# Shaving armpits



## MommyJen314 (Oct 8, 2016)

My SD is 10, 11 next month. Her armpits are quite hairy. Her mom (who just has visitation) says she's too young. SD gets self-conscious about them and wants to shave them, but doesn't want to "disobey" her mom. How young is too young? How could we present this to SD to let her shave without her thinking she's disobeying BM? Thanks for your insight!


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

What's missing is the kinds of conversations she is already hearing about her armpits, from her mom, from you, from her peers. 

It's time for is pulling b.mom into this conversation, all together. What I worry about is that while she might be naturally self-conscious around her peers because she has more hair than they do (assuming, since you said "thick"), the kinds of conversations she is having in her homes is making her more so.


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## Claudia Chapman (Aug 9, 2012)

MommyJen314 said:


> My SD is 10, 11 next month. Her armpits are quite hairy. Her mom (who just has visitation) says she's too young. SD gets self-conscious about them and wants to shave them, but doesn't want to "disobey" her mom. How young is too young? How could we present this to SD to let her shave without her thinking she's disobeying BM? Thanks for your insight!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is no way to make your stepdaughter think otherwise if she is, in fact, going against the wishes of her mother. This child is in a very awkward position and I feel badly for her.

In most parts of the country it's getting cold about now and we're putting away our sleeveless shirts. May I suggest that the issue of shaving can be put on the back burner until spring? Instead of shaving her hair she can be helped with thinning it or trimming it every couple of weeks so it isn't an issue. That strikes me as a reasonable compromise for a 10 year old. And it takes you out of the power struggle.

This is also an honest solution rather than a rationalization. 10 year olds need honest solutions and reasonable compromises.

Is it possible that the real issue here isn't the shaving, but rather the conundrum of what to do when divorced parents disagree? Instead of focusing on the shaving, is it time for you and your husband to work out a big picture strategy? As I see it the most important thing for you to do right now is figure out how to avoid power struggles where the child is in the middle. She needs the security of a clear chain of command instead of being presented with a choice between obeying one parent or the other.

I'm very sympathetic to how difficult this all is for all of you.


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## MommyJen314 (Oct 8, 2016)

Claudia Chapman said:


> There is no way to make your stepdaughter think otherwise if she is, in fact, going against the wishes of her mother. This child is in a very awkward position and I feel badly for her.
> 
> In most parts of the country it's getting cold about now and we're putting away our sleeveless shirts. May I suggest that the issue of shaving can be put on the back burner until spring? Instead of shaving her hair she can be helped with thinning it or trimming it every couple of weeks so it isn't an issue. That strikes me as a reasonable compromise for a 10 year old. And it takes you out of the power struggle.
> 
> ...


Good point. Trimming might be a great option. We didn't stress it mostly because it's getting cold out. We haven't discussed it again with her, but sometimes after gymnastics she mentions she still wants to shave. I agree we are trying not to put the child in the middle of things like this, that's why we didn't say anything more after she spoke with her mom. It is difficult to try and make it clear to her that her Dad is in charge, without making her think she "shouldn't" listen to her mom, in a sense. I would love any thoughts on how to make it clear to the child, in a rationale way, that BD is in charge. I am hoping I get some good ideas from here, that I can try to use when the time comes for the next decision. Next time BM won't be included in the decision making, so that may make it easier.

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## Ambrossimo (Aug 14, 2016)

I think it is ok to shave armpits in any age, when hair appears it can be shaven why not?


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## Claudia Chapman (Aug 9, 2012)

You've said that your fiancée has full legal custody. Has he explained what this means to his daughter recently - that he has been given the right to make the final decisions about her care? This will take pressure off the child because it's very clear who is in charge. It doesn't mean she won't feel the need and desire to listen to her mother, but it will take off some pressure, and that will make her life easier.

Now that the girl is of an age where she can understand this, do you think it might help if your fiancée makes it very clear, by his actions, that he has been granted this authority? One way to do this might be to always be the one who delivers decisions to her. You're clearly a loving presence in her life and a confidante who wants to do what's best for her. I wonder if the best way to preserve and nurture that essential role is for you to step back a little bit and have her father be the one who communicates with the schools, delivers decisions and does the disciplining? At least for a time?


