# Playground Vent



## BarnMomma (Dec 12, 2008)

We live in a somewhat uppity suburban town which drives me crazy (hence why we're selling the house and trying to move rural)but it comes with a very nice, clean park and playground for the kids. I try to take DS there twice a week just so he has access to kids. He's not in school yet and the poor kid spends all of this time with adults.

But I HATE the stupid playground. I find it stressful and I usually end up leaving so tense and upset and wondering what i should have done differently.

Here's why:
90% of the kids at the playground are there with nannys. The nannys all gather on two benches and gab and read and laugh and do anything and everything other than watch the kids they are there with. The remaining 10% are moms who are doing the same thing on another group of benches. Most of the kids there are between the ages of 18 months and 5 years. So in other words a yound enough crowd that supervision is required.

And then there's me- the weirdo mom who plays with her child or keeps a close watchful eye from a distance to let him explore and/or play with the other children. I don't hover but I keep close- those sand fights can break out in a matter of seconds...

But it's stressful. I end up being the ONLY adult offering any kind of supervision.

My DS I should mention is a very sensitive and easy going child. He will be the one the bully pushes down. He will be the one who gets his toy snatched from his hands by the agressive child. And he sort oof just takes it in stride. Frankly, we're working on having him stick up for himself but it's such a confusing lesson.

So anyway....here's a perfect example of my frustration today.

DS was given a whole bunch of new toys to play in the sandbox with. We marked them with our last name and DS was fully aware that when we bring the toys to the sandbox, he has to share because often we've used other kids toys. No problem. Off we go.

5 minutes after we're there 3 other children show up. One girl brings her own batch of sand toys, and two others just dive right in and take DS's toys. All nannys go sit on the nanny bench on the opposite end of the playground. Within minutes the kids are grabbing toys out of DS's hands and refusing to share, one is throwing sand, the other is getting territorial about hole she's digging and is screaming at anyone who comes within her vicinity. Ds is sort of getting the brunt of all of this. What choice do I have but to constantly remind the kids not to throw sand, to share, and to take turns, and to speak nicely to each other? And at the same time encourage my own son to NOT let the kids snatch toys from his hands while at the same time encouraging him to share? Meanwhile the other kids won't share the things they brought with them and pile them up and block them from anyone who tries to go near them. So then I feel like well fine, why should my DS have to share if that's how it's going to be? It's like...my head is spinning...and then I'm looking around for SOMEONE to back me up or step in and all I see are nannys or moms having a good old time yucking it up on the other end of the park.

If it's not this scenario, it's something else.

I've tried taking DS to other playgrounds but he likes this one because the other ones all mostly have big kids, or so he says.

Anyway, just venting becaseu I left today feeling stressed again and wondering if I should have handled things differently. Ds always seems to have a good time regardless and always asks to return but I"m the one who gets so frustrated.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

In that situation I would be a lot more blunt with the other kids, but I'm like that. "You are being rude and if you don't stop you cannot use our toys." Or "If you will not share your toys then you have no need to share our toys. Go play with your own."

I'm really oriented towards not being stepped on though. It's a big deal to me that my kids not get used to being stomped on. Boundaries are a big deal and hard to learn.


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## KimberlyD0 (Mar 8, 2009)

I'm that parents sitting back and watching my children (2 and 5) play on their own. The playground here is made for very young children. I tend to let them play one their own (free play) and only intervine when they need something or they are doing something they can't/shouldn't do on their own. Of course if they want me to play with them I'm there too, but that doesn't happen much lol

DD#1 is out going and extreamly independent, always has been, and actually gets really upset if I get into her space. DD#2 is more sensitive and shy. She'll come running back to me often just to be assured I am still there, but I find she plays better on her own then she does with me. Like she's holding back.

I don't know if this is why the other adults in the park do that, but its pretty common here. Wish I had advice you wanted to hear for you. I would mostly just suggest don't get stressed out by it. You can't control what everyone else is doing and you are not responsible for the other children. Keep doing what you find works for you









Maybe I'm just a bad mom







but thats how we were raised too. I also let my kids play outside in the back yard for a few minutes at a time if I need to do something, like got to the bathroom, or make lunch or whatever else. Its all I've ever known and it seems to work for the girls. They play on their own inside pretty well too, while I cook, or do laundry (DD#1 loves to help now







) or just need 5 minutes of down time.


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## nelson (Aug 12, 2008)

I would try a different playground, even if it's out of the way - it could be a little adventure.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't go onto the playground with my children unless needed. TBH, when I see parents "supervising" right on top of the kids, it usually feels more like they're about controlling everything and everyone, rather than just there to let their children explore.

As for the specific instances you mentioned -
I don't blame a child for getting upset if she's digging a hole and others are filling it up. It's hard to learn how to do something you want in a crowd.

The sharing (or not) of toys is one of those lessons we all have to learn. I typically let people go if they need to make a left turn, but I've had to sit for 10 minutes before because no one extended that courtesy to me. Still, I usually let people go before me instead of saying, "well, no one let me go last week, so I'm not going to either." If you believe your son should share, then teach him to share his toys whether the other children share back or not. If it's a huge problem, don't bring toys.

Why do you need to remind the kids to speak nicely to each other? These aren't kids you know. You have no communal child-rearing beliefs with their families. Your job is to deal with your child. If you want to tell them not to speak in a certain way to him, you may (though I don't know how successful you'll be), but it's not your place to police the language of all of the other children.

I think you'd probably enjoy the playground much more if you just relaxed a bit and tried to let your son play on his own. How can he learn anything about how to handle other kids if you're always there?

ETA: If you think a rural setting is going to be better, you'll likely be disappointed. I grew up on a farm, and by age 5, we were outside all the time without supervision. We were expected to handle issues on our own as soon as possible without the adults intervening.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

How old is your DS?


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## HappyMommy2 (Jan 27, 2007)

I agree with not bringing toys. Things at the park should be communal, and ownership just causes problems. I hate it when our friends visit and allow their kids to bring one special toy -- it simply causes problems.

I also agree with being the "park police" if necessary. I will be that mom that says "no throwing sand" ... If nobody else steps up, I will do it to protect my child.

I don't tell them to share, take turns, or talk nicely. I only tell my child these things.

I draw the line at things that will hurt my child. Otherwise, it is not my business, and I just redirect.

I will just encourage my child to go to a different plaything if the sandbox gets too crazy.

You will find these same issues at most parks! Unless you can find an empty one!


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

Thats one of the reasons I try to visit parks on off hours. I have two (18 months and 3) that I take the the park 1-2 times a day. I do "hover" over the 18 month old because shes a regular little daredevil so Im there to make sure she doesn't hurt herself. I don't interfer with her play until she needs help or wants me to. My 3 year old is really independant at the park so Im just there if she gets herself into a pickle (likes tries to go across the mokey bars and ends up missing one) where she needs help getting out of it.

Other kids, I don't really interact with them unless its to stop someone from getting hurt or they are being bullies to another child (blocking them from playing on the equipment, hitting, using foul language etc). If they continue on acting like this I tell their parent they need to do something about whatever behavior that the child was doing. For example, I went one time and there was 3 children on the play equipment other than mine. One of them decided that the equipment was her private property and NO ONE could touch it but her so she started hitting and pushing the other children. After stepping in twice where she tried to push my 18 month old off the slide I told her mother she needed to step in and take care of her daughter because it was becoming dangerous for the other children. She got mad at me but went and took care of her child. They ended up leaving because she wouldn't stop hitting/pushing the other children. Im not afraid to tell other people they need to step up and do something about whatever dangerous action their child is doing.
We don't take toys to the park. If the girls want to play with one of their balls there is an open field near our apartment building that we kick around a ball or play T-ball. If other kids come by and want to play its fine but their parents have to be there. Im not going to be resposible for other peoples' children (the field is near a parking lot so lots of cars).


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

We don't bring toys to share and we rarely bring toys at all so I would have no problem with my dd not sharing the toys and with telling other kids to not take my dd's toys. When my dd was about 3 and a half she wanted to play on her own with the other kids and I too became one of the moms sitting on the bench. Before then I only redirected another child if what they were doing negatively impacted my child.


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## Annoia (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

I'm that parents sitting back and watching my children (2 and 5) play on their own. The playground here is made for very young children. I tend to let them play one their own (free play) and only intervine when they need something or they are doing something they can't/shouldn't do on their own. Of course if they want me to play with them I'm there too, but that doesn't happen much lol.

Quote:

I don't go onto the playground with my children unless needed. TBH, when I see parents "supervising" right on top of the kids, it usually feels more like they're about controlling everything and everyone, rather than just there to let their children explore.
Yup. That's me as well. Mine are 2 and 7, and for the most part I just let them be. Sand fights don't even bother me, as long as everyone is a willing participant.







Just kidding. I think sand boxes are NASTY outdoor catboxes. EEUW. That's the one area where I really do micro-manage. Mine don't go near the sandbox (or volley ball pits)

I get a bit frustrated with the (in my mind) helicopter parents (and I'm not saying you are, just saying I notice the hovering parents more than the other parents). Sometimes I wish we had playgrounds like the ones in Berlin and England, where parents weren't allowed







(Actually, I wouldn't go that far. I have to have a visual on my kids at all times. There's an ice-cream truck that comes to the playground that creeps me out).

Here's a cool link to a blog about playgrounds. This page is about a kids-only playground built by kids. The entire blog has some really interesting info on playground safety:

http://publicworkshop.us/?p=194


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
In that situation I would be a lot more blunt with the other kids, but I'm like that. "You are being rude and if you don't stop you cannot use our toys." Or "If you will not share your toys then you have no need to share our toys. Go play with your own."

I'm really oriented towards not being stepped on though. It's a big deal to me that my kids not get used to being stomped on. Boundaries are a big deal and hard to learn.









If a kid is non-verbal, I'd let them have a toy, but I'd tell the older kids to back off.

Also, as the only supervising parent, I'd encourage all the kids to sit right down in the sandbox and get as sandy as possible. But I'm not a nice person.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I really only watch (and somewhat follow around) my youngest, age 3, on the playground when we are on the higher big-kid ones (he likes to follow his older siblings, aged 5-9). Otherwise, I'm right there on the bench trying to relax. I don't actually climb on the equipment, though... DH does at times. Not sure about the toys and sand thing, as we don't tend to frequent parks with sandboxes (hey, our backyard is basically sand/dirt - they can play here), and the only things we tend to bring to the park are balls or kites.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Yeah, I think you're going to find the same behavior at cool urban or folky rural that you do at "uppity suburban" parks. Sorry.

That being said, I draw the line at dangerous things that involve my child. If some kid wants to throw sand on himself (seen it) then that's fine. If he wants to toss sand in my kid's face, I will intervene (BTW, don't be surprised if people get off the bench to come see why some stranger is talking to their kid). I don't play with my kid on the playground because I've never liked playing on playgrounds and my presence has never been requested. If my kid wanted me to play with them on the equipment, I'd probably do one game or so, but...when they were younger, esp. it was nice for my kids to get to run, scream, and play in a safe place where they could feel wild and "free".

I can totally understand being upset when another kid terrorizes your kid. But frankly, what other parents are doing and whether or not the kids are with nannies or moms--isn't your business and is a waste of your energy getting steamed about.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Kids go to the park to play with kids, not thier nannies or parents.
I sit back and watch, unless there is a safety issue.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

That does sound very irritating.

And I think that the posters who said that you had high expectations were being a little unfair. Your child is a toddler, right? I don't think toddlers should be left to play alone by themselves in many circumstances, and they are often going to react to awkward social situations with aggression. That's just the nature of the little beasties! Letting a 5 yo roam around a rural property by himself or with other 5 yos or siblings is waaaay different than plunking five kids under age four down together in a sandbox with limited toys.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I only take sand toys to public places if DS is OK with them not being seen again, not brand new special ones, those are for the sand table at home or the bathtub. If I can, I sit on the bench. I only interfere with other peoples kids if there is an immediate chance of injury (I once caught a kid who was falling off a firepole, I stopped a toddler who stepped on a budgie at the zoo, etc.)

Sure, if DS starts grabbing or hitting or some such I will get up and correct what's going on, but as long as everyone looks happy the play ground is his opportunity to play with other kids or by himself. When he wants to play with mommy, we can do that in the yard.

I say, go sit on the bench and meet those other mommies, you might discover they are a lot less uptight than you thought







.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I say, go sit on the bench and meet those other mommies, you might discover they are a lot less uptight than you thought







.

Seeing as they're sitting away from the nannies, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
Kids go to the park to play with kids, not thier nannies or parents.
I sit back and watch, unless there is a safety issue.

It's 18 month olds to 5 year olds. There is a safety issue, period. Especially if you've got some 2-3 year olds in the phase of hitting to ask for a toy stage.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

I leave our little playground when things get crazy. I also try to go at times when it's empty, intentionally. (but then this is a neighborhood playground and I have a 19 mo. old--it's really small, and I prefer my baby not get knocked out because he got hit by a pre-teen kid on the swings.) Foul language, throwing of rocks, all things I make sure my kids don't do, we leave if somebody else is doing it. (gravel, not sand, so it's painful little rocks to throw. ugh. I miss sand.)


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Yeah, I think you're going to find the same behavior at cool urban or folky rural that you do at "uppity suburban" parks. Sorry.

Not IME. All the city parks around here have parents supervising the under 3 set up close and giving verbal feedback to the well-socialized 4 and 5 year olds. They don't necessarily follow the older kids around, but they move around to different benches/grass depending on where their kids are.

Older kids do sort of roam free, but after being guided in their early years they're more likely to push a little kid on a swing than push them off a slide.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

I think it really depends on how old your DS is. When I read your post I thought he was a toddler, until the end when you said that he tells you he likes this park the best. If he is able to say that, then I think he's able to speak for himself on the playground too. ***ETA:Unless your DS is prone to violence, then I'd stick close. But that doesn't sound like the case from your OP.

I've been more apt to be right by my kids at stuff like this too, but having 2 kids I can't anymore and I see it is actually better this way. They have to learn how to handle it on their own sometime. I am always there to touch base with, and I will make sure that the play all starts off okay (like one kid isn't saying noone is allowed on the play equipment or something dumb like that), but generally I let the kids play.

And the sandbox toys - that's asking for trouble. Sorry. I let the kids have one object they can hold in their hand at a playground (sometimes). If they are done with it they bring it to me. We share toys at the community playgroup (but those are community toys too). I don't want to have the job of teaching the ins and outs of sharing to all the kids on the playground.

I have no problem calling kids on dangerous behavior, but most stuff I just find that families and expectations are so different that intervening is not the right route.

Tjej


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Not IME. All the city parks around here have parents supervising the under 3 set up close and giving verbal feedback to the well-socialized 4 and 5 year olds.

Well, that hasn't been my experience. I live in a borderline area--easy access to rural, burby, and urban play areas--we used to go quite often to all three, and I never saw any real difference in parental behavior between them. Except at the toddler park in an "uppity suburban" neighborhood where people were helicoptering like whoa. I think though that had less to do with the usual people who hang out there and more because there seemed to be a large group meeting there so maybe they were showing off for people?

People are people. I don't think that the neighborhood they live in makes a difference--especially since a lot of people travel to different parks that may not even be in their home neighborhood in the first place, unless it's a private park.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
I think it really depends on how old your DS is. When I read your post I thought he was a toddler, until the end when you said that he tells you he likes this park the best. If he is able to say that, then I think he's able to speak for himself on the playground too.

Well, that might've been a translation. He might've actually said something like "NOOOOOOO baby park! baby park! booooo slide park!!!" Which my dd would be capable of even though her ability to ask "would you like to play?" is limited to taking the other person's hand and her ability to say "I'm still using this toy, you can have it in a minute" is limited to "Noooooooooo! Mine!!!!" and wrenching the toy well out of reach of another hand.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Playground dynamics fascinate me, actually. I have been to playgrounds with my son in multiple countries, and have often thought you could write an entire dissertation on how playground interactions reflect the society at large.... (I was a sociology major







)

Basically, though, play grounds are huge social learning grounds in many ways. There is a lot to be learned about sharing, taking turns, getting your way (or not) in a group setting, how to handle other kids saying "mean" things or bad words or being "mean", other people's toys and food...I could go on and on. I think what you have to do is model for your son the behavior that you want him to have and not really worry about the other kids. In our case, I encouraged sharing, but never forced it. I accepted when another kid didn't want to share sand toys and talked with my DS about how he felt and then reminded him of that the next time he didn't want to share his sand toys - and talked to him about how nice it felt when someone did share with him. We also talked about alternatives and finding ways to make it work for both kids. I modeled what to do when a kid isn't taking turns or is filling a hole he is digging up with sand as he digs it. I feel that kids are learning so many social skills, and that the lessons aren't always nice or fun - but that a kid needs to learn those social skills even when the other person isn't being "nice". And a few times I have also gone over to the mom or nanny and said, in an easy-going way, "Hey - we seem to be having a hard time with XYZ...." and they have always responded by getting up and coming over. I have only done that for pretty major stuff.

I also live in an area where there are usually mostly nannies at the park with kids. I also often see the social dynamic amongst the adults that you describe. You can't really do much about it. But try not to let it stress you out, especially if your kid is enjoying going to the park. And remember that you don't really have to supervise the other kids - you just have to help your son learn to deal with whatever comes his way.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Well, that hasn't been my experience. I live in a borderline area--easy access to rural, burby, and urban play areas--we used to go quite often to all three, and I never saw any real difference in parental behavior between them. Except at the toddler park in an "uppity suburban" neighborhood where people were helicoptering like whoa. I think though that had less to do with the usual people who hang out there and more because there seemed to be a large group meeting there so maybe they were showing off for people?

Or maybe they just recognize that a larger group requires more supervision for a possibly overwhelmed kiddo? And that a larger group makes it necessary to stay closer to maintain line of sight? And maybe the large group had older kids ganging up together to take control of the playground? (Which is why I hate going to the CMI on field trip days, they clique up in their groups and don't seem to notice or care that anyone else is using the museum.)

Oh, wait, I see it's a toddler playground, so not the last bit. But definitely the first then. Especially, as I mentioned before, if you're talking about kids in the prime time for a hitting phase.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Seeing as they're sitting away from the nannies, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

I don't know if that's a fair judgement. My guess is that the nannies know each other very well and probably spend most days at the park hanging out with each other. That can be a hard dynamic to break into. One park I used to take my kids to was occupied almost exclusively with nannies during the week days, and it was difficult to engage them, as they seemed to all know each other and frequently were speaking to each other in a language that I don't speak or understand well (not saying this is the case for all nannies, but this particular group at this particular park were mostly the same ethnicity and spoke the same language). It's probably also the case that most of the moms that are sitting together are also friends.


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## jorona (Nov 23, 2009)

I agree with a lot of the OP's post. Those are some of the same reasons I try to frequent parks during non-busy hours. My son is 18 months old today and between older children mowing him down and DS not understanding his own physical limitations (he really wants to follow 7 year olds across the big equipment) I have a lot of safety issues to look out for. I don't try to play park police with other kids but I will quickly remove my son from a situation that is not safe for him, and that includes other children hitting, throwing sand/toys, etc.

I expect to become less of a "hover-er" as he gets older but I don't think I'll ever be one of the moms who sits oblivious on the sidelines either - that seems to be par for the course around here as well. I understand letting kids roam and explore but a mom burying her head in an iPhone while barely glancing at her kid, who is busy pushing my DS off the slide because he doesn't want to wait, really bothers me.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Seeing as they're sitting away from the nannies, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Just curious - how is one able to tell a nanny from a mommy by just looking, especially if they aren't interacting with the children they are there with. And isn't it also possible that the bench of "mommies" isn't sitting with the "nannies" for reasons that aren't ugly or catty?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Seeing as they're sitting away from the nannies, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

IME, nannies often want to separate as much as the mothers. I wouldn't assume the moms were being snotty, but then, I have a nanny.


