# Child Protection, have you had to deal with them? How do you deal?



## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

No, I'm not under investigation for child abuse. But, people have called on me because I gave birth at home unassisted, don't vaccinate, or because they were unaware that we were under a physician's care for FTT due to breastfeeding difficulties. There's been calls made in against me by people who don't know me, or who were doing it just out of spite, anger, or revenge.

I live in an area where odds are every parent will have CPS called on them by their child's 18th birthday. I was even told by a school official that by the end of the school year, every parent WILL have CPS called on them by the school. CPS does practically nothing even in cases of abuse because they are so overloaded with false reports. And, those who make false reports aren't reprimanded even though the result of their one phone call is months of intruders in the victim's home, and a lifetime of distrust and anger.

It's rape by the system, and most of the time I feel there's nothing that can be done about it. I feel so bad for other parents who go through this.

Victims Of Child Abuse Laws


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Are you sure there is nothing that can be done to the false reporters? I mean you get in trouble for calling 911 if its false, right? Have you talked with your SW to see what can be done? I would consider it harrassment. I am so sorrry you are dealing with this. It must be tough- you do these things (homebirth, no vax) for your childrens' protection, and then are accused of trying to harm them.


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## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

There is nothing that can be done. I'm not dealing with CPS right now. This was all in the past, but it still bothers me, especially when I see other parents (and children) being victimized by an agency that was put in place to protect children and families.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

Are you sure there is nothing that can be done to the false reporters.."

No. There is a family on one of my lists dealing with this right now. Most of the false allegations have been dismissed in court but they have no recourse against who filed the false report. It is even harder if it is "anonymous" but even when CPS knows and you get charged dropped, you still are out the lawyers fees if you were able to have one or have lost your kids anyway and the false reporters go on their merry way -that bothers me -the ones that know they are lying for revenge spite etc ..


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Wow that really sucks.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I have had many encounters with CPS.

Rule number one: they are never wrong.

Rule number two: if they are wrong, see Rule number one.

You have to know your rights. It is unconstitutional to appear in court as the defendant and not be able to face your accuser, therefore these anonymous reports are really a denial of your civil rights. Also the appearance at your front door with a demand to enter is a blantant violation of the Fourth Amendment.

My teenage daughter accused me of physically abusing me. The truth was that I would not let her run the streets late at night, especially school nights; one of her "friends" put her up to it. I had been attending "Toughlove" meetings, and I would make missing persons reports on her, and the juvenile police woman decided that I was "fabricating" stories. I appeared in court with her citation for smoking dope on a high school campus and with her report card, and I was totally ignored. My DH was beginning a second round of cancer treatments at the time and the judge blasted him in court because he had missed a hearing. I had lost all four of my children on paper. It was a nightmare that lasted a year. I had to prove that I took the children to school, to the doctor, to the dentist, and that there was sufficient food for them and go to psychotherapy. I had no problem doing this, but really!

The police officer that turned me over to CPS committed suicide two months after the end of my case. Her suicide was broadcast on the network news. She was a real nut case.

Meanwhile, because of this case, I can never be a foster parent.

I have written about my many encounters with CPS on these boards. They are not very intelligent. There are no critical thinking going on in their minds. The judges do not allow any discussion in the court room and behave as if they were god.

As a teacher, I am obligated to turn suspected child abuse and neglect over to CPS; I have, but I never have seen any improvement in any situation they go into.

They really have too much power.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Post Script:

I have contacted VOCAL in the past, and they never did anything to help me even though I sent them $. I was pretty much all by myself.

One bizarre note:

In court, I was told by the judge that all of the cost of the therapy and physical exams would be handled by the county in which I live. I was also given a list of therapists and therapy groups which were recommended by CPS. Not one of these on the list would take me or they had at least a years waiting list. I had to pay out of pocket for psychotherapy and I had to find my own therapists and get them O.K.'d by CPS.

My daughter refused to attend most of the therapy sessions; she would disappear. I went by myself with my other children. My DH never went even though he was court ordered to. These issues were never addressed.

Edited to add:

How did I deal with this rape of my civil rights?

I simply let them mow me down.

They are simply and entirely too big and powerful. I went through the motions and got out from under their thumb. My daughter today? Still the same way. She never finished college despite the fact that I made her finish High School by exam at age 16. CPS never gave me credit for that. DH and I had $ saved to send her to a four year school and she desired to run wild instead. My DD did tell me that she was molested at a public middle school when she was 14; I went to the police to make a report, and I was laughed at by the police man; he told me to go tell someone who cared. I made an internal affairs report against this officer, and it was dropped. HOW DOES ANYONE GET ANY SATISFACTION AROUND HERE??? Has everyone gone completely nuts? My daughter is molested at school and no one cares. I try to control my delinquent daughter, and I am accused of child abuse.

That is why I just went along with the program...I thought I had died and gone to HELL!


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

yes " know your rights" !!!
very important when dealing with CPS. my mom (sweet huh?) called CPS on me with tons of false charges and they showed up THE NEXT DAY. heres what they want from you and what you should say/do
IF
-they ask to speak to your child alone- SAY NO , repeatedly..children can be swayed into saying anything..and often make up stories (as we all know)
-they ask you to take a drug test (and when they are asking they mean pee in a cup right here right now) ..remind them that you have a constitutional rigth AGIANST unreasonable search . that you believe strongly in your rights...that as far as you know the only one who legaly CAN require you to pee in a cup is a judge, so when one tells you to you would be happy to ablige. -say this if you are clean or not because they have no right to test you and things get skrewed up all the time, what if somehow your test shows up dirty..guess what they dont wait till you take a second test, they take your kids!
-if they ask to photograph your child- refuse, say that is unnessary. but i will let you see that he/she is not beaten and show his/her arms, legs, back and tummy.
-when they ask you for medical records they will want you to sign a release that states that CPS can have all of you medical history and your childs, and any future history!! say um NO! but i can have my pediatrition fax you over his/her last visit info and i will take him/her in tomarrow for another appointment and have that faxed also.
-by now the CPS worker is VERY frustrated with you, and you have had to repeat the word No as many times as your toddler does in a day. they will make some threat about setting up the court day to get the information they want, and you say. thats fine- BUT please direct all future calls to my lawyer, ill be having him/her call you tomarrow.

then they will leave...what happended with me is 1 hour later i got a call back form the same worker who said- she spoke with her boss and there woulld be no need to involve lawyers, it was obvious there was no abuse going on, and the case would be dropped immeadiatly.

CPS takes kids away from poor, uneducated parents. sad but true, this is more so the case than CPS takes kids away from abusive parents. CPS misses alot of real abuse cases and takes away alot of kids from parents who just needed some help (money, support, parental classes)

most of be polite but dont think they are your friends, they will act like it at first but they ARE NOT. then when it becomes clear you are not willing to be buddybuddy with them, dont be rude or loud or inappropriate, just firm and sure of yourself..
hope this helps someone.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

When CPS came to the door to investigate my sister because of a false report made by an angry neighbor, the Burbank Police told her she had to let them in.

Keep in mind that the local police do not care about your rights either. Nor do they know any thing about your rights in this situation neither.

In the above post, I do not believe that you even have to agree to have your child photographed. This could just be a negotiating point, however.

With photographs, these can be manipulated in a laboratory, so I would not trust these people with photographs of my children.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

you guys bash cps alot and i'm really not sure why. i have never had cps called on me but my 14 year old has threatened me to do so . Know what i tell him ? go ahead. the worst that can happen is they will send me to parenting classes. i have no prior record of anything. if you are house has food in it, your children are clean why not pee in the cup? go along with them. and also children can be interviewed alone... I teach in a big city and have called cps on one girls mom whose back was welted. i'm glad i called them. the family needed help.

also, what is the point of an unassissted birth? wouldn't you want a mid-wife present to determine if medical intervention was neccessary?


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## MamaChel (Mar 28, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*you guys bash cps alot and i'm really not sure why.

*
I can answer this, at least for me. I have experienced gross mishandling by CPS form the *child's* POV. I was sexually and emotionally abused for *years*. When my school found out they made the required call- CPS picked me up from the police station after hours of questioning and called my dad. They released me into the custody of a violent abusive alcoholic- knowing that he was a violent alcoholic- family preservation or some such crap. I had 2 siblings in tha house- both were also being abused. Did CPS bother to remove them? Nope- just me-THEY LEFT MY BABY BROTHER AND SISTER IN THE HOUSE WITH A RAPIST FOR 2 YEARS!!!!!!!! I was told that I HAD to stay with my father even though he was violent and abusive ro they would drop my case, if I even hinted that things weren't perfect- they would just leave my brother and sister where they were and send me to juvenile hall. I was 13! They required no therepy to help me deal with anything. We finally went to trial after several postponements and 4 ADA's- guess what the bastard was convicted- I WAS RIGHT- he admitted later to more things than I could remember. Even after his conviction CPS did nothing to help my siblings who had been brainwashed by him into believing that I was an evil whore out to ruin his life. None of us will ever recover- I live in fear every day that CPS will once again come and destroy my family and there is nothing I can ever do to stop them. They don't care if there is abuse or not- rarely is an abused child ever removed from the abuse- if they are they are just placed in a situation just as bad if not worse. (Several children in foster care were killed by their foster parents in my area last year- that's not counting the many that are "lost") I have good reason to bash CPS and I know of MANY families with good reason as well- I have never known CPS to just send anyone to parenting classes- they take kids first and ask questions last- if they ask questions at all. They truly have and exorcse the power to make a family's life hell.


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

applejuice- im sorry if you read in my post TO have your kid photographed- i said tell them that is inappropriate- meaning NO. but you do need to let them see visially not with a camera the childs body (not genitalia)... and i say this because i agree with you- pictures can and im sure have been manipulated.

jannon- i am frankly almost speechless after your post----
-about children being interviewed- im tlkaing about 2-5 year olds especially (which they think is old enough to interview) this age of child is EXTREAMLY easy to sway into saying anything you want them to, especially if you have experience with it..plus most children have very overactive imaginations... do you want someone asking your child, does daddy hit you- and the child remembering the ONe time daddy swatted her/him lightly on the butt, to say "yes" and then the worker says "where?" and now remeber last time your young child was sick and you asks where does it hurt and they randomly start pointing everywhere on their body- well thats what is most likely to happen.
- as far as the drug tests. hey if you dont give a crap about your rights then by all means give them away, lots of americans do every day! but remeber this- just because you dont DO DRUGS dosnt mean your pee test will be clean. dont belive me if you want, but those test do get false positives often. and what happens if it is positive?? THEY TAKE YOUR CHILD- no parenting classes, till after the fact- then your kid goes to foster care, where they are many times more likely to be abused, sexually, physically and emotionally, or even killed! AND once CPS has your kid it is HARD to get them back....so again- if you dont care about your rights or your childs safety then by all means bend over so CPS has a nice shot of your butt...tell us how that goes!
- and i have no comment for you unassited birth comment- go read about it and again-think some people like to have the RIGHT to do what they are supposed to have the RIGHT to do...

mamachel-
exactly- CPS leaves kids in bad situations, especially if they are older (14-16) because there is little money to be gained from that child- CPS gets money for every kid they place in foster care and for each month that child stays there..a 16 year old will leave soon and is VERY hard to place ina foster home, so they leave them...that is why they are so much more likely to snatch a baby or toddler, they are easy to place in foster care and later easy to adopt- tons of money for them there!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I have no experience with CPS. But I do want to point out that it is a state-run agency with local offices. So everyone's experience with CPS people will not be the same. Police in one area may have had sensitivity training for dealing with CPS issues, and in another area they might have a culture of not believing children. In one city the CPS social workers might know they get a lot of false calls and in another city, they might be seriously out to get parents. There may also be differences in how the same office treats people because of race and class.

