# When is control too controlling



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Thre has been a very lively thread about food, eating and control. It really got me thinking so I posed another question regarding the whole isse of control. This is what I posted



> I read in another post (paraphrasing here) that not giving your kids certain food is a control issue and if they want to eat something they should be able to have it. Maybe it is controlling but I am sorry just because my son is mesmerized but the Clifford box of crap he sees in the grocery store doesn't mean I am going to given in and buy it. But I also buy very few foods he can't eat (booze, wine, my husbands disgusting power bars) so he is rarely denied any food in his own home. I also don't let him watch videos 24/7, watch any commercial TV or play on the computer whenever he wants. I don't let him hit people, use my sharp chefs knife (even though he really, really wants to!) or run with scissors. At 3 I make those choices for him. I realize all these are controlling him but is that necessarily bad? *Am I doing more long term damage then if I did let him eat junk or watch TV all day?* As he gets older he will have more control. I'll teach him to use the knives, to make his own TV choices and choose when he wants to watch. *I guess I just don't understand how you can raise a child with out any control?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I know that my feelings have changed in the last 3 years and I know they will change more over the next 3. I foresee today that with every passing year I will be letting go of more and therefore controlling less of son's life. But I just don't see how I can not, in good conscience control certain things in his life. A few thing I know I will NOT compromise on TODAY or in the in the immediate future are
> 
> ...


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Can't answer now, but wanted to sign on.


----------



## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
5) He can not use my sharp chef knives (but neither can my husband









ROFL. After my DH cut a chunk out of his thumb using my super sharp sewing scissors, he declared that no one was allowed to touch them except mommy! He is afraid of them now and has decided that sewing is extremely dangerous.

Quote:

So again I ask the question: Are we doing more long term damage when we control what our children eat, watch, read, listen to or play with? And where do we draw the line?
I wonder about this too. I tried TCS for a while but ultimately it did not feel right to me. It was frustrating for all of us and the day I went from trying to find a solution that everyone could agree to to screaming at my kids because they were driving me crazy, I decided that being more authoritarian would be better. My kids are less frustrated with each other and with me, and since I'm not spending my engergy trying to keep them happy with everything that happens, I have more patience and energy.

None the less, the time I spent learning about TCS deeping effected my thinking. I do believe that coercising children all the time is bad for them. My children do great with me have a short list of things that I am very clear about. It works best for us to have a balance. I put a lot of thought into everything that I feel the need to control for my kids. I think the list is going to be different for different families, but feel that keeping it short should be a common goal.

My kids have far more control over their lives than most kids their ages, yet there are things that I am very cut and dry about.


----------



## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

I would like to take a stab at answering this from my point of view. I was raised by a very controlling set of parents who made many decisions for me based upon their own needs. I was put to bed early (CIO'd) so they could have alone time. I was fed what they ate, whether I wanted it or not. I was told what to wear and what records to listen to and what sports to play until I was a teen and rebelled big time. Long story there....

Anyway, dh and I are trying to raise dd differently but of course we are making some decisions for her. She is only 21 mos. We are choosing to keep her safe and healthy and making decisions in her best interests, not ours. She cosleeps and still nurses because that is what she wants and it is good for her and it does not hurt us to keep doing it. She is kept away from knives and poisons and sugary foods and moving vehicles (etc, etc) because that is in her best interest. Sometimes, we go home from the park earlier than she wants because it is freezing outside and getting dark, even though she wants to stay. Do you get my drift? We control some decisions for her to keep her healthy and safe. As she gets older, we will let her participate more and more in the decision making process so that she can learn from first hand experience what it means to be responsible.

If you never make any decisions for your child and let him or her run the show, you run the risk of them controlling you later on. I used to teach fifth grade and I had a student who's mother had never controlled him in any way and always let him do what he wanted. He was a nightmare to teach, refused to work when he felt like it, yelled at other students who did things he did not like, threw tantrums all the time. To make matters worse, his mother washed her hands of all of this because she did not tell him what to do. Poor kid ended up in counseling at divorced dad's expense after he had a blowup with mom and refused to live with her over some little thing. This is a very extreme case but I think it makes my point that as parents we have to make some decisions for our children that are in their best interests.


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I think the hardest thing is finding your own place to stand, even knowing that you are likely to move. It seems like being a strict parent or being a lenient parent is ok just pick something and try to do it consciencely. Have a plan. If you feel like controlling your kids food is working, don't let anyone talk you out of it. I hate the idea that there is a right way to do this. It is such a personal relationship. There are lots of ways to teach our children to eat healthy as adults, to make good choices when we aren't there to control them.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think that parents do have a right to control certain things to protect their kids or their family life.

My thoughts on eating are well known (see other thread) but I should mention that no food is off limits in our house. We have what others would consider junk. But this is served as dessert after a regular meal.

My kids are allowed soda in place of dessert, if that is what they want (though they seldom choose to do this). They also get it on "special occassions" (birthdays, major holidays, big family parties).

I have many other rules that many woulld consider control.

My kids have a bed-time (they can go to sleep when they want, but they have to be in bed.)

They have to do their homework within 1/2 hour of getting home.

There are many others. I just don't have a problem with this.

I


----------



## bubbles (Jul 26, 2002)

I do feel that it is our job as parents to have some control as we need to guide and teach our children based on knowledge that we have gained. Giving up control to let them eat/drink/do whatever doesn't make sense to me in today's world since there is so much available to them that would not have been in the past. We have to use our experience and insight to help them to understand the world and make informed and educated decisions. That starts with having some control before they fully understand everything. That said, drawing the line can be difficult. We make a lot of decisions based on personal preference, cultural norms, religious values, ethical values, etc. When it comes to TCC (which I found fascinating) I remind myself that the research was done in a setting that was isolated from cultural differences, multiple social influences, media, etc. Not that I don't think there is a lot to be gained from the info in the study, but we have to work w/ in the society in which we live and acknowledge the tremedous differences in the influences up on our children. Interesting question and I look forward to hearing what others say.
BTW, I totally agree that my views have changed over the years and will continue to change. I feel that I am much more mature now that I can acknowledge that I will change as time goes on. When I was a middle school teacher (before having children) I believed in a lot more control than I do now. Now I look at it more as informed guidance.

edited to correct TTC to TCC (The Continuum Connection) also to add I posted again below to admit my ignorance and confusion.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Okay I just want to clarify, I think

TTC is trying to concieve

and TCS is taking children seriously

I was reading this thread thinking "What in the world does ttc have to do with this topic??" until I realized what you were talking about...I do this with abbreviations all the time too.

I am fairly sure that open TCS debates aren't kosher. I *think* there is a support thread for TCS in finding your tribe.

But I think the topic in this thread is great and I can't imagine it would be considered a TCS debate unless it evolves into that.

Maybe a mod can clarify.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Cool--thanks HollyBear'sMom!

This is one of those interesting things for me because I always assumed that you had to have lots of limits and controls on kids for them to turn out OK--like people who could function and live in society. Swear to god, when my son was 18 mos. or so I was looking for Toddlerwise at the bookstore. They didn't have it and I ended up buying The Discipline Book by Dr. Sears.

Anyway, I started coming to MDC I found some people saying that they didn't limit all sorts of things and they didn't control things I thought you had to control, and their ideas made sense and resonated somewhere inside me. So, I did more reading and more searching and starting lifting some of my controls. And I can't tell you how freeing and wonderful it has been! I'm looking forward to hearing other people's experiences.

As a starting place, here are some of the ideas about lifting control that have really been meaningful to me:

Jan Hunt

Quote:

Regardless of how carefully we phrase it, when we tell a child that a certain activity is required, we imply that it must be so unpleasant or difficult that he would never want to do it on his own; otherwise, why are we going to the trouble of requiring it? No one has ever required a child to eat ice cream!
Thomas Gordon

Quote:

When one person tries to control another, you can always expect some kind of reaction from the controllee. The use of power involves two people in a special kind of relationship - one wielding power, and the other reacting to it.
Sandra Dodd

Quote:

Without choices, they can't make choices. Without choices they can't make good choices OR bad choices. In too many people's minds, "good" is eating what parents say when parents say (where and how and why parents say). That doesn't promote thought, self awareness, good judgment or any other good thing.

As with other magical sacrifices some people make to become "good parents," some parents prohibit sugar. I've seen very bad things come of that. And as magic, it doesn't work any better than the magical sacrifice of plastic toys, or of TV, or of video games, or of wearing clothes with logos on them. Those are lame attempts at magically assuring that a child will be peaceful or healthy or creative. What they tend more often to do is give children reason to be sneaky, and depending on the parental presentation or justification of the restrictions, can help the child learn early on that the parents aren't as bright as they would like.
Someone (sorry not to be able to give proper credit!!) on the unschooling yahoo group posted this the other day--I liked it a lot!

Quote:

Coercion breeds subversion.

Kids who are repeatedly told what to do and when at the expense of their own internal
logic either become complacent rule followers to appease their imposing superiors or they become adept "beat the system" subverts and rule breakers.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I don't think I control that much, but let's see...

Food used to be anything goes - if she asked for it and it was in the house, she got it, even if it was ice cream for the third time before noon. We started limiting it because her diapers were just horrible to deal with! So we decided dessert only once a day and only after dinner, and also she can only have chips or crackers and juice or soda once a day.

TV - We also don't do commercial TV but she never asks to watch it anyway. I don't know how we'll handle it when she asks. Recently I didn't want her to watch Pocahontas because of all the stereotypes, but she picked it out herself, so I decided to let her watch it once and then I took it back.

Friends - not an issue yet. I don't want her playing with rough rowdy types or those from bad neighborhoods. And I'd really rather she have girls for friends







: but wouldn't try to stop a friendship with a boy.

Toys - When she gets stuff for her birthday/Christmas that I can't stand, such as noisy electronic stuff or stuffed animals that are TV characters, I just tell her it has to stay in her room.

Chores - not required. If she won't pick up her toys I tell her we just won't get out more toys. If she still won't do it, I do it for her. I don't mind.

I think to err on the side of caution, less control is best for us. I don't want her to feel like we are infringing on her. I think her opinions and desires are just as important as mine.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Where I am about control:

I grew up with inappropriate controls on my behavior. At one point when I was a teenager, my mother told me, "I don't love you unconditionally, I will only love you if you do what I want."










I know, I shouldn't laugh at that. It's painful that she was like that. That's what I'm NOT going to do!

Here are my reasons to still think I am going to exercise control over my child:

1. I want to inculcate my values, I view that as part of my responsibility as a parent. Unfortunately I fear, having seen other parents in action, that this involves some degree of compulsion. I would really like my child to embrace my beliefs and values with joy, so I will extend them that way.

That's where I am now, anyway. I might change on that.

2. I believe that children attain self-control and self-discipline gradually, and I want my interactions with my child to be appropriate to his level of development. He doesn't want me to change his diaper right now. If I don't change him, he will get a rash. I know that and he doesn't, and it's okay for him not to like it when I change him, but it's not okay for me not to change him. Eventually he will learn to use the toilet. Eventually much later, nothing that happens with his body will be my business. Wisdom is realizing when that is!

3. I will admit that I privilege my child's needs over my own in the balance of needs in our family. But I think ideally every member of the family should get their needs met. I already see that I have to protect some property from my son's exploration. he needs to explore. I need my dh's record collection that he inherited from his dad to stay intact. Until I figure out a better way, I have to compel my son not to touch the records.

Or compel my dh to move the cabinet. Gently.


----------



## bubbles (Jul 26, 2002)

Okay, so a big duh! from me here. I was reading above and misread TCS as TCC and then I accidentally wrote TTC in my post







So, sorry for making such a blunder and confusing people. I was basing my thoughts on The Continuum Connection. I hadn't read the debates on TCS. Can I ask why debates on that are not kosher here? Maybe I just need to check the finding your tribe forum for an answer. Direct me there if it is not cool to ask that here.


