# How do you handle toddler refusing to pick up?



## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm talking about if they cause something to land on the floor, either intentionally or unintentionally. DS has been doing this a long time and I need a better way to deal with it. He is just over 2.5 and high spirited. Thank goodness he doesn't usually do it with food anymore, that really pushed my buttons. We have two dogs but they don't clean up that well.

Sometimes he picks things up fine other times not, just depends on his mood I guess. I ask him nicely to please pick up item. If he doesn't, I sit on the floor then hold him on my lap until he decides to pick it up. I'm sure it's going to get to a point where I have to sit there an awfully long time, so there has got to be a better way. DH, of course, says "do you want to go to your room? Go to your room!" which upsets me extremely but is another issue.

I know you can't really force anyone to do anything, but how can I get him to be more cooperative? I'm pretty consistent about asking him to pick things up, I occasionally will pick it up if he accidentally dropped item and it's easy enough for me to get it. I will also say things like "pick that up please so we can [insert fun activity]"

I also have him bring his plates back to the kitchen counter when he is done eating. Kind of the same thing, he usually complies but not always. I always say Thank You when he does comply.

Ideas? Thanks!


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## sweetkid (Feb 5, 2008)

My dd is 2.5 and will pick up when she wants to. She is wanting to more and more since we made a pick up one thing before getting into another rule. She was waiting and watching us pick up and we would just really casually ask her for her help. "You want to help me so we can get your trains faster?". She is also allowed to keep certain things "out" on occasion, really its just all on her so there is no battle about clean-up. We also have dogs oone of which eats wooden toys and one that carries around anything plush, so if we are leaving the house and there are things around that they will eat I say "oh man the dogs are going to eat those when we are out. She will pick up right away in that case.

When she makes a mess on purpose, with snacks,drinks,water or art supplies she can sit on the couch and watch me clean up or she can help, again helping is way more fun than sitting especially when you get to have a nice warm soapy sponge.

I don't think toddlers really get the whole clean up thing and think we are really wierd for wanting to do it so until they get a little older the best techniques IMO are avoiding battles and remaining non chalant about picking up as much as possible.

Sorry I'm rereading this and thinking maybe not so helpful???


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

At that age, I tried to make it fun for my spirited toddler to help me pick up, but her participation was hit or miss. It still is today (she's just about to turn 3), but better. Though it's almost equally likely that she'll go to pick something up and say, "Mama, you have to help me clean up now!"







I've certainly given the impression that we work together on these things.

I didn't push it at that age. I encouraged it, I made it as much of a game/group activity as possible, and when she didn't help, I just did it myself - not a big deal. If it was bothering me, I would either not pick up until later (do all pickup once rather than multiple times throughout the day) or remove a lot of toys/mess-making items so that her ability to make a big mess was drastically reduced or eliminated. When I was getting frustrated, preventing the problem in the first place was very helpful, though she would sometimes get upset that I was taking her toys away. In my opinion, and as I explained it to her, if I had to pick up then I could put them away elsewhere, and she would get them back later when she was ready to help pick up also. Her upset at removal never lasted very long (and I never took everything away, just most/lots).

Good luck; it definitely is a work in progress with a toddler. I would not do the lap thing, personally - my dd would have screamed and tantrummed and become very, very upset at that kind of restraint, so there's no way it would have worked for us. That's more about her personality than your strategy, though.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I don't really expect my 3 year old DD to pick up. Sometimes I say "let's put up ????" and begin picking it up myself. Sometimes she helps and sometimes I pick it up by myself. I think it's ok to ask, I just think they're not developmentally ready to do it consistently.
One thing I do now when I get tired of mess is to put all of her stuff in a canvas bag. I put the bag in her room until I have time to put the toys away. Sometimes she just pulls the toys back out before I get to it, but at least it's an easy quick way to straighten up.
We don't have any kind of consequences for being messy except for water, which has to stay in a sink or tub or you can't play in it. We also don't restrict the amount of things she is playing with at a time ........ otherwise the dinosaurs couldn't try to eat the train and my DH's old model Captain Picard couldn't load the farm animals into the space shuttle and save them from the giant shark.


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks! It's not always his toys/stuff, a lot of times it's just general stuff on the kitchen counter or whatever. If he's next to it and mad, it's an easy target!

Quote:

I would either not pick up until later (do all pickup once rather than multiple times throughout the day) or remove a lot of toys/mess-making items so that her ability to make a big mess was drastically reduced or eliminated
I often do this (he'll just leave things on the floor when I'm not there and sometimes I'll move it myself or do a bigger cleaning all at once)

Quote:

I don't think toddlers really get the whole clean up thing and think we are really wierd for wanting to do it so until they get a little older the best techniques IMO are avoiding battles and remaining non chalant about picking up as much as possible.
This does make sense. I'm just trying not to get him into bad habits and thinking he can just leave stuff lying around all over. The problem now though, is if I decide to relax about it, DH will not.


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## Harmony08 (Feb 4, 2009)

Hey,

I used to teach two year olds. I just wanted to point out that it will usually back fire when you ask a child to do something that you are going to make them do anyway. If you say "Will you please pick up your______?" He has every right to say "No". You asked him. He doesn't understand ambiguity and adult social politeness. If you then make him pick it up it undermines his power and is confusing to him. Giving kids choices and asking them their feelings and opinions is great but not when you are actually trying to give them a command but you feel uneasy making it direct. Most toddlers, given the chance, are going to take the contrary position. Don't open up the opportunity for a disagreement. Be respectful of his developmental stage and tell him rather then ask him when it is a command.

Not trying to be a know it all. This really works.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

At 2.5 I handled not picking up objects about the same way as not changing her own diaper (or the cases of the one that pl'd before 2, not wiping her own bottom).

I did it.

To lighten myself up, I did say "Gravity! Works every time!" each time she did it.

They are 8 and 4 now. They pick up things they drop or knock off somewhere just fine.

And when they do drop something, they often say "Gravity! Works every time!"


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

"I like toys to be put in their bin"
"garbage belongs in the garbage can"
"dishes belong in the sink"
"would you like to clean it up yourself, or should I help you?"

we would use the clean up song.

and if all else fails, I clean it up, since I'm the one who wants it cleaned up. At the same time, since I don't want a lot of toys to clean up, I only allow a few toys "out" at a time.

My kids generally help clean up or clean up after themselves - my DS1 recently went through a phase where he would not put anything in the garbage or sink or clean up. I didn't make a big deal out of it. It lasted about 2 weeks now he is back to being tidy.

I say
"you put the garbage where it belongs - in the trash!"
"thank you for putting your plate in the sink where it belongs!"
"When you clean up and take care of your things, it shows me you like having things of your own"

I think since we started young that has helped (using the clean up song). my kids are awesome about cleaning up after themselves - but at the end of the day I don't even ask their help, I just do it (too much going on) and my son takes initiative to help which I appreciate. My DD more takes initiative towards throwing out trash and putting dishes in the sink (even for other people) we pitch in together to keep the house clean, we help each other a lot.

we have 1 rule though - I don't take any new toys out of the closet until the other toys are cleaned up. If they show me they can be responsible about how many toys are out, I will increase the amount of toys that are "readily available" and if they show me that they can't "keep track" of so many toys, I will put less toys out. This is as much for them as for me


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

They do not get to eat their next meal until their things are picked up. It doesn't have to be done perfectly and the task generally takes 10 minutes or less. We tried the garbage thing first, but it didn't work, plus i wasn't willing to really throw out $200 worth of toys and if you don't keep your consequences...what's the point of them. So I just say, lunch should be ready in 30 minutes. Dd1, you need to pick up the kitchen stuff and dd2 you need to put your books away please. Lunch time comes, rarely do they have their things picked up so I sit down and begin to eat mine and that reminds them that they need to pick up their things.

I'm very matter of fact about it, don't get angry, etc. Some times one of them will tell me they don't want to pick up their toys, so I just say that's fine if you're not ready to pick up your toys. Let me know when you are and I'll fix a plate for you. Works every time.


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## kirstenb (Oct 4, 2007)

A lot of the time he'll pick up after telling him once or twice. If he doesn't do it after I ask, we'll pick it up together and put it where it belongs. If it is something like blocks where there are a ton, I will help him get them put away, since he is always distracted by something else before he finishes. In those instances where he doesn't want to put something away, I don't make a big deal of it and do it myself.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

If I tell them to pick it up, and they don't, I just say, "here, let me show you what to do" and then I take their hand and physically cause them to pick it up. Or I take them by the hand and put their hand on mine while I do it. Gently, you know, and I don't turn it into a power issue. Just "here, let me help you do it. There now, all clean. Thank you." No option to refuse.

Which is probably a bit more coercive than some people here would go for.









I'm not a big fan of "you have to do it before we can (insert activity here, like mealtime)" with toddlers, because in my experience my toddlers have a lot more staying power than I do when it comes to a struggle like that, and I wind up regretting having started a big struggle and then having to see it through even when I WAY tired of it. And by the time we finally get to the end of it, they've completely forgotten the point anyway. So I think a simple, matter-of-fact approach is better. I think the "x doesn't happen until y is finished" works beautifully with the 3 to 5 year old crowd, though.

