# Mothers of Daughters and Pornography



## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Do you feel that your views reguarding women and sexuality have changed now that you've become a mother of a daughter (or son, for that matter)?


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

No not at all, especially in regards to pornography. It has only emboldened my stance.

I have two daughters and it truly has only solidified my feelings and viewpoints.

Deep down in the pit of my stomach I knew from a very early age how I felt about it.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Nope, I still feel the same about it. I have one daughter and one son.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

No, my views haven't changed.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Since you asked about sons too....

It hasn't changed my views, but solidified them. Looking at them and realizing they're growing up to be men someday, my views on sexuality (and the treatment of women) have only gotten stronger.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Porcelain Interior said:


> No not at all, especially in regards to pornography. It has only emboldened my stance.
> 
> I have two daughters and it truly has only solidified my feelings and viewpoints.
> 
> ...


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

MaterPrimaePuellae said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior*
> ...


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
No not at all, especially in regards to pornography. It has only emboldened my stance.

I have two daughters and it truly has only solidified my feelings and viewpoints.

Deep down in the pit of my stomach I knew from a very early age how I felt about it.

YES, same here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom* 
Since you asked about sons too....

It hasn't changed my views, but solidified them. Looking at them and realizing they're growing up to be men someday, my views on sexuality (and the treatment of women) have only gotten stronger.

Ditto.

I am very open with my sons about the treatment of women, why it's wrong, etc. They are 15, 13, & 9. The 9yo, not so much yet, but the teens & I talk about this.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I had the same feelings as a child. I don't have daughters, but it is equally important to me to impart awareness into my sons of gender inequity and sexism. They're little though, and I have no clue how to really go about it. I'm still loathe to discuss the "bad" aspects of the world with them. My views have not changed. Until now, they've probably become less on my mind b/c I'm so preoccupied with parenting.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo (Dec 7, 2008)

No, didn't change anything. Well, maybe I'm actually even _less_ inhibited than before kids, but that's probably just because I'm older.


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## angelamariebee (Jun 20, 2008)

My views have changed since having DD but not because of. They've changed because I've done a bit more reading on the subject than before she was born. I have a less popular view on the issue, heh.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

MaterPrimaePuellae said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior*
> ...


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

No, it hasn't changed my position and I have 2 dds.

I don't like it. But I firmly believe in freedom of speech, so if that's what consenting adults want to manufacture or consume, that's up to them.


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

Nope, hasn't changed. I still feel that it's primarily a freedom of speech and choice issue, and is fine (even healthy) for consenting _adults_ to enjoy - both male and female. Not all porn is created equal - there is undoubtedly misogynistic material out there, and it's worth discussing, though such a discussion is probably beyond the scope of this conversation. But you can't paint it all with the same brush.

Of course I will do everything I can to protect my daughter from material that's inappropriate to her age, and hope to help her develop a healthy body image and view of sexuality - and to that end, I am _MUCH_ more concerned about her exposure to Barbie, Bratz and Disney princesses, and what they say about standards of beauty and gender roles, than I am about porn.

If she grows up secure about her body and has healthy self esteem, I have no worries about the existence of porn. If she chooses to explore it when she's of age, it'll be none of my business - I just hope my job is well done re: self-worth.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Yes.

Before I had children, I had some pretty black and white views on things. I also thought I knew with certainty right from wrong.

Since the birth of my child, I realize more and more that things aren't black and white, and that I don't really know what's right or what's wrong, and that things I thought were so terrible are really okay, just part of being human. I also realized that people are born with good intentions and good spirits, and a huge variety of behaviors is something to celebrate, not condemn.

I have become more accepting, more flexible, more tolerant of the large variety of values that make up humanity; less judgemental, less certain I know what is right for everyone, and more humble.


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

^^ Great post.


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

Not much. Porn has it's place for consenting adults. That has nothing to do with my being a parent or not.


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## sarahope (Feb 5, 2009)

I don't have daughters yet, but dealing with the hypersexual media and porn culture is one of the reasons I'm terrified - terrified that if I do have daughters some day, that I won't know how to teach them how to be resilient in the face of such toxicity.

I too believe in free speech, but in so doing I acknowledge that some speech is destructive and causes damage. Society pays a price and women especially pay a price when it comes to porn.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't think it exists in a vacuum and I think as it is, it has a whole lot to do with perpetuating sexism and objectification of women. And this has everything to how we raise our daughters and sons b/c they live in this society. I don't see why people had to come in defending porn.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahope* 
I don't have daughters yet, but dealing with the hypersexual media and porn culture is one of the reasons I'm terrified - terrified that if I do have daughters some day, that I won't know how to teach them how to be resilient in the face of such toxicity.

I too believe in free speech, but in so doing I acknowledge that some speech is destructive and causes damage. Society pays a price and women especially pay a price when it comes to porn.

Great post and good point about free speech. Having a daughter (and son) has solidified my viewpoints.


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## filiadeluna (Oct 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Yes.

Before I had children, I had some pretty black and white views on things. I also thought I knew with certainty right from wrong.

Since the birth of my child, I realize more and more that things aren't black and white, and that I don't really know what's right or what's wrong, and that things I thought were so terrible are really okay, just part of being human. I also realized that people are born with good intentions and good spirits, and a huge variety of behaviors is something to celebrate, not condemn.

I have become more accepting, more flexible, more tolerant of the large variety of values that make up humanity; less judgemental, less certain I know what is right for everyone, and more humble.

ITA. What an amazing perspective (and way with words) you have! I personally used to be disgusted by porn. I am not particularly fond of it now, but I really don't care much one way or the other. If my daughter wants to watch it when she is a legal adult, that's her decision. I would feel that way with a son, so why should I treat my daughter any differently (as though I have to protect her *more* than I would a son)? That's more sexist than the videos are!


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

No. I didn't have a problem with it before and I don't have a problem with it now.

Of course there are aspects of the business that are really, really bad for women, and there are things produced that make me ill...but there are deviants in any society and if they weren't making porn they'd be doing something equally distasteful. In some ways, at least this is out in the open. I do think these industries prey on women who have already been victimized which is really, really unfortunate and I do wish for a day when that fact is less true and fewer (no) women are victimized in the first place.

I personallly think in that kind of world, there'd still be a place for porn. But it wouldn't be of the variety that's vastly popular now.


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## spicyrock (Apr 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
Nope, hasn't changed. I still feel that it's primarily a freedom of speech and choice issue, and is fine (even healthy) for consenting _adults_ to enjoy - both male and female. Not all porn is created equal - there is undoubtedly misogynistic material out there, and it's worth discussing, though such a discussion is probably beyond the scope of this conversation. But you can't paint it all with the same brush.

Of course I will do everything I can to protect my daughter from material that's inappropriate to her age, and hope to help her develop a healthy body image and view of sexuality - and to that end, I am _MUCH_ more concerned about her exposure to Barbie, Bratz and Disney princesses, and what they say about standards of beauty and gender roles, than I am about porn.

If she grows up secure about her body and has healthy self esteem, I have no worries about the existence of porn. If she chooses to explore it when she's of age, it'll be none of my business - I just hope my job is well done re: self-worth.

RoseD, i couldn't have said it better, myself. You articulate my feelings exactly.


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## AmieV (Mar 31, 2005)

I wanted to add, certainly I'm concerned about my daughters growing up in a culture that objectifies women. But I think the porn produced is a side effect of that culture, not the root cause. Like someone else said, the groundwork for healthy body image and self esteem is set far before my girls will ever be exposed to porn. There are things that concern me about interfering with that groundwork, but I hope it will be in place and they can make their own decisions about porn by the time it gets to that.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

My views have not changed. Matured, perhaps, realized that hardly anything is black and white, yes, but overall I still feel the same way about feminine sexuality and pornography as I did before I had children. If anything, my mind is more open now and more understanding. Having daughters, at least for me, put things in perspective.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmieV* 
No. I didn't have a problem with it before and I don't have a problem with it now.

That's me completely.


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## emmalizz (Apr 14, 2009)

.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
oh this is just great. <snip>
I don't see why people had to come in defending porn.

Well, she didn't ask if people were *against* porn now that they had children, she asked if your views had *changed* since you have had children. I don't see why all views can't be expressed on the topic.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmieV* 
No. I didn't have a problem with it before and I don't have a problem with it now.

Of course there are aspects of the business that are really, really bad for women, and there are things produced that make me ill...but there are deviants in any society and if they weren't making porn they'd be doing something equally distasteful. In some ways, at least this is out in the open. I do think these industries prey on women who have already been victimized which is really, really unfortunate and I do wish for a day when that fact is less true and fewer (no) women are victimized in the first place.

I personallly think in that kind of world, there'd still be a place for porn. But it wouldn't be of the variety that's vastly popular now.









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AmieV* 
I wanted to add, certainly I'm concerned about my daughters growing up in a culture that objectifies women. But I think the porn produced is a side effect of that culture, not the root cause. Like someone else said, the groundwork for healthy body image and self esteem is set far before my girls will ever be exposed to porn. There are things that concern me about interfering with that groundwork, but I hope it will be in place and they can make their own decisions about porn by the time it gets to that.


Double







:

For the record, I said my views haven't changed, above. I didn't mind it before, and I don't mind it now...though I do need to clarify that I don't mind SOME of it. As said above, I realize there are some pretty major issues with the industry, but I do not think that all pornography is inherently evil or wrong - I am a fan of the 'amateur'/consensual kind, but not of other kinds. Things like those 'girls gone wild' videos, they make me sick. But truly consenting adults, willingly recording and/or watching other truly consenting adults? Doesn't bother me a bit (in fact, can be quite the opposite







: ). And while those may not be the majority of pornography, they do exist, and I cannot lump them in with the other kinds that are problematic. Pornography has existed for a long, long time - it's the recent (past several decades)industry trends that disturb me, not necessarily porn itself. And that view has not changed since I had kids.









I think the chances of my children being exposed to porn before they are teens is pretty slim; the chances of them being exposed to technically non-pornographc but still sexual images and stereotypes and expectations that can subtly work their way into my kids minds BEFORE they are teens is GREAT, and *THAT'S* where my work comes in in teaching my daughter to value herself, and my son to value women.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

No. Having kids only makes me more AFRAID of it. My views on porn were changed when some close friends of ours almost divorced over it (his strong addiction was the root cause) and after dealing with it in my own marriage. The availability of porn is what scares me as far as my kids go. I wish it wasn't so readily available on the internet.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

My views have not changed.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

No, I had no problem with it before, none now.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

_Well, she didn't ask if people were *against* porn now that they had children, she asked if your views had *changed* since you have had children. I don't see why all views can't be expressed on the topic._

They can be (as the above pp did perfectly respectfully I think) but we don't need people arguing regarding porn, which asserting it as a free speech issue, between consenting adults, blahblahblahweknowthosearguments, is essentially doing.


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
_Well, she didn't ask if people were *against* porn now that they had children, she asked if your views had *changed* since you have had children. I don't see why all views can't be expressed on the topic._

They can be (as the above pp did perfectly respectfully I think) but we don't need people arguing regarding porn, which asserting it as a free speech issue, between consenting adults, blahblahblahweknowthosearguments, is essentially doing.

Ok, so we're allowed to have a viewpoint other than your own, but only those who agree with you can go on to elaborate on those views? Gotcha.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

No my feelings haven't changed since I've became a mother. I have always felt porn was degrading and I still feel that way. I don't look down on those who watch, to each their own.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
_Well, she didn't ask if people were *against* porn now that they had children, she asked if your views had *changed* since you have had children. I don't see why all views can't be expressed on the topic._

They can be (as the above pp did perfectly respectfully I think) but we don't need people arguing regarding porn, which asserting it as a free speech issue, between consenting adults, blahblahblahweknowthosearguments, is essentially doing.

Well, may to be dismissive of other points of view there.

To answer the OP, as I have gotten older, I have become less comfortable with porn, though I still wouldn't want to see it banned or anything. I think if we were in a perfect world where women weren't victimized, I would be completely fine with it.

