# If you don't EC...



## BarefootScientist

Why not? I'm almost scared to post this, but I am so insanely curious, I just neeeed to know.









I am honestly not trying to start a debate or any kind of war here, I am just curious what reasons you have for not ECing. I have heard these reasons: too time-consuming/difficult (particularly if you have more than one kid), or you tried and it just didn't work for you because of your kid's personality or particular needs, obviously if you didn't hear about it in time...what else?


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## 2lilsweetfoxes

Too many distractions. I don't have time/energy to focus 100% on the baby. I have 2 other children, one is autistic (and I'm still trying to get him to deign to poop in the potty instead of his underwear. at least he only does so at home when I can easily clean him up.) And Warcraft. I don't want to give it up, although I've seriously cut back from the 5-6 day a week 5-6 hours per day after work raiding schedule. Besides, I can't get my DH (who is the SAHP) to use cloth. He'd die laughing at the idea of EC. And I still have to ensure the meals are made, laundry done, and house picked up and decent.


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## Bokonon

I don't have the time, energy or desire for it. I'd rather enjoy my baby without constantly watching her for potty cues, and have my family spend time with her and play with her than whisk her away during special moments between she and my son.

I commend those who have the patience and determination for it - it's just not for me.


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## Mama~Love

I don't have the time or energy for it either. Sure, it's great if you only have the baby to look after, but with more than one (6 for me!), I think it would be very hard to do.

And the thought of pee in the sink, poo on everything is very gross to me. I don't think ECing makes one a better parent, and hate the insinuation that EC'ers are superior for some reason.


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## cristeen

The only reason I'm not doing it is because I cannot for the life of me figure out my LO's cues. Hopefully as he gets bigger I'll be able to find a pattern.


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## octobermom

I have a few reasons...
1) My own childhood while I now realize the experience I had with "infant potty training" was vastly diffrent from the Ec promoted here I still have horrible memories. I PT pretty early before I was 18 months and I was jsut ready and I grew up where it was common to start sitting itty bitty ones on the potties at very young ages.. However I was also born with an incomptant bladder one that actually required several surguries and such so while I managed to day train well I didn't for sleeping for a LOOOOONNNNG time naps nights didn't matter when my body checked out my connection to my bladder did as well. Yet this was also a time where it was assumed only the stubborn or those that required drastic measures wet past say a year... So I spent years being punished forced to go with out any liquids for obscene amounts of time ridiculed etc for wetting and this countinued till my Jr High years where my body finially caught up. The absoulte feeling of zero controll didn't matter if it was a kinda trying to help me phase or a super punitive one I just didn't have the controll made me despise anything "EC" as an adult.

2) I too had the sensory delayed child once I learned that my parents version of EC and the rest of the world was quite diffrent I did although loosly do Ec with my DD but it was quickly obvious it was jsut ttoally making me on edge that she was making zero connections and it frustrated DH.. Then we were dealing with other medical issues DH loosing his job bankrupucy and honestly life and EC jsut didn't mix anymore.

3) the compromise. I stopped trying to guess my childs patterns I became annoyingly upsessed with it and stopping parenting to dwel over her pee and poo signs







So I stopped but we alos became the family that used simple cotton diapers with no covers so we could change right away we also became the parents of a very late trainer and I honestly don't think that would have changed had we stuck with EC I do see where I would have figured I failed her and thats not healthy. Insead we were able to stay calm remember all kids learn at diffrent rates and even use some EC knowlegment to ehlp her become successful when she was ready.
I am comfortable with the choice we made and will approach our next in the same way.

Deanna


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## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama~Love* 
I don't think ECing makes one a better parent, and hate the insinuation that EC'ers are superior for some reason.

I don't think I made that insinuation...did I?

Ok, mess factor. Personal aversion. Great reasons, keep 'em coming.


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## Katie T

I have never tried it and until I had my second I didn't even know it existed







Then DD came along 21 months later and I had too much on my plate and it never really was of interest to me. I have been lucky bith of my dc have pl on there own my there second birthday. I also think a baby is a baby for such a short time why speed it up? I love diapering my babies and am always sad when they self train.


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## ElaynesMom

I didn't EC because I think I would have just given up anyways. After having my dd I was extremely stressed and had PPD and anything that made life even remotely more difficult just wouldn't have lasted. If she had peed/pooped on me, her clothes, the furniture I would have broke down and just put diapers on her. We don't even use cloth diapers, we use disposables. I think EC and cloth diapering are great, and I admire moms who can do it but disposable diapers really saved me. Some days it was all I could do to just get up and nurse my baby.


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## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katie T* 
I also think a baby is a baby for such a short time why speed it up? I love diapering my babies and am always sad when they self train.









As I said, my purpose here is not to debate but I did want to point out that I don't think of it that way at all. To me this is like saying, a baby is a baby for a short time, so why rush them out of their crib and into a regular bed? It makes perfect sense and I totally agree - _if_ you accept that babies sleep in cribs to begin with, yk? When you cosleep, your baby sleeps in a regular bed, but it's not because you're rushing them out of the crib. In the same way, when you EC, your baby is "using the potty" but it's not because you're rushing them "out of diapers." To be honest, I can't really wrap my head around enjoying changing diapers to the point where you're sad when your child self-trains but since you do enjoy them that much, I think that's a valid reason to add to the list.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *ElaynesMom* 
I didn't EC because I think I would have just given up anyways. After having my dd I was extremely stressed and had PPD and anything that made life even remotely more difficult just wouldn't have lasted. If she had peed/pooped on me, her clothes, the furniture I would have broke down and just put diapers on her. We don't even use cloth diapers, we use disposables. I think EC and cloth diapering are great, and I admire moms who can do it but disposable diapers really saved me. Some days it was all I could do to just get up and nurse my baby.


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## Carhootel

I EC very part time and the reason I don't do it more is probably an issue of me being lazy. Not that it's bad not to ec, I really don't think people that do or don't are "superior" in either direction. Tt's actually something I'm interested in doing more ec, but my ds wakes up at about 5am and poops for about a half hour or so, ususally falling back to sleep some, and then we get up at 7am and change him. It doesn't upset him and waking up to potty him during that time would really disrupt me and dh. Maybe there's another way to do it but the part time ec we do works for us. DS also plays a lot on the floor independently and it's nice to be able to sit on the couch and watch him play and not look for cues that aren't very obvious (cause he's very distracted while playing)

By part time ec I mean that we try to offer him a potty-tunity after meals and before naps on the bblp. That doesn't even happen all the time though....

I think this is a really interesting thread so thanks to the OP for starting it!


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## Drummer's Wife

I'm too lazy!







really.

also, I don't mind diapers (for the most part) so I'm not in a rush to have independently toileting little ones.

Basically, while the concept is interesting to me, I have zero interest in doing it with my own children.

ETA: oh, and cute cloth diapered bums!


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## Mama~Love

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist* 
I don't think I made that insinuation...did I?

Ok, mess factor. Personal aversion. Great reasons, keep 'em coming.

Maybe I read the post wrong...?

Quote:

_quote removed by moderator_
Why would I care what the misconceptions are, if I'd never EC anyway??


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## MamaMelis

My most compelling personal reason is that I have never seen anyone be truly successful with it in our culture (I live in the US). I have seen lots of people get all gung ho with it with a newborn, and then completely fall away from it when the reality of it starts in (i.e a mobile baby, or solids, or life in general). Therefore I have seen no compelling evidence that it makes life better in any way, and have in fact seen it lead to feelings of failure in parents who undertake it and then give up.

I just have way too many things that I enjoy doing that are not EC compatible, nor would any caregivers that I know of participate in EC'ing my child (I'm a SAHM, but I mean babysitters, grandparents, or childcare at my gym etc).

I use cloth diapers and am thrilled with that decision for our family. By letting my DS do his own thing he PL'd in a day with no work on our part and relatively early. That works for me, and was 100% stress free.


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## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama~Love* 
Maybe I read the post wrong...?

Um...sorry I'm confused. So are you saying I did insinuate people who EC are better? Which part of my OP?


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## Blueone

I don't because I'm fine with diapers. He's a baby and he'll let me know when he's ready for potty time. I think it would be better too because then he'll understand how to take off his own clothes and understand his body instead of looking at me for cues and me having to teach him his cues.

I think the concept is interesting, but just not for me.


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## AKislandgirl

Brr...







I think I dress DD in too many layers to make it work! lol I live in Alaska and don't keep a hot house. When we are out an about especially these days DD is often in a snow suit. I don't think that we would be quick enough at undressing her to get her to a potty.

Plus, I too love our cloth diapers. They are cute and really no trouble at all. On some level I'm interested in EC... maybe more curious but I don't really see it working for us.


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## clicksab

I have no desire to, no energy to, and I know it just won't fit into my lifestyle. I know a few women IRL that do EC and while it interests me, seeing them do it just kind of confirms that it's not for our family.


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## Sheryl1678

My personal theory (and that is all it is) is that EC is a lot like breastfeeding. With accurate information and adequate support, _many_ more parents would do it.


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## mntnmom

I love the concept. I know it' basically what MANY moms in "less developed" parts of the world do today. But I think I am too distracted by my older kids and the pace of modern life to do it justice. I plan on reading up a little more on it for this babe(expected in Mar.) But with other demands, not to mention frequent moves, I'm not really optimistic.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama~Love* 
Maybe I read the post wrong...?

Why would I care what the misconceptions are, if I'd never EC anyway??

well, because perhaps if you were informed of the *reality* of EC rather than all the misconceptions, you might change your mind.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheryl1678* 
My personal theory (and that is all it is) is that EC is a lot like breastfeeding. With accurate information and adequate support, _many_ more parents would do it.

















this is it exactly. how many times have you heard these same exact comments about BF'ing? too hard, too time consuming, can never leave the baby with someone else, it's just not for me, doesn't fit in with my lifestyle, what would i do when i'm out of the house, i have other kids to worry about and don't have time... as Sheryl so eloquently put it, with the right information and support, lots more people would do it.


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## HappyFox05

I read a ton about it before DD was born but didn't do it because I knew nothing about babies, had never been around children, and figured I'd be totally overwhelmed & didn't want to add to the stress. So, EC got tossed. She did, however, get a lot of free bum time when she was tiny, and still does. The more I think about it though, the more I don't like the idea of training someone to do something one way (use your diaper) and then changing on them a couple of years later. I'm gonna try a little more EC with DD2, hoping DD1 will get into helping & using the potty more. But I'm not gonna stress if we end up diapering more in the end.


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## Mama~Love

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
well, because perhaps if you were informed of the *reality* of EC rather than all the misconceptions, you might change your mind.








this is it exactly. how many times have you heard these same exact comments about BF'ing? too hard, too time consuming, can never leave the baby with someone else, it's just not for me, doesn't fit in with my lifestyle, what would i do when i'm out of the house, i have other kids to worry about and don't have time... as Sheryl so eloquently put it, with the right information and support, lots more people would do it.

I don't think I would. I have the diaper free baby book, and have read it, but I still don't see how it's not messy & time consuming. It's not for everybody, and it doesn't make anyone a better mother for doing it.


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## Patrick's mummy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
well, because perhaps if you were informed of the *reality* of EC rather than all the misconceptions, you might change your mind.








this is it exactly. how many times have you heard these same exact comments about BF'ing? too hard, too time consuming, can never leave the baby with someone else, it's just not for me, doesn't fit in with my lifestyle, what would i do when i'm out of the house, i have other kids to worry about and don't have time... as Sheryl so eloquently put it, with the right information and support, lots more people would do it.

I have read about EC but I don't want to do it. I don't feel that EC has huge benefits, unlike breastfeeding. I think it is analogous to BFing in the sense that if a person does not see the point, no amount of information or support is going to alter their decision. But on a personal level, I totally see the point of BFing and therefore do it, but I don't see so many benefits to EC. This is not to say I have a problem with it, I think it's great if others enjoy it







, I just don't have any motivation to do it myself. Nothing to do with perceptions that it could be messy or time consuming, I just don't feel the need or see how it could improve family life. And yes, I've read the books! I guess it just doesn't speak to me.


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## Michigan Mama

I'm a part-time EC'er. I catch as many pees/poos as I can, and let our cloth dipes catch the rest. When I don't catch, it's usually because I'm in the middle of cooking dinner, my 2 yo needs something, etc. I'm very laid back about it, and that is the only way it works for us. I can tell my little guy even feels sort of happy and proud when he's going in the potty, so it's nice to have that connection. So I do it when I can, and when I can't, it's ok. I also WOH 2 mornings a week, so my kids use sposies for the sitter usually.

It can be challenging to take the time to catch those cues and respond to them when the baby needs it. Because most of us moms are alone in our EC'ing endevours, there are moments when it can just be too much with all of the other things we are balancing.

For families who can do it full time, that's cool. Part-time works for us.


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## Mama~Love

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Patrick's mummy* 
I have read about EC but I don't want to do it. I don't feel that EC has huge benefits, unlike breastfeeding. I think it is analogous to BFing in the sense that if a person does not see the point, no amount of information or support is going to alter their decision. But on a personal level, I totally see the point of BFing and therefore do it, but I don't see so many benefits to EC. This is not to say I have a problem with it, I think it's great if others enjoy it







, I just don't have any motivation to do it myself. Nothing to do with perceptions that it could be messy or time consuming, I just don't feel the need or see how it could improve family life. And yes, I've read the books! I guess it just doesn't speak to me.


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## lizzylou

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheryl1678* 
My personal theory (and that is all it is) is that EC is a lot like breastfeeding. With accurate information and adequate support, _many_ more parents would do it.









I don't see how this is a fair comparision. Breastfeeding has innumerable benefits - is there really any long term benefit to ECing? Does it make baby healthier, smarter? Does it provide a connection to mom?

Maybe I am missing something, but I've never really understood the benefits of ECing. Honestly it seems kinda gimmicky to me... along the lines of "teach your baby to read." So that's why I don't do it - my baby will learn to use the potty soon enough, and I don't really want to bother with it.


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## fruitfulmomma

I use the method in Diaper Free Before Three, which suggests starting at around 6 months when the baby is more able to sit up on the potty. I probably have made my own modifications to it, since I read it three babies ago.

The reasons I have been hesitant to start them off as newborns is 1) I am really very tired after giving birth and 2)I do have some very busy days where I just don't have time to watch diligently enough for their cues. I feel like I would frustrate them if I was only able to follow it on some days and not others.

I do however try to give them naked time to allow them to pee without the diaper on because I know from watching all my newborns that they really prefer it that way.

Right now my 11 month old is going potty every morning when she wakes up and about half of those times she has stayed dry overnight. Throughout the day we try to take her to the potty and give her the opportunity to go so that she learns that is the place to do it.


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## MamaMelis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizzylou* 
I don't see how this is a fair comparision. Breastfeeding has innumerable benefits - is there really any long term benefit to ECing? Does it make baby healthier, smarter? Does it provide a connection to mom?

Maybe I am missing something, but I've never really understood the benefits of ECing. Honestly it seems kinda gimmicky to me... along the lines of "teach your baby to read." So that's why I don't do it - my baby will learn to use the potty soon enough, and I don't really want to bother with it.

I so completely agree. The idea that people who don't EC are simply uninformed or uneducated is rather arrogant, IMO. The ability to be educated on options and make different choices DOES exist you know









I don't believe that the long term benefits to Mama and Baby from breast feeding are in any way analogous to EC'ing.


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## Juliacat

Even when I had only one child, I was unable to focus on her enough to read her cues.

I'm grossed out by pee/poop going anywhere other than a diaper or the toilet.

Diapers make dressing them easier, especially in cold weather.

I agree with some of the above posters that while EC and breastfeeding both require a good education, and if you lined up a bunch of 18-year-olds you would not be able to tell whether or not they were EC'd or breastfed as babies--but I still think breastfeeding has clear benefits for the baby's health, and I'm not so sure EC does. I do understand, though, that if EC is working really well for you, you want to share the joy with other people--I feel the same way about cloth diapers and everyone thinks I'm nuts, so I sympathize.


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## jessjgh1

Wow interesting conversation.
Gee, I guess I see a LOT of breastfeeding analogies (it's a lost art, learn it by seing other do it, benefits of bonding, it is the 'norm' etc,). And I see that the benefits are something that needs to be better articulated. However, I feel like if we say that ec promotes bonding, people just roll their eyes at that... and if we say that it is the biological norm, then people feel like we are judgemental or guilting them to do something that is hard to do when it is no longer the societal norms....

If I grew up with ec'ing around me, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't need to 'think' about it so much- I would just embrace it as normal. And I do think it is the biological norm for babies. They have the abilility and it IS lost if their caretakers do not assist them. That is part of the reason *I* find it so compelling...

I do think there are benefits of EC'ing. They may be just short-time benefits, which I don't necessarily means that they are not less worthwhile. There are environmental benefits, and convenience (who wouldn't like to not have to clean up poop or to have a child being potty independent early?) There likely are some long term benefits, too. I just don't think we can say we know, I'm not sure there is much research done. I do remember talking to someone who thought it would be interesting to see if ec'ing made a difference-- she worked with a few older children who were autistic and were unable to be potty trained. I think she was working on using sign language for these children and she was thinking that maybe ec'ing using signals (sign language) would help a child like the ones she worked with, if it had been done early on.

I don't really consider EC'ing to be gimicky- although I do think that can be the way the media interprets it... which I don't think is the intention of any of the people that are interested in promoting ec. I know I've seen some reports in the media in the news that have been wonderful and other articles that are not... And most make me feel overwhelmed, because I've always been pretty laid back about ec'ing.

I don't think that ec'ing is right for everyone... but I also don't think it has to be as hard or complicated/intensive as people make it out to be. And I'm probably the least 'intuitive' signal catching person there is. I broke every ec rule there is (not there are really rules) and made up my own, and I survived(-; we even had fun, and hardly ever got peed on in the process.
Ok, I'd probably say more, but have 2 little ones to play with now.
Jessica


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## Drummer's Wife

wow, I don't get the breastfeeding comparason at all!

and I DO know how EC works, and the benefits, etc... (I wrote an article on it a couple years ago, and did a decent amount of research to do so).

I get that it's not as difficult as maybe some people assume it is, or as messy, but really is there honest to goodness a life long impact if you EC from birth to age 2 like there is with breastfeeding?

The bonding, reading your baby's cues, the whole communication aspect of it - yeah, I get that that could benefit both infant and parent for years to come, but I don't see how choosing to use diapers is by any means detrimental - such as formula feeding is.


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## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
The bonding, reading your baby's cues, the whole communication aspect of it - yeah, I get that that could benefit both infant and parent for years to come, but I don't see how choosing to use diapers is by any means detrimental - such as formula feeding is.

I think for me it is about respecting what is natural. Maybe there is no life long benefit, but it can't be pleasant to have to pee and poop on your own body when it goes against your instinct.
I guess I see it similar to ignoring. I wouldn't let my child cio, why would I ignore when they have to go to the bathroom?
My son was a screamer when ever he was wet. I do think I'm more sensitive to this because it really upset him to be wet.

Jessica


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## Juliacat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
I thought the progression of modern culture was such that we don't NEED to allow infants to poo and pee wherever, until we (or they) get the hang of cues and whatnot. Just because it's DONE in underprivledged areas doesn't mean we need to replicate it.

I don't feel strongly either way about EC, but this is my point of view on a lot of other topics. I used to think that natural was ALWAYS better, and becoming a mother made me do a 180 (okay, a 90







) degree turn on that perspective.


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## BarefootScientist

This is fascinating. I'm seeing a ton of reasons. Some I can understand and some make no sense to me. Some could be corrected by more info, but most are valid and are very personal reasons. That is what I was looking for.

And I will just state one more time for those that missed it, I did not come here to evangelize. I did not come here to convince. I did not mean to insinuate that ECers are better mothers (and I still don't think I did). I came here to see what the opinions of EC are and the reasons are for not doing it, among those who have heard of it and yet don't practice it.

So, continue.


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## Blueone

Uh yeah, I don't see the breastfeeding comparison to EC either. I think it's great that some people do it, I'm glad it works for them. But it's just not for everyone.

That said, those who choose not to do it are not ignorant. We are all entitled to our choices and just because we choose one way over the other doesn't mean we're ignorant or uninformed.


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## Talula Fairie

To be perfectly honest, the whole concept seems ridiculous to me. And it squicks me out a little bit.

Also, on a practical level, as others have mentioned, I really don't have the time. I mean, this baby pees every 10 minutes! We go through about 24+ cloth diapers PER DAY. I can't even imagine how much time I'd have to spend holding her over a potty seat to catch all her pees!

And the comparison to breastfeeding I find completely offensive.


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## freestylemama

I don't for lots of reasons. The biggest one is that I think it's gross.







I have a friend who did it and her baby peed everywhere. I remember being at a cafe and her crawler was just peeing. She was super cavalier about it and it was a major turn off to EC. Even if your "catch" rate is 90%, you're still having to clean up 10% of messes.

Another friend who ECed was like way over obsessed with her kids' potty time and bragged about EC and early potty learning and it was also a turnoff. She carried a potty around with her everywhere and childless me at the time me thought it was really gross.

I didn't want to deal with messes, didn't want that kind of pressure, and I also think cloth diapers are adorable.


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## chrissy

No time, no interest here.


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## savithny

Both my babies were not babies by the time I heard about EC. But if I had another baby, I feel no desire to even attempt EC.

There's a huge difference between EC and BF. We are mammals. All mammals feed their babies milk from mother's bodies. Our breasts evolved for that purpose, and without it, in a "natural" state, our babies would die.

On the other hand, as any reader of "Everyone Poops" will know, mammals have widely varying methods of dealing with feces. Some of them do it in special places and bury it. Some of them do it wherever, whenever.

Among human cultures, EC may be widespread but it is not the only way to deal with the issue in the same way that BF is the ONLY way to feed an infant. Some cultures swaddled their infants and changed out the moss stuffed between their legs once a day. Some cultures "clicker trained" their tiny babies to pee and poop on command. Most do something somewhere in between.

But humans have been wearing clothes for tens of thousands of years (go look for the data on the evolution of body lice and their divergence from headlice for some fascinating theories on that). We've been living in places too cold for babies to go naked for longer than that. I firmly believe that some form of diapering is just as "natural" as EC is.

EC is a current "This is the MOST natural" fad, the way paleo eating or traditional foods is the current "Right way to do NATURAL" in the diet arena. IT doesn't mean it is the only natural, or even the truly most natural way to deal with the issue of teaching a baby human being how the other human beings in the tribe practice the elimination of bodily wastes.

The modern world in which most of us are living puts additional barriers in the way of practicing EC. IT's why diapering becomes more common as people move into a more modern urbanized lifestyle. Since a large percentage of child abuse cases have pottying or wetting/soiling accidents as their triggers, the LAST thing that a stressed out new parent needs is yet another feces-related thing they HAVE TO GET EXACTLY RIGHT to prove their parenting worth.

SO if you want to try it and it works for you, that's great! Have fun! Just don't come at me trying to prove (as some have) that diapers are abusive, that diapering parents are ignoring their childs basic human needs, or that EC parents are somehow tighter bonded to their children than diapering parents.

As someone with an infant who did not signal (and his sitter, who came from an EC culture, agreed he did not signal) and pooped once a week from the time he was 4 months old until after he was one, I believe EC would have been frustrating and confusing to us both. It is not a cure-all, not every child responds to it in the same way, and it isn't a magic answer to the question of "how long will I have to be cleaning baby poop up? Either way, you're going to be wiping butts and cleaning up poop -- either from your sink, or from the floor, or from a diaper.


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## Sk8ermaiden

I don't mind diapers. In fact, I have a serious love of cloth.

We are out and about every day. I like to spend a LOT of time on the go. I don't see this being very compatible with full (or most) time EC, and when we are home, I am sleeping, cooking, doing laundry or cleaning. Usually when doing these things, the baby is either being worn (on my back) or hangin' in the pack n play, leaving virtually no time for part time EC.

I know it doesn't have to take over your life - I have a friend who offers her baby the potty before and after naps and before and after feedings, and she catches a lot and she is thrilled. I think that's cool! But I have no desire to exert that amount of effort.

I breastfeed, even though I hate every single minute of it and can only do it with gritted teeth. I do it because the benefits to my baby are too long to even list. I am not going to expend that kind of energy to do something else I would hate when I could just NOT, with no long-term ramifications for my baby. My mom says I potty trained in less than a week, with almost no effort from her. That sounds way more like my kind of deal.

And on a shallow note, the number of times I have seen a mom post about "missing" a cue while wearing the baby? That is a level of grossness I am not willing to accept. It makes me gag just thinking about it.

I think everyone has their hill to die on, and you have to work as a person not to be sanctimonious about it. Mine are birth and babywearing, and I try very hard to understand and accept others' points of view (which is what I think the OP is doing).


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## Limabean1975

I understand so many of the reasons to NOT do EC - I had many of those thoughts about it some years ago and did not do it with my first. But the one I don't get is the idea of it grossing you out...???? How is it gross to have your baby pee or poo in a potty or toilet instead of it - poo especially - being mushed all over their bum and genitals and being so, so much harder to clean up that the quick wipe post-potty results in?


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## Sk8ermaiden

It takes me no longer to wipe my baby during diaper changes than it does to wipe myself. It certainly is not so, so hard to clean up.


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## Talula Fairie

I think the accidents are gross.

I thought potty training was gross too.


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## Limabean1975

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
It takes me no longer to wipe my baby during diaper changes than it does to wipe myself. It certainly is not so, so hard to clean up.

I didn't say "so, so hard to clean up" but rather "so, so much harder to clean up" - comparing poopy bum-wiping post-potty to post-diaper.









I just realized what you are all saying about misses being gross- does not apply in my house - baby wears diaper for back-up for sure! Prefold with a belt at home; disposables when out. I go through 2 disposables a day, most days, and maybe 5 or 6 prefolds.


----------



## Talula Fairie

Well I guess that wouldn't be as bad.

I was just thinking of the accidents my kids had when they were being potty trained. I swear nothing is grosser than a big pile of poop on your floor. *shudder*

I have a bleach/water solution kept in a spray bottle for a reason.


----------



## MamaMelis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
I understand so many of the reasons to NOT do EC - I had many of those thoughts about it some years ago and did not do it with my first. But the one I don't get is the idea of it grossing you out...???? How is it gross to have your baby pee or poo in a potty or toilet instead of it - poo especially - being mushed all over their bum and genitals and being so, so much harder to clean up that the quick wipe post-potty results in?

I'm venturing a guess that (since I am assuming WE all poop or pee in a toilet, a majority of the time, anyway) that it is not the act of a baby defecating in a _toilet_ that is disgusting or not attractive, but the idea of one doing it all over me, or my floor, or their clothes, or their sling, or their highchair, or their carseat, or their whatever you choose that is rather.......off putting.....to some.

And while I can see how EC'ing a newborn or even an exclusively breast fed baby may be relatively easy or relatively non offensive to ones sensibilities when a "miss" occurs, I do not feel the same way about a mobile baby or one who is eating solids.


----------



## Limabean1975

It is my impression that most ECers use diaper back up..babies aren't pooping and peeing all over the house. And it's not at ALL about letting them eliminate whereever they may be, my goodness, that WOULD be gross! It's about letting them eliminate in an appropriate receptacle, when possible.


----------



## savithny

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
I didn't say "so, so hard to clean up" but rather "so, so much harder to clean up" - comparing poopy bum-wiping post-potty to post-diaper.









I just realized what you are all saying about misses being gross- does not apply in my house - baby wears diaper for back-up for sure! Prefold with a belt at home; disposables when out. I go through 2 disposables a day, most days, and maybe 5 or 6 prefolds.

See, at that rate you're going through the same number of diapers I did with my baby. My first, especially, only went a few times a day.

I have read plenty of EC stories from people who don't use backup at home, and whose days seem to include cleaning 2-3-4 "misses" off the floors, rugs, and furniture. A diaper change seems preferable to me over trying to get a pasty toddler poop out of the braided wool rug.


----------



## Sk8ermaiden

I also agree that back up would seem the obvious choice, but that does not explain the number of posts I've seen about baby pooping in the Moby wrap.

And I agree - I go through 2 disposables and 6 CDs a day most days.

I do have a question though. My baby, for the first 2 months, peed all the time, but pooped when eating. Not before, not after, DURING. How on earth would you work EC with that?


----------



## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
It is my impression that most ECers use diaper back up..babies aren't pooping and peeing all over the house. And it's not at ALL about letting them eliminate whereever they may be, my goodness, that WOULD be gross! It's about letting them eliminate in an appropriate receptacle, when possible.

Yeah, that. Some ec'ers choose to have a lot of nakey time, or not use diapers at all, others (like me) went through a lot of diapers(-;
BTW, I've read the Inuit culture relies on EC - despite the frigid temperature. Actually makes sense because using water to clean off a soiled child would be extremely chilly. Ecing (given the right clothing) makes a lot more sense in such extreme temps.
Jessica


----------



## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
I do have a question though. My baby, for the first 2 months, peed all the time, but pooped when eating. Not before, not after, DURING. How on earth would you work EC with that?

Some people would just nurse dc with a prefold on their laps, to catch the mess. My dd would wait till she was done nursing. Many seem to pause from nursing, and if you have a little pot there it really just takes a second (with practice) to have them eliminate over a small bowl or little potty. And I'm sure some people would just nurse them with the dc over the bowl if it seemed to always happen... but I'd also say that if you KNEW this was going to happen (edited to say: as in, it often happened) you would try to potty the child before nursing or offer a potty when you switch sides (if you do that) and associated it with a signal so that it might 'cue' them to go at a more convenient time.

I KNOW it (maybe) sounds crazy and maybe hard, but it really isn't as hard as it perhaps seems.

And honestly, if you break down all the 'cues' and tips and tricks of breastfeeding, it might sounds just as 'hard' or difficult as ec. Before I nursed I never thought I'd be nursing a baby SOOOO often, or having my breasts available 24/7 at a seconds notice, or all the crazy positioning things I had to try for months before it became second nature etc.

Jessica


----------



## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaMelis* 
And while I can see how EC'ing a newborn or even an exclusively breast fed baby may be relatively easy or relatively non offensive to ones sensibilities when a "miss" occurs, I do not feel the same way about a mobile baby or one who is eating solids.

Actually, newborn poop (imo) is a lot more likely to be a big mess if you miss.
Toddler poop really isnt very offensive if it does not get squished... really.
I do think the ettiquette around ec is an issue and I tended to be on the cautious side... I bet there are many people that didn't even know I ec'ed even if I was 'doing' it right under their nose, so to speak.

I didn't want to be a pest and keep replying, but just wanted to answer a few questions that seemed to be put out there...
Jessica


----------



## stiss

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
I understand so many of the reasons to NOT do EC - I had many of those thoughts about it some years ago and did not do it with my first. But the one I don't get is the idea of it grossing you out...???? How is it gross to have your baby pee or poo in a potty or toilet instead of it - poo especially - being mushed all over their bum and genitals and being so, so much harder to clean up that the quick wipe post-potty results in?

Agreed. It did take alot of work, but I'm so thankful I don't have to wipe smushed poop off my kid's butt, nor worry about diapers when we go out. It totally fits into our AP philosophy, too.







I'm actually kind of surprised at how many people are more mainstream in the pooping department!


----------



## Sk8ermaiden

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
Some people would just nurse dc with a prefold on their laps, to catch the mess. My dd would wait till she was done nursing. Many seem to pause from nursing, and if you have a little pot there it really just takes a second (with practice) to have them eliminate over a small bowl or little potty. And I'm sure some people would just nurse them with the dc over the bowl if it seemed to always happen... but I'd also say that if you KNEW this was going to happen (edited to say: as in, it often happened) you would try to potty the child before nursing or offer a potty when you switch sides (if you do that) and associated it with a signal so that it might 'cue' them to go at a more convenient time.

I KNOW it (maybe) sounds crazy and maybe hard, but it really isn't as hard as it perhaps seems.
*
And honestly, if you break down all the 'cues' and tips and tricks of breastfeeding, it might sounds just as 'hard' or difficult as ec.* Before I nursed I never thought I'd be nursing a baby SOOOO often, or having my breasts available 24/7 at a seconds notice, or all the crazy positioning things I had to try for months before it became second nature etc.

Jessica

Thank you, that does make sense, and I appreciate the answer.

It also further drives home that for me personally, EC is something I would never want to do. 1) The grossness of dealing with bodily fluids, in the living room, while feeding her. And then having to wipe her, and then wash your hands, and then, lucky me, I get to endure the agonizing pain of latch all over again!

But it IS hard. Really, really hard, and time consuming. The kind of thing that I would rather not have to do. But it has such benefits I just could not NOT do it.

I really do get EC. I understand the closeness of paying attention to your baby's cues, and the fact that your baby doesn't have to sit in mess. But it just seems like such an ordeal (and the more people on this thread try to explain that it isn't, the more of one it actually sounds like). My poor baby will just have to live with being changed as soon as she's wet/dirty.


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## Limabean1975

I'm amazed to hear of babies who only pee 5 or 6 times a day - WOW! Any baby I've known has peed way more than that- but I have not been *that* intimate with very many babies. The 5 or 6 prefolds I go through in a day have one pee each in them - I probably catch another 8-12 pees, maybe more? Sounds like those 5-6 pee a day babies are holding it a long time! Or maybe my kids are just frequent pee-ers - I do remember changing DS's diaper much more often than his peers, and not because I was super-vigilant about it, but because they were soaked.


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## Proudmom2Teeg

I tried EC when my son was four months. I never was never successful and stopped after awhile. I was discouraged thinking there was no way I could do this. Since then I have on and off tried by just allowing my son to be diaper free around the house...Yes ALOT of messes happened. My son is now 7 1/2 months and just yesterday it seems to be working for us both. I only missed two pees today....







I am hoping I continue..My husband thinks I am crazy and hates when he pees everywhere haha...


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## Sk8ermaiden

Mine went through a dozen diapers a day when she was a newborn, but now she goes through roughly 6 a day with one pee each (and the nighttime sposies catch whatever they catch). Mine is a SUPERSOAKER though. She can flood a disposable and have it running down her legs. SO maybe she does hold it!


----------



## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizzylou* 
Maybe I am missing something, but I've never really understood the benefits of ECing. Honestly it seems kinda gimmicky to me... along the lines of "teach your baby to read." So that's why I don't do it - my baby will learn to use the potty soon enough, and I don't really want to bother with it.

This. I think it's totally gimmicky. It's a modern day "noble savage" myth, and that has always squicked me out (I wrote my thesis partly on the history of noble savage mythology in American popular culture). I don't believe for a second that anyone in rural China or wherever it is that EC is supposed to be emulating wouldn't jump at the chance to use disposable diapers, if it were offered.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Honestly? I thought the progression of modern culture was such that we don't NEED to allow infants to poo and pee wherever, until we (or they) get the hang of cues and whatnot. Just because it's DONE in underprivledged areas doesn't mean we need to replicate it. JIMHO, there's something to be said for the benefits of increased sanitation and modern human waste disposal expectations. But that's just me.









