# The Case Against Gold Stars



## Shohanee (Dec 16, 2001)

For those of you interested in the similarities of punishment and rewards.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/tcags.htm

"When we reward our children for behaving well, we teach them to ask, "What's in it for me?"


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

First of all I think there is a difference between rewards and bribes.

bribe : if you will stop throwing a fit I will give you a peice of candy.

reward: If we can get in and out of the store every time this month you may pick out a eice of candy.

For some children they really can work to make lasting differnces. For my dd she gets something special everytime she finishes a section in her math book., She hates math but she doesn't whine about it anymore. she can work towards her reward or not. That reward makes it a little bit fun for her. a light at the end of the tunnel. i know what you are think. Math should be its own reward . not. Anyway when there is no natrual motivation for somehting a reward can be a nice thing to bring about cooperation. will my dd math reward make her eventually love math? no. will anything make her eveentually love math? maybe, maybe not, but while we are waiting to see, a slumber party and trip to Mcds thrown into the mix certainly makes it more barable. same with going to the grocery store. It sucks for them. It is a trade off. they reward me with decent behavior and a quick trip I will throw in some treats. They act like possesed little creatures (theres just something about shopping. . . ), no reason for a reward then. I reward myself for sticking with stuff I would rather not stick with (diet, exersize what have you) why shouldn'yt I offer them a little reward every now and then.


----------



## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

Here's my take on it...

1. I don't think EVERYTHING should get a reward. Some things (like say helping with dishes) just need to get done and kids need to help as part of the family community.

2. Sometimes kids should get "rewards" just for fun. Meaning, sometimes we get to go do fun things just because. Not because they are "good" or because they cleaned their room, but just for fun.

I think that if good behavior doesn't _always_ equal a reward, and a reward doesn't _only_ come from good behavior then it keeps the "What's in it for me?" aspect to a minimum.

Of course, this is just my opinion picked up from being a nanny to older kids... not from my own since DD is only 10 months. So I might be way off! LOL


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

well, yeah, if everything requires a reward then you really need to reevaluate your parenting plan :LOL. There are just somethings that even I hate doing and drinking a coke while I do them (dishes







) makes it a lot more tolerable and even somehting to look forward too. I think it is only fair to extend that little bit of joy amidst drugery to our hcildren.

shopping for instance is the bane of Madelines existance. I usually try to wait until her dad can sytay home with her. she doesn't even like to go shopping for clothes for her. sometimes it just must be done and when that haoppens I try to make her misery a little sweeter by stuiking a deal with her. A little reward for making the trip bearable for me. sometimes it is just easier to get through something if you know there is something fun at the end.


----------



## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I agree with all of the posters who realize that saying "rewards are always bad" is too black and white.

Of course, you don't want to reward every little thing. But giving a treat after one has to do some tough stuff if FINE.

It is not a bribe, at least in our house, because there is no option involved.

It is "you have to take this bad tasting medicine, but you can pick out any kind of candy to have afterwords."

Its "sorry you have to trudge along while we look at plumbing supplies, but we will go to Insanely Loud House of Pizza afterwords."

Moreover, it IS good for kids to learn that some things in life bring rewards. Most people don't do the job, because of the immense satisfaction from a job well done ( I mean its great if you have this but let's face it some jobs in society need to be done and they may not be that satisfying.) They get satifaction from a paycheck.


----------



## Shohanee (Dec 16, 2001)

A reward and a bribe is nothing IMO. If you're going to give your child a piece of candy for taking yucky medicine or for behaving "properly" at the store, and wouldn't give it to them otherwise (or withhold it if they don't do what you want them to do)...it's a reward for "proper" behavior, which is also equivalent to bribery. "if you do this, you'll get this" Basically we are manipulating someone else's behavior by dangling a carrot in front of them. I don't mean any disrespect, and believe me, this concept was very challenging to my world view when I first encountered it!









With regard to a job, money in exchange for work is compensation. However, "merit" pay raises, bonus plans and other incentives ARE rewards.