I don't agree with just letting it go. I start teaching my kiddos to take some small responsibility for their own upkeep from a very early age, like as soon as they can crawl and understand simple words. But I try to just make it the standard of what's expected, rather than resorting to "consequences" to enforce it. I mean obviously sometimes you let it go, but I do think that kids can and should do some picking up after themselves as soon as they're able. If it's just what is expected, and things are always that way from the beginning, then there's no struggle later on when you try to introduce "helping." My 2 year olds started with putting their dirty clothes in a low hamper by themselves, when they were nine or ten months old, and we've added little "jobs" one at a time all along. They clear their place after dinner, help set the table, and put away a few toys before meals and at bedtime. And if they make a mess, they are expected to take some small role in cleaning up the mess, even if it's just sitting on my lap and watching me do it. (like when DS colored on the wall.)


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
They do not get to eat their next meal until their things are picked up. It doesn't have to be done perfectly and the task generally takes 10 minutes or less. We tried the garbage thing first, but it didn't work, plus i wasn't willing to really throw out $200 worth of toys and if you don't keep your consequences...what's the point of them. So I just say, lunch should be ready in 30 minutes. Dd1, you need to pick up the kitchen stuff and dd2 you need to put your books away please. Lunch time comes, rarely do they have their things picked up so I sit down and begin to eat mine and that reminds them that they need to pick up their things.

I'm very matter of fact about it, don't get angry, etc. Some times one of them will tell me they don't want to pick up their toys, so I just say that's fine if you're not ready to pick up your toys. Let me know when you are and I'll fix a plate for you. Works every time.

Withholding food until a one year old and a three year old comply doesn't feel like "gentle discipline" to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Withholding food until a one year old and a three year old comply doesn't feel like "gentle discipline" to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

I felt the same. Though I don't think she is doing it in a mean way, it just doesn't sit right with me, and seems like it would cause eating problems. I have always heard it's important to not tie food to discipline (such as the old popular method of going to bed without your dinner) I don't think Lisa's method is comparable to that, but I do gently suggest a re-evaluation of this approach... The way she put it though doesn't sound horrible IMO, but it did make me uneasy to read... something seems unsettling to me.


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## bright_eyes (Dec 7, 2007)

I've been wondering the same thing recently. One thing that I've found really helpful is to stop asking and start telling. So instead of "please can you pick up...", I just say "Please pick up...". I've switched to do this in any situation where I really don't want it to be a choice and I can't believe how much better ds listens now! If he doesn't do it, I try to make it fun (for example, we'll pretend to be excavators putting his toys in a dump truck). If he still isn't willing, then I usually let it go. I've also been saying to him that we need to pick up things to keep our house clean and how a clean house is nicer to live in than a dirty one. I say that cleaning ____ up will help to keep our house clean. He has been responding to that concept pretty well.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

I'm not so sure about the not letting them eat part. I can see how that could play out in a realistic way, though. I have a 7yo and a 5yo (big difference in abilities and attention span) and I watch some younger kids, too. yesterday I couldn't server lunch until the dinning room was picked up because I know the food would end up on the toys (it happens all the time). We literally couldn't eat until we cleared off the table and put the toys away and my kids didn't want to do it. You know, what? I'm the mom here, it's my responsibility to feed them and to a large extent clean up after them. I gave out very small tasks because these hungry kids didn't have the wherewithal to do larger jobs at that moment. The toys got put away without being a huge burden on me, and the kids got fed. I don't see a problem with that.

As for a 2.5 yo knocking stuff over intentionally I'd say your expectations are pretty high if you want him to pick it up every time, especially if he's angry when he does it. I'd cut him some slack at that age. I'd say something in a really surprised voice (to demonstrate that this is not the kind of attitude you attribute to him) like "oh [his name], let's not knock the cup off the counter! That's not where it goes! Look (point to where it was) this is where it's supposed to be. Now put it back, please." If he doesn't you can express something about how you feel when he does that, and how it takes you away from the important things you were doing before, and leave it at that. I wouldn't get into a power struggle stand off with a kid that age because putting him in the spot like that will probably only serve to make him not want to do it and prove his own will and personhood to you. 2 and 3 yos are surprisingly stubborn and patient.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

piggy backing off lunar's great advice I want to add, you may want to address the emotions first "you must be really mad/annoyed/frustrated" and when you feel they will actually hear you, then address the actions "let's put the cup back where it goes. we'll need a sponge to clean up that juice too"


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## tropicaldutchtulip (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Withholding food until a one year old and a three year old comply doesn't feel like "gentle discipline" to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

I also felt the same way.


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## kiwiva (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't request and I help make it happen. Sometimes that means I do it all, other times she helps. DD is almost 2.5. In the case of her throwing something allover bc she's mad (doesn't happen much) I'd say, "oh we don't throw all that stuff all over, let's pick that up" and I start picking it up.

I never threaten consequences, but I will remind that we aren't taking more toys out until we put away some of the ones we are no longer playing with (while beginning to put them away). She often follows my lead. At this age, I don't think you are setting them up for a bad habit of not picking up foreve if you don't force them to do it (unless you are telling them they have to do it and then doing it yourself as that's very inconsistent).

I read recently that toddlers are often wired to copy others behavior. So if you put a toy in their hand to put away, while you are putting away, they will often just start putting away toys. Won't work in a power struggle situation, of course!


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I've always (well,







almost always) approached this from the perspective that we now have a problem (there's a mess) and we're going to solve it together (clean up). When he is very eager to help clean up, then all I do is provide the appropriate towel, container, etc., and maybe a helpful instruction like, "Start from the edges." When he's less interested, then it's, "Here's a towel for you and a towel for me. We'll scoop it up and put it in this milk carton, like this." There was a stage from about 2.5 to 3 when he usually would just stand there watching me, or he'd make the most minimal effort toward helping and mainly just smear it around, or he'd angrily leap into making the mess worse and keeping me from cleaning. Those first two behaviors I'd just ignore and keep talking instructively about how we clean up this type of mess. But when he was making it worse, I'd take him out of the room, hold him, explain that I did not like the mess and did not want it made worse, and then help him calm down.

You mentioned that some of these messes are accidental. When YOU spill something by accident, you probably feel a sense of responsibility for cleanup, but don't you sometimes wish you didn't have to do it because it's not really your fault, and isn't it nice if someone decides to help you? Try to respond to spills you're pretty sure were accidental with sympathy and helpfulness. Don't leap to clean it all up yourself, but try not to act angry or expect him to do it all himself.

As other posters said, don't ASK him to clean up. State the problem and then TELL him what to do: "The juice spilled all over the counter! Wipe it up with this towel." You can put "please" on the end, but don't phrase it as a question or use a tentative, questioning tone, because that makes it sound like his cooperation is optional.

I don't understand why you're holding him in your lap. What do you think is going on in his mind then? I think you're expecting a bit too much for his age if you expect him to clean up by himself every time. Doing it together probably will work better.

His dad sending him to his room is unlikely to be effective, for a bunch of reasons:
1. It's not logically connected to his behavior. To an adult, the idea is, "If you can't behave properly, you can't be around people, so you'll have to be alone until you're ready to behave." But the way children learn to behave is by being around people and imitating what we do, and being rejected and isolated is so upsetting for most young children that the memory of their specific misbehavior will be overwhelmed by their sadness and anxiety. I've sent my child out of the room only rarely and only for behaviors that truly are harming people (like persistent hitting or really obnoxious interrupting of an important conversation), not just for any misbehavior.
2. Do you want him to think of his own room as a bad place to be? This may cause trouble at bedtime.
3. "Do you want to go to your room? Go to your room!" is the same question-that's-not-a-question issue as above: Why ask, when you really mean to give an order? It's just confusing.

When my son makes a mess on purpose, whether by scattering toys everywhere as he plays or by angrily dumping a container, I often use "when...then" phrasing to explain what I want him to do: "When all the blocks are back in the bag, then I will read you a story." This is particularly effective if he's asking me to do something that's optional (entertain him in some way, give him a cookie, let him watch TV) and I feel irritated by his demands because he's made such a mess and seems to me to be acting "spoiled". If he then refuses to clean up, I can get on with doing my own things and often accomplish quite a bit rather than spending my time doing stuff for him; if he does clean up, then I feel happier with him and more willing to do stuff for him.







I often have to repeat my "when...then" 217 times in my best firm-but-patient mother voice, while trying to do chores as a whining child follows me around, but often it does work. If it doesn't: "You did not pick up the blocks. If I have to pick up the blocks, I will not have time to read you a story." and then I have to stick to it.

I don't withhold food, but I'll sometimes withhold a treat he's requested: "If you're hungry, you may have oatmeal or an orange." If he's got food and is making a mess with it instead of eating it, I'll take it away: "I see you're not hungry. Pumpkin does not belong on the tablecloth. When you are ready to eat it, then you may have it back."


