# 11 YR old BF



## Zanymom (Sep 2, 2003)

Tonight while discussing with my family how long I was going to BF my DS, someone mentioned that they work with a lady who does EBF. This lady brags about EBF her 10 or 11 YEAR old son. She is a member of LLL, but does the LLL really support BF for that long? I have an 11yr old neice and they are already taking sex ed. classes and going through puberty. Boys that age are starting to see women in a whole new way.

What are your thoughts on how long EBF should be continued. Do you think BF for that long could create social problems for the child? Her other kids were also EBF for just as long i think. I have interacted with them on a few different occasions and them don't seem to fit in with the other kids, but try harder to find approval from the adults.

SO what do you think?....


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

I think that it is not up to me to judge other women for how long they breastfeed. I do not know her individual situation, nor do I know if my child will have weaned herself by age ten. I once thought age 4 or 5 was a ripe old age for a nursling. I knon now that every situation is unique, and it is not my place to say when a child weans.
Lauren


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

Well, like Lauren said I hate to tell other people how to do things since I don't want anyone telling me what to do.









While I can't imagine nursing until that age, I know it's different when it's your own child. I used to think 2-3 years old was too old (and sorta gross) until I had my own children. I nursed my dd until she weaned at 20 months (I was prepared to tandem nurse, but she weaned when I was 2mo pg) and will allow ds to wean when he is ready.

I can't really picture my siblings or myself nursing that long!


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## Aster (Aug 12, 2002)

I think bf'ing an 11 yr old would probably be out of my comfort level. But who knows. I havent walked in those shoes.


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

It is definitely out of my comfort level as well.

But, I don't think it has anything to do with sex. The breasts (in most cultures) are only seen as mechanisms for feeding, not sex. Unless someone is taught that they are sexual, they aren't.

Personally, I feel that there are developmental windows for behavior and an 11 year old nursing does not fit in with my conception of what is developmentally appropriate. But I don't know that situation or that family, and I'm sure there are relevant factors that haven't been mentioned here.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm with the other posters. I used to think that a three year old was Waaayy too olf to be nursing, but my ds will be three next week and says he has no plans to stop.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I personally know for sure that I would not be comfortable nursing taht long. I don't think I would be comfortable seeing someone nurse a child of that age either.
That said yoru friend may have been exagerating too get a point across about extended BF. I say this because I know someone who does this all the time. She thinks that BF beyond a year is gross and will say things like " well tina Bf her daughter till she was in kindergarten" which someone may have been like whoa but I know tina and she bF until she started preschool at the age of three not six like she is portraying. Just though I'd point that out.
It also would not be in me if it was true to tell her she is wrong.


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## Firemom (Nov 21, 2001)

I would say that nursing to 11 years of age is definitely way out of the norm. Some girls are already going thru puberty at that age.

I don't even know if I really beleive this woman, but I guess it is possible for it to happen.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

I have interacted with them on a few different occasions and them don't seem to fit in with the other kids, but try harder to find approval from the adults.
Gee that describes how I was as a kid and I wasn't nursed for more than 8-9 months.







:

Maybe that's just their personality types?

I think 11 is beyond my comfort range too, and it's rather outside the range of biologically "normal" weaning ages found in K. Dettwyler's research, but I try to not look askance at others who do things differently than I do. It'd be too tiring for one thing; most people in this country do things differently than we do.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

But, I don't think it has anything to do with sex. The breasts (in most cultures) are only seen as mechanisms for feeding, not sex. Unless someone is taught that they are sexual, they aren't.
I agree in principle, but in *this* culture, breasts are _highly_ sexualized.







: I would find it hard to believe that a boy could be totally sheltered from that. Even if he were still sheltered at age 11, how will he feel when he is 16 or 17 and thinks back on the experience of BF as a pre-teen? Whatever the range of normal may be in the "natural" world, I would have to wonder if this is truely best for a boy in this culture. BUT, like others have said, I haven't BTDT (and don't plan to!







), and there may be some extenuating circumstance in this case. (This is assuming it's even true. There *are* those who would say something like that just for the shock value!







) Anyway, that's my 2 pennies!


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## Zanymom (Sep 2, 2003)

More info I found out about this lady.

I talked to the person again who works with her, and asked some more ?'s. I asked "Could it be that she just said that she did EBF, and now mentioned her son is 11?" He said "no, she told us that she still BF him. Except that she doesn't produce milk anymore, and she calls it "nubbing". She says she does it just to give him comfort and to have a bonding experience with her son."

I guess another co-worker told her that was child abuse, and she got really upset. But now that makes it seem even weirder to me. I don't know what she is thinking, but I don't think this is good for the boy.


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## Eggie (Aug 7, 2003)

Yesterday I was talking to my neighboor's daughter, she's 11 years old, and she was telling me about this kid, also 11, who was spreading the word in her school that she was a bisexual... I was amazed of such a situation at their age (I'm 33 years old and when I was 11 I still was playing with dolls







) , she also told me that many of her classmates had already had some kind of sexual intimacy with others so certainly it is an age in which kids become so aware of sexuality, even morbid about it. Would be interesting to hear how this mom handles her boy's adolescence. Haven't heard about any case like this before. For sure it is uncommon.


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## smittenmom (Mar 2, 2003)

Quote:

I talked to the person again who works with her, and asked some more ?'s. I asked "Could it be that she just said that she did EBF, and now mentioned her son is 11?" He said "no, she told us that she still BF him. Except that she doesn't produce milk anymore, and she calls it "nubbing". She says she does it just to give him comfort and to have a bonding experience with her son."
Okay, I'm going to say it... that's weird. I know, I know--I shouldn't throw stones, but c'mon... 11 YEARS OLD?! I agree that kids that age are very aware of sexuality. He must be at least starting to be aware of the girls in his class, and what kind of questions would that raise in his mind, comparing his mother's "nubbing" with his curiosity about girls? Sorry, maybe it's not ideal that breasts are sexualized in our society, but it's the truth, and a child cannot grow up in our culture without knowing that (through advertising, magazines, etc.).

I don't think I'd go so far as to call it abuse, but I think this woman should find a new way to bond with her son.


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## nataliekat (Dec 3, 2002)

Smittenmom, I'm with you. Of course we don't want to judge other people's choices. But I personally have a problem with that.

First of all, I find it highly unlikely that it's even true. Second of all, I find it highly unlikely that it will NOT cause a problem in this woman's relationship with her son.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Um, that bothers me a lot. I understand the big "Political Correctness" urge to shut our mouths and let people do whatever the heck they want, which is usually the best thing to do, but I think that at the very least, someone should talk to this woman. Surely she can find more age appropriate ways to snuggle/comfort/bond with her child.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

When I was reading the OP and the update, I was thinking that maybe the 11 year old is not developmentally normal so perhaps that is why the mother continues to nurse.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

The next relevent question for me then is what is the developmental age of the child?

I would think by 11 that there are other ways to provide comfort: hugs being the easiest and best one IMO.


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## Aloe (Nov 23, 2001)

11yrs is, for me, too old to BF. There family could be totally legit but it seems sketchy to me. I didn't date at age 11, but there were kids going on group dates. A 13yr girl in my sisters class was pregnant, and it she was not raped.

Also, I agree breasts are 1st for nursing, but I happen to like my breasts in a sexual way and when my youngest is 11yrs old by goodness my breasts will be for me and my husband only







I cherish every (okay most) nursing moments, but I remember when feeling touched out wasn't an issue!


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Wow! That would be one healthy kid! I don't know about LLL, but I would support it. If EBF doesn't fit into our culture, then it is the culture that needs to change, not the EBF.

If a kid finds out that foot-rubbing is sometimes used as foreplay, it shouldn't make him feel weird about his mother rubbing his feet. Neither breasts nor feet "become" sexual when a child reaches puberty and realizes that feet and breasts (along with every other body part) are sometimes incorporated in foreplay.

Breasts are for making milk and feeding children. Breastfeeding never becomes unhealthy.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by smittenmom_
*Okay, I'm going to say it... that's weird. I know, I know--I shouldn't throw stones, but c'mon... 11 YEARS OLD?! I agree that kids that age are very aware of sexuality. He must be at least starting to be aware of the girls in his class, and what kind of questions would that raise in his mind, comparing his mother's "nubbing" with his curiosity about girls? Sorry, maybe it's not ideal that breasts are sexualized in our society, but it's the truth, and a child cannot grow up in our culture without knowing that (through advertising, magazines, etc.).

I don't think I'd go so far as to call it abuse, but I think this woman should find a new way to bond with her son.*

I hate to say it, but I agree. She's not even producing milk anymore so technically it is NOT breastfeeding.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Breast-nurturing, then. Milk or no milk, it is not harmful.


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## Firemom (Nov 21, 2001)

I really didn't have any milk the last few months of nursing my dd, so I don't think that is an issue either.

I just don't really know if I beleive this 11 year old is really nursing. It's just very very unusual. I am definitely an EN advocate too


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I don't know...I really can't go off third hand info very well...I think after it goes so far down the chain it isn't always good info.

Some Alaskan Natives nurse until that age and it isn't uncommon among some of them to nurse at that age.

I have read of a few cases of women nursing children at an older age due to extremely bad allergies as in the child simply could not eat hardly any food without a reaction.

While I wouldn't want to still be nursing at that age I can't really judge someone, especially when I don't know anything about the situation.


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## UlrikeDG (Sep 4, 2002)

I don't think you can judge one way or the other based purely on the fact that they are still nursing. Still nursing *may* be yet another way that an otherwise disfunctional relationship is manifesting itself. Or, this could just be a couple who reaches the far end of the bell curve for the age of natural weaning.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*Breast-nurturing, then. Milk or no milk, it is not harmful.*
I'm all for EBF, and I have to disagree. It could be harmful. I don't think there's really enough information to judge this case, but I think in some cases it could be harmful.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

My dp was taking an anthropology class when I got pg and in it, he learned that primates wean at puberty. The chemical onset of puberty for humans is between age 5 and 10. Considering that many native peoples breastfeed, or breat nurture to age 10 or 11, I do not find myself in a postition to judge their relationship, especially, as abimommy has said, off third hand info.
Lauren


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by AnnMarie_
*It could be harmful. I don't think there's really enough information to judge this case, but I think in some cases it could be harmful.*
How? How could it harm? The only problem I can imagine a breastfed 11 yr old having is people *telling him* it's harmful. The people need to change, not the breastfeeding.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*How? How could it harm? The only problem I can imagine a breastfed 11 yr old having is people *telling him* it's harmful. The people need to change, not the breastfeeding.*
That is one way. Let's face it, life is hard, kids are cruel, people don't understand breastfeeding babies, never mind 11 year olds. Does that mean that people shouldn't do it to please those? Of course not. But I think you have to weigh the pros and the cons and I personally don't see any pros to letting a child suck on the breast for comfort at 11 years old. There are many other ways to show love and affection and I can't imagine any 11 year old even wanting to do this. I wonder if this woman that says she is doing this isn't just telling a story?

The other thing that would concern me is at 11 it could be emotionally damaging. My daughter is 10 and going through puberty. I couldn't imagine nursing her, she wouldn't want to. I don't think most child would want to at that age. I have to wonder what it could do to a young boy that's going through puberty.

It's weird being on this side of the argument. I'm usually the one saying that there's nothing wrong with EBF and it should continue as long as mutually desired, but something just doesn't seem right with this situation. I can't see an 11 year old boy wanting to suck on his mother's breast. But I think it's OK to feel really strongly about something like breastfeeding, but still realize that maybe it's not always the best thing. I think sometimes we have such strong feelings that it's hard to say yeah, maybe that's not such a great thing.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zanymom_
*
I guess another co-worker told her that was child abuse, and she got really upset. But now that makes it seem even weirder to me. I don't know what she is thinking, but I don't think this is good for the boy.*
This is exactly what makes me think the story may not be true. Come on, people call social services for nursing 3 year olds. :LOL But nobody is going to call on a woman nursing her 11 year old?


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

From the boy's POV, I doubt anyone would know. I know that when DS was "still" nursing at 4, his preschool teachers and pals didn't know. It wasn't as if he nursed like a newborn or while we were out. When it's tailing off as they get older it tends to be a comfort/quiet-moment/going-to-sleep sort of thing. At least that's how it's been for me, twice.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by AnnMarie_
*I personally don't see any pros to letting a child suck on the breast for comfort at 11 years old. ... at 11 it could be emotionally damaging. ... I have to wonder what it could do to a young boy that's going through puberty. ... something just doesn't seem right with this situation.*
I feel very strongly that children should be allowed to self-wean at whatever age they are ready. How could EBF be emotionally damaging? What do you imagine EBF could possibly do to a young boy who *might be* starting to go through puberty? (11 seems a little young to me for a boy to be going through puberty.) I honestly think that the reason this doesn't "seem right" to you is simply because you are not used to seeing it, or even thinking about the idea. People have the exact same reaction to three year olds nursing, or even seven month olds nursing, simply because they are not used to seeing it or even considering it a possibility. Think of all those native people that veganmama mentioned, who are breastfeeding their 11 year olds, and see if you can get used to the idea.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*I feel very strongly that children should be allowed to self-wean at whatever age they are ready. How could EBF be emotionally damaging? What do you imagine EBF could possibly do to a young boy who *might be* starting to go through puberty? (11 seems a little young to me for a boy to be going through puberty.) I honestly think that the reason this doesn't "seem right" to you is simply because you are not used to seeing it, or even thinking about the idea. People have the exact same reaction to three year olds nursing, or even seven month olds nursing, simply because they are not used to seeing it or even considering it a possibility. Think of all those native people that veganmama mentioned, who are breastfeeding their 11 year olds, and see if you can get used to the idea.*
No, that's not it at all. I just look at my 10 year old and couldn't imagine her, or any other child her age *wanting* to nurse. At that age why would they? I don't consider this EBF because it's not feeding, the mother has no milk.

What do I think it could do? I don't know, that's why I said I wonder. I didn't say it WAS damaging, I said it could be.

It has nothing to do with not being used to seeing an 11 year old nurse. I'm not used to seeing a 2 or 3 year old nurse. I'm the only one in real life that I know that has done it to 2 years old. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. 4 or 5, haven't see that either, but I don't think it's the same as 11.

This is JMO and I wouldn't do it, but if someone else wants to who am I to say they can't? Now if I had proof it did harm that would be another story, but I don't. Still, I do have to wonder......

I'd like to hear more about those that nurse to 10 or 11. veganmamma, can you provide us with more information?

I'm not the only one here that's said it concerned them. I'd also like to hear from the others why they feel the way they do.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*Think of all those native people that veganmama mentioned, who are breastfeeding their 11 year olds, and see if you can get used to the idea.*
I don't think you can really compare it with that. Things are much different here, the kids are much different here. I think it really does make a difference.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

A human being is a human being wherever you go in the world. It is certainly true that the culture is less supportive of EBF in this country, but that just means that the culture needs to change.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*A human being is a human being wherever you go in the world. It is certainly true that the culture is less supportive of EBF in this country, but that just means that the culture needs to change.*
It's not that simple. The people themselves are different, not just what goes on around them.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

In what way could people be *that* different, just based on their location, that they would have a different age of natural weaning?


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## Peppamint (Oct 19, 2002)

I have to say that it seems like a weird thought to me. I honestly cannot imagine myself nursing at 11... I was getting interested in boys and started my period at 12yo. I wanted to learn grown up things and I was enjoying learning how to be a peer with my parents.

I will admit that at one time, I thought nursing at 2 or 3yo was weird, and now I believe in EBF and child led weaning. My experiences and ideas are forever evolving as I learn more and educate myself. At this point, I just do think that 11 seems rather old.







Like others have mentioned, we don't know the specifics of that family's dynamics either so I guess we can't make a solid judgment.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by AnnMarie_
*No, that's not it at all. I just look at my 10 year old and couldn't imagine her, or any other child her age wanting to nurse. At that age why would they?*
My perfectly and healthy 20 yr old neice *secretly drank from a bottle* until the age of 10.










Only her * immediate * family knew. Kids know that it's not socially acceptable, but do it anyway because they have a strong need.

While I personally would not be comfortable doing it that long, I don't have a problem with others doing it.

I just weaned my 3.5 yr old son. I was hoping he'd self-wean by 3. I did NOT want to go to age 4. He would have easily gone to 5.







: My DH







on the other hand, would have been much more comfortable if I had weaned at 12 months.







I had to stand up to him to go this long and I'm proud of the 3 of us.









Some mothers do mother-led weaning at 2 (even though the child wants to keep going) or earlier... everybody is different.

