# What's wrong with saying "Good Job"??



## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

I was just informed that it's a "no no" in some GD circles to tell a child "good job".

I was just wondering why that is....

TIA
Kelly


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

You should check out Alfie kohn's webpage www.alfiekohn.org especially this article Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!". It is a summary of his excellent, easy-to-read book "Punished By Rewards".


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Here's an article from Naturalchild.org that you might like in addition to the Alfie Kohn information.

http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_gr...ds_praise.html


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Thanks a lot, mama!


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

I just read that article. I'm not sure I agree with it.

I do agree that missue of the phrase 'good job' or spoken too often diminshes what it's supposed to do.

I use that phrase around my home sparingly. But I do use it when I notice something the children have done well.

hmmm....must go think about this somemore.....


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I tell my kids "Good job" when I think they've done a good job.







I also say "I think it's great you gave it a shot!" and a variety of other things.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I just posted about 'getting out of the praise habit' since at the preschool I work at, we were told the less tangible rewards and things like 'good job!' etc., the better.

I would say the theory is, people get in the habit of praising EVERY LITTLE THING because we want the kids to feel good about what they do, know we like them, etc. etc. etc.

But it's good for kids to learn to do things just for the sake of doing too, for the sake of learning, fun, the process, not the end result and the reward or praise it may bring. Also, kids *know* if you don't *really* mean it, or if they don't *really* deserve it, what they did wasn't a huge deal, etc. (one example I read in a teachers' mag was a teacher who praised every little thing her 1st graders did, it didn't mean anything to them anymore because they got praised for EVERYTHING.)

There is, of course, a time and place for praise and rewards, IMO, but they can be overused....this is something I'm working on.








I think praise is like the word 'no' or using a stern voice, or time away from an activity--it should be saved for the big things so that kids don't start to tune it out, so that they know when you are REALLY impressed.







Just like you want them to know when it's VERY important for them to stop what they're doing.


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

My thoughts exactly. I like to surprise my kids with a 'good job' when I notice they've done their chores or folded their laundry without me asking. I've never heard that you could praise too much. For every negative thing that slips out of my mouth it'll take that many more praises to erase it.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I think it's unfortunate that that Alfie Kohn article people are always linking to and talking about is called, "Five Reasons to Stop Saying 'Good Job.'" A lot of people (even people who actually read the article) seem to end up thinking that there's supposed to be a problem with that particular phrase: "good job." _Saying "good job" is no worse than praising your kid in any other way_.

The problem with "good job" is NOT that it's not descriptive enough; it's NOT that it's often said automatically or insincerely; it's NOT that parents say it too often about too many things. The problem is that it's praise and, believe it or not, praising your kids may not always be a good thing.

If you're skeptical about the "praise is bad" idea, you should read _Punished by Rewards_ or _Unconditional Parenting_ (both by Alfie Kohn.) I wasn't convinced when I read "Five Reasons to Stop saying 'Good Job,'" but the books go into a lot more detail and are quite convincing.


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## white_feather (Sep 17, 2004)

Again, it's all about moderation. Too much praise is obviously meaningless and harmful to a child. But then, so is too little . . .

My parents like to embarass me by telling the story of when I was a kid, I'd bring them sloppy, scribbled pictures when they KNEW I could do a better job. So, they decided to stop telling me how wonderful my scribbles were, and tried to actually show me how to draw something. It wasn't till then that my pictures improved, and I actually spent some time invested in the process.

So, I do see the point about too much praise being ultimately harmful to how a child functions.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I don't like the "good job" thing because of my personal issues.







: As a child (and now, too) I have felt pressured and anxious when I get praise!

Also, I look back on my education . . .I always wanted to get good grades but I learned next to nothing. DH, on the other hand, did poorly in school because he could care less about grades, but he is SO smart and knows so much . . .I realized it's because when he learned something it's because he cared about WHAT he was learning versus the "reward" of the grade (a form of a reward/punishment).

I look at it this way-- would you say it to an adult? Some might, but I feel it's condescending.


