# Yes Ma'am, No Sir, Yeah, Whatever - Are you raising polite children?



## Mothering (Nov 4, 2010)

Do you believe "sir" and ma'am" shows respect and should be used by children when they speak to adults? Do you require your children to say "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me"? Is "yeah" and "whatever" acceptable? What about calling adults by their first name? Oh - how about table manners?

One of the biggest complaints of older adults today is the decline of manners and respect for elders in children, young and older. Have we loosened up on teaching etiquette to our children? Or has etiquette changed with the times to a point that we have tossed aside much of what we grew up with and feel it is no longer necessary?

What do you expect from your children? What does "polite" and "well- mannered" mean to you?


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

We insist on please, thank you, and you're welcome. We also have our little guy (2.5 years) say he "doesn't care" for something instead of "doesn't like" it.

I'm from a Southern background so we'll probably start having him call people Sir and M'am here soon. And we have him call adults by Mr. and Miss/Mrs. Lastname as applicable, although most of our adult friends insist that he call them by their first name.

Manners are very important in our family and I intend to raise polite children who are respectful of others. What we don't insist on is total deference to elders/authority. It's vital that they know that not every adult should be obeyed under every circumstance!


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## konayossie (Jul 29, 2010)

Of course we are teaching good manners "please, thank you, excuse me, etc." Really, does any conscientious parent NOT do this?

But I was not raised to say "ma'am" and "sir" and don't intend to raise my children to do so. My mom is from the south and my grandparents thought it was so rude that my siblings and I didn't use ma'm/sir and call all adults by Mr./Mrs/Ms. etc. In my state, though, it was perfectly normal/acceptable to call adults by first names unless they were "authority figures" like teachers. The child who used honorifics at all times was definitely the oddball around here. Some "manners" are entirely a matter of region.


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## MaerynPearl (Jun 21, 2008)

You would be surprised at the parents who think it's inappropriate to teach your children manners because its "forcing them to say something they may not mean"

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *konayossie*
> 
> Of course we are teaching good manners "please, thank you, excuse me, etc." Really, does any conscientious parent NOT do this?


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## konayossie (Jul 29, 2010)

I actually didn't know that is the thinking in some circles. Interesting. I totally understand about not forcing hugs, kisses, etc, but not sure good manners quite falls into the same category to me...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaerynPearl*
> 
> You would be surprised at the parents who think it's inappropriate to teach your children manners because its "forcing them to say something they may not mean"


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## aHikaru (Apr 12, 2011)

i'm not really teaching AE manners, considering she is only 2yrs 3 months. But i believe i lead by example because she already says, "pweez", "tank you" and my favorite, "squeeze me", which comes after she burps or something is in her way, including a table or toy.


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## aHikaru (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *konayossie*
> 
> I actually didn't know that is the thinking in some circles. Interesting. I totally understand about not forcing hugs, kisses, etc, but not sure good manners quite falls into the same category to me...


no hugs or kisses? AE is a big love bug and always has to kiss/hug everyone goodbye.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

We teach manners. We also teach that words do not equal manners. You can say "please" or "thank you" all you want, but if you're being rude, you're being rude. I'd rather hear a polite "can you do x for me?" than a rude "do x now please". "Sir" and "ma'am" is just useless drivel IMO.


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## carlymom (Sep 14, 2009)

My daughter is learning to say please, thank you, excuse me, etc. I also encourage apologies. However, I grew up calling my parents' friends by their first names and my daughter does the same. I never used "sir" or "ma'am," either, so neither will she. Doing otherwise would feel weird to me.


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## surrogate (Oct 10, 2009)

My kids say yes ma'am, no sir, please, thank you, etc. I cannot stand when other children do not do this. Even my daycare kids are taught manners and the parents know this up front. If you child is around me, they will use manners.


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## konayossie (Jul 29, 2010)

I was talking about not forcing your child to hug/kiss/show other affection to people if s/he doesn't want to. I fully support not doing so as I certainly would not enjoy being forced to hug/kiss people when I don't want to (that's not to say DS doesn't hug/kiss people he knows and likes). However, I do try to use good manners even if I don't feel like it, so I expect DS to do the same...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cassandraz* no hugs or kisses? AE is a big love bug and always has to kiss/hug everyone goodbye.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

We insist on please and thank you. Having lived in the South, "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" was considered polite for adults, but we never had our kids refer

to us that way (although I do know people who have their kids say, "yes, sir" to the father... pretty normal in the South). As for Mr/Mrs, a lot of times people

will say Miss Susan or Mr. Robert in the South--and that's considered respectful. Now that we're in the North, it's Mr. or Mrs. Lastname.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

We've taught them to say please, thank you, excuse me. We do not use sir or ma'am, nobody here does & if they call me Ma'am I correct them.

They use first names of adults except teachers & dr's.

I work in a middle school & the kids usually say Mrs. Hirtle, but I get variations of just plain Hirtle, Herds, Turtle & as long as they aren't being rude I will answer to it. Many of the teachers go by just their last names from the students and staff.


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## emmaljunga (May 25, 2011)

we don't force manors here.. we believe that children can learn by example and don't need to be forced.. it's surprising how many adults don't use manors though..yet expect children to do so.. this makes it harder for a chid to learn by example.. I too would prefer a polite can you do such and such for me - than a rude do it now please.. we're from Europe so do not use sir or ma'am - we say yes please or no thank you not yes sir or no ma'am..

Our daughter attends Waldorf and the teachers are on a first name basis.. children are not forced to use their manors either.. but speak in a polite gentle voice.. when we first started attending a playgroup at our local waldorf school we were handed out articles about not forcing children to say please and thank you.. It was a great read.


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## psconlon (Apr 3, 2011)

I've lived in a few states and it seems that the use of Ma'am and Sir is more a regional thing. Here in the northeast no one says it so we're not teaching our son so say it. One thing I am using with him that isn't common in our region, is the use of Mr. or Ms. So-and-So. Even if it's used with a first name I feel it's a sign of respect. It also helps us differentiate between adults and kids with the same first name.

Manners are definitely taught by example in our house. At 2.5 the kid seems to be catching on and says his thank yous and even "I'm sorry" without encouragement. (I even got a thank you for dinner tonight!) We don't force the use of certain words. I believe the use of kind speech is more important than saying please. The use of manners really is a two way street. If we're frustrated and not being polite to our kids, they mirror that behavior, so I feel it's important to lead by example.


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## ma_Donna (Jan 11, 2003)

Absolutely for please, thank you, excuse me, I'm sorry, I don't care for (instead of I don't like), etc. It's mostly by modeling and if they make a rude demand for me to do something they need to rephrase it politley (and not just by sticking please on the end). We mostly do it with modeling, reminders, requests (When you ask for a cookie, please say please).

However, I think some parents go past polite to rude with their insistance on children. Although they're ostensibly trying to teach manners they can go too far in demanding a behavior of their child - and any truly polite child will tell you that demanding something from someone isn't polite!


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

We do please/ thank you/ apologies, though I don't force it, I remind DD (3.5) of the polite thing & I'd say 95% of the time, she does it. Other times she feels like she can't say the words, so will offer a hug or high five instead, which at this age is fine w/ me (will likely change as she gets older).

However, I don't care for sir/ma'am. I HATE being called ma'am. You might as well call me an old bat and ask me if I need help getting to my walker. DH feels otherwise, though, and I've told him that I'd prefer not to hear my own kid call me that, but if he wants to include it in his relationship with her, that's up to him.


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

We insist upon nothing. However, my daughter is ridiculously polite because WE are polite to her and around her. To her, saying please, thank you, no thank you, excuse me, I'm sorry, etc. are normal and natural things to say in context because she has always heard people speaking that way.


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## Gemini Mama (May 17, 2011)

My daughter is almost 2.5yrs, and we do teach "please", "thank you", "sorry", "you're welcome" and "No thank you". Sure, sometimes her "please" is more of a "give me_____" (whatever we have that she wants) but she knows the acceptable way in which to ask for something and the terms in which she will be given something. We rarely have to remind her of it at this point, because she hears it from both her parents as well as her daycare teacher.

Most adults she currently comes into contact with now already have titles like "grandma" or "Uncle___" or "Aunt ___" but we do plan to have her address adults with respect by adding a Ms. or Mr. to the person's first name, with exception to her teacher or doctor. I too, have a southern upbringing and this is how I was taught to address my friends' parents and other adults.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *surrogate*
> 
> My kids say yes ma'am, no sir, please, thank you, etc. I cannot stand when other children do not do this.


Goodness! I hope you never come to my state, you'll be terribly judgmental of our culture. Children here are not expected to say sir or ma'am and it's normal to call adults by their first name.

A big part of being polite to others is having empathy towards them. I do teach please and thank you, but fostering a sense of empathy is more important in the long run.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

We teach manners but do talk about how it's all about really showing sincere respect, or basic human politeness.

This thread is featured on facebook btw


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## LyndaPoo (May 25, 2011)

We've led by example, starting from when she was in the high chair. She's said please and thank you since she could form sentences - mainly because we say it and she mimics it. We do correct if she doesn't say it. (She's 4.5 now) Also, when she does something that requires an apology we ask her to say "I'm sorry I (whatever she did)" That way she is actually taking responsibility for her actions. We do live in the South, so there are a lot of "Sirs and Ma'ams" around us, but since I was raised in California, that idea is just completely alien to me, although we do have her say "Miss/Mr./Mrs. (first name)" - So much of manners is a regional thing, I think the main thing that I find I need to correct is tone, as opposed to what she says - that is a little harder to teach what is right and what is wrong, but nonetheless so important.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

We don't use "sir" and "ma'am" (well, dh still does, sometimes - he grew up in Knoxville), and around here it tends to sound odd, not polite, when people say it. I also don't like it when children are expected to say those things to adults, if they don't get the same "courtesy" in return.

With respect to addressing adults as "Mr. Last Name" or "Ms./Miss/Mrs. Last Name", that's not what I teach, either. I teach them to address people as those people introduce themselves. So, their dance teachers are "Miss First Name", because that's how they ask to be addressed by their students). DD1's piano teacher is just "First Name", as that's what she requested.

"Please" and "thank you" are taught here, mostly by example, but they're not really pushed (again, more by dh than by me - he has a different concept of manners than I do). DD1, in particular, has had a long, hard struggle with manners, and she's still having trouble. She's getting some of the rote stuff down now, but she has a lot of trouble grasping that she's being rude when she does certain other things. We just keep plugging away at it.

I don't require or force apologies. I don't feel like getting into that one again, but I hate forced apologies, and I don't consider them to be good manners. I've learned to tolerate them, but they're not something I have any interest in teaching my kids.


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## capewell5 (Mar 31, 2010)

we use please, thank you & excuse me on a regular basis and they know they must mean it or just because they say please doesn't mean they get what they want. While we do not require our children to use ma'am or sir towards us they are encouraged to use it towards other people but I do not fault them if they do not.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

We most definitely demonstrate & are teaching good manners. Please, thank-you, pardon me, excuse me & table manners. It will also extend to general polite behaviour in public places (not screaming inside, cleaning up after yourself, etc.) & one day to driving etiquette.

BUT in no way do I feel that this is a child must be polite to adults/authority thing. I firmly believe we should all be polite to one another regardless of relationship. My first job was a fast food restaurant where things were fast paced & often stressful but it was very much expected for each demand of each other to be accompanied by a please & thank you - honestly it made a big difference in how things went 'cause although we were harried & sometimes sounding a bit rude the please & thank you showed we were not trying to be rude (if that makes any sense) & reminded us to keep our manners up.


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## BubbleMa (Sep 24, 2007)

Absolutely! In addition to the basics, things like "what?" "huh?" "uh-huh" "yeah" etc. are not acceptable answers when addressing adults. It's "Yes, ma'am" "no ma'am" "what did you say?" things like that. The biggest thing though is that they ASK for something instead of demand it. If they demand something and then stick please at the end, it's still rude IMO. I would rather them say, "May I have a snack?" as opposed to "Give me a snack please". kwim?

ETA: They're expected to use basic manners (please, thank you, excuse me, etc) with everyone. But we don't expect them to call their friends sir and ma'am. We also allow them to say "yeah" "huh", etc. when speaking to friends.


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## mommy212 (Mar 2, 2010)

I was raised to call others ma'am and sir or miss, but not my parents. I think it's important to say please, thank you, etc. No thank you instead of NO! is a big deal to me too.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

First names are normal for adults here. It would be weird to me to insist my child call someone anything else. Except teachers, teachers are Mr./Mrs./Ms. Lastname. Now if the person were to introduce themselves as "Miss Susie" or "Mr. Jones" or whatever, then yeah, I'd have my child call them that. And yes, I teach please, thank you, you're welcome, I'm sorry, excuse me. Also things like teaching my children that other than whispering to me that they want to know where the bathroom is or something, we don't sit and whisper secrets while sitting in a group of people. (Kids started this as a goof-off dinner game earlier this week.)

And when you are at a family-style meal, you take a small portion, taste it, THEN take more if you like it. You don't pile food on the plate and leave it. you also don't reach across the table, we pass the food.

When you go to somebody's house, if they offer you something, you can say thank you and have some. We don't ask/beg for stuff. And if someone offers a candy bowl, for example, you take one or two, not handfuls!

Oh and, LOL, thanks to kindergarten I think, I have had to teach another wonderful bit of etiquette---appropriate dinner conversation does not include the words "butt", "fart" or references to anything that belongs in the bathroom.