It's the same as other institutions in this society that we deal with as parents. (And unfortunately, as children.







)Some teachers, doctors, nurses and officials of the state (CPS, police) are our allies. Others are burnt out, biased against us for various reasons, or just power-tripping.

To say this:

Quote:

*
you guys bash cps alot and i'm really not sure why.*
shows a lack of recognition that other people's experiences may be different. Or a lack of reading comprehension, since the details of what people didn't like about CPS were spelled out.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

lizhippymom:

I understand what you said, thank you.

When my daughter was taken, my daughter was placed with my sister, who grew tired of my daughter's hijinx and threw her out after ten days; my other sister took her in and grew tired of my daughter's hijinx and threw my daughter out after three months. They did not receive any $ from the county - I sent them $ personally myself.

If CPS received any $, that was a scam because I was told the county had NO $ to negotiate my case and I had to pay for it all myself. And I did. For a year.

My second sister who took my daughter in did not want any visitation from CPS. She told them if they came into her home, they could look forward to video taping of any conversation in her home and the presence of her own chosen credible witnesses. They never came. My daughter lived there for three months.

We could learn a thing or two from her.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

It is so true what Captain Optimism said about cps varying greatly from place to place. My mom was a foster parent, so she dealt with them, and never had anything nice to say about them (from a foster parent viewpoint). She is in CA. I dealt with them a bit when I worked at a group home in Cali, though I mostly dealt with social workers who worked for a private non profit agency that was contracted by the state; and they were okay but overworkerd, and made some really asinine decisions.

Now I'm dealing with them as we are going to be fosterparents. I live in a small town, and everyone knows each other, and there is a "crunchy" feel to the town; I've met the "head" cps lady and she seems very cool. I do know that here, cps will investigate even for a very very minor thing. They won't remove kids for a minor thing, but certainly investigate. And this particular group of workers is very much for educating parents rather than just taking babies. From what we were told, in our area, there are more cases of neglect rather than abuse; and they belived education and counseling can teach these parents how to care for their kids. Of course, if the parent's won't follow their plan, then they will move to tpr (terminate parental rights) after 12 months. In all, I had a really positvie feeling about the workers/cps here. However, I do find this to be the minority, unfortunately. And, the social workers are way overworkerd, they have double the caseload the average worker does; I believe she told us they have 30 cases each! They are trying to hire another one, though.........

I guess my long point is that CPS scares the hell out of me as a parent. I don't abuse or neglet my children; but all it takes is one phone call and one crappy worker to make my life a nightmare. And that power terrifies me. I think what we need in the CPS system is more checks and balances; one persons word shouldn't be everything. I think if there is a case, then there should be a worker for the child and a worker for the parents. To just have a worker for the family doesn't work, imo.

Kristi


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Cop bashing? I used to be a police cadet. I'll just take a moment to say THE STORIES ARE TRUE! Racial profiling, bribes, corruption, rape, etc.

Quote:

I was even told by a school official that by the end of the school year, every parent WILL have CPS called on them by the school.
That sounds like the worst school ever. Is this a common thing? I read a lot of posts from people saying CPS can be called by the school if a child is late.







And they wonder why people want to homeschool...

I have never had them called on me, but I know literally hundreds of people who have. Wouldn't you know, they are all low-income or single parents. Rich parents abuse their kids just as often; they just don't have to be punished for it.

A few years ago where I live, there was a mother forcing her 11-year-old daughter to be a prostitute. A neighbor called CPS many times and nothing was done. Then another neighbor called and reported that the child was not attending school, and CPS came right over to the house. The girl was 12, and 6 months pregnant. That may have been prevented if CPS had intervened on the original call, which is a lot worse than a child not going to school.

Unassisted birth is not a crime. Neither is breastfeeding a 6-year-old. Not vaxing is prefectly legal. Why does CPS get to take children when no crimes were committed against them?

Their strategies seem to focus more on punishing the uneducated poor single mother instead of helping the child. Most of the time, the child gets placed in a home that is much worse.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Yes, Greaseball, I am a teacher and calling CPS is often considered as a remedy for students who are chronically late. I have also homeschooled.

I am in CA, and my when sister battled CPS her nonvaxing of her son was called into question in Family Court even though it is perfectly legal.

During one of my visits to the ER, I was being threatened with CPS by the attending doctor who asked about my son's vax status. I was visited by CPS six months later anyway. If I was such a terrible threat to my son's safety, why would they wait six months before checking up on me?

Like I said, I thought I had died and went to Hell each time. Nothing made any sense, so I played their game and got out of their line of fire.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Applejuice, when I lived in CA, I brought ds1 in for his vaxes about a month late (I don't vax anymore, but didn't know any better then) I believe it was for his 12month vaxes and I went in at 13 months or so. Anyway, the doctor threatened to call CPS as I was abusing my child by having him late on his vaxes!!! OMG! And in CA, you don't have to vax. What the hell is wrong with these idiots?! BTW, I was young and poor then.

On a positive note, I did have one positive CPS interaction. When I decided to go into dancing (stripping) when I was 18 and living on my own, my mom flipped out and told me she was going to call cps and have them take my ds1 away; and I was really concerned because she was a foster parent and knew alot of cps people. Anyway, I called cps and spoke to a worker, I told her my story and how I was all freaked out. She was cool, and laughed and told me that they would not investigate at all if they got a call like that. She was very reassuring.

It really makes me incensed that cps will intervene for being late to school, not vaxing, etc, while real abuse goes unchecked.

Kristi


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:

It really makes me incensed that cps will intervene for being late to school, not vaxing, etc, while real abuse goes unchecked.
I could agree with you on all but one point. Being late to school or not attending school is a parents responsibility to make sure their child does. My dd's father takes her in late all the time he doesn't take her when he doesn't "feel good" and I call the principle to be told we support the custodial parent. WTF??? First of all we have joint custody maybe you need a lawyer to read the files I sent you. But they see him as custodial because his address is used for school despite what our papers say. DESPITE the fact that the judge says noooo joint. Despite all of this and everything else she is still with him jointly and it's WRONG!!!! But the school won't help me, they won't call me when he sends her with out hat & gloves in the winter when she could be frost bit.

Soooo CPS is a joke the school system is a joke, FOC is a joke all the agencies are, but I really wish the school would call for these things because then I'd know she as safe with me and not with him.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Anyway, the doctor threatened to call CPS as I was abusing my child by having him late on his vaxes!!! OMG!
That's dumb...often when I've scheduled dd for an appointment well in advance, the office calls me and says the doctor won't be in that day after all.







: It's not the parents' fault if they don't do it on time.

I challenge anyone from CPS to explain how being late to school is harmful to a child.


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Being late to school and missing school does have harmful effects on a child they miss out on some of their education. I feel that is important I'm sorry if you don't. But that's is the way I feel.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

School is not the only place a child is educated. I'm sorry if you feel that it is. How will a child's future suffer because he was late to 3rd grade math a few times?

Adults are late to work a lot. Maybe someone should call the police.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

CPS takes kids away from poor, uneducated parents. sad but true, this is more so the case than CPS takes kids away from abusive parents. CPS misses alot of real abuse cases and takes away alot of kids from parents who just needed some help (money, support, parental classes)
I wish this wasn't true, but it is! I feel so fortunate because if CPS ever comes to our house the first call is to DH the second to our lawyer and that will be it. They won't be allowed int, the won't be allowed access period. DH's cousin has had numerous problems w/CPS that I 100% know I would not have. Why? Because we have $ (not a lot, but enough to get legal proteciton when we need it!).

Quote:

Being late to school and missing school does have harmful effects on a child they miss out on some of their education.
I would agree that "being late to school and missing school CAN have harmful effects" but not that it does. B & SIL took their kids out of school for three weeks to take them around the country--- I'm positive they learned more than in school. DD & DS will probably not go to school until college and I'm pretty sure they will be well educated.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

There are mothers here who are bfing 4- and 5-year-olds, and I bet they will never have to worry about CPS because they are middle-income professionals. But if ebf were being done by a former teen mom or very low income woman, that would be "abusive."







:

I don't think they can punish a false report because people are allowed to call anonymously.

Though we are poor, I am fortunate enough to be married. I bet that helps a lot. I hope I never see the day when someone tries to take my child away because they think they know more than I do.


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

My ex consitantly brings her late not just a few times, and I do educate my daughter at home as well but she gets a bulk of her education at school when she's missing tests that allow her to pass on I'm concerned and if you weren't concerned with that than I'd be surprised. I also want to point out she misses school because he is too "sick" to get out of bed so she'll miss school and roam the house by herself. She's gone to school without breakfast because again he was late, and so she misses part of class AND breakfast.

She also goes to school 1/2 the time with out proper clothing when she is with him. I have continuosly asked the school to call me when these things happen that I will bring up what is necessary. But that doesn't happen the school is also responsible as well as her father for the neglect of my child. Ohhh and the court system too.

Sometimes being consitantly late, or missing classes is a sign to an underlying issue like neglect.


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:

DD & DS will probably not go to school until college and I'm pretty sure they will be well educated.
If I could homeschool my child I would, now missing their homeschooling assignments won't that have a negative effect the same as missing school? She goes to public school so yes her missing school has a harmfull effect on her and her situation.


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## Liz (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sabrina's Mom_
*My ex consitantly brings her late not just a few times, and I do educate my daughter at home as well but she gets a bulk of her education at school when she's missing tests that allow her to pass on I'm concerned and if you weren't concerned with that than I'd be surprised. I also want to point out she misses school because he is too "sick" to get out of bed so she'll miss school and roam the house by herself. She's gone to school without breakfast because again he was late, and so she misses part of class AND breakfast.....*
I think your issue is with your husband. If you have joint custody it is up to you two to communicate. It is not the school's job to tell you your husband did not do his job.


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:

I think your issue is with your husband. If you have joint custody it is up to you two to communicate. It is not the school's job to tell you your husband did not do his job.
And what do you propose I do if I can't get it through his head? Because that is the case, then what I am supposed to let her go hungry, miss out on her education, worry that she'll get hurt while he sleeps the day away and she roams the house while she is SUPPOSED to be in school? I have offered my help to him when he is too "sick" I've tried everything. Now it is time for the school, & the government to help me out since he obviously doesn't care. Yes ideally since we have joint custody we should be able to communicate, but when one parent thinks he does nothing wrong and won't listen to what the other parent thinks might remedy the situation then yes I expect the school to help me out to better care for my child. Tell me why they won't call me when she's not dressed properly so I can bring up the proper things?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Sometimes parents can't do anything about the fact that their kids are late. What if the kid rides the bus, and then when he gets to school just runs around goofing off with friends? Why should the parent be punished for that?

I wonder how much time is taken away from real cases of abuse so CPS can handle school-related crap.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Totally OT:

Quote:

If I could homeschool my child I would, now missing their homeschooling assignments won't that have a negative effect the same as missing school?
:LOL We unschool and don't have assignments. I don't think it has a negative effect at all (and so far, our school district liason & pediatrician would 100% agree!). Oooh, I think my bias against "school/assignments/set hours" is beginning to show :LOL


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

The point is she's missing out on her education while you unschool your child is still getting an education learning through you and themselves. I am not knowlegeable on unschooling but I'm sure you do activities and things that help your child thrive, now what if they did nothing at all? Is that harmful? Or in your eyese is it not?

