# Spin Off: Would you force your kids to finish highschool?



## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

There are a lot of interesting opinions on the college question and I'm curious (especially for those who are not planning on even encouraging their kids to go to college), would you force your dc to finish highschool if he/she decided he/she wanted to drop out at say age 16?

would you still support them financially? Force them to work? etc.

:







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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

They don't have to finish high school but they will get a GED, at least.


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## NJ*Doula (Apr 14, 2006)

As a high school dropout myself, no I wouldn't. If there were very good reasons for dropping out (as mine definitely were) I would support his choice. _But_ I'd expect him to get a GED, and help him make his way to college when he was ready. I do think college is important, not just getting a degree, and I'd want him to go eventually if possible.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I can't see any way in which I could "force" a child to finish school. If a kid hates it enough to drop out, they're not going to get any better education by being bribed, punished or whatever into going back.

I'd probably have the same rules my mom had - the kids can live at home for free as long as they're getting an education. If they drop out, they need to find a job and pay rent.

ETA: The _only_ reason I didn't drop out about half way through 11th grade was because I believed that it would have been an admission of defeat, and that every person who ever contributed to making school a hostile environment would have "won". Looking back, it was pretty stupid thinking, but it did get me a diploma.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

yes, I would 'force' them.

There is no reason not to get a HS equivalency. My youngest sister hates HS and now does online school. They can get GEDs, go to vocational school. There are alternative to traditional HS, pick one.

College... hum, I would like them to have the option. If they really don't want to they need to be productive. Get a job join something, peace corps, roving dance troop, something!


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Yeah, I would do anything and everything I could to force my kid to finish high school.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

If they didn't like traditional school, then that's fine...but we'd have to find some other way. Either through an accredited online homeschooling program, an alternative school, or they could test early for the GED.

Whether or not I'd support them financially is a moot point. It's a legal obligation, no matter how I might feel, until they're 18.

I would be disinclined to support a lifestyle after 18 that predominantly consistend of farting around playing computer games.

I almost didn't finish high school because I wanted to begin taking college courses. We compromised, I have a diploma and when I entered college full time by that point I had 2 years of college transfer credit under my belt. I wouldn't have a problem with my kids doing that, and there's a plethora of early entrance programs where we live (unlike during my time).

I really couldn't care less about the high school experience. My main concern would be to ensure that my child had their options open in the future. Since some teens might not be able to see that clearly, it would be my role as a parent to direct them until they can see it, even though they'd probably be pissed and wouldn't like me very much.

I would not assume that I could 'force' anyone to do anything though.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

I would never force a child to finish the particular program offered by the high school that so happened to be closest to our house.

I would however, help the child to find and finish some type of program that would afford them a reasonable educational foundation. Homeschooling is fine. Correspondence or online would be okay. Changing high schools, going to a private school or to an alternative high school would be acceptable too.

I'd want to figure out what issue they had with high school, and then to either solve the problem at their high school, or find an option that would somehow circumvent the problem they were having.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
If they didn't like traditional school, then that's fine...but we'd have to find some other way. Either through an accredited online homeschooling program, an alternative school, or they could test early for the GED.
*
Whether or not I'd support them financially is a moot point. It's a legal obligation, no matter how I might feel, until they're 18.
*
I would be disinclined to support a lifestyle after 18 that predominantly consistend of farting around playing computer games.

I almost didn't finish high school because I wanted to begin taking college courses. We compromised, I have a diploma and when I entered college full time by that point I had 2 years of college transfer credit under my belt. I wouldn't have a problem with my kids doing that, and there's a plethora of early entrance programs where we live (unlike during my time).

I really couldn't care less about the high school experience. My main concern would be to ensure that my child had their options open in the future. Since some teens might not be able to see that clearly, it would be my role as a parent to direct them until they can see it, even though they'd probably be pissed and wouldn't like me very much.

I would not assume that I could 'force' anyone to do anything though.

Not true. At age 16 someone can "legally" drop out. At least that is the case in Vermont (is it a state wide law?)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
*I really couldn't care less about the high school experience.* My main concern would be to ensure that my child had their options open in the future. Since some teens might not be able to see that clearly, it would be my role as a parent to direct them until they can see it, even though they'd probably be pissed and wouldn't like me very much.

Could you clarify what you mean by the part I bolded?

Looking back, I still don't see that high school gave me many options. I took a year of vocational training after grad (in a program that didn't require a diploma) so that I could actually get a job.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollytheteacher* 
Not true. At age 16 someone can "legally" drop out. At least that is the case in Vermont (is it a state wide law?)

What does dropping out of high school have to do with financially supporting them?

You still can't get a full time job legally at 16 in most states. And unless they coupled it with some sort of emancipation, it really doesn't matter if they're in school or not, I am responsible for providing for them.

And different states have different compulsory schooling laws.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Could you clarify what you mean by the part I bolded?


Personally, high school was a total waste of time for me. So I don't think that it's an essential "experience" for kids to have. If they can get the required piece of paper in order to either enter college or start apprenticing, I don't think there's anything magic about spending 4 years in high school and walking across the stage in a cap and gown.

if people LIKE it, then that's cool. But is it necessary in life? I don't think so.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh, okay. I took it really differently.

I agree completely with that, at least. If my kids want to finish some other way, I'm good with that. I wish more options had been available when I went through, because the "high school experience" was pretty much pure hell from my perspective...better than losing my son or having a c-section, but about on a par with the last few years with my ex.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Tigerchild said:


> What does dropping out of high school have to do with financially supporting them?
> 
> You still can't get a full time job legally at 16 in most states. And unless they coupled it with some sort of emancipation, it really doesn't matter if they're in school or not, I am responsible for providing for them.
> 
> ...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Probably not. I would like her to, or at least get a GED. But I can't see myself as pushing it.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

No but I would strongly recommend they do as it will give them more options. I know when I was at school I was having a hard time being bullied, having no friends and struggling with school work and I know that I gave up trying. I wanted to leave school but my mum made me stay and there was little point to me staying and I could have been working.

Here in Australia you can't leave school until the age of 15 but they are trying to raise it to 17.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

I would strongly encourage it but you can't force them to. I would share my own life experience with them but sometimes people just have to face struggles before they learn.

I would prefer them stay home with me at that young of an age rather than be somewhere else so yes, I would still allow them to live with me....boundaries would pertain to the circumstances at hand.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollytheteacher* 

Right, but what if they didn't want to get a job? I guess my question in the financial support part was just, say one day your 16 year old says, "I want to quit highschool so i can sit at home and eat ding dongs" type thing.

Well, not too much I can do about that, pragmatically, except for to not buy dingdongs, and to make sure they know that at 18 they get first and last month's rent for an apartment if they aren't in a trade program, college, or getting started on a full time job.

Are you going to chuck a 16 year old, who can't even legally rent an apartment or work full time, into the street because they refuse to go to high school? It might be tempting, but there's not too many parents who will do that, I would argue that frankly it's rather immoral, as well as probably illegal (even though I doubt that you'd be prosecuted for it unless you were part of a vulnerable group.)

I'd answer my teen, "Well, that sounds like it'd be pretty fun, if it happened like that." And probably get rid of console games and the computer. We don't have cable, our kids won't have their own cars unless they buy them and pay the insurance on them. And I'll probably still be a housewife then, so really they'll get to sit on their butt reading or watching local network TV all day, no visitors except on weekends. Lots of things sound really fun to do, until you have to do them for a month. I'm all for learning by experience.

My kid *saying* that would not concern me. It seems like a very typical desire/verbalization to me. *I* would love to sit around eating dingdongs all day every once in awhile. I get lazy, I'm rather lazy by nature myself.

But for most kids who want to quit high school, there's often more valid reasons and complex issues than wanting to sit around and eat bonbons. I think that it's only fair to hear them out.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, we plan to homeschool, so it'd be a different situation to most. I wouldn't let my children sit around at home all day mooching... I guess if they weren't interested in higher education I'd recommend they get a job. I dunno. Not something I worry about yet, she's ten months old.


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## bwylde (Feb 19, 2004)

Unschooling here so I'm not concerned. I browsed through the teenage liberation handbook in my research and agree with a lot of what I read. If my kids are anything like me (and DS is), school is a waste of time. By high school I was so jaded by all the crap, not being able to work at my excelled pace, by having to keep a turtle pace with the rest of the class and not getting any help with the one subject I did have trouble in, not being taken seriously when I complained about being bullied (and in turn became one myself) and so on. But kept going just for that piece of paper and I ended up not pursuing education after that since I could not imagine enduring any more formal education. I skipped a lot of school and contemplated dropping out, but again, held on so I could graduate. In my spare time, since I worked essentially full time hours when I wasn't in school, I self educated and learned a lot more than I did in school (and I was an honors student, although you wouldn't know it now with all the memory problems I have now, lol!). I would not want my kids to go through what I did. If they want to go to school, fine, that's different, but I would never force.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

I dropped out of high school and got my GED. If my kids don't want to finish high school, I won't force them. I will encourage them to get a GED, but I'm not going to force them to do that either.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

High school teacher here. I often tell my colleagues that my experience as a high school teacher makes me want to homeschool my own kids. So, there ya go.

Was high school hell for me? No, because I did theater and choir and color guard, and had a lot of friends. Intellectually, though? Um, no. I was bored out of my mind in school until my senior year when I got to take some AP classes. (And yes, bored out of my mind included honors classes and the like.) I've often thought of high school as a prison sentence: you do your time, and then you get to get out. Obviously, as an educator, I work hard to see that it's not like that in my own classroom, but I know I'm still banging my head against an institutional brick wall.

But, that being said, I believe in the opportunities afforded by that stupid piece of paper are really important. My dad raised me with the edict: "The most important thing in life is to make sure you have choices." Graduating from high school gives you more choices than not graduating does. I'm totally open to other options: GED (provided it leads to college), homeschooling, online programs, etc., but my child will grow up understanding, as I did, that dropping out is not an option.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

If it were at all possible to force them, yes I would. Without a doubt. I would apply any pressure at my disposal.


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't think it's possible to force someone to finish high school.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I absolutely would do everything in my power to make my kids finish high school.


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I absolutely would do everything in my power to make my kids finish high school.


A couple people have made comments like this and I just don't know what it means? How? Are you going to hold their pen to the paper and physically force them to write. I'm not being disagreeable or argumentative. But, I think it's my job to empower my children and help them get the best education for themselves. If they really hate high school I don't think it's possible to force them - and what would be the benefit. So they can have a report card full of D's and a diploma? I'm sure that does a lot for a kid's self-esteem.

My husband and I are actually dealing with this situation with his younger brother. He will be coming to live with us soon because high school has failed him - that's how I see it. He's a good kid with flaws like all of us and has struggled with school. We're taking him in so that we can help him...hopefully earn a diploma, maybe just a GED, but either way we want him to succeed at something, feel good about himself, and be able to make good choices for himself as an adult.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

I have a feeling that at that age, I will not be able to "force" my kids to do anything. I would however highly, highly encourage them to finish HS or get a GED. I would also institute "rules" if they choose not to complete HS. This would involve paying rent to us if they are living at home and not supporting them financially.

ETA - I see that some folks have mentioned a legal obligation to continue supporting their pre-18 yo kids. I guess this would mean that I would provide the bare minimum of financial support including housing and food and that's it. If they choose not to finish highschool or some comparable program, they need to be prepared to be responsible for their own lives and not rely on mom and dad. We of course would provide love, support, security but would not pay for any extras for them.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm likely to be homeschooling DD2 through the end of high school. We've vaccilated between "unschooling" and "somewhat structured" at various times.

Unschooling high school basically would consist of spending time with my child and gently encouraging her to engage in some meaningful activities. Then it's up to me to turn what she's done into "educationalese" and send the paperwork into the school district.

So, it's very much within *MY* power to do the required paperwork and officially have my child complete high school.


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower01* 
A couple people have made comments like this and I just don't know what it means? How? Are you going to hold their pen to the paper and physically force them to write. I'm not being disagreeable or argumentative. But, I think it's my job to empower my children and help them get the best education for themselves. If they really hate high school I don't think it's possible to force them - and what would be the benefit. So they can have a report card full of D's and a diploma? I'm sure that does a lot for a kid's self-esteem.

My husband and I are actually dealing with this situation with his younger brother. He will be coming to live with us soon because high school has failed him - that's how I see it. He's a good kid with flaws like all of us and has struggled with school. We're taking him in so that we can help him...hopefully earn a diploma, maybe just a GED, but either way we want him to succeed at something, feel good about himself, and be able to make good choices for himself as an adult.

NAK

I made a comment like that. When my kid is 16 it's very much in my power to take away his car, his computer, allowance, cell phone and ground him until he's back in school. I will be a sahm until the kids are in college, so I have all the time in the world to watch his actions day in and day out and make him miserable being out of school. Sound harsh? Yes. But that is what is in my power to do if my kid drops out.

