# Talk to me about Unconditional Parenting



## ThoughtFullMama (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm going to be blunt, because I'm hoping it will get me some really honest, blunt replies







UP appeals to me. I've done some research on it, and I'm currently reading Alfie's book on it.

Here are my issues with it: I know three families who UP and I see different issues with each one. One family has five kids, and the kids rule the house. They do whatever they want, when they want, including interrupting conversations, which I find rude. The house is a disaster because no one ever 'wants' to clean it, and of course the mother can't do it alone!

Another family has one child, and her son is thirteen and stays up until all hours playing video games and on the internet, unsupervised. That seems obsessive and a bit dangerous.

The third family has three kids, and they are CONSTANTLY playing video games, even at our homeschooling events, they have their little hand-held video games with them. They are literally glued to their screens. It's kind of disturbing; you can barely talk to them. All of the kids also call their parents by their first names, and they seem lost. They don't seem to know what to do when someone tells them they did a good job, or how to react when a grown-up talks to them. They look at other grown-ups besides their parents as if they're crazy. Another thing I find odd is that they don't just come up to their parents and ask them things, they interrupt and then whisper in their parents ear.

BUT - I love the concept of listening to your child's needs, of getting respect and giving respect, of not yelling, etc, etc. Also, I realize that it may appear odd to me because I've never seen families interact in a UP way before.

So, I guess my worry is that my kids will OD on video games, not know how to talk to people, and just generally not have very good boundaries or people skills. I'm NOT saying that all UP families have these issues, I'm just saying what I've noticed in the families that I know. I also don't like the idea of my kids ruling the house.... isn't our job as grown-ups to provide a bit of guidance and wisdom for our kids?

TIA


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

subbing.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I think that philosophies like UP and others can provide a "refuge" for parents who are abdicating their responsibilities to their children. I mean, the things you describe are pretty unfortunate. And I think that mixed in with all the really conscientious parents who are working real hard to get UP "right," there are also those parents who aren't so much UP as they are neglectful. It's just that they now have a name that they can claim for it. That's just my impression. The same way that mixed in the military with all the real conscientious and good soldiers, are the nuts who just joined up because they like the idea of killing people. I know that sounds like an extreme analogy...but what I mean is a good group can sometimes harbor a few less-than-worthy members. Doesn't matter what type of group.

The ideas in UP are very challenging and cause lots of good parents to stumble and suddenly doubt themselves. It's easy to find oneself walking on eggshells, as you embrace the good UP ideas and let go of your old, more conventional parenting wisdom (for lack of a better word)...you know, the way we were raised...the very way we are trying to get away from. It can feel like you're in a boat that has come untied from the dock, drifting.

It's easy to feel adrift. I'm too tired to go into detail right now but I can identify with your questions. I've been there too.


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## mamaluvs (Nov 9, 2007)

Thank you for starting this thread. I too am currently reading Kohn's book and it really is resonating in my heart. I have doubts about it too though. Like, I constantly feel like it is just not practical to use with a 2 year old. I can explain, explain, explain to her but she doesn't always have the capacity to get it- so I'm still forced to impose my will on her or I feel like I'm just giving in. I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control because I don't have a really good reason to say "no".

There is a UP support thread that I have read through, I'm going to post there too. Have you read through that thread?


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

From the 3 examples given, it doesn't really sound like your friends do any real parenting (sorry for being blunt, but you asked for it!







), never mind unconditional parenting.

UP does mean listening to your child's needs, but boundaries should still be set (ie. average daily bedtimes, or how many hours they spend playing video games). We are still the parents here, and our jobs as parents (according to my definition of UP, anyway) is to guide them when they need direction, and be there for them to help them through emotional upsets (ie. tantrums, etc) rather than punishing the behavior.

Telling your kids "Stop playing video games because I said so", would not be a good example of UP. But directing them to find something more constructive to do with their time (and maybe doing it with them), could be.

You don't have to say "no" to your children if that's what you'd like. But if you raise your child with RESPECT, they will give it to you back threefold. So when you tell them "it's time to go to bed" (or please turn off the tv, or whatever), it won't be a problem.

UP is about partnership. NOT about control.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaluvs* 
Like, I constantly feel like it is just not practical to use with a 2 year old. I can explain, explain, explain to her but she doesn't always have the capacity to get it- so I'm still forced to impose my will on her or I feel like I'm just giving in. I totally feel like this could lead to her having all the control because I don't have a really good reason to say "no".

I don't understand what you mean. What isn't practical? When something is not allowed (perhaps because it's dangerous), of course you can't allow it. You choose your battles. Playing with knives is a BIG no no. So you take the knife away. Battling out something you don't WANT your child to do, then letting her do it anyway is different. That absolutely could cause problems later.

CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES. If you don't have a good reason to say no, then don't say it. If it's truly a concern (like something that needs to be taken away), then gently take the object away (trade for something else if you can), and tell your child "I know you really wanted that" and give her the comfort she needs. Don't coddle the behavior, but let her know that you understand that she's angry and hurting because she couldn't have what she wanted. THAT is UP. Forcing an object out of a child's hand then leaving them to tantrum all by themselves, is not UP.

Don't go into long explanations of why... a 2 year old's brain isn't capable of understanding your explanation.

Did that clarify anything for you?


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## ThoughtFullMama (Oct 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sgmom* 
I don't understand what you mean. What isn't practical? When something is not allowed (perhaps because it's dangerous), of course you can't allow it. You choose your battles. Playing with knives is a BIG no no. So you take the knife away. Battling out something you don't WANT your child to do, then letting her do it anyway is different. That absolutely could cause problems later.

CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES. If you don't have a good reason to say no, then don't say it. If it's truly a concern (like something that needs to be taken away), then gently take the object away (trade for something else if you can), and tell your child "I know you really wanted that" and give her the comfort she needs. Don't coddle the behavior, but let her know that you understand that she's angry and hurting because she couldn't have what she wanted. THAT is UP. Forcing an object out of a child's hand then leaving them to tantrum all by themselves, is not UP.

Don't go into long explanations of why... a 2 year old's brain isn't capable of understanding your explanation.

Did that clarify anything for you?

GREAT example. Thanks for that.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

We practice UP w/ our daughter and I really enjoy it. I also have a BS in child development and worked at a daycare w/ infants and toddlers, so I have used other "methods". I am about to soak in the tub (aaaahhhhhhh..), so I will reply more in-depth to you later!!!


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

From your post, it sounds like a distinction needs to be made. It sounds to me like the families you are describing, esp since you know them thru homeschooling group, are actually unschoolers. Unschooling families generally do not have things like chore charts, imposed bedtimes, and limits on screen time. USers are UPers, but not all UPers are USers. It's not a knock on USing, either (I actually rather like the idea), but it sounds like, as pps have said, parents who like a philosophy and are having trouble fitting it to their individual families.

UP does not mean that you do not have limits or rules or that you never say "No" to your kids. It simply means, to me, that you work to achieve family harmony rather than "get your kids to behave" or "get them under control". Kohn gives an example in his book about getting his son's bath ready. Well, the son was not ready to take a bath and a fight between them ensued. Upon reflection, Kohn asked himself if it were really that important for his son to get in the tub right that minute & the answer was no. It could have waited a few minutes until the son finished whatever he was doing and then agreed to come to the tub. UP is a lot about anticipating problems, understanding the whys behind the actions and meeting those needs rather than going along, having a tantrum, and dealing w/ the tantrum.

The very biggest thing I got from reading UP was using social referencing. Parents are taught that if their kid does something mean, like push another kid, they must step in, berate the kid, and then punish them (spanking, time out, taking toys away, etc). This leads to anger, crying, and an upset to the familial harmony. Obviously, my daughter is still young (I use it w/ her, but she doesn't do these things much YET), but I use this w/ my friends' kids all the time: Your kid pushes another kid. Okay, was their a toy dispute? An invasion of space? Keep in mind that you don't need to know exactly why it happened, just that your kid had what s/he felt was a valid reason for pushing. You get down on their level and explain to them why no one is allowed to push each other. You can tell them that pushing hurts, point out that it made the other child cry or get mad. Friends do not push each other. If you need help, you call for Mommy & I will come and help you. Takes about one minute, usually no tears, and instead of your child thinking, "I'd better not push b/c I will get into trouble," they start to think, "I'd better not push b/c then Sally won't want to play w/ me." Now, when you are not in the room, which motivation do you think is most likely to keep your kid from not pushing?







If your kid keeps on pushing, you may need to leave the situation *with them*. It tells them that their behaviour is not at all okay, but that you will still always help them and love them, not send them off to the corner alone to figure it out.

A lot of the explaining and lack of punishments is where UP gets nailed by other people, but really, how many times have you seen another parent put their kid in time out over and over again for the same behaviours and the kid just keeps on doing it? Everyone will say the kid just needs more time outs & punishment. No one ever looks at UP and says, Oh, he just needs to be talked to more. Instead of trusting the relationship between parent and child, they want to up the ante and regain control. I see UP as building a trusting relationship rather than seeking to control. Mom isn't mean and tells me what is going on, so I can trust what she says. Johnny stops flipping out when I explain things to him, so I can trust him to not get into trouble.

