# punishing children by ruining other people's plans?



## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

I have had this happen to us several times now. One of my kids will make plans with another kid on a weekend, have everything worked out, then that child's parent/guardian will ground the kid and our plans are ruined.(or my daughter's plans...) This just happened yesterday...my daughter called my MIL several times the day before yesterday to work out some plans with my neice to take her and do some things. It is to be a group thing but all the timing and everything revolved around what and when my neice was allowed to do/go. So my MIL informed me yesterday morning that neice was grounded and couldn't go!!(for not getting up for school in time and being late for school) After my daughter spent all the time making these plans. Why do people think it's ok to do this to others? I feel it is very rude. And it's happened so many times. The rare times I've had to ground any of mine, if they already had very involved plans with someone I didn't cancel, I just grounded around that one event. (like my oldest was going to the military ball with her best friend, it had already been planned, so she was allowed to go but was grounded from phone/computer/future events) And when this happens, the other kids always keep their cell phones and are still on facebook all night, they are just grounded from whatever event they were planning to go to.

Do you guys think it's all right to punish your child by punishing other people? And how is it punishment when the kid is still allowed to text and chat online?


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

I think more than likely the parents are not looking beyond their own child & family - really just not considering how it is impacting the other child.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

I think the other parents are focused on what is important to their own child, and not thinking about so-called collateral damage. It is a shame that they aren't thinking beyond this. I'm not sure about the chatting on-line thing. Chatting to whom? Perhaps they think the physical event was what was important and they don't think beyond that. Not sure given the limited facts. It is a wake-up call for me, however, when dealing with my own DD. Sometimes as parents we are so focused on our own children that we tend to forget how certain things affect others.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

No, in this situation I do not think it is right to punish your child by also punishing other people. I also believe it is really rude and inconsiderate to break plans unless someone gets sick or there is a family emergency or something like that.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

We've never really had it come up but maybe they feel the event is pretty important to the child so it will have an impact on them to be house bound. I doubt they are thinking of how disappointing it is for the other people or that it will even keep other people from doing what they want to do.

Sorry you are frustrated and your dd is disappointed. Have you said anything to them about how frustrating it is from your side?


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

I don't see it as that big of a deal. If I decide my child can't go to something that has been planned, there's a good reason for it. It usually means that DS (so far) is not in a mood that would allow him to go or some other important reason.. I don't do it arbitrarily.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

I think it is rude and would be a big deal to me. My kids are young, so their friends are not being grounded yet, so I haven't run into it the way you're describing. But, I have, plenty of times, gone to a play date and had the other parent threaten to leave if their child doesn't do whatever. Nine times out of ten, I've learned, parents don't follow through with those kinds of threats (a whole 'nother problem), but there have been a couple of times that we were burned when the parent did follow through. It was so disappointing to my ds. 

I also once had a friend call and ask us not to come to a birthday party *as we were getting in the car* to go because ds had gotten lice like ten days earlier (and it was most certainly gone by that point). Wah! Now that I think of it, this happened like 2 years ago. lol But it scarred me. I'm still not over how sad he was. It's a different situation, but that same sort of impotent feeling of someone disappointing your child for a reason you feel is very unfair. Obviously I'm still angry about it. I would be PO'd in your situation, too, OP.

Otoh, I don't punish, so it is unlikely I'm going to have great empathy for someone telling me they are hurting my child by retaliating against their own child for something.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

This has been teens/preteens(age 12+). I rarely have grounded anyone, the major time was when my 15 year old had a guy over while we were not home. That required some heavy-duty serious grounding from us. They get so much freedom, but that was definately something she KNEW not to do. There were other circumstances that made it so wrong that I won't get into here. That's off-topic but my point is while I rarely punish my children, I wouldn't ground them from something that someone else was counting on that child for. It's not a matter of a young child not in the best mood for a birthday party.

The texting and chatting thing, these kids when grounded are not allowed to go to some event, but are allowed to be online chatting with their friends all night and texting them. That's what I had meant. It's like their parents don't mind putting other people out and ruining their plans, but they still let their grounded child do everything else.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

The lice thing would have offended me also, considering it had been 10 days before the party!! That's plenty of time for it to have been taken care of. We have struggled with lice and ever since I have been really stubborn about not letting my young daughter share helmets at softball or whatever. Other people seem to have no problem with it but I sure do LOL


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

When we ground our oldest it is usually from one thing that is important to her. If she were grounded from going somewhere, she would still be able to talk on the phone or get on the internet. We don't do just a blanket grounding from everything. Also, I wouldn't completely rule out making her cancel a pre-planned event depending on the circumstances. For example, if she were being really sassy and having a bad attitude, there is no way I would allow her to go to her friend's sleep over. I hate her friend would be disappointed but parenting my child is more important.


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## kathrineg (Jan 28, 2009)

I would always be upset with my friend for acting the fool and getting grounded.

I think that was only the case because my friends had reasonable, fair parents, so if they got grounded it was because they did something really bad that they knew they shouldn't have done. In one case, they took their parents' car when they had no license. In another case, they left their sibling alone without dinner while they were supposed to be babysitting.

So basically disappointing peers was a part of the punishment, and we were not angry at the parents. Nor do I feel that it was rude of the parents. It was rude of my friends.

They would not do this for something like being slow to get out of bed!


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kathrineg*
> 
> my friends had reasonable, fair parents, so if they got grounded it was because they did something really bad that they knew they shouldn't have done. In one case, they took their parents' car when they had no license. In another case, they left their sibling alone without dinner while they were supposed to be babysitting.
> 
> So basically disappointing peers was a part of the punishment, and we were not angry at the parents. Nor do I feel that it was rude of the parents. It was rude of my friends.


This is how I see it too. I think it really depends on the situation. When my kids were younger, I barely took privileges away, ever, and found it bizarre idea that a child was supposed to learn not to repeat what they did Tuesday by skipping going to the zoo with us on Friday (for example). And when my children were young they were easily disappointed and confused by other parents doing things like this.

My kids are teens now, and if they did something bad enough that I felt that the shouldn't leave the house for during the weekend, fun with friends would definitely be off the calendar for them. They had some plans canceled by a friend this summer for something similar -- the teen had been told to clean his room before he could go do X, which was several days away. He didn't bother to clean his room. He didn't get to do X. My DDs thought it was funny, but weren't mad about. They thought he was a fool because his mother had been very clear.

How other parents discipline their children isn't something for me to judge -- for one parent, a grounded child can communicate with others, for another they can't. One mom I know grounds her children off electricity. They are stuck with no tv, computer, stereo, phone etc. Every body does it a little different.

If you just let it go, you'll be happier. Being upset is just keeping you upset. It isn't bothering the other parent a bit. Although you plans were canceled, you and your DD still had a day to do what you wanted to. Your day wasn't ruined -- it just got wiped clean to be made into something different than either of you expected.

It's not a bad thing for our kids to learn to change gears and flow with little disappointments.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I haven't had to deal with this in awhile because my kids are old enough now that they don't have a lot of parties or playdates, but young enough that they don't have an active social life. So they don't get grounded from things, they just get their computer taken away these days. When they were younger, I might cancel an outing, but usually that was when we had planned a trip somewhere ourselves and they weren't behaving. The trip might get postponed a day or so, or if it was a reward, it might be taken away. I wouldn't impose a grounding when we had plans to do something right then, like go to a birthday party, or what have you. Now if my child was sick or just in such a bad mood that going would have been bad, I might cancel, but usually I'd wait out the bad mood, talk about the issues and then go to the event. I don't really think I felt punishment was needed in the early years, but if I was trying to impose a negative consequence, it would usually be the loss of another privilege or possibly future outing--like if they wanted to go for ice cream or something. The most common situation was that my daughter would be in a really bad mood and not behaving well, and we might cancel our weekly playgroup outing, but no one was particularly waiting on me, and it was better for my daughter's emotional state to do this.

One time I was pretty ticked off at my older daughter who was about 6 or 7, and was thinking of not letting her go to a birthday party, but then that seemed like a rude thing to do, and really, what I wanted was not to impose a punitive thing, I just wanted her to do the thing I asked her to do. And, really, it turns out that she's usually OK with not going to a social outing--she didn't really care if she didn't get to go to the party, she didn't see it as a reward for good behavior, it was just part of our life. Choosing not to go to that would have been an arbitrary punishment that didn't really teach a good lesson, and would have the added negative of not following through with a commitment. Sometimes I think the canceling of plans as a punishment is really just the easier way to do things for the adult, but it's not necessarily the best consequence or punishment. I was also trying to teach my children to be respectful of others, and we don't like when people cancel at the last minute. The only reason to cancel would be if they child's behavior was so bad that she couldn't go and be a good guest, but that was not an issue. And at their current age, my kids would far rather I keep them from a party than take away their computers for a week.

Now with older kids, I feel like it's a different situation. Like if your teens are just doing egregious things, you might have no choice but to really crack down on all their activities. But, given the little I know of this situation, I wouldn't have my child cancel weekend day plans with other people because she was late for school; this isn't really teaching her responsibility in my opinion. I'd probably make her go to bed earlier or do other things that helped her learn to be on time or what have you. But if she really wanted to do the group thing, I suppose this could be a negative enough consequence to stick with her. Somehow, though, I have a feeling she'll continue to have problems, especially if her cellphone or facebook privileges aren't ever taken away. I don't really see how this kind of punishment is going to help her become more reliable and responsible, but that's just my opinion, of course.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Ehh, I've had a friend ring up before a playdate and ask us not to come over, because her DS was being naughty. It wasn't exactly a "grounding" situation, more like "he's going to be a terror, I'll spend the whole playdate disciplining him and having someone else around will just make me more stressed out". Which I totally get. With little kids, playdates are usually pretty fluid anyway - I've often organised "We'll come over if the baby has had a good sleep"-type playdates with SIL, for instance.

Plus, this particular friend was notoriously flaky, so I'd already warned DD that the playdate might not happen.  She was a bit disappointed, but not heartbroken (I think because she was intrigued and somewhat smug at the idea of the other kid being naughty!).

I have quit a park playdate early because of DD's bad behavior, and I felt bad about it; but it was with SIL, and I knew she'd understand. She's had to do the same thing with her DS from time to time. Plus, it really worked - DD responds much better to "If you're not going to behave nicely we'll go home" now, because she's seen me follow through. So SIL will reap the benefits of future less-stressful playdates.

With older kids, I get your point. It does seem unfair to punish your child's best friend, or mess up a parent's birthday place settings/loot bags/whatever. But it also seems counterintuitive to chauffeur a misbehaving child to a treat, especially if his/her behavior was likely to be bad at the event. So I can see why people do it. My parent always threatened to, and I HATED it - every time I was invited anywhere, I knew Mum would hold it over my head for the rest of the week whenever I was naughty (which was, ahem, often). I don't remember her ever following through there; I think she was too concerned about what people would think. And I kind of despised her for that. So it wasn't the greatest system...


