# 5 year old not listening at school, either



## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

We've been struggling for a long time trying to teach DS (5) consequences and it just hasn't been working. We use as many natural and logical consequences as we can, but often there just isn't one. Now in preschool he is having so many issues that the teacher threatened to "talk to mom today" if he didn't knock it off. He didn't.

A lot of it is impulse control and I don't know how to help him with that. But he KNOWS the right thing and just chooses not to do it, and it's happening more frequently. Then when he gets in trouble for it (i.e., has to come inside b/c he couldn't play nicely outside), he cries and says we just want him to be in trouble. I can't seem to convince him that he's the one in control of his choices. He just can't hear us.

We've always tried to be understanding, but "Oh, he's only 2" has become "He's 5 -- WHEN is he going to get it?" We are very consistent with our rules (and there aren't many) and timeouts have never worked, even though he gets one every time he needs to be separated from the action. The cooling down/thinking time just doesn't cut it for him. He sees it as a punishment, does the "time" and goes back to his old tricks, even though I have always told him it's time to calm down/think about better choices/etc.

What am I doing wrong? It used to be only a problem here at home, but now it's at school too. He did well for awhile with sticker charts, but I put a stop to that, b/c he proved he knows how to behave and shouldn't need a bribe to do what he knows is right. I don't get paid for being a good person, and neither should he.


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

Children do well if they can , they are not choosing , kids would prefer to be successful and adaptive , so he is already motivated and trying hard. Rewards and consequences focus on motivation and not even intrinsic motivation. They don't solve underlying problems or teach lagging skills. Dr Ross Greene has a book ' Lost at school ' to help parents and teachers help struggling pupils with their lagging skills.Rewards can sometimes make a kid look good in the short term or dom the opposite and create more stress. his struggle in school is also a product of the interaction between him and the teacher and the deamnds placed on him that outstrip his skills. A kid needs to feel supported and understood and not being told that he chose the punishment. It is not easy , education is a long process


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I guess you hit it right on the head where I'm waffling. I agree that he really does want to succeed. He is a "good kid." And after I posted and had more time to think about things, I think what he really needs is more attention. Except that he is already getting as much as I can possibly give him without abandoning all my household and other-kid duties. But that doesn't mean he doesn't need more....

And yet, I do believe he is choosing. He's not consciously choosing to be punished (although maybe he is, b/c it gets him attention), so to speak, but he chooses his actions and then doesn't want consequences. He does not ever take responsibility for his actions, and when I ask for specifics on what happened at school, or even at home to see if he can tell me what went wrong, he refuses to talk about it. If pressed, he can easily tell me what his choice was and why it wasn't a good one. But he'll do his best to get away with not talking about it at all.

I am doing the best I can to find all the positives in a day and praise him for those. I talk to DH about him at dinner (in front of him) and tell him all the good things I can about the day. I save the negatives for later, after bed time. But the negatives do happen, and they do need to be addressed. I can't just let him get away with abusing his friends at school, but I don't know how to get through to him without it just being me reprimanding him or getting frustrated and yelling. Or making him feel like I'm yelling at him when I'm not....


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *swd12422* 


> He did well for awhile with sticker charts, but I put a stop to that, b/c he proved he knows how to behave and shouldn't need a bribe to do what he knows is right. I don't get paid for being a good person, and neither should he.


He's five, and needs more feedback. Stickers are a form of feedback based on catching kids being good. They let kids know that we are paying attention to them, and appreciate their efforts. They break down the way to be successful into little tiny increments that they can handle, rather than expecting to just be good from now on. For some kids, they make life manageable by letting them focus on one task, or one segment of time.

You know what works for your child, but you don't want to do it because no one gives you stickers. He won't always need the stickers, but they work for him for now.

Has he had an evaluation?

(BTW, I help administer behavior plans for kids with special needs and/or behavior issues at a school. Sticker charts work well for some kids, and not at all for other kids. But they work for your child. There are millions of ways to motivate children, and the more creative you can get about how to cash in a sticker chart, the better you will feel about it AND the more effective it will be for your son. One child I know gets to spend time at a special art table set up just for her when she gets enough stickers. There is something that would make your heart sing and highly motivate your son -- just figure out what it is, and let him earn it with stickers.)


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

An approach to parenting will usually depend on how we view kid's behavior and whether our goal is to promote intrinsic motivation , helping kids motivate themselves rather than using control - consequences or seducation.

We all want attention, the difference is we know how to get attention in positive ways. If we think the problem is motivation and we all we need to do is make him ' wanna' behave , many advise - praise , catching him being good , dangling doggie biscuits in front of him , giving him attention idf he behaves himself etc.

Even if we are non-judgemental , non-punitive etc kids have a hard time discussing with us when they screw up - not only is it a matter of trust - that you are there to suuport them rather than reprimand or punish them , even praise is disliked because it is judgmental - but it is a skill to articulate one's concerns . This is more true when the focus is only on parental expectations and how the kid screwed up and the kid's concerns are ignored.

In the cps - collaborative problem solving approavch model , we don't talk about behaviors - we talk about unsolved problems beginning with the kid's concerns and only later talking about our concerns and expectations.

It is these conversations that promote life skills and trust. It is not easy - it is a process.

Parents start the cps process by looking at a list of potential lagging skills a kid may display. This helps them wear new lenses and start working on solving problems


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Linda, you might be right. I just don't like the bribery angle. It's not about me not being rewarded so neither should he, it's about how real life works. Certain things that we do that are special, we may get an external reward, but basic common decency, we usually don't. We are expected to behave nicely or at least not harm others. There's no reward given for that. But we have been talking more about the reward being how we feel about ourselves and our behavior, and he was asking about what happens if they get a sticker they didn't really earn. I guess the teacher must still be using stickers in some capacity. Maybe he's not ready to give that up yet.

