# Not sure what to title this



## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

But have any of you ever been made to feel your loss is _less than_ or "not as bad" as losing a "real child"? I've come across some people, usually just strangers online, that have the "at least it was during your pregnancy because it would have hurt more if it was a real baby or if he passed away as an infant or toddler."

I then think to myself if loss is supposed to hurt more or less depending on when it takes place, then it applies to the loss of a child at any point in life. By that logic, losing a 10 year old would hurt more than losing a 2 year old, and losing a 18 year old would hurt more than losing a 10 year old. I guess this line of thinking is that the longer you "have" them and grow attached the more it hurts. But, I don't know any parent or case where one would say or think losing their toddler hurt less than losing a teenager or older child. Sometimes I have this feeling that pregnancy and birth loss are marginalized or the heartache, grief, hurt, pain, and all of the other emotions are lessened because it occurred during pregnancy.

Do we have the right to feel as hurt as another that loses their 5 year old? Are we expected to "get over it" quicker because it happened during pregnancy vs. it happening later? Is a loss at a particular time more devastating than losses at other times? There are times I feel bad for being hurt and heartbroken because it wasn't a later loss. I sometimes wonder if others that haven't experienced a loss are thinking it shouldn't hurt as much as it does because of when it took place.

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.


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## Amy&4girls (Oct 30, 2006)

I have encountered this so many times. I just do not understand this line of thinking. You have every right to grieve and hurt for your precious little one. And no one should be making you feel any differently. I think the love you have for your children just is. I don't believe it grows or lessens depending on how far along you are or how old they are. It's all-encompassing..full and complete..and unending.







I'm sorry you have experienced this.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

I haven't heard this a lot, but a couple of people have said things like at least you weren't attached or something along those lines (don't they know how much I would have LOVED to hear my baby cry, to see his face with no skin issues, to nurse him and look into his eyes??). Well, those people obviously don't know ANYTHING! I was attached before those two lines even dried on that pee test! I loved that baby and wanted him. The only thing I'm not sure about personally - would it have been harder emotionally if I was used to taking care of him and every day life with his presence there? That's the thing about death.. if someone you dont' see regularly dies, you can go about your daily life as normal, and only be affected when your thoughts focus on that person.. but if someone you live with dies, someone who is part of your every day world suddenly isn't there, it is harder to cope with, beause you're constantly reminded of them missing from your life. I think with our babies we get a little of both, but the ache of losing a child is so SOOO much deeper than losing a grandparent or anyone really.. so, honestly I think that it's just not something that a person who hasn't been there can really understand. I don't know if I've made any sense just now.. sometimes I have trouble really getting my point across!


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## PrayinFor12 (Aug 25, 2007)

I second what the previous posters said.

It's complicated. I actually had someone treat me this way who *had* miscarried.

For the most part, I think people are ignorant. But too, in an abortion-supporting country, this mindset is REALLY REALLY CONVENIENT.

You totally have the right to grieve. There is a lot to *be* grieved. Don't feel bad about being sad. It says that you love your baby - and that's wonderful.

There will always be people who are insensitive. It's usually just because they've never really thought about it. (And hopefully they'll never have to.)

It's hard though. All 4 of our kids' grandparents have reacted the way you describe. And we know atleast 2 people who won't even acknowledge our babies as our children. I hear ya.


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## heatherdeg (Dec 30, 2003)

Or the people who think that it hurts less if you terminated vs. miscarried...?

Or the people who think it hurts less if you DECIDED to terminate vs. waiting it out (even though it could've endangered your health)?

Or the people who think it hurts less if your testing showed a Trisomy because that child was "damaged goods" in their eyes?

Or the people who think that because I didn't even KNOW I was pg until 3mo and found out about the pg--then about there being problems within 2 hours of finding out I was pg somehow means I didn't fall in love with the life growing inside of me...? Like somehow it wasn't "real" yet? Hello?? It was plenty real--I just had no idea it was pregnancy until the last 2 weeks of it!

I just can't deal with people anymore.

I lost my child. How I lost my child or what condition my child was in is of ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE. I lost my child. How long I knew about it wasn't relevant. It doesn't change that I HAD A CHILD GROWING INSIDE OF ME!

Holy crap. I just can't deal with people.

Oh--and a few years ago my cousin & his wife lost a baby born preemie and died within 3-4 days while the mother was still unconcious in ICU. Two months later, she still wasn't ready to attend family functions (in this case, a wedding). I still remember my grandmother crucifying her for "milking it" because 1) the mother never even met the baby; and 2) the baby didn't live long enough for her to "love" her. I promptly told my grandmother that I guessed I'd better hope for my son (then 18mo) to die sooner rather than at age 5 or 10 so it wouldn't hurt so bad--huh? Ugh...

