# mamas who don't shave~ what will you tell your dd and will you/do you allow shaving?



## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

*****DISCLAIMER*****
I do not shave my legs or my armpits and this thread is not intended to be a debate about shaving(It's crazy that I have to say that, lol). I am actually anti-shaving and this is really a support only thread for people who do not shave, not for people who do and want to chime in about how they do and they love it and yadda yadda yadda.
FTR I am friends with a lot of shavers and while they know my position I would never impose my beliefs on them or shame them for shaving and this post is not intended to make anyone feel bad, but for the sake of my question I wanted to be clear about my feelings and beliefs on this subject

So.

I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls. I am a woman, I have hair, embrace it!
I actually think hair is sexy, I love my husbands beard and musky scent, he is in no way a metro-man and I wouldn't have it any other way!
And he feels the same way for me! I have never actually had anyone complain that I didn't wax my pubic hair off or shave my legs(and because I don't the hair is soft and fine) or my underarms and I have been this way most of my life, excluding some time in my late teens and early twenties although even then it was spotty sometimes I did sometimes not.
So what I'm wondering is how I will aproach this with my dd. I know that TV and media in general support shaving, promote shaving and advertise shaving products like mad. We are not TV free.
I want to instill in her the idea that she is already created perfectly by God in his image. That she doesn't have to conform to society's gender roles like 'smooth big breasted sexy kitten girl' and what not.
But I don't want to alienate her if she is interested in shaving, either.

Do I need to just go TV free and really sensor her media? I am pretty anit-sensorship, but I don't want to program her with ideas I don't agree with just for the sake of not sensoring, y'know?

Sorry this is scattered.
TIA for any responses, I know a lot of people do shave and I will be surprised if anyone actually does respond to this wierd post, lol!!!!!


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## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

*I* do shave, but every time my stepdaughter has asked a question about it, I have always told her that it is something that some women do, but it is your body and your choice once you are older. Just like anything else people do to their bodies (piercing, tatoos, make-up, hairstyles) I don't want her to think that it is something that she has to do.

I'm not sure how you would go about outright forbidding it - it might become quite the power struggle when she is a teen if all of her friends do shave. It is probably the sort of thing that you would want to start talking to her about at a young age.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't shave, and I think shaving is silly and yes infantalizing and uncomfortable. I will probably tell my daughter that if/when she asks, but what she does with her own body is her choice.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't shave, and I think shaving is silly and yes infantalizing and uncomfortable. I will probably tell my daughter that if/when she asks, but what she does with her own body is her choice.

I agree that what she does with her own body is her choice. I really just want her to understand why other people do it and the history behind it so that she doesn't just assume that it is 'what you do' like a lot of people I know do. I also don't want her to feel gross about her mommy not doing it, but living in this society it is just not accepted by mainstream folks.
I went to a movie with my teenage brother this weekend, the movie was Year 1, and in the movie one of the cavewomen lifted her arm and she had armpit hair, nothing crazy, just a normal unshaved armpit(although it did look like instead of growing her own they had glued some on) but the whole crowd in the theater groaned. That is the kind of stuff I want to circumvent.

I agree with both of your comments, though, and thanks for answering!


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I wont refuse or encourage it. once she is old enough. I do shave because it HURTS my skin not too I hate the feeling once hair grows long enough (I get really lazy about it) so for me I shave because I want to not because someone is telling me I need to. If my DD feels more comfortable not she can live with any "conquences" that may have (same with the reverse). If shes asks if and why I do I'll give honest answers.

Deanna


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I agree that what she does with her own body is her choice. I really just want her to understand why other people do it and the history behind it so that she doesn't just assume that it is 'what you do' like a lot of people I know do. I also don't want her to feel gross about her mommy not doing it, but living in this society it is just not accepted by mainstream folks.
I went to a movie with my teenage brother this weekend, the movie was Year 1, and in the movie one of the cavewomen lifted her arm and she had armpit hair, nothing crazy, just a normal unshaved armpit(although it did look like instead of growing her own they had glued some on) but the whole crowd in the theater groaned. That is the kind of stuff I want to circumvent.

I agree with both of your comments, though, and thanks for answering!

I think all you can do, which you are talking about also, is just share your own perspective, why you don't do it, what you think about it. That is what I plan to do in a bunch of areas where we differ from the mainstream. And her social situation will be different, and therefore so will her choices. Your information will help her be informed and critical thinking about those choices, so even if she does what most people do, it will not be without thought or critique. Which IMO is the most important thing.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

i don't shave and i have wondered about these things...and what i emphasize when talking to other people about why i don't shave is that - our society puts ALOT of pressure on women to appear as very young girls - with tiny noses, no body hair, etc. this is the 'ideal' for women's appearance and the underlying concept is that men prefer young girls to mature women?

anyway, i think it is messed up, and while many women shave because they like it, is is more comfortable, etc, i don't shave because i do not want to perpetuate these "beauty myths". and while i don't really care if anyone else shaves or not (obviously not my business...) i do think that when women shave they are collectively perpetuating this "myth".

and...how much money are these people who sell shaving products making? TONS.

that is where i am coming from and my dd will know that. i would not forbid her to shave...obviously, but i don't know how much money i will be willing to spend on shaving products. and i hope that she has a different image and perspective around beauty and what that means for her.


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## Ambystoma (Mar 26, 2009)

I don't shave my legs, but I do shave my underarms at the moment. I wish I didn't and now at the prospect of having a little girl in a few months, I am seriously considering letting it grow out like I planned to when I have children. Thanks for reminding me.

I think it's important that you have men in your life understand that they aren't to make negative comments to your DD about it. When I was 12, my dad looked over at my legs (which had never been shaved) and said, "god, when's the last time you shaved your legs" and I cried and my mom initiated the shaving ritual which I did for 4 years before calling B.S. (I also started shaving my armpits for a similar reason with another family member who was "disgusted" by the 4 wisps of hair growing under there when I was 10.

I am lucky in part because DH's sister (who will be our children's only aunt, and I'm sure the "cool aunt") doesn't shave at all, so there will be more than 1 female role model for any child we have.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I shaved mych younger than my parents would have liked. Actually I think they would have prefered I didn't. I was in the 7th grade when I started I would sneek in disposable razors and dry shave to get relief.. Yea I was weird.. I fear DD is too but in which dirrection I don't know.

Deanna


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## uncertain (Mar 13, 2006)

I haven't shaved in many years, mostly because I just can't be bothered, it takes way too much time. And because I just get so grossed out thinking of all those tiny cuts and all the potential routes into my body for infections! I plan to approach this with DD the same as the way I tell DS that he can wear whatever clothes he wants to (even, gasp! pink), that everyone has a right to be comfortable in their own skin and with their own choices, and that anyone who says anything negative about it is just insecure with their own self. I know, easy lesson for a grown person, not so easy for kids surrounded by peer pressure...At any rate, I certainly won't forbid it, and I fully expect DD to go through a period of shaving. What I won't do is completely bombard her with reasons why not to, because I think that sometimes when parents get all angry and up in arms about something (no matter what it is), their kids just think that they have crazy weird parents. So, all matter of fact is the way that I plan to approach it, and as with everything else, I want my kids to make decisions that are right for them at any given time.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

I think it would be a tricky discussion.

Telling a young girl "I don't shave because I think it's silly, infantilizing, a waste of your time and a symbol of male oppression but hey, you do whatever you want, it's your choice" isn't really giving them a choice, is it?

I mean, reading these posts it's very easy to pick up on the strong feelings people have, and I would think that daughters would want to comply with those feelings to please mom, even if they weren't really sure they believed them.

At least I can speak for myself and say that I often worry about detangling my children's true desires from their desire to please me, if that makes sense.

Ideally, the subject could be discussed neutrally. "Some women shave for X, Y, Z reason, some women don't for X, Y, Z reason."

But I wouldn't use judging words like "silly' and "infantilizing" as the reasons - I think that sort of language would make the daughter feel guilty if she wants to shave.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't shave, but I did when I was younger. I got my period at 9 and started getting armpit and dark leg hair around the same time. My mom would shave my armpits for me (for like 6 months before i started feeling comfortable to do it myself) because I wanted to still look like a little girl ykwim? I didn't want to be the only 4th grader with armpit hair!

but I stopped shaving in my teens when I got involved in the punk/queer/feminist scenes.

I wouldn't censor media simply to avoid shaved women, but having an open dialogue about shaving, beauty standards, what has been beautiful through out time and how that changes etc.

I also don't wear make up and don't really have any in the house

However, I do pluck the surprising number of errant facial and chin hairs I have that seem to have multiplied since pregnancy, although I always feel like a hypocrite while I do it!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Eh, in parenting I think it's okay to be and offer myself, as a person, to the job. So I'm okay with giving my uncensored opinions on things, instead of some evenhanded laying out of all the options with no personal opinion or guidance offered. I do however, know that my opinions are my own, my choices are my own made in the context of my own life and supports, and that my child may have different opinions and make different choices. I think it's okay to be ourselves as long as we respect that we don't know everything and our children may come to different, and equally valid, conclusions.


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## txbikegrrl (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't care what others men or women think but I have very think coarse dark hair so I shave and pluck a lot. I don't really use make up and do not like perpetuating the "baby doll" ideal of society so I want to find a way to pass that on even though I shave. That being said, DH actually shaves his legs as much or more than I do as a cyclist


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

My mom never shaved, she was quite a hippie. My sister and I had various feelings about it at different times. As teenagers, my sister was more into hip-hop culture, she was popular & cool, wore makeup, trendy clothes, & shaved. I was into like grunge music and classic rock & tie dye, I only ever played with make up a little & shaved only once in a while. Like, for swimming with my sister's friends, a trip to LA, a wedding. My mom never hassled us and bought us razors & whatever.
Now, as grown women & mothers, my sister never shaves because she doesn't like to keep razors in the house with her wild kids who love her stuff. She lives in kinda a hippie community, in northern California. And i just started shaving this summer, because I was feeling self-concious & weird about my hairy pits at the mom-tot swim class. I live in a conservative urban area, and my one hippy friend moved away. I am anti-shaving at heart, but I'm maybe a bit of a sell-out?
My daughter just turned 2, so I can't really imagine her ever old enough to hold, let alone use, a razor. But I think if she wants to shave I'll be okay with that. Most teens don't want to feel weird, I don't want to be the funky mom forbidding razors or hairstyles or fashions etc. I'll probably let her get her ears pierced if she asks. But, I will always tell her honestly what I think & why.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *txbikegrrl* 
I don't care what others men or women think but I have very think coarse dark hair so I shave and pluck a lot. I don't really use make up and do not like perpetuating the "baby doll" ideal of society so I want to find a way to pass that on even though I shave. That being said, DH actually shaves his legs as much or more than I do as a cyclist

































I also shave because I am really uncomfortable with my thick coarse hair. That was the original reason I started shaving in the first place at a young age. When I have body hair I itch a lot, am hotter, and smell worse. But I recognize I just have a lot of body hair that is naturally thick and coarse. I guess I am special like that.

That said I could care less whether or not my daughters shave. I will definitely inform them they have an option and that it isn't a *have to*. I will also explain why I do.

Quote:

I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls. I am a woman, I have hair, embrace it!
Interesting! This is how I feel about shaving/waxing one's pubic hair. It revolts me personally so I don't. But as a whole I had never thought of it that way. I can see what you are saying but then I wonder what that means for men who shave- even just their face. Hmmmm... Of course my DH is one of those guys who has a bit of chin stubble and that's it. He just doesn't grow facial hair. So I guess the thought that body hair= man/woman isn't really a fair equation to those that just don't grow it. But yeah I can see what you are saying.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Oh yes also my mom shaved rarely and my grandmother was the same so I grew up with women having body hair. However they are fair skin/haired and their body hair was so.... soft and short and just totally not like mine. I'm still jealous.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

What I won't do is completely bombard her with reasons why not to, because I think that sometimes when parents get all angry and up in arms about something (no matter what it is), their kids just think that they have crazy weird parents.
i think it is important to be honest, without bombarding with reasons or becoming angry and up in arms...

i am certainly not going to try to force my dd to fit my mold. i hope that i will not ever guilt her into anything. but i am definitely opposed to shaving for myself, and do think that it's place in our society is rather skewed. but i also don't think that makes me crazy weird.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiesk* 
i don't shave and i have wondered about these things...and what i emphasize when talking to other people about why i don't shave is that - our society puts ALOT of pressure on women to appear as very young girls - with tiny noses, no body hair, etc. this is the 'ideal' for women's appearance and the underlying concept is that men prefer young girls to mature women?

anyway, i think it is messed up, and while many women shave because they like it, is is more comfortable, etc, i don't shave because i do not want to perpetuate these "beauty myths". and while i don't really care if anyone else shaves or not (obviously not my business...) i do think that when women shave they are collectively perpetuating this "myth".

and...how much money are these people who sell shaving products making? TONS.

that is where i am coming from and my dd will know that. i would not forbid her to shave...obviously, but i don't know how much money i will be willing to spend on shaving products. and i hope that she has a different image and perspective around beauty and what that means for her.

This is exactly how I feel. I know I can't really change people's minds but it makes me pretty sad that women are willingly buying into these "ideals" hook, line and sinker. I long for a world where women truely feel beautiful exactly as they are, where other people don't put emphasis on these kinds of things, where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)

I agree that giving her the info is really all I can do and I will not feel like I failed if she shaves, but I will be grossed out if she dates a guy who likes her "clean and shaven" like a lot of my friends say about guys they have dated. Just the idea that she could or will feel unclean if she doesn't sahve makes me really sad.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Eh, in parenting I think it's okay to be and offer myself, as a person, to the job. So I'm okay with giving my uncensored opinions on things, instead of some evenhanded laying out of all the options with no personal opinion or guidance offered. I do however, know that my opinions are my own, my choices are my own made in the context of my own life and supports, and that my child may have different opinions and make different choices. I think it's okay to be ourselves as long as we respect that we don't know everything and our children may come to different, and equally valid, conclusions.









I might frame this


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambystoma* 
I don't shave my legs, but I do shave my underarms at the moment. I wish I didn't and now at the prospect of having a little girl in a few months, I am seriously considering letting it grow out like I planned to when I have children. Thanks for reminding me.

I think it's important that you have men in your life understand that they aren't to make negative comments to your DD about it. When I was 12, my dad looked over at my legs (which had never been shaved) and said, "god, when's the last time you shaved your legs" and I cried and my mom initiated the shaving ritual which I did for 4 years before calling B.S. (I also started shaving my armpits for a similar reason with another family member who was "disgusted" by the 4 wisps of hair growing under there when I was 10.

I am lucky in part because DH's sister (who will be our children's only aunt, and I'm sure the "cool aunt") doesn't shave at all, so there will be more than 1 female role model for any child we have.

I'm sorry you had those experiences, but it's cool that you eventually came to your own opinions about it.
I agree that your SIL will be a good example to have for your daughter and I also agree that having the men and boys in our girls lives being positive about this issue is important.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

I remember my grandmother pulling me aside when I was mid-20s, giving me a "lady's shaver" and telling me that I needed to use it on my armpits because it was "unsanitary" not to. She didn't have an answer beyond, "Because that's the way it is" when I asked why it wasn't unsanitary for my grandfather-father-brother to not shave their armpits. (BTW something about shortening that to "pits" squicks me out -- don't know why.)

I do different things at different times. The hair that I do grow is fairly scraggly -- I wish it were fuller and prettier -- but I tend to get sore spots especially under my arms so I don't do it regularly. I can't see ever shaving my pubic hair completely on a regular basis again (I did before I had kids, then it felt more adult to have pubic hair plus didn't have the personal grooming time). I do trim for swimsuits and sometimes just because it's fun, but it's not a "because that's how to be attractive" thing.

ETA: I've already presented to my kids that there are various options and various opinions. The only one I don't approve is the anxiety-ridden, "I'll feel so gross if I do/don't" attitude, not that I won't understand if that message gets absorbed, but I won't just rubberstamp it.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I think it would be a tricky discussion.

Telling a young girl "I don't shave because I think it's silly, infantilizing, a waste of your time and a symbol of male oppression but hey, you do whatever you want, it's your choice" isn't really giving them a choice, is it?

I mean, reading these posts it's very easy to pick up on the strong feelings people have, and I would think that daughters would want to comply with those feelings to please mom, even if they weren't really sure they believed them.

At least I can speak for myself and say that I often worry about detangling my children's true desires from their desire to please me, if that makes sense.

Ideally, the subject could be discussed neutrally. "Some women shave for X, Y, Z reason, some women don't for X, Y, Z reason."

But I wouldn't use judging words like "silly' and "infantilizing" as the reasons - I think that sort of language would make the daughter feel guilty if she wants to shave.

It really is tricky because the last thing that I want is o make her feel bad about natural curiosity.
I do want her to know the truth, though, and as I see it shaving has nothing good to offer.
I don't think I would feel bad if she wanted to try it or even if she liked doing it, that seems like a natural phase, it's more about her feeling like she needed to, even if that need was subconscious.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:

And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)
I'm not going to flame you as you are entitled to your own opinion but really who are you to truly know? I just don't think things are as black and white as they are in our own minds, ykwim? To me that's like saying you don't think people get a tattoo or piercing or lose weight or dress in a specific color for themselves. Sometimes people really do do things to feel more comfortable and more "them"









Lest you think I am just here to be a nay sayer







I really am finding this thread interesting! I also find women with body hair really attractive as does DH and have for some time. It has led to some interesting conversations with friends


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *txbikegrrl* 
I don't care what others men or women think but I have very think coarse dark hair so I shave and pluck a lot. I don't really use make up and do not like perpetuating the "baby doll" ideal of society so I want to find a way to pass that on even though I shave. That being said, DH actually shaves his legs as much or more than I do as a cyclist























I presonally find it hard to believe that if our society was excepting or even promoting of natural hair on women that you would still fel compelled to shave and pluck "a lot". TO me you must do it, on some level, because of what others will think. I am not trying to single you out to ridicule you, I just feel in the context of this discussion this is perinent.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Well, I've considered this from the other side. I shave but I want dd to decide for herself. I've told her that I shave because I prefer the way it feels. Dh actually likes my legs hairier but I still don't like the feel of it. To me it is the equivalent of getting hair on your head cut shorter if you prefer that. We don't refer to leg or underarm hair as disgusting.

Dd has watched me shave all her life. At age 9 she tells me her father's hairy legs are nicer feeling than mine. We just talk about why she likes them better.
I know that sometime she might notice that other girls she knows are starting to shave or receive a negative comment. I hope she just feels that I think she is fine the way she is and support her choice either way.

We are mostly TV free so I think any shaving pressure will come mostly from peers.
ETA- We did not stop TV to censor what dd sees. She can choose any age appropriate dvd she wants.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
It really is tricky because the last thing that I want is o make her feel bad about natural curiosity.
I do want her to know the truth, though, and as I see it shaving has nothing good to offer.
I don't think I would feel bad if she wanted to try it or even if she liked doing it, that seems like a natural phase, it's more about her feeling like she needed to, even if that need was subconscious.

I think maybe if shaving is presented more as a fashion thing than a "must do" or "must not do" type of thing? An example- some women prefer short hair and some long, some women shave and some don't. If it's presented as a fashion issue I think that gets more to the issue at hand- that it is more about body image than anything else generally speaking. Kind of like calling circ what it is- cosmetic surgery.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)

If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I'm not going to flame you as you are entitled to your own opinion but really who are you to truly know? I just don't think things are as black and white as they are in our own minds, ykwim? To me that's like saying you don't think people get a tattoo or piercing or lose weight or dress in a specific color for themselves. Sometimes people really do do things to feel more comfortable and more "them"









Lest you think I am just here to be a nay sayer







I really am finding this thread interesting! I also find women with body hair really attractive as does DH and have for some time. It has led to some interesting conversations with friends









Like I said, this is just how I feel in my heart, it doesn't have to be right or wrong, it's just how I feel and I'm ok with it. I don't think shaving was ever something that a woman would have come up with living alone on a desert island never having been introduced to the idea. Again, that's just my opinion. I also feel like it is something women do to be "beautiful", not just out of boredom, I know I am never that bored and if someone were to be that bored I have some great ideas of ways to fill up that time, lol!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I presonally find it hard to believe that if our society was excepting or even promoting of natural hair on women that you would still fel compelled to shave and pluck "a lot". TO me you must do it, on some level, because of what others will think. I am not trying to single you out to ridicule you, I just feel in the context of this discussion this is perinent.

In my personal experience I was cutting my body hair with scissors starting very young because I was so uncomfortable physically with it. My mom and grandparents were 100% against me shaving so I begged my older cousin to bring a razor and show me how. I cannot tell you how liberating it felt. Believe it or not shaving is the only way I am not constantly digging at my skin. So I suppose I am just thankful for the option like I am thankful for the option and that I knew someone who knew how.

Quote:

I don't think shaving was ever something that a woman would have come up with living alone on a desert island never having been introduced to the idea.
See the above. I wanted to get rid of my hair without really knowing how. I just wanted it gone so I started using scissors. That's how uncomfortable it makes me. I think it depends on the woman and the circumstances. If that woman was me and the sun was blaring heck yeah I'd be sharpening a rock. Same goes with trimming one's hair or beard.


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## trancechylde (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.











ITA with this- well put.
(and I _don't_ shave, if that makes any difference!)


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.

I am seriously going to ignore any comments made like this, after this. This is inflammatory. I am simply saying how I feel, being as honest as possible, even though I know some people won't like it. It is actually ok not to agree with me, and it is ok for me to have opinions you don't like or even respect.
But I do have to wonder what the point of having a support thread is if people are going to just charge in and try to start a fight anyway?
I don't have all peachy-rosy opinions all the time. I don't actually like everything everyone does or why they do it. I said in my OP that I understood this was weird to some, that I have an opinion that most don't and I understand that. DOn't join in if you don't like the conversation. It's truely your choice. But I am not interested in *debating* this AT ALL. This is one sided because I am interested in people's opinions from the stand-point that I am coming from on this issue. Is that against the UA?


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Like I said, this is just how I feel in my heart, it doesn't have to be right or wrong, it's just how I feel and I'm ok with it. I don't think shaving was ever something that a woman would have come up with living alone on a desert island never having been introduced to the idea. Again, that's just my opinion. I also feel like it is something women do to be "beautiful", not just out of boredom, I know I am never that bored and if someone were to that bored I have some great ideas of ways to fill up that time, lol!

Sorry to take the thread off topic, but I don't agree with the "a woman would never have come up with that" idea.

All people have greater and lesser levels of body hair. Some people like body hair, some don't. Women have personal preferences, just like men. Some women prefer men with hairy chests, some prefer men with hairless chests. Or like facial hair on men or don't like it. Or think hairy backs are gross or don't.

Are women who prefer hairless chests/faces/backs are guilty of the same sorts of pejorative judgements that have been thrown around about men? (that they are trying to infantilize, that they don't accept men in their natural form, etc)?

If it's okay for me as a woman to be more attracted to a man with a hairless chest, why is it not okay for me, as a women, to prefer myself with hairless legs? (and I'm not even saying these are my preferences, I'm just playing devil's advocate.)


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
In my personal experience I was cutting my body hair with scissors starting very young because I was so uncomfortable physically with it. My mom and grandparents were 100% against me shaving so I begged my older cousin to bring a razor and show me how. I cannot tell you how liberating it felt. Believe it or not shaving is the only way I am not constantly digging at my skin. So I suppose I am just thankful for the option like I am thankful for the option and that I knew someone who knew how.

See the above. I wanted to get rid of my hair without really knowing how. I just wanted it gone so I started using scissors. That's how uncomfortable it makes me. I think it depends on the woman and the circumstances. If that woman was me and the sun was blaring heck yeah I'd be sharpening a rock. Same goes with trimming one's hair or beard.

Mag~ You know I like you







But I really don't want to debate this at all. I am comfortable with my opinions on this and I really really don't want this to turn into a discussion where someone is trying to comvince someone else. That's why I said that in my OP.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Why? I really thought I made it clear what I was looking for in my OP.....


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

well, I do shave (not as often as I would like to, so sometimes my leg hairs get pretty dang long, and fwiw DH does not mind at all) BUT, whether I shave or not has nothing to do with my DD's decision to shave or not. I would never not allow her, or force her to, shave.







Either way it's controlling, and silly to make those decisions for another human being. I mean, I wouldn't give my 4 yo a razor, and say do what makes you happy, but if my pre-teen DD was at a point where she herself wanted to shave, I would give her an electric razor like I use myself (it's pretty impossible to cut yourself, and to me that's the biggest risk I see when 'letting' your child shave).


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
Sorry to take the thread off topic, but I don't agree with the "a woman would never have come up with that" idea.

All people have greater and lesser levels of body hair. Some people like body hair, some don't. Women have personal preferences, just like men. Some women prefer men with hairy chests, some prefer men with hairless chests. Or like facial hair on men or don't like it. Or think hairy backs are gross or don't.

Are women who prefer hairless chests/faces/backs are guilty of the same sorts of pejorative judgements that have been thrown around about men? (that they are trying to infantilize, that they don't accept men in their natural form, etc)?

If it's okay for me as a woman to be more attracted to a man with a hairless chest, why is it not okay for me, as a women, to prefer myself with hairless legs? (and I'm not even saying these are my preferences, I'm just playing devil's advocate.)

Yup!

And also I think I have figured out why I never thought of shaving as meaning you are trying to look like a child- because I had loads of body hair as a child!














:


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## KnittingTigers (Mar 16, 2007)

Hmm, I always find the shaving conversation fascinating!

I do shave sometimes. Not because my hair is particularly course and thick. Not because it's more comfortable. But, just because I like to, and my particular iteration of my queer femme identity sometimes involves shaved legs. My DP does not shave, nor do any of the (mostly butch) women with whom I've had relationships over the past ten years.

The very fact of our family (queer femme me, genderqueer DP) means that my DD will be exposed to a variety of ideas about masculinity and femininity, gender and beauty, and what bodies look like. It absolutely terrifies me to think of all the Disney princess crap that she'll be exposed to in the world, but I have to believe that growing up in a house where a range of different notions about gender and beauty and bodies are, well, embodied, will help her to feel confident in herself, and in whatever choices she ultimately makes.

Just my $.02...


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## purplepaperclip (May 19, 2008)

I think to not "allow" my dd to shave would way too controlling. It is her body to do as she wishes.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
*I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls. I am a woman, I have hair, embrace it!*











This is what I say all the time, but I still find myself shaving my armpit hair in the hot summers about once a week. This is solely for my comfort and for reducing my armpit sweat odor. (And why do I feel I must defend my choice to shave my armpit hair in the summer?







when I'm on a support only thread, no less.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
So what I'm wondering is how I will approach this with my dd. I know that TV and media in general support shaving, promote shaving and advertise shaving products like mad. We are not TV free.
I want to instill in her the idea that she is already created perfectly by God in his image. That she doesn't have to conform to society's gender roles like 'smooth big breasted sexy kitten girl' and what not.
But I don't want to alienate her if she is interested in shaving, either.

Do I need to just go TV free and really sensor her media? I am pretty anit-censorship, but I don't want to program her with ideas I don't agree with just for the sake of not censoring, y'know?

I don't think you need to go TV free. I just think you need to be there to offer a healthy perspective, to put in your two cents, to open up a discussion, so she won't feel the media is the one and only truth.

I agree with thismana and katie:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't shave, and I think shaving is silly and yes infantalizing and uncomfortable. I will probably tell my daughter that if/when she asks, but what she does with her own body is her choice.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiesk* 
i don't shave and i have wondered about these things...and what i emphasize when talking to other people about why i don't shave is that - our society puts A LOT of pressure on women to appear as very young girls - with tiny noses, no body hair, etc. this is the 'ideal' for women's appearance and the underlying concept is that men prefer young girls to mature women?

anyway, i think it is messed up, and while many women shave because they like it, is is more comfortable, etc, i don't shave because i do not want to perpetuate these "beauty myths". and while i don't really care if anyone else shaves or not (obviously not my business...) i do think that when women shave they are collectively perpetuating this "myth".

and...how much money are these people who sell shaving products making? TONS.

that is where i am coming from and my dd will know that. i would not forbid her to shave...obviously, but i don't know how much money i will be willing to spend on shaving products. and i hope that she has a different image and perspective around beauty and what that means for her.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I don't shave, but I did when I was younger.
but I stopped shaving in my teens when I got involved in the punk/queer/feminist scenes.

I wouldn't censor media simply to avoid shaved women, but having an open dialogue about shaving, beauty standards, what has been beautiful through out time and how that changes etc.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I also don't wear make up and don't really have any in the house

However, I do pluck the surprising number of errant facial and chin hairs I have that seem to have multiplied since pregnancy, although I always feel like a hypocrite while I do it!

Me, too, to both.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Eh, in parenting I think it's okay to be and offer myself, as a person, to the job. So I'm okay with giving my uncensored opinions on things, instead of some evenhanded laying out of all the options with no personal opinion or guidance offered. I do however, know that my opinions are my own, my choices are my own made in the context of my own life and supports, and that my child may have different opinions and make different choices. I think it's okay to be ourselves as long as we respect that we don't know everything and our children may come to different, and equally valid, conclusions.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
This is exactly how I feel. I know I can't really change people's minds but it makes me pretty sad that women are willingly buying into these "ideals" hook, line and sinker. I long for a world where women truly feel beautiful exactly as they are, where other people don't put emphasis on these kinds of things, where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!











Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I agree that giving her the info is really all I can do and I will not feel like I failed if she shaves, but I will be grossed out if she dates a guy who likes her "clean and shaven" like a lot of my friends say about guys they have dated. Just the idea that she could or will feel unclean if she doesn't shave makes me really sad.

I'd have a really big problem if some guy wanted my daughters to shave (once they're of dating age, of course!). I would think they were pervs or pedophiles or freaks and I wouldn't want them anywhere around my daughters.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.

i think it is ok to have strong feelings about something - like this - and while holding the feeling that something might be wrong, still not have any judgement for others who don't agree.

so the op clearly has string feelings around shaving, and she has some assumptions about others who shave...but i don't necessarily think that she is being judgemental. or i guess, i could just come from my own point of view - i really do think that most of the people i know who shave do it largely due to societal pressure. not that someone has specifically pressured them, but it is culturally weird, dirty, "hippie" etc not to shave. most people don't want to be seen as a weird, dirty hippie! anyway, i think that although my friends agree with my thoughts around shaving, they still do it because to not do it would be uncomfortable...thinking about what others think of them. i mean, they have basically said as much. so, i think that is perpetuating these unfortunate beauty stereotypes. but do i care? do i want to judge them for it? nope. everyone gets to decide what they do with their own bodies. but i do think that shaving for the most part is unfortunate.


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## Mama2Rio (Oct 25, 2008)

i don't shave, okay i rarely shave, like 2 times in the past year. dd likes to play with my arm pit hair while she is bfing and if i shave, she just pinches me! i'm not sure what i will tell dd about shaving when she gets older. i think i'll let her form her own oppinion about it. i don't shave because it's a waste of time, it drys out my skin and it doesn't always fell natural.

personally, i don't mind body hair. my dh is very hairy. i'm italian and i'm just use to seeing hairy men growing up. my mother is very conforming with 'social norms' and always shaved. i started to shave when i was 14 because i thought i 'had to'. i felt pressured from peers and my own mother. i'm happy i'm way beyond that phase and i'm much more comfortable with my body how it is than i was as a teen and don't feel like i have to compare myself to another.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I really just wanted to know what other people will be doing or are doing about being an unshaven mom and explaining this complex social issue to their dd and I have gotten some good responses to that for which I am appreciative.
I do have strong feelings about this and I do have strong feelings about the responses I have gotten from women who feel the need to be defensive about their choice to shave.

I like the idea that I can authentically be myself as a mom, truely say what I feel, but still embrace my daughters right to explore this issue on her own. I know that she will open my eyes to many issues in the future, as she has already done so on her short time on this earth. Maybe this will be one of those issues, time will tell.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I've always thought Desmond Morris' stuff about human sexuality is really interesting. here is an excerpt of his that gives a well-balanced discussion of hair growth and removal (this excerpt is specific to pubic hair).

ETA: here is another excerpt, about armpit hair.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama2Rio* 
i don't shave, okay i rarely shave, like 2 times in the past year. dd likes to play with my arm pit hair while she is bfing and if i shave, she just pinches me! i'm not sure what i will tell dd about shaving when she gets older. i think i'll let her form her own oppinion about it. i don't shave because it's a waste of time, it drys out my skin and it doesn't always fell natural.

personally, i don't mind body hair. my dh is very hairy. i'm italian and i'm just use to seeing hairy men growing up. my mother is very conforming with 'social norms' and always shaved. i started to shave when i was 14 because i thought i 'had to'. i felt pressured from peers and my own mother. i'm happy i'm way beyond that phase and i'm much more comfortable with my body how it is than i was as a teen and don't feel like i have to compare myself to another.

It really is such a vast waste of time, LOL!
When I have lived with female roommates in the past it amazes me how much time they spend shaving, it has to happen like everyday......which blows my mind. I don't even shower everday and that is truely an understatement. And the shaving is really just the tip of the iceberg as far as time wasted on "beauty" regimens, but that is another post that I will probably never attempt!


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I've always thought Desmond Morris' stuff about human sexuality is really interesting. here is an excerpt of his that gives a well-balanced discussion of hair growth and removal (this excerpt is specific to pubic hair).

ETA: here is another excerpt, about armpit hair.


I'm still reading your first link. Thanks!