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## BarnMomma (Dec 12, 2008)

OP here

FYI- my son will be 3 in July

First, I've been going to the park for a while and I'm fairly certain who is a nanny and who is a mommy.

Second, when another child is speaking in a not nice way TO MY CHILD I'm going to say something. This girl digging the hole was _shrieking_ at my son to "stay away from her, get away, leave me alone" simply when my son turned in her direction making him stand still stunned wondering why this girl is yelling at him. What had he done wrong?

Sand throwing is not safe. If your young child is in the sand box I think parents should be within viewing distance to make sure everyone is playing safely.

Regarding toys- when kids bring toys to the park I think the assumption is that they will be shared. BUT- I always insist that DS ask before he picks up some toy and plays with it. And if brings toys, he understands that he needs to share too. What i didn't like was the child who would not share HER toys, but had no problem taking DS's shovel right out of his hand and using it while her stash of toys sat gaurded behind her. That is when a parent/nanny should have stepped in.

I think parents and nannies should be responsible for their children at the park when they're young like this. They can't work everything out on their own yet and it's the less agressive children, like my son, who get the short end of the stick.

Oh and we've gone on more than occasion to two other parks int he area and DS doesn't like them. He's 3 but he can talk, he's perfectly capable of telling me which park he wants to go to.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
It's 18 month olds to 5 year olds. There is a safety issue, period. Especially if you've got some 2-3 year olds in the phase of hitting to ask for a toy stage.

I agree. I don't think it has anything to do with "hovering" or being a "helicoptor", I think it has to do with looking out for your child's well being. My son is 2 and when I take him to the park, there are often older kids there who run ver fast and are in crowds. and they will run right past ds and knock him over because they just don't seem to know to watch out for younger kids and their parents are off somewhere "letting them play" and not showing them that there are children of all ages and that some of the younger ones aren't able to play in the same ways. And, I don't agree that you take kids to the park to play with kids, and not their nannies or parents, I take him to the park to play with him. to push him on the swing, catch him on the slides, or go down the slides with him, kick a ball around, etc. does that make me a hoverer because I like to play with him? anyhow, to the OP, I would probably continue to do what you are doing, but maybe be a little more blunt about it it as someone else said. and, if someone wouldnt share their toys with my ds, then i wouldnt try and get him to share his regardless unless he wants to and is totally fine with that.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"They can't work everything out on their own yet and it's the less agressive children, like my son, who get the short end of the stick."

I don't think it's fair to ask the other minders / parents to suddenly turn into helicopters because your child is sensitive. He's your sensitive kid so you are going to have to be a buffer for him.

If I were there, here is what might happen with our kids. Now my child is not generally aggressive, but she is assertive and she can get possessive, which we work on. But the park is HER domain so I try not to hover.

My child: Can I use your shovel?
Your child: Okay.
My child: Can I have your bucket?
Your child: Okay.
My child: No, you're doing it wrong, do it THIS way.
Your child: Okay. (Not because he's a pushover, he may just be trying to please her, thinking that enough "okays" will satisfy her.)

A minute later...

My child: I WAS PLAYING WITH THAT!!! (She has set down his shovel and your child picked it up.)
Your child: Keeps digging quietly, not sure what to do with the banshee.
My child, screeching: I WAS PLAYING WITH THAT!!! (Throws down something, sand flies, but no hitting, kicking, or throwing at people.)

I am probably still not going over there. I want her and the child to work it out. I know she's upset but my intervention will make her more upset. I am spotting the baby on the slide, or eyeing her from behind my book as the baby eats grass.

You, on the other hand, feel the need to intervene. You feel your child is being unfairly attacked. You intervene. You feel slighted that I'm "not watching" my child.

The reality is that we have different limits and different parenting styles, each of which is adapted to the needs of our own children.

You need to appreciate that we need to do what our kids need as well. And there are going to be parents who let their kids have more free reign and kids who are, quite simply, rude. If you don't want your child to deal with that at his age, the way to avoid it is to leave or to buffer him.

Not to ask someone else to do that for you.

ETA- I read my post and it sounds really harsh. I do not want you to think there is no point where I would go over there. Physical violence is a limit for me. But I do believe that kids between three and five are learning self-control and I'm not going to stop it before it happens unless it's a pattern. My child has never hit or kicked or pushed another child at the playground so I trust her not to cross that line. If I had a hitter or biter, it would be different.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There's a huge difference between 18-month-olds and 5-year-olds at a park. Up until they turn 3 or there abouts, they need closer supervision. I wouldn't expect the preschool-aged kids to need a lot of supervision, though. Sitting on the bench is fine for an older kid, but for my kids anyway I have had to be really close or they'd try to climb something a bit scary and needed a spotter.

I wouldn't bring toys to a park sandbox unless they're old and you don't care too much what happens to them.

I don't oversee every playground interactin between about 3 and 5 either. Kids can work a lot of stuff out on their own, and IMO that's a valuable thing they learn from playing with other kids. If it gets violent or mean, I get involved, but that doesn't happen often.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"They can't work everything out on their own yet and it's the less agressive children, like my son, who get the short end of the stick."

I don't think it's fair to ask the other minders / parents to suddenly turn into helicopters because your child is sensitive. He's your sensitive kid so you are going to have to be a buffer for him.

If I were there, here is what might happen with our kids. Now my child is not generally aggressive, but she is assertive and she can get possessive, which we work on. But the park is HER domain so I try not to hover.

My child: Can I use your shovel?
Your child: Okay.
My child: Can I have your bucket?
Your child: Okay.
My child: No, you're doing it wrong, do it THIS way.
Your child: Okay. (Not because he's a pushover, he may just be trying to please her, thinking that enough "okays" will satisfy her.)

A minute later...

My child: I WAS PLAYING WITH THAT!!! (She has set down his shovel and your child picked it up.)
Your child: Keeps digging quietly, not sure what to do with the banshee.
My child, screeching: I WAS PLAYING WITH THAT!!! (Throws down something, sand flies, but no hitting, kicking, or throwing at people.)

I am probably still not going over there. I want her and the child to work it out. I know she's upset but my intervention will make her more upset. I am spotting the baby on the slide, or eyeing her from behind my book as the baby eats grass.

You, on the other hand, feel the need to intervene. You feel your child is being unfairly attacked. You intervene. You feel slighted that I'm "not watching" my child.

The reality is that we have different limits and different parenting styles, each of which is adapted to the needs of our own children.

You need to appreciate that we need to do what our kids need as well. And there are going to be parents who let their kids have more free reign and kids who are, quite simply, rude. If you don't want your child to deal with that at his age, the way to avoid it is to leave or to buffer him.

Not to ask someone else to do that for you.

ETA- I read my post and it sounds really harsh. I do not want you to think there is no point where I would go over there. Physical violence is a limit for me. But I do believe that kids between three and five are learning self-control and I'm not going to stop it before it happens unless it's a pattern. My child has never hit or kicked or pushed another child at the playground so I trust her not to cross that line. If I had a hitter or biter, it would be different.

I agree with the above. I am one of those parents who go to the park sit down with the baby and chat with another mom or read a book. Meanwhile my young two and four year olds go off to play. I give them WAY more freedom then most parents I know because I believe it is crucial for healthy development. I do this even at older kids playgrounds. They have become very adapt and confident. Ex. My 2 yr old climbs up 12 foot structures, barrels down slides, plays near 7 year olds, and mostly has fun. Sure she has gotten knocked down, sand thrown at her ect but she is mostly fine. If she comes crying to me, I brush her off, hold her and soon she hops down to go play again. She is a small petite sensitive child too. BUt she is learning how to confidently navigate her world and relate to others.

Believe it or not I DO know where they are and what they are doing even if it seems I am not looking though if they go out of my view for awhile that is fine. My 4 yo ds can be aggressive at times so of he gets really out of line I do call him to have a talk/ regroup. As mentioned my dd is small so I have to "rescue" her the odd time. But unless I want to push them in swings I am almost always chilling in the background.

To be perfectly frank what bothers me is when other parents expect me to step in more. I KNOW my children and their limits and I wish that people would let children be children and just play unless it really is dangerous or mean. It stresses me when another parent keeps expecting me to step in. A few things I am totally OK with and do not intervene for- child puts sand on my child's head, child grabs toy, my 2 yo leans out while up on e 10 foot platform, child rushes past mine knocking them over, running far across a field by themselves, child screams at/ yells at another ect.

If my child is really upset or hurt of course I will go over. If someone is really bullying another (my child doing or receiving) I will go intervene. If my child comes to me whining about another child I will usually not get up but talk with them how they can deal with it the problem on their own. It is not a free-for-all philosophy. I am constantly focusing on teaching my children empathy and respect for others which I believe are crucial. But I do not do it by micro-managing their play.

That was longer then I meant. But I wanted to give you another view to think about







I am NOT a lazy or neglectful mother- in fact I am the opposite. My children- whom have very different personalities- are very warm, outgoing, awesome little people too as I am sure your ds is.

Really I think the key to your problem is seen in your statement "MY ds likes to go to this park and chooses it over others". He is fine


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"They can't work everything out on their own yet and it's the less agressive children, like my son, who get the short end of the stick."

I don't think it's fair to ask the other minders / parents to suddenly turn into helicopters because your child is sensitive. He's your sensitive kid so you are going to have to be a buffer for him.

If I were there, here is what might happen with our kids. Now my child is not generally aggressive, but she is assertive and she can get possessive, which we work on. But the park is HER domain so I try not to hover.


It actually isn't YOUR child's domain at all. It's everyone's park to share, and if you happen to have a child that is making the park an uncomfortable or unpleasant place to play for others, then isn't it your job to teach her otherwise? And it doesn't sound like the OP's child is really sensitive as opposed to polite and easy going. And also, stepping in when your child is beng unfair to others isn't being a helicopter at all, it's just plain parenting.


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## BarnMomma (Dec 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
It actually isn't YOUR child's domain at all. It's everyone's park to share, and if you happen to have a child that is making the park an uncomfortable or unpleasant place to play for others, then isn't it your job to teach her otherwise? And it doesn't sound like the OP's child is really sensitive as opposed to polite and easy going. And also, stepping in when your child is beng unfair to others isn't being a helicopter at all, it's just plain parenting.

Thank you. This was kind of the point of my post although much more succinct.

And yes, maybe sensitive was the wrong word in this instance to describe DS. He is very easy going and polite. But polite is not an accident- I've really worked with him to show him HOW to be polite.

AndI don't think I helicopter. But there is a big difference between letting kids work out their little squabbles and learn to compromise on their own and just standing by while one child screeches/hits/plays unfairly at or with another for no reason.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

*
"I say, go sit on the bench and meet those other mommies, you might discover they are a lot less uptight than you thought ."
*
_"Seeing as they're sitting away from the nannies, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one."_

Don't assume that the segregation is the "mom bench's" idea. The last thing most sane nannies want to do is sit and gossip with women who are socially acquainted with their boss, and might rat them out to their boss. They want to socialize with their peers.

OP, I can't speak to your son, but YOU are not ready to go to the park at rush hour.







If the culture in your park is to let the beasties run free, and you aren't comfortable with that culture for your 5 y.o., then the park is a place for you to go in the off-hours.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 

Second, when another child is speaking in a not nice way TO MY CHILD I'm going to say something. This girl digging the hole was _shrieking_ at my son to "stay away from her, get away, leave me alone" simply when my son turned in her direction making him stand still stunned wondering why this girl is yelling at him. What had he done wrong?

I actually hate the park, too.

That said--I wouldn't feel the need to speak to other children not my own if they were being bratty or rude. If they were physical with my child, absolutely, but what you're talking about above is something all kids need to work through. In the instance above, I would probably say to my child "It sounds like Little Girl is upset and doesn't want to play. Let's go to the swings." And redirect my own child.

Your little boy sounds darling, but all kids have their moments, and one day he might surprise you with his own undesirable behavior--I'm not sure I would want some other mommy calling my child out during one of her moments, and I'm not sure how it helps anyone?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
It actually isn't YOUR child's domain at all. It's everyone's park to share, and if you happen to have a child that is making the park an uncomfortable or unpleasant place to play for others, then isn't it your job to teach her otherwise? And it doesn't sound like the OP's child is really sensitive as opposed to polite and easy going. And also, stepping in when your child is beng unfair to others isn't being a helicopter at all, it's just plain parenting.

She mean "her" domain, as in the children's domain, not the parents.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 
OP here

FYI- my son will be 3 in July

First, I've been going to the park for a while and I'm fairly certain who is a nanny and who is a mommy.

Second, when another child is speaking in a not nice way TO MY CHILD I'm going to say something. This girl digging the hole was _shrieking_ at my son to "stay away from her, get away, leave me alone" simply when my son turned in her direction making him stand still stunned wondering why this girl is yelling at him. What had he done wrong?

Sand throwing is not safe. If your young child is in the sand box I think parents should be within viewing distance to make sure everyone is playing safely.

Regarding toys- when kids bring toys to the park I think the assumption is that they will be shared. BUT- I always insist that DS ask before he picks up some toy and plays with it. And if brings toys, he understands that he needs to share too. What i didn't like was the child who would not share HER toys, but had no problem taking DS's shovel right out of his hand and using it while her stash of toys sat gaurded behind her. That is when a parent/nanny should have stepped in.

I think parents and nannies should be responsible for their children at the park when they're young like this. They can't work everything out on their own yet and it's the less agressive children, like my son, who get the short end of the stick.

Oh and we've gone on more than occasion to two other parks int he area and DS doesn't like them. He's 3 but he can talk, he's perfectly capable of telling me which park he wants to go to.

I actually think all parks should have the parent benches next to the sandbox since that's where most of the arguing seems to occur.









I'm going to kind of agree that a lot of the issues in these specifics have more to do with your heightened sense of fairness and fair play than any actual issue. I don't hear that your child was bit, kicked, pushed off something, or tripped.

To go through these things - I don't agree that there needed to be intervention about the child who was shrieking at your son. You definitely have a role in helping _him_ out by saying "Oh, that girl sounds like she's having a bad moment."

But I don't think it's harmful or crushing for your son to have a kid yelling in his vicinity, even vaguely about him. I get how upsetting it is - my son is sensitive too. But I see my role as helping him to understand, not to get everyone to change. I learned this lesson from his school - there was an autistic child who went there and one day this child was having a very bad day. I was taken aback myself. My son turned to me cool as a cucumber and said "Oh he's just having a bad day. When he knows what will help he will tell us." That's an amazing amount of empowerment in that statement.

Sand throwing is something I'm not a fan of, but I would just remove my child or have him turn around and face the other way. It's really not my job to police the sandbox. I might say something if it lasted a long time or were especially persistent, but in my experience the throwing gets boring fast.

The sharing issue is pretty much entirely your issue. People do not share things fairly in life nor does everyone have the same concept of sharing, and trying to make everyone around your son share properly is only going to stress both you and your kid out. If you don't want to share your stuff, don't bring it.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm pretty shocked at the Lord of the Flies attitude about _two_ year olds. Seriously? Two year olds should be just left alone among groups of older kids? Uhhh... no. I am not a helicopter parent because I am standing 5' away from my (just turned two a week ago) kid making sure that she's doing fine. I am not "hovering" and I don't intervene unless there is a problem. But I'm right there watching.

Given that I had a bigger kid throw me off the playground equipment when I was 6 and broke my arm I will be supervising my kid for a good many years to come, thanks. And this 'kids will be kids' crap is how bullies happen. Until my kid is old enough to defend herself I will not be leaving her alone.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

my kid's not old enough for me to worry about these interactions just yet but i have done lots of working in daycare ctrs and babysitting to have noticed playground dynamics.

i totally agree with you. i do not think it is appropriate to let one's child bully another child. children at a young age are learning how to socially interact and how will they know what is appropriate and what isn't? without supervision, or discussion, or parental involvement, what plays out is might makes right, or the bigger kid or the most aggressive one or the one who hasn't learned how to play nice gets to grab all the toys.
i don't want my child to learn those lessons. i also don't feel that it is the move of a responsible parent to allow a sandbox toy grabbing free for all.

things are a little different in rural areas, in my opinion. however, i'd advise you to try to find some like minded parents and have park play dates.. find some parents who want to supervise play and see if the kids in your group can learn good skills from each other. good luck!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I'm pretty shocked at the Lord of the Flies attitude about _two_ year olds. Seriously? Two year olds should be just left alone among groups of older kids? Uhhh... no. I am not a helicopter parent because I am standing 5' away from my (just turned two a week ago) kid making sure that she's doing fine. I am not "hovering" and I don't intervene unless there is a problem. But I'm right there watching.

Given that I had a bigger kid throw me off the playground equipment when I was 6 and broke my arm I will be supervising my kid for a good many years to come, thanks. And this 'kids will be kids' crap is how bullies happen. Until my kid is old enough to defend herself I will not be leaving her alone.

I might agree with you if any of the examples involved a single touch. But whether kids share toys, shriek, or even keep sand on the ground is not the same as breaking arms.

If the OP wants to be near her son, no problem. But deciding what the standards of intervention should be for the whole park is not okay IMO.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I agree with rightkindofme and hildare, and betsyNY. Children need guidance and feedback. Throwing sand is not okay. It's an unfortunate culture at that park, it sounds like. I tend to go to the park with AP playgroups and that helps set the tone, I find. The big kids are running wild, riding bikes, climbing and jumping out of trees, etc., but they know when they come into the little kids' area to slow down... and they are VERY sweet to them! And moms are not hovering but step in if a kid is potentially hurting another kid. Just saying stuff like, do you need to move away from the other kids (ie if the kid wants to swing a stick around or something)? Or asking how grabbing a toy might make the other kid feel, asking them to return it. Basic stuff like not throwing sand, not grabbing toys out of another's hand, not physically hitting. I think kids this young sometimes need guidance on these basic, basic things.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I think it's telling that the "you need to back off and let kids be kids" parents are usually the parents of the yeller/hitter/thrower/grabber.

FWIW, I think there's plenty of space between hovering and trying to make every interaction textbook-perfect, and not getting involved unless you see blood. I try to kind of stay somewhere in there.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I think it's telling that the "you need to back off and let kids be kids" parents are usually the parents of the yeller/hitter/thrower/grabber.

FWIW, I think there's plenty of space between hovering and trying to make every interaction textbook-perfect, and not getting involved unless you see blood. I try to kind of stay somewhere in there.

This. I don't hover, but I don't expect my two year old to know how to handle everything on her own yet.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I'm pretty shocked at the Lord of the Flies attitude about _two_ year olds. Seriously? Two year olds should be just left alone among groups of older kids? Uhhh... no. I am not a helicopter parent because I am standing 5' away from my (just turned two a week ago) kid making sure that she's doing fine. I am not "hovering" and I don't intervene unless there is a problem. But I'm right there watching.

lol, referring to my post? I am only posting because this is how people ASSUME I think. No, I do not have a Lord of the Flies mentality. I think I was clear about that in my post. I am VERY aware of what my 2 yr old is doing and what is happening to her. But I can do that from 50 feet away and by not watching every second. I only intervene when necessary but then I DO. My dd is much more capable then ppl give her credit for. She only does what she is comfortable with. If she stays next to me, fine. If she plays on the 5-12 yr old playground with them, fine. She is very aware of her limits because I have given her trust and space to explore them. The worst part for me, is the looks ppl give because she is climbing a 8 foot climbing wall by herself.

BTW, Aside from numerous scraps and minor cuts and a few stitches my children have not been injured by this physically only empowered.
I wish you could meet us. You would see a very well-adjusted, happy, confident 2 yr old. And a wonderful, warm ,caring mama.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Or maybe they just recognize that a larger group requires more supervision for a possibly overwhelmed kiddo? And that a larger group makes it necessary to stay closer to maintain line of sight?

Uhhh, no. I'm talking about parents directing their kids' play, standing in line for them in the slide and calling them back over when it was their turn when they'd wandered off (keep in mind, we're talking about younger children here), micromanaging what their kids were doing--it was freaky.

