# At wits end... 5 yo. still having HORRENDOUS tantrums



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm honestly at my wit's end here.

My dd was born a very very intense child. Always screamed, never quick to laugh or cry, just a crankpot in general.

At the age of five, she still has horrendous temper tantrums. All the time. Over EVERYTHING. I'm close with a few others who have kids this age. They don't do this sort of thing. She just whines and complains and screams and cries CONSTANTLY. I can't stand to be around her any more. And the more I despise being around her, the more guilty I feel, and the more guilty I feel, the less I am able to handle the situations as they arise.

She just DEMANDS things 24 hours a day. I honestly can't have five minutes without her screaming and crying about something. I've been working on this since she was TWO YEARS OLD, and it's not changing. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of trying. I simply cannot deal with it. Now when she starts to whine or tantrum I just feel my blood boiling and I have totally lost the ability to think or deal rationally. I recently just started flying off the handle and totally freaking out because nothing is working. I cry and feel miserable all the time because I feel like a total failure as a parent and as a person, in general.

She's fine if I'm paying attention to her 100%. But if I need to take a break or do ANYTHING that doesn't include playing with her, she acts out like crazy. I am only human. A very flawed one at that, being bipolar and having the attention span of an ant.

I don't know what to do. After three years of dealing with this on a daily basis, I have totally lost the ability to cope rationally. Please help!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

So you are saying that if you give her attention, then she acts "normal"?

In other words you see a clear pattern of:

No attention= screaming and inappropriate hysterical reactions

Attention= Mostly typical, more age appropriate reactions while you talk/play together

Because if that is the case, I strongly feel there is nothing *wrong* with her, and this is something she has control over and is doing because it works for her.

Is she in preschool?

I am a homeschooler but if I were dealing with what you describe I think my gut reaction would be to swiftly and firmly reclaim my space and force my child to see that they can and WILL learn to control themselves in my absence.

If she is in preschool how does she behave with teachers?

If she isn't, I would find either a two day preschool or a small home daycare she could attend one or two days a week.


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## TwinMom (Dec 27, 2001)

Have you considered food allergies? If my son has dairy, he turns into the monster you've described. HOURS-long tantrums, incessant demands and whining, etc. BUT, if we don't give him dairy, he is a sweet kid who acts like that occasionally, but no more than any other typical 3-year old. It might not be dairy for your daughter, but is it possible it could be a food allergy like that?


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## freedom (Feb 26, 2002)

Food allergies was my thought too - my son completely flips when given a food he is sensitive to. Another thought is birth trauma or prenatal issues - they are finding that babies are very affected emotionally by many influences in the womb such as maternal stress and birth trauma like c-sections. This is also true for my son. We have been doing therapeutic work on this and he has been improving.
We just tried a new homeopathic and Ds has started sleeping well (no night terrors) for the first time ever.

No idea if any of this is relevant to you - i just wanted to give some thoughts. I so sympathise with you - it is so painful and agrivating dealing with the turmoil these little ones feel. An attatchment specialist said to me "they are trying to let us feel what they feel". That helped me regain my empathy when I feel like screaming and grabbing and throwing a fit.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *freedom*
Food allergies was my thought too - my son completely flips when given a food he is sensitive to.

























I have a thread somewhere here about MY 5-yo's tantrums -- in fact, I used the words "at my wits end" too. We've since confirmed that it's dietary -- no high fructose corn syrup, no tantrums. Hardly surprising come to think about it







since if *I* consume high fructose corn syrup I tweak out pretty much like a 5-yo myself over the slightest stress.

DEFINITELY look into food correlations.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

The OP hasn't responded yet, but if I understood what she was saying,
I don't think that is how a food allergy works. If you are feeling allergic you are easily set off by anything.

Being totally hysterical and then completely rational the instant you get what you want isn't allergic, it's manipulative. Especially if the pattern is very clear and consistent. If she were allergic, she'd still be emotional and falling apart whether or not she got what she wanted.

The op said they had worked on this for 3 years, I just assumed they had looked at diet, but if not, I agree she should.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

ITA with heartmama.

A question: How does she act with other people? Say, if she is with her father or grandmother, does she require constant attention from them too, or is she better behaved?


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

My older dd was also prone to amazingly intense and long tantrums when she was 4 and 5. We used Martha Welch's book "Holding Time" on the recommendation of a family friend who is also a therapist.