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

The one thing that jumped out at me from Unconditional Parenting was that we shouldn't be anti-praise, we should (whenever possible) be anti-JUDGEMENT. Kids don't need us to pass judgement (pro or con) on every single thing. I do still celebrate with my kids when they accomplish something, and I thank them when they do something that helps me, and I point out the effects of their actions (good or bad) on others. But Unconditional Parenting really did help me stop giving out manipulative and judgmental praise.

As to the argument "I like to be praised by/give praise to my coworkers" - maybe what we're after here is to raise kids who won't NEED praise as an adult. Wouldn't it be nice to have that "good job" backpat come from within yourself? When I clean a dirty tub, I don't need my DH to "praise" me, or even to notice it. It feels good to me to clean the tub, and to bathe in a clean tub. If I write a newsletter at work, and I'm proud of it, I don't need my boss to praise it (perhaps not a good example, since my boss is a complete idiot. Actually, if he liked it I might worry. But I digress.)

It is confusing. But I've noticed that since I've started focussing on descriptions (pos and neg) with my kids, then I've felt better able to guide them to feeling those internal rewards.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *obiandelismom*
The one thing that jumped out at me from Unconditional Parenting was that we shouldn't be anti-praise, we should (whenever possible) be anti-JUDGEMENT. Kids don't need us to pass judgement (pro or con) on every single thing. I do still celebrate with my kids when they accomplish something, and I thank them when they do something that helps me, and I point out the effects of their actions (good or bad) on others. But Unconditional Parenting really did help me stop giving out manipulative and judgmental praise.

That's a really great way of stating it. I haven't read Kohn's book yet (on hold at the library) but I like his other work about rewards and punishments. I think the Love & Logic and Faber & Mazlish books (to different degrees) also work with the "observation" and I find it very, very useful in difficult discipline situations as well or emotionally stressful situations in addition to "praise-worthy" situations. I think it also helps provide a good model for being able to really communicate as an adult. It's hard for me, precisely because I was brought up on the good girl/bad girl/ good job/bad job method of discipline. Along with lots of physical stuff to accompany.

But, this technique is one that has really helped us, particularly as our daughter has grown older. Not that one has to be a cold fish about it, which is how I think some people imagine it.


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

I'm reading Kohn's book now, and I don't think the issue is that "good job" is overused (though that's true), but that it's a value judgement, as Obi said. In fact, Kohn talks about how using "good job" only in sparse amounts when done with the wrong kind of attitude can be a lot worse than using "good job" too much. People who use it to encourage behaviors that they find "desirable" (conditional), make kids go through that many more loops to earn their favor. KWIM?

It's hard to explain in such a short space. I really recommend his book, Unconditional Parenting. I definitely have a tendency to use praise a lot because I never got any as a kid! But I've learned that going the "opposite" way is just the same thing - praise is about MY value judgement about what ds is doing. But what ds finds helpful is my support of his ability to assess himself. It's such a subtle but important distinction. And "good job" seems to be such an innocuous phrase, but it does have the impact of making the child feel that there is always a judgement to go with his or her "performance".


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I try to minimize the amount of judgement I place on what my daughter does.

I remember my parents complementing my singing voice and it made me feel like singing was something to be evaluated. I'd always done it just for fun, and, then, with the complement, I became really self-conscious and stopped singing, even in church.

And, really, good job doesn't convey much information to a child. When my daughter draws a picture, I try to get her to talk about the picture and to describe what I see. I think that makes her feel better than my judging her work as good (or bad).


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
Also, I look back on my education . . .I always wanted to get good grades but I learned next to nothing. .

This is *such* an excellent point. I was so into getting good grades and the rewards that I got for it, that I often didn't understand much of what I was learning. For example, I could memorize something for math without understanding the fundamental concepts. Therefore, I couldn't retain the knowledge I acquired.

I really think that all the gold stars and "good jobs" I got on my work in first grade made me motivated, not so much to learn, but rather to get more gold stars and more "good jobs" from my teachers.

It's not like I never evaluate my daughter's work - it's sort of a habit - but I do try to get her to just feel good about the process of what she's doing rather than in the end product or some secondary reinforcer.


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

My daughter and her friend practiced a song and made up a dance to go with it. When they were done we clapped and said "good job. awesome! I really liked it when you down to one knee and ducked your heads. that was great!" To which the girls said " we're glad you liked it".