It's like they can't just feel some level of sympathy for you--like JUST enough to keep their damn mouths shut. Because, ya know... there's nothing any more special about YOU--you should be lucky you don't have it worse!







:

Kiss. my entire. a$$.


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## homewithtwinsmama (Jan 5, 2005)

Yep, my husband got this from his SISTER at their uncle's funeral. How it was a meaningless death cause "you didn't even know her". She was 18 beers into her usual day, but my husband had a panic attack and permanently disowned her. We now never attend family events where she will be present because as usual his parents sided with her.














:



































:







: splat


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Love for a child is absolute. Though mothers love their child a little more each day, that's only because the heart keeps growing bigger. But the love is complete from the start. Losing a child is losing your whole heart, no matter how old the child or fetus was.

hugs to you.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I had exactly one person tell me that the baby I lost probably had chromosomal issues, so the loss was "probably for the best". That person was my mom.

And I love my mom, but I basically couldn't speak to her for a week after that.

(For the record: "It was probably a chromosomal problem" is a medical fact that means, among other things, that nothing I did or didn't do hurt my baby. "so it's probably for the best" is a dumb and hurtful thing to say.)

Sometimes, when people are bad at dealing with grief, when they fear having to confront your pain, they choose to try and deny that pain. It is not about beliefs about when life begins, it is about big stinky fear. If they acknowledged your pain, they might have to do something about it, they might have to feel something, and that wouldn't be any fun in this case, so instead they tell you that you shouldn't be hurting. That way they don't have to do anything.

Some people can be moved past this state (usually by painful experiences of their own). Others are stuck there.

If anyone has said this to you, I am so very sorry.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
I had exactly one person tell me that the baby I lost probably had chromosomal issues, so the loss was "probably for the best". That person was my mom.

Mine, too. Wow. Maybe they went to the same Mom-school?









I know she was just trying to comfort herself, really... and me, I suppose, the only way she knew how. I've already forgiven everyone already in advance for everything they say to me over these past few days. Because I've learned, standing inside this circle now, instead of outside of it as I once was... there are no words. There is nothing you can say, and nothing you can do.

I once thought that judgment would have been correct. I would have thought that losing a "live" child - one that had lived outside of the womb - would hurt more. Or that losing a child you'd raised for a time and gotten to know would hurt more. Today, I wouldn't make that judgment. This pain carries the face of the dark mother we don't often see or acknowledge in our world. Death and birth are so connected, and life so tenuous. We like to forget that. Or deny it.

But the pain of losing a life, any life, at any stage of that life, I've discovered, can't be measured with time like some yardstick. It is a timeless moment and a timeless pain.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I'm sorry people have been so crappy.

I hope I never find out the difference. I know what it is like to lose my son after his birth. I do not want to find out if that loss hurts more or less if I were to lose the 23 week fetus I now carry or my 4 yo precious son who is currently playing a video game.

I could have never imagined the pain until I suffered the loss (though, I know I tried when others have lost children) but, as you know, you just can't imagine it until you've been here.

When people say stupid stuff to me I just find it is easier to say a prayer for their dumbness (pardon my "french") and pray that they never know what it is really like. I choose to listen to their intent behind the words - if they are trying to be supportive but express it in a really stupid way I focus on the fact that they cared enough to at least say something (I hate it when people won't even acknowledge my son's death). If their intent is not meant to be caring but "informative" or they think they know better I do not waste my time on it - I can't. To protect myself and my family I just let it roll off my back because I won't let them hurt me. I learned that trick from many years of heartache from other losses and I do not want to waste my time on anger when I can focus on healing through my grief (learning to live with it) and find joy again.

People suck sometimes but I've found there are plenty that make up for the rotten ones.


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## Authentic_Mother (Feb 25, 2007)

I get that sometimes too.
Most of the time though I get a lot of weird looks and assurance when I try to explain that I wished I had had a still birth. I know it sounds disgusting to envy that but I only do because it was my only chance to experience kicking and moving baby. I have never nor will I ever feel a baby move in my womb. Because I lost him so soon into the pregnancy, it's hard for me sometimes to really feel how REAL it was. I have ot look at pictures and watch the video of his beating heart. My time with him was so fleeting that even if he still had to die I just wished I could have had a little more time.








People really REALLY dont get that though and they usually get angry or disgusted when I speak about it...so I just dont. Only my hubby seems to understand.