You might want to see if your public library can get a copy and read it. It is not for the faint of heart, but it improved my daughter's behavior and general level of happiness almost overnight.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Lucky that's why I wondered if she went to preschool. I wanted to know if she behaved with the teacher. That would be a big piece of information. So would her behaviour with her father, babysitter, grandparents etc.

If this is something she "saves" for mom, IMO it is absolutely a discipline issue.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

She is very comfortable with her preschool teacher and she has been having these whiney, scream-y tantrums there, too.

Yesterday, I put my foot down and got really firm with her. I sent her to my bedroom for some "thinking time". After a few minutes, she settled down. I went in and firmly explained that if she needed to flip out, she needed to come in here and do it where no one would be affected. That if, after a warning, she continued her behavior with me, she would get a time out and one favorite toy or priviledge removed for two days. She seemed almost happy and relieved that I was instituting a guideline for her.

I was talking to my dh about this and he said he was the same way as a youngster. His mom was very "soft" - no clear and direct consequences for negative actions. He actually thrived in school when he was her age because he had strict guidelines with direct consequences. It was the only place he'd "behave".

I just feel like I failed, because I don't want "discipline" to include "punishment". If this works, I somehow don't feel like I'm living up to the GD "standard", ya know?

As far as food allergies... yep, tried it. We still steer clear of preservatives, dyes, corn syrups, etc. anyway for obvious reasons.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Well that is great though, that you can see she needs clear boundaries and that you can provide them.

She obviously feels safe with you. She can handle it if you set limits and follow through.

I've never felt that being gd meant it was up to my child to decide how I could be treated. I will be treated with respect. That is NOT negotiable. Disrespectful talk won't get a response. If he keeps it up he gets a one line reminder that I don't like to be spoken to that way. If he persists I leave the room, and if necessary, cancel all activities we had planned together until he apologizes.

It goes both ways. I talk respectfully to him, and if I don't, he quickly and firmly reminds me. "Mom, the way you said that was rude and hurt my feelings" is something I have heard more than once.

It's not about punishment. It's about boundaries. I won't be friendly with people who are rude and disrespectful towards me.

Period.

Making my child an exception isn't showing him the respect *he* deserves. He is a smart, intelligent kid. He knows how to be respectful. He knows it is hurtful when he isn't.

Setting clear boundaries and expecting him to do the same has made this a non issue, thankfully, but it did take the initial bumpy ride before he understood the process.

Your dd is 5, and obviously, that is plenty old enough to understand boundaries. Ds was 3 when we began working on this, and the only real problem was memory. He needed many more reminders and explainations at 3 than a 5 year old would to finally "get it".

Good luck!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
If this is something she "saves" for mom, IMO it is absolutely a discipline issue.

While this may or may not be the case with the op's child, I do not believe this always to be the case. When my dd is having trouble (emotional, social, sensory--she has SID), she can force herself to hold it together when she is not with people she trusts. But then, when we are alone, watch out! It all boils over, and she will let it ALL out on me, cause she trusts me. But it wasn't a discipline issue at all. It was a sensory issue, and when that issue is managed, the negative behaviors disappear.

Candiland, if you are finding something that works, that is wonderful! I am glad things are moving in a better direction. I, too, strive to parent without punishment--but I think there may be room for adding a consequence when you are feeling like the alternative might be screaming and ripping your hair out, lol (I've been there....). Just make sure that she is also learning the *appropriate* ways to express her wishes and desires and problems, so that she isn't stuffing her emotions to avoid punishment (but I bet you've been doing that all along







)


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

The problem is, she refuses to *talk* about what she's feeling and what she needs/wants. I tell her on a daily basis that we use our words, and that we can come to a compromise that both of us agree with. It's like talking to a brick wall (again, I've been using variations of the "talk" theme since she was 2.)

It's pretty manageable when things ARE negotiable... but she expects absolutely everything to be negotiable all the time. Sometimes I simply don't have the time and energy to spend an hour working something out with her. I don't think that it's realistic.

Much of the time we work out some sort of compromise... i.e, "Ready to wash hair?" "No, can I have five more minutes?" "Okay, five more minutes, and when I come back I'll wash your hair..." and I come back and she screams and yells like someone is trying to kill her, totally oblivious to "words" and reason. Honestly, we all have our bad days.... but this is ALL THE TIME.