What I'm saying here is no one is helping me because she hasn't yet been seriously harmed. But 2 weeks ago she missed school again because he was "sick" and couldn't get out of bed she broke a picture frame and cut her foot slightly what I am saying is that it could have been much, much worse what if it were her wrist and she bled bad would he have woken up? I highly doubt it, esp since she was afraid to tell him she cut her foot and wraped toilet paper around her toe until she came to me that night and I cleaned it up, then called him and asked him to clean up the glass so she didn't get hurt again.

Why should they wait until she is seriously harmed? What will they tell me then if my child gets so seriously hurt she dies? Huh? Sorry????? That's just not acceptable.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

But the fact remains, IMO, that the problem is with a negligent parent not missing school, per se. Should something be changed? It appears so? Does that mean I think school tardiness or outright truancy should automatically put CPS into someones house? Not necessarily.

BTW, at least at my DD's age I don't believe that "doing nothing" is not-educational OR harmful.







We'll see how I feel in a few years :LOL


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

I don't know how old your dd is so I can't comment on that, but I find it hard to believe you don't have any educational toys or anything for her to play with.

Yes you are right the fact is he's a negligent parent, but the missing school is a problem because it is an indicator that something else may be going on.

Let me give you a story when I was in school I had a friend who constantly changed in the bathroom for gym behind a stall was always missing school. I had no idea she was being beaten and hiding the bruises, and her father keeping her from school when those bruises couldn't be covered. Until her father beat her soooo badly that she died. Now if someone had taken notice to the fact that she was missing so much school and question it she may be alive today.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Sabrina's Mom,
Are you documenting everything that her dad does? You really should; keep track of all the lost school, accidents, him being "sick" etc. I imagine that will give you ammo to try and get full custody.........Or also if you document it all, and then go to cps, they will listen.

I don't think cps should get involved if a kid is late or misses sometimes. But if the kid is late due to neglect/abuse, that is different. IMO, the school should be figuring out if the abscenses are an indicator of something else, by speaking with the parents and the child, and then if they aren't satisfied, they can call cps.

Kristi


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Kristi I do document everything and I've been to court over this and they all tell me that she hasn't been harmed yet. Unbelievable and if something horrible happens god forbid I swear I'm holding them all accountable including her father. Thankfully she's 6 and getting older so the possibility diwndles as I teach her how to best care for herself it's sad I have to do that though. And it's sad the school won't call me to bring her hat or gloves, they won't even allow me to send in a pair to keep in the office, no my child can freeze because they don't want to get involved.

*edited for spelling*


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

I don't know how old your dd is so I can't comment on that, but I find it hard to believe you don't have any educational toys or anything for her to play with.
Well I never said we didn't. But if she just wants to sit there doing "nothing" that is okay. She leads.

I'm just saying that tardiness/truacy is not *necissarily* an indicator of abuse and should not be treated as such.

JMO


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Sabrina's Mom,

How maddening! And it sounds like her school is pretty crappy, if they won't let you bring her gloves! My ds1 is allowed to call me anytime from school; and will call if he forgot his lunch or something.

I hope you can get something worked out; you are probably going to need to be really agressive if you want the school to change.

Kristi


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Continued tardiness/truancy in my eyes COULD be an indicator no it's not neccessarily (sp?) an indicator but it could be I had a friend who died because no one looked into it. No one ever questioned it and it should be questioned at least.


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

Well I have forced them to give me by law what they have to give me even w/out joint custody. Like report cards, he gets them then says he lost it or something so I don't see the absences, notes, notices about field trips ect... She has a great teacher who I got to agree to call me when anything special is going on so that I can send in treats or maybe volunteer if I can, and make sure the permission slips are signed so she doesn't miss out, her dad frequently forgets.







: I think maybe I will ask her if I can give her a set of hat & gloves she can keep in her desk for her. Even the latch key teacher helps me out but she's not affiliated with the school so there isn't anything she can do on that end.

Oh and TiredX2 I'm not too familar with unschooling but I was trying to make a point that your daughters education isn't being hinderded and mine is. I do teach her at home when she is with me too as a matter of fact she's above her level in everything, but if she continues to miss tests that are important as she goes to public schools she will be left behind to me that's unexceptable.


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## hannahlynnsmama (Feb 9, 2004)

I am a social worker who has been working for CPS for four years and wanted to add my perception. I agree that there are many times when CPS intervenes and it is to the family's disadvantage, but the majority of the cases we take are when there are serious problems in the family that put the children at risk. I read comments about CPS wanting to take younger kids because there is more money in it and that is totally ridiculous, the social worker doesn't get bonuses for placing children in foster care, the reason younger children may appear to be placed more often is because they are more at risk from harm than a teenager. A young child cannot protect themself or may have no other supports outside of the home.

Also, in regards to home birth- I had my first daughter at home two months ago and everyone in my work knew that- I have never heard of a child being removed for that reason. I know that there are times, however, I did have one case when we got involved the baby was born at home because the mother was a drug user and had her sixth child came out at home at six months- very different scenario than a mother who PLANS a homebirth and takes care of herself.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When I worked in mental health, a CPS worker came to tell us how to report to them. She said that priority was given to the youngest children, regardless of the complaint. She admitted that a 6-year-old who was late for school would be investigated long before a 10-year-old who was being molested at home.







She also said that teenagers are rarely investigated at all, because "they could just leave if they wanted to." (Yeah, right, and go where?)

She also admitted to there being quotas...this is in the US, BTW.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Greaseball:

You are correct.

When my teenage daughter was taken from me, she was placed with my two sisters. CPS did not have a contingent plan if these placements did not work for my daughter and actually these placements did not. I ended up taking her back in before I was supposed to and CPS did nothing about it. My daughter was back with me within three months. She was not supposed to be back in my care for a year, but the social worker quietly set up a court hearing and in another three months she was "allowed" back even though she had been there for three months prior to the hearing.

The night before the six month hearing, I caught my daughter with a man of majority age in her bedroom at midnight. I called the police, and they did nothing even though I held the guy there for interrogation. NOTHING! They called me a liar and told me to shut up. When I told CPS of the incident, the social worker hugged my daughter and said,"But she is a teenager!"

What is that supposed to mean?

WTF!

CPS still lorded over me for six more months accusing me of physical and mental abuse and drug abuse none of which were ever proven or disproven.


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## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

Quote:

I read comments about CPS wanting to take younger kids because there is more money in it and that is totally ridiculous, the social worker doesn't get bonuses for placing children in foster care
In NY state, the county does actually receive money when a child is adopted out after being taken away by CPS.

Quote:

Also, in regards to home birth- I had my first daughter at home two months ago and everyone in my work knew that- I have never heard of a child being removed for that reason.
I know a woman whose child was removed because she had a homebirth. She had a quick labor, and the baby arrived 5 minutes before the midwife (whose certified in our state to attend homebirths). The baby passed meconium before the birth and was sounding juicy, so the parents and the midwife decided to transfer to the hospital. They called 911. The EMTs arrived and used an adult respirator bag on this newborn baby. They forced too much air in the baby's lungs, which resulted in a hole in the baby's lungs. It also forced meconium into the lungs, and through the hole which led to an infection. The baby survived, but was taken from the parents. The judge's reasoning? The baby wouldn't have passed meconium prior to the birth had the baby been born in a hospital. According to the judge they could have seen a doctor and gotten an ultrasound prior to the delivery, and would have been able to predict the baby passing meconium. The midwife argued with the judge over this in court but apparantly some looney doc was spewing this shit to the judge and he believed it. This woman never got custody of her child back. The baby was eventually adopted out.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

They really need to have better qualifications for foster parents. You only have to be over 21, high school graduate, financially secure and have no criminal background (though sometimes that is not even checked). Meeting all those conditions does not guarantee one will be a good caretaker! I think they rely on the old belief that only financially unstable people will abuse children; therefore anyone with money will make a better parent.

What about writing an essay and submitting it to a large committee? That's what I had to do to get my mental health credential. What about being certified in childcare of all ages? These are only a few suggestions that would make a better foster parent.

A friend of mine had her child taken away because she was caught smoking pot. (She was also homeless.) The child was placed with a family who beat her. She reported it herself and nothing was done. I'd much rather have a parent who smoked pot than one who beat me.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*They really need to have better qualifications for foster parents. You only have to be over 21, high school graduate, financially secure and have no criminal background (though sometimes that is not even checked). Meeting all those conditions does not guarantee one will be a good caretaker! I think they rely on the old belief that only financially unstable people will abuse children; therefore anyone with money will make a better parent.
*
I can only speak for NH, but there is a lot more to it than that. You have to have an interview and answer all kinds of questions. You have to have references. You have to take courses and have both health and fire inspections. You also have to take courses to keep up your license. I think they do a pretty good job of screening people. They should screen their own workers as good. We were foster parents and a worker lied to us and put our kids in danger. Once we had two boys placed with us and the judge ordered them to go home with their mother. How we found out was the worker brought the mother, her daughter, and her sister to my home to get the boys.







I was pissed. I wasn't even home and if the mother wasn't kind enough to wait for me to return home I wouldn't have even been able to say goodbye. So yeah, I think CPS sucks.


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## Sabrina's Mom (Feb 4, 2004)

hannahlynnsmama OT but I wanted to know if we could chat sometime maybe you have some advice that would be useful for me maybe not but it sure would help on the CPS side you know?


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Sort OT, but I've gotta agree w/Ann Marie. We're in the process of getting licensed as foster parents, and there is alot to it








What you did mention, Greaseball, are the minimum requirements. I'm sure it does vary from state to state, and that some agencies screen better than others, but I can tell you that so far, mine is doing a great job! We just had our training, where we were given tons of info; as well as taught how to use "alternative" discipline like Nonviolent Communication, Love and Logic, etc; I found the training quite useful. And the application is a HUGE thick thing, with essay type questions about everything- like: How were you disciplined as a child? Did you find it effective? How will you parent differently? What do you think is an effective way to discipline? How did you and your spouse meet? How do you and your spouse resolve arguements? What is your most postive childhood memory? How do you get along with your sibilings? Would you/do you parent as you were parented? Why do you want to foster? etc, etc. It was quite a process to finish our application! And, dh and I had to EACH do one.

Then, we had to get physicals, statement of nonvax for the kids, records of the dogs rabies shots; car registration, car insurance, etc. Fingerprinted to check for criminal background........etc.

So, I think, if it's done correctly, the state I live in has a pretty good way of screening foster parents. I'm sure people fall through the cracks, and an overloaded licensing worker might not check into things enough.

We still need to have our home inspection.........someday we'll actually be licensed









Oh, and more OT- I so agree about the pot thing....I don't think kids should be removed for that.

Again, that's a case of the individual worker. I know that my former boss, way back, used to smoke. His son was home alone (he was 12), and the son's teacher had called the police because she thought he shouldn't be home alone (latchkey kid). Anyway, the police came to the house, looked around to make sure there was food and the place was clean, and that the son knew how to call 911, what do do in an emergency, etc. Anyway, during this, they found a pipe, obviously used for smoking pot. They didn't do anything!!! They let the dad know that they found it and confiscated it, and that was it. And that it was fine that his son was home alone while he was at work. Can you believe that? Maybe becuase my boss wasn't young and poor...........