As far as doing things we don't enjoy - it's still a choice even as an adult. I choose to do the dishes because I like having a clean kitchen and clean dishes to eat off of. My choices otherwise would be to not do them and have a dirty kitchen, eat off dirty dishes, buy paper and plastic and throw it all away, hire someone to do it for me...those are just a few. There are few things we "have to" do, other than survival like breathing, eating, sleeping etc. The difference between "have to" and "want to" is acknowledging the choice - of focusing on hating it and in essence bribing ourselves into doing it ~or~ reframing our thought process and recognizing that with a little problem solving we really DO have choices to make in virtually every situation we encounter.

I guess a question to ask yourself is how it feels when YOU are being manipulated, coerced or punished? It's really no different from what our children feel when we do it to them.


----------



## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Shohanee_
*Basically we are manipulating someone else's behavior by dangling a carrot in front of them.*
Well, some might say that everything you do with your children is "manipulating their behaviour". While I agree that using rewards constantly as a means of discipline is a bad idea, I don't think there's anything wrong with a recognition of a child's good behaviour with a treat on the odd occaison. Even if you just recognize it with praise, that praise is "a carrot in front of them" because presumably, you don't praise them when they've done something wrong.

I dunno, I just think it's being a bit too black-and-white. JMHO.


----------



## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

Yep we do not do rewards or bribes. Teaches kids to do things for extrinsic reasons not intrinsic motivation.
Big part of the reason we homeschool is the red pencil and the gold star. I also do not praise for the sake of manipulating behaviors, I think that belittles the child. Thanks for sharing the link.
Mary
mom of ds 14 1/2, ds9, ds6, dd 3 1/2


----------



## Shohanee (Dec 16, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Well, some might say that everything you do with your children is "manipulating their behaviour". While I agree that using rewards constantly as a means of discipline is a bad idea, I don't think there's anything wrong with a recognition of a child's good behaviour with a treat on the odd occaison. Even if you just recognize it with praise, that praise is "a carrot in front of them" because presumably, you don't praise them when they've done something wrong.

I dunno, I just think it's being a bit too black-and-white. JMHO.*
I think there is a big difference between intentionally manipulating someone, and modeling/guiding them as they learn to be human beings.

Recognition of accomplishments or behavior is wonderful, what I question (and what Mr Kohn points out) is HOW we do it. What is our intention? If our intention is to share *our* genuine appreciation and delight in the cooperation of our child, wonderful! I have no issue with that. If it's to modify future behavior by withholding it if they don't do as you wish...well...that is where it becomes more damaging IMO.

Praise IS, in fact, a carrot. As are grades, gold stars, trophies, cookies, stickers etc. Because we DON'T give it to them when they've done something "wrong" is the exact reason that it's a reward. "If you do this, you will get that" "If you don't do this, you won't get that". It's all the same - an extrinsic motivator to get people to do what we want them to do regardless of their own needs at the time.

Enjoying the discussion, even if we disagree!


----------



## emma00 (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:

With regard to a job, money in exchange for work is compensation. However, "merit" pay raises, bonus plans and other incentives ARE rewards.
Why is this a problem? If an employer encourages his/her employee to seek out new business or increase productivity or whatever by rewarding them with a share of the increased profits isn't that a fair recognition of the employee's added efforts on the job? How is this coersive?

I have read Alfie Kohn's theory before and while I think it provides some food for thought I'm not willing to conceed that all rewards = punishment.


----------



## Shohanee (Dec 16, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by emma00_
*Why is this a problem? If an employer encourages his/her employee to seek out new business or increase productivity or whatever by rewarding them with a share of the increased profits isn't that a fair recognition of the employee's added efforts on the job? How is this coersive?

I have read Alfie Kohn's theory before and while I think it provides some food for thought I'm not willing to conceed that all rewards = punishment.*
There are enough intrinsic rewards that come from the work. If you're in a job that you hate, and need incentives in order to perform, well I find that to be sort of unfortunate - for the employer and the employee. All work has good and bad, but overall...if you wouldn't do the work you do if you didn't have to...well it's just something to consider. Someone above commented about money for work as an extrinsic motivator, which is why I responded about compensation.