Today, we did the compromise in the bath that I mentioned above. I went back in, she totally flipped out, wouldn't calm down, so I took her out, wrapped her in a towel, and said, "Okay, we're done." She screamed and cried at the TOP OF HER LUNGS and her two yo. brother was napping. She wouldn't shut up. I thought I was going to absolutely kill her. I managed to not yell, but the insanity was so intense I was literally shaking. I also have an ulcer, so the stress causes me physical pain, as well, which certainly doesn't help the situation.

What do I do in that situation? Do I let her disrupt the family and "let it out"? She refused to go in a separate room, so I picked her up and put her in there. I followed through as I carried her off, saying, "No bike for two days." Then she just kept yelling her little head off.

Should I just stick with that? And discuss it afterwards? Or is it incredibly callous to stick her somewhere alone when she's freaking out like that?


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

shameless bump


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

It is my belief, that children are simply not as rational as we would like, especially when it comes to dealing with their parents.

To pretend that they are is not IMHO, "respectful" it is instead "disrespectful" of the true nature of a parent/child relationship which is special. It is disrespectful of that relationship IMHO to treat the situation like, and analogize to a relationship with a spouse or friend.

I absolutely "allow" my dd's to talk to me in a way that I would never allow from other people. This does NOT mean that I like it, or don't make it clear, at some point, that I don't like it.

But I would never not respond to my kids just because they were behaving badly. I think when you are asking your kids to do something that they don't want to, and you allow yourself to become involved with issue about how they are responding you are getting sidetracked unnessecarily. Instead, I deal with the issue, and later, BUT only later, discuss rudeness etc....

I also do not expect my kids to act rationally. I think that when you say "OK another 5 minutes" that is fine. Your problem, is when you the expect that they will say "Oh thanks for the 5 minutes, now I will cheerfully go and take my bath." That's not how kids work. They don't want the bath (or whatever) and they will try what they can to get out of it when they are in the safe and loving presence of a parent.

The "trick" for me is to understand this. To not expect rational behavior and to not get upset when I don't get it.

My personal parenting philosophy comes from the books by Anthony Wolf. Take a look at them. Maybe the will resonate with you.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Oh, Candiland - that sounds so, so difficult - I'm really not sure how to handle it (I know that's not a lot of help, but I wanted you to know that I really feel for you).

I do think it's OK, at her age, to let her know that if she is going to flip out about an agreement she made previously, that she will need to do it away from the rest of the family. She is old enough to understand that.

When I think my children might try to go back on a previous agreement, I always let them know before hand what the consequences will be (i.e., 'You've agreed to have a bath after you finish that game. If we don't get a bath directly after the game, we won't have time to read our bedtime stories before bed.' That's not a great example, compared to what you are dealing with, but you know what I mean).

So I might let your daughter know beforehand that, if she is unwilling to have her hair washed when you get back, she will need to get out of the bath immediately...or whatever else you think is an appropriate way of dealing with the situation for the two of you, you know?

It sounds like you are negotiating with her, but that somehow you are coming to solutions that don't really suit her. So when it comes time to hold up her end of the bargain, she is backing out, because she didn't really like the original bargain in the first place.

Would it be possible to get HER to come up with solutions when you are negotiating, and try to pick one of her solutions, rather than you coming up with them? Easier said than done with a 5 year old, I know (I have one of my own!) :LOL - but if your dd is more on board with the original 'compromise', it might be easier for her to follow through with her part of the bargain.

Maya43 - I'd love to know what you would do in the bathroom/hairwashing situation above - any insights? I've read Wolf, and do like a lot of what he says, but I'm not sure what he would suggest in the above situation.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

maya - I hear what you're saying, but I don't think a five year old should be allowed to treat another human being like crap all the time. Like I said, we all have bad days and off days. Kids DON'T act rationally sometimes. Sometimes is okay. But I don't think a five yo. should be able to treat someone like crap all of the time and mom act as though everything is honky dory, know what I mean? That just teaches them that they can treat anyone any which way they choose, be it mom, dad, a teacher, a friend, whatever, and that there aren't any consequences for such behavior. I don't want my kid to be known as the brat. And that is where we are heading.

I don't know... is it okay to talk out a compromise and then never follow through with it? What is the point of open communication if your child talks it out and then still won't do what they have to? Do you just let them "get away with" whatever they want because they are irrational? It's funny, b/c my five year old is the most rational child I know. She thinks about EVERYTHING... she is more analytical than most adults I know! She never believed in fairies or monsters. She asks about the nature of God and the proof that "It" exists... that sort of thing. Without any conversation or prompting whatsoever.