This is a personal, personal thing.... I don't rush to judgement on it.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

Think of all those native people that veganmama mentioned, who are breastfeeding their 11 year olds, and see if you can get used to the idea.
I'm not sure how current this info would be. I live in an area w/many Ak Natives and I'm pretty sure this would not be acceptable to them. Perhaps in some of the smaller Native villages, yes. Perhaps it has something to do w/an inadequate diet. I really don't know. But, I know there are also some cultural issues about incest that have come up in the news-culturally acceptable or not?

Ok, huge issues and I sure don't have any answers. Just a thought that we may want to hold off on comparisons w/o having all the info.
Peace


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

I'd like to know just what native people where are nursing their 11 year olds. Not once in all the years I've been reading about this issue, and I am an SN* advocate, have I seen this as a commonly accepted practice.

A book about the Inuit I recently read through, written in the 50's I think, mentioned under a photo of a mom nursing that they usually nurse until 3.

A Brazelton book I had mentioned that moms in Mexico would have their otherwise weaned older children, as in 6 or so, come nurse for a minute while they nursed baby in order for the older children to get the benefits.

I've read of moms in Sweden going in to nurse a not quite ailing 6 year old (read that one in Mothering







).

I remember the quote Liz Baldwin used in her "So I Nursed Him Every 45 Minutes" from a Native American's writings describing his starting to learn to hunt when he was 6 and "... I had almost stopped chasing my mother for her milk."

Even Kathy Dettwyler's work indicates a biological range that goes up to 7 years of age, with the possibility of outliers of a couple of years I suppose. That only takes the age up to 9.

But I've never seen mention of it going until ages like 10 or 11. Surely something so shocking to the Western Anthropologist would be mentioned?

Please, I would really like to see the sources where this is described for any indigenous culture.









_*SN=Sustained Nursing, because nursing beyond infancy is normal, not "extended"_


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## somemama (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*
Breasts are for making milk and feeding children.*
And, since she's not making milk anymore......... ?







:


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Nope, sorry. I am quite sure that this child will suffer some form of psychological consequences from this.
Devrock, you are absolutely correct in saying that human beings are human beings, no matter where they are from. You are also correct in saying that it is society's problem, not the child/mother's problem, that we have issues with EBF. That cannot be argued. But why set your child up for serious psychological issues because you don't want to follow society's acceptable norms?

*I* strongly believe that people should walk around naked and free. It doesn't hurt me, it's totally natural, other human beings all over the world do it all the time. But would I put myself and my family through something so "normal" and "natural" to prove a point to society at the expense of our family and livelihoods? No. It's fantastic to want to change things and go against the grain to a certain extent, but what if a child started getting erections during breast sessions, for example, and suffered serious emotional consequences from these circumstances later in life?

There is just something not *right* about this family to begin with; maybe they are outcasts or something and don't care if they're child is an outcast, too, but I'll bet my last penny that this kid *will* grow up with psychological issues, whether it's because he's "nubbing" at age 11 or 12 or because his family is strange altogether. Who knows?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamajulie_
*And, since she's not making milk anymore......... ?







:*
I just meant that their primary function is making milk and feeding children. I meant that breasts are not inherently sexual. That doesn't mean that they can't have other legitimate uses. It doesn't mean they can't be used to stimulate your sexual partner, or to comfort your child.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*why set your child up for serious psychological issues because you don't want to follow society's acceptable norms?*
If I followed that logic, I would have to wean by six months, put my infant in a crib to sleep, circumcize, and follow all sorts of other mainstream standards that absolutely horrify me, all so that I could be sure that society would never make my child feel like a freak or like s/he was abused or neglected, simply because I practiced natural parenting.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*would I put myself and my family through something so "normal" and "natural" to prove a point to society at the expense of our family and livelihoods?*
I don't parent naturally in order to make a point to society. I do it because it is right for my child. I believe it is more important to do what is right for my child than it is to conform to society's standards.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*what if a child started getting erections during breast sessions, for example, and suffered serious emotional consequences from these circumstances later in life?*
It should be dealt with the same way that it would be dealt with if a child started getting erections when his mother rubbed his feet or his back, or ran her fingers through his hair, or hugged or kissed him.

I firmly belive that it is essential to a child's physical and emotional health to allow the child to self-wean. If society's attitude is going to cause phychological problems, then it is *society* that needs to change! Not me and not my child!


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

I also think this is a bit extreme and that it's going a little far to call it "natural". Like Meiri, I've read that anthropologists estimate the natural human age of weaning to be 7 (based upon comparisons with other primates). An 11 yr old nursing is not normal culturally or biologically.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

There is a range of normalcy. The child doesn't have to wean exactly at age 7. I think age 3 is within the range of normalcy, 4 years earlier than age 7. It would then follow that age 11, 4 years later than age 7, would also fall within the range of normalcy. All children are different. The natural thing to do is to allow each child to wean at whatever age s/he is ready.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mrzmeg_
*I also think this is a bit extreme and that it's going a little far to call it "natural". Like Meiri, I've read that anthropologists estimate the natural human age of weaning to be 7 (based upon comparisons with other primates). An 11 yr old nursing is not normal culturally or biologically.*
The funny thing to me is that probably the majority of people in the US think nursing a 1.5 year old is "not natural" and "a bit extreme." Nevermind a 4 year old.







:

In the end it doesn't really matter what everyone's opinion is.... everything is relative. It just depends on the family involved.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

I've thought about this some more since my first post. The more I think about it, the more I feel it's just not right. Specifically, I'd like to weigh in on the subject of wether it is *always* best to let the child decide when to wean. Two points:

1) If this story is true, I would seriously question wether continuing the "nursing" relationship for this long is truely the boy's choice. As unpleasant as it is to think about, there are parents who will manipulate their children in an unhealthy way in order to satisfy their own needs. A powerful parent can cause a great deal of confusion for a child. (Think about the conflicted feelings of abused children, for example.) The boy's desire to continue the "nubbing" may not be based truely on his own needs, but rather on some fear of rejecting his mother (or having her reject him). This is why I don't buy the point that some have made that this is just an extreme version of a 4 year old nursling. No -- a 4 year old is still very naturally self-focused, and will take what he needs, if allowed to, (or reject what he doesn't need), with little regard for the feelings of his mother or anyone else. An 11 year old, on the other hand, can understand his place in his family, his peer group, his society. He *must* have some thought about what this relationship means in these contexts! I just find it hard to imagine that there isn't some emotional control being exerted by the mother in this situation. The fact that she brags about this relationship at work suggests as much. (Or it suggests that she's lying for the thrill of it.







: )

2) For the second point, lets assume that the mother is *not* controlling, and that an 11 year old nurseling is simply on the far end of the "normal" scale. Which would be the more loving action? a) Allowing the son to continue this behavior and _telling others about it_ in a culture which views such things as sexually devient and damaging (and could land the son in a foster home and/or on the witness stand against his mother). b) Gentle weaning accompanied by plenty of non-nursing affection and an effort to meet the needs of a pre-teen more directly. (i.e. Is he stressed about something? Does he need to learn some coping strategies for shyness or anxiety? Does he need to be in a different situation at school? etc.) Love is an *action* and it looks different at ages 1 or 4 or 11. I would argue that bucking the culture (and bragging about it) to such an extreme degree - that is, to a degree which could cause *much* more damage to the child than weaning - is not a loving action.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Stephanie, ITA







You said exactly what I was *trying* to say much more eloquently.
Devrock, your point about being totally accepted in this culture... ie, circumcision, breastfeeding until six months, etc. etc..... is on one end of the extreme.... nursing an 11 year old is at the other end of the extreme. I'm just saying that it's *not* really acceptable to nurse an 11 year old preteen in a society that is so intently focused on breasts and sexuality in a very unhealthy way. YES, I agree, it is society that has to change. I never said that we live in a great, open minded society. But to be so extreme about child-led weaning - to the point where a kid could be, what, fifteen before he or she gives up boobies? - is psychologically damaging in the culture we are living in. You can't change society and everyone around you. I wish that we could, but we can't. There is something strange about a family who is so blatantly extremist in their view of child-led weaning.


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

If a mother is intelligent enough to trust her child's natural need to breastfeed (even at age 11) then I don't believe that she would be ignorant enough to brag about it (for shock value) to co-workers. There are too many signs that this is the latest urban myth, IMHO.

Mother_Sunshine
(child-led weaning/nursing my 6.5 yr old)


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## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*You can't change society and everyone around you. I wish that we could, but we can't.*
If this statement were true then there would still be separate drinking fountains for "blacks and whites"....women would not be allowed to wear shorts because showing skin above the ankles is obscene and vulgar...children would still be spanked by teachers in school....the list goes on and on.

Society has constantly been changing and readjusting since the beginning of "society".


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

I recall a story about a mother who was nursing her 8 yo. This little girl had originally weaned herself at 2.5 yrs but decided that she wanted to start nursing again when her Mama gave birth to her third child. So the mama let her, even showed hher how to latch. Could this be the case with the 11 year old?

With respect, my question is this: Is it healthy and in the best intrest of the child to give him or her whatever he/she wants? Do children not need reasonable limits? My SIL is 22 and married and still sucks her thumb. Is a nursing 22 year old still acceptable? If I child never decides to wean, do we just go on nursing forever? Where are the limits? Are there limits?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*You can't change society and everyone around you. I wish that we could, but we can't.*
As mother_sunshine pointed out, yes we can. And we must. And the way to do it is for MORE mothers to breastfeed their older children. Openly. Blatantly. All that needs to happen is people just need to get used to seeing it. That's all it would take.

Quote:

_Originally posted by pumpkinhead_
*With respect, my question is this: Is it healthy and in the best intrest of the child to give him or her whatever he/she wants? Do children not need reasonable limits? My SIL is 22 and married and still sucks her thumb. Is a nursing 22 year old still acceptable? If I child never decides to wean, do we just go on nursing forever? Where are the limits? Are there limits?*
I think it is healthy and in the best interest of a child to grant a reasonable request such as breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is so amazingly good for the child! It is incredibly healthy, and even without the milk factor, it is good and healthy emotionally. Yes, you can still set a reasonable limit, but the limit is not a specific age, the limit is this: when the mother no longer wishes to breastfeed. As long as both mother and child still mutually desire to continue the breastfeeding relationship, then what on earth is the problem?


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

Breastfeeding is so amazingly good for the child!
I totally and 100% agree w/you. But, I am really uncomfortable w/this situation. IF it's even a real situation, ya know? But, anyway, back from OT, this 11 y.o. is not breastfeeding. There is no feeding going on at all. Why can't the mom do some of those other comfort activities you've mentioned; ie. rubbing feet/hair, etc.?
ANd, I think that at 11 y.o. they're moving into a preteen category.
I dunno. I teach school and I just know that if any 5th grader at my school, nice kids w/nice parents, "nubbed" his mom, they would just be mocked. No, that's not right, but that IS reality and why martyr a child for your own beliefs. Choose something that only affects your own social standing and self esteem.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Something unsettles me about an 11 yr old "nursing" or "nubbing". It might not even be true. and like one post says, people call social services because of nursing a 3 yr old, surely if this is knowledgable around this lady's office, someone would have given a call into child services.

I understand that our society sexualizes the breast. i get that. And i understand that in other cultures this might be considered "normal". however, this isnt one of those cultures. and i have a13 yr old son, who was once 11. I would be very uncomfortable with nubbing him. and he wouldnt even consider it. I agree with child led weaning, but 11? there are no other ways to comfort soothe and nurture?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by BusyMommy_
*this 11 y.o. is not breastfeeding. There is no feeding going on at all.*
When I say breastfeeding, I refer to the act of suckling at the breast. Call it breast-nurturing, if you prefer.

Quote:

_Originally posted by BusyMommy_
*Why can't the mom do some of those other comfort activities you've mentioned; ie. rubbing feet/hair, etc.?*
She could. And maybe she is doing those things as well. But why shouldn't she breast-nurture? There's nothing wrong with it.

Quote:

_Originally posted by BusyMommy_
*ANd, I think that at 11 y.o. they're moving into a preteen category.*
With all due respect, so what? Why is that an issue? Just because the older the child gets the less common it is to continue at the breast? That doesn't make it harmful.

Quote:

_Originally posted by BusyMommy_
*I teach school and I just know that if any 5th grader at my school, nice kids w/nice parents, "nubbed" his mom, they would just be mocked.*
It's the child's choice. If the teasing makes the child want to stop breast-nurturing, then the child is free to stop. It's the same as any other teasing situation. If a boy is teased for playing with dolls, he may decide to stop playing with dolls, or he may decide to continue playing with dolls and deal with the teasing. Or a child could decide to be "in the closet" about breast-nurturing or playing with dolls.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sweetbaby3_
*I understand that our society sexualizes the breast. i get that. And i understand that in other cultures this might be considered "normal". however, this isnt one of those cultures.*
We have to fight and defy the culture in order to change the culture.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

You know, I think we can all agree that we respect each other's diff. opinions so I'm just kind of throwing in a rhetorical here.
I live in an area w/a lot of diff. cultures that often clash. One of the things that's being debated/discussed is whether a culture has the right to define sexual abuse differently; ie. is it okay for elders to force sexual relations on younger members of their extended families--of their community. I say absolutely NOT! But, it's accepted for those people. So, when you say

Quote:

We have to fight and defy the culture in order to change the culture.
it scares me. EBF folks are definitely a minority. I do believe that society needs to be more accepting and open minded.
But, 11 years old IS out of the norm.

IN the case I mentioned, that is also out of the norm. Who, really, is to say that they don't have the right to also expect the dominant cultural group to become more flexible.

Dunno. Apples and oranges, but it makes me wonder. That boy KNOWS he'd be an outcast if he told his classmates b/c it's the message our society sends. Right or wrong.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Rape is socially unacceptable because it's WRONG! It's immoral! It is forceful and nonconsensual and violent! Sustained breastfeeding (thank you for that term), on the other hand, is socially unacceptable because we live in a warped, twisted, backwards, depraved culture. I fight for what is really right, not what society declares to be right. When something that is right is considered by society to be wrong, I fight society! When something that is wrong is considered by society to be wrong, I fight the thing that is wrong (in this case, rape). When something that is wrong is considered by society to be right (for example, circumcision) I fight the thing that is wrong (circumcision), AND I fight society.

>But, 11 years old IS out of the norm.

That doesn't make it wrong. Homebirth is also out of the norm in this culture.

>Who, really, is to say that they don't have the right to also expect the dominant cultural group to become more flexible.

Because NO ONE has the right to force another person to have sex!

There is no parallel between these two issues. Breastfeeding is consensual and mutually beneficial. Rape is nonconsensual and incredibly damaging and harmful!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

But, you see, THAT is YOUR opinion. I happen to agree. Some people are repulsed by it. Some people are outraged that a woman would NIP and think it should not be allowed. There are simply SO many variations and opinions.

Re: the other case I mentioned. Yes, I would call that rape and slap the old man in jail for life. BUT, in their eyes it is acceptable and consensual. They have lived w/this norm for many generations and are outraged that WE are judging them for their behavior.

There simply is not a universally agreed upon definition of "right" for any subject anywhere.

So...nursing an 11 y.o.
Odd IMHO, but I guess if the boy is happy and will look back upon it fondly when he's a wellrounded adult, go for it.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:

Yes, you can still set a reasonable limit, but the limit is not a specific age, the limit is this: when the mother no longer wishes to breastfeed. As long as both mother and child still mutually desire to continue the breastfeeding relationship, then what on earth is the problem?
Devrock,

I understand your point and I do agree with you. If breastfeeding is mutually desirable then there really is nothing wrong with it. (Even if the child in question is 11 and having never nursed an 11 year old, I dunno how I'd feel about it)

My point was really : at what age is EBF not acceptable? Is there a magical 'cut-off' age? When is a 'child' not a 'child' anymore. Also, it IS O.K. for a Mama to NOT want to nurse an 11 y.o. isn't it?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

>>But, you see, THAT is YOUR opinion. ... There are simply SO many variations and opinions.

All opinions are not equal. Every opinion does not deserve equal respect. Rape isn't wrong because I say it's wrong -- it's wrong because it's absolutely, universally, objectively wrong! I believe that some things are RIGHT and some things are WRONG, independently of whether the majority of a population THINKS they are right or wrong. I don't think the people you mentioned are going to get very far trying to convince others that rape is right. On the other hand, I think I eventually will make progress convincing others that Sustained Breastfeeding is right -- since it truly IS RIGHT -- I think others will come around when they get past their hang-ups.

