# What Would You Do If You Knew A Parent Was Not Using A Car Seat?



## bass chick (Sep 7, 2005)

I take care of several children in my home during the week. Three of the families all are friend/neighbors, and their kids are all 2 years old.

On occassion one of the parents will come and pick up all 3 children. I have witnessed them putting a 2 year old into a booster seat that is designed for a child who is over 40 lbs (they are all 2....and under 30lbs). I have seen them put a child just on the seat with seatbelt, and I have seen them put a child in the front seat with just a seatbelt. I have also seen them put their kids into the proper car seats but one of the car seats has expired. I know this because I borrowed it one day to take the kids on an outing.

They only have a few blocks to drive to go home, but I also know that accidents can happen anywhere and often happen just a few blocks from home. The parents also may be thinking they are safe because they are in a big truck (they all drive 1/2 - 3/4 tonne trucks).

I'm not sure how to approach this issue or if I even should. I don't believe they are putting their child "at risk" anymore than any other parent who drives with their child, but I do recognize that they are at an "increased risk" than a child who is fastened correctly in a car seat (and I also recognize that the majority of people don't have their car seats installed correctly, nor do they strap their kids in correctly). I'm also a pretty firm believer that parents need to be responsible for their children and having the government step in with all kinds of rules and regulations is just taking responsibility from people and making people generally more irresponsible because we are increasingly expecting organizations and governments and institutions to protect us and make our decisions. (rant rant rant). We all grew up crawling around our parents station wagons and doing sommersaults in the back seat while they were driving. My brother even had a "car seat" that they used to refer to as a "suicide bucket".

Anyways, I'm just wondering how others feel and what you would do in my situation. I really hate confrontation and don't want to be telling these parents how to be a parent. Their children are loved deeply, the parents are very affluent and I'm not worried about neglect or abuse.

Oh yeah...I'm in Canada if that makes a difference.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Call 911. Report it, including their licence plate number and full description. Every time you see it.

I would also not let a child leave my house without a proper carseat, I'd just say "they can stay here until you go get one"


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> Call 911. Report it, including their licence plate number and full description. Every time you see it.
> 
> I would also not let a child leave my house without a proper carseat, I'd just say "they can stay here until you go get one"


Yikes, harsh.

I wouldn't call the police. They are, after all, their children and not yours and it is for the parents to decide what to do with them. I would hope and pray they were pulled over and would bring it up over and over again. I understand that you are probably dependent on the income from watching them so being rude or calling the police is not an option. You also can't hold their kids hostage until they get a car seat. They could easily call the police on you can claim they were going to walk the kids home and have you arrested for kidnapping (I know that it sounds extreme but that's what I would do if someone was not allowing my kids to leave with me).

I would continue to bring it up and offer to help them pick a proper seat, if they're well off they shouldn't be concerned about the money.


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## CrunchyChristianMama (Dec 5, 2008)

I would maybe find a casual way to ask them if they only do that kind of behavior when driving the few blocks home, or if that's how they usually ride. If it's just a couple blocks every now and then, eh. I wouldn't worry about it. If they generally don't seem to understand car seat safety, I might print some things off for them to read and let them know that you are concerned.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

The OP said that on occasion, one parent will pick up all 3 kids. Meaning, NOT their kids. I don't think I would let another parent take a child who was not theirs out of my care without a proper car seat. I might send them to wal mart to pick up a scenera, or let them borrow a seat of mine, but no, I will not send Parent A's child with Parent B without a car seat.

ETA: Since its just a few blocks, I'd offer to walk the kids home.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Yikes, harsh.
> 
> I wouldn't call the police. They are, after all, their children and not yours and it is for the parents to decide what to do with them


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Affluent should mean that they have more time available to use the educations they should also have had available to them to learn about keeping kids safe.

It really is a pity that you've set a precedent of allowing this, but perhaps there is a law about child care providers and proper car seat use that you could pull out to use as a reason for changing your policy to only allow proper carseats?

Call up all the parents and announce it as a new thing, sorry for any inconvenience, feel free to leave your child's seat here if another family will be doing the pick-up?


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I was thinking about this more. Could you bring it up as a sort of 'I just so happened to see this thing on car seats and I thought you might be interested too, they said.....'. If the parents know another family is driving their child around without a car seat you can't really do anything about it. You could, however, ask if they know so and so doesn't have a proper car seat for their child.

If you will be driving one of the kids around you can say what the law is and that you are not able to take the risk involved with an expired carseat or lack of a carseat.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LiLStar*
> 
> The OP said that on occasion, one parent will pick up all 3 kids. Meaning, NOT their kids. I don't think I would let another parent take a child who was not theirs out of my care without a proper car seat. I might send them to wal mart to pick up a scenera, or let them borrow a seat of mine, but no, I will not send Parent A's child with Parent B without a car seat.
> 
> ETA: Since its just a few blocks, I'd offer to walk the kids home.


You would demand an adult who is not the parent of a child they are picking up and driving a couple blocks with go and buy a carseat? Not that I would drive anywhere with a child in the car who was not properly restrained but in that situation I would grab the kid, walk out, and promptly remove my child from that person's care. If a parent deems another adult to be a proper caregiver for the drive home the daycare provider can't deem that person unqualified.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Yes, I would demand they buy a seat. Or they could make arrangements with the child's parents to get the seat before they go pick up the child. It's not acceptable for a child to ride without a seat, even if it's only a "couple of blocks".


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## asraidevin (Jul 30, 2010)

I would get a car seat brochure from your local public health and mention it casually that you've been reading up on how dangerous it is etc., that you didn't know before and offer the brochure or say you got one for all the kids and it's in their bag or something. If they know you've noticed, they might be inclined to change.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Right. If its "only a couple of blocks" then I see no reason why they shouldn't walk.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> Yes, I would demand they buy a seat. Or they could make arrangements with the child's parents to get the seat before they go pick up the child. It's not acceptable for a child to ride without a seat, even if it's only a "couple of blocks".


