# If you must get baby somewhere and don't have a car seat?



## amberskyfire

It's been a while since this happened, but I'm expecting to have another child and would like to be prepared.

I had a horrible incident a couple of years ago when traveling alone with my 12 month old. We were returning home to Hawaii from Texas and missed our last flight. The airport closed (airports in Hawaii close at 10pm and you can't stay) and kicked me out and I had nowhere to go and nowhere to stay. There were no chairs and no more flights leaving until the next morning.

I didn't know what to do and all the money I had in the world was $200 in my pocket, so I asked the desk clerk what the cheapest hotel on the island was. She gave me the number to a place that was just in my price range for a single night's stay. I called the hotel and they said they would pick me up in their free shuttle.

The "shuttle" turned out to actually be just a guy driving a Scion. I had to get in holding my baby with no car seat and I was so scared, especially considering the guy drove like we were late for something. I didn't know what else to do, so I sat in the back, belted myself in tightly, put my baby on my chest in a wrap and held her tightly (which I know is stupid because it does nothing, but I was scared.)

In that kind of situations, what do you do? Just grit your teeth and hope you come out the other side okay? I didn't know what else to do and I had to get somewhere. Everything was closed. Is there a safer way to hold or wrap baby in this situation? How do you handle emergency car rides?


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## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire*
> 
> It's been a while since this happened, but I'm expecting to have another child and would like to be prepared.
> 
> I had a horrible incident a couple of years ago when traveling alone with my 12 month old. We were returning home to Hawaii from Texas and missed our last flight. The airport closed (airports in Hawaii close at 10pm and you can't stay) and kicked me out and I had nowhere to go and nowhere to stay. There were no chairs and no more flights leaving until the next morning.
> 
> I didn't know what to do and all the money I had in the world was $200 in my pocket, so I asked the desk clerk what the cheapest hotel on the island was. She gave me the number to a place that was just in my price range for a single night's stay. I called the hotel and they said they would pick me up in their free shuttle.
> 
> The "shuttle" turned out to actually be just a guy driving a Scion. I had to get in holding my baby with no car seat and I was so scared, especially considering the guy drove like we were late for something. I didn't know what else to do, so I sat in the back, belted myself in tightly, put my baby on my chest in a wrap and held her tightly (which I know is stupid because it does nothing, but I was scared.)
> 
> *In that kind of situations, what do you do? Just grit your teeth and hope you come out the other side okay? I didn't know what else to do and I had to get somewhere.* Everything was closed. Is there a safer way to hold or wrap baby in this situation? How do you handle emergency car rides?


I would do exactly as you did. You are taking a risk, to be sure, but you are also taking a risk to stay outside an airport overnight.


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## Juvysen

I would have done the same, but asked the guy to drive extra carefully because of the baby not being restrained... though I realize that would be so hit or miss as helpful...


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## chickabiddy

I generally advise against renting carseats from car rental agencies, but in that situation, I would have tried to rent a seat for the night.


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## amberskyfire

Oh, that is a good idea! I don't think they have any car rental places at the airport on Maui, but next time, I'll look. Even so, they were probably closed, but I'll file it away if we have to travel again.


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## lach

Sometimes life is about making the less bad choice. I would have made the same choice you did: it sounds like your other choice would have been to sit outside a closed airport all night.

It sounds like a scary situation, and I'm glad everything worked out. *hugs*


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## leighi123

I'd sleep outside the airport before I'd transport my child without a carseat.


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## butterflylover

I would have done the same thing in your shoes. I'd feel safer going without the car seat and getting into a hotel than sleeping outside at a deserted airport at night. The world is a scary place and I think you made the right choice.


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## amberskyfire

There would have been no sleeping outside the airport in any case. There was only concrete and we didn't have anything at all - not even our luggage. I had no diapers, no bathroom, no wipes for the baby - NOTHING.


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## Tofu the Geek

For an adult or child, when no seat belt is available, the safest place would be to sit on the floor between the back seat and front seat. Sitting sideways with legs pulled up in front. I am not sure if that would also apply to an infant.


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## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> I'd sleep outside the airport before I'd transport my child without a carseat.


really? I wonder if you would have been picked up for vagrancy - and transported by police car without a carseat?


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## Drummer's Wife

Sleeping on the concrete outside of an airport with an infant seems more risky than a ride in a vehicle w/o a car seat. Especially in many major cities.


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## DahliaRW

ITA that I would have done the same thing in that situation. Sometimes there is no "safe" solution and you have to take calculated risks. Some cab companies will provide car seats on request (who knows what shape they'd be in, but better than nothing maybe?). So if you ever find yourself in that situation again, my rec woudl be to request one. And worse case you are no worse off then you were in the prior situation.


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## bobandjess99

Well. In that particular situation, I probably would have done what you did. But, I would like to point out that I wouldn't have been in that situation, because I would have followed the recommendations, and my child would have been *IN* a carseat on the plane, therefore i would have had the carseat WITH ME. While some airlines do permit you to bring "lap babies" on for free, it is not safe, and not a choice i would make. The AAP does not support it, and even the FAA calls it dangerous, but doesn't eliminate it so as to not lose the money from families who would then just not fly if they had to pay for seats for babies. So the parameters of your example don't apply to me, really. In a true "ZOMG ZOMBIE ATTACK!" scenario, where I was literally fleeing from a natural disaster, wildfire, etc, then yes, I might make the decision to transport kids without proper safety restraints, or in a situation where i ended up somehow without a proper seat and simply Could. Not. Get. One. Luckily it's a moot point, since you are safe and sound


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## amberskyfire

I understand where you are coming from, but in some situations, it's just not possible. We are too poor to fly and family purchased tickets for us to come visit. Tickets are over $1000 each, so it would have cost us that much extra just for the plane ticket for my daughter. Add to that there wasn't any possible way I could have carried her and her car seat and all of our luggage all by myself. Plus, when I looked up safety stats, almost no one survives plane crashes. They are extremely rare and when they do happen, there are almost never survivors (they are pretty horrific) so the likelihood of the car seat saving her would be low. Still, I agree, they are safer if you can in any way get one or afford one.


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## an_aurora

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire*
> 
> Add to that there wasn't any possible way I could have carried her and her car seat and all of our luggage all by myself.


I just wanted to add that I recently flew by myself with my three kids, on four flights, and took two car seats. It's totally doable!


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## amberskyfire

How did you do it?! I'll probably be flying back with her some time soon and I'll need the car seat then, but I haven't figured out how to work it. How did you get the car seats onto the plane and wrangle the kids as well? All I remember is running through the airport with a baby on the front and a huge backpack on my back and it nearly killed me.


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## kindchen

I have flown by myself with two kids on one (very long) flight with two car seats. Never, EVER, again will I do that. It was a total nightmare. I feel like mothers on this board gloss over how ridiculously difficult it is to lug car seats through an airport while trying to keep young kids close. I was a basketcase, and I am normally a very calm, I-can-do-anything kind of person. It might be "doable" as in "technically possible" but I do NOT recommend it. I would rather stay home (and I really like to travel!).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> I just wanted to add that I recently flew by myself with my three kids, on four flights, and took two car seats. It's totally doable!


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## lach

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kindchen*
> 
> I have flown by myself with two kids on one (very long) flight with two car seats. Never, EVER, again will I do that. It was a total nightmare. I feel like mothers on this board gloss over how ridiculously difficult it is to lug car seats through an airport while trying to keep young kids close. I was a basketcase, and I am normally a very calm, I-can-do-anything kind of person. It might be "doable" as in "technically possible" but I do NOT recommend it. I would rather stay home (and I really like to travel!).


LOL, yeah. I flew by myself with 2 kids and 1 carseat and they were easily 2 of the worst days of my life. NEVER again... at least until my kids get much older.


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## Ekatherina

well...in Lebanon riding a car with the baby on your lap with no car seat is a normal matter.







....i used to sit with ds as well as dd on the front seat, have them on my lap and nurse them as well. (one of them not both of course







). In Lebanon many things are normal like riding with the baby on the motorcycle....etc....It's a crazy country with crazy people....


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## chickabiddy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire* Plus, when I looked up safety stats, almost no one survives plane crashes. They are extremely rare and when they do happen, there are almost never survivors (they are pretty horrific) so the likelihood of the car seat saving her would be low.


You're right that a carseat may not help if the plane falls from the sky. Carseats help keep babies from hitting the ceiling during turbulence, and can help in a runway crash.


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## Tilia

OP, that has happened to me too. We missed our last flight because the earlier one was delayed. It was somewhere around midnight when I called the hotel shuttle. It was actually a shuttle bus, but I was still scared. No seatbelts, hard plastic seats. It was in a major city, but I can't remember which one. We made it fine to the hotel, got some rest, and took the shuttle back to the airport in the morning. I think DD was 14 months or something. It was awful.


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## Caneel

This podcast is hosted by a flight attendant/mother of a 4 yo. She has some excellent information on lap vs. seat, why you may not be able to have you baby in a wrap during take off and landing, what happens during turbulance, aborted take offs, giving yourself enough time to board, etc. (FWIW, she does not use a carseat on a plane, she checks her daughter's seat and uses a CARES harness.)

Episode 49 is about travelling with kids, Episode 4 talks about turbulances and in general, she throw in kid-related travel stuff in most episodes.

We travel a lot by plane and I have gotten so much information from this podcast.


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## leighi123

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife*
> 
> Sleeping on the concrete outside of an airport with an infant seems more risky than a ride in a vehicle w/o a car seat. Especially in many major cities.


How many people per year die from spending one night out front of an airport, vs in car accidents per year?

I probably wouldn't actually sleep anyways, just sit around until something within walking distance opened.

When I travel though, I don't check baggage or the carseat, so when I arrive, I have everything I need right there, all as carry-on's. So this situation would never come up for me personally anyway.

Its very dangerous to check carseats as baggage for this reason, and because they damage a lot of things (both are why I won't check anything in!), so if OP had her child in the carseat on the plane (safer for the baby and for the carseat), she would have had the carseat and this wouldn't be an issue. At the very least, gate check the seat so you get it when you arrive even if there is a delay or something.

