# Your thoughts on guns, please...



## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

I'm having a hard time with this topic. I hate getting overly involved with background, but I kinda feel it's warranted this time.

My son is 3.5. Our neighbor kids have a ridiculous arsenal of play guns. They are 7 and 9. I don't really make any comments to them about their guns, but they do a lot of violent play (even without the guns) so it has been discussed to quite an extent with DS.

He also has a grandfather (my dad) who is really into guns, but only for target practice and hunting. He goes hunting a few times a year, once with my step-brother, and they share the meat with us. My Dad is super super paranoid about gun safety and has his guns under triple lock and key, and he's the only one who has the key to the room they are stored in. My DS has seen a few of Papa's guns when he happened upon him cleaning them, but the guns were immediately re-stored once DS came in the room. Papa has indicated that he really wants to teach DS how to use a gun when he is the appropriate age (we have not agreed yet on an age) and to take him hunting when he is a teen. I can just hear the excitement in both their voices when they talk about it. We have had endless conversations about it, I've played "hunting" with him, and we've watched some YouTube videos of skeet shooting competitions in an attempt to take some of the new sheen off the topic. He's still obsessed.

I hate guns. I feel they can be used as a tool, and I don't have a problem with the hunting stuff (as long as we talk about safety and laws and conservation and all that at some point) but that kind of gun play inevitably leads to shooting people (especially with the neighbor kids outside shooting each other all the time







).

I have read some of Playful Parenting and the author says that this is a typical thing they just have to work through. We do not have any toy guns, but everything else has become a gun. What sorts of things do you teach through this type of play? What's age appropriate for 3.5yo? Do I tell him not to shoot people, or let him work through that? How do I answer the every 15 min questions "Am I old enough for a gun yet?" Do I get over my feelings about playing games where I am an animal and he shoots me (it just feels so yucky to me) or limit his games to non-people shooting?

What are your thoughts? I'm willing to hear both sides of the argument. I know this is a hot topic, I hope I haven't offended anyone.

TIA.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Good questions. I don't have anyone super-close in our family who hunts, but we do have family and friends with guns (all very responsible as mentioned)

My thoughts are that I would not allow shooting of people in play at all, ever (even if people are "pretending" to be animals)

I would set an age to discuss the gun so that there isn't the constant when when when. Set an age that you're comfortable with, it will be much easier to bring it lower than move it higher. Say- We can discuss you having a gun at 10 (or whatever...) and stick to the number for now so that the questions can become un-needed (then can become not tolerated







)

good luck!

-Angela


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Oh crap, I posted this in the wrong forum. Mods, could you move this to Parenting please?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'll keep it short.

I've never had a problem with my kids playing with toy guns. DS1 had a moderate arsenal (was _way_ more into swords and such, though) as a child. The only real rule I ever had was that he wasn't to "shoot" at anybody who didn't want to be "shot" at, as I know some people are really bothered by that. Other than that, it was pretty much free play, to the best of my recollection (he's 17, and those days seem like a lifetime ago). I've honestly never understood why people object to toy guns, so I can't really give you any 'counters".

Real guns? We don't have any in our circle, and I don't believe any of my kids have ever seen one, except maybe on a police officer's belt, in passing. The issue of gun safety, etc. has never really come up much. I wouldn't have a problem with them learning to shoot/hunt at an appropriate age...which would vary from one child to another. In ds2's case, I'm guessing...30? (Okay - kidding, but sort of not kidding.)

I'm probably incoherent, as my brain is shutting down due to heat.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I would not interfere with or mediate his play when he's playing with other kids, unless someone's unhappy. But I think it's perfectly appropriate to say "I don't enjoy the game where you pretend to shoot me, and I won't play it with you."

I agree that setting an age where you will CONSIDER a gun is a good idea -- not before you're ten (or whatever), after that it's up to you to prove to me that you're responsible and careful and can respect the gun rules. And then remind him that he may not ask about it before then.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with Playful Parenting for the most part - it's normal but it's okay to turn the play in a different direction.

We only have a couple of water guns but other things have turned into guns, and we have swords and a lightsaber. (I don't really know how to explain that - it's better to kill people in an archaic and personal way?







)

However our rule for play is "you don't shoot people who aren't playing that game with you and okay with it. Guns bother many people."

This rule came up after I spoke with an acquaintance who is a refugee and she talked about how the play disturbs her...I was looking for a way to frame the discussion anyway and it motivated me to make a rule. I can't say my son always remembers it but he tries.

For real guns, we have a relative who has a gun (he keeps it at his shooting range, not in his home). I want to learn to to shoot it sometime and I've said when my son is 15 or 16 if he would like to and this relative is willing then he can. But it's not coming from my son at this point. I like the idea of "we'll talk about it when you're 12" or something. I don't know a lot about hunting culture so I can't really speak to that.


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## becca_howell (Jan 3, 2009)

My thoughts? 1. Guns are for protection and seeking food (hunting). 2. Play guns should never look like real guns, and they should never be played with by shooting at another human, even if they're playing "cops and robbers". 3. Guns should ONLY be kept in the house with safety in mind (locked up, separate from bullets).

DH's family owns guns. DH has a gun, but it is kept at the in-law's house because we don't have the means to safely store it. When we do have a safe, I want a gun (two actually, one for hunting, one for safety), but only after going through a gun safety course and learning how to shoot propperly. We will teach our children about gun safety from the minute we purchase a gun safe (before the guns get in the house). They will know not to mess with the safe, and when they are at an age of responsibility and accountability (for this subject, I think it would be around 15 or 16), we will put them through a gun safety course and, if they wish, purchase them a gun for hunting.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
We only have a couple of water guns but other things have turned into guns, and we have swords and a lightsaber. (I don't really know how to explain that - it's better to kill people in an archaic and personal way?







)

However our rule for play is "you don't shoot people who aren't playing that game with you and okay with it. Guns bother many people."

I think its sort of an unavoidable phase of play for most people. I would set rules that apply to weapons in general...slingshots, water cannons, bricks, kitchen knives. We don't shoot people who don't want to be shot (especially with the water cannon!); we don't point butter knives at people; we don't throw bricks at people, we don't turn people into toads with the magic wand unless they want it, etc.

As for real guns, I would set an age for that and make it the end of the conversation, just like "when can I drive?"

It's a tough line to walk....

ETA: I guess what I'm saying is that I would phrase the rule in a "respecting others" way. HTH.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I agree with Playful Parenting for the most part - it's normal but it's okay to turn the play in a different direction.

We only have a couple of water guns but other things have turned into guns, and we have swords and a lightsaber. (I don't really know how to explain that - it's better to kill people in an archaic and personal way?







)

Wow, thanks for all the fast replies!









That's funny, GuildJenn, we also have several swords, one that is even bigger than DS







. I think a sword feels different to me because I can defend myself. Our rule with swords is that you don't sword fight anyone unless they also have a sword and agree to fight. With a gun, it's pretty much "Bang, I killed you!" and that's it.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
I think its sort of an unavoidable phase of play for most people. I would set rules that apply to weapons in general...slingshots, water cannons, bricks, kitchen knives. We don't shoot people who don't want to be shot (especially with the water cannon!); we don't point butter knives at people; we don't throw bricks at people, we don't turn people into toads with the magic wand unless they want it, etc.

As for real guns, I would set an age for that and make it the end of the conversation, just like "when can I drive?"

It's a tough line to walk....

ETA: I guess what I'm saying is that I would phrase the rule in a "respecting others" way. HTH.

That's a much better way to put it generally.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Well, we do have guns so that may skew my answer a bit.

Our boys are obsessed. With guns, shooting, war, Army, etc. We don't have toy guns because guns are not toys. They're very real and since we do have them in the house, I don't want gun and toy associated. Now, my boys are typical boys and turn anything into a gun. So we have some rules for that. Mainly, they're never to shoot people.

DS1 knows that he can hunt when he's 12, so that's what we talk about. He has shot a gun a few times at targets and that's all he'll be allowed to do until he's 12ish. Even now at their ages (8 & 4), we talk about guns, what to do if you see one, safety, etc. It's never too early to start, imo.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I never really made a big deal of gun play when mine were little. My brother, his friends and I played "War" together when we were kids - to the point of digging foxholes, building forts, setting booby traps, etc. They were some good times.

My kids had some toy guns - I didn't go out of the way to either buy them or ban them. Water pistols, to me, are a different animal.

Both my Dad and brother have guns. I don't even know where they're stored, except that they are not accessible.

We live in an area where a lot of people hunt, so I took both of my kids to gun safety classes as soon as they were old enough.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:

I've never had a problem with my kids playing with toy guns. DS1 had a moderate arsenal (was way more into swords and such, though) as a child. The only real rule I ever had was that he wasn't to "shoot" at anybody who didn't want to be "shot" at, as I know some people are really bothered by that. Other than that, it was pretty much free play, to the best of my recollection (he's 17, and those days seem like a lifetime ago). I've honestly never understood why people object to toy guns, so I can't really give you any 'counters".
I agree with this. IMO, guns are really no different than any other play weapons and it's been my experience that kids, of both genders, tend to turn anything into weapons to play with. Bananas become guns, straws become swords etc...especially of they are denied the actual toys. And, I find that very few kids who engage in this sort of play come even close to wanting to kill people.

Now, as to REAL guns...they scare the piss out of me. My DH is former military and when we met, he was a correctional officer. He obviously has LOTS of experience with guns and gun safety. Even so, dd1 was 6 when we got married and one of the very few things I put my foot down on was that I didn't want a real gun in the house. He doesn't hunt, so the gun he owned was for "protection" and a little bit of practice for work (obviously out at the range etc.)

My reason was, my dad had a gun. I remember regularly finding it and "playing" with it when I was a kid. My dad totally kept the safety on, and the ammo was kept totally seperate and I don't recall ever finding that. But, that doesn't change the fact that we could have easily gotten it out of the house and played with it elsewhere etc. So, no guns around my kids. If I could find my dad's, my kids could find DH's and figure out how to "play" with them.

Having said that...I do 100% believe that if there are going to be real guns where the kids are, it's way way way safer to expose them to the guns and teach them proper gun safety than it is to try to pretend the guns don't exist. To me, it's like water safety...it's safer to teach a child to swim than to never bring the child around water.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

We don't have guns and we don't spend time in the homes of people who have guns, period. We talk a lot about why that is the case.

We don't buy guns, with the exception of supersoaker types, where getting wet is the point, and everyone has to want to join in or we don't use them.

If kids chose to form guns out of their fingers or sticks or whatever, while we don't encourage it, we don't forbid it.


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

Well for us guns are in our life. I personally dont have a problem with responsible gun ownership/use. Meanining when the day comes DH will teach the kids how to use a gun/clean it/how to get a license and so forth.

I do have a problem with play "shooting" because for us guns are not considered a "toy" they are tool for hunting/sport/protection and irl shooting someone is a very serious legal/ethical/religous matter for our family so personally I dont feel comfortable with the boys pretending to shoot people.

It seems that the boys get it, for example our neighbors have every play gun imaginable actually some are quite realistic that i've taken a double take. Teh boys will often comment on it and dosent x know that guns are not toys? because they seem them running around and shooting each other and laughing.

I also wanted to make sure that they know basic gun safety because although we are very careful we knwo that they may one day encounter them at someone elses house or child.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I know people in a similar situation to you. Their rules are more or less:

You can play hunting, but murder is not a game and you never shoot people.

You may have non-realistic toy guns, since you make them out of pieces of toilet paper anyway, but you may not play with them at the park as some children do not like that kind of game.

You can go hunting with your dad when you are X years old IF you show the responsibility you need to be around a weapon.

(I think having a concrete number helps.)

Re: Swords, well, we just say you can't hit a person with a sword, but you can fence. Fencing is a sport. You can't stab. You may, however, use the sword as a tool.

(ETA... I was way more anal about this until my sister married a gun-owner and my husband joined the military and I was basically faced with the reality of the lives of small children...)


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## AtYourCervices (Feb 22, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about the kids playing cops & robbers or any other such game with other kids whose parents aren't opposed to gun play. No big deal there, as long as they are pre-pubescent. I have some friends (guys in their mid 20s) who got arrested for playing with toy guns in their own front yard.







They weren't aiming the guns at anybody else, and they weren't being especially loud. One person was wearing a chicken suit. Still, somebody didn't think it was funny, so they called the cops, and my buddies were all arrested (one was handcuffed and taken downtown dressed like a chicken). Moral is: playing with toy guns is okay up until a certain age, as long as there aren't sensitive neighbors around, and nobody's wearing a costume.

Now, instead of pretending you're an animal, and your child pointing the gun at you, I'd suggest putting stuffed animals and dolls around. Leave some out in the open, and others hidden. Use that as an opportunity to teach your child that 1.) don't shoot at the dolls because they're people and 2.) don't shoot at an animal unless it's a clear shot.

When playing cops & robbers, make sure both the cops & the robbers have weapons.

Also, have a "safe place" for the toy guns, in case other visiting kids' parents don't approve.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

We're a gun-owning family and gun safety is our number one priority. DH cleans the guns on the kitchen table and DS (21 months) watches curiously from his high chair. As he cleans the guns, DH talks about them in very simplistic terms, modeled after the NRA's Eddie Eagle program. All children should learn these basic rules by a young age, IMHO. Even families that don't own guns may encounter families that do, or their children might find a gun at a friend's house, or in the woods, or whatever. Talking about gun safety is vital. Guns, once demystified, become objects that don't have that forbidden fruit allure and are just as "off-limits" as the chemicals under the sink or the power tools in the garage.

As DS (and our other children) get older, we'll instill in them the extreme importance of the Four Rules and insist that they demonstrate both understanding and respect of those rules before we allow them to handle a gun. Then we'll take them to the range and enroll them in shooting lessons and, once they've demonstrated basic marksmanship, they can begin to think about owning their own gun.

Guns for us are not toys, any more than a chainsaw or a power saw is a toy. They're extremely useful tools that, used unsafely, can kill human beings. So I don't think toy guns that aren't brightly colored neon water guns will ever be welcome in our home. I don't want to confuse our children and I don't want them to associate guns with careless play. Not that shooting isn't a fun sport! But like many other sports, it must be done with the proper equipment and only after taking the proper precautions.

The extremely excellent site, Cornered Cat, which is designed by a mother of five exclusively for women who own guns and/or want to know how to teach their children gun safety, has some great information about kids and guns. I highly recommend that all mamas read it, even if you never plan to own or handle a gun yourself. Not teaching your children the basic rules of gun safety just because you yourself do not own guns, seems to me to be as shortsighted as not teaching them to swim just because you don't own a pool or go to the beach. Guns are everywhere and knowing to

*Stop! Don't Touch! Leave the Area! Tell an Adult!*

could literally save a child's life.

One last comment and then I'll hop off my soapbox: I highly recommend that anyone who hates and/or fears guns take a basic gun safety course. The NRA, among other organizations, has courses designed just for women that are usually taught by female instructors and are very gentle and not at all macho or intimidating. You don't have to own a gun or shoot one regularly, but as an adult who may encounter a gun while out and about or in an acquaintance's home, you should have the ability to safely and responsibly handle a firearm well enough to neutralize it and put it out of reach of little hands. If you don't know what trigger discipline is, or don't have the aforementioned Four Rules committed to heart so well that you could recite them in your sleep, please consider learning at least the very basics of firearms safety. Knowledge is power.

(And who knows, you might just enjoy plinking at targets once in awhile. It really is fun! And one of the few sports in which women often surpass men.







)


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

Excellent post, *Peainthepod*!


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv-my-boys* 
I do have a problem with play "shooting" because for us guns are not considered a "toy" they are tool for hunting/sport/protection and irl shooting someone is a very serious legal/ethical/religous matter for our family so personally I dont feel comfortable with the boys pretending to shoot people.

Devil's advocating here, but chainsaws, spoons, sinks, and cars are all tools, but we allow children to play with toy versions of them. If every child who grew up with a play kitchen ended up burning their home down as adults because they put slippers in the oven as they did when they were kids, no one would be able to afford fire insurance.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *luv-my-boys* 
I also wanted to make sure that they know basic gun safety because although we are very careful we knwo that they may one day encounter them at someone elses house or child.

I think this is important for all kids, too. Good job!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

I was going to recommend this same site. http://corneredcat.com/Kids/firstlesson.aspx is really the best, most sensible, most effective take on gun safety for children that I've come across.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
The extremely excellent site, Cornered Cat, which is designed by a mother of five exclusively for women who own guns and/or want to know how to teach their children gun safety, has some great information about kids and guns. I highly recommend that all mamas read it, even if you never plan to own or handle a gun yourself. Not teaching your children the basic rules of gun safety just because you yourself do not own guns, seems to me to be as shortsighted as not teaching them to swim just because you don't own a pool or go to the beach. Guns are everywhere and knowing to

*Stop! Don't Touch! Leave the Area! Tell an Adult!*

could literally save a child's life.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Devil's advocating here, but chainsaws, spoons, sinks, and cars are all tools, but we allow children to play with toy versions of them.

Yes but they aren't tools with the sole intention of being used to killing.

InMediaRes, I have two boys (and two girls). We have no guns and actively discourage and/or prohibit gun play. Honestly it's never been an issue with my kids with the brief exception of a short time with a neighbourhood kid who was quite into guns - to the point that my boys were uncomfortable and just stopped playing with him.
We talk a lot about how play is how kids learn to "be" in the world and about whether it is a good idea to practise something in play that I would never want them to do in adulthood. I would intervene in play that could be racist, homophobic or sexist (not that my kids have ever done that) but it's the same principle to me as intervening in play that is warlike. It goes against our family values and I think it is important for my kids to see that the value of living peacefully applies to all areas of our lives. I personally don't buy the argument that gun play is an inevitability. I think it is cultural and I think it can be circumvented in a healthy way.

