# How old is too old for skin-to-skin?



## JSerene

It never occurred to me that there was an age cut off for skin-to-skin, but I got an odd comment about it from my sister and wondered what the rest of the world thinks. Is there a day when you as a parent decide cuddle time can no longer be skin-to-skin time?


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## One_Girl

I never cuddled my dd naked because I never felt that it was appropriate. She was sometimes only in a diaper when she nursed, or later naked because she stripped her pj's off at night but it was never something that both of us were at the same time. I am not that concerned about casual nudity or her seeing me naked while I am showering or dressing but I don't think naked cuddling is appropriate. Some of that is because I had my boundaries seriously violated as a child. If you make it work for you then that is a family choice, in my family it isn't going to happen.


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## Youngfrankenstein

I have never thought about it. My kids were all born in the winter so I think there wasn't nearly as much skin to skin and in the summer. We are at the beach and my 8 month old is getting lots of skin to skin because she's in a diaper a lot and I'm in my swimsuit. When I nurse her my top is basically off. I don't think there would be an inappropriate way to have skin-to-skin.

I don't do skin-to-skin on purpose but not because I find it wrong, it's just not what I like anyway.


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## Mommy2Austin

Nakedness is just another state of being in my house. So my kiddos get hugs and snuggles when mommy is naked sometimes and when they are naked. When One or both of us (individual children) no longer feel comfortable it won't happen. I don't normally tend to ask for cuddles when I'm naked, but the kiddos like to hop in bed with us in the morning and we don't wear clothes to bed. Its all about everyone comfort level. I want my kiddos to understand that being naked isn't a taboo issue.


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## lach

We did some skin to skin cuddling when they were tiny newborns, but after that it doesn't seem very practical to strip off my shirt and their clothes every time they get upset. I'd rather skip to the cuddling and comforting part. The WHO has identified between 20 and 40 benefits of skin to skin contact (the range is because some results are not statistically significant in research, but they still consider them), but it's unclear to me that any of them transfer or are applicable to older babies, let alone toddlers or older children. They are things like temperature regulation, stimulating breastfeeding, and providing comfort to babies who can't see or localize touch.


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## Marsupialmom

When someone starts feeling uncomfortable with it.

For some this means, never. Others will be years later.


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## meemee

we are a naked family. its dd and me. and we mostly cosleep naked. no one is going to tell me what i should or should not do in my house.

now that's just how it is. doesnt mean we are going for skin to skin time. i mean dd was born in summer and i leaked so much that the first couple fo months i just walked around at home topless because it was useless having to do so much laundry.

dd and i took showers and bath together till she could manage at 5. even now sometimes she invites me to have one with her because we always have so much fun together.

so i would do what is comfortable for you all.


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## Heavenly

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
we are a naked family. its dd and me. and we mostly cosleep naked. *no one is going to tell me what i should or should not do in my house.*
now that's just how it is. doesnt mean we are going for skin to skin time. i mean dd was born in summer and i leaked so much that the first couple fo months i just walked around at home topless because it was useless having to do so much laundry.

dd and i took showers and bath together till she could manage at 5. even now sometimes she invites me to have one with her because we always have so much fun together.

so i would do what is comfortable for you all.

I would be careful what you put out there on the internet because this statement isn't necessarily true. You are sleeping naked with an 8 year old? I think many people would consider that worthy of looking into. Not saying whether or not I agree but I am a social work student going into the field of child abuse and I can guarantee you it would not be seen as okay.


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## meemee

WOAH?!!!! really?!!!!

what about nudist camps? what about places like Burning Man?

what about nudist vacations that are the rage now?

if dd and i went on a nude vacation where we walked nude on the beach like everyone else - that could get a call from CPS?!!!!


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## lonegirl

I am not a naked person....I like having clothes on.
That said....my son's favourite request from me is a "tummy hug". Whenever he sees me changing or when he takes his top off he always asks for one. This is skin-to-skin warm tummy hugs. I see no issue with it...I know one day he will no longer ask for one....but for now I will continue with them.


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## Joyster

My guys are really on the go so cuddling is not a huge option unless I'm sitting watching a movie with them. They too were both born in the fall/winter so skin to skin other than a diaper while we were nursing wasn't readily available.

That said, they do love backrubs which is always skin to skin, especially my youngest who needs one to calm down when he's agitated.


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## D_McG

I stop sleeping topless when I wean (22mos and 20 mos). My son is 4 and I just started to feel self conscious getting changed in front of him. I'll change quickly but that's where it ends, now.

Sleeping naked with an 8 year old is well outside of my comfort zone.


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## loraxc

I will still hug my 2yo if he happens to be naked, but I don't like, get naked and get him naked and cuddle! I also don't hang around the house naked myself, so it just doesn't come up.


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## loraxc

Also, in terms of sleeping naked with an older child, I would want to consider whether the memory of that was going to be embarrassing to my child at a later date.


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## nextcommercial

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Also, in terms of sleeping naked with an older child, I would want to consider whether the memory of that was going to be embarrassing to my child at a later date.

That. I'm so glad I don't have any memories of my dad naked.


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## bestjob

I echo the sentiment that it is when either party starts feeling uncomfortable, it is time to cover up. Skin to skin can still be holding hands or snuggling into the crook of your neck or playing footsies while you watch a movie. My big kids still do those things, and my youngest (ds is 9 yo) still snuffles into my armpit when he wakes up too early and we both want to doze.

However, if I "accused" him of snuffling in my armpit, or if I asked the big kids to play footsies, they'd be mortified and they'd never do it again.


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## 4evermom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
That. I'm so glad I don't have any memories of my dad naked.

That memory doesn't bother me.


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## blessedwithboys

my 8yo would probably love to snuggle up with my boobs, my 15yo would not.

nudity is no big deal to me, but my kids are much more modest. ds1 and i have not been naked around each other in YEARS. ds2 says he doesnt want to be seen unclothed but he puts his dirty clothes in the hamper in my room and then runs across the house to his bathroom to shower. if he really cared, he'd get undressed in the bathroom and then put on clean clothes and then go put his dirty stuff away.

also, i sleep naked, and if ds2 wakes up from a bad dream, he come into my bed. he could care less about me being naked, but if i sense him getting in the bed, i reach down to the floor and pull on some clothes. i'm not uncomfortable myself, but i just know ds will say something to my ex and that will start something i dont really need to deal with in my already hectic life, yk?


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## Chamomile Girl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
That memory doesn't bother me.









THANK you! Same here. I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

Naked can just be naked, and skin to skin contact with children is a loving thing.


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## rhiOrion

would skin-to-skin time have to be naked, anyhow? I consider it skin to skin if my DD is in just a diaper and I have my shirt off. That happens pretty frequently (but she's only four months old, and sometimes taking my shirt off is easier than leaving it on when she's having a really nursy day.)


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## VK1987

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
WOAH?!!!! really?!!!!

what about nudist camps? what about places like Burning Man?

what about nudist vacations that are the rage now?

if dd and i went on a nude vacation where we walked nude on the beach like everyone else - that could get a call from CPS?!!!!

It's about how it sounds to people outside your home. You do need to be careful what you post on the internet, you never know how a stranger might take it.


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## Maela

I would say after weaning, which _for me_ is 2-3 years.

but I completely understand other people having different opinions.


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## eepster

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSerene* 
wondered what the rest of the world thinks.

I'd just like to point out that _we_ aren't the rest of the world. We are the people who choose to spend our time on a *natural parenting* site. We aren't very representative of the world. People you meet IRL may be much more representative of the world (or at least the part of it in which you live.)


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## sapphire_chan

If either person is uncomfortable, particularly the child, the child is too old.

As dd gets older, I'm expecting that skin-to-skin will continue, but with less nekkie baby butt.









ETA:
As for my own comfort, skin-to-skin will stop if she's weaned and still tries to twiddle a nipple.
I will also make sure to always cover up the affected area if she ever moves to twiddling anywhere else, e.g. private parts, because that'd just squick me out.


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## velochic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
WOAH?!!!! really?!!!!

what about nudist camps? what about places like Burning Man?

what about nudist vacations that are the rage now?

if dd and i went on a nude vacation where we walked nude on the beach like everyone else - that could get a call from CPS?!!!!

Ummm... walking on the beach nude is VEEEEERY different than snuggling together naked in bed. It sounds as it sounds and yes, I would not be surprised if someone IRL called CPS if they knew you not just co-sleep naked, but spend the night with lots of skin contact.

Yes, 8 is WAY outside my radar and comfort zone (my dd is 8). Purposeful skin-to-skin contact ended when dd was getting really mobile. She was seeking other sensory feedback at this stage and wanting to explore her world. I think over the first few months, the skin-to-skin connection to the womb is _needed_ less and less. Until she weaned, I didn't have a problem nursing dd without her shirt on (so of course there was skin-to-skin contact), but I wouldn't take mine off. She night-weaned at about 16 mos. and I always wore a shirt to bed even when she was an infant. I don't like to sleep unclothed.


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## AllisonR

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
When someone starts feeling uncomfortable with it.

For some this means, never. Others will be years later.

Well said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
That. I'm so glad I don't have any memories of my dad naked.

I have one memory. That was me about age 8 going into my parents bathroom for something, which went by my dads closet. He was naked, getting a pair of underwear, and turned and SCREAMED, I mean really screamed like an enraged monster about to attack "Get the H*LL OUT OF HERE!" I was so scared I didn't see anything, and I was really confused for a long time why he would be so enraged. What could I have seen? His penis? So what? What is so special or unique, or good or bad, sexual or not, beautiful or dirty.... about that. I'm sure his is just like everyone else's penis. I think it affected me in the way I thought about it, and decided how everyone's body is actually quite normal, natural, and well, generic.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bestjob* 
I echo the sentiment that it is when either party starts feeling uncomfortable, it is time to cover up. Skin to skin can still be holding hands or snuggling into the crook of your neck or playing footsies while you watch a movie. My big kids still do those things, and my youngest (ds is 9 yo) still snuffles into my armpit when he wakes up too early and we both want to doze.

However, if I "accused" him of snuffling in my armpit, or if I asked the big kids to play footsies, they'd be mortified and they'd never do it again.

I can so totally see this happening when my kids are older.


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## GoBecGo

Disclaimer *i'm in the UK and very northern European in my attitudes!*

I sleep naked or in underpants. So if DD1 gets in bed with me and DH (who also sleeps in underpants) and SHE is naked (which she often is because she won't stay dressed!) there will be skin to skin. I don't really think that's the same as us both stripping off purposefully to have skin to skin, but whatever.

I still bathe and shower with both DD's, so there is nudity and skin to skin there too.

Don't we all like skin to skin? I love to snuggle with my partner, or with my kids. My kids love to snuggle with me. Are humans supposed to get 6 months of skin-to-skin at the beginning of life and then starve for it until they're in a sexual relationship? That seems like a good way to make sexual contact before the person is really ready for it happen to me - i know a LOT of girls who had sex before they were really ready because the cuddling "made them feel loved". I think loving contact (nude or not) is a human need, and one which should be met by me until the child reaches a stage when they would rather it was met by someone else.