Also, if I had a situation where a "shuttle" was going to pick up me and ds, I would have asked in advance what the vehicle was. I let ds ride on a full size bus without a carseat in Mexico, but I wouldn't let him ride in a cab on the way back, we called around to find a bus.

So to avoid this in the future - keep your carseat with you on flights preferably installed and used on the plane, but if not, gate checked in a cardboard box to protect it (NOT checked as baggage), bring extra diapers/change of clothes/credit card for emergancies, double check flight times and transfer times so you don't miss flights - also schedual flights so you are not flying the last flight of the day, so if you miss, you can get on the next plane the same day and not get stuck.


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## Anna Phor

I'd call around a couple cab companies and see if anyone had a carseat, but if I couldn't find one, I'd do exactly what you did. Put the baby in the wrap and belt myself in. And ask the driver to drive carefully.

If I really, really, really didn't want to go without a carseat, and I was at HNL and it was late at night, I'd take the bus if it was still running.


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## BubblingBrooks

You can now purchase little luggage carts for car seats to clip to. Wheels and handle make it much easier. It can also be clipped to your suitcase to be pulled by it as well.


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## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> How many people per year die from spending one night out front of an airport, vs in car accidents per year?
> 
> I probably wouldn't actually sleep anyways, just sit around until something within walking distance opened.
> 
> When I travel though, I don't check baggage or the carseat, so when I arrive, I have everything I need right there, all as carry-on's. So this situation would never come up for me personally anyway.
> 
> Its very dangerous to check carseats as baggage for this reason, and because they damage a lot of things (both are why I won't check anything in!), so if OP had her child in the carseat on the plane (safer for the baby and for the carseat), she would have had the carseat and this wouldn't be an issue. At the very least, gate check the seat so you get it when you arrive even if there is a delay or something.
> 
> Also, if I had a situation where a "shuttle" was going to pick up me and ds, I would have asked in advance what the vehicle was. I let ds ride on a full size bus without a carseat in Mexico, but I wouldn't let him ride in a cab on the way back, we called around to find a bus.
> 
> So to avoid this in the future - keep your carseat with you on flights preferably installed and used on the plane, but if not, gate checked in a cardboard box to protect it (NOT checked as baggage), bring extra diapers/change of clothes/credit card for emergancies, double check flight times and transfer times so you don't miss flights - also schedual flights so you are not flying the last flight of the day, so if you miss, you can get on the next plane the same day and not get stuck.


I think the point of the post is what can one do if they need to transport a baby by car, without a carseat? I am sure there really are actually times when that happens, and even the most prepared parent might not have a car seat. What if the airport was evacuated for some reason, and she couldn't get her carseat back? sometimes even the best intentions fall short. I think it's condescending to act as if you could prevent yourself from EVER being without a needed carseat. Can you try your darndest? Sure. But even then, your best laid plans can go awry.


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## swede

sorry to be a serial poster, but I am just blown away by the insinuation that the op should have stood outside all night long with her baby. WHy would someone suggest that??!


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## TheGirls

I think you did the best you could, given the situation. I think the idea of spending the night on the concrete is absurd.

For your future flight - I've flown many times with my now-3yo and a folding luggage cart makes a huge difference. I strap her carseat to the cart, and put either my carryon bag in it, or put the toddler in it like a stroller. You can get carts for $10 at walmart. That way I can pull the cart and hold DD's hand, or wear DD and pull the cart, or wear the backpack and put DD in the cart...

I've flown once with two infants (3mo) and a 2.5yo, and two adults. One carseat (the infants were lap babies and we had carseats available at our destination). It was really not bad at all, except security.

Next time we go DD will be 4, and I think we will get a ride-safer travel vest for her and let her use the lap belt on the plane.


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## ecoteat

I had to ride in a car with dd when she was a baby with no carseat once. The circumstances were just one traveling disaster after another and we were left stranded with no better options. I did basically the same thing you did--I sat in the back with dd in the Ergo on my chest. I was a nervous wreck the whole ride and I am glad I will never have to do that again!

I agree that sleeping outside the airport would be far less preferable than one scary car ride.


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## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bobandjess99*
> 
> Well. In that particular situation, I probably would have done what you did. But, I would like to point out that I wouldn't have been in that situation, because I would have followed the recommendations, and my child would have been *IN* a carseat on the plane, therefore i would have had the carseat WITH ME. While some airlines do permit you to bring "lap babies" on for free, it is not safe, and not a choice i would make. The AAP does not support it, and even the FAA calls it dangerous, but doesn't eliminate it so as to not lose the money from families who would then just not fly if they had to pay for seats for babies. So the parameters of your example don't apply to me, really. In a true "ZOMG ZOMBIE ATTACK!" scenario, where I was literally fleeing from a natural disaster, wildfire, etc, then yes, I might make the decision to transport kids without proper safety restraints, or in a situation where i ended up somehow without a proper seat and simply Could. Not. Get. One. Luckily it's a moot point, since you are safe and sound


Some international carriers don't allow carseats. I hope you never have to travel overseas


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## new2this

In your situation hands down I would have done what you did. No other options you do the best of the choices you are faced with and take the one that is the lessor of both evils in a sense. I would not sit outside with a child over night anywhere with a child so I would take the risk of a car accident.


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## amberskyfire

What DO you do if you have to travel overseas? Will they allow the safety vests?


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## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire*
> 
> What DO you do if you have to travel overseas? Will they allow the safety vests?


I don't know - I don't love my kids enough to bring a carseat everywhere


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## cyclamen

I also agree that the OP probably made the best decision she could have in situation. I have done the stay awake all night in a strange location / ride public transit for hours in order to have a place to be type thing...the latter with a newborn - because I didn't have the money to do something else. But what is the bus system in Hawaii like? Because that would be a great option, at least assuming it was running and could get you to your hotel (which is dicey in the middle of the night in non-major-cities). I always feel safe on the bus. I think it's safer than riding in a car.


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## Viola

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> sorry to be a serial poster, but I am just blown away by the insinuation that the op should have stood outside all night long with her baby. WHy would someone suggest that??!


I think because not using a carseat seems unthinkable to some people because it's such a part of the way we do things. I remember one time my older daughter was 3 or 4 and somehow I had neglected to fasten her harness. She told me that it wasn't done with shock in her voice, so I pulled over and fastened it. A little while later she asked me quietly, "you forgot to buckle me in, why aren't I dead?" She really felt like if you didn't ride in a carseat, you would die, and I think that's kind of how we see it now. I don't think we realize just how many children do ride in cars every day with no carseats. I mean on the crowded streets of Shanghai you can see entire families riding on motorbikes, no helmets, weaving in and out of traffic, and that traffic is crazy. Not using a carseat for one ride doesn't seem like a big deal to me, especially given the alternative, but I'm older and we actually didn't use carseats when I was a kid, and we didn't even wear our seatbelts most of the time. We were allowed to stand up holding onto the back of the seat, and sometimes we got to ride in the back of pickup trucks, although I admit my mom hated to let us do that.

We don't know what the risk is of sitting outside an aiport with a 15 month old is because there probably are no records of this happening. But there are definite risks to that too.


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## Eclipsepearl

Please don't use the "They don't use car seats in other countries..." argument. It's true they don't use car seats but they lose more children in accidents. I live in one of those countries. That's a fact. Everyone's sad and everyone feels sorry for the parents but they continue to not use car seats and that's that.

Also, don't say "we didn't have car seats and we survived". This is true for us but remember the babies who didn't survive aren't here to share their stories. Hospitals now have trouble supplying organs for children who need them because they no longer have the large number of highway fatalities they used to, thanks to car seats.

Plus, when I looked up safety stats, almost no one survives plane crashes. They are extremely rare and when they do happen, there are almost never survivors (they are pretty horrific) so the likelihood of the car seat saving her would be low.

Where did you "look up" these safety stats? I'm a former Flight Attendant and we were told the complete opposite; MORE PEOPLE SURVIVE PLANE ACCIDENTS THAN DIE in them. The idea that "We're all going to die" is not only a myth but it could also mean that YOU don't survive an accident. Many die because they panic or don't make an effort to get out. This is what the airlines do NOT want you to know. They hide this fact from the public because they don't want to make it worse for the surviving relatives. If your loved one ran the wrong way or didn't get out of his seat, that would be difficult to even know and even worse if it were shared with the press!!

Trust me, having a car seat on the plane can and has made a difference in many accidents. This is NOT a valid reason for not using a car seat on board. Be honest and say you don't want to buy a ticket for your baby because accidents ARE rare and you want to save money. You're placing your bets on the fact you wont have an accident, and chances are very much in your favor. But don't use a flimsy excuse about surviving crashes or the fact your baby "likes to be held", or whatever.

I was once stuck on a shuttle and I put my baby on the floor. He was a bit bigger. I would have used a baby carrier IF there was a shoulder belt and made sure the shoulder belt did NOT go over any part of the baby.

For the record, I travel alone internationally with three children and brought a car seat for many years. It's totally do-able if you're organized but you need to be organized!!! I put my car seat on a metal luggage cart (don't buy a Gogo Travelmate, it's basically an overpriced, plastic luggage cart when you can buy a metal one for less that does the same thing). Having a good baby carrier is a must. A lot of the moms here breastfeed and already babywear so that make travel easier.

For the record, about foreign airlines, I have had my seats taken away from me. One airline I flew didn't allow car seats at all (RyanAir, a low-cost Irish company). I arranged a car seat at our destination in England. I avoid flying our national company, which has been dodgy with car seats and try to fly either a U.S. company or Lufthansa, who are good about accepting foreign car seats (I drive with American car seats here for safety reasons, the ones sold here are not good, especially for rfing and ehing).


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## amberskyfire

I'm sorry, you are correct. I should have used better search terms. I looked up info using "fatal plane accidents" instead of what got me your results which was "survive plane accidents." I came up with lots of info including some like this which show that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html which is not at ALL what I have always been told.







Now I wish I hadn't looked that up at all.

