# My son is out of control



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

My son is 6.5, he'll be 7 in January. He is 100% out of control. He is verbally and physically abusive to everyone in our family. On an almost daily basis he loses it, attacks one of his sisters or me. He speaks rudely to us probably at least 80% of the time. It is getting to the point where I really do not like him. He calls me names, screams in my face, hits me, shoves me into the wall and laughs about it. I do not believe this is acceptable, or normal, behaviour. I am just at my end and I am soooooo tired of everyone saying that punishment is wrong. I'm not going to spank him but please - explain to me how punishment is wrong? Look how great he's behaving with us letting him rule the roost. Maybe I am just totally crazy, maybe you all enjoy having your kid kick the crap out of you and talk to you like you are some lower life form, but I am done with it.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Oh mama, I'm sorry. That sounds terrible. I have no advice, I just couldn't read and not respond. I hope you get the advice/help you need.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am so sorry you are going through this and wanted to respond although I don't have any advice except to bring one thing to your attention -- nutrition. Have you considered that your LO may have some sensitivities, intolerances or allergies?

If you have, please disregard -- but I would first begin by removing any artificial colors/flavorings/additives/dyes from his diet...they can be huge triggers for emotional outbursts -- gluten is a huuuuuge sensitivity that affects appx 1 in 100 people, it can affect behavior bigtime, as well as dairy and soy. If he is deficient in any vitamins/minerals (magnesium, iron, B vitamins spring to mind), that can affect behavior very negatively. It is also worth mentioning too that gluten sensitivities deplete many vitamins.

I hope you find some information that can help mama


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Heavenly, no one enjoys that. Of course you don't.

Is it possible to seek help to get to the bottom of what is causing him so much trouble? Is there someone he is close to that he might open up to about it?

My feelings about punishment are that *long-term* it is counter-productive.

What steps can you take to keep you and your family safe?


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

I don't think that any reasonable person on this board would suggest that you continue to patiently try to deal with your son on your own. You and you son need professional help.

What does his father have to say about this behavior? Have you discussed this with your son's doctor? How does he behave at school? I have to imagine he isn't an angel around everyone else and just a horror to you. If he's acting out at school for instance and getting into trouble, seek out some referral information regarding psychologists, parenting classes (no "positive" parenting crap, but real behavior modification) and talk to his doctor about the specifics of his potentially dangerous behavior.

I think that mothers especially are prone to downplaying how bad things are sometimes and asking for help is really hard. You sound like a woman in an abusive relationship and you need to start protecting yourself. If your son is a physical threat to you or his sisters, you MUST protect yourself and your girls. This might seem like an overstatement to some on this board, but "little" boys grow up to be BIG boys and if they are used to walking all over you and pushing their way around, you or your daughters could very well get hurt at some point.

Good luck,


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
Look how great he's behaving with us letting him rule the roost.

Why do you "let him rule the roost"?

I think that very well might be the crux of the issue. I would think he's doing it because, as ruler, he can.

Do you believe in consequence of any kind? What do you currently do when does these awful things to you and your other child?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

The Explosive Child. Very good book.

Also, with aggression like that at his age, I would consider seeking some professional assistance. I've done this for my oldest, and it was really hard to do but it was beneficial-it helped us begin to better understand our dd's behavior and moods. In fact, we're in the process of a second assessment (the first therapist moved out of state) b/c we haven't resolved the issue of aggression.

In our experience, with our child, punishment not only doesn't work it makes things worse. eta That we have been working hard, for a long time, on helping her reduce her aggression in other ways. It is possible to work on these things and communicate that the behavior is neither safe nor acceptable, without punishment.

www.thinkkids.org

www.explosivekids.org/index.html#new

http://www.explosivekids.org/pdf/caregiverhandout.pdf


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Heavenly: What's your *best guess* on what's triggering this?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

:


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

Heavenly - I"m sorry you're going through this. I don't know where you live but I would suggest either asking your family doctor for resources or getting out the phone book and calling a social services organization and asking for advice.

My son is 4.5 and explosive - since he was born. He is not exhibiting the behaviours you describe but then again he is younger. But we have had major struggles with his behaviours and moods.

