# Csection Support Thread April 2005 (cont discussion from March)



## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Hi!

This thread is for support only and not to debate the necessity of cesarean birth. This is a place to moan, complain, bitch, mourn, share the joy, thoughtful decision, cesarean birthplans, etc and all are welcome!

I wanted us to keep the same thread going since there is a lot of information here. I have recieved so many PMs from lurkers and other moms on mothering about cesareans and getting support for one that I thought it best we keep it going.

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Thought I would give a brief update!

I am now 21 weeks along. My csection is now scheduled for June 23rd. After much thtought, deliberation and study we felt this was the best time to do it. I am just not willing to chance fate during my last pregnancy. I have horrible adhesions and I can really feel things around my scare as my uterus stretches.
We are excited to be having a girl. Right now she is breech. I imagine if she doesnt get head down she will be breech or transverse for the rest of the way. Right now I can only flipping her in one direction (the septum may be preventing her from going the other way, not sure). My placenta is a great place, and I have not gained any weight thus far. However I am bigger around at 21 weeks than I was at the end of my last few pregnancies. UGH.

I am beginning to write my cbirth plan. I may alter a few things to this one than the last (which can be found in several threads of 2004 under csecion suppot) Also I am trying to get my doc to let a third person be in the OR.

So this thread hasnt been up in several weeks and I have seen several threads about csections before and post partum. Lets get updates from everyone. Don't be a stranger. Momma's here need to know we are around and to offer support.

Kim


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll be brave ... I'm 15.5 months pp, and I actually feel great. I have zero adhesion or scar pain, and have regained about 95% of my feeling around the scar. I haven't had any stretching feelings in awhile, even though I carried 25 lbs. ds in his 8 lbs. backpack almost all day on Wednesday. I know I'm very lucky.









In 2 weeks I meet the mw I'm hoping to use for my VBAC whenever we decide to start ttc. I hope it goes well b/c there are only OBs or UC after that. I'm a little nervous that she's hospital based (illegal for MWs to attend HBAC here), and fear my reaction to a hospital environment. I'm going to have to work on those issues when the time comes. If things go well in labor, part of me just wants to have an accidentally-on-purpose UBAC. I think my dh would flip out with that, though. :LOL

Kim ... I'm so glad you're feeling good! Keep us posted. I can't believe you're half-way cooked already!!!

So come on out ladies, where ever you are!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Amy,

What was the reason for your csectoin again? My brains dont work that well and I cant remember.
I think you would be brave to do a UC, I would be scared to do one. If you have a VBAC in the hospital I think maybe visiting the hospital and doing visulation exercises would help.
The hospital I had my oldest in I still have panic attacks when I go in.







It was just a really bad experience and its been 8 years.


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## veganbaby (Oct 28, 2004)

Hi,
Its been 6 months PP and I still get sad over my birth expereince. I still feel guilty of what I could have done differently. My scar is itchy. It doesn't hurt anymore, but just uncomfortable.
I too want a VBAC. What is a UBAC?


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## veganbaby (Oct 28, 2004)

I would like to share my birth story. I haven't read it in a long time. It took me the longest time to write it and when I finally did I cried.

