# "lack of discipline" thread now titled "OT Essays and Rants"



## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm sorry, I just had to get this off my chest.

I know some people, both online and IRL, who equate gentle discipline with no real routines or boundaries or consequences. They make a bad impression on others about what GD really is and it is starting to push me away from using that "label" myself.

I have a friend whose toddler "doesn't need naps anymore." The poor toddler is whiny, cranky, and irritable all day long... doesn't really talk, play, anything. Why does mom assume that the toddler doesn't need naps anymore? Because she won't just lay down and go to sleep. She's never had a nap routine or anything, so when she got into the stubborn toddler years, she simply wouldn't lay down without protest. So apparently a toddler is capable of making perfectly rational judgements regarding her health and well being.

I understand that there are many shades of gray... I am FAR FAR from a perfect parent, as my previous posts here can attest







. But it really goads me when parents equate their own laziness with "acceptance" and "gentle discipline". If a child is very sick and must be seen by a doctor, you don't NOT go simply because your child throws a fit and doesn't want to. You don't let your toddler stop taking naps simply because she doesn't want to, when it is OBVIOUS that they are suffering because of it. (I understand there are some toddlers who function perfectly fine without a nap... I'm not talking about them).

Being a parent means respecting your children as individuals and always having lines of communication open and in use. HOWEVER, it also means making decisions for your children that they may not agree with and like, because they don't have the developmental capacity to do these things themselves!

Sorry. Rant over now.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

OMG I totally agreee. I sometimes get those snide words or looks implying that I couldn't possible be disciplining sinced I don't spank or yell (Notsaying I haven't slipped but it is my goal not to do any) I get "Oh you'll see" instead of being commended for trying to be a kind loveing mommy who really has a well behaved 2 year old (So well behaved I worry







)
I couldn't possibly know what I am talking about since I just have one..."Oh first time mommy" comments drive me crazy!! I once had alady laugh at me for dring the cart seat in teh supermarket b/c it was out in the rain and I didn't want to put DD in a wet seat. She laughed, Oh this must be your first. I sure hope I never have so many kids that I would plop their butts into a wet cold seat. Sorry..you got me going!!


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Just be patient. People don't always know what to do instead of spanking and they get not CIO confused with never letting their child cry about anything. Sometimes they scream *because* you are meeting their needs!

It's a pretty big paradigm shift when it isn't what you grew up with and/or you have really intense kid.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Well, while I generally agree with the message of your post, I had that non-napping-but-miserable toddler. My question was, and remains, how do you force a toddler to sleep? My many efforts were unsuccessful..... so miserable, non-napping toddler it was.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

It is strange that people think that if you're not spanking/punishing/putting your kid in time-out that you've completely washed your hands of parenting! I think there is so much more going on if you are using gentle discipline--mainly because it's not a quick-fix, conditioning your kid to "behave"--it takes a lot of work to guide, to empower, to build trust, to model, to assume the best, and look beyond the symptoms.


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## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

: this bothers me a LOT. IL's especially give us (me) a hard time about it. MIL made this really offensive comment about how DD must be stupid in order to not know the word "no" (she was 15 months at the time). We don't like to use negative words and instead tell her what she should do INSTEAD and why we don't want her to continue... 'no' doesn't tell her anything, or help her learn how to make better choices or understand us.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

candiland-i totally feel you. My sister would definitely fall in your category. she would let her ds, when a toddler, just run around all night until he finally passed out, at like mindnight or 1 in the morning. He was unbearable to be around the whole time, naturally, and then just as unbearable the whole next day. My sister would say these wishy washy "oh, he'll fall asleep when he's supposed to, he's in touch with his own clock." but really it had more to do with her not wanting to establish any kind of routine whatsoever, because she is a far bigger disorganized slacker than i could be on my worst day-and that's sayinig something.

the funny thing is, she recently married someone who is her polar opposite. He's ex-military, very into schedules, so now she has her dc on one, and naturally he is alot more pleasant to be around.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

While I can see what you're saying (I think... foggy brain tonight, it's been a long day here lol). My family has never had any real schedules or "organization". Neither of my children were ever forced to nap against their will. They were encouraged, layed with and cuddled if that is what they wanted, read to, and etc... but there would never have been a battle about napping in my home if they hadn't wanted to take one. Same thing with bedtimes. The children do not have them. Not having schedules, naps, and the like doesn't mean a "lack of discipline" for everyone.

I can relate to being annoyed when someone (my in-laws often lol) thinks that gentle guidance/discipline means the children are evil out of control little demons who don't respect their parents. Ughh.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
. Not having schedules, naps, and the like doesn't mean a "lack of discipline" for everyone.


no, absolutely not. but when a particular child would really benefit from one, and the parents won't out of some belief that it "stifles their creativity" or what have you, then it does come down to that.

i don't have a schedule, per se. our life doesn't really allow for anything to be on a strict timeline. we have more of a typical order of events that happen when they happen. but if dd was clearly needing something more defined, i'd move heaven and earth to give it to her.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
I'm sorry, I just had to get this off my chest.

Sorry. Rant over now.









I tire of being told I'm not disciplining my child if I don't force said child to eat, sleep, crap on demand.

I tire of being called _"lazy"_ for not doing things the way _others_ see fit.

I tire of parents who engage in daily power struggles telling me I should.

Sorry. Rant just beginning.







:


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

devi-respectfully-if your child and family are thriving with whatever form of discipline you do (or don't do), then you are not being discussed here.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

It's not your job or mine to decide when anothers child is "thriving" or not.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

well, in my sister's case, when noone, not even his grandparent's who adore him wanted to be within 100 feet of him, it was pretty obvious. When he got kicked out of 2 preschools, one for punching a teacher in the face, it was pretty obvious. When she started putting him on a schedule, and he completely changed within like 2 days, it was pretty obvious.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
well, in my sister's case, when noone, not even his grandparent's who adore him wanted to be within 100 feet of him, it was pretty obvious. When he got kicked out of 2 preschools, one for punching a teacher in the face, it was pretty obvious. When she started putting him on a schedule, and he completely changed within like 2 days, it was pretty obvious.

Your sister is not here to defend herself.

It's my guess that her story may differ from yours? Perhaps the kid just reached a new stage of development. Perhaps the child has a different temperment than yours?

Everything has a cost/benefit. It's up to "thoughtful" parents to decide what the cost/benefit is for doing things in a manner they see fit.

The OP equated medical neglect with a mothers choice not to nap a child. That is a rather outrageous comparison.

Perhaps that child would be up till 5 am had he/she napped? WE don't know.

Again, it's not up to YOU or ME to decide these things. Hopefully AP Moms will be in touch with the needs of their child/family and make decisions that meet the needs of their children/themselves.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

actually, the story is from my sister. she honestly couldn't believe how his just getting enough sleep totally changed his personality for the better.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
actually, the story is from my sister. she honestly couldn't believe how his just getting enough sleep totally changed his personality for the better.

Good for her. She certainly doesn't sound "lazy" or "neglectful" to me in this specific situation. Sounds like she weighed things and came to a decision that HER child needed naps.

*Do you think she should be equated to a parent who doesn't seek necessary medical attention?*

I don't.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

no. absolutely not. But, and you need to know that my sister and i are close-and we both are very aware of each other's faults-had she not recently married this man who insisted that her dc was behaving so poorly due to a lack of sleep and some simple boundaries, she still would be saying things like "well, when he wants to go to bed he will." while at the exact same time her then 2 year old dc would be screaming, crying, hitting people, pulling his mom's hair, throwing things, just literally several hours of non-stop meltdowns. And my gentle and out of love "honey, he is telling you he wants to go to bed in the best way he knows how and you are ignoring that" fell on deaf, i don't want to dampen his spirits ears.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Devi--
You are describing much of my situation when dd was a toddler. Naps ended at 20 months--and, yes, she was miserable. Cranky and tantrumy and miserable. And, yes, I tried to get her to nap. Not happening.

And the occasional nap that slipped in would have her up until well past midnight.

You know what my ped said at her 24 mo exam (when I was begging for advice about our sleep issues)? "Don't let her nap. If she is only going to sleep 10 hours in every 24 hour period, make sure it is all at night."

You know, there is an old saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.....it is hard enough to have a miserable toddler that can't/won't nap. The last thing that mama needs is criticism piled on. I can tell you that from experience


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Devi--
You are describing much of my situation when dd was a toddler. Naps ended at 20 months--and, yes, she was miserable. Cranky and tantrumy and miserable. And, yes, I tried to get her to nap. Not happening.

And the occasional nap that slipped in would have her up until well past midnight.

You know what my ped said at her 24 mo exam (when I was begging for advice about our sleep issues)? *"Don't let her nap. If she is only going to sleep 10 hours in every 24 hour period, make sure it is all at night."*
You know, there is an old saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.....it is hard enough to have a miserable toddler that can't/won't nap. The last thing that mama needs is criticism piled on. I can tell you that from experience









Exactly!

Temperment is also tied very much to sleep issues. People who don't have a child with said temperment may not know, and thus point fingers saying "AAAAH HAH!"

I felt a 'restful' nights sleep was more important for my child, than taking a nap and tossing and turning all night. That's my choice, and it was a "thoughtful" one. My dd is 6.5 now, and the finger pointers can no longer blame naps on issues of temperment.

"Walk a mile in my shoes" that very phrase came to my mind as well.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Devi - sorry, I guess we don't know the same people. When something is affecting a child's health and the parents don't want to do anything about it, it is a problem. And can you please point me to the sentence in which I say "a toddler who doesn't take naps and is miserable all the time is just as bad as a severely ill child who doesn't want to see the doctor and is not forced to do so?" TIA.

I consider "discipline" guiding a child respectfully and gently... it doesn't mean "controlling" or giving time outs or spanking.







: But there are some things that kids must do for their own health and well being, even if they really don't want to. It's very unhealthy for kids to not have boundaries set. We all know this here on the GD board (I hope). This is real life, and unless you live totally outside of contact with society, then kids need to be able to function in it. Otherwise you are doing them and those around you a grave disservice.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
no. absolutely not. But, and you need to know that my sister and i are close-and we both are very aware of each other's faults-had she not recently married this man who insisted that her dc was behaving so poorly due to a lack of sleep and some simple boundaries, she still would be saying things like "well, when he wants to go to bed he will." while at the exact same time her then 2 year old dc would be screaming, crying, hitting people, pulling his mom's hair, throwing things, just literally several hours of non-stop meltdowns. And my gentle and out of love "honey, he is telling you he wants to go to bed in the best way he knows how and you are ignoring that" fell on deaf, i don't want to dampen his spirits ears.

Your sisters situation sounds different than many others who know when their child won't nap or sleep well if they do.

I'm glad you don't equate her to a lazy and neglectful mother in the process of discussing her situation. Had that not been done in this thread, I'd have skimmed right on over it.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

We also went through the refusal to take naps thing. Me or my dh would lay with dd or ds until they fell asleep, no matter how much they protested. It WAS affecting their physical and emotional health, and I don't play around with that. Just like no matter how much my toddler tantrumed because he wanted to eat a bag of sugar, I wouldn't let him do it. It could make him sick and he doesn't have the rational ability to think it through on his own...... that's what he has parents for.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, and I do know a lazy parent. Sorry, but I hung out with her on a daily basis and saw it firsthand. Her dd would repeatedly hit my daughter, push her down onto concrete walkways, take everything from her... and her mom would laugh and say "Oh, let them work it out by themselves!" She was too irresponsible to deal with the behavior so she chose to ignore it. I got sick of the abuse and stopped hanging out with her. And yes, she labeled this parenting "gentle discipline". Ummmm, nope, sorry, it's a total lack of discipline.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
Devi - sorry, I guess we don't know the same people. When something is affecting a child's health and the parents don't want to do anything about it, it is a problem. And can you please point me to the sentence in which I say "a toddler who doesn't take naps and is miserable all the time is just as bad as a severely ill child who doesn't want to see the doctor and is not forced to do so?" TIA.

I consider "discipline" guiding a child respectfully and gently... it doesn't mean "controlling" or giving time outs or spanking.







: But there are some things that kids must do for their own health and well being, even if they really don't want to. It's very unhealthy for kids to not have boundaries set. We all know this here on the GD board (I hope). This is real life, and unless you live totally outside of contact with society, then kids need to be able to function in it. Otherwise you are doing them and those around you a grave disservice.

Of course kids must do things they don't always want to, but you don't get to decide what those things are for other people. If your friends child is unhealthy and crabby, you don't have to subject yourself to said child.

*And, once again are equating this childs nap situation with neglecting health.* Do share the *evidence* that this child is unhealthy because he/she are not napping like your child is.

Had you not used inflamatory language, I'd not have replied.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
We also went through the refusal to take naps thing. Me or my dh would lay with dd or ds until they fell asleep, no matter how much they protested. It WAS affecting their physical and emotional health, and I don't play around with that. Just like no matter how much my toddler tantrumed because he wanted to eat a bag of sugar, I wouldn't let him do it. It could make him sick and he doesn't have the rational ability to think it through on his own...... that's what he has parents for.

What does eating a bag of sugar have to do with napping?


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Hmmm..... not being able to socialize, play, and engage in physical activities because they just sit there and whine and cry all day long certainly doesn't sound like it's healthy. I'm pretty sure you'd have to find evidence to DISPROVE it......


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

What does a bag of sugar have to with napping????? Are you totally serious???? I'm saying that as parents, we have to make healthy decisions for our children. We can't give in to their every whim.... THAT'S WHAT THEY HAVE PARENTS FOR. THEY CAN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS THEMSELVES. I don't think anything could be much clearer.... you're just purposefully overanalyzing everything because you are feeling incredibly defensive, for whatever reason that may be.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
We also went through the refusal to take naps thing. Me or my dh would lay with dd or ds until they fell asleep, no matter how much they protested. It WAS affecting their physical and emotional health, and I don't play around with that. Just like no matter how much my toddler tantrumed because he wanted to eat a bag of sugar, I wouldn't let him do it. It could make him sick and he doesn't have the rational ability to think it through on his own...... that's what he has parents for.

That's your choice. I too layed down with my daughter (when she stopped napping) for hours at times trying to encourage naps, and if I was lucky enough to get her to sleep, she was up all night.

Each situation is different Candiland. I think we have to recognize that.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Okay, threads like this make me feel cranky. People are going to criticize your parenting. People are going to criticize your parenting whether or not my kids take a nap. People are going to criticize your parenting whether my kids follows a routine you recognize or not.

The folks who don't understand the concept of gentle discipline aren't going to "get it" because I parent differently.

These threads start up in the GD forum every now and then. It seems like it's about reassuring ourselves that the hard work of GD is worth it.

My feeling is that my parenting relationship is none of anyone else's business, so I don't care who criticizes it. Some of the stuff I do and don't do might strike an uninvolved party as off. The hard work of GD is worth to me to forge a good relationship with a person I will know and love for the rest of my life. I don't see a reason in the world to care whether anyone else likes it, or even if it makes someone else's mother-in-law (who wasn't going to like your gentle parenting anyway) make an off-comment.

Yup, these threads make me cranky....

(btw, mama g, I think offering your sister advice and support is a different thing than being critical. I'm glad her little one is feeling better.)


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
What does a bag of sugar have to with napping????? Are you totally serious???? I'm saying that as parents, we have to make healthy decisions for our children. We can't give in to their every whim.... THAT'S WHAT THEY HAVE PARENTS FOR. THEY CAN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS THEMSELVES. I don't think anything could be much clearer.... you're just purposefully overanalyzing everything because you are feeling incredibly defensive, for whatever reason that may be.

Actually your equating letting a child eat a bag of sugar, and neglecting a childs health with a child not napping. That's a seriously irresponsible comparison and it deserves a response.

I haven't much more time to participate in this thread because I've got things to do. But, many parents who desire to control their children use all kinds of non-related metaphors.