We also talk about how there is really only one outcome for gun play and how it is kind of boring. My boys do have swords but I find sword play is just more creative and less limited in outcome. We have talked about how there is honour and skill in being good at sword play (and their fencing teacher has reinforced this) and how that doesn't apply in the same way to gun play. They can slay dragons, or be Samuri or Jedi or knights, or magicians etc. They can still have their hero play and work out the whole "good evil" thing in ways that don't involve killing as the only and predetermined outcome.

I don't have tonnes of advice. I know this is a difficult issue to find your way through. However my instinct is that we should follow our instincts. If gun play bothers you at your core, I think it is okay to put tight restrictions on it and to talk talk talk to your kids about why you want to live those values. We talk about peace a lot in our family. I've taken my kids to peace demonstrations and marches, we've run a Kids for Peace program, and we read a lot of stories about it. I just could never see myself living/preaching one thing and letting my kids practise another. So far it has worked for us.

good luck
Karen


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
(And who knows, you might just enjoy plinking at targets once in awhile. It really is fun! And one of the few sports in which women often surpass men.







)

OT but this lady is awesome!

Great post, pea. Thanks for giving me so much to think about and read.

And when I said I hate guns, I meant I hate play guns and violent play. I do have some interest in learning to use a gun myself. I don't know if I want one in my home, but that wouldn't be a problem since my Dad would be happy to keep one for me.

Thanks for the info on the women's shooting class.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 
OT but this lady is awesome!

She's great! Speaking of YouTube videos, check out this lady! She's a proud babywearing AP mama and an avid shooter. I love her videos.










Quote:

Great post, pea. Thanks for giving me so much to think about and read.

And when I said I hate guns, I meant I hate play guns and violent play. I do have some interest in learning to use a gun myself. I don't know if I want one in my home, but that wouldn't be a problem since my Dad would be happy to keep one for me.

Thanks for the info on the women's shooting class.
I'm really, really glad to help. The more women--and especially mothers--who are willing to open their mind and learn about gun safety firsthand, the fewer gun-ignorant children we'll have running around treating guns like mystical objects that should be coveted and handled in secret. It's hard to argue against commonsense precautions like teaching little ones how to properly react to a found gun.









Also, shooting is FUN. And women tend to be at least as good at it as men, which is awesome to witness in person. My father-in-law is an avid trap shooter, and once confided in me that the reason so many private "old boys" shooting clubs exclude women (except for a few days a month) is they don't want to be shown up by their wives on the range.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Gun safety I am big on. Guns for toys, not so much.

I do feel that a _huge_ aspect of teaching gun safety is teaching that guns are not toys. You want to pretend to hunt for food? Fine, go a head. You want to pretend to shoot other people or animals for fun? You better believe I'd put a stop to that faster than you can say "bang".

If my kids develop a true interest in guns, they can learn about them through experienced and responsible adults who know and understand the importance of gun safety.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
She's great! Speaking of YouTube videos, check out this lady! She's a proud babywearing AP mama and an avid shooter. I love her videos.










She reminds me of Joan Cusack.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Yes but they aren't tools with the sole intention of being used to killing.

InMediaRes, I have two boys (and two girls). We have no guns and actively discourage and/or prohibit gun play. Honestly it's never been an issue with my kids with the brief exception of a short time with a neighbourhood kid who was quite into guns - to the point that my boys were uncomfortable and just stopped playing with him.
We talk a lot about how play is how kids learn to "be" in the world and about whether it is a good idea to practise something in play that I would never want them to do in adulthood. I would intervene in play that could be racist, homophobic or sexist (not that my kids have ever done that) but it's the same principle to me as intervening in play that is warlike. It goes against our family values and I think it is important for my kids to see that the value of living peacefully applies to all areas of our lives. I personally don't buy the argument that gun play is an inevitability. I think it is cultural and I think it can be circumvented in a healthy way.

We also talk about how there is really only one outcome for gun play and how it is kind of boring. My boys do have swords but I find sword play is just more creative and less limited in outcome. We have talked about how there is honour and skill in being good at sword play (and their fencing teacher has reinforced this) and how that doesn't apply in the same way to gun play. They can slay dragons, or be Samuri or Jedi or knights, or magicians etc. They can still have their hero play and work out the whole "good evil" thing in ways that don't involve killing as the only and predetermined outcome.

I don't have tonnes of advice. I know this is a difficult issue to find your way through. However my instinct is that we should follow our instincts. If gun play bothers you at your core, I think it is okay to put tight restrictions on it and to talk talk talk to your kids about why you want to live those values. We talk about peace a lot in our family. I've taken my kids to peace demonstrations and marches, we've run a Kids for Peace program, and we read a lot of stories about it. I just could never see myself living/preaching one thing and letting my kids practise another. So far it has worked for us.

good luck
Karen











This is how we feel about guns and gun play in our home. My four year old son still has no idea what a gun is... I keep waiting for the inevitable "gun play" that everyone tells me boys become obsessed with, but it's not even on his radar. He does, however, love a good sword fight.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
She reminds me of Joan Cusack.

She does have a bit of that going on, you're right.

I think this is my favorite video of hers:


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
She does have a bit of that going on, you're right.

I think this is my favorite video of hers: 



























I'll watch in a sec., I came back to thank you, I was looking at the rudy project website and I think I'm gonna check out their product in the store since I'm in the market for new sunglasses.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alyantavid* 
We don't have toy guns because guns are not toys. They're very real and since we do have them in the house, I don't want gun and toy associated.

DS1 knows that he can hunt when he's 12, so that's what we talk about. He has shot a gun a few times at targets and that's all he'll be allowed to do until he's 12ish. Even now at their ages (8 & 4), we talk about guns, what to do if you see one, safety, etc. It's never too early to start, imo.


I dont have a child that is old enough for this to be an issue for me, but I totally agree with this. Most of the people I know have at least one real gun. I hate to see kids with toy guns, especially the ones that look real, but just have a red tip.

I do think that young children being around guns while they are being cleaned, and even going to an outdoor range where safety is the biggest priority is totally appropriate. If every child who was pretending to shoot someone heard real gunshots once and awhile, I think they would have a better idea of how powerful and dangerous guns can be.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Play involving toy guns or pretend shooting is A-OK around here, though my son rarely plays with toy guns, he prefers his wooden swords, battle axe, etc. However, those are dangerous for play fighting, it's much safer for the kids to chase eachother around pretending to shoot a bow or a pistol.

I can understand not wanting to have toy guns in the house (especially if you keep real guns in the house--we do not), but I don't think it's a good idea to try to control a kid's pretend play. I think if kids want to pretend to shoot eachother, have at it. It's pretend and it's fun. BTW, the only place I've had anyone say anything to their kid about playing pretend involving fingers "shooting" with my kid (as in "No! No shooting! If you do that we're going home!") was in the U.S. It seemed kind of ironic.

And no, guns are not toys and murder is not a game. Fortunately my child doesn't play with guns or plot murders. He isn't interested in the military either, he says he wouldn't want to risk being killed or ever have to kill someone else.
ETA-- in case that last part offended any military families, I just want you to know we have a lot of respect for those who serve.


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## SubliminalDarkness (Sep 9, 2009)

We don't play with guns or weapons. I don't allow my kids to pretend other things are weapons. We don't even play with water guns.

As a family, we are opposed to personal gun ownership and hunting. Our kids can certainly form different opinions as the time comes, but for now, this is the value we teach.


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## Attached2Elijah (Jun 27, 2004)

I'll just say... yeah, what Peainthepod said







I have nothing to add to that but that is exactly how we feel









I lied, I do have something to add. I want my kids to learn how to use, clean, disarm a gun by a fairly young age (I'm thinking around 10-12) so that if/when they go to a friend's house and his/her parents own a gun and friend gets curious and goes to show my children said gun, they'll know what to do to make sure that no one gets hurt. He/she can say "That's nice, let me see it." Then takes the gun, disarms it and locks it back up because they have respect for the power it holds along with the knowledge of how to make sure neither child is hurt. We don't currently own any guns other then an old muzzle loader that hasn't worked in over 50+ years but my mother is an avid shooter and I have given her persmission to show my children as they get older all of the ins and outs of the guns and eventually take them shooting. My husband and I will also teach them bow and arrow shooting as well since we enjoy that.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
Play involving toy guns or pretend shooting is A-OK around here, though my son rarely plays with toy guns, he prefers his wooden swords, battle axe, etc. However, those are dangerous for play fighting, it's much safer for the kids to chase eachother around pretending to shoot a bow or a pistol.

I can understand not wanting to have toy guns in the house (especially if you keep real guns in the house--we do not), but I don't think it's a good idea to try to control a kid's pretend play. I think if kids want to pretend to shoot eachother, have at it. It's pretend and it's fun. BTW, the only place I've had anyone say anything to their kid about playing pretend involving fingers "shooting" with my kid (as in "No! No shooting! If you do that we're going home!") was in the U.S. It seemed kind of ironic.

And no, guns are not toys and murder is not a game. Fortunately my child doesn't play with guns or plot murders. He isn't interested in the military either, he says he wouldn't want to risk being killed or ever have to kill someone else.
ETA-- in case that last part offended any military families, I just want you to know we have a lot of respect for those who serve.

I'm curious - and I am not being snarky - I am genuinely curious about the idea that because gun play is pretend and fun it's okay. Would you let your kids play house and have the Dad play hit the mum because dinner was late? Or let them play school and not intervene if they had one kid being black and being treated differently?


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I'm curious - and I am not being snarky - I am genuinely curious about the idea that because gun play is pretend and fun it's okay. Would you let your kids play house and have the Dad play hit the mum because dinner was late? Or let them play school and not intervene if they had one kid being black and being treated differently?


I saw on your previous post that you do allow sword play. Sword play involves violence and yes, even killing. So do you let your kids do the above, also? Of course not.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
I saw on your previous post that you do allow sword play. Sword play involves violence and yes, even killing. So do you let your kids do the above, also? Of course not.

My kids sword play actually very rarely involves violence or killing. Epic dance-battles a la fencing and lots of spinning it around like Samuri but no pretend killing or injuries. Sometimes some dragon slaying - but of course they are magical and come back to life immediately.....
I wasn't being snarky. I just wonder at the distinction between allowing kids to "play kill" versus "play demean" for lack of a better term from someone who says that gun play is fine because it is pretend. Why is one okay and the other not (assuming that is the case)?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

We have a couple of very fake looking squirt guns kids like to run around and squirt each other with on hot days. And I've seen puzzle pieces and fingers and things used as guns. We don't buy play guns other than the squirt guns, though we do have a light saber.

I'm not bothered by pretend violent play. The kids seem to use the squirt guns as things to squirt water with rather than as guns when they play. (like "HA you're all wet!" rather than "bang bang!") It's fingers that get used as guns most.

Here's an article from Mothering I like about this issue: http://mothering.com/parenting/bang-bang-youre-dead


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I'm curious - and I am not being snarky - I am genuinely curious about the idea that because gun play is pretend and fun it's okay. Would you let your kids play house and have the Dad play hit the mum because dinner was late? Or let them play school and not intervene if they had one kid being black and being treated differently?

I'm not answering such a ridiculous question.

If you think you are doing your kids and society a favor by not allowing pretend gun play then you should do that. If you think parents who allow it are doing their kids and society a disservice, then I think that is an extreme stance and have no interest in arguing it with you.

Eta: reading your post again reminded me of two kids i saw playing house in a little play structure at the playground once. They had nine babies and the boy was told to watch them while the girl went out. A few seconds later the boy was running around and she said "hey you're supposed to be watching the babies" and he replied "oh, well, the babies are dead so I can run around with you out here". It sounds awful to adult ears but was innocent play.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
I'm not answering such a ridiculous question.

If you think you are doing your kids and society a favor by not allowing pretend gun play then you should do that. If you think parents who allow it are doing their kids and society a disservice, then I think that is an extreme stance and have no interest in arguing it with you.

I'm sorry you are offended but I disagree that it is a ridiculous question.
I am genuinely curious as to why one kind of play is considered okay and another is not and why parents make that distinction. Is it strictly cultural? And if so does that mean that the premise in articles like the one linked above that weapon play is essentially human nature is flawed? Why is it okay that children work through one kind of violence and power play through games like gun play but that we don't allow them to work through violence and power play of other sorts in their games? Is the issue that we as a culture have decided one kind of violence is okay and the other is not? How did we make that shift? And if we as a culture can say that certain types of violence are not okay in play then is there not value in the discussion to perhaps make a shift away froma gun culture as well?

And btw I never said that parents who allow gun play are doing society a disservice. I said gun play doesn't fit with my values, and the values I want to teach my kids.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Okay, I'll go ahead and go into detail with the whole "if you allow gun play, do you allow pretend spousal abuse?" thing.

I don't micromanage my kids' play. They play with guns sometimes, swords others. Mostly they play other types of things. I have never shown them "this is how you play with guns, this is how you play with swords, this is how you play house". So pretend spousal abuse isn't an issue. My kids are naturally inclined toward pretend play that involves a certain level of violence. Mostly where they team up against an invisible "bad guy/force/monster". They have not been naturally inclined toward pretending to beat a spouse for having the pretend dinner late. They also are not naturally inclined toward re-enacting racist scenarios. So it simply isn't an issue. You can say "Well what if they DID?", but it's a what-if that is simply ridiculous.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
Okay, I'll go ahead and go into detail with the whole "if you allow gun play, do you allow pretend spousal abuse?" thing.

I don't micromanage my kids' play. They play with guns sometimes, swords others. Mostly they play other types of things. I have never shown them "this is how you play with guns, this is how you play with swords, this is how you play house". So pretend spousal abuse isn't an issue. My kids are naturally inclined toward pretend play that involves a certain level of violence. Mostly where they team up against an invisible "bad guy/force/monster". They have not been naturally inclined toward pretending to beat a spouse for having the pretend dinner late. They also are not naturally inclined toward re-enacting racist scenarios. So it simply isn't an issue. You can say "Well what if they DID?", but it's a what-if that is simply ridiculous.

My question is if you (general you) would stop one, why would you not stop the other.
Why do we think children are "naturally" inclined towards one kind of violence in play and not the other? Perhaps it's cultural and rather than innate, in which case I think it is valuable to discuss whether it is something we may want to change in our culture.
We can disagree on the value of gun play but I don't think it's a ridiculous question. I'm interested in a genuine conversation. I could do without the condescending attitude though.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I'm curious - and I am not being snarky - I am genuinely curious about the idea that because gun play is pretend and fun it's okay. Would you let your kids play house and have the Dad play hit the mum because dinner was late? Or let them play school and not intervene if they had one kid being black and being treated differently?

Kids, even the most gently raised kids, play WEIRD THINGS.

This past weekend we were at a friend's house, and their two little girls (5 and 3) played in the most embarrassing, hilarious way. There was a lot of "Nooooo! Don't beat me and lock me in a closet!" and "You're punished! Go eat all the frog eyeballs!" The oldest girl was WAY big into abandonment and depervation- "Please, Mommy (to the pretend-mommy), please can't I just have 1 kitty? You took all my kitties and threw them in the trash! I just want one little kitty!" (She was so cute.)

I promise you these children have never been forced to eat eyeballs or sit in a closet and they aren't being deprived of a thing- kids just play weird. Play is how they make sense of the world. Play is how they express themselves. Play is extremely important, but I think we get stuck on play = modeling known behavior/ practicing future behavior.

Nurtureshock has some really awesome stuff about play. For example, when kids play house, they're not pretending to be their own mom and dad- they're pretending to be a generic, very gender-role-stereotyped version of parents, regardless of what they see at home.

My own mom was VERY AP, anti-tv, and anti-gun, but we have a home movie of when I was about 5, shooting a Lego "gun" I'd made.

"Erin, no guns. You know that."
"Mom, it's not a gun! It's a fairy dust thrower! I'm killing you with fairy dust!"

Kids are weird, and do weird things, regardless of what's been modeled or the ideals we'd like to instill in them.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
My question is if you (general you) would stop one, why would you not stop the other.
Why do we think children are "naturally" inclined towards one kind of violence in play and not the other? Perhaps it's cultural and rather than innate, in which case I think it is valuable to discuss whether it is something we may want to change in our culture.
We can disagree on the value of gun play but I don't think it's a ridiculous question. I'm interested in a genuine conversation. I could do without the condescending attitude though.

It's not cultural, otherwise little boys wouldn't need to be drugged and brainwashed into becoming boy soldiers. Kids know the difference between play and real life.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I'm curious - and I am not being snarky - I am genuinely curious about the idea that because gun play is pretend and fun it's okay. Would you let your kids play house and have the Dad play hit the mum because dinner was late? Or let them play school and not intervene if they had one kid being black and being treated differently?

It seems a little strange to me to forbid any kind of pretending. So, yeah, I think I would let my kids play games like those, as long as everyone seemed to be enjoying the game. Would you tell your kids they couldn't read books that talked about domestic violence or segregation? Would you tell them they couldn't imagine what it might have been like to be a slave or a slave owner, or to hit another person? If they can explore those ideas by reading or thinking about them, why can't they explore them by acting them out?

Now, if the way my kids were playing made me think they didn't really understand the wrongness of hitting your spouse or treating black people differently, I'd certainly talk to them about that. And I'd certainly warn them to be careful about playing games that might upset other people. But I doubt I would outright forbid any pretend game. I think you can let your kids _play_ at doing something you feel is wrong and still have them understand that it _is_ wrong.

I think it's even harder to make a case for forbidding shooting games. Guns and fighting are so common in books and movies and on TV, and kids are exposed to so many examples of "good guys" using guns or gun-like weapons for what are presented as good causes - Star Wars, the Revolutionary war, policemen who carry guns to protect us from bad guys. Of course kids get interested in the idea of fighting and shooting, and of course they want to act it out.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
My question is if you (general you) would stop one, why would you not stop the other.
Why do we think children are "naturally" inclined towards one kind of violence in play and not the other? Perhaps it's cultural and rather than innate, in which case I think it is valuable to discuss whether it is something we may want to change in our culture.
We can disagree on the value of gun play but I don't think it's a ridiculous question. I'm interested in a genuine conversation. I could do without the condescending attitude though.