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Ah, yes good point. Walking would definitely be the best option.


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## urbangoddess2 (Feb 17, 2011)

Law concerning child seats in Canada:

Children under the age of eight, who weigh 18 kg or more but less than 36 kg (40-80 lbs.), and who stand less than 145 cm (57 ins. or 4 ft. 9 ins.) must travel in a booster seat that meets the CMVSS.

A child can start using a seatbelt alone once any one of the following criteria is met:


Child turns eight years old
Child weighs 36 kg (80 lbs.)
Child is 145 cm (57 ins. or 4 ft. 9 ins.) tall

Children may ride front facing in the front seat when they are 9kg (20 lbs.).

Drivers who fail to secure or who improperly secure children may be charged, and if convicted, will be fined $110.00 and have two demerit points applied to their driving record.

What I would do is inform the parents that it is against the law. If they don't change the situation, tell them you will phone the police. If they still don't change it, then phone the non-emergency line and report the license plate. You shouldn't keep the child, even if that person is picking up the child for someone else (unlawful confinement, kidnapping comes to mind)


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

car seat laws vary province to province in canada. This chart is a few years old, I'm not sure how up to date it is, but it show the differences

http://www.safekidscanada.ca/Professionals/Advocacy/Documents/26794-BoosterSeatLegislationChart.pdf

If it really bothers you that much, you could say that the police were doing spot checks on your closest major street earlier that day, so they might want to get a few extra seats.

What I would NOT do is refuse to hand over parent A's child to parent B when parent A has arranged parent B to take that child home. If someone tried to keep my child because of a safety issue that I clearly felt different than they did, and occurs outside of the time my child is with the car provider I would be livid. You are responsible for those children in your home, but once they are picked up it is out of your hands , it is not your responsibility anymore so than if they were to put their child in the car with no carseat on a day they didnt 'even come to your house.


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## asraidevin (Jul 30, 2010)

I'dmention the lack of seats to the other families. Maybe they didn't know about lack of proper seating.


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## terese17 (Dec 5, 2006)

I saw my sister's neighbor putting an infant car seat in the car with the baby in it forward facing. I knew they were foster parents, and one of my friends is a social worker for DHS. I called her and asked what to do. She told me that they had been kicked off the foster parent list, so she couldn't really do anything unless I had seen him actually abusing the child. He also had been having a lot of police called to the neighborhood lately because of violent confrontations with other neighbors, so its not like I was going to go say anything to him. We ended up not doing anything. And I felt horrible about it.

At the preschool where my 3 yr old goes they will not let anyone, parent or otherwise, take a child with being in a proper car seat. Its just one of their rules. I would institute a rule like that.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

If the parents want to make it a kidnapping case for the person they have paid to watch their child to refuse to let their child go into an unsafe (according to the law) situation, then they can call the police. Of course, odds are they'd have to come to the OP's home to meet with the police at which point an appropriate carseat is present.

I'd make a blanket policy about not handing children over without safe and appropriate (according to the law, which I know isn't nearly as safe as it should be, but it's what you have to work with) child seats. This would also include stuff like not allowing kids to go with anyone who seems intoxicated, someone you don't recognize, even things like parent C picking up kid A when you were told parent B would do it (although for that last one, a phone call would sort it out).


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asraidevin*
> 
> I would get a car seat brochure from your local public health and mention it casually that you've been reading up on how dangerous it is etc., that you didn't know before and offer the brochure or say you got one for all the kids and it's in their bag or something. If they know you've noticed, they might be inclined to change.


I was thinking this...why not do a "safety day" for the kids (yes, I know they're 2...but you can cover things like not touching the stove or outlets.) and hand out "safety brochures" on a variety of topics.


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## Spring Lily (Sep 26, 2006)

I don't know the laws in Canada, but in the US providing daycare would make you a mandated reporter. Which could make you liable if anything happened to those kids, because you knowingly let them leave your house unsafely AND didn't report the situation.

Like the others have said, I'd institute a new rule. Let the parents know in writing what the car safety standards are in your province and that you are obligated as the care provider to follow those standards. That you can't release kids to a parent who isn't following those standards. Blame it on the liability aspect and that you just discovered this, so it doesn't sound like you're blaming or judging anyone. You can also include some info about car seat expiration dates and info on where to get the installation checked in your area, just as a related bit of helpful info.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Yikes, harsh.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is harsh, but I've called the police before when I've seen unrestrained children. In some areas, there is even a 'hotline' for reporting it. They are doing something illegal, and not only illegal but putting a child's life at risk (and maybe not even their own child!). Even though its not my kid, if its a kid I was caring for and leaving MY house then I feel some responsibility. And even if it was a random person in a random car I saw somewhere, its still not the CHILD's choice to be unsafe, its the parent making the stupid choice and they should be punished for it. Just because its their kid doesnt mean they have the right to break the law and risk killing the child because they are too lazy to walk or get a proper carseat.

When I was a nanny when ds was little I always had to fix the little girl's carseat, the straps were always falling off of her. I fixed it pretty much every day for months before they got the picture, but eventually they realized that they needed to keep things tight to keep her safe.

When my son's friends come over, I do peek at their carseats, and I have asked parents to make an adjustment here and there if it was something risky (like a FF seat installed with the RF belt path for a 15month old, she was happy to go ahead and re-rearface him and has left it correctly installed RF sense then). I've made it pretty clear that Im a carseat nerd and their child WILL leave my house in a safe carseat. Thats just how I am.


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## SeattleRain (Mar 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *leighi123*
> 
> Maybe it is harsh, but I've called the police before when I've seen unrestrained children. In some areas, there is even a 'hotline' for reporting it. They are doing something illegal, and not only illegal but putting a child's life at risk (and maybe not even their own child!). Even though its not my kid, if its a kid I was caring for and leaving MY house then I feel some responsibility. And even if it was a random person in a random car I saw somewhere, its still not the CHILD's choice to be unsafe, its the parent making the stupid choice and they should be punished for it. Just because its their kid doesnt mean they have the right to break the law and risk killing the child because they are too lazy to walk or get a proper carseat.
> 
> ...


