# Can we discuss harnessed vs. booster? ETA a couple more points of discussion



## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

I see (and hear) differing opinions on the subject all the time. To my knowledge, there is no evidence out there to support either way (am I wrong?)

The things I know to affect safety of a booster seat: age, maturity, and size.

For a long time, I thought it was safest to harness as long as possible, then I started seeing that there is really no added protection vs. a booster for a child who fits properly and can sit in one correctly...perhaps that at some point a booster may be safer due to head excursion?

I'm quite far from needing to think much about this for my kids, but I'd like to know anyway, so give me your opinion on the subject and what you know.

Thanks!









ETA: Does anyone have opinions on boosters with TSIP, LATCH capabilities (is this for when the booster is not in use only?), and the anti-submarine clips? Does this increase safety of a booster, or just an added perk?


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

My understanding is that harnessed is safer for everyone even adults. That is why race car drives are harnessed.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

I've heard that argument before, but have also seen lots against it. I saw it in a thread a few days ago--first of all, race car drivers have their helmets tethered to avoid the head excursion. It's all set up differently, and not really relative to carseats for children.

I do get the point, though.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Assuming that we are discussing children who meet the minimums (best practice minimums are 4y/40#) and who are developmentally ready to use a booster properly, and the booster fits the child and the car well, and there is a three-point (shoulder and lap) vehicle belt, and all those other good things...

There is no demonstrated safety advantage to harnessing a child who can correctly use a booster. There is speculation that harnessing is safer, there is speculation (and one non-definitive study) that harnessing may increase neck loads, there is speculation that kids in a harnessed seat on a base may have higher head excursion because of the higher point of gravity. *There is no clear answer. This is a parental judgement call.*

My personal opinion -- based on evidence and research, but still just one person's opinion since there is no definitive answers either way -- is that I would without question recommend a BPB over an *untethered* forward-facing harnessed seat (and refer back to first paragraph for disclaimers). I would also prefer a booster over a harnessed seat on a base, with the same disclaimers. I do think harnessed seats are better than boosters in tight three-across situations because there is actually less chance of misuse.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
My personal opinion -- based on evidence and research, but still just one person's opinion since there is no definitive answers either way -- is that I would without question recommend a BPB over an *untethered* forward-facing harnessed seat (and refer back to first paragraph for disclaimers). I would also prefer a booster over a harnessed seat on a base, with the same disclaimers. I do think harnessed seats are better than boosters in tight three-across situations because there is actually less chance of misuse.

What about over a tethered FF harnessed seat? And what is a harnessed seat on a base?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Like I said, assuming the child is physically and developmentally ready for a booster (usually around 5yo-6yo, but a few 4yos are ready and a few 7yos are not), I don't have a preference between booster and harness.

A Marathon is a harnessed seat on a base:

http://www.britaxusa.com/uploads/pro...on-5-bbd-l.jpg

A Radian is a harnessed seat that is not on a base (it sits directly on the vehicle seat):

http://www.skjp.com/oimg/thm/t351_x1...307_203652.jpg


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
A Marathon is a harnessed seat on a base:

http://www.britaxusa.com/uploads/pro...on-5-bbd-l.jpg

A Radian is a harnessed seat that is not on a base (it sits directly on the vehicle seat):

http://www.skjp.com/oimg/thm/t351_x1...307_203652.jpg

Ah, I see the difference now. Thanks for clarifying. Off to figure out what the Frontier is which is what we have. I've never really noticed







.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Frontier does not have a base.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Frontier does not have a base.

After looking at the seat, I guess that should have been really obvious to me before







. I guess it's just something I never thought about or saw mentioned before.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, the whole question of to harness or not to harness has had me scratching my head for awhile now. From what I've read about here and elsewhere, it seems that there are basically two distinct camps:

1. Harnessing is better because it just seems obvious that more protection is better. I often see race car drivers mentioned here as well as a specific youtube video but no hard evidence.

