# Black cohosh & castor oil?



## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Hi, I'm new, sorry if I don't do this right. I'm really hoping for an unmedicated birth but for several reasons I need it to happen soon, which has led me to try some natural induction methods. I'm 38 weeks; the baby is estimated to be roughly 7 lbs at this point (which is a pretty good size for me since I'm tiny). After a few days of inserting evening primrose oil at night I was 50% effaced last Wednesday. The baby's head is at 0 station already but I was only dilated to 1 cm. since then I've been taking the evening primrose oil orally and inserting it as well as black cohosh since Thursday.

My question: Has anyone used castor oil and/or coffee leaves (in a tea form) to increase the intensity of the contractions? I get very strong tightening in the abdomen whenever I move around, walk, etc. but no matter what I do (I've tried nipple stimulation, etc.) it doesn't last when I sit or lay down. I actually thought I was in labor last night because they were so regular but they petered out when I rested. I'm thinking of trying castor oil tomorrow afternoon, after a good long walk, but I'm not sure how it would interact (if at all) with the black cohosh. The cohosh was prescribed by a doula so I know that I am taking a safe amount. What is the best way to use castor oil, how much/how often, etc?

Sorry to be so long, just wanted to give the whole picture. Any thoughts or advice would be really appreciated...I really want to avoid a medical induction and have got to get this baby out...no way can I have the birth experience I want for me and my son if I'm hooked up to pitocin and all the subsequent interventions. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Medusa (Mar 25, 2004)

I tried castor oil at 42 weeks and it did NOTHING but give me the worst tasting belches EVER (I still shutter remembering them) It did make me crap a bit, but nothing horrid and nothing that brought on labor.

I'd say keeping walking, walk and walk and walk. If that's what seems to be helping keep it up.

Castor oil might make that hard though, as most of the walking your likely end up doing is to the toilet and back.

38 weeks is still rather early to be rushing labor, can you give us any idea as to why you need to be in such a hurry?

I seriously hate that women feel pressured to manipulate their bodies/births like this.

Good luck Mama


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

One reason is my size...the doc said 7 lbs is about as big as he needs to get for me to have a decent vaginal birth (I'm barely 5 feet and about 95 lbs before pregnancy) and he is already at that size or VERY close to it. The practice is sort of induction-happy...they are inducing an acquaintance of mine 10 days before her due date just for convenience...whose convenience, I'm not sure.

Another issue is the pain that I'm in from previous injury. I've been in constant, progressively worse, pain since about 20 weeks and it's to the point where there is basically no comfortable position for me except MAYBE sitting on my birthing ball. I guess that's kind of got me worn down at this point.

A third issue (which I know may upset some) is my financial situation and the fact that I can't work anymore because of the pain I'm in, but can't get paid maternity leave until the baby is actually born. Any time I take off before that is unpaid AND potentially deducted from my postpartum leave (whish is only 6 weeks). I'm not currently covered under FMLA. Can you imagine leaving a baby that young to go back to work? it breaks my heart. Unfortunately, being a single parent, this is my only source of income, so I have no choice. I'm doing my best to wait it out and give him every opportunity to "bake" a while longer, but come Monday, every day he's not born is one day less that I get to spend with him. And by my next appt this Wednesday, they'll be talking medical induction with pitocin, something I'd REALLY like to avoid. I want as natural and intervention-free an experience as possible.

Hope that helps clarify a little.


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## Medusa (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
One reason is my size...the doc said 7 lbs is about as big as he needs to get for me to have a decent vaginal birth (I'm barely 5 feet and about 95 lbs before pregnancy) and he is already at that size or VERY close to it. The practice is sort of induction-happy...they are inducing an acquaintance of mine 10 days before her due date just for convenience...whose convenience, I'm not sure.

Another issue is the pain that I'm in from previous injury. I've been in constant, progressively worse, pain since about 20 weeks and it's to the point where there is basically no comfortable position for me except MAYBE sitting on my birthing ball. I guess that's kind of got me worn down at this point.

