missing a key part of his penis.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Someone said to check out the circ video... where do I go about doing that? (are we talking an online video or one I need to get and watch at home?)
I'd love to see it.

Thanks!

haven't read every response in the thread, but i wanted to respond to this. just youtube "circumcision videos"; there are plenty! and i wanted to say, back when i was pg and before we knew we were having a girl, i started researching circ in case we had a boy. i wanted to know what we'd do.

well, i was leaning toward doing it before i saw a video of it--mostly because DH is circ'd and, like your fiance, kind of assumed his son should be as well. then i came on MDC and saw a link to some circ videos. 3 minutes into one video, i knew i could never, ever, ever do that to my child. luckily it wasn't hard to get DH on board, so if we ever do have a son, he will remain intact.

really, once you look into it, it is basically impossible IMO to decide to circ.


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## lovemybubus (Oct 2, 2007)

You have so many things to think about already. Lots of great info, and congrats on your little boy! Just wanted to say for me it has a lot to do with the fact that I view circ as an act of sexual violence. I wouln't want my dd sexually violated as an infant and I don't want my son to be either. Think about his first days out of utero being met with such violence! I can't even imagine why or how it's legal. It breaks my heart. I hope your fiancee can be talked to openly and honestly about this. Good luck and congratulations again!


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
As an infant, the skin in not retractable, making cleanliness difficult (say the Drs??) I read another post on here and got confused a little about the word "retract". It said something about the skin eventually will retract on it's own and that forced retraction can cause trauma to the area and soreness, etc. If I'm understanding this right, when does the skin become "loosened" (general term as I really do not know what I'm talking about here, lol) and able to be retracted?

I have 3 intact boys. All I did as babies was wipe the outside of their skin with a wipe if they pooped and washed them with water in the bath. Nothing could be simpler.
As for retraction...my 6yo is absolutely NOT retractable at all, my 4yo is, my 2yo mostly is (as far as I've seen him do it). The average age (not the average in the U.S. thanks to unknowledgable doctors) for retraction is 10+ years old. But sometimes it doesn't happen until after puberty. Even then, there's nothing WRONG with that.

Bottom line, it is not MY foreskin, it is my sons, and he should be allowed to make decisions about its alteration just like any other part of the body.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

When you see your baby boy, you will see why you don't need to worry about cleaning. It is literally shaped like a little firehose and nothing about it looks like it should even remotely be "pulled back." I don't know what people were smoking when they came up with that one.

The foreskin is akin to the clitoral hood. Would you let anyone cut off your daughter's clitoral hood? Probably just thinking about that makes your stomach turn, right? Your son's foreskin is a healthy, functioning part of him, just like your daughter's clitoral hood.

I beg you on behalf of your unborn son - let HIM decide. It can always be cut off later if he so chooses, but can never be put back. PLEASE leave the decision of what to do with the penis up to the owner of said penis.


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Hello!







Congratulations on your pregnancy!







It's great that you are researching this *before* your ds is born.

I'm writing from the perspective of an older woman with adult sons. I made many mistakes raising them; it's a part of parenthood. Children don't come with instructions, so often you will guess wrong when it comes to child-raising. One thing I did right, however, was to leave them intact. As adult men, they are VERY happy they have their foreskins!







Nobody has any issues about their cleanliness, either--they both take daily showers. Considering that over 80% of their peers were circ'ed, they feel that they dodged a bullet.

I'm sooo glad I left them as nature made them!







:


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## mtchen79 (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi mama, congrats on your baby - you and I are due the same month







.

There is no true danger to keeping a baby boy intact. It's his genital so it should be his choice. It's a painful procedure as an adult or newborn, but an adult will receive appropriate anesthesia and from my understanding, because the foreskin can retract by then and an adult male is able to have erections, the procedure isn't quite as much of a very rough "guesstimate" like with a newborn. At least the adult can consent and know what's involved ahead of time. A newborn baby has no idea what is happening and so early in life, doesn't know who or what to trust which is why you are the mama - to protect him from any harm. If all baby boys in the world are born with foreskin, then it can't be an error or defect on nature's part - obviously there is a function associated with it beyond just being some random extra flap of skin.

Yes, there are definitely real risks involved with the procedure of newborn circumcision, including death. I thought I would've circ'd my first child had she been a boy and now that I've done more research, am sooo glad that she was a girl - and of course she is not circumcised either so why should a boy be treated like his genitals are any different?

I do remember reading somewhere (sorry I can't legitimately quote or post a source) that a baby starts having memory before birth, even if they supposedly "won't remember" the circ procedure is what parents are often told. That makes me very sad to think that this kind of activity is justified for that reason alone because a newborn boy didn't do anything to ask for his genital to be cut and circumcision isn't a birthright - being intact is.


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## BnInTheOvn (Oct 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
bolding mine. Yeah... soreness the same way ripping your fingernails off would cause soreness. Intense searing pain might be more accurate.

Yes, eventually the foreskin will retract, pull back, on its own. You still don't need to worry about it. The owner of the penis, when old enough to do so (7,8, 9 +) AND naturally retractable, should retract, rinse, replace at bath time.

Most boys become retractable somewhere between 2yrs and 18 yrs.

It can be done later under general anesthesia with post op. pain medication. Both things unavailable to a newborn.

Tearing off a fingernail is akin to the separation of the foreskin from the glans. The cutting would be akin to cutting off your earlobes or lips or other bit of skin....

SURE! there's a reason for it. It was thought to reduce masturbation. It doesn't. But the good ol' USA isn't big on evidence-based medicine.

Well, it's quite likely he'll know more intact peers than circed ones. And if he's intact, he can always get circed later. If he's circed he's SOL.

Never mind if he moves to Europe. Where nearly everyone is intact.