I know it can sound all lovey-dovey and frou-frou, but once you start to trust yourself & your child to navigate through things TOGETHER, you will find that UP really does "work"! I do still say things to dd like, "Wah-wah," "Stop it," and, "No". I'm still a human in a relationship w/ another human







But that, to me, is what is important: she is another human. A smaller, less intelligent, less educated human, but still a human. There are things she cannot have or do, but dh and I have told her (and keep telling her) why not. B/c we have laid this foundation, she WILL often stop doing something when we say No w/out an explanation. She trusts us b/c we have told her before what is going on, not b/c we tapped her hand. Like a pp said, you don't just take the knife away and say, "No," and that's the end of the story. You tell them why & offer a substitute. If they cry, it's okay, they are upset. Crying and yelling are how they express their emotions, NOT behaviours that should be punished. You acknowledge that they wish they could have the sharp knife, but it is dangerous & they could get hurt. It is for grown ups only. You may need to repeat it a few times, and then the discussion is over, even if they keep asking about it. Sometimes they throw a little tantrum, sometimes not. No big deal, they are upset, life is now moving on.

I definitely recommend that if you decide to give UP a shot & you have questions geared towards specific behaviours, check out the UP support thread. Obviously, not all kids are content to just cry; some (like dd) will hit, throw things, shriek their lungs out, run away, etc, and other parents w/ kids who do/did that can offer great advice on how to deal w/ that in a UP manner. Things like parents who have not shown their kids how to greet someone by shaking their hand and saying hello, or when it is not polite to be reading/playing a video game, well, that stuff happens in all kinds of families no matter what type of discipline they use.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)




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## ThoughtFullMama (Oct 1, 2009)

Dogretro~ wow. that was an awesome post







thanks!


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Hi everyone...Didn't know if I should start a new thread or just add to this one, so I'll add to the existing one and hopefully the mods will move it if it needs it's own thread.

I'm relatively new here. I'm newly married currently 8 weeks pregnant with my first child. So, I don't have much practical expereince to go from, but I've been reading up on some of these different parenting methods. I've studied child development and sociology and different, practical parenting styles. My style so far is to be sort of a "cafeteria parent"...Take what I like from the various philosophies and discard what I don't like. And I acknowledge that many of the notions I have now this might change once my little one is born.

So, about Unconditional Parenting: I really like the concept of honoring and respecting your children as individuals, as human beings first, instead of "just my kids" you know? My concern mostly lies in some of the things Ive read in the UP Support thread about requiring "obedience" from our children, and how that's an outdated concept, etc. I'm Catholic and I believe (as my Church has taught for many, many years now) that learning obedience to authority figures is a way that children learn obedience to God. So I guess my question is...First of all, did I characterize that tenant of UP correnctly? If so, are there any Christian moms here who agree with me or who could tell me how they reconcile this with the principles of UP?

Thanks in advance for any replies.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Amanpea,

I see where you're coming from, and as a humanist/atheist, I still "require" obedience from my children.

This is one of those areas where many, many parents find they differ in their approach.

For me, I am NOT my kids' best friend. I am their mentor, their mother, their example, their solace in times of strife. But since I do not want to be their best friend, I do want to keep them safe...from running across roads without looking, from strangers with bad ideas,from ugly thoughts, from sickness, from too much sugar. You know?

And when many other moms hear that I expect my children to be "obedient," they think I mean they should walk behind me like ducks in a row, with head scarves straight and neck-ties tight, with no sense of self or of fun.

This is not obedience. Not to me.

HTH. And congrats on the baby!

love, penelope


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
Amanpea,

I see where you're coming from, and as a humanist/atheist, I still "require" obedience from my children.

This is one of those areas where many, many parents find they differ in their approach.

For me, I am NOT my kids' best friend. I am their mentor, their mother, their example, their solace in times of strife. But since I do not want to be their best friend, I do want to keep them safe...from running across roads without looking, from strangers with bad ideas,from ugly thoughts, from sickness, from too much sugar. You know?

And when many other moms hear that I expect my children to be "obedient," they think I mean they should walk behind me like ducks in a row, with head scarves straight and neck-ties tight, with no sense of self or of fun.

This is not obedience. Not to me.

HTH. And congrats on the baby!

love, penelope

Thank you for pointing this out. I think 'obedience' is such a problematic concept because, like you say, people have an image of what it looks like, and in reality it differs from family to family.

I practice UP, and I think Dogreto explains it really well - thanks! I only have a minute but just wanted to say, Spruce, I think you CAN have a 'parental' relationship with your children AND be a friend to them. I don't think it's either or. Of course, I am still relatively new to this as I only have one two year old, but I think its something that Scott Noelle (who's a UP oriented writer/coach) points out. A lot of our thinking around parenting and children is black and white, either/or. UP is a lot about embracing some lateral thinking and allowing other possibilities to emerge: possibilities like being supportive to your child and empathic with their emotions, but at the same time giving guidance and setting boundaries.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
My concern mostly lies in some of the things Ive read in the UP Support thread about requiring "obedience" from our children, and how that's an outdated concept, etc. I'm Catholic and I believe (as my Church has taught for many, many years now) that learning obedience to authority figures is a way that children learn obedience to God. So I guess my question is...First of all, did I characterize that tenant of UP correnctly? If so, are there any Christian moms here who agree with me or who could tell me how they reconcile this with the principles of UP?

I'm not Christian, and not very interested in teaching my kids to be obedient to authority, but I don't think requiring obedience has to be completely at odds with UP.

I think you could be a UP parent and still expect obedience. Maybe it would look something like this:

Mom: Your water spilled. Go get a rag so you can wipe it up.
Kid: I won't!
Mom: It's not okay to say, "I won't!" when I ask you to do something. God wants children to obey their parents, just as we all should obey Him.
Kid: I don't care. I won't do it!
Mom (realizing kid is tired and hungry): Why don't you come snuggle with me for a bit and have a snack, and then we'll try this again?

OR

Mom: Okay, I'm not going to fight with you about it. Maybe you're too tired and hungry to do what I ask right now. But the next time I ask you to do something, I'll expect you to obey.

OR

Mom: It's my job to teach you to obey, so I'm going to help you to obey. [Puts rag in his hand, takes him to spill, and moves his hand for him to wipe it up.] You look angry. [Hugs him.] You could probably use some extra love now. Let's go snuggle together.

Non-UP ways to handle the situation would look more like these:

Mom: Okay, I'm putting you in time-out.

Mom: Go to your room, and don't come out until you're ready to wipe up your spill.

Mom: I'm disappointed in you. Good children obey their mothers. I wish you could be a good child.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

*CRINGE* I hate, hate, hate the word "obey".

How about something like:

Mom: Oh no! You spilled your water! No biggie. Here's a rag so you can clean it up.
Child: No!
Mom: Excuse me? No THANK YOU, please. Howcome you don't want to clean it up?
Child: I don't want to.
Mom: Why don't you want to?

(Work from here to find out why the child doesn't want to clean up his/her own mess.)

Mom: Is it because you're tired or hungry?
Child: No reply.
Mom: Would you like to use a different cloth?
Child: A different cloth.
Mom: Okay. Here's a different cloth. (Maybe let the child pick one. Then explain nicely how we each clean up our own messes, or how we don't ask them to clean up ours.)

(etc)

I don't see this as being disobedient at all. Children are not robots and they don't follow "orders" well. But this is a case of problem solving, not defiance. Working through the problem to find the solution is much more UP than asking your kid to "okay you the next time".


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow. Where to start with that [Daffodil's post]. Umm. If you want a child who is obedient, I suppose that's the way to go, but I question why one would want that sort of "blanket obedience." (think ahead in life to when school is the authority, but they're teaching junk; or when corporations are the authority, but they're selling dangerous products; when the doctor is the authority, but they're beholden to corporations; when the child's soccer coach is the authority, and he happens to be a child abuser; when an adult who's a drug dealer is the authority (just because they're the adult), and they're telling the kid to take something or do something harmful....

YES I know these examples are extreme! But I am trying to raise a kid who can think for himself. I think there's a religious difference here. I won't tell him what to believe; he will decide for himself, having learned & watched what we, his parents, believe.

On the other hand, we want him to obey when life & limb are at stake (i.e. "stop! get out of the traffic!" "Don't go by the cliff!!" or whatever), and we believe that because we are not bullying with forced obedience over every LITTLE thing through authority that is borne merely of our greater power and advanced age, then when it comes time to REALLY tell him to do something that is important, they know we really mean it. We've established a track record of trust.

This kind of independent thinking is at direct odds with the religious "the husband obeys God; the woman obeys the husband; kids obey adults" sort of hierarchical model.

