# hard decision



## arianascrunchymama (Dec 9, 2009)

I posted on here probably about a month ago about DH being adamantly pro-circ and I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. We're in counseling right now because the circumcision debate caused a huge rift in our relationship. It got to the point where we agreed that if we couldn't make a decision we wouldn't have any more kids together- something we both desperately want. Neither one of us is content with only one child (regardless of how much joy and love DD brings us), so we brought up divorce. Now we have other issues to work out, but that's a whole 'nother post!

Since DD's birth I've been the one doing the legwork as far as researching parenting decisions, but I thought I made an effort to make DH feel included in the final say. We don't vax, we're ERF and EBF. I had a pretty traumatic hospital birth (vaginal, but I was a body in a bed hooked up to monitors instead of a laboring woman) so I also am passionate about having a HB next time around. DH was hesitant because of a lack of knowledge and mainstream "brainwashing" so I brought over a local midwife to talk with us. He asked a ton of questions and in the end gave the green light.

He's read all my links, watched a few circ videos, read the history and all the statistics AND even done his own research (which ended up being pro-circ biased websites). His main problem with having an intact son is that a) he's circ'd so he wouldn't know how to teach him how to clean himself and b) he would hate for our maybe future son to be rejected/teased by girls over a decision we made. DH dealt with a lot of rejection when he was a teenager so I understand his need to protect his children from the same fate... I really do. He threw out this ultimatum that has my mind reeling: *"You always get your way, so how about we compromise: if we can have a hospital birth, we can leave any sons intact."*

Part of me wants to jump all over that, but the other part vividly recalls crying and yelling at the nurses and gets chills when I think about setting foot in a hospital to give birth again. I can always "accidentally" wait to long to go to the hospital, but that's dishonest and I want DH to be an active participant in a HB. Then again, I could "let him get his way" and say yes to circumcising and pray that he has a change of heart once we're dealing with a real, live child rather than a hypothetical one.

help!


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## Shellie (Dec 29, 2003)

In your situation, I might do it. Sort of a compromise. Of course my feminist side disagrees.







Although I do want to point out that you can have a wonderful hospital birth--I had one after a traumatic one.

I fail to understand men who so adamantly want to circ even after knowing the facts and seeing modern circ rates, etc. In our family, dh is circed and our two sons aren't. Teaching them how to clean themselves? A non-issue until they're retractable and then it's as simple as me saying "swish some water around when you pull your foreskin back."

Does your dh know there's no special care and that in some parts of the US, circed boys are the minority or close to it?


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## AustinMom (Jul 16, 2008)

I agree with original poster on the circ point. Intact boys make up the majority. And, no extra "help" is needed to teach a boy how to clean properly it's pretty much, swish water with skin pulled back, no biggie.

As far as being teased, kids are going to tease other kids regardless. He can be too tall, too short, different clothes, etc. Parents can't prevent that. Sorry to rain on his parade.

As far as the compromise goes, I feel that's a crappy one. I believe the way the baby comes into the world should be mostly up to the mom, after all, it is you who has the baby, not him, and you who needs to feel comfortable doing do in order to not have a traumatic birth. That's wrong of him to use that as a bargaining chip, to me, it's not a chip available to him.

Maybe have a talk with your Ped about it. The AAP says it's cosmetic surgery and not needed. If he wants, the Ped can show him how to clean himself on his yearly check up.

My hub is circ-ed and our son is intact. In short, I believe that skin is there for a reason, and most men would agree with that.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

Have you tried taking the angle that this isn't a decision either one of you have the right to be making?

The penis in question belongs to your child and it is his decision to as to what he wants to do with it, you are simply preserving it in its intact state until he is old enough to tackle the issue.

I would not compromise my birth experience but I also strongly feel that performing cosmetic surgery on our children is not a right that belongs to DH or myself.

And for what it's worth DH is intact and had a circumcised father, he figured out the cleaning thing and was not traumatized by a childhood in a town where the vast majority of boys were circumcised.


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## mommy2two babes (Feb 7, 2007)

I agree that that is crappy compromise.
Do you think that he really wants a hospital birth or he just thinks you want a HB more than you don't want circ?

Honestly I would be willing to have hosp birth if that was the only compromise I could make work. ( this from someone really traumatized by hospitals) I also think that if it came down to it and my DH knowing how I felt would back down and opt for the HB anyways.


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## arianascrunchymama (Dec 9, 2009)

I know all this, and I've tried telling him! I think my exact words were "yeah, because it's really hard to ask a teenage boy to play with himself in the shower!"