As well as the info from this website which seems to show a low survival rate (yellow chart) for plane crashes, but I misunderstood as the chart is titled "FATAL plane accidents" - as in, they are not all fatal accidents. I am terrified to fly and my brain sees this kind of stuff and tends to freak out.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> Where did you "look up" these safety stats? I'm a former Flight Attendant and we were told the complete opposite; MORE PEOPLE SURVIVE PLANE ACCIDENTS THAN DIE in them. The idea that "We're all going to die" is not only a myth but it could also mean that YOU don't survive an accident. Many die because they panic or don't make an effort to get out. This is what the airlines do NOT want you to know. They hide this fact from the public because they don't want to make it worse for the surviving relatives. If your loved one ran the wrong way or didn't get out of his seat, that would be difficult to even know and even worse if it were shared with the press!!


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## jeminijad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> I'd sleep outside the airport before I'd transport my child without a carseat.


That is an interesting risk assessment... subjecting a tiny infant to the elements, possible arrest, assault for 8+ hours, rather than a car ride that is overwhelmingly likely to end successfully?


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## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeminijad*
> 
> That is an interesting risk assessment... subjecting a tiny infant to the elements, possible arrest, assault for 8+ hours, rather than a car ride that is overwhelmingly likely to end successfully?


You said it way better than I've been trying to


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## kindchen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire*
> 
> I'm sorry, you are correct. I should have used better search terms. I looked up info using "fatal plane accidents" instead of what got me your results which was "survive plane accidents." I came up with lots of info including some like this which show that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html which is not at ALL what I have always been told.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I wish I hadn't looked that up at all.
> 
> As well as the info from this website which seems to show a low survival rate (yellow chart) for plane crashes, but I misunderstood as the chart is titled "FATAL plane accidents" - as in, they are not all fatal accidents. I am terrified to fly and my brain sees this kind of stuff and tends to freak out.


That link in no way shows that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents. The point of that article is that statistics about risk are complicated, and people who fly all the time have a higher risk of dying in a crash than those who fly rarely. That's common sense, right? The article also points out that our decision-making is not often about risk, but about perceived danger, which has nothing to do with statistics.

Your terror about flying doesn't have anything to do with the statistics or the actual danger involved in flying. I don't love flying either, and it has nothing to do with statistics. BUT knowing that it is relatively safe does help me calm down. Strangely, working for an airline and seeing all the crazy things that happen all the time that do NOT cause crashes made me feel safer.


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## DahliaRW

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> How many people per year die from spending one night out front of an airport, vs in car accidents per year?


That is so apples to oranges. And, fwiw, lots of homeless people die of exposure while sleeping on the streets. But to get a good analysis, you'd have to look at proportion, no numbers, because WAY more people drive than sleep outsideon the concrete!

Regardless, this is a risk assessment in ONE situation and you can't really take into account overall statistics. In that ONE location, was it safer to be outside all night with a baby, with a mom tired from traveling who probably would be physically unable to stay awake even if she wanted to, etc, to a one time cab ride to a hotel. Is either without risk, definitely not. But, it's an evaluation of which is riskier in that ONE SPECIFIC situation.


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## amberskyfire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kindchen*
> 
> That link in no way shows that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents. The point of that article is that statistics about risk are complicated, and people who fly all the time have a higher risk of dying in a crash than those who fly rarely. That's common sense, right? The article also points out that our decision-making is not often about risk, but about perceived danger, which has nothing to do with statistics.
> 
> Your terror about flying doesn't have anything to do with the statistics or the actual danger involved in flying. I don't love flying either, and it has nothing to do with statistics. BUT knowing that it is relatively safe does help me calm down. Strangely, working for an airline and seeing all the crazy things that happen all the time that do NOT cause crashes made me feel safer.


The link shows a chart that reads that 1.3 people die in auto accidents per 100 million miles traveled as opposed to 1.9 people in airline accidents per 100 million miles traveled. Maybe I'm reading it wrong somehow. I'm kind of tired. Does "risk of exposure" only mean per person, not the population as a whole?


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## Eclipsepearl

Well put!

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire*
> 
> I'm sorry, you are correct. I should have used better search terms. I looked up info using "fatal plane accidents" instead of what got me your results which was "survive plane accidents." I came up with lots of info including some like this which show that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html which is not at ALL what I have always been told.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I wish I hadn't looked that up at all.
> 
> As well as the info from this website which seems to show a low survival rate (yellow chart) for plane crashes, but I misunderstood as the chart is titled "FATAL plane accidents" - as in, they are not all fatal accidents. I am terrified to fly and my brain sees this kind of stuff and tends to freak out.


The link just sends me to a sign-up page.

There are non-survivable air crashes where a seat wouldn't have made a difference either way. The point is that IF (and it's very unlikely) you beat the statistics and there is something going wrong, you have to think "I'm getting my kids and myself OUT of this plane however I have to!" You're not going to grab your bags, you're not going to be sidetracked by those who are grabbing their bags, panicking and/or giving out the wrong instructions...

Also, hopefully those reading will take note of where their nearest, and next nearest, exits are next time they fly. They'll then vastly increased their chances of survival with just a quick glance around...

Risk assessment is a delicate science. You have to choose based on the information and options you have and it's often not clear-cut.


----------



## mrsbernstein

Personally, I would have done at the OP did.

A car ride each way...in the grand scope of life...I just don't see as that big of a deal. Considering all this child will see in it's long life...TWO car-rides with mom strapped in the back of a cab IN a wrap...

I personally think escalators may be a bit more dangerous!

Mr sB


----------



## ameliabedelia

OP, I would have totally did what you did. It's not ideal, but sometimes you have to do what you need to do.

Staying outside a deserted airport at night alone seems riskier (mugging, etc.)


----------



## hippiemombian

I have had to ride with my kids without a car seat 3 times actually. DD1 had a traumatic accident when she was 3 weeks old and my first reaction was to get her in the car to the hospital asap. We were visiting my parents in Alabama out site-seeing the country and we were stranded with no car and no cell service. My first reaction was to run to the nearest person I could find and ask for a ride to the hospital because for all I knew my 3 week old was dying. I put her on my lap trying to keep her from falling asleep and the thought never crossed my mind about getting in an accident. I was concerned on keeping her awake and conscious. Then with DD2 two separate accidents happened to where I needed to rush her to the hospital again both times I was concerned with making sure I got to the hospital as quickly as possible. I know that I could have gotten in to an accident and something bad could have happened, but blood was gushing out of dd2's head and all of her hair and clothes and my clothes were soaked in blood, suppressing the bleeding and comforting my terrified child was what I was thinking about.

I would never sit outside an airport from 10pm until they opened again. Especially with no bathroom, diapers etc. At least at a hotel you could wash your babe in the sink or use wash cloths as make shift diapers. There's no protection from the elements, animals, bugs, other people. The baby would have to sleep in your arms all night because there's no place to lay them down. I totally would have done what you did. Sometimes you just don't have control over your circumstances. Obviously I don't think you missed your plane on purpose to intentionally ride in a car with your baby. Some people need to realize that even when you have a plan things don't always work out that way.


----------



## brennan

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> Some international carriers don't allow carseats. I hope you never have to travel overseas


When I travelled to Maui when dd was 9 months old I was not allowed to bring my Canadian car seat on a Canadian airline because it actually needed the American sticker. I have never had a problem using it within Canada, it was just flying to and from the US where I was not allowed to use it. And I'm not about to find and purchase an American car seat to use for the once every 2 years if we're really really lucky situation.

OP, I would have done exactly what you did. As an FYI there very limited buses on Maui and there are car rental places in the airport, but they are a hike. The car rental places do have car seats, but they might not have been open.


----------



## amberskyfire

Quote:


> The link just sends me to a sign-up page.


Me, too. When you go to the page, punch in the keywords in the search bar and it pulls it up or you can Google "NOVA how risky is flying" and it should be the first link.


----------



## Silverbird

I was thinking about this too. I don't drive so there is a possibility that I might get stuck one day with my train running late meaning I miss the last bus home. In my town I know of a taxi company that has car seats and I could look one up for other towns. But for example if I was mislead or the seat wasn't avalible that day I could end up in this situation as under UK law a baby can be carried unrestrained in a taxi. I think using a wrap would be safer than holding the baby in my arms so they wouldn't necessary be flung forward in a stop. Anyone else have thoughts on how to minimise the risk for thoes of us who wouldn't sit outside all night?


----------



## DahliaRW

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Silverbird*
> 
> I was thinking about this too. I don't drive so there is a possibility that I might get stuck one day with my train running late meaning I miss the last bus home. In my town I know of a taxi company that has car seats and I could look one up for other towns. But for example if I was mislead or the seat wasn't avalible that day I could end up in this situation as under UK law a baby can be carried unrestrained in a taxi. I think using a wrap would be safer than holding the baby in my arms so they wouldn't necessary be flung forward in a stop. Anyone else have thoughts on how to minimise the risk for thoes of us who wouldn't sit outside all night?


I think it's more dangerous to have the baby on you like that. If you go forward in an accident your baby could hit the back of the seat in front of you and be smooshed by your body. I would think laying baby on the floor would technically be the safest.


----------



## leighi123

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jeminijad*
> 
> That is an interesting risk assessment... subjecting a tiny infant to the elements, possible arrest, assault for 8+ hours, rather than a car ride that is overwhelmingly likely to end successfully?


It was in Hawaii, not Canada in the middle of winter. Its also illegal to transport a child without a carseat. Even when closed, airports have very high security, so a pretty safe place to be outside. Car accidents are the #1 cause of accidental deaths in children under 12, staying outside with mom for 8 hours in a baby carrier is not even on the list. By the way, I have spent the night outside, alone with my ds when he was a baby, nothing but me, him, and a baby carrier. No, it was not fun and it was tiring, but I didn't feel unsafe, and ds was perfectly happy to nurse or sleep cuddled up next to me. And this was in a place that was pretty cold out at night. Different situation as to why I was outside, but we survived just fine.