My other daughter colored a picture. She showed to me , proud of herself. I complemented the color she used. I told her I liked the orange and purple mixed together in the sunset. I asked her what medium she used. She said 'colored pencils...but mom? Didja notice I stayed inside the lines ?" I said "yes I did notice. It looks like you tried very hard". She said " I sure did. I'm proud of myself. " I said " and well you should be. good job."

I fail to see how using 'good job' is harmful to them. Can someone explain to me what I could've said differently in those instances ?


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Do you like it when you boss is proud and says - "Hey, good work! You did top notch on the assignment!" Or when you husband says - "Wow, I loved dinner!" or a friend says "wow, YOU drew that? It's very very good!" etc etc

I strongly disagree with *not* praising your child. Everyone deserves a little recognition for goodness sakes.







Praise boosts sel-esteem when it's not false flattery. Children by the way know when it's real praise or fluffy flattery.


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen123*
My daughter and her friend practiced a song and made up a dance to go with it. When they were done we clapped and said "good job. awesome! I really liked it when you down to one knee and ducked your heads. that was great!" To which the girls said " we're glad you liked it".

My other daughter colored a picture. She showed to me , proud of herself. I complemented the color she used. I told her I liked the orange and purple mixed together in the sunset. I asked her what medium she used. She said 'colored pencils...but mom? Didja notice I stayed inside the lines ?" I said "yes I did notice. It looks like you tried very hard". She said " I sure did. I'm proud of myself. " I said " and well you should be. good job."

I fail to see how using 'good job' is harmful to them. Can someone explain to me what I could've said differently in those instances ?

Disclaimer: I don't kave kids yet but have worked with them for the last 6 years...







I've also read all of Alfie Kohn's books and really respect his ideas. I particularly like his point that rewards and punishment are 2 sides of the same coin: they are both coercive, temporary and serve to disconnect the child/person from the task at hand.

The instances that you are pointing out seem fine to me. You praised them yet also commented specifically on what you enjoyed & engaged them. Kohn is asking that people try to think more deeply about the dignity of children. And is speaking more about the constant stream of meaningless "good job!"s that most kids hear ("Good job eating your sandwich!" "Good job not hitting your sister!"). Look up more os his stuff on his site...no one here is saying to not ever praise children...that's absurd!

A first-hand example: I work in a clinical setting helping to remediate learning disorders. Our company introduced "Star Cards" about a year ago. This is a card that one puts stars on & after 50 stars the kid gets a "prize," usually a cheap plastic party favor kind of prize. This has been so disheartening to me. Whereas we used to try to help the child understand why they were there and how we would help them (so that they could _own_ their progress), now they are hyper-focused on the stars...to the point at which they get a star for anything now (otherwise they would stop working at all). Also these cards were meant to be a motivation for hard-to-motivate students. Once the other children see that so-and-so get's a "prize" they don't want to work either. It makes them see that what they are doing is basically bullsh*t; it is now a game.We have effectively removed the idea that they "own" their progress and now just work for the "prize."







the parents seem to think that it's a good thing. We refer to them privately as "Bribery Cards." It is a corporate policy that we use them but we've decided to go maverick and just stop the nonsense. Our students need to realize that they are there to get help to learn to do something that used to be hard for them, not obsess over 50 cent trinkets.

I guess it comes down to this: constant praise for normal stuff makes anyone feel lied to. If my boss came up to me all big-eyed & excited and said: "good job sending that fax that you were supposed to send today! I really like how you cross-checked the accounts!" I would think she was nuts...and a liar.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jen123*
I use that phrase around my home sparingly. But I do use it when I notice something the children have done well.


Jen, I find that being more descriptive allows my son to understand _why_ I think he is doing a good job. And there are other ways to offer encouragement, praise, joy and happiness.

Rather than saying "Good Job!" when he completes (or whatever toddlers do :LOL) a painting, I might say, "The way you used all the colors is ___________" or "The shapes you made are beautiful." When he catches the ball, instead of "good job" I might say "Wow, you caught it!" (how is it that whenever I write posts on this subject I can never come up with good examples, but in real life it seems so readily happening?







)

I make observations ("There are three circles" or "You caught it!"), ask questions ("how did you make that house?") and specifically talk about what I think is good or great ("That was such a good idea to move the table here.")