----------



## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

How about this: The problem with controls is when we use "a control" to put a conditions on our love.

I will only love/approves of you if you do XYZ my way.

There are times we set controls but we have to explain ourselves.

1. We eat this food because XYZ.
2. We don't watch this because XYZ.

Some times we do have to make controls by using compromise. It snowed today. My daughter wanted to wear a spring shirt (I don't know how it got in her drawer). I set a control you can wear that shirt if you wear this on top of it.

There is plenty of healthy food choices on the table. It is limiting options. Limiting options is not always bad, some kids do get overwhelmed. But along with it you have to teach nutrition.


----------



## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'm pretty anti-control. OTOH, I'm really pro-working things out, and pro-problem solving.

I find that controlling is sort of the shortcut approach to discipline - it's making the decision for the child. It takes longer, initially, to work through decisions together, to examine your own beliefs critically, and to allow your child to be an autonomous being. In the long run, though, you have a child who understands the reasoning and underlying issues behind these things, and makes well-considered decisions independently, even when you're not there to control her.

I don't advocate the "Yeah, whatever" approach, to be very clear. I advocate the," Hmmm, I'm concerned about X happening if you do Y" approach.

My child is free to eat whatever she wants, within our budget constraints, and she knows them as well as I do. If she ever really wants something, we get it. Usually we can negotiate a solution, like making homemade versions of expensive processed foods or going to the grocery outlet where they're cheap









If the issue is something that doesn't concern me, like what my child wears or how she cuts her hair or what color she dyes her hair or what music she listens to (as long as I don;t have to listen). I'll happily advice and share what I know. but those aren't my decisions to make, IMO.

Other issues, ones that affect me directly, we work out together.

Dar


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I could have written Dar's post. (That happens alot LOL)

We are a TCS family, and big suprise... we are also pretty anti-control. My kids are free to watch commercial TV, any movies they want, play video games when they want, and eat whatever they want that we have available to us. We've learned about what different foods are/do, and how the body works more or less... the rest is up to them. We give share info, advice, concerns, and any wisdom we have that they are wanting on any given subject and that's it. We believe they are entitled to the same freedoms and respect we are as adults, and we have faith in their abilities.

This doesn't mean we don't guide them or caution them, it means we don't force or forbid. What that kind of lifestyle looks like and how it works changes and evolves over time and as the kids get older of course. I had to scoop up my toddling child against her will a time or two to prevent her from running into a busy street, and I did so because she was not yet capable of understanding why being in the street was dangerous. As they grow they can understand the info and the control isn't necessary. To be honest kids are smarter and more capable than they are given credit for IMO.

My kids choose their own hobbies, hairstyles, clothing, music, books... and I cannot think of a single reason why they shouldn't be able to.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

My long term goal is to not be controlling with my kids. I've found some good information with anit-control parenting styles and I try to incorporated non-coercive parenting as much as possible.

I do have a problem with TV and food when it comes to control. Food, less so because I don't consider it control if we just don't have it in the house and when we do, it's usually a special occasion and DC can have what she wants. TV is a whole 'nother problem. I really feel that TV and video games are an addiction, which runs in her father's side of the family. I just don't feel comfortable with free range of the TV and I doubt that I ever will. OTOH, DC needs to figure out how to regulate that for herself at some point ~ I think I'll wait a few more years though.

I wonder if any of you controlled some things for younger children that you don't control now?


----------



## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

My "control" definately shifts as my kids get older. My eight year old is wise enough to know that sugar cereal for breakfast make her feel yukky- my 4 year old cannot.
I have a vegetarian house, I'm vegan. My kids can choose to eat meat when we're out if they want. My choice to become vegan came from my heart- I don't think it's the ONLY healthy way to eat- I want them to make that decision for themselves- not force it on them. So I won't take them to McDonalds, but if they go to a birthday party, or someone elses house- they can have what they choose.
Same with the sugar cereals, the blue "juice", the "fruit chews", and the green applesause....I sure am not buying it, and I tell them exactly why. My kids are very educated about sugar in particular, because all of us have very clear reactions to putting it in our bodies. They do know they are free to have it elsewhere, and I find usually they choose not to- they don't even really like it now. I feel like if I didn't have a little "control" in the beginning, they would be addicts, like so many Americans are. Actually now that I think about it, I feel like that isn't control over my kids, it's protecting them from these companys who prey on children. I have empowered them with knowledge.
As for everything else, TV, we only have a few channels, no cable, so they don't have a whole lot to watch anyway, video games are very new to us (we just got pac man, even I kinda like that! ) clothes- anything goes (as long as it's weather appropriate), music ( no swear words, but any style they like), friends (we have a diverse group) you get the point. I want my kids to be who they are, and know they are loved exactly the way they are.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

I wonder if any of you controlled some things for younger children that you don't control now?
Well my son is only 3 but I still can think of things I controlled that I no longer do.

1) 100% fruit juice. Never had it till maybe 6 months ago. I still don't buy it but he can have juice boxes at school or at friend's houses.

2) Candy. Rule was NEVER EVER EVER. Now if he goes to a b-day party or went trick or treating I let him eat what he wants that day.

3) Going down to the basement. Ok sounds weird but our basement is a disaster and just plain scary! I don't like to go there. The stairs are big blocks of stone, very steep and narrow. He now can come with me when before it was "off limits"

4) Free run of the house. We just took down all of our gates. Yeah! Before he had to be in the same room with me. Now he is free to roam the house. If only he answered when I called!!









The more I think about it the more I realize that the only things I really control are for (my perceived) safety and health reasons. As my son matures I am sure these "controls" will lessen and others will emerge.


----------



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I try to look at a bigger picture - the issue of eating is, to me, absolutely huge. I can't even equate it to video games or crappy toys because to me it is something that impacts your life several times a day forever. I want eating to be pleasant and done for the right reasons - not out of rebellion, not out of boredom, not out of spite. I want it to be done with joy and a feeling of control over what my DD puts in her own body. This is one of the reasons I feel that I must empower DD to make the right choices for herself.

I limit snacking when I have to - DD has difficulty deciding when she has had enough and does sometimes eat until she throws up. This is due to her sensory issues. I hate that I have to limit at all but it is sometimes necessary in her case (although not frequently).

I don't have junk in the house. I don't eat it therefore I don't buy it. To me, this is just a "family value" and not an issue of control. She is free to eat whatever we have in the house (except her daddy's Diet Coke). If I were a junk food eater, I would have it in the house and she would be able to eat it.

When she goes to friend's houses, she eats junk. When she trick or treats on Halloween, she gets candy. When she goes to a birthday party, she gets to eat cake. I would never make her feel that she isn't allowed to have these things because I truly believe that forbidden fruit is the sweetest.

The irony is that she doesn't crave these things very often at all. In fact just last Saturday we left a birthday party before the cake because she was tired (her decision).

I think the less important you make something, the easier it is to just incorporate into your life. I don't make food important. I make it as stress-free as possible.


----------



## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

I have to disagree, I think giving children too much control too early is asked too much.Children aren't born with a set of values in their mind and need to learn healthy eating habits.Saying this, I never force her to eat anything but only because she'd like a candy bar for every snack time doesn't mean I have to give her one in order to not be overly controlling.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Being someone who is in the middle on the control issue (at least with the parents on this thread) I have found some new ways to pass over control to my child. She's 3 and gradually learning to make choices for herself outside of instant gratification.

Something that's worked very well for us is me telling her that I don't want to make that choice for her. I'll often remind her of some factors she might consider or even give her my opinion of what she should do but I leave the final choice up to her. It's surprising how often she makes what I consider to be a reasonable choice.


----------



## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Quote:

He is afraid of them now and has decided that sewing is extremely dangerous.
Linda, that is too funny.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

will be back to read more soon!
great new thread
unfortunately I am sick right now








I will adress the vegetarian issue since we are a veg. family


----------



## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
I limit snacking when I have to - DD has difficulty deciding when she has had enough and does sometimes eat until she throws up. This is due to her sensory issues. I hate that I have to limit at all but it is sometimes necessary in her case (although not frequently).

I also have a DD with Sensory issues and it does make the control issues different! My DD does not process tempertures the same way most of us do. What feels uncomfortably hot or cold to most of us, just feels interesting to her. When she was younger, this was huge. She once let the tap water get really hot and then held her hand under it until her hand was scolded because "it felt good." Her SI seems to be getting a little better as she gets older and she has learned that even if something doesn't feel bad to her, it can still hurt.

Another issue with control for our family has been sibling issues. My kids are closely spaced and as tots, I found that I had to control things between them that if I had only 1 child, or had a large age gap, would not have been an issue.


----------



## Ahimsa (Apr 7, 2004)

:


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I have a dd with SID and I do have to exert a lot more control over her life than I do the other two (and she is the oldest). but I often have to cut her off before she is full. She just doesn't know when she is full. (really name one 7 year old who is healthy and eats 4 whole sandwhiches for lunch) So I usually do "you have to stop eating and take a break for a while. if you are still hungry in an hour you may come have a snack" she rarely comes since her focus has shifted elsewhere. We also have hot and cold issues. adnw e live in a climate with weather extremes where heat stroke or frost bite can overtake you in 5-10 minutes.

I htink coltrolling the environment of a child with SID is somewhat the same as controlling the environment of a child with allergies or diabetes. e there is a condition at work which most people don't understand you just have tostep in more and provide that protection and make the descisions to keep them healthy.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

I've been thinking about the whole control issue more and more lately as my ds is becoming more independent (only 18 mo.s now)..........
I think there is a difference between controlling dc and protecting them.... in the case of my ds, I guess you could call it controlling him when I hold him from toddling into the street or do not allow him to dive into the deep lake, which has a verys teep dropoff, but i see this more as preotecting him. Obviously, he will become more expereinced and I will adjust. And already have done this. Like for example, he used need help and spotting when he would climb up to our big office chairs that spin, but now he has mastered them, so he can climb right up and I do not have to control that anymore. When I think of how we used to be one step behind him all the time too, we have eased up so he can walk and run through the entire house now. He is quite fearless and a daredevil , but he has gotten more in tuned with his body so I have more confidence in his abilities. We never used safety gates or anything.

I do not control things that I think his mind and body know intrinsically. Like, I do not control his "bedtime". Sometimes 10, or later..... He sleeps better when he is tired and chooses to go to sleep. I feel like he knows best.
I do not control how much or when he eats. when he wants to nurse, we nurse. when he needs a snack, I offer him choices. he can go to the fridge or the cupboards and pull out what he'd like. We keep healthy choices available. I guess we control that- we dont buy crap. I think this is just a parents resposibilty to raising a healthy child, but I trust that his body knows what and how much he needs.
I have been a vegetarian for a little over 17 years now, so ds is one, too. In a few years, he will be able to understand things like "an animal has to be killed so that you can eat it" but not now. When he is old enough to understand, he can choose to eat meat. But I think he is healthiest with a well balanced vegetarian diet, and I think parents who give their kids meat are choosing to control thier kids diet as much as choosing to not eat meat. I think every parent does control their kids diets when they are so young. Obviously, when they can't do it for themselves, you have the responsibilty to make their decisions for them.
He likes vegetables and a lot of foods availabel. Loves beans, salads, tofu, rice, pastas, etc. I do not control his diet by withholding the sweet things I eat. I do not buy processed sugary crap, or refined sugar, or sodas, but I like some good chocalate, or choc. ice cream, or sometimes bake a treat. I have never made a big deal out of these. He does not see them as special, so he'll take maybe one bite for a taste and be done. Or sometimes he like s to go up to the frezzer and get us to give him a little ice cream- which i give him about a teaspoon or two in a little bowl, and he barely eats much of it, but seems more intrigued by the melting of it and what it looks like when he plays with it! I think the quotes posted earlier by monkeys mom are right on. Because i do not make sweets any different from any other foods, he is in tuned with his body's desire for just a taste, he doesnt pig out at all. I think it is prejumptious to think that if we give kids control they will choose the least healthy options. I give him more respect than that.