A third issue (which I know may upset some) is my financial situation and the fact that I can't work anymore because of the pain I'm in, but can't get paid maternity leave until the baby is actually born. Any time I take off before that is unpaid AND potentially deducted from my postpartum leave (whish is only 6 weeks). I'm not currently covered under FMLA. Can you imagine leaving a baby that young to go back to work? it breaks my heart. Unfortunately, being a single parent, this is my only source of income, so I have no choice. I'm doing my best to wait it out and give him every opportunity to "bake" a while longer, but come Monday, every day he's not born is one day less that I get to spend with him. And by my next appt this Wednesday, they'll be talking medical induction with pitocin, something I'd REALLY like to avoid. I want as natural and intervention-free an experience as possible.

Hope that helps clarify a little.

It does.








s I'm a single mama from day one as well so I totally get the financial issues.

Your Doc's take on size and weight is irksome at best! the internal measurements of your pelvis are what matter, not your height and weight not to mention that those prebirth weight/size estimates are often completely inaccurate








:

Honestly I think the best advice I got on bringing on labor (I went 42 weeks 6 days) was to try to find an internal space where I was happy/relaxed and welcoming labor rather than trying to force it, KWIM?

I promise it isn't just some hippiedippie BS, but the stress and fear you have right now are sending chemical messages to your baby and your body that it's not safe yet.

I personally recommend warm baths, meditation and teas that relax you rather than things that add to the stress you body is already feeling.

I also think you might find more help and wisdom if you post a link to this thread in the Birth Professionals Area. There are some truly amazing, caring women over there.


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

Well, it sounds like you are definitely in a tough position.

1) Baby's size. Ignore this. Ultrasound estimates of a baby's size at this stage of the game are often off by 1 or more pounds. Plus, it doesn't matter how small you are. That has nothing to do with your ability to birth a baby. Baby's size should not be a worry at all. Your body knows how to grow a baby, and it knows how to birth it. OBs are used to seeing medicated, managed births where women try to push their babies out with an epidural while lying on their backs. It is THIS that makes getting the baby out difficult -- not the size of the baby or the mama. But they mistakenly believe it's the latter. Post a new thread with a title along the lines of "looking for small mamas who had big babies," and I bet you'll get a gazillion stories of women your size who handled babies much larger than 7 pounds with no problems at all.

Your second and third issues are a lot trickier. I think you need to weigh the possible complications of trying to make this baby come before it's ready against the things you're looking at now. I understand wanting to spend every minute with your baby before going back to work (and it is indeed heartbreaking to have to go back to work after 6 weeks, or less). And I also understand being tight financially. But trying to make your baby come before he's ready can have serious consequences for him AND you. The risk of c-section goes up dramatically when you're induced (_especially_ when induced so early), and a c/s will greatly slow your recovery and return to work, plus make your first weeks with your baby extremely difficult, especially if you're a single parent. I know you're looking at natural methods of induction right now, but frankly, I think these usually do not work unless your body is very close to being ready. Based on your user name, I'm guessing you're a first time mama, and it's pretty unusual for first time mamas and their babies to be ready at 38 weeks. I think what you are most likely to do at this point is exhaust yourself and your baby trying to get labor started when your body and your baby simply aren't ready.

As simple as it sounds, I didn't realize when I had dd that babies are sentient, conscious, emotional beings, and they are affected by their in utero and birth experiences. Forcing a baby to be born before it is ready is detrimental to the baby, physically and emotionally. Inductions (pitocin) are very difficult for the baby, and make the birth extremely hard to endure. The likelihood of birth trauma is much higher, and it may not even be a trauma you're aware of. It could simply be the trauma of being born before ready. This greatly increases the risk of things like "colic" and having a baby who is difficult to console. This will also make the little time you have with your baby before returning to work much more difficult, and may make daycare extremely difficult (it is hard to find providers who truly meet the needs of a high needs baby).

You can absolutely refuse to be induced by your OB. They cannot make you do it. I would ask your OB for information on the accuracy of ultrasound weight estimates, as that might take the pressure off a little. But you can refuse no matter what they say. As long as you and the baby are healthy, there is no reason the pregnancy can't continue.