This is a big philosophical discussion that could get this thread to the 5-page mark pretty quickly, I think! But it's not UP. I don't think it's UP at all, even if done allegedly gently.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
This is a big philosophical discussion that could get this thread to the 5-page mark pretty quickly, I think! But it's not UP. I don't think it's UP at all, even if done allegedly gently.

I could not agree more.

To expect your kid to OBEY you when running into traffic, is a safety issue. It has nothing to do with complying with a demand... imo anyway. And if raised with trust and respect, they're going to know regardless that you mean business and you're shouting for them to stop for concern of their safety, and not because you're trying to "control" their behavior.

Again, to obey or not to obey... I HATE THAT WORD. lol


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## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

OP, just quickly to mention that the scenarios you describe to me sound like "permissive parenting."

(Barbara Coloroso in Kids Are Worth It does a nice description of authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive parenting.) I strive for authoritative - that is, teaching and setting reasonable boundaries - but for me the keys I got from Kohn and Unconditional Parenting have to do with the primacy of the relationship with each of my daughters as their own people. And emphasizing mutual respect for the basis of decisions in our family, both theirs and ours.

So far I have a great respectful relationship w/my almost 8 year old, and we listen to each other's feeling, work out conflicts, make decisions together. And my toddler is doing pretty well for a toddler, lol... but I will say I feel all bets are off in the teen years. I don't know what to expect there. I hope our relationship has set us up well for that, but who knows?


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

What about the following? This is pretty much how this would go here:

Mom: Oh no! You spilled your water! No biggie. Here's a rag so you can clean it up.
Child (4 y.o.): No!
Mom: Well I don't want everyone else to get their socks all wet, so I guess I'll clean it up. Doesn't seem very fair since it's your mess though.
Child: I don't want to.
Mom: Okie doke. _*start cleaning up water*_ I think after this I'll go dig the sippy cups out of the cabinet. I don't want to keep cleaning up messes that aren't mine, so next time you ask me to get you a cup I'll get you one of those.
Child: I don't WANT to drink out of a sippy cup!
Mom: Well I don't want to clean up your spills. Do you have a better idea?
Child: I can clean up my own spills...
Mom: I think that's a great idea! Spills are no big deal if you clean them up real quick...I clean up all of MY spills. Do you want to finish this with my rag or get your own?
Child: I want my own. _*runs and grabs rag and finishes wiping*_

I'm not sure if what we've been doing is UP (just found out about that from here!) but it seems awfully close. I wonder about a couple things though. Part of respecting them like any other human has meant to us that WE are also respected like another human being...so giving him a sippy next time might be construed as a "punishment" but I just see it as the natural consequence of having to clean up someone elses mess. If my neighbor broke my lawnmower when he borrowed it, I would just fix it and then not lend it out again. On the otherhand, if he fixed it up I would have no problem lending it out in the future...not lending it out was not a coersive punishment as much as me just not wanting to have to fix it again in the future.

Also it seems like there is a concept of "lack of praise" that I'm not sure I understand completely. I totally get that it's bad to make the kids think your love depends on how they behave, but is it bad to tell them how an action affected others? I tell them how awesome it is that they worked together to BOTH be happy when they work out a toy sharing plan (they are 5 and 4) and I told them the other day that breaking all the crayons made me a little sad because now they are too small for the baby to use. They agreed that it was sad that the baby couldn't color anymore and came up with a plan (on their own) to use some piggy bank money to buy new crayons JUST for the baby. I told them that I though that was a GREAT idea because now the baby can color again and he would be sooooo happy. I would never imply that their actions are due to some deep flaw in the child, and don't withhold hugs or love, but I guess I am not sure if in UP you are also suppossed to shield the child from the natural reactions others might have to them? Knowing that something I do might cause unjust pain or suffering in another is the biggest factor in what I choose to do or not do as an adult.

Otherwise I think we have the whole "questioning" thing down. I have always hated "because I said so" and explaining everything to the kids has really helped me be aware of when something is really important. Listening to their explanations has also helped us come up with ways to work things out much more productively than just coming up with a one-sided solution. I'm going to go look for more UP info now...


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## thehighernest (Aug 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 

Also it seems like there is a concept of "lack of praise" that I'm not sure I understand completely. I totally get that it's bad to make the kids think your love depends on how they behave, but is it bad to tell them how an action affected others? I tell them how awesome it is that they worked together to BOTH be happy when they work out a toy sharing plan (they are 5 and 4) and I told them the other day that breaking all the crayons made me a little sad because now they are too small for the baby to use. They agreed that it was sad that the baby couldn't color anymore and came up with a plan (on their own) to use some piggy bank money to buy new crayons JUST for the baby. I told them that I though that was a GREAT idea because now the baby can color again and he would be sooooo happy. I would never imply that their actions are due to some deep flaw in the child, and don't withhold hugs or love, but I guess I am not sure if in UP you are also suppossed to shield the child from the natural reactions others might have to them? Knowing that something I do might cause unjust pain or suffering in another is the biggest factor in what I choose to do or not do as an adult.


If I understand the UP concepts correctly, then I believe what you describe here is exactly what the book recommends, which is to, when someone has been "harmed," to place the focus on the harmed party. You didn't tell your children that they were "bad" for breaking the crayons -- you explained why that action hurt you and the baby.

But I don't think this is really a praise issue?. The praise concern seems to be more about saying "good job" out of rote. And though Kohn recommends alternatives to this (say nothing; make a comment about what was done, how it affected the receiving party; ask questions), I think the book even says that there is nothing wrong with a genuine "good job."


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

As you can see, I have given this topic LOTS of thought, lol! We had a UP book discussion many months ago & talked about one chapter per week, which gave us a lot of time to think and share ideas. It was VERY helpful and a great discussion time!!

Amanpea, dh and I are devout Christians, so I can see where you are coming from! I think it is important to remember that God does want us to obey Him, but _He always tells us why_. I do expect dd to listen when I tell her not to do something & I tell her why. Just now she was stepping on dh's closed laptop. I told her not to step on it b/c it could break and dh would be v upset. I used a low, stern tone of voice, but not nasty or yelling. She looked at me and continued to do it. I said it again & she kept stepping. I asked her if I needed to come and move her & she stopped and went to play w/ a toy. If she does it again, I will again tell her that it could break and dh would be v upset. She may not remember from before. Eventually she will. She may also not have the impulse control to stop on her own yet, so I offer to help w/ that control. God's people were always messing up in the Bible and He always gave them reminders and helped them and had them start again. Yes, there is tons of vengeance in the Old Testament, but Jesus came so that we would not have to suffer God's wrath again. Jesus expected His Apostles to listen & watch & learn, but he never punished them. Sometimes He pretty much called them idiots, lol, but He never sent them to time out for doubting Him








In the end, most of them sacrificed their lives out of devotion to Him, so I would say that they got pretty good at listening! Dh and I have talked about how we live in a revenge culture where when someone does something bad, we want to punish them (get revenge, really). We do not want to raise our kids by seeking revenge on them. We want to extend to them the kind of grace that God has extended to us. We want them to obey God b/c they love Him, not b/c they fear him; same as w/ us. I do not walk around (anymore) thinking that I must do what God says or He will punish me. Now I do what God says b/c I am so thankful towards Him and want to devote my life to Him. This is so much more freeing, relaxing, and JOYFUL







I think UP fits perfectly w/ Christian beliefs b/c God always understands where we humans are coming from. Yes, He gets furious and lets us know, but He always extends His grace to us and helps us to stay on the "straight and narrow."

Kreeblim, your post sounds EXACTLY like UP! Although I will argue a bit of semantics: giving a sippy cup is a logical consequence, not a natural one. A natural consequence would be something like leaving the spilled water so that the child may step in it and get wet. This natural vs logical thing has been discussed & cleared up many times here on MDC so I KNOW it gets v confusing to people v quickly!

The praise thing, I think you have it just right. UP does not mean that you never praise, but that you praise the action, not the child. Kohn seems to favor the phrase, "You did it," over, "Good job." I'm also a fan of Haim Ginott & he tackles this issue in his book _Between Parent and Child_ w/ much more detail than Kohn does in _UP_. Instead of saying something like: "Wow, you moved that box all by yourself! You are very strong!" you would say something like: "Wow, you moved that box all by yourself! It looked like a difficult task." Instead of the child being able to deny that he is strong (as they often may), he can think to himself Yes, it was difficult. I must be strong to have done it. Or, No, it was easy. I must be strong. Telling a child that you are angry at something they did is okay. We are not robots ourselves and have emotions. The actions of others, including those of our children, DO affect us! Ginott again says that it is better to tell your child that you are really upset b/c of a mess, something broken, disobedience, etc b/c they have those emotions, too, and need to know that it is okay to feel them and how to express them constructively. You would start by stating (even in an angry tone!) that you are angry, mad, furious! Then why you are so mad. In your example, when you said it wasn't fair that you had to clean up but that you would do it anyway b/c you cared about the others, that was a good example of expressing your displeasure. There is no need to feel happy about cleaning up yet another mess or letting your child think that you are happy to do it. Again, social referencing is HUGE to UP as far as building intrinsic motivations. If kids don't know that something hurts another person (physically or emotionally), why would they understand not to do it?

