# Religious Descrimination as related to Motherhood/Nannying.



## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

My feelings are so hurt right now. I don't know if I'm more pissed off or if I just want to cry.

I have very few friends here because I'm an at-home mom who doesn't get out much. I've been developing a friendship with my neighbor who has a 12-month-old little girl. We've always gotten along.

She approached me and asked me to nanny her little girl 5 days a week for $400 a month, which is really a bargain in our city, and I said yes. I've been just so excited about it, not just so we can have some extra money, but so the kids can socialize, so I can get used to having two babies, and because I'd love some girl time.

She said she thinks I'm a very good mother, that she can see that in my interactions with my son, and that she'd much rather her daughter be with me than in daycare. That made me feel very good.

Today, she and I were talking, and she was telling me her church needs nursery volunteers. I asked if they'd have a problem with me not being Christian. She asked "What are you?" and I told her I was Pagan.

They just freaked. Their faces looked like they had just discovered a terrorist. She told me she has a huge problem with that with this look of shock and appallment on her face. I told them I'd be happy to explain what I believe, and I did.

They started lecturing me, questioning my faith, etc. I tried to remain calm and polite, just answer honestly but without being offensive. She brought her brother down, who claims to know more about it because he's read so much. I tried to tell them that I'd studied this for ten years and know plenty about it. They started reading me book quotes, asking me to read up on these books, basically so I'd come back to Christianity. I'm very secure in my beliefs. One day I may find Christianity is my path again, but that's NOT the way I want to find it. Anyway, they pretty much interrogated me for like half an hour, and I was so nervous and uncomfortable. I was afraid I was losing a friend as well as a job over my religion, which hasn't ever happened to me before. I know it's because she doesn't know much about it...though they seem to think that they do...but I'm so hurt. They kept lecturing me about how Protestantism broke away from Catholicism...as if I didn't already know, considering they taught me that in like ninth grade. Her brother was telling me a high school diploma means squat these days and pretty much that I have no education. He asked me why I felt it was necessary to worship the Earth... which I don't.

I left with a book and a broken-heart. She said she'll get back to me about nannying. They weren't trying to be mean, but it seemed very rude. I tried to tell her it isn't going to affect how I watch her daughter. I'm not going to change her diaper in some Pagan way, talk about Yule to her, or pray to the Goddess with her. She said "Yeah but it's such a huge difference of religion, and it affects how you live your life. I have to think about it." I told her we probably agree on most things, that it affects my life really just by me respecting nature and being nice to people, and that I don't often make religious references because I feel religion is a personal thing. I just don't see how my having a different relationship would affect my ability to give her daughter a bottle of milk. If I'm such a good mother then it shouldn't matter, right? It's not like Paganism is contagious, I have Earth mama cooties, and I'm going to convert her. I mean, I sure as heck wouldn't do to her or anyone what she just did to me. She said it's more about her needing to follow her religion in every way of life, including who watches her kid...and I just fail to see how leaving your child with someone of a different faith a few hours a day is going to go against Catholicism? Especially when it's a person who is very quiet about their religion and believes about thes ame as you do about how to live life... (Any Catholics who want to explain this to me... please do so.)

So, I'm sorry. I just needed a place to vent and get some advice. I don't know what to do. Part of me wants to just smile and nod and pretend I agree with them, kind of hide my faith a bit so I don't lose a friend...and another prat of me wants to march back over there with this book, tell them that I know a lot more than they give me credit for, that I'm not Pagan cuz of my age, that I'm not a bad person, that it was rude to do thta to me, that I don't appreciate it, and that I have no desire to be their friend or nanny if they are going to treat me like an ignorant devil-worshipper. I'm just so torn. I have no friends, and now i'm losing one because I have a different belief system.


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

x-post!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=1#post5823603


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

That's ok. It was my fault!

I've never felt religious descrimination like this, and it really stings. I've dealt with shock, curiosity, ignorance, rude comments...but I've never dealt with anything near as bad as this.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

I am so sorry you are dealing with a situation like this. Discrimination hurts, no matter what.

Here is my advice to you, and I know you are going through a hard time with this on an emotional level, so please forgive me if this sounds insensitive. It is not meant to be.

1. I think you were setting yourself up to be taken advantage of in the first place with this arrangement. $400 a month is not enough money to pay for a full-time nanny. I know you were looking forward to the opportunity but believe me this is not the only family around looking for afforable child care. (If I could have a AP-practicing next-door living nanny for under $100 a week I would be back at work so fast your head would spin







)

2. I think that if the parents are not comfortable with a non-Christian nanny, then nothing you do will satisfy them. Now you are working full time, for about $2 an hour, and you get to feel like you are not "good enough" because of your religion. That sounds like a raw deal to me.

3. Also, I am pretty sure that in situations like yours, there often isn't really much of an understanding that can be reached, except to just not discuss the topic of religion. They probably think that you have made a very dangerous and unwise decision by not embracing the Christian faith, and since it is unlikely that either of you will change your minds, you need to make it clear that the topic is not up for discussion.

Well, that's my two cents anyway. What a rotten situation to be in. I am so sorry that you are dealing with religious discrimination and being evangelized to by your neighbors. I am sorry it looks like your opportunity to make some money and get some socialization for your child may have fallen through. I hope you will take my advice for what it's worth to you and then make your own decision about how to deal with this troubling ordeal.

And there are LOTS of nice, Pagan mamas here to find community with. And plenty of non-Pagan parents who have a sense of respect for other people's religions.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

See, she is (was?) my friend, so that's why I agreed to $400 even though it isn't much....and yeah I know I probably can't change their minds...but I almost feel like I don't even want to be friends with them after this. I need the money and the practice, but if they are going to lecture me all the time and expect me to Christianize myself... I donno. It just feels so ridiculous and wrong, and like I said, I'm REALLY hurt. I don't know where I can find another oppertunity to nanny. I don't know many people here, and I'm not a certified child care person or anything so... it feels like I've lost a friend, a job, and a playmate for my son.


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## pumpkin (Apr 8, 2003)

You should not have to hide your religion to have a friend or a job. I do believe that for the purpose of employment, religion just should not be discussed. There isn't any good way to avoid it becoming an issue.

When it comes to friendship, I've got friends of many religions. Many of these religions technically 'conflict' with one another. But friends respect the beliefs of the others in their lives. I would never, never try to convince a friend that they were in the wrong religion and I would not stay friends with someone who tried to change mine.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I wish I hadn't said anything, but that would have just been lying by omission. *sighs*


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
*See, she is (was?) my friend, so that's why I agreed to $400 even though it isn't much*....and yeah I know I probably can't change their minds...but I almost feel like I don't even want to be friends with them after this. I need the money and the practice, but if they are going to lecture me all the time and expect me to Christianize myself... I donno. It just feels so ridiculous and wrong, and like I said, I'm REALLY hurt. I don't know where I can find another oppertunity to nanny. I don't know many people here, and I'm not a certified child care person or anything so... it feels like I've lost a friend, a job, and a playmate for my son.


Oh, I totally understand about agreeing to the arrangement under the premise that it is your friend. I wasn't meaning to criticize you for that. I don't blame you a bit for wanting to break off the friendship over this. How awkward for you to be in the middle of this. And how disappointing to lose the opportunity to work AND to have a playmate for your son on a regular basis. I would be hurt too


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkin*

When it comes to friendship, I've got friends of many religions. Many of these religions technically 'conflict' with one another. But friends respect the beliefs of the others in their lives. I would never, never try to convince a friend that they were in the wrong religion and I would not stay friends with someone who tried to change mine.

I agree with you.


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## Anglyn (Oct 25, 2004)

Think about how THey would feel if you, your dh and your brother attacked thier religion and spent half an hour telling them why they are wrong, why they need to change then basically insulting your intelligence (you dont need a college education to be educated, you can obviously read and comprehend and use critical thinking skills, more than they seem to be doing).

I would tell them flat out that no, they obviously do NOT understand your religion, and that what they did to you was rude and unacceptable. You are not attacking thier religion, life style, values, priorities, choices or beliefs, they have no right to attack yours.

Im so so sorry if you lose the job and a friend over this. But a true friend wouldnt stop being your friend just because you dont share thier religious views. Ive had friends ranging from catholics to jews to southern babtists, muslims, pagans, wiccans etc. and even an atheist or two! To me, its just fear, ignorance and prejuidice that makes one beleive that all others must conform to ONE set of beleifs. What is wrong with differing opinions, friendly exchange of ideas, respect for other cultures?

I do not understand those who try to shove thier ideas down everyones throat, its ironic to me because those are the people who are most offended when someone tries to do that to THEM.