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

It absolutely changes as the child gets older/understands more. When my son was a year old I needed to control his access to sharp things, for instance. He is 13 now and no such control is needed (hasn't been for awhile actually lol) In regard to food I have never seen the need to control that for the kids at any age.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

But limiting exposure to some foods is something that most of you do, no? Our issue is that we're quite 'out there' with people. So, I don't control food now other than not having exposure to things for the daily diet but I know I did not let her sample coke at the cafe with a friend when she was 6 months, did not allow solids until later and etc.

Can you describe these issues in regards to control? I get the feeling this is a language issue.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

The only foods my dd is not allowed to have are caffeinated drinks like Pepsi and coffee. And alcohol, of course, but we don't drink alcohol anyway.

If she started wanting to try coffee it would be a dilemma for me...I guess I'd have to give it up too.







But I don't want to be "above her" in that area; if she can't have it I can't have it either...so I just hope she never asks.










I sometimes think I must be the only parent whose child has never tried to run into the street...but this running into the street issue is often the first thing a parent thinks of when they think it's OK to control a child. "Well, you have to control them when they try and run into the street!" Have I just missed out on something that is bound to happen someday?


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am less controlling than some, and more controlling than others. I think the balance is different for each parent and child, and if it feels right, then it probably is right for your family. If you are engaging in lots of power struggles, then it might be time to reassess the balance.

I also want to chime in about the SI issues, and how that impacts the need for control. If dd had her way, she would wear her shoes buckled so tightly that they leave deep, purple gouges on the tops of her feet







So tightly that the strain actually rips the strap from the shoes! Sometimes we have to protect our children forcefully if their nervous system is not protecting them they way they should.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If she started wanting to try coffee it would be a dilemma for me...I guess I'd have to give it up too.









A splash of decaf in a cup of milk (cow or soy)?
My mother also used to make us Postum, and call that "our coffee". Apparently, it is still available! (not sure how healthy it is, tho....)
Postum


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*

I sometimes think I must be the only parent whose child has never tried to run into the street...but this running into the street issue is often the first thing a parent thinks of when they think it's OK to control a child. "Well, you have to control them when they try and run into the street!" Have I just missed out on something that is bound to happen someday?


I can understand how some dc might not run into the street. And I read TCC and the part about how if you expect them to run into the street , and say things like "dont go out in the street!!" then inevitably they will go into the street.... makes sense, it is a natural instinct to want to do what is expected of us, very strong urge...... SO, tCC did make sense to me in lots of ways and It changed my perspective. so i never said dont go out in the street and if we are near a busy street ds is very aware of the cars and stays on the sidewalk, but we Ihave to hold him back is right in front of our house, our street doesnt ge a lot of traffic, esp. in the middle of the day when we are out mucking about, so he will be doing his normal toddler exploring and naturally wander into the street because he doesnt see the cars, he has been too young (18 mo.s ) to remember this is where dangerous cars drive, so I try to carry him across the street, or pick him up when a car is coming. But no, when he is next to a busy street, he does not run into it.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I have actually let DS have a sip of coffee now and then. I thought he would hate it and not want anymore but he actually seemed to like it.







He doesn't usually ask for it, though.

I am laughing at the "running into the street" thing - it seems to be one of those archetypical scenarios people always bring up as a shorthand to illustrate their point, yk? I mean, I am sure it has happened but I don't think most kids are launching themselves into oncoming traffic on a daily basis, lol.

I am uncomfortable with the word "control". I don't like the thought of "controlling" children. I prefer to think of them being guided, or protected. For instance, we have a regular bedtime at our house. DS goes to bed willingly at this time every night. We did not pick this bedtime arbitrarily, it is based on his natural rhythms and he is usually sleepy at this time. We sometimes adjust it based on other things that are going on. But in our family, we all do better with some structure. The trick is to build the structure to suit the family, not mold the family to the structure, KWIM? So it works for us. But DS is the kind of kid who will just stay up until he passes out on the floor from exhaustion unless you create an opportunity for sleep for him. Other kids might not need this.

When I am making a "rule" or whatever, a "way we do things", I try very hard to examine my motivation for doing it. Is it truly a safety issue? A health issue? A moral issue? Maybe I just don't want to clean up a mess, or I want to hurry up and get something done, or I am just losing my patience and want things my way. Then I try to stop and figure out if there is a compromise, or a solution that will satisy everyone. Sometimes there isn't, and then I just have to prioritize which need or want is more important, and it can't just automatically be me, lol. Anyway, I find that if I try to remain mindful of *why* I do things, I am much less likely to fall into the trap of wanting to "control" things or micromanage them, which is a problem I have. I have had to learn to let a lot of things go, and examine what is really important to me and why. Plus, I think when you try to be fair and your rules make logical sense, kids are much more likely to cooperate with you willingly. Nobody wants to follow a rule that makes no sense to them.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

:LOL
yeah, i dont think kids are launching themselves into traffic, either!
But when we were little, my stepsister got hit by a car, broken arm ,etc. not because she launched herself into traffic, but because of a very reckless driver going too fast ... so i do not trust people driving all the time, KWIM?


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

My dd launched herself toward cars more than once







Usually in a parking lot, when she was melting down. Yes, she knew that cars were dangerous, and respected the danger when she was "together". But when she melted down (often), she would dash. We had to set rules: toddler leash, stroller, or be carried. No walking in the parking lot (transition was hard for her--still is!--and she would very commonly meltdown when leaving anyplace in her twos...)


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

We have a "hold hands in parking lots" rule which fortunately has never been an issue.

About coffee - I agree that children may not like coffee if they try it, and there can't be much harm in that; I just want to stay away from the kind of "aversion therapy" where parents make their kid smoke a pack of cigarettes and the like.







Good thing we don't smoke either...


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

We have a "hold hands in the parking lot" rule too. A few times DS didn't want to hold my hand and he ended up being carried, which he didn't like very much so now he always holds hands. In fact when we get out of the car in a parking lot he automatically reaches for my hand, and if I am taking a few seconds to get my act together before I take his hand he kind of gropes around in the air for it, it's very cute.

I can not imagine why anybody would deliberately force their child to drink a whole cup of coffee. I think that would be worse for the parent than the child - the kid would be bouncing off the walls! I shudder to think what DS would be like on that much caffeine!


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

One more thing - DH drinks soda, so DS asks DH for sips of his drink a lot. I have issues with this because *I* only drink water. If it wasn't for DH and his damn soda habit DS would never even see the stuff. But, he sees Daddy drinking it so of course he wants it. DH is aware of the situation but still drinks the soda. I don't make an issue out of it, but it is hard, lol. Anyway - I don't want to tell DS he can't have any when DH is slugging it down, so he gets about a 5 sip limit then he is shut off. It still seems a little unfair, when DH drinks 3 glasses of it with dinner







but I have to set a limit on the amount of soda he can drink, for obvious reasons. I have told him that he is still growing, and soda isn't good for a growing body, but Daddy is done growing so it isn't as bad for him. I am not entirely happy with this reasoning because I don't want him yearning for the day when he is grown and can guzzle all the soda he wants, but I am hoping that by the time he is old enough to make those decisions he will be better informed about nutrition, yk? I don't want to drill "soda is bad" into him and then have him worry that Daddy is doing something "bad".

Am I making too much of this? :LOL I tend to overanalyze.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

The parking lot/traffic stuff is where I first starting seeing how shifing from rules to principles helped us. We now have a principle of keeping safe in the parking lot--so that can mean Sam and I hold hands, Sam holds onto my clothes or bag, or Sam walks very close to me and I put my hand on his head or shoulder. It keeps it flexible, gives him some power to choose, and I'm not worried about him getting hurt. He is extraordinarily mindful of not running into the street or parking lot--will stop on a dime when he gets to the curb--we have talked about car/traffic safety a lot.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

monkey's mom, just curious - at what age did you start using this method?


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I'd say about a year ago--so he was 2ish. Mostly he wanted to be carried before that--so that worked out, too.

I see you have a monkey boy, too!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

When dd is having trouble with a transition--or overloaded--holding hands makes her completely freak out. But, again, she has SID (and we didn't know it at the time), so she responds differently from most kids I guess. But holding hands in the parking lot was not a good option for us when dd was 2. It made things much worse.

I am glad to hear that the "hold hands" rule works so well for other kids. Maybe we will be able to do that with our next!







Hopefully, if we have another, I will see first hand that most children *won't* launch themselves into traffic! (fingers crossed!)


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"My dd launched herself toward cars more than once"

Mine too! I certainly control dds when near cars..........and water.

And for those whose children have never run out in a street - nor had my dd. Until the first time she ran out into a street, that is.


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
"My dd launched herself toward cars more than once"

Mine too! I certainly control dds when near cars..........and water.

And for those whose children have never run out in a street - nor had my dd. Until the first time she ran out into a street, that is.









I wonder if it is something all children will eventually do? Maybe some do it at age 3, some at age 9, and some even older?









My brother tried to jump out his second-story window when he was three, but I never did anything like that.


----------



## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

Personally, I think it's important for kids to 'run their own show' in terms of their bodies - that means they determine what to wear, eat, when to sleep, etc. etc. with as little adjusting from parents as possible. For instance, with clothes I'll suggest she'll be too hot or too cold, but if she refuses I just bring along what I think she'll need in case she changes her mind. Of course, there are always exceptions - it gets pretty cold here, and going out is just flat out dangerous without a certain amout of clothes on. And, if she wants to be nekkid outside in the summer, she might have to put on sunscreen, or if she's in the house, she might not be able to hang out in front of the tv because she forgets to use the potty.
In general, though, I like to offer alternatives and other choices as much as I can & hopefully we can find something we both agree with. I will 'lay down the law' if she is too tired/overwhelmed to think, when she is adamant about making a choice she's not able to handle the consequences of, or if there are other factors beyond her scope at play (ie, we must make it to an important appointment or something).
Like many have said, I think everyone needs to find their groove with their kid. Some kids need a little more definition to their boundaries than others. Some, like dd, need to make as much choice as is humanly possible for a 2 yo to make without getting killed. But whoever you are, like FMB said, most imortant of all is making sure you aren't just making arbitrary rulings based on baggage or old assumptions. Kneejerk 'no's are IMO the most damaging of all kinds of coercion or control - kids will learn quickly enough that you are nothing more than a tyrant, and instead of learning and absorbing principles everything you say will be suspect.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Today I asked my dh this question, right after we saw our neighbors, who are eleven, outside in the 25 degree F weather without coats or sweaters or hats on. I said, "At what age would you let ds decide whether or not to wear a coat?"

My dh said, "That isn't a matter of personal preference! As long as I am responsible for his health (gesturing to 23 month old ds) he has to wear a coat and hat when it's cold!"

Then he compared not enforcing coats and hats to allowing the child to drink Drano. My dh engages in some hyperbole sometimes! Also, as you might guess, he runs cold and has a strong feeling about cold being bad for people. :LOL

I suspect that he will be phoning ds and asking him if he is wearing a hat until ds is into his 30s. Just a prediction.


----------



## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Ummm, to answer the OP.....no.

There are a lot of bad choices kids will make if their parents do not show leadership and teach them what to do. TCC even advocates this, at least as I understand it. I admit I haven't read the whole book but I have read the articles linked here on MDC and it was pretty clear that parents need to show leadership. To me that means setting an example and giving instruction and rules.

My son would happily grab my chef's knife, jump off a dangerous place, or go to bed without washing his hands after touching the dog's ass if we let him. Obviously, these aren't options.

Actually, most of the time he is pretty good about washing his hands. He likes it. Except for tonight, he said, "no no no" in his high-pitched "I will not do it voice." I just calmly said, "Max, it is time to wash our hands. Step up on the stool". And he did.

I didn't feel like a tyrant or bad parent. I felt like a mom who handled the situation calmly. And he of course happily splashed in the sink and washed his hands. He's only two!