I woke up at around 6:15 having contractions. They seemed to be coming at a regular interval. I woke up Fred and we timed them together. They were anywhere from 3 to 8 minutes apart and lasted 30 seconds to over a minute long. The longer apart they were, the longer they were. We practiced some relaxation. I had 2 soft stools. We decided to try to get some sleep just in case they were the real thing. I was able to get some sleep, waking up every 15 minutes with an intense contraction. Fred called our doula and he got up to make breakfast. I got up and used the restroom and saw that I had some bloody mucous! I called our doula and let her know and she said that she would come whenever I wanted. I asked her to come in a couple more hours. By 11:30 when she came, my contractions were coming on strong and regular. We felt that it was still too soon to go the hospital. It wasn't hurting too bad. I was able to talk through some of them. At 5:13 my water broke. It felt weird. I was sitting at the dining room table talking to my doula and all of a sudden a contraction and something kind of sunk in and I felt as though I jumped. All of a sudden: TRICKLE TRICKLE....and it kept coming. I cried becacuse I was kind of embarrased. We went the hospital after that. The nurses were really nice. Unfortunately, my midwife was on vaccation so I had to wait for the OB to get there. Fortunately, he is an advocate of natural childbirth as well. The nurses let me wait for him to do the cervix check. He did not get to the hospital until 7. By then my contractions were really strong. He checked me and I wasn't dialated at all. I screamed afterwards because it caused my contractions to get stronger. I really don't remember how many more times they checked me. I was told that I wasn't allowed to labor in the tub because Desi had passed some meconium. I had to be monitored on the strip every 30 minutes, which I think they allowed me to be mobile for more. By 10 my contractions were getting so strong I couldn't handle it anymore. Fred suggested I take a shower. They allowed me to take a shower in the other room. I labored in the hot shower for almost 2 hours. My doctor wanted to see me at 11 and I had him see me in the bathroom. He saw that I was doing well and allowed me to labor in there longer. Now I know why they say having a water birth is like having an epidural. It felt delcious and I could barely feel the contractions when the hot water hit. I got out at 12. They checked me. I don't remember what I was. Maybe a 2. The contractions were so painful!!!! And I was having a fever. I started shaking violently which made the contractions worse. I know I was begging for an epi at this point or a C sec...but I only did it when the nurse left...so I guess I wanted Fred to talk me out of it. By 4 I still wasn't progressing. I told him that I needed an epi. He tried to talk me out of it, but I told him I couldn't make it. I told him that it depended on the cervix check. They checked me and I was only at 4. I saw that this was going slow so I asked for the epi. My doula had left to nurse her son. When she got back, they were shooting me up. It took a while because I kept having contractions and they had to stop. When the medicine kicked in I felt so much better. The contractions felt as they did earlier in the day. Desi though wasn't doing well. Her heartrate was going way up. They had me lay on one side to get oxyen to her. At some point I had to wear an oxygen mask. think they checked me at 6 and I was only at 5 cm. The nurse said that if I wasn't progressing she would have to give me pitocin. They allowed us to do nipple stimulation with a pump for an hour and a half. Still no progress so they gave me pitocin. The contractations became intense again but I was able to handle it. Shift change and the nurse from hell came. She talked to me as thouhg as I were deaf. She was rough with her cervix checks and had an ugly grimace on her face. She was rude to our family and talked back to my doctor. I felt the urge to push around 9 or so. I was at an 8 I think. At 11 I was finally able to push. My doctor came in and checked to see if I was doing it right. It appeared as thouhgg I was. He left. I pushed for an hour and a half. Everyone was encouraging except for the mean nurse. She kept telling me to do it harder and I felt that I had to listen. After an hour and a Half the doc came back and he said that her head wasn't coming down. He wasn't concern on that and said that I could use forceps or a C sec. We opted for the sec because of my physical state. I still tried to push while they were preparing me for the section. They wheeled me to surgery. And at that point my memory is bad. I know they did the spinal there. My arms started shaking uncontrorably. I heard them say girl or I thought and Fred tried to put Desi in my arms but I was shaking too hard to hold her. I fell asleep. At 2 I woke up. Fred wasn't there, but my doula was there. I fell back asleep and kept waking up to them telling me to relax. I woke up again at 2:30. I was still in the operating room. I wanted to know where my baby was. I was upset that I didn't get to hold her right away. I kept asking for her, but she wasn't there. The nurses kept telling me in a little while, but it wasn't until 4 that I got to hold her in my arms. So there it is.


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

I'm just about 10 months postpartum and don't have any lingering issues from my c-section. The scar is still a little numb, of course, but not something I notice much.

One of my good friends is pregnant, and a few of the moms of same age babies in my mom's group are starting to try, or at least thinking about it. Meanwhile, I'm thinking I really might be done with just the one. Things with DH are still rocky (we've been in counseling since before our oops pregnancy) and I can't see adding another complicating factor to our relationship. And I miss my old life a lot sometimes, and at least now I can see light at the end of the tunnel - in another year or two I'll have a lot more flexibility. Add another baby, and that gets a lot longer away. And then there's the fact that we won the baby lottery - DS is a really easy baby (excepting the nightnursing), and I don't think I could cope with a fussy baby - better not to risk fate.

But if I do only have the one, I know I'll always be at least a little sad and regretful about never having experienced labor, let alone delivery. But that's no reason to have another baby.

