# Three-year-old abuses his father & the dog



## ATD_Mom (Jun 19, 2006)

I do not understand the difference between a natural consequence and a punishment. Please help!

What in the world do you do when your three-year-old kicks his father in the face? My husband removed DS from the situation by saying, "Get out of the tent." Then my husband came inside, vented to me, then went back outside.

DS: "I'm sorry I kicked you."
DH: "We don't kick people. That's not the way we treat people."
DS: "Yes, it is."
DH: "If you want to kick something, you can kick your ball."
DS: "You're a ball."

etc.

What is a natural consequence of this kind of behavior? I understand if you do it in the store, the natural consequence is that I don't take you to the store next time. But just in general horrible behavior, how do you demonstrate how horrible it is without punishing?

He turns three next week. He is dealing with the huge change of having a new baby sister (DS used to be an only child, DD is now five weeks old). He also has lost all sense of routine, as my husband is now off on parental leave and every day is like a Saturday. He's taking it all out on his father and the dog.

These are all the reasons for him behaving like an absolute a-hole lately (hitting and punching DH, repeatedly kicking the dog, screaming and yelling at birds and small animals in the yard, just in general being horrible to be around). But what I don't understand is what to do about it. My books, such as "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk" are all geared toward older children.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Try to think about what would happen if you did nothing and as your child grew, he continued to kick all his friends. Pretty soon, he wouldn't have anyone to play with right? (assuming of course his friends wouldn't kick him back...which they probably would but isn't really the appropriate course of action for a parent) So the natural consequence is that the child doesn't get to play with anyone. That could be interpreted a number of ways. Your DH's telling him to get out of the tent is one way, you could create a naughty step and if your DH kicks you tell him that since he can't play nice, he can't play at all for 3 minutes, so he has to sit right there. Does it sound like a punishment...sure. That's where punishments came from in the first place. But just because it sounds like a punishement doesn't make it also a natural or logical consequence.


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## ATD_Mom (Jun 19, 2006)

A "naughty step" - do you mean a time out place?

DS constantly yells at us, bossing us around about *everything*. But specifically to DH, he is always telling him to "Go away!" and "Get away from me!" So any time DS physically hurts DH, removing one of them from the situation only makes him get what he wants.

As for the dog - he just kicks her to get attention when the new baby is getting too much, in his opinion. It's frightening to us even more so than it should because he has never - not even one time - been one to crave "any attention is good attention." We're bewildered by the behavior, completely.

The kid has gone from angelic to maddening, and I feel deserted. My "Baby Book" by Dr. Sears held my hand for so long. Now I'm just left high and dry. Where's my guide for the preschool years?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ATD_Mom* 

DS constantly yells at us, bossing us around about *everything*. But specifically to DH, he is always telling him to "Go away!" and "Get away from me!" So any time DS physically hurts DH, removing one of them from the situation only makes him get what he wants.

that kind of behavior would get my loud mad mommy voice (I couldn't even control it if I wanted to). An instant ticket to his bedroom for as long as I saw fit. A review of house rules. A cancellation of the next fun thing we had planned and/or IDK what else. But bad things happen to kids who kick, yell and are otherwise repeatedly unpleasant. A momentary lapse in temper I don't mind. But it sounds like he thinks he's the boss of your DH and that can't continue.

It's hard when there's a new baby!


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
that kind of behavior would get my loud mad mommy voice (I couldn't even control it if I wanted to). An instant ticket to his bedroom for as long as I saw fit. A review of house rules. A cancellation of the next fun thing we had planned and/or IDK what else. But bad things happen to kids who kick, yell and are otherwise repeatedly unpleasant. A momentary lapse in temper I don't mind. But it sounds like he thinks he's the boss of your DH and that can't continue.

It's hard when there's a new baby!

This is pretty much my response, too. I am not known for being super natural consequences, though. I can be authoritarian at times. I believe when someone is behaving in an abusive manner, removing them entirely from a situation so no more hurting can go on is perfectly reasonable.

I would make sure though that before he leaves his room, that you go in and try and connect with him again. Unless he is still behaving very badly, then I would wait until you feel he is approachable Maybe at night when you read to him?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

well i must say ATD_mama i am shocked by your wording used in your post. esp. for a mama who i would assume has been using this board regularly since 2006.

how in the world can a 3 year old 'ABUSE' his father. who is the adult here?

'a-hole'? your OWN SON?

everything you complain about is so typically 2/3 year old behaviour.

the KEY book here is 'playful parenting'. humor can teach so many wonderful lessons.

your son here is trying to figure out life. instead of seeing his actions as personal attacks see them as 'trying to figure out social norms'.

if he kicked dh in the face just the fact that you show your pain NOT anger is education enough.

here are your books.

your 3 year old by louise Ames
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Three-Yea.../dp/0440506492
even though this was written a while back 60s it really is the bible for kids behaviours. in general it truly tells us what's going on with our kids. what's age appropriate. of course the discipline part is old fashioned and should be taken with a pinch of salt. however its a series that goes upto age 12 and is a wonderful set of books to have for reference.

the other Playful parenting by L Cohen (i think this is hte one. same named book is also written by another author).

you are getting to the really hard part and a new baby is making it worse.

all of his actions are more about him and him trying to express where he is now. its the terrible 3s and yes its upon you to figure out how to help them. not by punishment but by explaining.

silliness at this age is perhaps your best parenting tool. while grimacing and showing pain you run away after he's kicked you. well afterall you are a ball. and a ball when kicked runs away. silliness, pantomime has soo effectively reduced the tension around.

most often as you rightly pointed out the solution is in giving both your children equal amount of attention. it is REALLY hard to do. i get it. but it is STILL important. you have to figure out a way of managing that. you'd be surprised at the results.

by the way the your 3 year old is aptly titled '... Friend or enemy'.

if you have time look around this board. you will come across so many threads of parents trying to deal with 3 year olds.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

DS: "I'm sorry I kicked you."
DH: "We don't kick people. That's not the way we treat people."
DS: "Yes, it is."
DH: "If you want to kick something, you can kick your ball."
DS: "You're a ball."

I think you're trying to talk to him too much. He's trying to establish equilibrium after a big change, and kicking and hitting and yelling not only relieve his frustration, but also seem very powerful. After he apologized (a big step for a 3 year old), there was no need to talk more. Maybe just, "I accept your apology. Our rule is we don't hurt people," and then spend some time reconnecting. My Dh has a tendency towards talking the boys into belligerence because he wants them to understand the seriousness of whatever they've done, but I discourage it because children are easily shamed. It's hard sometimes for them to take that step of acknowledging that they were wrong, and belaboring the point can make them want to square their shoulders and fight with you. It's more powerful, and takes the edge off the shame.