2. As long as the the 4yr/40lb/developmental readiness requirements are met, it probably doesn't matter. Sometimes head excursion is mentioned here as a potential risk of harnessing, and I sometimes see Sweden mentioned here, but the bottom line seems to be it doesn't matter either way. Again, no hard evidence given.

I've never really seen anyone come out strongly against extended harnessing, at least not for safety reasons. Usually it's more about social issues, thinking it's overkill, etc.

Anyway, I think this is just one of those things that everyone just has to decide for themselves (assuming the basic requirements are met of course) because there isn't enough evidence either way. My daughter is almost 4 and is just over 40lbs, and my plan is to just continue on harnessing until she seems mature enough to sit in a booster which doesn't seem to be any time soon.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

The Kyle David ****** video had a small 3yo in a booster. It was tragic that he died. But it's slightly misleading, and not a good reason to harness kids "as long as possible". 4yo/40# is the bare minimum for best practice, and most of us recognize that most (of course there are exceptions) kids aren't ready for full-time booster use until 5-6-ish. No techs/advocates -- even those who are comfortable with boosters -- recommend boostering a small 3yo. (And while I do not want to dissect it here -- it's been done to death on car-seat.org if anyone cares to search -- there is some evidence that the booster was misused to begin with.)

There is a world of difference between a 50# 6yo in a properly-used well-fitting booster -- which is what I am discussing in this thread -- and a small 3yo in a possibly-misused booster.

I have nothing against extended harnessing as long as it's done properly -- most kids outgrow most seats by height rather than weight, and I've seen *lots* of kids in outgrown Marathons/Boulevards because the parents think it's "safer". There are situations where I would prefer a good booster, but that's personal preference/recommendations, not a hard-and-fast rule.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Chickabiddy, as always, is the epitome of correctness









The child must be at least four.

The child must weight at least forty pounds.

The child must have the developmental maturity to sit correctly 100% of the time. T_his doesn't usually occur until between the fifth and sixth birthday_, and for some kids, it's more.

In short, a few four year olds can sit safely in a booster, many five year olds can, and nearly all six year olds can.

Kyle David ****** is an example of an exceedingly sad case of a child who was simply too young to be in a booster. His sister, who was of an age and size that is appropriate for a booster, survived the accident.

Harnessing is great, but it's not comparable to 'race car harnesses' which I keep seeing mentioned. Different crash forces, different kind of harness, different kind of vehicle.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

My big issue with extended harnessing is that it provides two points of failure - the seatbelt or LATCH securing the carseat can fail, OR the harness securing the child can fail, and in either case your kid goes flying. My 3.5 yo dd rides FFing in a top-tethered Radian, and I think that's a good choice for her age, height and weight, but when she is bigger and I can put her in a BPB, I will be relieved to be rid of the harness.

If there are any studies anywhere that examine the possible compounded risk of belt-plus-harness restraint systems, I am not aware of them.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

While harnessing does create a second point of potential failure, there has never been, to my knowledge, a real life documented case of a harness failing when used according to manufacturer directions.

I wouldn't consider that, in the grand scheme of things, something really worth worrying about.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
ETA: Does anyone have opinions on boosters with TSIP, LATCH capabilities (is this for when the booster is not in use only?), and the anti-submarine clips? Does this increase safety of a booster, or just an added perk?

There is no standard or regulation for side impact protection. Terms like True Side Impact Protection are developed in the marketing department, not the engineering department. I do prefer deeper wings and body protection when possible, but it doesn't matter to me if they have a special name like "TSIP".

Boosters that are meant to be LATCHed can be LATCHed in use. There is no proof that LATCHing is beneficial or not. There is one study (not definitive) that seems to indicate it may provide some additional side impact protection. There is another study (also not definitive) that seems to indicate that rigid LATCH may cause the vehicle belts to ride high on the abdomen during a crash. Again, no proof either way and not enough data to draw conclusions, just some suggestions. If you are likely to forget to buckle an unused booster, LATCH would be a good thing, otherwise the booster becomes a projectile.

