# Feel bad for my nephew but feel bad for my sister....



## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

My nephew is 6 months old. He was circ'd at about a week old. My sister and her husband didn't want to circ....but BIL was circ'd at the age of 6 because of recurring infections. I explained to my sister that it should've never happened, but BIL remembers going under anesthetic, and how much pain he was when he woke up and for WEEKS afterwards, blah blah blah. Still don't agree with them, but anyways, my sister let BIL make the choice because he was the one "traumatized".

So when my nephew was a week old, my sister brought him to the pediatric floor of the hospital. She thought the doctor said to meet her in the pediatric department so she went to the nurses station and explained that she was there to get DS circ'd. A couple of the nurses made the "pffffft" noise and turned their backs and the one nurse said "Umm...we have absolutely NOTHING to do with mutilating little boys here, so you can take him somewhere else". My sister burst into tears and went back down the hallway where she ran into the doctor who was doing the circumcision. My sister was already suffering from a bit of PPD but that pushed her over the edge.

I am all for genital integrity and am very much pro-intact, but I can't believe how the nurses handled it. They could've made the effort to explain to my sister the benefits of being intact, or the risks of circumcision, instead they pushed my sister deeper into the PPD hole.


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## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

I feel badly for your sister because of her PPD but I love the that nurses stood up for babies and seemed totally horrified by the prospect of circumcision on their floor. That's a hospital I'd feel totally comfortable birthing in.

And if your BIL was the one who wanted it done, why didn't HE take his son to do it? Why on earth did your one week PP sister have to do it???


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer3141* 
I feel badly for your sister because of her PPD but I love the that nurses stood up for babies and seemed totally horrified by the prospect of circumcision on their floor. That's a hospital I'd feel totally comfortable birthing in.

And if your BIL was the one who wanted it done, why didn't HE take his son to do it? Why on earth did your one week PP sister have to do it???

I gave birth in the same hospital and I wasn't even asked if my DS's was going to be circ'd. There's only one doctor out of the 8 that deliver there that will do the circ's.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennifer3141* 
And if your BIL was the one who wanted it done, why didn't HE take his son to do it? Why on earth did your one week PP sister have to do it???

BIL was working.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

Sheesh, we anti circ RNs are pretty much damned if we do, damned if we don't


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## laurelg (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm sorry your sister had PPD, but I LOVE what those nurses said. LOVE it.


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Sheesh, we anti circ RNs are pretty much damned if we do, damned if we don't









A courteous "Sorry, we don't do circumcisions here" equals not damned.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I'm sorry that someone was so rude to your sister. My mother is an intactivist and was a maternity nurse for a very long time. She never would have treated someone in that manner. It is not helpful to make nasty rude comments to strangers about circ. That usually only pushes people in the opposite direction. Your sister probably wouldn't have fled if the nurse had offered her some information in a kind and caring way.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Sheesh, we anti circ RNs are pretty much damned if we do, damned if we don't









You know, I'm anti-circ and dream of becoming a nurse some day, but I can never imagine speaking with another mother like that.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
You know, I'm anti-circ and dream of becoming a nurse some day, but I can never imagine speaking with another mother like that.

Ditto--I work in a hospital postpartum unit, and start nursing school in January, I would never talk to someone like that.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

I hear over and over ON THIS FORUM, that we, as health care workers, need to stand up for babies and against circ. That's exactly what these nurses did!!! It was a visceral response. Just like we all have with this issue.

Yes it was rude, yes there are better ways to do it, but I have a feeling that if this wasn't involving someone's direct family member, this board would be thrilled with that resonse.

I often feel like my quiet "polite" intactivism isn't doin' the job. It's not enough to "not ask" about circ. It's not doing the trick to provide them links and resources and education! I'm on the front lines here. The ones who want to do it, DO IT ANYWAY! It's very discouraging when you do it the "right" way and it doesn't work. But I guess it's different when it's a theoretical issue and you don't have to confront this issue in a concrete way every time you go to work! Those nurses said what I feel like saying every time I have a family that chooses to circ.

And no I absolutely do not talk to anyone that way, but if anything could make me do it, it would be the issue of circumcision.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Well, if they have the info and still do it, it's their legal right as a parent. I wish it weren't but that's the truth. Short of physically preventing them from circ'ing, what else can you do?


