# How much supervision is enough?



## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

So I tried this for the first time today and strangely don't feel guilty, but wanted to get other people's reactions to it (don't flame me!)

We have a back yard that is completely fenced with a 6-foot wooden privacy fence. Nobody can even see in. We also have a very protective and gentle-with-kids 60-pound lab with a loud bark.

I just let my 18-month-old DS play in the yard with the dog for 30 minutes while I was inside. I could hear his little voice through the open back door the whole time, talking to the dog. And I looked out the window every 5 minutes or so to check on him, or if he got too quiet. Every time he was contentedly playing with a rock or a stick, walking around exploring, or throwing the ball for the dog.

If I heard him cry I could've gotten to him in about 30 seconds if I needed to.

I'm worried about him falling on something sharp, getting bitten by a bug, picking up parasites from the dirt, that kind of thing. But it was so awesome to see him entertaining himself while I was able to do a few chores, and teaching himself about nature no less! I really like the idea of raising him to be independent in this way.

But do you think I should have been out there with him, with my eyes on him every second? Do you think it's okay to let a child that young be outdoors alone ever, even with the relatively safe environment of our yard? WWYD?


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## lisalu100 (Aug 18, 2008)

I've been doing the same thing with DD since about 14 months. Our yard is small, we don't have a dog, and I stay in the kitchen, where I can hear her through the screen door, and check on her every couple of minutes through the kitchen window. Ah, the peace...


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Ugh, I am so jealous! I live in a fourth floor walk up with a tint, but not fenced in yard. Sigh....so jealous......


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

I would do that.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Leaving him out there in your fenced yard doesn't seem much different than leaving him in another room of your house... so I don't see it as an issue, though I wouldn't do it with DS (just different personality, plus he wouldn't tolerate being out there alone anyway).

I would be cautious about leaving him unattended with the dog though (because I've seen 'good' dogs suddenly turn aggressive)... Not something I'd be comfortable with...


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## Mal85 (Sep 3, 2008)

I so wish I could do this. If our yard had a fence, I'd let my two year old play out there with close supervision through the window and I'd leave the door open so I could hear her. DH doesn't see the need for a fence, he doesn't like the way they look. I really, really beg to differ!


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## prone_to_wander (Jun 29, 2009)

I'd re-think leaving your little one alone with the dog.


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## Abraisme (Mar 8, 2009)

I let my 20mo play outside alone all the time. We also have a large, safe, enclosed backyard and she enjoys it. However, I do have a lot of windows in my house and can see her easily from every room. I think this totally depends on your kid and what they're prone to do. My DD is very mellow, has great coordination and doesn't tend to do dangerous things. However, my friends 3 year old needs to be supervised all the time. He will climb fences, let animals go from their cages, move rocks into precarious places, etc.. If you feel like your baby is safe, then I think it's okay.

ETA: I trust my dogs to be outside with my baby. If I didn't trust my dogs that much, I wouldn't have them. We also have dwarf goats (in a fence), rabbits and chickens. I've never had an issue with any of the animals.


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## mamabelle (Mar 16, 2011)

I let my 20-month-old play outside with the door open and check on him frequently. We have 2 big dogs that are absolutely wonderful with him and since the door's open everyone has the option of being indoors or outdoors (sometimes he chases the dogs more than they want). Our yard is fenced and he's a pretty mellow kid. He likes to be close so he often stays right near the door. I worry about some of the things you mention (sharp things, etc), but just try to keep our yard as safe as possible and keep an eye on him.

My sister won't let her kids play in their fenced yard without her, every mama just has to do what feels comfortable and safe for her. A friend makes fun of me because I still cut grapes in half for my toddler... I'm just trying to say we all have our own boundaries and comfort levels : )


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## TSomm (Jun 15, 2009)

Funny, I just did this same thing the other day and wondered if I was being "neglectful" or "empowering" by letting my 14m DD play outside. She absolutely LOVES being outside and explores rocks, dirt, sticks, and stones. She loves the "plunk" of the stones she collects in her cup. I love being able to load the dishwasher without her climbing into it. Our yard is also on the small side and fenced in. The biggest hazard would be the landmines left behind by the dog, who is best friends with her. I'm pretty sure this is something I'm going to continue doing.


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## tabrizia (Oct 24, 2007)

When we finish the backyard I plan to let the 4 year old and 2 year old out alone back there. That being said, I won't trust them alone with the dog, otherwise in a perfectly safe fenced backyard with no hazards, I won't have a problem with my toddler out there playing alone.


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## penstamon (Nov 6, 2008)

We have a similar situation and yes, I let 20mo DS play outside by himself while I am inside. I have only done this for 1/2 hour or less and we can hear each other so I call to him now and again and vice versa. Of course there are dangers outside but he can get hurt inside too, even when I am right next to him so IMO as long as I can see him outside I am fine with him out there by himself.


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## MamatobabyA (Jan 3, 2011)

I would not be doing this with my 15 month old, but only because he is still putting everything in his mouth. Rocks, sticks, whathaveyou. If I wasn't worried about choking, I would have no issues. I think it's great! It's fun to watch them gain a bit of independence, isn't it?


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## brennan (Feb 1, 2009)

I see absolutely no problem at all. Our back yard isn't safe at all and doesn't have a fence otherwise I totally would do it too! I leave dd alone in rooms of the house, but I know her and her personality. I know that she isn't going to try anything. She can be around open stairs, hot food and nothing in our house is child proofed, yet she won't touch anything she's not supposed to, its just her personality. I absolutely would let her be outside by herself because I can trust her to know when she needs to come and get me. My friend's dd on the other hand seemingly does not think before she acts (though I'm sure she does, she's just daring), so there's lots of throwing herself off of things, grabbing dangerous things, eating things off the ground etc, she has a different personality, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with her being outside by herself. Its all about personality.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

I wouldn't, at that age, because of the choking hazard risk primarily. Choking is silent and common. And my 20m isn't allowed to play by herself in another room of the house either. But an older child who was visible through a window? Sure.

I also wouldn't allow the dog to play with her. We had friend with a "good dog" and a very injured child. Too much risk, especially in that weight class.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

for everyone saying they wouldn't trust any dog alone with their kiddo, could you possibly consider that OP knows her dogs better than you do? I am so tired of the hysteria over leaving a dog alone with a toddler. Everyone trots out the "well I know a good dog who just snapped one day" stories without realizing that there are generally SIGNS as a precursor to this type of behavior, it is that the humans missed it.

I trust my dog completely. She allows DD to feed her food from her dish 1 piece at a time, DD grabs bones from this dogs mouth, she kisses the dog on the mouth, they roll around on the floor playing together. I don't need a stranger online telling me I am endangering my kid when you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The OP didn't ask for advice about leaving her kiddo with a dog, she asked the opinions of leaving her kiddo outside for a little while. People need to stop with the dog panic thing, yeah dogs bite kids, it happens but guess what, for every dog that "snaps" (or in other words sends signals that are ignored or not noticed) there are the countless dogs who never do anything but lick and love the little member's of their family...OK off soapbox now.

OP, it sounds like it went great. I am jealous of you! DD won't stand playing unsupervised for more than 5 minutes then she is running around shouting for mama!

ETA, just to add my dog is an 80lb shepherd mix...Go ahead tell me I am "endangering" my child now









As a PP said if you can't trust your own dog with your kid then you shouldn't have that dog in the first place.


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## bignerpie (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> As a PP said if you can't trust your own dog with your kid then you shouldn't have that dog in the first place.












We have two German Shepherds, one is about 80 pounds, the other about 130 pounds (yes, he is an extremely large dog all around!). My son climbs all over both of them, chases them around, feeds them by hand, and the dogs love it. They are extremely protective of him, and the only person they would hurt is someone trying to hurt us. I know my dogs.

I don't have such a great backyard as the OP describes. I wish I had a big privacy fence like that! I would let my son do the same thing. Right now, I will let him run around while I'm outside, but usually I'll just sit and read a book and glance up every now and then. If he tries to go towards the road or in the neighbors' yard, I'll grab him and turn him around.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I don't think it's hysteria to be careful about leaving a dog alone with a toddler. Many toddlers will suddenly try to pull the dog's tail, hit it, play too roughly with it, etc. even if they are generally gentle kids, and an animal may react very differently from its 'normal' temperament when it's in pain or scared. And yes, there may be signs that the owner may miss, which is exactly the point -- sometimes we miss the signs, and general caution with kids around animals may help prevent injuries in such cases... It drives me CRAZY when people say, "MY dog would never bite," because many many many times I've seen those exact same dogs show signs of aggression (especially with small kids) -- this is not just some story I heard on the news one time, it's something I've personally witnessed multiple times. Plus, dog owners can be blinded by their love for their family pet (just like moms might say their kid would never do XYZ, sometimes our love gets in the way of objectively evaluating the situation).

I know the OP didn't ask about this, but she did ask about the overall safety of the situation, and pointing out the dog issue is no different than pointing out that fences aren't fool-proof or any other aspect of the situation that could be dangerous. But that being said, lots of parents do things I would consider dangerous (and lots refrain from doing things that I feel are safe) so I am not trying to judge/accuse anyone of anything, just pointing out what *I* would find unsafe about the situation.


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

What hysteria? A couple of posters have said that they wouldn't have left the child with a dog. I don't see that as hysteria, purely "you ask for my opinion, and here it is." And as for the "she knows her dog better than you do" comment, so what? You could apply that to every posting that is made here. How interesting or helpful would MDC be if responses to questions were full of "well, I know my child better than you do." Yes, you do. So why are you (generic you) asking advice from people who have never met your child?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> for everyone saying they wouldn't trust any dog alone with their kiddo, could you possibly consider that OP knows her dogs better than you do? I am so tired of the hysteria over leaving a dog alone with a toddler. Everyone trots out the "well I know a good dog who just snapped one day" stories without realizing that there are generally SIGNS as a precursor to this type of behavior, it is that the humans missed it.
> 
> ...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

the hysteria is here (MDC in general) all the time about people's dogs. I won't hijack this thread with a whole separate discussion about dog safety but I can guarantee no one will have their mind changed by what I say. Some people just can't trust their dog's enough. Not a bad thing to know the realistic limitations of your own dog. My point is that NO ONE knows the OP's dog as well as she does and I assume that she wouldn't leave the dog alone with the kid unless she was confident in the safety of it.

I am confident in my own dog. I do not buy into the "even good dog's snap at any random moment so be careful" attitude. I just don't. It is a rarity but it is made to appear as a commonplace event. Maybe you think your dog might and you might want to analyze why you have those particular concerns but I don't...I'll check back in about it in 15 years after my dog does and hasn't even nipped anything except a flea on her butt.

People need to stop assuming every dog is a ticking time bomb of teeth, it's just not true, it's fear mongering. Your own dog might be but that is your (meaning anyone who feels this way) own issue with your own dog.

OP, I'm curious, does your toddler ever get nervous outside alone? Does your voice calling out do enough to calm any anxiety? DD is driving me crazy outside because I can't get any yard work done with her out with me. She just wants to be held the whole time.

Oh to the why ask advice when the OP knows her own child better....This thread is about her child, not her dog so why are people acting like they know her dog better than she does? She is asking advice about the general safety of allowing a toddler to play outdoors. Not the specific safety of allowing her toddler to play with her own dog that she knows better than any poster here.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

(sidetracked for the people afraid of leaving kids alone with dogs: don't you think that the kid has most likely run the gamut of doggie abuse while watchful mama was around enough to trust dog's reaction? )

i think that's totally wonderful. your yard is just another childproofed area! sadly we don't have that, i have to watch dd like a hawk outside, but if we had a fence (and if she would leave my side for like two seconds ever) i would totally do that. but i'm a free-range type mama  i grew up playing outside by myself in the woods and on big acreage. i know i'll just eventually try to not think about all the dangerous things i did.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

We are about to move & one of the big things I'm excited about is that ds will be able to go outside unattended for short periods of time. Our yard here, although fully fenced, is not visible (or within hearing) from the house & so I couldn't feel comfortable leaving him out there alone.

As for the dog - everyone needs to assess their own situation. We have 2, one I would absolutely trust with ds unsupervised, they get along great, she's little & the worst she would do is jump on him. Our older dog is less patient than she used to be & to protect her from my not so gentle little boy as much as anything I wouldn't leave her unattended with him. I don't actually think she would snap at him but she is a big girl & her trying to get away from his enthusiasm could knock him & hurt him. When she was younger I wouldn't have hesitated 'cause she was ridiculously patient with kids (I think she is often uncomfortable now so is a little more irritable).


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

what are the yards looking like that people are letting their toddlers loose in??

Our yard is large, unfenced but very private by the neighborhood's standards and not really even at all. It has one flat area where the chicken coop is and the rest slopes downward into a hollow where the fire pit is...I would love to let DD loose in the yard but I can't envision her playing out there by herself. The yard is so uneven and variable, she does stumble and take quite a few spills, I feel like she would just end up rolling down the hill...