Today I focused less on the negative behaviors we want to eradicate and more on the positives. I told him before school to remember three "good choices" to tell me about at the end of the day. Even that, he couldn't do without help from the teacher. We talked about examples beforehand so he had a concrete idea of the kinds of things we mean when we say "good choices" and that's what he spit back at me. I doubt he actually did those things exactly, but as long as she indicated that he listened to her when she gave him a reminder I'm okay with that. He got a special treat in the car for having a "good" report from the teacher. (There were still problems during the day, but at least they stopped when she told him to stop.)

I'm having a hard time deciphering what "skills" are "lagging" other than keeping it together when he doesn't have something engaging enough to keep him from lashing out. Maybe it's my skill of keeping him occupied and engaged at all times that is lagging?


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## tribord (Mar 18, 2009)

I recently started a reward chart for my 5-YO daughter for not hurting other people when she is really angry. The first one she's ever had. I wouldn't go so far as to call it bribery but it is definately a reward and I have tried to avoid those because I believe they do diminish intrinsic motivation, and therefore had always been resistant to doing a reward chart. What has helped me is thinking of some of her behaviors as bad habits she's gotten into, and it is OK to pull out all the stops to jump-start a change in those habits because habits are hard to break! At the same time I am working on the underlying reasons the behaviors are occuring in the first place and what we can do differently when she gets angry. Yes, I cringe a little at how my daughter likes seeing me put a check mark on her chart and how she likes the reward. But she is proud of herself for acting in a way that isn't hurting other people. Her behavior is changing.

It would probably help if he could get the stickers at school, so he sees the reward immediately.


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## ISISandOSIRIS (Jun 20, 2011)

I get an extrinsic reward every time I go to work. It's called a paycheck ;-)

Reinforcement is not bribery, it's acknowledging good choices in a kid-friendly way. Of course, the sticker alone is not enough. The child should always be told WHY he or she received a sticker along with a hug, high five, etc. this will help the child learn exactly what needs to do to earn another.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

The trouble I had with the sticker chart was that he never seemed to be able to "remember" why he didn't get a sticker for a particular part of the day. Then we switched to getting a sticker at the end of the day if it was overall a "good" day, but he was always convinced he deserved one, until the teacher took the wind out of his sails by reminding him of whatever happened that meant he shouldn't get one. So I put an end to that, and now I think we need to focus on the positive instead of rewarding for the absence of the negative. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.)

I'm going to try out the more positive focus and see if that helps. It has not worked in the past, but I'd rather focus on the positive. Basically, the problem is that any amount of talking (no matter how little) doesn't get through.

Frankly, the paycheck thing doesn't sell me. It's not a reward, it's a trade. Fee for services rendered. If you do an excellent job, you get a reward in the form of a raise or a bonus or extra time off or lunch out or whatever. He goes to school. That is not enough. He needs to listen, learn, and be kind. THAT is his "job." Obviously, since he's little and in need of extra motivation, I'm happy to reward him for less-than-excellent-over-the-top performance as long as nothing really bad happened that day. But the sticker thing was starting to feel like extortion. It was contentious, and started to cause a real problem if he didn't get one even when he knew he didn't deserve it.


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## ISISandOSIRIS (Jun 20, 2011)

Reinforcing "good" behavior is far too subjective and abstract for a LO. Also, reinforcements are meant to increase positive behavior, not decrease negative. Children should be presented with a clear, concrete reason for getting a sticker, token, etc. For example, "I put my toys in the bin" is more doable than "I cleaned my room." "I talked to mom when I got angry" is easier to "get" than "I was good today." Also, I agree, reinforcement works best for a 5yo when immediate.

They key is teaching positive alternatives for negative behaviors. If a sticker helps a child remember to use those alternatives, than so be it. He won't need a sticker chart forever.


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## ISISandOSIRIS (Jun 20, 2011)

Also, adults use extrinsic motivators to help break habits all the time. "I can eat birthday cake if I make healthful choices all week." Finding something to help motivate us to make a positive change is not wrong, unrealistic, bribery. It's a helpful coping strategy when done correctly.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Maybe he has auditory processing disorder-his brain doesnt process sound properly. here are too many noises in the classroom, he cant make out what the teacher is saying, so he doesnt 'listen', and acts out, does is own thing...looks like adhd, looks like bad behavior...my 7yo is like this. I thought it was a disciplinary issue in the past as well ( i posted about it somewhere). Google auditory processing disorder, or sensory processing disorder... i hope this helps...he sounds so much like my son.

I had no clue, until one day we were going through a math workbook. He loved working through it and did it efficiently, speedily, with gusto, with focus, until...we came to a word math problem. He couldnt read at the time, so i read him the verbal question....in an instant all the noisemaking, not paying attention, not listening, started up....but when i put the problem in a visual format, he went back to his focussed self.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Ohhhhh my. I have a call in to a SI therapist. Hopefully she will call me back. After reading a bunch about SPD b/c of my younger DS, I started to suspect there might be an issue with the 5 yo. Now that others with experience in that area are saying that, too, I wonder. Is it that those of us who are aware of SPD are all hearing hoofbeats and thinking zebras, or is it really a zebra this time? B/c most of my friends (and the ped) say horses, but none of them have seen too many zebras, IYKWIM.


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

Brain development can't be rushed and cognitive function is responsible for impulse control.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> After reading a bunch about SPD b/c of my younger DS, I started to suspect there might be an issue with the 5 yo. Now that others with experience in that area are saying that, too, I wonder. Is it that those of us who are aware of SPD are all hearing hoofbeats and thinking zebras, or is it really a zebra this time?


