# Using a "money" system in a classroom?



## SomerG (Jun 29, 2005)

I've been lurking here off and on for a while. My son is only 6 mo., so I have a little while to go. However, I am a teacher, and so this topic is very interesting to me. I think I fall toward the more moderate side of GD, but find the debate fascinating. I'm curious to hear what other people's take is on something that I did in my classroom. I taught in a small school grades 4-8 (all subjects, 10-15 students).

We had fake money that they would earn for doing school "jobs" such as vacuuming, dusting, librarian, etc. (they had to fill out applications for each job, list references, and qualifications, etc.) Then they paid tax and rent with their "money." They had a ledger to keep track of the money they made and spent. We had a store that they could spend their money on at the end of the week. The store included small items like pencils, t-shirts, etc. as well as "coupons" for special privileges such as extra computer time, or having candy and gum during class, etc. Now here is the part I wonder about. As a class we came up with guidelines for everyone to follow (me included), and then attached a "fine" if someone did not follow that guideline (such as name-calling or borrowing without asking ,etc.).

The students really enjoyed this whole system, and I feel like it helped them learn about the real adult world by earning money, keeping records, deciding what to spend, etc. I didn't really see it as a "reward & punishment" system. However, the more I read, the more I wonder. Does the fact that the students themselves decided on the "fines" make a difference?

I'm sure there are differing opinions out there, but I really am curious to hear what people think before I decide about whether/how I might use this in the future.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

"Response Cost" is the behavioral term for giving back something you have already earned, and its considered punishment. If you want to avoid using punishment, you should get rid of it. Even if the kids decide what behaviors will be fined, its still punishment.

In my experience with a token economy that uses response cost, the kids seem to move into two camps. One, the larger group, is good at earning tokens and good at avoiding the fines. A second group seems to run themselves into debt with the fines exceeding the amount earned. These kids seem to have poor images of themselves, seeing themselves as failures and losers and not like the other kids. A system which uses any kind of punishment, like response cost, allows those kids to continue to reinforce their negative self-image. Kids get stuck in that poor self-image, and can't get out by themselves. It seems that letting go of that poor self-image is scarier than the constant negative consequences. The only way to effectively help those kids, in my opinion, is to make it impossible for them to find ways to reinforce their image of themselves. In other words, make it impossible to fail, use no punishment at all, and make it so that they are constantly "falling into" success, in spite of their determination to see themselves as bad kids.


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## SomerG (Jun 29, 2005)

I see your point about students being stuck with a negative self-image, and I definately see how the token system can be harmful. I didn't see this happening in my classroom, but we had a small group and did a lot of cooperative, team-building activities, class meetings, talking things out, etc. The money system was used primarily to teach about money and responsibility. I figured that we have laws and fines in real life, so that should be a part of the whole thing. But maybe not. Do you think having the students make up rules or guidelines for the classroom is a negative thing? I suppose simply the existence of those rules is setting some kids up for failure. But without any expectations, it seems that it could easily turn into chaos.


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

With the exception of the 'fine' part, it sounds like a *fabulous* exercise, teaching some really important life skills in a fun way. I dig it. Your students are probably learning some things that I (and lots of other adults) don't quite have the hang of yet...







I wonder if there is some way to incorporate charitable giving in there somewhere... ?

The fine thing... tricky. True, there are laws and punishments in real life. But, how many of us have actually paid a fine for something?? Maybe a parking ticket or two, a library fine (ok, lots of library fines







2). But, I'm guessing that most of us aren't losing money for the kinds of social misdeeds your students are... We lose respect, friends, the goodwill of our neighbors. We feel guilt and pain when we hurt other people's feelings. And we have to be humble and find ways to make amends... Maybe you could talk about how stuff like name-calling hurts people and the community, and discuss ways to give back to the community and make amends when it happens? It's outside the financial aspect of it all, but still about life skills. Way more complicated than 'you called Sam a jerk, hand over $10', but that's real life, no?

If you want to incorporate fines, maybe a more 'real world' application would make more sense, like... a 'late fee' for not paying your rent or taxes on time? Or, heck, you said you had a librarian - maybe some of those overdue fines that some of us pay (







).