We do have a huge deck that wraps around the back half of the house and I could see her playing out there without me...I just can't picture her willing to be outside a lone...These mythical toddlers who like to roam without mama or dada blow my mind









oh the dog thing, I guess my original rant was basically along the lines of people are the best judge of their own dog's and I take someone's word when they say they CAN trust their dog. I know I can trust mine. I have seen firsthand what DD dishes out to the dog (even with repeated "gentle" lessons) and our pup has never so much as batted an eye when DD has smacked/pulled/fell on/yanked on the collar/tripped over/taken toys/taken food/stuck her entire hand in the dog's mouth etc... I would actually feel better about DD playing outside alone with the dog out there with her...

Now as our dog gets older I will pay closer attention because I certainly know older dog's are less patient and tend to be more sensitive physically due to arthritis or whatever...Kinda like older humans


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *radicaleel* 


> I'm worried about him falling on something sharp, getting bitten by a bug, picking up parasites from the dirt, that kind of thing.


All of these could happen if you were sitting outside supervising









If I had that set-up (fenced in yard) I wouldn't hesitate to allow a child to play out there while I listened/checked on them. I would hesitate about letting the dog out there with him alone, but I've heard some horrifying stories of dogs and kids (even in supervised settings).


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## nola79 (Jun 21, 2009)

I totally do this! My dd is 14, almost 15 months. Our backyard is large and has a wooden 6 foot privacy fence all the way around. We have a little toddler "house" for her out there and she goes and plays just fine on her own. The best part is our living room has french doors and large windows on either side of the doors that look right into the backyard, so I can see her at all times and run out and get her if she goes too far on either side of the yard.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

parasites from the dirt is a new one for me? I think one of the last things I'd worry about since my kid will have a lifetime of interacting with dirt...Yesterday she was rolling chicken POOP in her fingers that she picked up in the run


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## Wittyone (May 11, 2005)

When DS was 16 months we moved into a little house with a HUGE, fenced back yard. There were 2 sliding doors plus lots of windows overlooking the yard and he played out there all.the.time on his own. He is nature boy and would come back in absolutely covered in dirt or mud, but always had a blast. We could see/hear him from the house or sit out on the deck with him, he'd literally be content for hours of the day (not consecutive). When he was 3 we moved into a house with a large, safe backyard but he would never go out by himself b/c the access from the house was poor and you couldn't see/hear what was happening back there. We were ok with him going in and out but he didn't like it b/c he couldn't touch base easily with us. When we bought a house a year later it was really important to have good backyard access from the house both physically and visually. Once again, he is delighted to play outside on his own  This time we also have a shower right off the garage entrance to the house - a blessing when he is covered head to toe in mud/dirt/water. I'm so glad we were able to start independant outdoor time as young as we did, and his love of that has just continued.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Some of my best childhood memories are playing in the yard, exploring and finding different kinds of bugs, plants, and just enjoying being outside. We now live in a big city with no yard (apartment) and I do feel my kids are missing out. I just spent a few hours with the kids running around the yard of a local kid friendly cafe. I read a book, the kids played with bugs and stuff. I think that kind of thing is very important, and I see nothing wrong with leaving young kids to play in the yard while you can see or hear them all the time. They need that freedom, I think!


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Do a search here on MDC about dogs and biting and you will discover that MDC parents are not immune to having their child bitten by a dog. As sad as it is, it happens. A parent who refuses to admit the possibility is there that their dog could bite their child is in denial and doing a disservice to both the dog and the child.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *StephandOwen*
> 
> Do a search here on MDC about dogs and biting and you will discover that MDC parents are not immune to having their child bitten by a dog. As sad as it is, it happens. A parent who refuses to admit the possibility is there that their dog could bite their child is in denial and doing a disservice to both the dog and the child.


thus my point about the hysteria of dog biting...every time someone mentions their dog alone with their kid, people DO trot out story after story of a "good" dog suddenly snapping and mauling a kid...

Well guess what I am not afraid of my dog and I am not doing a damn disservice to either my kid or my dog because I KNOW my dog isn't going to bite my kid...Thank you for assuming you know me, my dog and my kid better based on your own fears and issues...As we speak my daughter is dragging our dog around the living room by her collar (my 80lb dog)...Stop with the fear mongering. You don't know other people's dogs and no one is in denial about anything. People who have this level of insecurity about dogs SHOULDN'T even own a dog.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> thus my point about the hysteria of dog biting...every time someone mentions their dog alone with their kid, people DO trot out story after story of a "good" dog suddenly snapping and mauling a kid...
> 
> Well guess what I am not afraid of my dog and I am not doing a damn disservice to either my kid or my dog because I KNOW my dog isn't going to bite my kid...Thank you for assuming you know me, my dog and my kid better based on your own fears and issues...As we speak my daughter is dragging our dog around the living room by her collar (my 80lb dog)...Stop with the fear mongering. You don't know other people's dogs and no one is in denial about anything. People who have this level of insecurity about dogs SHOULDN'T even own a dog.


I never said your dog was going to bite your kid. I said the POSSIBILITY is there. Just because you don't want to admit it doesn't mean it isn't true. Any animal can bite. Fact of life.

You are more than welcome to live in denial. I am still entitled to my opinion that by not admitting that there's a POSSIBILITY (not necessarily a probability) that your dog could bite your kid then you are doing a disservice to your dog and child. That's my opinion, and I presented it as such. Nobody said you have to agree










The same goes for you- you are welcome to believe I shouldn't own a dog. And, I'll make it known, I don't own a dog and never will (though I did grow up with them as a kid. And yes, our "gentle, would never hurt a flea" dog did snap at us as she got older, even though she grew up with us and never gave any indication for all those years that she would ever snap/bite us).


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *StephandOwen*
> 
> I never said your dog was going to bite your kid. I said the POSSIBILITY is there. Just because you don't want to admit it doesn't mean it isn't true. Any animal can bite. Fact of life.
> 
> ...


yes there is a possibility my dog would bite my daughter. There is a possibility my dog would bite me or DH or the neighbor or another dog will bite DD or DD will get attacked by a bald eagle while she is playing outside. The point is you don't know my dog and to say I am living in denial because I DO know my dog and I KNOW the possibility and the probability is zero (I mentioned old dogs are more prone to bite BTW, but DD will be old enough to leave the dog alone by then) is just stupid. I am doing no disservice to anyone but myself at this point for listening to someone who doesn't even own a dog with kids...The fact that your old dog snapped at your is an indication of it being old, and is not shocking, but yes i mentioned that before.

I'll say it again, my dog isn't going to bite my toddler. I am not in denial, I am not stupid, I am not doing them a disservice I just happen to know better than you, the woman who has acknowledged she doesn't (and will never) even own a dog while having children, so what is your stake in the argument exactly? Drawing on your experience as a child certainly doesn't give you experience as an adult owning a dog while having children..Rhetorical question, just think about it before you go telling other people what is right or wrong about experiences you will never even have.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I'll say it again, my dog isn't going to bite my toddler.


I will simply end this with- you don't know this. Nobody can say, with 100% certainty, what will or won't happen. Period. You may THINK your dog will never bite your child. But you can't say that your dog will never bite your child. You simply don't know that. I hope, for your child's sake, you never find out the hard way that sometimes "good" dogs do bite.

And, for the record, we were actually older kids (preteens probably?) when the dog started snapping at us so it isn't necessarily an argument of "when dc gets older the dog won't bite them".


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *StephandOwen*
> 
> I will simply end this with- you don't know this. Nobody can say, with 100% certainty, what will or won't happen. Period. You may THINK your dog will never bite your child. But you can't say that your dog will never bite your child. You simply don't know that. I hope, for your child's sake, you never find out the hard way that sometimes "good" dogs do bite.
> 
> And, for the record, we were actually older kids (preteens probably?) when the dog started snapping at us so it isn't necessarily an argument of "when dc gets older the dog won't bite them".


Like I said in the beginning I won't change anyone's mind. I think it is pretty rich though to receive a lecture from someone who has never owned a dog and had a toddler at the same time. My mind is ever on the safety of my child, in fact I have an entire thread devoted to dealing with my mom's dog and my DD when I visit my mother, you can read it here http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1308761/my-mom-s-dog-nips-at-dd and maybe you will realize exactly how AWARE I am of the dangers of dogs and toddlers and the possibility of bites happening. Thanks for hoping for my child's "sake" I love the presumption that I am a subpar protector of my kid, like I am willfully ignoring DD playing with matches or something and it is only by the grace of god she isn't dead yet.







I urge you to read the thread I posted so you can appreciate how seriously I take dogs and children and also appreciate the fact that people who ACTUALLY own a dog with a toddler are generally (at least on these boards) very conscious of safety at all times regarding the two.

My point about my daughter being older and the dog being old and snapping at her was that when DD is older she will be able to listen and control her impulses enough so that if I say leave the dog alone, she will. I suppose you could argue a good could snap and straight up attack an older child but thats like saying any normal domesticated animal could go crazy and attack anyone of any age being a kid isn't the issue in that case.

Ok I'm done now, I just hope you appreciate that people who deal with situation EVERY SINGLE DAY are very aware of safety and if they have decided it is ok to leave toddler and dog alone they are confident in the safety of the situation.

ETA to add: OP I am really sorry for hijacking the thread!! I won't say a word more on the discussion, that can always be done through PM if wanted.


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## goldenwillow (Jan 5, 2010)

I am glad to see this thread.

DS roams the house on his own often and I love watching what he does. It is so nice to have some time to do this and that while he is playing.

DS is 22 months and hangs in our yard with our 13 year old pup.

Since the weather is not so crappy and getting our garden in order he is free to roam, within eyesight as we do not have a fence but a large yard. He does wonder to the end of the yard on his own.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> Like I said in the beginning I won't change anyone's mind. I think it is pretty rich though to receive a lecture from someone who has never owned a dog and had a toddler at the same time. My mind is ever on the safety of my child, in fact I have an entire thread devoted to dealing with my mom's dog and my DD when I visit my mother, you can read it here http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1308761/my-mom-s-dog-nips-at-dd and maybe you will realize exactly how AWARE I am of the dangers of dogs and toddlers and the possibility of bites happening. Thanks for hoping for my child's "sake" I love the presumption that I am a subpar protector of my kid, like I am willfully ignoring DD playing with matches or something and it is only by the grace of god she isn't dead yet.
> 
> ...


But you seem to be missing that when I wrote my first post in this thread it was not about you. You chose to make it about you, but it wasn't. I made a post about people and dogs in general. That was it. I didn't single anyone out and comment on anyone's specific parenting. I have never said anything about your parenting at all. I know nothing about you so I presume to know nothing about how you parent. I do know a thing or two about dogs (despite your attitude that since I don't own a dog I simply couldn't have a clue what I'm talking about) and I'm well aware of the fact that dogs can bite. That's it. Dogs can bite. Deny it if you want, but that doesn't make it untrue.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> (sidetracked for the people afraid of leaving kids alone with dogs: don't you think that the kid has most likely run the gamut of doggie abuse while watchful mama was around enough to trust dog's reaction? )


I don't trust that at 18 months that there's been enough time to observe the interactions between a dog who thinks the toddler is another adult dog that should be expected to have manners. Lots of time to see a dog who has been giving the puppy some slack while the mama-bitch is around to put the hurt down on any dog that messes with her milk-scented pup. Hope to goodness the switch from "puppy to be tolerated" to "nuisance to knock down with an open mouth" doesn't happen during one of the times the dog and toddler are playing together alone.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

i'm not going to say who's right and who's wrong on the dog issue. i think it's possible to know both your dog and your toddler very well and how they interact with each other. but there are situations where dogs are entirely unpredictable. the one i can think of off-hand is when they are sleeping and/or surprised and caught off guard.

i wouldn't leave my toddler 100% unsupervised for an extended period with the dog despite the fact that she has always maintained a very healthy distance from him and him from her. and i used to manage a doggy daycare and have had extensive training and experience in animal behavior...so i don;t consider myself uninformed.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *StephandOwen*
> 
> But you seem to be missing that when I wrote my first post in this thread it was not about you. You chose to make it about you, but it wasn't. I made a post about people and dogs in general. That was it. I didn't single anyone out and comment on anyone's specific parenting. I have never said anything about your parenting at all. I know nothing about you so I presume to know nothing about how you parent. I do know a thing or two about dogs (despite your attitude that since I don't own a dog I simply couldn't have a clue what I'm talking about) and I'm well aware of the fact that dogs can bite. That's it. Dogs can bite. Deny it if you want, but that doesn't make it untrue.


I don't deny dogs bite (people of all sizes btw)...at no point have I denied it. Sigh, choose to ignore that if you want.

My original complaint was that every time a mama posts about her kid and dog being alone to together people always trot out their friendly dog randomly bites kid stories and cautions against EVER leaving them alone together, which is an overreaction. The OP never asked anything at all about the dog and kid she was just asking about letting her kiddo be outside unsupervised. Period.