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

This really isn't a matter for parental authority. Kids should have authority over their own bodies, so long as they're not making irreversible, illegal or unduly risky decisions. Shaving armpits is none of those things.

Explain that _neither_ her mom nor her dad, nor anyone else, has the right to tell her what to do with her own body. This is an incredibly important thing to make clear to adolescent girls. Of course she will want to take into consideration the advice and sensibilities of people she cares about, but the decision is hers.

Miranda


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## MommyJen314 (Oct 8, 2016)

Claudia Chapman said:


> You've said that your fiancée has full legal custody. Has he explained what this means to his daughter recently - that he has been given the right to make the final decisions about her care? This will take pressure off the child because it's very clear who is in charge. It doesn't mean she won't feel the need and desire to listen to her mother, but it will take off some pressure, and that will make her life easier.
> 
> Now that the girl is of an age where she can understand this, do you think it might help if your fiancée makes it very clear, by his actions, that he has been granted this authority? One way to do this might be to always be the one who delivers decisions to her. You're clearly a loving presence in her life and a confidante who wants to do what's best for her. I wonder if the best way to preserve and nurture that essential role is for you to step back a little bit and have her father be the one who communicates with the schools, delivers decisions and does the disciplining? At least for a time?


That's a good idea. I wasn't sure if it was right to tell her that. Even though she was involved in the court process this time being that she had to talk to the GAL. It's a great idea to have him explain that he makes the final decisions now, and have him be the one who delivers decisions. I will talk to him about that tonight! Thanks. Today she asked me if she could go buy a light jacket (even though she's got a ton of them!) since she can't shave her armpits  she has gymnastics again this week too I'm wondering if she'll bring it up then too.

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## Claudia Chapman (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm glad my suggestion was helpful. I think it's a good idea for her to know this. It takes her out of "the middle."

I wondered if the opposition from the mom was because she believes (as many women do) that shaving when you're "too young" makes the hair grow in coarser or thicker? I've heard this one many times as the "reason" young girls shouldn't shave. Maybe it will help her to understand what her mom's concern might have been, and take the whole issue out of the realm of "disobedience" and into decision making where it belongs. I agree that she's at an age where it's time to guide her into a more mature understanding of "owning" her own body.


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## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

Can I please make a suggestion, take this young lady to the store, help her choose a razor and some shaving cream, and let her use it. This has been blown out of proportion and is being dragged out far too long. She has expressed discomfort about something that is easily addressed. If she is being teased (bullied) by her peers her life is being made difficult for no good reason. 

And I totally agree with Claudia, dad needs to step up and talk with his daughter and then act as a buffer between her and her mom (who sounds a but toxic). This whole affair is about control. Mom want's it, daughter should have it. Give your soon to be SD the tools she needs to stand up to her mom if you can, or at least the tools to set the foundation so she has the emotional strength to stand up to her mom when she is older. Sounds like she is going to need a lot of support so she can eventually have a healthy relationship with her mom in the future.


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*I was thinking the same thing*

Show her where to buy the products (f she doesn't already know) and give her some money. Somehow I never needed to shave until much later but I do recollect girls whose hair was very dark.. It was my best friend who took me to buy my first bra. My parents wanted me to stay little I'd imagine, and didn't know the norms of the group I was in. Maybe there's some popular book about girl grooming that's out now?


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## SchoolmarmDE (Apr 23, 2012)

Just for the record, I'm going to point out that no one, ever, needs to shave an armpit. It's a hobby to shave things unnecessarily in North America, but it serves no function relating to health.

If anyone here believes that a child can modify themselves in a way that prevents bullying, I say you don't understand bullying. Far more useful to teach children to value themselves as people than to go along with the notion that they can tweeze, paint, or diet themselves into a form that would make them beloved. It can't be done, and young girls, particularly, will actually kill themselves trying.

Something to think about.


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*I agree wholeheartedly*

But did you see the mention that she's in gymnastics? Also, dictating stuff about her body for her body that isn't dangerous or extreme isn't going to help, she'll have to learn for herself. I 'd say things like body piercing, tattoos etc. would warrant an intervention.


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## oldsmom (Jul 8, 2015)

When I was a kid in gymnastics, my mom got me long sleeved leotards for the winter. That may be a happy medium for your SD.