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## LaffNowCryLater (May 2, 2003)

Yeah, it was unprofessional but at least they stood up for the poor babe when his own parents wouldn't


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Your story has me so conflicted and I think illustrates how hard this struggle is for many of us. We must condemn the practice but at the same time it could cause incidents like the one you describe. And while you don't want to hurt someone close to you (like a sibling) you want to make sure they don't hurt someone else close to you either. It's just so messed up.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Everyone needs to realize that this happened in Canada where the circ rate is only around 10%. It is looked upon by most people, medical or not, as unnecessary at the least and as mutilation at the most. It is a very different climate. The nurses were rude but I know I would be tempted to say the same thing. Many Mother's to be that I have spoken to are insulted and appalled that I would even ask them if they would do such a thing to their precious boys.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fellow Traveler* 
Your story has me so conflicted and I think illustrates how hard this struggle is for many of us. We must condemn the practice but at the same time it could cause incidents like the one you describe. And while you don't want to hurt someone close to you (like a sibling) you want to make sure they don't hurt someone else close to you either. It's just so messed up.

I thoroughly agree.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
I often feel like my quiet "polite" intactivism isn't doin' the job. It's not enough to "not ask" about circ. It's not doing the trick to provide them links and resources and education! I'm on the front lines here. The ones who want to do it, DO IT ANYWAY! It's very discouraging when you do it the "right" way and it doesn't work.

The baby in the OP was still circ'd, so being nasty to her sister didn't help, either. I'm totally anti-circ myself. I can't even imagine how I'd react if a family member did it. But, I still don't see what something like the reaction in the OP is supposed to accomplish.


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## innle (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The baby in the OP was still circ'd, so being nasty to her sister didn't help, either. I'm totally anti-circ myself. I can't even imagine how I'd react if a family member did it. But, I still don't see what something like the reaction in the OP is supposed to accomplish.









:
As they say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

That poor little boy


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

I am sorry your sister is suffering. I do think they made a classic fear based decision, which is rarely one that will bring peace. It would have been nice if the nurse had gently asked her if she was fully informed about circ. She may have been swayed. We don't automatically inherit every problem our parents have!

If I was a nurse I would feel like saying exactly the same thing, but I would hope I would be more diplomatic. I met Marilyn Milos and she is incredibly sweet and diplomatic in her approach.


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## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *innle* 
As they say, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

That poor little boy









And his poor mom!


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I just bet there was a fair chance those nurses could have changed the outcome with compassionate education.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

This is Canada. If she had gotten as far as having an appointment made and be in the hospital looking for where she is supposed to go. She will have had to gotten past her doctor to find one who would do it unless she had one already, and even ones that do do it are usually pretty even in their presentation of the facts, though there are still some pro circ docs around. Family that will most likely discourage it. Sometimes they even have to travel out of province to get it done, though that doesn't seem to be the case here. They would of had to pay for it to be done, no provinces pay for it. I can see how these nurses were disgusted at her determination to get this baby circed, you have to be pretty determined here. It's not just a simple easy thing they do in the hospital before you leave. You have to search it out. I'm not defending the nurses but I can empathize with their disgust.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

I am taking my hat of in front of those brave nurses! It should have been a much better clue for your sister than "it's better to not circ because....". I mean they realized that her mind was made up and if anything could stop her...ANYTHING AT ALL...that would do it.


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

I don't see how it was the nurses' job to make it any easier on her to circ that baby.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
You know, I'm anti-circ and dream of becoming a nurse some day, but I can never imagine speaking with another mother like that.

I would imagine it's because you haven't seen babies screaming in agony on a daily basis. That would sure do that for me.


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

Personally I think I'd have the same reaction there. As someone else said, this isn't the US where its offered and paid for and pretty much any doc will do it before even leaving the hospital.

I also feel bad for your sister but really....she made a decision based on fear of something that theres a 99% chance of never happening. She obviously still didn't want to do it, but she did it anyway. Had she been totally sure, she wouldn't have been so upset by the whole thing.

And as for both of them, in what world does it make sense to say "it hurt a lot and I remember being in so much pain for so long..." make you go hmmm...well then, lets just do that to our newborn baby. I really don't understand the reasoning there. What, since they wont remember it doesn't matter anymore? Yes, it does. He didn't even have to be awake for his!

My best friends husband was circ'd at 8 years old. He doesn't like to talk about it so my friend isn't sure why, but she's pretty sure it was either due to repeat infections or phimosis-ie he wasn't retractable. She thinks its the former though, apparently his mom was obsessive with cleanliness and even if she wasn't retracting and cleaning under there, she most definately used a lot of soap. Anyway, I was her surrogate, so the conversation came up with me in the middle of it. He said it was fine, not circing.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
I hear over and over ON THIS FORUM, that we, as health care workers, need to stand up for babies and against circ. That's exactly what these nurses did!!!