*MrsMoe:* I would rather my boss say, "The report you prepared was very detailed, well written and will definitely please the client" than "Good Job!" It would be more beneficial to me to know _why_ she thinks I did a good job. Good is subjective.

I praise my child, but I always choose my words very carefully. I do not want to be the defining factor in my son's feelings. I do not want his actions, words and feelings to be made on what he thinks other people want. I do not want him to do x activity because he thinks he will be praised or because it will make me happy. I do not want my son to paint because it makes me happy. I want him to paint because he loves to paint. I praise him when I know he is proud (happy/excited/pleased/surprised/etc) of himself. Not because I am proud (etc) of him.

There have been a few threads about this very topic. I am not feeling so eloquent.







:


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Do you like it when you boss is proud and says - "Hey, good work! You did top notch on the assignment!" Or when you husband says - "Wow, I loved dinner!" or a friend says "wow, YOU drew that? It's very very good!" etc etc

But the point here is that there is a big difference from my boss saying "Hey, good work! You did top notch on the assignment!" vs. "Good job staying in the margins on that report!" or my dh saying "Wow, I loved dinner!" vs. "I really liked how you scrubbed up the pee dribbles off of the floor around my toilet! Good Job!"

kwim?


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alliwenk*
or my dh saying "Wow, I loved dinner!" vs. "I really liked how you scrubbed up the pee dribbles off of the floor around my toilet! Good Job!"

Eww. You serve your DH dinner in the bathroom? Man, and my husband thought I was tough about dinnertime manners.


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraeileen*
Eww. You serve your DH dinner in the bathroom? Man, and my husband thought I was tough about dinnertime manners.










mais oui!

thanks for getting my point...

how about:

dh: "I really like how you _insert-boring-everyday-crap-that-everyone-knows-i-hafta-do_! GOOD JOB!"

Hope that is more clear and to the point







.


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

Again, I think Kohn's idea is to keep kids from growing up to be people who NEED praise for scrubbing pee dribbles. If you constantly get external motivation for stuff, then you never develop internal motivation. Although pee dribbles are a pretty "external" motivator, come to think of it.









Plus, if you are being infantalized by silly praise, obviously that's going to encourage you to keep going for that easy (but substance-less) boost. Like a candy habit, kinda - you need the sugar for the energy rush because your energy is so low from all the sugar you already had...

I like the part of the book when he talks about people's discomfort with this idea. He says that after he gives a talk, adults will come up to him and say, "That was a really interesting speech. Although maybe I shouldn't say I liked it. Heh heh heh."

:LOL


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *obiandelismom*
If you constantly get external motivation for stuff, then you never develop internal motivation. Although pee dribbles are a pretty "external" motivator, come to think of it.









:LOL that they *are* obiandelismom! I'll try to remember that next Sat. whilst I'm wipin' them up _*eeeeewwwww*_


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I COMPLETELY agree with the previous posters who identified that . . .
(1) It's more about becoming judgment-free more than anti-praise

and

(2) That the point is to NOT NEED praise. Wouldn't that be an amazing feeling . . .?


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

I was in a RIE (magda gerber) playgroup for over a year with my son who is now 2 1/2. It was very hard for all the parents to get use to the idea of not using "Good Job". For most of us the best thing that came from talking about it and practicng "sportscasting " with the kids was that we were being more specific and our faces showed how pleased or excited we were. Good job is soooooo over used and can confuse kids. Listen to our parents generation who tell their grandkids good job for eating their breakfast and for drinking their milk . It can become empty praise. "sportscasting " can also open up all kinds of conversation wit your kids as they get older. Another great book on on the subject is "Becoming the Parent you want to be".

Of course we still use good job just not all the time .


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## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

What is the definition of praise that we are using here? I use praise as a synonym for any positive feedback. I don't think that not needing social feedback is an admirable state. Isn't is called sociopathy? I'm not trying to be snarky, just have limited typing time and looking for clarification.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alliwenk*
But the point here is that there is a big difference from my boss saying "Hey, good work! You did top notch on the assignment!" vs. "Good job staying in the margins on that report!" or my dh saying "Wow, I loved dinner!" vs. "I really liked how you scrubbed up the pee dribbles off of the floor around my toilet! Good Job!"

kwim?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *alliwenk*
mais oui!

thanks for getting my point...

how about:

dh: "I really like how you _insert-boring-everyday-crap-that-everyone-knows-i-hafta-do_! GOOD JOB!"