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

I will tell my daughter this: http://radicalchristiancrunchyknotty...-we-shave.html and if she still wants to shave that's her business as long as she's old enough to control the razor and not slice herself up.
We are tv free but we still have to deal with worldly influence. Just tell her how you feel mama and support her decisions even if they are different. I'm fully prepared to have a high heel/make-up/nail polish wearing shaven/waxed daughter lol. It's just not that much of an issue for me as long as I stress to her that she doesn't _need_ those things but is choosing them because she likes them for herself.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

You know what? Never mind. I'm just a drone who does what the men tell me, anyway.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

*KristaDJ*~ I am reading your blog post in spurts and loving it so far.









*sisteeesmama*~ I hope you don't mind me sticking around. I did come here because I have 5 daughters and am curious about things like this. I didn't mean to turn the thread so OT but the comments being made about women like me were just so far off. I understand wanting a support only thread but it's hard to maintain one when comments are made that can be hurtful and untrue about a group of people, ykwim? So I spoke up. It's what I do.







Again, sorry I took your thread so OT. Hope you don't mind if I stick around. As I said this is something with having daughters that I do have on my mind .


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
*KristaDJ*~ I am reading your blog post in spurts and loving it so far.









*sisteeesmama*~ I hope you don't mind me sticking around. I did come here because I have 5 daughters and am curious about things like this. I didn't mean to turn the thread so OT but the comments being made about women like me were just so far off. I understand wanting a support only thread but it's hard to maintain one when comments are made that can be hurtful and untrue about a group of people, ykwim? So I spoke up. It's what I do.







Again, sorry I took your thread so OT. Hope you don't mind if I stick around. As I said this is something with having daughters that I do have on my mind .

Of course I don't mind *at all*, like I said I like you and often times we agree pretty succinctly, don't we! So we don't agree on this really at all, I am still glad to have you in this thread


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I haven't shaved in several years. It's my body, and I'm happy with my G-d given womanly hair.

However, I trust that once my daughters are old enough to grow womanly hair of their own, they're old enough to make their own decisions about their bodies. DD1 started shaving her legs around age 12. I buy her razors and I taught her how to shave safely. I also remind her frequently that she doesn't HAVE to keep on shaving if she doesn't want to. She's recently stopped shaving her armpits







although she still does shave her legs.

DD2 doesn't really have anything to shave just yet, and at this point plans to remain fuzzy. But we'll see what happens in a few months or years- if she changes her mind, that's OK too.

I know all the societal reasons for shaving, the history of it, etc. But the fact remains that my kids DO live in the current world, and if either or both of them is more comfortable with her body if she shaves, it really is OK. I'm not going to push my ideology onto THEIR bodies. It's only hair. It grows back.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinksprklybarefoot* 
*I* do shave, but every time my stepdaughter has asked a question about it, I have always told her that it is something that some women do, but it is your body and your choice once you are older. Just like anything else people do to their bodies (piercing, tatoos, make-up, hairstyles) I don't want her to think that it is something that she has to do.

I'm not sure how you would go about outright forbidding it - it might become quite the power struggle when she is a teen if all of her friends do shave. It is probably the sort of thing that you would want to start talking to her about at a young age.

Same here. When dd has asked me about shaving, I tell her that some women do it and some don't. I've also told her that it's her decision to make whether or not to shave when she's older. I always add that some people think it looks very gross or unattractive when a woman doesn't shave, but people who think that are definitely wrong, and there's not a thing gross about body hair.

I guess I don't really have a strong opinion on shaving or not shaving. Do whatever feels best for you! I don't feel like forbidding shaving/not shaving is really fair. I can't imagine that most parents would force their children TO shave, so it seems weird to forbid a child to do it, KWIM?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks for all of the great ideas/comments/input I have gotten!























And Krista, I LOVE that blog post of yours, I send people to that to explain how I feel about this issue for myself, it really is perfect!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom* 
Same here. When dd has asked me about shaving, I tell her that some women do it and some don't. I've also told her that it's her decision to make whether or not to shave when she's older. I always add that some people think it looks very gross or unattractive when a woman doesn't shave, but people who think that are definitely wrong, and there's not a thing gross about body hair.

I guess I don't really have a strong opinion on shaving or not shaving. Do whatever feels best for you! I don't feel like forbidding shaving/not shaving is really fair. I can't imagine that most parents would force their children TO shave, so it seems weird to forbid a child to do it, KWIM?


For the record, although I think I made it clear, I would *never* tell her she couldn't shave, that IMO would be weird and creepy. I support her for whatever, my issue is making it plain as day in a positive way that not shving is the normal thing and shaving is actually kind of wierd when you know the history of it. (Plus it's just not necessary and I would like to instill values in her well beyond her looks. I would love it if beauty could be about personality, intellect, creativity. Not something to devote copious amounts of time to in the external sense. And I can even see how clothes and hair and makeup lend to a persons own expression of themself, but I find it hard to correlate that to shaving.)


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## Aleo (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.









:
I agree with this but.....

I can see were you are coming from sisteeesmama, I personally hated my body hair as a child just as other mamma said. I started shaving when I was 8,I told my older sister to do it. My mom was furious about it, but heck I didn't felt comfortable. Once I was hospitalized for 3 weeks, couldn't shave. Got home and it was the first thing I did. I just felt unclean, I dont mean it to offend but that's the way I felt...


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)


That would be really difficult to determine.

I mean, I can say that I shave only for my own self in that no one has asked me to and I only do it when I feel like it. But I know that I probably do it partly because I have culture whispering in my ear.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
For the record, although I think I made it clear, I would *never* tell her she couldn't shave, that IMO would be weird and creepy.

I think the reason people are saying that they wouldn't try to control what their DD's do (shave or not) is b/c of the word "allow" in your title. That's all. To me, it seems weird and controlling regardless of motive to say no when a child wants to shave. I had a friend that couldn't shave until she was 16, b/c for some reason that was the 'acceptable' age to shave. My thoughts are that the only danger is the risk of injury, which is why I would teach my DD how to shave carefully with a standard razor, or show her how to use an electric one like I use.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Why? I really thought I made it clear what I was looking for in my OP.....

Because in your subsquent post you made the statement that no woman would choose to shave for her own reasons, that the only reason women shave is because of societal pressure, even if the woman says she is choosing to for her own reason she's just fooling herself or subconsciously trying to comply to the "norm", etc.

That was NOT what you said in your OP and took the discussion to a different place.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
Because in your subsquent post you made the statement that no woman would choose to shave for her own reasons, that the only reason women shave is because of societal pressure, even if the woman says she is choosing to for her own reason she's just fooling herself or subconsciously trying to comply to the "norm", etc.

That was NOT what you said in your OP and took the discussion to a different place.


No, I did not take it to a different place than I intended. I said that I definately do not agree with shaving in my OP and then said that I don't like shaving in all of my subsequent posts.
I do think it is impossible to say that you know you shave only for yourself because everyone is influenced in ways they don't even comprehend.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

GOD. Shave or don't but why trash people who make different choices then you do? Silly and infantile? Nice.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

as a woman who shaves i can say with 100% certainty that a huge part of it for me was 'societal pressure' not like people were pressuring me to do it but that most women didn't have body hair so i shaved too. i hit puberty young and i started shaving my bikini line b/c i didn't want the world to see my pubic hair when i went swimming.

i am a sporadic shaver.. i shave when i am going out or w/e in an outfit that will show my legs... i always shave my arm pits especially if i am wearing a tank top. i hate shaving and i wouldn't do it if not shaving was more normal. i never shave above the knee or anything. i can go a long time without shaving my legs before it is noticeable but my arm pits are another story.

i don't know what i would do in your situation. i don't want my kids to feel pressured to shave but i think it is a bit inevitable. i went to middle school with a girl who didn't shave her armpits and she was teased mercilessly.

on a similar subject... at least women aren't required to shave... in high school any guy who came to school with facial hair had to shave in the office.. i believe it was a dry shaving too.. which for guys is especially ouch inducing.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
There is nothing more feminist than asserting that women are mindless robots without minds of their own who go along with something just because a man says









That says a helluva lot more about how one views women than it does about this "evil patriarchy" who is forcing us, against our will, to conform to their standards, and if we choose to shave we are really not choosing it because we silly women are obviously incapable of making decisions unless we are trying to please a man!

Yes, it screams feminist.

(from someone who shaves, or not, depending on whim and on season with a partner who doesn't care either way).

I don't take responsibility for other women's choices or actions. Women possess the potential to live up to their natural beauty, that doesn't mean that most take advantage of that. That is sad to me. Women are selling there own selves out on a myriad of levels, that is not my fault.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i guess i don't see anything particularly crazy about the belief that many women shave b/c of societal pressure... sure i shave because i want to... i want to because i think it looks better... i think it looks better b/c in this cultural it is considered gross for women to have body hair.

the infantile thing is intriguing to me... i wonder how this plays in to the way men look at young girls. is it healthy for our society to continue to blur the difference between sexually mature women and little girls?


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

So now on top of being disgusting, silly and infantile, women who shave are sellouts?

That's a lot to read into a simple cosmetic choice.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I don't really care why anyone shaves or doesn't shave, or if they think it's conforming TO shave, or disgusting NOT to shave... BUT, our DD's have a mind of their own and, IMO, should be allowed to do whatever they choose regarding shaving or not shaving their body hair. Heck, if they want to shave their heads that should be *allowed*. I'm all about raising my children to think for themselves -- but even if they want to shave their legs b/c it's what everyone else at school is doing, so be it. It's not life threatening or MY decision as a parent to make - whether my own legs are hairy atm or not (they are).


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i guess i don't see anything particularly crazy about the belief that many women shave b/c of societal pressure... sure i shave because i want to... i want to because i think it looks better... i think it looks better b/c in this cultural it is considered gross for women to have body hair.

the infantile thing is intriguing to me... i wonder how this plays in to the way men look at young girls. is it healthy for our society to continue to blur the difference between sexually mature women and little girls?

I was hoping the conversation would follow up on the second part. That is what I find concerning, especially in regard to my daughters and what expectations they may face in their future.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

even if it is 'selling out' or buying into societies warped idea of women i do not think there is anything wrong with wanting to 'fit in' so to speak. it is normal to want to fit it and not every body is comfortable (or has the desire) to stand out in the same way. there are things i do and don't do that are not the norm and i don't care if people don't like it... and there are things other women do or don't do that i understand the reasoning for but am not comfortable adopting the practice.

shaving, clothing, make up, hair styling, peircings, tattoos... these are all choices that people make. i used to have more piercing than i can count and many people find that really strange.. i also have a tattoo in a place that involved getting very personal with my friendly neighborhood tattoo artist, i don't wear make up, and my clothing choices are all over the map.... so you'd think i wouldn't give a crap what people think about my arm pit hair.. but this is one of the ways in which i prefer not to stand out.







everyone is different.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
For the record, although I think I made it clear, I would *never* tell her she couldn't shave, that IMO would be weird and creepy. I support her for whatever, my issue is making it plain as day in a positive way that not shving is the normal thing and shaving is actually kind of wierd when you know the history of it. (Plus it's just not necessary and I would like to instill values in her well beyond her looks. I would love it if beauty could be about personality, intellect, creativity. Not something to devote copious amounts of time to in the external sense. And I can even see how clothes and hair and makeup lend to a persons own expression of themself, but I find it hard to correlate that to shaving.)

I totally understand your view. I was also confused by the use of "allow" in the thread title. I never got the impression that you personally would forbid your dd to shave. Hopefully, growing up with a mama who believes that not shaving should be the norm, and puts that into practice, will set the example for your dd. I do believe that beauty is about personality, intellect and creativity. It is to me, and that's what I try to instill in my children. That's all we can do.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

is it healthy for our society to continue to blur the difference between sexually mature women and little girls?
no. it is not healthy at all. this is mostly why i don't shave and why i wish (but don't really care) that others would not either.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiesk* 
no. it is not healthy at all. this is mostly why i don't shave and why i wish (but don't really care) that others would not either.

I've seen references to this multiple times, and I've even read a few links over the years. However, I've never seen anything resembling proof that female shaving has anything to do with blurring the line between mature women and girls. Anybody got anything on that?

In any case, I'm not prepared to live with hair that I don't like just because other people don't like it. I won't be uncomfortable because some guy thinks I look better, and I won't be uncomfortable because some feminist thinks I look more liberated.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've seen references to this multiple times, and I've even read a few links over the years. However, I've never seen anything resembling proof that female shaving has anything to do with blurring the line between mature women and girls. Anybody got anything on that?

The Desmond Morris links I provided earlier talk a lot about it (not in terms of providing proof, just in terms of adding to the discussion). They also bring up the same issue that another poster brought up -- how come no one ever says that it's infantilizing for men to shave their beards, or that women who prefer clean-shaven men must have a thing for young boys?


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
They also bring up the same issue that another poster brought up -- how come no one ever says that it's infantilizing for men to shave their beards, or that women who prefer clean-shaven men must have a thing for young boys?

Good point!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

a woman's body hair increases dramatically once she hits puberty. shaving, especially removing all of the pubic hair, makes a woman's vagina resemble that of a pre pubescent girl. this is not the only beauty marker in society that serves this purpose. another example is out emphasis on being thin and eschewing the curves most women have. those curves become more prominent the closer a girl gets to adulthood.


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## fork (Feb 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
The Desmond Morris links I provided earlier talk a lot about it (not in terms of providing proof, just in terms of adding to the discussion). They also bring up the same issue that another poster brought up -- how come no one ever says that it's infantilizing for men to shave their beards, or that women who prefer clean-shaven men must have a thing for young boys?

I often hear women say that it is "creepy" that some men prefer shaved women. I honestly never understood it. There are so many physically different things between a grown woman and a pre-pubescent girl. Body hair is just one small part of that. I see it as no different than someone preferring brunettes or people with green eyes.

I'll even go a step further and say that I don't like body hair on myself, or anyone I'm intimate with. In my perfect world the only body hair humans would have would be on their heads and their eyebrows. DP shaves everything except his arms and legs, but he has toyed with the idea of shaving his legs. He's a red-head, so it's not like he has a ton of dark hair but he can't stand the tiny bit of chest hair that he has. Would I leave DP if he suddenly decided that shaving wasn't for him? Of course not, but I probably wouldn't be as sexually attracted to him either. Kind of like how I would be a little less attracted to him if he grew a mullet







I guess that if I had some subconscious attraction to young boys, I probably wouldn't be with someone that is 13 years my senior.

For the record, I never asked him to shave or said anything about it. It is a habit that he's had since before I knew him.

Anyways, so this isn't completely off topic... I'd explain shaving to any future daughters that it is a personal style choice, much like a hairstyle. No option is the "wrong" option as long as it's something they like and want for themselves.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
The Desmond Morris links I provided earlier talk a lot about it (not in terms of providing proof, just in terms of adding to the discussion). They also bring up the same issue that another poster brought up -- how come no one ever says that it's infantilizing for men to shave their beards, or that women who prefer clean-shaven men must have a thing for young boys?

When I clicked your link, I just got a summary of a book, not any excerpts. I tend to wonder about that, myself - the male shaving thing. I personally prefer less facial hair, from a comfort standpoint, although dh does wear a beard sometimes, and he looks great, either way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
a woman's body hair increases dramatically once she hits puberty. shaving, especially removing all of the pubic hair, makes a woman's vagina resemble that of a pre pubescent girl. this is not the only beauty marker in society that serves this purpose. another example is out emphasis on being thin and eschewing the curves most women have. those curves become more prominent the closer a girl gets to adulthood.

But, women in our society were routinely shaving _long_ before the current emphasis on being thin came into play. The feminist view of shaving has also been around a _lot_ longer than the trend to shaving or otherwise depilating the genitals. When I was younger, when people talked about women shaving, there was no doubt they were talking about armpits and legs...not the genital area. This is really quite new. I've also been shaving my genitals for...almost 30 years, and they've _never_ looked anything like the genitals of a pre-pubescent girl. That's not why I do it. (It's also not why I prefer less/no pubic hair on my partner...although it's obviously his choice, just as shaving is my choice.) In fact, the first time I did it, I'd never heard of it being done at all - I just thought I'd like it, and I did/do.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fork* 
Anyways, so this isn't completely off topic... I'd explain shaving to any future daughters that it is a personal style choice, much like a hairstyle. No option is the "wrong" option as long as it's something they like and want for themselves.

This.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i have to say that i agree 100% with it being a personal choice. no one should shave or not shave b/c of a partners preference or something like that. i occasionally shave my pubic hair but if dp ever decided he wanted me to shave all the time or something it would be an issue.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i have to say that i agree 100% with it being a personal choice. no one should shave or not shave b/c of a partners preference or something like that. i occasionally shave my pubic hair but if dp ever decided he wanted me to shave all the time or something it would be an issue.

It wouldn't be an issue here. I _do_ shave all the time, but if he wanted me to stop, I'd just say "no", and that would be that. I have to say, though, that it's never come up. Neither one of us cares what the other does about their body hair.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

so sort of on topic... i didn't know until i was in college that some guys shaved their genitals... i mean obviously it doesn't come up much in conversation but i was totally shocked that this was not unusual... i mean i really only did it b/c i didn't want it coming out of my bathing suit.. and when i was older b/c ... well.. for slightly less modest reasons. but anyways since guys don't have the bathing suit problem i could never figure out why they would shave


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## MamieCole (Jun 1, 2007)

So I am genuinely curious...

Do those of you who feel that shaving for women is conforming to male ideals of beauty and infantilizing, oppressive, etc, how do you feel about other grooming issues that can be lumped into the "beautification for others, not ones self" category?

Do you feel the same way about trimming fingernails? Painting fingernails? Removing ear wax? Cutting hair on your head into a style or trimming it at all for that matter? Coloring your hair? Wearing clothing? Wearing deodorant?

Do those of you who do not shave do any of the above? If so, how is it different?

All of those things are "changing" the natural way our bodies look or smell. Where is the line between shaving vs. other grooming?

Sincerely just curious.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
so sort of on topic... i didn't know until i was in college that some guys shaved their genitals... i mean obviously it doesn't come up much in conversation but i was totally shocked that this was not unusual... i mean i really only did it b/c i didn't want it coming out of my bathing suit.. and when i was older b/c ... well.. for slightly less modest reasons. but anyways since guys don't have the bathing suit problem i could never figure out why they would shave









Various reasons. The first one that comes to mind is probably a UAV, though.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

o man... i can usually guess what people don't say... but i am totally at a loss here.


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## fork (Feb 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
but anyways since guys don't have the bathing suit problem i could never figure out why they would shave









For the same reasons many women shave. They find it more comfortable, they like the way it looks/feels, and erm... ease of use during intercourse.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i do shave but i don't wear makeup really... want to know something sort of weird? when i wear contacts i am way more likely to wear make up then when i am wearing my glasses.. same with earrings... since i don't have contacts right now i almost never wear earrings or make up.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fork* 
For the same reasons many women shave. They find it more comfortable, they like the way it looks/feels, and erm... ease of use during intercourse.









wow ... i have no idea how that would make a difference. now i want to know.. oooo DPPPPPP







once he finished laughing he would go hide the razors.









i wonder if a guy who wanted to shave his arm pits would get the same negative reactions as a woman who didn't shave hers.


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## Hesperia (Sep 3, 2007)

Some normal and hairy support!







:









I think it is important to share with your children (male and female) why you choose to do something, or not, and why. We can only hope that we pass along some of what we feel so passionately about. I feel really strongly about showing my body in a natural and normal way for ME. Not because I think this is the only way, but the right way for me.

My mother tried to get my not to shave my legs when I was a teen. I started shaving super early at 10 or 11. I felt huge pressure to. And, huge pressure from my mom to NOT. It was gross to feel both ways to me. My mother would point out any time I plucked the brows. She nows flips out that my lovely normal armpits - but thinks that the legs are fine *shrug*

Now, I don't shave or remove any hair (eye brows are all there, nose hair, and toe hair). I do trim my pit hair every few months since it grows like a weed!

I want my children to feel unpressed to make the choices that a right for them, with a critical mind. I hope to encourage this, but don't feel in any way we can control it. It will usually just blow up in your face


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

I don't have a dog in this fight. But, I did learn in sociology class that the pinking of lips and rouge was to make oneself appear younger/aka more fertile. I have noticed now that I have kids how cool it is that they do have cherry lips and natural glows. The eyes? No idea why we do that (though that is the only thing I do since I am blond everywhere but my head which is just weird to me).

The only thing I don't like is full shaved genitals because to me I look like my 12 year old self and gross myself out, and a partner better not be shaved because I am just not that into pre-pubescent males. trimming is just to keep things neat. I don't think trimming is anything but a personal choice.

Hair or no hair, I think SO much of what we do is to be attractive to partners on a subconcious level. If I was living in a commune of all women I wouldn't wear make-up, die my hair, wear tight clothing and would still trim. I would most definately wear my armpit hair long.

But, I am here in society and while not so concerned about fitting in or being attractive to the opposite sex (as in I don't do a lot of things that women do) I can't say I don't do things to fit in. I shave. I wear mascara and some days I even muster the strength to care what my clothes look like.

I take it as "it is what it is". Nobody has to do what they don't want to do. I know I should style my hair according to some, but don't feel like it. I shave, but for some they just don't feel like it. Cool. I always say take what you want from society and reject what you don't. To each of us what we reject and what we accept are very different.

And to me....most of what we do looks wise isn't for ourselves. It is for ourselves through the eyes of others. That just is. We are social beings and don't think that it is weird to do it. (Not all things of course! Some just is done to feel more comfortable physically!).


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

This has been an interesting thread to read! I love all the different opinions...

I am a shaver myself (when I have the time







). I plan to let my children make their own choices about shaving and when to start. I think I look nicer shaved and I think my husband looks nicer when he shaves his face. If he got his back waxed, even better







I don't think shaving is about making someone look younger - just smoother and less hairy. An old person can shave all they want but, they are still going to look old if that is the type of skin they have. It's just one of those things, I've never liked a hairy guy face but I certainly find nothing sexually attractive about a young boy who has not yet started to grow facial hair. I don't think my legs look younger without hair - just prettier







I think men prefer a waxed / shaved genital area so that oral sex is more pleasing to give. I know I am glad that penises don't have hair. (hope I'm not violating anything here - just trying to respond to different points I've seen raised.)

Anyway - to tie this all into the original post - I will not attempt to tell my daughter that there is anything wrong with shaving or not shaving. I will not attempt to tell her that either is the right thing to do either. I will say it is a matter of personal preferance as far as looks and comfort go and that I think she is beautiful whatever she chooses. I honestly think that to make anything more out of the decision to shave or not shave is just attaching too much meaning to a simple physical preferance.


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## spicyrock (Apr 11, 2009)

Ironically, as I am reading this thread ads for laser hair removal keep appearing in the margins...


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamieCole* 
So I am genuinely curious...

Do those of you who feel that shaving for women is conforming to male ideals of beauty and infantilizing, oppressive, etc, how do you feel about other grooming issues that can be lumped into the "beautification for others, not ones self" category?

Do you feel the same way about trimming fingernails? Painting fingernails? Removing ear wax? Cutting hair on your head into a style or trimming it at all for that matter? Coloring your hair? Wearing clothing? Wearing deodorant?

Do those of you who do not shave do any of the above? If so, how is it different?

All of those things are "changing" the natural way our bodies look or smell. Where is the line between shaving vs. other grooming?

Sincerely just curious.

ok i'll bite!

i don't shave
I do not wear makeup
I rarely wear deodorant (only when I haven't showered in several days or a week and need to be around folks who would notice I smelled, which is not the majority of the folks I choose to hang out with)
I do not paint my nails
I trim my nails them for hygiene and safe sex reasons
i have short hair because I do not want to spend anytime hairstyling
I used to color my hair but only "crazy" colors to subvert the dominant paradigm
I wear clothes because it illegal for me to leave my house without clothes on and because i do not like the way it feels when "things" touch my skin. also the weather is a factor is clothes wearing
I don't "tan" on purpose only from being outside
My clothing is practical, mostly from thrift stores, and not "fashionable"


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

the first time i ever dyed my hair it was hott pink... my mom helped me do it!


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

I leave my legs alone. However, I shave my armpits, bc I tend to get more body odor there. My DH also shaves his armpits for the same reason.

I trim/shave my bikini line, bc pubic hairs drive me crazy. They get itchy and caught in the legs of my underwear.

I will not push my DD to do things one way or another. It's her choice. I don't think television will influence her as much as her peers, and I have no intention of sheltering her from either.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

All this talk about shaving being a way for women to look like children and that men are just deep down pedophiles (pretty much) has me







And this applies to the voluptuous breast, flat tummy, round bum love how? And if "they" wanted us to look like little girls wouldn't chubby thighs and cheeks be ok and not put down?

No I think as far as society goes shaving is about hygiene. Not to say women aren't doing it because "it's just what is done" but I know when I someone chooses not to shave it is viewed as "not caring for themselves" "gross" and unhygienic.

I remember when I was in 7th grade Paula Cole sang at the Grammy's and when she lifted up her arm she had underarm hair. I thought it was so cool but my friends commented on how dirty it was not to shave, how she must spell, they wondered if she even bathed. I have heard the same sort of stigma towards men with "unkempt" facial hair or even longer hair so no it's not just towards women.

My aunt gags when she cleans stray hair off the floor and counter tops. Really hair just grosses people out, folks. It doesn't have to be about anything more than the "ick" factor. And this is not a new thing. As a PP said ancient Egypt had the same mindset.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Shaving is not about mere hygiene or men would be the ones to shave their bodies. They make more hair generally and have a stronger smell. Not buying the hygiene argument!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:

The only thing I don't like is full shaved genitals because to me I look like my 12 year old self and gross myself out,
This is so flipping me out! By 12 I had forgotten what I looked like without pubic hair.







:

But yeah I do feel like a child when I shave down there. It also isn't comfortable to me. I do keep it well trimmed though. Though honestly the women I know who shave down below whom I have asked all said it was gross not to to them what with everything else going on down there.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)

I think that's a little judgemental. I _like_ to shave. Perhaps it's living in southern California with no airconditioning, when it can be over 100 in the house, or maybe the fact I just find it cleaner...but I shave for myself, including trimming and/or shaving nearly my entire body. It has nothing to do with desiring an infantile appearance or what my DH thinks. In fact, he shaves quite a bit, too. It's HOT here and it feels better...and I just plain like my legs shaven. If it's been a few days, I have no problem leaving the house unshaven.

I also find myself stronger smelling when I don't keep things neat, particularly like now during pregnancy. The heat only exacerbates that and makes me feel like I want to shower multiple times per day. I have a personal need to feel clean, and for ME, that means I enjoy lathering up and shaving down.

To insinuate that all women who shave are insecure and simply perpetuating a man's "desire" is pretty offensive. I'm sure there are plenty of other women (and MEN) whose shaving is not related to what the general public is thinking or the most recent Playboy trend. I don't judge women who don't shave at all; why judge women who do as ignorant?

To echo others, I'll let DD choose for herself whether she wants to shave or not. I don't think shaving is anti-woman - I've known plenty of women who don't shave and plenty of men who don't care. If she chooses to shave for personal comfort or other reasons, that is her agenda and I'll provide her razors if and when she asks.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Shaving is not about mere hygiene or men would be the ones to shave their bodies. They make more hair generally and have a stronger smell. Not buying the hygiene argument!

Not selling it. I am simply saying that in society body hair= gross. And even men are catching on. It's not body hair= "too old for me"


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hesperia* 
Some normal and hairy support!







:









I think it is important to share with your children (male and female) why you choose to do something, or not, and why. We can only hope that we pass along some of what we feel so passionately about. I feel really strongly about showing my body in a natural and normal way for ME. Not because I think this is the only way, but the right way for me.

I want my children to feel unpressed to make the choices that a right for them, with a critical mind. I hope to encourage this, but don't feel in any way we can control it. It will usually just blow up in your face









I agree, Hesperia.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
I don't have a dog in this fight. But, I did learn in sociology class that the pinking of lips and rouge was to make oneself appear younger/aka more fertile..

I know this is slightly off topic, but....

A long while ago I watched a show on Discovery channel hosted by John Clease (I hope I spelled his name right). That show was about the human body, sexual attraction, biological reasons behind social connections/mating, and attraction to others. Well, the red lips (makeup, lipstick) and flushed cheeks (from blush/rouge) was attributed to simulating how blood flows to a woman's face making her flushed during orgasm/sexual arousal. Therefore, if a woman puts on makeup, she will appear in a constant state of arousal. (or at least until she washes the makeup off). Nothing about red lips implied youth on this discovery show.

I just thought I'd throw that interesting tidbit into the discussion. Carry on.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

And again I really take issue with body hair= all grown up. Not every man or woman has noticeable body hair. What does that say about them? Men who don't grow much or any facial hair get enough flack for not being "manly" from society, IMO. I'd rather not add to it by insisting body hair is an indicator of woman/manliness.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Not selling it. I am simply saying that in society body hair= gross. And even men are catching on. It's not body hair= "too old for me"









It simply isn't true that body hair = gross in our society. Women are the ones who shave underarms and legs, not men. It is highly gendered.

And I wouldn't worry about some sort of discrimination against people who happen to be hairless originating from those of us who don't shave our pits.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Shaving is not about mere hygiene or men would be the ones to shave their bodies. They make more hair generally and have a stronger smell. Not buying the hygiene argument!

My husband shaves his pits, because he hates the smell.

My ex shaved "down under" to keep it cooler (he was a chef and it got HOT). Male bikers and swimmers shave to be more aerodynamic.

When I was pregnant, I lost all my leg hair. I don't know if it's a normal occurrence with pregnant women, but if so, it could toss out the shaved legs=childlike theory.

After all, there are a lot of secondary traits related to pregnancy that men (and women) like (ex- big boobs, full thick hair, etc...). The first "sex symbol" (the Venus of Willendorf) is a pregnant woman.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamieCole* 
So I am genuinely curious...

Do those of you who feel that shaving for women is conforming to male ideals of beauty and infantilizing, oppressive, etc, how do you feel about other grooming issues that can be lumped into the "beautification for others, not ones self" category?

Do you feel the same way about trimming fingernails? Painting fingernails? Removing ear wax? Cutting hair on your head into a style or trimming it at all for that matter? Coloring your hair? Wearing clothing? Wearing deodorant?

Do those of you who do not shave do any of the above? If so, how is it different?

All of those things are "changing" the natural way our bodies look or smell. Where is the line between shaving vs. other grooming?

Sincerely just curious.

I think some of the things you listed are about hygiene, others are about enhancing attractiveness.
Removing ear wax I'd put in hygiene side.
Trimming fingernails, I think that's a mix of hygiene (if they're too long they can collect more dirt) or practicality if long nails get in the way, but fingernail painting, I'd put in attraction category.

Cutting hair for ease of maintenance is different than styling for looks. Coloring hair is not in any way a hygiene issue.. it's all about appearances.
Wearing clothing can go on both lists, depending upon why an individual chooses their particular clothing.
Deodorant may be simply about odor control, either for the wearer or to spare those around them who have sensitive noses.
Deodorant sprays/perfumes I find intrusive and allergy inducing and repulsive, yet others find them pretty smelling. I'd prefer a clean, sweaty smell than a chemical concoction, personally. (Yes, I think a person can be clean and sweaty simultaneously ... especially if they are healthy and haven't polluted their body with toxic elements).

What was my point? I forgot. Oh yeah, some things are done for hygienic reasons, other for appearances ...ETA: ... or personal physical comfort.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i watched a documentary once about how lips, breasts, butts, knees etc all look the way they do b/c the butt (i think it was the butt) is the most alluring part of the body ... something about hips, butts, and child birth...breasts... and well.. i forget i was like 12 when i saw this on tv while we were on vacation .... but anyways it was the post about fertility that made me think of it.

apparently the physical things that men look for in a woman are all signs that she is fertile and able to reproduce.

and noo mags... goodness! I am not trying to say all men are pedophiles (and i hope no one else is either) i think men probably look for the same things in a woman that they have since whenever people started looking at each other.







i don't think a cultural ideal can change the things that have been a part of our species for millennia. and actually there are people and groups who are trying to get our media and culture to let go of the super thin curve free 'ideal' and embrace the many different types of bodies most women have... curves and all.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
And again I really take issue with body hair= all grown up. Not every man or woman has noticeable body hair. What does that say about them? Men who don't grow much or any facial hair get enough flack for not being "manly" from society, IMO. I'd rather not add to it by insisting body hair is an indicator of woman/manliness.

If I remember right, I think there are parts of Asia where women actually buy "wigs" for their pubic regions.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
This is so flipping me out! By 12 I had forgotten what I looked like without pubic hair.







:

But yeah I do feel like a child when I shave down there. It also isn't comfortable to me. I do keep it well trimmed though. Though honestly the women I know who shave down below whom I have asked all said it was gross not to to them what with everything else going on down there.

yeah i had pubic hair way before i was twelve. i don't understand the trimming thing.. i have heard people say this before but i didn't want to ask about it at the time. i don't really get how you trim it. if i shave it is all the way....how do you get an in between?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
and noo mags... goodness! I am not trying to say all men are pedophiles (and i hope no one else is either) i think men probably look for the same things in a woman that they have since whenever people started looking at each other.

Yes I agree with your latter statement but come on when one says that women are pushed to shave to look like a little kid to be more attractive to men it sounds like we're calling them pedophiles at heart, does it not?

re: pubic trimming- ok this might be TMI so let me try and phrase this veeeeeery carefully, for women who have a lot (*raises hand*) it's like trimming the hair on your head. Take the extra length and cut it.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i don't think a cultural ideal can change the things that have been a part of our species for millennia. and actually there are people and groups who are trying to get our media and culture to let go of the super thin curve free 'ideal' and embrace the many different types of bodies most women have... curves and all.