I have lots of memories of my dad, and some times, because he is a human being and didn't have clothes painted on, he was naked. I'm sure he remembers me naked, especially since he last saw me naked 9.5 weeks ago when he was with me while i had my baby. I remember my mother naked too, in good times (having a shower together when i was a kid) and bad (cleaning her up during her terminal illness when she was too ill to cope on her own). I think i'm actually glad to have seen her in those lights as well as the hundreds of lights i saw her in when she was dressed. I guess i just don't see the massive difference between a dressed parent and a naked one...?

Nudity isn't sex. I was sexually abused as a child for 7 years and some of the most frightening and haunting things which happened to me happened when me and my abuser were fully clothed. Malign contact can easily be achieved through clothes, just as benign contact can be achieved in any state of dress or undress.

No-one, especially the kids, should be doing anything they don't feel comfortable with, but equally i don't think i should have to curb my nudity around my kids because someone else somewhere else would feel uncomfortable about it.


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## sleepingbeauty

I think this is another one of those "to each their own" things. I noticed that the girls like to cuddle more when we're all in bathing suits and stuff. We all change in the same room.

Honestly? I remember what my parents look like naked and it doesn't bother me one bit. It was weird when I was smaller because I grew up in a very conservative area and ANYTHING about the body was pretty much off-limits. Now that I have a more balanced view? Not a problem.

In the future, I plan on having lots of skin-to-skin with my own children. I also plan on showering together, changing together, etc. because I really do believe that that is the BEST way to show our sons and daughters what a real body looks like. I also think that is will show them that bodies are ok and not something to be ashamed of, ykwim?


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## Hoopin' Mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
THANK you! Same here. I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. .

You really can't imagine that some people have certain dynamics in their family that would make that an issue? Wow. Then you are very lucky, in my opinion. I'm not even comfortable walking around in a bathing suit around my Dad. And I was not sexually abused by him.

Anyway, we are ridiculous cuddlers in my little family but haven't done skin-skin since nursing I suppose. Now that ds is 6, I am back to feeling that my breasts are private areas and don't feel comfortable with it. He WILL touch my nipples when given the opportunity.


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## allaiter

skin is skin regardless of how much is shown.

here.. we DH and I sleep in undies, all four of my kids end up in bed at some point with us. DD12 DS9 DD6 DD20months.
Now when my DS lays down with me at night (sometimes we read in bed next to each other) I wear a tanktop. He is 9 and sees my boobs enough through out the day with an adventurous nurser around. But if he crawls in bed with me at night and the tank is off it almost always stays off.
He use to only open up to me if I was in the shower/bath or getting dressed. HE needed my full attention and He got it then. I even talk with a therapist friend about it (i thought it was odd) and she said he will stop when he is ready. And he did.
Now only my oldest DD12, will not walk around in her undies, but she is getting her own set of boobs and is slowly becoming more private and that is fine. She does ask her stepdad my DH to take her bra shopping though ( i think it is because he will just buy what ever she wants so he can get out of there).

I grew up in a very open house and walking around in undies was nothing but normal. Little nudies running around was ok, and if there were people over or other family parts were covered.

Bodies are ok and if sleeping nude and airing out parts (what my DD6 says she does with no undies in bed) is your thing, and it has always been your thing that is it ok. IF it is a NEW thing..that is different......


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## canadianhippie

my first response when i saw the OP thread title,

NEVER!

Skin to Skin isnt naked, its any skin to any skin, mama and dd in tanktops cuddling, thats skin to skin, DS in boxers, mama in nightie curled up, thats skin to skin!

I cant say im a nakey person, but this is MDC after all, natural parenting in your natural state right? I dont see what the issue is with mama's feeling comfortable in their bodies and their children as well to be giving affection with out pieces of cloth wrapped around their bodies.


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## jessica_s

I know the last two posters just said it but

*skin to skin doesn't mean anyone has to be naked*

It's just literally skin to skin. Hand holding, a touch on the arm, a big hug touching cheeks, sitting really close to someone, those are all skin to skin things. At some point I think that another person will take the place of mom and dad in getting the majority of that time but hey no one is too old for a good hug! If you got too old for skin to skin, well, I think we'd die out pretty quick.









My DS who is no longer nursing loves to lay his head on my bare belly. He also likes to curl up with my arm to snuggle. He's 4 and I love that he is comfortable with touch, so I'll keep on meeting his skin to skin needs in a way that works for him.


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## Youngfrankenstein

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Don't we all like skin to skin?.

Not me. I really like to have clothes on....to each his/her own, I guess.


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## *bejeweled*

velochic said:


> Ummm... walking on the beach nude is VEEEEERY different than snuggling together naked in bed. It sounds as it sounds and yes, I would not be surprised if someone IRL called CPS if they knew you not just co-sleep naked, but spend the night with lots of skin contact.
> 
> Yes, 8 is WAY outside my radar and comfort zone (my dd is 8).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not at ALL in my comfort zone either!!!


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## lovingmommyhood

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I'd just like to point out that _we_ aren't the rest of the world. We are the people who choose to spend our time on a *natural parenting* site. We aren't very representative of the world. People you meet IRL may be much more representative of the world (or at least the part of it in which you live.)

For a person's OWN protection they should be careful what they post on the internet. That is, I believe, what the pp meant. A person could get in trouble for things like that and bring a lot of drama into their own lives. Like it, or not.


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## WindyCityMom

GoBecGo had a great post







s

For us, it is whenever whoever starts feeling uncomfortable with it.


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## eepster

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
For a person's OWN protection they should be careful what they post on the internet. That is, I believe, what the pp meant. A person could get in trouble for things like that and bring a lot of drama into their own lives. Like it, or not.

I wasn't trying to say that it was completely safe to post all about it here, I was just pointing out that even though many of us MDCers are pretty relaxed about nudity/skin contact/etc that doesn't mean most people in our broader society are relaxed about it. MDC posters are just not a representative sampling on many levels. I think it's important to keep this in mind when trying to figure out what is considered generally acceptable by society.

I agree, that it is the kind of personal information that should only be shared with caution. Admitting to personally sleeping/cuddling naked with children can indeed be misconstrued by some.


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## NightOwlwithowlet

DH's family is freaked out by naked toddlers. I mean seriously disturbed by my then 18 month old streaking through the kitchen after a bath. My MIL was very upset that I breast fed after 6 weeks. DH's story of when he accidentally saw his mother naked when he was seven would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

My family was a little too casual with nudity when I was a kid for my comfort zone. It was the 1970s, they were hippies, we lived on commune. Seeing my dad and step dad naked when we were swimming didn't warped me for life. I'm just a little more prudish. DH and I had to find a happy middle ground for ourselves.

My eight year old DS just hugged me today when I was getting out of the shower. He only had shorts on. I was a little uncomfortable. He still co sleeps occasionally for an hour or two, but we wear some clothes. DS is a cuddler, he loves to have his back rubbed. He loves to drape himself over us when we are watching tv. He hugs his dad all the time when they are shirtless. Skin to skin is great, but it has to be comfortable for both of us.


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## BunnySlippers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Also, in terms of sleeping naked with an older child, I would want to consider whether the memory of that was going to be embarrassing to my child at a later date.

I always think of this too. I have family memebers that totally over-do the naked baby/toddler/child thing because they so want it to be a non-issue or something. I just worry about when the kids get older and over half the pics are about flaunting thier nakedness in public places.

OP- As for skin to skin- do you mean deliberately getting both of you naked for some designated contact time?
In that case, never.

but dd was born in the summer and it was hot. I was often topless in the privacy of my own living space and she was either naked or diapered, so we nursed like that sometimes. Other times it was too hot and sticky and I had to put a recieving blanket between us.
Plus there was showering together when she was wee and I would hold her on my chest (awww, thats a good memory I have not thought of in a long itme







).
So we had unintentional skin to skin, which stopped probably when she stopped nursing at almost 3yrs old.


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## BunnySlippers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
That memory doesn't bother me.









but it bothers some people, so it needs to be considered.


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## lonegirl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Youngfrankenstein* 
Not me. I really like to have clothes on....to each his/her own, I guess.

that's me too....I really don't feel comfortable in the nude....I also prefer ds to have a tshirt on at night....just cuz his skin feels so clammy when he snuggles.


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## Adaline'sMama

I feel like when I am done nursing DD I will stop having my naked boobs touching her and sleeping naked with her. I think bathing and showering is more acceptable than cuddling and sleeping together naked. I dont know, I just think that when kids are closer to being a preteen than a toddler I should show a litttle more modesty.


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## princesstutu

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
When someone starts feeling uncomfortable with it.

For some this means, never. Others will be years later.


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## MusicianDad

I agree with "when someone starts feeling uncomfortable". As it stands, DD won't even hug DH or I if we don't have a shirt on and DS loves to cuddle up skin to skin. The only person who won't do that with him is DD, which is fine with us.


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## JSerene

For those who think skin-to-skin past toddlerhood is inappropriate, what about kids who nurse past this age? My dd nursed until she was 4yrs old. I know others who have nursed beyond that. If we defend a persons right to breastfeed beyond beyond infancy and understand without a doubt that this is not at all sexual, couldn't we also understand that skin-to-skin time, yes even naked time, is not sexual?


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## urchin_grey

DS is 5 (a very tiny, immature 5, if that makes a difference) and we don't go out of our way for "skin to skin" time or anything, but he doesn't exactly like to wear clothes, so it happens.







He knows that going somewhere = getting (and staying) dressed, but the minute we're back home, he's pulling his clothes off. So yeah, we do still get a lot of skin to skin time, particularly at night since we co-sleep. I'm not going to fight it because neither DP or I are uncomfortable with it (in fact, its not something I've even questioned or put any thought into until this thread) and DS has some delays (mostly social) and has zero concept of modesty. Or at least, about as much as your average toddler.









So I guess the short answer is - as long as both parties are comfy with it, I don't see a problem.


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## One_Girl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSerene* 
For those who think skin-to-skin past toddlerhood is inappropriate, what about kids who nurse past this age? My dd nursed until she was 4yrs old. I know others who have nursed beyond that. If we defend a persons right to breastfeed beyond beyond infancy and understand without a doubt that this is not at all sexual, couldn't we also understand that skin-to-skin time, yes even naked time, is not sexual?

I nursed my dd until she was three and a half and it had nothing to do with being uncomfortable being cuddling my child naked. I don't see it as a sexual thing, I am just very uncomfortable with it and won't do it. If you want to do it then do, but there is no need to assume that those of us who don't view it as a sexual thing. Some people are more comfortable clothed.

I do think that parents should pay careful attention to their kids comfort level to ensure they aren't continuing to do something that their child is uncomfortable doing. Kids don't always tell us that they don't like something we are doing, but that doesn't mean they are comfortable continuing to do it so I think it is important to be aware of their feelings.


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## Camile Rynd

My son is 2 1/2 and he is pretty much as naked as possible at all times! We are not shy about snuggling/showering/playing/relaxing together naked! We don't have an air conditioner, and there are whole days that we just lounge in our underwear. I can't see how this is anything more than being human together. We have rules about where hands can go, so there are certainly boundaries.