My views have actually shifted a lot more in regards to more open media, though. I've become a lot more aware of messages transmitted in things like advertising and pop cuture in general. I think I've been affected a lot more in my life by that than by watching porn.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i had no problem before & have no problems with it now and i have 2 daughters.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
Ok, so we're allowed to have a viewpoint other than your own, but only those who agree with you can go on to elaborate on those views? Gotcha.

No, and I don't appreciate your condescension or eclipse's. I don't agree with arguing the porn point, which I believe was done in a few posts in a thread not for that. I didn't say that viewpoint couldn't be expressed or elaborated on, but I think arguing it is different (I found BC's thought provoking). But you're just going to be dismissive of me, so I'm done here.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
No, and I don't appreciate your condescension or eclipse's. I don't agree with arguing the porn point, which I believe was done in a few posts in a thread not for that. I didn't say that viewpoint couldn't be expressed. But you're just going to be dismissive of me, so I'm done here.

I have no idea about any other thread. In this thread, though, a question was asked and I certainly think people should be able to explain why they feel the way they do. I'm not sure what your problem is with people doing that. And when you characterize someone's opionion as "blahblahblah," you should expect that people won't take it well.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

If only women's concerns over porn weren't dismissed in any conversation I've ever seen it come up in, I would perhaps have the capacity to be more patient with it. I did not object to every post in this thread that had no problem with it.


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## KnittingTigers (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
If only women's concerns over porn weren't dismissed in any conversation I've ever seen it come up in, I would perhaps have the capacity to be more patient with it. I did not object to every post in this thread that had no problem with it.

I think that this is a very touchy issue, and people on both sides have strong opinions. This is, obviously, one of the signs of a healthy community in which hard topics can be debated. You, and anyone else, certainly has the right to feel concern over porn. In fact, most of the posts in this thread, particularly in the beginning, expressed just that.

I do think it's dangerous though to try and say that we don't have the need to talk about porn as a free speech issue, which is, I think, what the blahblahblah post was saying. There has actually been a long history in the U.S. of trying to ban pornography in various forms. How can we engage with that debate without acknowledging how our positions as parents has changed- or not changed- our views?

I also think it's dangerous to assume that porn is something that women only interact with as victims. I mean, men aren't the only people who watch and enjoy porn, you know? Many women, myself included, enjoy porn, and sometimes watch it. To say that porn is always disgusting implies that there is something wrong or bad about the sexuality and identity of those who enjoy it.

So, to the OP, no, my views on porn haven't changed, as the mother of a daughter. As RoseD said, I'm far more concerned about Barbie and company. Honestly I think that for me, having a son might actually make things more complicated. As a woman who sometimes enjoys, and is not threatened by, porn, I understand how a woman (as my daughter will someday be) could have a healthy relationship with it. It would probably be more challenging for me to know that a son was interested in it, since I'd have less personal frame of reference for understanding how he was relating to it.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

Hazelnut, I read through this entire thread and nowhere, NOWHERE, did I see women's concerns dismissed. What I did see was a concern about the First Amendment. Being concerned about the First Amendment does not automatically mean that one dismisses women's concerns. However, as one who has followed the issue of pornography for a very long time, the argument does usually fall into those two camps (generally speaking with exceptions of course): 1) pornography by definition degrades women or 2) pornography is a form of free speech. The people in the porn-degrades-women camp are usually outraged that porn is considered a free speech issue and not an issue of women's rights and safety. To them, porn exploits women's sexuality and is an example of the rampant sexism in our society. The people in the porn-is-a-form-of-free-speech camp believe that consenting adults have a right to view porn if they want. They often suspect that the anti-porn people are really anti-sex people and they don't believe that pornography is automatically exploitative. The argument between these two camps can be extremely heated: one side accuses the other of hating women and one side accuses the other of trying to control peoples' thoughts and actions.

To answer the OP's question, my view hasn't changed since I became a parent.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

My views have intensified, but not fundamentally changed.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
If only women's concerns over porn weren't dismissed in any conversation I've ever seen it come up in, I would perhaps have the capacity to be more patient with it. I did not object to every post in this thread that had no problem with it.

Here's the thing... we all do what best for us in our lives. We all make our own choices and decisions regarding adult behavior and how to hide /or handle it around the children.

There are moms on MDC who smoke pot. Who did so during pregnancy or labor or even just occassionally around the house.

I am horrified. I don't do drugs. Especially not those considered mood altering and/or illegal.

I don't ever want my kids to do drugs.

I do want my kids to see lots of full nudity someday with a loving partner. I hope they are happy and fulfilled in the bedroom part of their lives.

My hubby and I look at porn once in awhile or read the sexy stories online and then we take that sexual energy back to our bedroom. No harm, no foul. The stuff we look at is tasteful and not involving children, animals or s & m.

So no, I never understand how women say "porn ruined my marriage" or "all porn is garbage". As a happily married woman of 22 years to the same loving man... this is just not my issue.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

I started out an active member of Feminists for Free Expression. Somewhere along the way I 180-ed on that one, on the realization that pornography _consumers_ have absolutely no ability to separate exploitive materials from non-exploitive materials -- that it borders on the impossible to know what was going on on the other side of the camera, or in the minds of those involved, and that I didn't care to actively support the right of that particular economy any more than I did others with an easy and easily hidden ability to cause harm to those involved. (ETA: Linda Marchiano's claims about what was going on during the course of her own porn career really affected my view -- that her story was both plausible and totally undetectable to the viewer really made me re-examine the possibilities when looking at by-all-outward-appearances consensual sex-for-profit. )

Having since had children ... I would say that intensified my discomfort not only with the obscuring nature of the industry but also with how unrestricted access is to extreme or outright illegal materials regarding which I don't want specific knowledge in my own brain, let alone in the minds of my children.

So I've definitely been going more "prude" on the subject on my own over the years, but my opposition took on a public access element once kids were involved ... my son included, not just my daughter.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I've become more liberal since I had children (though I was already very liberal before). I work with porn and since becoming a mom, I've also posed for it. I would not object to my daughter (or son) doing the same some day, and I certainly wouldn't object to them looking at the stuff!


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Yes.

I could "handle" porn before being a mother. Now I'm disgusted.

I used to frequent the female strip clubs pre-baby as well (not the same as porn, along the same lines). We used to party hard every weekend with naked ladies dancing around and on us pre-baby. I've been there one time since being a mother. All I could do was look around and see those women as _somebody's daughter_. I felt really sad. I'll never go back.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 
We used to party hard every weekend with naked ladies dancing around and on us pre-baby. I've been there one time since being a mother. All I could do was look around and see those women as _somebody's daughter_. I felt really sad. I'll never go back.

See, now even though I don't have problems with all porn, this does make me sad, too. I can't quite pinpoint where my line is, where my "okay/not okay" is, but this is in the not okay realm to me, personally, and always has been. I'm fascinated and trying to figure out where my line is....not that it's pertinent to this thread, but anyway. Interesting.


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
See, now even though I don't have problems with all porn, *this does make me sad*, too. I can't quite pinpoint where my line is, where my "okay/not okay" is, but this is in the not okay realm to me, personally, and always has been.

Can you clarify what you man? What exactly is the 'this' that makes you sad? The strip club or the "this is someone's daughter" thing?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I don't have any problem with adults watching most normal run of the mill porn. It's none of my business and really, I just don't care. And what other adults want to get together and do in front of a camera is none of my busness either...except:

Quote:

Of course there are aspects of the business that are really, really bad for women, and there are things produced that make me ill...(snip) In some ways, at least this is out in the open. I do think these industries prey on women who have already been victimized which is really, really unfortunate and I do wish for a day when that fact is less true and fewer (no) women are victimized in the first place.
I don't think emotionally healthy women end up in the porn industry. Of the small handfull of women I know who have ended up stripping or in the fringes of porn, 100% of them have a past with more than a little sexual abuse and a pretty significant percentage has drug problems. When I see porn, mostly I wonder what happened to land those women in that industry.


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## not now (Mar 12, 2007)

No problem with porn then, no problem with it now. If he wants to watch it when he's older so be it. I hope by that time that I had instilled a deep respect for women (or if I have a girl a deep respect for themselves). I see nothing wrong with plain jane porn in moderation. It can be a turn on for both partners.

As for exploitation/degradation of women: Some porn does that. I'm well aware of that. I'm also aware that there are women like Jenna Jameson and Terra Patrick who love what they do, love the lifestyle, are very well paid for what they do and, in the case of Jenna, run their own empire based on what they do. No, I don't think they are getting taken advantage of.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I was conservative Christian before having my girls, and totally bought into the whole idea of pornography as an addiction, and believed what I was taught, that men who look at pornography, even "soft" pornography, would ultimately be dissatidfied with that and with "normal" sex, and would crave more abusive sex, become pedophiles, and so on.

I even helped with a political endeavor for an anti-porn organization: We stood in front of an an adult strip club, handing out cookies and tracts to men who went in. Which caused many of the men to just drive by and not go in. The idea being that we were going to shut the place down. Then I learned it had already been scheduled to shut down, or they were changing location or something, and that this anti-porn organization kept tabs on changes like this, so they could send women to stand out there, and make it look like they were really accomplishing something, and get more financial support for their "work."

After that I never wanted to align myself with the anti-pornography movement, though I still didn't like pornography. And it's just never been a thing of interest, for either me or dh.

However, becoming a mom has led me to make a major theological shift. I am now very liberal, no longer believe in condemnation for others who believe differently, and therefore, as BellinghamCrunchie shared, I no longer see it as such a black-and-white issue. Especially after having some people act like public breastfeeding was "pornographic." It's just scary when certain "authorities" set themselves up as judge and determine, for everyone else, which forms of expression are acceptable and which ones aren't.

I do think all participants need to be consenting adults, and I haven't seen anyone here that didn't think that.

By the way, that early teaching about "male sexual addictions" came back to bite me in the butt when one friend tried to tell me that I shouldn't breastfeed in the church sanctuary, because what if a man with sexual addictions came in off the street, and was so mesmerized -- not by the sight of my breast since he wouldn't see anything, but by the mere knowledge that there was a mouth sucking on a breast -- what if this took all his attention and he missed his chance to hear the gospel???

Those eating babies -- they're just sucking up the souls of those poor sex-addicted men: How could we nursing mamas be so uncaring!??? -- So, yeah, I prefer freedom for everyone, though of course we need to protect our kids (not from breastfeeding -- but from anything that might be harmful to a child).


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Those eating babies -- they're just sucking up the souls of those poor sex-addicted men: How could we nursing mamas be so uncaring!??? -- So, yeah, I prefer freedom for everyone, though of course we need to protect our kids (not from breastfeeding -- but from anything that might be harmful to a child).

This made me laugh very hard. I grew up in a church that sounds just like that.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I don't think emotionally healthy women end up in the porn industry. Of the small handfull of women I know who have ended up stripping or in the fringes of porn, 100% of them have a past with more than a little sexual abuse and a pretty significant percentage has drug problems. When I see porn, mostly I wonder what happened to land those women in that industry.

That's a pretty big blanket statement. As I said earlier, I work with porn, and have posed myself . . . and none of the women I've met along the way were abused or addicted (including myself . . . I do sex work in several capacities because the money is good, I can work from home, and I LIKE it).

Sure, some women get into it for the wrong reasons, but it's not a wholly exploitative industry.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Sure, some women get into it for the wrong reasons, but it's not a wholly exploitative industry.

Also, as a previous poster pointed out... as a consumer it is difficult to know if there anything exploitative involved in the making of images like this.

Is my t-shirt from Target made by child laborers in some far away place? Maybe and maybe not.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
ETA, it does add a new dimension to think of my 2 yo daughter having to deal with this some day. and I am _very_ happy to have a daughter, because i don't think I would deal with this issue well with a son.

I'm curious to know why you think you would not deal with this issue well with a son.

Mothers of sons have a wonderful opportunity to teach their boys that they are expected to treat all humans with respect and dignity, including girls and women. It's not all about teaching our daughters. The boys have a responsibility, too.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Norasmomma* 
Not much. Porn has it's place for consenting adults. That has nothing to do with my being a parent or not.