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyBoysBlue* 
This is Canada. If she had gotten as far as having an appointment made and be in the hospital looking for where she is supposed to go. She will have had to gotten past her doctor to find one who would do it unless she had one already, and even ones that do do it are usually pretty even in their presentation of the facts, though there are still some pro circ docs around. Family that will most likely discourage it. Sometimes they even have to travel out of province to get it done, though that doesn't seem to be the case here. They would of had to pay for it to be done, no provinces pay for it. I can see how these nurses were disgusted at her determination to get this baby circed, you have to be pretty determined here. It's not just a simple easy thing they do in the hospital before you leave. You have to search it out. I'm not defending the nurses but I can empathize with their disgust.

No no no no no. There are 8 doctors who deliver babies in the hospital. The doctor who delivered my sisters baby was the one who circ'd him. You don't get to choose who delivers your baby. It is whoever is on call the day you go into labor. If it had been any of the other seven doctors, I'm sure he wouldn't have been circ'd. Sister did NOT have to go seek out a doctor. She delivered, doc asked her if she was going to circ, and doctor had the appointment made within a couple of hours.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
I would imagine it's because you haven't seen babies screaming in agony on a daily basis. That would sure do that for me.

Like one of the PP said.....the circ rate here is about 10% and I'm actually guessing it's even less. I only know a handful of people who have circ'd their boys. The rest have left the intact. My DS was in the NICU for 5 days and I was with him from 7 am - 9 pm and I didn't see one single baby go in for a circumcision and that's where they do them.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yulia_R* 
I am taking my hat of in front of those brave nurses! It should have been a much better clue for your sister than "it's better to not circ because....". I mean they realized that her mind was made up and if anything could stop her...ANYTHING AT ALL...that would do it.

I don't see how it helped though! My sister is EASILY swayed by medical authorities. She's one that will trust ANYTHING a nurse or doctor says. She was so emotionally distraught after what those nurses said that she said she could barely even walk. She just put her son in the doctors arms, sat down and cried. I'm 99.9% sure that if one of the nurses had spoke with her and asked her if she was informed on the risks of circumcision and benefits of being intact, she would've changed her mind. The ONLY reason she did it was because she didn't want him to have to be circ'd when he was older because of the trauma BIL went through when he had to get circ'd when he was 6 years old.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Obviously things are not the same across Canada. I know that usually it isn't easy to have done. Unless you are unlucky enough to have a doctor that preforms them. You made my point though; out of the 8 docs your sister was seeing only the one she got was the procirc one. That is pretty good numbers though not good enough to save your nephew.

Added: She also had to go back to the hospital when the baby was a week old. I have heard on hear many times on here how people wished that parents in the US had to wait a week or month before the baby could be circed. That way the parents would get to see how intact is normal. Another reason why Canadian circ rates have dropped so much faster the the American rates.


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## rlmueller (May 22, 2009)

Appearantly tact, PATIENT TEACHING, patient care, empathy--all went out the window and shame on anyone advocating that kind of behavior pro circ or not--including this board!

I'm sorry it was handled so poorly. I'm sorry for your sister, the PPD, the baby, and the BIL. The patient teaching should have been done when the subject was broached, if not then, before the circ, if not then, tactfully by the nurses wjth open-ended questions and care as to a new mother's state of mind.

There are so-called BF advocates who can be just as bad.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I'd love to give my kudos to those nurses. I just LOVE that they told the truth to your SIL. Honestly, I can't BELIEVE your SIL and her husband let the BIL/uncle make the decision. Duh! On the less than 2% chance that that baby boy will have recurrent infections and get a urologist (in Canada! In Canada!!! current day...), wow, he's already circ'd. How interesting it will be if he gets recurrent infections at the age of 6 and they won't have anything to cut off of him to "fix" them.

I'm in Florida and recently I was at an event and a pregnant lady told a story about calling around to interview area pediatricians who would accept non-vaccinating patients. One pediatrician she called said she would take her and then the pediatrician asked her about circumcision. This mom was not yet sure, as she had circ'd her previous sons on her husband's advice and now she was unsure. The pediatrician said that she was strongly against the mutilation of baby boys. Though I don't think the pediatrician swayed this mom (she was angry that the pediatrician had been so blunt), but I don't think anything would have. But, I have been looking for a foreskin-friendly pediatrician in our area and so I asked for the pediatrician's name and info, told the mom why I wanted the info and I am going to call the pediatrician next week. I LOVE that this pediatrician is so upfront about her beliefs.


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## Mama2Jesse (Jan 5, 2009)

You know, most MDC-ers are pretty well intactivist, I think. What kind of responses did you expect? Really, you poke a beehive, you're going to get stung. I truly am not trying to be brisk, but.... you know, for some of us the idea of circumcision makes us ill. And we hear alllll these stories about mamas scared to death the doc will circ their sns without consent, or retract when their back is turned, or fighting it out with DP over their child's penis.... so yes, some of us want to stand up and cheer those nurses on. Am I sorry the mama felt bad, sort of.... but hello, warning signs and red flags.