And this. "Traditional" ECing involved a whole lot of babies still lying in their own waste. Just in the dirt surrounded by flies, not in a diaper that can easily be cleaned.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
To be perfectly honest, the whole concept seems ridiculous to me.

And the comparison to breastfeeding I find completely offensive.

This and this, too.

You're welcome to it, but everything I've read about it makes me either giggle or roll my eyes. Basically I find it a rather silly romanticizing of a past that never really existed. Call me ignorant or uneducated all you want, and I'll have to beg to disagree... but I'm good with diapers, thanks.


----------



## mambera

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
I'm too lazy!







really.

also, I don't mind diapers (for the most part) so I'm not in a rush to have independently toileting little ones.

Basically, while the concept is interesting to me, I have zero interest in doing it with my own children.

ETA: oh, and cute cloth diapered bums!



















All of those, with 'lazy' being the biggest one. Plus I agree with the poster who didn't want to interrupt other fun activities for potty trips.

Also I WOH and my MIL, who is our daytime caretaker, won't even use CDs (I buy sposies just for her), never mind EC. And when I am home I want to enjoy my kid, not be running her to the toilet every minute.

Quote:

My son was a screamer when ever he was wet. I do think I'm more sensitive to this because it really upset him to be wet.
And yeah, my kid would never let me know she was wet or dirty - I just change her every 2 hours, or when she smells. She hates having her diaper changed but absolutely does not mind sitting in a wet one.

Nevertheless I agree that sitting in a dirty diaper is a nasty idea, so I give her lots of diaper free time (she plays on a change pad over a big waterproof sheet on the living room floor) and I change her frequently.

I definitely do not see any specific benefit of EC for the child in the long term. And in the short term, if the child could always go diaperless, sure you'd be less likely to get a rash - but from what I can see you have to use diaper backup anyway, or the kid sits in a mess in the Moby - which is way way worse than sitting in a mess in a plush absorbent diaper with a stay-dry inner.







.

I don't see an environmental benefit of flushing over cloth diapers either, plus you either have to use backup diapers or wash lots of messes off your clothing, floor, and furniture all the time.

So I guess I see it as a personal choice of whether you'd rather have diaper-hassle or EC hassle. I prefer the diaper hassle.


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## Aubergine68

I see this thread is back, but I'm editing my posts out because I'm no longer interested in participating in this conversation


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## Ammaarah

We have cream-colored carpet.


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## thefreckledmama

While I understand and appreciate the philosophy being ECing, it's just not one that works within our family.


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## freestylemama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
I understand so many of the reasons to NOT do EC - I had many of those thoughts about it some years ago and did not do it with my first. But the one I don't get is the idea of it grossing you out...???? How is it gross to have your baby pee or poo in a potty or toilet instead of it - poo especially - being mushed all over their bum and genitals and being so, so much harder to clean up that the quick wipe post-potty results in?

It's awesome when they make it to the potty. It's super gross when they don't. The majority of the ECers I knew had kids who peed everywhere- floors, furniture, etc. That's gross to me.


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## Drummer's Wife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ammaarah* 
We have cream-colored carpet.

same here.


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## BarefootScientist

Wow. I really didn't realize EC was such a fringe idea. It seems like common sense to me. (And by that I do NOT mean, everyone who doesn't EC is ignorant!







)

NOTE: EC does not = diaperless. So let's get back to the topic of why don't you EC? Not why don't you let your kid run around diaperless.







I definitely wouldn't want to be dissing super-cute cloth diapers in the diapering forum







I spent too much money on fluff myself.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I was just thinking of the accidents my kids had when they were being potty trained. I swear nothing is grosser than a big pile of poop on your floor. *shudder*

I have a bleach/water solution kept in a spray bottle for a reason.









I think we all end up with poop on the floor sometimes, no matter what. I've had that. And poop in the shower. Never had poop in the Moby though, or in any other exceedingly disgusting situations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sk8ermaiden* 
I do have a question though. My baby, for the first 2 months, peed all the time, but pooped when eating. Not before, not after, DURING. How on earth would you work EC with that?

I would either take the baby potty before nursing, or just use a diaper to catch the poop while nursing. They grow out of that bit.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
You're welcome to it, but everything I've read about it makes me either giggle or roll my eyes. Basically I find it a rather silly romanticizing of a past that never really existed. Call me ignorant or uneducated all you want, and I'll have to beg to disagree... but I'm good with diapers, thanks.

Ok, I don't think anyone called you ignorant or uneducated.







I'll gladly take the title silly though.







Not that I think EC is silly, just me.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ammaarah* 
We have cream-colored carpet.

Most concise answer yet!


----------



## Pookietooth

Too cold here to go around pantsless, too distracted and too busy.


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## mimi5

As someone who has promoted EC for the past 4 years, and practiced EC for nearly 7 years, I am deeply saddened by some of the comments here. There seems to be some anger and unfair misconceptions, such as that ECers think we are better mothers or that it is just a gimmick. I have long said that I promote EC to let people know what they *could* do, not what they *should* do. Making comments like that not only hurts me because of all the countless hours I've put in as an EC advocate, but it hurts me deeply as a parent.

My background is that I have 6 children. My first 2 were diapered full time and conventionally toilet trained. My 3rd was a late late start ECer, and my youngest 3 have full-time ECed since birth.

I have also breastfed all of them between 1 1/2 and 4 years, and I'm currently nursing my youngest. Infact I have been breastfeeding continuously for the past 10 1/2 years. As a breastfeeding advocate and breastffeding support person it makes me sad to hear that comparing EC and breastfeeding is offensive. I know that many mothers have had their breastfeeding difficulties resolved or helped because of learning some EC techniques (for example popping on and off the breast is a sign of needing to pee or poop and many babies will not settle down to nurse until after they have been pottied). For more on EC and breastfeeding check out this link:

http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....ion=295:14:242

Several people have asked about the benefits of EC. I don't think you can truly understand some of them unless you try EC, but 75 reasons are listed on the DiaperFreeBaby website. Here is the link:

http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....osition=251:14

I don't even know where to start on all the misconceptions. I guess I will just address a few that I can remember. About that idea that you need to watch your baby for cues all day to EC, you don't need to do this anymore than you need to stay home all day to watch for signs of hunger to breastfeed on cue. It is the exact same concept as breastfeeding on cue, and there is nothing offensive about that.

About all mammals nurse their young the same, but handle their eliminations differently, I would suggest reading If My Mom Were A Platypus which descibes how nursing varies amongst mammals.

About the messiness factor, in my experience EC is less messy than both full-time diapering (both cloth and sposies) and conventional toilet training.

I have been thinking a lot lately that I think one of the biggest reasons mothers don't want to try EC is fear of failure. I think there is a misconception that ECing ccaregivers have to catch everything and never use back-up, etc. There is no such thing as perfect EC, not even in indigenous cultures. EC is also not outcome based. The goal of EC is not potty training in the same way that the goal of breastfeeding isn't to wean as quickly as possible. In both instances you meet the need until the child outgrows it, and as long as mother and child desires.

Anyway, I just really want to encourage everyone to check out sites like www.diaperfreebaby.org, www,diaperfreechallenge.org, and www.cleanearthhappybaby.org and read about how EC has impacted parents and babies, or give it a try, before dismissing not only the practice of EC but the experiences of the families practicing it.

Warmly,
Elizabeth


----------



## Aubergine68

edit


----------



## faery

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
I guess I see it similar to ignoring. I wouldn't let my child cio, why would I ignore when they have to go to the bathroom?


----------



## Dar

When my daughter was little, I was all about the parenting decisions that 1. Made her happy and 2. Made my life easier. So breastfeeding, co-sleeping - great. EC? I can't imagine it being easier than diapers, and I really, _really_ dislike pee and poop on the floor or furniture or in the living room or in the sink or on me... and with diapers, that rarely happened. I like it contained in the toilet or a diaper.

I don't see diapers as ignoring my child when she needs to pee - she could pee right there, in the diaper, and it didn't seem to bother her. It made our lives easier, too.

I also think responding to a pee-cue sounds much harder than responding to a hunger-cue. There's no split-second timing involved in hunger-cues - most of the time, if you can't put the babe on the boob for a minute or three it's all good... but it seems to me that not catching a pee-cue for a minute or three would mean cleaning up pee... and that would make my life harder.


----------



## JTA Mom

I don't EC. In the beginning, I didn't even CD. Learning to breastfeed and recover from a c/s with a very colicky baby was enough for me.

I see EC as early 'potty training'. Now, let me explain about potty training from what I know, aka what my mom told me:

We don't potty train until the child ASKS for it. We let them come into the bathroom, watch both momma and daddy pee/poop, etc. If they ask or show interest in sitting on the potty, we let them. There's NO pressure for them to do so, nor is there continued pressure to 'get them on the potty' and 'make something'. We also wait for the readiness signals of being able to take off pants/clothes, holding pees & poops, etc. VERY laid back. I don't feel any pressure to potty train ds anytime soon, and he's 27mos. When he's ready, he's ready.

ECing, to me, feels like potty training. And, frankly, I have other things to do. I'm a very introverted person. Breastfeeding was hard in that ds nursed a lot for comfort, all the time, so I was constantly engaged. He's also very high needs. I just don't have the energy to keep up with one more thing. I've been peed on and pooped on, so those don't matter that much, to me. However, I HATE cleaning up 'accidents'. Which is why I won't force my child until they are ready to go on the potty.

Ami


----------



## savithny

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimi5* 
As someone who has promoted EC for the past 4 years, and practiced EC for nearly 7 years, I am deeply saddened by some of the comments here. There seems to be some anger and unfair misconceptions, such as that ECers think we are better mothers or that it is just a gimmick. I have long said that I promote EC to let people know what they *could* do, not what they *should* do. Making comments like that not only hurts me because of all the countless hours I've put in as an EC advocate, but it hurts me deeply as a parent.

My background is that I have 6 children. My first 2 were diapered full time and conventionally toilet trained. My 3rd was a late late start ECer, and my youngest 3 have full-time ECed since birth.

I have also breastfed all of them between 1 1/2 and 4 years, and I'm currently nursing my youngest. Infact I have been breastfeeding continuously for the past 10 1/2 years. As a breastfeeding advocate and breastffeding support person it makes me sad to hear that comparing EC and breastfeeding is offensive. I know that many mothers have had their breastfeeding difficulties resolved or helped because of learning some EC techniques (for example popping on and off the breast is a sign of needing to pee or poop and many babies will not settle down to nurse until after they have been pottied). For more on EC and breastfeeding check out this link:

http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....ion=295:14:242

Several people have asked about the benefits of EC. I don't think you can truly understand some of them unless you try EC, but 75 reasons are listed on the DiaperFreeBaby website. Here is the link:

http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....osition=251:14

I don't even know where to start on all the misconceptions. I guess I will just address a few that I can remember. About that idea that you need to watch your baby for cues all day to EC, you don't need to do this anymore than you need to stay home all day to watch for signs of hunger to breastfeed on cue. It is the exact same concept as breastfeeding on cue, and there is nothing offensive about that.

About all mammals nurse their young the same, but handle their eliminations differently, I would suggest reading If My Mom Were A Platypus which descibes how nursing varies amongst mammals.

About the messiness factor, in my experience EC is less messy than both full-time diapering (both cloth and sposies) and conventional toilet training.

I have been thinking a lot lately that I think one of the biggest reasons mothers don't want to try EC is fear of failure. I think there is a misconception that ECing ccaregivers have to catch everything and never use back-up, etc. There is no such thing as perfect EC, not even in indigenous cultures. EC is also not outcome based. The goal of EC is not potty training in the same way that the goal of breastfeeding isn't to wean as quickly as possible. In both instances you meet the need until the child outgrows it, and as long as mother and child desires.

Anyway, I just really want to encourage everyone to check out sites like www.diaperfreebaby.org, www,diaperfreechallenge.org, and www.cleanearthhappybaby.org and read about how EC has impacted parents and babies, or give it a try, before dismissing not only the practice of EC but the experiences of the families practicing it.

Warmly,
Elizabeth

Here it is again. No, I am not uninterested in EC because I "fear failure."

Do you not see that statements like that are *exactly* what people are talking about when they say that EC advocates are calling themselves better parents and even better *people*? You basically just called people who don't want to EC scaredycats -- one of the oldest playground fighting words around. That "75 reasons" list you linked to is also full of similar arguments -- the "better bond" and the "If you're REALLY AP you'd WANT to EC" arguments, specifically.

As the one who made the mammals nurse vs. eliminate argument, I did not say all mammals nurse *the same way.* Some mammals nurse constantly. Others nurse once or twice a day. There are countless little variations in how different mammals nurse their young. But nursing, the ACT of nursing, is *required* for life. Pooping in a bowl while you nurse, or being balanced on a potty at the age of 6 weeks is NOT required for life.

I'm sure you know people who found EC to be helpful in their breastfeeding and parenting journeys. I know people who found it made everything more stressful and difficult, exacerbated existing problems in their lives, households, and marriages, and eventually decided its benefits were not worth the stressors. Not every baby makes the same clear, obvious cue. Not every person lives in a house where one of those "misses" is no big deal. Not everyone can arrange their lives to drop everything whenever their baby makes a potty cue.

It is a very individual decision. You've seen a lot of well-presented reasons why a range of people decided it would not work in the totality of their lives. Some people decide it is important enough to make work, other people decide there are other things that take priority within the greater context of their entire family and entire life.


----------



## Mama~Love

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Here it is again. No, I am not uninterested in EC because I "fear failure."

Do you not see that statements like that are *exactly* what people are talking about when they say that EC advocates are calling themselves better parents and even better *people*? You basically just called people who don't want to EC scaredycats -- one of the oldest playground fighting words around. That "75 reasons" list you linked to is also full of similar arguments -- the "better bond" and the "If you're REALLY AP you'd WANT to EC" arguments, specifically.

...Pooping in a bowl while you nurse, or being balanced on a potty at the age of 6 weeks is NOT required for life.

....Not every person lives in a house where one of those "misses" is no big deal. Not everyone can arrange their lives to drop everything whenever their baby makes a potty cue.

It is a very individual decision. You've seen a lot of well-presented reasons why a range of people decided it would not work in the totality of their lives. Some people decide it is important enough to make work, other people decide there are other things that take priority within the greater context of their entire family and entire life.
















ITA with everything here!

From the link: http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....=10&page_num=3

Quote:

*EC is consistent with Attachment Parenting because it*:

14. Encourages the development of a trusting relationship with children through communication about a basic human need.

16. Fosters greater security in a baby: "Mommy and Daddy listen to what I am saying and respond to my needs."

17. Explains why a baby may not sleep through the night: she wakes when she needs to eliminate.
Sounds the EC is the answer to everything







. That makes it sound like if yo u don't EC, you are basically neglecting your child's needs. And that is not true at all.

And here: http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....=10&page_num=5

The "fun" parts of it:

*28. Impresses and amazes other people.*

Really? That's not a boastful, "superior-than-you" comment, is it







? Is that really a reason why people do it? Need to stroke the ego a bit, huh?

Quote:

54. EC respects children.
What a joke. My children are respected just as much as your EC'd ones. My child's diapers are changed very frequently, they are not sitting in their waste all day long, which is the tone I get from some of the "benefits of ECing" list.


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## jessjgh1

LOL, it's a list of 75 things... don't take it too seriously. They are just generalized ideas to spark interest.... not things meant to be spiteful or broken down so much....

""If you're REALLY AP you'd WANT to EC" arguments, specifically."
I havent' read the list in a long time, but this one would probably bother me. I skimmed through it and didn't see it. Was that an actual quote you were responding too?
THis is what I noticed:

Quote:

EC is *consistent* with Attachment Parenting because it:
http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....=10&page_num=3
I don't really see saying it is consistent with ap is a problem.
I also agree that ec is not right for everyone but also that it is not as hard as it is often made out to be.
Jessica


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## Daffodil

Interesting thread. I think the breastfeeding analogy is right on. Not because the benefits of EC are as important as the benefits of breastfeeding, but because people's reasons for not ECing - just like their reasons for not breastfeeding - are mostly based on lack of experience and support, misinformation, and prevailing cultural norms.

We've all probably heard other moms giving their reasons for not breastfeeding, and found ourselves thinking that they just needed better information or more support, or wishing they could get over their unreasonable feeling that the whole thing was gross. I think moms who don't EC ought to at least be open to the idea that their reasons for not ECing may not be any more valid. But it sounds like a lot of people feel there's no point even considering that possibility, because doing EC just isn't that important.

(I think it's odd how many people are opposed to EC because they're grossed out at the thought of pee and poop getting on things. Think of all the posts you've read about leaking diapers, horrendous poop blowouts, babies who pee in your face when you're changing their diaper, etc. It's not as if diapering is accident-free - and a lot of those accidents wouldn't happen with an EC'd baby.)


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## GardenStream

Most of my parenting decisions are based on my gut feeling. EC doesn't feel right for us. Also, I would rather put my energy and effort into things that I feel will be more rewarding for myself and my family.


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## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
I don't know if you were directing that, at me, even partly, but I do feel I answered the original question on why I don't EC. I respect EC and try to be responsive to the needs of babes/toddlers in my life wrt elimination needs. I'm a quick changer, a baby sign user, but I'm not a pee- or poop-catcher.

True, as I understand it EC does not = diaperless, but it involves more bare bum time than diapered babies get, and more leaks from strategically positioned prefolds etc. Most EC babes I've known are pretty much naked at home in the early toddler stage, and there is a lot of cleaning up puddles/some cleaning up poop.

This.

I don't think I'm getting my point across. Maybe I should have been more clear about defining EC from the start, but there is such a spectrum of EC. You can have your child in diapers ALL THE TIME and still EC. Then the pee and poop you would be cleaning up would be in a diaper - the same place it would be if you were not ECing right?







So......??? I went through phases where I used diapers all the time, where I used diapers most of the time, and where I used diapers rarely. I really think I cleaned up a LOT less pee and poo then I would have if I didn't EC.

Oh, and no, I wasn't directing it at you, or anyone in particular.







Just trying to let everyone know that the absence of a diaper is not necessarily an integral part of ECing.


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## Logan

This whole thread makes me so sad









There are so many misconceptions and judgments I wouldnt even know where to start. I was going to say I was glad someone posted this question as I had been wanting to ask it myself. But the answers just make me feel sad....

We have a strong conviction to EC. It brings a lot of joy and connection to our family. I also love cloth diapers. We use them as back-up. When we are out or when my baby is little I always have them in a diaper, it takes all stress out of EC. That and my attitude towards is isnt about 'missing and catching'. Its about meeting my babies needs.

I believe the breastfeeding comparison was fair. Not all animals nurse, some birds regurgitate food into their chicks mouth, that's what's 'natural' for them. But please tell me about which wild animal chooses to cover their bum with something, excrete waste, then sit in it for an indefinite amount of time, by choice?

I dont know anyone who has EC'ed a baby who can see it as anything BUT biologically natural. My babies have certainly made it VERY clear to me which they prefer.

I have never waited and watched to "catch cues and signals". My babies told me if they needed to go, if I missed what the cry meant they wet, then they cried VERY loudly to be changed. Actually its the only time my kids will cry in carriers and such- if they need to go. As for interrupting bonding with family?







They would have interrupted it themselves. I dont take away my baby to the toilet when *I* think they need to go, I take them when *they* tell me they need to go.

I can think of an occasion like the one you mentioned where a friend came to visit and was holding my two-week old. She started fussing and I knew what she was signalling, even my two-year old announced that she needed to poop as he can tell her signals too. So yes, I took her to the toilet. Then she was happy and my friend could hold her again. Otehrwise she would have fussed until she went and then cried after. Babies are going to pee and poop anyway. Its just whether you take them before or clean up after. I dont agree that its about laziness. Cleaning diapers is harder than EC.

Usually when my baby starts fitting our absorbent underwear then I do those around the house. By this time (a few months old) poos are exclusively on the toilet. The underwear have enough absorbency that a wee doesnt go all over anything, except the inside of the underwear, just like it would if they were wearing a diaper. Wetting by this time would be maybe once a day, so I would just immediately take off the wet pants. No fuss, no mess.

I heard someone mention EC toddlers running around with no pants and making messes everywhere?







EC'd toddlers are usually completely using the toilet for day and night. EC is not toilet training though. I dont EC my kids in the hope they will be early to 'train'. They tell me they have a need, I meet it. There's no end goal in mind. The more I respond to their cries of needing to go the more obviously they try to alert me. If I ignored them, I guess they would just have to accept wetting themselves. Kind of like contol crying teaches the baby to accept their mother isnt going to come to their cries. Different need, same result.

During writing this my baby has stirred needing to pee twice. At which I have whipped off her nappy, put her over her potty and she has relaxed again back to sleep. If I had ignored this, she would have stirred to the point of getting upset, peed, then I would have had to change her nappy completely, then settle her back to sleep instead of her staying half asleep and me just laying her back down. I do not see how it could be more difficult to EC, unless you purposely dont change your baby when they're wet, in which case yes, I think EC is superior to *that*.









While Im sure there are valid choices to not EC Im pretty disappointed by some of the ignorance about what it actually entails. Kind of like those women who choose elective caesars before even attempting to give birth on their own because its 'too painful'. Not the kind of people I thought hung out here all that much....though that's certainly the attitude Im seeing.

EC has made our lives wonderful, I hope that anyone considering it will at least give it a go. If we hadnt EC'ed my babies would have cried countless times for seemingly no reason, I would have been at a loss as to what was wrong, and things would not be as peaceful and flowing as they are. I feel sad that those most against it actually dont understand it at all. There seem to be some pretty mainstream attitudes when it comes to this. I would think other attachment parents would be a little more open to alternative choices that meet individual babies needs....


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## pixiepunk

i know that everyone EC's differently, but the perception that there's pee and poop everywhere is just totally not true in my house. pee and poo go in a toilet or in a diaper/trainer. if it goes in a diaper/trainer, the diaper is removed immediately and the child is cleaned up. it bothers me that it is insinuated that if i EC i must live in an unhygienic environment. hygiene is actually one of my biggest reasons *for* EC'ing (another name often given to EC is Natural Infant Hygiene), so it always surprises me when hygiene is used as a reason not to. i think EC is much more hygienic than having your child go in his/her pants to sit in, then cleaning it up out of all the cracks and crevices. that doesn't happen very often with EC, but wow when it does...







man it grosses me out to have to clean up after a poopy diaper, and i find it extraordinarily unhygienic for everyone involved.

and having diapered my oldest until she was 9 months old when i learned about EC, EC'ing is actually easier than diapering conscientiously (keeping them without a cover and changing as soon as they are wet and soiled) because there's so much less mess to clean up and so many fewer diapers to wash, and because they actually pee less frequently when they're able to fully empty their bladder each time (which they don't do when they're in a diaper all the time). for me, EC'ing takes up way less time and resources and effort than diapering full-time did. i have 3 kids, and believe me i'm no martyr. i guarantee i spend no time staring at my kid wondering if they're going to pee at any moment, and i think it's pretty laughable to insinuate that most of the people who EC do. EC makes my life easier, not harder, on many many levels.

it has without a doubt enhanced my ability to communicate with my kids, and thus deepened our attachment. when my oldest was small (before i started EC) i very much misunderstood what she was trying to communicate to me about her elimination needs. i would wonder if there was something poking her or if her tummy hurt because she would suddenly be fussing where a moment before she was content, when in reality she was trying to get my attention because she didn't want to soil herself. i thought she "needed" to breastfeed a million times a night because she woke up and fussed and the breast would help her back to sleep, when what she really needed to do was pee and the breast helped her relax enough to go in he pants and lull her back to sleep.

it also greatly enhanced my understanding of what was going on in baby's body - often the first sign of something "off" with a baby is in his/her elimination, and things like the volume and color of a child's urine, and true frequency of urination are not understood at all if you diaper. if my infant actually only peed 6-8 times in a 24 period like they say, s/he would be massively dehydrated. if they have a sensitivity to a food, increased urination frequency is a big indicator. something that's not likely to be noticed if you change a diaper on a schedule since the total volume is going to be the same or similar, the frequency is just greater. and rashes are common among diapered babies, but pretty much unheard of if you EC - so if a baby develops redness or a rash in their diaper area, you know something is going on that needs immediate attention. there's a lot of information that can be communicated through a baby's elimination that can effect their overall health and well-being, well beyond the hygiene factor. an EC friend of mine was able to avoid an invasive catheter for her baby because she was able to have her pee into a cup. and the reason she knew there was something wrong to begin with was because of her observations of her elimination. turns out she had the very beginnings of a UTI, one that would've probably needed to be a much more serious infection before a parent who diapered would've noticed a problem.


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## BarefootScientist

Just wanted to say thanks to the other ECers on here for taking the time to post their experiences and such. I had no intention of defending EC really, and have no time to do so, just wanted to hear the "other side" so to speak...but it is really nice to have a counterbalance here...so thanks!


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## funkymamajoy

Watching for signals that a baby is about to pee so I can grab a potty or run to the bathroom just didn't interest me. I also wait to start potty training until they can get the bathroom, pull down their pants and get on the toilet by themselves.


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## Drummer's Wife

I'm kinda surprised that EC'ers are hurt/disappointed/saddened by misconceptions about EC'ing. Just b/c it's not something most parents have any desire to do (or even understand completely) doesn't negate your experience with it.

That said, there is a lot of good information on this thread, and by sharing it all in the Diapering forum, I'm sure there are mama's who have been enlightened who previously thought Elimination Communication = poop all over the place







but I don't see why the hurt emotions over how others choose to approach the toileting process (and really, that's what it is regardless of if you start at birth, or age 3).

I think there has been a lot of insight into why people don't EC, and that's what was asked







I think some are taking the comments too personally, when we all come from different places, and all reasons are valid - whether or not others agree with them, or not.


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## Daffodil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
and all reasons are valid - whether or not others agree with them, or not.

_All_ reasons are valid? Do you think that about reasons for not breastfeeding, or for doing CIO? Of course there are valid reasons for some people not to EC, just as there are valid reasons for some people not to breastfeed, but I don't think _every_ reason is valid.


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## Ceinwen

To answer the original question - I just had zero interest. When I had my oldest dd, I did reams of research on EC'ing, and just felt 'meh'. It didn't grab me, and I couldn't visualize myself doing it.


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## Drummer's Wife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
_All_ reasons are valid? Do you think that about reasons for not breastfeeding, or for doing CIO? Of course there are valid reasons for some people not to EC, just as there are valid reasons for some people not to breastfeed, but I don't think _every_ reason is valid.


No, I don't think most of the reasons for not breastfeeding or for letting your baby cry it out are valid.

But yes, I do think all the reasons I have read on this thread for not EC'ing (including mine: lazy) are valid because we are talking about the toileting process, not feeding or trust/security issues such as with breastfeeding and CIO.


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## susienjay

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist* 
Just wanted to say thanks to the other ECers on here for taking the time to post their experiences and such. I had no intention of defending EC really, and have no time to do so, just wanted to hear the "other side" so to speak...but it is really nice to have a counterbalance here...so thanks!










But you make it sound like it should be easy for anyone because it was easy for you. I was really gung ho to try it with my twins that were my 3rd and 4th children. I read everything I could while pregnant and was really excited about it. I spent about a month trying to do it. I caught exactly one pee the entire time I tried it. Really discouraging plus I wound up cleaning up lots of pee because I would leave them bottomless to try to figure out what times they normally peed. I never did figure out any particular pattern although I did learn that even newborn boy pee can travel really far. Maybe I'm just not in tune with my babies but it was very stressful for me and it felt very freeing when I decided to stop. I've thought maybe it would be easier with just one baby and did consider trying it again with my sixth child but didn't. I made it as far as buying a new little potty and that's it.


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## clicksab

Y'know, us non-ECers were asked a question and we answered. I _thought_ the OP said she wasn't interested in debating with us.

It's interesting to me that we keep being told that we are "misinformed" and basically making judgements on something we know nothing about, considering that MANY of us have said that we have seen EC in real life, have friends that EC, etc...and still feel that it is not the best thing for our families! I see a lot of idealist views in these posts (and if that is the way EC has turned out for you and your family, great!) but what I've actually _seen_ of EC is nothing like this ideal. And I know myself, and I know my family, and I know that there is no way that EC would be anything less than stressful for us, and harmful (yes, gasp, harmful!) to my children.

And I really, really hate the assumption that all babies will cry when wet and that diapering is akin to CIO. My DD, never, from the day she was born, cried when dirty. It was very confusing to us as new parents and took a while for us to get used to, and we had to learn to continually check her. And seeing as she is autistic and does not have the same sort of sensitivity to those sorts of things, I really think EC would have been very difficult for us.

Why is respecting other mom's informed choices so difficult? The assumption that we must be ignorant because we made a different choice is just not going to help your case.


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## zinemama

My kids are out of diapers but back in the day I would not have wanted to invest the little mental or emotional energy I had as the new mother of a baby in constantly watching for signs that he was about to pee or poop. I had no "conviction" about doing it, as a pp put it. Also, I didn't see any benefit to it for the baby whatsoever. I don't see it as analagous to breastfeeding. I don't scorn it for those who want to invest the time and do the clean-up. but I had zero interest.

That's why.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
_All_ reasons are valid? Do you think that about reasons for not breastfeeding, or for doing CIO? Of course there are valid reasons for some people not to EC, just as there are valid reasons for some people not to breastfeed, but I don't think _every_ reason is valid.

yeah, i have to agree, sorry but i don't think all reasons are valid in *any* discussion. i mean, do you think people who circumcise their baby boys solely based on false understanding about health and hygiene are stating a valid reason?! sure, if you do the research and understand the risks that there aren't health benefits, then OK. your reason is coming from a fully informed place, so it is valid, even if it's just "i think it looks totally weird uncirc'd." same with BF'ing - understand fully the risks and benefits of your choices and you "just can't deal with someone sucking on me," well OK. not the choice i would make, but valid none the less. but i think valid means true. and if you're basing a choice on false information, then i have to question the validity, regardless of the choice in question. if you don't EC because you "can't imagine poo all over the place" or "don't want to stare at your baby watching for cues all day long" .... well, sorry, i don't think those are valid reasons because i don't know anyone who EC's who has poo all over the place or who stares at their baby all day long watching for cues, nor do i know of a single book or website about EC that suggests that those things are in any way a part of EC. so that's coming from someone's perception of EC based on... what? who knows, but certainly not facts.


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## Drummer's Wife

Okay, maybe I am truly mis-informed after all because I think comparing EC to breastfeeding, CIO, and now circumcision is extreme.


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## 4Blessings

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Okay, maybe I am truly mis-informed after all because I think comparing EC to breastfeeding, CIO, and now circumcision is extreme.

Exactly.

I just don't get this line of argument.


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## Daffodil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *clicksab* 
Y'know, us non-ECers were asked a question and we answered. I _thought_ the OP said she wasn't interested in debating with us.

Yeah, I feel kind of bad debating the issue, since that's not really what this thread is for. I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable about giving their reasons. But I just can't resist commenting on this:

Quote:

It's interesting to me that we keep being told that we are "misinformed" and basically making judgements on something we know nothing about, considering that MANY of us have said that we have seen EC in real life, have friends that EC, etc...and still feel that it is not the best thing for our families!
The thing is, a lot of people say exactly the same kind of thing about breastfeeding. They know a lot of people who tried it, they tried it themselves, and based on their own real life experiences, they decided it just wasn't for them. When you hear those stories about breastfeeding, do you usually end up thinking, "Oh, okay, I guess it just wasn't the right choice for her?"


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## funkymamajoy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
if you don't EC because you "can't imagine poo all over the place" or "don't want to stare at your baby watching for cues all day long" .... well, sorry, i don't think those are valid reasons because i don't know anyone who EC's who has poo all over the place or who stares at their baby all day long watching for cues, nor do i know of a single book or website about EC that suggests that those things are in any way a part of EC. so that's coming from someone's perception of EC based on... what? who knows, but certainly not facts.

I've read about EC, admittedly I've never done it, but isn't the idea to watch for signals of when your baby is going to pee? To me, that sounds awfully similar to "stare at your baby watching for cues all day long."

I think baby signing might be a better analogy then breastfeeding. It can be a great tool to facilitate communication with a pre-verbal child but its just one tool of many.


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## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
The thing is, a lot of people say exactly the same kind of thing about breastfeeding. They know a lot of people who tried it, they tried it themselves, and based on their own real life experiences, they decided it just wasn't for them. When you hear those stories about breastfeeding, do you usually end up thinking, "Oh, okay, I guess it just wasn't the right choice for her?"

Yes, I do. Because it's not any of my business. And their kids will get on quite well in the world without me sticking my nose in and lecturing them about how they're just ignorant and obviously don't like their babies enough.


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## 4Blessings

Perhaps someone could post a brief definition of what EC is supposed to be if it isn't watching for signals? Diaperfreebaby says, "The process involves observing one's baby's signs and signals, providing cue sounds and elimination-place associations, and can be done with or without any diaper use."

I've read quite a bit about it myself and it wasn't something that I though was really important to focus on when I have so many other important things to focus on like breastfeeding and homeschooling.


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## pixiepunk

it is probably impossible to understand when it is so societally normal to ignore a child's elimination needs. but when you experience first-hand how aware your child is and how strongly they prefer not to use a diaper, it really does feel wrong on the deepest level to ignore that need. truly the same way i would feel about letting my baby cry because s/he was hungry when the clock didn't say it was "time" to feed her or how i might feel if i put her down in a crib to let her cry herself to sleep. my mama instinct would be screaming in my head "this is not right!"

wouldn't you feel it was wrong if an adult or an older child, who for whatever reason was not physically capable of taking themselves to the bathroom, were forced to use their pants as a toilet when they were asking for someone to help them to a bathroom and were being ignored? for a person who responds to that request from their infant all day long, it truly is horrible to consider ignoring it. when you know for sure that they are expressing a need to you, when they tell you in no uncertain terms that they need to go.... well it makes me feel sick to imagine ignoring them. yes, you have to learn the "language" of EC to hear what they are saying, but when you know it and you hear them, how can you just ignore them?

does any of that help to explain some of the "extreme" reactions? i truly do want to help people understand. before i understood i thought it was crazy too. and to a large degree it's not something you can truly understand until you actually experience it first-hand.

as for the mama who expressed that it wasn't true that all babies are aware... well, i think her experience is actually the exception that proves that rule. it is biologically normal for babies to have that awareness. just as it is biologically normal for babies to want to nurse and be able to latch onto the breast with little difficulty immediate after birth. but there are babies who can't latch. babies who don't signal when they are hungry. these are babies who have issues that need attention. this is not normal. the mama above whose baby didn't signal has autism and sensory issues. the fact that she didn't signal at all when needing to pee or when wet was probably one of the very first indicators that something was not right.


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## GardenStream

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
wouldn't you feel it was wrong if an adult or an older child, who for whatever reason was not physically capable of taking themselves to the bathroom, *were forced to use their pants as a toilet when they were asking for someone to help them to a bathroom and were being ignored?* for a person who responds to that request from their infant all day long, it truly is horrible to consider ignoring it. when you know for sure that they are expressing a need to you, when they tell you in no uncertain terms that they need to go.... well it makes me feel sick to imagine ignoring them. yes, you have to learn the "language" of EC to hear what they are saying, but when you know it and you hear them, how can you just ignore them?