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Withholding food until a one year old and a three year old comply doesn't feel like "gentle discipline" to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

Sig is wrong, they are now 3.5 and 2 if that makes a difference. I give them plenty of warning and am very consistent. Their area must be picked up within reason before they sit down to eat. It's the same rule for the whole family. My mess generally includes something on the dining table or a basket of laundry that needs to be put away. Dh if he's home takes out the trash or will help the girls straighten the livingroom. It doesn't need to be perfect, and I don't think it's unreasonable to give a 2 or 3yo 30 minutes to complete a 10 minute or less task.

It's not tieing food to punishment any more than giving ample time to eat breakfast and if they choose not to eat breakfast before it's time to go in the morning, their out of luck until snack/lunch.

I had the same rule in daycare growing up (in home). We sang a clean up song and lunch was not served until the mess we made was cleaned up. She never yelled at us, would point things out nicely if we forgot something, and would occasionally help us if it was really bad. At home the scenario was quite different. Lots of yelling, demanding, screaming and throwing if we didn't clean up fast enough, well enough, or the right way. I have A LOT of built up resentment towards my parents for that. I have zero problems with food. They are never denied food, I would never say "YOu didn't pick up xyz so now you don't anything for lunch." I just remind them, that lunch is ready and they may have it as soon as they help the family get the house in order. At 2, I think kids are plenty capable of picking up most messes that they make. I also ensure they don't make a bigger mess than they can handle.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Honestly, I think it's dangerous territory to make food conditional on some behavior.

I don't think it's a question of capability or not. Kids go through lots of phases and some kids are naturally more able to physically order their world than other.

I worked in a daycare/preschool when I was younger. I didn't implement any of the routines we used there in my care of my children because I don't want my home to feel like an "institution."

I want home to be hearth and safety for my kids. I want to care for our home together. When they were that young, I modeled. Now I ask for help when I need it.

I am working to make our physical space more organized to make it even easier for them to participate...but we make big, beautiful, many days out messes in our learning. And my 8 and 4 year old cook, clean, build, sew, felt and garden alongside us.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 

It's not tieing food to punishment any more than giving ample time to eat breakfast and if they choose not to eat breakfast before it's time to go in the morning, their out of luck until snack/lunch.

I disagree. I understand you are doing what works for you so I respect that, but I do gently suggest you mull it over a little bit and perhaps look a little bit more into what you are doing or look at it from other points of view. I'm sure there is a way you can get the house tidy before mealtime without tying the two together


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I disagree. I understand you are doing what works for you so I respect that, but I do gently suggest you mull it over a little bit and perhaps look a little bit more into what you are doing or look at it from other points of view. I'm sure there is a way you can get the house tidy before mealtime without tying the two together









yeah, that.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 

I want home to be hearth and safety for my kids. I want to care for our home together. When they were that young, I modeled. Now I ask for help when I need it.

I am working to make our physical space more organized to make it even easier for them to participate...but we make big, beautiful, many days out messes in our learning. And my 8 and 4 year old cook, clean, build, sew, felt and garden alongside us.

I agree 100%. There are days dh comes home and asks WHAT did you DO today becuase the house is that bad. (he's not mad or upset, more like you must have had a lot of fun because the house is a wreck). They are welcome to help with any household tasks they like, but that also means helping with clean up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
I disagree. I understand you are doing what works for you so I respect that, but I do gently suggest you mull it over a little bit and perhaps look a little bit more into what you are doing or look at it from other points of view. I'm sure there is a way you can get the house tidy before mealtime without tying the two together









Do you have any other suggestions, then? We've tried just about everything and quite frankly, none of it worked.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

"Firstly, never deny a child of food to discipline them. Unless it's a frivolous snack like a candy but remember to replace it with a piece of fruit. Using food as reinforcement is okay but do this sparingly or the effect will be lost. Children need to know that you love them and will care for their needs, even when they're being disciplined." (or in your case, even if they don't pick up their toys)

http://www.helium.com/items/69715-di...control-of-you
(not the best article, but first one I could find to address the food issue)

I don't know what advice I can offer to someone who has "tried everything and nothing works" - are you really open to try other things? are you willing to send the message that when all else fails you will threaten to deprive them of a basic necessity? is it THAT important that the toys get cleaned up that you would withhold FOOD from your children? Heck, even murders get 3 square meals a day in jail.

(I guess this boils down to, if they didn't respond to your "motivation" for them to clean up, would they not get to eat? will they only get to eat if they clean up? what if they refuse to clean up for multiple days? (i realize they have not tested you on this - but could you remain "consistent" if they did? will their need for food still be met? do they know this? (im sure we would all like to assume they would, but perhaps they do not and that is why this is "working" for you - they believe they really dont get to EAT if they dont clean!) if they know you will meet their need for food even if they ultimately didn't clean then it would be a frivolous threat, then why could you not say "time to clean up!" why does it have to be "clean first, THEN I will "allow" you to eat"


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## Ophelia (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks for the additional insight! I need the ideas. Just yesterday he said NO a lot and was refusing to do things at daycare (one of them was to help cleanup). So I told daycare I would check into it. I know he still might not feel good as he's just starting to get over a nasty cold/ear infection/teething that lasted over 2 weeks and he's still hardly eating anything, but acting a lot better.

I'll reply to a few things:

Quote:

If you say "Will you please pick up your______?" He has every right to say "No". You asked him.
I think sometimes I phrase it as a question and sometimes I phrase it as a request. i'll have to pay more attention to what I'm saying.

Quote:

If he doesn't do it after I ask, we'll pick it up together and put it where it belongs. If it is something like blocks where there are a ton, I will help him get them put away, since he is always distracted by something else before he finishes. In those instances where he doesn't want to put something away, I don't make a big deal of it and do it myself.
We do quite a few pick-ups together especially if it's a lot of things like crayons or something.

Quote:

If I tell them to pick it up, and they don't, I just say, "here, let me show you what to do" and then I take their hand and physically cause them to pick it up. Or I take them by the hand and put their hand on mine while I do it. Gently, you know, and I don't turn it into a power issue. Just "here, let me help you do it. There now, all clean. Thank you." No option to refuse.
Good idea I will try that.

Quote:

As for a 2.5 yo knocking stuff over intentionally I'd say your expectations are pretty high if you want him to pick it up every time, especially if he's angry when he does it. I'd cut him some slack at that age. I'd say something in a really surprised voice (to demonstrate that this is not the kind of attitude you attribute to him) like "oh [his name], let's not knock the cup off the counter! That's not where it goes! Look (point to where it was) this is where it's supposed to be. Now put it back, please." If he doesn't you can express something about how you feel when he does that, and how it takes you away from the important things you were doing before, and leave it at that.
Good to know and I will very much try and get into the habit cutting him some slack and see if that relaxes things. At times I have asked him why he is upset and sometimes he says why and sometimes he doesn't but I do try to empathize with him. I'll remember to do it more if he's obviously mad about something.

Quote:

I read recently that toddlers are often wired to copy others behavior. So if you put a toy in their hand to put away, while you are putting away, they will often just start putting away toys.
He is definitely a copier. I will find out if all kids put toys away at the same time at daycare.

Quote:

I don't understand why you're holding him in your lap. What do you think is going on in his mind then? I think you're expecting a bit too much for his age if you expect him to clean up by himself every time. Doing it together probably will work better.
I'm not sure why either, just didn't know what else to do









Quote:

His dad sending him to his room is unlikely to be effective, for a bunch of reasons:
1. It's not logically connected to his behavior. To an adult, the idea is, "If you can't behave properly, you can't be around people, so you'll have to be alone until you're ready to behave."
2. Do you want him to think of his own room as a bad place to be? This may cause trouble at bedtime.
I have tried telling DH that, but he doesn't care and continues to _threaten_ DS with it







I asked DH if he was sent to his room when he was little and he said no, he voluntarily went to his room himself (!). I even told him that I don't want DS to view bedroom as a punishment. He has sent him there quite a few times now, and I have found DS in the room by himself with the door shut and crying. DH claims it works because DS will then come out of the room and cooperate. I have cancelled/not gone to things because I am afraid of it happening more and more when I am gone. It bothers me extremely but I don't know what I can do about it as DH will not listen to me, he once asked me if I had a better idea and at the time I did not (still do not know what to do sometimes) so he continues to do it.

I have read here that you are not supposed to interfere with the other parent's discipline while it's happening because then they feel like you are undermining their authority, so I just sit there feeling horrible for DS and feeling like my hands are tied.

Sometimes DH is real good at being gentle and calming DS down and other times he does the above.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
"Firstly, never deny a child of food to discipline them. Unless it's a frivolous snack like a candy but remember to replace it with a piece of fruit. Using food as reinforcement is okay but do this sparingly or the effect will be lost. Children need to know that you love them and will care for their needs, even when they're being disciplined." (or in your case, even if they don't pick up their toys)

http://www.helium.com/items/69715-di...control-of-you
(not the best article, but first one I could find to address the food issue)

Um yeah, to sum it up, that article is not very credible at all. If you have a peer reviewed study or something, I'd take that into consideration.