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Something similar happened for ds' 7th birthday. His best friend was invited, and come the day to the party, his mother showed up to help, but ds' friend was at home. They'd grounded him from the party because he'd run away (around the block) when they'd told him to come home, and it took them 10-15 minutes (of sheer panic, I'm sure) to find him. But I was really ticked. Ds was really really looking forward to seeing this friend (they live across town) and was really disappointed when he didn't come. I was disappointed in his parents. I couldn't understand how making their son not come to ds' birthday party would help him learn not to run away.

But in the end, it wasn't my kid and it wasn't my discipline choice. I love his friend's parents, but they've made a number of parenting choices (especially discipline) that I wouldn't have.


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

My oldest DD is 6, and we've (very rarely) left place due to behavior. One stands out in my mind, at about 3.5 yrs old she was being difficult in a pizza place to the point that I felt it wasn't fair to other diners and after several gentle reminders about behavior in resturants we packed up her food and left. It wasn't a punnishment perse, but was because she wasn't able to behave in a way that was appropriate at that time, so we ate the food at home and tried the same resturant again (at her request) the next day.

my closest friends and i have ALL left each other's homes at one point or another due to our older kids behavior... I DO get that it can be disapointing to the friends, but there are the rare times that my child's behavior isn't appropriate for our location and we don't stay there anymore. This has happened only once, but it made a big impact on her. I also think its important to use the social aspects of this type of thing to help the child make proactive behavior choices, like reminding them that their friend would be disappointed if something were cancelled, or taht the other parent might be less likely to invite them over again.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Plans sometimes just change and it is something I have taught my dd to live with. During things like birthday parties there are always so many people that one or two parents not letting their kids come isn't a big deal. When parents cancel a playdate I assume it is for the best. My dd has been to playdates that I really should have canceled because I knew they weren't going to go well based on her mood before playing and she has had friends who came over even though they really should have stayed home, so I have seen how a parent worrying too much about a reaction they think may exist can cause more harm than good. I would much rather have the parent cancel and help my dd deal with her emotions about that than have a child over who really isn't in a mood that is conducive to a group activity.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

I don't see it as a big deal. Parents are parenting THEIR children they way they see fit. At 12+ the kids are old enough to know that sometimes kids do stupid things that end up with them not being able to follow through with planned events, even if it messes up their friends' plans.

Not all children are allowed to still go on whatever device they normally would when grounded either. My 12yo has had her phone & ipod taken away from her, but still been allowed on facebook because I can control when she goes on facebook.

While being grounded for not waking up in time & being late to school may seem minor to someone, if my dd was consistently doing this she'd have consequences & not being able to go to something because of it may be one of them.

Teens/preteens are very social creatures & it is easy to be social through phones/facebook, but actually going to a planned event is often a bigger deal(and thus not being able to go even bigger) than having facebook/phones taken away.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think only worrying about your kid's feelings (vs. the other child's safety or discipline) is just a different side of the same coin.

Very rarely, I have had to discipline a child that way. The phone calls area always uncomfortable, especially one particular time with one mom who is quite frankly gossipy and hypercritical (of adults). If I had to do that particular interaction over again, I would have lied and said my kid was ill, so that I didn't have to deal with her crap.

I guess I don't understand if you wouldn't be thinking daggers at someone for breaking a playdate because their kid puked in the car on the way over at the last minute, why you would feel free to do so with someone enforcing a limit who is unwise enough to be honest with you about it and gives you advance notice. Can you not see that the intent is to be polite, honest, and respectful of you?

I also have a child who finds disappointment and change hard to deal with (harder than it should be, age appropriately, that is). I do understand how much of a pain in the ass it is when someone has to cancel, because I've had to deal with the fallout as well (granted, she'd be just as disappointed if something was canceled for a fever of 105 OR grounding). But I guess I really don't see the point or the value (or the help either) of looking down one's nose at someone who is kind enough to be honest and upfront with you instead of lying.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Something similar happened for ds' 7th birthday. His best friend was invited, and come the day to the party, his mother showed up to help, but ds' friend was at home. They'd grounded him from the party because he'd run away (around the block) when they'd told him to come home, and it took them 10-15 minutes (of sheer panic, I'm sure) to find him. But I was really ticked. Ds was really really looking forward to seeing this friend (they live across town) and was really disappointed when he didn't come. I was disappointed in his parents. I couldn't understand how making their son not come to ds' birthday party would help him learn not to run away.
> 
> But in the end, it wasn't my kid and it wasn't my discipline choice. I love his friend's parents, but they've made a number of parenting choices (especially discipline) that I wouldn't have.


I cannot imagine allowing my child to attend a party if he had purposely run away from home & hid from me as I frantically searched the neighborhood for that long for him.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I think it is good for everyone to be more mindful of ruining other's plans for a minor offense that could maybe have punishment handled differently, but also to have respect for and give the disciplining parent the benefit of the doubt too. I know I was usually disappointed in my friend for doing something to get grounded that ruined fun for us, but occasionally I would be mad at the parent(s) for grounding for something that seemed so minor. But looking back, I probably often did not have the full story either and even parent to parent I might not get the full story as some things are kept just between the family. So I do think there are folks who tend to overuse grounding as a punishment and should take plans of others into consideration, but I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are doing what needs to be done for their family and I agree with others that there are situations where it is completely appropriate to ruin the plans of others because that is the appropriate consequence for the child.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Eh, it's happened to us a couple of times and I wasn't upset at the other parent. They were always apologetic when they called to tell me, and my response was always, "Oh, DS will be bummed, but I totally understand -- good for you for following through!" DS wasn't upset with the other parent for giving consequences either -- as another poster said, he was disappointed (appropriately, IMO) in his friend's behavior.

I never issue a threat of not going somewhere fun unless it's very deserved and unless I fully intend on following through, and so far we've never had to cancel plans over stuff like that, but it could happen (it could have happened in the past if my kids hadn't decided to get their act together once I let them know that there was a chance we'd be staying home) and I hope my friends, knowing my character and parenting style, would know that it was for a damned good reason.

Now, if I had a friend who arbitrarily threatened skipping fun activities at the drop of a hat and frequently cancelled on us over silly stuff, I can see how that'd be frustrating, and I'm sure there are parents out there who do that, but IME so far, my friends have been considerate of other parents and other kids, and have only used this consequence in situations that merited it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I haven't punished, but OTOH my older dd had tantrums until she was 5 or so, and I had to cancel at the last moment because she was in the midst of a tantrum that could last 45 minutes or so, and it just wasn't possible to go out. That isn't a far cry from canceling due to bad behavior as a punishment. I don't know how I feel, because on one hand, it is unfair to basically punish you as well, but OTOH if the child is having a bad day, the parent might know that play date/event won't go well anyway.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Quinalla, your daughter is beautiful!


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> No, in this situation I do not think it is right to punish your child by also punishing other people. I also believe it is really rude and inconsiderate to break plans unless someone gets sick or there is a family emergency or something like that.










I try to follow through on plans when others are counting on us.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

is this for a 12 year old?

maybe for a younger child i would feel bad, but not for preteens and teens.

i mean i look around me and this is the 'norm' where i am.

while yeah it is disappointing, its not that big a deal for me.

heck i might be one of those parents myself when dd gets to that age being the person she is.

yeah it does suck but i would not find it rude. for me its sympathy for parents dealing with teenagers.

some parents are really good at dealing with teenagers. some are'nt. some struggle to be the best parent they try to be.

yeah we've had a few cancelled playdates and dd has been upset... but we found something to do to make her understand.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

yeah lynn it would SUCK!!! i would be very disappointed for my own child. but being in the other parents shoes nor would i have let their son attend the party.

instead i would have done something later to make up for it. like had a special sleepover for the boys in whichever house it was convenient in later.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Something similar happened for ds' 7th birthday. His best friend was invited, and come the day to the party, his mother showed up to help, but ds' friend was at home. They'd grounded him from the party because he'd run away (around the block) when they'd told him to come home, and it took them 10-15 minutes (of sheer panic, I'm sure) to find him. But I was really ticked. Ds was really really looking forward to seeing this friend (they live across town) and was really disappointed when he didn't come. I was disappointed in his parents. I couldn't understand how making their son not come to ds' birthday party would help him learn not to run away.
> 
> But in the end, it wasn't my kid and it wasn't my discipline choice. I love his friend's parents, but they've made a number of parenting choices (especially discipline) that I wouldn't have.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Letting others down is tough to do but if my child needed to be grounded.. they would be grounded and I would stay home to make that grounding stick.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

My seven-year-old ran away a few weeks ago and there's no way I would have loaded up the car after that to take him to a party.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TCMoulton*
> 
> I cannot imagine allowing my child to attend a party if he had purposely run away from home & hid from me as I frantically searched the neighborhood for that long for him.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Polliwog*
> 
> My seven-year-old ran away a few weeks ago and there's no way I would have loaded up the car after that to take him to a party.


Ah, but see, what I didn't make clear was that this wasn't an immediate consequence. He'd done the running off thing 3-4 days EARLIER. I don't blame them for a strong consequence, I blame them for not telling me ahead of time, AND for imposing a consequence that I didn't feel was at all related. And remember, this child was SIX, not twelve.

Truth be told, I have a really hard time with grounding as a discipline tool. The only time I can see using it is if a child has abused their privileges around being out. But most people I know who use grounding do it for things like not getting homework done, or sassing back. That kind of pure punishment seems pointless to me. I see nothing logical about those consequences. That's what bothered me about my son's party (the consequences didn't relate to the 'crime') and in the OP's situation, it seems to me that it was general punishment, not related to the outing at all.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Ohhh, thanks for clarifying. I agree with you about 90% of the time and had to double check who the poster was. I assumed it was the same day.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Ah, but see, what I didn't make clear was that this wasn't an immediate consequence. He'd done the running off thing 3-4 days EARLIER. I don't blame them for a strong consequence, I blame them for not telling me ahead of time, AND for imposing a consequence that I didn't feel was at all related. And remember, this child was SIX, not twelve.
> 
> Truth be told, I have a really hard time with grounding as a discipline tool. The only time I can see using it is if a child has abused their privileges around being out. But most people I know who use grounding do it for things like not getting homework done, or sassing back. That kind of pure punishment seems pointless to me. I see nothing logical about those consequences. That's what bothered me about my son's party (the consequences didn't relate to the 'crime') and in the OP's situation, it seems to me that it was general punishment, not related to the outing at all.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Ah, but see, what I didn't make clear was that this wasn't an immediate consequence. He'd done the running off thing 3-4 days EARLIER. I don't blame them for a strong consequence, *I blame them for not telling me ahead of time*, AND for imposing a consequence that I didn't feel was at all related. And remember, this child was SIX, not twelve.
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Truth be told, I have a really hard time with grounding as a discipline tool. The only time I can see using it is if a child has abused their privileges around being out. But most people I know who use grounding do it for things like not getting homework done, or sassing back. That kind of pure punishment seems pointless to me. I see nothing logical about those consequences.


