# Is there room for "punishment" in GD?



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I've recently had an "incident" with a friend. She spanks and firmly believes in punishment as the only way to discipline. She buys the whole lot about kids testing you, you must start early, etc...and she wonders why her strong-willed 5 year old just gets more and more to handle every day.







:

Anyways, I was writing to her explaining that my method of discipline (GD) does not use punishment, that many families around the world successfully use this method, etc.

But here on these boards I see references to parents who use punishments (the time-out threads come to mind), or who say they "have no problem with punishment".

At the risk of starting a labelling war....is punishment a part of GD? Or is GD just about not hitting. I always thought that GD was about non-punishment based discipline methods.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

I thought it was about no punishment.

I get confused, too. A lot of the "positive parenting" and AP-discipline books out there *do* talk about using time-outs, and consequences.

I guess there is a continuum of methods that AP type parents end up doing.

Sometimes I wonder if some things are just semantics. For instance, if toddler is acting up and hitting other kids, mom takes him out of situation and goes home. I see scenarios like that here, and this is not considered punishment. I mean, doing nothing at all would be permissive parenting, right? But I do think that a small child could perceive many things as punishment, even if they are logical and GD-based. A very sensitive child will think the world is falling apart if mom removes him from a situation for his or others safety. He may even feel as though he is being punished, even if he doesn't get a "time out" or spanking.

Maybe some of the difference is also in the spirit in which the parenting is done. Such as, a time-out can be as simple as mom/dad recognizing child is overstimulated and having trouble not grabbing from other kids. Mom takes him aside with her for a minute, to take a break and help him calm down. This is essentially a time-out. And may be necessary in some situations. But a time-out can also be the same situation, except with the parent yelling and forcing child to go sit by himself for a set amount of time. This way seems more like a punishment to me, whereas the first is about helping the child to feel better so he can act better.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think of GD as parenting without punishment but I admit that I do see that there can be times that "time out" would be considered a natural or logical consequence to a behavior rather than punishment.

For purposes of this discussion, however, I will state that while I don't have a problem with time outs used in this fashion, they are completely ineffective for my DD and I don't use them.

I agree that there is also the great possibility that this is one of those grey areas of semantics. For example, it may be considered "punishment" to make a child sit in a stroller if they don't want to be there. If you knew the circumstance was that the child was unwilling to hold hands walking through a parking lot and was too big for a sling, you might see that the stroller is therefore a natural consequence to an unwillingness to hold hands.

If you saw a child sitting miserably in a stroller and you knew that the child was there because the mother wanted her to try on shoes at the shoe store and she was refusing, that might therefore be considered a "punishment".

I think it is important to analyze what preceded the so-called "punishment" because in fact it might just be a natural or logical consequence.

I think of GD as much more than just not spanking - to me it is also not very GD to lecture your child about their behavior in front of others. I think that those types of discussions should be done privately so that the child doesn't have any feeling of humiliation at being reprimanded in front of others. GD is about preserving the dignity of a child, about treating them with the same respect you would expect from them.

Interesting question!


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## laurajean (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't think there is room for punishment in gentle discipline. And, the type of time out where a child sits by themselves is considered punishment in my book...

I do what most others here do, give choices, allow for natural consequences and learning experiences, and talk.... I think that setting appropriate limits and having reasonable expectations are keys to avoiding conflicts.

~Laura


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

I always thought that "pure gentle discipline" was disciplining without punishment. Disciplining without hitting is part of that, but not all of it. I know people that don't neccesarily hit their children but they are NOT gentle in the least.....


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I'm one of the people who has no problem with punishment.

I do think a lot of it is semantics. I intensely dislike a lot of euphamisms. No matter how much I read about "consequences" and the like, I think it is still punishment. My kid wouldn't care whether she couldn't do X because she is being punished or because it is a consequence of Y. She's still going to be ticked that she can't do it.

There is also the problem of different kids having different temperaments. I have two who are like night and day. Each is motivated very differently and they respond to discipline in distinct ways. As an example, one of mine is very, very sensitive to having adults raise their voices--she'd rather do ten time outs. The other is impervious to yelling. I guess what I'm saying is that what would be gd to one would be very harsh to the other.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

That's a hard question to answer.

How old is the child and what sort of punishment are you talking about.

My kids are OLD compared to some of these kids.

I would challenge a lot of moms (in a sweet loving throw my hands up sort of way!) to deal with my dd who is 8 (well 9 in about 2mos) without any form of 'punishment'. You know, even the word 'punishment' sounds so harsh. It sounds like spanking.

I hear a lot of people bashing dr phil for his theory on working with kids and using their 'currency'. I will agree that with young (young) children that may seem unfair. But when you send a 10 year old upstairs to brush his teeth and 2 SECONDS later he has turned on the TV (and a very inappropriate show with his 6 yr old brother in the room! GRRRRR) and is sitting on his BUTT! Sorry - the tv goes! Is that punishment?

Man! I started ranting on your thread! Sorry about that.

Anyway, I think it's just like the CIO thread - it is individual. It depends on ages and stages. It depends on what definition of punishment you are talking about. Natural consequences work great for little ones. Not so good for older ones.......

Sorry I got on a soap box. I really didn't mean to.

And my post is really light hearted and goofy - hope that comes across - maybe I should put in some smilies.....


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think there's a lot of confusion with the terms "natural consequences", "logical consequences", and "punishment".

Natural consequences are those that occur naturally, without intervention from a parent. Making a child who runs in a parking lot sit in a stroller is not a "natural consequence". If a child is teasing a cat and the cat scratches the child, that's a natural consequence.

Logical consequences are punishments with a connection to the "offense". A punishment as something you do to someone after he does something, to try to decrease the likelihood that he'll repeat an action. So, if a child teases the cat and you remove the child from the room where the cat lives, that's a punishment that is also a logical consequence. If you make him sit in the time-out chair for 5 minutes, that's just a punishment. I do think intent can determine whether or not something is a punishment... so if you approach the cat-teaser and say, "Hey, that's not kind. Let's give Pepper a break and go tear some lettuce", and the child thinks this sounds like more fun and goes with you, that's not a punishment, that's problem-solving.... even though the end result is the same as with the logical consequence above, i.e., the child leaves the cat's room.

With that said, I do try not to use any forms of punishment, and I've been parenting without punishment for 11+ years now, through easy years and really, really hard years. I have slipped and threatened punishments, but I've always taken it back after I calmed down and we talked. Some people would consider that wishy-washy, but since my daughter knows that I don't believe in punishment, it seemed like the only way to be true to my own beliefs and allow her to trust that I'll do what I say.

I'm not sure if I think gentle discipline means no punishment - I like the idea of a continuum, with no punishment on one end.I think gentle discipline must be non-violent and respectful, and solution-oriented rather than training-oriented. Not punishing is a goal, not a requirement.

Dar


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I'm not sure if I think gentle discipline means no punishment - I like the idea of a continuum, with no punishment on one end.I think gentle discipline must be non-violent and respectful, and solution-oriented rather than training-oriented. Not punishing is a goal, not a requirement.

Dar

I like that. That sounds nice. Very well put.

In a perfect world, I would love to be able to talk and work through each problem. I strive to be a better parent and do just that. I believe a lot of it is circumstantial. I have three kids, three years apart. It's hard to put that into practice. I have noticed that my younger two are MUCH more manipulative and sneaky. They are more observant than the eldest and put it into practice so to speak.

Isn't it just great though, that they are so different and such individuals.

Nice post Dar!

lisa


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow, these are great responses!

A situation arose this evening that brought this thread even more to my mind...

DD has just, literally in the last 2 days or so, begun to venture into the category of doing things she is asked not to do. Up until now, discipline consisted mostly of getting her to do things, not NOT do things.

So we've been working on keeping her crayons in the open box on the coffee table, rather than scattered all over the place. I feel she is ready for this lesson. Tonight she picked up the box, I asked her to put it down and not dump them out. She looked right at me, and dumped them, then giggled.

I stared at her, expressionless. As in, "we are not amused". Before I could decide how to react next, DH pipes up from the sofa "okay, DD, no more swing then". "Swing" is this game they play where he holds her and swings her in the air. They had been doing this several minutes before the crayon incident. At the time of the incident, she had neither asked for "swing", nor was she expecting it. It was obvious to me that what he said didn't even register to her. But I was not happy.

I said that it was a completely illogical statement. What does the swing game have to do with the crayons. Not to mention, it was so out of context I don't think she even understood what he was saying. I said to him, since you aren't planning on playing that game, what are you going to do, wait until tomorrow and then bring this up again? Like she is even capable of connecting two such distant events.

He asks me what I would do, and I said "logical consequences", such as removing the crayons temporarily (note: I'm not decided on this yet; this is new territory for me and I'm still searching for a method). He says "both are punishments to her".

Now, forgetting for a minute the whole time factor, but he has a point, and it's a point others here have made, like EFMom. From the child's POV, punishment sucks, whether it's related or not. And logical consequences (defined as Dar did) still mean the parent must perform the punishment, and therefore exercise power over the child.

So, after that long winded story, I'm beginning to search within myself for the distinctions desribed here, and decide what to do (that's for another thread, however).

So, are "logical consequences" perceived by the child differently than "random consequences" if both are acheived due to the authority/power of the adult?? And if so, how does this fit in (or not) with GD?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

You know, I'm not always sure where the line is exactly between consequences and punishment. But in my mind they have to be correlated with the action somehow. So yes, I would agree with your response Piglet, to the crayon incident. If ds does stuff like that, then the crayons get put away. To say no more swinging would be a punishment, and even if that was cool with me, at that age I think they are way too young to correlate that. (I almost laughed when I heard dh, in a moment of frustration, say to ds "If you don't stop doing such and such, you're going in the corner." It was so ridiculous that I couldn't even take it seriously. Not only have we never done any kind of corner punishment, or even a time out, but just the idea of watching him try to enforce such a thing made it hard for me not to laugh.)

Someone mentioned above that putting a kid in the stroller if they run in the parking lot is punishment. While I have not yet had to deal with that decision, I'm not sure that I agree. If they are not going to listen to basic safety instructions when in a parking lot, then they need to be kept safe another way, which may be the stroller. I can see how this may be considered a natural consequence rather than a punishment. When ds wouldn't hold my hand crossing the street, I had to pick him up and carry him, which he was not happy about.