Have to say, to me this is a no-brainer. There is a difference between being a total control freak, bossing your kids for no reason, and setting some reasonable limits and guidelines that make life run a lot more smoothly for everyone. As well as teaching health, hygiene, and some basic societal mores.

As a teacher I have had a few students whose parents did not attempt any control. They were nice people, but guess what? Their kids were developing some pretty negative traits, like selfishness, inability to cooperate, expecting everyone else to wait, getting their way, being disrepectful to adults and other kids, etc. etc. The kids called the shots, and to me it seemed like they were well on their way to becoming miserable adults.

I also think there is a way to go about asserting some control, whether it is for safety reasons, health, etc. We don't yell, we don't berate, we explain our reasoning whenever possible. And we give choices when we can. Tonight for example--my son didn't want the dinner I'd cooked. So he had yogurt and cheerios. I don't force him to eat something he doesn't like, but I did allow him a healthy choice.

To me it is all about common sense mixed with compassion.


----------



## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mariah101*
There is a difference between being a total control freak, bossing your kids for no reason, and setting some reasonable limits and guidelines that make life run a lot more smoothly for everyone.











well put!


----------



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I agree. I think limits and boundaries are more respectful and children really need that. Children of parents who choose not to set any limits tend to be more anxious and crave the security that having a parent in charge means. I remember as a child testing a boundary and actually feeling glad when the rule was reinforced. I felt secure.

Now controlling is another issue. It's primarily for convenience, not for the benefit of the child's growth, development and social skills. I think that's the difference.

This is what I do when nearing a street or in the parking lot: I ask ds calmly whether he'd like me to hold his hand or he wants to be carried. He responds by his actions.. he holds my hand (he's 16 mos). If he doesn't want to hold my hand I take that he wants to be carried. We're always holding hands now, after only carrying twice. His face is beaming because he feels capable and I think because I teach him to look right and left before crossing the street. I also tell him in simple words that the street can be dangerous when there's cars. I ask him whether he sees one coming. He's starting to stop before the street and when I say "look left" he'll turn his head.. in one direction or the other









I love the fact that there are no hassles. I see so many moms struggling with the street issue, hollering at them, etc. I've heard that some moms spank their toddlers when they run on the street!







Children this young simply don't know the dangers so it's our job to guide and teach them.. not control them.

Cheers,


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I beleive as parents it is our job to keep them safe. I also believe it is our job to gently guide them until they can display they don't need that part of us any more. But as far as I can tell, to varying degrees, this lasts a life time.

I am not sure how we can expect children to not be children. I want to children to be children. PLAY have fun, explore. Leave the tough stuff to me at this age! They are too youg to be aduts IMO. What's the rush?


----------



## Jacob'smomma (Feb 26, 2004)

I believe that if you love your child unconditionally and give them the opportunity to have experiences they will not only learn from their own experiences but feel good about themselves as a result. I believe if you exercise control over then they are not getting the opportunity to learn from their own experiences. If they feel good about themselves than they are more likely to make better choices. I also believe that the parent needs to model the behaviour they want their child to have a tendency to follow. For instance, If I don't want my 2 year old to drink pop than I don't drink it myself or have it around to be drank. If I don't want my child to watch tv which is not age appropriate, I simply don't watch it myself and do other things in it's place. If I want to watch a program, I do it when he goes to bed. I don't think that is control. I want my child to be treated the way I want to be treated. I know that it is completely unrealistic for him to never have candy. I can certainly limit his exposure to it yet to expect him to never have it is not very realistic at all. Once in a blue moon I enjoy chocolate so why can't he? I ultimately want him to eventually go out into the world and make the right choices for himself because he is confident with his choices. I can't control what he does as a teenager but I can certainly give him opportunities to feel good about himself as a child which he can build on as an adolescent. If his behaviour is not life or morally threatening than I let him lead the way to his own experience. I believe if we start giving our children the ability to make their own choices and have control at a young age, it is a stepping stone for the future when they are on their own.


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jacob'smomma*
I believe if we start giving our children the ability to make their own choices and have control at a young age, it is a stepping stone for the future when they are on their own.

I totally agree








It's been very important to our family that the kids have as much control as is possible over every aspect of their lives.


----------



## jensoko (Jan 29, 2002)

Our family is constantly trying to find an ever-changing balance point. I don't look at control in and of itself as a bad thing. Kids do respond to limits--I know that when DS has a nuclear meltdown, he finds comfort in the fact that I hug him tightly in spite of his flailing limbs because it does help him eventually reach a place where he can stop them from flailing. What we try to do is offer directed choices--give him two or more options that *we all* can live with, base the limits we impose on him on logic and rational reasoning, and help him to learn that other people have as much right to respect as he does.

The principles we've found that resonate most deeply with us in terms of where those limits fall center around the belief that no one person is the center of the family or the center of the universe. We make accommodations for DS who is 3 and not yet fully understanding of what it means to live with other people, but we are trying to teach him that everyone in the family has certain rights and that everyone else must respect those rights. I've got no problem with making him pick up a toy before picking out another toy--he's come to understand (completely by accident) that leaving his toys out on the floor can get them broken (it also makes mommy do a really loud and silly dance that unfortunately at the time scared the crap out of him :\ ). Mommy and Daddy have the right to walk through the main rooms of the house without tripping over toys that he's not playing with. He has the right to refuse to put them away, but if he uses that right, then the consequences are that I put up the toy for a week.

This has served a double duty in that we are getting to see which toys he really likes versus which toys he only likes while they're in front of him--my parents bought him way too many toys for the holiday, even though we told them not to. DS wanted to open and play with each toy, so we let him, but now the initial excitement has worn off, we're slowly picking which ones we want to give away, and which ones we want to put up until summertime for rotational purposes.

As he grows, I'm using mostly gut instinct and suggestions from what I see other parents do around me to give him more responsibilities. Thing is--he loves these things. He wants to not only be my helper when I'm cleaning, but he wants me to be the helper and let him do the big stuff! If he shows an easily distractible interest in something, I'll usually give him something else to do. When he's persistent, the challenge becomes streamlining what he wants to do into something he can--is physically able to--do. He cannot wash my chef's knives, but he can wash the pots (I've already scrubbed).

With food, like the majority of other posters here, we tend to limit what is in the house, so his choices are naturally limited. He's allowed to choose sprite in his lemonade when we are out for lunch, or have some of Daddy's coke or pepsi (I drink unsweetened tea when we're out and he's decided it's yucko). But we do have some grown up things in the house. Before I was pregnant, we occasionally had wine with dinner, and we explained to him that wine was a grown-up drink and that when he was a grown-up, he could have some (my own family didn't balk at giving kids a small glass of watered down dinner wine at about 7 or 8, or letting toddlers have a sip, and DH and I don't see it as that big of a deal, figuring that the bigger deal you make of it, the more it becomes something to want to do. But addictive personalities exist in DH's family w/r/t alcoholism, so DH and I have decided to err on the side of caution for the time being). However, we are bringing home the lesson that there are some things that mommies and daddies can eat or drink that little kids can't.

At dinners, from the start, since he expressed interest in what we were eating, we've given him the same thing. Mommy is not a short-order cook, though, and if he doesn't want what we're eating, he may have a sandwich, but he usually does eat with us. We don't make him clean his plate, but we give him more of something if he asks for it, as he's shown that he knows when he's full. We encourage him to "try one bite" of everything, but after that one bite, he doesn't have to finish any one thing. If he balks at the one bite, then we tend not to push if the balking seems genuine (sometimes he will refuse because it's become a game and he wants to see daddy make asparagus spears wiggle). He's proven over time, though, that he's capable of getting a balanced diet, if not at a single meal, then over a day or a few days' time. The only thing he can't seem to say no to is sugar. Fruit snacks, cookies, candy, etc. are always his choice if they are among the choices. We have worked out a deal where--when they are in the house--these choices come out for dessert or a mid-afternoon snack, and only in small amounts.

Our most important lesson to remember is to be flexible. The temperaments of parents and children must be taken into account, and no one theory works for everyone--but if you are flexible and put the love you have for your children and your family before the strict adherence to any theory, you should be able to muddle your way through, no matter what theory or mix of them you end up finding that works for you.


----------



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i hav eenjoyed reading this over the day b/c it has given me the chance for reflection
i would say that over all i do not expose my dd to things that she will want and can not have.
this is not 100% and as she gets older and she knows how to reason about turn taking, choosing your limits, safety issues etc then she will also slowly be exposed to situtations where she has control over these issues with natural consiquences....

for instance, i keep no sugar in my house and never eat it in front of her face
we do not own a tv
our computer is only used for "daddy's work" in front of her,
we do not keep anytoys that we would not want her to have (plastic batteries etc)
now she is only 1 1/2 years old
she is too little to know what she is missing
why would i give her something that i think is "bad" befoer she can even really ask for it?
so
as she gets older and she can understand more of what we explain about our reasoning i will allow her to make her own chioces and hope for the best...
unless i feel like she is really at risk for danger (physical or moral according to our beloved belief system) i will explain to her, listen to her and trust our abilty to communicate.

but i have to admit, remembering MY teenage years, makes me want to keep her in a padded room away from the rest of the world forever......

i know tha tmy parents' created my scary rebellion by ignoring my needs, being dishonest with me, and not respecting me overall

i try to do the opposite
prevent

and yes, i do "make her" hold my hand or be carried across streets and parking lots
she very rarely protests and we talk about why every single time

we live in a wild/drunken college town where there are armies of teenagers drunk/careless driving in their SUV's while talking on cell phones and we walk downtown alot
#1 it is my job to keep her alive
#2 it is my job to keep her healthy
#3 it is my job to allow her the space to create her own joy
that is the order


----------



## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

Control is something that is done out of fear--fear that your kid will turn out "bad" somehow and it'll be your fault. Control assumes that children will self-destruct/are not capable of making reasonable choices for themselves. Control comes from fear, and fear is the opposte of TRUST.

To the original poster, honestly, I chuckled when I read your off-limits list--WHY would you want to be SO VERY controlling of your dc?? They're still young, and SO much can change. Why think in terms of always and never?? Are you worried that your other ap friends would scoff if your son came to playgroup w/a power ranger or whatever??







I hear you, I understand how that feels. But in the long run it will be your son who is upset that you didn't honor/validate his feelings about liking power rangers, and that's what'll really matter.

When my son was born I was SURE he'd never wield a toy sword or play with any violent action figure. But he's 5.5 and loves both. Things change, and I finally had to decide that honoring his wishes were more important to me than protecting him from the bogeymen that apparently only exist in MY head. He is the most compassionate sweet soul you'd ever meet, but he sure enjoys his transformers, his cap guns, and his wooden sword and shield. I TRUST him to differentiate between real vs. pretend violence, and so far he's done a splendid job









Let's see, gatorade?? LOL there are waaay worse things to eat/drink than gatorade. Like dairy products, for example!!







But it's all relative.
Seriously, I think it's much more likely that a child will assume that mom and dad won't let them eat/drink X b/c they're just MEAN, or don't care, then that kid will decide that mom and dad are looking out for their best interests. A happy childhood is really in the eye of the beholder. As for coffee/caffeine, well...this is a problem are of my OWN lol... I buy myself soda, and I know it's bad for me, but I wouldn't dream of telling my kids they couldn't have coke but I could.

My kids have been veg since birth (b/c we are), yet I've never had to "forbid" them from eating meat--they avoid it on their own, as if it were non-edible--even my two-yr old. I am trying so hard to be vegan, yet I don't hesitate to buy my son cheese pizza. I value autonomy over control, so he gets pizza









Oh, and the infamous candy argument--"if I let them, they'd gorge themselves." Well, maybe once or twice, but not every time. It's healthy to let someone (even a small someone!) find their own limits, instead of listening to external boundaries about meal contents/portions/etc. I used to restrict candy big-time for my son--he seemed to always want more!