I'm with you. I grounded ds1 once, when he was 12 - he got home from school at 7:15 (his school got out at 2:40), and we'd had no word from him about where he was or who he was with. Grounding seemed appropriate in that situation. OTOH, he had a friend who got grounded for everything...not finishing his lunch at school, forgetting to take his ADD medication, not doing homework, and I can't even remember the rest of it. I think he spent half his teens grounded for something, and it almost never had anything to do with something he'd done while he was out of the house.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

So much depends on the exact circumstances -- ages of children, degree of planning/depending on someone else, amount of advanced notice would all make a difference. I would have to take it case-by-case when it involved my child and another child.

However, I had a regular (every Thurs. evening) teen babysitter for a while who was routinely grounded from sitting for us at the last minute -- I think mostly for not finishing her homework, which she could easily have done while she was watching my kids do their own work that evening, plus our evening was done at 9 PM and she could have finished after that. I could not for the life of my understand how you could keep a teen from a job, especially when that meant that 2 adults also missed their obligations due to last minute sitter cancellation. After it happened the third time in two months I was forced to fire sitter. I was so angry at the parents for being inconsiderate.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
> 
> However, I had a regular (every Thurs. evening) teen babysitter for a while who was routinely grounded from sitting for us at the last minute -- I think mostly for not finishing her homework, which she could easily have done while she was watching my kids do their own work that evening, plus our evening was done at 9 PM and she could have finished after that. I could not for the life of my understand how you could keep a teen from a job, especially when that meant that 2 adults also missed their obligations due to last minute sitter cancellation. After it happened the third time in two months I was forced to fire sitter. I was so angry at the parents for being inconsiderate.


Wow. That's odd.

We used to have a sitter who lived next door to us and was often grounded (in her case, it was usually very reasonable), but our house was one of the few places she was allowed to come when she was grounded. She used to come over and just talk and hang out when she wasn't even sitting.

Her mother thought I was a good influence.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
> 
> I could not for the life of my understand how you could keep a teen from a job, especially when that meant that 2 adults also missed their obligations due to last minute sitter cancellation. After it happened the third time in two months I was forced to fire sitter. I was so angry at the parents for being inconsiderate.


Your anger was misplaced. You should have been angry at the sitter, her actions made her unavailable to sit for you. She knew the consequences of her actions and she made the choice to mess up... you should be happy other parents are trying to keep their kids in line.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Your anger was misplaced. You should have been angry at the sitter, her actions made her unavailable to sit for you. She knew the consequences of her actions and she made the choice to mess up... you should be happy other parents are trying to keep their kids in line.


Dang, I wish someone would ground me from working!







That aside, I still think the parents are ultimately responsible for the type of grounding, and the effect of grounding her from babysitting was essentially handing out punishment to third parties who were relying on the babysitter's services. I've been in situations where I've need childcare and there is a different set of ramifications when someone doesn't pull through. I put that on a different level than playdates and birthday parties. I don't argue with the point that her actions made her unavailable to sit for the PP, but the parents could have been a little more sensitive about the results. They were the ones in control of the means and methods.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Wow, I totally would not be offended/mad at parents doing what they think is best to deal with their child's behavior. I don't see it at all as "punishing my kid", even though my kid may well be and has been disappointed by a change in plans.

I also take responsibility to know my kids' friends' parents patterns as best I can. There are many who would only cancel if something serious was really up. Then there are those who can't be bothered to be on time or call if they're going to be 2 hours late or not show up at all. Basically I communicate to my kid about plans depending on who I'm dealing with, and with the parents who are regularly cancelling, I either don't tell DD at all that we might meet up with them (and if we do it's a nice suprise) OR I tell her it MIGHT happen but it also might not. Or... I just stop making plans with those parents.

I find most parents are on the side of only cancelling if they really feel like their kid either can't play nicely when they show up, or their kid had choices, consequences were explained ahead of time, and their kid made choices that meant they now didn't get to play with my kid. I am NOT mad at the parents for that, I think that's fair and really the point is only going to be made about consequences if the child loses something they actually care about. That choice is simply not about me and dd, although I appreciate greatly when parents do take that into consideration (i.e. inviting dd over for another playdate at the time they cancel).

The whole "grounding the sitter" thing really is weird to me though, that seems to be about more than just discipline, unless there is a regular pattern of that child not doing homework even when she knows it will mean she can't babysit. But that is an actual work situation too and in *that* case I do think the parents should realize that in a way there is a contract there between the parents and the sitter, and the other parents are relying on that agreement to go somewhere... that seems like maybe not the best way to punish.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

My ex-SIL used to do this all the time. In her case, I think many of the issues were hers. It was her way of controlling our family's interaction with her kids.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> I think it is rude and would be a big deal to me. My kids are young, so their friends are not being grounded yet, so I haven't run into it the way you're describing. But, I have, plenty of times, gone to a play date and had the other parent threaten to leave if their child doesn't do whatever. Nine times out of ten, I've learned, parents don't follow through with those kinds of threats (a whole 'nother problem), but there have been a couple of times that we were burned when the parent did follow through. It was so disappointing to my ds.


I HATE this. I have one really good friend who does this all the time. And you know, what, I think I'm going to say something to her about it. It's just rude to me and my son. Especially because we live out of state and they don't see each other that much. If the behavior is really that bad, then you should actually leave when you threaten it. But it's not over really bad stuff, it's just stuff that is annoying to her.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Okay I've only read the first page, but really? So I am supposed to not parent my own child because it might upset yours? Really? Let's give an example. Say my 9 year old has plans to go to a move in the evening with a friend. During the day she mouthed off horribly and refused to clean her room even though that had been one of the contingincies for being allowed to go to the movie. So.... I am supposed to allow her to go anyways because it might disappoint YOUR child? I am trying very hard to wrap my mind around this logic but it is still not making sense to me. My job as a parent is to raise my child the way I see fit. In my house if you misbehave (like in the example, mouthing off and refusing to do what you were supposed to) you are not getting away with no consequences. Parent your child the way you see fit and the rest of us who expect our children to have consequences for their actions will do the same.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> Okay I've only read the first page, but really? So I am supposed to not parent my own child because it might upset yours? Really? Let's give an example. Say my 9 year old has plans to go to a move in the evening with a friend. During the day she mouthed off horribly and refused to clean her room even though that had been one of the contingincies for being allowed to go to the movie. So.... I am supposed to allow her to go anyways because it might disappoint YOUR child? I am trying very hard to wrap my mind around this logic but it is still not making sense to me. My job as a parent is to raise my child the way I see fit. In my house if you misbehave (like in the example, mouthing off and refusing to do what you were supposed to) you are not getting away with no consequences. Parent your child the way you see fit and the rest of us who expect our children to have consequences for their actions will do the same.


Thanks, I said something similar, too.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> Okay I've only read the first page, but really? So I am supposed to not parent my own child because it might upset yours? Really? Let's give an example. Say my 9 year old has plans to go to a move in the evening with a friend. During the day she mouthed off horribly and refused to clean her room even though that had been one of the contingincies for being allowed to go to the movie. So.... I am supposed to allow her to go anyways because it might disappoint YOUR child?


I think it might depend on the age of the children involved. If the kids are really young (say, younger than school age), it is hard to change plans at the last minute. You work so hard to get them ready for a play date, turning it off at the last moment can be difficult. And yes, I think that being courteous to others should play into your decisions. But for a school aged child? Absolutely I think its OK for plans to need a change as a consequence of behavior. And certainly if a child is behaving in a way as to be unsafe then that would also matter.

Of course, I think that parents should also take into account the magnitude of the plans that are being interupted relatively to the offense being punished. Calling off a major big deal (say, amusement park trip) for a relatively small offense (say, not remembering to do a chore) might be overkill. And if its something that another parent spent more than a couple of dollars on, then the cancelling parent should reimburse the hosting parent. I got left holding a $50 theater ticket last year with a too-late-to-find-a-replacement cancellation and I was really angry. Sure, discipline your child as you see fit, but it shouldn't cost me money!

And I still hold that a paying job (be it "real" or babysitting) is a different story entirely.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Thanks, I said something similar, too.


I'm thirding that post.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't see how you can make plans with your kids at all without being flexible. Kids get cranky, sick, have tantrums, whatever, and plans change just because you're with a young unpredictable kid.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

In our family, cancelling an activity with a friend or relative as part of a punishment would involve getting our social circle involved in our family's personal business, and that's not something we like to do. Discipline is an internal affair for us.

That said, I'm sure my children are capable of doing something scary/dangerous enough for me to not give a god goshdarn if other people know they are being disciplined for it. It's just not a frequent thing.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Highly inconsiderate and unacceptable. I'd be pissed. If they must punish their kids, let them do it in a way that doesnt involve other people. Let me guess, if they are that inconsiderate to other people, i wonder what they are like with their own children :shrug


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> you should be happy other parents are trying to keep their kids in line.


I'm never happy to hear about punitive parents and kids being punished, it just makes me feel bad for them.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> I don't see it at all as "punishing my kid", even though my kid may well be and has been disappointed by a change in plans.


If my kid has a playdate with Johnny and Johnny refuses to eat his peas and is thus grounded and cannot have the playdate, it looks to me like Johnny and my kid are getting exactly the same punishment. What ends up happening then is that I have to find something *really fun* (ie, either expensive and/or requiring way too much energy from me) to do with my kid to make it up to him, so he is not experiencing this as being punished when I should have had a nice afternoon chatting with Johnny's mom while we sipped ice coffee and hung out at the playground.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
> 
> Okay I've only read the first page, but really? So I am supposed to not parent my own child because it might upset yours? Really? Let's give an example. Say my 9 year old has plans to go to a move in the evening with a friend. During the day she mouthed off horribly and refused to clean her room even though that had been one of the contingincies for being allowed to go to the movie. So.... I am supposed to allow her to go anyways because it might disappoint YOUR child? I am trying very hard to wrap my mind around this logic but it is still not making sense to me. My job as a parent is to raise my child the way I see fit. In my house if you misbehave (like in the example, mouthing off and refusing to do what you were supposed to) you are not getting away with no consequences. Parent your child the way you see fit and the rest of us who expect our children to have consequences for their actions will do the same.