I'm kind of racking my brain to see if I can recall doing anything that I would consider punishment rather than a consequence. If ds plays too rough, despite repeated requests to be gentle, then I walk away and don't play with him anymore. If he hits the china cabinet with his golf club, we put away the golf club. I can't really think of anything that I would consider punishment off the top of my head, but again, it may come down to individual differences in the way it is defined. Today my neighbor told her ds that if he hit my ds again they were going home. Later on he hit my ds, and she carried him kicking and screaming out the door. So was that punishment, or a natural consequence?

I can see punishment being used with an older child - grounded for breaking curfew, for instance. Some could argue that this is a natural consequence, but I could also see how it is considered a punishment as well.

So I guess my answer to your original question would have to be that no, punishment does not have a place in gentle discipline. But I can see where there is a gray area about what is punishment and what isn't.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Someone mentioned above that putting a kid in the stroller if they run in the parking lot is punishment. While I have not yet had to deal with that decision, I'm not sure that I agree. If they are not going to listen to basic safety instructions when in a parking lot, then they need to be kept safe another way, which may be the stroller. I can see how this may be considered a natural consequence rather than a punishment. When ds wouldn't hold my hand crossing the street, I had to pick him up and carry him, which he was not happy about.


That was me! And I must have really been typing incoherently because I think I was misunderstood by Dar, too.

What I meant to say is that if one were to see a child sitting in a stroller looking miserable, the circumstances that led to it could have been a logical consequence (such as he was running in the parking lot and therefore needed to stay in the stroller for his own safety) or a punishment (i.e., he didn't want to try on shoes at the shoe store and his mother stuck him in the stroller for misbehaving). I know that the natural consequence for running in the street is to be hit by a car, therefore I was defining it as a "logical" rather than a "natural" consequence.

But what I was trying to say (in my incoherence!) is that the end result is the same: a child is forced to sit in a stroller against his will. The reasons why may vary, but therefore, does that make sitting in the stroller a punishment or a logical consequence? I was saying something about how a lot of this GD stuff can involve parsing semantics.

At least I think I was saying this. I may have confused myself (and all of you) even more so by trying to explain myself.

Bowing out now until I have something coherent to say....


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

But wait! I'm back. Piglet, I understand what you are chewing on and I have had similar discussions with my DH. Yes, taking away the crayons are a punishment in your DD's eyes. But the connection between "dumping crayons" and "losing crayons" is one that will not be made overnight, it will take months and months (and months!) for that type of message to sink in. But it will sink in if done consistently. If random consequences (or punishments) are inflicted (i.e., "no swinging") then the child has no chance to develop the ability to link the events of dumping crayons means no crayons. Dumping crayons could mean no swinging. Or no video. Or no playground. And that is why so many kids get confused and seem to be out of control - they are out of control because they don't understand the connections between what they do and the resultant "punishment" (or consequence!).

Now, I know you didn't ask







but I will say that I think a better consequence to this scenario is that she is taught to help clean up the crayons. Therefore, you don't have DH on your case about how it is a punishment.

Or you could do what I do....wait until she's in bed and then clean up the crayons yourself!

Oh lordy mama, save this post. In a few months you'll be wishing for the days when dumped crayons were her biggest infraction! And you'll have all of us to help you through it!


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

My son is only 9 months old and we have a long way to go before the more complicated stuff starts (right now I'm just redirecting/diverting my li'l crawler), but I've committed myself to GD. I'm watching this thread with interest.

I really admire what Lab and Dar have said. Well said, both of you









I think there's a balance in everything and each child, as each parent-child relationship, is unique. The best I can come up with is "know your child" and go from there. If you know your child falls apart at the slightest raise in voice, something else may be in order, something gentler just might work.

From all my readings (and I've read a lot of books already) I gleaned that discipline is like medicine. Make up your mind what the last resort is in your mind (mine is time-out). Think of other, gentler, more low-keyed solutions you like, write them down, post them somewhere. Back to the medicine analogy, always try the lowest "dosage" first, and hey, it just might work. Why resort to e.g. logical consequences when a simple explanation might have done it? If it doesn't work, work your way up on the ladder (I have many before my last resort). I may never have to use time-out. Let's hope so.

Cheers!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

One thing I'm hearing from pretty much everyone who has posted is that they want their child to understand the paradigm that if they do something "wrong", something unpleasant will happen (or something pleasant *won't* happen). Psychologically speaking, that's pretty much the definition of punishment. It doesn't matter of you're talking about losing the option to walk in a parking lot or play with crayons or brush one's teeth when one choses.

Not punishing means I advise, I predict, I suggest, I distract, I brainstorm, I change my behavior, I let it go, I talk about my needs and feelings, and probably lots of other things. I have a whole lot of tools to use because I chose *not* to punish. In some ways it's much harder, but also, after 11 years of working things out, my kid has the expectation that issues between us *will* be worked out in a way that is at least acceptable to both of us. It's more like the relationship most of us have with power-equals - spouses, friends, whatever. And it does work...

dar


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

I can understand where semantics come into play, discipline and punishment are on a continuum. I think penalties are imposed as a form of restitution if you will -eye for an eye and that is not the same IMO as making amends as is the case with gentle discipline. I also believe punishments are directed at the person not the behavior. GD is directed at the behavior leaving the childs and parents dignity intact. Punishments do not seem to speak to the underlying reasons why a behavior occurs. From the childs viewpoint all logical consequences will not be pleasant but they will be behavior specific quite different than a punshment IMO.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

This is the best thing I have read about the difference between punishment and discipline:

Discipline Gives Life to Learning

1.Is always solution oriented.

2.Shows kids specifically what they have done wrong, or states the problem clearly.

3.Gives kids ownership of the problem and encourages them to be responsible.

4.Leaves their dignity intact and is always respectful.

5.Never threatens withdrawal of parental love.

6.Strives for a win-win situation.

Punishment Fuels the Fires Of Resentment, Anger and Revenge or Forces retreat and withdrawal

1.Punishment is reactionary.

2.Does something to the child.

3. It is adult oriented and suits the parent's needs.

4. Teaches kids to avoid punishment.

5. Is only "effective" as long as the fear of punishment is prevalent.

6.Does not invite the child's participation in solving problems.

7.Perpetuates the game of win and lose.

Every time you need to discipline your child, ask yourself: "Is this discipline aimed at helping my child find a solution to the problem at hand?"* If your answer is no, it is not discipline, but punishment.

It's interesting that we use punishment because we want children to feel badly for what they've done - we want them to develop a conscience - we want to teach them right from wrong. Yet when I ask parents to remember back to a time when they were punished, few of them remember feeling badly about what they'd done and fewer still report a desire to make amends for their wrongdoing. Some of them couldn't even remember what they'd done! Often, people remember only their anger towards their punisher.*

When we punish kids we back them into the corner.* We don't give them space to feel badly for what they've done wrong.* If we want children to be responsible - we must give them the space and skills to be able to respond.

We want our children to view discipline as something to strive toward in their lives because it will help them achieve what they want.* Punishment used as discipline turns discipline into something children want to avoid at all costs.* Punishment teaches children avoid getting caught and can put children into danger.* It provokes rebellion and resentment or forces kids into retreat.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

That mast paragraph rings so true with me. I want my DD to have self-discipline. I want her to make the same decision she would make if I were standing over her shoulder when I am not there, KWIM?

Piglet - a solution to the crayons - keep them in a basket. Where it's easy for your child to dump the out and put them back without too much effort.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Ok! Let's continue in the same vien.

I am hearing a lot of great ideas for young children. But my children are much older.

Here's the scenario. It's bedtime. I have to work the next morning early and have a babysitter coming. I want the children (3 kids - 3 years apart - 10, almost 9 and almost 7) to pick up their toys and mess from the day, brush teeth, blah blah blah. I explain to the kids that if they get everything picked up and all goes well the next morning while the babysitter is here, we'll go to the waterpark when I get home. I explained that if I have to come home and do a lot of work, then we can't go.

So of course, they all mess around. Not only do they NOT do what I want, but it is almost 9 pm and all three are literally RUNNING through the house. Now this may not seem like a big deal to some, but seriously, you've got three kids, two of them almost 5 feet tall, running around like monkeys, playing a battle game (or kitty or whatever it is they call it). I am VERY frustrated. I tell them no water park.

Honestly, I appreciate that I could have sat down with them and talked. But sheeeeesh, what is wrong with asking a 9 and 10 year old to brush their teeth and expecting them to do it. Plus, it was late, I was tired and they were completely ignoring me. I should not have to stand over them to get them to do something at this age.

I will say however, that I love luckylady's post and plan to put it on my fridge. What a great way to instill in parents the ideas of discipline.

Anyway, any ideas. I want the kids and I to have a fun, easy summer. I know, 100% for sure, that I need to be more patient. And consistent. But come on, I get tired of asking if the bed is made and the kid going into hysterics.

Didn't mean to hyjack the thread. I really do get curious about GD from the aspect of older children.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I think of GD as gentle discipline- and some punishment can be gentle. So I think there is room for it. However, I personally don't agree with actual punishment unless it is in the form of a natural consequence (you hit again, so we have to go)

I also know a woman who woudl send her kids to a talking spot when they would fight. She had 5 kids and they'd come to her yelling and wailing about each other. she'd send them to talk and they could leave the spot when they were both happy with the outcome of talking it out (older children). The one time I saw it they sat there resenting each other for a minute and slowly started talking about it and then it got to smiles and then they were off playing again. I don't really consider that punishment, but it has a similar ring to it.

All in all I think if someone gently punishes their children it is their choice and right. I just choose not to. I'm just happy that they are using non-violent forms of communication.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
This is the best thing I have read about the difference between punishment and discipline:

Discipline Gives Life to Learning

1.Is always solution oriented.

2.Shows kids specifically what they have done wrong, or states the problem clearly.

3.Gives kids ownership of the problem and encourages them to be responsible.

4.Leaves their dignity intact and is always respectful.

5.Never threatens withdrawal of parental love.

6.Strives for a win-win situation.

Punishment Fuels the Fires Of Resentment, Anger and Revenge or Forces retreat and withdrawal

1.Punishment is reactionary.

2.Does something to the child.

3. It is adult oriented and suits the parent's needs.

4. Teaches kids to avoid punishment.

5. Is only "effective" as long as the fear of punishment is prevalent.

6.Does not invite the child's participation in solving problems.

7.Perpetuates the game of win and lose.

Every time you need to discipline your child, ask yourself: "Is this discipline aimed at helping my child find a solution to the problem at hand?"* If your answer is no, it is not discipline, but punishment.