Anti-submarine features are most beneficial to smaller kids. The Britax ParkwaySG has a clip. The Sunshine Kids Monterey has an angled seat which also provides some anti-submarine protection.


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## maciascl (Nov 11, 2004)

What is a BPB?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Belt-Positioning Booster.


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## maciascl (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Belt-Positioning Booster.









Thanks!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Is there any evidence/research for the under 40lbs child over 4yrs who sits correctly? I've read some things that allude to increased chance to submarine in lighter kids, but nothing solid.

-Angela


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I'm not aware of any specifically.

Very roughly, most techs are generally willing to subtract a few pounds per year: I'd "okay" a 32# 7yo but not a 32# 5yo, for instance. (And this does not work in reverse -- even if a 2yo is 50#, s/he still needs to be harnessed.)


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## THBVsMommy (Mar 13, 2007)

Can someone point me in the right direction to proper booster use for the child?

Here is my issue. I'd love to keep DS harnessed as long as possible, but I seriously doubt he'll be able to be harnessed much longer past his fourth birthday simply due to how tall he is. At just 3.5 years old he is already 43 inches tall [ _& 45 lbs_ ]. He is currently harnessed in a Frontier but is already at the highest harness slot allowable for harness use. If he grows any taller his shoulders will surpass that harness slot. I know that once he's 4 he'll be at the minimum age/weight requirements, but I just don't know that he is mature enough for proper booster use. He doesn't slouch while riding, but his head does flop forward when he falls asleep and if I'm not mistaken, isn't that a sign he's not ready for a booster? I know that he can mature a lot in the upcoming months before his birthday [ _5 mos_ ], but I just don't feel confident in moving him. I'm hoping his growth has stunted for a while in the meantime..


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THBVsMommy* 
Can someone point me in the right direction to proper booster use for the child?

Here is my issue. I'd love to keep DS harnessed as long as possible, but I seriously doubt he'll be able to be harnessed much longer past his fourth birthday simply due to how tall he is. At just 3.5 years old he is already 43 inches tall [ _& 45 lbs_ ]. He is currently harnessed in a Frontier but is already at the highest harness slot allowable for harness use. If he grows any taller his shoulders will surpass that harness slot. I know that once he's 4 he'll be at the minimum age/weight requirements, but I just don't know that he is mature enough for proper booster use. He doesn't slouch while riding, but his head does flop forward when he falls asleep and if I'm not mistaken, isn't that a sign he's not ready for a booster? I know that he can mature a lot in the upcoming months before his birthday [ _5 mos_ ], but I just don't feel confident in moving him. I'm hoping his growth has stunted for a while in the meantime..

DS is 44 inches and on the third slot in the nautilus and regent--and he just moved to the third slot on the regent. Your son could have a longer torso than my son, but that would be a really long torso.

This is my son right before we moved his straps up. http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...7_584201_n.jpg


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## THBVsMommy (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
DS is 44 inches and on the third slot in the nautilus and regent--and he just moved to the third slot on the regent. Your son could have a longer torso than my son, but that would be a really long torso.

This is my son right before we moved his straps up. http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...7_584201_n.jpg

Does the Regent have a higher harness height than the Frontier?


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

It's 20 inches. The frontier is 18 or 18.5, I think.


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## THBVsMommy (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
It's 20 inches. The frontier is 18 or 18.5, I think.

Do you think I should spend the money to keep him harnessed past his 4th birthday if he ends up growing another half inch or so? Or would it even be worth the money because there's only an inch and a half difference? I want him to be as safe as possible, but we just bought this seat in July because he grew out of his Decathalon.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

As a parent, you are the only one that can make my call. It is my experience that most newly-4yos need to be harnessed, though.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

When you can, measure his seated height (floor to shoulder). I can't quite remember the math to see how much overall growth that means, but I'm thinking that means 5 inches overall growth. Of course, you never know when a growth spurt will hit or how much they'll grow, but it's highly unlikely that a child would outgrow a regent at age 4.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Why does it matter if the seat has a base or not? How does it affect the seat??