Yeah, I wouldn't want to hang out with you or your child if this happened. I would feel sad for your child, but, if after I said to you, "wow that really f'd up our whole day and made my child sad, etc, I need for you not to cancel playdates unless there's a real reason you can't do it", you said "well I need to be allowed to be punitive to my child whether I have made plans with you or not," I'd have to really start steering my kid away from your kid. If a parent is feeling the need to exert their authority over their child, I think they should be able to figure out a way to do it that is not going to hurt my child and I don't want to leave my child open to that if I can help it.

Btw, I do expect my child to be relatively well-behaved and courteous, and he normally is very much so, but there is very little doling out of consequences here. I'm not sure if there have ever been *any* parent-originated consequences. Once in a while there might be some natural ones, but I'm not even keen on those unless they're fairly mild. I guess I'm saying this because of the last line of your post which seems so ... accusatory toward those of us who aren't so big on causing our children pain in the name of making them better people. I'd like to out myself as "one of those parents" in case I haven't already made it clear enough.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I had a friend do this constantly! I could understand a once in awhile thing for really important discipline issues but not on a regular basis. Rude.

That being said- age of kid matters. Situation matters.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I don't see how you can make plans with your kids at all without being flexible. Kids get cranky, sick, have tantrums, whatever, and plans change just because you're with a young unpredictable kid.


I don't see canceling because of being sick or even just not being up to it or because of crankiness/tantruming being the same thing at all. I don't even see the scenario of the little boy who ran away (as it was originally assumed that it had happened just before the party) as the same. If he had run away that morning, there would be a lot to say for making a big deal of it right then and part of that would be that social engagements would be cancelled. Those things are different than someone punishing a child by canceling plans with another child.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> Yeah, I wouldn't want to hang out with you or your child if this happened. I would feel sad for your child, but, if after I said to you, "wow that really f'd up our whole day and made my child sad, etc, I need for you not to cancel playdates unless there's a real reason you can't do it", you said "well I need to be allowed to be punitive to my child whether I have made plans with you or not," I'd have to really start steering my kid away from your kid. If a parent is feeling the need to exert their authority over their child, I think they should be able to figure out a way to do it that is not going to hurt my child and I don't want to leave my child open to that if I can help it.


To be honest, I'm not sure I could hang out with somebody who demanded that THEY be the final arbiters about what is a "real reason" for everyone else. I've had playdates cancelled and never felt guilt-driven or that I needed to give my child an expensive outing in order to "make up" for it. Also, I'm not real big on guiltripping, for not entirely rational reasons (had a mom who couldn't handle things if they weren't done her specific way, and would then lash out by telling you what a horrific mean nasty awful traitorous person you were for daring to disappoint her).

I guess I don't understand the fear/anger of having to deal with a disappointed child. Maybe my kids have just had an unusual life, but we've had many playdates cancelled because of sickness (either on the part of the parent or child or sibling), a last minute emergency, a soccer/game that ran late, car break downs, ect. Heck, even I have had to cancel fun plans with one or more of my kids due to similar reasons.

But, no harm, no foul. You have to do what you need to do for you and yours.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
> 
> To be honest, I'm not sure I could hang out with somebody who demanded that THEY be the final arbiters about what is a "real reason" for everyone else. I've had playdates cancelled and never felt guilt-driven or that I needed to give my child an expensive outing in order to "make up" for it. Also, I'm not real big on guiltripping, for not entirely rational reasons (had a mom who couldn't handle things if they weren't done her specific way, and would then lash out by telling you what a horrific mean nasty awful traitorous person you were for daring to disappoint her).
> 
> ...


I don't think I need to be the final arbiter about what a "real reason" is for *everyone*else*, but I do know that if someone is willing to hurt my kid because they think they need to hurt their own kid, then that's not a great relationship for us. I'm actually pretty open about what reasons I find acceptable. (And btw, I do feel that I am the final arbiter of what is acceptable to me in my relationships, I cannot even think of who else would be. Who makes the decisions for you?) I cannot think of anything else that is unacceptable to me (though I did once have a friend who would call in a fake-whiney voice and say she had a headache to cancel and that got old fast, for many of her friends). We have had plenty of plans cancelled on us and there have been times when we've had to cancel. That doesn't bother me. It's the canceling for totally unnecessary reasons when my kid is looking forward to something. I don't think that means I have some phobia of a disappointed child. I don't want my child to be unnecessarily disappointed. I love him.

And, fwiw, I suppose that there probably would be some situations where I wouldn't put my foot down about it. In this conversation and particularly in the post I was responding to, it seems like there's really no feeling on the punisher's end about what she is doing to the other parties involved -- like it's my kid and I need to teach him a lesson and I don't care how it effects some other kid who's hurt in the process. Heavenly's tone seemed incredulous at the idea that she would even deign to consider the other child's feelings for even a moment. If we were on the receiving end of that attitude, I would feel like my kid was really disrespected and I would just not be okay with that. Otoh, if a parent called me up and said they were having a really hard time with discipline issues and they wish they didn't have to but there was really no way around it... I might look at that a little differently. I would still think it was sucky, probably, but I would certainly have some sympathy with a parent who was just trying to get on track.

When I was nine I had a birthday sleepover planned, just me and two friends. They both cancelled at the last minute, one because she was grounded (don't remember for the other one). I still feel sad about it. It was a pretty rough time in my life all around (just moved to another state, didn't know anyone, etc), but that event sticks out. So it was not just a disappointment, but a disappoint in a generally unhappy and lonely life. Maybe I am overblowing the significance of a child's disappointment because what sticks out in my memory is this one really hurtful moment for me. But even if I'm blowing it out of proportion, it's not a small thing. When we couldn't go to that b'day party because of the lice thing, it was not a small disappointment for Milo. He had been looking forward to that party for weeks. It was going to be the first time that he was able to see his two best friends in several months. Of course I took him out to do something fun instead. Would you just tell your kid, sorry disappointments happen, why don't you sit on the couch and read a book? I bet you would have felt the need to come up with something fun for your kid to do in that situation.

I had kind of forgotten about this, but not too far back someone called to make a spur of the moment playdate with us -- with me and my 2 1/2 year old. We were going to go to the zoo and we were getting ready, she had called and said something like let's meet in an hour. While I was in the shower she called to cancel. She said her kids were annoying her in the car and she had told them if they didn't behave they were going to go home, and then she had to go home because they weren't behaving. So, I took my kid to the zoo alone since I had already told him that was what we were getting ready for. It kinda sucked. And it was completely unnecessary. It wasn't the hugest big deal in the world, but I do wish that she had thought, oh I made plans WITH SOMEONE ELSE, so I'd better not make threats that will lead me to messing up their day. In this case I was probably a lot more disappointed than Augie was -- he just wanted to go to the zoo, I was looking forward to hanging out with my friend. But I didn't sign up to go alone to the freaking zoo! Gah! I was irritated, but it gets under my skin much less if it isn't hurtful to my kid. I did feel though, that if this becomes any kind of a pattern, it just cannot be part of my life.

ETA: Sorry to add one more thing... but I am wondering about this:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> after I said to you, "wow that really f'd up our whole day and made my child sad, etc, I need for you not to cancel playdates unless there's a real reason you can't do it", you said "well I need to be allowed to be punitive to my child whether I have made plans with you or not," I'd have to really start steering my kid away from your kid.


You said this was guilt tripping, and I do certainly see where the other person might feel bad hearing it. I guess I am wondering -- and this is an honest, sincere question -- how I can communicate the crux of my message here to someone without letting them know that it was a sucky thing for me and my kid. Or should that not even been done? Maybe I err too far on the end of trying to be straight forward with stuff because I am afraid of getting stuck in unhealthy dynamics (in my family of origin sticking up for oneself isn't encouraged). I think my normal mode is to not say anything unless it's really important to me, and if it is really important to me, I probably don't sugar coat it because I just need it to be on the table.


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## purplerose (Dec 27, 2010)

I would much rather hear it straight out than sugar-coated. I wish we all were better able to communicate in that way.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> You said this was guilt tripping, and I do certainly see where the other person might feel bad hearing it. I guess I am wondering -- and this is an honest, sincere question -- how I can communicate the crux of my message here to someone without letting them know that it was a sucky thing for me and my kid. *Or should that not even been done? *


I think you can let them know your child was disappointed if you want to. It might feel like you are trying to guilt trip them, but if you need to say it, have the conversation and let the dice fall as they may. I would say that if I were the recipient of such a conversation after cancelling once I would feel like you were trying to guilt me - if I were the recipient of such a conversation after I had cancelled several time, I would fell a little guilty, and it might cause me to put future plans on hold until I had discipline issues sorted out as I really do not like being unreliable

I tend to think other parents know cancelling plans disappoints other children (heck - they are parents too and I do not doubt this has happened to them).

As per the bolded - no. Just no. You should absolutely not communicate to the other parents that "they should not ground when they have plans" as you are budding into their parenting. If someone called me and said I should not have grounded my child because their child was disappointed in missing a playdate, I would be very unlikely to make playdates with them in the future. I don't need to be lectured by other parents on how to parent.

My son has a friend who cancels with some regularity (less as he has aged, thankfully) for being "grounded." I think his parents overuse grounding, but it is not my business. I have had a couple of discussion with DS on how M. is not reliable. When he was younger, I would say "sure, invite M, but why don't we also invite T in case M cancels?" Cancelling plans is party of life - it is good to learn how to deal with it - and it is good to learn which friends are good for making plans with, and which are better for chatting on the phone/seeing at school, etc.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I can see how cancelling plans often would be an issue. However we just don't really know what other people are going through with their kids. We can make up all sorts of scenarios and explanations but really who are we to judge?

I would cancel plans and have before. I talked to the mom about it and she was actually on my side about the whole issue. When I cancelled I also rescheduled. And it worked for both of us. Kids really do understand these things. Especially when the consequences of their actions are clear. She can't go because she was told she needed to do this and she chose not to. DD1 has had this happen, she wasn't mad at the parents she was mad at her friend. She felt her friend had let her down.

There are facts of life, poor behavior shouldn't be rewarded. To expect it to be for your kids feelings... what is that really telling them?


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## VocalMinority (Apr 8, 2009)

It's a case-by-case thing. Good mothers are bound to disagree, at least some of the time, on what justifies grounding and what doesn't. And it's best if we moms try to give each other the benefit of the doubt!

My friend ("Jane") and I both have 4 kids in similar age-groups, so we get together and do things a lot - either as families, or with pairings of different kids. Jane has another friend with 4 similarly-aged kids ("Mary"). Many times, I've been frustrated by Jane grounding her kids and messing up plans for mine. And many times Jane has complained to me of Mary doing the same thing, to Jane's kids.