Behaviors that children can be bribed or punished to stop are NOT related to sensory processing issues. Sensory issues run deeper than that, and bribes and punishments don't effect them. They truly are things that the children can not help and the adults are left figuring how to change the sensory input. Because his behaviors are effected by rewards, they aren't caused by sensory issues.

However, it sounds like your son has a variety of issues in a variety of settings. Has he had an evaluation?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> The trouble I had with the sticker chart was that he never seemed to be able to "remember" why he didn't get a sticker for a particular part of the day. Then we switched to getting a sticker at the end of the day if it was overall a "good" day, but he was always convinced he deserved one, until the teacher took the wind out of his sails by reminding him of whatever happened that meant he shouldn't get one. So I put an end to that, and now I think we need to focus on the positive instead of rewarding for the absence of the negative. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.)


I think your expectation that he be able to recount why he gets each sticker is inappropriate for a 5 year old. Again, that is your hang up and doesn't have anything to do with it working for your son.

Saying a day was overall good or overall bad is really subjective. A zillion little opportunities happen everyday, and honestly what counts as successful for a child with behavior issues varies from child to child. Using a chart allows a way to break it into segments or tasks -- a smaller chunk that the child CAN understand. Your son's lack of ability to list each segment with details doesn't mean that it didn't work for him. A child gets the hang of how many stickers is a "good day" for them. It gives them a concrete measure. Most kids on behavior plans are not going to have perfect days, so being able to quantify it as a "good day" based on the total number of stickers helps kids instead of requesting they make a judgment. They can't.

The kids I work with are a couple of years older than your son, and we work A LOT on helping them understand and then recount why a choice they made was positive or negative. Its a skill they are are developing, not one they have down. And we are working on one segment of the day, not the whole day.

Sometimes, the positive and the absence of negative are ways of stating the exact same thing. "maintained a calm body" is a positive way to state a lack of a negative behavior. I do think it is helpful to phrase things in a positive way for small children to the greatest extent possible. "don't hit your classmates" isn't as helpful as "keep your hands to yourself."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> Certain things that we do that are special, we may get an external reward, but basic common decency, we usually don't. We are expected to behave nicely or at least not harm others. There's no reward given for that. But we have been talking more about the reward being how we feel about ourselves and our behavior,


I'm basically a nice person, and I get a lot of rewards for that. I have friends, neighbors who like me, I get invited places, and I'm in a very positive and supportive marriage. Being kind to people really pays off for me.

Most school age children can understand that their behavior effects whether or not other kids want to play with them. Most children want to have friends and want to be liked. They can understand the very natural consequence of being unkind is that the other kids don't want to hang out with them.

You said that you don't think he should get rewards because he can do these behaviors seemed to miss a part of what is happening. Your son can do these behaviors *with extra help and support.* If he really don't do the behaviors, then the sticker chart wouldn't have made a different -- you can't motivate some one to do something that they really, truly, aren't capable of. This is really, really hard for him. He can't do it consistently. He has to really work at it. He needs to have help and support with it.

For children who need to change their behavior towards other because it is consistently hurtful (and it sounds like your son's is) I think that addressing it in several different ways is helpful. Breaking it down into smaller steps, monitoring it, providing lots of attention for being good to minimize the risk of seeking attention in negative ways, talking to them about how their behavior effects others, etc are all good things. Sticker charts can help with tracking and motivation. They are just a tool.

Having watched kids with behavior plans and sticker charts, I can tell you that they get a LOT more attention from the teacher than most kids, and that they have the opportunity to get a LOT more attention for *positive behavior* than most kids. Telling the teacher to not reward your child for positive behavior leaves the teacher with no choice but to wait until your child misbehaves and then punish them in some way. How is that positive?

An excellent book you might find helpful is "smart by scattered"


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Is it possible that you are engaging in too much back and forth to convince him that his choice earned him the consequence? IME engaging in a lot of discussion takesthe focus off the behavior and puts it on arguing and trying to be right. It is OK for a child to be unhappy about nor making a good choice and not getting to continue an activity because of that and it is OK to state something once and not engage in argument in an attempt to convince them to go along with the consequence without whining or arguing further.

Imposing any consequence can feel so wrong and kids pick up on that and use it to their advantage, not because they are bad or manipulative but because they are normal humans who don't want a consequence they don't like. If you are going to impose a decision or consequence on your child you need to find a way to be OK letting them feel disappointed without trying to argue them out of showing their disappointment.


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## tribord (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ISISandOSIRIS*
> 
> Also, adults use extrinsic motivators to help break habits all the time. "I can eat birthday cake if I make healthful choices all week." Finding something to help motivate us to make a positive change is not wrong, unrealistic, bribery. It's a helpful coping strategy when done correctly.


This is a good example of what I meant about using reward of the the chart to help break a habit. Thinking of it in the above terms helped me get more comfortable with using a rewards chart.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ISISandOSIRIS*
> 
> Reinforcing "good" behavior is far too subjective and abstract for a LO. Also, reinforcements are meant to increase positive behavior, not decrease negative. Children should be presented with a clear, concrete reason for getting a sticker, token, etc. For example, "I put my toys in the bin" is more doable than "I cleaned my room." "I talked to mom when I got angry" is easier to "get" than "I was good today." Also, I agree, reinforcement works best for a 5yo when immediate.
> 
> They key is teaching positive alternatives for negative behaviors. If a sticker helps a child remember to use those alternatives, than so be it. He won't need a sticker chart forever.


Good point. My daughter's reward chart for not hitting when she is angry is actually called "DD's Good Choices Even When Really, Really Angry" chart (she helped me come up with the title).


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## tribord (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> A lot of it is impulse control and I don't know how to help him with that. But he KNOWS the right thing and just chooses not to do it, and it's happening more frequently.
> 
> ...