This may not be right, but I just plain and simple never tell anyone my beleifs. Well, rarely. And this is why. I never would have told them or the church that I didnt have thier views. Just smile and nod. And I do see the value in thier religion and there are parts of it that are good. And if every christian followed the actual teachings of christ, wouldnt this be a wonderful world? But I know that you will never win an argument with this type of person, they are closed off from learning and knowledge. How sad that her brother feels college was it. He went to four years of college and learned all there is to learn, eh? Learning is a life long endevour. I distrust any religion, creed or belief system that discourages tolerance, openess, etc. I dont believe that God gave us thinking, anayltical minds and expects us to NOT use them. That's spitting in the face of the divine IMO.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I can't chose whether or not I'll get to nanny for her...but I know that if she does chose not to let me nanny, I don't know if I want to be her friend...and if she thinks I'm going to be her nanny on the condition that I'll seek Christian enlightenment, I don't really want to be her nanny or her friend. I'm not even sure I want to even consider nannying her kid or being her friend, either one, after that reaction.

I felt like one of those "out of the box" moms on Surviving Motherhood...so very educated, doing what's right for them, and yet being grilled by a bunch of ignorant mainstream moms who feel they MUST know more since they made a different decision. If it were her in a room of Pagans, I think she'd have been very uncomfortable. She was like "I don't want you to feel we're ganging up on you." I was like "*gawk* You, your mom, and your brother are in here interrogating me! Shaking your heads and looking sad for me and all!"

I shouldn't have even sat there and listened to it. I was hoping to save the friendship and job in explaining myself, but I don't know if it made a difference...and I shouldn't have been obligated to do it either. I should have just said "Look, you know what, you obviously do not understand my religion or know me at all, and if you think I believe what I do because I'm ignorant or young, you're sincerely mistaken. Having a different opinion doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid or naive...so bye."

And my poor kid was just crawling around trying to have a good time, and now they are looking at him like the poor sad savage little pagan boy that desperately needs saving from his heathen mother..and I was tempted to just be like "How dare you look at my son like that?" For a second I even FELT like he was the poor sweet good boy with the devil mother, and that's awful.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

Im sorry about this. I am Catholic and do not know any Catholics IRL who act like that. Maybe she is concerned about you not wanting to pray before meals? Catholics often say grace before meals, and maybe she is concerned that you will not encourage her to pray before meals? Or feed her child meat on Friday's during lent? Maybe you can ask her if there is something specific she is concerned about? Maybe she doesn't want you teaching her child about your religion? Your friend does not sound like any of the Catholic's I know.







We are taught to love and respect all people, and their beliefs while teaching others of our own. (never in a down your throat manner) Im really sorry you have to go through this, and loose a possible friend.







You guys really need a good hear to heart about what the problem is with you having a different set of beliefs. My best friend is Agnostic, My dad and Nana are Baptist, some cousins are Methodist, have some Jewish inlaws, many Catholic family members, etc. We all get along great. We embrace our similarities, instead of fighting about our differences, while respecting our differences.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I am so sorry you are going through this. What a shock!

To look for any silver lining - at least you know NOW how she feels before you started watching her child. It makes "breaking up" with her that much easier for both of you.

Also, while their dd may be wonderful, it may make you question whether your friend and her family are good influences for your ds to be around as he grows up.

I certainly would not want my kids to be around people who will not be respectful of my religious beliefs and who try to "convince" me I am wrong.

Basically, they sound like they were f***ing obnoxious to you and that they see nothing wrong with their behavior. Those are NOT the kind of people I'd want my kids around.

{hugs}

Siobhan
etc: I forgot you have a boy and not a girl!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

She had no problem when I JUST wasn't Catholic, and then suddenly I'm Pagan and she freaked. I told her I'll do as she wants with her kid; we'd reached that understanding long before this. I told her "Just let me know what to do/not to do." If she wants me to pray before meals, observe Lent with Arianna, etc., I definitely will. I think I should ask about specifics; I'll definitely ask. I told her I wouldn't teach my child about my religion. I think they are just sheltered and know very little about witchcraft, and what they have heard obviously wasn't learned in the right places.

And Siobhan, I totally agree. Even if we get over this, that they dd that to me, just in and of itself, is terrible and makes me really cautious about having Corbin anywhere near them. Corey is Christian! We want Corbn to be tolerate, to understand and accept people of all faiths. Not grill the first Buddhist he meets.

And ps...her daughter is only 12 months old!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Makes me, if they do decide not to let me nanny, just wanna decorate my yard and porch with Pagan stuff just to spite them. Hang up some pentacles and "Goddess bless you" signs. That'll show them eccentric!

And I rarely mention my beliefs either. It's personal. No one needs to know. And if they do, it usually just causes conflict. I shouldn't have even said anything.

Her bro is autistic and thinks he knows everything about everything, so much that she has to scold him to get him to hush. He's like in his 30s and lives with her and tries to preach things like "Cancer isn't a disease" and so on. He made all kinds of rude comments about how young I got started and everything when I first met him, and it's like he's not meaning to be a jerk but is succeeding anyway. Like, because I'm a stay-at-home mom who didn't go to college and doesn't need to read to know what I believe, I'm a moron.

Sorry. I've gone from almost wanting to cry to just being really pissed.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I want to add that I have found that some folks treat paganism and atheism differently than other religions -like they aren't "real" (well, atheism isn't a religion, per se, but you get my meaning).

I got a lecture a while back from a supposed friend out to "prove" that I really deep down believed in God and I was too arrogant or something to admit it. Pissed me off no end. I finally just cut him off by walking out of the room.

But I know this guy pretty well - if I were Jewish, he'd never even consider telling me that I was wrong about the divinity of Christ. Ditto Muslim or Buddist or whatever.

I don't think it is a good idea to hide your religious beliefs, though I tend not to be very open about mine unless someone actually asks or the conversation warrents it.

Siobhan


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It feels like that is exactly what they were doing, treating me like I don't have a real religion (despite the fact that Paganism covers not only Wicca but also buddhist, hinduisum, and other ones that they had very little issue with!). They told me the God of Abraham leaves a mark on every he tocuhes and never really leaves me, and they were trying to prove I was still Christian but just didn't want to or something... No, I believe in God, but I do NOT beleive Jesus was the son of God or that we burn eternally in Hell!

And that's how I am. I don't hide it, but I'm open about it. I only bring it up when conversation requires.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
Makes me, if they do decide not to let me nanny, just wanna decorate my yard and porch with Pagan stuff just to spite them. Hang up some pentacles and "Goddess bless you" signs. That'll show them eccentric!

heh, I have a pagan friend who loves dressing up in purple robes and walking to her unitarian church on holy days. Freaks out the neighbors.

It doesn't help that her son collects lizards and snakes as pets - which are notoriously hard to keep alive, so she is always disposing of dead ones in her trash or burying them in the back yard.

But in reality, she is a lovely middle class wife and mom working as a public health statistician.

Siobhan


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm not near "as Pagan" as some others. It's a really quiet, internal part of my life. I rarely "show it" outwardly except on the Sabbats. Mostly, I quietly think about how it relates to my life. I reflect on its teachings and how I can better live my life, rather than talking about it. I don't "dress Pagan" or "decorate Pagan" or "talk Pagan." It's just what I believe, not who I am.

I was telling him how we don't all believe the same thing, and they said that seems silly. They seem to have encountered some Pagans who were, well, weird possibly even 'bad.' I told him "Well, it's because Paganism applies to so many religions, and because so many belief systems are fighting over the name of Wicca. Plus, these beliefs come from many tribes, and they all had different beliefs." Sometimes I think it'd just be easier to call it something else with fewer negative conotations attached, like naturism or something. *sighs*


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
And that's how I am. I don't hide it, but I'm open about it. I only bring it up when conversation requires.

Good on ya. It is hard, especially when there are so many false assumptions and weird ideas floating around. I clammed up for a long time about my lack of belief in God. I've stopped doing that because it doesn't help anything in the long run. But it is tempting to just "go along to get along", as it were.

Hopefully your friend will eventually pry her mind open enough to actually LISTEN to you and maybe she'll see that Paganism has deep historical and religious significance.