I just read through my post and realized it looks like I've taken offense or something because I'm asking so many questions. That's not the case at all







I'm genuinely curious because I'd like to find a good balance between respecting her as a child and getting respect in return.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

Would it be possible to get HER to come up with solutions when you are negotiating, and try to pick one of her solutions, rather than you coming up with them? Easier said than done with a 5 year old, I know (I have one of my own!) - but if your dd is more on board with the original 'compromise', it might be easier for her to follow through with her part of the bargain.
mommiska - We did this last night. She still needed to wash her hair b/c the day before, she refused. She said "hmph, the only way I'm washing is if I get to sit in the kitchen sink." I said no, you are too big for the sink, but we can play hairdresser and wash your hair in there. "No, that's the only way I'll do it." K, remember how we talked about compromise? We need to come up with a solution we can both deal with. Any other ideas? "No. I'm not washing then."

I said, "Remember the talk we had today about speaking respectfully? You may have a choice between showering, bathing, or washing your hair in the sink. You need to wash your hair because..." and I explained the flea situation in our house (we have three dogs and a cat) and how her hair looked very dirty, blah blah blah. When she still wouldn't budge, I said, "Okay, if you cannot act appropriately, I will have to treat you like a baby. I will take your clothes off and put you in and wash you myself. Do you want to choose or shall I?" I was very calm and direct, there was no tension or anything there. She "gave in" and I promised a quick bath... I lathered her up and rinsed her in five minutes.

I've decided that on things that are non-negotiable, such as washing hair or riding in a booster seat, I can talk it through with her and compromise. But if she refuses to try and find a compromise, I will give her one warning then decide "for" her.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

And lastly







(I'm trying to break this up here b/c I have so much to say).....

by letting her screaming and whining "get" to me, I give her a reaction. That energy that I feed her only keeps the problem alive. I have decided that when she starts to freak, I will kindly remind her to speak to me about it and that we can discuss it, no problem. If she just can't pull herself together, I will follow through with what I wrote about before... put her in my room where she can let it all out and then come talk with me when she's not feeling so out of control.

That way, I am not punishing her for being "irrational"... just showing her that screaming at people is not okay and that if she needs to let it out, she needs to go somewhere and cool off before we can talk again.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
But I don't think a five yo. should be able to treat someone like crap all of the time and mom act as though everything is honky dory, know what I mean? That just teaches them that they can treat anyone any which way they choose, be it mom, dad, a teacher, a friend, whatever, and that there aren't any consequences for such behavior. I don't want my kid to be known as the brat. And that is where we are heading.

I don't know... is it okay to talk out a compromise and then never follow through with it? What is the point of open communication if your child talks it out and then still won't do what they have to? Do you just let them "get away with" whatever they want because they are irrational? It's funny, b/c my five year old is the most rational child I know. She thinks about EVERYTHING... she is more analytical than most adults I know! She never believed in fairies or monsters. She asks about the nature of God and the proof that "It" exists... that sort of thing. Without any conversation or prompting whatsoever.

I just read through my post and realized it looks like I've taken offense or something because I'm asking so many questions. That's not the case at all







I'm genuinely curious because I'd like to find a good balance between respecting her as a child and getting respect in return.

I did not take offense at all. These are intereting questions and I will be happy to answer them as best I can.

First, I really think that the comparing a child's relationship with a friend/teacher whatever with their relationship with their parent is not really good or useful.

Children who behave well at pre-school as your is doing, and are problems at home are clearly showing that they absoultely are picking up on the difference with these realationships.

I am very influenced in my beliefs by the works of Anthony Wolf (The Secret of Parenting.) I agree with him that people operate in two modes. One is a mature mode. As he says, its a child's mature mode that hangs up her coat every day at school, while its her other one which he calls the baby self that throws that same coat on the floor at home (I know some people don't like the "baby" term but I find it useful). In other words, when demands are made on kids outside the home, they use their mature sides to comply. At home, they often don't.

In any event, you don't have to "like" your kids bratty behavior at home. You can make it clear you don't like it, but the key is to not get caught up in it when you are making demands on your child (which usually brings out the baby self).

