# 4 year old screaming is intolerable, help me tolerate!



## Phoebe

I have 4 boys (2yrs-8yrs). My 3rd is 4 and seems to be the biggest challenge. He screams an immediate, high pitched shriek if he gets hurt physically (bumps, scrapes and such). It makes the ears ring and its truly difficult to comfort him. It is jarring to the nerves. I try to give him comfort and he continues this shrieking, often in the ear! I know it sounds callous, but ugh, it's hard to feel kind and tender toward him when he's going off like that. Of course, I fake it and comfort him anyway. Then I explain that it's hard for me to help him when he acts that way as it hurts my ears and nerves!
He also goes on angry crying jaggs when he gets frustrated. Screaming and refusing to listen to any help, guidance or encouragement. This behavior is overwhelming and disruptive for all of us. I remove him from the common area (luckily these episodes are usually only at home) while he kicks, punches and screams at me. He says terribly sad things to me in anger...I have no love for you, Mama!, never talk to you again!, etc.

Otherwise, he is a very sweet boy and smart as a whip. Lovely, adorable child with a giant personality. Very empathetic, kind and well mannered.
When he finally settles he is often very sad and sorry for the things he says and how he has behaved. But I hate for him to feel badly. I just want him to learn.

I just wish I knew how to reach him, particularly during his angry outbursts. You can't reach him because he never ceases yowling for long enough to get a word in!

For what it's worth, his brothers have had thier moments, but none this intense and constant (this occurs at least 1-2 times daily).

Gear this frayed-nerved Mama in the right direction, PLEASE!


----------



## kblackstone444

You could have been describing my nephew in your post. Does your son by any chance have any sensory issues?


----------



## mamazee

I've known a couple of kids with frustration and anger and noises like that who were a bit slower with language. How is his language coming? If it's a language issue, helping him come up with words to describe how he's feeling so he has another way to express his upset might help.

OTOH my more explosive child was way ahead with language and was explosive anyway. Some kids just take longer with the tantrums. She did not do the shrieking thing though. The kids I know who have done that have had trouble expressing how they feel and have found that to be the best way.

Even if he is OK with language, I think I'd probably try that. Empathize and then give him words and encourage him to talk about how he feels instead of shrieking. "You sound very angry! Did X make you angry? I can see how it would. How angry are you?"

That's one idea. Hopefully we'll get another few ideas of things you can try. Good luck!


----------



## Phoebe

Thanks for the reply.
He actually started using sentences at 16-18 months so language isn't the issue. He does need help in using words though. I will use your suggested dialogue when helping him express himself. I am usually so rattled in the moment it'll help to have a sort of script!


----------



## Phoebe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kblackstone444*
> 
> You could have been describing my nephew in your post. Does your son by any chance have any sensory issues?


No, I don't believe so but I'll look into it.


----------



## RoViMama

You just described my 4 yr DD. And it sounds like you handle it better than me!!!

My 6 yr dd and I are gluten free due to behavioral and digestive issues. The 4 yr was until about a year ago bc we were. DH and I wondered if she needed to be and DH wanted someone to eat cracker with. Anyway, with an increase in tantrums and straight to screaming at the first trigger, we decided to cut gluten again. The chronic rash on her back disappeared and while we did not track behaviors, there has been a decrease. We also have her in OT to work on self regulation.

So I guess what I'm saying is have you considered a food intolerance or sensory concern?


----------



## mary934

I am the one here who recommends taking a look at CPS - the collaborative problem solving approach by Ross Greene. Kids challenges are usually a result of lagging skills and unsolved problems where concerns of both parent and kid are not being met. We can be proactive and focus on specific problems , not behaviors , firstly trying to get your child's concern on the table and this is not easy , then sharing our concern, then defining the problem , leading to a brainstorming session to find a realistic and durable mutually satisfying solution that addresses both concerns . This whole process teaches many cognitive skills and promotes relationship

The key is to be proactive -in the moment is not a good time to try and reach him - so you come up with solutions that solve problems. Giving kids words does not solve the problem that is causing the behavior. he will be getting better at using words and articulating his concerns when we use the cps process.

So if he gets easily frustrated we need to be very specific and detailed about the scenarios/ unsolved problem that give rise to the frustration.

It is not easy , no magic bullet . We can try and reduce negative interactions by lowering the rope and spending time together doing things and connecting

i hope this helps


----------



## pek64

When his screaming is over, and he is calm, again, ask him to describe what he was feeling. You may be surprised by the answer.


