# Not a LEGAL requirement????



## DivineMrsM (Dec 19, 2008)

my cousin asked me how to install her forward facing seat in her truck and i almost freaked out on her. her son is a very tiny 9mth old, but he does weigh 20lbs she says. but he's NINE MONTHS! and tiny. i asked her why and she said that she thinks it would be more convenient for the road trip so he could watch his DVDs and she could give him his bottle without much effort (don't get me started lol) i told her that it was illegal for him to be forward facing yet. that he had to be 20lbs AND 1 year old.

but apparently that's not true?? he can be turned at 20lbs no matter the age? is this true? someone told me that this is the info they found on the MTO website.

is this true???


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## MountainMamaGC (Jun 23, 2008)

I have been wondering something else. I dont think my dd will be 20 lbs at 1 year. Do I put her in rear facing or forward facing?


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm not sure about the laws in Canada. I do know it's SO much safer to keep a baby RF for as long as you can - right now the highest weight RF seats in North America go to 35 lbs.

A baby is 5 times safer rear facing than forward facing. In a crash, if a baby is FF, the hanress is what holds the baby in. But there is nothing to protect the head, neck and spine and keep the head from flying forward.

In a crash, if a baby is RF, the back of the carseat cradles the baby's head, neck and spine and keeps their head from flying forward.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here are some videos that can help explain why RF is so much safer.

Rear facing crash test vs Forward facing crash test

The Importance of Rear Facing

Joel's Journey - I have to warn you, this contains images of a little boy who was injured in a car accident while forward facing. It's really worth checking out though.

Joel's Video - same warning as the website, but again, worth a look


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## DivineMrsM (Dec 19, 2008)

i absolutely know that it is safer to rear face as long as possible. that's why i was shocked at her wanting to turn him already! my son is 21mths old and is rearfacing. he's not even 25lbs yet, but our seat rear faces up to 40lbs! i plan on RFing him for as long as possible.


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## syd'smom (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm pretty sure the law is one year *AND* 20lbs, NOT which ever comes first. DD was only 18lbs at her 18mo check. She just turned 2 and is still rearfacing and will be until she hits 33 lbs.


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## eirual (Mar 21, 2006)

This is shocking!!

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/saf...ose.shtml#tips

I set out to find the law that rear-facing is manditory to 12 months since it's based on skeletal development (i.e. how long your bones have had to grow) not weight, but no, it looks like she's legally right







: It does make a point of saying that the law is a MINIMUM requirement.

DS was left rear-facing until well past 2 years old. I would do your best to inform her of the dangers to an infant that is forward-facing.

Off to find the u-tube clip...


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

From the Government of Ontario site

Rear-facing infant car seats are required for infants weighing 9kg
(20 lbs) or less. Forward-facing child car seats are required for children
weighing between 9kg and 18 kg (20 to 40 lbs), children about one year of age.
Booster seats are required for children under the age of eight, weighing
more than 18 kg but less than 36 kg (40-80 lbs) and who stands less than
145 cm (4 feet 9 inches) tall.
The way I read it is there is only a weight requirement not an age.







That is crazy to me.


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## DivineMrsM (Dec 19, 2008)

see??? crazy, eh? i sent her an email, linking the youtube crash test videos. i said i hope you don't think i'm overstepping, but THESE are why L is still rear facing. she can get pissed if she wants, but i REALLY can't let it go and let her turn her son without telling her how i feel. he's my lil cousin too.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

It IS crazy, but you are correct. It is NOT a legal requirement that a child be at least a year to go forward-facing here in Ontario. If her child is 20 pounds then legally, he can ride forward facing. Of course, it is much, much safer if a child stays rear-facing until the limist of their seat (the highest RF weight limit in Canada right now is 35 pounds.) I just turned my son before his second birthday, as he was over 34 pounds.

Now, that said, she's has to check her seat to make sure that it's legal to use it forward facing before a year and at 20 pounds. Some seats have a forward-facing minimum of 23 pounds and/or 34 inches tall, and some say that children must remain rear-facing until they are a year old.

I think it was great that you sent her the links. I hope that she leaves his rear-facing for a long time. Convenience aside, she'd feel really badly if he was injured in an accident due to being forward facing.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DivineMrsM* 
he's not even 25lbs yet, but our seat rear faces up to 40lbs!