If you INSIST on not possibly being able to hang out outside at night, then fine, call a cab company that provides carseats and ask for the newest, cleanest seat availible and at least its better than nothing. I also looked it up, and Hawaii has a bus that goes from the airport to all over the island, thats an even better choice and a lot cheaper. There are also planes that arrive at 5am, the airport must open before that, so its not like its 8 hours outside, more like 4.

But my point is, it shouldn't have happened in the first place, if the OP had brought her carseat on the plane, the choice wouldn't need to be made. I carry mine on a wheely cart along with all of my bags and stuff, its never out of my sight. Life threatening emergency, I'd call an ambulance before I'd try to drive while upset over a crisis. I can't think of any other reason why I wouldn't have a carseat with me, and wouldn't have a way to get home safely as well (walk, bike, bus, wait for a ride with a carseat).


----------



## Lisa1970

I also wonder if you dozed off for a second, if the baby would have crawled away and ended up dead or never found.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> really? I wonder if you would have been picked up for vagrancy - and transported by police car without a carseat?


----------



## mamayogibear

I would without a question take the shuttle to a hotey! There is no reason to subject a child to squatting even if it is in front of an airport. I would gotten on the shuttle and asked the driver not to drive until I was well belted in. Then I would put the seatbelt over myself (shoulder belt if possible so I wouldn't fold over on my lo). Then I would use a woven wrap and done a very snug FWCC covering the entire baby including it's head. Then I would hug my little one with lots of love and tell the driver to 'please drive safe' and if they were driving two recklessly remind them that they are doing their job to shuttle passengers safely. And yes, I've been a similar scenario when traveling when I only had one child when she was about 1.5 and am soo thankful I had brought our size 6 Didymos as a blanket for my daughter even though I never wore her in it anymore at that point (I had just gotten my first shorty) okay I'm getting off topic now.


----------



## amberskyfire

The staying outside issue is kind of a moot point anyway, as they told me that I had to leave. I could not stay outside. I suppose it's something to do with post-9-11 security issues. Nobody can just hang around outside of an airport anymore.


----------



## Honey693

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> It was in Hawaii, not Canada in the middle of winter. Its also illegal to transport a child without a carseat. Even when closed, airports have very high security, so a pretty safe place to be outside. Car accidents are the #1 cause of accidental deaths in children under 12, staying outside with mom for 8 hours in a baby carrier is not even on the list. By the way, I have spent the night outside, alone with my ds when he was a baby, nothing but me, him, and a baby carrier. No, it was not fun and it was tiring, but I didn't feel unsafe, and ds was perfectly happy to nurse or sleep cuddled up next to me. And this was in a place that was pretty cold out at night. Different situation as to why I was outside, but we survived just fine.
> 
> If you INSIST on not possibly being able to hang out outside at night, then fine, call a cab company that provides carseats and ask for the newest, cleanest seat availible and at least its better than nothing. I also looked it up, and Hawaii has a bus that goes from the airport to all over the island, thats an even better choice and a lot cheaper. There are also planes that arrive at 5am, the airport must open before that, so its not like its 8 hours outside, more like 4.
> 
> But my point is, it shouldn't have happened in the first place, if the OP had brought her carseat on the plane, the choice wouldn't need to be made. I carry mine on a wheely cart along with all of my bags and stuff, its never out of my sight. Life threatening emergency, I'd call an ambulance before I'd try to drive while upset over a crisis. I can't think of any other reason why I wouldn't have a carseat with me, and wouldn't have a way to get home safely as well (walk, bike, bus, wait for a ride with a carseat).


Hawaii = hot = exposure to the elements = possible heatstroke

Loitering is illegal too.

Airline tickets are expensive, not everyone is able to afford the extra seat. I'd take a lap baby if it was my only chance at seeing my family.

And why don't you just come out and say I'm a better mom and love my kid more than all you people who don't bring car seats on planes? B/c that's how you come off.


----------



## Silverbird

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DahliaRW*
> 
> I think it's more dangerous to have the baby on you like that. If you go forward in an accident your baby could hit the back of the seat in front of you and be smooshed by your body. I would think laying baby on the floor would technically be the safest.


This is intresting but unfortunatly I can't see any taxi driver letting you lie a baby in the footwell, (though I drove with one who let an adult do it once). Also in a black style cab that wouldn't work either.


----------



## Silverbird

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl*
> 
> Please don't use the "They don't use car seats in other countries..." argument. It's true they don't use car seats but they lose more children in accidents. I live in one of those countries. That's a fact. Everyone's sad and everyone feels sorry for the parents but they continue to not use car seats and that's that.
> 
> Also, don't say "we didn't have car seats and we survived". This is true for us but remember the babies who didn't survive aren't here to share their stories. Hospitals now have trouble supplying organs for children who need them because they no longer have the large number of highway fatalities they used to, thanks to car seats.
> 
> Plus, when I looked up safety stats, almost no one survives plane crashes. They are extremely rare and when they do happen, there are almost never survivors (they are pretty horrific) so the likelihood of the car seat saving her would be low.
> 
> Where did you "look up" these safety stats? I'm a former Flight Attendant and we were told the complete opposite; MORE PEOPLE SURVIVE PLANE ACCIDENTS THAN DIE in them. The idea that "We're all going to die" is not only a myth but it could also mean that YOU don't survive an accident. Many die because they panic or don't make an effort to get out. This is what the airlines do NOT want you to know. They hide this fact from the public because they don't want to make it worse for the surviving relatives. If your loved one ran the wrong way or didn't get out of his seat, that would be difficult to even know and even worse if it were shared with the press!!
> 
> Trust me, having a car seat on the plane can and has made a difference in many accidents. This is NOT a valid reason for not using a car seat on board. Be honest and say you don't want to buy a ticket for your baby because accidents ARE rare and you want to save money. You're placing your bets on the fact you wont have an accident, and chances are very much in your favor. But don't use a flimsy excuse about surviving crashes or the fact your baby "likes to be held", or whatever.
> 
> I was once stuck on a shuttle and I put my baby on the floor. He was a bit bigger. I would have used a baby carrier IF there was a shoulder belt and made sure the shoulder belt did NOT go over any part of the baby.
> 
> For the record, I travel alone internationally with three children and brought a car seat for many years. It's totally do-able if you're organized but you need to be organized!!! I put my car seat on a metal luggage cart (don't buy a Gogo Travelmate, it's basically an overpriced, plastic luggage cart when you can buy a metal one for less that does the same thing). Having a good baby carrier is a must. A lot of the moms here breastfeed and already babywear so that make travel easier.
> 
> For the record, about foreign airlines, I have had my seats taken away from me. One airline I flew didn't allow car seats at all (RyanAir, a low-cost Irish company). I arranged a car seat at our destination in England. I avoid flying our national company, which has been dodgy with car seats and try to fly either a U.S. company or Lufthansa, who are good about accepting foreign car seats (I drive with American car seats here for safety reasons, the ones sold here are not good, especially for rfing and ehing).


Actually I feel the other countires/we survied thing is relevent becuase no-one is trying to say driving unrestrained is safe or as safe as driving restrained just that it is not an automatic death sentence. I remember as a young person seeing a statistic on TV that 2 year olds were statistically safer to be left at home unsupervised that to go with there parents doing errends in the car. Now even if I could find the study I wouldn't expect people to do this, the stats are clearly skewed by the fact that almost on toddlers are left unsupervised (and how the heck did they collect the data?). But their are other good reasons not to leave you child unsupersived. Sometime small risks are not the only factor. Even if the OP had the choice of staying outside all night and the had some stats to show that 0.00000004% of babys left out all night die/are mugged but 0.00000005% die in one unrestreind car ride (numbers entirly made up) I would still support her choice. Comfort and other factors also impact on choices. Why else to women choose to birth in hosptial when studies say home birth is safer? (or visa versa depending on the study). The fact that you ever choose to have you baby ride in a car rather than walking everywhere shows you do expose her to some risks.


----------



## dejagerw

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> Life threatening emergency, I'd call an ambulance before I'd try to drive while upset over a crisis. I can't think of any other reason why I wouldn't have a carseat with me, and wouldn't have a way to get home safely as well (walk, bike, bus, wait for a ride with a carseat).


Do ambulances have car seats? I would think by riding in an ambulance you'd automatically be transporting your child without a car seat.


----------



## Eclipsepearl

Is this the right link?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html

Good article. Just one small point I wanted to make. I was with an airline which declared bankruptcy and the FAA were all over us like a bad rash. It's a red flag to them so please don't go by the financial stability to determine how safe an airline is. They may cut down on snacks and blankets but if anything, they'll be watched like hawks (plus the fact that a crash could shut them down completely), especially if lack of maintenance or similar is blamed.

Actually I feel the other countires/we survied thing is relevent becuase no-one is trying to say driving unrestrained is safe or as safe as driving restrained just that it is not an automatic death sentence.

No one is saying it is but it's not valid to use that to justify or determine risks. But interesting about the 2 year at home idea. No, I wouldn't do it, but a lot would depend on where. Our house is a maze of dangerous stairs, a child-unfriendly balcony, nasty glass doors and a really slippery bathroom floor. But I can see the statistics making a case for that (especially since I hope most people have child-friendlier abodes).

It's similar to the lap baby justification. IF something happened, i.e. a fire in the house, it's doubtful that a 2 year old could get out by him or herself alone. Very unlikely that would even happen but...

Do ambulances have car seats? I would think by riding in an ambulance you'd automatically be transporting your child without a car seat.

Ambulances have gurneys with belts and there are nets around them (cousin married to a ambulance guy). Plus the fact they can turn on the siren and get other drivers out of the way (in theory). Plus, it's a really experienced professional driver...


----------



## Irishmommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bobandjess99*
> 
> <... or in a situation where i ended up somehow without a proper seat and simply Could. Not. Get. One.


Which, funnily enough, is the situation the OP was in.

And yes, I realize I deleted where you said you would have done it too.


----------



## NicaG

I think in that situation the best course of action would be to get more details from the hotel about their "shuttle" before they send it to pick you up. Explain to the hotel that you are travelling with a small child and need a carseat if the vehicle is not a bus.