It's interesting that we use punishment because we want children to feel badly for what they've done - we want them to develop a conscience - we want to teach them right from wrong. Yet when I ask parents to remember back to a time when they were punished, few of them remember feeling badly about what they'd done and fewer still report a desire to make amends for their wrongdoing. Some of them couldn't even remember what they'd done! Often, people remember only their anger towards their punisher.*

When we punish kids we back them into the corner.* We don't give them space to feel badly for what they've done wrong.* If we want children to be responsible - we must give them the space and skills to be able to respond.

We want our children to view discipline as something to strive toward in their lives because it will help them achieve what they want.* Punishment used as discipline turns discipline into something children want to avoid at all costs.* Punishment teaches children avoid getting caught and can put children into danger.* It provokes rebellion and resentment or forces kids into retreat.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

That mast paragraph rings so true with me. I want my DD to have self-discipline. I want her to make the same decision she would make if I were standing over her shoulder when I am not there, KWIM?

Piglet - a solution to the crayons - keep them in a basket. Where it's easy for your child to dump the out and put them back without too much effort.


Awesome post, thanks for that!


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I'm intrigued by the idea of raising a child without punishment - but I wonder to what extent it's really possible, or even desirable, if you define punishment the way Dar did - simply as something you do after a behavior occurs in order to decrease the likelihood of that behavior happening again. That's the way scientists who study behavior define punishment, and it's the "real" definition of punishment in my mind.

I can see from this thread that most people don't define punishment that way. But I'm really interested in hearing from Dar and anyone else who does. When your kid does something you don't like (or something dangerous), do you really not ever respond in a way that's intended to decrease the likelihood that the kid will do that again?

I mean, let's say your kid runs out into a busy street without looking. Wouldn't you gasp, maybe call her name in a frightened way, and if she was old enough to understand, explain to her afterwards how dangerous that was? And wouldn't all that technically be punishment, since you could reasonably expect it to make her more likely to avoid running into the street again?

Or what about my little baby who had just gotten teeth and was trying them out on my nipple while nursing? I said "Ow!" (not very loudly), and it startled her a little, and after I'd done that a few times, she stopped using her teeth. According to my definition, that was a punishment, but I don't think it was mean or inappropriate, and it's hard to imagine any other possible solution in that situation.

Does it make a difference whether you're acting with deliberate intent to decrease a behavior or just reacting naturally (like saying "Ow!" when it hurts)?


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I disagree that logical consequence is a punishment (depending on how it is carried out).

For example, my dd likes to play with a cup in the bathtub. Sometimes she dumps water outside of the tub. We tell her to keep the water in the tub. We play with her and show her how to play with the cup while keeping the water in the tub. We try to distract her to play with another tub toy (but the cup is her favorite) She does it again. We tell her if she dumps the water outside the tub than we will take the cup away. She does it again, and we take the cup away. She generally accepts this easily. She doesn't cry or scream. I think she understands that *she* wasn't able to control herself from dumping water outside the tub, so we have to help her control herself. I don't see this as a punishment, but just a simple fact that dumping water outside the tub makes for a dangerous slippery situation when she gets out of the tub, and the water damages the floor of the bathroom. We can not allow her to damage the floor of the bathroom or create a slippery situation. She is only 2 and unable to set that limit and that boundry for herself, so we do it for her. When she gets out of the tub, we have her help clean up the water with a towel.

In the case of the crayons, (we have that problem too), or dd dumping something else out (she likes to dump things), we have her help clean them up. Then if she dumps them, again we have her clean them up again and take them away. (Otherwise she seems to make a game out of it, and usually in these types of games a few crayens gets stepped on or broken so we don't really want her doing that), Again, I don't see this a punishment, but simply as preventing her from doing something which she is unable to prevent herself from doing. I think we are teaching her boundries and limits. She is only 2, and has difficulty controling her impulses, so sometimes we have to do things which help her.

In parking lots, we have a rule, either hold hands or be held. So, if dd doens't want to hold hands, we pick her up and carry her. She knows that is the rule and accepts that sometimes she needs to be picked up and sometimes she is able to hold hands. It isn't a punishment if we carry her, simply that she is unable to safely hold her hands, and we need to insure her safety.

If we are at playgroup and DD pushes another child to get their toy, or is having difficulty sharing we simply remove her from the situation for a minute or two. I don't see that as punishement. It isn't a time-out, just taking her away from a situation where she is unable to share or interact in a positive manner. I should add that first we do try to help her share (why dont' we let A go down the slide, then you can go down) or (A is playing with this toy, I will help you wait and when he is done, you can play with it). However, if those methods don't work than we have to take her away from the situation. We can not allow her to push other children or grab their toys.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

In answer to your question (I hope) Daffodil, to me the idea of punishment is something arbitrary and unrelated to the action that preceded it. So if your child runs in the street and you say, "you'll have to eat dinner in your room by yourself tonight" then it doesn't connect the two events. If you say, "you'll need to hold mommy's hand whenever we are near the street" then you are reinforcing that there is danger near the street and there needs to be a boundary.

I guess that's what I see as the difference: to me, a logical or natural consequence is more of a "boundary setter" rather than a punishment.

The same is true of taking a child from the breast if she is biting - you are not saying, "ok, you bit me. From now on you can't play with your blocks" you are showing her that if she bites, she loses the breast for a moment while mommy recovers.

But another mommy really said it best about running into the street: the consequence was seeing the absolute terror in mommy's eyes. I think that sometimes our reaction to something can be the best boundary setter of all.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I also believe it's a matter of semantics. I punish my children from time to time but it's usually a consequence (natural or logical) more of, "You are fighting about the video game so I am turning off the TV".

The worst thing my kids ever did was one of my teenagers shop lifted. He had to pay restitution to the store but I also couldn't trust him to go to the store alone. I had a lot of heart to heart talks about what he did and those talks seemed to get through. Note: this was a one-time incident and I think the seriousness of it turned this one teen in the right direction because I have had no trouble with him. In a similar situation his grades weren't what they could be (him getting A's and B's and one 'C) I told him his grades would determine where he would go to college, that as a teenager he would be laying the foundation to the type of life he would live in the future. He pulled his act together and got on the high honor roll (he thinks he wants to be a doctor so he needs to get his act together)

With littles like Julianna sometimes I take her out of the situation but I can't think of the last time (or first time) she has been really punished.

Debra Baker


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luckylady*
Every time you need to discipline your child, ask yourself: "Is this discipline aimed at helping my child find a solution to the problem at hand?"* If your answer is no, it is not discipline, but punishment.

It's interesting that we use punishment because we want children to feel badly for what they've done - we want them to develop a conscience - we want to teach them right from wrong.

When we punish kids we back them into the corner.* We don't give them space to feel badly for what they've done wrong.* If we want children to be responsible - we must give them the space and skills to be able to respond.[/b]

I completely agree!

It seems to me that they gray area rears its ugly head mostly in matters of safety. The street scenario, for example: Say my son and I have spent literally hours of time going over the safe way to cross a street - hold my hand, look boths way before starting out, don't dawdle in the middle, etc. Then he disregards those safety procedures (even after a generous amount of reminders during that specific instance) so, in order to keep him safe, I have to pick him up. This feels like punishment to him - and it is, really, because it's only short-term solution oriented (as in, we get across the street safely that day) but it's not necessarily long-term solution oriented. Knowing my son, we will repeat the same scenario the next day. He tells me over and over that he'll do it right, he wants to try again. I think to myself that he has had about 50 opportunities to do it right - he knows what it takes to be responsible in crossing the street - yet still disregards the safety precautions. Now he's realized that he's going to have to be carried (a fate worse than death, apparently), so he's decided that he does want to be responsible. The thing is, I'm at a point where I feel that if I don't follow through and carry him, then I'm telling him that he can dawdle 50 times and disregard safety precautions until I finally decide to stop giving him chances and carry them - and then all he has do is promise to do it properly and I'll give him another chance.

We don't actually have this problem (with the street) - but we do experience this in other situations where safety (of one or the other of us) is a factor. It's in those times that I start to feel as though I just don't get the difference, whereas most times I really feel as though I have a handle on it and in comfortable in how I am approaching this whole parenting thing.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

One other thing: It seems that quite often phrasing and advanced notice can determine whether something is a logical consequence or a punishment.

In lab's waterpark example, if lab had simply blurted out to her kids as they were running around the house, "That's it! No waterpark tomorrow!" - I'd think that would definitely be a punishment. What makes it a logical consequence (or maybe a natural consequence... it's a little fuzzy there), is that she's told them beforehand that going to the waterpark is contingent upon them getting things straightened up and to bed at a decent hour so that she can get her work done. They know what they need to do to make the waterpark trip happen - it's in their power to make it happen or not make it happen.

Anyway, just ruminating out loud...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow, such a wonderful thread! Luckylady, thanks for that post: it was SO great!!

The crayon incident I reported was similar in nature to a "bathtub" incident I reported in another thread. I've already posted back to that thread, recognizing where *I* messed things up, and now I'm recognizing I did the same thing this time. Instead of getting up off my big preggo butt and going over to her to prevent her from dumping them, I sat there and expected (okay, probably "hoped" or "wishfully thought"!) that she could control her urge to dump them at my request not to. Obviously, I'm expecting too much of her, within the context of my own goals for discipline. And yes, I do always make a point of picking them up now and having her help me. I praise her and thank her when she helps me, hoping she'll think its a fun game. So anyways, I've learned something here: I took too big a step b/c I was suddenly feeling tired and lazy and hoping that she might be ready to take that step. But I can see now it wasn't right.

I do believe that it will be different as she gets older. I'd like to have the approach Dar does, but I feel that a child must be very verbal in order to participate in the problem solving, and DD just isn't there yet. I have been doing the redirection/distracting/hovering thing this whole time, and I suppose I wanted to think we were ready to move on. But I know in my heart that this approach is still the best, and we WILL be able to move on to discussions, etc. later when she is a bit older.

I'm really loving the philosophical nature of this thread re: punishment. Sorry to hijack with my crayon woes...back to the discussion at hand!


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

:

Great thread! I'm learning so much that I've had to copy parts of this into a word document to save for later.

Thanks, Everybody!!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

The whole gd thing has NEVER made sense to me. Until I started reading this thread! I've realized that we arne't as far off as I had thought.

Luckylady-- Your post was exactly what I needed to hear!!!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I only have a few minutes, but I want to touch on a few things....

The idea that if the "consequence" is related to the offense then it's not really punishment doesn't work for me - that would mean that if, say, my 11 year old makes a drippy mess in the bathroom while showering, she loses bathroom privileges for a week. Or showering privileges, even. It's related...