FTR, dd did not step on the computer again


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 
Also it seems like there is a concept of "lack of praise" that I'm not sure I understand completely. I totally get that it's bad to make the kids think your love depends on how they behave, but is it bad to tell them how an action affected others? I tell them how awesome it is that they worked together to BOTH be happy when they work out a toy sharing plan (they are 5 and 4) and I told them the other day that breaking all the crayons made me a little sad because now they are too small for the baby to use. They agreed that it was sad that the baby couldn't color anymore and came up with a plan (on their own) to use some piggy bank money to buy new crayons JUST for the baby. I told them that I though that was a GREAT idea because now the baby can color again and he would be sooooo happy.

I don't think there's any big problem with what you said in these examples. But you might want to ask yourself: why did you want to tell your kids how you felt about their actions?

Did you feel like it was important for them to know you approved, or that it would make them feel good to hear positive feedback, or that if they heard positive feedback it would make them more likely to act the same way in the future? If you had any of those things in mind, I'd say you were veering toward the kind of praise Kohn recommends against.

If you just wanted to make sure they understood that their actions were indeed helpful to others, I'd say that was fine.


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## ThoughtFullMama (Oct 1, 2009)

Dogretro~ Your posts are great. Thanks for putting in your thoughts


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Wow, such thoughtful people on this board!







Thank yall so much for the replies. It's given me some good perspective. And I appreciate all the varied advice given in the spilled water example. These are things I never would have thought of.

Just wanted to reply to the poster (sorry, I don't have the reply with quotes thing down yet







) who worries that if a parent firmly requires obedience from a child, the child is liable to mindlessly "obey" people in authority who don't have their best interests in mind, are trying to hurt them or are trying to get them to do something hurtful/illegal/immoral, etc. I don't think that logic necessarily follows (in a general sense), because a child can be taught the difference.

I know this because *I* was, and my brother and cousins all were. We absolutely knew that we HAD to obey mom and dad and grandma and our teachers and the crossing guard at school, etc. BUT we were also taught that it was possible for adults to abuse their authority and ask us to do inappropriate things, and in those case we were to NOT obey; we were to refuse the inappropriate request and go seek assistance from another adult immediately. (OR, call 911 if necessary). And I've grown up knowing that sometimes in the workplace and in politics, authority must be challenged. Children are intelligent and I don't think it's in any way impossible to teach them the difference and how to be discerning and prudent in all their dealings with authourity figures. Hope that made sense.

And to the fellow Christian poster who brought this up, I 100% agree with making sure our kids understand the "whys" behind what we ask. Do you think that shows that you respect them (and their intelligence) enough to explain your reasonings?


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NellieKatz* 
Wow. Where to start with that [Daffodil's post]. Umm. If you want a child who is obedient, I suppose that's the way to go, but I question why one would want that sort of "blanket obedience."

Well, I certainly don't want that kind of obedience. I'm a "question authority" kind of person myself. But amanpea didn't ask, "Is it a good idea to require obedience?" She asked whether requiring obedience was at odds with UP, and I don't think it has to be. (Though I don't think it fits in all that well with the spirit of the UP concept.) I think parents can follow UP and still have rules and requirements - that a child must always be strapped into a carseat while driving, or that teeth must be brushed every night, for instance. So I suppose if you believed that obedience was as important as riding in a carseat, you could make obedience a requirement.

In my house, the spilled water scenario would probably go something like this:

Mom: Oops, your water spilled! Can you grab a rag and wipe it up?
4 year old: No! I won't!
Mom: Okay, I'll do it.

No point turning everything into a battle. Now, if it was my 6 year old, I'd say, "Come on, sweetie, you spilled it. Don't you think it's only fair for you to take a minute to wipe it up?" (But I can't imagine her refusing in the first place.)


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 
What about the following? This is pretty much how this would go here:

Mom: Oh no! You spilled your water! No biggie. Here's a rag so you can clean it up.
Child (4 y.o.): No!
Mom: Well I don't want everyone else to get their socks all wet, so I guess I'll clean it up. Doesn't seem very fair since it's your mess though.
Child: I don't want to.
Mom: Okie doke. _*start cleaning up water*_ I think after this I'll go dig the sippy cups out of the cabinet. I don't want to keep cleaning up messes that aren't mine, so next time you ask me to get you a cup I'll get you one of those.
Child: I don't WANT to drink out of a sippy cup!
Mom: Well I don't want to clean up your spills. Do you have a better idea?
Child: I can clean up my own spills...
Mom: I think that's a great idea! Spills are no big deal if you clean them up real quick...I clean up all of MY spills. Do you want to finish this with my rag or get your own?
Child: I want my own. _*runs and grabs rag and finishes wiping*_

While I'm not sure I would threaten to take the cups away, I really like this example. And Kreeblim makes a good point on how we deal with a situation (or this one specifically), is very much age related. I certainly wouldn't use the same method with a 2 year old that I would with a 6 year old.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I think that's a false dichotomy, if that's the right word. The idea that if a parent is against "blanket" obedience then they must mean they want to be the child's friend.

My child knows that the parents are the ultimate authority in our house. I don't want to be a "buddy" or anything, but I do want a good relationship where he knows I'm not out of my mind, that I can be trusted and be reasonable. We'll need that later; heck, we need it now, even at this age!

I don't know, maybe I am wording this ALL WRONG. Of course I expect him to obey when I hand him a command. But I think the difference here is I don't just command him all day long, whether the commands make any sense at all, "because I'm the mother, that's why." As one of the parents in charge, it is my responsibility not to abuse the power that I have. I do not micromanage.

Example: there was another post in another thread, where the mom told the girl that she had to brush her hair before they went to swim class. The child refused and basically had a tantrum. The tantrum is a separate issue. But as to telling her to brush her hair....that's not necessary. It might be a suggestion, but if the child doesn't want to brush her hair, the natural thing that will happen is a bunch of tangles. And the swim teacher won't let her take part in the class. At which point the girl would either (a) brush her hair and put it up for swim class or (b) we'd have to sit it out on the sidelines and watch the class take place without her.

Any other example could be inserted, like inappropriate clothing or whatever. But why make it a command when you could instead tell the child why it's necessary and then let her make the choice, and experience the consequences directly? She is a growing child who wants to be taken seriously, and the command to brush the hair is just, to me, arbitrary use of power.

Obviously a minor example--I am sure there are better ones out there--and I hope that in my haste I am making sense. I have to get off this computer soon, as my eyes are tired.

But the idea is, my word is the final authority, but my son's day isn't filled with a thousand tiny orders, either. Because I really think kids know when we're telling them to do utterly unnecessary nonsense. And nothing good comes of it.

Oh boy, I hope all of this is appropriate; I have been skipping around through different (but similar) threads all day and I just want to wrap this up and sign off. Take from it what you will!


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## buttercups.nest (Jul 2, 2009)

I want in on this discussion but my little one is wanting to be fed


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

I'm a little frustrated that all the examples here seem to be those involving young children.

What about teens? When do you stop being so talkative and just lay down rules?

Yes, I do do that. Yes, I do have standards. I do expect my 17 yo to keep her personal appearance at a certain level, because we have a set of standards that we, as parents, think are appropriate.

I understand not yelling at a 2 yo who spilled water. But a 4yo who WON'T help clean up? Come on. And a 12 yo who defies you or yells or hits siblings?

When do you stop negotiating and start imposing rules? It's so nicey nice to think that all kids are going to be lovey perfect if you just "treat them with respect," which in this forum seems to mean "Stop imposing any rules at all and let them have at it..." But the reality is that kids need us to set some boundaries.

Especially in the teen years.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

I don't want to overshadow Spruce's question, so in addition to the above post I have one more question whenever yall get a chance.









In the UP support thread I found this posted:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneyTree* 
This stuff is so DEEP and HARD sometimes! I almost cried when he started talking about how pointing out what a child is doing well (i.e. sharing) makes them do it LESS! All I could think of was how I had made ds a less intrinsically generous person each time I told him that I noticed how much the other child appreciated his sharing, what a kindness that was, etc.

I'm not commenting personally on HoneyTree's post or views, etc., but just have a question about the principle she mentioned. It seems to me (having not read the UP book yet and being a newbie to all this) that the opposite would be true....That confirming good behavior would encourage the good behavior in the child. This is my "old" thinking anyhow, which I've never thought to question. Do I have this backwards somehow according to UP? And if so, I would love to know the reasoning behind it because on my own I'm having a hard time figuring it out. Thanks again!