Here are the two glaring similarities I see: (Let's say "Mom A" is the one who grounds her kid; and "Mom B" is the one whose kid's plans become collateral damage.)

*#1-* Mom B *rarely* argues with the idea that lessons are better-taught right now. Instead, she feels the reason Mom A grounded her kid didn't rise to a level that justified disappointing Mom B's kid.

"If your son had beaten his brother with a baseball bat, *I could see* not letting him go to the movies with a friend, an hour later! But if he simply failed to make his bed, couldn't you come up with a consequence that doesn't punish MY kid!?"

This seems to be what the OP is saying: The grounded kid got up late and was then late for school. It's not like she shoplifted! Maybe her Mom could get her a louder alarm clock; or *force* her to leave on time for school, even if she wasn't finished styling her hair. But don't make your daughter cancel plans with *my* kid, who didn't do anything wrong!!

*#2-* When Mom A threatens her kid with grounding, she *always* hopes she won't have to follow through. Isn't that the case any time we punish our kids? We don't *want* them to *ever* suffer consequences. We want the risk of consequences to motivate them to do what they're supposed to do! But when that backfires, what's a Mom to do? Seem wishy-washy and ineffective to her own child, in order to placate someone else's? Maybe, depending on the circumstances. But it's certainly not an *easy *call. There's not only one right answer.

I *try* to remember not to use things as threats, if it would just be too awful to follow through (like not going to a friend's birthday party, or a sleepover, or any other "major" event). But sometimes a big threat seems necessary - either because my kid messed up in a major way, OR because something small has become chronic and no other consequences seem to be working.

I also *try* to remember that other moms find themselves in the same boat, and to assume they're making the best decisions they can, just like I am. I'm conscious that the hurt of watching my own kids be disappointed can really cloud my sympathy for what another mom's dealing with, with her kid.


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

This is a really interesting discussion.

I would be annoyed if my friend were constantly cancelling plans with me, for whatever reason. However, I really don't think that I get to decide what a good reason is for her.

When plans are cancelled with my family, my kids are sometimes bummed about it. I'm okay with this. I do (obviously) express my sympathy and will actively involve my kids in "Well, Jack's mom said they can't come to the playground this afternoon. Do you guys still want to go, or would you rather stay here?" ---- but I'm okay with my kids getting disappointed now and then and learning to get over it and through it. Kids who are never disappointed/having to come up with a solution are going to run into problems later in life if they've never learned to practice with the "small things".

Also, I don't want them to think that everything is All About Them. Jack not being able to come to the playground is not about my kids. It's about Jack. My kids have to deal with Jack's consequence, indirectly, but, bluntly, I think that that's life. How many times as adults have we had to deal with the poor consequences of somebody else's poor decision?

If Jack's mom constantly cancelled plans with me to punish Jack for not eating his peas, then I would probably find other friends to hang with because I like making plans and following through. However, to decide what is/isn't a "good reason" to cancel is totally not my problem or business. Honestly, I'm fine when other moms cancel plans even when the other mom just doesn't feel like getting dressed that day.  It's just not something I choose to worry about.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

If you'd tell someone that they ruined you and your kids WHOLE day because of a cancellation, over a one time off thing, then I think that's totally over the top. If you want to claim real honesty, I think you should be up front, when the playdate is scheduled: "You know, my kid and I don't handle disappointment well--if there's a cancellation it's really upsetting. This might seem weird to you, but that's how it is with us because of stuff that's happened in the past. Please don't break the playdate unless it's an emergency." That kind of also puts some of the responsibility of the feelings on you as well. Because your reaction to other people's feelings isn't all about them, or even all their fault--it does have some degree of responsibility in YOU.

Again, I concede that my desire to have someone who would react that strongly to a cancellation that didn't line up with their preferences to be willing to own their part is based off my own personal background and experiences (similar to you basing people who cancel playdates over anything other than what you would do is based in your past experiences). I never cancel playdates for stupid reasons, it has to be a big thing; and someone flipping their lid at me because of things that happened when they were a kid or other people in the past would pretty much insure that I never made anything but last minute plans with that person again (then again, sounds like it'd be one strike you're out for them too, so maybe that's a non-issue).

I'm human. The brutal, blunt truth of things is that there will be times when I will disappoint people. My kids, my friends, neighbors, everyone. And there are times when everyone in my life might disappoint me (let's hope not all at once, but even if it happened that way, it wouldn't be the individual's responsiblity that the collective failed me!). Hey, there have been times when I have told people "I'm fragile about this or that, so please let me know as much in advance as possible if this has to change" when I am. I feel that's only fair. Ultimately, I feel the responsibility of one's emotions and how you deal with it is the person who's feeling those emotions.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

While I think it is important for children to learn to deal with disappointment and changes of plans, I also think it is important for children to learn to take others into consideration. In the OP, it sounds as though plans were made and arranged around when the niece could go (so perhaps at a time that wasn't as convenient for the OP's daughter), so I can definitely understand being upset under those circumstances. When we make plans with someone, we may choose to do that over doing something else with someone else, or at a time or day which isn't the most convenient or a place which isn't the most convenient so we can accommodate the other person. We may rearrange our schedule for them. I understand how things happen to prevent plans from occurring, but i do think it is best to not cancel unless it is necessary (ie. illness or something). There are certainly enough "natural" times when plans have go be cancelled (illness, bad weather, car breakdowns) that kids can learn from to deal with disappointment and change of plans.

Also, I will say that I don't totally understand cancelling plans due to a bad mood, tantrums, having a bad day. When we are having a bad day, kids are having lots of tantrums, kids are in a bad mood, oftentimes getting out of the house and being around other people is EXACTLY what we need to turn the day around. I realize all kids and parents are different, but for us, if my kids are being cranky or having tantrums or not doing well, sometimes a change of scenery and being around other people can help a lot. For others, that may be difference, and if things are bad at home, they will be worse when out...but that hasn't been true for us.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia*
> 
> While I think it is important for children to learn to deal with disappointment and changes of plans, I also think it is important for children to learn to take others into consideration. In the OP, it sounds as though plans were made and arranged around when the niece could go (so perhaps at a time that wasn't as convenient for the OP's daughter), so I can definitely understand being upset under those circumstances. When we make plans with someone, we may choose to do that over doing something else with someone else, or at a time or day which isn't the most convenient or a place which isn't the most convenient so we can accommodate the other person. We may rearrange our schedule for them. I understand how things happen to prevent plans from occurring, but i do think it is best to not cancel unless it is necessary (ie. illness or something). There are certainly enough "natural" times when plans have go be cancelled (illness, bad weather, car breakdowns) that kids can learn from to deal with disappointment and change of plans.
> 
> Also, I will say that I don't totally understand cancelling plans due to a bad mood, tantrums, having a bad day. When we are having a bad day, kids are having lots of tantrums, kids are in a bad mood, oftentimes getting out of the house and being around other people is EXACTLY what we need to turn the day around. I realize all kids and parents are different, but for us, if my kids are being cranky or having tantrums or not doing well, sometimes a change of scenery and being around other people can help a lot. For others, that may be difference, and if things are bad at home, they will be worse when out...but that hasn't been true for us.


I'm going to assume we all know our own kids best. I know when it's likely to cheer a kid up to go out, but I also know when nothing is going to go well for my kid that day and it's best for us to stay home.

We have to be flexible in this world. It's part of dealing with life and other people. Sometimes plans change, and we aren't in control of other people or their reasons for changing plans. There's no way we'll agree with other people's reasons every time, and they won't agree with us every time either.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

I don't get grounding as punishment. Never have.

One of K's friends once asked how many times she'd been grounded and was baffled that she said "Never".

I believe in natural consequences. "Clean your room before you do X" is fine... it is clear, sets a boundary, and not getting to do X is a clear consequence to not following through. And "You have to have your homework done before you can do Y" is fine... it's another cause/effect thing. But grounding a kid because they break something? Or because they're being a jerk? That doesn't make sense to me.

When K was in early grade school, we had a few issues with homework getting done and getting turned in. We sat down together and looked at the reasons why homework wasn't getting done or turned in, set up a schedule that meant that homework had to be done before the TV went on, for example, and that if she opened her folder and discovered the previous day's homework in there, TV wouldn't happen that evening because turning homework in is part of getting it done. That was all logical consequences based on the fact that the number one cause of her not getting homework done at that point was that she would turn the TV on and get distracted and forget her homework. Making the homework come first meant the TV was a reward, not that lack of TV was a punishment. And it worked SO much better for us than anything more punitive. Instead of me being the bad guy, suddenly she was in control of things, and it was her actions, not mine, that determined whether or not she'd get to watch her shows.

In her teens, there were times when she would ask if she could go out with friends, and I'd ask if her homework was done, and if her answer was no, so was mine. But it was never "grounding" in the traditional sense. I didn't keep her home from previously planned events unless they'd been made contingent on homework in the first place.

For her, bad behavior and bad attitude often usually tied back to allergy, illness or another underlying issue, so we always looked for underlying causes first before resorting to punishment, and talking about the issues really helped because that's how her brain is wired. For example, she was having a bad attitude in her music class at school because she didn't like the music her director was picking, but I pointed out to her that she would soon be wanting special favors and to do non-standard things in her schooling that would require cooperation from her teachers, and that if she didn't treat them with respect, they'd have no reason to want to do nice things for her. Once she got that, her attitude turned around 100%. I could have yelled at her, or told her how she should behave, but once she understood WHY, there was no battle, no argument, just "Look, if you want people to feel generous toward you, you need to be decent to them and not be part of their bad day." And two years later, that same music teacher had the orchestra play a piece that my daughter wrote, and gave her a glowing recommendation.

Falling back on grounding is a fast way out... but it's also not very effective, and doesn't tend to change behavior for the long term.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

What works for one child, in one situation, may not work for another. Different kids are wired in different ways. I'm a big fan of natural and logical consequences.But sometimes the logical consequence of my child having a bad attitude is that I'm too tired/worn out to take him to an activity. Not being manipulative (in a Love and Logic kind of way,) but seriously too tired. I'm sorry that might disappoint someone else's child, but I'm one person. I do the best that I can.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Same as Polliwog...if my child is throwing massive tantrums in the morning that might make me reconsider a playdate or a party in the afternoon. Or even the next day. Their behavior is telling me that they're not in shape to be out in company. You can look at it as punishment or just common sense--why would I inflict a miserable child on your family/party? So for that reason, I have canceled our attendance at several playdates and one birthday party in DD's six years.