The rewards I'm talking about are the ones that come from external sources. I garden because I love flowers. It's hard work, but the reward is the pretty flowers blooming in my yard. I find that different than planting flowers I have no interest in because my neighbors do and I want to "look good" and win an award for "nicest garden" in the annual neighborhood meeting. Not a great example, but it's all I can come up with at the moment.

Anyway, I think I'm wearing out my welcome and this topic - so if you have anything you'd like to ask me directly, please pm me!


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

interesting discussion.

how about if we take the scenario of the child, who doesn't want to, going to look at plumbing supplies with mom and dad and then the family goes to the insanely loud house of pizza







. in one view the mom and dad might "reward" the child with the pizza joint, but if viewed another way it might be a compromise worked out so everyone could do something they wanted to. mom and dad could have fun gawking at faucets and jr could have fun at the pizza joint.

for example, there might be a conversation like this before the plumbing foray:

mom and dad might say, "jr, we really need to go look at plumbing supplies. do you mind tagging along?"

jr might reply, "no, i don't wanna go."

mom and dad might say, "well, we really need to get a new faucet because the one we have is leaking. how can we work this out so we can go?"

then jr might say, "let's go to peggy's pizza pie parlor instead."

mom and dad: "how about we go there after we go to mario's plumbing supply?"

jr: "okay."

now, is that still a reward or is that problem solving and compromise and working together and a lot of other good phrases?

seems to me sometimes "rewards" are just parent shorthand for problem solving. i guess it's probably more instructive for the child to show all our work and let him or her participate in the process, but i can see where it might drag out. it's so tempting in reply to "i don't wanna go (whine whine)" to say, "c'mon we'll go to the pizza place afterwards". is that a reward or a compromise? i don't know...

interesting discussion. our dd is just 2.5 and although very verbal we haven't hit too many situations where a reward might be used as incentive. at this point i usually just try to talk about what fun we'll have wherever we're going, etc. i'm sure we'll be faced with tougher situations in the future, though so i'm glad to read different views on handling stuff like this.


----------



## emma00 (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't think you are wearing out your welcome. I find the topic interesting and wouldn't have posted if I didnt.









Quote:

If you're in a job that you hate, and need incentives in order to perform, well I find that to be sort of unfortunate -
My example wasn't that an external incentive was needed in order to perform, but than an external incentive was used to motivate employees to exceed the expected performance. You can still like your job and perform well at it and enjoy the added challenge of earning a bonus or additional commission etc.

I think Beanma brings up some interesting things to consider as well.


----------



## anythingelse (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

mom and dad might say, "jr, we really need to go look at plumbing supplies. do you mind tagging along?"
this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine, parents __asking__when there is no ? to ask, come on if you have to go to the store why ask the child if they want to go or mind the fact they have to go?? That only confuses kids IMHO and sets the atmosphere for a debate because it is presented as if there may possibly be another option or that they are being put upon by having to transition to doing something not in the plan..
I have a friend that reminds her kids to do their daily chores like that and they always answer back okay, they will do them later or no thanks mom I'm busy (myfave







cause this shows how smart they are) She thinks is is a gentle way to parent and does not understand why her older kids get so po'd at her mixed signals.
Here is our house--
"The sink is leaking and we have to go get a plug to fix it now so that the leak does not hurt the floor." My kids would be checking out the sink at this point with me, wanting to figure out who would get first crack at using the power screw driver, and one would be making the list of what to buy. No one would be planning on getting any pizza lol and there would be nothing to 'work out', even my 3 year old 'gets' the idea we -have to- go do something and knows she can bring along a toy to entertain herself at home depot. She has no melt down fit because she understands what is going on.
HTH
Mary


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I have no problem with an occasional reward/bribe.

Ds is usually loving and trusting of us, but he is his own person, and his own person is 7 right now and vulnerable to a sometimes limited understanding of abstracts. His world won't fall apart if he starts thinking only of himself. That is what is so wonderful and fragile about childhood. It's lack of intrinsic dependence for our own survival.