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## parsley (May 7, 2011)

I take manners seriously and expect my daughter to say "please", "thank you", "excuse me" and even recently "no thank you" for a present she didn't want.

I also take the time to write thank you cards with her when she receives a gift. We make them ourselves and turn an art project into a way to talk about why it was nice for someone to think of her and that it's really nice to let them know that you like it when they think of her.

We're also really serious about table manners. DD has to help set the table (and often helps cook), we wait for everyone to sit down before eating, put napkins in our laps, use utensils , wear underpants, etc...

BUT, all of this has happened pretty organically. I have good manners and table manners and my daughter picked it up. I do sometimes have to remind her about her napkin or to say please but it's not drilled into her or made into a chore.

I use "ma'am" and "sir" when encountering a stranger. I don't use titles like "miss" "mr." "aunt" or "uncle". My daughter doesn't either.

I think one can be thoughtful of other people without being cowed to authority or convention.


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## cuddlemama0507 (Nov 1, 2010)

I think it is important to teach manners. We use please, thank you, excuse me, etc. in our house and always have. I'm from Savannah, GA; so, you better believe I grew up say ma'am and sir, and DS use's it to, and it was important for me to teach him that. That is part of my culture, and there is nothing sweeter than a polite, Southern boy saying yes or no ma'am. For me and my family, that is a sign of respect, and I do believe that we need to teach children to respect adults.

That being said, I would never force my kids to give a hug or make physical contact when they don't want to. I think there is a line drawn between speaking in a polite way and being physical.


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## Tonia Starr (May 14, 2011)

In the raising of five boys....and in my past experience with dating myfair share of men who were less than.....gentlemen....well, I really want to raise my boys to be gentlemen.To give their seats to a lady,to open doors for girls, to say yes mam/sir and no mam/sir, to be aware of table manners. To me, its a pretty important issue. especially because down the line I hope they bcome involved in relationships with girls who are youg ladies and EXPECT a man to be a gentle men. I dont want my boys to attract the hoochie type...lol 

That being said, there are certain adults in their life whom they are close to and they are allowed to be on a first name basis with them but only as a "Mr Adam" or "Miss Lucy" type of way. There is still a diferentiation in the level of respect between kids/adults.

I see kids so often speaking utterly disrespectfully to their parents or teachers, with a sneer on their face and a mocking challenging tone to their words, espeially in the neighborhood we live in unfortunatly.So, it would be very easy for my boys to see that attitude every day (our next door neighbors 9 year old cusses at his parents and yells at thewhen they tell him its time to come in, etc) so I make it a pretty big issue.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I wont teach ma'am or sir, but my 14 month old says please and thank you. I dont want a demanding brat who cant stop to say thank you after she is given something she asked for. I cant stand it when kids say "gimmie that orange." grab it, and dont even say thank you. Or kids who just say "I want blah blah NOW" and their parents just give it to them, no please or thank you. It is so rude.

For me, ma'am and sir was something that was shoved down my throat from the time I was litttle to indicate that I was a lesser person than the adult I was talking to. I dont think I am any better than my child, nor do I feel like adults need a "title" to show respect. There are so many other ways to show respect. I will teach Miss first name, Miss Last name, or first name, depending on how comfortable the adult is with it. I want her to realize that you have to talk to different people in different ways. For example, if you are being pulled over, its more likely that you would say "sir" to a cop to "show respect" and hopefully not get a ticket. If you are going to church with grandma (yeah right) you should call people by "Mrs. Lastname" because all of those people are in their 70's and they were raised to think that was what manners were. If you call one of those women by their first name, they arent going to think its cute if you are over 4.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mothering*
> 
> Do you believe "sir" and ma'am" shows respect and should be used by children when they speak to adults? Do you require your children to say "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me"? Is "yeah" and "whatever" acceptable? What about calling adults by their first name? Oh - how about table manners?
> 
> ...


I have not read any of the replies yet. But yes. I am trying to raise my ds with uber-manners, and I think we HAVE loosened up on teaching etiquette, and it HAS changed with the times, and I think that's sad. It is ALWAYS necessary to be mannerly because that means considering the feelings of others, and that is part of getting along with our fellow humans. Nix manners, nix etiquette, and we nix caring just a tad more each and every time we are lax.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

there is absolutely no way whatsoever we'd expect our kids to say sir or ma'am to anybody. and we're Southern!

we model good manners. we're not going to prompt the kid to say please, thank you, or whatever, because hopefully, that will be a natural behavior. if not, then we will discuss that other people expect that but we will not require it.

we say please and thank you to each other, to strangers, and display consideration when we interact with others. because we as humans are all equal. we do not and will not say sir or ma'am because that implies a heirarchy that we do not believe in.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> there is absolutely no way whatsoever we'd expect our kids to say sir or ma'am to anybody. and we're Southern!
> 
> ...


:yeah:

I am not going to raise my child to think that he is "less than" because is his "less old!" And that is what I feel using sir/ma'am and other honorifics does.

I do not think I could continue to have a social relationship with someone who insisted my child call them sir/ma'am (and DP is from VA and I lived in VA as a child and adult so it's not like I'm just some "stuck up Yankee").

We say, please, thank you, excuse me etc. So of course ds does. We also say yeah, whatever, huh, wha? and other "informal" language, because that is how we talk. (hell we also curse!) We will teach ds how to actively code switch as he gets older so that he can conform to situations when he chooses.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mothering*
> 
> Do you believe "sir" and ma'am" shows respect and should be used by children when they speak to adults? Do you require your children to say "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me"? Is "yeah" and "whatever" acceptable? What about calling adults by their first name? Oh - how about table manners?
> 
> ...


I have not read any of the replies yet. But yes. I am trying to raise my ds with uber-manners, and I think we HAVE loosened up on teaching etiquette, and it HAS changed with the times, and I think that's sad. It is ALWAYS necessary to be mannerly because that means considering the feelings of others, and that is part of getting along with our fellow humans. Nix manners, nix etiquette, and we nix caring just a tad more each and every time we are lax.

Oh, and first names...I don't necessarily agree with it, but I live in an area where it's common, a part of western NC. When we eventually move up north, I will have a lot of re-training to do! I think people should be called what they want to be called. If an adult introduces themselves to a child by their first name, then that's what they want to be called. I introduce myself by my whole first name, which I prefer, and adults always nickname it down-- which exasperates me no end. If I wanted to be called that, I'd say "My name is 'nickname'"!


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Oops. Did not mean to reply twice. Dunno what happened there!


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

Manners- yes, definately. Ma'am and Sir- no way. I can NOT stand being called ma'am or Mrs. I have a name, use it. I did not teach my children to say those things, either, but as they got older they automatically say it to elderly people and certain grandparents who are anal about it. If children call me ma'am I tell them not to. I have everyone, even children, call me by my name, not my husband's last name. Being forced to say "ma'am" and "sir" as a child felt like a power thing, as if we were reduced to little nothings because we were kids. We didn't get called those titles unless we were in trouble.

My children still get compliments on their manners and two of the kids are teenagers. There are some really rude teens in our family so I have seen how bad they can be. I am really proud of my children. We taught by example, and really, it is the easiest thing when you have toddlers handing you things and taking them back repeatedly to say "please" and "thank you" and it sticks with them.

What I hate when it comes to manners is seeing SO MANY people chewing with their mouths open. Food or gum...we are not cows, people!! Stop standing in the grocery store chewing gum with your mouth open. Mine learned as toddlers not to do this, but their cousins/friends/even other adults come over and you can HEAR them chewing their dinner. Don't blow your nose at the table, if you have a horrible snotty cough please don't go to a restaurant, things like that. Now as for table conversation, I have lived with medical professionals and learned quickly to get over yucky topics while eating. Barring a weak stomach while pregnant, anything that's allowed as conversation any other time is allowed at the table also. It seems silly to me to disallow certain subjects just because we are eating.

I also don't approve of kids answering "yeah" or "whatever" to everything but this hasn't been a problem for us. Very talkative family, people don't normally want to get away with a one-word answer.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama* Oh and, LOL, thanks to kindergarten I think, I have had to teach another wonderful bit of etiquette---appropriate dinner conversation does not include the words "butt", "fart" or references to anything that belongs in the bathroom.


Oh, gawd, this. How?? How do you stop this?

I have a 10yo boy who thinks this is the epitome of humor. And he sees nothing wrong with using the words "balls" or "nuts" to refer to his privates, in mixed company. He got called down for this by his baseball coach at a game the other day (in front of many ages of little kids, and women, and girls), and I did not know this till *I* called him on it (apparently again, after the game!) in the presence of this same coach! We both told him that it's (unfortunately...sigh) expected and fine just "with the boys" but NEVER in mixed company. DS thinks it's perfectly appropriate.

I ended up telling him that if other people are offended by it, and tell you so, then it's in no way appropriate, and he would just have to take my word for it. Ugh.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama* There are so many other ways to show respect. I will teach Miss first name, Miss Last name, or first name, depending on how comfortable the adult is with it. I want her to realize that you have to talk to different people in different ways. For example, if you are being pulled over, its more likely that you would say "sir" to a cop to "show respect" and hopefully not get a ticket. If you are going to church with grandma (yeah right) you should call people by "Mrs. Lastname" because all of those people are in their 70's and they were raised to think that was what manners were. If you call one of those women by their first name, they arent going to think its cute if you are over 4.


See, THIS. It's different depending on the company, and that's such a hard and subtle thing to teach. I guess it's just something that grows with you. DS once asked me, about a year or half year ago, when he was going to be allowed to swear. After some thought, I said that he could swear when he realized who was around, when it's appropriate, when he can catch himself in an inappropriate situation. Like, not in church, not in front of Nana or any other person (again, except "the boys", and not even then if he isn't sure or doesn't know how the boy was raised) or in front of girls or women or people of a certain age. If he stubs his toe and it's instinctual to blurt "Oh sh*t", he better be aware of who's around and catch himself if he needs to. That's such a hard thing to learn, discretion.

As for modeling-- I have an extremely "spirited" (I hate that word, really-- he's bloody difficult) child and he's always gone against the grain. He does not model. He models the opposite, just to be contrary, because it's in his nature. It's been a long, hard road, but one thing I have learned in the 10 year (so far) process is that gentle discipline just does not fly with some people of a certain personality. So yeah, much as I hate it, I'm extremely authoritarian a lot of the time, especially with social mores, and it gets the job done. I have tons of compliments on what a polite boy I have. Most of the time


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *purplerose* What I hate when it comes to manners is seeing SO MANY people chewing with their mouths open. Food or gum...we are not cows, people!! Stop standing in the grocery store chewing gum with your mouth open. Mine learned as toddlers not to do this, but their cousins/friends/even other adults come over and you can HEAR them chewing their dinner.


OMG, yes, this too! How do you tell other people not to do this? I get seriously grossed out to the point of not being able to eat (if we're at the table) or not being able to concentrate on the conversation. I have one friend who I really like but her kids are so gross about this! And my other friend, we are so close I call her dd on it all the time, but her? She's an adult. Whatever do I say? It's so vile! Not only can you hear her, you can SEE her, too. EW. The first family I mentioned, I have never seen the mom eat, so I don't know if they model her, but the kids are wide open smacky mouths, and the mom says nothing. Ew.


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## vtechmom (Sep 16, 2010)

We are pretty big sticklers for manners here and that's in the apparently manner-less northeast, at least from what I've seen posted. I grew up right where I live now, in NJ in NYC suburbs, and I most definitely did not call adults only by their first names. When I received mail as a child it was addressed to Miss, or if it was for my younger brother it was Master, until we became teenagers and it changed to Miss and Mr.

I do insist on "Please, Thank You, Excuse Me, etc..." We also do not tolerate any type of potty humor at the table, the kids must ask to be excused after we are done eating dinner, and almost all adults get some type of honorific. The only two adults that my children call by their first name are their stepfather and stepmother. Now, it's not usually Ma'am, or Sir, generally it's Mrs., Ms., Mr., or for close family friends an honorary Uncle or Aunt, and in one case because of a joke they picked up on as toddlers they have an "Uncle Television" (he works in TV).

I don't believe that using titles is solely some form of repressive age-based hierarchy. I work with veterinarians, of which some new grads are younger than I am, I can't imagine for a second referring to them as anything but Dr. So-and-so. In some cases we are friends outside of work and at that time I'll use their first name, but if we are at work, whether there are other people around to hear or not, they are called Dr. I will also use Ms. or Mr. with another adult until invited to do otherwise (which might be as soon as the person introduces themselves and uses a first name for a casual encounter).

I'm having trouble explaining this, I see a title as showing respect and I don't believe that anyone needs to "earn" my, or my children's, respect. I feel we are all entitled to automatic respect on the basis of just being human. I can lose respect for a person, but my default is to respect someone and to me, and my children, showing respect includes using proper titles.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I model polite behavior... saying please and thank you, excuse me... and kiddo will do the same. She even has started pretend sneezing and saying 'bless you' afterwards.

However, I do not expect her to say 'sir' or 'ma'am' nor do I expect her to call adults mr/ms [first or last name] unless that is how they like to be referred to. I HATE being called ma'am and don't find it any more polite than other ways of phrasing the same thing and I want to be called by my first name, I'm even okay with a nickname... I am not Mrs. anything. I find it rude when parents expect their kids to call me Mrs. name when I do NOT like it.