I seem to remember seeing some documentary where they did a study that showed that, when shown women (or drawings, I can't remember) of various sizes, women chose ultra-thin physiques as ideal, but men chose curvier physiques as ideal. So I think you're right -- eons of evolutionary preference can't be toppled in a couple of decades by societal shifts. Thank goodness!


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
yeah i had pubic hair way before i was twelve. i don't understand the trimming thing.. i have heard people say this before but i didn't want to ask about it at the time. i don't really get how you trim it. if i shave it is all the way....how do you get an in between?









Well, according to my husband, women are just as different in amount, length, coverage of pubic hair as they are in other ways. I really had only my own body as a base of reference. It was enlightening to me to find out that some women have so much hair they can actually trim it with a scissors, or even brush their pubic hair. I truly had no idea. I remember trying on bathing suits and figured if hair was escaping from the bottom of my suit, the suit was faulty, not I and I chose a different, more modest style. It never occurred to me to trim my pubic hair. I had a boyfriend who commented on and suggested I trim my pubic hair while in a bathing suit and against my better judgment, agreed to it. I regretted that almost immediately when I got razor burn and couldn't imagine how anyone would purposefully, repeatedly give themselves that level of discomfort instead of buying a better swimsuit. But then later I learned not everyone gets that kind of reaction to shaving.


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## mama_Agnieszka (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't shave my legs or armpits but I do get my chin waxed because I get very dark hair there and it makes me very self-conscious to have a mini-beard... And that's essentially what I plan to tell my daughters - if it's something that makes you very uncomfortable and you can't find another way to regain that comfort, than do what will help you feel good in your own skin. I know, it's not perfect. I struggled with the decision myself - and I beat myself up for the longest time for having done anything at all with the white fuzz I had on my chin to begin with! So, I will tell them that too - if you start shaving or waxing, the hair grows in darker and thicker, regardless of what the pros tell you, I can vouch for it with my own experience.

We do live tv-free but my sisters and mother shave, and my girls are around them... some day, they'll ask my why I don't...


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
WThe feminist view of shaving has also been around a _lot_ longer than the trend to shaving or otherwise depilating the genitals. When I was younger, when people talked about women shaving, there was no doubt they were talking about armpits and legs...not the genital area. This is really quite new. I've also been shaving my genitals for...almost 30 years, and they've _never_ looked anything like the genitals of a pre-pubescent girl. That's not why I do it. (It's also not why I prefer less/no pubic hair on my partner...although it's obviously his choice, just as shaving is my choice.) In fact, the first time I did it, I'd never heard of it being done at all - I just thought I'd like it, and I did/do.

Yeah that. I shaved myself entirely in tenth grade, well before I'd ever seen another woman's genitals, aside from my mother's (definitely unshaven). I wanted to and also found it much easier to manage AF that way, pads or tampons.

As a sexually active adult, I definitely think it enhances intercourse (and oral sex) _for me_.

I'd agree it is a newer "general public" trend. I once read a stash of men's magazines and the models were unshaven well into the nineties. My own Mom had never even heard of it in 2004 when my sisters and I had a particularly intimate discussion with her.


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## Hesperia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:

And again I really take issue with body hair= all grown up. Not every man or woman has noticeable body hair. What does that say about them? Men who don't grow much or any facial hair get enough flack for not being "manly" from society, IMO. I'd rather not add to it by insisting body hair is an indicator of woman/manliness.
My DH just today said he wished he had more hair on his legs, so he could feel more comfortable wearing shorts. That is sad. I think is okay to push societies comfort levels on manliness/womanliness. The other day I saw a business woman, all dressed up, nails done, hair coloured, well tailored suit jacket with cleavage, and lovely hair legs!
















To me it boils down to being comfortable with who you are, however you choose to dress it.
My hairy pits do make a statement, and I want them to. I want people to see them and think, right, women also have hair. I want under arm hair to be more 'normal', or leg hair, or any hair. We are humans, we grow hair. Some a lot, and some a little. At the end of the day, we need to be happy with how we present ourselves to the world.

I feel MOST womanly with an arm pit full of beautiful hair, long leg hair and a beautifully somewhat bushy bush!

As for hygiene, oh man, I smell when I shave. Really badly.

Thanks for listening, just had a little chat there


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Very interesting discussion - made me & dh think a bit.

My mom didn't/doesn't shave. I still chose to shave (much to her disappointment) when I was a young teen. I do kind of think that regardless of what you say or do she will at some point want to experiment with shaving. Whether she sticks with it or not will probably depend more on what she feels is right for her.

Personally I only sporadically shave my underarms & legs (never my pubes). But honestly I MUCH prefer when dh shaves his face & quite frankly I'd be pretty happy if he ever chose to shave other areas (although that will never happen & that's fine too).

The pubic shaving does kind of creep me out & I do feel it is more to do with all the oversexualized images we are constantly bombarded with. Really, even 20 years ago it was not often done & now it is oddly mainstream.


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## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Eh, in parenting I think it's okay to be and offer myself, as a person, to the job.

Kind of OT (not very), but WOW I think I need to write this down & hang it on my fridge!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It simply isn't true that body hair = gross in our society. Women are the ones who shave underarms and legs, not men. It is highly gendered.

The specifics are highly gendered, but the "body hair = gross" thing does exist, in both directions. I've heard women express disgust - loudly - when a man with a hairy back or shoulders, or even an unusually hairy chest or legs, walks by them at a pool or on a beach. I've heard all kinds of jokes about the "gorillas" with "too much" body hair. I even heard a girl brag once - and I hope she was joking - about subsituting Nair (or Neet - something like that) for a guy's sunscreen at the beach, because he was "so disgusting". Do guys get treated as if they're filthy for not shaving their pits? No - it's not something most men do in our culture (personally, I kind of wish they did sometimes...having wet pit hair on my cheek when I try to snuggle up is kind of gross). But, they definitely run into the idea that body hair is disgusting in other ways. On the other hand, they also run into the idea that _not_ having body hair makes them less manly...because a lack of body hair is considered feminine...not infantile, but feminine.


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## Hesperia (Sep 3, 2007)

RE: trimming.

Same for your nose hair, the hair on your head, or your armpits. Sometimes the feeling of the hair being too long can becoming irritating (the back of my neck, yuck!) and you choose to trim it back a little.

Every few months I trim my pubic hair and armpit hair back a little bit. Maybe an inch or so.

Every week or so I trim my bangs, because they grow so quickly!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seaheroine* 
Yeah that. I shaved myself entirely in tenth grade, well before I'd ever seen another woman's genitals, aside from my mother's (definitely unshaven). I wanted to and also found it much easier to manage AF that way, pads or tampons.

That was exactly why I did it, in 8th grade. I was so grossed out by the hair at that time of month. Once I tried it, I found it was much more comfortable that way, and I never went back.

Quote:

As a sexually active adult, I definitely think it enhances intercourse (and oral sex) _for me_.
Likewise.

Quote:

I'd agree it is a newer "general public" trend. I once read a stash of men's magazines and the models were unshaven well into the nineties. My own Mom had never even heard of it in 2004 when my sisters and I had a particularly intimate discussion with her.
Yeah - I was quite taken aback when I suddenly realized that shaving the pubes had becomes some big "sexy" thing. I had no idea the custom had becomes so...mainstream.


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
I used to color my hair but only "crazy" colors to subvert the dominant paradigm

What does that actually mean?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I am not a very hairy person. I still like to shave every once in awhile, but only after I let my leg hair or pit hair grow out a bit (which takes a long time for me). I really don't care what men think (I'm obese so a lot of appearance-oriented guys wouldn't be all over me suddenly if I was smooth as a baby's butt anyway), I just think it's fun to cut off the hairs! I like popping zits, squeezing blackheads, and digging out ingrown hairs too! My favorite hairs are the ones that grow back under the skin but not coiled up so it's just a line under your skin that you can squeeze and then pull out the stick straight hair and then yank it out!

So for me, if I am smooth it's because I just was having fun grooming. I do tend to trim the pubic hairs a bit right before my period (with an electric razor with an attachment that keeps me from shaving too close) because I get HUGE clots and it HURTS if I have to pull them out of long hair. Maybe if I didn't have the belly roll I would do that more often, it's kind of meh for me because I don't get the same visceral/visual pleasure of grooming an area that I have to bend over to see well as opposed to my legs or pits.

How's that for a weirdo answer!







I am a feminist, I enjoy men...but to hell with either of those categories of folks who get between a Groomy Girl and her grooming pleasures!

ETA: I was so excited to find that I had a few dark hairs growing on my upper lip (at the corners of my mouth, maybe when I'm an old lady I can grow a moustache like you see on old Chinese Imperial court paintings!). I LOVE waxing that, it's so FUN to see the little hairs on the wax afterwards, unfortunately I only get to rip them out every few months.


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

This is all so interesting (the wondering of why red lips are more attractive than pale ones etc).

I wanted to add that it took me a long time to grow pubic hair and my mom doesn't have any. After two pregnancies I finally have a bush! So now I trim it for bathing suits and comfort. Just take scizzors, pull out the hair and trim it. Be careful when close to the bits!

My mom who doesn't grow pubic hair (hi mom!) also never shaved her armpits or legs. The legs didn't mean anything as they were almost hairless but she always had furry underarms. Never wore a bra or makeup either. I chose to shave my underarms and I wear makeup (and a bra). So while I chose differently, I also didn't think it was a requirement to being a lady.

I like how people can choose what is right for them. For kids, they should be able to choose what is most appealing for themselves as they get older.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Oh, I got so excited talking about grooming I forgot the other part of the question.

My DD seems to have inherited her dad's hairness instead of my non-hairness. However, she loooves grooming as much as me. So I hope that she will have fun with it. Assuming her love of picking and grooming continues as she gets older, I wonder if she will enjoy it as well. My mom got me my own electric razor and grooming kit at 12, not because I was hairy but because she was tired of my stealing her tweezers and other implements to tweeze my knees/arms because I liked doing it, I think she was grossed out knowing I was pulling hair out of my legs and armpits with the tool she used for her face!

So anyway, I hope that my DD's interest in shaving, if any, will be from that more enjoyable perspective instead of "I will be gross if I don't."


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Yes I agree with your latter statement but come on when one says that women are pushed to shave to look like a little kid to be more attractive to men it sounds like we're calling them pedophiles at heart, does it not?

re: pubic trimming- ok this might be TMI so let me try and phrase this veeeeeery carefully, for women who have a lot (*raises hand*) it's like trimming the hair on your head. Take the extra length and cut it.

ahh ok i get what you are saying. your talking about the idea that women are pushed to look like children so that they will be more attractive to men. i was thinking more like this. our cultural (and personally i think it is has a lot to do with advertising, media, etc) has this widely accepted 'ideal' or a standard for what women should aspire too. she is thin, generally tall, has medium breasts, no hair, no hips, etc this image is plastered all over every magazine, tv, CD, etc... heck it is even plastered on bill boards. the target audience for this kind of thing is kids and teens. they see razor adds, beauty products, princesses, etc. and it gets worse as they get older. this is what we are told over and over again is attractive.

i think we have sort of an odd situation where little girls want to dress like adults and wear make up and such and teens and young adults feel like something is wrong with them when their body starts changing and they gain a bit of weight, grow in their hips and chest etc. its supposed to happen... but it is banged into your head that its wrong. i imagine that just as the girls and women in our culture are told that they need these things to become this ideal woman boys and men are told that it is what they should want in a woman. the funny thing is that if you take a look at anything really marketed towards men the women in the advertisements usually have butts and boobs.

sort of on topic, have you seen transformers? its a good example of what i am trying to say








i loved the movie but it was a sexist car wreck.


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## moaningminny (Dec 31, 2007)

I shave my 'pits and legs - if I don't shave my armpits every day or two I find I smell worse. My legs get shaved every few days, sometimes more in the summer.

I do trim my pubic hair, and I shaved all of it off one time and that was enough. I really, really felt like I looked like a prepubescent girl. It made me feel icky, if that makes any sense. I haven't done it since, and don't plan on doing it again any time soon.

To each their own.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

if i don't shave my arm pits i get ridiculous sweat stains if i wear anything but a tank top







it was never really an issue until college.. no deodorant made a difference if i went a few days without shaving.. it was really embarrassing.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Tigerchild: you're 9:52 post was like getting sadistically tickled...I was laughing so hard it hurt! Not laughing at you, by the way...it was just your unrepentant delivery that killed me!

I also agree with your subsequent post regarding your DD's potential future shaving...that she do it not because she will be perceived as gross by other people if she doesn't shave, but because it is a personal preference.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
ahh ok i get what you are saying. your talking about the idea that women are pushed to look like children so that they will be more attractive to men. i was thinking more like this. our cultural (and personally i think it is has a lot to do with advertising, media, etc) has this widely accepted 'ideal' or a standard for what women should aspire too. she is thin, generally tall, has medium breasts, no hair, no hips, etc this image is plastered all over every magazine, tv, CD, etc... heck it is even plastered on bill boards. the target audience for this kind of thing is kids and teens. they see razor adds, beauty products, princesses, etc. and it gets worse as they get older. this is what we are told over and over again is attractive.

i think we have sort of an odd situation where little girls want to dress like adults and wear make up and such and teens and young adults feel like something is wrong with them when their body starts changing and they gain a bit of weight, grow in their hips and chest etc. its supposed to happen... but it is banged into your head that its wrong. i imagine that just as the girls and women in our culture are told that they need these things to become this ideal woman boys and men are told that it is what they should want in a woman. the funny thing is that if you take a look at anything really marketed towards men the women in the advertisements usually have butts and boobs.

sort of on topic, have you seen transformers? its a good example of what i am trying to say







i loved the movie but it was a sexist car wreck.

I agree with what you are saying here!







But I was referring to the actual comments about shaving= being child-like for men.

And I have yet to see any of the Transformers movies though I have been wondering what is up with the Megan Fox love....


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
Tigerchild: you're 9:52 post was like getting sadistically tickled...I was laughing so hard it hurt! Not laughing at you, by the way...it was just your unrepentant delivery that killed me!

Have you seen the massive zit popping thread here? That is like the most awesome thread in the whole universe, I've never been able to read it without laughing so hard that tears stream down my face.







I was actually contemplating fading away from MDC awhile back, because my kids are not little anymore and I felt that it was more oriented towards new/parenting little ones people--but I saw that thread and knew that MDC was still my people!







:

See, now I'm really getting off topic!









I've just always been confused when people seem to think that shaving always has to be about appearances/cosmetic stuff. I mean, I know that it is for most people, but it's not like there is not a huge amount of women who love to "pick" at stuff, messing around with body hair that people don't get to see all that much of AND does really cool things like give you ingrown hairs to play with seems to be a natural extension of that too!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Popping zits is like my favorite pastime.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

Have you seen the massive zit popping thread here?
Ummm, no. But I must say, though, that I have observed primates in captivity (and ones in the wild on video) who are constantly grooming each other. I mean, they spend hours picking through each other's hair hoping to find that one little bug or whatever it is they are looking for.

Okay, I'm off-topic too, but your posts were certainly a welcome sight in a week full of seriousness and defensiveness. Thanks!


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## purplemoon (Sep 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Popping zits is like my favorite pastime.









Popping my dh's blackheads is mine. He has to beat me off of him when I see some crop up. Is it weird I like grooming others? And cleaning my kids ears is fun for me too.

ETA: after the last post, yes, I feel like a chimp doing it too.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I shave - but I wish I never started shaving my legs. As for other areas shaving seemed to fix body odor for me







I don't know if there is like something wrong with me or whatever, but for whatever reason if I don't shave then I just don't smell very fresh within 20 minutes, but as long as I'm shaven then all is good. probably tmi, but thought it might be something to keep in mind like if you meet someone who likes to shave. For me it has nothing to do with what "the man" thinks about me lol, so if you do end up with a child who shaves maybe it will be because its something that in one way or another makes them feel more comfortable in their skin and has nothing to do with how it looks in other people's eyes. What I'm saying is, they may still share your values on the male-bigboo-sex kitten thing, but shave for reasons that have nothing to do with appearance. Just a bit of hope from a shaver for all the right reasons to non shavers for all the right reasons


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I like popping zits, squeezing blackheads, and digging out ingrown hairs too! My favorite hairs are the ones that grow back under the skin but not coiled up so it's just a line under your skin that you can squeeze and then pull out the stick straight hair and then yank it out!
I get HUGE clots and it HURTS if I have to pull them out of long hair. it's so FUN to see the little hairs on the wax afterwards

you sound just like me, thanks for making me feel normal. I was too shy to say about the clumps in the hair thing, but since you mentioned it first, I'll say, thats why I started keeping it short there in the first place. Even as a teen I was also a very dischargy so it wasnt even just during my period it was all the time getting clumps and it hurt trying to get them off and to be honest I just want to go to the bathroom, wipe, and go... not sit around pulling stuff out of my pubic hair, if I didnt have that problem (and the BO problem) I'd probably feel different. I'd still pop blackheads and pimples and ingrown hairs though, because its fun to watch... I know a lot of girls who like that though, so maybe we aren't too weird?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplemoon* 
Popping my dh's blackheads is mine. He has to beat me off of him when I see some crop up. Is it weird I like grooming others? And cleaning my kids ears is fun for me too.

ETA: after the last post, yes, I feel like a chimp doing it too.

Yeah I actually pop DH's zits/black heads. I am lucky because he works in the heat and sweats all day














He has beaten me off more than once. Or twice. Or a million times. I have also popped my little sis' face. It has gotten to the point where people comes to me (friends and family) and say "so I have this zit..."







They say I am really good and keeping their zits at bay. I should start a zit popping business or something.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I also love to peel off people's dead skin when they get sunburn, and I scratch all the dandruff on my husbands head lol. I'm starting to feel like a monkey







:

1littlebit - just read your post, glad im not alone!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Yeah I actually pop DH's zits/black heads. I am lucky because he works in the heat and sweats all day














He has beaten me off more than once. Or twice. Or a million times. I have also popped my little sis' face. It has gotten to the point where people comes to me (friends and family) and say "so I have this zit..."







They say I am really good and keeping their zits at bay. I should start a zit popping business or something.

Can I get a job? My husband used to let me pop them all the time, now he wont. I wait until he's sleeping I try to do it tactfully so I dont wake him up


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Peeling skin is so fun! And I am a scab picker, too. And ear picker with my kids. They hate it but it's total reflex.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I agree, Hesperia.

I know this is slightly off topic, but....

A long while ago I watched a show on Discovery channel hosted by John Clease (I hope I spelled his name right). That show was about the human body, sexual attraction, biological reasons behind social connections/mating, and attraction to others. Well, the red lips (makeup, lipstick) and flushed cheeks (from blush/rouge) was attributed to simulating how blood flows to a woman's face making her flushed during orgasm/sexual arousal. Therefore, if a woman puts on makeup, she will appear in a constant state of arousal. (or at least until she washes the makeup off). Nothing about red lips implied youth on this discovery show.

I just thought I'd throw that interesting tidbit into the discussion. Carry on.









interesting. I have very red lips that make me look even paler then I am and I just look bad in red - makes my skin look blotchy, always has since I was a kid - and so I put foundation on my lips to make them look pale. No one cares, I don't leave the house, I don't do it for anyone but me.

In fact I care so little I live in sweatpants and oversized t-shirts and rarely do my hair or make up, just like the pale lips...


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
Can I get a job? My husband used to let me pop them all the time, now he wont. I wait until he's sleeping I try to do it tactfully so I dont wake him up









My husband goes in spurts. But he inevitably ends up in front of me after looking in the mirror and I know what he wants and just laugh. When I don't pop his face he gets zits and blackheads all over within a few days/weeks. He tells everyone he didn't have clear skin until he met me.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Peeling skin is so fun! And I am a scab picker, too. And ear picker with my kids. They hate it but it's total reflex.

i'll see your ear picking and scab picking and raise you nose picking. I pick the hard buggars out of my kids nose - and mine - you know the ones that get stuck to your nostril hair. They do not come out when you blow. Yeah, I'm a nose picker. Don't worry, I do it in the privacy of my own home lol


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Speaking of feeling like a chimp.... (ok so I am about to gross y'all out- you ready?)

When I was a junior in high school my charter school had this outbreak of lice and I would sit and pick them out of my little sister's hair and friend's hair all the time. I was the most thorough so they'd bring me the Rid and nit comp and I'd go through their hair with it and then pick them out by hand (we had some baaaad cases because the kids weren't sent home for it).

What can I say? I am really really odd.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
i'll see your ear picking and scab picking and raise you nose picking. I pick the hard buggars out of my kids nose - and mine - you know the ones that get stuck to your nostril hair. They do not come out when you blow. Yeah, I'm a nose picker. Don't worry, I do it in the privacy of my own home lol

Me too. Especially my middle child who seems to get them all the time and is unable to breath with them. I can hear her coming most of the time.

ETA- and you may have saved me from being alone in the gross factor with my lice picking!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
My husband goes in spurts. But he inevitably ends up in front of me after looking in the mirror and I know what he wants and just laugh. When I don't pop his face he gets zits and blackheads all over within a few days/weeks. He tells everyone he didn't have clear skin until he met me.

see I used to keep my husands skin clear and now its a mess and he doesn't understand its because he doesn't let me pick at it anymore! and im a good picker too - I never leave scars. My favorite are the black heads that look like your average black head, but you pop it and its like the legnth of someones intenstines or something it just keeps coming out in insane amounts.

there is so something wrong with me. I cant believe im talking about this on mothering.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Speaking of feeling like a chimp.... (ok so I am about to gross y'all out- you ready?)

When I was a junior in high school my charter school had this outbreak of lice and I would sit and pick them out of my little sister's hair and friend's hair all the time. I was the most thorough so they'd bring me the Rid and nit comp and I'd go through their hair with it and then pick them out by hand (we had some baaaad cases because the kids weren't sent home for it).

What can I say? I am really really odd.

when my cat gets fleas I pick them out of her and crush them. I'm going to be a flea or a pimple in my next life.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Grossest derail ever.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
see I used to keep my husands skin clear and now its a mess and he doesn't understand its because he doesn't let me pick at it anymore! and im a good picker too - I never leave scars. My favorite are the black heads that look like your average black head, but you pop it and its like the legnth of someones intenstines or something it just keeps coming out in insane amounts.

there is so something wrong with me. I cant believe im talking about this on mothering.









We are totally going to be talked about for this.

But yeah I am the same way! I categorize zits and blackheads too. I know all the different kinds and which I like to pop best.









I also never leave scars. I believe it's my technique but who knows. We are just natural born pickers and poppers you and I!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
when my cat gets fleas I pick them out of her and crush them. I'm going to be a flea or a pimple in my next life.

Oh I've never had the pleasure of fleas. We didn't have many animals. Hmmm I wonder what that'd be like.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 







We are totally going to be talked about for this.

But yeah I am the same way! I categorize zits and blackheads too. I know all the different kinds and which I like to pop best.










I also never leave scars. I believe it's my technique but who knows. We are just natural born pickers and poppers you and I!

you have me in stitches over here! Maybe I lost the sense or normal a long time ago, but at least I'm not alone!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Oh I've never had the pleasure of fleas. We didn't have many animals. Hmmm I wonder what that'd be like.

The best way is to get them between two fingernails.

And...I think I'm going to bail out, because this is way OT...and getting kind of gross.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Oh I've never had the pleasure of fleas
didn't have many animals. Hmmm I wonder what that'd be like.

it's not as fun to be honest - that one I do more out of neccessity. Our cat just can't seem to stay in the house and I don't make her, but I don't want the fleas living with us. Everyone always says when you see a flea you will have a flea problem within days or weeks - but my cat gets a couple fleas a week and I get them off her and we've never had a flea problem aside from the few I get off her. But yea, not really fun, just gross, and sometimes they try to hop away







:


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
when my cat gets fleas I pick them out of her and crush them. I'm going to be a flea or a pimple in my next life.

omg my best friend /former roommate used to do this to her dog. she would sit there and pick the 'fleasies' off his belly. we used to compete to see who could find the most.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

sorry I did answer the original question I got carried away when I realized there were mre people like me. Perhaps a spin off thread would have been more appropriate. To the OP I am sorry for taking part in derailing your thread! And I think its really awesome you thinking about this issue and even though I shave for personal comfort I agree with your reasons for not shaving and hold the same beliefs, I just shave for myself.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
The best way is to get them between two fingernails.

And...I think I'm going to bail out, because this is way OT...and getting kind of gross.

That's the best way to kill lice and pop their eggs too!

And sorry folks







It's just so nice to find a kindred spirit!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
sorry I did answer the original question I got carried away when I realized there were mre people like me. Perhaps a spin off thread would have been more appropriate. To the OP I am sorry for taking part in derailing your thread! And I think its really awesome you thinking about this issue and even though I shave for personal comfort I agree with your reasons for not shaving and hold the same beliefs, I just shave for myself.









:









Moving on now.... (but do let me know if there is a spin off)


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i like threads like this. they make me feel normal... other people squash fleas, pop zits, and pick their kids ear wax


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

i like threads like this. they make me feel normal... other people squash fleas, pop zits, and pick their kids ear wax
Sorry, I didn't admit to anything.


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## kristi96 (Mar 31, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I long for a world where women truely feel beautiful exactly as they are, where other people don't put emphasis on these kinds of things, where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)


I intended to just read this thread as I found it interesting....until I saw this post. I shave because I want to and because I enjoy it. So yes I do shave for myself and only myself. My DH could care less if I shaved or didn't shave. When I was pregnant I didn't shave anything but my armpits and he didn't make single comment about it. As soon as I could see my legs and other areas I shave ASAP. To be honest I felt gross and dirty with all that hair on me. Just because a man or woman doesn't shave doesn't mean they are dirty its just the way it made me feel. As for my own DD when she is old enough she will decide that for herself. I think you should just be honest about your feelings when your DD is old enough to understand.


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## trancechylde (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Grossest derail ever.

Yep am pregnant and actually starting to feel a little queasy. urp.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

I just saw this post from the OP:

I long for a world where women truely feel beautiful exactly as they are, where other people don't put emphasis on these kinds of things, where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread

I wanted to say that what you said was not a supportive comment. You just undermined a lot of women here. If we care about women and their self esteem, how does it hlp to say "I think some women are liars who say they shave for themselves but they don't" As I said, I have body odor really fast if I dont shave. I dont have to shave every day. My hair is never done, and I live dressed in oversized sweatpants and tank tops or t shirts - often times with all kinds of miscellaneous stains on them. Anyone who knows yu will probably tell you I could afford to care about my appearance a little more, but I don't care what they think. I don't shave every day because I don't care about stubble or even visible hair, but I shave on the day it's long enough to cause body odor (I will shower every day and not smell at all but its always on the 3rd day that if I don't shave then I could shower every couple hours and still smell - not right after the shower but shortly there after.

and *I* don't want to be around someone who smells bad. So I shave. For me. I'm not going to "flame you" but it was your post that was unsupportive (of women in general) As a shaver I support the intention of this thread. I dn't support some women acting better then other women though. We had to deal with men acting better then us for a long time, which seems to be something you understood, but not we have to deal with our own kind thinking they are superior, simply because they don't shave? It's other women who oppress us now, more so then men.

If you want to be supportive of women in general don't be just as bad as men and put us down. Women who shave are women too.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamieCole* 
So I am genuinely curious...

Do those of you who feel that shaving for women is conforming to male ideals of beauty and infantilizing, oppressive, etc, how do you feel about other grooming issues that can be lumped into the "beautification for others, not ones self" category?

Do you feel the same way about trimming fingernails? Painting fingernails? Removing ear wax? Cutting hair on your head into a style or trimming it at all for that matter? Coloring your hair? Wearing clothing? Wearing deodorant?

Do those of you who do not shave do any of the above? If so, how is it different?

All of those things are "changing" the natural way our bodies look or smell. Where is the line between shaving vs. other grooming?

Sincerely just curious.

I cut my nails because if I don't I scratch my baby, that has nothing to do with beautification.
I don't paint anything on my body and find that whole practice odd.
I get the wax out of my ear because it itches when it's there.
I have dread locks, I don't trim, style, color or do anything else to my hair.
I wear clothing because I don't want to be nude for many reasons that have nothing to do with beauty.
I wear deodorant because I don't like the smell of sweat.
I DON"T shave because I feel like it is something women are forced into in my society and I refuse to conform to that. It's either shave or be an outcast who gets dirty looks and rude comments. It _really_ not the same as not painting your fingernails. I am not against shaving at all, I am just against it for me. I also wish that women in this country were free to choose _not_ to shave without being looked down on for it and I think that if more of us just stopped shaving we would get there a lot faster.








ETA: I also feel that women are forced into wearing make-up so I refuse that as well. This is all from a girl who used to take two hours getting ready to go to the grocery store. I would NOT leave the house without my hair and make-up done and an outfit that I spent an hour choosing and my legs SHAVEN. I did this because I felt that I was disgusting if I didn't. That is what I would like to see die in this country. If women _want_ to do that for absolutely no reason other than they enjoy it that is fine by me, it's the women who feel they have no choice or do is without any thinking at all that make me sad.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't think it's fair to expect the OP to make no comments about shaving as they are 'unsupportive to women.' She is a woman, I am a woman, we all grew up with this expectation that we should shave. We decided how we feel about it, and we don't do it. YMMV. But we all have a relationship to this idea that we must shave as women, and so we all are entitled to our opinions about it.

As for grooming, I do hygiene stuff and I have what I think is a cool/funky hairdo, that is very low maintenance coz I am lazy. I like to look nice, but for me that doesn't include shaving hair that grows naturally on my body, that men are not expected to shave and women in some other cultures do not shave. That I don't like, so I don't do it.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Re: Trimming- I have a lovely bikini-line trimmer, but it works on the entire region. It's like a very gentle beard trimmer.

It's great, bc my pubes drive me crazy and get caught in my panties. They get long and the growth line extends to my inner thighs. If I didn't manage them, I'd never be able to wear a swim suit (unless it was the shorts style).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
interesting. I have very red lips that make me look even paler then I am and I just look bad in red - makes my skin look blotchy, always has since I was a kid - and so I put foundation on my lips to make them look pale. No one cares, I don't leave the house, I don't do it for anyone but me.

In fact I care so little I live in sweatpants and oversized t-shirts and rarely do my hair or make up, just like the pale lips...









I can't do red lipstick either, but brownish burgandy really brings out my smile without making me look trampy or like a clown.

I'm a jeans and t-shit gal, but I enjoy light makeup...especially something to cover my undereye circles. I have very deep set eyes, and it really stands out when I don't get sleep (happens a lot w/ a teething LO). I'd rather hide the look than drink caffeine. Believe it or not hiding my tiredness helps me feel less tired.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't think it's fair to expect the OP to make no comments about shaving as they are 'unsupportive to women.' She is a woman, I am a woman, we all grew up with this expectation that we should shave. We decided how we feel about it, and we don't do it. YMMV. But we all have a relationship to this idea that we must shave as women, and so we all are entitled to our opinions about it.

As for grooming, I do hygiene stuff and I have what I think is a cool/funky hairdo, that is very low maintenance coz I am lazy. I like to look nice, but for me that doesn't include shaving hair that grows naturally on my body, that men are not expected to shave and women in some other cultures do not shave. That I don't like, so I don't do it.

Men *are* expected to shave. They shave their faces and necks every day. And don't tell me it's easier than doing our body hair. I see the ritual DH has to go through every day. It's a PITA.

It is also becoming popular for guys to trim/shave other parts of their bodies. I've known quite a few who shave their backs, dated a guy who shaved his pubes, and am married to a man who shaves his pits. Shaving/trimming the pubic region has become popular as it gives the illusion of a guy looking larger. A lot of guys get annoyed by their body hair.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

.


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## mags (May 4, 2004)

I haven't read the other responses. However, my mom never shaved (neither has my mil). Both are from Asian cultures and what is weird is that they have NO hair on their legs and very little on their arms, so never felt the need to shave (and neither one wears tank tops, so they don't feel the need to shave their armpits). I, on the otherhand look like a caveman, I think I got it from my dad's side. It was traumatic for me in jr high, having no clue that shaving was, "the norm" (also had the same exp when it came to bras, b/c my mother did NOT want to get me a bra and I found out that I needed a bra from girls at school that commented about it, and yes I DID need a bra, my mom just had no clue about American culture at all), and being told by ppl, "Wow, you really need to shave your legs." I have to say that I felt pressured to shave as a teen, but now as an adult, I DO shave, b/c I like the way I look better when I shave vs. when I don't shave. I don't shave in the winter, b/c nobody sees my hair, but in the summer, I shave my legs, arms (yes, I wasn't kidding you when I told you I am hairy, I am even more hairy than my DH!) and armpits, as well as finger and toes.

If I had a dd, I would let her know about shaving. HOWEVER, I would not MAKE her shave if she didn't want to. If she wanted to, I would help her get the supplies she needed. I would leave the decision up to her. Just from my own exp, I wouldn't NOT tell her about it or make it sounds like something bad, b/c it was just really embarrassing for me to have to find out about this kind of thing from peers rather than finding out about it from my own mom, who I feel should have been the one to tell me about it to begin with (same with the bra thing).


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I don't shave. If we ever get a daughter, I suppose it'll be up to her. But given that not-shaving is the norm in our house, that we homeschool, Cover our legs and don't wear sleeveless things for modesty reasons, and that media is limited, I don't imagine it becoming an issue until mid- to late teens.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Men shave their faces, yes, and women who have hair on our faces are VERY MUCH expected to shave them, to the point that you get crazy stares if you don't, people are absolutely shocked if women have facial hair. Women are expected to shave body hair much more than men are, I really don't see how you can argue otherwise, it's basic common knowledge.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
She is a woman, I am a woman, we all grew up with this expectation that we should shave. We decided how we feel about it, and we don't do it.

Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions about it. The statement that was unsupportive was "*And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not*."
now she sn't deciding how she feels about it, she is deciding how OTHER people feel about it. thats not supportive. IT doesn't help women progress to have other women say "yeah, well I think you are full of it and you're shaving because you are expected to"

because no, I am not shaving because I am expected to. I am shaving because if I don't I would have to shower 6 times a day. No deodorant has helped, Ive even tried men's deoderant (since they think men smell worse? lol) . But if if I shave then I can go the whole day WITHOUT deoderant and still not smell. Then I only have to shower once a day.

I have no problem with women who don't shave. I came in here totally supporting that. I liked this thread, I thought it was great







I don't think she shouldn't make comments about it. I just don't think its respectful to women to say she "believes in her heart" that these women aren't shaving for themselves. if she really cares about how people view women, she should view women in a good light as well. not try to imply she knows why they shave better than they do. that was the only thing I found unsupportive, and i think you can be suportive of women not shaving without belittling the women who do, many of us for hygeine reasons, but even if for other reason then who cares, its their choice.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
I cut my nails because if I don't I scratch my baby, that has nothing to do with beautification.
I don't paint anything on my body and find that whole practice odd.
I get the wax out of my ear because it itches when it's there.
I have dread locks, I don't trim, style, color or do anything else to my hair.
I wear clothing because I don't want to be nude for many reasons that have nothing to do with beauty.
I wear deodorant because I don't like the smell of sweat.
I DON"T shave because I feel like it is something women are forced into in my society and I refuse to conform to that. It's either shave or be an outcast who gets dirty looks and rude comments. It _really_ not the same as not painting your fingernails. I am not against shaving at all, I am just against it for me. I also wish that women in this country were free to choose _not_ to shave without being looked down on for it and I think that if more of us just stopped shaving we would get there a lot faster.








ETA: I also feel that women are forced into wearing make-up so I refuse that as well. This is all from a girl who used to take two hours getting ready to go to the grocery store. I would NOT leave the house without my hair and make-up done and an outfit that I spent an hour choosing and my legs SHAVEN. I did this because I felt that I was disgusting if I didn't. That is what I would like to see die in this country. If women _want_ to do that for absolutely no reason other than they enjoy it that is fine by me, it's the women who feel they have no choice or do is without any thinking at all that make me sad.

that is sad. I leave the house looking like something the cat dragged in all the time. if I'm clean thats all that matters. and honestly, with all these kids, sometimes I dont have enough consecutive free minutes to take a shower. If I don't smell bad and don't have the time, I'll skip it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
that is sad. I leave the house looking like something the cat dragged in all the time. if I'm clean thats all that matters. and honestly, with all these kids, sometimes I dont have enough consecutive free minutes to take a shower. If I don't smell bad and don't have the time, I'll skip it.

this is me too. but i only have one kid... i'm screwed when i have more


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slylives* 
What does that actually mean?

color hair to "subvert the dominant paradigm" means that you go out of your way to *not* play into beauty standards. You choose something that makes people think that you don't care about looking "pretty" because you don't. Your actions, in this case I was discussing "crazy" colored hair, points out that the expectation of engaging in "styling" to look more attractive in a conventional way is not appealing to you and you want the world to know that you will not buy into their set of beauty standards. (and yes i did have that much analysis of it at 13 when I shaved half my head and bleached a giant streak down the middle) it was my way of saying "I will never be able to look like the American image of a traditionally attractive girl, so ya know what, I'm going to run screaming from the image instead of trying to fit into that mold!"


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
it's not as fun to be honest - that one I do more out of neccessity. Our cat just can't seem to stay in the house and I don't make her, but I don't want the fleas living with us. Everyone always says when you see a flea you will have a flea problem within days or weeks - but my cat gets a couple fleas a week and I get them off her and we've never had a flea problem aside from the few I get off her. But yea, not really fun, just gross, and sometimes they try to hop away







:

Have you ever tried Frontline ? Works wonders for fleas and ticks. If just fleas are a problem, I recommend Advantage.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

Woah, body hair sure has caused quite a stir!
Well, to answer the OP... this is what I'd do:
Teach your child to be a critical consumer of ideas. Apply critical thinking to the messages in songs, commercials, books, etc. Ask questions about what our culture promotes as beauty and why. How have these ideas evolved? Look at what is considered beautiful in other cultures or in other times (women with beards tattooed on, plates pierced through their lips, feet bound, necks stretched).
Teach your child to love herself, including her body. Research why hair grows where it does at different times in our life. Celebrate her budding body hair: "Is that peach fuzz getting thicker on your legs? You're becoming a woman! Let's talk about the other changes going on in your body..."
Don't be a hypocrite. If you're preaching about leg hair while you're dying your grey hair, your child will pick up on it.
And after all that, don't be surprised if she wants to shave at puberty. If so, let her. Don't make her feel guilty for being insecure (if she's motivated by peer pressure), it wont help her or you. It is age appropriate for teens to try on different roles and personas then discard them. Allowing her to try out "girlie" girl may just show her how uncomfortable, expensive, time consuming, and unnatural the process is.
While our culture provides conflicting and often harmful messages to women about more than just beauty, you are here asking this question which means you're proactively seeking to teach her something better. From one hairy mama to another: Lighten up. The good thing (or bad depending on how you feel) about body hair is that it will grow back.








Recipe for great deodorant that still allows you to sweat:
Sprinkle about 1/8 tsp of baking soda into your hand. Add a few drops of water to liquify. Rub under arms. Simple, Cheap, and works on hairy underarms too!







:


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Men shave their faces, yes, and women who have hair on our faces are VERY MUCH expected to shave them, to the point that you get crazy stares if you don't, people are absolutely shocked if women have facial hair. Women are expected to shave body hair much more than men are, I really don't see how you can argue otherwise, it's basic common knowledge.


I have a second cousin (My mom's cousin) who has an excess of facial hair and long, long, long head hair. Her hair has starting turning white and is normally black. Her facial hair is extremely noticeable, not just a few hairs. It dives my mother absolutely nuts and my mom drives me nuts because I don't know why she gives a damn. She says she is embarrassed for her cousin, and thinks her cousin ought to bleach, pluck, wax, whatever it takes to get that hair off her face, especially (in my mother's words) because she owns and runs her own business (tax preparation) and is likely losing business because of it. My mom will never lose that personal investment in physical appearance. I have to correct and circumvent her comments already in regard to my daughters... 'oh, sophia has such skinny arms, I wish my arms looked like that'... I say, oh you want to look like you're two years old? Why do you care so much what your arms look like? Seriously, my mom drives me freaking batty with her constant remarks about appearance. It makes her come off as insecure and critical and snobby all at the same time.

ETA: I just remembered something... when I was 11 years old and she told me my legs were hairy and I needed to start shaving... she told me, do not shave above the knee because no guy needs to be touching above your knee so there will be no need to shave there. ..... *eyeroll smilie*


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
ETA: I just remembered something... when I was 11 years old and she told me my legs were hairy and I needed to start shaving... she told me, do not shave above the knee because no guy needs to be touching above your knee so there will be no need to shave there. ..... *eyeroll smilie*

Ha!









In the links I posted many pages back, the article talked about how there are both puritanical and hedonistic (that wasn't the word he used, but I can't remember it now) arguments for both shaving and for not shaving. Looks like your mom pulled out a puritanical argument for not shaving. Very interesting!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 








Recipe for great deodorant that still allows you to sweat:
Sprinkle about 1/8 tsp of baking soda into your hand. Add a few drops of water to liquify. Rub under arms. Simple, Cheap, and works on hairy underarms too!







:

I've tried this, and also baby powder, but without luck.








I've even tried eating differently, and taking pills designed to help with sweating. That didn't help either. I am blessed that there is something simple and effective I can do though - shave. and then I don't stink. and thats why I do it. And I see nothing wrong with people who don't shave, and I know they don't have the same smell issues I have, I'm just a smelly person lol... but im not if I shave.


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

Ocassionally I'll shave my legs (just whenever the fancy strikes, it could be every week or not for a year) and I usually shave my armpits when the hair gets to be pretty long just because it starts to get itchy. I don't shave anything else. If my daughters want to shave, that's their choice. Whatever floats their boat!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Don't be a hypocrite.

this is useful too, especially if you don't shave because you think it's something society expects that is disrespectful towards women - then you should also model being respectful towards women. let your child know that some women shave for other reasons aside from what men will think of them. dont raise them to be judgmental and unsupportive of women who shave and assume they only care about "the man". I cant imagine if my mom was a non-shaver who shared that with me. You want them to be able to think for themselves, realize that may include thinking separately from both you an society. Which is what I do. I don't shave or not shave because of what my mother said or because of what society says. I shave because I don't like to smell bad and I would not think highly of my mother if she acted like it was impossible for me to shave for any other reason then what other people think.

Because, even when it comes to smelling bad, I don't care if I smell bad to others either. I only care if I smell bad to myself. For all I know I stink all the time and just can't smell it.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hesperia* 
My DH just today said he wished he had more hair on his legs, so he could feel more comfortable wearing shorts. That is sad. I think is okay to push societies comfort levels on manliness/womanliness. The other day I saw a business woman, all dressed up, nails done, hair coloured, well tailored suit jacket with cleavage, and lovely hair legs!
















To me it boils down to being comfortable with who you are, however you choose to dress it.
My hairy pits do make a statement, and I want them to. I want people to see them and think, right, women also have hair. I want under arm hair to be more 'normal', or leg hair, or any hair. We are humans, we grow hair. Some a lot, and some a little. At the end of the day, we need to be happy with how we present ourselves to the world.

I feel MOST womanly with an arm pit full of beautiful hair, long leg hair and a beautifully somewhat bushy bush!

As for hygiene, oh man, I smell when I shave. Really badly.

Thanks for listening, just had a little chat there









Amen, sister!

I guess I wouldn't be so militant about it if people were more accepting of it and didn't use words like "gross" to describe body hair.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I just saw this post from the OP:

I long for a world where women truely feel beautiful exactly as they are, where other people don't put emphasis on these kinds of things, where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread

See, I find that statement so over-the-top sanctimonious that it goes past insulting into laughable. You think you know a group of women on the internet _even better than they know themselves_? Even if it is her "true belief," the OP seems intelligent enough to realize how that can come across as insulting.

I shave sometimes, when I have time and I feel like it. My husband certainly spends far more time shaving his bits than I do mine.

I will actually probably try to discourage DD from shaving as long as possible, because it's a PITA, but if she really wants to I will certainly help her! Ditto DS and shaving. And I'm sure we'll have a big pros and cons conversation about it, just as I plan to talk to both of my children about the reasons why DH and I do the things we do, and why they might feel differently, etc.

As far as the women shaving to please men, I just don't buy it. I have more of an issue with dresses, to be honest. They are harder to play in, but they can also be nice and cool in summer. That actually does bug me, and I can't figure out why in this day and age we still perpetuate that dresses and skirts are for GIRLS ONLY, at least in American society.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!

Women and girls have a higher standard for their beauty then men do.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Women and girls have a higher standard for their beauty then men do.

hmm...different standards, I'd agree with, but I'm not sure they're "higher".

DH thinks I'm beautiful just the way I am. The vast majority of the people who have ever commented negatively on my appearance are other women. So...whatever. I don't really care what anybody but dh thinks, and if he were concerned about hairstyles, makeup, clothes, shaving status, etc. I doubt we'd be together at all.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
hmm...different standards, I'd agree with, but I'm not sure they're "higher".

DH thinks I'm beautiful just the way I am. The vast majority of the people who have ever commented negatively on my appearance are other women. So...whatever. I don't really care what anybody but dh thinks, and if he were concerned about hairstyles, makeup, clothes, shaving status, etc. I doubt we'd be together at all.

I'm trying to remember where I read or heard it. But there was a study showing that what women considered pretty in each other and what men considered pretty in women, the same general ideas where applied, but women were more extreme.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Women and girls have a higher standard for their beauty then men do.











That was seriously funny.

I can guarantee you that I do not have high standards for my 'beauty'.

But my brother... spent an awfully long time in front of the mirror as a teen, and still does to this day and he's 38 years old now.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Women and girls have a higher standard for their beauty then men do.

i find this to be true for the majority


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Amen, sister!

I guess I wouldn't be so militant about it if people were more accepting of it and didn't use words like "gross" to describe body hair.

I smell gross when I have body hair, but the body hair itself I do not find gross


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 









That was seriously funny.

I can guarantee you that I do not have high standards for my 'beauty'.

But my brother... spent an awfully long time in front of the mirror as a teen, and still does to this day and he's 38 years old now.

Not each individual genders beauty. What women find beautiful in women is more extreme then what men find beautiful in women. The alternate is also true. What men find beautiful in men is more extreme then what women find beautiful in men.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Not each individual genders beauty. What women find beautiful in women is more extreme then what men find beautiful in women. The alternate is also true. What men find beautiful in men is more extreme then what women find beautiful in men.

Well, I think it is very different for individuals.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Not sure if this is OT or not, but I heard somewhere once that men fall in love with women they're attracted to, and women become more attracted to the men they love.

I don't think that's always true, but I can see how that idea plays into the difference of beauty standards for men and women.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snuzzmom* 
Not sure if this is OT or not, but I heard somewhere once that men fall in love with women they're attracted to, and women become more attracted to the men they love.

I don't think that's always true, but I can see how that idea plays into the difference of beauty standards for men and women.

I don't like the gender generalizations much, and find there are always exceptions to those rules.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I don't like the gender generalizations much, and find there are always exceptions to those rules.

Well, of course.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't think it's fair to expect the OP to make no comments about shaving as they are 'unsupportive to women.' She is a woman, I am a woman, we all grew up with this expectation that we should shave. We decided how we feel about it, and we don't do it. YMMV. But we all have a relationship to this idea that we must shave as women, and so we all are entitled to our opinions about it.

As for grooming, I do hygiene stuff and I have what I think is a cool/funky hairdo, that is very low maintenance coz I am lazy. I like to look nice, but for me that doesn't include shaving hair that grows naturally on my body, that men are not expected to shave and women in some other cultures do not shave. That I don't like, so I don't do it.

Thank you so much for saying this because I didn't know how to.
I feel like I either have to lie, pretend or say nothing....in my own thread!


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

by all means have your opinion on it. but don't have my opinion on it for me. I shave because if I don't I smell bad 30 minutes later even if I use deoderant. You can think all you want that I am shaving for someone elses benefit, but how does that support non shaving women? all it does it tear down shaving women. you can be supportive of one group without tearing apart another.








and again, if you want to support women in general, then you may want to start thinking of them as honest people who do things for themselves even if they do it differently then you


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
Woah, body hair sure has caused quite a stir!
Well, to answer the OP... this is what I'd do:
Teach your child to be a critical consumer of ideas. Apply critical thinking to the messages in songs, commercials, books, etc. Ask questions about what our culture promotes as beauty and why. How have these ideas evolved? Look at what is considered beautiful in other cultures or in other times (women with beards tattooed on, plates pierced through their lips, feet bound, necks stretched).
Teach your child to love herself, including her body. Research why hair grows where it does at different times in our life. Celebrate her budding body hair: "Is that peach fuzz getting thicker on your legs? You're becoming a woman! Let's talk about the other changes going on in your body..."
Don't be a hypocrite. If you're preaching about leg hair while you're dying your grey hair, your child will pick up on it.
And after all that, don't be surprised if she wants to shave at puberty. If so, let her. Don't make her feel guilty for being insecure (if she's motivated by peer pressure), it wont help her or you. It is age appropriate for teens to try on different roles and personas then discard them. Allowing her to try out "girlie" girl may just show her how uncomfortable, expensive, time consuming, and unnatural the process is.
While our culture provides conflicting and often harmful messages to women about more than just beauty, you are here asking this question which means you're proactively seeking to teach her something better. From one hairy mama to another: Lighten up. The good thing (or bad depending on how you feel) about body hair is that it will grow back.








Recipe for great deodorant that still allows you to sweat:
Sprinkle about 1/8 tsp of baking soda into your hand. Add a few drops of water to liquify. Rub under arms. Simple, Cheap, and works on hairy underarms too!







:

Awesome post, this is so what I needed to hear! And thanks for the deodorant recipe, I use the crystal very sporadically, but I LOVE baking soda SO much!!!!!1


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
by all means have your opinion on it. but don't have my opinion on it for me. I shave because if I don't I smell bad 30 minutes later even if I use deoderant. You can think all you want that I am shaving for someone elses benefit, but how does that support non shaving women? all it does it tear down shaving women. you can be supportive of one group without tearing apart another.








and again, if you want to support women in general, then you may want to start thinking of them as honest people who do things for themselves even if they do it differently then you









I have to say that I was generalizing and I see now that that was stupid, of course there are exceptions, very vocal exceptions, who do it only for their ownself and know without a shadow of a doubt that nothing has affected their choice beyond their own preferrence. I apologize for generalizing and recant my statement. My new statement is: I feel in modern popular culture, esp. from my experience, most women I know and a lot of what I see in the media is the stress to conform to a perfect beauty ideal that includes shaving.

I also very much disagree with the idea of believing in the inherent good of all women. I believe people all posess the ability to be good and righteous but that most actively choose not to place their efforts in those arenas and some want to and think they are trying to but are not succeeding.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

That was very big of you. Thanks









I ado agree with what you say about the stress of the media on beauty. And I also agree with this:

"I believe people all posess the ability to be good and righteous but that most actively choose not to place their efforts in those arenas and some want to and think they are trying to but are not succeeding."

I may have used the word inherent wrong, but what I mean s I trust the good exists in all women (and men) and so I tend to lean towards trusting their goodness unless they show me otherwise.


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## emmalizz (Apr 14, 2009)

.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I smell gross when I have body hair, but the body hair itself I do not find gross









Well why is the "smell" gross? I find most natural body odors not to be gross. In fact that smell, is full of pheromones meant to attract people to you. That smell is your true smell, not "spring flowers" or "baby powder" scented things.

I keep seeing this in the thread about smelling "bad." And I would like to break that down as well.

Most of the people I am around do not shower everyday, nor do they use deodorant. We manage to do just fine. We even have jobs and go out and interact in the world, so don't think we are locked away in a big stinky pile!


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Remember that body hair, body smells, hygenie, and attractive characteristics are all cultural. Some cultures do not shave, or shower daily, or wear deordrant. It is American culture that pins certain exceptations on people and that is what folks are railing against.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Awesome post, this is so what I needed to hear! And thanks for the deodorant recipe, I use the crystal very sporadically, but I LOVE baking soda SO much!!!!!1

Thanks for starting the discussion. I have found it really interesting reading. I'm glad we're asking questions about peer pressure, beauty standards, and how to apply criticism without judgement. I got a good laugh reading some of the picking-plucking-popping confessional posts, being a little compulsive myself.








MDC Rocks!


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

I keep seeing this in the thread about smelling "bad." And I would like to break that down as well
yeah. i think this is a big part of it...

i smell stronger when i don't shave. and i don't use deoderant either. most people would say i "stink" but i don't necessarily think it is a bad smell - it is just how i smell. i don't always like it, but i think that is partly because society says b.o. is bad. especially on a woman. gross. probably worse than not shaving!

sometimes i get to smelling too strong and might need an extra wash or something. but i am not going to pretend that i actually smell like peaches or something.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

also op, i think that you are entitled to your opinion. if if you are wrong. even if your opinion is not informed or openminded at all. it's yours.

but at the same time, it's great that you are open minded enough to consider what others have to say and weigh that together with your own thoughts.

i do think that very few people can really shut out the voice of society in their ear...even when they think they can. but for some, their reasons for shaving are just removed from that and come from a different place altogether.

interesting.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I can understand why some people might dislike unwashed/sweaty person smell or systemic yeast infection smell. While I do have a very strong radar nose (have since my first pregnancy) for whatever reason human odors (aside from someone who hasn't cleaned up well after a BM compounded by months on end of not doing so) don't really bug me that much. I don't get much armpit smell myself. At various parts of my cycle though I can smell my 'feminine' odor, which is pretty interesting because the people around me can't (at least none of my friends who I know well enough to ask out of curiousity can). So it's actually become part of tracking my fertility, and is useful for me in giving me an early heads up if I've got a cyst growing on my ovary (I don't have PCOS, but several times a year I get ovarian cysts). I don't like it when DH wears deodorant, I love his smell and feel happier when I get a whiff. I have worked with many people who can't/won't bathe (mostly because of mental health issues), and while I wouldn't want to bury my face in their clothing and smell them all the time like I do my DH, my system adjusts really quickly, and again, sometimes it can be useful in identifying certain things (like a systemic yeast infection).

But if I had radar nose that was overwhelmed with people scents (and I know there must be people that are) frankly I can understand them wanting to do whatever worked for them to get rid of it. Or if they must work in an environment where they will be punished for not fitting into a specific standard, I have a lot of empathy for that too--not everyone can say "to hell with this job, I'm going to fight for freedom" (though again, I love it when people CAN do that.)


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
Well why is the "smell" gross? I find most natural body odors not to be gross. In fact that smell, is full of pheromones meant to attract people to you. That smell is your true smell, not "spring flowers" or "baby powder" scented things.

I keep seeing this in the thread about smelling "bad." And I would like to break that down as well.

Most of the people I am around do not shower everyday, nor do they use deodorant. We manage to do just fine. We even have jobs and go out and interact in the world, so don't think we are locked away in a big stinky pile!

because I don't like the way it smells. it smells like an italian hoagie (to me), and I don't like the way those smell either. My feet sometimes smell like corn chips but that doesnt bother me because I like the way corn chips smell. I guess I don't like my true smell. Honestly, sometimes I can't stand the smell of bugars in my nose. I have a very sensitive nose. I really don't care if it's "my smell" or even if everyone else thinks I smell good. *I* don't like how it smells. I had a dog who would try to lick my armpits though. He liked the smell. But I just don't. In fact, I am not even bothered by vaginal smell or the smell of my poop, or the smell of my farts. It's only the sweat smell (under arm smell) that bothers me.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Well, I do shave, occasionally. However, I don't wear makeup. So when my girls wanted to start wearing makeup, they were on their own. I had 2 rules: 1) no sharing makeup; and 2) they couldn't look like a street walker (i.e. no heavy eyeliner, etc.). And I never taught my girls to shave their legs. They learned that on their own as well.

Not putting down your belief about shaving, but not all men shave either. My dh has worn a beard for most of our married life. I've never looked at shaving as a sexist activity. I shave when my leg hairs start tickling my legs under my jeans or when it's hot. My dh shaves off his beard when it's too hot to have it. And grows it back when it starts getting cold. We both shave/not shave for similar reasons.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I agree that what she does with her own body is her choice. I really just want her to understand why other people do it and the history behind it so that she doesn't just assume that it is 'what you do' like a lot of people I know do. I also don't want her to feel gross about her mommy not doing it, but living in this society it is just not accepted by mainstream folks.

That won't be much of an issue as she will already know that. After all you don't shave. And don't worry, she'll feel gross about you no matter if you shaved or didn't shave. IME, teen girls feel that their mom's behavior and dress is gross. But they grow out of it.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
a woman's body hair increases dramatically once she hits puberty. shaving, especially removing all of the pubic hair, makes a woman's vagina resemble that of a pre pubescent girl. this is not the only beauty marker in society that serves this purpose. another example is out emphasis on being thin and eschewing the curves most women have. those curves become more prominent the closer a girl gets to adulthood.


Then how do you (or anyone here who is on the infantile side of shaving) explain men's fascination with big boobs? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Then how do you (or anyone here who is on the infantile side of shaving) explain men's fascination with big boobs? Inquiring minds want to know.

Not all men like big boobs


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
Well why is the "smell" gross? I find most natural body odors not to be gross. In fact that smell, is full of pheromones meant to attract people to you. That smell is your true smell, not "spring flowers" or "baby powder" scented things.

I keep seeing this in the thread about smelling "bad." And I would like to break that down as well.

Most of the people I am around do not shower everyday, nor do they use deodorant. We manage to do just fine. We even have jobs and go out and interact in the world, so don't think we are locked away in a big stinky pile!

I have been thinking the same thing about natural human smells and how odd it seems to me that people truely don't like them. But reading others responses I guess that ust is what it is.
I happen LOVE my DHs natural musky odor, even after working hard all day at his landscaping job.
And I am not at all offended by my own smell, even though my mom complains about it and says I smell bad to her.
I love the smell of a healthy persons natural scent but I think you have to be eating right and getting lots of water not to smell weird. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but most people I like the smell of do eat very well.

I also do not like unnatural smells like chemically deodorants or body washes and I don't even like the taste of really minty toothpaste, I prefer no flavor or something more mild like calendula. I just really don't like fake-y smells or tastes, although I don't really know anyone else besides my hubs who feels that way about body washes and stuff.
We use oils for moisturizing and scented ones are nice. Some nurses commented one time when my hubs was in the hospital, for shooting a nail through his finger, that we smelled like a health food store and I took that to mean that we smell like patchouli or something which is entirely possible as DH does like pathchouli soap. I did take it as a compliment although I think that might be subjective.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

I like shaving. It is part of a grooming ritual that I enjoy. I also shave-ahem-different parts of my body for my husband. And he is decidely not interested in little girls.

I find these kinds of statements to do a lot of harm because pedophilia is a very real illness and relatively few people suffer from it. To suggest that men in general like women who shave because it makes us look like little girls just doesn't seem supported by basic evidence out there about pedophilia.

Most adult men and women-whether straight or gay (how many of us have seen gay people lumped in with sexual deviants?)-have within normal range sexual preferences and desire adult members. True pedophiles aren't interested in grown women-even shaved bare. To suggest otherwise is simply not true.

We can argue all day about the pervasive influence of mass media culture on body image and cleanliness. But lets stop equating shaving with deviant sexual behavior.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Not all men like big boobs









True that! My dh does not have a fascination with big boobs at all if his brief forrays into internet porn have any tales to tell.......think big booty girls to the max!
But I do think there are quite a few guys who like big boobs, just not the ones that date me as I never have and never will, unless I'm preg., they did get huge for awhile then.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I like shaving. It is part of a grooming ritual that I enjoy. I also shave-ahem-different parts of my body for my husband. And he is decidely not interested in little girls.

I find these kinds of statements to do a lot of harm because pedophilia is a very real illness and relatively few people suffer from it. To suggest that men in general like women who shave because it makes us look like little girls just doesn't seem supported by basic evidence out there about pedophilia.

Most adult men and women-whether straight or gay (how many of us have seen gay people lumped in with sexual deviants?)-have within normal range sexual preferences and desire adult members. True pedophiles aren't interested in grown women-even shaved bare. To suggest otherwise is simply not true.

We can argue all day about the pervasive influence of mass media culture on body image and cleanliness. But lets stop equating shaving with deviant sexual behavior.

Yes, but several women within this thread have said that they tried shaving down there completely and didn't feel god about it personally, that they themselves felt prepubescent.

I don't think that a man liking a shaved woman is necessarily a *pedophile*, but I do think he prefers a certain ideal that is not reality, it is fantasy and I think it is a loaded fantasy and I as a woman don't want to fulfill that fantasy personally. I would much rather assert a realistic ideal than squeeze myself into some smooth pink tight package. And I think the fantasy spins out of a mans desire for a younger, more naive, demure girl(although I'm sure allowances are made for sexual prowess) versus a real, strong, full, assertive woman. I'm sure there will be protests over this assertion but it is real in the world that I have seen.
When my husband worked in the strip club industry in N.O. I noticed that the girls who made the most money the easiest were selling a fantasy of a girl on the cusp of adult-hood. Think tight body and natural boobs, usually a shorter girl with a very sweet face and big eyes. Those girls would work the angle that they were naive, cute, charming but never ever assertive. They let the guy lead the whole interaction and wouls make him feel like everything was his idea. They raked in the dough with this waaaay more than the girls with the big boobs, of course those girls had their market, too.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

Yes, but several women within this thread have said that they tried shaving down there completely and didn't feel god about it personally, that they themselves felt prepubescent.
Yes great. So don't shave down there if it doesn't make you feel good. But what turns people on (or doesn't-hairy men are a turn off for me) or off isn't wrong as long as they are consenting.

Quote:

it is fantasy and I think it is a loaded fantasy and I as a woman don't want to fulfill that fantasy personally
I like letting my husband have fantasies just as he does for me. Fantasies are safe outlets and perfectly natural parts of sexuality. If you don'ty like it don't do it. But again it has nothing to do with the act of shaving.

What makes a woman strong and assertive is that she is comfortable with her body and her sexuality and is not afraid to express herself with her partner.

As to girls in the strip club I could argue that they are in fact controlling their sexuality as well and are assertive in their dealings with men. They have seen how some men act in strip clubs and have learned what works to make the most money.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Not all men like big boobs









Ah but not all men like shaved women. But we're not talking about *all* men we are talking about society's expectations of us and it was stated way back in the thread that society is trying to make us little girls. Well how does that work when society is bushing full breast and a nice bum? It doesn't.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I have been thinking the same thing about natural human smells and how odd it seems to me that people truely don't like them. But reading others responses I guess that ust is what it is.
I happen LOVE my DHs natural musky odor, even after working hard all day at his landscaping job.
And I am not at all offended by my own smell, even though my mom complains about it and says I smell bad to her.
I love the smell of a healthy persons natural scent but I think you have to be eating right and getting lots of water not to smell weird. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but most people I like the smell of do eat very well.

I also do not like unnatural smells like chemically deodorants or body washes and I don't even like the taste of really minty toothpaste, I prefer no flavor or something more mild like calendula. I just really don't like fake-y smells or tastes, although I don't really know anyone else besides my hubs who feels that way about body washes and stuff.
We use oils for moisturizing and scented ones are nice. Some nurses commented one time when my hubs was in the hospital, for shooting a nail through his finger, that we smelled like a health food store and I took that to mean that we smell like patchouli or something which is entirely possible as DH does like pathchouli soap. I did take it as a compliment although I think that might be subjective.

some people's natural body smell I don't mind. it's just me. Im a smelly person lol - but ONLY my underarms and ONLY when I don't shave. deodorant doesn't work AND I hate the smell of deodorant anyway, so even if it didnt work I dont think that would be incentive enough for me. I eat very well and drink lots of water and still have the same problem.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

BTW - I've spoken to both men and women who shave "down there" and do it because the smooth feeling increases sexual pleasure for themselves - and really don't care what the other person thinks of it.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
Well why is the "smell" gross? I find most natural body odors not to be gross. In fact that smell, is full of pheromones meant to attract people to you. That smell is your true smell, not "spring flowers" or "baby powder" scented things.

I keep seeing this in the thread about smelling "bad." And I would like to break that down as well.

Most of the people I am around do not shower everyday, nor do they use deodorant. We manage to do just fine. We even have jobs and go out and interact in the world, so don't think we are locked away in a big stinky pile!

This is another individual thing. I agree that body odor in and of itself isn't bad smelling but I'll put myself out there here and say when I don't shave I do smell bad. I mean BAD. I mean I smell myself and gag. It is something I am very self conscious about. I am a heavy sweater as well. So when I don't shave I smell very bad to the point where it is painfully obvious even to me- and I am use to the smell. Some people just too smell worse or more strongly than others. Than there is my husband who is a man and still after sweating buckets hardly smells and not even bad at all.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

With the shaving and body odor debates I have seen the same thing happen as with the bra debate- people don't take into account that not everyone is like them. You wouldn't believe how many bra debates I have been in where someone is going on and on and on about how bras are so bad for you and cause pain etc etc how they are so uncomfortable in them but feel liberated not wearing one and they find that their breasts are perkier and their back feels less tense... but they are a B cup and are talking to me- Miss 36 DDD/E. Uh, no. It is PAINFUL for me not to wear a bra.

We need to face we are all not the same physically and you know we also don't all have the same preferences. There is nothing wrong with either. Like it is offensive that people make ignorant and wrong statements about those who don't shave or wear a bra or shower daily it is also true of the oposite. I'd love not to shower and shave daily but really it makes me increadibly uncomfortable not to. I itch, my smell is so bad I get a headache even, etc. And the funny thing is my total OCD aunt thinks my grooming is waaaay too little. Go fig!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

What interests me also is why people seem to think certain hygiene practices are such a new thing. Sure 1,000 years ago we didn't have Degree but men and women have been concerned about their smell and appearance since the beginning of time. We keep talking about natural well you know those things are natural to us as humans. It's just how we go about it that has changed so much over the centuries. And yes of course there is excess but that is with everything. I just wouldn't be so quick to blame society and say we are all it's pawns. Humans have been living like this for quite some time now without TV and magazines and infomercials. We naturally find that we want to be appealing and so we act on that. Of course this varies from individual to individual and culture to culture but the premise is still the same.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I dont think women not shaving is unappealing tho. I think it's pretty sexay.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I dont think women not shaving is unappealing tho. I think it's pretty sexay.

Me too and so does my DH (I believe I stated that up thread somewhere...) I am curious as to why you felt the need to state this.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Me too and so does my DH (I believe I stated that up thread somewhere...) I am curious as to why you felt the need to state this.

Because you are talking about people 'making themselves appealing' since the dawn of time, before degree, uninfluenced by tv... on a thread about not shaving our legs et al.


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## Shahbazin (Aug 3, 2006)

Really interesting to see all of these points of view!

I started shaving my legs around 6th grade, because of social pressures - other girls were starting to shave, & it was the "society approved" thing to do.