I am a live and let live type of person. I really don't give a damn what other people do (hover or not--again, though only so long as they're not making disparaging remarks about me or trying to bully my kid).

As I stated in my post, this was kind of a weird situation. I'm not stupid, I've dealt with large groups before.


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## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

There's a middle ground, though, isn't there? Can't parents be present without being accused of hovering? There's a difference between paying attention from a distance and completely tuning out and turning off.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

it is the assumption that because the parents are not right there that they are not paying attention. i can be across the playground and be very aware of what is going on with out being right in the middle of it.
as a few other posters have mentioned that is how they do it as well. and some parents view some behavior as more tolerable then others... that does not mean they do not parent, it means they have a different view then some others.
maybe at the park the OP goes to the nannies and the moms are truly oblivious, and not really "parenting", but i am going to guess that maybe they are, they just do it differently. not better or worse, just different.
i know that it is a relief to go to the beach/park and let my kids have their space, and i get a bit of breathing room. yes, i know, i am a parent, but it seems to do us all good and we come home much better. in fact i miss our more routine park days we use to have back in AZ because we (the other moms and me) were a team, we all knew what was going on, but we all chilled and let the kids do their thing.
that might be an idea for the OP maybe introduce yourself, see what is up. i know that other people came to the park and thought we didn't know what was going on and were so nice as to shout rudeness our way as their kids pushed people over right in their view. lol but hey, some of those mamas came over and hung out with us and you know what... the kids did great.









h


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I hate playgrounds.

I also often find myself the only person taking care of kids. I have one small toddler who could easily walk in front of a swing and get bashed in the head, or fall off the slide, or any number of things. And one five year old who tends to be very overbearing with younger or smaller kids, so I do have to keep close tabs on her.

And I thought it was a shame last time we went that another mom with a small toddler was letting hers wander freely, and I had to stop my daughter's swing to keep this other child from getting bashed. And then when the mom finally came over to take care of her child, and we started the swings again, and this baby went to walk in front of them again, the mom stood and watched while my daughter's swing hit her child in the face, and then laughed and said "See, I told you so!" So yeah, there are worse things than not watching your babies at all.







At least if the mom would have stayed on her bench gabbing, I would have known that I had to stop the swings every time the baby came near. Poor little girl.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I will admit I didn't read the whole post thread, but I started it and skimmed the rest and have two general thoughts on what few things have made the difference between a good and bad day at a playground for myself and my children over the years.

The first is age. When I brought my kids to the playground when they were bigger than babies, but not really kids yet, it was usually not that much fun. Much of the playground equipment where I live says right on the side (designed for ages 5-9) if my three year old is there and I am afraid they are not holding their own with 5 year olds, it was my mistake for bringing them to the wrong playground.

I don't like when kids bring their own things to a playground. It is a source of problems. We bought my boys their own sandbox and they play with their sand toys in their sandbox or at the beach. When they go to a playground with a sandbox - we stay on the equipment. Kids are always fighting over the toys in the sandbox. Either they don't want to share or (GASP!) my kids don't want to share.

Honestly, now that I have more kids and older kids, I can't believe how much angst I put us all through by insisting on going to playgrounds when my kids weren't in the correct developmental or emotional phase for it and we weren't really having a good time. If it isn't fun now - take 6 months off and it probably will be.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with the 'middle ground' posters. I usually sit on a bench or chat to friends but keep glancing at my 3 year old. When he was younger I followed him around for safety reasons and I much prefer letting him do his thing. Around here, the culture is very much about helping the kids share and play nicely. DS has only been on the receiving end of aggression a couple of times. He was quite shocked though when it happened. If another child screamed at him he would probably cry and I would be annoyed if the parent didn't even appear to notice.

The other day, we were at a play area and there were two brothers being dinosaurs. They were not aggressive but they kept trying to engage my son in play by roaring in his face and clawing at him. DS didn't like it at all. I did my best to help him see that they were just playing but the parent also stepped in to say that my son didn't like that. I would have been irritated if he had just sat by while my son was upset.

It's hard to know what to do if a child is taking a toy out of your child's hand but I think parents' do need to help with this one. If you just let your child work it out for himself maybe he will simply start snatching too. I would also say something if sand was being thrown at or near my son. I simply don't think that's OK. On the other hand, if a child pushes past mine in line or does something that I wouldn't let my child do (run up the slide when others want to come down, for instance) then I wouldn't say anything.

I'm lucky in that, so far, my son isn't confrontational with other kids. He tends to hang back and observe and won't engage if the play is too rough for him. If I knew he was a pusher/ yeller/ hitter I would be much more of a helicopter. It's only fair to the other children.

OP - I suggest not bringing toys and just moving your child if the other kids are throwing sand, etc.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
lol, referring to my post? I am only posting because this is how people ASSUME I think. No, I do not have a Lord of the Flies mentality. I think I was clear about that in my post. I am VERY aware of what my 2 yr old is doing and what is happening to her. But I can do that from 50 feet away and by not watching every second. I only intervene when necessary but then I DO. My dd is much more capable then ppl give her credit for. She only does what she is comfortable with. If she stays next to me, fine. If she plays on the 5-12 yr old playground with them, fine. She is very aware of her limits because I have given her trust and space to explore them. The worst part for me, is the looks ppl give because she is climbing a 8 foot climbing wall by herself.

BTW, Aside from numerous scraps and minor cuts and a few stitches my children have not been injured by this physically only empowered.
I wish you could meet us. You would see a very well-adjusted, happy, confident 2 yr old. And a wonderful, warm ,caring mama.









My daughter is *covered* with scrapes, cuts, and bruises. I don't worry about her climbing up huge play structures. She's somewhat timid and she is just not going to get in over her head. If she feels she can do it, then I'm fine with that. I'm still standing 5' away smiling. I'm not interfering. I'm not telling her what to do. I'm making sure that if something does happen that my reaction time is reasonable. If she wants to climb up the climbing wall, go for it.

My kid has been playing alone in the backyard since she was 15 months old. I'm really not concerned about her being able to physically manage herself on playground equipment. I, however, do not expect her to have figured out social interactions yet. That is more where I intervene.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys* 
The first is age. When I brought my kids to the playground when they were bigger than babies, but not really kids yet, it was usually not that much fun. Much of the playground equipment where I live says right on the side (designed for ages 5-9) if my three year old is there and I am afraid they are not holding their own with 5 year olds, it was my mistake for bringing them to the wrong playground.

Ours always have structures geared 2-5, and it's rare to see a kid older than 5 or 6 at a playground. They're mostly in school, doing sports, or off riding bikes or playing in the woods in gangs. They have no need of playgrounds.


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## GreenTeaGinger61 (Oct 10, 2009)

Okay so I have a very very timid son who is ten. We've been going to city and suburbian parks since he was two. He was the kid who had sand thrown at him, yelled at, toys taken away from, etc. Initially I was like OP and I intervened. It really bothered me that he just TOOK this kind of behavior from other kids. It kept happening year after year, and despite my many talks with him about standing up for himself, nothing changed. Until my two year old started to play at the park, and I couldn't intervene for my ds anymore. At that point, (he was five), he began to stand up for himself. To the point where he finally defended himself against one of his bully friends (who did hurt him and I had had to step many many times). Once my ds stood up to this kid, on his own, the kid never bothered him again. It was a revelation to me. I began to give my two year old d a lot more space. And you know what same thing with her. She learned to stand up for herself. Happened again with my third, and I fully intend to do the same with my newest one once she's old enough.

I'm not saying let your kid get beat on but I do think it important that children learn to stand up for themselves. They're not going to learn to do it if you are always the one who does it for them.

And just an added note, the helicopter parents are as equally annoying as the parents who do nothing (there is a balance). There was a parent at the spray/play ground yesterday who was running around, GRABBING other parents to tell them that their children were doing things to her child..things like "Your child is telling my child what to do!" She was NUTS. She was frantic trying to control EVERYONE at the park. I once had a mom almost push my two year off a play structure because she thought my kid was pushing her one year old (whom she wasn't watching at the time). I mean seriously...you're going to push a two year old?


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

OP you should come by my neighborhood park sometime. All the moms at the park here are very involved, chasing their kids around and even bumping into each other on the play equipment. They are all total helicopter parents. I actually don't socialize with other moms and kids anymore because my 18 month old is an assertive, aggressive, social pariah (at least that's how the moms at the park make me feel). She has the audacity to try to play with other kid's toys, and if I don't intervene within seconds I get dagger eyes from the "victim's" mom. Of course after I've taken 15 different toys away from my little bully, she invariably has a meltdown and we leave. It's really no fun. Sometimes I wish that these kids would stick up for themselves, but how can they if mommy always intervenes?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I think it's telling that the "you need to back off and let kids be kids" parents are usually the parents of the yeller/hitter/thrower/grabber.

FWIW, I think there's plenty of space between hovering and trying to make every interaction textbook-perfect, and not getting involved unless you see blood. I try to kind of stay somewhere in there.

Well, if you're including me in that group - no actually. And I often am with my child.

But there is a BIG difference between that, and deciding that MY standards for how kids should share & play are what should be enforced by everyone else.

Take throwing sand. If someone's walking up to a child and whipping sand into his or her eyes deliberately, okay, that's a pretty clear violation. But some parents might not have a rule about whether sand can be thrown into the wind. It might be my self-assigned job to redirect my child away from sand throwing, but I really don't feel it's my call to be upset with other parents for their standards.

It's the same thing with sharing. Our rule is if you bring a toy to the park you share it. But I am not prepared to assume that all the other parents have to make the same rule.

I think the OP will enjoy her time with her child more if she can ease up on the judging. I also think helping her child develop his own strategies will help him more than trying to ensure fairness around him.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
Ours always have structures geared 2-5, and it's rare to see a kid older than 5 or 6 at a playground. They're mostly in school, doing sports, or off riding bikes or playing in the woods in gangs. They have no need of playgrounds.

We do have parks that are structured for younger kids - I think 3-5 but most of them are for the older 5-9ish age. I have a 10 year old and a 6 year old and on weekends, after school, during the summer they still do very much like a playground - of course they are never playing in the woods in "gangs"







(sorry, I know what you mean, it just sounded so funny to think about kids in the 5-9 range as being in gangs that roam the woods)

To be honest my oldest son (10 years) would be much more gentle and careful with toddlers than my 3 year old. Likewise he would be more tolerant of preschool age kids than my 6 year old would because he is old enough to be mature and realize they are not his peers but babies/little kids. It is when a child is only slightly older that it is difficult for them to rise up to the role of the "big kid"


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Well I guess IMO then if being a helicoptor parent means that we intervene when our children are treating others unfairly, and making sure that they are safe then that's what I want to be. as for letting children work things out for themselves, take child A for example then, who is the one being bossy, not sharing, throwing sand, etc. then take child B who doesnt stick up for himself. let them work it out then, and whos going to be the clear winner? Child A. then, if Child A is getting what they want because they think that their behaviour is perfectly fine, because mommy's sitting on the bench over there and if I was doing something wrong then wouldn't she come and stop me, then that's how she'll continue to act, no? the lesson there to me is, yes its okay to take advantage of those less assertive than you, and you only have to share or compromise when the other person has a stronger personality. i think that those moms sitting on the bench call it helicoptering to make themselves feel better about their lack of attention to their child's behaviours.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Alright, I'm feeling very irritated by this so I'm going to point out my irritation, because I'm like that.

Why is this conversation turning into black and white? Why does it seem like people need to be either 50' away 'letting their kids handle it' or helicoptering? This polarization isn't helping in the slightest. I stand 5' away from my two year old because she doesn't have a lot of social skills yet. We *always* bring sand toys to the park and she occasionally needs a word or two of reminding but she's great at sharing. I don't see why me standing nearish to say, "Hey it's not polite to grab. It would be better if you said, 'May I use this?'" to *my* kid is offensive to anyone. Just because someone is trying to teach their kid manners doesn't mean they are off constantly lecturing other peoples kids. That said, if another child is constantly grabbing things away from my kid and she freaks out I will tell the kid, "Hey--if you can't be polite you don't need to use our toys." That is not policing every kid at the playground. For the record I have never had to use a sharp tone of voice with another kid. If I tell a three year old to be polite they have universally said something to the effect of, "oh! Please...." It's never been anything like a problem.

I don't see why people are vilifying anyone else. I think that if your kids are old enough to pretty much have their manners in check then you don't need to be near them. I don't see a problem with parents of 4-5+ year old kids sitting 50' away. By that age my kid really better have figured stuff out or I've got bigger problems. But at two I don't think it's a good thing to tell kids to 'just figure it out'. She's just not there yet. And if your kid is a particularly mature three, sure. Whatever. You know your kid.

I don't understand why things have to be an either/or. I don't think that all kids have to be hovered over forever. I don't think that two year olds need to be ditched and told to figure it out. Where is the middle ground here?


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Please try not to be judgmental of those you perceive as "helicoptering."

My dd is 4. If we are at park alone, or with just a few kids, I sit on a bench and let her do her thing. If the park is crowded, particularly after school, I tend to hover--because she has severe food allergies, including a contact allergy to wheat. There is simply too much snacking going on at the playground and other kids don't know that they can't touch my dd's hand while they're eating their crackers or not to offer her food. My job is to keep her safe. You have no idea what sort of issues the child of the "hovering" parent might have.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 
OP here
What i didn't like was the child who would not share HER toys, but had no problem taking DS's shovel right out of his hand and using it while her stash of toys sat gaurded behind her. That is when a parent/nanny should have stepped in.


That's when you say "I'm sorry, but that is ours. Where is your grown-up?". I've also asked for things back when we're leaving places.

At most of the playgrounds around, the children 4 and under are usually being watched by someone.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I think it's telling that the "you need to back off and let kids be kids" parents are usually the parents of the yeller/hitter/thrower/grabber.

Do you actually have any proof of this? It's certainly not been my experience. As I said earlier, my children have never hit or pushed another child at a playground. Neither of my children has ever bitten anyone. I've seen more problems arise from parents intervening - say, insisting that everyone give her child enough "space" to brave the slide - than from children. I have more faith in children than most people here do. I believe that children, even preschoolers, can handle many problems on their own if they're given the opportunity.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyNY* 
There's a middle ground, though, isn't there? Can't parents be present without being accused of hovering? There's a difference between paying attention from a distance and completely tuning out and turning off.

But I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that they completely tune out and turn off. At MOST, we say that we keep a distance and watch for the children to get in real fights (hitting, rude language, etc.) before we step in. The OP seems to feel that the time to step in is way before that, such as, petty disagreements, or rudeness like failing to share evenly. All of us agree that the children need supervision and that there are limits.

Quote:

"If my child is really upset or hurt of course I will go over. If someone is really bullying another (my child doing or receiving) I will go intervene. If my child comes to me whining about another child I will usually not get up but talk with them how they can deal with it the problem on their own. It is not a free-for-all philosophy. I am constantly focusing on teaching my children empathy and respect for others which I believe are crucial. But I do not do it by micro-managing their play."
Totally agree.

Quote:

"It actually isn't YOUR child's domain at all. It's everyone's park to share, and if you happen to have a child that is making the park an uncomfortable or unpleasant place to play for others, then isn't it your job to teach her otherwise? And it doesn't sound like the OP's child is really sensitive as opposed to polite and easy going. And also, stepping in when your child is beng unfair to others isn't being a helicopter at all, it's just plain parenting."
Thanks to those who pointed out that I meant it's the kids' domain, not the grown-ups.

I spend 10 of my child's 12 waking hours with her by my side, or at least mainly with me as the person she's interacting with, modeling and enforcing polite manners. As she is three, she does not play perfectly or politely 100% of the time. But the park is an area where she gets to negotiate reality without her mom holding her hand the whole time.

It would drive me batpoop crazy to have someone hovering over me enforcing her personal standards of politeness every waking hour, and I think it would drive her insane, too. Our worst days are the days we are in the adult world the whole time and she has to follow every dot and tittle of every rule and never gets to practice self-control or independence. Our best days are those in which she gets to control herself for awhile.

If she loses friends on the playground (and she has, by the way, by throwing a tantrum, pouting, whatever) she learns the natural consequence.

" stepping in when your child is beng unfair to others isn't being a helicopter at all"

I disagree. I think small disagreements- such as who has the right to a toy that's been set down, whether sharing must be mutual- can be learning opportunities.

I think that honestly, what I'm reading here seems to be a lot of parents of younger toddlers and pre-schoolers speaking to parents of pre-schoolers and up. They are still socializing their itty-bitty ones and do not believe that a child-based social environment, in which kids are allowed to make mistakes, is part of that.

Perhaps this is really parents of wee ones to parents of big ones saying, hey, look, my little one is not ready for your big one's caprices. Please manage your child!

But to that I would say: a child that is not ready to play with other kids is not ready for the park. It's not all roses at the park or anywhere else.

FYI at our parks, and we have like four nearby, we don't have sand-boxes, but I have never once seen a parent standing over two kids playing telling them how to be polite. The average age is probably three at said parks, starting around 18 months and going up to kindergarten. This issue of toddlers and pre-schoolers HAVING to be polite during every interaction just... I don't know. It seems unfair to them as kids. Like they can never eat a chocolate ice-cream and have it drip down their sundress, or never get a skinned knee. They are not emotional teacups. They'll live and grow stronger. They have to learn to work it out, bit by bit.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
take child A for example then, who is the one being bossy, not sharing, throwing sand, etc. then take child B who doesnt stick up for himself. let them work it out then, and whos going to be the clear winner? Child A. then, if Child A is getting what they want because they think that their behaviour is perfectly fine, because mommy's sitting on the bench over there and if I was doing something wrong then wouldn't she come and stop me, then that's how she'll continue to act, no? the lesson there to me is, yes its okay to take advantage of those less assertive than you, and you only have to share or compromise when the other person has a stronger personality. i think that those moms sitting on the bench call it helicoptering to make themselves feel better about their lack of attention to their child's behaviours.

Child A won't always win. Sure, some children will remain passive, but most won't. Most of the time, if left alone, children will learn to create their own boundaries. The problem, from my perspective, is that parents who stand over their children constantly and intervene aren't allowing their children to learn in unimportant situations - an hour at the park. When do those children learn? I'd rather my children develop appropriate boundaries while I *am* right there if there's any major problem rather than waiting until school where I'm not present.

I see many children of friends who cannot navigate the most basic conflicts at age 5 or 6 because they've never had to. That puts those children at a disadvantage. We have one child of a friend for whom I'm worried once he starts school. I have no doubt he will be the target of bullies. He knows nothing other than to tell adults when something goes wrong, even if it's not really a slight - "I want to play Legos, but X doesn't want to play with me." His parents would cajole or guilt X into playing. I've seen it. That does their child absolutely no good.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Wow. Lots of opinions.

I hover. DH doesn't. Drives me nuts since I don't think it's good to NOT spot a 2yo on a very tall jungle gym with open sides. Said 2yo has some motor problems where her left leg gives out at odd times, so double the fun. Given that she hasn't learned to avoid walking in front of the swings as well...triple the fun. So I keep an eye on her. DH lets her run free, but I'm not there to see it.

Anyway, as for the Op, I would just give up on the sand box and set a rule that unless no one is in it, DS is to stay out. And no more toys. Let him share other kids' toys.

I have no problem speaking up for DD just b/c of her age and her height --she's tall and is often perceived to be older than she is which can cause problems.

Just yesterday an older kid sidled up to the train table where DD was playing, thinking he could just go in and take the trains away. You should have seen him jump when I reminded everyone, "Let's be sure to share."







I was maybe 10 feet away, I guess his 'authority radar' didn't extend that far.

And really, I was protecting him more so than DD. She's 2, she can't moderate anger and is likely to hit.

That being said, I do know that DD is different with me around than without me. I would be curious to see what your DS would do if you stepped out of the arena. He might surprise you.