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

The problem with rewards is they do sometimes work in the short term. When it kid learns that it pays to be nice, you are teaching him to ask what's in it for me and not what kind of person I want to be - I am kind etc - because that is who I am. If we want commitment to values underlying behavior we need to focus on kids finding meaning, purpose and value in what they do , they are competent , they feel self directed and not doing things to please others or get a reward and the relationship is unconditional - not dependent on how they behave . This is when reinforcement takes place. When we use rewards , the only thing we are reinforcing is the child's motivation to get more rewards. Rewards can be self determined - meaning that we as adults or kids want to achieve a certain goal and use some extrinsic motivation to help us along - when we use behavior charts , the goal of the kid is to get the reward and we use the reward as a source of control. So when we use consequences , rewards etc we are now responsible for the kids behavior , the locus of control is with us . Also from a values perspective why convert a behavior which expresses a value into money - we should be doing the opposite showing how we use money or give up money to invest in helping others and doing things that are more pro-social , spiritual etc

So if we must use rewards make sure they are self determined - the kid sees them as a help to further his expectations , not only yours . And before that do some collaborative problem solving getting your child's concerns and expectations on the table, then yours , define the problem and then try and find a mutually satisfying solution - this is hard and messy but engaging in the process the kid is acquring the many cognitive skills he is lacking . The process is difficult but more respectable - rewards are so easy but at a price


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

To me, rewards are really no different than punishment (call it "consequences" if you want). Extrinsic motivation. Works with some kids; not so much with others. I get the OP's attitude that sticker charts externalize the motivation. But time-outs do exactly the same thing. Natural consequences (if you leave your bike out, it will get rusty or stolen) are part of life in the real world. Sometimes it plays out in the real world - if you are mean, the other kids won't want to play with you. But it still doesn't directly teach any particular skill. If you play nicely, other kids will want to play with you may be the natural truth, but doesn't help teach a skill either.

Mom saying, "If you hit, you must come inside, take a time out, apologize, then go out and play again", whether that is in 10 minutes or tomorrow or whenever, doesn't teach any skill. Putting a sticker on a chart doesn't teach any problem-solving skill either. If the problem is staying calm and communicating when another child takes your toy, that is the lagging skill. Maybe the kids need closer supervision right now, so Mom can intervene earlier, to suggest a problem-solving strategy (turn-taking, sharing, whatever the moment calls for) before the incident gets out of hand. As a therapeutic foster parent, most of my kids started with 24/7 line of sight supervision. I know how exhausting and intense this is. But it really was an opportunity to teach the precise lagging skills. Over time, they earned my trust in small increments (although I never put it to them that way - I found it worked better to silently slip from the scene for a moment at a time, gradually increasing the freedom).

This intense parenting doesn't translate well to school, but one hopes the skills the child learns will.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I have been trying to be more"present" with the kids, and when I see something coming, I talk to DS and coach him, but he doesn't hear me much of the time. Same with after the fact, when everyone is more calm and no longer in the moment.... He just can't seem to focus on the conversation, and trust me when I say I use as few words as possible! I do my best not to lecture. It doesn't matter. He is usually lost by the third or fourth word. He can tell me the "right" answer to a situation, but can't seem to live it. How do I help him get there?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> I talk to DS and coach him, but he doesn't hear me much of the time. Same with after the fact, when everyone is more calm and no longer in the moment.... He just can't seem to focus on the conversation, and trust me when I say I use as few words as possible! I do my best not to lecture. It doesn't matter. He is usually lost by the third or fourth word.


I've asked twice if your son has had an evaluation, and you haven't answered. I think this post is on target, as well:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Maybe he has auditory processing disorder-his brain doesnt process sound properly. here are too many noises in the classroom, he cant make out what the teacher is saying, so he doesnt 'listen', and acts out, does is own thing...looks like adhd, looks like bad behavior...my 7yo is like this. I thought it was a disciplinary issue in the past as well ( i posted about it somewhere). Google auditory processing disorder, or sensory processing disorder... i hope this helps...he sounds so much like my son.


There are a variety of problems that could be at the root at this behavior. He is struggling, and it sounds like he has trouble learning from being spoken to (at this time) so he isn't learning from you or his teacher. I think looking for root causes makes sense.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> Is it possible that you are engaging in too much back and forth to convince him that his choice earned him the consequence? IME engaging in a lot of discussion takesthe focus off the behavior and puts it on arguing and trying to be right. It is OK for a child to be unhappy about nor making a good choice and not getting to continue an activity because of that and it is OK to state something once and not engage in argument in an attempt to convince them to go along with the consequence without whining or arguing further.


I agree with this. Up thread, you said that part of the reason you didn't like stickers is because he is unhappy when he doesn't get one. That's a teachable moment. That's the time to talk about his choices and how they worked out for him, and what strategies he could use next time to have a different outcome. The unhappiness is a TOOL he can use to get a grip on his behavior. Getting away from the idea that stickers are an arbitrary thing that YOU decide, but rather something that he makes a clear CHOICE about is key.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamarhu*
> 
> To me, rewards are really no different than punishment (call it "consequences" if you want). Extrinsic motivation. ....
> 
> ...


Rewards are completely different than punishments. In a reward system, the focus is on when a child gets it RIGHT, rather than when they get it wrong. It allows some undesirable behaviors to be ignored (unless the child is being unsafe to themselves or others) and attention to go to the the times they make appropriate choices. This is beneficial in many ways:

1. Any part of the behavior that is motivated by a desire for more attention stops. They get the attention for good choices, rather than for acting out.

2. Interaction between the adult and the child focus on the good stuff, which is a lot more pleasant for everyone. Part of my job is administring behavior plans, and I really enjoy my job. I love seeing the kids being successful and being able to talk to them about the good choices they make. I couldn't stand a job where I had to tell children all the time what they had done wrong and then punish them. yuck.