: So one Easter (when he wasn't quite 4 yet), I decided to just let him have at it--see what would happen. My poor boy ate two WHOLE bags of dove chocolates in 2-3 hours, and he ended up throwing up! He was sick the whole day and felt really sad that he missed all the fun. (I felt bad too--didn't mean for that to happen at all!) BUT, he hasn't eaten too much candy since then--he learned firsthand what eating too much candy does, and now he doens't need "restrictions" or "control"--he's perfectly capable of controlling himself now!









Anyway, I am running out of online time, but you see where I'm going with this... If you want to have a positive relationship w/your children, a good thing to do is to start trying to replace control and fear with trust and love--it's a lifelong process, but SO worth it









Good luck!!


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Ok- maybe this is completely off topic but... I have a story to tell.

I have a 14 year old client who I saw today. She is living in a foster home due to abuse and neglect by her family. She is pretty mad. She got kicked out of school and I was asking her what set her off. She said she hates it when they (school staff) tell you that they care. She knows that they are just trying to trick her into doing what they want her to do. She says she can't wait to be 18 so she doesn't have to be around grown ups and all their lies. I told her I thought she was making some sense. She doesn't trust grown ups and she has very good reasons. She can't believe anyone cares for her when her own family chooses drugs over her. She hates rules. She doesn't have any reason to believe that the rules are put in place for her own good.

So mommas... everything you all said is true. Whatever way you set the rules in your home will work out fine because if rules are made with love, nothing else matters. And sadly, if the rules are made selfishly and abusively, nothing else seems to matter, either.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
I know that my feelings have changed in the last 3 years and I know they will change more over the next 3. I foresee today that with every passing year I will be letting go of more and therefore controlling less of son's life. But I just don't see how I can not, in good conscience control certain things in his life. A few thing I know I will NOT compromise on TODAY or in the in the immediate future are

Just thought I would highlight this part of the OP.

Following along with this thread has me thinking that some of what is being discussed is semantics. I've actually thought this quite a bit when reading about TCS and GD (both individually and comparatively).

And you can choose to call your guidance anything you like but it I'm reading much more similarities than differences in the way we control certain things. Some of us just say we don't call it that. We call it a lifestyle choice or a principal. I feel like it's control and so I call it that.

Does anyone feel what I'm saying? What is the significant difference for those of you who do guide things like toys, food, safety, tv but don't use the word control.

I'm just finding this interesting because I'm one of the least controlling parents I know and practice quite a bit of TCS and was raised with very limited control. I feel lumped into this 'control' group (and occasionally even a little talked down to) when I feel that we practice the same measures for helping guide our kids. I just don't have a big problem with the word.

For some it's fear, some it's love. This is subjective, no? So we don't like the word ~ why?

I'm sure there is some significance for most of you so I'd like to have a dialogue about this. Thanks.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

yes, identity crisis mama- very interesting....
I dont have any answers yet, but will think about it
I do find a lot of the arguments very simalar-
some say they do it for love, others call it out of fear.......
I think it is good to follow the rules that help keep your dc safe and healthy and loosen the control as they are able to become more capable to take care of themselves
to show them respect
to listen to them

and a lot of what this thread has discussed is semantics, i agree
For me, I am just trying to find my way through the darkness- a lot of it is to hear myself and think about it
and read what everyone else is going through helps


----------



## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I totally agree







It's been very important to our family that the kids have as much control as is possible over every aspect of their lives.

I agree, too, provided, as Jacobsmomma said, danger is not an issue to himself or others, or doing things that would lead to that.

My DS, for example, loves babies. At every playgroup he is all over the babies. His choice would be to hug them, squish them, pig-pile on them. DS is 3 feet tall and weighs 33 lbs., but at the age of 22 mos. doesn't quite realize his own strength. So I have to shadow him, reminding him about "gentle" "giving space" etc. In effect, I am controlling his actions. Maybe I would prefer to call it guidance. Whatever the word, I am preventing him from hurting others and hopefully teaching him something. He can't be trusted to make a good choice here.

Ditto for the road issue--DH has tried to run into the road many times. I have had to physically restrain him more than once. He just doesn't "get" that cars are dangerous yet. He thinks it is a funny game to make Mama run after him. As his language increases I hope that soon I can help him to understand the reasons why he cannot go into the street without holding an adult's hand.

As far as food goes, I agree with the PPs, if I don't want DS to eat it, I don't bring it in the house. If it's around and they see you eating it, of course they want it too! Having a child has improved my diet. Except for my organic chocolate stash which only comes out when he is asleep! I really don't want him eating it yet, plenty of time for that later. And I really don't feel like he has to eat every single thing that we do. There are things that adults eat that are not appropriate for kids, like DH's beer, for example. I don't drink, but if I buy wine for company I'm not giving it to my son just because the adults are having it, KWIM?.

Other choices he is not allowed to make: pulling on the cat's tail, jumping off the back of the couch, jumping from mid-stairs, etc. These are things that cannot be removed from the house and thus far all the positive modeling in the world is not totally working YET....so I've got to be there to remind him of the consequences and sometimes again, physically stop him from doing these things. I'm certainly not going to let him fall down the stairs so that he can learn about gravity the hard way.

Let's face it, there is a fine line between letting them make choices to learn and child negligence! If I let him make his own choices every single time he wouldn't be making it to his 18th birthday, and I would be broken-hearted. Protection is vital.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Krystal323

Did you really read my thread or is it just the things that I choose to 'control' that bothered you?? The whole point of my thread was that things change over time and I am open to that but it is still my job to protect him.

You may feel that Gatorade is better than giving my son a homemade yogurt smoothie but I don't. I feel that the chemical made to produce the flavors and colors in that stuff are things my son does not need at this age. I do think he needs fresh fruit and calcium so I choose to give him the smoothie. When he is older will I refuse Gatorade? I don't know. Most likely it will be something we agree on later on in life. But I will have also instilled him why I think Gatorade is bad for a growing body.

If you read my initial thoughts on candy I would have also hoped you saw that it was originally never ever ever. I didn't understand (and still don't) why a 1 year old needs lollipops or sweet tarts etc. However I changed my mind, as he got older. Do I buy it? No. But he can have it if he goes trick or treating or at B-day parties etc. Since it is never in the house he is never "denied". It's not like I sit around eating snickers but tell him no.

Yes my son at 5 might loves swords etc and I am willing to take a wait and see attitude. At 3 I don't think the violent play associated with power rangers is something I want my son exposed to so we don't buy it or watch it. Did I run screaming from the room, shielding my son eyes when ½ the boys in his school were dressed up as power rangers? Of course not.

As you said here things do change:

Quote:

When my son was born I was SURE he'd never wield a toy sword or play with any violent action figure. But he's 5.5 and loves both. Things change, and I finally had to decide that honoring his wishes were more important to me than protecting him from the bogeymen that apparently only exist in MY head.
And as I said

Quote:

I know that my feelings have changed in the last 3 years and I know they will change more over the next 3. I foresee today that with every passing year I will be letting go of more and therefore controlling less of son's life.
I may or may not change my attitudes about them. But as I said before there are A few thing I know I will NOT compromise on TODAY or in the in the immediate future. Never did I say would not reconsider.

One of the reason we don't watch commercial TV is also for violence issues (as well as marketing, a whole other issue). I think at 3 the even the local new is just way to violent for a 3 year old. IMO, he can't nor do I want him to be able understand and absorb those images. My decision to expose him to violent play or violence in general will happen when he is older. Will it be 4? 5? 6? I just don't know at this stage of the game.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I haven't read the whole thread (just the first 40 posts) but here's my two cents anyway.

I don't think that it's "controlling" my children to have rules and to direct their behavior in certain ways. It keeps the peace in a group setting (which a family is) and helps to model our values (which I believe is a parent's responsibility).

My children are toddlers and they don't have the life experience I do. I think I would be neglient in depriving them of the benefit of my experience if I just let them follow their bliss. For example: today my daughter took off her shoes and socks in the car and wanted to walk into the house (about 100 yards) in two inches of snow. Sorry, not happening. I told her she could put her shoes on or be carried. She didn't want to do either so I said I would make the decision then. I started to pick her up and she started yelling and chose to put her shoes on. Did I control her? I'm sure some would say I did. I suppose I could have let her walk in the snow until she realized it hurt her feet and then helped her put her shoes on, but a) with two toddlers, I can't indulge every whim and b) walking in the snow would hurt her feet and I'm not willing to let her get hurt.

Someone made the comment about if their child can't have the coffee then they can't either. I have seen similar sentiments here a lot and I don't think I could disagree with that more. Children are NOT adults. They are equally deserving of respect but not, in my opinion, equally deserving of autonomy. Adults get to choose what they do; that's part of being an adult. Children don't always get to choose; that's part of being a child. I'm fine with that idea and don't feel the need to change it. Children don't have the life experience to make the informed decisions that adults do. I am well aware that many adults make bad choices, but as far as I'm concerned, that's their privilege. I think children need and deserve to be guided to positive choices so that they have the opportunity to grow up learning not to make bad choices.

So to sum it up, I don't think that making rules and forbidding certain things is controlling. I think it's guiding, I think it's assisting, I think it's parenting.

Namaste!


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

dharmamama wrote:
I'm sure some would say I did. I suppose I could have let her walk in the snow until she realized it hurt her feet and then helped her put her shoes on, but a) with two toddlers, I can't indulge every whim and b) walking in the snow would hurt her feet and I'm not willing to let her get hurt.

Yes you did control her (but you already know that). What difference does having two kids in this instance make I wonder? Of course I agree we cannot bend to every single whim. No one on earth can. But why are you anticipating "every whim" when she was just wanting this thing right now? Would it have been me I would have just told her calmly that "Well you can walk in it if you want to, but the snow is very cold and it might hurt your feet." If she choose to walk to the house in the snow and it hurt her feet anyway so be it. I gave her some prior warning about the snow that she might not have realized (benefit of my wisdom) and still honored her desire to be barefoot. What's the big deal here?









Children are NOT adults. They are equally deserving of respect but not, in my opinion, equally deserving of autonomy. Adults get to choose what they do; that's part of being an adult. Children don't always get to choose; that's part of being a child.

Not in my family. It doesn't always work that way. We have found very few instances where there was not some way for them to have a say about something. Clearly as they've gotten older they understand that not every thing will go their way. Then again we follow TCS lines, and that could be the difference here.

Children don't have the life experience to make the informed decisions that adults do. I am well aware that many adults make bad choices, but as far as I'm concerned, that's their privilege. I think children need and deserve to be guided to positive choices so that they have the opportunity to grow up learning not to make bad choices.

So it's a privilege to make decisions and learn from them, and only adults get that privilege? That doesn't seem quite right to me.The way we get life experience is to make choices, sometimes bad ones, and then learn from the result. Children absolutely do deserve to be guided toward positive choices, but to me you aren't talking about guidance... You are talking about force. They are two entirely different animals. I wonder which one breeds more animosity.


----------



## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

My apologies for not being more ON topic to the OP








Yeah, I do think a yogurt smoothie is probably worse than gatorade :LOL but that'a just a simple difference of opinion--splitting hairs, right?









The younger one's kids are, the more "absoultes" one seems to have regarding what they'll be "allowed" to eat/wear/do/etc.

My general feelings are that too many moms (in their very well-meaning attempts of creating the "perfect" environment for their child) end up being *too rigid* for *too long*. +++Flexibility is the keyword IMO+++

And that's the point I was trying to make, and apparently didn't do too well in my last post--sorry!


----------



## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Children don't have the life experience to make the informed decisions that adults do. I am well aware that many adults make bad choices, but as far as I'm concerned, that's their privilege. I think children need and deserve to be guided to positive choices so that they have the opportunity to grow up learning not to make bad choices.
But children are not going to be satisfied with this answer. They may not hear "You can't have coffee because I'm old enough and experienced enough to know its effects, and you're not, and I care about you" - it may just sound like "Because I get to do what I want and you have to do what I say!" And that's not how I want it to be.