I say this often in these forums, but I am going to say it again... I suggest you husband consider allowing your SD to attend counseling. Based on your previous posts, it sounds like your daughter feels torn about her mom. She's going to have some rough years ahead of her - and so will your husband. A therapist could help her understand the situation, and how to communicate with mom.

I also agree that dad could benefit from explaining his new role.

Last, I would suggest that mom's involvement could be better limited. SD needs to not be talking to mom every day. This is a hard thing to navigate, but the mom is parenting from afar, and that needs to be extracted from your SD's life ASAP. As other posters mentioned, this is a control issue. And biomom doesn't have legal control - but this situation is allowing her to still keep control when the courts already dictated that she shouldn't have it.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

This kind of discussion reminds me of "Neunundneunzig Luftballons", a la Nena, from 33 yrs ago. 





European women do not have this cultural problem, or at least they did not 33 yrs ago. Americans love to export their culture, so maybe things have changed; I have not been to Europe for ten years.

I was in swimming and ballet and I recall this problem vividly. I would also get ingrown hairs from shaving, so even if she shaves the hair away, there can be complications.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

SchoolmarmDE said:


> If anyone here believes that a child can modify themselves in a way that prevents bullying, I say you don't understand bullying.


I don't think that's what anyone was suggesting... did anyone mention bullying? I don't think so. All that was said is that this kid is feeling self-conscious about her body hair and not surprisingly wants to partake of a cultural and social norm.

Miranda


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## craftymcgluestick (Dec 31, 2009)

*Been there!*

I agree wholeheartedly with the perspective of "your body, your choice." Kids, especially young adults, still have so little agency in our culture and I mean...body hair? It grows back.

I do think it's important that you and her dad act as a buffer between your stepdaughter and whatever consequences--emotional or otherwise her birth mother might send her way as a result of whatever choice she and you make.

I was a young girl with very dark, very thick hair on my legs and underarms. I had a mother who was simply silent on these topics and led me to believe puberty was shameful. And I was a fairly nerdy, loner kid who was the object of ridicule by my peers who teased me about my body hair, among other things. Certainly, shaving did not make me suddenly popular, but it was something I could do to make my life a little easier in otherwise hellish middle school (I was about 11 then).

Saying that it won't stop bullying or that hair doesn't need to be shaved is rather unhelpful. If the owner of the hair doesn't want it, for whatever reason, why does it have to be a whole big thing? It is possible (and healthy!) to change one's mind.

I am 36 now. I shave my arm pits... if I feel like it. I am comfortable in my body and know my worth as a person (usually) and my human rights to make choices about my own body. It would have been amazing if I had had the support and confidence as a teenager to make grooming choices free of pressure from my peers, but it's somewhat unrealistic. Having the support of your parents, even if it's "uncool" is such an amazing and precious gift and will serve kids their whole lives in making choices that are true to themselves and sends them a powerful message: I trust you.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

applejuice said:


> This kind of discussion reminds me of "Neunundneunzig Luftballons", a la Nena, from 33 yrs ago.


:joy

I wish: that girls wouldn't feel pressure either to shave or not shave. It's unfortunate that b. mom is making this an issue. Having the choice to shave does alleviate issues of self-consciousness. It's not perfect, but it does. Sometimes we need to "overreact" in response to our feelings of self-consciousness before we feel comfortable being more mellow about it. Either way, we own the power to figure this out ourselves.

My additional concern here is that at s. mom's home, the conversation began because her daughter mentioned feeling self-conscious, and not because s. mom is addressing the issue because she thinks she should shave, adding fuel to the issue. My apologies for suggesting this, in case it offends. I assumed from the OP this was not the case, but at the same time, it wasn't addressed either. If the issue is solely to allow her daughter to resolve her self-consciousness in a way that should be in her power (shaving or not shaving as she feels necessary), then great. If there is any other motivation for addressing the issue, then it could make it worse.