I'm sure many will think I'm a horrible mom, but dh's brother and step brother both didn't graduate on time. One was a 5 year senior who still doesn't do anything with his life and the other is a drop out living with his mom, who is paying all the bills for his children and him.

I'm not just going to sit back and let my kid ruin his life. It's called tough love, and while I want to be gentle sometime's it's needed.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Dropping out and then hanging out at home isn't an option. It's either school or work.

If school really wasn't working for my dd, then I'd allow her to drop out, BUT get a GED, then I'd hope she'd take some night classes while she worked a full time job.

BUT, in my perfect world, she will stay in school, do well, have friends, never drink or do drugs, never have sex, and keep her room clean. (the last one is already been given up on)


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

My kids will have no choice but to finish high school. That will be expected of them so they will do it. I mean you can't do anything without a diploma or GED these days and soon without a little college education. I personally loved high school, the interaction and the teachers and even some of the classes.

Also knowing that my kids will be African American it won't be in their best interest not to finish high school because the odds are already stacked against them. Education is important within my community because so many fall by the wayside. My brother dropped out in the 11th grade and has been in jail twice and is trying so hard to get his GED (reading disabilities frustrated him throughout school). Even though I plan to homeschool until at least 6th grade they will be expected to graduate from high school


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

I would do everything in my power to encourage my son to finish highschool, whether that is actually going to HS or online. Another poster mentioned "choices" and having that certificate definitely opens up a lot of doors. DH's brother struggled in HS due to learning difficulties but he plugged through. Because he graduated he was able to go to the college of his choice and take a degree that really interested him. After about 10 years he is still working in the industry. IMO education is important in opening up choices of vocations and enriching your overall life experience.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I would be very flexible about facilitating their high school experience (in school, changing schools, homeschool, online, GED, etc), but I expect them to finish high school.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

This is an interesting discussion for me to read through because I did drop out of HS at the beginning of my senior year. Long story short, I wanted to grow up fast and got into a bad scene.

Less than 6 months after dropping out, I was married and pregnant with my first child (was 18). Let's just say that a few years after dropping out I realized it was not the best decision that I could have made and 5-6 years of working 2-3 jobs as a single Mama (marriage lasted half a second) made me want to go back to school. I eventually went on to get my bachelor and masters degrees and I actually work with at risk kids now and don't hesitate to share my story.

Personally I have mixed feelings, on the one hand had my parents put their foot down, my early adult years may have been a tad more fun. That said, had I not made those choices I wouldn't have my now 17 yo son most likely or be the person I am now.

In my case, dropping out and struggling gave me a set of life skills that had I stayed in school I never may have gotten but its not been a fun journey. I do agree that there are all sorts of alternatives to traditional HS so hopefully a parent can find the mix.

Thankfully this is not a place I am in since my son who is a HS junior has no plans to drop out and plans to go to college. He knows that while both his father and I have had success working outside the box, its not been an easy journey at all.

Shay


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

I got up,left the house and went to school every day.I didn't stay there though.NOBODY could do anything to force me to stay.Dropping out is always an option no matter what parents say.

My father(divorced from my mother but the person I lived with more at the time) chose the "make me miserable" approach.Didn't work.He gave up and never addressed the actual problems that were causing me to fail in school.After my father gave up,my mother was able to turn things around for me by showing me understanding and patience.She didn't try to force me to do anything because she knew it was useless.

I started off high school failing 2 classes because of sexual harassment.One teacher failed me because I wouldn't sit quiet while he grabbed my ass or "tickled" me and I failed another class because I wouldn't look at a teacher's "stuff" and left the class when he was showing it off.My mother never knew any of that but she knew there was something wrong and making me miserable was not going to fix the problem.

Generally,I don't think kids drop out because they're just lazy.


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

I dropped out of HS when I was 16, went to alternative school, dropped out of that and got my GED when I was 17. I went on to college and got a degree. I would never force my kids to do anything but I would strongly encourage them to finish HS and go on to college. I regret dropping out of HS, I missed out on everything that normal HS people get to do and I don't want my kids to regret their decision either.

My dh and I do have college savings for our girls but if they don't use it for college, they get the $ when they turn 21.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie7* 
I regret dropping out of HS, I missed out on everything that normal HS people get to do and I don't want my kids to regret their decision either.


I feel the same way, looking back I do wish I had stayed and been able to do all the stuff that at the time seemed silly. While I am happy that I went to college and further, sometimes I do feel like I missed something basic by not graduating from HS.


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rere* 
I got up,left the house and went to school every day.I didn't stay there though.NOBODY could do anything to force me to stay.Dropping out is always an option no matter what parents say.

My father(divorced from my mother but the person I lived with more at the time) chose the "make me miserable" approach.Didn't work.He gave up and never addressed the actual problems that were causing me to fail in school.After my father gave up,my mother was able to turn things around for me by showing me understanding and patience.She didn't try to force me to do anything because she knew it was useless.

I started off high school failing 2 classes because of sexual harassment.One teacher failed me because I wouldn't sit quiet while he grabbed my ass or "tickled" me and I failed another class because I wouldn't look at a teacher's "stuff" and left the class when he was showing it off.My mother never knew any of that but she knew there was something wrong and making me miserable was not going to fix the problem.

Generally,I don't think kids drop out because they're just lazy.

These are the kinds of things I think most people just don't consider. A lot of teenagers ARE lazy - but there could be an underlying reason for that too. Removing everything that gives pleasure and joy to your teenager could force them to complete high school, or it could make them more depressed and angry. I was overall a very good student, but there were classes I struggled with and it was because I was miserable at home and I didn't have the confidence to ask for help. My BIL has terrible grades, signs up for classes and then never finishes them. I'm sure his teachers all think he's just lazy. But, I promise there's way more to it than that. And when he comes to stay with us we're going to help him work towards his goals - hopefully that's completing high school, but we're not going to lock him in his room and take away all his privileges to get him there.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't know that it would be possible to "force" them to finish, but I would *strongly* encourage it, and there would be severe consequences if they chose to quit school for some reason.

It never even occurred to me or my friends that not finishing was any sort of option -- I hope the same is true for my kids.

Of my 8 cousins, only two have actually finished high school the traditional way (in addition to my brother and I). Another 2 have gotten their GEDs, and the rest are just drop-outs. Their "reasons" are totally ridiculous BS. If I can help it at all, that won't be my kid.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I don't think I could 'force' anyone to do anything.

High school would be non-negotiable though if they wanted to live at home.

They could also take college courses, or work or take an apprenticeship.

But barring illness (physical or mental) they'd have to be doing something.


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## dearmama22 (Oct 20, 2008)

YES!!

I have an 18 year old brother who is struggling to finish high school right now. He is failing most of his classes and will be lucky if he graduates. My dad is trying EVERYTHING he can to help him. Tries to ground him ( doesn't work, he's 18!) talks to teachers, tries to help him with HW, everything but it still isn't working.

SO my point is that it gets to a point where a parent can do everything they can, but bottom line is that it comes down to the kid. There is only so much a parent can do.

BUt I would absolutly " force" my child to go to high school, that's a min. education in my opinon!


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollytheteacher* 
There are a lot of interesting opinions on the college question and I'm curious (especially for those who are not planning on even encouraging their kids to go to college), would you force your dc to finish highschool if he/she decided he/she wanted to drop out at say age 16?

would you still support them financially? Force them to work? etc.

:







:

I had enough credits to legally graduate 1.5 times by the time I was 16. My parents wouldn't let me stop until I was 17 though.

I didn't like the idea of getting a GED (at the time, in my teen-ness, I felt they labeled you a dropout). So I just put together transcripts by putting the amount of credits equally into each year of highschool.

I will be encouraging my kids to graduate as early as possible and to dual-enroll at the local CC. Undergraduate is the new highschool, IMO


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flower01* 
These are the kinds of things I think most people just don't consider. A lot of teenagers ARE lazy - but there could be an underlying reason for that too. Removing everything that gives pleasure and joy to your teenager could force them to complete high school, or it could make them more depressed and angry. I was overall a very good student, but there were classes I struggled with and it was because I was miserable at home and I didn't have the confidence to ask for help. My BIL has terrible grades, signs up for classes and then never finishes them. I'm sure his teachers all think he's just lazy. But, I promise there's way more to it than that. And when he comes to stay with us we're going to help him work towards his goals - hopefully that's completing high school, but we're not going to lock him in his room and take away all his privileges to get him there.

He's lucky to have you in his life!









For those who say yes,you would force your child to go...what would you do?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Undergraduate is the new highschool, IMO

I think so too -- having a college degree doesn't mean nearly what it did 20 years ago. As much as I value a college education, it's crazy that spending all that time and money is only maintaining the status quo these days.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I'm w/those who wonder how you could possibly 'force' a teenager to finsh high school. Plus, I want them to get a diploma because it's what they desired, not because I held anything over their head or threatened to put them on the streets.

Of course I WANT my kids to graduate from HS and do amazing things with their life. If I had a teen that hated school or was not getting an adequate education I would homeschool/unschool in a heartbeat. Chances are, we will be doing so (again) regardless - before they are of highschool age, anyway. If they wanted a GED before moving on to College (if that is what they desired) I will be just as proud as I would be if they stood up with their class and graduated with honors at a typical end of HS ceremony.

I do think much of my high school experience was time wasted. I would have preferred to be taking community college classes at 16 and working towards a degree.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

yes . . not nesscarily in a traditional high school setting. and if they refused I wouldn't necisarily financially support them. or at least not the same way I did.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
My kids will have no choice but to finish high school. That will be expected of them so they will do it.

I don't get this. What does it "will be expected" have to do with anything? We were expected to graduate, too. I'm the only one of the three of us who did so.

Quote:

I personally loved high school, the interaction and the teachers and even some of the classes.
Classes were tolerable - boring, slow and tedious, but tolerable. Everything else about high school sucked. I'm _so_ glad ds1 is having a better experience than I did.


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't get this. What does it "will be expected" have to do with anything? We were expected to graduate, too. I'm the only one of the three of us who did so.

Classes were tolerable - boring, slow and tedious, but tolerable. Everything else about high school sucked. I'm _so_ glad ds1 is having a better experience than I did.

I am also 1 of 3 so far but only I was expected to graduate and my twin brother wasn't. My mother didn't give me the choice of you can dropout and get your ged or get a highschool diploma, I had to get my diploma. My twin brother was never pushed to graduate so he gave up and is in jail right now. If my mother had expected the same things out of us I feel that we both would have graduated with our highschool diplomas. My kids will have to get their diplomas, no if ands or buts but if they just don't like their school I could definitely do some alternative things with them like online or even homeschool. I realize that you and me grew up in different circumstances with very different expectations from our communities but the expectations worked for me. Hope you understand what I mean

I am sorry to hear that you didn't care for school and I am glad your ds is experiencing that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
I am also 1 of 3 so far but only I was expected to graduate and my twin brother wasn't. My mother didn't give me the choice of you can dropout and get your ged or get a highschool diploma, I had to get my diploma. My twin brother was never pushed to graduate so he gave up and is in jail right now. If my mother had expected the same things out of us I feel that we both would have graduated with our highschool diplomas. That won't be tolerated in my household. We grew up in different circumstances but the expectations worked for me







Hope you understand what I mean

Fair enough. My sister ran away from home, mostly over the school issue. She preferred living on the streets to being at school. While I didn't do it, I can understand it. My fear of being on the streets was one of the only two motivators that got me through school. I'll also add that I was generally considered to be the smartest person in my grad class...and I squeaked through with the minimum number of credits, and passed one of those classes by a whopping 2%.

Quote:

I am sorry to hear that. We were a very tight nit group and very close and I am glad your ds is experiencing that.








I actually had a very close group of friend at my school. Unfortunately, only one of them was in my grade, and he wasn't in any of my classes (I knew him from grade school). I had lots of good times with my friends, but they were all off school grounds.

DS1 always makes friends. He doesn't really belong to a close group, because he has friends from all over the place...but that works for him. The only really consistent close friend over the last year or so is his ex-girlfriend, who is still his "best buddy".


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Fair enough. My sister ran away from home, mostly over the school issue. She preferred living on the streets to being at school. While I didn't do it, I can understand it. My fear of being on the streets was one of the only two motivators that got me through school. I'll also add that I was generally considered to be the smartest person in my grad class...and I squeaked through with the minimum number of credits, and passed one of those classes by a whopping 2%.

I actually had a very close group of friend at my school. Unfortunately, only one of them was in my grade, and he wasn't in any of my classes (I knew him from grade school). I had lots of good times with my friends, but they were all off school grounds.

DS1 always makes friends. He doesn't really belong to a close group, because he has friends from all over the place...but that works for him. The only really consistent close friend over the last year or so is his ex-girlfriend, who is still his "best buddy".