We don't have any seats in Canada that are approved rear-facing past 35 pounds. Do you have an imported seat?


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## DivineMrsM (Dec 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemurmommies* 
We don't have any seats in Canada that are approved rear-facing past 35 pounds. Do you have an imported seat?


nope. my seat is a Cosco Scenera. got it at Walmart or Zellers. has the little canada flag on it too!

http://www.epinions.com/content_253114158724

K i just looked at it and it says 35lbs. but i SWEAR the seat says 40. i'm going to run out to my car to check.


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

I thought it was at least a year in age first then the weight requirement second. In the uk there is a height limit too but I'm not sure about here in canada. I guess I just assumed it was the same here in Canada.

We didn't turn ds until he was a year but felt it was needed then as he was too tall for the seat (though his weight wasn't over) but his feet were starting to ride up the back seat! He was also able to hold himself up and move much more independently at 1 (read somewhere between 12-14 months) than at 9 months.

Why would a 9 month old need to watch a dvd? The whole thing sounds bizarre, you are very right to be concerned.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DivineMrsM* 
our seat rear faces up to 40lbs! i plan on RFing him for as long as possible.

RF as long as possible is great!







However, right now there are no seats manufactured in the US or Canada that have a RF weight limit of higher than 35 lbs.


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DivineMrsM* 
nope. my seat is a Cosco Scenera. got it at Walmart or Zellers. has the little canada flag on it too!

http://www.epinions.com/content_253114158724

K i just looked at it and it says 35lbs. but i SWEAR the seat says 40. i'm going to run out to my car to check.

Ah. I think I know where you're getting 40 lbs from. The seat RF to 30 lbs and then FF to 40 lbs.


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DivineMrsM* 
nope. my seat is a Cosco Scenera. got it at Walmart or Zellers. has the little canada flag on it too!

http://www.epinions.com/content_253114158724

K i just looked at it and it says 35lbs. but i SWEAR the seat says 40. i'm going to run out to my car to check.

In Canada, the Scenera is approved rear-facing to 30 pounds and forward-facing to 40 pounds. It is approved to 35 pounds rear-facing in the States, but it's not the same here.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I would tell her that she might be legally able to turn the seat forward, but that I would not help her do so because the legality of the situation would not relieve my guilt if, God forbid, the worse should happen and her ds was injured or killed in a way that wouldn't have happened if he were still rear-facing.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DivineMrsM* 
nope. my seat is a Cosco Scenera. got it at Walmart or Zellers. has the little canada flag on it too!

http://www.epinions.com/content_253114158724

K i just looked at it and it says 35lbs. but i SWEAR the seat says 40. i'm going to run out to my car to check.

Nope, it RFs to 35.

OP, unfortunately Ontario has no 1-and-20 law. As others have pointed out, though, rear-facing is five times safer than forward facing. Have her google "internal decapitation."


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## DivineMrsM (Dec 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
Ah. I think I know where you're getting 40 lbs from. The seat RF to 30 lbs and then FF to 40 lbs.


crap! lol i just looked and you are right. i saw the 40lbs for the forward facing. 30 for rear. but he's tiny so i have lots of time.

i was DUMBFOUNDED when she asked me how to turn him!! i just thought it was common sense to not turn till AT LEAST one year. apparently not. but i did tell her that it was illegal and she didn't question me! lol i'm not going to correct myself now! lol


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## BeckC (Nov 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hedgewitch* 
We didn't turn ds until he was a year but felt it was needed then as he was too tall for the seat (though his weight wasn't over) but his feet were starting to ride up the back seat! He was also able to hold himself up and move much more independently at 1 (read somewhere between 12-14 months) than at 9 months.

A rear facing seat is outgrown by height when the top of the head is an inch from the top of the shell of the seat.

These pictures can explain it better.

It's perfectly safe for the feet to touch the back of the seat. Children are much more comfortable with their legs bent and crossed than adults would be. There has never been an leg injury due to RF. Infact, leg injuries are actually very common forward facing.


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## LittleBlessings (May 26, 2008)

He can NOT be turned around (Forward Facing)until he is 1 years old and 22 pounds.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleBlessings* 
He can NOT be turned around (Forward Facing)until he is 1 years old and 22 pounds.

This is for Cosco seats, I didn't see where OP specified, and he has to be 29".