I don't know what advice I can offer to someone who has "tried everything and nothing works" - are you really open to try other things? are you willing to send the message that when all else fails you will threaten to deprive them of a basic necessity? is it THAT important that the toys get cleaned up that you would withhold FOOD from your children? Heck, even murders get 3 square meals a day in jail.

(I guess this boils down to, if they didn't respond to your "motivation" for them to clean up, would they not get to eat? will they only get to eat if they clean up? what if they refuse to clean up for multiple days? (i realize they have not tested you on this - but could you remain "consistent" if they did? will their need for food still be met? do they know this? (im sure we would all like to assume they would, but perhaps they do not and that is why this is "working" for you - they believe they really dont get to EAT if they dont clean!) if they know you will meet their need for food even if they ultimately didn't clean then it would be a frivolous threat, then why could you not say "time to clean up!" why does it have to be "clean first, THEN I will "allow" you to eat"[/QUOTE]

It works because I know they won't skip a meal. If they were so stubborn that they'd refuse to pick up toys in lieu of eating for multiple days or even meals, then I never would have even tried it because it wouldn't 'work'. Sure eventually it would work barring texture/food issues, but it would not be my definition of work. The first day, dd1 refused for about 20 minutes before complying. Dd2 didn't protest at all and still rarely does. Like I said, they are given plenty of ample to time to finish whatever they're doing and clean it up with time to spare.

I'm willing to try other things if they are ones I have not already tried or done in a way I haven't done and there's a good reason to change tactics. I'm sure I haven't tried everything (nor did i say that I had) but I've tried everything else I'd be willing to do that I could think of.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

IDK I just think its a dangerous message to send to a child. I urge you to reconsider. thats all I can really say. Yes, it wasn't a good article I posted. I've read this information time and time again in print - its like one of the big red flags and I am really surprised to hear someone on this forum not seeing it as that way. You know they wont skip a meal, they know they wont skip a meal, but they are also learning that a clean house is more important to their mom then their basic need for food being met. Slippery slope. I will try to find a better study for you since this really concerns me, but in the end you will do what you feel is best for your family and thats okay. They are your kids after all









for me what it comes down to is if I had to clean it up myself I'd be willing to do that before I would deny my child a meal.

Also toys and food are not related. It's not a reasonable consequence. I could understand putting the toys up for a day that don't get picked up. I guess you tried that and don't do it because it didnt get them to "do what you want"... you are looking for "Effective" but the consequence is not logical its punitive. So they didnt like your other consequence? you'll find a way to make them want to listen to you! you'll take away a basic need if you have to! it's just not healthy, and I am saying this from a place of concern not judgement. So I will try to find information that is suitable for you, beyond that I guess there is nothing I can do for you and your children. I can make suggestions - but you may have already tried them or may not be willing to try them, thats tough... I just think when it comes down to something like cleaning up toys that you can use a logical consequence even if they don't seem to respond right away to it.

What do you want? a clean house at meal times. well, if their toys are ut up for a day every time you dont clean up you would get a clean house every other day. and it might take a while but they would probably with time prefer to have their toys and clean them up.

You can say "when you don't clean up your toys it shows me you don't care about them. I'm going to put them away for a day, then we can try owning and caring for them again"

I don't see it as worth it to do something that is dangerous in other ways just to get them to "obey". maybe they really don't care about their toys. maybe their toys will end up staying in the closet. maybe they would rather not have toys then clean them up. that would be a connected consequence for their actions. not all consequences have to be super upsetting. no consequences should be detrimental.

Perhaps someone who is better with words can explain what I am doing a poor job of explaining.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

here are a few more articles, **** lahvent really found what you deem acceptable though, aside from sharing some common sense and reason.

"Under no circumstances will children be humiliated, neglected, isolated, spoken to in a harsh manner, deprived of food or other basic needs, slapped or spanked."

http://www.familychildcare.ca/policies.htm

". In disciplining a child, methods that interfere with a child's basic needs must not be used.
These include but are not limited to the following:
a. Depriving the child of sleep;
b. *Providing inadequate food*, clothing, living space or shelter;
c. Restricting a child's breathing;
d. Interfering with a child's ability to take care of their own hygiene and toilet needs;
e. Providing inadequate medical or dental care; or
f. Depriving a child of necessary services"

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

"Neglect is taken to mean the gross and habitual neglect of children by parents and responsible authorities, not just the absence of physical amenities due to poverty in the family. *Neglect can mean depriving children of emotional support and attention, as well as depriving them of the material necessities of life*. "
"By neglect we mean the failure of parents or guardians to provide what they could be expected to provide in terms of food, clothing, medical care, and general support."
http://www.micsem.org/pubs/counselor.../abusnegfr.htm

(none of these directly apply to your situation - I am looking for the information they must have based these opinions on though for you - loooking for why they feel withholding food as punishment is considered as abusive or neglectful - not that I think it is in the way YOU are doing it, but I think overall its a dangerous approach so I'm trying to help you


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

more on withholding food:

"Punishment is defined as imposing external controls by force on children to change their behavior. It includes:

* Inflicting pain, such as by spanking, slapping, or hitting
* *Imposing suffering, for example by withholding food*
* Enforcing penalties that are not related to the unacceptable behavior, such as a week of grounding for spilling a glass of milk
* Personal or emotional attacks like name-calling, ridicule, and insults"

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/ca/fosterpare...scpun/dp02.htm

this article is for helping overweight kids feel better about themselves, though I think the advice would also be good in helping typical children not feel bad about themselves:
"7. Model the lifestyle you'd like your children to mimic. Despite our national obsession with celebrities, children watch their parents, teachers and care providers most closely. Children want and expect adults to set limits. No matter how savvy the advertisements, just say "no" to junk foods and soft drinks and be consistent about your decisions to provide the best for your family. *Avoid dieting or withholding food as punishment, and keep maltimes pleasant and relaxed.* Enjoy being physically active, also known as "play," together."

http://www.foodandsocietyfellows.org...fm?refID=99741


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I have to go for the night, but I hope someone else is able to find some better articles and information for you, and perhaps offer more clear insight then what I was able to provide.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 

It's not tieing food to punishment any more than giving ample time to eat breakfast and if they choose not to eat breakfast before it's time to go in the morning, their out of luck until snack/lunch.

touching back on this because I want to explain the difference.

When you say "here is a meal, no strings attached, you have all this time to eat it, but if you aren't hungry or don't want to eat it then you can eat at our next meal/snack time" is not the same as "this meal has strings attached. you only get a chance to eat it if you clean up first. _if_ you clean up _then_ I will meet your basic need for food"

in the first scenario the mother is meeting the basic need because it is a basic need - the child is then choosing to accept having this need met.

in the second scenario, the child has to choose to follow mother's orders, to meet a "standard" of deserving to have a basic need met. They have to "earn" their right to a meal - a meal that is a basic need and should be given with no strings attached.

I think you are confusing the two as being a comparable because in both situations the child has a choice. The choice is not comparable though. In situation 1 the child has a choice to eat their food or leave it. In situation 2 the child is given an ultimatum that will determine whether or not they get a chance to be in situation 1.

Ultimately as parents we should meet our children's basic needs with no strings attached. A better choice about meal time would be "would you like to clean up your toys before dinner, or after dinner" if you are looking for a consequence for not cleaning up toys, you should relate it to the toys.

in scenario 1 the consequence of choosing not to eat breakfast is waiting until the next meal. (associating food with meals) in scenario 2 the consequence of choosing not to pick up toys is forfeiting or postponing the meal (associating behavior/toys/clean up with meals) those things are not related. It's a punishment, not discipline.

Your job as a parent is to meet basic needs - such as meals. This part of the job should not be "conditional".


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 

What do you want? a clean house at meal times. well, if their toys are ut up for a day every time you dont clean up you would get a clean house every other day. and it might take a while but they would probably with time prefer to have their toys and clean them up.


This is what I was going to suggest. Tell the kids they can clean up their toys or you can do it. If you have to do it, the toys will become yours for a designated amount of time (you don't have to go all the way to tossing them, just keep them for a day or two). If they do it, they keep the toys. It only take me threatening to take ONE toy away to get my DS moving. I think this would be a lot more logical than denying them lunch. I don't like to tie any behaviors to food. That just seems like a recipe for disaster to me.


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## eirual (Mar 21, 2006)

Just today with DS (who I feel hasn't cleaned up after himself in quite some time) I decided to take a playful twist to the situation after DH had asked him once to pick up and he was pretty much non-responsive. I said "Oh, I'm the pick-up police and you better get those toys off the floor before you're in big trouble Mister!" in a clear mockery of a voice and he said "a-la Mommy and Hunter!" (which is what we say to come out of whatever characters we're being that minute) and I asked him sweetly in my regular voice "Honey, could you pick up your toys please?" and he said "okay!"