The beauty of the intact penis is that nothing really needs to be done until they're old enough that they're already going to be erm, handling it









Do you worry with your girls that you'll have to hold them down and really clean in all those folds when they're 5-10? Sounds pretty horrifying, huh?

There are NO reasons for doing it. None. It's an awful, barbaric process that should be outlawed.

-Angela

Ok, one more question. (and for the sole fact of Im afraid of what pornography might come up and my daughter is in the room, I am not googling it to see for myself at the moment)... Is it THAT different looking?? The only uncirced penis I have seen is in the video previously posted, and that is on an infant, so...
I know it looks different, but is it something that at a glance youd be like "WOAH! Whats that?!" if youd never seen it before?
(sounds silly, yes, but I am curious. lol)


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## mother culture (Oct 19, 2004)

Because natural boys are 100% of what they were born with. Easy to care for , no pain, no scar, no worries.


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Ok, one more question. (and for the sole fact of Im afraid of what pornography might come up and my daughter is in the room, I am not googling it to see for myself at the moment)... Is it THAT different looking?? The only uncirced penis I have seen is in the video previously posted, and that is on an infant, so...
I know it looks different, but is it something that at a glance youd be like "WOAH! Whats that?!" if youd never seen it before?
(sounds silly, yes, but I am curious. lol)


Yes, it is different looking. For me, I had only seen cut penises before my son, so it did take a short bit of time to get used to. Now, HIS penis looks normal and cut penises look weird to me (sorry DH!). Maybe because I am so against circumcision at this point? Both of my nephews are circed and it is painful for me to see them (like in the bath when they stay with me). Just breaks my heart that my sister _knew_ better and circed them anyway.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, I was with an intact man for 8 months and never knew till he told me. So no, it;s not that much different, looks wise. Course, it wasn't that type of relationship where we felt comfortable just kinda looking at each other parts and pieces.

There is a really good site I found via MDC once, I will see if I can bump the thread up if I can find it. It's graphic but not pornographic, and it shows exactly what it looks like and how the foreskin works.

There is another one someone posted, I don't know if its still here or where it is, but it was a poll they found on another site. It asked teenage girsl if they prefer circumcised or not and the large majority voted for intact.

Thank you for doing the research for your son. He deserves it, and is lucky to be born to a Momma who educates herself to do the best for him.


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## Nandi (Jul 12, 2008)

It is different looking in that there is no scarring or discoloration. Generally the glans is more pink because it has the protection of the foreskin. During erections the foreskin naturally pulls back to expose the glans. This is when it is usually very similar to the circ'd look. You definitely wouldn't say "Whoa what's that?" You'd recognize it as a penis very easily.
I would be happy to email you a picture if you like.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Yes and no. IMO, once you've seen an intact infant, circed infants and children look mutilated. Raw and pitiful.

When it's your baby and they're whole and perfect- it's just your baby.

-Angela


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

just a gentle reminder that whether or not it looks the same should not be a reason to circumcise. permanently altering the penis of a non consenting individual especially in the name of cosmetics is wrong. it is your son's penis, he will never wish you had circumcised him but there is a good chance he will wish you had not. Especially considering the rate is dropping.


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## 3pink1blue (Jun 23, 2008)

I bumped that thread with links for you. Please check it out when your daughter isn't around. It really shows you how the foreskin works, and when i saw it, it really made sense to me what they meant by retractible, the gliding motion, etc. And made me so happy I didn't take that away from my baby.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Ok, one more question. (and for the sole fact of Im afraid of what pornography might come up and my daughter is in the room, I am not googling it to see for myself at the moment)... Is it THAT different looking?? The only uncirced penis I have seen is in the video previously posted, and that is on an infant, so...
I know it looks different, but is it something that at a glance youd be like "WOAH! Whats that?!" if youd never seen it before?
(sounds silly, yes, but I am curious. lol)

Do you want a link to a clinical picture of an intact man? That way no googling and if you want, tell me what browser you're using and I'll tell you how to clear the history so your daughter won't stumble on anything?

I'll also tell you, again tongue and cheek that when it's ready for 'business' they often don't look too different.

ETA: Link to an article discussing normal development of intact boys, with two pictures:
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/

Link to a discussion of 'foreskin coverage/circumcision'
Warning NSFW -- flaccid and erect penises but clinical.
There is a lot of variation and intact men start at #4 and go forward.
http://www.newforeskin.biz/CI/CIchart.htm

ETA: Clearing your cache and history: http://kb.iu.edu/data/ahic.html


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
Ok, one more question. (and for the sole fact of Im afraid of what pornography might come up and my daughter is in the room, I am not googling it to see for myself at the moment)... Is it THAT different looking?? The only uncirced penis I have seen is in the video previously posted, and that is on an infant, so...
I know it looks different, but is it something that at a glance youd be like "WOAH! Whats that?!" if youd never seen it before?
(sounds silly, yes, but I am curious. lol)

Yes, it looks different... But so what? That's what its _supposed_ to look like, kwim?









FWIW, DS's penis was the first intact penis I had ever seen IRL and the only other one since then was my nephew.







But now when I see a baby or child that is circ'd, it creeps me out.

But to be honest, none of the circ'd penises that I've ever seen look the same anyway and even my DS and my nephew have very different looking penises and they are both intact.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I also wanted to add that basically the only risk he would face in remaining intact is in encountering ignorant people (and no, that is not a good reason to have a healthy body part amputated). This includes medical personnel, such as the ones you have said told you that you may have difficulty cleaning an intact penis. You have to be very careful not to allow anyone to retract your son's foreskin. He should be the first (and probably the only, aside from future sexual partners) person to retract his foreskin. This may have been posted before and it is definitely addressed in the stickies, but I just wanted to address that specifically.

There are no INHERENT risks to keeping your son's foreskin as it was intended. But you do need to be careful about who you consult for advice on any redness, trauma, urinary problems, etc. Just as you would not want to take your daughter to the ped for sore red labia and be told that she needs to have parts of her genitalia removed, you should be careful to avoid the same for your son.