We do not attach arbitrary importance to being clothed, and I don't think that snuggling your child skin to skin until they are beyond infancy is strange or unhealthy. I think it's normal. I think it's normal to see your parents naked. I have memories of my parents being naked, and my DH has memories of his mom naked! He even sort of waxes poetic about her gardening naked!









Good luck and snuggle on!


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## ShadowMoon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
When someone starts feeling uncomfortable with it.

For some this means, never. Others will be years later.
These are my thoughts exactly. In my family, being naked is no different then being clothed.


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## AbbieB

I just want to say that my kids are 2 and 6 and we still have skin to skin contact on a daily basis.

Do I strip off my shirt and cuddle them between my breasts like a newborn? No. But I have no problem sleeping naked next to my naked child in the family bed or snuggling and nursing while still naked after a bath or shower.

Skin to skin contact feels good. It's a sensual thing, not a sexual thing.


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## ramama

I don't think skin-to-skin has to mean completely naked. We don't have AC, so sometimes I sleep in my undies. My DDs never wear pajamas. Never. Even in the dead of winter. So yes, we do a lot of skin-to-skin. They are 6yo and 4yo. I guess I never thought of it as skin-to-skin, but I guess it is. I just saw it as "normal" for us LOL!


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## lovingmommyhood

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I nursed my dd until she was three and a half and it had nothing to do with being uncomfortable being cuddling my child naked. I don't see it as a sexual thing, I am just very uncomfortable with it and won't do it. If you want to do it then do, but there is no need to assume that those of us who don't view it as a sexual thing. Some people are more comfortable clothed.

I do think that parents should pay careful attention to their kids comfort level to ensure they aren't continuing to do something that their child is uncomfortable doing. Kids don't always tell us that they don't like something we are doing, but that doesn't mean they are comfortable continuing to do it so I think it is important to be aware of their feelings.

I agree! I don't appreciate the insinuation that those of us who are uncomfortable with it must view it as sexual or are wrong in some way.


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## loraxc

I have a lot of friends who were raised by hippie parents, and some have definitely said that their parents were constantly naked around them after they felt comfortable with it, and that the memory of some of the childhood nudity was embarrassing to them. Now, you could say that this is just a sad effect of living in a body-negative culture or whatever, and it probably is, but you know...it is what it is.

Quote:

Malign contact can easily be achieved through clothes, just as benign contact can be achieved in any state of dress or undress.
I don't agree with your second statement. Nude 13-yo-boy lying on top of a nude parent? No, even if the intent is benign. It's not appropriate, IMO. Seeing each other naked is really different, but I am not comfortable with a child's nude genitals intimately contacting the parent's nude body after approximately potty training age. I'm not saying such a parent has evil intent, but it could be very confusing for some kids, the memory could be disturbing, and it is far outside of our culture's norm, so much so that CPS could indeed be involved. I also want it to be clear to my kids that those areas are private and only for them to touch at this age.


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## GoBecGo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I don't agree with your second statement. Nude 13-yo-boy lying on top of a nude parent? No, even if the intent is benign. It's not appropriate, IMO. Seeing each other naked is really different, but I am not comfortable with a child's nude genitals intimately contacting the parent's nude body after approximately potty training age. I'm not saying such a parent has evil intent, but it could be very confusing for some kids, the memory could be disturbing, and it is far outside of our culture's norm, so much so that CPS could indeed be involved. I also want it to be clear to my kids that those areas are private and only for them to touch at this age.

Sorry, i must have missed the parents on this thread who are laying naked with their teenage boys naked on top of them!







The vast majority of those with kids over 6 or so here have said mainly THEIR CHILD has decided to limit even skin-to-skin contact? Referring to a teenager and parent having intimate genital contact is completely over-the-top in the context everyone else is discussing here. I am a parent who is very free about nudity and i NEVER have cause to have my naked 4yo have genital contact with me AT ALL. To suggest so is pretty offensive IMO. Where on this thread is anyone talking about having intimate genital contact with their child?

I was sexually abused for seven years and i could tell by the way my abuser held my hand what he was thinking and going to do. Equally my mother would snuggle me semi-naked in bed during those years and i have nothing but good memories of those times because her touch was loving, not malign. Benign touch is defined by mutual intent and comfort-level, not by state of dress or place on body. If i lovingly hug my DD, naked or clothed, and she receives the hug joyfully and feels loved, that is very different than if i hug my DD, naked or not, for some sort of twisted thrill, or even for a simple hug but in the knowledge that i am forcing her.

Quote:

I do think that parents should pay careful attention to their kids comfort level to ensure they aren't continuing to do something that their child is uncomfortable doing. Kids don't always tell us that they don't like something we are doing, but that doesn't mean they are comfortable continuing to do it so I think it is important to be aware of their feelings.
Is it not equally important then to be sure that one isn't STOPPING something one's child still needs? i.e. skin-to-skin contact? If it's possible that kids aren't saying "no" when they want to, isn't it equally possible kids are silently missing out when actually they'd rather not give up the skin to skin?


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## meemee

oh boy - this thread has been very interesting but lets not let it get out of hand.

i think loraxc was not talking about someone saying 13 year old here, but she was just using it as what would be extreme for her.

in a way i kinda started it coz i said i sleep many times with no clothes on with my almost 8 year old who, btw is still nursing, and we snuggle. now we are not doing it for skin to skin. we are not even doing it ifkwim. its more a natural progression.

i thank those who are watching out for what i write onlilne, but i am incognito. no one here or at any other place even knows my real name.

but one reason i always come out with stuff that most society does not 'approve' of is because there are others like me who hold back and by me speaking up - i give voice to them.

i have always been like that. even in school. the reason why most of my proffs like me so much - because i always bring up the minority viewpoint and question the popular beliefs. in any class.

however i do want to say i grew up seeing my mom naked. i still see her naked. she feels uncomfortable in front of my dd so gdd has never seen gma naked. but i dont mind it. neither is my dd self concious about what we do.

however i DO understand people who are uncomfortable with my level of comfort. to each his own - as long as you dont interfere with my life. its like i grew up with spicy food and find mcdonald's really bland. and i have friends who grew up midwest and cant handle my food. when they come over to eat of course i dont make them my kinda food. i find a happy medium with homemade hamburgers which they love.


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## MusicianDad

For the record meemee, I slept in my dad's bed of and on until I was about 11. Neither of use have ever worn more than underwear to bed and I have no embarrassed or uncomfortable memories about it.


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## homemademom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I will still hug my 2yo if he happens to be naked, but I don't like, get naked and get him naked and cuddle! I also don't hang around the house naked myself, so it just doesn't come up.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maela* 
I would say after weaning, which _for me_ is 2-3 years.

but I completely understand other people having different opinions.


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## JSerene

One_Girl said:


> I nursed my dd until she was three and a half and it had nothing to do with being uncomfortable being cuddling my child naked. I don't see it as a sexual thing, I am just very uncomfortable with it and won't do it. If you want to do it then do, but there is no need to assume that those of us who don't view it as a sexual thing. Some people are more comfortable clothed.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Good point. I didn't see it until you said it


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## MissMaegie'sMama

I don't think there's an age where it becomes inappropriate. I think it depends on the comfort zone between the parent and child. What's important is that neither person involved is being coerced into cudding/snuggling, regardless of whether they are naked or clothed.


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## earthmama369

We don't have many naked taboos in our house, but if you're thinking about skin-to-skin in medical terms, I think the benefits are probably highest during the first three months or so of infancy. Skin-to-skin, the way I think of the phrase, is meant to help a newborn regulate their central nervous system, breathing, heart rate, etc. They do that on their own pretty quickly. That said, there's nothing wrong with a good cuddle when a kiddo needs comfort.


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## Heavenly

Okay I am editing this out because I don't want to be misunderstood and be accused of attacking someone - but I will say some people need to learn proper boundaries and might want to have a talk with a child worker.


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## mammal_mama

I agree with those who say that skin-to-skin, whether naked or whatever, should continue for as long as, and in whatever forms that, both parent and child want it and are comfortable with it.

GoBecGo, you make such a great point that we as parents should be sensitive to our children's needs and not be pulling away the skin-to-skin if the child is still wanting it.

meemee, I love your posts so much! As an anthropology student, I think you bring such unique perspectives to parenting. I loved the anthropology courses I took in college, but sadly opted for the more "practical" major of social work.

Honestly, I think that all social work students should be required to do extensive study of anthropology, just to broaden their perspective on how the majority of the world's families are living. Then there wouldn't be so much freaking out about things like nudity, sleep-sharing, and full-term breastfeeding.

Consider what is "fully-clothed" for many bush people or Yequana Indians, for example. Even in some European countries, it's still common for young children to run around outdoors completely naked.

The problem is, our American culture associates all nudity and sensual pleasure with sex. It's so sad because as GoBecGo mentioned, many girls start having sex before they are ready, just to get that pleasurable skin-to-skin contact.

I can't help wondering if more children would be content to delay sex until they were ready, if they lived in a culture where they could enjoy the sensual pleasures of being close to someone and being caressed, without it being associated with sex.


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## meemee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
That said, there's nothing wrong with a good cuddle when a kiddo needs comfort.









eh? just kids?!!!!







just joking. i think we ALL could use a good cuddle when we need comfort. and when that cuddle comes from two tiny hands saying mommy its going to be ok ... i cant describe the feeling. it is like meeting god or something. something deeply profound.


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## meemee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Okay I am editing this out because I don't want to be misunderstood and be accused of attacking someone - but I will say some people need to learn proper boundaries and might want to have a talk with a child worker.

Heavenly i would totally appreciate it if you DID speak your mind. i know exactly where you are coming from. i know you dont mean it as a personal attack. you want to take care and protect people.

so yes i would love to hear your views - because i know its coming from love and concern esp. since you are studying it now and it is v. alive for you.

what i am saying is yes i recognise that. i am aware of that. but i am not going to hide behind that you know. i am not going to follow what i think is 'wrong' on a public board where i have annonymity. i mean yeah i am all for dd running around naked outside. but i stopped her at 18 months because of the exact concerns you voiced earlier.

ooooooooooh MAMA_MAMMAL i couldnt agree with you MORE!!! absolutely all doctors, social workers, teachers should at least take one class in cultural anthropology. i would go as far as high schools should be taught that too. there would be sooo much respect rather than teasing i would imagine. and anthropology is not just about native society but to have respect for others who are 'different' like the LGBT community, goth, nerds, homeless. they too are cultural groups. of course no one needs them more than govt workers and CPS.

i mean a child running around naked is shocking but women in skimpy skin tight clothes is not.

one of the things i am planning to do if i ever get breast cancer and have to have both my breasts removed, i plan to walk around town with no shirt on and see if i break the rules of nudity. though i think its nipple showing that is not allowed right?!!! not sure. but then i would have nipples on my chest just like a man and not on breasts like a woman.

sorry yeah!!! i am wierd!!


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## EdnaMarie

We usually get underwear on right out of the shower so completely naked skin to skin hasn't come up, and I'm not sure how I'd feel, but let's say mommy in undies and kids also in undies, either after bath time or whatever, cuddling in bed is not weird at all.