----------



## vermontgirl

I am a gentle parent, but I must say that I do not tolerate screaming or shrieking. I have two children ages 6 and 4. They know that any emotion that they have is safe in our home, but there are rules in our home about the way that they express it. I know them well enough to know how bad something hurts, and if one of them truly hurts themselves and they are screaming I comfort them and try to give them as much comfort and love as possible. I can tell when they are just screaming to scream or to get attention or manipulate people. With my four year old daughter I will bring her upstairs to her bed and tell her to sit there until she is done screaming. She absolutely hates it and will stop right away. She says, "Ok mama I am done creaming." I say, "Are you sure?" If I can tell she is done screaming I will give her a hug and let her join everyone. I want her to know that I care about her feelings but that it hurts peoples ears when she behaves that way. My six year old rarely has these meltdowns anymore, but we had the same tactic with him when he did this. I think it is so important for children to feel loved and supported but to also have a firm rule about behavior. Screaming can absolutely become a really bad habit with children and I choose to nip it in the bud by being firm about it.

I find myself saying things like, "I am so sorry that you are angry, but you cannot scream that way." Or, "It is ok to feel that way, but it is not ok to throw a temper tantrum about it."


----------



## pek64

I hate it when others claim they know how someone else feels. You cannot know. You can guess.

The point I was trying to get to with my questions is -- sometimes there is a physical reason for the screaming. The original description reminded me of my son. As he got older, he got better at being able to *really* verbalize what he was feeling. And what he was feeling was migraines. He was in pain!! The "tantrum" was a case of the straw that broke the camel's back. When we eliminated the foods causing the migraines, the screaming stopped. It was not behavioral. It was physical.

High pitched screams are usually a sign of intense pain. No one deserves to suffer that.


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I hate it when others claim they know how someone else feels. You cannot know. You can guess.
> 
> The point I was trying to get to with my questions is -- sometimes there is a physical reason for the screaming. The original description reminded me of my son. As he got older, he got better at being able to *really* verbalize what he was feeling. And what he was feeling was migraines. He was in pain!! The "tantrum" was a case of the straw that broke the camel's back. When we eliminated the foods causing the migraines, the screaming stopped. It was not behavioral. It was physical.
> 
> High pitched screams are usually a sign of intense pain. No one deserves to suffer that.


I can understand that your issue was pain, but with children this age it is usually behavioral. Even if the child was in pain, the screaming would make it worse and I think it would be important to help the child communicate without screaming. Can you imagine what screaming would do to a migraine? I would still do the same thing even if it was chronic pain. Screaming just doesn't help at all.


----------



## pek64

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vermontgirl*
> 
> I can understand that your issue was pain, but with children this age it is usually behavioral. Even if the child was in pain, the screaming would make it worse and I think it would be important to help the child communicate without screaming. Can you imagine what screaming would do to a migraine? I would still do the same thing even if it was chronic pain. Screaming just doesn't help at all.


I asked my son, who knows what it felt like and doesn't have to imagine, and he tells me the screaming was a release or outlet of the pain, and made it better.

More important than communicating without screaming would be getting to the cause of the problem and correcting the problem.

I would err on the side of physical and look for causes and treat them. Only if I've exhausted the physical possibility would I come to the conclusion that it's behavioral. But that's because I also suffered as a child, and my mother "knew" it was behavioral. I avoid her these days.


----------



## Lazurii

My son screams like this. My nerves cannot handle is (anxiety issues and coming from an abusive childhood). I have him scream in his room with the door shut. He can cry as loudly as he wants out of his room and around me, but the piercing scream that shatters my nerves has to be done elsewhere. It's served us well.


----------



## Mittsy

I am wondering if he may have some over sensitivity to tactile stimuli going on. My dd(7.5) reacts the same way whenever she gets the slightest bit hurt, she also has a bunch of other tactile (and auditory) hypersensitivity issues, I will leave a link to the spd checklist so you can check it out.

http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/sensory-processing-disorder-checklist.html


----------



## Quinalla

That sounds really hard, I get really on edge with that high pitched, loud screaming too so I would have a hard time as well. Is he one of those kids that maybe needs to cool off by himself or maybe with you but not touching? I know most kids would rather be held close for comfort, but some do better with a little or a lot of space. When he is calm, can you talk to him about it? Does the screaming help him or would he be willing to try something else (words, hitting a pillow, a lower pitched yell, etc.)? What does he think would be most comforting for him when he is in that state? It sounds like he is on the sensitive side of things for sure.