Also, I am hopeful that we will eventually convince the people you mentioned that rape is WRONG -- once we can get them to get past THEIR culture.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pumpkinhead_
*at what age is EBF not acceptable? Is there a magical 'cut-off' age? When is a 'child' not a 'child' anymore. Also, it IS O.K. for a Mama to NOT want to nurse an 11 y.o. isn't it?*
I don't believe SBF ever becomes unacceptable, as long as it is mutually desired by mother & child. I don't believe there is any magical cut-off age. I don't believe it matters if the child is not a child anymore. Once the child is no longer a child, then they are definitely capable of consent, so it can't (or shouldn't) be considered unethical.

Absolutely, it is OK for a mother to not want to breastfeed an 11 year old.


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

Quote:

Sustained breastfeeding (thank you for that term), on the other hand, is socially unacceptable because we live in a warped, twisted, backwards, depraved culture.
Could you cite sources pointing to a society where SN'ing an eleven year old is seen as acceptable behavior?
Someone mentioned Alaskan natives, but a mama who lives there said she had never heard of that. I haven't been able to find any resources about it. From my own reading, most children in hunting/gathering cultures (at least ones that are still around) wean when the mother is pregnant with the next child, which often happens after the mother's menstrual cycle returns around 18 months pp.
I'm honestly curious.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mrzmeg_
*Could you cite sources pointing to a society where SN'ing an eleven year old is seen as acceptable behavior?*
No, I cannot. However, mothers have told me that they breastfeed 10 and 12 year olds *even in this country*, where they have NO support, and that's just among my tiny circle of acquaintances. I have to assume that in other cultures, where SBF is more accepted, there would be a lot more mothers breastfeeding 10 and 12 year olds. I would guess that there is no society in which the *average* mother breastfeeds to age 10. Probably in natural societies, the average mother breastfeeds to about age 6 or 7, with a few women on each extreme: a few women breastfeeding only to age 2 or 3, and a few women breastfeeding to age 10/11.

Hopefully someone here has solid data to backup my guesswork?


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

I would like to respectfully say that this is much more than "going against the flow" and tring to change society's view of SBF, homebirthing, or the like. I truly cannot believe that this is any longer consensual behavior, or mututally desirable for this kid. If it is, then I really feel there is something warped going on in that family. I also disagree that breasts are not inherently sexual. I fervently hope that this really is a "urban myth". I do think it is wrong and, if true, will ultimately mess up this child's future sexual health.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Why can't you believe that it is consensual? I can't imagine someone forcing an 11 year old to breastfeed against his will (that would be wrong, of course). I can't even imagine it being physically possible. You can lead a mouth to nipple, but you can't make it suck. If it is consensual, which I think (and hope!) it is, why is it warped? What is warped about it? I have to completely disagree with you if you think breasts are sex organs. They simply are NOT. They are not genitalia. They are mammary glands. They are no more inherently sexual than legs or ear lobes, although all three can be incorporated in sexual play. The fact that something arouses men or is used in foreplay does not make it inherently a sexual organ. Breasts are meant for offspring. Is there some other reason for considering SBF "wrong?" Since I do not believe breastfeeding is sexual, I do not believe it will mess up a child's future sexual health.


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

From anthropologist Meredith Small's 'Our Babies, Ourselves':

Quote:

Weaning in other cultures tells a similar story---the introduction of solid food and then either a gradual or abrupt cessation of mother's milk as the primary food source. In many cases, weaning is culturally mandated when the child is forced to stop nursing because the mother is pregnant again; many cultures have a taboo against nursing during pregnancy...Some cultures have a taboo against sex during nursing, and a mother will wean so that she can resume sexual relations.
From Katherine Dettweyler:

Quote:

In societies where children are allowed to nurse "as long as they want" they usually self-wean, with no arguments or emotional trauma, between 3 and 4 years of age.
She goes on to say (based on comparisons with primates):

Quote:

The minimum predicted age for a natural age of weaning in humans is 2.5 years, with a maximum of 7.0 years.
I guess my point is that most societies---no matter how close or removed from 'nature'---have cultural expectations that guide when children wean.
This child is nursing far beyond cultural and biological norms; there have to be some major outside influences. I agree that she can't force him, though she can certainly encourage him. Why does he still need to nurse?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

OK, I'm too lazy to read any of this thread, so I'll just say that I don't see anything wrong with bfing a child of any age, in and of itself, as long as the child wants to continue. For me, I think I'd call it quits at age 4 or 5, but that's just me.

I don't think bf is harmful emotionally to any children of any age or gender. I think it's good if a boy bfs when he will be old enough to remember it! The benefits NEVER end, even if there is no more milk left. I am pretty sure my dd doesn't draw any milk when she nurses, but I know she still needs to, otherwise she would quit, kwim?


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

A common point running thru the some of these posts is that breasts are not inherently sexual. But they are, in humans. The nipples are red (in Caucasians) or darker than the surrounding skin (in people of color) to resemble labia and the breasts are constantly round (as opposed to just round when lactating) to resemble the buttocks. It was an adaptation to the fact that human women stand upright and need to offer some sexual cues on the front of the body. That is the theory anyway, according to Desmond Morris in The Naked Ape...


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Nipples may resemble labia in color and breasts may resemble buttocks in shape, but that doesn't mean that their purpose is sexual. The mouth resembles the vagina more than breasts do. Is the mouth inherently genitalia?


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*Is the mouth inherently genitalia?*

My dh would like to convince me of that....

_ducks and runs away after making a joke during this incredible discussion_


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

as would mine
:LOL

Really, though, that's fascinating.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*Why can't you believe that it is consensual? I can't imagine someone forcing an 11 year old to breastfeed against his will (that would be wrong, of course). I can't even imagine it being physically possible. You can lead a mouth to nipple, but you can't make it suck. If it is consensual, which I think (and hope!) it is, why is it warped? What is warped about it? I have to completely disagree with you if you think breasts are sex organs. They simply are NOT. They are not genitalia. They are mammary glands. They are no more inherently sexual than legs or ear lobes, although all three can be incorporated in sexual play. The fact that something arouses men or is used in foreplay does not make it inherently a sexual organ. Breasts are meant for offspring. Is there some other reason for considering SBF "wrong?" Since I do not believe breastfeeding is sexual, I do not believe it will mess up a child's future sexual health.*
I believe that it is possible for the breastfeeding relationship to be dysfunctional. IMO, it is wrong to assume that the BF relationship could absolutely NOT be dysfunctional but it is also that BF at 11 is always dysfunctional.

I would prefer not to give an example on a open forum but I have seen ways in which the breastfeeding relationship was not healthy, even in younger children and I have seen ways in which breastfeeding was "forced" by means of coercion and manipulation.

That said, I'm a "assume the best kind" of person, especially with things like third hand info and I think it is possible for this to be a healthy situation. Like I said, perhaps the child is not developmentally normal.

Also, when someone mentioned the norms for an 11 year old in this culture, I think you forget the very likely possibility that this kid is not totally exposed to the culture. Perhaps they home school or he goes to an alternative school, which shelters him from some of the early sexual stuff and all the teasing and such.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I think we should assume that it is a healthy breastfeeding relationship unless there is some evidence to the contrary. At this point we have no reason to believe that anything wrong is going on here.

The single aspect that people are judging is the child's age. What I am hearing seems to be mostly knee-jerk reactions to an unusual situation. I haven't yet heard a reasonable explanation of why an 11 year old shouldn't breastfeed.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I would much rather hear of an 11-yr-old who bfs than of a baby who has never been bfed.

Strange how our culture calls the most perfect food "abuse" after a certain age; I think it's a lot more abusive to withhold it.

I'm sure whatever disapproving thoughts we may think about this kid, the majority of American society thinks of us.

Let the child decide...


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

Is the mouth inherently genitalia?






























Sorry Dev, couldnt pass on that one. I am part of the warped society you speak of.....

Dev, I do see what your saying, but as a mother of a 13yr old son who was a champion nurser, i not only wouldnt be comfortable with it, i would have to wonder why my 6th grader needed to "nub". Assuming this boy is developmentally on target, one would have to assume what on earth is going on that he would even want to nub in the first place, given the society we live in. My son knows he was nursed and smiles when i tell him how much time he spent at the boob, but even though i teach my son not to view women as sex objects, to be a kind respectful young man (oh, and he is!) it would really be a bit weird if he was still nursing when he was in middle school. Can you at least see where it might be a bit strange? and if for some medical reason he could only eat breastmilk, i would pump and he would be drinking it from a thermos. does that make me the weird one?








Lisa


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sweetbaby3_
*i would have to wonder why my 6th grader needed to "nub". Assuming this boy is developmentally on target, one would have to assume what on earth is going on that he would even want to nub in the first place...it would really be a bit weird if he was still nursing when he was in middle school.*
Most of the people in this country would say the exact same things about a three year old breastfeeding -- or younger!

Quote:

_Originally posted by sweetbaby3_
*Can you at least see where it might be a bit strange?*
I can see that it might be a bit unusual. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

So, by your logic, Devrock, if my 18 yr old wants to suckle "one last time" before he moves into his college dorm, I should let him? Give me a friekin' break. It is clear that you are shut out to everyone else's sensibilities and ways of thinking outside your own. I am out of this increasingly surreal and ridiculous argument.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*So, by your logic, Devrock, if my 18 yr old wants to suckle "one last time" before he moves into his college dorm, I should let him?*
Only if you want to. I'm just saying it's not immoral. I really can't see that situation happening, though.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:

Most of the people in this country would say the exact same things about a three
year old breastfeeding -- or younger!
But we're not saying this about a 3, 4, 5 or 6 year old. We're referring to an eleven year old here, a pre-adolescent as opposed to a child. What if this 11 yo wasn't 'nubbing' but sucking his thumb instead, or drinking from a bottle? Could he or she not be using this as an emotional crutch to avoid deeper issues?

The point I tried to make earlier was that most kids left to self wean do just that by the age of 2-6
,

Quote:

Katherine Dettweyler:

quote:
In societies where children are allowed to nurse "as long as they want" they usually self-wean, with no arguments or emotional trauma,between 3 and 4 years of age.
What if this was a case, like the one I described in an earlier case (about an 8 year old), where the boy decided after weaning, he'd like to start nursing again? In the case of the 8 year old, it was due to jealousy and the want of attention. I really don't believe this should be encouraged as the child is substituting one type of attention for another. IMO it would be better to just make an effort to spend more one on one time with the child. There are other ways to nuture!


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

Thought I would chime in. And hopefully I will not offend, but I think that maybe some people are thinking this, but don't want to say what I am going to say.

I don't think it is appropriate to nurse an 11 yo. There are major developmental differences between a 3 yo (or even a 7 yo) and an almost teenager. Puberty, even in boys this age, is already beginning or is in full force. I just don't see it as being a developmentally appropriate activity to be encouraging on the part of the mother and I cannot fathom an otherwise developmentally normal child of that age wanting to or needing to "nub".

If this case is true, which I have doubts about, than there are other issues going on and I do believe that this could have other long term phychological ramifications, especially if the child finds out later (if he doesn't already know) that he and his mother were engaged in what can easily be construed by others in our society, as a socially and sexually deviate activity.

Now to my more controversial thoughts:

To the arguement that breasts are not inherantly sexual, I disagree. I view breasts as a multi-purpose "organ". Yes, breasts are primarily for feeding children...that is why they make milk. But breasts are complex in their phsiological make-up and breast-feeding by it evolutionary and biological nature is usually an enjoyable and often sensual experience. It feels good. There is a biological purpose for that in that it allows us to have a bonding and intimate relationship with our children (and therefore will encourage us to protect and nuture them, which allows for the propogation of our species). Sensuality and sexuality are very closely linked and are often difficult to distiguish from one another...I think that is why our society in general is so weird about breastfeeding beyond infancy. I wholeheartedly disagree that if we enjoy breastfeeding then that means it is "wrong". I EBF both of my children. But there comes a natural end to this developmental stage of childrearing and IMO, this pair is LONG past their "expiration" date.

To put it bluntly, we release hormones when we nurse our children that provide us with a physical "payoff" (sense of calm, relaxation, love) and in many people the potential for sexual arousal. I certainly am able to get sexual enjoyment from breast stimulation by my partner that I just don't get from getting my feet rubbed (without getting to graphic, yes it can take me all the way). And I don't think it is "all in my head" (i.e. that because our brains are our primary sexual organ that I can convince myself that it is pleasurable and therefore can "preform").

She may not have milk any more, but she certainly could be benefiting from the hormonal release that comes with the physical act of putting breast to mouth. That, in my opinion is not appropriate when we are dealing with a child entering their second decade of life and into their own blossoming sexuality.

IMO, like anything else that involves sensuality and intamacy, breastfeeding/nurturing CAN be sexual and CAN be used as a form of abuse, whether intentionally or unintentionally (I don't want to believe that this mother is intentionally hurting her child). And I also take exception to the premise that you cannot "force" a child to breastfeed/nurture. How is it different than coersing a child to be sexually/sensually intimate in other ways (at least in theory)? I think that the young men abused by some priests over the course of the last 1/2 century (and longer) would disagree that you cannot be coerced or forced to do things you don't want to do, ESPECIALLY by people in the position of power/authority/or love.

This case, if true, just leads me to wonder what the long term ramifications will be for this child and his relationship with his mother and other people he may choose to be intimate with later in life, as I do not view it as a healthy and age/developmentally appropriate activity and could potentially be very harmful...


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Sadean-very interesting points. Well presented and valid


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pumpkinhead_
*But we're not saying this about a 3, 4, 5 or 6 year old. We're referring to an eleven year old*
I'm just saying, if we draw the line somewhere between age 7 and age 11, then who's to say that other people can't draw the line much lower, say between age 2 and age 3? Either it's other people's business to decide when a mother should wean, or it isn't. We can't be hypocrites. If there is something inappropriate behind a child's breastfeeding, that can only be determined on an individual, case-by-case evaluation. It cannot be determined by age alone. It's like trying to determine when someone is ready for sex. Some people are ready at 13. Others aren't ready at 30! There's a WIDE age range for a lot of things.

I personally feel that only the individual knows when he is ready to wean, just as only the individual knows when he is ready for sex. Everyone is different.

Quote:

_Originally posted by pumpkinhead_
*a pre-adolescent as opposed to a child*
Most people in this country would say about a 3 or 4 year old "this isn't a baby we're talking about any more, it's a child. It's no longer appropriate."

Quote:

_Originally posted by pumpkinhead_
*The point I tried to make earlier was that most kids left to self wean do just that by the age of 2-6*
The key word in that sentence is "most."

Quote:

_Originally posted by pumpkinhead_
*IMO it would be better to just make an effort to spend more one on one time with the child. There are other ways to nuture!*
Yes there are, but I still don't see anything wrong with this way.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*sexually deviate activity*
Breastfeeding is not a sexual activity!

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*breasts are complex in their phsiological make-up and breast-feeding by it evolutionary and biological nature is usually an enjoyable and often sensual experience. It feels good.*
It feels good to have my earlobes sucked on, too. That does not make ears sex organs.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*there comes a natural end to this developmental stage of childrearing and IMO, this pair is LONG past their "expiration" date.*
I do not think breastfeeding has an expiration date. Yes, there is a natural end to the breastfeeding stage, and it is at a different age for every child!

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*I certainly am able to get sexual enjoyment from breast stimulation by my partner that I just don't get from getting my feet rubbed (without getting to graphic, yes it can take me all the way). And I don't think it is "all in my head" (i.e. that because our brains are our primary sexual organ that I can convince myself that it is pleasurable and therefore can "preform").*
Nerves run all through our bodies. I can get just as aroused having my ears sucked on as I can by having my breasts sucked on.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*IMO, like anything else that involves sensuality and intamacy, breastfeeding/nurturing CAN be sexual and CAN be used as a form of abuse*
If a child is being coerced to stimulate his mother's breasts/nipples the way a sexual lover does (and I would not call it breastfeeding/nurturing, I would call it whatever you call it when a sexual lover stimulates a woman's breasts/nipples orally), then obviously that is wrong. However, there is absolutely no evidence that such a thing is going on in this case. You should not suspect the mother of such a thing just based on the fact that the child is older than usual. The most likely thing is that a healthy breastfeeding relationship has continued longer than usual.

It is the same as assuming that a mother is "getting off" by giving her child a massage. We all know massages can be sexual! And my goodness, when a mother changes a boy's diaper, she touches his penis! Now that's definitely a sexual organ!

I just don't think we should be jumping to conclusions. There is a whole lot of perfectly innocent contact between mother's and children's bodies. (Including kissing on the lips, which can certainly stimulate me sexually when my partner/lover and I do it -- but it's *completely* different when it's between a mother and child.)