Siobhan


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

In Mary Kay, the women are mostly Christian. They talk about god, send me inspirational emails, and describe MK as being "Mostly just a nice group of Christian women." I don't say anything. I accept that I'm a minority, and they are just trying to include me. And there's just no point in saying "Not me!" I mean, why? They don't need to know. Same with my other job, greeting. It's just not important. The only reason I mentioned it here is because we were talking about a church nursery so I knew it was relevant. I should have just said "No thanks" In a way I'm glad, because it if meants that much to them, I'd rather them know now than find out later and feel deceived.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

They sound very close-minded. Maybe they were just taken by surprise at encountering a concept so far outside their experience, but how they handled it doesn't speak well of them. You're very generous to even consider continuing a friendship after they treated you and your beliefs with such disrespect.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm just trying to be understanding. I think it's probably just a new concept for them, and I think its normal to fear what you don't comprehend but... I think they took it a little farther than a normal negative reaction.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)




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## oregongirlie (Mar 14, 2006)

What a great conversation. I feel for you but I'm glad you got angry, because that's what this situation warrants. True friends respect eachother's religion and pay eachother fairly. They also respect their friends' levels of education. I wish for you to find some people who are kind and respectful of you. OH, and if you tell people that you practice "naturism", I think that means you're a nudist!


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

I understand your frustration and I have a lot of mixed feelings about the situation as you've described it.

If a family wants to advertise for a nanny position specifying that only Christians of whatever sect they want to limit themselves, I think that's their right. They'd do best to stick within the confines of their own church congregation in that case, though.

How insulting that you were offered a cut-rate salary! If you would like to do child care, I suggest that you talk with some other home daycare providers and think about what your expectations might be. So many "babysitters" and "nannies" are taken advantage of even when contracts with the details clearly spelled out are signed.

It sounds like they're really frightened because they perceive that your religion is anti-their-religion rather than being another religion independently. Not excusing their behavior! They really don't "get" where you're coming from and that's not your fault.

I can think of many questions that I would have for a potential child care provider, and some of the answers might mean "no" -- and some of the reasons for the answers might be due to religious belief. It's not that someone is a blankist that matters, it's that my kids must not be exposed to physical punishment, sexism, homophobia, racism, etc. etc. by a designated authority figure for most of their waking hours.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

I wonder if she has any friends who are Jewish or any other religion that isn't Christian? Is this how she treats them? Some people think "pagan" means you have no religion...but it sounds like you were telling them your beliefs.

I'm a Christian and I don't agree with this method of "reaching out" to others. I hope you can both learn and grow from this experience. I'm sorry you experienced this disrespect.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I was telling him how we don't all believe the same thing, and they said that seems silly.

That's kind of a weird comment to come from someone whose religion encompasses everything from the pope to Fred Phelps to Jesse Jackson, don't you think? I can't imagine it's even possible for paganism to be less unified than Christianity, when you think about all the sects and denominations and theological controversies that exist among Christians.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree they have the right and should exercise it to chose a child care provider they are comfortable with. What frustrates me is that they asked me obviously before knowing me well enough and that they reacted the way they did to this. They had no idea what my religion was, so they should have found that out before asking me to be their nanny. And that they suddenly think it would affect my nannying. Either I"m a good mother or I'm not!

"That's kind of a weird comment to come from someone whose religion encompasses everything from the pope to Fred Phelps to Jesse Jackson, don't you think? I can't imagine it's even possible for paganism to be less unified than Christianity, when you think about all the sects and denominations and theological controversies that exist among Christians."

EXACTLY! I tried to bring that up, but... *sighs*


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I am really sorry for the way you were treated. It sounds like they were just shocked and over re-acted.

Personally, I can understand the issues with the nanny job. I would not want someone of a different religion watching my children. Not to be descriminating against them, but because I have a set way of doing things that include my God in EVERYTHING I do, and I would not be comfortable asking someone else to do that if they had a different god. So it would be for the sake of the person as well as my own children.

But, that said, *I* will be friends with anyone of any religion. And to a degree, I will allow my children to be friends with anyone of any religion, so long as their religious beliefs did not come into play. It is just a personal choice to not let anyone that does not serve my God to be a caregiver for my children. However, that is partly why I am a SAHM. I do it myself.

I think they did react very badly, and should have definately found out more information about you before offering you a job, if they had specific ideals. Perhaps after some "getting used to it" time she will see how she acted and apologize. I know there are times I have acted quite badly when suddenly faced with an unexpected turn of events.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

If there are specific religious things they want me to do, I'd be happy to! But I think she knew I wasn't specifically Catholic. If I prayed before my meals I would have done so the last time I ate in front of her. If she wanted a Catholic she should have asked one. If she wanted someone who is always talking about God she should have asked someone like that, you know?

I hope she does apologize and realize how hurtful what she did was. I think I'll talk to her about it next time we're chatting.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

ITA with everything you said. She should have laid out her desires and found a suitable person that could fulfill all of them.

I would talk to her. If it has been a good friendship up to now, it should whether this storm. It should not be allowed to go unsaid, either. Because it bothered you a lot and she should know that. If she is your friend she will want to fix the breech that has been caused.

Again, I am really sorry. I have never met a pagan IRL, but I have met many other religious people. Very few have I been uncomfortable with, and those were not because of "religious" reasons. But I have never come out being condescending or "better than thou" to them. I believe that my God is the One True God, but in believing that I have to abide by His command to love all His creation.

If I met you IRL, I would not try and convert you or tell you how wrong you are.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I'm a Christian myself, but I would have never treated you in that way. As Christians, we are NOT suppoused to be judgmental to others in their religions, are thought we are suppoused to gently share the gospel with them, but not to be rude or coercive about that. That's awful that you were treated that way.


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## lauraheartslittle1 (Apr 12, 2006)

Couldn't read this without offering ((hugs)). That's just too sad that they are so closed minded.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Holy moly, those people were so incredibly rude to you!!!!!!! I'm shocked but at the same time I'm not. Some people just live in their own worlds and think THEIR way is the ONLY way. Sad but true.









I don't blame you one bit for being hurt and angry.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I am sorry things played out the way they did. That was unessecarily harsh to say the least.

I can understand why they want a Christian nanny. Some with a geniune faith and not just playing the part. But they should have made more of an effort to actually find out before they asked you. You should never lie about who you are or pretend to be someone you are not for the sake of the job.

If you are still intrested in finding a childcare position keep looking. it sounds like it is well paying where you live and from what you said in the original post like something you would really enjoy.

as for the firendship and even the job it sounds like you have become the project. i would think twice before accepting either.

just a tip though (totaly OT) when you do find the right nannying job, be sure they are with holding medicare and fica. because it sucks to find out at the end of the yearyou have to come up with that money.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Wow. That sounds painful and uncomfortable. If I were you, I wouldn't want to nanny for them at this point unless I received an apology, given that you were at the receiving end of rude and discriminatory conduct.

If you do want to look after a child in your home, try talking to elementary schools in the area, moms at library programs or playgroups, etc. Also talk to care providers to find out what the going rate is. Finally, don't discuss or bring up your religion. That is not lying 'by omission' - it's not giving them the opportunity to discriminate against you.

Friends don't seek out friends on a full-time basis in order to pay them less than the going rate!


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
You should never lie about who you are or pretend to be someone you are not for the sake of the job.

I dunno mama, I think I have to disagree with you here. People lie all the time to get and keep jobs. All too often we can't be ourselves at jobs or else a lot of people wouldn't be getting paid.









moonfirefaery have you decided what to do as far as the friendship and everything goes? I know if it was me I could not be friends with someone who would not respect my space by trying to force their religion on me.

True, they have a right to choose someone of their own faith to watch their DC if that is what makes them more comfortable but if this was so important I don't understand why they did not let that be known up front.

That reaction was over the top definitely.


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

I am Catholic- and my brother is Catholic. And it is like we have 2 different religions. He would be the one who beats you up because Cathoilicism is the only religion and all others are not real. (I don't feel that way at all) Even though we have the same religion, we do not follow the same ideals or beliefs. Weird huh? I took my blinders off, he still wears his. So I don't think its the religions as so much as its the person who defines their faith. And that is sad.
If your neighbor finds the need to condemn you and your beliefs, that is not healthy for either one of you. What is healthy is a natural courteous understanding and respect for one another ~regardless of faith~ whether you or she understands each others religion or not. The door swings both ways.
By this standard, you can decide if the friendship is one to hang onto.
Also- $400.00 a month? Mama do not short change yourself... really!
If she is your friend, she is insulting you with that amount.


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amyjeans*
I am Catholic- and my brother is Catholic. And it is like we have 2 different religions. He would be the one who beats you up because Cathoilicism is the only religion and all others are not real. (I don't feel that way at all) Even though we have the same religion, we do not follow the same ideals or beliefs. Weird huh? I took my blinders off, he still wears his. So I don't think its the religions as so much as its the person who defines their faith. And that is sad.
If your neighbor finds the need to condemn you and your beliefs, that is not healthy for either one of you. What is healthy is a natural courteous understanding and respect for one another ~regardless of faith~ whether you or she understands each others religion or not. The door swings both ways.
By this standard, you can decide if the friendship is one to hang onto.
Also- $400.00 a month? Mama do not short change yourself... really!
If she is your friend, she is insulting you with that amount.