I actually edited my post because I won't be as strict as I made that sound. lol.

But I understand I was one of those kids (and still am to a certain degree) that had to constantly please people. I had to get the great job so I could help take care of my mother and brothers. I was pretty much the gold mind and I knew it. It wasn't any pressure from anyone just myself but now I am doing what I want and once my brother gets out ( in 4 days!!) I want to help pay for his GED.

Oh and I didn't mean to imply that you didn't have any friends or anything in school. I love to see other peoples sides to situations


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:

would you force your dc to finish highschool if he/she decided he/she wanted to drop out at say age 16?

would you still support them financially? Force them to work? etc.
I don't think I can force her. I would encourage her to finish or get her GED at least. I would work with her to find a solution.

We are homeschooling right now. I don't know if we will be for high school or not. I would be willing to.

I would probably expect her to contribute financially to the household if she was not going to school/homeschooling but living at home.


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## kay4 (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
Yeah, I would do anything and everything I could to force my kid to finish high school.

Ditto this


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## Calee (May 10, 2008)

Of course I can not pick up my 16 year old, dress him, and carry him into school.

But I think I understand the essence of the question, and yes, I will do everything in my power as a parent to have my child finish high school.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

ok, i suppose this might not be anything, but as a HS with strong US leanings, my husband and i also talked about not pressuring about college. we want hawk to find his passion and then get what education he needs to do that.

so, if he is passionate about street preforming in brussels, then perhaps we figure out what that's about and help him out. but if he's passionate about nuclear physics, then we find a way for him to be educated about that. it's really up to him.

in this vein, the great thing IMO about HS/US is that high school ends when you're ready for it to end so long as you meet the general educational requirements and whats-its for your state. i had many HSed friends when i was in highschool and i was VERY envious of the fact that most didnt' do school past 16, and some were in college then while others were doing all kinds of cool things. For example, one went and lived with friends in Europe for a year, while another was in central america with other friends. both had to do volunteer work while there, and then came home with a sense of what they wanted to do and then got the education required to do that (one is a doctor who does a lot of doctors-without-borders sorts of activities, the other is a teacher who works with special needs children).

when i was 16, i so badly wanted out of school. for the most part, i would go in for attendence and then check out of the classroom by saying that i needed to go to the bathroom. when the weather was good, i would wander outside, walk to a local cafe, do my homework, hang out and read whatever, talk to folks who happened by, and even serve lunch at the soup kitchen. then, i'd wander back to school at the close of day (taking the bathroom pass back to homeroom).

it seemed that no one noticed that i was gone, or they noticed but didnt' care because, at that age, i was such a PITA and incredibly disrespectful in class due to excessive boredom. i think i would actually 'stay in school' one or two days a week as a 'token' to the teachers and admin--but otherwise, everyone just let me wander about and they knew where i was anyway (down the street at the cafe, then the soup kitchen), and i got my work done so no one seemed to care.

i SERIOUSLY WISH that my parents had let me take the GED or get an International Bacc or something so that i didn't have to go to that prison-o-boredom.

anyhoot, because of my high school experience, i would definitely find a way for hawk to 'quit school' if that's what he needed.

and it might be noted that i'm largely an autodidact anyway. i'm very self motivated to learn about things that i want to know about.







i mean, i did graduate with honors in high school--even though i was hardly there my senior year anyway. LOL!

so, i figure that hawk will have a love of learning and not really need a curriculum by that age, and if he wanted to go to argentina and work a ranch, we could work that out. or if he wanted to move to NYC and do whatever, we'd work that out too.

you know? it's really about getting out of his way!


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

No, I wouldn't. But they would need to find a way to work if they weren't going to school.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

oh, and, if all else fails, i'll just do what ruthla said--turn it into the right language and get the paperwork done.

though, of course, i'm not at all concerned about this. i have every reason to believe that hawk will discover his passion and want to do everything in his power to do meaningful work.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Justthatgirl* 
They don't have to finish high school but they will get a GED, at least.

I agree. I made all four of my children take the CA-HPE so that they finished legally at least by exam.

I also made them work.

Only my third finished high school by "walking across the stage". I was hoping he would go on to a good college with an athletic scholarship, but he did not. He did go to a trade school and paid off his loans in the first year.

MY SIL never got her high school diploma but she did get a PhD in special education.

For me high school was a total waste of time. I think it is industry's way of keeping young people out of the work force and the Department of Labor's way of keeping child labor a non-problem.


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## ExpatDeb (Feb 7, 2009)

Based upon my life experiences and my work with adolescents during high school, my child will be expected to graduate. This expectation has been put in place since she was born and is supported by being involved in a positive way in her life. Obviously things can go sideways-but immediate intervention is best.

She can color her hair 8 colors, have 25 piercing, 85 tattoos but the fact is that without a basic education she is starting from behind the rest. Not to say you cant be successful without a diploma but I am not interested in testing fantasies on her.

My mother wouldn't pay for my first wedding unless I graduated college. She was right (as always) and it was a great decision. I hope my DD grows up enjoying learning, including the sometimes boring stuff in school.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grniys* 
NAK

I made a comment like that. When my kid is 16 it's very much in my power to take away his car, his computer, allowance, cell phone and ground him until he's back in school. I will be a sahm until the kids are in college, so I have all the time in the world to watch his actions day in and day out and make him miserable being out of school. Sound harsh? Yes. But that is what is in my power to do if my kid drops out.

I'm sure many will think I'm a horrible mom, but dh's brother and step brother both didn't graduate on time. One was a 5 year senior who still doesn't do anything with his life and the other is a drop out living with his mom, who is paying all the bills for his children and him.

I'm not just going to sit back and let my kid ruin his life. It's called tough love, and while I want to be gentle sometime's it's needed.


My MIL loves to comment on how we should educate our children. However, 5 of her 12 children dropped out and one daughter, they turned out at 15 to be a nanny for a neighbor family. That SIL can barely read. My DH can barely read. (he is also a drop-out) I am waiting for the next time MIL pops off at me about education, since she didn't even make sure her kids could read.

In our home, our children will not be allowed to quit school, because here, the parent has to give permission until age 18. I refuse to do that. Now, homeschooling may be an option, or online schooling, etc. But, getting a HS diploma is the least one can do to help with their future.

Unfortunately, even the lesser skilled jobs are requiring a diploma or GED these days.

My mom had only a few rules: 1. Go to school and do your best. 2. Graduate *from* high school. 3. Behave yourself.

I don't think that those are unreasonable in the least.


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## marlne (Mar 15, 2006)

If my kids are having a hard time at school then I'd work with them on finding another way to get through.
We'd work with an accredited online homeschooling program or some other homeschooling program.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

seriously, it's graduate FROM high school. "graduate high school" has to be my biggest pet peeve! LOL!


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## THANKFULFORFIVE (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh goodness mamas! I seem to have a very different opinion than most of you. I view continued education as an absolute necessity! My kids all vary in their academic strenths and commitments...but we would NEVER let them believe there was an option NOT to finish high school.


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## fruitfulmomma (Jun 8, 2002)

Another homeschooling family here...

First, neither my husband nor I graduated from H.S. We both have our GED. I quit after 10th with the idea of getting my GED and going to college. I tried to take some alternative classes to get ready to pass it, but could not because my mother made too much money to qualify for assistance and not enough to actually pay for it. My teacher there told me I was on my way to writing my Doctorate anyway and thought I would just be wasting my time with her, so I should just go take it. Because I was only 16, I had to petition the SBE to take it and they denied my request, so I had to wait until I was 17. After that I started college and boy, it was nearly as dreadful as H.S. Honestly, I just don't deal well with classroom learning and I could never force a child to do something I wouldn't expect of myself.

DH went to a private school and was one year away from graduating when they told him he needed to repeat an entire year because they had lost his files showing his credits. He told them he was quitting, walked out and drove to the local community college to sign up for classes. Though he never got a college degree he appreciates the time he spent there. Unlike myself, he actually loved the classroom learning/exchanges.

Now we both have views on education that are so far removed from the typical school situation that this question is actually totally moot for us. I believe our expectations for our children are actually much higher than the public schools, but how they meet those expectations, well, that will depend entirely on their personal talents and goals. It may very well be that one of our children needs to do a private home school high school program and then go to college, but then again maybe not. For us, formal classroom learning is just one tool among many to reach our educational goals and it is not our preferred one.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I would actually prefer that my kids do homeschool for high school (which would likely involve taking more relevant community college classes and getting a GED and/or beginning college or trade school early if that was something s/he wanted to do).

Traditional high school can be such an incredibly big waste of time, I can't imagine forcing my kids to stay in for any reason.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I feel strongly that my child spend his time in ways that are interesting, productive, and meaningful to him. I encourage constant critical thought and learning. So I sure as hell hope he doesn't go to high school at all, much less finish it. Even the "good" private schools I've experienced have more in common with prison than with a consensual learning environment. There will be plenty of time to sit around bored, in a big group of age mates, following somebody else's idea of what he should be doing once he's in a nursing home.

Joking! Of course I hope he doesn't end up in a nursing home, either.

Frankly, I'm always surprised at the moms I meet who think it's terrible to force learning on a 3 year old (like toilet training) but just dandy to force mainstream ideas of what a 15 year old should be doing on their child. It's as if AP, and their own critical thought about what's best for their individual child, switches off when it comes to school.


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## fruitfulmomma (Jun 8, 2002)

"There will be plenty of time to sit around bored, in a big group of age mates, following somebody else's idea of what he should be doing once he's in a nursing home."


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *green betty* 

Frankly, I'm always surprised at the moms I meet who think it's terrible to force learning on a 3 year old (like toilet training) but just dandy to force mainstream ideas of what a 15 year old should be doing on their child. It's as if AP, and their own critical thought about what's best for their individual child, switches off when it comes to school.

thank you! I don't get it, either.

I still want to know how this 'forcing' will happen. Will you kick them out? Withhold any financial support? no Food? threaten, punish, bribe? what???? Sounds like "any means necessary" to me, could consist of those examples. Which, is funny because if you have done a stellar job raising your CHILD, then chances are your TEEN will have their head on straight and find their way, even if they take a bit longer. What about trusting your kid a little bit more?

ETA: 'expecting' vs. 'forcing' is where I'm lost.


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## Erin082 (Jan 25, 2009)

Interesting thread . . . high school was pure hell for me, and rather traumatic in a number of ways. I was always "the smartest kid in the class" so not finishing was not an option for me. I definitely did not acheive to the best of my abilities, as evidenced by my 2.7 gpa and nearly perfect ACT scores. I earned a scholarship to college based on those scores and my musical ability alone . . . so in retrospect a ged would have done just as well, and I was so ready to move on by 16 anyways. So for me, HS is not really the point education is, however. I believe in knowledge for the sake of knowledge, so I will encourage my children to follow their passions and learn everything they can . . . but I will help them find a path that fits for them. My df never finished school, and has been very successful . . . no one even asks, at 38 years old. Its beyond the point.


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## Draupadi (Jul 19, 2007)

Can I force him?
No.
I would strongly encourage it.
Part of the reason why I am who I am is because I got a good education, and I'm proud of that.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
seriously, it's graduate FROM high school. "graduate high school" has to be my biggest pet peeve! LOL!

You are right. My post had that exact phrase in it. I am a college graduate and should know better. I guess I was in a hurry.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THANKFULFORFIVE* 
Oh goodness mamas! I seem to have a very different opinion than most of you. I view continued education as an absolute necessity! My kids all vary in their academic strenths and commitments...but we would NEVER let them believe there was an option NOT to finish high school.

How are you going to control what they believe? Dropping out wasn't an "option" in my home, either. My brother actually went and lived in a trailer in my grandmother's driveway for three months, because dropping out "wasn't an option". When my sister dropped out, at the end of 10th grade, she was already repeating two 9th grade classes and one 8th grade class...and had done summer school for at least one of those. A parent can't _make_ a child graduate. My mom half-killed herself trying to get us through school, but none of us was cut out for a school environment in any way. It's a minor miracle, imo, that my brother stuck it out as long as he did (almost finished 11th grade). I'm still stunned, when I think about it, that I graduated at all.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I'd figure out a way for them to at least get a high school equivalency. I dropped out in 11th grade and have a G.E.D which in my state is equal to a high school diploma.

Dh would freak though. It'd be very difficult for him to understand.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes, I would force them to. If they want to play grown up and drop out at 16, then they will go to work fulltime, and pay all their own bills.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
Yes, I would force them to. If they want to play grown up and drop out at 16, then they will go to work fulltime, and pay all their own bills.

If they're working fulltime and paying their own bills, they still haven't graduated from high school, so you haven't forced them to do so, right?

I just don't get this at all.

