# What do you know about Swedish car seat usage?



## Smalls181

I think I had heard somewhere that Swedish kids tend to go straight from RF (55lbs) to a belt positioning booster. Can anybody verify that for me?


----------



## Twinklefae

Yup, they do. AdventureDad is Swedish, and will likely pop in.


----------



## Smalls181

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
Yup, they do. AdventureDad is Swedish, and will likely pop in.

Oh cool! I hope he does!


----------



## Adventuredad

I'm Swedish-American but can bore you to death with Swedish car seat usage crap, just ask everyone else









The Swedes go straight to belt positioning boosters from rear facing. Our seats can hold kids rear facing to 55 lbs, the strong recommendation is to keep our kids rear facing until 4-5 years of age. I know many don't make it that far for a variety of reasons but it's very unusual to see a 3-year old forward facing. There is a strong will in holding kids rf to at least 4 years of age.

Most kids therefore start using boosters at age 4-5 which does make a big difference in safety. I know that kids in many other countries start using boosters way too early which is not safe.

The debate between safety of boosters and harnessing tends to get heated and is not easy to understand since there are so many factors people don't think about and simply don't understand. It's just not as easy as watching a Youtube movie and thinking it has all the answers.

The Swedish researchers, who have been doing this longer than anyone else, recommend boosters ahead of harnessing so we don't keep any kids forward facing harnessed. The reason is harnessing puts lots of strain on the neck area and also on the rest of body for a variety of reasons. A book could be written about all factors involved.

There is nothing wrong with harnessing, it's also a safe way to transport kids in a vehicle. Researchers here recommend boosters but the difference is likely to be small. I talk quite a bit with people at a crash test institute and some people who have been working with this their whole lives (not only Swedes). They kind of think the debate is a bit silly, we're far better of focusing on rear facing kids longer since that's where the large safety difference really is.

There is no testing of boosters vs. harnessing anywhere in the world, the opinions you read and hear are subjective. What I talk about doesn't come from me, it comes from research community and real life testing/data. Both boosters and harnessing are safe and certified. There is no actaul proof boosters are better and there is also not proof harnessing is better. Testing this would be too complicated, subjective, expensive, and also kind of meaningless. This means trusting the Swedes would require some trust and same goes for trusting the US advice. It's up to each person to make a decision they feel comfortable with.

Swedes have been using boosters, and rf, this way for the past 30 years and the results have been excellent. In 2007, only 2 kids died in age 0-6 and 8 died aged 7-14 in traffic accidents in the country. To be fair, this has a lot to do with other factors as well except for pure booster usage.

I think the Swedish overall approach is effective since it's so simple. Infant seat first 6-9 months, then a rear facing seat until age 4 or so and then a booster. There are not so many parents who are confused and the choices are easier to make. You will for example never hear anyone talk about forward facing a child at age 1 or 2, even though the law permits it, the basic education of how to protect kids is quite good IMHO.

See, I told you I could bore you easily.....


----------



## Alison's Mom

That sounds great. Here, it's so unusual for a 2 or 3yr old be still be RFing, that my DH is giving me a hard time about it. My LOs are both small/short for their age, so no problem for us re the RF height/weight range of our carseats.

So, we kept our DD RFing until just after her 3rd bday and we still have DS RFing at age 2yr 5 months. DH, however, gets all riled up once in a while that DS should be forward facing because all the other kids we know that age are FFing. Also, his coworkers (whom I might add are *not* techs or car seat experts, but just parents of older children) make fun of him that his DS is still RFing whenever they see our car.

The only read inconvenience is that the front passenger seat of our car needs to be set quite far forward, without a lot of leg room for the passenger. However, when that seat is occupied, it's usually me or MIL (and we're both short).

I think I might have to move to Sweden! (for the car seat reason and the fact that they're in a well functioning socialist culture)


----------



## Adventuredad

I think the good usage has a lot to do with education, culture, and traditions and probably also with the Swedes boing kind of boiring and safety oriented. It's a lot easeir for a normal parent to keep a child safe in the car when everyone has been talking seriously about it for 30+ years. It takes time o build good habits and car seat usage is relaively new in may countries.