I do respond to events in ways that (I hope) decrease the likilhood of their reoccurrence - I just don't respond by doing things *to her*. I change my behaviors, the situation, I offer alternatives, talk, problem solve... when she was littler it was more work but less thinking - the issues get bigger at 11.

I loved luckylady's post...

Lab - it sounds like you're really caught up in a punishment/reward framework. The water park was to be a reward for cleaning up and all (I can't see your post anymore because it's a page back), but when the kids don't help you take it away, and punish them. What it the waterpark was a whole separate issue from the house or their behavior - what if you just took them because it sounded like a fun thing to do with your kids? If they're running hrough the house playing and yelling, it will be really hard to do a 180 and pick up and brush teeth and go to bed. I tend to either wait until kids transition to something more mellow or else create a more mellow activity, like a snack that requires sitting at the table, before asking for that kind of help. And to be honest, we don't get the house picked up every night.

Dar


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

If my 11YO makes a drippy mess taking a shower he cleans up after himself.

Logical consequence.

Not punishment but I *do* enforce my will.

GD, yes, TCS, no (oops I brought up the dirty 'T' word)

DB


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I only have a few minutes, but I want to touch on a few things....

The idea that if the "consequence" is related to the offense then it's not really punishment doesn't work for me - that would mean that if, say, my 11 year old makes a drippy mess in the bathroom while showering, she loses bathroom privileges for a week. Or showering privileges, even. It's related...

I do respond to events in ways that (I hope) decrease the likilhood of their reoccurrence - I just don't respond by doing things *to her*. I change my behaviors, the situation, I offer alternatives, talk, problem solve... when she was littler it was more work but less thinking - the issues get bigger at 11.

I loved luckylady's post...

Lab - it sounds like you're really caught up in a punishment/reward framework. The water park was to be a reward for cleaning up and all (I can't see your post anymore because it's a page back), but when the kids don't help you take it away, and punish them. What it the waterpark was a whole separate issue from the house or their behavior - what if you just took them because it sounded like a fun thing to do with your kids? If they're running hrough the house playing and yelling, it will be really hard to do a 180 and pick up and brush teeth and go to bed. I tend to either wait until kids transition to something more mellow or else create a more mellow activity, like a snack that requires sitting at the table, before asking for that kind of help. And to be honest, we don't get the house picked up every night.

Dar

Well see, the thing is, we go to the water park 3 times a week. It is a fun thing we do. So it really is a whole separate thing.

And the little stinkers weren't just running around with me expecting them to do a 180. We had just walked around the neighborhood. Then we came in and had a snack. While they ate, I explained what I needed them to do to get ready for the sitter the next morning (at 8:30 am! very early). They knew that in order for them to go to the water park, I needed house picked up and kids in bed. We really don't get the house picked up every night either, but with three kids home all day, they do need some reponsibility for straightening up. Anyway! I wanted to go to the waterpark. I meet 3 or 4 other moms there and we enjoy each others company while all of our kids play (aren't I a nice mom!). So I was really punishing myself. So I talked to the kids this morning, before I left, and explained that since bedtime was the problem, they would start earlier tonight. And that I would not punish them with the water park, since bedtime didn't have much to do with swimming (I love all you guys - helping me to be a better mom!







)

SO! I get home and the oldest has thrown gumballs at the babysitters face. Lied to the babysitter and basically acted like a jerk! I have to write this down as one of my proudest moments as a mom!

Am I completely stealing this thread or what!

I do have a point! How do you work on GD with kids who blatently ignore you. I like your idea Dar about getting out of the punishment/reward cycle. I just need to put something in place.

See Dar - I love your bathroom analogy. What would you do! I've got three kids in the bathroom with nobody taking responsibility for the mess. Do you talk about it ahead of time. When you do see something that needs correcting - how do you do it. For example - I placed folded clean clothes on my 10 yr olds bed 3 days ago. He has yet to put them in his drawer. I keep asking and asking. I guess I could just leave his room alone and let him deal with it, but really, I would be living in total chaos with three kids.

GRRRR! Stopping now. I'm completely off topic and rambling.....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

lab, don't apologize for hijacking...i'm as interested to hear solutions to your issues as you are, lol.

poor, Dar, spokesperson again, lol! but you do it so well...

here's my thinking, and I'm hoping Dar will either back me up or show me what else I can do...

if i treat my child with respect, no punishment, help her "do the right thing" while she is young and not-so-verbal...my hope is that when she IS verbal, she can participate.

I love the books that describe sitting down with the child and saying "we have a problem: the bathroom is always messy and it makes lots of work for me, is not nice for you to go into, etc...what can we do?" then make a list with the child of possible solutions (each person cleans up after themselves, one person is assigned to clean it per day or week, nobody uses the bathroom ever, etc). You write down any and all suggestions, no matter how whacky, then go over them with your child and figure out which ones you can live with...

I'm hoping that the non-punishment foundation is going to make this easier to do. But then I think of the gumball-in-the-babysitters-face incident (sorry, lab it's awful and funny at the same time!) and I think "how do you respond to that?".

(we need a smiley who sits here scribbling notes on a pad, lol.)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

The idea that if the "consequence" is related to the offense then it's not really punishment doesn't work for me - that would mean that if, say, my 11 year old makes a drippy mess in the bathroom while showering, she loses bathroom privileges for a week. Or showering privileges, even. It's related...
I don't have an 11yo yet, but I would definitely consider that scenario a punishment, and an unfair one at that.

If ds makes a drippy mess, we clean it up together. We talk about why it's not a good idea to make a mess. If he's using the scooper to make the mess, then if nothing else works, the scooper's got to go. I don't stop letting him take baths. The scooper is the problem, not him. So we remove the object.

I am always one for working for win/win situations, explaining, helping the child come up with solutions, etc. etc. But I keep remembering this one time when ds was about 2yo. We were getting back in the car from a shopping trip. He was holding the car keys because he likes to unlock the doors. It was scorching outside, and even hotter in the car. I get him in his carseat, and ask for the keys, which he usually hands right over. He just stares at me. I ask for the keys again. "No." I tell him that it's hot, we need to go, and I need the keys to start the car. "No." I try to hand him something else. No interest. I am pouring sweat, trying to negotiate, and finally I thought "You know, this is ridiculous. I am not going to sit here while we both suffocate in the heat while I negotiate with a 2yo to give me my keys back." While taking the keys from him, I said "I'm sorry, but I have to take the keys. Maybe you'd like this snack or this book, but I am going to start the car now." He squawked for a minute and got over it. Maybe that was unfair of me, using my strength as a bigger person to overpower him. But sometimes things have to get done, and it's my responsbility as the adult to make that call.

My dad made a remark to me one time that ds sure gets to make a lot of decisions around here, in kind of a snide tone. I told him that there are so many things that he doesn't get input on, that I like to give him input on anything I can. And I guess that's how I feel about GD. I try to make it a win/win, not a power struggle, as many times as I possibly can. But if every once in awhile I have to use my force to correct the situation, then hopefully that is balanced out by the fact that he has some control of the situation the other 90% of the time.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

lab, have you ever considered a job chart of some kind? It sounds to me that the issue you just discussed is more about everyone doing their chores than the previous issue (running around and not brushing teeth).


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I try to make it a win/win, not a power struggle, as many times as I possibly can. But if every once in awhile I have to use my force to correct the situation, then hopefully that is balanced out by the fact that he has some control of the situation the other 90% of the time.

This is what I'm hoping, too! There are a few times (safety related) when I've had to take something out of DD's hands. I hate doing it, and strive to make sure she can't get her hands on anything that she shouldn't...and I hope that the fact this occurs rarely gets overshadowed by all the good.

nicely put, oceanbaby!


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
lab, have you ever considered a job chart of some kind? It sounds to me that the issue you just discussed is more about everyone doing their chores than the previous issue (running around and not brushing teeth).


Lovebeads! I am ROTFLMAO! Oh MY GOSH!

I just got finished making CHARTS for everybody!

I love this place!

I was checking out other threads and saw the posts on a SAHM routine. Then I saw Chart LADY! CarrieBeary has it down!

Piglet I liked what you said about sitting with the kids and explaining that we have a problem, the bathroom is always messy....... I try this (and just like men, it works for a few days - JK Ha Ha!) and it works for a few days and then it's back to the same. SOOOOO.......... It's charts for us!

I went to the web page Carriebeary linked and it is awesome. I called each child down one at a time and let them design their chart and we talked about the chores.

Thanks so much for the help. Oceanbaby - now that my kids are older - because I talked things out when they were younger - they feel like it is ok to negotiate EVERYTHING with me. And I mean everything. You are right though, sometimes you have to use your common sense over the child. I tell my kids - I always have a reason. You don't always have to understand why, but mommy always has a reason. -

But as a child - I wanted to feel like I mattered. Nobody ever told me why, or explained anything to me. I personally feel like I have taken that to the extreme with my children. Probably to their detriment. But hey! Life is about a balance.

I'll keep you posted on the charts. What I'm getting is that I should substitute and redirect when possible. That is hard to do with larger issues. (You know, like walking back in the woods without telling mom where you are going!) And for those extreme times when it has to be my way - they'll live.

I feel better! How 'bout you guys?


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

lab, that is too funny! I think I got my inspiration from reading the chart lady's threads too! I haven't had to do them yet but I am definitely open to it.

Please let me know if they work, I really am curious!


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

Well shoot! I wish I had time to chime in. This is an excellent discussion. One of these comes up every few months and I always take time to check in... it's aways feels very empowering to freshen up my own parenting/discipline philosophy. Alas, DS is nearing bedtime and DH is pooped, mom must rejoin the workforce.

Admittedly, I haven't had time to read every single post but just wanted to give mention to DAR, the GD Goddess and Lucklady whose post was excellent! Thanks!









Hope I can check in/weigh in at a later time.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
When you do see something that needs correcting - how do you do it. For example - I placed folded clean clothes on my 10 yr olds bed 3 days ago. He has yet to put them in his drawer. I keep asking and asking. I guess I could just leave his room alone and let him deal with it, but really, I would be living in total chaos with three kids.

Piglet has a good point... it's much easier to do this when we've been doing it all along, rather than starting when you're kids are older. When she was little, at least by age 2, she was carrying bags of groceries in from the car with me when we wens hopping. In the beginning I had to do some surreptitious rearranging, to make sure the bag was light enough for her to carry.... but I never asked, I just said here and handed it to her, and she never refused - and so today at 11, when we get out of the car to go in she picks up as much stuff as she can carry before she goes in.