Now she is getting a little older, and we are struggling with her behavior at school, moving on to new issues to resolve! She had to go to the principal's office the other day, and we were supposed to have a playdate. I did cancel--and part of it was punitive, but the other part is the idea that if you can't behave and be kind at school, you don't get to then go over someone elses house and carry on as if nothing happened. Going to the principal equals a quiet afternoon at home and an early bedtime and the hope that with a little rest and reflection, the next day will go better.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Polliwog*
> logical consequence of my child having a bad attitude is that I'm too tired/worn out to take him to an activity.


I would cancel plans if i were too tired. But not as a form of punishment. I mean, if youre too tired, youre too tired, whatever the reason. Youre not a slave.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenrose*
> 
> I don't get grounding as punishment. Never have.


Just for background...i have an older son, nearly 15, who was never grounded (that i can recall), rarely if ever punished, radically unschooled, the whole bit. We talked things out etc.

I have a daughter who is 9 (and who was not raised as my son was, in fact she only moved in with me at age 8 and has a host of emotional and learning issues)...she is often grounded. One major grounding involved her choosing not to come home from her friend's house down the street (on another block in fact) until 10 pm and it was DARK. No phone call, nothing. She just got busy playing and "forgot", well thats well and good but the same thing happened the previous weekend and the one before that as well. I gave her tools to remember (such as telling the mom in the home what time she HAD to be home so she could remind her) and giving a watch, which she lost. I was SO mad about this, doubly so because the mom that walked her home acted like it was no big deal at all. My daughter needed something to make an impression on her, and that something was being grounded from going down there for a month and from lots of other things for a few weeks (favorite tv shows, candy that sort of thing.) I told her that if i cannot trust her to do what she needed to do (come home by 8 oclock which was a longstanding rule) then she needed to not be in a situation where she would consistently fail at following rules and until i felt she had gained that trust back she needed to stick closer to home.

As far as being grounded from some fun event due to bad behavior earlier in the week...if my child behaved badly all week...why would she get rewarded with some fun outing? I did not keep her home from a scheduled bday slumber party (even though i wanted to!) because i felt that might really disappoint the bday girl if she only had invited a few friends...had i known she had like twenty girls there i mightve made a different choice. Sometimes, with my daughter, its ONLY the "threat" of losing something she loves (such as outside play time, or some fun thing we had planned) that gets her to actually do what she is supposed to do. I dont LIKE being a punitive parent...i was a much happier mom hanging out at Dennys at midnight playing yugioh and discussing World of Warcraft when my son was younger but alas not all children are the same and therefore they may need different parenting than what one may be used to.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

Katherine, I wonder if maybe she's not ready for that much responsibility? My son just turned 8 and I cannot imagine in a million years that he'd keep track of the time or even be able to have the control to stop playing and come home if he was really having fun. I don't mean this to sound like I know better than you because obviously I don't know her at all or your situation, but as someone from the outside with no emotional involvement, my first thought was -- if she can't handle it then it might work out for everybody if you go and pick her up at 8 o'clock, or make arrangements with the other mom to bring her home then. Sometimes I feel like the best tool that I have in my discipline arsenal is the strategy of making sure I don't expect more of them than they can handle. And nursing, but that won't last too much longer...


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I respectfully disagree on the homework thing. I think refusing to provide transportation to "fun" *along with* grounding from electronics for non-school use, is a perfectly logical consequence for not completing schoolwork. Their job is learning. My job is to help them grow into responsible adults. I CHOSE school, school has teachers who issue homework. In the real world, if your boss asks you to do something by a certain time, you need to do that.

Now, that said, I think it is appropriate to play this card only after other attempts to help the child learn to balance work and play have only resulted in no work and bad grades. And it's appropriate for a very limited amount of time--they have to have the chance to prove they can be trusted again. (so, for example, there's weekend homework. You have set up an agreement with your child that they can go to XYZ Friday night, but then Sat. they must complete their work. Kid doesn't follow through, next weekend, they don't get driven to do something until that homework is done. Doesn't matter what it was, school and responsibilities have to balance with playtime.)

Oh and this is not really a card I'd play with my 6 almost 7 year old, who is now having his first experience with homework  It's my job to provide lots of opportunities to learn--at 6, it's much more appropriate to do something immediate like linking computer usage for the day and homework--you get the computer only after we complete today's work.

At 12---or teenage?? yeah, I'd be not driving somebody around who isn't being responsible and link it from one weekend to the next if necessary.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Ah, but see, what I didn't make clear was that this wasn't an immediate consequence. He'd done the running off thing 3-4 days EARLIER. I don't blame them for a strong consequence, I blame them for not telling me ahead of time, AND for imposing a consequence that I didn't feel was at all related. And remember, this child was SIX, not twelve.
> 
> Truth be told, I have a really hard time with grounding as a discipline tool. The only time I can see using it is if a child has abused their privileges around being out. But most people I know who use grounding do it for things like not getting homework done, or sassing back. That kind of pure punishment seems pointless to me. I see nothing logical about those consequences. That's what bothered me about my son's party (the consequences didn't relate to the 'crime') and in the OP's situation, it seems to me that it was general punishment, not related to the outing at all.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> Katherine, I wonder if maybe she's not ready for that much responsibility? My son just turned 8 and I cannot imagine in a million years that he'd keep track of the time or even be able to have the control to stop playing and come home if he was really having fun. I don't mean this to sound like I know better than you because obviously I don't know her at all or your situation, but as someone from the outside with no emotional involvement, my first thought was -- *if she can't handle it then it might work out for everybody if you go and pick her up at 8 o'clock, or make arrangements with the other mom to bring her home then.* Sometimes I feel like the best tool that I have in my discipline arsenal is the strategy of making sure I don't expect more of them than they can handle. And nursing, but that won't last too much longer...


The thing is....she managed it for nearly a year. She just didnt want to come home. And without getting into too much detail, there were alot of other things that happened and this was a "last straw" so to speak. The other two neighbor moms who walked her home acted like it was no big deal at all (and in fact were expecting that i'd agree to let her spend the night?!), which made the whole thing even worse. I mean what kind of parent lets a neighbor kid stay at their house until ten oclock at night (if that wasnt standard or prearranged)?! A note to other parents: When a parent makes a decision about discipline or to you "overreacts" about something, consider for a sec that maybe you dont know the whole picture. You might not know what the parent is dealing with. The neighbors think my daughter is "so sweet, so well behaved" but have no idea of the issues we face at home (and probably wouldnt believe me if i told them.)


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> A note to other parents: When a parent makes a decision about discipline or to you "overreacts" about something, consider for a sec that maybe you dont know the whole picture. You might not know what the parent is dealing with. The neighbors think my daughter is "so sweet, so well behaved" but have no idea of the issues we face at home (and probably wouldnt believe me if i told them.)


Yeah, this is where I'm at with it, despite the fact that I'm a non-punitive mom. You don't know the whole picture of why other parents made the decision they did, and to assume they didn't have a good enough reason to change plans, or that you're in a position to judge their reasons, bothers me. We all know our kids best and what they can handle and when it's best for plans to change. I would and have changed plans at the last minute for other reasons, and I'm in the best position to know when I really needed to change plans. Anyone's plans can change, and I don't understand expecting things to go as expected, especially when children are involved. You have to be flexible.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rubidoux*
> 
> I'm never happy to hear about punitive parents and kids being punished, it just makes me feel bad for them.
> 
> If my kid has a playdate with Johnny and Johnny refuses to eat his peas and is thus grounded and cannot have the playdate, it looks to me like Johnny and my kid are getting exactly the same punishment. What ends up happening then is that *I have to find something *really fun* (ie, either expensive and/or requiring way too much energy from me)* to do with my kid to make it up to him, *so he is not experiencing this as being punished* when I should have had a nice afternoon chatting with Johnny's mom while we sipped ice coffee and hung out at the playground.


Per the first bolded statement, you don't have to find something expensive or tiring to do, that's what you choose to do.

Per the second statement, another possibility is that your child would simply be disappointed. And my responsibility then would be to comfort my child and help them process the fact that disappointment is a normal part of life. If my child was feeling punished my job would be to point out that, in fact, no one is punishing him. I think how we as parents respond to these situations teaches our kids how to respond. If I take it personally my kid will learn to take it personally. If I express disappointment but then move on, then it's likely that my child will learn to do so as well.

That's a good way to avoid all that nasty judgement of the other mom, too.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> Just for background...i have an older son, nearly 15, who was never grounded (that i can recall), rarely if ever punished, radically unschooled, the whole bit. We talked things out etc.
> I have a daughter who is 9 (and who was not raised as my son was, in fact she only moved in with me at age 8 and has a host of emotional and learning issues)...she is often grounded. One major grounding involved her choosing not to come home from her friend's house down the street (on another block in fact) until 10 pm and it was DARK. No phone call, nothing. She just got busy playing and "forgot", well thats well and good but the same thing happened the previous weekend and the one before that as well. I gave her tools to remember (such as telling the mom in the home what time she HAD to be home so she could remind her) and giving a watch, which she lost. I was SO mad about this, doubly so because the mom that walked her home acted like it was no big deal at all. My daughter needed something to make an impression on her, and that something was being grounded from going down there for a month and from lots of other things for a few weeks (favorite tv shows, candy that sort of thing.) I told her that if i cannot trust her to do what she needed to do (come home by 8 oclock which was a longstanding rule) then she needed to not be in a situation where she would consistently fail at following rules and until i felt she had gained that trust back she needed to stick closer to home.
> As far as being grounded from some fun event due to bad behavior earlier in the week...if my child behaved badly all week...why would she get rewarded with some fun outing? I did not keep her home from a scheduled bday slumber party (even though i wanted to!) because i felt that might really disappoint the bday girl if she only had invited a few friends...had i known she had like twenty girls there i mightve made a different choice. Sometimes, with my daughter, its ONLY the "threat" of losing something she loves (such as outside play time, or some fun thing we had planned) that gets her to actually do what she is supposed to do. I dont LIKE being a punitive parent...i was a much happier mom hanging out at Dennys at midnight playing yugioh and discussing World of Warcraft when my son was younger but alas not all children are the same and therefore they may need different parenting than what one may be used to.


There were times when freedoms earned were freedoms withdrawn when abused. But that's not grounding to me. I'd be saying, "You know, you're showing me you can't handle the freedom of being able to just go over to your friend's house and be trusted to come home at the time I've told you to come home, so it's going to be a while before we try that again." But I wouldn't be grounding wholesale from "everything", just the thing where the problem lay. For systemic issues, those problems might be in a lot of areas, that might all be affected, but I've never in my life just shorthanded it to "you're grounded". As much out of self defense as anything... if I say, "You're grounded", it's me generating punishment. Phrased the other way, it puts the control-over-behavior in their court in the long term (i.e. this is something you can fix, rather than something I'm breaking.)