And I'll add that I'm fine with porn. Not all of it I find appealing to me, though.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
I'm curious to know why you think you would not deal with this issue well with a son.

Mothers of sons have a wonderful opportunity to teach their boys that they are expected to treat all humans with respect and dignity, including girls and women. It's not all about teaching our daughters. *The boys have a responsibility, too*.

Bolding mine. YES, they do, and I hope I can teach my sons how and WHY they are responsible too. Not all boys grow up to be sex-obsessed pigs, and I sure hope mine don't!


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I don't think emotionally healthy women end up in the porn industry. Of the small handfull of women I know who have ended up stripping or in the fringes of porn, 100% of them have a past with more than a little sexual abuse and a pretty significant percentage has drug problems. When I see porn, mostly I wonder what happened to land those women in that industry.

Well, allow me to shift the percentage in whatever small way I can.







I stripped for several years and HAND TO GOD was never sexually abused. Not as a child, not as an adult.

I do not doubt that many women who "end up" (I love how often that phrase gets used when talking about sex work - surely it's never a legitimate choice made by a healthy adult, just the inevitable nadir of a tragic and tawdry downward spiral, right?) in sex work have indeed been sexually abused, though I doubt the number is all that much higher than the number of women who have been sexually abused period.

I don't mean to lash out at your post - I appreciate the overall intention there, but I really do guarantee you that for as many drug-addicted rape victims you find in the dressing room, you'll find as many (yes really!) women putting themselves through school and single (and also happily married) moms.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

No change in views as of yet - have one son and a daughter on the way. Enjoy porn that suits my tastes - forgo porn that doesn't.

I don't think that porn itself objectifies women - any more than men anyway. Sexuality is a part of being human - not part of being an object... if that makes any sense? I don't know if I said that right. Maybe I don't fully understand what it means to "objectify women?" I have a very, very literal take on words...

I don't assume that the people doing porn don't really want to be. As far as I know - and I admit I know next to nothing about the industry - the people have made a choice to participate and are being paid?


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## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I think my focus on the issue has changed somewhat. I do believe in free speech, but also want to make sure children are protected from inappropriate material. But, then, what is seen as inappropriate and pornographic can be so distorted in our culture. I don't mind nudity. And the Puritans who get all appalled about bf or birth type photos or nude art are really noxious to me. I'm actually much more incensed by the airbrushed, unrealistic pictures plastered on the glossy covers of the fashion and gossip magazines.

But, on the other hand, porn can be as harmful to men than it is to women when it becomes an addiction. I want to educate my boys about pornography the way I would about any potentially addicting substance that may not be too harmful in moderation for adults (like alcohol and video games), but can be very damaging for young kids and when used to excess. I think it is much more difficult to protect our kids these days, when porn sights are so easily accessible. Boys used to have to go through some effort to get some playboy mags to hide under the mattress... now they can get a host of lurid images and create syber selves to enact scenarios by simply clicking a few buttons. It's scary.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
No change in views as of yet - have one son and a daughter on the way. Enjoy porn that suits my tastes - forgo porn that doesn't.

I don't think that porn itself objectifies women - any more than men anyway. Sexuality is a part of being human - not part of being an object... if that makes any sense? I don't know if I said that right. *Maybe I don't fully understand what it means to "objectify women?"* I have a very, very literal take on words...

I don't assume that the people doing porn don't really want to be. As far as I know - and I admit I know next to nothing about the industry - the people have made a choice to participate and are being paid?

Well, to me, it means that women are just there to have sex with, not to have a healthy, satisfying relationship with a real person.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybee* 
I think my focus on the issue has changed somewhat. I do believe in free speech, but also want to make sure children are protected from inappropriate material. But, then, what is seen as inappropriate and pornographic can be so distorted in our culture. I don't mind nudity. And the Puritans who get all appalled about bf or birth type photos or nude art are really noxious to me. I'm actually much more incensed by the airbrushed, unrealistic pictures plastered on the glossy covers of the fashion and gossip magazines.

But, on the other hand, porn can be as harmful to men than it is to women when it becomes an addiction. I want to educate my boys about pornography the way I would about any potentially addicting substance that may not be too harmful in moderation for adults (like alcohol and video games), but can be very damaging for young kids and when used to excess. I think it is much more difficult to protect our kids these days, when porn sights are so easily accessible. Boys used to have to go through some effort to get some playboy mags to hide under the mattress... now they can get a host of lurid images and create syber selves to enact scenarios by simply clicking a few buttons. It's scary.

ITA, children don't need sexual images/stereotypes pushed onto them from the media at younger & younger ages.

The ease at which porn can be accessed on the 'net is enough for me to have parental controls set so it can't be. DS#1 was caught looking at it once a few years ago, and that was enough of that!


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
Nope, hasn't changed. I still feel that it's primarily a freedom of speech and choice issue, and is fine (even healthy) for consenting _adults_ to enjoy - both male and female. Not all porn is created equal - there is undoubtedly misogynistic material out there, and it's worth discussing, though such a discussion is probably beyond the scope of this conversation. But you can't paint it all with the same brush.

Of course I will do everything I can to protect my daughter from material that's inappropriate to her age, and hope to help her develop a healthy body image and view of sexuality - and to that end, I am _MUCH_ more concerned about her exposure to Barbie, Bratz and Disney princesses, and what they say about standards of beauty and gender roles, than I am about porn.

If she grows up secure about her body and has healthy self esteem, I have no worries about the existence of porn. If she chooses to explore it when she's of age, it'll be none of my business - I just hope my job is well done re: self-worth.









:


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## haroldpapa (Mar 26, 2009)

Perhaps there are others that are disturbed, discusted and embarrassed to see the modern clothing trends going more and more (revealing/ figure enhancing) to the point that some outfits sized and advertized to be for girls less than "adult age" like as young as 13-16 are so similar to the choice of attire that prostitutes have worked in over the past 30 or so years. I feel its like advertizers are asking us to accept our daughters as sex objects and let them become "the pornography" that we are fighting against. I do believe that the "paper and electronic" porn is out of control but there is more than that; we need to stop it all.


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## haroldpapa (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm very thankful that so many of us are agreeing that porn is presenting a very harmful threat to our children. I see so many cartoons for children that push the limits on being pornographic! I'll be discussing this with some dear fellow parents to see how they veiw this problem. thanks


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *haroldpapa* 
Perhaps there are others that are disturbed, discusted and embarrassed to see the modern clothing trends going more and more (revealing/ figure enhancing) to the point that some outfits sized and advertized to be for girls less than "adult age" like as young as 13-16 are so similar to the choice of attire that prostitutes have worked in over the past 30 or so years. I feel its like advertizers are asking us to accept our daughters as sex objects and let them become "the pornography" that we are fighting against. I do believe that the "paper and electronic" porn is out of control but there is more than that; we need to stop it all.

You can dress your girl more modestly. All it takes is a little extra shopping from the parents. I put my little girl in basic blue jeans and a short sleeve t-shirt.

Halloween costumes, though... have seemed to go the way of the Japanese anime characters... very short skirts and fishnet stockings. Once again, just make your own or go collect some thrift store stuff. If no one bought the crap... the market would change.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 

I don't think emotionally healthy women end up in the porn industry. Of the small handfull of women I know who have ended up stripping or in the fringes of porn, 100% of them have a past with more than a little sexual abuse and a pretty significant percentage has drug problems. When I see porn, mostly I wonder what happened to land those women in that industry.

Me too. And even though online there is always someone who insists they or someone they know is involved and perfectly fine, IRL that has not been my experience. You can only go with what you know, yk?

Plus, the only porn I have ever seen was so demeaning to women I was instantly turned off, so I don't get the appeal at all. Why is it that women are always being put down, debased or in some way shamed and it's supposed to be sexy?









Just doesn't work for me, and I am by far not 'anti-sex.'


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I have been part of the alternative sex community for nine years. I was abused as a child, but I don't think that's why I found the community. In the community there are many many women who were never abused. Of course there are women who have been abused, but given the statistics on abuse it would be virtually impossible for there not to be. I have no idea how many porn/fetish models I know... uhm... lots. By and large they are no more healthy or unhealthy than the other women I know.









I fairly obviously don't have a problem with porn.







It hasn't changed with having a daughter. I do spend a lot of time thinking about how much exposure to anything vaguely sexual my daughter should have. Things like: I have an extensive library of sex related books. Is it ok to have them out when she is old enough to read? Maybe some of them and not others? Like for example I have a number of books on sex for survivors of sexual assault/abuse. Is having them on the shelves amidst the other psychology books TMI for my daughter? (These are certainly not pornographic books.) It's hard to figure out what is the healthy line to walk. On one hand I absolutely want my daughter to be more sheltered than I was, but I have experience with a number of people who were victimized because they were too sheltered. And then there is the fact that I am seriously creeped out by people in the community who are completely out with their young kids.

It's all very confusing.


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## rockycrop (Jul 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelaM* 

I also think it's dangerous to assume that porn is something that women only interact with as victims. I mean, men aren't the only people who watch and enjoy porn, you know? Many women, myself included, enjoy porn, and sometimes watch it. To say that porn is always disgusting implies that there is something wrong or bad about the sexuality and identity of those who enjoy it.



Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 

I do not doubt that many women who "end up" (I love how often that phrase gets used when talking about sex work - surely it's never a legitimate choice made by a healthy adult, just the inevitable nadir of a tragic and tawdry downward spiral, right?) in sex work have indeed been sexually abused, though I doubt the number is all that much higher than the number of women who have been sexually abused period.


Totally agree with the above two points.

Ultimately it is a woman's choice to work in the sex industry, or to consume products of the sex industry. I understand that abuse begets abuse, but who are any of us to assume that just because a woman is getting paid to have sex on camera that she is feeling abused/vulnerable/put down? Maybe it comes from the fantasy aspect of porn: it looks as though women are being literally controlled by men. Domination (of either sex) is a fantasy of both men and women.

I will agree that trying to provide our daughters with a healthy self esteem, body image and age-appropriate knowledge of sexual functions is a good way to try to eradicate the not so pleasant aspects of the sex industry. (I have no ties to the industry myself, I just watch porn every once in awhile.)

I have one daughter, and no, my views on pornography have no changed.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

My views haven't changed. I am not an advocate of porn in any way, shape or form. However, my aim is not to *stop* consenting adults from doing what they choose. My aim is to raise my daughter in such a way that she feels whole, complete, happy, and comfortable enough in her skin to not be attracted to a lifestyle that I believe thrives on victimization, low-self-estem, imbalance, and hedonism.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rockycrop* 
who are any of us to assume that just because a woman is getting paid to have sex on camera that she is feeling abused/vulnerable/put down?

But who are any of us to assume that she (or he) must not be? I just don't understand people not being affected by the element of the unknown here. I can't understand acknowledging that it's _possible_ we are watching a participant's abuse and still finding it in the least bit appealing or to be a defensible matter of free consumer choice. Like I said, listening to the woman starring in arguably the most mainstream porn film of all time make the claim that it essentially documented her rape ...... I just can not understand processing that possibility and still advocating for the rightfulness of making consumer choices which follow the path of greater risk potential in that respect.

If I don't support anyone buying meat without knowing the conditions under which it was produced, buying imports of obscured origin, etc, why is it wrong for me to not support the notion of unassailable personal choice in consuming the products of _another_ industry which largely essentially obscures the conditions under which the end product was produced? The cow that became the grocery store steak may have had an awesome life and relatively painless death. That Target t-shirt philomom mentioned may be helping to afford a good life for a family somewhere in China. But then again they might not ... and because of the severity of the reality of when they do not, and because I have other options for food and clothes, I can not in good conscience consume those products on the sheer hope that the brighter possibilities are the more true ones. Likewise porn. I have other options for sexual expression, even of a similar type -- art, writing, personally produced films and photos -- without that risk potential. Which in my opinion makes the risk potential just as indefensible as with other consumer products.