I also don't force apologies. I still vividly remember an incident that happened in second grade where a kid did something to me and the teachers forced us to stand face to face so they could apologize. I couldn't help but think that the kid WASN'T sorry so all the teachers were doing was making that kid annoyed and making me really uncomfortable having to face them and wait for an apology I knew they didn't mean. Of course later the kid DID tell me they weren't sorry and still was mean to me throughout the year.

Rather than forcing my child to apologize, I give her the opportunity to apologize and simply expect her to discontinue mean/rude things. She doesn't have to feel sorry for what she did, but she also can't do it again.

as for thank you notes? I hate those. I think they are completely pointless and a waste of paper since I doubt most people save them. If the gift was received in front of the receiver, I think a thank you right then is sufficient. If it was opened away from the giver, then I think a call, or even better, a visit that includes a thank you for the gift is more personal and kinder. I don't just want a note saying thanks for what I gave someone... I'd love to talk to them and about more than just what I gave them. I would feel differently however if sending letters was a normal thing between giver and receiver or if calling/visiting weren't possible due to living really far away and the cost of doing either.

We don't ban any topics at the dinner table... dinner time is family time and as our kids get older, it might be the only time during week days where we really get quality time with them. I know growing up, dinner time was when we really got all the good quality sex talks. I'd hate to take away my children's chances at talking to me about anything they feel the need to share with me simply because we are eating. However, I also teach that there are places where certain topics aren't okay, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with eating. you just have to know your audience.

Ultimately, I think being polite has more to do with tone of voice and empathy/consciousness for those around you than the specific words you speak.


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## SuburbanHippie (Aug 29, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtechmom*
> 
> I don't believe that using titles is solely some form of repressive age-based hierarchy. I work with veterinarians, of which some new grads are younger than I am, I can't imagine for a second referring to them as anything but Dr. So-and-so.


I think using "Dr." is respectful because they earned that title through a lot of expensive schooling and hard work. I don't feel like using ma'am or sir is quite the same. Just because you happened to be born before me doesn't mean that I owe you something extra that I don't owe others younger than me.

On a semi-related note about titles, I actually have a little bit of an issue with Mrs/Miss/Ms. I think it's a little obnoxious that I have to choose a title that tells the world my marriage status. It is reminiscent of when women were men's property. You had to lay it all out there at the time you met so the man knew if you were already taken. It just rubs me the wrong way. I just want to be me. Call me by my first name, but don't throw an otherwise useless, sexist title in because you think it's going to show me respect. IMO, it shows me the opposite.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

My kids say please, thank you, and excuse me. They call adults Mr./Ms. lastname unless the adult tells them otherwise (which most of our friends do--we're first name people). We are working on table manners, especially napkin use and chewing with their mouths closed. We've really buckled down lately and are seeing improvements.

With my 10 mo. old I'm just trying to get her to ask for more food rather than banging on the table. Banging on the table is so much more fun, though!


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## psconlon (Apr 3, 2011)

Raising gentlemen - yes! My DH was the first person to ever thank me for doing something simple that I didn't even think twice about. It struck me because I didn't realize how unusual it was for someone to do that until he did! A general respect for others is what it all manners come down to. The particular words used can be meaningless if it's not sincere.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> I have not read any of the replies yet. But yes. I am trying to raise my ds with uber-manners, and I think we HAVE loosened up on teaching etiquette, and it HAS changed with the times, and I think that's sad. It is ALWAYS necessary *to be mannerly because that means considering the feelings of others*, and that is part of getting along with our fellow humans. Nix manners, nix etiquette, and we nix caring just a tad more each and every time we are lax.


Do you have a shred of evidence for this? I've definitely met people who have good formal manners/etiquette, and also consider the feelings of others. I've also met people who have very poor formal manners/etiquette and consider the feelings of others, and people who have very good formal manners/etiquette, yet don't consider the feelings of others at all. One of the reasons I'm as sour as I am on the whole subject is that the most "mannerly" people I met for most of my formative years were also unfeeling, uncaring and inconsiderate. They had manners, by the book, but they had no grasp at all of the underlying concept of consideration for others. And, yes - I've also met people who lack both formal manners and consideration for others, but it's not even close to being a one-one relationship.

Oh - and a lot of what we call etiquette is, imo, far more rooted in European class considerations than it's ever been in the idea of consideration for others. A lot of it has roots in making sure that everyone knows their "proper place" in society, with particular emphasis on acknowledging one's "superiors". I think that's one of the reasons why children saying "sir" and "ma'am" to adults has died out in some place (eg. here).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tonia Starr*
> 
> In the raising of five boys....and in my past experience with dating myfair share of men who were less than.....gentlemen....well, I really want to raise my boys to be gentlemen.To give their seats to a lady,to open doors for girls, to say yes mam/sir and no mam/sir, to be aware of table manners. To me, its a pretty important issue. especially because down the line I hope they bcome involved in relationships with girls who are youg ladies and EXPECT a man to be a gentle men. I dont want my boys to attract the hoochie type...lol


Umm...wow. So, if a woman doesn't want her door opened or her chair held out, she's a "hoochie type"? Nice.

Personally, I hate having my freaking chair held out for me. It's awkward and makes it more difficult to seat myself. It would also make no sense for dh to hold doors for me, as I'm the driver in our family and I'm usually in my seat, checking my mirrors, lights, etc. while he's finishing up with making sure the kids are all belted in and whatever we need for whatever we're going is in the car. I don't have a big issues with someone holding the car door for me, but it doesn't actually help me in any way. I don't understand why it's considered to be such a key courtesy to some people.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama*
> 
> Oh and, LOL, thanks to kindergarten I think, I have had to teach another wonderful bit of etiquette---appropriate dinner conversation does not include the words "butt", "fart" or references to anything that belongs in the bathroom.


It's not because of kindergarten. It's a phase most kids go through, to varying degrees. DS1 wasn't really bad, and he went to public school. DS2 is awful (thinks anything involving the words "penis", "butt" or "fart" is the height of humour), and he's homeschooled. DD1 was pretty bad for a while, but she seems to be outgrowing it now. She's also homeschooling.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

yes and no. i mean who doesnt want a child to be respectful of others. but i want her to pick up signs of respectfulness she sees around her because we are involved with different cultures where i live.

i wanted her to learn politeness by watching people around - not by me pointing things out. she said her first garbled thankyou when she was 9 months old







. (shamefull clueless mama i was i totally missed that, till the receiver and another friend pointed it out to me) she picked it up pretty well on her own.

what i HAVE told her is i dont expect politeness towards me. with me she can say ty when she feels like it not every. single. time. i also expect no sorry's. instead i expect some explanation or reaction like ooops i didnt mean to do that or oh no that wont happen again.

people have always commented on what a polite child she is. right from when she was a toddler. however i have never seen anyone here use sir, ma'am. i have never used it and neither has dd.

because i have not guided her on this she knows to look at others to see what they do. so for instance when she is with grandparents of her ethiopian friend during playgroup she knows to not mouth off with his gparents which she normally tends to do. its actually been a great learning lesson to her that sometimes silence is best even when she knows differently.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtechmom*
> 
> We are pretty big sticklers for manners here and that's in the apparently manner-less northeast, at least from what I've seen posted. I grew up right where I live now, in NJ in NYC suburbs, and I most definitely did not call adults only by their first names. When I received mail as a child it was addressed to Miss, or if it was for my younger brother it was Master, until we became teenagers and it changed to Miss and Mr.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying here, but ime, most people who insist that children use titles, including "sir" and "ma'am", do not use any kind of title in return. I don't mind if people expect my kids to use "Mr./Ms. Last Name", and also call my kids "Master/Miss Last Name" (or even first name, maybe). But, I've met very, very few people who use titles for children, including those who expect children to use titles for adults. In that case, the respect is all flowing one way - from the child to the adult. I have an issue with that.

That said, I don't like titles very much. I use them when I'm socially obligated to, but that doesn't mean I'm showing respect for that person. Oddly enough, most of the people I've used titles for in my life are people I don't have very much respect for at all. They're not about respect to me. They're about distance. (It also clicked in my head on reading your post that my GP's office staff use his first name when talking to him in the office. This also applies to his wife and partner in practice. The staff only refer to them as "Dr. So-and-So" when talking about them in the third person, to patients, labs, etc.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> I model polite behavior... saying please and thank you, excuse me... and kiddo will do the same. She even has started pretend sneezing and saying 'bless you' afterwards.
> 
> ...


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tonia Starr*
> 
> In the raising of five boys....and in my past experience with dating myfair share of men who were less than.....gentlemen....well, I really want to raise my boys to be gentlemen.To give their seats to a lady,to open doors for girls, to say yes mam/sir and no mam/sir, to be aware of table manners. To me, its a pretty important issue. especially because down the line I hope they bcome involved in relationships with girls who are youg ladies and EXPECT a man to be a gentle men. *I dont want my boys to attract the hoochie type*...lol
> 
> ...


That's obnoxious. Ill be you are going to make such and AWESOME mother in law.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I wont teach ma'am or sir, but my 14 month old says please and thank you. I dont want a demanding brat who cant stop to say thank you after she is given something she asked for. I cant stand it when kids say "gimmie that orange." grab it, and dont even say thank you. Or kids who just say "I want blah blah NOW" and their parents just give it to them, no please or thank you. It is so rude.


I don't think please or thank you would make either of those polite. "Gimmie that orange please" and "I want blah blah NOW please" are just as rude. What I can't stand are people who think certain words make something automatically polite!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Umm...wow. So, if a woman doesn't want her door opened or her chair held out, she's a "hoochie type"? Nice.
> 
> Personally, I hate having my freaking chair held out for me. It's awkward and makes it more difficult to seat myself. It would also make no sense for dh to hold doors for me, as I'm the driver in our family and I'm usually in my seat, checking my mirrors, lights, etc. while he's finishing up with making sure the kids are all belted in and whatever we need for whatever we're going is in the car. I don't have a big issues with someone holding the car door for me, but it doesn't actually help me in any way. I don't understand why it's considered to be such a key courtesy to some people.


Yeah, it bugs me that in order to be a "gentleman" a guy has to treat a woman like she's incapable of doing things for her self. When it comes to cars, you open your own door unless you really are physically incapable, if it's a building you hold the door for whom ever is behind you no matter their gender or yours. You give up your seat to pregnant women, people with disabilities, the elderly, or someone who looks like they need it more than you. And any woman I have met would much rather pull her own chair out than have someone do it for her. And where I come from, a woman who would rather not get this kind of treatment isn't a "hoochie type" she's just a woman who would rather not be treated like a young child.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

We do a lot of modeling, and we do ask for pleases and thank yous on occasion. We don't insist on it for everything though. DD is very polite to people outside the house, so I never worry about that. The only time we have issues is in how she treats us. DH and I have become more aware of how we speak to each other (sometimes *we* forget our pleases and thank yous.







) and are careful about how we speak to her as well. Sometimes we do ask her to "try again" if she has been particularly rude, which happens with all 5 year olds I think.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> as for thank you notes? I hate those. I think they are completely pointless and a waste of paper since I doubt most people save them. If the gift was received in front of the receiver, I think a thank you right then is sufficient. If it was opened away from the giver, then I think a call, or even better, a visit that includes a thank you for the gift is more personal and kinder. I don't just want a note saying thanks for what I gave someone... I'd love to talk to them and about more than just what I gave them. I would feel differently however if sending letters was a normal thing between giver and receiver or if calling/visiting weren't possible due to living really far away and the cost of doing either.
> 
> Yeah - I don't hate them, but I don't care about them, either. I think it's really, really rude to just not acknowledge a gift, *but I see no superiority to a note over a call, email or visit*. Thank you notes, unless they're something really out of the ordinary, always feel as if someone has checked off a list item.


Or a to the face "thank you". If you've already said thank you for a gift I've given you, you have no reason to say it again.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> I don't think please or thank you would make either of those polite. "Gimmie that orange please" and "I want blah blah NOW please" are just as rude. What I can't stand are people who think certain words make something automatically polite!


No, you are right in those situations. I guess I meant that I wish those kids would say "please" instead of "gimme" or "NOW" and also say thank you or thanks when it is received.

I have to completely disagree with the thank you note argument. I thank you notes are important, even if the person was there when you opened a gift. If give someone a gift at a party and they say thank you, half the time they dont remember who gave them what. Thank you notes are a good excuse to sit down and remember exactly who bought you what, and think to yourself about how they came up with that idea for you, how much you must mean to them, ect. Plus, its a great excuse to practice handwriting, which is not something I do very often. Im not offended when I dont get thank you notes, but I know there are a lot of older people who are. To this day, I still get gifts from my aunts and uncles when no other person my age does. Im sure its because Ive always gone out of my way to thank them instead of saying "thanks" and moving on to my next gift.

I dont write thank you notes to get more gifts, but I do believe that people are more inclined to give when they feel like it is truly appreciated.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* Do you have a shred of evidence for this? I've definitely met people who have good formal manners/etiquette, and also consider the feelings of others. I've also met people who have very poor formal manners/etiquette and consider the feelings of others, and people who have very good formal manners/etiquette, yet don't consider the feelings of others at all. One of the reasons I'm as sour as I am on the whole subject is that the most "mannerly" people I met for most of my formative years were also unfeeling, uncaring and inconsiderate. They had manners, by the book, but they had no grasp at all of the underlying concept of consideration for others. And, yes - I've also met people who lack both formal manners and consideration for others, but it's not even close to being a one-one relationship.
> 
> Oh - and a lot of what we call etiquette is, imo, far more rooted in European class considerations than it's ever been in the idea of consideration for others. A lot of it has roots in making sure that everyone knows their "proper place" in society, with particular emphasis on acknowledging one's "superiors". I think that's one of the reasons why children saying "sir" and "ma'am" to adults has died out in some place (eg. here).


Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience







I have never had the experiences you have had! My word, I'm sorry. I can't picture someone that displays formal manners and yet is an unfeeling cur. In that case my unmannerly self would probably show right quick! Yowsa!

I am feeling a new thread here on this forum...which is SHOWING respect vs. FEELING respect. I remember when I was a teen and for whatever reason, my mom and I were in a snit, and she yelled at me "You WILL respect me!!!" and I thought "No I won't; you have to earn it. You can't automatically respect someone". So when I became a parent, I thought and thought about this-- and that's where I came to the conclusion that it's a good idea to show respect in many cases, whether you are feeling it or not. Like getting pulled over. If you don't show respect to the cop you will get more than you bargained for! AND you better call hir "officer" while you're at it (I've heard "sir/ma'am" isn't the proper thing to say with cops but I forgot why).

Anyway, I guess what I meant to say (with the sentence you bolded) is it shows consideration for others. Not is consideration for others. But there are plenty of times and places where it would behoove one to show manners. In my personal case, I think it's all the time. Like Patrick Swayze said in Roadhouse: "I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice." I don't think it's ever harmful to always be nice, unless you have to not be.

I LOVE the southern expression "bless your heart" because it can cut like a razor as well as really mean bless your heart. It means any number of things, from the syrupy sweet to the honest blessing to a swear. But in the case of being nasty, that's a perfect example, IMO, of someone showing respect without being outright rude.

Am I making any more sense?









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* but ime, most people who insist that children use titles, including "sir" and "ma'am", do not use any kind of title in return. I don't mind if people expect my kids to use "Mr./Ms. Last Name", and also call my kids "Master/Miss Last Name" (or even first name, maybe). But, I've met very, very few people who use titles for children, including those who expect children to use titles for adults. In that case, the respect is all flowing one way - from the child to the adult. I have an issue with that.


Hmm, you know? You're right. And if I'm going to be so oldschool with manners and honorifics, maybe I should start calling kids by a title, too. I shall think about it









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vtechmom*
> 
> We are pretty big sticklers for manners here and that's in the apparently manner-less northeast, at least from what I've seen posted. I grew up right where I live now, in NJ in NYC suburbs, and I most definitely did not call adults only by their first names. When I received mail as a child it was addressed to Miss, or if it was for my younger brother it was Master, until we became teenagers and it changed to Miss and Mr.
> 
> ...


I just love this entire post









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SuburbanHippie* On a semi-related note about titles, I actually have a little bit of an issue with Mrs/Miss/Ms. I think it's a little obnoxious that I have to choose a title that tells the world my marriage status. It is reminiscent of when women were men's property. You had to lay it all out there at the time you met so the man knew if you were already taken. It just rubs me the wrong way. I just want to be me. Call me by my first name, but don't throw an otherwise useless, sexist title in because you think it's going to show me respect. IMO, it shows me the opposite.


Gawd, I hate forums...you can't express real feelings and they always get misunderstood. That said...I'm getting the feeling you must be pretty young in comparison to me? I remember when "Ms." came out, and the whole purpose of it was to bash the idea of titles that told a woman's marital status. "Ms" is supposed to be...hmm...marriage-neutral? It's ANTI sexist. I think, as a matter of fact, it may have started with Gloria Steinem and Ms. magazine, but I could be wrong. Off to google now...









I do have a thing about thank-you notes, though. Hand written ones. At least, to my relatives and friends of relatives, who are either all older than me or raised the same as me. Other people not so much, like local friends and what-not. I do make ds do them for his buds that come to birthday parties and give him gifts, because we're not even good acquaintances with those people, let alone friends, and I think there should be more formality in that kind of relationship.

I guess I'm just old fashioned with manners, but I think it's terribly sad that they've gone by the wayside. And I think the world is a worse place for it.

ETA: I'm from northern NJ, too, though I've lived in the south a long time. I have to say, I hate the honorary "Aunt" and "Uncle". I don't know why. It sounds pedophilic to me. I like the way they do here, Mr./Ms. First Name. Especially for close family friends and your family doesn't use First Names Only for adults. My brother lives up north, has all his life, and recently fell into this dilemma. He hated his kids calling his wife's best friend by her first name, yet she was too close to the family for Ms.Last Name. I suggested Ms. First Name. I have no idea what they ever decided on! His girls are all grown up, now, so it probably IS just First Name now.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience
> 
> ...


I cant cut the quote, sorry. Its all code-y and Im afraid Ill mess it up.

RE: Ms.

In the back asswards world I grew up in Ms. typically referred to a *gasp* woman of divorce *gasp*
Miss= young unmarried lady
Mrs. = married lady
Ms. = divorced lady

Ive never understood it.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience
> 
> ...


see and I think that a lot of the 'manners' people complain are going away aren't necessarily respectful. As has been pointed out, you can be respectful without saying please just as much as you can be disrespectful while saying it. You can be very respectful calling an adult something besides "ma'am" or "sir" but you can be really rude by using those terms. Even things like placing your napkin in your lap... just because a napkin is in your lap, it doesn't mean eating in a way that makes a big mess is automatically okay, nor does it mean you'll be more likely to use the napkin to wipe your hands just because it is in your lap rather than on the table next to your plate.

I think it is extremely rude, obnoxious, and very disrespectful to say 'bless your heart' in any way that isn't an honest blessing. I don't think it shows respect to say it scathingly and I DO think it is outright rude. It is the type of sarcasm that divides people and makes them less likely to want to associate with each other.

I don't think the world is a worse place because men don't pull chairs out for women (I hate that too, I'm capable and I don't want to be treated like a small child.) nor because people don't put napkins in their laps or remember to say please every single time they ask for something. Rather, I think we live in a world where people aren't taught to have tact and compassion for people they disagree with or kindness for people who do or give things to them. I don't even think people are necessarily more rude, people are just rude in a way now that is harder to ignore. It is easy to ignore rudeness when someone says 'bless your heart ma'am' even though they are clearly saying it with hate because the line itself isn't rude without the rude intention behind it. It is harder to ignore rudeness when someone just says what they are ACTUALLY thinking when they say 'bless your heart, ma'am.'

I prefer to teach my daughter that it really doesn't matter what she says.. it is about HOW she says it. She can say please til she is blue in the face and that doesn't mean her behavior is okay. I also want to teach her how to be honest and stand up for herself while still being able to use tact and respect. Respect isn't only specific words like please and thank you, it is how to present the words you use. Everyone should be able to speak their mind and share their feelings, but not at the expense of other people's feelings. I shouldn't HAVE to say 'bless your heart' rather than what I am really thinking because I should be able to stand up for myself if I want to say something at all, but I also shouldn't say something equally as rude and hurtful either in it's place just so I can stand up for myself.

as for thank you notes, I have written them. It doesn't help me remember any better what was gifted to me as just saying thank you when I open the present, or calling later if the gifter wasn't there to see. It DOES however annoy me to have to thank the person AGAIN and makes me less thankful for the gift. I'd rather not receive gifts at all than have to say thank you when I get the gift AND spend time writing out a whole redundant note about it. However, when we receive gifts for birthdays and christmas in my family, we don't just say 'thanks!' and open the next one.. we usually do comment on the gift itself. 'thanks for the breadmaker grandma! thats the exact one I wanted. You'll need to share that recipe you always use with me so I can start using it right away.' If I'm saying that, why should I also write it down on a piece of paper thats just going to get tossed out anyway? It is a waste of time and paper. I can understand the handwriting practice, but my handwriting hasn't changed since I was 10... I don't feel the need to keep practicing at this point. I don't like to write and I only write thank you notes when I know I have to... I don't think it would make anyone feel too good knowing they only got one because there was no other option and yet social rules say you have to do it anyway.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience
> 
> ...


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

We are teaching please-thank you-no thank you, etc. We are also teaching them to respond to our calling them with "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am". This applies to their grandparents as well. To everyone else, a simple "Yes" is fine. But "Huh??" and "WHAT" are not acceptable.

Wherever we live, we look to apply the rules of ettiquite for that area. In the deep south, they'd be sir-ing and ma'am-ing a lot more. Here, they say Miss-Firstname even though that grates on me, personally. In this area "Mrs." and "Ma'am" are almost taken as an insult (I suppose because it implies age or something). In dh's country, there will be a new set of rules we will all need to learn.

I think respectfulness and politeness are an important part of living in society and relating to others.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3* see and I think that a lot of the 'manners' people complain are going away aren't necessarily respectful. As has been pointed out, you can be respectful without saying please just as much as you can be disrespectful while saying it. You can be very respectful calling an adult something besides "ma'am" or "sir" but you can be really rude by using those terms. Even things like placing your napkin in your lap... just because a napkin is in your lap, it doesn't mean eating in a way that makes a big mess is automatically okay, nor does it mean you'll be more likely to use the napkin to wipe your hands just because it is in your lap rather than on the table next to your plate.
> 
> I think it is extremely rude, obnoxious, and very disrespectful to say 'bless your heart' in any way that isn't an honest blessing. I don't think it shows respect to say it scathingly and I DO think it is outright rude. It is the type of sarcasm that divides people and makes them less likely to want to associate with each other.
> 
> ...


See, but I agree with most of what you said. I think tone is WAY more important than words. It's much nicer to say "May I have the orange?" in a nice way, than to say "Gimme that orange, please" in a rude way. But I also think that tone is really, really hard to teach and convey, and a lot of times, IME, the ritual of anything comes before the tone and feeling that comes with.

Thank yous-- I agree. If Grandma is there when you open the breadmaker, and you say what you quoted above, I do think that is sufficient. But if she lives long distance, a note is necessary, IMO, and if it was a birthday party and little Johnny gave you that game you always wanted, you say so-- but if there's umpteen kids at the party, the gift opening is usually as hectic as the party, so, at least in my area, someone sits aside and writes a list: "Gavin-- dinosaur book; Milly-- Pokemon toy; Ryan-- vampire cape" or whatever, so that later, the kid can remember who gave him what, and send thank-yous-- WITH the exact sentiment you expressed for Grandma: "Thank you so much for the whatsis! I'm going to keep it on my top shelf so I can look at it every day", or whatever.

My brother-- ye Gods, he was raised in the same family as me, and his girls are open-and-toss, with hundreds of gifts. Drives me nuts! And rare thank-yous. They live far from both me and our mom (their Nana) and neither one of us (my mom or me) gets a phone call, and the rare thank-you note. Which is rude, I think, since we spend time picking out things with them specifically in mind. I've stopped sending things at all to my nieces. One, because I don't have it in the budget anymore, and two, because I never.ever.ever. hear from them. Not for thank you's, not for hi, not for nothing. I'm on both of their Facebook and even if I comment on there, they never respond. At all. I think it's appalling, but whatever, no skin off my nose anymore, really.

Most of all, this, though, I think sums the whole dang conversation up: <<Rather, I think we live in a world where people aren't taught to have tact and compassion for people they disagree with or kindness for people who do or give things to them. I don't even think people are necessarily more rude, people are just rude in a way now that is harder to ignore. >>


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Please, Thank You, etc. are pretty standard, but can also be implied by how something is expressed. Ma'am/Sir? Pretty regional, I think, so really depends on where one is raised. I preferred Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms for adults when my kids were younger - adults they've known since childhood are still called Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Lastname at 17 & 19. Other adults they've met when older are on a first-name basis. I'm called anything from Mrs Lastname to Mrs. Last Initial to Firstname to Madre...

But a lot is contextual... Dinner conversation at home between the three of us is one thing and no holds barred. Dinner at Grandma/Grandpa's is something else and should not include inappropriate language or topics (i.e. bathroom humor), etc. Dinner at a friend's depends on their family culture. When a guest, it is always polite to offer to help, be it with prep, setting the table, clearing, etc. You don't just go digging in the fridge or helping yourself to whatever is available, be it food, appliances, etc.

Essentially? You treat others as you'd like to be treated. Easy peasy.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

I frankly find using Yes, Sir/No, Sir to be.....degrading in some cases. It's like a form of humiliation to me to force a child to say "Yes, Sir!"

I know that is not always or even mostly the case but I guess I've watched enough Judge Judy to watch the guilty party try this to seem more polite when they've just keyed someone's car.

I guess, now that I think about it, it is the actions that are the measure of manners, not just the words. I don't want to hear "Gimme the rice." at the dinner table but I also don't expect:

Child: May I have the rice, mother?

Me: Yes, you may.

Child: Thank you so much

Me: You are very welcome.

I believe in freedom. So I do expect and teach manners but it is more the actions than the words.

The "what to call adults" thing is tougher for me. I was raised that you called everyone Mr. Soandso but now I try to just use my best judgment and gauge each situation. I would insist that a child call a teacher Mr but not necessarily a neighbor....unless that neighbor has introduced him/herself to my child as Mr. or Mrs.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I haven't read all the replies.

Yes, I've raised polite children. They say please, thank you, you're welcome, excuse me, and they hold doors open for people and pick up things that people drop.

When we lived in the South, they addressed adult friends by Mister- and Miss-First-Name, as was the custom.

Around here, that would get you weird looks.

