# War between the Mom's



## eelownes (May 19, 2011)

Breastfeeding vs bottle feeding

Homemade baby food vs in a jar

Milk vs non-dairy babies

Stay-at-home vs working mama's

We all do things differently, but something I have noticed lately is we are all going after each other! I am a mama who thought that when I had a kid, she would be bottle fed and I would go straight back to work. Much to my amazement, I breastfed until my little one was a year old and quit my job as a political consultant. I get flack from working moms, but on the flip side, I hear stay-at-home mama's go after the working ones. What is happening here?

This time four years ago, I was working on the biggest campaign of my life... Hillary for President. She always said to us, "it takes a village" and it was not some cheesy quote from her book. She really meant that. I admired her so much for being a strong working mama. But that just did not pan out for me.

When I tried to go back to work, I sat at my desk sobbing about my child being in a day care all day. I would call them all day to see how she was doing! I finally marched into the owner of the firm's office and said, "i can't do this, I am sorry" and quit. But that is just my story.

I believe that we are all different and do things differently. Now of course, I do not have tolerance for smoking in front of babies, or getting drunk and then trying to take care of little ones. There are limits and decorum. But for the rest of us, why the war? What are we saying about women here by starting this war?

Thoughts?


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Because when you have reservations about the choices youve made (NOT YOU, general you) it makes you feel better to put someone else down who made a different choice from you. OR, you feel you need to defend your choices because you dont have 100% confidence in them.

I find it basic human nature to be somewhat defensive on a regular basis. And what bigger journey is there then parenthood, right? So thats gonna be the biggest thing to defend.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

I think a large part of it is in how you (general you) communicate your choices to others. For example:

"I do this because it is good for my family."

As opposed to:

"I do this because it is good for children."

The first allows the listener/reader to frame the choice in terms of what works/is good for a particular family. The second perhaps would put the listener/reader in a defensive position because it indicates that any other choice would be bad for children in general.

I have strong opinions/feelings about stuff like corporal punishment, and I tend to be a little less sensitive when communicating those opinions. Stuff like working/bottles/diapers...I know what works for me and family in our parenting journey and I think we do ourselves a disservice by engaging too much energy in criticism of choices that our different from ours. There are positive ways to communicate your choices without criticizing the choices of others.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I honestly dont see how it is any different than any other "war" that goes on. People have differences because they value different priorities. I totally agree with Charlie'sAnglel that people are defending their choices because they arent 100% confident with them.

There have been "mommy wars" since the end of world war two (many women worked outside the home before then, but they were mostly childless) when the men returned to work and women were expected to return to the home. Many women stayed in the workplace because they liked working outside the home and they got a lot of flack for it. Im not saying its right. Im a WAHM, but I think if you want to work outside the home that is your business. Personally, I cant imagine being away from my kid for that many hours a week, but a lot of women make a lot of money and can afford to send their kids to good schools and provide a stable financial situation (which we also dont have). Im just saying that its not like we created this war, its been going on for a long , long time.

Different people make different parenting choices, and have hopes of raising different types of children. I hope to raise a bright, inquisitive child who is sensitive but strong. Loving and kind. Always questioning authority and the state of the world in some hope of making it better. I want her to have the basic skills of how to live in this world, and how to survive in the woods for a few days. I hope she knows how to do trigonometry, bake, and build a decent fire.htb

My neighboor wants to raise a kid who can get a good job, afford a nice apartment in the city, marry a well off man (which is why she should not eat sweet rolls:eyesroll ) and have lots of little babies (as long as they arent with a black man) for her to tell they are getting too fat too. We have totally different priorities. She works outside the home, sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and sends them to grandma's on the weekend. She spends just enough time with them to tell them everything they are doing wrong.

Its more than just bottle fed vs. breastfed that make people battle each other. I think the sad thing is that most of us have more similar views on parenting than a lot of people in this world and we are so busy bickering about whether or not to cloth diaper and if that is "cruncy" or not that we completely forget about the real parenting differences that exist.


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## new2this (Feb 11, 2010)

People are judgmental by nature. Its how it is presented that starts the wars. IMO

People do tend to question what they do because I think its human nature to do so. I mean we all want to do what is best for our kid and our families. So when its presented that I am doing less then perfection in raising my children yeah it hurts because your attacking something that is so personal ones love and motivations for their children.

I really do try to be 100% in my choices that it is the right thing for us. But I also am open to seeing the otherside if it is different then mine. However it is presented in a well your way is just wrong then it comes off as judgey and I'm better then you because I would never think of doing something like that.


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## Kerynna (Mar 11, 2011)

I think sometimes we get caught up in seeing things as this OR that; one thing vs. another; when really, life is so much more complicated than that. In my parenting lifetime, I have exclusively breastfed some of my kids, and some of them got a bottle on occasion. Some of them were exclusively disposable diapered, and some of them had cloth diapers. For part of my parenting life, I was a SAHM, and for part of it I have been a WOHM. That said, for me personally, I see the so-called 'crunchy' lifestyle as ideal, and that is what I generally strive toward.

The phrase "walk a mile in someone else's shos" goes a long way in alleviating the so-called mommy wars. We all do the best we can. Seeing others as inferior, or our own choices as superior, is short-sighted and when we get older, we realize that we all have to make compromises sometimes.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

i think the endless competition may have a good result in the long-term ... the mamas of today and tomorrow will (hopefully) be a lot more informed and a lot more involved with their children, which is a great thing.


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## cat13 (Dec 8, 2010)

Sometimes I think that "crunchy" parents are so used to being judged by their families/public that when they finally get to a community like MDC, they end up switching roles and being the bully without realizing it.


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## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

I think a lot of it has to do with having limited exposure to/experience with other types of people.

The US is interesting in that there are many different kinds of people: different classes, different cultures, different races, etc, but that we all mostly tend to stay in a little enclave of similar people. So, for example, if you are white, middle class, Christian, homeschooling, etc, you mostly associate with other white, middle class, Christian, homeschooling, etc people. But because there are all these other types of people around, you do see little bits of their lives from time to time. And then all the judgment comes out when they do things differently than you do. And, we tend to say that "all" of one type of person acts like the one example we've actually met from that subgroup.

For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong. Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that. Which is, of course, not true. But we can only make our judgments based on what we have experienced, and if a person has limited experience with another subgroup, and that experience has been negative, the person is more than likely going to extend that judgment to everyone in that subgroup.

In my experience, when you say something is ALWAYS or NEVER...you're setting yourself up for an argument.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Said so much better then I ever could. I am all "debated" out. But thank you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong. Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that. Which is, of course, not true. But we can only make our judgments based on what we have experienced, and if a person has limited experience with another subgroup, and that experience has been negative, the person is more than likely going to extend that judgment to everyone in that subgroup.
> 
> *In my experience, when you say something is ALWAYS or NEVER...you're setting yourself up for an argument. *


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

I think that humans a judgemental by nature. I think that the push to be a "perfect" mom makes a lot of us competitive and narrow minded. It's all about perception. If your perception is that the way to raise a happy, healthy child is to practice AP values and to shun anything "mainstream" than you're going to see the moms who feed their kids candy, use CIO, or formula feed by choice as bad parents. I think that what we need to be looking at, is the cases where there is REAL abuse. Feeding a baby formula may seem like abuse to you, because you breastfed and can't see why anyone wouldn't, but to actually compare it to abuse is a slippery slope. What kind of lasting damage is a child going to have from eating formula, really? Or from eating a lollipop? The real cases that should be judged are when the children are in danger or being neglected. We focus so much on the minute details because of our own insecurities, that we often overlook the cases where there is a real problem. We program our brains to see everything AP as "good" and everything mainstream as "bad" so we miss the real abuse happening in the guise of AP. Clearly, just my .02.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo*
> 
> What kind of lasting damage is a child going to have from eating formula, really?


According to the US Department of Women's Health (right here on their website), formula-fed babies are more likely to have diabetes (type 1 and 2), asthma, SIDS, childhood leukemia. I'd count those as "lasting damage."

Now, I'm in complete agreement with you guys on thinking it's silly to criticize someone for using a stroller, especially when both the baby and the parents seem happy with the stroller. But I don't think we should minimize the importance of life-and-potential-death things like human milk and car seats just so moms who don't feel like using those things won't feel bad.

Quote:


> For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong. Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that. Which is, of course, not true. But we can only make our judgments based on what we have experienced, and if a person has limited experience with another subgroup, and that experience has been negative, the person is more than likely going to extend that judgment to everyone in that subgroup.


I totally did not get that vibe from what she wrote. I think some people are so used to being judged that they start seeing judgment where it doesn't exist (hence the drama in the "You might be crunchy" topic).


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## eelownes (May 19, 2011)

The first friend that had a baby, I gave her as a shower gift a 12-pack of jarred baby food, pack of disposable diapers and a manicure kit. I look back on that gift all the time. I was only 26 and was in the middle of a huge congressional campaign. The fact that I got time to get a gift at all was special. But today I would never give such a gift. I did not know that I was going to be the kind of mom that I turned out to be. It was literally just a natural process for me. Having said that, other moms do things the way they see fit. What has been so upsetting for me is watching all the attacks on one another.

I have to admit that there are times when I just cringe and then judge other moms doing something that I would not do. I have to pause and then think to myself, does this really matter in my life? Sometimes it does. Like once at a baseball game this mother sitting next to us just handed my daughter one of those little icky turkey sticks in water! I have never given my child meat and she would just hand her something without my permission?! Ahhh that was upsetting. What struck me is interesting though, was her husband really went off on her. Something about how she would of read me the riot act if I had given her twins food without permission. I concluded on that day, when you are a mom, YOU think YOU know best. It takes forever self-improvement and self-awareness to over come judgement. It is not easy.

Thank you for all the feed back!


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I don't really discuss parenting choices much with people. With people who do things very differently, I keep it really vague if the things I do "oddly" are commented on. It's easy to be polite and friendly.

Sometimes people feel the need to explain something they do differently, and I don't really think too much about it. On some things I say, honestly, that I see both sides of the choices or something like that. This is easy with something like homeschooling or WOH or TV watching. Other things like elective FF I figure my disagreeing opinion is completely valueless in talking to someone happy to make that choice, so why say a word? And I do NOT mean that I silently judge and pity or fume about it, either. I really and truly stopped caring how other people did things like this a long time ago. Sure I would like it if more people agreed with me, but they don't and that's just the way it is--I am too busy to care and simply have better things to focus my thoughts on.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I actually encounter very very little IRL confrontation about parenting choices. I mostly read about this phenomenon online. And I don't live in some utopia where we all parent identically. I was all ready to experience the negative comments I always read about when I NIPed and babywore, but everyone was either openly supportive or didn't say anything at all.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

I get the impression that a lot of the mommy wars are fueled by childless people. I know I had a lot of opinions about parenting before I actually had a child! I was with a childless friend the other day who was going on about how horrible her pregnant friend was because she wasn't talking prenatal vitamins. I had another friend who "has a really hard time respecting women who don't breastfeed." Um, yeah, breastfeeding is great, but not everyone gets the support they need to establish a breastfeeding relationship. Seriously, if I hadn't had my mom and MIL with me, encouraging me along, I wouldn't have kept breastfeeding DD. Anyway the list goes on. I think once you have a kid you are humbled, and realize that there are a lot of hard choices out there.


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## habitat (Jan 17, 2009)

I just want to say that I was formula-fed and well-loved by a wonderful mother. I resent having her called an abusive parent. I have no illnesses, no deficiencies and I always tested well at school (not that that means anything at all), thankyouverymuch. What WHO says is probably true about correlation, but formula fed babies are, in general, also from a completely different background than many babies who are breastfed, which I strongly believe has a lot to do with the "lasting effects" statistics, more than the formula itself.

Do I believe that breastfeeding is best? Yes, absolutely, 100%. Would I ever recommend formula over the breast? Absolutely not.

But I do believe that when we start calling formula abusive *shudder*, then we're calling a lot of mothers from different class/cultural/life experiences abusive mothers. And that is a scary and dangerous line and says a lot about classism and racism and privilege, honestly. And I can't swallow that.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> I just want to say that I was formula-fed and well-loved by a wonderful mother. I resent having her called an abusive parent. I have no illnesses, no deficiencies and I always tested well at school (not that that means anything at all), thankyouverymuch. What WHO says is probably true about correlation, but formula fed babies are, in general, also from a completely different background than many babies who are breastfed, which I strongly believe has a lot to do with the "lasting effects" statistics, more than the formula itself.
> 
> ...


Has anyone actually called your formula-feeding mother abusive? I didn't see that in this thread.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> I just want to say that I was formula-fed and well-loved by a wonderful mother. I resent having her called an abusive parent. I have no illnesses, no deficiencies and I always tested well at school (not that that means anything at all), thankyouverymuch. What WHO says is probably true about correlation, but formula fed babies are, in general, also from a completely different background than many babies who are breastfed, which I strongly believe has a lot to do with the "lasting effects" statistics, more than the formula itself.
> 
> ...


Unless your child is the "one in x" that the statistics talk about, it really doesn't matter in the long run, barring outright abuse/abject poverty, what parenting decisions parents decide on for their children. And that is a very humbling thought. (General) we want to believe that the decisions and sacrifices we make for our children will result in superior adults. And it isn't necessarily so. There have been successful adults who come from horrendous abuse/abject poverty, raised by nannies,etc. and the reverse is also true. The 'mommy wars" will end when we all realize that we all are collectively doing the best we can with the resources and children we have. And remember that expert advices changes as well as laws over the years as more information is discovered and old information is modified.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that. Which is, of course, not true. But we can only make our judgments based on what we have experienced, and if a person has limited experience with another subgroup, and that experience has been negative, the person is more than likely going to extend that judgment to everyone in that subgroup.
> 
> for an argument.


Thats not what I meant, I was only explaining that there are people in this world whose parenting view differ GREATLY from most of ours, but we tend to focus on our differences. Its like playing against people who are on your same team.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sewchris2642*
> 
> Unless your child is the "one in x" that the statistics talk about, it really doesn't matter in the long run, barring outright abuse/abject poverty, what parenting decisions parents decide on for their children. And that is a very humbling thought. (General) we want to believe that the decisions and sacrifices we make for our children will result in superior adults. And it isn't necessarily so. There have been successful adults who come from horrendous abuse/abject poverty, raised by nannies,etc. and the reverse is also true. The 'mommy wars" will end when we all realize *that we all are collectively doing the best we can with the resources and children we have. * And remember that expert advices changes as well as laws over the years as more information is discovered and old information is modified.


Im sorry, but I just dont believe that. There are A LOT of parents who are not doing the best they can. My mother was one of them. I remember several times when people at the grocery store or in other public places would tell my mom things like "dont pull her up by the arm like that" or "hey, dont smack her, she is just a baby" or "you know if you let your kids drink coke out of a bottle their teeth will rot out" or "gosh, you all are at McDonald's everytime Im here, do you ever eat at home?" along with many other remarks that embarrassed me and my four siblings. She always bitched the whole way home "Why do they think they have the right to tell me how to parent my kids? What the f---, mind your own business" and other nice things...

My brother and sister both have rotten teeth and have since they were little, and its because she fed them sugar and didnt force them to brush, not because they have "bad teeth".
My mother hit all of us all the time, including when we were as young as 6 months old.
My brother did have his shoulder pulled out of socket as a result of her yanking him up by the arm
We DID eat fast food every night and all of us struggle with weight

But god forbid you try to tell her anything, especially that breastmilk is better for a baby than formula. Because she will let you know that she's "got better things to do than sit around with a baby stuck to her tit all day long."

and she wasnt on drugs, she wasnt an alcoholic, she was married with 5 kids and came from an upper middle class background. She thought she knew it all, and she was a horrible parent. To this day, she cant take advice or criticism about her parenting styles.

I just dont believe everyone is doing the "best they can." There are a lot of people who put their own wants and needs above that of their children.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Okay, I think there is a huge difference between people who don't care (their needs above the child's needs when it comes to breastfeeding; basic child care; exhibit basic uninformed practices...and I mean uninformed) and people who either are forced to practice certain things (i.e. there was a point where I had to supplement because of low supply, etc.). I'm not trying to do any one-upmanship here but my bio mom (who was married to my father) took off with another man when I was two, leaving my dad to raise me until he married my stepmom. I wouldn't know her (bio-mom) from Adam if she were walking down the street but to this day I ask myself: "How could a mom leave her two-year-old for a man?" What matters to me in the end is not whether she breastfed me or held me close. What matters to me is that her position as MOM didn't matter. She opted to abandon us because she loved someone else more. I guess the point with me being is that we place a lot of focus on practices when ultimately (and speaking only for myself) a child wants to be wanted and loved and respected. I grew up knowing that I was not wanted by my own mother. It had nothing to do with breastfeeding and babywearing, but with the idea that me, as a person, wasn't worth sticking around for. It has shaped my parenting in a positive way. I try to be careful about labeling people as bad parents. My own parents (stepmom and dad) practiced corporal punishment because they thought it was the right thing to do. I don't doubt that they love me, but I don't agree with their methods and to this day I have certain resentments against them for the physical abuse that they bestowed upon us (mostly out of anger). That being said, I don't think they were evil, just misinformed.

All you have to do is go on any mainstream parenting forum and people acknowledge that corporal punishment is good. The perspective needs to be changed, but not by telling people they are bad. That only leads to defensiveness. We need to change the perception that kids can be 'good' without physical punishment. There are bad parents who don't love their children and cause them much pain. I'm not sure what we can do with regard to them. There are parents who love their children and cause them pain. I think for those parents, we can educate by example. Why? Because ultimately their hearts are in the right place, but they haven't found the proper tools.

I was born out of a generation of parents who really didn't have good information available to them. They did things because they believed advertisements and the medical establishment (I respect medicine but I also think that medical students are taught to err on the side of caution and doctors are sometimes influenced by big pharma). I also recognize that I was born in a generation where people were expected to have kids, and the problem was two-fold: people had kids whether or not they wanted them, which opened up the possibility that in some cases kids were unwanted, but expected; and people were unequipped to deal with kids (whether the wanted them or not) which led to the practices that we find find uncomfortable or abhorrent. I think there are very few "bad" people out there. I do think there are a lot of people who are ill-equipped and misinformed. Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I think that will change.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> *Okay, I think there is a huge difference between people who don't care (their needs above the child's needs when it comes to breastfeeding; basic child care) and people who either are forced to practice certain things (i.e. there was a point where I had to supplement because of low supply, etc.).* I mean, I'm not trying to do any one-upmanship here but my bio mom (who was married to my father) took off with another man when I was two, leaving my dad to raise me until he married my stepmom. I wouldn't know her (bio-mom) from Adam if she were walking down the street but to this day I ask myself: "How could a mom leave her two-year-old for a man?" What matters to me in the end is not whether she breastfed me or held me close. What matters to me is that her position as MOM didn't matter. She opted to abandon us because she loved someone else more. I guess the point with me being is that we place a lot of focus on practices when ultimately (and speaking only for myself) a child wants to be wanted and loved and respected. I grew up knowing that I was not wanted by my own mother. It had nothing to do with breastfeeding and babywearing, but with the idea that me, as a person, wasn't worth sticking around for. It has shaped my parenting in a positive way. I try to be careful about labeling people as bad parents. My own parents (stepmom and dad) practiced corporal punishment because they thought it was the right thing to do. I don't doubt that they love me, but I don't agree with their methods and to this day I have certain resentments against them for the physical abuse that they bestowed upon us (mostly out of anger). That being said, I don't think they were evil, just misinformed.
> 
> All you have to do is go on any mainstream parenting forum and people acknowledge that corporal punishment is good. The perspective needs to be changed, but not by telling people they are bad. That only leads to defensiveness. We need to change the perception that kids can be 'good' without physical punishment. There are bad parents who don't love their children and cause them much pain. I'm not sure what we can do with regard to them. There are parents who love their children and cause them pain. I think for those parents, we can educate by example. Why? Because ultimately their hearts are in the right place, but they haven't found the proper tools.


The bolded is exactly what I mean. There are plenty of people to ACTUALLY disagree with, why do we waste our time arguing between ourselves. I think there is a huge difference between a mom who wants to bf and cant and a mom who just doesnt care. My mom had plenty of education about it, she njust couldnt be bothered. The OP wanted to kow why we bother fighting about parenting differences, and I was just trying to point out that she is right. Its stupid that we fight amongst ourselves when we mostly agree on things. There are people who parent in real ways that we disagree with, and it makes our arguments about small issues seem even smaller. I think we actually agree.


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## Brandybutter (Jun 5, 2011)

The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.

Most of my friends are mainstream parents who use disposables, weaned before 1yr, have sleep trained their kids and basically have a parent-centered style. They know what I'm doing (the complete opposite!), but for some reason they choose to do what is popular advice from their Drs, hospital mom groups, or books. I do sense that these parents are not very confident and I do see developmental differences in our children. Again, this makes me feel like I'm on the right track and I would never dream of pointing these out. Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.

My friendships are dear, and I'm finding that maintaining them with these differences is building tolerance, compassion, and making me a better role model for my son. These friends are likely doing the same with me! We all have our individual karma, parents and children. I will be an advocate for any child that I feel is abused or neglected, but that is where I draw the line.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *petey44* 

For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong. Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that.

I didn't read that in her post at all. I think that's a big jump from her saying that one wohm is like that, to interpreting it as her saying that all wohm are like that.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

breast is the best...in majority of cases

Formula is the best if mom has not milk, if mom has HIV or other transmissible infection, if mom is on meds that can harm the baby, if mom has mental illness that is made worse by nursing, if mom can't earn money if pumping is not possible at work, if baby is allergic to breast milk , if baby has some metabolic disorder.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *habitat*
> 
> I just want to say that I was formula-fed and well-loved by a wonderful mother. I resent having her called an abusive parent. I have no illnesses, no deficiencies and I always tested well at school (not that that means anything at all), thankyouverymuch. What WHO says is probably true about correlation, but formula fed babies are, in general, also from a completely different background than many babies who are breastfed, which I strongly believe has a lot to do with the "lasting effects" statistics, more than the formula itself.
> 
> ...


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

What you elighten me on what developmental differences you see?

My older son is 15 now, I observe his friends and I can;t tell who was FF, who was BF, who was cloth diapers and who was not, whose mom had epidural and who was born in the pool, who was in daycare and who was not.

I can tell you whoss parents are educated middle class and whose are poor. Thats about it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.
> 
> ...


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I was under the impression that it was virtually impossible for a baby to be allergic to breastmilk. It's very possible to be allergic to something that mom is eating that passes into breastmilk, though that can be removed from mom's diet. All in all, I agree with what you are saying. I'm really "laidback" on the bf vs ff issue. I don't think it's cool to tell any woman what she "should" do with her body. Education is super important, though.

Also as far as the middle class vs. poor, that seems a little classist. I have friends who are poor (and me- I have been on foodstamps, and we have definitely been poor since having kids), and they are fantastic parents, and I don't think you'd be able to see a difference in their kids compared to others who are more middle class. I don't think you'd see a difference in my son compared to his classmates, and we are probably on the bottom (income wise) in this upper class neighborhood. People can be poor/broke and not be stereotypically poor.

eta- I also don't understand how people think that saying, eg, "xyz activity is wrong" is saying "any parent who does xyz activity is a bad horrible parent." I have friends who spank, and it's never occurred to me to think they were bad parents. They are doing something that I consider wrong, sure. They happen to be great parents, who have fun with and care deeply for their kids. Me thinking that spanking is wrong doesn't change that they are good parents (even Imo), and that they are good parents doesn't change that I think that spanking is wrong.

Otoh, I have had a person say that they were worried about my child's wellbeing because I was gd'ing and not cio. I did take that as judgement on me as a parent vs. judgement about the specific things I was doing. She said she was worried about his wellbeing for crying out loud! If she had said that in her opinion, co-sleeping is harmful, I would not take that to mean that she thought I was a bad parent, just that she disagreed with that specific thing I was doing.


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## motherhendoula (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the 'wars' got started because we are often put in the position of defending our choices to others. What did the world at large say to the women in the 60's who wanted to continue working outside the home ...even after they were married! - those women had to defend their choices - and most likely did so well at it they convinced more women that it was a *good thing* to keep working outside the home after marriage - women with children were rarely hired for work in the 70's - but by the 80's it was status quo. By the mid 80's newspapers, magazines, talk shows abounded with articles and 'experts' telling us that day care was good for our children - it would make them strong and independent..... by the 90's it was simply assumed Mom was going back to work as most couples need two incomes to pay their mortgage, two cars, retirement fund, college fund, student loan and credit card debts.

I really dont think there is a war going on here at all - we all know someone on a personal level who does things differently than we do - yet we still like them and respect them as a mother. The 'War' was created on TV, it was created to sell magazines, to sell air time, to sell books by experts.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

I think I feel most defensive and bothered when I am worried that what I'm doing may not be the best. For example, I'm not sure about how I want my children fed. I don't think doctors or other health professionals have a very good grasp on what is a healthy diet for humans and I have, by a ton of painful trial and error, found what works for me -- which no doctor in his right mind would agree with (I eat exactly 2.25 g of carbohydrate a day, I eat only once a day, normally, and I eat NO vegetables). Of course all my friends are freaking vegans. lol I don't feed my children the same way I feed myself, but they sure as hell aren't vegan! I almost always get defensive feeling when people talk about how best to feed themselves or their children -- because I'm worried that I haven't hit on the right answer for my own kids.

There are other areas that I can see a lot of other people are very sensitive where I'm not at all. And I think that must be because I am very happy and confident about how I've handled those things. I had a c-section after induction the first time around and a scheduled c-section the second time. First off, when I look back at my births, especially the first, they were just dreamy wonderful for me. If I were terribly anti-c-section, I'm sure I would feel wounded, etc, but the truth of the matter is that I feel really freaking lucky to have birthed a child any-old-way (I'm a type I diabetic and believed for years I couldn't have children). And I know that, the first time around, I did everything in my power to push my little one out the old fashioned way, and I'm quite proud of how well I did. The fact that he came out by c-section on the end is pretty inconsequential to me. I don't feel one iota bad about myself for not having him vaginally, and I can't even fathom why someone would feel that way. (I do understand and agree that vaginally would be a great way to go, just not sure why I'd feel bad about myself for it not happening.)

So, in a way, I think it may be good for us to read those posts/threads that most upset us. Those are probably the areas we need help in -- not across the board, I'm sure, but for the most part.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

This is an interesting thread. One quick point that DH and I have come across is this: our neighbors parent differently than we in more ways than I could count. And we think they are great parents and a great family. Their children are healthy and happy. Our child is healthy and happy. Over the years, DH has helped me to be much less judgmental of others, which, in the end, has helped me be more accepting of myself.

In this MDC community, we are quick to get pissed at people who challenge our beliefs and practices, right? So why are we inclined to judge other's actions? Because it's human nature, and we have to catch ourselves when we get stuck in judgments. Yes, there are some "rights" and "wrongs," but much of parenting is personal preference, habit, and innate instinct.

And why are there Mommy Wars? Because we want to reassure ourselves that we are doing the best we can for our children. Many women are very insecure, I think, and this adds fuel to the fire. DH and I are very similar in our AP-ish parenting approaches, but it's outside of his radar to look at another dad in the same way I'd look at another mom. I think it's a gender-based war, kind of. Or something like that. Or not. But I'm being indecisive. Or maybe not.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.
> 
> ...


Bolded above is what I've also encountered... People basically following bad advice because they don't have any other sources of information. This is why I don't judge other parents, but I DO judge the institutions that push CIO, formula, subpar childcare, etc. on families. There is this machine of bad advice & bad policy going around & it becomes a cycle because those who follow the bad advice become entrenched & resistant to other options/approaches.

That said, being a little judgmental can actually be healthy if it helps you to reevaluate the choices you're making. Call it constructive judgment, maybe? But that's definitely not what the "mommy wars" are about... definitely that's unproductive.