Hope that is more clear and to the point







.


What a sweet kind way to word what you said. *cough* My husband works full time, I am a stay at home mom... and yet he still he cooks as much as I do because he enjoys making fun gormet dinners. He was a cook in a well known place for several years before getting his computer degree. And when I make a kick butt dinner, he thanks me for it, and it makes me feel good because cooking is his hobby. No need to be rude in your reply to what I said by being catty going on about pee dribbles on a toilet. Your comment was not appreciated.

By the way, you were very clear and to the point.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

edited because it was a direct quote- quoting is not allowed on MDC


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

I wasn't being catty to you or anyone else MrsMoe.

My pee response followed a quote of loraeileen's. My response to you followed a quote of _yours_. See the difference?

My responses are not always about you.









Allison


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Such as in this thread when you said *Wow! Your DH did sounds amazing!*

Sounded like praise to me, how about you?

Once again, we are not saying that all praise is bad per se; have you read the other responses or any of the links? And this is a discussion regarding children, not the praise that adults give to each other. And, before you point it out, I did speak of adult praise above. My example was a hyperbolic contrast to your earlier example.

Allison


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## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

Ahh...just read the link (should have done that before I posted above, huh?) I think I am reading correctly that there is a distinct difference between praise that is given as a substitute for a child's own evaluation, and feedback that reinforces it, i.e. the difference between praising dd as soon as she does something, versus joining in with her when SHE is celebrating an accomplishment. I do a lot of the latter, but not too much of the former, unless she really blows me away.

What about thanking? I thank dd a lot. She's 16 months, and has really started to be helpful around the house. She helps me unload the dishwasher and the dryer, clean up her spills, etc. When she helps me, I thank her, sometimes repeatedly. I would also thank an adult in her position, but probably not every time they handed me a dish! She seems to really enjoy it, but she is very motivated to help me already, and I don't want to quash that.


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

Quote:

there is a distinct difference between praise that is given as a substitute for a child's own evaluation, and feedback that reinforces it










That's a great way to put it!


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

This is how I feel, too:

Quote:

I think I am reading correctly that there is a distinct difference between praise that is given as a substitute for a child's own evaluation, and feedback that reinforces it, i.e. the difference between praising dd as soon as she does something, versus joining in with her when SHE is celebrating an accomplishment.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mollykatsmom*
.
What about thanking? I thank dd a lot. She's 16 months, and has really started to be helpful around the house. She helps me unload the dishwasher and the dryer, clean up her spills, etc. When she helps me, I thank her, sometimes repeatedly. I would also thank an adult in her position, but probably not every time they handed me a dish! She seems to really enjoy it, but she is very motivated to help me already, and I don't want to quash that.

I think it's very cool to thank someone. Unless you think you're overdoing it, don't worry about it, I think? Although counting the plates she hands you is fun too... (1, 2, 3 bowls...1,2 plates...etc).

That's too cute, a little toddler unloading the dishwasher!


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think it is important to tell your children when they are doing a good job. You tell them when you think they are not doing a good job. I think it would be awful to live in an environment where people tell you when you do something they don't like but don't tell you when you do something that they do like. Besides that, to truly cut out all forms of external gratification you would have to cut out facial expressions and body language and I think that sounds to extreme.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
I think it is important to tell your children when they are doing a good job. You tell them when you think they are not doing a good job.

I think the problem with this thread (as has been mentioned) is that it's part of a whole different way of thinking . . .I'm finding it hard to discuss aspects of it in isolation.

But anyway, no, I try not to tell DD when she's not doing a good job . . .this is about not judging, either positively or negatively. I'm not saying I succeed all the time (and it does NOT mean permissive parenting) but it's my goal.


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## mykidsmama (Jun 15, 2003)

Thank you!