If the bathroom is wet I might ask if she could try to stay on the bathmat while she dries off... actually, we added a towel hook right next to the tub so that she could grab a towel and wrap at least her hair before even getting out, because it was dripping all over. If towels are left on the bathroom floor at our house one of our cats usually poops in them, which is annoying but it does ensure that towels are picked up. And I do feel comfortable asking Rain to sweep a floor or clean up a bathroom, and at this point she almost always agrees and does it. Sometimes she'll counter-offer, but the idea that she everyone helps is pretty engrained. She is pretty amazed (and not in a positive way) that so many kids she meets don't automatically do this. And this came out of not forcing her to help or punishing her for not helping, but expecting her to help.

That said, I am pretty sure she doesn't put away her laundry piles fairly often, and just leaves them on her dresser and gets the clothes she wants from there. Not my problem, IMO... her room is often chaos, but then she'll decideto clean it up if a friend is coming to spend the night or something. If it gets overwhelming for her we'll do it together. If I did see it as a problem we'd deal...

OTOH, I like the idea of a chore chart, for me anyway. Rain just made herself an Exercise Chart, so she can get and stay in shape this summer without regular ballet classes. Sometimes we play "Roll the Die of Chores", where we list 1-5 as chores and 6 as Break Time, and we roll and get stuff done... generally stuff that no one likes doing but needs to be done, like scrubbing the sink (which Rain actually does like to do).

Dar


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
Piglet has a good point... it's much easier to do this when we've been doing it all along, rather than starting when you're kids are older. When she was little, at least by age 2, she was carrying bags of groceries
Dar


UGH! I'm screwed then.

I started when they were younger. They've been carrying in groceries and doing helpful chores since they were old enough to walk. I haven't fed my own dog since ds10 was 18 months. That's it, I'm just plain screwed!

Maybe it's just that they are feeling summer carefree????

I'll keep ya posted on the chore chart. My younger two kids were looking for stuff to do so they could put checks on that dang chart!

How cool is that!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Dar, thanks for the positive feedback. DD does carry things at times when they are light, but I think I'll start making that more of a habit.

I'm actually amazed at how willing DD is to do things. I can't tell you how many times I've had situations like this: I'm sleeping in, DD comes wandering up to the bed with a peice of peanut butter toast in her hands. I tell her "DD, food goes on the table, not in the bed, can you take your toast out to the table"...

then I sit there laughing to myself thinking "yeah, like she's gonna do that"...

but she does! pretty much whatever I ask her to do she either does or does with me when I start doing it. I try to praise her strongly, make her feel good about it, I never push or argue when she doesn't.

So hey, instead of this being some "docile phase" (sometimes I think it just hasn't occurred to her to do otherwise, lol) maybe I'm setting up good habits for life! (i'll get back to you on that when she hits 3 years old, lol).

lab, I love your posts. you are too funny! can you link to the chart lady or the thread about it? thx.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

My kids are so different personality wise that I can see that one's perceptions about gd would be strongly colored by the personality of your child and also the age of your child.

My younger dd does have that innate desire to cooperate. My older absolutely does not. I had a lot of theories about gd before I had kids, but many of them just did not work with my older child (who is now almost 7). I also believed that you could enlist the child's cooperation, explain things, reason with them, etc. when they were young and have it continue. With my youngest, this works fine, but with my oldest, it is a non-starter.

Charting works to a small degree with the older child for some issues, but for others, she couldn't care less and just wants to do what she wants to do.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

forgive me I haven't read all the post. But as some one who feels correction and occaisionally punishments fit right in with GD I wanted to give my POV.

First of all I think GD is more about being proactive over reactive than what we doonce things go arry and a child needs correcting (don't get me wrong there is nothing gentle about screaming bloody murder or striking your child). My point is that I strive tobe gentle with my children by teaching good habiots and behaviors early on, setting firm reasonable boundries and being consistant in enforcing them. I try never to even reprimand my children for my lack of preperation or my laziness. There are times where thier inappropriate behavior is directly my fault for not being on the ball. More so when they are younger than older but for example, my 18 month old knows she is nt supposed to go outside but if I leave the door open I have no one to blame but my self (and yeah she really does know she isn't supposed to be out there, that is why she giggles and runs a way when she hears me coming :LOL little stinker)I know at such a tender age she lacks the self control to not go out so it ismy responsibilty to prevent it from happening until she has learned more self control. I also don't think saying no is bad. I think my hesitation to say no with my first is part of what has gotten us in so deep with her. My other two respond very quickly and unquestioningly when i say know. after they have responded they can ask politely but rarely do. they just accept at this point that I know what I am doing and wouldn't have told them no if it wasn't nessecary. I do often offere an explination but i am glad they will respond in an emergancy without standing out in the middle ofthe street waiting for an explination from me. So I am being long winded today. First, before the need for punishment ever arises I teach them as much as I can, condition them gently to respond to certain things, and teach tem manners, set bounfries and let them experiance natrual consequences before I start tweaking with logical consequences, time outs and more far reaching punishments.

I do use punshiments occaisionally . when behavior has gone on so long that I can no longer deal without the possibility of completely freaking out next time it happens. Madeline writes on stuff. all kinds of stuff. stuff she knows good and well, has know for years and years, that she isn't supposed to write on She sneaks pens (because we no longer can leave them around and she can no longer have one without asking permission and giving it back and using it in my presences - but good gravy she is almost 8 she she should have this rule down by now. my 4 year old has it.) but I sat her down and clearly explained that since she couldn't find the motivation withher to change I was going to motivate her to change by making her misreable evrytime she did this. as misreable as it makes me evrytime she does this. We still haven't decided what her punishment is going to be. It might involve a fine from her tooth fairy money, earlier bed times or spedning the next day in her room without a radio or toys and certainly no pens and paper







Oh, I know, she will clean the play room by herself. 2 birds with one stone. the walls covered with her writing (we didn't even get the paint on the walls. heck you can see places where the primer wasn't even dry yet.) will be a good reminder of why she is up there cleaning. But no amount of reasoning, talking or yammering on has worked with her (never has) so now we just skip that part.She is old enough now to just figure out why something is inappropriate at least. ALl offenses either ruin other peoples property, hurts thier feelings, cost them money, wastes thier time or makes you someone people don't want to be around. she gets those so I can just say "file it here"


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
\But no amount of reasoning, talking or yammering on has worked with her (never has) so now we just skip that part.She is old enough now to just figure out why something is inappropriate at least. ALl offenses either ruin other peoples property, hurts thier feelings, cost them money, wastes thier time or makes you someone people don't want to be around. she gets those so I can just say "file it here"

lilyka - You have *way* more experience as a mom than I do, so I'm probably "preaching to the choir" here. I'm just wondering if you've tried giving her responsibility for solving the problem. Rather than having her clean the playroom, maybe she's responsible for helping you to find the cleaner and the paint (to include looking up a paint store, finding the best price - as much as she can handle at 8... probably a good bit). Then, she moves everything out of the playroom by herself (help for heavy things, of course), puts the drop cloth down, scrubs the walls, primes and paints them. Then she puts everything back where it's supposed to go once the walls are dry. You can also work out a way for her to pay you back for the paint and cleaner.

I find that when I enlist my son in remedying the mess he's created - keeping in mind to give him as much responsibility in the process as he can possibly handle (I push him to his limits without going overboard) - it's immensely more effective in quelling an undesirable behavior than if I were to fabricate a punishment that doesn't relate to the problem. I try not to make it an adversarial, chastising, "Man, you really screwed up this time." More like a matter-of-fact, "Well, looks like there's a mess to be cleaned up. Let's get on that."

Like I said, probably preaching to the choir. Thought I'd throw it out there, just in case.

Did you read Barbara Coloroso's book, "Kids Are Worth It!"? I really love her philosophy and have found it to be very effective with my incredibly strong-willed child - figuring out how to channel his power for positive rather than allowing our relationship become a battle of wills. (That's not a commentary on your relationship with your dd, btw - it's a commentary on my relationship with my son.







)


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

LOL, Dragonfly, we must be reading the same books.

The same thought occurred to me when reading lilyka's post, that maybe involving the child in the *solution* might be a good approach. I think if the child feels that their opinion has merit, and that they got to be involved in deciding the "consequences", then maybe it would make them feel more part of the problem, instead of feeling like they ARE the problem...if that makes sense.

But then I figured, as you did, that lilyka has probably thought of that one already, too.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

It's nice to hear you say that, Piglet! Makes me feel like I'm on the right track with this whole GD thing! :LOL


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Dragonfly - that sounds good in theory but there are just not enough hours in the day. She enjoys chemicals, paints ando ther such messies. So I feel it would only encourage her to do it more. and if I insisted she do it right she would fall over wailing and whining. it gets old so fast. It is just better for everyone to have something swift and memorable and largely unpleasent to help it stick. I rmember writing on my desk at school. thenmy teacher would tell me to clean it off, which hey, had to be done before I could go on. there was no deterant there in cleaning it off. It didn't do anything to stop the behavior in the long run. nothing made me happier than a nice clean slate on which to write and that the teacher gave we the wonderful smelling cleaner was just frosting.

Also this is getting expensive with me ding the cleaning ina conservative way and takes up enough of my time with me doing it quickly. we aren't talking baout a few scribbles. It is floor to ceiling in the attic, on all the surfaces in the car, the window, from seqat, back seat, rugs, it is on my couch, an unfinished but stained armior, a chair, a dresser, every wall in every room in the house, almost all of her clothes. . . It is about more than fixing the writing she does. the behavior has got to stop. It doesn't do any good for me to make her pay for stuff brcause I find jobs for her to do and she whines and cries and withj the time it takes me to supervise and motivate I could get a real job and make some good money and let her write on someone elses walls for a while. Also it still is my money. I want her to stop wasting my money. we don't have any to spare. Like I said, she is 8. that is older enough to know better, to set aside selfish motivation and get over it already. It doesn't matter how bad she wants to write on the walls, she has appropriate places to write and that is where she has to do it. she is old enough to know that. And that is just one example (she also has issues with scissors. . . . )


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

I really like Dar's words about GD.

I don't know, I'll admit I'm feeling my way with the discipline thing. I believe that I practice GD in that I do not believe in spanking, shaming, or humiliating my child. I believe in trying to really get into his brain and see what I can do to *help* him help me when it comes to discipline. And I do believe that punishment-in the traditional sense of the word-does not work in the long-term (especially if scare tactics are involved). BUT, I do think that most "natural consequences" are sort of the GD verson of punishment, right? Like, if your DC colors on the wall with markers, instead of sending him to his room, you make him clean it up. This is a natural consequence of his action, right? And it is sort of his "punishment".

