# Another Reason to be fearful of a Trump presidency: he is extremely procircumcision



## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

"Uncircumcised men are un-American and smell bad."

"I give an afternoon off with pay to any of my employees who want to go and get de-flapped&#8230;that's what young kids call it these day."

https://thelapine.ca/trump-says-uncircumcised-men-are-un-american-and-smell-bad/


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## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

That isn't a good source. There's no evidence that he said this. I may not like the guy, but this is just silly.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

So is this a spoof?


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Yes, this is satire. Sorry everyone. But now I wonder if he has an opinion on circumcision. If he is cut, he doesn't seem like the type that would ever admit there was something wrong with it, or at worst would be very very pro circ in defensive of his "manhood".


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## Hunter (Aug 3, 2006)

Trump's slavish attention to the Israeli lobby and Jewish interests, along with the birth of his grandson

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-trump-jewish-circumcision-ceremony/82427428/

indicates that he's extremely pro circumcision as indicated.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Hunter said:


> Trump's slavish attention to the Israeli lobby and Jewish interests, along with the birth of his grandson
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-trump-jewish-circumcision-ceremony/82427428/
> 
> indicates that he's extremely pro circumcision as indicated.


Well not necessarily. I have a two friends who are Jewish men who are STRONGLY anti-circumcision and yet still very much involved in their cultural, and OTHER traditions. I have only talked to one about "if you have a son..." question and his response was more or less "Look, if i had a daughter in modern times its become normal (and expected) to give her a naming ceremony, which flies in the face of tradition in the Jewish community. So if I had a son I would have no problem going against another tradition, especially when his body is at stake."

Judaism is a very complex culture, and its not as cut and dry as this. The fact that Trump is an American man born at the HIGHT of the circumcision craze in this country is far more telling of his perspectives on circumcision. That and its obvious his ego would never allow him to admit his own circumcision did him any harm.


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## Hunter (Aug 3, 2006)

perspective said:


> Well not necessarily. I have a two friends who are Jewish men who are STRONGLY anti-circumcision and yet still very much involved in their cultural, and OTHER traditions.


I think you have liberal friends 

By which I mean, you have liberal friends who represent a very small minority of the religion best associated with infant circumcision. I'm not saying people don't think for themselves, but pandering to the religion is very much an indication for one of any age on how they feel about children's rights.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Hunter said:


> I think you have liberal friends
> 
> By which I mean, you have liberal friends who represent a very small minority of the religion best associated with infant circumcision. I'm not saying people don't think for themselves, but pandering to the religion is very much an indication for one of any age on how they feel about children's rights.


Judaism and the people who practice it are far more complex than you give them credit to be. But my POINT was that none of that really matters as if you are looking for indicators on Trumps stance on circumcision, you have to look no farther than the time period and country he was born in.


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## Hunter (Aug 3, 2006)

Is your family Jewish? The matter is quite simple to me. No rationalizations or "complexity" matter. It's condescending of you to suggest that my great ignorance of Judaism shelters my mind from some deeper understanding of how Jews tear apart infant penises and the great contemplations that led them there.

Here's a shocker, reform Jews circumcise their boys in secular facilities. Maybe the complexity is in why that matters.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Hunter said:


> Is your family Jewish? The matter is quite simple to me. No rationalizations or "complexity" matter. It's condescending of you to suggest that my great ignorance of Judaism shelters my mind from some deeper understanding of how Jews tear apart infant penises and the great contemplations that led them there.
> 
> Here's a shocker, reform Jews circumcise their boys in secular facilities. Maybe the complexity is in why that matters.


As they say in that episode of that sitcom "Community" when Chevy Chase's character (a friendly but slightly racist character says "jew" the response is "use the full word"- Jewish.

My family is Catholic, but I grew up around a lot of Jewish families (and Catholic, and Protestants for that matter). Not really religious myself. But Jewish people have a very diverse set of beliefs, and I know this because thats been my experience being around Jewish communities. They certainly hold a united front when they need to, but there is CERTAINLY debate and discussion going on internally- just as there is in America.