And, describing drop-outs as "wanting to play grown up" shows a profound lack of understanding of the complicated factors that motivate people to drop out. I had no desire to play grown-up at all. I think my sister did. I don't think my brother did. I just wanted out of prison. The last day of high school sent a wave of relief through me like I've never experienced at any other time in my life. Breaking up with my emotionally abusive ex-husband came close, but I actually had a few regrets there. I had _no_ regrets about being out of high school. In fact, not wanting to have to "play grown-up" contributed to me sticking around. I had no faith in my ability to find paying work, and had less than no desire to end up on the street (I had several friends who were on the street for various amounts of time, and while they tried to paint it as an adventure, it just sounded scary to me)...so I did my time. But, that's all it was - serving time. I stayed because I even more afraid of leaving than staying, and for no other reason


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

very intresting!!

I hope that I never have to cross this bridge. I would feel like I had failed my children if they didn't want to learn! I really don't care what you want to do as long as you want something!


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## pokeyrin (Apr 3, 2008)

I'd be a hypocrite for trying to force my child to finish high school since I pretty much stopped going at age 14. I did get my GED, then put myself through college and got an associate's first, then my bachelor's and I currently work in administration at the very community college I graduated from.

Needless to say I value education highly even though I don't necessarily believe that you have to go through the formal process to be successful in life. There are many who believe that college can be just as much of a waste of time as high school. But I also realize that there are many out there just like me who just are not talented or lucky enough to land a decent wage paying job without a degree.

As a parent I'm just not even going to give my child any inkling that dropping out of high school is an acceptable option with me. However if she really pushed the issue then I would say, "Ok, if you drop of high school then you must take the GED". She may be able to come up with excellent reasons for not wanting to complete high school, but she'd be hard pressed to come up with any for not wanting to take an exam. She may refuse to take the exam as well and I still won't force her.

Whatever the case is, if she feels mature enough to make an important decision like that, then she also has to be mature enough to deal with the results of that decision.

If she isn't in school while living at home then I'd fully expect her to do something productive with her free time and she'll have responsibilities at home as well. She'd have to work (even if it's part-time) or I'll find her plenty of work to do for me. While I fully believe in supporting my child, I'm not responsible for supporting a lifestyle so anything that's not a necessity will come out of her own pocket.

Hopefully we will have raised her well enough that she should be prepared to handle herself with whatever decisions she chooses to make about her life.


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

I don't see not finishing high school as an option in our family. I feel that age 18 is too young to make decisions that will seriously limit future educational opportunities, career choices, etc. If there's a problem with the social scene or academics at the high school, I'll work with my kids to find alternatives, but I think it's very important to graduate from high school. I don't necessarily want them studying for the GED later--I think colleges prefer a degree from a school.


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

Of course they will be expected to finish high school. What are they going to do if they don't get that minimum education? It will be damn near impossible to get a job to support yourself financially without a diploma and I am not going to let them live at home and just sit around.

Education (high school and college) is an expectation in our household. I was raised with those expectations, and probably wouldn't have gone to college otherwise. My DH was never expected to go to college and he deeply regrets not getting a degree (and is currently working on his bachelors)

Now, I recognize that finishing high school may not be walking across the stage in a cap and gown. And that's fine. The experience can be tailored to the needs of my children. But just dropping out, not getting a GED? Hell no, not in this house. Unless there is an extremely extraordainary circumstance. (like a comet is coming to destroy the earth kind of circumstance)


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## Logan's mommy (Jan 19, 2007)

Dh is a high school teacher at an alternative high school in town, so I don't think dropping out would be an option for either of our kids.

I feel strongly that to make a decent living these days you MUST graduate from high school and have at least a bachelors degree from college.

I HATED high school, I was made fun of everyday, I didn't have many friends, and I had a baby midway through my senior year, but I graduated on time and am glad I did.

I would do everything I could to keep my kids in school, but, once they turn 18 they can drop out with out my permission. If they do that, though, they will need to get a job and start supporting themselves.

They will be welcome to live here for free as long as they are persuing an education.

That's just my $0.02


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

I don't think I could "force" my child to do anything. She's much too much like me and stubborn. However, I would do my best to raise her in an environment where finishing high school, either in a traditional setting or homeschool, is very much desirable. If she hated her high school then DH and I would consider home schooling her or finding a school that she and we liked. I'm willing to be flexible but I do expect her to finish high school. It's far too early to say what she'll be like at 18 but so far she seems to love learning and reading so that gives me hope she'll continue that throughout her life. And yes, I know learning doesn't necessarily have to take place in a school classroom.

I come from a long line of educators. Not graduating from high school wasn't an option for me. I never questioned it. I knew I had to do it and go to college. I have no regrets about being raised in such an atmosphere. I got to where I am today because of it. My DD has some special needs and we pay privately for her therapy. I wouldn't be able to afford that for her had I not graduated from high school and college. The job I have now requires both a college degree and a certain GPA in college.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

My children will graduate or at least have a GED as long as they are living in my home. That being said, as long as they are in school, I would not force them to get jobs. Their schoolwork is a better investment then any job they might have while still in school. I will do anything I can to help them to finish high school because I honestly don't bellieve that they will be able to support themselves in this day and age without graduating.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
My children will graduate or at least have a GED as long as they are living in my home. That being said, as long as they are in school, I would not force them to get jobs. Their schoolwork is a better investment then any job they might have while still in school. I will do anything I can to help them to finish high school because I honestly don't bellieve that they will be able to support themselves in this day and age without graduating.

Yep. I feel much the same.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Interesting question! Too many posts to read them all









I will not force my child to finish any school at all outside the home. If they do not like school, I will home school them. If they are of high school age, and have had enough education to get a GED, then I would not expect them to continue with home school if they did not want to anymore. I would expect them to get some type of job or go to college. I plan to do my best to explain to them that the time we spend working is a Long Long Long time - much longer than the time we spend in school. It is so worth it to get the education if that helps you get a job you will enjoy. If school is not needed, then do what is needed to get that job. I wish that my parents had been successful in teaching this to me as it has been a painful lesson to learn on my own.

My kids can live in my house as long as they want as long as they seem to continue to be maturing in other aspects of their lives or if they need me and DH's help to mature. I guess I'm trying to say if my kids end up bums and want to remain bums, I'm not really going to want to continue to suppurt them as I think that is enabling them and does not help them to find their own way.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
very intresting!!

I hope that I never have to cross this bridge. I would feel like I had failed my children if they didn't want to learn!

What does not wanting to learn have to do with not graduating from high school? I wanted to - and did - learn all kinds of things in my teens, but very, very few of them were in the classroom. Aside from some math (because I loved it) and a tiny bit of both French and German (because I enjoyed them, but have never used them), I don't remember anything I learned in high school.

I'm still astonished at how many people say that not graduating "isn't an option" for their kids (or that it wasn't for themselves). Short of chaining a kid to a desk, how does anybody propose to prevent a child from dropping out?


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm still astonished at how many people say that not graduating "isn't an option" for their kids (or that it wasn't for themselves). Short of chaining a kid to a desk, how does anybody propose to prevent a child from dropping out?

As someone who did dropout, looking back 20 years now, I do think that there were things that my parents could have did that would have better encouraged me to stay and graduate. Instead they were of the mindset that if I didn't go to school, I had to work so guess what I got a job.

I had failed gym and chemistry my junior year, perhaps if they had looked for some solutions so that I would not have had to do summer school, I would have stayed. I think if parents try to talk with their kids and get at the root of the problems then a mutually satisfying solution can be had for parent and child.

In addition to failing 2 classes, there was aslso issues of class at my school, I went to magnet school in a well to do area and we were not well to do at all. Looking back and this was like 89-90, so there was no online school but certainly some homeschooling even could have kept me on track.

In the end my folks saying work or school did not help because I did work and then decided to run off and get married. Which in the long run was not the best idea, based off my own life experiences I would do any and everything to help my kid to graduate from high school. I do beleive however that for AP parents of we have been as involved and attached as we like to believe we are, I would suspect a good middle ground could be acheived without physically dragging a child to school.

I suspect when folks are saying they would not allow their kid to drop out its more a manner of speech than anything else.

Shay


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## Ofwait (Feb 16, 2008)

There are so many alternatives to traditional High school, GED, vocational, alternative, online, or homeschool. There are so many options now that I think just about any one would be able to find one that isn't too onerous.
I would "force" my children to finish one of these, because without a highschool diploma, or equivalent, you can't even work at McDonalds.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

I would never allow my child's education to get in the way of his learning. That said, I didn't force my child to finish fourth grade, much less high school.

And in fact, college isn't even an issue for me because I live in a college town and the fast food restaurants are full of people working with Bachelors and Masters degrees. Why are they working there? Because they went to school to get their degree to get a job and when they were done, there were either 1) no jobs or 2) no passion for the job. I would much rather my children learn everything they want, and find and follow their passions to the end.

My husband is the oldest of eight children, and the only one with a college degree. And yet, his brothers and sisters all make 'enough'. And they didn't have a load of student loans to pay back either. For a while, his little brother was making $180,000 a year, with a HS diploma, because he was dredging rivers...the same time that my college educated husband was starting out with a college degree at the bottom of the barrel barely making enough to pay our rent. BIL made enough to buy his land, buy his house, buy vehicles, and then quit to start his own business. He is happy, he and his wife and seven kids are happy and well-provided for. They aren't even uneducated buffoons, as elitists might expect, they read papers, they discuss news, and they have fun rednecking on Saturday nights. It's not all or the other.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 
My husband is the oldest of eight children, and the only one with a college degree. And yet, his brothers and sisters all make 'enough'. And they didn't have a load of student loans to pay back either. For a while, his little brother was making $180,000 a year, with a HS diploma, because he was dredging rivers...the same time that my college educated husband was starting out with a college degree at the bottom of the barrel barely making enough to pay our rent. BIL made enough to buy his land, buy his house, buy vehicles, and then quit to start his own business. He is happy, he and his wife and seven kids are happy and well-provided for.

Nobody in my family has ever made that kind of money, but the difference between those with degrees and those without hasn't always been terribly significant. The two greatest income earners in my family, my stepdad and stepbrother, both have degrees...but my stepdad's income comes from an industry that he didn't need his degree to get into at all. My stepbrother does use his degree in what he does, but he's not making _that_ much more than my dh. DH is the next highest paid in the whole family...and the next two are my brother and BIL, both of whom are _high school_ dropouts. There are a lot of factors at play with workplace success, and the extent to which degrees seem to be pushing out all the others worries me a little.

ETA: The focus of the above post is a bit strange, because for some reason, I thought I was in the thread about degrees...


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I will do everything I can to encourage my child to finish high school, although I am flexible about alternative methods and GED and such. In particular, I want to be certain he avoids this situation which nobody has mentioned:

My alma mater university has a summer program for high school students; professors teaching in this program can recommend students to start college right away rather than return to high school. Kids offered this option often are so wowed and flattered (and sick of being the smartest kid in their HS) that they do it. It CAN be a great opportunity. But 3 of the people I knew in college who had done this then hit a rough patch--because the academic demands were so huge, and/or because they weren't really ready to be a thousand miles away from their parents for months at a time--and either took some time off and tried to get a job, or tried to transfer to a college closer to home. Well, at that point they realized they were not high school graduates! Despite their year or two of coursework at one of America's most prestigious universities, they had the employment opportunities of a high school dropout, and other colleges considered them ineligible to apply.







I will not give my child permission (which he'd require, being under 18) to start college before completing high school--whether by GED, special arrangement to get his diploma, or actually returning for senior year.

Of course, that doesn't rule out concurrent enrollment in high school and college, which I think is a fine option. Graduating early is fine, too. I'd love to see my son make better use of that time of his life than my brother and I did. We got good grades, took honors classes, and all that, but I spent my entire senior year itching to get out of there and very distracted and feeling a desperate sense that one of the best years of my life was being wasted--in retrospect, true--and my brother was one of the oldest in his grade (due to a very strictly applied birthdate cutoff), was bored all the way through school, and emotionally could have handled going away to college the fall he turned 16, when he still had 3 years to go!

I'd also be open to my child completing high school in an alternative part-time program so that he can spend most of his day doing something else, if he has a strong interest, particularly if it's something like a sport or modeling where the best opportunities are in the late teens. I mean, I'm not particularly keen on sports or modeling, but if that's my child's consuming career interest and he shows a lot of promise, I want him to pursue it--just not by skipping out on a diploma altogether.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I would be very flexible about facilitating their high school experience (in school, changing schools, homeschool, online, GED, etc), but I expect them to finish high school.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WilliamsMama* 
Can I force him?
No.
I would strongly encourage it.
Part of the reason why I am who I am is because I got a good education, and I'm proud of that.