This probably isn't very big of me, but I feel sorrow and empathy for the child who had part of his genitals removed without his consent. I am sorry his mama has PPD, but I can't help but want to tell women to find their backbones and do their research on behalf of their unborn.

I mean yes, fine, you don't like confrontation and you just go with the flow... well, once you're a mama you don't have that luxury. Kid depends on YOU. We all make mistakes, but you have got to own them, admit it, and learn better for next time. Not push blame on others and continue to ignore your role in things.

For example, if you flip your kid front facing at four months, people are going to ask you WTH you are thinking. If your feelings get hurt, well, tough cookies. Kid's safety comes before grown adult emotions.


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## babygrant (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
Honestly, I can't BELIEVE your SIL and her husband let the BIL/uncle make the decision.


No no, my sister let her HUSBAND make the choice. My brother in law.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Jesse* 
You know, most MDC-ers are pretty well intactivist, I think. What kind of responses did you expect? Really, you poke a beehive, you're going to get stung. I truly am not trying to be brisk, but.... you know, for some of us the idea of circumcision makes us ill. And we hear alllll these stories about mamas scared to death the doc will circ their sns without consent, or retract when their back is turned, or fighting it out with DP over their child's penis.... so yes, some of us want to stand up and cheer those nurses on. Am I sorry the mama felt bad, sort of.... but hello, warning signs and red flags.

This probably isn't very big of me, but I feel sorrow and empathy for the child who had part of his genitals removed without his consent. I am sorry his mama has PPD, but I can't help but want to tell women to find their backbones and do their research on behalf of their unborn.

I mean yes, fine, you don't like confrontation and you just go with the flow... well, once you're a mama you don't have that luxury. Kid depends on YOU. We all make mistakes, but you have got to own them, admit it, and learn better for next time. Not push blame on others and continue to ignore your role in things.

For example, if you flip your kid front facing at four months, people are going to ask you WTH you are thinking. If your feelings get hurt, well, tough cookies. Kid's safety comes before grown adult emotions.

Ummm...I am an intactavist. I am very against circumcision. I explained to my sister about how easy it is to care for an intact penis, how infections are treated differently now adays, etc, etc, etc, but my BIL is still horrified about being circ'd at a late age.

Oy oy oy. Should've just kept my mouth shut and vented somewhere else. I am not advocating circumcision. I was simply questioning how the nurses handled it. So because I choose to vaccinate my children, if I walked into the hospital for the vaccinations and a nurse yelled at me "We do NOT shoot harmful chemicals into babies here!!!!" that would've been ok???? My sister did lots of research....but in case you haven't googled lately...it's just as easy to find pro-circ articles as it is the other way.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Where you able to give her print outs about circ/intact?

I am so torn here honestly I feel way more sorry for your nephew than your sister. She knew what she was doing was wrong yet did it any way I would think that played a bigger part in her ppd than what the nurses did. They could have handled it a little better I guess but when you feel so strongly about this issue it is so hard to sugar coat it.

What has your sister said about it since does she have regrets?


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## Mama2Jesse (Jan 5, 2009)

That is not what I am saying at all. You said earlier how easily she is swayed by medical authorites, and since most mamas get one horrified nurse or ped who hisses "HIS PENIS WILL ROT IF YOU DON'T CIRCUMCISE!" (pretty much, lol), and when you talked about her OB scheduling the appointment, I didn't think I was reaching too far to assume she'd gone on that and her DH's experience alone.

And the verdict is still out on vaccines. Who knows, we all research and hope we've made the right choice. There is no medical reason for RIC. Apples and oranges there, y'know?

No offense meant. I just am hoping she will trust her instincts more and not let other people get so under her skin.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I have to ask why any physician would proceed with a circumcision with the mother obviously not in a proper mental state to consent to the surgery?


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babygrant* 
Oy oy oy. Should've just kept my mouth shut and vented somewhere else.

I've been anti-circumcision ever since I knew what it was, but the fanaticism I've found on this forum has actually made me more tolerant of those who practice it, just as an emotional reaction.

I don't believe those nurses had purely good intentions. They probably thought they did, but I would bet their concern for babies is all tangled up with the pleasure of being self-righteous and rude.

Moreover, it seems as if their action had no good effect. The baby was circumcized anyway, right? And now someone is more miserable than she was.

So, no purely good intention, no good outcome--I judge their actions negatively.