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## Jen123 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:

this is about not judging, either positively or negatively. I'm not saying I succeed all the time (and it does NOT mean permissive parenting)
This is what I struggle with. I still see narrow lines between gd and permissive parenting. But that is my punishment side talking. lol

I desire to reinforce when the children feel good about something they've done. With my older children it's become a joke that when they pester me about something they've done I say " do you want me to say 'good job' ? I didn't think you needed me to actual SAY it. It's quite obvious to anyone that you did a very good job" Of course I praised them , but omitted the actual words "good job". I think because I don't overuse it , it really means something to them.

I've never been a fluffy praise kinda mom. My praise has always been direct , to the point and follows after they show pride in their accomplishment. I will continue to use the phrase "good job" since I've never abused it.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
But anyway, no, I try not to tell DD when she's not doing a good job . . .this is about not judging, either positively or negatively. I'm not saying I succeed all the time (and it does NOT mean permissive parenting) but it's my goal.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone would think I was "permissive" in any way - we have fairly high expectations for behavior and her responsibility for her choices (which we do try to provide many of, or have her come up with her own). We don't really have a democratic-style family, and I believe in limits and boundaries. To me, this is a very empathetic way of communicating with each other about problems and solutions and things we observe about each other. It's not like we're not proud of her or things she does - we just try to use words like "I see you picked up your whole room all by yourself" and she is really proud of herself. We do find things to be surprised/amazed about throughout the day, to give positive feedback, usually to something she doesn't notice that WE notice right away. I.e. writing her name, or sharing her muffin, etc.

It's sort of a zen way of communicating I guess, in my mind. No gold stars or rewards for things we expect, and it seems to go with that? I'm sure she is motivated to make us happy (as we want to make her happy as well), but I think this is a function of a happy family, where we're thinking about each others feelings and fairness. Let's face it, I sure don't wanna clean her room after she's trashed it. She picks up her room (because it's expected) but I can still observe that it looks very tidy and I can walk across the floor without toys embedded in my foot. She's happy, I'm happy.

Like I've said, I can't really talk about Kohn other than I read his book about rewards and punishments. Most of my understanding about observations come from the Love and Logic and Faber & Mazlish books, some NVC, and Montessori; so that's where I notice it. I'm not TCS or worrying about what I'm saying and manipulating her - I just find it's a very open way to communicate and will hopefully help her be able to express EXACTLY to us as well what she likes and doesn't like, and why. And vice versa.

I've mostly seen the over-praise in art/toddler classes that she's taken. BLEH! "Your picture is SO PRETTY, what is it?" A different art class please!


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I don't get why it is such a big deal to tell a child they made a nice picture, or did a good job cleaning up, or shared nicely. These are things I just expect but I still tell my daughter she did a nice job and that makes her happy and she continues doing the things I expect her to do. Is this something that you naturally do less of as your child ages? At what age is it bad to praise a child? How exactly can you get the point across that you don't want a child to do something if you give no external motivation? Is there a level of praise and redirection that is acceptable?


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I think this article might describe it a little better than the Kohn one (in a nutshell, that is - I'm sure the book contains more detail). It's very concrete.:

http://www.canadianparents.ca/CPO/Fa...10/592023.html

And here is a researcher's interview. She studied the effects of praise on perceived intelligence levels and internal motivation.

http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/dweck_interview.shtml


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## Jeslynb (Jun 8, 2005)

Perhaps my child is too small for me to appreciate this article (he is 20 months). The only way a child that small can understand the importance of sharing is through some kind of positive reinforcement - that is how you first introduce the concept that giving your things to other people is good vs. bad - an utterly counter-intuitive proposition, if you think about it.

If you don't indicate to your child that sharing is good through praise, it will be some time later in childhood that they can understand the concept of a moral imperitive to be kind to other people. Heck - most adults don't even get it!

There is nothing wrong with your toddler sharing with another child in order to please you - that is how infants and toddlers learn some of the concepts regarding safety and kindness. Perhaps the same is not true for learning to paint or throw a ball, but for the non-physiological development, if you remove the incentive to please the parent, in my view, you are courting disaster.

I agree with the article as it applies to older children, howevever the article did not specify age appropriateness, which I found odd.