Kristi


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## muldey (May 8, 2002)

I'm the one vote up there for a "founded" report.My ds was born at home unnassisted,and to make family happy,I called dd's ped to make a well baby appointment.This was Friday,July 13th,2001,the day ds was born(a little ironic,I know).All hell broke lose.the receptionist called 911,and 6 or so paramedics were in my hallway 5 minutes later.She had told them I was in labor.My son had been born hours earlier.They were upset that they had been lied to,and traced the call.It came up the drs office.They said congratulations to hubby and I,I signed a refusal of care form,and they left.Then the constant phone calls began.Nonstop.The dr,the juvinile detective,and the receptionist.We calmly told them we were well within our rights,our son was nursing very well and looked perfect,and if we had concerns we would be at the hospital.The dr said he would do what he needed to do,and 5 minutes later CPS was at the door.I didn't know my rights,and let her in.She acted very nice,saying our son looked great but to clear everything up could we please go with her to the hospital?We refused to go with her,but said we would follow her there.When we got up to the maternity ward,she informed us there was now a 72 hour hold on our son.She gave us her beeper number and said she would be able to talk to her supervisor and get that lifted by morning.(we later found out her supervisor was on vacation,this was one of MANY,MANY lies)Gabe was examined by the nurse,and we refused vit k and eye drops.She said he looked wonderful and they gave us a private room(I was not a patient,so they did not have to do this.The hospital was actually on our side through this,for the most part).The ped who made the CPS call came in,and demanded to examine our son.I should have said no and requested a different dr,but I didn't know I could do that at the time.He refused to allow us in the room,so we watched from the nursery window.He came out with our son,and said he needed to talk with us.We went into our room,and he told us he heard a heart murmur.He made us feel like Gabe was going to die.He said he would need all kinds of tests.We demanded a 2nd opinion,and told him to never lay another hand on either of our children.He gave us a very evil smile and left our room.The 2nd opinion came in late that night,and said she heard the murmur as well,but that many babies have them and they clear up on their own,but she would order an echocardiagram for the morning.She then tried to force the vit k and eye drops on us.We refused,and she called CPS to force it.They actually refused,saying emergency meds only.
Hubby later overheard her in the hallway telling a nurse that if they ever see Gabe alone,to administer them anyway.Lovely,huh?
Sat morning he had an echo,and was diagnosed with a congenital heart defect,Tetralogy of Fallot.Another dr told us this.I screamed at him,and he was great about it.He sat there and took it,then reassuringly told us that we did not cause this.Regardless of where he would have been born,he would have had it.I had had an ultrasound,and it should have been found but it wasn't.We decided he would be our new ped.
They were amazed that Gabe had no other symptoms.His oxygen levels were perfect,he was nursing wonderfully,and he was doing great.They told us nothing would be done now,but he would need open heart surgery at some point.We were devastated.
The CPS worker barged into our room shortly after the dr left.I had the door closed and the curtain pulled,and she opened the door and the curtain without knocking or even announcing herself.I was nursing and exposed.She gave me a very dirty look,but didn't even look away as I covered myself.She them started in that we didn't care about or love our son,and that he was now theirs.She said he would go to foster care.She also said he would now be drug tested.We were pissed,and demanded our rights.She said we had none,everything would be done regardless of what we said(I later learned their was no court order for this. I also learned this hospital routinley drug tests EVERY baby.This is why my dd's poop diapers were taken(she was born there),too.I was told by the nurse later on that the hospital does not report pot ,just hard drugs,because the nurses think it is ridiculous that they even do this without the parents' consent).I told her very rudely to get out of our room.The hospital social worker was with her,and she left too.5 minutes later the hospital sw knocked on our door,and asked if she could please speak with us.We let her in,and she immediatly apologized for the CPS worker's behavoir.She said she would try to help us,but didn't know what she could do.
On Monday the hold was supposed to be up at 1pm.At noon as we were packing ot go home,the sw came running in and told us an exparte order to take our son was being faxed as we speak.We all ran to the desk,and we were shown the order(we were not supposed to see it).The dr who made the CPS call had signed it.The bastard said we were medically neglecting our son,that he was getting no medical care!!HE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL!!!!
We couldn't go home.I was a hysterical mess.I started calling lawyers,finally finding one who would see us that week.We were served the papers for court that week.First for Gabe.They were served to my Dad,since we were at the hsopital with Gabe.Medical neglect was the only charge.No reasons listed.We had to be in court the following Monday at 9am.
then the papers for dd were served.My Dad got these too.He flipped.He gave my Mom money and told her to get Kasia out of there,NOW.He was almost crying(I have NEVER seen my Dad cry.Even after his Mom died,who he was very close to)and he brought the papers to us.The charge was neglect for her.They were not going for custody.The foster care worker told me it was because she was up to date on her shots.
Gabe never went to foster care.His ped kept him in the hospital,so we could be with him 24/7.By now he was getting formula supplements.I had to be with my dd(how do you chose between your own children?!?),and with the stress and the fact that I only had a very small cheap pump,I wasn't producing enough milk for him.this still hurts me to this day.Had we been left alone,I'm sure he would still be bf.
We went to court on Monday,with our lawyer,who we didn't meet until then(we met her partners).She screwed us.She went in and spoke to CPS without our permission,and agreed that we should have a home interview and inspection.We went before the judge,who wanted to send our son home!!!CPS said our lawyer had already agreed to the inspection,and he couldn't go against that.I couldn't stop crying.I had to wait until Thurs for the inspection.It went well,and Gabe came home that Friday,2 weeks to the day of his birth.Before coming home,we were told he needed a hep b vax.We refused,since we were not going to vax him(we had stopped Kasi's too).We were basically told he wouldn't come home without it.Billy caved and signed.I couldn't stop crying.I was so afraid of the effect it could have on his heart.

I'll finsh this later(it will be shorter,I promise!!!).Gabe has an appointment in a little while,and I have to clean this house and shower.


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## hannahlynnsmama (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*In NY state, the county does actually receive money when a child is adopted out after being taken away by CPS.







*
What I meant, is that the individual social worker who handles the case does not have any reason to detain one child and not another, except for wanting to do her job, which is to protect children. If the county receives money for it, I never see a penny, so that would no influence me in any way.

The system is not perfect and somethings can definately be influenced by who is personally handling the case, but most social workers I know want to do what it best for the child, which the majority of the time is to help the family so the child can remain there. However, there are other times when it is essential to remove the child and there is a definite need for good foster parents. I salute any of you who are interested in becoming foster parents- the children need you.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

I haven't had to deal with these people, but my sister has.

She is below working poor. She works part time in a fast food place and rents a terrible third floor walk up in the downtown of the city where she lives. We only found out two months ago that for a large part of last year they had no electricity! She didn't tell anyone. They just recently got a phone and seem to be doing well now that she will accept some money from our grandmother.

She is now at risk for losing her children because a second complaint was filed against her. She doesn't have much hope in her opinion.

The first complaint was filed because a dog bit her daughter. I was amazed. Nothing happened to the dog, but she was chastised because she didn't prevent it from happening. The call was placed by her really nasty sister in law.

This most recent event occurred in October. She was getting ready to go somewhere when she realized she needed something in another room. Her 5 year old son walked out the door and down the block. He was found with an 11 year old neighbor kid. Someone called the Police and reported a child wandering the street. They took him and placed him in CYS custody. She didn't see him again for a month.

Her hearing is on Wednesday and she is just beside herself. Her husband is in jail (a whole other story!!!!!) and she has to rely on the public defender. She is dirt poor though everyone is trying to help as much as they can. I have to say at this point that there has been a lot of bad blood between her and the family and only recently have some members begun speaking to her again. That alone is a book.

Anyway, I have given her suggestions like document your good chare of the children. Bring medical records and report cards that show attendance. I also told her to clean her house within an inch of its life. I have never been there but have heard she is not the best housekeeper so I made the suggestion. I have also been given some names of people to call to see if they would be willing to speak on her behalf. I can't tell her where I got them from because that family member, while she has been helping them anonymously all along, is not ready to speak with her directly, though with her influence has been trying to make things happen behind the scenes.

I offerred to take the kids if it boils down to her going to jail . She really thinks this will happen. When we spoke she cited another case she knew about where nothing was done by CYS and there was a definite abuse going on. She said she thought that it was because that other family had money.

Does anyone have a suggestion on what we can do or what to look for?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

We went into our room,and he told us he heard a heart murmur.He made us feel like Gabe was going to die.He said he would need all kinds of tests.
My dd had a heart murmur and our ped said almost all babies have it when born and that it means nothing. We did the eco anyway. I have a heart murmur as well and it has never been a problem.

I guess this can be a lesson to any of us here who plan uc's - don't take your child to the ped or hospital immediately! Wait until the normal 2-week checkup and then make the appointment.

I know what people mean about helping families vs. removing the children. I know of another case where a child was removed because she was overweight. The state did not attempt to obtain diet counseling for the family, they just took the child.

My friend who lost her child for smoking pot later did get her child back, but then three times in one week the child was removed and then returned to her mother. How exactly does this help the child? On Monday, the home is unsafe, on Tuesday, she gets to go back, and on Wednesday, it's unsafe again?! The reason for removal was that the mom was late to a parenting class. (Of course, CPS workers can be late to appointments anytime they want, their time is "valuable."







: )

I know a lot of mothers who have lost their children due to "failure to protect." This happens when the dad is violent and the mom can't physically stop him. Then she loses the kids, and the kids generally end up with the dad's parents, who of course let the dad see them whenever he wants.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Twenty-four years ago when I had my first baby at home, I was told to be sure my pediatrician was home birth friendly. There were horror stories told then about perfectly healthy home born babies being ordered to be given spinal taps by unfriendly and non-homebirth sympathetic pediatricians because they were born outside the confines of the hospital.

Always know who you are dealing with.

With CPS, you never know who or what they are or what you are up against.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Moving to Parenting Issues!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Does anyone know of a book that explains how to deal with CPS, your rights, what to do if they show up, etc? I know of a few materials, but they are written by pro-spanking types.









It would be nice if there was something especially for us natural parenting types that could focus on home/unassisted birth, nonvaxing, long-term breastfeeding, homeschooling, "medical neglect," etc.


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## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

I recently bought this book, which inspired this thread:

No Law Against Mercy


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I have only had experience from the other side, and I was definitely not impressed with the response I got from CPS. After many sleepless nights agonizing about calling CPS I finally called, gave my name and phone number, and requested that the baby's caseworker call me. No one ever bothered to call me back and hear the information I had.

It's the only time I have ever called (or even considered calling CPS) about somthing, and I was just shocked that my called was not returned.

I discovered about a week later that CPS had taken custody of the newborn (she had not left the hospital when I called, in fact is still in the hospital) from the parents (thank goodness!!), so the baby is not in danger at this time.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*They really need to have better qualifications for foster parents. You only have to be over 21, high school graduate, financially secure and have no criminal background (though sometimes that is not even checked). Meeting all those conditions does not guarantee one will be a good caretaker! I think they rely on the old belief that only financially unstable people will abuse children; therefore anyone with money will make a better parent.*








T You know, Greaseball, sometimes I read your posts and I just don't know who you're talking about. It took this thread for me to finally get it: You must live in a different state from me.







Doh! Seriously, I wonder if you don't live in the worst state in the Union to be a crunchy sort of parent. Ick! That's got to be a total bummer.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

If all these stories are true, then I'm glad I live in Canada. I've been a foster parent for 6 years, and my parents fostered in Ireland for 15 years, and I can safely say that the only kids we have ever taken in have been in genuine need.

And please stop saying all foster parents are abusive. Greaseball, you and another poster, whose name escapes me, have both said this, and that kids are more likely to be abused in foster care. Please post your links to where you got this information, as I would really like to see it.