:







All of what amyjeans said!


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Dh is Catholic and I am not (yell, I'm not even Christian) but he chose to see past that because he liked me as a friend (which is what we started out as.) Our daughter is being raised Catholic since that's what dh is and I actaully agree with a lot of parts of the religion (although I'll never become Catholic because I don't agree with it all) and her best friend is being raised Pagen. I know nothing of Pagen, but dd's best friend's mom and I are also good friends. When I told dh, he said he didn't know much about it and left it that. None of this dd can't be friends with this little girl.

I'm sorry, but they don't seem to be people you should be friends with. If I limited all my friends to just Catholics, then I'd be hanging with no one. If that's how they want to be, then okay. Also, I know plenty of christians who are crappy parents so I don't know what paganism has to do with parenting.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I agree they have the right and should exercise it to chose a child care provider they are comfortable with. What frustrates me is that they asked me obviously before knowing me well enough and that they reacted the way they did to this. They had no idea what my religion was, so they should have found that out before asking me to be their nanny. And that they suddenly think it would affect my nannying. Either I"m a good mother or I'm not!


I'm so sorry that you're hurting and the Inquisition sounds agonizing.







:

It's interesting that they prejudged that from the way you parent, you must be just like them religiously! Hopefully they'll take away the feeling that there is common ground to embrace and not the feeling that they should be more suspicious in the future.

I'm sorry that in my first post I did not acknowlege your feelings as much as I'd intended. I probabaly would have spent the rest of the day fighting off a panic attack if that had happened to me.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

I'm sorry you were treated so unfairly. My family is Catholic and I know they wouldn't discriminate against a nanny b/c her religion was different. In general I find the Catholic community to be kind, caring and giving people. However I have met some extremists who won't talk to you if you're "just like them". Then again you can find people like that in practically every religious faith. i don't understand why you felt the need to explain yourself to them, or why when asked what your religion is say "that's personal-i don't discuss it"Because really your religious beliefs are no one's business but your own. Seriously if they are going to judge you and act like they are "better" than you b/c of religion then you really don't need them as friends or even acquaintances. Good luck and rememebr to stay strong and stand up for what you believe in-don't let anyone put you down.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

mama, that just sucks. i'm sorry. how are you surviving as a pagan in co. springs of all places?! come up here! the dark side has cookies!
seriously, the way you were treated is so wrong it makes me sad. my college roommate was christian and never was cruel to me. she shared her beliefs, but never expected me to convert. she was my maid of honor in my wedding! she let me (the heathen!) babysit her kids! THAT is a real christian. (ftr, i'm not much of anything)
i wouldn't blame you if you broke off the friendship. that is NOT a way you treat a friend.
and, seriously, if you're ever up in denver, let me know.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

To be completely honest with you, I have felt more at home as a witch here in Colorado Springs than anywhere else I have ever lived. The Pagan community is amazing here, and people tend to be very open-minded towards it. I am astounded that my first encounter like this was here.

I have written her a long letter to try to clear up her misconceptions. I may find some informative sites to include on the disc I'm making her. (I don't have a printer). I'm not like most Pagans, and she doesn't even know what most Pagans are like anyway. I hope this will help the matter.

I'm going to return the book to her with the letter. It mostly talks about how athiests are just too logical. I think they must have thought I must not believe in God at all if I don't believe Jesus is God, even though Jesus never specifically said that he was God--only that the Father was in him and he in the Father, which is something I beleive is true for all of God's children.

Thank you all... I do agree that $400 was way too little to be paid for watching her. I just thought it was the right/nice thing to do. Unfortunately it seems like I'm the only one in this situation trying to think of the other's feelings. Seriously, it was like they'd discovered a drug addict and were performing an intervention, and they seem to have very low opinions of my intelligence and wisdom because of my age--as if they have a clue what I have lived through.

"I probabaly would have spent the rest of the day fighting off a panic attack if that had happened to me."

I DID


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## Ragana (Oct 15, 2002)

Hmmm, this is really thought provoking. I'm pagan (but not Wiccan), too, and have friends who believe in all sorts of religions. However, when I reversed the situation, I started to think about what I would do if I were in the neighbor's place. I tend to agree with post #30. I don't think I would hire a Christian nanny who believed in prostheletizing. (Of course, someone who was a great nanny and Christian - or any other religion - but didn't discuss their religion with the kids for the purpose of prostheletizing would be OK.) But religion isn't usually a question discussed in job interviews, so I guess to avoid the religious discrimination, I would ask that the nanny not discuss religion with the kids at all.

In your case, moonfirefaery, the friendship obviously complicates the situation. Many Christians *have* been taught that pagans are evil, so maybe if your friend is open to discussion, you can educate her. Depends on how much energy you have, though!

Best of luck with this situation.

PS Nannies pay is in the range of $400/week in the metro area where I live.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I wouldn't want a Christian preaching at my son either, but that's the thing... I don't talk about my religion. They didn't even know about it until I told them!


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## Ragana (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I wouldn't want a Christian preaching at my son either, but that's the thing... I don't talk about my religion. They didn't even know about it until I told them!

I know. I think it's a case of pagans are going to hell and could contaminate my child type of thinking. Sad. It seems like some Christians (note: referring to Christians with specific beliefs here) think that everyone else prostheletizes as much as they (are told to) do when most other religions prefer to keep to themselves and live and let live. My DH grew up in a sect like this.

Hope you can work out this situation.


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

I'm so sorry you had this experience! It sounds like it was really hurtful to you. While I think that childcare is an area in which a parent has every right to be as religously discriminating as they wish, if it was really a primary concern of hers, I really think she would've questioned you. There certainly seems to be no reason to have assumed you were christian like she did. Why would you be anything other than straightforward and honest with a friend about your beliefs and expect to have them respected, ya know? (Although as an atheist, I've been known to soft-sell myself to those with a great deal of faith when asked as agnostic to try to avoid causing them too much upset.) And 400 a month? I might offer a family member that, but I'd really want to pay a friend fairly or I'd fear risking the friendship, lol. Maybe they really do think you are naive and not just big hearted. As to the holding the employment over your head over this religion thing - well, I think your friend may come around faster than you think. You're offering more than she is in that deal. Perhaps her principles are stronger, and for that I would respect her, but next door child care from someone you know and trust for such a low $ amount is something she likely can't beat. So I'd carefully consider whether I was still willing to participate in that arrangement anyhow, and make sure all my issues in the relationship were addressed before I did. I think she can only come back to what a great friend and neighbor she has in you (which is no doubt why your religion and hoped for afterlife is such a vital concern to her,) and hopefully the rift in your friendship will be mended.


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## pinuchkin (Nov 3, 2005)

Another perspective ... we hired a SAHM to watch DD. She was very AP, and generally wonderful. But she was very christian, and we're atheists. She was respectful of our lifestyle, we were respectful of hers. Nobody pushed anything, and it was great.

If your friends aren't able to cope with your philosophical stance, that's their problem and not yours, and you're the better for it.


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## katt (Nov 29, 2001)

You might want to turn it back on to her and Return her books while telling her that you don't know if you would be able to watch her DD after feeling so attacked about your beliefs.
You could continue on with that you really enjoy your friendship with her and was looking forward to watching her dd. ETC...

I agree with a PP:

Quote:

You are not attacking thier religion, life style, values, priorities, choices or beliefs, they have no right to attack yours.


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## McFeelings (May 10, 2006)

Well it certainly sounds like a really yicky experience to have a 3-on-1 dogpile evangelizing session. I think it would be reasonable to turn down the nannying gig and step away from the friendship.

However, if you are interested and willing you could try to take this opportunity to build bridges rather than putting up walls. First, I'd invite your friend over (alone!) and explain that you were surprised/hurt/offended/upset by the way your last encounter went. Then I'd just take the nannying off the table for now and just work on the friendship/neighbor issue. You could say that you'd like to continue to have a good neighbor relationship, espcially since your kids are friends. You can either both be respectful of each other's faith and limit yourselves to interfaith dialogue where neither party is trying to evangelize, or that you can just agree not to discuss matters of faith AT ALL. If she is willing to do either of these, you can continue to be friends. If not, politely show her the door.