On a side note, in response to something mentioned above, I was an honors student at an Ivy school and I certainly did learn the subject matter, even though I was focused on the "external" factor of grades. If anything, striving to achieve the better grades forced me to learn the material in greater depth. Everyone learns differently, of course - look at Albert Einstein - but it's foolish to generalize and state that people in general would learn "better" if they were not focused on pesky things like retention and test performance. I imagine that would vary from individual to individual.


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## alliwenk (Nov 6, 2003)

good links loraeileen...especially the interview.


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

Specifically on the issue of sharing (or really on any "moral" issue), Kohn feels that praise is NOT as effective as simply pointing out the "good" that resulted from the sharing - "Look at how happy Johnny is! Now you both have some yummy apple!" rather than "Good job sharing!" That way, the child develops his own moral system based on observations, rather than just what you say is "good."


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *obiandelismom*
Specifically on the issue of sharing (or really on any "moral" issue), Kohn feels that praise is NOT as effective as simply pointing out the "good" that resulted from the sharing - "Look at how happy Johnny is! Now you both have some yummy apple!" rather than "Good job sharing!" That way, the child develops his own moral system based on observations, rather than just what you say is "good."

Right. And in our family's expectations, we do expect her to notice how her actions effect others. If she says something not so nice, notice how the other child feels. I won't make her say sorry, but I will ask that she notice how the other child feels and reflect on that. If she has an apple, notice how the other child is hungry. We ask her, can you think of anything that will make that child feel better? It eliminates a lot of the resentment at "having" to come up with a solution. And then we observe how the child feels now, and how they both feel. The morality comes from within.

But where did they learn it - I think from modelling first. We model sharing, taking turns, using gentle words, and we say this is what we do in our family. That moral code becomes part of them (hopefully!), albeit over time and developmentally wherever they're at. My parents were total hypocrites about things like saying sorry or lying; so I really feel like my actions speak louder than my words.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

That was a good article. It makes it a lot clearer. I still think that praise has a place in parenting, but it makes sense that you need to make it more specific and try to engage the child in conversation about what they are doing.
I agree with Jeslynb about it being hard to not use praise with a young child. Especially for getting a young child to do something they would not want to do on their own, like sharing, potty training, being gentle. Do those phrases actually work with young children?


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katallen*
That was a good article. It makes it a lot clearer. I still think that praise has a place in parenting, but it makes sense that you need to make it more specific and try to engage the child in conversation about what they are doing.
I agree with Jeslynb about it being hard to not use praise with a young child. Especially for getting a young child to do something they would not want to do on their own, like sharing, potty training, being gentle. Do those phrases actually work with young children?

Right! I agree with that it has a certain kind of place, but specificity helps.

I think young children will want to do these things on their own, when they're developmentally ready and if the groundwork for empathy has been laid through AP parenting (i.e. responding to cries, their happiness and pain, etc). I didn't expect my daughter to share, ever, at two years old, because I'm not sure how developmentally appropriate it is. I was pleasantly surprised when she would share (sometimes) and we talked about "turns" at other times with no ill effect. Now, at five, she really gets it. We did do a lot of observation with her when she was two - i.e. "wow, you're being so gentle with that flower and touching it with a one-finger touch." Potty training was the same - we encouraged it, sure - but didn't praise her for being "good" that she went in the potty - because then conversely what is she when she doesn't go in the potty but on the floor or her pants? Not that a parent would call the kid "bad" but I worry that's what she'd think herself, or feel discouraged.


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## Jeslynb (Jun 8, 2005)

This is an interesting discussion and I think all of the above points are valid and also very well put.

However, I maintain that the desire to do a certain act solely because it pleases the parent is an important part of the development of the human psyche and has it's place in a toddler's social development. I think deliberately limiting that development is risky, but reasonable minds can differ on this point, as I see above.

I believe that later in life, a child can understand other childrens' emotions and see that they are making Sam happy by sharing. But very small toddlers barely understand that other people exist apart from themselves, much less have feelings. It's fine to talk about it, so that they eventually understand, but to assume that an 18 month old will share because it is inherently "good" to share seems unreasonable.