Ever here this one about spanking:

_"What if your child ran out on to the street?!"_ It has nothing to do with the decision not to spank, but controlling parents use it to justify their actions. Your using the "bag of sugar and neglecting health" metaphors as means to judge your friends.

I'm not angry Candiland, I just wish you'd practice a little "live and let live" is all.

Peace


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
Hmmm..... not being able to socialize, play, and engage in physical activities because they just sit there and whine and cry all day long certainly doesn't sound like it's healthy. I'm pretty sure you'd have to find evidence to DISPROVE it......

Your posts speak for themself candiland.

Once again.

Peace.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

This is really bizarre. You asked how to prove a toddler not napping isn't healthy. Wouldn't you agree that a child that is unable to function because he/she is exhausted all the time isn't healthy? Or is that totally nuts or something?

I'm absolutely a live-and-let-live kind of person. But I hate the fact that I know people who run around claiming that their total lack of parenting is "gentle discipline", because it's not. That's the whole point I was trying to make. Did you read my post about my friend's toddler? Letting her hit, push, and grab every five seconds without so much as a "you shouldn't do that, it's not respectful"? That is NOT GENTLE DISCIPLINE, it's a lack of discipline. I don't understand how seeing that is somehow not being a live-and-let-live kind of person







:


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
Okay, threads like this make me feel cranky. People are going to criticize your parenting. People are going to criticize your parenting whether or not my kids take a nap. People are going to criticize your parenting whether my kids follows a routine you recognize or not.

*The folks who don't understand the concept of gentle discipline aren't going to "get it" because I parent differently.*

These threads start up in the GD forum every now and then. It seems like it's about reassuring ourselves that the hard work of GD is worth it.

*My feeling is that my parenting relationship is none of anyone else's business, so I don't care who criticizes it.* Some of the stuff I do and don't do might strike an uninvolved party as off. *The hard work of GD is worth to me to forge a good relationship with a person I will know and love for the rest of my life. I don't see a reason in the world to care whether anyone else likes it,* or even if it makes someone else's mother-in-law (who wasn't going to like your gentle parenting anyway) make an off-comment.

Yup, these threads make me cranky....

(btw, mama g, I think offering your sister advice and support is a different thing than being critical. I'm glad her little one is feeling better.)

Excellent post. Very well said.









Thank you.

*I'm off now people as I have a child who needs my attention, enjoy the discussion.*


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

My kids are napping :LOL

sorry, but that IS kind of funny.......


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
My kids are napping :LOL

sorry, but that IS kind of funny.......

I did have to come back and chuckle.

Hey, my kid just woke up not long ago. :LOL


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

FWIW, candiland - I got what you were saying in your first post and I totally agree







It drives me crazy when permissive parenting (or no parenting) = gentle discipline


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

See, you all have discovered my dirty little secret. My kids don't actually NEED naps anymore... I just force them to take naps so I can play on MDC


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

I totally agree with candiland. Sometimes being a momma is tough and requires hard decisions. But little ones are put in our care for a purpose...they need guidance.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
I totally agree with candiland. Sometimes being a momma is tough and requires hard decisions. But little ones are put in our care for a purpose...they need guidance.









I'm afraid for my own sanity, I have to unsubscribe from this thread.

Who on earth advocated not providing guidance?

Cheers.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
We also went through the refusal to take naps thing. Me or my dh would lay with dd or ds until they fell asleep, no matter how much they protested. It WAS affecting their physical and emotional health, and I don't play around with that. Just like no matter how much my toddler tantrumed because he wanted to eat a bag of sugar, I wouldn't let him do it. It could make him sick and he doesn't have the rational ability to think it through on his own...... that's what he has parents for.

Again...how do you *make* a child sleep?

I realize that you say you "went thru the refusal", and you lay down despite the protest, but you haven't parented *my* child, and you have no idea what her sleep issues are. Or how hard we tried to resolve them. You just have no idea.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

And, fwiw, I have no lingering issues about my parenting during that time. We did the best we could, and I had the very best intentions. I certainly was not lazy. But I would love to show a different perspective so that another parent could be spared the judgment and the criticism, especially when they are struggling the most.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
Oh, and I do know a lazy parent. Sorry, but I hung out with her on a daily basis and saw it firsthand. Her dd would repeatedly hit my daughter, push her down onto concrete walkways, take everything from her... and her mom would laugh and say "Oh, let them work it out by themselves!" She was too irresponsible to deal with the behavior so she chose to ignore it. I got sick of the abuse and stopped hanging out with her. And yes, she labeled this parenting "gentle discipline". Ummmm, nope, sorry, it's a total lack of discipline.

ITA and people have really jumped on the nap issue. But I too have seen parents who will let their kids do anything to others and simply allow it to happen. Like school-age kids sticking their hands in dishes at a potluck and their parents completely ignoring it. I knew some children who broke into a neighbor's house to steal ice cream and their parents pretended nothing had happened. My daughter was 5 and was with them! I have watched kids lie to their parents and the parents knew it and they just shrug... And that "Let them work it out by themselves" comment argh! For toddlers. And from some of those ultra-crunchy cool young hippie folks YK.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I know lots of lazy parents. and lots of people who are lazy and not parents. It just has nothing to do with GD. I know lazy parents that spank, lazy parents that constantly threaten time outs and lazy parents that never get off their behinds when their kid is hitting mine.

Yeah, being around lazy parents is a bad day. It just has nothing to do with GD.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Wow, people really ran away with the stupid nap comment, that wasn't even the point of the thread! I get what you are saying Candi.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Unfortunately some parents are lazy and they themselves consider it to be GD and "nice" because of it. Yes the OP point was that it isn't REALLY gd and shouldn't be "labelled" as such.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I even get it from my husband







He seems to think that the children aren't "disciplined" because they aren't spanked or punished. UGH! But he's too "lazy" to do anything about his opinion. And he knows he's not allowed to spank or punish them so he just kind of leaves it all up to me. So there!







At least he follows my lead somewhat and models my gentle discipline methods. He also helps me get more structured and organized with the children and they thrive on that loose schedule. When he works late, I have a hard time sticking to our usual routine.
I also agree with Devi. I'm tired of the desire to control being called discipline too. I guide my children. I parent my children. I don't get involved in trying to control everything. That's just a whole lot of power struggles.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

Forgive typos - nak!

I see what you are saying, though, I can't say that I've encountered much of that (lazieness being labled as gd.) There are, however, children who make their parents "look bad." I'm thinking of ADD, ADHD, High Needs, Sensitive, And Sensory children. My ds could be labled as anyone of these. I can not begin to tell you the things people - ap & gd even - have said, done, and implied about me and my ds. Well actually, you mamas have said many of the things they have said to and about me.
I'm not saying that you are talking about mamas like me, but sometimes it is hard to tell that a mama is doing her best because it may look like the she is lazy, when in reality she is picking her battles (though I am certainly not condoning letting a child harm anyone, obviously this is a battle to pick!) It can drive a mama insane trying to control a child like this, and it can be damaging to the child. My ds can be completely overwhelming, to me and others. He can be very physical, demanding, chalenging, obsessive, and rather unpleasent. He is strong willed, but very sensitive to critisism. This may seem like an advntage, but he doesn't HEAR anything I say, just that I am unhappy with him, so he gets mad at me!

I know I am a good mama, and that I am doing the best for my child, and doing EVERYTHING I can. Sometimes, though, it really makes me feel like crap when I hear good mamas talking about this stuff. It's so very hard to say what you would do when in someone else's shoes. It's very different when it's YOUR child, and YOU LOVE them, and you understand that it's not your poor parenting, but your child's personality that cuases him to act this way. I was jugdmental before I had kids, and especially when ds was little, and so well behaved. Little did I know.

I'm just saying, mamas, careful who you call lazy, because it can be SO very hard to say for sure.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

I'm still wondering HOW you make a child sleep, too! This is seriously one I would like advice on, though I suspect that I have truely tried everything!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunar forest*
I know I am a good mama

I always love to hear a mama say this! :LOVE


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

It's always good to be careful about how harshly you discuss "those people" in the third person, because there tend to be those present who mistake themselves for those people (based on your concrete examples) and feel offended. It seems like if your interpretation is correct, the parents you're talking about are guilty of neglect. They are failing to provide support to their children. But in reality, most parents are informed by a range of different beliefs and motives when it comes to providing support. Like understanding a child's motives when GDing, understanding other parents takes circumspection and communication.

Here is a good article challenging the seemingly self-evident role of "lack of rational judgment" when it comes to trusting toddlers: http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...an-nature.html


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunar forest*
I'm still wondering HOW you make a child sleep, too! This is seriously one I would like advice on, though I suspect that I have truely tried everything!

I know! Can't MAKE them eat, sleep, or use the potty. heh.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Hi Carrie








That's what I always say too. Discipline is about teaching, not punishing. Some people use punishment to teach but NOT ME!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

*OK confessions of a lazy (unenlightened, uneducated confused but also in large part lazy) parent.*

Funny how this always comes back to napping because it doesn't have to but napping issues was my lightbulb moment. Lily never slept. 15 minute stretchs from birth and she was horrid. I have almost no goodmemories from our first two years and we had actually decided not to have any more children because we couldn't deal with the behavior and health issues in both of us due to being chronically over tired nor did I want to have a nother child if there was a chance we would have this kind of struggle. BUt I belived children would sleep when they needed to sleep so I never did anything. Why did I believe that when it was obviously not true? Becuase it was the easiest thing for me to believe. it was the first things I read. I didn't have to look any further. this statement justified the type ofparenting I wanted to do. I didn't have to be tied to schedules. I didn't have to do elaborate bedtime routiens. No cry it out (of course Lily was so tired and cranky that she cried non stop, injured herselfregularly, was always sick and losing weight by 6months old dut at least she wasn't crying because she was alone in her crib which some how made it more OK) I was told to buck up and lower my expectations. This too shall pass. it wasn't passaing fast enough forme and I decided nomore children, dream over, i hate parenting but fortunately when we made the descision not to have any more children I was already pregnant but then I paniced because I couldn't do it again. I cried for days. then I picked myself up and went out and bought the no cry sleep solution, every lavender scented product ont he market, new pajamas and pillows, candles, a note book, re-read a book I had bought earlier (The 7 o'clock Bedtime - highly recomend it) and cleared my calander for a couple of months. I was not leaving my house until this child slept. And we did it. It was a ton of work. I missed out on a lot of stuff. there were a lot of tears shed by both of us before it was all said and done. but with in 3 days she was going to bed at 8 instead of 1, within a month she was napping regularly for the first time in her life, and within two months I was putting her to bed at 8, doing a shortened version of our routien, kidding her good night andleaving her to drift off peacfully and she still took two hour naps in the afternoon (which in my opinion almost all 24month olds need ). and best yert, she is sweet and pleasent and intellegent and coordinated and reletively healthy. SOmething we never had before. wehn she doesn't get enough rest during the day or has a short night things decline quickly (she is 4 1/2 by the way) she still has nightmares and sleep walking episodes when she is very very tired. usually on nights we don't respect her bedtime. BUt altgether better.

so here is what I learned. Not all children are easy. Not all kids want to sleep. I had read about bedtime routiens but until I established one, wrote it out to the minute and followed it exactly every night to the letter (hating every minute of it) and stuck to a routien both daily and nightly doing things at almost exactly the same time every day. And I hated it. I wanted my care free, schedule free whatever suits me life. And that my friends was laziness. resistance to change. not being respectful of my childrens needs. holdingon to a philosphy, ideals bwhilemy children suffered (and don't think my then 4 year old didn't suffer terribly but I didn't know what to do. t his was supposed to be the answer for every baby, hold and nurse was all you needed to do so it is all I did) She still doesn't always want to go to bed. who does. Then I would sit right by her and not let her get up until she fell asleep. yeah she pitched a fit but as someone else said she wouldbe pitching a fit if I told her no more candy or told her she had to go to the Dr. and it wouldn't phase me. why this? And sleep is a health issue!! those of you with rested children might not understand how big of one but those of us with chronically over tired children need no scientific proof that lack of sleep changs a child emotionally, behaviourally and physically. it is not pretty.

I know "GD" (actually just lazy permissive) beyond sleep who hold to the philosophy that they know what they need and don't need to do anything. They are awful! They eat junk, no/little grooming (cause they don't like it), money to spend without limits and junk food without limits. They wouldn'tmake them go to the Dr. if they didn't want to. wouldn't make them go anywhere (until all this wears a little thin and the parents snap and go into scary rages) everytime I see them they have junk in thier hands or money to buy junk. if they run out of allowance and want a pop mombuys them one. They don't brush thier teeth so they are rotting out. these kids are little. They think it will build thier self esteem. I think if they make it to adulthood they are gonna be pissed at the lack of insistance that there parents had about thier health care. about thier attitudes. about being given responsibilities they weren't ready for. And they are awful kids. they are snotty, and mean and distructive and demanding and unappreciative. My mom had to hold me down to brush my teeth and thank goodness she did because you only get one shot. and I really notice peoples smiles. My point is these famlies that In know claim they believe these great philosphies but really thier philosophies are just thierblanket of justification to parent the way they do.

and I am not saying all GD is bad, obviously not. or even allpermissiveness is lazy. some people work really hard to creat an environment in which they can be permissive. too much for me. I would just rather have boundries







but whatever floats your boat so long as your child is happy and well care for. not just not dead but healthy. I really think some of the stuff I see being passed off as "GD" is neglect. if someone wasn't feeding thier child we would report them. if someone wasn't keeping thier child clean enough or whatever would we report that? what if thier child was sick and they refused medical treatment because thier child hated Dr.s?

And about itnot being anyones business how we parent. Ya know if I was spanking or advocating cry it out or scheduled feeding formy own convience youwould be all over me. heck if I wanted to circumsize or vaccinate you would be all up in my business. It swings both ways. People just want to make sure that kids are being taken care of. it isn't a whos the greatest parent contest and just because you believe your philosophy and ideals are right doesn'tm ean no one is allowed to question you on them. If you are going let your children get sick and cranky from toomuch sugar, become violent from to much violent TV, injured regularly because they aren't getting enough sleep then youhad better be prepared to justify it IMHO. Just like if someone truely felt spanking was nessecary they had better have a good reason andbe willing to share. especially in a forum set up for sharing. we aren't here to just smile andnod at everything, we are here to hash out the finer points of gentle discipline and why feel called to it.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
I know lots of lazy parents. and lots of people who are lazy and not parents. It just has nothing to do with GD. I know lazy parents that spank, lazy parents that constantly threaten time outs and lazy parents that never get off their behinds when their kid is hitting mine.

Yeah, being around lazy parents is a bad day. It just has nothing to do with GD.









Very well said, and I totally agree







I was probably the one that got the thread off track and onto the dreaded "nap" tangent. I apologize if it dorked everything all up, but it did touch on an issue that had been flung at me before IRL as being a "lazy parent". (My not forcing my kids to nap when they were young) So I guess I just felt called to say that not everyone feels it's important is all. I really did understand the point the OP was making


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I was chatting with someone on IM while I was replying to this (makes BB much more fun - try it







)and said more consicely what I was trying to get at.

many people pick GD some people just work harder at the discipline part. If they want thier child tosay for instance nap, they restructure thier life so that they can create a routien (even if they hate it) start the bedtime routien (even if they hate it) eliminate dairy or whatever (even though it make thier life terribly complicated) and find the problem and solve it. some say (me for instance, at least until I couldn't take it anymore. ) "uh, when she gets really tired she will start sleeping. I can deal with the tantrums until then" And some people just don't know they can do somehting. they truely belive that every babys answer lies in the one book that all the cool kids are trumpeting. (me again) even when it clearly doesn't. but really that still goes back to being toolazy to change your own thoughts. I knew bedtimeroutien was the answer. but I never tried it. the GD books didn't say anything about it really and I didn't have to do it with my first why should I have to do it with this one.

but I need to get off my lazy butt and fix supper. my toddler will be waking up from her nap soon


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

lilyka wrote:
and I am not saying all GD is bad, obviously not. or even allpermissiveness is lazy. some people work really hard to creat an environment in which they can be permissive.