Make a simple rule: We don't hurt people and animals. Period. Let him know that you will gently but firmly prevent this from happening EVERY SINGLE TIME. At three, I don't think there's a lot of point in canceling activities, and being overly punitive. Just be aware and on guard for awhile. Also, it sounds like he's needing some time to reconnect. Maybe he and dad (and maybe the dog) need to go to the park for at least an hour every day and just hang out and do fun stuff. If he really wants to be alone, let him. Sometimes, the intensity of an altercation is too much for a person (little or big), and they just need some space. This isn't giving in, it's respecting what a person needs. When he feels better, then you can talk to him about it.

I can't remember if the book was super helpful (







) but I remember reading Your Three Old: Your Enemy, Your Friend when my oldest was 3. It's probably not all the baby -- he's going through some big developmental changes, too, and your compassion coupled with firmness will go a long way.

ETA: I cross-posted with MeeMee -- that's the book I'm talking about.


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## MovnMama (Jul 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
well i must say ATD_mama i am shocked by your wording used in your post. esp. for a mama who i would assume has been using this board regularly since 2006.

how in the world can a 3 year old 'ABUSE' his father. who is the adult here?

'a-hole'? your OWN SON?

everything you complain about is so typically 2/3 year old behaviour.

the KEY book here is 'playful parenting'. humor can teach so many wonderful lessons.

your son here is trying to figure out life. instead of seeing his actions as personal attacks see them as 'trying to figure out social norms'.


No offense, meemee, but this is a bit of a guilt ridden post. The OP was asking for help, and IMO doesn't deserve a lecture on her language. In reality, people are engaged in relationships with each other, even a mother and her 3yo son. And I'm sorry, but ALL people can be jerks to each other, regardless of their developmental stage. Just because the behavior is age-appropriate doesn't make it less mean. The OP, and parents in general for that matter, shouldn't need to exist in a vacuum where they aren't allowed to experience emotions like anger and frustration when their child does unacceptable things, however "typical" the behavior may be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
if he kicked dh in the face just the fact that you show your pain NOT anger is education enough.

OP, this really is sound advice. Another good book is "Taking Back Childhood" which is about media saturation and childrens over-exposure to violent media, but it has some *wonderful* hints on how to help children develop empathy, which is what I sense you feel is lacking in your son. He said sorry, but he's not really sorry, so you want to push it. Our DS is 3 as well, and had a rough spot where he was being a total "jerk" [or insert term here







). Following this book's advice, like meemee's above, works really well.

If our DS hit (or kicked, or whatever) I would shut down, put on my sad-almost-crying face, and mope until he came and gave it a kiss and said sorry (of his own volition! not requested!). Okay, I'm skipping ahead - that response didn't happen right away. But I demonstrated how much I was "hurting" after the hit/kick/pinch/ball-thrown-in-face-on-purpose and if he failed to notice, I got up and left. If he came and asked me to play again, I still had my sad face and was "nursing my owie" if you will (must have a penchant for the dramatic!). So I would explain concretely and simply that my arm/face/leg hurt because of what he did and now I didn't feel like playing. Now the fact that he hurt me has consequences for him that he doesn't like, so he's motivated to 1. rectify the situation and 2. not create a similar situation again.

I swear, this has improved my son's empathy exponentially, just in a few months. Really. Just showing that what hurts really _hurts_. Good luck!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MovnMama* 
No offense, meemee, but this is a bit of a guilt ridden post. The OP was asking for help, and IMO doesn't deserve a lecture on her language. In reality, people are engaged in relationships with each other, even a mother and her 3yo son. And I'm sorry, but ALL people can be jerks to each other, regardless of their developmental stage. Just because the behavior is age-appropriate doesn't make it less mean. The OP, and parents in general for that matter, shouldn't need to exist in a vacuum where they aren't allowed to experience emotions like anger and frustration when their child does unacceptable things, however "typical" the behavior may be.

yikes you are right. i didnt mean to sound like a 'lecture'. however the word 'abuse' is a pretty strong word and having suffered abuse its really sad to hear a parent use that with their child. but i can see it as a way of expressing just how hard this is for OP.

however i didnt say the most important thing that i was trying to express.

something i have discovered over the years.

no matter what you say what you think matters the most. i personally think our unspoken communication is far more stronger than our spoken words but we are not aware of it so much.

so if you are thinking 'a-hole', your child senses that and adds to his aggression.

but to have compassion you need to read what's age appropriate.

seriously if there was one book (series) that helped me parent it was the Louise Bates series. it really helped to find out what was going on with my child and so parent from a compassionate place rather than a frustrated place.

i have also learnt my biggest lesson in parenting was not parenting my child but parenting myself as so many of my own issues came/comes up. i have found most of my parenting struggles have been over my issues and not my dd. she is developmentally being who she is meant to be. but i was having a problem because i was way too stressed or it was bringing up unsolved issues from my childhood.

and let me tell you 3 year olds will bring out the worst within us. as a precursor and training ground for the teens.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

While I think there have been helpful suggestions I think the OP's usage of the word 'abuse' and 'a-hole' speaks more to a disorder in the hierarchy of the home. And personally I wouldn't be 'playing' my way out of that. But maybe I'm just grumpy


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
While I think there have been helpful suggestions I think the OP's usage of the word 'abuse' and 'a-hole' speaks more to a disorder in the hierarchy of the home. And personally I wouldn't be 'playing' my way out of that. But maybe I'm just grumpy









I agree, I don't know why consequenses aren't the answer.

OP I'm sorry times are tough right now. He will learn if you show him the way.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
DS: "I'm sorry I kicked you."
DH: "We don't kick people. That's not the way we treat people."
DS: "Yes, it is."
DH: "If you want to kick something, you can kick your ball."
DS: "You're a ball."

I think you're trying to talk to him too much. He's trying to establish equilibrium after a big change, and kicking and hitting and yelling not only relieve his frustration, but also seem very powerful. After he apologized (a big step for a 3 year old), there was no need to talk more.









: If he apologized on his own, that's BIG for a 3-yo, and really awesome. It should have been accepted and dropped "Thank you for apologizing. That really hurt when you kicked me." Then LATER, talk about how he cannot keep acting this way, and give him acceptable alternatives for when he's frustrated, sad, mad, whatever.

Also the "we don't kick people" - well, actually, techinically, your son _does_ kick people. That's why I've never liked the "we don't" or "we only", because clearly it's not describing what the kid just did, and it almost makes them feel disconnected from the family, you know? If "we" don't kick people, and he just kicked someone, does that mean he's not party of "we" anymore? Is he a horrible kid and you don't love him? (I don't really mean that, more as a thing that might go through his mind which is why he got obnoxious and defensive when your husband said that to him). I much prefer - "hey buddy - it's NOT OK to hurt people like that." (I use a deeper, slightly louder, more serious voice for this kind of thing, easily recognized as different than my normal voice) then later on, in a calm time, something like, "Everyone in this family deserves to be safe. I won't let you keep hurting me (the dog, your sibling, etc.) It's OK to be mad (sad, frustrated, etc.) but it's not OK to kick (hit, push, etc.). Next time, you can say I'm MAD! and stomp your foot (or insert other alternative). If you keep hurting us, you're going to have to cool off somewhere until you can calm down and be gentle again."