I suppose they might use "Sir" or "Ma'am" if they were trying to get the attention of a stranger. "Excuse me, Sir....you left your wallet on the counter" Friends and family? No way.

If someone chooses not to associate with me or my family because my kids don't jump through those etiquette hoops, it's no great loss, IMO. That says a lot more about THEM than it does about US.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

My kids call their teachers sir and ma'am. They call their drs and other adults sir and ma;am.

My DH calls people sir or ma'am to this day.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Essentially? You treat others as you'd like to be treated. Easy peasy.


It's not "easy peasy". My personal prefernces in how i like to be treated are frequently at odds with what is considered "good manners". When people treat me the way I like to be treated, they probably look quite rude from the outside. (As a small example, from the stuff you just said, it makes me really uncomfortable when guests offer to help me out in the kitchen, and I have to force myself to make the offer to other people, because it feels rude to me.) Likewise, if I treat people the way I like to be treated, I'd be accused of bad manners. For people like me, the whole social "thing" is a freaking minefield of bizarre and inexplicable customs and expectations, and it's actually really scary to navigate.

ETA: And, when I'd reached a point in my life where I thought I had it more-or-less figured out, I discovered the impact of cultural and regional differences. When I first met dh's family (Knoxville...not Deep South, but definitely Southern), I felt completely lost. Their rules are just...different from the ones I'd managed to get a handle on.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

What about masochists? Should they treat others the way they'd like to be treated?


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## ElizabethE (Jan 15, 2011)

I do think there is a difference in seeming polite and actually being so. I think that using certain words doesn't automatically make you kind or polite (just as using some others isn't automatically rude). I think "etiquette" is overrated. I think we should mostly be honest and just be ourselves.

I do encourage my kids to say thank you if someone has done something nice for them. I won't force them to say anything, but they can be a little shy, and in an awkward pause of receiving something, I don't want them to be mistaken for rude or ungrateful, so I do encourage them at that point to say thank you and to them it is like a reminder which they willingly and graciously oblige. I will sometimes encourage them to say please when they want something, or excuse me in certain... other instances.  But those are less often. They're pretty well-behaved kids. 

I too find Sir and Ma'am degrading. I had a Southern mother who tried to make me call people this, and I always somehow felt degraded by this. "Corny" is also a feeling I had on it. I often tried to refuse to do this. My father seemed indifferent about it, which probably is what allowed me to escape this kind of rule. To me, it's just another arbitrary rule that maybe accomplishes belittling, and I'm not sure what else.

Calling adults by first names is perfectly okay. I myself always call people by however they have introduced themselves to me or how they are introduced to me, and I don't expect my children should have to do any different. For me, it's sort of the preference of the person and what they'd like to be called.

In essence, I raise them to think of other people's feelings and be genuinely nice individuals, and that works. We don't need stringent rules or to put them in their place as being just children, or anything of that sort. Like someone else said, I believe in freedom.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:Originally Posted by *ElizabethE*  I will sometimes encourage them to say please when they want something, or excuse me in certain... other instances. 

OK, funny story (well, I think it's funny!):

Up until ds was about 4, he never, ever excused himself for bodily noises. I always tried to prompt him by saying "Excuse You!" when he did. But he never said a word, or copied me. One day I asked him about it and told him, "You're supposed to say 'excuse me'"!

To which he said..."But Mom, you always do it FOR me!"

Wow...the minds of little kids


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

Quote:


> To which he said..."But Mom, you always do it FOR me!"


Hey, it makes sense! I always wonder what all kids get away with because of how they think about things  When my third was a toddler, she KNEW not to mess with the Christmas tree. So she'd sit there holding a branch, saying, "Hey! Hey! Hey!" and grinning at me. So adorable! She'd also announce, "Why I do dat?" when she did things she shouldn't have. That child would tell on herself by telling me what she did NOT do. She'd show up with a blue mouth and announce that she did NOT lick the marker.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MaerynPearl*
> 
> You would be surprised at the parents who think it's inappropriate to teach your children manners because its "forcing them to say something they may not mean"


There is a difference between not teaching manners, and not forcing your children to say thank you/please/sorry/etc. Some people (myself included) don't think that *forcing* a kid to say something is a polite thing to do. I encourage it. I model it. I say it for him if he forgets, but I won't demand that he says it. I may just be lucky, but he is a very polite child, especially with his excuse-me's when he wants to talk.

I don't teach sir and ma'am, because nobody talks like that around here.


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## alicewyf (Apr 24, 2008)

Our 22 month old says "Please," "Thank You/Thanks," "Sorry" and "Bless You." We have to remind her of the "Please" sometimes but she remembers the others really well. We don't force her to say any of them, if she says "please" she is just likely to get what she wants faster! My husband and I are pretty polite about mannerisms like that, so I guess she picked it up from us.

People have brought up some interesting stuff w/r/t people's titles, like "Aunt X" or whatever. She currently calls her aunts and uncles by their first names, but all of her grandparents have titles such as Grandma or Pap-pap. I don't know if we'll ask her to add "Aunt X" later. I call all my aunts and uncles by only their first names now, but I didn't when I was younger.

ETA: I am stickler for Thank-you notes and I force my husband to write them too. We write them for our daughter now but she will be writing them when she gets older. I am pretty strict about it with myself. I don't often get thank-you notes from others, and don't expect it, but I guess for me it is a habit, and a sign of a good polite upbringing if you do write them.

I really think of myself as pretty laid back but reading some of the other posts here makes me wonder if we are a bit old fashioned!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *alicewyf*
> 
> ETA: I am stickler for Thank-you notes and I force my husband to write them too.


I'm not sure what you mean by "force", but I can't think of anything that would cause me to correct my husband's manners like that. He's a grown man and can navigate the social world without my micromanagement, yk? I think that's kind of disrespectful of your dh. (I could be wrong, as I'm not sure of the dynamic, but your word choice reflects a lack of respect, imo.)


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

I only do thank-you notes if the gift is extraordinary or if it's from someone we don't see all the time. I'm sending my uncle a thank-you note and a gift card for co-signing on a student loan for me. If my BFF gives me a birthday present, I hug her and thank her when she gives it to me, or call/email with a thank you if it was mailed. Sending a formal thank-you note would be too....well, *formal* for our tastes. To each her own, I guess. I do think gifts should be acknowledged; I just don't think the postal service has to be involved.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Which brings up another thing that apparently is either archaic or nobody knows what it's for: RSVP.

I was brought up that it means (I do believe), from the French, "respond if you please", or some such. And you're supposed to respond if you're coming or if you're not. BOTH, not either/or. Drives me absolutely NUTS here, because people either ignore it, or only respond if they're coming, or only respond if they're not.

Now-- all I know is, I want a head count for food! If I'm ordering pizza for the birthday party, I want to know how many to order! So why do people not respond at all sometimes? I've had to call people days before my ds's party, after not hearing at all, and STILL they don't answer or respond! So I just assume a no-show, and then if they show up...sheesh, what a pain, and I think it's the utmost rudeness. I've even written "Please respond whether or not you'll be able to make it". And still, nothing. Do people just not know?


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> Which brings up another thing that apparently is either archaic or nobody knows what it's for: RSVP.
> 
> ...


Now this I agree with! To not RSVP is extremely rude. I think it is reponde si vous plait or however you spell things in French haha. It is just common sense that people would need to know how many are coming. It also drives me bonkers when people don't respond and then are confused as to why there isn't enough for them when they get there. I'm not going to assume you are coming if you can't even tell me you are.

So far I've only had a wedding and a baby shower where I'd actually need RSVP's and both were so casual that I was able to just ask everyone. They were small enough and only people I talk to in every day life anyway. I don't look forward to birthday parties and such as kiddo gets older....


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> Now this I agree with! To not RSVP is extremely rude.


Agreed.


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## ElizabethE (Jan 15, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "force", but I can't think of anything that would cause me to correct my husband's manners like that. He's a grown man and can navigate the social world without my micromanagement, yk? I think that's kind of disrespectful of your dh. (I could be wrong, as I'm not sure of the dynamic, but your word choice reflects a lack of respect, imo.)


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3* So far I've only had a wedding and a baby shower where I'd actually need RSVP's and both were so casual that I was able to just ask everyone. They were small enough and only people I talk to in every day life anyway. I don't look forward to birthday parties and such as kiddo gets older....


Yeah, it's awful. And here in my area (apparently this is regional), parents, when they do respond, ask "Are siblings allowed/invited?"

Um, say what?? Siblings? No! If I wanted siblings I'd have put them on the invitation! Invitees only! Yowsa.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Along those lines, another thing I've taught my children is that it's rude to invite yourself anywhere. You don't ask if you can eat over, sleep over, come in the house, etc. You wait to be invited.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> *I only do thank-you notes if the gift is extraordinary* or if it's from someone we don't see all the time. I'm sending my uncle a thank-you note and a gift card for co-signing on a student loan for me. If my BFF gives me a birthday present, I hug her and thank her when she gives it to me, or call/email with a thank you if it was mailed. Sending a formal thank-you note would be too....well, *formal* for our tastes. To each her own, I guess. I do think gifts should be acknowledged; I just don't think the postal service has to be involved.


This seems like an odd classification. I just feel like the thank you note isn't for your "informal" tastes, it's for the other person's acknowledgment. I do agree that generally when a gift is given one on one, a hug and a verbal thank you is fine.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> This seems like an odd classification. I just feel like the thank you note isn't for your "informal" tastes, it's for the other person's acknowledgment. I do agree that generally when a gift is given one on one, a hug and a verbal thank you is fine.


Rarely do I receive gifts that aren't one on one. I always acknowledge gifts. Writing a thank you note after already thanking someone in person just seems like overkill, and my friends would find it weird.

I have given gifts a few times that seemed to get no acknowledgment, and it bothered me. But I didn't need a thank you card. A quick phone call or note in my email would have sufficed. These were occasions that gifts were not opened at the event.


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## alicewyf (Apr 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "force", but I can't think of anything that would cause me to correct my husband's manners like that. He's a grown man and can navigate the social world without my micromanagement, yk? I think that's kind of disrespectful of your dh. (I could be wrong, as I'm not sure of the dynamic, but your word choice reflects a lack of respect, imo.)


LOL. He knows it is the right thing to do, he just doesn't like doing it. So I usually end up nagging him into it. Believe me, it isn't a disrespect issue. It's a "my husband can be lazy about some things" issue. He writes all day long for his job (grants coordinator) so he is sick of it once he gets home.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Rarely do I receive gifts that aren't one on one. I always acknowledge gifts. Writing a thank you note after already thanking someone in person just seems like overkill, and my friends would find it weird.
> 
> I have given gifts a few times that seemed to get no acknowledgment, and it bothered me. But I didn't need a thank you card. A quick phone call or note in my email would have sufficed. These were occasions that gifts were not opened at the event.


I understand. I figure if grandma gives it and is hugged and thank, I do think that's enough.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein* I understand. I figure if grandma gives it and is hugged and thank, I do think that's enough.


But, it's not about what *we* think. It's about the other person. If they spent the time and energy to go pick out a gift specifically with the recipient in mind, the recipient could take the time out to write a special note to the giver. I'm sure it takes less time than to actually go to a store and buy the gift to begin with, or definitely less time than however long it took to make the gift, if it was homemade.

If the person is thanked face to face, it still wouldn't hurt to sit and write something like "I know I already thanked you in person, but I just wanted to send you this note to let you know how much I really appreciated yadda yadda yadda". I just think it's an extra nice gesture.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> *But, it's not about what *we* think. It's about the other person.* If they spent the time and energy to go pick out a gift specifically with the recipient in mind, the recipient could take the time out to write a special note to the giver. I'm sure it takes less time than to actually go to a store and buy the gift to begin with, or definitely less time than however long it took to make the gift, if it was homemade.
> 
> If the person is thanked face to face, it still wouldn't hurt to sit and write something like "I know I already thanked you in person, but I just wanted to send you this note to let you know how much I really appreciated yadda yadda yadda". *I just think it's an extra nice gesture.*


The bolded seems to contradict itself.

(I've been accused of being overly practical, but I don't want a thank you note if someone already thanked me. No, it doesn't hurt....but it's a waste of paper and postage, and it's just one more thing I have to recycle. YMMV.)


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> *But, it's not about what *we* think. It's about the other person.* If they spent the time and energy to go pick out a gift specifically with the recipient in mind, the recipient could take the time out to write a special note to the giver. I'm sure it takes less time than to actually go to a store and buy the gift to begin with, or definitely less time than however long it took to make the gift, if it was homemade.
> 
> If the person is thanked face to face, it still wouldn't hurt to sit and write something like "I know I already thanked you in person, but I just wanted to send you this note to let you know how much I really appreciated yadda yadda yadda". I just think it's an extra nice gesture.


If you had read my previous post, that is what I said.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

We will teach and expect the basic manners like please, thank you, no thank you, excuse me, and so on. The Sir, Ma'am not so much but more like call people what they prefer to be called but call them Mr, Mrs, Miss first and let them tell you otherwise. Either Miss first name or Miss last name will be fine. I don't see it so much as child/adult thing as much as just a basic way to address and act towards everyone no matter the age. Table manners will be a big thing for me as well. Thank You notes and stuff like that I leave for birthdays, graduations and anytime it was an organized event where gifts were given. Gifts at Christmas time or a just because gift really will depend on the person.