----------



## marsupial-mom

My 3-year-old does something like this too. I hate it. I have basically three reactions, depending on my mood and patience:

1 - "You sound really upset. Do you want a hug?" This is good when followed up (when he's calm) by a discussion about what he can do next time he feels that way.

2 - "I don't understand that. Can you please speak in English?" This works best when he wants something from me. If he's not too upset already, he can usually his words 

3 - Ignore. Ignoring rarely works. But sometimes it's just a short burst of frustration that if I just ignore it will go away. And other times I know it won't work but it's the safest option because screaming drives me crazy.

---

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about sensory processing issues or migraines, etc. but it's probably worth looking into if the screaming seems abnormal.


----------



## pek64

I don't think "look into" is the same as jumping to conclusions. If it were me, I'd do some investigating of my own. Eliminating the cause is the best solution, in my opinion.


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marsupial-mom*
> 
> My 3-year-old does something like this too. I hate it. I have basically three reactions, depending on my mood and patience:
> 
> 1 - "You sound really upset. Do you want a hug?" This is good when followed up (when he's calm) by a discussion about what he can do next time he feels that way.
> 
> 2 - "I don't understand that. Can you please speak in English?" This works best when he wants something from me. If he's not too upset already, he can usually his words
> 
> 3 - Ignore. Ignoring rarely works. But sometimes it's just a short burst of frustration that if I just ignore it will go away. And other times I know it won't work but it's the safest option because screaming drives me crazy.
> 
> ---
> 
> I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about sensory processing issues or migraines, etc. but it's probably worth looking into if the screaming seems abnormal.


This sounds really gentle and sweet, but I think it is important for kids to know that they are not the only ones in the room and also that they are not the only ones who matter. I personally don't like to hear high pitched screaming. It gives me a headache and kills my nerves. Everyone in the room other than the child would feel this way no matter where you are. Remove them from the room. Give them love, but make sure there is somewhere they are put when they do this until they stop and can join others in a respectful way. I can understand this gentle approach, but I think that when child is screaming to this high pitched level they are beyond "You sound upset, do you need a hug?" And I think it is ok to put them on their bed or in another room and lovlingly tell them that you love them and when they are done screaming they can come out and get hugs and talk about things. This is not removing love or not being a gentle parent. It is giving your child the message that others matter too. I am really irked by parents who let their kids do whatever they want even if it effects others. Ignoring it is allowing it.


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I don't think "look into" is the same as jumping to conclusions. If it were me, I'd do some investigating of my own. Eliminating the cause is the best solution, in my opinion.


The cause is typically behavioral. A child screaming this way because of intense pain is a rarity.


----------



## pek64

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vermontgirl*
> 
> The cause is typically behavioral. A child screaming this way because of intense pain is a rarity.


The high pitched nature of the scream implies pain to me. Frustration screaming is not usually so high pitched.


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> The high pitched nature of the scream implies pain to me. Frustration screaming is not usually so high pitched.


Manipulation screams are. Especially when they have learned that they will get whatever they want, or control the room by screaming that way.


----------



## pek64

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vermontgirl*
> 
> Manipulation screams are. Especially when they have learned that they will get whatever they want, or control the room by screaming that way.


I believe that young children do not manipulate. Period. They too straightforward. Much of what is perceived as manipulation is actually the adult projecting their own behavior onto the child.

We can keep going on this issue, vermontgirl, but I see no purpose to that. I have raised all the children I am going to raise, the youngest now 17. I will not be changing. You seem equally set in your convictions. I suggest we call it a draw.

Edited to add : Also, the title of the thread says that the original poster is looking for advice to help her be more tolerant.


----------



## gitanamama

My son (almost 3) has started screaming in a similar way. His screams are part of tantrums, which often end in him crying so hard that he throws up. I have tried everything in my repertoire of gentle parenting techniques to help him through these tantrums, but nothing seems to work. I try empathizing, offering alternatives, helping name his feelings--- talking to him just seems to make him more angry. Giving him want he wants is the only way to end the tantrum and 50% of the time I refuse to do this on principle (he wants a cookie or candy or to watch a show...) and the other 50% of the time I'm unable to give him what he wants/needs (his graham cracker broke in half and he wants it to be whole again, the sun is too bright, etc.) Our current solution is to leave the room that he is in, while explaining that his screaming is hurting our ears. I also try to talk/empathize with him first and offer him a hug and a glass of water, but usually anything I say just makes him more angry-- and louder. Eventually he reaches a point where he comes to me for a hug and then I hold him and talk with him until he calms down....but I have no idea how to prevent these tantrums.