FWIW, my mom and her partner are Pagan, and are very vocally anti-Catholic at times so I can in some small part relate to your experience. I also used to teach Sunday school to 7th graders and one day one of my students brought her friend with her since they had a sleep over the night before. The new girl asked me after class if she could keep coming to Sunday school. I told her sure, but I would need to speak to her parents first to make sure they were okay with it. Then she said, "But my family is Pagan, is that okay." I caught my breath realizing that I could inadvertantly stir up a lot of trouble and misunderstanding and told her that as long as her parents knew and approved where she was, that was okay. But I also let her know the class was for learning about Catholicism not debating it or comparing it to other faiths and that we were simultaneously preparing for sacraments that a non-Catholic wouldn't be able to participate in but could learn about. But as far as classes went, she was more than welcome. Well, her mom never called and she never returned. And I always wondered if she figured some crazy evangelizing Catholic had tried to brainwash her daughter into going to Sunday school!


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

What a rotten experience, mama. I'm sorry.

That being said, I'm Catholic. You sound like a great mom, and I'd have no problem with you taking care of my kids. I like pagans. They're some of the more open-minded people and wonderful people I've ever met, and I think they have great values for children to learn. Besides, if I'm raising my kids Catholic, then it's my job to teach them all about it...not my caregiver, yes? So I wouldn't be worried.

And I LMAO at putting signs in your yard to agitate her. I think it would be hilarious.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Years ago, I was very anti-Christian when I first converted, but I am completely not like that now...and I think they ought to know that, being that I have always known they were Christian and have never said anything rude. I'm as close to a Christian as a Pagan; I just focus that part of my life on Jesus himself, not every Christian that contributed more to the Bible. I think the Bible should be taken more metaphorically, and I'm just not particularly concerned much with Paul or anyone else--mainly just Jesus.

I wrote her a VERY long letter. I'm going to just put a disc on her door with the ltter on it. (Whenever she gives me a card or something, she just leaves it on my door, too). I tried to focus on explaining my reason rather than telling her how rude her actions were at all. I just stated that I was hurt but understand.

PS - My mom sent me flowers today because she knows I'm feeling blue about it. How sweet


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## Tonia80 (Jun 10, 2006)

As a christian mom I can understand the other moms point of view I guess BUT to be honest your religion would NOT hinder my trust in you as a sitter for my children! I woudl certainly make clear to you taht our children belive in God so you could not teach them any of YOUR beliefs. as long as you promised you would leave the religion thing to me and thier father I could care less. I have a friend who watches my kids sometimes and she spanks her kids. But I made it clear to her i DO not allow spanking and she is respectful of that and not only will not ever hit my kids but does not spank her child while at my house. Religion can be touchy and there can always be that fear in a parent. just liek if you seek a nanny you might worry a christian nanny would teach your child beliefs you do not agree with. i think she ought to trust you as a friend. It's not like by your caring for her child that her child is gonna be affected for all eternity. I guess it comes down to wether she is willing to trust you. Obviously you are not going around acting all crazy worshipping satan as she did not even realize you were pagan so WHY should it matter now that she does know?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Exactly. It should be about trust. And I think if I was some blatantly Satanic person, she'd have known, like you said.


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## kodamama (Aug 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
I'm not near "as Pagan" as some others. It's a really quiet, internal part of my life. I rarely "show it" outwardly except on the Sabbats. Mostly, I quietly think about how it relates to my life. I reflect on its teachings and how I can better live my life, rather than talking about it. I don't "dress Pagan" or "decorate Pagan" or "talk Pagan." It's just what I believe, not who I am.

I was telling him how we don't all believe the same thing, and they said that seems silly. They seem to have encountered some Pagans who were, well, weird possibly even 'bad.' I told him "Well, it's because Paganism applies to so many religions, and because so many belief systems are fighting over the name of Wicca. Plus, these beliefs come from many tribes, and they all had different beliefs." Sometimes I think it'd just be easier to call it something else with fewer negative conotations attached, like naturism or something. *sighs*

I am the same way and when my MIL found out I was Pagan she was fine with it until she found out I have a website about myself. Then she freaked. Somehow now I was advertising it to the whole world and if someone who knew her found out, then the world would end. This really made me angry.

I am moving to GA soon and we will live with my in laws who are Christian but my FIL is born-again and very into Jesus and saving souls. Right now I haven't told them about what I believe but I am guessing eventually it will come out. I'll just have to weather that storm when I get to it.

I don't understand the whole trying to convert people thing. I don't know why they do it but I wish they wouldn't, I am very happy in my beliefs and I wish people could understand that.








to you and best of luck!


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

I honestly think that it is where you live. I know that you said that there is a large pagan community there, but the Springs is also the headquarters of Focus on the Family and has a huge fundamentalist Christian community. We live in Ft Collins and dh often says that he feels like we have moved to the Bible belt. I've had kids at dd's prior school approach me and tell me that my child will be going to hell b/c she "doesn't have Jesus in her heart." There are churches on what seems like every corner and the public schools teach character education utilizing materials from a group (Character Fort Collins) that includes bible quotes all over their literature to emphasize the character traits they are teaching (like "the meek shall inherit the earth" to exemplify meekness which is not a trait, incidentally, that I want dd being taught in school).

I've been in a situation before, as well, where keeping my job would have required subjugating my core beliefs. It wasn't worth it and I still feel damage from the way I was made to feel badly about myself. I should never have taken the job, but am glad that I at least made the decision to leave. I do believe that you have made the correct decision as well. My only advice would be to continue to hold your head high, don't attack her or try to make her come to a point of agreeing that she was wrong. She probably will never understand that. Just let her think what she wants, deal with your hurt away from her and let her be an aquaintance b/c you don't want to have an enemy as a neighbor.


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## jet1295mamajenn (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience. You asked her if it was a problem, though, right? I'm just wondering if deep down you had a feeling that there might be an issue, and that prompted you to ask, you know?

As a Catholic, Christian mom, I could see that (justified or not) maybe they're concerned that when they're not there, you might try to teach their children Pagan beliefs. Does that make any sense? I'm not excusing her bad behavior, but if basic Christianity is important to them and is important regarding their children's upbringing, maybe she's worried that won't be respected.

In this discussion (hope I'm not violating anything) : http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=495375 there are a lot of perspectives about whether the posters think it's important that their children believe in God. The answers come from atheists, pagans, Buddhists, Christians, Jews...just a lot of different parents with different backgrounds. It seemed just as important to the atheists that their children not believe in God as it was to those who do believe in God that their children believe. So by that token, perhaps this "friend" of yours is just very concerned what is going to be taught to her child(ren) when out of her sight. I'm sure you are very unassuming, as you've said, in your faith, but does she have confidence in that?

Anyway. Not sure if I'm making any sense. I'm just sorry your friend couldn't have had a real, two-sided discussion with you. One of my closest friends, who is Jewish, went through an agnostic spell in high school. She is now active in her faith, so I think she found her way back to it. I've always been a devout Catholic. We knew this about each other, yet we were always able to be super-close friends. My mom was Methodist until I was 14 or 15, my dad has always been Catholic. I've had friends who were from many other religious backgrounds--Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox Christian, Methodist Christian, Episcopalian Chrisitan, Presbyterian Christian, Baptist Christian, Church of Christ, Pentecostal Christian, Evangelical Christian, Mormon, Unitarian Universalist, and nothing at all. I absolutely believe that people can be friends regardless of their religious beliefs, but when it comes to parenting, I think the concerns are different, whether or not they are justified.

I don't know what to say other than I'm sorry they attacked you the way they did and just came at you. Wow...I don't know a lot of Catholics who would just go out and start doing that unless they were really prompted to do so (challenged by an anti-Catholic person). I've known people in other churches to do that sort of evangelizing, and even as a Catholic (who has been questioned and attacked in the past for being Catholic), I know that doesn't really get you too far. I also know that when there have been people who really challenged my religious beliefs or gave me a hard time for being Catholic, if I had to think of them being caregiver to my children, I'd never feel comfortable because I know they'd be trying to put their beliefs on my children.

But my Jewish, once agnostic, now actively Jewish again friend...I'd ABSOLUTELY trust her to watch my children. Too bad she lives in CA and I live in PA!!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

"I honestly think that it is where you live. I know that you said that there is a large pagan community there, but the Springs is also the headquarters of Focus on the Family and has a huge fundamentalist Christian community"

Good point!!

"I could see that (justified or not) maybe they're concerned that when they're not there, you might try to teach their children Pagan beliefs. Does that make any sense?"

I understand this, but I don't see why they'd think that. I'd never even mentioned being Pagan before, and I can't imagine why they'd think I'd deliberately try to make their child Pagan when it's not my child!

Thanks for all the supprt. I'm done with this woman. Here's an update:

she apologized if she made me feel bad and said she needed to get to know me more. She said Wicca bothered her more than Paganism, but when I tried to explain that Wicca isn't witchcraft, just that some Wiccans do it, she jumped up my ass snapping that she wasn't going to arguea bout it. How is she going to get to know me if she jumps down my throat when I try to inform her about myself?