My attitude is someone who hasn't had a dog and a toddler SIMULTANEOUSLY, is not really the source of toddler/dog interactions. As opposed to people who BTDB and if they never want to leave their own toddler and dog alone that is their business but that doesn't mean it isn't FINE with other people.

I guess I do take it personally when I point out that I too allow my dog and toddler to be alone and then someone proceeds to tell me I am in denial to the horrifying danger of the situation

If you want to carry on this conversation why don't we do it PM style so as not to interfere with the OP's original point of the thread? Otherwise I'm just going to leave it at what I have posted.


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## elevena true (Jan 12, 2011)

i am a mama to dd 7, dd 4, soon a third surprise baby, and our dear older dog---9 and a half. we have lived rurally, on 9 acres, where the kids were allowed and encouraged to go outside as much as possible. i knew the places where they would play, the little one would stick with the older one, or be within be sight and hearing range. we had no fences. my neighbor had kiddos nearly the same ages--- she couldn't leave her 2 year old out for 15 seconds without supervision, or else he would book it for the highway. to the OP, i honor your intuition and knowledge of your own kiddo. kids really NEED to be outside without constant interference and interaction from adults. this is how they make sense of their natural environment.

i can't ignore the issue of dog safety on this thread. i suppose it is an element of the original question- though i read it as, this is something that makes the situation safer. i personally send my dog off with my children, as a "keeping them safer" measure. there have been coyotes in broad daylight seen on this same property. never when a dog was out. this is also out in the country- where dogs tend to roam, there are no fences. if a random dog were to happen onto our property, not unusual mind you, i would not want my children to be unattended. i am within ear shot and they are mostly visible to me, but i am also not peering out of the window constantly. i am trying to get things done.  i do feel safer with my dog out in the yard with the kiddos. as i expect most mothers are capable of reading the limitations their kiddos need, i believe they can also read what their dog can handle. our dog is a loved member of our family. she is docile, sweet, and gentle. her method of manuevering little children from climbing on her is to lick them until they are bothered enough to let her be. she has been around all ages of kids for her whole life, and intimately in the last 7 years. i still keep an eye out for her, the same way i would keep an eye out for one of my kids, if i see them reaching a point of irritation (with each other), so that i can redirect before anyone crosses any lines. though doris (our dog) is apt to get up and move if she needs to, though i fully trust her, i still do that looking out for her. does this make sense? i'm not protecting the children from her....i'm protecting her from the children. personalities progress, and though she is wildly tolerant at this point in her life, i love and respect her enough that i don't think it is fair to always expect her to be the one "voicing" (read: kissing) her boundaries. dogs do age. and they tend to get a little less patient as they do so. just like people.

all that said, we also had an older dog (who has passed on at this point) who was no where near as tolerant as doris. she was sweet and loved, and if the kids were too close to her (she didn't want to be climbed on or moved while she was laying down) or bugging her she would give a mild growl-grunt. this was my moment to tell the little one bugging her, "listen up. miel is telling you to leave her alone." i would also usher the dog out of the space where the kid was, or the kid out of the space where the dog was. this gave them both awareness and empowered them to change the situation on their own. this is part of learning how to co-exist. i think most of the dog owners on here have a sense of what level of trust they can offer to their dog and toddler. it is actually compellingly rare that a family dog just "snaps" one day. what happens, as one poster suggested, is that warnings go unnoticed.

i think i wrote a novel.  sorry, i didn't mean to. on a whole different end of the spectrum, when my grandma was a child her mother would put all 4 of her kiddos in a hole she had dug 6 feet deep, with the family dog at the top to guard the kiddos while she worked in the field all day.


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## AKislandgirl (Jun 2, 2008)

My 2 year old plays in the yard on her own but not for long stretches. More like I'm out with her and then run in the house to grab something, switch the laundry, etc... Our yard is fenced and she happily roams around. We have 2 dogs that are usually out there when we are. Until she's older I won't feel comfortable leaving her for more then a few minutes in the yard alone. If she's with an older cousin or neighbor she gets more freedom in the yard alone.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

In that situation I'd do in a second, dog included. I leave both my kids alone with my dog. They crawl on him, ride him, pull his tail and ear and if it bugs he he gets up and leaves. If he's ok with it he'll just roll over and lick them. I can't leave my 2.5 year old alone outside b/c our yard isn't fenced it and we have a busy road in back.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Just out of curiosity... are your kids good about not opening the fence gates?

Our backyard is not fenced (though it's in our plans, probably won't happen for a while) but our front yard is (short picket fence) and DS has no interest in staying outside back or front, without me or DH (although we might leave him for a minute in the front yard while we grab something from the house or whatever). We also don'have a door to the backyard (well, there is a door in the basement, but we don't really hang out in my icky basement....)

But all I can think of is, if I left him in a fenced backyard, he would just open the gate (he wouldn't necessarily take off, he'd probably just open & close the gate over and over....







) which kind of would negate the point of having a fence... Is my kid just weird about things like this, or do your kids open the gates as well?


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Just out of curiosity... are your kids good about not opening the fence gates?
> 
> ...


there are lots of styles of gates that kids can't open...For example the kind that you have to be tall enough to reach OVER the other side of the gate and unlatch...I don't think it would be that big of a challenge to stop a kid from opening a gate...Now if the kid was a climber, depending on the style of fence they might just climb over it!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Well he's a bit of a climber but he's REALLY motivated to open latches. I can just picture him climbing up the gate to reach over and unlatch it lol. I guess when we do fence the yard we'll have to really think about gate options...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Well he's a bit of a climber but he's REALLY motivated to open latches. I can just picture him climbing up the gate to reach over and unlatch it lol. I guess when we do fence the yard we'll have to really think about gate options...


my grandparents had gates in the fence around their pool and whatever lock they used it was hard for me at 10 to even get them open, without having to climb as well....I will ask them what kind of latches they were, they haven't changed them I know...also of he is a climber in general, so not dd's style so I don't have experience, I wouldn't be comfortable leaving him (if he was my little monkey) out unsupervised only because of that...DD is a chicken, shhe keeps 2 feet on the ground at all times, doesn't put anything in her mouth and won't stray far even when she has the chance!


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

I would do it! My youngest is 16 months and it would be great if she could go out alone in a fenced back yard. Sadly, we don't have one and I think it's going to be a long spring because she will be annoyed that she can't go out because I can't spend all day outside!

For me, I would be very frustrated and overwhelmed if I had to be in the same room as dd2 all of the time. We are 99% of the time on the same floor while she is awake but I leave her up or down if I need to get something. If I am cleaning upstairs, she's bound to be playing up there too, but if I were cleaning upstairs and she wanted to be downstairs on the other side of the house in her playroom, great!

We have no dog anymore but I would have put her in the "never would bite" catagory. I know I can't be 100% sure that it wouldn't have happened, but (let me speak for some others if I may be so bold) in the same way I'd let my dd roam the house without me, I think other mamas are saying they feel it's an o.k. risk to leave the kid with the pet.

My daughter could find something and choke on it; that is possible. I do my very best to have a very safe and baby-friendly household and feel I am at a comfortable risk level.


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## ErynneM (May 16, 2009)

Oh, dear. Am I not supposed to let my toddler toddle around the backyard by himself? Well, crap. He's been going out by himself since he could walk unassisted (around 11-12mon). We check on him every so often, and now that he's 24mos, he often comes running in to show me things (rocks, sticks, leaves, bugs).

Yes, he eats dirt. It's good for him to have a little dirt in his diet. If he gets parasites, well... hell, that'll prove he's human. YOU have parasites on you and in you RIGHT NOW. Feel free to squick over it, but accept the truth of it.

I think even toddlers need SOME freedom. He's watched, he's protected, but he's not hovered over.

- E


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## mckittre (Jan 15, 2009)

Our piece of land is 3 acres, and butted up against wilderness, with no fences, so we have to trust verbal limits if my 2 year old wants to be outside by himself. I'll leave him out there for a minute while I run in to grab something, if he's visible from the windows. I'll also let him walk up to grandma's (on the same piece of land) if I'm watching from one end, and she's watching from the other. We have a well that's not entirely kid-proof yet, which is nowhere near where he usually plays. Once we get that taken care of I'll be ready to give him a bit more freedom, since he's quite good at listening to limits.


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## revolting (Sep 10, 2010)

If I lived in a single family home that was fenced, I would think that situation would be fine. As someone who lives in a large apartment complex on the second floor, with no yard or fence, right next to a river in a large city in a neighborhood that's mostly quiet but does have some gang/drug activity, I don't even let my four year old outside alone.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein*
> 
> We have no dog anymore but I would have put her in the "never would bite" catagory. I know I can't be 100% sure that it wouldn't have happened, but (let me speak for some others if I may be so bold) in the same way I'd let my dd roam the house without me, I think other mamas are saying they feel it's an o.k. risk to leave the kid with the pet.


THANK YOU!!! There is a huge difference between believing that your dog will never bite and refusing to acknowledge that it could ever happen, and knowing that the possibility is there, and accepting that, and then saying that you are willing to take that risk.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

The only reason my DS (19 mos) doesnt get to do this is because our back yard is not safe. I have no problem leaving him outside to explore at our friend's house whose yard is kid safe. At auntie's or grandpa's, he would need supervision still, since they dont have little ones to show them the hazards.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *StephandOwen*
> 
> THANK YOU!!! There is a huge difference between believing that your dog will never bite and refusing to acknowledge that it could ever happen, and knowing that the possibility is there, and accepting that, and then saying that you are willing to take that risk.


just so we're clear, I know you are casually referring to me..

I never EVER have thought or will think that it is LITERALLY not possible for even the most gentle dog to bite...You are supporting my very point that the mama knows the dog and has decided the risk is minimal enough that there won't be an issue.

Not a word more on the issue I promise!


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I would totally do this minus the dog thing. I wish my yard was that safe. I think it is great that the op is doing this.

As for the dog thing, I just think every dog has it's threshold, yk? I mean, my toddler would probably stick his little fingers in the dogs eyes or something! I would be equally as concerned for the dog as I would the child, so I prob would just have the dog come in with me while the toddler was unsupervised, but that is just me.


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## goldenwillow (Jan 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Just out of curiosity... are your kids good about not opening the fence gates?
> 
> ...


Yep.. mine would open it, no doubt. I do not think your kiddo is weird. Mines not







.... well that is to be determined







.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

My (now much older) children loved their outside time as toddlers in, like yours, a safe, gated back yard. Kids seem to explore and play differently when they don't realize mom is listening through the window and checking on them. I think it has them feeling very independent. You know your kid best to know if they would do anything impulsive that is a concern. Enjoy it!


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## Mama2mc (Sep 7, 2010)

I wouldn't leave my toddler by himself, even if I was near. Mostly I'm worried about poisonous spiders (even non-poisonous bug bites would bother me), if he did get bitten, he wouldn't be able to explain what happened/what bit him. A friend that lives close by has seen small scorpions not only in her yard, but also inside her home, we haven't but I still worry. Also, we had construction work done some time ago, and I worry he might get cut with a rusty nail or something, and though we did clean up as much as possible, every once in a while a sharp object surfaces. But that's our situation, your yard is probably safer.


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## MamaofLiam (Nov 20, 2010)

If we had a yard, I would totally allow DS to play outside on his own with me checking in on him periodically. Ideally like a pp said, the yard would be visible from a lot of areas of the house so I could see out to him. In our case, I would not allow the dog out there with him mostly b/c I don't trust those two alone and I fear for the dog. She is very small and old, with very few teeth left. I would worry about him crushing her or something else as she's only 5lbs. I also think even though she is the most docile of creatures, I wouldn't want to see how far she could be pushed before she defended herself, yk?


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## poetlizabeth (Feb 19, 2011)

It is wonderful that your son has the space to play independently, and you still can be close by. I try to provide the five year I care with opportunities for independence. She likes to run in the back yard and I watch her from the window. We don"t have a fenced in yard but she is good about not going past the end of the yard.

An enjoyable book and website is free range kids, while I don't agree with everything the author says her message is one a lot of parents need to hear!

http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

its so interesting because there are mamas who have to deal with concerns that wouldn't be an issue where I am...Like scorpions!! that would scare me quite a bit...