:

I would not force, but I would strongly encourage finishing. One thing I would do is make it as easy as possible for him to go back and finish. DH dropped out of high school and moved out west, but he was able to come back and finish a few years later when he was ready. He went on to university and a Master's. I also dropped out of university after two years, spent a year working in the Caribbean, and then came back. I went on to a PhD.

Given our backgrounds, I imagine we would support DS in taking a break if he needs to. I would also strongly consider helping to finance a gap year of travel as an incentive -- i.e. a year of travel between finishing high school and starting university or college.


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## THANKFULFORFIVE (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How are you going to control what they believe? Dropping out wasn't an "option" in my home, either. My brother actually went and lived in a trailer in my grandmother's driveway for three months, because dropping out "wasn't an option". When my sister dropped out, at the end of 10th grade, she was already repeating two 9th grade classes and one 8th grade class...and had done summer school for at least one of those. A parent can't _make_ a child graduate. My mom half-killed herself trying to get us through school, but none of us was cut out for a school environment in any way. It's a minor miracle, imo, that my brother stuck it out as long as he did (almost finished 11th grade). I'm still stunned, when I think about it, that I graduated at all.

Children model behaviors....obviously every household is different. I grew up seeing and believing what an impact education has on one's future....So, I've tried to instill those "beliefs" in my children. I was thankful to get to go to school. I want my children to know that education is a priveledge, whether public, private, or home! Not everyone's homelife is happy and functional and that can certainly spill-over into other areas. Looking back, weren't there ANY interventions that could have been introduced earlier to facilitate a better learning environment for you and your siblings? I think some parents "guide" their children differently. My kids, simply have never been exposed to someone who never finished high school. They actually LIKE school. We've had to deal with plenty of "issues" pertaining to their environment, however, I can't imagine coming up against something so challenging that the best outcome would be to quit!!!!


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I think if parents try to talk with their kids and get at the root of the problems then a mutually satisfying solution can be had for parent and child.

I agree with this. And I think that if my teenage son didn't want to do anything but be a "bum" (no school/no work/no plans) and this went on for more than a few weeks I would look into the possibility of depression, chemical dependency or another root cause. Although DH and I have family backgrounds that differ greatly in regards to formal education, it would be very atypical for a young person in either of our families to not want to learn, to work, or to grow toward a self-sufficient future. I would be concerned and want to work together to find a solution.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THANKFULFORFIVE* 
Children model behaviors....obviously every household is different. I grew up seeing and believing what an impact education has on one's future....So, I've tried to instill those "beliefs" in my children. I was thankful to get to go to school. I want my children to know that education is a priveledge, whether public, private, or home! Not everyone's homelife is happy and functional and that can certainly spill-over into other areas. Looking back, weren't there ANY interventions that could have been introduced earlier to facilitate a better learning environment for you and your siblings? I think some parents "guide" their children differently. My kids, simply have never been exposed to someone who never finished high school. They actually LIKE school. We've had to deal with plenty of "issues" pertaining to their environment, however, *I can't imagine coming up against something so challenging that the best outcome would be to quit*!!!!

I can't think of anything. It's possible that now, with online options and such, something could be done. Back then...nope. I suppose private school _might_ have helped, but that wasn't financially feasible.

I _loved_ school up until about 6th or 7th grade. After that, I liked an occasional class (mostly math), but mostly just hated it. Getting me out of a school and into a different environment might have helped, but I don't know what other environment might have been available. Any intervention would have had to have been done pretty early, as I was completely negative about school by about 13 or 14.

Education wasn't a privilege. It was something I was expected to do, no matter how much I hated it. When you require people, by law, to do something, calling it a privilege is...odd, imo.

Anyway...my grandparents all expected us to graduate. My mom never entertained the notion that we wouldn't, until it all went to pieces around her. My dad was a high school dropout (largely because of being moved around so much, I expect - for some grades, he attended 3 different schools), but there was never any suggestion that dropping out was an option for us. Of course we knew people who did it - other students at school dropped out. Even if they hadn't, it was obvious that nobody was going to chain us to our desks, so the option to leave was always there.

As to the part of your quote that I bolded, I've never quite been able to believe, deep down, that, for some people, high school is actually tolerable enough _not_ to want to quit. I've had just as much trouble believing that people actually like high school. I know some people do. DS1 loves it. He had to stay home sick yesterday (extremely rare - think it was his first time in high school) and he was really upset about missing a day. It's just so alien to me that I can't even begin to wrap my brain around it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I think if parents try to talk with their kids and get at the root of the problems then a mutually satisfying solution can be had for parent and child.

Parents? What can a parent do about a school?


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## ilovemykid1972 (Feb 11, 2009)

yes I would force them.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Too many posts to read them all.

No, I would not force my children to do anything. However, I cannot put in words how deeply disappointed I would be if they didn't want to graduate High School. I value education very highly. I planned on being a SAHM but I still graduated high school, went to college and a little bit of graduate school. I have degrees in chemistry and english and education. I went to school not for the benefit of a degree or the ability to make money, I went to school because gathering knowledge and experience is an essential part of my own identity and humanity. So, as you can see, I value education VERY highly.

I would do anything and everything to help them graduate if they told me they didn't want to. I would home school, I would pay for private school, I would stand on my head in a clown suit everyday for the rest of their lives. I would do anything.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Parents? What can a parent do about a school?

I am not sure I am understanding you....as far as I see it, parents can do a whole lot ranging from looking for a different school to homeschooling the kid. As I stated earlier I did drop out of HS and I really feel that if my parents had been more proactive instead of saying go to work if you aren't in school that it would have made a difference.

I am also speaking as the mother of a 17 yo son and while I can't force my kid to do anything at his age, based off the way he has been raised, I find that we can often find a middle ground on just about any issue. If he were inclined to drop out which he is not I suspect we would be able to find a common ground that would work for both of us.

I just think there is a whole lot of space between go to school or else and forcing the kid to go. Teenagers may stand on the cusp of adulthood but as I am reminded of at times with my own son, he is not an adult and its my job to help facilitate a healthy landing into adulthood.

Shay


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

SB, I don't know where you are, but I'm a parent governor of one school and a community governor of another. The taxes I pay fund the education of the next generation and it is my civic duty to make damn sure that it's up to the job. Sometimes, changing the school is not actually as hard as it seems at first thought, especially if that school has an expectation of community involvement.

Having said that, I have deeply contradictory views on the subject. My education was focussed on exam results and not on, you know, actually learning anything. At least, that's how it felt at the time, though I'm surprised by how much I actually do know sometimes. I'm having to start over again to get a university degree at 31 and my older sons are seeing this, and they saw their stepfather retrain. Above all else, we want them to believe that education is a whole of life process, and that you will never EVER stop learning something new- and in order to do this, they have to love learning and not get turned off by poor teaching.

On the other hand, they know that "rich" Uncle Douglas (who isn't actually rich) got his good job as a bank manager because he worked hard enough at school to get into a grammar school and then got taken on by the bank purely on the strength of hard work, and that has made a huge impression. Similar story with my dad- and sometimes, actions speak louder than words.


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## THANKFULFORFIVE (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Parents? What can a parent do about a school?

Gosh, I could give you MANY examples! The first that pops into my head is this experience I had with dd1 in elementary: after school one day, while the kids were waiting in the gym for the buses, my daughter was talking to the child behind her...apparently ther is a "no talking" policy in the lines? WTH? Anyhow, a bus monitor wrote her name down, so the following day the names of the kids who were talking are read over the LOUD SPEAKER and they lose their recess! My daughter was mortified about this "policy", as, of course, was understandable....I kept her home that day and called the principal. He responded with a curt "well, that's the policy and I feel that it works" I said, "So, she's punished twice? First, publicly humiliated, then losing recess?" I hung up, immediately called the superintendant and left a message describing the incident. Within seconds I got a call from the asst. Superintenant who was in disbelief...certainly I HAD to be mistaken about this "policy"!!!??? Within minutes, she called me back----extremely apologetic and said "That was NOT a district policy and it would NEVER be happening again"! ---- PARENTS CAN DO A LOT! We advocate for our kids....protect them, nurture them, and make sure they are in the safest environment we can provide.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I am not sure I am understanding you....as far as I see it, parents can do a whole lot ranging from looking for a different school to homeschooling the kid.

Ah - gotcha. Another school wasn't an option back then, as we had strict catchments. In any case, I encountered kids from other schools who knew all about me, so I don't think another school would have helped much, even if they'd been allowed to transfer me. A school with no other students, no teachers and no administrative staff might have worked...as long as there was a big library and a helpful librarian.









Homeschooling, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't even legal here when I finished school...and support and resources, especially for high school level subjects, would have been _very_ hard to find.

Quote:

I find that we can often find a middle ground on just about any issue. If he were inclined to drop out which he is not I suspect we would be able to find a common ground that would work for both of us.
I'm totally missing the point here. There was no middle ground with my _parents_ involved. I knew my mom wanted me to graduate. She knew I hated school. I did, in fact, graduate, but there was nothing she could have done that would have made school even remotely tolerable.

Quote:

I just think there is a whole lot of space between go to school or else and forcing the kid to go. Teenagers may stand on the cusp of adulthood but as I am reminded of at times with my own son, he is not an adult and its my job to help facilitate a healthy landing into adulthood.
Five years of high school wasn't a "healthy" anything for me, or for quite a few other people I know/knew. It was soul-destroying and tremendously emotionally damaging, and I'm _still_, at 40, experiencing negative ripples from those years.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THANKFULFORFIVE* 
Gosh, I could give you MANY examples! The first that pops into my head is this experience I had with dd1 in elementary: after school one day, while the kids were waiting in the gym for the buses, my daughter was talking to the child behind her...apparently ther is a "no talking" policy in the lines? WTH? Anyhow, a bus monitor wrote her name down, so the following day the names of the kids who were talking are read over the LOUD SPEAKER and they lose their recess! My daughter was mortified about this "policy", as, of course, was understandable....I kept her home that day and called the principal. He responded with a curt "well, that's the policy and I feel that it works" I said, "So, she's punished twice? First, publicly humiliated, then losing recess?" I hung up, immediately called the superintendant and left a message describing the incident. Within seconds I got a call from the asst. Superintenant who was in disbelief...certainly I HAD to be mistaken about this "policy"!!!??? Within minutes, she called me back----extremely apologetic and said "That was NOT a district policy and it would NEVER be happening again"! ---- PARENTS CAN DO A LOT! We advocate for our kids....protect them, nurture them, and make sure they are in the safest environment we can provide.

I had no problems of that ilk when I was in elementary school. Actually, I was a "teacher's pet", who would had straight As (except in PE), if letter grades had been assigned in those years. If my mom had done that when I was high school, I'd have been so humiliated that I wouldn't have set foot in that school again for _anything_. There isn't much my mom could have done (she tried, and did get one or two changes made - at least one of them _way_ outside the usual scope of what was allowed), because it wasn't one incident or one policy that was causing me problems. It was the entire high school experience. Some kids simply do not thrive in a high school environment, and I was one of them, as was my brother. DS1 utterly thrives on school - every part of it. He enjoys his classes, enjoys his social life, enjoys extracurricular stuff - you name it. I was not like that in any way.


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## Freefromitall (Sep 15, 2008)

I can't chain them to a desk. But I won't support them financially if they drop out. Consequences, ya know? One of the consequences of not getting a diploma(or GED) is having to figure out how to support yourself on a min wage job.
And honestly, there are SOOOO many different options for schooling now, I just cannot think of an excuse that I would find acceptable(for my child).
I myself was HS'ed, private school, on-line school, and finished up with an accredited by-mail course.
And as long as they actually did the work, I wouldn't be opposed to paying for an accredited online/by mail course (I know my limits well enough to know I wouldn't want to HS a highschool student by myself)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
SB, I don't know where you are, but I'm a parent governor of one school and a community governor of another. The taxes I pay fund the education of the next generation and it is my civic duty to make damn sure that it's up to the job. Sometimes, changing the school is not actually as hard as it seems at first thought, especially if that school has an expectation of community involvement.

The schools have changed a lot since I was a kid. They have even more community involvement, and are involved in all kinds of stuff. It's unfortunate that the education part seems to be left hanging, but I guess it's more important to send parents insulting letters about their eating habits. (My sister's youngest three are now going through the same elementary school that ds1 went through, and every single thing that comes home from the school makes me even happier that I have the option to homeschool.)

Quote:

Above all else, we want them to believe that education is a whole of life process, and that you will never EVER stop learning something new- and in order to do this, they have to love learning and not get turned off by poor teaching.
I don't know if it was poor teaching, or if it was a curriculum issue, or what, but that's _exactly_ what happened to me. When I was young, I thought of the words "learning" and "education" as being practically synonymous with "fun" and "recreation". Within a year of starting high school, they changed their meanings in my head. To this day, when I think of "education", I think of boredom and mental stagnation. I learned more in a day of just reading and thinking than I did in a week of boring, repetitive lectures from teachers...and, eventually, I completely shut off. I'm _trying_ to turn it back on, but...can't figure out how to get back to a place where learning is enjoyable. I learn all the time, of course...but as soon as I try to formalize it, it becomes tedious and I can't summon any interest. I eventually even lost interest in math, and if you'd told me at 16 that, a year or so later, I'd have no interest in math, I'd have laughed at you.