She says she thinks I'm very young, over and over, sweet and well-intentioned, but very young...goes on to mention how much more expeirence in childcare she has than me, which seems irrelevent. She seems to think I've experienced nothing because I haven't lived the extra six years she has on me. She interrupted a nursing session. We'd just shwoered and were nursing wrapped in towels, so I had to quickly dress then bring down the naked baby. She orders me to put clothes on him, as if I was too stupid to remember to do it myself and cuoldn't possibly just be thinking he didn't really need them and would be fine for a few minutes without it. She then tells me she thinks he's tired, because he's whining. I told her repeatedly that he doesn't get tired this early, and she said "Well, he could be overtired, and you mistake it for hiim being awake." I was just like "Um, no." He was whiny because he wanted to nurse, not because he was sleepy.

So anyway, she goes on to say that I need to think about my parenting and what kind of a parent I want to be, and that I really need to get that down before I have another child...and I'm just standing there nodding, not saying much because I know she isn't going to listen. Like I haven't been parenting these 14 months. Like I haven't got a style or figured out what kind of parent I want to be. Like I don't have beliefs because I'm not her.

I shouldn't have to tell someone my life story to earn their respect and be treated as equal, deal with someone who is going to condescend to me and tell me what to do all the time as if they know what's best for me and MY child, and I can't get to know her if she jumps on me when I educate her about my religion. How would she feel if she was informing me about Catholicism and I jumped up her ass saying I wasn't going to argue, as if I, a nonCatholic, knew more about it than her? Right.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
My feelings are so hurt right now. I don't know if I'm more pissed off or if I just want to cry.

I have very few friends here because I'm an at-home mom who doesn't get out much. I've been developing a friendship with my neighbor who has a 12-month-old little girl. We've always gotten along.

She approached me and asked me to nanny her little girl 5 days a week for $400 a month, which is really a bargain in our city, and I said yes. I've been just so excited about it, not just so we can have some extra money, but so the kids can socialize, so I can get used to having two babies, and because I'd love some girl time.

She said she thinks I'm a very good mother, that she can see that in my interactions with my son, and that she'd much rather her daughter be with me than in daycare. That made me feel very good.

Today, she and I were talking, and she was telling me her church needs nursery volunteers. I asked if they'd have a problem with me not being Christian. She asked "What are you?" and I told her I was Pagan.

They just freaked. Their faces looked like they had just discovered a terrorist. She told me she has a huge problem with that with this look of shock and appallment on her face. I told them I'd be happy to explain what I believe, and I did.

They started lecturing me, questioning my faith, etc. I tried to remain calm and polite, just answer honestly but without being offensive. She brought her brother down, who claims to know more about it because he's read so much. I tried to tell them that I'd studied this for ten years and know plenty about it. They started reading me book quotes, asking me to read up on these books, basically so I'd come back to Christianity. I'm very secure in my beliefs. One day I may find Christianity is my path again, but that's NOT the way I want to find it. Anyway, they pretty much interrogated me for like half an hour, and I was so nervous and uncomfortable. I was afraid I was losing a friend as well as a job over my religion, which hasn't ever happened to me before. I know it's because she doesn't know much about it...though they seem to think that they do...but I'm so hurt. They kept lecturing me about how Protestantism broke away from Catholicism...as if I didn't already know, considering they taught me that in like ninth grade. Her brother was telling me a high school diploma means squat these days and pretty much that I have no education. He asked me why I felt it was necessary to worship the Earth... which I don't.

I left with a book and a broken-heart. She said she'll get back to me about nannying. They weren't trying to be mean, but it seemed very rude. I tried to tell her it isn't going to affect how I watch her daughter. I'm not going to change her diaper in some Pagan way, talk about Yule to her, or pray to the Goddess with her. She said "Yeah but it's such a huge difference of religion, and it affects how you live your life. I have to think about it." I told her we probably agree on most things, that it affects my life really just by me respecting nature and being nice to people, and that I don't often make religious references because I feel religion is a personal thing. I just don't see how my having a different relationship would affect my ability to give her daughter a bottle of milk. If I'm such a good mother then it shouldn't matter, right? It's not like Paganism is contagious, I have Earth mama cooties, and I'm going to convert her. I mean, I sure as heck wouldn't do to her or anyone what she just did to me. She said it's more about her needing to follow her religion in every way of life, including who watches her kid...and I just fail to see how leaving your child with someone of a different faith a few hours a day is going to go against Catholicism? Especially when it's a person who is very quiet about their religion and believes about thes ame as you do about how to live life... (Any Catholics who want to explain this to me... please do so.)

So, I'm sorry. I just needed a place to vent and get some advice. I don't know what to do. Part of me wants to just smile and nod and pretend I agree with them, kind of hide my faith a bit so I don't lose a friend...and another prat of me wants to march back over there with this book, tell them that I know a lot more than they give me credit for, that I'm not Pagan cuz of my age, that I'm not a bad person, that it was rude to do thta to me, that I don't appreciate it, and that I have no desire to be their friend or nanny if they are going to treat me like an ignorant devil-worshipper. I'm just so torn. I have no friends, and now i'm losing one because I have a different belief system.

Moonfire, I am so sorry that you had to experience this







You were amazingly patient with her and tried very hard to communicate what your beliefs are, there was nothing more you could do, you're not at fault at all.

I hope the situation can be resolved without any pain


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Moonfirefaery, I am so sorry for your experience. No one has the right to "tell" you how to parent YOUR child. I have had seven children to raise, I am quite experienced in raising them, but I NEVER tell someone else how to raise their child, or that they are just too young to understand.

Every parent has to start somewhere. I will gladly offer advice when asked, and sometimes without being asked, however, I don't push it on someone. I may feel that they are not doing something right, but who am I to say it is wrong? Everyone has different parenting styles. If you respect my parenting style, I will respect yours.

I don't think the major issue here is religion, but rather her thinking that she knows more than you and has the right to force her ideas on you.







NO ONE knows YOUR baby better than YOU (or your DH, MAYBE). It is ok to THINK you know what a baby wants and maybe offer a suggestion, but I would NEVER presume to tell another mother what HER baby needed or that she was wrong.

By the way, nekked babies are SOOO adorable!


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

1. she's no friend of yours. and she's giving Catholics a bad name. ew!
2. what is more concerning is that she, as an EMPLOYER, is thinking about not hiring you because of your religion. for future reference, employers are *not* allowed to ask about your religion nor are they allowed to discriminate based on religion. that makes me feel more icky than anything.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
2. what is more concerning is that she, as an EMPLOYER, is thinking about not hiring you because of your religion. for future reference, employers are *not* allowed to ask about your religion nor are they allowed to discriminate based on religion. that makes me feel more icky than anything.

Actually, as a peron hiring a child care provider for their own children they can choose to discriminate based on any reason they want. I have certain ideals and beliefs, when picking a child care provider, I will be very discriminatory in who I choose to watch my children. And it is quite legal. I would just not be rude about it.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

ah, point taken, it only applies to people who have 15 or more employees.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

her thinking that she knows more than you and has the right to force her ideas on you.
This bothers me a lot more than her being ignorant, uninformed, or concerned about a nonChristian environment for her child. She just thinks I'm inferior, unequal to her because of my age. She thinks I need her to tell me whether my child is tired, hungry, or just mad about an interruption, for example. She thinks she knows more about my religion, because she's older, more about life, childcare, etc. That really bugs the crap out of me. She has no idea what I've lived through, experienced, or what I know. She has six years on me, not twenty!

And yes, nekked babies are cute


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

Wow! Her attitude is just plain ridiculous. If you were so inexperienced and such a terrible mother, why in the world did she ask you to be her child's nanny?? I'm sorry you went through that







FWIW, you sound like a great mama to me, and your age has nothing to do with it.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm Catholic and my dd1 had a pagan babysitter and a Hindu babysitter. *I* teach my kid our religion *and* religious acceptance of others. My oldest and bestest friend is a Buddhist with a Jewish heritage.

Don't work for peanuts for someone who doesn't respect you. Let her know that you are no longer interested in nannying for her. Wish her the best in finding someone suitable for her family.

Then, start opening up those social channels so you won't be limited in your friendships to bigots (imo) who live next door.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
"So anyway, she goes on to say that I need to think about my parenting and what kind of a parent I want to be, and that I really need to get that down before I have another child...and I'm just standing there nodding, not saying much because I know she isn't going to listen. Like I haven't been parenting these 14 months. Like I haven't got a style or figured out what kind of parent I want to be. Like I don't have beliefs because I'm not her.