I am not sure where a naked parent and child would come up after the kids hit adolescence, though. I would have a different opinion of that, because I do think post-pubescent nudity can be sexual and even in the least-clothed cultures they still cover their genitals to some extent. However, hugging your teenagers, even if the male has no shirt on, or you're wearing shorts and tanks? Sitting close on the couch with your daughter's head on your (mom's) bare legs with you in boxers? I think that is fine and normal.

I have hugged my cousin... okay, it was a light hug... but still... when he was wearing no shirt. We were adults. It didn't feel odd. And we're a pretty modest family, but it was hot! I MEAN THE WEATHER WAS HOT. Not my cousin.  Ugh. He's not hot at all, actually, probably why it didn't feel uncomfortable. He is pasty!


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## BunnySlippers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 

one of the things i am planning to do if i ever get breast cancer and have to have both my breasts removed, i plan to walk around town with no shirt on and see if i break the rules of nudity. though i think its nipple showing that is not allowed right?!!! not sure. but then i would have nipples on my chest just like a man and not on breasts like a woman.

sorry yeah!!! i am wierd!!

It is completey legal to walk around topless whether you are a man or woman.
You will see (not very often) topless women in our city.

We even have some students arranging a topless event to help keep briinging the issue to a more comfortable level for all.


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## MusicianDad

I







topfree laws!

And that's why I love living in BC. If a man can go topless, than a woman can go topless. Has it been challenged by the other side? Yes. Has it be upheld in the court of law? Yes!


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## meemee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
It is completey legal to walk around topless whether you are a man or woman.
You will see (not very often) topless women in our city.

We even have some students arranging a topless event to help keep briinging the issue to a more comfortable level for all.

aaahhh memories.

i actually researched this due to a thread here at MDC.

and the answer is not that simple.

it is left to the discretion of the people around you. if they complain then you have to put a shirt on. the reason why i never see a topless woman on the streets here ever.


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## GoBecGo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
aaahhh memories.

i actually researched this due to a thread here at MDC.

and the answer is not that simple.

it is left to the discretion of the people around you. if they complain then you have to put a shirt on. the reason why i never see a topless woman on the streets here ever.

But is it that? Or is it that if a man wears no shirt it's a hot day and he is happy to tan but if a woman wears no shirt she's "saying something" about herself and her morality? (not that i believe that, but that is the perception) I have been cat-called for running in a crop-top (with a sports bra under it), when men can jog topless without a second look on a hot day. When i was cat-called i was pushing my 3yo DD in a jogger, and wearing full length running tights (and it was a hot hot day). There were people in shops wearing less than me, but i was "flaunting" myself apparently. I LOVE the idea of taking my scarred breastless chest out in public too, that's a great idea! That's a super feminist thing to do, especially since some find scars from such surgery so depressing and shameful. I love the idea of wearing both our femininity and our bodies AS THEY ARE.









Heavenly i have been very outspoken here, so maybe it's me you're worried about offending. Please speak out, this is a lively discussion but it wouldn't be a discussion at all if half of the people here felt to concerned to actually say what they're thinking!

I do understand that boundaries must be respected when it comes to ANY kind of contact, but i also know little kids screaming out for a bit of physical affection, whose parents think it's "weird" to even cuddle (fully clothed) past the age of about 3. I really worry those children will fall prey to abusers because i fear they will accept loving human contact on ANY TERMS. Abusers can see the signs of a child who is untouched, or have no open dialogue with their parents about bodies, sexuality, etc. And that to me is the danger of NOT being physically available to one's kids. And i guess that's what i'm hoping to be - available. Not pushing anything on anyone, but very open and approachable so that my kids never have to go to someone else to seek contact when they have a need of it.

ETA - i've just been talking to my dad about this (my dad, who i have seen naked and who was with me when i gave birth in June). We were thinking perhaps the reason some on this thread think skin to skin is ok as long as all involved is ok, and some think that the kids CAN'T really be ok with it and there must be some sort of (however subtle) coercion from a parent going on, is cultural...?

I mean, i grew up with my folks being nude around me, and hugs were available, whenever you wanted them. My parents didn't stress about nudity - they didn't encourage or discourage it. I became "private" about my body at about 11 when puberty was in motion, and became more open again when i was about 19 or 20, when i was used to my adult body. My parents were relaxed, i sensed no stress around the situation when nudity was involved. It was ok, it was totally normal to me. I am not damaged by it because i have not internalised the idea that one COULD be damaged by it. Likewise my children haven't, and thus i am confident that i am not traumatising them.

However if i had grown up in a house where nudity was not done, and where everyone was relatively anxious and careful NOT to be seen nude, i'm sure i would, as a child, internalise that anxiety and care and feel genuine trauma if that family taboo was breached and i did see my parents naked.

Like we are relaxed and unconcerned about the DD's seeing us naked, and they are the same, but we are careful NOT to have them see us DTD, and i'm sure if they did our obvious embarrassment over it and how we'd behave WOULD make our kids realise that a boundary had been crossed and thus they might remember it as an adult and cringe.

Obviously it's more complicated than that, because sometimes our friends might tell us how something is not acceptable - thus a child who grew up with nude-and-casual-about-it folks might grow up to feel it was improper.

But is this maybe why some on the thread (me included) can see how nudity or skin to skin with older children CAN be totally harmless, and others suspect that however ok our kids seem there MUST be a problem we are unwilling or unable to see?

Food for thought - off to have Food to Eat now


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## canadianhippie

We need to get some Europeans in here to help us through this one. I thought even men sleeping in the buck with other men wasnt an issue through some countries in Europe, North America would say that is gay behaviour. Look at even the Inuit in Canada, traditional hunters sleeping together in the Arctic, First nations in our history. These all these examples of such behaviour of all ages, it didn't represent what it does here.

MusicianDad's comment sparked the thought when he spoke of fathers and sons or other men sleeping together, it has zero representation for any sort of sexual behaviour, in history.

So it's whether your the type or person, or European







who feels history can teach us a great example of natural family living...or not


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## EdnaMarie

I'm in Germany... and honestly, though a lot of people will sleep naked with a spouse and a young child, "men sleeping in the buck with other men" only happens between two men (maybe three...) when the men are gay. I asked. "Maybe camping, they might go swimming naked, or in the gym locker room..." But if they are sleeping in the same tent naked, they're not spooning or anything.

They were pretty amazed that anyone would think that is the case. Maybe I just know really Puritanical Germans? But they found the suggestion hilarious.

I think we mustn't confuse different standards of modesty with the possibility that the genitals could be considered not sexual at all. That is not to say children can never touch their parents while naked. But we are sexual beings, period. It's not about it "not being sexual". It's that there's much more to a person than that.


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## loraxc

Quote:

Sorry, i must have missed the parents on this thread who are laying naked with their teenage boys naked on top of them! The vast majority of those with kids over 6 or so here have said mainly THEIR CHILD has decided to limit even skin-to-skin contact? Referring to a teenager and parent having intimate genital contact is completely over-the-top in the context everyone else is discussing here. I am a parent who is very free about nudity and i NEVER have cause to have my naked 4yo have genital contact with me AT ALL. To suggest so is pretty offensive IMO. Where on this thread is anyone talking about having intimate genital contact with their child?
You said benign contact could occur in any form of undress. To me this would include a parent's naked body contacting the naked genitals of a child. I'm not talking about the parent actually intentionally touching with hands, but, for instance, a nude child genitals ending up in close contact with the parent's nude body (whatever area) while sleeping.

I think it's very possible to be cuddly with your child and give that pleasant touch without there needing to be full nudity. That's what bothers me here, really, is nude genitals.


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## 2xy

I never went out of my way to expose more skin for baby to connect with. I'm small breasted, so the baby practically had to be plastered against my torso in order to nurse, anyway.

I like to wear clothes. It's not due to my upbringing....my parents were very comfortable with nudity, but even as a very small child I always wore panties at the very least. And I get cold easily and live in a part of the country where it's cool/cold most of the year. Going naked or minimally dressed is not part of who I am, and I sleep with clothing on, too.

A babe with just a diaper on, with bare arms cradling him, is getting plenty of skin.


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## canadianhippie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I'm in Germany... and honestly, though a lot of people will sleep naked with a spouse and a young child, "men sleeping in the buck with other men" only happens between two men (maybe three...) when the men are gay. I asked. "Maybe camping, they might go swimming naked, or in the gym locker room..." But if they are sleeping in the same tent naked, they're not spooning or anything.

They were pretty amazed that anyone would think that is the case. Maybe I just know really Puritanical Germans? But they found the suggestion hilarious.

I think we mustn't confuse different standards of modesty with the possibility that the genitals could be considered not sexual at all. That is not to say children can never touch their parents while naked. But we are sexual beings, period. It's not about it "not being sexual". It's that there's much more to a person than that.

Well when you made the suggestion to your friends did you see that the comment was regarding men in history all over the Europe, Canada, US, Africa etc? Not Modern Germany society? I was expressing the point of whether history can teach us natural family living and if were willing to uphold those values to our lives today.


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## GoBecGo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
You said benign contact could occur in any form of undress. To me this would include a parent's naked body contacting the naked genitals of a child. I'm not talking about the parent actually intentionally touching with hands, but, for instance, a nude child genitals ending up in close contact with the parent's nude body (whatever area) while sleeping.

I think it's very possible to be cuddly with your child and give that pleasant touch without there needing to be full nudity. That's what bothers me here, really, is nude genitals.

I have daughters, so i can't imagine how my child's genitals could come to be resting on me unless she straddled me, which wouldn't be possible in bed, since her leg under me would be painfully crushed by my rolling on it. My younger DD is in nappies, and my elder is far to big to sleep on top of anyone who is also hoping to sleep. But say i had a little boy and he was asleep and i was asleep and his genitals were against my back or hip....we are both asleep, how is this NOT benign? Malign contact is surely damaging contact, contact where the intention is NOT innocent or (as in the case of sleeping) absent - as in there IS no intention to touch, genitals or otherwise, if we are all asleep. What perceived harm is there in genitals touching naked adult skin when all concerned are asleep? What damage will ensue? I have slept (not naked) next to friends both male and female in bed, and occasionally we have rolled against one another in our sleep, and IME one or both wake up, realise proximity, and roll away.

Is contact automatically malign if it involves genitals? Is my helping a child wipe after going to the loo, or putting cream on sore genitals, or cleaning up during a nappy change, or any of the other times i might need to touch their genitals automatically malign and harmful? And if my child is made to sit fully clothed on the fully clothed lap of a sexually aroused man who is aroused BY them sitting there, is that benign because no genitals are touching skin?

Is it the idea that the child will be somehow harmed if his genitals touch someone else's skin when he is sleeping, or that you don't want your skin to be touched by your kid's genitals when YOU are asleep, even if you won't know about it after?


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## EdnaMarie

GoBecGo, I think they are talking about much older children than ours (mine are 2006 and 2009). That's when it gets... unusual.


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## MusicianDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
GoBecGo, I think they are talking about much older children than ours (mine are 2006 and 2009). That's when it gets... unusual.