He does tune me out after a while and gets very defensive. I don't know how to bring up his own vulnerability without making him feel picked apart. He's *VERY* defensive of his mother so I think a very large part of it is somehow validating his mother's decision (she was 16 when he was born) to have him circumcised.

I definitely feel that where and how other children get brought into the world should be my decision *especially* since he was the one siding the with nurses and sleeping on the pull out bed in my hospital room! But this is the first time he's offered to give a little so I'm thinking of jumping on it. Maybe the best thing to do is just leave it undecided since we're not even TTC and hope and pray for him to come around.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Honestly, I'd tell him that I would birth the way I choose, and my son would have a penis in a state that he (my son) chose. And then I would end the discussion. Neither cutting off part of my baby's body nor my comfort during birth are topics up for compromise.

For the record, your husband is grasping at straws in his arguments and he knows it. Any reliable medical source (even ones that treat circing as neutral or potentially positive) tell you that you don't need to do anything special to clean an intact penis. There is no need for your husband to teach your son anything. As for the rejection argument - what if he is rejected/teased because he is circ'ed?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

agree with eclipse tell him how you feel one final time (that it will not be done period) then drop it. When/if the time comes leave your ds intact and deal with it then.


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## Shellie (Dec 29, 2003)

For some reason I thought you were already pg and expecting a boy! In that case, I think you have time to convince him. I personally wouldn't get pregnant again till you do. He's being really stubborn (no offense...my dh can be too about certain things) but it sounds like if you can get him to open his mind a bit, maybe he will come around. It would be really sad if you had to stop having kids due to this disagreement but as a mom I would never back down on nocirc.

You can point out that choosing to leave any future sons' foreskins intact is not the same as saying his mother made a mistake. When we know better, we do better.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

yep.

I also missed that you aren't even pregnant right now. I just wouldn't talk to him about it anymore, period.


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## Bea (Apr 6, 2008)

How does he cope with being the father of a daughter given that they have such different genitals?

How will he cope with teaching her to wash her 'bits' at bath time in the coming year or two?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I had two hospital births.........a really traumatic one and then a really great one. The second time, I found a female OB who was due a few months before me!! Needless to say, she had total empathy for me.


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## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

It's an awfully personal question to ask a guy, but do you know any intact men who could talk your husband around?

DH wanted circumcision for our son. We talked and waited, talked and waited, but I think the nail in the coffin was when I had one of my brothers talk to DH over the phone. My brothers are intact, and this one was able to convince DH that it wasn't a big deal to be uncirced.

Apparently most men DON'T look when they're using the restroom.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Honestly, I wouldn't make that compromise. He can choose where and what type of medical care he gets but as long as the baby is coming out of my body I'm choosing the birth place. As for the circ decision, IMO it's not the parents to make. The boy can decide once he is an adult. But I'm in the over my dead body camp, and I told my dh that when we originally disagreed. He did come around but it took a few years and he is now an intactivist and has talked to friends about keeping their kids intact.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

Nope, I wouldn't bite. Like a PP said, he doesn't care that your future sons will be intact if he's willing to compromise. You are the one going through labor, you are the one who gets to decide where and how you do it. I understand that marriage is about compromises, but he's not issuing an ultimatum out of love and concern. If he was so concerned about home birth and not circumcising, he wouldn't have made the offer.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I wonder what your counselor would say about the deal that your dh is offering you? I agree with pps who think that it's a sign that this issue is as much or more about control as it is about circumcision.

Honestly, though, if you felt that he would eventually come 'round, I'd almost be tempted to take him up on that hospital deal, IF you could find a CNM or OB who you felt you could trust for a natural, intervention-free labor. Assisted homebirths aren't really an option where I am (Yet: the law changes in July







) - so my girls were both hospital births. I'm lucky, I've got a great OB and have had natural labors (second better than my first, because I knew to ask for delayed cord clamping and babe directly to breast). I can't compare them to home birth, but can say that from what I've seen and read, even here on MDC, I had very positive births. So, it's possible that you could find an HCP who would be able to support you with a great natural hospital labor.

But again, I think the root issue is larger - control and respect.


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## billikengirl (Sep 12, 2008)

Why is he suggesting hospital birth as the compromise? To punish you for not circing? Or because he knows how traumatic it would be for you, he thinks it would force you to circ?









A wise MDC poster once said that "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *billikengirl* 

A wise MDC poster once said that "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."

I love this!


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arianascrunchymama* 
He's *VERY* defensive of his mother so I think a very large part of it is somehow validating his mother's decision (she was 16 when he was born) to have him circumcised.

Does he realize that when he was born (depending on how old he is) his mom (especially at her age) was probably not actually consulted. They didn't even start consent forms till the mid '70s. Even once there were consent forms it was just one more sheet of paper in the stack to sign. They didn't start actually _asking_ if one wanted to circ till about a decade ago (still don't ask in some places,) it was just something they did automatically like cutting the umbilical cord.