While I love carseat safety as much as the next mama, I think calling the police is a little extreme. Particularly when you have the option of speaking to the parents first and trying to change their habits without police interference. Just like I wouldn't let a friend get in the car drunk and then call the police (as opposed to first saying "hey I think you've had too many can I drive you home?"), I wouldn't just say nothing and call the police. I might call the police if I saw someone on the highway with a baby on their lap or unrestrained, but I definitely wouldn't say something to a friend. People are just too uninformed about carseats to expect total compliance without educating them first. A friend of mine had no idea that you couldn't just turn the baby around at 1, you had to wait until they were 20lbs. Now she knows!

OP, I'd print off a listing for a very cheap but adequate carseat and give it to the parents and have a talk about using a carseat. You don't have to make it really awkward but it might feel that way because you're confronting them about something and most people don't like to do that. You could even say that you can't stand the thought that if they got in an accident the kid might be killed, or that they could get pulled over and fined. I'd also demand that if you take the kids out, they have a proper carseat, because you can't be expected to take that responsibility on yourself just because they might be a little negligent.


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## swede (Nov 21, 2010)

I would mind my own business. I certainly wouldn't drive the child in my own car without the proper carseat, but what people do with their own children outside of my care is not my concern. I don't call up CPS everytime I see someone smoking in a car with a babe, either.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

I would ask why they choose not to use a carseat.Might consider cutting care if it bugged me so much.Kids won't always survive a car crash,but as I parent I would want to give them the best chance-and that means a carseat.

I would not call the police,but I would let the parents know how sad I am that they care so little for their childs safety.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

Since this has been going on for a while and these are friends I assume you don't want to alienate what about taking the , "I just learned xyz about carseats, can you believe it, I had no idea!" Maybe via email with some links about proper installation or common carseat errors, at least to bring the subject up and then see how they react.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I would find out from whoever licenses home daycare in your area what you can and/ or should do.


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## dayiscoming2006 (Jun 12, 2007)

I think you got some good suggestions OP. I'd certainly bring the car seat situation up to them and say that it makes you uncomfortable and just ask if they are aware of the laws.

If you are dependent on the income, I would be careful how far I pushed it. They may just look elsewhere.

I also agree with this...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swede*
> 
> I would mind my own business. I certainly wouldn't drive the child in my own car without the proper carseat, but what people do with their own children outside of my care is not my concern. I don't call up CPS everytime I see someone smoking in a car with a babe, either.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

I have a question I'm not clear on. Are all of the parents aware that their children are being transported in this way? I think that makes a difference on how you proceed.

I do like the somewhat passive approach of "I just had an inspection for licensing and have been told they are really cracking down on car seat use. I have to make sure all children are secured in proper seats before releasing them. Here's some info on proper seats for anyone who is unsure. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks so much for helping me comply!" Or something like that.


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## osker (Dec 4, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spring Lily*
> 
> I don't know the laws in Canada, but in the US providing daycare would make you a mandated reporter. Which could make you liable if anything happened to those kids, because you knowingly let them leave your house unsafely AND didn't report the situation.


Exactly!!


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

If you are acting as a regular care giver, you may have held personally responsible if you release the children into an unsafe situation. You might want to investigate local laws or call the police department or social services or your homeowners insurance policy and investigate your personal responsibility first. You could be held personally liable for the consequences of an accident and in the case of something like your homeowners policy, this could be a terms violation/excluded incident. So in addition to a terrible injury or death, you could lose your business and your home and personal assets.

This might be an easy approach with the parent: "I know X happens but I cannot allow it anymore. It violates local/federal law and as a child care giver, I can not release the child into a situation that violates the law. Offer a simple, easy solution like offering to store the Scenera (or other cheap car seat that is age appropriate) during the day etc.

The children *are* being put at risk by their parents behavior. Income and education do not necessarily make better parents but it certainly makes them able to afford an extra car seat to pass around. We have lots of people doing this at our preschool and every child is secured ever time it happens. It just takes a little bit more effort on the part of the parents.


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## BubbleMa (Sep 24, 2007)

I called the police on a woman driving down the highway with her very young toddler standing up in the back seat. I wouldn't call the police in this situation though. I think you should look into the regulations for child care providers though, and possibly use that. I wouldn't lie though, if there are no rules in place I would just "remind" them to leave the seats with you if the children will be riding with another family. OR, get a wagon and offer to walk them home.


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## OmNabila (Nov 24, 2010)

This is something I deal with on a regular basis. I deal with a lot of Egyptians that have either recently immigrated here or are visiting. I argued with my husband when my inlaws would not respect our laws and my wishes in regards to seat belting my 5 year old niece. A couple of our employees have infants and I have had to insist that they use car seats when traveling in my car. They all usually look at me like I have three heads and say"it's ok". I keep trying to explain to them that it is not ok and tell them about DYFS in NJ and tickets. I know that when they borrow my husband's work truck to go to the store they are not using car seats. I am worried about liability if they get into an accident. I stand my ground and don't drive the kids without carseats. I can only control what directly involves me.

So here it is, we can't control what other people do and how they raise their children. It sounds like the parent doing the driving does not think that driving a couple blocks like that is a big deal. Heck, I have gone a few doors down with my daughter in my lap in our suburban subdivision. In this case, with the children of a third party involved whom I had been given responsibility for, I might have played stupid for the purposes of not offending. I might have exclaimed "Oh my goodness, you forgot the extra carseats!". Before receiving the American version of the Egyptian "it's ok." I would have offered to walk the children that could not be accomodated or innocently ask if they were making multiple trips.

I don't think automatically involving the law and making it so an agency like DYFS is forever in their lives is productive for anyone. Save it for the truly egregious things.