I was feeling brave today and dd was doing her thing while I was doing mine, she was around the corner of the house, next thing I know ear-splitting shrieks from her. The dog reaches her before I do and they are both just standing there...she was screaming because the BUGGIES (her word for all bugs) were scaring her, they were ants









on a side note, I think a mama mentioned she would feel better with her dog out with the kiddo and this is just how I feel, DD is safer with doggy out there...to protect her from buggies.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Well when I was a kid(9 y/o) I got my bottom lip ripped off by my friends very trusted family dog that was always around and left with kids...so I vote no dog. I don't think I would feel comfortable leaving a child under 3 outside by themselves..as long as they were really verbal too, but I also grew up in really rough neighborhoods and am probably a bit paranoid about the bad things that could happen so...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Well when I was a kid(9 y/o) I got my bottom lip ripped off by my friends very trusted family dog that was always around and left with kids...so I vote no dog. I don't think I would feel comfortable leaving a child under 3 outside by themselves..as long as they were really verbal too, but I also grew up in really rough neighborhoods and am probably a bit paranoid about the bad things that could happen so...


that is terrible and I would absolutely feel the same way if I were YOU...I absolutely would, of course you are very wary of things that could happen, you experienced something rare and horrible.

I think it's fair to say all of us are colored by our experiences (be they good bad, or awful)...

I think neighborhood definitely plays a huge role in letting your kiddo out too. Another mama mentioned she lives in the city and doesn't let her four year-old out. I wouldn't either. If I was in a city (I'm very uncomfortable in cities) I probably wouldn't let DD go anywhere alone until she was 13 or something..


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

oh, I'm so thankful for this thread... I've just started leaving my toddler outside as well. he is not adventurous, but likes to play with chalk outside. i was worried i was being neglectful!


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## crunchymama514 (Jan 7, 2010)

I would have done the same thing, and enjoyed every minute of it! I let my children (ages 2-5) play in the fenced-in backyard all the time as long as I can see and hear them through the back doors or kitchen window.


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## MrsBone (Apr 20, 2004)

I started doing this with DS this spring. Last fall he was only about 20 months old, and I don't think I let him out there alone, because our dog is big and I didn't think he could stand up for himself if the dog jumped on him or something. When he turned two, as long as the weather was nice, I let him out by himself, kept the window open and checked on him periodically. This was especially nice when I needed to mop the floor! I'd say as long as you are checking on him and you have no worries that your dog will do anything to him(mine's so harmless it's not even funny), then you're fine. My son is also not one to run off or go explore too far away. I can see if your child had a different temperament(aka, looking for trouble) then you might want to be more careful.


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## Madalyn (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> Just out of curiosity... are your kids good about not opening the fence gates?
> 
> ...


Mine will try to do this sometimes. I've had to take a big ribbon and loop it around a million times so he can't do it. A bike lock would be a better solution lol. The playground is right down from our house so he often wants to escape and go there. I don't leave him in the yard alone for any longer than it takes me to run in to grab him a snack or the phone. I usually read or play on my ipod outside. DS rarely asks me to play with him outside but he doesn't like me too engaged in something else either. I'm too much of a worrier to stay inside while he's out and I doubt he'd be happy with it. Today was a prime example of why I wouldn't leave him alone. I was sitting out with him and he fell into an ant hill and got a bunch of bites grrr. If I hadn't been out there to yank his clothes off and swat all the ants away who knows how many more bites he would have gotten. Stupid Florida and their ridiculous bugs...poisonous spiders, scorpions, fire ants...


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> that is terrible and I would absolutely feel the same way if I were YOU...I absolutely would, of course you are very wary of things that could happen, you experienced something rare and horrible.
> 
> ...


Well yeah that's why I said I was a bit paranoid lol

Unfortunately bad things can happen doesn't mean you should dwell on them. I love dogs and our dog recently passed away and I was devastated. I just think it is a little hard to say "my dog would never" because they are after all animals and they can have limits. Our dog was a little boston terrier we got the year before I was pregnant (rescue dog) and he was the most gentle dog I ever met, but I still wouldn't have left him with DD unattended, and he was only 20lbs lol


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## CoUnTrYcUtIe07 (Apr 26, 2011)

i would do it, i wouldn't leave him alone w/ a dog, but our backyard is fenced in and this year (my daughter is 4) i'd let her go out alone...if i was doing chores etc BUT like you i'd check every 5 mins or so and not leave her there more than 30 mins.


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## CoUnTrYcUtIe07 (Apr 26, 2011)

yep i agree, i'd have the kitchen window open and the door open too so i could hear and see...but my DD is very independent already and if she wanted me she'd call for me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchymama514*
> 
> I would have done the same thing, and enjoyed every minute of it! I let my children (ages 2-5) play in the fenced-in backyard all the time as long as I can see and hear them through the back doors or kitchen window.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Well yeah that's why I said I was a bit paranoid lol
> 
> Unfortunately bad things can happen doesn't mean you should dwell on them. I love dogs and our dog recently passed away and I was devastated. I just think it is a little hard to say "my dog would never" because they are after all animals and they can have limits. Our dog was a little boston terrier we got the year before I was pregnant (rescue dog) and he was the most gentle dog I ever met, but I still wouldn't have left him with DD unattended, and he was only 20lbs lol


I appreciate your opinion but you need to respect that someone else knows their dog and has a different comfort level. There is always a small risk of leaving a child with any animal. I am more concerned about DD and our cats because they have scratched a few times when she has pulled a tail. I know there is a risk of my dog biting ANYONE...the point is I don't *think* she would ever do it (although I could never be 100% positive) and the amount of chance that she would is small enough for me to be completely comfortable to leave them alone together. DD is only getting older as well. She will only learn to behave better around our dog.

I just should have said something different than "would never"....Maybe, "the risk is small enough that I am confident and comfortable with my decision, accepting that yes in freak incidences dogs do bite."

As far as outdoor safety. In my PERSONAL situation I would only feel better about the dog being outside with DD.

I just wish that other people could just respect mothers who are ok with leaving their dog's alone with their kids.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

hmm I was thinking as a solution for the gate pulling kiddos...Could you tie a bell or something to the gate if it doesn't lock well so you could at least hear when your sneaky LOs are going through it?


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## CoUnTrYcUtIe07 (Apr 26, 2011)

we have a latch lock on our gate on the OUTSIDE of it so if we want to leave the yard we have to put our hand over....makes it so much easier. A bell sounds like a good idea too!!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I didn't think I wrote it in a disrespectful manner.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I appreciate your opinion but you need to respect that someone else knows their dog and has a different comfort level. There is always a small risk of leaving a child with any animal. I am more concerned about DD and our cats because they have scratched a few times when she has pulled a tail. I know there is a risk of my dog biting ANYONE...the point is I don't *think* she would ever do it (although I could never be 100% positive) and the amount of chance that she would is small enough for me to be completely comfortable to leave them alone together. DD is only getting older as well. She will only learn to behave better around our dog.
> 
> ...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I didn't think I wrote it in a disrespectful manner.


no you didn't sorry.. I just get frustrated repeating myself and not feeling very articulate.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

The more I read this thread the more jealous I get of you mamas who have fenced yards! Anyone want to do a housing swap for a week?


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## JulianneW (Dec 17, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> no you didn't sorry.. I just get frustrated repeating myself and not feeling very articulate.


OP- I would be very comfortable in that situation. Your yard sounds fabulous!

Ldavis24- I completely understand what you are saying. My dog a 50lb husky mutt will literally sprint across the yard or park to lick a crying child. If she hears kids playing she has to go say hello. She also will sneak onto the couch (not allowed on furniture, never has been, never tries unless..) to lick a sleeping baby and sleep with them. If they are barely sitting up she will position them between her front paws and watch themas they play on the floor. She will let them pull her hair, poke her eyes, hit, fall on, crawl on, do absolutely anything to her and she completely enjoys every minute of it. Yes, she smiles and wags her tail. She is completely trust worthy around children, she wont even eat their food. Now my parents dogs, well one does not realize his size but is very patient and the other is a Jack Russell who generally runs away when she get irritated but I definitely see her biting if she couldn't get away, was scared or they disturbed her in her dog bed.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

I would not, but that is mostly because in our specific back yard the dirt is constantly kicking up dangerous stuff. Huge glass shards and rusty metal being the most problematic. And of course my kid LOVES to dig in the dirt







.

Which sucks because our yard is fenced with a six foot wood privacy fence, and I love the idea of free range parenting.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I wouldn't do it quite that young, and I wouldn't do it with a dog. It isn't really the dog, it's the kid that could be the problem. Toddlers are unpredicatable and they try things a logical person with a fair helping of empathy just wouldn't try. AND great dog or not, kids are kids and not adults and the dynamic changes when the adults are not around.

I love having our fenced backyard and I leave the kids out there (5 and 3) plenty. I did it when they were 4 and 2 as well. And I do occassionally step in when the dogs are out with us, but if I come in for any decent period of time I bring the dogs in so as not to tempt fate.

Tjej


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

does anyone let their kiddo out without a fenced in yard?
Just curious, our yard is way too big for us to afford fencing (although we are working on it for reasons mentioned in another thread)

and it is a giant hill with some flat parts...What are your yards like if you DO let your kiddo out? Grass and flat?

Our yard has more dirt than grass most of the time...


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## AKislandgirl (Jun 2, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I just wish that other people could just respect mothers who are ok with leaving their dog's alone with their kids.


Just as its important to respect mothers who aren't OK with leaving their dog's alone with their kids. Just my opinion!


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AKislandgirl*
> 
> Just as its important to respect mothers who aren't OK with leaving their dog's alone with their kids. Just my opinion!


I agree! I don't tell mamas who aren't ok with it though that they SHOULD leave their kid with the dog...on the other hand I hear on here all the time how I should never leave my dog alone with DD...

that was my point...respect all around, I did apologize to sosurreal because she wasn't disrespecting and I was just feeling harped on...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

double post


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

My kiddo is 8 years old now, but when he was a toddler, I let him play in our fenced backyard. I could see him from the kitchen window, had the backdoor open and would check on him every few mins .. but most of the time I would be cooking, or cleaning the kitchen where I could watch and hear him the entire time. I felt very safe with it, and even had our old basset hound out there with him. Now as far as the dogs and kids go, that is a very personal choice. You have to know your dog (and not be blinded by "he would never!" when that is not the reality). Size absolutely does not matter .. we had a 9 pd mini dachshund that was more dangerous and aggressive than any dog I've ever owned, even with an older child, we ended up rehoming him to an adult-only family. But our current basset hound? I can't say NEVER, but I can say I feel confident the risk is low enough that I'm not worried. Of course, our child is 8 and feeds, walks the dog, etc. I would be more worried he would knock over a toddler on accident than anything else. I agree that if I didn't trust my dog, he wouldn't be in our home. End of story. That's why our mini is gone.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

I don't really have an opinion on the dog issue, 'cause we don't have one.

But we do have brown recluses, and fire ants, and some very large non-poisonous but scary spiders. We also don't have a screen on the door.

So with that, I don't do a lot of letting DD (26 mos.) out without me, but I'm comfortable with it in general. I often water my plants in the back while she explores in the grass or her play house. We're 30+ feet apart in a privacy fenced yard, each doing our own thing, which IMO is basically the same as kid playing outside while mom does the dishes right inside.

Here's a pic of one of our scary but harmless spiders, just for fun:


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## angela1435 (May 11, 2007)

Just have to say that I don't have a problem with spiders but something about that one freaks me out. LOL


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I can't stand spiders - and you have just given me enough nightmare material for weeks. *shiver*


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

DD saw this and said what I was thinking...."OHHHH big buggie!"

I'd be running in the other direction from that thing...Or I would let my chickens have at it!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> no you didn't sorry.. I just get frustrated repeating myself and not feeling very articulate.


If it makes you feel any better I had to google the definition of articulate lol


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> If it makes you feel any better I had to google the definition of articulate lol












thank you! That made me chuckle...I feel that way when people use some words here and I am secretly thinking to myself wth does that even mean...


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## Virginia Mom (Feb 17, 2006)

Wow, this is such a sensitive topic. But everyone obviously loves their kiddies and doggies. Our doggie is a senior now, and the kiddies are preschool and kindergarten..........but for us, even though she's a dog and we know her temperment (and that could be a whole other topic...but dogs are animals, not humans), but after the story last year about the 4 or 6 year old being killed by her dog (mom left her in the yard with dog to play....dog strangled her with her scarf or something similar) we proceed with caution.........I guess it's with everything........we want to give our kids room to grow and play, but we want to keep an eye on them............I think all the mommies have horror stories about dogs and kids are left unattended and maybe those of us who have lived thru not so pleasant experiences want to prevent it from happening to someone else..........

For us, it really doesn't matter that our yard is elevated, and our fence is a six foot privacy fence......my kiddies can scale it in a few seconds and be off to the adjacent park in the blink of an eye (had no idea they could do this till last week---even with me at the kitchen window --watching and doing dishes)---it's all about compromise........what is a mommie really willing to compromise? ...........Just food for thought


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

Dh's cousin's son was nearly killed by the family's "gentle kid-friendly" that they'd had for 10 years. The dog had been around their older children for years. The child was around 1 year old and the dog suddenly attacked, while other family members were in the room. The details of the injuries are horrific. So no, I personally would not feel comfortable leaving a toddler and a dog alone in the yard. Plus I'd be a little worried that my toddler would escape onto the busy street near our house or that she'd put something strange in her mouth. I guess we all have different comfort levels with this situation.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

I would feel comfortable with a toddler out in a fenced back yard alone. I would not leave said toddler alone with a large dog. It doesn't even have to be the dog snapping and attacking the child. It could be the dog not remembering how rough to play is too rough.