V


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 

But to that I would say: a child that is not ready to play with other kids is not ready for the park. It's not all roses at the park or anywhere else.

I really disagree with this. Parks are designed for multi age use by simple virtue of the infant swing, the special needs swing and regular swings-- if parents aren't willing to moderate or accept intervention from other parents so that their children don't run over the itty bitty babies, then maybe they shouldn't take _their_ kids to the park.

Or maybe cities should make special infant only parks filled with infant swings. Except where will families go who have multiple kids of various ages? I guess they have to stay home????

The very fact it's not all roses is why parents need to be attuned to what's going on and ensure their kids aren't terrorizing anyone. Parks should not be synonymous with Lord of the Flies. It's not Survivor, it's a public park where regular manners and social niceties still apply.

Children need some level of supervision to ensure that public spaces are enjoyed by everyone. In real life, we can't control the environment or the needs of the people around our children, so why must the park fit a specific demographic?

I don't see the logic in your statement. It makes no sense to me.

V


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## crowcaw (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think that honestly, what I'm reading here seems to be a lot of parents of younger toddlers and pre-schoolers speaking to parents of pre-schoolers and up. They are still socializing their itty-bitty ones and do not believe that a child-based social environment, in which kids are allowed to make mistakes, is part of that.

Perhaps this is really parents of wee ones to parents of big ones saying, hey, look, my little one is not ready for your big one's caprices. Please manage your child!

But to that I would say: a child that is not ready to play with other kids is not ready for the park. It's not all roses at the park or anywhere else.


I see this at playgrounds. We've been going to the same 4 or 5 playgrounds since my dds were 1.5. As they and the children in their age group we see there have grown from young toddlers to preschoolers and older, I've heard the parents complaints evolve from the no-one's-watching-the-older-kids to the-playground-isn't-a-nursery. When mine were really little, I did hang around them most the time; heading off sharing problems by offering a toy when someone came over, making sure they aren't in a bigger kids way in a rambunctious game, etc. Now they're older, I'm from quite a distance. I'm pretty laissez-faire about interactions in their own age group. If they were bullying or hurting someone I would step in (hasn't happened) or if they're in a group that is getting way out of hand (has happened a couple times and I bring them out of the group). I do monitor their interactions with younger kids closely -- as they're barreling around I'll call out to make them aware that a little one is on the 5-9 structure for instance.

It's been really interesting to me how people's playground perceptions have changed as their children have gotten older.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't know why but I have this feeling of telling those Nanny to PAY ATTENTION to the kids they're suppose to supervise. They are being paid to supervise! One of these days, one of those kids are going to be seriously injured and the nanny is going to wish that she had paid attention!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VroomieMama* 
I don't know why but I have this feeling of telling those Nanny to PAY ATTENTION to the kids they're suppose to supervise. They are being paid to supervise! One of these days, one of those kids are going to be seriously injured and the nanny is going to wish that she had paid attention!


Eh, I don't know that you can blame the nannys, honestly. I used to be a summer time nanny, and EVERY TIME I left the two kids one of them would get hurt. I would leave two perfectly sound children and come in the next day and the little girl would stitches or the little boy would have a huge goose egg. I am pretty sure I was more attentive than their parents.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Hmm... well, if I'm playing with my kids, then I either get kids who think I will make my kids share when others don't, or I get the glommers who clearly want more adult attention and try to strike up a long convo with me or want me to watch them on some other piece of equipment. I don't do either one, honestly. I just say no I can't do that or don't carry on the convo. I'm not mean about it, but I try to be direct. As they've gotten older they don't tend to ask me to play with them though, but sometimes they do.

I also go early/late/with friends, and have taught the kids to give me their toys when they're done playing with them. If it's in my kid's hand, I've never had a problem with someone snatching it, but if the sandbox is big enough, I would probably move when the bullies came into our area.

Last, I don't teach my kids that they *have* to share things we bring, but with the vast majority of kids they do. I don't believe in the forced sharing thing when the playground has tons of communal toys and we bring 1-2 items per kid max.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 

Here's why:
90% of the kids at the playground are there with nannys. The nannys all gather on two benches and gab and read and laugh and do anything and everything other than watch the kids they are there with. The remaining 10% are moms who are doing the same thing on another group of benches. Most of the kids there are between the ages of 18 months and 5 years. So in other words a yound enough crowd that supervision is required.

And then there's me- the weirdo mom who plays with her child or keeps a close watchful eye from a distance to let him explore and/or play with the other children. I don't hover but I keep close- those sand fights can break out in a matter of seconds...

But it's stressful. I end up being the ONLY adult offering any kind of supervision.

^ This is why I was saying what I just said.


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## laila2 (Jul 21, 2007)

Also said:


> We took some bikes or scooters to the park once and I did not let others play on it due to safety. If we ever brought toys and they were being grabbed by older kids, I would be firm with the kids that that is not allowed. I have seen friends yell loudly at kids playing unsafe when their parents were not handling it and I agree with that.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VroomieMama* 
I don't know why but I have this feeling of telling those Nanny to PAY ATTENTION to the kids they're suppose to supervise. They are being paid to supervise! One of these days, one of those kids are going to be seriously injured and the nanny is going to wish that she had paid attention!

Unfortunately, I've seen this happen twice. Once a friend stepped in and tried to stop the child's BLEEDING, called around for the nanny, and 10 minutes later, the nanny ran up and was very pissed off that anyone touched her charge.







The other time the child fell off a tall structure and the nanny also had to be called to by a parent, then she yelled at the screaming kid and took him home. I hope seriously that neither child was seriously injured, because I guarantee those nannies did not tell the parents about potential for concussion or to keep an eye.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Eh, I don't know that you can blame the nannys, honestly. I used to be a summer time nanny, and EVERY TIME I left the two kids one of them would get hurt. I would leave two perfectly sound children and come in the next day and the little girl would stitches or the little boy would have a huge goose egg. I am pretty sure I was more attentive than their parents.

You were not one of the nannies at that playground. I was more annoyed at those nannies that the OP talked about.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Unfortunately, I've seen this happen twice. Once a friend stepped in and tried to stop the child's BLEEDING, called around for the nanny, and 10 minutes later, the nanny ran up and was very pissed off that anyone touched her charge.







The other time the child fell off a tall structure and the nanny also had to be called to by a parent, then she yelled at the screaming kid and took him home. I hope seriously that neither child was seriously injured, because I guarantee those nannies did not tell the parents about potential for concussion or to keep an eye.

THAT IS WHAT I WAS AFRAID OF!!!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

My son is four and a half, and sometimes I feel like i need to "hover" a bit with him. He has a speech delay and kids have a hard time understanding him - so even when he does exactly what I tell him to when someone is bothering him, the other kids often don't understand what he's saying to them. He also is sometimes timid when doing things like walking across a bridge on a play structure or climbing a ladder to a slide. Other kids tend to get frustrated with his lack of speed and shove past him, which really freaks him out. I have been known to step in and ask for kids to wait their turn, or even create a physical barrier between them and my kid if it's a safety issue (like climbing a slide ladder - if someone shoves past him, there's a good chance he's going to fall off the structure - if they aren't listening. I don't have a problem being my son's voice when he needs me to be, and I don't have a problem telling kids that I don't like what they are doing and to ask them to leave my son alone when he can't do it himself, or tell them that my son isn't going to play if they continue certain behavior. I figure the lesson the other kid learns is "if you act that way, you might annoy some one - whether that person is a kid or an adult." I have two kids older than him that I was much more hands off with, especially by ds2's age, but they were able to communicate a lot better, which made it easier to stand up for themselves. Even with the older kids, though, I didn't have a problem stepping in as necessary. I figured if people cared that I was redirecting their kids, they probably would be close enough to know what was going on.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Hmm

Well the playgrounds we usually go to also have the groups of parents/nannies (around here the 'nanny' is more often a grandparent or aunt) sitting around gabbing, although they do eventually intervene sometimes.

Today I was taking DS down the slide and almost kicked a kid walking UP the slide... I have no problem with walking up the slide if you're the only one in the playground but it's pretty dangerous when there are lots of people playing! He was 4... he told me so when I said that it's dangerous to come up the slide because people might be coming down... parent nowhere to be seen.

We share our sand toys and usually other kids share theirs but not always... I once pulled DS out of the sandbox and said very loudly & rudely (so their parents could hear) "Let's go play somewhere else, they don't want to play with you" or something... I felt bad but I was mad that they were hoarding all the COMMUNITY toys (not their own toys). Usually I say nothing though, just encourage DS to find other things to do, he's still easily distractable & I'd rather he do something else than fight. I don't worry about him standing up for himself yet but I guess I'll have to adjust my reactions in time...

I'm really torn because I love playing with DS on the playground, it's the one of the only things I really enjoy doing with him. But I do feel like a crazy weirdo following him around. At the same time, he's only 16mos and always wants to walk off the ledges so I'm paranoid to give him too much distance unless he's safely on the ground. I don't know if that's my huge fear of heights or if other parents follow their under-2's because I don't really see many kids under 2 at the playground for some reason (except in a stroller near the gabbing mom...)


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I agree, it's got to be a middle ground. I don't care if some moms watch their kids from far away, as long as when they DO see their kid throwing sand at someone or pushing, etc, they step in. I got the impression from the OP that sand fights were breaking out and no parents or nannies were stepping in at all. A lot of people are saying they sit down and still see their kids-- Great! But the OP was saying at her park the adults DON'T do that. I think we can agree that giving kids some free range is important, and sometimes kids need more supervision, too. It's a balance.

I let DD roam around enclosed or otherwise safe parks we visit. But I also stick close at crazy-busy parks like at the beach. Too easy for her to disapear, honestly. And I've had kids take her sand toys and refuse to return them. As in, we shared and are trying to leave and asking the kid nicely for 15 minutes and the kid phsyically won't return them... and no parent ever walked up. No one was watching that 2-3yo the whole time, a good hour. At a park right near the beach and a busy street and parking lot. That made me more scared for the kid than annoyed about the sand toys. I know some say no toys at the park, but we just bring a bunch of toys, are okay with them getting lost, and encourage sharing. No taking toys out of other's hands. But when a kid is right there with your bucket and shovel and rake, it's hard to tell DD we're just leaving it b/c she won't give it back.

I've also been in the situation where a kid walked up and threw sand right in my DD's face. And laughed, as she cried. And his nanny didn't even get up from the bench. I had to deal with trying to get sand out of DD's mouth and nose and eyes, so I didn't bother trying to talk to him about that behavior, but I made sure I was close to DD for the rest of the visit and jumped between him and her when he tried to do it again. I did wish his nanny had done something to give him feedback about his behavior, or distracted him, or made him play elsewhere if he was going to keep trying to do it... but nothing. And this kid was likely 5yo. I can see where if I was going to this park every day and multiple kids were behaving like that, with no reaction from parents/nannies, it would get VERY tiring and sort of wearying... you want your kids to be able to play without someone attacking them


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 
5 minutes after we're there 3 other children show up. One girl brings her own batch of sand toys, and two others just dive right in and take DS's toys.

Sharing is with other people who are behaving appropriately. What you're describing is frankly, bullying. I'm afraid by saying you'll share, you're enabling them to victimize your DS. I would keep all the toys that your son is not actively using in a mesh bag over your shoulder. Tell the kids no the minute they try to take them. I think this would solve it, because they know you're not going to force "sharing" of your DS' property, and it should cut off the bullying before it starts. I would also teach him that it's nice to share with his friends, but that he does not have to share with strangers nor do what they want him to do. To me, it's the beginning of "stranger danger" concepts--even if they're kids, if they give you a bad vibe, you don't have to do anything with them, do what they say, or give them your stuff.

When there's a reasonable kid who wants to share and your DS wants to share, you can get toys out of the bag for him/her. I do this with my kids, and even though they don't play with me as often as they get older, they bring me toys when they're done with them and their shoes/sweaters if they take them off. It makes it easier to be ready to leave, honestly, stuff isn't strewn all over, but it also helps with toy takers.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Boy, this thread makes me glad that there are no sand boxes at any park I've ever seen around here!


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## not_telling (Mar 31, 2008)

Wow! Quite a thread so far...
A few random thoughts after reading through these 4 pages:

My son is 22 months and we've just started using the playground near us. The equipment there is probably geared towards kids who are at least 3, but DS is doing alright. I let him take the lead most of the time, and I do follow. It's never been crowded when we've gone, but usually there also aren't kids who are his age. If he wants to run around an empty tennis court - fine. If he wants to run around a tennis court where older kids are trying to play tennis - not fine. The other day some older kids (3-ish?) were riding scooters and DS really wanted to try. The kids saw he was interested, but clearly were not up for sharing - and it was clear to me that he was too small to use them anyway. I stepped in multiple times to redirect/distract DS away from the scooters. At this age it really does feel like a safety issue. Sometimes there is broken glass at the playground...I wouldn't be surprised if other undesirable "materials" show up from time to time. I'm gonna keep my kid physically safe. Does not make me a helicopter parent. I play with him when he wants me to and hang back when he seems ok on his own. Again, not a helicopter parent.

Sand throwing. Eesh! To me, this is just a safety no-no. I get very nervous about sand and eyes. When I was teaching, kids were not allowed to throw sand. Also, they couldn't throw icey snowballs at each other. Sure, both may be fun to do - unless you're on the receiving end.

Giving kids space to resolve conflicts is very important, but as with any skill, it requires modeling and sometimes a supportive facilitator. I think parents can step in just enough to ask kids in conflict what's going on and how they think the problem can be resolved or what would seem fair. This may be true for everyone regardless of age, but young kids especially can be so caught up in the heat and emotion of the moment, that having someone step in to ask a few questions (not necessarily directing behavior) can give them the space to approach the problem in a new and more productive way. When I was teaching, if I saw kids having a conflict (not involving physical agression) I would get close enough to hear what was going on, and depending on what was being said, either step in right away or give it a little time to resolve itself. I often left the problem-solving up to the kids, but let them know I was there to offer support.


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## Kreeblim (Dec 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
Well I guess IMO then if being a helicoptor parent means that we intervene when our children are treating others unfairly, and making sure that they are safe then that's what I want to be. as for letting children work things out for themselves, take child A for example then, who is the one being bossy, not sharing, throwing sand, etc. then take child B who doesnt stick up for himself. let them work it out then, and whos going to be the clear winner? Child A. then, if Child A is getting what they want because they think that their behaviour is perfectly fine, because mommy's sitting on the bench over there and if I was doing something wrong then wouldn't she come and stop me, then that's how she'll continue to act, no? the lesson there to me is, yes its okay to take advantage of those less assertive than you, and you only have to share or compromise when the other person has a stronger personality. i think that those moms sitting on the bench call it helicoptering to make themselves feel better about their lack of attention to their child's behaviours.

The OP was not talking about intervening when her child was the bully...she was talking about intervening when her child was the target. It would be nice if all parents parented like I do, but they don't so it's not my job to do it for them. If OP wanted to protect her child from any unfair treatment other kids might commit, that's fine because he is HER child, but it must be done by parenting her child, not everybody elses. Whether that is letting him work things out, or stepping in and doing it for him is up to her.

To add to the perspective of one of the PPs on letting kids work it out themselves, I have 2 x 5 year olds right now, though they are genetically cousins, not brothers. My nephew is a very smart analytical type A personality and can be possesive but tends to be very good about explaining the rules patiently because he's learned that he will have more playmates if he doesn't expect them to do things exactly like he does. My son is very cooperative, imaginitive, laidback and sensitive, which makes them like a kindergarden version of the Odd Couple.

It is very easy to see them interacting in a way that makes people want to "protect" my son. For instance, if we get two nearly identical toys and my son seems really happy with his, my nephew will ask if he can have it instead because he doesn't like his. My son will see how unhappy my nephew is and decide to trade, even though it was very clear he liked the first toy a great deal. I let it be...they are both happy. My MiL has stepped in and forbidden this type of cooperation because she doesn't think it's "fair" to my son.

Other times we have gotten two things and they both wanted the same one. When they were younger, we would simply hand them each one, and if they didn't like the one they got, then too bad, and screaming and crying ensued, along with lots of petty behavior like yelling "I want that one!" anytime they knew they were gonna get to pick from two objects. Now we take no part in determining who gets what. They must work out who gets which one, and if they can't mutually agree then the objects will remain in my custody. I would say that most of the time my nephew ends up with the one they both wanted. Could I intervene because it's unfair that my nephew almost always gets his way? Sure, and sometimes if they have stale-mated in their negotiating I'll suggest things they might not have thought of (like one kid gets first choice this time and they agree that the other gets it next time, etc.) but for the most part they are EXTREMELY mature for 5 year olds so why would I mess with that? My MiL will "let them decide" and then change it up if she feels the result is unfair, and guess what...they are whiney and arguemenitive around her. I can hand them two differently colored cupcakes and I know they'll talk it out and both walk away happy with a cupcake...at MiL's house that situation is a nightmare.

Plus, just because in that one situation my son seems to get the "short end of the stick", doesn't mean he actually is a doormat to my type-A nephew. Sometimes they'll ask if a friend can come over, and I explain that I don't want other kids at the house unless the toys are picked up. Guess who gets their entire shared bedroom organised while Mr.Easygoing just lounges on the bed looking at books?

It's so funny because you can actually hear them bickering: "Hey! You need to help pick up!" "OK, I'll put the books away." (a few minutes later) "You only put away 2 books!" "I'm still reading the rest!!!" The room ends up cleaned, and they both benefit from the friend coming over, though my nephew did most of the work. Despite the frustration during the process, they both come out happy.

They have very real personality differences that are likely to continue into adulthood. My nephew has learned that he can't expect everybody else to care about things as much as him, so while it's OK to be a perfectionist, he seems to understand that sometimes if he's the one who cares, he's the one who will have to make it happen. My son has learned that many things are just not worth the stress of a fight if they really aren't that important to him. I don't know if artificially leveling the fairness field would change their fundamental personalities or save them any grief in the long-run.

If your son having the toy all to himself is more important to you than it is to your son, it might just be worth not bringing it to the park. If it IS important to your son, he will figure out how to deal with the situation in a way that fits his personality (be that playing with it somewhere else, getting more confrontational, asking to come back when it's less crowded etc.). There's nothing wrong with talking to him, giving him suggestions, or supporting him in ways that require your help (like going home if he wants to deal with it in that way) but it's just not your place to correct other people's kids. I really do understand the desire to protect him from kids with stronger personalities, but nothing occurring is really that abnormal for a public park with kids that age. If your son is getting the short end of the stick, then it is up to you to teach your son how he should deal with it instead of getting upset and imagining what it would be like in a perfect world where other parents came over and stopped their kids from treating him unfairly.

FWIW I do see safety issues as a "step in" type of sitution, but unfairness alone is not a safety issue. I really detest the spinning "merry-go-round" thing on one of the playgrounds here because it looks like the funnest thing ever to kids under age two, but the 8 year olds make it go so fast that it will really screw a toddler up pretty badly. When my 2 year old goes near it I spin him slowly if it's empty, and remove him if bigger kids get on it. I've seen other parents of toddlers yell at bigger kids to go slower and frankly that bothers me. You just can't contol other people's kids, and the whole playground doesn't grind to a halt just because my son is too young to play safely on that one piece of equipment.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 
FWIW I do see safety issues as a "step in" type of sitution, but unfairness alone is not a safety issue. I really detest the spinning "merry-go-round" thing on one of the playgrounds here because it looks like the funnest thing ever to kids under age two, but the 8 year olds make it go so fast that it will really screw a toddler up pretty badly. When my 2 year old goes near it I spin him slowly if it's empty, and remove him if bigger kids get on it. I've seen other parents of toddlers yell at bigger kids to go slower and frankly that bothers me. You just can't contol other people's kids, and the whole playground doesn't grind to a halt just because my son is too young to play safely on that one piece of equipment.

Mostly I've got no beef with how you are treating your son/nephew. I think that sibling stuff is very different from interacting with random people at a park, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.