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## starryeyedmama (Mar 3, 2010)

I can relate to dealing with a father who is pro-circ. Fortunately for me and my DS once I estabished that circ. was not an option for us he complied. Stand your ground and stop trying to reach an agreement with him. My son's father is totally adjusted to it now and we have two more boys due in June. Personally, I have experienced intimacy with an uncircumsized man and never felt anything negative towards him whatsoever!!! You will never regret protecting your son from unneccesary pain....blessings and strength are being sent to you from one loving mom to another.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

So, his compromise is to make the decision about your body, instead of your son's?

I wouldn't do it, and I'd be thinking long and hard about having another child with him. Reading his "compromise" in your post sent a shiver down my back. That says to me that he doesn't care that much about circ, because if he did, he wouldn't be willing to "trade". He just wants the say over either your body or your potential son's body. Ick.


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## ElliesMomma (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

i agree.

and i would just like to point out that you *can* have a great experience giving birth in a hospital. you must shop around for a really good hospital. use a midwife, not an OB. and hire a doula. get to the hospital when you are already very far along in labor. get there just in time to push the baby out. (pain meds won't even be an issue). go in there with a birth plan that you work out with the doula ahead of time. i was able to do all of the above, and didn't get hooked up to any monitors. i walked the halls during transition. i labored on my feet all the way up until crowning, at which point i chose my own birthing position and pushed the baby out easily, one push for his head, another for his body. my awesome hospital has its policy to put baby on mom's chest immediately, and i got to tell them when i was ready for him to be weighed, etc.... couple hours later. they were very respectful. AND my 3 year old daughter was allowed in the delivery room with us, she woke up from sleeping just as her brother cried for the first time upon being delivered. so it really was a very good experience.

from listening to others in my DDC, home birth is a *goal* and doesn't always pan out successfully anyway. my DDC buddy wanted a HB, and wound up hospitalized for it, which turned out to be a good thing as she had some pretty severe complications that could have been tragic if she hadn't been in the hospital.

and finally, *if* you do wind up birthing a boy in a hospital, be prepared to keep your eyes on him 24/7 while you recover. you don't want an "accidental" circumcision. one of the OBs in my "group" was at my bedside at 7 am the next morning after the baby was born at 1 am, asking if i wanted him circumcised. stay vigilent, especially if your husband would be apt to "speak up" for you while you are sleeping. OK one more thing -- when you give birth in a hospital, it is *your* decision to circumcise b/c *you* are the patient, not your husband. it's *your* signature that is required. your husband could take (hypothetical) son elsewhere at a later time, but in order to have it done in the day or two after birth during your hospital stay, requires your OK. simply refuse to give your consent.

my 2 cents.

and ps: unsolicited advice, but decide if you really want to stay with a man who gets this bent out of shape over desire to circumcise... that you wind up in marriage counseling over it. is this really the issue, or is it, as previously mentioned, about his desire for control?


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Eugh. I think I'd be tempted to snap "Honey, how about this: I make decisions concerning MY body, and our son makes the decisions concerning HIS body, and you do whatever you want with YOUR body". Or, if I was in a particularly bad mood, "Sweetie, let's compromise about _your_ body for a change - I was wanting to cut off your ear, but I won't if you agree not to eat for a month". Really, neither your body (the birth) nor your son's (circumcision) are his domain, unless he can prove a legitimate safety issue, which it seems he can't. Grrrr.

I had a traumatic hospital birth too. I can't imagine my horror if DH, who knew what I went through, was willing to put me in that situation for no good reason. That's so uncaring! No, one traumatic hospital birth does not necessarily doom you to another, but there's a reason they tell birth trauma victims to change as many things about the location and circumstances of the previous birth as possible for the next birth, you know? If your DH has _agreed_ that homebirthing is safe, he has no grounds for being so callous. Maybe remind him that he greenlighted HB?

I'd be worried about having another child with a guy willing to give you that choice, too.







Was he not there during your traumatic hospital birth? Maybe remind him what it was like for you, and ask him why he's willing to put you through it again? I'm sorry you're in this situation.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

What about letting your future son decide. Leave your boy intact and when he reaches his teens, ask him if he'd rather be circ'd. Seems like a fair compromise - if he's being teased or feels it's too difficult to clean he can opt to have it done then.

If your DH says, "Well, what kid is going to willingly go in for surgery on his penis??!" Say, "Well, what parent willingly sends their baby in for surgery on his penis?"

Don't compromise on the HB - that is YOUR labor, not his.