It's painful to watch him suffer through these, and it also completely exhausts my patience when he screams with all his power. I've actually been worried that our neighbors are going to call child protective services at some point. :/

So I can't offer any advice OP-- just commiseration. I've considered dietary and sensory issues, but other than always being a *spirited* kiddo and more high needs than most, DS seems healthy and well adjusted. My hope is that this is a phase before a big developmental leap. The month before DS started talking was hell, in a different way, but it makes me think that DS's system just has a hard time before big growth spurts.

Have you tried earplugs?! (that's a joke


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> I believe that young children do not manipulate. Period. They too straightforward. Much of what is perceived as manipulation is actually the adult projecting their own behavior onto the child.
> 
> We can keep going on this issue, vermontgirl, but I see no purpose to that. I have raised all the children I am going to raise, the youngest now 17. I will not be changing. You seem equally set in your convictions. I suggest we call it a draw.
> 
> Edited to add : Also, the title of the thread says that the original poster is looking for advice to help her be more tolerant.


Of course children manipulate! They may be pure and precious, but they are still little human beings. If they see that they can control a room, or get what they want by acting a particular way they will keep doing it. I have seen it time and time again and have had friends who go along with it all in the name of gentle parenting. I believe in gentle parenting, and I consider myself to be a gentle parent but I also believe that I am in fact the parent and my job is to guide them out of behaviors that will only harm them in the long run. A child who is allowed to scream in a roomful of people as a way to preserve their feelings or parent them gently, they are being given the clear message that they are the only important one in the room and they are allowed to behave however they want, even if it effects others. That is not healthy and it will only harm their future relationships with people.


----------



## newmamalizzy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gitanamama*
> 
> Have you tried earplugs?! (that's a joke


Ha! I actually HAVE used earplugs when my daughter is having a screamy day and I'm feeling on edge. I can still hear her with the earplugs in, but it takes the edge off of the sound enough that I can stay calm when I otherwise would have gone nuts. Not something to do every day, but a decent stopgap measure for keeping your cool, I think.


----------



## pek64

Sadly, it wasn't that long ago that child experts were claiming that infants were manipulating when cried to be fed more frequently than the schedule deemed adequate. While many people manipulate, adults and children, in my experience four is too young for crying, even screaming, to be manipulative.


----------



## RoViMama

I have replied earlier but I wanted to add that we have started OT and returned to gluten free for my 4 yr old and the straight to screaming, uncontrollable reaction has decreased from daily level 10 to a weekly level 4. Something I can handle and she feels much better. Today she sent herself to her room until she could calm hereself down when her sister was driving her crazy


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pek64*
> 
> Sadly, it wasn't that long ago that child experts were claiming that infants were manipulating when cried to be fed more frequently than the schedule deemed adequate. While many people manipulate, adults and children, in my experience four is too young for crying, even screaming, to be manipulative.


Im going to completely agree with you that babies don't manipulate. They cry and scream (unless you are awesome enough to meet their needs before they do this) because they need something. I am a huge believer in feeding babies on demand and always helping them when they are vocal. My favorite thing was (and will be in a couple weeks) to carry them around in a sling with my breast out inside it so they could hop on whenever they wanted. No need to cry at all! I know their cues, and they rarely have to become hysterical to have their needs met.

I do have a four year old, and she knows how to communicate what she is thinking and feeling perfectly without screaming. In my mind there is a HUGE difference! She is still a teeny girl, so I am patient and I direct her to use her regular voice on all occasions. If she has a harder time, I assume that something else is going on. Either she is hungry, or tired, or upset about something but doesn't realize this. I do expect her to use her regular voice and talk to me, but I don't expect her to know if she is hungry or sleepy. I can normally figure it out. My favorite thing to do is hug her and try to give her a snack in case that is the right remedy for her. Sometimes after I give her a snack and snuggle her she is all better and her mood dramatically changes. If it doesn't, I recognise that she is tired and I give her a bath and put her to bed a little earlier. I don't think she manipulates us, because we have not allowed her to but I do think that some children do because a parenting style has yielded that sort of behavior. I have seen it with my own eyes, and I don't think it is the child's fault. I think that being loving and figuring out what is wrong but also being firm and having expectations about behavior is a hard balance at a young age.