And ITA with other posters that yeah, if a child abuses my good nature I cease to be generous about my time, driving, etc. But that's not grounding, either, it's a logical consequence of not being nice to Mom and Mom not feeling nice in return. Honestly, that card gets played more with my adult family than it did with my older daughter. "No, you can't cook in my kitchen because it's cleaner than yours, because you keep leaving it dirty. No, not even a pizza. No, not even the toaster oven for 5 minutes." For me, that's as much about boundaries as it is about punishment.

(Younger daughter is an exception, as developmentally, we're still dealing with a 2-ish-year-old, despite her calendar age, but she isn't grounded so much as simply not allowed out of designated areas without very close supervision because she'll either damage herself or the house or someone in it.)


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> I don't blame them for a strong consequence, I blame them for not telling me ahead of time, AND for imposing a consequence that I didn't feel was at all related. And remember, this child was SIX, not twelve.
> 
> Truth be told, I have a really hard time with grounding as a discipline tool. The only time I can see using it is if a child has abused their privileges around being out. But most people I know who use grounding do it for things like not getting homework done, or sassing back. That kind of pure punishment seems pointless to me. I see nothing logical about those consequences. That's what bothered me about my son's party (the consequences didn't relate to the 'crime') and in the OP's situation, it seems to me that it was general punishment, not related to the outing at all.


It's fine to be upset about having plans canceled and having to deal with the fallout from that; basing whether or not you're upset on how you personally feel about the discipline choices of the other parent seems a little....eh. You *blame* them for imposing a consequence that you don't feel was related?

This whole thread seems to me to be about taking something personally that's not really about you at all. Admittedly this hasn't happened to my kids yet, but it seems like it would be an opportunity to teach them that yes, sometimes disappointing things happen, but it's not all about us and we move on.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> but it seems like it would be an opportunity to teach them that yes, sometimes disappointing things happen, but it's not all about us and we move on.


yes in most cases that's true. but my dd would be absolutely devastated if i grounded her and didnt let her go to her best friend's bday or vice versa.

all grounding is not the same. some have more higher consequences for the child.

children do realise there is nothing to do and move on or try to move on but sometimes its really HARD to do that.


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## VocalMinority (Apr 8, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenrose*
> 
> I don't get grounding as punishment. Never have...I believe in natural consequences. "Clean your room before you do X" is fine... it is clear, sets a boundary, and not getting to do X is a clear consequence to not following through. And "You have to have your homework done before you can do Y" is fine... it's another cause/effect thing. But grounding a kid because they break something? Or because they're being a jerk? That doesn't make sense to me.


With all due respect, I think this is largely semantic. When I was a kid, my parents didn't like to "ground" us, either. (They thought we might consider it cool and teenager-ish to be "grounded"...what the heck!?) But if a kid wants to do something and a parent says you can't until your homework's done, and the kid blows off their homework and then doesn't get to do the thing...does it matter whether you call it grounding or natural consequences? The kid isn't doing what she wants, because she failed to do what was expected of her.

I think it's *natural* to extend this to "jerk"-y behavior. If you expect your mother to drive you to meet your friends at the movie theater, give you money for tickets and popcorn, then come and pick you up when it's done; but when she asks you to take out the trash you refuse and then you mouth off to her about something, you're risking the natural consequence that she may say, "I'm not taking you." And learning to treat people decently, and that you're not entitled to have whatever you want regardless how you behave is just as valuable a lesson as learning to manage your homework assignments. (IMO)

And sure, if breaking something is a genuine accident, grounding seems an odd response. But if, prior to driving a kid to meet her friend at the movies, Mom says five times, "Stop chasing your sister through the living room with a lasso. You're going to break something!"; the kid ignores Mom and then breaks the TV...such circumstances would be similar to the "jerk"-y behavior discussed above.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jeannine*
> 
> With all due respect, I think this is largely semantic. When I was a kid, my parents didn't like to "ground" us, either. (They thought we might consider it cool and teenager-ish to be "grounded"...what the heck!?) But if a kid wants to do something and a parent says you can't until your homework's done, and the kid blows off their homework and then doesn't get to do the thing...does it matter whether you call it grounding or natural consequences? The kid isn't doing what she wants, because she failed to do what was expected of her.
> 
> ...


Enlarging text so I can see it more easily, hope it's not too huge for others.

For some kids, it wouldnt' matter. I have an extremely logical older child, and the WHY matters to her. Telling her, "You're grounded" wholesale for a specific infraction would have far less impact on her than the more common interaction, which might go like this:

"Can I go to the movie on Sunday?"

"If you get your homework done, first."

Sunday rolls around, and I check in with her, "Is your homework done?"
"Not completely."

"Maybe you'll get your homework done earlier next time so you can go."

Except that usually, having a dependent reward meant that she did, in fact, get the homework done.

Attitude discussions would go like this. Not, "You've been really snotty to me, you're grounded", but "You know, you're asking me for a favor, but the last time I asked you to help out, you whined at me and refused to do it. Should I react the same way?"

Except that usually, when she started with the whining, I'd cut it off with, "You know, you're probably going to want a ride or a favor from me soon, should I react that way the next time you ask for something?" And she'd get done the task I was asking her to do.

We had a lot of conversations when we weren't in the heat of the moment, which also helped, and a lot of discussions about situations with other people that didn't go the way she wanted, and alternative ways of handling them.

So there were times when she would say no to a request for help... but she'd do it in a way that I would know exactly what the underlying issue is. I'm not an ogre, I'm not going to be spiteful to my kid if she says, "I really don't want to help with dinner, I'm having bad period cramps because it's the first day of my period," if most of the time she *is* helpful. And we established a ground rule of "Sometimes it is a request and is phrased as such, and sometimes it is necessary and is phrased as such, and sometimes it is absolutely mandatory and you'll know it from the tone of my voice."

But my point is that for her, language mattered. How a "punishment" was presented, mattered. Punishments which seem arbitrary breed resentment and distrust. Making sure the consequence was clear in advance and consistently enforced meant she could predict and control her environment.

In fact, there were times she screwed up where there was NO immediate consequence... but there was an in depth discussion about what went wrong, what caused it, and how to prevent it from happening again... AND what the consequence would be in the future. This meant she could tell me the truth with relative impunity, and she saw the consequences not as punishments, but as aids. Literally, she came to me on one occasion and said, "Mom, I need a consequence."

Amused, I asked "Why?"

She explained that she was having trouble remembering to turn her homework in on time, it would get done and sit in her notebook. There was no real consequence in class (second grade) other than a disappointed look from the teacher.

I asked her when she would realize she'd forgotten to turn in her homework, and she said, "After school, when I open my notebook to do my new homework."

And I said, "So perhaps that's part of getting homework done, and if you open your notebook and discover your homework, you won't be able to finish your homework until you turn it in the next day."

Finishing homework + some outside play = pretty much as much screen time as she wanted aside from family/chore time. So discovering homework was "not completeable" until the next day = no computer or tv that evening.

It was a Friday. She said, "That sounds fair. I guess I can't watch TV this weekend."

I said, "No, you came to me with a problem and told me the truth and asked for a consequence. It would not be fair to enforce a consequence when you have no chance of fixing the problem until Monday, and did not know the consequence existed when you could have done something about it. So we'll start Monday, and if you forget then, THEN we'll do it." Interestingly enough, we never DID have to bring that into play during elementary school. Simply knowing where the line was was enough.

Similarly, if she forgot her lunch once in a school year, I might make a trip to the school to bring her lunch. But not a second time.

Property damage and injury don't get as much of a cushion as homework problems, but even so, the consequence needs to fit the issue, IMO.

The equivalence to grounding is only relevant if the issue is "We have an established curfew and you didn't call or get home on time, and therefore you won't be going out in the evening unless someone is willing and available to ensure you come home on time." or some other issue directly related to "Being out of the house" (for you're grounded to the house) or "Doing fun things with friends", etc.

I want to put control of behavior into my kids' hands, so that they know that what they do affects how pleasant their lives are.

K once asked me, "What if I just said no to that?"

I said, "Well, you could say no, but since it's something you really need to do, and I didn't give you the option not to do it, digging your heels and fighting with me about it is going to have me looking for ways to make your life less easy and pleasant, and I'd really rather not have our relationship go down that path. You're getting too big for me to 'make you', so yeah, I probably can't force you to do it, but I'm a pretty creative person, and I suppose I can find ways to make you really wish you had."

We never did go down that road. I try to be as reasonable as possible, but I also know that there have been situations in our lives where "instant obedience" has been critical to safety, and it is necessary for people in this family to know how to take orders when orders are necessary. There are times when negotiation and discussion are fine, but my family knows that I'm generally reasonable, and if I'm barking orders, there's probably a dang good reason behind it. When you've got a special needs little one with medical issues and a violent streak and your own mobility issues, having someone around who responds instantly to "catch her!", or "Go upstairs and get the neb equipment and suction RIGHT NOW," is really, really important. Camping, or boating, or other fun but not perfectly low risk activities are also places where the voice of command response can be essential. (I was at the receiving end of this as a young teenager, when I accidentally chopped into a beehive while gathering firewood. My scout leader's quick response and barked orders meant I ended up with 3 stings instead of 30.)

Regardless, we have never once had a situation where the words "You're grounded" would have been as effective as a more targeted and talked out consequence, and I think her relationship and mine are much better for it, and have been since she was four. On the other hand, my special needs 6 year old IS effectively grounded, but doesn't know it because she neither has the cognitive capability to comprehend the "punishment" nor the ability to follow directions meaningfully, and so we've had to structure her life and ours around keeping her safe and me sane. It's not a punishment, it's just that if she had the run of the house (let alone the neighborhood) her lifespan would be measured in hours, not years, and so would mine because she practically gives me a heart attack every time we're out of our "safe spaces" for very long. Still no point in saying the words. It takes her dozens of repetitions to understand cause and effect...her sister could get it from an explanation, not even have to experience the full cycle.

But with my niece, who is two and a half, the consequence of whining and demanding is that Aunt Jen says "No", and she's gradually getting that she's much more likely (though not guaranteed) a "Yes" if she asks politely. And it works much better with her if I explain that the "No" is because she said, "Give me that, I need it" rather than saying, "May I please have that, I want it." Without the explanation, without giving her a way to succeed, the "punishment" is pointless. We do have natural consequences... I don't like screaming, so people who scream (absent extreme physical pain) who don't need to be here don't get to stay in my space. Her screaming at my house has dropped about 95%. But as always, when she gets sent back over to her house (about 10 feet from mine), there is always the statement, "Oops, you're screaming, time to go home. Maybe next time you can use your words." Is it a grounding? Mostly it's just a "Sending home". And it's still a ball that's in her court. .