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## Wiseoldman (Jan 22, 2013)

To shave or not to shave, that is the question.... But added to this simple issue is the conflict between divorced parents in what could be a power struggle. So if we look at the issues separately then first issue: shaving armpits. Your teen daughter is maturing faster than the boys her age and possibly some of the girls. She is in gymnastics and her body is seen by everyone in the gym. She is feeling self-conscious and wants to shave. This is a simple issue of aesthetics and body perception, go ahead and shave. Teach her how to properly wash, shave and dry so she avoids cuts or infections - lesson learned for life. Hair grows back, she can continue to shave or not to shave the rest of her life. Her choice. It is very common in gymnastics for most athletes to shave their armpits - including guys. (Not all - but many - not provoking any reactions to the contrary, but I have been a coach since 1971 in both the USA and Europe). In fact many athletes in every sport shave their armpits including swimmers and wrestlers. It can be more hygienic for some, less odor also, but diet has a lot to do with this. Eat onions and garlic- smell like onions an garlic. The second issue about the parents is more complex and I prefer to be the diplomat or mediator - parents need to be positive role models, the decisions must be in the best interest of the child. Get the child's input - it weighs heavily in the final decision. In this case - it is a minor issue, not a life-long tattoo on the neck or face. I always feel compassion for the child and the parents in divorce situations - it rarely is a good experience for everyone involved. If the parents truly love the child then they will try to see the issue from the child's perspective, but many adults have forgotten how to do this. In the end - it is really a personal choice dealing with body perception and aesthetics. Finally - a quick word about hair growing back "courser." This is not true as the hair will grow back exactly the way it was, but it feels courser when it is short...it feels unusual and most people will say it "tickles." Best wishes to all of you - now show me a good handstand!:smile:


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## MissAnthrope (Jan 31, 2011)

I want to share my story, too.

When I was about 10, and on the swim team, some other girls made fun of me in the shower for not shaving my legs and underarms (I'm métis, so I have very dark hair). I told my parents on the car ride home that I wanted to start shaving them, and my parents proceeded to have a full conversation, weighing pros and cons, between them, right in front of me. As if I wasn't there and had no say in the decision. Without ever asking me WHY I wanted to do this.

And then they decided, unilaterally, that I was "too young" to shave my legs, but my mother said that I SHOULD shave my armpits because the hair there was "unattractive."

It was horrifying, at the time because it was embarrassing and it was MY BODY and MY LIFE and didn't they understand that the other girls made fun of me?! But also, in retrospect, it really damaged me. 

The memory of my mother saying that my armpits needed modification to be acceptable still stings me to this day, even though I stopped all recreational hair removal almost seven years ago and I'm pretty proud of how my body looks. Not to mention, she told me that I should shape my behavior around what other people found attractive!

Here's what I wish they had said:

1. It's your body to groom and modify as you wish.
2. You don't have to adhere to anyone's idea of attractiveness, not even your own, because being attractive is not a tax you pay for occupying the social space marked "female." You don't owe people attractiveness, and you are more than how you look.
3. We think you are beautiful just the way you are, because you are our baby and beauty follows love, not the other way around.
4. Anyone who tries to shame you into conforming your appearance to their expectations is being abusive and should be avoided.
5. Not everyone chooses to remove their body hair in this way, and there are risks and irritations associated with the process, but lots of people do, and it's quite safe, and if it's what you really want to do we will support you.

Good luck with your SD, OP. Obviously having to deal with a blended family/co-parenting only makes this more awkward.


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*so...*

You are blaming your mom for conveying societal "norms"?

I think the point is, this girl should be allowed to make her own choice for her own body, the mom can express her feelings about it, but in the end it's her body, her life. She will grow and learn and eventually form her own opinions on the matter (as you did).

I had a mom who gave me misinformation that bathing prolonged your period, you can imagine the results that had.

Does it suck that we still have sexism, misogyny, workplace discrimination, income disparity et al.? well yeah.

Will parents screw up their kids? Inevitably.

And I wanted to add that, turning your kid into a pet project for your personal issues isn't kind or respectful either.


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## SchoolmarmDE (Apr 23, 2012)

MissAnthrope said:


> I want to share my story, too.
> 
> When I was about 10, and on the swim team, some other girls made fun of me in the shower for not shaving my legs and underarms (I'm métis, so I have very dark hair). I told my parents on the car ride home that I wanted to start shaving them, and my parents proceeded to have a full conversation, weighing pros and cons, between them, right in front of me. As if I wasn't there and had no say in the decision. Without ever asking me WHY I wanted to do this.
> 
> ...