We are all doing the best we can do, and we all know our kids more than everyone else.


----------



## mamazee

I don't think 4-year-olds only scream because they're in pain, but I'm uncomfortable with the word "manipulate" for some reason. I think they sometimes scream to get what they want, and they think people aren't listening to them and understanding how much they want it, so they scream, but I don't see that as manipulation. I think it's a pretty straightforward way to try to force someone to do what they want. I think of manipulation as being deceitful, and when I see 4-year-olds scream to get something they want, it doesn't seem deceitful to me. So I think I agree with some of what you say, vermontgirl, but I'm not sure about the word "manipulate."

I have a 4-year-old, and I have an older child who was once 4. I think when they scream to get something they want it's more of a plain old tantrum of frustration and disappointment. They want X, we don't want them to have X, they scream to get X because they don't understand that they aren't always going to get their way and that everything turns out OK even if you don't get X when you want it. It just seems like plain old immaturity to me. I treat it as simple immaturity rather than manipulation.

I also agree with the PP (pek?) who said it's worth investigating to see if there is some kind of pain or something. I try to enter into any situation like this with an initial assumption of the best intent possible. I assume, until I have information to show me otherwise, that they are behaving well and anything they do is due to a legitimate need. I gather information (which doesn't always take very long) and eliminate possibilities. "Is this due to pain?" If no, then, check to see if they really need X. Then I ask myself to reconsider whether I'm being reasonable in my decision to not let them have it. If I get past that and they're still screaming that they want X, I empathize with them and try to help them through their disappointment. I don't see expressions of disappointment as manipulation, however I also don't feel a need to eliminate feelings of disappointment by giving in. I guess I don't see it as misbehavior even, just as immaturity. Hmm now I'm rethinking that. It is behavior I expect them to outgrow, so I guess as far as that goes, it is misbehavior. It's just behavior I try to help them outgrow rather than behavior I get upset about.

It's an interesting conversation and it's made me think about the word "manipulate" more than I have in the past.


----------



## pek64

Phoebe, how about an update. What has been happening?


----------



## CarrieAnn172

I would highly recomend reading Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheeda Kurcinka and How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk by Adele Faber. You basically described my 4 year old! We also cut out gluten and this has helped. Since putting those two books into action and changing his diet, I would say we've cut the screaming episodes down to about once every other day, and that is something my nerves can handle. Much better than the 3-4 times a day that were happening. Plus I was scared to leave the house because I was anxious about him having a meltdown like this in public and it's hard to care for my younger one while I'm trying to comfort my 4 year old and keeping him contained. Good luck!


----------



## pek64

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarrieAnn172*
> 
> I would highly recomend reading Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheeda Kurcinka and How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk by Adele Faber. You basically described my 4 year old! We also cut out gluten and this has helped. Since putting those two books into action and changing his diet, I would say we've cut the screaming episodes down to about once every other day, and that is something my nerves can handle. Much better than the 3-4 times a day that were happening. Plus I was scared to leave the house because I was anxious about him having a meltdown like this in public and it's hard to care for my younger one while I'm trying to comfort my 4 year old and keeping him contained. Good luck!


I'm glad you found a way to address his needs, as well as your own!! And that is the point, by identifying underlying problems and correcting them, the parents also win! I wonder if a food-mood log or diary would uncover anything additional.


----------



## vermontgirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CarrieAnn172*
> 
> I would highly recomend reading Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheeda Kurcinka


I also recommend this book. It worked great for my son.


----------



## Phoebe

Thanks for all the responses! Very insightful.

As of the last week or so my 4yo has been sleeping about an hour later in the morning. The change in his behavior is remarkable. This morning he woke up at his old time, 5:30...ugh. We'll see how the day goes.


----------



## Lazurii

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phoebe*
> 
> Thanks for all the responses! Very insightful.
> 
> As of the last week or so my 4yo has been sleeping about an hour later in the morning. The change in his behavior is remarkable. *This morning he woke up at his old time, 5:30*...ugh. We'll see how the day goes.



















Oh, poor mama. I am so sorry.


----------