Now I'm completely confused. I thought that you could do EC and still use diapers.

I feel like I've entered the twilight zone with this thread.


----------



## Juliacat

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
Yes, I do. Because it's not any of my business. And their kids will get on quite well in the world without me sticking my nose in and lecturing them about how they're just ignorant and obviously don't like their babies enough.

This. It's none of my business if someone else doesn't breastfeed. And "it didn't work for our family" and "I don't want someone sucking on me" are perfectly legitimate reasons not to breastfeed, IMO. That said, I still think breastfeeding is way more beneficial to babies than ECing, so I still think it's a false comparison.

Also, at this point I am very close to not giving a flying #($* what the "biological norm" is. About anything, really. I live in twenty-first century America and I have other things to do besides play the "I'm naturaler than you" game.

I do appreciate folks saying they EC for its own sake and not with an end goal in mind (earlier potty training or long-term health). That makes more sense to me than making exaggerated claims. And I do understand that when something is working really well for you, you wish other people would at least consider it, because it might work really well for them, too. I'm certainly not against EC. I just think some of the arguments in favor of it aren't very good.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
it is probably impossible to understand when it is so societally normal to ignore a child's elimination needs. but when you experience first-hand how aware your child is and how strongly they prefer not to use a diaper, it really does feel wrong on the deepest level to ignore that need.

I did EC with both my kids, and I'm all for it. But I have to say, I didn't experience first-hand such a strong desire not to use a diaper. I don't think parents who don't EC are always ignoring a strong need. I think EC would probably be the best choice for most families if people only had enough information and support to make it work well for them, but I don't think NOT doing it is deeply wrong.


----------



## octobermom

Quote:

but when you experience first-hand how aware your child is and how strongly they prefer not to use a diaper, it really does feel wrong on the deepest level to ignore that need.
Deffiently and I can't my self imangine ingnoring such a cue with any child of mine. I didn't have that matter of fact I had the opposite the one that reacted vilently and terrified if I tried working on having her eliminate over a potty sink ect. One that truly did not give any signs and one that actually PT quite late because her body simpily did not process those signals in a normal way.
Deanna


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Proud2BeAnAmerican* 
Perhaps someone could post a brief definition of what EC is supposed to be if it isn't watching for signals? Diaperfreebaby says, "The process involves observing one's baby's signs and signals, providing cue sounds and elimination-place associations, and can be done with or without any diaper use."

I've read quite a bit about it myself and it wasn't something that I though was really important to focus on when I have so many other important things to focus on like breastfeeding and homeschooling.

great question. "observing" and "obsessively watching all day long" are not at all the same thing. do you obsessively watch your baby all day long to discover when s/he wants to nurse? no, they start to root around and chew on their hand (or whatever it is your baby does.... each baby communicates this needs in their own way) and then you nurse them. maybe you can't nurse them right away (you're in the car and can't pull over, etc) so perhaps you let them suck on your finger or a paci or something until you're able to nurse. do you obsessively stare at your child all day long wondering if they are sleepy and ready to take a nap? i hope not







probably you watch for signs like rubbing eyes or fussing in that tired way or whatever it is your child does when they are tired, and then you put them to sleep. if you can't right away, you don't, and you do it as soon as possible.

it is the exact same thing with elimination, another basic biological need just like eating and sleeping. you go about your day, doing whatever it is you are doing. then your baby signals that they have to go... depending on the individual baby and the age of said baby, those signals can be different, but just as obvious as the BF'ing and sleeping ones when you know what to look for. so if you're able to get to a toilet you do. and you signal to them when they are peeing or pooing (making a sound like "psssss" is a popular one) so they can connect the feeling of going with the sound. and if you can't make it to a toilet you tell the baby to use the diaper and you change baby as soon as possible. maybe the baby is really engrossed in something else (like chewing on a block) and they don't notice that they have to go, and pee in their diaper. most EC'ers use non-waterproof diapers so they know right away and can change the diaper immediately. thus the baby never gets comfortable with being wet, or learns to disassociate the feelings of needing to pee with peeing. in addition the baby builds their sphincter muscles so gradually they pee and poo less frequently, can hold it for longer, and go in larger volume when they do go... all of which is a natural biological progression of development, and which varies greatly from baby to baby - just as the sucking need or sleeping needs of individual babies varies greatly.

many babies also eliminate at pretty regular intervals (upon waking, a certain amount of time after nursing/eating, every xx minutes/hours during the day). so you can also offer when you feel it's likely to be needed, or at convenient times like when you or an older child need to use the toilet, right before you leave the house or as soon as you arrive somewhere after being in the car a while, just as you would yourself or with an older child. this is where the signaling from the parent comes in handy, as they can usually release on cue if they have any need to go at all (just as you can make yourself pee before a long car trip even though you don't really have to).

just like other biological needs, babies express them, and just like other biological needs there are moments when the need is inconvenient (baby needs to nurse and you're on the road with nowhere to pull over, baby is ready for a nap and you're halfway through the grocery store). but for the most part it just becomes a regular part of your daily life. not something you even really think about, let alone obsess over all day long.


----------



## MamaMelis

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Okay, maybe I am truly mis-informed after all because I think comparing EC to breastfeeding, CIO, and now circumcision is extreme.

I agree. Extreme to the point of seeming, well, uneducated









And to the poster who said that as a CD Mama I "Ignored my childs toileting needs" ~ I'm cracking up. I provided wonderfully for their needs with a lovely soft organic cloth diaper, which I changed post "toileting", and with much love. My children never had so much as a diaper rash as babies, and were two of the easiest, happiest babies on earth, so clearly they suffered no long term trauma from me so horribly ignoring their toileting needs.

And to those who say that they are "Lazy" and that is why you didn't EC ~ I feel the opposite. I am way way way too energetic and busy exposing my child to the world (and by exposing I don't just mean their bum) to be interested in EC. If it works for you, super.

This thread actually is serving to turn me off more to EC than "educate" me, ironically enough


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *atobols* 
Now I'm completely confused. I thought that you could do EC and still use diapers.

I feel like I've entered the twilight zone with this thread.









diapers are used as a back-up so that if it's not possible to get to a bathroom you don't have pee and poo everywhere. they are not used as receptacles checked only at regular intervals while the baby sits in pee and poo in the interim.


----------



## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *susienjay* 
But you make it sound like it should be easy for anyone because it was easy for you.

I never said it should be easy for anyone. I think having too much on your plate already is a fabulous reason not to worry about EC if you don't want to. In fact, I think just not wanting to is a fabulous reason not to EC. I also think it's a fine reason for not breastfeeding, BTW.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
The smugness in this thread from people who say that non-ECers are uneducated, don't care about their kids, aren't attached enough is really, really offensive.


OMG! For the fifth or sixth time, will someone PLEASE show me where anyone said any of this??

I have a feeling this thread is going to get removed soon.


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
Deffiently and I can't my self imangine ingnoring such a cue with any child of mine. I didn't have that matter of fact I had the opposite the one that reacted vilently and terrified if I tried working on having her eliminate over a potty sink ect. One that truly did not give any signs and one that actually PT quite late because her body simpily did not process those signals in a normal way.
Deanna

sounds to me like your child communicated her elimination needs quite clearly, and you respectfully responded


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I did EC with both my kids, and I'm all for it. But I have to say, I didn't experience first-hand such a strong desire not to use a diaper. I don't think parents who don't EC are always ignoring a strong need. I think EC would probably be the best choice for most families if people only had enough information and support to make it work well for them, but I don't think NOT doing it is deeply wrong.

just to clarify, i didn't mean to infer that all parents have that experience, EC or not. i was just trying to explain the "extreme" reaction that people questioned, and how it felt for me and many others.


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist* 
I never said it should be easy for anyone. I think having too much on your plate already is a fabulous reason not to worry about EC if you don't want to. In fact, I think just not wanting to is a fabulous reason not to EC. I also think it's a fine reason for not breastfeeding, BTW.

OMG! For the fifth or sixth time, will someone PLEASE show me where anyone said any of this??

I have a feeling this thread is going to get removed soon.









just like in any discussion where a choice is made, people often jump on the defensive when the other side is explained. i mean if someone says they choose to breastfeed because it has been show to be better for the health of their baby, the person who chooses not to breastfeed infers that they are being judged for making a choice that is not best for their babies health. when i chose to cosleep i wasn't making a judgement on my mother who chose to put me in a crib, a crib just didn't feel right to me. but my mom might infer that i was judging her when i chose to cosleep. it can be said of anything from introduction of solids to babywearing to circ'ing or turning a carseat FF'ing or anything else a parent must make a choice about in our culture. i'm sure lots of people who use sposies feel they are being judged by their friends who use cloth because they express that they chose that because.... whyever they chose it, better for the environment, more comfy for baby, etc. etc.


----------



## Bokonon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
just like in any discussion where a choice is made, people often jump on the defensive when the other side is explained. i mean if someone says they choose to breastfeed because it has been show to be better for the health of their baby, the person who chooses not to breastfeed infers that they are being judged for making a choice that is not best for their babies health. when i chose to cosleep i wasn't making a judgement on my mother who chose to put me in a crib, a crib just didn't feel right to me. but my mom might infer that i was judging her when i chose to cosleep. it can be said of anything from introduction of solids to babywearing to circ'ing or turning a carseat FF'ing or anything else a parent must make a choice about in our culture. i'm sure lots of people who use sposies feel they are being judged by their friends who use cloth because they express that they chose that because.... whyever they chose it, better for the environment, more comfy for baby, etc. etc.

No, you said
"it is probably impossible to understand when it is so societally normal to ignore a child's elimination needs. but when you experience first-hand how aware your child is and how strongly they prefer not to use a diaper, it really does feel wrong on the deepest level to ignore that need. truly the same way i would feel about letting my baby cry because s/he was hungry when the clock didn't say it was "time" to feed her or how i might feel if i put her down in a crib to let her cry herself to sleep. my mama instinct would be screaming in my head "this is not right!"

wouldn't you feel it was wrong if an adult or an older child, who for whatever reason was not physically capable of taking themselves to the bathroom, were forced to use their pants as a toilet when they were asking for someone to help them to a bathroom and were being ignored? for a person who responds to that request from their infant all day long, it truly is horrible to consider ignoring it. when you know for sure that they are expressing a need to you, when they tell you in no uncertain terms that they need to go.... well it makes me feel sick to imagine ignoring them. yes, you have to learn the "language" of EC to hear what they are saying, but when you know it and you hear them, how can you just ignore them?"

where you used a form of the word "ignore" 6 times. If that's not judging, I don't know what is.


----------



## mambera

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
the fact that she didn't signal at all when needing to pee or when wet was probably one of the very first indicators that something was not right.

I can see this point of view; but my child is developmentally entirely normal and she is happy as a clam sitting in a wet diaper. She actually starts to cry when we change her (she hates having her clothing or diaper changed).

I give her lots of diaper free time to 'air out' the area and I know she pees a little bit about every twenty minutes but I have yet to see any kind of behavioral prodrome to peeing.


----------



## Bokonon

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
just like in any discussion where a choice is made, people often jump on the defensive when the other side is explained. i mean if someone says they choose to breastfeed because it has been show to be better for the health of their baby, the person who chooses not to breastfeed infers that they are being judged for making a choice that is not best for their babies health. when i chose to cosleep i wasn't making a judgement on my mother who chose to put me in a crib, a crib just didn't feel right to me. but my mom might infer that i was judging her when i chose to cosleep. it can be said of anything from introduction of solids to babywearing to circ'ing or turning a carseat FF'ing or anything else a parent must make a choice about in our culture. i'm sure lots of people who use sposies feel they are being judged by their friends who use cloth because they express that they chose that because.... whyever they chose it, better for the environment, more comfy for baby, etc. etc.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mambera* 
I can see this point of view; but my child is developmentally entirely normal and she is happy as a clam sitting in a wet diaper. She actually starts to cry when we change her (she hates having her clothing or diaper changed).

I give her lots of diaper free time to 'air out' the area and I know she pees a little bit about every twenty minutes but I have yet to see any kind of behavioral prodrome to peeing.











My son is 4.5, very normal, and didn't potty learn until he was 4 because he simply did not care that he was sitting in a wet diaper. He would always tell me when he had pooped, but didn't like to be changed in general and would rather be in a sopping wet diaper than stop what he was doing and have it changed.


----------



## felix23

I tried with both girls and it just didn't work for us. There is no crying or fussing or giving cues before they peed/pooped, they just did it. If I went diaper free they messed the floor unless I spent the majority of the day holding them over the toilet. Frankly, I have better things to do with my life.

I really hate the acusations that people who use diapers let their children just sit in their own waste for hours while the parents ignore their cries.







My dd gets changed the second she is wet, even though it makes her angry and sitting in a wet diaper doesn't bother her at all.

I'm glad it works for some people, but it doesn't make those people more attatched or more bonded with their baby then the people who use diapers.


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 

where you used a form of the word "ignore" 6 times. If that's not judging, I don't know what is.

responding to a question about why the reaction is viewed as "extreme" i explained how it would feel to me to not EC. it would feel like ignoring one of my child's basic needs, and would feel no different to me than ignoring anyone else's elimination needs. if you want to feel judged by how i feel, that's on you.

now my baby's awake and needs to pee, and my kids have come in from playing outside and want to bake cookies. so i'm going to go "ignore" this thread. please note, i am not making a judgement about this thread, nor do i find myself superior to anyone who continues to participate in it


----------



## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
as for the mama who expressed that it wasn't true that all babies are aware... well, i think her experience is actually the exception that proves that rule. it is biologically normal for babies to have that awareness. just as it is biologically normal for babies to want to nurse and be able to latch onto the breast with little difficulty immediate after birth. but there are babies who can't latch. babies who don't signal when they are hungry. these are babies who have issues that need attention. this is not normal. the mama above whose baby didn't signal has autism and sensory issues. the fact that she didn't signal at all when needing to pee or when wet was probably one of the very first indicators that something was not right.

I do think that not even every biologically normal baby necessarily signals either though. Mine went through periods when he would not signal. At those times I had to let him go in his diaper or rely more on timing. Relying on timing is often an easy way to do it too, and as long as you never force the child to use the potty I think it's just as good as relying on signals. We relied a LOT on timing and my kid still learned when he had to go. Just sayin'. I know you cleared that up more in a later post too.


----------



## pixiepunk

one last comment and then i swear i am forever done with this thread









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I don't think it's so much that people feel threatened or defensive, as just that they're seeing that some other people

have the wrong idea about EC, and it bothers them to see those wrong ideas perpetuated. Just as if people were saying they chose not to breastfeed because no one they know who tried it was ever able to produce enough milk, or because it usually hurts a lot, or because all the formula-fed babies they know are healthy and happy. Those statements probably wouldn't make most people who breastfeed feel _threatened_, but a lot of us might have a hard time reading a thread full of them without saying anything in defense of breastfeeding.









:
just like you might feel compelled to respond to someone who says cloth diapers seem messy and gross (poo and pee in the washing machine?!) and super time consuming, explaining that it hasn't been your experience at all, and offering some information to help them better understand the choice you made and what it looks like for real on a daily basis. that's all any of were trying to do. or at least that's my impression, of course i can only speak for myself.


----------



## jessjgh1

First, I'm really sorry there are some people that are turned off by this thread. Or if there are people that feel offended. Personally I just really love sharing info about ec'ing with people and truly do that because I think it is amazing and fascinating on many fronts (biologically, culturally- it is just interesting to me- as it was a fascinating experience).
In general (in many debates) I feel like if one says: 'I do x because it is responsive' there are many people that are interpreting that to mean 'if you don't do x than you are not responsive'. Then we argue round and round with everyone getting very very frustrated.

Perhaps there are also pieces of information about ec'ing that some may not know or even disagree with? *Do most people agree that infants are able to signal and hold pee to some degree? That at some point they lose that ability?*
Most people that learn a little about ec do seem to be aware of that premise.. but this means that potty learning and ec'ing are different. (Kind of like breastfed babies need to nurse more often than ff babies need a bottle.... both timings are right in that situation but generalizing one feeding schedule for all babies *is* wrong)
Bokonon brought up something and I used her example because it was the post I was reading.... not to signal her out

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 








My son is 4.5, very normal, and didn't potty learn until he was 4 because he simply did not care that he was sitting in a wet diaper. He would always tell me when he had pooped, but didn't like to be changed in general and would rather be in a sopping wet diaper than stop what he was doing and have it changed.

People _can_ start ec'ing at any age, but if the child has lost the ability to hold their pee you have to 'get that back' first. At 4 your child was not aware that he needed to pee and it didn't upset him. Fact. Fine. But not relevant to ec. I cannot say for sure, but I would suspect that at 4 days old, he probably did signal. You are still being responsive to him and you probably waited till he showed the conventional signs of readiness before beginning potty learning-- which is respectful. However, I don't see how that example applies to ec'ing... but I see how it makes our experiences different. Again, if you don't agree that babies can signal as infants and hold... then we really have to stop there and figure out some common ground.
I don't use words like 'responsive' or 'respectful' when I talk about ec'ing to be judgmental but to be descriptive. They fit both potty learning and ec and honestly they are buzzwords for ap/nfl lifestyles. I do try to be careful because I've been around the 'boards' long enough to know how easily words make people bristle. But if I say someone is responsive because they do x, it does NOT imply that everyone that does NOT do x is not being responsive and when people jump to that conclusion then we have that to clear up too.

It really is hard, I've said biological norm before- to refer to ec- and apparently that is inflammatory, too. What suggestions do you have for me?? Do you disagree that it is the norm? Is there a better way to say it? For me it is hard to keep my old impressions about conventional potty training now that I have ec'ed 2 kids. I mean really, I have so many wonderful things to share about breastfeeding and leaving my son intact and cosleeping and on this forum I would expect that I shouldn't be required to sugar-coat my experience or slave over word choice just so I don't piss someone off (-; (oops, pun unintended, but I kept it).

I don't _like_ to say that if you ec you then realize that the babies are trying to signal and hold their pee/poop till they eventually give up. There just is no 'easy' way to say that... and honestly any time we ec'ers state that people get mad, even if it is said as nicely as possible. It is either a fact or you disagree with it. If it is a fact, then you resolve what you are going to do about it. But the dialogue eventually reaches this point. Are we judgmental because we state this? Yes we are if we are being snarky or rude...
Some people have strong feelings about this. Some people don't think it is a big deal and others are horrified. Several times people have said that they think that cultures used to ec'ing would jump at the idea of disposables... but really, what if their first response to diapering was- horror and disgust? Aren't both likely to be true/valid responses?

We each resolve these facts and conflicts individually, as I mentioned, ec resonated for me, and I was quickly rewarded. I certainly do not expect my experience to be the one right way. Oh gosh no. and our culture is certainly not very condusive to ec'ing. And obvioulsy our message has not always been received as intended.... but that doesn't mean we should back down... but hopefully learn something and do better the next time.

I guess as an ec'er I see a lot of negativity about ec'ing on this thread. And things that I don't consider to 'have' to be a part of ecing keep being stated as absolutes. It doesn't mean that I think that is horrible to diaper or that everyone should ec. It doesn't mean that I should avoid correcting misconceptions either. This is the point of conflict that we run into over and over. It is either a truth and we have to resolve the conflict, or we disagree with a basic tenant and can argue that, too. I don't feel it is ultimately judgmental when both sides are trying to have dialogue. But it isn't respectful to ignore part of the issue just because it brings conflict either.

I hope some of that made sense, I now have to press submit and do errands.... back later, I really want to continue this dialogue, hopefully positively

Jessica


----------



## BarefootScientist

Jess, I think you are on to something there. Maybe we can still continue this interesting discussion in a respectful way if we start agreeing/disagreeing on certain premises.

So let's see...as I see it, the basic premises of EC (and you other ECers might have to help me refine or add to this list, heck, even you non-ECers may have to help):

1. Babies are aware (perhaps not consciously) of when they need to eliminate from birth.
2. They often prefer to eliminate in open air unless "taught" otherwise.
3. Babies often show in some way that they need to eliminate.
4. It is possible to pick up on those signals (or regular timing, or an intuition) and take them to pee/poop in an appropriate place.
5. It is preferable to do this rather than change a diaper after the fact.
6. It is feasible.
7. It is personally desirable.

So, now we can decide which tenants we agree with and which we don't.


----------



## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
First, I'm really sorry there are some people that are turned off by this thread. Or if there are people that feel offended. Personally I just really love sharing info about ec'ing with people and truly do that because I think it is amazing and fascinating on many fronts (biologically, culturally- it is just interesting to me- as it was a fascinating experience).
In general (in many debates) I feel like if one says: 'I do x because it is responsive' there are many people that are interpreting that to mean 'if you don't do x than you are not responsive'. Then we argue round and round with everyone getting very very frustrated.

Perhaps there are also pieces of information about ec'ing that some may not know or even disagree with? *Do most people agree that infants are able to signal and hold pee to some degree? That at some point they lose that ability?*
Most people that learn a little about ec do seem to be aware of that premise.. but this means that potty learning and ec'ing are different. (Kind of like breastfed babies need to nurse more often than ff babies need a bottle.... both timings are right in that situation but generalizing one feeding schedule for all babies *is* wrong)
Bokonon brought up something and I used her example because it was the post I was reading.... not to signal her out

People _can_ start ec'ing at any age, but if the child has lost the ability to hold their pee you have to 'get that back' first. At 4 your child was not aware that he needed to pee and it didn't upset him. Fact. Fine. But not relevant to ec. I cannot say for sure, but I would suspect that at 4 days old, he probably did signal. You are still being responsive to him and you probably waited till he showed the conventional signs of readiness before beginning potty learning-- which is respectful. However, I don't see how that example applies to ec'ing... but I see how it makes our experiences different. Again, if you don't agree that babies can signal as infants and hold... then we really have to stop there and figure out some common ground.
I don't use words like 'responsive' or 'respectful' when I talk about ec'ing to be judgmental but to be descriptive. They fit both potty learning and ec and honestly they are buzzwords for ap/nfl lifestyles. I do try to be careful because I've been around the 'boards' long enough to know how easily words make people bristle. But if I say someone is responsive because they do x, it does NOT imply that everyone that does NOT do x is not being responsive and when people jump to that conclusion then we have that to clear up too.

It really is hard, I've said biological norm before- to refer to ec- and apparently that is inflammatory, too. What suggestions do you have for me?? Do you disagree that it is the norm? Is there a better way to say it? For me it is hard to keep my old impressions about conventional potty training now that I have ec'ed 2 kids. I mean really, I have so many wonderful things to share about breastfeeding and leaving my son intact and cosleeping and on this forum I would expect that I shouldn't be required to sugar-coat my experience or slave over word choice just so I don't piss someone off (-; (oops, pun unintended, but I kept it).

I don't _like_ to say that if you ec you then realize that the babies are trying to signal and hold their pee/poop till they eventually give up. There just is no 'easy' way to say that... and honestly any time we ec'ers state that people get mad, even if it is said as nicely as possible. It is either a fact or you disagree with it. If it is a fact, then you resolve what you are going to do about it. But the dialogue eventually reaches this point. Are we judgmental because we state this? Yes we are if we are being snarky or rude...
Some people have strong feelings about this. Some people don't think it is a big deal and others are horrified. Several times people have said that they think that cultures used to ec'ing would jump at the idea of disposables... but really, what if their first response to diapering was- horror and disgust? Aren't both likely to be true/valid responses?

We each resolve these facts and conflicts individually, as I mentioned, ec resonated for me, and I was quickly rewarded. I certainly do not expect my experience to be the one right way. Oh gosh no. and our culture is certainly not very condusive to ec'ing. And obvioulsy our message has not always been received as intended.... but that doesn't mean we should back down... but hopefully learn something and do better the next time.

I guess as an ec'er I see a lot of negativity about ec'ing on this thread. And things that I don't consider to 'have' to be a part of ecing keep being stated as absolutes. It doesn't mean that I think that is horrible to diaper or that everyone should ec. It doesn't mean that I should avoid correcting misconceptions either. This is the point of conflict that we run into over and over. It is either a truth and we have to resolve the conflict, or we disagree with a basic tenant and can argue that, too. I don't feel it is ultimately judgmental when both sides are trying to have dialogue. But it isn't respectful to ignore part of the issue just because it brings conflict either.

I hope some of that made sense, I now have to press submit and do errands.... back later, I really want to continue this dialogue, hopefully positively

Jessica

I don't agree with the premise that ALL babies signal from birth. I tried to ec from the beginning with dd2 and she just never gave any signals. I read the books and read ec support boards about all the tiny signals babies would give, and it just never happened. I even kept a journal for a while trying to document if she had any changes in behaviour or made any sounds, and there was nothing. If I went diaper free, she peed/pooped all over my house, so I ended up using diapers and after about 4-5 months, I just gave up on EC completely since it didn't work for us.

I don't think my dd was an exception to the rule or anything either, I know several people who had the exact same experience that I did.


----------



## Ammaarah

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 

The thing is, a lot of people say exactly the same kind of thing about breastfeeding. They know a lot of people who tried it, they tried it themselves, and based on their own real life experiences, they decided it just wasn't for them. When you hear those stories about breastfeeding, do you usually end up thinking, "Oh, okay, I guess it just wasn't the right choice for her?"

Of course I respect it if a mom chooses not to breastfeed. Anything else would be needless judgment on my part, and it wouldn't help the baby for me to think bad stuff about her mother.


----------



## HappyFox05

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
I don't agree with the premise that ALL babies signal from birth. I tried to ec from the beginning with dd2 and she just never gave any signals. I read the books and read ec support boards about all the tiny signals babies would give, and it just never happened.









Hehehe, my LO's only signal was for me to turn my back for a few seconds, then, POW, puddle of pee. And, yes, it really was only for a few seconds.


----------



## ElaynesMom

Wow, I don't think I ever would have responded to this thread if I had known what it was going to turn into. Unfortunately it seems as though it went from asking what peoples reasons are for EC'ing, to telling people why all those reasons are wrong and why EC'ing is so much better. Despite using disposable diapers I have always had an interest in CD'ing and EC'ng, thinking I may try with my next baby. However, I can now say for certain I am completely turned off of EC. It really sems to me like a lot of posters (EC'ers) have taken over this thread to use it to give themselves a pat on the back for doing the "right" thing, and I find it hurtful. I find it hurtful that it has been implied that I'm ignoring my dd's needs by not EC'ing, or even changing her diaper the second she wets is hurtful. Dismissing hurt feelings because you think you are right, or thinking you are just telling the truth doesn't make it ok IMO. Everyone does the best they can, I know I did. If that means I don't EC and my baby sits in a wet diaper for a short amount of time because I just haven't noticed it's wet, then so be it. I can see that EC would have added stress to my life (from reading your posts/various sites promoting EC), especially since no one would have helped me with it, unlike the help I did get with diapering. It was stress I just didn't need when I was on the verge of breaking down.


----------



## Drummer's Wife

I have four children, and I honestly think one of them in particular would have been much more comfortable - and preferred - sitting in a wet/soiled cloth diaper for a few minutes over being dangled over a toilet/sink/pot multiple times per day (regardless of if he would have been able to signal his need to urinate/poo). So, I guess I"m just saying that while I get that most people, myself included, would not want to have a dirty diaper pressed against my skin, there may very well be plenty of infants who would be upset with being bare bummed to do their business.

I still don't think anything badly (or think it's weird, or gross, or whatever) to practice EC -- just that it may not only be mothers like myself who are unwilling to try it, but there may very well be babies that are non-receptive, too. Of course, you won't know unless you give it a decent shot, but it was just something I was thinking of.


----------



## ~pi

In response to the original question, basically, we knew DS would be starting daycare at a year and didn't want to have to add "willing to EC" to our already lengthy list of daycare requirements in a place where waiting lists are typically years long.

We did try it briefly out of interest/curiosity, but never really gave it a serious effort. It sounds cool, but just wasn't that important to us.

Also, I'm not always great with signals. DH is the observant parent who got to the point where he could tell when the babe was about to poop. I never did. (Then again, DH did most of the diaper changes and all the diaper laundry, so maybe he was just more motivated!







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
I'm amazed to hear of babies who only pee 5 or 6 times a day - WOW! Any baby I've known has peed way more than that- but I have not been *that* intimate with very many babies. The 5 or 6 prefolds I go through in a day have one pee each in them - I probably catch another 8-12 pees, maybe more? Sounds like those 5-6 pee a day babies are holding it a long time! Or maybe my kids are just frequent pee-ers - I do remember changing DS's diaper much more often than his peers, and not because I was super-vigilant about it, but because they were soaked.

Different people have different bladder sizes. I drink tons of water but can still pee just once or twice a day. (I make myself to go more often to avoid UTIs.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juliacat* 
This. It's none of my business if someone else doesn't breastfeed. And "it didn't work for our family" and "I don't want someone sucking on me" are perfectly legitimate reasons not to breastfeed, IMO. That said, I still think breastfeeding is way more beneficial to babies than ECing, so I still think it's a false comparison.

[...]

I do appreciate folks saying they EC for its own sake and not with an end goal in mind (earlier potty training or long-term health). That makes more sense to me than making exaggerated claims. And I do understand that when something is working really well for you, you wish other people would at least consider it, because it might work really well for them, too. I'm certainly not against EC. I just think some of the arguments in favor of it aren't very good.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist* 
Jess, I think you are on to something there. Maybe we can still continue this interesting discussion in a respectful way if we start agreeing/disagreeing on certain premises.

So let's see...as I see it, the basic premises of EC (and you other ECers might have to help me refine or add to this list, heck, even you non-ECers may have to help):

1. Babies are aware of when they need to eliminate from birth.
2. They prefer to eliminate in open air unless "taught" otherwise.
3. Babies typically have ways to communicate their need to eliminate.
4. It is possible to pick up on those signals (or regular timing, or an intuition) and take them to pee/poop in an appropriate place.
5. It is preferable to do this rather than change a diaper after the fact.
6. It is feasible.
7. It is personally desirable.

So, now we can decide which tenants we agree with and which we don't.

I'm not sure I completely agree with #2. I'd probably add the word "often." My babies often seemed to prefer eliminating in open air, but there were certainly times they eliminated in their diapers and didn't seem to mind it a bit.

I'd probably substitute "often" for "typically" in #3. Actually, I might change the whole thing to "Babies often show that they need to eliminate." I think it's inaccurate to imply that they're always deliberately communicating their need, because in my experience there was not much deliberate signalling until they were toddlers. And especially with my DD, there often weren't any noticeable signals at all.


----------



## clicksab

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
as for the mama who expressed that it wasn't true that all babies are aware... well, i think her experience is actually the exception that proves that rule. it is biologically normal for babies to have that awareness. just as it is biologically normal for babies to want to nurse and be able to latch onto the breast with little difficulty immediate after birth. but there are babies who can't latch. babies who don't signal when they are hungry. these are babies who have issues that need attention. this is not normal. the mama above whose baby didn't signal has autism and sensory issues. the fact that she didn't signal at all when needing to pee or when wet was probably one of the very first indicators that something was not right.

Hmmm...I can't really argue the validity of what you've said here. I just feel like in this paragraph, and many others, you just don't seem to be very sensitive to other posters feelings in an effort to get your point across. There's nothing like reading about how my child is not the biological norm and was apparently showing it from day one, lol.

I really should step away from this thread now, since I'm having a bad day and I'm super hormonal! Peace and love to all of you, diaper users and ECers alike


----------



## jessjgh1

Sabrina
((hugs))
Agreed. That could not have been easy to read. I'm sorry.
Jessica


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## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist* 
Jess, I think you are on to something there. Maybe we can still continue this interesting discussion in a respectful way if we start agreeing/disagreeing on certain premises.

So let's see...as I see it, the basic premises of EC (and you other ECers might have to help me refine or add to this list, heck, even you non-ECers may have to help):

1. Babies are aware of when they need to eliminate from birth.
2. They prefer to eliminate in open air unless "taught" otherwise.
3. Babies typically have ways to communicate their need to eliminate.
4. It is possible to pick up on those signals (or regular timing, or an intuition) and take them to pee/poop in an appropriate place.
5. It is preferable to do this rather than change a diaper after the fact.
6. It is feasible.
7. It is personally desirable.

So, now we can decide which tenants we agree with and which we don't.

I'm wondering what sort of science there is to back this up? I'm not talking about the sort of anthropology I alluded to in my original response on this thread, but actual science about cognitive development? Because I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and a few items on this list go against basically everything known about infant brain development: specifically how infants localize sensations and how they react to certain stimuli.

Since I actually disagree with every single item on that list for one reason or another, except for #4 which I'll agree is true for some children, it doesn't actually work to convince me of much of anything!


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## jessjgh1

1. Babies are aware of when they eliminate from birth
2. They prefer to eliminate away from their bodies, sleeping spaces
3. Babies typically have ways to communicate their need to eliminate.
4. It is possible to pick up on those signals or use regular timingand take them to pee/poop in an appropriate place.
5. Over time, a relationship between timing, signals, and ability to control/hold develops (lacking a great way to finish this one up)

I think the following ones I'd agree with, but I kinda squirm at having them on this kind of list
5. It is preferable to do this rather than change a diaper after the fact.
6. It is feasible.
7. It is personally desirable.

Ok, gotta go and start getting ready for T-giving. Wishing everyone a warm and wonderful holiday or if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving a wonderful week.

Jessica


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## ~pi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I'm wondering what sort of science there is to back this up? I'm not talking about the sort of anthropology I alluded to in my original response on this thread, but actual science about cognitive development? Because I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and a few items on this list go against basically everything known about infant brain development: specifically how infants localize sensations and how they react to certain stimuli.

Since I actually disagree with every single item on that list for one reason or another, except for #4 which I'll agree is true for some children, it doesn't actually work to convince me of much of anything!

I'd be interested as well.

As for things below #4, note that the list is (I believe, based on BarefootScientist's text) a premise for EC. So 5, 6, and 7 are personal value statements. If you don't share those values, they aren't true for you.


----------



## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I'm not sure I completely agree with #2. I'd probably add the word "often." My babies often seemed to prefer eliminating in open air, but there were certainly times they eliminated in their diapers and didn't seem to mind it a bit.

I'd probably substitute "often" for "typically" in #3. Actually, I might change the whole thing to "Babies often show that they need to eliminate." I think it's inaccurate to imply that they're always deliberately communicating their need, because in my experience there was not much deliberate signalling until they were toddlers. And especially with my DD, there often weren't any noticeable signals at all.

Those sound like good changes, I'll go edit it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I'm wondering what sort of science there is to back this up? I'm not talking about the sort of anthropology I alluded to in my original response on this thread, but actual science about cognitive development? Because I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and a few items on this list go against basically everything known about infant brain development: specifically how infants localize sensations and how they react to certain stimuli.

Since I actually disagree with every single item on that list for one reason or another, except for #4 which I'll agree is true for some children, it doesn't actually work to convince me of much of anything!