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## vermontgirl (Aug 15, 2006)

Why does he care so much about what happens to your son's penis? It is a little strange when a parent has that much interest in their child's genitals-in your case divorce could even happen because of it. RIDICULOUS and DISGUSTING! This subject should not even be up for debate. Not your penis= not your choice.


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## emnic77 (Sep 12, 2009)

Personally, I would not take that compromise and I would probably be more angry about it than ever because it's so clearly based on power struggle and not evidence or fact.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emnic77*
Personally, I would not take that compromise and I would probably be more angry about it than ever because it's so clearly based on power struggle and not evidence or fact.









Absolutely. There's a lot going on here and I find it really disturbing that, having witnessed your hospital birth experience and presumably having heard from you afterwards about your feelings about your experience, he'd be willing to force you to choose between protecting yourself and protecting your child.

Don't let him get away with this. I would put my foot down and say both of those options are off the table and they are not your choice. You figure out another way to get your need for respect in this relationship validated because I for damn sure am not going to respect you if you force me into cutting my child or risking another traumatic birth.


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## ursaminor (Mar 28, 2009)

I feel for you mama. but I must say, I would never let DH bully me into any decision regarding the birth and care of my child. The reason I chose a HB was to have a non-violent experience for not just myself, but my son. What is the point of having a wonderful, peaceful, respectful HB if you are just going to take your baby to a hospital for an unnecessary procedure? the pain and trauma of circ can interfere with bfing, and the cortisol levels in a circumcised newborn dont go back to baseline until months and months later. Protect your rights and instincts as a mother, they are there for a reason.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I have to agree that your husband's wheeling and dealing seems creepy, and more about power/control than the issues at hand. The fact that he would force you to choose between something that he KNOWS is traumatizing to you and your body in every way and the bodily integrity of your son is... not a good sign. I'd keep working on these issues in therapy before getting pregant for sure, and I would not compromise on either issue. For me, neither is up for debate or compromise.

I love the idea of just leaving it up to your son. If he reaches the age of 18 (or whatever age/stage you think is appropriate) and wants a circumcision, let it be his decision. By saying you don't want to make that call for your son, you are not doing something TO him, you know?


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I forgot to say! If one of his points of contention is that he is worried about washing your son's intact penis, just tell him he doesn't have to do it. I mean, it's no more difficult than washing a finger for a good long time (maybe your husband doesn't know about not retracting?). But I am the one who most often gives our intact son a bath anyway, so I do the penis-washing. I don't think twice about it, any more than I would think twice about washing his elbow. It's honestly easier than getting his face and hands clean sometimes!


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## HERO (Mar 10, 2010)

Do not give in to your hub! I'm not a mother, I'm a man. I don't have children yet but if I do, and it's a boy, he WILL NOT be circumcised. PERIOD.

The difference between father and son is almost a non-issue, at least for the son.Take me, for example. My dad is circed, I am not. I noticed and asked, question was answered and the only part that bothered me was thinking "they cut penises?!?". So there's the "we should look alike" reason, nonsense.

As for being rejected by girls. I'm 24, still kind of young lol, I have NEVER been denied because of my "status". Have there been questions asked? Yes, but they were of an inqusitive nature, if they noticed at all. If there ever was/will be any objections, I'll call them a cab. I'm smart AND good looking (I know it's the internet and people can say whatever they want, but I am), I don't have to take that.

There maybe more reasons posted that your hubbz has but honestly, I don't remember and for some reason it is not being displayed.

Final thoughts, DON'T DO IT, hospitals are ruthless, and just don't do it.

Forgive me if men are not welcome on this forum, but I stumbled across The CAC and just had to comment, encourage or admire all the people that are a cut above the rest (or uncut above the rest).

Refrences: Me, a smart, good looking 24 year old male in the U.S. (I'm not a narcissist lol, it is not my intention to sound callous or arrogant but sometimes it just happens







)


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HERO* 
Forgive me if men are not welcome on this forum, but I stumbled across The CAC and just had to comment, encourage or admire all the people that are a cut above the rest (or uncut above the rest).

Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

Quote:

a) he's circ'd so he wouldn't know how to teach him how to clean himself
So what. Not a reason for surgery. Circed fathers can feel threatened by a son with an intact penis.

Quote:

b) he would hate for our maybe future son to be rejected/teased by girls over a decision we made.
Makes no sense. An intact penis is NOT a result of a parental decision (though a circed penis is). Anyway as someone has in their siggy, a foreskin is a good stupid woman filter.

Quote:

DH dealt with a lot of rejection when he was a teenager so I understand his need to protect his children from the same fate... I really do.
Children can INVENT reasons for teasing/rejection. Another absurd reason for surgery. Circ will not defend him from anything.