In any case, I'm getting an IUD on March 7, so no babies anytime in the near future. I'm a little worried about it, since I didn't have a vaginal delivery, I'm guessing it's going to hurt a lot to have it inserted. Anyone have any experience with IUDs?


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm so glad you're posting this thread! C-section may not be the best way to give birth but thank God it's available! I wouldn't have any of my 4 kids without medical intervention both in conceiving and giving birth. I labored for my first and made it to 10 cm. but she was moving UP during the contractions. It turns out I have big-headed babies (38+ cm heads) and a fused pelvis which necessitates c-sections unless I have them super early. If I could have had regular delieveries, I definately would have but unfortunately, it's not in the cards for me.

I've come to terms with my 'issue' and have had nothing but wonderful birth experiences and my doctor is an absolute doll - telling me that I can keep going and having more babies even after 4 sections. I know that sometimes sections are done for reasons that are not solid but there are also sections for those like me who really need them!

Ann


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Cynthia,

Thanks for sharing your birth story. I am wondering what you think you could have doen differently to avoid the csection. Do you feel at the time you did decide to go with one that for *you* it was necessary? Sometimes necessity for some may be different for others. (like you(general) are exhausted sick and in pain, or medical necessity)


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Tammy its so good to hear from you!
I sort afelt like you after my first. (now I am on 4th and last!)
I don't think the IUD will be any different had you had a vaginal birth. Most those I know who have had them, before having children or after with vaginal or csections said the discomfort was minimal. There didn't seem to be a difference as to what kind of delivery they had.
What kind of IUD are you getting?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

WOW Ann! Four cesection! That rocks that you have a doctor who supports you in having more children and more than 3 csections.

Do you get double layered sutures? any advice for moms that would like to have more than 3 csections?


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Do you get double layered sutures? any advice for moms that would like to have more than 3 csections?

I don't know what my doctor does but I do know that the doctors assisting all said that my doctor does awesome sections and they've all learned things from him. I don't know if it's a factor of the doctor or my body but with my last pregnancy both the doctor and his partner said that my uterus was perfect and they gave me their blessing to have another one.







That made me feel great! Also, my last section was by far my easiest and we even went to Burger King on the way home from the hospital because I was starved (I got out late) and then I did a load of diapers when I got home! LOL!!


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## veganbaby (Oct 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Cynthia,

Thanks for sharing your birth story. I am wondering what you think you could have doen differently to avoid the csection. Do you feel at the time you did decide to go with one that for *you* it was necessary? Sometimes necessity for some may be different for others. (like you(general) are exhausted sick and in pain, or medical necessity)

I wish I would have stayed home longer. I wished I would have asked the mean nurse to leave. I feel that that all the decisons we made were necessary. I have a high tolerence for pain usuaully. If I were allowed to labor in the tub I don't think I would have made the decision to opt for the epidural. As for the C section I felt that it was best for me and my child. I'm wary of forceps. I rather have damage done to my body then take the risk of hurting her head. Her head wasn't transcending at all. Her head was also going up during contractions too. She was also osterior.
Next time I'm gong to try a home birth . That way the proceduers of the hospital woulnd't be as stressful.


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

Hi gals! Good to see this thread again. I am almost 5 weeks PP and had a beautiful baby girl! My second c-birth was so much easier than the first one and a lot of that is due to the advice I got here on this thread and from OTF! Thanks ladies! I am recovering great and have had no real issues with this birth at all! I did feel a lot more this time (had a spinal instead of an epidural) but I it only lasted a while.

My c-section was scheduled for a Tuesday and my water broke at 11pm on the Sunday night before. So I got to experience 3 hours of labor before my very unscheduled c-section at 2am in the morning! I was really happy about going into labor since I was scheduled with ds and never had felt a labor pain! It was painful but did not feel like I had expected it would!

Anyway, I was up and showering by Tuesday morning and have not stopped since! I feel great! The only odd thing is that my right big toe has been a little numb since the birth! I need to ask my doctor about this but feel kind of stupid. It does change the way I lift my foot.

Anyway, I have a beautiful daughter and had a very postive c-birth. Just wanted to let you all know.


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## Kiki Runs (Oct 7, 2002)

Checking in, too.... I'll be UBACing any day now, just waiting on baby to make up his/her little mind and get busy, lol.