I don't think there really has been any studies done on this. Can you explain which items go against child development and how? I am not very knowledgeable about child development. And once again, not trying to convince, this list is an attempt to find out where we part ways.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
1. Babies are aware of when they eliminate from birth
2. They prefer to eliminate away from their bodies, sleeping spaces
3. Babies typically have ways to communicate their need to eliminate.
4. It is possible to pick up on those signals or use regular timingand take them to pee/poop in an appropriate place.
5. Over time, a relationship between timing, signals, and ability to control/hold develops (lacking a great way to finish this one up)

I think the following ones I'd agree with, but I kinda squirm at having them on this kind of list
5. It is preferable to do this rather than change a diaper after the fact.
6. It is feasible.
7. It is personally desirable.

Well, the reason I included them is that we're trying to see where people disagree. If they agree with everything 1-5 for example, but just don't think it's preferable to EC over changing the diaper, that would be totally valid, but then we know they don't argue with the theory of EC but the desirability of it, ykwim? Just to find out where everyone stands.


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## DevaMajka

I've removed some posts for UAV's and also responses to those posts. I'm in the process of contacting people, but thought I'd get this back on the boards.

If there are any more UAV's, this thread will be permanently removed. (that sounds a lot more harsh than I intend it to. Just think of it being said in a friendly way







)


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## BarefootScientist

Bump!


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## mambera

This thread had me wondering whether I might be doing my daughter a disservice by not EC'ing, so I've spent a few days lurking on the EC forum. Here are my 'barefoot anthropologist'







findings.

1) I see a number of posts from people whose older babies or toddlers, despite having EC'ed from very early on, prefer *not* to use the potty but will instead go in their underwear or in a diaper if the person is using backup. This doesn't suggest to me that babies have a universal aversion to going in their pants.

2) I saw a discussion of 'signals' in which the majority of the EC moms said they relied largely on timing (eg taking their kids potty every hour by the clock) because their children never really showed any clear specific signals, despite having EC'ed since very early on for many of them.

Actually a lot of the EC moms seemed really frustrated with their EC experiences (perhaps having expected, but not realized, early PL as a reward for their efforts). There was a whole long, very interesting thread about EC in more traditional societies and how/why it works better there. A lot of it seemed to be about society's not minding accidents, and little kids being able to "pop a squat" outside most of the time. So again, this seems to suggest that infants and toddlers are mostly about eliminating when/where it is convenient, rather than specifically choosing to avoid soiling themselves. If they're outside in split-crotch pants, they'll do it there. If they're inside wearing a diaper, they'll do it there.

So nothing I've read on the EC forum convinces me that the children themselves generally have a preference other than convenience. (Not to say that *some* children don't prefer it one way or the other - obviously every child has his/her individual preferences - but that the comments in the EC forum don't convince me of a *general tendency* on the part of babies to prefer EC over diapers.)

3) I see a lot of posts from people who are wiping multiple pees/poops off their floors every day, and who say that diaper backup is not very effective EC and if you really want to do it correctly, you have to take your child out of diapers. This does not accord with what's been said earlier in this thread.

I understand that diaper backup is a personal choice but it really sounds to me that many posters on the EC board agree that the EC is significantly less effective with diaper backup.

4) I also see posts from moms who *did* put a whole lot of time, effort, and thought into 'catching pees,' and actually found it a little exhausting. (Taking the kid potty every hour by the clock does sound exhausting to me, I have to say.) Again, suggesting that while maybe the EC reps on this thread don't find the EC burdensome, a lot of committed EC'ers do (probably depends on your personal threshold as well as your child's behavior).

So honestly, what I've gleaned from lurking over the past few days doesn't suggest that the experiences of other EC'ers accord 100% with the glowing personal reports of the few EC'ers posting here.

It sounds to me like the reps here have had very positive experiences with EC, which is great and may have to do with the particular elimination personalities of their children. I can see why they would want to share something that worked so well for them. BUT it doesn't sound like everyone's experiences with EC are so uniformly positive.


----------



## isabchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimi5* 
As someone who has promoted EC for the past 4 years, and practiced EC for nearly 7 years, I am deeply saddened by some of the comments here. There seems to be some anger and unfair misconceptions, such as that ECers think we are better mothers or that it is just a gimmick. I have long said that I promote EC to let people know what they *could* do, not what they *should* do. Making comments like that not only hurts me because of all the countless hours I've put in as an EC advocate, but it hurts me deeply as a parent.

My background is that I have 6 children. My first 2 were diapered full time and conventionally toilet trained. My 3rd was a late late start ECer, and my youngest 3 have full-time ECed since birth.

I have also breastfed all of them between 1 1/2 and 4 years, and I'm currently nursing my youngest. Infact I have been breastfeeding continuously for the past 10 1/2 years. As a breastfeeding advocate and breastffeding support person it makes me sad to hear that comparing EC and breastfeeding is offensive. I know that many mothers have had their breastfeeding difficulties resolved or helped because of learning some EC techniques (for example popping on and off the breast is a sign of needing to pee or poop and many babies will not settle down to nurse until after they have been pottied). For more on EC and breastfeeding check out this link:

http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....ion=295:14:242

Several people have asked about the benefits of EC. I don't think you can truly understand some of them unless you try EC, but 75 reasons are listed on the DiaperFreeBaby website. Here is the link:

http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/index....osition=251:14

I don't even know where to start on all the misconceptions. I guess I will just address a few that I can remember. About that idea that you need to watch your baby for cues all day to EC, you don't need to do this anymore than you need to stay home all day to watch for signs of hunger to breastfeed on cue. It is the exact same concept as breastfeeding on cue, and there is nothing offensive about that.

About all mammals nurse their young the same, but handle their eliminations differently, I would suggest reading If My Mom Were A Platypus which descibes how nursing varies amongst mammals.

About the messiness factor, in my experience EC is less messy than both full-time diapering (both cloth and sposies) and conventional toilet training.

I have been thinking a lot lately that I think one of the biggest reasons mothers don't want to try EC is fear of failure. I think there is a misconception that ECing ccaregivers have to catch everything and never use back-up, etc. There is no such thing as perfect EC, not even in indigenous cultures. EC is also not outcome based. The goal of EC is not potty training in the same way that the goal of breastfeeding isn't to wean as quickly as possible. In both instances you meet the need until the child outgrows it, and as long as mother and child desires.

Anyway, I just really want to encourage everyone to check out sites like www.diaperfreebaby.org, www,diaperfreechallenge.org, and www.cleanearthhappybaby.org and read about how EC has impacted parents and babies, or give it a try, before dismissing not only the practice of EC but the experiences of the families practicing it.

Warmly,
Elizabeth











Thank you!... Elizabeth


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## DevaMajka

I don't full time EC (but I think I'll try to step it up a little bit, as long as it's relatively convenient to do so).

The main reason I part time EC is that if I diaper ds right after he pees in the potty, then I know that he'll spend the longest time possible in a dry diaper afterwards







That's probably my main motivation. Oh, and it's WAY WAY less gross when he poops in the potty than in his diaper.

He actually started it- when he was way little (weeks old) he started pottying on the changing table after his diaper was off. At that point, I just always put a prefold under him so he could go and I could clean it up easily. We got a little potty, and he LOVES sitting on it. I think he likes the change of view. lol. If he didn't seem to like pottying, I wouldn't do it. We're going based on how he seems to feel about it.

The reasons that I really don't think I'll end up full time EC are:
With ds1 I got frustrated that it wasn't "working." I was too caught up in how well it was going, and not focusing on what was working for ds and for me.
I'm no good at reading cues








I'm not sure how easy it would be to get him to the potty and get his diaper off in time for him to go. I don't know how much I'd like doing that 12 times a day (which is how often he pees), or how I'd feel if I tried and he didn't end up going. Though...I do change his diaper that often, and try to change right after he pees, so it might not be any different.

I use coverless fitteds (with fleece pants) to get an idea of how often he goes. I personally would not be down with him going diaperless just running around the house unless it was right after he pee'd in the potty and only for a short amount of time, and I was almost certain he wouldn't poop. Bare butt time is good.

eta- a side note. When I first read this thread, halfway through, he pooped in his diaper. I think it was about the time I was reading that EC was gross. So I went to change his diaper, and there was poop all over. Well, he reached his hand down so he had poo all over his hand. I was trying to keep his hand out of his mouth, and his feet out of the poo AND clean off his hand at the same time. Then I noticed that the poo had escaped the diaper, and was all over his jammies and t-shirt. So I had a dirty diaper, dirty clothes, and the changing pad got all dirty. lol. When he goes in the potty, it's just a matter of dump and rinse, or better yet if he goes in the big potty- I just flush!
I just had a laugh about the timing of it all.


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## tracymom1

Going back to the question in the OP...

I did not know the concept of EC existed with my first. I had never heard of such a thing! When pregnant with DD - who is now 4 months old - I started reading about it, mostly out of curiosity. It seems kind of confusing to me and I am not sure I could really read the cues very well... having a toddler to chase around takes up so much time and energy! I think if I could attend some type of seminar or lecture about it instead of reading about it I would be more inclined to try it. I'm a hands-on kind of learner.

And, really, I don't mind the diapers all that much. DS is 26 months and he is leading the way with PL so I think we will be there sooner rather than later.


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## funkymamajoy

ITA, Mambera.

I don't think ec is harmful at all and I'm glad people have positive experiences with it. I just don't think a baby that spent 9 months in fluid cares about being dry.


----------



## Logan

Mambera, without meaning to offend my fellow ECers. I dont read EC boards. I got fed up with the general attitude of most of the posts. None of the EC boards I have read resonated with how EC fits in with our family. (now I havent read the MDC one- I havent had any interest to) But I found that the people who had difficulties either misunderstood the concept or were making there own difficulities. What I mean by that is that it was their approach that was causing them frustrations not the actual EC.

We're pretty hardcore about EC, but that said I dont have any expectations of what it will be. I have said in a previous reply, for me it is about meeting my child's needs for what they tell me they need. NOT about 'potty training'. This is where a lot of new ECers get mixed up I feel. For me it has nothing to do with the actual thing (pee) just like burping my baby has nothing to do milk. I EC because she has a need and is uncomfortable, peeing is what meets that need. I burp her because her belly is hurting and she is uncomfortable and burping meets that need. I dont have some underlying desire to get her gas-free earlier than her peers









The majority of post I have read on every EC forum/group etc I have been on have been about "catches" and "misses". Ie. "We are having so many misses" or similar. That to me has nothing to do with EC. If I expected to have my newborn pee and poop exclusively in the toilet then I would be setting myself up for frustration! Its never gonna happen.

I find that too many ECers on the board see it as failure if the baby pees in their diaper and success if they 'catch' it before. I do not look at EC that way even remotely. I see it as failure if my baby screams for half an hour because I have missed that they are trying to signal me, then if they scream again for half an hour because they're wet and I havent bothered to check (not that those would happen- unless I didnt know about EC, but...) I see it as success if my child is telling me something and I meet that need. Even if that need is that they need milk more than the toilet and so they feed and pee in the meantime and I change the diaper once wet.

Am I making sense?

I hesitate to say you can get EC wrong, but honestly it seems to me a lot of people approach it the wrong way. As 'early potty learning' instead of just listening to your child. Some things I have seen a lot on EC boards which irk me the wrong way are:

-Sitting the child on the potty for more than 30 seconds (especially if they have signalled they dont need to go)- even if they are happy to do this they dont need to go, this is trying to 'catch' a wee on the potty. Its for you, not for them.

-Feeling bad/guilty/disheartened/like a failure if you dont catch every single wee. EC is not about how much or how little they pee on the toilet. Its about *connection* and needs being met.

-*Constantly* offering the potty to the detriment of everything else. Even when they havent signalled, are getting annoyed/upset by the offering and dont need to go. If its consuming your attention to the exclusion of other important things, like playing







, you've gone to far.

I hope I am explaining this properly. But I find even some ECers seem to have the wrong idea about the purpose of EC.

I expected my newborn to pee often in her nappy. So my expectation was met. If I had expected EC to 'catch' them all, I would have been disappointed.

I expect that as my child grows she learns to trust that I will respond to her signals and therefore signal me more clearly. That expectation is met. If I expected her to learn how to signal perfectly at half hour intervals, and to never be distracted, nor signal when it was impossible for me to take her then I would be disappointed.

I expect that she will let me know when she needs to go and respect her negative signals if I misinterpret a cue. If I expected her to pee just because *I* thought she hadnt in a while and needed to, I would have been disappointed.

But there is no winning and losing in EC as I see it. If I am responding to her needs as quickly and diligently as I can then there's really nothing to get wrong. And there's nothing to be disappointed about because I dont have any false expectations about what EC means. But if there is an end goal for me, or if I see my child weeing in a nappy as a failure, or if I start to place any kind of agenda on my child, then I have deviated from EC and moved into early toilet training. And early toilet training is damaging for the child and your relationship with them. EC is the opposite. It strengthens the bond and brings joy to our relationship.


----------



## funkymamajoy

Logan, if you were my introduction to ec I probably would've tried it.


----------



## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Mambera, without meaning to offend my fellow ECers. I dont read EC boards. I got fed up with the general attitude of most of the posts. None of the EC boards I have read resonated with how EC fits in with our family. (now I havent read the MDC one- I havent had any interest to) But I found that the people who had difficulties either misunderstood the concept or were making there own difficulities. What I mean by that is that it was their approach that was causing them frustrations not the actual EC.

We're pretty hardcore about EC, but that said I dont have any expectations of what it will be. I have said in a previous reply, for me it is about meeting my child's needs for what they tell me they need. NOT about 'potty training'. This is where a lot of new ECers get mixed up I feel. For me it has nothing to do with the actual thing (pee) just like burping my baby has nothing to do milk. I EC because she has a need and is uncomfortable, peeing is what meets that need. I burp her because her belly is hurting and she is uncomfortable and burping meets that need. I dont have some underlying desire to get her gas-free earlier than her peers









The majority of post I have read on every EC forum/group etc I have been on have been about "catches" and "misses". Ie. "We are having so many misses" or similar. That to me has nothing to do with EC. If I expected to have my newborn pee and poop exclusively in the toilet then I would be setting myself up for frustration! Its never gonna happen.

I find that too many ECers on the board see it as failure if the baby pees in their diaper and success if they 'catch' it before. I do not look at EC that way even remotely. *I see it as failure if my baby screams for half an hour* *because I have missed that they are trying to signal me, then if they scream again for half an hour because they're wet and I havent bothered to check (not that those would happen- unless I didnt know about EC, but...)* I see it as success if my child is telling me something and I meet that need. Even if that need is that they need milk more than the toilet and so they feed and pee in the meantime and I change the diaper once wet.

Am I making sense?

I hesitate to say you can get EC wrong, but honestly it seems to me a lot of people approach it the wrong way. As 'early potty learning' instead of just listening to your child. Some things I have seen a lot on EC boards which irk me the wrong way are:

-Sitting the child on the potty for more than 30 seconds (especially if they have signalled they dont need to go)- even if they are happy to do this they dont need to go, this is trying to 'catch' a wee on the potty. Its for you, not for them.

-Feeling bad/guilty/disheartened/like a failure if you dont catch every single wee. EC is not about how much or how little they pee on the toilet. Its about *connection* and needs being met.

-*Constantly* offering the potty to the detriment of everything else. Even when they havent signalled, are getting annoyed/upset by the offering and dont need to go. If its consuming your attention to the exclusion of other important things, like playing







, you've gone to far.

I hope I am explaining this properly. But I find even some ECers seem to have the wrong idea about the purpose of EC.

I expected my newborn to pee often in her nappy. So my expectation was met. If I had expected EC to 'catch' them all, I would have been disappointed.

I expect that as my child grows she learns to trust that I will respond to her signals and therefore signal me more clearly. That expectation is met. If I expected her to learn how to signal perfectly at half hour intervals, and to never be distracted, nor signal when it was impossible for me to take her then I would be disappointed.

I expect that she will let me know when she needs to go and respect her negative signals if I misinterpret a cue. If I expected her to pee just because *I* thought she hadnt in a while and needed to, I would have been disappointed.

But there is no winning and losing in EC as I see it. If I am responding to her needs as quickly and diligently as I can then there's really nothing to get wrong. And there's nothing to be disappointed about because I dont have any false expectations about what EC means. But if there is an end goal for me, or if I see my child weeing in a nappy as a failure, or if I start to place any kind of agenda on my child, then I have deviated from EC and moved into early toilet training. And early toilet training is damaging for the child and your relationship with them. EC is the opposite. It strengthens the bond and brings joy to our relationship.


Checking to see if the baby's diaper needs to be changed when they are crying isn't an EC thing, it's a pretty mainstream technique. Even people who have never heard of EC know to check the diaper first if the baby is crying.


----------



## Logan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
Checking to see if the baby's diaper needs to be changed when they are crying isn't an EC thing, it's a pretty mainstream technique. Even people who have never heard of EC know to check the diaper first if the baby is crying.

What I meant was I wouldnt have known why she was fussing in the first place and would have been trying to placate her instead of acting on it. Then once she wet I may not have known that she was then crying for a different reason as she had now wet.


----------



## Cavy

Must confess that when I first heard of EC (about 10 yrs ago) I thought it sounded completely loopy -- but I'll happily concede now that it may work very well for some people.

I don;t do it because want to be that aware of my baby's bodily functions -- no thanks, I am not that interested. And I have too much else going on, and I don't want to risk the mess.

I don't know anyone irl who does EC or has even tried it. BUT

I used to live in a poor immigrant neighbourhood. My Bangladeshi neighbours were overjoyed to have the luxury of disposable diapers. "Back home" their relatives had to deal with cloth or (for them) very expensive disps, they did EC out of economic necesity as early as possible.

I'm afraid my neighbour Bengali Mums unintentionally did an excellent job of persuading me that EC was too much work!









OTOH, when a child turned 2yo exactly these mothers expected to toilet train overnight -- no patience about it & I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of smacking went on in their potty training.









I find the statement that babes-toddlers don't like being wet a bit amusing. I've known toddlers, even a 5yo, who positively reveled in the familiar comfort of a warm wet nappy.


----------



## BarefootScientist

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cavy* 
I find the statement that babes-toddlers don't like being wet a bit amusing. I've known toddlers, even a 5yo, who positively reveled in the familiar comfort of a warm wet nappy.

Well, the idea is that they do get used to it and that at first they don't like being wet. Every baby is different of course. And especially with sposies I'm sure some babies don't even notice when they are wet because they're really not WET. Even some cloth diapers are hard to tell when they're wet.


----------



## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
What I meant was I wouldnt have known why she was fussing in the first place and would have been trying to placate her instead of acting on it. Then once she wet I may not have known that she was then crying for a different reason as she had now wet.


When I was 13 and babysitting, I took a class and one of the points was when a baby keeps crying, to check their diaper several times, because it might become wet at sometime. Yes, at that point I wouldn't know that the orignal cry was for using the bathroom (neither of my girls have done that, but I guess some do) but as the crying continued, I knew to check several times to see if they were wet. So, I still don't think checking the diaper several times during a crying spell is just an EC thing.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mambera* 
So nothing I've read on the EC forum convinces me that the children themselves generally have a preference other than convenience. (Not to say that *some* children don't prefer it one way or the other - obviously every child has his/her individual preferences - but that the comments in the EC forum don't convince me of a *general tendency* on the part of babies to prefer EC over diapers.)

I'm a big EC proponent, but I'd have to say I mostly tend to agree. I think to a certain extent, babies who use diapers may not mind peeing in them because they've been trained not to mind, but that training generally seems to happen pretty easily and without much unhappiness.

Even so, EC seems like the most baby-and-kid-friendly method to me. Toddlers who are happy peeing and pooping in diapers may NOT be happy about switching to the potty. The transition to pooping in the toilet, particularly, seems to be really difficult for a lot of kids. I think EC can cut down on a lot of the stress that diapered kids and their parents may experience with potty training. It also cuts down on the diaper-changing struggles that seem to be a huge problem for a lot of toddlers and their parents.

Quote:

Actually a lot of the EC moms seemed really frustrated with their EC experiences (perhaps having expected, but not realized, early PL as a reward for their efforts).
I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that most people have no personal experience with EC, no one in real life to give them good advice about it, and very little support for it.

I also think a lot of frustration comes from the expectation that a baby or toddler will prefer not to pee in her pants and will want to signal you when she needs to go. I think that just doesn't happen as much as people would like to believe, and it works best if you just focus on getting pee in the potty instead of on following your baby's lead. Which, interestingly, is sort of the opposite of what Logan is saying. (Now, I'm not saying at all that EC should be about forcing your baby to sit on the potty or anything like that. I see it as ideally very gentle. I just think it works best - if you take "working" to mean getting the least amount of pee and poop on clothes or the floor - if parents take the lead sometimes.)


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## pixiepunk

the vast majority of forums, IME, are places to complain and/or ask for help. if you are trying to understand what EC is about, reading the EC forum really isn't the way to go. go take an 'objective' look at the night time parenting forum - you're not going to find a lot of "we love co-sleeping!" threads, mostly threads of desperation from people exhausted and miserable. if i thought that's what co-sleeping was like for most everyone, no way on earth would i sign up for it. it's the same with the breastfeeding forums - thread upon thread of people having a horrible time - thrush, cracked nipples, toddlers who twiddle nipples and wake you up screaming 10x a night. forget about tandem nursing









if you want to know what EC is actually like, find someone who is actually doing it. No one who has ever spent time with my family has ever done anything but exclaim how wonderful EC is after watching it in action. Interestingly, my mother is a developmental psychologist who at first completely challeneged that EC could work based on all the books she's read that say that babies don't have the awareness or the ability to control their sphincter muscles. after spending a week with my then 2 week old baby, she was infuriated at the misinformation, busily reading my EC books to learn more about the little bit of science that was out there, and and pondering the possibility of doing a study herself on the subject. she now talks about EC in the developmental psychology classes she teaches (as well as natural chidlbirth and extended nursing... i've completely corrupted her







)

if you don't have access to anyone IRL, it might be a good idea to grab a book on the subject. Christine Gross-Loh writes a very approachable, accessible book, and Laurie Boucke and Ingrid Bauer have both written books with lots of interesting historical, anthropological and scientific information included. most larger libraries have them or can get them on loan

as for the awareness/discomfort with being wet... i think people are really missing the point. obviously we all know plenty of toddlers who have been diaper-trained that don't care about being wet. in fact it's quite the unique child that can maintain their awareness and discomfort over that span of time, though there are some that do. but i don't think this is because babies and kids "don't mind being wet.' most people who do CIO/sleep-training with their kids will say "they only cried for a few nights, and it was less each time." i'm sure we've all seen the case studies of children who were completely neglected who don't respond to stimuli at all, don't fuss when they're hungry or tired, don't smile. at some point (which is going to be very quickly with some babies and take much longer with others), babies are just going to shut off that awareness. nothing happens when i say i have to pee, so i'm going to pee in my pants. nothing happens when i say i'm tired, lonely and scared, so i'm just going to go to sleep.


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## Blueone

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
most people who do CIO/sleep-training with their kids will say "they only cried for a few nights, and it was less each time." i'm sure we've all seen the case studies of children who were completely neglected who don't respond to stimuli at all, don't fuss when they're hungry or tired, don't smile. at some point (which is going to be very quickly with some babies and take much longer with others), babies are just going to shut off that awareness. nothing happens when i say i have to pee, so i'm going to pee in my pants. nothing happens when i say i'm tired, lonely and scared, so i'm just going to go to sleep.

How can diapering be compared to CIO? When the child cries and lets us know they are wet we change them. CIO is intentionally letting them cry themselves to sleep. I haven't met a baby yet that will cry when they need to pee unless they have a UTI. Although, I will fully admit I have never met a baby that has been or is being EC'd.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
the vast majority of forums, IME, are places to complain and/or ask for help. if you are trying to understand what EC is about, reading the EC forum really isn't the way to go. go take an 'objective' look at the night time parenting forum - you're not going to find a lot of "we love co-sleeping!" threads, mostly threads of desperation from people exhausted and miserable. if i thought that's what co-sleeping was like for most everyone, no way on earth would i sign up for it. it's the same with the breastfeeding forums - thread upon thread of people having a horrible time - thrush, cracked nipples, toddlers who twiddle nipples and wake you up screaming 10x a night. forget about tandem nursing









if you want to know what EC is actually like, find someone who is actually doing it. No one who has ever spent time with my family has ever done anything but exclaim how wonderful EC is after watching it in action. Interestingly, my mother is a developmental psychologist who at first completely challeneged that EC could work based on all the books she's read that say that babies don't have the awareness or the ability to control their sphincter muscles. after spending a week with my then 2 week old baby, she was infuriated at the misinformation, busily reading my EC books to learn more about the little bit of science that was out there, and and pondering the possibility of doing a study herself on the subject. she now talks about EC in the developmental psychology classes she teaches (as well as natural chidlbirth and extended nursing... i've completely corrupted her







)

if you don't have access to anyone IRL, it might be a good idea to grab a book on the subject. Christine Gross-Loh writes a very approachable, accessible book, and Laurie Boucke and Ingrid Bauer have both written books with lots of interesting historical, anthropological and scientific information included. most larger libraries have them or can get them on loan

as for the awareness/discomfort with being wet... i think people are really missing the point. obviously we all know plenty of toddlers who have been diaper-trained that don't care about being wet. in fact it's quite the unique child that can maintain their awareness and discomfort over that span of time, though there are some that do. but i don't think this is because babies and kids "don't mind being wet.' most people who do CIO/sleep-training with their kids will say "they only cried for a few nights, and it was less each time." i'm sure we've all seen the case studies of children who were completely neglected who don't respond to stimuli at all, don't fuss when they're hungry or tired, don't smile. at some point (which is going to be very quickly with some babies and take much longer with others), babies are just going to shut off that awareness. nothing happens when i say i have to pee, so i'm going to pee in my pants. nothing happens when i say i'm tired, lonely and scared, so i'm just going to go to sleep.

But that isn't true for all babies. I watched dd2 very closely from birth on and she never cried before or after she peed/pooped. The only time she fussed was when I changed her diaper. She never gave any signals like it was claimed she would do.


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## mambera

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk*
at some point (which is going to be very quickly with some babies and take much longer with others), babies are just going to shut off that awareness. nothing happens when i say i have to pee, so i'm going to pee in my pants.

Did you miss the part where these are *EC'ed babies* who don't give signals and don't mind peeing in their pants?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk*
if you want to know what EC is actually like, find someone who is actually doing it.

I know a family who are doing it. They do it by timing, just like lots of the moms on the forum. Signals are not very prominent.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
But that isn't true for all babies. I watched dd2 very closely from birth on and she never cried before or after she peed/pooped. The only time she fussed was when I changed her diaper. She never gave any signals like it was claimed she would do.

Exactly. I had read about EC prior to giving birth and I did and do watch my dd for signals - we do lots of naked time anyway to avert diaper rash. There are NO SIGNALS for pee, nor for sitting in a wet diaper. Maybe if dd had been a signaler we would have gone down the EC road. She isn't, so we didn't (though I have caught a couple of poos in the potty just to get her used to the whole idea).


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## Logan

Not all EC'ed babies cry when they need to go. Some of the signals are very subtle but once you know them they scream out at you. Three of my daughter's most usual ones are
1) she wont make eye contact when Im talking to her
2) she pushes up on me with her legs
3) she squeals (sounds like a happy squeal if you didnt know her, but its actually a sort of frustrated call)

Crying for her, would be the last resort. If I had missed all other signals. I only know these subtle clues because I have listened to her from day one and she knows that I understand these. I didnt learn them by sitting there staring at her for cues. These were simply the ones she did that I knew to respond to and in responding she learnt that she could communicate it to me with those particular cues. If I hadnt noticed or responded to those things then she would have found other cues to tell me. If I hadnt responded at all she would have probably given up.

I dont think the way to learn the signals is to watch your baby like a hawk for any change, I think its just to know you baby really well, keep them close and learn from their response to you. The only time my daughter wets now is if she is down on the floor out of my arms. She has a strong instinct not to wet on me, and I have heard this is true for a lot of ECed babies. Also when she is in my arms I cant miss her obvious signals. Its hard for her to push up on me or for me to notice she is not making eye contact if Im not even there


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Not all EC'ed babies cry when they need to go. Some of the signals are very subtle but once you know them they scream out at you. Three of my daughter's most usual ones are
1) she wont make eye contact when Im talking to her
2) she pushes up on me with her legs
3) she squeals (sounds like a happy squeal if you didnt know her, but its actually a sort of frustrated call)

Crying for her, would be the last resort. If I had missed all other signals. I only know these subtle clues because I have listened to her from day one and she knows that I understand these. I didnt learn them by sitting there staring at her for cues. These were simply the ones she did that I knew to respond to and in responding she learnt that she could communicate it to me with those particular cues. If I hadnt noticed or responded to those things then she would have found other cues to tell me. If I hadnt responded at all she would have probably given up.

I dont think the way to learn the signals is to watch your baby like a hawk for any change, I think its just to know you baby really well, keep them close and learn from their response to you. The only time my daughter wets now is if she is down on the floor out of my arms. She has a strong instinct not to wet on me, and I have heard this is true for a lot of ECed babies. Also when she is in my arms I cant miss her obvious signals. Its hard for her to push up on me or for me to notice she is not making eye contact if Im not even there









I know that crying isn't always a cue, but I kept a journal trying to see if there was any indication from her that she needed to potty. Nothing. Not a sqeak, head turn, eye avoidance, eye look, squirm, leg push, twist. NOTHING. I responded to her every little subtle twitch to see if she needed to potty, but no, at potty time she didn't give any indication.

I take offence at the idea that I didn't know my baby well, I listened, but she wasn't saying anything. And apparently she didn't get the don't pee on your mother instinct.


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## Logan

I wasnt directing that at you, and I wasnt saying that anyone doesnt know their baby well. I was simply saying that I find the easiest way (for me) to read signals is to carry them, listen to them, and spend time getting to know them- not to watch them obsessively for signals like people have been suggesting all ECers do. Nothing I said was directed at any particular member, nor a judgement of their relationship with their baby. So you have no need to be offended.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Not all EC'ed babies cry when they need to go. Some of the signals are very subtle but once you know them they scream out at you. Three of my daughter's most usual ones are
1) she wont make eye contact when Im talking to her
2) she pushes up on me with her legs
3) she squeals (sounds like a happy squeal if you didnt know her, but its actually a sort of frustrated call)

Crying for her, would be the last resort. If I had missed all other signals. I only know these subtle clues because I have listened to her from day one and she knows that I understand these. I didnt learn them by sitting there staring at her for cues. These were simply the ones she did that I knew to respond to and in responding she learnt that she could communicate it to me with those particular cues. If I hadnt noticed or responded to those things then she would have found other cues to tell me. If I hadnt responded at all she would have probably given up.

I dont think the way to learn the signals is to watch your baby like a hawk for any change, I think its just to know you baby really well, keep them close and learn from their response to you. The only time my daughter wets now is if she is down on the floor out of my arms. She has a strong instinct not to wet on me, and I have heard this is true for a lot of ECed babies. Also when she is in my arms I cant miss her obvious signals. Its hard for her to push up on me or for me to notice she is not making eye contact if Im not even there









I didn't mean to imply that all babies cried. mine never cried unless we were in the car and i couldn't see the earlier, more subtle signals and it escalated to annoyance. i think i didn't express myself very well. what i meant was that signals that are not responded to usually go away, often very quickly. this is true with CIO and it is true with elimination and pretty much all communication that babies do. do all babies signal? i have no idea. all the ones i've ever given birth to or met once i knew what to look for did. but that is hardly scientific. it's just my experience, which is all i can speak to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
I wasnt directing that at you, and I wasnt saying that anyone doesnt know their baby well. I was simply saying that *I find the easiest way (for me) to read signals is to carry them, listen to them, and spend time getting to know them- not to watch them obsessively for signals like people have been suggesting all ECers do*. Nothing I said was directed at any particular member, nor a judgement of their relationship with their baby. So you have no need to be offended.

yes, this. that is what i was trying to express in an earlier post of mine. i don't watch my baby obsessively for signs she has to pee anymore than i watch her obsessively for signs she wants to nurse or is tired. it's really pretty insulting to assume that anyone would spend their day staring at their child's bottom waiting to leap and run them off to the toilet. every person i've ever met knows their baby's hungry sign, and how it differs from their sleepy sign or their "i want to be held" sign. some babies makes a big fuss, some don't. IME it is the same with needing to potty. I don't know about others' experiences because i'm not someone else. all i know is how my own children acted as infants, and that my older two, who i didn't start EC with until they were older infants, were more of a challenge to EC because they had been diapered and had largely lost that awareness, and it took a while for them to get it back. my oldest daughter got it back more so than my son. they are different kids. looking back i know they did signal to me when they were small infants, i just didn't know at the time what they were trying to tell me.


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## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
I know that crying isn't always a cue, but I kept a journal trying to see if there was any indication from her that she needed to potty. Nothing. Not a sqeak, head turn, eye avoidance, eye look, squirm, leg push, twist. NOTHING. I responded to her every little subtle twitch to see if she needed to potty, but no, at potty time she didn't give any indication.

I felt the same way too. I did have the benefit of a local support group as well as an online forum. When I felt like that with my son I did try timing and using a diaper. I guess I wasn't expecting that every child signaled every time or often, but that a system would eventually develop between us? I didn't find it discouraging when I missed signals or didn't get any (especially since I had support and ideas to try from friends that had ec experience).
However, each day I didn't wake up and 'think' about an ec'ing plan.... It just kind of happened- or even sometimes I didn't 'actively' ec that day (the only difference is after I checked a diaper I would offer him the potty).
My son rarely signaled. I kept a diary and watched him for a while (one of the suggestions)... then threw that idea out the window because it was too stressful and caused me to 'miss' everything. I was frustrated by the idea of 'watching' all the time but I also am not as intuitive as I wish. I mean, it is not just peeing signs that I missed with him, but nursing cues, sleep cues, everything. I just tried, as I did with breastfeeding, different things till they worked, then something would change and we'd try new things. Like for breastfeeding, there were times early one when I just nursed by the clock (starting after a certain amount of time) because I was missing his cues and we had so many problems latching that I was trying to get him before he was frantically hungry. I've always wished I was one of the moms that recognized the 'sleepy cry', 'hungry cry', and 'diaper wet' cries of their babies. But I'm not.

Quote:

I take offence at the idea that I didn't know my baby well, I listened, but she wasn't saying anything.
I don't think that was what was meant. I'm not one that believes that ec is right for everyone. And I think if someone has a certain expectation and it is not met and it is frustrating then you either need to change your expectations or find a way to do (or don't do) it that works for you.
I don't agree with the expectation that she would necessarily signal for you- because that wasn't my experience either. But I was with other ec'ing moms and they caught signals from him that I would totally miss and try to point them out or suggest ideas. I guess I felt like I had alternatives to work with and that eventually we would develop a system.