When ds can't see a certain reality, I am fine giving him an articifial reason to behave in a way that still accomodates that reality. This usually happens in situations where my motivation is abstract, and based on a mature understanding of the world that he hasn't experienced. It rarely happens when he can see or relate to my dilemma in a concrete way.


----------



## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

My older dd is all over those gold stars! She gets it about intrinsic motivation. "Yeah, yeah, Mom, do it because it's the right thing to do, do it because it feels good to help out, it's better to give than receive. . .







" "But hey, *I* have a good idea! How about I earn ten gold stars, then I can _________ !" "Five would be good, honey" "No, no, Mom it has to be ten. I should always be working harder and trying to do better and I earned five last time." She does things for both reasons. Get along with Gramma so we can homeschool. (This also earns gold stars!) She can do that. Pick all the black raspberries and save them all, instead of eating them herself, so she can freeze them and bake Gramma a pie in three months for her birthday, because Gramma once told her raspberries are her all time favorite fruit. She gets that, too.

I do my job, because, mostly, I love it. Do it for more hours than I have to to make enough money to get by? Pay me double time!

I agree that it is too black and white to say rewards are always bad. I think that like most things, it's how you use them and not overusing them that is important. Refraining from ever using rewards and only allowing for intrinsic motivation really underestimates my dd's abilities and saavy.


----------



## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I just want to make my point clear.

You get candy when you take the yucky medicine because you HAD to do something bad.

You can't say" Well, I don't want the medicine so I will forgo the candy."

The candy is NOT a bribe. It is just a way of saying to your child "Hey I know its a bummer to have to take medicine, I'd like for you to get something nice at the same time."

The same with the trip to the Pizza place after a day of boring errands. I don't ask "if" they will come. They know they HAVE to come. But at the same time, I am saying "I recognize that this is not fun for you, I'd like to do something nice for you after." They don't have to behave a certain way on the errands. If the b**ch and moan, I might tell them I don't like the way they are acting, but I don't "take away" the planned pizza.


----------



## SRHS (Jan 9, 2003)

WOW!! This is interesting... I just finished reading his book Gold sTars, A's, standardized tests and the education we all deserve...I see his point and everyone else's here. Here are some things that have come to mind...

Some of this seem like semantics and YES motivation on the parent's part (am I bribing or rewarding, Am I coercing or making a silver lining in this cloud I brought over my child's head?)

Reward vs compensation....If this were a socialist society I'd say compensation, I'm not sure with our society. Speaking of society...unless you all are living in intentional communities...there are rewards and consequences in our society...intrinsic and extrinisic. How do you raise your children without rewards and without consequences at home and then how do they react to the big world out there?

So, what do y'all think?

susan


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

don't have long to type, so i can't respond to everyone's thoughtful comments although i am enjoying reading them so keep them coming!

vanna's mom, on my plumbing and pizza example, i agree, you shouldn't ask if there isn't a choice, so we could change that to instead of a leaky faucet mom and dad just wanna go look at plumbing stuff 'cause they're thinking of re-doing the bathroom. it _is_ an option for jr not to go. he could stay home with one parent while the other goes, BUT both would _enjoy_ going together to dream about new faucets. then i think the rest of my scenario could stick.

my gut reaction w/o having read the essay linked in the OP







, is it's probably like most other grey areas in parenting and some things work for some kids and some things don't. we, as parents, can make rewards a crutch if we use them too much and then the child _expects_ a reward for everything little thing he or she does, but if the child herself is coming up with the gold star idea like sofiamomma's dd, then i'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. it sounds like she gets it and it works for her.

gotta run


----------



## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I think,(not that you asked














like EVERYTHING in this world, black and white just doesn't happen.

I think it is fair to reward in some situations. The example with Math makes a lot of sense. The child hates math, but to have a goal (the reward) is a great incentive to do the work. As long as everyone understands that that is what it is. The child KNOWS they have to work through the math. That's a requirment. The parents are working on a way to make this a little more fun. So a reward is a reasonable goal to set. Is it bribery? No, because the child has to do the work one way or another. The reward system is a way to make it more fun.