Perhaps I'm rambling, but these labels we give our parenting, our discpline, etc., seem to always be open for individual interpretation. Of course, if one says they practice GD and then they spank, well, that's not GD. But as parents we do have to interpret these things, these labels for ourselves.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

I have read all the posts and I have a question. To the person who said when their kiddo picks on the cat and you take him away to do something "fun"--like tear lettuce. How is that teaching that child not to pick on the cat?? Is not that a reward? "Hey, I can pull kitty's whiskers and then I get to go help MOM!"


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

That was me.

I don't think of it as a reward, more of a distraction - child can come and help tear lettuce any time there's lettuce to tear, she doesn't have to pull the cat's whiskers.

But then, I don't think behavioralistically, in terms of rewards or punishments, because I'm not into training kids. Rather than holding out certain things my child enjoys as "rewards", I try to find a way to make available to her regularly, if not at all times, and not contingent on behavior.

I don't think a toddler is truly capable of empathizing with the cat and understanding why poking his nose is not a good idea, so, while I tell her that he doesn't like it and try to explain how and why to be gentle, I don't expect her to stop doing it for a while. It's up to me to change the environment to protect the cat, until she's older. And I do this with complete faith that at 5 or 7 she will be treating the cat appropriately.

Dar


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Dar-I just had to add that we have a cat, too, and I feel exactly the same way. I think that this goes for a lot of behavior, too. Like the cat is an analogy for things. I try my best to explain, redirect, etc., in the hopes that in the future (whether that's tomorrow or when DS is 5) he will "GET IT".


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I think sometimes punishment and consequences can seem a lot alike.

Yesterday I sent my kids to the car while I grabbed my purse. I get to the car and my oldest (9) had hit marks on his face from his sister (6). His sister had a slap mark. (This is not normal behavior for my children.)

We were to go to a birthday party. The consequence was???????? They were not allowed to go to the birthday party. They had to stay with their grandma while their younger sister went.

My mil told my dh that I was kind of harsh on the punishment we both saw it as the consequence of their action. (I just felt like an @#$# for doing it).


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Marsupial...my kids are the same age and I would have done the same. "I'm sorry, your behavior has shown me that you are not ready/able to attend a birthday party today. We'll see if you can do better the next time something special comes." MAYBE MAYBE I would have taken the youngest and made the older ones cool their heels and think about their behavior (a "time out" if you will) for a bit and allowed them to come late.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Marsupial - that was hard to do wasn't it. We are dealing with some of those same issues.

The other day we were scheduled to go to the water park and ds10 acted very inappropriately with the sitter. I didn't keep everyone from going, instead I made him sit with me the entire 3 hours we were there. He had a book to read but boy was he ever miserable!

It was really hard on me though, I hated making him stay there and not letting him swim.......


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I've been reading this thread with intense interest....
Regarding the last 3 posts (involving older children and consequences)--I have *absolutely* no better consequences to offer, let me make that clear







--but I really, really want there to be another choice, kwim? Because the consequences just don't feel like they address the behavior to me. They just feel like punishment--an unpleasant consequence in response to the behavior (hopefully stopping the behavior), but not very closely related. I can see that they were closely related in time (misbehave--miss out on fun experience immediately following). But does the punishment make amends to the person they've harmed? Help the child make a better choice in the future?

I don't have the answers....only questions.....


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

As I said before, what you're calling "consequences" are just punishments that are related to the "crime".

It seems to me that a child who is punished because of the way they acted towards another person may very well end up feeling resentful and angry towards that other person, no matter whose "fault" is was (and interpersonal strife is rarely completely one person's fault). If your end goal is for these people to get along and treat each other respectfully, it does't seem that the punishment will help...

Dar


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

How does this"Help the child make a better choice in the future? "

Well, how about, I need to show I know how to treat others within my family before I can be trusted completely to treat non-family members respectfully." Or Plain and simple.."If Mom can't trust us to behave alone for 2 seconds in the car, how can she possibly trust us away from her longer--like at a party? Perhaps, I had better show her I know how to behave/treat others"


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## KingsDaughter76 (May 25, 2004)

This post is so interesting to me....so much good info!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
It seems to me that a child who is punished because of the way they acted towards another person may very well end up feeling resentful and angry towards that other person, no matter whose "fault" is was (and interpersonal strife is rarely completely one person's fault). If your end goal is for these people to get along and treat each other respectfully, it does't seem that the punishment will help...

Well, this is exactly what I was going to say, because I still remember my own experiences in that respect as a child, and I know that I will never punish my kids for that sort of situation in the way described, and here's why:

To an adult, the reasons kids squabble seems so trivial and silly. But to a kid, it's important. It's as big a conflict in their eyes as the "thing you have at work with that coworker who just doesn't respect you, blah blah blah" (for example)...and one of the things that used to drive me nuts is how my parents just TOTALLY DISMISSED the "story behind the fight", because to them it was sure to be about "nothing".

All they cared about is that we were yelling, or fighting, or annoying them in some other way (like our issues were not important, only that it was disturbing them!) and they wanted us to stop, so we got punished.

Yeah it made me furious. I was furious at my brother (since, IMO, he "started it") and he was furious at me for the same reason. And I felt even more frustrated and hurt b/c NOBODY SEEMED TO CARE how I had felt, and why things got to where they did, and nobody tried to help give us skills to prevent it the next time.

I would have so appreciated it if someone had taken the time to ask each of us our stories, told in our own ways, and helped us resolve things, rather than just slamming down on us because we were yelling or someone got hit (that was rare, btw, we never hit each other in anger).

I can still remember how that felt, and because of that I think the "punishment" of not being able to go to the party was really harsh. I'm not saying this so much as a mother criticizing another mother, but as that child who still remembers how rotten it felt, how unfair and how angry and resentful it made me. It didn't teach me any lessons: I'm betting your kids will fight again, as we did. You can see it's still a sore spot to me after all these years...

Okay, just a couple more things I wanted to say re: some other posts...the idea of "making your child clean up the crayons on the wall" sounds good in text...but how do you "MAKE" a child do something? If I were to say "DD, you drew on the walls now clean that UP!" she would probably say "no". So now I've started a battle that can ONLY END in me winning by brute strength or punishment (go to your room!) or "consequences" (we're not going to the park until you've cleaned this up!). When DD was young and drew on the walls, we just said "honey, walls are not for drawing but we can draw on paper". And you know what? After about 2 weeks of this she just stopped. We painted over the walls, and she's never written on them since.

So I don't think you have to assign some sort of punishement to an act, like pulling the cats whiskers, for the kid to eventually realize it isn't good. I'm assuming that when Dar sent her kid to tear lettuce she at least made a point of saying that pulling the cat's whiskers hurt the cat, etc. I think kids are smarter than we make them out to be. I don't buy this "how will they ever learn" stuff. They can't read...then they learn and they read. Starting before they are ready does no good. That's my analogy with discipline, too.

I'll shutup now.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
It was really hard on me though, I hated making him stay there and not letting him swim.......

I was thinking about this while I was drivng today... and thinking of how other parents do things like let their little ones cry it out, even though it's so hard on the parents to listen, because they think it's what they have to do to be a good parent.

There is this belief being a parent means doing things that feel awful when you do them, to both parent and child, but are good for the child in the long run.

The closest I can think of that I've done was Rain was 4ish and had awful constipation issues, and one thing I would do was basically coerce her into drinking a spoonful of mineral oil mixed with sugar... and it was really hard and awful but I thought it was the best way to help (this was after prunes, fruit, drinking lots of water, increasing fiber, metucil, enouraging her to poop in the tub... also after trips to the ER because she was cold and clammy and feverish from it, and lots of tummyaches and suffering. We eventually decided on small doses of mag citrate when she got constipated, which is a strong laxative but fairly tasty, and she did kind of outgrow it. This is all really beside the point, anyway).

If I had to do it over again, I may not have pushed the oil - I would have ha google, for one thing - but I know there are medical treatments that are very necessary yet hard on both parent and child. I guess that feels different to me, though, than a discipline method that feels awful when I'm doing it. I think that feeling is something that I would listen to and heed. If it feels wrong, my experience has been that it usually is wrong.

Dar


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Nankay, pretty much hit it. If I cannot trust my children to behave getting in the car how can I expect them to behave with soda, cake, gifts, and 10 other kids running around? They were well fed or tired, the argument boiled down to a 6 and 9 year old trying to be top dog.

This car argument got them both emotionally unready for the social rigors of some birthday parties. I did not see why I should punish the youngest for the older ones misdeeds. You misbehave you miss out. It is like not putting clothes in the dirty close pile, you end up having to miss out because you are doing laundry.

Dar, if this was a constant thing than I do agree seeing resentment building but it also boils down to know your children and family dynamics. They had plenty of time to realize that they misbehave, calm down, and realize how they got themselves left at grandma's. It is not like we didn't discuss or practice how they could of handle the situation next time.

"If it feels wrong, my experience has been that it usually is wrong." I will definitely agree with that statement. It USUALLY is wrong but not always. Honestly the easiest way for me to explain in what manner I felt bad/wrong about it is when my three year old fell and broke her tailbone. We had to get X-Rays, which required me to hold her down. She hated this, I hated this but we didn't know if she broke her hip or what, holding her down was a necessary evil. I felt bad (still feel some mother guilt) for doing it but no the less it was the right thing to do.

I do not like my children missing out on fun things but I will not punish all for one's wrong doing. I will not set them up for having missirable time or making others misirable.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Piglet-It was me who used the example of "making" your child clean up the wall. Perhaps "make" was the wrong choice of words. What I meant is that you can work to enlist your child's help in cleaning up the mess. Obviously, my 28 mos old can just walk away when I get a sponge and say, "Let's clean this up". But I think it's the example that I show that might make an impression. I've never resorted to brute strenth or "punishment" in the sense you describe. And yes, we've done exactly what you've mentioned about repeating that "walls are not for writing on", etc. But these have not been cure-alls for "discipline" issues in our home. Haven't found that thing yet.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I can still remember how that felt, and because of that I think the "punishment" of not being able to go to the party was really harsh. I'm not saying this so much as a mother criticizing another mother, but as that child who still remembers how rotten it felt, how unfair and how angry and resentful it made me.

Okay, just a couple more things I wanted to say re: some other posts...the idea of "making your child clean up the crayons on the wall" sounds good in text...but how do you "MAKE" a child do something?

Piglet, I strongly relate to your feelings of resentment re: punishments that seemed unfair when you were a child. I don't want dd to feel that way--I want her to feel *heard! But I'm not sure I will know what *to do* when these situations arise......