Quote:

He threw out this ultimatum that has my mind reeling: "You always get your way, so how about we compromise: if we can have a hospital birth, we can leave any sons intact."
You're the one giving birth so you choose where and how you do it. This is a form of blackmail. Can you let him have his own way over something which isn't detrimental to someone else?


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## momongeon (Oct 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

I agree. It sounds a lot like my DH. We settled on a car for my 1st ds' foreskin. Clearly it was not important enough to him. Here is my theory on that with a little experience. DH and I have been together for over 10 yrs married for almost 6. We started TTC 3 mo after we were married and circ became a topic of conversation right away. DH was VERY pro-circ and ended many conversations with "if it's a boy he WILL be circ'd, there is no discussion" I cried myself to sleep almost every night thinking about my baby being strapped down to a cold board and having his foreskin cut from his perfect body. I was working so hard just to form the damn foreskin just to cut it off. It made no sense to me. So he suggested a compromise. I chose the cheaper car (which I liked slightly more than the other) just to keep all future boys, including the one I was pg with, intact. Very stupid if you ask me.
Years later after many conversations about how happy I was and how boys should NEVER be forced without consent to go through an elective cosmetic procedure, he said I had to stop talking about it with friends b/c it was embarrassing. He then, to my shock, admitted that he was glad we did what we did and he wishes he was given the choice!!! WHAT?!?!?! I nearly fell over. He had a few drinks in him (AKA truth serum) so I knew he was sincere. So here is where I tell my theory. I believe that the evidence I found and shared with DH may have convinced him I was right. He would never admit that unless under the influence. I think he didn't want to be responsible for the decision if it turned out to be a mistake.

With that I think your DH is trying to barter so he can get out of being responsible for that decision. If I were in your situation I would not give in to that compromise. I am sure there is something better you could barter for







Best of all you have plenty of time to find the perfect thing!!!


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momongeon* 
I agree. It sounds a lot like my DH. We settled on a car for my 1st ds' foreskin. Clearly it was not important enough to him. Here is my theory on that with a little experience. DH and I have been together for over 10 yrs married for almost 6. We started TTC 3 mo after we were married and circ became a topic of conversation right away. DH was VERY pro-circ and ended many conversations with "if it's a boy he WILL be circ'd, there is no discussion" I cried myself to sleep almost every night thinking about my baby being strapped down to a cold board and having his foreskin cut from his perfect body. I was working so hard just to form the damn foreskin just to cut it off. It made no sense to me. So he suggested a compromise. I chose the cheaper car (which I liked slightly more than the other) just to keep all future boys, including the one I was pg with, intact. Very stupid if you ask me.
Years later after many conversations about how happy I was and how boys should NEVER be forced without consent to go through an elective cosmetic procedure, he said I had to stop talking about it with friends b/c it was embarrassing. He then, to my shock, admitted that he was glad we did what we did and he wishes he was given the choice!!! WHAT?!?!?! I nearly fell over. He had a few drinks in him (AKA truth serum) so I knew he was sincere. So here is where I tell my theory. I believe that the evidence I found and shared with DH may have convinced him I was right. He would never admit that unless under the influence. I think he didn't want to be responsible for the decision if it turned out to be a mistake.

With that I think your DH is trying to barter so he can get out of being responsible for that decision. If I were in your situation I would not give in to that compromise. I am sure there is something better you could barter for







Best of all you have plenty of time to find the perfect thing!!!

This is very insightful and makes a lot of sense. I've seen lots of post where a mom let the dad pick something else he felt was important so he would feel like he was having input into the childrearing decisions. I've seen a lot where the mom went along with the dad's choice of names (we almost used DH name choice, but MIL vetoed it







.) I let DH choose the diapers we used (kirkland's sposies.)


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## 4chunut1 (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.









Sadly, you are SO right... It SHOULD be the males/fathers taking the lead on this issue, especially the circumcised men. THEY should be insisting that their sons have the choice about their bodies, a choice that was denied them... IF enough men took the lead on this, circumcision would quickly become a relic of the past.


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## intactDS (Dec 8, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.


















speaking as the intact son of a mother who feels the same way, THANK YOU!!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Eugh. I think I'd be tempted to snap "Honey, how about this: I make decisions concerning MY body, and our son makes the decisions concerning HIS body, and you do whatever you want with YOUR body".

I really like this answer.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4chunut1* 
Sadly, you are SO right... It SHOULD be the males/fathers taking the lead on this issue, especially the circumcised men. THEY should be insisting that their sons have the choice about their bodies, a choice that was denied them... IF enough men took the lead on this, circumcision would quickly become a relic of the past.