I guess that would be my family. My children make all their own decisions regarding food (yes, that includes candy or "junk"), they control their own money, they control when they sleep, what they wear, and their own TV/movie/music choices. I give my advice, my guidance, my honest opinion etc...but in the end the choice is made by them. It's never been an issue for us. Perhaps that is because we have always known that this is how we feel we should be parenting, and it it's just automatic. It is our environment and lifestyle, but I don't feel I had to work hard to create it.

we aren't here to just smile andnod at everything, we are here to hash out the finer points of gentle discipline and why feel called to it.

I totally agree with that, and I was actually trying to make that point in a different thread there.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

I couldn't have said it better, and I'm glad you have a personal experiencce with this to share. I'm so proud that you made that decision to tough it out and take your life back. If something isn't working for a family, then they need to change something!! If I could hug you, I would. Thanks for sharing!!


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## mammaguess (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
*OK confessions of a lazy (unenlightened, uneducated confused but also in large part lazy) parent.*
so here is what I learned. Not all children are easy. Not all kids want to sleep. I had read about bedtime routiens but until I established one, wrote it out to the minute and followed it exactly every night to the letter (hating every minute of it) and stuck to a routien both daily and nightly doing things at almost exactly the same time every day. And I hated it. I wanted my care free, schedule free whatever suits me life. And that my friends was laziness. resistance to change. not being respectful of my childrens needs. holdingon to a philosphy, ideals bwhilemy children suffered (and don't think my then 4 year old didn't suffer terribly but I didn't know what to do.

yeah she pitched a fit but as someone else said she wouldbe pitching a fit if I told her no more candy or told her she had to go to the Dr. and it wouldn't phase me. why this? And sleep is a health issue!! those of you with rested children might not understand how big of one but those of us with chronically over tired children need no scientific proof that lack of sleep changs a child emotionally, behaviourally and physically. it is not pretty.

I know "GD" (actually just lazy permissive) beyond sleep who hold to the philosophy that they know what they need and don't need to do anything. They are awful! They eat junk, no/little grooming (cause they don't like it), money to spend without limits and junk food without limits. They wouldn'tmake them go to the Dr. if they didn't want to. wouldn't make them go anywhere (until all this wears a little thin and the parents snap and go into scary rages) everytime I see them they have junk in thier hands or money to buy junk. if they run out of allowance and want a pop mombuys them one. They don't brush thier teeth so they are rotting out. these kids are little. They think it will build thier self esteem. I think if they make it to adulthood they are gonna be pissed at the lack of insistance that there parents had about thier health care. about thier attitudes. about being given responsibilities they weren't ready for. And they are awful kids. they are snotty, and mean and distructive and demanding and unappreciative. My mom had to hold me down to brush my teeth and thank goodness she did because you only get one shot. and I really notice peoples smiles. My point is these famlies that In know claim they believe these great philosphies but really thier philosophies are just thierblanket of justification to parent the way they do.

And about itnot being anyones business how we parent. Ya know if I was spanking or advocating cry it out or scheduled feeding formy own convience youwould be all over me. heck if I wanted to circumsize or vaccinate you would be all up in my business. It swings both ways. People just want to make sure that kids are being taken care of. it isn't a whos the greatest parent contest and just because you believe your philosophy and ideals are right doesn'tm ean no one is allowed to question you on them. If you are going let your children get sick and cranky from toomuch sugar, become violent from to much violent TV, injured regularly because they aren't getting enough sleep then youhad better be prepared to justify it IMHO. Just like if someone truely felt spanking was nessecary they had better have a good reason andbe willing to share. especially in a forum set up for sharing. we aren't here to just smile andnod at everything, we are here to hash out the finer points of gentle discipline and why feel called to it.


Thank you for pointing out that parenting isn't about holding to our ideals despite what our children need. It is! about doing what our children need and finding ways to make sure that they get it. Even when it isn't what we thought it would be!!!!!!

I thought you brought up a good point about the general williness to judge as long as we have decided it okay. Something to think more on.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Well, while I generally agree with the message of your post, I had that non-napping-but-miserable toddler. My question was, and remains, how do you force a toddler to sleep? My many efforts were unsuccessful..... so miserable, non-napping toddler it was.











Yup, I was totally with her except for that one part. My older dd was never a big napper. I think I have tried everything under the sun, yes, including NCSS. Thank goodness my second baby naps like a champ.

Nobody wants those cranky toddlers to nap more than their worn out mamas! I have been able to require a regular "quiet time" where we all lie in bed together with no talking allowed, but naps have always been optional.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
It's always good to be careful about how harshly you discuss "those people" in the third person, because there tend to be those present who mistake themselves for those people (based on your concrete examples) and feel offended. It seems like if your interpretation is correct, the parents you're talking about are guilty of neglect. They are failing to provide support to their children. But *in reality, most parents are informed by a range of different beliefs and motives when it comes to providing support. Like understanding a child's motives when GDing, understanding other parents takes circumspection and communication.*

Here is a good article challenging the seemingly self-evident role of "lack of rational judgment" when it comes to trusting toddlers: http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...an-nature.html

It's interesting to me that this very open and supportive post goes unnoticed, while those posts condemning other parental choices are loudly applauded? I am shocked at what I'm reading here at Mothering.com.

I must be a gluton for punishment to come back and read this stuff. *I highly doubt that there are many parents out there who use GD as an excuse to neglect their child.*

I'd like to share the opening statement in our local tribal thread:

_Are you in or near X?
Do you want to be?

Well, then you have found your tribe! *Despite our diverse backgrounds, beliefs, and interests, two things bond us together: living in the coldest state on earth...and the love for our children which warms us.* The weekly tribe thread begins anew each Saturday. Watch for the new thread on the main Minnesota/Wisconsin board.

Some of the individuals who post here meet weekly. If you are interested in attending a get together, please post your interest on the thread or send any one of us a PM. *We welcome with open arms and minds the input of all parents, regardless of race, color, national origin, religion, political view, age, sex, sexual orientation, disability, etc.*_

*I have yet to meet anyone in my tribal area who would fall into the category of "neglectful and or lazy" because he/she did not do things as I do.*

This thread is very sad









*I won't return to this thread again, but I wanted to share my last thoughts on this matter.*

Good Night.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

This is a very frustrating thread. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it is something like a very bad split end. Devi, I'm a nurse and I start IVs on people and sometimes when I go in with the needle I don't hit the vein I just run along side it. I'm making a very sharp, precise point, but I'm not in the vein, yk? I think you are making an excellent point and I agree that we should not call each other lazy or make snap judgements of others' parenting, particularly before walking a mile in their shoes. I also think eminer's post is beautifully put and quite insightful. I feel just as she said some do in regard to others' concrete examples. And here's the but: why are you trying to make this point? The OP has a very valid frustration and it is very obvious that it is a huge deal in the transition that a large number of parents are trying to make in the collective consciousness. I know that it is a huge bugaboo for me to be told spanking is a big no-no, but not to have the tools to use instead. And lilyka's post speaks loudly and clearly for itself (amazing post Sandra, I can't thank you enough for sharing that!) The road maps to get from point A to point B do not work for everyone. To some it comes naturally and they don't need a map. Some can read that map and it all falls into place, no roadblocks, no detours. For others there are lots of roadblocks and detours and you have to navigate your own course and maybe you get lost in the wilderness for awhile, not seeing the forest for the trees. Or maybe you'd be all right if you only had a good guide.

I'm sure there are "lazy" parents out there, but the ones who are trying to do gentle discipline and it is working out to be a lack of discipline, maybe they are trading in harsh for gentle and that is as far as they've gotten. Maybe they haven't figured out the discipline part, yet. There are still plenty of people that don't know that discipline does not equal punishment.

ETA: Whoops, I just read she is not coming back. Oh, well. Hang in there with the non-disciplinarians masquerading as gentle discipinarians. Someday they will get. Paradigm shifts take time!


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

Thanks, Sofia, for your post. I know the folks in my family think I am a lazy mom, and my mom said that I "don't discipline." But I think their way is lazier (hardcore strict, "put 'em in their place," beat 'em into submission style). Yeah, it is true that my sister's kids are "better behaved" than mine, but at what price? It breaks my heart to see her with her kids.

I have dealt/ am dealing with trying to do something totally different and having no experience or model for this type of parenting. I knew I would not spank my child. I didn't know I could raise him nonpunitively. I tried to give him a time out and the first time I attempted it I KNEW it wasn't right. So I did decide to not use punishments, but I was pumping out the praise, and now I see that I need to avoid the rewards as well. I am learning all the time. My little guy is incredibly spirited and highly sensitive as well, I strongly crave harmony, and do not want to fight.... so I do probably err on the permissive side sometimes. If he wants to eat junk, I let him. That said, I would NEVER allow him to hurt any living thing. It may can be considered punishment, but when he is using some toy or object to beat on a plant or our dog, I take it away. If he hit or abused another child I would absolutely intervene. (It is all about teaching *him* to be gentle, too!) If he is doing something that could cause him bodily harm, I prevent him. In public, if he is doing something that is totally socially unacceptable, I prevent that as well. I give him much more leeway than my mother would like, as he is little and I think little kids should be given more leeway socially. But I stop him from "double dipping" his chips at a party, running around the restaurant, etc.
But as far as naps, eating, etc, are concerned, I do trust him to make his own decisions. He overindulged in icecream, eating a whole half gallon in a day. I told him that he might not want to do it, that he might get a stomachache, he decided he really did want another bowl anyway. He didn't get a stomachache, but he hasn't asked for ice cream in a really long time.
I guess I am going on and on defending myself, and it is unnecessary. But this is something I deal with. I want to raise my child well and because I am coming from a background that was the antithesis of gd, I may sometimes shift to the opposite extreme. I have a really hard time being firm or enforcing anything unless he could get hurt or hurt someone else. My folks always dictated everything to me; I was never allowed any freedom at all, even over my thoughts and emotions (well, I guess I was free to have my thoughts, but they were ridiculed and I was forced to suppress my emotions), and so I guess I do want to give him the gift of freedom as much as I possibly can.
Sorry to go on and on, but yeah, here's my vote for cutting a mama some slack; better she should be a little permissive than punitive and controlling!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am surprised by the comments that posters "ran with the nap-thing"....cause I went back and checked the op, and non-napping was the only major example given of "lack of discipline". Seemed like the point of the op was to judge a mama who didn't "make" (not sure how to do that???) her child nap, and many of us have lived a different pov (and have felt the sting of that judgment), and understand it is not due to lack of discipline. But I am just repeating myself, so, whatever.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
*The road maps to get from point A to point B do work for everyone.* To some it comes naturally and they don't need a map. Some can read that map and it all falls into place, no roadblocks, no detours. For others there are lots of roadblocks and detours and you have to navigate your own course and maybe you get lost in the wilderness for awhile, not seeing the forest for the trees. Or maybe you'd be all right if you only had a good guide.

I am *very* interested in this paragraph, especially the sentence in bold. I'm not sure I agree, but I am wondering if that is because I don't really understand what you are saying, lol, or if it is because I have actually had a very different experience from what you are saying. In some areas (sleep being a big one), the "road maps" (as I am imagining them to be) would never have "worked". Dd was unable to travel that road. She needed help. Not a guide, not a map, but help that changed her basic neurological responses--so that she *could* travel the road.

And I've had similar experience with other behaviors with dd: rage being the biggest. All the great "gd" in the world could not get her an inch further down that road (nor all the punishments in the world, I am sure). And, as a prev poster said, kids like mine can make good parents "look bad", because it is so obvious to the outside observer how the problem could/should be "fixed" thru firm discipline







.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

No, no, you understand me perfectly and our experiences are very similar. My older dd has been a challenge and that's an understatement. The problem is actually a glaring typo that I did not notice until this morning! I've added the critical word *not* to that sentence and it now makes sense! Sorry!!!


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Candiland I agree with you totally.

Lilyka, I have a friend like you were with Lily until you changed. She never changed. The kid is almost seven and only in the past year or so has become a nice child, and it was all due to lack of sleep. Her parents either didn't recognize, or refused to recognize, her need for sleep, and wouldn't encourage it. So they had a horrible horrible child. The mom even admits now that the child was awful, but she won't admit it was lack of sleep. And they didn't have a second one because of how the first one was, but that was the child of course, not the parenting.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Oh, sofiamomma, that makes *so* much more sense! LOL!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
The mom even admits now that the child was awful, but she won't admit it was lack of sleep. And they didn't have a second one because of how the first one was, but that was the child of course, not the parenting.

I am assuming (from the general post) that you mean the last sentence to be sarcastic, and you believe that it was the parenting, not the child.

I readily admit that my dd has been a holy terror during some phases, and lack of sleep was a huge contributor. But, it was not, not, NOT!!! (and, yes, I am yelling







) my parenting that caused the lack of sleep. It. was. the. child. I don't know about your friend's situation; I only know my own and my own child. But I do know that many people in my own life (parents, friends, people online--but not here) believed (before her diagnosis and treatment for SID) that her sleep issues were caused by my parenting. Guess what? They were wrong.

And, anyway, why must she admit that it was the sleep issues? What does it change for her to admit that to you or anyone else? It is the past, and I'm sure if she now thinks she made mistakes, she is probably feeling guilt and does not want to broadcast it to the world.

And, lastly, the child (now at 7) is a nice, happy child. Why aren't we praising this mama for developing a nice, happy child from a miserable small child? Surely the mama did *something* right?

I am so bothered by this thread complaining about other struggling mamas (you think these mamas are enjoying their miserable kids?). Other mamas who are doing their best, but doing it "wrong".


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Here is what I think:

I think that there are probably some mama's that have posted on this thread that have been called lazy IRL (this is coming outta my a**, so bear with me) and are sensitive to this subject. That by either letting their child do what they want or need to do, or possibly unschooling, they are getting bad comments IRL. Which I know would be awful. So coming to these boards that are supposed to support them, they don't feel supported.

Any type of parenting is hard. Every decission as a parent is a hard one. I undertand. I am sure that we all understand. Attachment Parenting is HARD! We are trying to parent without our village.

I truly think that the OP is talking about parents who just don't care. They see doing nothing as something. Can any of you honestly say that if your son or daughter were hitting someone, you would say "let them work it out"? I wouldn't! I wouldn't stop my child from hitting or being hit. That is my job.

Sugar makes *my* children wild. So they don't get it often. I am not saying that families who let their children eat whatever they want, whenever they want are wrong. One of my best friends unschools. It isn't the right fit for my family, but it sure works for hers. Her son doesn't get crazy from sugar. My girls do. So I limit their sugar intake. No, that doesn't make either one of us better then the other. But both of us would take the "bag of sugar" away if they were sitting down on the floor eating scoops of sugar for ten minutes. It isn't healthy.

I had a friend who wasn't a good mother. (or friend for that matter) Everyone here is trying to defend themselves, which is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is There are people who are not good parents! And yes, it probably isn't anyone here. The thing is, she didn't do ANYTHING and passed it off as GD. It was nothing. He ran wild. And I have three girls and know what wild is. He was just trying to get her attention. She had other issues, but couldn't even be bothered with him. If you say "no", generally we follow through, but if you don't follow through, they never learn...anyway, I am off track. And if you are a family that doesn't ever say no and it works for you, could you come and live in my house?


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Yeah, I think some people think I'm a lazy parent. But I didn't think the OP was talking about me. Just because people who believe is harsh discipline might think gd is no discipline and we might take that personally due to personal experiences with feeling judged I don't think that is the point here.