Either way children/adults are both sucky these days with manners IMO. Just being at the grocery store and seeing how people are is enough to drive me batty. So I want/demand the same respect that I give others as well as my kids to do the same in return (from my kids). I also don't think its so much the words used either as much as how its said. So while we don't say please all the time we are nice and not rude about but thank you is one that is usually always said.


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## crzycakes (May 17, 2011)

Very keen on teaching my children manners here. Please and thank you very important. I'm a firm believer in thank you cards, handwritten, not emailed. No elbows on the table at meals. I set a full table with meals and the kids have been taught proper use of their silverware. Adults are Miss, Mrs, Mam, Sir, Mr etc. on the flip side though, I do not force my kids to give hugs or kisses or accept them if they do not want them. I have taught them to be polite in their response and to offer a handshake instead.

It's kind of funny how they carry what they have learned into daily life. All our hens have names. When we go out to get eggs, if there is a hen in the laying box, they will approach, greet with "Hello Miss XYZ. May I get your eggs today?" Me? I just reach right under without so much as a "How do you do?"

This isn't to say my kids are a perfect display of manners at all times, they are after all, kids.


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## MommaBirdie (May 23, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mothering*
> 
> Do you believe "sir" and ma'am" shows respect and should be used by children when they speak to adults? Do you require your children to say "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me"? Is "yeah" and "whatever" acceptable? What about calling adults by their first name? Oh - how about table manners?
> 
> ...


We do expect sir, ma'am, please, thank you, excuse me, etc.
Whatever is not acceptable, yeah is in a normal conversation.
Adults are called Miss first name or Mr last name
The only table manners we do at the moment is that we start eating when everyone has gotten their plate and they must ask to be excused.
They must speak when spoken to, no pretending to be shy or ignoring others.

We also will expect our son to stand when greeting people, and when women leave a table.
Open doors, push in seats, make eye contact, etc.

We expect manners, and we've learned that it's not that much to ask for.
Children model parents, so we haven't had to do much.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

My kids have been raised to say please, thank you, and excuse me. Table manners are also important. They were also raised to say "Good morning" or "good afternoon" or "Good evening" to neighbors and the people who work around the apartment building. I even had one of my son's teachers tell me how polite my kids are because my older child will still greet her when she sees her in the hall at school, even though she no longer teaches her.

Sir & Ma'am - not really used here. Instead, they use family terms. Mainly "Auntie" or "Uncle" in English. Various Cantonese family terms when speaking Cantonese, depending on the age of the person involved, unless we address them by their work title (like "Si-gei" for a taxi or bus driver).

When they meet people, I usually expect my kids to shake hands. They are pretty spontaneous w/ the hugs and kisses too, but they have to cool that sometimes because HK culture is generally less "touchy".

Sneezing, coughing, and yawning they are supposed to cover their mouths. If someone sneezes, we often will say "Bless you" or "Gesundheit".


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MommaBirdie*
> 
> We also will expect our son to stand when greeting people, and when women leave a table.
> Open doors, push in seats, make eye contact, etc.


Oh yes, I forgot these. Also, opening car doors for ladies, walking on the street side of a lady, no hats indoors.

One thing I do wish is that more people would acknowledge the behavior. For example, both of my kids open/hold doors for others. I can't begin to tell you how many people just walk on through w/o a word. It's somewhat discouraging, ya know?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Oh yes, I forgot these. Also, opening car doors for ladies, walking on the street side of a lady, no hats indoors.
> 
> One thing I do wish is that more people would acknowledge the behavior. For example, both of my kids open/hold doors for others. I can't begin to tell you how many people just walk on through w/o a word. It's somewhat discouraging, ya know?


I thank anyone who holds a door for me, especially children - but I really wish people wouldn't, except in the cases where it will actually hit me in the face, or I have my hands full. I hate having doors held for me, otherwise.

I'm also not crazy about having someone walk on the street side of me, in general. But, then, I find most of the gender-specific manners really annoying.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I thank anyone who holds a door for me, especially children - but I really wish people wouldn't, except in the cases where it will actually hit me in the face, or I have my hands full. I hate having doors held for me, otherwise.
> 
> I'm also not crazy about having someone walk on the street side of me, in general. But, then, I find most of the gender-specific manners really annoying.


hahaha that's how I feel. especially the road bit... I feel more comfortable with people on my left side so my right side is free to use since I am VERY right handed. Having someone insist on walking on my right side just because of cars really irks me. I don't feel safer with them there just because some guy is one extra obstacle between cars, but I DO feel very crowded because my right hand is blocked, even if I don't need to use it at the time.

It's fine if a car door is opened for me if we reached the car on the side I'll be getting in at anyway, but I always instantly feel really formal and like I'm performing on stage. It just feels really awkward and uncomfortable having people do things for me when I am perfectly capable of doing them myself. It is just easier to do things for myself and I don't like people thinking they have to do them for me purely because they have different genitalia, especially something as minor as opening a car door. It isn't like it's heavy or anything.. and then assuming I'm passenger, it just leaves me waiting after I buckle for them to get around the car and get in themselves. I'd rather just get in at the same time.

Mostly, I just hate being treated like my being female is a disability. That feels more rude to me than anything else.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Oh yes, I forgot these. Also, *opening car doors for ladies, walking on the street side of a lady*, no hats indoors.


My experience has been that women are completely capable of opening their own car doors, and navigating the dangers of a roadway on their own.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Diff'rent strokes!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Diff'rent strokes!


Until a woman comes a long and someone decides for her that she should be treated like a child a la 19th century England. Opening doors for someone is polite, opening a car door for a woman in the name of politeness is assuming that she is and wants to be treated as less capable than a man.


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## lilmom (Nov 9, 2008)

We require our son to say please, thank you, you're welcome, etc. When he asks for something he says, "Mommy, may I have (fill in the blank) please?" We are working on yes ma'am and yes sir but that has been a much slower process. He already knows to say "How are you doing today" in reply when someone asks how he is doing. He tells them and then asks them.

When addressing adults, he calls them Mr. Firstname or Ms. Firstname if they are very close personal friends of ours, or for aquaintances or people we just met it's Mr. or Ms. Lastname. With our siblings he calls them Auntie Firstname or Uncle Firstname. We don't feel it's acceptable for him to call adults by just their first name.

He also is learning to shake hands and say "nice to meet you"

Manners are a big deal at our house. He also has to ask to be excused from the dinner table. He has learned by watching us that it is polite to hold the door for others coming behind you. He says excuse me when he coughs, sneezes, burps, etc..

He is almost 4, so I am sure we will add more manners as he gets older. Right now, getting him not to grab food off daddy's plate is our challenge. But he's doing pretty well, I think, for 3 yrs old.

Unfortunately, it seems alot of adults don't know these basic manners, and to me, it's very important. Oh! We also write thank you notes together and he signs his name or colors on them.


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## lilmom (Nov 9, 2008)

oops..forgot to put that Yeah is a *maybe* although I really prefer Yes, or yes ma'am. "Whatever" is totally unacceptable at my house. And my pet peeve is "like", as in "Oh, it was, like, so hot outside today." So, there will be none of that either, as long as I can help it. (Former English Major here..)


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Until a woman comes a long and someone decides for her that she should be treated like a child a la 19th century England. Opening doors for someone is polite, opening a car door for a woman in the name of politeness is assuming that she is and wants to be treated as less capable than a man.


Guess that's a matter of opinion. I am more than capable of doing most anything myself. So is my daughter (in fact, she could lay most guys out with one punch). But it's nice to sometimes be pampered. Additionally, when one is going out dressed to the nines, it can sometimes be difficult to get in/out of some vehicles - there's nothing wrong with a gentleman opening the car door, and giving "a hand" to help a lady in/out. IMO, of course. Doesn't mean it's done *every* time. There is some discretion at play.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

For me, consideration for others is important. Courtesy is an easy way of manifesting that. Its simply a list of words and bahaviors you use in certain situations that create a good feeling. I hope to teach my kids that through modelling. My expectations for their behaviour are commesurate (did i spell that right?) with their age. So 3yo isnt the politest person, but im ok with that.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

As for whether the usage of 'ma'am' and 'sir' constitute good manners, not where i grew up. I dont speak like that, and dont intend to teach my children to.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Guess that's a matter of opinion. I am more than capable of doing most anything myself. So is my daughter (in fact, she could lay most guys out with one punch). But it's nice to sometimes be pampered. Additionally, when one is going out dressed to the nines, it can sometimes be difficult to get in/out of some vehicles - there's nothing wrong with a gentleman opening the car door, and giving "a hand" to help a lady in/out. IMO, of course. Doesn't mean it's done *every* time. There is some discretion at play.


Do guys ever get to be pampered? I guess what it comes down to is that in the case of "doing x for a woman" is a fall back to when men where better than women. It's not something I plan on teaching my children. Just like I plan on teaching them that if something only applies to one gender it no longer holds true that it's the right thing to do.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Do guys ever get to be pampered?


Absolutely.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Do guys ever get to be pampered? I guess what it comes down to is that in the case of "doing x for a woman" is a fall back to when men where better than women. It's not something I plan on teaching my children. *Just like I plan on teaching them that if something only applies to one gender it no longer holds true that it's the right thing to do*.


I agree completely. I feel similarly about it when the issue is adult/child, instead of man/woman. If people want to address my children as "Miss dd1" and "Master ds2" and so on, then I agree that wanting my children to refer to them, in turn, as "Mr. X" and "Ms. Y" is simple manners. Those people want to keep saluatations at a consistent level of formality. When someone wants to call my kids "dd1" and "ds2", but still be referred to as "Mr. X" or "Ms. Y", then it's not just a matter of manners or courtesy. It's a matter of establishing rank and superiority.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Absolutely.


In regards to etiquette, not really. Men are expected to go out of their way to do certain things for women, but I can't come up with one instance where a woman is expected to go out of her way for a man.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

isnt the Sir/Ma'am thing a cultural construct? if dd used it here she would get the looks. like its soo oldfashioned in this part of the US. but i know other areas like the south where it is a norm. yes formally in a business sense that does exist everywhere, but not btw kids and adults.

in fact here i notice its seen as sarcasm.

dd has picked up you open the door for everyone. the moment u go thru a door u turn back to see if anyone is coming and u hold the door for them. u stand up and give up your seat for the bus for the old, parents with children and anyone carrying a lot of things.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lilmom* He has learned by watching us that it is polite to hold the door for others coming behind you.


Lucky you...sigh. Mine doesn't get that. Modeling, I mean. He gets entitlement from me doing those kinds of things, as in, I hold the door for him and he expects it because it's What Mom Does, and he doesn't even say thank-you. When he was about 4, he finally got that he's supposed to say "Excuse me" for bodily noises-- one day, I said "You're supposed to say 'excuse me' when you do that" and he said "But Mom, you've always done it FOR me" (I'd been saying "excuse you" instead of "say excuse me")









He's learning, though, because now I've been actively teaching him (and yeah, making him do it) for awhile now. I am sure to say thank-you to him when he does hold the door. And I do expect him to back out and hold the door for others, not just go through first and hold it backwards as an afterthought.

I am back with my HS sweetheart after 35 years







and he is uber-old-fashioned polite, as in, opening my car door and stuff, and letting me go first through doorways and gates. At first, I expressed discomfort, and he stopped doing it because of that, but then I decided I like it, so it's touch-and-go right now-- sometimes he does and sometimes not. But I guess I had so many years of emotional abuse, and less-than, and inept partners, that it's really nice for a change to be put on a pedestal sometimes.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maiasaura*
> 
> I am back with my HS sweetheart after 35 years
> 
> ...


DH is from Knoxville, and has what many here would consider to be good manners. To me, they're just very old-fashioned (although he has adapted somewhat to the prevailing manners in our area). But, the part of your post that I bolded was something we worked on for a long time. I hate, hate, hate going through the door first...can't stand it. DH trying to "let" me do so just felt like this horrible pressure to go first, even though I absolutely didn't want to. (I think the door thing is related to my lifelong issues with closed doors - I used to sit outside my kindergarten class until they broke for recess, because I tended to get there a minute or two late, and the door was closed, and I couldn't make myself open it or knock.)

I have trouble with that whole category of manners, though. I don't get how letting me go first, just because I'm female, has anything to do with respecting other people. I also agree with MusicianDad. There are "rules" that involve doing special things for women, but except for the built-in assumption that men are at the top of the social hierarchy, the rules of "courtesy" don't seem to include any special treatment for men.


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## Birdie B. (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I have trouble with that whole category of manners, though. I don't get how letting me go first, just because I'm female, has anything to do with respecting other people. I also agree with MusicianDad. There are "rules" that involve doing special things for women, but except for the built-in assumption that men are at the top of the social hierarchy, the rules of "courtesy" don't seem to include any special treatment for men.


It's not a male/female thing. If you're walking along with someone (friend, child, parent, partner, stranger) and you come to a door, it's considerate to let them go first instead of barging ahead of them. Usually doorways are only wide enough for one person at a time, so letting the person you're walking with go ahead is the nice thing to do. Obviously this situation varies if you have full arms or can't open the door yourself or if the person you're walking with beats you to the punch and opens the door. My husband and I have gone through enough doors together that we have fallen into a habit of him opening the door for me, but I think it would be just as polite if I opened the door for him.