Quote:

And apparently she didn't get the don't pee on your mother instinct.
LOL, mine didn't either(-; Every time I got peed on I tried to laugh about it and remember one of the stories in the book. I actually didn't get peed on that much- which is VERY surprising considering that I was the weakest link so to speak. While Ec'ing is a changing process it really was quite clear to me how it did work for my two even though I was clearly the one holding them back at times.

Jessica


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mambera* 
Exactly. I had read about EC prior to giving birth and I did and do watch my dd for signals - we do lots of naked time anyway to avert diaper rash. There are NO SIGNALS for pee, nor for sitting in a wet diaper. Maybe if dd had been a signaler we would have gone down the EC road. She isn't, so we didn't (though *I have caught a couple of poos in the potty* just to get her used to the whole idea).

i'm very curious - how did you 'catch' those poos? i'm guessing she consistently poops at a certain time of day?


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## DevaMajka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
... but I also am not as intuitive as I wish. I mean, it is not just peeing signs that I missed with him, but nursing cues, sleep cues, everything. I just tried, as I did with breastfeeding, different things till they worked, then something would change and we'd try new things. Like for breastfeeding, there were times early one when I just nursed by the clock (starting after a certain amount of time) because I was missing his cues and we had so many problems latching that I was trying to get him before he was frantically hungry. I've always wished I was one of the moms that recognized the 'sleepy cry', 'hungry cry', and 'diaper wet' cries of their babies. But I'm not.

Me too! I'm totally not in tune like that. I often just go through the list- hungry? tired? wet? But I don't know the subtle signals very well. I'm better with ds2 than I was with ds1 though. (poor ds1! lol)
I'm trying hard to follow my "instincts" this time, like if I just have the urge to potty him (or nurse, etc). I don't know if I'm right, but I figure there's a chance my subconscious knows something I don't.


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## mambera

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
i'm very curious - how did you 'catch' those poos? i'm guessing she consistently poops at a certain time of day?

She does have some cues for pooing (not peeing though, at least that I could ever detect); but mostly it was a matter of putting her on the pot right after lunch.


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## emmaegbert

wow, this is a weird thread to me- kind of more argumentative than I would have expected. To me there is actually no contradiction between diapering and EC, you can do both, and there is a big continuum between diapers and diaper free. And, almost everyone is EVENTUALLY diaper free.

I didn't "EC" with my first b/c I'd never really heard of it and what I heard sounded weird and I didn't know anyone IRL who did it. He had lots of nakey time, hated being in a dirty diaper, and started pooping in a potty around 15m (obviously I took the opportunity and offered one) and he stopped pooping in diapers by 18m. Stopped peeing in diapers- with help from adults- around 22m. Still pees at night frequently (5yo). SO, I don't think "EC" would have made him PL much earlier.

BUT, when I had my second, by then I'd kinda heard of it, checked a book out of the library and gave it a go. It just made sense, and it "works" in that the first time I sat her on a little potty (2 1/2 m), right away she peed. I was surprised!! I'm not hard core about it. She wears diapers for sure if we're out of the house, and often a coverless fitted inside. And yes, occasionally I find myself getting judgemental on myself about it (why am I missing pees, etc). And those might be the times I post for support/ideas on the EC board. But I think most of us parents get like that from time to time about many issues (discipline, sleep, etc).

Most of the time its a.o.k., DD likes sitting and playing on the potty, she has a LOT fewer wet diapers and almost no poopy diapers. Maybe its TMI but we're an "if its yellow let it mellow" sort of family so I think that we do use somewhat less water (and money, we use a shared coin laundry), because I probably go an extra day or 2 before I need to do a diaper wash compared w/ DS.

and WOW I don't think I'm judgmental on other people about not trying EC or whatever. I'm actually more afraid of people thinking I am weird for pottying a 7mo baby.


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## EviesMom

Well... to be completely honest, with the first child, I a) didn't know about it and b) worked out of the home.

With the second child, I a) worked out of the home sometimes, but could have done it part-time; b) PPD; c) did NOT want to be affiliated with ECers who basically shut down a cd board I used to frequent by responding constantly and incessantly to every cd problem with "why do you cd? you should EC instead because ECers are the blessed stewards of the Earth," etc.

We CD with the first for 2 1/2 years, and then cloth trainers and a few disposable pull ups at preschool until she was very reliable at about 3. She had no trauma PL, but I didn't push it at all. She wanted to sit on the potty, she did. She wanted not to sit there, she didn't. She wanted to get stickers like her friend did (thankfully she didn't know her friend got M and Ms too!), we bought stickers and I asked her after pottying if she thought she should get a sticker that time or not. I don't think she ever understood that her friend was getting them as a reward, she thought it was just part of the kids-going-potty routine I guess. She outgrew it.

We CDed the second until about 18 months, when he was peeing through the pockets and work schedules were getting frantic, so we switched to disposables until just recently (6 months or so). I've just gotten back to CDing-prefolds and wool. He likes to sit on the potty now, and make pooping grunts, but he's only pooped there once. It's fine, he'll learn eventually.

I wash and dry in an all-in-one washer, and frankly, considering that I live in about 1/2 the space of an average size home on MDC and 1/3 the size of the average American home; don't own a car, I think I do just fine by mother Earth.

Literally 2 kids, cloth and disposables, and good changing habits and luck, and I've had about 4 diaper rashes total between the 2, only the yeast rash DD got once--reaction to a medicine she needed--lasted more than a few days.

Oh yes, and I do know people IRL, 3 families, who EC. It works for them, and they aren't self-righteous about it; they don't seem fussed that I don't do it.


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## superfastreader

I have a bunch of friends IRL who EC and it's been great for them. I tried it with DD starting at 4mo and we had a lot of fun with it until she went on a potty strike around 11mo. I kept trying with her, but gave up completely (put the potty away) around 14mo when I realized that I was pushing her and that she was pushing back and that we were both miserable. Once I put the potty away things brightened for us. I am trusting that the early EC that we did will help when she's ready for potty learning.

The real reason I posted was because I can't stop thinking about why the comparison with breastfeeding is troublesome to me. The reason is that no child is ever going to die because his family chose to put him in diapers over ECing. Yet children do die (even in affluent countries) because their parents chose to formula feed. Elimination communication is a lifestyle choice, not something that can mean life or death for your child. You may believe it to be a superior lifestyle choice--and I imagine that you do, otherwise why would you do it?--but you cannot argue that it's a choice that others *need* to make for public health reasons. It's like vegan vs. TF, or tv-free vs. radical unschooling, to name 2 examples of competing lifestyle choices. Both sides can argue that their way is best--or at the very least, best for their families--but both sides are equally welcomed in AP/NFL circles.

The AP "opposite" to EC is what I imagine most diapering families on this board do--potty "learning" not training, where the child is respected and not pushed or punished. This may mean late PL'ing. In the case of my family, continuing to EC meant sacrificing my bond with my daughter in the name of an ideal, and that's not AP to me.

Back to breastfeeding. Use of formula has been definitively linked with increased infant mortality, childhood disease, compromised nutrition, and increased risk of breast cancer for women with a family history. Can any of these things be said about diapering, cloth or otherwise? I recently read a tragic story, about a mother trapped on the roof of her house during a flood with her brand new baby. Her baby died because they ran out of formula before help came. As if this weren't heartbreaking enough, after her rescue she asked if there was anything that could be done about the milk that was still leaking from her breasts. Neither this mother nor anyone trapped with her knew how to nurse the baby, who would surely still be alive if she had put him to her breast. That example is indicative of the dangers inherent in a culture where formula feeding is the norm. And that's why the comparison is offensive.


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## pixiepunk

I want to be sure that people realize that signaling/cuing does NOT = crying. yes, sometimes a child whose cues are regularly responded to will cry if their initial signal is not noticed (mine always did in the car when i couldn't see her more subtle cues). and of course some babies cry when they're wet but by that is a cry of discomfort, not of impending elimination, and as we've established, not all babies do that. for the most part babies don't start bawling when they have to pee anymore than they do when they first let you know they need to nurse or first start showing signs that they are sleepy. and just like those other biological needs, if those needs are normally attended to and subtle signals are being ignored, it might escalate to crying. but typically crying is not involved.

signals depend on the age and developmental stage of the baby, as well as the individual baby (some are more obvious/blatant than others). some signs that your tiny baby might need to potty:
- previously content and relaxed baby begins to squirm, or kick legs (this is often most apparent when you are wearing baby)
- previously content and relaxed baby suddenly seems mildly fussy and/or uncomfortable
- active baby suddenly becomes very still
- baby makes very direct eye contact or otherwise attempts to get caregiver's attention (mine would sometimes kick me in the stomach as i typed at the computer







)
- passing gas is also a sign, though of course it's not them trying to tell you, just an obvious heads-up that poo (and usually a pee as well) is not far behind.

i know there are others, but these were ones that leap to mind because they are all ones i saw my small babies do. obviously as they get older and more mobile that changes, and most babies who are diaper-trained lose that awareness by the time they are mobile and stop signaling at all. some stop signaling within days or weeks of birth. again, very much dependent on the individual child.

Some signs that babies are aware that they are about to go include the previous list, but below are also some situations/signs that are easily mistaken by the caregiver (they certainly were by me with my 1st before i started EC'ing) and a baby's preference not to soil him/herself.
- baby pops on and off the breast for a while, only to relax and nurse just fine (had to pee, couldn't concentrate. finally peed, was then able to relax and nurse)
- baby wakes up "to nurse" only to fall asleep after just briefly sucking (had to pee, it woke baby up. sucking helped baby relax enough to pee, once pee is done they fall asleep because they weren't waking due to hunger)
- baby squirms suddenly in a sling/carrier, only to settle down shortly thereafter (again... had to pee, didn't want to do it on self/mom, so squirmed. gave up, peed, was able to relax again)
- baby pees the second you take off the diaper (finally! i can pee somewhere besides this diaper against my skin!)
- baby pees as soon as a fresh diaper is on (babies often stop themselves mid-pee and even mid-poo when they feel themselves getting wet/soiled. once they are dry again, they are comfortable enough to finish)
- baby tries to remove the diaper or tugs at other clothing, you check and they are dry, but shortly thereafter discover they are wet. (they are trying to remove diaper to eliminate away from body, can't, so they use diaper)

again there are lots more - perhaps other EC'ers can add the ones they have noticed or recall reading about.


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## pixiepunk

also, NOBODY here has even come close to expressing that EC and breastfeeding are of equal importance. in fact if you ever read the EC boards, new mamas are always encouraged to heal from birth and get breastfeeding firmly established and make sure they are getting enough sleep and such before they worry about EC.

what HAS been said is that EC is like breastfeeding in that people have lots of misconceptions about what it actually entails, and that people who have help and support and know others who are doing it are much more likely to try it and much more likely to stick with it. when it is a normal part of your societal structure and you've been around it all your life, it seems like much less of a big deal than if it's totally foreign and you're trying to learn all you need to know about it from books and the internet with no real-life support. EC is like the part of breastfeeding that is a parenting tool - one additional way of responding to your child when they tell you they need you, and a way to enhance your closeness and deepen your bond. elimination is like hunger in that it is a basic biological occurrence, and one that babies are aware of from birth. I frankly can't understand why any of that is so contentious.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
also, NOBODY here has even come close to expressing that EC and breastfeeding are of equal importance. in fact if you ever read the EC boards, new mamas are always encouraged to heal from birth and get breastfeeding firmly established and make sure they are getting enough sleep and such before they worry about EC.

what HAS been said is that EC is like breastfeeding in that people have lots of misconceptions about what it actually entails, and that people who have help and support and know others who are doing it are much more likely to try it and much more likely to stick with it. when it is a normal part of your societal structure and you've been around it all your life, it seems like much less of a big deal than if it's totally foreign and you're trying to learn all you need to know about it from books and the internet with no real-life support. EC is like the part of breastfeeding that is a parenting tool - one additional way of responding to your child when they tell you they need you, and a way to enhance your closeness and deepen your bond. elimination is like hunger in that it is a basic biological occurrence, and one that babies are aware of from birth. I frankly can't understand why any of that is so contentious.

What I disagree with is that all babies give signals. Mine didn't, and every time I say that I just get told that I must have missed the signal somehow. She would pee on me from birth without even giving a budge, no movement, twitch, eye look, nothing.


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## GISDiva

To answer the original question:

1. Because I work full-time and day-care would have looked at me like I had two heads. I was lucky enough that they happily accepted my cloth diapers.

2. Because I EP'ed with low-supply for 10.5 months. I didn't need more on my plate. (Apparently my LO is doomed, he was one of those babies who had no interest in nursing when he was born.







)

3. Because he's yet another kid who could care less if his diaper is wet or poopy, but will scream bloody murder when we need to change him. And no, no cues that I could ever tell. If I had tried it, I probably would have "failed" and I didn't need to feel like I failed yet again after BF'ing didn't work out so well for us.

I'm glad it works for some...


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
What I disagree with is that all babies give signals. Mine didn't, and every time I say that I just get told that I must have missed the signal somehow. She would pee on me from birth without even giving a budge, no movement, twitch, eye look, nothing.

what i actually said was that all babies have an awareness. not that they all clearly signal. being aware of something, and making it obvious to those around you aren't the same thing. do people believe that biologically normal babies have no idea that they are about to urinate or defacate at all? that they have no awareness of what is going on in that part of their body, though they seem to be aware of everything else that their bodies need to do?


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## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
what i actually said was that all babies have an awareness. not that they all clearly signal. being aware of something, and making it obvious to those around you aren't the same thing. do people believe that biologically normal babies have no idea that they are about to urinate or defacate at all? that they have no awareness of what is going on in that part of their body, though they seem to be aware of everything else that their bodies need to do?

*raises hand*

Sorry, that's what the science suggests to me. It's a long road to localizing sensations, which ends at about 18 months when they can finally pinpoint where they're feeling a certain sensation down to the . That's why a baby crying and tugging on his ear is as much a sign that he might have an ear infection as that he might be teething, or it could even mean he just hurt his foot somehow. He just knows that he's in pain.

Now, I don't think needing to pee is painful, obviously, but pinpointing sensations in your body is all part of the same brain development. Individual babies may have some specific reflexes which their parents notice when they evacuate, but that doesn't indicate to me that the baby necessarily has any idea what it's doing.


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## Drummer's Wife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
*raises hand*

Sorry, that's what the science suggests to me. It's a long road to localizing sensations, which ends at about 18 months when they can finally pinpoint where they're feeling a certain sensation down to the . That's why a baby crying and tugging on his ear is as much a sign that he might have an ear infection as that he might be teething, or it could even mean he just hurt his foot somehow. He just knows that he's in pain.

Now, I don't think needing to pee is painful, obviously, but pinpointing sensations in your body is all part of the same brain development. Individual babies may have some specific reflexes which their parents notice when they evacuate, but that doesn't indicate to me that the baby necessarily has any idea what it's doing.

In my child development courses, as well as Montessori infancy training we learned that 18 mos was when they had the ability to hold their urine/bowels. But before that, not only is it involuntary, but they don't know it's coming ahead of time. Now, in Montessori, it's advocated to use cloth underwear from birth (or, in practice - from 2 months as it's when they started daycare at my Montessori school). The underwear helps make that connection that after they feel themselves release, they then feel wetness/soiled and this helps their understanding and later control of this bodily function.

While I have never EC'd - I do find it hard to believe that young infants can not only purposely signal they are about to urinate/have a BM, but that they can hold it until they are placed over a pot/toilet/sink. This is why I have always thought it was more about the parents training themselves to 'catch' a pee or poo -- but since I have never actually tried it, I guess I'll just have to trust that some babies do indeed signal/hold -otherwise there wouldn't be all these successful EC'ers, right?

Regardless, it's still not anything I have any amount of interest in doing (for reason's already explained) and I still am 100% certain that I am not doing my LO's a disservice by not giving it a try. To each their own.


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## Logan

Babies absolutely can hold it. Sometimes for very long times if the desire not to soil themselves is big enough.

And as for the reason that they cry when changed- thats why I started EC! My DS as a newborn used to scream bloody murder when he needed a poppy diaper changed. So at 3 weeks I finally started EC, he went the first time I held him on the toilet and he actually smiled up at me. He never again cried with a poopy diaper. But then again, Id cry too if I had to wear diapers and wet myself....


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## Limabean1975

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Babies absolutely can hold it. Sometimes for very long times if the desire not to soil themselves is big enough.

My goodness, yes. You only have to observe one EC'd baby in action to be absolutely sure, babies can and do "hold it."


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Babies absolutely can hold it. Sometimes for very long times if the desire not to soil themselves is big enough.

And as for the reason that they cry when changed- thats why I started EC! My DS as a newborn used to scream bloody murder when he needed a poppy diaper changed. So at 3 weeks I finally started EC, he went the first time I held him on the toilet and he actually smiled up at me. He never again cried with a poopy diaper. But then again, Id cry too if I had to wear diapers and wet myself....


My girls weren't crying because they were wearing diapers and wetting themselves, that part didn't bother them at all. It was the getting undressed part that freaked them out.


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## pixiepunk

it is likely true of diaper-trained babies (the only ones they've ever studied) but as pp's have said, anyone who's spent any time whatsoever with an EC'd baby knows that babies absolutely can and do hold it, and intentionally release when the appropriate location just as any adult would. my youngest daughter, who is the only one i EC'd as a newborn, was able to do that reliably by the time she was 4 months old. and by 13 months she was reliably telling me about 98% of the time that she needed to go (pee and poo).


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## Drummer's Wife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
*it is likely true of diaper-trained babies (the only ones they've ever studied)* but as pp's have said, anyone who's spent any time whatsoever with an EC'd baby knows that babies absolutely can and do hold it, and intentionally release when the appropriate location just as any adult would. my youngest daughter, who is the only one i EC'd as a newborn, was able to do that reliably by the time she was 4 months old. and by 13 months she was reliably telling me about 98% of the time that she needed to go (pee and poo).

ahh, good point.

I was just mentioning that b/c many people, including child development experts and peds - simply don't believe babies are capable of that type of control (physically) until they are a bit older.


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## Funny Face

Subbing.


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## Logan

Also remember, in our parents day babies were fully expected and able to be trained by 12-18 months. NOW, however, the studies say sphincter control doesnt even begin to develop until 3 years. Guess who funded most of the studies which say this? Yep, disposable diaper companies. Wonder where their loyalty lies...?

I see more and more parents beginning toilet training as late as 4 years. I dont see that as inability of the child to recognize their own body signals (unless there is an underlying disorder or disability of course). I see that as convenience for the parent. Once you've 'trained' them to sleep through the night wet/weeing its very hard to 'untrain' it. A family I nannyed for flat out told me that they just couldnt be bothered getting up at night to take their boys (then 3 and a half and four and a half) to the toilet.

Toilet training is really getting off the subject, but honestly babies know when they need to go. Most parents can tell when their child is pooping! - especially after solids. So why not just hold them over the toilet? It doesnt make sense to me to watch them going and ignore it.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Also remember, in our parents day babies were fully expected and able to be trained by 12-18 months. NOW, however, the studies say sphincter control doesnt even begin to develop until 3 years. Guess who funded most of the studies which say this? Yep, disposable diaper companies. Wonder where their loyalty lies...?

I see more and more parents beginning toilet training as late as 4 years. I dont see that as inability of the child to recognize their own body signals (unless there is an underlying disorder or disability of course). I see that as convenience for the parent. Once you've 'trained' them to sleep through the night wet/weeing its very hard to 'untrain' it. A family I nannyed for flat out told me that they just couldnt be bothered getting up at night to take their boys (then 3 and a half and four and a half) to the toilet.

Toilet training is really getting off the subject, but honestly babies know when they need to go. Most parents can tell when their child is pooping! - especially after solids. So why not just hold them over the toilet? It doesnt make sense to me to watch them going and ignore it.

There are pictures of my mom at the age of three running around in training pants. She's in her mid-50's. My grandma has talked about helping potty train her siblings when they were able to talk. When I was trying EC I talked to my grandma and great-aunts about what they did and they didn't practice any form of EC. They thought I was crazy. What they did talk about was the flat diapers that they washed in ringer washers and hung dry and trying to get their kids to potty train so they wouldn't have to wash them anymore. But nobody fully expected their one year old to be potty trained.


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## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
Also remember, in our parents day babies were fully expected and able to be trained by 12-18 months. NOW, however, the studies say sphincter control doesnt even begin to develop until 3 years. Guess who funded most of the studies which say this? Yep, disposable diaper companies. Wonder where their loyalty lies...?

I know what you're referring to, but I think you might be a bit confused. No one says that sphincter control doesn't begin to develop until 3 years. Research shows that it's about 18 months. In the days when people claimed to have potty trained children at a year, that mainly involved strapping babies onto potty chairs and keeping them there until they went, and then punishing them if they went at other times.

The Proctor and Gamble study that you're referring to showed that training was easier when kids are "ready" and parents should wait until then.

I was potty trained a bit before 3, and my sister at 2.5 but she was a younger child and my mother said it's usually easier to train younger children because they want to be like their older siblings. She said between 2.5 and 3 was normal for all her friends with girls, and more like 3 was normal for the boys in my playgroup. I definitely think that people train later now, but it's more like 3-3.5 being the norm, instead of 2.5-3. I believe that Dr. Spock in the 1950's said it wasn't worth trying before 2 years.


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## katiesk

i feel compelled to share my experience with ec. i think it's really easy and fun and interesting, and worthwhile, but i have had a very positive experience that required not much effort on my part. of course i love it!

right after dd was born i began to intentionally observe her pottying...after about a month or so i really knew when she was going to have to pee or poo. i bought her a baby bjorn little potty and started sitting her on it first thing in the morning as she would wake up dry, but then pee tons within seconds of opening her eyes. i think she quickly began to associate sitting on cold hard plastic with peeing, and i went by timing after the first morning pee, because i really did not observe any cues until she was much older and was intentionally giving me cues. (like grabbing her crotch!) the timing part was easy, and there were not many times that i offered her the potty that she did not need to use it. i was intentionally not being hypervigilant though, realizing that hypervigilance complicates things and leads to frustration on my part (and probably dd's). anyway, she was about four or five months old when she was mostly dry during the day and would wake up at night and cry when she had to pee. i would let her sit on the potty and pee and she would go right back to sleep. i quit diapering her at night at about six months because it was a pain to take a dry diaper on and off just to let her pee in the toilet anyway. and...we have probably had about two bedtime accidents since then. i work overnight shifts at a domestic violence shelter and bring dd with me so i got an extra potty to keep there...my coworkers alternately thought i was crazy and very cool. i used to hate talking to people about ec though, because they really thought i was weird and would often tell me that i was wrong. it did not work. even though i was explaining to them how exactly it did work for dd! and yes, i agree that it was mostly on me...if i did not get to dd in time, she would not wait forever to use the toilet, she would go in her pants (as would anyone if they did not have the ability to take themself) but i was often surprised at how long she would seem to hold it and then go tons in the toilet. by nine months she was only wearing a diaper if we were out and about for long periods of time and i did not know that i would be able to offer her a toilet. by 10-11 months she was totally out of diapers and i realized that i had only spent about $100 on diapers for dd for her entire diapering time! (prefolds and used wool covers)

since then she has an accident occasionally (like once a month) but not surprisingly. it's usually when she is really busy doing something fun and does not want to stop. but when she starts to dribble in her pants, she usually starts to hold it then and finish in the toilet.

i think ec was so easy for me for various reasons...for one, i did not hesitate to let her pee outside if necessary, i just hold her over the ground and she goes. but i live in a place where thats not really too weird...it's not like we are ever in the mall parking lot peeing outside the door or something. i mean, there is no mall...but really, it's not too socially unacceptable to pee outside. especially if you're a tiny kid.

i spend all of my time with dd. we are pretty busy and go lots of places, work, library, friends houses, walks, restaurants, coffee shops, music events, etc...so i don't think that for me being active and out of the home alot meant that ec would not work, but i don't know that it would have so quickly become dd's routine if we were not doing it so regularly. and dp did ec with her too. he was a little skeptical at first, and had some apprehension about the possibility of pee and poop all over our house, but that was clearly not the reality for us. he was super pumped about the reality of pee and poop in the toilet.

i think it makes sense for environmental reasons...i did very little diaper laundry. but thats not my main incentive for doing ec. my main incentive was that it sounded interesting, it made sense to me, and it worked super well and it was easy! so why wouldn't i do it, you know? but i really get that it is not going to look exactly like that for everyone else. and it KILLS me when i hear other parents say to their kids "hey look, this little girl is already potty trained and she is just a baby! why can't you do it, you're already 3" or whatever...thats so not the point for me. i mean, it was an early result, but i did not begin ec thinking that my baby would be essentially potty trained by ten months.

anyway, i think that there are some misconceptions in this thread. ec does not have to mean that you chase your kid around all day with a toilet or every 45 minutes have a potty break, or stare at them non stop trying to observe "cues" or if you ever want to leave the house you can't ec properly, or you'll just be cleaning up pee off of the floor instead of in a diaper...maybe it will work that way off and on or more consistently for some people...but it doesn't really make sense to do any of those things. that does sound crazy!

this is a terribly long post.

the point is, i think it is important to stay open minded. if it works for some great, if it does not for others, great. ec is a good idea in theory, and even specifically for some, but not necessarily everyone.


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## paulamc

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
This. I think it's totally gimmicky. It's a modern day "noble savage" myth, and that has always squicked me out (I wrote my thesis partly on the history of noble savage mythology in American popular culture). I don't believe for a second that anyone in rural China or wherever it is that EC is supposed to be emulating wouldn't jump at the chance to use disposable diapers, if it were offered.

I lived in China for several years. EC is the norm both in the rural areas and in the largest cities. Disposal diapers are available, but most people choose to EC nonetheless. I have several Chinese friends who now live in the US and they EC their babies here.

I would say in many cases people of other cultures continue their customs because it's what they feel is right, not just because the western alternative hasn't come around yet. I read somewhere, maybe Sears, about how someone in a country where cosleeping is the norm, when asked about it, asked the interviewer "Is it really true that American mothers put their babies in a cage at night?" I'd bet that many Chinese who EC their babies probably feel similarly about the western practice of training babies to poop and pee in a diaper.


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## Tjej

I EC'd my second quite consistently from about 1-2wks old (and had done a little with my DD before, but she was not "potty-trained" by the time DS came around). It is AMAZING what those little babies can be saying about peeing/pooping. My son was a very strong signal/cue-er, so that was helpful (but it is also hard when we did things like longer car-rides and we'd either have to ignore his signals or stop more often than we'd like).

Anyway, I am really glad we chose to try EC (we did diaper backup for a long time, straight undies by 15 months or so?). I do, however, think that it is more "work" than conventional diapering. People do not generally change a baby the instant they pee. Also, my DH was pretty clear that he felt it was more "work" to EC with our son - but he is really glad now that there is no potty struggle with an independent-minded toddler. I personally think that there is a bit more "work" up front with EC, but that in the end it is easier.

When people talk about babies not feeling or being able to control their sphincters, though, I'm sorry but they can. They don't just dribble pee all day. They don't leak poop all day. The sphincters open and close. And the idea that babies don't know any better than to go in a diaper- animals will do what they can to avoid being in their own refuse from a very young age - why would human babies be any less capable of that desire?

I think the EC board here reflects issues of 1)people post when they are frazzled 2)once your child is graduated you often don't bother to go on the board 3)a lot of first time moms (or first time ECing with no support network).

A helpful video is "Potty Whispering" - I think it gives a "hands on" view for people and it "normalizes" it.

ECing has been really good for our family and I have really been glad of it. I do not think it is for everyone, though. Our culture is not set up for EC. There are a lot of places where it isn't okay to be pottying a child, and there are a lot of things (like car-rides) that we do which make it more difficult.

Tjej


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## Pookietooth

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 

signals depend on the age and developmental stage of the baby, as well as the individual baby (some are more obvious/blatant than others). some signs that your tiny baby might need to potty:
- previously content and relaxed baby begins to squirm, or kick legs (this is often most apparent when you are wearing baby)
- previously content and relaxed baby suddenly seems mildly fussy and/or uncomfortable
- active baby suddenly becomes very still
- baby makes very direct eye contact or otherwise attempts to get caregiver's attention (mine would sometimes kick me in the stomach as i typed at the computer







)
- passing gas is also a sign, though of course it's not them trying to tell you, just an obvious heads-up that poo (and usually a pee as well) is not far behind.

- baby wakes up "to nurse" only to fall asleep after just briefly sucking (had to pee, it woke baby up. sucking helped baby relax enough to pee, once pee is done they fall asleep because they weren't waking due to hunger)
- baby squirms suddenly in a sling/carrier, only to settle down shortly thereafter (again... had to pee, didn't want to do it on self/mom, so squirmed. gave up, peed, was able to relax again)
- baby pees the second you take off the diaper (finally! i can pee somewhere besides this diaper against my skin!)
- baby pees as soon as a fresh diaper is on (babies often stop themselves mid-pee and even mid-poo when they feel themselves getting wet/soiled. once they are dry again, they are comfortable enough to finish)
- baby tries to remove the diaper or tugs at other clothing, you check and they are dry, but shortly thereafter discover they are wet. (they are trying to remove diaper to eliminate away from body, can't, so they use diaper)

again there are lots more - perhaps other EC'ers can add the ones they have noticed or recall reading about.

OK, so I think I recognize these signs, but then how do you get them to pee/poo? And isn't getting up at night a hassle? Also, dd cries after she pees when she's lying naked. I have a friend who ec'd her son and he ended up with chronic constipation. He would cry on the potty as an infant. Turned me off to EC. However I have another friend whose dd was in sposies and she still wets herself at 6!


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## Ambystoma

DISCLAIMER: I don't really know much about whether all infants are aware etc of their need to urinate/defecate or if they all "cue", or whatever, so I'm not really commenting on that. I also don't know lots about EC, so I'm not really commenting on that either-- I just wanted to address some physiological issues.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
When people talk about babies not feeling or being able to control their sphincters, though, I'm sorry but they can. They don't just dribble pee all day. They don't leak poop all day. The sphincters open and close. And the idea that babies don't know any better than to go in a diaper- animals will do what they can to avoid being in their own refuse from a very young age - why would human babies be any less capable of that desire

The above is a misconception about involuntary sphincters--they still function as sphincters. An infant wouldn't "leak" all day, when the bladder is full, the voiding reflex centers in the lower spinal cord would signal for the bladder to release by relaxing the internal urethral sphincter, just like in an adult--the difference is in older humans, where the external urethral sphincter is what you are "holding" when you have to urinate. The internal sphincter is just smooth (involuntary) muscle, whereas there would be some skeletal (voluntary) muscle in the external sphincter, which allows you to "hold it."

Now, eventually, your brain and spinal cord kind of make a connection, for lack of a simpler term, so that you realize, "hey--I need to pee". The mechanism for how this switch is made is not exactly known yet--so I can see how people who practice EC may be helping their infants along-and how the infants could have the capability to "get it" earlier.

Defecation is different, but still the same type of mechanism.

Anyway, interesting discussion-I've enjoyed reading it.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambystoma* 
DISCLAIMER: I don't really know much about whether all infants are aware etc of their need to urinate/defecate or if they all "cue", or whatever, so I'm not really commenting on that. I also don't know lots about EC, so I'm not really commenting on that either-- I just wanted to address some physiological issues.

The above is a misconception about involuntary sphincters--they still function as sphincters. An infant wouldn't "leak" all day, when the bladder is full, the voiding reflex centers in the lower spinal cord would signal for the bladder to release by relaxing the internal urethral sphincter, just like in an adult--the difference is in older humans, where the external urethral sphincter is what you are "holding" when you have to urinate. The internal sphincter is just smooth (involuntary) muscle, whereas there would be some skeletal (voluntary) muscle in the external sphincter, which allows you to "hold it."

Now, eventually, your brain and spinal cord kind of make a connection, for lack of a simpler term, so that you realize, "hey--I need to pee". The mechanism for how this switch is made is not exactly known yet--so I can see how people who practice EC may be helping their infants along-and how the infants could have the capability to "get it" earlier.

Defecation is different, but still the same type of mechanism.

Anyway, interesting discussion-I've enjoyed reading it.









this is what is so fascinating about EC and why I wish someone would do a real scientific study about it. my mom has a PhD in developmental psychology and she originally thought that EC was just a trained pavlovian type response to the parental cue ("pssss") and physical position. But in observing my youngest especially, clearly letting us know at 2 weeks old that she had to go, and observing her over the last 19 months, she completely changed her mind. I believe this is definitely an area where eventually science will catch up with the reality and we will see a big shift in how people view what babies understand and can communicate, as well as what they are physically capable of. it makes total sense that the studies to-date show that kids can't hold it until they are at least 18 months... but those are toddlers who were never given an opportunity to develop sphincter control as newborns. my 19 month old potties at about the same frequency as everyone else in the house - much, much less frequent than most diapered 3 year olds i know - because she has developed the ability gradually since birth.

my experience (and that of many, many millions of people all over the world) is that very tiny babies can and do hold their pee and poo just like adults do. my youngest exhibited a very strong preference, for example, for peeing and pooing at home. and by the time she was 4 months old,if we would go out to the nearest big town (45 minutes away) and go shopping for an hour or two and then come home, she would often not go at all, or go only once, the entire time we were gone, and then pee and poo a massive load as soon as i put her on the potty when we got home. During a similar period of time (similar time of day, similar amount of nursing and sleeping) if we were at home she would've pottied at least 5 or 6 times, smaller amounts each time. she was clearly and intentionally holding her pee and poo until she could get to a comfy and familiar place - just like I'd prefer to do.

as for the early potty learning... my mom was a very gentle parent who never punished for really anything, let alone potty stuff. and my brother and i were both "potty trained" by around 18 months of age. What she did with us is essentially what we now refer to as late-start, part-time EC - starting to put us on the potty around a year of age or a little earlier, at times that were known to be common times of need (ie upon waking) and at regular intervals like when she was going to the bathroom or a half-hour after we ate, and of course any time we expressed a desire or need. Not all early potty-learning of the past was strap a baby to a potty and smack them if they don't go. in fact of the people I have spoken with (older generations in both my family and DH's, as well as random people I meet when this conversation arises because i'm taking my infant or young toddler off to the toilet) I haven't found anyone who actually did that. I'm sure there were people who were abusive to their kids in general who did (and still do) use punishment with potty learning, but I really don't think it has ever been the norm the way some people imagine that it was. i think the family's over-all approach to child-rearing has more to do with how they PT than anything, if they are super-punitive, PT'ing is going to be punitive. that was true in the past and it's true now, regardless of what the pediatrician might recommend.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pookietooth* 
OK, so I think I recognize these signs, but then how do you get them to pee/poo? And isn't getting up at night a hassle? Also, dd cries after she pees when she's lying naked. I have a friend who ec'd her son and he ended up with chronic constipation. He would cry on the potty as an infant. Turned me off to EC. However I have another friend whose dd was in sposies and she still wets herself at 6!

if you recognize a sign, take off the diaper and hold them over something (toilet, little potty, bucket, whatever you want to use), at the age of your baby the 'classic' EC hold where you put your hands under the baby's knees, with baby's back to your chest is probably going to be the most supportive and comfortable. make a cue sound (a popular one is "pssssss") and the baby will probably pee and/or poo. if they don't within, say, 30 seconds, put the diaper back on and go about your business. sometimes it takes a handful of attempts before the baby figures out what you are wanting and that is OK for them to relax their sphincters and go. it is helpful if you keep your baby in a diaper without a cover when it's convenient, and make the cue sound whenever you observe the diaper getting wet or hear baby pooping, so they can associate the cue sound with the feeling, which will help them make the connection between your cue and their release, so that it becomes easier for them to release when they hear you cue. first thing in the morning or after a nap is always a good time to try because we all pee when we wake up.

night-time... everyone's experience at night is different. for me, night time was the worst with the baby i EC'd the least (started at 9 months and was very PT about it) and whom I didn't attempt to EC at night... because i nursed her back down every time she stirred, which meant more milk in her belly/bladder and thus more need to pee, so it was a vicious cycle that kept her waking up a lot at night and i had a hell of a time keeping her (and the family bed) dry because she peed so much. and though she was a daytime EC grad right around age 2, it was another several months before she was consistently dry at night. as a contrast, the baby that i FT EC'd and EC'd at night from basically the beginning would only wake up a couple times at night to pee, and within a few months rarely woke up at all to pee (though she still did, and still does wake up to nurse at least once at 19 months. last night because she has a cold, she nursed 3x, and peed an absolute flood on the potty this morning







). some people don't EC at night and prefer to use a feel-dry diaper like a pocket or sposie because they do find it disruptive... in large part it depends on the baby (mine always went right back to sleep after peeing, some wake up and want to party







).

there is some great info at diaperfreebaby.org and here on MDC in the EC forum, if you want to learn more or have any questions.