Otherwise, I simply can't judge my friends who choose not to breastfeed or give up on it early... I just don't know what their experiences have been. Maybe they got bad advice? A bad pediatrician? No access to a LC? Sometimes we talk about these things, but always in a gentle way. When I feel I can't talk without judging (as in when CIO comes up in the conversation), I just politely walk away -- I can't see the use in making my friends feel bad about decisions they've made long ago but I also know that I'm just human & not capable of putting on a smile & reassuring them they've done the right thing. If they really want to talk about approaches to sleep in an open way, then I engage.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

NO one is pushing sub-par day care on anyone. This is truly classist. What is so difficult to understand? For many women neither there is not choice. some women would like to stay home but they can;t because the only way to afford rent, food and get health care is too work. Other women would like to work but stay home because daycare is so expensive.

Unless you marry well or come from a background that allowed you to have savings, there is not choice.

Reason we have sub par daycare is because moms spend times on stupid Mommy Wars instead of forming a lobby like an AARP and lobby for what women in many civlized countireshave, affordability and subsides daycare.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


You're right, we actually do agree!









I've read some of the subsequent posts and it reminds me that we are still caught up in practices which we think results in better children (i.e. AP stuff results in developmentally superior children; people who utilize daycare are not raising their children but people who don't will have awesome children). I feel if we get past these misconceptions we can have relevant discussions about how to help parents be the best parents they can, despite their circumstances or choices. Again, I'm not talking about stuff like corporal punishment, with which I think rises to a different level than the non-breastfed baby. I think everyone needs to take a step back and start recognizing how you communicate what you do and why you do it (something I touched on in my first post). It would go a long way in helping new parents come to the realization that maybe there is an alternative and perhaps beneficial way to do things. You don't win people to your side by telling them that your child is superior because of it or that they are not raising their children. JMHO.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> NO one is pushing sub-par day care on anyone. This is truly classist. What is so difficult to understand? For many women neither there is not choice. some women would like to stay home but they can;t because the only way to afford rent, food and get health care is too work. Other women would like to work but stay home because daycare is so expensive.
> 
> ...


I think you totally misunderstood me. Sub-par daycare is "pushed" on families in the sense that there's no other affordable choice for many, many families. Of course it's not a choice... that's my whole point. Yet families are judged all the time (part of the mommy wars) for sending their children to such places.

I think maybe the context of the other things I was listing made my post less clear: Yes, we have doctors & corporations literally pushing formula & we have "experts" & doctors literally pushing CIO. In a less literal (but no less real) sense, the government & many (most?) jobs "push" sub-par daycare by not offering enough subsidies, not offering adequate oversight, not offering enough options, not offering enough pay to employees, not offering adequate maternity leave, .... I could on & on. Anyway, that's what I was getting at.

If you still think that's classist, then so be it.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> NO one is pushing sub-par day care on anyone. This is truly classist. What is so difficult to understand? For many women neither there is not choice. some women would like to stay home but they can;t because the only way to afford rent, food and get health care is too work. Other women would like to work but stay home because daycare is so expensive.
> 
> ...


This is simply not true. I didnt marry "well" (well, I did, he is a wonderful man, but not wealthy or even above poverty level) and I have NO savings. I SAH because its my priority. I'd rather be with my kid than making money. I dont want to teach my child that money is super important. We have chosen to live with less money than most people. We are very frugal. I dont buy brand new clothing often, I dont drive a new car, I dont really go out often, so we dont spend a whole lot of money.I'd rather spend my time gardening, making things from scratch , thrift store shopping, and figuring out ways to be thrifty than going to work for someone else while someone else is watching my kid. I want my life to belong to me 100%, not to my employer or my childcare provider. Yes, we live month to month right now.

I chose to be self employed and figure out other ways to make money so that I could stay home with my kid. I dont judge mom's who chose to go to work. I think there are a lot of people who have no choice, but saying that unless you marry well or were born with money you HAVE to put your kids in subpar childcare is ridiculous.

Please note, this is NOT a slam against WOHM's, this is why I do things the way that I do them and it has nothing to do with anyone else's choices about why they do things the way that they want. It is only MY opinion about why the bolded statement above is not true, and in my own opinon, classist. To me it says, "Unless you were rich or you got a man to take care of you, you have no choices in life." Well, I'm poor, was raised poor, and I am perfectly capable of figuring out ways to get by without my husband and without daycare. Although he does help, I could do the same thing without him. It makes me wonder what income bracket you are in to be running around saying what poor women can and cant do.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Whatever. All those dicussions about Mommy Wars only lead to one thing, increase in blood pressure on my side. As lsot as people are divided by stupid arguments over thing that are meangless in the long runs, politicians get to opress women in this country in every which way possibale


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Wait, I thought we weren't judging parents based on specific decisions in this thread?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Have you read the studies? Despite all the anecdotal evidence such as, the cousing of my welfare cousin did so well etc, family income is the biggest predictor of how well child does in life. It is ridiculous to deny that money matters.
> 
> ...


poor you, poor you. You and your taxes. I bet you'd rather them be spent on our military "defense," huh?

I have food stamps, this is a rough time for us, I dont care for your "disgust". I have paid for it with MY taxes for the past ten years and my DH is still paying for it with his. Be disgusted with me all you want, you cant do a damn thing about it. In fact, I hope you get your ass handed to you by a whole bunch of "welfare moms" who are doing their best. I live 60 miles from the nearest city, making it a $20 round trip commute, plus $50 (for the cheap daycare) a day for childcare brings me to a grand total of $70 a day just to GO to work. Why would I spend $70 so that I could make (maybe?) $70 more? That is insane. And working for half of minimum wage. I work from home, I still qualify for food stamps and medicaid. Healthcare for me, DH, and DD would cost us over $500 a month. If you feel judged that is your own problem. No one has judged you for having a job, but you are sure throwing judgment around all over the place. Studies show a lot of things that I also dont believe in or agree with. I cant believe that earlier in this thread _you_ were calling people classist.Seriously.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Yes, I haven't seen any WOHM judgement in this thread. Personally, I think women should work if they want to, and wish women could sah if they wanted to. No one has to justify their decision to me. My only opinion on it is that it's sad when a mom (or dad) HAS to work if they'd prefer to stay home (or I suppose, if they have to stay home if they'd prefer to work, though that seems less likely).

For us, the system is different in Canada. We get a child tax benefit, which is not welfare, but is income based (people with incomes up to almost $100,000/year get some, but only $10/month). With that benefit, and other government benefits (again, not welfare but income based) that I would lose if I worked, plus having to pay for daycare, I would end up working full time and bringing home about $200-$300 per month. Sorry, not gonna happen, no matter how disgusted someone is with me.

"Disgust" is a strong word, with obviously negative connotations. Your statement is the most judgemental that I remember seeing in any of the recent crunchy/mainstream/"don't judge me for being different" threads.

Money might matter, but it's almost as if you were saying that it ALWAYS matters, and everything else never does. That makes very little logical sense.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Unless you marry well or come from a background that allowed you to have savings, there is not choice.


Seriously, this is just ridiculous.

My husband and I waited until we were financially secure enough for me to be a stay-at-home parent before we even tried to conceive. It wasn't our background that allowed us to save; it was our career opportunities and choices along the way that allowed for that. I "married well" in that my husband makes a good salary. We have not gotten, nor needed, assistance from our parents or anyone else.

I know many other SAHMs IRL who have similar stories, and I live in a very high cost of living area.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> breast is the best...in majority of cases
> 
> Formula is the best if mom has not milk, if mom has HIV or other transmissible infection, if mom is on meds that can harm the baby, if mom has mental illness that is made worse by nursing, if mom can't earn money if pumping is not possible at work, if baby is allergic to breast milk , if baby has some metabolic disorder.


See I disagree with this. Formula may be *necessary* in the circumstances you describe but that still doesn't imbue it with the qualities of breastmilk. It doesn't fill it with antibodies and phagocites and the perfect balance of easily absorbed nutrients or get rid of the excess sugar and salt. It is an adequate substitute and the baby will most likely thrive but necessity doesn't change the composition.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I am not talking about people who are having "rough time". I am all for paying for it. Better than for bombs I am talking about people who on purposely decide to go on welfare because they think that being a SAHM allows them to be a better parent. Why should I pay for that? It is choice.

There is not a shred of scientific evidence that shows that people raise by SAHM are any better than people raised by WAHMs

IN 1950, everyone was SAHMs and look at rampant substance abuse and unhappiness of the 1970.

*As far as "My husband and I waited until we were financially secure enough for me to be a stay-at-home parent before we even tried to conceive. It wasn't our background that allowed us to save; it was our career opportunities and choices along the way that allowed for that. I "married well" in that my husband"*

I do not know, maybe it is unknown fact, but pregnancy can happen without planning. Mother nature does not ask about size of one's bank account.

My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.

Mommy Wars are product of ridiculous societal inequality and denail of one simple fact....money matters. Things like paid parental leave, universal healthcare and high qulity availbale day care makes it a better life for all


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> What you elighten me on what developmental differences you see?
> 
> ...


Many of my reasons for making the parenting choices I do are not going to be obvious to the casual observer in the playground. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of many diseases in childhood and adulthood (probably more than we're aware of now). CIO increases the risk of stress-related conditions in adulthood - hypertension, depression, anxiety. Attachment/CC parenting is supposed to make children more likely to be confident, adults who feel comfortable in their own skin. You're not going to see any of that on the playground.

NB. These are by no means the only reasons I choose to BF, not CIO etc. I'm just trying to make the point that "I can't tell the difference in the playground" is, IMO, a really poor reason for making choices.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Under the conditions I describe formula is not a "maybe" but a must because the alternative is nothing. Before formula was available babies were given raw com milk and died.

Why is so hard to compute that now everyone can breastfeed? I could, but it did not make me a better mother, it just means I was very very lucky.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> See I disagree with this. Formula may be *necessary* in the circumstances you describe but that still doesn't imbue it with the qualities of breastmilk. It doesn't fill it with antibodies and phagocites and the perfect balance of easily absorbed nutrients or get rid of the excess sugar and salt. It is an adequate substitute and the baby will most likely thrive but necessity doesn't change the composition.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Links to studies please. I want to see scientific confrimation that doing every single AP thing produces confident child.

ACE score studies show that being abuse physically, exposed to violence in childhood etc has a negative impact on adulthood, but those are extreme things.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> Many of my reasons for making the parenting choices I do are not going to be obvious to the casual observer in the playground. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of many diseases in childhood and adulthood (probably more than we're aware of now). CIO increases the risk of stress-related conditions in adulthood - hypertension, depression, anxiety. Attachment/CC parenting is supposed to make children more likely to be confident, adults who feel comfortable in their own skin. You're not going to see any of that on the playground.
> 
> NB. These are by no means the only reasons I choose to BF, not CIO etc. I'm just trying to make the point that "I can't tell the difference in the playground" is, IMO, a really poor reason for making choices.


----------



## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> IN 1950, everyone was SAHMs and look at rampant substance abuse and unhappiness of the 1970.


????

I thought correlation did not equal causation?


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Haven't we done this before?


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong. Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that. Which is, of course, not true.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> Many of my reasons for making the parenting choices I do are not going to be obvious to the casual observer in the playground. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of many diseases in childhood and adulthood (probably more than we're aware of now). CIO increases the risk of stress-related conditions in adulthood - hypertension, depression, anxiety. Attachment/CC parenting is supposed to make children more likely to be confident, adults who feel comfortable in their own skin. You're not going to see any of that on the playground.
> 
> NB. These are by no means the only reasons I choose to BF, not CIO etc. I'm just trying to make the point that "I can't tell the difference in the playground" is, IMO, a really poor reason for making choices.


The "Attachment" literature is referring to attachment styles, and there's actually little to no evidence that "AP" as it is sold by advocates produces higher rates of "securely attached" babies and children. Across cultures and parenting styles, rates of attachment vs. avoidance are surprisingly stable. It's not just that you cannot tell who was breastfed and who was carried in a sling once they're all running around the playground, its that as long as there is love and responsiveness, you can't suddenly magically tell who was breastfed and who wasn't around the water cooler at work (or in the back of the tractor, or in the bus, or wherever you might be with a group of adults).

Also, this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/how-to-land-your-kid-in-therapy/8555/

Quote:


> Modern social science backs her up on this. "Happiness as a byproduct of living your life is a great thing," Barry Schwartz, a professor of social theory at Swarthmore College, told me. "But happiness as a goal is a recipe for disaster." It's precisely this goal, though, that many modern parents focus on obsessively-only to see it backfire. Observing this phenomenon, my colleagues and I began to wonder: Could it be that by protecting our kids from unhappiness as children, we're depriving them of happiness as adults?
> 
> Paul Bohn, a psychiatrist at UCLA who came to speak at my clinic, says the answer may be yes. Based on what he sees in his practice, Bohn believes many parents will do anything to avoid having their kids experience even mild discomfort, anxiety, or disappointment-"anything less than pleasant," as he puts it-with the result that when, as adults, they experience the normal frustrations of life, they think something must be terribly wrong.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

This thread is just proof that we cant have a decent conversation about anything without arguing about parenting styles. I rarely bow out of a thread, but I think this one has gotten way off topic and we were supposed to be talking about why these wars exist, not debating parenting styles.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.


That, at least, we agree on. Canada has it right in those areas, imo.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Under the conditions I describe formula is not a "maybe" but a must because the alternative is nothing. Before formula was available babies were given raw com milk and died.
> 
> Why is so hard to compute that now everyone can breastfeed? I could, but it did not make me a better mother, it just means I was very very lucky.


I wasn't suggesting that formula wasn't necessary in the cases you described. Nor did I in any way suggest that BFing makes you a better mother. My point, and I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear in my first post, is that even if formula is necessary it still doesn't have the immune and nutritional benefits of BM.


----------



## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> Links to studies please. I want to see scientific confrimation that doing every single AP thing produces confident child.
> 
> ACE score studies show that being abuse physically, exposed to violence in childhood etc has a negative impact on adulthood, but those are extreme things.


No studies and, again, I obviously haven't made myself clear. My point is not that AP is necessarily better but that the benefits which I hope to gain are not ones which will be discernible by casual observation of my child in the playground.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> This thread is just proof that we cant have a decent conversation about anything without arguing about parenting styles. I rarely bow out of a thread, but I think this one has gotten way off topic and we were supposed to be talking about why these wars exist, not debating parenting styles.


Right, and you're bowing out because everyone else has debated parenting styles and you don't want to get involved. Because when you posted the quote below, you weren't making any judgements about parenting styles.

You CERTAINLY didn't meant to imply that WOHMs are not going to be able to raise "bright inquisitive children" or that all working moms work so that their children can "Afford a nice apartment in the city and marry well." Even though that is how your post most definitely comes across.

For the record, you can work, and even use daycare, and still raise bright inquisitive children. Mine question authority all the time, take responsibility for the care of their pets and the safety of their friends, and can find wild foods in the woods and know how to build a fire with a bow drill. Even though they both went to daycare. Maybe its because they only went part time?

Quote:


> There have been "mommy wars" since the end of world war two (many women worked outside the home before then, but they were mostly childless) when the men returned to work and women were expected to return to the home. Many women stayed in the workplace because they liked working outside the home and they got a lot of flack for it. Im not saying its right. Im a WAHM, but I think if you want to work outside the home that is your business. Personally, I cant imagine being away from my kid for that many hours a week, but a lot of women make a lot of money and can afford to send their kids to good schools and provide a stable financial situation (which we also dont have). Im just saying that its not like we created this war, its been going on for a long , long time.
> 
> Different people make different parenting choices, and have hopes of raising different types of children. I hope to raise a bright, inquisitive child who is sensitive but strong. Loving and kind. Always questioning authority and the state of the world in some hope of making it better. I want her to have the basic skills of how to live in this world, and how to survive in the woods for a few days. I hope she knows how to do trigonometry, bake, and build a decent fire.htb
> 
> My neighboor wants to raise a kid who can get a good job, afford a nice apartment in the city, marry a well off man (which is why she should not eat sweet rolls:eyesroll ) and have lots of little babies (as long as they arent with a black man) for her to tell they are getting too fat too. We have totally different priorities. She works outside the home, sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and sends them to grandma's on the weekend. She spends just enough time with them to tell them everything they are doing wrong.


----------



## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DevaMajka*
> 
> Yes, I haven't seen any WOHM judgement in this thread.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc.


That's the one most obvious judgment of WOHMs I've seen in this thread- but there have been more. I find it interesting that you are able to skim past the points that you apparently don't want to see.

And btw, brandybutter, it is simply not true that OF COURSE bf is better than formula, or that children are best raised by family, not daycare. Think of all the examples of abusive parents that women here had to deal with, and just all the abuse in general in this world. You think daycare wouldn't have been a better choice for a little girl who was getting raped by her father, beaten by her mother, fondled by her uncle, whipped by her grandmother? You think the alcoholic mom should bf after drinking all day, instead of giving formula? Really?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

You know, I clicked on this thread and read it (quickly), went away from it, and then I decided...maybe the fact that I was about to walk away is interesting enough to post in it.

My elder son is 6, and I have had the joy of having a group of "mom friends" as well as other friends with kids all about the same age. We're all pretty middle-class: Some hanging on by their fingernails, some with healthy slush funds. We're not all white or Canadian-born, but we are geographically close to each other (mostly) and that makes for some similarities.

Lots of us have made very different decisions in our parenting. I have to say all our kids are amazing and attached...no word of a lie. (It's like Lake Wobegon. ) There is no way you could pick out who made which decisions. Some of the healthiest-living parents' kids have had major health issues. Some of the worst's kids have never even needed antibiotics.

I am sure as they grow, some of them will have trouble - at school, at home, with drugs, socially - and some will not remain okay, and I don't think I am able to predict at all which ones those will be. What I can predict though, is that if we continue to be as tight as group as we are - we will all get together at wine night and try to problem-solve together, and show up on each other's doorsteps with help. Trust me, that help listening to me vent from my *gasp* formula feeding friend, or the ability of the *gasp* WOHMs (I am a proud member) to buy someone's child a round of swim lessons *is* a critical difference for all our kids.

Variety is strength. Being willing to try out new things when what you're doing now is not working for you is strength. Being ready to flex what you thought you would do to what you need to do is strength. Sometimes holding to your ideals is strength. And sometimes, our strength or our understanding fails, or reality - job loss, illness etc. - intervenes...and then we have to depend on our own and our kids' resilience. And that's okay.

When we make wars, our kids are the casualties. When we give our kids the idea that our neighbours are not doing it right, we are teaching them to be harsh judges of themselves. When we focus on minute details of parenting rather than focusing on the village - yes, the vaunted village to raise the child, which means your formula-feeding, CIO-advocating woman who really does want to work in order to go to an exploitative resort for a week in the winter and get her nails done every week because she is a human being and a parent too - we really miss out on the point, I think.

I support you all in your choices.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

You know what I've noticed? You never see dad's doing this? Ever. Why is that? Why do mom's get so wrapped up in the drama?


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> You know what I've noticed? You never see dad's doing this? Ever. Why is that? Why do mom's get so wrapped up in the drama?


'Cause dads know that grandpas will make up for it! LOL. Seriously, my DH is the most laid back person I've ever met. He's confident in the way he handles things and I never hear him talking about other people and the way they choose to do things (aside from things that he thinks are in his opinion, morally wrong).

My father and mother, though (especially my father) butts in on everyone's business...and have many comments about how everyone else is running their households. They're gravely concerned about how their grandchildren are going to turn out. They think that our co-sleeping with DD will result in big problems for DD in her adult life. Whatever, Mom & Dad. The grandparent wars are much more on my radar than the mommy wars. At least with the mommy wars, I can just turn off the computer. My parents are in my face about everything!


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## Laurski (Mar 13, 2010)

*GuildJenn*--I think your post is really excellent and thoughtfully articulated!

I started reading this thread last night and have been mulling it over since. What I've been disheartened to see here is the potentially very interesting question devolve into a bit of myopia. A discussion of individual parenting styles doesn't really get us to the heart of the issue, because the I think the larger question is: who benefits from the so-called "Mommy Wars"? Certainly moms don't, for all such "wars" do is estrange us from each other and distract our attention from the more important issues.

Although I don't necessarily agree with everything *Alenushka* has written, I think she does make a very important point with the following:

Quote:


> My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.
> 
> Mommy Wars are product of ridiculous societal inequality and denail of one simple fact....money matters. Things like paid parental leave, universal healthcare and high qulity availbale day care makes it a better life for all


Patriarchy, institutionalized sexism, and the status quo all win when we become so invested in criticizing the parenting styles of others, rather than criticizing a system (at least in the US) that doesn't guarantee the health, safety, and well-being of all children through the availability of universal health care and quality day care. If those two things were available, the ability of parents to have choices as to how they want to structure their family relationships (both parents WOH, one parent SAH, one or both parents WAH, etc.) would increase in ways that would, hopefully, not require people to make extraordinary personal or financial sacrifices to do so. An extended parental leave for the first year of a child's life (or, in the case of adoption, the first year a child is at home with the parents), would also help support families in raising their children, which is another area in which the US is severely lacking.

So, to sum up, I think we need to step back from our personal preferences and defensiveness over our choices and instead question who benefits from "Mommy Wars" and why they benefit. I think it's safe to say, based on the direction this thread has taken, that none of us do.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Not exactly what I'm talking about. Although I personally know of a child will lots of cavities, not because he drank formula or had soda in his bottle, but because his mother had morning sickness almost her entire pregnancy. He was breastfed until he self-weaned when his mother was pregnant with his sister when he was 15 months old.

I'm talking about families who care about their children, make the best choices they can for their children. One family uses disposables, formula, kids sleep in their own rooms from day one, go to public school, etc. All the things that are considered "mainstream" here. Another family, living next door, does the whole AP route--breastfeed, co-sleep, maybe even birth at home, cloth diapers, home school, etc. As the kids grow up what differences, if any, get smaller and smaller until they become non-existent. Anot they all grow up to become happy, well-adjusted (whatever adjectives you want to insert) adults.

Whether or not I used cloth diapers, made or bought babyfood, put my kids in cribs or co-slept, etc. doesn't mean much 18-20 years later.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

This thread is sort of hilarious. Great demonstration, guys!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

As far as dads being judgemental, exdp is judgemental and will speak his mind on certain things (mostly on how a child is treated- he doesn't give a hoot about cd'ing, wahm vs. wohm, bf'ing...none of that stuff) if the situation calls for it. But somehow, I think that he says it in a way that people don't perceive it as judgement. He's very personable, and is intuitive as far as how people feel. I don't think people get defensive in response to him speaking up.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> That's the one most obvious judgment of WOHMs I've seen in this thread- but there have been more. I find it interesting that you are able to skim past the points that you apparently don't want to see.


I stand corrected. I guess I was looking for things specifically stating "wohm" or something. But even that statement was "kids are better off with x" and not "I'm disgusted by people who do x." That was my main point, that hers was the "biggest" judgement I'd noticed in this thread.

I don't think it's that I skim past points that I don't want to see. I think that statements like that don't register that much to me. Even if it were something that I was doing, ie if someone said that "kids are better off learning at home" (my kid is public schooled). I don't think that would register that much to me as a judgement, and I'm not sure why. I'll try to be more aware of those types of comments.

ftr, I don't think her statement "kids are better off at home" is necessarily true. It might be a better decision for some families, and daycare might be better for others. I had a friend who said she was a better mom, and happier, when she had a job and had regular time away from her kids. I believe her, and I can certainly see how that could be true for a lot of people (sometimes I think it would be true for me).


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> According to the US Department of Women's Health (right here on their website), formula-fed babies are more likely to have diabetes (type 1 and 2), asthma, SIDS, childhood leukemia. I'd count those as "lasting damage."
> 
> ...


Okay... I didn't even read anything after this post yet.... But really.... "But I don't think we should minimize the importance of life-and-potential-death things like human milk and car seats just so moms who don't feel like using those things won't feel bad."

For some Moms formula feeding, or say not feeding the baby is life or death. Do you realize how hurtful, rude and damaging statements like that are to Moms who absolutely COULD NOT breastfeed their babies for whatever reason?

How do you know just by looking at a Mom feeding her baby from a bottle what her reasons/background is for having to bottle/formula feed? This whole stupid argument about formula feeding is akin to abuse is a bunch of BS! If you only have the choice of your baby starving, or feeding your baby formula... what choice are YOU going to make??!!! And when you formula feed so your baby can THRIVE! I hope someone comes up and tells you that you are abusing your baby because you chose to formula feed.

:rolleyes


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.
> 
> ...


And people honestly wonder why some Mom's get angry and hurt... with statments like that? Your kids are so much better off because you get to raise them instead of daycare... Wow, it must be INCREDIBLY NICE AND PRIVILAGED for you to have that as an option. I guess my kids are just doomed because I'm a single mom and have no choice but to work and put my kids in the care of someone else, huh?!

Statements like that are what cause Mommy Wars... way to go.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoenix~Mama*
> 
> And people honestly wonder why some Mom's get angry and hurt... with statments like that? Your kids are so much better off because you get to raise them instead of daycare... Wow, it must be INCREDIBLY NICE AND PRIVILAGED for you to have that as an option. I guess my kids are just doomed because I'm a single mom and have no choice but to work and put my kids in the care of someone else, huh?!
> 
> Statements like that are what cause Mommy Wars... way to go.


And while we're at it, it even used the classic "Someone else is raising your children!" trope! Because as soon as they cross the threshold of the childcare center, the daycare providers become more important to a child than their parents. Yep, that one ALWAYS goes over well. There's NEVER been an MDC flamewar about the "raising" phrase, ever before. Because we all agree that we have neglible influence over our child's development because they have other people caring for them some of the time. In fact, the working husbands of SAHMs don't get to "raise" their children either! They just provide the cash for the person doing the real work!


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## Brandybutter (Jun 5, 2011)

Hi moms, so I'm new to the MDC forums and was excited to participate in this thread. I think it's really weird that this topic on why there are wars between moms has become a big war between us. I am truly sorry if anyone took offense in my previous post. I think those of you who have quoted and responded harshly to it were completely missing my point. I was expressing my personal thoughts, which are judgements, because we all have them! Those of us who parent mindfully have chosen a certain parenting style for a reason and for some of us, that is counter culture. There is no need to become defensive. Like I said in my post, I appreciate the differences between us. We are all passionate about parenting and love our kids. All of us on here have that in common. Bless you...


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> Hi moms, so I'm new to the MDC forums and was excited to participate in this thread. I think it's really weird that this topic on why there are wars between moms has become a big war between us. I am truly sorry if anyone took offense in my previous post. I think those of you who have quoted and responded harshly to it were completely missing my point. I was expressing my personal thoughts, which are judgements, because we all have them! *Those of us who parent mindfully have chosen a certain parenting style for a reason* and for some of us, that is counter culture. There is no need to become defensive. Like I said in my post, I appreciate the differences between us. We are all passionate about parenting and love our kids. All of us on here have that in common. Bless you...


To further illustrate how the debate gets going: In the context of your previous posts, the bolded above? It could carry the implication that those who don't choose SAHM are *not* "parenting mindfully." Or those who are not parenting exactly the way *you* parent are not "Parenting mindfully."


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## Brandybutter (Jun 5, 2011)

Savinthy, please, you are picking at every word in my post and making an issue out of it. I was referring to all of us here. We are all mindful of our parenting choices if we engage in parenting discussions. I have apologized and yet you persist. I am not antagonistic nor confrontational. Give me a break.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

True- Brandybutter said "and for some of us, that is counter culture." as the rest of the line that you bolded. So, for "some of us" it's counter culture, for others it's not. Both are included in those who parent mindfully. (that's how I read it)


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> Savinthy, please, you are picking at every word in my post and making an issue out of it. I was referring to all of us here. We are all mindful of our parenting choices if we engage in parenting discussions. I have apologized and yet you persist. I am not antagonistic nor confrontational. Give me a break.