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
I'm not commenting personally on HoneyTree's post or views, etc., but just have a question about the principle she mentioned. It seems to me (having not read the UP book yet and being a newbie to all this) that the opposite would be true....That confirming good behavior would encourage the good behavior in the child. This is my "old" thinking anyhow, which I've never thought to question. Do I have this backwards somehow according to UP? And if so, I would love to know the reasoning behind it because on my own I'm having a hard time figuring it out. Thanks again!









The book where Alfie Kohn talks about this in even more detail than in UP is Punished by Rewards. Basically, there is research showing that giving kids rewards (and praise is a kind of reward) for a behavior makes them less likely to _want_ to perform that behavior. They may feel motivated to do it in situations where they know a reward is possible, but they start feeling less internal motivation to do it, and become less likely to choose to do it just because they want to. So a kid who is praised for sharing may share when an adult is watching, but may not see much reason to when no adults are around, because in his mind sharing has become something he does for praise, not something he does because he's thinking about the other child. If you're skeptical, read Punished by Rewards. I found it fairly convincing.


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## lisavark (Oct 27, 2007)

I have to jump in on the Christianity and UP discussion, since I'm a Christian who believes in UP. Mind you, I'm a pretty liberal Christian, theologically speaking, so, well, my opinions might not resonate with everyone.









Anyway, amanpea, one of the reasons I LOVE UP so much is because I think it's very similar to how God treats us. Sure, the Bible talks a lot about consequences for bad behavior. But how much more often does God demonstrate patience, love, and forgiveness? Look at Jesus, forgiving the people who were killing Him...and dying in order to make forgiveness possible for everyone...look at people like David and Moses and Abraham, whose many mistakes never had any impact on how much God LOVED them--and how much He used them, despite their mistakes. The whole point of UP is unconditional love. What could be more Christian than that? The purpose behind UP is to seek to offer unconditional love to our children, no matter what they do, no matter what mistakes they make, no matter how frustrated or angry we get. Isn't that EXACTLY what God the Father does for us? I think if you take the Bible as a whole, you see that God teaches obedience NOT by punishments and rewards but by unconditional, unfailing love and forgiveness. And that is what UP is all about.

Oh, and choices! Offering choices! And allowing children to live with the consequences of their choices, in an age-appropriate manner, of course. Isn't the whole concept of sin even being possible based on the idea that God ALLOWS us to choose? The garden of Eden and the apple was set up so that humans could choose to obey or not, right? And when they chose to disobey, God didn't force them, or manipulate them, or even get angry. He gave them some natural consequences and let them live with it. UP is about offering the same kinds of choices to children. They won't ever choose to obey unless they're offered that freedom. And they won't want to obey unless they've experienced unconditional love, acceptance, and forgiveness, no matter what kind of mistakes they make. Children sometimes disobey on purpose just to test you--to see if you'll love them no matter what. When they find that you DO love them no matter what, then disobedience starts to lose its appeal, because they start to want to return the respect that they've received from you.

On a completely different note, I have to speak to the comment about teens and laying down the law, too. I used to work with teens--pretty much my entire life until I became a mom--and, IMO, no. You can't lay down the law with teens. With teens more than anyone else, you HAVE to negotiate, compromise, and give freedom and choices. Because the reality is, teens aren't children anymore. In most of human history, teens were considered adults. Although their thinking isn't fully mature, they are ready in many ways to take on adult responsibility. The more that they're allowed to take responsibility for their own choices and actions, the less they rebel. And yes, you have to have guidelines and boundaries, but I think those guidelines should be negotiated, not ordered from the top-down. And statistically speaking, if your teens are arguing and negotiating with you all the time, that's actually a good thing. It means they care enough about your opinion that they're not just ignoring what you say and lying to you about what they're doing.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
I'm a little frustrated that all the examples here seem to be those involving young children.

What about teens? When do you stop being so talkative and just lay down rules?

Yes, I do do that. Yes, I do have standards. I do expect my 17 yo to keep her personal appearance at a certain level, because we have a set of standards that we, as parents, think are appropriate.

I understand not yelling at a 2 yo who spilled water. But a 4yo who WON'T help clean up? Come on. And a 12 yo who defies you or yells or hits siblings?

When do you stop negotiating and start imposing rules? It's so nicey nice to think that all kids are going to be lovey perfect if you just "treat them with respect," which in this forum seems to mean "Stop imposing any rules at all and let them have at it..." But the reality is that kids need us to set some boundaries.

Especially in the teen years.

I do not interpret UP as meaning that you do not have any rules but rather how you implement those rules and what you do when someone breaks one. Like, say my teen took the car out when I said that she couldn't. Maybe we had somewhere to go in the morning, or she had a test the next day, or whatever, I said no & gave a reason & she did it anyway. Well, first off, yes, I would take the keys away from her. I would tell her that she betrayed my trust & if she were another adult, I would do the same thing b/c I could not trust her w/ my car. Not giving somebody something when they have purposely misused it before is a logical consequence & there is nothing wrong w/ that. That does not mean I need to give her a lecture, scream at her, smack her, send her to her room, etc etc etc. Taking the use of the car away would be directly linked to the misbehaviour and probably enough. I would let her know that I did indeed listen to her reasons for wanting the car that night & I decided that she was not allowed to use it.

I agree w/ Lisavark, having worked w/ troubled teens myself, that laying down the law does not work v well w/ them. They are trying to figure out how to become adults. It is the time to treat them more like adults, not more like children. I WANT my kids to be able to effectively negotiate w/ me and dh. I did not feel comfortable doing that w/ my parents even though I thought it was a great way to connect as a mentor/parent & mentee/child relationship. They need to feel comfortable speaking w/ a boss or teacher about something like getting a raise. If your daughter comes down the stairs wearing a tube top and a mini skirt & expects you to take her to the mall, well, you don't have to! You do keep on talking and talking and talking, though. Why do girls feel the need to dress like that? How does it make you feel to dress like that? Here is why Dad and I do NOT want you to dress like that. My mom used to get on me a lot as a teen b/c I did not like to wash my hair very often. Guess what? I still don't! But now I have my own house, so I don't have to be made to feel like I have to! Why do we dress up for funerals, weddings, graduations, etc? Kids don't just know the answers to these questions, we have to tell them.

The average 12 yr old is going to yell and defy you at times. The main point is that if you have been having an open dialogue w/ your child for their whole life, they will already understand why these approaches are not the best. If I listen to my child when she has something to say, why would she feel the need to yell at me all the time? If I make it known that, yes, we can negotiate many things, why would she feel like she has to yell to be heard or sneak around to get what she wants (all the time)?


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
And to the fellow Christian poster who brought this up, I 100% agree with making sure our kids understand the "whys" behind what we ask. Do you think that shows that you respect them (and their intelligence) enough to explain your reasonings?

I think it absolutely shows that I respect dd's intelligence when I explain things to her. She does not understand that stepping on the computer could break it _until someone tells her_. I tell her about all sorts of things every day; I'm not going to stop when it comes to discipline


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Thank you, "dogreto," for your answer.

i am finding it difficult to negotiate parenting a teen when all i read is that "kids should make their own rules and find their own consequences."
When you're a teen, you're stuck between childhood and adulthood...you don't have the rights or responsibilities of adults, but you're expected to live up to their standards.

This is where I am having a problem w/ UP.

My kids may NOT get tattoos before they are of age (or until they choose to stop living under our roof) because we know these things are really permanent, and they don't know that. SAme with multiple piercings, super-makeup, etc.

Standards matter. I don't want to raise automatons who only listen to "authority," but I also want to protect my children (who really....are stilll children) form permanent BAD choices.

love, p


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dogretro* 
I do not interpret UP as meaning that you do not have any rules but rather how you implement those rules and what you do when someone breaks one. Like, say my teen took the car out when I said that she couldn't. Maybe we had somewhere to go in the morning, or she had a test the next day, or whatever, I said no & gave a reason & she did it anyway. Well, first off, yes, I would take the keys away from her. I would tell her that she betrayed my trust & if she were another adult, I would do the same thing b/c I could not trust her w/ my car. Not giving somebody something when they have purposely misused it before is a logical consequence & there is nothing wrong w/ that. That does not mean I need to give her a lecture, scream at her, smack her, send her to her room, etc etc etc. Taking the use of the car away would be directly linked to the misbehaviour and probably enough. I would let her know that I did indeed listen to her reasons for wanting the car that night & I decided that she was not allowed to use it.

I agree w/ Lisavark, having worked w/ troubled teens myself, that laying down the law does not work v well w/ them. They are trying to figure out how to become adults. It is the time to treat them more like adults, not more like children. I WANT my kids to be able to effectively negotiate w/ me and dh. I did not feel comfortable doing that w/ my parents even though I thought it was a great way to connect as a mentor/parent & mentee/child relationship. They need to feel comfortable speaking w/ a boss or teacher about something like getting a raise. If your daughter comes down the stairs wearing a tube top and a mini skirt & expects you to take her to the mall, well, you don't have to! You do keep on talking and talking and talking, though. Why do girls feel the need to dress like that? How does it make you feel to dress like that? Here is why Dad and I do NOT want you to dress like that. My mom used to get on me a lot as a teen b/c I did not like to wash my hair very often. Guess what? I still don't! But now I have my own house, so I don't have to be made to feel like I have to! Why do we dress up for funerals, weddings, graduations, etc? Kids don't just know the answers to these questions, we have to tell them.