3. Children don't have to be perfect to get positive feedback. When the focus is punishment, every kid with real issues is going to have a bad day every day, but when the focus is on rewards, they have the real option of having a good day even though they are still struggling. This lets kids internalize that they CAN BE GOOD. Kids who are always in trouble (however we word it and how ever we respond) figure it out about themselves and it effects they way they see themselves. Helping them pivot from that by switching our dialogue to the things they did well, rather than the things they didn't get right, lets them see themselves in a more positive light, which can help inspire them to do even better in the future. It's an upward spiral.

I agree about keeping children in sight and working with them to develop specific skills. No reward can teach a skill. Rewards can only work if the child is CAPABLE of the behavior, but has trouble with either motivation or consistency.

I also think that the techniques that work best in home and at school have similarities, but some real differences. As someone who works in a school with kids with behavior problems, I would recommend parents not tell teachers to skip using reasonable classroom management strategies or behavior management techniques with their child because of the parents' philosophical bent. You don't want to use stickers at home? Fine. Your child has a teacher who uses stickers to motivate students and has success with your child with that? Stay out of it. Let the teacher do her job in a way that works for her and for the students.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mary934*
> 
> When it kid learns that it pays to be nice, you are teaching him to ask what's in it for me and not what kind of person I want to be - I am kind etc - because that is who I am. If we want commitment to values underlying behavior we need to focus on kids finding meaning, purpose and value in what they do , they are competent , they feel self directed and not doing things to please others or get a reward and the relationship is unconditional - not dependent on how they behave . This is when reinforcement takes place. When we use rewards , the only thing we are reinforcing is the child's motivation to get more rewards. Rewards can be self determined - meaning that we as adults or kids want to achieve a certain goal and use some extrinsic motivation to help us along - when we use behavior charts , the goal of the kid is to get the reward and we use the reward as a source of control. So when we use consequences , rewards etc we are now responsible for the kids behavior , the locus of control is with us . Also from a values perspective why convert a behavior which expresses a value into money - we should be doing the opposite showing how we use money or give up money to invest in helping others and doing things that are more pro-social , spiritual etc


In some ways I agree with you. With my own children, I avoided rewards when they were small and worked to help them develop intrinsic motivation for things things I valued most. However, I think that rewards have a place, and a more important place with some kids than others.

Kids aren't all the same, and what works fine for one child doesn't for another. When it comes to not being aggressive with other children, some kids need that really, really broken down into small increments and then to have success with each increment celebrated. It's that hard for them. This isn't about underlying values -- one can easily value "kindness" to others in the abstract while engaging in a specific behavior that is hurtful (adults who gossip do this all the time). In talking to children who've been aggressive on the playground (which is something I do 5 days a week) the action is seldom motivated by the desire to actually hurt another child. Many, many children can easily learn from talking, listening, explaining, or simple punishment such as losing 5 minutes of recess.

For other kids, all the talking in the world doesn't make an impact, and taking recess away for every infraction means the child would never get to play at recess. Figuring out exactly how they need things broken down and exactly what does motivating them is key to helping them be successful. One of the kids I work with earns time to help in his old Kindergarten teacher's room, and even to help in the principals office (which he oddly loves doing). Another gets to earn time at an art table that is set up just for her. Another gets to pick a prize from a prize box. Different things work for different kids, and I would suggest that anyone working with a child with REAL behavior problems spend a lot time really figuring out what is meaningful to the child, what they value, and honor that.

I've seen kids figure out that the behavior that is being reward is actually a behavior that really works for them for their own reasons. Rather than causing a need for more rewards, a well thought out and implemented system gradually means a need for fewer rewards, or the same rewards for a higher standard of behavior. (doing this is a heck of a lot of work -- it involves really watching a child and talking to them about their choices in empowering way).

Relationships (and everything else in life) are dependent on our behavior. Two of the kids I work with are at risk for ending up in prison. You are kidding yourself if you think that relationships aren't dependent on how we behave. As far as rewards making an adult/child relationship conditional, I disagree. *We can make it clear to children that we always care about them, we always like them, and we are always rooting for them,* even when their behavior is unacceptable. Any form of feedback we give kids is best being based on this -- if we are celebrating something wonderful they've created or some really poor they've made. We care about them as a human being because we do -- because they are worthy of respect and dignity.

I agree that we need to work with children on developing solid, internal values. I think that is VERY important. I'm saying that we need to keep all the other kids safe while we do that, and that the child with the behavior problems really is best off if we can do it in a positive way.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Linda, I thought I did respond to your question, if I didn't, I apologize. There is so much helpful info in these replies that it's hard to keep things straight! But the answer is no, not yet. I am waiting for a call back from a sensory integration specialist who was recommended by my other son's developmental specialist. In the meantime, if you have another recommendation for someone to see for an evaluation, I'm all ears. His ped says, "He's a 5 year old boy. My 14 year old still acts like that." Um, either she didn't hear what I said or she has no idea what is appropriate behavior for a 14 year old boy.... Either way, she said she would write me a referral "to whoever I need" but didn't make any recommendations as to whether that would be an SI specialist, OT, neurologist, etc. So I'm kind of lost.

With the stickers, I did try to show him how getting a sticker was HIS choice, not the teacher's. He insisted one day that she "lied" about his behavior and that he should have gotten one that day. Most other days, he just couldn't manage a conversation about it at all, whether he'd earned one or not. We have morphed into me saying, "Tell me about the good choices you made today." He can't. He can tell me he made some bad choices.... So I say, "Okay, what were the bad choices?" He can't tell me what they were. Sometimes he'll mumble something that is so vague I highly doubt it even happened. Like he'll say, "I threw sand at someone." Okayyy.... You said that yesterday. You know that's a bad choice. But did you really do it? Today? Again? Then he changes it to something else, and a lot of times it sounds like something one of his friends did, not him. It's like he just knows the "right answer" but has no idea what actually happened. Or he can tell me what he SHOULD do in a certain situation, but doesn't actually do it when presented with that same situation.