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

oops double post


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THBVsMommy* 
He is currently harnessed in a Frontier but is already at the highest harness slot allowable for harness use.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. ALL of the harness heights are usable on a frontier. It's only the cosco/dorel convertibles and combos with the harness that slides up that you can't use the top one (with the exception of the newer ones that go to 50 lbs that is).


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

anti-submarine protection.
What on earth is that supposed to mean??

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
DS is 44 inches and on the third slot in the nautilus and regent--and he just moved to the third slot on the regent. Your son could have a longer torso than my son, but that would be a really long torso.

This is my son right before we moved his straps up. http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...7_584201_n.jpg

My daughter has a very long torso. She wears an 8 in shirts and dresses. She has one more slot to go in the Nautilus. I keep her harnessed becuase she *will not* sit correctly with the belt in a booster. (5.5)


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
What on earth is that supposed to mean??

"Submarining" is used to describe what happens when a person slides out from under the lap belt portion of the seatbelt.

Submarining used to be extremely common with lap-only belts. It's still a risk with booster riders who are too small.

A less substantial problem is just the butt scooting forward enough that the seatbelt rises on the abdomen. The anti-submarine guard prevents that as well.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Brandi, my son was in a BPB when he was that height and weight. I don't recall that he fell asleep in the car often, but when he did, his head flopped onto the side wings of the booster seat. If this is a potentially deadly problem, then I'm very glad he survived it - but it doesn't seem like it could be.

IIRC, the Frontier can be used as a booster. Why not buckle him up, drive around the block, and see how he reacts? You don't have to commit to either course of action (using a booster or buying a new seat) until you see how YOUR SPECIFIC KID reacts to being buckled. My ds is not a bender/leaner/belt yanker, and never had been. My dd will go to junior high in a harnessed seat unless she becomes equally reliable about keeping her belt positioned. And she knows this


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
I'm not sure what you mean by this. ALL of the harness heights are usable on a frontier. It's only the cosco/dorel convertibles and combos with the harness that slides up that you can't use the top one (with the exception of the newer ones that go to 50 lbs that is).

Yes, what you said is true, but the booster portion of the frontier goes higher than the harness does. i'm sure that's what she meant, even though it was worded a little confusingly. Once you get to the top slots on a frontier, you can then pull a screw out of the headrest, and pull the headrest up even FURTHER, for booster mode only.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
What on earth is that supposed to mean??

5)










I'm ROFL here.

I know what submarining is, (I'm a tech), but when phrased that way, and with your "WTF?" response, it made me laugh SO hard. Now I'm picturing little submarines and trying to figure out how on earth a carseat could provide protection against one....*sigh* it's one of those things that isn't funny to anyone but me, but i'm in hysterics!


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 








I'm ROFL here.

I know what submarining is, (I'm a tech), but when phrased that way, and with your "WTF?" response, it made me laugh SO hard. Now I'm picturing little submarines and trying to figure out how on earth a carseat could provide protection against one....*sigh* it's one of those things that isn't funny to anyone but me, but i'm in hysterics!


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Also, a little known but TRUE fact...the Britax Parkway SlideGuard provides anti-tank defenses and also, air support. Scout's honor.


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## sweetcheeks (May 21, 2005)

Ok, so how do these "anti-submarine" clips work? (pics possibly?) DD is a long and very lean girl. I've told her that she can switch to a booster when she's 5.5 (so next winter) but at the rate she gains weight, she'll just be at 40lbs by then. So I'm thinking I might want a booster for her that offers this "anti-submarine" feature.


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## s_kristina (Aug 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *THBVsMommy* 
Do you think I should spend the money to keep him harnessed past his 4th birthday if he ends up growing another half inch or so? Or would it even be worth the money because there's only an inch and a half difference? I want him to be as safe as possible, but we just bought this seat in July because he grew out of his Decathalon.