I have 2 dogs who are 70lbs each. My 2 year old isn't even 30lbs yet. A good run can knock her over, even if they aren't running full tilt. I don't leave my dogs alone with my small ones not because I am concerned about an aggressive attack, it's because I am concerned about "friendly fire." An attack of the licking tounge can still result in an injury when you have a larger size difference.


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## Yaliina (Oct 22, 2005)

Reading the OP, I was struck with a flashback of the first time I let my oldest DS play outside with the dog where I couldn't necessarily see him every second. I also remember having the same fears and concerns. What I learnesd is that if you do your best to secure the area of major dangers, and if you really trust your child (and your dog), then it is really freeing for both you and the chikd. Also, that by the second child, you don't worry so much. Chances are they'll be fine, and maybe you'll get something done in the meantime, even if that something is a well-deerved ten minutes of peace. Enjoy it, mom!


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> does anyone let their kiddo out without a fenced in yard?
> Just curious, our yard is way too big for us to afford fencing (although we are working on it for reasons mentioned in another thread)
> ...


We do not have a fenced in yard (well, it's partially fenced on one side and half of the back because the neighbors have a fence). I have a 7 1/2 year old and just recently did we start leaving him outside playing while I run in for less than 30 seconds. I wouldn't leave him outside alone longer than that. But because he has autism then the situation is entirely different because he's a runner and doesn't understand boundaries like a typical child would and would have no problem running into the road without looking or wandering off and not coming back.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

My toddler is not allowed out alone because we have a small pond (just a small ornamental plastic form pond, but deep enough to drown in. If my older two kids are out with her (in our fenced back yard), I can cook dinner inside (the kitchen window faces the back yard, and I'll keep the back door open so I can hear everything that's going on). I do not allow any of my kids to be completely unsupervised out (not because of our dog...our dog is 14 lbs and is a total wuss. Even if he did bite, it wouldn't do any major damage. I don't leave them unsupervised because we have a coyote den just outside of our fence, and an entire family of coyotes lives in there. While I trust my own dog alone around my kids, I don't trust the wild type....)


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

we have coyotes here too!

I took a night walk over Christmas with my SIL and my dog on the paved bike path behind the house. I didn't want to because of coyotes! It was only about 7pm and guess what around the corner of the path about 20 yards up there was a coyote! They aren't so small looking at night time when you are only armed with a heavy flashlight and a cowardly dog.

If we had them at our house during the day I don't know if I'd be ever letting DD outside by herself!

BTW, small dog's can do some serious damage with those little teeth! I'm not saying your dog would bite at all, I don't know him personally







, just watch out for your kids and other little dogs.

I read somewhere, don't have a source that most visits to the hospital for dog bites are from small dogs. Obviously the most serious are big dogs but quantity wise, small dogs bite more as a group.


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## bodhicitta3 (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prone_to_wander*
> 
> I'd re-think leaving your little one alone with the dog.


my thought exactly


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> BTW, small dog's can do some serious damage with those little teeth! I'm not saying your dog would bite at all, I don't know him personally
> 
> ...


100%! small dogs can be some of the most vicious. for example, i never had to kick a pit-bull out of doggy daycare but i never trust cocker spaniels and had to remove a chihuahua with full arm length leather gloves once it was so snarly.


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## kamikazismom (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm having a fence installed this week, and once it is in I plan on letting my 22-month-old play outside by himself. As long as the parent is within hearing distance and checks on the child frequently, I think it is fine


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

i absolutely have let my little ones play outside with my watchful eyes and ears on them while I was tending to things in the house. I know someone mentioned they wouldn't let him play outside alone with a dog, but I am going to assume that if you have a little one you've got a trustworthy dog. Of course, my lil ones also bathe by themselves from an early age and begin cooking with me shortly after they learn to toddle around. I think Americans are way too scared of danger and spend too much time wrapping their children up in a little bubble and not enough time allowing them the freedom to experience life. Might I recommend a book called "the continuum concept"?.... The woman who wrote it (her name is on the tip of my tongue) spent some time observing tribal peoples and how they cared for their children and she writes about little ones sitting doing things like sitting next to open pits, precariously perched with the adults off tending to other things and none of them ever fall in. or the children shooting bows and arrows or the close proximity of kids to machetes and there are very few injuries because there is no expectation that a child is too stupid to understand danger. She gives an example of a puppy playing around a fire, we'd never assume we need to keep the puppy back from a fire pit because it would accidentally fall in and get injured, yet many parents in our culture have this expectation of their little ones and it is precisely that expectation that very possibly could lead to injuries. It's a really amazing book and has instilled much confidence in my natural instincts to parent and my children's natural instincts to survive.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> i absolutely have let my little ones play outside with my watchful eyes and ears on them while I was tending to things in the house. I know someone mentioned they wouldn't let him play outside alone with a dog, but I am going to assume that if you have a little one you've got a trustworthy dog. Of course, my lil ones also bathe by themselves from an early age and begin cooking with me shortly after they learn to toddle around. I think Americans are way too scared of danger and spend too much time wrapping their children up in a little bubble and not enough time allowing them the freedom to experience life. Might I recommend a book called "the continuum concept"?.... The woman who wrote it (her name is on the tip of my tongue) spent some time observing tribal peoples and how they cared for their children and she writes about little ones sitting doing things like sitting next to open pits, precariously perched with the adults off tending to other things and none of them ever fall in. or the children shooting bows and arrows or the close proximity of kids to machetes and there are very few injuries because there is no expectation that a child is too stupid to understand danger. She gives an example of a puppy playing around a fire, we'd never assume we need to keep the puppy back from a fire pit because it would accidentally fall in and get injured, yet many parents in our culture have this expectation of their little ones and it is precisely that expectation that very possibly could lead to injuries. It's a really amazing book and has instilled much confidence in my natural instincts to parent and my children's natural instincts to survive.


I loved that book. It really helped me too, although I don't "follow" it religiously.


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I loved that book. It really helped me too, although I don't "follow" it religiously.


I don't follow it religiously, but I do see myself as having a lot more trust/faith in the millions of years of evolution that is alive and well in the cells of my children. I don't think our species could have gotten this far if our little ones were really falling pray to all the dangers of the world. But besides the trust I have in them, what I really took away from that book was a trust in my own motherly instincts. For the most part, I don't find myself ever really second guessing that inner 'mommy' voice.


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## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

I second this. I was mauled by a dog when I was 2.5 years old because a dog was left alone outside with me in a fenced-in yard. I nearly died, my face was ripped open, and it took many plastic surgeries over many years to get me to a position where you can't notice it anymore. All cosmetics aside, I nearly died. I am very cautious with my children and dogs, no matter how much we know them. The dog in my situation was my grandparent's dog.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prone_to_wander*
> 
> I'd re-think leaving your little one alone with the dog.


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## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> Of course, my lil ones also bathe by themselves from an early age


What exactly do you mean by early age?


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Oh, I agree! I won't leave my toddler and dog alone where I can't easily reach them...mainly because my toddler sucks at being nice to the dog. No matter what we do to help the toddler learn to be gentle, she's just a toddler and she pulls the dog's ears and tail and belly flops on the dog. So far, the dog's taken it all. But I don't pretend that he won't ever snap. Heck, if I was constantly jumped on by a toddler, *I'd* snap. LOL. Toddlers are more unpredictable than dogs to me, and dogs can only take so much of toddlerness. So, I can't leave them alone together...especially when she's learning to be gentle. He's never done more than just nip or bark, and I'm sure his bite can't kill her or anything, but I'm sure he could draw blood if he wanted to.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> we have coyotes here too!
> 
> ...


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Well, to be fair, a while back, people were having a dozen kids to make sure a couple of them survived to adulthood....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> I don't follow it religiously, but I do see myself as having a lot more trust/faith in the millions of years of evolution that is alive and well in the cells of my children. I don't think our species could have gotten this far if our little ones were really falling pray to all the dangers of the world. But besides the trust I have in them, what I really took away from that book was a trust in my own motherly instincts. For the most part, I don't find myself ever really second guessing that inner 'mommy' voice.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

There are also a lot of dangers that we create in our homes that are not natural. It isn't natural to stick a little stick in a hole and die (fork in outlet). It isn't natural for babies to bathe in slippery tubs with high sides (toddle in a shallow area by the shore). It isn't natural to have litres of poison lying around an area for kids to dip into a drink (chemical cleaners in our homes).

I have only read a bit about the continuum concept and I do think there are a lot of good points/ideas, but I think that there are also some good reasons for additional caution in our current culture/society.

Tjej


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> There are also a lot of dangers that we create in our homes that are not natural. It isn't natural to stick a little stick in a hole and die (fork in outlet). It isn't natural for babies to bathe in slippery tubs with high sides (toddle in a shallow area by the shore). It isn't natural to have litres of poison lying around an area for kids to dip into a drink (chemical cleaners in our homes).
> 
> ...


I really agree with this...


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Well of course you can't directly apply all of the stuff in the Continuum Concept to our lives in a modernized society!! That doesn't mean we can't take a lot of great lessons from the book and use them in ways that fit the lifestyles we have now!! I figured that was just common sense to shift it around to fit your own life. That is basically what most of us do as far as being "AP" mamas. We take what works for our family and situation and leave what doesn't, or change/tweak it enough to work for us...Same thing with the book and the principles in it...

I personally love the book but like I said I don't "follow" it or anything like that. I just took what I liked and made it apply to raising DD where it worked for us.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

LDavis that is the way to do it. Nothing wrong with that, I think the other poster saying her babies bathed by themselves was extreme, b/c like PP said we have bathtubs and not just like a little pond or w/e paraphasing here lol. YKWIM.


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

sos, my little ones started bathing by themselves at around 14 months. now, of course I keep my ears on them and go check on them with my eyes every 5 minutes or so, but my children were brought into this world with awareness and raised with awareness and so if I tell them the bathtub is slippery and they shouldn't stand in it, for the most part they don't. If I let my now 21 month old up on a chair in front of the stove to cook with me and I let her stir the pot and tell her that the pot, it's contents, and the stove are all hot and she should only touch the spoon, she only touches the spoon. I do agree that our modern world is full of a bunch of new dangers, but there are also dangers we don't face that we once did in more primitive societies. For instance, I'm not worried about large animals of prey eating my children, or them picking and eating poisonous plant life.... though I do take care in my willingness to let them be free in their world to make that world as safe as possible, the chemicals and poisons in my home are locked up (Tjej, do you really just leave your poisons "lying around"?), sharp things are out of reach and besides which we are forever discussing the dangers of poison and sharp things. And I would NEVER leave my child unattended with someone else's dog (not even my grandma's), but I trust my dogs and my training implicitly (well, and not to mention, my cat makes sure to teach the toddler the dangers of not being 'soft' with animals). Ld, I couldn't agree more, as AP mamas we take what works and leave the rest. It's not necessarily a free for all in my home, but I do try to keep to the spirit of the continuum concept as much as possible and stay aware of dangers and keep an open dialogue with my children so that they have not just fear instilled in them, but information to back it up.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Ugh, DD just figured out how to turn the shower from hot to cold and how to actually turn the water on so no bathing alone at this juncture as she is intent on trying to boil herself alive like a lobster. Not that she was bathing alone before..I just can't be comfortable with that for a long time.


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## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> sos, my little ones started bathing by themselves at around 14 months. now, of course I keep my ears on them and go check on them with my eyes every 5 minutes or so, but my children were brought into this world with awareness and raised with awareness and so if I tell them the bathtub is slippery and they shouldn't stand in it, for the most part they don't.


Really, your children are raised with awareness so they won't drown? Drowning can happen in less than five minutes and silently. Your actions are dangerous and downright stupid.

I do agree that we do sometimes over-parent, but where water is concerned leaving a child alone, particularly one who is little more than a baby, is nothing other than neglectful.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

For me the main thing is the privacy fence. It's probably because I work for CPS and hear far more horror stories than most people, but even if I had a regular fence and trusted DD and the dog, I would be totally freaked out if anyone walking by could see DD there alone. Even if I could see her and get out relatively quickly if she was in danger, I don't like the idea that someone might see her and look for an opportunity to get to her.

But with a privacy fence where no one can see the yard (which is exactly what I'm getting as soon as I can afford one), then I'd feel a lot better about not being out there every minute with her but staying close by and within hearing distance.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tessie*
> 
> Really, your children are raised with awareness so they won't drown? Drowning can happen in less than five minutes and silently. Your actions are dangerous and downright stupid.
> 
> I do agree that we do sometimes over-parent, but where water is concerned leaving a child, particularly one who is little more than a baby, alone is nothing other than neglectful.