I only ask him about bad choices to understand his behavior, and to see if he can identify the difference between a good choice and a not-so-good one. We don't dwell on it. I do try to dwell on the good choices, or just the fact that he changed his behavior after a warning from the teacher if he can't tell me something more specific. So no, I'm not trying to browbeat him for every infraction, and am looking for any and every opportunity to praise him.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> His ped says, "He's a 5 year old boy. My 14 year old still acts like that." ....
> 
> With the stickers, I did try to show him how getting a sticker was HIS choice, not the teacher's. He insisted one day that she "lied" about his behavior and that he should have gotten one that day. Most other days, he just couldn't manage a conversation about it at all, whether he'd earned one or not. We have morphed into me saying, "Tell me about the good choices you made today." He can't. ....


I think it is difficult for people who aren't seeing a behavior to understand the intensity of a behavior.

Quote: from
http://kidshealth.org/parent/medical/ears/central_auditory.html#



> Audiologists (hearing specialists) can determine if a child has APD. Although speech-language pathologists can get an idea by interacting with the child, only audiologists can perform auditory processing testing and determine if there really is a problem.


You also might post on the special needs board about the various problems your son has both in and out of school and ask for suggestions for the type of specialists that would be best as sorting this out.

Quote:


> Most other days, he just couldn't manage a conversation about it at all, whether he'd earned one or not. We have morphed into me saying, "Tell me about the good choices you made today." He can't.


You need to work with him on his behavior when he is with you, and the let the teacher work on his behavior at school. Based on the subject you gave this thread, this has always been a problem. That part of it that he does in front of you is the part that you need to be talking to him about.

The stuff that happens at school he need to discuss with his teacher as things are happening, not hours later with someone who wasn't there. He needs to be TOLD by someone who knows, not expected to explain to someone who doesn't. That is a very different skill.

If he is unhappy that he didn't get a sticker and he is unclear why, then you need to immediately talk to the teacher and clarify things. In your situation, I think you and your son speaking briefly to the teacher at pickup time would be ideal. I think that part of the problem is that you've been trying to be in charge of the behavior plan at school -- which you cannot do. Its up to the teacher, and she can keep you in the loop. You can work on his behavior all the rest of the time.

I personally disagree with one sticker for a "good" day or no sticker for a "bad" day. It's too subjective. How good is good and how bad is bad? The kids I work with get stickers throughout the day for a variety of things -- varying from child to child.

One child has a page with sections, and if he gets 5 stickers in every section, then he gets his real reward (helping in another class). Friday, he didn't get his reward because he only had one sticker for the "walking in line" section. Every time his class goes some where, he can get a sticker if he does so without acting out. He only had one sticker in that section, so at the end of the day, we talked about that and about what he could do differently on Monday. If he were having a conversation with someone who wasn't there and didn't have that kind of detail in his behavior plan, he would sound like your son. After all, he did well at recess. He did all his work. He sat quietly during instructional times. He even helped out a substitute teacher in a very responsible way. But his plan specifies that he has to behave in line, and he didn't -- he pushed, kicked, ran, etc. The sticker chart is just a way of keeping track and providing feedback.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

We started with a chart -- one sticker for each part of the day (centers, rug time, outside time, lunch, etc). He was getting a sticker for every part of the day, every day, so the teacher chose to switch to one for the day. That was when it became too nebulous for him, I think. So when he didn't seem to be "getting it" we talked about stopping it altogether. I am not trying to dictate how she handles her classroom. I did say that I didn't like the idea of stickers, but if it works, I am okay with it. What wasn't working was her having to stop every hour to talk to him about his behavior the previous hour. Too many kids, not enough time to keep that up. So I didn't argue -- it seemed like it worked and now we can progress, but now that I am typing this up I can see exactly what changed for him.

So at least some of it is needing attention/closer supervision. But I would still love to know how to teach him to keep himself in line b/c he wants to, not b/c he wants attention, or a sticker or a cookie. Assuming, of course, that he doesn't in fact have a sensory processing or auditory processing issue.....


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## mary934 (Mar 9, 2011)

Stickers - I am not one for stickers , but if you use them , make it very, very, easy to get so there is momentum and don't take away stickers or points when the kid behaves inappropriately

Unconditional Parenting - in the book by Alfie Kohn by this title and in his articles AK explains that it does not matter how much we explain that we unconditionally love them and want the best for them etc and kids when asked will reply that you love them unconditionally but on the inside they feel that when they behave appropriately and do well at school they get more love and attention. It is nort what we say , if is how they interpet what is going on.

Combining approaches - how do we view the kid's behavior - bad choices and needs extrinsic motivation to wanna make better choices or continue making good choices.

or his behavior is a result of a pile of unsolved problems and lagging skills.

combining approaches is very problematic with kids that struggle . In many cases rewards cause more anxiety and stress , kid feels constantly judged.

The one approach is kids do well if they want to - choices , rewards etc or kids do well if they can - learn skills and problem solve , skills are learned indirectly bu using the CPS/RDI process.

There is room for feedback , but this can take place in the formal of neutral information , without judgment so the conversation is more about reflection and self assessment and internal feelings of pride - we want a kid to know that what is important is how he feels and not how he makes momma feel

I would focus less on him, - no talk about good or bad choices . he is already trying hard . We all make mistakes and in real life mistakes are our friends because we can learn from them.

It is hard work .