I personally would spend the $150 to keep him harnessed in the Nautilus. You need to also keep in mind that once the harness is outgrown it makes a wonderful booster. My ds will be 4 in a few weeks and has just moved to the top slots on the Nautilus. When we first got the Nautilus I compared the height of it used as a booster to the height of my dd's turbo booster. The Nautilus has a higher back by at least an inch. Her booster is gone now as it is past the expiration date so I can't check the heights for sure.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetcheeks* 
Ok, so how do these "anti-submarine" clips work? (pics possibly?) DD is a long and very lean girl. I've told her that she can switch to a booster when she's 5.5 (so next winter) but at the rate she gains weight, she'll just be at 40lbs by then. So I'm thinking I might want a booster for her that offers this "anti-submarine" feature.

It's just a crotch strap. It secures on the booster where a regular crotch strap on a harnessed seat would, and 'clips' onto the lap belt between the child's legs, forcing it to stay low on the thighs.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *s_kristina* 
I personally would spend the $150 to keep him harnessed in the Nautilus

I just checked because I was curious, and it looks like the highest harness slot on the Nautilus is actually lower (17.5") that the highest harness slot on the Frontier (18.25"), so it doesn't seem like that would be an option.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I just checked because I was curious, and it looks like the highest harness slot on the Nautilus is actually lower (17.5") that the highest harness slot on the Frontier (18.25"), so it doesn't seem like that would be an option.

NOPE!
The nauti is higher.

There are varying reports on this, and different people measure differently, and different children fit differently into the seats, and sometimes the vehicle in which the seat is installed makes a difference, but the vast majority of people get more room in a nautilus over a frontier. Both top slots are about 18.25 inches...(not sure who told you 17.5 for the nauti) although again, that sort of depends on who is measuring.

I have pics somewhere.........but my dd definitely has more room in her nauti. At worst, they are even. There have only ever been a small handful of people to ever say they get more room in a frontier, and then only by a tad, and again...only a couple. everyone else gets equal room, or more room in the nauti.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
There are varying reports on this, and different people measure differently, and different children fit differently into the seats, and sometimes the vehicle in which the seat is installed makes a difference, but the vast majority of people get more room in a nautilus over a frontier. Both top slots are about 18.25 inches...(not sure who told you 17.5 for the nauti) although again, that sort of depends on who is measuring.

I found the info at Elite Car Seats where I've purchased seats before. They've been accurate about everything so far, but I have no doubt that there are potential variations in measurements like you mentioned

Either way though, it seems since the PP already has a Frontier that it might be kind of a waste to buy another seat that may or may not be able to be used harnessed any longer.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I just checked because I was curious, and it looks like the highest harness slot on the Nautilus is actually lower (17.5") that the highest harness slot on the Frontier (18.25"), so it doesn't seem like that would be an option.

Where'd you read that? Definitely not true. The Nautilus measures at just a hair above 18", and the Frontier a hair below that.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Where'd you read that? Definitely not true. The Nautilus measures at just a hair above 18", and the Frontier a hair below that.

Maybe we cross posted. I found it at elitecarseats,com.

ETA - Britax states the Frontier slots are 18.25







.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Yep, we cross posted.

I've seen other errors in information on elitecarseats, and would take what they have to say with a grain of salt or three.


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
There is no standard or regulation for side impact protection. Terms like True Side Impact Protection are developed in the marketing department, not the engineering department. I do prefer deeper wings and body protection when possible, but it doesn't matter to me if they have a special name like "TSIP".

I am a big HBB person for sleeping for sure, but did anyone else get that new study about there being no statistical difference between backless and HB boosters? My local safekids sent it to me last week I think. I wouldn't have predicted that.

I am in the camp thinking that a TETHERED harnessed seat and a properly used booster are about equivalent. I think for my kids personally I will transition between 6 and 7, but I'm not there yet so I don't know for sure. The tether makes a huge difference in terms of head excursion which is the biggest issue with heavy kids in harnesses.