I stopped shaving armpits & legs a couple of years ago (was always sporadic about legs, anyhow), & frankly, I have _less_ BO when I _don't_ shave. I do still shave my legs sometimes, but that's because my jeans wear the hair off in patches, & it looks funny (to me). I wear deodorant, paint my nails, have long hair, & don't wear make-up. For me personally, not shaving, despite social pressures, was a result of being more comfortable with myself as I am, as well as more physically comfortable not getting razor burns, cuts, or ingrown hairs (what can I say? I'm a klutz>)

I never _heard_ of shaving anywhere else







until I was almost 40, pregnant with my 1st child, & started hanging out on expectant mother boards. The only time I've ever had "hygiene" issues are postpartum, & I wasn't about to try to start shaving then!

The funny thing is, DH is the one that colors his hair (doesn't like grey) & shaves his back & chest (says the hair itches). Personally, I like how he looks with extra hair, but it's his body - & he doesn't care whether I shave or not, but when I told him about shaving anything other than armpits or legs, he thought it sounded peculiar.

I'm going to present shaving to my girls as a choice; but they can shave or not, as feels right to them.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Because you are talking about people 'making themselves appealing' since the dawn of time, before degree, uninfluenced by tv... on a thread about not shaving our legs et al.

I was talking initially about hygiene-wise (hence me talking about smell and Degree) and then stated at the end it varies from individual to individual and culture to culture.

To some body hair is appealing both for themselves and for others and to some it's not. Like I said, it varies. My point was this isn't some new fad. Human grooming has been happening since the beginning of time. It varies, yes, but I am saying it is more instinctual than I think people are giving credit for. I wasn't trying to say what is appealing for everyone everywhere and what it isn't.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Nobody here is saying we don't groom tho, or don't practice basic hygiene. Grooming =/= shaving, so I don't get why make the point about human grooming, dawn of time, etc. What is the relevance to the discussion about whether we shave or not?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
*Nobody here is saying we don't groom tho, or don't practice basic hygiene.* Grooming =/= shaving, so I don't get why make the point about human grooming, dawn of time, etc. What is the relevance to the discussion about whether we shave or not?

And neither am I.









AGAIN I was referring to the "this is all societies fault/conditioning" talk. Where I do see societies hand I think we are being too dismissive of human nature.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
And neither am I.









AGAIN I was referring to the "this is all societies fault/conditioning" talk. Where I do see societies hand I think we are being too dismissive of human nature.

You can't use a nature argument to justify a culturally specific practice tho. It is as illogical as making the same argument for something like breast implants, for example. It's human nature to groom ergo ______ practice is just natural.

The specifics of what is considered beautiful/necessary for people to do, and whether it falls more heavily on one gender than another, the importance placed upon practices, is highly cultural. It is not just human nature.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shahbazin* 
I have _less_ BO when I _don't_ shave.

I'm so insanely jealous!!!! I have tried everything, I've even tried washing my armpit hair with shampoo (okay in retrospect I don't know why I thought that would make a difference but I was desperate for a solution besides shaving because I just really hate doing it - especially since I sometimes forget and then end up having to shave in the sink and rewash my pits







: but nothing worked. I tried every kind of shampoo, soap, body wash, natural remedies - both topical and oral - i eat well, I drink a lot of water - im not very active and in fact, I dont even sweat much? I dont know what causes this odor on me, but shaving makes it go away so I shave lol


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You can't use a nature argument to justify a culturally specific practice tho. It is as illogical as making the same argument for something like breast implants, for example. It's human nature to groom ergo ______ practice is just natural.

The specifics of what is considered beautiful/necessary for people to do, and whether it falls more heavily on one gender than another, the importance placed upon practices, is highly cultural. It is not just human nature.

Ah but see it isn't heavier on one gender it just so happens one gender has more pressure to look a certain way via society than the other. Yet both genders do feel the pull to appear more appealing, do they not?

I am not talking plastic surgery or the like (in my PP I acknowledged the extremes and said they are always present) I am talking the basic human desire. No specifics, again just the basic human desire. There is a difference between this and cultural specific practices. It's "I want to look good" vs "I want to look good and will accomplish this by going up a bra size". I am referring to the former.

So no society does not dictate our wanting to look good or feel a certain way but it does give us the suggestion (to put it way lightly) of what that should entail. But I wouldn't say no woman would ever think to shave on her own or that shaving was obviously invented by a man etc etc. As it is obvious in our own society we as humans are capable of making our own fashion and grooming choices based on our own preferences and have done this for some time in our history on this earth. We can make up and have made up our own minds through out time. There is that AND there is that culture plays a part- however in varying degrees from person to person.

So one can't say it's all society. It's not. We do have the natural instinct there to want to look appealing and we have the individual thought of what that means. Is it possible for society to dictate that for us? Yup! Doesn't mean it is the case across the board. Just think we need to give ourselves a bit more credit is all.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

There is more pressure on women to look 'attractive' in culturally defined ways. We are valued more on our physicality.

I am not saying no woman would ever think to shave on her own or that shaving was invented by a man. I have no idea who thought the idea up. I definitely don't think it's 'human nature,' and the plastic surgery analogy was meant to explain that you can't take a specific practice (shaving/surgery/whatever) and make an argument that because humans naturally groom ourselves, that practice is natural. I think it's clear that shaving legs/underarms for women is a cultural practice, embedded with lots of cultural messages and meanings about beauty, the body, the feminine. Can't erase that fact with a 'grooming is natural' argument.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Ah but see it isn't heavier on one gender it just so happens one gender has more pressure to look a certain way via society than the other. Yet both genders do feel the pull to appear more appealing, do they not?

I am not talking plastic surgery or the like (in my PP I acknowledged the extremes and said they are always present) I am talking the basic human desire. No specifics, again just the basic human desire. There is a difference between this and cultural specific practices. It's "I want to look good" vs "I want to look good and will accomplish this by going up a bra size". I am referring to the former.

So no society does not dictate our wanting to look good or feel a certain way but it does give us the suggestion (to put it way lightly) of what that should entail. But I wouldn't say no woman would ever think to shave on her own or that shaving was obviously invented by a man etc etc. As it is obvious in our own society we as humans are capable of making our own fashion and grooming choices based on our own preferences and have done this for some time in our history on this earth. We can make up and have made up our own minds through out time. There is that AND there is that culture plays a part- however in varying degrees from person to person.

*So one can't say it's all society. It's not. We do have the natural instinct there to want to look appealing and we have the individual thought of what that means. Is it possible for society to dictate that for us? Yup! Doesn't mean it is the case across the board. Just think we need to give ourselves a bit more credit is all.*

Yep. and to the bolded - even the women who don't share are doing what they think is appealing. thisnext said herself she thinks its sexy. and there are some societies where not shaving is the norm, it's what is "desirable" there are also men who have fetishes for women who don't shave.

In a yahoos answer thing a guy said "Isn't it weird that only in the U.S. do women shave off their sexiest feature?" in reference to armpit hair.

(I realize his statement wasnt accurate - but he obviously thinks armpit hair is a woman's sexiest feature - and there are many men who have fetishes like this and probably many women ho dont shave to serve this fetish. doesn't mean all women who dont shave are tryng to appeal to them though ya know?)


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Beautification is a natural inclination, though, and hair removal methods and tools being used as a part of beautification efforts go just about as far back into human history as history itself. Any particular cultural context is relevant, but the practice can't be laid at the feet of a single cultural context.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

So you don't believe we have in us the drive to look more appealing- whatever that may entail? Because I think it's pretty obvious we do. You are being too literal and looking for the exact connection between human nature and specific beauty practices. Not what I was saying at all.I am not saying shaving=human nature. I am saying a desire to look appealing=human nature and for some that means shaving (or whatever else). So it's really not a leap to say that humans came up with the different guises of "attractiveness" all on their own and not because of big bad society. It obviously later became societal but again that in no way means it's all society all the time.

We all want to look and feel our best. This is at our core. Saying that does not mean I am saying a tummy tuck is at our core


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

lol look what I found on google:

The shaving of hair has sometimes been used in attempts to eradicate lice or to minimize body odor due to accumulation of odor-causing micro-organisms in hair.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hair_removal


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Beautification is a natural inclination, though, and hair removal methods and tools being used as a part of beautification efforts go just about as far back into human history as history itself. Any particular cultural context is relevant, but the practice can't be laid at the feet of a single cultural context.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I am saying a desire to look appealing=human nature and for some that means shaving (or whatever else).

yes and animals do this too. both sexes want to be appealing to the opposite sex to attract them and reproduce. of course we are a bit more complex then that now, but it's still that "animal instinct" even those who don't shave (at least some) have said they think not shaving is sexy and some men think women not shaving is sexy so they want to look appealing, in whatever way they think appealing is. Or smell appealing. even if its just so they dont make themselves pass out


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
yes and animals do this too. both sexes want to be appealing to the opposite sex to attract them and reproduce. of course we are a bit more complex then that now, but it's still that "animal instinct" even those who don't shave (at least some) have said they think not shaving is sexy and some men think women not shaving is sexy so they want to look appealing, in whatever way they think appealing is. Or smell appealing. even if its just so they dont make themselves pass out









Exactly.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
So you don't believe we have in us the drive to look more appealing- whatever that may entail? Because I think it's pretty obvious we do. You are being too literal and looking for the exact connection between human nature and specific beauty practices. Not what I was saying at all.I am not saying shaving=human nature. I am saying a desire to look appealing=human nature and for some that means shaving (or whatever else). So it's really not a leap to say that humans came up with the different guises of "attractiveness" all on their own and not because of big bad society. It obviously later became societal but again that in no way means it's all society all the time.

We all want to look and feel our best. This is at our core. Saying that does not mean I am saying a tummy tuck is at our core









I think:

- It is hard to know what about our desire to look appealing is human nature vs. a culture that prioritizes it heartily

- Even if desire to look appealing is human 'nature,' yes it is a giant leap to say humans came up with something like shaving or tummy tucks all on our own separate from the cultures in which we live.

- Looking and feeling our best are two separate things, and the impact that our looks have on our feelings is heavily influenced by culture.

You are looking to separate out the cultural element to somehow justify these things as just being human nature. It doesn't work like that, behaviour is not just natural and uninfluenced by culture, especially not behaviour connected to 'beauty' in a world where we are surrounded by billboards and all the rest of it, the messages and cultural constructs around beauty and physicality which are far too involved to attempt to even list.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

more interesting research shows that underarm hair should help "wick away" sweat and prevent the bacteria causing odor. Maybe because I wear tank tops and the odor is just wicked away back onto my skin instead of onto a shirt I can take off is why I have the smell? IDK but I dont care if I have underarm hair or not (looks wise) so im just doing by what gets the odor gone. lol.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think:

- It is hard to know what about our desire to look appealing is human nature vs. a culture that prioritizes it heartily

No it's not. It's human nature. Now what I think you are referring to is specific appearance (say tan skin and a perky C cup). THAT is societal not our basic desire to look appealing.

Quote:

- Even if desire to look appealing is human 'nature,' yes it is a giant leap to say humans came up with something like shaving or tummy tucks all on our own separate from the cultures in which we live.
Yet it had to begin somewhere, did it not? Society is not a separate being that creates things all on it's own.

Quote:

- Looking and feeling our best are two separate things, and the impact that our looks have on our feelings is heavily influenced by culture.
When I said looking and feeling our best I was referring to appearance and grooming. An example is I don't feel good when I don't shave not because I view myself as less appealing but because I am more itchy, hot, etc. I brush my teeth because it helps me maintain a good feeling. The two are not always separate though and not always based on society's expectations. I do not meet society's standards when it comes to looks but when I look good FOR ME I do feel better.

Quote:

You are looking to separate out the cultural element to somehow justify these things as just being human nature.
Justification? Why would I need to justify these things but relating them to human nature. For one they are what they are and for two they are extremely personal.

Quote:

t doesn't work like that, behaviour is not just natural and uninfluenced by culture, especially not behaviour connected to 'beauty' in a world where we are surrounded by billboards and all the rest of it, the messages and cultural constructs around beauty and physicality which are far too involved to attempt to even list.
And I have acknowledged that society does play a role. But to say it is ALL society is as off base as saying it couldn't possibly involve human nature. Again this really does vary from person to person, culture to culture. However we are giving society a lot of credit when we blame it all exclusively on it.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
more interesting research shows that underarm hair should help "wick away" sweat and prevent the bacteria causing odor. Maybe because I wear tank tops and the odor is just wicked away back onto my skin instead of onto a shirt I can take off is why I have the smell? IDK but I dont care if I have underarm hair or not (looks wise) so im just doing by what gets the odor gone. lol.

I have my theories about this in relation to MY underarm hair (and BTW underarm hair on a woman is sooooo sexy and I have grown mine out a number of times before just having to get rid of it







)- I have the type of hair that just sucks everything in. Now shouldn't this be different for underarm hair? It doesn't seem to be the case for me. I'm the type that jumps into a body of water and comes up for air and my hair is still dry in most places.







:


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
And I have acknowledged that society does play a role. But to say it is ALL society is as off base as saying it couldn't possibly involve human nature. Again this really does vary from person to person, culture to culture. However we are giving society a lot of credit when we blame it all exclusively on it.

Society does have a habit of trying to over rule people's nature. That's why "dresses are for girls". Because society doesn't want to accept that some boys, even straight, masculin boys who know their boyness better then some adults naturally want to wear dresses.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Society does have a habit of trying to over rule people's nature. That's why "dresses are for girls". Because society doesn't want to accept that some boys, even straight, masculin boys who know their boyness better then some adults naturally want to wear dresses.

Ah but not in every culture and not in every time which just furthers my point. It has to start somewhere and each culture has evolved differently.

Oh but I do also agree







Just saying we can think outside of society


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

We can, but it's much harder.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
We can, but it's much harder.

Agreed.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Agreed.

Just want to make it clear. I have no desire to wear a dress. I do get my nails done and shave my legs though. I only shave because DD really wanted to learn how and I kept doing it because it got me all kinds of nice attention from DH.


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Feb 27, 2008)

I didn't read the whole thread, but I haven't shaved my legs in I don't know how long, and even longer since I did it on a regular basis. When I moved out at 17, razors became a luxury item.

When my DD wants to shave, I'll get her some shaving cream and a good razor, and tell her to have it. It's her body and her hair, and I know that when I was a younger teenager I was teased because I didn't shave my legs, so I did it for a few years before I decided it was way more hassle then it was worth. I'm relatively sure the nicks and razor burn and general pain in the ass it is will convince her much better than anything I could ever tell her. Shaving is just not a hill I want to die on.

~Rose


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Ah but not all men like shaved women. But we're not talking about *all* men we are talking about society's expectations of us and it was stated way back in the thread that society is trying to make us little girls. Well how does that work when society is bushing full breast and a nice bum? It doesn't.

Actually the person who stated that men like big boobs seemed to be talking about _all_ men, so I was just clarifying. I'm well aware that not all men like shaved women as my own husband finds women who are shaved to be disturbing.
I do understand the conflict you are pointing out b/w the idea that men want us to look like little girls and the fact that so many men like huge boobs. I think the thing is that they DON'T want us to appear as children, they want us to appear as young _teenagers_; young and naive and virginal but with perky breasts, rounds bottoms and not much by way of pubic hair. The ones who want really big boobs are not the majority they are fetishist, and honestly I think it stems from this country's lack of breastfeeding. They seem to need breasts that appear to be engorged with milk







I think men in america are, for the most part, afraid of real women and that's why they find this teenager idea so attractive. A real woman who is confident in herself presents a great challenge to a man's power. I think a woman can have just as much power while waxing her entire body and getting breast implants and hair extensions, BUT the fact is that most women in america feel trapped by these ideals and that they have no choice but to try to measure up to them whether they enjoy these practices or not.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
I think it would be a tricky discussion.

Telling a young girl "I don't shave because I think it's silly, infantilizing, a waste of your time and a symbol of male oppression but hey, you do whatever you want, it's your choice" isn't really giving them a choice, is it?

I mean, reading these posts it's very easy to pick up on the strong feelings people have, and I would think that daughters would want to comply with those feelings to please mom, even if they weren't really sure they believed them.

At least I can speak for myself and say that I often worry about detangling my children's true desires from their desire to please me, if that makes sense.

Ideally, the subject could be discussed neutrally. "Some women shave for X, Y, Z reason, some women don't for X, Y, Z reason."

But I wouldn't use judging words like "silly' and "infantilizing" as the reasons - I think that sort of language would make the daughter feel guilty if she wants to shave.


Well said!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You can't use a nature argument to justify a culturally specific practice tho. It is as illogical as making the same argument for something like breast implants, for example. It's human nature to groom ergo ______ practice is just natural.

The specifics of what is considered beautiful/necessary for people to do, and whether it falls more heavily on one gender than another, the importance placed upon practices, is highly cultural. It is not just human nature.


LOL, this is what I was thinking, too









I am not trying to pick on Mag, but I don't think your arguman makes sense either. Just because throughout time people in some cultures have placed importance on grooming does not make it natural.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Not all men like big boobs









So society and the media are wrong? If they are wrong about breasts, then, just maybe, they are also wrong about body hair.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think:

- It is hard to know what about our desire to look appealing is human nature vs. a culture that prioritizes it heartily

- Even if desire to look appealing is human 'nature,' yes it is a giant leap to say humans came up with something like shaving or tummy tucks all on our own separate from the cultures in which we live.

- Looking and feeling our best are two separate things, and the impact that our looks have on our feelings is heavily influenced by culture.

You are looking to separate out the cultural element to somehow justify these things as just being human nature. It doesn't work like that, behaviour is not just natural and uninfluenced by culture, especially not behaviour connected to 'beauty' in a world where we are surrounded by billboards and all the rest of it, the messages and cultural constructs around beauty and physicality which are far too involved to attempt to even list.

Of course all of this I agree with and then I add to that:
Even if it is just basic instinct, which I do not at all believe it is, I personally do not think that being led by human instinct is appropriate in a lot of situations (think war, murder, incest, abuse etc.)
I personally want to analyze why things are done and do things because I have considered them, not because instinctually women throughout time have thought it important to spend their time preening to find a mate.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
LOL, this is what I was thinking, too









I am not trying to pick on Mag, but I don't think your arguman makes sense either. Just because throughout time people in some cultures have placed importance on grooming does not make it natural.

Except I am not saying things like shaving= human instinct/nature/what have you I am saying the desire to look appealing is. That's what I kept posting over and over last night. I think some are just making too literal of a connection.

Quote:

Even if it is just basic instinct, which I do not at all believe it is, I personally do not think that being led by human instinct is appropriate in a lot of situations (think war, murder, incest, abuse etc.)
I personally want to analyze why things are done and do things because I have considered them, not because instinctually women throughout time have thought it important to spend their time preening to find a mate.
I completely agree with this.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Except I am not saying things like shaving= human instinct/nature/what have you I am saying the desire to look appealing is. That's what I kept posting over and over last night. I think some are just making too literal of a connection.

i get what you are saying i think. the desire to be appealing is a part of human nature... some people shave b/c they feel that it makes them more appealing/ attractive. the same way some people wear make up, cologne, paint their fingernails, style their hair etc. the activities themselves aren't human nature... but the reasoning behind them is.

fwiw i think it is absolutely part of our nature to want to be attractive to potential mates... how else would our species survive? every animal has their own unique ways of doing the same thing.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i get what you are saying i think. the desire to be appealing is a part of human nature... some people shave b/c they feel that it makes them more appealing/ attractive. the same way some people wear make up, cologne, paint their fingernails, style their hair etc. the activities themselves aren't human nature... but the reasoning behind them is.

fwiw i think it is absolutely part of our nature to want to be attractive to potential mates... how else would our species survive? every animal has their own unique ways of doing the same thing.

Yup!









Now how we go about it is something completely different.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i am not sure murder, war, incest, abuse etc are basic human instincts... i think the reasons people do it may be instinct based.. but the instinct is not the same as the action used to follow it. sorry... i am not sure how to say this.

war for instance. i think protecting our spouses and children are basic human instincts. if someone felt that their families were threatened the instinct to protect is natural. it is possible that people could be misguided or misinformed enough to believe that the best way to protect their families is war. the instinct itself has nothing to do with war... however, it is possible to use those instincts to fuel a war. does that make sense?


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm a guy and only have sons...but why would someone strictly disallow shaving? I mean, everyone knows that it's just for cosmetic reasons. And yeah, I do think it looks better but I wouldn't hold it against any women/girl if they didn't.

When I played sports, I used to shave my legs. No idea why.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i am not sure murder, war, incest, abuse etc are basic human instincts... i think the reasons people do it may be instinct based.. but the instinct is not the same as the action used to follow it. sorry... i am not sure how to say this.

war for instance. i think protecting our spouses and children are basic human instincts. if someone felt that their families were threatened the instinct to protect is natural. it is possible that people could be misguided or misinformed enough to believe that the best way to protect their families is war. the instinct itself has nothing to do with war... however, it is possible to use those instincts to fuel a war. does that make sense?

yep, it does.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i am not sure murder, war, incest, abuse etc are basic human instincts... i think the reasons people do it may be instinct based.. but the instinct is not the same as the action used to follow it. sorry... i am not sure how to say this.

war for instance. i think protecting our spouses and children are basic human instincts. if someone felt that their families were threatened the instinct to protect is natural. it is possible that people could be misguided or misinformed enough to believe that the best way to protect their families is war. the instinct itself has nothing to do with war... however, it is possible to use those instincts to fuel a war. does that make sense?

It does to me because that is essentially what I am saying with desire to be appealing= human nature. I believe you are saying that war is not the instinct but the desire to protect is and that is what is used in war.

Then again I'd go further and say wanting to attain is the instinct, greed is that unchecked and greed is often times the driving force for those who start the wars and command the wars.

But as for the literal direct connection between war and instinct yes I see where you are coming from and have to agree.

Kind of like sex is an instinct. Rape, not so much.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
I'm a guy and only have sons...but why would someone strictly disallow shaving? I mean, everyone knows that it's just for cosmetic reasons. And yeah, I do think it looks better but I wouldn't hold it against any women/girl if they didn't.

When I played sports, I used to shave my legs. No idea why.









So even though your preferrence as a man is that you like shaved women versus unshaved, you wouldn't at all let that preferrence affect your decision making when choosing to date a woman, hat is assuming you do date women obviously.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
It does to me because that is essentially what I am saying with desire to be appealing= human nature. I believe you are saying that war is not the instinct but the desire to protect is and that is what is used in war.

Then again I'd go further and say wanting to attain is the instinct, greed is that unchecked and greed is often times the driving force for those who start the wars and command the wars.

But as for the literal direct connection between war and instinct yes I see where you are coming from and have to agree.

Kind of like sex is an instinct. Rape, not so much.

I actually think that if the argument of "we are all different and you don't know where another person is coming from" is true then you can't say that for the people who rape people (or anything else) that that does not come instinctually to them.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
So even though your preferrence as a man is that you like shaved women versus unshaved, you wouldn't at all let that preferrence affect your decision making when choosing to date a woman, hat is assuming you do date women obviously.

Obviously I am not him but I find this question interesting. Doesn't everyone essentially "settle" in one for or another with their mate or even date? I mean I love beards but my DH doesn't really grow facial hair.

I think it really depends on where one's priorities are. Is it a priority for someone to have a clean shaved woman? It may be but I think it's all relative really. Having a preference doesn't mean you automatically dismiss those who don't meet it (unless of course it's a huge deal to you- like if the potential mate/date smokes and that is just something you can't get past).


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I actually think that if the argument of "we are all different and you don't know where another person is coming from" is true then you can't say that for the people who rape people (or anything else) that that does not come instinctually to them.

Ok you lost me a bit







I _think_ I know what you are saying but I am not sure.

I will use the rape example- I don't think it is instinct but I do think sometimes the sex instinct becomes so intense or so confused it becomes a "must have NOW!" thing. Of course not in every case and I am in no way trying to excuse rape (let's stop that being thrown at me before it is







) but I _think_ that is what you were saying.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I guess in a nutshell I am trying to say instinct goes a bit crazy and gets crossed and that is why we do need to examine and question it and not just go with it which is why I agreed with your PP. Did that make any sense?


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
So even though your preferrence as a man is that you like shaved women versus unshaved, you wouldn't at all let that preferrence affect your decision making when choosing to date a woman, hat is assuming you do date women obviously.

I have a feeling you are trying to get me to answer a certain way.

It would not be my main criteria, no. But appearances do have an effect on people. Matching hypothesis...


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
I have a feeling you are trying to get me to answer a certain way.

It would not be my main criteria, no. But appearances do have an effect on people. Matching hypothesis...

I was just asking because your answer was sort of short and I didn't get the whole gist of what I tought you were trying to say. And I have to admit I still don't. I don't know what you mean by 'matching hypothesis' either.

And to Mag's answer for you:
I have had guy friend's who would literally NOT date a girl or even sleep with her if she had pubic hair AT ALL. I think the preferrence is stornger or weaker depending. To some guys it repulses them, skeeves them what have you. I do think people make decisions based on rdiculous things and this does happen to be one of them.
And no, I don't think everyone settles or compromises when choosing a mate. I have several girlfriends who are still single because they are looking for MR./Ms. perfect. Is that what you meant, Mag?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Ok you lost me a bit







I _think_ I know what you are saying but I am not sure.

I will use the rape example- I don't think it is instinct but I do think sometimes the sex instinct becomes so intense or so confused it becomes a "must have NOW!" thing. Of course not in every case and I am in no way trying to excuse rape (let's stop that being thrown at me before it is







) but I _think_ that is what you were saying.









i actually think the instinct is to procreate... produce children etc. and the physical pleasure we get from sex makes this even more appealing.. or something along those lines.

rape is a toughie b/c it is about control. i would imagine that some who rapes another person (or animal for that matter) has had their own instincts warped in such a way that they are not able to respond to them appropriately.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
And to Mag's answer for you:
I have had guy friend's who would literally NOT date a girl or even sleep with her if she had pubic hair AT ALL. I think the preferrence is stornger or weaker depending. To some guys it repulses them, skeeves them what have you. I do think people make decisions based on rdiculous things and this does happen to be one of them.

Well I agree except with it being ridiculous. Everybody has got their something.

Quote:

And no, I don't think everyone settles or compromises when choosing a mate. I have several girlfriends who are still single because they are looking for MR./Ms. perfect. Is that what you meant, Mag?
But I was referring to the people who are in relationships. Of course those who are still single haven't settled for their relationship- there is no relationship to speak of!

I doubt anyone in a relationship has found the absolute 100% perfect nothing-ever-happens-in-the-negative in their relationship ever type of thing, ykwim? It can even be something as small as hair on his knuckles







. I'm just saying not every last one of our preferences is met in our relationships at all times. So if someone prefers a women with silky smooth legs s/he may or may not date someone who doesn't shave. It is all relative. It may just not be that big of a deal and the person can look past it.

Then again I think "perfect" is overrated but that's a whole other thing.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i actually think the instinct is to procreate... produce children etc. and the physical pleasure we get from sex makes this even more appealing.. or something along those lines.

rape is a toughie b/c it is about control. i would imagine that some who rapes another person (or animal for that matter) has had their own instincts warped in such a way that they are not able to respond to them appropriately.

I agree with both. Though I do think we are often times pleasure-driven.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I was just asking because your answer was sort of short and I didn't get the whole gist of what I tought you were trying to say. And I have to admit I still don't. I don't know what you mean by 'matching hypothesis' either.

And to Mag's answer for you:
I have had guy friend's who would literally NOT date a girl or even sleep with her if she had pubic hair AT ALL. I think the preferrence is stornger or weaker depending. To some guys it repulses them, skeeves them what have you. I do think people make decisions based on rdiculous things and this does happen to be one of them.
And no, I don't think everyone settles or compromises when choosing a mate. I have several girlfriends who are still single because they are looking for MR./Ms. perfect. Is that what you meant, Mag?

Matching hypothesis---a psychological and sociological theory that has suggestions as to why people become attracted to their partner. While its mostly used to show the effects of attractiveness, it is also used to show how similar attitudes, age, culture, education and values affect a potential relationship. Reciprocity is powerful.

When I said I wouldn't hold it against someone, I meant just that. I don't necessarily have to like/agree with everything someone else does, do I?

Anyways, I've never met a girl who didn't shave (legs.) Guys who have a preference for no pubic hair is a result of the media, pornography, etc. I think that a woman with absolutely no pubic hair looks pre-pubescent, in all honesty.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:

Anyways, I've never met a girl who didn't shave (legs.) Guys who have a preference for no pubic hair is a result of the media, pornography, etc. I think that a woman with absolutely no pubic hair looks pre-pubescent, in all honesty.
I agree with your feelings on shaved pubic hair but again I think it is unfair to say ALL men prefer no pubic hair because of the media and such. Sure a lot do, no doubt but there are those who prefer it for other reasons and as mamas have stated on this very thread women themselves shave down bellow for reasons beyond societal conditioning- namely comfort and sexual pleasure.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

BTW, *sisteeesmama*, I still like you lots even if you are getting tired of me







I have enjoyed our conversation here!








:


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I found it really interesting that for pretty much most of my adult life I tended to be attracted towards more fine featured, smooth faced (no stubble or shadow), slender, less hairy men. My friends were all shocked when I married DH, who is...um...really extremely hairy, barrel chested, and gets a shadow within 2 hours or shaving.







I did have visual and tactile preferences for a really long time, but DH's scent kind of overrode all of those for me (well, and of course his personality and character, but to be totally honest, our intial meeting it was not either of those things--I've never experienced such a world-and-time-stopping visceral attraction to someone ever before or since!). I have heard stories of people who suddenly fell in love and paired up with people who weren't their "type", I wonder if something similar happened?

So I do think society has input, but sometimes there are other things that can definitely override what even the person has decided is "attractive". For the longest time, I was attracted towards men who in stereotypical American society would not have been considered all that "manly". Maybe that was a reaction to culture as well, I don't know. I suppose rebelling against the cultural stereotype of attractiveness might be in a way still being under its power.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I agree with your feelings on shaved pubic hair but again I think it is unfair to say ALL men prefer no pubic hair because of the media and such. Sure a lot do, no doubt but there are those who prefer it for other reasons and as mamas have stated on this very thread women themselves shave down bellow for reasons beyond societal conditioning- namely comfort and sexual pleasure.

I didn't say "all", you did.









I'm pretty sure without those influences, guys might still have a preference.

Anyways, I've tried shaving myself down there...it itches.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Obviously I am not him but I find this question interesting. Doesn't everyone essentially "settle" in one for or another with their mate or even date? I mean I love beards but my DH doesn't really grow facial hair.

I wouldn't say "settle", but I have to agree. If I were to create my hypothetical "perfect" man, on a physical level, he'd have very little body hair, and the hair on his head would be close to his butt. DH is fairly hairy, and thinks his hair is too long when it gets past a buzz cut (okay - that's not quite true, but he wears it very short). I don't settle for him, though - I find him incredibly sexy. (I'm not huge on facial hair, either, but dh does wear a beard sometimes. I like his face the way it is without a beard...but at least with a beard, he looks old enough for me.)

re: shaving, in general. I've only seen the idea that female shaving is to make us look younger/pre-pubescent, etc. in the last few years. Growing up, I always assumed it was intended more to exaggerate the differences between men and women, because men tend to have a _lot_ more body hair. I never thought shaving made anybody look younger...

Someone mentioned the shaving and a certain look with respect to strip clubs. I can't even count that into normal day to day stuff, in some ways. Those guys are already _there_ to gawk at naked women. It's not an accurate mirror on normal male/female interactions, imo. I don't to get into UAVs, but dh quite likes that I shave, but it has little or nothing to do with how it _looks_, and he wouldn't bat an eyelash if I stopped (I have a few times...shaving down there is hard in late pregnancy).


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
I didn't say "all", you did.









I'm pretty sure without those influences, guys might still have a preference.

Anyways, I've tried shaving myself down there...it itches.









I don't usually shave my pubic area, but when I do, dh likes it because (I'm trying to say this w/o a UAV here














) because it is less irritating to his, um, tongue. There, I said it. It has nothing to do with how it looks, it just makes certain things easier.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
I didn't say "all", you did.









True but you did imply it with...

Quote:

Guys who have a preference for no pubic hair is a result of the media, pornography, etc.
Still I agree with the rest of what you said









Stormie~ re: "settle" I wanted to find a better word but just couldn't seem to so I used "". I still am trying to think up a better word...


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I don't usually shave my pubic area, but when I do, dh likes it because (I'm trying to say this w/o a UAV here














) because it is less irritating to his, um, tongue. There, I said it. It has nothing to do with how it looks, it just makes certain things easier.

It's a good thing that your decisions aren't bound by my opinions.









My girlfriend does actually trim and shave sometimes. My whole point was my opinion shouldn't matter.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
True but you did imply it with...

Wasn't intentional, sorry. But it did get some attention, so that's good.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Stormie~ re: "settle" I wanted to find a better word but just couldn't seem to so I used "". I still am trying to think up a better word...

Yeah - I know what you mean. When I replied, I was trying to find a good word, too. DH is _nothing_ like the guys I used to check out...not even a little bit. But, he definitely does it for me. (And, I don't even know what guys I would check out these days. I don't seem to do that much, anymore.)


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If I were to create my hypothetical "perfect" man, on a physical level, he'd have very little body hair, *and the hair on his head would be close to his butt.*

I got the strangest visual in my head for a split second until my brain caught up to the fact that you just meant long hair.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yeah - I know what you mean. When I replied, I was trying to find a good word, too. DH is _nothing_ like the guys I used to check out...not even a little bit. But, he definitely does it for me. (And, I don't even know what guys I would check out these days. I don't seem to do that much, anymore.)

Ha -- I know what you mean. I saw a guy the other day who was exactly the look I used to go for, and I thought, "Hmm, I would have been gaga over him 15 years ago. Ew."