Let me give you an example of two ways to deal with the same problem of her and the bath. See if you think I am "letting her get away" with anything in my "right way" scenario.

WRONG WAY;

YOU: DD time to take a bath

Her: Let me have 5 more minutes and then I will

You: OK........Ok 5 minutes is up lets take your bath

Her: No

You: But dd you promised. Go get in the bath

Her: No. You are so mean

You: No I am not, you promised, no take your bath

Her: I HATE you

You: Dont' say that

HEr: why not, you are

etc.....

RIGHT WAY

YOU: DD time to take a bath

Her: Let me have 5 more minutes and then I will

You: OK........Ok 5 minutes is up lets take your bath

Her: No

You: Its time now get in the bath.

Her: No. You are so mean

You: Yep. get in the bath

Her: I HATE you

You: Well, sorry its still time to take your bath

Her: screaming, crying.

You: (ignoring it and gently taking off her clothes) here we go.

Next day when she is calm....

You: Yesterday, when I asked you to take your bath, you gave me a hard time and were rude. I did not like it. I don't like when you talk to me like that and don't want you to do it.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

:

Candiland~hug I think there is nothing you have decided to do is "bad" "wrong" or against GD. The thing you need in your house right now is peace. I support and agree with your choices so far. I have two 4 year olds who are very much like your dd. Mine have special needs tho, so we have to take that inso consideration with them, and they are both unique to the way they each respond to them. I know it's exhausting.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

May43 - interesting. Candiland - do you think that approach would work with your dd?

I also wanted to say that I totally agree with Charmarty - it sounds like you have made some good decisions about how to handle these behaviours that are respectful of both your dd and yourself.









Definitely, some kids are harder than others!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I do want to say that my "approach" will not ensure that your child will never be "bratty."

Its purpose is to keep interactions focused on the matter at hand (the need to take a bath) rather than the way your child is reacting to it.

By discussing it later, you let your "expectations" be known. You don't ever have to let those "go" But you must understand that they will not always be met. Yet they always remain in place.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Okay, maya, I got ya!









In your first post, I thought you were saying "kids are irrational and it's okay that they don't listen and it's disrespectful to expect them to do what you say."

Now I realize that you meant DON'T REACT TO THE EMOTIONAL BEHAVIORS and continue to do what needs to be done. I wrote:
"by letting her screaming and whining "get" to me, I give her a reaction. That energy that I feed her only keeps the problem alive."

So I totally agree with what you are saying.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Charmarty/Mommiska - thank you so much for the encouragement! My friends all have "average" kids.... that is, they are not super intense like my dd. Sometimes I feel very judged by her behavior, although it may be in my head. Your support is very much appreciated.

Maya, thank you for your words of wisdom! Sometimes when I'm caught in the thick of things I just can't think rationally. Thanks for your advice.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I really relate to candiland's experience. We just went through a hair washing experience that was so horrible that my dh and I were both trembling by the end of it. I have seriously considered cutting dd's hair very short just to reduce the time spent on hair washing. Gracie is only three years old, and loves baths, and we had not had a hair washing tantrum for over six months, since we started using a minishower for hairwashing. This one took us by surprise. She had refused hair washing for days, but finally, it was so bad that we just *had* to wash it.

I am terrified that she will continue to act like this for years to come. She has been intense from birth and never plays by herself, even for a second, and rarely naps. She needs constant, full spotlight, attention almost all the time. She did have a really rough birth ordeal.

My second dd is so laid back by comparison, taking long naps, playing alone from time to time, etc.


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## mischievium (Feb 9, 2003)

Hi candiland,

The only thing I have to add is that perhaps the taking away of a toy/ priviledge for the next 2 days is too delayed and too long of a consequence for your daughter at this point. I understand that this is in combination with an immediate consequence, but I'm afraid that it might end in a situation where your daughter is constantly receiving some sort of consequence and feels like she can never get a clean slate or a chance to be "successful" for awhile-- does that make any sense? From your posts it sound like she having problems/outburts everyday-- is that right?
If that's the case, then one day she has a good day and is able to confine her outbursts to your room (which I think is an absolutely fine boundary for you to set) and is able to cooperate and do what she needs to do, then she still has the two previous days' worth of consequences like no bike and no favorite toy-- it just seems like for a 5 year old, she might start feeling defeated, like no matter what she does she's never going to be able to get all of her priviledges back, so why try?