You could also try to call a taxi or car service, many will send a car with a carseat if requested. If it was the airline's fault that you missed your flight, you can try to get them to reimburse you for the cost. I've been reimbursed for buying overnight supplies when the airline has lost my luggage.

Depending on the hour....if there is anyone at the ticket counters, you could ask if there are any carseats in the airlines' lost-and-found and borrow one overnight. Or you could ask a car rental counter if they have one you could borrow overnight.

Or you could make sure to always travel with a carseat, but obviously that is not always practical or even possible.

This website has some good practical information about what to do if you find yourself without a carseat (specifically in NYC taxis, but the info is helpful for other situations too. It does emphasize that wearing a baby in a wrap, Ergo, etc while you buckle yourself in is a pretty bad option: http://www.thecarseatlady.com/taxis/using_taxis.html)

It sounds like you were in a bad situation and you did the best you could


----------



## insidevoice

I'd have hopped in the shuttle and hoped for the best. Goodness- yes, using a car seat is ideal, but the high-and-mighty 'I would never!!' thing is just annoying!

A lot of people are suggesting that they would ALWAYS have the car seat with them as they pay for the seat for the child. When that is too expensive, the choice may be flying with a lap baby or not seeing family. Frankly, I'd fly with a lap baby and I would even be fairly ok with hopping in the shuttle sans car-seat. I might request that the driver be as careful as possible, but really, I'd probably just enjoy the scenery. I refuse to be paralyzed by guilt and fear. I try to make the best choices I can in a given situation, but being able to accept a less-than-ideal situation is important as well. You can't plan for every eventuality.

As for ambulances- the cot is secured into the floor- it can't roll around, and there are straps over the body or sometimes a sort of a net. However, not everyone is secured in the back of an ambulance. In an ideal world, sure, but in the real world they are too busy breathing for someone, taking a blood pressure, hooking up a defibrilator, monitoring bleeding etc. Children in accidents in car seats are usually transported in the car seat. Often there is a layer of duct tape (folded in half over hair so it doesn't stick if they have time) added to help keep the head from moving, but the car seat is the best way to maintain spinal integrity.


----------



## SpaceAngel401

When my cousin was 7 months 0ld (so about 11.5 years ago) a number of my family members was out to eat. Well, when we left the restaurant, my aunt's car was gone. Stolen. And with it, the baby's car seat. I ended up driving them home (about 5 minutes down the road) with Lucas in my aunt's lap.

The police officer who filed the stolen car report told us to take it very carefully, and gave us his name so if we got pulled over, he could verify our story. Their stroller got stolen, too, but in 7 more months they needed a double, anyway.


----------



## SilverFish

hah, that reminds me, last week my mom and i were at the mall shopping. we'd gone by bus so all i had was the umbrella stroller and a carrier. halfway through our trip, my dad called saying that an old family friend had unexpectedly dropped by and we should hurry home and see her. while on the phone, my dad suggested to my mom that he come pick us up. while he saying that, my first thought was, oh, he doesn't have a car seat in his car! right on cue my mom turns to me and says, "he doesn't have the car seat... i guess you wouldn't want to ride home with dd on your lap?"

it made me think of this thread and i just laughed and laughed... no, dad, seeing my mom's old school friend is NOT a desperate enough situation to make me want to drive through city traffic with a toddler on my lap!


----------



## SeattleRain

OP, it sounds like what's done is done, and no one was any worse for wear. The point I think some of the people are trying to get across, is that there really is no way to plan for a situation where I would not have my carseat because I am really dilegent to always have it in case of emergency. The situation where I would not have a carseat would be some kind of disaster scenerio in which there was peril to life and limb and we needed to escape quickly because our life and death immediately depended on it. If one is in a situation like that and they don't have a carseat, then they do the best they can.

In order to make it easier for myself to always have a carseat, I bring it with me all the time. When we fly, I gate check my carseat. I'm not as "good" as some people are who never let it out of their sight, but I can't afford to bring the seat on the plane just yet and he's still lap baby age. When he stops being a lap baby and I need to buy a seat for him, I'll bring the seat on the plan just to restrain him from crawling all over me  In any case, you can buy a cheap Cosco Scenera 40RF for $50 or less and a $10 metal luggage cart and strap the carseat onto it. If you're already wearing the baby, it's not that much extra. The carseat even comes with it's own plastic bag. You could even bungee your carry on onto the seat and pull that around too so you only had the baby on the back and the carseat on the cart. That way you'd have your seat wherever life took you.

Definitely when you fly pack a lot of wipes and diapers. You just never know what's going to happen and it sucks to be stuck anywhere with a diapered baby and no diapers.


----------



## wanderinggypsy

I would have done exactly what you did. It's a risk, a small risk. It suck to have to take it but honestly there are risks everywhere in life. I think you handled the situation very well, and clearly it was not a choice you found easy or made without significant ongoing reflection. Sometimes life throws us curve balls. It's up to us to handle those surprises to the best of our ability,and you did!


----------



## Maedze

A car seat that has been gate checked needs to be treated as a car seat that you found on the side of the road or bought at a yardsale. It's not a question of being 'good'. It's a question of the fact that gate-checked and checked items are regularly flung around, dropped , smashed, squished and mistreated. It is VERY common for a child restraint to be either lost (and then you're up a creek!) or returned with parts broken or missing.

There is also the factor that a lap baby is unsafe, both for the baby and for everyone else in the plane. You have to secure your five pound purse so that it doesn't become a projectile and cause a passenger serious injury, right? If a 20 lb baby hits someone in the head, that person is at serious risk of injury or death, never mind the poor baby.

If you can't afford to buy everyone a ticket, you really can't afford to fly.


----------



## SeattleRain

Sure, but you also don't know how a carseat was treated at the store either. Or shipping. Or whatever. If you buy your seat at BRU, how can you know that your seat wasn't thrown around by baggage handlers or shippers or stockers or whatever? You don't. At some point you have to trust that carseats are not made of ceramic. They're made of plastic that is meant to withstand a certain amount of normal stress. When we install carseats we push on them and pull them and sometimes even accidentally drop them. I'd guess that it takes much much more to really cause harm. I suppose if one is really worrried they could pack the seat back into it's original package with the styrofoam and gate check that. The Cosco scenera doesn't even come with any packing materials. Are you telling me that every single one of those seats are treated with kid gloves before it makes it to Target? And that everyone who pick up one of those seats at the store treats it nicely? I doubt you can make that guarantee.


----------



## Maedze

I can understand why you would feel this way, but there's actually a significant difference in transport and treatment in the wholesale and retail world versus and airline.

Firstly, almost all car seats come packaged in boxes, which, believe it or not, do an excellent job of protecting the restraints. The design of a cardboard box is such that it absorbs forces quite well (ever seen a cardboard box with the corner dinged up, and the material almost accordioned in on itself? Energy absorption!) The Sceneras do come in plastic travel bags, but are boxed together for transport to the store.

And yes, shippers have a vested interest in getting an undamaged product to a store. Shipments are handled relatively carefully. If goods show up to a store regularly damaged, the shipping company stands to lose a LOT of money. Meanwhile, baggage handlers, and airlines, do not care. Ever had to deal with lost or damaged goods? You're lucky if you can get someone to listen respectfully to you, and if you do, the chances of you getting financial recompensation are slim, and usually not at all the value of what was destroyed.

End of story is that car seats should not be checked, they should be used on the plane, and lap babies are extremely dangerous to both themselves and everyone around them, and every major safety organization (the FAA included!) recommends that all children under 40 lbs be secured in a restraint on the plane.

When parents come to our station with seats they've checked, we advise them that the seats need to be disposed of and replaced with new ones.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SeattleRain*
> 
> Sure, but you also don't know how a carseat was treated at the store either. Or shipping. Or whatever. If you buy your seat at BRU, how can you know that your seat wasn't thrown around by baggage handlers or shippers or stockers or whatever? You don't. At some point you have to trust that carseats are not made of ceramic. They're made of plastic that is meant to withstand a certain amount of normal stress. When we install carseats we push on them and pull them and sometimes even accidentally drop them. I'd guess that it takes much much more to really cause harm. I suppose if one is really worrried they could pack the seat back into it's original package with the styrofoam and gate check that. The Cosco scenera doesn't even come with any packing materials. Are you telling me that every single one of those seats are treated with kid gloves before it makes it to Target? And that everyone who pick up one of those seats at the store treats it nicely? I doubt you can make that guarantee.


----------



## PenelopeJune

Quote:


> And yes, shippers have a vested interest in getting an undamaged product to a store.


I disagree. My husband worked at walmart in the distribution center, and he was appalled by the way items were handled. Even big screen tvs were tossed around and dropped like they were nothing. Those people make crap money, they don't care how the items arrive at the store or if the store loses money.

OP, I'd have done the same as you in that situation.


----------



## Honey693

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> If you can't afford to buy everyone a ticket, you really can't afford to fly.


so having a lap baby is worse than having your baby never see their grandparents? This is honestly one of the most awful and elitist things I've read on this board.


----------



## crunchy_mommy

Yeah... or what if the flight was to a family member's death bed or funeral? What if it was part of a relocation so the family could move to a lower COL area? What if it was to obtain vitally necessary medical care? I can think of a lot of reasons people might 'need' to fly even if they technically can't afford it.


----------



## Silverbird

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NicaG*
> 
> This website has some good practical information about what to do if you find yourself without a carseat (specifically in NYC taxis, but the info is helpful for other situations too. It does emphasize that wearing a baby in a wrap, Ergo, etc while you buckle yourself in is a pretty bad option: http://www.thecarseatlady.com/taxis/using_taxis.html)


Thanks NicaG the infro from taxi lady was v intresting. seems unrestrained in a car there are three options, hold in arms, hold in wrap, belt in on lap. All r v v v bad. I get that.

But is there any info about which is least bad. What about having a wrap much lower than nomral so out of the chin range? It was useful that she metions strapping a 1 yr old in is better than nothing but a shame she doesn't say which is the least bad for an infant.