Just for the record, my (circumcised) dh was as vocal about leaving our son intact as I was!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

double-post.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
Just for the record, my (circumcised) dh was as vocal about leaving our son intact as I was!

I think for many men it comes down to reason vs emotion. Reason beat emotion for your DH (unless there is an unusual emotional dynamic for him that made him have an opposite reaction from most circ'd men.)

For moms it's easier to get reason and emotion on the same side. Since there is no need to justify what happened to themselves, there is no need to validate their own status as good, etc moms can just go with not wanting to harm their baby as the primary emotion involved. Of course reason will agree with that emotion.

Of course there are some women who are pro-circ, I suspect those emotions come from a need to defend past participation in circumcision. Also anyone can fall prey to faulty reason.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster*
Men are quite welcome. In reality, this is a male issue. It's just that us mommies get a lot of say in this issue (though we really shouldn't, it should be something men get to choose for themselves as adults) and the duty/need to protect our male youngsters tends to fall on our shoulders.

Although I definitely agree on the welcoming front, I have to disagree about circumcision being a male issue. I think it's a human rights issue. I don't have to be gay to support marriage equality, I don't have to be a person of color to oppose racism, etc. Bodily integrity is a human rights issue, and I think women have just as much stake in advocating for genital integrity for all genders as men do.

Yes, it's individual males who suffer the primary impacts of circumcision, but as the wife of a circumcised man, the mother of an intact son and two intact daughters whom I hope will be able to find intact partners, and because of some extremely painful history in my extended family that I don't want to get into, circumcision and intactivism have affected my life profoundly. As a believer in the universality of human rights, I think I have just as much grounds to advocate for genital integrity as any man, whole or circumcised.

I also think that circumcision is a women's issue in that as A&A's siggie says or used to say, circumcision is violence against that primal bond between mother and baby. It certainly affects breastfeeding and I wouldn't be surprised if it affects bonding although of course that's impossible to demonstrate scientifically. I think it's used as a power/control issue against women all too frequently, forcing them to deny their protective instincts and accede to their male partners' demands to hand their newborns over for genital wounding.

I know that we're all on the same page about circumcision, and I welcome any and all people to the struggle, but I don't like the argument that it's a man's issue (and of course the flip side of that argument is that men have the penises, so they should be the deciders).

Peace out.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
If he's saying he'll leave the boy intact if you birth in a hospital, then he's also saying that circ isn't that important to him. What's important to him is being in control.

I know this just got quoted many times. But I had to quote it, too.

I don't think you should be saying the circ issue got you to counseling and the divorce word. Something else is going on. It sounds like he doesn't feel a need to protect your body or his son's body.








I'm so sorry you're going through this, mama.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
As a believer in the universality of human rights, I think I have just as much grounds to advocate for genital integrity as any man, whole or circumcised.

Very well explained Quirky. I agree. As a wife to an intact man and a mom to intact sons I have to say that I don't have any personal experience with circumcision. I've only ever been with my husband. It doesn't stop me from being outraged at the human rights violations that go on everyday.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4chunut1* 
Sadly, you are SO right... It SHOULD be the males/fathers taking the lead on this issue, especially the circumcised men. THEY should be insisting that their sons have the choice about their bodies, a choice that was denied them... IF enough men took the lead on this, circumcision would quickly become a relic of the past.

You are absolutely correct, and it amazes me that more circ'd Dads can't look at this issue with enough common sense and objectivity (is that a word?) to realise how asinine the notion to amputate your son's foreskin is.


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## JB1972 (Mar 17, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcstar* 
It's an awfully personal question to ask a guy, but do you know any intact men who could talk your husband around?

DH wanted circumcision for our son. We talked and waited, talked and waited, but I think the nail in the coffin was when I had one of my brothers talk to DH over the phone. My brothers are intact, and this one was able to convince DH that it wasn't a big deal to be uncirced.

Apparently most men DON'T look when they're using the restroom.

I think she really hit on a great idea here: as an uncut man myself, I have a feeling that there are few uncircumcised men who are unhappy that their bodies were left completely intact. Find some who would answer any of his concerns with personal anecdotes, it may well defuse some of his concerns. I know that a lot of us have some strong feelings (positive) about the fact that we were not circumcised as babies.
On the "quid pro quo", I know everyone else said this already but I have to say I completely agree that the "deal" sounds really LAME! I'm going to be nice and give the guy a bit more credit than some have; perhaps he just had one of those moments that we all do where the mouth functions before the brain does? Sounds like a very "foot in mouth" kind of moment... if not he must be pretty uncaring of your pain and suffering to try to dictate how you would give birth.
I was a home birth, and witnessed my four siblings home births, and therefore I've come to be a firm believer in the benefits of a more "natural" style home birth. That said, *if* my wife were to wish a hospital birth, a C-section, birth while skydiving, or WHATEVER she felt most comfortable and relaxed about I would support that decision 100%! I cannot imagine something that stressful or challenging, so I have trouble seeing how anyone could feel that they would have the rights to push a woman into a birth process that she has indicated she's not comfortable with. If he has some sort power issues, and this is a "save face" kind of move; then surely a better (harmless) trade could be worked out.
good luck, and good for you for being such a protector of your unborn future son!
JB