So could I. My kids have pretended to hit each other. I don't stop it. I might admonish them to make sure they don't accidentally hit the person, rather than just pretending to. The scenario of "my dinner is late so I'm going to beat the crap out of you" thing has never come up. Really. So it's pretty far off my radar of hypothetical situations that I'd stop my children from doing.

My dd has a wowee alive panda that cries and drinks and sleeps... Last night she was taking care of the panda. After about 30 minutes or so of carrying the panda around, playing with it, and feeding it, the panda "falls asleep". The panda woke up after about one minute. LOL My dd picks up the panda and starts shaking it. Not maliciously, but playfully. I didn't stop her to warn her of the dangers of shaken baby syndrome. I didn't say anything. She's playing.

I do intervene with my kids if I see any sort of bad intent, or see something veering into bad intent. My kids know that if meanness starts to happen, then they might get separated and play individually for a bit. That happens with ANY sort of play, be it gun, sword, ball, or block play.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

OP here.

Lots to think about. I personally have bad vibe type feelngs about playing guns, but I still don't think I want to jump to outright forbidding it. I'm in the "pretend play is to work things out" camp. My son is a particularly aggressive kid, and this is not a new theme for him, just has new tools. I have thought about outright forbidding it, but I'm trying to sort out my own feelings from what's appropriate and necessary for him. And I would love some ideas to keep things more calm and/or redirect this obsession to some other sort of play.

And as far as playing "spousal abuse", I don't think the two are the same. Playing guns is using modern tools to explore the universal problem of curbing one's aggression (which all people have in some form another), whereas spousal abuse is based on demeaning women, which is socially constructed. That's how I see it anyway.

I read once on the GD board that imagining oneself doing whatever violent thing you felt like doing when your kid drives you crazy was a good way to diffuse anger and rage for some moms. I don't really think this is a whole lot different.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

We have a similar situation. DS is 3 1/2. He's recently been introduced to guns by the older neighbour kids who have nerf guns. I have to say, it bothers me a lot less than I thought it would. The neighbour kids don't have violent words or body language. They follow rules and are respectful. If they were using a lot of violent imagery I think it would bother me a lot more.

So how I feel about it at the moment is that i won't buy him a gun but he can borrow the neighbours. I don't make a big deal about it or tell him I disapprove. I do tell him he has to follow 'the rules' as told to him by the neighbour boys (no aiming at the face, no shooting at people who aren't playing 'especially mums!')

My boy is high energy but not physical or aggressive. He doesn't even get that he could hit people with the nerf bullets. He just loves the mechanics of it.


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
A few seconds later the boy was running around and she said "hey you're supposed to be watching the babies" and he replied "oh, well, the babies are dead so I can run around with you out here".

Oh my gosh, I just choked on my tea! That is so funny in a horrifying kind of way. Kids!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
We talk a lot about how play is how kids learn to "be" in the world and about whether it is a good idea to practise something in play that I would never want them to do in adulthood.

That's a really broad spectrum of things, though. My kids play all KINDS of things that I would never want them to do in adulthood. I mean....I won't even get started, we'd be here all day.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
We also talk about how there is really only one outcome for gun play and how it is kind of boring. My boys do have swords but I find sword play is just more creative and less limited in outcome. We have talked about how there is honour and skill in being good at sword play (and their fencing teacher has reinforced this) and how that doesn't apply in the same way to gun play.

I think it's interesting that you see gun play as so linear, because that's not been my experience watching children engage in it. There's certainly as much skill and responsibility involved in learning to use real guns as there is in fencing, and just as much possibility for creativity with pretend guns as with pretend swords. (fairy dust guns, magic pew pew that turns you into animals, shrink rays, freeze rays, etc. etc. etc.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
My kids sword play actually very rarely involves violence or killing. Epic dance-battles a la fencing and lots of spinning it around like Samuri but no pretend killing or injuries. Sometimes some dragon slaying - but of course they are magical and come back to life immediately.....

My kids' sword play more often involves pretend killing and injury than their gun play, honestly. It certainly involves more *actual* injury (hey, even foam swords can hurt!)

I find this distinction between swords and guns as acceptable/unacceptable to be a bit baffling. Swords are actually even *more* specifically tools of violence and murder then guns. You can't go out and hunt food for your family with a sword. It's a brutal weapon created to hack into someone and maim them or cause them to bleed to death. I guess because they're not currently used for that purpose, it's easier to maintain the mental separation between fantasy and reality, but I doubt it's because the fantasy is actually any cleaner or more noble than that involved with guns.

The fantasy vs. reality element is why we don't, and won't, own any toy guns (other than ridiculous looking water squirters), but toy guns are separate in my mind than gun play.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Sometimes some dragon slaying - but of course they are magical and come back to life immediately.....

I allow both gun play and sword play, and I don't get the distinction you're making here at all. When ds1 and my nephew used to play - both swords and guns - they were usually "killing" monsters...not necessarily dragons, but some kind of monster. If they were "shooting" at each other, it was generally because one of them was pretending to be the "monster". Anybody they "killed" could come back to life again, whether the "death" was by shooting or by stabbing/cutting with a sword. The only difference I ever saw between the two kinds of play was that, occasionally, someone actually got hurt when they played swords, which never happened when they played guns.

re: the scenario of pretending/playing domestic violence or racial discrimination. I can't really be sure how I'd react to that, as I've never seen it happen. But, I think I'd simply let them play, but pay closer attention than I usually would to what was going on. I'd be very curious, and possibly a little concerned (depending on exactly what was being said/done) about where they even got those ideas. Issues of strength, power, control, good, bad, fear, self-protection, safety, security, etc. are all things I think crop up very naturally in pretend play. Issues of beating up someone you love for not having dinner on the table, or treating a darker-skinned child as being inferior do not come up naturally, imo and ime. So, those themes would cause me a bit of concern...but I wouldn't necessarily stop it. I'd definitely want to figure out what it was they were trying to work through, and where they got the notion in the first place. But, this is all hypothetical, because I've never seen these themes come up in play - not as a child myself, and not with any of I don't really know for sure how I'd handle it


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
That's a really broad spectrum of things, though. My kids play all KINDS of things that I would never want them to do in adulthood. I mean....I won't even get started, we'd be here all day.









I agree. One of the first that comes to mind is car crashes. DS2 slams Hot Wheel type cars together in "crashes" all the time.

Quote:

I think it's interesting that you see gun play as so linear, because that's not been my experience watching children engage in it. There's certainly as much skill and responsibility involved in learning to use real guns as there is in fencing, and just as much possibility for creativity with pretend guns as with pretend swords. (fairy dust guns, magic pew pew that turns you into animals, shrink rays, freeze rays, etc. etc. etc.)

My kids' sword play more often involves pretend killing and injury than their gun play, honestly. It certainly involves more *actual* injury (hey, even foam swords can hurt!)
This is all pretty much my experience, too.

Quote:

I find this distinction between swords and guns as acceptable/unacceptable to be a bit baffling. Swords are actually even *more* specifically tools of violence and murder then guns. You can't go out and hunt food for your family with a sword. It's a brutal weapon created to hack into someone and maim them or cause them to bleed to death. I guess because they're not currently used for that purpose, it's easier to maintain the mental separation between fantasy and reality, but I doubt it's because the fantasy is actually any cleaner or more noble than that involved with guns.
I've been thinking the same thing.

DS1 happens to love swords and just got his first "real" one (a birthday present from his dad). It's actually a decorative sword, and not a _real_ sword, but it could definitely be used a weapon in a pinch (ie. it wouldn't last 10 seconds against a quality sword, but it could hurt, or even kill, someone). Finances permitting, I expect he'll own a few dozen, or even a hundred, before he's through.

He's expected to follow safety rules, and if his younger siblings ever manage to so much as _see_ it, except under strict supervision, it will be confiscated, and removed from the house. (He can have it back when he moves out.) It's a weapon. It's dangerous. It's not a toy. DS1's interest in them is mostly aesthetic, from a collector standpoint, but that doesn't change the fact that swords are tools meant to kill people, and nothing else. That's their sole reason to exist - to kill people. I don't worry about that, with respect to ds1's interest in swords, swordfighting, fencing, etc. (he hasn't learned yet, but wants to study fencing and swordfighting). He doesn't want to, and isn't going to, hurt or kill anyone.

I probably wouldn't let ds1 have a real gun in the house. The only reasons I differentiate between a gun and a sword in this respect are:

1) He can't legally have a gun, and
2) A gun is small enough that one of his siblings could, conceivably, find it and shoot it and/or hide it without me or ds1 realizing it was missing. If he were fool enough to leave it loaded, they could also kill someone with one. They couldn't get his sword without our knowledge, and if they could, neither one of them has the strength/mass to actually _use_ it.

Guns have a real life use (hunting) other than killing people. Swords don't. (I realize they both have an adult use that isn't killing - fencing, range shooting, etc - and both are collectibles. I'm talking about their original functions.)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

I said gun play doesn't fit with my values, and the values I want to teach my kids.
I had an aunt that felt this way.

Her kids all grew up and without exception are working with guns as a PROFESSION. (Military, military contractor, hunting teacher.)

So much for that.







We laugh to think of how she wanted to engineer them and how it turned out all wrong.

Quote:

I find this distinction between swords and guns as acceptable/unacceptable to be a bit baffling. Swords are actually even *more* specifically tools of violence and murder then guns. You can't go out and hunt food for your family with a sword. It's a brutal weapon created to hack into someone and maim them or cause them to bleed to death. I guess because they're not currently used for that purpose, it's easier to maintain the mental separation between fantasy and reality, but I doubt it's because the fantasy is actually any cleaner or more noble than that involved with guns.
No, it's because fencing is a sport. There are a number of sports that evolved from being violent, life-or-death games, into benign games of skill. So perhaps that's where this is coming from?

I don't think "original function" is relevant because guns were originally designed for war, as were swords. I mean... they're weapons.

I will let my girls play hunting, I will let them play fencing, I will let them play doctor with medicine.

I will not let them play robbers, pirates who kill, or evil queen that poisons. Or rather... I would use such play as a teachable moment and request that they reflect on the nature of what they are doing.

When other kids "shoot" at me, I tell them I have an invisible, God-powered forcefield and they can't hit me, and that I put one on my baby, too. The looks on their faces are priceless!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
That's a really broad spectrum of things, though. My kids play all KINDS of things that I would never want them to do in adulthood. I mean....I won't even get started, we'd be here all day.









I think it's interesting that you see gun play as so linear, because that's not been my experience watching children engage in it. There's certainly as much skill and responsibility involved in learning to use real guns as there is in fencing, and just as much possibility for creativity with pretend guns as with pretend swords. (fairy dust guns, magic pew pew that turns you into animals, shrink rays, freeze rays, etc. etc. etc.)

My kids' sword play more often involves pretend killing and injury than their gun play, honestly. It certainly involves more *actual* injury (hey, even foam swords can hurt!)

I find this distinction between swords and guns as acceptable/unacceptable to be a bit baffling. Swords are actually even *more* specifically tools of violence and murder then guns. You can't go out and hunt food for your family with a sword. It's a brutal weapon created to hack into someone and maim them or cause them to bleed to death. I guess because they're not currently used for that purpose, it's easier to maintain the mental separation between fantasy and reality, but I doubt it's because the fantasy is actually any cleaner or more noble than that involved with guns.

The fantasy vs. reality element is why we don't, and won't, own any toy guns (other than ridiculous looking water squirters), but toy guns are separate in my mind than gun play.

I agree with all this. I said earlier we have swords and not guns and I think we are a bit weird in having maintained that distinction (mind you my son also hasn't asked for a gun aside from a water gun).

On the topic of swords as weapons...I have a real sword (what's called a functional reproduction) - sharpened and everything with decent balance; I have to keep it locked up - and it is definitely a weapon and pretty single-purpose although I did hack some dead grass down with it once. It was really inefficient at that job.







I'd hate to have to catch dinner with it.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Good point about swords. I suppose I romanticise swords because they have a lot of basis in literature, etc., and sword fighting well was historically a sign of skill and achievement, whereas guns typically have the killing and war background in our culture and....not much else.

But you're right. The point of swords is to kill people. Or dragons, or whatever. That's certainly what they're used for in our house.

And DS's sword has an "unkill" button. His own invention.

And Storm Bride, the difference with the car crash scenario is that at some point, my son did have an obsession with car crashes and would throw these raging tantrums in the car because I told him I was not going to get us in a real car crash. He's a destructive kid, which is why this topic bothers me with him. Like I said, it's a long standing theme, just new tools. I had a thread in preschoolers about it but didn't get much response.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
We don't have guns and we don't spend time in the homes of people who have guns, period. We talk a lot about why that is the case.

We don't buy guns, with the exception of supersoaker types, where getting wet is the point, and everyone has to want to join in or we don't use them.

If kids chose to form guns out of their fingers or sticks or whatever, while we don't encourage it, we don't forbid it.

Do you ask them if they own guns before you enter their home?







Just kidding. That's interesting to me though, I guess I've never heard such a strong stance on it. What is your reasoning if you don't mind me asking?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

guns typically have the killing and war background in our culture and....not much else.
Which culture are you referring to?

I'm from out west. While I know a couple of people who own guns for "self-defense" (I know, I know, don't bother), nearly every family has one for hunting. People get about 10% of their meat from their own hunting even if they don't hunt often. Some families get 100% of their meat from what they hunt.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 
And Storm Bride, the difference with the car crash scenario is that at some point, my son did have an obsession with car crashes and would throw these raging tantrums in the car because I told him I was not going to get us in a real car crash. He's a destructive kid, which is why this topic bothers me with him. Like I said, it's a long standing theme, just new tools. I had a thread in preschoolers about it but didn't get much response.

DS2 is actually a pretty destructive kid, too. He's had raging tantrums, and he's also asked me to crash our car (although he hasn't, to the best of my recollection, had any raging tantrums over that, specifically). It doesn't bother me - the crash thing, I mean. He has no real understanding of what a car crash means, how badly we'd be hurt (or that we could be killed), etc. That kind of thing is _starting_ to register with him, but it's been a slow process. When he asked me to crash the car, and argued with me about it, he had no idea of what he was actually asking. Through my adult filters, asking me to inflict severe injury/death on himself, his siblings and me is horrifying. Heck - asking me to cause that kind of property damage is horrifying, even without the injury/death aspect. But, he really isn't asking me to do that, because he doesn't have my filters. He just wants a _big_ crash. (This is the same little boy who has gone to hide, crying, on the stairs after accidentally making his baby sister cry by hugging her too hard.) These things don't mean the same thing to a small child that they mean to us.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

We own a gun, but we don't have any play guns. NOt because I'm opposed to them, I have all girls and none have ever shown an interest in having a play gun. Dd1 has a bb gun, though. Sometimes they play with toy guns at other people's homes, and my only rule is don't "shoot" at people who don't want to be shot at.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else... but here goes 

We have guns. Several. I honestly couldn't tell you how many, exactly... probably 7-10, a couple of those being just bb guns. I don't remember the first time I shot a gun, so was obviously pretty young. I do remember being 'given' my first gun (well, OK, it was my & my brothers both...) when I was like 4 or 5 and my mom being absolutely appalled







. But, we live out in the country, and my dad and my grandpa and dh all hunt, and I used to (though I never did shoot anything... I had bad luck, obviously...), and fully expect ds1 to want to go out w/ dad/grandpa/great grandpa this winter and sit for a little while with them - its what I did for years till I was big enough to actually hunt w/ a gun myself (~11 or 12, after taking hunter safety course).

So. All that said... ds1 doesn't have a toy gun (other than water guns), but everythign else has certainly become a gun, mostly lots of sticks, and I really don't see the point in attempting to limit it. Seems really counter productive and kind of a pointless never ending battle.







and as someone else noted, we let kids play with other stuff that are 'real' - toy ovens, toy spatulas toy knives and swords and spoons and lawn mowers and chain saws and... well, you get the point. And some of them can be used to kill/hurt/maim people as well (and to those that say 'but thats not their only point!' meh, chainsaws are used more-or-less exclusively to kill/maim trees, swords are (or were) only really used to kill people, axes I spose have a dual purpose - kill trees or kill people, but still... and guns dont *have* to be used to kill things - many people shoot them more-or-less exclusively as target practice on skeets and paper targets).


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

I just thought of something else that might be food for thought.

In our family, the basic human right to self-defense is sacred. Firearms can be used in self-defense as well as for hunting or sports shooting, so for us, they are indeed a tool that can be _intentionally_ used to kill someone who poses a deadly threat. We feel it's just as important to acknowledge this aspect of gun ownership as it is to emphasize their other uses and reasons for ownership. Defensive lethal force carries with it many heavy responsibilities, legal and moral, and we want to emphasize to our children, over and over and over again, that a gun should only be used to harm another human being if one's life is truly in danger.

I guess I could hypocritically pretend that we only own guns for hunting and sports shooting--and those are indeed our main uses for them--but it isn't entirely true. In the interest of full disclosure, we believe in the right to self-defense and we're prepared to defend ourselves if someone is foolish enough to attack our family. I realize not all families share that value, but it's one we hold dear (as do most of the gun-owning families we know) and plan to pass down to our children. So for us, pretend gun play that involved killing "bad guys" or monsters or whatever would not be a problem, because that is in fact one very solid reason to own guns in the first place.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
Do you ask them if they own guns before you enter their home?







Just kidding. That's interesting to me though, I guess I've never heard such a strong stance on it. What is your reasoning if you don't mind me asking?

Occasionally, yes. But usually I know the people pretty well before we are in their homes and I know what their values are.