The average 12 yr old is going to yell and defy you at times. The main point is that if you have been having an open dialogue w/ your child for their whole life, they will already understand why these approaches are not the best. If I listen to my child when she has something to say, why would she feel the need to yell at me all the time? If I make it known that, yes, we can negotiate many things, why would she feel like she has to yell to be heard or sneak around to get what she wants (all the time)?


So you're telling me that, as a mother of two under two, you have the knowledge to KNOW what really works with teens?

REALLY?


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
So you're telling me that, as a mother of two under two, you have the knowledge to KNOW what really works with teens?

REALLY?

On the other hand as someone who hasn't tried UP from a young age, you're making a bunch of asssumptions about how teenagers will behave when raised in that type of an environment. I don't think even YOU can answer that from experience...but you asked people who practice the method how they expect it to work. Your theoretical proposal that UP will NOT work with teens based on having teens, is just as valid as anyone else's theoretical proposal that UP WILL work with teens based on ther knowledge of UP (and possible memories of being a teen). I think oppossing views are great and you brought up some great points for me to consider as I learn more about this...but I think questioning the interpretation is better than questioning the "cred" of the poster. We are all parents here and to be honest the only person that would be qualified to comment on teens and UP by your standards would be someone who has tried the method for several years with a teen...which is pretty unlikely due to the book only having come out 4 years ago.

But surely you can see how kids raised with a certain standard of discipline act TOTALLY differently in responce to things they aren't used to? I learned this the hard way. My 4 and 5 year old will stop dead at each street corner and wait for us to catch up. There is absolutely no problem with it. If I feel like the street is super busy then I can ask them to stay near, or hold hands and there is no whining or crying...they just do it. When crossing the street they automaticly hold hands. My 5 year old is actually my nephew who was raised with some instability for a couple of years and who has totally different genetic parents than my son...so their temperments are completely different, and my nephew has ADHD and speech issues. I have NEVER used physical discipline, I reserve yelling for DIRE emergencies only, and haven't used time out for two years since we realised it just didn't work that well for us. Simply explaining, repeatedly, how dangerous it is out on the street and having conversations WITH the kids about what we can do to make walking to the park safer (so we could go more often) has made them SO MUCH of a difference. They completely understand the issue, and if there was ever a situation where they were alone on the street in an emergency, I am totally secure that even my 4 year old would be able to get to the nearest gas station safely (God forbid he ever needed to...)

My 5 year old cousin (older than my 5 year old) comes to hang out sometimes and his mom is a screamer. The kids are not out of control or anything, but the minute her back is turned they try to do whatever they want no matter how dangerous. If she asks them to do something they will if they feel like it, but if its something unpleasant they will totally ignore her until she is screaming and threatening and taking stuff away. He came to visit one day and he was walking ahead of me on the sidewalk with my 4 and 5 year olds. I asked them all to stop at the corner and wait for us to catch up...he didn't. My kids yelled with alarm after him and told him he was going to get hit by a car while I ran foreward with my 18 month old and screamed at the top of my lungs to get back on the sidewalk. He calmly looked back while I screamed and as I approached the corner I shouted out that he was going home with DH if he didn't get back on the corner RIGHT NOW.

My kids covered their ears when I screamed...he hadn't even flinched. Only threatening worked, and I don't chalk that up to a "failure" in how WE parent, nor a failure in how my aunt parents. I know that having her son in the street doesn't happen on her watch. You can't just apply a completely different method of parenting to a kid when they have lived for years in a certain environment and then declare it a total failure when the kid's behavior appears to get worse.

Edited to add: I still don't know much about the actual UP method...but for us the proof has been in the pudding. We came to how we parent organically and are revising every day. If I had known from the start how much grief it would save us to simply spend a couple minutes explaining things and then expect them to act like humans we would have been doing it from the start.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 
But surely you can see how kids raised with a certain standard of discipline act TOTALLY differently in responce to things they aren't used to? I learned this the hard way. My 4 and 5 year old will stop dead at each street corner and wait for us to catch up. There is absolutely no problem with it. If I feel like the street is super busy then I can ask them to stay near, or hold hands and there is no whining or crying...they just do it. When crossing the street they automaticly hold hands. My 5 year old is actually my nephew who was raised with some instability for a couple of years and who has totally different genetic parents than my son...so their temperments are completely different, and my nephew has ADHD and speech issues. I have NEVER used physical discipline, I reserve yelling for DIRE emergencies only, and haven't used time out for two years since we realised it just didn't work that well for us. Simply explaining, repeatedly, how dangerous it is out on the street and having conversations WITH the kids about what we can do to make walking to the park safer (so we could go more often) has made them SO MUCH of a difference. They completely understand the issue, and if there was ever a situation where they were alone on the street in an emergency, I am totally secure that even my 4 year old would be able to get to the nearest gas station safely (God forbid he ever needed to...)

My 5 year old cousin (older than my 5 year old) comes to hang out sometimes and his mom is a screamer. The kids are not out of control or anything, but the minute her back is turned they try to do whatever they want no matter how dangerous. If she asks them to do something they will if they feel like it, but if its something unpleasant they will totally ignore her until she is screaming and threatening and taking stuff away. He came to visit one day and he was walking ahead of me on the sidewalk with my 4 and 5 year olds. I asked them all to stop at the corner and wait for us to catch up...he didn't. My kids yelled with alarm after him and told him he was going to get hit by a car while I ran foreward with my 18 month old and screamed at the top of my lungs to get back on the sidewalk. He calmly looked back while I screamed and as I approached the corner I shouted out that he was going home with DH if he didn't get back on the corner RIGHT NOW.

This is an EXCELLENT example of good UP parenting. I know many kids who were parented by punishment and a "because I'm your mother and I said so" attitude who would think to themselves "Running into traffic is a bad thing? I don't believe you. Or maybe I do, but I'm going to do it anyway. I might stop at the curb once I get there, but I'm going", as in the case with the Kreeblim's 5 year old cousin. It's not about respect and trust for the parent. It's about threats and "pushing limits" (in a manner of speaking). Or in other words, how much they can get away with before being punished. Now of course the kids in this example are 4 and 5 years old, but the foundation was set from a very early age.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
I'm a little frustrated that all the examples here seem to be those involving young children.

What about teens? When do you stop being so talkative and just lay down rules?

In my experience, UP (broken record) is about trust and respect FOR EACH OTHER, and non UP parents tend not to have this. And so they end up with rebellious teens who are always trying to "get their way" when mom and dad aren't looking (knowing they will "pay for it" later). Teens almost ALWAYS just want to be heard. ANY teen reality show will tell you that ('You never listen to me!!"). I know many teens who will think twice about doing something that might upset their parents, and just as many that will do it anyway.

I'm a UP parent, but I still have rules. I believe it would be irresponsible of me AS a parent, to NOT have rules. UP doesn't mean no rules. It's the difference between sending a kid to time out for breaking those rules or sitting down with them to figure why they felt they had to break it, that makes it UP or not. That's not to say that a punishment won't take place, but punishment and consequence are not always the same thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
i am finding it difficult to negotiate parenting a teen when all i read is that "kids should make their own rules and find their own consequences."
When you're a teen, you're stuck between childhood and adulthood...you don't have the rights or responsibilities of adults, but you're expected to live up to their standards.

This is where I am having a problem w/ UP.

Offering kids (teens) choices and allowing them to live with the consequences of their choices is not the same as giving them the freedom to make their own rules. I would never tell my child to "be home at 9 or you're grounded" (a threat), nor would I ground my child for being late (a punishment I don't agree with). I would discuss with them first what time they think is an appropriate time to come home, then explain why I need them home at whatever time I feel is best (taking their thoughts into consideration). And if they were late (as per the time we agreed on), it would be discussed. Sure, a consequence might follow, whether it's via a punishment from me, or just being tired the following morning. Both will affect the teenager in a negative way. It's their own fault that they're tired. They came home later than I asked, and now they're unable to get out of bed. Too bad for them!! I might ask them to get up a little earlier and maybe tell them that I need help with morning chores (ie. making breakfast) as a punishment to say that when I said "I'd like you home no later than the time specified", I meant it. And now you're upset because I won't let you sleep in? Why would I give them the luxury of sleeping in and having breakfast waiting for them, when they went against something that I not only asked them to do, but something we AGREED on??

I don't expect my children to live up to adult standards (because they're NOT adults), but they WILL be given responsibilities and treated with the respect they need to find their way into adulthood.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
So you're telling me that, as a mother of two under two, you have the knowledge to KNOW what really works with teens?