We guesstimated the "due date" to be sometime in the 20s of February - we weren't trying hard (no charting or anything), and I'm still nursing DS, so it's not very exact (which is FINE, b/c especially with a VBAC, time pressure is unnecessary and unappreciated). Lately, I've decided that this baby won't be born until March - that way if it comes earlier it's a pleasant surprise, and if it waits til March, I'm not disappointed. Works for me.....

I don't know if anyone remembers, but DS' c/s was VERY hard for me to accept, and I do still feel it was unnecessary. B/c of this, I was VERY prepared when it came time to interview care providers for this pregnancy. I knew what *I* would need for a successful VBAC (or at least to accept another c/s if it was TRULY necessary). I just was not able to find a medical professional who could provide those things to me. I have only two options in our town, so after interviewing both of them, it was pretty clear that UC was the only option left.

My mom has been here for a week now, and we're all just waiting. Right now, I am so VERY glad I decided to go UC, b/c otherwise the pressure would be ridiculous. The OB I interviewed tried to put my "due date" at Feb 13 (which I flat out refused), and the midwife I saw reluctanctly agreed to put it somewhere between the 15th and the 20th. So either way, I would now be "overdue", and under pressure to schedule a c/s - all based on a GUESSTIMATE!!!! Craziness.....

This pregnancy has been helpful in my healing from DS' c/s. I've known for quite a while what I would do differently (if that magic fairy waved her wand and gave me another chance at DS' birth), and what OTHERS should have done differently as well. I have been able to be much stronger this time around in asserting my wishes, and I have gained more confidence in my body's and my baby's ability to know what is best. At first, I really "needed" this baby to be another twelve-pounder, so that I could "prove" that DS' c/s was unnecessary, but lately I've been able to let that go and just prepare for the baby in its own right (now, given the choice, I still would choose to have another twelve-pounder, but I'll be okay if the baby's smaller than that - good thing, b/c it's not my choice, lol!).

I'm excited to experience how my body labors when left ALONE - DS' birth was full of unwanted, unnecessary interventions, so I have no clue what a "normal" labor is for me.

All in all, I'm excited to have this baby, and glad to be doing it without outside pressure.

Kinsey


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Tammy its so good to hear from you!
I sort afelt like you after my first. (now I am on 4th and last!)
I don't think the IUD will be any different had you had a vaginal birth. Most those I know who have had them, before having children or after with vaginal or csections said the discomfort was minimal. There didn't seem to be a difference as to what kind of delivery they had.
What kind of IUD are you getting?

4, huh? I just don't see that happening!! But one never knows...

I hate hormones, so I'm just getting the plain old copper IUD (paragard?) - speaking of which, I need to call my doctor and make sure they know that's what I'm wanting - they didn't ask when I made the appointment, and I need to make sure they have the right thing on hand. I had to wait 6 weeks for the appointment - I don't want to have to wait again!

They like to do the insertion when you're menstruating, but I still have lactational amennorhea, so no period yet for me. I'm definitely not missing tha part of my pre-baby life.


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## veganbaby (Oct 28, 2004)

What is a UBAC?
Its wonderful to find support in each other. I'm glad I found this board.


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

Hi! I posted on the last few threads and was actually looking for this thread yesterday. I will be 35 weeks tomarrow! My third sec is sheduled for March 22 (38 weeks 4 days), but I don't know if I will make it that far. I have PIH, so we are just taking it week by week. I had the steriod shots at 32 weeks, so hopefully baby will be fine if she has to come early. I had PIH with my last and made it to 37 weeks, so hopefull I will make it at least that far.

I am feeling pretty good. Some streching and touging around my scar, but nothing too painfull. This baby is breach and transverse (which is killing my hips). She spend 3 days of the last 6 weeks head down and doc was she she would stay, because she was so low, but she did not! She is constantly flipping around, like she can't quite get comfortable.

I have had several dreams about having this baby UBAC (unassisted). This would not bother me at all, but dh is freaked out!