Maybe confining the consequences to the same day will help her feel like each day she has a new chance, each day she can choose to try and manage her feelings better and her efforts will be recognized?

Certainly you know your daughter best in terms of what makes sense for her and I understand that I may be misunderstanding how you are working consequences with your daughter.

Just my thoughts.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

candiland, hmmm, i'm reckoning you've read "how to talk..." and "raising your spirited child"? i have a copy of "how to talk..." that i keep in the bathroom for a quick read. my dd1 is almost 4 and dd2 is 1 so we have close to the same age spread. i lose it with dd1 way too often, but occasionally i'll hit on something successful.

with the negotiation of a compromise have you ever tried the technique from "how to talk" where you write down all ideas? if you have and are familiar with the book skip this part, but if you haven't i think it's a great technique. i'll do my best to explain on the off chance you haven't read the book. hope i don't sound too know-it-all-y 'cause i'm far from it.

i don't do this a lot and i don't think it will stop a tantrum that's all ready in full swing but in my experience it can diffuse one that's on the verge of beginning. what you do is explain to dd that you and she are having trouble reaching an agreement, say over the wanting to wash hair in the sink. you announce that you're going to write down all of her ideas and your ideas and see if you can problem solve and reach a solution. writing down is key. it helps dd feel like she's being taken seriously. the way the technique goes you explain that you will both give ideas to solve the problem and you will write them all down even the ones you don't like. there's no criticizing of ideas while you're still coming up with them, but when you've exhausted all your ideas then you go back together and cross off the ones that won't work for either one of you. let the child go first with her proposed solutions. urge her to come up with as many ideas as she can. after she's said a few you can toss out a couple. when you're both done go back over the list and cross off the ones that won't work. dd gets full cross off veto power, too. your list might look something like this:

Hair Washing Problem

1. get in kitchen sink to wash hair
2. don't wash hair (remember everything is fair game)
3. wash hair in tub
4. wash hair in shower
5. play beauty parlor in sink
6. wash hair outside with th hose (as long as it's not freezing)
7. wash hair tomorrow
8. wash hair with special cup
9. wash hair with mommy's shampoo
10. wear bathing suit in the tub and pretend your scuba diving while washing hair

take turns crossing off until there's one left that you can both live with. the book explains it better, but when in the heat of negotiation i have remembered to do this it has prevented a power struggle from developing. it really diffuses the situation and helps my dd feel like her ideas are valued and that she has the power to cross off some of mine! 'course you have to have some TIME to do this which can be in short supply with a little ds around, but it does help us when i can do it. i think the last time i tried it i was juggling dd2 and writing with a crayon on construction paper while negotiating with dd1.

in the first instance in the tub after the 5 more minutes, i have found that a lot of times if i "announce" that "it's time to..." do whatever that is a trigger for dd and if instead i will just start doing whatever needs to be done w/o announcing then she doesn't always go ballistic. i often often forget this, too, though.

more later gotta run...


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

so the only other thing i was gonna add is when i have my wits about me and the shrieking hasn't gotten on my last nerve and turned me into Cranky Mama and i actually try to respond with empathy (even if i'm wanting to run away -- far, far away) i find that dd really responds. the shrieking and hollering is just sooo hard to listen to that i'm not often the mama i wanna be. if i sit beside her , though, and say, "you sound really really upset and mad" and just try to empathize with her w/o necessarily "giving in" to the tantrum it really helps. i'm sure you've done all this, but just thought i'd throw it out there. this thread has motivated me to try to come back around to GD and not holler at my kids (yikes







) . i really am on the GD bandwagon, but find my buttons get pushed easily some days and Cranky Mommy emerges and then things are not good.

hope things continue to improve for you, candiland.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

On the issue of five minutes: my son is nearly 2, so a lot younger, but I set a timer. I say, "In five minutes the timer is going to beep and then I will have to do X." When it beeps, he gets up and goes with me to do whatever it is, no problem. So far!!!

He has no idea, I would guess, how long 2 minutes is. I remember that when my mom would tell me it was time to go home from my friend's house when I was four and five, that time had no meaning. It was really impossible for me to know how long 15 minutes was, because 1) I didn't wear a watch and didn't have a good sense of time and 2) she was really inconsistent!

Anyway I realize that's only one issue, but you could use it any time you make an agreement to do something in a certain amount of time--you could even leave the timer where she can see it, since she's maybe old enough to tell time a little now.