----------



## SeattleRain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PenelopeJune*
> 
> I disagree. My husband worked at walmart in the distribution center, and he was appalled by the way items were handled. Even big screen tvs were tossed around and dropped like they were nothing. Those people make crap money, they don't care how the items arrive at the store or if the store loses money.
> 
> OP, I'd have done the same as you in that situation.


This. Last time I was BRU I saw employees throwing boxes around left and right. At Costco stuff falls off that cart all the times and employees just shove them back on. Stuff certainly isn't treated well at stores. The argument that carseats can't be checked because who knows how things are treated from the time you let it out of your hands can easily be applied to products at the store. When you see that neat Scenera sitting on the shelf, you have no clue what it's life was like.

Your argument about cardborad boxed providing protection during shipping doesn't really do much better. I could easily put the seat in a cardboard box. Would that make it safer? I'd guess you'd say no. Are there any statistics on carseat failures after being checked or gatechecked (which is a different process altogether, just in case you weren't aware).


----------



## new2this

Have you ever worked on a loading dock? . The drivers yes are probably more active in how their trucks are loaded and have invested into their load however once it is off the truck yeah different story on how things are treated. Even before it hits the truck.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> I can understand why you would feel this way, but there's actually a significant difference in transport and treatment in the wholesale and retail world versus and airline.
> 
> Firstly, almost all car seats come packaged in boxes, which, believe it or not, do an excellent job of protecting the restraints. The design of a cardboard box is such that it absorbs forces quite well (ever seen a cardboard box with the corner dinged up, and the material almost accordioned in on itself? Energy absorption!) The Sceneras do come in plastic travel bags, but are boxed together for transport to the store.
> 
> And yes, shippers have a vested interest in getting an undamaged product to a store. Shipments are handled relatively carefully. If goods show up to a store regularly damaged, the shipping company stands to lose a LOT of money. Meanwhile, baggage handlers, and airlines, do not care. Ever had to deal with lost or damaged goods? You're lucky if you can get someone to listen respectfully to you, and if you do, the chances of you getting financial recompensation are slim, and usually not at all the value of what was destroyed.
> 
> End of story is that car seats should not be checked, they should be used on the plane, and lap babies are extremely dangerous to both themselves and everyone around them, and every major safety organization (the FAA included!) recommends that all children under 40 lbs be secured in a restraint on the plane.
> 
> When parents come to our station with seats they've checked, we advise them that the seats need to be disposed of and replaced with new ones.


----------



## NicaG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Silverbird*
> 
> Thanks NicaG the infro from taxi lady was v intresting. seems unrestrained in a car there are three options, hold in arms, hold in wrap, belt in on lap. All r v v v bad. I get that.
> 
> But is there any info about which is least bad. What about having a wrap much lower than nomral so out of the chin range? It was useful that she metions strapping a 1 yr old in is better than nothing but a shame she doesn't say which is the least bad for an infant.


The website seems to favor buckling a toddler/young toddler into a regular seatbelt over wearing the child in a wrap and buckling yourself in. After watching the video, it looks like the real problem with the wrap is that it just shreds on impact, sending the baby flying into the interior of the car, into the seatback, into the windshield. So it's really no better than holding the baby on your lap. I guess if the baby is buckled into a seatbelt, at least it helps somewhat to prevent the baby from being ejected from the car or hitting the interior of the car.


----------



## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> A car seat that has been gate checked needs to be treated as a car seat that you found on the side of the road or bought at a yardsale. It's not a question of being 'good'. It's a question of the fact that gate-checked and checked items are regularly flung around, dropped , smashed, squished and mistreated. It is VERY common for a child restraint to be either lost (and then you're up a creek!) or returned with parts broken or missing.
> 
> There is also the factor that a lap baby is unsafe, both for the baby and for everyone else in the plane. You have to secure your five pound purse so that it doesn't become a projectile and cause a passenger serious injury, right? If a 20 lb baby hits someone in the head, that person is at serious risk of injury or death, never mind the poor baby.
> 
> *If you can't afford to buy everyone a ticket, you really can't afford to fly. *


Such a privileged statement.


----------



## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> I can understand why you would feel this way, but there's actually a significant difference in transport and treatment in the wholesale and retail world versus and airline.
> 
> Firstly, almost all car seats come packaged in boxes, which, believe it or not, do an excellent job of protecting the restraints. The design of a cardboard box is such that it absorbs forces quite well (ever seen a cardboard box with the corner dinged up, and the material almost accordioned in on itself? Energy absorption!) The Sceneras do come in plastic travel bags, but are boxed together for transport to the store.
> 
> And yes, shippers have a vested interest in getting an undamaged product to a store. Shipments are handled relatively carefully. If goods show up to a store regularly damaged, the shipping company stands to lose a LOT of money. Meanwhile, baggage handlers, and airlines, do not care. Ever had to deal with lost or damaged goods? You're lucky if you can get someone to listen respectfully to you, and if you do, the chances of you getting financial recompensation are slim, and usually not at all the value of what was destroyed.
> 
> End of story is that car seats should not be checked, they should be used on the plane, and lap babies are extremely dangerous to both themselves and everyone around them, and *every major safety organization (the FAA included!) recommends that all children under 40 lbs be secured in a restraint on the plane. *
> 
> When parents come to our station with seats they've checked, we advise them that the seats need to be disposed of and replaced with new ones.


Some international carriers don't even allow you to bring a carseat on.


----------



## NicaG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> A car seat that has been gate checked needs to be treated as a car seat that you found on the side of the road or bought at a yardsale. It's not a question of being 'good'. It's a question of the fact that gate-checked and checked items are regularly flung around, dropped , smashed, squished and mistreated. It is VERY common for a child restraint to be either lost (and then you're up a creek!) or returned with parts broken or missing.
> 
> There is also the factor that a lap baby is unsafe, both for the baby and for everyone else in the plane. You have to secure your five pound purse so that it doesn't become a projectile and cause a passenger serious injury, right? If a 20 lb baby hits someone in the head, that person is at serious risk of injury or death, never mind the poor baby.
> 
> If you can't afford to buy everyone a ticket, you really can't afford to fly.


I think it's a little extreme to insist that everyone who gate-checks a car seat needs to throw the seat away. Is there any evidence that gate-checked seats have malfunctioned later in an accident? Any evidence at all?

As for lap babies on airplanes, hasn't this been discussed a million times on this forum? I think it comes down to probability. Yes, we can all agree that holding a baby on your lap on an airplane is not the absolute safest way to fly. However, we all do risky things each day. Based on actual statistics, airlines and governments around the world have decided that the risk of a lap baby being injured during a flight are very very small, probably smaller than the risk of crossing the street as a pedestrian, definitely smaller than the risk of riding in a car in a properly installed car seat. Governments and airlines have decided to allow the practice of lap babies to continue. For those who can afford a seat for their baby, great. We all know that it's safer. But I think it's unfair to attack those parents who bring lap babies on a plane. Those parents have decided that the amount of risk involved is acceptable to them, and that's a legal, and in my mind reasonable decision. Can anyone give me actual statistics about how many lap babies travel each year, and how many are injured?


----------



## Maedze

Anyone who can get in a car is 'privileged'. Anyone who can buy an airline ticket is privileged.

I find the whole, "Oh, I can't afford to fly if I have to buy my baby a ticket" is completely disingenous. If it was the law (as it will be within a few years, a lot of us are working very hard to get rid of the lap-baby loophole and the FAA is completely onboard), you'd find a way to pay for it if you're flying in the first place, as you will the moment your baby turns two.

The number of people who stop flying when their child turns two, but flew anywhere and everywhere up to 23 months is pretty much non-existent. My guess is, if you were legally required to, you would.

You are, of course, completely welcome (for the time being, until the law changes) welcome to disregard my advice, but making personal attacks simply makes you look foolish.

And if you can scrape up for X months to buy 1 or 2 tickets, you can scrape up for X number of more tickets to buy the third.


----------



## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Anyone who can get in a car is 'privileged'. Anyone who can buy an airline ticket is privileged.
> 
> I find the whole, "Oh, I can't afford to fly if I have to buy my baby a ticket" is completely disingenous. If it was the law (as it will be within a few years, a lot of us are working very hard to get rid of the lap-baby loophole and the FAA is completely onboard), you'd find a way to pay for it if you're flying in the first place, as you will the moment your baby turns two.
> 
> The number of people who stop flying when their child turns two, but flew anywhere and everywhere up to 23 months is pretty much non-existent. My guess is, if you were legally required to, you would.
> 
> You are, of course, completely welcome (for the time being, until the law changes) welcome to disregard my advice, but making personal attacks simply makes you look foolish.
> 
> And if you can scrape up for X months to buy 1 or 2 tickets, you can scrape up for X number of more tickets to buy the third.


the op was given a ticket as a gift. Also, many international carriers don't allow carseats.


----------



## EviesMom

I can see how you could still have this problem, even if the child were over 2 and not car seated on the plane due to having a travel vest or an available carseat on the other end. I suppose if they are old enough to be non-car seated on the plane, they are old enough to do seatbelt only if absolutely necessary. I have belted mine in as toddlers in a similar situation. No shoulder strap, just lap belt. The floor seems like a somewhat reasonable option as well.

In the OP scenario though, I would probably make a very big stink about being kicked out sans help if the missed flight was their fault in any way. Perhaps I'd also call a local tv station, who often advertise in the airport to publicize what they're doing. Also, you could insist that they call the police and ask them for assistance, maybe even including a car seat, as they often seem to have some available for demonstrations. Last, maybe if you have internet access, or just look up before you go a phone num for a local church/synagogue/similar of your denomination/religion. They often have all hours crisis or help lines, and many would be able to get a car seat and driver to you if not a place to stay. I'd have done the same though if I had to get in the car somewhere. Wrap won't help in a crash, but should at least minimize minor jostling I think.