I don't think we should get paranoid about it when there is no evidence of wrongdoing.

I think a lot of people here are letting themselves be influenced by this country's obsession with breasts, and by the way this society has completely inaccurately and inappropriately equated breasts with sex.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*I do not view it as a healthy and age/developmentally appropriate activity and could potentially be very harmful...*
I still don't see any evidence of that.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

This is a very thought-provoking discussion.

Devrock, you have made valid points. I don't agree with everything you've said, but you do make a very convincing argument.

To the rest of you ladies







, I just want to commend you all on your intelligent arguments. I've visited forums where people have been snide and snotty about issues such as these when there isn't any need. You can have an argument without getting angry about it and everyone here has been very respectful.

I just wanted to point that out and


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## veggiewolf (Apr 11, 2002)

I have read this thread with interest, and am so happy it hasn't turned into a flame fest!

This discussion reminded me of something I read recently, in _Geisha, A Life_ by Mineko Iwasaki. Iwasaki, at age 12, was the victim of attempted rape by her older sister's son and, as a result, ended up moving in with a woman outside of her _okiya_. Here is what she says about that:

Quote:

The move changed where I slept, but not what I did...By this time I was so entwined with the larger community of Gion Kobu that I hardly noticed the difference, except that I finally had to give up my life-long habit of suckling on Kuniko or Auntie Oima's breast until I fell asleep.
So, she weaned from breast nurturing at age 12, and continued onto being a healthy, productive adult.

ITA that, as long as both parties agree to the breast nurturing, that it is productive and healthy.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

What if this 11 yo wasn't 'nubbing' but sucking his thumb instead, or drinking from a bottle? Could he or she not be using this as an emotional crutch to avoid deeper issues?
If a child is using breastfeeding as an emotional crutch, he's probably picked the healthiest one out there. Other kids use drugs, TV, or overeating. I sucked my thumb until I was 10 and have yet to see how this is harmful. (I have perfectly straight teeth, and am the only one of my siblings who did not need braces!)

As for the child not really needing to...if he didn't need to, wouldn't he quit? I sure got a lot of dirty looks for bfing my 7 month old, since people thought she didn't "need to." (Some of these same people thought she didn't need to when she was 2 months old either.)

I don't know what is best for this woman and her child, and I bet none of us do either. All we know is what works for our own families.


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## rachdoll (Aug 18, 2003)

Both sides of this arguement have brought up that we don't know the entire family story. With that in mind, I think it's safe to say that while this could be a very happy, healthy relationship, red flags do come up because it is so very far beyond normal, and I feel that someone should look closely at this relationship. In a perfect world we could call up an EBF-friendly therapist who could meet with the family and try to determine what's going on. However, since this world is not perfect, regarding an earlier post:

"I firmly belive that it is essential to a child's physical and emotional health to allow the child to self-wean. If society's attitude is going to cause phychological problems, then it is *society* that needs to change! Not me and not my child!"

While ITA that society is what needs to change, I am not willing to risk my daughter's having future psychological problems while waiting for society to change. Yes, I can help society change, but I can only do so much in my little corner of America.

On a lighter note, the very first thing I thought when I came to this post... Dr. Phil would have a field day!

Thanks for this discussion! Very interesting, good arguements all around.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

I don't know what is best for this woman and her child, and I bet none of us do either. All we know is what works for our own families.
Perhaps, (although I still think that bf an 11 year old in this society is playing fast and loose with a child's emotional health), but at this point the discussion has become theoretical, hasn't it? I think many of us question whether the scenario is even true. That said, it makes for a fascinating debate!







I, too, appreciate the tone in which it has been conducted.


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## Mutherluv (Apr 19, 2003)

I really believe in my heart that that is child abuse. Nubbing??? I have never heard of such a thing. I think that there are so many ways of expressing love for our children. I still bf my 20 month old, and it is getting old, lol. I wonder if this woman is married, my dh would have called 911 for a psyc evaluation.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by rachdoll_
*In a perfect world we could call up an EBF-friendly therapist who could meet with the family and try to determine what's going on.*
I think that a truly SBF-friendly therapist would never dream of intruding in a SBF relationship to "determine what's going on," unless there was some evidence that there really was 'something' going on.

Quote:

_Originally posted by rachdoll_
*While ITA that society is what needs to change, I am not willing to risk my daughter's having future psychological problems while waiting for society to change. Yes, I can help society change, but I can only do so much in my little corner of America.*
If you carry that attitude to its logical conclusion, then you'd better not SBF at all -- you'd better force your child to wean at six months. Any continuation after that point guarantees disapproval from some segment of society, and that segment grows rapidly as the child ages, so that by the time the child is 13 months old, I would guess that more than half of our unenlightened society would disapprove, and by the time the child is 3, I'll bet practically the whole country would accuse you of child abuse. A child that breastfed to age 3 and a child that breastfed to age 11 are both going to be mocked and told that their bf relationship was inappropriate and/or abusive. The only way to change this situation is for MORE mothers to breastfeed their older children openly. I think it is more psychologically damaging to wean a child before his time than it is to risk society's disapproval.

And if being breastfed does mean suffering psychological harm from a disapproving society, then we need to focus our attention on the people inflicting the harm: not on the mothers, who are doing nothing wrong, but on the society, which is making the child *think* that something wrong was done to him. If we convince mothers to stop breastfeeding, we validate the society's attitude and perpetuate its ability to do harm.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*luv my 2 sweeties
I still think that bf an 11 year old in this society is playing fast and loose with a child's emotional health*
Since it is THIS society we're talking about, you might as well say the same thing about breastfeeding a 3 year old.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*at this point the discussion has become theoretical, hasn't it? I think many of us question whether the scenario is even true.*
I think it's been theoretical from the beginning, since we know nothing about the individual case -- it has always been just a discussion of "would it be appropriate to bf an 11 yr old" -- it shouldn't really matter whether it's real or theoretical in order for us to discuss that question.

Quote:

_Mutherluv_
*I really believe in my heart that that is child abuse*
I say this with all due respect, but there it is again. The "belief in one's heart." The "feeling." With no argument to back it up. WHY is it abusive? WHAT makes it abusive? HOW is it harmful? And I don't mean indirect harm from a disapproving culture, but the direct harm that is required for something to be termed abusive? (Is it abusive to allow a boy to wear his hair long, knowing he's going to be called a "girl"?)

Quote:

_Mutherluv_
*I have never heard of such a thing.*
I really think that this is what's behind "the feeling." It's a new idea. You're not used to it yet. I think it's a knee-jerk reaction.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

If you carry that attitude to its logical conclusion, then you'd better not SBF at all -- you'd better force your child to wean at six months. Any continuation after that point guarantees disapproval from some segment of society, and that segment grows rapidly as the child ages, so that by the time the child is 13 months old, I would guess that more than half of our unenlightened society would disapprove, and by the time the child is 3, I'll bet practically the whole country would accuse you of child abuse. A child that breastfed to age 3 and a child that breastfed to age 11 are both going to be mocked and told that their bf relationship was inappropriate and/or abusive.

Quote:

Since it is THIS society we're talking about, you might as well say the same thing about breastfeeding a 3 year old.
With all due respect, Devrock, this arguement is facetious. A baby or toddler (even a preschooler) is not going to suffer psycological damage from SBF. They are unaware of society's norms at early ages. (Look at how many young children undress in public!







) I suppose *some* damage could be caused if a mother constantly talked about nursing her 3 year old in front of disapproving people and in the child's presence, (thus subjecting the child to public disapproval) but otherwise the child would be mostly unaware that anything is out of the ordinary. Plus, the "sexual" controversies involved would be over a pre-schooler's head. There is no reason that a child nursed into early childhood should be mocked, since their peers are unlikely to even know about it. An 11 year old is so much more aware of societies norms (or will be soon if he's not now) and impending puberty threatens to create problems with his emotional and sexual health. MUST it create those problems? Maybe not, but it's not a risk I'd be willing to take with *my* child.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

you might as well say the same thing about breastfeeding a 3 year old.
Devrock, that is simply not true. Breastfeeding a three year old is in no way anything like an 11yr old. at all. How could you say that? i have had an 11 yr old, (twice!), and i can assure you they were nothing like a three year old, thats for sure. for one thing, my daughter had pubic hair, and my son did too. thats just the start of how hugely different 11 yr olds are from a 3 yr old. I am not disputing the fact that some people think that a nursing 3 yr old is weird, but come on, a 3 yr old the same as an 11 yr old? you lost me there.

Something is not right if the only way an 11 yr old middle schooler can be nurtured is by nubbing.


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## gaffa (Sep 1, 2002)

Devrock:

I really don't think societally MOST people look at it the same as nursing a 2 or 3 or even 4 year old. Any preschool age for that matter. At that age I think people may not LIKE it, or think it's weird or gross, but I think it still falls in the "to each his own" category for most people. Regardless of whether or not THEY approve of it. I've told alot of people I'm nursing a 2yr 10mos old and while they seem shocked, I don't think they think too much of it.

11 goes WAY beyond that. It's just not within the norms of almost ANY culture. Especially not ours. And while I believe deviation from the norm is fine to a degree. Even deviation WAY off center. 11 deviates way off the scale. I don't think it even fits anywhere under the bell curve of global standards.

I mean, if a child resisted potty training until 10, would we be OK with that just cause the kid didn't want to. No, it's not developmentally age appropriate at all. It's WAY WAY WAY off. Where at 4 or five, people tsk, but it's still not a major major issue

I just think at this point an 11 year old nursing would point to the mother not giving the child other tools to cope. Not substituting with hugs or verbal communication. Not giving the child AGE APPROPRIATE skills that will help him with both other children and adults when mom isn't around.

i think the MOM doesn't want to let go, the kid could have a long time ago.

That being said, I'm not totally appalled, nor would I go as far as to say "child abuse", but I do think it isn't smart or necessary no matter how you looked at it, UNLESS the child was developmentally delayed.


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## andriagirlie (Oct 3, 2003)

all i will say is that breastfeeding an 11 year old is no where close to my comfort level. and, i have no doubt that this would cause psychological harm to the child. unless the child spent the rest of their life sheltered in their own world where that is acceptable and was not exposed to the general population. bucking the norm is one thing, but this is certainly going to become an issue for the child at some point when you are talking about a society where 11 year olds are having sex themselves.


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## barbara (Feb 13, 2002)

I believe in self-weaning, but IMO if a child of this age is not ready to wean, there are other issues involved. Somewhere along the line the beautiful mother/child nursing relationship must have gotten distorted, and the needs of the child are no longer being met. A child of 11 has new and different needs of his mother and the mother needs to find more effective ways to relate to her child as the child grows.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I wonder if this woman is married, my dh would have called 911 for a psyc evaluation.
Ever notice how it's usually the single mothers who get in trouble for things like ebf and co-sleeping, even with children as young as 3? Somehow when you're married it's OK, because then people know you're not doing it for sexual gratification.

If I were single I would not even nurse my almost-2-yr-old in public because I would probably be arrested.

BTW, there is no law that I know of anywhere in the US that says breastfeeding must end by a certain age. For those who say "An 11-yr-old is not like a 3-yr-old" there are people who say "A 1-yr-old is not like a baby."









I think LLL's philosophy is more towards child-led weaning, am I right? Individuial LLL members may differ, but maybe more of them would rather hear of an 11 yr old "still nursing" than being forced to wean?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*A baby or toddler (even a preschooler) is not going to suffer psycological damage from SBF. They are unaware of society's norms at early ages. ... I suppose *some* damage could be caused if a mother constantly talked about nursing her 3 year old in front of disapproving people and in the child's presence, (thus subjecting the child to public disapproval) but otherwise the child would be mostly unaware that anything is out of the ordinary. Plus, the "sexual" controversies involved would be over a pre-schooler's head. There is no reason that a child nursed into early childhood should be mocked, since their peers are unlikely to even know about it. An 11 year old is so much more aware of societies norms (or will be soon if he's not now) and impending puberty threatens to create problems with his emotional and sexual health.*
It is my opinion that NO child of ANY age suffers psychological damage from SBF, but they might suffer psychological damage from society's attitude toward SBF. I think that 3 year olds understand more than you think. If I were breastfeeding my 2 year old and someone said over my shoulder "She's too old/big to breastfeed!" I'm sure she would understand perfectly, and I would be very upset with the person. However, I was mostly referring to after-the-fact: my mother breastfed me until I was 3, and when I was in Elementary school she told me so, and even as an elementary school student I immediately knew that that was a lot older than usual (what I didn't know is that it is only unusual in this country), and I immediately started telling all the kids at school what a freak I was ("Yeah! She says I would just walk up to her and ask for it!!") and they certainly were shocked. If I had gotten much older and allowed myself to be indoctrinated with society's breasts=sex message, I might have started to think that what she did was sexually perverted. Luckily, I learned about how natural child-led weaning is, and what the health benefits are. I am now very very glad that my mother breastfed me until I was 3, even though I spent quite a few years shocked by my past and feeling like a freak.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sweetbaby3_
*Breastfeeding a three year old is in no way anything like an 11yr old. at all. How could you say that? i have had an 11 yr old, (twice!), and i can assure you they were nothing like a three year old, thats for sure. ... I am not disputing the fact that some people think that a nursing 3 yr old is weird, but come on, a 3 yr old the same as an 11 yr old? you lost me there.*
I know that there is a difference between a 3 yr old and an 11 yr old. What I meant was *in society's eyes*. Many people in this forum seem to draw a line somewhere between 7 yrs old and 11 yrs old. But society draws its line much lower: under 3 yrs old (many people draw it even lower than that, but practically everyone draws it under 3 yrs old). My point what that if your goal is to avoid society's disapproval, you would have to wean before age 3.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sweetbaby3_
*Something is not right if the only way an 11 yr old middle schooler can be nurtured is by nubbing.*
It is not the only way. It is just one way.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*I really don't think societally MOST people look at it the same as nursing a 2 or 3 or even 4 year old. Any preschool age for that matter. At that age I think people may not LIKE it, or think it's weird or gross, but I think it still falls in the "to each his own" category for most people.*
I think you're wrong about that. I think most people in this country would say it's child abuse.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*11 goes WAY beyond that. ... 11 deviates way off the scale.*
I think most people in this country would say the exact same thing about a 3 yr old. And they would be right -- 3 years old is way off the scale for this country. Most people in this country have forced their child to wean by the time the child is six months old. Three years is six times as long as that!

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*No, it's not developmentally age appropriate at all. ... I just think at this point an 11 year old nursing would point to the mother not giving the child other tools to cope. Not substituting with hugs or verbal communication. Not giving the child AGE APPROPRIATE skills that will help him with both other children and adults when mom isn't around. i think the MOM doesn't want to let go, the kid could have a long time ago.*
I hate to keep harping along this same theme, but it's just that the argument above is so familiar to me. I have heard it over and over again. Not about an 11 yr old, but about a 3 yr old. It is the exact same argument that most people in this country give about a 3 yr old.

Quote:

_Originally posted by andriagirlie_
*i have no doubt that this would cause psychological harm to the child. unless the child spent the rest of their life sheltered in their own world where that is acceptable and was not exposed to the general population.*
Again, the general population does not draw their line between age 7 and age 11 the way we do in here. They draw it under age 3. There is simply no way to do what is right for your child and please society both at the same time. The answer is not to wean our children early. The answer is to change society. Again, let's focus our attention on the people who are actually inflicting the psycholigical harm: not on the breastfeeding mothers, but on society. If we support every mother's right to practice child-led weaning, then eventually society will accept it. But why on earth should society accept it if we don't even accept/support it ourselves? When we allow society's outdated mores to dictate our actions, we surrender our ability to change society for the better. It's like admitting, "you're right, society, it is harmful." If you listen, you can hear society answer: "glad you agree that you would be harming your child - now sit down and shut up and stop trying to change things." We need to call them on the fact that it is their attitudes that are causing the harm.

Quote:

_Originally posted by andriagirlie_
*this is certainly going to become an issue for the child at some point when you are talking about a society where 11 year olds are having sex themselves.*
"having sex themselves"? What does having sex have to do with anything? Breastfeeding and having sex are two entirely different things. We need to get our heads out of breast = sex mode. Breast does not equal sex. Breastfeeding is not a sexual activity. Let's break our minds free of our sex-obsessed, "breasts-are-sex-toys-for-men" culture. Society is WRONG. Breastfeeding is right. Don't say "this is the world we have to live in" -- because it ISN'T. We can change the world. We must. It is our duty. Join the fight. Anyone going with the flow is hindering progress.