Wouldn't it be great if the world did have absolutes? Nah...then life would be too easy!


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:

As far as doing things we don't enjoy - it's still a choice even as an adult. I choose to do the dishes because I like having a clean kitchen and clean dishes to eat off of. My choices otherwise would be to not do them and have a dirty kitchen, eat off dirty dishes, buy paper and plastic and throw it all away, hire someone to do it for me...those are just a few.
It is not a choice to me to live in a clean home and not buy paper and plastic - it is a responsibility (to myself, my family, and the environment). Just like it is not a choice to me to change my dd's dirty diapers. It is my responsibility. As an adult, I have come to learn that there are things that we need to do that we don't necessarily want to do but that is what being a responsible person means.

I reward my dd for behavior when she is not expecting it. And I instill in her a sense of pride in herself, not from me. When she asks me "are you proud of me?" my first response is always "are you proud of yourself?".

As with anything else in parenting/life, the extremes are always(in MY opinion) a bad place to be. Constant gold stars are a bad idea. No gold stars is a bad idea. Balance, balance, balance.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Lovebeads I agree with you. My lack of appreciation for non coercion theories is the simplification of our motivation as always "need or want". And I maintain (like you) that responsibilities fall in a category that is neither clearly need or want.

Dismissing all drugery as an example of want on the grounds that "well, you wanted to do it or else you would pay the price for not doing it" is short sighted. If you don't properly care for your kids, you will all pay the price. That kind of understanding breeds a sense of responsibility that exists outside your own personal agenda of needs and wants.


----------



## SRHS (Jan 9, 2003)

Celestial:

As a homeschooler...not an uschooler....how do kids learn math and around what age do they realize they need that information? How do you provide them with a need for that information?

I guess this is off topic, but I love to know how kids figure this out on their own...I'm much too paranoid to trust ds to want this info for himself...

Thanks, Susan


----------



## emma00 (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:

It is not a choice to me to live in a clean home and not buy paper and plastic - it is a responsibility (to myself, my family, and the environment). Just like it is not a choice to me to change my dd's dirty diapers. It is my responsibility. As an adult, I have come to learn that there are things that we need to do that we don't necessarily want to do but that is what being a responsible person means.
From my understanding of Alfie Kohn's principles, I think that this type of inner discipline is the end goal of raising your child w/o rewards or punishments. He would argue that a child who is raised with an expectation of an external reward for every achievement / unpleasant job etc. doesn't learn a sense of inner discipline.

I think most parents would like to instill a sense of inner discipline and responsibility in their children. While I agree that an excessive use of rewards *could* hamper a child's inner discipline, I'm not convinced that an occasional reward is going to be damaging in the large scheme of life.

Many things go into developing discipline. Discipline comes from doing - i.e. to excersize everyday you need to get up each morning and do it. To start from never exercising to excercising everyday it might be helpful to have a little 'reward' to kick start the process. Once the habit is instilled the reward becomes being fit, having more energy etc. Through inner discipline the person maintains the goal of exercising everyday. Perhaps the end goal of being fit would never have been achieved if they hadn't allowed themselves some 'external' motivators along the way.

Gotta go - there is more I want to say so I'll be back if I can, but I'm off on holidays so I may not get the chance.


----------



## SRHS (Jan 9, 2003)

I'm curious...Have any of you read anything about the nine different temperaments? And how does this work-in practice, not theory-with a "spirited child" or a difficult child...or ADHD child, or anyother label or phrase you want to add....I have read the books, and agree with the theory...however putting it into action just hasn't helped my ds, but rather made things worse....in fact he said he wants to go back to the "clips" because he knew exactly what the consequences would be...its almost as if he is more secure with more rigid structure and more visible results (we have a clothes hangar and he earns clips and loses clips for following/not following certain rules---a lot like gold stars and other reward systems....at 5 clips he can go play with friends--unstructured, at 7 he can watch tv, at 10 he can go to the store to spend his allowance....) I was just surprised that he actually asked to go back to the more rigid and visible structure, however after reading Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, William Pollack, and Howard Glasser....he fits right in with their theories....so was just wondering, if any of you have actually had success iwth this in practice with children and what sort of temperament does the child have?

thanks, Susan


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

My daughter was definitely in the "spirited" category until she was about seven. I parented her without rewards or punishments, and continue ot do so.