For the "go away!", etc. I'd do the same kind of thing. "DS, that's rude and not OK to talk that way. If you want to be alone, ask for privacy please."

The thing is, his emotions are OK. He's allowed to be mad and sad and want to be alone and want you to help him instead of daddy if he's feeling scared becasue of the baby. His emotions aren't the problem. The problem is he's 3 and doesn't know how to express himself. So your jobs is to teach him what TO DO instead of what he's doing. This doesn't mean that you keep letitng him kick people - separating a kid for cool down time when they're repeatedly physical is definitely something I can get behind. Separating without shame though, framing it as a cool down and collect yourself to rejoin us thing instead of "you're bad" thing. The optoin to kick a ball was a good one, but he was already agitated by the previous part of the conversation. If you help him identify the emotion first and give an alternative, it might work a little better.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein* 
I agree, I don't know why consequenses aren't the answer.
.

Because arbitrary consequences don't teach appropriate behaviour. The focus is shifted from fixing behaviour to the punishment.

A child put in time out or a a "naughty step" is most likely not thinking about what they did/what they should do next time, they are not learning about what they should do, they are thinking about the punishment, how not to get caught next time, what they are going to do after, how much they hate the parent (that is what I used to think of)... Even if you talk about it after, it is too often too late.

OP, I agree that you are talking it out too much... the more you talk it out the more you are negotiating the behaviour and giving away your power as a parent. When children hit you need to put up clear boundaries that it is not acceptable. You stop the behaviour and say very clearly something like "We don't hit" and then give an alternative. (pet the dog, tickle daddy, or make it playful like pet daddy etc)

And I agree... Playful parenting is a great book...


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## lmk1 (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi OP, we are dealing with something very similar. I have an almost 3 yo ds, and a 4 week old ds. We don't have a dog, but dh is getting the brunt of "abuse". Ds gave dh a nice big bump on his head -- yes, he meant to hit him. In our case, ds has always had his needs attended to, and mostly by mommy. Now, mommy has to have a baby attached to her boob and isn't able to attend to ds1 all the time, like before. And, ds1 is sick so we've been trying to keep the kids separated. So dh has to take over with ds1, and of course, ds1 doesn't like it. We hear a lot of screaming "GO AWAY" to dh and a lot of throwing toy cars (in the face, etc). What has helped is a LOT of physical activity with daddy outdoors. Like playing tag, swimming in the pool, running around on the playground (and that's daddy doing that too, not just sitting on the bench playing with his blackberry). So, ds1 is feeling more that daddy is fun, and he gets a lot of his extra energy out. The other day, ds actually woke up asking for "papa" which has NEVER happened before, usually he calls for me. Also, we talk about all the things baby can't do...because, part of it is anger at the baby that's redirected. So, we say "baby is crying, can you sing him a song to calm him?". That way, he feels more part of raising baby, rather than just feeling displaced.

In the moment though, displaying the pain "Ouch, that hurt, can you kiss it to make it feel better?", distraction ("I bet that car could use a road to drive on...should we draw one"). If nothing works, then the car gets put away.
In your case, where your dh is saying we kick a ball, I'd go get a ball, and say "Let's kick this ball"... because your son is feeling the need to kick something at that moment...give him something he can kick...if there's no ball around, then a towel, a stuffed animal, whatever...


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ATD_Mom* 
A "naughty step" - do you mean a time out place?

DS constantly yells at us, bossing us around about *everything*. But specifically to DH, he is always telling him to "Go away!" and "Get away from me!" So any time DS physically hurts DH, *removing one of them from the situation only makes him get what he wants*.

As for the dog - he just kicks her to get attention when the new baby is getting too much, in his opinion. It's frightening to us even more so than it should because he has never - not even one time - been one to crave "any attention is good attention." We're bewildered by the behavior, completely.

The kid has gone from angelic to maddening, and I feel deserted. My "Baby Book" by Dr. Sears held my hand for so long. Now I'm just left high and dry. Where's my guide for the preschool years?

Yeah, a "naughty step" is a Supernanny term"







: I watch lots of Supernanny and other trash tv







: In our personal household, we don't call it a "naughty step" or a time out or anything...it's just "go to your room and sit on your bed!"









As to what I bolded, if your goal is to NOT give him what he wants-ie for something not fun to happen in response to bad behavior, then your goal is not natural consequences. Which is still ok, IMO, but specifically looking for a negative consequence is more of a punishment rather than a natural consequence. A natural consequence isn't necessarily negative, but simply would would naturally happen. But again, IMO, that's ok, I do believe that punishments have their place as well in a discipline philosophy.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

I actually don't think that the word "abuse" is being misused here. It has several definitions, at least two of which fit the behavior described. (To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use, To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile)

Personally, the world would stop spinning on it's axis for a child who mistreated people (and animals) like that. No privelages, no fun. People who are mean and nasty and physically injurious to others remove themselves from eligibility for fun stuff, at least in our family. And I know that's not "playful" or "natural", but that's what would happen. That a child feels entitled to injure others and has no empathy for them is quite scary and cannot be permitted to continue.

I have a three year old and he is well old enough to understand that consequences which aren't necessarily "natural" apply directly to his behavior.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MovnMama* 
If our DS hit (or kicked, or whatever) I would shut down, put on my sad-almost-crying face, and mope until he came and gave it a kiss and said sorry (of his own volition! not requested!). Okay, I'm skipping ahead - that response didn't happen right away. But I demonstrated how much I was "hurting" after the hit/kick/pinch/ball-thrown-in-face-on-purpose and if he failed to notice, I got up and left. If he came and asked me to play again, I still had my sad face and was "nursing my owie" if you will (must have a penchant for the dramatic!). So I would explain concretely and simply that my arm/face/leg hurt because of what he did and now I didn't feel like playing. Now the fact that he hurt me has consequences for him that he doesn't like, so he's motivated to 1. rectify the situation and 2. not create a similar situation again.

I swear, this has improved my son's empathy exponentially, just in a few months. Really. Just showing that what hurts really _hurts_. Good luck!

This is also an excellent suggestion and a great interpretation of a natural consequence. Because in the real world, that really is something that happens...when I child hits/kicks etc another child, that other child is just as likely to cry and take off and then not want to play again later.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paxye* 
Because arbitrary consequences don't teach appropriate behaviour. The focus is shifted from fixing behaviour to the punishment.

A child put in time out or a a "naughty step" is most likely not thinking about what they did/what they should do next time, they are not learning about what they should do, they are thinking about the punishment, how not to get caught next time, what they are going to do after, how much they hate the parent (that is what I used to think of)... Even if you talk about it after, it is too often too late.