It's just weird to me when the ethic that inspires advocacy of the "buy local, buy with awareness, handcraft what you can, tread as lightly as possible" etc, kind gets thrown entirely out the window where an otherwise sensitive issue is involved.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

I think most porn made by adults for adult consumption lies in the realm of a basically forgivable wrong. I do not have a major problem with it and don't look down on people who indulge in it. However, I have a MAJOR problem with "soft porn" images marketed to children. I think there is some type of "conspiracy" by the entertainment industry to normalize adult/child sexual relationships and sexual images of children. I can think of lots of examples, but Disney, Miley Cyrus, Bratz dolls, are the major offenders that I can think of.

Actually on another board I frequent we had a discussion of the barely 16 y/o Miley, who doesn't look a day over 11 in the face, is dating a 20 year old man and co-habitating with him. Some one posted a long list of rather racy images of Miley that are all over the internet, to me it's practically child porn and I believe that this is all calculated effort to make young girls in general more accessible to older men who want them as partners.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
My views haven't changed. I am not an advocate of porn in any way, shape or form. However, my aim is not to *stop* consenting adults from doing what they choose. My aim is to raise my daughter in such a way that she feels whole, complete, happy, and comfortable enough in her skin to not be attracted to a lifestyle that I believe thrives on victimization, low-self-estem, imbalance, and hedonism.

So very well stated. Thank you.

Pre-child, I found porn to be debasing. Post-child, I feel the same way but now experience in a personal way the insidious danger of it.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

Well, to me, it means that women are just there to have sex with, not to have a healthy, satisfying relationship with a real person.
But, if that is what a particular woman wants, isn't that okay? Or, if a woman just wants to have sex with a man and not a relationship? Or - woman and woman and man and man? Or a bunch of either or or both and some in between? I guess I just feel that as long as everyone consents and enjoys, it should be okay. If this is straying to far off topic - I apologize...


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

Having lived in Asia for a number of years, and seeing firsthand the horror of kidnappings and the selling of women to fuel the sex industry all over the world, including North America.... I don't think it's fair to say that globally many women are choosing lives in the sex industry.

Part of my problem with it is the fact that it is an industry. It's about power, and most of the people making money in the industry are men. It's not the actors, it's the executives... and the consumers (although yes there are female consumers) are predominantly men. I don't believe it's just about sexual content and preferences. It's about the industry and exploiting those preferences outside regardless of the cost. It creates a demand for women willing to participate, and if they don't volunteer then they will go to poor countries and find them.

Julie - mom to two great kids -







:


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

My views on porn have not changed at all since becoming a mother. But then again, I didn't become a mother until I was 30 years old, so I'd had some time to form and evaluate and solidify my personal views.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Yes.

Before I had children, I had some pretty black and white views on things. I also thought I knew with certainty right from wrong.

Since the birth of my child, I realize more and more that things aren't black and white, and that I don't really know what's right or what's wrong, and that things I thought were so terrible are really okay, just part of being human. I also realized that people are born with good intentions and good spirits, and a huge variety of behaviors is something to celebrate, not condemn.

I have become more accepting, more flexible, more tolerant of the large variety of values that make up humanity; less judgemental, less certain I know what is right for everyone, and more humble.

This is so cool!!! Good for you, Mama!

I have never been offended by porn and as a young person I actually thought some of it was pretty hot, some of it was of course absurd or just not sexy, but I like some of it.

I would not be myself if I tried to shield my daughter from that kind of stuff.

I'm fine with it now, was fine with it then.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I have been part of the alternative sex community for nine years. I was abused as a child, but I don't think that's why I found the community. In the community there are many many women who were never abused. Of course there are women who have been abused, but given the statistics on abuse it would be virtually impossible for there not to be. I have no idea how many porn/fetish models I know... uhm... lots. By and large they are no more healthy or unhealthy than the other women I know.









I fairly obviously don't have a problem with porn.







It hasn't changed with having a daughter. I do spend a lot of time thinking about how much exposure to anything vaguely sexual my daughter should have. Things like: I have an extensive library of sex related books. Is it ok to have them out when she is old enough to read? Maybe some of them and not others? Like for example I have a number of books on sex for survivors of sexual assault/abuse. Is having them on the shelves amidst the other psychology books TMI for my daughter? (These are certainly not pornographic books.) It's hard to figure out what is the healthy line to walk. On one hand I absolutely want my daughter to be more sheltered than I was, but I have experience with a number of people who were victimized because they were too sheltered. And then there is the fact that I am seriously creeped out by people in the community who are completely out with their young kids.

It's all very confusing.

I just want to say that I think there is stuff that is age appropriate and stuff that isn't, I think you could almost go with your gut on that. If looking at a certain book with your LO would feel wierd then it's not the right time, y'know? I think it is important to be honest and I do think sheltering your LO's too much is a bad thing, but I think there is age appropriate timing and I think too much info can be a burden....

I don't think I clarified anything, LOL!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Mama~Love said:


> Well, to me, it means that women are just there to have sex with, not to have a healthy, satisfying relationship with a real person.QUOTE]
> 
> But porn is meant to fill a specific need, a SEXUAL need, so it stands to reason that it emphasises sex. It _is_ fantasy!
> And if anything, the women are willing participants, they objectify themselves, why paint women as the victim?


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
Me too. And even though online there is always someone who insists they or someone they know is involved and perfectly fine, IRL that has not been my experience. You can only go with what you know, yk?

Plus, the only porn I have ever seen was so demeaning to women I was instantly turned off, so I don't get the appeal at all. *Why is it that women are always being put down, debased or in some way shamed and it's supposed to be sexy?*









Just doesn't work for me, and I am by far not 'anti-sex.'

Exactly, how can that be sexy?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
But who are any of us to assume that she (or he) must not be? I just don't understand people not being affected by the element of the unknown here. I can't understand acknowledging that it's _possible_ we are watching a participant's abuse and still finding it in the least bit appealing or to be a defensible matter of free consumer choice. Like I said, listening to the woman starring in arguably the most mainstream porn film of all time make the claim that it essentially documented her rape ...... I just can not understand processing that possibility and still advocating for the rightfulness of making consumer choices which follow the path of greater risk potential in that respect.

If I don't support anyone buying meat without knowing the conditions under which it was produced, buying imports of obscured origin, etc, why is it wrong for me to not support the notion of unassailable personal choice in consuming the products of _another_ industry which largely essentially obscures the conditions under which the end product was produced? The cow that became the grocery store steak may have had an awesome life and relatively painless death. That Target t-shirt philomom mentioned may be helping to afford a good life for a family somewhere in China. But then again they might not ... and because of the severity of the reality of when they do not, and because I have other options for food and clothes, I can not in good conscience consume those products on the sheer hope that the brighter possibilities are the more true ones. Likewise porn. I have other options for sexual expression, even of a similar type -- art, writing, personally produced films and photos -- without that risk potential. Which in my opinion makes the risk potential just as indefensible as with other consumer products.

It's just weird to me when the ethic that inspires advocacy of the "buy local, buy with awareness, handcraft what you can, tread as lightly as possible" etc, kind gets thrown entirely out the window where an otherwise sensitive issue is involved.

Well said, Liquesce.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

nope, still the same views i had prior to having a daughter, and a son. i think it's degrading and it's desensitizing and it makes me feel sad in my heart as a woman and as a wife and as a mother. that said, i 100% support women's rights to make it and view it if they choose to, provided it is actually a choice instead of being coerced, abused, trafficed, or trapped into it by a total lack of other options.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
I just don't understand people not being affected by the element of the unknown here. I can't understand acknowledging that it's _possible_ we are watching a participant's abuse and still finding it in the least bit appealing or to be a defensible matter of free consumer choice. Like I said, listening to the woman starring in arguably the most mainstream porn film of all time make the claim that it essentially documented her rape ...... I just can not understand processing that possibility and still advocating for the rightfulness of making consumer choices which follow the path of greater risk potential in that respect.

This is a very good point, and also what jlobe said about women in poorer countries being abducted for the sex trade. If there's no way of knowing if the participants are truly consenting, that makes me think it goes way beyond being a free speech issue. So maybe I need to re-think my views. It's hasn't been an issue as dh and I have no interest in it for ourselves, but maybe it should bug me that it's legal with absolutely no safeguards.

I recall hearing one woman's story of how her husband and his friends, as much younger people, thought it would be cool to videotape their sexual encounters. And one day when she was pregnant with their first child, his friends came over to show this old video they had saved, of her husband having sex with some girl in a hotel room. The girl never had any idea she was being filmed.

I don't know if these men made copies and sold them or anything -- but it's scary to think that they could have.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegemamato* 
Do you feel that your views reguarding women and sexuality have changed now that you've become a mother of a daughter (or son, for that matter)?

My feelings went from ambivalence to disgust. I would never seek to control another adult person's access to it (I am not for censorship) but I would truly be happy if pornography was gone from the face of the earth.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 

It's just weird to me when the ethic that inspires advocacy of the "buy local, buy with awareness, handcraft what you can, tread as lightly as possible" etc, kind gets thrown entirely out the window where an otherwise sensitive issue is involved.


Do you think that buying tshirts or other items made in China should be banned though?

I know families that have had their living standards appreciably improved by having one of the family members work in an electronics plant or an art mill or a shoe factory, in working conditions that most of us would certainly agree are sweatshops. In fact, there's considerable competion to get those jobs and they are highly prized. So, I do have mixed feelings about buying imported goods from the developing world.

In terms of porn, I think it's the same thing. I'm not a consumer or a particular advocate for porn. But some women make a living from it voluntarily, and I think that's their right. Some, no doubt are not doing it voluntarily. I doubt making it illegal would change the situation.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
Do you think that buying tshirts or other items made in China should be banned though?

I don't recall saying porn should be banned. And I'll be the first to agree that pretty much all exploitive industries involve a nasty tangle of effects ... you close down the clear cutters and you put the logger out of business who needed that job to feed his kids, you know? What is nonsense to me, however, is suggesting that advocating boycotting this particular industry, advocating much more heavily regulating this particular industry, advocating for the rights of performers in this industry to control the rights of sale of their films and images, and being of the opinion that being a consumer of this industry as it now stands really is just as wrong for my neighbor as it is for me, is somehow just about censorship, about restricting sexual expression, about imposing a particular sexual morality upon the masses, etc, etc, etc.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
I don't recall saying porn should be banned. And I'll be the first to agree that pretty much all exploitive industries involve a nasty tangle of effects ... you close down the clear cutters and you put the logger out of business who needed that job to feed his kids, you know? What is nonsense to me, however, is suggesting that advocating boycotting this particular industry, advocating much more heavily regulating this particular industry, advocating for the rights of performers in this industry to control the rights of sale of their films and images, and being of the opinion that being a consumer of this industry as it now stands really is just as wrong for my neighbor as it is for me, is somehow just about censorship, about restricting sexual expression, about imposing a particular sexual morality upon the masses, etc, etc, etc.


On some level I don't disagree with you. Boycotting I think is going to be easy and really a non-issue for people who aren't into porn. I doubt that boycotts from people who are worried about the ethical aspects of porn would begin to make a dent in the profits of the producers.

I'm not so sure that I think the industry should be regulated any differently than the film or photography industries though, other than what is currently done regarding child pornography. Certainly performers or models in this industry should have the right to control their work the same as models or performers in any other genre.

As for what your neighbor does, I guess I think it's up to your neighbor. There are lots of things that I'd prefer my neighbors didn't do (the Evil Chemlawn comes to mind), but it's not my call.


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## silkiemum (May 15, 2007)

This is such a great thread!

Motherhood has really radicalized me as a feminist. Since becoming a mama, I've really come round to thinking that the main issue of the sexual exploitation of women, be it in pornography, prostitution, etc. is not whether or not it should be legal for consenting adults to do whatever they want together (which I wholeheartedly support!) but whether women, in our society, can truly "consent" to the selling of their bodies.

In a patriarchal society such as ours, a female growing up in a culture which apparently condones the buying of women and girls by men, and the "need" for outlets for male sexual "urges", IMHO cannot truly consent, even if she is not being coerced by poverty or addiction or abuse. Until society changes for the better for women and women's sexual expression, then pornography (and prostitution) cannot be considered harmless.