I also worked as a special education teacher, and my specialty was emotional/behavioral disabilities (I had a self-contained class). I did use some behavior mod stuff with my kids (rewards and a structured level system). At the beginning of the school year, I worked it pretty hard, but my goal was to transition the kids away from that stuff, and get them to where they saw themselves as competent parts of a functioning unit and didn't need levels and points. I generally did pretty well with that goal, by the end of a school year. OTOH, this was a special situation - I needed a tool that would enable me to get a toehold for the short term even though I think the tool itself is harmful - in the situation, I couldn't figure out any other way to short circuit the acting-out long enough to begin to build relationships.

These were kids (I had 8 for most of the year) who all had psychiatric labels, many of whom had been institutionalized, most of whom became violent on a daily basis when I got them (and they were 7-11 years old). I'm hoping folks here don't have kids who have been through what my kids had been through...

As far as math and radical unschooling goes, Rain has picked up a good bit of useful math, especially related to money and mentally adding and subtracting it. She dabbled a bit in some other things when she found them interesting, but isn't at "grade level" by any reckoning. Unschooling means being okay with that. Her writing was well below "grade level" for years, but over the past year or so she's been doing a lot more writing (emails, letters, things she and friends made up, poems, contracts) and her writing skills now seem to be at pretty much the same place as other 10 year olds...

Dar
Dar


----------



## SRHS (Jan 9, 2003)

Dar:

thanks for the great info...I am so torn as to how to deal with my spirited child....I like the Mary Sheedy Kurcinka approach, but the kid really prefers to have that visible representation....so maybe we can use it to transition to more internal and intrinsic controls and esteem. Thanks again..Susan


----------



## SRHS (Jan 9, 2003)

Dar...thanks too for the input on the unschooling....I say to heck with grade level...each kid is an individual and learns at a different pace...even in a school system.

susan


----------



## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

I think all of this has been said, so I am really just chiming in here.
I do not believe in asking children for permission to do something that is necessary. But, if they have to do something not-fun, then I think it's fine to put some incentives there (bribes, rewards, whatever you call it).
Example: We go to the grocery store once a week and my dd (will be 3 in Sept.) has to sit in the cart for an hour to an hour and a half. So, we have several incentives- we get samples, or if there are no samples out we get a snack (yeah I open a box of crackers of whatever), she gets to look for the train that goes around the ceiling near the check-outs, and I "dangle the carrot" by telling her if she behaves (I explain "behave" in more detail), then she can ride the horse that costs a quarter on the way out. The only thing that I use as a motivator for good behavior by telling her "If you behave, then I will..." is the horse. The rest of it is just things she thinks come with going to that particular grocery store (snacks and train).
Now, we sometimes go to a grocery store with no train or horse, and she gets samples, but fully understands that that is all she gets and has no problems with it.
I don't know if this is "right". I do know that she enjoys grocery shopping. And if she says "i don't wanna go" then I say "too bad" (much nicer of course!)
I don't use bribes everytime we go in a store- the grocery store is it, or if we have to go on a long shopping trip, I might give her something to look forward to, but not usually hinge it on how she behaves.
I think it is important to teach kids to look forward to things, even things we don't like to do. Sometimes a reward (Hinged on behavior) works to accomplish this, but I really like showing them the joy in the task itself, and giving a few fun perks to make them have a more positive attitude about it (like they get to ride the ride at the mall, along with helping mommy pick out clothes).
Also, you could save certain special things that they get to do only when shopping, for instance, like tell stories about when you and/or they were younger, or something else that makes it special and adds some bonding time with it.
My 2 cents!
Sara


----------