----------



## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Anyone who can get in a car is 'privileged'. Anyone who can buy an airline ticket is privileged.
> 
> I find the whole, "Oh, I can't afford to fly if I have to buy my baby a ticket" is completely disingenous. If it was the law (as it will be within a few years, *a lot of us are working very hard to get rid of the lap-baby loophole and the FAA is completely onboard),* you'd find a way to pay for it if you're flying in the first place, as you will the moment your baby turns two.
> 
> The number of people who stop flying when their child turns two, but flew anywhere and everywhere up to 23 months is pretty much non-existent. My guess is, if you were legally required to, you would.
> 
> You are, of course, completely welcome (for the time being, until the law changes) welcome to disregard my advice, but making personal attacks simply makes you look foolish.
> 
> And if you can scrape up for X months to buy 1 or 2 tickets, you can scrape up for X number of more tickets to buy the third.


also -  to the bolded.


----------



## Adaline'sMama

You can buy a seat all you want, but how many toddlers are going to stay put in a carseat while people are walking around to and from the bathroom? Is the seat ONLY for take off and landing? Are you going to strap your kid into a carseat when the plane is going down in midst of all the chaos? Probably not. So, most people would probably take their kid out if he/she was screaming right? My kid would scream the entire time if she was in a seat, making everyone's flight absolutely miserable. I flew with my three month old last summer and she nursed almost the whole time. I guess I should have paid over $300 so that I could hold her and nurse her on a 8 hour flight?









Im flying in 4 weeks on a 5 hours straight flight with a lap baby, not because I cant afford to buy her a ticket, but because it would be pointless to spend $250.00 because I wouldnt keep her in the seat if she were screaming (and she would be after that many hours in a carseat). I hope you are not successful in changing the regulations, because a lot less people will take their children places if they cant hold them.


----------



## amberskyfire

Sadly, I would not have been able to put DD in the car seat on the plane even if we had one plus the $1000 ticket. She was a screamer like yours. I wasn't able to put her down until almost age two. It was awful. We never went anywhere in the car. She would scream so hard that by about two minutes into the drive, she would turn purple, choke and couldn't breathe anymore. To this day, she still will start to suffocate and panic if she gets too worked up. It would have been a very very expensive empty seat next to us. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> You can buy a seat all you want, but how many toddlers are going to stay put in a carseat while people are walking around to and from the bathroom? Is the seat ONLY for take off and landing? Are you going to strap your kid into a carseat when the plane is going down in midst of all the chaos? Probably not. So, most people would probably take their kid out if he/she was screaming right? My kid would scream the entire time if she was in a seat, making everyone's flight absolutely miserable. I flew with my three month old last summer and she nursed almost the whole time. I guess I should have paid over $300 so that I could hold her and nurse her on a 8 hour flight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im flying in 4 weeks on a 5 hours straight flight with a lap baby, not because I cant afford to buy her a ticket, but because it would be pointless to spend $250.00 because I wouldnt keep her in the seat if she were screaming (and she would be after that many hours in a carseat). I hope you are not successful in changing the regulations, because a lot less people will take their children places if they cant hold them.


----------



## pammysue

OP, I would have done the same thing in your situation and been a nervous wreck the whole time. But, being able to look at it from a distance, I wonder if the police would be able to help you. I am sure they must have some car seats on hand in emergencies or be able to get one, maybe from an ambulance. At least they may be able to provide you with a better alternative.

Maedze-the number of flights we have taken with DS1 to see my family has reduced significantly since he turned two. We simply cannot afford the extra ticket and I am afraid that once DS2 turns two we will not be flying to see my family at all, which means not going home since they live 2500 miles away. (I'm not looking for sympathy, just stating the facts.)


----------



## Honey693

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Anyone who can get in a car is 'privileged'. Anyone who can buy an airline ticket is privileged.
> 
> I find the whole, "Oh, I can't afford to fly if I have to buy my baby a ticket" is completely disingenous. If it was the law (as it will be within a few years, a lot of us are working very hard to get rid of the lap-baby loophole and the FAA is completely onboard), you'd find a way to pay for it if you're flying in the first place, as you will the moment your baby turns two.
> 
> The number of people who stop flying when their child turns two, but flew anywhere and everywhere up to 23 months is pretty much non-existent. My guess is, if you were legally required to, you would.
> 
> You are, of course, completely welcome (for the time being, until the law changes) welcome to disregard my advice, but making personal attacks simply makes you look foolish.
> 
> And if you can scrape up for X months to buy 1 or 2 tickets, you can scrape up for X number of more tickets to buy the third.


1. We flew until DD1 hit 2. Now we drive (godawful and usually not feasible) or don't go at all b/c the extra $400 expense if not in the budget. If we had a sick family member and had to fly we'd be screwed or not able to say goodbye.

2. I highly doubt that in a few years lap babies won't be allowed. This is the first time I have heard anything about this. And if keeping kids rear facing in cars until 2 isn't law I can't see how anyone would be concerned about the safety of lap babies in plane,s which is much safer.

3. You sound incredibly elitist and I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG in your posts. I really hope that's not your intent and that your intent is to give people information on the risks and benefits of a situation so they can make their own decisions.


----------



## alpenglow

How awful - sorry you had to go through that!

If it were me, depending on size of baby I'd probably borrow someone's travel system (carseat on stroller combo), check to ensure it meets airline size restrictions for "gate checks", then load up the stroller with carseat/baby and carry on luggage, have 3 yr old walk (or carry an Ergo or similar carrier if you have to put her on your back). Then do what's called a "gate check" where the stroller/carseat is left at the door of the plane and is ready and waiting for you when you get off. The hardest part is retrieving your checked baggage, but most airports have large luggage carts for rent (this is when you have to get creative with loading up the cart and having a hands free carrier for baby if you can't manage both the cart and the stroller. The key is to minimize having to carry or tow things (to keep at least one hand free at all times)...and instead try to get as much of your precious cargo on wheels and/or strapped on your body!


----------



## amberskyfire

I really like the police idea. That is fab! Thank you! I honestly think the police would just tell me not to worry about getting in the shuttle the one time without a car seat, but it sounds like an awesome first option and it certainly can't hurt to ask. Or beg.  I'll keep that in mind next time. At the very least, it would probably be safer to ride in the police vehicle than in the shuttle if they didn't happen to have a car seat they could provide. Hawaii towns are tiny and I don't know that they keep them for that kind of use or not.


----------



## Maedze

AgaIn, personal attacks make you look foolish. You are of course welcome to ignore safety information, but name calling the person who provides it doesn't somehow make it safe to do something that isn't. I realize it's a defense mechanism so I'm choosing not to take it personally.

As for 'I haven't heard anything about that so it can't be true!'.....uh, ok? You are incorrect.

All children under 40 lbs should be restrained in an approved restraint when the fasten seatbelt light is on, same as everyone over 40 should be in a belt or appropriate restraint. Take off, landing, turbulence.


----------



## Delilah83

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Anyone who can get in a car is 'privileged'. Anyone who can buy an airline ticket is privileged.
> 
> I find the whole, "Oh, I can't afford to fly if I have to buy my baby a ticket" is completely disingenous. If it was the law (as it will be within a few years, a lot of us are working very hard to get rid of the lap-baby loophole and the FAA is completely onboard), you'd find a way to pay for it if you're flying in the first place, as you will the moment your baby turns two.
> 
> The number of people who stop flying when their child turns two, but flew anywhere and everywhere up to 23 months is pretty much non-existent. My guess is, if you were legally required to, you would.
> 
> You are, of course, completely welcome (for the time being, until the law changes) welcome to disregard my advice, but making personal attacks simply makes you look foolish.
> 
> And if you can scrape up for X months to buy 1 or 2 tickets, you can scrape up for X number of more tickets to buy the third.


What if it's an emergency you don't have a lot of lead time to save the tickets? My husband's grandfather died last year and it was totally unexpected.We had actually JUST been out there to visit him two weeks prior and he was in great shape, two weeks later he was dead and we had to scrape together 1,000+ to fly out for the funeral. We checked the car seat at the gate and the baby flew on our laps.

Anyway last winter we had a huge blizzard. My sister in law got roped into closing at her store and had mother in law go and pick her up. They both got stranded in traffic and it took them close to 4 fours to to get home, what is normally a 20 minute drive. Since my husband and I live closest to our then 18 month old neice's daycare we ended up picking her up from daye care. Since we didn't have a car seat at the time husband just buckled the baby in the back seat of his two door and drove very very carefully. It wasn't an ideal situation (really it was a nerve-wracking one) but it's not a choice I'd agonize over. The day care was closing, we couldn't just camp out on the sidewalk.


----------



## Adaline'sMama

Airlines are already suffering financially. Several airlines have filed losses for the past several years. Its no secret that they are not doing well. If they add this new regulation, I can imagine that it will only negatively impact their financial gain. They are a company after all, what exactly do they have to gain from this?

I remember when my stepgrandpa died when I was little and we lived in Oklahoma. My parents flew back to Kentucky for a week to deal with it, and I had to stay with a friend of theirs. I thought it was SO unfair that my sister (under 2) got to go but I didnt. My parents could not afford to fly me there.


----------



## Honey693

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> All children under 40 lbs should be restrained in an approved restraint when the fasten seatbelt light is on, same as everyone over 40 should be in a belt or appropriate restraint. Take off, landing, turbulence.


So how about on international carriers where car seats aren't allowed?

And being condescending is a defense mechanism so I won't take it personally!


----------



## Boot

To the op, I think you did your best under the circumstances. Life is not perfect and there are risks in everything. I've had to put the car seats in a taxi when my car broke down and the driver looked at me like I was crazy!
On the plane discussion, I recently flew with my toddler so that my father could meet her for the first and last time and so I could say goodbye. It was a 30 hour journey each way with a total of 4 flights. On 2 I managed to get her a seat (I had a car seat), on 2 she was a lap baby. If I had bought her a ticket it would have been $2000. I know some people would have put the ticket on credit, others would have chosen not to go, but for me and my family, I think I made the best choice.


----------



## bamamom

Absolutley. You can only do so m uch and what happened was out of your control. I'm a carseat nerd with the best of them but you were literally stranded.