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SomerG*
Do you think having the students make up rules or guidelines for the classroom is a negative thing?

No, I think this is a positive thing, having them participate in defining guidelines for the classroom. It would make them think about things from a different perspective, instead of having the adults determine what's right and wrong.

But instead of asking them to define what is NOT going to be allowed, maybe you could have them focus on what special things they think are worth earning extra tokens/money for. Instead of focusing on the negative, you could try to get them to define the positive (e.g. replace a fine for borrowing without asking with earning extras for asking before borrowing). Well, that is probably a bad example because then you might have a lot of "asking to borrow" going on without actually needing the item in order to earn tokens.

I wonder if instead of fines it would be possible to set up some sort of system by which the students could share their tokens with other students who demonstrated exceptional behavior (like, give them some individual control over what is reinforced). Maybe at the end of the day, have a group discussion about what exceptional behaviors they noticed during the day (e.g. "I saw Sally helping Mike with his math; that was really cool"). And then the group could decide how much, or how, to acknowledge that exceptional behavior that day. This could get students focused on positive behaviors rather than looking for negative behaviors to fine.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SomerG*
But without any expectations, it seems that it could easily turn into chaos.

You would still have expectations, you just wouldn't use response cost/punishment to address undesireable behavior.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Boongirl, I just wanted to say that I carefully read through your posts here and was really impressed. I learned some good stuff and got a clearer perspective on how classrooms work with good teachers. My own experience is limited to children with special needs and RAD kids, so I defer to your judgement about what works in a healthy classroom.


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## SomerG (Jun 29, 2005)

I appreciate the discussion here. It really has gotten me thinking. I think my classroom situation was unique. I had several grades together with many of the same kids each year, so we got to know each other quite well. I started the money system expecting it to be more of a discipline tool then it actually ended up being. By my 2nd-3rd year (I was there 3 years and am staying home now with ds), it was focused much more on simply the responsiblity, record-keeping of money, etc. I had very close relationships with my students, and tended to deal with negative behavior through discussion, etc. Overall, I guess I don't give the token/money system the credit for a happy classroom community, which we increasingly had.

I did try to focus it on the positive in that students could "tell" on other students who had done something kind or thoughtful, etc. and then give them a dollar from my stash. This created a happier atmosphere, and students seemed to look for the good in each other. When I fine was due for whatever reason, they usually would just go turn it in themselves and nothing more was said in regards to that. Then we would deal with the real issue. I'm planning to read Kohn's book, because I have heard a lot about it and find the ideas interesting.

I see tara's point about making fines for actual "real world" fines. Our rules in the classroom were "Respect Others, Respect Teachers, Respect Yourself. The fines tended to be more specific, and did help deal with the little management things, but they didn't really deal with the big stuff all that well, and I think we would have just as well off without them when it came to that.

Thanks for your insights boongirl. It is helpful to hear from others who have been there and have the classroom experience. I also do not think I would use this system with my own children. It is so nice to be able to do things the way you want to from the very beginning!

BellinghamCrunchie, I have recently been reading some about RAD, as my mil is adopting an 11 year old with a difficult past and they suspect she has RAD. I'd be curious to hear what you have found to be most successful with children in this situation. I guess that's another post, though!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I think it sounds really interesting to me. I think in the classroom setting you don't have the personal focus that parenting does and you have to use some consequences since many kids come from homes that they are taught to only respond to that. (My dh is a teacher). What I like about the system is that it is very 'real world'. It operates exactly like the adult world in many ways and although there are things I disagree with about our adult world but that doesn't mean I can raise my kid as though she won't have to live in it and be able to function. I think that even the fines are age-oriented, as in those are the things that are important to kids. As adults we have set up a society that imposes fines on things we corporately have deemed fine worthy. The kids picked out things that were what they felt should be minimized in their society. I think the little world of diplomacy is really cool and I love to see kids participate in it. What I like best about it is that the kids decided on it - not imposed on them by adults but they had a say.


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