Perhaps a playful strategy might help?


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
This is what I was going to suggest. Tell the kids they can clean up their toys or you can do it. If you have to do it, the toys will become yours for a designated amount of time (you don't have to go all the way to tossing them, just keep them for a day or two). If they do it, they keep the toys. It only take me threatening to take ONE toy away to get my DS moving. I think this would be a lot more logical than denying them lunch. I don't like to tie any behaviors to food. That just seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

I have tried that. It worked well the first time, kinda sorta the few times after that. Now she just hands me the garbage bag and says, "here, you can do it mama."

I realize not getting lunch right when you want it isn't a completely natural or related consequence to picking up toys and I'm ok with that. The end result is still the same. I don't believe you have to use natural consequences 100% of the time to use GD. Natural consequences are great when you dc cares about the consequence, such as not wearing a coat when it's 20 degrees outside. However, they just don't seem to care at the time that I put away their toys. They do care the next day, but it doesn't make a difference. Toys are still strewn all over the place and I'm the one left to pick them up.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
here are a few more articles, **** lahvent really found what you deem acceptable though, aside from sharing some common sense and reason.

"Under no circumstances will children be humiliated, neglected, isolated, spoken to in a harsh manner, deprived of food or other basic needs, slapped or spanked."

http://www.familychildcare.ca/policies.htm

". In disciplining a child, methods that interfere with a child's basic needs must not be used.
These include but are not limited to the following:
a. Depriving the child of sleep;
b. *Providing inadequate food*, clothing, living space or shelter;
c. Restricting a child's breathing;
d. Interfering with a child's ability to take care of their own hygiene and toilet needs;
e. Providing inadequate medical or dental care; or
f. Depriving a child of necessary services"

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

"Neglect is taken to mean the gross and habitual neglect of children by parents and responsible authorities, not just the absence of physical amenities due to poverty in the family. *Neglect can mean depriving children of emotional support and attention, as well as depriving them of the material necessities of life*. "
"By neglect we mean the failure of parents or guardians to provide what they could be expected to provide in terms of food, clothing, medical care, and general support."
http://www.micsem.org/pubs/counselor.../abusnegfr.htm

(none of these directly apply to your situation - I am looking for the information they must have based these opinions on though for you - loooking for why they feel withholding food as punishment is considered as abusive or neglectful - not that I think it is in the way YOU are doing it, but I think overall its a dangerous approach so I'm trying to help you









Those quotes all refer to neglect. It isn't neglect to have your child do a 10 minute task before eating.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
more on withholding food:

"Punishment is defined as imposing external controls by force on children to change their behavior. It includes:

* Inflicting pain, such as by spanking, slapping, or hitting
* *Imposing suffering, for example by withholding food*
* Enforcing penalties that are not related to the unacceptable behavior, such as a week of grounding for spilling a glass of milk
* Personal or emotional attacks like name-calling, ridicule, and insults"

http://www.dshs.wa.gov/ca/fosterpare...scpun/dp02.htm

this article is for helping overweight kids feel better about themselves, though I think the advice would also be good in helping typical children not feel bad about themselves:
"7. Model the lifestyle you'd like your children to mimic. Despite our national obsession with celebrities, children watch their parents, teachers and care providers most closely. Children want and expect adults to set limits. No matter how savvy the advertisements, just say "no" to junk foods and soft drinks and be consistent about your decisions to provide the best for your family. *Avoid dieting or withholding food as punishment, and keep maltimes pleasant and relaxed.* Enjoy being physically active, also known as "play," together."

http://www.foodandsocietyfellows.org...fm?refID=99741

Perhaps this is where we disagree. If I said "dd1, you forgot to put your shoes by the door, so now you don't get to eat lunch" that would be a punishment. I would not call "Dd1, lunch will be ready in x minutes, what do you think you should do about your shoes?" a punishment.



Super Glue Mommy said:


> touching back on this because I want to explain the difference.
> 
> When you say "here is a meal, no strings attached, you have all this time to eat it, but if you aren't hungry or don't want to eat it then you can eat at our next meal/snack time" is not the same as "this meal has strings attached. you only get a chance to eat it if you clean up first. _if_ you clean up _then_ I will meet your basic need for food"
> 
> ...


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

we will just have to (sadly) agree to disagree.

you feel that ALL consequences HAVE to get your child to do what you want. I feel that sometimes in life people just really don't care about consequences to their actions. The message you are sending is A BASIC NEED will not be met unless you do something I tell you to. Maybe some things in life has strings attached - but even the homeless and criminals can get free meals for free... its a basic need. No, what you are doing in this situation is not gentle discipline, You may want to continue to do it but I don't agree with it being suggested to other mama's on the board as a gentle discipline tactic as it is not and is a very dangerous approach. Toys being put away is NOT basic need. Yes, kids thrive in an organized house, I'm not arguing with you there, but WITHHOLDING FOOD?! FOR PICKIGN UP TOYS?! ugh, I am just surprised to read this on mothering.com what a very dangerous message to send to a child.

"the rules are that you must at least have underwear on(), be sitting down in your chair, no more than one person per chair, and no throwing of utensils, food, etc. Any of the above after one warning, and the meal has ended."

no sitting down in chair - can't stay at the table - understandable
throwing utensils - utensils get take away - understandable
only one person in the chair - lose chair priveledge - understandable
wearing underwear to the table - for me this would have nothing to do with a meal, if it was unacceptable to have a naked toddler in the house (which for me its not, but lets say my children are older then) then the rule would be they can't come out of their room or bathrooom until dressed - it would NOT be tied directly to the meal. It's like you know your kids see food as such an important need that its something you can use to control them. Controlling a person with food should not seem like a good idea.

You are comparing reasons to "end the meal" (meaning they have been given a chance to eat it and probably weren't hungry) to having a reason not to "begin the meal" (meaning they are probably hungry or have learned that food is a need that is only met conditionallly in your home and so they fear not getting it for some reason in the future and will do whatever you say to make sure they get THAT meal)

there is not one example you gave that is withholding a meal. all the examples you gave are parents ending meal time. Examples where a child has had a plate of food in front of them and to eat what they were hungry enough to eat off of it during that meal time.

Having to do XYZ (especially something so frivolous! to think the damage being done over them cleaning up toys that you admit they don't even really care for as they don't miss them when you take them away for a few days - its all about YOU) before you allow a meal is NOT the same thing.

A parent should think about what they want from their children when they aren't around anymore. Do they want them to always deny their own NEEDS to meet someone elses WANTS? Or do they want a child who desires to help others but will see their needs as important?

You never answered what you would do if they kept refusing to clean up. They must really believe you wouldn't give them food in that case. The thing is with kids its our job to come up with a reasonable consequence. Sometimes they just won't care. And sometimes you can think up other solutions that are reasonable but its not okay to get unreasonable because you can't control them with reasonable ways. Like when a parent who spanks and their child doesnt seem to care - they spank more and they spank harder until it turns into abuse. Not that it was every a good consequence to begin with but my point is that we are supposed to be trying to discipline our children not get even with them and punish them into obedience.

This is the gentle discipline board. what you suggested to the OP is not gentle discipline. It's punishment. its withholding a basic need. making a basic need contingent on something that is unrelated and unreasonable. One of the basic of GD is relating the consequence to the actions. to keep them reasonable. not cleaning up toys deserves a meal to be withheld? thats unreasonable/severe. its a punishment not a consequence. I am not saying you don't practice GD, as I think you do - but in this situation you are using punishment. I hope even fi you dont take in what I am saying now that it stays in your mind and eventually find a way to your heart that you will find another way.

I can understand certain things needing to be done before a meal though. I would see nothing wrong with "After the toys are cleaned up we'll have lunch" more so what bothers me is "no lunch until you clean up your toys" I could see myself saying the former. (I have said - after I use the bathroom I'm making lunch. After playtime is lunch. after bath we'll have dinner. I have to do the dishes, then I can make dinner. etc) They would get lunch even if I had to clean them up though. The consequence for me having to clean them up would relate to the toys not mealtime. "Last chance to clean up your toys before lunch - lunch is in 10 minutes - if I clean them up they are mine until tomorrow! (or they are mine all day tomorrow)" but withholding the meal, no that crosses the line imo out of the realm of GD.

I wish there was a way I could help you but I just have to step back now because I realize you are insistant on this approach and its really upsetting to me to think about it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I haven't read the WHOLE thread though I did read much of it. I have a headache and I'm moving on now.

So what I did is to

1. Not present it as an alternative. Not, "Would you please pick up?" Not, "How about if we pick up?" Not even, "Hey, let's pick up now." I would say, "Time to pick up before we do anything else." And I'd start picking up and if she didn't help I'd watch expectantly. That really has great power. Just watching with an expectation that she's about to start.

2. Make it easy. I bought one bin for each kind of toy, and I'd bring bins out and let her just put each toy in the appropriate bin.