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh and as for the submarine clip, I definitely don't see any harm in the slightest, and can see some improvement in very small boostered kids. For a kid that I would really think is developmentally appropriate, I see no big advantage.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Karen** 
I am a big HBB person for sleeping for sure, but did anyone else get that new study about there being no statistical difference between backless and HB boosters? My local safekids sent it to me last week I think. I wouldn't have predicted that.

I saw it briefly, but haven't had time to go through it yet. I wonder what boosters they used? Because I'd actually agree that there isn't much difference between the (for instance) Cosco HBB and a backless and in fact, I'd prefer most backlesses because of the way they position the lap belt. But if they tested (again, an example) a Recaro Vivo and came to those conclusions, I'd have to do a whole lot of rethinking.


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I saw it briefly, but haven't had time to go through it yet. I wonder what boosters they used? Because I'd actually agree that there isn't much difference between the (for instance) Cosco HBB and a backless and in fact, I'd prefer most backlesses because of the way they position the lap belt. But if they tested (again, an example) a Recaro Vivo and came to those conclusions, I'd have to do a whole lot of rethinking.

Very true, and I am interested in the same thing.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

The new "study" wasn't actual testing done with any seats, it was real life crash data they used to determine the results. Real life crash data from the last 15 years. ya.
We all know the vast majority of "highback" boosters that were likely to have been used by most of the mainsteram public....crappy cosco highbacks, cargos, chases, summits and dorel 3-in-1s in booster mode probably would have been a SIGNIFICANT portion of the HB boosters included in the crash data...also probably some turbos and evenflos, etc. And god only know the kind of misuse there might have been...
I wish the full details of teh study were available, but I don't have a script to pediatrics...


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Chickabiddy has provided very nice and well educated answers
















Older children, 4+, are not any safer in harnessed seats compared to high back boosters. There is no data, statistics or real life experiences showing this. It's a myth. People who work with car seats and have a deeper knowledge know this very well. So does all researchers. There is no benefit for harnessing older kids unless there are special needs.

A FF harnessed seat offer good protection just as a high back booster. It's nowhere near as good as rear facing but both methods are approved and work well.

The Swedes, who are 30 years ahead of other countries in car seat safety, recommend against harnessing older kids. No kids sit FF in harnessed seats, everyone uses a high back booster. The safety stats, which does include many more factors than pure car seat use, are simply amazing.

The discussion about harnessing vs. booster is in my opinion a little unfortunate since more focus should instead be on RF vs. FF where the safety difference is 500% in favor of RF.

My son sat Rf to 4+ and then moved to a BPB (Britax Kid Plus), sitting nicely has never been a problem. My daughter is now just over 3 and will sit RF for at least another year and will then move to a BPB.

Quote:

My understanding is that harnessed is safer for everyone even adults. That is why race car drives are harnessed.
Not correct. Race car drivers have almost nothing in common with kids in FF harnessed seats. Children have weak neck muscles and can't be compared with adults. Race car drivers also use extra neck protection/harness.

Another huge difference is the ride-down time in a collision. A race car drivers seat is bolted to the body of the car. A FF harnessed seat for a child adds another level of mounting which means ride down time is very different. A child is normally calculated as being stopped in 60 ms (milliseconds) in a collision. In a FF harnessed seat a child move forward during those first 30 ms which means forces are huge during those last 30 ms which has to absorb all the forces. It's kind of technical (and boring for most) discussion which could go on forever.

Quote:

1. Harnessing is better because it just seems obvious that more protection is better. I often see race car drivers mentioned here as well as a specific youtube video but no hard evidence.
Not correct. Crash dynamics in a ff harnessed seat are completely different. It looks far better in a video but what most parents feel is the weakness of a HBB is actually the strength. A larger part of a child's body absorb the forces.

Quote:

I've never really seen anyone come out strongly against extended harnessing, at least not for safety reasons. Usually it's more about social issues, thinking it's overkill, etc.
It's not used in Sweden but I personally think protection is still good. There is no reason to avoid FF harnessing. HBB does have other factors which are beneficial for safety. They are cheaper, easier to install, easier to move, etc.