I was never damaged by possible accidental touching of my genitals to my dad when I was 10 or 11. There was nothing sexual in sharing a bed with my dad, naked or not. It was just me and him sleeping. Absolutely no confusion on my part, and none on his either.


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## GoBecGo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
GoBecGo, I think they are talking about much older children than ours (mine are 2006 and 2009). That's when it gets... unusual.

But i don't see anyone here saying their older kids DO want to be totally naked with them. My family was REALLY open about nudity and i still became "shy" about my body and theirs when puberty hit around 11 or 12. Actually puberty began about 10, but i sort of grew into my self-consciousness.

I would be really really surprised if my kids wanted, as teenagers, to be naked with me. Really surprised. There's no-one here saying "oh my 15yo keeps asking for skin-to-skin" - i just don't think it's likely. I think what's likely is that kids will naturally get to an age where the incest taboo becomes relevant (when their hormones begin to surge since it is as sexually aware beings we reject those we know as our close relatives - incest LAWS are mainly there to protect children because they DON'T have the disgust reaction to those relationships) and THEY will end nude-type contact themselves. I know i did. I don't know anyone who was having nude contact with parents as teens except those who were being abused.


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## WaitingForKiddos

My Ds is all of 4 weeks old so I have no idea what I'm talking about but I admit that nursing or just holding him when I'm naked and he's naked is just so lovely. So innocent and....the feeling I imagine I would have had if I birthed him vaginally (I had a cesarean) and was in an environment that supported skin-to-skin. It's almost that same sniff of a fresh newborn head rush for me.

I think there's a real need to look at those yummy hormones that release when we are skin-to-skin with loved ones.


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## meemee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
But i don't see anyone here saying their older kids DO want to be totally naked with them.

i think the point is honoring diversity - even if its completely different than mine. THAT is my major point. we all know our limitations. our own comfort levels. do we need to apply those same standards to others?!!!

no one here is saying that but there might be some families where nudity is a way of being. whether 5, 10, 15 or even 25. some families suddenly do realise omg i am naked or she is naked. some never do. so if we know a 15 year old eating dinner naked with her father are we supposed to jump to conclusion. if i hear her sleeping with her father the hair on my back is going to rise up but am i going to make a judgement call based only on that fact.

nudity is a sense of being. i cant imagine anyone conciously even noting it.

we saw our mom naked all our lives. it really actually helped my bro. beginning of his teen he got all embarassed seeing mom naked. not that she lounged around naked. she would be on her way to take a shower and realise she had forgotten to mop. so she would quickly mop naked and go back to her shower. well seh told him to get over it. and later on he admitted how much that helped him deal with the subject. he was never embarrased with the memory of seeing my mom naked. but with her 'shushing him' he realised that nudity was no big deal.

its funny. my ex now is v. mindful in front of dd. dd tells me 'ma i dont know why daddy makes such a big deal in front of me. i know he's uncomfortable and i can understand that. but why is he so. its just a naked body.' she was even shocked when he went to see the bodies revealed exhibition with her and refused to use the word penis or vagina. she spent some time looking at the nerves coming out of both of them at the exhibition.


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## EdnaMarie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 









I was never damaged by possible accidental touching of my genitals to my dad when I was 10 or 11. There was nothing sexual in sharing a bed with my dad, naked or not. It was just me and him sleeping. Absolutely no confusion on my part, and none on his either.

That's pre-puberty, parent of the same sex, and if you read below, there ARE people talking about the (however unlikely) scenario of an adolescent walking around naked or desiring naked cuddles.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
That's pre-puberty, parent of the same sex, and if you read below, there ARE people talking about the (however unlikely) scenario of an adolescent walking around naked or desiring naked cuddles.

Could you find the actual quote talking about adolescents desiring naked cuddles? I must have missed it. I know some adoslescents do desire naked cuddles with other adolescents -- but I've never heard of any desiring naked cuddles with parents.


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## mammal_mama

Edna Marie, Maybe this is the quote you were talking about?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Nude 13-yo-boy lying on top of a nude parent? No, even if the intent is benign. It's not appropriate, IMO.

I get the impression that this poster was actually disagreeing with those those who think nudity is fine as long as both parent and child are comfortable with it. I don't recall anyone here who is comfortable with nudity, saying that they have 13-yo nude boys lying on top of them while they are nude.

This seems to me like the same sort of extreme scenario that gets introduced when people discuss child-led weaning -- you know, the "what if your child is 30 and you are 60 and she still wants to nurse from you?"-kind of scenario that you never hear of happening IRL, but whenever some people talk about being child-led in some area, some other people always have these weird pictures popping up in their minds.

Still, I actually think it's good to get this stuff out here and work through it with our loving MDC virtual-family.


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## EdnaMarie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Could you find the actual quote talking about adolescents desiring naked cuddles? I must have missed it. I know some adoslescents do desire naked cuddles with other adolescents -- but I've never heard of any desiring naked cuddles with parents.


Quote:

no one here is saying that but there might be some families where nudity is a way of being. whether 5, 10, 15 or even 25. some families suddenly do realise omg i am naked or she is naked. some never do. so if we know a 15 year old eating dinner naked with her father are we supposed to jump to conclusion. if i hear her sleeping with her father the hair on my back is going to rise up but am i going to make a judgement call based only on that fact.
It's the hypothetical, which I find disturbing.

It's telling that nobody actually knows anyone who has done this, or isn't posting here!


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## MusicianDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
That's pre-puberty, parent of the same sex, and if you read below, there ARE people talking about the (however unlikely) scenario of an adolescent walking around naked or desiring naked cuddles.

Thank you for decided when I did or didn't start puberty.









Walking around naked? I did that until I was 15 or 16. Really. Just me and my dad so why does it matter? It's not like I don't have anything he hasn't seen. Really, there are plenty of cultures where family members see each other naked on a regular basis, or see people they don't know naked... Really, nudity doesn't become sexual just because someone hit puberty.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
It's the hypothetical, which I find disturbing.

Well, even in meemee's hypothetical example that you quoted, she didn't say anything about adolescents desiring naked cuddles.










Quote:

It's telling that nobody actually knows anyone who has done this, or isn't posting here!
It's telling me that it's highly unusual for adolescents to desire naked cuddles from their parents. What is it telling you?


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
That. I'm so glad I don't have any memories of my dad naked.

i have weird memories of my mother because she was crazy about us kids touching each other while naked. us kids werent allowed to bathe together or play in a pool naked or anything. it was weird.

but she did walk around naked after showers, we all did. And I have no weird memories about that at all. i can remember my mom changing in front of me as a teen and its not weird.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
THANK you! Same here. I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

Naked can just be naked, and skin to skin contact with children is a loving thing.

i think the issue comes up when people havent worked through their OWN nakedness issues. Im not a huge naked person. I dont particularly like the way my body "hangs" at the moment. lol. But i really cannot see the shame in it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
Well said.

I have one memory. That was me about age 8 going into my parents bathroom for something, which went by my dads closet. He was naked, getting a pair of underwear, and turned and SCREAMED, I mean really screamed like an enraged monster about to attack "Get the H*LL OUT OF HERE!" I was so scared I didn't see anything, and I was really confused for a long time why he would be so enraged. What could I have seen? His penis? So what? What is so special or unique, or good or bad, sexual or not, beautiful or dirty.... about that. I'm sure his is just like everyone else's penis. I think it affected me in the way I thought about it, and decided how everyone's body is actually quite normal, natural, and well, generic.

I can so totally see this happening when my kids are older.

reactions can be intense

i have a memory of my mom screaming at me for pinching my own nipples when I was about 4 or 5 and it really changed how I perceived my body until I was much older and could work through it all as an adult.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Thank you for decided when I did or didn't start puberty.









Walking around naked? I did that until I was 15 or 16. Really. Just me and my dad so why does it matter? It's not like I don't have anything he hasn't seen. Really, there are plenty of cultures where family members see each other naked on a regular basis, or see people they don't know naked... Really, nudity doesn't become sexual just because someone hit puberty.

exactly this.

i dont even understand how nakedness is inappropriate ever. in swim class in high school we were all naked with each other!

in my early 20s ive slept in beds with roommates in the summer pretty much naked and we were NOT sexual with each other.

people need to get over this whole nakedness/touching = SEXUAL.

intent needs to be there. without intent to engage in sexual activity its not sexual.

no one freaks out over a 15 year old boy and his mom hugging at the beach, or taking a pic together with their arms around each other.

why? bc their "genitals" are covered?

i think that seeing a situation as inappropriate simply based on the state of undress is sad.

THAT said, we dont cuddle naked. lol

not because of weirdness with it... but we tend to keep the house at about 70- and it drops to about 55 at night and everyone would be cold.


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## loraxc

Quote:

Malign contact is surely damaging contact, contact where the intention is NOT innocent or (as in the case of sleeping) absent - as in there IS no intention to touch, genitals or otherwise, if we are all asleep. What perceived harm is there in genitals touching naked adult skin when all concerned are asleep? What damage will ensue? I have slept (not naked) next to friends both male and female in bed, and occasionally we have rolled against one another in our sleep, and IME one or both wake up, realise proximity, and roll away.

Is contact automatically malign if it involves genitals? Is my helping a child wipe after going to the loo, or putting cream on sore genitals, or cleaning up during a nappy change, or any of the other times i might need to touch their genitals automatically malign and harmful? And if my child is made to sit fully clothed on the fully clothed lap of a sexually aroused man who is aroused BY them sitting there, is that benign because no genitals are touching skin?
Obviously if all parties are asleep and don't register it, it's benign. But IME, children become aware of pleasure emanating from genitals pretty early. If a child has an innocent (as in, parent not intentionally involved) but pleasurable experience rubbing up against or otherwise intimately contacting his/her genitals with a parent's body, which I think is much more likely when sleeping nude and cuddling, it could be a confusing memory. I could certainly see my 2yo son waking up in bed with me with an erection and trying to rub on me. He clearly knows what the deal is there and in fact he has asked me to rub it, so why wouldn't he rub on me in bed? He wouldn't remember, of course, so whatever, but an older child might.

My own DD needed some anti-yeast cream on her vulva at 4 and would not let me put it on. She also does not want me to watch her in the bathroom (this rule does not apply to me--she still walks in on me, which I don't care about). I am happy to see that the message that those parts are private has registered. I believe that a child who lives in a house where adult-child contact with the naked genitals is considered normal and benign, even if it IS, could end up not registering some more subtle forms of abuse. Even if the experience was just as *physically innocent* as your sleeping with your own child, would you want an uncle or a family friend sleeping naked with your child? What if he/she said, what, you do this at home with mom, right?

And no, of course abuse doesn't have to include nude genitals to be abuse.

BTW, I don't really think anyone here is cuddling with their nude teenagers. However, I think the tween age is getting kind of gray for nude cuddling, myself, and the statement was that ALL kinds of contact between nude family members, presumably of ANY age, is perfectly fine as long as intent is benign.