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## katiesk

Quote:

And isn't getting up at night a hassle?
not for me it wasn't. i kept dd's tiny potty by my bed...i did not even get out of bed to let her pee. she was waking up - because she had to pee, and i could have let her pee in her toilet when she wanted or cry and fuss and pee in her diaper and then change her. granted, this was after we had established daytime ec and she had developed a clear and strong preference to peeing in the toilet.


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## colobus237

1. I knew many people who did EC. I never knew any who had it work "as advertised" ie few accidents and early potty independence.

2. I tried it with 2 babies, briefly, and found it to be time consuming, messy, stressful. It doesn't seem to be fully compatible with an indoor, clothed lifestyle.

3. My babies didn't mind wearing diapers and never expressed any strong need or desire to use the toilet as infants. The common talk of potty strikes and regressions among ECers leads me to believe that such "needs" are more imagined than real (not the need for hygiene which is obvious, but the "need" for excretion to be managed in a particular way).


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## hottmama

Neither of my sons seemed to dislike wearing diapers, and both potty trained easily around 20 months. I did very part-time EC my oldest a bit (he's almost 7 now, I hadn't even heard of EC) because there were clear cues when he was going to poop (every couple days) and it was easier for it to go in the potty than a diaper.
I have seen people EC at playgroups who will just have their kid pee/poop on a potty right out in the middle of a room full of people, and that's gross. I also feel this way about people changing poopy diapers in front of others. Ick.
I wear my babies on my back so that I can go about my life, which I feel is good for child development. I don't have the time or desire to watch them for cues. Once they are mobile (my youngest crawled at 5 mos. and walked at 8.5 mos) they have free roam of the house and go off and play with their toys or spend time near me as they choose.
I think there are a lot of contradictions between the "diapering is ignoring baby's cues, it's so gross and uncomfortable for them to go in their pants, etc" and the claim that you can use diapers for "backup" and go about your life. What's the point to "catching" a couple pees a day? Your kid is still in diapers.








And if EC'd babies don't potty train earlier, what on earth would I gain from doing this thing that is inconvenient and with no generally recognized health benefits? I can't imagine my kids potty training any earlier than they do post-diapers because they couldn't even get their pants up and down before a year and a half.


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## Drummer's Wife

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama* 
And if EC'd babies don't potty train earlier, what on earth would I gain from doing this thing that is inconvenient and with no generally recognized health benefits? I can't imagine my kids potty training any earlier than they do post-diapers because they couldn't even get their pants up and down before a year and a half.

This is sorta where I am coming from. To me, it's easier to change diapers along the way, for the first two years. I, personally, wouldn't find it any more convenient (in fact, I am assuming it would be inconvenient) to EC when chances are the resulting truly 'diaper free age' is about the same. For instance, my DD, now 8, was completly out of diapers, day and night, at 24 months. We did not practice EC (in fact, she was in disposables most of her first year) but around her first b-day I did start putting her in cotton training pants while at home some of the time, introduced her to a small potty, and had a basket of underwear next to the potty. When she was wet, I walked her to the bathroom, helped her take the undies off, she sat on the potty, and then put a dry pair on. This is how we did it in my Montessori classroom, and I did see LO's using the toilet between 18-24 mos as a result.

When reading the EC threads that ask, "if you EC'd from birth, when was your child potty learned?'(or a variation of this question) it seems like the answer is still 18 mos+, and more likely 2-2.5 yrs old. The latter is actually similar to the average age for toileting for non-EC'ers.

I'm not knocking EC'ing as being helpful for independent toileting later on - or saying there is no immediate/future benefits.... just that for me, personally, it seems like just a bit more work than changing a diaper after the fact. And as it turns out, I happened to have four LO's who didn't seem to mind whether they were wet or dry, which is why I don't feel the least bit bad about having them sit in a soiled diaper for a few seconds/minutes until I was able to change them (and actually, as I said way upthread, one child in particular I am positive would have been greatly opposed to being held over a toilet as an infant every time he had to go - he also has sensory issues, so that may be part of it).

I guess I am just commenting yet again so that EC'ers realize that it truly isn't for every parent and every baby, and as others have said, there is even a chance that it won't work (even when done correctly) for every LO. I know most EC'ers aren't putting down those who don't EC, but it does seem like there are those who don't understand WHY on earth one wouldn't desire to do this with their infant when they themselves think it's a wonderful form of 'communication'.

I for one have learned a lot on this thread, so I thank those who have participated... I just hope since the question was "why don't you EC?" others have truly learned why some of us don't EC, and are understanding of that, instead of thinking we just don't know how it is supposed to work, and what the potential benefits are.


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## Daffodil

I did EC with my DD, and she was about 25 months when she finally reached the point where she would consistently tell us if she needed to go, and pretty much never had an accident. According to my baby book, I was potty trained at about the same age, without EC. But when I asked myself whether EC would still seem worthwhile, even if I knew my kid would potty train around 2 either way, I concluded that it was definitely worthwhile.

The lack of poopy diapers alone would have made it worthwhile. I caught almost every poop from the time DD was 2 months old. And I was able to stop using diapers long before she was what I would call a graduate. (She was out of diapers by 8 months.) So I saved a lot of money on diapers and diaper laundry, and had less of an impact on the environment. And I liked the way EC made me more aware of everything that was going on with her. I liked knowing how often she typically peed, and seeing how needing to pee or having a wet diaper affected her behavior.

And of course, if I hadn't done EC, she might not have potty trained at 2. Although some kids potty train easily at 2 or younger without EC, it doesn't work out that way for every kid. Doing EC may not guarantee your kid will be out of diapers as a 1 year old, but I think it pretty much guarantees your kid won't be one of those 4 year olds who are still resisting using the potty. My DS turned out to be a much more difficult case than DD. He may have some physical problem that makes bladder control harder for him. At 4, he still pees a little bit in his pants pretty often. Without EC, I suspect he would have been one of those kids who just didn't seem ready to potty learn even at 3 or 3 1/2. With EC, we've been able to get by without diapers since he was about 1 1/2 (and he was totally reliable about pooping in the toilet by that age.)

At first, EC was more work than diapering would have been, but later on it was definitely easier. Popping into a bathroom stall, pulling down her pants, and pulling them up again was a lot easier than going through the whole diaper changing process (and it's easier to find places to pee than to find places to change diapers.) And even at first, I'm not sure it was really that much more work. I think partly it just felt like a lot of extra work, because it was different work than what I saw or read about other parents doing. At times, I did get a bit stressed about it, worrying about possible misses. But I don't think that stress would have been there if it weren't for the fact that I was doing something "odd" that no one else I knew had tried. I wasn't sure it would really work in the long run, and if it didn't work, I was afraid of looking foolish for having tried it. And in the short run, I was afraid of what people would think if my baby had an obvious accident. If EC were the norm, I don't think many people would find it stressful. (By the time DS came along, after I had seen for myself that EC definitely worked, I felt way more relaxed about it.)


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
This is sorta where I am coming from. To me, it's easier to change diapers along the way, for the first two years. I, personally, wouldn't find it any more convenient (in fact, I am assuming it would be inconvenient) to EC when chances are the resulting truly 'diaper free age' is about the same. For instance, my DD, now 8, was completly out of diapers, day and night, at 24 months. We did not practice EC (in fact, she was in disposables most of her first year) but around her first b-day I did start putting her in cotton training pants while at home some of the time, introduced her to a small potty, and had a basket of underwear next to the potty. When she was wet, I walked her to the bathroom, helped her take the undies off, she sat on the potty, and then put a dry pair on. This is how we did it in my Montessori classroom, and I did see LO's using the toilet between 18-24 mos as a result.

When reading the EC threads that ask, "if you EC'd from birth, when was your child potty learned?'(or a variation of this question) it seems like the answer is still 18 mos+, and more likely 2-2.5 yrs old. The latter is actually similar to the average age for toileting for non-EC'ers.

I'm not knocking EC'ing as being helpful for independent toileting later on - or saying there is no immediate/future benefits.... just that for me, personally, it seems like just a bit more work than changing a diaper after the fact. And as it turns out, I happened to have four LO's who didn't seem to mind whether they were wet or dry, which is why I don't feel the least bit bad about having them sit in a soiled diaper for a few seconds/minutes until I was able to change them (and actually, as I said way upthread, one child in particular I am positive would have been greatly opposed to being held over a toilet as an infant every time he had to go - he also has sensory issues, so that may be part of it).

I guess I am just commenting yet again so that EC'ers realize that it truly isn't for every parent and every baby, and as others have said, there is even a chance that it won't work (even when done correctly) for every LO. I know most EC'ers aren't putting down those who don't EC, but it does seem like there are those who don't understand WHY on earth one wouldn't desire to do this with their infant when they themselves think it's a wonderful form of 'communication'.

I for one have learned a lot on this thread, so I thank those who have participated... I just hope since the question was "why don't you EC?" others have truly learned why some of us don't EC, and are understanding of that, instead of thinking we just don't know how it is supposed to work, and what the potential benefits are.


You said this much better then I could.







And I really hope that the ECers have come to understand why EC doesn't work for everyone and that some babies are almost impossible to EC.


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## pixiepunk

i think to some extent the reason it seems like some kids are potty independent when EC'd at the sage age as PL'ing is semantic. while it is true that true independence usually comes between 12-24 months, most EC'd babies don't poop anywhere but the potty from a very early age. often long before they are mobile. for me, who is massively icked out by poop and having it smeared from stem to stern, that in and of itself would have been a reason to continue. and while it is certainly true that some kids PL before two, I haven't met very many. most diapered kids I know are not out of diapers until 3, many even older. there are way more PL'ing threads of The Childhood Years forum than in the Toddler one, IME.

Independence also depends a lot on how you practice EC - if you start late and do it part-time (like i did with my oldest) you're not going to probably see the same results and doing it FT from birth. i know i didn't.

as for the diaper back-up thing... the point of the diapers, at least for me, is that if you can't get to a toilet you don't have a mess. i'm big on the hygienic aspects of EC, i don't want poop all over me nor do many people i know who EC. it is not used in the same way as diapers are typically used, and most EC'd babies do not dirty anywhere near the number of diapers per day that a diapered baby does. i remember very clearly when DD2 was 2 months old changing her diaper because she'd been in it more than 24 hours, rather than because it was wet. that was the first of many, many experiences like that, which were more the norm than the exception. i never owned more than about 18 diapers, never had them all dirty at the same time, and rarely did wash more than 1x a week. some people rely on them more than others, but for me they were simply a fail-safe to keep messes at bay because i don't like messes.


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## sapphire_chan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
*raises hand*

Sorry, that's what the science suggests to me. It's a long road to localizing sensations, which ends at about 18 months when they can finally pinpoint where they're feeling a certain sensation down to the . That's why a baby crying and tugging on his ear is as much a sign that he might have an ear infection as that he might be teething, or it could even mean he just hurt his foot somehow.

No, I don't think babies tug at their ear for foot pain. They tug at their ears for ear pain, teething which causes ear pain, and probably acid reflux since that'd also refer to the ears.








Lina frequently wants to nurse when she has to pee because she feels uncomfortable in her tummy. No interest in nursing after the first few sucks that help her relax enough to relax her sphincter and pee. There is definitely some confusion about what's going on, but isn't all that far apart.


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## sapphire_chan

What I think is awesome is how many people who aren't ECing did consider it. Back when I started on MDC, I'd see a TON of posts like "I really wish I'd known about this with my first DC" or "I really wish I'd know about this when my DC was born". In just 4 years people are able to make a complete decision with full information.


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## Tjej

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambystoma* 

The above is a misconception about involuntary sphincters--they still function as sphincters. An infant wouldn't "leak" all day, when the bladder is full, the voiding reflex centers in the lower spinal cord would signal for the bladder to release by relaxing the internal urethral sphincter, just like in an adult--the difference is in older humans, where the external urethral sphincter is what you are "holding" when you have to urinate. The internal sphincter is just smooth (involuntary) muscle, whereas there would be some skeletal (voluntary) muscle in the external sphincter, which allows you to "hold it."

Now, eventually, your brain and spinal cord kind of make a connection, for lack of a simpler term, so that you realize, "hey--I need to pee". The mechanism for how this switch is made is not exactly known yet--so I can see how people who practice EC may be helping their infants along-and how the infants could have the capability to "get it" earlier.

Defecation is different, but still the same type of mechanism.

Ok, I should have phrased what I said differently. I don't understand why a child would not be able to feel the pressure and the subesquent release when the sphincter opens. I should have separated that arguement from the dribbling one (as the voluntary vs. involuntary muscle explaination removes that issue). Mea culpa.

Having EC'd my son from so young, it was very obvious with him that he would "hold it" right away. He didn't always make it until we got to the bathroom, but it's AMAZING what they can do.

Tjej


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## Daffodil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
And I really hope that the ECers have come to understand why EC doesn't work for everyone and that some babies are almost impossible to EC.

We've certainly seen examples of why it doesn't work for everyone - but I'll say again, as several people have said before, that a lot of them seem to be examples of how better information and support could have made it work better. For instance, the idea that "some babies are almost impossible to EC" - to me, that's an idea based on lack of information and real-life experience. You mean babies who don't signal? I had one of those babies, and she was out of diapers by 8 months. I relied mostly on timing, and that worked just fine. It's possible I could also have gotten help from experienced parents who were better at recognizing subtle signals - if I had known any such parents. Maybe DD was signalling and I just didn't pick up on it. I did seem to notice more signals from my second baby, but whether that was due to experience or just a different baby, I don't know. I could easily believe that most of us who didn't see any signals just didn't know how to recognize them - but I don't think it even matters whether or not that's the case, because I've seen for myself that EC can work beautifully even when you don't see signals.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
We've certainly seen examples of why it doesn't work for everyone - but I'll say again, as several people have said before, that a lot of them seem to be examples of how better information and support could have made it work better. For instance, the idea that "some babies are almost impossible to EC" - to me, that's an idea based on lack of information and real-life experience. You mean babies who don't signal? I had one of those babies, and she was out of diapers by 8 months. I relied mostly on timing, and that worked just fine. It's possible I could also have gotten help from experienced parents who were better at recognizing subtle signals - if I had known any such parents. Maybe DD was signalling and I just didn't pick up on it. I did seem to notice more signals from my second baby, but whether that was due to experience or just a different baby, I don't know. I could easily believe that most of us who didn't see any signals just didn't know how to recognize them - but I don't think it even matters whether or not that's the case, because I've seen for myself that EC can work beautifully even when you don't see signals.

I'm glad timing worked for you, but it didn't really work out that well for me. I would take her and she wouldn't do anything. She would either pee/poop on me or the diaper. There was no schedule for when she went and I couldn't live my life holding her over the potty.

Now that she is over a year and a little more regular, I've started trying again and it is going better. But as a tiny baby, it was impossible.


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## katiesk

Quote:

doing this thing that is inconvenient
and this is why i am so excited about ec...because it is so CONVENIENT for me...and it has made things so easy as far as dd 'eliminating' goes.

for me, using diapers as back up after dd was six months or so was just laziness...like i mentioned earlier, if we were out and about and i did not know that i would offer her a chance to go in the toilet...i just used diapers. but thats weird you know? you would not do that with a five year old who was potty trained but when they need to use the bathroom they need to use it NOW.


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## sapphire_chan

What I don't get is why part time ECing isn't more popular?

It seems super easy to me, as a full-time ECing parent, to hold the baby over a potty when they wake up dry in the morning or after a diaper doesn't have quite as much poop as expected.

Or do people who "don't EC" already do that sort of thing to avoid having to change diapers immediately after putting a fresh diaper on the baby?

Oh, and since the definition of being successful at ECing is one catch, there are plenty of posters in this thread who were successful at ECing.


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## Ambystoma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
<snip> I should have separated that arguement from the dribbling one (as the voluntary vs. involuntary muscle explaination removes that issue). Mea culpa.

Meh, I just literally taught my Anatomy students about this at their last lecture (mainly nursing students) and most of them had a whole slew of misconceptions about the sphincters, so I thought it might help other people who were confused understand better more than anything.

Again, I am an EC dummy, so I'm learning lots from this thread. I wish more studies were done on it. It seems like an interesting mechanism-but I think it would have to be those neuropsychologists or neurobiologists that do research out of my realm of awareness.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
<snip> Or do people who "don't EC" already do that sort of thing to avoid having to change diapers immediately after putting a fresh diaper on the baby?

Oh, and since the definition of being successful at ECing is one catch, there are plenty of posters in this thread who were successful at ECing.









Well, then I may be able to label myself as a part time ECer when the kid gets here. It really does make sense to try that after the diaper change, etc. So, that may be much more popular-even among mainstream people. I know I saw my aunt do that at least once when she saw her baby was about to poo again mid-diaper change.


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## superfastreader

holding her over the potty worked until she got mobile around 11mo. then she wanted to do her own thing. she would literally scream when i offered the potty. i backed off but was never able to get her back on the potty. i tried everything in the potty strike threads on the EC board.

i really do hope that people realize that toddlerhood really throws a wrench into EC. a baby who was really into it may turn pottying into a control issue, which is what happened with my DD. i honestly believed that we would be in trainers between 12-18 months, but here we are still in diapers. i have not backed off of offering the potty, but respect her when she says "no."

sometimes the benefits of very beneficial AP practices get touted too strongly, making some moms feel like failures when their baby doesn't follow the textbook. like babies who are worn never cry, or EC'ed babies always prefer the potty, or cosleeping moms always get more sleep. i think when we focus on the outcome & insist that there's one right way to do something, we do a real disservice to the individuality of our children, and fail our fellow moms.

i also want to ask a question of the moms who EC their babies outside. do you live in urban or rural areas? how do you feel about strangers seeing your child's genitals? what about groundwater contamination from waste matter? the latter is a real problem in developing countries.


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## sapphire_chan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *superfastreader* 
i also want to ask a question of the moms who EC their babies outside. do you live in urban or rural areas? how do you feel about strangers seeing your child's genitals? what about groundwater contamination from waste matter? the latter is a real problem in developing countries.

If there's no one around to see the baby pee, is any flashing going on?









Yes, groundwater contamination is a concern. And by having my baby poop in the toilet 90% of the time (and dumping the poop out into the toilet for a large portion of the remaining time), and having her pee into a toilet or sink (or pouring the potty into one of the above) for most of the time (and having her pee onto asphalt some of the other times) I really do a lot more to keep waste matter out of the groundwater than the average dog owner or disposable diapering parent.

I'll worry about the impact of my baby's waste on groundwater when people start peeing their dogs into composting toilets.

Until then, I'll just stick to having less impact on the groundwater than livestock.









As for the developing country part of the equation, it isn't people eliminating in the street that's the problem, it's the absence of a good sewage system. Doesn't matter if you use a toilet if it just drains straight out to the local rivers.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *superfastreader* 
holding her over the potty worked until she got mobile around 11mo. then she wanted to do her own thing. she would literally scream when i offered the potty. i backed off but was never able to get her back on the potty. i tried everything in the potty strike threads on the EC board.

i really do hope that people realize that toddlerhood really throws a wrench into EC. a baby who was really into it may turn pottying into a control issue, which is what happened with my DD. i honestly believed that we would be in trainers between 12-18 months, but here we are still in diapers. i have not backed off of offering the potty, but respect her when she says "no."

*sometimes the benefits of very beneficial AP practices get touted too strongly, making some moms feel like failures when their baby doesn't follow the textbook. like babies who are worn never cry, or EC'ed babies always prefer the potty, or cosleeping moms always get more sleep. i think when we focus on the outcome & insist that there's one right way to do something, we do a real disservice to the individuality of our children, and fail our fellow moms.*

i also want to ask a question of the moms who EC their babies outside. do you live in urban or rural areas? how do you feel about strangers seeing your child's genitals? what about groundwater contamination from waste matter? the latter is a real problem in developing countries.

ITA with that. and when i talk about EC i try to talk more about the bonding and communication aspects which, for me, were far more important to me than the outcome of getting all poop and pee in a potty or having a one year old in underpants. for me, EC meant listening to what my child was communicating about his/her potty needs - which sometimes meant "damn it i don't want to sit on the potty right now!" and I respect *all* the communication my child makes about eliminating, even if it's not the communication I would have preferred to hear. but then of course you get the responses of "why would I do it if I'm not even going to get a kid out of diapers earlier?" well.... OK, it's been said over and over what other benefits are, but people do seem to be totally hung up on "when are they potty trained" just like many people will want to know why they should co-sleep if it's not going to help them get more sleep or why would they babywear if their kid is still going to cry. for the answer to all those questions is *respect* for my child. I try as a parent to treat my children as i would want to be treated. I want to be held when i'm sad, fed when i'm hungry, and if i were not able to get myself to a toilet i'd want someone to help me even if it wasn't as convenient as putting me in a diaper.

as for the pottying outside... I have lived in both a city and a rural area (city when my oldest two were tiny, rural with littlest one). I don't have a problem with pee outside. I mean people walk their dogs all over the city and they pee on the ground, squirrels and rats and cats and birds and every other animal pees and poos outside. that said, if i think there's a chance of a poo with a tiny baby, i hold them over their diaper and then wash the diaper. if i'm totally surprised by a poo, i take my water bottle and try and clean it up. with an older child who has a solid poo, if they did it outside i'd pick it up and throw it away just like i would if my dog pooped outside (i'm talking city here... i don't follow my dog around our 45 acres and pick up her poop







). now i live in a rural area but the answer is the same. i don't want poop all over my yard, animal or human, but i'm not fussed about the occasional pee considering that the deer and our dog and racoons and skunks and foxes and occasionally bears do their business in my yard too. I personally prefer that everyone in my family pee and poo in a toilet when it's available, so from the early days that's what i did for the most part, and i carry a little potty in the trunk of my car and lay a prefold in it so we don't have to go outside terribly often.


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## Collinsky

I tried it with my first -- I was very idealistic and motivated to be the best darn natural mama I could be then -- but she never discernably signaled, and timing didn't work for me. I spent months getting peed on, which didn't gross me out (just good clean baby pee







) but was certainly discouraging after a while. I had ONE catch the whole time, and just kept telling myself that we were "getting the hang of it" and would soon be having more catches, it was just a matter of sticking it out and somehow, some way, it would begin to click for us. And then she learned to crawl and it wasn't long after that that I began to feel like any progress we'd made towards that "click" were either completely undone, or fabricated in my imagination to begin with. I was a member of online EC groups, did tons of reading, and was all for it, but finally just kind of had to throw in the towel and stop focusing so much on something that wasn't working.

I wanted to when I had my second, since I felt I had failed so completely with my first, and read the books to fortify myself and be armed with motivation and information. She also didn't really seem to signal, and timing just doesn't work for me. If I had to know when to breastfeed by timing alone, I don't know how on earth that would work out, TBH! Fortunately, infant hunger cues are pretty clear; I really did watch my girls as much as I could to see "Wait, did she squinch up her left eye there? Is that a cue? Oh, guess not." It stands to reason that hunger cues would be much clearer (and become far more intense the longer they are not responded to, as I'm sure we've all seen with others' babies!) because that need is 100% dependent on someone else responding to it. For peeing or pooping, even if no one responds to that need, it will fulfill itself - so the biological need for mama to know is significantly less.

At any rate, I ended up shelving EC (I still support it as an option for parents to consider, and actually talked one set of expectant parents into it, just a few months ago) in the "not for me" category. On the one hand, I felt like a failure, because obviously I was doing it wrong or was constitutionally unable to have that communication with my sweet babies. But at the same time, I was getting stressed out, discouraged, and rather than being a connecting, communicating, bonding thing, it was just a stay-positive-while-getting-peed-on thing that was starting to make me feel like a bad mama, and I wanted to just ENJOY my baby. I realize that for many, EC contributes to that - but that wasn't my experience, and I'm okay with that. I also am open to the idea of ECing (each time I'm pg I think about it) and if it is more successful this time I'll be glad - I'm all about using less dipes! - but if it doesn't work for us I'm not going to beat myself up for depriving my children and myself of some otherwise unattainable benefits because I personally don't think that's the case. I used to, but not anymore. I respect it, and I confess I still feel twinges of envy around my ECing friends from time to time, but I don't feel EC is necessary or that anyone should force themselves to do it just on principle.


----------



## katiesk

Quote:

I don't feel EC is necessary or that anyone should force themselves to do it just on principle.
well, of course not!


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## Carlyle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
ahh, good point.

I was just mentioning that b/c many people, including child development experts and peds - simply don't believe babies are capable of that type of control (physically) until they are a bit older.

This was the biggest shock to me when I started ecing my dd. Here were all the experts, the peds, and the books (including Sears) telling me that babies couldn't control their sphincters before 18 months, and my FOUR MONTH OLD was clearly, clearly holding it. Really holding it. Looking back, she was holding it before I even started ec at 3 months old (she was one of those babies who would hold it and then poop up a STORM on the changing table...a TOTAL mess). I started to wonder what other things my pediatrician was telling me that were just wrong. A scary thought.

No judgment here on anyone who does or doesn't do ec. I think you can diaper and potty train "normally" with huge amounts of love and communication, and I think you can ec with huge amounts of stress and shame. And vice versa.

I do hope that this thread has helped people see that there are plenty of valid reasons to NOT ec, and that ec:

1. doesn't need to be a huge disgusting mess (for some of us it was MUCH cleaner than relying solely on diapers)

2. doesn't necessarily mean watching your baby like a hawk all the time (some of the people who said that they don't ec were really doing a modified part-time ec in my book--introducing your baby gently to the potty at 1 year old is pretty counter-culture to today's diapering practices in the US, you know?)

3. isn't limited to stay at home parents (offer once a morning--hey! you're ecing!)

Interesting discussion...


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## razberry

hello there well my daughters almost 6 months and my only concerne about it is that , ive hearde from other moms that there baby was pron at night to hold it in and be totally unconfortable because the mom in question just wanted to sleep the little time she has so whats the solution because i dont want to teach my kid tha its ok to hold it in , it can bring health problemes in the futur...


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## katiesk

except that you do want want to teach young kids not to pee in bed...unless they will wear pull ups or whatever...

i don't encourage my dd to "hold it" at night (or ever really - except for a moment or two, long enough to get to a toilet) but she usually pees at bedtime and then again when she wakes up in the am. if she occasionally does have to pee in the night, she does not hold it, she wakes up to pee and the goes right back to sleep.


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## Plummeting

We did EC, but DD was also one of those babies who never seemed to mind being wet _at all_. They definitely do exist.







When she was a tiny baby she would get really active before she went - just wiggling a lot and maybe even fussing a little. However, by the time she was maybe 5 or 6 months old, she wasn't giving any kind of indication that she needed to go. We just took her when we thought she had to go, kept her in diapers or little trainers the rest of the time and definitely did not exist in a house where there was pee and poop all over the floor.

Actually, DD used to poop on me regularly when she was pooping in diapers and I had to change her. Her poop was explosive and sometimes I'd think she was done before she was, then I'd get the diaper off and more poop would come flying out of her butt and generally land right on the front of my shirt. Once she was pooping in the potty all the time (6 months) I never got pooped on again, nor did I _ever_ get poop on my floors, walls, clothing, furniture, etc. That literally _only_ happened when she was pooping in diapers. There were a few times where she peed and it went right through the trainers onto the floor, but mostly the trainers or diapers caught the pee and that was that. I really don't see how that's any different from someone helping their 3-year-old potty train by letting them run around naked and having _them_ pee all over the floor, other than at least with a baby in trainers, the majority of it is absorbed by the trainers. My SIL potty trained her kids that way and they had lots of accidents on the floors.

Honestly, I don't think much about whether people EC or not. I don't get why people get so upset about it or why, no matter what you tell people, they still insist that it must be some awful thing where you stare at your baby every second of every day, just waiting for a cue, and still end up with pee and poop all over everything. People are _telling_ some of you that's not the way it is for them. Who is a stranger on the internet to insist that it _must_ be? lol That's just as offensive as me telling a diaper user that their child HAS to be giving signals they're missing or MUST feel disrespected by being left to soil themselves. (I don't actually believe either of those things.)

I think EC is cool and it works for some people, but I also think cloth diapers are adorable and I've just invested at least a couple hundred dollars on a newborn stash that's guaranteed not to fit for more than a month. (Hey, I can sell them when I'm done, right?







) EC doesn't work for soe people. It can make them feel like they are spending too much time worrying about elimination. I get it. It hasn't been my experience, but I get it. What I don't get is why some insist that people who do it must be employing some noble savage theory or must be doing xyz. I don't really care who in the world did or didn't EC at what point in human development. It works for a lot of people, so I do it. So what?


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## LilMamiBella

This has been interesting. I wasn't for ec. I'm busy with 4 kids and we homeschool. I have spent tons of $$ on cloth diapers. _But_ reading this thread has me curious and so I was surprised to see that my library had the diaper free book.


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## Carlyle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LilMamiBella* 
This has been interesting. I wasn't for ec. I'm busy with 4 kids and we homeschool. I have spent tons of $$ on cloth diapers. _But_ reading this thread has me curious and so I was surprised to see that my library had the diaper free book.

For people skeptical about EC, I'd recommend "Diaper Free BABY" by Christine Gross Loh, and definitely NOT NOT NOT "Diaper Free" by Ingrid Bauer. Gross Loh's book (from what I've heard) does a great job of encouraging part time ec and is very laid back. Ingrid Bauer's book (I've read it) seems likely to press your buttons like you won't believe (based on all of the comments on here already about why people don't ec or are annoyed by the people who do ec). In my opinion, Bauer's book is very "this is the right and natural way" in tone, and puts it forth in an all or nothing approach. I think it would turn people off. But I've heard that Gross Loh's book is really good. Enjoy!


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## Plummeting

I never read _any_ of the EC books. My college roommate had told me about women in some parts of Africa doing it and I just filed that away as interesting, but not something possible in America. Then when I was pg with DD, I heard about EC and realized it was the same thing. I figured I'd try it and go with the flow. DD wore diapers full time for the first probably 7 months, then after that she always wore them when we weren't home and for bed and sometimes wore them around the house, coverless. She had some naked time, but I don't think it was _much_ more than any diapered baby normally has, because like most people, I didn't want to be cleaning pee up off the floors all the time. For another thing, I was afraid my dogs might get the wrong idea and think, _Hey, if *she*'s peeing in the house...._ I wasn't interested in finding out how that scenario would play out. lol

There were accidents and there was a "potty pause" at around 9ish months, where we were missing all the time and there was more than just a little pee getting past those trainers, so we switched her back to diapers without covers full time until she was using the potty consistently again, which was maybe 2 months later. There _were_ times where it was frustrating, but I do not at all believe it was any more frustrating _for us_ than potty training the old-fashioned way would've been. Sure there are stories of 2.5-year-olds getting up one day and deciding to use the potty full time all on their own, but the _majority_ of people I know who don't EC and do potty train their kids the "regular" way have found many aspects of it _very_ frustrating.

If people are honest, diapering a toddler and especially potty training a toddler or young child are generally not enjoyable experiences, no matter how cute your cloth diapers are. Holding down a 2.5 year old whose rear end is covered in poop, as she tries to escape because she hates having her diaper changed is not fun or cute, and I've seen at least a hundred posts at MDC with moms asking how they can make this exact scenario less disgusting, less messy and less upsetting for all involved, so I'm pretty sure they're finding it stressful. Therefore, pretending that diapering prevents some sort of universal stress experienced only by those who EC is either dishonest or misinformed. BOTH scenarios have their own stressful moments. It's up to each individual family to decide which will be less stressful for them, but it's simply not true that EC universally increases stress levels and workloads for parents.


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## Collinsky

Another reason I thought of is that I pretty much live in chaos all the time... adding EC in when I can't even manage to keep my house to any standard of cleanliness and can't make it anywhere on time is beyond me. I would LOVE to have it together enough that being proactive about my baby's elimination was a possibility. That certainly contributes to the feeling of failure, since I'm pretty sure that if I had anything in my life under control, EC would be a simple, easy thing to do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
I don't feel EC is necessary or that anyone should force themselves to do it just on principle.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *katiesk* 
well, of course not!

I hope it didn't sound snarky the way I said that - rereading it it seems it could seem that way! I just meant that for me, if I had kept doing it, I would have been forcing myself to do it just on principle, just to not be a failure at it, and not because of any experienced rewards or joy gained from it. Recognizing that and allowing myself to choose to put it aside was a big decision - and a relief - for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
For people skeptical about EC, I'd recommend "Diaper Free BABY" by Christine Gross Loh, and definitely NOT NOT NOT "Diaper Free" by Ingrid Bauer. Gross Loh's book (from what I've heard) does a great job of encouraging part time ec and is very laid back. Ingrid Bauer's book (I've read it) seems likely to press your buttons like you won't believe (based on all of the comments on here already about why people don't ec or are annoyed by the people who do ec). In my opinion, Bauer's book is very "this is the right and natural way" in tone, and puts it forth in an all or nothing approach. I think it would turn people off. But I've heard that Gross Loh's book is really good. Enjoy!

That's interesting. Bauer's book is the only one I read. I read a LOT online (stories, articles and on online groups) but the only book I read was by her, and I read it twice. I didn't see it as a negative book at all, but from what you say here I can imagine that I would be really sensitive to the "all or nothing" tone. Especially in the earlier days of my parenting, that would have been a pressure I easily took on! I read it before my second was born, after I had already "failed" at EC with my first, hoping that it would help me be more successful with EC try #2 -- but I ended up getting very discouraged very quickly and deciding it just wasn't going to work for us.