I believe that people can be polite to each other, regardless of sex/age/gender.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Birdie B.*
> 
> It's not a male/female thing. If you're walking along with someone (friend, child, parent, partner, stranger) and you come to a door, it's considerate to let them go first instead of barging ahead of them. Usually doorways are only wide enough for one person at a time, so letting the person you're walking with go ahead is the nice thing to do. Obviously this situation varies if you have full arms or can't open the door yourself or if the person you're walking with beats you to the punch and opens the door. My husband and I have gone through enough doors together that we have fallen into a habit of him opening the door for me, but I think it would be just as polite if I opened the door for him.
> 
> I believe that people can be polite to each other, regardless of sex/age/gender.


If it's polite to let the other person go first, then polite people are going to be doing a lot of the "you, no you, no you" dance, aren't they? I've never seen this particular rule couched in anything but gender terms (oh - sometimes as an age thing - but almost always about gender).

And, if it's someone you don't know well, that's one thing. But, dh continued to try to "let" (ie. "make") me go through doorways first for a long time, because he'd been taught that it was good manners. The fact that it imposed a lot of stress on me, and I'd told him so, didn't matter, because being considerate was about the rules, not about consideration. It's not nice to let me go ahead, because I don't bloody want to! I let it go with people who don't know me, because there's no way they can know that it's an issue. But, it's definitely not a "courtesy" that carries any value for me, yk?

And, of course people can be polite to each other, regardless of sex/age/gender. I don't think anybody is arguing that. I'm certainly not. I'm discussing certain specific "rules" of etiquette/courtesy/manners that are deeply rooted in views of age and gender that I don't agree with.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I agree that if you get to a door first, you open it and hold it for everyone else behind you. that IS polite and expected. People aren't talking about that though... they are talking about the rule where men are expected to hold the door for the lady so that she can go through first, even if she reaches the door.

My husband does that and it drives me up the wall. Even when I get to the door first, even when he is holding things... he absolutely will not let me hold the door so he can go through first. I think it is ridiculous. My boobs don't take away my ability to hold the door for someone else, even if they have a penis.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Birdie B.*
> 
> It's not a male/female thing. If you're walking along with someone (friend, child, parent, partner, stranger) and you come to a door, it's considerate to let them go first instead of barging ahead of them. Usually doorways are only wide enough for one person at a time, so letting the person you're walking with go ahead is the nice thing to do. Obviously this situation varies if you have full arms or can't open the door yourself or if the person you're walking with beats you to the punch and opens the door. My husband and I have gone through enough doors together that we have fallen into a habit of him opening the door for me, but I think it would be just as polite if I opened the door for him.
> 
> I believe that people can be polite to each other, regardless of sex/age/gender.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Birdie B.* If you're walking along with someone (friend, child, parent, partner, stranger) and you come to a door, it's considerate to let them go first instead of barging ahead of them.


This. I will happily open the door for my love if I'm the first to reach it, and he will accept it and go first.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3* My husband does that and it drives me up the wall. Even when I get to the door first, even when he is holding things... he absolutely will not let me hold the door so he can go through first. I think it is ridiculous. My boobs don't take away my ability to hold the door for someone else, even if they have a penis.


For me, now, this appears to be a case of is it more important to be right or to be kind (maybe, that's what I'm thinking of







) I say, if it's that important to him, let him have this one. It's not a hill I'd be willing to die on. It might be, for you, though. It's one of those things where in y'all's relationship, you have to decide what's important, his need to open the door for you, or your need to be driven up the wall about it. Whoever it's easier to Let It Go for, that's what I'd do. I think I'm rambling...need more coffee...


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

OMG, MuscianDad, I can't believe you really made that comment.

Her are instances of what women are expected to go out of her way for a man (or men)

Here are a few things I've witnessed and done growing up in the USA

1) Cook & serve a meal and eat in the kitchen with the other women (if any) and children while the adult men eat in the Dining Room. Oh, and clear the meal afterwards and wash all the dishes while the men relax in the Living Room or outside

2) Cook and serve a meal in the kitchen and remain standing until all the men and boys have eaten

3) Clean up a man's clothes that he dropped on the floor, wash them, dry them, fold them, put them away neatly in drawers or closet.

4) Greet a male visitor at the door, take coat, offer food and drink, serve, do not partake, and leave men to their conversation or visit

I'm sure others could come up with other examples.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> In regards to etiquette, not really. Men are expected to go out of their way to do certain things for women, but I can't come up with one instance where a woman is expected to go out of her way for a man.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skreader*
> 
> OMG, MuscianDad, I can't believe you really made that comment.
> 
> ...


I don't see most of these as having anything to do with etiquette, as such. The only one that really falls under the etiquette umbrella, imo, is number four. Mind you, I've also never seen that, so it's hard for me to imagine. Numbers one and two simply aren't the reality of anyone I know (the cooking in a few cases, but not quite the way you describe it - and absolutely NOT the "stay standing until the men and boys have eaten" - that sounds like something out of a bad novel). Number three...not even sure why you included that. I'm a SAHM. While dh does more than his share (and, yes - I mean that - he earns all our money, then comes home and works here all evening and on the weekend), I do tend to do a lot of the laundry, simply because I'm here. It's not about etiquette. It's about the division of labour in our home.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

My kids mostly know not to say fuck in public. Please and thank you, of course. I have to remind them. I've also gotten into saying that you have to express some remorse if you've done something that caused pain, so yeah, say sorry, even if you don't mean it, because you need to acknowledge the other person in some way. I understand not wanting the fake automatic apology, but my younger daughter hates apologizing because she feels like she's admitting she is wrong, and I am tired of that.

We don't say sir or ma'am. They are not part of my culture and seem archaic to me. If I lived in a place where this was common, I'm sure we'd have picked it up. There is a purpose to etiquette, so we follow those rules, but obviously we aren't going to be familiar with the customs of every culture, and I don't think people should take it as a personal affront, you know?


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> In regards to etiquette, not really. Men are expected to go out of their way to do certain things for women, but I can't come up with one instance where a woman is expected to go out of her way for a man.


I dunno, I think the days of men being expected to give up their seats to women went the way of women being expected to freshen their make-up, bring them an evening cocktail when they walk through the door, and actually serve them their food. Even today, though, women who work outside the home still seem to be expected to do the cooking for the family or do the families laundry. I mean I know a lot who don't, and I grew up with a father who cooked, but I'm amazed at the number of people I talk to where there is still the expectation that women will do all the childcare related tasks.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skreader*
> 
> OMG, MuscianDad, I can't believe you really made that comment.
> 
> ...


1, 2, 3 - Not etiquette.

4 - No longer considered "proper etiquette" to most people. Unlike, apparently, holding to door for a woman, opening a car door for a woman, standing up when a woman enters the room...

Sorry but there is a difference between "unequal division of labour in the home" and "manners".


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> I dunno, I think the days of men being expected to give up their seats to women went the way of women being expected to freshen their make-up, bring them an evening cocktail when they walk through the door, and actually serve them their food. Even today, though, women who work outside the home still seem to be expected to do the cooking for the family or do the families laundry. I mean I know a lot who don't, and I grew up with a father who cooked, but I'm amazed at the number of people I talk to where there is still the expectation that women will do all the childcare related tasks.


And I thought the days of opening doors for women, waiting for women to go through a door first, walking closest to the road, had gone the way of the dodo. I also thought that people could understand the difference between "etiquette" and "unequal division of labour in the home"... But apparently, neither of those things are true.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I don't see most of these as having anything to do with etiquette, as such. The only one that really falls under the etiquette umbrella, imo, is number four. Mind you, I've also never seen that, so it's hard for me to imagine. Numbers one and two simply aren't the reality of anyone I know (the cooking in a few cases, but not quite the way you describe it - and absolutely NOT the "stay standing until the men and boys have eaten" - that sounds like something out of a bad novel). Number three...not even sure why you included that. I'm a SAHM. While dh does more than his share (and, yes - I mean that - he earns all our money, then comes home and works here all evening and on the weekend), I do tend to do a lot of the laundry, simply because I'm here. It's not about etiquette. It's about the division of labour in our home.


Thank you for getting it.


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## skreader (Nov 19, 2008)

Hmm.

I think that etiquette (politeness) means behavior that follows accepted social norms in a society, culture, or sub-culture, which is why I think the 4 examples I outlined fall into the area of etqiquette. If I refused (for example) to join the women in the kitchen and insisted on trying to stay with the men in the dining room, I would have been (in the eyes of that social group) very rude.

So, unfair division of labor in a household can be very much a part of etiquette in many cultures, including some that I encountered in the USA. How people divide labor is very much a part of etiqutee, whether the division is based on gender, or age, or social status.

It doesn't just have to be household labor. One time an Aussie told me that in Oz (at least when she was growing up) that if you got into a taxi alone and sat in the back seat, that would be rude, because it would be treating the taxi driver like some sort of servant. If you were traveling alone, you joined the driver in the front seat, not acting "like a snob".

Who takes the first bite of food at a table? When I was a girl, I was taught "Wait for your hostess to take the first bite before you start." Now I live in a place where in a formal or semi-formal setting I need to wait for the "most senior" (usually age) or based on who is the "guest", or "senior guest".

In my eyes, "door opening", "walk on the traffic side of the street" "Yes Ma'am" "Yes Sir" etiquette is part-and-parcel of gender-based & age-based theories of what men, women, and children are like and what sort of work they do, and should do.

To me, etiquette (normative, acceptable social behavior) it is a reflection of people and their cultures' beliefs about power & social personhood. That's why in this thread we see so many disagreements about what constitutes polite behavior.

Quote:



> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> ...


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

arent manners and etiquette kinda two different things. close but different.

like pp pointed out manners is about respect for others while etiquette is a code of behaviour. isnt it etiquette that is culturally different. so what might be seen as good etiquette in one culture might not be in another.

i guess simply put we are talking about teaching our kids about being polite and having respect for others, yet exactly how we do it - for instance the etiquette of refering to adults as sirs and madams might differ culturally.

so while everyone has some form of manners, each will show it differently according to the norms of their society.

cultural groups also live within a culture. so the way a white family might address strangers in georgia might be different than we do in california.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skreader*
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> ...


And, after all that, I'll also say something else that may be unpopular. I've been hearing about women doing the lion's share of the housework, even though they're in the work force, for over two decades. BTDT, even - I did all the housework, cooking, and 95%+ of the childcare in the last couple years with my ex, even though I was the one earning the money we lived on. However, I also chose to stay in a marriage that was failing on every possible level for that period of time, which means I chose to be an unpaid servant in my own home. IME, the majority of cases where the woman is doing the lion's share of the work fall into one of two categories. Category one is women like me, who choose, for whatever reason, to stay with guys who are borderline (or not so borderline) emotionally abusive and have serious issues with mental health, often including addiction and/or are all around abusive in every way. In those cases, the housework isn't really the biggest issue, yk? Category two is women who want their partners to be equal partners in sharing the load...but don't want to give up their authority in the house. He has to do his share, but he has to do it the way she wants it done, not the way he wants it done. It's very clearn in these homes that she's the boss, and it's her house, but he's still supposed to do half the work. I'm not sure I'd do my share under those conditions, either.

Mind you, if a guy is expecting his wife to wait on him hand and foot, I think he's a jerk. I wouldn't stay with someone like that again (although that wasn't exactly my ex's issue, anyway - he just didn't give a crap if we lived in a pigsty, or if we ate real meals, or if ds1 went to school, so he didn't feel he should have to do anything about those things). At some point, if women are still doing the lion's share of the housework, and earning the money, it's because we're choosing to do it.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> For me, *ma'am and sir was something that was shoved down my throat from the time I was litttle to indicate that I was a lesser person than the adult I was talking to. I dont think I am any better than my child*, nor do I feel like adults need a "title" to show respect. There are so many other ways to show respect. I will teach Miss first name, Miss Last name, or first name, depending on how comfortable the adult is with it. I want her to realize that you have to talk to different people in different ways. For example, if you are being pulled over, its more likely that you would say "sir" to a cop to "show respect" and hopefully not get a ticket. If you are going to church with grandma (yeah right) you should call people by "Mrs. Lastname" because all of those people are in their 70's and they were raised to think that was what manners were. If you call one of those women by their first name, they arent going to think its cute if you are over 4.


I was never taught to say ma'am and sir, myself, but I did live in Alabama for a while so I saw it in action. And it always felt to me like what you're saying. I found it pretty creepy and belittling of the child. And to be required to call your parents ma'am and sir is just over the top. To me, that implies a very formal relationship where "politeness" is valued over closeness. It's putting up barriers and highlighting differences, rather than valuing togetherness.

As for please and than you and all that stuff, I encourage it especially outside the house. At home, I am more concerned with teaching them to be considerate and to refrain from being overly demanding and/or rude.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> And I thought the days of opening doors for women, waiting for women to go through a door first, walking closest to the road, had gone the way of the dodo. I also thought that people could understand the difference between "etiquette" and "unequal division of labour in the home"... But apparently, neither of those things are true.


They have gone the way of the dodo, and I certainly understand that you are rude. I do understand the difference between division of labor and etiquette, but there isn't always a dividing line and conversations go on to encompass broader things. Like when we have discussions about pet peeves and people list things that clearly aren't peeves because one thing follows from another. You're on here complaining about why men are never pampers, how it never works the other way, of course people are going to bring up other things than what you narrowly define as etiquette as opposed to cultural practices. Giving up a seat on a bus and serving your husband at dinner are both more in the line of etiquette than labor to me, but they both involve labor.

The idea behind why a woman might be expected to do one thing and a man the other are rooted in some of the same beliefs. And you can't look at etiquette in some complete vacuum without considering how class/race/gender inequities help to define these things.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> They have gone the way of the dodo, and I certainly understand that you are rude.