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## Beckula (Mar 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heatherdeg* 
Or the people who think that it hurts less if you terminated vs. miscarried...?

Or the people who think it hurts less if you DECIDED to terminate vs. waiting it out (even though it could've endangered your health)?

Or the people who think it hurts less if your testing showed a Trisomy because that child was "damaged goods" in their eyes?

Or the people who think that because I didn't even KNOW I was pg until 3mo and found out about the pg--then about there being problems within 2 hours of finding out I was pg somehow means I didn't fall in love with the life growing inside of me...? Like somehow it wasn't "real" yet? Hello?? It was plenty real--I just had no idea it was pregnancy until the last 2 weeks of it!

I just can't deal with people anymore.

I lost my child. How I lost my child or what condition my child was in is of ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE. I lost my child. How long I knew about it wasn't relevant. It doesn't change that I HAD A CHILD GROWING INSIDE OF ME!

Holy crap. I just can't deal with people.

Oh--and a few years ago my cousin & his wife lost a baby born preemie and died within 3-4 days while the mother was still unconcious in ICU. Two months later, she still wasn't ready to attend family functions (in this case, a wedding). I still remember my grandmother crucifying her for "milking it" because 1) the mother never even met the baby; and 2) the baby didn't live long enough for her to "love" her. I promptly told my grandmother that I guessed I'd better hope for my son (then 18mo) to die sooner rather than at age 5 or 10 so it wouldn't hurt so bad--huh? Ugh...

It's like they can't just feel some level of sympathy for you--like JUST enough to keep their damn mouths shut. Because, ya know... there's nothing any more special about YOU--you should be lucky you don't have it worse!







:

Kiss. my entire. a$$.

yes, just, YES. Only mine was ectopic and I had my test 2 weeks before I had the surgery that ended my baby's life. Regardless of the viability, he was my baby. No one, NO ONE, in the hospital treated me like a grieving Mother. My Baby was just a problem that needed taking care of. My cousin actually had the chutzpah to tell me "It was better this way since you are so poor and all." People just completely suck about pregnancy loss which is just shocking since it is so much more common than I think we are led to believe.


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## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

each person's grief is their own. no one else's. no one's grief is better or worse or bigger or smaller than anothers'. Never more true than for all 40 people in my grief class. some long time spouses, some died suddenly, some long illnesses, some suicides, some children, some adult children, some babies, some fetuses. for those of us with children/miscarriage losses our grief is more for hope, or what 'would have been'. it's tough. not tougher than anyone else's. different. and all our own.

the treatments are the same though. MUST put your feelings into ACTION. make something. write. to yourself. make a memory book. collage. paint a rock. quilt with pictures







or clothing.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cuddlebaby* 
each person's grief is their own. no one else's. no one's grief is better or worse or bigger or smaller than anothers'. Never more true than for all 40 people in my grief class. some long time spouses, some died suddenly, some long illnesses, some suicides, some children, some adult children, some babies, some fetuses. for those of us with children/miscarriage losses our grief is more for hope, or what 'would have been'. it's tough. not tougher than anyone else's. different. and all our own.

the treatments are the same though. MUST put your feelings into ACTION. make something. write. to yourself. make a memory book. collage. paint a rock. quilt with pictures







or clothing.

What you said in another thread made SO much sense to me. Grief is a feeling... Mourning is ACTION. I started a blog. Writing has always been therapeutic to me, and writing it down has already made a difference. Thank you for the suggestion!


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## PrayinFor12 (Aug 25, 2007)

Great point-out about action...

I started a prayer journal after losing my first. Suddenly, I HAD to talk to God. But I was so distraught, my brain couldn't force thoughts out. Writing "To God", then just blabbing, worked SO well that I still do it. It's been nearly 2 years of 3-10 entries a week. Best action I took I think.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

i've had most people say that sort of thing to me, and i understand that they are trying to make me feel better, so i don't get mad at them.

however, i really do feel that way. i am so grateful, feel so blessed i even got as far as i did. to go so long wondering why you can't get pregnant, then to finally get pregnant and lose the baby... if it had to happen that way, i am glad that it did happen early. b/c i really don't think i'd be able to survive it if i got to 39 weeks and had a loss or had to deal with the death of a toddler.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
if it had to happen that way, i am glad that it did happen early. b/c i really don't think i'd be able to survive it if i got to 39 weeks and had a loss or had to deal with the death of a toddler.