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## Lia & Eva's Mama

my views are not important.....


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## yamilee21

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
... That's interesting. Bauer's book is the only one I read. I read a LOT online (stories, articles and on online groups) but the only book I read was by her, and I read it twice. I didn't see it as a negative book at all, but from what you say here I can imagine that I would be really sensitive to the "all or nothing" tone. ...

I read Bauer's book after I had already been practicing EC with my son for 10-11 months. I disliked it so much that I almost wanted to quit EC, just to not be associated with that self-righteous, superiority-complex mentality that I found in the book. The Gross-Loh book really does make EC seem like something any parent could do, as much or as little as fits their lifestyle, without a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. Unfortunately, the Bauer mentality seems to be more prevalent in the [on-line] EC world than the Gross-Loh approach.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lia & Eva's Mama* 
EC is the greatest respect we can give an infant.......Its very humbling. When my girls lets say had an accident, i would apologize for not getting her to a toilet.
Hearing whew you stinky bum lets go change your stinky bum...really gets me, why be cutesy when its fecal matter smeared all over your babes genitals yuck...respect..respect to NOT let your child sit in waste.

I can see why not to EC, Definetly not for everyone, it is a LOT of work and dedication. It isn't like your watching all day, your kinda just aware (ON).

My first child did not cue at all till she learned our potty sign (tap chest) But it wasn't consistent. She still PL real early I think..don't quote me was 18 months and exactly 2 years old night dry.

My second was born 13 months after her sister, I was ECing both of them. EC was A LOT easier the second time around!!!! It was soo easy it was almost a joke LOL SHE was a very clear signaler from a very very early age..Would not poop her pants Would hold it for as long as her little body could. She was fully day dry at ...get this...13 months...The minute the little one learned to walk, she learned to potty.

I think once you know what most babies are capable of, its hard to just slap on a poop bag...sorry diaper.. and not think about it.

But Why let a baby tune out a natural instinct they were born with?

Oh and BTW I think daycares should EC, Children learn soo much better when they see others using the toilet.

Just adding my two bits.


I can't even begin to say how offensive this is.







Are you saying that I didn't give my children the greatest respect because EC didn't work for us?! And the reason I had to use "poop bags"







was because it was either that or get pooped on. DD2 wasn't born with a natural instict to only want to poop in the potty.


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## Collinsky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lia & Eva's Mama* 
EC is the greatest respect we can give an infant.......

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. For instance, I could go around saying that I think choosing unassisted homebirth is the greatest respect we can give our babies, to allow them to be born in the most natural, gentle, unhindered, respectful way possible... but in a "why didn't you homebirth?" thread, it would be a pretty disrespectful platform to come from IMO. My mothering has been GREATLY informed by my birth choices, and I wish more people "got it" as a viable, valuable option. I get that those who are pro-EC have similar feelings of frustration and the occasional (or frequent) urge to evangelize something that has been such a significant and meaningful part of their parenting, and that is also misunderstood, misrepresented, and maligned by larger society. I get that.

But you know what kids are capable of, IMO? Being fully healthy, happy, respected, connected, and loved no matter how their poop is dealt with, as long as it's done in a positive, gentle, loving, and hygienic way.


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## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lia & Eva's Mama* 
EC is the greatest respect we can give an infant.......Its very humbling. When my girls lets say had an accident, i would apologize for not getting her to a toilet.
Hearing whew you stinky bum lets go change your stinky bum...really gets me, why be cutesy when its fecal matter smeared all over your babes genitals yuck...respect..respect to NOT let your child sit in waste.

I can see why not to EC, Definetly not for everyone, it is a LOT of work and dedication. It isn't like your watching all day, your kinda just aware (ON).

My first child did not cue at all till she learned our potty sign (tap chest) But it wasn't consistent. She still PL real early I think..don't quote me was 18 months and exactly 2 years old night dry.

My second was born 13 months after her sister, I was ECing both of them. EC was A LOT easier the second time around!!!! It was soo easy it was almost a joke LOL SHE was a very clear signaler from a very very early age..Would not poop her pants Would hold it for as long as her little body could. She was fully day dry at ...get this...13 months...The minute the little one learned to walk, she learned to potty.

I think once you know what most babies are capable of, its hard to just slap on a poop bag...sorry diaper.. and not think about it.

But Why let a baby tune out a natural instinct they were born with?

Oh and BTW I think daycares should EC, Children learn soo much better when they see others using the toilet.

Just adding my two bits.

Aye aye aye. I mean, wow.

First of all, this doesn't answer the original question. The original question was why DIDN'T you EC. This might be a good answer to why DID you.

On a thread where people are discussing the reasons why we did NOT EC, this just comes across as really offensive. And sort of out of left field. I mean this thread is how many pages long? And every time we all make nice and agree different strokes for different folks, someone comes in and says "my way or the highway."


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## sapphire_chan

Since there may be new/soon-to-be mamas reading this thread to help decide if they'll try EC, I'm going to share

http://www.tribalbaby.org/

Most awesomest EC blog ever. She has terrific hints for getting started at various ages, how to do just a little, things to try to do more.


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## Carlyle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
That's interesting. Bauer's book is the only one I read. I read a LOT online (stories, articles and on online groups) but the only book I read was by her, and I read it twice. I didn't see it as a negative book at all, but from what you say here I can imagine that I would be really sensitive to the "all or nothing" tone. Especially in the earlier days of my parenting, that would have been a pressure I easily took on! I read it before my second was born, after I had already "failed" at EC with my first, hoping that it would help me be more successful with EC try #2 -- but I ended up getting very discouraged very quickly and deciding it just wasn't going to work for us.

I wouldn't call it a "negative book," but I think that yamilee said it well that it came across to me as "self-righteous." Like "this is the only/best way to do things," which is an attitude many people here have listed as a reason that they've been turned off by ec-ers.

I'm sorry that you felt like you "failed," and I do think that this book can make people feel that they're not "doing it right" if they have a harder time picking up on intuition or cues, and if they aren't as comfortable with a diaperless baby. Which is hogwash--there are as many ways to "ec" as there are babies.

This is why I recommend the Gross-Loh book based on what I've heard of it. It sounds like it really does make EC seem like something any parent could do, as much or as little as fits their lifestyle, without a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. (like yamilee said). I also agree that the Bauer mentality seems to be more prevalent in the [on-line] EC world than the Gross-Loh approach.

Personally, I think that kind of "all or nothing" approach does a huge disservice to all parents. We're caught between two extremes--pediatricians tell us to wait until children can literally tell us (in words) that they need to pee, which doesn't happen for many kids until they are over 2 years old, and the extreme diaper free advocates who make it sound like the only other alternative is to go diaper free from birth (not that all--or even most!--diaper free advocates do this, but it is the most sensational image and so gets the most press).

I *SO* wish that everyone could come to the agreement that hey, babies are aware of their elimination from birth, but what you do with that knowledge is up to you. You can help them retain that awareness by giving them occasional opportunities to use the potty--after naps/night, during diaper changes, 10 min after eating, and anytime you use the bathroom--whenever works for your schedule.

There's no pressure to focus on it any more than your child is asking for it, but just put it in your parenting toolbox as something to consider if your baby is fussy (hhmmmm, fussy baby: hungry? tired? gas? dirty diaper? need to pee?). Even a pee in the potty every couple of days still helps babies keep their awareness, and knowing that babies *might* be fussy because they need to pee is a GREAT parenting tool! (Not all babies do it real obviously, but some DO, and for those of us with really fussy babies--one more tool in the parenting toolbox is AWESOME!)

Anyway, I'm rambling, I'll stop. But this is my particular "hot button" issue--the whole judging each others toileting choices. All choices are valid, and there are many shades of grey between ec and not. One of my best friends started giving her ds chances to use the potty starting at 18 months because of watching me ec dd (they're around the same age), and it was great for her. When her dd was born, she asked to borrow my Bauer "Diaper Free" book and I almost didn't want to give it to her. She'd been so successful with her son partly because she didn't think she was "doing ec" and I was afraid to see her take it more seriously with her dd and burn out.


----------



## Carlyle

Sorry for the novella...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
And every time we all make nice and agree different strokes for different folks, someone comes in and says "my way or the highway."

(I hope that those reading about ec for the first time can ignore the people who aren't careful with their language. It makes me sad that they end up being the ambassadors for ec, and I'm sorry. AND I hope I don't come across that way!)


----------



## jessjgh1

Quote:

I *SO* wish that everyone could come to the agreement that hey, babies are aware of their elimination from birth, but what you do with that knowledge is up to you. You can help them retain that awareness by giving them occasional opportunities to use the potty--after naps/night, during diaper changes, 10 min after eating, and anytime you use the bathroom--whenever works for your schedule.
Interesting concept....
Do you think it is practical? I have a sense with my experience that a lot of times the process was guided by my children. Sometimes then demanded me to ec them even when it wasn't how I intended. It would have been difficult to just not do it some times. For example, I did not want to or plan on ec'ing at night but both my children 'insisted' on ec'ing at night at one or more points.

Jessica


----------



## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 

(I hope that those reading about ec for the first time can ignore the people who aren't careful with their language. It makes me sad that they end up being the ambassadors for ec, and I'm sorry. AND I hope I don't come across that way!)

I agree..... I also tend to assume that it is just that.... a poor choice of language or not thinking something through to a degree (or knowing all sides/points of view and not meaning to discount one). I know I've inadvertently stuck my foot in my mouth before









I have mostly been called on it gently, though. Which I try to remember.

Jessica


----------



## laurelg

I do EC part time, but figured I'd chime in with why we're only part-time.

Primarily, it's because I don't pay close enough attention, and DD doesn't signal that clearly. I'm a SAHM but was a full-time online student this semester, so I spend a lot of time with DD where I am present but somewhat distracted. And, she's engaging in a lot of independent play these days, so she's really not of the mindset to let me know when it's potty time.

We definitely EC at all the "easy" times, like wake-up. DD is great at that one - she's stayed dry all night pretty much since 6 weeks old. I also try to EC when I can be really focused on her, though a lot of times it's more a matter of hmm, she hasn't pottied in a while, let's try it... than actually picking up a cue. DD is good about taking opportunities when offered.

I agree with a PP who said she'd like people just to be _aware_ of babies' elimination awareness, and to choose what to do with that information. I helped a friend ease her older son into potty learning by explaining EC principles, and suggesting she start with the potty when he woke up. Had she known about it, she probably never would have been a full-timer, but it's something they could have done all along.

Since we've started solids, DD's poop cues have gotten WAY more obvious, which is nice, because I am not a fan of solid-poopy cloth diapers. So, I definitely try to EC for poop as much as possible, now!


----------



## LandonsMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
...and it isn't a magic answer to the question of "how long will I have to be cleaning baby poop up? Either way, you're going to be wiping butts and cleaning up poop -- either from your sink, or from the floor, or from a diaper.

LOL, so true!!

I've never had the interest and I've known about it since 2005 when my first was about 6 months. I dont know a lot about it but do have some friends that do/have done different variations of it.

I dont really understand the arguement that it helps babies PL earlier. Once friend did have her babe in undies at 11 months, which was amazing. But mostly it seems to be around 2, and both mine PL'd not long after two with no ECing.

I honestly dont see how in the world I could keep the house as clean as we like it (which isnt spottless by any means), keep my family fed, keep up on the minimal amount of homeschooling we do, keep up the few playdates and errands we tend to run, take time to play and read with the kids, check in on the computer, feed the baby, getting baby to sleep, etc etc etc, AND ec the baby,.. it just wouldnt happen here. It seems like it would add significantly to the stress of having three small children at home with me all day.

Plus DH already begrudges cloth diapering; were "wierd enough" (his words, not mine) already LOL!


----------



## LandonsMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Here it is again. No, I am not uninterested in EC because I "fear failure."

Do you not see that statements like that are *exactly* what people are talking about when they say that EC advocates are calling themselves better parents and even better *people*? You basically just called people who don't want to EC scaredycats -- one of the oldest playground fighting words around. That "75 reasons" list you linked to is also full of similar arguments -- the "better bond" and the "If you're REALLY AP you'd WANT to EC" arguments, specifically.

As the one who made the mammals nurse vs. eliminate argument, I did not say all mammals nurse *the same way.* Some mammals nurse constantly. Others nurse once or twice a day. There are countless little variations in how different mammals nurse their young. But nursing, the ACT of nursing, is *required* for life. Pooping in a bowl while you nurse, or being balanced on a potty at the age of 6 weeks is NOT required for life.

I'm sure you know people who found EC to be helpful in their breastfeeding and parenting journeys. I know people who found it made everything more stressful and difficult, exacerbated existing problems in their lives, households, and marriages, and eventually decided its benefits were not worth the stressors. Not every baby makes the same clear, obvious cue. Not every person lives in a house where one of those "misses" is no big deal. Not everyone can arrange their lives to drop everything whenever their baby makes a potty cue.

It is a very individual decision. You've seen a lot of well-presented reasons why a range of people decided it would not work in the totality of their lives. *Some people decide it is important enough to make work, other people decide there are other things that take priority within the greater context of their entire family and entire life*.

Very well spoken!


----------



## jessjgh1

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LandonsMom* 
I honestly dont see how in the world I could keep the house as clean as we like it (which isnt spottless by any means), keep my family fed, keep up on the minimal amount of homeschooling we do, keep up the few playdates and errands we tend to run, take time to play and read with the kids, check in on the computer, feed the baby, getting baby to sleep, etc etc etc, AND ec the baby,.. it just wouldnt happen here. It seems like it would add significantly to the stress of having three small children at home with me all day.

I really don't think it would take up a chunk of your time like you are thinking. It was almost always seamless in my experience- not something I analyzed all the time. Kind of like breastfeeding.... it just IS.
It might be more time consuming at times (like if you started with a newborn, at times when the child is 'pushing' it) but then at some point it starts to be quite equal to diapering, and then much less time.

Jessica


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LandonsMom* 
LOL, so true!!

I've never had the interest and I've known about it since 2005 when my first was about 6 months. I dont know a lot about it but do have some friends that do/have done different variations of it.

I dont really understand the arguement that it helps babies PL earlier. Once friend did have her babe in undies at 11 months, which was amazing. But mostly it seems to be around 2, and both mine PL'd not long after two with no ECing.

I honestly dont see how in the world I could keep the house as clean as we like it (which isnt spottless by any means), keep my family fed, keep up on the minimal amount of homeschooling we do, keep up the few playdates and errands we tend to run, take time to play and read with the kids, check in on the computer, feed the baby, getting baby to sleep, etc etc etc, AND ec the baby,.. it just wouldnt happen here. It seems like it would add significantly to the stress of having three small children at home with me all day.

Plus DH already begrudges cloth diapering; were "wierd enough" (his words, not mine) already LOL!

1) while a child might not be *completely* out of a diaper/trainer any earlier, the vast vast majority of EC'd babies poop exclusively in the potty from very early on. and while 100% of the pee may not end up in the potty, it's been my experience that by 6-ish months of age most of the pee goes in the potty, so you're talking maybe 2-4 pee diapers a day tops. so while they might not be in undies full-time, it is a very different experience than changing your infant or toddler every time they pee or poo 24-7 until they are PL'd at age 2 or 3 (or whenever).

2) as the pp mentioned, it's really not as labor intensive as you imagine it to be. or at least it wasn't for me - i know everyone's experience is going to be different. but i know it wasn't nearly as labor intensive as *I* imagined it to be when i started out with it. i thought it'd be worth it, but i thought it'd be hard. so much so that i didn't have the confidence to even try FT, from-birth EC with my 2nd child even though PT from 9 months wiht #1 worked so well. so i started very PT from about 2 months, then a little more actively PT from 6 months on. I decided to give FT EC a whirl with my 3rd child starting at 2 weeks of age (once we had breastfeeding established and i was fully back into my routine after the birth). and for me it was totally liberating, not hard work at all. i knew, for example, that if i pottied her right before i started washing the dishes, she was not then going to start fussing from a wet diaper 5 minutes into the chore. i knew that once i pottied and nursed her that she'd be happy in the sling for XX amount of time so i could play a game with my older two without interruption. i knew if i pottied her before we left the house i wouldn't hear a gigantic poop explosion from the back seat 10 minutes into a 45 minute drive to town. and pulling her trainers down, pee/poo/wipe with toilet paper, and pulling them back up took waaaay less time than laying her down, holding her still, distracting her with a toy while i unfastened a diaper, cleaned up, put dirty dipe in bin, got new dipe, refastened, redressed. especially when we were out and about! so i actually found that for me, it made life easier and gave me*more* time to spend with my older two and to deal with the house work and such. also, while my DH hates diaper changes like the dickens and would usually try to get me to stop doing whatever it was to change the baby, he didn't mind pottying her at all because it was so quick and easy. granted, he thought i was nuts at first, but once he realized what a cinch it was, he was all about it. so it also banked me more baby help, and helped DH realize that not all baby fusses required "magic boobs" to fix - sometimes it was something he could easily take care of himself. and i think that really helped him relax into his role as daddy with #3 more quickly and easily than he had with the first two, for whom everything was viewed as a need for boobs he didn't possess.

I just want to add that I hope the information I'm sharing is viewed as intended. i'm not to talk anyone into doing something they don't want to do. but i know that *I* had a lot of misconceptions about what EC entailed, and I see a lot of people who haven't tried it assuming it will be a lot of work. for some people it obviously is, but that has not been my experience with it at all, and so i feel compelled to share that for anyone reading the thread that might be considering it.


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## Collinsky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
I just want to add that I hope the information I'm sharing is viewed as intended. i'm not to talk anyone into doing something they don't want to do. but i know that *I* had a lot of misconceptions about what EC entailed, and I see a lot of people who haven't tried it assuming it will be a lot of work. for some people it obviously is, but that has not been my experience with it at all, and so i feel compelled to share that for anyone reading the thread that might be considering it.

FWIW, I think you conveyed very well. Your post, and several other pro-EC posts in this thread, have been respectful and compassionate, while still providing accurate information and sharing your personal experience. It's made for a great thread, IMO!!


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## choli

It's been a long time since my kids were diaper age. However, I didn't ec because I have/had a lot more going on in my life between job, kids, friends and house that took precedence over my kids' toileting. Our family tends to evaluate based on the cost/benefit to the whole family.The perceived benefits were far outweighed by the drawbacks.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
I wouldn't call it a "negative book," but I think that yamilee said it well that it came across to me as "self-righteous." Like "this is the only/best way to do things," which is an attitude many people here have listed as a reason that they've been turned off by ec-ers.

I'm sorry that you felt like you "failed," and I do think that this book can make people feel that they're not "doing it right" if they have a harder time picking up on intuition or cues, and if they aren't as comfortable with a diaperless baby. Which is hogwash--there are as many ways to "ec" as there are babies.

This is why I recommend the Gross-Loh book based on what I've heard of it. It sounds like it really does make EC seem like something any parent could do, as much or as little as fits their lifestyle, without a "right" or "wrong" way to do it. (like yamilee said). I also agree that the Bauer mentality seems to be more prevalent in the [on-line] EC world than the Gross-Loh approach.

Personally, I think that kind of "all or nothing" approach does a huge disservice to all parents. We're caught between two extremes--pediatricians tell us to wait until children can literally tell us (in words) that they need to pee, which doesn't happen for many kids until they are over 2 years old, and the extreme diaper free advocates who make it sound like the only other alternative is to go diaper free from birth (not that all--or even most!--diaper free advocates do this, but it is the most sensational image and so gets the most press).

I *SO* wish that everyone could come to the agreement that hey, babies are aware of their elimination from birth, but what you do with that knowledge is up to you. You can help them retain that awareness by giving them occasional opportunities to use the potty--after naps/night, during diaper changes, 10 min after eating, and anytime you use the bathroom--whenever works for your schedule.

There's no pressure to focus on it any more than your child is asking for it, but just put it in your parenting toolbox as something to consider if your baby is fussy (hhmmmm, fussy baby: hungry? tired? gas? dirty diaper? need to pee?). Even a pee in the potty every couple of days still helps babies keep their awareness, and knowing that babies *might* be fussy because they need to pee is a GREAT parenting tool! (Not all babies do it real obviously, but some DO, and for those of us with really fussy babies--one more tool in the parenting toolbox is AWESOME!)

Anyway, I'm rambling, I'll stop. But this is my particular "hot button" issue--the whole judging each others toileting choices. All choices are valid, and there are many shades of grey between ec and not. One of my best friends started giving her ds chances to use the potty starting at 18 months because of watching me ec dd (they're around the same age), and it was great for her. When her dd was born, she asked to borrow my Bauer "Diaper Free" book and I almost didn't want to give it to her. She'd been so successful with her son partly because she didn't think she was "doing ec" and I was afraid to see her take it more seriously with her dd and burn out.

What do you mean by "aware of their elimination"? Yes, I do believe that all babies are aware that something is going on when they have to pee/poop. But it isn't an awareness in the sense that they have a preference to using a potty instead of a diaper. I don't believe that all babies have a natural desire to eliminate in the potty instead of a diaper. Some, but not all. Some babies, like my dd2, don't get upset at a wet diaper, don't give signals, don't have a consistent schedule, and have no qualms at all about eliminating on people, floors, couches. It would have been impossible to EC her unless I spent the majority of the day holding her over the potty. And since she really didn't like the naked, sitting on a potty sensation, that wouldn't have worked either.

Now that she is a year old, I am trying it with her again. But she still doesn't really give any signals for peeing, hates being naked on the toilet, and still doesn't have a consistent schedule for elimination, so I have had a few (and these were just pure luck) catches, and the rest of the time she just uses a diaper.

Like you said, all choices are valid, and I agree. EC isn't a better choice then using diapers, they are both equally valid choices.


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## Carlyle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
What do you mean by "aware of their elimination"? Yes, I do believe that all babies are aware that something is going on when they have to pee/poop.

That's exactly what I mean. Babies are aware of the feeling. They know that "something" is going on, and if you (somewhat consistently) draw their attention to it they'll eventually learn to associate it with being wet and/or poopy. Whether they decide to *care* about being wet or poopy varies widely depending on the child...as do most things!


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## Logan

EC doesnt have to be about getting it on the toilet either. Although thats great. But if your baby doesnt want to be held over the toilet and doesnt seem to signal, then in my opinion cueing them when they do go and changing them ASAP is still EC. There's not one way to EC, there's a million variations. If you're doing it in way that respects what your baby is saying then I dont see how you can 'fail' anything. I know Ive said it heaps, but (to me) it really has nothing to do with 'catches' or 'misses'


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## KristyDi

Short answer to the op, In my estimation the reported benefits of EC don't outweigh the necessary work.

Slightly longer answer; I already spent a ton of time researching birth choices, breastfeeding, baby led solids, babywearing, vaxing, etc. The benefits of ec-ing don't seem like all that big of a deal to me and the "consequences" of diapering seem mostly theoretical so adding another thing to the pile of new stuff to learn just didn't interest me.

I'm sure I _could_ ec if I wanted to, I just haven't seen anything compelling enough to make me believe I _should_.


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## EviesMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Logan* 
EC doesnt have to be about getting it on the toilet either. Although thats great. But if your baby doesnt want to be held over the toilet and doesnt seem to signal, then in my opinion cueing them when they do go and changing them ASAP is still EC. There's not one way to EC, there's a million variations. If you're doing it in way that respects what your baby is saying then I dont see how you can 'fail' anything. I know Ive said it heaps, but (to me) it really has nothing to do with 'catches' or 'misses'

So.... the fact that my diapered toddler tells me "Poop!" and "Peeeeeeesssss!" And sometimes now at 2, says yes when I ask if he wants to sit on the potty after he says "Poop!" this qualifies as EC?

I've generally known when he was peeing or pooping, and generally try to change him quickly. I suppose it's communication about his elimination, but I don't consider that EC, personally. He still uses a diaper, and has for 2 years.

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about. He's currently sick, so he's been telling me before he pukes. Gives me a moment to point him away from the computer at least!







He even tells me right before or after he burps or farts









The constant "EC instead" as an answer for every cd issue on my old board was what turned me completely off. I mean, the people I know who EC, still use sposies. Not as many of them as a diapered baby, sure, but they use them. So, if you EC and cloth diaper, you're still going to have the same issues re: wicking, fabric-softener-dipe-havoc, stripping, etc. I don't see how "EC instead" is an answer to "my diapers are leaking, heavy wetter or need stripping?"


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## Carlyle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about.

I dunno, I'm sure it's not the same for all kids. But I swear, the first time I gave my dd the chance to pee in the potty (at 3 months old), she just grinned and craned around to look up at me like "FINALLY!" I think for my dd, she felt the sensation of needing to pee and wasn't sure what to do about it, so she cried (not all kids do this, I know). So when I helped her do it in a way that felt good to her, she appreciated it and felt "listened to" from a very young age. I dunno. Like I said, I know it's different for all babies, and I'm totally putting my "spin" on her reactions. That's just why it felt more bonding for us.

That said, there were also times where I offered the potty too frequently and pissed her off...definitely less cool on the bonding angle. I think the more laid back you can be about it and REALLY follow your kid's lead, the better off you all are. Meaning, if your kid "signals" that they need to go really well, then great...help 'em out. If your kid fusses on the potty, then great, let 'em use the diaper.


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## Logan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
So.... the fact that my diapered toddler tells me "Poop!" and "Peeeeeeesssss!" And sometimes now at 2, says yes when I ask if he wants to sit on the potty after he says "Poop!" this qualifies as EC?

I've generally known when he was peeing or pooping, and generally try to change him quickly. I suppose it's communication about his elimination, but I don't consider that EC, personally. He still uses a diaper, and has for 2 years.

No ignoring them when you know they need to go is definitely not EC. I was referring to the poster who was trying to EC but her daughter didnt give any discernible signals. However changing them as soon as they go is definitely better than not.

The reason most ECers will recommend EC, for example in the case of leaking night nappies, is because we simply cant fathom leaving them in a wet nappy *on purpose* all night and actually trying to boost it so it will hold even more wees. Actually _wanting_ them to sit in a wet nappy is unquestionable to most ECers. There are better options than that and thats probably why people tried to recommend other options to those things.

And my kids will often smile up at me as I hold them over the toilet too. The first time my son went he smiled like the previous poster described as in 'Finally!' It was relief and contentment. But they both used to scream when they wet their nappy thats for sure!


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## InMediasRes

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 

There were accidents and there was a "potty pause" at around 9ish months, where we were missing all the time and there was more than just a little pee getting past those trainers, so we switched her back to diapers without covers full time until she was using the potty consistently again, which was maybe 2 months later. There _were_ times where it was frustrating, but I do not at all believe it was any more frustrating _for us_ than potty training the old-fashioned way would've been.

This. DD doesn't like to be wet, but she also is refusing the potty big time. It's not the destination that counts to us, it's the journey. She already knows about the potty and is used to it. If she wants a break, fine, but I think we laid the groundwork already for good potty habits in toddlerhood. It can be frustrating, but mostly I find it fun. And my house isn't covered in poop either.

Quote:

Sure there are stories of 2.5-year-olds getting up one day and deciding to use the potty full time all on their own, but the _majority_ of people I know who don't EC and do potty train their kids the "regular" way have found many aspects of it _very_ frustrating.

If people are honest, diapering a toddler and especially potty training a toddler or young child are generally not enjoyable experiences, no matter how cute your cloth diapers are. Holding down a 2.5 year old whose rear end is covered in poop, as she tries to escape because she hates having her diaper changed is not fun or cute, and I've seen at least a hundred posts at MDC with moms asking how they can make this exact scenario less disgusting, less messy and less upsetting for all involved, so I'm pretty sure they're finding it stressful. Therefore, pretending that diapering prevents some sort of universal stress experienced only by those who EC is either dishonest or misinformed. BOTH scenarios have their own stressful moments. It's up to each individual family to decide which will be less stressful for them, but it's simply not true that EC universally increases stress levels and workloads for parents.
This is the whole reason I did EC with DD. We didn't with DS (he was too old when I found out about it), and I found PLing to be a completely stressful nightmare situation with him. He still poops in a diaper and I don't see any end to that in the near future. Wrestling a 40lb 2.5yo to the ground to change him while he screams bloody murder is WAAAAYYYY more stressful than holding my DD for a few minutes so she can poop on the potty. I'm hoping to skip that whole fiasco completely. And the minor frustration of EC is totally outweighed by how enjoyable it is for me. I realize that this is not everyone's experience.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
So.... the fact that my diapered toddler tells me "Poop!" and "Peeeeeeesssss!" And sometimes now at 2, says yes when I ask if he wants to sit on the potty after he says "Poop!" this qualifies as EC?

I've generally known when he was peeing or pooping, and generally try to change him quickly. I suppose it's communication about his elimination, but I don't consider that EC, personally. He still uses a diaper, and has for 2 years.

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about. He's currently sick, so he's been telling me before he pukes. Gives me a moment to point him away from the computer at least!







He even tells me right before or after he burps or farts









The constant "EC instead" as an answer for every cd issue on my old board was what turned me completely off. I mean, the people I know who EC, still use sposies. Not as many of them as a diapered baby, sure, but they use them. So, if you EC and cloth diaper, you're still going to have the same issues re: wicking, fabric-softener-dipe-havoc, stripping, etc. I don't see how "EC instead" is an answer to "my diapers are leaking, heavy wetter or need stripping?"

a 2 year old and an infant are really worlds apart. i would expect anyone to respond to a 2 year olds verbal exclamation that they are about to poo or pee by offering the toilet. yes, that's communicating about elimination, but IMO it's not EC at that point (though i do think that PL'ing can be done using some EC tools and I always encourage my friends who are doing PL'ing to do so if they ask). the point of EC, IMO, is that you don't wait until they are developmentally capable of verbally exclaiming "poop!" or "pee!" before you respond to their communication about needing to eliminate.

also, i don't see how anyone can argue that responding to a need when a child *does* communicate it - regardless of the need - would not enhance a child's trust in their parents vs. the alternative of not responding to the communicated need. it's not a matter of "your child won't trust you anymore" obviously, but I don't see why it's so hard to get that it would enhance the bond and the feelings of trust when their communicated need is heard and responded to. there are *lots* of parenting choices that can enhance that feeling of bonding and trust, but it doesn't mean that if you don't do them your child won't trust you or there will not be any bond. it's not any more black and white with EC than with anything else, but it can and does enhance that bond - for both the mother and the child. for example, my mom and i are best friends. i love and respect her and have always felt well-bonded and trust her implicitly. she's a great mom. she only nursed me for 6 months, i crib slept from birth with some CIO, etc. etc. but it's the big-picture and the overall intent of the parent that determines the basic feeling of trust and bond - all the rest of it is just gravy, just icing on the cake that can enhance what already exists.

as for the way that EC can answer diaper questions... EC'ers just don't tend to have those issues with diapers. most don't even use diaper covers at all except for outings, and when you change immediately after every "miss" you're not going to be dealing with a lot of leaks/wicking. those issues usually come from heavily soaked diapers. IME, my oldest who i thought was a "heavy wetter" was actually a frequent pee-er, so when i changed her after an hour in the morning and the diaper was soaked, i came to find out once starting EC that she had actually peed 3 or 4 times in that period of time, not once like i had assumed. so what i needed wasn't a thicker more absorbent diaper, what i needed was to be more aware of how often she actually went so i could change her more frequently. same with night time - i had switched to sposies at night because i thought she was "flooding" her diaper with one heavy pee and the cloth couldn't hold it all fast enough. what was really happening was it was already wet and by the 3rd time she peed at night even the big huge cloth concoction i had stuffed her into wasn't enough to hold it all in. EC'ers tend to prefer less-absorbent diapers that don't have 'feel dry' layers or lots of thickness and absorbency because they mask the feeling of wetness for the child and thick diapers often keep the parent from noticing when the baby has peed just once. thin diapers with less absorbency don't usually need to be stripped, they tend to clean up quickly and easily and dry fast. for me, EC *was* an answer to pretty much every cloth diaper problem I ever had. once i switched to thin diapers with little absorbency, stopped using covers at home and tuned into my child's elimination patterns, all my diaper issues went away.

on a side note i think it's odd that all the EC'ers you know use sposies. I've never met a single one (unless their child was in daycare and it was required, and even then they used cloth at home). sposies hide the feeling of wetness, and EC'ers want their kids to maintain their awareness of peeing=feeling wet. plus i've never been able to tell when a child has just peed once when using a sposie, which is integral to being able to cue and to respond. so cloth is hands down the preferred method of diaper back-up among EC'ers.

ETA... just re-reading your post... you think that it wouldn't make a difference to your child whether you responded to "i need to puke" by continuing to do what you're doing, vs. helping him find a receptacle and let him know it'll be OK?


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## felix23

Question for those who think EC is always the best, what about the cases (like mine and at least one other here in this thread) where the babies hated being held over a potty? Even if they gave signals, wouldn't it be kind of mean to stress them out by holding them over a potty instead of letting them use the diaper which didn't stress them out? Isn't the whole point of being AP listening to your baby? So if the baby hates potty time and likes diapers, wouldn't the most AP method be, even if they signal, let them use a diaper?

The over all feel I've gotten from this thread is that most (not all, but most) of the ECers feel like it is *always* best for the baby. Even though I attempt to EC, I don't feel like it is the best, or even the most natural, way.