You know...talking about this, I can even vaguely remember how exciting it was when I started to realize all the things that can be figured out using math. I even specifically remember a trig exercise we did in...7th grade?...to calculate the height of the school flagpole, and how incredibly cool it was that it was even possible to do that. And, yet...when I hear "trig" now, I shut off. Most of what that word conjures up is a very clear memory of absolute and utter boredom, while I sat trapped in a desk listening to a teacher explain _again_ something I already understood.

Schools don't want kids to learn. They want kids to behave.


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THANKFULFORFIVE* 
Children model behaviors....obviously every household is different. I grew up seeing and believing what an impact education has on one's future....So, I've tried to instill those "beliefs" in my children. I was thankful to get to go to school. I want my children to know that education is a priveledge, whether public, private, or home! Not everyone's homelife is happy and functional and that can certainly spill-over into other areas. Looking back, weren't there ANY interventions that could have been introduced earlier to facilitate a better learning environment for you and your siblings? I think some parents "guide" their children differently. My kids, simply have never been exposed to someone who never finished high school. They actually LIKE school. We've had to deal with plenty of "issues" pertaining to their environment, however, I can't imagine coming up against something so challenging that the best outcome would be to quit!!!!









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I am not sure I am understanding you....as far as I see it, parents can do a whole lot ranging from looking for a different school to homeschooling the kid. As I stated earlier I did drop out of HS and I really feel that if my parents had been more proactive instead of saying go to work if you aren't in school that it would have made a difference.

I am also speaking as the mother of a 17 yo son and while I can't force my kid to do anything at his age, based off the way he has been raised, I find that we can often find a middle ground on just about any issue. If he were inclined to drop out which he is not I suspect we would be able to find a common ground that would work for both of us.

I just think there is a whole lot of space between go to school or else and forcing the kid to go. Teenagers may stand on the cusp of adulthood but as I am reminded of at times with my own son, he is not an adult and its my job to help facilitate a healthy landing into adulthood.

Shay

I totally agree with this

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Ah - gotcha. Another school wasn't an option back then, as we had strict catchments. In any case, I encountered kids from other schools who knew all about me, so I don't think another school would have helped much, even if they'd been allowed to transfer me. A school with no other students, no teachers and no administrative staff might have worked...as long as there was a big library and a helpful librarian.









Homeschooling, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't even legal here when I finished school...and support and resources, especially for high school level subjects, would have been _very_ hard to find.

I'm totally missing the point here. There was no middle ground with my _parents_ involved. I knew my mom wanted me to graduate. She knew I hated school. I did, in fact, graduate, but there was nothing she could have done that would have made school even remotely tolerable.

Five years of high school wasn't a "healthy" anything for me, or for quite a few other people I know/knew. It was soul-destroying and tremendously emotionally damaging, and I'm _still_, at 40, experiencing negative ripples from those years.

Education is a privelage. So many people wish they could be educated in other countries and we take it for granted. People should be thankful that school is available to them especially within my community so many kids take it for granted that our anscetors fought for equal education and won. Once something good is gone then would people miss it?? I think so

I also notice Storm Bride that you keep talking about what went on with you in your family and how you dealt with things BUT everyones family is not like yours nor did people experience what you did so I don't think people are making these decisions of making sure their kids finish school because of your experiences but because it is right for THEIR family. What is right for some is not right for all.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Five years of high school wasn't a "healthy" anything for me, or for quite a few other people I know/knew. It was soul-destroying and tremendously emotionally damaging, and I'm _still_, at 40, experiencing negative ripples from those years.

I can relate, believe me I can. High School really wasn't good for me either, I started high school having been a straight A student my whole life who in 3 years went from that to failing classes and cutting classes. In part I think its because I had to deal with class issues, being the poor Black kid at a well off predominantly white school really did a number on my self esteem.

Secondly, the teachers seemed like they didn't expect me to succeed and at that point in time my folks were not as involved as they could have been. I know every area is different but I know my folks were so caught up in the fact that I was accepted into one of the best schools in Chicago, no one realized it was a crappy match. Thankfully years later when my little brother was in the same boat, they were far more proactive. In the late 90's he actually had a teacher in HS who told him his dream of being an architect was not realistic







:. My folks by then having seen what bad teachers could do were on that situation quickly and long story short my now 28 yo brother is an architect.

So again, I do think parents can make a difference even in light of lousy teachers.

In the end I did find my path and it did end up including higher education despite having dropped out of HS but the road I walked was not easy and as a parent, I would hate to see either of my kids face the challenges I did for years when I was a HS dropout.

As for the emotional piece, well at 36 I still struggle with it but I am mostly over it so I do know well how HS can suck your soul dry. Yet the financial consequences alone at least for me are reason enough to finish, again in this time and day our kids have choices that many of us did not have. So its no longer a cut and dry you graduate or you don't.

Shay


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
Education is a privelage. So many people wish they could be educated in other countries and we take it for granted. People should be thankful that school is available to them especially within my community so many kids take it for granted that our anscetors fought for equal education and won. Once something good is gone then would people miss it?? I think so

If public education were gone, our society would certainly miss it. I wouldn't. I felt like I was abandoning ds1 to a torture chamber the first day I dropped him off for school (no idea if homeschooling was an option at that time or not, but I couldn't have done it and had no way to find out about it, anyway). DH and I have talked about moving the kids to school, instead of HS, for high school, but I'm far from decided on that.

We take it for granted, because it's not a "privilege". It's a _requirement_. If we want people to appreciate the privilege of being patronized, bullied, and treated like idiots, then maybe we shouldn't hammer it home that they _have no choice_. I any case, I have no problem with the idea that education is a privilege. I simply disagree that "education" is the same thing "going to school".

Quote:

I also notice Storm Bride that you keep talking about what went on with you in your family and how you dealt with things BUT everyones family is not like yours nor did people experience what you did so I don't think *people are making these decisions of making sure their kids finish school* because of your experiences but because it is right for THEIR family. What is right for some is not right for all.
What was right for my family - as in, my mom, who was the parent, which is who is talking on this thread - was that we all graduate from high school. That was the only option on the table. It still didn't happen. I was also, on paper, the _perfect_ candidate to do well in high school, so it's not like my mom or dad could have known that high school and I were going to be a mismatch of massive proportions. The whole reason I've talked about what happened with me is because of the incredible naivete of "they'll graduate, because it will be expected" and "they won't have any other option", etc. That _is_ the way things were in my family, and it's _not_ what happened. I hope you're all lucky enough to have "that's what's expected" be enough, and you'll all be able to go to your graves thinking I'm wrong.

The part of your quote that I bolded is the whole thing I'm arguing with. _Parents_ cannot make the decision that _their children_ finish high school. It's not up to us - it's up to them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
So again, I do think parents can make a difference even in light of lousy teachers.

I had a couple lousy teachers. I had one or two _exceptional_ teachers. Most of the rest were fine. It wasn't the teachers, I don't think. It was the curriculum, and the pace, and the entire setting. I never liked the social part of school very much, even at the elementary level, but it was in high school that the classroom became purgatory.

Anyway, I'm sure you're all right. My mom just didn't do it right. She should have...I have no idea what she should have done - have different kids, I suspect. Lousy teachers are only one part of the equation. High school just bites. DS1 is fortunately enjoying it, even though he's not getting a great education.


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If public education were gone, our society would certainly miss it. I wouldn't. I felt like I was abandoning ds1 to a torture chamber the first day I dropped him off for school (no idea if homeschooling was an option at that time or not, but I couldn't have done it and had no way to find out about it, anyway). DH and I have talked about moving the kids to school, instead of HS, for high school, but I'm far from decided on that.

We take it for granted, because it's not a "privilege". It's a _requirement_. If we want people to appreciate the privilege of being patronized, bullied, and treated like idiots, then maybe we shouldn't hammer it home that they _have no choice_. I any case, I have no problem with the idea that education is a privilege. I simply disagree that "education" is the same thing "going to school".

What was right for my family - as in, my mom, who was the parent, which is who is talking on this thread - was that we all graduate from high school. That was the only option on the table. It still didn't happen. I was also, on paper, the _perfect_ candidate to do well in high school, so it's not like my mom or dad could have known that high school and I were going to be a mismatch of massive proportions. The whole reason I've talked about what happened with me is because of the incredible naivete of "they'll graduate, because it will be expected" and "they won't have any other option", etc. That _is_ the way things were in my family, and it's _not_ what happened. I hope you're all lucky enough to have "that's what's expected" be enough, and you'll all be able to go to your graves thinking I'm wrong.

The part of your quote that I bolded is the whole thing I'm arguing with. _Parents_ cannot make the decision that _their children_ finish high school. It's not up to us - it's up to them.

I agree also that it is not considered a privilege ANYMORE but it is a privilege no matter what. But not all schools are the same, not all are patronizing, bullying nor treated like idiots but some may be otherwise I don't think you would be sending your ds into an environment like that. Yeah I agree that education is so not the same as going to school because people can go to school and not learn a darn thing but then the problems that child is having needs to be addressed.

I am going to homeschool my children up to a certain point then they will be going to school and if they have any problems with going (once they go) then we will reasses what the options are and go from there. Its a lot more alternatives out there now.

Making sure your kid finishes school doesn't seem like a bad thing. I didn't say FORCE them to finish HIGH SCHOOL. I don't think its wrong with making sure your kids get a GED, do online school, homeschool because its very little you can do now without either a GED or diploma. It will be unacceptable if my child chooses to get neither of these because I don't want them making a choice they might regret and I want them to be able to live a life that doesn't include struggling to make ends meet.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
I agree also that it is not considered a privilege ANYMORE but it is a privilege no matter what. But not all schools are the same, not all are patronizing, bullying nor treated like idiots but some may be otherwise I don't think you would be sending your ds into an environment like that.

I _have_ sent my ds1 into an environment like that. He's not being bullied (partly, I think, because it just rolls off his back, so there's no "reward" for the bully), but bullying still goes on. The schools are every bit as patronizing as they were when I went through, but ds1 is a completely different person than I was/am. It doesn't bother him in the same way. Actually, it rarely bothers him at all - occasional flare-ups of irritation, but that's about it.

Quote:

Yeah I agree that education is so not the same as going to school because people can go to school and not learn a darn thing but then the problems that child is having needs to be addressed.
I agree that the problems need to be addressed, however it's not always easy - or even possible - to figure out how to address them.

Quote:

Making sure your kid finishes school doesn't seem like a bad thing. I didn't say FORCE them to finish HIGH SCHOOL. I don't think its wrong with making sure your kids get a GED, do online school, homeschool because its very little you can do now without either a GED or diploma. It will be unacceptable if my child chooses to get neither of these because I don't want them making a choice they might regret and I want them to be able to live a life that doesn't include struggling to make ends meet.
I don't know if I'm not being clear or if people just disagree with me.

It's fine that it would be unacceptable for your children to choose not to get any kind of diploma or GED. It's fine that you want to make sure your kids get a GED, do online school or homeschool. My point is that you _can't_ ensure that they do any of those things. You can do your best, but it's _not up to you_. It's up to them. If they decide they're not going to finish high school, you can't make them. I don't know why this point seems to be so hard to understand, or if you all just have some secret parenting trick to ensure graduation, and you don't want to share it.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I won't support dd financially if she drops out of school. I don't know how you can force a child to stay in school if they don't want to be there but I will not be making dropping out an enjoyable alternative. I would work with dd to find a better school fit if that is what she needs though. I didn't do well in regular school but I thrived in an alternative school and went on to college after that.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rebeccajo* 
I dropped out of high school and got my GED. If my kids don't want to finish high school, I won't force them. I will encourage them to get a GED, but I'm not going to force them to do that either.

Same as this. High school just wasn't right for me. School in general just wasn't right for me. I didn't care much for most of elem. school, I was just bored most of the time, middle school was awful and I'm so glad I was homeschooled for most of it, and high school (public and homeschooling through a Charter school) was awful as well. By the middle of my sophomore year, I was done. Done, done, done, done, done. I convinced my parents to let me just unschool (it really didn't take much convincing, my mom had ideas about school that were very similar to mine), spend a couple of years doing that, started going to college classes when I was 17 (I don't have a degree or anything), and I make more than about 80% of people my age now, and more than many, many people who are older.