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Jesse* 
For example, if you flip your kid front facing at four months, people are going to ask you WTH you are thinking. If your feelings get hurt, well, tough cookies. Kid's safety comes before grown adult emotions.

False dichotomy. It's not _either_ "mind your own business and let that adult put her baby at risk" _or_ "Say 'What the hell are you thinking?". You can speak up and be as considerate of the adult's feelings as possible.

Remember, children's safety can be affected by an adult's emotions. If you spoke rudely to a woman who'd flipped her baby ff and she started crying as she was driving away and got into an accident and her baby was hurt, would you still say "tough cookies"?

In almost all situations kindness, warmth, and courtesy help people, while rudeness and hostility do not.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I feel pity for all involved. For the baby having to go through having a circ, for the sister for having a low blow to her PPD, and for the BIL being so traumatized by a more than likely unnecessary circ that he felt the need to continue the cycle by having it done to his son. The nurses were rude and unprofessional, but I can not fault them at all for that reaction. If something feels as viscerally wrong to someone as circumcision does to so many, they are going to have a strong reaction to it.


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## Lkg4dmcrc (Jan 6, 2006)

I am generally confused. If you gave them all of the circ info before hand and then they still decided to go back a week later and do it, why do you believe that they would be swayed by nurses in a hospital to not do it just because they were polite about it? They already had the information and they chose to do it, right?

Doctors and nurses speak poorly to patients. I witness it on a daily basis.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

When you guys have 1) had to hold pressure on a baby's penis for an hour in hopes that his circ would stop bleeding (It didn't BTW had to use topical Epinepherine)
2) seen a baby's penis turn black minutes after a circ (I was also his nurse later when we took him off life support because he had an fatal imune deficiency)
3) seen babies over and over again who won't breastfeed because they are in pain due to circ (much to the confusion of their parents)
4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

THEN, I will get that YOU personally would never talk to parents who make this decision this way. I hold my tongue because it's "professional" and "tactful" But it hurts inside. And it's flippin discouraging.

We DO educate. We DO use tact. And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

I'm an eternally grateful for my particular patient population in my low circ state (yay foreign born and midwifery patients) But still, it's an issue I confront at work.

Yes I'm passionate about it. I absolutely will not apologize for that.


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## Murihiku (Oct 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
When you guys have 1) had to hold pressure on a baby's penis for an hour in hopes that his circ would stop bleeding (It didn't BTW had to use topical Epinepherine)
2) seen a baby's penis turn black minutes after a circ (I was also his nurse later when we took him off life support because he had an fatal imune deficiency)
3) seen babies over and over again who won't breastfeed because they are in pain due to circ (much to the confusion of their parents)
4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

THEN, I will get that YOU personally would never talk to parents who make this decision this way. *I hold my tongue because it's "professional" and "tactful" But it hurts inside.* And it's flippin discouraging.

We DO educate. We DO use tact.[/B] And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

I'm an eternally grateful for my particular patient population in my low circ state (yay foreign born and midwifery patients) But still, it's an issue I confront at work.

*Yes I'm passionate about it. I absolutely will not apologize for that*.

See, I admire you and your approach very much. I wish those nurses had been like you.


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## laurelg (Nov 27, 2007)

I think "The Case Against Circumcision" is the wrong place to condemn nurses who spoke out strongly against circumcision. Maybe they could have been more tactful, maybe they hurt your sister's feelings, but the _core_ of what they did was right, and I wouldn't expect to find sympathy for the opposing view here.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

Ideally, in a perfect world, we are all tactful, professional people. Some people are more outspoken than others.

MAybe these nurses have had the same kinds of experiences with circ that I have. Ones that have made me literally sob in corners (also unprofesional, hey, i'm human) Maybe they were having a moment of "unprofessional" humanity. It happens sometimes.


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## ticklemegreen (Apr 20, 2009)

I can't believe some of the responses you are getting







The nurses comment was completely out of line (and unprofessional as well) As a pp maybe if the nurse would have calmly explained her, view your sister would have changed her mind. I know a lot of people trust doctors/nurses opinons more than those who are not in the medical profession. (not that they necissarily should!) I feel horrible for your sister and of course horrible for your little nephew.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Murihiku* 
I've been anti-circumcision ever since I knew what it was, but the fanaticism I've found on this forum has actually made me more tolerant of those who practice it, just as an emotional reaction.

I don't believe those nurses had purely good intentions. They probably thought they did, but I would bet their concern for babies is all tangled up with the pleasure of being self-righteous and rude.

Moreover, it seems as if their action had no good effect. The baby was circumcized anyway, right? And now someone is more miserable than she was.

So, no purely good intention, no good outcome--I judge their actions negatively.

This.