And just in case you haven't seen this yet: http://www.nocirc.org/publish/pamphlet4.html


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## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Hi! I also wanted to chime in and say that whatever you decide to do for your baby, it's your baby who will live with the consequences. I hope you choose to leave your baby as nature intended..whole and intact.

I'm so glad I kept my son whole, I couldn't have lived with myself if i would have let the doctor circumcise him. Studies have shown that intense pain like circ permanently alters the infants brain (so much for 'he won't remember it'), and makes them more reactive to painful stimuli like needles and shots. Some men have said that they have remembered their circ when they were day old infants.

Best guide is your own internal motherly instincts that will urge you to protect your new baby.

Congratulations on your upcoming birth!


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
No medical organization in the world endorses RIC not even the AAP. Even if they use anesthetic you have a raw open wound in the diaper with pee and poo how sanitary can that possibly be.

There is no medical reason for infant circ. The study showing UTI more common with intact was flawed in that they used intact premature infants compared to full term circed infants. Premies always have higher risk for UTI.

There is no bad things that can come from not circing but there are complications that can and do happen when circ is done.

All male mammals are born with a foreskin (except the bat) it is there for many reasons, to protect the glans from being rubbed in clothing and causing loss of sensation due to constant exposure to the air and clothing it protects from bacteria entering the urethra.

I could go on and on but you didnt request that so I wont. Just keep in mind that your ds has a right to full sexual function just like your dd has. Removing the foreskin removes that from happening. Yes the penis still works but it dosnt work the way nature ment for it to. The foreskin bunching actually provideds g-spot stimulation you cant get without it.

Have you watched the circ video? You need to if you havnt and see for yourself exactly what is done. Reading the description makes me sick and I couldnt get past the first minute of the video







: I had dh watch it a few months back since he was still ok with circ he had no idea how horrible it really was









Link to the video http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=481025

How the foreskin works movable images http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=695216

Penn & Teller video http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=999187

For more information the resources sticky is great.

The circ rate in the USA right now is around 54% with it dropping fast. Approx. 1% a year. Some states are lower than others. But I refuse to base my decisions on what anyone else is doing and even if the circ rate in the USA was 100% my ds would still be intact.

wow.
seeing the videos on the thread you linked have totally blown my mind, and just confirm why i left my little son intact. my poor, poor dh. my goodness, what he (and, selfishly, I) have lost due to his RIC. so sad.

i had never actually seen an intact penis "work" before. i assumed the skin was thicker than it actually is, and somehow, someday, it would get ugly (due to comments i've heard about intact men, from circing people...), but seeing the real thing, i realize it's not at all. it's as thin and delicate as an eyelid, and the intact penis is lovely. amazing.

to the OP...
watch the videos.


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3pink1blue* 
The foreskin is akin to the clitoral hood. Would you let anyone cut off your daughter's clitoral hood? Probably just thinking about that makes your stomach turn, right? Your son's foreskin is a healthy, functioning part of him, just like your daughter's clitoral hood.


This is what I always focus on when I think of circumcision. Would you have ever considered letting your newborn daughter be strapped down and have her clitoral hood forcibly separated from her clitoris (it too is attached at birth) with a blunt probe and then have it sliced off? Can you wrap your mind around that scenario? I can't. Would you still do it even if you were guaranteed 100% pain free? (Which is impossible anyway). No I don't think you would. It sounds abhorent to our ears in this culture because we consider it barbaric to do that to baby girls. But it isn't any different than what is so willingly done to baby boys. People are just conditioned to see one as mutilation and another as a normal post birth procedure.

I feel the need to add that yes there are varying degrees of female genital mutilation. Some are more horrific than others and remove all external genitals. But if someone proposed *only* removing the clitoral hood, which is one form, you would still find it unacceptable wouldn't you? Structurally the clitoris is analogous to the head of the penis and the clitoral hood is analogous to the male foreskin.

Other cultures that mutilate baby girls raise the same arguments that people here use for circumcising baby boys. It looks better, it is cleaner, she will be shunned if it isn't done. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. Please imagine your daughter having this done every time you even consider doing it to your baby boy.

I know you have been given a lot of awesome information and links. Please study them and research. And thank you for questioning this in the first place. So many don't.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

I think circ should be the child's choice.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Sorry I left the computer alone with DS after I was reading.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

A few quick thoughts on the topic:

My former neighbor is a nurse. She is a relatively mainstream person, but told me that she would never let her son be circed after having seen the procedure done.

About how it looks: The circ rate is dropping quickly in this country. In some areas it's already less than 50%. So by the time our babies grow up, circ is not going to be at all rare.

A quick story about us: When I was pregnant with our first, we were on the fence about circ. I felt I could go either way, and dh finally decided that he'd like his sons to look like him (I can't believe we ever actually said these things, but there it is). Our son was born, and as they came to take him for the circ, we couldn't do it. We just couldn't turn over this beautiful, perfect, happy, sleeping baby to go under the knife for a cosmetic procedure. We told them we'd come back next week to do it. (At this point they tried to intimidate us by saying insurance wouldn't cover it after 48 hours, etc.) In the next few days dh was discussing the issue with his sister, and mentioned the whole looking alike thing. Sister pointed out to him that their father, who was born in El Salvador, was intact. Dh never knew this. It was then that he realized how completely unimportant it was to their relationship that they had matching penises. I mean, now, we feel so stupid for ever even considering that as a valid reason!

Anyhow, we haven't circed either of our boys, havn't regretted it for a minute. The only downside is that now that dh knows so much more about it, he is really bummed that he is circed!


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## nummies (Jun 9, 2007)

Mama, you have already gotten some really great advice and lots of facts.

I want to share with you my story and hopefully save you from feeling this way.