BTW, I think pornography does just as much damage to the men who view it. So it's not just because i have daughters that I feel so strongly about it!

--Andrea in eastern Canada, with DDS 3yrs. and 16 mos.


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## Mama~Love (Dec 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ceinwen* 
My feelings went from ambivalence to disgust. I would never seek to control another adult person's access to it (I am not for censorship) but *I would truly be happy if pornography was gone from the face of the earth*.

Ditto the bold.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

This is such a great thread!

Motherhood has really radicalized me as a feminist. Since becoming a mama, I've really come round to thinking that the main issue of the sexual exploitation of women, be it in pornography, prostitution, etc. is not whether or not it should be legal for consenting adults to do whatever they want together (which I wholeheartedly support!) but whether women, in our society, can truly "consent" to the selling of their bodies.

In a patriarchal society such as ours, a female growing up in a culture which apparently condones the buying of women and girls by men, and the "need" for outlets for male sexual "urges", IMHO cannot truly consent, even if she is not being coerced by poverty or addiction or abuse. Until society changes for the better for women and women's sexual expression, then pornography (and prostitution) cannot be considered harmless.

BTW, I think pornography does just as much damage to the men who view it. So it's not just because i have daughters that I feel so strongly about it!
I am not quite understanding why it seems like the woman is portrayed as always being a victim in the sex industry. There are both men and women in porn and in other sex jobs as well, including prostitution. I am confused as to why it is just women who would not be able to consent? I don't think they are selling themselves, they are being paid to do a job. The job just happens to be to have sex. For some people, having sex without any type of relationship is enjoyable so, why not get paid for it? Society has placed a lot of constraints and ideology on sex but, in the end, it is a physical act between two people. And, for some people, that is all it is. I think it is the same for women as for men. Some attach the feelings to the act and some don't. While it does seem like more women than men attach those feelings, that does not mean that the women that don't, are damaged by a career in the sex industry. Even if they don't love it, and it is just a job to them - lots of people have jobs that are just jobs to them. I think that both men and women need to have outlets for sexual urges and pornography fills that need for some people.

Just to provide some background - I've always had a more typically "male" view of sex than "female" so I think that is why I come out on this side of the debate. I am a heterosexual female but have never gotten what all the feelings and such are about when it comes to sex. To me, it is something that feels good and is fun. I honestly do not understand where the emotional aspect comes from? Maybe I am missing that part of my brain or something? I don't know...

I just wanted to provide this background because I don't want to seem like I am arguing with the poster I quoted or saying that her point was not valid - just that I don't see that side of it and, from reading the other posts, don't think I am the only one... I hate confrontation so don't want to seem confrontational







. Just wanted to participate in the discussion...


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
I am not quite understanding why it seems like *the woman is portrayed as always being a victim in the sex industry. There are both men and women in porn and in other sex jobs as well, including prostitution.* I am confused as to why it is just women who would not be able to consent? I don't think they are selling themselves, they are being paid to do a job. The job just happens to be to have sex. For some people, having sex without any type of relationship is enjoyable so, why not get paid for it? Society has placed a lot of constraints and ideology on sex but, in the end, it is a physical act between two people. And, for some people, that is all it is. I think it is the same for women as for men. Some attach the feelings to the act and some don't. While it does seem like more women than men attach those feelings, that does not mean that the women that don't, are damaged by a career in the sex industry. Even if they don't love it, and it is just a job to them - lots of people have jobs that are just jobs to them. I think that both men and women need to have outlets for sexual urges and pornography fills that need for some people.

Just to provide some background - I've always had a more typically "male" view of sex than "female" so I think that is why I come out on this side of the debate. I am a heterosexual female but have never gotten what all the feelings and such are about when it comes to sex. To me, it is something that feels good and is fun. I honestly do not understand where the emotional aspect comes from? Maybe I am missing that part of my brain or something? I don't know...

I just wanted to provide this background because I don't want to seem like I am arguing with the poster I quoted or saying that her point was not valid - just that I don't see that side of it and, from reading the other posts, don't think I am the only one... I hate confrontation so don't want to seem confrontational







. Just wanted to participate in the discussion...

Not trying to confront.. honestly









I just wanted to clarify something- to me, it seems that a lot of the MAP's on here (Mother's Against Porn







) are saying that since we don't know the circumstances involved, most porn is tainted.

We can't sit and watch/enjoy it because of the possibility (which I believe is quite high, especially those with foreign actresses) of the woman not conscenting- which can be because of past abuse leading to sexual issues, poverty, straight-up kidnapping/smuggling, a current abusive relationship, et cetera.

We simply don't want to risk it.

Also- as far as the male actors- I haven't read anything (I may have missed a couple







) that said men are not or can not be victims. There are, most likely, many males who have been victimized into making pornography- just not as many.

eta: there is also the issue of how sexual our society/world is- which screams that it's ok for women (and even teens/children) to be objectified and used in a demeaning and sexual manner.. Some women may be making porn as a result of being 'sexualized' at a young age and, thus, unable to *really* conscent.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

Not trying to confront.. honestly

I just wanted to clarify something- to me, it seems that a lot of the MAP's on here (Mother's Against Porn ) are saying that since we don't know the circumstances involved, most porn is tainted.

We can't sit and watch/enjoy it because of the possibility (which I believe is quite high, especially those with foreign actresses) of the woman not conscenting- which can be because of past abuse leading to sexual issues, poverty, straight-up kidnapping/smuggling, a current abusive relationship, et cetera.

We simply don't want to risk it.

Also- as far as the male actors- I haven't read anything (I may have missed a couple ) that said men are not or can not be victims. There are, most likely, many males who have been victimized into making pornography- just not as many.
The % of porn I have been exposed to probably wouldn't even qualify as a drop in the bucket. But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves. And, since they certainly don't seem like good actors, I'm inclined to believe that they are not being coerrsed against their will. I know that there is a lot of other types of porn out there but, I don't think watching one type necessarily supports the other types.

The post I had quoted seemed to just focus on women as victims so that is why I had mentioned that...


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
The % of porn I have been exposed to probably wouldn't even qualify as a drop in the bucket. But, from what I have seen, *the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves.* And, since they certainly don't seem like good actors, I'm inclined to believe that they are not being coerrsed against their will. I know that there is a lot of other types of porn out there but, I don't think watching one type necessarily supports the other types.

The post I had quoted seemed to just focus on women as victims so that is why I had mentioned that...

But you still don't know if they are victims and/or being coersed..

Also, the women (and men) *need* to act the part in order to get paid and/or avoid abuse. (unless they're stictly in it for the sex)


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves.

So do a lot of people in abusive relationships. How common is it for a person to reveal abuse to the complete shock of the people closest to him or her? And that's people with personal knowledge, not just strangers looking at a photograph. Have you ever watched any of the Dateline or whatever episodes on trafficking in women? Even knowing their stories those filmed still _appear_ willing. That a person appears satisfied with what they are doing can be absolutely right, but it can also be an illusion. So it's just a question of whether the possibility is a risk worth partaking of only for personal pleasure.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I agree with Amberoxy here.

Yes, it may be that they are being exploited. As far as that goes, so may many child actors. I guess I just don't feel responsible for that judgment call. The porn that I have enjoyed is pretty straightforward, and there were clearly no abductees from Asian countries in them.

I also strongly disagree with the argument that it presents women simply as someone to have sex with, and not have a relationship with. Like the pp said, it's a fantasy! Who would want to watch someone else's relationship? Yuck! And the women don't look realistic, because the point is that the sexuality be exaggerated. The men aren't particularly realistic, either.

When you watch a romantic comedy, do you get offended because the houses are so cute, and the people have great haircuts, and they're always eating delicious food and never gaining any weight? I think it's a similar experience. It's an escape, and therefore the point is to be different than real life.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
When you watch a romantic comedy, do you get offended because the houses are so cute, and the people have great haircuts, and they're always eating delicious food and never gaining any weight? I think it's a similar experience. It's an escape, and therefore the point is to be different than real life.

But in a romantic comedy I don't expect to see one sex or the other be repeatedly demeaned, at least not more so than the other. Sure, there are standard male/female jokes, but it cuts both ways.

I haven't seen any porn in years, but all that I ever saw had young, attractive women and older, less attractive men, and was always demeaning to the women with a lot of ugly talk.

Hardly my idea of fantasy or escape. To me it was catering to men who didn't like or respect women. Ugh.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegemamato* 
Do you feel that your views reguarding women and sexuality have changed now that you've become a mother of a daughter (or son, for that matter)?

this is such an interesting discussion!!! thanks for bringing this up.

personally, my views haven't changed much, it is a little harder for me since my huge realization that everyone is someone's daughter or son (but that has changed my views on a lot of things) it's just harder for me to watch it and not think about that person's parents. and honestly, thinking about someone's parents is not exactly a turn on...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
hope to help her develop a healthy body image and view of sexuality - and to that end, I am _MUCH_ more concerned about her exposure to Barbie, Bratz and Disney princesses, and what they say about standards of beauty and gender roles, than I am about porn.

this TOTALLY!!! my children aren't going to see any porn until they are much older, they will see little dolls with skimpy outfits much sooner, leasing to earlier sexualization and the accompanying issues in our society.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
I don't think it exists in a vacuum and I think as it is, it has a whole lot to do with perpetuating sexism and objectification of women. And this has everything to how we raise our daughters and sons b/c they live in this society.

it's true that we all exist in this society but i really don't think that porn is the only thing influencing "societies" ideas about objectification and sexism.... i think that a LOT of it has to do with marketing and commercialization and profit and money to be made in "regular" ventures as opposed to porn. if di$ney sells 50 million princess outfits they're making quite a bit of money...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
The % of porn I have been exposed to probably wouldn't even qualify as a drop in the bucket. But, from what I have seen, the people generally seem happy and healthy and enjoying themselves. And, *since they certainly don't seem like good actors,* I'm inclined to believe that they are not being coerrsed against their will.









TOTALLY!! horrible actors! i couldn't imagine that they could deliver their lines so obviously acting yet magically turn into tilda swinton (trying to think of a good actress) when doing it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I haven't seen any porn in years, but all that I ever saw had young, attractive women and older, less attractive men, and was always demeaning to the women with a lot of ugly talk.

i haven't ever seen any with demeaning talk. dirty talk sure, but not demeaning... and it seems that the men's faces aren't exactly shown on camera a lot... maybe why man tend to think they're inadequate size-wise







though i do think that the disparity in looks is kind of yucky. like, would it be that hard to find someone with both good looks and, uh, you know?

i'd also like to agree with the pp that said she often seems to be more typically male in her views on this stuff. same for me. sex doesn't slways have to be about emotions and feelings and relationships. sometimes it's just fun


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
i haven't ever seen any with demeaning talk. dirty talk sure, but not demeaning... and it seems that the men's faces aren't exactly shown on camera a lot... maybe why man tend to think they're inadequate size-wise







though i do think that the disparity in looks is kind of yucky. like, would it be that hard to find someone with both good looks and, uh, you know?


I just recall being profoundly grossed out by any porn I ever watched, or mildly amused, thinking _she wouldn't give you the time of day, much less have sex with you._

The stuff I recall was a lot of ordering the women around, talking down to them, and...I'm trying _sooo hard_ not to violate the UA here....WTF is up with the money shots in the face???

I've been pretty turned on in my time, but I don't recall ever thinking yeah, that would really get me off, why don't you pull out and get it all over my face instead?









Seriously?

I mean, I don't care for the pap they market to women, either, but geeze.

I'd rather watch a guy walk down the street in a well fitting pair of Levis, personally.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I agree with Amberoxy here.

Yes, it may be that they are being exploited. As far as that goes, so may many child actors. I guess I just don't feel responsible for that judgment call. The porn that I have enjoyed is pretty straightforward, and there were clearly no abductees from Asian countries in them.