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## indie (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*The baby survived, but was taken from the parents. The judge's reasoning? The baby wouldn't have passed meconium prior to the birth had the baby been born in a hospital.*
WTF!? My baby passed meconium prior to birth and she was born in a hospital.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

You know, Greaseball, sometimes I read your posts and I just don't know who you're talking about. It took this thread for me to finally get it: You must live in a different state from me. Doh! Seriously, I wonder if you don't live in the worst state in the Union to be a crunchy sort of parent. Ick! That's got to be a total bummer.
I live in Oregon. It's probably not better or worse than any other state. Of course every area will have both "good" and "bad" foster parents.

Someone else mentioned the qualifications were just the minimums, and there actually was more work involved in getting accepted as a foster parent. That's probably true - I was quoting an ad in the paper which probably would list only the minimum.

However, there is a shortage of foster parents in general, which may lead some areas to accept more of the not-as-good people. In Florida, where it's supposedly the worst in the nation, they have kids waiting in jail cells (kids without criminal histories) because there are so few available foster parents. These kids stay in jail for up to 6 months before being placed.

When I worked in mental health with literally hundreds of families who had kids in foster care, a large majority of them reported abuse or substandard care. Some of them did not. But there is an extra problem with good foster homes - a family I knew fostered a 5th grade girl. The family was very nice and not abusive, but the girl couldn't believe someone would be nice to her without wanting sex so she ran away.

Of course, plenty of children are abused by their biological parents too.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greaseball_
> *Does anyone know of a book that explains how to deal with CPS, your rights, what to do if they show up, etc? I know of a few materials, but they are written by pro-spanking types.
> 
> 
> ...


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

However, there is a shortage of foster parents in general, which may lead some areas to accept more of the not-as-good people. In Florida, where it's supposedly the worst in the nation, they have kids waiting in jail cells (kids without criminal histories) because there are so few available foster parents. These kids stay in jail for up to 6 months before being placed.

I am in Florida. Granted, you always hear people comparing notes on CPS from state to state.

All states are just as bad, but Florida managed to get into the news more









I just started on this thread, so I will introduce myself.

I am a parent's advocate with CPSWatch, Inc and Families Best Interest of Florida (run by the Fla state director of CPSWatch)

I was raided twice by DCF and our Police for false allegations.

The most recent was this past Christmas. Yes, they showed up xmas day for no reason, and raided the home with guns drawn the next day.

I have put all of the documentation online at

http://www.dcfwatch.com/decemberdcf/journal.html

CPS is awful, and in my opinion should be done away with. We should have department's of children to take care of children who need foster care, but removal should be subsequent to an arrest IMO, something done by cops.

These agencies receive funding based on children IN CARE. I don't know of any states that get funding for preventitive services, and if they do it is not much.

Further each agency receives "bonus" federal funding for children they can adopt out, which is why the younger the child, the quicker they act. They love allegations made against infants, as they are worth more money.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by applejuice_
*When CPS came to the door to investigate my sister because of a false report made by an angry neighbor, the Burbank Police told her she had to let them in.

Keep in mind that the local police do not care about your rights either. Nor do they know any thing about your rights in this situation neither.

In the above post, I do not believe that you even have to agree to have your child photographed. This could just be a negotiating point, however.

With photographs, these can be manipulated in a laboratory, so I would not trust these people with photographs of my children.*
You do not have to allow them in per your 4th amendment right to privacy, and your 14th amendment right to due process.

they can always go to court to seek an order allowing access to your childrenand your home, but they rarely get access to the home, and even then you can prevent evidence in your defense.

Calabretta v Floyd (9th fed. cird. 1999) was an awesome case for this. a social worker and a cop coerced entry by threats, and they subsequently settled for $150,000

Amanda James-Faulkner
http://www.dcfwatch.com


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*you guys bash cps alot and i'm really not sure why.*
people tend to dislike things that violate them.

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*
the worst that can happen is they will send me to parenting classes. i have no prior record of anything. if you are house has food in it, your children are clean why not pee in the cup? go along with them. and also children can be interviewed alone...*
the worst that can happen si they steal your children, terminate your rights, and you can never see your children again.

You don't need a prior record. You are NOT afforded the same rights in civil / dependency court as you are in criminal.

And you shouldn't have to pee in a cup. You have the right to decline.

Children interviewed alone is not good, how do you know what was REALLY said? These are still people, and they are not immune from lying.

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*
also, what is the point of an unassissted birth? wouldn't you want a mid-wife present to determine if medical intervention was neccessary?*
The point is left to the woman with the choice, not us. The point is we are entitled to the right to make that choice, without government interference.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Regarding books on this subject, I have read -

by Dean Tong,

Ashes to Ashes...Families to Dust - False Accusations Of Child Abuse: A road Map for Survivors

the list of lawyers in the back, I have never had any luck with, however.

by Mary Pride,

The Child Abuse Industry -Outrageous Facts About Child Abuse & Everyday Rebellions Against A System That Threatens Every North American Family.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Amanda, I read your website. I have a question for you: were you an advocate with CPSWatch before the CPS complaint? I am wondering if there is a component of vengefulness for your professional work in this case.

Also a component of STUPIDITY on the part of CPS and the police! You are not someone they should think they can mess with!

(I admire your incredibly clean and tidy home!







)


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by captain optimism_
*Amanda, I read your website. I have a question for you: were you an advocate with CPSWatch before the CPS complaint? I am wondering if there is a component of vengefulness for your professional work in this case.

Also a component of STUPIDITY on the part of CPS and the police! You are not someone they should think they can mess with!

(I admire your incredibly clean and tidy home!







)*
Yes, I began dcfwatch.com in October of 2002. I was harassed for 9 months in 2002 for refusing to do well checks and vaccinate my children







. I promised DCF they would curse the day that they met me, and I tend to follow my promises.

My work for families is a major component of this malicious and harassing investigation. When I pulled my DCF file in January 2004, over 50 pages of the 120 page file IS print outs of my website







. Now tell me you're not retaliating?

Further, if you go to www.dcfwatch.com/bumperstickers.html or find it on the menu, there is a nice sticker of eeyore. Eeyore takes up the right 1/3 area of the back window on my minivan. My vehicle is known by every caseworker in the tri county area, as my husband drives in that van 35 hours a week in our city







.

Don't admire my clean and tidy home, hon hehe... it is clean, but not always tidy.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Amandajf:

Wow!

Good for you!

You did an excellent job!

You knew your rights and advocated for yourself very well...

Congratulations.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

thank you.

I owe it all to CPSWatch and Desere Clabo, the State director cpswatch, national dir. families best interest.

that, and i made a point to learn this crap so when they did it again i built up the lawsuit from day one... hence why i was calling people during the raid so i could have witnesses that "heard" the goings on


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

When my youngest child was ten years old, he fell off his scooter and broke his left arm.

I took him to the county emergency hospital as we had no insurance at the time, and he told his story to the doctor who looked at the X-ray and told me "the nature of the break in his bone is inconsistent with his story".

He looked at me and said that the break in his arm was more consistent with a baton beating, which he saw in Seattle during the WTO riots.

I never had CPS come out and see me nor did I see any SW in the hospital, but his arm was set and nothing else was said.

I thought this was a very rude comment. I saw him making phone calls at the desk in the ER, so I do not know WTF else was going on.

My son is now 12 and I often wonder about this.

I have many other stories to tell. CPS never helped me, but they have bothered me alot.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I wrote to Mothering Magazine early in 1993 asking them to publish a letter I had written about an incident I had with my youngest, then a baby learning to walk.

He was in the care of another person when he had fallen and something else fell on him, and smacked his face; I feared he broke his nose or jaw so I rushed to the ER, where nothing was done for him (since the mouth is considered the domain of the dentist, is therefore dirty and offlimits and is not for an MD), but I was detained with seven LAPD surrounding me, calling me names and keeping me from my baby for over ten hours. He bled the entire time.

For some reason I have been to the ER several times with my youngest, but I never went with my older three.

It was never put in the magazine. I think if things like this could have been written about earlier, perhaps things could have been better for you in 2003.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

My dd broke her ankle when she was 20 months. It was a spiral fracture, and the CPS handbook says that those are very rare and most likely caused by abuse. We were very lucky not to be questioned.

Fortunately, there were about 20 witnesses who were "upstanding community members" if it ever came up.


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm new here. I am currenty resolving a investigation with CPS. I noticed a round sqishy place on my baby girl's head(at the time she was 7 months)I knew that she had fallen, but when I checked her she didn't have even a red spot(hours later I noticed it was squishy). I should probably say that she NEVER cries. She can get hurt,wake up, need something, she just doesn't cry. I called the MD(it was labor day weekend) and was brushed off and told to bring her in on Tuesday.
I did, and they took x rays and said she was fine. Then, thursday I got a call back from the Md's office stating that the radiologist had reviewed her films, and disagreed. I was worried, and took her back at their request to get a cat scan. The cat scan showed that she had a large temprall fracture on the left side of her head.
I was SO upset. My sister was with me because my Dh was out of town. I could tell that something was wrong, because non of the doctors would talk to me about the injury. I had my sister go outside, and call my dad(an attorney). He came down to the hospital, but they had already posted an officer outside my door incase I tried to leave with my baby, and yes, they can make you stay or keep your child without you. We stayed overnight and were interviewed repeatedly. We both(my Dh came back into town)were read our rights and gave sworn statements.
My dad told me I should try to cooperate so as not to look guilty of anything. As the day wore on though, it became very clear that I was the person they suspected of this injury. They would not accept any of my possible explinations for her injury. When we left the hospital DHR and the police came to my home, and photographed and measured everything. Then they placed us under a "care plan" in which I had to be supervised at all times with my daughter, by an approved list of people. The supervision phase of our investigation ended after 7 weeks, but the criminal investigation is still open. It has been a living nightmare that I don't think I will ever get over. My dad said Last week, that with the backwards logic that they use, I should not cooperate with them ever again. They simply are not reasonable, logical people, nor is the system they work under. They have called twice now, wanting me to bring her in for more test. I said absolutely not. I probably will never walk through the door of an er or md's office again, as my baby is now listed on the national abuse registry and I fear we would have to relive this entire experience. Anyway-that's my experience with them.-Jen


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Jenifer,

that is so unfortunate. We never advocate waiving any rights when it comes to CPS.

My site is listed, drop me an email if you think I can help.

Hehe, and tell your dad welcome to the dependency system







What type of law does he practice?


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

as my baby is now listed on the national abuse registry
Is there a national registry? I thought it was state only...


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

My dad practices civil and contract law. Honestly, when this happened we were all in a state of shock. I didn't actally wave my rights, I was just trying to be cooperative because I thought it might help. I didn't. They really are without reason. They pretty much made up their minds that I did it and then wouldn't accept an alternative answer. We kept thinking that after reveiwing her history and all of the test, they would see that she is clearly not an abused child. No logic previaling at all. I really just want this to go away. -Jenifer


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

There is a national registry
National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System (NCANDS)-frightening huh?


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

BTW in AL CPS WILL NOT and does not have to by law give you any of the investigation notes or materials. Nor do they have to supply you with an official document stating that your case has been closed. They are pretty much above the law and without boundaries(at least in the county I live in)-not for much longer anyway-Jenifer


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## muldey (May 8, 2002)

Jenifer,
I am so sorry this has happened to you!!CPS is without reason.In my case the dr who reported us said our son was getting no medical treatment,and he was in the hospital!!It was an obvious malicious lie,and they still took our son.The dr should have been charged with a false report,but no,he's still very much practicing medicine and probably doing this to other parents.The clinic he works for is taking over most of the ped offices in my city(and working on the state as well!!).They are also in the middle school and a couple of elementary schools.There was a poster in one of the clinics that advertised that they were in the schools,and it said for parents to sign up for their services,so that when their child is sick they can still send them to school!!