In the case of the merry-go-round I think that there is nothing wrong with saying, "Hey big kids, are you ok with going slow for a little kid for a few minutes?" I've done this and the big kids were completely awesome about it. They slowed down to barely moving and then very solicitously asked her if she wanted it faster or slower. It was an awesome interaction for all of them. When she was done and grinning like crazy she thanked them and they were very thrilled that they had made her day.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Wow, this thread made my head spin. I don't have that much to add other than the fact that I think those of you who believe in independence-it-will-all-work-out are being a bit naive. I teach 14-15-16 year olds and many bullying behaviors (or is that "strong personality types?) still exist by that age. A classroom full of students interacting with one another requires constant supervision, and constant intervention when things get unfair. Its never OK to assume that a kid who is being treated unfairly should just suck it up (er, I mean deal with it themselves) because then all they learn is that life is unfair _for them_ so there must be something wrong with them.

Even high school students have to be taught how to share.

I was the kid on the playground and in school that was bullied, so I am super0sensitive to that dynamic. Bullying certainly does not just mean physical violence! The most hurtful types are when a kid is just plain evil to you, or treats you unfairly. I wish more adults had interveined for me. Instead I was just told that if everyone was mean to me it must be because "you did something to deserve it" or "there must be something wrong with you". Thanks for THAT lesson, but I would really rather not have my kid learn that adults cannot be trusted to be fair if its easier not to be.

One last thing on this note is that I see many of the answers here as parential justification for making thinks easier on themselves. I'm not ok with that.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
One last thing on this note is that I see many of the answers here as parential justification for making thinks easier on themselves. I'm not ok with that.

Okay, since you're getting a little personal here...yeah, you got me. Trying my best to ONLY intervene when there are safety issues (and I include emotional bullying as a safety issue--I suspect my threshold for what constitutes that is probably higher than yours though) DOES make my life easier--because I'm not giving into my inner control freak and feeling responsible for micromanaging all interactions near me to my liking and then wasting energy being pissed about something that I truly have very little control over (other people's actions) If you want to make life as difficult as possible for yourself, then that is cool. But me, I do like to save my energy for other things.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Bullying certainly does not just mean physical violence! The most hurtful types are when a kid is just plain evil to you, or treats you unfairly. I wish more adults had interveined for me. Instead I was just told that if everyone was mean to me it must be because "you did something to deserve it" or "there must be something wrong with you". Thanks for THAT lesson, but I would really rather not have my kid learn that adults cannot be trusted to be fair if its easier not to be.


I completely agree with you. I think not stepping in until someone is getting physically hurt is completely baffling to me. Usuually, the worst hurt is not physical.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EviesMom* 
Sharing is with other people who are behaving appropriately. What you're describing is frankly, bullying. I'm afraid by saying you'll share, you're enabling them to victimize your DS. I would keep all the toys that your son is not actively using in a mesh bag over your shoulder. Tell the kids no the minute they try to take them. I think this would solve it, because they know you're not going to force "sharing" of your DS' property, and it should cut off the bullying before it starts. I would also teach him that it's nice to share with his friends, but that he does not have to share with strangers nor do what they want him to do. To me, it's the beginning of "stranger danger" concepts--even if they're kids, if they give you a bad vibe, you don't have to do anything with them, do what they say, or give them your stuff.

When there's a reasonable kid who wants to share and your DS wants to share, you can get toys out of the bag for him/her. I do this with my kids, and even though they don't play with me as often, they bring me toys when they're done with them and their shoes/sweaters if they take them off. It makes it easier to be ready to leave, honestly, stuff isn't strewn all over, but it also helps with toy takers.

Wow.

We were at the beach a few weekends ago and two boys came up and started playing with my son's toys. Didn't bother me and it certainly wasn't "bullying." For the record, they were 3 year old twins and my son is almost-5.

Bullying may be when you ask for them back or say no and they don't do that. But just playing with sand toys that are there in a public space is...being a kid.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Wow, this thread made my head spin. I don't have that much to add other than the fact that I think those of you who believe in independence-it-will-all-work-out are being a bit naive. I teach 14-15-16 year olds and many bullying behaviors (or is that "strong personality types?) still exist by that age. A classroom full of students interacting with one another requires constant supervision, and constant intervention when things get unfair. Its never OK to assume that a kid who is being treated unfairly should just suck it up (er, I mean deal with it themselves) because then all they learn is that life is unfair _for them_ so there must be something wrong with them.

Even high school students have to be taught how to share.

I was the kid on the playground and in school that was bullied, so I am super0sensitive to that dynamic. Bullying certainly does not just mean physical violence! The most hurtful types are when a kid is just plain evil to you, or treats you unfairly. I wish more adults had interveined for me. Instead I was just told that if everyone was mean to me it must be because "you did something to deserve it" or "there must be something wrong with you". Thanks for THAT lesson, but I would really rather not have my kid learn that adults cannot be trusted to be fair if its easier not to be.

One last thing on this note is that I see many of the answers here as parential justification for making thinks easier on themselves. I'm not ok with that.

Are you seriously suggesting that a young (under 6) child at the park saying "don't look at me! he's looking at me!" is being evil?

Because that was the example the OP gave.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

Ladies,

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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

"those of you who believe in independence-it-will-all-work-out are being a bit naive"
Here's the thing.

I don't see anyone here who thinks that independence will allow them to work things out perfectly.

There is NO-ONE here who is okay with physical violence, name calling, or taunting. I haven't read a single person who says that's okay.

But heated disagreements aren't bullying. What the mom described was unfairness, but not bullying, per se. Toddlers and pre-schoolers tend to hoard.

Quote:

"Please try not to be judgmental of those you perceive as "helicoptering.""
I hope I don't come across as judging others. Different kids have different needs and I totally respect the OP's decision to parent her child at the park in this way. She has the right. My only beef is with the expectation that others parent their children in the same way.

Quote:

"I really disagree with this. Parks are designed for multi age use by simple virtue of the infant swing, the special needs swing and regular swings-- if parents aren't willing to moderate or accept intervention from other parents so that their children don't run over the itty bitty babies, then maybe they shouldn't take their kids to the park.

Or maybe cities should make special infant only parks filled with infant swings. Except where will families go who have multiple kids of various ages? I guess they have to stay home????

The very fact it's not all roses is why parents need to be attuned to what's going on and ensure their kids aren't terrorizing anyone. Parks should not be synonymous with Lord of the Flies. It's not Survivor, it's a public park where regular manners and social niceties still apply.

Children need some level of supervision to ensure that public spaces are enjoyed by everyone. In real life, we can't control the environment or the needs of the people around our children, so why must the park fit a specific demographic?

I don't see the logic in your statement. It makes no sense to me."
Okay, let me refine my statement.

If you are looking for a place where:

-all the other kids are required to be on polite behavior 100% of the time, or face a consequence
-you will not have to watch out for your own child to the same degree you would if the other kids weren't
-your child is only interacting with polite, kind children

Then the park isn't the place for you. "Some level of supervision" does not mean, to me, standing by the sandbox and enforcing politesse.

I bring my baby to the park. She's 14 months. When it's fairly empty or crowded mainly with children under four, I let her wander and keep my eyes on the high spots and exits. When it's got older kids, runners mainly, I certainly stay within a yard or two, and corral her.

I have only once had to ask anything of older children. It was in a mixed-age park with three "big toys" and high-schoolers were playing lava tag on all three. I asked them if they could leave one for the babies and little kids. They did. It really wasn't that hard on me or them. I would easily go back to the same park.

Quote:

"see many of the answers here as parential justification for making thinks easier on themselves. I'm not ok with that."
I really get irritated when people suggest that leaving a child some room to breathe and develop is lazy, or just "easy". It's not like I can engage in my hobbies while at the park. I don't have a 3-g phone or anything. At most I can read a book, but not a really engaging one because I *am* supervising from afar. Just... from afar. I can't even freaking knit, because it's windy where I live and it gets to be a huge mess. I just stand there, bored. It would be more interesting for me to keep my kids at home while I cooked, minded them in their playroom, and I dunno, updated my facebook.

But I take them to the park because that is a place they love to be. They love the air, to explore, to be free from house rules, to scream, to talk with lots of other kids, to learn.

I don't think it's lazy of me at all to stand there for hours. It is one of the things I make a big effort to do on sunny days, even if it means that I do not get to write my book or live in the clean house I dream of or eat delicious meals that require "simmer for one hour".


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimberlyD0* 
I'm that parents sitting back and watching my children (2 and 5) play on their own. The playground here is made for very young children. I tend to let them play one their own (free play) and only intervine when they need something or they are doing something they can't/shouldn't do on their own. Of course if they want me to play with them I'm there too, but that doesn't happen much lol

DD#1 is out going and extreamly independent, always has been, and actually gets really upset if I get into her space. DD#2 is more sensitive and shy. She'll come running back to me often just to be assured I am still there, but I find she plays better on her own then she does with me. Like she's holding back.

I don't know if this is why the other adults in the park do that, but its pretty common here. Wish I had advice you wanted to hear for you. I would mostly just suggest don't get stressed out by it. You can't control what everyone else is doing and you are not responsible for the other children. Keep doing what you find works for you









Maybe I'm just a bad mom







but thats how we were raised too. I also let my kids play outside in the back yard for a few minutes at a time if I need to do something, like got to the bathroom, or make lunch or whatever else. Its all I've ever known and it seems to work for the girls. They play on their own inside pretty well too, while I cook, or do laundry (DD#1 loves to help now







) or just need 5 minutes of down time.

Same here. I'm thrilled for my kids to finally be at the point where they can go off and play on the equipment while I park it on the bench. I do keep a watchful on ds because he doesn't understand appropriate social behavior, which tends to get him into trouble with other kids. As long as it doesn't escalate, I stay out of it, but most of the time he prefers to be by himself anyway.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:

I'm not saying let your kid get beat on but I do think it important that children learn to stand up for themselves. They're not going to learn to do it if you are always the one who does it for them.
I agree. Obviously there is a time to step in, but I don't think its healthy in the long run to protect them from every aggressive playground encounter, as much of it simply the reality of grouping children of different developmental ages in same place. Ds used to be that sensitive, passive kid, but he has learned to be more assertive and speak up when someone isn't being kind _because_ these experiences with other children have taught him in a way that I couldn't.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Wow.

We were at the beach a few weekends ago and two boys came up and started playing with my son's toys. Didn't bother me and it certainly wasn't "bullying." For the record, they were 3 year old twins and my son is almost-5.

Bullying may be when you ask for them back or say no and they don't do that. But just playing with sand toys that are there in a public space is...being a kid.

The OP described much older children running in and taking all the OPs child's toys including grabbing the ones out of his hands, and telling him that he couldn't use any of their toys. That is bullying. Playing with toys from around the playground is obviously not. My personal rule is "if you leave it somewhere, someone else may play with it. If you don't want someone else to play with your toy, you need to give it to mom when you're done." That lets my kids decide if they want to share a toy or not. 95% of the time, they do. That works for us.


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## babygirlie (Jun 4, 2009)

Hmm it takes a village... as they say. I don't think parents should not supervise their children. No one here watches their kids from 3-12 and they just vandalize houses. I find it astrotious they allow their kids to bully yours. Be a helicopter mom. go ahead let them call you names but someone needs to teach those kids manners and apparently their chat time is more important than that. At least you CARE. Hover as much as you want! That's you child for lord's sake!


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think that honestly, what I'm reading here seems to be a lot of parents of younger toddlers and pre-schoolers speaking to parents of pre-schoolers and up. They are still socializing their itty-bitty ones and do not believe that a child-based social environment, in which kids are allowed to make mistakes, is part of that.

Perhaps this is really parents of wee ones to parents of big ones saying, hey, look, my little one is not ready for your big one's caprices. Please manage your child!

But to that I would say: a child that is not ready to play with other kids is not ready for the park. It's not all roses at the park or anywhere else.

This. The same behaviors in preschoolers/young gradeschoolers that used to upset me when my oldest was a small toddler I now recognize as age-expected behavior. I think its unfair and realistic to not allow a 4- or 5-year-old the freedom to _act_ 4- or 5-years-old because it creates a less than perfect playground experience for the 2-year-olds.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jugs* 
This. The same behaviors in preschoolers/young gradeschoolers that used to upset me when my oldest was a small toddler I now recognize as age-expected behavior. I think its unfair and realistic to not allow a 4- or 5-year-old the freedom to _act_ 4- or 5-years-old because it creates a less than perfect playground experience for the 2-year-olds.

Well said. It is funny. I have a ten year old and a six old and I would be fine with taking them to a playground because they are old enough that I am confident that they have learned how to interact appropriately, but I never take my 3 year old because honestly I am afriad he is going to act like a 3 year old and someone who has a toddler is going to see him as "much older" or poorly mannered (or even a BULLY??? I have never heard the term used about kids this little...weird) and be unkind to him. As much as a 2 year old can't stand up to a 4 year old, I really don't need my 3 year old dealing with someone in their 20's, 30's or 40's.

Honestly, thanks for this thread. Reminds me why we play in the backyard with friends who we invite over


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

I have been in similar situations but my frustration was a language barrier. I will explain. There is a set of twins in our town. One of them is the ring leader and she will find a kid to torment and her sister will join in. My dd1 is somewhat like you lo. She is the kid that doesn't stick up fer herself, although sheis getting better.

A couple of months ago we were at the playground. My dd was palying on a stinking pole-not a toy or playground equipment, just a stupid pole. Said twin came over and started trying to push her off. Dd1 gets upset but won't get off. It continues like this. SO I wonder over and I ask dd1 if the girl could have a turn she says no. This is like our 3rd run in with this girl so I am not making dd1 share the pole (if it was a swing or something I would think about it). So girl continues to try to pry dd1 off and dd1 is now in tears but holding on. (Sister joins in occasionally but then wanders off to play on the slide.) I tell her she is doing fine and she deosn't have to get off if she doesn't want to. But then i step back and keep my distance for a bit.

Where is little girl's mom? sitting 3 feet away watching her daughter terrorize mine. After literally 10 minutes of this crap I finally took her daughter's arm and said firmly "No, you don't do that. Its rude. Go away." in my best french possible. Next time I will have words with the mom.

If there was no language barrier. I would seriously approach the other caregivers. I would say, Hi sorry to interrupt but your child is stealing all of my kids stuff. We are more than willing to share but I would appreciate it if your kids didn't just rip it out of my lo's hands.

Or

Hi is there a reason you feel its okay to casually sit here and watch your kid throw sand in my child's face?

Or I would physically pick up other child take back my kids toy and remove other child from the immediate vicinity of my kid. Maybe then parents or nannies would get off their butts and come see what the fuss was all about.

I know it is hard to teach kids to share but not let stuff be stolen from them. I always tell dd1 that its great to share if someone asks (if they can talk-she understands that babies are exceptions, although even babies don't have to be allowed to grab stuff out of our hands) or if she wants to give something to someone. But people who just come up and take are being rude and its okay if you don't want to share with them.

I believe that kids need to learn to work things out for themselves too. But dd1 is 3 not 13. At a certain point, if she can't or if she is doing her best but the other kid is just not getting it, I am going to intervene, especially when the other parent is just sitting there watching it happen.


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

Okay i read some of the other posts. I just want to say that there is a big difference from chlling on the bench, while keeping your kids in eyesight and intervening when needed versus sitting on the bench and being so engaged in another task you forgot you are at the park with a kid that you are responsible for (as seems to be the case in op).

i too sit on the grass with dd2, who just started crawling, while keeping an eye on dd1, who runs off to play alone or with others.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
IME, nannies often want to separate as much as the mothers. I wouldn't assume the moms were being snotty, but then, I have a nanny.

Yep, it's pretty clear from all the responses on this one that snobbery isn't going to be the cause of the division.









I'm quoting your post because you specifically mentioned "want to separate." Having large groups of two distinct categories limits the ability to move to watch the child they're supervising. It's all very well to say that you'd step in for a safety issue, but that's nonsense if you aren't sitting where you can see your kid.

ETA: yeah, I know kids got out of line of sight and things can happen in an instant, but if your kid's been out of view for 5+ minutes, it's time to move.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I hate playgrounds.

I also often find myself the only person taking care of kids. I have one small toddler who could easily walk in front of a swing and get bashed in the head, or fall off the slide, or any number of things. And one five year old who tends to be very overbearing with younger or smaller kids, so I do have to keep close tabs on her.

And I thought it was a shame last time we went that another mom with a small toddler was letting hers wander freely, and I had to stop my daughter's swing to keep this other child from getting bashed.

I've herded other toddlers away from the swing path. Stood in the way and gently flapped my hands at them "careful sweetie, there's a swing."


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GreenTeaGinger61* 
And just an added note, the helicopter parents are as equally annoying as the parents who do nothing (there is a balance). There was a parent at the spray/play ground yesterday who was running around, GRABBING other parents to tell them that their children were doing things to her child..things like "Your child is telling my child what to do!" She was NUTS. She was frantic trying to control EVERYONE at the park. I once had a mom almost push my two year off a play structure because she thought my kid was pushing her one year old (whom she wasn't watching at the time). I mean seriously...you're going to push a two year old?

Those aren't helicopter parents. Those are parenting bullies. A helicopter parent would've been watching her kid closely enough to have told your kid "be careful, there's a baby!"


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bellabaz* 
Or I would physically pick up other child take back my kids toy and remove other child from the immediate vicinity of my kid. Maybe then parents or nannies would get off their butts and come see what the fuss was all about.

You have gotten so much advice. i think it's very hard to decide how to handle things. i would really suggest you NOT physically handle the children of other people. That could really really get out of hand quickly, with parents being very violent. Physically blocking them, or taking the toy away I could see, and a stern talking to, but never picking them up.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
But I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that they completely tune out and turn off. At MOST, we say that we keep a distance and watch for the children to get in real fights (hitting, rude language, etc.) before we step in.

The thing is a real fight comes after a break down of social skills. If you are too afraid of stepping in when intervention isn't necessary, you miss the chance to step in at the middle stage when an ounce of prevention works.

One quick "hey, kiddo, is everyone having fun?" when there's a frustrated look can defuse things.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I teach 14-15-16 year olds and many bullying behaviors (or is that "strong personality types?) still exist by that age. A classroom full of students interacting with one another requires constant supervision, and constant intervention when things get unfair.

This is interesting. Adults still do this type of power struggle/energy share. So do we need to have parents follow us through college so that those kids still don't have to learn to say "Stop! I won't tolerate it" Or until we'll 30, to help us when we get our first jobs? When does it stop?

This is way outside of the OPs discussion. I have to agree with Jugs

Quote:

Obviously there is a time to step in, but I don't think its healthy in the long run to protect them from every aggressive playground encounter, as much of it simply the reality of grouping children of different developmental ages in same place. Ds used to be that sensitive, passive kid, but he has learned to be more assertive and speak up when someone isn't being kind because these experiences with other children have taught him in a way that I couldn't.
I have much older children, and I have a baby. I parent him completely differently than I did my 15 yo, in party because I can recognize appropriate developmental stages in a different way after guiding other children through it. I don't take those things personally, and I see it as an opportunity to meet and help other children. no, that's not my job, to parent, but it's not painful to say matter of factly, "Nope, that's his, I have this other shovel you can use" I can be joyful that I am with my child, and with the others, rather than resent the fact that I'm part of a community in which I AM interacting with an older child.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 
I really detest the spinning "merry-go-round" thing on one of the playgrounds here because it looks like the funnest thing ever to kids under age two, but the 8 year olds make it go so fast that it will really screw a toddler up pretty badly. When my 2 year old goes near it I spin him slowly if it's empty, and remove him if bigger kids get on it. I've seen other parents of toddlers yell at bigger kids to go slower and frankly that bothers me. You just can't contol other people's kids, and the whole playground doesn't grind to a halt just because my son is too young to play safely on that one piece of equipment.