Moreover, I would add that there is no difference - beyond semantics - between saying "Good job sharing - hooray" and "look how happy you made Sam" to an 18 month old. What that child "gets" from either sentence is that you are pleased and that she has done something "good." In other words, you are saying "good job" whether you are saying it or not. Words have meaning at that age mostly by their context, not their syntax. You could literally say "You are a spicy sausage!" and if you said it in a happy tone with a smile, you child would laugh and clap. I am not suggesting that one use words out of context in this manner, but I am pointing out that the article has limited relevance for toddlers and undermines an important part of development - one which works to keep them safe - the desire to please their caregiver.

Again, for older children, I think specific feedback and realistic praise is a wonderful parenting tool.

Time will tell, of course, for all of us.









On a final note, I do not think that AP parenting is an essential part of creating an empathetic human being with a developed moral core, as suggested above. Any kind of attentive, sensitive parenting can result in a happy and healthy child, including, of course, AP parenting. I don't think one type of parenting should be identified as the only "proper" way to go with respect to the issue we are discussing here.

Edited to add: My 21-month old does (sometimes) share - voluntarily - and he claps for himself when he does it without even looking at me. It has been wonderful to see. That is because we made a fuss when he did it many months ago and kissed him or thanked him. We did explain how nice sharing is, and why, but we coupled that with plain old "good sharing" or a simple "thank you." Now, it is a habit and we can continue to work on the deeper meaning as he grows.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jeslynb*
On a final note, I do not think that AP parenting is an essential part of creating an empathetic human being with a developed moral core, as suggested above. Any kind of attentive, sensitive parenting can result in a happy and healthy child, including, of course, AP parenting. I don't think one type of parenting should be identified as the only "proper" way to go with respect to the issue we are discussing here.

No, I didn't mean to imply that, although I can see that it looks like I did. I imagine there are all sorts of sensitive ways to parent. It's what worked for us, that's what I mean to say.

I hear what you're saying about semantics, syntax, etc, and they will see certain actions make a parent happier than others, and that in a strong relationship, each party is bound to want to make each other happy on some level. I just don't want my daughter to try to use the toilet to make me happy or get a star on a chart, I want her to do it for herself and be proud that she's an independent girl. I mean that to me, this is a communication style that works for us in situations of both praise _and_ challenge, where emotions are on the surface and need to be expressed in as concrete, explicit way as possible. It's worked for our family really well, even before Kohn wrote his book.


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## Jeslynb (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraeileen*
No, I didn't mean to imply that, although I can see that it looks like I did. I imagine there are all sorts of sensitive ways to parent. It's what worked for us, that's what I mean to say.

I hear what you're saying about semantics, syntax, etc, and they will see certain actions make a parent happier than others, and that in a strong relationship, each party is bound to want to make each other happy on some level. I just don't want my daughter to try to use the toilet to make me happy or get a star on a chart, I want her to do it for herself and be proud that she's an independent girl. I mean that to me, this is a communication style that works for us in situations of both praise _and_ challenge, where emotions are on the surface and need to be expressed in as concrete, explicit way as possible. It's worked for our family really well, even before Kohn wrote his book.


Thanks for clarifying that in such a nice way.

I think you stated it perfectly - in a loving relationship, each party's actions are tied into pleasing the other, so on some level, your child is using the potty because independance and similar traits are "good." But emphasizing pride in herself, versus making *you* happy sounds like a very healthy thing to do, because it removes the need for a constant "reward." The reward was doing it well. I doubt she would still take pride in it if she knew that on some level it made you unhappy - at least, not at this age. So there's the implicit "good job" rearing it's head.

Then we'll hit the teenage years, when they take pride in anything that makes us *UN*happy. Can't wait for that thread!


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jeslynb*
Then we'll hit the teenage years, when they take pride in anything that makes us *UN*happy. Can't wait for that thread!

:LOL

Although in my experience of working with very uh, "challenging" teens, they're a whole lot more like toddlers than our society wants to admit. Tantrums, emotionally volatile, wanting more independence, ready for a power struggle if an authority figure proposes one, figuring out they're a separate entity in this world, being incredibly silly and brilliant, pushing boundaries but needing limits...but in a 6 foot body with the verbal kung-fu skills to match. Good times, good times.

I worked with teens during the same time my daughter was a toddler, and the discipline strategies seemed to work cross-age, thank god. Less to learn, less stress.


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