I think personal gun ownership is one of the single worst things about the US, with no redeeming value. Guns are for killing. We don't kill and we don't want our kids around people who would have guns in their homes. We don't live in an area where anyone needs to hunt, nor are there good places to hunt that aren't dangerously close to people, so the hunting argument is irrelevant to me.

I have two relatives who were killed via guns, guns that were supposedly stored safely, and owned by people who were NRA certified, blah, blah, blah. One of these relatives was a small child, killed by accident on Christmas day. The parents of the person who killed the child would have spouted exactly the same pro-gun, safe gun, stuff I've read here.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
In our family, the basic human right to self-defense is sacred. Firearms can be used in self-defense as well as for hunting or sports shooting, so for us, they are indeed a tool that can be _intentionally_ used to kill someone who poses a deadly threat. We feel it's just as important to acknowledge this aspect of gun ownership as it is to emphasize their other uses and reasons for ownership. Defensive lethal force carries with it many heavy responsibilities, legal and moral, and we want to emphasize to our children, over and over and over again, that a gun should only be used to harm another human being if one's life is truly in danger.

I guess I could hypocritically pretend that we only own guns for hunting and sports shooting--and those are indeed our main uses for them--but it isn't entirely true. In the interest of full disclosure, we believe in the right to self-defense and we're prepared to defend ourselves if someone is foolish enough to attack our family. I realize not all families share that value, but it's one we hold dear (as do most of the gun-owning families we know) and plan to pass down to our children. So for us, pretend gun play that involved killing "bad guys" or monsters or whatever would not be a problem, because that is in fact one very solid reason to own guns in the first place.









We own a .45, it's not for hunting. It's for defense.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Perhaps it's cultural and rather than innate, in which case I think it is valuable to discuss whether it is something we may want to change in our culture.

I think this is an interesting, and valid question. We used to live in Germany and we had many German friends with boys in the toddler - young child age that played with dd a lot. It was once brought up that the boys, in general, don't engage in gun play, even the American/other country expat boys living there. Guns are not part of pop culture there (for example, it's not part of TV shows), so at a young age a child has no knowledge that guns exist and is not going to, of his own accord, conceive of the concept of "firearm" and make-believe with it.

FTR - we are a no-weapons household, including toy versions, but my father is a life-long NRA member so I was not raised that way. Dd has never asked about nor pretended to play guns, but I would, in fact, intervene and forbid the game of killing if it happened.


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

Personally, I'm very very anti-gun. We don't own any toy guns. However, my ds does point his fingers like a gun and pretend to play "bad guys" with his friends and occasionally his sister. I have the same rule as some of the PPs- don't shoot anyone who doesn't want to be shot.

I know my ds has never seen anything more violent than the original Superman movie from 1977 so I don't even think he knows that real guns shoot bullets or what would happen with those. I overhear them playing saying the guns are freeze guns or shooting firebombs or whatever. And it's usually all the kids against invisible bad guys.

Though it does make me squirm a little I understand that he's just play acting, I remember my brothers doing it when they were young and they are not violent people at all. Nor do I think it's any more real acting than my dd carrying her dolls around by their hair. Pretty sure that won't carry over to adulthood.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 

We have guns. Several. I honestly couldn't tell you how many, exactly... probably 7-10, a couple of those being just bb guns.

I am really hoping, though it's probably not true judging from the rest of your post, that these "probably 7-10" guns are toys.

When you can't tell how many you have, how are you supposed to tell when one goes missing? The idea that someone has several guns in the house, but doesn't know how many they actually have is just frightening.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

*peainthepod*, thank you for the great links and helpful advice.
We are not a gun family either but we live in a big hunting state and this being America, I know that my son will be exposed to the gun culture one way or another. So with that in mind, I would like my son to really be gun aware and gun educated.
So far the only thing that I have told him to do when he sees a gun is to stop, don't touch and tell an adult. I ask him to do this with all types of guns, whether they look like toys or not.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I'm sorry you are offended but I disagree that it is a ridiculous question.
I am genuinely curious as to why one kind of play is considered okay and another is not and why parents make that distinction.

I wasn't offended, I was just having a WTF? moment from reading your question. I'm glad some others answered it though. And I don't "make that distinction", which is why I didn't care for the question. My son (9 y/o) has played plenty of pretend shooting games, whether pretending to shoot a gun or bow, has had a million pretend sword fights to the death (and took a bit of fencing), has pretend pulled a pretend pin out of a pretend grenade with his teeth, but never, ever have those other play scenarios ever come up. Have they come up with any of your kids?

So it's not like I'm saying one is OK while the other isn't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
Okay, I'll go ahead and go into detail with the whole "if you allow gun play, do you allow pretend spousal abuse?" thing.

I don't micromanage my kids' play. They play with guns sometimes, swords others. Mostly they play other types of things. I have never shown them "this is how you play with guns, this is how you play with swords, this is how you play house". So pretend spousal abuse isn't an issue. My kids are naturally inclined toward pretend play that involves a certain level of violence. Mostly where they team up against an invisible "bad guy/force/monster". They have not been naturally inclined toward pretending to beat a spouse for having the pretend dinner late. They also are not naturally inclined toward re-enacting racist scenarios. So it simply isn't an issue. You can say "Well what if they DID?", but it's a what-if that is simply ridiculous.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
*peainthepod*, thank you for the great links and helpful advice.
We are not a gun family either but we live in a big hunting state and this being America, I know that my son will be exposed to the gun culture one way or another. So with that in mind, I would like my son to really be gun aware and gun educated.
So far the only thing that I have told him to do when he sees a gun is to stop, don't touch and tell an adult. I ask him to do this with all types of guns, whether they look like toys or not.

Happy to help, mama.







And IMHO that's the best advice any parent can give to a child regarding guns. The place to fire a gun is in a controlled setting (firing range), with the right protective equipment, and with the proper precautions in place. Even children who are safe and experienced shooters shouldn't be encouraged to handle found guns without first telling a responsible adult.

I believe the current estimate is that nearly 50% of American households own at least one firearm. Whatever your feelings about private gun ownership, guns are here to stay and teaching children basic gun safety can only help protect them from unnecessary tragedies.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

While we're talking culture, and how swords are cultured and guns are not, let's be open about the sword culture, shall we?

Nobility or at the very least upper class people were the ones that had swords. Or those who were in service to the above. So if you're going to get persnickety, you also should be honest about the fact that they were not only weapons, but part of a whole culture of the elite that regularly preyed upon those "lesser" and thought nothing of it. And samurai were killing machines. I guess we in the west might pretty it up a bit, with the noble warrior bit--but even the samurai themselves acknowledged that fact (and attempted noble warriordom). To be samurai was to serve your (wealthy, noble) master absolutely, and to commit suicide if you ever failed or if you displeased him and he asked it of you.

Yes, with the advent of "cultured" sport fencing has become a sport for the masses (sort of) but it's fairly recent that the rabble (like women) were even allowed to compete internationally on certain weapons, ect. And let's not forget, target shooting is an olympic (and national) sport that IMO gets just as much press and popular attention as fencing (i.e. Not Much).

To me, knights and samurai are frankly not very romantic. They are about as romantic in practice as a wild west vigilante mob. In real life, there was nothing much pretty about any of them. But for play purposes, which are based on fantasy, folktale, and cleaned up stereotypes, playing ninja/samurai/knight/swashbuckler/pirate/wild west sherriff, ect. are great fun--and would be very Not Fun if people played them with full knowledge of reality. IMO.

If your kids play pirate with a sword, do you explain to them that real pirates kill often kill everyone on the ship to take it in, kidnap people for ransom, often rape the female passengers/crew, and were historically used to commit terrorist acts against other countries' ships and crew as well as civilians and native people? I sure as hell hope not. There is a time and place to discuss real history too, but I don't think a kid who's playing needs an adult lecture about history and the adult's projection of their own knowledge into the child's play.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Leaning your way, as always, Tigerchild. Thanks so much for the input.

In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, most kids do not play "hunting". My son plays it because we have talked about it, and he also plays skeet shooting (I throw a ball for him to aim at) and wears pretend safety glasses and ear muffs. Most kids who I've seen play guns are playing shooting each other.

It icks me out, but I think I'm leaning towards not forbidding pretend play between consenting parties. I suppose my other option is to move to Antarctica where there are no guns, but this seems like an unlikely (and cold) possibility. Don't think we'll be having any toy guns though.

I'm open to more input if anyone has any to offer.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I live in Texas. Most people have guns here I think. I have never asked but have wanted to. In reality, you just need to decide if you can trust the family. A gun in the house is less dangerous than a pool in the backyard. Sad, but true.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Kids, even the most gently raised kids, play WEIRD THINGS.

This past weekend we were at a friend's house, and their two little girls (5 and 3) played in the most embarrassing, hilarious way. There was a lot of "Nooooo! Don't beat me and lock me in a closet!" and "You're punished! Go eat all the frog eyeballs!" The oldest girl was WAY big into abandonment and depervation- "Please, Mommy (to the pretend-mommy), please can't I just have 1 kitty? You took all my kitties and threw them in the trash! I just want one little kitty!" (She was so cute.)

I promise you these children have never been forced to eat eyeballs or sit in a closet and they aren't being deprived of a thing- kids just play weird. Play is how they make sense of the world. Play is how they express themselves. Play is extremely important, but I think we get stuck on play = modeling known behavior/ practicing future behavior.

Nurtureshock has some really awesome stuff about play. For example, when kids play house, they're not pretending to be their own mom and dad- they're pretending to be a generic, very gender-role-stereotyped version of parents, regardless of what they see at home.

My own mom was VERY AP, anti-tv, and anti-gun, but we have a home movie of when I was about 5, shooting a Lego "gun" I'd made.

"Erin, no guns. You know that."
"Mom, it's not a gun! It's a fairy dust thrower! I'm killing you with fairy dust!"

Kids are weird, and do weird things, regardless of what's been modeled or the ideals we'd like to instill in them.

I just gotta say, I love this post. Especially "I'm killing you with fairy dust!"


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I am really hoping, though it's probably not true judging from the rest of your post, that these "probably 7-10" guns are toys.

When you can't tell how many you have, how are you supposed to tell when one goes missing? The idea that someone has several guns in the house, but doesn't know how many they actually have is just frightening.

My BIL has hundreds of guns in a room with a steel door and two main locks. It's his collection. I don't think he could tell you how many. He's always buying and selling them.

Quote:

In the interest of full disclosure, we believe in the right to self-defense and we're prepared to defend ourselves if someone is foolish enough to attack our family.
Is it self-defense, or revenge? Because the safest home is one without guns at all, because most injuries and accidents are from your own guns. Most people never get to shoot at an intruder.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

The 7-10 guns are not mine. One or two might technically be mine, but I haven't shot them in a couple years. They're locked up in a gun cabinet and its not like any of them are handguns, they're all shotguns/rifles/bb-guns.







*I* wouldn't know if one was missing but dad and/or dh would.









Otherwise... can I just say a *HUGE* "YEAH THAT!!" to Tigerlily?? I mean, really. Swords were a much less democratic devise for 'self defense' than guns are. We romantasize them today, true. But when they were actually used it was not in a romantic way - they were used exclusively for killing people. Mostly the elite killed the poor. So how on earth is/was that any better than a gun? Which you can at least use to hunt for your food!!


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## VillageMom6 (Dec 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Most people never get to shoot at an intruder.

But the ones that do are grateful to have had that opportunity... and to be alive to tell about it.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes, but guns are used to kill people now, often many people at a time - something swords do not do. When was the last time you heard someone go on a sword spree? That might be part of the reason for the ick factor with guns and people - as opposed to swords.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
While we're talking culture, and how swords are cultured and guns are not, let's be open about the sword culture, shall we?

Nobility or at the very least upper class people were the ones that had swords. Or those who were in service to the above. So if you're going to get persnickety, you also should be honest about the fact that they were not only weapons, but part of a whole culture of the elite that regularly preyed upon those "lesser" and thought nothing of it. And samurai were killing machines. I guess we in the west might pretty it up a bit, with the noble warrior bit--but even the samurai themselves acknowledged that fact (and attempted noble warriordom). To be samurai was to serve your (wealthy, noble) master absolutely, and to commit suicide if you ever failed or if you displeased him and he asked it of you.

Yes, with the advent of "cultured" sport fencing has become a sport for the masses (sort of) but it's fairly recent that the rabble (like women) were even allowed to compete internationally on certain weapons, ect. And let's not forget, target shooting is an olympic (and national) sport that IMO gets just as much press and popular attention as fencing (i.e. Not Much).

To me, knights and samurai are frankly not very romantic. They are about as romantic in practice as a wild west vigilante mob. In real life, there was nothing much pretty about any of them. But for play purposes, which are based on fantasy, folktale, and cleaned up stereotypes, playing ninja/samurai/knight/swashbuckler/pirate/wild west sherriff, ect. are great fun--and would be very Not Fun if people played them with full knowledge of reality. IMO.

If your kids play pirate with a sword, do you explain to them that real pirates kill often kill everyone on the ship to take it in, kidnap people for ransom, often rape the female passengers/crew, and were historically used to commit terrorist acts against other countries' ships and crew as well as civilians and native people? I sure as hell hope not. There is a time and place to discuss real history too, but I don't think a kid who's playing needs an adult lecture about history and the adult's projection of their own knowledge into the child's play.

I agree with some of what you write here.
The difference for me is that the vast majority of sword play for my kids is either in the imaginative realm (they have their own wizard world) or in the historical context. And no they don't have the full historical perspective because they are not yet old enough to understand it. However their play is not violent.
In contrast, guns are the current killing machine - they are in the here and now. They can require little skill to be used. They are completely glorified in American culture. The majority of gun play I have witnessed (not by my kids) is not creative or imaginative. It's of the "bang you're dead" sort with little 'story' behind it. The play IS the killing - the blowing away of someone with no interaction, no reason - reflecting some of the tv/games/news we see too much of. It's beyond chilling to me.

NeedleintheHay - no my kids don't play racist, sexist or homophobic games but we have certainly seen that sort of thing on the playground, sometimes with violence attached to the play. And most parents seem horrified and jump in to stop it or redirect it. And yet gun play is given a complete pass. I agree with Velochic that there is a cultural and a modelling aspect at play here.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I've never had a problem with my kids playing with toy guns. DS1 had a moderate arsenal (was _way_ more into swords and such, though) as a child. The only real rule I ever had was that he wasn't to "shoot" at anybody who didn't want to be "shot" at, as I know some people are really bothered by that. Other than that, it was pretty much free play, to the best of my recollection (he's 17, and those days seem like a lifetime ago). I've honestly never understood why people object to toy guns, so I can't really give you any 'counters".











My ex-H (my boys' dad) lost one of his best friends at age 13 to a gun accident. The boy was showing his dad's gun to a couple of friends and it went off and killed him. My ex still carries the clipping of the obituary in his wallet and it's been more than 20 years. So, our kids have been warned about the dangers of real guns. We also had friends who were hunters when we lived in Virginia. The guns were kept in a safe, and their son could bring down a deer by the time he was 8 or 9, so he would talk about shooting every so often.

IME, forbidding things makes them more attractive. And, IME, kids who want to "play guns" will just make them out of something else...their fingers, or a branch, or a carrot.

My kids had toy guns, knives, maces, swords....and they have also played lots of video games that have violence in them (not at age 3, but probably as early as age 10 for my younger one). We talk about stuff. They know the difference between make-believe and reality. They are kind, gentle people.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Karen, it was not so long ago that there were several national stories in the news with people who decapitated others with swords and long knives--one in a university building, one in full view of others on a bus. Seattle has had several instances of mentally ill persons menacing others with a sword. (Granted, in one case where it looked like the sword wielder was going to do more than that, he was shot.) I have personally been threatened with both edged (including axes, swords, and knives) and projectile weapons (including a bow, but yes, firearms too) doing work with mental health agencies and going on (escorted thank god) child removals (nowadays it seems like the police do a lot of the removals, or so I have heard, I've been out of the workforce for 10 years now). In other areas of the world, I can guaratee you that there have been a few people maimed and/or killed by machete today.

Swords and sword-like weapons are lauded in our culture too, especially as it fuses with others. Lightsabers, ninjas (extremely innacurately portrayed, if I might dump out another pet peeve here), and pirates come to mind. You can even buy Hot Pink Jolly Roger paper plates for your glitter pirate birthday party and pink plastic swords too, for goodness sake.

Are you saying that play is only creative to you if it as a prolonged death scene that involves prolonged self defense before the inevitable? Most play sword fights (including lightsabers) I have seen do involve someone/something dying at the end, generally after many slashes and strikes. The kids might have more time to negotiate, I guess. I'm not really sure my adult mind really is more comfortable with death by sword. Decapitation seems rather painful considering that most people can't do it cleanly, and a piercing wound is immensely painful no matter by what implement. And since you mentioned fencing, you know that from the sport perspective, the results at the higher levels happen in "bang you're dead" speed many times.

The children who playfight gun battles are exploring many of the same themes. If they want to be correct, they probably should recreate a prolonged death scene and self-defense--because guns do not kill people as fast as many people imagine unless it's a very lucky shot, and it's often an agonzing, frightening death. I imagine the people through the ages (up to and including WWII and beyond) who have faced being attacked by swords found the experience frightening and painful as well. In addition, it's often not the death itself is the point of either "gun fights" or "sword fights" (often prettied up to "swordplay," but let's be real here), but the chase (which can also feel really icky to us adults, for understandable reasons).

Again, I support any parent who wishes to restrict whatever play they wish to. It's not silly at all to be concerned about societal and peer influences over your kids when it comes to condoning violence; nor is it silly at all to be very careful about safety.