Yes, and if the message is sent that we have the choice to follow societal norms or not, that's the message that's important.

During the toddler nakey phase, I always had to explain WHY we were putting on the clothes to go to the store. Well, it's because that's what our society does.

I haven't shaved any body hair since the 70's...employed as an actress and as a figure model, so yes, people saw my armpits. Well, pubes once...that was awful. Anyway, it's certainly possible to just go through life like that, even in America.

My son, as a competitive swimmer, shaved in middle school, decided it was stupid, and left it alone. My elder daughter shaves areas that are publically visible...we'll see where she is in 10 years. So I don't think the act of shaving or not shaving is intrinsically important. But I think the way adults approach it is terribly important.

Oh, you poor dear. You're embarrassed by armpit hair, of course you should shave. Evil mother doesn't call the shots anymore. ---I think that would be horrible.

Oh, you poor dear. You're embarrassed by armpit hair, the other kids are smooth. You should try to match them..--- I think that would be horrible.

Kids don't deal with armpit hair. They deal with puberty, in all its stinky, awkward, spotty, messy, glory. We live in a culture where becoming a young woman, particularly, is problematic. Getting secondary sexual characteristics is difficult, and being in an environment where your body is daily scrutinized makes it tougher. I think it's extremely important that parents and significant adults communicate that a child's body is a wonderful tool for them to use, to smell roses, sing songs, and jump for joy (or the equivalent, as ones abilities permit). It's not a signpost or a bargaining chip.

That's what concerns me, in some of this thread. Let's make sure our daughters and sons know that no one who judges their appearance gains title.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

mumto1 said:


> You are blaming your mom for conveying societal "norms"?


I don't think she was doing that. She was blaming her mom for the _manner_ in which she conveyed those norms: by describing an aspect of her natural appearance as unattractive, and by discussing the embarrassing issue of what decisions she should make about her body with her father in her presence but without including her in the conversation or asking her how she felt about any of it. It sounds hurtful, dehumanizing and mortifying. A far cry from explaining "Most women shave their armpits, especially if they have dark hair," which is what 'conveying societal norms' would be.

Miranda


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

But she did say that she brought it up to her parents herself, and that is was in fact herself not her parents that started this conversation. It's hard to make a judgement on this , for me at least. Another viewpoint would be that her mom listened to what she was saying but took in it in a direction (perhaps misguidedly, it's true) that did not help her daughter. Think about the generation that her mom may have come from or from the peers she'd grown up with. I can tell you that my mom was obsessed what others thought about us and it was crippling, but perhaps more understandable (and forgivable) if that was her own experience growing up. She once threw out my shoes because they had holes in them, I don't know if she was even thinking I didn't have another pair but that in her world view, only hobos/disreputable people had holey shoes. And we damn sure weren't hobos LOL. She probably thought she was protecting me.


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## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

I think it's a big leap from saying "I was hurt by something my parents did" to saying "there is no excuse for what they did." She only said the former. My parents did and said a bunch of things that hurt me when I was a teen. I understand why they did what they did; they definitely had the best of intentions and were the product of their generation and of their temperaments. It's fine; I forgive them for those hurts they caused. That doesn't stop me from trying to learn from my adolescent experiences I had and do things differently with my kids. 

Miranda


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

She says "it really damaged me" I guess I read it very differently, that that moment determined she was to have a poor image of herself.


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## MommyJen314 (Oct 8, 2016)

You guys have been tremendously helpful. I truly appreciate all of the insight and feedback. She hasn't brought it back up to me yet. But when she does I'll have many things for her Dad to bring to her attention. It is a great point to tell her that the choice is hers, no one else's, and she should always be comfortable in her skin...no matter what that means to her. 


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## linda233 (Oct 17, 2016)

MommyJen314 said:


> You guys have been tremendously helpful. I truly appreciate all of the insight and feedback. She hasn't brought it back up to me yet. But when she does I'll have many things for her Dad to bring to her attention. It is a great point to tell her that the choice is hers, no one else's, and she should always be comfortable in her skin...no matter what that means to her.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly the point. You can ask her casually if the hair is bothering her, and tell her to inform you or her father when she thinks she needs to shave. She is only 10, she shouldn't be worrying about the adult beauty concepts at this age.


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