My DH is different in many ways from what I would have said was my "type" as a young adult, but his traits are the ones I find attractive now.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I got the strangest visual in my head for a split second until my brain caught up to the fact that you just meant long hair.
















Is that what she meant? That changes my whole mental image.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
I got the strangest visual in my head for a split second until my brain caught up to the fact that you just meant long hair.

























Yeah...I really like long hair on guys...I think...I'm not sure, because of this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Ha -- I know what you mean. I saw a guy the other day who was exactly the look I used to go for, and I thought, "Hmm, I would have been gaga over him 15 years ago. Ew."







My DH is different in many ways from what I would have said was my "type" as a young adult, but his traits are the ones I find attractive now.

The few times a guy catches my eye these days, it's usually someone who looks a lot like dh.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Well, to be fair---you don't go looking for a partner like you would look for a car.







It really isn't that surprising that people compromise (is that a better word than "settle?")


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I don't usually shave my pubic area, but when I do, dh likes it because (I'm trying to say this w/o a UAV here














) because it is less irritating to his, um, tongue. There, I said it. It has nothing to do with how it looks, it just makes certain things easier.

my dp is this way as well.

i wonder how shaving pubic hair started. it would be awfully hard for men to prefer 'it' shaved before anyone had actually done it. if no one shaved how would they prefer it if they did? i would think you would have to have experienced both before you could prefer one over the other.

here's a little teen sex TMI i used to shave all the time in high school b/c i was self conscious about my b/f seeing my pubic hair. it was fairly common 'knowledge' among my peers (if my mother had known she would have disagreed but i would have ignored her.. b/c well... she wasn't 17) that guys thought pubic hair was gross.

one day my high school b/c finally asked me not to shave b/c he wanted to know what that was like. as it turns out he preferred unshaved.. go figure.. after all that worrying and razor burn.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
my dp is this way as well.

i wonder how shaving pubic hair started. it would be awfully hard for men to prefer 'it' shaved before anyone had actually done it. if no one shaved how would they prefer it if they did? i would think you would have to have experienced both before you could prefer one over the other.

here's a little teen sex TMI i used to shave all the time in high school b/c i was self conscious about my b/f seeing my pubic hair. it was fairly common 'knowledge' among my peers (if my mother had known she would have disagreed but i would have ignored her.. b/c well... she wasn't 17) that guys thought pubic hair was gross.

one day my high school b/c finally asked me not to shave b/c he wanted to know what that was like. as it turns out he preferred unshaved.. go figure.. after all that worrying and razor burn.









I started shaving mine younger then that because of the clumps that got stuck in there. Trimming is efficient, but it's hard to keep that perfect length that doesn't itch or get clumps stuck in it.

And FTR I can't even remember the last time I had sex so I'm not doing it so it looks good for anyone else.


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## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I was just asking because your answer was sort of short and I didn't get the whole gist of what I tought you were trying to say. And I have to admit I still don't. I don't know what you mean by 'matching hypothesis' either.

And to Mag's answer for you:
I have had guy friend's who would literally NOT date a girl or even sleep with her if she had pubic hair AT ALL. I think the preferrence is stornger or weaker depending. To some guys it repulses them, skeeves them what have you. I do think people make decisions based on rdiculous things and this does happen to be one of them.
And no, I don't think everyone settles or compromises when choosing a mate. I have several girlfriends who are still single because they are looking for MR./Ms. perfect. Is that what you meant, Mag?

I don't know any guys like that, I guess I'm lucky, but I don't think I could be friends with people who treated women that way







I get the whole initial attraction thing, but if the guy is saying on the first date "do you shave down there" or if the guy is going to break up with a girl a month or however long later when they love each other enough to sleep with each other then that is just not a good quality in my eyes. So really, I would think they either 1) would date a women with pubic hair, just break up with her once they find out she has some or 2) are asking in advance if they have pubic hair as part of a dating requirement and if so who the heck is dating these guys?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

maybe i should buy a beard trimmer... i don't think DP would want me to use his. he doesn't like it when i steel his razors either


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i wonder how shaving pubic hair started.

Hygiene. And before anyone gets on my case for implying that to not shave is bad hygiene, that's not what I'm saying. But that there have been and/or are places on this planet where soap and spare water are not that readily accessible and where anything that helps to trap moisture in that area can help to encourage yeasts and such (which is why I shave, incidentally, being predisposed even in the era of grocery aisles full of soap), it definitely *can* be a pretty widespread hygiene issue.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

if soap and water are not easily accessible how do you shave?? wouldn't it hurt like he!!?

and also.. for pube hating men... do they ask a girl when the meet her or do they shame her until she shaves or break up with her if she doesnt?

man1 - jane this is john, john this is jane
jane- hi, nice to meet you
john - do you shave your pubic hair?
Jane - yes
John- nice to meet you too. would you like to see my a$$hole membership card?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Hygiene. And before anyone gets on my case for implying that to not shave is bad hygiene, that's not what I'm saying. But that there have been and/or are places on this planet where soap and spare water are not that readily accessible and where anything that helps to trap moisture in that area can help to encourage yeasts and such (which is why I shave, incidentally, being predisposed even in the era of grocery aisles full of soap), it definitely *can* be a pretty widespread hygiene issue.











And as for how someone would know they wanted it shaved well I imagine if he is having difficulty whilst down there the thought would occur to him and perhaps his partner that the hair was in the way. The next logical step would be to get rid of it, right?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if soap and water are not easily accessible how do you shave?? wouldn't it hurt like he!!?

and also.. for pube hating men... do they ask a girl when the meet her or do they shame her until she shaves or break up with her if she doesnt?

man1 - jane this is john, john this is jane
jane- hi, nice to meet you
john - do you shave your pubic hair?
Jane - yes
John- nice to meet you too. would you like to see my a$$hole membership card?









:

I actually only shave with water. I haven't shaved with soap or anything like it in years. But without water it can be done just not so comfortable.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I love the smell of a healthy persons natural scent but I think you have to be eating right and getting lots of water not to smell weird. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but most people I like the smell of do eat very well.

I also do not like unnatural smells like chemically deodorants or body washes and I don't even like the taste of really minty toothpaste, I prefer no flavor or something more mild like calendula. I just really don't like fake-y smells or tastes, although I don't really know anyone else besides my hubs who feels that way about body washes and stuff.









You're not the only one. I also think smoking/alcohol and other toxins contribute to a foul body odor.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
I think the thing is that they DON'T want us to appear as children, they want us to appear as young _teenagers_; young and naive and virginal but with perky breasts, rounds bottoms and not much by way of pubic hair.

In some respects, I think it's true that some men want women who look like teens, partly because a teenage looking person may seem to not have developed a strong sense of self yet, partly because they seem healthy and vibrant and strong. However, when it comes to pubic hair, I don't see how the conclusion is being made that teenagers have less pubic hair than adults. Because I don't have more as an adult than I had as a teenager. (Teenager = 13-19 years old)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I started shaving mine younger then that because of the clumps that got stuck in there. Trimming is efficient, but it's hard to keep that perfect length that doesn't itch or get clumps stuck in it.

Seriously, I have to ask... what clumps? I'm at a loss and the visuals I keep getting... I just don't know what clumps of what could possibly get stuck in pubic hair. I thought, maybe she means toilet paper fuzzies, but I don't wipe my pubic hair because I don't get urine up there when I go pee. Then I thought, maybe clumps is in reference to heavy menstruation, but my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how those 'clumps 'would move upwards and get caught up in pubic hair. ??? I'm just confused, I guess with the clump reference.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 









And as for how someone would know they wanted it shaved well I imagine if he is having difficulty whilst down there the thought would occur to him and perhaps his partner that the hair was in the way. The next logical step would be to get rid of it, right?

I've never had anyone tell me my pubic hair got in the way or oral activities. And again, I can't imagine how it could.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommysarah5* 
I don't know any guys like that, I guess I'm lucky, but I don't think I could be friends with people who treated women that way







I get the whole initial attraction thing, but if the guy is saying on the first date "do you shave down there" or if the guy is going to break up with a girl a month or however long later when they love each other enough to sleep with each other then that is just not a good quality in my eyes. So really, I would think they either 1) would date a women with pubic hair, just break up with her once they find out she has some or 2) are asking in advance if they have pubic hair as part of a dating requirement and if so who the heck is dating these guys?

Well some of em get a lot of action(and there actually are a lot of girls/women who shave down there) and then some of are just wishin they were getting action and that would be the requirement if they were, lol!

I know this because I know a lot of the girls that have cycled through.

And yes, it is sad, it is kinda gross and it does make you wonder.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 







:

I actually only shave with water. I haven't shaved with soap or anything like it in years. But without water it can be done just not so comfortable.

but if you can't get soap and water how do you get razors? i mean i understand the reasons i just don't understand how razors would be more accessible then soap and water.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
if soap and water are not easily accessible how do you shave?? wouldn't it hurt like he!!?

and also.. for pube hating men... do they ask a girl when the meet her or do they shame her until she shaves or break up with her if she doesnt?

man1 - jane this is john, john this is jane
jane- hi, nice to meet you
john - do you shave your pubic hair?
Jane - yes
John- nice to meet you too. would you like to see my a$$hole membership card?

Hey, no argument here, lol! I think it's totally asshole behavior. But as always we must remember that these guys are more than this one little asshole behavior......if they weren't I wouldn't have liked them.


----------



## syn_ack89 (Oct 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Seriously, I have to ask... what clumps? I'm at a loss and the visuals I keep getting... I just don't know what clumps of what could possibly get stuck in pubic hair. I thought, maybe she means toilet paper fuzzies, but I don't wipe my pubic hair because I don't get urine up there when I go pee. Then I thought, maybe clumps is in reference to heavy menstruation, but again, my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how it would move upwards. So, again, what clumps?

I've never had anyone tell me my pubic hair got in the way or oral activites. And again, I can't imagine how it could.

All I have to say is that apparently some people's hair is longer than yours...when mine is untrimmed it is DEFINITELY something that would catch menstruation. And as a user of large amounts of toilet paper (I KNOW that I unroll and use too much), bits of paper can get in there.

And yes, it HAS gotten in the way "at other times". You may not be able to imagine, but it DOES happen!


----------



## purplepaperclip (May 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 







me, too.

In some respects, I think it's true that some men want women who look like teens, partly because they may seem to not have developed a strong sense of self yet, partly because they seem healthy and vibrant and strong still. However, when it comes to pubic hair, I don't see how the conclusion is being made that teenagers have less pubic hair than adults. Because I don't have more as an adult than I had as a teenager. (Teenager = 13-19 years old)

Seriously, I have to ask... what clumps? I'm at a loss and the visuals I keep getting... I just don't know what clumps of what could possibly get stuck in pubic hair. I thought, maybe she means toilet paper fuzzies, but I don't wipe my pubic hair because I don't get urine up there when I go pee. Then I thought, maybe clumps is in reference to heavy menstruation, but again, *my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening*, so I still can't see how it would move upwards. So, again, what clumps?

*I've never had anyone tell me my pubic hair got in the way or oral activites. And again, I can't imagine how it could*.

Do you suppose it is possible that there are people out there with vastly more pubic hair than you?


----------



## Zenful (Jun 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls.

That she doesn't have to conform to society's gender roles like 'smooth big breasted sexy kitten girl' and what not.

Are you sure you're not trying to shame those who shave? Your words are very judgmental and biased. Maybe those who shave don't share in your ideas of what it means to them to shave...it's not always a sexual thing (but it certainly sounds like it is for you with your candid description of why others enjoy your pubic hair







). Plenty of women shave because they enjoy how it looks for THEMSELVES or possibly how it feels (not necessarily sexually). I'm not trying to debate the merits of shaving...just pointing out that you sound like you're doing the very thing you said you don't want to do (shame people).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama*
I want to instill in her the idea that she is already created perfectly by God in his image.

How can God be male and yet create a woman out of HIS image? I'm just trying to figure out your logic here...


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 







me, too.

Seriously, I have to ask... what clumps? I'm at a loss and the visuals I keep getting... I just don't know what clumps of what could possibly get stuck in pubic hair. I thought, maybe she means toilet paper fuzzies, but I don't wipe my pubic hair because I don't get urine up there when I go pee. Then I thought, maybe clumps is in reference to heavy menstruation, but again, my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how it would move upwards. So, again, what clumps?

I've never had anyone tell me my pubic hair got in the way or oral activites. And again, I can't imagine how it could.


Honestly? I'm thinking I must have way more/longer pubic hair than you do. Unless it's trimmed or shaved, there would be no way for me to pee without getting urine on my hair. And my hair really clumps up during my period or after birth bleeding - not even clumps of tissue, just the blood drying on it like glue. And, uh, I can't imagine my hair not getting in the way of oral activities.


----------



## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 

However, when it comes to pubic hair, I don't see how the conclusion is being made that teenagers have less pubic hair than adults. Because I don't have more as an adult than I had as a teenager. (Teenager = 13-19 years old)

I don't wipe my pubic hair because I don't get urine up there when I go pee. my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how it would move upwards.

I've never had anyone tell me my pubic hair got in the way or oral activites. And again, I can't imagine how it could.

Your statements here answer your first question for me. If your pubic hair is no where near you vaginal opening and can't get in the way of oral activities then consider yourself lucky and "teenlike"







. For many of us our pubes increased into adulthood and aren't neatly contained to the area "upwards".


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
but if you can't get soap and water how do you get razors? i mean i understand the reasons i just don't understand how razors would be more accessible then soap and water.

Sharp rocks, I would think.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I don't know how accurate this is, but it's an interesting read
http://www.quikshave.com/timeline.htm


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
but if you can't get soap and water how do you get razors? i mean i understand the reasons i just don't understand how razors would be more accessible then soap and water.

But you don't have to have a Gillet to shave, ykwim? It has been done even in ancient Egypt so I am sure there are several things you can sharpen and use.

*The rest is pretty TMI, folks!*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Seriously, I have to ask... what clumps? I'm at a loss and the visuals I keep getting... I just don't know what clumps of what could possibly get stuck in pubic hair. I thought, maybe she means toilet paper fuzzies, but I don't wipe my pubic hair because I don't get urine up there when I go pee. Then I thought, maybe clumps is in reference to heavy menstruation, but my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how those 'clumps 'would move upwards and get caught up in pubic hair. ??? I'm just confused, I guess with the clump reference.

Discharge. Ok so I am not who you are asking but I understand what she is saying as I have experienced it. When mine goes unkempt ***TMI TMI TMI*** it gets matted up especially when pregnant or on my period. I trim, though, not shave. It still gets matted but not as badly.

Quote:

I've never had anyone tell me my pubic hair got in the way or oral activities. And again, I can't imagine how it could.
Then you must not have a lot







Seriously for some of us it's a lion's mane. Hence why I trim.

I just reread your post and this stuck out to me...

Quote:

but my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how those 'clumps 'would move upwards and get caught up in pubic hair. ???
You are one lucky gal!







Again I don't think you have a lot naturally because mine is all up in my business when I don't trim. It even causes me discomfort and the itchies and all that because there is so much it gets into every nook and cranny.


----------



## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zenful* 

How can God be male and yet create a woman out of HIS image? I'm just trying to figure out your logic here...

Wow, you're seriously going to try to turn this into a debate of someone's spiritual beliefs?







:


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Your statements here answer your first question for me. If your pubic hair is no where near you vaginal opening and can't get in the way of oral activities then consider yourself lucky and "teenlike"







. For many of us our pubes increased into adulthood and aren't neatly contained to the area "upwards".











I hadn't realized so many people had already answered









ETA- and re: "teenlike" woah! The last time my pube was that short was just before I started my period at 9. I was pretty darn hairy in my teens, too. Again I think that's why this whole haireless= teenlike is so confusing to me. I'm just one hairy gal I guess!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
Then I thought, maybe clumps is in reference to heavy menstruation, but my pubic hair is nowhere near my vaginal opening, so I still can't see how those 'clumps 'would move upwards and get caught up in pubic hair. ??? I'm just confused, I guess with the clump reference.

Well..._way_ back when I started to shave there ( I was about 14...so roughly 27 years ago), I was still using pads. There was no question of the clumps "moving", but they were squished up against my pubic area, so...yeah - ick.


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

continuing with the TMI theme...big time TMI btw

um yeah i am with mags on the clump thing. i have the same problem. i have a friend with almost now pubic hair... i wish i were that lucky. i have a lot ... as in per square inch and surface area covered. it sort of goes down onto my inner thighs (hence the bathing suit problem) and right up to my c section scar and way far back over my ermm yeah ok wow awkward. and um its not just on the outside... o god i can't believe i am typing this. i always wondered if i am the only one who has pubic hair on the underside of my labia not just the outside.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
But you don't have to have a Gillet to shave, ykwim? It has been done even in ancient Egypt so I am sure there are several things you can sharpen and use.

*The rest is pretty TMI, folks!*

Discharge. Ok so I am not who you are asking but I understand what she is saying as I have experienced it. When mine goes unkempt ***TMI TMI TMI*** it gets matted up especially when pregnant or on my period. I trim, though, not shave. It still gets matted but not as badly.

Then you must not have a lot







Seriously for some of us it's a lion's mane. Hence why I trim.

I just reread your post and this stuck out to me...

You are one lucky gal!







Again I don't think you have a lot naturally because mine is all up in my business when I don't trim. It even causes me discomfort and the itchies and all that because there is so much it gets into every nook and cranny.


Thanks mags, for clarifying. I really had no idea. I only have my own body as a point of reference, after all. I was just all confused for a sec.


----------



## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I wonder if the males who were contributing to the conversation have run for the hills yet.







:


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I wonder if the males who were contributing to the conversation have run for the hills yet.







:

I was just thinking the same thing, in almost the exact same terms...


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 









I hadn't realized so many people had already answered









ETA- and re: "teenlike" woah! The last time my pube was that short was just before I started my period at 9. I was pretty darn hairy in my teens, too. Again I think that's why this whole haireless= teenlike is so confusing to me. I'm just one hairy gal I guess!









i have very fine blonde hair everywhere except my legs (i think this is from shaving... it is still blonde just darker and not as fine) and my pubic hair..which is the polar opposite of fine and blonde.


----------



## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
continuing with the TMI theme...big time TMI btw

um yeah i am with mags on the clump thing. i have the same problem. i have a friend with almost now pubic hair... i wish i were that lucky. i have a lot ... as in per square inch and surface area covered. it sort of goes down onto my inner thighs (hence the bathing suit problem) and right up to my c section scar and way far back over my ermm yeah ok wow awkward. and um its not just on the outside... o god i can't believe i am typing this. i always wondered if i am the only one who has pubic hair on the underside of my labia not just the outside.









You are not alone
















Katreena~ I understand! Glad my post wasn't....uh.... too much







The only reason I know that I have more than some is because my mother and grandmother had probably as much as you. They are the same people I talked about upthread who have (had in my gma's case







) the thin and soft body hair that was barely darker than their own skin.


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I wonder if the males who were contributing to the conversation have run for the hills yet.







:

i was thinking the same thing. i was wondering if transitioning from shaving pubic hair in general to the finer points of personal pube maintenance in relation to discharge and menstruation had been a bit much.


----------



## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

By clumps, I was thinking "clots". Some of us do have big/a lot of them. There are various ways of dealing with it that you don't have to shave I guess, but on the days when I'm using my cloth pads vs. my Diva, and I can't run to the bathroom every time I pass a bunch, they do tend to dry quickly. It still hurts getting them off even short pubic hair, but at least if I trim the areas where they collect the most, I'm not yanking out 5 or 6 hairs at once which kind of hurts. Also, since I normally get an inkling about 12 hours before I start, I trim and then immediately am wearing my cloth pads, so that eliminates the itchy/stabby sensation of just cut hair, at least for me--and by the time my period's over 3 days later it's softened.

Once I trimmed in the middle of my cycle because I was bored that day and man, the fresh-cut ends drove me itchy crazy. I dunno how other folks stand it, I could see how some people might go shorter than I do in order to keep the stabbies to a minimum.

I think it's helpful to remind folks that pubic hair and labia and hair pattern are really very different from woman to woman. So just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm profoudly grateful to have for a time gone regular hot tubbing/sauna bathing with a group of friends of all ages, sizes...it really opened my eyes to how different women's bodies are, up until that point the only ones I'd see were mine and the people on the film screen.

You don't have to be especially hairy to have the dried-clots problem though. I am EXTREMELY sparsely body-haired, but I pass a ton of large and medium clots and because of my shape they all seem to be channeled right up to where I do have public hair (which isn't very close to my vaginal opening either).

I guess I don't understand why someone would express disbelief that it could be a problem or annoyance for someone else!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Not running for the hills... Just learning a bit more about my fellow posters then I had ever expected.


----------



## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I wonder if the males who were contributing to the conversation have run for the hills yet.







:

I guess that means I should not read the rest of the posts...

and i think it was the OP who said women were created in G-d's image...the biblical story is the first woman was created from the rib of adam, just fyi.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
and by the time my period's over 3 days later...

3 days, 3 DAYS?!?!?!?

sooooo jealous right now! LOL Mine has always been at least a week if not more.


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Not running for the hills... Just learning a bit more about my fellow posters then I had ever expected.









you'll be really really prepared should the subject ever come up.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

That I will...


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

If I don't keep my pubic hair very short I have constant matting problems all the time, not just during my period. As my friend once tactfully (*cough*) described herself, some of us are very "juicy". By the end of a day with much physical activity I have a solid stiff chunk of pubic hair that I can't even wash well without yanking out a bunch of hairs. It _sucks._ I don't shave daily because then I get lots of ingrown hairs, but I do it every so often so that the hairs stay fairly short. I've tried to just trim and then I cut myself because I'm special.


----------



## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 
3 days, 3 DAYS?!?!?!?

sooooo jealous right now! LOL Mine has always been at least a week if not more.

Yeah, I count myself very fortunate. I have extremely heavy periods, tons of clots, vomit-inducing painful cramps on occasion, ect...but I can do anything for 3 days! I'm also on a 32 day cycle. ;> I might trade a longer period to lose the extreme cramps BUT OTOH most of the women I know with long periods have cramps just as bad as mine, as well as clotting just like mine, with a shorter cycle so...all in all, I'm pretty lucky I think!


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Even though this thread has had its ups and downs I love where it has ended up! And also love that the men have stuck around!
And I'm not sick of you, Mag, you're really smart and quite a thinker


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
But you don't have to have a Gillet to shave, ykwim? It has been done even in ancient Egypt so I am sure there are several things you can sharpen and use.


The earliest razor I could locate in a short span of time was from 2000BC and made from bronze.


----------



## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
If I don't keep my pubic hair very short I have constant matting problems all the time, not just during my period. As my friend once tactfully (*cough*) described herself, some of us are very "juicy". By the end of a day with much physical activity I have a solid stiff chunk of pubic hair that I can't even wash well without yanking out a bunch of hairs. It _sucks._ I don't shave daily because then I get lots of ingrown hairs, but I do it every so often so that the hairs stay fairly short. I've tried to just trim and then I cut myself because I'm special.










this is me. just my regular discharge will get clumped up and it dries very quickly, by time I go to the bathroom I had this har dry clump that rips the hair out when you try to remove it (and sorry, but leaving it there just aint an option for me!) I support I can wash every time I go to the bathroom - but why when I can just trim. trim once a week or sit in the bath every time I go to the bathroom... seemed an easy choice given my situation.

and my pubic hair covers my pubis and my labia entirely and also the insides of my legs.


----------



## Zenful (Jun 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Wow, you're seriously going to try to turn this into a debate of someone's spiritual beliefs?







:

She mentioned that she wants her daughter to not feel like a sex object or what have you...that, instead, she was created in the "image of God". The OP is the one who brought this up, not me. It sounds like there's wires getting crossed here, and I'd like to understand the logic of it (if there is any). What does God have to do or not to do with being a sex object? What does this have to do with shaving or not shaving?


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The earliest razor I could locate in a short span of time was from 2000BC and made from bronze.


I posted this up thread, but I think it got lost in all the TMI









History of shaving - http://www.quikshave.com/timeline.htm


----------



## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
but if you can't get soap and water how do you get razors? i mean i understand the reasons i just don't understand how razors would be more accessible then soap and water.

Hair removal isn't only shaving, either. I know a lot of people go all







: over the notion of waxing or such, but methods of pulling hairs out en mass have long been popular too.

My religion specifically advocates removing pubic and underarm hair at least once a month or so, for hygiene purposes and for attractiveness to one's spouse. Since the recommendation applies evenly to men and women it's kind of hard to make a case for it being about men wanting women to look prepubescent.







I have no idea what they were using to shave back in the day in the Arabian desert, but underarm hair specifically was just being plucked.


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i like that your religion specifies something like that.. and for both men and women







religions have been around a long time.. apparently they thought it was important enough to right down and make a rule. i wonder why they thought it was so important? i mean hygiene i get.. but the other part too.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
My religion specifically advocates removing pubic and underarm hair at least once a month or so, for hygiene purposes and for attractiveness to one's spouse. Since the recommendation applies evenly to men and women it's kind of hard to make a case for it being about men wanting women to look prepubescent.







I have no idea what they were using to shave back in the day in the Arabian desert, but underarm hair specifically was just being plucked.


The things I learn on MDC. . .


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

: isn't that the truth... i swear i learn more here in a month then i ever did in school.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I posted this up thread, but I think it got lost in all the TMI









History of shaving - http://www.quikshave.com/timeline.htm

Probably did. Thanks for pointing it out though.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i like that your religion specifies something like that.. and for both men and women







religions have been around a long time.. apparently they thought it was important enough to right down and make a rule. i wonder why they thought it was so important? i mean hygiene i get.. but the other part too.

Well... if you can't find anything through all the hair, then how are you going to have any fun?


----------



## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i like that your religion specifies something like that.. and for both men and women









My mom likes it too, mostly because she thinks armpit hair on men is seriously squicky. Any belief system that advises men to get rid of it is cool with her.


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

thread title : "super hairy DH are there any religions that mandate the removal of body hair any more than an inch long?"


----------



## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Well... if you can't find anything through all the hair, then how are you going to have any fun?


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
My mom likes it too, mostly because she thinks armpit hair on men is seriously squicky. Any belief system that advises men to get rid of it is cool with her.









I tend to think armpit hair on anyone is pretty squicky. And I have never heard the word "squick" in any form before coming to MDC.


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
And I have never heard the word "squick" in any form before coming to MDC.

Me neither. I wonder if it's a combination of squishy and icky... and wonder how hair is squishy.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

The clumps are squishy maybe?


----------



## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The clumps are squishy maybe?











I was thinking of armpit hair.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Then I have no clue, my armpit hair is invisible. Like I said it squicks me out.


----------



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
continuing with the TMI theme...big time TMI btw

um yeah i am with mags on the clump thing. i have the same problem. i have a friend with almost now pubic hair... i wish i were that lucky. i have a lot ... as in per square inch and surface area covered. it sort of goes down onto my inner thighs (hence the bathing suit problem) and right up to my c section scar and way far back over my ermm yeah ok wow awkward. and um its not just on the outside... o god i can't believe i am typing this. *i always wondered if i am the only one who has pubic hair on the underside of my labia not just the outside.*









Okay...I didn't know there was such a thing as pubic hair ONLY growing on the top portion of the labia....that's....that's just so strange or me to hear, that it would stop before it got to the "undercarriage" region!! I have it on top and wrapping around to the "underneath" part...I thought that was how it was supposed to be!









I've never had these clumping issues you other ladies speak of...sure, like maybe kind of stuck in the hair there...but not actually like, big clumps!

Oh man....ask me if I ever thought I'd type anything like this on the internet....


----------



## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

My response to all this is: so what!

People have tattooed, pierced, painted, altered their bodies throughout history. From prehistoric times to present day. People in Africa celebrate body art and alterations because it is a recognition of fertility and sexuality. Why is this wrong? Why do we encourage asexuality? I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of shaving is something propagated by T.V.? TV is a recent thing and suddenly it's responsible for all things anti-women? It is a commercial medium and it reaches a lot of people...but it is hardly the "reason." It is a medium by which society's standards are transmitted. Don't blame T.V....blame the society.

I'm a feminist and if I want to alter my body for reasons specific to my own ideals...then I'm going to do it...and I encourage DD to the same. I shave and no man has domination over me. I pierce my ears and I paint my nails. Am I doing it for a man? NOT! I do it because I love art and I think that each woman is an art unto herself. I do it because it makes me feel good about myself. So what if it happens to please men? Does that cancel its significance? If a man doesn't like what I do...then bollucks on him. I'll do what I want to do...even if I get criticized from women for "trying to please the man." I'm tired of trying to live up to everyone's standards...including the women who say I shouldn't pander to men. What do you know? You don't know anything about my intentions or DD's intentions.

People are afraid of females like Frida Kahlo because she wasn't afraid to express herself through her own body. I'm not going to be "grossed out" if DD decides to express herself through traditional or avant garde ways. I'm not going to set standards based on what I think is right. My standards could always be limiting.


----------



## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom* 
Same here. When dd has asked me about shaving, I tell her that some women do it and some don't. I've also told her that it's her decision to make whether or not to shave when she's older.

This is what my mom told me when I was in junior high. She also suggested I notice what the other girls/women around me were doing and think about what I wanted to do.

I shaved very rarely until I was an adult. The first time I shaved my armpits was for my wedding, and only because the dress was off-the shoulders and exposed that area. I'm also blessed with a husband that will let me do what I like with my body, hairy or not, made up or not. He's more likely to complain if I've put on too much makeup than too little







:

But I also practice a martial art, that includes discussion of pressure points. We had a workshop showing pressure points on our legs, which meant pulling our uniform pants up, and I felt uncomfortable with my unshaved legs among these shaved women. So now I shave legs and armpits, the parts that might be exposed in public, generally. I have no interest, desire, or reason to shave my privates.


----------



## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I found it really interesting that for pretty much most of my adult life I tended to be attracted towards more fine featured, smooth faced (no stubble or shadow), slender, less hairy men. My friends were all shocked when I married DH, who is...um...really extremely hairy, barrel chested, and gets a shadow within 2 hours or shaving.







I did have visual and tactile preferences for a really long time, but DH's scent kind of overrode all of those for me (well, and of course his personality and character, but to be totally honest, our intial meeting it was not either of those things--I've never experienced such a world-and-time-stopping visceral attraction to someone ever before or since!). I have heard stories of people who suddenly fell in love and paired up with people who weren't their "type", I wonder if something similar happened?

So I do think society has input, but sometimes there are other things that can definitely override what even the person has decided is "attractive". For the longest time, I was attracted towards men who in stereotypical American society would not have been considered all that "manly". Maybe that was a reaction to culture as well, I don't know. I suppose rebelling against the cultural stereotype of attractiveness might be in a way still being under its power.

To take your post at a tangent, dh shaved his beard off last night. Yesterday, he and our son went and had their hair shaved off. They came back from the barber looking like Marine recruits. I've been expecting this for some time now, tbh, as it has been hot and humid here. But it was still a shock to wake up this morning to a baby face. But I'll get used to it and still look forward to cooler weather when he will start to grow it back.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

ANd I guess to follow up....I should be true to the original intent of the thread and give my .02 on the shaving issue.

Well I didn't shave a lot growing up, my mother didn't, especially her "lady region"....it just wasn't a big deal. We always dressed nicely, appeared well groomed...but shaving didn't feel like a part of that I guess. I didn't pluck my eyebrows until after I was 18 and went to get my nails done for a special occasion and someone there said "You should really do something about..you know..THIS" and motioned over their eyebrow region, making a face like "seriously, I don't even know what to CALL what you have going on there" - I felt very sexy and groomed after having them waxed and that is the one hair removal that I do SOMEWHAT keep up with, that and my armpits...though, that is reaaaaally, over the last few years, starting to slip.

I just don't care...I never really have. I always looked at the girls in high school who had those perfectly smooth, shiny legs and thought "Jesus, that looks like a LOT of work" and sort of resigned myself to the fact that I would just never BE like that....couldn't do it, didn't have the skill or whatever....and decided not to try!

I used to try and keep up more with my legs and pubic hair, just trimming and keeping neat...but the legs, well...I don't know, I just feel like my hair is fine enough that as long as my legs are lotioned, maybe no body can tell? I don't knoww, maybe they can....but I kind of like my silky hairs...when the wind blows I can feel it on my legs better and I guess I think that's kind of cool.

Now, my vulva...that's a different story. I was always crummy at keeping it trim...again, just REALLY don't care enoughto be anal about it...but would try and make it "cute", you know, what with being generation "shaved and designed like a porn star" and all.....I guess I felt some duty to pretend to care. But then I got pregnant with DD.

During my pregnancy...I felt my power growing. I couldn't even begin to fully understand or explain what that even MEANS....but it was like, my Vagina Awesomeness Sequence was triggered...as I counted down to the day I would finally meet my first child...somewhere inside, another kind of countdown was taking place...a countdown to the day I would realize my true power as a woman, the day my vagina would reveal to me, what it really is, show me her "stuff" so to speak. I stopped trimming at all during this time and couldn't exactly pinpoint why...it just felt incredibly disrespectful to me...she was like a beast in waiting,I felt that for privacey sake, I needed to grow a coat, not to shield her from view, so much as provide some privacey, for the "big day". I liked how long it got and though my husbands eyes grew wide at catching a glimse of her in full day light...and he would occasionally make comments...it kind of thrilled me that he was so amazed...my vagina really started to look like something else, I'll tell ya! It was almost like it began to LOOK to him, as powerful as I felt it was becoming!