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## stefflydia (Mar 3, 2011)

I agree with the first post. CALL 911.

I am a very big stickler on seat belt. I was in a car accident 1 1/2 blocks from my house. I drive a durango and was T-boned by a little white car. My 8 month old was in the car with me when it hapened. If he would not of been in his car seat (baby carrier rear facing). He would of been ejected from my car. I drove over the little white car.... SO I pose the question where would of my child ended up???

It doesn't matter if it is one block or a mile. The law is the law and in the U.S.A. carseats are required.

What if that parent rolled down the windo... kid being curious got up to look out and fell out??

A child doesn't understand what could happen to them a parent does..

CALL 911. Report it.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'd like to point out that calling 911 will not serve any purpose in some places. My sister has called 911 as well as social services many times because a mother of two kids under 4 allows them to play in the street alone and when my sister brings them home the mom tells her it's ok for them to play outside alone and if they want to play in the street that's ok too. To be honest, the police and social services should be spending their time and resources investigating things that are much more serious than someone driving kids a few blocks without proper carseats. How would you feel if you found out a child who was being beaten or sexually abused was put of the back burner because you were the squeaky wheel who insisted they come over to your house because of car seats?


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## MissMommyNiceNice (May 1, 2007)

I've totally called 911 for non-complying carseats on the road, given the license & description to the officers. I was in a car accident several years ago where there was a toddler standing in the backseat when the driver pulled out in front of me, hitting them was unavoidable. He hit me so hard it cracked my radiator. I was 3 blocks from home. That little girl could have died because she wasn't in a carseat, and I'm pretty much a stickler about it. The officer told them to call someone with a carseat, and they got two fines that day.

I would really just say that the new rule is everyone in their carseat when leaving, for liability purposes.

Also, as a disclaimer, my dcp is 1 block away, and once or twice DS1 has ridden home in a company car w/o a carseat. Not the best situation, but something that has happened on occasion. We certainly don't make a habit of it.


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## kimbersdawnly (Feb 19, 2007)

I don't have good advice for you, but I can certainly commiserate. I recently moved to the USVI and was astonished to realize many people here don't use them at all. In the last month I have seen more infants riding around on someones lap than I can handle. And it's not as if there's no where to drive here - there's a ton of road and people run read lights routinely, even right in front of marked police cars and yet no one gets pulled over. I've never seen traffic this headless of danger, and I grew up in Phoenix and Las Vegas and taking road trips through LA. It terrifies me that parents and drivers can be so thoughtless about such basic but important safety issues. But my concerns are met with an attitude of "that's how we do it here, you're the one who don't belong."

NOT a happy situation. I have that same inclination to jump in and fix it, but I can't.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *an_aurora*
> 
> Yes, I would demand they buy a seat. Or they could make arrangements with the child's parents to get the seat before they go pick up the child. It's not acceptable for a child to ride without a seat, even if it's only a "couple of blocks".


"Skipping the car seat because it's just a quick ride is like skipping the condom because it's just a quickie."

(I know not everyone agrees with condoms and b/c, but I hope it helps present the logic (or lack thereof) of the situation.


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## kimbersdawnly (Feb 19, 2007)

LOL! Thank you! That one I'm committing to memory.


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## dayiscoming2006 (Jun 12, 2007)

I lived in Romania for 3 months with kids and no car seat. I didn't have a car. We mostly took the bus or train but sometimes hitchhike (perfectly acceptable there) or a car ride was needed and trust me, they wouldn't have given me two seconds to install a carseat even if I had one. So, I ended up going without. It's just normal there. Back in the states now and my kids use their seats. I will say though, that it has happened once or twice that my son unbuckled himself and was standing in the back and I had to figure out where I would pull over to fix it. I would be really ticked off if someone called the cops on me over that. I'm certain most of you will disagree with me, but I am opposed to car seat laws in the US because we're supposed to be at liberty to make our own choices. I believe in using the seat belt and car seat but I don't think it should be required by law. Just like I don't think health insurance should be required by law. But, that's a bit off topic.

For OP, I'd definitely make sure you wouldn't be held liable and try to make them aware you'd prefer they used a car seat when going away from your home.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kimbersdawnly*
> 
> I don't have good advice for you, but I can certainly commiserate. I recently moved to the USVI and was astonished to realize many people here don't use them at all. In the last month I have seen more infants riding around on someones lap than I can handle. And it's not as if there's no where to drive here - there's a ton of road and people run read lights routinely, even right in front of marked police cars and yet no one gets pulled over. I've never seen traffic this headless of danger, and I grew up in Phoenix and Las Vegas and taking road trips through LA. It terrifies me that parents and drivers can be so thoughtless about such basic but important safety issues. But my concerns are met with an attitude of "that's how we do it here, you're the one who don't belong."
> 
> NOT a happy situation. I have that same inclination to jump in and fix it, but I can't.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dayiscoming2006*
> 
> but I am opposed to car seat laws in the US because we're supposed to be at liberty to make our own choices. I believe in using the seat belt and car seat but I don't think it should be required by law.


Car seat laws are meant to protect those who cannot make their own choice about whether they want to risk their life or not. If an adult wants to ride a motorcycle with no helmet, or drive with no seatbelt, I guess it's up to him. But, a baby or young child cannot decide if being ejected from a car at 65 mph is something they'd like to have potentially happen to them. It is unfortunate that some parents would not naturally choose to buckle their children safely, but since many would not if an expensive ticket wasn't a potential consequence, it must be a law.


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## kimbersdawnly (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mama2soren*
> 
> Car seat laws are meant to protect those who cannot make their own choice about whether they want to risk their life or not. If an adult wants to ride a motorcycle with no helmet, or drive with no seatbelt, I guess it's up to him. But, a baby or young child cannot decide if being ejected from a car at 65 mph is something they'd like to have potentially happen to them. It is unfortunate that some parents would not naturally choose to buckle their children safely, but since many would not if an expensive ticket wasn't a potential consequence, it must be a law.