----------



## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

what UnschoolnMa said


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

UnschoolnMa, I don't appreciate your condescending tone. In fact, I dislike how this forum often turns into picking people apart for what they've said rather than discussing discipline.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
So it's a privilege to make decisions and learn from them, and only adults get that privilege?

Last week, on the way to the car to storytime, my daughter wanted to take off her gloves and put her hands in the snow. I told her that it would make her hands cold and that she'd be uncomfortable on the way to storytime. She did it anyway, and she cried all the way to storytime because her hands hurt. Today when she wanted to walk in the snow, I reminded her of that and said it would make her feet hurt the way it did when she put her hands in the snow and they hurt. Her response? "No it won't." My daughter is two. I don't think it's appropriate (or nice, for that matter) to allow her to make bad decisions when she's not old enough to understand (or learn from, apparently) those bad choices, especially when they cause her physical pain.


----------



## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

dharmamama wrote:
UnschoolnMa, I don't appreciate your condescending tone. In fact, I dislike how this forum often turns into picking people apart for what they've said rather than discussing discipline.

Well, I am sorry you feel I was being condescending but I don't see it that way







This thread is discussing discipline issues, and I was responding to your post about that very issue. I wasn't picking *you* apart for what you'd said, but I am definately discussing/debating what you are talking about regarding discipline. That is exactly what this forum is for unless I am mistaken. People disagree...naturally. How else was I supposed to respond to your post without replying to the issues I had with what you wrote?







No personal attack meant at all.... that's just not my style.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Oh, oh, pick me appart~

I did have some questions for the non-control group that I posted earlier in the thread. Part of why I'm involved in this thread is because lean ideologically towards not controlling my child.

I'm really trying to figure out why I then feel so different from those of you who don't practice any or much less control than I do.

Part of me thinks this must be a lifestyle issue. We are extremely flexible people with a quite 'out there' lifestyle. By that I mean we do lots of different activities with lots of different people. We live in town and interact with our community a lot! We also travel quite a bit, eat out, DC is starting pre-K, we ride our bike and we also rely on friends for a lot of help and help them in return. This is a large part of our family values.

I say this because often times, there is a necessity for control from these things. Yes, safety is part of this as is respect for our community or following someone else's rules, and often it's just about getting somewhere, or doing some of the 'leg work' for a fun activity. These are the choices that we make, I like to think we make this lifestyle choice as a family, DC thrives in this setting and gets a choice in the things we do. But, she's 3 and sometimes she can choose to participate in something but can't fully commit to everything she would need to do in order to make it work.

The example of the snow is a good one for us. The snow is normally in the mountains for us and we get a ride with another family. So, I would not allow DC to walk without shoes when it would mean learning a lesson at the expense of our friends having to leave. But, I would let DC walk in the snow at our home, where she could easily come in. Some of you might call this solution a 'common preference' others might call it a compromise. I'd call it controlling whether or not she keeps her shoes on when we're in the mountains. This is the semantics issue that I was talking about.

Another value of ours is that we don't put ourselves selfishly in front of others. An example would be when we have tv-free friends visiting we don't use the tv. It dosn't have anything to do with controlling the tv for Aya at that point...the other value of supporting our friends with wonderful commitment comes first.

This gets into the whole balance thing. Vomiting from candy is a tough one for me. I would probably let that happen once but if I had a child who did that repeatedly or we were far from home, I might not, YK? This is a pattern for me here at MDC and in my parenting in life in general. That there is always a balance and there are usually many more things to consider than what's apparent at first thought. Part of it is about just how stressful the consequence of the lesson is and this is a balance we will be finding for many, many years to come. In this way, these years are a time for *me* to learn as a parent as well because I think the really difficult control issues will come later in my parenting.

Also, I've noticed that some of you are reacting to controlling parents. I guess I'm reacting as well. My parents were absolutely not controlling to the extent that I felt a touch alone in my risks as a child. My parents really did let me choose to, say go to school without underwear and I was teased. I still remember that. I know we all have these type things but we learn to improve as parents, right? So, I'd let DC go to school, maybe but I'd put a pair of undies in her bag. I'll let her walk in the snow but when we're close to home so she doesn't have to go an hour with freezing feet.

I guess, I'm expressing what I feel the difference is here. I feel that with giving DC control she still needs to feel supported by me. That's a balance that I'm sure most of us are trying to find.

I have also been wanting to ask about breastfeeding to those of you who don't control food.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

I dont control food, and am "still" breastfeeding, I do not schedule nursing or anything. When ds wants to nurse, I nurse. a lot of times, he seems to just need an emotional pickmeup of a quick nursing when he has a fall or some other toddler frustration. He is jsut 18 mo.s so he is learning a lot quickly.....
So, I do not control nursing. I feel it is the best nutrition forhim and it gives him emotional nurishment, too. Sometimes if he is nursing a lot in the morning, I'll ask him if he is jsut hungry or thirsty and wants to get up to eat some breakfast, and get some water. Sometimes I bring him out to the kitchen if hes been nursing for over an hour straight in the morning because I know there isnt milk left and figure he is just hungry and thirsty. I feel that nursing on cue has really given us a strong trust, I really value it. I plan to naturally do child led weaning...........

I dont really control food at all- I think I have gone into detail about that - maybe that was just in the old-What do you do when your child doesnt want dinner thread...? so I wont repeat everything-

but heres another example tonight- Its late and ds goes to the fridge for a snack- every night for a little while it has been hummus and crackers, rice cakes, veggie chips-- tonite he grabs those same things, except he also grabs the cocunut cake that dh brought home from a work party. SO, I do not have any reaction to this. I do not say- No its too late for cake, or No you shouldnt have the sugar, etc. I just dont make a big deal. SO, we sit and snack with the hummus for a while and every once a while he pokes at the coconut cake and tastes maybe less than a pea size piece and thats it. No big deal. we didnt have to make it a power struggle ... Thats how the sweets always go, he tastes a tiny bit. He doesnt pig out like some would think- if you let a child make a choice will do. He also eats a lot of vareid foods, spices, etc. He is not scared by new foods, like some pp's suggest will happen if we let him choose when and what he eats.
He eats very healthy foods by choice - wehn he wants, what he wants- I respect his choices. He knows better than me when he is hungry. I think letting him decide creates postive associations with food and eating for his life.
Now, I have a feeling it is a combination ofd things- maybe he just doesnt have a sweet tooth,may be it is b/c he sees us eating and enjoying healthy tasty foods together w/o any pressure or judgements, or maybe b/c I have never praised or criticized his food choices... he doesnt see "good" and "bad" foods, etc...This is my first ds, so I am not certain
I don't know
From reading these threads I get the feeling that everyone thinks their way, if we can make it so balck and white, is creating the healthiest most adventurous type eater.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, what an interesting thread. I agree and disagree with so many of you on so many different points.







I truly believe children need to learn to make their own choices and it's our job to help guide them. I respect mothers who feel and act differently. But, what torques me







are those same mothers who get bent out of shape b/c my child isn't conforming to their standard of clothing or play or safety, etc etc. Children learn by doing. Boy,I wish I remembered the stats on how much we learn by listening, vs sharing vs participating. If we control a fearful child now, what's going to happen when you're not around and they're alone? Or, with the "wrong crowd?"
Ah, but a million different situations and circumstances.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

ohh, i just realized I need to clarify-
I DO control food to an extent- we are vegetarain and ds is allergic to corn products.
I will let him choose if he wants to eat meat when he is old enough to understand what killing an animal means, as well as the other ethical , environmental, etc issues...
I find a balance,too


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

In regards to BFing I was thinking more of restricting 'supplementing' with young children or beginning solids with some restrictions/control. I completely realize this is an extreme example but I did wonder.

Regarding control for ethical reasons...I find this interesting because some ethical issues are so common and obvious and some are less so (I guess...not to me but to others, maybe).
Would controlling cross marketed toys or toys manufactured in an unethical way, restricting foods produced by Nestle, religious objections, controlling wastefulness, and etc recieve the same understanding as vegetarianism?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musingmama*
I will let him choose if he wants to eat meat when he is old enough to understand what killing an animal means, as well as the other ethical , environmental, etc issues

How do those of you who object to restricting Garoraid or Powerrangers feel about this statement:

"I will let him have ****** when he is old enough to understand the ethical, environmental issues and etc. associated with that choice."

I'm not trying to pick on you, musingmama. But you see where I'm going here.

Thanks for the dialogue, mamas. It's really helped me focus on this issue again.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Sorry, I just wanted to reiterate about the, admittedly silly, question about BFing. It's important to me that you all know that I was totally thinking of restricting supplements and early solids and etc. I was *not at all thinking of scheduling, restricting BFing*.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:

How do those of you who object to restricting Garoraid or Powerrangers feel about this statement:

"I will let him have ****** when he is old enough to understand the ethical, environmental issues and etc. associated with that choice."
Well, since I am the only one who specifically mentioned gatorade and powerrangers you must be directing that at me?? So I will bite...

This is what I said earlier:

Quote:

When he is older will I refuse Gatorade? I don't know. Most likely it will be something we agree on later on in life. But I will have also instilled him why I think Gatorade is bad for a growing body.
This what I said about power rangers and violence/violent play:

Quote:

Yes my son at 5 might loves swords etc and *I am willing to take a wait and see attitude.* At 3 I don't think the violent play associated with power rangers is something I want my son exposed to so we don't buy it or watch it. Did I run screaming from the room, shielding my son eyes when ½ the boys in his school were dressed up as power rangers? Of course not.

Quote:

I may or may not change my attitudes about them. But as I said before there are A few thing I know I will NOT compromise on TODAY or in the in the immediate future. Never did I say would not reconsider.

Quote:

One of the reason we don't watch commercial TV is also for violence issues (as well as marketing, a whole other issue). I think at 3 the even the local new is just way to violent for a 3 year old. IMO, he can't nor do I want him to be able understand and absorb those images. *My decision to expose him to violent play or violence in general will happen when he is older. Will it be 4? 5? 6? I just don't know at this stage of the game*.
I think that answers the question but just in case it didn't









As my son matures I am positive I will let him make the choices and decisions that today I make for him. If he wants to drink Gatorade when he is older that will be his choice but hopefully he will understand that all those chemicals are not really good for him. That there is a place for all foods in a healthy diet/all things in moderation.

Same with violence and violent play. Will I ever be truly comfortable with it, most likely not, but when I know that he "is old enough to understand the ethical, environmental issues and etc. associated with that choice" he will be free to make those decisions.

I guess what I struggle with the most is will we (my son and I) ever be on the same page on what that age/maturity level will be! I cannot say with any certainty that yes at 5 1/2 he can watch the news and at 4 he can have Gatorade and 7 he can do XYZ.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Regarding control for ethical reasons...I find this interesting because some ethical issues are so common and obvious and some are less so (I guess...not to me but to others, maybe).
Would controlling cross marketed toys or toys manufactured in an unethical way, restricting foods produced by Nestle, religious objections, controlling wastefulness, and etc recieve the same understanding as vegetarianism?

How do those of you who *object* to restricting Garoraid or Powerrangers feel about this statement:

My question was actually more to people who don't support restricting these thigns but who may or may not understand restricting meat for a veg.


----------



## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

OOps!!







: I apologize, I guess I missed a key word!!

Sorry again and back to your regularly scheduled post......


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I, too, get uncomfortable when things like make choices are considered an adult privelege. Mainly, because I don't think it helps kids want to be kids, you know?

Someone once pointed out to me that if kids are not allowed to make choices, how will they learn to make choices. And that seems important. I wonder if too many kids and adults make poor and/or destructive choices because (a) they are reacting/rebelling against the control of their early lives or (b) because they've just never had that responsibility before.

Re. the bfing question--I view that partly as a safety issue and partly as a non-issue. I don't think giving infants food is a particularly good idea, given what we know about their digestive systems or potential for allergic reactions. But, I also think it's a bit of a non-issue since babies aren't likely to be requesting things other than bmilk.