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## gaffa (Sep 1, 2002)

Quote:

I know that there is a difference between a 3 yr old and an 11 yr old. What I meant was *in society's eyes*. Many people in this forum seem to draw a line somewhere between 7 yrs old and 11 yrs old. But society draws its line much lower: under 3 yrs old (many people draw it even lower than that, but practically everyone draws it under 3 yrs old). My point what that if your goal is to avoid society's disapproval, you would have to wean before age 3.
Yeah, but there is global standards to back this up. It isn't common anywhere for an 11 year old to be nursing. At three you still have breastmilk to offer.

Quote:

I think you're wrong about that. I think most people in this country would say it's child abuse.
that's debateable, but with groups like LLL and more awareness of across the board about global practices you certainly can't get busted for it, whether some people think it's abuse or not. You bust out the fact that the mean age for global weaning is 4 and people generally back down.

Quote:

I think most people in this country would say the exact same thing about a 3 yr old. And they would be right -- 3 years old is way off the scale for this country. Most people in this country have forced their child to wean by the time the child is six months old. Three years is six times as long as that!
3 years old--way off for this country maybe , but not humanity in general
...and even though it's way off the scale I bet most people know SOMEONE who has done it whether they personally appoved or not. It's certainly not unheard of, even if people whisper nastily about it at times.

And with andriagirlie's comment about 11 year olds having sex themselves...he may not be using his mother's breast's sexually, but he is at an age where breast's become sexually appealing, and have been sexualized by the world around him and it's certainly been internalized by that age. Men are attacted to breasts, plain and simple. it's a differentiating female characteristic tha visually appeals to males, and could be very difficult for a developing young man to sort out.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

i have no doubt that this would cause psychological harm to the child. unless the child spent the rest of their life sheltered in their own world where that is acceptable and was not exposed to the general population.
Many people say that about homeschooling and co-sleeping...even about keeping boys intact!

Also, I have no proof for this, but I bet boys who breastfeed at an age where they are old enough to remember it probably do not have sex when they are 11, maybe because they know what women's bodies are really for! (I think it's usually 11-yr-old girls who have sex, not boys, and it's with much older boys against their will. It probably has nothing to do with breastfeeding.)

There was a poll here, "How old is too old?" Most people answered in favor of child-led weaning. Maybe the ages should have gone up to 11, and people would have answered differently.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*At three you still have breastmilk to offer.*
I have heard that some women still have breastmilk to offer at age 11.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*with groups like LLL and more awareness of across the board about global practices you certainly can't get busted for it, whether some people think it's abuse or not.*
And with LLL and more awareness, we can raise the bar even higher.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*You bust out the fact that the mean age for global weaning is 4 and people generally back down.*
Not with me they don't. They either don't believe me, or they say "that's over there -- this is over here" or they say it's just as disgusting and abusive for people in other countries, or they say "those natives just don't know any better -- they're like animals -- uncivilized."

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*3 years old--way off for this country maybe , but not humanity in general*
It doesn't matter. The society that everyone has been talking about facing disapproval from, the society whose disapproval will cause SBF'd children psychological harm, is the society of this country. I doubt the rest of the world would care about a breastfed 11 yr old.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*It's certainly not unheard of, even if people whisper nastily about it at times.*
same is true for 11 yr old

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*he may not be using his mother's breast's sexually, but he is at an age where breast's become sexually appealing, and have been sexualized by the world around him and it's certainly been internalized by that age. Men are attacted to breasts, plain and simple. it's a differentiating female characteristic tha visually appeals to males, and could be very difficult for a developing young man to sort out.*
Better not let him give his mother a leg rub, or kiss her, or hug her, because those things are sexualized too. Don't you see, it depends completely on the relationship. Kissing and hugging and and oral breast stimulation between sexual lovers is one thing. Kissing and hugging and breastfeeding between mother and child is completely different. I think children can easily differentiate that. They've certainly seen enough passionate kissing on tv to know it's sexualized and to internalize it. But they still shouldn't feel weird about kissing their mothers. Yes, it is wrong that the breast has been so completely sexualized by the culture around us. We need to change that aspect of our culture, so that people don't feel weird about breastfeeding. Let's focus our energies in the right direction. Instead of accepting and perpetuating the sexualization of the breast by allowing it to dictate our actions, let's desexualize the breast. And we can't say "okay, but in the mean time let's not openly bf our older children," because the only way to desexualize the breast is to openly bf our older children.


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## andriagirlie (Oct 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_

"having sex themselves"? What does having sex have to do with anything?
Yeah, that didn't come out right. I should have left the "themselves" part out. I meant, having an 11 year old breastfeeding in a society where 11 year olds are having sex seems to automatically draw the correlation that breastfeeding a child of this age will be viewed as a sexual activity. I believe that when you are talking about children who are old enough in our society that they are having sex, having their periods, beginning puberty and other signs of maturity, it is more than time to stop latching onto your mother's breast for comfort. Even if these changes are distressing to a child, hugs and talking and other substitutes for breastfeeding would seem to go a long way.

Of course, I agree that breastfeeding is not sexual.


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## andriagirlie (Oct 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_

And with andriagirlie's comment about 11 year olds having sex themselves...he may not be using his mother's breast's sexually, but he is at an age where breast's become sexually appealing, and have been sexualized by the world around him and it's certainly been internalized by that age. Men are attacted to breasts, plain and simple. it's a differentiating female characteristic tha visually appeals to males, and could be very difficult for a developing young man to sort out. [/B]
Yes, much better said...thank you.


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## andriagirlie (Oct 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*
Yes, it is wrong that the breast has been so completely sexualized by the culture around us. We need to change that aspect of our culture, so that people don't feel weird about breastfeeding. Let's focus our energies in the right direction. Instead of accepting and perpetuating the sexualization of the breast by allowing it to dictate our actions, let's desexualize the breast. And we can't say "okay, but in the mean time let's not openly bf our older children," because the only way to desexualize the breast is to openly bf our older children.*

But really, I understand the concept of ending up accepting and perpetuating the sexualization and that we should focus our energies in the right direction. But, again, I think it is pretty much a given that to argue this point by breastfeeding a child of a sexually mature age is gonna get your child no where but in a therapist's office. And is that worth it? I think there are much more productive ways of combating our cultures sexualization of women than by justifying breastfeeding an 11 year old.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by andriagirlie_
*I meant, having an 11 year old breastfeeding in a society where 11 year olds are having sex seems to automatically draw the correlation that breastfeeding a child of this age will be viewed as a sexual activity.*
That doesn't make any logical sense to me. When "X" is done at an age when some kids have sex, that makes "X" a sexual activity? A mother kissing her child doesn't become a sexual activity once the child is 11. Thumb-sucking doesn't become sexual at age 11.

Quote:

_Originally posted by andriagirlie_
*I believe that when you are talking about children who are old enough in our society that they are having sex, having their periods, beginning puberty and other signs of maturity, it is more than time to stop latching onto your mother's breast for comfort.*
Why?

Quote:

_Originally posted by andriagirlie_
*Even if these changes are distressing to a child, hugs and talking and other substitutes for breastfeeding would seem to go a long way.*
Hugs and talking are great, but why must they replace bf? Why can't they supplement bf?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by andriagirlie_
*I think there are much more productive ways of combating our cultures sexualization of women than by justifying breastfeeding an 11 year old.*
Either child-led weaning is ok, or it isn't. We can't draw lines. Drawing lines is what everyone else is doing. It's what we need to fight. It simply isn't anyone else's business when a mother and child wean. If breastfeeding an 11 year old isn't your cup of tea, then don't do it. But we shouldn't be judging others.


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## gaffa (Sep 1, 2002)

See, that's where we differ, I think there are lines. I think once a child is sexually maturing, it's time to stop nursing. NOT because nursing/breasts = sex, but because I don't think our biology/nature intended it.

I also stick to the thought that by that age, boys ARE sexualizing breasts in ANY society, because they are uniqely female, and men are hardwired to be attracted to uniquely female features or feminized features. You can read on that in human sexuality studies that cross the lines of cultural boundaries. I think rubbing hands, feet, backs, is different because it is also acceptable in friendly settings amongst adults. Touching someone's breasts is not and the child is reaching biological adulthood.

An 11 year old boy may not be sexualizing his own mother's breasts, but I think at the onset on puberty, we are no longer meant to breastfeed given the biological evidence that it isn't common practice anywhere, and that other mammals wean before sexual maturity.

I think at any rate, we won't agree because I think there are lines and you don't. that's all right with me. i can disagree wihtout taking it personally, I do like a good debate though


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

This has been a very interesting dicussion and one that I find is expanding my mind. I have looked at this question (at least at a theoretical level) from all of the perspective presented and I see merit in all of them. But I do find that I haven't changed my mind. I hold to the contention that it is not developmentally normal for an 11 yo to need/want/be permitted to nurse...not here, not in any other place in the world that I have heard of (other than the literary/autobiographic reference provided by veggiewolf and that is one antecdotal account) So, if this child has not advanced developmentally in this area, there is likely an underlying reason.

I do want to clarify that I don't think that nursing a child is sexual. But it is sensual, which is correlated very closely in our society to sexual...there are likely people who do not distinguish the two. It has caused the warping of a lot of people's views about nursing and is something that I wholeheartedly agree needs to be fought against. I do that by nursing my children, loudly, proudly, publicly and telling everyone I know and meet about all of the joys and wonder of this blessed experience.

And I do believe in child-led weaning. I allowed my children to self-wean. Both did it before the age of three...that's our family, I certainly don't hold myself up as any "norm". I can see a child upwards to say the age of 5 or 6 having a developmental need to nurse occasionally for comfort/reassurance, and am even willing to give a varience for that to the age of 7 or 8 on the outside for children with developmental delays. But after that, if a child is still nursing, there is something else going on...whether it is something "wrong" (abuse) or an unwillingness by the child's mother to "get go" of that faze of their relationship, or an underlying emotional issue for the child that he cannot give it up. I don't know the details of this particular situation to make a call on thatin this case. BUT, IMO, the on-going nursing relationship at this stage of the child's life could stifle the child's ability to develop coping mechanisms for himself and once he has "weaned" may have him looking outside of himself for comfort and love at a time when many children are vulnerable to outside influences (especially if they have not been taught other healthy methods by then...again, I cannot speak to whatever else his mother may be doing to help him grow emotionally because the case lacks enough detail).

And yes, I know these are the same arguements used for 1, 3, 5 years olds, but we can all pretty much agree that in those cases the arguement lacks merit because we can look anthropologically and see that the argument is BS. But an 11 yo is on the brink of adulthood (at least physically, if not socially in this culture) and at some point we all have to find coping skills within ourselves to help us deal with stress, fear, resentment, anger, sadness and a whole host of other feelings that we all experience in life, especially in our teens. It is our jobs as mothers to help our children along the path to adulthood, hopefully helping them find healthy ways/outlets of coping with the "pains" of growing up. This particular method (nubbing) is not one that can/will be sustained more than likely and in a void, other less healthy influences and methods can come into play (like drugs, adolecent sex, and other potential self destructive activites).

...although I just got a horrifying vision (to me...okay I'm warped by our culture







) of a 16 yo boy coming home after his girlfriend has broken up with him to nub with his mother







. Can you honestly tell me that that would be a healthy expression/outlet to his stress? How far do we take the scenario before it can be construed a "jest a little bit warped"?

Would I rather see an 11 yo use nursing as opposed to drugs as a coping mechanism? Yes, I suppose I would. But I still don't think it is anywhere near the best way (damn those gray areas







)


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*I think there are lines. I think once a child is sexually maturing, it's time to stop nursing. NOT because nursing/breasts = sex, but because I don't think our biology/nature intended it.*
Shouldn't that be for the individual mother and child to decide, rather than one person's judgement dictating to the rest of the world? If you think it's time to stop nursing, then stop. To each her own.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*I think rubbing hands, feet, backs, is different because it is also acceptable in friendly settings amongst adults. Touching someone's breasts is not*
It should be. Breasts should not be taboo.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*An 11 year old boy may not be sexualizing his own mother's breasts, but I think at the onset on puberty, we are no longer meant to breastfeed given the biological evidence that it isn't common practice anywhere, and that other mammals wean before sexual maturity.*
There's a great picture on my website of a cat nursing her offspring:

http://devrock.5u.com/custom.html

The "kittens" are fully as large as the mother. I wonder if the other cats in her culture disapprove, or think it's inappropriate, or think it's a sexual relationship? It's all so silly!


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## CyndyRR327 (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:

Okay, I'm going to say it... that's weird. I know, I know--I shouldn't throw stones, but c'mon... 11 YEARS OLD?!
Sorry, I've got to agree! I think there is definately something wrong with that! Breast are first made for milk, then sexual objects, he's getting to the point that he KNOWS about the breasts as sexual objects and I don't think you can compare this to thumb sucking, etc. A thumb does not turn into a sexual object. And there is no milk left so I think it's time to find something else to comfort her son. JMO!


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*I hold to the contention that it is not developmentally normal for an 11 yo to need/want/be permitted to nurse...not here, not in any other place in the world that I have heard of (other than the literary/autobiographic reference provided by veggiewolf and that is one antecdotal account)*
I think what is normal and healthy is for a child to be allowed to self-wean at whatever age s/he is ready. For most, this is between age 2 1/2 and age 7. There will always be a few who fall outside this scale, simply because everyone is different -- there is a lot of variation and diversity. It doesn't necessarily mean that there is something wrong with the person. I think the thing to focus on is not the age, not the numbers, but on the philosophy of the healthfulness and importance of child-led weaning.

Those single, anecdotal accounts of breastfed 10/12 year olds add up. I think there are a lot more than any of us realize. Our culture has driven them into the closet. Since most people fall within the scale, the people outside the scale are going to be uncommon, obviously. But just because something is uncommon doesn't mean it is wrong.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*And I do believe in child-led weaning.*
Up to a certain point, anyway.

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*But after that, if a child is still nursing, there is something else going on...whether it is something "wrong" (abuse) or an unwillingness by the child's mother to "get go" of that faze of their relationship, or an underlying emotional issue for the child that he cannot give it up. I don't know the details of this particular situation to make a call on thatin this case. BUT, IMO, the on-going nursing relationship at this stage of the child's life could stifle the child's ability to develop coping mechanisms for himself and once he has "weaned" may have him looking outside of himself for comfort and love at a time when many children are vulnerable to outside influences*
How on earth do you know all of this? I am not aware of any evidence that any of that is true. What I do know it that it is the exact same things that are said about three year olds. As you pointed out, we know that this argument is BS about a three year old. What makes you think it is true for an 11 year old? Seems like we're just taking the exact same arguments that anti-SBFers use, and we're plugging in higher numbers. I think it's just a BS argument, no matter what numbers you plug in. (No offense intended.)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*This particular method (nubbing) is not one that can/will be sustained more than likely and in a void, other less healthy influences and methods can come into play (like drugs, adolecent sex, and other potential self destructive activites).*
It was someone else's point that if you deny a child the breast before s/he is ready to give it up, s/he might fill the void with drugs, etc. The point is that it's healthier to sustain the bf relationship. How does it help to create the void earlier?

Quote:

_Originally posted by sadean_
*...although I just got a horrifying vision (to me...okay I'm warped by our culture







) of a 16 yo boy coming home after his girlfriend has broken up with him to nub with his mother







. Can you honestly tell me that that would be a healthy expression/outlet to his stress? How far do we take the scenario before it can be construed a "jest a little bit warped"?*
Yes, I can honestly tell you that it could be healthy, depending on the individual case. I don't think bf ever becomes warped just based on age alone. People used to say that big boys/grown men shouldn't cry. That it was infantile.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CyndyRR327_
*Breast are first made for milk, then sexual objects*
Nope. Breasts are made for milk, period. They are not made to be sexual objects at all! We have turned them into sexual objects.

Quote:

_Originally posted by CyndyRR327_
*I don't think you can compare this to thumb sucking, etc. A thumb does not turn into a sexual object.*
Exactly. Neither should a breast.

Quote:

_Originally posted by CyndyRR327_
*And there is no milk left so I think it's time to find something else to comfort her son.*
Many mothers here continue to comfort feed after there's no milk left, and most of us here support it. There are many reasons for breastfeeding, other than the nutritional value of the milk.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

whew, i read the whole thread!!!

candiland-
you mentioned earlier in this thread boys getting erections during nursing.

um, hello, my son has had continuous erections every single time he has nursed since the day he was born. Once he was 5 months old or so, he began to play with his erect penis while nursing. He will just sit and play with it now, he knows where and what it is and it is his body.