Yes, I agree with this to a point. But Dayiscoming2006 has a valid point as well....

Here's the rub: Even though this seems like a common sense, good for us all sort of law, mandating by law the specific treatment of infants because they are infants and need to be protected is EXACTLY what prevents parents from having the right not to vaccinate in some states, and has called into question extended nursers and co sleepers alike. As soon as we allow the government to determine what's good for infants in one area of life, we essentially invite them into controlling other areas. It's a slippery slope. I don't want any organization to have more power to separate me from my children because of a counter to the mainstream decision I make to protect and care for them - but if we want to be free of that control, we have to realize that that means leaving parents who will not make such considered or positive decisions free of that control as well.

I have to admit that we have exactly that sort of situation here. No, no one seems to be interfering when people drive down the street with infants in their laps, or even when teachers smack kids with rulers at school or other such small violences. But there's also no one commenting when I nurse my 3 1/2 year old in public or stopping me from un/homeschooling my 8 year old even though by the laws here he should be in one of those ruler smacking schools.

It's certainly thought provoking....


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## mimi_mommy (Apr 28, 2010)

They aren't you children and you can't really tell them how to parent. Just as if they smoking around their children.

In a situation like this I would ask a police officer to come by to host a little seminar on how to properly install carseats and the list the carseat laws and regulations in your state/province. If you can rally a few friends to join you then invite said parents to attend. Hopefully they will pick up on the point or learn something they didn't know


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## Kat_shoshin (Feb 16, 2007)

You cannot keep their children from them at the end of the day - that is illegal. You can call the police and report it - but I would talk to them first,

Oh and I am a Canadian CPST and a home daycare provider. I have tried talking to parents - it almost never works - but you have to try - and again - I am a tech. If It's booster use - I just buy them a seat - my own money, If I encounter another child seat issue in the future, I would buy a seat for them, and tell them I will be adding $10 to their bill each month until it is paid. I tell them it's my issue - I cannot see a child improperly restrained.


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## BubbleMa (Sep 24, 2007)

Since you're friends with them, you could also send them an email with crash videos and some statistics stating that most accidents happen near home. Say something like, "Oh my gosh! Someone just sent me this, it's so scary!" Something along those lines. That way it's non-confrontational and you're just passing info along. They won't feel judged or put on the spot.


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## swimming-duck (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't know what the laws in Canada are regarding your liability on this. I'm a licensed daycare provider in the US. Because of that I'm a mandated reporter for neglect and/or abuse. So, if I knowingly let a child leave my home in an unsafe situation and do nothing I could be held liable. That being said, I'm not allowed to refuse to give someone their child at pick up. That's not legal either. However, if someone chooses to pick up their child and is behaving in a manner that would make their children unsafe, I would be required to contact police and/or child protection services. Let me be clear. This doesn't mean that I would say nothing and then just call the police or child protection services on them. I would talk with them about my concern for their child's safety. I also hate confrontation and there's nothing less fun than having to bring up issues like these with parents, but I personally believe that our job as childcare providers is to work with parents for what is best for the children. This doesn't mean telling them what to do as parents, but it does mean making strong suggestions when needed. I would explain that this is unsafe behavior, why it's unsafe, what could happen to a child not properly restrained in an accident, as well as my policy on such behavior. If you don't have a policy, this may be the time to develop one. Personally for me, if this behavior continued it would be grounds for termination from my care. This is not just about my liability as a mandated reporter. If a parent got into a car accident a block from my house and a child was seriously injured or killed due to lack of proper car seat, I could never live with myself if I had just kept quiet.


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## andsensibility (Jan 30, 2009)

This is not a parenting issue; this isn't a decision about breastfeeding vs. bottle feeding, or co-sleeping vs. hardcore CIO. This is a human rights issue, because anybody who puts a child in a car without an appropriate car seat is risking that child's life. It is illegal, and parents do not have the legal or moral right to make that choice, just like they don't have the right to choose to beat their child or molest them. Not using a car seat is potentially a bigger deal than either of those (yes, bigger than physical or sexual abuse), because the child could die. Dead, forever, in the ground, gone.

I would tell them to either come up with a legal solution or I would call the police to report it as soon as they left the house. And I would follow through.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *andsensibility*
> 
> This is not a parenting issue; this isn't a decision about breastfeeding vs. bottle feeding, or co-sleeping vs. hardcore CIO. This is a human rights issue, because anybody who puts a child in a car without an appropriate car seat is risking that child's life. It is illegal, and parents do not have the legal or moral right to make that choice, just like they don't have the right to choose to beat their child or molest them. Not using a car seat is potentially a bigger deal than either of those (yes, bigger than physical or sexual abuse), because the child could die. Dead, forever, in the ground, gone.
> 
> I would tell them to either come up with a legal solution or I would call the police to report it as soon as they left the house. And I would follow through.


Sorry but this just makes me laugh. Car seat use is a human rights issue?

Let's forget about people unjustly imprisoned and those who live without adequate food or clean water since there are monsters out there who are driving a couple blocks without car seats! Give me a break.

Parents DO have the right to choose. Parents have the right to choose to feed their child formula even though it's been proven to not be nearly as healthy as breastmilk. Parents can choose to leave their children in the care of drug addicts or molesters if they so choose. Parents can choose to cosleep even if others feel it is very unsafe. Parents have the right to choose not to vaccinate their children.

I think it's very similar to the vaccine issue. If a parents does vaccinate their child that child could be killed or seriously injured by it. If a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child that child could be killed or seriously injured. If a child is in a car seat they might be more likely to survive an accident. If a child is not in a car seat they might be more likely to survive a different type of accident. I was friends with a guy in high school who never wore a seatbelt then someone hit his car and it rolled several times. He slid right out the window and was unharmed but if he had been wearing a seatbelt he would not have survived. This is an extreme example but it proves that what is 'safe' might not always be.