One of the many reasons I will homeschool!!!
What agravates me is everyone I know with kids still uses this clinic.No one will listen to what happened to us,they all think that it won't happen to them.This clinic also profits from CPS,as all foster kids in the area are REQUIRED to go there for everything,including dental.They also run the WIC offices.
We travel an hour for our ped now.

As for pt 2 of my story,I'll make this very short,Gabe did ok after the hep b vax.We went to court again,with the same lawyer(stupid mistake!!).She again agreed with CPS before seeing the judge.The judge wanted to dismiss the case!!!My lawyer had already agreed to let CPS stay in our lives until after Gabe's surgery.The judge was very upset,and set a date,Dec 7th,2001,for dismissal.He looked at CPS and very firmly said "this WILL be dismissed on this date".
Gabe had his surgery much earlier than expected,at 2.5 months.He still had no symptoms other than the murmur.He did very well and was home in 5 days.We still had to go through CPS hell,they were trying to force us to vax.We even went on the local news, thanks to a friend,saying CPS was trying to force a family with religious objections to vax(it's more phylisophical,but that's not an option in our state).They backed down immediatly on that issue.Finally on Dec 7th the case was dismissed,but will forever be on our record.
We thought it was over,but shortly after dd fell in the bathtub,and hit her eyebrow on the faucet.She ended up with a blackeye,but begged to go to preschool,so we sent her.The school nurse called CPS,saying dd's eye was swollen shut and she couldn't see.Right after she got home,CPS was at the door again.The first thing the investigator said was that her eye was not swollen shut,bruised yes,but nothing like the report stated.She wanted to drop it then and there,but her supervisor old ehr to make us go to the hospital and see the state drs.We refused this,and offered to bring her to her own ped.They accepted this,and the case was dropped the next week when they recieved the drs report.They made him check for sexual abuse!!I can only imagine what the state drs would have done to my baby.I later was told by a friend who volunteered at the school that the nurse told her she made the call because we don't vax,and she wanted our kids taken away from us.Kasia never went back,and my many phone calls to the director were never returned.The school still owes us money for the tuition we paid in advance(not much,but still).
Thankfully it has been over 2 years and we have not been bothered again,but I still live in fear of this everyday.I always have my downstairs door locked,and everytime someone knocks on it I start to shake and sometimes I will even take the kids into one room and hide.I just can't go through that again.I know my rights now,but after everthing that happened(my dh was also recently beat by the local police for no reason) I know they won't care about our rights.I do feel a little better as the kids get older,since I know they will consider them hard to adopt out and may not go for custody.I think I will always be paranoid even when my children have children of their own.

Amandajf,
You are doing an excellent job.A friend had tried to set up a RI CPS victims group,but it never went very far.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System (NCANDS)
So who goes into this registry? Everyone who is investigated, from every state? Or just the states with registries, or what? How exactly does it work?


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

I know, it scars you for life. We were given a hard time about not vaccinating also. I told them it was not the law, and I was choosing not to for religious reasons, and they backed down on that issue. They didn't take my children, but the threat was always there, and still is if the criminal investigation doesn't go away. I'm keeping our passports current(just in case)just kidding, sort of.-Jenifer


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

From what I have been told by several people including our social worker, it is the states that have registries, and they filter into a national data base. Our baby is listed by name, and we are listed as "parents of a previously abused child from an unknown source". That doesn't sound guilty at all. huh?(sarcastictly speaking)-Jenifer


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I'd imagine living with this fear makes a lot of parents avoid the doctor altogether.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

registry?
Is there a way you can look up your name?


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by muldey_
*Jenifer,
not been bothered again,but I still live in fear of this everyday.I always have my downstairs door locked,and everytime someone knocks on it I start to shake and sometimes I will even take the kids into one room and hide.I just can't go through that again.I know my rights now,but after everthing that happened(my dh was also recently beat by the local police for no reason) I know they won't care about our rights.I do feel a little better as the kids get older,since I know they will consider them hard to adopt out and may not go for custody.I think I will always be paranoid even when my children have children of their own.
*
I feel your pain. I never lost any of my children, but i still have a panic attack when I hear a knock on the door. I still have nightmares.

Are you being treated? I tried buspar and xanax, but they make me feel awful, and then i'm loopy while still panicking!


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## jenifersimpson (Feb 12, 2004)

No, I can't look my own name up. The list is only available to hospitals, social services depts. ect.-This is what they told us anyway.
I have been on Zoloft for a few months, it seems to be helping the depression. I am not only anything for panic attacks, although I do have them. I have learned some "behavioral methods" of trying to control them because I wanted to be on as little meds as possible since Catherine is still nursing quite a lot. Therapy is helping a lot, and I keep holding on to the idea that while this is on record until she turns 18, we will be moving out of this county. At least I won't have to deal with this group ever again.-Jenifer


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

RE: the National Registry

...is linked to your social security number. When you go into the ER, and you fill out forms, you are asked for your SS#, and this links the hospital staff to it.

This was supposedly not the original intent of the SS#, but it is being used against all of us now.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Is it just "indicated" reports listed in that database, or everyone ever investigated?


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## greenluv (Jul 26, 2002)

This has been an interesting as well as timely thread.

I have a friend who is under the threat of having CPS called on her family due to public school attendance laws. Her child was admitted to the hospital today with some illness as yet unknown to the Dr's.

The school has been using this threat for the last week and half. She has to send a sick child to school only to be called to come pick him up a couple of hours later! She has given Dr's notes to the school, which they refuse to recognize. It's such a mess for them to deal with. When I spoke with my friend earlier, she was conderned because her other 2 children are with family for the weekend. She is afraid that if she needs family to care for the other 2 kids into next week that the school will follow through and report her to CPS. It seems to be a no win situation.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

I would simply make sure she reads the parent's guide and follows it. Duplicate her documentation, and store originals for preservation. If they call social workers, speak with them and let them know the situation, but don't disclose the location of the children or let her interview them.

Show documentation from doctors, and explain that her services are not needed.

What state is she in?

Some states don't consider truancy to be child abuse anyway, suich as mine.


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## greenluv (Jul 26, 2002)

From what I understand this is a fairly new Arkansas law.

I personally know of one other parent who was givin the run around when dealing with a sick child. This other mother knew her rights and didn't allow the school system to push her around. I thought it was great when she showed up with a Dr's note as well as her child's dated chest x-rays proving pneumonia. Unfortunately, the school insisted this child attend school. This mother had experience with CPS here so she'd been through the system before. I definitely don't want to get involved with the CPS system here.

My other friend (the one I originally posted about) is supposed to call me tonight and I shall pass on your advice to her. I feel this is the public school system bullying parents with a low income by assuming a lower income equals low intelligence.

This mom also has other issues with an abusive bus driver sending her child home in tears more than once. Her calls and complaints to the supervisor have gone unanswered. I think she needs to prepare to homeschool, then possibly slap the school and bus driver with a lawsuit. I'm not sure how that would work-I would be fearful of retaliation. I'm so incredibly angered by this situation I could spit nails!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I wonder if there is a way one can check with the school of her choice to see what their position is on calling CPS. But is any school going to admit they do it for stupid stuff?

I understand that lateness can be a sign of abuse or neglet, but I bet most of the time it isn't. Another sign of abuse can be that the child has lots of new toys - the abuser is trying to buy the child's silence - but how many schools would call CPS because of that?

I wonder if it's more common in public schools vs. private schools?


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by greenluv_
*han once. Her calls and complaints to the supervisor have gone unanswered. I think she needs to prepare to homeschool, then possibly slap the school and bus driver with a lawsuit. I'm not sure how that would work-I would be fearful of retaliation. I'm so incredibly angered by this situation I could spit nails!*

Rule # 1.

Do not make phone calls when it comes to ANYTHING important.

Pick up a cheap $70 fax machine, and use it. set it up to automatically generate transmission reports after each fax, so you have proof you sent what to whom when

always do writing.

do ask friends to proof read.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I wonder if there is a way one can check with the school of her choice to see what their position is on calling CPS. But is any school going to admit they do it for stupid stuff?

I understand that lateness can be a sign of abuse or neglet, but I bet most of the time it isn't. Another sign of abuse can be that the child has lots of new toys - the abuser is trying to buy the child's silence - but how many schools would call CPS because of that?

I wonder if it's more common in public schools vs. private schools?*
The problem here is people call in for mere signs, but fail to allege actual abuse.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

In most states in the union, CA is one, teachers and health care providers are obligated by law to call at the first sign of any neglect or abuse.

There is no other responsibility here except to call and report suspected neglect or abuse.

CPS goes out and investigates.







:

And then the fit hits the shan!









Good luck.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Doeas anyone have an answer to this question?

Quote:

Is it just "indicated" reports listed in that database, or everyone ever investigated?


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I do not know for sure, but I do think that if you have several small things happen all at once, they come out and investigate.

I had a friend whose children went through, in one month, several little accidents that required medical attention. She went to different hospitals since these events happened in different locations, so she was not trying to hide anything deliberately, and she was rudely paid a visit by CPS.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm still waiting on the backup/stats on foster parents being more abusive....


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

From me, you mean? Or someone else? I think I mentioned that mine came from personal knowledge of equal numbers of foster and non-foster children, literally hundreds of people, as well as what was learned in some of my counseling classes.

Maybe you could do the same kind of informal research?

It's hard to give stats when they are not websites. I do list books for stats on other things, but I doubt anyone goes off and buys them just because someone on this board mentioned them.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*It's hard to give stats when they are not websites. I do list books for stats on other things, but I doubt anyone goes off and buys them just because someone on this board mentioned them.*








T







: No, most people probably don't go out and buy them, but some of us go to the library on a regular basis.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Irishmommy_
*I'm still waiting on the backup/stats on foster parents being more abusive....*
CPSWatch's site is down (CPS keeps hacking it)... so i can't provide the actual data page.

you can search for the federal stats on child abuse in the gov't sites.

children are ten times more likely to be abused in foster care, and 5.26 times more likely to be murdered in care than in the general population.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Irishmommy_
*I'm still waiting on the backup/stats on foster parents being more abusive....*
the stats

http://www.cpswatch.com/oldsite/stats/

Source: All data taken from Child Maltreatment 1997: Reports From the States to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System and the 1997 AFCARS Report unless otherwise noted.

NATIONAL DATA

Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. 2.1 percent of all child fatalities took place in foster care. While this may seem like a relatively low number, we must consider the contrast in population between children in the general population versus children in foster care. In 1997, there were nearly 71 million children in the general population (99.6%), but only 302 thousand in state care (.4%) in state care. As state care is supposed to be a 'safe haven', the number of fatalities should be less or at least equal to what it is in the general population of children. By this standard, there should have been less than .4% of child fatalities occurring in foster care, however, there was 5.25 times that amount. (31 states reporting)

Children were abused and neglected 3 times more often by state caregivers than by Parents. Fifteen children out of every thousand were abused or neglected in state care, while only 5 children out of every thousand were abuse or neglected by their parents. (31 states reporting)

Eleven percent of all children placed in foster care were NOT victims of abuse or neglect. Two percent (12,054) of children whose reports of abuse or neglect were unsubstantiated were placed in foster care anyway. (14 states reporting) What might this number be if all states had reported? In these terrible cases, children experience needless emotional abuse and trauma due to failure to conduct a proper investigation prior to separating children from their parents.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Thank you. However, the standards are different for each. For instance, if I swat my bio dd on the bum, it's not "abuse" as far as CPS in general is concerned, but if I do the same thing to a foster child it is.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Irishmommy_
*Thank you. However, the standards are different for each. For instance, if I swat my bio dd on the bum, it's not "abuse" as far as CPS in general is concerned, but if I do the same thing to a foster child it is.*
Right, but murder is murder. Still stands that according to the Fed gov't kids are murdered 5+ times more often in foster care than at home, swats on the bum aside.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

For instance, if I swat my bio dd on the bum, it's not "abuse" as far as CPS in general is concerned, but if I do the same thing to a foster child it is.
Is it abuse according to the child? I think that's what is most important. I don't think a child would report spanking unless she felt it was abusive.