I don't think a "naughty step" or spot or whatever, is necessarily arbitrary all the time though. Sometimes the natural consequence of a child's action is that the child ends up isolated. If child A hits child B on the playground, child B is very likely to avoid child A. The kids child A hits, the more they avoid him, and soon, child A is all alone on the playground. So, placing the child on a "naughty spot"/in time out/in his room etc, is simply creating that isolation and seperation at home or wherever else you are at. It's not about making them "think about what they did" (man I hated that term, and when I used to get sent to my room, I used to plot to trap my parents in some elaborate cartoon like trap







: ) it's just about creating the same situation with what you have at home or in the store or whatever.

When it becomes arbitrary and a punishment is when that "naughty spot" is not in any way related to the offense. For example...throwing food...the most natural consequences of throwing food are that you don't have any food to eat and you have to clean the mess you made. Not really isolation from friends. So isolating the child on a naughty spot isn't really connected in any way.
[/QUOTE]


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## ATD_Mom (Jun 19, 2006)

Wearing the newborn who doesn't want me to stop moving, so bear with me ...

I re-wrote the title for the thread four or five times, trying to come up with something that would be short, to the point, get noticed (hence the term "abuse," which is not necessarily the way I feel). He is certainly singling out DH, though - but he has been doing that for months. Once I became noticeably pregnant, he would hoard time and touch and attention with me. He wouldn't let DH put his hand on my belly, would scream and push it away, saying "Give me room! There's no room for you!" Anyhow, he has always bossed around both of us*, but centered most of it on DH. It's only post-baby that he has started using his hands and feet on him.

(*For example, when you start up a set of stairs, he starts screaming that it's his turn, and we have to wait for our turn. If you don't wait your turn, you have a 10-minute tantrum on your hands. What would you do if you were driving around a subdivision, looking at houses, and your child started screaming, "Don't turn your head! Stop turning your head! Stop that right now! Do not turn your head! Don't do that any MORE!" repetitively and then started crying and kicking? This is what I mean by bossing us around. DH gives in to it and stops, just to stop the tantrum. Sometimes it's certainly the easiest thing to do.)

When he tells DH to get out of bed at story time, DH shows how much it hurts him, in words and in actions. And I go to DH and give him a hug and tell him how sorry I am (something I got from "Siblings Without Rivalry" - give attention to the receiver of the hurt, not the giver). But generally DH still leaves. Because at this point we are all so tired, we can't deal with the tantrum.

I don't even remember writing "a-hole!" I can't believe I did. In fact, I don't even remember responding to my own thread. We have never used any negative terms to describe DS. Never "called him a name" - even something such as "whiny" or "bossy" or even thought of him secretly as being any sort of negative word. He may boss us, but we don't call him bossy. This is different, right? (We even turned our noses when people used the term "terrible twos" to describe their children. Because if you think of them as being terrible ...)

But we are tired. _Very tired._ Dealing with a baby who cries inconsolably for many hours of the day and a 3-yr-old who doesn't sleep well and the stress of a move. We're all a bit frazzled. Frustration apparently leads to cursing in our house (our of ear-shot, of course).

This morning, before I read any of your responses, I said to DH, "We assume his behaviors are age-appropriate, but I'm lost without a book that explains just what is appropriate and most importantly what is the appropriate reaction. We can't keep doing things like calling him a jerk under our breath when he's not around, because if we think he's a jerk, then he will be one. We've never done anything like that before." So I smiled when I read your responses this morning. Of course, of course, thought I - we know all of this. We just needed to stop and think.

I just can't do punishment, such as time-outs or sending him to his room (he doesn't even have a room, anyway). Playful Parenting (skimmed the book a couple years ago) is what we have always been about - we've always been able to distract with something better and more fun, etc. I've watched, jaw-dropped, when other parents come to my house and do things such as sit on the couch, yelling, "Son, get off of the rocking chair. Get off the chair. Get down off the chair now!" My reaction would have been to walk over to the chair, gently say, "DS, we don't stand on the rocking chair." and carry him over somewhere else to entertain him.

But our creativity is gone right now. Just absolutely gone. And this is coupled with him acting in ways we would never imagine him acting. Which is what causes us to just walk away, go into the other room, and vent, then go back and see if he's better.

DS and DH get alone time together all the time. They go on hikes together, they play outside, they go on bike rides, run errands. I think it's all this alone time with DH that he's upset about. DH used to be at work all day, and DS had me all to himself. Now he's stuck with DH all the time when he really wants to be with me. I try to give him as much time as I can - just the two of us, with DH on a walk with DD.

I also try not to lecture him. But I have before, though. Once, when DH tried to put him to bed. He screamed and yelled and hit and finally DH couldn't take it any longer and left. When I came in, DS said, "I'm sorry I hit Papa." I explained, "DS, do you know that when you say you're sorry it means you won't do it again?" And then he just argued with me, saying that isn't what it means, and that of course he'll do it again, etc. Which is what I get, for trying to lecture a 3-yr-old.

When he hits the dog, I go to her and tell her how sorry I am and ask her if she is okay and make a big deal over her, rubbing and hugging her. Then I lead DS to another place and project. If you say, "DS, do not hit the dog. We do not hit anyone." He will say, "I WAS JUST DOING THAT!" and try to do it again.

I'm so thankful for the book recommendations. A teacher I know is a huge promoter of "Conscious Discipline" and runs an incredible park program for parents and kids, where they hang little helpful signs around about going to a soft, dark place with your child, and holding them, when they do something you don't want them to do (gently trying to guide parents away from time-outs and punishment). Unfortunately this program is 32 hours away ... So this teacher is getting a phone call from me this morning. I'll add her book recs to yours, and dive in. In between researching excruciating gas pain in babies.

Sorry for the ramble. And the oatmeal burned.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

But he *did* have empathy. He apologized, *unprompted*, when his dad came out of the tent. That's huge for a 3 yo. He only got sassy when dad kept talking about it after he had made amends. I know when I've apologized to someone for doing something, I don't like them to keep telling me about why what I did was wrong, it's annoying. "YEAH. I GOT IT. I SAID I WAS SORRY." is usually my response. it's called harping. And it's grating to anyone, even kids. I do it to my kids sometimes, and I know it annoys them.







And this thread is a good reminder to me to knock it off.

The kicking is not OK. I don't think anyone thinks it is. But IMO, stripping a 3 yo of all fun and privileges because they're having a developmentally normal hard time controlling their frustrations is like making a baby sit in their crib alone because they were crying becasue they were wet. Separating a kid who is aggressive is a natural, brief consequence that they will get and connect with their behavior - again, not framing as "naughty" or timing it X minnutes per age, but as "let's calm down and get back in control, here's how" and as soon as they're calm rejoin the group - even go with them if that's better for them - some kids need connection, some kids need space (mine need space - comforting them through a tantrum/tough time makes it 10 times worse). So it's not that you don't do *anything* and let the kid keep hurting people; you just give an age-appropriate consequence AND the acceptable alternatives. 3 yos don't ahve a huge attention span or long term memory, so consequences that go beyond a short timeframe aren't going to be connected in their brain to the past undesirable behavior.