Then I gave birth...and I became like some sort of sorceress! The day I birthed my baby, I realized my POWER! I came into my true, femenine magic. That day completely changed me, the way Isaw myself and my relationships with my vagina, FOREVER. My vagina just knocked my socks off! Suddenly this issue of shaving didn't even seem like it was UP to me....my vagina became this very, very powerful force...almost too powerful to really belong to me. I birthed my baby, and it was like my vagina had become some portal to the universe...this being came OUT of me, through this place I had always had, but never had a true sense of!!

SO....I don't like to shave my lady parts now. They are sacred and I think, it's not so much a patch of hair for me now...it's more like a wizards cloak. To trim her...maybe, maybe at some point, if she gets REALLY unruly....I went a little crazy when my DD was a coupe of months old and I cut off my head hair and a lot of my vulva hair...that was no good. I felt a bit sick at it. I mean, it's like chopping off the cloak of a mighty wizard!! Imagine, a mighty, all powerful wizard...running through life all naked and scraggly looking!! No, no...I don't want to cut it again. It's long and silky and wild looking and it seems fitting....because I feel like a REAL woman now...like magic and femenine mystery...it's not mysterious if you can SEE it, you know?

As for my darling daughter....she will see my crazy body hair, like I saw my mothers. I'm not sure what she'll do. Maybe, like I did, she'll apply some effort to trying to fit the more social norm of semi-hairlessnes. But then, she'll be unlike me in many ways...raised in the woods, probably not attending public school, etc...and maybe she will never venture into that world. But I know for me, it took a realization of my true femenine self, a realization that for me, my power lies in a different place than I thought...not in my ability to maintain my physical self to an ouside stndard....but in recognizing my TRUE physical self and jus letting it be....I can SHOW her th before she is meant to see it...I can't TEACH her that, before she can know it..so, I'll support her in all phases of her femenine self....whatever that means, however it manifests....and, as in most things, hope that she can know her true self one day. I want her to be, who it is she should be....I want her to feel powerful.

I know that in a lot of ways, the power I felt in my younger days, I had to seek out power from external sources. I felt powerful, in a pair of sharp, tall high heels...strutting in my knee length pencil skirt, feeling retro and cool, with it's high waste and my buttoned up blouse. I felt powerful in my femenine self, then, when my face was glowing and looked scrubbed, with perfect makeup...sexy lips and a push up bra. My power came from those sources. Now...it's different. Now, I look at myself naked in the mirror...and I see lines like lightening, zig zagging across my belly...large, slightly flappy breasts from feeding....long wild hair falling to where I'm certain my nipples used to be....I think I'll need to grow it another few inches to get them to where they are now!! And, my crazy vagina cloak....and I'm certain, taking this all in, my raw femenine power...which now comes from deep within me, that the only reason I wear clothes, is because anyone who would lay eyes on this powerful body and vagina of mine...might faint and die, it is very overwhelming to behold!!!

~~~~~***********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now....so far as my sexual relationship with DH and hair is concerned....my husband is a very very delightfully hairy man. He has a PERFECT amount of hair. On his chest, mmm, and on his face. He has been growing a bit more facial hair these last few years, keeping a bit of a beard going and it's very appealing to me, though I've never been attracted to facial hair in the past. Any scratching or roughness it might bring during, ahem, "grown-up" interactions...well, it adds to the effect, so far as I'm concerned!

This post not editted for spelling, etc..sorry.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Nobody is saying shaving is responsible for all the ills of the world - that is silly and insulting to those of us who choose not to shave and who have expressed the issues we have with it. Nor does not shaving erase sexuality, in fact I would say that it is shaving that would erase sexuality, since body hair is an adult, sexual characteristic.

It doesn't have to be SUCH a big deal. I don't think any of us who choose not to shave are hating on those who do. We simply choose not to do it, for the reasons stated. And I personally plan to let my child know my opinion when she asks, and if she wants to shave, that is totally fine with me. I hardly think I have the market cornered on the right thing to do, and in fact I'm sure her generation will look at ours as limited re: gender performance, as we look to the generation before us as limited.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

AverysMomma, yours are the only epic-length posts I read. You've got some serious passion, woman!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
AverysMomma, yours are the only epic-length posts I read. You've got some serious passion, woman!









Thanks...I reaaaally love my vagina.

Sorry for the length, concise is not a word anyone of sound mind would apply to my thoughts/writings. It's plagued me all my life.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Thanks...I reaaaally love my vagina.

I hadn't gotten that vibe at all!
















Quote:

Sorry for the length, concise is not a word anyone of sound mind would apply to my thoughts/writings. It's plagued me all my life.
















: You crack me up!


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## Jarynsmommy (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
My response to all this is: so what!

People have tattooed, pierced, painted, altered their bodies throughout history. From prehistoric times to present day. People in Africa celebrate body art and alterations because it is a recognition of fertility and sexuality. Why is this wrong? Why do we encourage asexuality? I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of shaving is something propagated by T.V.? TV is a recent thing and suddenly it's responsible for all things anti-women? It is a commercial medium and it reaches a lot of people...but it is hardly the "reason." It is a medium by which society's standards are transmitted. Don't blame T.V....blame the society.

I'm a feminist and if I want to alter my body for reasons specific to my own ideals...then I'm going to do it...and I encourage DD to the same. I shave and no man has domination over me. I pierce my ears and I paint my nails. Am I doing it for a man? NOT! I do it because I love art and I think that each woman is an art unto herself. I do it because it makes me feel good about myself. So what if it happens to please men? Does that cancel its significance? If a man doesn't like what I do...then bollucks on him. I'll do what I want to do...even if I get criticized from women for "trying to please the man." I'm tired of trying to live up to everyone's standards...including the women who say I shouldn't pander to men. What do you know? You don't know anything about my intentions or DD's intentions.

People are afraid of females like Frida Kahlo because she wasn't afraid to express herself through her own body. I'm not going to be "grossed out" if DD decides to express herself through traditional or avant garde ways. I'm not going to set standards based on what I think is right. My standards could always be limiting.


Amen sister... I couldn't have said it any better. I shave... my legs, my pits and ALL of my pubic hair. I do it because I want to not for a man. I have been single for almost a year and I still shave just as often. I personally fell gross if I have alot of body hair.. especially down there. However I don't think another woman is crazy or gross for not shaving. To each his own ya know. I don't have a daughter but if I did, I would let it be her decision whether she wanted to shave or not. I wouldn't tell her it's gross either way or that women shave for men or any of the other things I have heard. Good Lord people can even make shaving stereotypica lol... big surprise huh? I think the best thing to do for those that have daughters would be to give a variety of reason for both sides but not use degrading words or opinions


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## bella_stranger (Nov 2, 2006)

oops misquoted.


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## bella_stranger (Nov 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
ANd I guess to follow up....I should be true to the original intent of the thread and give my .02 on the shaving issue.

Well I didn't shave a lot growing up, my mother didn't, especially her "lady region"....it just wasn't a big deal. We always dressed nicely, appeared well groomed...but shaving didn't feel like a part of that I guess. I didn't pluck my eyebrows until after I was 18 and went to get my nails done for a special occasion and someone there said "You should really do something about..you know..THIS" and motioned over their eyebrow region, making a face like "seriously, I don't even know what to CALL what you have going on there" - I felt very sexy and groomed after having them waxed and that is the one hair removal that I do SOMEWHAT keep up with, that and my armpits...though, that is reaaaaally, over the last few years, starting to slip.

I just don't care...I never really have. I always looked at the girls in high school who had those perfectly smooth, shiny legs and thought "Jesus, that looks like a LOT of work" and sort of resigned myself to the fact that I would just never BE like that....couldn't do it, didn't have the skill or whatever....and decided not to try!

I used to try and keep up more with my legs and pubic hair, just trimming and keeping neat...but the legs, well...I don't know, I just feel like my hair is fine enough that as long as my legs are lotioned, maybe no body can tell? I don't knoww, maybe they can....but I kind of like my silky hairs...when the wind blows I can feel it on my legs better and I guess I think that's kind of cool.

Now, my vulva...that's a different story. I was always crummy at keeping it trim...again, just REALLY don't care enoughto be anal about it...but would try and make it "cute", you know, what with being generation "shaved and designed like a porn star" and all.....I guess I felt some duty to pretend to care. But then I got pregnant with DD.

During my pregnancy...I felt my power growing. I couldn't even begin to fully understand or explain what that even MEANS....but it was like, my Vagina Awesomeness Sequence was triggered...as I counted down to the day I would finally meet my first child...somewhere inside, another kind of countdown was taking place...a countdown to the day I would realize my true power as a woman, the day my vagina would reveal to me, what it really is, show me her "stuff" so to speak. I stopped trimming at all during this time and couldn't exactly pinpoint why...it just felt incredibly disrespectful to me...she was like a beast in waiting,I felt that for privacey sake, I needed to grow a coat, not to shield her from view, so much as provide some privacey, for the "big day". I liked how long it got and though my husbands eyes grew wide at catching a glimse of her in full day light...and he would occasionally make comments...it kind of thrilled me that he was so amazed...my vagina really started to look like something else, I'll tell ya! It was almost like it began to LOOK to him, as powerful as I felt it was becoming!

Then I gave birth...and I became like some sort of sorceress! The day I birthed my baby, I realized my POWER! I came into my true, femenine magic. That day completely changed me, the way Isaw myself and my relationships with my vagina, FOREVER. My vagina just knocked my socks off! Suddenly this issue of shaving didn't even seem like it was UP to me....my vagina became this very, very powerful force...almost too powerful to really belong to me. I birthed my baby, and it was like my vagina had become some portal to the universe...this being came OUT of me, through this place I had always had, but never had a true sense of!!

SO....I don't like to shave my lady parts now. They are sacred and I think, it's not so much a patch of hair for me now...it's more like a wizards cloak. To trim her...maybe, maybe at some point, if she gets REALLY unruly....I went a little crazy when my DD was a coupe of months old and I cut off my head hair and a lot of my vulva hair...that was no good. I felt a bit sick at it. I mean, it's like chopping off the cloak of a mighty wizard!! Imagine, a mighty, all powerful wizard...running through life all naked and scraggly looking!! No, no...I don't want to cut it again. It's long and silky and wild looking and it seems fitting....because I feel like a REAL woman now...like magic and femenine mystery...it's not mysterious if you can SEE it, you know?

As for my darling daughter....she will see my crazy body hair, like I saw my mothers. I'm not sure what she'll do. Maybe, like I did, she'll apply some effort to trying to fit the more social norm of semi-hairlessnes. But then, she'll be unlike me in many ways...raised in the woods, probably not attending public school, etc...and maybe she will never venture into that world. But I know for me, it took a realization of my true femenine self, a realization that for me, my power lies in a different place than I thought...not in my ability to maintain my physical self to an ouside stndard....but in recognizing my TRUE physical self and jus letting it be....I can SHOW her th before she is meant to see it...I can't TEACH her that, before she can know it..so, I'll support her in all phases of her femenine self....whatever that means, however it manifests....and, as in most things, hope that she can know her true self one day. I want her to be, who it is she should be....I want her to feel powerful.

I know that in a lot of ways, the power I felt in my younger days, I had to seek out power from external sources. I felt powerful, in a pair of sharp, tall high heels...strutting in my knee length pencil skirt, feeling retro and cool, with it's high waste and my buttoned up blouse. I felt powerful in my femenine self, then, when my face was glowing and looked scrubbed, with perfect makeup...sexy lips and a push up bra. My power came from those sources. Now...it's different. Now, I look at myself naked in the mirror...and I see lines like lightening, zig zagging across my belly...large, slightly flappy breasts from feeding....long wild hair falling to where I'm certain my nipples used to be....I think I'll need to grow it another few inches to get them to where they are now!! And, my crazy vagina cloak....and I'm certain, taking this all in, my raw femenine power...which now comes from deep within me, that the only reason I wear clothes, is because anyone who would lay eyes on this powerful body and vagina of mine...might faint and die, it is very overwhelming to behold!!!

~~~~~***********~~~~~~~~~~~~~~










seriously awesome... they need to add that to the vagina monologues.

I personally go in phases with shaving, but will have to let my daughter work through it herself like I do. : / there are bigger fish to fry, I think.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

AverysMomma, yours are the only epic-length posts I read. You've got some serious passion, woman!
i know, i think she is great! i always read her posts and wish we were friends.

i have been thinking about this thread for a couple of days - and as far as my dd shaving in the future - i hope that her sense of self, her sense of being a woman, her identity, and her capacity to live beyond societal expectations will NOT be defined or summed up in the act of shaving. you know? i hope that she will be so much more of a person than to have shaving be the sign or indicator of her strength, or susceptibility to succumb to traditional gender roles, etc.

if she does it, even if she does it for "lame" society driven reasons...oh well. i anticipate that she will also have a sense of individuality that is far greater than the act of shaving to be "normal"

does that make sense?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Now, my vulva...that's a different story. I was always crummy at keeping it trim...again, just REALLY don't care enoughto be anal about it...but would try and make it "cute", you know, what with being generation "shaved and designed like a porn star" and all.....I guess I felt some duty to pretend to care. But then I got pregnant with DD.

During my pregnancy...I felt my power growing. I couldn't even begin to fully understand or explain what that even MEANS....but it was like, my Vagina Awesomeness Sequence was triggered...as I counted down to the day I would finally meet my first child...somewhere inside, another kind of countdown was taking place...a countdown to the day I would realize my true power as a woman, the day my vagina would reveal to me, what it really is, show me her "stuff" so to speak. I stopped trimming at all during this time and couldn't exactly pinpoint why...it just felt incredibly disrespectful to me...she was like a beast in waiting,I felt that for privacey sake, I needed to grow a coat, not to shield her from view, so much as provide some privacey, for the "big day". I liked how long it got and though my husbands eyes grew wide at catching a glimse of her in full day light...and he would occasionally make comments...it kind of thrilled me that he was so amazed...my vagina really started to look like something else, I'll tell ya! It was almost like it began to LOOK to him, as powerful as I felt it was becoming!

Then I gave birth...and I became like some sort of sorceress! The day I birthed my baby, I realized my POWER! I came into my true, femenine magic. That day completely changed me, the way Isaw myself and my relationships with my vagina, FOREVER. My vagina just knocked my socks off! Suddenly this issue of shaving didn't even seem like it was UP to me....my vagina became this very, very powerful force...almost too powerful to really belong to me. I birthed my baby, and it was like my vagina had become some portal to the universe...this being came OUT of me, through this place I had always had, but never had a true sense of!!.


This is SO interesting to me because it most closely describes how I felt after being pregnant and experiencing the whole-ly woman-ness I have come into since birthing my daughter with no help from anyone else.
I agree with almost everything you said and would even love to have a spin-off if Avery'smomma would start it, something to chat about that change and that whole-ly woman-y experience and how it has changed how we look a our bodies.....ar eyou up for it AM?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
This is SO interesting to me because it most closely describes how I felt after being pregnant and experiencing the whole-ly woman-ness I have come into since birthing my daughter with no help from anyone else.
I agree with almost everything you said and would even love to have a spin-off if Avery'smomma would start it, something to chat about that change and that whole-ly woman-y experience and how it has changed how we look a our bodies.....ar eyou up for it AM?

Yeah definitely....I will start it up and let's see what happens.


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## Amberoxy (Dec 20, 2007)

I have to say I have found this thread to be a big self-esteem booster. Clumps are normal - who knew!?!? I thought there was something excessive about my discharges but I see now that it is normal - yay!!! It's like MDC is the big sister I never had







. Thank you all!!!

It's funny, I too am quite enamored of my vulva / vagina and I like to be able to see her instead of having her hidden behind hair. She's so pretty!


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## DianeMarie (Jul 7, 2009)

Hi everybody---I am brand new here, and I am not even a mother (although I live with my 80 year-old mother who can sometimes rival a child....), but I have been reading posts for a few months now, and I like to read and look at people's websites and blogs for recipes and gardening tips, etc. I know it sounds kind of weird, but mothers really are the best source of domestic stuff like that!! And I love looking at everybody's pictures of their families and houses and gardens, and I love it when I find some good recipes for things!!! So, thanks for that!! I'll continue to read and look at pictures and stuff....

BUT--I had to join to take part in the "shaving" discussion......because I was honestly outright LAUGHING reading some of the posts!! Too funny.....And here's my two cents (which isn't worth much).....

I started sahving when I was young, because I got my period when I was 9, I think, and of course, I started getting hair which I was VERY self-conscious about. It started with my arm pits and gradually moved down to my legs----I remember "stealing" those Flicker razors from the bathroom of my friend's mother, and we'd go in the woods in the back of her house to dry shave our legs....LMAO!!

I shave because I feel cleaner when I do. I have blonde hair, and it is very fine, so it probably wouldn't matter if I didn't---you can't really see it anyway. I just like the feel of SKIN----and when I am touched, my skin is so much more sensitive to touch without the hair there (not that anyone touches my armpits....LOL) I don't really sweat that much, but I do wear deoderant because I just have this fear that one day I will smell like a barn in the wrong environment......in the summer, I get a little "hotter" than usual, so I smell a little "gamier" than when it isn't so hot out----but then again, I do A LOT of stuff outside like gardening, cutting hedges and bushes, running, biking, boating, etc., and I do sweat while doing that. But, I never really have a "Oh God, you smell like a locker room" kind of smell. I have noticed that if I don't wear deoderant, though, I can smell a little "gamey".......and I offend myself!! But that is when I lift my arm up and sniff my own armpits---I don't think anyone would be able to smell it unless their nose was into my pit. I pluck stray eyebrow hairs, but I don't even have enough hair to justify getting them waxed.....however, I have noted 2 crazy hairs growing out of my face recently-----one out of my forehead and one out of my right cheek. Very strange. I promptly yanked those buggers out.........LOL.









As far as my "privates" go, the same holds true for there, too. I just FEEL cleaner without hair there. Plus, it doesn't stick out of the bottom of my bathing suit!!

Some people like to feel hair, some people like to feel skin. I happen to love a hairy chest, hairy legs and arms on a man---and I like goatees too!! But I like to feel a man's hair on my skin. I just prefer not to have a goatee myself!! Thank God I don't have to pull out whiskers quite yet like my mother does.........









If I had a daughter, I would leave the choice up to her. I don't think that women shaving is something that has been endorsed by men to infantalize women or make them submissive or anything---no matter whether you don't have a single hair on your person or if you are a bear, you are who you are. Men liking big boobs or small boobs happens to be a personal preference---just like some people are hippie-types, some people are metro-types, some are in-between. Doesn't make us bad, doesn't make us good. It makes us US. I honestly couldn't care less if my friends shaved or if they didn't----but, I don't think that I would tell my daughter that shaving has been "forced" upon women by men. People used to be covered with hair when they were cavemen---over time, most of the hair has fallen off, because we no longer need hair for warmth because we wear clothing. I don't see how my armpit hair or pubic hair would keep me warm in the winter months.......







:

I will have to say, though, that as far as "odors", body odor is something that my nose is extremely sensitive to, and that I find offensive. I am not saying that you have to go around smelling like a fruit salad, but a good shower with soap never hurt anybody. You don't have to powerwash or scrub yourself with a wire brush.....but get the odor-causing bacteria off your body!! That is what is causing the odor---it is bacteria from sweating and the sloughing of skin. Bacteria LOVE to live in a warm, moist environment---they thrive there. If you were just planting in the dirt, I am sure you wouldn't go prepare dinner without washing your hands first, right? Same idea as far as showering goes.

Just like our preferences, men have their preferences as well, so it is hard to go along with the "men are the cause of why women shave" theory. Some guys like short women, some like tall women. Some like blonde hair, some like red hair. Some like big boobs, some like small boobs. Some like their women "natural", some like their women "groomed". Not ALL men like the same things, and I don't feel like less of a woman or "submissive" to men because I like to look like a woman who wears makeup, who shaves and wears perfume---I feel that I am being a strong woman for wearing what I want and being who I am. Some women like to be girly-girls, some like to be sporty, some like the more natural approach. I think what we all "like" is to be happy and healthy. I do not pass judgment on anybody---the fact that we are all different makes the world a very enjoyable place to explore!! I hate to think that women are categorized by whether they shave or not, and I don't think that I have to look a certain way to be a feminist. I am a strong woman not because of my pubic hair or how I smell----I am a strong woman because I hold my head high, have an excellent education and am successful, have lots of hobbies that I enjoy, a great family---and I do think that women don't get the credit they deserve. However, it seems that once a woman has a child, their husband sees them in a new light and I think that is awesome.

And---to AverysMom---your post was the best!! However---I am pretty impressed with my vag too, and I never gave birth! A guy once told me that my "parts" were "organized", like a roast beef sandwich....LOL!! I always thought that was funny.

WOW--What a long post for the very first one...........I just wanted to participate. Thanks.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

that has got to be some kind of record for longest first post!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I like shaving. It is part of a grooming ritual that I enjoy. I also shave-ahem-different parts of my body for my husband. And he is decidely not interested in little girls.

I find these kinds of statements to do a lot of harm because pedophilia is a very real illness and relatively few people suffer from it. To suggest that men in general like women who shave because it makes us look like little girls just doesn't seem supported by basic evidence out there about pedophilia.

Most adult men and women-whether straight or gay (how many of us have seen gay people lumped in with sexual deviants?)-have within normal range sexual preferences and desire adult members. True pedophiles aren't interested in grown women-even shaved bare. To suggest otherwise is simply not true.

We can argue all day about the pervasive influence of mass media culture on body image and cleanliness. But lets stop equating shaving with deviant sexual behavior.

Um, Yeah.

Some of the attitudes in this thread make me sick. I guess my husband is a pedophile because he enjoys it when I get a brazillian









It is really hurtful, as a survivor of abuse at the hands of a pedophile, to see people be so flippant about it.

I find many of the statements in this thread to be down putting to women who DO shave or remove body hair. There seems to be an implication that women who shave are brainwashed by media and insecure with their bodies, or not as in touch with them.

If you like being hairy, great, more power to you! But I dont really think there is a right or wrong choice when it comes to body hair removal. I DO wish that there wasn't so much peer pressure to shave. I didn't really feel like I had a choice when I was in Middle School.
If I ever have a daughter I will educate her and hopefully she wont feel as pressured as I did.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

I grabbed a razor when I was about 11 or so b'c the hair on my legs would rub on the inside of my pants & bother me. No one got upset with me, but my mom did start buying more razors & began hiding hers! Thats the reason I still shave daily. Maybe I just have sensitive skin??

I'm guessing that my kids will shave when they want to, or never if they don't want to.


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## jennydecki (Jun 8, 2009)

I understand pubic waxing/shaving way more than I understand leg waxing/shaving.

18 *pages* of thread and NO ONE has gotten a pube stuck in their teeth? Really?! I'm pretty sparse so as long as I do a gentle hand-pull before "go time" everything is okay...but if I forget...my poor DH is up sputtering and picking at least a couple times and that really throws off my mojo.

I mean, there is a physical REFLEX when you get hair in your mouth. It's not a personal preference...it's hair...in the mouth...

That being said, I don't make DH shave, even though I might be thrilled if that happened because he's not going to think, "Oh hey I'm about to get some, better make sure I don't have any strays that aren't attached!" He's thinking "Oh hey I'm about to get some...(all else is lost LOL)" So sex time can occasionally be gag-reflex-of-doom time if there's a little hair that's just dying to be in my throat because it's not content to stay where it belongs.

Back to the upper hemisphere...I forget to shave my underarms until they start to itch and annoy me. Then I shave. It probably happens about once a month. My legs? You wouldn't know I haven't shaved since 6th grade - you just can't see the hair - so I feel like having an opinion is kind of like looking down from a place where you get the best of both worlds and making a judgment - kinda uncool, really.

My daughters might get my hairless legs or they might get the mane of leg hair that is DH's - either way I want them to do what they feel is best for them. Pink hair? No problem! Hairy underarms? No problem! Pube shaving? Well...I might try to convince them to dye it green instead and put a temporary tattoo of a sheep on top and then just shave a winding little road into the pubic hair for humor value...but that's just how I parent LMAO!

My poor kids aren't going to know what to do with themselves. I have this scary feeling that when they rebel they are going to wear skirt-suits and french twists and use hairspray and *shudder* wear sensible black pumps. Because that's really what it's about - the fun of rebellion and what that will look like for those of us that aren't mainstream to begin with.

Reminds me of Family Ties and the Michael P. Keaton character.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennydecki* 
Pube shaving? Well...I might try to convince them to dye it green instead and put a temporary tattoo of a sheep on top and then just shave a winding little road into the pubic hair for humor value...

Yeah...but only if you know they're doing it in the first place. My mom didn't know I shaved until ds1 came out with a public commentary on the difference between me and my sister...at a family dinner. *sigh* It's just not something I ever discussed, yk?

And, I'm totally with you on the hair in the teeth thing...just wasn't sure if mentioning it was a UAV, or not.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Um, Yeah.

Some of the attitudes in this thread make me sick. I guess my husband is a pedophile because he enjoys it when I get a brazillian









It is really hurtful, as a survivor of abuse at the hands of a pedophile, to see people be so flippant about it.

I find many of the statements in this thread to be down putting to women who DO shave or remove body hair. There seems to be an implication that women who shave are brainwashed by media and insecure with their bodies, or not as in touch with them.

If you like being hairy, great, more power to you! But I dont really think there is a right or wrong choice when it comes to body hair removal. I DO wish that there wasn't so much peer pressure to shave. I didn't really feel like I had a choice when I was in Middle School.
If I ever have a daughter I will educate her and hopefully she wont feel as pressured as I did.









I understand what you mean, about flippant attitudes. It hurts me too, sometimes...but I try to remember that we're all on different paths, with different experiences and that people just don't know.

I think that a womans relationship with her vagina and vulva are to be her own....however you wear her, so long as you wear her with pride....you've got my vote for "rockin' vagina"...and even if sometimes a lady can't be so proud...I still love her and her vagina.

Our journeys are all so different....we all experience something different in the shift from maiden, to mother....some of us have many children and NEVER have a baby come out of our vaginas...some of us, never have any children of our own...but help other women have babies all our lives. No matter what your story....you in relation to the physical manifestation of what makes you female...will shift throghout your life. So....I remember hairlesness...I was cool with it....then, I shifted big time...and I love and am filled with a mix of awe, pride and almost, fear....a certain apprehension...at the awesome power of this magnificent, beastly, hairy and wild part of me, the place my child comes from...the place of solace for my one true love...my awesome vagina.

So....however you rock it man, however you rock it, it's okay, nobody means any harm...it's just, we all love our vaginas so much, that it's hard not to think our way is the best way!!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennydecki* 
I understand pubic waxing/shaving way more than I understand leg waxing/shaving.

18 *pages* of thread and NO ONE has gotten a pube stuck in their teeth? Really?! I'm pretty sparse so as long as I do a gentle hand-pull before "go time" everything is okay...but if I forget...my poor DH is up sputtering and picking at least a couple times and that really throws off my mojo.

I mean, there is a physical REFLEX when you get hair in your mouth. It's not a personal preference...it's hair...in the mouth...

That being said, I don't make DH shave, even though I might be thrilled if that happened because he's not going to think, "Oh hey I'm about to get some, better make sure I don't have any strays that aren't attached!" He's thinking "Oh hey I'm about to get some...(all else is lost LOL)" So sex time can occasionally be gag-reflex-of-doom time if there's a little hair that's just dying to be in my throat because it's not content to stay where it belongs.

Back to the upper hemisphere...I forget to shave my underarms until they start to itch and annoy me. Then I shave. It probably happens about once a month. My legs? You wouldn't know I haven't shaved since 6th grade - you just can't see the hair - so I feel like having an opinion is kind of like looking down from a place where you get the best of both worlds and making a judgment - kinda uncool, really.

My daughters might get my hairless legs or they might get the mane of leg hair that is DH's - either way I want them to do what they feel is best for them. Pink hair? No problem! Hairy underarms? No problem! Pube shaving? Well...I might try to convince them to dye it green instead and put a temporary tattoo of a sheep on top and then just shave a winding little road into the pubic hair for humor value...but that's just how I parent LMAO!

My poor kids aren't going to know what to do with themselves. I have this scary feeling that when they rebel they are going to wear skirt-suits and french twists and use hairspray and *shudder* wear sensible black pumps. Because that's really what it's about - the fun of rebellion and what that will look like for those of us that aren't mainstream to begin with.

Reminds me of Family Ties and the Michael P. Keaton character.

I think I love you. GREAT post!!


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
I do understand the conflict you are pointing out b/w the idea that men want us to look like little girls and the fact that so many men like huge boobs. I think the thing is that they DON'T want us to appear as children, they want us to appear as young _teenagers_; young and naive and virginal but with perky breasts, rounds bottoms and not much by way of pubic hair. The ones who want really big boobs are not the majority they are fetishist, and honestly I think it stems from this country's lack of breastfeeding. They seem to need breasts that appear to be engorged with milk







I think men in america are, for the most part, afraid of real women and that's why they find this teenager idea so attractive. A real woman who is confident in herself presents a great challenge to a man's power. I think a woman can have just as much power while waxing her entire body and getting breast implants and hair extensions, BUT the fact is that most women in america feel trapped by these ideals and that they have no choice but to try to measure up to them whether they enjoy these practices or not.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
continuing with the TMI theme...big time TMI btw

um yeah i am with mags on the clump thing. i have the same problem. i have a friend with almost now pubic hair... i wish i were that lucky. i have a lot ... as in per square inch and surface area covered. it sort of goes down onto my inner thighs (hence the bathing suit problem) and right up to my c section scar and way far back over my ermm yeah ok wow awkward. and um its not just on the outside... o god i can't believe i am typing this. i always wondered if i am the only one who has pubic hair on the underside of my labia not just the outside.









you are not alone.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I read pages 1 and 2, and then realized this thread was WAY too long for me to read the whole thing tonight, so I skipped to page 19 to see what all was happening here, and I see this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennydecki* 

18 *pages* of thread and NO ONE has gotten a pube stuck in their teeth? Really?! I'm pretty sparse so as long as I do a gentle hand-pull before "go time" everything is okay...but if I forget...my poor DH is up sputtering and picking at least a couple times and that really throws off my mojo.

I mean, there is a physical REFLEX when you get hair in your mouth. It's not a personal preference...it's hair...in the mouth...










: Oh my GOSH! Thank you, I am glad this thread wasn't all fighting and judgments and that someone brought some great humor (and a DARN good point!) into the discussion!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

ok on the stuck in teeth subject--- one time i was talking to my best friends boyfriend online. we were going through some stuff and weren't as close at the time.. and he is telling me about their freaking sex life.. and i am thinking that it was weird to hear all this from someone else... blah blah blah.. and then he tells me two things i never wanted to know (well ok i did but i wanted to hear them from her.. and 4 yrs later these are still two of out favorite high school sex stories







) so ubbber TMI TMI TMI TMI

ok i warned you, so i am talking to him online and he tells me that was *AHEM* performing oral (am i allowed to say that?) and then they went down to dinner with his family. while they were eating dinner he pulled a pube out of his mouth.









and this one is even more personal.. he said was doing the same thing as above.. and when he looked up his mouth was erm.. bright red.

yes this kid told me this online.. knowing me and her were going through stuff.. and it turns out i wasn't the only one he told. how ridiculous is thaT?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

ok I skipped pages 2-11 . . . .so forgive me if this has been mentioned. to be honest mt mom did not talk to me about shaving. my friends at school did. and I did not talk to my dd about shaving until after her friends did. Sometimes I shave and sometimes I don't. My dd is the same way. we both have our individual reasons for shaving or not shaving on any given day. I am glad she feels free to do whatever pleases *her*. My point though is that we are not our childrens only influence. and you will likely not be able to stop her from being who she wants to be. influence her maybe but for whatever reasons shaving my legs was the one thing my mom was not going to be able to stop me from doing totally (I have always been a lazy shaver though







) she didn't want me shaving but wanted me to do oit safely so got me my own razor. cause in the end what could she do?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

and for what it is worth I am like a sasquatch . . . . My pubes get tangely, actually i am not sure where pubes end and body hair begins, my eyebrows get into my eyes, and I have weird belly hair. My man friend, we have not been intimate so am not sure what is beneath the pants but his nipple hair is braidable, his eyebrow (no s . . . not plaural, its one big eyebrow) is bushy and he could give himself pit dreadlocks. he probably shaves more than most women







ironically he cannot grow a decent beard to save his life....we have discussed our preferences for this sort of thing . . . .I said "I don't like flossin' with it but I don't want it baby smooth either." so there you have it.


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## gagin37 (May 25, 2008)

19 pages was a bit much for me to read through, so I will just say that I do not shave, and if I ever have a daughter, I will explain to her why I don't shave, but ultimately the decision is up to her. This is the attitude my mom had, and I think it worked pretty well. I shaved when I was in middle school, and there was a lot of peer pressure. I stopped in HS and haven't since. My two sisters both shave. My mom buys them razors and shaving cream without making them feel bad about their decision, even though she doesn't agree with it.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

I shave and epilate nearly everything. I believe it is a purely personal choice for everyone, and I don't see much difference between me shaving my pits, and men shaving their faces (or not, or partially). I don't think I will say much about it to my kids other than to answer questions they might have and stress that it's their choice and no one should try to shame them for it.

I was totally natural body-hair-wise until age 19 or so (I rejected the whole idea because I rejected most Western 'beauty standards' at the time), but once I started shaving one place, it led to another, and I far prefer it this way for a variety of reasons already discussed in the thread. I know lots of people that don't shave much or anything and hair doesn't bother me, although I prefer not having an excess of hair in a sexual partner (my BF keeps his facial hair short for me).