I responded to you like I did, because I have to admit your response seemed overly forcibly focused on Trumps connections to the Jewish community, if him being American wasn't far more proof in itself. So it just seems odd, like you WANT to mark that as the negative element.

I don't know your intent, I don't know your experience with Jewish people, and I am sorry if I presumed anything. But the reality as we fight this fight for genital integrity we are dealing with a lot of complex issues of identity as well. We want to create our own label for this movement and not have one placed on us. Needlessly bringing up connections to Judaism just so you can point it out is a great way to gain the anti- semitic label placed on what is actually a human rights issue. We banned female circumcision without getting the anti islamic label, but that was through careful work.

But the truth of the matter in my experience is this- although its true that Jewish people use circumcision as a whole as a form of identity, I have seen far more Jewish people contribute to meaningful conversations on the topic then most other Americans who circumcise. The Jewish people view circumcision as a sacrifice, in a way they at the very least admit value in what the forcibly mutilate. While most Americans use their culture to devalue the very male bodily identity- they mark it as worthless, then they mutilate and THEN make money off that "worthless" foreskin in face creams.

As a man who was circumcised against my will, one of the worst parts is having your community, your family tell you indirectly through action that YOUR body does not have a value to them, to admit how you feel gets a response that YOU are the crazy one. The first time I felt sympathy and support for how I felt was from a Jewish person. "of course it has value! If it didn't have value, why would we sacrifice it to God!!"

I highly disagree with ANY culture that forcibly mutilates the bodies of children. No cutting culture is better or worse, and we shouldn't respond like it is. But for people who actually have been mutilated, having a culture or individual confirm the value you see in yourself is HUGE. Maybe thats something you just cant understand because you are whole.


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## Hunter (Aug 3, 2006)

Sorry, were you telling me not to say "Jew?" How do you refer to an individual, "a Jewish?"

I have absolutely no patience for religious circumcision arguments, and it flies in the face of reality to suggest that an appeal to Judaism and the Jewish/Israeli lobby, which unfortunately is involved, as the stereotype says, in medicine, the media ("Hollywood") and politics which portray the issue of circumcision in a way complimentary to their worldview, is not a vote on the issue of genital mutilation. It's not something that has to be confirmed, it's something to disavow; it's not opt in, it's opt out.

Trump has made himself clear to me. Now Sanders for instance is a Jew (you'll have to take my word that this is not anti Semitic, lol) and although my immediate reaction is distaste if not disgust, he either hasn't voted on circumcision or been educated thus to have a stance other than the default stance of U.S. politicians.

I think you're an apologist. I wasn't speaking of Jewish individuals.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Hunter said:


> Now Sanders for instance is a Jew and although my immediate reaction is distaste if not disgust,


Its sentences like this coming from you that makes me think your opinion here is more based on hate. The fact you FEEL distaste or disgust when you find out someones religious background, thats a perfect example of what hate is.

If this was not based on hate, but based on your anger over people who modify children genitals then you would either 1. Feel that way only with people who support cutting babys or have cut babies themselves. 2. Feel the same level of disgust when you find out anyone is an American, or a filipino, etc.

The world is not black and white. Just as you can accept Americans into your lives without hate and anger because you know they have varying opinion, you should be the same way with any individual.

Also as a woman it may be easier for you to accept Americans because you yourself haven't been mutilated. But for males like me, we can't. We can see the devaluing of our bodily integrity take place throughout our childhoods. And it was in the Jewish community where I as an American boy was first told I had a WHOLE body that deserves full value and not parts of it that are seen as so "worthless" that it could be cut off and thrown in a trash can. Which is what most Americans indirectly told me as a boy.

My point is there is value and complexity to be found in every community. Even in the Jewish community, even in American culture- even when both are guilty of victimizing, mutilating, and dehumanizing boys for most of their histories.