T
There was a case in the Alabama public schools where a 7-year-old boy was spanked so severely by a teachers he had to go to the emergency room. The mother tried to press charges, but was told it was perfectly legal for a teacher to do this, though illegal for a parent.









This was posted somewhere in Activism or Learning at School, if anyone wants to look.


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by MamaChel_
*I live in fear every day that CPS will once again come and destroy my family and there is nothing I can ever do to stop them.*
Me too - when I was a child I was taken from my family and separated from my brothers. It was an absolute nightmare.

Now I have a wonderfully strong-willed 3 yo daughter who really lets the world know when she is upset! She has been struggling with hitting and spitting lately. The other day I calmly told her spitting is for outside and moved her outside gently but firmly when she wouldn't stop (we live in so cal and the weather was shorts and short sleeves - otherwise I would just stick to spitting out the window even though it wasn't working). When she started throwing stuff at me I went inside but left the sliding door open. She RAGED for about 5 mins - then asked for a hug. I know this is not child abuse. But when I heard that my neighbor was outside my stomach clenched. He doesn't know us at all. What if he called child services? What if they take my babies away? I wouldn't even know who they were with! They would be so traumatized! Even thinking of it makes me want to sob!

I don't know much about cps other than they have the ability to take children away from parents. I do know a bit about how people can get when they are given powerful authority others.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

day late.. i know i know.

this is us, after the most recent raid.

this aired 4 times on 12/30/03 in our state

www.dcfwatch.com/decemberdcf/wpbfnews.html


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## Journey (Jun 12, 2002)

Oh, Amanda!


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## greenluv (Jul 26, 2002)

Amanda!








What is it with these people? Can they not understand that after, what is it, 3 visits your children aren't being abused???

That's outrageous!

Is there any recourse for you?








to all of you!


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Uhm.. yup. Christmas made #4

they see each call as an indicator of abuse


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

WOW.

Well, the news report definitely was in your favour, amanda. You were very well-spoken, calm and controlled.

It's terrible that one phone call is all it takes. If it is from the same person each time, I wonder if DCF will eventually recognize it as a crank and do something about it.

<hugs>


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## Dakota's Mom (Apr 8, 2003)

I work directly with Child Protection (DYFS in this state) all the time as part of my job. I work in drug rehab with mothers who are mandated into treatment by DYFS. I have some moms who have done nothing to deserve to have their childen taken. One mom who's baby was taken because she was homeless. Another mom who had her child taken because the baby was born with methadone in her system. (DYFS had helped her get into the meth program.) I have seen other women get their kids back who should never have them. One woman had her 6 month old and 18 month old returned to her custody even after she was found quilty of pimping out her 7 year old for drugs. There is no equality in the system.

My own son lost custody of his children because he refused to give his son steroids. The toddler had a rsh all over his body. The doctor said he would outgrow it or they could give him steroids and he would get over it right away. My son chose to let him outgrow it. He felt the steroids were too dangerous. His wife's sister disagreed with this choice and call cps and reported medical neglect. The children were taken and the child was given the steroids against their parents wishes.

Personally I thin they need to stop chasing ever little complaint and do something about the real cases.

Kathi


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

When my teenage DD was taken into "protective custody", CPS threatened to drug test me, even though I had provided plenty of evidence in Family Court that my DD had been detained many times in school and sent to juvenile court for drug possession and use.

This evidence was ignored.

The CPS social worker who came to my home would call me names and openly accuse me of drug use in front of my DH and children.

They felt as helpless as I did.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I was never drug tested.

No test was ever ordered or requested.

The allegation was simply continually thrown around to intimidate me and my family.


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*WOW.

Well, the news report definitely was in your favour, amanda. You were very well-spoken, calm and controlled.

It's terrible that one phone call is all it takes. If it is from the same person each time, I wonder if DCF will eventually recognize it as a crank and do something about it.

<hugs>*
Thanks piglet! I think I remember you from about.com chat? I'm AFJ









they know this is crank b.s. calling.. they just can't resist an oppurtunity to take me down


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by applejuice_
*When my teenage DD was taken into "protective custody", CPS threatened to drug test me, even though I had provided plenty of evidence in Family Court that my DD had been detained many times in school and sent to juvenile court for drug possession and use.

This evidence was ignored.

The CPS social worker who came to my home would call me names and openly accuse me of drug use in front of my DH and children.

They felt as helpless as I did.*
And now you know to do everything in writing and/or a documentation letter afterward, right? get that crap into the formal record.

they won't come back


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## amandajf (May 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by applejuice_
*I was never drug tested.

No test was ever ordered or requested.

The allegation was simply continually thrown around to intimidate me and my family.*
they tried making me undergo a psycho-social. my husband answered the phone, asked if it was voluntary, and when the service provider said yes, he said thanks but no thanks and hung up.

the worker called back that afternoon screaming and yelling, and I told him i taped the call once i caught him in several lies. I never did do it.

i did undergo family builders... a social worker in my home 3 x a week for 3 hours a visit.. telling me how to brush teeth and how important it is to vaccinate. she kept labeling me as defiant until one day i went off and quoted a bunch of studies proving her videos were bunk... then i threatened her supervisor with a lawsuit if she didn't turn over my file.

they don't even try now, i won't even move unless there is a court order, and even then i'll appeal it to the supreme court.

i think what scares them the most is i post it online. they're dying to nail me with confidentiality statute violations, but i redact rather well









more power to you ladies... don';t give in... if they're going to take your children, they'll do it if you cooperate or not.. may as well make em earn that $14 an hour









if you ever need my assistance, drop me an email... what i'm here for.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Thank you. I admire your perseverance.

I hope there is never another time.







:

My DH is gone now. This happened when he was first diagnosed. I was so vulnerable! He refused to go to any counseling, and he was probably right since it did no good. This also was never noted in any court reports or CPS social worker reports.

This all happened seven years ago, and my DD is still behaviourally challenged. My two older DS's stood by me and have turned out well, and my youngest DS is, so far, very well.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

I just voted for a "founded" report, even though what they told me for the reason for visiting was obviously false.

When my son was 8 months old, I stupidly decided to try CIO. I was completely at the end of my rope, major ppd, and he hadn't had a nap without me pushing him in the stroller the entire time in 3 months. So, I did a modified Ferber on Friday for about 50 minutes, decided I'd never do that again, and nursed him until he calmed down and went to sleep.

On Saturday, I decided to try the Baby Whisperer suggestions because 'it's not CIO". Yeah, right. I stayed in the room and picked him up when he cried and put him down when he was calm for 40 minutes until he didn't calm down at all, then I took my completely hysterical child downstairs and nursed him until he calmed down. And I decided then and there that CIO was cruel and quite probably abusive.

On Monday, 2 social workers showed up at my door because they'd supposedly received a report that ds wasn't being fed. Yeah, right. I'm pretty sure that they got a report my son was being allowed to cry for hours.







:

They refused to tell me who had reported us, though I knew it had to be one of my neighbours (we live in row housing) and when the ones we were friendly with started avoiding us, I kind of figured it out.

Anyway, I let them in. Don't know if we have a right to refuse here in Alberta. My house was a disaster because we had started packing to move, and I told them that's why is was a mess. 3 years later it's still a mess because we still haven't actually managed to move, but whatever.

When she told me about the not being fed thing, I told her to hold my son. She made some comments about him being a good size and obviously well-fed (thankfully, he's a pretty lean little guy, so I was a bit concerned). They left and that was the end of things.

After reading all of the stories on this thread, I think I got off extremely lucky.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Just a small part of my story...

part 1: me... I was raised by an abusive mother. She beat me. She used brushes and wooden spoons and broke them. If my report cards weren't good enoug. If my chores weren't done on time. If I _dared_ to watch tv when I was grounded or should have been doing homework. She didn't protect me when I was molested at 3-5. She didn't bother to get me councelling for it either. She believed the teachers about my never doing my homework when I would do it and it would dissapear. That I was being sexually harrassed at school. She didn't get me help when I saw her get up and grab her clothes from a date rape... She got beaten, I got traumatized by it. She denies that I was molested at 9 or that the molester's mother (she was my babysitter) called me a ho and a tramp and worse. She let her best friend beat me as well as the neighbours if I did something "wrong." (once it was for just coming home from school. mother's friend had just washed the kitchen floor maybe 5 and I tracked mud in. this was after being alone on a city bus for an hour!) She emotionally destroyed me. Spiritually, mentally and psychically damaged me...
I called cps on her when I was 15 after a bad beating. I tried to get the school to help me several times. Even telling my councellor I was suicidal didn't help. Or my gymnastic coach/youth program leader that I wanted to be in a foster home... No one listened to me. Not even running away got me help.

part 2: abusive partner "Dickwad". Small child. unable to restrain myself and scared shitless about hurting my child and being "just like my mother." Call comes in that I "held my child wrong" after being at a woman's centre. First of a string of social workers. Offered Parenting courses. Parenting course leaders said "this isn't right for you." So I couldn't take it. Dickwad decides to kill long distance so I have no contact with outside world other than by going to a payphone and calling collect. This is a small town in the middle of nowhere. Nearest McDs is 8 hrs away small town. He refuses to let me go to the women's centre, screens my friends and tells me that X, Y, and Z aren't allowed anymore because he doesn't like them. Refuses to let me get a job because even though we need the money, he won't look after the baby. He cuts the cable then decides to move out without telling me any of this. His cutting the cable was the last straw. I hadn't had new clothes in two years and my last pair of pants had holes in them and I had shoes that were in similar condition. So I tried suicide by pills. That Friday, he moves and takes baby with him. Fully breastfed 9 month old. Visit from social worker no 2 and police overnight. Baby is fine. No custody order so baby is left there. Baby is given formula and breastfed status is ignored by social worker. Dickwad's dad flies up that weekend and I get the lecture of how stupid I was. Ignores his son's behavior. Dad and son work at same company so contact between them is a simple phone call or instant intracompany message. They decide to take off on me with baby again. Dickwad grabs baby. I also put my arms around her. I am thrown to the floor as two men wrestle her out of my arms. Dickwad's dad puts his leg across my throat and tries to strangle me. They get baby and Dickwad is told to run for it. I go running out the door barefoot to get baby back. Cop shop is behind the building we live in. Cops give me back daughter and I spend a month in a transition house fighting for the right for custody. I get yelled at for not feeding her "three squares and snacks" for not keeping her quiet at night, for breaking a playpen that I didn't even ask for - they put it up and the worker's daughter there screamed at me to put it away and I didn't know how to do it so angry, I tried and I broke it. Finally, I was allowed to leave the small town with "joint custody" and a small paternity. At least social worker 3 and that financial worker were "ok." I got a clothing allowance, and wore my first new pair of pants in at least 2 years that month.