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## mommyjones (Jan 10, 2005)

It sounds as if your daughter needs to be trained. I know how you feel because I didn't train mine right away either. Please read the book "To Train up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl. Please! You and your family NEED this book!

www.nogreaterjoy.org


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyjones*
It sounds as if your daughter needs to be trained. I know how you feel because I didn't train mine right away either. Please read the book "To Train up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl. Please! You and your family NEED this book!

www.nogreaterjoy.org


i know this is going to be pulled off soon, but UGH. Please stay away from a GD board.


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## mommyjones (Jan 10, 2005)

Also...

www.atriptothewoodshed.com

Excellent forum!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyjones*
Also...

www.atriptothewoodshed.com

Excellent forum!


Maybe if you are training a dog...

Quote:

When my crawler or toddler reaches for something I don't want him to have, I tell him "No" (in a regular, not yelling, voice). If he doesn't listen, I give him a small swat with my open hand on his diapered bottom. It is a light swat, but firm enough to get his attention. He'll probably turn and look at me. I look him in the eye and say, "No, don't touch". If he leaves it alone and crawls off, that's great, and I'm done until next time. Usually he won't, he'll reach for the object again. I'll say, "No, don't touch", or just "No", and give another small swat. I continue this until the child chooses to obey me. It is not hard for a child as young as one (or even younger) to understand what you want. The object is to convince them that they must obey you. I don't take the object away. I don't take the child away. I don't distract them. I just stick to it until they choose to obey me. It may take a while at first, but in my experience, if the child is small, it will usually only take a few minutes. The older the child, the longer it is likely to take, since they have already been trained/taught by experience, that they really don't have to obey mom. If that is the case, you will have to convince them otherwise, by outlasting them, and doing so every single time thereafter. If they are a little older the first time you do this, then it may take a while. If you are consistent to correct them every time thereafter, they may test you a few times, but very soon they will begin to obey you right away.
Oh, wait- it would be abusive to hit a dog this way.

You know, this is a no-spanking web site, right?


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## mommyjones (Jan 10, 2005)

Read the WHOLE book. The WHOLE BOOK.


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## mommyjones (Jan 10, 2005)

Hey, I'm just trying to give an alternative. Seems like her daughter is pretty intense and GD is not working.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I have actually, and it has been discussed ad nauseum on this web site.
Perhaps if you search the archives, you could get a feeling for the general consensus of this community on this particular book.
I bet you really like the Ezzo books, too.


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## mommyjones (Jan 10, 2005)

Is Ezzo a type of discipline or a series? I've never had those.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Okay, I know some people here won't be receptive to what I'm going to say, but here goes....

Candiland, you mentioned that you are bipolar. My ex-husband is bipolar, and so is the son we had together. He behaved much like your daughter does when he was that age. Having a bipolar parent increases a child's likelihood of being bipolar by about 30%, IIRC. My son has the misfortune of having one biological parent who is bipolar, and another who has ADHD.

Symptoms in bipolar children usually differ from that in adults, which is why so many are misdiagnosed as ADHD or just called "spirited," "oppositional," "difficult," etc. I read that the average amount of time between onset of symptoms and proper treatment for bipolar disorder is ten years. That's a huge portion of a child's life.

Ds (Jakob) does not have the classic ups and downs most people think of when they hear "bipolar." He suffers from hypomania, which is basically an ever-present and chronic degree of irritability..... which is why we dealt with constant tantrums and meltdowns over EVERYTHING until he was about nine years old. He rarely acted out around others.... was always a charmer at school and with his friends' parents. I asked his shrink how, if he has a mental problem, can he control it that way? The doc mentioned that I had experienced severe depression in the past, and asked me if it had interfered with my job or my interaction with acquaintances or the general public. I then realized that my emotional disturbances only affected my relationships with people who I was very close to.... so that answered my question.

Jakob started on an anti-depressant when he was nine and that was the first somewhat normal year of his life. He now takes an anti-depressant and a mood stabilizer, both in low doses, and is as stable as any pre-teen boy can be with all those hormones rushing around.

Anyway, I'm not saying that you should assume your child has a mental illness. I'm saying that it shouldn't be discounted, especially considering the child's family history. Just because your kiddo behaves when she gets her way doesn't mean she's purposely being manipulative. I know that's hard for some people to understand. I read all the parenting books for "high needs" or "difficult" kids. We went through family therapy and counseling. We tried the Feingold diet. None of it helped.