I was also in debilitating pain towards the end with dd (I had a lumbar fusion many years ago, and still have lots of back trouble). I couldn't walk more than 20 or 30 feet without having to sit down from pain. I had to go on disability a month before she was born, although I was thankfully paid during that time. I would recommend such things as chiropractic, massage and/or craniosacral therapy, but I'm guessing they aren't in the budget. You are going to have to make the call on this one, as only you know what you are able to endure. I did find my pain greatly improved once I was off work and I was able to rest (and wasn't stressed out), so perhaps that will happen for you too -- maybe even enough to allow you to return to work.

You are in a very difficult position, and I hope you don't feel like I'm downplaying the things you're facing, because I'm not. But I do feel that it's wise to consider the _negatives_ of trying to hurry this birth along, and try to decide what is truly best for you and your baby at this point. At first glance, the reasons you give are compelling (getting to spend more time with baby, etc.), but upon deeper thought, you may decide that isn't the case. Our birth experiences mark us for life (trust me, I have revisited mine numerous times during craniosacral therapy sessions!), and should not be underestimated. Good luck







.


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## leewd (Aug 14, 2005)

Have you heard of parsley tea? My midwife suggested it last time when I was having contractions when a hurricane came through (barometric pressure drop), and I wanted them to keep going so I could have the baby. It didn't work for me, but I think I was only 37 weeks.

Recipe (if I'm remembering correctly):
Buy 2 bunches of fresh parsley.
Boil in 64 oz of water (70 oz might be better to allow for boil off)
Turn off fire, and let steep for at least 20 minutes (the longer the better)
Drain and drink 4 oz per hour (or per half hour?)

I found it to be about the worst thing I'd ever tasted, so what I did was to drain the whole batch after letting it steep/cool for 60 minutes. Then I mixed it with a can of frozen orange juice concentrate. I could then drink it down really fast.

Women trying to induce very early miscarriages also use this because it causes expulsive contractions.

*BUT I do not know if you can use this with the cohosh!!!*

Good Luck and







.
--LEE


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## 1stimestar (Jan 15, 2005)

Doulas do not prescribe. If yours does, then I would run as fast as I could away from anything she says.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
One reason is my size...the doc said 7 lbs is about as big as he needs to get for me to have a decent vaginal birth (I'm barely 5 feet and about 95 lbs before pregnancy) and he is already at that size or VERY close to it. The practice is sort of induction-happy...they are inducing an acquaintance of mine 10 days before her due date just for convenience...whose convenience, I'm not sure.

Another issue is the pain that I'm in from previous injury. I've been in constant, progressively worse, pain since about 20 weeks and it's to the point where there is basically no comfortable position for me except MAYBE sitting on my birthing ball. I guess that's kind of got me worn down at this point.

A third issue (which I know may upset some) is my financial situation and the fact that I can't work anymore because of the pain I'm in, but can't get paid maternity leave until the baby is actually born. Any time I take off before that is unpaid AND potentially deducted from my postpartum leave (whish is only 6 weeks). I'm not currently covered under FMLA. Can you imagine leaving a baby that young to go back to work? it breaks my heart. Unfortunately, being a single parent, this is my only source of income, so I have no choice. I'm doing my best to wait it out and give him every opportunity to "bake" a while longer, but come Monday, every day he's not born is one day less that I get to spend with him. And by my next appt this Wednesday, they'll be talking medical induction with pitocin, something I'd REALLY like to avoid. I want as natural and intervention-free an experience as possible.

Hope that helps clarify a little.

I wouldn't even worry about the size. First, weight estimation in utero isn't very precise and can be off by a few lbs even. Secondly, I'm only 4'9" and 93 lbs pre-pregnancy but my son came out a healthy 7 lbs 9 oz with no complications.








And to answer your question, my son was 2 weeks "late" so I tried self induction with castor oil and all it did was give me horrible diarrhea.


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## balancedmama (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1stimestar* 
Doulas do not prescribe. If yours does, then I would run as fast as I could away from anything she says.