Reading "The Explosive Child" and "Taming Your Spirited Child" have helped.

I begged my doctor for help (I live in southern Ontario, Canada). She forwarded us to an organization that did a 2 hour assessment. We then had a child & youth worker come to the home. He would sit and discuss issues and meet with the whole family and offer parenting strategies. This worker helped a tiny bit. I can see how he'd actually really help someone like yourself with an older child but our DS is too young in some ways.

We are also in the process of being assessed by a child psychiatrist. Not sure if this person is going to help us but again - it's helpful to have a professional make a stab at helping the family decipher what is wrong.

There are, I've learned, various support groups, programs, free or low-cost counselling out there. I believe and hope there are things that could help your son and you and your family deal with these issues.

It is so stressful, isn't it. I can believe it. I have to say too. I have spanked my son and quite honestly it's never done any good. I know, cognitively, it's not right to spank but out of frustration and desperation, I've resorted to it and yes - it's true - it only makes things worse. And at your son's age and as our sons grow older, how can spanking help. I can forsee the future when there are fists flying and major family violence if we were too adopt this approach.

I have found as I said the two books above particularly helpful. I really liked "Taming Your Spirited Child" because it seemed realistic and had solutions rather than just describing my son's personality and leaving me to figure out solutions.

Good luck!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think there are issues there, Heavenly, that are outside the realm of normal discipline problems. "The Explosive Child" is a good place to start.

I will suggest too, that punishing him may set you up for increasing explosive encounters as he gets older, _because_ of his existing problems. If there is an underlying problem (and there probably is) then punishing him will not teach him how to cope with his frustrations. It will only make his feelings more intense and difficult to cope with.

That said, it is _extremely_ important that you hold him accountable and responsible for his actions, even when it seems that he has no control. When he breaks things, he needs to find a way to replace/repair them. When he hurts people, he has created a rift in the relationship that he needs to take responsibility for. And so on. There is a very clear difference between holding a child responsible, and punishing him. Kids are clever enough to pick up on the difference between a "fair" consequence and a punative/arbitrary consequence, kwim? When you hold a child responsible, you are actively _respecting_ him, and he will know and feel better because of that.

Also, when he is volitile and unsafe, it is reasonable and logical to remove him from the company of other people. Including you. People who are not safe to be around, should be required to take a break from being around people. Call it a time-out if you want -- I don't have a problem with putting a violent child in time-out until they are calm, for the safety and well-being of the rest of the family.

Finally -- it seems like your son needs a lot of structure in his life. Its okay to have structure -- its a parental responsibility to provide structure when a child needs it.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Heavenly: What's your *best guess* on what's triggering this?









:

What triggers the verbal and physical aggression? How is his mood before he becomes aggressive? Can you tell it's coming? I've found that identifying what the triggers are helps us prevent a lot of aggression.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I don't really know what my best guess is. It seems to be triggered whenever he doesn't get his way or I try and make him go to his room because he is being aggressive with the girls and with me. The thing that confuses me the most is that when he is screaming and threatening and hitting, the majority of the time he is smiling or laughing about it. I can understand a kid throwing a tantrum. I don't think at his age he should be but still... but smiling about it? Laughing about it? That doesn't seem normal to me.
My middle child is "normal." She has fits and screams but they seem like normal fits. She isn't aggressive, she certainly never laughs about it and she shapes up pretty quickly.
My youngest is another story entirely. She is shaping up to be like her brother. She is worse than he was at that age and he was pretty intense. She isn't even two and she throws the most outrageous fits. She screams this horrible scream over and over again for ages. She doesn't seem to need sleep at all. She hits, bites, kicks. I know kids, I know what is normal. I know what 2 year olds are like, really I do. But this is beyond the regular 2 year old stuff. She seems to have issues too.
I am seriously scared about the bipolar issue. Because it is so strongly genetic in my family I know that the chances that one or more of my children will have it is pretty high. The psychiatrist that I used to go to for my bipolar said that with the high amount of cases in my family we are probably looking at a 35-50% chance that each of my children will get it. Sometimes I wish I had known that before I had kids. Not that I regret them, but you know what I mean.
If I had to wager a guess I would say I am seriously concerned that my oldest and youngest are bipolar. Phew, saying those words is really hard! Obviously the youngest its too young to tell but I just don't know. Sometimes he is such a sweet little guy. And when he has good times I think that its silly to be concerned. But when the bad times hit (and they hit far to regularly) I get concerned.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

or ADHD (if you belive it exists)

Mabye you should

Find a GOOD doc, with some alternative tendancys (mabye a Chiropracter or other D.O.)