Before we had my son, I didn't research circumcision at all. DH is circ'd and we just agreed to do it. At the time, I thought it was "just what you did". After the birth, I was having second thoughts. I just had this feeling at the pit of my belly telling me "don't do it." My mama instincts were trying to tell me something and I didn't listen.







So they did it and I felt awful. Crying hyserically about it day after day. DH thought it was just having some baby blues. Then I found Mothering. Started reading about it and what happened to him. I found the circ video and threw up. DH and I talked about it and I told him I was never doing that to another child. He said "ok" and we left it at that. DH started doing his own research and we found the site about how circing hurts women (mostly related to sexual issues). And DH came to me crying. Saying how could we have done this...etc. After much research, DH decided to restore his foreskin. He has been doing that for around 9 months now. It is a long road but he is gaining a lot. We plan to tell DS how sorry we are. How we shouldn't have made that choice for him. How daddy is different because he has been restored. We will teach him about restoration and he can make the choice for himself.

Why do I feel so strongly about it? Because I put my son through that torture FOR NO REASON. And why did I share this with you? Because if I can save one baby boy from feeling that pain and save one mother from feeling the intense sadness that I feel, then it will be worth it. I can't sleep at night, I am depressed during the day. Because of THIS.

Deep in your mama heart, you know that something isn't right about strapping a newborn baby to a table and cutting off part of his genitals. Would you send your daughter to be circ'd? Would you remove her clitoral hood (also known as female genital mutilation) FOR NO REASON?

I urge you to read through the Mothers who regret sticky at the top of this forum. There are so many of us that wish that we had done the kind of research that you are doing and left our children whole. Don't do it mama.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

*Please read this post.* It has a ton of food info, videos, studies.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=822675


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn*


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey there, if you're still reading here is a 24 page doc on the procedure (all the possible current ones). http://tinyurl.com/5eq4cz

WARNING NSFW and GRAPHIC.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

: yeah for you for getting all the facts!! IMO that the important part!


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

The simple answer is not to circumcise anybody.

There is no harm from not circumcising.

I have 2 boys aged 15 and 11 and neither has ever had any problems with their penis and its foreskin.

We are in the UK and we are considered totally normal; not wacko, crazy, irresponsible, crunchy, or anything else. Just normal.


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

this!!

UK here too, routine, non religious, non medically indicated circ does not exist here, just as with the rest of Europe. Estimated over 90% of the population are intact (the ones that are not are mostly Jewish or Muslim)

Yet, you don't hear of countless people going off for circs later in life, they're all pretty happy with their penises so it seems... and everyone who I've talked to about RIC as it is done in the USA is utterly shocked and horrified. It's a cultural mindset and I think that stops many Americans from seeing the true horror that is circumcision.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
The simple answer is not to circumcise anybody.

There is no harm from not circumcising.

I have 2 boys aged 15 and 11 and neither has ever had any problems with their penis and its foreskin.

We are in the UK and we are considered totally normal; not wacko, crazy, irresponsible, crunchy, or anything else. Just normal.


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## calebsmommy25 (Aug 23, 2008)

Congrats on the pregnancy!







:

I was on the fence my whole pregnancy, and even after he was born on what to do. It was the norm in my life to circ, and same in my boyfriends. We ended up deciding against it, and all the things that made me teeter the other way of getting it done, now seem so silly to me. It was one of the biggest sources of turmoil for me until we finally made the choice not to. We are so thankful and happy with our choice. I hope all the information here is helpful.

I also wanted to add that I think it is great that you are actively searching out the absolute best for your son. He is one blessed boy to have such a loving Mama!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't read past this, but will address these points, anyway...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
I have SO MANY questions!! And my reasonings for considering it are as follows:

1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.

I don't remember the source, but I've seen quotes that show quite clearly that the original reason for routine infant circumcision in North America was an attempt to promote "moral cleanliness". That is, it was believed that they could stop boys from masturbating by amputating a very sensitive piece of their penises. The biggest "reason" it continues is force of habit...men who don't want their sons to be intact, because they aren't, and I've even seen quotes from women saying they'll circ their sons, so that they have a "prettier" penis.

Quote:

2. My fiance is circed, and when I even brought it up, he said "We are circ-ing him." His standpoint was that he wouldn't want our son to be made fun of when he has to change in front of other boys (or feel like he can't change in front of them), or feel like he is "different", or feel insecure with his body in front of a woman.
Circ rates are dropping in the US. They're lower here in Canada. My 15 year old ds1 has never expressed any feeling that he's a freak or different because he's intact. In terms of feeling insecure with women, I've heard more than one woman say that after being with an intact man, she won't have sex with one who is circ'd. Of the women I know who don't go that far, but have had sex with both, _every_ one of them prefers a partner who is intact. I can't say from personal experience, as men of my generation were almost all circ'd, so I've never had a chance to experience sex the way it's supposed to be...but from all accounts, it's more pleasurable and far less likely to cause soreness. This isn't an issue.

Quote:

3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?
Cleaning is not an issue. Once the foreskin retracts, a swish through bath water or letting shower water run on it is perfectly adequate. DS2 isn't quite 3.5, and he cleans his own penis in the tub, including his foreskin (his started to retract very young). It's not a problem at all.

ETA: I don't know if you and/or your fiance have thought about the "he needs to look like daddy" argument, but if so, I want to counter that, too. We don't go around routinely giving infant boys a hair transplant into their genital region, so the "look like daddy" excuse is self-evidently idiotic. Infant penises don't look like that of a grown man, whether they're both circ'd, both intact, or one of each.


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## sewingmama (Mar 15, 2007)

I haven't read the other responses, and other people can give you more detailed medical info and all, but I just wanted to chime in as a mother of two intact boys, one preschool age and one just a few weeks old. Neither has had any problems whatsoever, and I'm glad we have chosen to leave them intact. I hope they will choose to remain that way, but at least I am not going to take the choice away from them. Quite simply, it's not my body and not my choice to make. (Thankfully my DH has always agreed with me that we don't want to do it, and it's been a total non-issue around our house.)