:








s mama, I am sorry you are faced with all of this right now. I agree with the PPs though that the energy you are sending your baby needs to be welcoming. The size thing is a bunch of bunk so please try to let go of that. The other issues I do not have many answers for except that if your baby is not ready to be born, forcing him out may lead to complications that make going back to work early even harder.


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## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

I personally would not recommend castor oil. I took it with DD at 42 weeks I think. What it did was go right through me and give me horrible horrible diarrhea. I had a lovely 24 hours in the bathroom and my butt hurt for another day after that. I was thankful it did not put me into labor because laboring with that going on would have been awful.


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## zjande (Nov 4, 2002)

I just want to share my experience real quick. I was so uncomfortable & impatient that I took a dose of castor oil in OJ, and took the black & blue cohoshes in water every 30 mins for a handful of hours. I was 3 days past my due date. They did send me into hard labor, that's for sure! But, my labor was only 90 minutes (a crazy-fast-intense 90 minutes!), there was meconium in the water & I hemorrhaged afterward (I barely made it to the hospital where I had a midwife assisted birth). I hadn't experienced any of those things with my other births. It was all a bit scary. Everything ended up fine in the end, but I definitely won't mess with nature again this time (I'm 37 weeks tomorrow & uncomfortable & impatient again). I just don't want to risk the scary intensity, the baby breathing meconium, OR the scary hemorrhage again. I can't prove that any of those things were caused directly by the oil & cohoshes, but my midwife did say she never recommends them due to the link to mec in water & hemorrhage with them both.







I obviously didn't consult her first.

You're in a tricky situation & I'm sorry things are so complex (not to mention painful!) for you now.







I personally think it would be best for your baby not to be forced out too early (& ditto what the other folks said about size- ignore that advice, you CAN birth a big baby naturally), but I know you're in a challenging place. Good luck with everything!


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

i too tried castor oil (with my second). i was 42+ weeks and getting tired and sore and my midwives would only go to 43 weeks for a home birth so i was feeling the pressure of needing to get baby out!.. i did it the first time with just castor oil (mixed in ice cream..SO nasty) and it didn't do much good. i sat on the toilet and cried mostly .. the second time i used lemon verbena oil with castor oil in ice cream and that did the trick. im sure it was the lemon verbena oil that actually started my uterus to contract. within a few hours i was in hard labor and dd was born 4 hours after contractions started. im not sure if i would do it again..even if i went to 42+ weeks again.. i guess ill see.. but i really wouldn't recomend it..


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## wumanh (Apr 30, 2005)

I would ignore the comment about the size of the baby. Size does not indicate readiness to be born.
I really hate for force labor before its time.
Have you talked to the baby and explained what's going on? Ask it if it is ready to come now so you can have more time together. They really do participate in their own births!
It seems like you will be going into birth day labor really soon.
Is there any way your caregiver can give you some sort of medical note so you can get more time off?
I know that constant pain can really wear you down. Have you looked into things like acupuncture or chiropractic or bowen technique? St. John's Wort oil is great for nerve pain.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

thanks everyone for our responses. There was some really helpful information in them. I went back to the doc yesterday and there was no change...still at 50%/1cm/0station. She did however give me a note that will qualify me for medical leave so a little of the stress is off regarding my job. I've decided to make the best of it...I rescheduled all my appts to take place this week (to keep busy AND save time not hauling a newborn everywhere) and have decided to just accept that the time wasn't right this weekend. There IS a reason even if I can't see it.

Maybe in a few days I will try again with the evening primrose and other supplements but for the time being I'm just going to try and enjoy this gift of free time. For some reason I'm just not feeling in a hurry right now and that feels GREAT. My back is even feeling a little better today. So, thank you all for your encouraging words. I will try and post again to let you know what happens either way.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

Please remember that effacement/dilation/station mean *absolutely nothing* in terms of when you'll go into labor. You can walk around 5-6 cm dilated for weeks, or go from zero dilation to baby in 12 hours. Cervical exams in late pregnancy give no helpful information and can be a source of infection. Sometimes healthcare providers will even strip a woman's membranes without her consent, which can be painful, non-productive, and carries the risk of introducing infection and accidentally (or not-so-accidentally) breaking your water.