However, what I DO think is a little silly is romanticization of swords over guns. Look at this this way. Put the most bluntly, rifles and shotguns do and always have had hunting applications. Pistols less so, but you could I suppose. But it is not general practice to run down a deer or a rabbit with a sword or chuck your saber into the air to bring down a goose for dinner. So which one is the one that is "only used for killing?" If having any sporty application removes the "only used for killing" label, then you must remove it from guns as well as swords. I choose to categorize created weapons (vs. anything you pick up can be used as a weapon in some context) as...weapons. What people do with them (collection, sport, hunting/slaughter for food, murder) is another issue. But kids often explore death in their play. So I don't really think of murderous/abuse themed children's play as indication of future problems necessarily--but they are uncomfortable for adults to witness sometimes.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

It isn't actually the case that it doesn't take much skill to use a gun. Pistol shooting in particular is difficult.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Tigerchild - I agree with you generally on the historical and current context, even though we do have swords around my house and not so many guns. Mind you I also got disinvited to an SCA event in my youth because I wanted to wander around as a diseased beggar.









I still don't mind the play (sword or gun) provided the "only if the other person agrees" rule is enacted and I still am not that comfy with toys guns. We talk about it sometimes and sometimes we don't and just play.

I was reminded of a pretty cool article I read once about one of the 'realistic' video war games (Call of Duty maybe)? This teen (I think about 17, not a young teen) wanted to play and his parents didn't want him to. They negotiated in the end that he could play but only if he read, absorbed and FOLLOWED the Geneva convention. I thought that had to be one of the coolest compromises in the history of modern parenting.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I think it's good for kids to explore things in a safe way. It's also good to explain to them the real consequences of war, guns, violence, and accidents involving guns. My 9yo dd just got Lego Star Wars Wii game on the recommendation of a friend of hers. She loves it. She's a peace-loving vegetarian girl who wants to be a biologist and research endagered species. The other day she told me she wished everyone would just get along in the world and have no war and all be friends. I have no concerns about her turning violent at some point just from playing the game where people have sword and gun fights. I give my kids credit for knowing the difference between play and reality.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Based on 30 years of anec-data, I'd say that I've yet to meet anyone who is anti-gun as an adult because their parents didn't allow toy gun play. My mom, as I said earlier, was very anti-gun. I love target shooting. My DH's mom didn't allow guns. Both of her sons are former Army, and still like going to the range.

The people I've encountered who are anti-gun in their parenting either had an experience with losing someone to gun accidents or violence, or who just find them icky (like my mom and MIL.)

I think forbidding gun play only works in the short-term- the kids don't play with guns, but doesn't instill a lifelong dislike of them.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Is it self-defense, or revenge? Because the safest home is one without guns at all, because most injuries and accidents are from your own guns. Most people never get to shoot at an intruder.

Statistically, the safest home is one without a swimming pool. Guns come in a long distance down the list of home dangers. I would love to see a source for your claim that "most injuries and accidents are from your own guns", because it's one I've never heard even from the most ardent anti-gun groups. In fact most accidents at home are from falls, if I'm remembering my CDC statistics correctly.

A gun safety instructor will sternly inform you that there's no such thing as an "accidental discharge"--only a negligent one. A parent who doesn't secure her guns is as negligent as one who leaves prescription medication lying around, or keeps Drano in reach of a toddler, or leaves the keys in her unlocked car with young children playing about, or owns an unfenced, unlocked pool and leaves the exterior doors wide open. We all have many dangerous things in our home, but no one is suggesting that we should ban prescription drugs, drain cleaner, swimming pools, kitchen knives, or staircases. Instead, we should take the obvious precautions to make sure they're inaccessible to little ones.

In a substantial number of cases in which guns are used to stop a crime in progress, the gun is never even fired. Simply knowing that a potential victim is armed and ready to defend herself is frequently enough to deter a violent criminal. However, a person who attacks my family or me with the intent of causing us harm will be stopped in whatever way necessary until they are no longer a threat. They made the choice to attack an innocent, and so they took the risk that that innocent would be willing and able to fight back. I don't believe that a woman lying raped and strangled to death with her own pantyhose is morally superior to one who is explaining to the police why that same rapist is lying gunshot on her bedroom floor.

Again, the right to defend oneself from harm is sacred to my family, and to most others I know who are firearms owners. We do not believe that an attacker has more right to safety and security than his intended victim. You are welcome to disagree, and I assure you that if it makes you so uncomfortable, we will never use our guns to defend you and your family.









Incidentally, the Cornered Cat addresses this very issue eloquently and thoroughly. Guns bring out strong emotions in people and it can be hard to think about them rationally. But it's important to try if you really want to understand why on Earth any sane person would want a gun in the house.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OP: If you're still reading, I wanted to make one point that I think I hinted at earlier, but didn't state explicitly.

I don't control my children's pretend play. I just don't do it. Barring someone being hurt in real life (physically, such as sword play turning into "hit each other with sticks" or emotionally, as in exclusionary "we don't want you in this game, because you suck at it" stuff), I let them play. It feels really...icky to me to try to control what someone else is allowed to think, pretend, or imagine. To _me_, that's a more...antisocial? act than pointing a stick at a friend and saying, "bang, bang - you're dead" (not that I ever heard ds1 use those words), if that friend has no problem with the game. Other obviously disagree with me, but it's something I have strong feelings about.

ETA: "Antisocial" isn't quite the word I'm looking for, but I'm going to let it stand until I can figure out what word I really want.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Based on 30 years of anec-data, I'd say that I've yet to meet anyone who is anti-gun as an adult because their parents didn't allow toy gun play. My mom, as I said earlier, was very anti-gun. I love target shooting. My DH's mom didn't allow guns. Both of her sons are former Army, and still like going to the range.

The people I've encountered who are anti-gun in their parenting either had an experience with losing someone to gun accidents or violence, or who just find them icky (like my mom and MIL.)

I think forbidding gun play only works in the short-term- the kids don't play with guns, but doesn't instill a lifelong dislike of them.

Well, you've met one now. My father is, to this day, a gun enthusiast (a former hunter, but he's too old now). When my siblings and I were growing up (60's and 70's), gun "play" was forbidden. There were always guns in our house, and Dad did a good job of keeping them under lock and key, but he taught us to respect them, not include them in our imaginary "play". I used to shoot when I was a teen and even became a pretty good shot with a rifle. I remember the first time I shot a handgun, and while I don't remember the caliber, it literally knocked me on my butt and the recoil caused me to hit my forehead with my gun hand and left a bruise both on my forehead and my thumb. That taught me that these are not toys, but serious business and not something to even pretend. My father always said that "guns are not pretend... if you shoot, you always shoot to kill, and that's not fun". I grew up around guns, but with a father that prohibited "gun play".

Forbidding gun-play certainly worked for me.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
Statistically, the safest home is one without a swimming pool. Guns come in a long distance down the list of home dangers. I would love to see a source for your claim that "most injuries and accidents are from your own guns", because it's one I've never heard even from the most ardent anti-gun groups. In fact most accidents at home are from falls, if I'm remembering my CDC statistics correctly.

.

Guns do come far down the list on accidental injuries and deaths. That, however, is not the question (or shouldn't be the question).

The question should be: what is the liklihood of needing to defend oneself against a violent intruder versus the liklihood of an accidental shooting?

I am sure there are stats from both sides - and how you decide some of it may be regional (there are regional differences in rates of violence).

Here is what the AAP has to say:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;105/4/888

and the University of Michigan:

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

Personally, I would not have guns in the house with young children. I do not think it is safe - and I do not think you can train children enough to leave guns alone. They are kids, some are bound to be curious, goof up/show off...and that is how tragedies happen









We make our own decisions on the matter, I guess.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Guns do come far down the list on accidental injuries and deaths. That, however, is not the question (or shouldn't be the question).

It is the question if the claim is made that "most accidents" are from guns in a home. They are not.

Quote:

The question should be: what is the liklihood of needing to defend oneself against a violent intruder versus the liklihood of an accidental shooting?
Countless crimes are thwarted by lawful gun owners every year. This is acknowledged by the FBI and Justice Department. The numbers vary depending on locality, but simply showing a holstered pistol is commonly enough to stop a mugging, rape, or murder. Some carefully compiled statistics are available in this PDF (free): http://GunFacts.info/

Quote:

I am sure there are stats from both sides - and how you decide some of it may be regional (there are regional differences in rates of violence).
Some of it is definitely regional. Interestingly, areas with stricter rates of gun control often have higher rates of violent crime, much of it gun crime. This makes perfect sense if you think like a criminal; would you rather prey on people who are likely to be armed, or law-abiding citizens who walk around dutifully unarmed and defenseless?

Quote:

Personally, I would not have guns in the house with young children. I do not think it is safe - and I do not think you can train children enough to leave guns alone. They are kids, some are bound to be curious, goof up/show off...and that is how tragedies happen









We make our own decisions on the matter, I guess.
I don't think anyone who is uncomfortable with guns should have them in the home. I don't think anyone who is unwilling to shoot an attacker, if it comes to that, should have guns in the home. I don't think anyone who's unwilling to train with their weapon on a regular basis should have guns in the home. Gun ownership carries with it huge responsibilities and is definitely not for everyone.

I _do_ think that everyone should teach their child the Eddie Eagle rules of gun safety, at the very least, because children will not be in a gun-free home forever. There are lots of guns and there are plenty of places in which a child might encounter a found gun. Knowing what to do-- Stop! Don't touch! Leave the area! Tell an adult! --could save a life. The EE program doesn't promote gun ownership or Second Amendment rights, by the way. It's a bit like the stop, drop, and roll program we all learned as kids. Easy to remember and very effective.

I would never say that everyone should have to own and use guns. I just hope people who choose not to own and use guns would extend to me and mine the same freedom of choice.

Sorry to get off-topic, OP! I know this thread was never intended to turn into a debate re: the merits of confiscating guns from law-abiding citizens versus empowering people to legally defend themselves from violent crime. It sounds like you've gotten a lot of great input here (as have I) and I'm thrilled that this thread has remained so civil.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I find it interesting reading these posts - I never really worry about my kids finding a gun in someone's home. And we have guns, because my husband hunts and shoots competitively.

But it's illegal not to lock them up, with ammunition locked up separately. But I think this seems like a cultural thing to me - I just don't expect guns to ever be where kids could get them.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 

Some of it is definitely regional. *Interestingly, areas with stricter rates of gun control often have higher rates of violent crime, much of it gun crime.* This makes perfect sense if you think like a criminal; would you rather prey on people who are likely to be armed, or law-abiding citizens who walk around dutifully unarmed and defenseless?

_Bolding mine.

Canada does have stricter gun control than the US with a lower rate of violent crime. So while we agree on the "regional thing" - I am not sure we agree on the why. I do not think stricter or gun control equals higher rates of crime - at least not in general. . I am not sure that matters on an individual sense - people live where they live and make their choices based on their area.
_

I _do_ think that everyone should teach their child the Eddie Eagle rules of gun safety, at the very least, because children will not be in a gun-free home forever. There are lots of guns and there are plenty of places in which a child might encounter a found gun. Knowing what to do-- Stop! Don't touch! Leave the area! Tell an adult! --could save a life. The EE program doesn't promote gun ownership or Second Amendment rights, by the way. It's a bit like the stop, drop, and roll program we all learned as kids. Easy to remember and very effective.

_I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Just because I do not choose to have a gun in my house - does not mean other people make the same choices. Sticking ones head in the sand could lead to tragedy._

I would never say that everyone should have to own and use guns. I just hope people who choose not to own and use guns would extend to me and mine the same freedom of choice.

_In many ways I do. I do not share your desire to own a gun, but I acknowledge you as the parent have the right to make decisions for your family. I am less inclined to support carrying laws, but that is another post, I think.__
_


On the topic of toy guns - I sort of allowed it. I do not like playing guns - but felt imposing my "don't do it!"*would (perhaps) make them more inclined to do it. Forbidden fruit and all that. I also do not beleive in interferring with childrens play unless someone is going to get hurt emotionally or physically. Moreover, gunplay did lead to some social, active time - and that is not bad. I only bought water pistols, although my son spent some of his money on toy guns. I had long preached - your money: do what you want with it - so I was not going to veto the toy guns. I have also been quite vocal (from time to time) about what I did not like about playing guns - and in this way got across my values. For some kids this path would have sent mixed messages, but I believe my allowing playing while discussing real guns and violence was the best course for my family.

I think playing guns is different from pretending to beat up someone of a different race because gun play is a way of sorting out aggression issues (that may or may not be present in all of us - another post, yet again!), while beating up a spouse or person of a different race is about discrimination against a certain set of people. I totally think the gun thing is cultural - although the instinct to play/sort out aggression may be innate.

Mostly, though, I have allowed gun play because I do not think gun play leads to real violence. Many Canadian children play with toy guns - but overall we are a fairly safe nation. Gun play does not equal real violence.

The roots of violence lie elsewhere I think.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
Statistically, the safest home is one without a swimming pool.

I meant, compared to a home with guns. "Safest" as regards gun presence is concerned.

Obviously there are a gazillion other variables that could make a person more or less safe.

Quote:

Interestingly, areas with stricter rates of gun control often have higher rates of violent crime, much of it gun crime. This makes perfect sense if you think like a criminal; would you rather prey on people who are likely to be armed, or law-abiding citizens who walk around dutifully unarmed and defenseless?
Nooo... people who are most likely to be harmed by guns are more likely to pass legislation restricting gun ownership. Larger cities with larger populations of very poor people have more criminals; gun laws are often passed by other city-dwellers worried about the criminals.

Quote:

It is the question if the claim is made that "most accidents" are from guns in a home. They are not.
No, nobody wrote that AT ALL.

And the question is, do people allow gun play?

Guns don't make homes safer, period. There are many studies that show this. They simply don't. Somewhat safe=own a gun for self defense or whatever, safer=lock it up and hide the key, safest=no guns in the home.

Once again, this has nothing to do with swimming pools. I'm talking gun safety, not general safety.

Yes, car accidents happen and we don't ban cars. This is irrelevant because we've made a communal decision that cars are worth it (most of us have, anyway). Most people think guns aren't. I'm all for the freedom to own a personal gun but don't kid yourself.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
I find it interesting reading these posts - I never really worry about my kids finding a gun in someone's home. And we have guns, because my husband hunts and shoots competitively.

But it's illegal not to lock them up, with ammunition locked up separately. But I think this seems like a cultural thing to me - I just don't expect guns to ever be where kids could get them.

That's interesting to me. I assume that if there is a gun in the house, the children will know exactly where it is and how to get at it, and that the parents will be clueless that this is so.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I meant, compared to a home with guns. "Safest" as regards gun presence is concerned.

I would argue that a home without guns is less safe than a home with secured guns and responsible gun owners, because it's more vulnerable to a home invasion and violent crime. I guess it's subjective.

Quote:

Nooo... people who are most likely to be harmed by guns are more likely to pass legislation restricting gun ownership. Larger cities with larger populations of very poor people have more criminals; gun laws are often passed by other city-dwellers worried about the criminals.
Most gun crimes, an overwhelming majority, are committed by people who own their guns illegally. Because they're criminals, they don't worry about pesky things like gun laws. Cities with the most stringent gun laws are often extremely violent, with terrifying numbers of deadly shootings --Chicago and Washington, D.C. come to mind.

Quote:

And the question is, do people allow gun play?
Some do, some don't. The answers in this thread seem to indicate that even non gun-owning families allow gun play with certain boundaries. (I'm assuming you mean with toy guns or imaginary guns, not careless play with actual guns. *shudder* )

Quote:

Guns don't make homes safer, period. There are many studies that show this. They simply don't. Somewhat safe=own a gun for self defense or whatever, safer=lock it up and hide the key, safest=no guns in the home.
I would love to see sources for these studies. I'm always looking to learn more about gun crime statistics and gun ownership, so anything you could share backing up your statements would be really helpful. The PDF I posted above, which is compiled from official crime stats, soundly refutes your claims.

Quote:

Once again, this has nothing to do with swimming pools. I'm talking gun safety, not general safety.

Yes, car accidents happen and we don't ban cars. This is irrelevant because we've made a communal decision that cars are worth it (most of us have, anyway).
It's about relative safety and putting things into perspective. A home with no bath tubs or stairs is safer than a home with both, but most reasonable people agree that it would be silly to assert that your child should never visit a home that has bath tubs and stairs. Responsible gun ownership is possible, and teaching children gun safety is possible, as millions of happy American gun-owning families can attest. The statistics simply don't bear out the statement that a home with guns in it is less safe than one without. Millions and millions of American children are raised in gun-owning households without incident. Many of them are taught to handle and fire guns from a very early age, and grow into responsible gun-owning adults.

It's completely your choice to refuse to associate with gun owners and to refuse to allow your children into a home containing guns. No one has ever argued otherwise. I just feel compelled to point out that the choice may not be entirely evidence-based, as so many beliefs about an emotional topic like private gun ownership tend not to be. We all have to do the best we can with the information we have, right?

Quote:

Most people think guns aren't. I'm all for the freedom to own a personal gun but don't kid yourself.
I don't know about the "most people think guns aren't" statement. That certainly varies by location and culture. Where I live, almost everyone, from the little old lady down the road to the AP homebirthing, babywearing, organic farming family on the corner are gun owners. So the blanket statement that guns aren't considered a valuable tool in everyday life definitely doesn't apply to all or even most American populations.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
I would argue that a home without guns is less safe than a home with secured guns and responsible gun owners, because it's more vulnerable to a home invasion and violent crime. I guess it's subjective.

It's not subjective. More people are killed in accidental gun deaths than are killed by intruders.

Quote:

Most gun crimes, an overwhelming majority, are committed by people who own their guns illegally. Because they're criminals, they don't worry about pesky things like gun laws. Cities with the most stringent gun laws are often extremely violent, with terrifying numbers of deadly shootings --Chicago and Washington, D.C. come to mind.
These guns get into the market through people who buy them legally and re-sell.