Sounds like you're doing great with you're rear facing


----------



## Smalls181

I can definitely see how a harness could put too much strain on a persons neck. I have always had that thought in the back of my head, but don't vocalize it for fear of being ostracized in the car seat safety community.









As far as my DD goes, she is 33 months and RF, and has probably a year or so to go before outgrowing the RF limit. Thankfully, she has a short torso. I don't know that I would trust her to sit properly in a booster seat at 4, but perhaps at 5 or 6. We will cross that bridge when we get there, though.


----------



## Alison's Mom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
probably also with the Swedes boing kind of boiring and safety oriented.

That's not what I heard about Swedish people from my friend who lived in Stockholm for a year


----------



## accountclosed2

I am Swedish, and I agree to everything AdventureDad says. I certainly remember my yellow booster seat in mid 1980s Sweden!

But yes, in some ways Swedes are much more safety conscious. I think you can say we try to make the world around our children as safe as possible (while still being the real world, not a nursery world), rather than restricting our children, if this makes sense. And the world for Swedish children is still fairly safe. Most of them bike or walk to school themselves (on bike/walk paths separated from the main road, pedestrian tunnels under roads, 30 km an hour speed limits in villa areas (and yes, children playing land hockey or soccer in the road, cars stopping, waiting for children to move out of the way)). This is something I miss in NZ, a very car-oriented, rather than child-oriented, country.

So safe cars, speed limits, safe driving, good car seats, bike helmets, clear rules and recommendations.


----------



## 3boys3girls

...... b/c I like her in a seat that is tethered securely to the vehicle seat. The information I've read in this thread, so far, has been *invaluable* to me. Definitely sheds a new light on our *choices*....! Thank you smalls (my sis) & adventuredad, and any others who bring more info.







I personally have never considered the fact that harnessing my older/bigger child may put extra strain on her neck in the event of a crash. it does make sense. Our Radians (3) are all secured so very-very tightly in my 03 MONTANA (8p) b/c of the tether straps.

My 7 year old DD is 55 lbs & in a Radian 80. I'm pretty sure that she's got another 1.5 or 2 inches left in torso height b/f she outgrows this seat (by height). very OT but I WAS SHOCKED TO RECENTLY LEARN THAT SHE WAS 55LBS. She's a string bean & I figured she was more like 45lbs! I've been telling myself that I'll just buy the latest model Regent when she outgrows this Radian (you know, as long as she still fits in the Regent with room to spare that would acutally make it worth the cost). Which of course would mean that we'd need to buy a much bigger vehicle (Suburban, Yukon, Exp) especially with our 2 BIG boys (13 & 9) and a new baby due in July 09! I LOVE THAT THE REGENT HAS A 20" TORSO HEIGHT. HOW I WISH THE RADIAN DID!

I am totally FOR rf'ing as long as possible. My youngest is almost 2, 27lbs, and rf. My middle girl is 31lbs, she'll be 4 in a couple of days & has mainly been RF, but I did recently turn her.

Sorry, I've kind of gone off on rabbit trails here.... the short version of what I'd like to say is that I LOVE TETHERING our child restraints. please correct me if I'm wrong but belt positioning boosters can't be tethered,right? sounds like a stupid question. ETA: I LOVE TETHERING b/c OF THE ADDED SECURITY IN THE EVENT THE VEHICLE BELTS FAIL. BUT, OBVIOUSLY, IN A bpb THE SEAT BELTS ARE ALL THAT HOLDS THE CHILD IN THE SEAT, SO THE TETHER DOESN'T MATTER, EXCEPT IT KEEPS THE BOOSTER SNUG, IN PLACE.

Thanks! Blessings to you all in 09!!!!


