# Deliberately disobeying



## Nillarilla (Nov 20, 2007)

What do you do when your toddler deliberately does something he/she is not supposed to? Or continues to do something after you have said not to?
i.e. You are in a store and you say keep your hands to yourself or don't touch and he or she repeatedly grabs something.
Or you are at home and there is something on the counter and you have already said he or she cannot have anymore and he or she gets up and gets it anyways.
To put an age context in here my child is 2yrs 10 months.


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## mommabear207 (Nov 19, 2007)

myds is 22months and does the same. i repeatly try to redirect but if anyone has any better ways i'd love to hear it!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

At that age I would find a way to distract. At 2 years 10 months, self control is not a childs strong suit.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

1. Pick him up and carry him across the room.

2. Keep him in an Ergo or shopping cart at all times when we're in a don't-touch place such as the supermarket.

3. "Look over there! I see an Elmo! [or whatever interesting thing]" (pointing to the other direction from the thing he shouldn't touch)


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## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

I try not to let myself see it as "disobeying." First off, I don't necessarily want an obediant child. Curious, strong-willed, intelligent, fun-loving? Sure! Obedience is low on my list though. I think of things like you listed as testing limits.

At home, I let her do a fair amount of limit testing. If it's dangerous, I obviously remove it. If it's just against the rules (like feet on the dining room table), I try to explain in an age appropriate way why we have that rule (for example, your shoes might have stepped in poopy outdoors and then we'd get poopy in our food! eeew! yucky poopy! and that would make our bellies hurt). And then I try to show her all the things she CAN put on the table. Her ears, her chin, her nose, etc. If it's just mean, like hitting the kitty, I will suggest she walk away / sit on her purple blankie and when she's ready to be gentle, she can show the kitty nice touches.

In public, I'm a little more conscious of others around us. I may be comfortable with her making noise at dinner at home but not in a restaurant, you know? If she's being a grabby McGrabberson in the store, I try to find things she can "help" with -- like "hey Anna, are you strong enough to carry this big box of cereal? hey Anna, do you want red apples or green apples?" And so on. Sometimes I give her paper and let her make a "list," she loves that. She's grabbing because she's curious so I try to find ways to engage her in other ways.


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## binspired (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm anxious to hear some more ideas/opinions on this one, since my 25 month old is the king of this lately - especially since his new baby sister arrive a month ago!


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## Mommal (Dec 16, 2007)

When my toddler (2 years, 9 months) deliberately disobeys and it is a matter that is important enough to require discipline rather than distraction, this is my strategy:

I get down on her level.

I hold on to her and try to look into her eyes.

I use the following fill-in-the-blank script: "Honey, let's talk. Mommy told you not to do ___ and you did it anyway. Doing ___ isn't good because ______. If you do ___ again, then I will __________" (Usually: pick you up/ pick you up and put you in the shopping cart/ take it away.)

If the disobedient behavior is repeated, I follow through with my stated plan of action, and I make sure DD knows why: "Honey, I am picking you up" (or taking that away, etc.) "because you did ___ again and I told you not to. Now you have to _______ so that you don't do ___ again."

I feel that this rather repetitive mode of communication really helps. When DD realizes I'm starting the script, she knows that she had better listen to mommy or face the familiar consequences. She has really internalized the pattern, too. Tonight in the bath I heard her lecturing her bath toys: "Cwocokwile (Crocodile), let's talk. No bite me. Not nice bite me."


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

At 2 years, 10 months, we'd never be IN a store unless the child was restrained in a shopping cart or stroller- and if it was a "quick trip' that ended up taking longer than expected and the child had trouble focusing, I'd pick him or her up while finishing the shopping.

At home, I wouldn't leave something on the counter that the child could reach that was "forbidden." Something like cookies would be out of reach AND out of sight.

At that age, it's about having realistic expectations and setting up your life around the child's needs and abilities.