There is only one situation I can think of where cervical exams give useful information in late pregnancy, and that's if an induction is warranted for a medical reason. In that case, it would be helpful to know what your Bishop's Score is (you can google that term for more info) in order to know if you're favorable for induction or not. If you don't have a favorable Bishop's score and you're a first-time mom, your chance of c-section with an induction is 50%.

Because your OBs sound very medically-minded (i.e., "active management of labor" types) and you mentioned they're induction-happy, I would stay away from the hospital as long as possible once you do go into labor. If you go in early, there's a good chance you'll be talked into a lot of interventions that you've said you don't want. Many people suggested to me that I "wait until I felt like I couldn't take it anymore" before going in, and it wasn't bad advice. I had regular contractions 2-3 minutes apart from the very first contraction, but labor was still 21 hours long. So if I'd gone in right away, with a typical OB I would most likely have been strongly encouraged to get pitocin at some point. Instead I showed up ready to push, and there was no time or reason to discuss anything.









I honestly do think that your stress level can impact when you go into labor. I remember sitting down just before 38 weeks and talking to my baby, telling her we were ready for her - not to rush, but we were ready for her whenever she was ready, and I even suggested a couple of dates to her. After that, I felt so at peace. I was enjoying my last weeks of pregnancy, despite the pain I was in (from symphysis pubis dysfunction) and felt a deep sense of calm. Baby came on the date I had suggested, at 38w3d. So I think finding your own sense of calm and peace and letting a lot of the stress go can be helpful. But, your baby might also not be ready quite yet, and that's okay too.

The size issue has been addressed, but I just want to chime in and say that I also think that is really not something that you should be concerned about. There is no way to know whether your baby can fit or not until you've had a trial of labor. True cephalopelvic disproportion (CPD), where the baby cannot fit through the pelvis, is extremely rare. Also, ultrasound in late pregnancy can be off by up to two pounds either way, so feeling pressure because your baby is at 7 lbs is really not sensible since the weight estimate is just an estimate.

Also, the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) does not recommend induction for suspected big baby. Your doctors aren't following the ACOG's guidelines if they're recommending an induction because your baby might be large. And the ACOG guidelines also define "big baby" as much larger than seven pounds. Being short and slender has nothing to do with what your pelvis will do when you give birth. The bones are looser since the ligaments etc. are more flexible due to pregnancy hormones and able to move. This is one reason why you can't diagnose CPD without a trial of labor - you don't know what the mother's body will do until it's given a chance to do it!

Good luck to you and I'm glad to hear you're feeling better now. Remember that you don't have to agree to an induction - you're the patient; it's your choice.







Happy birthing vibes to you, too.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

You shouldn't take cohash without advice from an herbalist. Like medicine many herbs are quite strong and can have side effects. Cohash can increase your chance of hemorrhage. I wouldn't recommend it without dosage information from someone who is aware of your medical history and experienced with herbs.


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## Shanana (May 11, 2005)

I am glad to hear you got the medical leave, and the job stress has been lifted







.

I wanted to mention that I saw my midwife today, and she told me about a previous client who weighed right around 100 lb before she got pregnant, and she delivered a _10.5 lb baby vaginally_. It can be done! It was hard work, and she did tear, but she birthed her baby vaginally. And 10.5 lb is _big_. It's pretty rare for a baby to be that big, so it's likely your baby will be smaller. And just to give an indication of how wrong u/s can be at this stage, she had an u/s 2 days before she gave birth, and they estimated the baby's size to be _7.5 lb_. They were off by THREE POUNDS.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiting2bemommy* 
For some reason I'm just not feeling in a hurry right now and that feels GREAT. My back is even feeling a little better today.

Listen to your gut mama! Relax and take your time. I'm glad to hear your pain is better too. I know stress made mine worse, so hopefully being off work and able to take it easy will help you too. Take care of yourself, and do please keep us posted







.


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