You know...I don't know. My midwife lost her baby to SIDS years ago at 8 weeks. And my mother lost a child - hit by a car - when she was almost three. And I've now given birth to a stillborn baby at 39 weeks, and those other two experiences, I once would have judged as "worse" than my experience before having started this journey. But I don't know if we can measure the loss by time spent, really. Love is love.


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## Catubodua (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
You know...I don't know. My midwife lost her baby to SIDS years ago at 8 weeks. And my mother lost a child - hit by a car - when she was almost three. And I've now given birth to a stillborn baby at 39 weeks, and those other two experiences, I once would have judged as "worse" than my experience before having started this journey. But I don't know if we can measure the loss by time spent, really. Love is love.

i know what you are saying, but i am constantly amazed that anyone who's gone through that is able to still function at all. i've read many posts where the ladies say they almost see their "shell" going through and doing things like getting on with their life while their real self sits and mourns.

i just know that for me, if it had to happen i'm glad it happened when it did.

that's not to say that others shouldn't feel differently. clearly, we all have our own level of grief and how we deal with it. and, i agree that the amount of time we're pregnant doesn't factor in to it.

i was ok last week. today, i am a weepy mess. who knows how it will be tomorrow or next month or whenever.


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## MI_Dawn (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i know what you are saying, but i am constantly amazed that anyone who's gone through that is able to still function at all. i've read many posts where the ladies say they almost see their "shell" going through and doing things like getting on with their life while their real self sits and mourns.

i just know that for me, if it had to happen i'm glad it happened when it did.

that's not to say that others shouldn't feel differently. clearly, we all have our own level of grief and how we deal with it. and, i agree that the amount of time we're pregnant doesn't factor in to it.

i was ok last week. today, i am a weepy mess. who knows how it will be tomorrow or next month or whenever.


I understand what you're saying, though. I play the mind games with myself... _"It could have been worse. Could have been ALL the kids and DH in a car accident or a plane crash..."_ And it's not like the tragedy has to end. Something else horrible could happen at any moment. Let's not forget that. I mean, if the universe is cruel enough to do THIS...

I try not to play that game too often, though. It's dangerous. And painful as hell.

I'm sorry for your loss, mama.


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## SMR (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catubodua* 
i know what you are saying, but i am constantly amazed that anyone who's gone through that is able to still function at all. i've read many posts where the ladies say they almost see their "shell" going through and doing things like getting on with their life while their real self sits and mourns.

i just know that for me, if it had to happen i'm glad it happened when it did.

that's not to say that others shouldn't feel differently. clearly, we all have our own level of grief and how we deal with it. and, i agree that the amount of time we're pregnant doesn't factor in to it.

i was ok last week. today, i am a weepy mess. who knows how it will be tomorrow or next month or whenever.

I feel the same way. Dresden died at 39 weeks... and when I got pregnant again, I hoped that if this baby was going to leave me that they do it sooner rather than later. I NEVER want to hold my dead 8lb baby in my arms again. I'd be much better coping with an early loss. It's still sad, my sister in law just had a miscarriage at 8 weeks the other day, and after getting off the phone with her I sobbed and sobbed.. any loss is the loss of a future you envisisoned, so even an 8 week loss takes away those hopes and dreams. big hugs to everyone! I wish none of us were here.


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## Vespertina (Sep 30, 2006)

Thank you for responding, ladies. This has all given me a lot to think about.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MI_Dawn* 
You know...I don't know. My midwife lost her baby to SIDS years ago at 8 weeks. And my mother lost a child - hit by a car - when she was almost three. And I've now given birth to a stillborn baby at 39 weeks, and those other two experiences, I once would have judged as "worse" than my experience before having started this journey. *But I don't know if we can measure the loss by time spent, really. Love is love.*

Regarding this, I've often wondered if I have the "right" to say "I understand what you're going through" to someone that experienced a loss of a live child. There are times that I think stillbirth/pregnancy loss isn't viewed as being same as a loss that occurs later on. I worry when I say I understand what one is going through when they suffer a loss of a child because my loss may not be counted as a "true loss" because it occurred during pregnancy.

I definitely agree with the bold.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Someone who suffered several losses once told me:

"If a couple is engaged, and the woman dies, is it less b/c they weren't married yet?"

For some reason that analogy really stuck w/ me. As if the man is supposed to get on w/ his life or not grieve for that woman b/c they weren't married yet.


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## *Jade* (Mar 13, 2007)

This is what I am secretly afraid of, that people will say that our miscarriage wasn't that bad because I'd only known I was pregnant for 4 days.