----------



## Smalls181

It appears that the Monteray can be used with LATCH. But in comparison, this seat is wider than the Regent? Is that even possible?









According to the link above, the Monteray is 22.5 in' and the Regent is 21.5 in'.


----------



## Adventuredad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alison's Mom* 
That's not what I heard about Swedish people from my friend who lived in Stockholm for a year









We're a lot less boring after two bottles of wine or ten beers.....









Harnessing an older child is just fine and I'm not bashing harnessing at all. It's very safe just as boosters are. Problem is most people thing it's a huge safety benefit and it isn't. It's a long and often heated discussion, doesn't make it any easier that many of the views are subjective due to not objective comparisons available. Special needs kids are of course different and for them harnessing might be a better idea.


----------



## Smalls181

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
We're a lot less boring after two bottles of wine or ten beers.....









Harnessing an older child is just fine and I'm not bashing harnessing at all. It's very safe just as boosters are. Problem is most people thing it's a huge safety benefit and it isn't. It's a long and often heated discussion, doesn't make it any easier that many of the views are subjective due to not objective comparisons available. Special needs kids are of course different and for them harnessing might be a better idea.

Well who isn't less boring after alcohol?









It is nice to have this info, because I think it can take a lot of stress off of parents whose 6-7 year olds are outgrowing the Graco Nautilus type of seat, and they are freaking out about whether they can afford a Regent or not. Or when their 6-7 yo is being teased about being a harness.

Adventuredad - I was also wondering if you know how many vehicle accidents happened in 2007 in Sweden? When I bring up the stellar safety record Sweden has to non-believers, I often get "all that proves is that the Swedish are better drivers." While I am sure that has SOMETHING to do with it, it cannot possibly account for all of the lives saved in Sweden over here in the US.


----------



## Smalls181

Oh, one more question for you. What is the tallest shell height for RF seats in Sweden? And do they also follow the rule of "1 inch of hard shell above the head" to fit, height wise, RF?


----------



## isabchi

I have a silly question?.
We started talk with DH about this tread (thank you for all the great info!) and he give me a question about RF whith the kid's legs. He said that when the child grow it's no room for the legs...


----------



## Twinklefae

Kids make room. (If you think about it, most kids sit all curled up anyway, and hate to have their legs dangling!)

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum.aspx

Here are pics!


----------



## emmasmommy

My dh is Swedish and we lived together in Sweden for 3 years (left when dd1 was 18 months). We have also been back for several visits since moving to Canada. One thing I have noticed personally is that there are more 2.5-3 year olds in booster seats there than i see here in Canada (though I've seen it more often that I like here too). I know my cousin-in-law who gave us a car seat had her youngest dd in a booster by 3 or earlier and told us that the seat would fit dd1 until about 2.5 (her dd was only just 3 when she gave us the seat). People currently living in Sweden, may have a different view on that, but I did see a lot of really little (to me anyway) kids in boosters when we were there in the summer. Personally I'd rather have them in a ff harness at that age than a booster, if for whatever reason the parent didn't want them rear-facing anymore. Britax does make one seat in Sweden that can ff. I'm actually quite surprised by it because ALL the literature I've read on Swedish car seats says to leave the kids rf until at least 4 years old - so the information is out there!

As far as overall safety, I think European cars have more safety features that are standard. Also in talking with dh and driving in Sweden, there seems to be a lot more thought put into highway design and making the highways safer to drive on (better barriers in the middle etc.


----------



## Adventuredad

Quote:

Adventuredad - I was also wondering if you know how many vehicle accidents happened in 2007 in Sweden? When I bring up the stellar safety record Sweden has to non-believers, I often get "all that proves is that the Swedish are better drivers." While I am sure that has SOMETHING to do with it, it cannot possibly account for all of the lives saved in Sweden over here in the US.
Keeping kids safe in cars is not only about great car seats, there are many other factors involved which may not be apparent at first. Swedish drivers are IMO better drivers for a variety of reasons. Less drunk driving, little more respect for the law (read boring







), education, culture, traditions and also the simple fact that getting a license is not easy or cheap. Drivers are far better prepared and educated about traffic safety.