This is a good example of why my neighborhood park rocks. If we're already using the merry-go-round, parents remind their kids to go slowly for the baby, or kids ask if they can use it when we're done.

My usual response is "here, let me get on and hold her and then you can push as fast as you like".







Sure, I get a bit dizzy, but dd loves it.

OTOH, when she wants to join a crowd on the tire swing, I direct her out of the way with "sorry, kiddo, you're not quite ready to go fast enough for the big kids to have fun". And then I've had to tell the older kids that they can keep on playing because they all start asking if dd wants a turn.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Here's the thing, I *do* know about normal preschool behavior. We go to the Children's Museum (Indianapolis has the largest one in the world) several times a week. I have seen literally hundreds of kids of each age from 0 to 15 using shared equipment, interacting with older kids, interacting with younger kids. (Besides our time at the park, and dd's six older cousins, 3 who are 3, and 3 who are 6.)

I know when a "careful guys!" can keep a game fun for everyone instead of being a frantic free for all that knocks over all the nearby toddlers and half the non participating preschoolers.


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## not_telling (Mar 31, 2008)

To piggy-back on what I posted earlier about my experience as a teacher of young kids and also on what some other posters have said (e.g. sapphire_chan), I guess I'm feeling somewhat dismayed that so many responses to OP seem to be about not always protecting your LO from the hard knocks of life so that s/he can learn to stand up for herself/himself. OP was frustrated by the lack of intervention/support/facilitation from the other caregivers.

Yes, there are lots of "inappropriate" behaviors that are absolutely expected of kids at various ages - e.g. the toddler/preschooler who hoards everything and wants what other kids have. But I think part of our job as the grownups in these kids lives is to guide them toward being the wonderful adults we want them to be. It's true that there are many adults who don't seem to have learned to "play fair" - I don't think this means their parents should have followed them through college, as another poster joked. But it does make me wonder if perhaps those adults did NOT receive enough guidance about "playing fair" when they were growing up. Maybe their grown-ups believed that "kids will be kids" and let kids work everything out for themselves.


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## MJB (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd rather give my kids the tools to stand up to bullies than intervene for them. My boys are 7 and 4 and we have talked a LOT about bullying. They are allowed to play outside unsupervised with the unsupervised neighbor kids (who are all 8+). I trust them to stand up for themselves and others. I have heard from their teachers and personally witnessed them standing up for children who are being treated unfairly or unkindly. My 7 yr. old is very much a people-pleaser and is always happy to share/trade, but he's not a pushover. Like the example with the two cousins, everyone walks away happy.

In the example with the sand toys, if the child was 3+, we'd talk about it on the way there and I would arm them with things to say and do in case of conflict. Then I'd sit on a bench and watch as my child handled minor playground disagreements on their own. We'd talk about it more on the way home. If someone was hurt or crying, I'd walk over and intervene momentarily. If I just stood there speaking for my child, I would not be empowering him/her to speak up for himself. My job is to raise independent, capable people who don't need me there to hold their hand, and IMO 3 is a fine age to work on that from a playground bench.

FWIW neither of my children have ever bitten another child and I don't think they've ever hit or thrown sand at anyone on a playground, so I'm not justifying any bad behavior here.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *not_telling* 
To piggy-back on what I posted earlier about my experience as a teacher of young kids and also on what some other posters have said (e.g. sapphire_chan), I guess I'm feeling somewhat dismayed that so many responses to OP seem to be about not always protecting your LO from the hard knocks of life so that s/he can learn to stand up for herself/himself. OP was frustrated by the lack of intervention/support/facilitation from the other caregivers.


It's not about appropriate play to me. It's about different expectations. I don't think it's my right to decide what should be okay for every other child at a playground. That's what the OP sounds like she's doing. It's also what I see lots of other parents do.

As an example, we have one of those things - don't know what they're called - like a firefighter's pole, but it had a twisted metal piece outside the pole you can climb up and down on. Since DC were young 2s, they've climbed up and down that thing. Their feet have slipped, but they've never fallen. At 3 and 5, they shimmy up it without a thought. I've had other parents spot them. Why? There's no need. I've had 2 or 3 parents who are hovering over their kids say, "your daughter is climbing this." I say, "I see her. She's fine." And then they still spot her. That's their problem, not mine. They have different comfort levels, and that's okay. It doesn't mean, however, that I'm "not watching my kids," but I'm sure that's how they feel.

For those of us who talk about independent play, that's the kind of thing we mean. It's not the job of the most cautious or fearful parent to force their concerns on everyone else.

Words are another example. I don't like words like "stupid" to be said. I would speak to my children if they said them, but if two other kids are talking and one says "stupid?" It's not my place to jump in and say anything. If I had an 18MO, and they called him/her stupid, I would say something. If they called my children now stupid, both of my children could make it clear - using words - that they don't like it. And they'd likely exclude that child from play if it continued, and I'd congratulate them later for sticking up for their personal boundaries. I have the feeling that many people here would still defend their 5YO rather than let the child do it, and that's just not the approach I take.

"We're raising adults, not children" really is my mantra. I think about my role as a parent as preparing my children in appropriate developmental ways for the rest of their lives, and I don't think I do that by stepping in on their behalf all of the time.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I sort of think people are talking at cross purposes here. I didn't hear anyone here saying "people shouldn't let their kids do things I think are too dangerous for my kids." Honestly, it bugs the [email protected] out of me when people tell my kids thet aren't using the playground equipment "appropriately" too (assuming they aren't doing something that is dangerous for some one else - like jumping off the play structure without regard for the group of kids sitting in the sand underneath them, or something). What people are saying is - if you kid is hurting mine, either physically or with words or by stealing their things, it would be nice if you could intervene. And it would be nice, but clearly all parents aren't going to. So those parents shouldn't be surprised if I see something that I think needs intervention (involving my child) and I do intervene. If my kid is not capable of saying "Stop stealing my toys" or "Stop screaming in my ear" - or the other child doesn't care about what my child is requesting, perhaps because they know that their parent won't come and ask them to stop, I have no problem going and telling the child myself. Sometimes an adult saying something will get a child's attention in a way that hearing it from another child doesn't.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I agree, Jen.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
Thanks to those who pointed out that I meant it's the kids' domain, not the grown-ups.

.

I know you meant the child's domain. I said that it isnt just YOUR CHILDS domain, it is for all of the children. perhaps read the post again.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kreeblim* 
The OP was not talking about intervening when her child was the bully...she was talking about intervening when her child was the target. .

well, maybe I took the OP wrong, but to me it meant that she wished that the parents and nannies of the other children would step in when they are being unfair to her "target" child. That's really the problem, is when parents think that throwing sand is a perfectly okay behavior for the park, or that grabbing toys and such is okay. they clearly think its okay if there are no consequences for it...


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
The thing is a real fight comes after a break down of social skills. If you are too afraid of stepping in when intervention isn't necessary, you miss the chance to step in at the middle stage when an ounce of prevention works.

One quick "hey, kiddo, is everyone having fun?" when there's a frustrated look can defuse things.

It's not that I am afraid of stepping in when it's not necessary.

It's that I really, genuinely believe it is necessary for children to learn to defuse things themselves, to learn their limits, to learn consequences.

I know that your daughter is a younger toddler and at her age, certainly, I would be stepping in.

But the park IS a multi-age environment. It's not fair to ask the older kids to behave perfectly just because there's a baby there. Parents of babies need to watch their babies, not expect everyone else to watch their kids mind the babies.

Quote:

I said that it isnt just YOUR CHILDS domain, it is for all of the children. perhaps read the post again.
Yeah. I know. My post referred to my own child, but I meant CHILDREN'S not ONLY MY CHILD. I'm sorry if that was confusing. Obviously my child does not own twelve parks across our district. I didn't even think that would even enter into somebody's head, which is why I wasn't careful in the way I stated it originally.

That does not mean that my child has to be perfect at the park all the time. Parents of vulnerable babies and toddlers need to mind them. Parents of pre-schoolers and older kids, I think, have the right to let them play on their own a bit. That does not include physical violence or taking things. But protecting a moat? Sure. Hoarding one's own toys? Maybe that's how they do it in their family.

I don't think learning to be a good citizen consists of constantly being told what to do. Sometimes it involves experimentation and working it out.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

children need to learn that there are all sorts of other people in the world, all ages, sizes, etc. not just babies, but just other people. they need to learn to be respectful of all others. it doesnt matter whether they are being disrespectful to a baby, to a child their age, or to an adult. if they are acting inappropriately, then their parent should step in and tell them that it's not okay. whether they are in their own home, a park, someone elses home, at the grocery store... whatever. no one here is saying to step in when your child is doing something that they should be doing, but to step in when they are being rude or disrespectful. I don't get why doing so is considered hovering. No one is saying to watch out for the babies and everyone change their behaviours for the babies and dont act like a five year old because there's a baby. But throwing sand, grabbing toys, etc, is not okay just because they like to do that at that age. they have to learn somewhere that its not okay to do that.


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## Bellabaz (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
children need to learn that there are all sorts of other people in the world, all ages, sizes, etc. not just babies, but just other people. they need to learn to be respectful of all others. it doesnt matter whether they are being disrespectful to a baby, to a child their age, or to an adult. if they are acting inappropriately, then their parent should step in and tell them that it's not okay. whether they are in their own home, a park, someone elses home, at the grocery store... whatever. no one here is saying to step in when your child is doing something that they should be doing, but to step in when they are being rude or disrespectful. I don't get why doing so is considered hovering. No one is saying to watch out for the babies and everyone change their behaviours for the babies and dont act like a five year old because there's a baby. But throwing sand, grabbing toys, etc, is not okay just because they like to do that at that age. they have to learn somewhere that its not okay to do that.

This.

This is what I took the op for meaning. Not that the other parents have to make their kids follow her rules. But that there are certain social boundaries that need to be taught/present, whatever, and its the caregivers job to do thisThis is not smothering or hovering.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Here's the thing, I *do* know about normal preschool behavior. We go to the Children's Museum (Indianapolis has the largest one in the world) several times a week. I have seen literally hundreds of kids of each age from 0 to 15 using shared equipment, interacting with older kids, interacting with younger kids. (Besides our time at the park, and dd's six older cousins, 3 who are 3, and 3 who are 6.)

I know when a "careful guys!" can keep a game fun for everyone instead of being a frantic free for all that knocks over all the nearby toddlers and half the non participating preschoolers.

One of the things I miss about Indy--the Children's Museum!

I agree with you. My kids range from teen to toddler. But I still do the same basic stuff with my youngest as I did with my oldest when he was a toddler. Guidance is not hovering.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *not_telling* 
Yes, there are lots of "inappropriate" behaviors that are absolutely expected of kids at various ages - e.g. the toddler/preschooler who hoards everything and wants what other kids have. But I think part of our job as the grownups in these kids lives is to guide them toward being the wonderful adults we want them to be. It's true that there are many adults who don't seem to have learned to "play fair" - I don't think this means their parents should have followed them through college, as another poster joked. But it does make me wonder if perhaps those adults did NOT receive enough guidance about "playing fair" when they were growing up. Maybe their grown-ups believed that "kids will be kids" and let kids work everything out for themselves.

Well although I agree there is a time to step in (but I haven't seen that in the OP's specific comments) here's what I see too in my workplace -- there are often a group of people who seem more obsessed with "fairness" than doing their actual work. People who are constantly obsessing over OTHER people's behaviour and behaving as if they have LESS control than they do.

So...I dunno. I think there's a real balance there to be struck.

And no, I'm not saying we have to have a Lord of the Flies environment. I do think there is a huge, huge life lesson in understanding that although setting boundaries is great and standing up for ourselves when necessary is also great...expending a ton of life energy on what everyone else should or shouldn't be doing can be a detriment not just to yourself but to everyone around you.

If the bigger kids are hogging the toys, it may be time to step in. But it may also be time to build a crazy cool Mountain Of Sand And Road And Stick Drawbridge without toys and chances are good they'll join in the fun and start sharing. It's like if the swings are full, go on the slide. I'm not saying that's ALWAYS the right response. But I'm saying it's good to have it in the repertoire.

I really feel for the OP because she isn't enjoying her local park. It may well be there is a problem. But for me, most of what she listed I would just let go, and enjoy other parts of the park with my son.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Well although I agree there is a time to step in (but I haven't seen that in the OP's specific comments) here's what I see too in my workplace -- there are often a group of people who seem more obsessed with "fairness" than doing their actual work. People who are constantly obsessing over OTHER people's behaviour and behaving as if they have LESS control than they do.

My guess is that they either had true helicopter parents who were jumping on every little unfairness OR they got no adult support for making things fair and had to fight and grab to get everything they wanted.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Oh, and another reason for throwing sand to be stopped, dd just encountered a sand throwing friend and the next time we went to the park, I had to stop her from throwing bark dust. Ergh.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I would stop sand throwing, because I think that causes real physical harm and pain if it gets in the eyes. But I have an 8-year-old, so I look at this from the point of view of parenting an 8-year-old, and it's just plain inappropriate to follow older kids around managing their play and interactions. If someone is truly mean (not just a difference of opinion) or bullying or physical, then I get involved, but generally I'm hands off as far as their play goes. They do need to figure out how to work through most things on their own, because most things that come up are just differences of opinion or areas where they need to learn to compromise. I think the younger kids are, the more hovering they need, but they need their parents to ease up on that as they get older.

My dd plays nicely with younger kids so I'm not worried about her stealing toys from a 2-year-old, but I can't imagine an 8-year-old who chooses to play with 2-year-olds being mean to them.

I have a toddler too, and the 8-year-old obviouslly was a toddler at one point, so I understand the perspective of parents of toddlers, but that's just not what older kids need.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

as it's about general playground dynamics not about the OP's situation

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I can't imagine an 8-year-old who chooses to play with 2-year-olds being mean to them.

Neither can I. In fact, with most 8+-year-olds, I relax when they play with dd. It's really great of them.

For that matter, one on one, 3 and 4 and 5 year olds are fantastic with her too. Where a group of 8 year olds can decide that they're all playing with the baby and things go well, groups of the younger big kids don't seem to have that same skill.

Thanks to our time at CMI, I now supervise most closely when there's a field trip group around. You show me 5 kids with matching t-shirts, and I'll show you relational aggression and an adult who at best does nothing and at worst eggs them on.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I'm pretty shocked at the Lord of the Flies attitude about _two_ year olds. Seriously? Two year olds should be just left alone among groups of older kids? Uhhh... no. I am not a helicopter parent because I am standing 5' away from my (just turned two a week ago) kid making sure that she's doing fine. I am not "hovering" and I don't intervene unless there is a problem. But I'm right there watching.

Given that I had a bigger kid throw me off the playground equipment when I was 6 and broke my arm I will be supervising my kid for a good many years to come, thanks. And this 'kids will be kids' crap is how bullies happen. Until my kid is old enough to defend herself I will not be leaving her alone.

I'm right there with you. I strongly believe (in contrast to some of my "they'll work it out on their own" friends) that young children DO often need help navigating their social landscape. And older kids are so often oblivious to the younger, the physical risks need to be taken seriously.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MJB* 
I'd rather give my kids the tools to stand up to bullies than intervene for them.

Funny. I just read an article about bullying which specified that it's a cultural myth that standing up to bullies stops the bullying. In fact, it's more likely to make the bullying worse. What DOES work, according to the people who study the phenomenon, is a culture that does not tolerate bullying, and critically, ADULT INTERVENTION.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Funny. I just read an article about bullying which specified that it's a cultural myth that standing up to bullies stops the bullying. In fact, it's more likely to make the bullying worse. What DOES work, according to the people who study the phenomenon, is a culture that does not tolerate bullying, and critically, ADULT INTERVENTION.

But how do adults know who the bully is? Many parents are blind to their own child's misdeads. Kids who seem really innocent and meek may well be bullies who are good at manipulating adults. This creates a situation where kids who are openly aggressive are punished, but kids who are subtle and sneaky aren't. The really nasty kids are the ones who've figured out how to get away with antisocial behavior right in front of their parents' watchful eye.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I know I'm jumping in here a bit late (and I haven't read the whole thread, but I did read the first couple and the last couple, so maybe half of it?







), but anyhow... My DS1 is 3 and I'm pretty hands-off. I let him run around and climb up ladders, go down slides, push the merry-go-round, climb on jungle gyms, etc pretty much by himself. I don't think I've 'spotted' him in, oh, probably a solid year or so now. I will intervene if he's throwing sand/dirt/rocks/etc and tell him not to, and if he takes a toy from another kid I'll ask/tell him to give it back (unless of course, they took it first







, and if he pushes/hits another kid I'll tell him that wasn't nice and we'll have a little chat... if he does any of these things repeatedly (or just plain isn't listening) we leave. He gets a warning first, don't worry, but we have left playgrounds and other fun places before and I'm sure we'll do it again.

Personally, I can't stand when other moms give me the evil eye cause' I'm not standing their spotting him and hovering over him constantly. And I've gotten it more than a handful of times. Thanks, I know my kid and I know he's OK and I'm comfy w/ him playing pretty much on his own. I absolutely *HATE* it when other moms/kids tell him he can't do something (like climb up the slide) or that he's too little to do X. He often stops looks back at me, and I shrug and he goes ahead and keeps trying to do it (this is often when other mom/older kid gives me a really truely nasty look like "WTF - your such an awful parent!").

Theres definetly a balance that needs to be met between intervening/spotting/hovering constantly and yet still keeping a watchful eye on them. I do (generally







know where ds1 is when we're at the playground/park, but it often takes me a moment to find him if I've been chatting or playing w/ ds2. And I'm OK with that, though I realize lots of moms aren't.







Just different comfort levels, I guess


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
I'm right there with you. I strongly believe (in contrast to some of my "they'll work it out on their own" friends) that young children DO often need help navigating their social landscape. And older kids are so often oblivious to the younger, the physical risks need to be taken seriously.

But I think that parks are generally not populated by two-year-olds. Most of the kids at parks are two to five, meaning, many of them will be older than two. And those older kids need room to breathe.

If a child is hovering, pushing, etc. than absolutely NOBODY is suggesting they not be supervised. And the OP has every right to defend her own child.

But some of the behaviors described simply are not physically violent, or even verbally abusive. Rude, but not targeted abuse or bullying, in my opinion. I have yet to meet a three-year-old that has never built a moat / castle / house / tunnel / whatever and screamed, "MINE!" It's not the same as bullying.

The park is not a playgroup. The parents and nannys are not under an unspoken contract to use all the same tools and GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Edna, I think that's a little OT









(My 4yo was yelling too







)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

LOL... could not help it, that came out of nowhere. Sorry, OP.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadelbosque* 
Personally, I can't stand when other moms give me the evil eye cause' I'm not standing their spotting him and hovering over him constantly. And I've gotten it more than a handful of times. Thanks, I know my kid and I know he's OK and I'm comfy w/ him playing pretty much on his own. I absolutely *HATE* it when other moms/kids tell him he can't do something (like climb up the slide) or that he's too little to do X. He often stops looks back at me, and I shrug and he goes ahead and keeps trying to do it (this is often when other mom/older kid gives me a really truely nasty look like "WTF - your such an awful parent!").

I agree with you EXCEPT things like climbing up the slide. I have to say it drives me crazy when parents let their kids climb up the slide while there are lots of other kids around (I have no problem if the park is mostly deserted) because -- especially with those spiral slides (which of course are the most fun to climb up) you can't see if someone's coming down/up. I would hate for my kid to accidentally slide feet-first into your kid... Everything else though, I don't see why anyone would tell your kid he's too little to do something, what's it to them?


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
I agree with you EXCEPT things like climbing up the slide. I have to say it drives me crazy when parents let their kids climb up the slide while there are lots of other kids around (I have no problem if the park is mostly deserted) because -- especially with those spiral slides (which of course are the most fun to climb up) you can't see if someone's coming down/up. I would hate for my kid to accidentally slide feet-first into your kid... Everything else though, I don't see why anyone would tell your kid he's too little to do something, what's it to them?