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## ATD_Mom (Jun 19, 2006)

p.s. It took a long time to write that response, so I haven't even read six or eight of the posts above it yet.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ATD_Mom* 
Once I became noticeably pregnant, he would hoard time and touch and attention with me. He wouldn't let DH put his hand on my belly, would scream and push it away, saying "Give me room! There's no room for you!" Anyhow, he has always bossed around both of us*, but centered most of it on DH. It's only post-baby that he has started using his hands and feet on him.

(*For example, when you start up a set of stairs, he starts screaming that it's his turn, and we have to wait for our turn. If you don't wait your turn, you have a 10-minute tantrum on your hands. What would you do if you were driving around a subdivision, looking at houses, and your child started screaming, "Don't turn your head! Stop turning your head! Stop that right now! Do not turn your head! Don't do that any MORE!" repetitively and then started crying and kicking? This is what I mean by bossing us around. DH gives in to it and stops, just to stop the tantrum. Sometimes it's certainly the easiest thing to do.)

Okayyyyyy, I'll try to say this gently. You HAVE to stop giving in to him on things like this. Yes, he will tantrum. That's OK. He'll tantrum a lot in the beginning. Again, it's OK. It will be LOUD, and it will last a long time. I've been there, done that with my feisty daughter. You can even sympathize with him how angry he is about not getting his way (but don't patronize). It's OK for him to be mad and loud about it UNTIL he learns better ways to handle it. And you're going to teach him better ways to handle it.

Going up the steps: "DS, there are no turns on the steps. Wherever you are is where you are and you walk up the steps safely. There is no passing or pushing on the steps, it's dangerous." Then pick him up and put him back to the bottom of the steps if necessary. Repeat 700 times if necessary. I've had my kids come back to the bottom of the steps 3 or 4 times in a row sometimes if they're jockeying for position on the steps to get up first. Them keep coming back to the bottom until they walk up safely without shoving. You *could* set up a set of taking turns on the steps, but I know with my kids, that's just exhausting....because they will become so fixated on who's "turn" it is that it stops being fun and becomes more of a problem than just saying "knock it off". In our house, sometimes playful makes things more complicated. Not always - sometimes playful works great. Other times, not so much.

For the car and shouting: You pull over and stop the car, and say in your strongest, but calmest voice. "You may NOT speak this way to me when I'm driving. It's unsafe, and completely unacceptable. You do not get to decide who looks where in a car. The car is for everyone to ride in. " Don't start the car again until he has calmed down. If he starts again, stop the car again. We had an issue with my DD when she was 3, telling my DS he wasn't allowed to look out her window, and she would scream about it too. I had to pull over probably 5 times and tell her loudly, firmly, and calmly that this was completely unacceptable, that the car was not her kingdom and she didn't get to decide who looked where. The hardest part of the whole thing is staying calm while they are not. This is not a cold, mean calm, but a warm, firm and unmoving calm.

You're going to have to ride out the tantrums for a while, which I KNOW is exhausting. My DD was very much like this, and still can be at times. She is definitely not doing it as much at 4 as she did at 3. But I can imagine if we gave in to her, she still would be doing it. I've had to direct her on:
-Not shouting "STOP LOOKING AT ME!" at people who smile at her.
-Not shouting "YOU CAN"T HAVE IT, IT"S MINE!" to an adult who admires something like her shirt or a toy she's carrying.
-Not pushing her way to the front of a line
-Not shouting at her older brother when he tries to sing along with her, or play a game with her.

Those are just the situations I can think of off the top of my head. There are many more. I've had to spend a LOT of time with her giving her direction on appropriate responses to things. And not giving in to the demands. I've not punished her for her reactions, but I've also not given in to her, apologized for her when necessary, and had her make age-appropriate amends when possible. It has been exhausting, quite frankly. *But* ...her spirit is still intact, for sure, AND she is developing into quite a delightful, respectful, but still feisty little girl. She still has her moments, and we still handle them the same way. But the moments are coming fewer and farther between.

Being firm and setting limits and boundaries for this kind of thing, when you have a really intense, demanding child isn't mean, it's actually helping them to learn what the limits of social interaction are, and teaching them how to treat people kindly and respectfully. And not *all* interactions are like this.....the day is full of fun, and times when she *does* get to decide how things go. But when she acts like that, there's no way. If it's a reasonable request, and she can ask politely and kindly, we'll do it. But demanding someone not look out her car window, it's just not happening.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happysmileylady* 
I don't think a "naughty step" or spot or whatever, is necessarily arbitrary all the time though. Sometimes the natural consequence of a child's action is that the child ends up isolated. If child A hits child B on the playground, child B is very likely to avoid child A. The kids child A hits, the more they avoid him, and soon, child A is all alone on the playground. So, placing the child on a "naughty spot"/in time out/in his room etc, is simply creating that isolation and seperation at home or wherever else you are at.

Sorry, I honestly don't agree with that... yes, isolation *may* happen on the playground... or it may not... have you even seen other kids diffuse the situation themselves and turn the violence of one into a game and then everyone starts having fun... I have..

Time-outs are not logical or natural... as you said, you are creating a situation that may or may not happen and only punishes a symptom of behaviour instead of getting to the root of the problem and learning what to do instead.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I have lived the experience of using time-outs and seriously damaging my relationship with my oldest son because of it. It took a long time to re-establish the attachment that we once had and I just don't agree with them and never will.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

oh mama my shoulders feel heavy thinking ALL that you have on your shoulders.

everything that you write - everything - i find is all about you and your dh. it really has nothing to do with ur toddler. he is being who he is. your baby is being who baby is.

you ARE living a parents nightmare. just the two of you. a new place. no help. no sleep.

on top of all this you burnt the oatmeal. now you cant even cook









this is an incredible amount of pressure on you.

every piece of your sons behaviour is age appropriate.

the place you need to find and focus on is finding compassion for your child. the only way you can do that is by meeting some of your needs.

in whatever way you can manage. between dh and you. start with very little things. showers at midnight - hopefully uninterrupted. a walk in the park all of you. delve deep inside you and try to touch whatever it is that meets your needs.

you have so little left over for your children that you can only parent them but not enjoy them. and yes those are two different things.

i dont know if you have any chance of help.

but please.

stop.

find something ANYTHING that takes care of you. even if its a moment to enjoy thehumming bird outside your window.

or just to sit down and nurse and enjoy a glass of cold water.

you HAVE to find something. keep searching and find those things that helps you center yourself. find your calm. you dont have an option and dont say you have no time. it doesnt take time to find the peace. it can happen with the snap of the finger. you have to keep looking for whatever touches you. both you and your dh.

take time to sometimes just watch your children. no interaction. but just watch them.

research about whats age appropriate for your son and focusing on finding some calm within the both of you - will automatically give you ideas of how to help your child thru this hard time. it is really really hard for 3 year olds. its not just parents who 'suffer'. its our kids too. they dont have the verbal intellect to express what's going on inside them. kinda its like the beginning of teenage years. its the same kinda angst.

when children go thru growth spurts and a lot of physical and emotional development which 3 year is all about - esp. consciousness dvt - being aware of the world around them - they react terribly. they cant stop themselves.

take care of yourselves mama. no one no one is going to do that for you. YOU have to put yourself first because without you your children suffer.

if you need help coming up with ideas about self care post in the personal growth forum.