I think the snow example of holding up the friends is a good example of where people might be missing each other in this discussion. Being considerate of your friends' time and hospitality is not the same as an arbitrary rule or situation where a parent is just saying 'no' because it is inconvenient or whatever. Children can understand that difference and they should. I know my child doesn't resent 'no' when there is a logical explanation behind it.

I also want to point out that not controlling your child doesn't mean offering them every single thing in the whole world. If your family buys at the health food store, then Gatorade probably isn't on anyone's radar screen. If it comes up (like at a birthday party or some such) I don't think it's something to make a big deal out of either way. If the kid asks what it is, you could tell him what's in it and why you don't normally care for it, but I don't think forbidding it will do anything but make them want it more.

Kid needs me...gotta run.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Someone once pointed out to me that if kids are not allowed to make choices, how will they learn to make choices.

My kids get to make many, many choices; many more than lots of kids their ages that I know. However, I don't let my toddlers make choices that will result in negative consequences that they are not old enough to forsee or really understand when I explain them. I'm sure that I will feel that way all the time my kids are growing up. I will provide them with the opportunity to make as many choices as they can ... but I won't just throw them in the pool to sink or swim if I don't feel that they can make an informed choice. Little kids can learn to make good choices within appropriate parameters. As they get older, those parameters will expand.

Namaste!


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
but I won't just throw them in the pool to sink or swim if I don't feel that they can make an informed choice.

I'm pretty sure you are speaking metaphorically here, but just in case anyone thinks that this is the sort of choices I'm talking about it most definitely is not.









But, I also don't think touching snow and getting cold hands is all that dangerous, either--that's just learning to me.


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I want to share a story even though it isn't something I am particularly proud of but I am really struggling with sticking to my noncontrolling stance right now.

My oldest, who is now 20 was raised pretty free. I didn't really have a philosphy or the support of a group or the internet or anything but I was raised to make my own choices and did pretty good.

When he was 15- he was really out of control. He had serious problems at school, was diagnosed ADD and bipolar and was smoking pot. I had offered him every solution, help I could think of. He was running wild and it was killing me. I finally told him that I couldn't support the decisions he was making and I asked him to either get help or leave. He left. It was the most horrible two months of my life. He called regularly but slept on couches and continued to do whatever he wanted. I kept expecting to get the call that he was dead somewhere or in jail.

Here is what happened. Nate was dealing drugs at raves. He was using a lot of chemicals. He was making a lot of money. He was 15. One day, he figured out- by himself that the path he was on was really dangerous and he stopped. He quit dealing, he quit using (ok- he still smokes pot) and he came home with his tail between his legs, asking for help and support.

Now in all honesty, he is still struggling but he is living his life for himself and he accepts responsibility for his choices and he is a sweet, loving human being I am proud to know. (Wish he could keep a job, but that will come.) So when I hear control, I think about letting him go out without a coat to learn for himself and I don't know... My family blames my parenting for some of his struggles and gives me little credit for what a great person they all think he is. And I have to make those choices again very soon. I have to decide if I have enough faith in my beliefs and enough faith in my children to go through puberty two more times.

Honestly, this conversation has been really helpful for me. I am noncontrolling but not as much as some others here. The reality is that it is all a matter of time, once they leave you... to the bigger world, you have very little control over thier choices and then you get to see how well they pick. I think some kids just have to learn the hard way, whether it be shoes or drugs and some kids watch others and just know. I didn't have a lot of rules but I knew if I ate too much junk, I would feel lousy; if I stayed out too late, I would be tired the next day; if I did drugs it would likely mess up my life. Of course I forgot, if I got pregnant young... that one I did learn the hard way. I appreciate all the conversation but I really doubt there is a right way- there is just you and yours and what feels best. Dumb answer, but its all I really have.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I really doubt there is a right way- there is just you and yours and what feels best. Dumb answer, but its all I really have.


















And congrats on sticking by your son thru that journey. That must have been difficult. I think you deserve a lot of credit for the great person he has grown to become! Oh, please, let us not be judged by our children's darkest hours!!!! If we must be judged, let it be by their brightest moments


----------



## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*

And you can choose to call your guidance anything you like but it I'm reading much more similarities than differences in the way we control certain things. Some of us just say we don't call it that. We call it a lifestyle choice or a principal. I feel like it's control and so I call it that.

Does anyone feel what I'm saying? What is the significant difference for those of you who do guide things like toys, food, safety, tv but don't use the word control.

I'm just finding this interesting because I'm one of the least controlling parents I know and practice quite a bit of TCS and was raised with very limited control. I feel lumped into this 'control' group (and occasionally even a little talked down to) when I feel that we practice the same measures for helping guide our kids. I just don't have a big problem with the word.



(I haven't read beyond this response)

I'm in agreement that what others call principles, only have rules regarding safety, etc are all forms of control. Honestly, it really gets my goat when I hear this. Yes, you do have rules/principles, etc and that's ok!
I think it feels better to people to call it something else, maybe because the word "control" is equated to the idea of something being enforced with a negative spirit.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Posting as I go...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
I know my child doesn't resent 'no' when there is a logical explanation behind it.

How does this address the issue of control though. Just because a child doesn't resent the control doesn't mean it's not control, kwim?

I had been thinking of this along. I think you can control your child ~ to a fault even and not have a 'fight' with the child.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Thank you, mama for bringing something into this conversation that was lacking.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I think some kids just have to learn the hard way, whether it be shoes or drugs and some kids watch others and just know.

Our children are all different...HOW could we forget that when discussing this. The reality that I feel really bad for not remembering is that some of our children may crave guidance, will accept our word for it and will even feel comforted by control. Other kids will have to learn for themselves, reject our experiences and feel trapped when we try to control them.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Thank you, mama for bringing something into this conversation that was lacking.

Our children are all different...HOW could we forget that when discussing this. The reality that I feel really bad for not remembering is that some of our children may crave guidance, will accept our word for it and will even feel comforted by control. Other kids will have to learn for themselves, reject our experiences and feel trapped when we try to control them.

I AGREE!!
it really is a learning experience, and I think our kids will be fine as long as we leave enough space to learn with them and change as we need to. Not to be rigid, but try to give them what they need-- ( I guess this is kinda obvious!!! but wrote it to myself so i could read it, maybe!!







thanks for the great discussions mamas!)


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Posting as I go...

How does this address the issue of control though. Just because a child doesn't resent the control doesn't mean it's not control, kwim?

I had been thinking of this along. I think you can control your child ~ to a fault even and not have a 'fight' with the child.

Ahh, I see...I guess because it's not about the resentment or the fight, it's about the logical explanation. I firmly believe that kids are logical, bright creatures and given the opportunity will make appropriate choices.

gotta run...


----------



## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musingmama*
it really is a learning experience, and I think our kids will be fine as long as we leave enough space to learn with them and change as we need to. Not to be rigid, but try to give them what they need-- ( I guess this is kinda obvious!!! but wrote it to myself so i could read it, maybe!!







thanks for the great discussions mamas!)

Not only are our kids all different, but we are so different. If someone could prove to me that my kids really did need a really controlling mom, I still don't think I could do it because it just isn't me. I would feel really dishonest parenting in a way that wasn't who I am. How would that be best for anyone?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom*
Ahh, I see...I guess because it's not about the resentment or the fight, it's about the logical explanation. .


Alright, I don't really get this.

Could we discuss conflict and control a little here? We have relatively little conflict in our family live. I try really, really, really...REALLY hard to to think about everything I ask of my child. I take 'control' very seriously. I would never force her to do some random thing out of some control trip.

But, I do control her by my definitions. Maybe I just have a really broad definition of control. For me, not letting her take her own shoes off of her own body on the mountain is control...whether or not she is really upset by it and whether or not my reasons are logical, yk?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
, I still don't think I could do it because it just isn't me.

MMM, not to kiss your tail too much here but I also agree with this.

I'm not sure how relevant this issue is to this thread but I think that accepting and loving ourselves as mothers/parents is a wonderful topic. For the most part, I am who I am...I can't really parent much differently than I do. Good topic...maybe I'll start a thread.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*

I'm not sure how relevant this issue is to this thread but I think that accepting and loving ourselves as mothers/parents is a wonderful topic. For the most part, I am who I am...I can't really parent much differently than I do. Good topic...maybe I'll start a thread.

I agree, I read books and these threads and observe actual life experiences -and I take and choose what is useful and feels right to me. I would never accept some way that did not feel right in my heart, even it was unorthodox. I follow my intuition mostly. I look at what other people do and see how their kids react and if what they are trying to do in the end actually works with the means they use. I try not to be judgemental because I know people judge me all the time, and in some peoples views I am not doing the right or healthiest thing (like the whole issue of cosleeping, for instance -- we cosleep and are happy with that arrangement- but my inlaws really look down on me for this and they are a little taken aback b/c I am still bfing ds......... but those are a whole nother story!!







)
I am who I am but I am a work in progress, KWIM?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

"I Yam who I Yam"

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=239605


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Our children are all different...

That is very true, and that is why I don't believe that there is ONE discipline method, style, or philosophy that works for all kids and all families at all times.

A friend of mine has two boys that were adopted at older ages. They are 9 and 7 now and were adopted at 2 and 4, respectively. Things were not going well for that family for a long time, and it was to the point that they were considering putting the boys in respite. Then my friend had an inspiration. The boys are football fanatics, so my friend started wearing a whistle around her neck. Whenever one (or both) of them acts up, she blows the whistle and makes a call. Sometimes it's "unsportsmanlike conduct" (when they are being mean to one another). Sometimes it's "delay of game" (when one of them is arguing and stalling). Sometimes it's "false start" (when one of them is being impatient or badgering her). The kids are assessed "penalties" for their behavior (5 yards=5 minutes on the couch, 10 yards=10 minutes in their room, ejection from the game=not being able to do a certain activity).

I know that some people here would find this horrifying, but my point is that their family life has greatly improved. The boys dig this discipline style, they can relate to it, and they respond to it much, MUCH better than they ever responded to anything else (and this family has been involved with therapists for years, so it's not like they didn't have a wide range of tactics available to them). Things are certainly not perfect, but they are good. It works for them.

That's why I get so annoyed when I see people dismiss others' ideas and strategies as disrespectful or mean or whatever. The only person who REALLY knows how to parent a child best is that child's own parents, who live the situation day in and day out.

Namaste!


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
That's why I get so annoyed when I see people dismiss others' ideas and strategies as disrespectful or mean or whatever. The only person who REALLY knows how to parent a child best is that child's own parents, who live the situation day in and day out.

Namaste!


I agree.

Well, as long as it does not involve physical punishment, I agree


----------



## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

RE: the vomiting b/c of candy thing, yes, that was my dear son, and no I'm not proud of it. To clarify: I didn't realize that would happen to him, and it hasn't happened again either! I felt so bad for him, I made him peppermint tea and lazed on the couch w/him, we talked about lots of things, and although he didn't outright say "I don't ever want that much candy again", I KNOW that that's what he came away from that experience, feeling like. I tried to make it undoubtedly clear to him that I wasn't "saying I-told-ya-so" or anything, I genuinely felt sad about the whole episode and wanted to comfort him.

RE: the "couldn't parent much differently anyway" thing, oh NO, I am quite sure I'm capable of being a completely anal control FREAK--b/c that's how I was parented more or less, and that's how I started out. I also know what I've read about corporal punishment and attachement theory, and I also don't think our particular brand of homeschooling would flourish in a controlling environment. I think most people who want to parent above-and-beyond have to work at it a little, otherwise they just revert back to doing what comes easiest, which often means parenting the way they themselves were parented. no??

Yep, I agree that sometimes things have to be a certain way so as not to tread on others--of course it's not healthy to let a child "exercise her rights" when doing so is infringing on the rights of others--that's simply not fair--not fair to others now, and not fair to her in the long run either.