Quote:

I would love to see sources for these studies. I'm always looking to learn more about gun crime statistics and gun ownership, so anything you could share backing up your statements would be really helpful. The PDF I posted above, which is compiled from official crime stats, soundly refutes your claims.

Quote:

Responsible gun ownership is possible, and teaching children gun safety is possible, as millions of happy American gun-owning families can attest. The statistics simply don't bear out the statement that a home with guns in it is less safe than one without.
Nobody said that you cannot be safe in a home with guns.

I said it's safer without.

Quote:

It's completely your choice to refuse to associate with gun owners and to refuse to allow your children into a home containing guns.
LEt's not bring straw men into this. Honestly. I for one never suggested such a thing.

Quote:

I don't know about the "most people think guns aren't" statement. That certainly varies by location and culture. Where I live, almost everyone, from the little old lady down the road to the AP homebirthing, babywearing, organic farming family on the corner are gun owners. So the blanket statement that guns aren't considered a valuable tool in everyday life definitely doesn't apply to all or even most American populations.
I didn't use a blanket statement. I'm talking about a majority of people... in the WORLD.

Sorry, don't live in the U.S. at present.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
I would argue that a home without guns is less safe than a home with secured guns and responsible gun owners, because it's more vulnerable to a home invasion and violent crime. I guess it's subjective.

Most gun crimes, an overwhelming majority, are committed by people who own their guns illegally. Because they're criminals, they don't worry about pesky things like gun laws. Cities with the most stringent gun laws are often extremely violent, with terrifying numbers of deadly shootings --Chicago and Washington, D.C. come to mind.


I don't have time at the moment to look for the stats, but I'll try to come back tomorrow and do that. In the meantime, the main point I want to make is that statistically (and I don't even know any gun groups that can or have successfully disputed this), IF you have a gun in your home AT ALL, it is far far more likely that that gun will be used on someone you know, NOT in the midst of that known person robbing you or something, but in the midst of a dispute, domestic violence, accidental shooting, or purposeful crime.

Similarly, the statistical odds of being a victim of a home invasion compared to someone you know getting shot with your gun don't even compare, unless you live in a high crime area.

So it's not that "homes with no guns are safer than homes with guns when it comes to home invasions", I don't think anyone's saying that. But if you don't live in a high crime area, the odds of you using your gun in a home invasion or in any other way to defend your family or property are SO MUCH SMALLER than the odds that that gun will be used on someone you know, *that* is why many feel it's best and safer to just not have guns at all.

Having said all that, we have a gun in our house, but I also live in a high crime area. But even as a responsible gun owner who does feel safer because we have one, the crime stats and gun stats speak for themselves on how it's most likely that gun will be used if it's ever used at all on a human. And it's unlikely to be used against a criminal stranger.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
It's not subjective. More people are killed in accidental gun deaths than are killed by intruders.

Source, please. I imagine that varies greatly by country, state, town, and even county.

Quote:

These guns get into the market through people who buy them legally and re-sell.
Actually, in the United States most illegal guns are brought in via illegal arms smuggling, kind of like the drug trade. Others are stolen.

Quote:

Nobody said that you cannot be safe in a home with guns.

I said it's safer without.
And I'm asking you to support that statement with data.

Quote:

LEt's not bring straw men into this. Honestly. I for one never suggested such a thing.
I apologize for attributing that statement to you. It's been mentioned in this thread a few times.

Quote:

I didn't use a blanket statement. I'm talking about a majority of people... in the WORLD.

Sorry, don't live in the U.S. at present.
It's still a blanket statement, if you're talking about a majority of people anywhere. Again, it varies. And I do live in the U.S., where many millions of people own guns. I'm sure the gun culture is very different elsewhere.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
I don't have time at the moment to look for the stats, but I'll try to come back tomorrow and do that. In the meantime, the main point I want to make is that statistically (and I don't even know any gun groups that can or have successfully disputed this), IF you have a gun in your home AT ALL, it is far far more likely that that gun will be used on someone you know, NOT in the midst of that known person robbing you or something, but in the midst of a dispute, domestic violence, accidental shooting, or purposeful crime.

I'll be interested to see your stats on that, since every source I've seen, including from the Justice Department and the FBI which compiles such stats, suggests that lawful gun owners have lower rates of committing all crimes, including domestic violence, across the board.

Quote:

Similarly, the statistical odds of being a victim of a home invasion compared to someone you know getting shot with your gun don't even compare, unless you live in a high crime area.
I look forward to seeing hard evidence on this. The PDF I posted above refutes it absolutely. And unfortunately, many people _do_ live in a high crime area. The most damaging thing about gun confiscation is that it mostly targets the working poor, who may not be able to afford to move from a high crime area but still deserve to be able to defend themselves from predators of the two-legged persuasion.

Quote:

So it's not that "homes with no guns are safer than homes with guns when it comes to home invasions", I don't think anyone's saying that. But if you don't live in a high crime area, the odds of you using your gun in a home invasion or in any other way to defend your family or property are SO MUCH SMALLER than the odds that that gun will be used on someone you know, *that* is why many feel it's best and safer to just not have guns at all.
Again, I look forward to seeing proof that refutes the documents I posted above. Regardless, if you're a responsible gun owner and have taken the time and responsibility to secure your firearms and teach your children gun safety, the odds that your child will harm himself or others with a gun are slim to none, as demonstrated by the many millions of children who live in gun-owning households without incident.

Quote:

Having said all that, we have a gun in our house, but I also live in a high crime area. But even as a responsible gun owner who does feel safer because we have one, the crime stats and gun stats speak for themselves on how it's most likely that gun will be used if it's ever used at all on a human. And it's unlikely to be used against a criminal stranger.
I think, as a gun owner, you might be surprised to learn that having a gun in the house, assuming you secure it, teach your children gun safety, and follow the Four Rules as religiously as they deserve to be followed, is no more dangerous than not owning a firearm. If you live in a high crime area, you already know that it's quite the opposite, actually.

I have to run so if I don't respond for awhile I'll try to get back to it later. Thank you for the food for thought and continued discussion, mamas!


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
I would argue that a home without guns is less safe than a home with secured guns and responsible gun owners, because it's more vulnerable to a home invasion and violent crime. I guess it's subjective.

I have been the victim of home invasion. Believe me... if you have secured your weapons in a safe that requires a key and/or have them stored separately from the ammunition... you are just as vulnerable as any other joe-shmo without a gun because THERE IS NO TIME to get to your guns and unlock/load them. Better to learn some self-defense of the proactive rather than reactive type.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I have been the victim of home invasion. Believe me... if you have secured your weapons in a safe that requires a key and/or have them stored separately from the ammunition... you are just as vulnerable as any other joe-shmo without a gun because THERE IS NO TIME to get to your guns and unlock/load them. Better to learn some self-defense of the proactive rather than reactive type.

I do agree that gun safes make home protection difficult. Our plan, when we purchase a handgun, will be to get one of the safes that opens in response to fingerprints to have next to the bed- ZERO chance of anyone but me or DH getting it, and it opens very quickly.

I think in general, the response time for obtaining your safely stored firearm in a home invasion situation will vary based on where you are in the house and where the entry is being made.

And there's no self-defense that's effective for frightened victims when the attacker has a gun. You can know all the tae kwon do in the world, but it's not going to stop a bullet.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I have been the victim of home invasion. Believe me... if you have secured your weapons in a safe that requires a key and/or have them stored separately from the ammunition... you are just as vulnerable as any other joe-shmo without a gun because THERE IS NO TIME to get to your guns and unlock/load them. Better to learn some self-defense of the proactive rather than reactive type.

Yeah, I don't get this - if someone breaks into my house, how am I going to find my dh's keys, get down to the basement, unlock the gun, and the trigger lock if I want the pistol, go to the ammo safe and unlock it, and load the gun?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
My BIL has hundreds of guns in a room with a steel door and two main locks. It's his collection. I don't think he could tell you how many. He's always buying and selling them.

And there is a good chance he knows exactly how many he has. I don't know a single gun own in real life who couldn't tell you exactly how many guns they have.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
Yeah, I don't get this - if someone breaks into my house, how am I going to find my dh's keys, get down to the basement, unlock the gun, and the trigger lock if I want the pistol, go to the ammo safe and unlock it, and load the gun?

I was a teen when this home invasion happened. It really opened my father's eyes. He had no time to get to ANYTHING. I hate to say it, but after that, he slept with a .38 (loaded) under his pillow. I'm the youngest and I was 15 at the time, so no problem with a youngster no knowing to not play with the "toy" under daddy's pillow.

The point is... if you want guns for protection, then they aren't safe for young ones because you can't have it both ways... safe from young curiosity and also accessible during an emergency.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
And there is a good chance he knows exactly how many he has. I don't know a single gun own in real life who couldn't tell you exactly how many guns they have.

I agree. My Dad knows every single detail about all of his guns. So does his wife... including the last time fired and cleaned.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I was a teen when this home invasion happened. It really opened my father's eyes. He had no time to get to ANYTHING. I hate to say it, but after that, he slept with a .38 (loaded) under his pillow. I'm the youngest and I was 15 at the time, so no problem with a youngster no knowing to not play with the "toy" under daddy's pillow.

The point is... if you want guns for protection, then they aren't safe for young ones because you can't have it both ways... safe from young curiosity and also accessible during an emergency.

Again, the biometric gun safes are ideal for families who want protection and have small kids, as they allow quick, silent access to a loaded firearm but are impossible for anyone but authorized persons to access.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Again, the biometric gun safes are ideal for families who want protection and have small kids, as they allow quick, silent access to a loaded firearm but are impossible for anyone but authorized persons to access.

Great, if you can get to them.


----------



## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
And there is a good chance he knows exactly how many he has. I don't know a single gun own in real life who couldn't tell you exactly how many guns they have.

I dunno... he doesn't have a database and his wife certainly doesn't know.


----------



## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
I'll be interested to see your stats on that, since every source I've seen, including from the Justice Department and the FBI which compiles such stats, suggests that lawful gun owners have lower rates of committing all crimes, including domestic violence, across the board.

But don't you see? Your stat and my stat are not mutually exclusive. Lawful gun owners may have lower rates of committing all crimes... that doesn't mean at all that it isn't still true that if you have a lawful gun in your home at all, IF it gets used it's more likely it'll be used NOT in defending your home against a stranger crime, but against someone you know, either purposefully or accidentally.

Show me stats that say when you look at all the people who get shot by lawful gun owners/guns in homes that are lawfully owned, the majority of those people were strangers on the property in the midst of committing a crime.

I've never seen that stat, mainly because it doesn't exist. Because it's not true. Not even NRA tries to claim that that is true. If a lawful gun shoots any human, it is far more likely to be a family or friend or aquaintance than it is a stranger criminal trying to commit a crime.

Yes somehow it is the scenario of a stranger criminal that is hyped as who everyone needs guns to protect them from... despite the above fact.

That does not mean that somehow lawful gun owners are more likely to shoot family/friends than criminals are to shoot people, it's not saying that at all. It's just looking at the times when a lawful gun is used to shoot someone, who is that person statistically most likely to be? And it's not a home invader.

And though this isn't scientific, just think of the news. How often do you actually hear stories of people shooting home invaders/criminals on their property? It happens, not saying it doesn't, but it's nowhere near as common as stories of people shooting their exes, parents, friends in the midst of a fight, neighbors... and I'm talking about stories that confirm the gun was legally owned. Those stories happen all the time. Not scientific, but another indicator of what the crime and shooting stats do show.

I have a friend who's a cop and gun enthusiast, I've had this conversation with him many times (he's the first one to admit that yes, to the degree a legal gun is used on a person, it's most likely gonna be family or friends), but I'll ask for his help in sources cuz I doubt I'll have time to search the net for where I've already read these stats.


----------



## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Great, if you can get to them.

Of course. Mast people who have firearms for protection have them where they feel the most vulnerable, like your dad, and just want them in the bedroom.

Short of wearing a hip holster constantly (which some people choose to do), getting to _anything_ in an emergency- a firearm, the phone, a blunt object- is unlikely unless you have a plan in effect.

It's probably a really weird thing to do, but DH and I basically have "emergency plans" for all rooms of our house in the event of fire, a break-in, etc. I'm mean, we don't have drills or anything, but it's basically just a fire escape plan- "If the fire/bad guy is coming in through x window, I can get out through z door and y door."

Watch enough zombie movies and you take a slightly more paranoid view towards home security.


----------



## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I dunno... he doesn't have a database and his wife certainly doesn't know.

You don't need a database to know...


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
I find it interesting reading these posts - I never really worry about my kids finding a gun in someone's home. And we have guns, because my husband hunts and shoots competitively.

But it's illegal not to lock them up, with ammunition locked up separately. But I think this seems like a cultural thing to me - I just don't expect guns to ever be where kids could get them.

Very very different scenario - and culture IMO in the States.
When I lived there as a highschool student I encountered guns in a number of situations where they would have been accessible to a child. Freaked the ahem out of me.
Karen


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
It isn't actually the case that it doesn't take much skill to use a gun. Pistol shooting in particular is difficult.

So why are there so many accidental deaths?


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Karen, it was not so long ago that there were several national stories in the news with people who decapitated others with swords and long knives--one in a university building, one in full view of others on a bus.

I don't live in the US so I'm not familiar with these stories.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Are you saying that play is only creative to you if it as a prolonged death scene that involves prolonged self defense before the inevitable? Most play sword fights (including lightsabers) I have seen do involve someone/something dying at the end, generally after many slashes and strikes. The kids might have more time to negotiate, I guess. I'm not really sure my adult mind really is more comfortable with death by sword. Decapitation seems rather painful considering that most people can't do it cleanly, and a piercing wound is immensely painful no matter by what implement. And since you mentioned fencing, you know that from the sport perspective, the results at the higher levels happen in "bang you're dead" speed many times.

No I'm saying that in my experience watching my kids, their friends, and in the park sword play rarely leads to any kind of death in the game unlike gun play which only ever seems to lead to swift death of almost everyone and everything in their path and little else. And that in our current culture guns are far more dangerous, glamourized, and accessible. They are instruments of war, death and power in ways that swords are just not. It may be silly to you but I see clear reasons for the distinction.

And as a side note - could we please stop calling ideas we disagree with silly and ridiculous. How does that advance respectful conversation at all? Can we not disagree without that kind of condescension?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
I don't live in the US so I'm not familiar with these stories.

Just FYI the bus decapitation was Canadian - it happened on a bus en route from Edmonton to Winnipeg, or the other way around, I can't remember.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
So why are there so many accidental deaths?

I don't understand what you mean? Do you mean accidents with guns?


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
So why are there so many accidental deaths?

While one is too many, there really aren't "so many."

Here's the breakdown (which include suicide and homicide):

Quote:

The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention

Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old
So, really, when you look at the numbers, we're all debating the wrong thing. Tiny guys don't seem to be confusing real guns with toys, but the older kids sure don't have the proper skills, fear, or respect of firearms.

Compare those numbers to those of drowning. One of the authors of Freakonomics established that, yes, swimming pools kill more kids than guns.

Quote:

on average, if you both own a gun and have a swimming pool in the backyard, the swimming pool is about 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Just FYI the bus decapitation was Canadian - it happened on a bus en route from Edmonton to Winnipeg, or the other way around, I can't remember.

Warning: The story is disturbing and upsetting. Be cautious about clicking.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...anscanada.html


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

FTR: Guns for protection is pretty much a non-issue in Canada. Very few violent crimes are committed with guns here. You'd have the advantage if you have something heavy you can throw...


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
I don't understand what you mean? Do you mean accidents with guns?

yes accidental deaths from firearms.
A friend of mine when we were 10 managed to pick up a bb gun and shoot another friend in the head with it. She was maybe 75 feet away.
He'd never picked up a gun before.
Skillful shooting needs skill. But anyone can pick up a gun and fire it and have a good chance of doing some damage.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 

Compare those numbers to those of drowning. One of the authors of Freakanomics established that, yes, swimming pools kill more kids than guns.

Yes but swimming pools serve another function besides intended death which is the sole purpose of a gun.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Watch enough zombie movies and you take a slightly more paranoid view towards home security.









I just had to







. I thought I was the only one who thought this way.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Yes but swimming pools serve another function besides intended death which is the sole purpose of a gun.

Which makes it all the more frightening that one can have such a strict anti-gun nature. Guns, which are "only for killing," DON'T kill as frequently as benign things like pools.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Watch enough zombie movies and you take a slightly more paranoid view towards home security.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *grumpybear* 
I just had to







. I thought I was the only one who thought this way.

In case of zombie attack, you'd really want to have both firearms *and* a sword-type weapon.

Although this thread has me pondering the wisdom of installing a swimming pool. Or perhaps a moat.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
yes accidental deaths from firearms.
A friend of mine when we were 10 managed to pick up a bb gun and shoot another friend in the head with it. She was maybe 75 feet away.
He'd never picked up a gun before.
Skillful shooting needs skill. But anyone can pick up a gun and fire it and have a good chance of doing some damage.

Yes, I guess that is what I would say - it's dumb luck. Also I think a lot of those kinds of accidents happen at close range, or with kids (or even adults) actually pointing a gun at someone close to them, without realizing it is loaded.

But as far as hitting something farther away, you might, but it is just as likely likely that you would hit something inanimate. Of course if you shoot into a crowd, or shoot enough bullets, odds are that eventually you will hit something.


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## averysmomma05 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
We don't have guns and we don't spend time in the homes of people who have guns, period. We talk a lot about why that is the case.

We don't buy guns, with the exception of supersoaker types, where getting wet is the point, and everyone has to want to join in or we don't use them.

If kids chose to form guns out of their fingers or sticks or whatever, while we don't encourage it, we don't forbid it.


This is us. I have girls and they really have no urge to pretend just yet.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Just FYI the bus decapitation was Canadian - it happened on a bus en route from Edmonton to Winnipeg, or the other way around, I can't remember.