I've heard the shaving/pedophilia meme in every discussion about altering pubic hair I've ever heard or read. It sickens me a bit that that is where people's minds go. I have fully adult labia, as well as stubble most days of the month. No one could confuse my vulva with a child's! I have also heard people accuse those who are intimate with women who are skinny, have small breasts, or 'look young' (I happen to be all of these as well, but hello! I am a *consensual adult* who enjoys sex and also, all kinds of people think I look sexy, there is nothing wrong with them either) of pedophilia or latent homosexuality. Please. It's nonsense, and offensive to survivors of childhood sexual abuse (and to gay people).


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhubarbarin* 
I've heard the shaving/pedophilia meme in every discussion about altering pubic hair I've ever heard or read. It sickens me a bit that that is where people's minds go. I have fully adult labia, as well as stubble most days of the month. No one could confuse my vulva with a child's! I have also heard people accuse those who are intimate with women who are skinny, have small breasts, or 'look young' (I happen to be all of these as well, but hello! I am a *consensual adult* who enjoys sex and also, all kinds of people think I look sexy, there is nothing wrong with them either) of pedophilia or latent homosexuality. Please. It's nonsense, and offensive to survivors of childhood sexual abuse (and to gay people).

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying '_pedophilia_' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

My mom didn't start shaving until she went back to work when I was 9 or 10 years old. I never had a "shaving talk," I just remember wanting to shave in Jr. High once all of the other girls started doing it. My mom gave me a nifty electric razor (never showed me how to use a blade lol) and I would sometimes use that Nair stuff. I was never crazy about shaving and was always at awe of women who didn't.

When I met my partner in college, I was excited by the fact that his sister and none of her friends shaved at all. He could care less about hair status. I have since stopped shaving my pits (I do keep them trimmed, as well as my "mini-bush" as it's been called







) I still shave most of my legs (knees down) because I actually prefer the smoothness. I have become much more comfortable with myself and my semi-hairiness over the last few years.

If I ever have a daughter, I will approach shaving as a non-nonchalant issue. If she wants to shave, fine. If not, awesome. I think that because my mom didn't make a big deal over it it eventually became a non-issue for me. I just want my children to be themselves and be comfortable with who that person is.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Again, I don't think anyone here is saying '_pedophilia_' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?

Evolutionary scientists believe the attraction is based more on fertility then a woman's ability to assert herself. Younger woman tend to be more fertile then older women.

I'm inclined more to this way of thinking, but that is based on the younger women I know who are all very sure of themselves and very able express their opinions to men of all ages.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Again, I don't think anyone here is saying '_pedophilia_' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?

I didn't realize that one could use a woman's "concern with the smoothness of her armpits" as a measure of her age, experience, or ability to form opinions.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Again, I don't think anyone here is saying '_pedophilia_' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?

I just don't see what it has to do with shaving. If a man isn't attracted to body hair (or hairless vaginas), he will move on. If a women isn't attracted to hairy (or not so hairy) man, she will move on.

I just think a lot of this argument really is offensive to most men. Most men - and women - want a partner they find interesting, intelligent, fun and well, a partner. Though the media might have us believe it, I just don't think the majority of men are these shallow, porn-obsessed beings who judge all women by unforgiving physical or age-related standards. I think the vast majority of men are kind, personable, unique individuals who are generally realistic about bodies. I think, like most women, they're just looking for an interesting person whom they're attracted to.

Different people are attracted to different things. While some men may prefer younger, less experienced and less opinionated women, I think there are just as many who wouldn't - DH as one of them. I dated quite a bit and I can honestly say I only met ONE man who was concerned with shaving -- and he was a full-body shaver himself. Every other guy was just interested in being close and intimate with my realistic, sometimes-hairy, opinionated self.

Also, there are plenty of women (and men) who prefer older, more experienced men (or women) as partners, for a plethora of reasons.

Biologically speaking, men are attracted to signs of fertility, which are more prominent in younger women. In the same token, females of most species are attracted to males with, or with access to, resources -- which older, more established men usually have to a greater degree. To a degree, a man's preference for younger mates may be a natural inclination, as a woman's inclination for socializing with older men.

I really don't think shaving has much to do with it in the big picture.


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## Sorin (Nov 7, 2005)

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, and I'm not reading all 19 pages of this monster thread, but the removal of body hair is cross-cultural and has been going on for ages. I know from my Indian friends that culturally-speaking, Indian women (I don't know about the men) strongly advocate getting rid of body hair, and this goes beyond the threading of the eyebrows! One of my friends said that she does not dare go visit relatives in India without getting rid of her forearm hair. And her grandmother has waged such a war on her body hair throughout her life that it no longer grows anymore!

To go even further back, there is ancient Egyptian artwork that depicts men and women removing their hair. I even saw one once of a man getting his pubes shaved at a "barber shop." The ancient Egyptians were somewhat obsessed with hygiene, and removing their body hair was part of their cleansing ritual.

So I say all this to say (and I don't mean any offense), that I think some people may be overthinking this a bit. Humans have been removing their hair for centuries, so be hairy or shave, it is totally a personal preference. But those of us who do shave are not tools of modern American patriarchy. There is nothing particularly modern, American, or patriarchal about hair removal.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Evolutionary scientists believe the attraction is based more on fertility then a woman's ability to assert herself. Younger woman tend to be more fertile then older women.

I'm inclined more to this way of thinking, but that is based on the younger women I know who are all very sure of themselves and very able express their opinions to men of all ages.

Well yes it is the stereotyping of the young again and again. Yes children are more swayed by suggestion but young adults? Young women? I think that within itself is ageist and sexist (to both men and women- women=lemmings and men=predators and pedophiles). No they may not have as much experience but they also may have more. It really does depend.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I didn't realize that one could use a woman's "concern with the smoothness of her armpits" as a measure of her age, experience, or ability to form opinions.

Nor did I.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seaheroine* 
I just don't see what it has to do with shaving. If a man isn't attracted to body hair (or hairless vaginas), he will move on. If a women isn't attracted to hairy (or not so hairy) man, she will move on.

I just think a lot of this argument really is offensive to most men. Most men - and women - want a partner they find interesting, intelligent, fun and well, a partner. Though the media might have us believe it, I just don't think the majority of men are these shallow, porn-obsessed beings who judge all women by unforgiving physical or age-related standards. I think the vast majority of men are kind, personable, unique individuals who are generally realistic about bodies. I think, like most women, they're just looking for an interesting person whom they're attracted to.

Different people are attracted to different things. While some men may prefer younger, less experienced and less opinionated women, I think there are just as many who wouldn't - DH as one of them. I dated quite a bit and I can honestly say I only met ONE man who was concerned with shaving -- and he was a full-body shaver himself. Every other guy was just interested in being close and intimate with my realistic, sometimes-hairy, opinionated self.

Also, there are plenty of women (and men) who prefer older, more experienced men (or women) as partners, for a plethora of reasons.

Biologically speaking, men are attracted to signs of fertility, which are more prominent in younger women. In the same token, females of most species are attracted to males with, or with access to, resources -- which older, more established men usually have to a greater degree. To a degree, a man's preference for younger mates may be a natural inclination, as a woman's inclination for socializing with older men.

I really don't think shaving has much to do with it in the big picture.









: to the above

And when we talk about biologically speaking men preferring the more fertile and the more fertile being younger we aren't talking prepubescent which is what hairless means in the physical word we are talking younger _women_ not female _children_.

As for not meaning pedophilia by suggesting men like a hairless woman to make her appear younger- hairless= prepubescent. We aren't just talking older teens and 20 somethings (read: young adults) we are talking children. That would indicate pedophilia.

Soren~ we have discussed this a bit in the thread and I think it's a valid point. We just can't blame it al on modern society and the brainless women within it.









ETA- again I don't like the more hair=more grown up thing either. As I have said some men and women just aren't hairy.


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## Four&Me (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
man1 - jane this is john, john this is jane
jane- hi, nice to meet you
john - do you shave your pubic hair?
Jane - yes
John- nice to meet you too. would you like to see my a$$hole membership card?

lol!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
Hair removal isn't only shaving, either. I know a lot of people go all







: over the notion of waxing or such, but methods of pulling hairs out en mass have long been popular too.

yes i was wondering why no one has mentioned this??
anyhow
my histroy is as follows for those interested,







i shaved my legs in the 6th grade and have a huge scar to remind me.
i have dark corse hair on legs, toes, arms, knuckles, face. when i developed facial hair in 7th grade i shaved that until a few years ago. then i went around with a 'stach and stopped shaving my legs, underarms ect. i went on to cut my hair on my head that was waist length until eventually i shaved it. not bald but with a head shaver on the lowest setting. and yes i did get looks sometimes but sometimes not. and most of the time i didnt pay attention. depends on what crowd was around. ive had people come up and smell my pits (that they smelled from a distance) and say it was yummy. lol. my smell depends on what i eat. sometimes i forget to wear deodorant and the kind i use is tom's apricot and doesnt have the staying power. so sometimes i smell bad! so now i do shave my underarms when i go out if i can remember. i dont shave my legs, face, pubic region anymore. I WAX!!!!







whenever i shave it gets stubbly in about 6 hours anyways so whats the point.?
and i would like to know if anyone with prominent facial hair doesnt get that waxed, bleached, tweezed, naired. or whatever. i would definitely give respect to those more then the non shavers who are have "light fine hair"









waxing is expensive so i am saving up to get it ALL lazered off. i am a bit of a packrat so letting go is hard but im giving it up.









and for the more tmi department, it is appreciated when partners are trimmed.

my children are asking me why i am laughing. that is not a conversation i am going to have at this point. lol!! but to each his own. everyone feeling good about themselves is promoted at this house.

i went out this weekend in a skirt, tshirt, 4 1/2 inch heels and long hair on my legs. (in between waxing hair has to growout..) anyways i was very fashionable. i did shave my underarms but forgot the deodorant. lol.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Well yes it is the stereotyping of the young again and again. Yes children are more swayed by suggestion but young adults? Young women? I think that within itself is ageist and sexist (to both men and women- women=lemmings and men=predators and pedophiles). No they may not have as much experience but they also may have more. It really does depend.


Except that evolutionary scientists work under the idea that humans are animals. Age is just one thing that express fertility to potential mates and good mates aren't just sought by men.

There are things that tend to reappear regularly in the definition of an attractive man. All of which have their own link to why he is a good man to have children with.

That doesn't mean that every man is looking for the same thing or every woman is looking for the same thing.

Also it is a medical fact that a womans most fertile years are late teens.


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## barefootmama0709 (Jun 25, 2009)

I shave all of my body hair except my arms. I cannot stand to have ANY leg, armpit or pubic hair. Nobody told me this was necessary-my mom didn't shave, and I didn't do it as a result of peer pressure. I just don't like having body hair. I actually dated someone in HS who said he wished I wouldn't shave my legs but I couldn't not do it-it bugged me too much. However, I do have OCD and I think that this is one of my obsessions.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Except that evolutionary scientists work under the idea that humans are animals. Age is just one thing that express fertility to potential mates and good mates aren't just sought by men.

There are things that tend to reappear regularly in the definition of an attractive man. All of which have their own link to why he is a good man to have children with.

That doesn't mean that every man is looking for the same thing or every woman is looking for the same thing.

Also it is a medical fact that a womans most fertile years are late teens.

Yes I wasn't challenging you I was referring to the post you quoted.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seaheroine* 
(or hairless vaginas)

I know there are varying degrees of pubic hair, but I never have heard of any woman having a hairy vagina. Sorry, I couldn't let that one slide.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Yes I wasn't challenging you I was referring to the post you quoted.

Ok.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I know there are varying degrees of pubic hair, but I never have heard of anyone woman having a hairy vagina. Sorry, I couldn't let that one slide.

This is a big peeve for me. Look socially we call it the vagina. It is what it is. People refer to that area in general as their vagina and we all know it. Really, it's not a huge deal. It in no way affects us as people or women. So yeah she said vagina when she should have used the more technical term. So what. We all knew what she meant.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
This is a big peeve for me. Look socially we call it the vagina. It is what it is. People refer to that area in general as their vagina and we all know it. Really, it's not a huge deal. It in no way affects us as people or women. So yeah she said vagina when she should have used the more technical term. So what. We all knew what she meant.

I thought she meant a hairy vagina in an attempt to make hairiness sound even worse.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying 'pedophilia' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?
i don't believe this is about any specific man - i believe this is about societal expectations. i don't think it is about individuals preferences. i think it is along the same lines (but not exactly the same) as there being SO MUCH pressure for women to be "skinny" to be beautiful. it's what is expected, and i think that shaving is one aspect of how the "ideal" woman is supposed to look. that certainly does not mean that women lack the capacity to buck societal norms and do whatever is right for them - but it does mean that there is alot of pressure around these things - and if getting rid of excess weight was as easy as shaving off excess hair - how many free thinking, independent women would do that? many many. not the best comparison - but thats one part of my feelings around this.

also, a pp mentioned having quite alot of facial hair - i have known one woman who left hers with no lightening, shaving, or getting rid of whatsoever. and i have seen others like her, in passing.

and i thought purity lake was just trying to be funny...a hairy vagina? thats funny!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Again, I don't think anyone here is saying '_pedophilia_' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?

I'm sure there are men like that, but I've never seen any evidence that shaving or not shaving has much to do with their preferences.

I will say that dh met me when I was in my early 30s, coming off a disastrous first marriage, already a mother, and had racked up two miscarriages. I had far more sexual experience than he did (he's 7 years younger than me), and he knew it. I also weighed about 200 pounds. None of those things were a turn-off in any way...in fact, my life experience, if anything, made me more attractive to him. (I've come across that before. My life has been a bit...weird, in some ways, and a lot of guys seem to like that.) To the extent that my pubic shaving was a psychological plus, it was largely because it made me seem more worldly, not because it made me seem younger.

And, as other posters have said, I have a lot of trouble with any sentence that seems to equate being older and/or more experienced with the amount of hair on one's armpits. Oh - and I'm definitely opinionated. It's never been a handicap in my love life...not even a little bit.


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## SashaBreeze (Apr 18, 2009)

OK I will confess, I only read the first page and this one. Apparently it turned into some sort of debate???









As to the original question:

I don't shave, except very rarely. I must say that each and every time I shave it is due to societal pressures. Like for the family bbq that I wanted to wear a tank top to. I just did not have the energy to deal with people over it that day so out came the razor. We always have razors around because dh shaves. Some times I am up for the inevitable debate, sometimes not.









That being said my 12yod has went into puberty early. She has thick black hair like her mommy on top of super pale skin. The only conversations we have really had about it is she asked about shaving because her cousin was. I told her that some women do and some dont. That if you look at the world as a whole that most women dont. I didnt really get into the trying to look like a little girl thing because I just didnt feel it necessary at her age. She asked if there was any reason to shave and I told her no, just to fit in... this really turned her off to it.









That was two years ago. Now puberty has massively kicked in and I have had to eat my words a little. M has a body odor problem. I have no problem with natural odors. But.... M I will be honest can smell like a dead skunk! Burn your eyeballs kind of stink. I explained to her that it probably has most to do with the hormones of puberty and should mellow out as she gets older but in the mean time we have discovered that if she keeps her armpits shaved it goes a long way into cutting back the stink. So maybe you will have to play it by ear like we did?

As far as the history behind the shaving I would wait until the teen years for that info and introduce it as a "Did you know the reason X was started was..." And then it can be a give and take conversation. kwim?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Except that evolutionary scientists work under the idea that humans are animals. Age is just one thing that express fertility to potential mates and good mates aren't just sought by men.

There are things that tend to reappear regularly in the definition of an attractive man. All of which have their own link to why he is a good man to have children with.

That doesn't mean that every man is looking for the same thing or every woman is looking for the same thing.

Also it is a medical fact that a womans most fertile years are late teens.

But all of this confuses me from my experience of pretty much most guys I have known *NOT* wanting to get any girls pregnant...._at all_...why would they want a fertile girl then? Is it subconscious? FWIW I'm seriously asking~ no sarcasm here.
I can understand the argument as it is applied to the female side as many more girls/women I have known have wanted kids.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiesk* 
i don't believe this is about any specific man - i believe this is about societal expectations. i don't think it is about individuals preferences. i think it is along the same lines (but not exactly the same) as there being SO MUCH pressure for women to be "skinny" to be beautiful. it's what is expected, and i think that shaving is one aspect of how the "ideal" woman is supposed to look. that certainly does not mean that women lack the capacity to buck societal norms and do whatever is right for them - but it does mean that there is alot of pressure around these things - and if getting rid of excess weight was as easy as shaving off excess hair - how many free thinking, independent women would do that? many many. not the best comparison - but thats one part of my feelings around this.

also, a pp mentioned having quite alot of facial hair - i have known one woman who left hers with no lightening, shaving, or getting rid of whatsoever. and i have seen others like her, in passing.

and i thought purity lake was just trying to be funny...a hairy vagina? thats funny!!

I do know it to be true about many males that I have known.

About the facial hair on women who have left it unbleached/shaved/waxed~ I have known two women who left it, one had a *full* goatee and it was oddly striking on her, it added a pleasing androgeny(sp?).


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SashaBreeze* 
OK I will confess, I only read the first page and this one. Apparently it turned into some sort of debate???









As to the original question:

I don't shave, except very rarely. I must say that each and every time I shave it is due to societal pressures. Like for the family bbq that I wanted to wear a tank top to. I just did not have the energy to deal with people over it that day so out came the razor. We always have razors around because dh shaves. Some times I am up for the inevitable debate, sometimes not.









That being said my 12yod has went into puberty early. She has thick black hair like her mommy on top of super pale skin. The only conversations we have really had about it is she asked about shaving because her cousin was. I told her that some women do and some dont. That if you look at the world as a whole that most women dont. I didnt really get into the trying to look like a little girl thing because I just didnt feel it necessary at her age. She asked if there was any reason to shave and I told her no, just to fit in... this really turned her off to it.









That was two years ago. Now puberty has massively kicked in and I have had to eat my words a little. M has a body odor problem. I have no problem with natural odors. But.... M I will be honest can smell like a dead skunk! Burn your eyeballs kind of stink. I explained to her that it probably has most to do with the hormones of puberty and should mellow out as she gets older but in the mean time we have discovered that if she keeps her armpits shaved it goes a long way into cutting back the stink. So maybe you will have to play it by ear like we did?

As far as the history behind the shaving I would wait until the teen years for that info and introduce it as a "Did you know the reason X was started was..." And then it can be a give and take conversation. kwim?

This is cool to read about, giving me one glimpse into the possible future and some insight as to how I can handle it. I would agree that if there was some issue that shaving could resolve then it would be a good option. SO I will







that point, too. See, it can be good for a thread to go on and on, people can learn things.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I thought she meant a hairy vagina in an attempt to make hairiness sound even worse.

I suppose it was

Quote:

Sorry, I couldn't let that one slide.
that made me get all peevy. There are just often posts reprimanding those who use 'vagina' as all encompassing of the female genitalia and it's just old. I apologize for the confusion and the outburst.

Carry on. Hormonal pregnant woman subdued.









Hey what a cool new smilie!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
But all of this confuses me from my experience of pretty much most guys I have known *NOT* wanting to get any girls pregnant...._at all_...why would they want a fertile girl then? Is it subconscious? FWIW I'm seriously asking~ no sarcasm here.
I can understand the argument as it is applied to the female side as many more girls/women I have known have wanted kids.

Yes, it's subconcous. They are looking for a mate, mate means sex, sex means baby so logically the most sexually attractive woman is the one who seems most suited for completing the sequence of events.

Unlike most other animals we have enough of a freewill to decide if we want to reproduce and consider the implications of reproducing. That doesn't eliminate the baser urges, it just allows us to utilize the natural and not so natural methods of preventing pregnancy.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

This theory you are espousing has been widely critiqued.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
But all of this confuses me from my experience of pretty much most guys I have known *NOT* wanting to get any girls pregnant...._at all_...why would they want a fertile girl then? Is it subconscious?


I think it's completely subconscious and instinctive.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This theory you are espousing has been widely critiqued.

And what theories haven't?


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Yes, it's subconcous. They are looking for a mate, mate means sex, sex means baby so logically the most sexually attractive woman is the one who seems most suited for completing the sequence of events.

Unlike most other animals we have enough of a freewill to decide if we want to reproduce and consider the implications of reproducing. That doesn't eliminate the baser urges, it just allows us to utilize the natural and not so natural methods of preventing pregnancy.

Well, I appreciate your response, but I don't think I buy into this theory. (but I would need to probably read more about it to really decide.)


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This theory you are espousing has been widely critiqued.

We would never learn anything if theories weren't critiqued. And critiqued just means it was looked at and examined by others in the field, it speaks nothing of the accuracy of the theory.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
So yeah she said vagina when she should have used the more technical term. So what. We all knew what she meant.

Pretty much, my bad. We don't get worked up about nomenclature around here and those threads aren't my favorite, either.

I wasn't trying to make hairiness sound worse...it is what it is.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Yes, it's subconcous. They are looking for a mate, mate means sex, sex means baby so logically the most sexually attractive woman is the one who seems most suited for completing the sequence of events.

Unlike most other animals we have enough of a freewill to decide if we want to reproduce and consider the implications of reproducing. That doesn't eliminate the baser urges, it just allows us to utilize the natural and not so natural methods of preventing pregnancy.









:

It's pretty well accepted that many parts of human attractiveness are related to fertility cues. It's subconcious and innate, like mating compatibility of all species. It isn't really about actually finishing the process -- the production of children is regulated in a social context.

Different developmental psychology/anthropological studies have shown there to be many factors deemed attractive - indicative of good health/genetic fitness - cross-culturally and globally, such as facial symmetry, hip-to-waist ratio, facial bone structure, etc.

Body scent is also believed to play a role in immunological compatibility; one well-known test invited women to sniff the used t-shirts of men and rate them in order of attractiveness. The test found that women rated the immunologically dissimilar men the most attractive.

The argument being that two very different immune systems will give offspring a "hybrid vigor" so to speak, encouraging a healthy child.

You can also delve much further into human reproductive strategies, concealed ovulation, males and resources, the motivations of parental investment, etc. Obviously, human relationships have a strong social context and cultural variation which can also affect, override or otherwise alter our behavior. The root argument for many behaviors, though, is biological if you believe humans to be of the animal kingdom.

There are consistencies in attractiveness across cultures, though, and they are argued to be instinctual to our species. Shaving, obviously, is a cultural practice albeit an ancient one. But Mags is right -- attentiveness to grooming/hygiene, etc - if shaving falls under that category for you - is not exclusive to humans and is a behavior we share with other species.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
We would never learn anything if theories were critiqued. And critiqued just means it was looked at and examined by others in the field, it speaks nothing of the accuracy of the theory.

Assuming you mean "_weren't_ critiqued" I agree.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Hairy legs makes me uncomfortable, they are so itchy to the point of hurting, so yeah, I shave my legs etc because otherwise, I am just way too uncomfortable.

As for DDs, their body, their choice.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

I have only read to page 10 and then I skipped here, so I apologize if I am off track of the current conversation. I shave my armpits, pluck my brows, and wax my arms, full brazilian, and my legs. I am basically hairless from the neck down. I'm blonde so it is not an appearence thing, just comfort. This is MY personal choice because it makes me feek more comfortable and cleaner. DH actually wants to see me with a little hair, but as was mentioned earlier, the thought of AF sticking to hair makes me shudder







: I've done this for 15 years because it feels more comfortable to me. I could care less what other women do.

I think that saying women who remove hair from their bodies are subconsiously oppressed is silly. It makes me think of people who say I am oppressed as a homemaker. I have a Masters degree, I just choose to stay home. I don't have to shave/pluck/wax but I choose to. Isn't that the beauty of the women's rights movement? To be free to make choices?

My DD can do what she wishes with her own body. I will support her in what makes her happy.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:

Isn't that the beauty of the women's rights movement? To be free to make choices?
Sure as long as you are making the choices "they" deem acceptable.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Sure as long as you are making the choices "they" deem acceptable.









Don't even get me started on how cheated I feel by the "femenist" movement....







:


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Don't even get me started on how cheated I feel by the "femenist" movement....







:

We should start a tribe!









Of course the movement was needed and I wouldn't go back and stop it but wow in some parts it seems to have taken on this whole other meaning


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:

I think that saying women who remove hair from their bodies are subconsiously oppressed is silly.
but is anyone saying that? i'm certainly not.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiesk* 
but is anyone saying that? i'm certainly not.

Earlier in the thread some things were said along these lines like women who shave don't do it for themselves, etc.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Earlier in the thread some things were said along these lines like women who shave don't do it for themselves, etc.

this is something i thought of earlier in the thread but couldn't find the right words for. i don't think it is fair to say that women aren't doing it for themselves. even if a woman shaves because she believes that is what other people find attractive, if she wears make up to look more like angelina jolie, and if she wears 4 in heels and mini skirts on her barely above underweight body b/c she thinks that it is attractive b/c that is what the media portrays technically she is still doing all of it for herself. maybe i don't think these things are necessarily true or important but so what? if they are important to her then she is doing it for herself.

some women don't believe SAHMs really choose to do that... and that it is left over oppression or something that is driving that desire... well then they can choose not to SAHM and i say good for them... they can think what they want but that doesn't make it true for me. some women believe that women who WOHM only do it because they feel like they have to or a whole host of other really offensive reasons... but i am 100% certain that there are women who WOHM because they enjoy it and it works for them...people can insist that she doesn't like it until the cows come home but it doesn't actually change anything. there are tons of reasons why people choose to do things and when it comes down to it we make choices based on what is important to us. so in the end what we do is for ourselves.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

Quote:

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying 'pedophilia' what we are saying is that there are men, and maybe a large percentage, who would ultimately prefer a younger, less experienced, less opinionated girl over an older, more experienced woman who isn't concerned with the smoothness of her armpits. Do you really not believe there are men out there like that?
So you think body hair=physical age, emotional maturity and outspokenness. And body hair removal=youth, less life experience and compliance? This seems a bit silly to me and it's certainly not true personally. I was completely hairy until 19 and have chosen to remove more of my hair as I aged.

I happen, through little effort of my own, to comply fairly well with current American beauty standards (young, look even younger, white, blonde, blue-eyed, cute face, thin body, long head hair, no body hair). I am also a radical feminist who has plenty of life experience and strong opinions and am not concerned with maintaining my armpits, or anything else, for the benefit of the male gaze. These things are not mutually exclusive.

When someone says shaving makes a woman 'look like a little girl' and that it's somehow inappropriate or creepy that men would like their partners shaved because it makes them 'look like a little girl', they are indeed referencing pedophilia since only actual children before puberty, not teens who are children under the law, have no body hair. I had just as much body hair at 15 as I do now, at 25. An older woman is only slightly more likely to be unshaven, due to changing social norms. Emotional maturity (which plenty of people older in age are lacking in) has absolutely nothing to do with body hair removal.

As far as men, of course the majority desire younger and conventionally attractive women. This is so and has ever been so (and younger, conventionally attractive men catch my own eye the most as well). But I don't give a crap what 'the average American male' wants/demands in his sexual or romantic partners, and I don't think he's pertinent to this discussion. My body hair has nothing to do with anyone else! It's mine, to do what I please with.

Quote:

but is anyone saying that? i'm certainly not.
Well, the OP started off with

Quote:

I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls.
and I didn't read the whole thread.


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## Erin082 (Jan 25, 2009)

I do shave, but I totally agree with you about the pressure for grown woman to look like children . . . my stepdaughter (14) was complaining the other day about her new curves and calling herself "fat". Shelamented that when she was twelve she weighed 100 lbs, and is now approaching 120. the kid is a total knockout btw, not an ounce of loose flesh on her . . . her dad chimed in that she should watch her weight. I was outraged, horrified and very very sad. I explained to her that as women mature they get curves, that she needed the "fat" , that it was natures intention that women have them . . . I am nursing so I used that as one example of "why". Then I turned on her father . . . LOL. I asked him how he would feel if he were expected to look the same way NOW as he did before puberty. How silly would that be? And also very damaging . . . but I digress. As for the shaving, I did it without permission at 11 . . . dsd did it also without permission, at - YIKES- 9!!! Unless your daughter is completely sheltered from the mainstream world, I imagine that chances are she will want to try shaving at some point. Just as I can't force my dsd to embrace her womanly beauty, only encourage it and "try" to set a good example, I suspect that is all that can be done on the issue of shaving also . . . Good Luck


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Agatha_Ann* 
I have only read to page 10 and then I skipped here, so I apologize if I am off track of the current conversation. I shave my armpits, pluck my brows, and wax my arms, full brazilian, and my legs. I am basically hairless from the neck down. I'm blonde so it is not an appearence thing, just comfort. This is MY personal choice because it makes me feek more comfortable and cleaner. DH actually wants to see me with a little hair, but as was mentioned earlier, the thought of AF sticking to hair makes me shudder







: I've done this for 15 years because it feels more comfortable to me. I could care less what other women do.

I think that saying women who remove hair from their bodies are subconsiously oppressed is silly. It makes me think of people who say I am oppressed as a homemaker. I have a Masters degree, I just choose to stay home. I don't have to shave/pluck/wax but I choose to. Isn't that the beauty of the women's rights movement? To be free to make choices?

My DD can do what she wishes with her own body. I will support her in what makes her happy.









Quoting myself....









I forgot one of my other reasons for having no hair- and one of my favorites! I have a tattoo right above my pubic bone and I would be very sad if I couldn't see it! So there ya go... one of my reasons is purely vain


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
this is something i thought of earlier in the thread but couldn't find the right words for. i don't think it is fair to say that women aren't doing it for themselves. even if a woman shaves because she believes that is what other people find attractive, if she wears make up to look more like angelina jolie, and if she wears 4 in heels and mini skirts on her barely above underweight body b/c she thinks that it is attractive b/c that is what the media portrays technically she is still doing all of it for herself. maybe i don't think these things are necessarily true or important but so what? if they are important to her then she is doing it for herself.

some women don't believe SAHMs really choose to do that... and that it is left over oppression or something that is driving that desire... well then they can choose not to SAHM and i say good for them... they can think what they want but that doesn't make it true for me. some women believe that women who WOHM only do it because they feel like they have to or a whole host of other really offensive reasons... but i am 100% certain that there are women who WOHM because they enjoy it and it works for them...people can insist that she doesn't like it until the cows come home but it doesn't actually change anything. there are tons of reasons why people choose to do things and when it comes down to it we make choices based on what is important to us. so in the end what we do is for ourselves.

I agree.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I suppose it was

that made me get all peevy. There are just often posts reprimanding those who use 'vagina' as all encompassing of the female genitalia and it's just old. I apologize for the confusion and the outburst.

Carry on. Hormonal pregnant woman subdued.









Hey what a cool new smilie!

I will be more careful with my use of that phrase. I actually, as I typed it, thought to myself, I should reword that but I don't know why. I just had this feeling that it might not properly convey what I meant, which was along the lines of: I was just reading along, thinking and learning and felt no need to respond, but this particular statement I couldn't just read and not reply. And although I would love that I was just trying to be funny, and made someone laugh, 'cause I love to be funny and make people laugh, in this case, I seriously thought she literally meant a hairless vagina, implying that unshaved women would have hairy vaginas. It had nothing to do with reprimanding anyone. I am a very visual and literal reader and when I read that, I was immediately given a visual as I read.

And I love that new smilie, too.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Assuming you mean "_weren't_ critiqued" I agree.

That's what I meant.

Changed it.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
.

my Vagina Awesomeness Sequence was triggered...as I counted down to the day I would finally meet my first child...somewhere inside, another kind of countdown was taking place...a countdown to the day I would realize my true power as a woman, the day my vagina would reveal to me, what it really is, show me her "stuff" so to speak. I stopped trimming at all during this time and couldn't exactly pinpoint why...it just felt incredibly disrespectful to me...she was like a beast in waiting,I felt that for privacey sake, I needed to grow a coat, not to shield her from view, so much as provide some privacey, for the "big day". I liked how long it got and though my husbands eyes grew wide at catching a glimse of her in full day light...and he would occasionally make comments...it kind of thrilled me that he was so amazed...my vagina really started to look like something else, I'll tell ya! It was almost like it began to LOOK to him, as powerful as I felt it was becoming!

Then I gave birth...and I became like some sort of sorceress! The day I birthed my baby, I realized my POWER! I came into my true, femenine magic. That day completely changed me, the way Isaw myself and my relationships with my vagina, FOREVER. My vagina just knocked my socks off! Suddenly this issue of shaving didn't even seem like it was UP to me....my vagina became this very, very powerful force...almost too powerful to really belong to me. I birthed my baby, and it was like my vagina had become some portal to the universe...this being came OUT of me, through this place I had always had, but never had a true sense of!!

SO....I don't like to shave my lady parts now. They are sacred and I think, it's not so much a patch of hair for me now...it's more like a wizards cloak. To trim her...maybe, maybe at some point, if she gets REALLY unruly....I went a little crazy when my DD was a coupe of months old and I cut off my head hair and a lot of my vulva hair...that was no good. I felt a bit sick at it. I mean, it's like chopping off the cloak of a mighty wizard!! Imagine, a mighty, all powerful wizard...running through life all naked and scraggly looking!! No, no...I don't want to cut it again. It's long and silky and wild looking and it seems fitting....because I feel like a REAL woman now...like magic and femenine mystery...it's not mysterious if you can SEE it, you know?
























Will you please be my new best friend?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm an intermittent shaver of my legs and armpits. I don't shave my pubic hair at all. As for DD, she is welcome to try it out if she wants, but I certainly won't be much of a help in terms of doing it "right." I've gone years without shaving and now shave maybe every 4 months. I assume she will learn that we don't want her to take at face value what the dominant culture pushes at her through the discussions we have throughout her childhood.


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