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Do the hospital birth. Find a good hospital. I've had two wonderful, lovely hospital births, with zero regrets, and honestly can't think of a thing that I'd change about either of them. Wait. Thats not true. If I could go back I'd demand to be let get into the tub *WAY* sooner with DS1 (I did not have a water birth either time, but wasn't allowed in the tub till 6am w/ DS1 after 12 hours of labor, ds was born ~9. With DS2 I got in a tub ~ 9:30pm and DS2 was born at 10:50pm 20 mins after getting out... my doula said 'well! we know what works for you em, don't we! WATER!!







)


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

re Birthing: you are the birthing mother. YOUR body, YOUR choice how and where.
circumcision: your son's body, your son's choice if he ever wants to get cut when he is older. (most guys don't! but a few do.)

Your poor husband just desperately needs to validate his own circumcision by cutting his son. He's gonna have to face his own issues if the conflict is ever going to go away.
Best of luck to both of you.

Jen


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
Do the hospital birth. Find a good hospital. I've had two wonderful, lovely hospital births, with zero regrets, and honestly can't think of a thing that I'd change about either of them. Wait. Thats not true. If I could go back I'd demand to be let get into the tub *WAY* sooner with DS1 (I did not have a water birth either time, but wasn't allowed in the tub till 6am w/ DS1 after 12 hours of labor, ds was born ~9. With DS2 I got in a tub ~ 9:30pm and DS2 was born at 10:50pm 20 mins after getting out... my doula said 'well! we know what works for you em, don't we! WATER!!







)

That's great that you had positive hospital births. Women should birth where they feel the most comfortable. I have had a positive hospital birth myself. I had my next child at home. I felt much better at home. I would choose home again. You yourself said that you weren't allowed to get in the tub before a certain point. At home the mother is in charge and doesn't have to conform to hospital policy.

The OP does not feel most comfortable in a hospital birth. Therefore, why should she sacrifice her comfort in labor to an ultimatum when her dh doesn't even feel that strongly about circ. He is just doing this as a power struggle.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle* 
The OP does not feel most comfortable in a hospital birth. Therefore, why should she sacrifice her comfort in labor to an ultimatum when her dh doesn't even feel that strongly about circ. He is just doing this as a power struggle.

I disagree with the sentiment that husband does not feel so strongly about circ, that it is just a control issue. I believe it is ALL about the circ, his need to cut his son so he can feel good about himself and his circ status. I don't think he is at all interested in forcing his wife into a hospital birth that she does not want. I think that, knowing she does not want a hospital birth after her trauma last time, he believes she will choose home birth and circumcision; then he gets his way AND he gets out of being the "bad guy" because it was "her decision." I would bet a million dollars if she went for the hospital birth "compromise" he would find a way to get the boy circumcised ANYWAY.

Stick to your guns, OP!! Your body, YOUR birthing choices. Your son's body, HIS cosmetic surgery choices.

And don't fall for the old "but you get to make all the decisions..." line. That's just another way insecure circumcised men try to bully and guilt their wives into circumcising their sons. Hey, if taking part in parenting decisions were so important they wouldn't leave all of them up to their wife in the first place.

It is *all* about their own issues over circumcision.

"Issues?? I don't have any issues!! ...I just really really REALLY need to cut off part of my son's genitals! Now just let me cut him and leave me alone!"

No, no issues at all, huh?

Best to you!

Jen


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## Grace and Granola (Oct 15, 2005)

I would agree to the compromise right now, just to put this to rest. It's not even an issue since you're not TTC and it seems like you could use a little peace in your marriage right now. If you can accept this compromise it might, in his mind, put him back on a level playing field to where neither of you feel completely defeated. Then you can work on getting your marriage back on track. If that can happen, maybe he'll be in a better place to talk about these issues. But I would not let hypothetical scenarios destroy my marriage.


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## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

I think the DH *may* be treated too harshly.

Maybe he is afraid of a homebirth because he may believe his wife and child are safer in a hospital (it may be misguided, but it may be his belief).