This is so true. Someone posted something really helpful last summer about drowning and how it doesn't happen the way it's portrayed in films/on t.v., and how silent it really is. I would not even leave a trusted child for more than a moment in a tub as long as they are still young enough that I need to help them with bath time in the first place. Not sure what age I do feel comfy, I just know it's not as young as your little ones are lightinmyhands.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I guess I should jump in here and add my "trusted" dog (and he's a total sweetie, just still a puppy), accidentally nipped at my 8 year old (didn't break skin or anything). My child and I were both racing each other running, and the dog got excited. I can see how even the sweetest dog in the world could on accident bite and hurt. It makes me rethink my stance on this ... I will never leave my dog and child unattended. There is just too much that can happen, even with an older child ... much less younger.


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## cocoanib (May 14, 2009)

I've read a good bit of this thread, but not all of it!

Anyhoo- my 2 cent is no, I won't let my 13 month or 18 motnh or even 2 yr old play outside by herself. Too much can wrong wrong too quickly.

It makes me way uncomfortable, but what other Mamas are comfortable with is up to them.

Also, I have 2 yorkies. Love them to pieces and so does DD. They are great with her. Nope, would'nt let her play alone with them outside, because again too much could happen.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> *sos, my little ones started bathing by themselves at around 14 months. now, of course I keep my ears on them and go check on them with my eyes every 5 minutes or so, but my children were brought into this world with awareness and raised with awareness and so if I tell them the bathtub is slippery and they shouldn't stand in it, for the most part they don't.* If I let my now 21 month old up on a chair in front of the stove to cook with me and I let her stir the pot and tell her that the pot, it's contents, and the stove are all hot and she should only touch the spoon, she only touches the spoon. I do agree that our modern world is full of a bunch of new dangers, but there are also dangers we don't face that we once did in more primitive societies. For instance, I'm not worried about large animals of prey eating my children, or them picking and eating poisonous plant life.... though I do take care in my willingness to let them be free in their world to make that world as safe as possible, the chemicals and poisons in my home are locked up (Tjej, do you really just leave your poisons "lying around"?), sharp things are out of reach and besides which we are forever discussing the dangers of poison and sharp things. And I would NEVER leave my child unattended with someone else's dog (not even my grandma's), but I trust my dogs and my training implicitly (well, and not to mention, my cat makes sure to teach the toddler the dangers of not being 'soft' with animals). Ld, I couldn't agree more, as AP mamas we take what works and leave the rest. It's not necessarily a free for all in my home, but I do try to keep to the spirit of the continuum concept as much as possible and stay aware of dangers and keep an open dialogue with my children so that they have not just fear instilled in them, but information to back it up.


This is super dangerous to me. You said that for the most part they don't stand, but what about the one time they do.

So much can go wrong very quickly in not much water. I would never leave DD unattended in any water.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

A 14 month doesn't have to stand in the tub. Most 14 month olds can still be wobbly SITTING. All it takes is for her to fall backwards, forwards, or to the side, even from a sitting position. Babies and toddlers are also top heavy--their heads are a significant portion of their body weight and make it easy for the child to tip. Drowning is silent, and leaving a baby in the tub alone is just not smart. If baby slips silently under the water in minute 4 of the 5 minutes you leave the baby alone, by minute 5 when you came in to check, there would be nothing left to do. I can't believe on a site that promotes attachment parenting, there are people promoting detachment parenting (which is exactly what I would call making a baby bathe by herself while a parent is off doing something else)....a child's bathtime is the perfect time to bond. What can you possibly have to do that is more important than bonding with your baby and keeping her safe? We shouldn't leave a baby in a crib alone, but we should leave them in a fricken BATHTUB full of WATER alone?!

Here's the difference between a toddler not walking too deep into a lake and a toddler in a bathtub--the reason the toddler doesn't drown in the lake (supposedly...I kind of think that's a load of crap) is that the toddler can turn around and walk out. A toddler in a bath tub has NO way to get to safety.

ETA: Holy cow, this issue rallies me up. I am a mother of a child who is no longer alive and I know the pain that came from that...I hate hate HATE reading things that could very well lead to a preventable loss of a child. If the continuum concept book tells parents to leave their babies alone in the bath because nature made them smart enough to not drown in a non-natural contraption such as a man made bathtub with slippery bottoms, hard concussion inducing faucets, and high sides that can't be maneuvered by toddlers (and physically capable of getting out of the water and leaving the tub during a drowning), I personally will rally against the sale of the book and start some sort of criminal action against the authors of the book for telling parent to do something that could very well get their child killed. If it does say that, I'm really quite concerned that the AAP has not gotten involved in banning the book. Or that there aren't groups out there trying to get the book banned like they try to do with the Pearls. Clearly, this is a book I'm no longer interested in reading if this is the interpretation people have of it (and I'm not a helicopter parent. I love my kids' natural curiousity and I do everything I can to encourage it, both indoors and out. But my job as a parent is to also make sure my children are safe...not by childproofing the heck out of everything and making them wear helmets while learning to crawl, but my not letting them do things that have a very high probability of killing them...letting them play on a highway, giving them carving knives as toddlers, letting them play around in the front of the car with keys in the ignition, or letting babies be in water unsupervised for example.)


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## AKislandgirl (Jun 2, 2008)

While I think we all have different comfort levels with leaving kids alone in a fenced backyard I don't think its neglectful. I can't read about someone leaving their baby (yes a 14 month old is a baby!) alone in a bathtub without comment however. That is extremely neglectful and a horrific accident waiting to happen. Please, please rethink this. Just reaching for a toy out of reach can cause a child to slip in the tub and go under. The more I think about this the more I get upset. It's just a terribly neglectful choice.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I meant to add to my post that maybe it's all a moot point. Didn't the author of the book research and spend time among a group of people who have no modern conveniences what-so-ever? So, a bathtub wouldn't even have been mentioned in the book. So, how do members of that culture clean their children? If you're using the exact same method (sponge bathing? A small container with an inch or less of water? Not sure what would be in the book), then I guess it wouldn't be a problem. However, if you're attempting to use an athropological study of the childrearing patterns of cultures who have very little generalizability to our modern culture, you will be running into huge problems. For one, the continuum concept likely doesn't address what a child will naturally do when coming up on a busy 6 lane highway if left to 'free range' it (my guess? The young child, like any other very young child, would continue to dart into the road until 1 of 3 things happened...the child was smashed to death by oncoming traffic, someone rescued the child and called the police, or a parent was nearby and redirected the child.)

And there's a reason many cultures before our modern society had half a dozen or a dozen children...because most of them didn't make it to adulthood. Some of them died from illness. But a good majority of them died due to accidents or dying in situations that could have been prevented with proper precautions. I'd really like my children to make it to adulthood, you know?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah, my ds is 27mo, and the furthest I've gone while he's in the bath is to grab a towel off the back of the door. He won't be left alone in the tub until he's at least 4 probably, and then I'll have to re-evaluate and see how I feel.

Children can drown in 1inch of water. It's not a risk I'm willing to take with my ds's life whatsoever, and it WOULD be a HUGE problem with CPS if they were ever called


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## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> sos, my little ones started bathing by themselves at around 14 months. now, of course I keep my ears on them and go check on them with my eyes every 5 minutes or so, but my children were brought into this world with awareness and raised with awareness and so if I tell them the bathtub is slippery and they shouldn't stand in it, for the most part they don't.


Have you read THIS story? This woman's 13 month old child died in the tub alone. She thought it was okay. She checked on the child.

Fwiw, I have a 14 month old child, and he still slips around with me *right there.* I would shudder to leave a child that young alone in the tub. There have been times when he has reached for a toy and slipped under. Please think long and hard about this. It's such a small thing to do differently, and it could make the difference between life and death. Why take the chance, y'know? I'd really be so sad to hear something unexpected and tragic happened.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, I don't leave the cleaning products lying around. I do have pens around (my guess is that ink is toxic, but hey, maybe it isn't). My point about poisons lying around is that we DO lock up our chemicals and have other precautions that are not necessary in a primitive society, purely because of how we live.

The bathtub thing is really something for you to reconsider. My DD was 3 and a half and on a dock at our cabin. I was at the other end of the dock, she was bending over and playing with the water, I suggested she be more careful/move back or lay down because it is deep. She hadn't gotten back yet and fell in. If I had not had my eyes directly on her I would not have known where she was or what happened. It was totally silent. I got her out quickly but still needed to get the water out of her. A kid in a tub might make noise splashing but still, how would you know it wasn't fun splashing.

My kids are pretty good about understanding their limits too. I let them experience their own fear of heights or other things. I don't hover. I let them stir stuff too. BUT I also am mindful of danger and don't put them in situations that could be tragic by their small-child inability to see the bigger picture or lack of impulse control or being physically incapable of saving themself.

Tjej


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Ok, I just want to say that The Continuum Concept doesn't advocate leaving babies alone in the bath. I'm actually quite surprised that I've had to write that sentence









Jean Liedloff observed that babies and young children in the Yequanna tribe were quite aware of their personal limitations and of hazards in their environment. She felt that be constantly "warning" children of danger that it became a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Tell a child "Carefull! Don't fall." and you've put the idea of falling into their head therefore they fall kind of thing.

Another part of it is that they spend their pre-mobile lives observing the rest of the tribe. So, by the time they're active they've already spent 6 or so months watching their family *not* walk through the fire pit etc and they copy that behavior.

Yet another factor is that they don't live in nuclear families. So, when they bathe in the river, it is with a whole group of children of various ages and the older ones care for the younger ones.

It is my opinion that TCC has a lot of valuable insights for naturally minded parents but, of course, most of us don't live in tribal circumstances so adaptations need to be made.

I have noticed from my own experiences that my baby is quite aware of her physical limitations. I avoid "be careful!" as much as I can (although it slips out occasionally) and she manages herself very well and rarely gets herself into a situation she can't get out of.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Glad to hear that. I feel like whenever someone on here decides to parent their child in a way that is dangerous or neglectful, they cite this book saying "Well, we believe in TCC, so it's ok". It gives the impression that TCC is a manual for how to neglect and endanger your child. Glad to hear it's really just people misinterpreting the book and using it falsly to support bad decisions.

FWIW, I'm huge on cultural anthropology and I think other cultures can teach us huge lessons. But one also has to be able to decipher when the ideas learned are not actually generalizable to our own culture.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> Ok, I just want to say that The Continuum Concept doesn't advocate leaving babies alone in the bath. I'm actually quite surprised that I've had to write that sentence


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm so guilty of the "be careful!" refrain...

I catch myself sometimes but I think I say it way too often...

Drowning I believe is one of the biggest causes of death for kids under 5...Pools are so dangerous to little kids specifically because it is so silent. Besides drowning my DD could very easily turn the water on and burn herself or slip and crack her head...She still slips all over the place at almost 2...

Like I said before about TCC, I love the book, I love the theories behind it but I take it and modify to work in this world and for my family. I'm not living in a tribe somewhere where the babies are watched by everyone. It's just me and I only have 2 eyes.

We didn't babyproof at all though. Didn't lock up cleaning products (although we only have a few anyway and they aren't as toxic as some)...Ever since DD could/crawl walk I've just made it clear what can and cannot be touched. I feel like I got lucky too though, she isn't a kid who has ever really put stuff in her mouth or stuck her fingers in things she shouldn't.


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

ok, before everyone continues to be judgmental, let me clarify. My toddler is most often bathing with her older sister, and when they aren't bathing together her sister's eyes and ears are on her as well as mine. I am never out of ear shot and constantly checking on her to see that she's ok. Both of my girls are advanced for their ages and are often mistaken for being older than they actually are, so I do have a bit more trust in their abilities but at the same time recognize their vulnerability and would never do anything that would endanger them. Also, turning your back on a child on a dock is not at all comparable to walking away for a few minutes when they're in a bathtub, I would never, EVER not be holding the hand of a small child near a large body of water, let alone turn my back for any reason whatsoever. The way that I parent my children is neither dangerous nor neglectful, it is with much awareness and consciousness of both their abilities and limitations. I also understand that we live in a different culture than those in TTC, I like the spirit behind the book, I'm not trying to be literal here. I would never dream of taking my eyes and ears off of my babies like the women in the tribe do, because yes, there is an entire tribe of people with their eyes and ears open to all the children and it is an entirely different environment. I'd also like to mention that I just spent the evening with relatives who have a toddler 6 weeks older than my youngest and I wouldn't turn my back on this particular child for even an instant, I wouldn't think it was safe at all in any environment in any circumstance, every child is different and this particular one is into everything and seems to have no sense of danger or ability to have forethought.... she's also still pretty uncoordinated and unsteady whereas my toddler has been holding her own head up since about 2 weeks and has developed fine motor control far superior to that of her peers and at a much earlier age than even that of her older sister. I am not some uneducated moron who read TCC and got some wild ideas in my head that I try to implement in an entirely different society, I am a highly intelligent, educated, amazing, dedicated aware mother who read the book, loves the spirit behind it, and tries to consciously apply what works for my family and adapt that application to the individual needs and abilities of my very bright yet obviously uniquely individual children.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

My daughter is 14 months old and is fully capable of sitting happily in the tub playing with her toys for a moment or two while I do a quick chore. In the year+ I've been bathing her, I've never seen her do anything reckless, and the one or two times I've seen her slip and fall (exclusively because i got in her way, interestingly) I've been very happy to see how she dealt with it and recovered. I'm not sitting down at the computer, precisely because i am aware it can be a time suck, I'm not turning on the vacuum or going out of hearing range (not that it's even possible in our tiny apartment). I'm well aware that drowning is a potential risk, just as I'm aware of many potential risks in everyday activities that we take for granted, but it is a risk I have weighed and so I am comfortable with the way I deal with it. It clearly isn't for everyone. There are going to be many many many situations where I will need to decide if I'm comfortable with the potential risks for my daughter, and honestly, for every single one, I could probably find someone who thinks the risks are too high, or find a scary news story predicting the results of said action.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

I just don't understand when people try to justify leaving a child under 2yo in a bathtub alone. It's one of the most dangerous things you can do. Children near large bodies of water should be wearing life jackets.