But they haven't gone the way of the dodo, there are people in this very thread who feel it is important to teach their son's to treat women like children in that very manner. You are right that they are rooted in the same inequities as other issues that discriminate against women. I am thinking (hoping?) that you and I are actually on the same page here. It seems so. I'm simply arguing that there are certain "rules" that I won't teach my children (like men need to walk closest to the road, open car doors for a woman, etc) simply because of the inequalities that they represent.

This seems to be the part that your missing:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mtiger*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Oh yes, I forgot these. Also, *opening car doors for ladies, walking on the street side of a lady*, no hats indoors.

One thing I do wish is that more people would acknowledge the behavior. For example, both of my kids open/hold doors for others. I can't begin to tell you how many people just walk on through w/o a word. It's somewhat discouraging, ya know?


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I have trouble with that whole category of manners, though. I don't get how letting me go first, just because I'm female, has anything to do with respecting other people. I also agree with MusicianDad. There are "rules" that involve doing special things for women, but except for the built-in assumption that men are at the top of the social hierarchy, the rules of "courtesy" don't seem to include any special treatment for men.












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> I agree that if you get to a door first, you open it and hold it for everyone else behind you. that IS polite and expected.


It's polite to a point. If you are more than ten feet ahead of me, please just go through the door and let it shut. Especially if my hands aren't full. I absolutely hate it when someone waaaay ahead of me holds the door for me, forcing me to feel like I have to run to catch up to him so he can go on his way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Viola*
> 
> They have gone the way of the dodo, and I certainly understand that you are rude.


How so?

With regards to "Greet a male visitor at the door, take coat, offer food and drink, serve, do not partake, and leave men to their conversation or visit...." I wouldn't associate with people who expect that sort of treatment, and I'm sure the reverse is true, as well.


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## Dacks (Jun 7, 2011)

Sir and Ma'am.... If I ever said "Yes Ma'am" to my mother it would have been in a heated, teenager-slamming-doors, kind of argument. We were never forced to say it, so it was definitely a way to say "ok, fine, you're the boss, but I don't have to like it!" It really is all about tone, and underlying meaning!

There are so many different cultures, even within the US and not all regional, that it is really hard translating from one to the other. In the Air Force, it was very common to address anyone else as Sir/Ma'am, regardless of their rank relative to you, and regardless of their enlisted or commissioned status. This was especially true in my job, which had a strong customer-support element. I did a joint services assignment and let me tell you, when I called an enlisted person of any other service Sir or Ma'am, I would get me rump handed back to me! They would say it showed extreme lack of respect for enlisted people. It didn't stop me, though, because it was so ingrained into my military training that it was like telling me not to breathe! It also didn't mean that reciprocally they would call USAF people Sir/Ma'am, and unless they were willing to bend their habits to fit us, why would we do it to fit them?

Will I teach my kids to use Sir/Ma'am? Absolutely not. They will learn to navigate a variety of different cultures in their lives. Sometimes it is appropriate to change your speech to fit another person's culture, and sometimes you will decide to hold onto your own culture in the face of differences.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dacks*
> 
> In the Air Force, it was very common to address anyone else as Sir/Ma'am, regardless of their rank relative to you, and regardless of their enlisted or commissioned status. This was especially true in my job, which had a strong customer-support element. I did a joint services assignment and let me tell you, when I called an enlisted person of any other service Sir or Ma'am, I would get me rump handed back to me! They would say it showed extreme lack of respect for enlisted people.


"Don't call me Ma'am....I *work* for a living."









I never knew that about the AF....it's the one branch of service I haven't spent much time around.


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## Dacks (Jun 7, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> "Don't call me Ma'am....I *work* for a living."
> 
> ...


It is true. We generally go with the idea that as long as you are speaking respectfully in tone, then you are being respectful, and that all ranks deserve respect until it is shown otherwise. When any rank came to my office to get their password reset, I would say yes Sir/Ma'am, and they would say thank you Ma'am. This held true from the shiny new Airman Basic, right up to the Colonel.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dacks*
> 
> It is true. We generally go with the idea that as long as you are speaking respectfully in tone, then you are being respectful, and that all ranks deserve respect until it is shown otherwise. When any rank came to my office to get their password reset, I would say yes Sir/Ma'am, and they would say thank you Ma'am. This held true from the shiny new Airman Basic, right up to the Colonel.


Well, I was enlisted in the Navy and wasn't ever called Ma'am by a higher ranking person. But that's okay....at least they didn't force me to go to church.


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## Dacks (Jun 7, 2011)

touché


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i notice different 'cultures' have different etiquette rules.

for instance in non formal settings i have never used sir or ma'am. however in the business and working environment, with higher ups and strangers - absolutely i used sir and ma'am esp. when i didnt know names (whew TG for sir/ma'am since i am quite bad with names). esp. in hospitality industry. i've seen the recruitment officer that hangs out in our school talk to students using sir/ma'am.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> It's polite to a point. If you are more than ten feet ahead of me, please just go through the door and let it shut. Especially if my hands aren't full. I absolutely hate it when someone waaaay ahead of me holds the door for me, forcing me to feel like I have to run to catch up to him so he can go on his way.


This, exactly. I totally agree that it's rude to just let a door swing shut into someone's face. But, I can remember walking down a flight of stairs after an ultrasound or physio appoinkment. There was a door to the outside at the bottom and a man went through it while I was still 6-8 stairs up (at the bottom, there was a stretch of about four or five feet to the door itself). He just stood there holding it and looking at me, as if he was wondering why I was taking so long, and obviously wishing I'd hurry up. When one is doing someone else a courtesy and that "courtesy" is causing the other person extra hassle (ie. hurrying for the door), then something is out of whack.

I think door holding makes sense if someone is right behind you and is going to get hit. I think it makes sense if the person has their hands full (I certainly never argued with someone holding the door while I was wrestling a stroller and some shopping bags, and I certainly hold the door when I see someone loaded down with bags or walking with a cane or crutches or anything like that. I just don't get the whole "holding the door from 10 feet away" thing!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

We're in NJ and sir and ma'am are not the norm here. Please and thank you for sure! Something that is more than manners is just cultivating an open and friendly disposition--and we struggle with that with DD. She's not always friendly and sometimes she is shy, but sometimes it does verge on rudeness. So, we're working on at that. (She's 6.) I think a friendly hello with a smile is just as acceptable as a Hello Ma'am or Hello Miss Ellen, in general.

That said, we live in NJ and my family moved to South Carolina about ten years ago, and the expectations are very different down there. They like sir and ma'am and to be called Miss or Mister XYZ. Now that she's big enough to understand and speak for herself we usually just have a quick talk about it before we go visit and I let her know that those kind of manners would be appreciated. Sometimes she remembers, sometimes not so much, but I appreciate that she tries. We also deal with a lot of older people down there, when we are visiting, and it truly does matter to them, so we make an effort. I think making an effort is polite.

Here in NJ, I usually introduce grownups to DD with Mr/Mrs/Miss Lastname and then the adult laughs and says "Call me First Name!" and that's it. People in NJ don't seem particularly worked up over being "respected" by children or adults. I will say, I see positives in both places. It's nice to feel like things in NJ are more egalitarian, and care less about trivial things like honorifics. But for sure, people here can be insanely rude and the bar is set so low that just going to the supermarket here can be a crappy ordeal where I feel like I am dealing with Cashier Snooki's bad attitude...I love SC and think there is a certain pleasantness everywhere there--whether it's a family gathering or going to the supermarket--that just removes a layer of stress. At the same time, since I wasn't raised that way it takes me a tremendous amount of conscious effort to be reciprocate!


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## CheeChee (Jun 30, 2011)

Good God...don't teach your kids to say sir and ma'am! Especially ma'am. It's not a polite way of addressing someone in casual situations in today's world, it's just annoying and weird. It can also be insulting to a lot of women, and can be viewed as being intentionally insulting..either by calling the woman old or addressing the woman in a sexist way (there's no alternative to ma'am for younger men, and the term is meant for addressing married women). Also, in most parts of the country, the use of ma'am and sir is seen as low class (except maybe when it's used in the military).


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CheeChee*
> 
> Good God...don't teach your kids to say sir and ma'am! Especially ma'am. It's not a polite way of addressing someone in casual situations in today's world, it's just annoying and weird. It can also be insulting to a lot of women, and can be viewed as being intentionally insulting..either by calling the woman old or addressing the woman in a sexist way (there's no alternative to ma'am for younger men, and the term is meant for addressing married women). Also, in most parts of the country, the use of ma'am and sir is seen as low class (except maybe when it's used in the military).


Really?

WE say Ma'am aand Sir, and my kids still say Miss or Mr first name most of the time. They also hold doors, say pardon me instead of What? or Wha?, they shake hands and DS has started saying "after you" while letting someone in font of him.

But we're just a bunch of low class, offensive, sexist weirdos.


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## seawitch (Jan 29, 2011)

We have moved around regions a lot but I consistently have the kids call grown ups by "miss first name". It seems to me to be polite but not overly formal. When I was little in the northeast the only American grownups I was ever around were my teachers and other kids' parents and they were all called "Ms. Lastname". We encourage ma'am and sir, but not to us - but they do have to say yes mommy, no daddy.

As far as door opening, I think it's natural that a man would open a building door for a woman if they're walking together. Car doors are another thing, though. I think it's stilted to wait there awkwardly and have the guy run around and such. I just don't feel comfortable with it. But I expect the door to a building to be held for me if a man is a couple of steps ahead of me. I certainly wouldn't expect him to pass me to open the door ahead of me. I also feel weird if a strange man who's with his wife, for example, is ahead of me, opens the door for his wife, and then expects me to step through as well before he enters. I feel like I'm getting in between him and his wife and that's odd. I'd rather in that case that he step through and hold the door for me that way. lol, convoluted, isn't it? There are so many intricacies of etiquette... I find it fascinating to read etiquette books from 35, 50, 100 years ago and see how people did things then and the sheer amount of things people were expected to keep in mind to be polite.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Phew, I thought I was the only "unmannerly" person on here, haha.

I am deeply opposed to sir/ma'am.

I hate titles. My nieces call me by my first names, my nanny kid's friends call me by my first name and I will someday insist my children's friends call me by my first name.

I really think that simply living is the best way to instill manners. For instance, my nanny kid is 7. He sees me hold doors open for people all the time. A few weeks ago, he ran ahead of me and opened a door for a lady and her small child. Kids like to mimic and model. Most of them will pick up the basics. If you tell your toddler "please hand me the ball," "thank you for handing me the ball, " and so on, they'll probably get the picture. Of course there will always be kids who need a little extra help, but most will be fine.

I also really think that most "manners" are pure habit. When someone holds the door open for me, I say "thank you" out of habit. I'm not actually pondering my state of thankfulness.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

It was funny to see this thread pop up again now. I didn't read or respond when it was first posted and didn't follow it. However, I was thinking about manners and etiquette yesterday. After spending some time and putting some thought into a fairly lengthy response to a request, the OP did not post a "thank you" or any acknowledgement of my offering. Instead, she asked for more. There was no "thanks in advance" in her first post and none in her later response. And funny enough, no one else has responded. I understand that she may be rushed or distracted and simply forgot. I understand that she may assume that her gratitude is implied. I understand we may have cultural differences and that she may think that saying thanks isn't important. It took me a minute to remind myself of all of this though. I'm extending the benefit of the doubt, but my initial gut response when I read her second post was not favourable.

I think manners and etiquette lubricate the social machinery and help make everything run just a little smoother. They provide positive reinforcement to act well towards each other. Most times, manners are a really just an expression of thoughtfulness toward another person. Life in the 21st century is pretty stressful. Using good manners extends a little grace into another's life for a brief moment. And that's something worthwhile to nurture.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm only up to page 3, so this may be edited after I finish the thread. The phrase "Bless your heart" makes me go:







In my experience this phrase is usually used in a sarcastic, "I'm being a witch but you have to suck it up and take it because I said it in a nice way" thing. It makes me so angry that I want to spit nails and punch people in the face. If you want to be rude to me, just be freakin rude to me. Stop acting like you are special because you can be nasty in a two faced way.

*ahem* That said, my daughter says Sir and Ma'am and please and thank you, etc. She does these things because I model them. When she asks me a question I respond with, "Yes, Ma'am."







I know it is only supposed to be for older people, but I like it. So I use it. I also answer my husband with "Yes, Sir." And we aren't military or southern. I'm a weird California hippy freak and I just think they sound nice.










Edit! After reading this whole long thread the main thing I am compelled to add is that the only time in my life I have dealt with a man who wanted to hold my car door for me it was in an established D/s (Dominant/submissive) bdsm relationship. I think that if anyone else ever did it to me I would freak out because I have not agreed to be your submissive!


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> What about masochists? Should they treat others the way they'd like to be treated?


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## bonamarq (Oct 18, 2006)

I was just thinking this - We model and now expect (age 7) please and thank you/excuse me - but not ma'am or sir - One thing I've noticed as a regional difference is people here (WV) say "I don't care" when they mean 'I don't mind" but when my dd says this it sounds rude to me (although she really hasn't it meant it that way) We are trying to get her to say 'mind' instead

I think manners is a matter of respect and your attitude and tone convey that far more than acutal words and I try to keep that our focus - Sorry can sound extremely rude and be worse than nothing at all -


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