Getting a license means a tough written test which does require many hours of studying. Most also take driving lessons. Before getting license, every driver is required to spend a full day at a driving facility driving in all kinds of conditions. It's fast driving, quick braking, maneuvering, and also doing this in many different conditions (wet, icy, dry, etc.). One also get to look at crashed cars, some educational videos, and some practical things. Like sitting in a car which is being flipped over and also crashing at slow speed on a sled. It's very educational and interesting. Cost for a license i usually around $1500-2000. Expensive but many lives are saved this way.

Traffic safety for kids (and adults) is not only about seats. People were taught early 30 years ago about the benefits of rear facing, it's "default thinking" here. Swedes are probably a bit more careful in traffic. There is also lots of focus on traffic safety, especially for kids, and it's discussed all the time in media.

Keeping kids rear facing until age 4-5 also make a difference in fatalities and especially in injuries. It's extremely unusual to have a fatality in a correctly installed rear facing seat. Injuries are also kept much lower, a rf seat is 5 times safer for a 12 month old which makes a difference in accident stats.

The researchers here have been doing car seat research since early 1960's and are top notch. What they have done very well is to get the message out to the population by working closely with government and organisations. This is uncommon. They've also kept advice and seats simple to help parents make better choices. For example, in US researchers know that rear facing is much safer but a large percentage of the population still has no idea about that.

You can find some basic global traffic stats here. It has deaths per 100 000 vehicles etc. You can see that Sweden has the least accidents of all countries. Fatalities per 100 000 vehicles its less than half of US.

Fatalities per age group, Sweden only, can be found here. Trend is interesting, especially among kids aged 0-6. in 1970, 70 kids died in traffic each year. In 2007 it was only 2. I think that shows that the overall strategy is working well (but can still be improved.)

In 2007 there were 18548 accidents which were reported to the police.

There is a huge priority on keeping kids safe in cars and about 95% do sit restrained in cars at all times. That does include misuse as well, like seat belt too early, but just using a belt cuts down a lot on fatalities and injuries.

The are many other factors which help our overall statistics like keeping gas prices very high and encouraging people to walk, bike or take public transportation as much as possible. Especially to work. Thats effective in the long run.

I think the discussion is interesting s long as people don't draw the wrong conclusions. The low amount of fatalities and injured in kids is mainly a results of tremendous focus and making it a very high priority. I think similar results could be achieved in other places if the focus was there.

Quote:

Oh, one more question for you. What is the tallest shell height for RF seats in Sweden? And do they also follow the rule of "1 inch of hard shell above the head" to fit, height wise, RF?
The tallest seats are Britax Multi Tech and Britax Two-Way. Both are combo seats which allow rear facing to 55 lbs. among other things. Seat shell height, from bottom of seat to top, is 62 cm (24.5 inches) I believe.

Our seats may be used far longer than the US "1 inch rule". A seat may be used until tip of ears are at at the top of seat shell. This means top of a child's head is slightly above top of seat shell. This is perfectly safe with these seats and allow longer usage rear facing.

Quote:

People currently living in Sweden, may have a different view on that, but I did see a lot of really little (to me anyway) kids in boosters when we were there in the summer. Personally I'd rather have them in a ff harness at that age than a booster, if for whatever reason the parent didn't want them rear-facing anymore.
I think you're entirely correct. Keeping kids in boosters at age 3 is way too young and not safe. Car seat usage here is great but it can get a lot better. I do see lots of misuse, usually not major stuff but definitely things that make a difference in safety.

I mention all the time that kids are about as safe in boosters as in harnessed seat according to experienced researchers. That's not true if kids are below age 4. In the case you mentioned, I think child would be far safer ff and harnessed than in a booster.