I shouldn't have to tell someone my life story to earn their respect and be treated as equal, deal with someone who is going to condescend to me and tell me what to do all the time as if they know what's best for me and MY child, and I can't get to know her if she jumps on me when I educate her about my religion. How would she feel if she was informing me about Catholicism and I jumped up her ass saying I wasn't going to argue, as if I, a nonCatholic, knew more about it than her? Right.

This is just so wrong. Who does she think she is to question your parenting and to have you make a list before you have another child. WTF!

You do not have to explain yourself to anyone. She is not your friend, and I doubt she ever will be. You do not want someone like her in your life. She sounds almost toxic.

I live in Colorado Springs and would be happy to have coffee with you. And be your friend.

We are to love, not judge.


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## Lara vanAEsir (May 24, 2006)




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## jet1295mamajenn (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*

Thanks for all the supprt. I'm done with this woman. Here's an update:

she apologized if she made me feel bad and said she needed to get to know me more. She said Wicca bothered her more than Paganism, but when I tried to explain that Wicca isn't witchcraft, just that some Wiccans do it, she jumped up my ass snapping that she wasn't going to arguea bout it. How is she going to get to know me if she jumps down my throat when I try to inform her about myself?

She says she thinks I'm very young, over and over, sweet and well-intentioned, but very young...goes on to mention how much more expeirence in childcare she has than me, which seems irrelevent. She seems to think I've experienced nothing because I haven't lived the extra six years she has on me. She interrupted a nursing session. We'd just shwoered and were nursing wrapped in towels, so I had to quickly dress then bring down the naked baby. She orders me to put clothes on him, as if I was too stupid to remember to do it myself and cuoldn't possibly just be thinking he didn't really need them and would be fine for a few minutes without it. She then tells me she thinks he's tired, because he's whining. I told her repeatedly that he doesn't get tired this early, and she said "Well, he could be overtired, and you mistake it for hiim being awake." I was just like "Um, no." He was whiny because he wanted to nurse, not because he was sleepy.

So anyway, she goes on to say that I need to think about my parenting and what kind of a parent I want to be, and that I really need to get that down before I have another child...and I'm just standing there nodding, not saying much because I know she isn't going to listen. Like I haven't been parenting these 14 months. Like I haven't got a style or figured out what kind of parent I want to be. Like I don't have beliefs because I'm not her.

I shouldn't have to tell someone my life story to earn their respect and be treated as equal, deal with someone who is going to condescend to me and tell me what to do all the time as if they know what's best for me and MY child, and I can't get to know her if she jumps on me when I educate her about my religion. How would she feel if she was informing me about Catholicism and I jumped up her ass saying I wasn't going to argue, as if I, a nonCatholic, knew more about it than her? Right.

Wow...it was bad enough when she was so rude to you before, but even then, if her concern was about her children...there's a little more understanding of the concerns, whether or not they're justified.

But to tell YOU how to parent YOUR child?! I'm sorry...That's ridiculous. Six years' difference is not 20 years' difference, and it's not 20 children later or anything like that, either. Either way, she should not patronize you like that.

Well, maybe whatever pulled you to ask if your being Pagan was an issue had something to do with this. At least it saves you from learning all this about her later.

Again, sorry someone treated you this way.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I'm sorry this happened.







To many Christians, saying you're Pagan is like saying you're a Satanist. (Which I know isn't true, but that's how it's percieved.) I can see there's been other stuff that's happened since that first incident, and I think I agree with whoever's said to just move on.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

I know this isn't what you're asking about, but honestly, I HAVE to say it! $400 per MONTH, 5 days a week? That's not a bargain, that's a STEAL. I'd say no, just for that... not even touching the inappropriateness of her reaction to your voluntary admission to her that you weren't a Christian.

Does this woman understand she's offering you $100 per week to care for her child? Not her PET, not watch her house on vacation... care for her CHILD. She's either completely ignorant, or mainpulative. I nannied during college in the summers, for two children, 5 days per week, for $400 per WEEK. This was 10 years ago.

You deserve to be fairly compensated for your time, and I can't believe someone would offer you such a pittance for childcare.

You have every right to be furious.

::Edited to Add::

I'm glad to read you're not taking her up on her offer. So sorry you have to live next door to one another. And even more glad that you listen to your own child & your own parenting instincts over some outsider's observations & commentary on your parenting skills!!


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

Sorry! I think you're right to be done with the friendship. She doesn't respect you. She's finding fault with everything you do- your age even.

You can find other friends who even if they are a different religion or age or whatever will be interested in you and your feelings and respect your decisions.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks. I really appreciate the ongoing support you're all giving. I still feel very bad about this. I have yet to tell her how I feel. I imagine she's going to come over here eventually, wanting to borrow milk or chat or schedule an outing for our children. I don't really know how I'll handle it.

What baffles me is how she's rambling on about what a good mother she thinks I am and how she thinks that of so few people...then suddenly she finds out I'm Pagan, and she ups the touting of the parenting advice 100% and suddenly I need to think about the kind of parent I want to be!


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

well mama- being who I am, If I was confronted with this type of situation, I would have 2 options.
1-forgive. by doing so, I rise above the situation and not provide her with any indication that her actions have caused any reaction. There are way too many more important things to concern and deal with than a neighbor with issues. To err is human, right?
2-confront. by doing this, I attempt to get my point across (although knowing full well it will have no effect) I might feel good about putting her in her place at the moment- but in the long run, I might have alienated myself and made any future interactions with her downright uncomfortable. Then again, I would feel compelled to stand up for myself. This can be done gently yet firmly regardless of her reaction. She felt a need to stand up for herself, though it wasn't necessary. One thing I would remember to do, if I chose to confront,would be to address the situation with little or no emotion- despite her obvious emotional reaction to what I say. Speaking matter of factly, to the point, short and sweet.
just my 2 cents.
sorry you are going through this.
All my best~


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## Serrendipity (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
What baffles me is how she's rambling on about what a good mother she thinks I am and how she thinks that of so few people...then suddenly she finds out I'm Pagan, and she ups the touting of the parenting advice 100% and suddenly I need to think about the kind of parent I want to be!

I think I would say exactly that, if/when she comes over. And I'd add that she's behaving very rudely and intolerantly, and that you would prefer not to lose her as a friend but if she's going to continue to treat you in such an un-Christianly manner then you're going to be forced to end this toxic friendship for the good of your family.

Instead of getting to continue feeling smug and superior everytime she sees you, and trying to browbeat on every level, you can just tell her that the friendship is over and that SHE's the problem. And the best part is it's all truth!







: Well, maybe not the part about "preferring not to lose her as a friend"....









Not being respectful of my right to have different beliefs is a deal-breaker for me, friendship-wise, as I think it ought to be for everyone. If she can't respect you enough to agree to disagree and leave it at that, then you don't need her friendship anyway. Instead, she keeps insulting your intelligence.
Feel free to disgree with me on this though....







But anyways,







I almost lost a good friend back in high school because her mom was like that (freaked out about my not being 'saved'). It sucks. Hopefully you can all still stay cordial.

Serendipity

ETA: We live right next to very nice, but very churchy neighbors (we joke that they're the RL Flanders' from the Simpsons, lol) in a small apt bldg of only 20 units, and they're just nosy enough (in a trying-to-help kind of way) that I've been leery of putting up any witchy-stuff. But if they were as rude as _your_ neighbors, there would be lots of "pagan" paraphanalia going up!


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:

She said "Yeah but it's such a huge difference of religion, and it affects how you live your life. I have to think about it."
Yeah you might teach her daughter to not be a judgemental lout. God forbid!


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
It feels like that is exactly what they were doing, treating me like I don't have a real religion (despite the fact that Paganism covers not only Wicca but also buddhist, hinduisum, and other ones that they had very little issue with!). They told me the God of Abraham leaves a mark on every he tocuhes and never really leaves me, and they were trying to prove I was still Christian but just didn't want to or something... No, I believe in God, but I do NOT beleive Jesus was the son of God or that we burn eternally in Hell!

And that's how I am. I don't hide it, but I'm open about it. I only bring it up when conversation requires.

That is because to them Pagan = Devil and they were on a witchhunt girlfriend!


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I was raised to believe that there were "Christians" and there were "Pagans", much in the same way that there are "Jews" and there are "gentiles". Up till a few years ago, I never even really thought of Pagan being any different. Just someone that was not a Chriatian.


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## ThinkBlu (Oct 17, 2005)

(Oops....didn't realize there were multiple pages! thought I was coming in on page one. Needless to say, I haven't read all responses. I'm going to leave this, but apoligize if it is repetitive, out of place, obsolete, etc.)