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## candycat (Jun 20, 2010)

If my 3 year old kicked me in the face on purpose I would not run around pretending to be a ball. Sorry.

If I were in that situation I would display my outrage visibly - not angrily but obviously. To make clear that we just don't DO that. I might yell in pain or put on a shocked, outraged look. Then I would probably send the child away until I calmed down, explaining WHY. ("Please go sit in your room / on the log / whatever until I calm down a little. I am very angry that you kicked me and I need to calm down.") Then I'd go there in a minute and talk (briefly) about why we don't kick people. And then try to give some attention to him if that's what he craved, but making clear that there are BETTER ways of getting attention than kicking. Then I'd try to wrap it all up with a hug or such. I wouldn't take away a privilege later on (to me that's a punishment, not a consequence) unless we were, say, at someone's house at which point we might just leave and go home. But I wouldn't cancel a fun trip after we "made up". I want my kids to know that if they mess up they're still loved and it's not the end of the world, but gosh darn it it's my job to teach them how to behave appropriately in society. Kicking people isn't acceptable.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candycat* 
But I wouldn't cancel a fun trip after we "made up". I want my kids to know that if they mess up they're still loved and it's not the end of the world.

to be clear I wouldn't start pulling trips etc unless it was at the OP's level where this is repeated behaviour and the whole child/parent thing seems to be out of whack.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
Okayyyyyy, I'll try to say this gently. You HAVE to stop giving in to him on things like this. Yes, he will tantrum. That's OK. He'll tantrum a lot in the beginning. Again, it's OK. It will be LOUD, and it will last a long time. I've been there, done that with my feisty daughter. You can even sympathize with him how angry he is about not getting his way (but don't patronize). It's OK for him to be mad and loud about it UNTIL he learns better ways to handle it. And you're going to teach him better ways to handle it.

Going up the steps: "DS, there are no turns on the steps. Wherever you are is where you are and you walk up the steps safely. There is no passing or pushing on the steps, it's dangerous." Then pick him up and put him back to the bottom of the steps if necessary. Repeat 700 times if necessary. I've had my kids come back to the bottom of the steps 3 or 4 times in a row sometimes if they're jockeying for position on the steps to get up first. Them keep coming back to the bottom until they walk up safely without shoving. You *could* set up a set of taking turns on the steps, but I know with my kids, that's just exhausting....because they will become so fixated on who's "turn" it is that it stops being fun and becomes more of a problem than just saying "knock it off". In our house, sometimes playful makes things more complicated. Not always - sometimes playful works great. Other times, not so much.

For the car and shouting: You pull over and stop the car, and say in your strongest, but calmest voice. "You may NOT speak this way to me when I'm driving. It's unsafe, and completely unacceptable. You do not get to decide who looks where in a car. The car is for everyone to ride in. " Don't start the car again until he has calmed down. If he starts again, stop the car again. We had an issue with my DD when she was 3, telling my DS he wasn't allowed to look out her window, and she would scream about it too. I had to pull over probably 5 times and tell her loudly, firmly, and calmly that this was completely unacceptable, that the car was not her kingdom and she didn't get to decide who looked where. The hardest part of the whole thing is staying calm while they are not. This is not a cold, mean calm, but a warm, firm and unmoving calm.

You're going to have to ride out the tantrums for a while, which I KNOW is exhausting. My DD was very much like this, and still can be at times. She is definitely not doing it as much at 4 as she did at 3. But I can imagine if we gave in to her, she still would be doing it. I've had to direct her on:
-Not shouting "STOP LOOKING AT ME!" at people who smile at her.
-Not shouting "YOU CAN"T HAVE IT, IT"S MINE!" to an adult who admires something like her shirt or a toy she's carrying.
-Not pushing her way to the front of a line
-Not shouting at her older brother when he tries to sing along with her, or play a game with her.

Those are just the situations I can think of off the top of my head. There are many more. I've had to spend a LOT of time with her giving her direction on appropriate responses to things. And not giving in to the demands. I've not punished her for her reactions, but I've also not given in to her, apologized for her when necessary, and had her make age-appropriate amends when possible. It has been exhausting, quite frankly. *But* ...her spirit is still intact, for sure, AND she is developing into quite a delightful, respectful, but still feisty little girl. She still has her moments, and we still handle them the same way. But the moments are coming fewer and farther between.

Being firm and setting limits and boundaries for this kind of thing, when you have a really intense, demanding child isn't mean, it's actually helping them to learn what the limits of social interaction are, and teaching them how to treat people kindly and respectfully. And not *all* interactions are like this.....the day is full of fun, and times when she *does* get to decide how things go. But when she acts like that, there's no way. If it's a reasonable request, and she can ask politely and kindly, we'll do it. But demanding someone not look out her car window, it's just not happening.

I agree with this. Tantrums are normal, and until he learns about the concept of futility, that he doesn't control the world and everything is not always going to go exactly how he would like it to go, he is going to have tantrums. Giving into his tantrums is not going to help him learn what he needs to learn. I wouldn't punish for them or get upset about them or take them personally, but I wouldn't give into them either. Just ride them out as calmly as you can, don't get dragged into his drama, and give him love because he'll need it (and the concept of unconditional love - that being angry at someone doesn't mean you stop loving them - is another thing he's learning.) It will be tiring while he's going through this lesson, but once he's learned it he'll be much more easy going.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

You've got no time, I understand.

But if you have ANY time, I suggest finding a copy of "The Scientist in the Crib" and reading all the bits about how babies and toddlers and preschoolers learn about the social structure in which they live.

A *lot* of what a three-year-old is doing is trying to figure out the social structure of the human pack in which s/he lives. And to do this, they test boundaries. They purposely transgress, in order to see who is in charge, who they can trust. Some kids just *see* the order of things, some need to push limits to *test*. It's the social equivalent of a baby dropping their spoon over and over again to watch it fall -- it's data collection, only about social skills rather than about the physical world.

THis isn't "bad," this isn't "wrong," -- but humans are baby primates, and they need to know that the bigger primates have everything safely in hand.

You don't need to scream and hit and lock people in closets to show them this -- but I think repeated behavior like this is often a child who is unsure of where everyone fits together trying to *make* adults show them the structure of their monkey troop. I don't agree with "sit on your butt parenting," like you describe -- yelling across the room (though, with a 10yo and 7yo, I can do that sometimes now!). But "get off your butt parenting" isn't always enough unless you are clear and somewhat consistent about what it is you're actually expecting from your baby monkey.