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## pixiepunk

it has been reiterated over and over again by ECers in this thread that *listening to your child's communication* is the cornerstone to EC. I know I said in one post, listening to what my child was telling me about her elimination... even when what she was saying was "damn it, i don't want to sit on the potty right now, mom!"

but EC'ers will also tell you that how a child feels about eliminating, as well as which receptacle they prefer and the position in which they eliminate, is not a static thing. what *is* static with a growing, changing baby? so while a baby might fuss for a moment due to the change in air temperature or position, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are expressing a preference to soil themselves. sometimes, the reasons of which are only known to the child, they prefer a different receptacle or a different hold or a different location in order to be happy and eliminate - that's all part of the communication, responding to the child and discerning what they need at any given time. my DD2 has two little potties, they are slightly different shapes/sizes. and sometimes she wants the white one and sometimes she wants the blue one, and sometimes she wants the big potty (and sometimes she wants to face backwards on the big potty and sometimes she wants to face forwards







). who knows why but her? but if i thought when i put her on the white potty that she just didn't want to go and shrugged and put a diaper on her, i wouldn't really be listening to what she had to say, i'd just be giving up trying.

many babies cry when you change their diapers, and i don't think anyone here would suggest that it would be more AP to let your child fester for hours in a filthy diaper rather than remove the soiled diaper, even if doing so caused a brief moment of discomfort and upset for the baby. because even if a child *doesn't* express upset or discomfort in a dirty diaper, *we* know that it is not sanitary to keep them in it, even if it makes them happy to keep it on, and sad to change it. sometimes my 19 month old cries when i try to put gloves and a hat on her to go outside and play. but guess what, i'm not going to let her get frostbite just because she does not want to wear gloves. being AP doesn't mean letting your child do anything they want in order to avoid ever having them express a moment's discontent. and sometimes a child's needs and a child's wants are not the same thing, and that results in a temporary unhappiness that usually rectifies itself immediately once the child realizes that their needs were met. "i don't want to sit at the dinner table, i want to keep playing! waaaah.... oh wait, that food looks delicious, i'm starving! yummy!" yes, there are some kids who will always stop when hungry and ask for food, and others who'd practically starve if you left it up to them to ask to be fed. and many kids in the middle who sometimes stop and sometimes need to be gently led. elimination is not any different, some kids will make it blatantly obvious when they have to go and stop everything to take care of it, and others need regular reminders and a mom who stays aware of subtle signals and the clock to take care of that need. and many others will sometimes stop and sometimes need to be gently led. and maybe if they protest dinner time a lot one particular evening, they're really not hungry, and you leave them alone to play. and maybe if they're really protesting the potty, it means they don't need to go right now. i'm not a "you're going to sit here and eat everything on your plate if you're here till the morning" mom, and i'm not a "you're going to sit on this potty till something comes out" mom either. that's not respectful, that's forcing your will upon your child and it has no place under the umbrella of EC.

i don't know any EC'ers who would continue to try and keep a baby held over a receptacle or on a potty/toilet if they were arching their back, really crying or showing other strong signs of protest. that is child abuse, IMO, not EC. almost all of us have dealt with the "potty pause" - a period of time, usually during a developmental milestone, teething or illness, when a child just doesn't much want to deal with the potty. so you use diapers for backup for everyone's sanity, you cue and change immediately when they are using the diaper, you continue to offer and respect the child's refusal, and after a day or a week or a month or whatever it happens to be, the child is back to the potty again, as if there was no pause at all, and often with increased interest and awareness. it's all part of the *communication* which for most of us is the entire point in the whole thing, and not having to clean up poopy diapers and consistent dry nights at 4 months old and potential early potty independence and the rest of it are just the icing on the cake.

i know there's been a lot of dissing of Ingrid Bauer's book, but one thing she said that really hit home for me was that, much like a nursing strike, a potty pause is often an indication that something is going on. maybe it's simply an illness or milestone that's got baby's attention. maybe it's the baby's way of expressing that there's been a lot of disruption in his/her life and they need extra attention and snuggles. maybe it's simply a sign that the parent needs to re-examine the child's signals, that baby is signaling in a new way that the parent hasn't caught onto yet. it's all part of the journey, and as you figure these things out it enhances your understanding of your child and how s/he communicates what s/he needs.


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## EviesMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
a 2 year old and an infant are really worlds apart. i would expect anyone to respond to a 2 year olds verbal exclamation that they are about to poo or pee by offering the toilet. yes, that's communicating about elimination, but IMO it's not EC at that point (though i do think that PL'ing can be done using some EC tools and I always encourage my friends who are doing PL'ing to do so if they ask). the point of EC, IMO, is that you don't wait until they are developmentally capable of verbally exclaiming "poop!" or "pee!" before you respond to their communication about needing to eliminate.

also, i don't see how anyone can argue that responding to a need when a child *does* communicate it - regardless of the need - would not enhance a child's trust in their parents vs. the alternative of not responding to the communicated need. it's not a matter of "your child won't trust you anymore" obviously, but I don't see why it's so hard to get that it would enhance the bond and the feelings of trust when their communicated need is heard and responded to. there are *lots* of parenting choices that can enhance that feeling of bonding and trust, but it doesn't mean that if you don't do them your child won't trust you or there will not be any bond. it's not any more black and white with EC than with anything else, but it can and does enhance that bond - for both the mother and the child. for example, my mom and i are best friends. i love and respect her and have always felt well-bonded and trust her implicitly. she's a great mom. she only nursed me for 6 months, i crib slept from birth with some CIO, etc. etc. but it's the big-picture and the overall intent of the parent that determines the basic feeling of trust and bond - all the rest of it is just gravy, just icing on the cake that can enhance what already exists.

as for the way that EC can answer diaper questions... EC'ers just don't tend to have those issues with diapers. most don't even use diaper covers at all except for outings, and when you change immediately after every "miss" you're not going to be dealing with a lot of leaks/wicking. those issues usually come from heavily soaked diapers. IME, my oldest who i thought was a "heavy wetter" was actually a frequent pee-er, so when i changed her after an hour in the morning and the diaper was soaked, i came to find out once starting EC that she had actually peed 3 or 4 times in that period of time, not once like i had assumed. so what i needed wasn't a thicker more absorbent diaper, what i needed was to be more aware of how often she actually went so i could change her more frequently. same with night time - i had switched to sposies at night because i thought she was "flooding" her diaper with one heavy pee and the cloth couldn't hold it all fast enough. what was really happening was it was already wet and by the 3rd time she peed at night even the big huge cloth concoction i had stuffed her into wasn't enough to hold it all in. EC'ers tend to prefer less-absorbent diapers that don't have 'feel dry' layers or lots of thickness and absorbency because they mask the feeling of wetness for the child and thick diapers often keep the parent from noticing when the baby has peed just once. thin diapers with less absorbency don't usually need to be stripped, they tend to clean up quickly and easily and dry fast. for me, EC *was* an answer to pretty much every cloth diaper problem I ever had. once i switched to thin diapers with little absorbency, stopped using covers at home and tuned into my child's elimination patterns, all my diaper issues went away.

on a side note i think it's odd that all the EC'ers you know use sposies. I've never met a single one (unless their child was in daycare and it was required, and even then they used cloth at home). sposies hide the feeling of wetness, and EC'ers want their kids to maintain their awareness of peeing=feeling wet. plus i've never been able to tell when a child has just peed once when using a sposie, which is integral to being able to cue and to respond. so cloth is hands down the preferred method of diaper back-up among EC'ers.

ETA... just re-reading your post... you think that it wouldn't make a difference to your child whether you responded to "i need to puke" by continuing to do what you're doing, vs. helping him find a receptacle and let him know it'll be OK?

I'm in NYC, so the 2 ECers I know, use disposables when they use diapers. Most people don't have washers and dryers, so if you're not using enough cloth to make a special trip to the laundromat for them, I'm sure it would be more of a pain to EC and cloth.

And truly, what turned me off of EC is the constant refrain to "do EC instead of CD" on a cloth diapering board, where people have cloth diapering questions. You deal with less cd problems, that's great for you, but it's a little like answering questions about getting out of debt by answering that you've never have trouble with debt because you have a huge nest egg. That's nice, but it's completely irrelevant to the question someone asked.

It seems to me like 75% of the answers to the original question "why don't you EC?" are some variant of "ECers using holier-than-thou tones and language." Repeating that everyone is wrong and it isn't harder than what they're doing isn't addressing the main problem of spreading EC gospel, which is tone and attitude of its public proponents.

I'm not sure what you mean by your ETA. He gives me about 5 seconds of warning before he pukes, and I hold him. There's no time to find a "proper receptacle," and actually trying to run him to the bathroom or over a bucket or something versus comforting him and holding him I think would be less respectful. He's not going to be more comfortable held out to puke in the toilet than he is puking in my arms onto a towel or the floor. He just wants to be held, the "receptacle" doesn't matter. the also sick 5 year old wants to go to the bathroom to puke, but she also wants to be held. Neither one wants to be run and jostled there in a hurry. So are you trying to tell me that what I'm doing is wrong? Disrespectful? Or what? I just get covered in puke and then change us both.


----------



## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
I'm in NYC, so the 2 ECers I know, use disposables when they use diapers. Most people don't have washers and dryers, so if you're not using enough cloth to make a special trip to the laundromat for them, I'm sure it would be more of a pain to EC and cloth.

And truly, what turned me off of EC is the constant refrain to "do EC instead of CD" on a cloth diapering board, where people have cloth diapering questions. You deal with less cd problems, that's great for you, but it's a little like answering questions about getting out of debt by answering that you've never have trouble with debt because you have a huge nest egg. That's nice, but it's completely irrelevant to the question someone asked.

It seems to me like 75% of the answers to the original question "why don't you EC?" are some variant of "ECers using holier-than-thou tones and language." Repeating that everyone is wrong and it isn't harder than what they're doing isn't addressing the main problem of spreading EC gospel, which is tone and attitude of its public proponents.

in general, people want to hear information that supports their choices. people who have an epidural get all up in arms when the words "natural birth" are used to refer to vaginal birth without intervention. "what, my birth was against nature?!" sometimes you can't express what a life-changing experience your vaginal birth was to someone who had a c-section without them feeling like a failure, though that was surely not your intent. no one can express to an acquaintance who says they didn't BF because it was "too hard" that their experience was that BF'ing was super easy and convenient, without the bottle feeder feeling defensive and judged. when asked why you would co-sleep by a CIO/crib sleeping family, you express that you like to know your LO is safe and don't feel comfortable letting them cry, and suddenly you are saying that they don't care if their children are safe and they are a horrible person for letting their child "self-sooth." so let's add to that list that people who FT diaper and express that EC is "gross, messy and involves staring at your child's every move all day long to discern if they're about to take a piss" don't want to know that hasn't been most peoples' experience with it at all, because apparently sharing said experience is a direct attack, turns everyone against EC, and akin to telling someone they don't love their child.

got it.


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## pixiepunk

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 

I'm not sure what you mean by your ETA. He gives me about 5 seconds of warning before he pukes, and I hold him. There's no time to find a "proper receptacle," and actually trying to run him to the bathroom or over a bucket or something versus comforting him and holding him I think would be less respectful. He's not going to be more comfortable held out to puke in the toilet than he is puking in my arms onto a towel or the floor. He just wants to be held, the "receptacle" doesn't matter. the also sick 5 year old wants to go to the bathroom to puke, but she also wants to be held. Neither one wants to be run and jostled there in a hurry. So are you trying to tell me that what I'm doing is wrong? Disrespectful? Or what? I just get covered in puke and then change us both.

WHAT?!?! No. You said:

Quote:

I don't see how holding them over a potty or giving them a signal to let you know they're going would be more bonding or valuable than any of the other bodily functions he also tells me about. He's currently sick, so he's been telling me before he pukes. Gives me a moment to point him away from the computer at least! He even tells me right before or after he burps or farts
you are reponding to their need. your child will remember forever being held and loved while he got sick. the opposite of that would be child about to puke, you ignoring it and continuing to do what you want to do. you don't think there's a huge chasm of difference between the two responses? one that enhances your child's existing trust that you are there for him, and one that says "i can't be bothered with your mess right now." ?! EC isn't just about dangling a child over a receptacle. I don't know how that could be made any plainer. it's about listening to the child and helping them take care of one of their basic needs. responding. being there. snuggling with them, getting excited with them when they are clearly proud of themselves for what they just did. just like you probably are for every other thing they do from the minute they are born until they can take care of almost everything for themselves. for some reason our society has deemed elimination exempt from that same attention and respect, so it's hard for people to believe that paying direct attention to that need might enhance the trust or the bond between a child and his/her parent. but it does. do you care? is it important to you? that's up to you. but just like paying attention and responding to any other need your child has, it can and does deepen the connection between you.


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## EviesMom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
so let's add to that list that people who FT diaper and express that EC is "gross, messy and involves staring at your child's every move all day long to discern if they're about to take a piss" don't want to know that hasn't been most peoples' experience with it at all, because apparently sharing said experience is a direct attack, turns everyone against EC, and akin to telling someone they don't love their child.

That's not something I said, and I haven't seen it elsewhere in the thread, but its a looooong thread. I've seen lots of answers to a question that wasn't asked though. This thread is titled "If you don't EC," not "here's why all the non-ECers should EC."

I haven't had any trouble with the ECers I know in person. They know I cd, and say at most "Is it a hassle?" No, not for us, in our family, with our schedule, with our washer dryer access. I can respond "Isn't it a hassle to EC?" and hear that no, not for them, in their family, with their schedule, with their sposies and no washer-dryer.









One EC friend hates wiping poopy butts and wouldn't want to deal with poopy cloth. I get twitchy at the idea of cleaning out a little potty (I don't have one!), or the sink, have a dog that would lunge for such a thing (*that* is ewwwwww!) and dislike the idea of using more public bathrooms than absolutely necessary. She has a big bathroom, I have a tiny one. I know these issues "could" be overcome if I wished to EC, but I don't see how that would be "better" than the cd groove we have going.

I truly don't see how either one is more work or more respectful or loving. EC isn't necessarily harder than other options, and works great for some people, I think most MDCers know that. It's also not the answer to every problem with diapering or potty learning.


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## JTA Mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
in general, people want to hear information that supports their choices. people who have an epidural get all up in arms when the words "natural birth" are used to refer to vaginal birth without intervention. "what, my birth was against nature?!" sometimes you can't express what a life-changing experience your vaginal birth was to someone who had a c-section without them feeling like a failure, though that was surely not your intent. no one can express to an acquaintance who says they didn't BF because it was "too hard" that their experience was that BF'ing was super easy and convenient, without the bottle feeder feeling defensive and judged. when asked why you would co-sleep by a CIO/crib sleeping family, you express that you like to know your LO is safe and don't feel comfortable letting them cry, and suddenly you are saying that they don't care if their children are safe and they are a horrible person for letting their child "self-sooth." so let's add to that list that people who FT diaper and express that EC is "gross, messy and involves staring at your child's every move all day long to discern if they're about to take a piss" don't want to know that hasn't been most peoples' experience with it at all, because apparently sharing said experience is a direct attack, turns everyone against EC, and akin to telling someone they don't love their child.

got it.

I'm going to respectfully disagree here. I had a c/s. Not one I wanted, but it doesn't bother ME to hear others wax on about their drug free all natural birth. Not one bit. I was induced due to medical reasons. I got an epidural after 10 hours of pitocin hell. Do I feel 'less than' someone who birthed without drugs? Nope.

As for breastfeeding, it's still not something I enjoy. It was HARD the first few months. And I must admit, once ds turned one and got a few bottles of cow's milk, I felt some relief. I no longer had to deal with every 10 minute nursings. That lasted forever. So, for me, sure, some moms might wax on about how easy, no-issues they had with bf. Does that make me feel bad? Nope.

Co-sleeping, for ME, was the right choice. For others it's NOT. I'm not going to go into a whole diatribe trying to convince someone it's better than crib sleeping.

What I hear from this thread is that all and any excuses/reasons are seen as 1) not valid, and 2) misrepresentative of EC. Even when people who HAVE tried EC talk about why it didn't work for them, the consensus is that it was because there was 'something wrong' with the baby.

People feel JUDGED when others invalidate their reasons. For the women who stopped breastfeeding because it was too hard--maybe it really was for them. Just because someone can bf after getting thrush and mastitis doesn't mean everyone can. Just because someone can go through labor without painkillers DOESN'T mean everyone can. Just because a lot of people like co-sleeping DOESN'T mean everyone does/can.

And I think, that's what a lot of people who DON'T EC were trying to say. They gave their reasons. Then others rebutted/invalidated their reasons. THAT made people mad. Because, really, who is All-Knowing enough to determine which reasons are valid or invalid?

Seriously, WHAT reason would be a good reason to NOT EC?

Ami


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## Sk8ermaiden

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JTA Mom* 
People feel JUDGED when others invalidate their reasons. For the women who stopped breastfeeding because it was too hard--maybe it really was for them. Just because someone can bf after getting thrush and mastitis doesn't mean everyone can. Just because someone can go through labor without painkillers DOESN'T mean everyone can. Just because a lot of people like co-sleeping DOESN'T mean everyone does/can.

I was going to say this too. I had a c/s but LOVE to hear about natural births (even if I do get jealous







). I absolutely HATE breastfeeding and hurt through every nursing session, so I totally get when someone says it was too hard. I like to be close to my baby, but the same room is close enough and I do not feel judged when others relate their reasons for cosleeping. Yet somehow, many (not even most, but many) of the ECers on this thread have been pretty judgmental in how they come across.

I love, love, love babywearing. I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I do then to evangelize about it, but I still can understand that some people don't and they have valid reasons for that. Even if they say it's too difficult and my personal experience is that it's a million times easier than lugging around a stroller - that doesn't mean that they feel the same way.

And just for the record - I actually tried this a little bit this week. I already know she doesn't ever signal pee and doesn't signal poop until she actually _is_ pooping, so I don't know how that would go. BUT I held her over the potty whenever she woke up and after eating. We didn't catch anything, but even if we had, it confirmed for me that I find it to be a huge hassle and much more inconvenient than changing diapers. No thank you - it's just not for us.

I agree though! It seems that people were asked for reasons - but the tone of the thread is that there are no valid reasons.


----------



## Plummeting

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
I dunno, I'm sure it's not the same for all kids. But I swear, the first time I gave my dd the chance to pee in the potty (at 3 months old), she just grinned and craned around to look up at me like "FINALLY!" I think for my dd, she felt the sensation of needing to pee and wasn't sure what to do about it, so she cried (not all kids do this, I know). So when I helped her do it in a way that felt good to her, she appreciated it and felt "listened to" from a very young age. I dunno. Like I said, I know it's different for all babies, and I'm totally putting my "spin" on her reactions. That's just why it felt more bonding for us.

I think my DD was the same way. She would get fussy _before_ she peed or pooped. Once it was out, she didn't actually care about being wet or messy - she just didn't like the way she felt right before she did it. Whether that meant she didn't want to do it in her diaper or she just felt uncomfortable before going, I have no way of knowing. I just know she got a little more active and a little fussy right before going. Even that only lasted the first few months. After that, nothing. Maybe that was because we mostly had it down and got most of it in the potty, so she felt no need to get upset, but I'm guessing it was more just a natural progression for her, because she didn't freak out when it _didn't_ get in the potty, and therefore _did_ wind up in her diaper.


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## Plummeting

I'm sorry if people are upset that people who do EC responded to the thread.
Back when DD was a baby I really didn't get why people didn't EC. A few years down the road and a lot more experience later, I do get it. Parenting tends to do that to you - the longer you parent, the more you understand why other people do things differently sometimes. I just thought that it was worthwhile to point out that EC is not universally experienced as more difficult, more of a hassle or more stressful than diapering. That is the experience of some and that's perfectly valid. It's just incorrect for people to claim that EC automatically _is_ any of the above. That's only their opinion and experience - it's not a universal truth. I responded with my experience as an ECer because I felt that it was being viewed by some as a universal truth, rather than as any individual's personal opinion or experience.

I have lots of cute cloth diapers waiting for the new baby, but I have literally zero desire to be changing poopy dipes on a toddler. _My_ personal opinion is that _that_ is too much of a hassle. Not everyone feels the same way, so if I were to view it as some universal truth, I would be wrong.


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## JTA Mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 
I'm sorry if people are upset that people who do EC responded to the thread.
It's just incorrect for people to claim that EC automatically _is_ any of the above. That's only their opinion and experience - it's not a universal truth. I responded with my experience as an ECer because I felt that it was being viewed by some as a universal truth, rather than as any individual's personal opinion or experience.

I have lots of cute cloth diapers waiting for the new baby, but I have literally zero desire to be changing poopy dipes on a toddler. _My_ personal opinion is that _that_ is too much of a hassle. Not everyone feels the same way, so if I were to view it as some universal truth, I would be wrong.

First off, no one is upset because people who DO EC responded. At least, I'm not. Nor has anyone said EC was universally X.

Where people got annoyed was when _their_ reason was invalidated. Just like it's not right to invalidate *your* feeling that EC is easier than changing a poopy diaper, it's not right for you (not speaking directly to you, Plummeting, a general you) to say to someone that because _they_ found EC to be more hassle than changing a poopy diaper that they are wrong/bad because of *fill in the blank*.

My son HATED to be worn. Hated the wrap, sling, pouch and mei tai. Doesn't mean I was doing it wrong, or that we are less attached somehow because I didn't wear him. In this thread, it seems to be that whatever someone's reason for not ECing, it's 'wrong' or somehow assumed to be a blanket statement against EC, when all it is is a _personal_ reason why they didn't.

Ami


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## Carlyle

Sorry if I've offended...I'm really trying to be neutral and nice to both ec'ers and non-ec'ers alike. I'm feeling hurt by all of the "the ec'ers on this thread are judgmental" type comments. I know that some have come across that way, and I hope that I haven't. (for what it's worth, I'm also hurt and saddened when I see ec'ers using terms like "poo-bag" and "sit in their own filth") I was hoping that some of us on this thread might get to a place where we understand others' point of view better.

I feel like I've learned a lot, and I hope that people haven't been so hurt by some of the ec folks' choice of language that they've missed what others of us are trying to share. I've just been trying hard to answer some of the questions about ec that have come up and to speak up a little bit in response to the "I just wouldn't want pee/poop all over my house" type comments that I saw upthread. It hurts me to think that this is how people perceive me (covered in fecal matter and watching my dd like a hawk to the exclusion of everything else in my life) and it was hard to sit and read it without responding (even though I recognize that this is a thread of reasons that people don't ec).

So yeah. I hope people realize that I really do respect all diapering/ecing choices and that I'm not trying to evangelize ec by posting on this thread--just hoping to further a little more mutual understanding and respect.


----------



## Carlyle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
Question for those who think EC is always the best, what about the cases (like mine and at least one other here in this thread) where the babies hated being held over a potty? Even if they gave signals, wouldn't it be kind of mean to stress them out by holding them over a potty instead of letting them use the diaper which didn't stress them out? Isn't the whole point of being AP listening to your baby? So if the baby hates potty time and likes diapers, wouldn't the most AP method be, even if they signal, let them use a diaper?

Well, I don't think that ec is always the best, but I'll tell you what I plan to do if any of my future babies acted the same way yours did. Please don't take this as me saying this is what YOU should have done or anything, I'm just trying to give you an idea of what a person in this situation could do if they still really wanted to do ec (since you asked).

If my baby didn't like being naked or held over a potty as a newborn/young baby, I would probably just focus on getting them used to my "ssss" noise and to associate it with the feeling of peeing/pooping. Any time that I noticed that they were peeing or pooping (during a diaper change, during bum-airing naked time, if I were carrying them in a sling and noticed them getting warm in the diaper region, if I smelled a poop brewing, etc), I would say "sssss, you're peeing!" or something like that.

Every few days or whatever felt right, I'd try the potty again at a likely time. If s/he protested, I would stop. I would also try to make any "potty offers" as low key as possible. I would do it with a potty-bowl between my legs and just nudge diaper to the side without fully taking it off, to help him/her feel more secure than a full on diaper-off over the big potty thing (I got good at this with dd, but it would definitely be harder without practice). Things change so quickly with babies, and I would hope that s/he stopped minding an occasional naked butt after a while.

Just reread some of your posts. With a 1 year old, I'd probably keep it even more low key until I saw him/her showing signs that s/he was more interested. I'd offer verbally a couple of times a month--if she fussed, I'd stop. Letting her know when I was using the potty and ask her if she wanted to come too. Talking about what I was doing while I was changing her diaper. Stuff like that. I'd pay more attention (and probably get a book about using the potty or something) around 18 months--I've seen a TON of babies (ec and non ec'd alike) go through some sort of "window of opportunity" around that time. They just seem more aware of peeing/pooping. Grabbing diapers when they go, following adults to the potty, playing with the potty, sitting on the potty for fun or to imitate mom/dad, etc.

Just for the record, I think ec is not the best choice if a parent just isn't into it (for any of the reasons mentioned in this thread) or if they're SO into it that they forget that it isn't about getting the pee/poop in the potty, it's about listening to their kid.


----------



## yamilee21

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
... It seems to me like 75% of the answers to the original question "why don't you EC?" are some variant of "ECers using holier-than-thou tones and language." Repeating that everyone is wrong and it isn't harder than what they're doing isn't addressing the main problem of spreading EC gospel, which is tone and attitude of its public proponents.

I practice EC, but I agree with this completely. And it isn't just toward people who do not practice EC, a lot of times, when EC-practicing parents mention going through not-so-smooth times with EC, the responses tend to have an underlying message of "it's because you're doing something wrong" or, even more annoyingly, finding all kinds of excuses that have nothing to do with the problem, or offering illogical solutions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
... if they're SO into it that they forget that it isn't about getting the pee/poop in the potty, it's about listening to their kid.

Many EC parents do forget, and sometimes are too focused on bragging or mocking parents who are "stuck" changing diapers. I think that may be more because EC is relatively rare in U.S./western societies, and U.S. society in particular is so goal-oriented - everything has to be done for a benefit. People are looking for results; if EC could absolutely guarantee a 100% toilet trained child by 12 months, maybe everyone would do it. But if the results are merely a child who eventually trains at the same age as his/her non-EC peers, with maybe fewer diapers used/bought along the way, the value is not as obvious.

As for listening to the kid, well, my kid was very verbal, and sometimes explicitly told me he *wanted* to use a diaper to relieve himself. He was clearly communicating, but few people in the EC world are interested in hearing about that kind of communication.


----------



## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlyle* 
Well, I don't think that ec is always the best, but I'll tell you what I plan to do if any of my future babies acted the same way yours did. Please don't take this as me saying this is what YOU should have done or anything, I'm just trying to give you an idea of what a person in this situation could do if they still really wanted to do ec (since you asked).

If my baby didn't like being naked or held over a potty as a newborn/young baby, I would probably just focus on getting them used to my "ssss" noise and to associate it with the feeling of peeing/pooping. Any time that I noticed that they were peeing or pooping (during a diaper change, during bum-airing naked time, if I were carrying them in a sling and noticed them getting warm in the diaper region, if I smelled a poop brewing, etc), I would say "sssss, you're peeing!" or something like that.

Every few days or whatever felt right, I'd try the potty again at a likely time. If s/he protested, I would stop. I would also try to make any "potty offers" as low key as possible. I would do it with a potty-bowl between my legs and just nudge diaper to the side without fully taking it off, to help him/her feel more secure than a full on diaper-off over the big potty thing (I got good at this with dd, but it would definitely be harder without practice). Things change so quickly with babies, and I would hope that s/he stopped minding an occasional naked butt after a while.

Just reread some of your posts. With a 1 year old, I'd probably keep it even more low key until I saw him/her showing signs that s/he was more interested. I'd offer verbally a couple of times a month--if she fussed, I'd stop. Letting her know when I was using the potty and ask her if she wanted to come too. Talking about what I was doing while I was changing her diaper. Stuff like that. I'd pay more attention (and probably get a book about using the potty or something) around 18 months--I've seen a TON of babies (ec and non ec'd alike) go through some sort of "window of opportunity" around that time. They just seem more aware of peeing/pooping. Grabbing diapers when they go, following adults to the potty, playing with the potty, sitting on the potty for fun or to imitate mom/dad, etc.

Just for the record, I think ec is not the best choice if a parent just isn't into it (for any of the reasons mentioned in this thread) or if they're SO into it that they forget that it isn't about getting the pee/poop in the potty, it's about listening to their kid.


Thanks for sharing what you would do. I personally don't prize EC enough and don't think it is the most natural method in this situation, so I wouldn't do that. I will try the advice on trying to get a one year old to EC.







Thank you.

I think I would add to your last paragraph, that EC isn't always the best choice for the baby either. Especially if the baby isn't into it. I personally, don't feel like it would have been in my dd2's best interest to force EC. Sure, it would have been in my best interest if she would have ECed, hey, it would be great for me if she did it now! But I'm going to try EC with her for the next couple of day, and if she still has no interest, then I'm just going to drop it wait till she gives me signs that she is ready to use the potty. I just don't think it would be in her best interest to spend a lot of time focusing on getting her to EC. And since my family doesn't need her to EC, I'm not going to push it. I'm sure if I was stranded on an island with no diapers, I could force her to EC, but since I'm not, there is really just no reason.

If I ever have another baby, I'll probably attempt to EC again, but with the knowledge that it isn't always best for the baby, and that dropping it and moving to diapers is sometimes the best for everyone.


----------



## lach

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Plummeting* 
I'm sorry if people are upset that people who do EC responded to the thread.

I don't think that's why anyone is upset at all. I think that if you actually go through and read this thread, people are upset by the critical, judgmental and patronizing tone of some (not all, not even most, but certainly some) of the EC proponents.

FWIW, it's a HUGE pet peeve of mine when people/politicians/large corporations frame an apology in such a way where the people who were offended or hurt are at fault. "I'm sorry if/that we offended you" is an apology; "I'm sorry that you were offended" is not.


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## Daffodil

I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to decide not to keep on with EC because they tried it and it seemed like too much hassle, or the baby didn't seem to like it, or they couldn't get it to work. Or to decide not even to try it because they read about it and thought it sounded like too much hassle, or because they haven't seen it work well for other people.

But I think fewer people would make those decisions if EC were more mainstream and people had better information about it, and the chance to see more people doing it in real life. It might not seem like so much work if you saw lots of other people doing that same work, or if you knew a lot of people who had gotten past the stage where it can be more work than diapering and reached the stage where it's less work. You might not have to give up because it wasn't working for you if you were able to get some good advice about different things to try.

I think when people sound like they're saying someone else's reasons for not doing EC are invalid, they're mostly just saying, "Your reason might not have existed if only you had had better help and information," not "Your reason didn't make sense and you made the wrong choice." Just like if you knew someone who stopped breastfeeding because it was too painful. You might wonder whether a good lactation consultant could have helped her nurse without so much pain. You might suggest that next time she could try seeing a lactation consultant. But you might still think, given that she hadn't had that kind of help, that it was perfectly reasonable of her to stop breastfeeding.


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## bubbamummy

I love cloth diapering too much









no really, Im just not interested in it. I have a toddler already and just cant imagine adding something else to my already full plate.


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## felix23

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to decide not to keep on with EC because they tried it and it seemed like too much hassle, or the baby didn't seem to like it, or they couldn't get it to work. Or to decide not even to try it because they read about it and thought it sounded like too much hassle, or because they haven't seen it work well for other people.

But I think fewer people would make those decisions if EC were more mainstream and people had better information about it, and the chance to see more people doing it in real life. It might not seem like so much work if you saw lots of other people doing that same work, or if you knew a lot of people who had gotten past the stage where it can be more work than diapering and reached the stage where it's less work. You might not have to give up because it wasn't working for you if you were able to get some good advice about different things to try.

I think when people sound like they're saying someone else's reasons for not doing EC are invalid, they're mostly just saying, "Your reason might not have existed if only you had had better help and information," not "Your reason didn't make sense and you made the wrong choice." Just like if you knew someone who stopped breastfeeding because it was too painful. You might wonder whether a good lactation consultant could have helped her nurse without so much pain. You might suggest that next time she could try seeing a lactation consultant. But you might still think, given that she hadn't had that kind of help, that it was perfectly reasonable of her to stop breastfeeding.


And sometimes even with all the help in the world, and being surrounded by people who breastfeed, breastfeeding doesn't work out. Sometimes there really are reasons that breastfeeding doesn't work. I think the acknowledgement that EC doesn't always work (even in the best situations), and that it isn't always in the best interest of the baby is what has upset many of the non-ECers.


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## GoBecGo

I don't EC. From what i have read (including this thread and a few websites and so on about the whole concept) i cannot see how it would be more convenient to me than using nappies. I also homebirth, babywear and breastfeed for convenience. With nappies i had about 1 or 2 accidents a week to clean up/deal with (say one wetting-through and one nappy explosion), if that. I don't know how long it might take for me to get to that stage with EC, but since i can get to that from birth with nappying there is no contest for me.

I can believe babies are born with the awareness that they are about to pee or poo in the immediate future, but i cannot figure out why they would prefer to go in a potty, or even know what a potty is, or the difference between that and going in a nappy. So i can understand that some kids might give signals but i don't really see why responding to that with a potty is better or righter or more preferable, unless you happen to have a baby who hates to be wet (i didn't). Someone above used the analogy of puking and what to do when a kid says they're going to puke - leave them and grab a bowl or hold them and let them puke on a towel/you/the rug - i'd rather be held, and i hold my babies. I hold my babies when they fuss. I don't see how the only appropriate way to respond to a pee/poo signal is to get the nappy off and hold them over a potty - isn't holding/comforting them just as good, in terms of responding to a need, since the need seems to be to communicate what is happening, if they DO communicate it, not to have a potty for it to happen in?

As far as i can see the process seems to have 2 parts:

1. baby being aware of what is about to happen
2. parent TEACHING the baby what to do about that (whatever is preferable to the parent i.e. hold and go in potty, let go and go in nappy)

I can see how 1 might be a basic thing the baby wants to communicate (because i imagine after 9 months of NOT pooping, that function at least must be pretty scary happening multiple times a day until you get used to it, likewise, peeing NOT into (amniotic) fluid feels different and might mean babe needs reassurance), but i can't see how 2 makes any difference at all from the baby's POV so long as it is lovingly done.


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## listipton

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheryl1678* 
My personal theory (and that is all it is) is that EC is a lot like breastfeeding. With accurate information and adequate support, _many_ more parents would do it.









This. I have not tried to EC and when I brought it up to dh, he said 'whatever, but I'm not doing it'. I'm still trying to figure out how to do it and make it work with our lifestyle. Before ds, I didn't even know it existed.


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## Plummeting

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lach* 
I don't think that's why anyone is upset at all. I think that if you actually go through and read this thread, people are upset by the critical, judgmental and patronizing tone of some (not all, not even most, but certainly some) of the EC proponents.

Yeah, I know that some people were rude. However, some have wondered why ECers responded to the thread, since the original question was why people don't EC.

Quote:

FWIW, it's a HUGE pet peeve of mine when people/politicians/large corporations frame an apology in such a way where the people who were offended or hurt are at fault. "I'm sorry if/that we offended you" is an apology; "I'm sorry that you were offended" is not.
I'm not sorry that "we" offended people, because I am not involved in some group effort, so when people were rude or judgmental, I wasn't responsible for that or even associated with it. If anyone was offended by the fact that I posted to the thread, it was an issue that was beyond my control, as I was not judgmental or rude and it was not inappropriate to get involved in the conversation. Therefore, I am simply sorry that people are offended. Sometimes "sorry" is just an expression of sympathy. I feel sympathy for the fact that people are offended, but I don't feel any responsibility for that. If I'd acted inappropriately, then I would be sorry that *I* offended them. I didn't, so if someone is feeling offense, I feel sympathy for the fact that they are. <shrug> So, while I get that you have a pet peeve, it has nothing to do with me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JTA Mom*
Nor has anyone said EC was universally X.

Some have. They've said it's gross because poop and pee gets everywhere, it's "gimmicky," people do it because they believe noble savage myths, it requires "constantly" watching for cues, babies don't have sphincter control until 18 months and therefore it's impossible that they're actually holding it, you have to invest a lot of time in it/you can't do it if you're busy. Those aren't statements about a personal preference about EC. Those are statements that elimination communication IS something (messy, dirty, not real, impossible) or CAUSES something (stress for parents who spend every minute cleaning up poop/pee or watching baby for some sign). Those are statements that EC is universally X.

The thread has mostly been people giving what they admitted were their own perceptions, but there have definitely been posts in which people stated their opinions as facts, rather than just opinions.


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## DevaMajka

Sorry all, but I think this particular thread has run it's course. I'm going to close it, but leave it on the boards.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to PM me.


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