Nobody won here, except the nurses who got the last word in. The poor baby is still circumcised, the poor mom is suffering...what was accomplished? I think circumcision is wrong all around, but there's a far cry between a woman who has her son circumcised because she wants him to have a "pretty" penis like dad's, and the woman like this who was confused, depressed, and was genuinely trying to make what she saw as the best decision for her son. Yes, the end result is the same, but vilifying the mothers and praising these rude, tactless nurses just makes us look like class A jerks.

My sympathy always lies with the poor boys first, but situations like this woman's will do nothing but convince people that intactivists are crazy and mean. This was an all around crappy situation made even crappier by a few loudmouths.


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## SleeplessMommy (Jul 16, 2005)

Sure, the nurses did wrong.

The situation you describe - where the Mom does not want to circ and takes her son in anyway, due to husband pressure - is very high risk for PPD. The Mom was not supported in her desire to protect her son. With a one week old, vocalization of pain is going to be very obvious. The Mom is an an area where only 10% cric. Of course there is going to be maternal regret and PPD.

I am sorry.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
When you guys have 1) had to hold pressure on a baby's penis for an hour in hopes that his circ would stop bleeding (It didn't BTW had to use topical Epinepherine)
2) seen a baby's penis turn black minutes after a circ (I was also his nurse later when we took him off life support because he had an fatal imune deficiency)
3) seen babies over and over again who won't breastfeed because they are in pain due to circ (much to the confusion of their parents)
4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

THEN, I will get that YOU personally would never talk to parents who make this decision this way. I hold my tongue because it's "professional" and "tactful" But it hurts inside. And it's flippin discouraging.

We DO educate. We DO use tact. And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

I'm an eternally grateful for my particular patient population in my low circ state (yay foreign born and midwifery patients) But still, it's an issue I confront at work.

Yes I'm passionate about it. I absolutely will not apologize for that.










good for you, mama. the world needs hcps like you. thank you.

as for the op's situation, i too am very sad for all concerned, most especially your poor little nephew. although it was unprofessional, really, i can't fault the nurse too much for being frank. who knows what horrors she's seen related to circ. maybe she just lost it.

i do think she should've chosen her words more carefully, and she should've taken the moment to educate instead of just being angry. im sad for your sister that this was the tone of her baby's first days in the world, and i hope that she has been able to find some sort of healing. i hope her baby is ok, too.

what a crappy situation for everyone.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 
This.

Nobody won here, except the nurses who got the last word in. The poor baby is still circumcised, the poor mom is suffering...what was accomplished? I think circumcision is wrong all around, but there's a far cry between a woman who has her son circumcised because she wants him to have a "pretty" penis like dad's, and the woman like this who was confused, depressed, and was genuinely trying to make what she saw as the best decision for her son. Yes, the end result is the same, but vilifying the mothers and praising these rude, tactless nurses just makes us look like class A jerks.

My sympathy always lies with the poor boys first, but situations like this woman's will do nothing but convince people that intactivists are crazy and mean. This was an all around crappy situation made even crappier by a few loudmouths.

I have to concur with a lot of what Kayla said as well as others. On the one hand what the nurses said is what that little voice inside me says often when I hear or read about this. But that doesn't help the boy which is why that voice needs to be filtered. Perhaps if they were gentler in their approach she could have been talked out of it. Perhaps not but getting an ear full like that guarantees no success. It's true nobody won here.


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## rlmueller (May 22, 2009)

[4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

BTDT=check

We DO educate. We DO use tact. And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

Maybe you do--they did not--you are unable to speak for all nurses everywhere. There are good ones who paid attention to the patient teaching section of their careplans--and those who did not.


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## BaMo (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm glad the nurses spoke out. Maybe if we had more nurses like that in my high circ area less baby boys would not have to suffer needlessly.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm curious if this would provoke such outrage if these people weren't nurses.

These weren't THIS baby's nurses. It wasn't part of their job to do teaching with someone who wasn't indeed their patient. If they are anything like most of the nurses I know, they barely have time to get teaching done on their own patients. Providing adequate intact info takes time. Time these people probably didn't have.

Again, I'm not condoning what they said. But I think expecting them to provide education is totally unrealistic given the circumstances.

Providing intact info is a tricky thing to do without hurting someone. If this mom had been educated by these nurses, don't you think she would still feel even worse having her baby circ'ed? Education isn't the magic circ panacea. It doesn't necessarily work the way we all want it to. Truly.

This whole issue is painful.


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fellow Traveler* 
Your story has me so conflicted and I think illustrates how hard this struggle is for many of us. We must condemn the practice but at the same time it could cause incidents like the one you describe. And while you don't want to hurt someone close to you (like a sibling) you want to make sure they don't hurt someone else close to you either. It's just so messed up.