I understand. I wouldn't go as far as calling myself counter culture, but because I WOHM, I think my family defies traditional 50s models of the mom stays at home while the dad wins the bread. It is pretty awesome that my DH co-parents and co-bread wins. To me, that used to be pretty counter culture but I think there is a whole new generation of dads who take stock in the raising of kids. Under the old model, dads provided, and their contributions to parenting maybe consisted of rough housing with the kids for an hour or so at night (that was my own dad). All of us here at MDC, and I would guess a lot of non-MDC types, parent in mindful ways. I wouldn't expect SAHMs (who actually care) to be bonbon eaters any more than I would expect SAHPs to define me as as someone who farms out their kid for others to raise them. My absolute opinion is that good kids are products of good parenting, which involves much more than the means and methods. Means and methods (to use a construction phrase) are a segment of getting there.

To me, parenting involves much more than the proverbial brick and mortal stuff, the time logged. To me, there is a spiritual and emotional component that is just as important as the physical stuff. I compare it to my own work (WOHM work): people are paying me to produce a good product. It is not gaged by the number of hours I do it, but by the quality of time and effort and care that I put into the end result. Like that, parenting is a much philosophical pursuit. It is not about clocking hours so much as the effort and love and hard work that you put into it. Look, my own parents (whom I love) were the perfect American 1950s-1970s family. Dad went off to work every day, mom stayed at home, kids ran wild in the woods. Unfortunately, there was a dark underside to my family (which I won't get into here) but it is prime example that parenting is about so much more than outward method. I learned a lot from how I was raised and how not to parent. I don't blame my parents for the way that they raised us, but I do resent the idea that they bought into a plan on how to raise children. My parents were victims of this and I feel bad that they didn't have the wherewithal to recognize that maybe certain things weren't right, or that maybe certain ways of connecting to their children were better. They were doing everything right by their time's standards, yet it was all so very wrong for me. Mindfulness ran much deeper than how they practiced their parenting, it was about how they viewed my siblings and I as human beings. Shoot, I can't explain myself well here. The whole thing is much more philosophical to me than hard methods.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> But for the rest of us, why the war?


Why the war? I don't know, but I refuse to buy into it.

I do think some people like to argue, regardless of what point they've chosen. I think people enjoy getting self-righteous and sometimes the consequence is that fellow mamas get torn down.

I believe that this sort of acrimony is poison to a person's psyche.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

So is it actually possible to talk about different parenting choices, to argue about them even, without entering into "the mommy wars"?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t2009*
> 
> So is it actually possible to talk about different parenting choices, to argue about them even, without entering into "the mommy wars"?


It certainly is possible IRL. I've never heard anyone use the phrase "dump your children in daycare" in face to face conversation. It seems to be used a lot in MDC as people assume they are in an echo chamber and will not be called on it.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> It certainly is possible IRL. I've never heard anyone use the phrase "dump your children in daycare" in face to face conversation. It seems to be used a lot in MDC as people assume they are in an echo chamber and will not be called on it.


That's a good observation. I think the wars are a result, in large part, of the open communication of the internet. It is not to say that certain underhanded comments are not made in the supermarket or amongst extended family members or neighbors. But all-out war IRL? That hasn't been my experience. I also think we're less delicate when espousing our feelings and opinions on the internet. In real life, we have social and family relationships to maintain, and I think we pause before we speak.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> It certainly is possible IRL. I've never heard anyone use the phrase "dump your children in daycare" in face to face conversation. It seems to be used a lot in MDC as people assume they are in an echo chamber and will not be called on it.


Yes, things are certainly amplified in the internet "echo chamber," but I do find a sort of awkwardness (if not open hostility) that has seeped into IRL conversations... As if everyone is reading the comments & commentary on the internet, the stuff that makes it into the media & into print, etc, & then closing up. I would love to talk about some of the things that are really interesting or important to me with friends, but I just don't for fear of being judged or for fear of my friends thinking I'm judging. So instead of talking out my dilemmas on discipline or sleep with people IRL (people who know my DS), I turn to the internet & make decisions on my own (meaning just DH & me)...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> That's a good observation. I think the wars are a result, in large part, of the open communication of the internet. It is not to say that certain underhanded comments are not made in the supermarket or amongst extended family members or neighbors. But all-out war IRL? That hasn't been my experience. I also think we're less delicate when espousing our feelings and opinions on the internet. In real life, we have social and family relationships to maintain, and I think we pause before we speak.


Yes, thankfully people are usually softer & kinder (& more thoughtful!) IRL!


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## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eelownes*
> When I tried to go back to work, I sat at my desk sobbing about my child being in a day care all day. I would call them all day to see how she was doing! I finally marched into the owner of the firm's office and said, "i can't do this, I am sorry" and quit. But that is just my story.
> 
> I believe that we are all different and do things differently. Now of course, I do not have tolerance for smoking in front of babies, or getting drunk and then trying to take care of little ones. There are limits and decorum. But for the rest of us, why the war? What are we saying about women here by starting this war?


I absolutely love your post mama! I hate the mom wars too even though I may have been guilty of judging here and there but have learned from these things. I will also say it may have been a bit of hormones and once they subsided, I was able to tolerate more. LOL. I was very successful in my career as you were in yours, I didn't even bother with the daycare because luckily, I was able to stay home and KNEW I'd NEVER be able to do the daycare thing. I also agree with your issues with smoking in front of babies and getting drunk while taking care of little ones. Being an ex-smoker and weekend drinker in my 20s, I really never thought much of how I would act once I had a baby. But I did have the sense to keep away from kids as much as possible. Now I find it INCREDIBLY strange how many people I know do that, even after babies, I find it quite unsettling. For me, becoming a mom was so much more fulfilling and I didn't need to do those things anymore or hang around people who do/did. But this is me.

I will say I am also SUPER tired of the mom wars and now really look for friends who don't judge. Family is family and you can't choose them, but you can at least see them as often (or not often) as you like. Have you posted to your tribal area to try and meet some moms in your area? I have and while it's slow going, I've had a few responses. 

Kudos to you, *eelownes*!


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> I was very successful in my career as you were in yours, I didn't even bother with the daycare because luckily, I was able to stay home and KNEW I'd NEVER be able to do the daycare thing.


One thing I have learned as a parent is never to say NEVER as it is practically an invitation for a kharmic smackdown. Circumstances can change very radically, and "I could never" can turn very quickly to "I need to". That is when you really learn not to be judgemental.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

you know.. daycare is not bad. some children learn best in a group setting. some children thrive at home. some mamas thrive at home. some mamas go to work and like it. some mamas go to work and hate it but do it for a vast array of reasons. some mamas, like my dear friend, have hepatitis and need to feed their happy, healthy babies formula. some people like cloth diapers. some don't. some people don't have a washer and dryer.

for me, the bottom line is: do you care about your babies and are you raising them to the best of your ability? even if your best might vary from day to day. on a suck day, your best might be to turn on the tv and plop a baby in front of it so that you don't begin to frantically scream.

i really really want to be kind. to other mamas. that's why i am on mdc. if i wanted to be a jerk to somebody, there are some really really really good targets out there. anybody see that kia ad? did you know they were keeping 2 sets of books at the upper big branch mine to keep the regulating bodies from knowing they knew how dangerous conditions for the workers were before they died in a cave in?

you know? they're trying to pass legislation in my state to make people report to physicians if they have a miscarriage, otherwise it's 'prenatal murder.' trying to make rape victims not be called victims anymore, having to defend their sexual histories in court. there's a bunch of crap going on in the world being done by some evil people, and some other mama, even if she makes an ignorant statement about daycare is NOT the problem. i wish folks would be so energetic about fighting the REAL problems.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Hildare, that's really well said.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

That is a great post, Hildare. H

And, holy cow, who is trying to pass legislation regarding rape and miscarriage as mentioned in your post? That's wacky/disturbing. Are they special interest groups lobbying for such legislation? I'm going to have to look that up.


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> That is a great post, Hildare. H
> 
> And, holy cow, who is trying to pass legislation regarding rape and miscarriage as mentioned in your post? That's wacky/disturbing. Are they special interest groups lobbying for such legislation? I'm going to have to look that up.


http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion this is US House (from Jan)-- it deals with abortion but the way that the legislators are doing it is also redefining what rape means.

and the article references both the rape redefinition and the miscarriage nonsense here an includes a link to the proposal to change the term 'victim' of rape to 'accuser.' http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia - they have since changed the wording of the miscarriage bit so that from what i can tell you just have to 'report' the miscarriage.. but it was much worse before. they are some women haters in georgia, i tell you.


----------



## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change!









But... C'est la vie.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. *Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself.* That shall never change!
> 
> ...


Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.

Wow... I'm sorry but have you totally ignored the purpose of this thread & the recent posts?! This is exactly the sort of judgment-filled commentary that feeds the mommy wars.

It's wonderful that you've listened to & responded to your child's personality & needs. And that you've figured out what makes you happy & works for your family. But why is it so difficult to embrace & support other decisions, other approaches?

Guess what? I also had a child to be a mother (whatever that means...). And guess what? I'm raising him "myself" (again... whatever that means...) even though he's been in the care of some wonderful women other than myself (not to mention his father!).

Like Hildare put it (so well) it's really not about my choices or your choices, it's about supporting women to be the best moms they can be. And being a good, even great, mom can happen in all sorts of wonderful, different ways.

Snarkiness aside & in all seriousness, what kind of conversation is needed to get through to moms like yourself who seem to not be able to help putting others down? Do you see how damaging a comment like that is?


----------



## Hannah32 (Dec 23, 2009)

Yeah, I'm raising my kid as well, despite the fact that he goes to daycare so his father and I can earn money to support our family. I'm still pretty involved in the overall process.

So to answer the question, can moms stop fighting? Probably not on the internet.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hannah32*
> 
> Yeah, I'm raising my kid as well, despite the fact that he goes to daycare so his father and I can earn money to support our family. I'm still pretty involved in the overall process.
> 
> *So to answer the question, can moms stop fighting? Probably not on the internet. *


Clearly true!


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Raising hand. Yes, raising my own kid here, even though she spends certain hours a day with other people. Just food for thought: guess my mom (who was a SAHM) stopped raising me when I started kindergarten and first grade elementary, cause let's face it, I wasn't in her care for a certain number of hours a day.

I'm only going to say this once and I'm not going to say it again: I am responsible for my child's well being, education, spirituality, physical health and a myriad of other things that go into the development of a human being. Does she have outside influences? Yes she does. Am I raising my child? Yes I am. End of story. Daddy doesn't stop being a daddy because he goes to work...no one ever questions that. Mommy doesn't stop being a mommy either.

In total agreement with t2009 and Hannah above. Can we stop this silly language that infers that raising kids requires a certain type of motherhood? It..is...so...tiresome.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion this is US House (from Jan)-- it deals with abortion but the way that the legislators are doing it is also redefining what rape means.
> 
> and the article references both the rape redefinition and the miscarriage nonsense here an includes a link to the proposal to change the term 'victim' of rape to 'accuser.' http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia - they have since changed the wording of the miscarriage bit so that from what i can tell you just have to 'report' the miscarriage.. but it was much worse before. they are some women haters in georgia, i tell you.


Thanks Hildare. The rape thing doesn't surprise me, since it is linked to termination of pregnancy, etc. The miscarriage thing, though, blows my mind, in that that type of legislation was even on the table???? Basically it would be a law that would say you are guilty until proven innocent, which goes against the very core of our criminal justice system which requires that the accused be proven guilty, not that the accused him/herself prove their innocence. The burden of proof would be on the woman to prove that she didn't murder her unborn child through miscarriage? That really disturbs me in ways that I can't even begin to describe. In addition, the idea that one would have to report a miscarriage is also troubling. There have been many instances in my life where my period was a few weeks late and then I had a heavy, heavy period. Was that a miscarriage? Under that particular law, I would need to report it given the murky standard, since the proposed standard is "from conception" instead of from confirmation of pregnancy. I've had two known miscarriages and they were devastating. It really irks me that the criminalization of this would even be on anyone's radar.

Sorry everyone, to get off track of the thread, but this stuff really riles me...more than mommy wars and anything else.


----------



## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Amen! No one ever accuses dads of "not raising their kids" because they're off working. Why is it we get the "I want to raise my own kids" thing only for moms?

It's offensive and perpetuates the very mommy wars this thread was decrying.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Raising hand. Yes, raising my own kid here, even though she spends certain hours a day with other people. Just food for thought: guess my mom (who was a SAHM) stopped raising me when I started kindergarten and first grade elementary, cause let's face it, I wasn't in her care for a certain number of hours a day.
> 
> ...


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t2009*
> 
> Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.
> 
> ...


Yes I have to agree with this...and I think it is making it so hard on yourself as a mother if you define that role only by what is largely a historical & class anomaly - an isolated woman at home with enough technology and leisure to focus on her child's development.

Not that it's not lovely to do that if you can, and you enjoy it - it is - but being a parent is so much more...solid than that. It is really amazing what attachment and love can produce. I fully support women who can and want to stay home, but I really wish they did not do it out of fear or concern that otherwise they are "not raising" their kids.

If only I could download the positivity that came into my son's and my relationship when I went from being a bit burnt out by 4 pm every day - stressed out about naps, tired out with toddler woes - to picking him up at 4, he having had a day with people who love to nurture kids and me from my job, both of us incredibly joyful to get back together and to spend those three "burnout" hours together so much more happily. That's me of course -- I am not saying other people need to work, at all -- but what it taught me is that man, my son's and my relationship is *fierce*. It is there for life. And when I was hospitalized on bedrest this winter, it was so good to know that deep in my core-- and to know that whatever other bumps in the road come along, we're *a family*.

That's why I really laugh at the wars. We human beings are so much bigger than that.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change!
> 
> ...


Well you know those of us who put our kids in daycare only had them to support the daycare industry right?


----------



## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

i don't have enough energy to participate in the "mama wars" but i read them with fascination, perhaps put in a short post like this one. a lot of things are said that validate my own opinions, which of course feels good. a lot of things are said that i vehemently disagree with, which causes me to both question and appreciate my own unique parenting skills. a lot of things are said make me feel clueless, so i need to google or wiki them and i end up learning a ton of valuable information.

i believe if you have a large group of concerned women arguing over every little thing concerning their body and their kids, it means there is a large group of children that are *intensely* loved and cared for.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Sorry everyone, to get off track of the thread, but this stuff really riles me...more than mommy wars and anything else.


No, you're right. That stuff is shocking and infuriating.

Quote:


> i believe if you have a large group of concerned women arguing over every little thing concerning their body and their kids, it means there is a large group of children that are *intensely* loved and cared for.


Good take on it.


----------



## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DariusMom*
> 
> Amen! No one ever accuses dads of "not raising their kids" because they're off working. Why is it we get the "I want to raise my own kids" thing only for moms?
> 
> It's offensive and perpetuates the very mommy wars this thread was decrying.


I have heard that said about dads who are uninvolved, actually. Not simply because they're working at all, but when they work long hours/have weeks-long business trips, or go out doing leisure activities sans kids atop crazy work schedules. But you're right, 98% of that complaint falls on moms.

Anyway, I've worked, I've SAH. We eat some junk food and fast food, but we're also vegetarian. I had one kid with horrible childhood cavities and one without (the better teeth kid was born later and ate probably more junk food, actually. He didn't snack all day long, nurse all night long, and has different teeth structure though). I did delayed vaxes. I cloth diapered one her whole diapering life and one about half (he peed through everything I could put together, and with hospital/deaths in the extended family, it was too chaotic for me to continue trying to find a cloth solution). I left them for work with babysitters, at ages some people think are horrible (4 months)... and then overnight with relatives at ages some people think are way too long (3 years)... I yell, though I try not to. I negotiate sometimes but am more disciplinarian than most I see here. And yet, among my in laws, I get the attitude that I am too soft because I don't spank nor CIO. I don't circ. I do some pressured sports in a serious, structured way. I homeschool in a relaxed but structured fashion, and I expect excellent test scores and work.

I am fairly confident in the choices I've made. I don't allow CIO in my home nor stay with people doing CIO. I don't particularly care if they do it, as that doesn't actually affect me or my kids. I don't care if they circ. I don't care if they cloth diaper. I don't care if they do pretty much anything with their own kids unless it directly affects my own. Otherwise, do what you want. I happen to think that what I'm doing is the best for my kids, or at least the best that I can do, but not only do I not have anyone else's kids, but I am not them with their own temperament and quirks.


----------



## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t2009*
> 
> Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that her statement was offensive, but I think what SAHMs are trying to say when they say this is "I love spending all day with my children and meeting their daily needs myself." Honestly, some women would love to do this and can't, and some would hate to do it and would prefer to work at something else. (SAHMs are doing work too, despite not getting paid for their efforts.)


----------



## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.

Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war." About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EviesMom*
> 
> I agree with you that her statement was offensive, but *I think what SAHMs are trying to say when they say this is "I love spending all day with my children and meeting their daily needs myself."* Honestly, some women would love to do this and can't, and some would hate to do it and would prefer to work at something else. (SAHMs are doing work too, despite not getting paid for their efforts.)


That's totally fine & good (& I made the point in my prior post that I thought it was great that Tillymonster has figured out how to make her situation work for her & her family) but that's not what she said. Yes, maybe that's what she meant but the fact is that putting it the way she did has a certain cultural relevance in this context that makes it condescending & insulting.

(And there's no doubt -- I don't think anyone's even hinted at it -- that SAHMs are doing real work.)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.
> 
> Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. *But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war."* About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do.


I'm sorry your mother was so terrible & judgmental of others. And I'm sorry that you've felt judged yourself. But I disagree with the bolded above -- It's been (at least one) SAHM here who's been slinging the insults & I haven't noticed one WOHM doing so. Of course the insults go both ways. But it doesn't really matter who started it -- it matters more that we can figure out how to speak on the same level & support each other. As PPs have said there's so many other things worth fighting over & this isn't one of them.

Someone upstream said that the mommy wars at least show that all these women care about all these children. That may be true to a point, but it's also a sort of petty war that doesn't really require much of an investment in children (individual or as a group). If women joined forces to fight the real fights (things like Hildare pointed out, real maternity leave for all WOHMs, some tax credit or other monetary recognition for the work SAHMs do every day, etc.) it would be a better place for families. The divisions create a fatal disconnect (politically) so that WOHMs don't care much what happens to SAHMs & vice versa & nothing changes. And everyone's stretched thin, so the only way to institute changes is to work together. I'm still trying to figure this piece out IRL.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.
> 
> Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. *But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war."* About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do.


I tend to disagree with the bolded part. While I feel embarrassed that there may have been working moms in your life who disparaged your choice to SAH, I don't think working moms can be blamed for starting the so-called war. I agree with what Mandalamama said above, that the mommy wars are really about moms who actually care about their children (WOH or SAH) and I think there is an underlying defensiveness with people who feel they are doing the best thing that they can for their families and emotions tend to run high on both fronts. I don't count the categories of people who just don't care or who are not invested in the outcome of their children. Those people are not, IMO, part of the mommy wars. I think I'm pretty representative of the professional class of working moms, and honestly, I don't have time to worry about whether SAHMs are doing it better or worse than me, as I'm sure that SAHMs don't have the time or energy to worry about one-upping me. My insecurities are about myself. I don't need to gage myself against the SAHM next door. I think my situation is pretty common. If there are working moms dissing SAHMs for the well-thought-out choices that they make for their families, than I have lost a lot of respect for those particular moms. And, I'll say so and confront them. But I can't make blanket statements about either group, because it is all too subjective.

But from my observation over the years, the slinging of shots is a two way street. No one group is the bad guy here. I'm sure that all of us have had underlying resentments and biases no matter our choice or station.


----------



## MamaMunchkin (Feb 3, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> *I don't count the categories of people who just don't care or who are not invested in the outcome of their children. Those people are not, IMO, part of the mommy wars. *


I'd rephrase that if I were you ...







... it can be read to imply if you (general) don't care about the mommy wars, then you don't care about your children. Or, if you don't care about your children, then you don't care about mommy wars. There's something upstream about something similar.

Personally, in my own life, I happen to care very deeply about my children but don't care in the least about the mommy war (it doesn't bother me much but I read and follow to learn more). I probably am not the only one. No, I am not upset with what you said, but someone else might. I think they can be mutually exclusive - no data to back it up, but I wouldn't discount all possiblities quite yet, which are:

- care about mommy wars, care about children

- don't care about wars, care about children

- care about wars, don't care about children

- don't care about wars, don't care about children

Another possible spin off? What does it mean if you don't care about the mommy wars? Are you a good/bad parent or something? This is getting fun ...







...


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DariusMom*
> 
> Amen! No one ever accuses dads of "not raising their kids" because they're off working. Why is it we get the "I want to raise my own kids" thing only for moms?
> 
> ...


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EviesMom*
> 
> I have heard that said about dads who are uninvolved, actually. Not simply because they're working at all, but when they work long hours/have weeks-long business trips, or go out doing leisure activities sans kids atop crazy work schedules. But you're right, 98% of that complaint falls on moms.


Some of why we are so hard on each other comes down to gender issues. Men are not so hard on themselves or each other as far as I can tell. Mommy wars might be a feminist issue.

Culturally, aren't women either born or programmed to be more socially oriented than males? Perhaps that is why we socially pick each other apart?

I do think many (and I definitely include myself in this) have to think things through before we write. We say things that really aren't correct. Finger fly faster than the brain. On the flip side though (and I have seen this a lot lately On MDC) people get upset over perceived judgement that is not really there. If I say I am crunchy because I grow my own veg, it really isn't a judgement against those who pick up their veg from the supermarkets. I don't think we should become so afraid of hurting someones sensitivities that we cannot express an opinion.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MamaMunchkin*
> 
> I'd rephrase that if I were you ...
> 
> ...


The first part of your comment is a brain twister!







I suppose it could mean that if you (general you) don't care about the mommy wars, then you must not care about your children?

To clarify, I didn't mean that. I guess what I was inartfully trying to say is that in my observation, the people who don't give a flying hoot about parenting probably aren't as likely to be engaged in the mommy wars. Just my take on it, but the mommy wars seem to be about parents desparately trying to justify their choices and defend their choices. I think a lot of this arises out of insecurity on all sides. People don't want to be in a position where they feel bad about their choices and about parenting, because let's face it, parenting is a huge and daunting task! Joyful, yes. Hard, you bet. Even the most secure among us have the occassional doubt as to if what we are doing is right.

Regarding the question of people who don't care about the mommy wars and whether they are good parents? Maybe that is a third group out there and they should be admired for ploughing ahead with proverbial blinders, confident in their choices, making a real effort to do what is best for their kids. I'd like to count myself as one of those people because I'd like to think that whatever other people say doesn't really bother me, and that I feel secure in my choices. I'll be the first to admit, however, that I can get caught up in the drama on certian issues. I wish I could say with confidence that I don't care, and wish that any energy could be directed at real issues that hurt women and children and families.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.
> 
> Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. *But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war."* About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do.


I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on. I see so many comments on MDC about dumping kids in daycare, daycare raising your kids, and on and on. I very rarely, at least on MDC, see wohm bashing on sahm. I'm not a sahm, so obviously I don't hear the same comments that you probably do. I do think saying someone is having daycare raise their children is one of the most insulting things I've ever heard as a working mom.

I've never stayed home with my kids, except for maternity leaves. And I personally, have never said one word against sahms.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> I do think saying someone is having daycare raise their children is one of the most insulting things I've ever heard as a working mom.


I think parents are responsible for their children and childcare choices.

I do think that almost everyone has help in raising their children. It takes a village and all that. Some of us use/need/want more help than others. I know I have had help raising my children.

I think there is a line at which a parent can no longer said to be the primary rearer of their children. I do think time spent with children and holding responsibility for their care comes into play. I absolutely think almost all working parents are the primary raisers of their children.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Just using this thread as an example. SAHM slinging insults...7. WOHM slinging insults....1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama* 

Personally, I cant imagine being away from my kid for that many hours a week, but a lot of women make a lot of money and can afford to send their kids to good schools and provide a stable financial situation (which we also dont have).



> My neighboor wants to raise a kid who can get a good job, afford a nice apartment in the city, marry a well off man (which is why she should not eat sweet rolls:eyesroll ) and have lots of little babies (as long as they arent with a black man) for her to tell they are getting too fat too. We have totally different priorities. She works outside the home, sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and sends them to grandma's on the weekend. She spends just enough time with them to tell them everything they are doing wrong.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *motherhendoula*
> 
> by the 90's it was simply assumed Mom was going back to work as most couples need two incomes to pay their mortgage, two cars, retirement fund, college fund, student loan and credit card debts.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I SAH because its my priority. I'd rather be with my kid than making money. I dont want to teach my child that money is super important. We have chosen to live with less money than most people. We are very frugal. I dont buy brand new clothing often, I dont drive a new car, I dont really go out often, so we dont spend a whole lot of money.I'd rather spend my time gardening, making things from scratch , thrift store shopping, and figuring out ways to be thrifty than going to work for someone else while someone else is watching my kid. I want my life to belong to me 100%, not to my employer or my childcare provider. Yes, we live month to month right now.


The one derogatory post towards sahms in this thread.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> I am not talking about people who are having "rough time". I am all for paying for it. Better than for bombs I am talking about people who on purposely decide to go on welfare because they think that being a SAHM allows them to be a better parent. Why should I pay for that? It is choice.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> I was expressing my personal thoughts, which are judgements, because we all have them! Those of us who parent mindfully have chosen a certain parenting style for a reason and for some of us, that is counter culture.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change!


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war."


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Is some of the examples I agree with you, and in some I really just do not see it. They are expressing an opinion/telling an anecdote and using "I" statements.

Do you think it is possible you are sensitive to seeing judgement where little is? Or maybe I have blinders on, lol.

Either way - the bottom line is what to do about it.

The first step is seeking understanding. People sometimes do not think before the write.

The second is trying to educate - it may work and it may not, but I do know I have had some ideas change through reading.

On daycare for example (which I have used from time to time) , I absolutely felt like I was raising my children! I was responsible for finding the daycare, paying the daycare, ensuring kids were dropped off and picked up at the right time and they had everything the daycare prescribed. I was responsible if anything went wrong (and things do) to either fix the situation or find a new care provider. I was the one who had to stay home if my child got sick (and worried about said sick child). Indeed everything parents do in raising children- which goes well beyond just giving care, I did. Oh, and I gave care to for the hours I was home.

The last thing is some people really do hold different ideas than you. Some of them may be insulting. That is life and it happens IRL too. I tend to think most insulting statements come down to:

a) perception of the hearer

b) speaking without thinking

c) ignorance/lack of life experience.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Of course I'm sensitive to it. There's only so many times you can be blasted for working and not raising your own kids before you do get sensitive to it.

I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare. I do it." and it would offend sahms though I used all those "I" statements.


----------



## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> Of course I'm sensitive to it. There's only so many times you can be blasted for working and not raising your own kids before you do get sensitive to it.
> 
> *I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare. I do it." and it would offend sahms though I used all those "I" statements.*


Exactly. It's sort of like "Well . . . I was just expressing my own personal opinion" is a get out of jail free card. Sure, we all have opinions and feelings. Not all of those are "nice" and many of them are judgmental. But just own the judgment rather than implying that the person who is offended shouldn't be because, after all, it's just your opinion. I mean, if I said, "Well . .. it's just my opinion, but you're a lazy slob who is wasting your education and not actively contributing to society except by raising brats who have no manners" the person would (and should) be offended.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare. I do it." and it would offend sahms though I used all those "I" statements.


People do say it - on MDC - all the time. They sometimes leave out qualifying words like "all" though.

I do think people should word things carefully and think before they write - but when it comes down to it, I am more interested in hearing others opinions and what works for them, than worrying about whether or not I inadvertantly offend someone.

I should be able to say "I use a a stroller rather than a baby carrier" and not worry about offending the baby carriers. I should be able to say "I think breast is best in general" without offending those who use formula.