A parent who believes in learning to be a better parent may be imperfect and even lazy but a parent who acts as if doing nothing is "nice" and really just ignores the need to learn as part of a self-development process is a different. And for that person to be sure they are justified because of gd and the idea of "respecting" a child but it's just a cop-out. Well, I think it does exist and that it is a shame.

I sympathize with anyone struggling on the path of parenting well because I am so very imperfect and so very lost at times. I don't sympathize with people who don't try and think they are "nice" because of it.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

So there are lousy, neglectful parents, sure. Some might even call themselves gd, but I know exceeding few people irl who've even heard of gd, so that is beyond my experience.

I am just thinking that there are far more good gd parents struggling with behavior problems than there are neglectful parents calling themselves gd. I mean, who how many people have done the reading and discussing and research to decide on a gd approach and then just neglect their child due to laziness?? That just doesn't add up to me.

And, no, I've never been accused of laziness or neglect. Just incompetence, lol. Oh, and coddling, which would be the polar opposite of laziness and neglect, but equally bad, apparently


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Sunnmama, yes I was being sarcastic. There are horrible children, but mostly they are like that because of the parenting, and this kid is definitely one of those.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I generally avoid this board because I don't feel I fit in with what most seem to think "gentle discipline" means and have had my comments drummed out. But I was intrigued by the title- I also know plenty of people who really don't use any discipline with their children and their kids are poor company, rude, loud, rough, greedy, and often overtired. There is a coop preschool here that seems to attract a lot of these folks. These are the parents that won't shush their children during a performance, and who won't scoop their kids up when it's time to go- they mill about pleading with a totally overstimulated little kid going bananas, even hitting and kicking their own parents!

I would call what I do "rhythmic discipline." This ties in with the sleep issue- a real rhythm to the day helps sleep problems tremendously, and in the Waldorf school where I taught, the kindergartens had a midmorning lie down on the rug all together, and if they went to aftercare the first thing they did at aftercare was lie down for forty minutes. And these kids who had all "given up" their naps slept. IMO naptime doesn't mean you have to sleep. You have to lie in your bed and rest for x amount of time whether you sleep or not- and if this rhythm is established usually they do sleep, because they need it. My inlaws are all telling me my new ds, who fights sleep, might be "just one of those children," but they compare that to my niece, who has all kinds of "diagnosed" disorders. To an outside view, she is chronically over-tired and under-disciplined. No, I do not walk in their shoes, and her behaviour problems may be due to other issues that no one can help. But a lot of her problems *are* due to poor parenting and lack of sleep. A learning disabled child can still be spoiled and overtired. One has nothing to do with the other. I wouldn't say anything about parents here- I haven't met you or your children and frankly I would never say anything that I wrote above to my SIL. Her child is her responsibility and she wouldn't agree with me anyway. It's just what I've observed. Their concept is she gets "stern reprimands" and pretty intense discipline, and my observation is she is colossally spoiled, and the inconsistency is what is making everything worse for her.

I think the idea of the OP wasn't to start a fight or judge others' choices- I have been labelled too permissive and too controlling and overprotective and laissez-faire -all by the same person, BTW- but I understand the irritation behind the OP's comments, seeing all too many of that type of family dynamic myself, on a regular basis.


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## alliegad (Dec 8, 2004)

I think that this is a great thread with good intentions and lots of great posts, story sharing, and information.
Not one of us wants to judge or criticize each other intentionally; I think that we all have to really truly understand that people make different choices from different reasons and pull knowledge from different sources and different parts of the world. We are all being the best mama's that we can be, our children love us for that. We do what we know/feel is best in our hearts, and for that, we could all be applausing each other.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
To an outside view, she is chronically over-tired and under-disciplined. No, I do not walk in their shoes, and her behaviour problems may be due to other issues that no one can help. But a lot of her problems *are* due to poor parenting and lack of sleep. A learning disabled child can still be spoiled and overtired. One has nothing to do with the other. .

I think that what many are missing here is the reality that sleep issues and special needs are intertwined. Yes, too little sleep will result in behavioral problems. Of course. But, special needs can often result in really, really tough sleep issues! Issues that can not be resolved just by laying with your child, or instituting a quiet time, or setting a schedule. Issues that it doesn't sound like many on this thread understand.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I think that what many are missing here is the reality that sleep issues and special needs are intertwined. Yes, too little sleep will result in behavioral problems. Of course. But, special needs can often result in really, really tough sleep issues! Issues that can not be resolved just by laying with your child, or instituting a quiet time, or setting a schedule. Issues that it doesn't sound like many on this thread understand.

YES! I just wanted to second what sunnmama said here! Now I will







: because as was just said, there are some here who do not understand.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alliegad*
I think that this is a great thread with good intentions and lots of great posts, story sharing, and information.
I just have to say that I find it *hilareous* when people say that they can't take it, are so saddened by it, are unsubscribing, and will not read any more posts, only to return again and again to intensify negativity.
...

Actually it's *"hilarious"* not "hilareous."

I find it HILARIOUS when one person attempts to insult another and can't spell their bs insult correctly. Further, I wasn't planning to return to the thread ... but a friend pointed me to your insulting post so I thought I should respond.

If you have an issue with ME in the future, send a private message, that's the purpose of having them available.

*Further, if you think that:* _"we all have to really truly understand that people make different choices from (for) different reasons and pull knowledge from different sources and different parts of the world. We are all being the best mama's that we can be, our children love us for that. We do what we know/feel is best in our hearts, and for that, we could all be *applausing* (as you call it) each other ..."_ *Then you and I agree.*

...

*Now if you all can refrain from discussing ME personally, you won't see my a*s here again. However, if I am discussed here, I MAY take the time to reply.*

_Adding, I am used to wrangling on a political discussion board, so I may come across as venomous, my sincere apologies if this is the case._


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

_*Some notes, and a mod request:*_

If I may distill, I belive the OP is feeling frustrated that what she perceives as permissive parenting might be labeled as "GD" or AP when we all here know that AP/GD parenting is an incredible amount of work. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Others are feeling judged that their parenting (or any parenting) might be lableled 'permissive' or 'lazy' or otherwise inadequate when in fact, these parents are applying their best strategies to work with their special needs/high energy/totally typical kid. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

If additional discussion is to ensue, please avoid personal attacks or this thread will be closed for violations of the user agreement. See "rules" link in the handy menu bar above.

Respectfully,
Pamela


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Well...

I wanted to come back and say a big THANK YOU to Sandra (lilyka) for her story. I come to MDC to get (or keep) a backbone when making parenting decisions, and stories like that about parents making hard choices help to keep me on the straight and narrow. I KNOW that my son is happier and better behaved when he is well slept and I KNOW that it is easier to shrug him off and say that he'll sleep when he's tired and I KNOW that it may or may not be possible to get him to take a nap. But at the end of the day, if I haven't been successful, I don't get bent out of shape at posts like this. I know I've done my best and that's OK. I honestly believe that the OP is about parents who don't make the effort (and justify it by calling it GD) and I don't understand why so many people here get so offended by posts that clearly are not an indictment of their parenting.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunar forest*
Now I will







: because as was just said, there are some here who do not understand.

That is good advice, lunar








I'm out







:


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
But, special needs can often result in really, really tough sleep issues! Issues that can not be resolved just by laying with your child, or instituting a quiet time, or setting a schedule.

I appreciate this comment, and I had not considered it fully from that point of view (as stated in my disclaimer). I *do* think most special needs children need a routine and sleep even more than those who aren't special needs, and I base that opionion on my experience with friends, family, and students, as well as my training in child development and Waldorf education. As I said, I don't intend to discuss or criticize another's position on this board, and I don't think that was the purpose of the thread. I think we all know the folks the OP was talking about, and that doesn't apply to anyone involved in this discussion. I don't think there's any need or place for hostility here. There's certainly none intended on my part. And I know from my own experience that I can slack off because it's easier, and it's not always what my children need in the short or the long run.

But one thing that crossed my mind when reading the OP is - "that's the problem with labels." You find folks here arguing about what constitutes CIO, or cosleeping, or even breastfeeding! That seems silly when we are all drawn to these boards for what we have in common. Anyway that's why I prefer not to call what I do "gentle discipline-" because for many it seems to mean what I would call "no discipline." Same thing with what folks call "taking children seriously-" I take my children very seriously and have taken a lot of flak for it, but for some that means not telling them to wear a coat or go to bed or eat their broccoli, whereas for me it means all those decisions are still mine in early childhood.

I would find further discussion of the OP and labels/discipline techniques very interesting, and would hate to have such a thread closed. Thanks to our moderator for stepping in.


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i totally understand candiland's OP/rant

although i am a little concerned about posting on this thread, as i can not spell or type worth a damn,
but i am going to bc this is soemthing i wonder about as i watch other kids and mommas at the park

one example of gd being used to cover a lack of parenting is this:
i used to work at a food co-op that had a lot of "alternative type people"
as shoppers
and one day a 5 ish year old boy was playing with the bulk coffe dispensers and opened them up and let some beans out (like 1/2 a cup) the mom looked and said nothing. trying to silently assert my authority i immediatly walked over and cleaned the mess up while he was still standing there (mother still says nothing)
then the little boy opens it again and spill ALOT of beans (like $8 worth of beans) and i say to the mom as i am cleaning it up, "i am sorry mam, but i am going to have to ask you to prevent your child from touching any more of our merchandise."
she flipped out
she acted like i new nothing about the "spirit of a child" and that he was just "curious bc he was smart" and "wanted to explore his environment"

blah blah
he smiled the whole time when his mom was not looking and looked crushed everytime she looked

she never used the term GD but i could tell by her phrases that was waht she was trying to do/not do

instead (and i am sure for many other reasons) she had a monster who was lookign for attention

and to lilyka, i could have written your post
i too was into letting dd eat and sleep totally up to her own clock etc (and for a new new born baby it was ok)
but as she got older she was desperate for a routine/schedule....and i missed her cues b/c i AM NOT a schedule person (her and dh ARE totally)
it took a while for me to figure out waht i was not doing right and why (selfish on my part)
and how to listen to her needs cues for scheduleing her days/nights

i now have a 16month old who pretty much has/does on her own when i provide her with the space to do it:
wake up at the same time each morning, eat the same breakfast, follow a simular pattern for each morning, nap at the same time (on the DOT) and then continue on in this manner til bed
she is 98% plesant now
all smiles and joy and enjoying her world

all i wonder is what happens when our next dc is born and has my personality of free spirit...i can already see the clashing of daily needs that could take place....sigh
am i off topic or what?


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*

instead (and i am sure for many other reasons) she had a monster who was lookign for attention


When I read a child described as monster, I feel uncomfortable. I request that you speak about the child's behavior and avoid negative labels.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamelamama*
_*Some notes, and a mod request:*_

If I may distill, I belive the OP is feeling frustrated that what she perceives as permissive parenting might be labeled as "GD" or AP when we all here know that AP/GD parenting is an incredible amount of work. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Others are feeling judged that their parenting (or any parenting) might be lableled 'permissive' or 'lazy' or otherwise inadequate when in fact, these parents are applying their best strategies to work with their special needs/high energy/totally typical kid. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Just wanted to add that I really appreciated these comments, Pamela.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

sunnmama, Devi..... YES, you are being talked about, so please come back!... I really try hard to not judge people's situations here. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure that if I tried as hard as sunnmama tried to get my kids to nap and it absolutely wasn't working, as seems to be the case, I'd let it go, too. It's obvious that the majority of parents DO TRY VERY HARD to be the best parents they can be. It's the hardest job in the world (OMG, my dd was born screaming and never stopped! Never quick to smile, laugh, and is still incredibly intense at 5 and freaks out over EVERYTHING like people are stabbing her with knives... and YES, I know without a doubt people are judging me and thinking that I'm raising a spoiled little brat... it seems like "spirited child" is a weak description, to say the least







)....

BUT, just as we could agree that spanking isn't necessarily the best parenting choice, neither is allowing a child to do anything they want because mom or dad just don't want to deal with it. I don't get the feeling that ANY parent here is like that... why else would we all be here day in and day out trying to become better people, better citizens, better mommies, daddies, partners, etc. etc??

I shouldn't have used words such as "lazy" or "neglectful" (I don't think I used "neglectful", but I'm not gonna search thru 5 pages right now







). I work very hard to NOT judge anyone and this past week has been a major regression for me.

I guess this hits a sore note with me because, like lilyka, I started out confusing gentle discipline with "let them do whatever they want." Luckily (ha, ironically), I met this other person who "parented" the same way, but her dd was physically abusive every five minutes when we'd get together, and she did nothing about it.

THIS MADE ME THINK. Hmmm, her child has no boundaries and is physically hurting people. My child has no real boundaries and is a screaming, yelling, whining banshee! So really, this relationship with said woman was actually a mirror, and in this mirror was reflected everything I needed to change about myself.

I think some people fear discipline. We don't live in a world of unconditional love. Three strikes and you're out. I, like every other mother here, just want my kids to grow up healthy and happy and still love their mama as much as I love them. But I'm coming to realize that they're not gonna hate me because I'm firm with them. I was raised very permissively by my grandparents, and I'm still dealing with the fallout at 26 years old. I expect to get what I want when I want it, and the real world doesn't work that way. I expect this plays a large part in my bipolar and depressive tendencies. My reality simply isn't the reality we live in.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to come and patch things up with all of you.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Don't know why I'm bothering, because this thread is making ME cranky too...but...

I know plenty of lazy parents who let their children behave inappropriately but NONE of them call it gentle discipline, not out loud, anyway. Maybe they tell themselves they are letting the kids be kids and choosing their battles, who knows.

I do feel quite strongly that it is necessary to teach children what is appropriate in the larger world outside their home, and what I see happening a lot is parents whose rules INSIDE the home set their kids up for trouble when they venture OUTSIDE. So the kid who can stick his dirty hands inside the bowl of food at his own house is not going to get the same relaxed reception when he comes to my July 4th barbecue and does the same thing. The kid who is allowed to jump off the couch at her home really needs to know that she can't do this at Grandma's or a friend's house.

So I think that often, when parents decide that something is okay with THEM - and they have every right to decide what is right in their own home as long as it is not hurting anyone - they need to consider the fact that it is not easy for young children to chnage their behavior when the rules outside are so different. So they should ask themselves, if they let their kid do this particular thing, how hard will it be to teach their child that it is only okay in certain specific environments and not others? I know my own daughter does much better with set limits. I probably don't really care if she jumps off the couch in my house, but I choose not to allow it because I don't want her thinking she can do this everywhere she goes. Make sense? I don't think disallowing jumping off the couch is stifling her creativity in any way! I think it is truly doing a child a disservice if you allow a whole lot of behavior that is going to get them "into trouble" outside their homes. It's really not fair to them - imagine how confused they must be when they get negative reactions all the time to things they thought were fine.

Of course, there are the parents who allow all sorts of things in their own homes and it NEVER OCCURS TO THEM that other people don't find this acceptable. That drives me CRAZY and I just don't get how someone can bring their kid to my house and think I'm going to find it adorable when he starts pulling books off my shelf and throwing them around. That's just inconsiderate.

Okay, I bothered...:LOL


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

moma justice, don't worry about spelling, it is ideas, thoughts and experiences most of us are interested in, so post away! If I were working in a store and someone's child spilled $10 worth of coffee beans, I'd be asking them to not only control the child, but to pay for the spilled beans! I think that example is a prime example of what candiland is talking about. You make a safe environment for a baby/toddler to explore, not allow a *five* year old to trash the merchandise at a store in the name of exploration! Sheesh!!

Lunamom, I think kids can tolerate a certain amount of difference in expectations from place to place, but I do agree that it is important to teach them that the outside world may expect something different than you do. I have a friend who does not allow her children to stand on chairs and she readily admits she has no rational reason for that, but that is the rule. My dd used to look a little confused when she wasn't allowed to do that there, but she quickly adapted. Same with going back and forth between mine and my mom's house.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
Of course, there are the parents who allow all sorts of things in their own homes and it NEVER OCCURS TO THEM that other people don't find this acceptable. That drives me CRAZY and I just don't get how someone can bring their kid to my house and think I'm going to find it adorable when he starts pulling books off my shelf and throwing them around. That's just inconsiderate.