And have physicals for everyone, making sure to have things diagnosed that relate the the symptoms.

Do some research yourself to see what you think it might be? (try wrongdiagnosis.com for a start)

Rule out medical causes of the behavior....and food dye/allergies...

And try to find a way to manage the behavior instead of fixing it. (Sounds better to manage, right?)


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I just wanted to post a link to this post I wrote in 2004. It is about the possibility of my son being bipolar. I just thought it interesting that in it I mentioned what will I do when he's 7. Well now he's almost 7 and things have gotten worse. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=bipolar

Oh and I did have him tested for food sensitivities when he was 3 and he has been off all that ever since. He does have sugar more now that he's older but I see no correlation between consumption of sugar and the behaviour problems. When he has wheat he is even worse. He is almost autistic like when he has wheat (my neice has autism so I do know about it). I don't think he is autistic - I am just saying it affects him drastically. But he is off wheat and still no help with the rest of this.


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

Oh







s
This sounds SO MUCH like my dd#1, when she is eating "normal" I know how hard this is. We follow the Feingold diet (no artificial colors, flavors, preservatives, she is also sensitive to apples, oranges, and pineapples)

Now, she is not a quiet kids, but you can at least stand to be around her when she is on her diet. She is more normally high strung, instead of out of control rages.

Please look into this, we were at our whits end and medicating her seemed our only solution when we found this, it has greatly changed our lives.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Hi I don't know if you read my further posts but my son has already been off a bunch of food that he's sensitive to since he was 3 year old. Thanks for the tip though, I know alot of people don't think to look to food sensitivities for an answer. We have been dealing with this for as long as I can remember with him which is why we did get him tested when he was 3.


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## Iris' Mom (Aug 3, 2007)

I would start by getting a full-scale neuropsych evaluation to rule out or identify any psych/learning or other issue. There are many things this could be, some of which have already been mentioned.


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## rachellanigh (Aug 26, 2006)

Gentle Discipline does work and it works wonders. I'm not sure how it would work starting at 7. This is not knowing what you have tried in the past. The main point is that you are seeking help. Don't give up on your son


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## bunman'smama (Jul 19, 2005)

I' m so sorry to hear you are going through this....I could have written it about my 3year old a month ago. I haven't read all the replies and am probably being redundant but - WHEAT. We took our son off wheat, and just that changed his behaviour 100%. I'll try to write more when I don't have a fussy baby but - if you haven't already tried taking youir son off wheat, it's worth a shot. My son tested negative for wheat allergies and it was only the gut feeling of a dear friend - and total desperation - that led me in that direction.
I've also found the book Easy to Love -Dificult to Disipline so helpful in maintaining my own sanity. I have literally read it out loud during some really bad extended tantrums.
Big hugs to you and your family
Lisa


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Heavenly, you seem to be struggling with this by yourself. Who else can help you? I can't remember if you have a dp. How do that work itself in? Does the way ds act mirror that way you acted in your manic phases? What kind of treatment do you respond to for your bipolar?

Has he had a psych evaluation by someone you trust?

If it is a mental health issue, moving to punishment, especially without addressing the underlying mental heath issue is more likely to damage your relationship with him than provide the family any relief from his rages. If the rages are beyond his control, punishment will make him feel worse, but not behave better.

How did your bipolar affect your relationships before you had it under control? How would it have been helpful for people to respond?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachellanigh* 
Gentle Discipline does work and it works wonders. I'm not sure how it would work starting at 7. This is not knowing what you have tried in the past. The main point is that you are seeking help. Don't give up on your son

I have been using gentle discipline from birth. Thanks.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Heavenly, you seem to be struggling with this by yourself. Who else can help you? I can't remember if you have a dp. How do that work itself in? Does the way ds act mirror that way you acted in your manic phases? What kind of treatment do you respond to for your bipolar?