It would be sad if MDC became so concerned with offending people and being perceived as being judgmental that we were afraid of expressing opinions in a respectful way.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> People do say it - on MDC - all the time. They sometimes leave out qualifying words like "all" though.


Like I said above, it all depends on what side of the fence you're on. I, personally, don't see that from wohms nearly as much as they daycare crap I hear from sahms. On MDC, working moms are by far in the minority.

And you can blame my perception of what was said all you want. No matter how you say it, any insinuation that a mother, because she chooses to work, isn't raising her own kids is insulting.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> Like I said above, it all depends on what side of the fence you're on. I, personally, don't see that from wohms nearly as much as they daycare crap I hear from sahms. On MDC, working moms are by far in the minority.


Heck, I hear it from SAHM (Quote: I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare) Women are hard on each other across the board.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Heck, I hear it from SAHM (Quote: I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare) Women are hard on each other across the board.


I have to agree with this. On here at least, I have seen a bit of judgment (and if not judgment, competition) between SAHMs themselves regarding orderly houses, cooking from scratch, welfare, etc. I only observe this because I think these boards tend to be SAHM-heavy and I can't help but notice it. But again, is it because women in general are hard on each other, no matter what the situation? I think so. Is it some kind of evolutionary / survival of the fittest trait that we can't rid ourselves of?

Back to the issue of "raising my own kids": after reading some of the responses here, I have to ask myself, what does 'raise' mean? I have my own definition of what raising a child is, and of course it is not going to mesh with someone's definition, so therein I think is the problem. The definition itself. I take a more broad approach: DH and I brought this child into the world, we're responsible for her safety, well-being and path to adulthood. I'm utlimately responsible for her every move and flub-up, for her health and for her emotional and spiritual well-being while she is a minor. I'm more than open to outside influences and the time she spends with others, but at the end of the day, DH and I are the ones who are responsible for and need to provide her with the love, security and wherewithal to become a confident, and hopefully happy, adult. I mean, I think there is a certain fear attached to the definition of raising kids, and that by relinquishing some control over your child, you fear that you are not raising them. Just my take on it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CatsCradle*
> 
> Back to the issue of "raising my own kids": after reading some of the responses here, I have to ask myself, what does 'raise' mean? I have my own definition of what raising a child is, and of course it is not going to mesh with someone's definition, so therein I think is the problem. The definition itself.
> 
> ...


The judgmentalism sucks. It really does. And, I get being over-sensitive to comments people make. I can remember a few as a WOHM that made me want to hit someone. But, I also think we need to be careful not to project people's comments about their own parenting decisions onto ours. Someone can feel that being a SAHM would be mind-numbing and unproductive for themselves, without necessarily thinking that SAHMs, in general, are braindead (here!) and unproductive. Someone can feel that being a WOHM means losing out on too much of their own children's lives, without thinking that WOHMs are all neglectful, emotionally absent parents. I think the asinine Mommy Wars would lose a lot of fuel if we could avoid thinking that other people's decisions about their own families are a judgment on our own choices or circumstances.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> Of course I'm sensitive to it. There's only so many times you can be blasted for working and not raising your own kids before you do get sensitive to it.


i often wonder why WOHM means "not raising your own kids." doesn't it just mean "raising your kids in a system you choose?" working moms have to choose exactly what kind of child care they want, they have to set rules and boundaries ensuring the best care for their kids, they have to enforce them, and they have to be flexible and change things around whenever needed.

i'm stuck at home by disabilities but i still enlist the help of other people, not all of them mothers. i'm just really happy my daughter gets along so well with so many people. if i ever get a chance to part-time WOH and it pays enough over the child care costs, you better believe i am going to jump at it! i know myself, my self-esteem is not 100% tied up in my parenting skills, i want and need to achieve many other things in my life, i also feel a deep need to lead by example and teach my daughter a good work ethic. i absolutely loved going to work with my mom when she waitressed for a while. we didn't need the money, she just felt like working. i was *so* proud watching her! very happy memories, munching a PB&J and watching her move around with a loaded tray yet she was so graceful! i was just as proud when she worked doing insurance transcription when i was a teen, everyone in her office knew me and i adored making them stuff to decorate their work stations. the best part was that my mom always included me in her life as much as she could. she also included me in all her volunteer work from an early age, i learned a ton of skills i never would have learned in school. so many thanks to my mom!









i took that experience with me, and when i was raising my 3 step-kids, i was the editor of a fairly large newspaper and i worked it out so they spent the last 30 minutes of every day with me at the office. 2 were in school and after-school care, one was in preschool. i'd go pick them up and bring them into the office with me. they got to meet so many interesting people, to see people concentrating on things, doing tasks, the way things were organized. it really helped them at home! i was also able to mix in some education as well by "assigning" them articles to make their own family newspaper. one of the best times of my life, looking back. they have SOs and kids and jobs now, and seem really happy.

that being said, if they were younger than 3 at the time i began parenting them, i would have had to work out a completely different style of working and parenting. i think i would have worked at the motel next to our apartment complex, cleaning rooms, so they could come with me and help out if they wanted. i never cared where i worked, the point is to do good work and find happiness in it! again, major thanks to my mom. i really worry how my daughter is going to learn to work when she grows up, so i make sure to engage people who are at work, get to know them, let her ask questions, etc. i'm trying desperately to finish a book, she watches me working, makes suggestions, i've shown her how hard it's going to be to get published, how i might have to publish it myself as an e-book, how would we get the word out about the book, etc. she's already thinking up all sorts of ideas! and she's working on a book of her own, grins.

if i worked i would have to change my parenting style , but it would still be my parenting style, just as carefully thought out and agonized over as my SAHM style. thank goodness i have MDC and many other sources to learn what i need to know to make informed decisions!

like i said before, MDC has this huge number of mamas who are intensely invested in their unique parenting skills, and i don't see the "wars" as a bad thing at all. (although individuals do get their feelings hurt and apologies are always nice.) i see it as more and more information getting out there for women to make more informed choices, and surely one of the benefits is all the kids involved are being intensely loved and cared for. i agonized just as hard over which formula i had to choose for my 12-hour pump-n-dump from medication that affected my girl (until i "doubled my production" *that still cracks me up!*) as i agonized over learning how to breastfeed comfortably, safely and effectively.

i just can't see the warriors logging off and not caring about their kids, you know?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I think that for me, the defensive/war-like attitude started out as a means of reassuring myself that I really could mother my child the way my heart told me to, and that no one else had the least bit of a right to pull the rug out from under my baby and me and force me to formula feed, go to work, put her in a crib, etcetera.

I still recall my best friend (who at that time had no kids) telling me while I was pregnant with dd1 that she really hoped that I'd be able to breastfeed like I wanted to, but it doesn't always work out for everyone...so I burrowed myself into the LLL book and told myself that it works out for all but a tiny fraction of a percent of the women who really want it "bad enough." This didn't start out as an attack on women who said they weren't able to breastfeed, it really just started out as a way to reassure myself that *I* could mother the way that I wanted to, in a world where it did indeed seem true that, as my friend said, so many of the women who want to breastfeed, or want natural child birth, or want to stay home with their children, just have the rug jerked out from under them and have to go with the mainstream flow...

The best way to stop the wars is to reach the place of feeling safe within ourselves. Our security doesn't come from having the perfect circumstances, but from being plugged into the Love that is the energy flowing through all of us and the whole universe. I do need to earn an income now, and my children and I are still attached. Although I was able to breastfeed my children until they weaned themselves, I'm sure we would have found a way to stay plugged into Love even if that particular rug had been pulled out from under us.

Let's just settle down into ourselves and find security (I mean, those who haven't already...I realize that some of you probably have, but of course it's a continual process). And then we'll be able to talk about all this stuff without attacking one another.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

StormBride: when I refer to fear about not raising your own kids, my experience and observations come from right here on MDC, where moms on the WOM forums fear that they are doing their kids a disservice in not being with their children 24/7. I personally don't feel that fear, but I see it over and over again in comments and sometimes IRL and on other forums. Some people feel guilty for working, and one of the elements of that guilt is that they are not raising their children according to accepted practices, whatever that may be. They feel conflicted about their choices, rather real or perceived. They enjoy their OHW and are validated by it, or they need to work and have no other choice. Some people accept those conditions and are happy with them. But, just because some people feel confident that they are raising or not raising their children, doesn't mean that there are people out there who have incredible doubts and are seeking validation for their choices. People are bombarded with concepts of what is 'right' so it it is not a stretch that they have fear about if what they are doing is good or right. Some of us may not feel it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't a real issue for others out there.

We can personalize the issues as much as we want and provide all the subjective experiences that we want here, but there is a cultural acceptance, at least in the U.S., that if you work you are not raising your children. I hear it over and over and over again. A particular comment that was made on the NY Times parenting blog yesterday was: "If you don't want to stay home and raise your children, why have them?" That comment got a lot of thumbs-up. I think there is an underlying religious bias in the U.S. that mothers have a duty to devout their whole selves to the raising of children, and anything beyond that is suspect. Now maybe that is a minority view, but the minority view seems to get a lot of press here. Unfortunately this is the fodder of talk show hosts and politicians seeking to solidify their base. It makes it hard for the rest of us who make other choices or who are forced to take other routes. Despite our random personal feelings about certain issues, I think there is still a large portion of the population who have real doubts and fears, otherwise this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. It rubs off on WOMs who buy into the idea that because they work, they are not raising their kids and therefore are not doing the best they can. They fear that their kids will suffer as a result.

Sorry, I kept editing this post but kept getting off the computer.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes, I definitely feel also that there is a general tenor on MDC that suggests SAHMing is the ideal and WOHMs fall short. Even a lot of the WOHMs on the board seem to buy into it. There's a general acceptance of statements suggesting that any amount of care by others-than-mom is necessarily suboptimal.

I honestly just don't feel this is true. I actually think it is really good for my kid to experience a range of loving caregivers. Yes, it is true that others (first my awesome MIL and now an awesome Montessori program) are helping me to raise my child. That is totally fine with me. My MIL is a baby whisperer - she is much more experienced, patient, and attuned than I am - and I love that my DD had an opportunity to develop a close and loving relationship with her. The Montessori has taught her things that I would never have thought to teach her, or known how. She would have been a total wild-child if it had been just her and me 24/7. Montessori taught her to say please and thank you, be patient, negotiate politely with others for things that she needs, etc. She comes home with exciting things to tell me about her day and her friends and teachers. Even if I did not work, my ideal for her would still be for her to attend the Montessori - maybe more like 4 hours per day rather than the 6-7 she does now, but those extra 2-3 hours are a pretty minimal concession that allow me to draw a FT salary and benefits. I certainly do not think she would be best off home alone with me all day. She'd be bored out of her mind.

I feel this way about homeschooling also. I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people view homeschooling as an ideal and public schooling as an inferior option. I think it would be insulting to teachers who have made education their life's mission to suggest that I could do their job as well as they can. Additionally, there is socialization to the culture to consider. We live in a culture where the norm is for people to work and attend school outside the home, and I want her to be comfortable with that norm.

I feel the Continuum Concept stuff has a lot of value but the fact is that we don't live in this 'ideal' culture where a tight community supports group childrearing. We just don't, and I don't feel that mom-alone-with-kid(s)-all-day approximates that ideal at all. I do feel that, given the constraints of modern Western society, some level of daily exposure to a stable group setting is better for my child than being alone with mom 24/7.


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## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t2009*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> I feel this way about homeschooling also. I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people view homeschooling as an ideal and public schooling as an inferior option. I think it would be insulting to teachers who have made education their life's mission to suggest that I could do their job as well as they can. Additionally, there is socialization to the culture to consider. We live in a culture where the norm is for people to work and attend school outside the home, and I want her to be comfortable with that norm.


Well I hold a California Teaching Credential so I'm pretty sure I can do the job as well as the other people who went through the same program as me. 

I'm only three years into this parenting journey but I find that a lot of my positions have radically changed. I have spent a lot of money and effort trying to woo my second child into drinking formula because I loathe nursing with the fire of a thousand suns. But I nursed my older daughter till she was three and tandem nursed through a pregnancy. In retrospect that was a very bad decision for me. But I bought into guilt that I would harm my kids if I weaned prematurely.







I kind of feel like I am doing a lot more damage to all of us by having to sit here gritting my teeth (I've cracked two so far and my dentist is very upset with me) because I hate nursing so much I want to be violent. But Breast Is Best! Why don't I care about my babies enough to LOVE NURSING?!?! Real life is more complicated than just whether or not breast milk is "better" than formula. From a physiological standpoint it is healthier. Is it really better that when my daughter wants to snuggle me I grit my teeth and wince and try to pull away from her because I'm afraid she will want to nurse again? Really?

My personal favorite is when people say that people get upset because they aren't secure in their decisions. If they were really secure they wouldn't care about the judgment. I wish that were true. I'm nursing and I @#[email protected]#$#@ hate it. I'm not secure in this decision. I wish she would drink formula. Yet I know it is the healthiest food choice. So?

And oh man stay at home moms are harsh on other stay at home moms. I'm a stay at home mom. I'm moving my best friend in because I just can't do this 100% of the time child raising thing. I am literally suicidal. But I wouldn't be able to be a better mom if I had a job and sent them to daycare. I would be a much worse mother. It's interesting how sometimes parenting feels like just trying to get through every nightmarish day. I truly didn't understand that it would be this hard. And I am so privileged it isn't funny. I can't participate in the Mommy Wars because if someone gets through the day without her kids being abused in any way, everyone has enough* to eat (I'm not going to quibble about what), and the mom can kiss her kids on the heads and say "I love you" with sincerity... that's a good mom.

*There are some mothers living in poverty who are not able to feed their children adequately for a wide variety of reasons. For all of them, I wish we had a better safety net. I don't know many mothers with hungry children who are happy about it. If you are struggling as hard as possible and your kids still know hunger, send me a PM. I will mail you giftcards for grocery stores. I am absolutely serious. If your village has failed you I want to help.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.


Here's the deal. The phrase "Raising my own children" is often thrown at working mothers by SAHMs -- who are often in those very same "Mean girls who grew up" cliques. And you usually hear it with a little more venom, as in "Daycare? *I* could never do THAT. WHY did you even have CHILDREN if you didn't want to raise them YOURSELF?"

I was once told I couldn't join a local moms group. Because I worked part time. Because I could make friends at work and besides, *they* were a child-focused group and felt working moms were insufficiently child-focused. THAT is "Mean Girls who Grew Up."


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.


fwiw - MDC, for a very long time, had fairly strict moderation. I think a lot of people got their feelings hurt over legitimate slights, but were afraid to say anything for fear of getting warnings, etc.

The moderation has lessened in the last 6 weeks or so - so a lot of people are working out issues at the moment (like more mainstream ideas being judged). I think MDC is in a bit of a transition period and we will see what the vibe is like in a little bit. It is good people are now able to express thing they felt they could not before.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Another thought: Some of the mommy wars on MDC are elitist.

I have written posts before where individual words or phrases were jumped upon. I have often felt that if I wrote better, I would convey my ideas better, and there would be less pouncing in a sort-of "gotcha!" way. It is so annoying - if do not remember to qualify all statements with word like "some" or "this worked for me", etc, etc...I will be pounced on. I have seen it again and again.

Elitism comes into play because there are noobs who do not know the unwritten rules of posting. There are people who do not write as well as others. People get pounced on, not because they are clearly judgemental, but because they wrote or picked their words poorly.

I have seen posters say they do not participate because they do not feel they can convey their feeling articulately enough.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I went through graduate school in English literature. My posts are ripped apart regularly. I'm not sure that anyone is articulate enough to avoid being flamed on the internet.


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## Brandybutter (Jun 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> fwiw - MDC, for a very long time, had fairly strict moderation. I think a lot of people got their feelings hurt over legitimate slights, but were afraid to say anything for fear of getting warnings, etc.
> 
> The moderation has lessened in the last 6 weeks or so - so a lot of people are working out issues at the moment (like more mainstream ideas being judged). I think MDC is in a bit of a transition period and we will see what the vibe is like in a little bit. It is good people are now able to express thing they felt they could not before.


Well, I considered closing my new account here too after seeing the attacks to my post. I'm not liking the vibe here, but have found other forums to be more pleasant. I'm sticking with "Toddlers"


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> Yes, I definitely feel also that there is a general tenor on MDC that suggests SAHMing is the ideal and WOHMs fall short. Even a lot of the WOHMs on the board seem to buy into it. There's a general acceptance of statements suggesting that any amount of care by others-than-mom is necessarily suboptimal.
> 
> ...


Yeah that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brandybutter*
> 
> Well, I considered closing my new account here too after seeing the attacks to my post. I'm not liking the vibe here, but have found other forums to be more pleasant. I'm sticking with "Toddlers"


The thing about internet forums is that there are so many people who've made so many different decisions. If you aren't able to be respectful about that, you will hear about it.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> qualify all statements with word like "some" or "this worked for me",


Eh. I do that with many of my posts. Especially with 'some' versus 'all'. There aren't a lot of absolutes in life. Red flags go up in my mind when someone says/implies this is the way it is all the time. For example, in regards to day care, formula, breast milk, working mothers, attachment, bonding, doctors, midwives, western medicine. Television. Men.









I agree with Rightkindofme, some people are going to nit pick, regardless. But especially in a setting like this, words matter. Our words reflect our attitudes. I don't think it's about writing skills, it's about logic. And about reflecting consideration for the other people in the conversation, respectfully acknowledging that their life experience may be different from my own.

Sometimes it's more work for me to post like that.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> I went through graduate school in English literature. My posts are ripped apart regularly. I'm not sure that anyone is articulate enough to avoid being flamed on the internet.


lol.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> I agree with Rightkindofme, some people are going to nit pick, regardless. But especially in a setting like this, words matter. Our words reflect our attitudes. I don't think it's about writing skills, it's about logic. And about reflecting consideration for the other people in the conversation, respectfully acknowledging that their life experience may be different from my own.
> 
> Sometimes it's more work for me to post like that.










I had to take a break from this thread because it seemed to me a lot of excuses flying for why we can't talk to each other about this issue in a civilized manner. Yes, we all make different choices, we are or aren't interested in the "mommy wars," some people are more sensitive than others, some people don't think before they type, some people are nit-picky, "it's just my experience/opinion/whatever," etc. But figuring out how to talk with each other regardless of our own individual experiences is (I think) the whole point of this thread.

Tillymonster: I truly did not mean to offend you & I hope you don't erase your account. But while I understand you were trying to commiserate with the OP, her whole intent with this thread (at least how I read it) was to figure out a way to communicate with & support each other, regardless of the different choices we each make.

She wrote in that OP: "We all do things differently, but something I have noticed lately is we are all going after each other! I am a mama who thought that when I had a kid, she would be bottle fed and I would go straight back to work. Much to my amazement, I breastfed until my little one was a year old and quit my job as a political consultant. I get flack from working moms, but on the flip side, I hear stay-at-home mama's go after the working ones. What is happening here?"

To me, that means picking our words carefully & trying to see things from a number of different points of view. In my view, your earlier post did just the opposite: By using language that has a very particular resonance, you alienated the WOHMs on here instead of addressing the OP's issue. IRL would you ever tell someone face to face (a WOHM especially) that you chose to SAH because you had children to be a mother? The way you put it in your post insinuated that if a mom chooses to WOH then she clearly does not want to be a mom (or worse, isn't capable of being a mom). Ditto for your other comment about "raising your own kids." That language puts you in one camp that's opposed to another camp -- and contributes to the "mommy wars."

Am I being nit-picky? Yeah. But when we're talking about the mommy wars (a battle that's totally created through language & that can be diffused through language) I'd say we have to be nit-picky if we want to talk to each other rather than over each other. And I'd say I'm usually not sensitive to these types of comments, so I don't go around MDC looking for SAHMs who make slightly disparaging comments about WOHMs & then pounce -- I have a thick skin & other more pressing things to do. But, I think these types of comments are the entire reason for this thread, so that's why I'm commenting on them here.

I think the real thing about the mommy wars is that we all get so caught up in our own experiences of motherhood (because they are so powerful & dear to us!) that we tend to forget how to think about others' experiences ("walk in their shoes"). And in parenting discussion, I've found (IRL & here) that my experiences are only useful to the point that they don't put others down. It's great that on MDC we can find other parents who share our own preferences, but we also are a diverse group -- there's a lot to learn from others who do it differently & we also have to work at not creating our own "mommy wars." I learn things on here all the time & I'm also humbled a lot.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

This book had a lot of great insights into the mommy wars: http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Madness-Motherhood-Age-Anxiety/dp/1573223042

I will try to summarize...basically in the past couple decades motherhood has become "professionalized." There's a lot of factors that go into it...there are more highly educated, professionally successful women around than ever before. These women have kids and some want to stay home, but they are not the type to sit around and eat bonbons...if they are going to be SAHM they will make a project of it. That kind of idea drives the culture of parenting today - think of how much more laid-back parenting was when we grew up. The bar for parenting becomes high, and then society in general fails to support families and parents, so you get a lot of anxious parents who feel they are underperforming. It's sort of a perfect storm for mommy wars, and parental anxiety only gets reinforced by experts and marketers who are totally happy to capitalize on parental anxiety and make a buck


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nina_yyc*
> 
> This book had a lot of great insights into the mommy wars: http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Madness-Motherhood-Age-Anxiety/dp/1573223042
> 
> I will try to summarize...basically in the past couple decades motherhood has become "professionalized." There's a lot of factors that go into it...there are more highly educated, professionally successful women around than ever before. These women have kids and some want to stay home, *but they are not the type to sit around and eat bonbons*...if they are going to be SAHM they will make a project of it. That kind of idea drives the culture of parenting today - think of how much more laid-back parenting was when we grew up.


To the bolded...are you serious? I grew up in the early 70s when a lot of women were SAHMs. I actually don't remember any women with children that worked. I'm sure there were some, but the vast majority of kids in my neighbourhood, and in the social circles (not "highly educated, professionaly successful people, by and large - we were a blue collar family, with blue collar friends - heck, when I was growing up, my mom had one year of university, and dad's a high school dropout) my parents moved in, had a SAHM. Not one of those women were "the

type to sit around and eat bonbons". How unbelievably insulting.

I don't really remember any Mommy Wars among mom and her friends. Mind you, the SAHM vs. WOHM thing wouldn't have come up, because none of them WOH, except maybe occasional part-time jobs for pocket money, once the kids were in school.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I don't really remember any Mommy Wars among mom and her friends. Mind you, the SAHM vs. WOHM thing wouldn't have come up, because none of them WOH, except maybe occasional part-time jobs for pocket money, once the kids were in school.


When I was in grade 4. they started a lunch programme at my school - for the Very First Time, kids could bring their lunches! To school! And eat them at school!

There were picketers outside protesting. Because all good moms were to be home at the noon hour providing a nutritious hot meal.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *t2009*
> 
> I think the real thing about the mommy wars is that we all get so caught up in our own experiences of motherhood (because they are so powerful & dear to us!) that we tend to forget how to think about others' experiences ("walk in their shoes"). And in parenting discussion, I've found (IRL & here) that my experiences are only useful to the point that they don't put others down. It's great that on MDC we can find other parents who share our own preferences, but we also are a diverse group -- there's a lot to learn from others who do it differently & we also have to work at not creating our own "mommy wars." I learn things on here all the time & I'm also humbled a lot.


I came onto MDC while pregnant with my first and I had a lot of ideas that I held very strongly. Parenting hasn't gone how I thought it would. Not any of it. It's been a lot harder than I thought. My friends who had kids at the same time... same story. Some of them work full-time, some part-time, some stay home. All of us have had better and worse experiences than we expected. I've learned a lot from hearing about their experiences. One friend used to pressure me constantly to go back to work, probably because it would validate her life choices. I adamantly explained why that was not a good choice *for me* many many times and after seeing a lot more about my parenting journey she has come to agree that I am making the right choices *for me*. Our lives still look totally different. I started out thinking "why did she bother to have kids when she doesn't want to raise them" and I have come to understand that if she was home full time she would have significantly more problems than she has as a working parent because her personality/life is totally different.

Absolute statements hurt people because we personalize what we read. That's a human trait. At this point I feel like people who have had things go how they want them to are very lucky. If you brag about how it is because you "did everything right" I want to fling a big pile of monkey poo at you. So did I. That doesn't mean everything turned out how I wanted them to.







And it's not because I don't try hard enough. I swear to G-d. I try and try and try and things still go horribly wrong. Life works that way sometimes. You pick up the pieces and you move on. Even if you (generic you) don't mean to be hurtful, sometimes you are. That's how communication works. If you genuinely didn't mean it badly, say that.

I think that part of the Mommy Wars is that people are speaking from their privilege. That's not evil. People aren't terrible for having privilege. But it's important to acknowledge that you have it. You are not more "deserving" than other people because you had x, y, or z happen. Which isn't to say that folks should never judge. Judging is how you decide your own moral compass and path and that's ok. The rude part is when you speak your judgment out loud to the people you are judging. They don't need to know what you are thinking for you to grow/benefit from the judgment.

*cough* In my opinion. *cough* (And all of this is my ideal. I have days when I'm a raging jerk. It happens.)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> When I was in grade 4. they started a lunch programme at my school - for the Very First Time, kids could bring their lunches! To school! And eat them at school!
> 
> There were picketers outside protesting. Because all good moms were to be home at the noon hour providing a nutritious hot meal.


The lunch programme seems beyond bizarre to me, as brown-bagging was very common when I was a kid, but the protests are even more bizarre! I guess there were Mommy Wars back then. Oh, well - I've been wrong before.

I still find the "eating bonbons" thing obnoxious.

I just mentioned this thread to dh, and he said "What are the Mommy Wars?". I explained, and commented that dads don't seem to do this. He said that dads wouldn't do that, because it would just end in a fist fight.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> To the bolded...are you serious? I grew up in the early 70s when a lot of women were SAHMs. I actually don't remember any women with children that worked. I'm sure there were some, but the vast majority of kids in my neighbourhood, and in the social circles (not "highly educated, professionaly successful people, by and large - we were a blue collar family, with blue collar friends - heck, when I was growing up, my mom had one year of university, and dad's a high school dropout) my parents moved in, had a SAHM. Not one of those women were "they type to sit around and eat bonbons". How unbelievably insulting.
> 
> I don't really remember any Mommy Wars among mom and her friends. Mind you, the SAHM vs. WOHM thing wouldn't have come up, because none of them WOH, except maybe occasional part-time jobs for pocket money, once the kids were in school.


Yo, I don't think that poster was saying that women of a previous generation did that. She is summarizing the book and stating that people who give up a career feel that they should be Accomplishing Goals! Not Eating Bon Bons! It's one of those hyperbolic statements that is often used sarcastically.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> The lunch programme seems beyond bizarre to me, as brown-bagging was very common when I was a kid, but the protests are even more bizarre! I guess there were Mommy Wars back then. Oh, well - I've been wrong before.
> 
> ...


I was thinking they were kind of worse wars, in that women really were fighting for actual choices - and other women, but also men, were seriously opposed to giving any ground that would allow neglectful, neglectful women to work.

That changed so fast, right around that time. By the time I was in the middle of high school, it was common for women to be working. Also a loooooooot of divorces.

There were no bonbons though, for sure. Totally agreed there.

I think at that time, kids were perceived as something that happens to you...like taxes...so there wasn't this pressure around choice. Now that we choose ("choose" really, since I do believe there are some biological elements) to have kids, it is perceived as a lifestyle choice and then you can argue about whether you're doing it right, and by right I mean perfect. Back when I was a kid, basically if you were married, which most people did, you were having kids, and having had kids, your job was pretty much to keep them alive, keep them from stealing, and get them at least mostly educated...and that was it. You were not the guardian of their interior lives for the most part. (Maybe a bit, as Free To Be You And Me came into it.)


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mambera*
> 
> I feel this way about homeschooling also. I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people view homeschooling as an ideal and public schooling as an inferior option. I think it would be insulting to teachers who have made education their life's mission to suggest that I could do their job as well as they can. Additionally, there is socialization to the culture to consider. We live in a culture where the norm is for people to work and attend school outside the home, and I want her to be comfortable with that norm.