3. Get to it before it got too bad. Doens't look overwhelming.

4. Always pick up with her at that age, modeling what I want to happen. And, really, even if she's having a bad day I'd keep going. But that was rare.

5. Keep an upbeat attitude. Sing to myself as I picked up. Chat and be happy and friendly. I think this makes it seem as just part of life, and not a bad part, rather than a chore.

Now, she picks up really well. But toddlers are by their nature going to be inconsistent. You have to look at this in the long term. If you keep up with your expectations and keep upbeat, it should become a habit. But no toddler is going to be good at picking up, or even helping, on a regular basis. And that's normal, so I wouldn't stress.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
we will just have to (sadly) agree to disagree.

you feel that ALL consequences HAVE to get your child to do what you want. I feel that sometimes in life people just really don't care about consequences to their actions.

What's the point of a consequence if it doesn't work? If I'm imposing a consequence or disciplining my dc, then it had better make some difference otherwise we're all wasting our time. It doesn't need to work immediately, but if I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel then it's pretty much a waste, no?

Quote:

The message you are sending is A BASIC NEED will not be met unless you do something I tell you to.
As I said earlier, I had the same rule at the daycare I attended for years. I never once felt like that. The message I got was x before y and I see nothing wrong with that. I'm not asking them to do an impossible task or something developmentally inappropriate.

Quote:

No, what you are doing in this situation is not gentle discipline, You may want to continue to do it but I don't agree with it being suggested to other mama's on the board as a gentle discipline tactic as it is not and is a very dangerous approach. Toys being put away is NOT basic need. Yes, kids thrive in an organized house, I'm not arguing with you there, but WITHHOLDING FOOD?! FOR PICKIGN UP TOYS?! ugh, I am just surprised to read this on mothering.com what a very dangerous message to send to a child.
That's your opinion. I have mine. You can agree with it being gd or not. As a mom when you ask advice, you have to realize the advice you receive may or may not be something you would do. Take what want, leave the rest.
"the rules are that you must at least have underwear on(), be sitting down in your chair, no more than one person per chair, and no throwing of utensils, food, etc. Any of the above after one warning, and the meal has ended."

Quote:

wearing underwear to the table - for me this would have nothing to do with a meal, if it was unacceptable to have a naked toddler in the house (which for me its not, but lets say my children are older then) then the rule would be they can't come out of their room or bathrooom until dressed - it would NOT be tied directly to the meal.
*shrug* I don't see it as unreasonable to expect genitals to be covered when eating. dd2 in particular is prone to exploring down there. Fine by me, but I or anyone else don't need to see that when we're eating. Not to mention it's pretty nasty to touch yourself down there and then start eating finger foods. I don't have time to run kids to the sink to wash hands 20x during each meal.

Quote:

Having to do XYZ (especially something so frivolous! to think the damage being done over them cleaning up toys that you admit they don't even really care for as they don't miss them when you take them away for a few days - its all about YOU) before you allow a meal is NOT the same thing.
1. it's not frivolous to me, and 2. you have yet to show anything remotely credible that it's even possible. That's all in your own opinion. 3. It is basically the same thing to me. NOt exact, but basically.

Quote:

A parent should think about what they want from their children when they aren't around anymore. Do they want them to always deny their own NEEDS to meet someone elses WANTS? Or do they want a child who desires to help others but will see their needs as important?
Once again, this is merely your opinion. I sincerely doubt telling my kids a few days a week that we all clean up before we eat is going to teach them to deny their needs because somebody else wants them too.

Quote:

You never answered what you would do if they kept refusing to clean up.
Actually I did. I said that I know they won't skip a meal so it's for naught. If I had reason to believe that they were so strong willed and determined about it that they would absolutely refuse to clean up, I would try something else. In that case, this wouldn't work.

Quote:

And sometimes you can think up other solutions that are reasonable but its not okay to get unreasonable because you can't control them with reasonable ways.
Right, but who's saying it's unreasonable? Just you. Certainly not CPS, the AAP, Dr. Sears or any of those. An opinion that is held strongly is still not a fact.

Quote:

Like when a parent who spanks and their child doesnt seem to care - they spank more and they spank harder until it turns into abuse. Not that it was every a good consequence to begin with but my point is that we are supposed to be trying to discipline our children not get even with them and punish them into obedience.
Right, and that would be abuse. A non abusive parent would realize it isn't working and move on to something else. An abusive parent wouldn't which is why it's classified as abuse.

Quote:

I wish there was a way I could help you but I just have to step back now because I realize you are insistant on this approach and its really upsetting to me to think about it.
*shrug* I'm not really that insistent on it. But 1, it works, 2, there have not been other suggestions that I haven't already tried, and 3. you've failed to prove that it could do any of things you conjectured.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I know you feel like you don't have any evidence that withholding food until you get compliance can be harmful.

This might help. Most states do not allow this discipline approach in daycare. If you google: daycare meals discipline withholding it'll produce some article to read about it. If you add your state name you could find out if a daycare provider could legally do what you are doing now.

Another thing to think about, What are you going to do if one of your children just decides they would rather keep playing and not put away the toys and eat? What if not cleaning up becomes the place they decide to make their stand for independence? Will you feed them? Will you permit good family life and nurture to take a back seat to make your point?

Your kids are very very little now. I'm sure you'll be able to fix it when you get there. I think the folks here are compassionately trying to give you a heads up that this may take you somewhere you don't want to go.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

they have made what you are doing as something that is not allowed to be done in schools/daycares anymore. so maybe they let you in the past, but I would not send my child to a daycare that was doing something that we now know is dangerous and there are laws being made against allowing them to do that.

it;s not that its my opinion that its not GD. its not. Thats liek someone saying its their opinion that spanking is GD - it still wouldnt be GD just because it was their opinion it was.

so you are saying if they wouldn't clean up then you would let them eat? you only use food to manipoulate them before it works. one of your first points was mentioning how you are consistent. you are not willing to follow through on this consequence if they wont eat for days (which that at least I am thankful for!) but if they choose to turn this into a power struggle you will lose the consistency you are proud of. they may then in turn start using food to manipulate you - going on hunger strikes etc. now THAT is a theory, but withholding meals being dangerous overall is a fact. there are some things that are dangerous towards children and when you can't think of anything else that works you still don't do those things, you just keep thinking of new things. I wouldn't hit my kids just because nothing else worked same as I wouldn't withhold meals just because nothing else worked. Ultimately, yes we want the consequence to be effective, but we shouldnt be willing to use a dangerous consequence. There should come a time where we let go of the power struggled and clean up the toys ourselves if we have to - take them away if we have to even if that "doesnt" work. what is your goal? not to have toys to pick up before meal time? that goal can be accomplished by taking the toys away. sure, they may still chose to have their toys taken away instead of clean up - but the end result is you dont have toys to pick up and you dont want to pick up toys. to me what you are doing sounds like you are trying to win a power struggle with your children, and founf out that withholding a basic need would help you "win"

this sint your state - but just google daycare withholding meals - tons of info. here is one link:

http://www.ehow.com/about_4727793_in...-colorado.html

"*No form of physical or verbal punishment or discipline is permitted, including withholding meals.* Timeouts are allowable, and all permitted disciplinary techniques must be discussed with the child's parents."

AAP on withholding meals:
http://www.aap.org/publiced/BR_Discipline.htm

"#
Withholding privileges. In the heat of the moment, you will not always be able to think of a logical consequence. That is when you may want to tell your child that, if she does not cooperate, she will have to give something up she likes. The following are a few things to keep in mind when you use this technique:

*
*Never take away something your child truly needs, such as a meal.*
*
Choose something that your child values that is related to the misbehavior.
*
For children younger than 6 or 7 years of age, withholding privileges works best if done immediately following the problem behavior. For instance, if your young child misbehaves in the morning and you withhold television viewing for that evening, your child probably will not connect the behavior with the consequence.
*
Be sure you can follow through on your promise.

"


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
What's the point of a consequence if it doesn't work? If I'm imposing a consequence or disciplining my dc, then it had better make some difference otherwise we're all wasting our time. It doesn't need to work immediately, but if I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel then it's pretty much a waste, no?

As I said earlier, I had the same rule at the daycare I attended for years. I never once felt like that. The message I got was x before y and I see nothing wrong with that. I'm not asking them to do an impossible task or something developmentally inappropriate.

That's your opinion. I have mine. You can agree with it being gd or not. As a mom when you ask advice, you have to realize the advice you receive may or may not be something you would do. Take what want, leave the rest.
"the rules are that you must at least have underwear on(), be sitting down in your chair, no more than one person per chair, and no throwing of utensils, food, etc. Any of the above after one warning, and the meal has ended."

*shrug* I don't see it as unreasonable to expect genitals to be covered when eating. dd2 in particular is prone to exploring down there. Fine by me, but I or anyone else don't need to see that when we're eating. Not to mention it's pretty nasty to touch yourself down there and then start eating finger foods. I don't have time to run kids to the sink to wash hands 20x during each meal.