My two cents. The issue is whether or not you can or even want to salvage the friendship, the nannying issue, which at $400 a month is an 'arrangement between friends', not an employment arrangement is second and comes into play only if it is based on your friendship. (Hope that makes sense) In other words, if the two of you are not friends, I would highly advise against nannying for her, the whole arrangement just sounds like a recipe for disaster...if you want the experiance, I'm sure it would be easy to find someone to jump at the opporitunity for a full time nanny for $400 per month!

I'm sorry this happened, and a bit surprised...if religious affiliation was that important to her, you would think she would have made a point of inquiring before offering you the arrangement. That said, while I agree that the discrimination aspect of it is unfortunate, I can kind of see her point. Religion, by definition, is for many people at the core of their being effecting both *who* they are and *how* they are. I come kinda from the other side in that I am agnostic but I would definately be uncomfortable leaving my children in the care of someone who I thought *could* be directly or indirectly 'feeding' my children a religious message (not saying that is the case here). For young children who are so inquisitive and so observant, I think they are very intuned not only to what we do as adults, but also to the 'why's' that motivate us, and our religious beliefs can be a major part of that.

That being said, I do not care what a persons religion is, what I care about is the way a person is and their level of intellectual honesty. Provided that I trust that if my child were to ask (or observe) why...(why are some people mean, why does it rain, why do we celebrate Easter, etc.) that the person would respond in a way that recognizes the complexity of the questions and that different people have different beliefs and different motivations, etc., I would not be concerned what their formal belief system was. If on the other hand, when my child asked why are some people mean, my expectation was that they be taught some people are mean because [fill in the blank], then the belief system of the appointed 'caregiver' becomes very important.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

I can totally understand how dissapointing it must be to be treated like this from one of your only friends! If I were you I would be very wary of nannying her child at this point...seems like she's going to be suspicious of you no matter what.

At least you've seen her true colors...I think you should prepare yourself and take the time to explain your views to her. Tell her how hurt you are, and tell her that you are willing to continue the friendship and respect her views as long as she respects you and doesn't continue to try to convert you. If she's still disrespectful, then maybe she's not worth being friends with.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I think between the religious attack and the condescending way in which she treated you in YOUR house, you are right to done with her.

You seem very sweet...I would love to have you watch my kids. And I would pay you more than 100 dollars a week. And I would not try to convert you to Catholicism.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks everyone. I feel a lot better. It may not seem like such a big deal but it really is to me. It just infuriates and saddens me all at once. I think I'm going to try to write my feelings down on paper, then word them very carefully and respectfully, try to memorize it a little, and tell her. I don't want much to do with her until she stops acting this way. She obviously feels very superior, and I think that's a deal-breaker, too.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I know I'm coming in late, but I have to say I think you handled the situation wonderfully. I'd have wanted to rip her head off for being so terrible to you -- and in the name of Christ for pete's sake! Good grief. And I'm a Christian... (okay, a very liberal one who shudders at the mere name of Dr. Dobson, but I digress).

Thank goodness this ugliness in her came out before you were even more attached -- and your son too. And what's up with the nekkid baby thing? Mine run nekkid all the time!


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

nak

Poor mama!







Puh-leeeeeze stay away from this close-minded psycho. You don't deserve to be treated that way. I know you can find better friends than this.


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

As a practicing, evangelical christian, I just wanted to say that I think paying someone (no matter who) 100 a week to watch your kids _is a sin._


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

Although I think this woman has/is treating the OPer terribly, I have to play devil's advocate (no pun intended) here, for a minute.

With regard to money, perhaps this is truly a matter of the neighbor not making very much at all & the OPer helping her out. As if she were paying as much as she could, otherwise the neighbor would be forced to use state funding & find a daycare... or she just barely doesn't qualify for assistance, kwim? In any case, we don't know the financial situation. If I were in a position to do childcare, and knew someone who needed the help badly, I would accept that -- to help them out & to give my child/children a playmate...

Back to your regular scheduled thread...


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

It sounds like her parenting reassessment of you has more to do with your beliefs than your age. Clearly she thinks children being raised by a pagan are being horribly disserviced (endangering their eternal souls no doubt,) and maybe that's what she wants you to consider in "what kind of parent you want to be," before having more children. Certainly your age and style were things she was aware of when she thought you were a responsible parent (and that age thing 6 years is so short - maybe she's thinking of what a moron she thinks she was 6 years ago and not clearly seeing you, lol.) And while it's generous of her to be so concerned with the religious life of your current and future children, it's really unkind of her to judge and butt in. I hope you can network successfully to find other moms and kiddos to hang out with. You may even find a better paying child care arrangement =)


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

Coming into this thread late, but I just sat here and read the whole thing. Many, many hugs to you, mama. I am very open in my paganism, so nobody would even think to offer me a position like that if they were so against paganism. I can't believe that she was telling you what a great mama you were, and then when she found out that you were pagan, suddenly you weren't anymore!! *growls*

Ya know, and some people wonder why there are so many anti-Chistians out there.







:


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## Shirelle (May 22, 2006)

I'll preface this with, I have only read all of page one of this thread









I'm really sorry that you were treated that way. I've been shunned many, many times for my religious beliefs, by close friends and family members. Many Protestants feel that they need to witness to Catholics as fervently as your friend "witnessed" to you (if you can call it witnessing).

I'm trying to put myself in her shoes, and in yours. One the one hand, it sounds like she was REALLY harsh and not at all kind. On the other, I would understand her not wanting someone who was Pagan, to be a big influence on her child. They do sound like they are devout in their faith, and they feel strongly that their faith is right.

I'm rambling, but I guess I would understand their _decision_ on a parenting level, but not their treatment of you. It was uncalled for, no matter what their reasons were.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

Clearly she thinks children being raised by a pagan are being horribly disserviced (endangering their eternal souls no doubt,) and maybe that's what she wants you to consider in "what kind of parent you want to be," before having more children.
That makes sense, because she was telling me how she thinks I'm still Christian and am running from it...and trying to get me to read books as if she could bring me back to her religion. I think that might indeed be what she meant...which is even more judgemental and rude!!


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

The title of this thread has only succeeded in reminding me how damaging religious intolerance can be. And at the heart of the matter is ignorance imo. I have encountered many Christians/Muslims who have no idea what Paganism actually is, and rely upon stereotypes and misinformation to form their opinions. However, at the same time I have encountered Pagans that are intolerant towards Christians. So it does work both ways unfortunately.

At the end of the day we can only hope to educate and inform about the different faiths, but only under the condition of it being requested by the interested party. It seems that the woman who withdraw her daughter from the posters care however, was not even open to this idea, as the poster spent time explaining her faith and what it involved. There's nothing more that the poster can do. It's a shame that her own child has been denied a playmate because of religious intolerance, and the same goes for the Christian womans daughter.


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## Serrendipity (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery*
That makes sense, because she was telling me how she thinks I'm still Christian and am running from it...and trying to get me to read books as if she could bring me back to her religion. I think that might indeed be what she meant...which is even more judgemental and rude!!

Maybe you should tell her about "The Other People".







http://www.caw.org/articles/otherpeople.html

I think this article is a _little_ condescending towards door-to-door religion sales people, but it makes a great point in a funny way. And really, they do bring it on themselves, just a little.

Serendipity


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Wow, I've never thought of it like that. It does make a great point. My husband thought it was interesting too.


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## Serrendipity (Apr 12, 2006)

The Aquarian Tabernacle Church (a pagan organization right in my own backyard) has a whole illustrated pamphlet about the "Other People" that you can get to have on hand. It's rather nicer than the artical I linked to was since it's kind of intended to educate the ignorant Christian masses, lol, and not just tell a funny story. Here's the link to that:

http://www.aquatabch.org/afwe/theotherpeople.php

You have to order them in batches of 50 for $15 ($2 S&H) or 100 for $25 ($4 S&H).

If I ever got more than the occasional Mormon knocking at my door, I'd seriously consider picking some of these up!

Serendipity


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

As a Christian it saddens and angers me that a fellow Christian would treat you that way







It doesn't surprise me because it's not the first time nor the last that a Christian has decided to ignore the "judge not lest ye be judged" or "remove the log from your eye before removing the speck from your brother's eye" portions of the New Testament







I think you SHOULD teach her child not to be a judgemental lout (as a pp mentioned) if you ever do get the chance though


















I'm glad that you're feeling better. You did not deserve one BIT of that treatment! One of my only friends who I trust to watch dd is pagan and I have no issues with that. I don't see why it would even come up







As long as you're responsible and a good mother then why would it matter what religion you are? You even specified that you weren't going to be trying to convert her child to paganism... sheesh. Some people







:

love and peace.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Kind of late to this thread but just wanted to offer a







That sucks so bad. Hopefully things will resolve for the best but honestly they sound so intolerant I don't know if I'd want to be friends with someone like that.


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