No matter what the law says, if the child's carseat does not allow ffing till the child is, it's illegal and by using it incorrectly she's releasing them from liability if her child is hurt in the seat. I'm not familiar w/ Canadian seat wording, but in the US there are NO seats that allow ffing before 1, no matter the weight.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Is it 29" in Canada? In the US, the Dorel seats require 34" to FF.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Is it 29" in Canada? In the US, the Dorel seats require 34" to FF.

Yes, it's only 29" in Canada, I have no idea why. I guess b/c they can ff from 9 mos.








:


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Well that's poopy


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## lemurmommies (Jan 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
Yes, it's only 29" in Canada, I have no idea why. I guess b/c they can ff from 9 mos.







:

My guess is that it's because most seats have a written maximum of 32" for rear-facing here in Canada.


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeckC* 
A rear facing seat is outgrown by height when the top of the head is an inch from the top of the shell of the seat.

These pictures can explain it better.

It's perfectly safe for the feet to touch the back of the seat. Children are much more comfortable with their legs bent and crossed than adults would be. There has never been an leg injury due to RF. Infact, leg injuries are actually very common forward facing.

His head was at the top too, he was skinny but very long! He also protested and seemed exceptionally uncomfortable. Our compromise was to have a new forward facing seat but put it at the most extreme angle backwards, we slowly brought it up as he got bigger. I was happy that the time was right for forward facing at over a year but certainly wouldn't have entertained it at 9 months.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemurmommies* 
My guess is that it's because most seats have a written maximum of 32" for rear-facing here in Canada.

That's true, which we don't have here, except Dorel seats and it's 36" here. My kids are generally too tall about 37" anyways to rf in those seats b/c of their torso. Ilana and Evan could've made it rfing till 2 w/ the 32" limit, lol, thank goodness for shorties!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hedgewitch* 
Our compromise was to have a new forward facing seat but put it at the most extreme angle backwards, we slowly brought it up as he got bigger.

That's not real safe, either







It's not the angle that makes a rear facing seat safe.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lydiah* 
I have been wondering something else. I dont think my dd will be 20 lbs at 1 year. Do I put her in rear facing or forward facing?

Rearfacing! My son is not 20lbs yet at 16 months, and my daughter didn't weigh 20 lbs till well after 2 (21lbs at 3), so I've been there. I kept her rearfacing till 3 1/2, and I'll probably keep him rearfacing much much longer than that.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

AJ was 20# at 8 mos, he rf to 34 mos. Evan was 20# at 14 mos and rf till 47.5 mos! Ilana is still rfing now at 25.5 mos and is 26#.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lydiah* 
I have been wondering something else. I dont think my dd will be 20 lbs at 1 year. Do I put her in rear facing or forward facing?

Rear facing.


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
I would tell her that she might be legally able to turn the seat forward, but that I would not help her do so because the legality of the situation would not relieve my guilt if, God forbid, the worse should happen and her ds was injured or killed in a way that wouldn't have happened if he were still rear-facing.









:

i couldn't do it either, so that's my car sitting at the curb with a dead battery.

Can she postpone the trip until after her dc's first birthday? Could she get her dh to drive or maybe find a college student who would drive for her in exchange for getting from point A to point B?

My ds is big and was probably 20 lbs by three months, but i won't even take him on a public bus and pretty much walk everywhere or order online. i used to complain about the laws until someone told me that rf was to prevent decapitation.

If dd had been decapitated in her perfectly legal (in 1989) and much loved forward facing car seat, then maybe I would have thrown all of my love and guilt into being an activist and having the laws changed. If the same thing happened to ds with my knowing full well why the law I was breaking had been passed i just couldn't live.

That's why you see me walking all over town in the rain. No, i don't want a ride, but thank you for asking. Yes, I'm sure he's warm enough. No, the babywearing jacket and thermal underwear and rain poncho weren't less expensive than getting a new battery for my car, but they were more important. Yes, I know I'm not going to get home before it gets dark. No, i don't feel sorry for myself.


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## Love_My_Bubba (Jul 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *syd'smom* 
I'm pretty sure the law is one year *AND* 20lbs, NOT which ever comes first. DD was only 18lbs at her 18mo check. She just turned 2 and is still rearfacing and will be until she hits 33 lbs.


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## kalamos23 (Apr 11, 2008)

DD was 20 lbs. by 4 months - I can't even imagine FFing her. She will be RFing for as long as possible.


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