So are you saying that, even if I just present homeshooling as the best choice for me and my family, and don't say anything critical about teachers or other parents who send their children to school, I am still insulting teachers by feeling that I am qualified to educate my own children at home?

You know, I have even, very rarely, heard some folks take it a step further and say that "all children" are better off in day care being cared for by people with early childhood degrees than they are spending all day with their parents.

I honestly don't feel that dh and I are insulting anyone by our decision to homeschool and to have one of us always be available to care for our children. This is no slam against those with teaching degrees. Just recently, I had a dental hygienist question me about whether I test my children and I just explained that I only have two children and it's pretty easy to keep up with their developmental levels and their abilities.

This is nothing like having a classroom of twenty-plus children all the same age, or a daycare classroom of, say, eight three-year-olds or ten four-year olds. It's a whole different structure...it's kind of like the fact that I think most of us prefer eating in restaurants that pass regualr inspections...but we (well,some of us, anyway) would be rather horrified at the thought of being subjected to regular visits from the Health Department, so they could make sure that all our kitchens, bathrooms, and bedrooms passed the same regulations that restaurants and hotels have to pass.

It's just...if we're going to take our definition of "insulting" to the level of even saying that one kind of choice is insulting to those who've pursued educations in order to be able to provide the other kind of choice....then everyone is literally always insulting someone.

By the way, I agree with kathymuggle that it's better to have the freedom to express ourselves than it is to always have to worry about inadvertently creating offense. It's better to get our opinons out there; if someone's offended by something we said, he or she can always do as I (and others) are doing, and ask the other person to clarify.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> Yo, I don't think that poster was saying that women of a previous generation did that. She is summarizing the book and stating that people who give up a career feel that they should be Accomplishing Goals! Not Eating Bon Bons! It's one of those hyperbolic statements that is often used sarcastically.


I know. But, the whole "SAHM eating bonbons" thing has been around for a long time, and it's just as obnoxious as "dumping your kids in daycare", imo. The earlier SAHMs weren't just sitting around, and many of them also made "projects" of their kids. I really don't think the fact that a lot of modern SAHMs are educated and career-minded has a lot to do with the Mommy Wars, except insofar as working mothers, especially working by choice mothers, shifted all the boundaries and a whole new battleground was born.


----------



## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> I get the impression that a lot of the mommy wars are fueled by childless people. I know I had a lot of opinions about parenting before I actually had a child! I was with a childless friend the other day who was going on about how horrible her pregnant friend was because she wasn't talking prenatal vitamins. I had another friend who "has a really hard time respecting women who don't breastfeed." Um, yeah, breastfeeding is great, but not everyone gets the support they need to establish a breastfeeding relationship. Seriously, if I hadn't had my mom and MIL with me, encouraging me along, I wouldn't have kept breastfeeding DD. Anyway the list goes on. I think once you have a kid you are humbled, and realize that there are a lot of hard choices out there.


I actually, as a still-childless woman, agree with this. I also think it applies to women lucky enough to have one kid that's easy and goes along with their plans well.

I am very confident in how I want to parent. I'll homebirth, I'll nurse until my kids self-wean, I'll co-sleep, I'll cloth diaper, etc.

I must interject here and say that I have been fortunate enough to be a nanny for close to two years now, which has radically shaped my views and judgements. Do I think the way I want to do things is THE right way? Absolutely, that's why I want to do them that way. However, when you actually have to DEAL with a child, you realize that life usually isn't black and white. Outside of circumcision, carseat safety and flat-out abuse, I really don't get the point in judging people. So someone has an elective c-section, electively FFs, crib-sleeps and disposable diapers? Good for them. I probably won't be very close to them because of different approaches to life, but they're most certainly not a bad parent. I say this because my nanny kid has been raised 100% opposite of how I was raised/how I want to raise my kids, and he's an overall happy kid and his parents love him.

I'll homebirth. However, if things go wrong and I have to transfer, who cares? It doesn't change the way I'll feel about my kid. I'll nurse. If, despite trying everything under the sun, it doesn't work out, I'll be completely fine using donor milk and/or formula. I'll nurse until my kids decide to wean. However, if I totally hate nursing, I'll happily wean them on their second birthday. I'll co-sleep, because it's what I did as a kid and it's the norm for me. If none of us sleep well? Separate beds won't kill anyone. I'll cloth diaper, because I feel it's best for baby, the wallet and the environment. However, if I get sick and I can barely drag my butt out of bed, a few sposie diapers won't do any harm to my baby.

I think that going into parenting with the feeling of "I'll do it EXACTLY THIS WAY OR ELSE!!" is setting up the mommy wars. Things never go 100% according to plan (sometimes they go 1% according to plan), and having such high standards for not only yourself, but every other mother in the world, is pretty crummy.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

I actually think the Mommy Wars exist largely because of, and in the realm of, the internet. I can only think of one mother ever in real life who ever says or intimates (to my face) anything the least bit judgemental about what I do with my children. Most of the moms I meet are just trying to do their best, make friends, and compare notes in polite and nonthreatening ways. Maybe they go on the internet and say awful judgemental things but they sure aren't doing that IRL.

I certainly say lots of things online that I would never say IRL, and it's not that I go out of my way to be insulting on the internet but I do say pretty much what I think because there are no social repercussions in my real life from being totally frank in an anonymous forum. Whereas IRL I certainly do go out of my way to *avoid* being insulting.

Flaming shows up on the internet in all kinds of communities just because of the anonymity, and the community of parents is a big one.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> So are you saying that, even if I just present homeshooling as the best choice for me and my family, and don't say anything critical about teachers or other parents who send their children to school, I am still insulting teachers by feeling that I am qualified to educate my own children at home?.


No (although I notice that ironically, you took my I-phrased statement to be about you!), because I don't know anything about you or your background or your children or anything. But if I were a teacher with X amount of education and experience and I met someone like myself (I have no background or experience in childhood education) who said, "I don't think my kids need school, we'll just do all that for them," yeah, I think I would probably be a little put out, or at least think it wasn't a wise decision. Kind of like how I would imagine a public defender feels about an uneducated client who insists on being their own attorney.

That's why I am surprised that there is an undercurrent around here suggesting that homeschooling 'is the best.' Because I can see how it could be best for a select community of people who have done an enormous amount of preparatory work (hats off to them) and/or have reasons for wanting to raise their children outside of the existing societal institutions (as I said I want to integrate my child into these institutions, not shield her from them). But instead there is this free-floating implication that homeschooling is some kind of generalized ideal, and that surprises me because the majority of parents do not fall into either of these categories.


----------



## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> Another thought: Some of the mommy wars on MDC are elitist.
> 
> ...


This is so spot on. I've had posts ripped apart and posters going off on tangents based on ONE word in my post. That's going way beyond nit picky. Regardless, most of the things I post about here I do talk about in real life, actually. I'm very open about it. Which has come back to bite me, but that's a whole 'nother post.

LOL and I am current a WAHM. I have no problem with WOH moms. I feel for them, it is very hard and takes a lot of work. Every one I've met regrets it in some fashion. I've seen moms crying in the breakroom. I've seen moms with a "I haven't slept in days" glazed over look. But then they tell me the love the adult interaction and wouldn't change a thing. But I didn't hear that very often. I just decided that wasn't for me.

What I mean by "having children because I want to be a mother" is simply just that, I've always wanted to immerse myself in mothering, even while I had a career, I dreamt about when I'd have a lil bebe to take care of. Many women I'm sure don't have this same dream. So I would assume this makes it easier for them to use daycare, go back to work full time, etc. It sounds like me and the OP both went the same route and I was just in agreeance with her in that respect. I also dislike the bullying, but I guess some are sensitive and some are not. I like being sensitive. I like being vulnerable. To me, this is how we learn.


----------



## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> fwiw - MDC, for a very long time, had fairly strict moderation. I think a lot of people got their feelings hurt over legitimate slights, but were afraid to say anything for fear of getting warnings, etc.
> 
> The moderation has lessened in the last 6 weeks or so - so a lot of people are working out issues at the moment (like more mainstream ideas being judged). I think MDC is in a bit of a transition period and we will see what the vibe is like in a little bit. It is good people are now able to express thing they felt they could not before.


I'll say. I would say that over the past three years, MDC has become effectively mainstream with a teaspoon of granola thrown in. In fact, to tell you the truth, I'm not even sure that that this thread would have lasted past three posts four years ago without getting deleted. Last time I checked, suggesting that formula feeding by choice was even an option (let alone a respectable option) was against the user agreement. Same goes for C-sections by choice, praising vaccines, spanking and some others. The board is, after all, supposed to be about natural family living.

I actually haven't been hanging out in the MDC forum in a while because I feel like it's become just like any other parenting board and, well, just boring.

I've been thinking about signing up for "the commune" but don't want to risk spending money just more of the same.


----------



## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:

Really? Do you really believe this? Not that it's not a legit or reasonable opinion, I'm just wondering why you would choose to breastfeed, co-sleep, AP, etc. if you don't think it will make a difference long term? Or maybe these were not your choices?

Honestly, not trying to be provocative. Just wondering why one would practise aspects of NFL/AP if in the end, you don't think it makes a difference.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

There is absolutely good physiological reasons to breastfeed. I believe that breast milk is what we were designed to eat and it does provide optimal nutrition for our species. That said, people can and do survive and thrive despite less than perfect circumstances. I think that if other parts of my parenting are going to suffer so that I can breast feed, maybe it's not the be all end all of parenting decisions.

Why am I breastfeeding and co-sleeping? Because I'm cheap and lazy. Seriously. Formula is expensive and I don't want to spend my money that way. And I'm far to lazy to get up and out of bed in the middle of the night. That sounds like work. I baby wear because otherwise I can't get anything done. I try to meet my kids' needs when they have them because I try to meet the needs of every person in my family because I think it is the nice thing to do. That's how they will learn how to care about my needs too.  I use family cloth because it has eliminated the low level abrasion I lived with all my life in my nether region. I use cloth diapers because I am twitchy about excessive garbage--I grew up in the woods as a dirty hippy. I nursed through a pregnancy and then tandem nursed for 8 months because I love my older daughter more than words and at that time I had the reserves to continue to meet her needs above my wants. At this point it is rapidly approaching the point where wanting to be done nursing is becoming a need for me instead of a want. That will dictate different choices with my second child.

I can't be everything to everyone. I do what I can where I can. I don't think that my parenting choices will be the end of the story for my kids. They get to write that part.


----------



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> This is so spot on. I've had posts ripped apart and posters going off on tangents based on ONE word in my post. That's going way beyond nit picky. Regardless, most of the things I post about here I do talk about in real life, actually. I'm very open about it. Which has come back to bite me, but that's a whole 'nother post.
> 
> ...


I don't know if you're suggesting that I'm being elitist: I'm really not trying to be (& I wasn't the only one who found offense in your comment). If you think something particular I've written is elitist please tell me (I admit I may be "elitist" about some things... but definitely NOT about mothering since I'm a FTM...).

I am glad that you explained what you meant. And it totally makes sense. My only point was that, certain words & phrases have certain pre-ordained meanings in the mommy wars & your personal experience may have nothing to do with how they're read by others -- I don't think it's being elitist to point that out in a thread about a war created by words.

FWIW, though, I don't know that most WOHMs need your sympathy or for you to "feel" for working moms... this is a hard job no matter how you do it... no one has it easier than others... even those who work by choice.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


I personally agree with this. I have made the choices I've made because I believe in them to my core. They also happen to make parenting work for me & my family. But in terms of the mommy wars, I just don't bash people over the head with them... I try to sideline the wars by discussing them at moments when I think someone has an open ear or just providing another example of how to parent.

ETA: I also don't think there's a perfect ideal out there that's healthy or useful & such ideals can create stress... maybe that's what PPs were referring to about other choices.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


I extended breastfed, co-slept (actually we're still doing that at almost age 5!) and baby wore because, well, because it just made sense for us. Plus it was practical and easy. Perhaps we were sort of forced into by virtue of our circumstances (small apartment in middle of city; impractical to lug baby carriages up and down subway and bus steps; don't have a car, so easier mobility; feeling closer to my babe by breastfeeding after a day at work). I didn't do it based on long term to consequences. So ultimately, the reasons were....selfish! I don't think that doing these things will result in a superior child. I do think, however, that the practices make sense from a physical and practical point of view. Why do something that is harder or more expensive? FWIW: I did have to supplement some with formula because the pumping thing was sometimes less than adequate. Still, I think my child will feel secure and confident because there is incredible love and respect in the home for her, not because I perfected all the stuff of AP. I think I would have done this stuff despite the label AP. People have been doing this stuff for centuries and no one patted on them on the back for it. I think the current mainstream stuff is a very new thing.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


Most of my choices were fuelled by the fact that I think they are better for the baby or our family. I looked at the evidence and decided - isn't that what parents are supposed to do???

In general I think babies should be breastfed. There are lots of health reasons for it. I know there are legitimate exceptions when a woman knows she can not or will not breastfeed. I do not judge individual choices, but that does not negate the fact I think breast is best in general.

As per other reasons - many choices I have made I have found easier or cheaper.

On occasion, I make a choice that i do not think is best due to personal circumstances. Example - cloth diaper are definitley better for the world and probably better for the child - but I did not do them. I had my plate full with housework, and decided that even though CD might be a better choice in general, they were not the better choice for my family. This does not negate the fact that CD might be the better choice in general.

I also think readers need to respect the intent of the poster, and ask for clarification if you do not understand it.

Saying "I do not cloth diaper" in a random thread is not an invitation to tell me why I should. Asking what you think is best and why - is. Some posters are not so clear on what type of feedback they are looking for; some posters are very quick to jump in with their opinion even when the poster is not looking for advice. I think both need to be guarded against.

I also find MDC a bit too mainstream at the moment. I am glad it is a bit more mainstream than it used to be (AP is not a checklist, people should not feel judged or run off for their individual decisions, etc) but it often reads pretty mainstream at the moment. At least we still discuss mainstream/crunchy here without mainstream being the default. I personally hope the tone of MDC moves a bit back toward AP/NFL because I think you can get mainstream anywhere and because I think AP/NFL has a lot going for it. I do not want to it become exclusionary as it might have veered in the past, though.

Kathy


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


Yup, I do.

I'll take breastfeeding as an example. I extended breastfed with my son to three years of age, and I am EBFing my 5 month old. I've fought through undersupply, oversupply, clogged ducts, three rounds of mastitis, and cracked and bleeding nipples as well as slept on a couch in a lobby to be able to breastfeed my newborn when he was in the NICU. So hopefully that establishes my commitment to breastfeeding, for me.

I actually think some of the health and social benefits are overstated or misunderstood, but I still also think that as the most natural default, and with the benefit of a Canadian maternity leave, it is still the most in-line with how our family operates and how we do things.

That said I honestly do not see a difference between my husband (EBF) and me (formula-fed), or between my son's peers who were FF vs. those who were BF. I can believe breastfeeding is best for us without putting anyone else down, in the way that I might not be vegan (but support that choice) or TF (but support that choice).

On top of that, my sister chose to formula feed for complicated reasons including an incredibly difficult pregnancy where she spent 10 weeks on her back not even going to the bathroom to keep her baby in, and an American maternity leave looming over her head. What struck me with her family was that her husband had such a natural, easy *attached relationship* with their daughter, because he was fully capable of meeting all her needs including food. They gelled as a parenting team much, much earlier in their parenting journey than my husband and I had a few years previously, in part because my sister was not called on to be there 24/7. (And yet my niece had one of her parents there, meeting her needs, 24/7.)

If you remember that the goal is a connected, attached family I don't think it becomes too difficult to see that there are different paths to *meeting children's needs*. For me there are some limits - spanking, for example, is not meeting a need.

But for example:

*Need for nurturing food on cue* - breast, or the best formula you can find and afford, as long as the baby eats

*Need for comfort* - can be two moms, two dads, a mom and a dad, a mom and a grandmother, a mom...whoever

*Need for loving touch and connection* - can be a $150 handwoven wrap, a $20 sling, being on someone's hip, or even being in a stroller along for the ride, as long as the parent is responsive.

*Need for security* - can be one parent being home, can be a loving and connected caregiver + enough money to pay the rent, or a parent who is not freaking out from miserableness, or one SAHP and one WOHP, or people who choose to both work and not divorce due to stress over money, or even to invest for university...security is defined differently by different people

Etc.

Do I lean natural? Yeah I do, hence the NFL component. But for me, if my *attachment* is suffering due to the naturalness, the naturalness goes first and I order the pizza rather than being extremely grumpy over having to make the tofu stir fry, y'know?









*It does not take anything away from my choices to say that other choices are equally legitimate.* It does not make my choices less important to me. It does not mean I don't deserve support in my choices. We're not vegan but when my vegan friends come over, I serve vegan dishes. I know how important that is to them. We can all end up healthy, and although they probably feel we don't have the same view on animal rights, they respect that I support animal rights and free-range farming, etc. to the extent that I do.

It's the same thing to me with the vast majority of "mommy war" issues.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I just wanted to add, on the breastfeeding example again (but you can extend this out): I can support friends in formula-feeding while still working on breastfeeding awareness. One can campaign for, for example, protection around nursing in public and still not stand in judgement over people using a bottle (which may be filled with breastmilk or formula, too).

I can be wary of commercial marketing and advertising campaigns in the same way that I am about other things without thinking formula is poison, in the same way that I may be wary of luxury cars and defaulting to driving without hating all cars, or not support branded clothing while still wearing...clothing.

I guess what I'm adding is it's okay to feel strongly and be active in creating support and awareness for one choice, without negating the other choices. As long as I have a right to breastfeed in public (as I do in Toronto), someone sitting next to me with a bottle does not take anything away.


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## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> Really? Do you really believe this? Not that it's not a legit or reasonable opinion, I'm just wondering why you would choose to breastfeed, co-sleep, AP, etc. if you don't think it will make a difference long term? Or maybe these were not your choices?


I suppose for many AP-type choices, on the population level you would probably be able to find some differences if you did a very well-controlled study.

But I think the effects are so small that you would need that large a study to find them. (This is certainly true for breastfeeding - as GuildJenn said there is a lot of hype on this site that doesn't reflect the true findings of the studies on the issue, where the beneficial effects are certainly present, but small and often difficult to locate.) I certainly don't think that you could look around at your kid and all the other kids you know, and determine on an individual level who was breastfed vs formula, who coslept vs CIO, etc. I think those effects are far outweighed by the intrinsic personality of the child and the many many other life experiences he will have.

But the reason I do most of this stuff actually has little to do with that. Part of it is what other posters have said - I'm lazy and this seems like the path of least resistance, as well as sort of the overall norm for humankind.  But more importantly I do it because I want my child to enjoy her life *now*. She loves breastfeeding. She loves sleeping with me. These things make her life nicer (and mine as well).


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I still find the "eating bonbons" thing obnoxious.


SAHMs sitting around and eating bonbons ranks right up there with having daycare raise your kids.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tillymonster*
> 
> LOL and I am current a WAHM. I have no problem with WOH moms. I feel for them, it is very hard and takes a lot of work. Every one I've met regrets it in some fashion. I've seen moms crying in the breakroom. I've seen moms with a "I haven't slept in days" glazed over look. But then they tell me the love the adult interaction and wouldn't change a thing. But I didn't hear that very often. I just decided that wasn't for me.
> 
> What I mean by "having children because I want to be a mother" is simply just that, I've always wanted to immerse myself in mothering, even while I had a career, I dreamt about when I'd have a lil bebe to take care of. Many women I'm sure don't have this same dream. So I would assume this makes it easier for them to use daycare, go back to work full time, etc. It sounds like me and the OP both went the same route and I was just in agreeance with her in that respect. I also dislike the bullying, but I guess some are sensitive and some are not. I like being sensitive. I like being vulnerable. To me, this is how we learn.


You honestly think that working mothers don't want to immerse themselves in mothering? Have you ever had to leave your 6 week old infant in daycare to go back to work? It isn't easy, no matter how much you've dreamed of being a mother. All mothers work hard and moms who work away from home really don't need sahms feeling sorry for them.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> *It does not take anything away from my choices to say that other choices are equally legitimate.* It does not make my choices less important to me. It does not mean I don't deserve support in my choices. We're not vegan but when my vegan friends come over, I serve vegan dishes. I know how important that is to them. We can all end up healthy, and although they probably feel we don't have the same view on animal rights, they respect that I support animal rights and free-range farming, etc. to the extent that I do.
> 
> It's the same thing to me with the vast majority of "mommy war" issues.


Exactly. I have absolutely nothing but respect for sahms. I don't think that making that choice means they're better mothers or love their kids anymore than a mom who works.

I completely admit, I'm extremely sensitive about the fact that I work. I enjoy working, I enjoy being home with my kids. I love the fact that they have so many people in their lives exposing them to a zillion other things. I've been told many times recently, irl, that I shouldn't be working. And I see it all the time on MDC and it gets really really old. Reading the WOHM forum, you never see anything negative about sahms (or at least, I never have). I know there have been comments both ways and I for one, make sure to word my posts very carefully to avoid offending a mother simply because she made a choice to stay home while I made a choice to work.

No one's better than anyone else because of where they spend their days.


----------



## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


Personally, I believe that what I do is infinitely better than the alternatives. However, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. That's okay with me, although I get more annoyed with rude commentary from a perspective that I think is sub-par, given that I don't belittle their choices, they could at least show the same respect to mine.

I have distant relatives who did CIO very very early, leave their children with family caregivers I would never consent to (undiagnosed alcoholics, in my opinion, never seen them without a drink in hand, every meal of the day from mimosa to beer to cocktails to wine), eat meat with every meal (not good quality TF style meat either) and tons of unhealthy fats, and wean well under a year yet want to call it "child led" (sounds from the tale that the kid went on nursing strike because the early CIO, within weeks of the harsh method starting).

I felt the need to highlight that what they've described is *not* child-led weaning, a 5 month old cannot self-wean to formula. (Because they were so shocked that my "child-led weaning" kid was still nursing at age 2.) Even then, I didn't say "It's a nursing strike because you did harsh CIO starting 2 weeks before, duh!" I said that child led weaning refers to older children, toddlers and preschoolers, who wean from nursing to solid foods, and that weaning at 5 months to formula, no matter whose "idea" it is, is just weaning. Otherwise, I keep my mouth shut about their choices. Because their choices don't affect mine. While I might privately shake my head at their 8 year old who literally weighs twice what my 7 year old does, it's not my kid, and I actually wholeheartedly do NOT believe in a village raising children who already have parents and relatives.


----------



## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I just want to address something in regards to the WOHM issue. There are a couple of things I rarely see discussed. First, some women are actually the main breadwinners in the family so it's not a choice to work but a necessity. Also, WOH doesn't always = daycare. For my family, DH and I work opposite schedules so one of us was always able to be home with our son. It was important to us to not put him in daycare while he was an infant though we would have done it if necessary. I am so empathetic to families that need to do just that. My DS does now go to part time care/preschool 2 days a week when DH is in school. He loves it and any day that he ever tells me otherwise I will respect his feelings on the matter.

It goes way beyond SAH or WOH, it really does. Neither defines anyone as a parent or how your child will turn out.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


My oldest is 9 now, and I have no idea which of her friends were breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. I can't tell. There's no way to tell unless you ask their moms. I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but it isn't something I can see to look at other people's kids.

I parented the way I did because I thought it was the right thing to do, and because it's what my instincts told me to do, not because I expected a pay-off.


----------



## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

What an interesting post. OP, I understand your observations and the choice you've made to stay home with your LO. I got pregnant with my now 8month DS shortly after earning a grad degree (a huge bucket list check off) and doing only a little bit of research freelancing. I always assumed I'd be back at work by the time DS was 6 months, but now I have no interest in *actually* going back to work. A career sounds lovely in theory, and then I think of my babe, and what I'd miss, and how often we breastfeed...and I just don't WANT to leave him. My opinions of motherhood really shifted about what it means to be a mother and how important a mother's presence is to her child. (And I do mean *mother.* I used to think anyone who loves my DS would be good enough to care for him full time, including my husband and mother in law, but I've found they just don't KNOW DS like I do...they just don't. And they are wonderful and the best people; it's just that I know so strongly that it is ME that's supposed to spend the majority of the time with DS - even during the times when I want to pull out my hair...)

So, I'm at home...and it's a MAJOR sacrifice. My husband and I are making it, but we are really lucky in a lot of areas (my inlaws are beyond generous). We can't go on vacations but we do have a nice life and know we're blessed. To answer the question (or to offer my thoughts) - I suspect sometimes those of us that sacrifice our working life feel we're putting the interest of our families above all else and that may be construed as sanctimonious, perhaps. And for those other women that won't or can't make that same sacrifice, maybe they think that SAHMs judge them harshly for it.

But no one should judge. I agree that we should respect others parenting decisions and lifestyles. We don't always know why families/moms make the decisions they choose. But it's best to believe that we all have our families best interests at heart and we are ALL doing the best we can for children.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> What an interesting post. OP, I understand your observations and the choice you've made to stay home with your LO. I got pregnant with my now 8month DS shortly after earning a grad degree (a huge bucket list check off) and doing only a little bit of research freelancing.


Oh, wow, that brings me back.

I went from getting my undergrad degree to pregnant and being a stay-at-home mom. While the whole thing was a choice (from getting pregnant to being a SAHM) I did feel, and there were people who commented, that I was wasting my degree.

I wonder if that is one of the reasons some SAHM moms are hard on other moms of all types - they feel a bit defensive themselves and are taking it out on others? MDC aside, the world is set up for workers - there can be some esteem issues arising out of going against the cultural norm.


----------



## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathymuggle*
> 
> I wonder if that is one of the reasons some SAHM moms are hard on other moms of all types - they feel a bit defensive themselves and are taking it out on others? MDC aside, the world is set up for workers - there can be some esteem issues arising out of going against the cultural norm.


Yes! Of course.  I'm *sure* this is happening for some SAHMs...as if caring for a child is not as worthy as capitalizing on a degree, or training, or other experience. Or whatever! That's why I make sure I only vent to my husband, so I don't hurt anyone's feelings. Because really, in the end, what do I know?


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I was a teacher and I went to graduate school before being a stay at home mom. When someone told me I was "wasting my degree" I told them "Man! First you bitch that all stay at home moms are ignorant low lives then you say that anyone with a degree is wasting their life if they stay home. That tells me you think *only* ignorant low lives should stay home. Then you bitch about how homeschooling is a horrible system because all these ignorant people are trying to educate their kids and they aren't qualified. Then you tell me that I, a teacher, shouldn't stay home and educate my kids because I have some "duty to the system". You have an agenda I don't want to be part of."

I felt so proud of myself for thinking of it in the moment. I'm usually only good at stairwell come backs. 

For the record *I* don't think that people without a high school or college degree are ignorant low lives. I think that there are many roads to education in life and not all of them need to be within the walls of an educational institution. Thus, I'm unschooling my kids.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> What an interesting post. OP, I understand your observations and the choice you've made to stay home with your LO. I got pregnant with my now 8month DS shortly after earning a grad degree (a huge bucket list check off) and doing only a little bit of research freelancing. I always assumed I'd be back at work by the time DS was 6 months, but now I have no interest in *actually* going back to work. A career sounds lovely in theory, and then I think of my babe, and what I'd miss, and how often we breastfeed...and I just don't WANT to leave him. My opinions of motherhood really shifted about what it means to be a mother and how important a mother's presence is to her child. (And I do mean *mother.* I used to think anyone who loves my DS would be good enough to care for him full time, including my husband and mother in law, but I've found they just don't KNOW DS like I do...they just don't. And they are wonderful and the best people; it's just that I know so strongly that it is ME that's supposed to spend the majority of the time with DS - even during the times when I want to pull out my hair...)
> 
> ...


Just FYI, this is the kind of language that I find has me rolling my eyes a bit.