Quote:

As far as overall safety, I think European cars have more safety features that are standard. Also in talking with dh and driving in Sweden, there seems to be a lot more thought put into highway design and making the highways safer to drive on (better barriers in the middle etc.
I see little difference in safety of vehicles but the otehr stuff might be true. There is focus on this kind of safety all the time. Which brings back to the boring trait once again....


----------



## roxyrox

adventuredad - I have a couple of questions for you...I have a 4 year old ds who currently has a britax parkway booster and a britax first class seat. For the last few months we have used the booster. He sits in it great and I have no concerns about him keping his seatbelt on now (I did in the past).
We carshare, which means we have to install the carseat everytime we drive. I never feel like I get a *tight* install on the 5pt harness seat. Do you think a booster is sufficient for a 4yo? I "feel" quite safe with it but I read this board and think I am doing something very unsafe?


----------



## Adventuredad

Like I mentioned before, the views on safety regarding harnessing vs. boosters are subjective. Harnessing is recommended in US while Sweden recommend boosters for better safety. There are no tests between the two and no objective proof that one is better than the other.

I usually say both methods are about as safe, one might be a little safer than the other but difference is likely to be small. Harnessing a child is just fine and safe and so are boosters. The Swedes are anal about car seat safety, it's taken very seriously and I feel confient letting my kids follow advice from experts here. Others might feel differently and I'm fine with that. The safety record is also great but that does include many other factors other than purely what type of seat is used.

I think it's unfortunate that you and many others feel like you're doing something wrong when using a booster. There is no safety difference for a normal child of the right age. When I bring this kind of opinions up to researchers and people in the car seat safety business they smile because they know about the incorrect assumptions.

My son stayed rear facing until 4 years of age and has since then been sitting in a HBB. I feel very good about this and he sits well. How much does your son weigh if I may ask?

Install issues and letting others use seat can be factors with 5 point harnesses. A booster is easier to move and install correctly. It also sounds like your son is behaving well which helps with boosters. I don't know how heavy your son is but if he is of normal weight a booster is as safe as a harnessed seat. Do make sure you follow the law regarding boosters where you live though.


----------



## DahliaRW

I do think if a 4 year old can sit properly in a booster that is fine. No way mine would, so therefore he is safer in a harness.


----------



## isabchi

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
Kids make room. (If you think about it, most kids sit all curled up anyway, and hate to have their legs dangling!)

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum.aspx

Here are pics!

Thanks. DH will love to check the info.


----------



## Adventuredad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isabchi* 
I have a silly question?.
We started talk with DH about this tread (thank you for all the great info!) and he give me a question about RF whith the kid's legs. He said that when the child grow it's no room for the legs...









There are no silly questions. Parents are often worried about this because of safety and comfort of child. Rear facing is as safe or safer in the rear seat in collisions from behind. All talk of danger because of broken legs etc. is not an issue. Children sit with legs bent while rear facing but I've so far not hear anyone complain. Swedes use the front seat extensively for rear facing car seats (airbag disabled) since it's as safe or safer than the rear. This is helpful while rear facing since leg room is a lot better for kids in front. Many parents keep kids rear facing an additional year because of this.

Here is a photo of my kids rear facing in Mexico in a smallish car. My son was 39 months and daughter 8 months. He made it rf until just over 4 years of age which was shorter than desired but he grew too tall. His legs are bent but this was never an issue.


----------



## roxyrox

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Like I mentioned before, the views on safety regarding harnessing vs. boosters are subjective. Harnessing is recommended in US while Sweden recommend boosters for better safety. There are no tests between the two and no objective proof that one is better than the other.

I usually say both methods are about as safe, one might be a little safer than the other but difference is likely to be small. Harnessing a child is just fine and safe and so are boosters. The Swedes are anal about car seat safety, it's taken very seriously and I feel confient letting my kids follow advice from experts here. Others might feel differently and I'm fine with that. The safety record is also great but that does include many other factors other than purely what type of seat is used.