REALLY?

This was a little rude, don't you think? If this is how you talk to your kids, this is DEFINITELY NOT UP.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

So, sgmom, how do you get that kid not to "sleep in" if you don't engage in consequences or punishment? If she stays out past her time limit, how do you MAKE a teenager get out of bed?

I don't hit my kids. I can't "make" my teen get out of bed unless she wants to. I've resorted to cold water on the face once...and that was a mistake. (It did work, but it made her madder than I was...so that was a mistake on my part).

I don't feel I was being rude in asking the previous poster about their experience with THEIR OWN teens, when they have none. Helping other peoples' kids is always easier than raising your own. Making judgments and rules for OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS is always easier than implementing those rules in your own house.

UP sounds interesting, and I'm intrigued. But I'm not by any means a permissive parent...and if UP means letting my 17 yo get a tattoo because she feels like it, then no, I won't be able to sign on to that type of parenting.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
So, sgmom, how do you get that kid not to "sleep in" if you don't engage in consequences or punishment? If she stays out past her time limit, how do you MAKE a teenager get out of bed?

I don't hit my kids. I can't "make" my teen get out of bed unless she wants to. I've resorted to cold water on the face once...and that was a mistake. (It did work, but it made her madder than I was...so that was a mistake on my part).

I use playful parenting techniques a LOT. I once climbed into bed with a VERY stubborn 11 year old, and proceeded to steal the covers (pretending she wasn't there - what is this LUMP, and why are the covers "stuck" under it?). And when that didn't work (she got mad), I decided to try a "the more mad you get at me, the more I'm going to love you" approach. By the end of it all, I was practically on top of her, going on and on about how COZY she was and how I should use her as a pillow more often. She went from mad to laughing saying "FINE! I'll get up, just GET OFF OF ME!". But of course by that time I was too comfortable to get up, so I just lay on top of her while she struggled and laughed, trying to push me off (tickling me finally worked).

The next time she tried not getting out of bed, I went into her room and without saying a word, I got jammies out of her dresser and put them on (they were WAY too small and I looked like an absolute fool). Needless to say, by the time I was done struggling to pull her pajama pants up (and before I had a chance to crawl back into her bed), she was up (laughing the whole time). I have to tell you, I was pretty upset about not getting the change to climb back in!

I would NEVER, EVER throw water on a sleeping teens face. If my mother ever did that to me, I'd be plotting my revenge for weeks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
I don't feel I was being rude in asking the previous poster about their experience with THEIR OWN teens, when they have none. Helping other peoples' kids is always easier than raising your own. Making judgments and rules for OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS is always easier than implementing those rules in your own house.

The way you asked sure didn't sound very nice to me. In fact, it came across as rather condescending. And what I meant was if you talk down to your kids (and I'm not saying that you do), the way you talked down to dogretro, it's no wonder you're having a problem understanding UP.


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## dogretro (Jun 17, 2008)

Spruce, many of us commenting here have said that UP does NOT mean that there aren't standards, rules, & expectations. UP has to do w/ how we communicate those standards and uphold them. While I am not the parent of a teen, I do have a degree in child development and have worked w/ teens in a supported independent living program. I am not interested in how to "make" my teen do anything, if that is even possible. The books will tell you that adolescence is the time for helping a child navigate their way to adulthood, NOT the time to give more rules & become more strict. Becoming more strict usually backfires w/ a teen who rebels or grows to resent you (or both). I do not think that parenting has to be only "crime & punishment" *OR* "let them do as they please". There are plenty of variations in the middle & UP fits there v well.

If you are interested in learning more about how to apply UP to the life of a teen, I highly recommend visiting the unschooling section of this forum (listed under "Learning at Home"). There are many parents there who have raised their children to and through adolescence using UP. They can give you many good examples of how they conduct their parenting relationships w/ their kids. I doubt any of them would say that they just let their kids run around and do whatever they want all the time.


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

dogreto, I regularly visit the unschooling and homeschooling sections of MDC. I appreciate that you have a degree that involves child development...but, IMHO, that does not translate to having a good understanding of what is involved in day-to-day parenting.

I'm going to back out of this discussion, but thank you for being civil.

p


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

I'm still working my way through this thread, but I thought I'd introduce myself and also ask a question.









I discovered UP when my DS4 was a baby. I actually read the book during his naps, when he was asleep on my chest in the sling. It totally and completely resonated with me. I started to really understand the affect my own childhood had on me (I had a VERY authoritarian mom and dad who parented conditionally, and I've dealt with issues of needing people to like me, insecurity, not knowing how to make my own decisions, etc. my whole life) and how I would rather parent my own child.

So it's all good, right? I got DH to watch the DVD (because there's no way he would read an entire parenting book) and he's even commented on how annoying it is to hear other parents tell their kids "Good job!" But he does have his doubts sometimes, particularly since he has three much older kids from his first marriage who were parented more traditionally (though still much more respectfully than I was parented).

It's tough when issues come up that make DH doubt UP and put me in a position to defend it, when *I'm* having doubts myself and often feel like I'm making this up as I go along, despite Kohn's philosophy. Here's the problem we're currently dealing with:

My son has always been VERY attached and needy in that he has always needed our constant attention. He's essentially an only child and I'm home full-time, so I guess that's not too surprising. But he's always been very sweet and gentle...until he turned four.

Whoo boy. He started hitting and attacking us, to the point that I'd have to wrestle away from him and lock myself in the bathroom. I tried restraining him, holding him and comforting him, but that NEVER seemed to do anything but escalate things.

After a little while (a month or so later) he stopped hitting. He would start to say, "If you don't do such-and-such I'm going to HIT you!" but he wouldn't actually hit. Then when I would say that hitting is not the way to express frustration, etc., he would say, "I wasn't going to actually hit you, I just wanted it to sound bad." Occasionally he would start to say, "I'm going to h--" and then I could hear him correct himself.

But then he started hitting again. It sort of goes in spurts. It hasn't been as bad as when he first turned four (he's four years and almost five months) but he'll still hit us. Sometimes he runs away after hitting us and it's like he's trying to provoke a reaction. I've asked him why he hits, and he says "it's a secret." He won't talk about why he hit in a particular situation, even though it's clearly because he's upset/angry/frustrated. I've tried to give him things to say instead of hitting.

It's SO frustrating for us. What should we do?


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## ThoughtFullMama (Oct 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mama* 
I'm still working my way through this thread, but I thought I'd introduce myself and also ask a question.









I discovered UP when my DS4 was a baby. I actually read the book during his naps, when he was asleep on my chest in the sling. It totally and completely resonated with me. I started to really understand the affect my own childhood had on me (I had a VERY authoritarian mom and dad who parented conditionally, and I've dealt with issues of needing people to like me, insecurity, not knowing how to make my own decisions, etc. my whole life) and how I would rather parent my own child.

So it's all good, right? I got DH to watch the DVD (because there's no way he would read an entire parenting book) and he's even commented on how annoying it is to hear other parents tell their kids "Good job!" But he does have his doubts sometimes, particularly since he has three much older kids from his first marriage who were parented more traditionally (though still much more respectfully than I was parented).

It's tough when issues come up that make DH doubt UP and put me in a position to defend it, when *I'm* having doubts myself and often feel like I'm making this up as I go along, despite Kohn's philosophy. Here's the problem we're currently dealing with:

My son has always been VERY attached and needy in that he has always needed our constant attention. He's essentially an only child and I'm home full-time, so I guess that's not too surprising. But he's always been very sweet and gentle...until he turned four.

Whoo boy. He started hitting and attacking us, to the point that I'd have to wrestle away from him and lock myself in the bathroom. I tried restraining him, holding him and comforting him, but that NEVER seemed to do anything but escalate things.

After a little while (a month or so later) he stopped hitting. He would start to say, "If you don't do such-and-such I'm going to HIT you!" but he wouldn't actually hit. Then when I would say that hitting is not the way to express frustration, etc., he would say, "I wasn't going to actually hit you, I just wanted it to sound bad." Occasionally he would start to say, "I'm going to h--" and then I could hear him correct himself.

But then he started hitting again. It sort of goes in spurts. It hasn't been as bad as when he first turned four (he's four years and almost five months) but he'll still hit us. Sometimes he runs away after hitting us and it's like he's trying to provoke a reaction. I've asked him why he hits, and he says "it's a secret." He won't talk about why he hit in a particular situation, even though it's clearly because he's upset/angry/frustrated. I've tried to give him things to say instead of hitting.

It's SO frustrating for us. What should we do?

You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

Good luck, and sorry you are dealing with that


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThoughtFullMama* 
You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

Good luck, and sorry you are dealing with that









Oh man, my son's a special case...


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThoughtFullMama* 
You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

I agree. I have a few suggestions as well, but I don't want to hijack this thread.


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThoughtFullMama* 
You know, I think your post deserves it's own thread - that way you'll get more answers. I'd title it something like this - 'How to handle four year old who hits, using UP'

Here it is. Thanks!