I think a lot of the solution may just be in wording and a willingness to listen. Listen to dd's perspective, empathize with her pov, but then--if she is still clearly not emotionally prepared to go to the party, and if going is truly setting her up for failure--keeping her home from the party with an explanation of why (not because you misbehaved, but because I don't feel you are emotionally prepared for the party right now.....maybe we can take a quiet break together and go a little bit late). Of course, I only have one child....and this issue becomes exponentially more complex when there is another child's pov to be considered....

As far as enlisting dd's help when she has made a mess, I have (again) found wording to be important. I get the supplies for her and supplies for me, and then I state what we "need" to do. "We need to clean up this mess before we can get more toys out..." When she says "you can do it." (and she does







), then I appeal to her innate sense of fairness. I say "it wouldn't be fair for me to do it myself. I didn't make the mess myself." All kids are different, but this is what works for my kid. She doesn't tend to respond postively to demands or playful requests, but logical explanations of what needs to be done and what is fair just "click" with her. When she occasionally still refuses, I just do it myself and let it drop. Most of the time she cooperates, and the rest of the time she at least got my message about fairness. Fairness goes both ways, after all.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Thanks for all the clarifications.

I agree that there are times when a child is just not in the right emotional state for a certain situation. I would not take my child on a playdate for example, if I could tell she was steps away from a meltdown. I'm not sure how I would convey that to a fully verbal child, but I can see that this can be a completely different situation than a "punishment". I guess I would work with the child to try and help them "regroup" emotionally so that we could still do X, maybe a bit late....

Also, the cleaning thing. I do model cleaning with DD. For example, we're working on picking up crayons. I ask her to help me. Sometimes she does and I praise her alot. Sometimes she doesn't and I let it slide. Lately I've been making comments sort of along the lines of "gee, mama doesn't enjoy picking up crayons all alone"...something that conveys that I'd prefer her to help, but something that doesn't convey guilt or ill-will. This is still an "experiment in progress"...


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## tea olive (Apr 15, 2002)

hey mammas. i'm enjoying the thread. i've recently become more okay with how things are going in my home. which is much chaos. i have tried and done most everything. and there are some basics that i have learned to rely on.
one is i must have the skills i want my children to have in order to teach them. (this is taken from becky bailey's easy to love, difficult to discipline which i recommend heartily). this requires much worthwhile work on my part!

another is that my children feeling loved is more important than my control on small issues. i'm a firm believer in natural consequences and outside influences. most of my attempts to manipulate my children merely distort my relationship with them.

i work to know my children as well as i can and know their motivations and know what is age appropriate. i believe people are doing the best that they can, and i cannot actually change people, i can only change myself and go from there. this means sometimes situations go awry and oh well. i probably won't remember next month or next year.

gotta run.....


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Lilyka, are you still here?

I was reading your post and once again I was struck by how much your DD reminds me of myself when I was her age re: writing on stuff. I have almost PMed you several times about it. I used to like the way the pen/pencil felt on wood so I wrote on closet doors, furniture, window frames, etc. I also used to like peeling the wallpaper off my walls. My g-parents repapered my room when I was about 7 or 8 (why they didn't just paint it I have no idea) and strictly warned me to leave it alone - of course I didn't, I _couldn't_. My grandmother was so pissed off!

I did outgrow it, though. You have probably thought of this already, but have you considered allowing her to write on the walls of one room in the house, or buying some junk furniture from Salvation Army and putting it in her room and letting her trash it? This may save your stuff while giving her the outlet she needs. It seems to me, and based on my own experience, that she has some kind of compulsion in this area and it might be best just to allow her to indulge it within limits rather than try to suppress it altogether. Like I said, I just outgrew it and maybe your DD will do the same. I hope so.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Does she just like pens or will she use chalk? They make paint that you can write on and erase like it's a chalkboard.


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

Gosh, I have not been back here in forever - and my parenting has suffered because of it. I've had an intensely busy spring, crazy, stressful, hectic, etc, and I've just gotten offtrack with this GD thing.

My philosphy has not changed, but I'm certianly not parenting in a way most of the time that is in line with what I believe. I actually feel much stronger about it now - because I know from my own experience how poorly the whole reward/punishment/threat/bribe scenario actually works.

I cringe to hear some of the things that come out of my mouth lately. I used to call my version of GD conscious parenting, and what I've been doing for the past few months is most certianly unconscious/reactive/shooting from the hip parenting. It does not feel good to me, or to Bella - and I want to stop it NOW.

This thread has been a good check-in for me - and I'm intrigued with so many parts of the discussion. I think my main problem is I know clearly what I DON'T want to do - but I'm not at all sure what I SHOULD or COULD do in many situations, so I stick with my first, instinctive (usually negative) reaction. UGH. Not proud of myself. (Note, there has been no physical punishment, etc and most people who see me talking with Bella out and about would think I was really GD....but I know all the thousand tiny moments of the day when I'm just not, and I'm hard on myself about those).

Here is a common scenario that leads to power struggles. Bella likes to be out walking around instead of in her stroller when we are out and about - totally normal for an almost three year old. However, also totally normal for an almost three year old, she's awfully prone to wandering off, running around corners, dawdling behind, banging into people etc. I understand that she can't be expected to always remember the rules when her surroundings are so novel and her brain is trying to send her body to a million different places at once. However - she also simply can't just wander off, run where I can't see her, hide somewhere in the mall, etc (it has near given me a heart attack more than once to turn a corner and have her dissappear).

We go over the rules each time she asks to get down from my arms/out of the stroller or cart.
1. Listen to mommy
2. Stay close (which she knows means where she can see me)

If she runs off once I review the expectations and let her know that next time she'll have to go into the cart (if we're in a place where I can keep a closer eye on her she gets more leeway, but if we are somewhere - say grocery shopping - where I have things to accomplish and can't focus all my attention on her, I'm not as flexible.

Next time she's off she goes into the cart/stroller - and nine times out of ten it is a HUGE battle, kicking, screaming and me sweating and feeling self conscious. We usually just stay where we are and I try to calm her down using the coping skills she has learned, sometimes that works, but other times she really does end up getting forced into the cart. I feel like crap every time - but don't feel like I have any other tricks in my tool box to help me.

Anyway, I've gone on and on. I'd love some suggestions for this sort of scenario that are not punishment, but still reflect my need to keep my daughter in my eyesight, safe and at least somewhat close to me while out in public.

Thanks ladies

PS: Dar and Piglet - as always, you are both such inspirations to me, thanks to both of you for being so commmited to your children and to this path.


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## tea olive (Apr 15, 2002)

i forgot what else i wanted to say. but ended up thinking about your madeline, lilyka. now here's the disclaimer: i'm only a somewhat expert on my own family. and i always love your posts, because they convey the emotion i feel but can't write.

so, i'm wondering why you are fed up with her writing now since you have lived with it for so long. has it increased, or is it that she is eight now, or what else? my first bizarre not necessarily great idea is to have someone else, not you or your partner, put an idea in her head like "i remember when i was a kid there was a girl that wrote all over everything like you do and she....." you fill in the blank here. nothing scary, and possibly something unrelated, or very related. how about "decided to make invisible art". (that sounds so silly but i'm not going to write the other wacky thoughts i had there) my kids seem to learn to quit doing annoying things in an instant especially when a peer points it out. this seems underhanded but it seems that making a punishment for her is going to take just as much work as redirecting her to clean. and will be frustrating for the all of you. since you mention there is writing everywhere i'm thinking it would take another level of vigilance to notice new infractions. perhaps you can both agree with a schedule of reducing it, like starting with no writing outside the house, then next month, no writing on the flat surfaces like tables, then next month, none on the walls. (though that would not work for me....) me, i would probably make her wear the clothes she had ruined and be okay with other people saying things to her about it. and making her pay for other destruction since i think she is old enough to understand or arrange for her to do a task for someone else that earns a little money to help pay.

at some point something will help curtail her behaviour. though things take longer without the village concept. and she will channel the energy into other projects. so i'm wondering if you can live with it another year or so and let go of it. it just sounds so much like what she is doing is a part of who she is. and it may sound crazy to you but this behaviour sounds lovely to me. my eldest is active and not as aware of his body and very self centered so i have a lot of actual destruction like broken furniture and stepping on people's faces and such. i would welcome the grafitti (and i'm sure i'll get it now that i've said it......with my littlest one, since she shows the promise of fine motor skills)

can it be redirected or confined to just one wall, or behind a closet door? i'm sure you have many notebooks for her already. i remember my mom newspapering the wall for this reason though it was not as compulsive for me. i guess one of my first thoughts of your description of her behaviour was imagining a movie about her, as an adult as a loved artist that hangs secret messages in different public places that bring ephemeral joy to the public. and she says, i remember writing everywhere i could as long as i remember.....
there, i showed my woo-woo side....

regardless of all this i do think she should could be cleaning and repainting as a habit, it could be a family project for 30 minutes once a week, and i don't think it would be a punishment for anyone, it is just part of making your house pleasant and it would certainly aggravate you less to see it everywhere since you make no mention of her being attached to what she has created. maybe you will have to get another adult to get that started so that it is a fun thing.
i happen to be putting sheetrock mud on walls this weekend; i wish i could get her over to help and she'd see what work it entails. and she'd probably love it. my kids do.
and obviously her fine motor skills are excellent. if i had a teleportation machine i could come over and show her crochet, knitting, embroidery, origami, lanyard, macrame, etc, things that are heavy in hand involvement that are portable and less defacing....she may also love to weed and garden. and of course it sounds like time for her to pick up a musical instrument as well. i know i became much less destructive when i could "play piano" anywhere just by tapping my fingers and hearing the music in my head. i remember doing it around nine years old.

i just know that for me, it just becomes an invasion of my relationship with my kids when i have to nag at an everpresent compulsive issue (and then it attaches itself to our relationships) and it wastes my energy. i'm better off with prevention, living with it, and sometimes odd and extreme measures. and i learn from doing instead of foaming at the mouth, since i have no teacher except my kids and dh and myself. and it works out fine when i follow my heart, knowing i can change my mind.

forgive me for the rambling tangent mammas


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JeanetteL*
Anyway, I've gone on and on. I'd love some suggestions for this sort of scenario that are not punishment, but still reflect my need to keep my daughter in my eyesight, safe and at least somewhat close to me while out in public.

It will pass....?