Quote:

The child must weight at least forty pounds.
This is the law in some places but has little effect on overall safety. Age is the important factor, not weight. There is no difference in safety for a normal child who is 35 or 45 lbs.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
The discussion about harnessing vs. booster is in my opinion a little unfortunate since more focus should instead be on RF vs. FF where the safety difference is 500% in favor of RF.

Absolutely. This should always be mentioned.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
It's not used in Sweden but I personally think protection is still good. There is no reason to avoid FF harnessing. HBB does have other factors which are beneficial for safety. They are cheaper, easier to install, easier to move, etc.

I think this is the key. Is it doing any HARM to have the extra protection for a child not developmentally appropriate? I have no stats, just opinions, but I think that with a properly tethered seat that there is no harm done and no stress to make sure the kid isn't bouncing all over the car.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobandjess99* 
The new "study" wasn't actual testing done with any seats, it was real life crash data they used to determine the results. Real life crash data from the last 15 years. ya.
We all know the vast majority of "highback" boosters that were likely to have been used by most of the mainsteram public....crappy cosco highbacks, cargos, chases, summits and dorel 3-in-1s in booster mode probably would have been a SIGNIFICANT portion of the HB boosters included in the crash data...also probably some turbos and evenflos, etc. And god only know the kind of misuse there might have been...
I wish the full details of teh study were available, but I don't have a script to pediatrics...

I remember this now. But this in and of itself is very interesting. If you want to go cheap, just go backless.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.

I think it is very relevant, as what we are discussing is if these upper price boosters really provide the side impact protection that they claim. Since this is from the general public, and the general public does not purchase these types of boosters there is no way to tell. That helps to tell us that we still don't have an answer, but at least it tells us something.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 

This is the law in some places but has little effect on overall safety. Age is the important factor, not weight. There is no difference in safety for a normal child who is 35 or 45 lbs.

As I have said numerous times, this is not true. While I appreciate your zeal for extended rear facing, and your point that a booster or a forward facing harnessed seat are both safe for an older child, _there are studies showing increased risk for a young boostered child under 40 pounds._


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.


You are extrapolating incorrectly and it is EXTREMELY relevant, because no CPS technician (or IIHS for that matter) would ever recommend using a Cosco high back booster, because, frankly, they ARE crappy and they aren't safe.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that studies would show no substantial improvement in safety, when people insist on using these things as 'high backs'.

On the other hand it does NOT cost 200 dollars to get a safe dedicated high back booster. In fact, there is only ONE on the market that costs over that (or anywhere near it) and it's only been available for two months.

One of the best dedicated boosters is the Graco Turbobooster (high back) which is routinely available for less than fifty.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

And an Evenflo Triumph Advance or Graco MyRide ($120) plus a Graco Turbobooster ($45) costs about the same as a "crappy" Dorel 3-in-1 ($170) -- but the first combination will fit properly and keep children well-protected from birth to seatbelt age, while the 3-in-1 definitely will not (does not fit newborns, does not keep kids harnessed to safe booster age/size, does not make a good-fitting booster, does not keep kids boostered until a safe age/size to use a seatbelt).

The techs who post here are parents too, and (AFAIK) not independently wealthy. We understand the challenges of budgeting all too well.

That these are the seats that "the vast majority" uses -- well, that's why we are posting. There are safer alternatives.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **Karen** 
I think this is the key. Is it doing any HARM to have the extra protection for a child not developmentally appropriate? I have no stats, just opinions, but I think that with a properly tethered seat that there is no harm done and no stress to make sure the kid isn't bouncing all over the car.

Personally, the reason I emphasize teaching that boostering (when physically and developmentally appropriate, etc.) is a safe and appropriate choice is because I see quite a few kids stuffed into harnessed seats that they have outgrown -- usually by height -- becuase "harnessing is always safer".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with harnessing a bigger kid in a properly-fitting and top tethered seat. It is a fine choice. But it is not inherently safer than a good high-backed booster. And without question, a properly used booster is SAFER than an outgrown harnessed seat.