In order to help him acquire the lagging skills , I suggest you check out the RDI approach - relationship development interventions , which focus on promoting skills and relationship which is also a skill in the context of day to day activities around the home and general conversations where we do more of the listening and the kid the talking , talking about perspectives, our concerns, how we feel , how we think others would feel. This is all very non-emotive stuff

The 2nd approach is CPS - collaborative problem solving approach =Ross Greene . check out the list of lagging skills and see how your son fits in - this helps us to wear the lenses of children do well if they can

We then focus not on behaviors , but on unsolved problems. A kid is more likely to talk about an unsolved problem than about inappropriate behavior.

Being a CPS/RDI parent is not easy , parents are usually used to using Plan A = unilateral commands or requests rather than collaborating with kids, so they are not very skilled.

Education is a process and it is the CPS/RDI process which promotes skills and relationship

I hope this helps


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Internal motivation is a wonderful thing but not all kids have the same internal motivations. I really doubt there is a way to make a person internally motivated to do somehing they have no interest in themselves.

I would focus less on that and more on finding an external motivator you are comfortable with for now. It doesn't have to be an item, for my DD it was my verbal acknowledgment of her good day.

When my DD was young she had a lot of behavior problems in school and it really helped to know what specifically happened, the teacher would tell me. I would then ask her to come up with a plan for what she would do instead and we moved on. It took the first half of the year but she slowly had more good days and liked the response she got and moved to always having good days after the Christmas holiday.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I found your most recent post surprising.....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> We started with a chart -- one sticker for each part of the day (centers, rug time, outside time, lunch, etc). He was getting a sticker for every part of the day, every day, so the teacher chose to switch to one for the day. That was when it became too nebulous for him, I think. So when he didn't seem to be "getting it" we talked about stopping it altogether. I am not trying to dictate how she handles her classroom. I did say that I didn't like the idea of stickers, but if it works, I am okay with it.


because in your first post you said:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> He did well for awhile with sticker charts, but I put a stop to that, b/c he proved he knows how to behave and shouldn't need a bribe to do what he knows is right. I don't get paid for being a good person, and neither should he.


and also...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> we switched to getting a sticker at the end of the day if it was overall a "good" day, but he was always convinced he deserved one, until the teacher took the wind out of his sails by reminding him of whatever happened that meant he shouldn't get one. So I put an end to that,


I'm doubting that I can be of help because I'm unclear about what is actually going on with your son. From now on, I'll just be addressing the concept of stickers and rewards at school in general, and not for a specific child.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mary934*
> 
> In many cases rewards cause more anxiety and stress , kid feels constantly judged....
> 
> this can take place in the formal of neutral information , without judgment so the conversation is more about reflection and self assessment and internal feelings of pride - *we want a kid to know that what is important is how he feels* and not how he makes momma feel


In administering behavior plans in a school, this isn't what a see. The kids with solid behavior plans in place are happy and more at ease than the kids who are always in trouble. The standard has been lowered for them to something they can achieve, and when they do achieve what they can, they get something they think is really cool. On the other hand, the kids who are always in trouble but don't have behavior plans (because their trouble is new, or their parents won't consent to a BP) tend to be sad and frustrated. Seeing this play out, its kind of a no-brainier to me.

At the same time, there is behavior that we as a society judge as wrong -- physical hurting another person. If kid A hurts kid B, then kid A needs to understand that kid B has feelings just like they do, and that we do not tolerate hurting other people. Kid A needs to understand that not everything is about him. Making it all about his feelings is misguided. We need to make the conversation about *the other person's feelings.*

We do talk a lot to kids about what happened right before their behavior. We call it the ABC approach:

A - Antecedent

B - Behavior

C - Consequence.

Figuring out antecedents and addressing them in a meaningful way is part of helping a child pivot to social acceptable choices, but at the same time, it really doesn't matter what kid B did, it is never OK to throw sand in their face, hit them, push them down, etc.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

My apologies. It's really hard for me to concentrate on typing and choosing the right words with the constant interruptions I have going on here. I didn't mean to imply that it was all my doing. The teacher and I talked about it, she actually initiated the stopping of the stickers, and I agreed. I agreed readily, b/c it seemed to be having a negative effect on him after awhile when he decided he always deserved one and never would be able to agree that certain behavior that meant no sticker ever happened. And b/c we talked about how we are each expected to do certain things as part of our daily lives, and we don't get special credit for them. That was the first conversation we had where he seemed to listen and understand, and agree.

At any rate, I do appreciate the help and the time you have taken to type up all your thoughtful responses. I do agree that focusing on the positive and helping him understand how his behavior affects others is what we need. What I'm not so sure about is "lowering the bar" in his case. He just spent the weekend with my parents and was a perfect angel. And they're the ones who raised me with such strict rules about how to behave.... He has been at this same school for two years and never had a behavior issue before. He seems to be torn between loving the extra attention and stickers and feeling special, and feeling isolated b/c he's the only one who gets stickers. Meanwhile, there are other kids in the class who exhibit these same behaviors (his friends, who he follows) and their parents apparently don't think it's important to be involved in teaching their kids to do differently. So he sees kids behaving "worse" than he does and they're not getting in trouble for it like he is. Or at least he doesn't see the teachers talking to them as much as he feels they talk to him.

We have been using the ABC approach. (I didn't know it had a name, but that's how I've been trying to sort things out.) I can't get him to tell me about A, and half the time, he's not clear on B himself. One minute he destroyed someone's work, the next it was throwing sand instead. If I can't sort out what really happened, how can there be a consequence, or even a lesson learned, much less a creative way to help prevent it from happening to begin with? The teachers have been slowly starting to figure out how to head him off at the pass at times, but now there's all of a week left at school. Next year, we start all over at a new school, new teacher, and it'll take him/her the same 8 months to figure him out....