I do NOT equate school with success. Never have, never will. I LOVE learning. School just hindered learning in all of the years I won't, and I will never force my children to go through that. I also will not punish them for not wanting to be miserable. I will encourage them every step of the way to do good in school, get good jobs, etc...but I will never say "Finish school or I'm not supporting you anymore". I see many people have said that on this thread, would you really kick your child to the street at 15/16?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
I mean you can't do anything without a diploma or GED these days and soon without a little college education.

See my above paragraph, there's plenty of doors open to people without a college education. _Plenty_.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitfulmomma* 
.
Now we both have views on education that are so far removed from the typical school situation that this question is actually totally moot for us.

This, too. I don't view school the way most people do.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
I agree also that it is not considered a privilege ANYMORE but it is a privilege no matter what. But not all schools are the same, not all are patronizing, bullying nor treated like idiots but some may be otherwise I don't think you would be sending your ds into an environment like that. Yeah I agree that education is so not the same as going to school because people can go to school and not learn a darn thing but then the problems that child is having needs to be addressed.


Education is now only considered a privilege in the US and a few other countries globally. The rest of the world considers it a child's right, as established in the UN convention on the rights of the child.
Not all schools are like that, no, but excellent schools can fail individual students too. I had an incident last year with my eldest son being bullied (in an outstanding school) where it's taken nearly a year for him to heal. Every child will have a different experience of school, because they are all individuals, and all have different needs. That's one of the most important things for us to know, as parents and as advocates.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't know if I'm not being clear or if people just disagree with me.

It's fine that it would be unacceptable for your children to choose not to get any kind of diploma or GED. It's fine that you want to make sure your kids get a GED, do online school or homeschool. My point is that you _can't_ ensure that they do any of those things. You can do your best, but it's _not up to you_. It's up to them. If they decide they're not going to finish high school, you can't make them. I don't know why this point seems to be so hard to understand, or if you all just have some secret parenting trick to ensure graduation, and you don't want to share it.

I get what you're saying completely. I think a lot of people are missing it. Your child can drag, drag, drag until they hit 18 if they want, and at that point, you can do nothing about it. There's really nothing you can do to make your child finish school, if they don't want to. If they're struggling and need help, then sure. If they're done with it, then no.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

I can't imagine that many 16 year-olds who want to stop going to school were having a lovely time up until that age. Why wait until they are threatening to drop out to deal with it? Many say their kids could do online classes or otherwise learn at home so why wait until they're totally burnt out? If it's the success and happiness of your child that is important you will find them a better option sooner, not later.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't know if I'm not being clear or if people just disagree with me.

It's fine that it would be unacceptable for your children to choose not to get any kind of diploma or GED. It's fine that you want to make sure your kids get a GED, do online school or homeschool. My point is that you _can't_ ensure that they do any of those things. You can do your best, but it's _not up to you_. It's up to them. If they decide they're not going to finish high school, you can't make them. I don't know why this point seems to be so hard to understand, or if you all just have some secret parenting trick to ensure graduation, and you don't want to share it.

I think you're being clear, but perhaps people don't understand. You can force a person to go to school, but what's the point if they don't learn? If they fail? If it totally destroys the relationship that you have with them? What's the point if they get to college and drink their entire freshmen year ('hey, everyone does it'...because they don't know what the heck they are doing there!) Every time I attend a high school graduation ceremony, I'm saddened by the speeches. Every child who talks will say something about changing the future (generica graduation speech) and then a joke about being 'free'. I don't ever want my kids to be in a situation where they feel that they have to jump through hoops to attain freedom to be happy.

What if a parent made the alternative to school so negative that the child says 'fine' and moves out. What's accomplished there? The streets are full of kids who've run away from home, and it's not a particular circumstance, but the entire idea that their parents don't understand them, won't support them (emotionally, forget finances altogether) I've also posted previously about people without degrees who are financially successful. I also posted about lots of people WITH degrees who are NOT financially secure, and don't have jobs in their fields. A degree, high school OR college, guarantees nothing without freedom, passion and desire. In fact, schools teach you that you're only jumping through hoops to get to the next hoop, even once you have a career you're jumping through NEW hoops to make more money or get a promotion. Your whole life becomes a circus act.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I will allow my kids to drop out of graduate school but that's about it.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
I will allow my kids to drop out of graduate school but that's about it.

I don't think it's really "allowing" at that point, how would you stop them in the first place?


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 
I don't think it's really "allowing" at that point, how would you stop them in the first place?

It was a joke. A friend of mine tells her 15 year old that she isn't allowed to date until she gets her masters degree. All a joke.

As for forcing them. eh. I tend to believe that kids that want to discontinue their education, even with overwhelming evidence that it will fu** them for life, have a good reason. I'd work with that child to figure out what is going on and try to find an alternate solution that resulted in a diploma or GED.

I don't buy StormBride's assertion that her sibs are on the street because her parents said a hs diploma was non-negotiable. In fact, I think that just proves there is something else going on that causes one to drop out.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

I don't think folks are dense. By the time a child is 16, everyone knows you can't really physically make him/her do anything. All you can do is everything feasible within your power to get your child a hs degree or equivalency or do any other thing that is a better option (birth control/condoms, healthy eating/dieting, choosing the right friends).

At 16, my parents' expectations of me still weighed heavily on my mind and I knew their stories of education: taking them from dirt poor villages in Nigeria to places they couldn't ever have imagined. I think realistic expectations coupled with the appropriate help and support to help the child meet them is extremely powerful in terms of "forcing" a child. That is the power we wield as parents. In terms of being AP, we set our realistic, age-appropriate standards and help our children reach them in whatever ways we can. We bend over backwards. We get creative. We get our game face on.

I'd like the experience of schooling to be as pleasant as possible for my children and will work with them to ensure that. I'd love them to attend a high school whose philosophies match mine but I'm not opposed to homeschooling them straight through or doing whatever they need me to do so they can achieve.

Based on what I know, as a woman of color raising two boys, as the child of two people whose education is *the reason* why I'm sitting _here_ typing this, I will in no uncertain terms let them know, show and demonstrate what a life without that document can and often does look like.







:


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

I would do everything in my power to keep my kid in school, be it private school, hiring a tutor, allowing them to homeschool/take college courses, go to a charter school... anything. I think it's very important to get a diploma and to go to college. I really can't think of a good reason to NOT get your GED or diploma. It isn't particularly hard and it IS very limiting to a person's career potential if you don't bother.

It was never even an option to not finish school and to go college. THe only kids I knew who dropped out were 'losers', druggies, burnouts, or knocked up.. no one that I was comfortable surrounding myself with when I was a teenager. I want better than that for my kids. They aren't just going to sit around not learning anything. Heck, I'd send them to military school if it came to that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 
I don't buy StormBride's assertion that her sibs are on the street because her parents said a hs diploma was non-negotiable.

Excuse me? Where did I say that my sibs are on the street, or that they're there because my mom expected us to graduate?? I said neither.

My sister was on the street for a while as a teenager. She isn't now. My brother never was.

I never said that she was there _because_ my mom expected us to graduate. The fact remains that my mom did expect us to graduate, but I'm the only one who did so. I also had (and my sibs both admit it) the most hellish high school experience of the three of us.

I was more afraid of the street than my sister was, and unable to just get a job moving furniture like my brother. I'm also bullheaded, and wasn't going to give the bullies _or_ the teachers the satisfaction of watching me drop out. Those are the reasons I graduated. My mom's expectations had little or nothing to do with it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca* 
I would do everything in my power to keep my kid in school, be it private school, hiring a tutor, allowing them to homeschool/take college courses, go to a charter school... anything. I think it's very important to get a diploma and to go to college. I really can't think of a good reason to NOT get your GED or diploma. It isn't particularly hard and it IS very limiting to a person's career potential if you don't bother.

It wasn't particularly hard for _you_. I'm not you. My sister wasn't you. Several of my friends weren't you. Getting through to graduation was probably the hardest thing I've personally ever done. I don't even know why I bothered, as I don't feel as though I got a damned thing out of it. I never wanted a "career" - still don't. I put myself through absolute hell for no good reason at all. If I could go back and redo my horrible first marriage, I probably wouldn't, because I got a sweet payoff - the privilege of being ds1's mom. I got no payoff for high school - nothing at all.

Quote:

It was never even an option to not finish school and to go college. THe only kids I knew who dropped out were 'losers',

<snip>

druggies, burnouts, or knocked up.. no one that I was comfortable surrounding myself with when I was a teenager. I want better than that for my kids.
I want better for my son than to have him dismiss people who are, quite probably, struggling with issues he's never had to face as "losers". To each their own.

(Oh - and, fwiw, the one woman in my grad class who got "knocked up" at an early age - just after grad, so enough to get in the way of her post-secondary education, if not high school - was a high-performance academic student, a jock _and_ active on the student council. I didn't particularly like her, actually, but she certainly wasn't the sort of person that generally gets written off as "a loser I wasn't comfortable surrounding myself with".)


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

One thing I'm noticing in this 'discussion' is that the question was "would you force your kids to finish high school?" Then it seems that the definition of high school was never quite set out.

In my mind, the term high school was an actual brick-and-mortar building where kids are handed a curriculum, regardless of interest or ability, and told to work through it. Which is why I stated that my son didn't finish fourth grade, because we started homeschooling at his request.

But then people are pulling out homeschooling, unschooling, GEDs, jucos, etc and saying that they WOULD force their kids to finish. How is that 'forcing them to finish' high school? If they get their GED at 16, as opposed to graduating high school at 18, what additional knowledge are they achieving? I don't see what the difference is between saying my kid has the ability to choose finishing high school or some other thing, or, if my kid didn't like high school then we'd work on an alternative.

KWIM?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 
One thing I'm noticing in this 'discussion' is that the question was "would you force your kids to finish high school?" Then it seems that the definition of high school was never quite set out.

In my mind, the term high school was an actual brick-and-mortar building where kids are handed a curriculum, regardless of interest or ability, and told to work through it. Which is why I stated that my son didn't finish fourth grade, because we started homeschooling at his request.

But then people are pulling out homeschooling, unschooling, GEDs, jucos, etc and saying that they WOULD force their kids to finish. How is that 'forcing them to finish' high school? If they get their GED at 16, as opposed to graduating high school at 18, what additional knowledge are they achieving? I don't see what the difference is between saying my kid has the ability to choose finishing high school or some other thing, or, if my kid didn't like high school then we'd work on an alternative.

KWIM?

I interpreted the question to mean "Would you 'force' your kids to continue their education until they achieved a high school diploma or equivalent?" I didn't think it was limited to attending a physical building daily.


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Ananas you said:
See my above paragraph, there's plenty of doors open to people without a college education. _Plenty_.

I don't know what you are seeing with my post but I said that there is not much you can do without a diploma or GED. I said SOON there won't be many options open without some type college degree (associates, certificates, trades etc.). I don't think you have to go to college to be successful because I never said that but I think you should get a diploma or GED.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca* 
They aren't just going to sit around not learning anything. Heck, I'd send them to military school if it came to that.


Not even really sure where to begin with this post, but I want to reply to the last two sentences.

One: I learned WAY more the minute I decided to unschool than I had the entire time I was staring at textbooks, totally uninterested and not learning anything at ALL.

Two: If my only option once I decided I was done with school had been military school...I don't know what I would have done, but suicide definitely danced around in my head when you mentioned that. I would have felt absolutely stuck, like there was no way out, and for many people, me included, that's the worst feeling there is. There are more important things than school.


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta* 
I don't think folks are dense. By the time a child is 16, everyone knows you can't really physically make him/her do anything. All you can do is everything feasible within your power to get your child a hs degree or equivalency or do any other thing that is a better option (birth control/condoms, healthy eating/dieting, choosing the right friends).

At 16, my parents' expectations of me still weighed heavily on my mind and I knew their stories of education: taking them from dirt poor villages in Nigeria to places they couldn't ever have imagined. I think realistic expectations coupled with the appropriate help and support to help the child meet them is extremely powerful in terms of "forcing" a child. That is the power we wield as parents. In terms of being AP, we set our realistic, age-appropriate standards and help our children reach them in whatever ways we can. We bend over backwards. We get creative. We get our game face on.

I'd like the experience of schooling to be as pleasant as possible for my children and will work with them to ensure that. I'd love them to attend a high school whose philosophies match mine but I'm not opposed to homeschooling them straight through or doing whatever they need me to do so they can achieve.

Based on what I know, as a woman of color raising two boys, as the child of two people whose education is *the reason* why I'm sitting _here_ typing this, I will in no uncertain terms let them know, show and demonstrate what a life without that document can and often does look like.







:

Beautiful post, you put it better than I have been trying to. This exactly what I have been trying to say. Thank you for putting this so eloquently


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## futurmama8 (Aug 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 
Not even really sure where to begin with this post, but I want to reply to the last two sentences.

One: I learned WAY more the minute I decided to unschool than I had the entire time I was staring at textbooks, totally uninterested and not learning anything at ALL.