Is this disturbing? Not to me. Not anymore than my being able to have sexual fantasies and be a mother- my son can be a sexual creature AND nurse. (he is 14 months old). We are all sexual beings, from our birth, our lives, our own birthing and breast nurturing, every breath we take on the earth is sexual.

it is interesting, though, that many mothers in this society struggle with their roles as mother/ lover, that people desexualize labor and birth and nursing. interesting and sad.

there was a law & order show i saw







ing where a mother of a 1/2 african american boy killed someone who was going to expose his heritage (you couldnt tell by looking, i guess) and she went to prison. i think this relates, because she claimed she desperately wanted to protect her child from a society that hates African Americans, but in the end, she was supporting bigotry, defending it almost, as something to be afraid of.

It is people feeling they need to do negative, or even just less-than-ideal things to shield their children (or themselves) that reinforce the society they are trying to shield their children from. im not saying you have to resist society all the time but it is important not to conform out of fear.

have i lost track of what i was saying?

i strongly believe that one of the reasons EBF is yet 'weird' even in this progressive area, is that the many EBFing mothers are afraid to do it in public. I will nurse my son anywhere, anytime. he lifts my shirt high in the air and yells, "boobie!". he loves to nurse. so do i.

will we be nursing at 11? who knows. My husband respects and trusts me, and wouldnt call 911 on me. If he would, i would have to wonder why i chose him? Arent you supposed to settle down and raise children with someone you trust? at least? how about someone who loves you, too? i guess i am lucky.

I dont think this discussion is about what age the child is. it is about comfort levels. culture shock, even. if nursing to 11 doesnt feel good to you, so be it. you can choose to wean at any age- unfortunately, no one can make all these american women bring their babies to their breasts. Some refuse even the first milk. It hurts me to think of all the babies denied their birthright each day. If you choose not to EBF, i dont think you will hurt your child. If you choose to i dont think it will hurt either- it is good! I wholeheartedly agree with Devrock and indeed everything she has written in this thread.

Tabitha


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I personally would not be comfortable nursing a child that old. I also automatically think 'hmmm is something weird going on' when I hear of an eleven old child nursing....

However I agree with the argument Devrock has been speaking of. Who is going to draw the line? *Should* someone draw the line? I doubt we'd like a law that says 'stop breastfeeding @ age __'. We can't really say "I believe in child led weaning. Period." when we're speaking of say a 3 year old, and then come back and look at this situation and say "oh he should have weaned long ago." Its one or the other.

But, if this situation is true (and not an exageration), I very highly doubt the mother is sexually abusing or pressuring her child to breastfeed. I haven't heard of any sexual abuser running around their *workplace* bragging of their deeds.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

Breasts are made for milk, period. They are not made to be sexual objects at all! We have turned them into sexual objects.
Personally, I don't have any interest in *totally* desexualizing breasts. I do think our culture objectifies them and over-sexualizes them (so that their purpose as baby feeding organs is seen as secondary), but I _like_ my breasts as sexual objects in the context of romantic intimacy.







Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!









Besides, biologically, it makes sense that breasts would be a sexual turn-on to men precisely _because_ they indicate a woman's ability to nurture a baby. (Same thing goes for that thing about waist-to-hip ratio. Statistically, men are most attracted to a body shape that indicates a good childbearing build.) Men are not even conciously aware of it -- it's a product of our evolution, like it or not. I'm all for trying to instill in men the ability to see inner beauty







but ya gotta admit: it's an uphill battle!







:


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Thanks for all your eloquence, devrock. Personal opinion, I think it is OK for an 11 yr old, esp a boy to nurse, if he and his mom both want to. 11 is not puberty for boys. Unlike girls, boys sexually mature at about 14.

If I was doing it, I would not talk abt it at work, however.

From the La Leche League Leader Handbook:

one of the 10 concepts that form LLL philosophy:

Quote:

Ideally, the breastfeeding relationship will continue until the baby outgows the need.

Quote:

Natural weaning is the gradual ending of the breastfeeding relationship between a responsive mother and her growing child. As the child matures, his changing physical and emotional needs are increasingly satisfied through means other than breastfeeding. Although the child usually initiates natural weaning, the mother continues to take an active role by determining in each situation whether nursing or some other approach will best meet her child's needs. A mother demonstrates her commitment to natural weaning through her sensitivity to her child's individual nededs and readiness; her flexibility in responding to the unpredictable course of natural weaning and her understanding of and trust in the fundamental stages of a child's development. -- LLL Board of Directors 1992
Having seen 3 of the 7 Founders of LLL speak at LLL conferences, and having read 7 Voices, 1 Dream, by Marian Thomson, one of the Founders, I get the definite idea the Founders themselves (all in their 70's) think bfing is something babies do, and should be weaned by 2 yrs! Note the word "baby" in the original statement. Obviously, the rest of LLL has grown beyond this idea.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:

_*... by barbara*
... I believe in self-weaning, but IMO if a child of this age is not ready to wean, there are other issues involved. Somewhere along the line the beautiful mother/child nursing relationship must have gotten distorted, and the needs of the child are no longer being met. A child of 11 has new and different needs of his mother and the mother needs to find more effective ways to relate to her child as the child grows._










barbara, may I quote you?
























Precisely what I was thinking throughout this thread.

The mama may be well-intentioned, but her parenting skills, IMO, need some work.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

As the second poster to the thread I have been able to follow it through it's twists and turns. My opinion has been expressed very eloquently already, but I would like to state it one more time.

Primates wean at the onset of puberty, which, chemically (read hormonally) starts at about age 5-10 in humans. 11 Falls just outside that range, so no, I do not think it is biologically innapropriate. Some babies don't walk until 19 months, and they grow up to be normal, healthy people. Sometimes, folks just fall outside the range.

Every breastfeeding relationship is different, there are no rules about them. There is no way to draw the line, because we would all draw it in a different place. Do I expect to nurse dd until she is 11? No, I don't expect that, but my mind is open- once I thought that 3 was a great age for weaning, and now I am open to the idea of nursing beyond age 7. It is really her choice, I will remain open to her needs as she dictates them to me.

We do not really know much about this nursing relationship- if it exists at all. I agree that if she is so open and responsive to her child needs as to SBF, then she is probably not dumb enough to go around talking baout it since someone will probably decide it is abuse and try to take action against her.

When I was 7 and 8 I can remember a few times I saw my mom changing her shirt and wanted to try to nurse again. My mother, being an open minded, kind hearted person, allowed me to try again. I didn't really remember how to do it, but I did get my little 'nub' on. She had undergone a mastectomy, so I may have been feeling sadness over the loss of her breast and felt like I needed to reconnect or something. I did this same thing when I was about 9. It was completely non sexual in nature. Just curiousity, comfort. I weaned at a little over 2 1/2, a.k.a. almost 3.

As I believe I said in my first post to this thread, I have never walked in those shoes, so it is not my place to judge. Every mother knows her own child best. Age 11 does sound odd to me, but I certainly am not one to call anyone odd.

I am so glad this thread has not gotten nasty.

Devrock, keep fighting the good fight! You are far more eloquent than I.









Lauren


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Thank you, Tabitha and veganmamma.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*I like my breasts as sexual objects in the context of romantic intimacy.







*
Any part of the body can become a sexual object in the context of romantic intimacy. I have been trying to say all along that there is nothing wrong with using breasts, or any other part of the body, for sex.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*Besides, biologically, it makes sense that breasts would be a sexual turn-on to men precisely because they indicate a woman's ability to nurture a baby. (Same thing goes for that thing about waist-to-hip ratio. Statistically, men are most attracted to a body shape that indicates a good childbearing build.)*
That's true. We agree that hips attract and arouse men, and yet they are not considered genitals. It is not indecent to carry a child on your hip. Hips are not inherently sex organs, in the sense that there must be sexual implications whenever you do anything with them.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Gaffa "I think once a child is sexually maturing, it's time to stop nursing. NOT because nursing/breasts = sex, but because I don't think our biology/nature intended it."

This makes no sense to me. If that child's biology or nature didnt intend it, he simply wouldnt nurse. For whatever reason, he does want to.

Now, there might be other things wrong with the mother-child relationship, but the fact he nurses isn't proof of that.

The thing I do wonder about is the mother talking about it at work. But we've been through that before with the discussion about the child taken by social services for ebf. (cant' remember the name, sorry). On the one hand, good for her for being public - I wouldnt be that brave. But on the other hand, maybe it is a little foolhardy, given this culture's attitude towards nursing beyond 6 months. If I were her, I wouldn't be talking about it. My job is to parent my children before it is to change the world.

I also think that stories like this do ebf no favours. If a thousand women went public over nursing 2 or 3 or even 4 year olds, it would do much more good than one woman going public over a nine year old or eleven year old. That is ammunition to the anti-nursing brigade, not good PR about extended breastfeeding.

Interesting discussion. I do think that the sexual concerns are a red herring - most eleven year olds I worked with had more interest in football and computer games than breasts, except in a giggling sense. The girls would despair at their immaturity.







:


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I believe that part of my job as my child's parent is to change the world.

I think that a thousand women bfing 2, 3 & 4 year olds need to go public, and a hundred women bfing 5-10 yr olds need to go public, as well as one woman bfing an 11 year old. The one woman bfing the 11 year old did her part. The 1100 women bfing 2-10 year olds need to do their part.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
[B I also think that stories like this do ebf no favours. If a thousand women went public over nursing 2 or 3 or even 4 year olds, it would do much more good than one woman going public over a nine year old or eleven year old. That is ammunition to the anti-nursing brigade, not good PR about extended breastfeeding.
[/B]
I totally agree! Have been thinking as I read through this thread that it reminds me of the gun debate in this country. My dh (much to my dismay - many, many discussions about this over the years) is a gun lover and belonged to the NRA for years. But when the NRA took a "any gun can be owned by any American" type stance - mainly in trying to keep semi-automatic weapons legal to the public - they turned the American public at large against their cause. My dh no longer belongs to the NRA because he blames them for being too far to one side and causing most people to side with restricting gun rights.

If I knew personally a woman nursing an 11 year old, I would call the police to report it. I can't understand how we can say there is no line - of course there is a line. There are lines for everything! We are not allowed to do anything imaginable just because we think it is our right. I feel so badly for that boy - he has absolutely zero chance of ever growing up to have a healthy relationship IMO. That mother is not helping him. I find it very sad. For whatever odd reason, probably abuse in her own childhood, she is trying to connect with her son in an unhealthy way. Breastfeeding at one, two, three is not the same thing as an 11 year old. It simply is not. There are appropriate ages for things.

If people really are nursing 10, 11, 12 year olds, we should not support that with "they can decide" as that will lead to laws (which I believe would be appropriate for those cases) but could filter down to us. My personal comfort level is 12 to 18 months - am ok in general with up to 3 I suppose. I think I am conservative in this forum but really quite liberal in our society in general - do you want the vote to come down to 12 months? This just really doesn't help our cause - and I am not even talking about EBF, just BF in general.

Flame away! I know I am not going to be "listened to" as much since I "only" nurse to a year/year and a half. But I support breastfeeding in all my friends, and everyone I come in contact with. I can tell you there are many on this thread who agree it is wrong to nurse an 11 year old but are not saying it as it is not PC on MDC to say so.
Kirsten


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## Mutherluv (Apr 19, 2003)

Greaseball, I am so sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean that I thought only a single mother would do that. I just can't imagine everyone involved in the childs upbringing being okay with bf an 11yr old.


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

Kirsten -
I probably am comfortable nursing longer than 18 mos, but just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for bravely saying all the things I wanted to but was afraid I would not be able to control my frustration.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*If I knew personally a woman nursing an 11 year old, I would call the police to report it.*
How would you feel if one of the many people in this country who think that breastfeeding beyond six months, or six weeks, or at all, is disgusting, called the police and reported you for breastfeeding your 18 month old? How would you feel if the police were unenlightened and agreed that it was abuse and arrested you? This is the kind of threat that sends mothers who practice sustained breastfeeding into the closet in fear, keeping our culture in the dark ages. Since you are only comfortable with SBF up to age 3, even mothers breastfeeding four year olds are going to have to be afraid that you are their next door neighbor.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*I can't understand how we can say there is no line - of course there is a line. There are lines for everything!*
Okay, in that case, I'm going to pass a law that no one over 40 can kiss in public. Why? Because I personally find it gross and disgusting. It makes me uncomfortable. They should be ashamed of themselves at that age. I think there are phychologically healthier ways for them to spend their time. What do you think of that?

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*We are not allowed to do anything imaginable just because we think it is our right.*
Breastfeeding my child is one thing I do have a fundamental right to do, and it is no one's business how old my child is.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*I feel so badly for that boy*
And I feel bad for you. Your intolerance is very sad. Here is the evidence that those of us who advocate SBF certainly have our work cut out for us.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*he has absolutely zero chance of ever growing up to have a healthy relationship IMO.*
Actually, children who are breastfed until they self-wean have the very best chance of growing up to have a healthy relationship. (As well as a healthy heart, a healthy liver, a healthy brain, a healthy stomach....)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*That mother is not helping him. For whatever odd reason, probably abuse in her own childhood, she is trying to connect with her son in an unhealthy way.*
Ah. Nothing like blind, paranoid speculation. (Sorry, but this is really pushing my buttons. I think I was pretty good with people up until the threat to call the police.)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*There are appropriate ages for things.*
And naturally you are the person to determine the proper age for everyone else's children. (12-18 months, apparently. Up to age 3 if you're feeling generous.)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*If people really are nursing 10, 11, 12 year olds, we should not support that with "they can decide" as that will lead to laws (which I believe would be appropriate for those cases) but could filter down to us. My personal comfort level is 12 to 18 months - am ok in general with up to 3 I suppose. ... do you want the vote to come down to 12 months?*
It is *your* attitude -- that lines should be drawn at all -- that will lead to laws that will filter down to us! If we don't want laws passed that will affect those of us nursing 2-4 year olds, then we *have* to support *all* women practicing SBF -- even the ones nursing 10-12 year olds -- I might even say *especially* the ones nursing 10-12 year olds. The only way to keep the law out of it is for us to agree that it is no one else's business! It's not for the law or anyone else to decide where a "line" should be drawn.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Kirsten_
*But I support breastfeeding in all my friends, and everyone I come in contact with.*
As long as they stay within your "personal comfort level" of 12-18 months... *maybe* up to 3 years...


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

If I knew personally a woman nursing an 11 year old, I would call the police to report it.
You would be reporting something that is not a crime. I was recently given a handbook published by DHS on how to recognize and report child abuse, and it listed several specific things that were child abuse, such as "Giving other children nice things for their rooms and keeping one child's room as empty as a cell." Nowhere did it say anything about breastfeeding up to a certain age.

Some girls are going through puberty at very early ages. The youngest age of menstruation was 2.5! Was she too old to nurse? Boys will get erections while nursing, since they can get erections from doing darn near anything, and women sometimes even have orgasms. Some women even have orgasms during childbirth. (Not me, I'm sorry to say!) Are they using their children sexually? Some women say that it's not even ok to breastfeed newborn boys (though newborn girls, it's not as bad). What if this child were a girl? Is that somehow different?

I know that between 1 and 10%, depending on whom you believe, of all child sexual abuse cases are those of women abusing their children. How many of these cases involved forced breastfeeding? It's just not something I've heard of.

It's funny how with all the disapproving voices here, many of us hear that kind of stuff all the time in regards to their parenting practices but somehow, althought "they" are "wrong about us" we are right about this woman?

I saw a lot of support here for the woman on our board who was nursing an 8-yr-old, even though she was no longer lactating. Is 8 ok and 11 not ok? How do we draw these lines? Don't the lines depend on the child, in this case whom we don't know?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I think a tremendous amount of thought has gone into many of the posts here, and I appreciate being educated about sustained breastfeeding. When I first read that an 11 year old was still nursing, my eyebrows went up. I admit that I wondered what the mother was thinking, and if it was a healthy relationship. After reading all the points made, I tend to agree with Devrock. Without having more information about the mother-son relationship, I can't say that nursing at age 11 is unhealthy. I don't think that I would have the patience to nurse for 11 years, but I'm going to make an effort to hold off on judging someone else for nursing so long. I do think that sustained breastfeeding needs to be made more public, so that it is considered normal in our society. While I doubt that I would be willing to risk CPS involvement in my life, and my child's life, by making SBF known after my child's a certain age, I appreciate those who do take the risk. If not for other people (like many here at MDC) letting me know about SBF, I may very well have weaned my son before he was a year old. I hope that my son is able to wean himself in his own time. While I hope that it won't take 11 years for him to do so, I can appreciate that each child has his own timetable for weaning.