I also can't imagine putting a newborn through all that pain, both during the surgery and in the days afterward. Even with the gentle births we've had, being born and adjusting to life outside the womb is still so much for a newborn to process; I make it such a point in the first several weeks to nurse my newborn on cue, cuddle him a lot, etc., and it just goes against every maternal instinct I have to think about choosing painful elective cosmetic surgery for my baby in the absence of compelling medical information. And from a selfish standpoint, it would be a lot more for *me* to deal with immediately postpartum when I'm dealing with hormone changes, milk coming in, lochia, etc. Not going to make things harder for myself, for sure!

Bottom line: just leave him alone and enjoy him the way he is.







And congrats -- I've enjoyed having boys way more than I even thought I would!


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Our 9 mo boy is intact.







Dh wanted to circ. We talked about it a lot. If our first had been a boy, he probably would have been circ'd, but fortunately, we had a girl.

I went through a process after dd was born where I re-evaluated why we would have circ'd a boy, and realized it didn't really make sense on balance.

It took a long time to convince dh. In the end, he only seemed to relent because I was so upset about the alternative. It was tough.

After our son was born (maybe a month or two after), he told me that he was glad ds wasn't circ'd. That he really did think it was better and he was glad we didn't do that to him. It was hard for him to get there, but he got there.

We've had no problems with the intact penis. Looks great, works great, no probs!

My dad and brother are both intact. They're the ones who got me thinking about it. They're both very happy the way they are and have never had any problems. No one in my dad's family has been circ'd, ever . . . his parents were from Russia and Germany. Just not done there.

My brother grew up intact in the midwest of the U.S. and he never had any problems with teasing or any other issues about being intact.

I am so, so glad our ds is intact. I know we did the right thing.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I'd like to specifically adress the "pros" of circ.

UTI prevention: even if one takes the nonrandomized studies at face value, the potetial benefit is not great enough to out way the potential risks. The risk of UTI for an inact boy is 1%; The risk of severe bleeding during the circ or post op infection is 2%, the risk of meatal stenosis is 10%, the risk of adhessions is 70%.
STD, HIV, AIDS prevention: Aside from all the studies having huge flaws, your son should not be having sex till he is a teenager, by which time he will be old enough to make his own choices and several more years of research into these illnesses may have changed the issues. So, if you have your DS circ'd to prevent HIV now and they have a vaccine in ten years...
Cervical cancer prevention: The 1920s study that this was based on has been _proven_ completely inaccurate.
Penile cancer prevention: Again this is based on flawed studies but taking it at face value, the risks of circ out weigh the risk of penile cancer. Penile cancer is extremely rare and generally happens to men in their 70s or 80s. The risk of death from penile cancer in old age is lower than the risk of death during the circ of a healthy infant.
Masterbation prevention: It doesn't work, and even if it did would you want it to?
Cleanliness: I've cleaned both my intact son, and circed babies I have baby sat. Just trust me, intact is easier.
Cosmetic appearance: While attractiveness is always open to interpretation, intact penises are veiwed in most places around the world as the natural norm. No one ever complains about Michealangelo's "David." (Though the historical David would be circ'd the statue is intact.)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

To me the argument goes like this. Leaving the child whole as he was born or cut off a perfectly designed, functional body part of an infant just hours or days after he is born.

That is the reality of the situation. Reading that I totally don't understand how there is even a doubt as to the answer.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 

That is the reality of the situation. Reading that I totally don't understand how there is even a doubt as to the answer.

ITA!

Just the thought of cutting off part of someone elses genitals just seems like such a strange thing to do...if you forget about culture and tradition and all the other nonsense that surrounds this issue and bring it down to it's core it's laughable (if it weren't so disturbing)..

anyone considering male genital mutilation is contemplating cutting off part of someone elses genitals...it's weird!


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## AGierald (Sep 5, 2007)

I just wanted to add that Im so glad I found this forum when I was in your place, OP. I just thought circ'ing was what you did, something that had to be done, and thankfully, I learned that is false.

My son is almost 9 months, and i've never had to do ANYTHING special to his penis to clean it. Its even easier to clean than a baby girl's genitalia is, IMO. And once that baby is about 6 months and realizes "Hey, whats that thing down there? Lets play with it!" Believe me, you will understand that when he is 5-10, you';ll be more worried about whether he cleaned behind his ears, lol.

As for the husband, I made the decision, and he dealt with it. At this point, he now realizes we made the right choice. And I think he's starting to realize what he's missing. I dont' want him to be sad or angry at his parents, but I do want him to realize that he left his son with somethig that was taken from him, ya know?


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?


I haven't read all the replies so please forgive if this has already been stated but you will not have any difficulty in having your son keep clean when he's older. I'm not trying to be overly crude but...boys masterbate in the shower all the time! So it's really not that hard to get an older boy to play with his penis during shower time. Plus, anytime a boy/man thinks there is even a remote chance that he can get a girlfriend/date to touch his penis in any way possible, he's going to make sure it's nice and clean (that goes for both circed and intact boys). Teenage boys think about sex quite a bit. Trust me, he'll keep it clean. It's a possibility he won't even be retractable until pre-teen or teenage years, so don't worry too much about it during that time. Just remind him to periodically rinse off his manly bits just like you'd remind him to floss his teeth or clean his ears.

My little boy is intact and has never had any issues at all. I must say though, even if I could have been 100% assured he would suffer no pain or complications, I still wouldn't have had him circumcised. To me, the pain, as awful as it is, is just a temporary issue. It boils down to the foreskin is _his_ body part and it's healthy and functional and he was born with it. It's not mine to alter. It's just my job to love him exactly as he is.
He doesn't match his circed daddy but he doesn't match his sister or his mother either. And despite all of that, we were all able to learn to use the toilet and we can all sleep well at night. We've never once sat around and compared genitals, so it's really a non-issue in our family.