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## ATD_Mom (Jun 19, 2006)

I've learned more today than I can even remember/grasp, let alone type. But in a way of thank you and clarification and cleansing, I offer this little bit:

- DH went to work for a few hours this morning, and suddenly my mind was uncluttered and I saw some clarity. I re-read my first post, and the frustration/name-calling frightened me. Because it didn't sound like me. At all. Then I realized who it sounded like was DH. He's been off work for 8 weeks, and in that time I have lost touch with reality a bit (due to the new baby and move and my mother being with us) and have fallen into his way of reacting to things (he's been getting frustrated and name-calling under his breath for many months now).

- DH is an incredibly sensitive person, takes everything to heart. When DS becomes angry with DH, he cries and says, "I want mamaaaa." DH's reaction is, "Of course you do," in a deeply hurt and p.o.ed, throw-in-the-towel sort of way. (When DS is angry with me, he hugs me and cries.) Anyhow. In DH's sleepless state, this has resulted in a parenting style that is basically "I let you walk all over me, I become increasing angry that you are walking all over me, then become absolutely frustrated and cranky." Somehow this works for him. It does not for me. I cannot believe I called DS a name, even in my mind, let alone in a forum.

- DH and I are not consistent with DS. I am bossy (surprise!) and am constantly reminding DH of how we would like to parent ... which makes him even more tense and easily frustrated ... which makes him parent even more unlike the way either of us want. I'm really feeling for poor DH.

- I honestly thought bossiness was a stage - and am so thankful to have been shown the light. While DH gives in to the bosses, I generally just plow through them (just walk right up the stairs; just keep on looking where I want in the car). I wasn't using it as a situation in which I could teach or guide DS to show him the right way. I get it now.

- I am so passionate about not punishing my children that I have not gotten a grasp at all on natural consequences, and you've given me so many examples that I think I am now starting to get it. It's just hard in a tired state to, in the moment, come up with the natural consequence for certain behaviors.

- The teacher I called today reminded me of something so obvious. "You have a new tiny baby, which makes DS look so big, and so grown up suddenly. It's easy to expect a lot more of him now. You have to remember he isn't even three yet." Which couldn't be more correct.

- We stopped doing the "off your butt" parenting thing a few months ago, because he stopped requiring it. I could simply say, "DS, please play the piano gently" and he would. But now I realize we need to get back to our toddler methods. Sit down on the bench beside him and say, "We play the piano gently, like this ..." Again, sleepless state interfered with us seeing the obvious.

- Books are now on request from the library: "Easy to love, difficult to discipline", "Playful Parenting", "The Scientist in the Crib" (this final one sounds like exactly the kind of book that will work for my brain - I need to understand the whys).

- Most importantly: This is truly such a sweet, sweet kid I have here. I have said this so often, have been told the same. I have many times sat down and told him how much I love to hang out with him; he's just a joy to be around. He _does_ understand "Sorry." Tonight we had a little tiff: He wanted to go to sleep holding a flashlight. Unfortunately, he cannot fall to sleep with a toy in his hand. He'll fidget with it for hours instead of sleeping. So we always put them away (just next to his pillow or on the floor) until morning. Tonight he was too tired for this. Started throwing a screeching fit. After I finally got him to put the flashlight under his pillow, we set about to reading another story. When it was through, he rolled over, sighed, and said, "Maman, I'm sorry I wanted my flashlight." I hugged him and thanked him, told him it was okay to want his flashlight. He said, "I just didn't want to put it away."

Despite how it sounds, I do think we're doing okay, in a clueless sort of way. He lashed out at DH last week, and then came in to me and DD nursing in bed, saying, "I'm sorry I hit Papa." "You hit Papa?" "Ya. He wouldn't let me do x." He seemed to want to talk about it, so we made a little list of all the things he could do when he became frustrated. This seemed to help an awful lot.

I still don't understand the difference between a _threat_ and a _consequence_. Do you explain to DC what the consequence will be if he keeps doing x? Or does this become a threat? For example, tonight DS and I were giving DD a bath at the kitchen sink. He pushed my arm out of his way. I explained pushing isn't acceptable; it's dangerous. I told him if he wasn't able to nicely ask me to move, he'd have to get down from the chair. He pushed me again, while saying, "Please move out of my way." I explained he needed to do it without pushing. He tried to push me, just a little bit, just testing the limit, see how far he could go. I gently and quietly put him on the floor. He started crying. I kept quietly washing the baby, letting DS hold my leg and cry.

DH walked into the room and, before I could say anything (slippery baby in my hands!), put DS back on the chair, saying, "It's okay, just be sure to not push. Mama asked you to not push anymore."

Sigh.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ATD_Mom* 
I still don't understand the difference between a _threat_ and a _consequence_. Do you explain to DC what the consequence will be if he keeps doing x? Or does this become a threat? .

This was a hard one for me to get my mind around, too - and I'm still not sure I really have it, but here's my take:

A threat, to me, is usually like an arbitrary punishment made to bully the kid into doing what you want, and often is dramatic and/or never actually enforced. "If you don't stop pushing me, you won't get TV for a week!" "If you don't calm down I'm never bringing you shopping again!" Laying out a consequence, on the other hand, usually has to do more with a logical consequence that flows from the situation and while designed to get the kid to stop what they're doing, is from a genuine explanation/concern and the consequence is not overly harsh or long term. "If you keep pushing me and I fall, you won't be able to stand near me while I wash the baby. I have to keep us all safe. Please be still."

Honestly, sometimes it still feels like a threat. And it's not my favorite thing to do. But with my particular kids and their particular dispositions combined with my particular energies, resources, and emotional limits, it is honestly the calmest, gentlest thing I can do for all of us sometimes. Otherwise, chaos would reign and I would seriously freak out.









The biggest realization I've had in the past 6 months is that I have to parent my kids the way they need to be parented, not necessarily exactly how I envisioned. I was a very compliant, calm child by nature and my parents would just explain things to me and I would do them. I was punished one time my entire childhood, for lying about not practicing my piano, I had to miss a TV show I wanted to watch and practice right then







. My kids are not calm and compliant by nature; they are testers, envelope pushers, and get sucked into chaos very quickly...so they need more structure, and firmer boundaries and limits than I did or they would be pretty unruly and unpleasant to be around...and they are pretty unruly if I try to go to a more consensual model to see if they're ready to move back towards it. We still try for mutual solutions when we can, but when things start to go haywire we pull trump cards. We're still within the umbrella of GD IMO, just the more authoritative, parent in charge kind of GD. I hope as they mature to get back to more mutual solutions and less parent directed solutions, but for now this is what our family needs for the most harmony for *everyone* in the house.