-Debi


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Thank you, Greaseball -- I admire the way you were able to keep cool better than I was.

And thank you, Lotusdebi -- you have restored my faith in humanity.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Devrock, I have a sincere question. You seem to be insisting that those of us who have a problem with the 11 year old should understand that most people think the same thing about nursing a 3 year old. I just flat-out don't agree with that. I agree that most people are uncomfortable with it, some even disgusted by it, but I have to say that my experience has *not* been that most people view it as potential child abuse. I think the fact that it is accepted in other cultures is a factor in this.

As an example, there was a piece on our local news about EBF which featured a local mother whose 4 year old dd is still nursing. The girl's face was not shown on camera (mother's choice, I bet) but they did interview her. She was very well spoken about how nursing made her feel calmer when she was upset about something. The piece mentioned the controversial nature of this practice, but it was sympathetic to the mother and child. They came off as very normal and loving. At the time I saw it, I was not yet a mother myself and EBF seemed very strange to me (although not psychologically damaging). The piece went a long way toward opening my mind.

So I guess my question is this: why do you believe that a lack of acceptance toward bf a toddler or preschooler will lead to legal action? I don't know anyone who would call CPS on a an otherwise good mother just for nursing a 3 year old, even if they didn't like the practice. And I can't imagine an overburdened social worker spending much time and effort on such a case. Just curious if you have some experience to the contrary.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

That's true. We agree that hips attract and arouse men, and yet they are not considered genitals. It is not indecent to carry a child on your hip. Hips are not inherently sex organs, in the sense that there must be sexual implications whenever you do anything with them.
Very well said, and a great point, ITA.

Quote:

If I knew personally a woman nursing an 11 year old, I would call the police to report it.
Who are you to draw the line? Not only would you be reporting something that is not illegal, as greaseball said, but you would be taking resources away from children who are beaten and raped by their families! CPS doesn't have the resources to go after crankball reports of SBF. The reason I am afraid to parent my child the way I see fit in the public eye is b/c people say things like that. There was a thread in TAO recently where women were discussing their horror strories of CPS- most calls were b/c of something AP or natural they did in their family. I actually keep a civil right s lawyer on retainer, b/c of statements like this. What a frightening thing to say.

Quote:

My personal comfort level is 12 to 18 months - am ok in general with up to 3 I suppose.
I am glad it isn't you drawing the line! I was forcibly weaned by my parents divorce at almost 3 and I remember it, I was very hurt at the loss of the relationship, and there was nothing wrong or sexual about it. Do you plan to give your child cow's milk as a replacement for your human milk? Do you think that your comfort level is based on society's issues or your own knowledge of physical anthropology? Just curious what you base it on.

I just think, Kirsten that your kneejerk reaction is based in some ingrained belief system. I hope that the time you spend here at MDC opens your mind a little.
Lauren


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

i was thinking about this thread and my emotions about nursing.

it might be slightly OT, but i thought about how when i first became pregnant i had never seen a woman nurse. I met a woman nursing a 9month old boy in my first trimester. I remember reading about the AAP guiline '1 year' and thinking, oh thats easy, but i had no real opinon on it. I was sure i would nurse because i wanted to do the best for my child. But i had no idea how long.

Before my son was born people were asking me when i would wean him.

But weaning never made sense to me. If nursing is soo great, why would a baby 364 days old need it but not one 365 days old? How could you give your child a gift and take it away before they were done with it? What is the rush to wean- from the breast, bed, everything? Even then i had no glimpse into the swiftness of my sons childhood. He is 14 months old and it seems he was born just the other day...

Anyway, i remember by the time that 9mo finally was weaned (mother led) at 2 1/2, i had evolved from a person with no opinion on SN to someone really sad to see him weaned. He was just a baby, still. And when i saw my first 3 year old nurse i remember thinking, she is still just a little baby. She needs her mother.

Who knows where my opinions will lead me in the future! I hope that many more close minded or simply unopinionated people will begin to see what i did, that it is no ones business but the nursing couple, and mostly it should be a child's decision, it is the child's birth right.

And 12-18 months? Ahhh! My son would be weaned or nearly so! He still nurses like a newborn, and he loves it, and so do i. He needs to nurse! I cant even imagine saying 'no more of your favorite thing in the world!' . I would never do that. I see tristan nursing beyond the age of 3.

Thanks for letting me ramble some more.

Tabitha


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## gaffa (Sep 1, 2002)

I think it's important to recognize that some of us that don't think it's a good idea, didn't say it was abuse either. I just think it's not the best choice given the facts as I see them. I simply don't see things as all or nothing.

Therefore, I'm not condemning the hypothetical mother, but seriously questioning the logic.

...and Devrock, i do have one thing left that's confounding me, we could go round and round on the rest but this:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gaffa
I think rubbing hands, feet, backs, is different because it is also acceptable in friendly settings amongst adults. Touching someone's breasts is not
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be. Breasts should not be taboo.
Is cut and dry for me. My breasts are almost as sexually sensitive as my sexual organs. They are a HIGHLY erogenous zone. It would therefore be as inappropriate for anyone to touch them besides my husband or child, or someone I wanted to be aroused with should I not be married. I'm sure that's the case for many women.

Kind of off otpic...but that kind of had me going


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Tabitha- we posted at the same time! And fwiw, I agree with you in both your posts.
L


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

um, hello, my son has had continuous erections every single time he has nursed since the day he was born. Once he was 5 months old or so, he began to play with his erect penis while nursing. He will just sit and play with it now, he knows where and what it is and it is his body.
My dear Tabitha, I nurse a 17 month old boy who sometimes gets erections from the simplest things... a diaper change, a nursing session, whatever. There is a major difference between an 11 year old getting SEXUAL erections and discovering his mature sexual nature and a little boy unaware of sex and breasts used as stimulation for the act of making love. If this 11 yo. was shielded from our society for the rest of his life, he probably would, in the absence of abuse or manipulation (assuming it is a healthy BF relationship, of course), remember his nursing days fondly for the rest of his life. But, most likely, he will not be sheilded from all the movies and pictures and internet sites that perpetuate the breasts as sexual body parts. Therefore, the chances of his ending up on a therapist's couch or feeling like a total outcast for most of his life are pretty high.

I am sorry, but I would never use my 11 year old child to prove a point to society. There is absolutely no argument that there are TREMENDOUS differences between a small child and a "young adult" reaching puberty, if they have not already. That is not "society" speaking for me; I did not have a "desexualized" labor and birth... I had two very sensual homebirths, breastfed/am breastfeeding, and am extremely liberal in most of my thoughts and actions. I do believe that children need lines drawn. This child is either emotionally damaged in some way that requires the "nubbing" to take place, or the mother is.

Comparing a foot rub or a massage to sucking a breast is extreme. Following that logic, maybe the 11 year old can play with his mother's vagina because it is simply there for making and having babies? I don't mean to sound vulgar.... but, really, why is any part of us sexualized then? All of our parts have totally anatomical functions unrelated to sex.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*
Is cut and dry for me. My breasts are almost as sexually sensitive as my sexual organs. They are a HIGHLY erogenous zone. It would therefore be as inappropriate for anyone to touch them besides my husband or child, or someone I wanted to be aroused with should I not be married. I'm sure that's the case for many women.
Kind of off otpic...but that kind of had me going







*
An interesting thing to mention here is that in many less.... ahem... civilized cultures, breasts and penises are not taboo. I remember reading about one, where little boys would pass by the grandmas and the grandmas would affectionately 'tug' the little boy's penises, like you or i would pat a baby's hair.

we are socialized to believe in 'private parts'- they do not actually exist from birth. And while i used to be a stickler about personal space i certainly am over that now as the mamma of a toddler!

for example, 'naughtiness' and taboo in sex is so cultivated in our society and porn is hugely centered around, if not entirely inspired by 'being naughty' - the people who create and hand down judgements on what is naughty and what is 'pure' are usually also condemning porn. hmmm? its true that we can liberate ourselves from taboo and societal 'norms' and just live happy lives. do what you want with your body! teach your children to be free in that same way. really, there is no other way to overcome.

tabitha


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## WithHannahsHeart (Apr 22, 2003)

I was discussing this with dh, and Devrock, he has a couple questions for you regarding breasts not being sexual:
If not, do you actually not allow your partner to stimulate your breasts sexually?! What a crying shame, if you don't. ALso, if breasts are not inherently sexual, and if you don't care about societal boundaries, why not go around topless, so your nurslings may have access to your breasts whenever they like? And because my breasts are only meant for nursing children, I can let my children and other people touch my breasts at will, as if they didn't belong to me? I hardly think so.
I truly don't mean to be ugly in asking these questions, merely want you to see that it is ludicrous to say that breasts are solely meant as instruments of feeding/nurturing. As far as the other points you have raised, well, whatever. I can't get my head around it at all. We do have to live in the world, and not turn people off sbf (a phrase I like, btw) by refusing to have any boundaries whatsoever when it comes to how we utilize our bodies, i.e. breastfeeding. More flies with honey than vinegar, ykwim? I don't really expect this to get through to you, but feel masochistically compelled to point this all out.


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## zevulon (Dec 26, 2001)

Sexual problems??!!!

If breastfeeding until 11 causes a child to be sexually deviant from the standard American model, let's take the new governor of California for a role model perhaps, well...then let's breastfeed
until 12 or 16!!!

People saying they would call the police or offering any form of judgement on this really set off my prudish-morality-police-bigot
alarms.

Nobody has the right to interfer in the mutual affections between a mother and child. Period.

Junk food. Teaching sons that women are sexual toys. Preaching hate against some distant country. Physical discipline. This is abuse.

What this woman might have been doing is a matter for her and her quite-able-to-pull-himself-off-the-nipple-if-he-wishes-to child to decide. It isn't abuse.

I doubt she even exists. I imagine she is just a red herring and fantasy witch set up by anti-breastfeeders.

If she does exist, then I hope she goes on doing what she knows is right...and keeps her life very secret from all of those who think they know better and are so full of moral superiority that they are ready to call in the shock troops against one woman.

I gave up being into consensus and having a civil discussion. I just want to protect myself from the likes of those who have a direct line to John Ashcroft.


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## zevulon (Dec 26, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*ALso, if breasts are not inherently sexual, and if you don't care about societal boundaries, why not go around topless, so your nurslings may have access to your breasts whenever they like?*
We do just exactly that. Quick!!! Someone call the police over to our house!


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

We do too, zevulon!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I think that a thousand women bfing 2, 3 & 4 year olds need to go public, and a hundred women bfing 5-10 yr olds need to go public, as well as one woman bfing an 11 year old. The one woman bfing the 11 year old did her part. The 1100 women bfing 2-10 year olds need to do their part."

Devrock, I agree with you that women need to go public. But my point was that going public with an 11 year old is not going to help the cause, but hinder it. It is just toooo radical for most people to handle (even ebf's here are disagreeing, so the general public would use it as proof that ebf is wrong, period.)

In fact, I am one of those women who go public about ebf and about tandem nursing. I never, ever cover up my nursing, wherever I am. I am proud to tandem nurse my children. I answer questions about weaning and nursing honestly (except to my 85 year old neighbour, LOL, but I figure there's not a lot to gain by educating her). But having said that, I am careful about my audience, and if my children continued to nurse to 11, I would not go public about it. I'm honestly not sure at what age I'd become more careful about talking or nursing in public, but it would certainly be well before 11.

Maybe this doesn't make me the radical that I should be, but I do feel that by publicly tandem nursing my children and educating new mothers and mothers-to-be about nursing, I do my bit to change the world. (In fact, today I heard that a new mum that I gave info to during her pregnancy is now determined to exclusively nurse 'at least to one year', regardless of the pressures of her family to wean already - her baby is 2 months old







: )

I just don't happen to think that if my children are still nursing at eleven, it will help the breastfeeding cause if I talk about it in public. It would take thousands of women doing that to make a positive impact, and I seriously doubt that this is going to happen. This sort of story sets the breastfeeding cause back, it doesnt help it seem normal - instead, it reinforces the idea that it is the woman doing it for 'herself'.

Otherwise, ITA with your posts. I was not disagreeing, just questioning this mother's wisdom.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*I agree that most people are uncomfortable with it, some even disgusted by it, but I have to say that my experience has *not* been that most people view it as potential child abuse.*
Your experience obviously differs from my own. I hope I am wrong about most people thinking that breastfeeding a three year old is abuse.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*As an example, there was a piece on our local news about EBF which featured a local mother whose 4 year old dd is still nursing. The girl's face was not shown on camera (mother's choice, I bet) but they did interview her. She was very well spoken about how nursing made her feel calmer when she was upset about something. The piece mentioned the controversial nature of this practice, but it was sympathetic to the mother and child. They came off as very normal and loving. At the time I saw it, I was not yet a mother myself and EBF seemed very strange to me (although not psychologically damaging). The piece went a long way toward opening my mind.*
I'll bet that after the story ran, a hundred people wrote in condemning the practice and calling it sick, disgusting, abusive, etc., and condemning the newspaper for running such a story.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*why do you believe that a lack of acceptance toward bf a toddler or preschooler will lead to legal action? I don't know anyone who would call CPS on a an otherwise good mother just for nursing a 3 year old, even if they didn't like the practice.*
You're lucky. I wish I could say the same.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*I can't imagine an overburdened social worker spending much time and effort on such a case.*
Let's hope not.

Quote:

_Originally posted by luv my 2 sweeties_
*Just curious if you have some experience to the contrary.*
Unfortunately yes.

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*My breasts are almost as sexually sensitive as my sexual organs. They are a HIGHLY erogenous zone. It would therefore be as inappropriate for anyone to touch them besides my husband or child, or someone I wanted to be aroused with should I not be married.*
Really? Do you find it is difficult to allow breast exams to be performed? Yet your child does touch your breast and your child does breastfeed, and that doesn't stimulate you sexually, right? I do have sensitive nerve endings in my nipples, but nowhere else in my breasts. And my child manages to actually take my nipple into her mouth and suckle, without stimulating the nerves. It seems like someone should at least be able to pat the side of my breast without it bothering me. Of course, everyone sets their own personal boundaries, which other people should respect. I just don't think that breasts specifically should automatically be taboo for everyone. Personally, the only time my breast is "activated" as an erogenous zone is when I am in a romantic situation.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*most likely, he will not be sheilded from all the movies and pictures and internet sites that perpetuate the breasts as sexual body parts. Therefore, the chances of his ending up on a therapist's couch or feeling like a total outcast for most of his life are pretty high.*
And we must be careful to lay the blame for that on the guilty party: on the movies, and the pictures and the internet sites that perpetuate the breasts as sexual body parts. Not on the healthy breastfeeding relationship. Let's fight the enemy, not the victim.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*I would never use my 11 year old child to prove a point to society.*
I'm certain no one is asking you to. In fact, I don't know of anyone who would SBF for the sole purpose of proving a point to society. We SBF because we believe it is the right thing to do for our children. Proving a point to society is a perk.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*This child is either emotionally damaged in some way that requires the "nubbing" to take place, or the mother is.*
Again, you are engaging in sheer speculation. I am aware of absolutely no evidence to support such a contention.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*Comparing a foot rub or a massage to sucking a breast is extreme. Following that logic, maybe the 11 year old can play with his mother's vagina because it is simply there for making and having babies?*
Now, the vagina actually IS a genital. You cannot put feet and breasts in the same sexual category with the vagina. You said it, it is there for making babies. Its purpose is inherently sexual.

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*why is any part of us sexualized then? All of our parts have totally anatomical functions unrelated to sex.*
Intercourse actually is a primary function of the vagina.

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*If not, do you actually not allow your partner to stimulate your breasts sexually?! What a crying shame, if you don't.*
Yes, I allow my partner to stimulate my breasts, along with every other part of my body, during sex. Yes, it would be a shame if I had a hang up about using the same organ sexually that I use to feed my child.

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*ALso, if breasts are not inherently sexual, and if you don't care about societal boundaries, why not go around topless, so your nurslings may have access to your breasts whenever they like?*
That's a good idea. Why not? If we all went around topless, it would go a long way toward curing people of their hang-ups regarding breasts.

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*And because my breasts are only meant for nursing children, I can let my children and other people touch my breasts at will, as if they didn't belong to me?*
Certainly they belong to you, along with every other part of your body. It is entirely up to you which parts of your body you allow people to touch.

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*it is ludicrous to say that breasts are solely meant as instruments of feeding/nurturing.*
If you still think it's ludicrous then I guess I haven't gotten through to you.