I agree. To me the idea that women cannot do this kind of work voluntarily because of societal factors is extremely paternalistic.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Maybe a lot depends on what type you watch? I don't like the movies with money shots. Icky. I like less explicit stuff like what is on Showtime or HBO or Cinimax at night. Nothing demeaning that I have seen. Just happy couples having sex







. The men usually act quite tender and nice to the women. And, they are usually all the same age and same level of attractiveness - nobody gorgeous but no old, pudgy hairy men either. And, I don't think the actors are really having sex, just pretending.

I've been in the adult stores and seen the stuff there and I did think most of it looked quite gross. Just not my taste - personally. I do think with that type of porn, there is a greater chance for exploitation. But, I also have trouble with the idea that just because a women participates, she is being exploited or coercised. She may just be into that type of thing or may just view it as a job she doens't mind doing. I think the majority of the time, when there is no actual human trafficking involved, she is the one making the choice to be there. There may be circumstances that make her choices difficult - but, I still think the choice is hers.

I've been kind of trying to avoid this aspect of the debate because I think it is much larger than porn as to what constitutes coercien in any situation ( I know that I keep misspelling that word - sorry) especially when abuse is involved. The discussion would be way more than what would be suitable for this particular thread. Does this make sense? I'm not sure I am wording this right.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I agree. To me the idea that women cannot do this kind of work voluntarily because of societal factors is extremely paternalistic.

Yeah, the whole "women in our society cannot consent" thing is really bugging me here. There's a huge difference between men and women who are forced to have sex (be it on camera or off) and people who chose to have sex (even if they would chose something different if their circumstances were different). I think it's pretty insulting and dissmissive of people who have actually been raped to draw parallels between their experience and a woman who would prefer to make adult movies while she goes to college instead of working at McDonalds or Walmart for minimum wage. I think it's also insulting to those of us who have actually been raped and otherwise sexually assaulted to imply that we are so damaged that we're the only kind of woman who would choose the sex industry to work in - and that women who work in the sex industry must be so damaged that they have to have been abused.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

:

That was very well said!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm now uncomfortable with porn because from what I understand, these days what makes porn "better" is how violent and/or humiliating the acts appear to be to women. And boys who want to date my girls will watch that kind of thing, and I do worry that it could have an effect on their relationships someday.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
Yeah, the whole "women in our society cannot consent" thing is really bugging me here. There's a huge difference between men and women who are forced to have sex (be it on camera or off) and people who chose to have sex (even if they would chose something different if their circumstances were different). I think it's pretty insulting and dissmissive of people who have actually been raped to draw parallels between their experience and a woman who would prefer to make adult movies while she goes to college instead of working at McDonalds or Walmart for minimum wage. I think it's also insulting to those of us who have actually been raped and otherwise sexually assaulted to imply that we are so damaged that we're the only kind of woman who would choose the sex industry to work in - and that women who work in the sex industry must be so damaged that they have to have been abused.

Yes, all the strippers I know in real life put themselves through college that way. They used the system in place to get ahead. They took advantage of the patriarchy. It's not the choice I made, but its one I can understand.

As to the "all pornography is demeaning and violent to women" argument..... you all are looking at the wrong stuff. There's plenty out there where the woman looks like she's having fun and it looks consensual. 'Course being married for 21 years.. maybe I'm sheltered from the icky stuff.


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## silkiemum (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *philomom* 
Yes, all the strippers I know in real life put themselves through college that way. They used the system in place to get ahead. They took advantage of the patriarchy. It's not the choice I made, but its one I can understand.
.

This is kinda my point--you can't really "take advantage" of a system of discrimination such as a patriarchy, unless you are a patriarch/man. And I apologise if I offended any survivors of abuse, but I feel my point is still valid: if society as a whole has decided that women, children (and men/boys) can be sold to men for the fulfillment of their sexual desires, then no woman can truly choose to consent to stripping, porn, prostitution etc. There isn't a real choice to be made--society has already deemed it to be acceptable.

I should add that filming each other as consenting adults, erotic art, writings, etc. are totally fun and fine in my books. As is sex without strings attached, one night stands, friends with benefits etc. I just think that we can't separate the impact of one woman's perceived choice to strip or do porn from the impact upon women (and society) as whole: you may well be paying your way through college by stripping, but your actions are contributing to the dimunition and devaluation of all females and that's not what I wish for my daughters.

Until society changes, commercial pornography hurts women, and men, and children, and families--as does the Disney corp, girls gone wild, Hooters restaurants, Bratz dolls, ad nauseum. Sigh. It depresses me that something as fun and sweaty and gorgeous as sex has been so debased.

--Andrea, really enjoying the civil nature of the debate


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

if society as a whole has decided that women, children (and men/boys) can be sold to men for the fulfillment of their sexual desires, then no woman can truly choose to consent to stripping, porn, prostitution etc. There isn't a real choice to be made--society has already deemed it to be acceptable.
But, men can be sold to women, or other men for the same thing. And women can be sold to other women. Many times, the men and women selling themselves have chosen to do so. And, why wouldn't that be acceptable? There is a seller and a buyer - same as any other commodity. Why does the fact that sex is involved make it any different? I'm talking consensual here - not anything to do with human trafficking or child abuse. I guess the main point is that men are not the only buyers - women buy too.


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
This is kinda my point--you can't really "take advantage" of a system of discrimination such as a patriarchy, unless you are a patriarch/man. And I apologise if I offended any survivors of abuse, but I feel my point is still valid: if society as a whole has decided that women, children (and men/boys) can be sold to men for the fulfillment of their sexual desires, then no woman can truly choose to consent to stripping, porn, prostitution etc. There isn't a real choice to be made--society has already deemed it to be acceptable.

Your argument is fatally flawed. First, I don't believe it is true that society as a whole has agreed that anyone can be sold to "men" for the fulfillment of sexual desires, considering that in the majority of places human trafficking is a crime. That isn't to say it doesn't occur, but it is far from accepted.
The second half of your argument doesn't make a lot of sense, even if the the first part was true. Even if someone else in another country was bought and sold for the purposes of porn, how does that affect the choice of someone else who is not even aware that occurred? You are making a huge leap in logic which cannot be supported.


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## silkiemum (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
But, men can be sold to women, or other men for the same thing. And women can be sold to other women. Many times, the men and women selling themselves have chosen to do so. And, why wouldn't that be acceptable? There is a seller and a buyer - same as any other commodity. Why does the fact that sex is involved make it any different? I'm talking consensual here - not anything to do with human trafficking or child abuse. I guess the main point is that men are not the only buyers - women buy too.

From what I understand, very, very few women buy sex. It is almost statistically irrelevant, and it is almost certainly tangential to a discussion of prostitution or commercial pornography. And it is a very different act for a man, privileged by his gender, to sell sex to a woman. As for the boys and men who sell sex to other men, they are being oppressed by the same societal forces as female prostitutes.

I think I haven't gotten my point across: It is unacceptable for people, and especially women and girls, to be treated as , in your words, "any other commodity." And if our male-dominated society has decided that it IS acceptable, then sex workers have no real choice, no real opportunity to give consent. But prostitution wasn't the OP's topic, and I'm sorry I hijacked it.......

--Andrea in NS, suddenly very appreciative of her DH.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
But, men can be sold to women, or other men for the same thing. And women can be sold to other women. Many times, the men and women selling themselves have chosen to do so. And, why wouldn't that be acceptable? There is a seller and a buyer - same as any other commodity. Why does the fact that sex is involved make it any different? I'm talking consensual here - not anything to do with human trafficking or child abuse. I guess the main point is that men are not the only buyers - women buy too.

Aside from that, I reject outright the idea that someone is "selling themselves" or "being sold" when doing something sexual for money. I'm not sure how it's different than working for money in any other job/career, except that some people put a different/greater value on sex than they do on mopping floors, tending children, mail delivery, construction work, stage acting, dance instructing, teaching, etc.

It horrifies me that there are people forced into sexual slavery (both on camera and otherwise). I completely understand why someone who might otherwise enjoy pornography would choose not to support it/but it/watch it because they feel like can't tell the difference between pornography that was produced consensually and pornography that is not. But I object to the idea that women who are consenting to participate in it are being told that they don't matter, that they don't have the power to choose and that they are deluded if they think they do. There's a huge difference between being kidnapped and forced to have sex on film and a woman walking into a porn studio and signing a contract or setting up with a webcam and a paypal account to make some extra money.


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## silkiemum (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheTMommy* 
Your argument is fatally flawed. First, I don't believe it is true that society as a whole has agreed that anyone can be sold to "men" for the fulfillment of sexual desires, considering that in the majority of places human trafficking is a crime. That isn't to say it doesn't occur, but it is far from accepted.
The second half of your argument doesn't make a lot of sense, even if the the first part was true. Even if someone else in another country was bought and sold for the purposes of porn, how does that affect the choice of someone else who is not even aware that occurred? You are making a huge leap in logic which cannot be supported.


Fatally flawed? That's a bit harsh! How about, "I disagree with you, because... Yes, human trafficking is a crime--one which, especially in the former USSR and Asia is not even hindered by law enforcement--or, really, by societal convention. And if you don't think our North American society approves of the selling of human bodies, what do you consider prostitution to be? Perhaps "renting" another person? Even stripping is the act of displaying one's body for temporary hire. If there is money involved (and in porn, human trafficking and even street prostitution, there's a LOT of money involved), people are being sold--and thereby, bought. And men are, by and large, the buyers.

As for the second part of your accusation, you have misunderstood my argument. (Although frankly, ignorance is no defense on the part of a sex consumer.) My argument was: if--as all indicators, economic, health, political, seem to point to-- women are not equal to men in our society, then women cannot truly consent to the selling of their bodies/images. This logic is the basis of the statuatory rape law, as well as the prohibition against child pornography. Truly, I wish women didn't require such protection, but they do.

--Andrea, in NS, feeling that the debate is gettin' ugly fast


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
I am not quite understanding why it seems like the woman is portrayed as always being a victim in the sex industry. There are both men and women in porn and in other sex jobs as well, including prostitution. I am confused as to why it is just women who would not be able to consent? I don't think they are selling themselves, they are being paid to do a job. The job just happens to be to have sex. For some people, having sex without any type of relationship is enjoyable so, why not get paid for it? Society has placed a lot of constraints and ideology on sex but, in the end, it is a physical act between two people. And, for some people, that is all it is. I think it is the same for women as for men. Some attach the feelings to the act and some don't. While it does seem like more women than men attach those feelings, that does not mean that the women that don't, are damaged by a career in the sex industry. Even if they don't love it, and it is just a job to them - lots of people have jobs that are just jobs to them. I think that both men and women need to have outlets for sexual urges and pornography fills that need for some people.

Just to provide some background - I've always had a more typically "male" view of sex than "female" so I think that is why I come out on this side of the debate. I am a heterosexual female but have never gotten what all the feelings and such are about when it comes to sex. To me, it is something that feels good and is fun. I honestly do not understand where the emotional aspect comes from? Maybe I am missing that part of my brain or something? I don't know...

I just wanted to provide this background because I don't want to seem like I am arguing with the poster I quoted or saying that her point was not valid - just that I don't see that side of it and, from reading the other posts, don't think I am the only one... I hate confrontation so don't want to seem confrontational







. Just wanted to participate in the discussion...

This is so true. My BFF is like that, does not attach feelings to sex if feelings don't need to be attached. She likes sex and doesn't need to care about someone to have it.
Yes, she might be damaged emotionally(whose not in some way, after all) but not from a life in the sex industry or some sort of sexual abuse. Just normal disfunction in relationships that I find to be so common in this day and age.

And that holds true for men, too.

I hate the excuse that women are victims because of how men percieve them, give me a break!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
I think I haven't gotten my point across: It is unacceptable for people, and especially women and girls, to be treated as , in your words, "any other commodity." And if our male-dominated society has decided that it IS acceptable, then sex workers have no real choice, no real opportunity to give consent. But prostitution wasn't the OP's topic, and I'm sorry I hijacked it.......


And this is where the difference lies. I don't think selling sex is selling people. I think it's selling labor, just like I sold my labor when I worked at a grocery store.