Now *this* I can relate to








I think it is true that people have different comfort levels with noise, mess, activity, etc.....and I have a friend whose comfort level is significantly higher than mine. So, when I am around her child, sometimes I have to set my own limits, lol. And I think that is ok to tell the child directly "The books must stay on the shelf". It is just information, really.

As an extreme (but interesting) example, dd and I were stranded for 11 hours in an airport earlier this month, and we spent lots and lots of time in the play area. There was one child there who screamed *everything*. She had no "indoor voice" at all, lol. I mean, she would stand right next to my head and scream at me--in a happy voice. Turns out, when she spoke to her mother, she signed







. Her mother is deaf, and as such, has a *very* high tolerance for screaming, lol. So this child had not yet learned the concept of an "indoor voice". Ok, that is an extreme example, but if mess does not bother mom--then she won't spend a lot of time changing the behavior, kwim?

Candiland--








And, as I said in my first post, I *do* agree with the idea of this thread. Defending children who dump coffee in the grocery store is ridiculous imo, as would be insisting that your child should be able to dump books in another person's home. Some other things I just see as very, very grey and complex issues (sleep, tantrums)--and IME (personally and from observing friends and their children) the work being done to address the issue is not always obvious--and sometimes not even accepted if it has been explained.


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## alliegad (Dec 8, 2004)

Just wanted to let you all know that I am sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence by previously posting with spelling errors. I was not under the impression that we all had to be excellent (or perfect, or actually, even near perfect) with grammar or spelling, so seriously- if my post bothered anyone due to what I spelled wrong, I apologize. I guess when I post, I just try to get ideas and thoughts through without worrying much about those who want to nitpick postings apart for such grammatical errors. I will know better from now on.







If it bothered anyone for ~other~ reasons, I apologize for that as well.
I was trying to post a light-hearted thread meant to be uplifting, but I guess I failed at that.
Sorry.







You guys for the most part are so supportive of each other, and I really admire that. I agree with much of what I am reading.

Sunmamma and Lunamama, I agree with you guys on the whole thought that different people have different comfort levels on how to raise/direct/redirect their children. I do often redirect my son, when we are at other houses or out, because I know that other people would not respect the way that I usually just let him explore and do as he wishes. Given, he explores and does as he wishes in the comforts (and within the boundaries) of our own home, so it is safer and more... comfortable there!


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
*sunnmama, Devi..... YES, you are being talked about, so please come back!...* I really try hard to not judge people's situations here. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure that if I tried as hard as sunnmama tried to get my kids to nap and it absolutely wasn't working, as seems to be the case, I'd let it go, too. It's obvious that the majority of parents DO TRY VERY HARD to be the best parents they can be. It's the hardest job in the world (OMG, my dd was born screaming and never stopped! Never quick to smile, laugh, and is still incredibly intense at 5 and freaks out over EVERYTHING like people are stabbing her with knives... and YES, I know without a doubt people are judging me and thinking that I'm raising a spoiled little brat... it seems like "spirited child" is a weak description, to say the least







)....

BUT, just as we could agree that spanking isn't necessarily the best parenting choice, neither is allowing a child to do anything they want because mom or dad just don't want to deal with it. I don't get the feeling that ANY parent here is like that... why else would we all be here day in and day out trying to become better people, better citizens, better mommies, daddies, partners, etc. etc??

I shouldn't have used words such as "lazy" or "neglectful" (I don't think I used "neglectful", but I'm not gonna search thru 5 pages right now







). I work very hard to NOT judge anyone and this past week has been a major regression for me.

I guess this hits a sore note with me because, like lilyka, I started out confusing gentle discipline with "let them do whatever they want." Luckily (ha, ironically), I met this other person who "parented" the same way, but her dd was physically abusive every five minutes when we'd get together, and she did nothing about it.

THIS MADE ME THINK. Hmmm, her child has no boundaries and is physically hurting people. My child has no real boundaries and is a screaming, yelling, whining banshee! So really, this relationship with said woman was actually a mirror, and in this mirror was reflected everything I needed to change about myself.

I think some people fear discipline. We don't live in a world of unconditional love. Three strikes and you're out. I, like every other mother here, just want my kids to grow up healthy and happy and still love their mama as much as I love them. But I'm coming to realize that they're not gonna hate me because I'm firm with them. I was raised very permissively by my grandparents, and I'm still dealing with the fallout at 26 years old. I expect to get what I want when I want it, and the real world doesn't work that way. I expect this plays a large part in my bipolar and depressive tendencies. My reality simply isn't the reality we live in.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to come and patch things up with all of you.










*Very interesting post. I returned as per your invitation Candiland. In the end, I feel that this thread has opened a necessary discussion and I thank you for starting the conversation.*









*My apologies for being defensive. And, for the record - I'm not the best at spelling either.*







: I also invite anyone to skip over this long post because I am certain much of what I say is totally unnecessary.

First I'd like to offer food for thought on your situation growing up. I am pretty certain that your bipolar issues are NOT be caused by your GP's parenting style, but I do know that Bi-Polar kids are VERY explosive and it's best not to set them off if you can help it. The word no can send them into a frenzy. Perhaps your Grand Parents were doing what was best for you? I read a book called The Explosive Child and it basically encourages parents lighten up on some of these kids. *Again, just food for thought? I don't know your situation specifically but wanted to offer some input.*

Before I talk about myself I'd like to begin by describing my situation. I was led to AP through my daughter. I was doing AP things before I even knew what AP was.

I remember calling LLL and asking for help saying _"I don't know what to do, my child is one and I have to wean her now."_ The person at the other end reassured me that I should burn the book where I got this bad advice LOL, and that I did *not* have to wean my daughter because she was one. She then recommended Dr. Sears. I didn't rush out and buy his book, but picked it up several months later at a half priced book store. My daughter was almost 2 when I finally purchased the "Baby Book." I cried when I opened it and saw our side car sleeping arrangement on page xx. I could not believe that what I'd been doing was "right" in the eyes of some as we took such scorn. I finally felt liberated and allowed to follow my instinct. I was vindicated!

For the record, my daughter is very spirited and had colic, needed nursing very much, needed to co-sleep and still does, weaned naturally at almost 5 years old. She's six now, still spirited, still has needs that differ from many other children. *Because my dd is so spirited, sensitive my parenting style is often "blamed" for her temperament. I am considered permissive because my dd nursed until she was 5, is still co-sleeping and I don't spank. While no one here would question these things, the point is some do.*

From the time I discovered Sears, I have felt that it's OK to follow my instincts and go against the grain. _Perhaps I'm wrong,_ but I continually examine my beliefs and feel that overall I'm doing the right thing. And, I vow to constantly educate myself on parenting and make adjustments as needed. Unfortunately my instincts don't cover all that I need to know.

A bit of perspective regarding my rant: When I hear certain words to describe parents it sets me off, as I'm sure you can tell.







Those words happen to have been used here.

Here is a quick Q and A with James Dobson (whom I despise personally)

http://www.troubledwith.com/stellent...0and%20Answers

If you look that over you will find a similar argument to the one presented here. *Not that Moms here are coming from the same place as Mr. Dobson, but I find the entire conversation reminiscent of conversations and struggles I've had with the Dobson fans in my life.*

Frankly, *I felt many of the examples given here may be beyond the parents "healthy control."* I do think that parents should communicate reasonable expectations to their child, teaching them to respect people and property. But we may all have different methods of teaching these things? Also as Sunmama said, we all have different levels of tolerance. So, I generally _try_ to give parents the benefit of the doubt. _Though, I admit I'm not always successful on that front._ I also agree with Sunmama that in ones home it's ok to set limits if the parents are not doing so. I would also feel comfortable (saying please don't hit) if a child hit mine, and the parent didn't act.

Additionally we all bring our own baggage into our parenting, like it or not. The only thing one can do is try to be aware and make adjustments. At the risk of being too personal, some of my baggage includes: My sister and I being battered, we were very well behaved as a result. Somtimes I feel there is a trade off. My nephews get the "wooden spoon" or "belt" - and they too are very well behaved. Some of my other nephews, nieces also get spanked ... again little angels.

I chose to focus on the long term when it comes to parenting my daughter. I do not need to have a "well behaved" child at all times. It's not my ultimate goal. My goal is to have a _well adjusted_ adult. *Not that one has to choose between the two,* but at times I think people choose well behaved over all else. I will say we have paid a price for this philosophy in that I have to be around people who are very understanding. And, that limits our ability to do things because on the one hand, I get embarrassed at times, but on the other I feel I'm right and the rest of the country is largely wrong. :LOL

Overall, I have a pretty simple parenting philosophy. I don't believe in unnecessarily intruding on my child's person *without good reason, and I try not to sweat the small stuff. For example, I would never hold my dd down to brush her teeth, or force her to comb her hair or eat anything in particular. I do sing songs when I comb her hair, as she allows me to do it then. I also encourage eating (healthy foods) when were heading somewhere where we won't be able eat for a while. But, I feel very strongly that it's a slippery slope when parents control too much of their child's body. If I am controlling every aspect of their person, I feel they are more pliable to a person whose intentions might not be as good, KWIM?

Also, I am a mom who allows her daughter to jump on the couch,







but I've always explained that this is ok at home and not elsewhere. She has not had an issue with that and has NEVER done so in another persons home. But, I trust that attached parents know if their child will have a hard time adjusting.

*I also think at times we expect too much from our kids?* I think that expecting a child not to be attracted to putting their hands in coffee beans when the beans are at their eye level is unrealistic. In fact, my child has been attracted to said beans at our local coffee house. When this happened last year, I redirected her, and told her that the beans were for looking at instead of touching and showed her what the beans looked like roasted etc ... But if I was with a group of friends, I might not realize she is playing in the beans right away, KWIM? I remember leaving the coffee shop questioning the wisdom of putting the darn beans out in such a manner in the first place. Heck, I wanted to play in them myself!









Anyhow, in a nutshell, my child's feelings are always valid, and always considered. That doesn't mean she always gets the last say, nor does it mean that I don't constantly question my parenting.

I hope that I was able to convey some of my thoughts/perspective.

*Thanks for listening, and again my apologies for stating my opinion in a rude manner previously ... AND I'M SORRY FOR THE LONG WINDED POST ... YIKES!*


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alliegad*
Just wanted to let you all know that I am sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence by previously posting with spelling errors. I was not under the impression that we all had to be excellent (or perfect, or actually, even near perfect) with grammar or spelling, so seriously- if my post bothered anyone due to what I spelled wrong, I apologize. I guess when I post, I just try to get ideas and thoughts through without worrying much about those who want to nitpick postings apart for such grammatical errors. I will know better from now on.







If it bothered anyone for ~other~ reasons, I apologize for that as well.

Your spelling really didn't bother me. But I will admit the content of your post did. My apologies for addressing your spelling vs. the context of your post about me.

Your apology is accepted. Peace


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*

I do feel quite strongly that it is necessary to teach children what is appropriate in the larger world outside their home, and what I see happening a lot is parents whose rules INSIDE the home set their kids up for trouble when they venture OUTSIDE. So the kid who can stick his dirty hands inside the bowl of food at his own house is not going to get the same relaxed reception when he comes to my July 4th barbecue and does the same thing. The kid who is allowed to jump off the couch at her home really needs to know that she can't do this at Grandma's or a friend's house.

So I think that often, when parents decide that something is okay with THEM - and they have every right to decide what is right in their own home as long as it is not hurting anyone - they need to consider the fact that it is not easy for young children to chnage their behavior when the rules outside are so different. So they should ask themselves, if they let their kid do this particular thing, how hard will it be to teach their child that it is only okay in certain specific environments and not others? I know my own daughter does much better with set limits. I probably don't really care if she jumps off the couch in my house, but I choose not to allow it because I don't want her thinking she can do this everywhere she goes. Make sense? I don't think disallowing jumping off the couch is stifling her creativity in any way! I think it is truly doing a child a disservice if you allow a whole lot of behavior that is going to get them "into trouble" outside their homes. It's really not fair to them - imagine how confused they must be when they get negative reactions all the time to things they thought were fine.

This is a tiny bit off topic from the OP, but I do think children have the capacity to know what behavior is appropriate in certain situations and what isn't. That's why I teach my kids that we whisper in the library at all times. We don't whisper at home at all times. But in the library, we use our "library voice". I think children are very perceptive. When my parents come to visit, they use their potties in the bathroom. I've never told them that they have to, but my parents make comments that make my kids feel bad if they bring their potties out and take a dump in front of the TV







Like, "EWWWWW that stinks." or "Gross!" I feel bad too and have asked them not to make those comments. But the children solved it by just not doing it when they are around. Children also learn if their mom and dad have differing styles of discipline and learn how to respond appropriately as well.
BTW, I let my kids jump on the couch. In my home, only.


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## alliegad (Dec 8, 2004)

Devi, thanks for both of those posts. It definetly does sound like you had AP down pat before you really knew it was AP. What a joy it must have been to find out when your daughter was near 2 that there were so many others out there who respected the way you parented and did the same, and even so heavily encouraged it. Thank goodness for that woman you talked to at LLL who told you to burn that silly "must wean your child at 1 yo" book.
Your example about jumping on couches at home being fine but in other houses not always fine is a very simple, clear illustration of how attachment parenting provides freedom to learn and do and experience without stifiling, while still respecting the boundaries of other mamma's rules and homes.

Kavamamakava, I agree that children are very perceptive. I think that for the most part, they can tell the difference in your body language, tone, mamma's comfort level, when they partake in something like jumping on someone's couch in different environments or moving the potty chair to the living room. They don't want people to make negative comments dierected towards them or because of them- they pick up on that stuff more than we maybe give them credit for sometimes.








Anyways, well said.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alliegad*
Devi, thanks for both of those posts. It definetly does sound like you had AP down pat before you really knew it was AP. What a joy it must have been to find out when your daughter was near 2 that there were so many others out there who respected the way you parented and did the same, and even so heavily encouraged it. Thank goodness for that woman you talked to at LLL who told you to burn that silly "must wean your child at 1 yo" book.

Indeed it was a huge comfort! Still is ...

Thanks for your post as well.


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

The tone of this thread was a bit alarming earlier. It has covered some important ground and had valuable thoughts.

Thank you for bringing it around to a place of peaceful understanding!


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I still have to go back and read the responses but ITA with the OP. I've tried to explain GD to my mom countless times and she always makes a comment like, "yeah, you'll end up with kids like on Nanny 911." I *try* to explain to her that no hitting/no yelling does NOT equal "no boundaries/limits/discipline" but she refuses to "get it."







It's frustrating that because I'm choosing a different parenting path she gets defensive about her own choices and shuts down.

Now - off to read the 4 pages here


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
i totally understand candiland's OP/rant

one example of gd being used to cover a lack of parenting is this:
i used to work at a food co-op that had a lot of "alternative type people"
as shoppers and one day a 5 ish year old boy was playing with the bulk coffe dispensers and opened them up and let some beans out (like 1/2 a cup) the mom looked and said nothing. trying to silently assert my authority i immediatly walked over and cleaned the mess up while he was still standing there (mother still says nothing) then the little boy opens it again and spill ALOT of beans (like $8 worth of beans) and i say to the mom as i am cleaning it up, "i am sorry mam, but i am going to have to ask you to prevent your child from touching any more of our merchandise." she flipped out
she acted like i new nothing about the "spirit of a child" and that he was just "curious bc he was smart" and "wanted to explore his environment" blah blah

For some reason I feel compelled to explain my eariler post as I initially misunderstood what you posted moma justice.