Here are a few more links in case nobody else has posted them:

http://nocircpa.org/4642.html

http://www.homiegfunk.com/RIC2.htm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm

http://noharmm.org/appeal.htm (might be a good one to have your partner read)

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9985.html (from a Dr. posted on Health Central)

If you haven't already, please search for photos and videos of infant circumcision and photos of botched circs.
Good luck to you. I hope you choose to keep your son intact. I promise, it's very easy to take care of an intact child.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
[*]Penile cancer prevention: Again this is based on flawed studies but taking it at face value, the risks of circ out weigh the risk of penile cancer. Penile cancer is extremely rare and generally happens to men in their 70s or 80s. The risk of death from penile cancer in old age is lower than the risk of death during the circ of a healthy infant.

Important to mention that cancer can grow on circumcision scars:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860

The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft
http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstr...195629!8091!-1


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AGierald* 
Its even easier to clean than a baby girl's genitalia is, IMO.

I SOOO totally agree. Every time I wash my daughter's privets, I think about just HOW MUCH EASIER it is to wash my intact son's privets.

I should have circ her...all those folds are such a headache!


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## Belletheacd (Jan 11, 2007)

Hi Mama,

Congratulations on your new baby.

First I would like to say that before you make any decision, look back in the archives and find the posts here from Mamas who wish they never would have circ'd. The guilt and rage they feel is very apparent in their posts. They can never take that moment back, and many say if they could have only gone back in time they would have ran out of the Ped office/hospital with their perfect little son and his perfect little penis!

My son is 18 months old, and intact. My husband is circ'd, but was REALLY anti-circ once we started having babies (thank you Howard Stern!!!)

My point to this is life with a circ'd husband and intact son is no big deal. He watches Daddy pee, and he thinks it is great, just as if he Daddy looked just like him. If you don't make him feel like HE is the odd duck, than he won't be. The truth is your husband will have to give up a little manhood, which is so hard for some guys, and tell him that his penis is the one that is not natural, and your son's is perfect. I thank my lucky stars my husband has no problem with this, but maybe yours will. It is your husband's responsibility to break the chain of mutilation. Don't let his pride get in the way of what is right.

Plus, if my husband ever told me that I had to circ my baby, I would tell him to sit down and zip it. Good thing he agreed! (thanks again Howard Stern!!)

Good luck! You have some awesome information in this thread!


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## mamanurse (Jan 22, 2006)

My dh and I were completely ignorant regarding circumcision until following the birth of our dd1. Before becoming educated on the topic, I had never considered not circing my son. It just seemed like it was the thing to do.

Once I'd done my research, I asked dh what he thought and he wanted to circ. I presented information to him and he is now an even bigger intactavist than I am. He's even gotten into an argument with his bestfriend over the issue. He feels robbed of his foreskin and the plesure it might have provided.

Reasons we both changed our minds.

1) Boys are born that way and even the American Association of Pediatrics doesn't recomend routine infant circumcision.

2) One of dh's reasons to circ was so his son would look like him. Well... my dd's labia don't look like mine and I'm certainly not going to get surgery on her to make them mirror me.

3) The foreskin has a function and taking it off of a penis disturbs the natural pleasure/protection it provides.

4) The majority of America is not ciricing any longer.

5) Europeans don't circ and their penises are fine.

I hope you make an informed decision on this OP, as circing is one that can't be reversed.


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## asunlitrose (Apr 19, 2008)

I'll put a link to my site (why not?):

http://emmagfunk03.googlepages.com/circumcision


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
ITA!

Just the thought of cutting off part of someone elses genitals just seems like such a strange thing to do...if you forget about culture and tradition and all the other nonsense that surrounds this issue and bring it down to it's core it's laughable (if it weren't so disturbing)..

anyone considering male genital mutilation is contemplating cutting off part of someone elses genitals...it's weird!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.

I could not agree more.


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## CellarDoor (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.

ITA, but when I bring up the subject to a person who lives in a circ'ing culture and thinks it's *totally normal* I tend to tread lightly. Preaching has never gotten me very far! Unfortunately, male circ IS a choice for any parent in this country and it's always better IMO to present the information and leave the "ah ha" moment up to them. Of course, I've only just started my intactivism, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on!


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaClaire* 
ITA, but when I bring up the subject to a person who lives in a circ'ing culture and thinks it's *totally normal* I tend to tread lightly. Preaching has never gotten me very far! Unfortunately, male circ IS a choice for any parent in this country and it's always better IMO to present the information and leave the "ah ha" moment up to them. Of course, I've only just started my intactivism, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on!









: I've also found this. If you rage on at them about mutation they just feel like the are being pelted with granola by a crazy woman in an ivory tower on a horse on a soap box.

Although, on the inside I'm on my horse in my tower chucking granola. Thats the inside tho, its weird in there


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
The idea that "well yes, it hurts, but the baby will never remember it" is just horrifying to me. My daughter broke her leg at 1 year, and wont remember it. But that doesnt mean it didnt hurt so I should break the other one too... I just hate that form of reasoning that they wont remember it. I cant imagine hurting a little baby like that.
In a different post it was compared to tearing off a fingernail, is that accurate??

A friends son does remember his circ, and told his mom about it in detail as a child... the really sad part is they did it in the hospital despite the parents saying they dod NOT want him circ'd.

Another friend's baby is 2.5mo and still screams during diaper changes. What does it do to a baby to have the most sensitive part of your body.. .your sex organ partially amputated as one of your first life experiences?