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## KnittingTigers (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
But I object to the idea that women who are consenting to participate in it are being told that they don't matter, that they don't have the power to choose and that they are deluded if they think they do. There's a huge difference between being kidnapped and forced to have sex on film and a woman walking into a porn studio and signing a contract or setting up with a webcam and a paypal account to make some extra money.

I agree with this. While I, like everyone else in this discussion, think that non-consensual sex, coerced sex, and non-voluntary participation in the sex industry is completely unacceptable, I also think that it's unacceptable to claim that women are incapable of freely consenting to sex work. Indeed, we've heard from women right here on this thread who have talked about their own work and participation in the sex industry. Are people implying that they are wrong? Deluded? Incapable of making choices of their own? Acting without agency?

I also think that this line of reasoning leads us down a slippery slope. The same people who claim that women can't consent to sex work often also claim that women cannot truly consent to any sort of kinky sex, S/M, etc., and I find this extremely troubling...


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
Fatally flawed? That's a bit harsh! How about, "I disagree with you, because... Yes, human trafficking is a crime--one which, especially in the former USSR and Asia is not even hindered by law enforcement--or, really, by societal convention. And if you don't think our North American society approves of the selling of human bodies, what do you consider prostitution to be? Perhaps "renting" another person? Even stripping is the act of displaying one's body for temporary hire. If there is money involved (and in porn, human trafficking and even street prostitution, there's a LOT of money involved), people are being sold--and thereby, bought. And men are, by and large, the buyers.

As for the second part of your accusation, you have misunderstood my argument. (Although frankly, ignorance is no defense on the part of a sex consumer.) My argument was: if--as all indicators, economic, health, political, seem to point to-- women are not equal to men in our society, then women cannot truly consent to the selling of their bodies/images. This logic is the basis of the statuatory rape law, as well as the prohibition against child pornography. Truly, I wish women didn't require such protection, but they do.

--Andrea, in NS, feeling that the debate is gettin' ugly fast

Fatally flawed is not really an ugly thing to say....(?)

Anyway.

Strippers aren't selling their bodies. They are selling a show. A fantasy, even. But not their body. The "buyer" doesn't get to go home with the stripper, keep her for as long as he likes and do whatever he wants with her. He gains entrance to the club for money, tips the girls he chooses, possibly buys a _lap dance or private dance_ and then goes home _sans_ stripper.
And if some strippers happen to also prostitute that still does not make _them_ up for sale. It is exactly as a pp said, a renting situation. Is it ethical? I don't know. Is it good for those women's self esteem? Prolly not. It is _*their*_ choice? And emphatic yes from over here!!!!!!!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelaM* 
I agree with this. While I, like everyone else in this discussion, think that non-consensual sex, coerced sex, and non-voluntary participation in the sex industry is completely unacceptable, I also think that it's unacceptable to claim that women are incapable of freely consenting to sex work. Indeed, we've heard from women right here on this thread who have talked about their own work and participation in the sex industry. Are people implying that they are wrong? Deluded? Incapable of making choices of their own? Acting without agency?

I also think that this line of reasoning leads us down a slippery slope. The same people who claim that women can't consent to sex work often also claim that women cannot truly consent to any sort of kinky sex, S/M, etc., and I find this extremely troubling...


Yes, this!

And it isn't a very feminist perspective to think that women don't have the faculties to make _those_ kind of decisions on their own!!!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
And if you don't think our North American society approves of the selling of human bodies, what do you consider prostitution to be? Perhaps "renting" another person? Even stripping is the act of displaying one's body for temporary hire. If there is money involved (and in porn, human trafficking and even street prostitution, there's a LOT of money involved), people are being sold--and thereby, bought.

SNIP

This logic is the basis of the statuatory rape law, as well as the prohibition against child pornography. Truly, I wish women didn't require such protection, but they do.

--Andrea, in NS, feeling that the debate is gettin' ugly fast


As I stated above, any type of labor could then be considered selling one's self. I'm cool with that description, but generally people aren't.

as to the second half - well, you could just as easily say that I cannot consent to having sex with my husband, because he has power over me just because he is part of the patriarchy. In fact, he has more power over me than some random guy I might (theoretically) have sex with for money, because I have children with him, and because he earns the income in our family. Or am I deluded to think I'm not being exploited by him?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
Aside from that, I reject outright the idea that someone is "selling themselves" or "being sold" when doing something sexual for money. I'm not sure how it's different than working for money in any other job/career, except that some people put a different/greater value on sex than they do on mopping floors, tending children, mail delivery, construction work, stage acting, dance instructing, teaching, etc.

It horrifies me that there are people forced into sexual slavery (both on camera and otherwise). I completely understand why someone who might otherwise enjoy pornography would choose not to support it/but it/watch it because they feel like can't tell the difference between pornography that was produced consensually and pornography that is not. But I object to the idea that women who are consenting to participate in it are being told that they don't matter, that they don't have the power to choose and that they are deluded if they think they do. There's a huge difference between being kidnapped and forced to have sex on film and a woman walking into a porn studio and signing a contract or setting up with a webcam and a paypal account to make some extra money.


How have we gotten the idea that there is _no_ way to tell the difference between consenual porn and non-consenual porn?

Just buy reputable porn from vendors like playboy or penthouse.


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## silkiemum (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelaM* 
I agree with this. While I, like everyone else in this discussion, think that non-consensual sex, coerced sex, and non-voluntary participation in the sex industry is completely unacceptable, I also think that it's unacceptable to claim that women are incapable of freely consenting to sex work. Indeed, we've heard from women right here on this thread who have talked about their own work and participation in the sex industry. Are people implying that they are wrong? Deluded? Incapable of making choices of their own? Acting without agency?

I also think that this line of reasoning leads us down a slippery slope. The same people who claim that women can't consent to sex work often also claim that women cannot truly consent to any sort of kinky sex, S/M, etc., and I find this extremely troubling...


I don't wish to make personal accusations or judgments about the choices of anyone who has contributed to this discussion. But, yes, I do honestly believe that women who participate in the sex industry are acting without true agency, and are being fooled into thinking that they can. NOT that they are foolish, or deluded, just that there are forces more powerful than one person's will at work.
I also think that there SHOULD be a world of difference between selling sex and selling other forms of labour. But there is a correlation between how we view stereotypically "women's work" such as caregiving, cleaning, retail, etc. and how we view prostitution. Although I don't equate cleaning and, say, fellating, neither is valued either politically or economically. Which brings me to my well-flogged dead horse:
women do not hold the power in our world, unfortunately.

I don't see how this argument can lead to not being able to consent, in her personal life, to S and M or kinkiness in general. S/M is about power, yes, but in a playful and private sphere.

Words, especially typed words, are so darnedly imprecise!

--Andrea


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
How have we gotten the idea that there is _no_ way to tell the difference between consenual porn and non-consenual porn?

Just buy reputable porn from vendors like playboy or penthouse.

There are some people who have stated that they can't tell the difference. If they don't think they can, I can understand them choosing not to buy any of it.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
There are some people who have stated that they can't tell the difference. If they don't think they can, I can understand them choosing not to buy any of it.

I guess.

But I can prety much guarantee that whatever you think of Hugh Hefnef, he is not selling porn that was made using women who are being coerced in ways other than say flattery or generally socially accepted means.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

privileged by his gender
What does this mean, please? I don't understand. I don't think that men have sex priveleges that I don't have. I don't think that men have special priveleges when it comes to sex. The stuff that is legal for men is legal for women and the stuff that is illegal for men is illegal for women. We can all choose to either participate or not in sexual activities that involve payment.

I'm not saying that people are being treated as a commodity. Just that in these situations, sex is a product. Like, someone that plays baseball is not selling themselves, they are selling their skill. So, sex can be the same thing. In porn, people are providing a service to other people who enjoy watching other people have sex.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
In a patriarchal society such as ours, a female growing up in a culture which apparently condones the buying of women and girls by men, and the "need" for outlets for male sexual "urges", IMHO cannot truly consent, even if she is not being coerced by poverty or addiction or abuse. Until society changes for the better for women and women's sexual expression, then pornography (and prostitution) cannot be considered harmless.

I think this is an incredibly paternalistic argument, the very opposite of feminism, actually, as well as a very slippery slope. If women can't consent to work in the sex industry, what else can't they consent to because our society is a patriarchy? Using your logic, an argument could be made that we can't consent to marriage or children, either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
Yeah, the whole "women in our society cannot consent" thing is really bugging me here. There's a huge difference between men and women who are forced to have sex (be it on camera or off) and people who chose to have sex (even if they would chose something different if their circumstances were different). I think it's pretty insulting and dismissive of people who have actually been raped to draw parallels between their experience and a woman who would prefer to make adult movies while she goes to college instead of working at McDonalds or Walmart for minimum wage. I think it's also insulting to those of us who have actually been raped and otherwise sexually assaulted to imply that we are so damaged that we're the only kind of woman who would choose the sex industry to work in - and that women who work in the sex industry must be so damaged that they have to have been abused.

You said it much better than I did.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

I also think that there SHOULD be a world of difference between selling sex and selling other forms of labour.
Why?


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

Yes, she might be damaged emotionally(whose not in some way, after all) but not from a life in the sex industry or some sort of sexual abuse.
I don't think I am emotionally damaged - just different from the majority of women...I actually think I am very healthy emotionally wise. I'm a happily married mommy who just happens to enjoy the occasional dirty movie







.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
Sigh. It depresses me that something as fun and sweaty and gorgeous as sex has been so debased.

I do agree with this wholeheartedly. Sex with the mate of my choice is good old-fashioned fun as far as I'm concerned.

But this is the real world we live in. When my kids were little I steered them clear of disney, bratz, yucky stuff that tries to sexualize children too soon. I always let my kids know how I feel about sex selling toothpaste or any other product. I debunk common sexual myths for them. (they are teenagers now) And generally try to let them know how I feel about sex and our family values.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I guess.

But I can prety much guarantee that whatever you think of Hugh Hefnef, he is not selling porn that was made using women who are being coerced in ways other than say flattery or generally socially accepted means.

Read _Ordeal_. Then revisit the idea that what appears to be reputable porn must be as it appears. No, I don't think good old Hef or whoever is in any respect holding women at gunpoint, or that most of the models who appear therein have someone behind the scenes pulling their strings. But even once is too much. We're not talking about a tradeoff for a necessity, we're talking a tradeoff for a voyeuristic indulgence. The threshold for tolerance of damage done should dramatically drop in such a case.


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silkiemum* 
Fatally flawed? That's a bit harsh! How about, "I disagree with you, because...

I didn't say that, although it is true, because your argument is...fatally flawed.

Quote:

Yes, human trafficking is a crime--one which, especially in the former USSR and Asia is not even hindered by law enforcement--or, really, by societal convention. And if you don't think our North American society approves of the selling of human bodies, what do you consider prostitution to be? Perhaps "renting" another person? Even stripping is the act of displaying one's body for temporary hire. If there is money involved (and in porn, human trafficking and even street prostitution, there's a LOT of money involved), people are being sold--and thereby, bought. And men are, by and large, the buyers.
Um, and this is why your argument is fatally flawed. The fact that human trafficking is done in secret, to the point of the victims being smuggled across borders, and is illegal immediately puts an end to your statement that society as a whole accepts it. Yes, some nations do have corruption and internal issues that make it possible for it to occur, but it is still not acceptable.
Also, I do believe that prostitution is illegal in most of North America, so again, you are way off base.

Quote:

As for the second part of your accusation, you have misunderstood my argument. (Although frankly, ignorance is no defense on the part of a sex consumer.) My argument was: if--as all indicators, economic, health, political, seem to point to-- women are not equal to men in our society, then women cannot truly consent to the selling of their bodies/images. This logic is the basis of the statuatory rape law, as well as the prohibition against child pornography. Truly, I wish women didn't require such protection, but they do.
Then by extension you are saying women really can't consent to anything. While I agree that equality is still an issue we need to fight for, I will have to say "thanks but no thanks" to the thought that I cannot make my own decisions.