Has he had a psych evaluation by someone you trust?

If it is a mental health issue, moving to punishment, especially without addressing the underlying mental heath issue is more likely to damage your relationship with him than provide the family any relief from his rages. If the rages are beyond his control, punishment will make him feel worse, but not behave better.

How did your bipolar affect your relationships before you had it under control? How would it have been helpful for people to respond?

When I am manic, I get angry. Just like he does. I try and hide that from the children. I also get extreme sensory issues (like severe sensory integration dysfunction). Yes, I am married. DH thinks there is nothing wrong but he isn't the one who is with him all the time. We homeschool so I am the one that is there all the time. One minute he can be the sweetest kid in the world and the next...watch out! This morning he got up and made me a really beautiful picture just because. Now he is out selling apples for Beavers with his dad. We will see how the rest of the day goes. I am keeping a mood chart for him to try and see if it shows bipolar signs. I am going to try and find a doctor as well.


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## munkeesmama (May 17, 2005)

First off I would seek professional help. I would get a psych eval along with a child psychologist for therapy. My guess is there are other issues going on which are causing him to have outbursts. I will also let you know that typically bipolar comes out in the mid to late teens so coming out this early would be unusual but not unheard of. With that said, the youngest may not actually have a "problem" so much as learning by example, and is more impressionable than the middle child. The youngest sees oldest behaving this way (and probably getting attention for it whether it be good or bad) so youngest behaves the same way.

How is dad? Is dad on board with your parenting?

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say from my personal expierence and watching some people parent that at times kids who try to "rule the roost" and have these outbursts are actually BEGGING for guidance, "gentle discipline" and accountability. Kids can NOT parent themselves, and when left to do so (I say this in a loving manner not that you're not doing your best) they are forced to draw from the shallow bowl of resources which can lead to them being aggressive. I also think that it will get worse before it gets better. :







s::


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

These kinds of problems are probably not related to discipline style and are almost certainly not your fault. I agree with those who said it might be something organic. It sounds difficult and stressful and I hope you find an answer to it from some kind of doctor - an allergist, a psychologist, etc.

The reason I think they're not related to discipline style is that when parents simply don't have any boundaries or expectations, kids I've seen become bratty and get a sense of entitlement. I haven't seen kids in that situation have the kind of aggression you're talking about. I've seen that from kids with food allergies or some other kind of medical cause. A neighbor has a daughter with a dairy allergy who had problems like that before they discovered her allergy.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
These kinds of problems are probably not related to discipline style and are almost certainly not your fault. I agree with those who said it might be something organic. It sounds difficult and stressful and I hope you find an answer to it from some kind of doctor - an allergist, a psychologist, etc.

The reason I think they're not related to discipline style is that when parents simply don't have any boundaries or expectations, kids I've seen become bratty and get a sense of entitlement. I haven't seen kids in that situation have the kind of aggression you're talking about. I've seen that from kids with food allergies or some other kind of medical cause. A neighbor has a daughter with a dairy allergy who had problems like that before they discovered her allergy.










I will be very curious to hear how it turns out. My dh was like this when he was a kid and everyone (including him) just regards him as a "bad kid," I wonder what was really going on. ???

He was diagnosed with ADHD but I dunno...that was over 20 years ago and they didnt know alot about it.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Heavenly, my dd can act very similarly. She is also 6.5. Most recently, we moved and survived 2 months of this behavior because she was angry. I, too, have practiced GD since birth. I sleep cuddled up with this child every night, and get attacked by her by day









I have spent time examining the symptoms of bipolar in children. Somedays she fits it to a tee. But bipolar does not run in my family...only unipolar depression.