: Gives me the chills to think about it.
I'll tell you from personal experiencethat sex with an intact man is on a whole different level. PM me if you want more info on that.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

BnInTheOven--One other thing to do while deciding is to stop using the term "uncirced". You are not undoing anything when you leave your baby intact. You are leaving your baby as he was born--natural and perfectly intact.

I think the terms "uncirced" and "uncut" perpetuate the idea that circumcision is normal and that to not circumcise takes a lot of effort and action. And it does not, it is very simple, leave your baby as is.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
Teenage boys think about sex quite a bit. Trust me, he'll keep it clean.

Although I am an intactivist and my boys are intact, I have to disagree with this.

I know quite a few teenaged boys, and some of them still have to be prodded to shower daily. My almost 17yo is one of them, and a few of my boys' friends have admitted to not showering all that often. I can't speak for the other boys, but I inherited my son's computer when we upgraded his, and I found some pretty interesting things on it....I know he thinks about sex!

I also run into teens and grown men who can't be bothered to use deodorant and don't seem to have any sense of smell. They _look_ clean, but smell bad. Last night my two sons had two other boys sleeping over. They were all in the basement playing video games when I got home from work, and I could smell the stench of B.O. _on the first floor_. I hollered down the stairs and said "whoever smells like armpit needs to clean up and put on a fresh shirt." They all laughed and argued over who was the stinky one.









However, I think that daily showering/bathing is mostly a social issue, and not a health issue. So, while a guy might not smell very nice if he doesn't clean himself often enough, he's not necessarily going to do himself any harm (except in the dating arena). Europeans during the Middle Ages were filthy people, and I don't recall hordes of men dying from penile funk.


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Europeans during the Middle Ages were filthy people, and I don't recall hordes of men dying from penile funk.


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## tennisdude23 (Apr 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Europeans during the Middle Ages were filthy people, and I don't recall hordes of men dying from penile funk.

Ditto, this is precisely why the hygiene argument is baseless. Most Europeans in the Middle Ages died because of TB, dypheria, poor nutrition, the Plague, and alcohol related issues (the water was so polluted, they could only drink alcoholic beverages). Foreskin infections, though, never made to the top of that list. And by the way, a lot of teen guys, guys in their 20s do shower regularly, at least by the time college comes around.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tennisdude23* 
And by the way, a lot of teen guys, guys in their 20s do shower regularly, at least by the time college comes around.

One can only hope.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

This thread should really be stickied.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.* 
This thread should really be stickied.

Definitely a keeper; at least it should be kept bumped all the time.

Gillian


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix* 
BnInTheOven--One other thing to do while deciding is to stop using the term "uncirced". You are not undoing anything when you leave your baby intact. You are leaving your baby as he was born--natural and perfectly intact.

yes!! I have started saying this, I said "uncirced" a few times and then told myself, no, thats not right, I'm not the weirdo for wanting to leave my kid whole!!

Plus when you say "intact" people say "what?" then you get to explain and hopefully but a bug in someones ear about circumcision!


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

totally agree about the "uncirced"!! I always like to say..you don't call a complete brain without any missing parts "unlobotomised" do you


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Claire and Boys* 
totally agree about the "uncirced"!! I always like to say..you don't call a complete brain without any missing parts "unlobotomised" do you









True.. it just sounds weird like:

unamputated


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## crazyrunningmama (Dec 16, 2006)

Canada is doing a little better:

_The Maternity Experiences Survey, conducted in 2006 by the Public Health Agency of Canada, found an average national newborn circumcision rate of 31.9%.

The rates ranged widely across the country, from zero in Newfoundland and Labrador to 44.3%, with the highest rates in Alberta, Ontario and P.E.I._

Go Newfies!!!


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

Thank you all for your patience while the thread was being reviewed. Several posts have been removed because they discussed religion. Please keep in mine the Guidelines for posting in the Case Against Circumcision forum.

Quote:

The discussion of or reference to religion is outside of the scope of this forum. Any posts which bring any aspect of religion into the discussion are not appropriate and will be removed. Some discussions of this nature can be hosted in the Religious Studies forum which is a subforum of Spirituality, or in an existing tribal thread for the particular religious affiliation. We do maintain a list of websites in our Web Resources thread for further information on religious issues.
If your thread was removed, you will be contacted shortly and given the opportunity to edit or re-post to the thread. Feel free to contact me if you have any further questions.

BnInTheOvn, best wishes to you on your upcoming birth


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

The Maternity Experiences Survey, conducted in 2006 by the Public Health Agency of Canada, found an average national newborn circumcision rate of 31.9%.
I thought it was found to nationally be 10% last year? Or are they including non-routine circumcisions as well?

Jacque Savageau - Thank you for cleaning up and returning the thread - I think this is a wonderful resource that honestly either deserves a lot of bumping or a sticky. There's so much good info in here.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/s...hi-2005-e.html

This is what I found that says Canada's rates are down to 9.2 in 2005.

I don't know why the discrepancy.


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## momongeon (Oct 1, 2008)

Why would you sacrifice things like cold cuts, smoking, meds, or even alcohol to create this beautiful being and then cut part of him off. You work hard to make sure he is as healthy as possible. What makes you think that you need to remove a functional part of your son's body. I love that you are questioning this ridiculous procedure b/c being informed is the least we can do for our children. The more you know the worse it is. Trust me I see circs or the effects of circs just about everyday and I hate them more every time I go to work. I hate nothing more than when parents are afraid of taking pictures b/c the flash may hurt their eyes but then circ them hrs later or they do everything to stay intervention free during labor for the baby's sake and then intervene by CUTTING OFF a part of their son. It seem hypocritical if you ask me.

Now that that is out on the table I have not read through all of the thread but I am so sure you got all the info you need from this sub-forum. Think of our bodies as machines that will out live any man made machine. Everything has a function even the things we CAN live with out. The appendix which everyone seems to think has no value in the human body has been found to have some immunity significance. It has been shown to repair the flora in the gut following a bout of diarrhea. It is thought to help support the immune system of the fetus. This is not to say that people with out an appendix are $#!+ out of luck (pardon the pun) b/c the appendix is not necessary to fulfill those functions.