I'm very concerned with the government making decisions like these for parents. The parent has the right to make choices for their child. What's next? Maybe it should be illegal to smoke in the presence of children? Illegal to breastfeed past a certain age? Illegal to feed your children non-organic food? Illegal to homeschool? Where does it end? Why not leave parents to care for their own children and you take care of your own?


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## PenelopeJune (Jan 22, 2008)

I would first ask them to please use a proper car seat for each child, and if they didn't, I would call the police.

I don't think it's harsh. A 1 year old baby in our community was just killed last week when his family was in a car accident. No one in the car was wearing a seat belt, and they were all injured (a mom, her mother, and a 7 year old girl.) The baby was properly strapped into a car seat, but it wasn't buckled into the car, and he was ejected from the vehicle. He spent two days in intensive care with severe head injuries before his parents finally had to make the choice to take him off of life support.

I would never be able to live with myself if my inaction caused the death of a child.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


> I think it's very similar to the vaccine issue. If a parents does vaccinate their child that child could be killed or seriously injured by it. If a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child that child could be killed or seriously injured. If a child is in a car seat they might be more likely to survive an accident. If a child is not in a car seat they might be more likely to survive a different type of accident.
> 
> I'm very concerned with the government making decisions like these for parents. The parent has the right to make choices for their child. What's next? Maybe it should be illegal to smoke in the presence of children? Illegal to breastfeed past a certain age? Illegal to feed your children non-organic food? Illegal to homeschool? Where does it end? Why not leave parents to care for their own children and you take care of your own?


IMO, it's nothing like the vaccine "issue." I choose not to vaccinate, because I believe that vaccines pose risks to my child's health and safety. I'd rather take the risk of him being exposed to a disease he's not artificially immune to. There is a risk to vaccinating and a risk to not vaccinating. It's a parent's absolute right to decide which risks to take on, since no side is risk-free. In comparison, there is NO risk to using a car seat properly, and the risk of death or severe, life-long injury if a child is not appropriately restrained. No one chooses not to use a car seat because they have legitimate concerns about the risks of proper car seat use. It is absolutely not true that a child might be safer unrestrained in a certain type of accident. Sorry.

In your opinion, when IS it ok for the government to step in to advocate for a child? Or, is it all or nothing in your opinion? The laws should not prohibit putting a child's life at risk by letting him ride in a car unrestrained, apparently. Should they also not step in if a child's life is at risk because of other parental choices? Neglect, for instance? Leaving a young child alone for the day while the parent works? Withholding food? It's a bit of a stretch to say that, because laws regulate car seat usage, a law prohibiting potato chips and extended nursing is just around the corner.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

I was thinking something along these lines...

I might even go so far as to ask the local police/fire dpt to come to the daycare at pickup time one day to do a special demonstration on car seat safety. I'd just casually mention to the dpt that as a daycare provider I see all sorts of different ways of carseats being installed/used and wanted to further education on the issue b/c I know it's a big safety concern. Then I'd advertise to the parents that at such and such time/day this carseat safety event would be taking place. Of course that would only work if all parents pick up at the same time.

Another idea is to teach about car safety to the children. But then that would really only work with the older ones, say 3-4 yrs or so....

I would definitely say something, but would def NOT report it. Most people when reported will get revenge by in turn reporting you. I would however say something to the other parent if the first parent does not remedy the situation. I would want to know if someone was not putting my kid in a proper seat, and there are some otherwise wonderful parents out there who just don't think much of seatbelts. Is it statistically likely that anything will happen? No! But god forbid something did happen, I'd want to knwo that I had done all that I could to educate on the issue.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asraidevin*
> 
> I would get a car seat brochure from your local public health and mention it casually that you've been reading up on how dangerous it is etc., that you didn't know before and offer the brochure or say you got one for all the kids and it's in their bag or something. If they know you've noticed, they might be inclined to change.


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## andsensibility (Jan 30, 2009)

I consider life to be a fundamental human right, yes.

I'm not too clear on the car-seat-slippery-slope argument; the government already has intervened. Seat belt laws have been in place since the 1980s, and I haven't seen any Big Brother posters floating around yet. Regardless of whether or not you think the government should say something about this issue, the fact is that they have. It is illegal to carry a child without a car seat. It's perfectly appropriate to call in law enforcement to enforce this. Governments exist to protect the rights of their citizens, especially the vulnerable. When somebody is putting a child's life at risk, the government has an obligation to step in to protect that tiny citizen -- even from its own parents.

I appreciate that when people do this, they don't think the risk is too great, they think they're safe drivers, that they're in a safe area, that they're only going a few blocks. I realise that parents do run a quick mental risk assessment before putting a child unrestrained into the car, and that it doesn't seem that risky. That's normal, and it's something they have in common with the parents of the ~1,300 children who died in motor accidents last year and the ~184,000 who were injured (statistics extrapolated from 2005 stats). If it seemed risky, _nobody would do it_. But it seems safe, so they forge ahead, and sometimes children die because of it.

I think part of the problem is the fact that we're so used to cars. We spend so much time in them and around them that we have to build up pretty sturdy layers of delusion regarding the phenomenal physical forces involved. If a car crashes while going 40 mph, an unrestrained person inside the car would hit the (windscreen, seat, whatever) with the same force as if they'd fallen from a five-story building. And that's if the car collides with a stationary object - if they hit another car head-on, which is perfectly possible in any area with two-way traffic, the forces are much, much greater.

40 mph isn't that fast. In residential areas, speed limits are generally around 25-35 mph. Even if we knock a few stories off to account for a lower speed, you're still going to hit hard. Would you dangle your child out of a second-story window? Third-story?

Of course you wouldn't. You love your child and don't want them to be grievously injured or killed. But letting them go without a child restraint is exactly the same thing.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

Quote:


> Why not leave parents to care for their own children and you take care of your own?