I totally agree with this, climbing up the slide is dangerous when there are lots of kids. And I also agree that it's not my place to try and correct other children to to tell them anything. I do however, think it is THEIR parent's place, and responsibility.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I think it's telling that the "you need to back off and let kids be kids" parents are usually the parents of the yeller/hitter/thrower/grabber.
I have four extremely well-behaved children and I'm a "back off" mom at the playground. We teach our children to behave when we're at home so that when we're out I don't have to correct them.


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## Kellyh_01 (Apr 24, 2006)

Maybe you could go at a different time of day? How about in the evening after dinner? I love the park when there is hardly anyone else there.


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## Okapi (Jul 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
I think it really depends on how old your DS is. When I read your post I thought he was a toddler, until the end when you said that he tells you he likes this park the best. If he is able to say that, then I think he's able to speak for himself on the playground too. ***ETA:Unless your DS is prone to violence, then I'd stick close. But that doesn't sound like the case from your OP.

Haven't finished reading the thread, but I wanted to answer this. My DD is 2.5, most definitely able to tell me all about her preferences, but she is not as outspoken with people she doesn't know. We're working on it, but she's not there yet.

She actually sounds a lot like the OP's kiddo. If she's climbing up a slide and someone comes up behind her, she freaks out and bails out the side rather then going down ("it's his turn! It's his turn!"), whether I'm next to her or not - luckily we were at the park with the short slide when we found that out! And yeah, even after the first time, she still panicked and did it again. It's like her brain short circuits when other kids surprise her and she has no idea what to do. I keep hoping more experience will help, but progress has been slow. So yeah, OP, I find playgrounds frustrating, too, but I'm not sure how else to get her used to being around other kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
Kids go to the park to play with kids, not thier nannies or parents.
I sit back and watch, unless there is a safety issue.


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## BetsyNY (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:

children need to learn that there are all sorts of other people in the world, all ages, sizes, etc. not just babies, but just other people. they need to learn to be respectful of all others. it doesnt matter whether they are being disrespectful to a baby, to a child their age, or to an adult. if they are acting inappropriately, then their parent should step in and tell them that it's not okay. whether they are in their own home, a park, someone elses home, at the grocery store... whatever. no one here is saying to step in when your child is doing something that they should be doing, but to step in when they are being rude or disrespectful. I don't get why doing so is considered hovering. No one is saying to watch out for the babies and everyone change their behaviours for the babies and dont act like a five year old because there's a baby. But throwing sand, grabbing toys, etc, is not okay just because they like to do that at that age. they have to learn somewhere that its not okay to do that.










There's a big difference--big--in "supervising" play to the point that you're dictating the rules of the game, making sure everyone gets an equal turn, etc--when kids play together, I absolutely agree they should be given a wide berth. I only interfere if somebody's not having fun anymore.

BUT. Parents need to supervise their kids. Older, younger, whatever.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"BUT. Parents need to supervise their kids. Older, younger, whatever."

At our parks you're allowed to go by yourself when you're 12. That's a grand five years after we were allowed to go by ourselves. Children at three (depending on the child, 2.5) and up usually form their own relationships and make their own rules themselves. I think that kids should be allowed to play alone (I mean, with supervision from afar, not necessarily close enough to hear every word) with other kids. People are always talking about what is "natural" here. Well in my opinion it's unnatural for one parent to have every waking hour available to script a child's life, and it's psychologically oppressive.

"no one here is saying to step in when your child is doing something that they should be doing, but to step in when they are being rude or disrespectful. I don't get why doing so is considered hovering."

Because controlling your child's every single action, unless it's what you already wanted them to do, is hovering. Because kids need times when they can find out the real social consequence of what is going on and life is not scripted for them. We don't learn by following instructions until we can do it perfectly. Since someone will no doubt say, "eye poked out" before I even post this reply, of course that does not include physical violence or name-calling. But sand-throwing aside (and I think that depends... if it's thrown at or up), that was not what the OP was talking about.

Again, I speak as the mother of a pre-schooler and a baby. I understand how this may not seem so incredibly important to the parents of two year olds, and that is because toddlers still do need a script in public, more so than in private. I would never look at the parent of a baby or toddler and think, "hovering".

The slide is tough. I used to forbid it with all off-use of slides, including hanging off and climbing up. Then I learned that only half the parents had that rule so it was ridiculous as it wasn't any safer. Finally we all got together and decided that the new rule had to be you can walk up it IF there is nobody at the top and nobody at the bottom.

Amazingly, the kids actually more or less implemented this. It was great seeing three and four year olds *enforce the rule themselves*.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"BUT. Parents need to supervise their kids. Older, younger, whatever."

"no one here is saying to step in when your child is doing something that they should be doing, but to step in when they are being rude or disrespectful. I don't get why doing so is considered hovering."

Because controlling your child's every single action, unless it's what you already wanted them to do, is hovering. Because kids need times when they can find out the real social consequence of what is going on and life is not scripted for them. We don't learn by following instructions until we can do it perfectly. Since someone will no doubt say, "eye poked out" before I even post this reply, of course that does not include physical violence or name-calling. But sand-throwing aside (and I think that depends... if it's thrown at or up), that was not what the OP was talking about.

.

I don't get this. It isn't "controlling your child's every single action", that is a ridiculous statement. its simply showing that some behaviours are unacceptable. if you allow bad behaviour, then that sends a message that to you, its acceptable. controlling the childs every action would be to step in at every situation and stop them from doing any and everything. but if my kid is being rude to someone, or being unfair in any way, then thats not okay with me.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"controlling the childs every action would be to step in at every situation and stop them from doing any and everything. but if my kid is being rude to someone, or being unfair in any way, then thats not okay with me."

See, in my opinion, "letting" them do whatever you would do in a situation is not freedom.

I don't remember how old your child is, but does this mean you never let them do anything that you disagree with, ever? I don't like it when my child breaks a rule but I'd much rather she find out about that rule from the other kids than from me following her and explaing that's not how to play.

I don't agree that letting kids play their own games by their own rules and enforcing them in their own way sends the message that everything they do is acceptable. There is also another message: "I'm not the police. I've told you what to do and it's your job to do it. If you aren't nice, you are going to face the consequences. Don't be surprised if later they don't want to play with you."

I don't want to be my children's one and only source of moral instruction. I know some people think the world's gone insane but I live in a community where most people and kids share my basic sense of fair play and decency and I would like my daughter to have the chance to get that from society at large as well. I think it will be much better taken.

And in fact, it has been. I notice that as she picks up rules from society, for example, taking turns (taking turns rarely comes up at home as she's the oldest of two but the second is still very small), are nearly always followed without a peep at home. When she knows it's a community rule that other kids and moms follow, she's much more likely to obey it, than when she feels it's a question of power between her and her parents.

There are things my child does that are not okay with me, but only mildly so, and that are not causing permanent or serious damage to anyone else, and I am going to let her deal with those. Likewise, when other people's kids do things that are unfair but not cruel (not taking turns on the swings, not waiting for the little ones to catch up, screaming in someone's face come to mind...) I'm not going to glare at their parents.

I wonder what all of you who think every instance of misbehavior needs to be corrected think of school or any group-care setting for older kids? Are you just opposed in principle to any situation in which children are allowed to make cultural faux-pas, act rudely, or generally not be nice without a specific consequence / instruction?


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Because, seriously, since when does everything have to be "fair"? And who decides whats "fair"?? Is it fair that you have juice boxes and my kid has water? Is it fair that I brought cookies as a special treat and you only have apples? No, not really. Its just life. It is what it is. Lifes not always "fair" and learning *THAT* is part of growing up too.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

There are many more shades of gray as to what is "fair" or "rude" as they get older. It usually boils down to a difference fo opinion rather than actual unfairness or rudeness, and that's something they have to work out on their own.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
"controlling the childs every action would be to step in at every situation and stop them from doing any and everything. but if my kid is being rude to someone, or being unfair in any way, then thats not okay with me."

See, in my opinion, "letting" them do whatever you would do in a situation is not freedom.

I don't remember how old your child is, but does this mean you never let them do anything that you disagree with, ever? I don't like it when my child breaks a rule but I'd much rather she find out about that rule from the other kids than from me following her and explaing that's not how to play.



It's not a matter of whether or not I disagree with something, so much as, is what he is doing affecting someone else in a negative way? My son is 2.5. If I let him do the things that I "disagree" with if you want to call it that, then he would be totally out of control. I don't get this whole attitude of letting them make their own decisions, when they have clearly already made the wrong decision. If my son and another child is playing together at the park, and my son grabs a toy out of the other childs hand, and that child says "hey, that's mine!" then hopefully my son will say sorry and give it back. And, I'm confident that he would. But, he didn't learn that on his own, I taught him to not grab and to say sorry when he does something wrong. And he is now at the point where he seems to understand that concept for the most part. He probably wouldn't grab in the first place. But if he didn't react that way, and give the toy back, or he responded by throwing sand in the boys direction or something, then yes I would say "no that's not your toy, that belongs to that little boy. You don't grab things from people, if he want's to share with you then he will." I think that is teaching him that you can't just do what you want when you want. Especially when he's 2.5. Likewise, if he has a toy that he doesn't feel like sharing, then I wouldn't make him share, even though I disagree with him and think he should, but its his toy and he can keep it to himself if he wants. But, if he expects others to share with him, then yes he has to share. I think there are decisions that you let a child make on their own and there are decisions that you step in and make for them. its parenting. if he made all of his own decisions then he wouldn't learn very much at all IMO. How is he supposed to know what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't?


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
There are many more shades of gray as to what is "fair" or "rude" as they get older. It usually boils down to a difference fo opinion rather than actual unfairness or rudeness, and that's something they have to work out on their own.

I think that the basic rule of thumb though that we need to teach our children is that you treat others the way you want to be treated. And I think that they only get that when they are older if you teach them that when they are younger.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

^^But it comes down to the fact that parents are not the only means of learning those social lessons; we plant the seed, but their experiences with other children are what ultimately reinforces what we've modeled for them . A toddler is more in the stage of "being kind" because we tell them to, but once they get to where they start to test those boundaries with peers, its no longer about taking turns because Mom said so, but because of the natural consequence of selfish behavior with peers. There comes a point when intervening too much may actually _hinder_ that natural learning process.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

so then, let your child do whatever they want and let them boss the other kids around and grab toys and throw sand? and then the natural consequence to that is now everyone thinks their a bully, and they are probably right.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

And, why does it have to be all about the consequence? shouldnt we have higher standards than that? rather than saying, I choose not to steal because I don't want to go to jail, isn't it better to understand that its not right to steal and that's the reason for not doing it? I would much rather my son to not have to go through some consequences if they can be avoided in the first place.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i don't think i have seen anyone here saying they would let their child toss sand hit and push others down. i keep seeing that as a reason to not let kids have space to play on their own.
kids yelling, not sharing, running, etc... that doesn't mean they are bullies.
and someone commented that people who sit back and say give them space are the ones with the naughty kids... i don't feel that is true either. my kids get all sorts of space to play. i am one of those moms sitting across the play ground while my kids play on the play structure and build in the sand and swing on the swings. do my kids misbehave... sometimes. BUT over all they are good kids and play fair and treat others well. my kids LOVE playing with others and have since they were little guys. in fact every time we would leave the park they would have a "new best friend". what i have seen more often then not are kids playing well together. some one might be having a bad day, but over all the kids play fair, watch out for the little guys, share, work together to build huge castles in the sand. i don't think the area we lived in so unusual, because we found it again across the country kids playing together, having fun, sharing and the parents giving them room to do it.
i think what is happening here is there is some sort of fear going on. like every child is a potential bully. i don't see a 3 year old not wanting to share as being a bully, i see a kid learning the ropes of life. even one throwing sand (which isn't good) is just learning cause and effect ... the effect being that maybe he/she doesn't get to play in the sand if they can't control the throwing. but still just working thru being a person around other people. it is hard to learn what is ok and what is not. 3 is young, really young. i would never think a 3 year old was a bully. seems a bit of a stretch to me.

as for the OP, maybe trying another time at the park when it is less crowded. of leave the toys at home for your own sandbox/beach days etc. if you feel most comfortable being right next to your DC then do it... BUT realize not everyone needs that same level of closeness to feel comfortable.

and not every parent sitting across the play ground is neglectful and not watching their kids. they just have a different comfort level.

h


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
so then, let your child do whatever they want and let them boss the other kids around and grab toys and throw sand? and then the natural consequence to that is now everyone thinks their a bully, and they are probably right.

Riiight, let's just go to extremes; that's always conducive to discussion. I didn't say not to correct the child, I am saying that ultimately they are going to learn from their interactions with peers. You can drive it into them over and over not to throw sand, but at some point most children are going to test those boundaries with their peers. I found that children (unlike adults) aren't so quick to label one another as "bullies" for inappropriate (but often age-expected) behavior, but often will wind up playing together once the boundaries have been established.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
And, why does it have to be all about the consequence? shouldnt we have higher standards than that? rather than saying, I choose not to steal because I don't want to go to jail, isn't it better to understand that its not right to steal and that's the reason for not doing it? I would much rather my son to not have to go through some consequences if they can be avoided in the first place.

I don't believe children necessarily have a moral/ethical drive to act appropriately; that develops over time, beginning with making a connection between an action and the consequence, which is the foundation for morals/ethics.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jugs* 
^^But it comes down to the fact that parents are not the only means of learning those social lessons; we plant the seed, but their experiences with other children are what ultimately reinforces what we've modeled for them . A toddler is more in the stage of "being kind" because we tell them to, but once they get to where they start to test those boundaries with peers, its no longer about taking turns because Mom said so, but because of the natural consequence of selfish behavior with peers. There comes a point when intervening too much may actually _hinder_ that natural learning process.

i like this. this is very true. it isn't until they put those lessons into action that we can even say they have learned them. it is when they test the waters (so to speak) maybe push a boundary that they see what people will tolerate.

in our old HS group the boys would wrestle alot. somewhere along the way they had a set of "rules" about what was expectable wrestling and what was not. and they followed them the kids who could not who were more aggressive would be left out. and they all learned what was ok and what wasn't. we moms (cuz it was mostly moms) sat back and watched. it was pretty amazing. i am sure to some it would have felt very "lord of the flies" but the kids knew the rules and no one would get hurt and they got their crazies out. eventually they moved on to something else. but it was neat watching them find that set of rules/boundaries and how everyone followed them.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jugs* 
Riiight, let's just go to extremes; that's always conducive to discussion. I didn't say not to correct the child, I am saying that ultimately they are going to learn from their interactions with peers. You can drive it into them over and over not to throw sand, but at some point most children are going to test those boundaries with their peers. I found that children (unlike adults) aren't so quick to label one another as "bullies" for inappropriate (but often age-expected) behavior, but often will wind up playing together once the boundaries have been established.

I don't believe children necessarily have a moral/ethical drive to act appropriately; that develops over time, beginning with making a connection between an action and the consequence, which is the foundation for morals/ethics.

You sound like you are in fact saying not to correct the child. that its more beneficial for them to learn from a consequence rather than from a parent. I don't believe that morals and ethics are founded upon making connection to consequence. and I think that lots of young children have a moral drive. they understand that certain things hurt others, and they, or at least mine and many others I have come across seem to genuinely not want to affect anyone else negatively. In fact, I believe they have a concern for others most times. If my son is in one room and hears a noise from the room that I am in he will yell out "mommy, are you okay?" if he has a treat and another child he is playing with doesn't, he will say "here you have some" If he accidentally runs into someone on the playground, he will say "im sorry excuse me" and not because he gets a time out or something if he doesn't, he is naturally concerned for others. and no, young children arent purposefully bullying anyone, because yes these are age appropriate behaviours. but the point is that whoever is the brunt of some of these behaviours is still going to feel bullied in a lot of cases, whether or not the behaviour was really intentional. it is true that children need to establish boundaries and will play together nicely once those are established, but why not help them to establish the boundaries so that the confrontation doesnt last longer than it has to? if it can be diffused by simply saying "that's not nice, that toy belongs to him" and then the child gives back the toy and they continue playing and the problem is solved? how can that be bad? the kid gets his toy, the other kid learns not to grab, and they stay friendly.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

I have *never* said not to correct the child, I have said that all of parental intervention in the world will not replace the the lessons children learn from each other; ie. at some point _our_ correcting them will be replaced by their _peers_ teaching them that they won't tolerate XYZ behavior. That experience reinforces what we'd been teaching them... and sometimes we can teach them until we're blue in the face, yet it takes an upset peer to drive the lesson home.

ETA: parental supervision is important, especially with the littlest ones, but this idea that we'll achieve playground harmony if parents jump in at every skirmish just stymies me. If someone throws sand at my kid and my kid says "Stop throwing sand at me" and the child stops, why is it necessary for me or the other parent to step in if the situation has been rectified? A situation where the child doesn't stop throwing sand or the other doesn't stand up for himself, that's a whole other ball of wax which calls for adult intervention.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

For one thing, as kids get older they don't always believe you when you say other kids won't like them doing something, and they test to see if other kids actually respond that way. But also, their real world interactions just generally back up what we've talked about. They have to have real word interactions to really internalize lessons IMO. It isn't about consequences to me, it's about allowing my kids to grow up by actually interacting with people, because telling them about things only does so much. Would I get involved if I saw sand getting thrown or someone getting bullied, excluded, hit, etc? Yes, even at 8. But I don't get involved in most interactions. Most things kids are able to work through between them, and I don't think parents help. I think in fact parents can complicate things. I've seen kids pretty well resolve an issue where everyone was happy, and then a parent comes and imposes a different plan, and the kids feel wronged because they were working through things and happy with where things were going.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Wow. I love the playground. My kids enjoy the space, the exercise, and they meet other kids and play. Its fun!
Most of the time, im sitting on a bench ,reading and drinking coffee. I keep a constant eye on them though, and intervene when necessary. If something looks difficult, I come over and listen carefully, and see if it needs attention. If not, I go back to my magazine. Im very hands off. I learned this from my older son who didn't want to play with me









But im wathcing them all the time. And I enjoy it. I enjoy wathcing them interact etc, and I enjoy the challenge of dealing with some of the complexities.

If something happens, that I feel requires adult intervention, and the caregiver is nowhere to be seen, I ask the child-who is your nanny/mommy, and go over and explain to that person what is going on.

To the OP, just do that. Just go and tell them.

As for nannies and mommies and who sits where. Well, as a mommy, I sit where noone will talk to me, because I want to read my mag. Well, mainly i try to sit as close to kids as possible. I dont go the playground for conversation (unless I meet someone there deliberately). Im friendly though, but am focussing on kids/ and my mag.

As for sharing, I always ask ds if he is ok with sharing with such and such, and if he isnt, well he isnt.
Often I bring spare toys to offer other kids, because it creates a nice atmosphere, and models sharing to my kids. They also get to trade this way.
I can still go back to reading my mag after that.
Also, my kids are daring, and I am less hands on than many, so I often get the 'your child is doing this&#8230;'
And I say 'thankyou'. (im thanking them for there good intentions)
My youngest likes to take off his pants, I have no problem with this (most of the time) Ive had the nanny or two frown at me. Ive had people come up and tell me 'your baby has no pants on' and I look like I don't know. But I do.
Im watching.

To the OP, just go over to the caregivers and tell them if something is bothering you.

maya


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I was thinking about this thread on the weekend.

We went to a park we don't get to that often and there was a boy who was about 6 who had created quite an elaborate world in one end of the sandbox with about 2/3 the community toys this park happens to have at the playground and he was being quite bossy about it. He also had a helium balloon with a weight on it that all the other kids wanted and that he was investing a fair amount of time in guarding. He had a whole narrative going about it too, that it was a magic spell only the wizard could control. It wasn't especially subtle, he was waving it around saying how great it was but only he could make the magic.