My daughter was attracted to unroasted coffee beans in huge sacks that were placed wide open, and at kid level in a coffee shop we visted. These sacks were on display in the entry way, and must have weighed close to 100 pounds each. As I said, they were wide open and actually looked like a sensory play area for cripes sakes. My child did not open a closed container and spill beans all over. In fact she just played in the beans with her hands, briefly until I mentioned not to. I do remember the clerk saying lots of kids were drawn to playing in the beans, well duh!

*Anyway, just wanted to clarify that I am not endorsing kids deliberately spilling coffee beans all over the place.*

Additionally, my honest guess is that the women in this story might have a different "story" about what occurred though? - just sayin'.









K, bye


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueStateMama*
I *try* to explain to her that no hitting/no yelling does NOT equal "no boundaries/limits/discipline"

Don't most of us have the no hitting/no yelling rule not just for ourselves, but for our kids as well? Might help explain it a bit.

I have followed this thread for a few days now... At first, I felt alarmed, defensive, thinking that my parenting might be labeled as "lazy" at times. My son sometimes takes a nap, sometimes doesn't lately. This started well after his second birthday. My father has tried to tell me that DS needs a nap (over the phone, not after having spent any time with him - my father lives 3 1/2 hours away) simply because all kids his age do, so the OP sounded a bit like that to me. My mother has told me countless times (also living 3 1/2 hours away, without the contact with my DS) that I need to have better routines for DS, which also was part of the original example/complaint of the OP. Of course, we do have routines, but we they aren't strict because we don't feel we need them. DS sleeps longer and better at night if he skips a nap and is easier to put to bed (with somewhat of a routine). So for my family, in my situation, we don't always require what other people/families require.

I can totally understand children benefitting from strict routine. I can understand parents needing that routine when other aspects of their life demand it. But my approach to gentle discipline attempts to model what evolutionary biologists believe is an "appropriate" way to parent, much in the way of the books of Meredith Small and The Continuum Concept. I'm not always certain what that is exactly, but our family attempts to ask "what is best?" in our approach and to imagine what we would be doing if instead of a nuclear situation, we were in a tribal situation. We try to allow for that as much as we can. This is also why we choose to unschool.

I'm babbling endlessly now, but I suppose my point is that I originally felt defensive about this thread, but have attempted to consider my child and my parenting from a pseudo-objective viewpoint to imagine if what I encounter and how very much of a struggle it is, is normal and developmentally appropriate for my child. I think we're doing okay, but it is a struggle. I do not have the empathetic, quiet, montessori child that testimonials in Dr. Sears' books extol as the result of the AP model. I don't believe now that that is the end result, but rather a matter, in large part, of individual temperment. My child is wildfire, and yet he is loving and adorable. I don't know if eliminating dairy from his diet or being more strict with a routine would change the wildfire quality about him. In large part, I think he's just 2 1/2. After reading this thread, I am willing to, and have been discussing the notion of trying an elimination diet. I know that as he grows, his needs for routine will evolve, but into what, I know not.

Anyway, thanks for this thread, as it has challenged me profoundly, and I believe now that it has reached more of a place of understanding of the circumstances of individuals and their families and needs.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

uugghhh, why do they do that. My kids love toplay in the bags of raw beans. yeah it is cool to see them sitting there but put them away already. obviously, unless you go to the same coffee shop as me this is a universal problem. Anyway,my little rant about coffee beans which has nothing to do with the original post . . . (did I mention they keep those bags of beans right next to where they keep all the coloringbooks, puzzles and toys. . . )


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
Don't most of us have the no hitting/no yelling rule not just for ourselves, but for our kids as well? Might help explain it a bit.

I have followed this thread for a few days now... At first, I felt alarmed, defensive, thinking that my parenting might be labeled as "lazy" at times. My son sometimes takes a nap, sometimes doesn't lately. This started well after his second birthday. My father has tried to tell me that DS needs a nap (over the phone, not after having spent any time with him - my father lives 3 1/2 hours away) simply because all kids his age do, so the OP sounded a bit like that to me. My mother has told me countless times (also living 3 1/2 hours away, without the contact with my DS) that I need to have better routines for DS, which also was part of the original example/complaint of the OP. Of course, we do have routines, but we they aren't strict because we don't feel we need them. DS sleeps longer and better at night if he skips a nap and is easier to put to bed (with somewhat of a routine). So for my family, in my situation, we don't always require what other people/families require.

I can totally understand children benefitting from strict routine. I can understand parents needing that routine when other aspects of their life demand it. But my approach to gentle discipline attempts to model what evolutionary biologists believe is an "appropriate" way to parent, much in the way of the books of Meredith Small and The Continuum Concept. I'm not always certain what that is exactly, but our family attempts to ask "what is best?" in our approach and to imagine what we would be doing if instead of a nuclear situation, we were in a tribal situation. We try to allow for that as much as we can. This is also why we choose to unschool.

I'm babbling endlessly now, but I suppose my point is that I originally felt defensive about this thread, but have attempted to consider my child and my parenting from a pseudo-objective viewpoint to imagine if what I encounter and how very much of a struggle it is, is normal and developmentally appropriate for my child. I think we're doing okay, but it is a struggle. I do not have the empathetic, quiet, montessori child that testimonials in Dr. Sears' books extol as the result of the AP model. I don't believe now that that is the end result, but rather a matter, in large part, of individual temperment. My child is wildfire, and yet he is loving and adorable. I don't know if eliminating dairy from his diet or being more strict with a routine would change the wildfire quality about him. In large part, I think he's just 2 1/2. After reading this thread, I am willing to, and have been discussing the notion of trying an elimination diet. I know that as he grows, his needs for routine will evolve, but into what, I know not.

Anyway, thanks for this thread, as it has challenged me profoundly, and I believe now that it has reached more of a place of understanding of the circumstances of individuals and their families and needs.

What an absolutely excellent post.

I wanted to touch on one thing you noted:

*I do not have the empathetic, quiet, montessori child that testimonials in Dr. Sears' books extol as the result of the AP model. I don't believe now that that is the end result, but rather a matter, in large part, of individual temperment. My child is wildfire, and yet he is loving and adorable.*

I felt let down by Sears and his description of kids who are basically tantrum free stepford kids if we nurse and co-sleep ect. WRONNNNG. He does have a book or two about "high need kids" which is helpful, but it took him having several kids before he had the ONE with a temperament that opened his eyes.

I felt like a failure because I was doing everything "right" and not getting the promised Sears end result, this was damaging in many ways. But, thankfully I found wisdom here and via exploration of other avenues. I think Sears has much to offer (obviously) but he also promises things that are not fully based in reality IMHO.









Thanks again for the great post. I fully agree that this thread has been productive in the end, so again thanks to Candiland for opening discussion.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*

I can totally understand children benefitting from strict routine. I can understand parents needing that routine when other aspects of their life demand it. But my approach to gentle discipline attempts to model what evolutionary biologists believe is an "appropriate" way to parent, much in the way of the books of Meredith Small and The Continuum Concept. I'm not always certain what that is exactly, but our family attempts to ask "what is best?" in our approach and to imagine what we would be doing if instead of a nuclear situation, we were in a tribal situation. We try to allow for that as much as we can. This is also why we choose to unschool.

Oh, well put Anna!! That is exactly how I feel! I think we have the same son, here! (It will be interesesting to see how they interact with each other!)









About Dr. Sears' books: I, too, was disappointed, with exception of his ADD book. (I HATE lables, but I there are certain ones that we have, and run in our family, so it can be good to aknowlage, to a certain extent.) He just keeps describing my kids, over and over. I would recommend it, it's pretty darn good.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Since you brought up continuim concept I would challenege that those children were on pretty strict schedules. I wouldbet thier days were pretty routien and that they rose at roughly the same time every day (or at least with very gradual rythmical change) with the sun or before and went to sleep every night with the sun. tey got up and gathered breakfast, cooked it ate it, etc. . . . rarely were thier ives interupted. There weren't all these societal interuptions, play groups, piano lesons, Dr. appointments and other things that would dink around with thier schedule. thier moms aren't whipping in and out of carseats while they are trying to nap. even if done in a sling they would have a better chance of doing it at the same time every day than kids in todays western society. My first slept and ate anywhere. but she was still very scheduled even though self scheduled. I am talking you could set your watch to her. shecould be running around like a lunatic and when the clock strikes one drop like a dead person. There were several times I saw her start down and just about broke aleg trying to get to her before she bonked her head. So even though i was subjecting her to crazyness she could cope. But then I guess our lives were a lot less crazy then. Number two would have benifited from a couple of things but I didn't want to believe she needed a schedule. it didn't fit my lifestyle to believe it. and she probably would have fallen into a routien if I had stopped, if I had shown some consistancey to her life but we were here one day and there the next and getting up one time one day and another the next and napping here and there when she could catch a wink. with number three we started off with a schedule (more or less) and I don't know if it was conditining, if it was just that routien allowed her to get what she needed or if she would have slept/ate anywhere (she was a tummy sleeper who hated her carseat so I doubt it) well she would eat anywhere. Ava's not one to turn down a bite :LOL but she didn't sit around always latched on either. But sleeping was a whole nother story.

but my point is you can't really compare our children to simpler societies unless you have made a point to stick close to home base, respect your childs schedule, and leave them alone enough to find it. or inother words really really simplify. It is easy to look at some of the exapmples in the cc and say "all children benifit from having things left up to them" but realy what I see when I look at that book, the conclusion I draw is children benifit from natrual healthy diets. children benifit from simple, clutter free, appointment free lifestyles where thier schedules are rarely interupted. Children benifit from a life free of buzzing, flashing whirring, digitized, artificially lit, amplified, speed of light lifestyles so many of us have. They benifit from the routien and consistancy of uninterrupted, predictable, simple life.

just a thought. a different take on the conclusions we can draw from book slike that. Why do we assume thier lives were chaotic and full of diversity from day to day and the kids were just along for the exciting ride. frmo what I read in the CC (and I didn't read the other one so I can not comment) I don't see that as the case (although as I remember that wasn't the case) again though people tend to look for conclusions that justify thier preferences.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I've been following along with this thread and I just wanted to add my comments.

First, I wanted to say that I think many of the issues here are really important. I really do think mamas need a place to vent and discuss IRL parenting differences within an "AP" environment. I think this for many reasons but one of the biggest is because of the way this thread went. I love that there are so many parents 'calling people out' on what feels like a lack of understanding for other parents (and why!) and the dialogue that has been going back an forth. It just seems like everyone has gotten something from this thread ~ I know I have.

Then I just wanted to say how impressed I am that this got pulled out of the negative stuff from earlier. Very nice!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I just love it when a previously tense thread ends peacefully


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
you can't really compare our children to simpler societies unless you have made a point to stick close to home base, respect your childs schedule, and leave them alone enough to find it. or inother words really really simplify. It is easy to look at some of the exapmples in the cc and say "all children benifit from having things left up to them" but realy what I see when I look at that book, the conclusion I draw is children benifit from natrual healthy diets. children benifit from simple, clutter free, appointment free lifestyles where thier schedules are rarely interupted. Children benifit from a life free of buzzing, flashing whirring, digitized, artificially lit, amplified, speed of light lifestyles so many of us have. They benifit from the routien and consistancy of uninterrupted, predictable, simple life.

Actually I haven't read the book, but my daughters temerament and my own dictate simplicity as much as possible. This is what we try to do _instinctually_.

Also, I recently pulled my dd from KG and began homeschooling because the experience overall was just too much for my child. Too loud, too chaotic, no time to socialize anyway ...

My daughter *does* have a bedtime, but it's much later than many kids her age. And, that's ok, cause it works for "US."

*Who knows perhaps I should have tossed in more play groups, classes and buzzers? According to some I'm certain that would have been the way to go. Why, she wouldn't have had trouble adjusting to school if I only had, right?







But, I know that my kiddo needs simplicity regardless of whether nor not I honor that. And I don't know that will ever change.* I'm certain I could get a doctor to prescribe a medication or two so she's not _who she IS,_ but, I think I'll refrain and just continue respecting _who she is._


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunar forest*
Oh, well put Anna!! That is exactly how I feel! I think we have the same son, here! (It will be interesesting to see how they interact with each other!)









About Dr. Sears' books: I, too, was disappointed, with exception of his ADD book. (I HATE lables, but I there are certain ones that we have, and run in our family, so it can be good to aknowlage, to a certain extent.) He just keeps describing my kids, over and over. I would recommend it, it's pretty darn good.









Thanks for the suggestion on the Sears ADD books, I am certain my dd falls into that category "technically" speaking. Her Dad was a ritalin kid, and I perhaps could have been?

Anyhow I'm reading over his website now, I love the manner in which he explains this:

http://askdrsears.com/html/10/t101000.asp

_...Although Johnny has the collection of traits known as A.D.D., like many children with A.D.D., he does not always display a deficit in attention (he is fine one-on-one and can focus on video games for hours), and he does not have a disorder in the usual sense of having an abnormality. The two "D's" in A.D.D. would tell more about the problem if they stood for difference and distractible.

*A.D.D. is most easily understood as a variation on normal patterns of behavior.* Unlike diseases such as tumors and bacterial infections, which produce abnormal symptoms, *A.D.D. is a grouping of normal characteristics which appear in some children more frequently, more obviously, and more intensely than in other children of the same age.* All children are impulsive, distractible and inattentive, some of the time. Children with A.D.D. are impulsive, distractible, and inattentive most of the time. They think, act, feel, and learn differently. This difference can work for or against them. It's important for parents to recognize and shape these different traits to work to the child's advantage, and for the child to conclude that it's okay to be different._

What's interesting about my child is that she is more intense than in other children of the same age. She's also impulsive, distractible and inattentive, but we do see changes depending on environment.

Remember the school scenario I mentioned above?

At school, she's totally overwhelmed, INTENSE, IMPULSIVE, DISTRACTIBLE, INATTENTIVE. At home, she's better able to cope. I think the "environment" is key for many of these kids. Interesting when we consider the point made about the continuim concept, because our lives ARE so chaotic, and often they don't need to be.

I read in a book I have about HSP "Highly Sensitive People" that schools in Sweden are more like "living rooms" ... I think that would be a much more friendly environment for children to learn?

Anyhow this has been quite interesting, thanks again. I always learn something at MDC.

*Sorry to be such a windbag!*







:


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devi*
At school, she's totally overwhelmed, INTENSE, IMPULSIVE, DISTRACTIBLE, INATTENTIVE. At home, she's better able to cope. I think the "environment" is key for many of these kids.

You dd sounds a lot like mine, Devi. She is not yet school age, but substitute "the mall" or "target" or "in large groups of kids" for "school" and you have it! We've been doing OT to help her (she needed it even for home life for a while there....), but now she would only really *need* ot if I were preparing her for school. So I am strongly rethinking the school-thing. School is an artificial environment, and I no longer believe that I should have to "normalize" my dd (to this society's standards, and on society's schedule) in order for her to go to school.

And, yes, I will get *lots* of criticism for that decision (I have not yet shared my plans....dreading it, actually). According to my entire family, everything will be much better for dd once she goes to school







. She will "learn" to cope.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
You dd sounds a lot like mine, Devi. She is not yet school age, but substitute "the mall" or "target" or "in large groups of kids" for "school" and you have it! We've been doing OT to help her (she needed it even for home life for a while there....), but now she would only really *need* ot if I were preparing her for school. So I am strongly rethinking the school-thing. School is an artificial environment, and I no longer believe that I should have to "normalize" my dd (to this society's standards, and on society's schedule) in order for her to go to school.

And, yes, I will get *lots* of criticism for that decision (I have not yet shared my plans....dreading it, actually). According to my entire family, everything will be much better for dd once she goes to school







. She will "learn" to cope.

Oh my they do sound similar! My daughter has always been prone to overstimulation ... school is no different. I rarely attempted to take her grocary shopping, but I do recall our trips to target LOL.