I was at home with my son up to 16 months, when I got a nanny and WAHMd pt, and then went back to work full time at 22 months. My son was equally happy and well cared for during all those phases. If I had "sacrificed" to stay home with him he would have missed out on a lot at his montessori! So...that's why I just have to laugh a bit.

All our kids are doing fine. Yours, mine and the neighbours'.

For my second, I'm in a different place (my older son is in elementary, too) and in a way I would like to reorganize our lives to be home more...but I want to be able to afford the same preschool experience, so back I go.

ALL parents sacrifice for their kids.


----------



## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

I've been spotty on reading these posts-- but do mom's really think it's that black and white? I've breastfed, i've formula fed, I've worked outside teh house, I'm staying at home now, I've fed my son' things I'm proud of, but we've had bad days too. Do other people really think that all mom's fit into boxes?


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Ok really? Someone can read this far into this thread and still make comments like this?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> What an interesting post. OP, I understand your observations and the choice you've made to stay home with your LO. I got pregnant with my now 8month DS shortly after earning a grad degree (a huge bucket list check off) and doing only a little bit of research freelancing. I always assumed I'd be back at work by the time DS was 6 months, but now I have no interest in *actually* going back to work. A career sounds lovely in theory, and then I think of my babe, and what I'd miss, and how often we breastfeed...and I just don't WANT to leave him. My opinions of motherhood really shifted about what it means to be a mother and *how important a mother's presence is to her child. (And I do mean *mother.* I used to think anyone who loves my DS would be good enough to care for him full time, including my husband and mother in law, but I've found they just don't KNOW DS like I do...they just don't*. And they are wonderful and the best people; it's just that I know so strongly that it is ME that's supposed to spend the majority of the time with DS - even during the times when I want to pull out my hair...)
> 
> ...


Saying that a mother who is working isn't sacrificing enough or being enough of a presence in her child's life is absolute crap. You have no idea why every mom in the world is working or what their situation is. Just because you made a sacrifice to stay home doesn't mean every mom has that choice. Sure, I could stay home. We'd be on food stamps and medicaid and every other bit of welfare we could get. That's a sacrifice? It's better to do that than work, which I'm fully capable of doing? Sorry, I feel it's better to provide for the family I chose to have than live off of other people just so I can act all high and mighty about staying home.

There are some awful sahp's out there. Staying home doesn't automatically make you a better parent.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> There are some awful sahp's out there. Staying home doesn't automatically make you a better parent.


This is a true fact. I'm sorry that not everyone understands it.







I think you are doing just fine.


----------



## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

Mommy war, indeed.

Can I not say I made a sacrifice for my own family? I did. That has nothing to do with any other families or the choices they make. I hold no judgments on anyone else's family. Just my own.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> Ok really? Someone can read this far into this thread and still make comments like this?
> 
> ...


Uh, no. Not really. Apparently you stopped reading before you finished the entire post.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> Just FYI, this is the kind of language that I find has me rolling my eyes a bit.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree that ALL parents sacrifice for their kids. And I say it without rolling my eyes.

I thought my post was supportive of all mothers. That was my intent anyway. Oh well.


----------



## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess*
> 
> To those who have suggested in their posts that whether a child is breastfed or formula fed, sleep-trained or not, etc. makes absolutely no difference at all 10 or however many years down the road, I have a question:
> 
> ...


I have one child who went to formula at age 6 months, one at age 9 months, one who self weaned around 18 months, and one who self weaned around 2 1/2 years. One who was in daycare part time, 2 who had a sahm, and one who was in daycare full time. Co-sleeping was all over the place from going to a crib/bassinet in our room for 4-10 months to being in our bed for 2 1/2 years and in our room until age 4. One was home schooled for 8 years, one for 9 years, one for 5 years, one went to public school for 6 years and home schooled for middle school. 33 to 13 years later, I defy anyone to tell which did what. Raising children is way more than just the mechanics. Treating your children with respect and within their personalities and how they need to be parented is a much better way to "guarantee" how they will turn out as adults (barring any disability) than if they wore cloth or paper diapers.

We did what we did for 2 main reasons--it was an easy/no-brainer choice given our personalities and each choice was the best choice for each of our children at the time. Sure looking back some things could have been done "better" or differently but hind sight is always 20/20 unlike being in that situation at the time. We did the best we could and I refuse to wallow in guilt over decisions made 33 years ago. I apologized and we all moved on. We did more things "right" than we did "wrong" if our relationships with our adult children is an indication.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> Mommy war, indeed.
> 
> ...


If you wanted to say that you made a sacrifice to do something that worked best for *your* family, perhaps you didn't need to continue on to talk about people who "can't or won't" make the same sacrifice for theirs? If you really support all mothers, rather than just the ones who stay home, or just the ones who *sacrifice* to stay home, or just the ones who stay home plus the ones who simply cannot do it (but not those awful ones who COULD stay home but "won't"), then you don't even need to comment on what they're doing at all.

"Can't or won't" was completely a judgment of other families. It's judging all families who don't agree with your POV that mom, and ONLY mom, should EVER be a major caregiver.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> Mommy war, indeed.
> 
> ...


You went on to post about how some parents "can't or won't" make the same sacrifice you did. Apparently you didn't read the entire thread or it would have made sense to not post the way you did.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> If you wanted to say that you made a sacrifice to do something that worked best for *your* family, perhaps you didn't need to continue on to talk about people who "can't or won't" make the same sacrifice for theirs? If you really support all mothers, rather than just the ones who stay home, or just the ones who *sacrifice* to stay home, or just the ones who stay home plus the ones who simply cannot do it (but not those awful ones who COULD stay home but "won't"), then you don't even need to comment on what they're doing at all.
> 
> "Can't or won't" was completely a judgment of other families. It's judging all families who don't agree with your POV that mom, and ONLY mom, should EVER be a major caregiver.


Yep.


----------



## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

The original post was soliciting opinions on why there is such discord between moms that make different choices. I offered possible explanations, nothing all-encompassing as there are probably a million reasons discord exists. Obviously, or maybe not so obviously, I personally do not feel sanctimonious for staying at home, although I'm glad that I can. Perhaps my word choice was poor, but I maintain the spirit of my original post was one in which we should all support one another's parenting choices. And it's too bad that these disagreements exist. It's also too bad that I can't share my own experiences without readers thinking I'm imposing my beliefs on them.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> If you wanted to say that you made a sacrifice to do something that worked best for *your* family, perhaps you didn't need to continue on to talk about people who "can't or won't" make the same sacrifice for theirs? If you really support all mothers, rather than just the ones who stay home, or just the ones who *sacrifice* to stay home, or just the ones who stay home plus the ones who simply cannot do it (but not those awful ones who COULD stay home but "won't"), then you don't even need to comment on what they're doing at all.
> 
> "Can't or won't" was completely a judgment of other families. It's judging all families who don't agree with your POV that mom, and ONLY mom, should EVER be a major caregiver.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> I'm only three years into this parenting journey but I find that a lot of my positions have radically changed. I have spent a lot of money and effort trying to woo my second child into drinking formula because I loathe nursing with the fire of a thousand suns. But I nursed my older daughter till she was three and tandem nursed through a pregnancy. In retrospect that was a very bad decision for me. But I bought into guilt that I would harm my kids if I weaned prematurely.
> 
> ...


I really enjoy your posts, so I hope this comes across as the mild observation it was, but it struck me as I was reading this paragraph that your avatar pic is a photo of you tandem nursing. I don't know why I found that interesting -- I guess something about how that, of all images, is the one you chose to project to the MDC audience, whether or not they take the time to read your posts. It's a very "MDC ideal" sort of photograph (and very sweet!), but after reading the above I wonder whether, since nursing actually appears to be a source of stress for you, you chose it because you felt pressure to project that ideal...? I don't know, I'm not articulating it very well. Maybe it's just that you chose it long ago when you had different feelings about nursing and you haven't changed it, or you look back fondly on that time or something. And there's nothing particularly sacred about baby feet to me, so I know that a person's avatar pic isn't necessarily some monumental, ultra-meaningful symbol.







I dunno, just an observation.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> The original post was soliciting opinions on why there is such discord between moms that make different choices. I offered possible explanations, nothing all-encompassing as there are probably a million reasons discord exists. Obviously, or maybe not so obviously, I personally do not feel sanctimonious for staying at home, although I'm glad that I can. Perhaps my word choice was poor, but I maintain the spirit of my original post was one in which we should all support one another's parenting choices. And it's too bad that these disagreements exist. It's also too bad that I can't share my own experiences without readers thinking I'm imposing my beliefs on them.


The way you phrased your post is exactly why mommy wars exist. Some moms think they are better than others for certain choices they've made. Maybe you personally, do or don't, but that's what comes across by what you said.


----------



## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

My goodness, seriously? Back to the breastfeeding/sleeping boards for me...


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I really enjoy your posts, so I hope this comes across as the mild observation it was, but it struck me as I was reading this paragraph that your avatar pic is a photo of you tandem nursing. I don't know why I found that interesting -- I guess something about how that, of all images, is the one you chose to project to the MDC audience, whether or not they take the time to read your posts. It's a very "MDC ideal" sort of photograph (and very sweet!), but after reading the above I wonder whether, since nursing actually appears to be a source of stress for you, you chose it because you felt pressure to project that ideal...? I don't know, I'm not articulating it very well. Maybe it's just that you chose it long ago when you had different feelings about nursing and you haven't changed it, or you look back fondly on that time or something. And there's nothing particularly sacred about baby feet to me, so I know that a person's avatar pic isn't necessarily some monumental, ultra-meaningful symbol.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I chose it long before I started hating nursing. That grew over time.  I "drank the Kool Aid" on tandem nursing being awesome and I built it up in my head. The first two-three months were actually awesome. Then it wasn't. Then I declared "You are weaned!" to my older child. Then I slowly started hating nursing more and more....

But man. That's a damn good point. I should change that picture. It's cute and all... but it does not reflect my Crayola colored hair and that is way cooler.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *teraze*
> 
> I absolutely agree that ALL parents sacrifice for their kids. And I say it without rolling my eyes.
> 
> I thought my post was supportive of all mothers. That was my intent anyway. Oh well.


Well here's an example - not that I believe this, but:

I sacrifice time with my kids in order to provide them with a stable two-income family. I feel that it's modelling for my sons that women are just as capable as men, and gives my spouse the support he needs to focus on family and not just on his career, and it allows us to save for university, expose them to the world through travel, and fund important enrichment activities. I'm totally willing to put the needs of my family above my ego as a parent. I suspect sometimes those of us that sacrifice a few hours a day with our children in order to make sure our financials are stable feel we're putting the interest of our families above all else and that may be construed as sanctimonious, perhaps. And for those other women that won't or can't make that same sacrifice, maybe they think that WOHMs judge them harshly for it.

See what I mean?


----------



## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> Well here's an example - not that I believe this, but:
> 
> ...


If you wrote that paragraph originally (yes, I recognize my language) I would have thought to myself: right on sister, that's an absolute possible reason for the existence of these 'mommy wars.' I would not have thought: what I right b--ch, she thinks she's better than me because I chose a different way.

Please say you see what I mean...


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> Well here's an example - not that I believe this, but:
> 
> ...


I would have nodded along and said, "Yeah... that sounds hard but like you are doing what you think is right." ... but maybe I am just inclined to think that people really are trying their best.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
> 
> Well here's an example - not that I believe this, but:
> 
> ...


I see no issue with this, or with teraze's posts.

When I was a WOHP, I couldn't make the sacrifices that I could make now. (I don't really make any, to be honest - I highly doubt I could bring home enough to make much difference in our financial situation, once we paid the afterschool care for dd1 and ds2, and the full-time care for dd2). I wouldn't make the sacrifices WOHP make, if I didn't have to, from a financial survival perspective (ie. if I didn't have to WOH to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table, I wouldn't have been WOH). I've met WOHP who wouldn't choose to stay home, even though they finanically could.

I agree we all make sacrifices, but I fail to see where teraze said, or implied, anything else. A WOHP isn't making the same sacrifices she's making. That doesn't mean they're not making sacrifices. WOHP can't or won't make the same sacrifices teraze is making. If they could and would, they'd be SAHP! That doesn't mean they're making wrong decisions, or not doing what's best for their families. It means they can't, or won't, make the same sacrifice she's making. It blows my mind that people are getting bent about this. And, honestly - I think people flipping out about her comment, and assuming that she meant it in the most offensive and insulting possible way, is what fuels the Mommy Wars. Of course, she thinks SAHMing is valuable to her family, or she wouldn't be doing it. Of course, WOHMs think that WOH is valuable for their families or they wouldn't be doing it.

Saying "this is right for me and my family" is not an indictment of the choices other moms make...and neither is observing that other mom have made, and are making, different choices.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Saying "this is right for me and my family" is not an indictment of the choices other moms make...and neither is observing that other mom have made, and are making, different choices.


True fact.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> True fact.


As opposed to a false fact? (just kidding you, rightkindofme...as long as we're mincing words and meanings...I couldn't resist!)


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I was remembering it wrong! I have this icon on livejournal and I thought it said, "This is a true fact" and I have been saying it that way for years thinking I was quoting this image. Uhm. I'm kind of lame.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I really enjoy your posts, so I hope this comes across as the mild observation it was, but it struck me as I was reading this paragraph that your avatar pic is a photo of you tandem nursing. I don't know why I found that interesting -- I guess something about how that, of all images, is the one you chose to project to the MDC audience, whether or not they take the time to read your posts. It's a very "MDC ideal" sort of photograph (and very sweet!), but after reading the above I wonder whether, since nursing actually appears to be a source of stress for you, you chose it because you felt pressure to project that ideal...? I don't know, I'm not articulating it very well. Maybe it's just that you chose it long ago when you had different feelings about nursing and you haven't changed it, or you look back fondly on that time or something. And there's nothing particularly sacred about baby feet to me, so I know that a person's avatar pic isn't necessarily some monumental, ultra-meaningful symbol.
> 
> ...


I changed it to one that seems way more appropriate!


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## teraze (Apr 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:





> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> I changed it to one that seems way more appropriate!


I love the new one!







I hope I didn't put you on the spot about the other one, it really was a sweet photo.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I love the new one!
> 
> ...


It is!... but I was in the middle of hemorrhaging while that picture was taken, so maybe a little disingenuous to have it as the symbol of my happy little family, you know? Pictures don't tell the whole story sometimes.


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## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

Here's a thought I had as I read the last page or two- some insults hurt more than others, right? Like, if someone tells you that your husband doesn't love you and thinks you're ugly, that hurts more than if someone says your tuna casserole tastes like crap. And while there is much individual variability between what you find most insulting and what I find most insulting, there are some general trends towards things that are insulting to most people. One of those being your investment as a parent.
So, when SAHMs make comments that seem to suggest that WOHMs don't care enough about their kids, it touches on a very raw nerve. Whereas a WOHM making a comment that seems to suggest that SAHMs don't contribute to their family's security and growth, it doesn't really offend because most people don't have that raw nerve about providing for the family.
Also, I do feel like SAHMs are sometimes guilty of making untrue assumptions about the role working mothers play in their kids lives, and what daycare is actually like. And that's fine, there's no reason for you to know what daycare is like if your kid has never attended one. But then don't say things like you know that staying home with you is what's best for your kid (yes, even your own kid). Put your kid in daycare for a few months, and then see if you're right or wrong. At least then you can make that statement with fact to support it, rather than just an assumption based on your own fears about the experience.
And FWIW, I work 10 months a year. I stay home 2 months a year. When I work, I spend about 5 of my daughter's waking hours at work. During those 5 hours, she eats the meal and snack that I prepared and packed for her, and she plays, talks with, and enjoys the company of her teachers and friends. I know what's good about staying home and I know what's good about letting my daughter experience other people. I know that each kid has different needs, wants, and tolerances, and I think good moms do what is necessary to meet those needs and wants within the confines of keeping the whole family operating smoothly. As a personal example, before DD was born, and even when she was an infant, I was sold on the idea that daycare centers were EVIL, and that a small home based center was much much better. For some kids, that's true. Not for mine. She thrives in the center environment. I had to be responsive to her needs over my own beliefs in order to make that happen though, you know?
Sorry for the choppiness, I'm writing on my phone...


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## Anna Bella (Dec 20, 2009)

It can be hard to keep it friendly when you get into debates on these forums ... we mothers are pretty sensitive and it's easy to take things the wrong way. What really irritates me is when people imply (or directly state) that I don't care about my babies' safety because of the choices I've made, eg homebirth, natural birth, co-sleeping. It especially comes from people who don't seem to have ever done any research on the subjects but just believe whatever they saw on tv or whatever their dr told them. So I usually feel compelled to defend my position and maybe even enlighten some people who are interested in learning ... but generally it just seems to piss some people off, especially on the mainstream forums!


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

I did research on planned HB. It increases risk of neonatal death by 3 times. So, I gave the evidence to my sister in law and she is going with a birthing center staffed by CNMs. The center had 30% transfer rate and is super close.to the hospital.

CDC is very open with stats. I wanted stats from MANA but you have to sign an agreements with them which is not how research is shared by other entities.

You are doing the same thing that you accuse people of....I choose hospital birth for myself because I did my own research and calculated odds. 1% risk , for example , seems like a low number until you express is as 1 in 100.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Anna Bella*
> 
> It can be hard to keep it friendly when you get into debates on these forums ... we mothers are pretty sensitive and it's easy to take things the wrong way. What really irritates me is when people imply (or directly state) that I don't care about my babies' safety because of the choices I've made, eg homebirth, natural birth, co-sleeping. It especially comes from people who don't seem to have ever done any research on the subjects but just believe whatever they saw on tv or whatever their dr told them. So I usually feel compelled to defend my position and maybe even enlighten some people who are interested in learning ... but generally it just seems to piss some people off, especially on the mainstream forums!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *petey44* 

Here's a thought I had as I read the last page or two- some insults hurt more than others, right? Like, if someone tells you that your husband doesn't love you and thinks you're ugly, that hurts more than if someone says your tuna casserole tastes like crap.

Actually, the latter would insult me more. I don't give a crap what some third party says about whether or not my husband loves me. That seems like a weird thing to get upset by.

And while there is much individual variability between what you find most insulting and what I find most insulting, there are some general trends towards things that are insulting to most people. One of those being your investment as a parent.
So, when SAHMs make comments that seem to suggest that WOHMs don't care enough about their kids, it touches on a very raw nerve. Whereas a WOHM making a comment that seems to suggest that SAHMs don't contribute to their family's security and growth, it doesn't really offend because most people don't have that raw nerve about providing for the family.

Really? Speak for yourself. DH is very sensitive about providing for our family, and I was sensitive about providing for my family when I was the "breadwinner"...and telling me that I don't contribute to my family's security or growth is absolutely offensive. I can't imagine what kind of dreamworld you're living in that you don't think it would be!

Also, I do feel like SAHMs are sometimes guilty of making untrue assumptions about the role working mothers play in their kids lives, and what daycare is actually like. And that's fine, there's no reason for you to know what daycare is like if your kid has never attended one. *But then don't say things like you know that staying home with you is what's best for your kid (yes, even your own kid).* Put your kid in daycare for a few months, and then see if you're right or wrong. At least then you can make that statement with fact to support it, rather than just an assumption based on your own fears about the experience.

Wow. SAHMs are obnoxious? You're flat out telling us, as SAHMs not to make statements about what's best for our own children and families, because you might find them insulting, and then talking about how SAHMs make insensitive, insulting comments. That's probably the single most obnoxious remark I've seen on this entire thread.

Yes - I will make comments about what's best for my family. Deal with it. And, please, please don't put on this "SAHMs do this and that and are sooo insulting" thing. It goes both ways. Some of the stuff I've heard from WAHMs (both when I was one, and since) is every bit as bad as anything that gets dished in the other direction.

Oh - and get over the "fears" thing. That's also insulting and incredibly patronizing. I'm not "afraid" of putting my child in daycare. I simply believe that me being home is best for my kids and my family.

And FWIW, I work 10 months a year. I stay home 2 months a year. When I work, I spend about 5 of my daughter's waking hours at work. During those 5 hours, she eats the meal and snack that I prepared and packed for her, and she plays, talks with, and enjoys the company of her teachers and friends. I know what's good about staying home and I know what's good about letting my daughter experience other people. I know that each kid has different needs, wants, and tolerances, and I think good moms do what is necessary to meet those needs and wants within the confines of keeping the whole family operating smoothly. As a personal example, before DD was born, and even when she was an infant, I was sold on the idea that daycare centers were EVIL, and that a small home based center was much much better. For some kids, that's true. Not for mine. She thrives in the center environment. I had to be responsive to her needs over my own beliefs in order to make that happen though, you know?



> I don't think daycare centres are evil. I never have. They're simply not the right choice for me, for many reasons.


.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> One thing I have learned as a parent is never to say NEVER as it is practically an invitation for a kharmic smackdown. Circumstances can change very radically, and "I could never" can turn very quickly to "I need to". That is when you really learn not to be judgemental.


Okay, reading this thread now, and I've only got this far, but had to quote this, as I think it's the first time I've ever completely agreed with something *choli* said!


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## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

Wow, Storm Bride, my post was not directed specifically at you (or anyone else on here either). In fact, if I recall correctly, you have said that you've done both, working outside home and staying at home. Which means that my post would really not be applicable to you, as I was talking about people who slammed a choice that they had never made and had no experience with. Please go back, reread, and see if it makes more sense now with that added explanation.
And nowhere did I say or imply that SAHMs are obnoxious.
I was trying to make two points- one- that saying or implying that a mother is not really a mother because she's not the sole provider all the time hits a very deep nerve for most people, which is why it seems easy to insult a WOHM. And two- that it does bother me, personally, when a person slams a choice that they actually know nothing about. I used the word "fears" because that is how I've heard it mentioned, on Mothering and IRL, by quite a few moms who are agonizing over what to do when their family's financial needs aren't being met, so they're going to have to work, but what to do with the kids?? Maybe you don't now and never did have a fear surrounding daycare, but a lot of people do. Hell, I did before I experienced it.
The angry tone of your message really put me off, btw. I don't think there was any need for that.
And again, typing on my phone so sorry for any choppiness.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alenushka*
> 
> I did research on planned HB. It increases risk of neonatal death by 3 times.


Could you share the source of your stats? This is NOT what I have read.

Anna Bella shared that she hated when people accused her of not caring for her baby's safety by her choices - and you come on and did just that.

I think if you (general you) are going to hang out of MDC you should be able to handle the fact that people have homebirths, avoid vax, EBF, ect without inserting your anti-HB, pro vax, pro formua stance on every.single. thread.

I get people are angry - but at some point you either have to let go off your anger and move on or cut your losses and leave. JMHO.


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

I hear you.

I personally try really hard to be a perfect mom and cover all my basics. It started with my mom and her amazing strength, while other well off mothers were telling her formula was much better she stuck with breast feeding. According to the doctor my due date was Nov. 22, but according to me I could have the baby as late as Dec. 14th. so I was happy to have the opportunity to switch to a midwife, I registered at the hospital yet planned for a home birth. The baby had a birth defect, but was very healthy 9 lbs 12 oz. with a heart rate of 130 through labour and delivery. It was so nice to let him do the breast crawl, but he didn't really get to latch because we had to go to the hospital. I tried to nurse him before surgery, but I was still in a bit of shock. He was in traction so it was hard to lean over and nurse him, so I just pumped...every 2.5 hours 'round the clock, for the month we were in the hospital. My supply was low so I did everything I could to keep it up. So, long story short, I was able to finally hold him and breast feed...for the next 4 years!

I do get frustrated when it seems like people care less than I do. I think it's important to be financially, emotionally and relationship secure before having kids. If you can't afford to stay with them the better part of the day then don't get pregnant. I'm finding there's been a nice switch from 30 years ago, it's more accepted and respected to have a natural birth (as opposed to scheduled c-section), breast feeding is encouraged now, (even extended breast feeding). I don't think any moms should feel guilty about what they do for their children. The only time I feel guilty is when I intentionally make a poor choice, it's one thing to make an uninformed decision that we later regret, but that's what we as moms can do for each other here. I've yet to hear someone say, "I regret breast feeding", "I feel guilty about staying at home with my kids", "I wish I didn't make homemade baby food", "Too bad my 48 month old drank human milk over cow milk."...you all get what I'm saying.

So now, in my life, it's time for me to decide on school for my little one, so far I'm proud of all my choices, but I'm stumped with what to do here. I have heard people say they regret homeschooling, I really want to home school, but I feel it's a bit selfish of me. My child is amazing and I think he would do very well in the public system. We do have really good schools in our community, and he loves learning and being with other children. I think I'm going to give it a try and see how it goes. I have looked into distant education as well in case it doesn't work out.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> I hear you.
> 
> ...


Well gosh, it must make you feel so good to be a perfect mom! Tell me though, what is the right way to deal with an unplanned pregnancy? You know, before you're financially, emotionally and relationship secure enough to have a baby.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> I do get frustrated when it seems like people care less than I do. I think it's important to be financially, emotionally and relationship secure before having kids. If you can't afford to stay with them the better part of the day then don't get pregnant.
> 
> I don't think any moms should feel guilty about what they do for their children. The only time I feel guilty is when I intentionally make a poor choice, it's one thing to make an uninformed decision that we later regret, but that's what we as moms can do for each other here.










Good way to let everyone know that if they aren't as perfect as you then they don't deserve to have children. Do you also recommend eugenics programs so that unworthy people don't breed? For the record, I waited until I was financially stable and in a solid relationship before I had kids. But I will most likely never be your definition of emotionally stable. Instead I have a rockin support network that is happy to help me through the parts of life I can't handle by myself due to my emotional instability. I'm still a good mother. I am ensuring that my children have AWESOME care by people who love them tremendously when I can't perfectly provide it all by myself.

I don't agree that moms should never feel guilty. There are bad mothers and they deserve their guilt. I don't think that the vast majority of mothers falls into this category. And I don't think that all poor choices are things you should feel guilty for. I would LOVE to switch to formula but my daughter won't drink it. I'm not willing to starve her so I'm stuck with nursing. To me in my personal little hierarchy of parenting that wouldn't be the optimal choice given that I make enough milk to drown a small South Asian nation but I have those pesky emotional problems. So I actually think it would be better. But weaning isn't going well. Oy.

Basically, what I am saying is... I really hope your second choice is less of a rah rah rah about how you are better than everyone else.

And I'm not even getting into the bit about how women should all stay home. Cause no, they shouldn't.


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse, if you get raped, take the morning after pill.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Alenushka, regarding the statistics on home birth vs. hospital birth -- while I don't know anything about the particular source you are citing, I simply do want to point out that many of these research studies lump planned and unplanned homebirths into the exact same category, which I guess would mean that my planned homebirth was in the same category as the unplanned homebirth of a young girl I heard of who claimed that she was not aware that she was pregnant until the baby splashed out into the toilet when she was using the restroom one day, and then she wrapped him or her into a towel and stuffed him or her under her bed, where s/he stayed until someone discovered the poor child's dead body.

It's similar when it comes to research on the risks of parent-child co-sleeping. An arrangement where the baby is between one parent and a wall, or between Mom and Dad (neither of whom abuses drugs or alcohol), and where everyone has ample space, is lumped into the same category as arrangements where parents abuse drugs and alcohol, or where the space is very crowded -- for example, in cases where a tiny infant is place into a bed with a bunch of siblings.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse, if you get raped, take the morning after pill.


.

*stomp on fingers before you get in trouble*


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Mom shouldn't feel guilty about what they do for their children. I may be delusional, but I like to believe every mother is trying their best and every mother needs encouragement because it can be tough to make healthy choices.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse, if you get raped, take the morning after pill.


So, what if, like me, you wanted both your babies and are still very happy to have them -- but you simply aren't perfectly prepared financially, emotionally, or whatever?