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## pghgranola (Jun 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
At that age, it's about having realistic expectations and setting up your life around the child's needs and abilities.

yes, yes, yes.










personally, i like the challenge of finding a distraction/playful alternative to an "uncool issue."


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## jillian+1 (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommal* 
Tonight in the bath I heard her lecturing her bath toys: "Cwocokwile (Crocodile), let's talk. No bite me. Not nice bite me."

OH MY LORD that's adorable.

It's so great, too, that she has learned some tools she can use to confront peers that are treating her poorly.

but, mainly, adorable!!


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## nighten (Oct 18, 2005)

I tell her firmly that I already asked her not to do XYZ, or that she knows not to do XYZ, and why -- not because of my personal opinion on the action, but due to the actual consequence.

So for instance:

We never throw in anger. That can hurt someone, or break something. We don't like being hurt. We want our toys to last. We never throw in anger.

Then I distract/redirect:

If you're angry, you may stomp or jump. I understand you're angry. When you're ready, let me know and we can talk about why you're angry.

And/or:

We can throw a ball for fun, outside when you're not feeling angry. Until then, feel free to stomp or jump. But we never throw in anger.

---

When it's a purposefully disobedient thing, it is 99% of the time because I'm not paying attention to her. She does it to get my attention. And it works. So I try to keep that in mind while still responding to the fact that she's purposefully chosen to do what I've just said not to do.

Removing her from being able to repeat the action is first thing -- so throwing a wet washcloth at me, out of the tub, while I'm at the sink brushing my teeth, for instance, results in:

NO MA'AM. That was not nice. We never throw things out of the tub at someone. It makes a mess and the water hurts the floor (old house). Out of the tub we go. Bye-bye tub!

And out of the tub she goes. The hard part is remembering why she's done it (and she usually laughs -- which is maddening, but understandable) so in the future I can kind of keep an eye out for it. And do my part to help prevent it or catch it early, before it turns into a full-on defiance act. It usually happens more on days when I've been distracted (hooray pregnancy!) and cranky to begin with.

---

When it's a permission type thing and we're outside the home, I physically remove her, all the while reminding her of what I've already said, how her actions will not change what I've said, and why it is that XYZ is not acceptable behavior. Then I add on what IS acceptable behavior as an alternative, but not in a bribery sense.

But usually in those situations it's less about her doing something purposefully disobedient, and more about her not wanting to leave a fun place, and having a tantrum because of it. So that's less about disobedience and more about learning how to express difficult emotions (anger/frustration) in an acceptable and healthy way. And about me being consistent so I'm not desperately rewarding a tantrum just to get my child to behave in public.







Redirection and quiet, firm, consistent (repetitive) explanation here helps:

I know you want to stay and play, but Mama already said we have to go. We've said bye-bye to the slide and the swings and the playground and now we need to go find a pretty leaf to take home to Papa. <insert me picking her up because she's crying/yelling/unhappy> and I continue repeating what I've said, adding: I know you're upset and I'm sorry you're upset, but acting out will not change what I've already said. I'm sorry you're angry/frustrated/sad, and I understand you crying and that's okay, but being upset does not make it okay to act out rudely (meaning kicking or screaming).

Would you like to find a red leaf or a brown leaf for Papa?

(Redirecting helps a lot still, at this age.)


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Here are my thoughts on saying No to toddlers. I wrote that when I'd only raised one; my second child is now 18 months old. The same principles still apply, but she has done more obvious limit-testing than her brother did at this age. A good example is putting her foot on the table while eating. She often says, "No!" when she does this--especially if she's been doing it for a bit and we haven't noticed yet--so clearly she understands that when you do this, people say, "No!" We think that she also understands that she is not supposed to do it. That means that she is "deliberately disobeying"--BUT it is important that we not get really mad about that and let it ruin our dinner, change our behavior toward her all evening, lead us to worry about whether she'll lead a life of crime, etc. It is a pretty normal thing for young children to do. They need a lot of reinforcement to understand that rules are consistent.