ETA: I'm so glad to read your post and that this thread has been helpful - it's been helpful to me too, it always is to type things out.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
*Also the "we don't kick people" - well, actually, techinically, your son does kick people.* That's why I've never liked the "we don't" or "we only", because clearly it's not describing what the kid just did, and it almost makes them feel disconnected from the family, you know? If "we" don't kick people, and he just kicked someone, does that mean he's not party of "we" anymore? Is he a horrible kid and you don't love him? (I don't really mean that, more as a thing that might go through his mind which is why he got obnoxious and defensive when your husband said that to him). I much prefer - "hey buddy - it's NOT OK to hurt people like that." (I use a deeper, slightly louder, more serious voice for this kind of thing, easily recognized as different than my normal voice) then later on, in a calm time, something like, "Everyone in this family deserves to be safe. I won't let you keep hurting me (the dog, your sibling, etc.) It's OK to be mad (sad, frustrated, etc.) but it's not OK to kick (hit, push, etc.). Next time, you can say I'm MAD! and stomp your foot (or insert other alternative). If you keep hurting us, you're going to have to cool off somewhere until you can calm down and be gentle again."


For the bolded, I use the phrases, "Feet are not for kicking", "Hands are not for hitting", "Teeth are not for biting" etc. There is an awesome picture book series with books titled all of these phrases, and while I only have the one about biting, its an AWESOME book and my ds LOVES it. It would be worth seeing if your library has it, or if you can afford to order online from amazon or something. The biting one gives kids great alternatives to biting, and emphasizes that biting hurts people - I bet the kicking one is similar. My ds is only 20mo, but I think the book is a little advanced for him maybe - it might be more age-appropriate for a 3yo. Or it might be a little young, but I think thats ok.

ETA - These are great books for when your ds is happy, and for when he's just calming down from being mad. The biting one is really good, and I've been wanting the rest too. They might be really good for your DH to read to him since he sounds like he gets frustrated - these might be a good way for him to connect with your ds. Good luck!!


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paxye* 
A child put in time out or a a "naughty step" is most likely not thinking about what they did/what they should do next time, they are not learning about what they should do, they are thinking about the punishment, how not to get caught next time, what they are going to do after, how much they hate the parent (that is what I used to think of)... Even if you talk about it after, it is too often too late.

I disagree. I think that putting someone in a timeout whenever there is a misbehavior probably isn't the best way to solve things, but when emotions are heated, with children and parents, a time out is best for ALL parties. There has to be a reconnection though with a real conversation about what transpired and suggestions about appropriate ways to behave.

Just like with adults, if you're both angry in the moment, a discussion will turn into a fight, but if emotions are well controlled and you can think clearly, then there can be a productive conversation.


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## slylives (Mar 4, 2007)

I wanted to make a comment about your son's violence towards your dog. You need to make that stop *NOW*. Your poor dog has no idea of why this is going on, and you need to do your damndest to ensure that the two of them are never alone together (and yes, I really do understand that this is so much easier said than done!)

But, if I put this in GD terms - the natural consequence of your son hitting you dog is that one day your dog is going to turn around and bite him. Maybe it will be a nip on your son's hand. Or maybe it will be a jaw clamped around his face.


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slylives* 
I wanted to make a comment about your son's violence towards your dog. You need to make that stop *NOW*. Your poor dog has no idea of why this is going on, and you need to do your damndest to ensure that the two of them are never alone together (and yes, I really do understand that this is so much easier said than done!)

But, if I put this in GD terms - the natural consequence of your son hitting you dog is that one day your dog is going to turn around and bite him. Maybe it will be a nip on your son's hand. Or maybe it will be a jaw clamped around his face.









there is too much at stake there. The natural consequence could cost your dog its life, and your son could end up with a lifelong fear of dogs.








Good luck, your DS sounds like a sweet boy and you sound like a very caring parent, I hope you're through this phase soon and safely.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ATD_Mom* 
I do not understand the difference between a natural consequence and a punishment. Please help!

What in the world do you do when your three-year-old kicks his father in the face? My husband removed DS from the situation by saying, "Get out of the tent." Then my husband came inside, vented to me, then went back outside.

DS: "I'm sorry I kicked you."
DH: "We don't kick people. That's not the way we treat people."
DS: "Yes, it is."
DH: "If you want to kick something, you can kick your ball."
DS: "You're a ball."

etc.

What is a natural consequence of this kind of behavior? I understand if you do it in the store, the natural consequence is that I don't take you to the store next time. But just in general horrible behavior, how do you demonstrate how horrible it is without punishing?

He turns three next week. He is dealing with the huge change of having a new baby sister (DS used to be an only child, DD is now five weeks old). He also has lost all sense of routine, as my husband is now off on parental leave and every day is like a Saturday. He's taking it all out on his father and the dog.

These are all the reasons for him behaving like an absolute a-hole lately (hitting and punching DH, repeatedly kicking the dog, screaming and yelling at birds and small animals in the yard, just in general being horrible to be around). But what I don't understand is what to do about it. My books, such as "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk" are all geared toward older children.

If you hurt someone they get angry or stop playing with you. I've been talking to my DD about the possible consequences of different behaviors since she turned 3. We also talked about what kind of person she wants to be and how her behavior should match who she is. Also how people will see her based on how she behaves. So at 3 my DD wanted to be a princess and a superhero, so a princess is nice, kind and friendly while a superhero is brave, good and helps people. Neither one would kick daddy in the face or be really rude and bossy. Maybe you get the idea. Two things that helped were the idea that the behavior isn't the person but a choice and not to take the behavior personally. It's just an expression of stress and a lack of self control.

Your DS has anger because of the new baby and the loss of his routine. Getting a new routine will probably help. I don't think saying "I don't let people hurt me" and leaving the tent is punishment. The idea that people don't want to play with us if we hurt them is an important idea. Stopping the play anytime your DS hurts your DH on purpose could help stop the behavior.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I saw several people suggesting playfulness....We do a lot of playful, silly parenting over here (for example we have a Butt Song that we sing to break the mood when things are getting ugly...I know, I know,) and my child is by no means perfect so i'm probably talking out my a$$ here, HOWEVER.

Just yesterday my child who is not even three yet saw someone else being rough (with the dog, incidentally) and he went over to him and said, "you need to cut it out or you'll be in biiiiig trouble with me!" to whic the other child (who is 7) said, "my mommy doesn't care" to which my ds replied, "if I was mean to Jasper (the dog) my mama would kick my butt!" and he picked up jasper and moved him away from the offender.

disclaimer: we do not do any literal butt-kicking around here. But my two year old still knows that unprovoked hitting of the dog is wrong and is a big deal. And he had the sense to move the dog. So I don't see how it is unreasonable to expect a child not to hit his own father. God help my ds if he ever hit anyone in this family. I think something stronger than distraction is called for, really.

lots of things are annoying but still tolerable. physical violence is not one of them. After all, everyone goes on and on about how wrong it is to spank....is it not equally wrong for a child to be beating up on his parents/siblings/pets?


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