I want parents to be not so scared of boosters. They do what they are supposed to and they keep kids safe.


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## *Karen* (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Personally, the reason I emphasize teaching that boostering (when physically and developmentally appropriate, etc.) is a safe and appropriate choice is because I see quite a few kids stuffed into harnessed seats that they have outgrown -- usually by height -- becuase "harnessing is always safer".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with harnessing a bigger kid in a properly-fitting and top tethered seat. It is a fine choice. But it is not inherently safer than a good high-backed booster. And without question, a properly used booster is SAFER than an outgrown harnessed seat.

I want parents to be not so scared of boosters. They do what they are supposed to and they keep kids safe.

Absolutely. I completely agree. In cases where a seat is going to be moved frequently, I always recommend a booster unless the person knows how to get it in right every time in every car. An improperly installed seat is just that, improper.

People only look at weight as a limit. No one seems to understand why I recommend the Nautilus to so many people, they have a hard time wrapping their heads around harness height. All we can do is spread the word and try to help as many people as we can.

And I think the turbo booster fits most kids VERY well and costs $50.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
No matter how 'crappy' you might think they are those ARE the seats that the vast majority of the public uses, so crash test data from real life IS indeed relavant to the vast majority. LOTS of people don't have the money for $200 boosters, so the "crappy" cosco booster or dorel 3 in 1 is whats available to them... I don't think the whole 'well they had crappy seats so what do you expect' is in the least bit relevant.

Wow..that's..a really odd way to misinterpret what I said.

I don't just "think" that they are crappy..they ARE crappy. That's not an opinion. And that is WHY I am a tech, to help get the word out that those seats are NOT good choices for boosters, because otherwise..how are parents to know?

As has already been said, one GREAT booster that is both widely available in almost all major stores, and is very cheap, is the Graco turbobooster.
The one *MY daughter* is riding in I got on sale at Big Lots for $25. Because no, I am NOT independently wealthy. In fact, my children have ridden in literally *THE* cheapest seats on the market. But the important thing is that these seats have been appropriate for the size and age of child, they have been installed correctly, and they have been used correctly.

It is absoutely possible to keep your child SAFE for less money, IF you know what seats to pick, which ones are a good value and will last a long time and do what needs to be done, and aren't overpriced or stupid due to low slots, a poor booster fit, or some other quirk.
That's why I try to help parents rigfht from the beginning, so they don't make a $150 mistake by buying a seat which is a REALLY bad choice.
In fact, I have written a number of informative posts about how exactly you can keep your child the safest, for the longest, using the least amount of money.
I WAS that parent who went to the store, not knowing much, and bought a seat off the shelf. Turned out to be an AWFUL choice, and was outgrown super quickly, and I wasted all that money on a convertible, only to have to buy another one...and another one...because I kept making the wrong choices. Because I did NOT understand about how the top slot height often has more to do with when a seat is outgrown that the stated weight limit. I didn't understand how shell height relates to Rearfacing time. I didn't understand how the FIT of the booster is what matters, and that many boosters on the market do NOT place the vehicle belts correctly, therefore completely negating the entire purpose of the booster in the first place!

But I researched, and learned, and eventually became certified as a tech, and now I try to help other parents. So they DON'T make those same mistakes, so they DON'T waste their money on seats that won't last very long, or that aren't appropriate for their child or vehicle, or that are CRAPPY at what they supposedly do.

chickabiddy said it all more eloquently and concisely than I did..that's one of her many talents.







But despite my lesser conversational skills, I am also passionate and skilled and experienced, and i want children to be as safe as possible. And with education and help, most parents can make better choices, so that more kids are safer.

Trust me..I am NOT out there advocating mythical $200 boosters, I'm trying to let people know when big lots gets them for $25. I *do* understand.


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