If the foreskin was SO INSIGNIFICANT then why has it not evolve out of the human anatomy? B/c it IS SIGNIFICANT. It has protective factors as well as having 20,000 erogenous nerve endings. When circumcising your child you are taking those nerve endings along with stripping off 50% of the shaft tissue. The glans, which is supposed to be moist to help lubricate the vagina during intercourse, becomes dried and calloused and causes friction and micro abrasions along the wall of the vagina.

The other point I will make is that you can NEVER get back what you have removed. They can go through a restoration process which from my understanding is far worse than having to be circ'd as an adult but they will never have the full benefits that being left intact can offer. You CAN NOT determine what your child will feel about this someday. He could feel resentment either way but I will NOT feel guilty about leaving the decision to him b/c as I said before you can't get it back and he has the power to make it the way HE wants it to be.

I will get off my soap box now. Thanks for listening and GL with your decision. I am sorry that I could not be unbiased.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momongeon* 

If the foreskin was SO INSIGNIFICANT then why has it not evolve out of the human anatomy?


And if it's so insignificant...why not just leave it alone? Why bother going through the pain of cutting it off?


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## momongeon (Oct 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
And if it's so insignificant...why not just leave it alone? Why bother going through the pain of cutting it off?

Exactly!!!


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## Dev (Oct 13, 2008)

Here is a Male's response&#8230;

The amputation of a male child's nerve enriched prepuce is a penile reduction surgical procedure that unfortunately still infects our civilized, capitalistic, and so-called "equal rights" society. Not only is the circumcision of male infants and young boys considered a human rights violation by many, it's a men's health issue and perpetuates an irrational belief in our country that all little boys are somehow born imperfect or faulty requiring surgical correction of their penises upon birth! This idea is a sick one and is absurd to not only me, but the vast majority of people on earth.

Evolution and God has perfected the human body making every part sacred, miraculous, useful and functional. Circumcising male children is medically unnecessary, disfiguring, disabling, unnatural, abusive, unethical, painful, and a profit driven surgical procedure confronted by parents of newborn boys in most American hospitals, especially in the mid-western states. It's a "cure" still in search of an identifiable disease. Most parents have and are given minimal knowledge about the appalling history, unjustifiable reasons, and adverse consequences of circumcision. Many parents and many physicians in America acknowledge the male prepuce as an "extra flap of skin" and are uneducated about its protective, sensory, and essential sexual functions. In my view, all lack common sense and many also lack the courage and intuition to follow their maternal / paternal instinct to protect children from easily avoidable harm, enough said.

I am grateful that the male newborn circumcision rate in America continues to decline with the current rate being about 55-60%. I am also grateful that ALL national and international medical associations do not recommend the practice of routine childhood circumcision for both boys and girls! I am deeply saddened and vitriolic that many Americans encourage and welcome circumcision surgeries for male children due to parents' personal preference and ignorance, cultural or societal influence, physicians' profits, numerous other irrational reasons, or flip of a coin.

My heart goes out to all those mama's and papa's who learned too late the adverse consequences of consenting to have their little boys circumcised. I commend them for standing up and spreading the word to end the practice and protect other boys. The regret in their voices is so sincere and painfully heartfelt. Their voices need to be heard to help end the still popular practice of amputating parts of male children's penises in the 21st century. It is highly probable that in your son's lifetime the U.S.A.'s 1996 Federal Female Genital Mutilation Act will be amended to protect the genital integrity rights of all little boys too. What a day it will be for rejoice as well as a reflection of sorrow and regret for the millions of males who have undergone genital cutting and unnecessary amputative surgeries without their consent.

If you do your research well, I am certain you will protect your son.
Best Regards and Many Blessings to your soon to be born, perfect Intact son, Devin


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## newlynaturaldad (Dec 20, 2008)

I am completely new to this site. And I am a DAD!! My son who is 6 was circ because I was uneducated in the topic before. Since I have met my current fiance, her and I have gone over alot of different topics with pregnancy, circ and homebirth. One particular topic that stuck out for me was circ. My son who is 6 again is circ but I am NOT! My fiance gave me all the cons of circ but I was still kind of on edge with my decision to our baby due in AUG! After she had shown me the video on how they do handle a circ, my face filled with sadness and tears and I held my son and apologized. For me the facts are there and I understand them, but if that didnt do it, the video alone would do it for ANYONE with a heart. To see a baby go thru all that pain and no medicine to numb it or anything... thats crazy!! and WITHOUT YOUR BABYS PERMISSION its ridiculous. Look at it this way, your son just came out of his comfort zone (your belly), hes shocked, getting poked and bothered, and than also that same day after all the shock and nonsense that is going on, they take away part of his man hood! Its ridiculous.
So if all the FACTS cant get you to make a good decision, All i ask is that you take the time and look at a video of the procedure and watch what happens. Let him make the decision when he's ready.


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## loveyourohana (Jul 14, 2008)

newlynaturaldad... your story is very close to myself and what I did to my son unknowing... I would take that dec. back in a heart beat.

I regret circing my son, and will never harm another little boy by not accepting all of him again!


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Please don't do it. Your son was born perfect. If he wasn't supposed to have a foreskin, he would not have been born with it. Do you really want to do wound care on a newborn?

You know better now, so it's your responsibility to act on that knowledge. You owe it to your child to leave his body the way it was created.


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## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BnInTheOvn* 
I have SO MANY questions!! And my reasonings for considering it are as follows:

1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.

.

No! It's the other way around. The reason that Europeans (and East asians, and Africans and South Americans and Australians and Canadians etc. etc. etc.) don't circ is that there _isn't_ a reason for it!


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