. We live over an hour from the hospital, so if I had a fast labor it is possible. I am still debating over what to do if I actually do go into labor. I am comfortable having this baby at home and our cattle manager has delivered thousands of calves and he can be here in min if I need him (He is a very close friend and I trust him with my life). The only problem I can see is if someone calls 911, the ambulance comes from 45 min away and the small county hospital that I will NOT go to (we have EMTs closer, but no transport). I would have to drive or have someone drive me to the town hospital.

Sorry this is long and rambly, dh is working late and the girls are asleep









Hope you all have a great weekend!


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## pinky (Nov 21, 2001)

Thanks for reviving this thread!

I am not quite 4 months out from a VBAC that wasn't. Physically I am feeling quite back to normal, but emotionally I have my ups and downs about it. Someday I will post my whole birth story, but suffice it to say that I got wonderful care during my pregnancy and delivery, and am about 99% sure that my c-sec was unaviodable. I had a long but beautiful, supported natural labor with three hours of pushing...I had no interventions until my anesthesia for the surgery. My dd was born healthy and alert and calm and is such a joy to me. Sometimes I feel very at peace with the whole thing, and often when I am holding my beautiful cooing girl the fact that she was born surgically seems entirely irrelevant. But sometimes I feel just a sharp pang of grief and regret at the vaginal birth that almost was and that I'm not likely to ever experience.

Gotta run, glad to have this support network revived.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganbaby*
What is a UBAC?

It is a VBAC at home with no birth attendants -- meaning, no formal birth attendants like drs., mws, doulas, or others. Typically, just mom, dad, and maybe a few close, trusted friends and family. The U stands for unassisted. Check out the Unassisted Childbirth forum here at MDC to get a better understanding.

HTH!

OTF ... my c/s was for FTP basically, which we all know is a load of poop in most instances. I was in labor for 22 hours, pushed for 2+, hadn't eaten in about 26 hours, and hadn't slept in close to 36. DS was posterier and wouldn't move past about +2 station (or wherever your pubic bone is). My water broke on its own at home about 11 hours into my erratic labor and my contractions were never textbook normal and regular (but probably that's just the way my body labors). When I got to the hospital (I went too early, IMO, but I was having transition symptoms, so what did I know), I was only 3 cms, but with broken waters, they admitted me, told me baby was too high to let me walk around, and I risked cord prolapse (have now learned that the risk of cord prolapse was greatest before my water broke and since it didn't prolapse at that time, it probably wasn't going to -- so this was a litigation based medical decision IMO). So they put me pretty flat in bed, on my back, hooked me up to everything, and I labored for a few more hours with awful back labor (due to posterior -- which they didn't tell me until I started pushing), and finally consented to an epidural b/c I was so miserable and felt so defeated (and was so tired from lack of sleep, food, and water). I should've had them check dilation before the epi. b/c they checked me right after and I was 7cm, so I think had I known that, I would've been able to see my way through to 10cm. That would've given me much greater movement while pushing (I couldn't get to a squat although I somehow made it to hands & knees), and I think might've helped dislodge ds who was apparently stuck behind my pubic bone (he had a nasty bruise on his forehead). It is all a guessing game, and the c/s might've been inevitable anyway, but I wonder about whether my being able to move in labor would've helped ds turn into a better position and/or whether being able to move more might've helped me get into some better positions for pushing. DS wasn't particularly big so that was clearly not an issue. We consented to the c/s after 2+ hours of pushing b/c I was tired, hungry, defeated, and they were telling us ds was starting to have some questionable decels (further review of records and discussions with the wonderful mamas on MDC have helped me to understand that they were normal, reactive decels), so we decided to avoid an emergency and just go through with it. With everything that had happened up to that moment, it seemed necessary, but in retrospect and with more information than I was told at the time and with clarification of all the misinformation, I think the c/s was really unnecessary.

As for hospitals ... I will not go to a provider who delivers at ds's hospital. I can't even drive in the vicinity of the hospital without having heart palpitations. If I go with a hospital birth, it will be at the most baby-mama friendly hospital in our area, and I have visited many, many people hospitalized there. I am very familiar with the hospital and do not have as many bad feelings about it. Nevertheless, I am staying as far away from there while in labor as possible, hiring a doula (I'm actually looking for a monitrice), and not going (if at all) until I'm in transition (it is a 12 minute drive in traffic). I refuse to be kept in a bed, which will inevitably happen b/c I'm a VBAC. Honestly, I want to have the next baby at home, I'm just not sure it is a reality unless I go UBAC. And as I said before, I seriously doubt my dh would consent to a planned UBAC, but an "accidentally-on-purpose" one might work. I can be pretty stubborn when I don't want something (like to leave to go to the hospital).