Therefore, our first response is to say in a pleasant but firm tone, "Feet go UNDER the table," while moving her foot under the table and then pushing her chair in so that there is less space to bring her foot up. Then we get on with the meal.

Often she will push her foot against the underside of the table so that her chair scoots back and she can put her foot on the table again. Then we say, "No feet on the table. Stay away from the table until you are ready to keep your feet down," while moving her chair away so that she cannot reach the table with her foot. This coincidentally means she cannot reach her food with her hands, so this is a pause in her meal, but it's not a big punishment--she's right there (belted into a booster seat) and still able to participate in conversation. Usually, she puts her foot up when she's sort of bored with eating anyway, so the pause does not bother her much.

If she gestures that she wants to come back to the table, we say, "You want a second chance to sit at the table. Feet go UNDER the table," while moving her back into place. Often, she will eat some more, with her feet down and no other defiant behavior.

If she puts her foot on the table again, we repeat the first step, but only once. After that, it's, "I see you're all done eating," and we wipe her hands and face and take her out of her seat.

Notice that in this approach there's no explanation of WHY we don't put our feet on the table. This is because we feel that with our first child, we did too much explaining, and he quickly (definitely by 2 years 10 months, the age of the original poster's child when this thread was started) got into arguing with the explanation. He's almost 11 now, and it still works better to state the rule clearly and firmly and move on to redirection and/or consequence, offering an explanation only if he asks for one, and when we do explain then quickly returning to our goal of changing his behavior rather than having an endless argument about whether or not the behavior might be okay. There are two examples above that I think are over-explaining, and I'm going to spell out why, NOT because I think either parent above is taking such a terrible approach, but because I can see how both can backfire and I'm hoping to help parents who are just starting to work with a toddler to be conscious of these possible pitfalls...


> If it's just against the rules (like feet on the dining room table), I try to explain in an age appropriate way why we have that rule (for example, your shoes might have stepped in poopy outdoors and then we'd get poopy in our food! eeew! yucky poopy! and that would make our bellies hurt). And then I try to show her all the things she CAN put on the table. Her ears, her chin, her nose, etc.


Child may argue that she did NOT step in poopy. Child may get the idea that she'll be able to put her foot on the table if she takes off her shoe--now she's handling her shoe while eating, getting her hands dirty; now you'll have future battles when she's not wearing shoes, when she's sure her feet are clean because she just took a bath, etc., and you'll have to come up with additional explanations for the rule. Stick to the rule: We don't put feet on the dining table. (Also, it may be unwise to set an example that talking about poopy at the dining table is acceptable.)

Talking about what she CAN put on the table might be a reasonable redirection tactic, depending on the child. Both of mine tend to take that sort of thing as an invitation to be really creative, trying to put every object in reach on the table to test which are and are not acceptable, which is an enormous distraction from my goal of eating at a clean table with reasonably well-behaved people.



> I use the following fill-in-the-blank script: "Honey, let's talk. Mommy told you not to do ___ and you did it anyway. Doing ___ isn't good because ______. If you do ___ again, then I will __________"


I use that second sentence all the time, in situations like the original post's: "I said no more cookies, but you got another one." It is helpful to spell out what the child did wrong, especially if you weren't right there when it happened so you're talking about it a little later. I also think the first sentence in this script is fine because it sets up a cue that the child will learn means, "Listen: I'm about to tell you how to modify your behavior." However, this script does not tell the child what TO do; it tells her why not to do what she did, suggests the possibility that she do it again, and warns her of a consequence. I feel it's more effective to use fewer words and focus on your goal:
"Feet go UNDER the table."
instead of,
"Putting your feet on the table isn't good because feet can be dirty and it's bad manners. If you put your foot on the table again, then I will move your chair away, and you won't be able to reach your food."


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