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Obviously if all parties are asleep and don't register it, it's benign. But IME, children become aware of pleasure emanating from genitals pretty early. If a child has an innocent (as in, parent not intentionally involved) but pleasurable experience rubbing up against or otherwise intimately contacting his/her genitals with a parent's body, which I think is much more likely when sleeping nude and cuddling, it could be a confusing memory. I could certainly see my 2yo son waking up in bed with me with an erection and trying to rub on me. He clearly knows what the deal is there and in fact he has asked me to rub it, so why wouldn't he rub on me in bed? He wouldn't remember, of course, so whatever, but an older child might.

My own DD needed some anti-yeast cream on her vulva at 4 and would not let me put it on. She also does not want me to watch her in the bathroom (this rule does not apply to me--she still walks in on me, which I don't care about). I am happy to see that the message that those parts are private has registered. I believe that a child who lives in a house where adult-child contact with the naked genitals is considered normal and benign, even if it IS, could end up not registering some more subtle forms of abuse. Even if the experience was just as *physically innocent* as your sleeping with your own child, would you want an uncle or a family friend sleeping naked with your child? What if he/she said, what, you do this at home with mom, right?

And no, of course abuse doesn't have to include nude genitals to be abuse.

BTW, I don't really think anyone here is cuddling with their nude teenagers. However, I think the tween age is getting kind of gray for nude cuddling, myself, and the statement was that ALL kinds of contact between nude family members, presumably of ANY age, is perfectly fine as long as intent is benign.


dont you think though that 2 & 4 are pretty young to be worried about those issues? what I mean is, 2 seems young to be rubbing genitals on people for stimulation and 4 seems to be pretty young to not want to let their own mother apply medication, I would think. Maybe not.

i dont know, as I only have girls. But any sort of sexual touch hasnt seemed to register in our house at all. maybe boys are different.

my 5 yo still asks for help in the bathroom sometimes because she cant get "clean" enough. I have never seen my 2 year old be at all interested in anything going on as far as "pleasure" goes. neither of my kids really see their genitals as "private areas". They would totally not let anyone touch them though. They wouldnt let just any adult undress them or help them in the bathroom either. Not because we have taught them so, but because in their entire lives, no one but us has ever helped them shower or go to the bathroom... not even grandparents.

But when I had my son, both girls took on an incredible fascination with penis'. they think they are amazing. Its all they talk about- "look at his penis!' "penis" baby has a cute little penis" and so forth. its been difficult to teach them that we cant just touch things that interest us because they belong to other people without shaming the body parts... because no one ever yells- "dont touch that elbow!"

probably off topic now entirely.


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## loraxc

Quote:

what I mean is, 2 seems young to be rubbing genitals on people for stimulation and 4 seems to be pretty young to not want to let their own mother apply medication, I would think. Maybe not.
I think you are going to get a lot of replies about little boys and their penises.







Trust me, they find them early. DD was later to figure this out, but she was masturbating by 4. She also has been taught not to allow others to touch her genitals (except a doctor) since the age when she became independent in the bathroom. Am I concerned??? No. Not sure what you're implying. DD is a normal little boy and DD is a normal little girl.


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I think you are going to get a lot of replies about little boys and their penises.







Trust me, they find them early. DD was later to figure this out, but she was masturbating by 4. She also has been taught not to allow others to touch her genitals (except a doctor) since the age when she became independent in the bathroom. Am I concerned??? No. Not sure what you're implying. DD is a normal little boy and DD is a normal little girl.

no no no. i wasnt implying anything.

at all.

just the reverse. Im saying that even in the broad scope, even considering that your dd may have found her ownership earlier than another- that a child as young as 2, 3, 4 or 5 is not too old for a naked cuddle- generally speaking.... unless they exhibit behaviour that would make an otherwise comfortable parent then feel uncomfortable. kwim?

thats all.

I was trying to relate it back to the "whenever one party becomes uncomfortable with it"

i dont think I was clear enough.

sorry if I sounded like I was implying you should be concerned.... totally not my intention.

like i couldnt imagine thinking all 2 year olds are too old for skin to skin. but i could see how *i* would be uncomfortable laying skin to skin if i thought he would possibly do something to make me uncomfortable.

Id rather avoid that scenario, so that there isnt some situation that requires the "privates" convo at two.


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## Pumpkin_Pie

I slept topless with DS in just a diaper for the first six months of his life and it was the most blissfull six months of snuggling I have ever experienced. He is now 3.5 and we both pretty regularly sleep in the nude, or nearly so and there is absolutely no weirdness. He actually still gets super excited when I change my shirt or get dressed in the morning. He will ask to give my breasts hugs and kisses before I put them into a bra, and he just snuggles his head in between them.


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## GoBecGo

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Obviously if all parties are asleep and don't register it, it's benign. But IME, children become aware of pleasure emanating from genitals pretty early. If a child has an innocent (as in, parent not intentionally involved) but pleasurable experience rubbing up against or otherwise intimately contacting his/her genitals with a parent's body, which I think is much more likely when sleeping nude and cuddling, it could be a confusing memory. I could certainly see my 2yo son waking up in bed with me with an erection and trying to rub on me. He clearly knows what the deal is there and in fact he has asked me to rub it, so why wouldn't he rub on me in bed? He wouldn't remember, of course, so whatever, but an older child might.

My own DD needed some anti-yeast cream on her vulva at 4 and would not let me put it on. She also does not want me to watch her in the bathroom (this rule does not apply to me--she still walks in on me, which I don't care about). I am happy to see that the message that those parts are private has registered. I believe that a child who lives in a house where adult-child contact with the naked genitals is considered normal and benign, even if it IS, could end up not registering some more subtle forms of abuse. Even if the experience was just as *physically innocent* as your sleeping with your own child, would you want an uncle or a family friend sleeping naked with your child? What if he/she said, what, you do this at home with mom, right?

And no, of course abuse doesn't have to include nude genitals to be abuse.

BTW, I don't really think anyone here is cuddling with their nude teenagers. However, I think the tween age is getting kind of gray for nude cuddling, myself, and the statement was that ALL kinds of contact between nude family members, presumably of ANY age, is perfectly fine as long as intent is benign.

My DD1 (4yo) masturbates. She has done for about 2 years. I gently remind her that's something she does when she's alone







i guess i fail to see how that's related to sleeping naked...

My DD is pretty smart. She knows there is a big difference between Mama and her uncle (FWIW her uncle on my side sexually abused me for 7 years and she has never met him and will never be alone with him). It is really not hard to teach a child that nudity is something we save for a select few - for instance she sees that when FIL is coming over we all have to dressed. Her theoretical paedophile uncle would not KNOW to say "what you do it with mama right?" because it's not something everyone knows - why would i tell them what i wear in bed? She is well versed in what a tricky person might ask or do (show her their genitals, ask to see hers, want too many cuddles, talk about genitals too much, just give her a funny icky feeling even though she might not know why, and etc.) and what she should do (get away from them and tell mama, mama will ALWAYS believe her). She has had practice when the doctor asked her about her genitals when she had scratched herself and we were concerned about infection - she turned to me in the consultation room and said "mama he's talking about my genitals a lot, do you think he's tricky?" - doctor was very impressed. Another time on the bus she told me, of a drunk guy that was chatting to her (very inappropriately, i was livid!) "he made my tummy feel crawly" - we moved to another seat after i told him if he even LOOKED at her again i would make trouble for him.

If you acknowledge that abuse can occur even clothed, what if an abuser wanted to hold hands, hug or kiss your child? What if s/he wanted your child to sit on his/her lap and read a book together? Are you going to make sure never to do those things too so that it's not an "in" for abuse? Are we to teach our child that NO-ONE may have physical contact with them, to spare them the one kind of contact that is harmful? Abuse takes something wholesome that kids enjoy (physical contact) and twists it for the pleasure of the abuser. The answer is vigilance about who is around one's kids, not withdrawing all physical affection so the child will think it odd if they have ANY contact with another person.

It is possible to teach a child how to protect themselves from abuse without also having them "protect" themselves from healthy, loving affection.


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## loraxc

Quote:

just the reverse. Im saying that even in the broad scope, even considering that your dd may have found her ownership earlier than another- that a child as young as 2, 3, 4 or 5 is not too old for a naked cuddle- generally speaking.... unless they exhibit behaviour that would make an otherwise comfortable parent then feel uncomfortable. kwim?

thats all.

I was trying to relate it back to the "whenever one party becomes uncomfortable with it"

i dont think I was clear enough.

sorry if I sounded like I was implying you should be concerned.... totally not my intention.
Oh, okay. Gotcha. I guess, though, that I don't think DS is unusual?

Quote:

It is really not hard to teach a child that nudity is something we save for a select few - for instance she sees that when FIL is coming over we all have to dressed.
I guess my experience is that families who are relaxed about nudity have kids who are relaxed about nudity everywhere, not just at home. I know kids up to age 5 who still get naked randomly and in public (eg, at the beach, at a party). I don't think this is the worst thing ever, mind you. I think, however, that you sound more diligent about teaching boundaries than perhaps many families who sleep in the nude, for instance.

Quote:

The answer is vigilance about who is around one's kids, not withdrawing all physical affection so the child will think it odd if they have ANY contact with another person.
How is being in favor of avoiding contact with nude genitals being in favor of withdrawing all physical contact? Although, FWIW, no, I would not allow my child to sit on a strange man's lap.


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Oh, okay. Gotcha. I guess, though, *that I don't think DS is unusual?*


bolding mine. i dont think he is unusual either- just different than *my* 2 yo dd. and my dd is probably different than many other 2yo girls. all kids do things at different ages. like I said, I have no experience with boys, but I hear friends talk all the time about the differences... i shall soon learn with my little one here.









i also have the 5 year old that gets naked at the beach. I tend to ask them to stay clothed, because i have read enough threads here to make me uncomfortable about other parents approaching me







that and sand in the butt sounds uncomfortable.

my only point in saying that is that we are not naked sleepers, and we are not necessarily naked people.

we just have never had the "nakedness is inappropriate" conversation.

im really vigilant about letting my kids know their body is their own.

However, I do not shame their nakedness or their body parts. Ive raised them to know their WHOLE BODY is theirs. no one has the right to touch them at all unless they say its ok.

not their naked body- their body, kwim?

ive read enough about pedophiles to know that a kid in a parka can be just as "desirable" as a naked one. i seem to remember something where they reported about clothed kids at a park were more luring than naked ones at a water fountain.

cant remember where I read or watched that.

thats where I think people seem to not worry so much about naked cuddling. its that some people really do not see naked children and think = potential victim.


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## MusicianDad

You kids masturbate. Older kids masturbate. Adults and senior citizens masturbate. It's human nature. The only difference is that a 4 year old isn't thinking about sex when they do it, and they likely wont remember any specific episode of masturbation to make the sex ---> masturbation ----> parent in the room when they are older and turn it into sex ----> parent used as sex object.

As for molestation, many instances of sexual abuse happen through clothes in situations like what a PP mentioned. Sitting on the adults lap while they "enjoy" the contact. Excessive hugging, kissing, or touching through clothes. It doesn't have to be naked in bed together for it to be sexual abuse.