Anyway, we have seen some great improvements lately. I've begun to enforce strict time-outs for specific "issue" behaviors (I think of it as storming and raging....raging is the actually attacking part, and storming is just moving around as a cloud of intensely negative behavior all. day. long.). I have explained, ad nauseam, that certain behaviors are unacceptable no matter how bad you feel. No matter what, you may not hit, kick, throw objects at people, push, etc. No matter what. And if you do, you are removed until you are calm enough to answer the question "Next time _____ happens, what will you do?" and give an appropriate response.

The first two weeks of this were hell, as she tested to see if I would stick to it. But I did, and, believe it or not, things are better. ANd dd seems worlds happier. I've defined the line, and stepped up enforcing it, and dd actually seems relieved.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Heavenly, my dd can act very similarly. She is also 6.5. Most recently, we moved and survived 2 months of this behavior because she was angry. I, too, have practiced GD since birth. I sleep cuddled up with this child every night, and get attacked by her by day









I have spent time examining the symptoms of bipolar in children. Somedays she fits it to a tee. But bipolar does not run in my family...only unipolar depression.

Anyway, we have seen some great improvements lately. I've begun to enforce strict time-outs for specific "issue" behaviors (I think of it as storming and raging....raging is the actually attacking part, and storming is just moving around as a cloud of intensely negative behavior all. day. long.). I have explained, ad nauseam, that certain behaviors are unacceptable no matter how bad you feel. No matter what, you may not hit, kick, throw objects at people, push, etc. No matter what. And if you do, you are removed until you are calm enough to answer the question "Next time _____ happens, what will you do?" and give an appropriate response.

The first two weeks of this were hell, as she tested to see if I would stick to it. But I did, and, believe it or not, things are better. ANd dd seems worlds happier. I've defined the line, and stepped up enforcing it, and dd actually seems relieved.

Wow tough mama. Good for you. I pray that I can be that consistant one day! Its one of my biggest parenting struggles.









Great job giving her what she needed.


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## BoringTales (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Heavenly, my dd can act very similarly. She is also 6.5. Most recently, we moved and survived 2 months of this behavior because she was angry. I, too, have practiced GD since birth. I sleep cuddled up with this child every night, and get attacked by her by day









I have spent time examining the symptoms of bipolar in children. Somedays she fits it to a tee. But bipolar does not run in my family...only unipolar depression.

Anyway, we have seen some great improvements lately. I've begun to enforce strict time-outs for specific "issue" behaviors (I think of it as storming and raging....raging is the actually attacking part, and storming is just moving around as a cloud of intensely negative behavior all. day. long.). I have explained, ad nauseam, that certain behaviors are unacceptable no matter how bad you feel. No matter what, you may not hit, kick, throw objects at people, push, etc. No matter what. And if you do, you are removed until you are calm enough to answer the question "Next time _____ happens, what will you do?" and give an appropriate response.

The first two weeks of this were hell, as she tested to see if I would stick to it. But I did, and, believe it or not, things are better. ANd dd seems worlds happier. I've defined the line, and stepped up enforcing it, and dd actually seems relieved.

I think that's great advice. It isn't going to be easy, and obviously it already isn't. He needs rules. He needs consistent guidance and consistent consequences. You've said yourself that he 'rules the roost'. That needs to stop immediately. Making the change from him being in charge to you being in charge is going to be a really difficult transition for him, and for you. It'll probably be exhausting.

Definitely speak to his doctor about possible heath issues.

If it were me, here is what I would do...

1)Make a 'rule board'. Something like, "We are always kind and gentle to each other", "We always respect each other's space", "If we get angry we talk about it or have some alone time until we calm down". Explain these rules clearly.(First thing in the morning would be great. He wakes up, and over breakfast you have a "Things are changing around here because I love you" chat.) Figure out a good reward system for when he deals with things appropriately. You could try a 'chart' for tracking this. Seeing his progress for good behavior could be really beneficial.

2)I'd make a 'time-out' spot for him, not just 'go to your room'. Either a chair somewhere, a mat on the floor, or even a specific corner in your home. When he breaks a rule, sit him in the chair, on the mat, or make him stand with his nose in the corner. Take away privileges (tv, computer, video games, favorite toys, etc) for a specified amount of time when he breaks one of the rules that you've put into place.

Good luck!! I hope you can figure out a plan and stick to it!


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