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## Hunter (Aug 3, 2006)

perspective said:


> The fact you FEEL distaste or disgust when you find out someones religious background, thats a perfect example of what hate is.
> 
> If this was not based on hate, but based on your anger over people who modify children genitals then you would either 1. Feel that way only with people who support cutting babys or have cut babies themselves. 2. Feel the same level of disgust when you find out anyone is an American, or a filipino, etc.


Inasmuch as circumcision is a precious thing for Judaism, with which it is strongly associated, your apparent lack of concern is one reason the status quo is in place. Let me decide to what my anger or hatred may apply. Oh, believe me, I don't have warm rosy thoughts when I come across U.S. citizens or Filipinos and so on - but just like Jews, I'm not blinded by one moral consideration to hate everyone, any more than I would love every European.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Hunter said:


> Inasmuch as circumcision is a precious thing for Judaism, with which it is strongly associated, your apparent lack of concern is one reason the status quo is in place. Let me decide to what my anger or hatred may apply. Oh, believe me, I don't have warm rosy thoughts when I come across U.S. citizens or Filipinos and so on - but just like Jews, I'm not blinded by one moral consideration to hate everyone, any more than I would love every European.


I am not telling you what you should or shouldn't hate. (Although generally most of modern culture looks down a bit on blind hate...) But please don't confuse acknowledging of complexity of a culture with having a "lack of concern". If I could have afforded the luxury or privilege of entirely separating myself from a culture that cuts and ignoring all other elements of it, I probably would have. Yet their way of thinking has already been branded into my body forever. I can never truly be free of cutting cultures, and at 10 I could not escape to another country where I might have had more rights then I do here. Its far easier, to live in a black and white world, but as a boy born in America I was never afford the privilege to ever do so.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Hunter said:


> I think you have liberal friends
> 
> By which I mean, you have liberal friends who represent a very small minority of the religion best associated with infant circumcision. I'm not saying people don't think for themselves, but pandering to the religion is very much an indication for one of any age on how they feel about children's rights.


I'm rabidly anti circ and was before I met my husband. It didn't stop me from falling in love with someone raised Jewish. I know tons of Jews and the vast majority of them are cultural Jews who if they even go to shul, maybe go for Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. Just like there are tons of Christians that are basically Christmas and Easter Christians. Or even more common just cultural Christians that celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. The vast majority of Americans that circ don't do it for religious reasons. They do it because that's all they know. So why are you focusing on Israel and Judaism? Personally I wish circ was illegal, but there is lots of work to do with secular bogus health and beauty justifications for circ in the general population before we worry about religious circ.

BTW, attending shul and being married to a Jew didn't change my anti-circ feelings. Instead I converted him to also being pro intact.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Hunter said:


> Inasmuch as circumcision is a precious thing for Judaism, with which it is strongly associated, your apparent lack of concern is one reason the status quo is in place. Let me decide to what my anger or hatred may apply. Oh, believe me, I don't have warm rosy thoughts when I come across U.S. citizens or Filipinos and so on - but just like Jews, I'm not blinded by one moral consideration to hate everyone, any more than I would love every European.


This just sounds like justification for antisemitism frankly.


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## Hunter (Aug 3, 2006)

Arduinna said:


> This just sounds like justification for antisemitism frankly.


There's a loaded word. By which you mean what?

I don't like Judaism or religion in general for this and other reasons. That's kind of where I leave it. I don't go out committing hate crimes because of my opinions on how religion and religious society is structured. You can leave the secular matters alone; I hate them too and afford them no greater courtesy for the lacking wisdom of their behaviors.


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## 4chunut1 (Apr 7, 2006)

...I obviously don't know President Trump's circumcision status, but I would think it likely that his grandson, Ivanka's son would be circumcised, as the family is Jewish. But his youngest son, Barron, whose mother is European, probably is not circumcised, as mothers usually have a say in that decision. It would be interesting to know the stance on the subject of Trump's new Surgeon-General, appointed today, RAdm Sylvia Trent-Adams, a nurse.


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