Have you read "The Highly Sensitive Child?" If not, I'd recommend it.

...

Not sure if we'll try public school at sometime in the future or not, but for now things are working nicely here at home.

Yes, do brace yourself once again for the naysayers should you decide to homeschool. *Of course our dd's would "learn to cope" but at what cost?* Thankfully there is much support (family aside) if homeschooling is what you decide.

_*Footnote, I meant not to imply that Moms who choose meds for their child/situation are not honoring who there children are.* I just think it's a decision that parents need to make, not doctors alone KWIM?_

Sorry about the nonsensical ramble earlier. I'm very tired today LOL.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

My dd sounds a lot like both of yours. She's five, as I mentioned earlier.

She's prone to freaking out and melting down about everything. I know manic depressive tendencies run in our family. But ya know what? There is nature and there is nurture. While I do believe that she may have an "altered" chemical makeup, I also believe that those chemicals can be balanced out over time with the proper guidance. I know this because I'm "curing" my tendencies without medication.

I'll try to be a bit more clear. I believe I was born with certain tendencies. Certain genetic traits that have been passed down through the women in my family. But which came first... the chicken or the egg? lol I say this because if someone experiences trauma, it can and does change the chemical makeup of the brain. So if generations of women weren't raised in secure and loving homes, and the women in my family are very sensitive to their environment and they were repeatedly traumatized through fighting, stress, inattentiveness, "spoiling", etc., it hardwired their neural pathways abnormally.

So while it only takes a brief period of time to change children's neural pathways for the WORSE, because their brains are still very pliable... like sponges... it takes many, many years of repetition and consciously working to change those chemicals in the brain so they are somewhat "normal" again. It means forcing "normal" behaviors and reactions until they begin to come naturally. For example: I'm on a severe downswing and feel like I can't move, dress, even brush my teeth. But I find the willpower to simply get through the next week or two doing the absolute BARE MINIMUM of what I need to do to get by. And I monitor my voice and my actions VERY CLOSELY around my children. It's taken me seven years to move one inch and I have a mile ago, but there IS progress. In our society we expect to get from A to Z with the push of a button or the pop of a pill, but our inner selves do not respond to this external clock, kwim?

I have my dd in a wonderful homebased Waldorf "preschool"... on the busiest day, there are six children total. She is the oldest in the class. And her teacher is wonderful.... she has a college-age daughter who was exactly like MY daughter is, so my dd gets to socialize and get away from me and her brother for a while in a small, safe environment where she feels secure. Now she can't wait to try a "real" school in September... I'm going to apply for a PT teacher assistant position at the real Waldorf school so she can go somewhere where her constant questioning and individuality will be welcomed, not put down.

Wow, it is really easy to rant today for some reason! I think the mods are gonna have to close the thread before it turns into twenty page essays! :LOL


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
Since you brought up continuim concept I would challenege that those children were on pretty strict schedules....

...but my point is you can't really compare our children to simpler societies unless you have made a point to stick close to home base, respect your childs schedule, and leave them alone enough to find it. or inother words really really simplify.

just a thought. a different take on the conclusions we can draw from book slike that. Why do we assume thier lives were chaotic and full of diversity from day to day and the kids were just along for the exciting ride. frmo what I read in the CC (and I didn't read the other one so I can not comment) I don't see that as the case (although as I remember that wasn't the case) again though people tend to look for conclusions that justify thier preferences.

Well, I don't assume that their lives were chaotic and full of diversity. I *do* try to keep things simple and stick close to home base. And I'm not looking for conclusions that justify my preferences. We read the books prior to DS's birth and when he was still a baby, so long before we were putting ideas into practice. I try to interpret it for our needs and our lifestyle, certainly, but I'm not abiding by any rules, simply trying to judge what my child needs by how he acts. It's a flowy existence, I suppose, but it's not, imo, doing any of us harm.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I was just throwing out some food for thought. Just pointing out that while the parents aren't watching clocks and rushing home for nap and night time doesn'tmean thier lives aren't very rythmic, routien and scheduled. That there may be more soicietal rules dictating thier days that the observer saw. after all wihtout much outsiode influence and nothing really pulling htem away to something better that participated in meaningful work happily enough andlet survival dictate thier days in a predictable comforting way. what else were ya gonnna do. it isn't like anyone was gonna plunkdown in front of a TV or even get caught up in a good book.

anyway, wasn't judging anyone here just saying there ismore to that book than saying the reason the children were happy is because they weren't forced to do anything outside of thier own schedule. I would imagine in that sort of primitive simple society life was pretty routien and scheudeled. Just somehting to think about.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Routine, not scheduled. This is, in my mind, a really really important point. When people say you have to put your child to bed at the same time every night, I find myself wondering how it is possible for a child to internally need this. Clocks are a pretty recent invention. Natural rhythms follow light and body patterns, and these are almost never perfectly regular according to clock time. Natural routine is more like ritual. Accuracy over precision. The social unit is very important. (I believe you when you say your 1st child fell asleep by the clock, but I am pretty sure she was picking up clock time from her environment. If clock influences had been absent from your life, I find it hard to believe there is a child who would just naturally be suffering because of that.)

I don't see how the Yekhuana lifestyle is more comparable to staying inside a suburban house all day than to being among whirring digitized stimuli. It sounds like you have experienced an overscheduled, overstressed lifestyle, and that (pretty much by definition) isn't good for anybody. Children show the stress -- including the stress *we* are experiencing -- more quickly than we do. But the truth is, Yekhuana mothers and mothers of many other traditional societies do not stay home or have what we would consider a simple life. A lot of everyday life occurs outside, in a highly stimulating and even dangerous -- although natural -- environment, with a level of practically necessary physical exertion and travel on foot most of us do not come close to experiencing. Babies are incorporated into this lifestyle; it isn't possible to rearrange everything around them. This is the kind of relationship to our environment in which our bodies and their needs evolved.

Most people who are committed to TCC do not find it to be largely a justification for what they would do anyway. Check out the Continuum list at www.continuum-concept.org: You will find that constantly or near constantly in-arms babies almost always object to the carseat, and many posters have made huge adjustments in their lives to accomodate their babies in this respect. They are not running their older children around to lessons and activities while popping baby in and out of the carseat. Many would believe that lots of lessons and activities undercut the intimate adult-child bonds that are important to growing securely into an adult social role, and segregate children from joining in the real adult world to learn about it. If you were to post a question about a child who had trouble falling asleep at night, you would almost inevitably get suggestions about using natural lighting and quiet activities in the evening, and perhaps going to bed earlier as a family. You would almost inevitably NOT get suggestions about establishing a child-centered, coercive routine involving putting just the child to bed at a certain clock time so that you could have your all-important "adult time" as a break in a day of otherwise uninterrupted child-centeredness. Or links to books and studies done on children with sleep problems that "prove" that waking to nurse causes health problems and therefore all children should be coerced to sleep in a certain way and on a certain schedule. I have absolutely never read a response suggesting that you ignore signs of fatigue because the book says so and your child will sleep if he needs to, regardless of what you do.

Based on research and thinking and experience, it is my impression that staying (inside an isolated nuclear) home and sitting around and being put down to sleep in an isolated place is not best for most children. This doesn't mean it is ok to ignore your child's cues, but it is certainly disingenuous to jump to the conclusion that any problem (for anyone else's child!) indicates that said child needs a standard western nap routine. This is a natural response to anxiety that we are not doing the best for our children. We step outside what is easy and approved of, and when there are problems, we always feel the pressure of blame. ("MIL must have been right after all...") Even when a standard western nap routine, in one particular context, allows someone who has trouble sleeping to get more sleep (which is great, assuming that greater harm is not done in the process), this does not indicate that his problems were all along caused by the lack of a standard western nap routine.

Sleep and discipline are two areas where the pressure is still really really hard to resist. It seems like it is much easier with breastfeeding, because there is so much sanctioned support for its health benefits, and we have decades of advocacy and a far larger population doing the "against the norm" (which is now actually pretty normal in many places) thing. I have noticed that very often, with regard to sleep and discipline, mothers who feel they are having desperate problems have many hold-outs in what adjustments they are willing to make and what possibilities they are willing to consider. I do not consider this "lazy," but I think it is often a product of shame and fear. Why be bitter about a dissonance between "AP ideals" and real life? We all have to make choices about what is best for us. If your perceived "AP ideals" are not really priorities *for you* but something you believe *should* be a priority, they aren't real ideals. "Sticking with them" would be dishonest. Children need honesty and coherence from their parents far more than they need any particular practice or routine. When you are making the right decision, it is the one in which shame and fear played little role. How can we raise liberated children without being liberated ourselves?

With this honesty and unlaziness, most people *can* solve their problems without using solutions (e.g. coersion, scheduling) that violate their ideals assuming these are true ideals they are willing to truly work for. (Note that I say work NOT sacrifice, because I honestly believe that on some level ultimately being in full commitment to your ideals is supposed to feel right and meet your needs, not be a win-lose scenario.) Again, though, ideals should be about accuracy, not precision, and the honesty part includes a degree of flexibility and openness. The connection, relationship, social unit and not the book are most important. But I don't see why being faithful to and living in these must be opposed to being faithful to and living according to ideals.

OMG, I am going ON AND ON AND ON. This has been my multi-page contribution explaining my discomfort. Like many of us, it taps into discomfort that comes up a lot reading about sleep and discipline issues at MDC. So little of this is about the logic of parenting practices, really, and so much more is about our inner lives as we experience what it is like to raise children.

ETA: Storytelling, musicmaking, dancing, holidays, and the like are universal human preoccupations. So while there the Yekhuana may not have TV, it's not like there is nothing analagous for them to do after dark. It is hard for me to believe that human life in ANY context has EVER been simple.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

candliland, I love the changed thread title. :LOL


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
My dd sounds a lot like both of yours. She's five, as I mentioned earlier.

She's prone to freaking out and melting down about everything. *I know manic depressive tendencies run in our family. But ya know what? There is nature and there is nurture. While I do believe that she may have an "altered" chemical makeup, I also believe that those chemicals can be balanced out over time with the proper guidance.* I know this because I'm "curing" my tendencies without medication.

I'll try to be a bit more clear. *I believe I was born with certain tendencies. Certain genetic traits that have been passed down through the women in my family. But which came first... the chicken or the egg?* lol I say this because if someone experiences trauma, it can and does change the chemical makeup of the brain. So if generations of women weren't raised in secure and loving homes, and the women in my family are very sensitive to their environment and they were repeatedly traumatized through fighting, stress, inattentiveness, "spoiling", etc., it hardwired their neural pathways abnormally.

So while it only takes a brief period of time to change children's neural pathways for the WORSE, because their brains are still very pliable... like sponges... it takes many, many years of repetition and consciously working to change those chemicals in the brain so they are somewhat "normal" again. It means forcing "normal" behaviors and reactions until they begin to come naturally. For example: I'm on a severe downswing and feel like I can't move, dress, even brush my teeth. But I find the willpower to simply get through the next week or two doing the absolute BARE MINIMUM of what I need to do to get by. And I monitor my voice and my actions VERY CLOSELY around my children. It's taken me seven years to move one inch and I have a mile ago, but there IS progress. In our society we expect to get from A to Z with the push of a button or the pop of a pill, but our inner selves do not respond to this external clock, kwim :LOL

Interestingly enough my mother is bi-polar and actually has schizoaffective disorder. She NEEDS her meds if she doesn't want to hallucinate.









First I'll respond to the Chicken or the Egg question









I once looked at things like you do and felt I could "prevent" bi-polar in my child. I now feel that it's probably not the case. The good news for us is that I am not bi-polar nor is my husband, so my daughter (from what I read) has about a 4% chance of becoming such. *And, a child with one bipolar parent has a 10% to 30% chance of becoming bipolar.

So to answer your question, I've come to the conclusion that the egg came first:

http://cms.psychologytoday.com/artic...23-000001.html

_*Bipolar disorder is often considered a condition that reflects genetic influence. A new twin study reveals just how genetic the disorder is.

If one identical twin develops bipolar disorder, the likelihood of the other twin developing the condition is 85 to 89%. The high probability of double trouble comes not from the environment the twins inhabited together while they were developing, but from the genes they share, reports a team of British and Canadian investigators. Only15% of instances of bipolar disorder can be attributed to factors specific to individuals or to their unique life experiences outside the family of origin.*_

I think we both agree that environment may play a *part* , we just have different ideas about what type of environment to provide our children to best prevent issues in the future? I feel that not "over-controlling" my child is KEY ... I think I should offer choices _when ever_ possible. I also think it's important not to add to her stressors as she is "easilly" stressed KWIM? *Not that I feel that your "overly controlling"* I'm just indicating my thought process on the matter. I also don't feel that kids can really be "spoiled" I think they can be "confused" as to what our expectations are. I also know that "stress" is a trigger for mental illness and it doesn't matter if it is well intended stress or not KWIM?

My heart goes out to you and I wish you well in your current situation. Bravo to you for treating your disorder in a cognitive manner!!! My guess is that you don't cut yourself much slack and thus expect your children to "manage their feelings?" I can understand that.

I know that fish oil EPA is supposed to help with bipolar/schizophrenia, perhaps that would be helpful to you?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
I was just throwing out some food for thought.

I'm sorry, I meant to thank you for that point, actually, but was feeling a tad defensive.







:


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

excellent post, eminer! Are you suggesting that there's a middle ground (of sorts) wherein we might (routinely) follow the needs and demands of this life in this culture, within our social framework and communities?


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Wow! Eminer, that was some post. Very thoughtful and profound. I will have to come back and read again (and maybe again). I like what you have to say. It really rings a bell for me about all the struggle and dissonance with reconciling AP standards to real life. ITA with you about ideals and commitment and whether something feels like work or sacrifice. If something is important to me I make a very willing sacrifice in order to do it. I like what Dr. Sears about changing things if you resent them. It is sort of a simpler way to say it.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*

*Many would believe that lots of lessons and activities undercut the intimate adult-child bonds that are important to growing securely into an adult social role, and segregate children from joining in the real adult world to learn about it.*
...
ETA: Storytelling, musicmaking, dancing, holidays, and the like are universal human preoccupations. So while there the Yekhuana may not have TV, it's not like there is nothing analagous for them to do after dark. It is hard for me to believe that human life in ANY context has EVER been simple.

I love your multi-page contribution eminer!

I'm not sure if your portion about a "simple life" is about my post or not, but I will respond as I believe it is, though I know other mamas have touched on the same issue?

It seems like you may be saying there is no such thing as simplicity so a child can not possibly need a simple environment? If I misunderstand my apologies.

If you are saying as much, I respectfully disagree.

I believe that dancing, music, storytelling are not overwhelming to most children as they are natural parts of humanity. *We have evolved to accept this type of stimuli IMHO.*

So, as I said - I do think that some kids/people do need more _simplicity_ in terms of _modern_ stimulation. Listening to music does not overwhem me "depending upon the type of music"









And, my child is/was prone to overstimulation always, and there isn't any one who can convince me otherwise.







*My child also responds very differently depending upon her environment.* Obviously we all do or camping would not be an enjoyable passtime.

I observed my dd at school (as I volunteered) and she was a very different child than she is at home. For example she doesn't cover her ears and hide under tables at home KWIM? As sunmama said, school is not a natural environment. At home there are not hundreds of kids screaming, bells ringing and rules that we not talk and sit still.