Quote:

_Originally posted by chemigogo_
*We do have to live in the world, and not turn people off sbf (a phrase I like, btw) by refusing to have any boundaries whatsoever when it comes to how we utilize our bodies, i.e. breastfeeding.*
The whole point of SBF is that you don't set a boundary (assuming you mean an age limit?) for breastfeeding.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
*going public with an 11 year old is not going to help the cause, but hinder it. It is just toooo radical for most people to handle*
But it wouldn't be radical in the context of 100 other women going public about bfing 5-10 yr olds and 1000 other women going public about bfing 2-4 yr olds. It isn't this woman's fault that the not-as-extreme women haven't gone public, softening the way for her.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I don't know anyone who would call CPS on a an otherwise good mother just for nursing a 3 year old, even if they didn't like the practice.
But it has happened...there was a woman whose 2-yr-old was taken away because the woman had called a hotline to ask if it was normal to have an orgasm while nursing. And there have been mothers on this board who were nursing children under 5, and had been threatened with legal action.

I wonder what happens if a woman has an orgasm while giving birth...does her child get taken? Some women even masturbate during labor...I had sex long after contractions had started! I sure hope that's not illegal, and I don't see how it reflects on me as a parent.

I am another one who rarely wears shirts around the house. Easy access is great! It's always a mad dash to find clothes whenever someone knocks on the door.

If we are to say that breastfeeding can be abusive at a certain age, why don't we say that lack of breastfeeding is also abuse, especially since nearly all women are able to bf but just choose not to? Lack of breastfeeding causes far more serious problems - sometimes life threatening, and yes even in the USA - than ebf does.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

This thread seems to be nearly played out, but I'll put in one more word. I can agree to disagree. I do NOT think there should be a law against breast feeding at any age since it does get into privacy issues, and the legal bar would likely be set much too low (IMO). If someone wants to bring a complaint of abuse against this woman, it should be based on more than the simple act of SBF. I also see the merit of Devrock's (and others') argument that if we disagree with a cultural norm, we should define the norm as the problem rather than those who refuse to conform to it. Ultimately, I guess I'm not ready to disagree with the cultural norm in this case, though. (I am also not ready to say that BF an 11 year old is *always* wrong in every place and time, since I can't know every possible circumstance, but I have grave reservations. In this case, I am very troubled by the fact that the mother "brags" about it at work. That indicates to me that she may not have her child's best interest at heart.)

The one argument I've heard that I really don't agree with at all is that if a child wants to do something, he must have a legitimate and normal need. With regard to BF, this is certainly true of babies and toddlers. (Studies of biology and anthropology back this up.) Preschoolers and slightly older children may have a need as well, although sometimes their request to nurse may have as much to do with boredom as anything else. (I have heard this at many LLL meetings, so it *must* be true!







) But there *are* limits for everything, and in a few cases, the mother may need to take a more active role to help her child find ways to replace nursing as a coping strategy. Even in the animal world, you can see mothers taking a role in weaning. They will cut nursing sessions short, or refuse to nurse all together as their young approach or exceed the normal age for weaning. I'm not arguing against child-led weaning per se, I'm just saying that a mother's instinct and experience is as important and _natural_ as a child's. A mother brings to the relationship her experience and wisdom. Not all children develop normally; physical, mental, and emotional problems *do* occur. They are usually not anyone's fault, but it's the parent's job to prevent these problems where possible and seek treatment for them when prevention is not possible. For example, a child's desire to wash her hands when they are dirty is normal and healthy, but if she starts "needing" to wash her hands 20 times a day, something is wrong. As a parent, I would be remiss if I simply gave in to this "need" without exploring what might be causing such unusual behavior. (This is an imperfect example, since excessive hand washing is *never* normal, whereas breastfeeding is *always* normal for infants. Someone earlier mentioned toileting, which may be a better example. I think the point is still valid.)

I stand by my opinion that BF and 11 year old boy in this (or any?) culture is unhealthy. Criminal? No. Bad or lazy parenting? Probably. Risky? Yes.

Oy. I've spent too much time on this debate - my house is a mess!


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## gaffa (Sep 1, 2002)

Once again, I'm nursing a 3 year old, haven't worn a shirt for 3 years now around the house for the most part. Have no body issues, am certainly not modest about nudity etc, am not conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

i just don't want the image of all those dissenting to be that of conservative, not comfortable with breasts people. Everyone I know has seen mine by now! Hunter pushed my shirt practically over my head to nurse for the most part.

So I am perfectly comfortable with breasts. Perfectly comfortable with other people's nudity, completely, but I still don't agree with the proposed scenario.

Once again just because I don't agree doesn't mean I demonize it either. Just don't really agree.


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## andriagirlie (Oct 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Devrock_
*

It should be. Breasts should not be taboo.

*

Quote:

_Originally posted by gaffa_
*It would therefore be as inappropriate for anyone to touch them besides my husband or child, or someone I wanted to be aroused with should I not be married. I'm sure that's the case for many women.

Kind of off otpic...but that kind of had me going







*
Yeah, I am thinking the same thing. I think that it would fall under the definition of harassment (to say the least), if just anyone felt it was appropriate to handle my breasts when they felt like being friendly to me.


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## andriagirlie (Oct 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*If this 11 yo. was shielded from our society for the rest of his life, he probably would, in the absence of abuse or manipulation (assuming it is a healthy BF relationship, of course), remember his nursing days fondly for the rest of his life. But, most likely, he will not be sheilded from all the movies and pictures and internet sites that perpetuate the breasts as sexual body parts. Therefore, the chances of his ending up on a therapist's couch or feeling like a total outcast for most of his life are pretty high.

I am sorry, but I would never use my 11 year old child to prove a point to society.

Comparing a foot rub or a massage to sucking a breast is extreme. Following that logic, maybe the 11 year old can play with his mother's vagina because it is simply there for making and having babies? I don't mean to sound vulgar.... but, really, why is any part of us sexualized then? All of our parts have totally anatomical functions unrelated to sex.*
Well said.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Reading through the first 5 pages of posts did not convince me that nursing an 11 year old was acceptable behavior. Sure, it was said over and over (devrock) that if you draw the line at 11, then someone else might draw it at 2. I was like, oh no, *I'm* totally normal (DD weaned at 50 months, DS is nursing at 25 months). No one would think that about such a little child.

THEN a MDC momma came and said she thought 12-18 was good, maybe up to three. Whoa! Jump off the high horse (me).

I'm glad I kept reading, because I realized that I actually do think this could be a healthy behavior from a healthy child that will grow up to be a healthy adult. We need to remember that not everyone will fit within the average or norm.

Now, I personally would be worried in the situation if the mom seems to talk about it to everyone. If she mentions it at a LLL meeting? No, that seems appropriate. If she finds a way to bring it up in non related conversations at work? Makes me wonder why. Even if the child wasn't sexually mature at all, unless they are living in a cave, they probably know that nursing at 11 is not "normal." That doesn't mean they need to stop, but that *THEY* might want their privacy. When DD was nursing past 4 I didn't hide it, but I didn't bring it up either. I *knew* that people would view her differently (at preschool and such) if they knew that one tiny thing about her.

So, I guess in this situation that is my actual concern. If I had an 11 year old who sucked their thumb, used a pacifier, etc... I WOULD NOT make that public information. Sure, I think a lot of kids probably do suck their thumbs past "normal" ages, but I would be afraid of my child being embarrassed if other people knew. Like if I mentioned that at work and it got back to his school that he sucked his thumb he might be made fun of. Do I think that sucking his thumb *itself* will make him be a freak adult? No, but the public ridicule might.

Kay


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

OT (slightly), but I just wanted to add:

Breasts are not inheirantly sexual. This is a biological fact. They are actually no more sexual than the ears, elbow, whatever. They don't have extra nerve endings, nothing like that. There are many cultures that have *no* sexual attachment to breasts, and even some that do consider breasts sexually attractive don't use them in sex play. It is a western construct that has traveled, but still completely cultural.

Now, I personally enjoy the enjoyment of breasts in sex. BUT, I would also be happy being able to walk around without a shirt (in situations where men walk around without shirts) if it were physically comfortable (I think I might actually want a *little* support).

Kay


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

I too am rather "shameless" when nursing children. As I said before, I nurse anywhere and everywhere, and I know few toddlers/children who are discreet about it







EVERYONE in my life has seen my breasts at one time or another.

But more on point, I find the concept of pre-teens nursing questionable at the least. Would I "report" a situation like that on its merits alone (I.e. nursing, but otherwise relatively "normal" dynamics), No. Would I give that situation more scrutiny and be more curious and watchful of that child (assume I have some sort of relationship with them)? Absolutely.

I can say that if I was nursing an older child (say over the age of 5 or 6), I certainly would not tell casual aquaintences (like co-workers and friends/family outside my intimate circle) about it. It would be a private decision between me and my child and family and I would never want to give anyone a way to shame, ridicule, or otherwise hurt my baby because we share a practice that is drastically outside the cultural norm...doesn't mean I would stop doing it to conform, but I certainly would advertise in a way that could bring harm to my child and our relationship,

If this situation is true, that that is what is most disturbing to me... She is not only putting herself up for scrutiny, but she is also putting her child up. And whose to say the guy she told doesn't have like aged children who will pass last night's dinner conversation on about "Bobby" nursing to his peers at school.

I guess that means I am not a crusader, and that is o.k. with me... I will not crusade at the potential expense of my children.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Chemigogo - thank you.

Just because my own personal comfort level is lower than most on this board does not mean anyone nursing a 3,4, 5 year old needs to worry I would report them to CPS. To me, there are reasons (because we live in the society we do) that it could have negative consequences (as well as the positive ones). I am not personally comfortable seeing an older child nursed but of course am free to not look.

I went to a "breastfeeding the older child" support group at a local hospital once years ago - it was advertised for moms with children over 6 months! Mine was about 10 months at the time and I was not sure when we would wean. A woman there nursed her 5 1/2 year old daughter (no, it doesn't make any difference in my thoughts on this if the child is a girl or a boy) multiple times during the one hour meeting - I never saw a "reason" (got hurt, tired, etc.) that was obvious to those of us at the meeting. No one said anything negative to her. I did not call anyone about it. But it did make me uncomfortable and I didn't go back. That is fine. Both her right to do it and mine to be uncomfortable I suppose.

But I agree with whomever said that we can support, find acceptable, whatever, a three year old nursing but find an 11 year old nursing to be unacceptable. It is not all or nothing. I am anti-drug and cannot imagine any circumstance that doing heroin would be ok but even though I would not smoke pot and find smoking pot to be a negative thing in general, I do know those who do for recreation and are perfectly wonderful people who are making that choice. I also can find it acceptable, even supported, to use pot during chemo treatments. I don't think you have to say pot is ok for everyone at any age/circumstance OR pot is never ok. I don't understand the "no lines" thing.

Devrock, you are obviously very skilled at debate. You have brought up some examples and analogies that did make me think/wonder about some of my views. So even though my opinions are radically different from your own, thank you for making some thought-provoking points.
Kirsten


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Chemigogo - thank you.

Just because my own personal comfort level is lower than most on this board does not mean anyone nursing a 3,4, 5 year old needs to worry I would report them to CPS. To me, there are reasons (because we live in the society we do) that it could have negative consequences (as well as the positive ones). I am not personally comfortable seeing an older child nursed but of course am free to not look.

I went to a "breastfeeding the older child" support group at a local hospital once years ago - it was advertised for moms with children over 6 months! Mine was about 10 months at the time and I was not sure when we would wean. A woman there nursed her 5 1/2 year old daughter (no, it doesn't make any difference in my thoughts on this if the child is a girl or a boy) multiple times during the one hour meeting - I never saw a "reason" (got hurt, tired, etc.) that was obvious to those of us at the meeting. No one said anything negative to her. I did not call anyone about it. But it did make me uncomfortable and I didn't go back. That is fine. Both her right to do it and mine to be uncomfortable I suppose.

But I agree with whomever said that we can support, find acceptable, whatever, a three year old nursing but find an 11 year old nursing to be unacceptable. It is not all or nothing. I am anti-drug and cannot imagine any circumstance that doing heroin would be ok but even though I would not smoke pot and find smoking pot to be a negative thing in general, I do know those who do for recreation and are perfectly wonderful people who are making that choice. I also can find it acceptable, even supported, to use pot during chemo treatments. I don't think you have to say pot is ok for everyone at any age/circumstance OR pot is never ok. I don't understand the "no lines" thing.

Devrock, you are obviously very skilled at debate. You have brought up some examples and analogies that did make me think/wonder about some of my views. So even though my opinions are radically different from your own, thank you for making some thought-provoking points.
Kirsten


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Kirsten, I 'm just curious at what age you would begin to call the police or CPS. You say that it's not 3,4 or 5, but you would call for an 11y/o BFing. At what age _would[/] you being to think SN warranted a call to the authorities?
Lauren_


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

This may be kind of far-fetched, but please remember, when making comments about how that is child abuse and that is a bad parent, that some moms on this board may be nursing children of that age. Maybe not, but it's certainly a possibility. I know there are moms here nursing children as old as 7 or 8. They don't deserve to be ridiculed.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Of course no one deserves to be ridiculed, but I don't think stating my opinion about the topic at hand (I made a "bad parenting" statement, as did others) constitutes ridicule. Someone else made some comments about feeding junk food and other common practices being "abuse". I think most of this debate has been very civilized and reasoned. (I'm impressed with *all* of us!







) If someone here is bf an 11 year old and is offended by this debate, she is free not to read it, but debate of that topic *is* the subject of this thread.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Well, having caught up on this thread....I can feel my mental gears shifting just that little bit more.









Thank-you Devrock.









Count me in as one mom who has breastfed her then 3 year old in public. Now she's almost 4.5 and doesn't ask when we're out, her personal progression.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

You know, I am LOL at the statement that I keep reading here over and over and over again - that there is "absolutely no evidence that any sort of abuse is going on." Um, there is absolutely no evidence that there isn't, either! Like a few have mentioned already, this is probably a hypothetical debate to begin with. So to assume that one would have evidence EITHER WAY is pretty funny.

I'm just stating that due to the LACK of evidence either way, there is probably something "wrong" with the mother or child. You go on and on about how it is SOCIETY that needs to change, not the mother and child... but society will NOT magically change in the next year or so. So this child *is* going to be drastically affected by our twisted society, whether we agree with this society or not! I'm not saying that mom and child are only doing this to prove a point to society... just that it is naive to think that our twisted society will not affect this child. I would never put my *own* child through that.

I do think that if we looked deeply into this family, we would probably find that there are emotional issues that cause the child to need to "nub" in the first place. If there are not emotional issues there now, there most likely will be issues later. I really agree that society's views of breasts and female sexuality is totally skewed, and it is the 11 year old that is going to pay for it in the long run because I can guarantee that this society will not magically transform itself overnight.







:


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

It would be interesting to ask adults who were bfed this long as kids to tell us what it was like for them and if they regretted it, or if they suffered because of it. I know there are moms here who remember being nursed, and they speak positively about it.

People also claim that homeschooling will cause psychological harm, as will cosleeping, yet most kids who grow up this way report positive feelings about it.


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## Mutherluv (Apr 19, 2003)

I just wanted to ask a question. I bf my dd, she was not intrested in nursing after age 13mos. I never denied access, or did anything to premote her to stop, she just did. We still cuddled, and had a wonderful relationship. My ds, is now 20mos, and doesn't show any signs of stopping, which is fine. Well, here is my question, will all the parents that support ebf be dissappointed if there infant/toddler/preschooler self wean before the mother thinks they should?


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mutherluv_
*IWell, here is my question, will all the parents that support ebf be dissappointed if there infant/toddler/preschooler self wean before the mother thinks they should?*
I will be very disappointed if my son weans before he's 2 years old. I want for him to nurse for at least 2 years, and as long thereafter as he wants. If he stops before that time, I'm willing to pump my milk and give it to him in a sippy cup. I'd also keep offering the breast for a while, in case it turned out to be a nursing strike.
My mom says that I stopped nursing at about a year old. My brother went on to nurse for 2.5 years. My brother has no allergies, and I have TONS of environmental allergies. I hope my son doesn't have the same fate as I.

-Debi


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, and BTW, Devrock, I have enormous respect for your opinion and your ability to debate a topic such as this one. Even if I don't agree 100%, I can still see where you are coming from and I can see your side of the story.


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## tnrsmom (Apr 8, 2002)

_Mod Note

This thread is being closed at the request of the OP. We both feel that it has done very well for 8 pages but that all the good that is able to come out of it already has.

~Stephanie~_


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