1. it's not frivolous to me, and 2. you have yet to show anything remotely credible that it's even possible. That's all in your own opinion. 3. It is basically the same thing to me. NOt exact, but basically.

Once again, this is merely your opinion. I sincerely doubt telling my kids a few days a week that we all clean up before we eat is going to teach them to deny their needs because somebody else wants them too.

Actually I did. I said that I know they won't skip a meal so it's for naught. If I had reason to believe that they were so strong willed and determined about it that they would absolutely refuse to clean up, I would try something else. In that case, this wouldn't work.

*Right, but who's saying it's unreasonable? Just you. Certainly not CPS, the AAP, Dr. Sears or any of those. An opinion that is held strongly is still not a fact.*

Right, and that would be abuse. A non abusive parent would realize it isn't working and move on to something else. An abusive parent wouldn't which is why it's classified as abuse.

*shrug* I'm not really that insistent on it. But 1, it works, 2, there have not been other suggestions that I haven't already tried, and 3. you've failed to prove that it could do any of things you conjectured.

Actually the AAP does say its unreasonable. link provided above.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 

*shrug* I'm not really that insistent on it. But 1, it works, 2, there have not been other suggestions that I haven't already tried, and 3. you've failed to prove that it could do any of things you conjectured.

I thought my suggestion was something you hadn't tried yet. It is on page 2.

I actually liked that AAp article, SuperGlueMommy. TFS!


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I just cant get over that its illegal to withhold a meal from a prisoner but anyone thinks its okay to do to a child. i am trying to find the laws on this, but I think even if I found the law in black and white it wouldnt make a difference.

thanks labdogs - i think what she meant (what she said in another post) is she tried everything she is WILLING to try that she has thought of. I know she hasn't tried my approach either.

YMCA rules for staff:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

"8. Staff shall not abuse children including:
- Physical abuse- to strike, spank, shake, and slap, *withhold food,* withhold healthcare"

im emailing dr sears too in hopes he will add a QandA to his website about this issue and provide some studies on tieing food to discipline.

I wrote him this:
"Is it okay to withhold a meal from a child for not cleaning up their toys, if you will give them their meal after they clean up? Is withholding a meal in this way still gentle discipline? Is there any evidence that there is harm in tying food to punishment?"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I see no way withholding food could possibly be seen as gentle discipline.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fv5...um=2&ct=result

page 188 first paragraph

"1. Discipline will not include withholding food, rest, or toilet use."
a preschool handbook:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

"Do not deprive your child of food, love, exercise, or other necessities to punish him."
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...g3.html?cat=25

written in *BIG* letters on this article
"When you take away food to
punish, you take away trust"

then this:
*What's the difference between punishment and discipline? Punishment
is seldom directly related to misbehavior and includes an action that
produces discomfort or pain.* In contrast, discipline teaches the child
acceptable behavior. *When punishment is linked with food, a dangerous
combination is created. A child depends on regular meals to know that she
will be fed and taken care of by adults. When parents take away food from
the child as a form of punishment, she begins to lose trust in her parents.*
Withholding food or water from a child does not teach the child how
to act properly. On the contrary, if a child is sent to bed without dinner, he
may focus on being hungry and not even think about the wrongdoing.
Discipline, however, allows the child to experience the consequences of his
own behavior. Excusing a child from the table because he is throwing food
teaches logical consequences: Food is not to be thrown and, if it is, the
child may not eat with the rest of the family but must eat alone.
Just as food nourishes the body, good training and teaching nourishes
the mind. When parents give a child consistent limits enforced by kind
firmness, the child will learn appropriate behaviors. Plan to use mealtime
as a time to build healthy family relationships
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a
(page 3)

maybe this will provide a better understanding of gentle discipline:
http://www.naturalparenting.com.au/f...n-the-path.cfm
http://www.llli.org/NB/NBMayJun05p94.html


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

withholding food is punishment, not discipline, and therefor, not gentle discipline.

more
"Discipline measures shall not include any of the following:
(e)
forcing or withholding of food, rest, or toileting;"

page 3
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

its not allowed in private schools, they arent even allowed to give SMALLER meals as discipline:
http://www.topix.com/forum/education...U3VH65H82R7KRK


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
withholding food is punishment, not discipline, and therefor, not gentle discipline.

Punishment is a kind of discipline, just not the only kind of discipline, and punishments can be done pretty gently. Time outs can be done in a pretty gentle way, but are punishment, for instance. But I don't see any way withholding food can be considered gentle. Even if you word it nicely, if the child knows that his/her ability to eat is contingent upon doing something, then that the threat of a physical punishment. Hunger is uncomfortable and in some cases painful for a growing child. It is not gentle.

I see you edited out that sentence, but I think this post is relevant to the thread as a whole so I'm going to keep it up.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Punishments do actually teach. Not always just what we intend, but they certainly teach something. They just IMO aren't a good choice as a way to teach.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

the difference between punishment and diciplsine
(just google that phrase and a million things op up)

these are some from the front page:

http://www.attachmentparenting.ca/ar.../articled1.htm

religious:
http://books.google.com/books?id=p-l...um=5&ct=result

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/nibbles...iscipline.html

http://ezinearticles.com/?Child-Disc...ment&id=142317

http://cehd.umn.edu/ceed/publication...discipline.htm

http://rixtillman.blogspot.com/2008/...hment-and.html

http://parenting.families.com/blog/d...-vs-punishment


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

For me, punishment and discipline are different things, but I can understand why you see some punishments as discipline.

we do not use any punishment in our family.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Okay, just to see what folks think:

I'm not in favor of witholding food until a child completes a desired activity. But what about "x doesn't happen until you y," when it doesn't involve food or some other basic necessity? Because I've found that to be really helpful with my 4 year old, and I'm wondering if I should rethink it. For example, "we can go outside when you put away your puzzles, and not until then," or "we can only read a story if you get your pjs on right now." Because the way I read it, that's sort of what lisa86 is doing, only food is her "y.". Is it the "no x until you y" aspect that is not okay, or is it just that she's using food as the "y?" I have even, on occasion, said to DD1 "if you want to eat dinner at the table with us, then you need to clean up your toys and come to the table now." If she doesn't clean up, she still gets her dinner, but she winds up having to eat most of it alone, when the rest of us are already finished and have moved on to other things. What do we think of that, for example?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I am aware that people who are opposed to punishment (and I'm one of those people) often like to try to change the meaning of the word "discipline" to suit them, but the word has a definition and that definition definitely includes both "teach" and "punish". In fact, "punishment" is the most common definition of discipline. Historically, "teach" was the primary meaning, but even then, punishment does teach, albeit not very effectively and it also teaches unintended lessons that can be harmful to the parent/child relationship.

Quote:

discipline
3 entries found.

1. 1discipline (noun)
2. 2discipline (transitive verb)
3. self-discipline

Main Entry:
1dis·ci·pline Listen to the pronunciation of 1discipline
Pronunciation:
\ˈdi-sə-plən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
Date:
13th century

*1: punishment*
2obsolete : instruction
3: a field of study
4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a: control gained by enforcing obedience or order b: orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c: self-control
6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity
- dis·ci·plin·al Listen to the pronunciation of disciplinal \-plə-nəl\ adjective

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
the difference between punishment and diciplsine
(just google that phrase and a million things op up)

these are some from the front page:

http://www.attachmentparenting.ca/ar.../articled1.htm

religious:
http://books.google.com/books?id=p-l...um=5&ct=result

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/nibbles...iscipline.html

http://ezinearticles.com/?Child-Disc...ment&id=142317

http://cehd.umn.edu/ceed/publication...discipline.htm

http://rixtillman.blogspot.com/2008/...hment-and.html

http://parenting.families.com/blog/d...-vs-punishment


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

"Some people may say "No, my child doesn't seem to learn". In answer, I can assure them that he may not have learned yet, and he will. When he is full-size, he will be close to behaving like an adult. He may not live up to all of his parents' expectations, instead he will live up to his own: to grow, to fulfill himself, to belong and to contribute. He will be uniquely himself."

http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/toddler.html

aPI - positive discipline article
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/disc.php


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
Okay, just to see what folks think:

I'm not in favor of witholding food until a child completes a desired activity. But what about "x doesn't happen until you y," when it doesn't involve food or some other basic necessity? Because I've found that to be really helpful with my 4 year old, and I'm wondering if I should rethink it. For example, "we can go outside when you put away your puzzles, and not until then," or "we can only read a story if you get your pjs on right now." Because the way I read it, that's sort of what lisa86 is doing, only food is her "y.". Is it the "no x until you y" aspect that is not okay, or is it just that she's using food as the "y?" I have even, on occasion, said to DD1 "if you want to eat dinner at the table with us, then you need to clean up your toys and come to the table now." If she doesn't clean up, she still gets her dinner, but she winds up having to eat most of it alone, when the rest of us are already finished and have moved on to other things. What do we think of that, for example?