Um yes but that was with a machete or large knife IIRC, not a sword and I am not really sure what your point is. All kinds of crazy things are used as weapons rather than for their primary purpose.


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Which makes it all the more frightening that one can have such a strict anti-gun nature. Guns, which are "only for killing," DON'T kill as frequently as benign things like pools.

I'm not following you here. So I shouldn't be anti gun because people drown in swimming pools? Or if I am anti gun I should be anti swimming pools as well?
Really don't get your point.

A gun's sole intent, if used properly, is to kill.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Watch enough zombie movies and you take a slightly more paranoid view towards home security.









So.... your home security is based on Zombie movies? O.K.

Well, as long as we know what we have to work with...

...

...


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Um yes but that was with a machete or large knife IIRC, not a sword and I am not really sure what your point is. All kinds of crazy things are used as weapons rather than for their primary purpose.

I was pretty much making the point that concern about weapons is not a merely US thing since you'd kind of dismissed her point as if it were a solely US problem. We have school shootings up here as well. I do prefer Canada's approach to gun control and feel safer but it's not like it's a utopian non-violent society.

I don't believe gun play is a lot worse than sword play, but I am still more comfortable with sword play myself.


----------



## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I was pretty much making the point that concern about weapons is not a merely US thing since you'd kind of dismissed her point as if it were a solely US problem. We have school shootings up here as well. I do prefer Canada's approach to gun control and feel safer but it's not like it's a utopian non-violent society.

I don't believe gun play is a lot worse than sword play, but I am still more comfortable with sword play myself.

Oh okay
Well yes things happen here too clearly. But I personally feel a heck of a lot safer in Canada than when I lived in the US with respect to gun safety and general saftey. The culture around guns was just different.
When I was in highschool 25 years ago (omg I feel old) there were regular weekly gun/weapons searches in the student lockers in the schools I went to in Fla.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
So.... your home security is based on Zombie movies? O.K.

Well, as long as we know what we have to work with...

...

...

Our home security was created under the belief that one day the velociraptors will escape their island.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

My thoughts on guns are pretty mixed. I will never own one and I don't want one in my house. This directly relates to the fact that as a child my father held one to my head and asked me if I deserved to live. So I have some issues.

That said, if my children want toy guns that will be fine. My ghosts are not their problem. I have a very close friend who is a significant gun enthusiast. He will be teaching my children gun safety from a very young age. I anticipate taking the kids (one at a time) to a gun range from when they are very young so that they can learn to understand the amount of force and power involved with using guns. I think that ignorance is dangerous. A little bit of knowledge is even more dangerous than ignorance. So there will be lots and lots of gun training and indoctrination into safe gun handling.

I'm also a pretty rabid defender of the 2nd Amendment even though I will never be a gun owner. I absolutely see the value of them.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

PeainthePod has asked repeatedly for stats and links, so I wanted to provide at least one. Might have time to post more later.

Study done in the _Journal of Trauma_, August 1998, entitled, "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home."

from the abstract:

Quote:

RESULTS: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

CONCLUSIONS: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
OP: If you're still reading, I wanted to make one point that I think I hinted at earlier, but didn't state explicitly.

I don't control my children's pretend play. I just don't do it. Barring someone being hurt in real life (physically, such as sword play turning into "hit each other with sticks" or emotionally, as in exclusionary "we don't want you in this game, because you suck at it" stuff), I let them play. It feels really...icky to me to try to control what someone else is allowed to think, pretend, or imagine. To _me_, that's a more...antisocial? act than pointing a stick at a friend and saying, "bang, bang - you're dead" (not that I ever heard ds1 use those words), if that friend has no problem with the game. Other obviously disagree with me, but it's something I have strong feelings about.

ETA: "Antisocial" isn't quite the word I'm looking for, but I'm going to let it stand until I can figure out what word I really want.

OP here







. Yes, Storm Bride, this makes a lot of sense, and is pretty much how I feel about their play as well. As I stated earlier, I think I'm going to air on the side of allowing the play and teaching the rules and safety and ramifications of guns.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Karenwith4* 
Very very different scenario - and culture IMO in the States.
When I lived there as a highschool student I encountered guns in a number of situations where they would have been accessible to a child. Freaked the ahem out of me.
Karen

And I never did, and my state has very lax gun laws. People out here have guns to hunt, and the utmost safety is used with them. I knew families had guns that I went to visit, but I never ever found one. Nor did any of the friends I had.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
In case of zombie attack, you'd really want to have both firearms *and* a sword-type weapon.

Although this thread has me pondering the wisdom of installing a swimming pool. Or perhaps a moat.

Thanks for keeping it lighthearted







.

Well, everyone, I am still running all of this over in my head and would really appreciate my thread not getting shut down since I'm still reading over it again.

I was asking more about gun play and toy guns than real guns, the background was included so that you would know what particular ideas about guns my 3.5yo has been exposed to and what is fueling his play, not to specifically ask what you feel about personal gun ownership or gun laws. But thanks for the input anyway, since I had not read some of the stats on it. We personally will not be having a gun in the home (my DH's choice for a variety of reasons) but I don't have a problem with other people having them.

And since DS decided to use his foam sword as a gun this morning, it seems like sort of a lost cause anyway.


----------



## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

From the AAP statement:

Quote:

Research in several US urban areas indicates that a gun stored in the home is associated with a threefold increase in the risk of homicide and a fivefold increase in the risk of suicide.
The studies referred to are these:
Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Rushforth NB, Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home. N Engl J Med 1993; 329:1084-1091 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
Bailey JE, Kellermann AL, Somes GW, Banton JG, Rivara FP, Rushforth NP Risk factors for violent death of women in the home. Arch Intern Med 1997; 157:777-782 [Abstract/Free Full Text]
Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. N Engl J Med 1992; 327:467-472 [Abstract]


----------



## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 
I was asking more about gun play and toy guns than real guns, the background was included so that you would know what particular ideas about guns my 3.5yo has been exposed to and what is fueling his play, not to specifically ask what you feel about personal gun ownership or gun laws. But thanks for the input anyway, since I had not read some of the stats on it. We personally will not be having a gun in the home (my DH's choice for a variety of reasons) but I don't have a problem with other people having them.

And since DS decided to use his foam sword as a gun this morning, it seems like sort of a lost cause anyway.









No more real gun stats from me. Just wanted to provide them since they had been asked for.









As for gun play, I was once in the "staunchly against it!" camp, but now think allowing it is better. I think play is how kids process things, and I don't want to limit that. (I do agree with the only consensual players rule for the comfort of other kids.)

I also have never been convinced of any link between gun play as children (or violent video games as teens, for that matter) and attitude towards guns and violence as adults.


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

I used to love to play with those little cap guns that looked like old six-shooters from the cowboy movies:
http://www.moretoyguns.com/Merchant2...ry_Code=Cap150

We had the kind of guns that "shot" the long rolls of caps and ones that "shot" the ring caps. Yes, we shot each other. No, none of us has ever picked up a real gun and shot anybody. I truly don't believe that in one generation kids have lost the ability to define what's "real" and what's "play". We always knew it was play, and that real guns were not to be messed with. I guess it depends on the child.

I did have another cousin (not one that used to play guns with me) that died from a gunshot woound as a teenager. He and his foster brother decided to skip school one day to reinact something they saw in a movie. They didn't think the gun was loaded. It was.

I think gun safety is a valuable tool to give any person, whether you own guns or not. And maybe showing an appropiately aged child/teen how to be safe around a gun, including letting them see and handle an unloaded one, might take the mystery out of it so they won't be tempted to try to handle one that might not be properly secured.


----------



## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Our home security was created under the belief that one day the velociraptors will escape their island.

Sooooo, basically, you have a T-rex tied up in your backyard. In which case, my sons will want to visit asap.


----------



## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

We dont know anyone with guns, and ds doesnt watch TV so has never seen them there, but yet ONE time seeing kids play 'shooting' at the playground, and he has been making weapons ever sense!









I HATE guns/weapons of any kind, and I constantly have to tell ds to dissasemble his 'weapon' (usually he cuts one out of paper), or 'throw away' his 'gun' (his hand used as a weapon)

He is not allowed to play with weapons of any kind, even at friends houses (most of his friends this is not an issue, but the ones that do have toy swords and things put them away when we come over and its not a big deal), but it is VERY hard to regulate/explain to him WHY weapons are not toys, and playing 'kill someone/something' is not o.k. (we are vegetarian so this applys to animals too). Even his squirt gun is shaped like a turtle and refered to as a 'squirter' not a gun.

Camping last night there was a bear 3 feet from me on the picnic table, and today ds keeps saying he wish he had a gun to shoot the bear! The poor bear didnt do a thing, we were sleeping in his woods after all, and it had no interest in us anyway (we just went and sat in the car until it left, a little scary, but we were safe!)

I dont know how to discourage it any differently, but what Im doing doesnt work, he still makes weapons out of everything.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Okay, just reading your post and responding- I don't really have the time to read 7 pages of responses! Anyway, I'm speaking from personal experience here. I have grown up in a household with guns, and my children have been in households that have guns. They are everywhere even if you don't realize it.
So the question is about playing around with toy guns and shooting people? It sounds like there are two issues here: One is that you don't like the play shooting (and especially being the target), and the other is that you are worried that the play shooting might lead to a real shooting in the case that he actually gets a hold of a gun?

First, I cannot underscore the importance of teaching gun safety. Most likely, you have been in several houses with guns and haven't even known about it. Many gun owners choose not to disclose that they own guns, and some gun owners may not be very cautious about gun storage. Chances are, your ?grandfather? (or was it your DS's grandfather?) is a great person to teach this. This is how we've dealt with it in our household. We, of course, give the whole schpeel about how if someone is hit by a bullet it can maim or kill them. My oldest has seen some violent media (not a part of the gun safety training), so he gets the point, and we're quick to point out that in real life the person shot does not just get up and walk away. We've talked about it at length, that if a trigger is pulled, the bullet has the capacity to kill. THere are some basic safety rules, I'm sure you can find a comprehensive list of these online.
The first rule that applies to every child is:
If you see a gun, and you think it might be real, DO NOT TOUCH IT. Run and get an adult. Even if it might be a toy gun but you're not sure.
The general rules that apply to young and old:
Treat each and every gun as if it's loaded, even if you think it isn't.
Do not point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it (clarification here is needed for a 3 yo- maybe simply "never point a gun at people or animals")
Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointing the gun at what you want to shoot (this is called trigger control)
Always point the gun at the floor when you are looking at it (muzzle control)

If those rules were always followed, no one would ever get unintentionally shot. You can drop a gun and it won't go off. The only thing that will make a gun go off is if you pull the trigger while it's loaded and "cocked" (there's a round in the chamber) with the safety off.

That basic education, given as occasional reminders (in the same way that you might randomly quiz him on what he would do if he got lost) is only part of what I consider to be a true safety course on firearms. The second part isn't for the squeamish, but I consider it to be very important as well (and yes, I think 3 is an okay age for this, but you're his mom so you know best).

We all know that kids like to explore what intrigues them. And if something is completely prohibited, then it's even more interesting. That's why I consider it to be almost as important to let the little one actually handle a gun IF HE'S INTERESTED. Have someone who is completely familiar with the gun unload it, and double check that it's unloaded (no round in the chamber or magazine). Do this in front of the kid while talking through the gun safety rules again. Then carefully hand the gun to the child, reminding him of the rules (tell an adult IMMEDIATELY if you see a gun; never touch a gun unless I'm present; when handling a gun, keep the muzzle down and finger off the trigger; treat every gun as if it's loaded). Let him look at the gun, making sure that he's following the rules while he does so. Then, let him point the gun at an inanimate object and attempt to pull the trigger. Put the gun away carefully after he's done exploring, and remind him of the rules again. Then let him know that anytime he wants to look at the gun, you will try to say yes, but he ALWAYS needs to ask and you must be present. Keep the gun under lock and key. Whenever he wants to look at the gun, try to say "yes" and then repeat the rules as he's looking at it.

This little exercise is beneficial in a few ways.
It helps to satisfy his curiosity about what a real gun looks and feels like.
It brings the issue out into the open, facilitating further discussion.
Having him actually pull the trigger allows you to see when he's actually physically capable of doing so (though keep in mind that guns vary in this respect, but your average 3 yo isn't going to have the strength or hand size to pull the trigger on your average gun).
Actually handling the gun and practicing the safety rules will help to cement them in his mind.

As far as playing with toy guns, I view this as inevitable. I don't really think that refusing to let him have a toy gun is going to help keep him from being hurt by a real one (knowing the rules and keeping the lines of communication open are much more likely to prevent injury or death). But if being "shot" or seeing him point "guns" at other people or animals makes you feel icky, maybe you could tell him so. Maybe you could express that you know he's just playing, and it's just a toy, but when he does that you can't help but think of what real guns do to real people. I've read the "Playful Parenting" take on playing with toy guns (making it a kissing gun), and while I think that has its merits, it left an icky feeling my stomach as well because I consider this to be a very sober topic. So I would try to be honest with him about it.


----------



## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Watch enough zombie movies and you take a slightly more paranoid view towards home security.









Oh, now, this sounds like me.








I sometimes wile away my time planning how to respond to a zombie apocalypse.









Actually, this thread started out great. I've been wondering where I want to stand on the whole play gun issue as DS1, nearly 3, has been interested in guns for a while now. He got interested in swords pretty young - around 18 months (we let him watch The Princess Bride). Now he's seen bigger kids playing guns (especially water guns, as it's now summer), and I have to deal with it.

My dad was vehemently against gun play, in a kind of emotional, disgusted way. I still played, but I've always carried this weird guilt about it. I don't want to make a knee-jerk policy. I've been doing like what some other PPs discussed - gun play is allowed, but you can only shoot targets (trees, posts, etc.), unless you are playing WITH other people who have AGREED to play. Basically, he has to ask and receive permission before shooting anyone.

I don't want to discourage the pretend play. I think there's value in seeing a violent (play) act through - it gives kids an opportunity to think about the consequences. I discuss with DS that shooting hurts people, and he doesn't want to hurt people. But I think gun play is also a way of exerting control over a powerful force that kids are trying to understand.

Good thread.

ETA: I am also on the side that there's not a huge difference between swords and guns.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaoirseC* 
Okay, just reading your post and responding- I don't really have the time to read 7 pages of responses! Anyway, I'm speaking from personal experience here. I have grown up in a household with guns, and my children have been in households that have guns. They are everywhere even if you don't realize it.
So the question is about playing around with toy guns and shooting people? It sounds like there are two issues here: One is that you don't like the play shooting (and especially being the target), and the other is that you are worried that the play shooting might lead to a real shooting in the case that he actually gets a hold of a gun?

First, I cannot underscore the importance of teaching gun safety. Most likely, you have been in several houses with guns and haven't even known about it. Many gun owners choose not to disclose that they own guns, and some gun owners may not be very cautious about gun storage. Chances are, your ?grandfather? (or was it your DS's grandfather?) is a great person to teach this. This is how we've dealt with it in our household. We, of course, give the whole schpeel about how if someone is hit by a bullet it can maim or kill them. My oldest has seen some violent media (not a part of the gun safety training), so he gets the point, and we're quick to point out that in real life the person shot does not just get up and walk away. We've talked about it at length, that if a trigger is pulled, the bullet has the capacity to kill. THere are some basic safety rules, I'm sure you can find a comprehensive list of these online.
The first rule that applies to every child is:
If you see a gun, and you think it might be real, DO NOT TOUCH IT. Run and get an adult. Even if it might be a toy gun but you're not sure.
The general rules that apply to young and old:
Treat each and every gun as if it's loaded, even if you think it isn't.
Do not point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it (clarification here is needed for a 3 yo- maybe simply "never point a gun at people or animals")
Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointing the gun at what you want to shoot (this is called trigger control)
Always point the gun at the floor when you are looking at it (muzzle control)

If those rules were always followed, no one would ever get unintentionally shot. You can drop a gun and it won't go off. The only thing that will make a gun go off is if you pull the trigger while it's loaded and "cocked" (there's a round in the chamber) with the safety off.

That basic education, given as occasional reminders (in the same way that you might randomly quiz him on what he would do if he got lost) is only part of what I consider to be a true safety course on firearms. The second part isn't for the squeamish, but I consider it to be very important as well (and yes, I think 3 is an okay age for this, but you're his mom so you know best).

We all know that kids like to explore what intrigues them. And if something is completely prohibited, then it's even more interesting. That's why I consider it to be almost as important to let the little one actually handle a gun IF HE'S INTERESTED. Have someone who is completely familiar with the gun unload it, and double check that it's unloaded (no round in the chamber or magazine). Do this in front of the kid while talking through the gun safety rules again. Then carefully hand the gun to the child, reminding him of the rules (tell an adult IMMEDIATELY if you see a gun; never touch a gun unless I'm present; when handling a gun, keep the muzzle down and finger off the trigger; treat every gun as if it's loaded). Let him look at the gun, making sure that he's following the rules while he does so. Then, let him point the gun at an inanimate object and attempt to pull the trigger. Put the gun away carefully after he's done exploring, and remind him of the rules again. Then let him know that anytime he wants to look at the gun, you will try to say yes, but he ALWAYS needs to ask and you must be present. Keep the gun under lock and key. Whenever he wants to look at the gun, try to say "yes" and then repeat the rules as he's looking at it.

This little exercise is beneficial in a few ways.
It helps to satisfy his curiosity about what a real gun looks and feels like.
It brings the issue out into the open, facilitating further discussion.
Having him actually pull the trigger allows you to see when he's actually physically capable of doing so (though keep in mind that guns vary in this respect, but your average 3 yo isn't going to have the strength or hand size to pull the trigger on your average gun).
Actually handling the gun and practicing the safety rules will help to cement them in his mind.