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> Meanwhile, there are other kids in the class who exhibit these same behaviors *(his friends, who he follows)* and their parents apparently don't think it's important to be involved in teaching their kids to do differently. So he sees kids behaving "worse" than he does and they're not getting in trouble for it like he is. Or at least he doesn't see the teachers talking to them as much as he feels they talk to him.
> 
> ... One minute he destroyed someone's work, the next it was throwing sand instead. If I can't sort out what really happened, how can there be a consequence, or even a lesson learned, much less a creative way to help prevent it from happening to begin with?


He is showing a complete lack of ownership for his behavior, and you are enabling this. He was the only kid in the class on a behavior plan and you think he is *following* other kids?

Throwing sand is a really horrid thing to do -- I've helped hold down small children while the school nursed washed sand from their eyes. It's horrible. Most of the time, the cornea isn't scratched -- it just hurts really bad and is very scary. Sometimes, the cornea is scratched. Sometimes, eyes get infected.

Destroying other children's work is a really nasty thing to do.

Your child is violent and destructive, and you are buying that he is following other kids, that the teacher is picking on him, and that there is nothing you can do.

If I were I you, I would be speaking to the teacher EVERY DAY and find out what he did that day, and then I would let him know that it isn't OK to hurt other people, destroy things, etc. He is 100% responsible for his actions, regardless of what other children do or how their parents or teachers deal with them.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

OMG THANK YOU. I agree with everything you said, except the part where I'm enabling him! Most people seem to think I'm too hard on him and should just accept that kids do these things. Especially boys.

I have been talking to the teachers EVERY DAY of the school year about his behavior b/c he was telling me these stories about things that had happened at school, and I couldn't sort out what had really gone on. He has had a pattern since toddlerhood of being drawn to the most energetic, wild, and sometimes out of control kids. I could watch him on the playground and he would stand there, studying the other kids. He'd watch the ones who caught his attention the most easily (by being louder, or faster, or more wild than other kids) and you could see the wheels turning in his head. Then he'd experiment. He'd throw some sand and then be very still and see what would happen. Oh, wait, that kid put it on someone's head.... He'd put sand on his own head, or someone else's, and I would tell him no..... He'd take another kid's hat off his head EVERY time he saw the kid, b/c that kid always wore a hat and he always screeched in an interesting way when DS took the hat. He'd take the hat off and watch and wait for the kid to yell and then he'd give it back. Then do it again to see if he'd get the same reaction. This was at 2 years old and everyone said, "Oh, he's only two." Yes, but he isn't getting it when I say no, he doesn't like that.... Later, he started doing things with certain friends he'd NEVER do on his own or with other friends. This school year, that morphed into him starting to initiate that kind of behavior even with his friends who don't start trouble. I went to talk to the teachers the first month of school after it seemed like things were starting to escalate. They looked at me like I was insane b/c they "hadn't noticed" anything out of the ordinary. I was frustrated for MONTHS, thinking I'm "that mom" who is helicopter-parenting her kid and not letting him "be a kid." Yes, all kids throw sand or whatever, but at some point they understand that it's not okay and they don't do it anymore. Mine has not. And I don't know why, since it's not exactly allowed when I'm present. (Playtime ends when dirt/sand is thrown at our house, or at the park. IDK what happens at school. Probably not much other than a warning.)

Basically, the teachers were puzzled as to why I was asking about his behavior. I know from another mom that the kids he is playing with the most are very wild. She warned me when she found out he was in that class that there are kids in there "you don't want him around." She told me about a birthday party one of them had where it was like Lord of the Flies. Her own child is high energy and often gets in trouble for talking, being distracting in class, etc. but she said these kids were far beyond "acceptable" in her eyes.

I knew as soon as she said that who they were based on the fact they were the two names my son had ever mentioned at that point. I told her, "I know who you mean." Told her the names and she said I was right. So I was ready (or so I thought) for some behavior, but the teachers didn't seem to see much out of the ordinary at first.

It has taken them this long to start acknowledging there is an issue. Maybe because he listened at first when he got warnings and now he is not. Maybe the behavior itself is actually worse. I don't know, b/c the teachers are not exactly forthcoming with details either. I get mostly "there was some behavior, and when I reminded him to make good choices, he did (or didn't)." She just says, "More of the same" that we have been seeing, meaning the kinds of things I mentioned, from being mean and destructive to disruptive in class. She wouldn't even tell me who the other kids involved were, but I let her know I know who they are. Sometimes she'll say, it was another kid this time, but won't tell me who. They claim confidentiality, so I can't even talk to the other moms on my own to get their perspective since I'm not supposed to know what their kids are doing in school. Which I think is ridiculous.

I have seen these other boys in action. I talk to one of the moms a little bit (there is a language barrier there, but we chat briefly) and she tells me her two boys behave that way nearly all the time. She doesn't indicate that it's a problem for her per se, just that they are wild and fight in public with each other and just never seem to stop. Her attitude seems to be that she doesn't exactly like it, but they're boys, so what is she to do ? I have no idea if the teacher is working with them at the same level as mine, but he was the only one with a sticker chart that I saw, and I have not noticed the moms talking to the teacher after class like I do. Maybe they are communicating later via email, I don't know. I am not claiming he is being singled out; he feels that way b/c he doesn't see the other kids being treated the same way with stickers and moms talking. That doesn't mean it's not happening, we just don't know about it.

We are constantly letting him know that his behavior is his choice, and that he needs to make good ones or he'll end up very unhappy with the consequences. It doesn't matter. He says, "You say it's all my fault, and NOTHING is my fault!" I don't use that word, although I think DH might. I let him know that he chose the timeout, or the loss of a sticker, or whatever by not listening to us when we told him to stop a certain behavior. That we don't expect perfection, but that when he is doing something that is not a good choice and we let him know, he can choose to change what he'd doing or else he is choosing a consequence he may not like. He doesn't seem to be getting that. Lots of people have said that it's developmental, that he will learn. But he's FIVE. Shouldn't he be getting it at this point?


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