I would just hate to see your family go through what mine went through. The first decade of my son's life was full of anguish, both for him and the rest of the family.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyjones*
Hey, I'm just trying to give an alternative. Seems like her daughter is pretty intense and GD is not working.

Whacking her won't work, either. Kids like that just get angrier and more hostile when you hit them (which is an appropriate reaction, anyway).

And I'm ashamed to say this, but yes, I know from experience. GD did NOT work with Jakob because he lives in an alternate reality. Of course, I didn't know that at the time. I just thought he was an insufferable little monster and couldn't for the life of me figure out why he acted the way he did. So when I got to the end of my rope and nothing else worked, he got spanked. Which did nothing more than infuriate him and make me feel guilty.

Edited to add that some really intense kids (whether mentally unstable or not), are not thinking clearly when they are angry and really don't remember behaving so badly later on when they've cooled off. It makes it really hard to learn from consequences when you have thought patterns like that. My kid has even expressed the wish to die before and insists he never said that. He has broken furniture and doesn't remember doing it. Luckily, he's never been physically hostile to living creatures or people.


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

HI all

Just wanted to add my 2c. I posted a very similar (used the words at wits end also LOL) thread in Childhood years forum about my own 5 yr old dd who's behaviour is lately horrendous. I have read Spirited Child but not all that stuff works.

May43 you're ideas are great. I do this sort of when able to think clearly and lately more and more...simply put, she can rant and rave on and on but my latest mantra is "it simply HAS to be done, and what HAS to be done GETS done.." and she also has slowly started to say it and agree. She may not like it or me but she is learning more now how I refuse to be disrespected and will fire out punishment now, as much as I want to practice GD it isn't always possible in every situtation and I think you'll ruin your chances of any sort of proper discipline trying too hard to be a GD mom etc. I have been there. I end up being more like her *pal* than her mother. No more.

We don't spank, but I am guilty of yelling-alot.







: But you know? Desperate times, and we as moms tend to react emotionally than logically when we have children underfoot etc. You do your best.

I wrote out a list for my dd and printed them out for her. One is a daily chore/to do list and one is a good behaviour=consequences/punishments list and she can read them on her own and has asked me to place them everywhere she is so she can be reminded. Maybe this is an idea for you?

We're a work in progress but I got some more great ideas from this thread and I am happy I found it.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyjones*
Hey, I'm just trying to give an alternative. Seems like her daughter is pretty intense and GD is not working.

This is the GD forum, however, and if you would like to participate you need to follow the ground rules.


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## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Shame, shame Mommyjones! Do you want support for treating your children with respect? Goofy discipline? Come on!

Candiland....I also have an intense child and I have a couple of good recommends:

www.qualityparenting.com this is a great program that teaches parents how to be assertive in setting limits while still respecting them.

I also really think that The Edison Trait is a book to really delve into - great suggestions for the high needs child.

I don't think that asking your child to rant in her room is punishment, but taking things away is.

You might try saying: "You are having really big feelings about this, so I want you to have them in your room. I will be right outside to help you if you need me."

Good luck...5 is a really hard age for girls....the Gisell institute has books called "Your 5 year old" and it may be helpful to read them to see if some of this is just age appropriate behavior.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyjones*
Hey, I'm just trying to give an alternative. Seems like her daughter is pretty intense and GD is not working.


There are many ways to GD. There are even ways to discipline that don't involve strict GD (time-outs, unrelated consequences, reward charts) but don't involve hitting a child.

Hitting someone to get them to do what you want is not moral in my opinion and the opinion of the GD board. Its not an option to get a child to behave.

To say GD is "not working for her" is silly. There are many GD methods she has not tried, I am sure one will work for her beautifully.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

mommyjones your spanking advocacy posting is not welcome here. Good bye.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

You know, isn't it funny how I could be arrested for hitting another adult, they could be arrested for hitting me, or I could get into trouble for abusing animals, but it's not against the law to hit your kid?







I just don't understand this......and this is coming from a reformed spanker. I never believed in it before I had kids, then my kids got out of control and I didn't know what else to do. Then my eyes were opened again and I saw it for what it really is, which is why I don't spank anymore. It's just crazy how it's abuse if it's done to an adult, but to some it's perfectly OK to do it to a child.


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