Because many many parents don't take care of their children, harm their children, and sometimes kill their children. Absolute freedom is impossible-there are too many competing individual rights for society to flow smoothly without some laws protecting the weak and disadvantaged among us.

Vaccines aren't even close to the same thing as car seat requirements. As a PP said, there is a valid risk to benefit ratio when it comes to vaccines. Not so with car seats.


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## tinablov (Dec 9, 2010)

I would mind my own business.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

I would say this:

"I'm feeling pretty uncomfortable about something, and I need to get it off my chest. I noticed that not all the kids are in carseats when they leave here, and I just wanted to say that I would feel better if they were in proper carseats. I'm not sure if you know the nitty gritty details, but a child is required to be properly restrained in a carseat until ______."

Them: "Oh, yes, of course. But we're just going a couple of blocks."

Me: "I realize that, but as a daycare provider, I have to be sure that my kids are going to get home safe. Are you able to get another carseat, or do you want one of mine?"

Them: "Oh, that's not necessary. I'm a good driver. LIke I said, it's just a couple of blocks."

Me: "It's not a choice, really. It's the law. If anyone saw you driving them while not restrained, they could call the police."

Them: "Oh. Yeah. Well, it'd be better if you'd mind your own business."

Me: "I'm doing exactly that. I'm going to revise the childcare contract to require anyone picking up any of the kids to have a properly installed carseats for each child. Are you going to be able to do that? If not, we'll need to talk about you finding another childcare provider."

Or something along those lines.

And if it were a stranger, I'd call 911. I have done, and I've seen the cops come and ticket them. They take it seriously. As would any sane person. I'm a paramedic, and I've been to calls where the children were lying dead or dying in the middle of the highway because they'd been ejected from the vehicle because they weren't properly restrained. I've also seen a small child nearly cut in two from being restrained by just a lap belt. This isn't a 'parenting style' issue. It's a life and death safety issue.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i like the idea of doing a "safety" day for the kids and send home some info including stuff on carseats.

i would NOT call 911 or the police.

i would even guess the parents know that parent A has no car seats and is ok with it.

i do have to say i am always amazed at how quickly people will call the police and report someone for doing something they think is most important. to me there is something to the point of parents choosing what is best for their families. do i want someone to call 911 or CPS on me because i unschool or co-sleep or i don't vax? where do we draw the line? and when you say this is OK to report when does it stop? only when it is something you don't care about?


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## HeckedyPeg (May 15, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *andsensibility*
> 
> This is not a parenting issue; this isn't a decision about breastfeeding vs. bottle feeding, or co-sleeping vs. hardcore CIO. This is a human rights issue, because anybody who puts a child in a car without an appropriate car seat is risking that child's life. It is illegal, and parents do not have the legal or moral right to make that choice, just like they don't have the right to choose to beat their child or molest them. Not using a car seat is potentially a bigger deal than either of those (yes, bigger than physical or sexual abuse), because the child could die. Dead, forever, in the ground, gone.
> 
> I would tell them to either come up with a legal solution or I would call the police to report it as soon as they left the house. And I would follow through.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elus0814*
> 
> Sorry but this just makes me laugh. Car seat use is a human rights issue?
> 
> ...


I have to agree with andsensibility. I'm actually shocked at how many responses are saying "just mind your own business" or that it doesn't matter. The BIG difference between carseats and something like the vaccine issue is when you're choosing to vaccinate or not there are PROS AND CONS TO EACH SIDE of the issue. I can't think of any major CONS of using a carseat! It's inconvenient and possible expensive at worst, but there are many options if pricing is an issue, but all those pale in the face of the big glaring fact that if you're in an accident with a child they are very likely to be seriously injured or die. Doesn't anyone remember watching the Red Asphalt movies from the seventies before carseats and seatbelts were the law?

elus0814 points out that there are times when being properly restrained may actually hurt you more ... there will always be miraculous stories of survival, even when the person wasn't doing things "right" (ie: wearing a seatbelt), but the PREVENTABLE injury and death resulting from people not using carseats or wearing seat belts will always outnumber those miracles.

My mom and grandma were involved in a car accident this past December. My DS and I should have been in the car with them, but we had taken a special trip that day. If we had been in that car and DS had not been in a carseat, if anyone in that car had not been wearing their seatbelt, they would have died. My grandmother is notorious for never buckling up, but she did that day and it saved her life. Carseats and seatbelts save many more lives than not, and it's totally irresponsible for parents to not take every precaution with their kids.

As for OP's original point- I would first make sure all parents of all kids involved know what is going on (I would be FURIOUS if I found out my friend wasn't putting my kids in a carseat); and check your local laws. I think a gentle yet informative approach would be better than calling 911 (or Canadian equivalent), I like the idea of a "safety day" as other pp's have mentioned.

www.thecarseatlady.com has a whole page of info for care providers (http://www.thecarseatlady.com/for_pediatricians_and_cps_professionals/for_pediatricians_and_cps_professionals.html), so if you need fodder for handouts I'm sure you can find it there, and I believe they have info for Canadian laws as well as USA. She also has a page about taxis, I read it while researching a possible trip to NYC, where it is legal for kids to ride in taxi's without carseats; I think it has good info about what happens in accidents while kids are being held in arms or by baby carriers.

ETA: I also want to add, I commute about 100 miles a day (roundtrip) on Los Angeles freeways ... no driver thinks they will ever get in an accident, everyone wants to think that they are a good driver, and safe, but you absolutely can not control what all the other idiots on the road are doing. I have seen some very scary drivers on the road, and those are going to be the people who are crashing into you while you can do nothing about it. Ugh, I'm so disturbed by this. A few blocks? It doesn't matter. Protect your kids!!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think it is not exactly a human rights issue, but it IS a legal issue. OP's first step will have to be to find out what the recommended course of action is for childcare providers in her province, so as to minimize her liability.