Finally, kids are actually capable of distinguishing between adults and situations and recognizing when something is appropriate or in appropriate. Personally I don't think a 5 year old getting naked at the beach is inappropriate, and I am not alone in that belief. That being said, a 5 year old that gets naked at the beach will still be able to tell the difference between "naked at the beach" and "naked in front of a weird guy who makes me uncomfortable in the privacy of someones house". We don't develop the alarm bell in out gut once we become adults, it's something that has been growing and (hopefully) well honed since we were little. That's why most kids go through a shy stage at least once, they are working through generalizations to acquire something more accurate.


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## loraxc

Quote:

Finally, kids are actually capable of distinguishing between adults and situations and recognizing when something is appropriate or in appropriate.
Sometimes. Not always. I think this is a very dangerous generalization. Sometimes kids are not going to realize till later that what they experienced was wrong. Touch feels good, as has been covered here. Not all abuse registers as wrong at the time.

Quote:

Ive raised them to know their WHOLE BODY is theirs. no one has the right to touch them at all unless they say its ok.
Hmm. But there is a world of difference between "Mrs. B touched me on the shoulder in math class and I didn't like that" and "Mrs. B touched me under my underwear."


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## MusicianDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 

Hmm. But there is a world of difference between "Mrs. B touched me on the shoulder in math class and I didn't like that" and "Mrs. B touched me under my underwear."

Not as much of a difference as one might think at first glance. Both are unwanted physical contact. Both are wrong. The only differences are the level of discomfort, the level of psychological damage, and the fact that one is criminal behaviour.

The whole body belongs to the person. Whether you touch someone on the shoulder, or on the genitals, unwanted physical contact is unwanted physical contact. DD knows that no one has a right to touch her genitals without her permission. She also knows that no one has a right to touch her head/shoulder/elbow/any other non-sexual body part without her permission.

Quote:

Sometimes. Not always. I think this is a very dangerous generalization. Sometimes kids are not going to realize till later that what they experienced was wrong. Touch feels good, as has been covered here. Not all abuse registers as wrong at the time.
I've had this conversation with quite a few survivors of abuse, the vast majority had some feeling that what was happening wasn't right. Those that didn't often hail from families where children had no personal boundaries because they weren't allowed to have them. Don't wanna hug grandma? Too bad, do it anyway. So the feeling that something is wrong didn't register right away.


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Hmm. But there is a world of difference between "Mrs. B touched me on the shoulder in math class and I didn't like that" and "Mrs. B touched me under my underwear."

there is a lot of difference between those two acts- however, i believe that my child would first of all, tell me right away under both circumstances...

there are children that "knew" certain behaviour was "inappropriate touching" and were too scared to say anything at the time to stop it.

knowing that certain behaviour is abusive does not stop the abuse. I think a lot of children who were abused didnt even realize it WAS abuse. the grooming period was long enough to not have triggered any "danger' flags. with my daughter- I have taught her that there are people out there- doctors, police, clergy included- that are not nice to children. That if anyone tries to get her alone in a room, that she should not go, etc etc. if she ever gets lost, she is to find a woman with children and give them my phone number.

i am lucky enough that I am with my children 100% of the time. I literally never leave. ever. i saw a movie in november while they slept. so I have never had to worry about not being within ear shot if someone tried something.

ive been at birthday parties where someones uncle was spending a bit too much time with the littles for my liking, or been in public when a creepy person set off my internal alarm.

9 times out of 10- my daughters triggers were also set off.

i chose to not teach her about "privates"- because i feel like that sets the genitalia up as some taboo thing to be hidden, revered...what have you.

so i think that this is so separate from nakedness. naked snuggling should stop when one of the parties feels uncomfortable doing so. not because they are being sexually triggered... but because they feel that they would rather not have their naked body touched by the other person.

i would like for the world to stop associating nakedness from sexuality so that innocence could stick around longer than a couple years. i would love for my daughter to be able to be free at the beach and nature. the fact that I have been trained by society to feel uncomfortable- not about molesters- about people calling cps or starting an argument or approaching me or my child in a way that is aggressive makes me sad.

once, at the park, a very large group of us were approached by an older woman telling us she had called the police and cps because a couple of the 3 year olds had gotten naked.

no police ever showed up- but thats insanity to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I've had this conversation with quite a few survivors of abuse, the vast majority had some feeling that what was happening wasn't right. Those that didn't often hail from families where children had no personal boundaries because they weren't allowed to have them. Don't wanna hug grandma? Too bad, do it anyway. So the feeling that something is wrong didn't register right away.


exactly. its about empowering them.

give them ownership of themselves and allow them to enforce their ownership.


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## meemee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I've had this conversation with quite a few survivors of abuse, the vast majority had some feeling that what was happening wasn't right. Those that didn't often hail from families where children had no personal boundaries because they weren't allowed to have them. Don't wanna hug grandma? Too bad, do it anyway. So the feeling that something is wrong didn't register right away.

as someone who is a survivor and someone who has volunteered with other survivors - there is so much to it. but let me tell you we all KNOW. at that time. i had never ever been told about anything when i was raped. but i knew it was wrong. my family was cool about being nude but not talking anything about it. even at 5 i still remember sooo clearly that this was wrong. that he should not be doing it.

but yeah listening to our children is HUUUGE for me. because i feel all children KNOW. they can pick up things that we adults have been deadened to. not necessarily sexual - meaning that person is a pedofile but that that person is not a 'nice' person. my v. social infant who would lunge out of my arms towards certain people, would never do that with some of them. she would cower from some of them. it would be a 180 degrees difference. yeah sitting on santa claus's lap is teh perfect example for me.


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## meemee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Hmm. But there is a world of difference between "Mrs. B touched me on the shoulder in math class and I didn't like that" and "Mrs. B touched me under my underwear."


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Not as much of a difference as one might think at first glance. Both are unwanted physical contact. Both are wrong. The only differences are the level of discomfort, the level of psychological damage, and the fact that one is criminal behaviour.

The whole body belongs to the person. Whether you touch someone on the shoulder, or on the genitals, unwanted physical contact is unwanted physical contact. *DD knows that no one has a right to touch her genitals without her permission. She also knows that no one has a right to touch her head/shoulder/elbow/any other non-sexual body part without her permission.*
.

plus i wanted to add that many of the pedo touches start with a mrs B touched me on the shoulder... touch type of thing before it went further.

and yeah ITA with MD. that's the same i have done with dd. its not so much the touch as much as the intent. you know the 'accidental' touch which you know was not accidental. whether to your boobs or just another part of your body.


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## Ceinwen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I just want to say that my kids are 2 and 6 and we still have skin to skin contact on a daily basis.

Do I strip off my shirt and cuddle them between my breasts like a newborn? No. But I have no problem sleeping naked next to my naked child in the family bed or snuggling and nursing while still naked after a bath or shower.

Skin to skin contact feels good. It's a sensual thing, not a sexual thing.

Similar. If anyone was uncomfortable, it would stop.

I prefer to have clothes on, both my dds (ages almost eight and almost three) run rampantly naked at home. I can convince them to keep underwear on most of the time (mostly to protect their little bottoms).


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## goodygumdrops

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
THANK you! Same here. I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

Naked can just be naked, and skin to skin contact with children is a loving thing.

























I am often naked in front of my 3.5 year old son. He's a total nudist...strips all the time. I have to constantly ask him to put his cloths on. Very occasionally, he shows interest in my breasts...we weaned when he was about 27 months or so. I don't really freak out about it, either. I figure that he views my breasts as a very comforting and so he is somewhat interested in them. But other than that...I don't see the big deal with people being naked in front of their kids, if both parties are fine with it. I certainly don't see a problem with a single mom and her daughter sharing a bed with nudity...







Not a big deal to me at all...


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## loraxc

I can't even express how misguided I think it is to believe that children always know what is abuse and what is not unless something is "wrong" with their intuition and they have been somehow raised wrong.

This verges on a victim-blaming mentality.

Quote:

but let me tell you we all KNOW.
This is simply incorrect. It is offensive to me that you think can speak for all victims of abuse. Imagine how it would feel to read this as an abuse victim who did not "know" at the time.

Some children are too young to know. Some children are developmentally delayed. Some children have been looking for attention and are pleased to get it. These are just a very few reasons why a child might not fully realize what is happening is abuse. I do not believe in this magical innocent perfect child intuition. Believing this could give a very risky false sense of security.


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## loraxc

Quote:

DD knows that no one has a right to touch her genitals without her permission. She also knows that no one has a right to touch her head/shoulder/elbow/any other non-sexual body part without her permission.
So...here we are talking about how children are hungry for touch, and you are telling me that your child has been taught that anyone who touches her must ask for permission first? Am I understanding you correctly? Frankly I think there is a huge difference here. As far as I am concerned, adults who interact with my children have an implicit right to touch their arm, elbow, head, etc unless my child specifically says "Please don't touch me." She is 6 and she goes to school and classes (I am not one to never let my child out of my sight--most parents cannot do this) and it would be bizarre and impractical to teach her that no one can ever touch her without asking first. I can't imagine a child doing this anyway. I know there are schools where no one is ever supposed to hug anyone, etc but I find this bizarre and am very glad my kid does not go to one.

But these adults certainly do not have an implicit right to touch her genitals unless she says no. These are two different kinds of touch. I find this argument very disingenuous and impractical.


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## GoBecGo

loraxc, with respect, most abusers rely on a mixture of guilt and shame and fear in their victims to ensure they maintain silence on it. In general victims do know what is happening is wrong, just not the specific magnitude of the wrongness or who is to blame (usually they blame themselves), otherwise most of us would have told someone right away. If it's not wrong, then why would my abuser tell me to keep it a secret? Why would my dad lose his job if i told? Why would my mother leave me at the police station forever if it wasn't wrong? If it was so ok, why would just *talking* to anyone about it cause my world to end? I knew. He made me feel it was MY wrong, but still, i knew it was wrong.

And i know no-one is allowed to touch me without my permission, but i don't have to go around telling people i consent to a hug or pat on the arm, i simply verbally or physically withdraw consent if it happens when i don't want it. To pretend children would not do the same is strange. My DD is generally open to hugs. Yet if she doesn't want one she simply says "no thanks, i don't want to hug".


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Some children are too young to know. Some children are developmentally delayed. Some children have been looking for attention and are pleased to get it. These are just a very few reasons why a child might not fully realize what is happening is abuse. I do not believe in this magical innocent perfect child intuition. Believing this could give a very risky false sense of security.

i guess I am failing to understand how believing and following a childs intuition combined with age and situation appropriate guidance is blaming the victim but teaching them "no one is allowed to touch your privates" is not?

if you tell them no one is allowed- and they allow it? do they then feel shame? are they then less likely to tell you because they are scared you will be mad for them "allowing" it? for not saying no out of fear?

what if their abuser tells them "dont tell your mom, she will be mad" and the one thing you have told them is "never let ANYONE touch you there"

i think that is dangerous.


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## GoBecGo

I think having any expectations that a child can do ANYTHING much to protect themselves against an abuser is dangerous. This is likely to be a person the parents know well and have allowed suitable access to their child for abuse to occur. Abusers groom parents first. If this person is able to fool you enough that they had access to your child, it's not likely that child is going to be capable of doing a better job than you at fighting their approaches off. To assume so is like leaving a kid your own kids age to babysit him/her. You wouldn't leave a 4yo in charge of your 4yo's safety, right?