He may genuinely worry about a son being teased. The pain we feel in adolescence is very marking, and he may have rolled that up in the need to protect a potential child - again, misguided, but it may come from a place of fear/love, not from a bullying need to control.

I have had my share of ups and downs in my relationship, and the thing I'm learning is that connection is everyting. To remember we're on the same team, even if we have different views.

Maybe the real conversation should be, what kind of home birth would make your DH feel comfortable? Or, is there any way to make a hospital birth work for you?


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## TheGorge (Mar 21, 2010)

If I *had* to make that choice, it would be an easy one - no circumcision. Circumcision is something irreversible, and it's not about my body, so how could I do what I know isn't right to somebody so close to me?

Maybe he just really doesn't want you to have a home birth, since it seems like he's more afraid of that than his son staying intact. What are his reasons?

As far as girls teasing the boy - when he's older he can get circumcised himself if that's a problem. Not a big deal if he decides to do it, but at least he'd have a choice.

Maybe try to negotiate a compromise on something else?


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

I would not do a hospital birth.Easier to have the boy circed while mum is lying in a bed down the hall. If he can not come to terms with a child having normal genitals then seperation is really the best option.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

If you haven't already ready the essay The Vulnerability of Men, I suggest you read it. I found it really enlightening about this issue. The gist of the piece is that a circumcised man will often take a woman's desire to leave her son's penis intact to mean that she is unhappy with his own cut penis. Convincing you to circumcise your son is really about convincing you that his own penis is acceptable. I also agree with those who said your husband is probably offering the hospital birth "compromise" out of desperation because he thinks you will choose the home birth and therefore "choose" circumcision.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mllssa333* 
ok, at the risk of everyone attacking me...there is research that states a possible 60% less likely chance of getting HIV for men who have be cut. That research pushed us into getting it done on our twins. I didn't want to do it, I felt guilty. But I held my brother's hand while he died of AIDS and I would do anything to lower my kids chances of infection. I know, if I teach them good values and morals,etc.etc..etc... But the fact is they might not always be respondsible, they might screw up once or twice in college. My brother was valedictorian and graudated college at the top of his class. He was the "good" kid with the "good" values. I know we never want to think about our boys growing up, or being anything but perfect. But if multiple studies suggest that it could lower the chance of infection by 60% for a one time exposure...it is worth it to me. But it is a personal choice that every family has to make themselves.

That doesn't change your sons risk as much as you think. What press releases and even the study authors, doctors, and other groups fail to point out is that this (if it's accurate) is a relative risk reduction. Since the risk of HIV infection for a heterosexual male who is not an IV drug user is extremely low, a risk reduction as you describe would be very small. In his lifetime, your son (if he is a heterosexual non-iv drug user in a first world country) has a lifetime HIV risk of in the neighborhood of 0.02% or so. He has a slightly less chance of dying in a commercial airline crash. Therefore the change in risk is on the order of hundredths of a percent.

I find it sad that your son was circumcised because of such a trivial issue; I don't blame you though I do blame the media for up selling this information without the proper context to help people understand it.

ETA: and there is no data to suggest any benefit to homosexuals or IV drug users.


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## moxygirl (Jun 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *billikengirl* 
A wise MDC poster once said that "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."

This.

I have not read all the posts so forgive me if I'm a little behind the discussion. My husband insisted a son would be circ'd even AFTER he did all the research. No real reason. He just wanted it done. I said "over my dead body." Obviously we didn't have it done. For me it's a non-issue. As in, it's NOT going to be done so don't talk to me about it. I wouldn't allow someone to abuse my son, or cut off one of his other body parts. IMO, circ'ing is the same thing.

I understand that others don't feel that way. Fine, I'm not their conscience. But I am the mother of my son and will protect him from what I feel is unnecessary genital mutilation.


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## seraf (Feb 1, 2002)

arianascrunchymama said:


> He threw out this ultimatum that has my mind reeling: *"You always get your way, so how about we compromise: if we can have a hospital birth, we can leave any sons intact."*
> QUOTE]
> 
> Perhaps you could say, you're right, I always get my way, lets compromise: I will pump out one bottle every day and *you can choose* which feeding between 12 and 6 am you want to offer that bottle.
> ...


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## Mirrormonkey (Jan 6, 2009)

I would have a hospital birth to save my sons foreskin... Totally unfair of him to make that demand but if that is the breaking point, then I would just do it. My son's penis is around far longer than the time spent in hospital. Good Luck!


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
It is *all* about their own issues over circumcision.

"Issues?? I don't have any issues!! ...I just really really REALLY need to cut off part of my son's genitals! Now just let me cut him and leave me alone!"

No, no issues at all, huh?

Word.


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