I very strongly believe that when a child (particularly one that is just barely a year!) is left alone in a bathtub, its neglect. And its very dangerous - whether you think so or not - it is. Period. There really is no justifying it, b/c its dangerous.

Even when children are advanced physically (mine was walking at 8.5mo and is now talking like a 4yo), its dangerous b/c children are nothing if not unpredictable, and you never know when the first slip will happen. You never know when an older sibling will turn on the hot water instead of the cold and scald themselves, or when they'll turn on the water and fill the tub too full.

Don't believe me? Read this: http://stakerzxposed.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-02-02T13%3A06%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=20


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I just don't understand when people try to justify leaving a child under 2yo in a bathtub alone. It's one of the most dangerous things you can do. *Children near large bodies of water should be wearing life jackets. *
> 
> ...


I'm hoping you meant "on" not "near"...I would totally agree with them needing life jackets ON water (as in they are on a boat)...That's just common sense..

Making a toddler wear a life jacket "near" water is ridiculous. So every time I take my kid to the beach where I watch her closely she should be wearing a life jacket by that logic..We live within 300 yards of a pond, I guess I should have had her in a life jacket outside in the yard??....There is such a thing as over kill and that is it. Just watch your kid and it will be a non-issue.


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

every parent has to weigh the risks for their own children and find their comfort level. Life is risky, living is dangerous, it is our job as parents to minimize the dangers of life, but not to wrap our children up in little bubbles. I've got relatives that won't buy their children a trampoline they so desperately want because they believe they could fall off and get injured... where does this stop? where is the line? When do we all stop worrying so much and start living? Those of you that are so worried about a moment alone in the bathtub for someone else's child that you don't even know, do you get in cars with your kids? with or without a safety seat, motor vehicles are very dangerous things and car accidents happen all the time. " In the United States during 2005, 1,335 children ages 14 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and approximately 184,000 were injured. That's an average of 4 deaths and 504 injuries each day." " There were more than 3300 unintentional drownings in the United States, an average of 9 per day.(CDC 2006)

_U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention_ "

So, as you can see, drowning is a serious concern, though from my research family pools are the big culprit..... but driving your child around in a car is also a very risky activity and I don't doubt that most if not all of you own vehicles and probably cell phones.... who talks on the phone while driving with their kids in the car? sends a text message? navigates using googlemaps? you no doubt trust in your own driving abilities, the safety of your vehicle, the time of day and weather conditions in which you are driving, weigh the risks for your family and decide that the risks are worth that trip to the mall or supermarket or grandma's house..... no one is calling you neglectful, are they? Even though you are willingly, and frequently, putting your family in a potentially dangerous situation all for the convenience of getting somewhere faster. Just food for thought.


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## AKislandgirl (Jun 2, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I very strongly believe that when a child (particularly one that is just barely a year!) is left alone in a bathtub, its neglect. And its very dangerous - whether you think so or not - it is. Period. There really is no justifying it, b/c its dangerous.


I totally agree with this! There simply is no way to justify leaving a baby alone in a bathtub.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

No offense, but being 'extremely advanced' doesn't mean being drown proof. I realize that on MDC, there seems to be a disproportional number of 'extremely advanced' children, but at 14 months old, there really isn't a good way to determine extremely advanced. 14 months old is a BABY. A baby can be advanced in some areas but lack the maturity, body strength, or wisdom in another. My son, who was ahead on motor skills (and could hold his head up from the first day he was on this planet, was sitting unasssisted at 3 months old, and was walking before a year old, and who has an actual real IQ test results of 142, as done as part of his autism assessments), still slipped in the bathtub and began choking on the water at AGE *4*. FOUR! THREE YEARS after learning to walk. Over 3 1/2 YEARS after learning to sit alone. He STILL slipped in the bathtub and ended up with his face under the water. Thankfully, but 4, he had the strength to pull himself up, but I was right there next to him. A BABY doesn't have that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> ok, before everyone continues to be judgmental, let me clarify. My toddler is most often bathing with her older sister, and when they aren't bathing together her sister's eyes and ears are on her as well as mine. I am never out of ear shot and constantly checking on her to see that she's ok. Both of my girls are advanced for their ages and are often mistaken for being older than they actually are, so I do have a bit more trust in their abilities but at the same time recognize their vulnerability and would never do anything that would endanger them. Also, turning your back on a child on a dock is not at all comparable to walking away for a few minutes when they're in a bathtub, I would never, EVER not be holding the hand of a small child near a large body of water, let alone turn my back for any reason whatsoever. The way that I parent my children is neither dangerous nor neglectful, it is with much awareness and consciousness of both their abilities and limitations. I also understand that we live in a different culture than those in TTC, I like the spirit behind the book, I'm not trying to be literal here. I would never dream of taking my eyes and ears off of my babies like the women in the tribe do, because yes, there is an entire tribe of people with their eyes and ears open to all the children and it is an entirely different environment. I'd also like to mention that I just spent the evening with relatives who have a toddler 6 weeks older than my youngest and I wouldn't turn my back on this particular child for even an instant, I wouldn't think it was safe at all in any environment in any circumstance, every child is different and this particular one is into everything and seems to have no sense of danger or ability to have forethought.... she's also still pretty uncoordinated and unsteady whereas my toddler has been holding her own head up since about 2 weeks and has developed fine motor control far superior to that of her peers and at a much earlier age than even that of her older sister. I am not some uneducated moron who read TCC and got some wild ideas in my head that I try to implement in an entirely different society, I am a highly intelligent, educated, amazing, dedicated aware mother who read the book, loves the spirit behind it, and tries to consciously apply what works for my family and adapt that application to the individual needs and abilities of my very bright yet obviously uniquely individual children.


And for the person that quoted automobile accidents...that's faulty logic. The number of children who ride in cars is much much MUCH higher than the number of children left unattended in the bathtub or around pools/lakes/ponds. I would like to see the proportions--the proportion of children who ride in a car on any given day who are injured/killed vs the number of children who are left unattended near water on any given day who are injured/killed. The number of drownings is extremely high, per your own quote, especially since the majority of parents do NOT allow their infants around water unsupervised. So, it stands to reason that a child is far far far more likely to be killed if around water unsupervised than they are to be injured in an automobile accident. The relative risk of death via an automobile accident is far less than the relative risk of death via drowning in a bathtub for an unsupervised infant. And even if an infant was in a crash, a properly restrained infant will survive almost every crash. An infant who is improperly restrained in a car crash will likely not survive. An infant who slips under the water while a parent is at arms length will likely survive. An infant who slips under the water and is under the water for even 30 seconds to a minute will likely not survive.

Add to it, often, ground transportation is a necessity, not a luxury. There are justifiable reasons to transport an infant in a car. There is not a single valid justifiable reason for leaving an infant unattended in a tub. You can just avoid bathing a baby if you have something else to do. There is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, more important for a parent to be doing during an infant's bath than to be in that room. Seriously, posting on MDC, doing the laundry, drinking coffee, or doing the laundry are NOT worth an infant's life.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

1 yr old's being left in the bathtub alone - even for *only* 5 minutes - and on another thread leaving a 5 yr old home alone... I have no idea how parents justify this type of negligence, much less feel comfortable posting about it on the Internet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ldavis24*
> 
> I'm hoping you meant "on" not "near"...I would totally agree with them needing life jackets ON water (as in they are on a boat)...That's just common sense..
> 
> Making a toddler wear a life jacket "near" water is ridiculous. So every time I take my kid to the beach where I watch her closely she should be wearing a life jacket by that logic..We live within 300 yards of a pond, I guess I should have had her in a life jacket outside in the yard??....There is such a thing as over kill and that is it. Just watch your kid and it will be a non-issue.


Well, at hte beach is one thing, as the water is shallow close to shore, and gets deeper - they won't be in over their heads the second they touch the water. On a boat or dock I think they should be *wearing* a lifejacket - b/c if they fall off the dock you might not see it, but a lifejacket would keep them afloat and you can pull them out. On a boat, they definitely need to be wearing one. My ds will wear one at my parents dock for a good long time, but thats b/c he's a daredevil and would walk right off and I worry I might not be able to find him (I'm a former lifeguard, and a very good swimmer - but I worry about being able to see him in the lake)

ETA - I only frequent lifeguarded beaches, and if I feel like I'm not being as attentive as I need to be (b/c of chatting with friends, of talking on the phone) I will put my ds in a lifejacket, but no, I don't think that every trip to the beach requires a lifejacket. When small kids who can't swim are on docks though, they need lifejackets.


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

I have no problem letting my son play outside by himself. I encourage it. He's 4 now, and I think it is an essential part of growing up. For a younger kid, I would make sure I was in hearing distance-for his comfort, not because I think there is something inherently dangerous about playing outside.


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> My toddler is most often bathing with her older sister, and when they aren't bathing together her sister's eyes and ears are on her as well as mine. I am never out of ear shot and constantly checking on her to see that she's ok. Both of my girls are advanced for their ages and are often mistaken for being older than they actually are, so I do have a bit more trust in their abilities but at the same time recognize their vulnerability and would never do anything that would endanger them.


This sounds like my dd. Usually she is bathing with her older sister and I am still near them most of the time. When she is bathing alone, she's 17 months, I'm mostly there but I will hang a towel up or grab her jammies for 60 seconds.

From your other post it seemed like she was in there alone and you were off doing other things. It sounds like you're normal!


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

YoungFrankenstein, I understand how my first post sounded, sometimes I don't proofread before posting. No, I am not leaving her completely alone in the tub while I'm off tending to other things. She almost always bathes with her 7 year old sister, and when she's alone in the tub I will only leave to get pj's or grab a towel or let the dogs outside to potty... and my house is not big enough for me to ever get very far no matter what other stuff I may be tending for a moment, so I am always within earshot and will run to any sounds of splashing or quiet. I also did some calculating of time as our lives have been hectic since my youngest was born and we have moved several times and I was wrong on the age, it was closer to 18 months before I felt comfortable leaving her for a few moments and she was always in the tub with her sister then. I do appreciate you recognizing what I was trying to say...and not so immediately jumping to paranoid conclusions. And Ally...ground transportation is a luxury and not a necessity as many, many families do not own or have access to vehicles and I myself was carless for 3 years and we walked/biked everywhere we needed to go and I felt that to be a much safer option for my family than riding in a car, though owning and using the car is mighty convenient. And I understand that car accidents aren't always fatal, but I was in an auto accident as a teenager that left me in a coma for a few days and head injured and hospitalized for a month and recovering for many months to come. I learned in that in an accident death is not the only awful thing that can happen and I would never want either of my girls to have that experience or anything similar and any time we enter a vehicle we are taking that risk.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Well, at hte beach is one thing, as the water is shallow close to shore, and gets deeper - they won't be in over their heads the second they touch the water. On a boat or dock I think they should be *wearing* a lifejacket - b/c if they fall off the dock you might not see it, but a lifejacket would keep them afloat and you can pull them out. On a boat, they definitely need to be wearing one. My ds will wear one at my parents dock for a good long time, but thats b/c he's a daredevil and would walk right off and I worry I might not be able to find him (I'm a former lifeguard, and a very good swimmer - but I worry about being able to see him in the lake)
> 
> ETA - I only frequent lifeguarded beaches, and if I feel like I'm not being as attentive as I need to be (b/c of chatting with friends, of talking on the phone) I will put my ds in a lifejacket, but no, I don't think that every trip to the beach requires a lifejacket. When small kids who can't swim are on docks though, they need lifejackets.


You do realize I basically said what you said about the boat?







...Absolutely need to have one a boat. Legally there needs to be at least one life jacket for every person on the boat although adults aren't required to wear them...