Are you really saying that only the totally-prepared kind of person that you described is worthy of having children?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

petey44, would you also say, then, that before a working mother can say that it's best for her own child to attend daycare, she really needs to quit work and stay home with her child for a few months? And, is she just making an "assumption based on (her) own fears" if she says that her quitting her job would lead to the loss of their home and other basic necessities? Does everyone really need to do these sorts of experiences before they can speak about their own knowledge of their own children?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> But then don't say things like you know that staying home with you is what's best for your kid (yes, even your own kid). Put your kid in daycare for a few months, and then see if you're right or wrong. At least then you can make that statement with fact to support it, rather than just an assumption based on your own fears about the experience.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse, if you get raped, take the morning after pill.


Gosh you have all the answers don't you? I had my first baby after I was married. He wasn't planned and we weren't completely ready (or he would have been planned). I'm not quite sure how a sexless marriage would have worked for me. Probably not very well.

You know, a mother who is constantly learning is a good thing. I've made many mistakes that I do regret as a mom. But at the time I made them, it was after lots of research and a long decision process. I've found out later that while it was the best choice at the time, I wouldn't make it again. And I do think I'm a good mom, who puts my kids first and does the absolute best I possibly can. I don't need to put down other moms to make me feel like a good parent. My kids are healthy and happy and wonderful and they have a whole bunch of people that they consider family because I don't see the problem with sharing them with others. The evil daycare they go to? Full of friends and amazing people that do help influence their lives and teach them a zillion things I couldn't teach them if they were home with me (and only me) all the time.

I've said already in this thread, but if being a sahm is what works for you and your family, have at it. But you have to realize that sah parents aren't the be all and end all for parenting. There are good and bad parents everywhere who make lots of good and bad choices. A mother who chooses to work or use formula or use a crib or whatever isn't instantly a bad parent.


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

I don't think anyone is ever perfectly prepared for having children, but it's nice to think about being somewhat prepared for a child.


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

I agree, something that may seem to other moms as "right" or "wrong" are different depending on what's best for the child at the time. I used disposables for my first child because I felt with his condition that it was more sanitary than cloth. I don't get bothered by moms who dress their babies in t-shirts that say, "If it's not cloth it's trash", I think it's cool that so many people are starting to make 'crunchier' choices for their children. At one point when my milk supply was behind I used a bottle of formula, I don't feel bad about that, that's what it's there for. I had my other child circumcised, I looked into it, it was the right choice for us, some will disagree, but that was my informed decision and what I strongly felt was best. I don't want anyone to feel bad, it's just so worth making informed choices.

As I mentioned, I do try real hard to be a perfect mom, and I think it makes it all that much more fun when you let things slide for a treat, like letting them roast marsh mellows, have a freezie, ice-cream, a glass of cow milk, or watch Cars movie, it's just so mundane if they get to do that all the time!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> I hear you.
> 
> I do get frustrated when it seems like people care less than I do. I think it's important to be financially, emotionally and relationship secure before having kids. If you can't afford to stay with them the better part of the day then don't get pregnant.


 You do realize that all three of those securities can be lost at the drop of a hat?

I could afford to stay home with my kids and chose not to. I suppose I should be struck by lightening.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse, if you get raped, take the morning after pill.


So its safe to say that you didn't have sex until you were in a stable relationship that was completely 100% financially secure? Cause really, there is no such thing as being 100% financially secure.

And, not everyone has access to the morning after pill, for a variety of reasons.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *choli*
> 
> I could afford to stay home with my kids and chose not to. I suppose I should be struck by lightening.


I can't afford to stay home with my kid, b/c I'm not in a relationship, and I'm no where close to being financially secure. I suppose I should be struck by lightning too.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> Here's a thought I had as I read the last page or two- some insults hurt more than others, right? Like, if someone tells you that your husband doesn't love you and thinks you're ugly, that hurts more than if someone says your tuna casserole tastes like crap. And while there is much individual variability between what you find most insulting and what I find most insulting, there are some general trends towards things that are insulting to most people. One of those being your investment as a parent.
> So, when SAHMs make comments that seem to suggest that WOHMs don't care enough about their kids, it touches on a very raw nerve. Whereas a WOHM making a comment that seems to suggest that SAHMs don't contribute to their family's security and growth, it doesn't really offend because most people don't have that raw nerve about providing for the family.
> ...


Wow, this is a really annoying statement. I know what is best for my family and I will say whatever I see fit about it. How obnoxious for you to assume that just because I havent put my kid in daycare I cant make an informed decision about it.

There are 5 daycares within 20 miles of my house. None of them are fit for my child. When I say they are not fit for my child, what I mean is that I dont want my kid playing with toys that have tv characters all over them, watching tv all the time, eating non organic food, being told "good girl" and "bad girl", being forced to lay down in a crib to nap (she has never been in a crib in her life), an d wearing disposable diapers. Not one of the five day cares will deal with cloth diapers. I want my kid to be raised the way that I want her raised, not the way that daycare wants her raised, and the daycares here make me have to make way too many compromises on my parenting styles for her to attend. (so, YES, it would be being raised the way daycare wanted, not me).

My sister was abused in daycare and I am the one that caught the woman hitting her when I went to pick her up one day when my mom was sick. The lady was holding her hand over my sister's mouth (9 months old) while she was hitting her on the butt. At this same daycare, my mom could send her own snacks, they promised that they didnt cio, they said someone would be with her at all times. We trusted them. My two other siblings had gone there for years and there had never been a problem.

Sure, I know all daycares dont do that. But my personal experience has helped me make the decision that I know is right for my family. Because, IMO, you have no idea what is going on when you arent there. And for me and DH, we cant handle that kind of anxiety. So YES, this decision is right for us. AND NO we dont need to try it to find out.

I am so sick of everytime anyone says anything about how they know that its best for their kid not to go to daycare all of the sudden, all of us SAHM's are "slamming" WOHM's. Get a grip. I like strawberry ice cream too. I dont HATE you or judge you for liking vanilla. Its just a difference of opinion. I feel like SAHM's arent allowed to have opinions about why we've chosen to do this without it pissing all the working mothers off. Geeze, no one is allowed to say anything that they believe in anymore without "offending" someone else. And some of the people who get "offended" about this issue are the same people who have told moms in other threads to "put your big girl panties on." Seriously, put your big girl panties on and understand that you are doing what you think is best for your family and who gives a sh*t what some mom across the country on the internet thinks about your choice to go to work. Most of us arent thinking anything about your choice, we just know that WE are making the right choice for OUR families.

I WAH. I specifically made this change in my life to SAH with my kids. I could take offense to you suggesting that I not make any statements about daycare until Ive tried it because I switched my whole life around to do this and you are making the assumption that I just sit around and think "Everything Im doing is right and daycare sucks." blindly. I plan to homeschool our kids too, so it would be pretty hard to do that and work, considering Id have to drive round trip 120 miles a day to work. So, I could try daycare for three months if I wanted to, but the point is that this is what Ive chosen to do with my life, and I think its what is right for us. Sorry that offends you.


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Met my dh when I had just turned 20, became good friends, lived with him a year later. We had sex after living together 9 months, used a condom the whole time, the condom broke once so I took the morning after pill. I saved up $10,000.00, we got married, together saving $2000.00 a month, I used the rhythm method, got pregnant for my 26th birthday, loved my pregnancy but didn't prepare for a birth defect (as I didn't do anything in my pregnancy to cause it), dealt with the struggles, saved up $40,000.00 to buy a house to fit a second child because we decided we wanted one maybe two more, bought our dream house, had a perfect home birth to another perfect boy, dh decided two was enough, he got snipped, and that's about it. I'm very glad I've waited and prepared because having a child with extra needs does put a strain on things, I suppose that's why I may come across as preachy.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *petey44* 

Wow, Storm Bride, my post was not directed specifically at you (or anyone else on here either). In fact, if I recall correctly, you have said that you've done both, working outside home and staying at home. Which means that my post would really not be applicable to you, as I was talking about people who slammed a choice that they had never made and had no experience with. Please go back, reread, and see if it makes more sense now with that added explanation.

I actually haven't done what you said, as ds1 wasn't in daycare. I couldn't afford it, and made other arrangements for him. In any case, I wasn't offended on a personal level. I was, and am, disgusted that you basically said, "you can't say that you made the best choice for your family, unless you've tried everything". People, including moms, have every right to believe, and say, that they've made the right choice for their own families.

And nowhere did I say or imply that SAHMs are obnoxious.

I didn't exactly say you did, although I can see how you got that impression. Your entire post was pretty much about how SAHMs say really awful, hurtful things to WOHMs, but the things that WOHMs say to SAHMs aren't so bad. That carries a strong vibe of "SAHMs are so obnoxious/insulting/mean/whatever to WOHMs". Trust me, it goes both ways.

I was trying to make two points- one- that saying or implying that a mother is not really a mother because she's not the sole provider all the time hits a very deep nerve for most people, which is why it seems easy to insult a WOHM.

It's easy to insult a SAHM, too. Do you have any idea how long the "sitting the couch eating bonbons" thing has been floating around? Do you have any idea how many SAHMs get flack from WOHMs, because "if I can keep my house clean and work all day, she should be able to since she's there", etc? And, the number of just generally condescending, dismissive comments aimed at SAHMs from WOHMs is insulting, too (multiple variants on "you're wasting your brain/education", "I'd go mad doing nothing but changing diapers and washing dishes", etc.). They hit a deep nerve. You basically said that only the insults aimed at WOHMs hit a deep nerve, or imply that the mom in question isn't doing right by her kids. The insults thrown at SAHMs imply the same things.

And two- that it does bother me, personally, when a person slams a choice that they actually know nothing about. I used the word "fears" because that is how I've heard it mentioned, on Mothering and IRL, by quite a few moms who are agonizing over what to do when their family's financial needs aren't being met, so they're going to have to work, but what to do with the kids?? Maybe you don't now and never did have a fear surrounding daycare, but a lot of people do. Hell, I did before I experienced it.

I'm sure some people do have fears about daycare. (And, some people don't, and then have bad experiences, and some people just have it go well all along and everything in between). But, I've seen this a couple of times around here in the last couple of weeks. This whole "if you make X decision, it must be because you fear Y decision". It's condescending, and makes a lot of assumptions about other people's motives. People make decisions for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with fear. (Personally, I'm homeschooling, partly out of fear, but I'm not SAHMing from fear at all.)

The angry tone of your message really put me off, btw. I don't think there was any need for that.

The "need" for that is that your post, especially the sentence I bolded, made me angry. The Mommy Wars turn my stomach. It's bad enough that people get bent out of shape and start in with "you're insulting me, because you made a different choice than I did, and think it's best for your family". But, when people start saying "you can't even say this is best for your family, because you haven't tried the alternatives", it's going over the top. My choice to stay home, and my belief that it's best for my kids (and, quite honestly, ds1 did just fine, for the most part, with me at work...but dd1 and ds2 are very different people than ds1 was/is) is about me and my family, and I have every right to say "this is best for me and my family/kids". It's not about you. It's not about your family. So, why do you even care if I say "I'm home with my kids, because that's best for them."?


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

ya'll... don't feed the trolls! the ones being obnoxious with a post count of 6. come on...

and.. troll. your classism and judgmental tone are not welcome here.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

No, you never said that you were talking about people who "slammed" a choice. You said that people who were saying "I know what is best for my child" shouldnt say that until they have tried it. And what is your idea of "slammed?" Saying something like, "I dont want my kid to go to daycare, thats why I SAH." SLAM.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> ya'll... don't feed the trolls! the ones being obnoxious with a post count of 6. come on...
> 
> and.. troll. your *classism* and judgmental tone are not welcome here.


Seriously. Money doesnt solve everyone's problems. Some of us didnt intend to make tons of money before we had kids. Good for you for being able to be financially stable at 26. Personally, Im glad that I spent the time in my early twenties learning stuff and having life experience that I feel will be an asset to parenting my children. Id rather share stories of living in communal houses, traveling the country, and working on projects that I truly believed in than my experience working a job so that I could save money enough money to have a baby. Just my personal opinion, I know financial security is more important to lots of people than it is to me.

Sorry for feeding Hildare. I just cant help myself sometimes. I have stopped myself from commenting on this thread for days, but the past two pages are just infuriating.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

You know what's really fun...when you work real hard to be a stay at home mom by saving money on breast feeding, cloth diapering, feeding your kids home made food, hang drying laundry, and then your kids start helping you! My little guy helped me shuck corn, then took the husks to the composts yesterday! As a FTM (full time mom), I just may be out of a job soon! Just kidding, I'll pick up more night shifts (I'm only working one night a week as a wohp ((work outside home person)) and that's my 'non-mom' time).


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> ya'll... don't feed the trolls! the ones being obnoxious with a post count of 6. come on...
> 
> and.. troll. your classism and judgmental tone are not welcome here.


But! But! Someone on the internet is Wrong! WRONG! WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!























*ahem* Yeah... you're right... do I really haaaaaaaaaaaaaave to be a grown up though? It's kinda boring.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> I don't think anyone is ever perfectly prepared for having children, but it's nice to think about being somewhat prepared for a child.


I did prepare for having a child. I made sure that we had savings, and were well into a mortgage, and stable. And I also made sure I have a career that I love, that would support us if necessary (albeit it would be difficult, even with the insurance), and that I was a well-rounded, happy human being.

And guess what? That means I enjoy working - and I love the gift of the preschool community I can afford to give my kids.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> I think it's important to be financially, emotionally and relationship secure before having kids. If you can't afford to stay with them the better part of the day then don't get pregnant.
> 
> ...


Well, I've now seen two amazingly obnoxious comments on the WOHM/SAHM thing in this thread. I do have to give it to the WOHMs. As much as the one aimed at SAHMs pissed me off, this one takes the cake. Unreal. It's not hard to see why the Mommy Wars won't die.


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I only see the mommy wars on the MDC (the only parenting board I really frequent).

People never act like this in my real life.

And if I was as judgmental as people on here can be, I would really be missing out on some great friendships in life.

Oh, my son is in elementary school now. Does that mean someone else is raising my kid and I'm not immersing myself in being a mother?

Some of those mommy war comments are so predictable they've become incredibly tiresome and boring.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse, if you get raped, take the morning after pill.


Wow. I thought I'd seen the most obnoxious post yet, and you turned around and topped it in moments! In case you're interested (you're probably not, because obviously your opinions are the only ones that count), a fair number of women have philosophical, moral and ethical objectsion to taking the morning after pill. For any number of reasons, I would not terminate a pregnancy in any way, under any circumstances (and, yes - I'm pro-choice). There are many other women who feel the same way. And, if that's your answer to other women not being as awesome mothers as you, I just...you know...this doesn't happen often, but words fail me.

I hope you're a troll.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> As I mentioned, I do try real hard to be a perfect mom, and I think it makes it all that much more fun when you let things slide for a treat, like letting them roast marsh mellows, have a freezie, ice-cream, a glass of cow milk, or watch Cars movie, it's just so mundane if they get to do that all the time!


For what it's worth, my advice after 18 years of parenting, with four kids of very differing temperaments...stop trying. You can't be a "perfect" mom, because that would mean being a perfect human being, and there's no such animal.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Met my dh when I had just turned 20, became good friends, lived with him a year later. We had sex after living together 9 months, used a condom the whole time, the condom broke once so I took the morning after pill. I saved up $10,000.00, we got married, together saving $2000.00 a month, I used the rhythm method, got pregnant for my 26th birthday, loved my pregnancy but didn't prepare for a birth defect (as I didn't do anything in my pregnancy to cause it), dealt with the struggles, saved up $40,000.00 to buy a house to fit a second child because we decided we wanted one maybe two more, bought our dream house, had a perfect home birth to another perfect boy, dh decided two was enough, he got snipped, and that's about it. I'm very glad I've waited and prepared because having a child with extra needs does put a strain on things, I suppose that's why I may come across as preachy.


You know...when some people experience something like a birth defect in their child, they're actually humbled by the experience. And, the fact that you can even say "wasn't prepared for a birth defect (as I didn't do anything in my pregnancy to cause it)" tells me that you live in la-la land. Seriously? You thought you had total control over whether or not your child had a birth defect? To take your arrogant assertions about having to "secure" to have a child to their logical conclusion - nobody should get pregnant, unless they're "secure" enough to cope with the worst possible birth outcomes, in terms of special needs. Because, any woman can have a baby with unexpected special needs, medical conditions, etc.

This wasn't necessarily your most offensive post, but it's definitely the most disturbing. I think you have control issues.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> ya'll... don't feed the trolls! the ones being obnoxious with a post count of 6. come on...
> 
> and.. troll. your classism and judgmental tone are not welcome here.


*sigh*
I know. And, I really hope you're right. I've met people with almost this much attitude in real life, though, so I'm afraid she may be for real...


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## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

It's fun to have fun!







I'm just insecure and in need of validation







, plus, my little one is sick so he's nursing a lot







and that means computer time for mommy







I couldn't imagine having a sick 2 year old and sending them to daycare







or taking time off work to be with the little one...blame it on being a bored house wife







...what's everyone else's excuse?







Fun emoticons!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

People don't send sick kids to daycare. Daycares have rules against that.

And I have heard anti-SAHM stuff IRL, to whoever said they only hear it here. I'm betting WOHMs hear anti-WOHM stuff IRL too.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> You know what's really fun...when you work real hard to be a stay at home mom by saving money on breast feeding, cloth diapering, feeding your kids home made food, hang drying laundry, and then your kids start helping you! My little guy helped me shuck corn, then took the husks to the composts yesterday! As a FTM (*full time mom*), I just may be out of a job soon! Just kidding, I'll pick up more night shifts (I'm only working one night a week as a wohp ((work outside home person)) and that's my 'non-mom' time).


Oh my gosh, my kid helped me shuck corn the other day too! Well we fed the husks to the cows, but oh well. Maybe I can be as a good of a mom as you are as soon as I quit my job. Oh wait, probably not since I wouldn't be able to feed or shelter my kids if I did.

The part I bolded is a phrase I absolutely hate. I don't care you stay home with your kids, you're not more a mom than anyone else.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> It's fun to have fun!
> 
> ...


I assume you aren't a troll if you've been a member since 2009, but this is a hell of a way to start posting.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama*
> 
> I only see the mommy wars on the MDC (the only parenting board I really frequent).
> 
> ...


This is not the case where I live. I have been commented at by people that I know, some of my friends, and most of our family members because of my choice to SAH. I am the only woman in my entire extended family that does not WOH and Im regularly talked down to about it. People often treat me like I live in kiddie land and am not a "real" adult because I dont go to work every day. Ive even been told by one of our clients that if you choose to stay at home after you have kids you eventually lose the ability to converse with "true adults" (no kidding) and you make up issues that your kids have because you have nothing else to do. All of these people are mom's. Whenever I complain about ANYTHING to most people around me (excluding my small group of mom friends who are all pretty AP) I get told that I am making it hard on myself. "Get a job, feed your kid formula, send your kid to day care, let her cry it out so you can get some sleep, get some tv dinners, get cable, if you spank her hand I'll bet she's stop throwing food, ect" Yep. Its pretty much wherever I go. So basically, to be a SAHM who EBF's, CD's, eats non processed food, doesnt cio, and practices GD you can NEVER EVER complain about ANYTHING because the party line is that I've brought this on myself.

Did I mention that there are two types of playgroups that I have found in the city close to where I live? There is the group of moms who are 10-15 years older than me with their first child who waited to be financially stable to have their kid and come toting all of the latest/.most fashionable baby gear. Then there is the group of mom's who are around my age who I just.cant.get.along with because I cant go to a playgroup where people yell or hit their kids. Mommy wars extend far, far beyond the internet here.Im sure it gets better as children get older, but with little ones, I get told all the time what Im doing wrong and how with their kids they did this or that that was sooo much better.

By the way, I have problems with schools, but I really think that there is nothing wrong with more than one adult being prominent in a child's life. To me that isnt the issue, as long as you respect the person. It seems like everyone has a problem with the idea that someone else is raising your kids. Yes, they are helping to do so. When your kid spends 8 hours a day with someone else, they are helping to raise your child. Many, many teachers refer to the children in their class as "their kids" because they DO spend 40 hours a week with them. I know when I lived with my dad and I went to school and and after school care I really only saw my dad for an hour in the morning and from 6-8 at nighttime. (8 was bedtime). So, 15 hours in 5 days compared to the 40 hours I spent with my teacher, plus the 10hours with after school care. He didnt have a choice, but he also worked every sunday so I spent most of that day with someone else too. When you break that down, I was really only spending about 28 waking hours a week with him. Thats not a lot considering that I was awake for about 100 hours. If you are with your kid less than 1/3 of the time they are awake you have to be okay with the idea that someone else his helping to raise them.

ETA: Just to clarify, there is also an awesome AP playgroup but its during a time that I cant go. So, those two are just the ones that I can go to. Playdates are way more fun anyway.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> People don't send sick kids to daycare. Daycares have rules against that.
> 
> And I have heard anti-SAHM stuff IRL, to whoever said they only hear it here. I'm betting WOHMs hear anti-WOHM stuff IRL too.


I've also heard both IRL - dating back to the early 90s, when ds1 was very little. The Mommy Wars aren't a result of the internet, although I do think that the net has intensified the situation, in some ways.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> Oh my gosh, my kid helped me shuck corn the other day too! Well we fed the husks to the cows, but oh well. Maybe I can be as a good of a mom as you are as soon as I quit my job. Oh wait, probably not since I wouldn't be able to feed or shelter my kids if I did.
> 
> ...


Totally. I feel like that phrase "full time mom" can be applied to most everyone who has a child. People dont stop being a mom when they go to work. Dont you know that is one of the primary reasons why women are still paid so much less than men? Ill bet every single one of these WAHM's have had to leave work to go pick up their kid at some point or another. Mom isnt a title that you only get when you are with your kid. You are a mom all the time whether or not you are with you child all the time. We are all full time moms. Some of us stay at home all day and some of us go to work sometimes and some of us work all the time. Regardless, we are all full time moms.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> And I have heard anti-SAHM stuff IRL, to whoever said they only hear it here. I'm betting WOHMs hear anti-WOHM stuff IRL too.


Honestly, I'm hard pressed to think of any instance where someone has made any underhanded comment IRL about my WOH status. Maybe there are people who think things, but they have perhaps been gracious enough to keep it to themselves? Part of it may be that I'm around a lot of people who are a lot like me in their views and station in life (whether they WOM or SAH). I find that when I come to the internet, there is a huge cross-section of people that I normally don't encounter in everyday life. My next door neighbor is a SAH mom but never in a million years would I imagine her saying something critical (to my face) of how I do things. Likewise with her. I don't know, we tend to find common ground on a lot of other things, and our relationship doesn't rest on how we do things. I could say the same thing about the all the SAHP partners of the people I work with, etc. Not on our radars at all.

Not saying the criticisms don't happen in real life, I'm sure they do, but my experience with it has been strictly internet related.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Totally. I feel like that phrase "full time mom" can be applied to most everyone who has a child. People dont stop being a mom when they go to work. Dont you know that is one of the primary reasons why women are still paid so much less than men? Ill bet every single one of these WAHM's have had to leave work to go pick up their kid at some point or another. Mom isnt a title that you only get when you are with your kid. You are a mom all the time whether or not you are with you child all the time. We are all full time moms. Some of us stay at home all day and some of us go to work sometimes and some of us work all the time. Regardless, we are all full time moms.


This one is kind of strange to me. I try to avoid "full time mom", because I know that it sets people off. But, it never bothered me when I was a WOHM. I wasn't on full time as a mom. I was maybe on call, but not full-time. I'll be honest - when I was frantically tring to process mutual fund trades, based on error-ridden tickets from the reps, in time for a 1:00 deadline (the problem with being on the West Coast), I wasn't even really thinking about ds1 that much. I certainly wasn't doing any kind of active parenting. So, I just never thought of parenting as "full time". Mind you, I didn't think of it as being a full time mom when I quit my job and stayed home, either - it was just before ds1 started kindergarten, and he was, again, in someone else's care for several hours a day.

I think it's loaded terminology and I avoid it. But, I think it has to do with the slant people have on the usage. I'm always a mom - whether I'm with my kids, or at work, or attending an ICAN conference 2000 miles away. But, when I hear someone talk about being a "full time" mom, I assume they're talking about the hands-on part of things. When I'm at work or a conference or whatever, I'm not doing that. The terminoloty is flawed, though - parenting isn't the same as any other "job".


----------



## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> petey44, would you also say, then, that before a working mother can say that it's best for her own child to attend daycare, she really needs to quit work and stay home with her child for a few months? And, is she just making an "assumption based on (her) own fears" if she says that her quitting her job would lead to the loss of their home and other basic necessities? Does everyone really need to do these sorts of experiences before they can speak about their own knowledge of their own children?


No, sorry, I can see how it read that way, but that's not what I meant. I mean that, if you've never tried daycare, you can say things like, "I don't know how daycare would work for my child" or "I have these concerns about daycare, what do you think" but you really shouldn't say, "I know that daycare would be a bad decision." Because you really don't KNOW, you know- you just think, feel, or believe.

For the next part, about quitting a job leading to a loss of income, I think it depends on the person. Some people can sit down with their financials and see that it would be a bad decision, or a doable decision, based on their numbers. Other people do look at the numbers, and the numbers say that they can stay home, but they still decide not to based on a fear.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Holy cow, Adaline's Mama, people actually say this stuff to you? I guess I'm living a super isolated life. Even the most mainstream people in my family wouldn't have the cajones to say that to my face. I'm sorry you have hear this kind of stuff.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> This is not the case where I live. I have been commented at by people that I know, some of my friends, and most of our family members because of my choice to SAH. I am the only woman in my entire extended family that does not WOH and Im regularly talked down to about it. People often treat me like I live in kiddie land and am not a "real" adult because I dont go to work every day. Ive even been told by one of our clients that if you choose to stay at home after you have kids you eventually lose the ability to converse with "true adults" (no kidding) and you make up issues that your kids have because you have nothing else to do. All of these people are mom's. Whenever I complain about ANYTHING to most people around me (excluding my small group of mom friends who are all pretty AP) I get told that I am making it hard on myself. *"Get a job, feed your kid formula, send your kid to day care, let her cry it out so you can get some sleep, get some tv dinners, get cable, if you spank her hand I'll bet she's stop throwing food, ect" Yep. Its pretty much wherever I go.* So basically, to be a SAHM who EBF's, CD's, eats non processed food, doesnt cio, and practices GD you can NEVER EVER complain about ANYTHING because the party line is that I've brought this on myself.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> No, sorry, I can see how it read that way, but that's not what I meant. I mean that, if you've never tried daycare, you can say things like, "I don't know how daycare would work for my child" or "I have these concerns about daycare, what do you think" but you really shouldn't say, "I know that daycare would be a bad decision." Because you really don't KNOW, you know- you just think, feel, or believe.
> 
> *Semanitcs. Think, feel and believe is enough - I would not get bent out of shape from using the word "know" *


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

absolutely. My MIL is a total b*tch. She WOH'ed for her kids entire life and she is mad at me for not doing the same because its making her son have to work oh-so-hard. I never complain around her anymore though. I've had good friends tell me to quit bitching and give my kid some formula when I had super sore nipples, my aunt told me once when DD was crying "you'll have to let her CIO eventually or shell never learn", and my own mother told me to get some disposable diapers when I told her I felt like there wernt enough hours in the day. I have to talk to lots of clients and people for our business, so they are mostly the ones who stay stuff. When you are relatively young and have your first kid, people feel like they can say anything to you. The thing is, these people are spread all over from Ohio to Alabama, so its not like its just this area of KY.

Maybe I should be more scary so no one will have the cajones to say it to me


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

I appreciate your insight.







With my son's birth condition,







I did learn that there are some things that make it nearly impossible to breast feed, so I had to eat my words there, but I'm stubborn so the challenge was good for me. During the pregnancy, of course there were worries, but I didn't focus on the things I couldn't control, but I do try control the things that are my responsibilities as a human and especially when I'm privileged to be entrusted with another little being.