I think it's unfortunate that you and many others feel like you're doing something wrong when using a booster. There is no safety difference for a normal child of the right age. When I bring this kind of opinions up to researchers and people in the car seat safety business they smile because they know about the incorrect assumptions.

My son stayed rear facing until 4 years of age and has since then been sitting in a HBB. I feel very good about this and he sits well. How much does your son weigh if I may ask?

Install issues and letting others use seat can be factors with 5 point harnesses. A booster is easier to move and install correctly. It also sounds like your son is behaving well which helps with boosters. I don't know how heavy your son is but if he is of normal weight a booster is as safe as a harnessed seat. Do make sure you follow the law regarding boosters where you live though.

Thank you for that. He weighs about 35lb. The booster is suitable from 33lb it says and he is quite tall. The 5pt harness goes to 40lb so he could probably use it for another year but I find it such a pita to install everytime. If the booster is just as safe I think I may sell the other one as it is taking up a large amount of room in my hall!

The other thing I wanted to ask in my last post is can you put a HBB in the front seat? Ds gets carsick quite a bit, especially on longer journeys. I also get carsick if I am in the back seat so I wondered if he may feel better in the front. I have seen HBB boosters in the front of other people's cars. Is this safe? I *think* it is legal from what I can ascertain online (I am in UK)


----------



## Adventuredad

Airbags are made for persons at least 140 cm. tall (55 inches). If a person is shorter than that damage may occur in a collision. I would not put my kids in the front passenger seat in a HBB unless an emergency. Kids are safer in the rear seat but there is one important exception.

Children who are sitting in a rear facing car seat are as safe or safer in in the front seat with a disabled airbag. This has been tested and verified long time ago and it's not debated any longer among researchers. I can give you countless quotes from Britax, Volvo, BeSafe and many others which confirms this.

Keeping your child 4+ in a booster is safe but I would strongly recommend you only use the rear seat.


----------



## an_aurora

If your 4 year old can sit properly in the booster 100% of the time, it's safe. Otherwise, no.

As far as the front seat, he really needs to be in the back. The front seat is just not a safe place for children under 13.


----------



## Adventuredad

Quote:

The front seat is just not a safe place for children under 13.
Unless they are sitting in a rear facing seat with airbag disabled.


----------



## an_aurora

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
Unless they are sitting in a rear facing seat with airbag disabled.

Yes, but that doesn't happen here in the US since we have NO passenger vehicles (ie cars with a backseat) that have airbag switches.


----------



## Adventuredad

Glad you agree about the safety about the front seat.







There are plenty of imported and other cars/pickups with an on/off switch for the airbag in US even though the overall percentage is very low.

Is this a good idea for most people? No. Research has shown that many Americans forget to turn off the airbag switch and therefore placing their child in great danger. That's partly why the cars don't have a way to turn off airbag with key/switch.

But that doesn't change the fact that a child who is rear facing in the front seat is as as safe of safer than in the rear seat as long as the airbag is disabled.


----------



## the_lissa

I was just in a severe accident. The kids who were ff harnessed were fine. I had whiplash, painful chest contusions, and back pain. If my almost 5 year old had have been in a booster, she would have sustained similar injuries. There may not be a big advantage in terms of mortality, but I would love to see research on injuries.


----------



## Adventuredad

Sorry to hear about your terrible accident. Problem with all the data is that it's not easy to analyze. There are no tests on harnessing vs. booster since these would be way too subjective and complex.

The issue is far more complex than most realize and a quick look at a Youtube video says nothing and often leads to incorrect assumption.

To make boosters look great I could point of the Swedes unbelievable safety record going back many years. But this would not be fair since there are many factors except seats which make a difference.

The US traffic safety record for kids is terrible and could be used to make harnessing look like a bad choice. But here are also here many factors beyond just harnessed seats which have an impact on safety.

This is why the debate is complicated, subjective, and not as simple and straightforward as most believe. Boosters and harnessing are about as safe in the long run for normal children 4+.


----------