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## RiverTam (May 29, 2009)

If the kid is big enough to be belted into an adult seatbelt and the parents are using the adult seatbelt, I would mind my own business.

Car seats don't improve safety much, if at all, for kids older than two.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/magazine/10FREAK.html?ex=1189915200&en=641c83d4b0668293&ei=5070


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RiverTam*
> 
> If the kid is big enough to be belted into an adult seatbelt and the parents are using the adult seatbelt, I would mind my own business.
> 
> ...


That has been debunked by car seat experts many times over.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

What *an_aurora* said.

Truly, I thought we were past that part of the debate.


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## 2doves (Mar 8, 2011)

we had this discussion on another mom forum im on and i was really curious to see what you ladies would say. I am assuming the person has carseats appropriate for their own children but you said they pick up kids who are not their own. a lot of families dont have enough room in their vehicle for 3 or more carseats (we dont!) and it is tough to transfer seats anyway sometimes (my husband has to do it here) so im assuming they dont ride around like that all the time, just going from your house to the other houses in the nieghborhood. i dont think its a big deal if its neighborhood driving. if they have to cross a busy street or drive down a busy street a while ill be really concerned about getting hit by another fast moving car. in a neighborhood going 10-20 mph without traffic, i really wouldnt worry about it. besides, you have 3 parents who are ok with this. you are the only one who's not. in this case, (and imo) its really their business! If you want to bring it up, id do it lightheartedly, in a nice way, but show your surprise, like say "oh my! (smile smile) are they OK riding without carseats? i guess you dont have far to go... you sure its safe? (smile)" and then mention what you might be concerned about like- "people can drive really fast through here...." i would definitely not call the cops or imply that they should be in trouble for breaking the law. that will definitely rub them the wrong way and seems too extreme.

OK! I just wrote this after reading the first few responses, looks like i missed a lot! still reading.... 

after reading most of the responses.... good point to find out if you have any liability as the child care provider to make sure they leave your house in a proper carseat. if you are, id have no problem just saying "i by law have to make sure everyone leaves properly restrained, and i see yours are not, ill be happy to provide you with information on it if you arent sure what is required..." etc. but a human rights issue worse than abuse? hmmm. all i have to say is that if you abuse a child you are doing it intentionally and you are actually causing harm. if you put a child at risk you are doing just that, putting a child at risk. that to me is NOT the same or as bad as actually harming a child and doing it intentionally.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> Me: "I realize that, but as a daycare provider, I have to be sure that my kids are going to get home safe. Are you able to get another carseat, or do you want one of mine?"


If my kids were ever in a daycare situation I would never tolerate anyone speaking of my children that way.

"I have to be sure that MY kids are going to get home safe". Even if car seats had magical powers that would be sure to get kids in them home safe the kids are not your children. Let me repeat. They are NOT your children. Making a statement where you refer to someone else's children as "my kids" would be an indication to me that as a child care provider you are overstepping your bounds and have crossed into the realm of creepy. Ever see the movie "The hand that rocks the cradle"? I would not bring my children back and would also tell the other parents about it. Even if my kid's grandparents said something like that my kids would no longer be allowed alone with them.

Parents talk. If the OP is serious about her daycare business and needs the income saying things like this or calling the police could ruin all that. She would be blackballed. As a parent I know I would not take my kids to a child care provider if I had heard about that provider calling the police on parents. I think mentioning it to parents, giving out pamphlets or papers, having a safety day, offering to buy carseats for the kids, or telling a white lie about it being a new requirement for you to check or something like that is what should be done.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Alright, *elus*, so insert "daycare" and have it read, "I have to be sure the my DAYCARE kids get home safe," even though every single daycare provider I know refers to their daycare kids as "my kids."

As for the reference to "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle," please. Seriously? That is so far fetched, it's laughable.

If anyone had that conversation with me, I'd go red and feel defensive and maybe spout off at the mouth with excuses, then I would go home and think about it and calm down and be glad that my daycare provider was concerned about the children in her care, and that she felt a sense of responsibility for their safety, and was comfortable enough with our working relationship to be honest and forthright and say what was on her mind rather than call 911 behind my back.


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## FbksMama (Jan 21, 2011)

I like that - "car seat nerd." That's how I feel! I think people don't realize that keeping kids rear-facing could save their lives. Most people don't realize that you should keep them rear-facing for as long as physically possible and not just turn them around at one year. I am a psycho when it comes to double-checking my hubby's work on putting our son in the car. There's no reason we shouldn't all be car-seat nerds! There's some serious crazies on the road! And IMO those kids should just walk.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *starling&diesel*
> 
> Alright, *elus*, so insert "daycare" and have it read, "I have to be sure the my DAYCARE kids get home safe," even though every single daycare provider I know refers to their daycare kids as "my kids."
> 
> ...


I mean this is the most polite way possible.

You have only one child. Just one. I've spent time as a mother of one child before I had my other kids. It was easy. It was also easy to see things simply and to think all other parents have it easy too. I remember thinking things like "how could any parent ever do anything that wasn't the absolute very safest and best way to do things in regards to their children". Then I had more kids and I realized how easy I had it and how those who have more than one child are not always able to take such a simplistic view and need to do what they have to do to take care of everyone even if it's not the safest way to go about things.

BTW, to me it IS super creepy for anyone other than a parent or guardian to say 'my kids'. That would be a major red flag to me that the child care provider was thinking of my children as their own. It's not the exact same situation as the movie but it's eerily similar to me. When my oldest was in preschool - not a daycare that calls itself a preschool but an actual preschool in a school for 4 and 5 year olds - the teachers NEVER called any child 'my child' and I spent hours and hours there volunteering.


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

*elus* ...

The number of children I have does not and will not have any bearing whatsoever on my commitment and ability to increase their basic safety by ensuring that they are all properly secured in quality car seats at all times while driving in a personal vehicle, which is both the law and common sense. Any insinuation to the contrary is simply asinine and insulting.


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