All you can hope for is that a) you have been careful enough in establishing who you allow access to your kids and b) you have an open enough dialogue with your kids that IF they suffer the advances someone who got under your radar they are able to report fully and early to you.

I haven't really told DD not to let anyone touch her genitals. I've told her it's WEIRD if anyone wants to and she should tell me.

Really, i cannot remember how any of this relates to the age children become too old for skin-to-skin contact. Unless we count abuse. I would say ANY age is wrong for skin-to-skin as part of sexual abuse!


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 

All you can hope for is that a) you have been careful enough in establishing who you allow access to your kids and b) you have an open enough dialogue with your kids that IF they suffer the advances someone who got under your radar they are able to report fully and early to you.

you worded this so well.

i was JUST thinking how incredibly off topic this all is...


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## verde

...back on topic. I just read through this whole thread. To answer the OP's question.

We cosleep with our soon-to-be 5y/o DD. Both DH and DD sleeps naked because it's their personal preference. DH generally keeps a sheet around his middle for his own comfort. I wear a nightie when I get cold but if it's a warm night I'm naked. DD asks us for a "daily cuddle" (the three of us together) every morning and it's a really sweet moment for us. And yes, it's skin to skin.

We will follow DD's lead for her own comfort level re: nudity and cosleeping. Right now she likes both and that's fine. When she wants to change that situation, that'll be fine too.

I totally agree that with all the comments that nudity does not equal sex and that it's a matter of following people's comfort levels.


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## loraxc

I would suggest that every parent read up on the current thinking on how to prevent child sexual abuse. While there is certainly the acknowledgement that children should trust "bad feelings" about a person, there is a lot more to it than that. It is very widely acknowledged that children should be taught that certain areas are private.

http://www.stopitnow.com/dont_wait_everyday_prevention

http://www.rainn.org/get-information...sexual-assault

"# Teach children that some parts of their body are private.

* Let children know that other people should not be touching or looking at their private parts unless they need to touch them to provide care. If someone does need to touch them in those private areas, a parent or trusted caregiver should be there, too.
* Tell children that if someone tries to touch those private areas or wants to look at them, OR if someone tries to show the child their own private parts, they should tell a trusted adult as soon as possible.

FTR, I don't think I have worded it as "Don't let anyone touch you there" but as "That part of your body is private and no one should touch you there unless it is a doctor giving you an exam and I am there. If they do, tell me right away."

Also, if you object to children being taught that some areas are private and that there is a different standard for those areas than the rest of your body, and your child attends school, you may want to look at their curriculum to see if there is a component about preventing abuse. This is what they will be taught.

I would also urge anyone who sleeps naked with a child over 3-4 or so to consider that CPS might find this problematic. I'm not saying you're abusing them! I'm not saying I'd report you! But I'm pretty sure some people might.


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## GoBecGo

I looked at the first site and think that there is a difference between people having a RIGHT to privacy surrounding nudity and people having that "right" enforced upon them. My DD has a right to eat, she needn't eat if she isn't hungry. She has a right to sleep alone, she needn't if she doesn't want to. She has a RIGHT to be clothed, but she needn't be if she doesn't want to unless there is some compelling reason, like we are going out or someone is coming to visit (even then she sometimes gets randomly naked!). No-one here is *enforcing* skin-to-skin time, so how is this relevant to this discussion?


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## tallulahma

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I would suggest that every parent read up on the current thinking on how to prevent child sexual abuse. While there is certainly the acknowledgement that children should trust "bad feelings" about a person, there is a lot more to it than that. It is very widely acknowledged that children should be taught that certain areas are private.

http://www.stopitnow.com/dont_wait_everyday_prevention

http://www.rainn.org/get-information...sexual-assault

"# Teach children that some parts of their body are private.

* Let children know that other people should not be touching or looking at their private parts unless they need to touch them to provide care. If someone does need to touch them in those private areas, a parent or trusted caregiver should be there, too.
* Tell children that if someone tries to touch those private areas or wants to look at them, OR if someone tries to show the child their own private parts, they should tell a trusted adult as soon as possible.



i those are great guidelines that should be followed when developmentally and situationally appropriate- which is different for every child.

i am choosing not to focus on that aspect with my children until they are going to be away from me. Im focusing more on the whole body ownership- the older they get the easier I think it would be to get this message across without CONFUSING them as to WHY it needs to be private.

the rainn site also states

Quote:

All children should be told that it's okay to say "no" to touches that make them uncomfortable or if someone is touching them in ways that make them uncomfortable and that they should tell a trusted adult as soon as possible.
This can lead to some slightly embarrassing situations, such as a child who then says they don't want give a relative a hug or kiss! Work with your child to find ways to greet people that don't involve uncomfortable kinds of touch.
Talking openly about sexuality and sexual abuse also teaches children that these things don't need to be "secret." Abusers will sometimes tell a child that the abuse is a secret. Let your children know that if someone is touching them or talking to them in ways that make them uncomfortable that it shouldn't stay a secret.
Make sure to tell your child that that they will not get into trouble if they tell you this kind of secret.

which is the aspect some of us have voiced focusing more on....

i think this info should be given at age appropriate times...

skin to skin snuggles at ages 3-4 should NOT red flag CPS! that seems so absurd to me. it really does. Its a sad world we are in. where a topic of love and snuggles with your child turns to "you may be reported to CPS" this quickly.

i can also promise you that I KNOW people who were taught all the things listed on these websites and went on to be abused- because physical abuse is also emotional... and no guideline or speech about your privates is going to protect a child from a manipulative person intent on harming them in a way that is seductive and slow going.

these are things to teach your kids so that they are confident and secure enough to SPEAK OUT about the abuse... in which case there are many ways to that end, i believe.

i think the only reason a naked PARENT cuddling with a small child would be wrong is if a child is uncomfortable and either
a. isnt empowered to ask the parent to stop- which IS abuse.
b. a child is empowered enough to ask the parent to stop and the parent DOESNT LISTEN- which IS ALSO clear abuse.


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## loraxc

I certainly absolutely 100% never, ever make my child touch or be touched by anyone she does not want to. I have bad memories of being made to hug Uncle Whoever as a child and I very explicitly respect their rights here. Both my children know the proper names of genitalia, etc. We have had all those conversations, too.

Quote:

kin to skin snuggles at ages 3-4 should NOT red flag CPS!
What I actually said is that sleeping naked with a child OVER 3-4 might cause SOME people to CALL CPS. I don't actually know what CPS would do with that info, but they are required to investigate. It's my understanding that having CPS called on you is not fun.

Also, I don't follow this:

"i think the only reason a naked PARENT cuddling with a small child would be wrong is if a child is uncomfortable and either
a. isnt empowered to ask the parent to stop- which IS abuse."

Huh? So not sufficiently (emotionally?) empowering a child is abuse?


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## MusicianDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
So...here we are talking about how children are hungry for touch, and you are telling me that your child has been taught that anyone who touches her must ask for permission first? Am I understanding you correctly? Frankly I think there is a huge difference here. As far as I am concerned, adults who interact with my children have an implicit right to touch their arm, elbow, head, etc unless my child specifically says "Please don't touch me." She is 6 and she goes to school and classes (I am not one to never let my child out of my sight--most parents cannot do this) and it would be bizarre and impractical to teach her that no one can ever touch her without asking first. I can't imagine a child doing this anyway. I know there are schools where no one is ever supposed to hug anyone, etc but I find this bizarre and am very glad my kid does not go to one.

But these adults certainly do not have an implicit right to touch her genitals unless she says no. These are two different kinds of touch. I find this argument very disingenuous and impractical.

No one has the implicit right to touch my daughter. Ever. Just as she _always_ has a right to say "stop" or pull away or extricate herself from the situation. The _only_ exception to this is if they need to act in a way to save her life and she is not conscious or capable of consenting.

Saying that children feel a sense of wrongness when they experience abuse is _not_ blaming the victim. Not even close. It is stating a fact. It is a fact I know all too well. As a PP said, the abuser knows very well how to exploit this and use it to his or her advantage. "It feels wrong, because it is and it's all your fault. If you tell anyone they will blame you and you'll be the one getting in trouble!" There are factors that increase the probability that a child who is experiencing abuse will say something, open dialog about sex and their body, and knowing that no-one has the implicit right to touch them. True that it can only do so much, but it's a hell of a lot better than a child being told they can say "no" but not having that acknowledged by the most trusted adults in their life.


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## MusicianDad

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
Also, I don't follow this:

"i think the only reason a naked PARENT cuddling with a small child would be wrong is if a child is uncomfortable and either
a. isnt empowered to ask the parent to stop- which IS abuse."

Huh? So not sufficiently (emotionally?) empowering a child is abuse?

I believe the PP means the parents never discussed the fact that their child could say no in order to continue cuddling with a child who is uncomfortable with the naked aspect of it is abuse.

Another thing I have heard from abuse survivors. They were allowed to say "no" to _other_ adults, but were taught that they weren't allowed to say "no" to one or both of their parents.


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## tallulahma

No, not sufficiently empowering a child is unfortunate... Not emotionally empowering a child and them crossing the boundaries of the child with zero concern or regard to their state of comfort IS, at the very least, inappropriate and could most definitely be considered abusive.

For example- a child asks to wear pajamas repeatedly and the parent says,"no. Naked is better! It's nice! Come on!"
that I could see bein creepy/innapropriate.


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## loraxc

Quote:

No one has the implicit right to touch my daughter. Ever.
Just trying to understand here--so, if a ballet teacher touches your DD in ballet class without explicitly asking first, you consider this a violation?

Your DD has been taught to do what in this situation?

If what you are trying to say is that your daughter has the right to revoke anyone's permission to touch her, then of course I agree. If you believe no other adult, in a professional capacity, should ever touch your child without first asking consent, then that's pretty weird to me.

I feel like I am being painted as the overcautious one in this discussion, but it is this attitude that strikes me as overkill.


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## MusicianDad

There is more than one way to give permission. She also has the ability to move out of the way of someones touch, tell them to stop, etc.

I don't think it's over kill to tell my daughter that no one has the _right_ to touch her. Being able to touch other people is never a right. I don't have the right to touch DH and I'm married to him. Heck I don't even consider myself has having a right to touch DS. If I go to pick him up and he says "no", I don't do it.

Touch is not a _right_ and should never be considered one.

Or maybe it would make far more sense if I say touching is a privilege.

We may have a different idea of what a right it though. The definition I have is an entitlement against other people. No one should feel they are entitled to touch other people.

FTR DD generally doesn't take classes if she knows someone would randomly come up to her and touch her because she just doesn't like it when that happens, even though she is very much a physical person.


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## lakeruby

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

I agree with this, although I don't have any experience with it, as my family was not a naked family while I was growing up, and I don't have kids yet. But I feel that plenty of sex happens when people are wearing clothes, and I spend plenty of time naked without having sex, so I don't think the two are necessarily related. I hope to have confident children one day who are not unneccesarily embarrassed about their bodies.


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