This.

I am so sorry for your nephew and I also hope that your SIL is able to work through her PPD issues. This is a very tough issue, and I can see where everyone who has responded thus far is coming from.


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## Goodmom2008 (Dec 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hillymum* 
And his poor mom!

"Poor" mom didn't protect her baby. The only victim here is the innocent baby who had his choice taken away from him simply because his father is ignorant and his mom refused to stand up to him.

In case you haven't noticed, I am very against circ. and have no sympathy for parents who do that to their child. Fortunately, my ex came around before my son was born. But one thing I can say for sure is that even if he hadn't, my son would still be intact today.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laurelg* 
I think "The Case Against Circumcision" is the wrong place to condemn nurses who spoke out strongly against circumcision. Maybe they could have been more tactful, maybe they hurt your sister's feelings, but the _core_ of what they did was right, and I wouldn't expect to find sympathy for the opposing view here.

yes, I agree with Laurel.

First, maybe that was bad circ day at their hospital. Slightly OT but related: When my DD was born, the nurse came in and instructed me in how to use the digital thermometer, including a lesson on Farenheit/Celsius. She mentioned that lots of people don't know the difference and accidentally switch back and forth between the two, and I (admittedly, rather tactlessly) made a joke about people calling and saying, "My baby must be dead" because they were accidentally taking temp with Celsius. So she froze immediately and said, pretty harshly, "We _do not_ joke about dead babies here." Now, I was a giddy mom of a newborn, and a little offended that she was grouping me with the "people who don't know that two (well, three) temp scales exist" group, so I didn't even think about it as a joke about dead babies; in my mind, I was joking about inept thermometer usage. It turns out that a baby had been stillborn the day DD was born, so emotions were raw from that. I felt pretty bad about it afterwards when I realized how my "joke" must have sounded to _her_.

Second, I wonder if this mom would feel differently about the nurse's behavior if she had changed her mind and _not_ circumcised her son. I mean, I can imagine a mom coming to this board and telling this story in a few months like, "Thank goodness for these nurses, they saved my son!







"


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Second, I wonder if this mom would feel differently about the nurse's behavior if she had changed her mind and _not_ circumcised her son. I mean, I can imagine a mom coming to this board and telling this story in a few months like, "Thank goodness for these nurses, they saved my son!







"


if people never took things personally, then we could always share info about the reality of circ. unfortunately, in this & other cases, people choose to take the info personally & hear nothing else. "how dare you question my parenting decisions?," or "can you believe she said i was 'mutilating' my son?" how many boys would be spared if this were the case? maybe the OP's nephew? maybe my poor nephews?









sus


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Second, I wonder if this mom would feel differently about the nurse's behavior if she had changed her mind and _not_ circumcised her son. I mean, I can imagine a mom coming to this board and telling this story in a few months like, "Thank goodness for these nurses, they saved my son!







"

I couldn't agree more. My son is intact, but I deeply regret partually vaccinating him. If I came across a nurse who would have told me something like "I have nothing to do with poisoning babies with vaccines" I know that it would ABSOLUTELY stop me from giving him the shots, making me going home and research it like crazy. Needless to say, I would have been forever greatful to this nurse because she would have spared me a life-time regret







.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laurelg* 
I'm sorry your sister had PPD, but I LOVE what those nurses said. LOVE it.


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## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

I don't think the nurses handled it well but under the circumstances I could see myself saying something similar. I do think it was rude and they could have been handled better but it sounds like it was a knee jerk reaction and I know I've put my foot in my mouth several times especially when I'm caught off guard about something.

I lay a lot of the blame on the father of this baby. Why on earth did he have his 1 week post partum wife take the baby in? If he truly wanted it done he should have been the one to take the baby. He must have known she was having some PPD issues and then pushing her to take the baby herself for the surgery sounds like such a coward to me.


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## rlmueller (May 22, 2009)

Reminds me of bad lactivism.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
I'm curious if this would provoke such outrage if these people weren't nurses.

These weren't THIS baby's nurses. It wasn't part of their job to do teaching with someone who wasn't indeed their patient. If they are anything like most of the nurses I know, they barely have time to get teaching done on their own patients. Providing adequate intact info takes time. Time these people probably didn't have.

Again, I'm not condoning what they said. But I think expecting them to provide education is totally unrealistic given the circumstances.

Providing intact info is a tricky thing to do without hurting someone. If this mom had been educated by these nurses, don't you think she would still feel even worse having her baby circ'ed? Education isn't the magic circ panacea. It doesn't necessarily work the way we all want it to. Truly.