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## ThoughtFullMama (Oct 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mama* 
Here it is. Thanks!

You're welcome!


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

sorry


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Daffodil-- Thank you, I went and looked up some of Alfie Kohn's talks on youtube where he speaks about motivations and how praising a child for sharing (for example) will make the child less likely to want to share for sharing's sake in the future-- instead he'll be waiting for the "reward" of praise. I hope I'm expressing his viewpoint correctly there.

Anyhow, I spent a good hour last night just listening to his talks on youtube. As before, I find some of the points he makes convincing, or at least very thought-provoking. All in all however, I've determined that UP just isn't for us. For the reasons I explained in my first post here. I can't agree with some of the conclusions AK makes that, to me, don't seem in any way logical and can't really be validated by significant research/personal experience/etc.

HOWEVER, I will still take the good parts I've found and think on them, and hope to incorporate some of the more reasonable (IMO) elements into our parenting style. Like I was saying, we're sort of "cafeteria parents" and I don't think it's necessarily healthy (for me and my DH) to swear allegience to any *one* fallible, man-made parenting philosophy. So, thanks for pointing out the good and I hope it will help us.







Good luck to all of you, and may God bless your efforts.


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## quelindo (May 11, 2005)

Amanpea, I haven't read through this whole thread yet so I'm not sure what parts of UP you disagree with, but I just saw that you're expecting your first baby. I want to say, very incredibley respectfully, that your views may change when your child is here. I think you mentioned somewhere up thread that you work(ed) with kids, and I still think your views may change.

I was a stepmom for nine years and a nanny for ten years when I had my son. I totally thought I knew everything there was to know about kids and how my kid would be raised. Well, I can't tell you how many times I've had to eat my words about so many different things.

This is not at all to say that you will be like me. Maybe you're a whole lot more open-minded -- it sounds like you're being very thoughtful about how you'd like your child to be raised, probably more thoughtful than I was before my son arrived. I wish you lots of luck in your mama journey. It's a wild ride!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
Daffodil-- Thank you, I went and looked up some of Alfie Kohn's talks on youtube where he speaks about motivations and how praising a child for sharing (for example) will make the child less likely to want to share for sharing's sake in the future-- instead he'll be waiting for the "reward" of praise. I hope I'm expressing his viewpoint correctly there.

Anyhow, I spent a good hour last night just listening to his talks on youtube. As before, I find some of the points he makes convincing, or at least very thought-provoking. All in all however, I've determined that UP just isn't for us. For the reasons I explained in my first post here. I can't agree with some of the conclusions AK makes that, to me, don't seem in any way logical and can't really be validated by significant research/personal experience/etc.

HOWEVER, I will still take the good parts I've found and think on them, and hope to incorporate some of the more reasonable (IMO) elements into our parenting style. Like I was saying, we're sort of "cafeteria parents" and I don't think it's necessarily healthy (for me and my DH) to swear allegience to any *one* fallible, man-made parenting philosophy. So, thanks for pointing out the good and I hope it will help us.







Good luck to all of you, and may God bless your efforts.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The issue of adolescents and sleep is an interesting one. I was reading about this in Nurtureshock recently, and there's a biological issue at play:

From: http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2007/1...ence-just.html

Quote:

Brown University's Dr. Mary Carskadon has demonstrated that during puberty, the circadian system - the biological clock - does a "phase shift" that keeps adolescents up later. In prepubescents and grownups, when it gets dark outside, our brains produce melatonin, which makes us sleepy. But adolescent brains don't release melatonin for another 90 minutes. So even if they're in bed at 10 p.m (which they aren't), they lay awake, staring at the ceiling. It's possible that this played some evolutionary role, back when teens needed to leave the tribe and explore or hunt.

Awakened at dawn by alarm clocks, teen brains are still releasing melatonin. This pressures them to fall back asleep - either in first period at school or, more dangerously, during the drive to school. Which is one of the reasons young adults are responsible for more than half of the 100,000 "fall asleep" crashes annually.
So where UP is relevant is in assuming the best motivation rather than the worst. Rather than assuming bad behavior and a kid who stays up too late and punishing based on that assumption in an attempt to change the behaivior, understanding that there's a biological issue at play and trying to find a solution with the teen that takes that issue into account. And no, I don't know the solution, as school is set up badly for teenagers (as the article discusses). I will face that issue in a couple of years.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New Mama* 
Amanpea, I haven't read through this whole thread yet so I'm not sure what parts of UP you disagree with, but I just saw that you're expecting your first baby. I want to say, very incredibley respectfully, that your views may change when your child is here. I think you mentioned somewhere up thread that you work(ed) with kids, and I still think your views may change.

You're right, a lot of my views will probably change once this little one is born. There are some things that I believe in completely, as a matter of faith and/or sound reason-- so no amount of experience will change what I believe about those things. But as a first time mom-to-be then there are other things (_so_ many things, I'm sure) I don't know _anything_ about yet so I'll be learning as I go with this baby.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amanpea* 
You're right, a lot of my views will probably change once this little one is born. There are some things that I believe in completely, as a matter of faith and/or sound reason-- so no amount of experience will change what I believe about those things. But as a first time mom-to-be then there are other things (_so_ many things, I'm sure) I don't know _anything_ about yet so I'll be learning as I go with this baby.









I worked as a nanny for 16 years before having my first child. I've always been somewhat UP with them, but it's SO easy with other people's children to just send them to their rooms and wait them out when they start to tantrum. I never did this, but there were many times when I wanted to. But with my daughter, I can't even imagine NOT tending to her needs when she gets upset about something.

People always say it's different when it's your own. In my case, I don't really find it much different at all (I parent exactly the same as I did the kids I took care of). But what IS different, is how much easier I find it to get to her level and help her understand that whatever is causing her to be angry or upset, that I'm there to help her through it. When babysitting, or caring for someone else's kids, that bond is nowhere NEAR as strong as it is with your own.

It's completely biological... But not only that, you're there 100% of the time, from birth on, and there is no other mother than you. With UP, it's about listening to their needs, and helping them through their emotions. And for me, there is really nothing in the world that's easier for me to do.

That's not to say that sometimes it doesn't have it's challenges, but for me to punish a behavior without knowing where it's coming from (and helping her through that emotion), seems COMPLETELY unnatural.

When my daughter was 7 or 8 months old, I remember having one night where she was just miserable and I had NO idea what was wrong (looking back, it was probably plain old developmental frustration). I was over tired, she just wouldn't settle (we co-sleep) I had NO idea how to help her, and I just got frustrated. So frustrated that I had to put her down (by herself) and left her alone for a few minutes while I took the dog outside for a breath of fresh air. I barely made it to the door before feeling HORRIBLE about the whole situation. We both had a good cry that night.

People say that sometimes you have to put them down and walk away (like when you feel like you're about to lose control - and I do agree with this, btw), but that night I felt like the worst mother on the planet, as she screamed her desperate pleas for me to come back.

You might surprise yourself. UP really isn't as hard as some people make it out to be. Once your baby is born and you watch him/her grow and get to know them, it should all come naturally to you. And whatever roadblocks you do run across, you take them one breath (literally) at a time.


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## FamilyParenting (Mar 10, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabutterfly* 
And my toddler is doing pretty well for a toddler, lol... but I will say I feel all bets are off in the teen years. I don't know what to expect there. I hope our relationship has set us up well for that, but who knows?

I'm new here (so, hello everyone!) and I've been reading this thread with great interest. I kept waiting for someone to mention the teen years. Thank you for that!

The "problem" with MOST of these methods, including UP, is those unexpected teen years. By unexpected I simply mean, from day to day, you never know what to expect. The surprises will come, regardless of what method you choose.

Personally, I'm not in favor of a "method." I'm in favor of http://hubpages.com/hub/CREATING-A-FORTUNE-500-FAMILY"> basic principles</a> such as http://hubpages.com/hub/Dearest-Mommy-or-Mommy-Dearest">unconditional love</a>, mutual respect, consistency, etc. Most of these methods all incorporate these principles in one way or another, but so many of them muddy the waters -- especially when a parent gets to the teen years.

While many of us do not like the word "obey," it is really just the result of honor, respect, and trust. When a child honor and respects her parents, she will "obey" because she trusts that what her parent is telling her to do / not to do is legitimate. She can -- but doesn't have to -- question it, having spent her life assured that the trust is earned.

When your 16 year old, newly licensed to drive, says, "I'll be home at midnight, after the party that has a keg of beer..." What will UP parents say? There are times when we need our children to simply obey. They haven't fully developed that part of their brains from which they can FULLY reason and rationalize to make certain decisions. It's science, not parenting. Their brains WILL develop, but not until they are adults. That's why we have to step in and set boundaries, enforce those boundaries, and keep them safe.

This (and the other) posts bring up SO many issues, and I'm aware as I write this that I'm leaving a lot dangling, so I apologize in advance.


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