Here is an article that illustrates what I'm saying to a certain extent:

http://www.schoolzone.co.uk/resource...edesigning.asp

_We listened in awe at her descriptions of new schools in New Zealand where the environments had been designed for children. There were "soft" areas, areas with different temperatures, a drinking area in every classroom, fruit available for a snack at any time, ventilation and light sensitive to the weather. In short, the whole environment was dedicated to promoting feelings of well-being and therefore motivation to learn and focus.
...
We live in a society that often seems to value high levels of stimulation. This can lead to confusion, tiredness and lack of clarity. There is too much to take in and this affects our thinking. Think of a store or display that has this effect on you. This is also the case in classrooms and particularly so for children still learning to focus and discriminate. We need to think how to best facilitate these skills by the environments we offer._

I'm not personally entirely privy to the continuim concept, as I felt the claims that a child that never cries if one does XYZ, were not very realistic? Perhaps in a tribal "outdoor" setting this is possible? Or perhaps I misunderstood the claims of the book.

Also I think that most people are *soothed* by the sights, sounds and smells of nature as well as certain music, story telling etc. because we've evolved to appreciate these things. For example, I find it much more relaxing to 'camp' than to sit in traffic KWIM? I think we all do.

Also, we have a basic bedtime (give or take an hour) *but it's when the whole house goes to sleep as you noted.* Not that I would discourage other parents from a different solution for their home, but as I said that works for us.

Thanks for the input, great post!

I hope I didn't misunderstand your point about simplicity.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
candliland, I love the changed thread title. :LOL

Ha! Me too.

In the end I think what we've all learned is that many "AP" parents whom we don't always see eye to eye with, are not _necessarily_ "controlling" or "lazy" but are likely thoughtful people with whom we don't always agree?

I don't think I've posted this much in a thread since prior to the election. Wow!


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Hey, Devi, you misspelled necessarily!







Did I misspell misspell? There's only one s isn't there? :LOL


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
Hey, Devi, you misspelled necessarily!







Did I misspell misspell? There's only one s isn't there? :LOL

Necessarilly? Neccesarily? Bah! :LOL

I KNEW my snotty reply about spelling would come back to hawnt, er uhm ... haunt.

I'm certain that isn't my only spelling error, in fact I mispelled _temperAment_ several times! I mean why the hell do we need that "a" anyway?

SHHHHHHHH!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

hey Anna, sorry if my first post didn't clarify. My dh walked into the room and did the "you gonna be on that thing al night? grumble grouse (and he had a point it was 1AM somehting :LOL) and I hit send wihtout really proof reading or even completing the thought.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
Are you suggesting that there's a middle ground (of sorts) wherein we might (routinely) follow the needs and demands of this life in this culture, within our social framework and communities?

I think so -- that sounds good.  I liked when you used the word "interpret" in talking about how you relate to TCC. I think the details of adapting have to be worked out in the middle ground, from some core conception or really relationship (with your child, in this case). Questions like, "Are routines good?" or "Is CIA ok?" don't mean very much except in the real context where you can intuit what is going on. But there is necessarily something informing your intuition.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devi*
I'm not sure if your portion about a "simple life" is about my post or not, but I will respond as I believe it is, though I know other mamas have touched on the same issue?

Actually, I was mainly responding to what Sandra said about TCC. I was just saying that indigenous Amazonians have plenty to keep them from sleeping, too. 

Quote:

My child also responds very differently depending upon her environment. Obviously we all do or camping would not be an enjoyable passtime.
Well, camping is NOT an enjoyable passtime [sic]  for me! The relaxing nature of nature comes at least partly from its cultural meanings (e.g. idyllic, untouched, benign) and our vantage point (usually recreation rather than survival). Stimulation is a complicated subject. I readily acknowledge that your dd is highly sensitive and applaud you for being responsive to that, but I wonder if she would have been highly sensitive in a different cultural setting (one with different music, for example), too. With school, I get the idea that part of the problem is that your dd is not free to regulate her own intake, e.g. by going off by herself or following her physical impulses? I agree that school is not a natural environment... Do you think that many other unnatural environments, or unnatural phenomena that are hard for us to adapt to, exist in our cultural setting?

I guess that my perspective partly comes from the fact that where and how I live, it would be virtually impossible to stay home all the time (and follow an at-home nap routine). People adapt to that. For example, most city babies and toddlers have no trouble napping in their strollers and the stroller functions as a "comfort zone". My dd has always used my body to avoid overstimulation. And of course, if we as adults are listening to our bodies and feelings, we give ourselves rest spaces in the day, whether at home or somewhere else, and we can adjust the amount of rest space to accomodate an easily overstimulated family member. Given all of this, my impression is that the vast majority of kids (yes, we are all neurologically different, so not all!) can adapt to often being around a lot of people and noise and other stimuli -- i.e. adapt to the real world in which their parents live -- without becoming sleep-deprived maniacs. Experience plays a role, influences what we tune out and how much certain stimuli impress themselves upon us.

Quote:

I'm not personally entirely privy to the continuim concept, as I felt the claims that a child that never cries if one does XYZ, were not very realistic? Perhaps in a tribal "outdoor" setting this is possible? Or perhaps I misunderstood the claims of the book.
Almost never, but of course, "if one does XYZ" is the sticking point. We tend to encounter various issues having to do with our more sedentary lifestyle, lack of support (no "tribe"), ingrained expectations, etc. Also, diet and physical problems can cause a baby to be distressed. And then as the baby becomes older and assimilates his culture more, self-expression gets more culturally specific. Most of us at MDC agree that all-out crying is a (late-ish) distress sign. One idea in The Continuum Concept is that for a baby, it generally *is possible* to eliminate virtually all distress by being meeting fairly simple (ha - the word!), if not always easy -- in our cultural setting -- to meet, needs. The myth of the fall weighs very heavily on the author, and so this is supposed to be a big illumination: happiness is possible if we trust human nature! The interpretation and adaptation process tends to become a lifelong process, though.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

And about spelling: I used to have trouble understanding how fairly literate people could confuse there and their and they're. Until I got on the internet. Now I do it ALL THE TIME without even noticing. Stream-of-consciousness typing and good spelling don't mix!


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
Actually, I was mainly responding to what Sandra said about TCC. I was just saying that indigenous Amazonians have plenty to keep them from sleeping, too. 

Sorry for responding to your response to another person.







:

The song "your so vein" comes to mind:

_"Your so vein, I bet you think this post is about you ..."_







... it's an old song by Carly Simon about James Taylor for those not familiar.

I originally had a much more long winded reply further explaining my views, but decided instead to post this short quote:

_You intuitively know how best to raise your child. If it doesn't feel right in your soul, dismiss it- for such things are true. ~ Jane Leidloff_

While I haven't read the book she wrote, I do believe this is the key.

We all know our children if we are attached and we are "hopefully" making the decisions that are best for "them" and our familes in general.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

I was the one who went on and on without specifying to whom!


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
I was the one who went on and on without specifying to whom!

It's easy to get lost in this thread :LOL


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
I think so -- that sounds good.  I liked when you used the word "interpret" in talking about how you relate to TCC. I think the details of adapting have to be worked out in the middle ground, from some core conception or really relationship (with your child, in this case). Questions like, "Are routines good?" or "Is CIA ok?" don't mean very much except in the real context where you can intuit what is going on. But there is necessarily something informing your intuition.

Absolutely - parenting in large part is intuiting what is right for our children and our families. I can tell what my child needs even if he can't tell me in words. I can tell when the cries are fearful or needy or simply angry. That is because I _know_ my child. It is a hard line to walk as a parent when we need to be both objective and subjective at times to see if an idea that we come across is appropriate for our children - to gauge who they are and what they need and if perhaps annoying behaviors aren't symptoms of something wrong, or simply age-appropriate responses to varying stimuli yet not illness or anxiety.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Well, back to the OP, a case in point- I was at a funeral last night. It was for the husband of a midwife, so babies were obviously welcome. I didn't bring my ten year old since she didn't want to go. Anyone younger I would have found childcare for, since it is so hard for small children to be still and quiet. Long story short, once the ceremony began, most parents took their kids to them and kept them quiet. When a baby called out too loudly, the parent would take them out, obviously. So the lobby had a few people walking their babies and still listening quietly to the prayers- I was one of these folks at one time. But one woman had her four year old out there, and that child was stamping around with her hard shoes on the tile floor, and having a really loud conversation with her friend!! And her mother did not say *one word* to her!! So that, I think, is what the OP was getting at. This child attends the coop preschool I mentioned where a lot of the parents treat their kids this way. I don't think she should have been punished or anything of the sort. Her mother didn't even need to be stern, but why could she say nothing at all, just grin goofily?! Not even aware her kid was causing all the noise and those of us in the lobby couldn't even hear the rabbi. There is nothing wrong with telling your child to be quiet or that s/he has to stay home because it's a special occasion that requires a certain level of decorum. That's what seems to be the difference between "gentle discipline" and "I'm too frightened of my child to guide their behaviour."


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
Not even aware her kid was causing all the noise and those of us in the lobby couldn't even hear the rabbi.

Did you mention the problem to the mother or the child? Maybe she really was unaware that it was a problem?


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Did you mention the problem to the mother or the child? Maybe she really was unaware that it was a problem?

Yes, people tried to shush her child and she remained blank and beaming, ever delighted in her darling. It was a very small lobby and it is impossible for her not to have realized her child was the only person making noise. Even if they hadn't said anything, I'm sorry, that's inexcusably rude.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
Yes, people tried to shush her child and she remained blank and beaming, ever delighted in her darling. It was a very small lobby and it is impossible for her not to have realized her child was the only person making noise. Even if they hadn't said anything, I'm sorry, that's inexcusably rude.

We don't know if the Mother you mention used "GD" as and "excuse _not_ to discipline, do we?"









While I would have taken my child to another room, I don't know this Mothers rationale for not doing so.

Perhaps the Mother was a harsh disciplinarian and wasn't comfortable "striking" her child in a crowd? Or perhaps as you say she was a GD/AP Mom who felt that her dd's behavior was totally appropriate for a 4 year old and that others should accept that? *My guess is that she was ignorant to the fact that it was troubling people?*

I'm not defending the lack of action on the part of the Mother, nor am I criticizing her. I just think that we all view things a bit differently, and we don't know her motives?

And, I still fail to see how some of the examples given have diddly to do with the subject matter?







:


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

"I'm too frightened of my child to guide their behaviour."







[/QUOTE]

LizD: I find it interesting that you think this mother was frightened of her child. What makes you think this? Was the child in some way scary?


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I happen to know this woman and yes, she thinks "gentle discipline" means never saying no to your child. I can't help but think "was the child in some way scary?" is a dig at my comment. No, the child wasn't scary, duh. The mother is spineless and couldn't leave her home for a funeral, nor could she tell her to be quiet, because everything every child does is normal and appropriate and wonderful. It's back to parents who are too lazy to deal with their children's inevitable protests when prevented from doing something they want to do. As far as it having to do with the subject matter, I thought the OP was venting about obnoxious people who don't discipline their children in even the gentlest ways because they somehow feel unable to, and think that everything kids do should be welcome everywhere, at all times. Even indigenous cultures have ceremonies inappropriate for children.

Maybe people who talk and answer the phone during movies don't realize they're causing a problem, but they should know better, just as this woman should. Come on.


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
I happen to know this woman and yes, she thinks "gentle discipline" means never saying no to your child. I can't help but think "was the child in some way scary?" is a dig at my comment. No, the child wasn't scary, duh. *The mother is spineless* and couldn't leave her home for a funeral, nor could she tell her to be quiet, *because everything every child does is normal and appropriate and wonderful.* It's *back to parents who are too lazy* to deal with their children's inevitable protests when prevented from doing something they want to do. As far as it having to do with the subject matter, *I thought the OP was venting about obnoxious people who don't discipline their children in even the gentlest ways because they somehow feel unable to,* and think that everything kids do should be welcome everywhere, at all times. Even indigenous cultures have ceremonies inappropriate for children.

Maybe people who talk and answer the phone during movies don't realize they're causing a problem, but they should know better, just as this woman should. Come on.

Some of you people sure run into alot of Moms who are _"lazy, afraid, spineless, and obnoxious ... "_









I'm starting to rethink my previous notion that AP Moms are open and respectful of choice/perspective. I'd like to thank many of you for enlightening me to the fact that some AP moms are as judgemental and rigid as the mainstream _armchair_ parents I had hoped to find refuge from.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

LizD, no it wasn't a dig at you. It was a serious question. You have described this woman as afraid of her child. I see that you have clarified that you don't believe that she is frightened but rather that she is spineless, lazy and obnoxious. I understand now. It was merely your dig at the woman whose child's behavior you found difficult at a funeral.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Elizabeth--
I think you are saying a lot of different things, and not all of them may be true.

1. She thinks "everything every child does is normal and appropriate and wonderful".

2. She is "too lazy to deal with their children's inevitable protests when prevented from doing something they want to do."

3. And she is afraid of her child's reactions (temper tantrums?). Afraid is very different from lazy.

I think any one of these *may* be true, but all 3 are unlikely to exist together.

I mean, if the first is true, then the others probably are not: she just has a higher tolerance for childish behavior, and maybe she herself has some rough social edges, and she does not realize the behavior is bothering others. That isn't laziness or fear. In fact, she *did* bring the child into the lobby--so she took some action. Maybe she thought that was enough? That the lobby was an ok place for her child to play?

Laziness speaks for itself.

Fearfulness--well, I *have* been fearful of my dd's reactions. Afraid as in "OMG there is something wrong with my dd" and as in "Omg, I am alone in the middle of the supermarket and she is working up to an explosion and how the hell am I going to get her out of here before she blows?!" That is not a happy place







That is not a mama who is beaming and happy. That is a mama who is desperate and in dire need of support and *help*.

I think clear communication would be very helpful in the first 2 scenarios (especially the first--where the parent is happily oblivious). "Friend, I am having difficulty hearing the Rabbi over the playful stomping. Could you help me?"


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## Devi (Jul 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Elizabeth--
I think you are saying a lot of different things, and not all of them may be true.

1. She thinks "everything every child does is normal and appropriate and wonderful".

2. She is "too lazy to deal with their children's inevitable protests when prevented from doing something they want to do."

3. And she is afraid of her child's reactions (temper tantrums?). Afraid is very different from lazy.

I think any one of these *may* be true, but all 3 are unlikely to exist together.

I mean, if the first is true, then the others probably are not: she just has a higher tolerance for childish behavior, and maybe she herself has some rough social edges, and she does not realize the behavior is bothering others. That isn't laziness or fear. In fact, she *did* bring the child into the lobby--so she took some action. Maybe she thought that was enough? That the lobby was an ok place for her child to play?

Laziness speaks for itself.

Fearfulness--well, I *have* been fearful of my dd's reactions. Afraid as in "OMG there is something wrong with my dd" and as in "Omg, I am alone in the middle of the supermarket and she is working up to an explosion and how the hell am I going to get her out of here before she blows?!" That is not a happy place







That is not a mama who is beaming and happy. That is a mama who is desperate and in dire need of support and *help*.

I think clear communication would be very helpful in the first 2 scenarios (especially the first--where the parent is happily oblivious). "Friend, I am having difficulty hearing the Rabbi over the playful stomping. Could you help me?"


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

my point is you can't really compare our children to simpler societies unless you have made a point to stick close to home base, respect your childs schedule, and leave them alone enough to find it.

This is the area where I have run into judgement from "non-coersive" parents. I do have a busy lifestyle- I classicly homeschool my kids, they are both in activities, plus I work part time ( at church), often taking them with me. If dh is not home when I have to take dd to dance class, the boys _have_ to get ready to go too ( this year dh can usually stay with them, but I don't know how it will work next year.) And while they do tend to sleep til they wake up 5-6 days a week, on Sunday mornings, they do have to get up, and be ready to go with me.
And they have adapted well to it. It may not be "natural", but by being conssitent they ( the older two at least) are at apoint where if we send them for a bath at 7:30 ish, then have them get into bed with a book, they turn off their light by 8:30-9. (Not so we can have "adult time", but because dh and I are both completely ready to drop by then).

I know some parents have looked at my life and feel it is to "inflexible", but I think we are doing the best we can to meet the needs of 5 very different people.


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