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## Katica (Jan 13, 2008)

Although, nobody said it outwardly, this was my impression as well. I felt like b/c I wasn`t really far along I didn`t have the right to grieve. At least, not for long. A baby is a baby, no matter how far along are you when you lose him/her. I find that those who`ve also suffered a loss are not the same...they understand.


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## mamacita angelica (Oct 6, 2006)

it is not a grief competition. no one wins by comparing their losses. it just ends with alienation. on some level, i feel like i have lost so much since my daughter died. among those things, i have lost a lot of respect for our society on a whole. i almost expect people to say the most oblivious thing. sometimes i try to take comfort that people don't know what we are going through, because it means they haven't lost a child. but it is incredibly disappointing that mourning is even supposed to be done in a new york minute, or on someone else's idea of acceptable. it is disheartening.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Semper Gumby* 
Regarding this, *I've often wondered if I have the "right" to say "I understand what you're going through"* to someone that experienced a loss of a live child.

*There are times that I think stillbirth/pregnancy loss isn't viewed as being same as a loss that occurs later on.* I worry when I say I understand what one is going through when they suffer a loss of a child because my loss may not be counted as a "true loss" because it occurred during pregnancy.

no, you don't have that right. and no, it's not the same. i'm not saying that one is "better" or "worse," just that no loss is the same. the only way you could know the difference would be to experience both. even that, though would only apply to you. no one else.

i worked with grieving families for a long time, and to be honest, the biggest thing i learned from that is that no matter what the situation is, no one can "know" another persons grief. it doesn't matter if they lost a loved one in the same way. it doesn't matter if the lost the same loved one. every single person grieves in a different way. every single person has a different experience when dealing with loss. trying to compare grief is a bad idea. it does not encourage healing, or even help other people understand you personal grief.

don't think that i'm downplaying miscarriage/stillbirth at all. regardless of what the rest of the world thinks, the grief that you feel for the loss of your baby is real.

many







s. i'm still dealing with my 5 week miscarriage 4 years later.


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## organicpapayamama (Dec 5, 2008)

this sucks big time. It has happened to me. I lost my DD at almost 21 weeks, no she was not term but she was perfectly formed. She had a terminal condition and it was hopeless... I choose to induce as opposed to going to term or waiting for it to happen. this was the right choice for me. when I speak of DD to my relatives ( and they knew I was pregnant) they said "daughter? what daughter?) this upsets me so much. just because they never met her or saw a picture of her or because she didnt take a breath of air or have a birth certificate issues doesnt mean I didnt have her or she didnt exist. And YES, I DO and always will have a daughter. Someone outside of the family went on to tell me "dont worry you will have another one". I seriously wanted to punch her in the face. I dont care if I have 10,000 children I will always be short one. sheesh, people dont get it!!


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## caro113 (Aug 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Someone who suffered several losses once told me:

"If a couple is engaged, and the woman dies, is it less b/c they weren't married yet?"

For some reason that analogy really stuck w/ me. As if the man is supposed to get on w/ his life or not grieve for that woman b/c they weren't married yet.










Whenever DP mentions his fiance and their daughter, people do say that. "well he didn't loss his daughter because she was never born. And they weren't actually married" ... Honestly, I think the fact that they weren't married, the fact that he had to buy the rings by himself so she could be buried with the ring she picked out for their wedding, made it much worse for him.

I hate how people think miscarriage is different from stillbirth which is different than an infant or toddler dying. Yes, from a medical standpoint it's different, but from a grieving stand point, it's exactly the same. I don't get why people don't understand that.

To the PPs: I am sorry for your loses and I hope you have been able to grieve without all those loser's comments swirling around in your head.


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## maemaemama (Oct 10, 2007)

i agree that any loss is personal and unique and the feeling is never better or worse. i do think that the loss of my 2 year old would be much harder than my pregnancy loss and it has been really really difficult. but that doesn't give me any right to say that another person's pregnancy loss is more or less difficult. it is their experience and they relate it to every thing else they have experienced in their own life. my sister had an early miscarriage and she admits that she grieved heavily at first but since it hasn't effected her life too much. she wonders if this is because she's had 3 successful pregnancies since. maybe, or maybe it's just that we all experience loss differently and to different degrees and cope in many different ways. i don't know. but i don't think one can ever expect to understand another person's grief. and i think that's fair to say to someone if they say something to you. they will never be able to understand or evaluate your pain because they are not you.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Yes, I understand the feeling. People can suck. One friend of mine was positive that once I had a living child I would no longer grieve for my lost son. It doesn't work like that.

And the "which grief is worse" game that some folks play? Horrendous.


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