That is punishment, however that is much, much more gentle than the use of food. Using food is not at all gentle. Withholding food can cause hunger, which is uncomfortable and can even be painful for children with as quickly as they grow, it can cause issues with food, and beyond that I just don't think it's gentle to threaten to take away any of the necessities of life.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
"Some people may say "No, my child doesn't seem to learn". In answer, I can assure them that he may not have learned yet, and he will. When he is full-size, he will be close to behaving like an adult. He may not live up to all of his parents' expectations, instead he will live up to his own: to grow, to fulfill himself, to belong and to contribute. He will be uniquely himself."

http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/toddler.html

aPI - positive discipline article
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/disc.php

I agree with that 100%. Just because a child doesn't learn something quickly, especially as young as a toddler, doesn't mean learning isn't going on. Keep on with the teaching and modeling and as the child sees it and grows and matures, he/she will learn. It just takes consistency and patience.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Llyra* 
Okay, just to see what folks think:

I'm not in favor of witholding food until a child completes a desired activity. But what about "x doesn't happen until you y," when it doesn't involve food or some other basic necessity? Because I've found that to be really helpful with my 4 year old, and I'm wondering if I should rethink it. For example, "we can go outside when you put away your puzzles, and not until then," or "we can only read a story if you get your pjs on right now." Because the way I read it, that's sort of what lisa86 is doing, only food is her "y.". Is it the "no x until you y" aspect that is not okay, or is it just that she's using food as the "y?" I have even, on occasion, said to DD1 "if you want to eat dinner at the table with us, then you need to clean up your toys and come to the table now." If she doesn't clean up, she still gets her dinner, but she winds up having to eat most of it alone, when the rest of us are already finished and have moved on to other things. What do we think of that, for example?

i personally don't mind no x until y as long as x isn't a basic need. If I were you I would give the option of clean up before dinner or clean up after dinner. I wouldn't say she can't join you until after she cleans up. I see nothing wrong with "we are having dinner now if you want to join us" and letting her keep playing with her toys if she wants and having dinner, I just wouldn't word it in such a way that she has to clean first before she can have dinner.

however speaking from experience, no x until y just results in power struggles. it would probably be better to say "do you want to clean up your toys or set the table before dinner?" (but not in the sense that she doesn't get dinner if she doesn't do either - just options on how she can help)

I will say to my son "after you get dressed we can go outside to play. I'm ready when you are!"

then there are cases such as morning "we can play after you finish getting ready" works much better then "we can't play until you are ready"

in these cases its semantics for some, but I just find it sets a different tone with my children, and moves from power struggle to cooperation.

now I also don't know what is behind the words you are saying about clean your toys and join us for dinner. while I wouldnt choose that wording I wouldnt see it as a bad thing if maybe an hour later shes really hungry and wants to eat before she picks up. if the meaning is more "you can join us for dinner or keep playing and eat alone later" or is the meaning "you cant join us for dinner if you don't clean up"

I like a clean house too, but I tend to go towards trying to gain cooperation then trying to gain control. I have said to my son "I need you to drink this before dinner" (because it has his digestive enzymes in it) however, I still serve dinner even if he doesn't drink it. I will however, not give him a new drink until he finishes that one.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i see it as punishment is not a part of discipline but discipline may be a part of punishment...

I do see punishment and discipline as different, however I think what is considered discipline by some (such as time outs) may be considered punishment by others.

but either way, i don't really use the word punishment lol.


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## Peppermintpatty (Mar 12, 2009)

OK, but what about this:

"You may join us at the dinner table once you've washed your hands". I say this every night to my 2.5 year old. I suppose technically it is "withholding food", but I think this is an entirely reasonable expectation (hygenic reasons) and hardly punitive.

I consider myself pretty GD and have read a lot of positive discipline theory. I just wanted to point out that sometimes there are shades of grey . . .

Thoughts?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

would you help your child wash their hands? (would you help your child pick up the toys)

I say "time to wash our hands! then its dinner time!" - my kids LOVE washing their hands so I guess its a non issue, but if it were an issue I would offer a choice "do you want to wash your hands or should I wash them?" "do you want to wash your hands in the sink, or use a wet wipe?"

at the same time, and maybe its because im not really overly put off by germs, I would let my child eat anyway. If there hands were really dirty, I'd probably make them a smoothie for a dinner instead so they couldn't get germs/bacteria on their food.

and ultimately, yes there are shades of grey - but withholding food for behavior (not picking up toys) is different then withhlding food for hygeine. and if you want to apply it to other hygenic chores such as dishes being done or table being wipes down - those are things the parent CAN do. same as the parent can pick up toys. If its THAT important it be done before a meal I will do. I don't let things stand in the way of basic needs being met. I will nurse my 9 month old even if he doesn't life my shirt himself. I will serve DD lunch even if she didn't wipe down the table for me. And I will give DS1 dinner even if he doesn't drink his digestive enzymes (which his behavior is SO much better then he takes them then when he doesn't, because it helps with traces of foods he is sensitive to - but I will risk my job being harder as a parent for my children's basic needs to be met.

Meeting basic needs is not a gray area _for me_.

welcome to the GD board peppermint, do you have another usename here on MDC? lol


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

I think there's a big difference between "withholding" and "delaying". I see nothing in any of the links provided which covers a 10 minute delay in providing food, and I have my doubts that the law would prosecute a 10 minute delay in the same as actual "withholding".


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

but its not just a 10 minute delay. the delay is (in her eyes) up to the child. it once took 30 minutes. the delay is "as long as it takes" which is withholding. the meal is contingent on cleaning up. If it was delaying, then the child would get the meal within 10 minutes even if they didn't clean up. If the child gets the meal in 10 minutes even if they don't clean up that would be delaying (if you clean up you can have dinner now, if not you can have the dinner in 10 minutes) that would be delaying - and imo still not sending a good message, however the message being sent is much worse - you will not get your meal _until_ you clean up. because her children comply to this, it is only a delay - but the message being SENT to the child is that of withholding - your meals are contingent on your obedience. And she never said it was only 10 minutes either - she said it was a 10 minute TASK - if the child takes 10 minutes to start that 10 minute task that is longer then 10 minutes. now, if her children comply right away they get their meal within the 10 minutes. a delay would be "I would like you to clean up before dinner. Dinner is in 10 minutes" but not "but you will not get dinner until you clean up" I do not see anything wrong with a child being hungry and having to wait a few minutes because something needs to be done (mom is wiping down the table, mom wants the toys picked up and has to pick them up herself if her kids dont making it take longer to get to meal time, etc - but to say you cant HAVE dinner UNTIL xyz (or whatever meal it is) is withholding.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I think there's a big difference between "withholding" and "delaying". I see nothing in any of the links provided which covers a 10 minute delay in providing food, and I have my doubts that the law would prosecute a 10 minute delay in the same as actual "withholding".

It's only a delay if the toys are actually picked up. What if the child flat-out refuses to pick up the toys? It isn't a delay then. The threat is that the child can't eat until AND unless he/she picks up the toys. That is about withdrawal of food.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Lisa85 wrote:

Quote:

What's the point of a consequence if it doesn't work? If I'm imposing a consequence or disciplining my dc, then it had better make some difference otherwise we're all wasting our time. It doesn't need to work immediately, but if I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel then it's pretty much a waste, no?
That tunnel is longer than you think, so improve your vision. There are many, many things that young children do not learn in a single incident; they require repetition to understand the relationship between their behavior and its consequence. If you think a consequence "doesn't work" because your TWO-year-old doesn't do the thing you want her to do THIS TIME, then you are not giving it a fair chance. She may need to not do the thing and thus experience the consequence, several times, before she gets it. For example, about taking away toys they have not picked up, you said:

Quote:

I have tried that. It worked well the first time, kinda sorta the few times after that. Now she just hands me the garbage bag and says, "here, you can do it mama."
...However, they just don't seem to care at the time that I put away their toys. They do care the next day, but it doesn't make a difference. Toys are still strewn all over the place and I'm the one left to pick them up.
You are not being consistent enough with this approach for them to learn. Take away the toys that are on the floor today and put them away out of reach. When they complain next day, remind them why the toys are gone. If they strew more toys and won't pick up, take away those toys too. Eventually there will be no more toys to strew. Then they'll experience the natural consequence of being careless with their toys day after day. You then explain the rules very clearly and ask which few toys they'd like to have a second chance with. Then either they pick up and you reward them by releasing more toys, or you take away the toys again.

If your child is handing you a garbage bag (you mean to THROW AWAY her toys?) and willing to let you take the toys, that does not mean taking away the toys won't work. If she really has so little interest in her toys that she's not motivated to pick them up to avoid losing them, then there is no need to keep those toys, and if you don't have the toys then you won't have to pick them up, will you?

I agree that if you are serious about withholding food from your children for hours if they don't do what you say, that's not remotely gentle discipline, and if you wouldn't really take it that far then it's a strategy that's going to backfire as soon as your kids decide to test it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I have removed some posts that were in violation of the MDC UA. Please try to keep this thread on topic for the OP.

Any further UA violations may result in the permanent removal of this thread.

If you have any questions, please PM heartmama or me.


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