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenrose*
> I want to put control of behavior into my kids' hands, so that they know that what they do affects how pleasant their lives are.
> 
> K once asked me, "What if I just said no to that?"
> ...


I have said that basically verbatim. With emphatic pauses in the same places.







So far I have practiced on other peoples teenagers when I was a high school teachers but mine are still little. We do use 'time out' now, but that's going to phase out soon. It's not very effective. It's great in the 18 month-3 range (for our daughter) because it was about calming down, not punishment. Now it's starting to be punishment and I don't like it.

I see this thread as talking about a few different things.

a) Some people are more or less ok with flakey friends. Before I had children I was very rigid in what I expected of people. Before I had children I *had* to have people meet commitments to the letter. That type of inflexibility is very common in some areas and very uncommon in other areas. There are geographical areas with strong cultural/social attitudes. Many people with abusive backgrounds are either very flakey or highly rigid as a way of dealing with that. I think that those of us who are rigid







do well to warn the flakey people in our lives. "Hey, I recognize that this might be a point of future conflict for us so I want to talk to you about a personality quirk of mine. It's very important to me that people follow through on things they say they will do. If people change plans with me too often, I feel I can't trust them and I feel rejected. It's hard for me. I need you to work with me on this. Maybe all of our plans are tentative until you confirm by sending me an email in the morning? That way I do not get my hopes up until it is appropriate for me to get my hopes up and we can avoid me being upset with you when life happens." At least that's my approach. It works really well. This is my issue around expectations. Other people get to decide how they want to be involved with that. I tell just about everyone this schpiel when we first start making plans. Lots of people look at me funny, but if someone tells me that just isn't reasonable and they won't agree... I don't make plans with them. I have to deal with my feelings. No one else. I need to create situations that will be safe for me. If I make a request like this then I am giving my friends an easy way to understand how to succeed and how to fail with me. I want people to succeed. I have conditions around how I am treated that not all people understand. I have to communicate about them.

b) Punitive parenting or not. I am of the opinion that much of this conversation is kind of a black hole. Every family is different and I may think that people aren't doing things how I would do them, but last I checked I still am not God.

c) Treating kids as autonomous human beings with obligations of their own in the world. My kids are still little so a lot of this is theoretical. Which means I'm just talking out my @$$ and everyone with teenagers can roll their eyes and stop reading.







I realized recently that part of what was making me feel like I was drowning as a stay at home mom alone with my kids for 50 hours was I had no hope of ever having any time away from the kids. We plan to home school. It seemed like an infinity of being tied to activities I can drag these little people off to and most of my hobbies are not appropriate for children. I was really depressed and freaking out. At the same time my best friend has experienced a decline in health such that she should not be living alone. She moved in a little over two months ago and I'm amazed at how much better my life is. My 3 year old asked if she could go to preschool part time to meet kids. I thought that sounded awesome. I am now away from her for about 20 hours a week between preschool and other times when I get to have personal time. It's glorious. I love my kids so much more now that they have time and space away from me.

I am trying to treat my three year old like her schedule is separate from mine. It has helped me feel less enmeshed and codependent. I am not responsible for fixing every feeling in her life and catering to her moods. She has places to go and things to do. She has people to see. If her behavior is problematic I try to talk to her about upcoming thing and talk to her about how her behavior can effect her ability to participate. Usually my explanation is something like, "You are acting really tired. You are cranky and fussy and you keep hitting. It seems like maybe you should rest so that you have the ability to handle yourself in the world. That might mean that you miss out on thing. But if you aren't too tired, you might want to take some deep breaths and we'll change what you are doing so you can have a reset on your frustration." It's important for me to note in just about all of my posts that I have mental health issues. I have a lot of times when I can't go out. It's very important that my daughter's ability to go out not be tied to my whims. That is a road to pain. That is how dysfunctional behavior patterns are passed down through the generations. That's why children of Adult Children of Alcoholics still act like they grew up with an alcoholic even if their parent was dry. I think my daughter gets to go interact with the world and decide how her behavior will change her interactions. I try hard to keep my whims out of it.

That said, heck yes I'm going to punish her, depending on what she does.

Ask me how this worked when she's 18.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

Yeah, I've always felt time out worked much better if I was the one taking it, not my kid.  Punitive time out did jack all with #1, who turned it into a power struggler, or with #2, who doesn't "get" it and won't stay put no matter what because the concept is so far over her head it's not even funny.

Flaky friends... I've quit scheduling a lot of things with people because it just got to be too much, and NO ONE was EVER following through. Made me crazy. And sometimes I couldn't follow through, and...yeah, no. My sister lives on the property, she's my equivalent of the wacky sitcom neighbor (her words, not mine) who comes over at random times, as do my parents, and between that and the internet, I'm fine for human companionship, and making contact with people IRL who arent' family just seems like so dang much WORK. I make plans. I try not to make them dependent on anyone whose schedule I'm not responsible for. Not an ideal solution, but I'm just *done* with adjusting my schedule for people who don't take it seriously when I can't always follow through myself.

And yeah, people parent how they parent. I just know it got a whole lot easier when I stopped trying to punish and started trying to make my interactions with my daughter make sense from her perspective.

With an 18 year old who is staying home for a year... the whole "Kid as autonomous being with her own schedule" is huge for us. There are a few expectations I have of her right now, as part of the whole "I don't push her to get a job or pay rent while she's not in school" thing. That she get her sister to the bus in the morning (because I can't lift said sister due to doctor's orders and pregnancy and walking to the corner makes me yack) and pick her up in the afternoon. That she be reasonably helpful around the house. Other than that, she's really got most of every day where I expect nothing and do nothing to schedule her time. She has friends over, she is working on setting up some volunteer stuff to keep busy, she has a bike and I'll pay for a bus pass if she needs it or loan my car as long as we're on good enough terms that I feel generous.

She's been bending over backwards to be helpful (figuring out that we've set aside enough money for her to go to college and not have debt even if she doesn't work during school may have something to do with this, but she was helpful before she figured that out, just not with quite the blazingly brilliant attitude) and goes above and beyond most of the time. So I feel incredibly generous towards her, and when things come up where she needs to be out of the house when I would normally need her help, the family steps in with a will to help out because she's been so amazing. She doesn't just get the loan of my car, but the loan of my dad's car, pretty much whenever she asks if we're not using it, because she goes out of her way to be helpful, knowing that it means that when she needs help, we've got her back.

I think for me the thing about avoiding "shortcuts" like grounding or time out is that I've always just had better results from being mindful. From looking at the situation, as much as I can, from my kid's perspective, and making them a part of the discussion of, "This behavior/action/attitude is creating X, Y and Z problems for you and/or for me, and this is the end result. What can we do to make that not happen that way anymore?"

Once they're part of figuring it out and understanding why the boundaries are what the boundaries are, yeah, there are consequences, but they don't feel like punishment. I asked DD1 once if she could remember the last time I'd punished her, and she couldn't. It wasn't that we hadn't had issues, we just had resolved them in other ways, and it didn't FEEL like punishment, like something I was inflicting on her. And feelings are important. How she feels about me and how I feel about her strongly impacts how we interact.


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## jenrose (Apr 25, 2004)

Oh, and to a certain degree, there's only so much you can do with the 3-4 year old set. DD1 was a little monster during that time, and it was mostly about her not knowing how to handle her strong feelings or my strong feelings. It took me 2 full years to figure out how to talk that through with her, and a whole lot of me locking myself in the bathroom so that I didn't beat her senseless because she was just making me that crazed.

Since then, we've moved to a house with two completely child-proof, fully gated lockable rooms, so separation-for-sanity-sake is much easier to accomplish. I just don't react well to being kicked, pinched, or hit, and one of the lessons I teach my kids is that if someone hurts them, they get to walk away. And if they hurt me, I get to walk away and be where they can't physically strike me.

Once she was able to comprehend basic safety, I was able to phrase "strong emotional feelings" or "Mommy's angry" in a way that it fit into any other emergency structure... if you're on fire, you stop drop and roll. If you need help and no one is there to help you, call 911. If Mommy is angry enough that she's locking herself in the bathroom, go to your room and read a book until Mommy calms down, and Mommy will calm down a lot faster than if you pound on the door and scream. Once she knew what to do, the behavior vanished.

But that only worked once she was developmentally ready for it. My six year old, all I can do is stick her in the other room and go be safe where I can see her without getting hit and pummeled.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenrose*
> 
> Oh, and to a certain degree, there's only so much you can do with the 3-4 year old set. DD1 was a little monster during that time, and it was mostly about her not knowing how to handle her strong feelings or my strong feelings. It took me 2 full years to figure out how to talk that through with her, and a whole lot of me locking myself in the bathroom so that I didn't beat her senseless because she was just making me that crazed.
> 
> ...


This was honestly eery. I'm having to do this with my formally very mellow three year old. Oh man. It does go better when the time out is for me. A lot better. I'm really sick of being hit.







The main thing I say is, "Hey I don't hit you so please don't hit me." This holds me to the bar of not hitting. That's hard some days. It's a philosophical position based on the ineffectiveness of hitting as a behavioral modification tool. Some times I idly wonder if spanking her would make me feel better. So far my conclusion is I would feel a lot worse so it remains not an option.

I'm waiting till she has reason and praying. And trying not to scream. And doing a lot of isolating myself. Oh man.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenrose*
> 
> Flaky friends...


I guess if someone cancelled a significant percentage of the time because their kid was grounded, I could see labeling them flaky. To me, flaky friends are the ones who regularly call you 20 minutes after you're at the destination to breezily say, "Oh hi! We just woke up, so we'll be there in like an hour" with no apology. Friends who are typically punctual and dependable, but who very occasionally (like, 1 or 2 times a year maybe, if that?) call and say, "I'm so sorry, but we've had a really rough morning with DS's behavior and I've told him he can't go to the movies today" don't qualify as flaky to me.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I guess if someone cancelled a significant percentage of the time because their kid was grounded, I could see labeling them flaky. To me, flaky friends are the ones who regularly call you 20 minutes after you're at the destination to breezily say, "Oh hi! We just woke up, so we'll be there in like an hour" with no apology. Friends who are typically punctual and dependable, but who very occasionally (like, 1 or 2 times a year maybe, if that?) call and say, "I'm so sorry, but we've had a really rough morning with DS's behavior and I've told him he can't go to the movies today" don't qualify as flaky to me.


Thanks. I was coming in to say something very similar.

My son is very social creature. No amount of talking, distractions, time-outs or taking away a favorite toy ever helped him when things got tough. But break a playdate? Whoa, mama. I only had to do this a handful of times but it really hit home with him.

My daughter could shape up with a stern look.


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