He had pretty clearly spent a lot of time setting it up, but he was where there were about 7 younger kids in the sandbox with him who were all eyeing the toys that were a part of his 'castle.' I was keeping an eye on how it would all turn out.

My son and another couple of kids LOVED it. They were his willing slaves to follow his game, despite the fact that his game was mostly about keeping them out and about the older boy's superior err...magic powers (and the older boy, although creative about it, wasn't giving much quarter). Another boy did burst into tears about the balloon and was redirected over to the swings. No sand was thrown though.









In this case I personally felt that in the adult world, the game was pretty inappropriate. In most preschools, for example, I have a feeling there would be some kind of "lesson" involved in not hogging the magical powers.

But in the kid world, it was shaking out reasonably well. It was interesting to watch especially after following this thread. The older boy's play was not only at a pretty different level creatively (although my son could keep up, the other kids' ages went down to about) but it was quite a bit about power and in some ways archetypal power - the power-hungry wizard. I don't think the older boy needed a lesson in sharing - I think he was having a big lesson in enacting his imagination.

Towards the end the other kids did rush in and wreck some of the world he had built but the balloon and his magic powers were intact. Then his parents said he had to go and he shouted at the playground "You're all invited to my house next time!"

I dunno...sometimes I think we parents see what we want to see. Me too, and what I saw was pretty amazing.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I was thinking about this thread on the weekend.

We went to a park we don't get to that often and there was a boy who was about 6 who had created quite an elaborate world in one end of the sandbox with about 2/3 the community toys this park happens to have at the playground and he was being quite bossy about it. He also had a helium balloon with a weight on it that all the other kids wanted and that he was investing a fair amount of time in guarding. He had a whole narrative going about it too, that it was a magic spell only the wizard could control. It wasn't especially subtle, he was waving it around saying how great it was but only he could make the magic.

He had pretty clearly spent a lot of time setting it up, but he was where there were about 7 younger kids in the sandbox with him who were all eyeing the toys that were a part of his 'castle.' I was keeping an eye on how it would all turn out.

My son and another couple of kids LOVED it. They were his willing slaves to follow his game, despite the fact that his game was mostly about keeping them out and about the older boy's superior err...magic powers (and the older boy, although creative about it, wasn't giving much quarter). Another boy did burst into tears about the balloon and was redirected over to the swings. No sand was thrown though.









In this case I personally felt that in the adult world, the game was pretty inappropriate. In most preschools, for example, I have a feeling there would be some kind of "lesson" involved in not hogging the magical powers.

But in the kid world, it was shaking out reasonably well. It was interesting to watch especially after following this thread. The older boy's play was not only at a pretty different level creatively (although my son could keep up, the other kids' ages went down to about) but it was quite a bit about power and in some ways archetypal power - the power-hungry wizard. I don't think the older boy needed a lesson in sharing - I think he was having a big lesson in enacting his imagination.

Towards the end the other kids did rush in and wreck some of the world he had built but the balloon and his magic powers were intact. Then his parents said he had to go and he shouted at the playground "You're all invited to my house next time!"

I dunno...sometimes I think we parents see what we want to see. Me too, and what I saw was pretty amazing.









meh, now see to me, that's not necessarily a case that I would be stepping in, especially if he a) had picked up and started playing with the toys first, and chose not to share them, and b) was including other children in his game who seemed to be enjoying themselves.

I guess what it all boils down to is that the "hoverers" in this thread are not talking about hovering constantly over their kids shoulders and directing every action that is going on, but moreso stepping in when they feel that their child is being out of line, although they seem to be being accused of the first scenario. And the parents that they are complaining about are not necessarily the ones that are sitting on a bench reading a magazine while their child plays nicely with other children, they are complaining about the parents that see (or dont see because they arent paying attention) that their child is bothering someone in some way that they shouldnt be, and refusing to step in and correct them. I think that both sides probably just want a balance in the end.

I must say that scenario sounds pretty interesting to watch too though! what an imagination.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gcgirl* 
Funny. I just read an article about bullying which specified that it's a cultural myth that standing up to bullies stops the bullying. In fact, it's more likely to make the bullying worse. What DOES work, according to the people who study the phenomenon, is a culture that does not tolerate bullying, and critically, ADULT INTERVENTION.

Actually, peer intervention was found to be even more effective. The best bully prevention is to teach kids to speak up when another kid's in trouble. Of course, that's for real bullying that's at a different level than playground aggression. On the playground, it's fine if the behavior is only stopped when the kid feels like there's supervision.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

"I don't get this whole attitude of letting them make their own decisions, when they have clearly already made the wrong decision."

"How is he supposed to know what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't?"
I think this probably has more to do with the difference in our children's ages than anything else. As your son grows older, you will begin to see the necessity of letting him make bad decisions and live with the consequences.

Right now, your son is still half-baby, 1/4 toddler, and perhaps 1/4 kid (if he's really mature for his age).

I am speaking as the parent of a 1/4 baby, 1/4 toddler, and 1/2 kid. (She's three and a half.)







Kids need to make mistakes to learn. That includes social and moral mistakes.

And once again, this of course does not extend to physical violence or badgering.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think this probably has more to do with the difference in our children's ages than anything else. As your son grows older, you will begin to see the necessity of letting him make bad decisions and live with the consequences.

Right now, your son is still half-baby, 1/4 toddler, and perhaps 1/4 kid (if he's really mature for his age).

I am speaking as the parent of a 1/4 baby, 1/4 toddler, and 1/2 kid. (She's three and a half.)







Kids need to make mistakes to learn. That includes social and moral mistakes.

And once again, this of course does not extend to physical violence or badgering.

And I do agree with that, although I suppose its a matter of opinion to the adult what is considered badgering or inappropriate. I think that when the mistakes have to be at someone elses expense its not really okay


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I think it is important to remember that every social interaction amongst very young children that is not ideal is not equal to character flaws. They are all learning how to do a million things each day - if your kid happens to cross paths at the park with a kid who is having a tough day, it is a learning opportunity.

We recently moved and my older boys (now 10 & 6) have made the transition really well - I look back on all of the relationships with neighbors from our old house and I think that a handful of kids who they struggled to get along with prepared them socially as much as some of the kids who were easier fits.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Good thread! At 4 and under, I would say I was probably a helicopter parent when it came to safety issues. Not so much hitting or throwing sand. I don't really consider that a safety issue. Anything that would break a bone or fracture a skull...THAT'S a safety issue. Someone mentioned letting their 2 yr old climb a 8 foot wall by themselves. That would make me crazy. If I was at the park with your child doing that, I would be spotting them if you weren't. Sorry if that would offend you.

For the OP, I think we all have days at the park that there are kids that are driving us nuts. On those days, I just leave. If this is happening every time you go there, you may want to re-evaluate your own feelings and behavior. I felt there was quite a bit of judgement in your first post. If that's the "rut" you're mind is stuck in when you go to the park, I can see why it's so stressful! Is there another mom you can go to the park with that has a similar parenting style? Maybe having a few happy days there will improve your outlook on the place?


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Hmmm, I think that many of you believe kids to be much more altruistic than they actually are. Granted my kid is still a baby, but my memories of childhood are firmly shaped by the fact I was an outsider who was constantly punished by the group mentality of the insiders. Punished simply for being alive. No adults ever intervened. Yes, this taught me quite the lesson about life not being fair, but it also taught me that kids cannot always work it out by themselves in ways that are appropriate to all involved. One kid in pain is one too many. Especially when its the same kid over and over again.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Chamomile, I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the alienation you are talking about is impossible for a pre-schooler to inflict on another pre-schooler. If we are talking older children, yes I see how that can cause lasting damage. I'm willing to bet that the experiences you had were not just limited to your pre-school years.

As to whether this of type hands-off parenting CAUSES children to grow into 'bullies', I don't think that is the case. Just because a parent chooses to not intervene in a sandbox situation doesn't mean they don't use other methods to teach their children about how to treat people. Maybe they go over things at the end of the day with their child, and ask how they could have better dealt with the situation. We don't know. Who's to say whether that method doesn't teach the child more than the method of jumping in and taking over the situation when it's heated?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"I think that the alienation you are talking about is impossible for a pre-schooler to inflict on another pre-schooler."

I think it's just tough for sensitive people in general. My mother has stories of alienation going back to her first memories. To sum up these memories: "They didn't understand me, they didn't listen to me, they weren't gentle with me, I felt sad and alone."

This is how she felt when she was sent to kindergarten by her parents. It is how she felt when her brother teased her. It is how she felt when her friends made a club and did not explicitely invite her (she found out later that everyone else assumed they were invited







and so it wasn't personal). She always kind of felt hurt. She still does, LOL. We literally have to say to her, "Mom, I am telling you X. That does not mean I'm upset at you. I just have to tell you because Y. I love you." Otherwise, drama.

I don't dare imagine what she must have been like at four on the playground.

Sensitive children can be targets for bullying. I understand that. Just because they are sensitive does not make any individual hurt they suffer less important. It is important for a parent to recognize the sensitivity of her child and help the child deal with it.

It is NOT the responsibility of that parent to make sure all the other parents are making sure their kids are tiptoeing around that child, literally or figuratively.

I disagree that "One kid in pain is one too many." Pain and hurt are part of life. Disappointment is a part of life. Learning to deal with that is also a part of life.

I can see that right now you have a precious little baby, not even one year. Of course she's much too young to be learning her knocks the hard way. She's all squishy and vulnerable and small. The only thing she needs is kisses on her big fat cheeks.

But no matter what you do, as she grows, she will get knocked around at some point. (Chubby cheeks likely having faded... ) It is just inevitable and it's not our job as parents to protect them from that. From the worst hurts, we can provide a buffer. But if she is rejected, we cannot ask others to accept her. You know?

And my point of view is not based on an optimistic view of children. I know they aren't nice. I want to slowly introduce my child to the vagaries of playground and peer-group antics slowly, so that she slowly but surely develops the skills she needs to take care of herself as she goes into school, high-school, college, and so on. And that means stepping back.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Your mother too, Edna? I got one of those! lol

What I meant is the fact that a 4 year old will sometimes be mean, bossy, etc. to another 4 yr. old will not cause the alienation that Chamomile feels. Unless, as you say, the child is super sensitive in which case I agree with you that it's not the world's place to adapt but the child's.

I think the simple question is... should we intervene everytime our child is misbehaving right at the second it occurs? Some people feel they should jump in at the moment and some feel that it's not necessary. I don't think either philosophy is wrong. All that really matters is whether or not the kid learns to interact socially in the long run.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
Your mother too, Edna? I got one of those! lol

What I meant is the fact that a 4 year old will sometimes be mean, bossy, etc. to another 4 yr. old will not cause the alienation that Chamomile feels. Unless, as you say, the child is super sensitive in which case I agree with you that it's not the world's place to adapt but the child's.

I think the simple question is... should we intervene everytime our child is misbehaving right at the second it occurs? Some people feel they should jump in at the moment and some feel that it's not necessary. I don't think either philosophy is wrong. All that really matters is whether or not the kid learns to interact socially in the long run.

I think though that what also matters is that another child doesn't get hurt unnecessarily by my child. And this doesnt mean stepping in at the very moment that misbehaviour occurs, but at the moment where the situation has not been resolved in a way that is fair for everyone. obviously not every situation is fair for everyone but if it can be than its probably better that it is. I certainly give my son the chance to work things out, but if I see that he's not doing that, or that another child is going to just give in when they should stand their ground, then I will step in and make sure that doesn't happen. Because, if the other child has a very passive attitude, and doesnt want to stand up for themselves, I would still want my son to understand why the situation isn't fair. I don't want someone to have to stick up for themselves in order for him to know what he should or shouldn't do.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

^^I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I would probably do the same thing if I was in earshot. But I'm not sitting in earshot waiting for that to happen either.

And I also don't expect other parents' to do that...jump in and make things "fair" I mean. It's just not going to happen. But instead of assuming that those parents' are crappy and are on their way to raising a little serial killer I'd rather assume that they are aware of what their child needs to be taught and are trying the best they can.

And I don't think it's a problem if a mom goes to the park knowing that she's going to be hovering around the action while the other mom's sit back a little. It's the expectation that the other mom's will do what she's doing that's the problem. That's why OP's experience is so negative, I think. If she would just accept that she hovers and others don't, she may have a better time. Like I said above, with the 2 year old on the wall, I WOULD be hovering. I don't think I'd be bitter about it. I'm pretty Pollyanna about things though.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
Chamomile, I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the alienation you are talking about is impossible for a pre-schooler to inflict on another pre-schooler. If we are talking older children, yes I see how that can cause lasting damage. I'm willing to bet that the experiences you had were not just limited to your pre-school years.

That's been my observation as well. Ds is autistic, so being teased/targeted is pretty much routine by now. However, it has _never once_ been a fellow preschooler that has teased him, only older kids. But on the flip side, older kids have been more likely to include him in their games and be more patient with his behaviors... I guess because he's not their peer, they see him more as a "little kid" than as a _weird_ kid.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

And I think that I would be more vigilant if my 4 year old were playing with older kids. But if my kid were sitting in a sandbox (metaphorically because public sandbox = ew!) with kids around his own age I wouldn't feel the need to sit close enough to hear everything they are saying to each other.

I think the conflict here is whether or not we should expect other parent's to have the same level of supervision as we are personally comfortable with. Should the mother of a 9 yr old become involved or become more vigilant if she starts to play with a 4 year old? I don't think so, but as the parent of the 4 year old I would move closer to see what was up. And I could do so without feeling resentment at the parent of the older child.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

The aggressive or bully kids I have seen didn't have bench sitter parents/caregivers most of the time. They had bully parents who were meanwhile telling some other parent what to do, or on their phone telling someone else what to do, loudly.

And bully kids are usually much older than the toddlers they bully, and they usually run in packs, often from camp groups and such in my experience. I don't think leaving a lone 3 year old to "work it out" with 24 8 year olds is ever a good idea. 2 3 year olds, sure. 2 8 year olds, sure. A 3 and an 8... I'd probably be within earshot throughout.


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## Jugs (Mar 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
And I think that I would be more vigilant if my 4 year old were playing with older kids. But if my kid were sitting in a sandbox (metaphorically because public sandbox = ew!) with kids around his own age I wouldn't feel the need to sit close enough to hear everything they are saying to each other.

Oh of course, I wouldn't just leave him to his own devices with a group of kids of _any_ age (unless we knew them well, of course) because he can't tell the difference between someone playing with him and someone bullying him, or just angry with him. I do back off and let him have some space, but I'm keeping an eye on the other kids' body language and facial expressions to be sure everything is going okay. Ironically, its my 2-year-old that's as happy as a clam and needs nothing more than a glance now and then.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"I'd probably be within earshot throughout."

I think that nearly every parent in this thread claims to approve of being within earshot throughout for children of almost any age. Nobody is suggesting that we turn our backs and ears on children at the park, simply that we not intervene unless physical harm or bullying is happening / imminent.

"I think the conflict here is whether or not we should expect other parent's to have the same level of supervision as we are personally comfortable with."

Yep.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BarnMomma* 
5 minutes after we're there 3 other children show up. One girl brings her own batch of sand toys, and two others just dive right in and take DS's toys. All nannys go sit on the nanny bench on the opposite end of the playground. Within minutes the kids are grabbing toys out of DS's hands and refusing to share, one is throwing sand, the other is getting territorial about hole she's digging and is screaming at anyone who comes within her vicinity. Ds is sort of getting the brunt of all of this. What choice do I have but to constantly remind the kids not to throw sand, to share, and to take turns, and to speak nicely to each other? And at the same time encourage my own son to NOT let the kids snatch toys from his hands while at the same time encouraging him to share? Meanwhile the other kids won't share the things they brought with them and pile them up and block them from anyone who tries to go near them. So then I feel like well fine, why should my DS have to share if that's how it's going to be? It's like...my head is spinning...and then I'm looking around for SOMEONE to back me up or step in and all I see are nannys or moms having a good old time yucking it up on the other end of the park.

That situation would have frustrated me too. I don't micromanage, but I also don't buy into the whole philosophy that kid should just be left to their own devices and only need parental intervention when there is blood spilled or about to be. I'm somewhere in the middle, so that's where I'm coming from. I think the snatching, sand throwing, and possibly even the screaming might have needed addressing.

Anyway, the reality is there isn't much you can do to change these other caregivers. They're gonna keep doing their thing, and that's fair enough. For that reason, I've found that for us public playgrounds with random kids and caregivers isn't the best place to start learning social skills. As a matter of fact, when my oldest was about your son's age or maybe a little older, we for the most part stopped going to the park unless we were going to our small quiet neighborhood park to meet kids we planned a playdate with. The random playground pandemonium just got to be too much for me after two separate incidents that involved my child getting deliberately pushed off a play structure one time falling from about 4+ feet landing flat on her back and one time involving an injury. In neither case did a caregiver respond or was anywhere to be seen best I could tell. The kid that caused the injury was about 3, and yes he was a bully. I would not have believed that possible unless I saw it with my own eyes. He was running with a group of other kids, and I kid you not they were like a pack of wild dogs. Anyways, I digress.

My point being, maybe try to find a group of other folks to meet up at the park or your house or whatever. It doesn't matter so much if you agree completely on everything. There is a mom in our playgroup that's a big micromanger, and it kind of drives me a bit batty. But at least we know everyone, and know what to expect, and I think that creates a much better atmosphere, at least in the early years. People feel more accountable. I'm sure when my kids are older, we can branch out and I will ease up, but for now this works really well for us.

Good luck!


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buttercup784ever* 
^^I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I would probably do the same thing if I was in earshot. But I'm not sitting in earshot waiting for that to happen either.

And I also don't expect other parents' to do that...jump in and make things "fair" I mean. It's just not going to happen. But instead of assuming that those parents' are crappy and are on their way to raising a little serial killer I'd rather assume that they are aware of what their child needs to be taught and are trying the best they can.

And I don't think it's a problem if a mom goes to the park knowing that she's going to be hovering around the action while the other mom's sit back a little. It's the expectation that the other mom's will do what she's doing that's the problem. That's why OP's experience is so negative, I think. If she would just accept that she hovers and others don't, she may have a better time. Like I said above, with the 2 year old on the wall, I WOULD be hovering. I don't think I'd be bitter about it. I'm pretty Pollyanna about things though.

That's a good point.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

wow! this is a fascinating thread! My ds is 8 months old, and I guess our trips to the park are going to get a lot more complicated in the coming years.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *texmati* 
wow! this is a fascinating thread! My ds is 8 months old, and I guess our trips to the park are going to get a lot more complicated in the coming years.

Maybe not...I am reading things here that we just never see at our park. We go to several in our town and usually go to 1-2 when we're camping. While I've seen the occasional problem, I haven't witnessed anything near what people here are mentioning. The park isn't at all stressful or complicated for our family.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I didn't get to read all the responses (this thread got HUGE quickly!) but I sympathize with the OP. My son is the exact same way, and is small for his age, so even kids who are 6 months younger than he is tower over him and snatch things away from him.

However, I don't hover. I let him work it out himself. He's mostly unfazed by the pushing and grabbing. When he's not, he comes to me, and I tell him if he doesn't like what someone is doing, to tell them "no." We DO NOT take any toys with us. The few times he has insisted on bringing something along, he has agreed to leave it with me so it doesn't get lost. I explain that anything he brings out of the house could get lost, and anything at the park he should expect to share. I do make sure that he's not the one grabbing others' toys and refusing to share them, and sand-throwing isn't allowed. (I don't want him to be the one to get sand in a baby's eyes or to hurt another kid by accident.)

Beyond that, he's on his own unless he asks me for help, which he does when he feels he needs to. It wasn't easy for me to do this at first. I'm VERY protective of my boy and I cringe when I see other kids pushing and being rude to him. But after leaving the park all tense and upset a few times I realized I only had two choices: Never go to the park or let it go and realize that kids come in all different personalities, manners, and levels of parental supervision and he'll have to deal with that in school eventually, so why not start now?


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