*This whole issue is painful*.

So true.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laurelg* 
I think "The Case Against Circumcision" is the wrong place to condemn nurses who spoke out strongly against circumcision. Maybe they could have been more tactful, maybe they hurt your sister's feelings, but the _core_ of what they did was right, and I wouldn't expect to find sympathy for the opposing view here.

It is a great place to have this discussion and hash out both sides of it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lkg4dmcrc* 
I am generally confused. If you gave them all of the circ info before hand and then they still decided to go back a week later and do it, why do you believe that they would be swayed by nurses in a hospital to not do it just because they were polite about it? They already had the information and they chose to do it, right?

Doctors and nurses speak poorly to patients. I witness it on a daily basis.

Yes, my mother often commented about this as a nurse. She was very disturbed by the lack of respect patients are often shown. Just because it happens, doesn't mean it's right.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer* 
I have to ask why any physician would proceed with a circumcision with the mother obviously not in a proper mental state to consent to the surgery?

True!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *billikengirl* 
I don't see how it was the nurses' job to make it any easier on her to circ that baby.

The fact of the matter is it also wasn't the nurses job to make a rude comment and walk away. If she was such a strong intactivist, then I would expect her to take the time to educate. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but snarky one liners tend to get under my skin.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

Queen of the Meadow said (and other have said in not so many words)
If she was such a strong intactivist, then I would expect her to take the time to educate.

This is a point I addressed as a nurse. In most circumstances we don't have the time to educate lost strangers. IT TAKES TIME!!! And who's to say she wouldn't be offended by the education provided?

ON most days, nurses are stressed out, working hard, trying to fit in all our work for the patients we are assigned to take care of. MOst places keep staffing tight to keep within budget. They don't pay us to educate perfect strangers on their clock! NOT realistic to expect these on-the-clock nurses to take the time to educate. Not realistic!

Someone should have educated these parents. I believe the OP tried that. IME, trying to educate about circ'ing immediately before the procedure is not well received anyway.


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## Mommy2Austin (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Queen of the Meadow said (and other have said in not so many words)
If she was such a strong intactivist, then I would expect her to take the time to educate.

This is a point I addressed as a nurse. In most circumstances we don't have the time to educate lost strangers. IT TAKES TIME!!! And who's to say she wouldn't be offended by the education provided?

ON most days, nurses are stressed out, working hard, trying to fit in all our work for the patients we are assigned to take care of. MOst places keep staffing tight to keep within budget. They don't pay us to educate perfect strangers on their clock! NOT realistic to expect these on-the-clock nurses to take the time to educate. Not realistic!

Someone should have educated these parents. I believe the OP tried that. IME, trying to educate about circ'ing immediately before the procedure is not well received anyway.

I guess I see being offended by someone offering information in a polite/neutral way as being a lot different from someone being *hurt* by someones rude off hand one-liner comment.

I'm anti-circ. However my oldest was circ'd before I became informed. I can't take that back and I live with that, but if I had been 1 week PP, depressed, confused, exhausted and everything else that occurs after birthing a child and someone threw that at my face...those are the kind of things that send mamas overboard. The nurses should have handled it much more professionally.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BugMacGee* 
Queen of the Meadow said (and other have said in not so many words)
If she was such a strong intactivist, then I would expect her to take the time to educate.

This is a point I addressed as a nurse. In most circumstances we don't have the time to educate lost strangers. IT TAKES TIME!!! And who's to say she wouldn't be offended by the education provided?

ON most days, nurses are stressed out, working hard, trying to fit in all our work for the patients we are assigned to take care of. MOst places keep staffing tight to keep within budget. They don't pay us to educate perfect strangers on their clock! NOT realistic to expect these on-the-clock nurses to take the time to educate. Not realistic!

Someone should have educated these parents. I believe the OP tried that. IME, trying to educate about circ'ing immediately before the procedure is not well received anyway.

Yes, my mother was a nurse. She used to talk about working 12 hours nonstop with no time to eat. She was always exhausted after work. So I do understand that. My point being, if she didn't have time to help this mama out, she shouldn't have said anything at all.


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## Meredith&Alexander (May 23, 2005)

I'm torn. I do see that what they said was offensive, but at the same time, if she was taking her infant daughter to have her outer labia removed (for hygeine purposes, reduce UTIs and make her genitals more attractive for future sexual partners) would anyone blink at the nurses' response?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I'm an RN in Canada. That was rude and unprofessional and horrific. It shuts down the path of communication and shows no empathy whatsoever for the circumstances that brought her there or the emotions that she is currently experiencing. People are often at their most vulnerable in a hospital setting. She deserved a much more compassionate method of activism.


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