Two: If my only option once I decided I was done with school had been military school...I don't know what I would have done, but suicide definitely danced around in my head when you mentioned that. I would have felt absolutely stuck, like there was no way out, and for many people, me included, that's the worst feeling there is. There are more important things than school.

suicide?? I don't think anything is that bad. I'm thinking that was a joke at least I hope it was. It has to be easier to finish high school then to end your own life.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rootzdawta* 
I don't think folks are dense. By the time a child is 16, everyone knows you can't really physically make him/her do anything. All you can do is everything feasible within your power to get your child a hs degree or equivalency or do any other thing that is a better option (birth control/condoms, healthy eating/dieting, choosing the right friends).

At 16, my parents' expectations of me still weighed heavily on my mind and I knew their stories of education: taking them from dirt poor villages in Nigeria to places they couldn't ever have imagined. I think realistic expectations coupled with the appropriate help and support to help the child meet them is extremely powerful in terms of "forcing" a child. That is the power we wield as parents. In terms of being AP, we set our realistic, age-appropriate standards and help our children reach them in whatever ways we can. We bend over backwards. We get creative. We get our game face on.

I'd like the experience of schooling to be as pleasant as possible for my children and will work with them to ensure that. I'd love them to attend a high school whose philosophies match mine but I'm not opposed to homeschooling them straight through or doing whatever they need me to do so they can achieve.

Based on what I know, as a woman of color raising two boys, as the child of two people whose education is *the reason* why I'm sitting _here_ typing this, I will in no uncertain terms let them know, show and demonstrate what a life without that document can and often does look like.







:









: Can I just add that the world does not offer as many opportunities to POC who drop out of school and I speak from experience. I dropped out, got married right away and had my eldest. It was after that marriage ended and I had to provide for my self and my child that I realized how limited my world was.... I suppose had my first marriage worked maybe I would have never gone back to school (wasn't in love with school) but working 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet and seeing folks who I was as smart as be my boss but they had degrees was really the motivating factor.

I think you can be very loving and AP and still get the point across that dropping out is not an option.

Shay


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

You stay at home while in school or in real need. If you decide to drop out, fine, but you have to get a job and help pay the bills. Doesn't matter the age (well... no... not true... if you stay in past age 22 or whatever, then you need to help out regardless of student status).

I would not be disappointed if my child left school temporarily to pursue another productive activity. I would make it clear that I would help her get a GED or get into community college or a trade college if she wanted. I WOULD be disappointed if she just dropped out because she did not want to work that hard at it and I would not support someone just sitting around to "find herself". You don't find yourself doing nothing. But if she was writing letters to publishers or art houses every day, that would be different.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm still astonished at how many people say that not graduating "isn't an option" for their kids (or that it wasn't for themselves). Short of chaining a kid to a desk, how does anybody propose to prevent a child from dropping out?

That was me who said that.

Not sure what the answer is, other than raising kids with expectations and options. Somehow, my parents conveyed that idea to me (dropping out is not an option). I think they did it by cultivating a culture of education in my house from the time I was very young.


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 
Not even really sure where to begin with this post, but I want to reply to the last two sentences.

One: I learned WAY more the minute I decided to unschool than I had the entire time I was staring at textbooks, totally uninterested and not learning anything at ALL.

Two: If my only option once I decided I was done with school had been military school...I don't know what I would have done, but suicide definitely danced around in my head when you mentioned that. I would have felt absolutely stuck, like there was no way out, and for many people, me included, that's the worst feeling there is. There are more important things than school.

What I meant is that I wouldn't exhaust my options, including military school, if it came to that to ensure my child get that piece of paper at the end. I would not say 'go to the traditional public high school or go to military school' and I'm sorry you read it that way. But you have to unschool yourself enough to pass that GED test. Just understanding the intricacies of how the universe was created is not enough, by society's standards.

I really believe that unless people like trying to survive on minimum wage that that stamp on the forehead at the end of about 12 years of some sort of schooling is important to open some doors. I realize that there are a few prodigies who are self-motivating enough to thrive in the business world, but really, if most drop-outs were that self-motivated, why the heck couldn't they do the minimum requirements necessary to get a GED? High school requirements are not that difficult to achieve. People with below-average intelligence and those who are learning disabled are able to graduate- with honors! It's not that school is too hard. There are enough choices and opportunites for ALL children to finish 'school' if given the right support, which I intend to do for my child. Not having that piece of paper is extremely limiting. Further, choosing a college degree program without a career goal in mind is also limiting (says the 'nutritional sciences major' who didn't complete her RD after getting her BS and doing some grad school).

Now if he runs off to join the circus, not much I can do about that. But as long as they're living here, education is important and I expect them to do the best they can. It's not just the information that is important for them to learn by staying in 'school'. It's how to study, how to retain information, how to persevere and work toward a goal and how NOT to just give up a challenge because of (insert any excuse right here).


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## Rebecca (Dec 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
I'm still astonished at how many people say that not graduating "isn't an option" for their kids (or that it wasn't for themselves). Short of chaining a kid to a desk, how does anybody propose to prevent a child from dropping out?.

You prevent a child from dropping out by cultivating an environment of learning. As a parent, you let your kids see you reading, maybe taking classes yourself (because you're never too old to learn something new), watching 'educational' tv programs with your child and talking about it (we happen to like 'How It Works'). You take them to cultural events and museums. You take them to a soup kitchen and homeless shelter to volunteer. You offer them lessons in whatever it is that they're interested in. You help them with homework, and if you don't know the answer, you work with them to figure it out. Take them to the library and show them how to do research (the old fashioned way). Hire a tutor or get extra help if they need it. When they're in high school, tour colleges together. Talk to college students. Surround yourself with 'successful' people, whatever you consider successful to be and talk to them about what they do and how they got where they are. Make sure your child has 'jobs' so they know what it's like to earn a little bit of money. They'll really appreciate what it is to earn a comfortable living after that. Ask your child questions and really listen when they answer. They need to know that they matter and what they say is important. If they are having trouble in school, work with the school to reach a resolution, or find them a different way to learn (distance learning online courses?). If they're hanging out with a 'bad' crowd, and you know what I mean, work with them to see if your child really wants to live a life of hardship. I can't imagine they would if they are shown different options.

Storm Bride, you had a really bad experience. Lots of us did in public high school. Your child doesn't have to. I think it's important for every person to be self-sufficient and to do that, we have to learn some skills. I think it's really important to put your experiences on the shelf and start fresh with new eyes. Your child loves school right now. Go with it, and show him your enthusiasm for what he's doing. He'll know that education is important.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca* 
You prevent a child from dropping out by cultivating an environment of learning. As a parent, you let your kids see you reading, maybe taking classes yourself (because you're never too old to learn something new), watching 'educational' tv programs with your child and talking about it (we happen to like 'How It Works'). You take them to cultural events and museums. You take them to a soup kitchen and homeless shelter to volunteer. You offer them lessons in whatever it is that they're interested in. You help them with homework, and if you don't know the answer, you work with them to figure it out. Take them to the library and show them how to do research (the old fashioned way). Hire a tutor or get extra help if they need it. When they're in high school, tour colleges together. Talk to college students. Surround yourself with 'successful' people, whatever you consider successful to be and talk to them about what they do and how they got where they are. Make sure your child has 'jobs' so they know what it's like to earn a little bit of money. They'll really appreciate what it is to earn a comfortable living after that. Ask your child questions and really listen when they answer. They need to know that they matter and what they say is important. If they are having trouble in school, work with the school to reach a resolution, or find them a different way to learn (distance learning online courses?). If they're hanging out with a 'bad' crowd, and you know what I mean, work with them to see if your child really wants to live a life of hardship. I can't imagine they would if they are shown different options.


I think what you are saying is so important. Looking back on my own life its the stuff my own parents didn't do but the stuff I have done with my 17 yo son.

I started school when he was probably 7 or 8 and for most of his childhood he has seen me in school. When I did my master thesis presentation a few years ago, I brought him with me. He was 13 or 14 at the time and while he was bored he still talks about it.

I really feel like because I did these things its made a difference for my son, he just turned 17 and he is starting all the college prep stuff which when I was his age I wasn't doing. Again I can't help wondering if my own folks had done these things would it have made a difference. My folks would say we want you to graduate and go to college but I never felt like that did the things a parent should do to help facilitate that process.

I think as parents its important not to let our own experiences overshadow our kids lives if that makes any sense.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 
Two: If my only option once I decided I was done with school had been military school...I don't know what I would have done, but suicide definitely danced around in my head when you mentioned that.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
suicide?? I don't think anything is that bad. I'm thinking that was a joke at least I hope it was. It has to be easier to finish high school then to end your own life.

No joke. I had the same thought when I read that post.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rebecca* 
You prevent a child from dropping out by cultivating an environment of learning. As a parent, you let your kids see you reading, maybe taking classes yourself (because you're never too old to learn something new), watching 'educational' tv programs with your child and talking about it (we happen to like 'How It Works'). You take them to cultural events and museums. You take them to a soup kitchen and homeless shelter to volunteer. You offer them lessons in whatever it is that they're interested in. You help them with homework, and if you don't know the answer, you work with them to figure it out. Take them to the library and show them how to do research (the old fashioned way).

Yeah - except for the soup kitchen thing, my parents did _all_ that.

Quote:

Make sure your child has 'jobs' so they know what it's like to earn a little bit of money.
...and did their best with that.

Quote:

Storm Bride, you had a really bad experience. Lots of us did in public high school. Your child doesn't have to. I think it's important for every person to be self-sufficient and to do that, we have to learn some skills. I think it's really important to put your experiences on the shelf and start fresh with new eyes. Your child loves school right now. Go with it, and show him your enthusiasm for what he's doing. He'll know that education is important.
My son is just fine. He has more enthusiasm in his little finger - for learning, and for life - than most kids his age (that I've met, anyway) have in their whole bodies. He's talking right now about what he wants to do for post-secondary...although having some trouble planning because there are so _many_ things he'd like to do. He's frustrated by stupid requirements for grad and by all the pointless hoop-jumping, but it doesn't even slow him down.

I have no new eyes. I see the same old crap I saw 20+ years ago. My son has the personality to navigate it. I'm happy for him. (He also knows that we consider education important, even if I'm not "enthusiastic" about school.) That doesn't change the fact that there are other kids, just like me, who are still falling through the cracks, because _they_ don't have what it takes to get through school in one piece. This isn't about my son - it's about blanket statements about how to make it work.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I think what you are saying is so important. Looking back on my own life its the stuff my own parents didn't do but the stuff I have done with my 17 yo son.

I started school when he was probably 7 or 8 and for most of his childhood he has seen me in school. When I did my master thesis presentation a few years ago, I brought him with me. He was 13 or 14 at the time and while he was bored he still talks about it.

I really feel like because I did these things its made a difference for my son, he just turned 17 and he is starting all the college prep stuff which when I was his age I wasn't doing. Again I can't help wondering if my own folks had done these things would it have made a difference. My folks would say we want you to graduate and go to college but I never felt like that did the things a parent should do to help facilitate that process.

I think as parents its important not to let our own experiences overshadow our kids lives if that makes any sense.

And, fwiw...my parents (mom, at least) did way more of that kind of thing than I ever have. Nonetheless, I was crashing and burning long before I reached the point that ds1 is at. By grade 9, my graduation was in doubt. DS1 is halfway through grade 10, and my only question is whether or not he'll be on the honour roll or not.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *futurmama8* 
suicide?? I don't think anything is that bad. I'm thinking that was a joke at least I hope it was. It has to be easier to finish high school then to end your own life.

My husband has counseled the family and friends of several young people who have taken their own lives. It is no joke at all. When people feel stuck, and hopeless, some of them may contemplate or attempt suicide. That's why I think as parents it is so important to be compassionate and really listen with our hearts to what our children are telling us about their lives.

I agree with Shay, that education is very important but we also need to communicate with our children when they are struggling and look for solutions that are agreeable to the whole family.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

No, I wouldn't "force" them. How could I even do that? I would encourage them to get their GED's...but they will do what they think is best for them.


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## mouthcave (Oct 9, 2008)

No, I wouldn't force him.
I dropped out of high school and force of any kind would have been unbearable at the time. The approach I would take with my son if he said he wanted to leave school would depend on his reasons. Not every situation is the same so of course they can't have the same solutions.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

When I was in high school, I don't think I even knew that you *could* drop out of high school. (For the record, I didn't want to---I wasn't much of a shining star socially, but I had a few good friends and my classes/teachers were mostly decent and interesting.) Maybe it was me being naive, maybe it was socioeconomics, but I did not personally know a single person who dropped out of high school. I think that's what a lot of previous posters mean by being raised to not consider it as an option. If everyone around you is encouraging and achieving, dropping out becomes not only unattractive but kind of unfathomable.


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