And crying about cold hands isn't equal to throwing them in the deep end of the pool when they want to try swimming!







There is a line, but exactly where that line is drawn is difficult to discern sometiems









Also, this thread has me thinking of another Q that comes up sometimes in unschooling/mindful parenting discussions:

"Does freedom (autonomy) include the freedom to self-destruct?"

It's a very complex, multi-faceted Q--what's your take on it, mamas??


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Krystal323*

"Does freedom (autonomy) include the freedom to self-destruct?"

It's a very complex, multi-faceted Q--what's your take on it, mamas??

I'm not sure I fully understand the question, maybe you could elaborate.

Would I give my child the freedom to self-destruct. Well, I'm not sure it's something that I could ultimately control so I guess, yes. However, my life experience tells that the vast majority of self-destructive people don't want to destroy themselves so...

I have a friend, for instance who was self destructive. He actively, consciously became a drug addict and never seemed to want off that path. I know he didn't want help from me and he didn't seem to help from anyone I knew. He is dead and it does seem to be what he wanted ~ on the surface. But, I simply can't shake the idea that he *did* want to be saved. Looking at his life from the perspective of a parent I worry that he wanted *someone specific* to help him ~ his family, especially his brother and parents.

So, I imagine that I would be the parent dragging my daughter from some party if I felt she was slipping down the road of serious drug addiction or admitting her if she had an eating disorder. For now, I'm reserving the right to be a controlling beast if I feel her life is in danger...even if it seems like the choice she wants to make. But, I guess I still fall into the controlling group so maybe my opinion isn't really that relevant to you.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

This is, btw, something that I learned from my parents. Maybe they weren't TCS because I do think that part of why they didn't try to control too much was because they wanted major impact on the things they found to be important. They "picked their battles" as it were. I think this is where I am as well. Part of this, however, is *very* controlling.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Krystal323*
And crying about cold hands isn't equal to throwing them in the deep end of the pool when they want to try swimming!









That was a figure of speech.









Namaste!


----------



## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
That was a figure of speech.









Namaste!


I hoped so!









Oh, to elaborate on the freedom-to-self-destruct Q:
Some parents come and say "well I could never allow my kids so much freedom/autonomy, b/c they'd just run wild and hurt themselves" or something to that effect. It's like they assume that kids will purposely and/or thoughtlessly do things like eat only sugar for weeks on end, or play video games for 17 hours straight, or stay up until dawn and sleep ALL day, forever, if it weren't for the parents' imposed restrictions/controls....









I don't think those things, but I know plenty of parents do. There's a whole page at www.sandradodd.com chock-full of parent's quotes about what their kids would do "if they let them"....

That's what I'm getting at--what exactly should we define as "self-destructive behavior"...and then, where do we draw "the line" (or DO we draw a line??)


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

I dont know if there is a "right" formula for how to deal with people's selfdestructive tendencies.....
From my expereince-
One of my older sisters has always been very selfdestructive. She tried to kill herself several times while I was a child. She used all kinds of drugs selfdestructively. Self- mutilated. Got into some unhealthy relationships. My parents tried relentlessly to try and help her. She was in and out of mental hospitals often until she was in her early thirties. She was put on several different medications. Several different labels given to her "problem". The one that helped her and seemed most appropiate was manic depression, (bipolar), and after a few types and change of doses of medication it did seem to help- except when she would decide that she was "better" and didnt need her meds, then after a few days or weeks, she would hit a really low point and attempt teh same kind of selfdestructive behavoir. she often talked of voices in her head telling her to do these things....
My Mom esp. has always tried her best to talk with her, and try anything that might help, to encourage her with whatever new plan she had thought up to try and "turn her life around" - once it was joining the Marines (went well for a few months, then she tried to kill herself again)- several times it was going to college- to try and help others like her or for art- etc. there were a lot of good ideas but they never panned out in the end. , which only fueled her depression.
She really had a lot of heavy issues and self loathing to work through. She has always had lowselfesteem. No one could help her with this, except herself. It took a very very very long time.
But now, she has been drug free (except for her medication and pot) for about ten or more years, married to a woman for ten years, just bought a house a few years ago, working at dollar store and restarant, taking care of her partners children. She is happy, well, as happy as possible- there are still some problems as in everyones lives. She still has her demons. My dad unfortunately is homophobic, and though my sister and dp live less than two hours away from my dad and stepmom, they never visit. My sister tries, my dad finds some way to avoid her. He is a right wing christian. He thinks she is going to hell, its very sad. My sister had to just accept his fear and homophobia, and it has been very hard on her.
I grew up watching my mom try everything to help her. She listened and talked, physically went and tried to "save" her from some destructive situation or another, talked with her doctors, tried everything she could think of.... In the end, it was only when my sister finally had had enough, that she moved on and lived her life in healthier balance. So, there wasnt much my mom could control to help the situation. She was just patient and waited, and of course worried. Now, they have a great relationship. So, maybe my sister needed all that from her. I don't know. She didnt seem to want to be saved, though.
My Mom didnt of course want to let her selfdestruct, but she really had no power to stop it.
My ds is only 19 months. I wont know what I'd do if he got into a selfdestructive path. I am hoping that by giving him respect, love and trust, he will be centered enough to not self destruct. But of course , I know that even if I was the most perfect parent







it could still happen. So, I will take it day by day. I am planning on talking with him more honestly than my parents had done. I am ten years younger than my sister, but when my parent were still married, there was alot of stuff unsaid. My Dad never wanted to admit that there was drug use in a catholic school....
I will try and be more open and accepting of my ds with whatever he is going through.

Theres no right or wrong, it seems. Of course, we do not want dc to selfdestruct, but how much can we control?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Krystal323*
That's what I'm getting at--what exactly should we define as "self-destructive behavior"...and then, where do we draw "the line" (or DO we draw a line??)









Oh, well I'll save the term self destructive for situations that are life threatening.

I would, however, consider and extremely bad diet or television addiction to be a major concern because I believe it could negatively impact someone's life in a major way.

But, I agree that assuming your child will watch 17 hours of TV/day or eat candy until they vomit everyday for weeks is kinda silly. It helped me to read the TCS philosophy about this type thinking. I still understand wanting to control these things though.

Musingmama, your mom and sister sound like they found balance in a difficult situation. I wonder how comforting your mother's help was to your sister even when she was rejecting it, yk?

I remember the one and only time my father tried to control me. I had been conned by an army recruiter and was thinking of joining the arm so I woudnl't be a financial burden on my parents during college. He told me he disapproved greatly and that was quite controlling for him. To this day, I am both thankful for this and it is a moment where I really remember feeling protected by my dad. He always supported me but I really liked this 'pappa bear' attitude he had.


----------



## musingmama (Oct 31, 2004)

Yeah, my sister did get some comfort, I believe, but at times, she was purposely hurtful, which was hard on my Mom. But today, they have a very close relationship and my sister often remarks on how she doesnt know how my mom put up with so much from her, and I think she learned a lot about strength and love in a very dramatic way from going through all that w/ my mom.
IdentityCrisismama, maybe theres a lesson in how you liked the feeling your dad gave you on that one time of control- maybe we as parents need to give our dc a lot of room to grow and make their own mistakes, but when it seems like something big we feel like we need to interfere with, maybe they will be more receptive since they know we dont try and control just because we can. Let the control or strong advice just be for the big stuff, not all the countless little things. Too often, we are led to belive that if we can expose them to this or sheild them from that, be around just the right environment, do these activities, etc. then we can create a healthy, "special" child w/o too much baggage.... but maybe that is just the flipside of the coin.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musingmama*
maybe we as parents need to give our dc a lot of room to grow and make their own mistakes, but when it seems like something big we feel like we need to interfere with, maybe they will be more receptive since they know we dont try and control just because we can.

Yea, this is probably where I am. I still can't shake the feeling like this totally controlling ~ don't control too much now so I have ultimate control for when I feel I need it, yk? Not that this is my only motivation...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *musingmama*
.... but maybe that is just the flipside of the coin.

Yea, I don't know what comes first, to me. I realize that giving her lots of control will help her in life. My hope is that she will never need me to control something major. I don't even have to control much now and she's only 3 (she's really safe and cautious, respectful, aware).

OTOH, I'm well aware that I would probably control some of the 'biggies' and I take comfort in the idea that I may be able to do that better because I haven't been too controlling. This is also already showing up for us. We limit 'no's and etc and she's really rather accommodating when we must control something.

So, I really don't know which side of the coin I'm on.

I'll let you know in about 30 years :LOL


----------



## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

:


----------



## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

....It's hard to find a balance....

Ultimately, I think the rational conclusion most people come to is that, no matter how bad things get, they *can't* control their dc even if they think it's right and want to...!

People often say, "my kids can think what they want when they're 18, but for now, I make the rules", or something to that effect. But truth is, kids ARE thinking what they want even when they're 2--nobody can change that. They can try and suppress it, sure, but what are the negative consequences of stifling a child's opinions/feelings/etc for the sake of "discipline" a thousand+ times over one's whole childhood??

Apparently the kids who are micromanaged when young often end up being really vulnerable to their peers as they get older. And, even if we the parents think that we give our kids TONS of freedom, it helps to remember that things like freedom/control (and more importantly, one's feelings toward that control) are *subjective*, or "in the eye of the beholder"--yk??

Just some thoughts I'm mulling over....


----------



## Mytwokids (Feb 2, 2004)

I've been reading through most of these posts and its been very interesting. I have some questions. I have an almost 5 year old daughter and a 2.5 year old son. I have visited this board before but not for a long time and I don't think I have ever posted here before. Letting go of control certainly did/does not come naturally for me. I never realized what a controlling person I was until I had children







. I came to find gentle discipline about 1.5 years ago and am still working on it. I assume it will be a lifetime project although it does come more naturally now than it did before. Anyway....

I believe in giving a lot of control to my kids in order for them to develop a sense of self control and self discipline. However I do control some things. As for food I'm not extremely controlling about when and what they eat but I do control what comes into the house. As for tv my kids sort of have a take it or leave it attitude. I do limit is some. Other medias such as computer time and music I don't really limit. I let me kids wear whatever they want whenever they want. I dont' force coats, hats and mittens and refuse to get into those types of battles. My kids can and have learned that it gets pretty darn cold here in MN and coats and hats keep you warm. Like most I control safety issues - no running in the street etc.

But I wonder about things like sleep. Obviously you can't make a child sleep but you certainly can set up situations to make it likey. You can have routine and bedtime rituals and consistent bedtimes. I do these things, I don't have bedtime or naptime battles at all. I do keep consistent bedtimes to ensure my kids get enough sleep. So I guess I do control their sleep to an extent. I'm wondering what is the opinion on controlling sleep times.

We have really two rules in our house, respect and safety. Most everything falls under respect. We treat each other, ourselves and our possesions - house, furniture and toys with respect. Safety is self explanatory. Cleaning after ourselves for us falls under respect. I'm wondering what others opinions are on controlling cleaning up afteroneself, cleaning up their rooms, etc. As part of respect we keep our space clean - respect for our stuff but also respect for each other so that we are not tripping on things etc. Do others control cleaning? How or how not? Cleaning up after themselves is probably the most comman battle I get into with my kids. I do try things to make it more fun and I explain why we clean up. I'm not completely anal or over the top on how they clean but general straigten up. If you dump one bin of toys out you put it away before dumping another out. They are able to do pretty much in the house under the premise they clean it up. For example they brought a blanket into the kitchen last night, pulled out lots of pots and pans and bowls etc and put them all over the blanket to make music. Thats fine with me but "messes we make, we clean up". And they did.

I guess while reading through these I get the impression that controlling cleaning behavior isn't allowed by some people. That the child needs to come to that on their own. I do believe in putting a lot of the control in the childs hands, how they clean-make their bed etc, but the cleaning must be done or at least attempted. Just looking for some opinions on where others stand on the issue.

Micky


----------