--Andrea, in NS, feeling that the debate is gettin' ugly fast[/QUOTE]


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
I don't think I am emotionally damaged - just different from the majority of women...I actually think I am very healthy emotionally wise. I'm a happily married mommy who just happens to enjoy the occasional dirty movie







.

Well, this is OT, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had your emotions damaged in some way, that you don't carry _any_ baggage, but if not well hen good for you! You've made it thus far unscathed, that's pretty much a miracle IMO and you should be quite grateful!


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## silkiemum (May 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla* 
I think this is an incredibly paternalistic argument, the very opposite of feminism, actually, as well as a very slippery slope. If women can't consent to work in the sex industry, what else can't they consent to because our society is a patriarchy? Using your logic, an argument could be made that we can't consent to marriage or children, either.
.

My understanding of feminism is the belief that women and men should be treated equally by society, and the working towards that eventual goal. I'm not sure why it is "unfeminist" to point out that our society is male-dominated. I think we can all agree that women having control of their bodies is a good thing--I fear we differ on whether it is currently true or not. But I refuse to continue to be accused of being anti-feminist, or anti-woman.

I am not alone in my beliefs that the sex industry is harmful to women and children. I in no way have implied that women are incapable of thought, or that sexually abused women are "damaged" or worthless, or indeed that there should be shame attached to sex workers--these hurtful remarks are being misattributed to me. I cannot expect (nor would I want) everyone to agree with me, but I can expect to be treated with respect in this discussion, and so...

Roger out.

--Andrea


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Well, this is OT, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had your emotions damaged in some way, that you don't carry _any_ baggage, but if not well hen good for you! You've made it thus far unscathed, that's pretty much a miracle IMO and you should be quite grateful!

Having your "emotions damaged" and being "emotionally damaged" seem like two very, very different concepts to me.


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

Quote:

It horrifies me that there are people forced into sexual slavery (both on camera and otherwise).
Why? If sex is no more different/special/valued than any other activity or commodity, why would sexual slavery be worse than regular slavery or forced labor? You can't just decide sex is important when it's forced but not when it's not.

Quote:

I don't think selling sex is selling people. I think it's selling labor, just like I sold my labor when I worked at a grocery store.
Do you think that rape should be a separate legal charge different from assault? If you think selling sex is no different than selling other labor, you can't really argue that forcing sex is any different from assault or any other regular non sexual violence, right?


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC* 
Why? If sex is no more different/special/valued than any other activity or commodity, why would sexual slavery be worse than regular slavery or forced labor? You can't just decide sex is important when it's forced but not when it's not.

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the poster would also be horrified by slavery. I know I am, be it sexual or otherwise.


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

Quote:

I am not alone in my beliefs that the sex industry is harmful to women and children.
I daresay it's damaging to men, as well. I don't think it's possible to consent to your own violation/exploitation. Just like it's not okay to be racist against your own racial group.


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheTMommy* 
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the poster would also be horrified by slavery. I know I am, be it sexual or otherwise.

Of course, as would I. But do you not see them as different?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheTMommy* 
Having your "emotions damaged" and being "emotionally damaged" seem like two very, very different concepts to me.

What are the "very, very" different concepts at play here that I am missing?


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC* 
Of course, as would I. But do you not see them as different?

When all is said and done, not really, no.


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
What are the "very, very" different concepts at play here that I am missing?

Start with permanent versus temporary.


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## TheTMommy (Oct 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC* 
I daresay it's damaging to men, as well. I don't think it's possible to consent to your own violation/exploitation. Just like it's not okay to be racist against your own racial group.

If someone truly consents, are they really being violated or exploited?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC* 
I daresay it's damaging to men, as well. I don't think it's possible to consent to your own violation/exploitation. Just like it's not okay to be racist against your own racial group.

Hm. well, I guess it would depend on if you actually agreed that you were being exploited. I think the whole agreeing to it and getting paid for it part sort of nullifies the the exploitation part, but that's just me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissinNYC* 
Of course, as would I. But do you not see them as different?

Only by degrees. I'm just as horrified by forced physical labor as I am by forced sex. I've only experienced one of them, but it's not like I'd say say "wow, I really wish someone had forced me into hard labor instead of raping me, since rape is so much worse!"


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:

Well, this is OT, but I find it hard to believe that you have never had your emotions damaged in some way, that you don't carry any baggage, but if not well hen good for you! You've made it thus far unscathed, that's pretty much a miracle IMO and you should be quite grateful!
I don't want to get too far OT either but I had just wanted to reply to what seemed like a response to what I had said previoulsy...Maybe I misunderstood? Anyway...I certainly carry baggage but, I don't think it affects my emotions. I feel happy when I should, sad when I should, scared when I should so on and so forth. There have certainly been bad things that have happened to me but I think my emotional response to those things is normal and healthy. I don't see that as a miracle - just normal healing with time. While I agree that my lack of attachting emotions to sex is unusual, I don't think it is evidence of damage. I frankly don't understand why people do attach emotions and all the other society conventions to it...but, that would be a whole other thread I think







.

In a way though - I think that maybe the emotional aspect does have something to do with the different views expressed here? This is just a guess but, I think maybe that those who feel more emotions during sex are less likely to enjoy porn and those that feel less emotions during sex are more likely to enjoy porn? I wonder if we took two polls, how they would correlate? I guess MDC isn't really the place for that though since there really isn't a sex discussion forum category. I wish there was though!


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I'm now uncomfortable with porn because from what I understand, these days what makes porn "better" is how violent and/or humiliating the acts appear to be to women.

seriously, there are laws in place about violence in porn and unless you're seriously into the black market or have some "friends" into that stuff all the porn i've ever seen has been totally non-violent, even the more non-mainstream stuff i've seen.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
While I agree that my lack of attachting emotions to sex is unusual, I don't think it is evidence of damage. I frankly don't understand why people do attach emotions and all the other society conventions to it...but, that would be a whole other thread I think







.

In a way though - I think that maybe the emotional aspect does have something to do with the different views expressed here? This is just a guess but, I think maybe that those who feel more emotions during sex are less likely to enjoy porn and those that feel less emotions during sex are more likely to enjoy porn? I wonder if we took two polls, how they would correlate? I guess MDC isn't really the place for that though since there really isn't a sex discussion forum category. I wish there was though!

i think this is totally true! honestly, i think our society is very puritan in it's views on sex BUT maybe that's because i'm another person that doesn't attach much emotion to sex at all and i have a hard time seeing why sex brings up all these issues.

and i have heard the idea that women can't consent in a patriarchal society... i'm not sure it resonates with me, but i can see how your choices are already dictated by what society deems acceptable.

like, how easy would it be to live as a lesbian couple in the a rural area? where i live, it would be pretty difficult, just because quite a few of the people that live out here deem that very unacceptable (did i mention we're moving soon?) so, that option might still be a choice but it's not really a very valid choice because of the difficulties inherent in it.


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## KnittingTigers (Mar 16, 2007)

So, I think that this has been a very interesting conversation, and I really appreciate the willingness of people on both sides to engage in a complicated and sometimes contentious issue with respect for each other.

However, we are now REALLY off topic from the original question, and I am going to propose that maybe it's time to all agree to disagree, and move on to other threads.

Thanks, everyone, for giving me a lot to think about.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

After reading through all of these (since this was my thread







) I've decided to come clean about something. So, please, be nice because I have NEVER told this to anyone before (so why not do it on a public forum, eh?)..

So, when I was 16, homeless and hungry I gave a man a handjob. He drove by, picked me up, I willingly got in, I even smiled. I gave him his 'service' and he gave my $10.

I wasn't 'forced' or kidnapped, but I can't even describe all of the feelings that came after. I tried to kill myself, I put myself into riskier situations. I was even kidnapped/raped at gunpoint for three days a few months later.

Unfortunetely, I had no other [real] options. And I am forever damaged because of that one decision to make money doing something that most of my other homeless friends did. A lot of them made porn too (most of us were under 18).

Anyway- I appeared happy and I actually was pretty healthy (looking), but I do not consider what I did to be fully conscentual..

Sorry that strayed a bit, just providing another [real-life] side to this discussion..


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

Vegemamato - I am so sorry for what you went through - it sounds like a very rough time for you. I hope that your situation is better now and that you are happy and healthy!

I think I agree with Angela, the thread has gotten very OP and I don't think either side will convince the other to change views. I'm going to go ahead and bow out now. I also want to thank everyone for the honest discussions that did not end up exploding. So many threads on here end up being so hurtful and I think we all did a great job of keeping this one friendly while discussing something that clearly has deep meanings to many people. I'm guessing the mods were probably watching this one pretty closely but we didn't get shut down - yay!


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amberoxy* 
Vegemamato - I am so sorry for what you went through - it sounds like a very rough time for you. I hope that your situation is better now and that you are happy and healthy!

I think I agree with Angela, the thread has gotten very OP and I don't think either side will convince the other to change views. I'm going to go ahead and bow out now. I also want to thank everyone for the honest discussions that did not end up exploding. So many threads on here end up being so hurtful and I think we all did a great job of keeping this one friendly while discussing something that clearly has deep meanings to many people. I'm guessing the mods were probably watching this one pretty closely but we didn't get shut down - yay!









Thank you- I am still dealing with many issues reguarding my past.. and this thread has actually helpe me a lot in terms of this.

I really enjoyed the discussion here too (which I thought remained very respectful also!)

I appreciate the varying veiws


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
But in a romantic comedy I don't expect to see one sex or the other be repeatedly demeaned, at least not more so than the other. Sure, there are standard male/female jokes, but it cuts both ways.

I haven't seen any porn in years, but all that I ever saw had young, attractive women and older, less attractive men, and was always demeaning to the women with a lot of ugly talk.

Hardly my idea of fantasy or escape. To me it was catering to men who didn't like or respect women. Ugh.

Well everything I've seen the women and men are of about the same level of attractiveness, and age. Granted, I think women can do more to improve their appearance with makeup, but otherwise, they're about the same.

I also haven't seen any porn where it's all about demeaning the woman. I know it's out there, but I wouldn't be into that. Though I guess it depends on your definition of demeaning.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegemamato* 
After reading through all of these (since this was my thread







) I've decided to come clean about something. So, please, be nice because I have NEVER told this to anyone before (so why not do it on a public forum, eh?)..

So, when I was 16, homeless and hungry I gave a man a handjob. He drove by, picked me up, I willingly got in, I even smiled. I gave him his 'service' and he gave my $10.

I wasn't 'forced' or kidnapped, but I can't even describe all of the feelings that came after. I tried to kill myself, I put myself into riskier situations. I was even kidnapped/raped at gunpoint for three days a few months later.

Unfortunetely, I had no other [real] options. And I am forever damaged because of that one decision to make money doing something that most of my other homeless friends did. A lot of them made porn too (most of us were under 18).

Anyway- I appeared happy and I actually was pretty healthy (looking), but I do not consider what I did to be fully conscentual..

Sorry that strayed a bit, just providing another [real-life] side to this discussion..

I wonder how much of this had to do with the fact that you were a child?

I ask because at this point, if I were homeless or my kids were hungry, I know I could easily prostitute myself without a backward glance or regret. It would be icky, of course, but I really doubt it would have any significant emotional impact on me.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
Well everything I've seen the women and men are of about the same level of attractiveness, and age. Granted, I think women can do more to improve their appearance with makeup, but otherwise, they're about the same.

I also haven't seen any porn where it's all about demeaning the woman. I know it's out there, but I wouldn't be into that. Though I guess it depends on your definition of demeaning.

I don't think I can describe it without violating the UA.

But apparently there are many different kinds out there and I have been unfortunate enough to have seen the bottom of the barrel. I've never seen any that was remotely sexy, just gross.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
it's_*not*_ like I'd say say "wow, I really wish someone had forced me into hard labor instead of raping me, since rape is so much worse!"


If those were my only two options, I would certainly, without a doubt, choose forced hard labor over rape!! 1000 times over.


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Nope, I still feel the same about it. I have one daughter and one son.

same here.


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