Part 4: daughter is 12ish months old. I get a call about "satanic abuse and rituals" both by cops showing up and making us late for appointments and by social worker no 4. I have a report here stating that there were "unexplained" bruises on daughter's legs. Daughter would take her toes, hook them under the step of her stroller and bounce up and down. Where the seat and step contacted her legs she got bruises. Social worker 4 threatened removal if failure to thrive continued (18lbs at 12 months) and if I didn't vax even though I had problems with the mmr - I didn't want to give it to her. After the vax, I was in and out of the hospital so often that I overheard the doctor say my name and threaten me with Munchausen by Proxy if I showed up again. This was within the first two weeks of the vax!!!! Social worker 4 pressured me into contacting my mother and even said it was a good idea to move back in with her. HAH!!!!

Part 5: after a year of living with my mother, things got explosive. She was on a "toughlove" kick. If I didn't do as she said, I got privileges revoked even though she said she'd help me with child care AND i was paying rent for the privilege of squeezing back into my bedroom with my daughter. And a phone bill. And food. And I had to do chores that she should have been doing. And and and and. One main issue was that if I didn't have the place clean on friday, I couldn't go out and spend the night with friends... then thursday, then weds, then tuesday, then monday... And the place had to be kept clean. And even if I did that for the entire time she told me I had to keep the place clean, she would break her promises. Then at one point she decided to tear into me about the molestation that happened at age 9. That I dared to let a 3 year old boy (at the most) get molested as well because I was the oldest kid there at the time... I never saw what happened to that boy!! And she didn't believe me. She got in my face and I finally hit her. She spent the night at a cop shop and when a police report was refused, she wrote the chief. Then she realized that she had something to use against me. If she pushed the right buttons, she'd get hit and could play the "poor victim" who has an abusive child who was "never raised that way."







: Months later, she set it up. Social worker no 6, (no 5 arranged for daycare at a place I didn't want to take my child to) arranged for a supervisor to stay between us from the time my mother got home till my daughter went to bed. This didn't work. She had arranged it so she'd get me pissed off, get hit, and then would charge me with assault with a witness there. This was PLANNED and orchestrated. She forgot one thing - she kept me from my daughter which made me more enraged. The judge didn't want to convict me, but with Zero tolerance, she gave me a conditional sentence. My daughter was put in temporary foster care by me so I could calm down and deal with the shit that happened. But when they refused to return her, they apprehended her.

Part 6: dealing with them, the conviction and more... I wasn't allowed to see or initiate contact with my mother, yet she'd show up at my home, track me down just outside the courthouse during court days, call the cops if I _dared_ to be within the 4 block radius of her home - even though my probation officer, the cop shop AND the courthouse were all within this zone. She made my life hell. Social worker no 6 and no 7 believed her and not me. They refused to believe that I was ever abused. They denied anything happened to me. It was all "you abused your mother." Then, at the year and a half mark, they started to listen to the foster mother - and the foster mother was saying the exact same stuff I had been! Don't let grandma near this child!!! That grandma was abusive. That my daughter was developing asthma and grandma refused to stop smoking around her. That grandma was doing weird religious psychobable and trying to brainwash my daughter and more. It took a year and a half and another woman to get through to these people??????? Social worker 6 and 7 wanted all my friends to have criminal records checked - but not the parents of the children my daughter would spend time with??????

Part 7: I lost my daughter to continuing care. But so did my mother so I had a small victory. I wasn't "unwilling" simply "unable" as the judge put it. I wanted to raise my daughter, but I wouldn't be able to because the war between my mother and myself would get in the way. Social worker 7 never councelled me that once in continuing care she'd be put up for adoption immediately or that there was a time limit to get her back. Visits were cut and I last saw her January 2000.

Part 8 Social worker 8 - saw her for an hour. Unhelpful. Refused to reinstate visits. Wouldn't give me any answers.

Part 9: Social workers 9 and 10.... these two brainiacs showed up at our doorsteps at 10:30 am after a long night with my son. I couldn't sleep until 4 am. They bang on landlady's door. Landlady answers, sends them around back to ours, bangs on our door and tells us that they are there. DP barely has time to get up and get some clothes on while I continue to nurse boy. I was woken up by him suckling. He answers the door. They refuse to let me have the dignity to get dressed and I managed to put a housecoat on. Social worker 9 yells at us. The place is too messy. The place has too much stuff. "This is a pre-mobile child and you have too much stuff on the floor." Plays with kitten who immediately gets labelled "viscious animal" and he threatens her with declawing. I threaten him with animal abuse charges. Allegations are "cat scratches," "dirty child," "too much stuff," "smelly child." Son has excema. We were told not to bath him too often because that would make it worse. 9 didn't like any of our reasons. Threatens removal of child if cats aren't gotten rid of. Threatens removal of child if vaxes aren't done immediately. Threatens removal of child if we don't accept a homemaker [u[that very day[/u]. Threatens threatens threatens. Place too small. Not enough food. Not feeding boy enough... Gives us name of Social worker 11 and says she'll be there within a week. EEEK!! Social worker 10 never EVER says a thing.

I spend the next two days unable to eat and unable to sleep. I clean. I sterilize. I pack up my property and put it in storage. DP helps and does most of the work for us. DS still hasn't rolled over yet. I sit down and call Metis Family Services for help even though they frelled up everything with my daughter. We go see family doc for an emergency and thorough well baby check for any signs of abuse.

Then I get a bright idea.

I wrote a letter to the minister responsible for and I give him hell for his social worker's conduct. Not being allowed the dignity of dressing??? I'll post it in another message... The social worker was such a numbnut he completely forgot to see if there was a bedroom!

Social worker 11 and 12 show up. Completely different people. They look at the vaccine article in Mothering and shut up about it. They look at the place and are amazed at the cleanliness. They take our honesty about not wanting a homemaker and shut up about it. They give me a bus pass. They try to arrange for first aide lessons but none were available. No parenting classes offered. One final visit and lots of apologizes over the dignity thing and they were gone.

Part 10: social worker 11 calls up. Tells me my daughter wants to get ahold of me. I give her my email to pass on. By that night, I have the first photo of my daughter on my hard drive in 5 years. She was barely 10.

Part 11: we go through an FOI request and find out that if it hadn't been for my daughter, SW 9,10, 11 and 12 wouldn't have been in our life. Because of her, I have a file. So I'm guilty of abuse whether or not I have actually done any. So if they get a complaint they will investigate.

I'm waiting for a part 12. I had to grab my son by the arm when he ran into the parking lot here and it looked like I was being abusive. It wasn't his arm I grabbed, it was the extra material of his jacket. Or the screaming from chickenpox.. or that he's rarely out of the house right now (gee.. he's sick.. should I expose everyone in this valley of 20,000?) or that he's not vaccinate.. that he doesn't have enough clothes on him... or or or or or ....

So we try to keep this place clean. If they do show up, I'm armed this time - Especially with the "I'm pregnant and am exhausted. I'm also allergic to vaccuming cause of the dust. And i'm allergic to mold. Want to help me? get me air filters and a rainbow vaccum! Too expensive? Then Frell Off!"

That and we have a tape recorder on standby.

I'm sooo glad that the BC liberals have cut MCFD(cps)'s budget. That means that they'll only go after the ones they can truthfully justify. They try going after us again and they'll be sorry.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Letter I wrote to Then Minister Hogg... (that o is pronoused like the o in hole and others not as in piggy, although he looked like one)

Please don't edit this out Moderators. This is a letter from a parent fighting back!

Quote:

Dear Sir:

Earlier today, I had a most disturbing visit with two members of your ministry. I was told that my worker, whose card I did not receive today, had been trying to get in touch with me with regards to my five month old son's health and well being. I never had any messages on my answering machine nor was there anything on the Caller ID screen. The visit today was not only a shock to both myself and my son's father who was present at the time, it was terrifying. I was forced to sit through an interrogation of our activities, my family unit, my support system and more all while in a housecoat because I was not given enough time to get dressed let alone become presentable.

The social worker who spoke to us told me that because of what happened with my daughter who was placed in continuing care my file was red flag which meant that any complaint would be investigated immediately.

I would like to know why your staff uses prejudicial assumptions instead of judging each complaint on its own merits or even gauging it with regards to a pattern with each individual child.

I am no longer the young woman who was terrorized by an abusive family member. I have a strong support system, a loving extended family, and my son's father is determined to do everything he can to keep our son at my side. Your social workers didn't seem to care that I had severed ties with the abusive members of my family.

The worker came in and found us in a state of disarray. I had been up late last night dealing with a cranky teething five month old who has had two teeth for over a month and had planned on cleaning after breakfast when I finally got up. The dishes had not been done and we did have clothing and other objects strewn around our place as is normal in almost any house when one is under the stress of a teething baby. They came probably expecting to find a malnourished underdeveloped child who was covered in his own feces. Instead, they found a clean, happy, thriving child who is much loved by his parents, so their main cause blunted, they sought out any reason to justify their visit and their continuing presence in our lives.

We were told that my home was too small and far too dangerous for our son. We were told over and over again that my place needed to be made child-safe, something that we ourselves have been doing but it is an ongoing process. We had our four month old kitten threatened with declawing if we didn't remove her from the premises for the "danger" she presented to our son. Only when I accused the worker of animal abuse was he willing to renegotiate.

We were not allowed to defend ourselves and have had to consent to a homemaker to help us "clean" and "child proof" my home. I feel that this is a waste of valuable resources and money better spent elsewhere. As my son's abilities increase, out of necessity I will have to keep a clean home so that he will have a safe place to explore. My son is not yet mobile, nor has he made any inclinations towards becoming mobile. It is only within the last month that he has figured out how to sit up straight without support.

I was questioned three separate times as to how I was coping with being a new mother. I felt as if they didn't believe that I was coping well and that they expected me to admit that I was a failure as a mother. I'm not perfect, but I'm hardly a failure. All this happened while the male social worker towered over us, refused to sit in an offered chair, and I was naked and barely covered under a housecoat.

A single complaint regarding a scratch less than a quarter inch long is going to affect our lives for months if not years to come. It is sad to see the waste of resources applied to such a minimal complaint when there are children in far worse situations that need care far more.

We took our son to our doctor's clinic in the afternoon and the report was that the scratch was of minimal concern. Our son was weighed in at 19lbs 8oz - nearly 9kg - and is not only size for weight and age, but has in fact doubled his birth weight. He was also very happy, energetic, and showed his outgoing personality to the doctor. This is not the sign of an abused or uncared for child. The scratch was determined as probably self-inflicted since the doctor watched my son scratch at a patch of excema I have been trying to alleviate for several weeks now. My son had no sign of diaper rash. Please find enclosed a copy of his medical records which will prove to you the truth of my statements here.

I ask that you redirect the staff under your direction to focus on higher priority cases than one involving an infant with a scratch on his face. I have learned from the many mistakes made with my daughter and plan not to commit them with my son. To have my file red flagged is very prejudicial and does not take into account the learning process one goes through as a parent.
Internal affairs contacted me within the month and apologized and investigated. I think social worker no 9, a man, also got chewed out about it.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

I had a friend whose children went through, in one month, several little accidents that required medical attention. She went to different hospitals since these events happened in different locations, so she was not trying to hide anything deliberately, and she was rudely paid a visit by CPS.
applejuice-
I've been thinking about this, and I began to wonder- Could her health insurance company have called CPS, because one insurance claim after another came in?

*I still want to know who goes into that National Registry- people with founded reports? Unfounded reports? Both?*


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