As far as playing with toy guns, I view this as inevitable. I don't really think that refusing to let him have a toy gun is going to help keep him from being hurt by a real one (knowing the rules and keeping the lines of communication open are much more likely to prevent injury or death). But if being "shot" or seeing him point "guns" at other people or animals makes you feel icky, maybe you could tell him so. Maybe you could express that you know he's just playing, and it's just a toy, but when he does that you can't help but think of what real guns do to real people. I've read the "Playful Parenting" take on playing with toy guns (making it a kissing gun), and while I think that has its merits, it left an icky feeling my stomach as well because I consider this to be a very sober topic. So I would try to be honest with him about it.

Wow, well said and I second all the advice. My sister and I grew up with 2 or 3 guns in our home and we were taught just about every single rule that's mentioned in this post. We were taught at a very early age (maybe 5 or 6 yo) all of these rules and you know what? It saved us dearly as we got older.

There was more than one occasion I was exposed to peers holding and 'playing' with their parents' guns and on those occasions I knew to leave the room at once.

My dad had us practice shooting with an air gun (bb gun) when we were still in elementary school. I'm so thankful as I look back for his straightforward approach and I think its the only approach that'll prepare your children for inevitable situations.

Also, I have no issue with DS playing guns as long as he's "shooting" people that are playing along. I remember cap guns and small guns and playing games with all the neighborhood kids growing up and had a blast (and I was otherwise a super gentle and shy gal!)


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

We're not a fan of guns in the house. I don't know anyone outside of military/hunters or law enforcement who owns one and they're super duper careful.

Growing up, for me, having a gun was a sure way to get killed or arrested. Having a fake gun that was not brightly coloured could even get you there. We had super soakers and colourful waterguns, but that was about it. Funny, no one in my community as kids really played gun related games (other than waterfights). I guess when you hear gun fire and see police investigations regularly, it has a different effect on you and your play.

Elsewhere in the same city, in a more quiet community, MIL out and out banned them from her house. Somewhere in our basement, there is a giant branch. It's hand painted and has all sorts of knobs and screws twisted into it. Each one controls a "death ray" or "freeze ray" or "machine gun". DH of course had to save his creation. I think kids will make due if they are denied. DH was denied Star Wars toys when he was a kid, so he ended up pretending some gorilla from a Fisher Price playset was Chewie's long lost cousin to play with the kids on the playground. His mom wonders where DH gets his gift of Blarney, I say she created it. lol

I don't like taking too many hard line stances on issues, DH interestingly enough is more rigid than me. I don't really see it being a big deal with my oldest based on his personality. My younger guy is a bit more rough and tumble. I have to say this thread has given me a lot of food for thought if the time comes when we have to deal with my kids and guns.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
My dad was vehemently against gun play, in a kind of emotional, disgusted way. I still played, but I've always carried this weird guilt about it

This is one of the reasons I wouldn't even consider banning gun play. I don't want to make my child feel guilty over what's going on in their heads. Provided the play is consensual and nobody is actually being hurt, I see _very_ little difference between what a child is doing in pretend play, and what they're thinking in their own heads. I've never been able to see myself controlling what a child is pretending as being a whole lot different than trying to control what they think and imagine, and that's a level of control I'm not interested in having over anybody. (Yes - I try to guide my children's thoughts, values, etc...but I see a big difference between guidance and control. I'm not in the thought control business.)


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
(Yes - I try to guide my children's thoughts, values, etc...but I see a big difference between guidance and control. I'm not in the thought control business.)

definitely agree. if something in my kids' play disturbs me, i talk with them about it after the fact. I certainly don't shame them or try to make them feel as if they play was wrong, but sometimes I ask if they've seen those themes before (for example, if I saw my kids playing out a domestic violence scene as mentioned before, I would ask why they thought to play that way). Simply asking (rather than immediately giving an opinion about what you see) opens so many doors of communication. For example, my 6 yo son came up with "black people want to kill us just because we're not black"! I had to handle that one VERY carefully. We live in the midwest, and there just aren't that many POC here (besides NA). And I don't think he really knew what "black people" are- when he wants to describe people who are black, he generally describes their hair color and says they have darker, brown skin. Anyone, if I had immediately voiced my opinion about racism or snapped back "no they don't!" I never would have found out that he heard that in a song on the radio, and I would have missed the opportunity to explain to him about racism, etc.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
PeainthePod has asked repeatedly for stats and links, so I wanted to provide at least one. Might have time to post more later.

Study done in the _Journal of Trauma_, August 1998, entitled, "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home."

from the abstract:

Thank you odenata, I still haven't had time to really look any up.

And also thank you because I completely forgot about suicides. That of course further increases the number of non-self-defense uses of legal guns that occur with much greater frequency than legal guns used for self-defense.

I simply look at the fact that not even the NRA or other gun rights groups tries to seriously make the point that legal guns are more likely to be used in self-defense than some other action involving someone you know. If they thought they could make that data work for them, they'd be all over it. But they don't even try. It would be ludicrous. Police reports all over the country (including suicides reports and reports of self-defense shootings) back that up in the simplest way, but there are many other studies as well like the ones you cite.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
Thank you odenata, I still haven't had time to really look any up.

And also thank you because I completely forgot about suicides. That of course further increases the number of non-self-defense uses of legal guns that occur with much greater frequency than legal guns used for self-defense.

I simply look at the fact that not even the NRA or other gun rights groups tries to seriously make the point that legal guns are more likely to be used in self-defense than some other action involving someone you know. If they thought they could make that data work for them, they'd be all over it. But they don't even try. It would be ludicrous. Police reports all over the country (including suicides reports and reports of self-defense shootings) back that up in the simplest way, but there are many other studies as well like the ones you cite.

I don't know the stats (have never looked as most of them are USA related and I don't live there), but there is a difference between saying that guns are more likely to be _used_ in self-defense than for X, Y, or Z and saying that _having_ guns/legal gun ownership is safer than not having them.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

So earlier dd1 found a long rectangular wooden stacker and promptly turned it upside down to use it as a gun (a gun that shoots out walnuts







) I immediately thought of this thread!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't know the stats (have never looked as most of them are USA related and I don't live there), but there is a difference between saying that guns are more likely to be _used_ in self-defense than for X, Y, or Z and saying that _having_ guns/legal gun ownership is safer than not having them.

I agree, that's really the point myself and a few others are making.

A huge sector of the pro-gun/2nd Amendment "Right to Bear Arms" arguments for legal guns is that they have a right to defend family and home against intruders and to act in self-defense.

But when you look at the fact that if you have a legal gun in your home, if it's ever used at all against a human, the odds are far far greater that it will NOT be in an act of self-defense against an intruder. Odds are far more likely it will be used against someone you know in a non-self-defense way.

This raises 2 major issues, but only one of them is really at issue in this conversation and that is whether legal guns in the home generally make your home MORE safe or LESS safe. I'm actually *not* advocating that across the board it makes a home less safe. I'm simply pointing out that a large % of people who get the legal gun with visions of self-defense... if the gun ever gets used, they are very likely not to use it in the way they thought they would. And someone they know is likely to be on the receiving end. Which for me is definitely part of my "Is it worth it?" equation.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

I was anti-gun. Then DS at 2 and a half, maybe a month or two older, chewed his piece of toast into a gun-sort-of shape (he'd been to Disneyland and rode Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters a few months before, though I actually didn't realize they'd ridden that, as they *wanted* to ride Astro Orbiter but got turned around, and that's how he got the idea for a "blaster"), and started "bew, bew bew"ing. And that's when I chilled out.

The ONLY types of "guns" he has are "blasters" that don't really exist in the world. Star Wars and Buzz Lightyear, really.

And we talk All The Time about real life and pretend.

And none of us point at each other and shoot; we have to point slightly away, so that no one ever has some barrel pointed at them. (that's how I was raised, but with BB guns and with a brother and stepdad that had handguns and went target-shooting)


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Our house is definitely a no gun household. By that I mean that we have never had any sort of manufactured toy gun in our house, & as adults we certainly don't have any real guns.

However....

Our DS, kind, gentle, pacifist, animal loving to the point of rescuing insects out of the shower before he will use it kind of kid...

Has a whole bloody arsenal of fighter jets and guns made out of lego in his room.

Just the other day, he was looking up the Stealth Bomber on the internet, & reading interesting facts out to me, so clearly he has a real interest in the design of such things and I really can't see how I would ban it, or even discourage his interest. I just live with it, & hope that he decides to build bridges one day.... But he really, truly loves planes. And the idea of bombs, although he assures me that there are no people underneath when the jet drops them. *sigh*


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
You don't need a database to know...

I asked him and he said, "A lot. I couldn't give you an exact figure." YEAH. I think he has over a hundred.

I see you are in Canada, so perhaps you have not had the exquisite joy of meeting one of these types of Americans. I never thought I'd sit in a house with that many guns, I really didn't. C'est la vie!


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I asked him and he said, "A lot. I couldn't give you an exact figure." YEAH. I think he has over a hundred.

I see you are in Canada, so perhaps you have not had the exquisite joy of meeting one of these types of Americans. I never thought I'd sit in a house with that many guns, I really didn't. C'est la vie!

As another Canadian, this discussion has been truly fascinating to me. Personally the only people I know who own guns are those who use them for hunting. Mostly they are older people (uncle, grandfather) but there are some in my age range in my hometown (very small rural community) that hunt. I don't know anyone here in the city who owns a gun.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
As another Canadian, this discussion has been truly fascinating to me. Personally the only people I know who own guns are those who use them for hunting. Mostly they are older people (uncle, grandfather) but there are some in my age range in my hometown (very small rural community) that hunt. I don't know anyone here in the city who owns a gun.

There are some "crazy" Americans who stockpile, but they are few and far between (and unlikely to tell you about it). Others like to collect- it's like an investment because the price of a gun almost never goes down (provided it's taken care of), and ammo has been going up precipitously. Antique guns, however, will also increase in value.


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## alis (Aug 14, 2010)

My husband is a police officer and we have a gun in the house (service weapon). Properly stored. I see no issue with my son wanting to learn how to shoot when he is older. Guns are not evil in our home - but proper use, safety, and respect for the law is.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I asked him and he said, "A lot. I couldn't give you an exact figure." YEAH. I think he has over a hundred.

I see you are in Canada, so perhaps you have not had the exquisite joy of meeting one of these types of Americans. I never thought I'd sit in a house with that many guns, I really didn't. C'est la vie!

I know people who own that many guns, but they still know exactly how many, and what types, they own. Also American, here.


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## alis (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm Canadian and I also work in a police department - I do firearms registration queries on a daily basis. A lot of Canadians, including in the city, have {registered} guns in their home. A lot more than the average Canadian would think. Unless someone is a very close friend or relative, they probably don't say.

It is very foolish to brag about your "stash" of guns (legal or not, for hunting or self-defense, doesn't matter) - that is how some home robberies occur - so very few people talk about it.

Again, safety, safety, safety. Our son would likely never even find our gun safe as it is hidden - and even if he did - he would need both a key and the combination code (which even I do not know), plus be able to then go to the other hidden safe and find the magazines!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
I know people who own that many guns, but they still know exactly how many, and what types, they own. Also American, here.

Oh, yay, that fun old Internet argument.

I know someone who does X.
Well I know LOTS of people who don't!
Okay, well my friend still does X.
Well that's stupid.
He still does it.
I don't know ANYBODY who does X.
My point is, it happens.
Are you sure? I don't believe you because that's not within my realm of experience.
Well, that's good for you, then.
No, really, lots of people don't X.
Good for them. I know someone who does.
Well that's not common.
It was just an example.
Well it's a stupid example, because not EVERYBODY does it.
Um...


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Oh, yay, that fun old Internet argument.

I know someone who does X.
Well I know LOTS of people who don't!
Okay, well my friend still does X.
Well that's stupid.
He still does it.
I don't know ANYBODY who does X.
My point is, it happens.
Are you sure? I don't believe you because that's not within my realm of experience.
Well, that's good for you, then.
No, really, lots of people don't X.
Good for them. I know someone who does.
Well that's not common.
It was just an example.
Well it's a stupid example, because not EVERYBODY does it.
Um...

Oh hell, I wasn't saying that you were lying or using a stupid example. I was just pointing out that it there are definitely Americans out there that are not like your BIL at all. I knew I should've put a disclaimer on my post to this effect...


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happysmileylady* 

Having said that...I do 100% believe that if there are going to be real guns where the kids are, it's way way way safer to expose them to the guns and teach them proper gun safety than it is to try to pretend the guns don't exist. To me, it's like water safety...it's safer to teach a child to swim than to never bring the child around water.

I completely agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 

Guns for us are not toys, any more than a chainsaw or a power saw is a toy. They're extremely useful tools that, used unsafely, can kill human beings. So I don't think toy guns that aren't brightly colored neon water guns will ever be welcome in our home. I don't want to confuse our children and I don't want them to associate guns with careless play. Not that shooting isn't a fun sport! But like many other sports, it must be done with the proper equipment and only after taking the proper precautions.

Not teaching your children the basic rules of gun safety just because you yourself do not own guns, seems to me to be as shortsighted as not teaching them to swim just because you don't own a pool or go to the beach. Guns are everywhere and knowing to

*Stop! Don't Touch! Leave the Area! Tell an Adult!*

could literally save a child's life.


Yup.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
I don't believe that a woman lying raped and strangled to death with her own pantyhose is morally superior to one who is explaining to the police why that same rapist is lying gunshot on her bedroom floor.

Again, the right to defend oneself from harm is sacred to my family, and to most others I know who are firearms owners. We do not believe that an attacker has more right to safety and security than his intended victim. You are welcome to disagree, and I assure you that if it makes you so uncomfortable, we will never use our guns to defend you and your family.









As the victim of a 3-day rape, I would have loved to have had a chance to shoot the cracked-up a$$hole who raped me and made me lose my baby (6 mos pg). Chances are very high that if I'd been carrying I would have never been hurt.

This reminds me of an email I received recently. A neighbor squabble that ended in one neighbor posting a sign that read, "My next door neighbor wants to ban all guns. Their house in NOT ARMED. Out of respect for their opinions I promise not to use my guns to protect them!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaoirseC* 
There are some "crazy" Americans who stockpile, but they are few and far between (and unlikely to tell you about it). Others like to collect- it's like an investment because the price of a gun almost never goes down (provided it's taken care of), and ammo has been going up precipitously. Antique guns, however, will also increase in value.

My FIL is one of those "crazy" Americans who stockpile. (Um, that could have been more respectfully worded, btw.) He has hundreds. He is an avid gun collector. When he dies, all of his guns will be split between my dh and his sister. If they sold all of them, plus all his ammo, we would be seriously well-off financially. If the SHTF, I sure as heck know where our family would go!









We have 8 guns in our home. We live in the country, and I used one to protect my livestock just last week. My dh saved one of our birds from IN THE MOUTH of a predator by shooting the predator. Our livestock feeds our family and I would never ever apologize for putting our family's needs before someone else's fears. My oldest dd uses a .22 rifle to dispatch our rabbits, about every 3 months when it's butcher day. My dh uses a 9 mm to dispatch a goat or a pig for butchering. My dh just recently got a working replica of a black powder pistol (think Yosemite Sam). My 2 middle children received their first .22 rifle from their Grandpa, and had a blast (pun intended) shooting holes in old freezers so that I could use them for growing our vegetables. We have a very safe place to shoot and teach our kids from a very young age about gun safety. Just yesterday my 3 yo said, "Mommy, I can never ever touch a gun w/out you or daddy helping me." She was watching her dad ready his shotgun because we're having a horrible problem w/coyotes, and the dogs were going nuts.

I'm not arguing anyone's right to decide for themselves what is best for their family. The main reason we have guns is not to protect our family, but to protect our livestock. Many a time I've been very glad to be able to do so.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
Oh hell, I wasn't saying that you were lying or using a stupid example. I was just pointing out that it there are definitely Americans out there that are not like your BIL at all. I knew I should've put a disclaimer on my post to this effect...

Then why even quote my post?

I guess I felt that somehow you were posting a counter-point... and I don't believe the fact that different people live differently is a counter-point to "such and such exists, and it's scary".

I mean... we don't even OWN a gun and we're Americans. LOL. So, retroactive disclaimer has been registered and I take it back.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chicky2* 
My FIL is one of those "crazy" Americans who stockpile. (Um, that could have been more respectfully worded, btw.)

Sorry, didn't mean to offend at all. I don't actually consider "those" Americans to be crazy (I know several who fit into this category but appear totally sane to me and happen to be my friends), but I guess I was just recognizing that I know they come off that way. Personally, "stockpiling" guns, ammo, and food seems like a perfectly rational thing to do.


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## Chicky2 (May 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SaoirseC* 
Sorry, didn't mean to offend at all. I don't actually consider "those" Americans to be crazy (I know several who fit into this category but appear totally sane to me and happen to be my friends), but I guess I was just recognizing that I know they come off that way. Personally, "stockpiling" guns, ammo, and food seems like a perfectly rational thing to do.

No problem. And actually, my dh's side of the family probably could be called crazy, rofl. His mom was certifiable, but his dad really isn't.







He is a jailer where he lives, and lemme tell ya, NO ONE would dare go to his house unannounced. And he is bigger on gun safety than anyone I've ever known. We are about to take a long vacation to his place, and we'll be doing ALOT of shooting. Very good opportunity for our kids to learn even more about gun safety.


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## SaoirseC (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chicky2* 
No problem. And actually, my dh's side of the family probably could be called crazy, rofl. His mom was certifiable, but his dad really isn't.







He is a jailer where he lives, and lemme tell ya, NO ONE would dare go to his house unannounced. And he is bigger on gun safety than anyone I've ever known. We are about to take a long vacation to his place, and we'll be doing ALOT of shooting. Very good opportunity for our kids to learn even more about gun safety.









Most of my Mom's side of the family is "crazy" (some certifiable). My dad's side is the complete opposite (well, crazy in a very different way).


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