The view is pretty sad from my high horse if I look behind me, but if I look ahead, I'm almost at the ivory tower







. Just kidding, us mom's are all in this together and yay for us all making it this far!


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Whenever I complain about ANYTHING to most people around me (excluding my small group of mom friends who are all pretty AP) I get told that I am making it hard on myself.


I've learned recently (the hard way of course) that I can't complain to many people about much of anything, otherwise it comes right back at me. So I hear you there.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> This one is kind of strange to me. I try to avoid "full time mom", because I know that it sets people off. But, it never bothered me when I was a WOHM. I wasn't on full time as a mom. I was maybe on call, but not full-time. I'll be honest - when I was frantically tring to process mutual fund trades, based on error-ridden tickets from the reps, in time for a 1:00 deadline (the problem with being on the West Coast), I wasn't even really thinking about ds1 that much. I certainly wasn't doing any kind of active parenting. So, I just never thought of parenting as "full time". Mind you, I didn't think of it as being a full time mom when I quit my job and stayed home, either - it was just before ds1 started kindergarten, and he was, again, in someone else's care for several hours a day.
> 
> I think it's loaded terminology and I avoid it. But, I think it has to do with the slant people have on the usage. I'm always a mom - whether I'm with my kids, or at work, or attending an ICAN conference 2000 miles away. But, when I hear someone talk about being a "full time" mom, I assume they're talking about the hands-on part of things. When I'm at work or a conference or whatever, I'm not doing that. The terminoloty is flawed, though - parenting isn't the same as any other "job".


Ok so if you (general you) stay home with your kids, you can call yourself a full time mom. I don't stay home with my kids, so I'm obviously not a full time mom which makes me what? A part time mom? You really can't see how that's insulting?


----------



## petey44 (Nov 6, 2008)

Storm Bride, I can't quote your reply to my last post, I don't know why.

But, I wanted to say that you know, you're right, the part you said about it being just as easy to insult SAHMs. I do think that it's easy for me to forget that, since I'm always on the other end.

Adaline's Mom, I wasn't talking about you specifically. Sorry you were offended and found me to be annoying.

Let me just say this- I have a very good friend IRL who is dealing with this issue right now- she has to go back to work full time if they want to keep their house, stay out of bankruptcy. They are making a lot of decisions that I don't agree with to avoid having to have this happen (for a variety of reasons, but a big one is to keep the kids out of daycare). And it's frustrating to me to see my friends self-destruct based on this idea, completely unfounded by any personal experience, that daycare is not right for their children. And it's not even like the example of 5 daycares in the vicinity, all of which are against your child-rearing beliefs. There's a million daycares around them, including ones that the parents even say, oh yeah, that looks great...but I don't want to put my kid in daycare even if it's a great one, so instead I'm going to make my children deal with incredibly stressed and angry parents, and potentially end up without a house. So yeah, I think it's a lot easier to say things on the internet about these types of choices than to my actual friend, you know. But that's not fair or right, so sorry.


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Maybe I should be more scary so no one will have the cajones to say it to me


You may have a point there...people may be actually afraid of me! Doubt it, though, I tend to be very mousey and can exit a room in a flash. I tend to have one of those avoidance personality disorders.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> Maybe I should be more scary so no one will have the cajones to say it to me


Maybe









Try and figure out some one-liners to shut down conversation.

"No, I am going to do it this way, I am just venting. We all complain sometimes, right?"

"I would prefer it if we did not talk about this anymore."

etc.

Also, and this one can be harder to do, surround yourself with a good class of people. People who do not judge as much and are more live and let live. Some of this is easier as your baby ages - people tend to be very judgey where new moms and babies are concerned - they are less so with older kids in my experience (or they keep it to themselves more)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> Ok so if you (general you) stay home with your kids, you can call yourself a full time mom. I don't stay home with my kids, so I'm obviously not a full time mom which makes me what? A part time mom? You really can't see how that's insulting?


I can see that it insults people. It never insulted me, is what I'm saying. If I heard people say "full time mom" when I was WOH, I assumed they meant it in a different way. Many people are very dismissive of SAHMs and I've heard more than one person say that being a SAHM is no different than being unemployed. So, some of them/us say "I'm a full-time mom", as opposed to being unemployed (which we technically are, of course...but that's also insulting). It's more a "my job is to be home looking after my kids", not inherently a "other moms are only part-time", ime and imo. (This does, of course, discount people who simply say it to be mean and snarky.)

As I say, it's something I avoid saying, because I know it pushes people's buttons. But, no...I, personally, don't see it as insulting.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *petey44*
> 
> Adaline's Mom, I wasn't talking about you specifically. Sorry you were offended and found me to be annoying.
> 
> Let me just say this- I have a very good friend IRL who is dealing with this issue right now- she has to go back to work full time if they want to keep their house, stay out of bankruptcy. They are making a lot of decisions that I don't agree with to avoid having to have this happen (for a variety of reasons, but a big one is to keep the kids out of daycare). And it's frustrating to me to see my friends self-destruct based on this idea, completely unfounded by any personal experience, that daycare is not right for their children. And it's not even like the example of 5 daycares in the vicinity, all of which are against your child-rearing beliefs. There's a million daycares around them, including ones that the parents even say, oh yeah, that looks great...but I don't want to put my kid in daycare even if it's a great one, *so instead I'm going to make my children deal with incredibly stressed and angry parents, and potentially end up without a house.* So yeah, I think it's a lot easier to say things on the internet about these types of choices than to my actual friend, you know. But that's not fair or right, so sorry.


Parents who have to go back to work, and/or have their children in daycare, if they're not happy about it, can still be angry and stressed. And...we don't own a house. We wouldn't own a house, even if I went back to work. It's not actually the end of the world. Maybe if the situation they're in, and trying to keep their house, is causing them that much stress, they'll be happier without it?

And, how can you say that their idea that daycare isn't right for their children is unfounded based on your personal experience? It's not your family. There are many, many factors that go into this kind of decision, and even very good friends can't always see them all.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

When I'm working I forget I'm a mom and work is my focus, (I don't know if that's a good thing or not. lol). I really don't like the idea of stereotyping moms/wives with the whole wahm, sahm, wohm, blah blah blah, (I work at night when dh can babysit, but lately it's only been one night a week, so I don't really feel like a 'working mom') we're all humans enjoying this roller coaster ride of life, (or not), no need to try to push people off the roller coaster, but we can encourage each other to buckle up for the ride, it's better to be safe then not, we're all here to share tips, tricks and helpful advice.


----------



## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *EJ Lang* 



> I couldn't imagine having a sick 2 year old and sending them to daycare
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I'm home with a sick 2yo. I don't send him to daycare puking....that would just be mean to all the other kids and parents.

And why couldn't you imagine taking time off work to stay home with a sick kid? Thats what us WOHM's do when we need to. In fact, I remember my dad doing that many many times when I was little too.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

My little one has a bad cold and he's been wanting to nurse all day, I also feel passionate about this subject, I don't think making homemade baby food/breast feeding/non-daycare/non-dairy (the 4 things the O.P. mentioned) are arguably a bad thing.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> When I'm working I forget I'm a mom and work is my focus, (I don't know if that's a good thing or not. lol). I really don't like the idea of stereotyping moms/wives with the whole wahm, sahm, wohm, blah blah blah, (I work at night when dh can babysit, but lately it's only been one night a week, so I don't really feel like a 'working mom') we're all humans enjoying this roller coaster ride of life, (or not), no need to try to push people off the roller coaster, but we can encourage each other to buckle up for the ride, it's better to be safe then not, we're all here to share tips, tricks and helpful advice.


There's so much wrong with this post. Maybe I'm the weird one, but I never forget I'm a mom. I get extremely busy and have lots to do but my kids are always in some part of my mind. Always. Your dh doesn't "babysit" his own kids. I find it funny that your last few posts have been all we're all in this together, support, etc after your first post that working parents shouldn't have had kids.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> we're all here to share tips, tricks and helpful advice.


Tips like, "If you don't want a baby don't have intercourse. If you are raped, take the morning after pill."


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

EJ Lang,
While Im starting to agree that you are not a troll, Im starting to wonder if you are drinking daytime martinis. Because the more you post, the less sense you make.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Sucks when they're sick eh? I don't call in sick when my kids are sick because their daddy 'babysits' as he calls it.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Sucks when they're sick eh? I don't call in sick when my kids are sick because their daddy 'babysits' as he calls it.


See? We're all different. If dh referred to looking after his own children as "babysitting", all hell would break loose.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Yep, condoms work and if they don't there are other options, don't forget outer course.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

I hate it too, that's why I put it in quotations!


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Yep, condoms work and if they don't there are other options, don't forget outer course.


I'm sure my friend who used a condom and ended up pregnant will be happy to hear that.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Yep, condoms work and if they don't there are other options, don't forget outer course.


You didn't say, "Use birth control." You said don't have sex. And maybe outer course gets you off, but it's really not something I find inspiring.

My pregnancies have all been planned. Including what month they happened in. And I am a tremendous slut. Obviously I've figured out birth control.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Martinis are too strong! I wish I had a good excuse for what goes on in my brain! I have a cold too, so we're all just chillin' sitting outside and about to play "Go Fish" with a 2 and 4 year old!


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Sucks when they're sick eh? I don't call in sick when my kids are sick because their daddy 'babysits' as he calls it.


I'd put a stop to that saying immediately. One does not babysit ones own children... one parents... or takes a turn solo parenting. Don't ever think that words don't have power to shape ideas.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rightkindofme*
> 
> You didn't say, "Use birth control." You said don't have sex. And maybe outer course gets you off, but it's really not something I find inspiring.
> 
> My pregnancies have all been planned. Including what month they happened in. And I am a tremendous slut. Obviously I've figured out birth control.












I have issues. I had 2 unplanned pregnancies (one ended in a miscarriage) and 1 planned. The planned one took me over a year. So you can't always get things the way you think they should be.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> I have issues. I had 2 unplanned pregnancies (one ended in a miscarriage) and 1 planned. The planned one took me over a year. *So you can't always get things the way you think they should be.*


You're not kidding. My plans for my pregnancies went completely out the window, in every possible way...except that I did end up with four children, just as I wanted (and, the way everything else had worked, I honestly expected dd2 to be twins, just because it would have been another monkey wrench!).


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Parents who have to go back to work, and/or have their children in daycare, if they're not happy about it, can still be angry and stressed.


Very true, I have seen this. A good friend of mine returned to work through financial necessity. It turned out that her two kids loved daycare and absolutely thrived in it. That didn't bother their father, but their previously SAH mom was sort of insulted by it - she felt that it invalidated her earlier "sacrifices" to stay at home - she almost seemed to wish that they DIDN'T like daycare so much. It made her pretty angry for a while and less than ideal as a parent, but she eventually got over it.

My own sister gave up work when her second DD was born. DD1, who was four, complained for the first few weeks that she missed her friends at daycare and wanted Mommy to go back to work. My sister was kind of hurt by that, she thought that her DD1 would be thrilled to have her at home full time. DD1 eventually got over it and so did my sister.

Things don't always turn out as we expect, and there is often an adjustment period when we have to let go of our preconceived notions.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Working parents should have had kids?


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Working parents should have had kids?


They certainly should if they want the title "Parents"


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

lol! Otherwise they wouldn't be called working parents.







I don't believe anyone should have kids.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Working parents should have had kids?


Fortunately, it's not up to you to decide for the rest of us! You can go off into your special perfect world, and leave the rest of us to enjoy our imperfections.

After work, of course.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Outer course is better than having an unplanned pregnancy.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Outer course is better than having an unplanned pregnancy.


Yuck. No, it isn't always. I'd much prefer my 9 year old to half an hour of fun.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Some one mentioned that I had said this, I disagree. People work, people have kids, it's not up to me to decide what's best for other people's present situations, also none of my business really. I must say, there's a lot of miscommunication on this board, I'm here for insight, information and encouragement to and from all moms whatever their choices may be. I promote breast milk, home made food, most of the crunchy stuff, and I like that it's becoming more mainstream. Thankfully where I live, we do have choices whether we want to put our kids in daycare or not.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> Fortunately, it's not up to you to decide for the rest of us! You can go off into your special perfect world, and leave the rest of us to enjoy our imperfections.
> 
> After work, of course.


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Some one mentioned that I had said this, I disagree. People work, people have kids, it's not up to me to decide what's best for other people's present situations, also none of my business really. I must say, there's a lot of miscommunication on this board, I'm here for insight, information and encouragement to and from all moms whatever their choices may be. I promote breast milk, home made food, most of the crunchy stuff, and I like that it's becoming more mainstream. Thankfully where I live, we do have choices whether we want to put our kids in daycare or not.


You said this:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> If you can't afford to stay with them the better part of the day then don't get pregnant.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

You know what, I am currently carrying a child that is a result of an unplanned pregnancy, and I can guarantee you that it was good enough sex that neither of us were too upset when we got a BFP. Outercourse just doesnt do it for most people, especially not us. Thats fine and dandy every now and then, but do you really think that we arent going to have sex between one baby and the next? Seriously?

"Unplanned" isnt the same as "Unwanted."


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Alight, I should have said "unwanted pregnancy".


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

EJ
Can you just go away? You are really offensive and annoying and I dont think you know your a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to almost everything you have tried to talk about it. Have a backbone. If you are going to make some asinine statement either own up to it or apologize, stop backsliding and acting like we are all friends who are here for the same purpose. Because we arent here for the same purpose, you are here to argue while most of us are here because this is our community.

Edited because asinine has one "s" not two. And I hate to misspell my insults.


----------



## squidink (Apr 21, 2010)

I've read this whole thread and just wanted to add something I think is relevant to the OP. Firstly, about why the "mommy wars" occur, I think it's natural to feel defensive if you feel your choices are being attacked or even just wrongly judged, especially when the choices you make are important to you; choices about pregnancy, birth, child rearing, family planning, health and nutrition spring to mind. I also think it is natural for most people to think that the choices they are personally making are the best; that's probably why they made those choices in the first place. It is also easy to feel judgement about other people's choices that are different from our own, but it's really unproductive.

Here's an example that has nothing to do with the "mommy wars." I was vegan until I became pregnant. I feel very strongly about humane treatment of animals and the negative health impacts that excessive animal protein consumption can cause. However, I knew that no one would ever listen to me if I walked up to them while they were eating fried chicken and started spewing facts about battery farmed hens. I made the choices that I felt were best for me and only talked about the reasons why if someone asked me outright. I sometimes felt judgement toward people for not knowing any better, not caring enough to find out, or just not wanting to know the truth about where their meat comes from, but no one wants an evangelist damning them for their decisions unasked. You don't convince people that you're right by being an a**hole.

I am only pregnant with my first and can't speak to judgement about child rearing choices, but many people have already made judgments about my decision to have a child and my decision to have a home birth. I'm the first of my friends to have a child. Many of my childless friends have told me how I'll want a c-section, an epidural or an induction, which I find presumptuous and frankly rather ignorant. While my gut instinct is to be rude to people who make insulting comments or presume that I have no idea what I'm doing, it seems to be much more useful to talk to people kindly and with empathy about the things they say.

I think we could all use more reminders in our daily lives to treat others with kindness and empathy, even if we don't agree with everything they say, and even if they don't treat us with the same regard.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Some one mentioned that I had said this, I disagree.


I'm quite sure that was a typo and they were referring to your assertion that working parents should*n't* have kids.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *squidink*
> Many of my childless friends have told me how I'll want a c-section, an epidural or an induction, which I find presumptuous and frankly rather ignorant.


Totally OT, but fwiw, I ended up with five unwanted c-sections. And, I never, ever wanted any of those things (okay - there was a very brief period, after I'd been prodromal labour for 10 days and hard labour for two, when I kinda/sorta wanted an epi, just so I could sleep - but I didn't really want one, yk?). Surgery and having needles put in my spine squick me out.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Alyantavid, can you expound on your implications of your quotes of mine? Having children can cost a lot of money, but it doesn't have to. I personally feel parents can make a living and still avoid daycare if that's their choice. Don't have kids if you can't afford them, don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't spend more than you make...what are they teaching kids in school these days?


----------



## squidink (Apr 21, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Totally OT, but fwiw, I ended up with five unwanted c-sections. And, I never, ever wanted any of those things (okay - there was a very brief period, after I'd been prodromal labour for 10 days and hard labour for two, when I kinda/sorta wanted an epi, just so I could sleep - but I didn't really want one, yk?). Surgery and having needles put in my spine squick me out.


I'm not opposed to interventions when they're necessary, but some of the comments have been things along the line of, "you'll want a c-section so you don't ruin your vagina," and "everyone I know wanted an epidural as soon as they got to the hospital." If I have to have a c-section for my child's health or my own, so be it, but to presume that I want one to not "ruin my vagina" is ridiculous.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

How awesome is it that in a thread discussing the reasons for the Mommy Wars, someone feels the need to break two years of silence to specifically make sure that a bunch of loaded cannons actually get fired into the crowd???


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Alyantavid, can you expound on your implications of your quotes of mine? Having children can cost a lot of money, but it doesn't have to. I personally feel parents can make a living and still avoid daycare if that's their choice. Don't have kids if you can't afford them, don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't spend more than you make...what are they teaching kids in school these days?


Well apparently they don't teach you to be polite.

My "implications" are direct quotes from you. You said if you can't afford to stay home with your kids the majority of the day don't get pregnant. Meaning, if you don't want to stay home, don't have kids. Kids cost money, even if you stay home. They have to be fed and clothed and that's gotta come from somewhere. Your insinuation that I'm too stupid to understand how to stay home with my kids is assinine. Millions of parents choose to work, many prefer to not be on welfare and support the children they brought into this world, some parents don't believe in abortion. You have no idea about my choices except what I've put into this thread. You don't know how I ended up with 2 unplanned pregnancies or why I work.

I got married, had sex with my husband (who knew that was such a horrific thing?!) and got pregnant. Guess what, I'm being a grown up and being responsible about choosing to keep my child.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Alyantavid, can you expound on your implications of your quotes of mine? Having children can cost a lot of money, but it doesn't have to. I personally feel parents can make a living and still avoid daycare if that's their choice. Don't have kids if you can't afford them, don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't spend more than you make...what are they teaching kids in school these days?


You know..."don't have sex if you don't want kids" is one of those amazingly judgmental, obnoxious things people say, and it sounds, superficially, as though it makes sense. It doesn't. For most people (I'm sure there are some who are more-or-less asexual), sex is a very powerful emotional and physical need. I don't believe that celibacy is a healthy way to live in the long term (again, for most people). Telling people to just not have sex is about as realistic as telling people to just not eat. It's not going to happen.

In any case, "affording" kids is a slippery concept. What happens when you decided to ttc, and can "afford" kids, and then your financial situation changes suddenly (car gets totalled and the insurance company screws you, the breadwinner, if applicable, gets unexpectedly laid off, one or the other of you experiences a sudden, unexpected health crisis...this can have a dramatic financial impact even in Canada, where people aren't being bankrupted by hospital bills on a regular basis, etc.), or your child is born with an unexpected, and expensive, health problem that isn't covered by insurance. What happens if you realize that you can afford a child - and then it's twins or triplets (this has thrown both of my siblings a financial curve ball - no previous history of multiples, but they both had twins)?

As to "parents can make a living and still avoid daycare". In what circumstances? Sure - some parents can do that. But, as with every single aspect of parenting, that depends on many, many factors. I "avoided daycare" (had no problem with it, except for transportation to and from - none in walking distance, and I didn't drive back then - and the fact that I couldn't afford it, anyway). That doesn't mean my solution is available to everybody. (Basically, I paid family members to babysit, but we arranged a bargain price, and, most importantly, I didn't have to pay for unused time - my ex's job wasn't a typical, full-time job, and sometimes, he'd be off every weekday for a week. If I'd had ds1 in daycare, I'd have been paying for those days, even though there would have been no income coming in from my ex. My income covered the basics, in a pinch, and I made the vast majority of our income...but it wsn't enough to absorb costs like that.)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *squidink*
> 
> I'm not opposed to interventions when they're necessary, but some of the comments have been things along the line of, "you'll want a c-section so you don't ruin your vagina," and "everyone I know wanted an epidural as soon as they got to the hospital." If I have to have a c-section for my child's health or my own, so be it, but to presume that I want one to not "ruin my vagina" is ridiculous.


Yeah - I've heard them all before. They kind of turn my stomach (and this is totally OT, but...I couldn't feel my clitoris - AT ALL - for almost a year after my third c-section, because of the nerve damage...still, almost six years later, don't have normal sensation in that area - my vagina may have been "saved", but....not really, yk?).

Epidurals freak me out. I've had to have spinals for three of my c-sections, and I'd much rather be knocked out, no joke.

Okay - back to our regularly scheduled battlefield thread.


----------



## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> I personally feel parents can make a living and still avoid daycare if that's their choice. Don't have kids if you can't afford them, don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't spend more than you make...what are they teaching kids in school these days?


You know, I might be able to avoid daycare, but only if I went on welfare, and lived in shelter - and really, that doesn't sound like something that would be "best" for my ds. Do you think thats what I should do? DO you really think my ds would be better off being homeless than in daycare? I certainly don't think that. Especially since I found a fantastic daycare where he is learning t speak Mandarin - something I could never in a million years teach him.

And yeah, I know I had ds before I was financially ready, but I was living with a boyfriend (who seemed like a nice guy at the time....more on that another time though), and we got pregnant accidentally. Birth control failed, which happens sometimes. Oops. Should I have gotten an abortion (I am pro-choice, and I support a woman's right to choose, but it was not a good choice for me)? Should my brilliant, beautiful, amazing child not exist? Should my ds live with his crazy dad (yes, he's crazy), and his grandma who tried to take him away from me?

Don't say that I shouldn't have my DS - b/c I'm a pretty good mother (not perfect like you, sorry) and my DS is growing up loved and happy, with a mom who is happy to take time off work to stay home when he's sick.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

Happy, healthy children and parents, tips and tricks to make life better. Ignore my brashness, I'll work on being a little gentler with my words, peace...over and out,


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> Sucks when they're sick eh? I don't call in sick when my kids are sick because their daddy 'babysits' as he calls it.


My DH is DD's parent, not her babysitter. Just saying. I'm more or less responding to your earlier post that you work while your DH babysits. Not sure if I understand the above quote. It is so bizarre.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alyantavid*
> 
> You don't know how I ended up with 2 unplanned pregnancies or why I work.
> 
> *I got married, had sex with my husband. *


*gasp*
you slut. I'll bet you were doing that just for fun, not even trying to make a baby!


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

So only wealthy people should have kids, and therefore only wealthy people should have sex? Am I understanding this right? All poor people should be celibate?


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> So only wealthy people should have kids, and therefore only wealthy people should have sex? Am I understanding this right? All poor people should be celibate?


Not only that, but planning to provide for your kids by maintaining a dual-income household is not okay!


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> So only wealthy people should have kids, and therefore only wealthy people should have sex? Am I understanding this right? All poor people should be celibate?


Yes, you are correct. You get a gold star! (just don't think about cashing it in)

Qualifier: I'm snarking.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EJ Lang*
> 
> My little one has a bad cold and he's been wanting to nurse all day, I also feel passionate about this subject, I don't think making homemade baby food/breast feeding/non-daycare/non-dairy (the 4 things the O.P. mentioned) are arguably a bad thing.


Wait a minute -- what's that about homemade baby food? My girls never needed any baby food...it was breast all the way 'til they felt ready to take in more and more solids. This means that *no one* should *ever* need baby food...though I'll admit that I went through a phase of really enjoying the baby cereal that WIC gave us when dd1 was around one. She, on the other hand, preferred Cheerios or Wheaties...

As I see it, me eating that baby cereal was my way of bending to the mainstream advice to add a little cereal to dd's milk, though I can't say that it made her sleep any longer.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I say, if you feel a need to give your child baby food, you should start having more outer-course!


----------



## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> *gasp*
> you slut. I'll bet you were doing that just for fun, not even trying to make a baby!


I know, the nerve of us!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> Wait a minute -- what's that about homemade baby food? My girls never needed any baby food...it was breast all the way 'til they felt ready to take in more and more solids. This means that *no one* should *ever* need baby food...though I'll admit that I went through a phase of really enjoying the baby cereal that WIC gave us when dd1 was around one. She, on the other hand, preferred Cheerios or Wheaties...
> 
> As I see it, me eating that baby cereal was my way of bending to the mainstream advice to add a little cereal to dd's milk, though I can't say that it made her sleep any longer.


----------



## EJ Lang (May 1, 2009)

I made meals and my babys (when they were ready) ate what I made, starting with the veggies. Some babys start eating around 6 months some 8 months. Some people mash up sweet potato, bananas, peas, squash and things like that, I think of that as baby food, mashed or not.


----------



## tillymonster (May 12, 2011)

Hahaha. Wow, can this thread get any more offensive and OFF TOPIC? This is why some forums need to be moderated, but that's just my opinion. *sigh*


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## BrascosPrincess (Jul 14, 2011)

as far as Breastfeeding vs bottle feeding goes i bottle fed mine i am just not comfortable with breast feeding, but i have no problems with people that do it, and im not going to verbally attacking someone for chosing to do so. it was just in my comfort zone.

Homemade baby food vs in a jar i always bought it in a jar, but mine never ate baby food hardly at all as soon as they had a few teeth they wanted what i had.

Milk vs non-dairy babies depends on the baby, whatever is best for someones child is what i believe they should have.

Stay-at-home vs working mama's i am a stay at home mother but that doesnt mean that i look down on working mothers. staying at home full time and having a job and rasing kids are both the hardest jobs anyone could have.

like i said above i am a stay at home mom but i also think that it is great if a mother wants to return to work, it is all about what she wants to do and what she sees best. I wanted to stay at home with my children because I wanted all the quality time i could get and with my husband working overnight it just seemed easier. when i was in the hospital after giving birth to my youngest daughter i cried all night long the first night and all night long the second night because i was away from my daughter. I understand where you are coming from with crying at your desk.. It is very hard to be away after not giving yourself some space from your children. Your right everyone does do things differently its all about what is best for each individuals children and what works for that family.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Some of the choices we make are because we see these issues as extremely important, as important as not smoking around your kids. This can make hard to watch another mother do what we disagree with. But we feel so strongly, that our choices have huge impacts on our kids. We want the world to be a better place, and if only EVERYBODY made the same choices then.... (Did I just say the same thing 4 times?)

I used to snicker at parents who drove their kids around for naps. I never did, but now I get it! I still can be judgmental, though. I didn't mean to imply that I'm enlightened or anything, just that I understand a little better the struggles of raising kids. I won't say which camps I reside in, and I apologize for skipping to the end without reading the posts.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> Some of the choices we make are because we see these issues as extremely important, as important as not smoking around your kids. This can make hard to watch another mother do what we disagree with. But we feel so strongly, that our choices have huge impacts on our kids. We want the world to be a better place, and if only EVERYBODY made the same choices then.... (Did I just say the same thing 4 times?)
> 
> *I used to snicker at parents who drove their kids around for naps. I never did, but now I get it! I still can be judgmental, though*. I didn't mean to imply that I'm enlightened or anything, just that I understand a little better the struggles of raising kids. I won't say which camps I reside in, and I apologize for skipping to the end without reading the posts.


oooh, girl. Sometimes, driving around is the ONLY way to get my DD to sleep. I never understood why parents did that before I had a kid that will literally stay awake for 16 hours at a time with NO NAP.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> oooh, girl. Sometimes, driving around is the ONLY way to get my DD to sleep. I never understood why parents did that before I had a kid that will literally stay awake for 16 hours at a time with NO NAP.


Indeed. Sleep deprivation, being ON without a break, hunger (I learned to eat my food in about 15 seconds when DD1 was a baby, and unfortunately I still do!), health scares, seemingly endless screaming, etc etc. can induce parents to make decisions they would have never dreamed they would make, simply to maintain their own calmness and sanity.


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