I grew up playing at my grandparents house with their pond and dock...I bring DD to visit and she is almost 2...I don't make her wear a life jacket for the 2 minutes we are standing on the dock. If she can't behave and not go too close to the edge then I either hold her hand or pick her up...I think a life jacket for just standing on a dock is overkill, but that is just me...

Hmm I never notice if there is a life guard at our beaches (although there often are) because I am hypervigilant in my focus on at the beach all the time. I spend most of the time obsessing about DD getting too much sun (she is super fair skinned, practically transluscent) and reapplying sun screen to her. I'm a former swimmer here too...Ligeguard at the town pool and swim team teen...It is one of my favorite activities.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> Those of you that are so worried about a moment alone in the bathtub for someone else's child that you don't even know, do you get in cars with your kids?


Unless you have some sort of unimaginably gifted 14 month old, the likes of which none of us have ever heard of even, I think it is fair to say that it isn't safe to leave a 14 month old in the bathtub. Period. We don't have to know the child to know it is a terrible, foolish idea.

As a reference point, I know a family who lost a child about that same age to drowning in a *bucket*...barely filled...of water. They hadn't even considered the potential risk, which I wouldn't have either had I not known what happened.

Have you read the book The Glass Castle? The parenting in that book sounds a lot like what you're advocating for. It might be an interesting read. Things didn't turn out that great for the kids. I think they would have preferred some more supervision. When you don't supervise your kids properly, bad things happen. Sometimes, really bad things. Like a 14 month old drowning in the bathtub.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> ground transportation is a luxury and not a necessity as many, many families do not own or have access to vehicles and I myself was carless for 3 years and we walked/biked everywhere we needed to go and I felt that to be a much safer option for my family than riding in a car, though owning and using the car is mighty convenient.


I assume you've never lived in an area like I live... There are no stores within walking distance, biking is not an option because the stores are all on a big highway (not remotely safe for bikes, I tried once!), and there are no buses or anything... Having a car IS a necessity for me, if I ever want to get to work or buy food or clothes (nevermind any leisure activities that involve leaving the house)... Most people work 20-60 or more minutes (by car) from their home... Even if you want to go for a hike here, you need to get in the car and drive to the hiking trails! Maybe in many areas a car is a luxury, but here it truly is necessary.


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

APT.... I did go back and say in my last post that I've had a hectic year and after some recalculations and thinking on where we were located at different times, turns out I was off on the age and she was closer to 18 months...and not completely alone, bathing with her older sister with my ears constantly on them and my eyes checking with much frequency. I do know that in spite of being advanced for her age she is still young and needs a lot of supervision. I have heard of lots of horrible things happening to kids that I would never, ever want to occur in my home.... and I do take many precautions to safeguard against dangers, even the most obscure. For instance, to jump in on this beach/life jacket conversation, I don't take my two girls to the beach alone, I feel as if the ocean is just too big and too crowded for me to have the only pair of eyes on my them, even with lifeguards, so my DH and I take the girls to the beach together. I also don't allow them to play with water unsupervised when they play outside together as there are buckets and kids do sometimes drown in them, but in my home, with my parenting ears on them at all times and me checking on them constantly, I feel my girls are fine in a bathtub for a few minutes together while I let the dogs outside to potty or clear the dinner table (which in my house is literally just a few paces from the bathroom).

P.S. I don't think the glass castle is at all relevant as it seems like the parents in that book were suffering from some extreme mental imbalance, all the way down to the theft and the heavy drinking.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> APT.... *I did go back and say in my last post that I've had a hectic year and after some recalculations and thinking on where we were located at different times, turns out I was off on the age and she was closer to 18 months...and not completely alone, bathing with her older sister with my ears constantly on them and my eyes checking with much frequency. I do know that in spite of being advanced for her age she is still young and needs a lot of supervision.* I have heard of lots of horrible things happening to kids that I would never, ever want to occur in my home.... and I do take many precautions to safeguard against dangers, even the most obscure. For instance, to jump in on this beach/life jacket conversation, I don't take my two girls to the beach alone, I feel as if the ocean is just too big and too crowded for me to have the only pair of eyes on my them, even with lifeguards, so my DH and I take the girls to the beach together. I also don't allow them to play with water unsupervised when they play outside together as there are buckets and kids do sometimes drown in them, but in my home, with my parenting ears on them at all times and me checking on them constantly, I feel my girls are fine in a bathtub for a few minutes together while I let the dogs outside to potty or clear the dinner table (which in my house is literally just a few paces from the bathroom).
> 
> P.S. I don't think the glass castle is at all relevant as it seems like the parents in that book were suffering from some extreme mental imbalance, all the way down to the theft and the heavy drinking.


A member here almost lost her DD a couple of years ago because she did the exact same thing. She came back to the tub after letting her dog out and her DD was face down with her big brother still in the tub. After a while in the hospital, she came home and didn't seem to be suffering from long term effects but still. The baby almost died.


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## AKislandgirl (Jun 2, 2008)

Weather your child was 14 months or 18months makes NO DIFFERENCE! It is still extremely dangerous and neglectful.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

LOL, I live 25 minutes (driving) from the nearest city. I live 20 minutes from the grocery store that carries the allergen free foods we have to eat. We are an hour (driving) from the kids' pediatrician, and there is not a pediatrician in our town (not even a wal-mart or target or anything in our town). We are 20 minutes from my son's school, a school with no bus transportation. DH is 30 minutes from work. The nearest hospital is a 20 minute drive. We live in a town with no access to public transportation. I'd say driving is not just a luxury unless you live in an area that, at minimum, has a bus system. Oh, and our very rural subdivision has deed restrictions against horses, so we can't just up and ride our horse into town... ;-)

ETA: And yeah, we're talking about babies, and not adults. Had you been an infant in an infant carseat, the car accident might not have been as serious. Teens can slip and hurt themselves in the tub too (and some have even died). But those are freak accidents that are not the result of someone's lack of supervision (assuming you were wearing a seat belt). We're talking about the risks that happen when the infant isn't properly restrained in the car or supervised in the bath. Accidents can happen on a bike too, so it's not like you're risk free on the bike obviously. But a freak accident when you took proper precautions is much rarer than an accident that happens when someone's not taking appropriate precautions.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> YoungFrankenstein, I understand how my first post sounded, sometimes I don't proofread before posting. No, I am not leaving her completely alone in the tub while I'm off tending to other things. She almost always bathes with her 7 year old sister, and when she's alone in the tub I will only leave to get pj's or grab a towel or let the dogs outside to potty... and my house is not big enough for me to ever get very far no matter what other stuff I may be tending for a moment, so I am always within earshot and will run to any sounds of splashing or quiet. I also did some calculating of time as our lives have been hectic since my youngest was born and we have moved several times and I was wrong on the age, it was closer to 18 months before I felt comfortable leaving her for a few moments and she was always in the tub with her sister then. I do appreciate you recognizing what I was trying to say...and not so immediately jumping to paranoid conclusions. And Ally...ground transportation is a luxury and not a necessity as many, many families do not own or have access to vehicles and I myself was carless for 3 years and we walked/biked everywhere we needed to go and I felt that to be a much safer option for my family than riding in a car, though owning and using the car is mighty convenient. And I understand that car accidents aren't always fatal, but I was in an auto accident as a teenager that left me in a coma for a few days and head injured and hospitalized for a month and recovering for many months to come. I learned in that in an accident death is not the only awful thing that can happen and I would never want either of my girls to have that experience or anything similar and any time we enter a vehicle we are taking that risk.


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

Hi everyone, I'm the OP. Wow, this thread sure took an interesting turn!

I just wanted to thank you all for your responses and let you know I'm reading them all, albeit slowly from my phone.

Interesting that people jumped straight to my *dog* as being a risk factor, as that's something I hadn't even considered! With my particular toddler, my particular dog and situation I definitely feel the dog's presence in my back yard only made things safer, because I know he would instantly alert me to any danger, be it a person walking into the yard, another animal, or what have you.

My dog has never bitten or even threatened to bite any person or any other dog, ever. He barks a lot but otherwise is almost comically timid. The only time I can imagine him biting would be (possibly) to defend my DS. He's not an old or sick dog (he's 2) and he's ridiculously tolerant. On top of that my DS is really good about not pestering him, especially when he's outside because he's busy exploring!

So yes, while I acknowledge the possibility of him biting my DS, I'd say it's about as likely as a random person on the street biting my DS. Or even less likely, really.

However, what a PP mentioned about the danger of "friendly fire" did give me food for thought. I can see how it would be possible for the dog to knock him over or something while playing. So I am going to be cautious about that.

I'm not in denial about dogs. I was bitten by a dog as a child. I used to have a dog who, while she was a total sweetie, I would *never* trust her alone with a small child. I do think I know my child and dog well enough to trust the situation, especially when I'm within earshot, can walk to the window and see them at any time, and could get out the door literally within 30 seconds! Thanks to those who gave me the benefit of the doubt!

It sounds like aside from the dog issue, most people think sending DS out to play is fine, but obviously it would depend on the particular child and the setup of the particular yard, which is pretty much what I was thinking. So thanks!

PS. As for the gate latch issue, not really a concern for us at this point. Our guy would have to be at least a foot taller to reach that, and it's always locked, and he doesn't show any interest in latches yet. For him it's more about finding cool rocks to show me.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

good for you op...our dog did totally send dd flying once when she was chasing a ball but that was us throwing her a ball and dd ran in the way... when it is just dog and dd it is as you said...dd is exploring, the dog laying in the sun catching some rays, very mellow.


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## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lightinmyhands*
> 
> but driving your child around in a car is also a very risky activity and I don't doubt that most if not all of you own vehicles and probably cell phones.... who talks on the phone while driving with their kids in the car? sends a text message? navigates using googlemaps?


I own a vehicle and a cell phone. There have been times I have talked on the phone while traveling (extremely dangerous), but I don't ever EVER text while driving (also extremely dangerous).

But here's the problem with your counter-attack and the biggest difference with the bath tub discussion: No one is sitting here saying it is safe to talk or text on the phone and drive.


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## lightinmyhands (Dec 18, 2008)

talking and texting while driving was only one of my points.... car accidents happen all the time, even without the involvement of cell phones. I was involved in a pretty serious car accident as a teenager myself, and know first hand the dangers of motor vehicles. I choose to drive my children places in a car because it is ultimately very convenient, this is a choice I as a parent make after weighing the potential risks/benefits. just food for thought...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thandiwe*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## lemonapple (Aug 19, 2008)

As to the original question, Absolutely. I wish we had the set-up you described! We move constantly, and haven't had a yard in over a year...what I wouldn't give!! When I was growing up, we always had a huge fenced in backyard, and my brother and I spent nearly all our waking ours outside without our parents..some of the best memories of my childhood!

As to the bathtub issue...I'm sort of surprised at the responses.

I DO think that cars are more dangerous than leaving a child unattended for a minute or two in the bathtub. I also DO think that too many people placate themselves on the danger of cars by convincing themselves that they MUST live in their current residence that seemingly REQUIRES the use of a car. For the record, we are car-less and will probably remain so for the next few years. Because we are aware of this, we choose to live in areas where public transportation will meet our needs as a family. I realize that not everyone can up and leave their homes and jobs, but that doesn't make driving in a car Safer than it actually is.

Now, back to the bathtub. What about the children...young children...who have been taught water safety? What about the toddlers who know to hold their breath under water...and demonstrate said skill often? What about the young children who know how to SWIM? And, really, just what about the children who are just plain CAPABLE of bathing for a few minutes by themselves while a parent or caretaker keeps an ear out...or checks in every few minutes?

When we lived in Hawaii, there were four young toddlers...all around the age of 2 who knew how to swim. They wore floaties, and they went into the water as soon as they arrived at the beach...even though that meant they swam without their parents for a few minutes...and I mean, far out in the water. It was Lanikai beach...very calm...there parents were able swimmers and watching the entire time. The children knew water safety skills. I would imagine that those children were capable of bathing unattended in their bathtubs. And..probably capable well before the age of 2.

My son learned a bit of swimming skill from these children and their parents, and would often 'swim' far out in the water wearing just floaties while I swam nearby. i felt no danger in those instances.

My son (nearly 2.5) bathes most often wth my husband. But, infrequently, he asks to bath ALONE. I don't have a single bit of reservation about it. I know the capabilities of my child,and I trust him in the bath. I do NOT think that the bath is any more of a danger to him than a shower is to me...or a bath in a larger tub. To tell the truth, I've allowed him to bathe alone for a very long time exactly because I DO know my child and the bathtub is really the least of my concerns.

Idk, you can't just apply a blanket age restriction to things. It's a major problem in our society, and I hate to see it. You can't possibly imagine a child under the age of 4 (as I think has been mentioned) bathing by themselves? Seriously? All it takes is ONE child who is able to do that safely for the entire age thing to just not apply. It's a thing to be decided family by family child by child. And, to get hysterical about it...and as judgemental as has been illustrated by this thread is awful!


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