----------



## SeattleRain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amberskyfire*
> 
> I really like the police idea. That is fab! Thank you! I honestly think the police would just tell me not to worry about getting in the shuttle the one time without a car seat, but it sounds like an awesome first option and it certainly can't hurt to ask. Or beg.  I'll keep that in mind next time. At the very least, it would probably be safer to ride in the police vehicle than in the shuttle if they didn't happen to have a car seat they could provide. Hawaii towns are tiny and I don't know that they keep them for that kind of use or not.


Actually calling the police is literally the best option yet. The police are not ever going to tell you to get into a car without a carseat, because it's against the law (for good reason). They're never going to tell you to break the law. If you're stuck where you've been kicked out of the airport, can't stay on their grounds, and don't have a safe or legal way to transport your child, you should definitely call the police (not 911, just the police). It's possible that they DO have carseats, or they might be able to give you some advice as to get to where you need to go safely and legally.

I'm standing by my suggestion that if you're not going to buy your kid a seat, you should gate check your seat. Even a mishandled seat is better than holding a baby on your lap.


----------



## bamamom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> sorry to be a serial poster, but I am just blown away by the insinuation that the op should have stood outside all night long with her baby. WHy would someone suggest that??!


Because the shaming will somehow make her a better mother and help her make better decisions someday.

good grief. I get so tired of the dogpiling.


----------



## Rivka5

The last time we got stranded overnight because of a missed flight, we were surprised to learn that the airport had a big stash of disposable diapers for just that situation. We mentioned to the person who rescheduled our flight that we didn't have anything with us, and she sent us down to baggage claim where they gave us toiletry kits and several diapers. They had all different sizes, even.

OP, I would have done what you did. I would have been nervous, but the idea that you should have spent the night on a slab of concrete with nothing to eat or drink, no access to a toilet or handwashing facilities, and nothing to keep tropical insects away is completely ludicrous.


----------



## FiveLittleMonkeys

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> AgaIn, personal attacks make you look foolish. You are of course welcome to ignore safety information, but name calling the person who provides it doesn't somehow make it safe to do something that isn't. I realize it's a defense mechanism so I'm choosing not to take it personally.
> 
> As for 'I haven't heard anything about that so it can't be true!'.....uh, ok? You are incorrect.
> 
> All children under 40 lbs should be restrained in an approved restraint when the fasten seatbelt light is on, same as everyone over 40 should be in a belt or appropriate restraint. Take off, landing, turbulence.


And your condescending tone doesn't make you look elitist? Uh...ok?

I realize that it's merely a defense mechanism, so I'm choosing not to take it personally. HTH!!

OP - I would have done the exact same thing you did. Sometimes when you're a parent, you have to make the best of two not-so-great choices.


----------



## katelove

Just curious about something. In the US do you have the little seatbelts for lap babies that attach to the parent's seatbelt? In Australia I've never seen a carseat on a plane. Not sure if it's not permitted or whether it's just never done. But everyone who has a child on their lap has to use the baby seatbelt whenever the seatbelt sign is illuminated.

There's a picture of what I'm talking about here

ETA - just had a look at the website of one of our major airlines. They do recommend carseats are used. Clearly no-one heeds that advice here.


----------



## Silverbird

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NicaG*
> 
> The website seems to favor buckling a toddler/young toddler into a regular seatbelt over wearing the child in a wrap and buckling yourself in. After watching the video, it looks like the real problem with the wrap is that it just shreds on impact, sending the baby flying into the interior of the car, into the seatback, into the windshield. So it's really no better than holding the baby on your lap. I guess if the baby is buckled into a seatbelt, at least it helps somewhat to prevent the baby from being ejected from the car or hitting the interior of the car.


Thanks yes I saw that. but there seemed to be no info on least worst in a no seat situation for a baby. The wrap did shred on impact but that was obviously no worse than holding in arms and it seems to me that you might be in a slower accident the wrap might not shred but a baby in arms might still be thrown out of arms. only a guess but no-on seems to have least bad opotion data for an unrestrained baby, hopefully becuase it happens so rarley.


----------



## MamieCole

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> I can understand why you would feel this way, but there's actually a significant difference in transport and treatment in the wholesale and retail world versus and airline.
> 
> Firstly, almost all car seats come packaged in boxes, which, believe it or not, do an excellent job of protecting the restraints. The design of a cardboard box is such that it absorbs forces quite well (ever seen a cardboard box with the corner dinged up, and the material almost accordioned in on itself? Energy absorption!) The Sceneras do come in plastic travel bags, but are boxed together for transport to the store.
> 
> And yes, shippers have a vested interest in getting an undamaged product to a store. Shipments are handled relatively carefully. If goods show up to a store regularly damaged, the shipping company stands to lose a LOT of money. Meanwhile, baggage handlers, and airlines, do not care. Ever had to deal with lost or damaged goods? You're lucky if you can get someone to listen respectfully to you, and if you do, the chances of you getting financial recompensation are slim, and usually not at all the value of what was destroyed.
> 
> End of story is that car seats should not be checked, they should be used on the plane, *and lap babies are extremely dangerous to both themselves and everyone around them, and every major safety organization (the FAA included!) recommends that all children under 40 lbs be secured in a restraint on the plane. *
> 
> *When parents come to our station with seats they've checked, we advise them that the seats need to be disposed of and replaced with new ones. *


ALL non-secured items on a plane are dangerous in the event of severe turbulence. I don't see any tethers on the hot coffee pots on the service cart...or mandatory velcro restraints on laptops, etc.

And you must live in the land of Trees 'O Money...first the "If you can't afford a baby ticket you can't afford to fly," then the "OHMYGOSH, your baby's seat was checked??? It's now a death trap! If you love your baby you have to buy a new one!!!" Ya know, like $200 bucks is no biggie. If you are going to dish out that sort of advice in today's economy, I suggest you also offer to buy the seat for them.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Anyone who can get in a car is 'privileged'. Anyone who can buy an airline ticket is privileged.
> 
> I find the whole, "Oh, I can't afford to fly if I have to buy my baby a ticket" is completely disingenous. If it was the law (as it will be within a few years, a lot of us are working very hard to get rid of the lap-baby loophole and the FAA is completely onboard), you'd find a way to pay for it if you're flying in the first place, as you will the moment your baby turns two.
> 
> *The number of people who stop flying when their child turns two, but flew anywhere and everywhere up to 23 months is pretty much non-existent*. My guess is, if you were legally required to, you would.
> 
> You are, of course, completely welcome (for the time being, until the law changes) welcome to disregard my advice, but making personal attacks simply makes you look foolish.
> 
> And if you can scrape up for X months to buy 1 or 2 tickets, you can scrape up for X number of more tickets to buy the third.












Well, now you can say there is at least ONE such person. We flew with DS1 on six different trips between the ages of 6 weeks-2 years to visit family across country. We haven't been able to afford to fly since. So he hasn't seen his grandpa in over 2 years.

And overall, you are just coming across as pretty mean and elitist to everyone on this thread. HTH!


----------



## swede

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> A car seat that has been gate checked needs to be treated as a car seat that you found on the side of the road or bought at a yardsale.


Absolutely, unequivocally, NOT true. People, please don't think you can't use your gate checked car seat.


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## OkiMom

I probably would have done exactly what you did. Staying outside the airport was not an option because (trust me, Ive heard it happened) they would have called the police on you. I doubt it would have been good to have your baby at a police station either and then once again you would have been stuck in a situation of no carseat and a car ride.

I have been on airlines that don't allow car seats so even though I usually (all but once) buy my children their own tickets there are times I DON"T have a carseat when I get off the plane since I wasn't allowed to bring it on with me. I could see a similar situation happening if I didn't make one of my connections.

As for not traveling if you can't buy your baby a ticket. The decision to buy your child a ticket or not is a personal one. Not everyone can afford to buy their child their own ticket. Sometime early next year I'll most likely be traveling with my baby as a lap child because of the cost of a last minute ticket. I won't know until maybe a week out when Im going to be flying and Im not missing my husband getting back after 9 months overseas because I don't want to fly a very short flight with a lap child.


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## amberskyfire

In my opinion, the risk of flying with a lap baby is so low, that it's not something I consider if you really can't afford it. I do things that are much riskier every day, like get in my car or take DD swimming with me in the ocean with all the other mamas and their babies. Things happen, but if something has such a miniscule risk attached to it, I'm not going to put it above my child ever seeing their family again. If it was really that much of a risk, I wouldn't get on the plane in the first place. I'm a stickler for safety, but that's just so unlikely. We flew and I kept my daughter in the wrap the entire time where she slept tightly against me except when she needed a diaper change.

Getting into a car without a car seat, on the other hand, worries me. Next time, I'll call the police department and ask them to help me. I love that idea!


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## Blayzes Mommy

DH and I are expecting DD in Nov... I never really thought about flying w/ her. I grew up flying on commercial airlines ( my father worked for one.. so it was dirt cheap. It was an amazing experiance as a child) my father also has a private liscense. So to say I haven't spent my fair share up in the air... well I really don't see where either side is wrong.. I've been on many a flight next to a very content baby in mom's arms, and tbh more flights where the child is screaming because it's well intentioned mother has it strapped into a seat. imo the screaming child is the more at risk one in general ( I've heard of all sorts of horrible things to "quiet them" includeing OTC drugs. when simply saying "Hold them if the seat-belt sign is on"). But.. haveing said that I also will not fly w/out a restraint devise for my child, I've been threw some bad turbulance. It is best imo more often the not to "Have it, because if you don't you'll need it". having said that... I honestly can't begrudge someone who feels differently.

OP I think given the circumstances you deffinately did the right thing... Lesson learned... Always ALWAYS have a carry-on w/ needed things. I always pack a small bag w/ the bare essentials in-case of a lay-over or something bad happens. which I'm sure will become a larger "small bag" And I can't think of many circumstances where I would willingly fly 'nore drive w/out a restraint devise in tow. But I woulnd't freak out if I had reason not to.. I'de proballly be freaking out over whatever caused the instance to begin with.

I can not think of any circumstance where sitting outside all night w/ a small child is better then a short car-ride w/out a seat. I'm actually very surprized the airline would leave you in such a state. I've been put up more 'n once by them for a missed flight ( that was their fault not mine)


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