Seriously, when Rain was around 2 1/2 and we were in a public place, pretty much all I did was keep track of her. Trips to grocery stores and Target required constant interaction, "Hmm, what do we need next? How about... juice! The sign says this is the juice aisle, do you see juice anywhere? Juuuuuice! Where aaaare you? Oh, you found it! Do you want grape or apple?" and so on. Meanwhile I'd be quickly grabbing stuff and putting it in the cart. It was not a leisurely shopping trip, and I didn't do much shopping, it was more grab-and-buy. In the check-out line, we'd open the baby carrots and make fake noses with them, or fake fingers. Then I'd go home and collapse...

I did have a favorite kid-friendly cafe, with one door and a little kids' play area, and I could relax and drink coffee and know she was safe in the store and couldn't escape without passing by me. That helped.

I also used to think ahead of time about what kinds of things I wanted to be saying, and practice certain "lines". That seemed to make it easier to find them during times of of stress.

Dar


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JeanetteL*
I think my main problem is I know clearly what I DON'T want to do - but I'm not at all sure what I SHOULD or COULD do in many situations, so I stick with my first, instinctive (usually negative) reaction. UGH.

Hey, Jeanette, good to see you here again!

I can truly relate to what you are saying here. I have these moments occaisonally myself, which is why this forum is such a godsend to me. I wrote earlier about my issue with DD dumping water out of the tub. I had resolved to stick by her and play with her watching closely to prevent it from happening.

And yet, even so, last night I slipped. I was so exhausted and she hadn't made one move to dumping the water, so I was playing along rather relaxed about it and then WHAM, like out of the blue she does this, and I bring my arm up to stop her, and ended up basically getting a tupperware container of water dumped on my head! Now, even writing this I want to laugh, but at the time my gut reaction was...ANGER. I was so mad, I felt like I'd been hit in the face. I took the scooper, which of course really upset her. I tried explaining again that she isn't to do that (and all the while in my head is this forum and my description of how this SO didn't work for us...and yet there I was DOING IT AGAIN). It was bizarre, like I almost couldn't stop myself. I ended bath time and she cried the whole way to bed, where she nursed to sleep in five seconds. I felt so bad. I even apologized to her while she was nursing (not that she really understood that, but it made me feel better).

And it's funny b/c to so many people I'm as laid back as it comes. I have never even yelled at my DD, let alone hit her. But I took this situation really badly. My DH was trying to comfort me, saying "look at what you consider a bad mommy moment compared to other people". But since hitting and yelling aren't issues for me, it isn't easy to say "yay for me for not hitting and yelling", kwim?

Anyways, I just wanted to commiserate with you on how we know what NOT to do, but often not what TO do, and those old reactions come into play.

I lay in bed asking myself why the hell it's such a big deal if she dumps water? We're on the ground floor and it's not like it's enough to leak through anyways. It is just messy, but hell....considering how long it's been since I've mopped the floor, she's probably doing me a favour. So I need to keep working through this, asking myself why this particular behaviour is bothering me and why I suddenly felt the need to make this a power struggle (which I normally try to avoid at all costs). I hate to say this, but I think I hear that voice in my head "if she doesn't put a stop to this now...."...UGH! I hate that voice! I don't believe in that attitude! Go away, twisted notions from my childhood!









Okay, back on topic...

Would it be possible to use a leash thingy with your DD? I used my Maya Wrap sling as a leash when we were travelling and had a stopover at a busy airport. She had energy to burn up, and I wanted her to, but a busy airport was not the place to chase a toddler with a big suitcase behind me. The sling worked great as a "leash" and she got to toddle to her heart's content!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Dar-Just had to say that I SO relate to your words about your then 2.5 yo. DS is a very spirited boy and every excursion is like you described. It is a logistical and emotional feat to keep him with me in stores. For some reason, Target pushes a lot of his buttons. So, I'vev decided that we just won't go to Target anymore together or I'll go by myself when daddy is home.

So, yes, it is a constant stream of conciousness kind of thing trying to "talk" DS through certain stores, outings, etc. Very difficult.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

I lay in bed asking myself why the hell it's such a big deal if she dumps water?

I love that! LOL..That's how I parent...if I can't find the apparent harm to themselves or others..what's the big deal? My DH doesn't agree. If my kids want to build a fort out of couch cushions I say "Great!" he says "NO..those are for sitting on the couch not playing with!" Grrr...who the F%$# cares? If they want to hop through the house like naked bunnies it's ok with me, but again, DH...."This isn't the playground and put some clothes on" SIGH


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Piglet-It is really hard to override those voices in your head that just keep on going even when you know what you're doing/saying is wrong. Even if it happens only 1x/month-I think we all have some things that are weird triggers for us. I've learned mine. Sleep chaos is one of them, for example.

So, even if we're laid back, seemingly mild-manner mamas, I think we all have some voice, whether it's our parents' voices or just the voice of anger that keeps going despite us really WANTING to stop it. And my DH would say the same thing about me. My breaking points are not every day occurences, not even weekly occurences. But I have them.


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## tea olive (Apr 15, 2002)

not long ago i watched a friend of mine, a loving ap mother and elegant lady, lose her patience with her daughter. it was a magnificent sight and i realized i have reached a different point with the negative emotions to where i can appreciate them. they are wondrous things and remarkable teaching tools for ourselves . the shame we feel, we can use that constructively for next time. the level of comfort we feel to be ourselves, the raw naked beasts we are around our children, this is what happens when we surrender control which i feel is ultimately a part of the way i parent. and it is the ultimate compliment people and children give to those that they love. this real life is a delightful changing rich experience, nothing like the movies and media and stilted antidepressant culture we are used to seeing. it will benefit our children to know that we are human after all. we grow closer from working those situations out. this is how we find the way we can be truly civilized.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

casina-I LOVED your last post. I remember someone saying to me once when I was first struggling with the REAL stuff that came out of me when DS started heading into discipline territory. She said, "Do you want to be a PERFECT mom or a REAL mom???". She also went on to illustrate how wacky and weird it is to grow up with fakeness/passive-aggression. You know, the moms who smile while wanting to throw something through a window!! SO, I've accepted (not fully, I guess, but I'm working on it), that I'm a REAL mom. When I lose it, I apologize, when I'm angry, I say, "I'm angry", etc. I'm trying to be as honest as possible with myself and my DS on this journey of motherhood. A little OT, I know, but your words, Casina, rang very TRUE to me. Thank you...


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## tea olive (Apr 15, 2002)

you are welcome! i'm learning to live my own durned words. if you meet my family in person, i warn you it is not a pretty picture!

as for the water type incident, sometimes i'm better off pretending i didn't see it when it happenned. i have to still my body and look lost in thought or look the other way. or i'll react badly, when in the end i still have to clean it up. if i find an icky mess later, i just do it and the "disciplinary' responsibility is different. though water is a big deal over here for my dh. he has a badly hurt back from slipping on a wet floor at work, and we lost our home, a trailer in the woods three years ago to flooding. so we've got some water issues nonetheless. but it's better than most any other liquid.

much love,
casina


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:

We go over the rules each time she asks to get down from my arms/out of the stroller or cart.
1. Listen to mommy
2. Stay close (which she knows means where she can see me)
My dd is hearing impared and has a speech delay. At almost 3, it would have been nearly impossible for her to understand/follow directions. Now, at almost 4 and with a year of hearing aids under her belt, I can communicate with her more easily.

I don't know if this would help you, but I've found that the phrase, "Listen to mommy," at least for us, is highly ineffective. I don't think it's a clear direction. They can listen and NOT follow directions just as easily, kwim? Instead of saying, "Listen" to you, I would define it clearer:

"When you hear mommy calling your name, I need to to look at me."
"Whem mommy calls your name, I need you to freeze like a popsicle."

And so on. Listening is only half the battle--the other half is her understanding and following directions.

The "Stay close" rule is reasonable but still kind of hard to define. What if she had to hold onto the cart or hold your hand? What if she could walk away from you until you called her name, then she would stop and wait?

To tell you the truth, that age was just plain difficult for public outings. It gets easier with time and more reasoning on the child's part. I would stick to your guns, and follow through with your words.

She'll get it.

Jesse


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## JeanetteL (Feb 28, 2002)

Jesse,
See - that is why I love this place! You are SO right - my "rules" are very ambiguous - aren't they (at least to a three year old.) I've got to do some thinking about the alternatives you suggested and see if I can figure out something that works for us.

Thanks for giving me one of those lightbulb moments!

Jeanette


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## tea olive (Apr 15, 2002)

lilyka, i want to be clear, if i wasn't before, that it is only with love that i wrote anything about your daughter. i don't know your family and i feel i may have been out of line, since you did not specifically ask for ideas. of course you know her best.







:


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JeanetteL*
Jesse,
See - that is why I love this place! You are SO right - my "rules" are very ambiguous - aren't they (at least to a three year old.) I've got to do some thinking about the alternatives you suggested and see if I can figure out something that works for us.

Thanks for giving me one of those lightbulb moments!

Jeanette











So glad it helped!

Jesse


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

Great discussion!

Being a real mom is so important. My dd and I have some really good exchanges about emotions and how to express and release them. When I raise my voice I apologize and explain. Sometimes, when I feel she might be in a receptive mood, I even tell her, "It's just that you're really pushing it, you know?" And she'll say, "I know." Mostly, though, I recognize that I'm raising my voice because I'm tired or anxious or irritated, and I make sure she knows that she is not the source of my negative emotions. Dialogue is so important.

Piglet - I have water issues, too. Mostly with dh, though, who walks around with wet hands! I think it comes from early, perhaps unconcious memories:My dad spanked me with a shower brush for splashing water on the bathroom floor. When my dd splashes a bit, I can feel myself tense up, but I am somehow able to ride that out. I do point it out, but calmly, "Look how the water is dripping down the side of the tub. We'll have to wipe that down when you're done, OK?" That's usually enough for me, just voicing and sharing my anxiety in a calm voice.


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

I havent read the other comments so sorry if Im repeating I believe in resonable natural conquences. So say my toddler abuses one of her toys then she gets the toy taken away for a period of time. She throws food at the table the food is removed. ect.. Too me even a timout can fit into gentle discipline if used as a way for child and parent to regroup. I however see no way physical punishments such as spankings come into play with GD.

Deanna


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Hmm.

Well, those of you that know me from these boards will know that I am against the "D" in "GD".

I just go with the "G"!

All too often I see or hear "reasoning" that turns D into P (unishment).

There is NO punishment in our house (and it is a mess, and I love it!).

But I have started to lurk here after a break. So you'll be hearing from me again!

a


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

alexander, how nice to see you again!


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

a


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Bumping to mark to read and to say we're talking about this on a Vocabulary thread in GD.

Long thread, reading...


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