Anyway ... I've







long enough. It is good to see and hear from everyone about their stories and recoveries!


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## mamatowill (Aug 23, 2004)

Hi Ladies!
I am going to join you- I have enjoyed reading your stories. I am 10 months pp with my DS. I had an unexpected c-section. Everything went normally for me during my labour. I had great care for the first 12 hours but the last hours of labour I had horrible nurses. The last one kept yelling at me that I wasn't trying hard enough to have the baby!







The nurses stood over me and talked about my condition like I wasn't there. My had broke at 7:15 am, I was in full labour by 4:00pm but they didn't let me push until 9:00pm. By 11:30 I had gone nowhere. DS was unable to engage into the birth canal. The mean nurse said that we were going to have to do vacuum extraction but that I was going to have to push harder than I was. I started to cry because I was exhausted. The OB was really nice and told me that we could do an extraction but a c-section would be better. We went with the c-section and when he was born we found out why he could not engage- DS weighed in at 11 ls. 2oz!







The OB told me that if we had tried anything but a c-section that both DS and I would have been severely damaged. It was good that I had the c-section but it has taken along time for me to be comfortable with the decision.

Sorry for the ramble but this is the first time that I have shared my story outside of close friends.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Hi everyone, I posted this in TAO for the traffic and someone suggested I post it here as well. I'm hoping some of you can provide some insight into these post c-section health problems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I need some opinions and help on a health problem I'm dealing with. It's really stressing me out and upsetting me.
5 weeks ago I had a planned c-section due to pre-eclampsia and severe arthritis in my hips. My recovery was awsome, I was up and walking around with no pain meds whatsoever the next day. In the following couple weeks the only time I needed any pain meds was if I had overdone things. I had sex at only 17 days pp with no pain. My bleeding had all but stopped at that point as well.
Starting 2 weeks ago, I was feeling some pain on the left side about 2" above my incision. Went to the doctor and she put me on antibiotics as I had a previous uterine infection after a d&c (arthritis had me on prednisone through all 4 pregnancies which does leave me more prone to infection) She told me to call her on the weekend if there was not significant improvement. Sat morning she added cipro as I called to say that while there was no improvement I also wasn't any worse. Sunday was a busy day as we went to a baby shower for my dd, on the way home I had to pull over as I had horrible stabbing pains, I made it to a coffee shop with a bathroom and there passed a clot the size of a baseball, the pain temporarily subsided and I continued home but over the next couple hours it got really bad again. I called my OB and she had me come right in to the hospital. She started me on IV antibiotics, pain meds and wanted to admit me, they arranged for the baby to be admitted with me so I agreed, the next day I had an u/s which was normal. If my abdomen is palpated there is a very painful spot (left side just above incision) She had a surgeon see me the next day and he ordered a cat scan, that too was normal, although I am allergic to the dye used so it wasn't as complete as we'd have liked. He arranged for an internist to have a look at me.
At this point I was becoming very frustrated with being in this much pain and having no answers and was getting very teary, of course when the tears started all the nurses (OBS ward) figured it was PPD--I admit I was getting depressed but none of it had anything to do with the baby--just with being in this much pain and not having any answers.
I opted on Friday for release with no answers as I found everyone around me was handling me with kid gloves, I got the impression they felt since they could find no physical signs it had to just be in my head (doctor denied this, but honestly I don't believe her) Every time they would come in to talk to me, I would start crying mainly because I didn't feel they were listening to me--this of course just added proof to their PPD diagnosis.

So my question.... I'm still very convinced there is something wrong that just hasn't been found as yet, anyone have any ideas as to what it could be???
Oh and one more thing--I've been horribly constipated since the pain started and the only way I've been able to have a bowel movement is with the help of an enema or suppository, oral laxatives and diet do absolutely NOTHING.

I do not believe I have PPD, I took the internet test and scored at 38, I don't deny being depressed though, just I don't think it has anything to do with the baby, she brings me such joy and comfort and I can't get enough of her sweet little face.

Ideas--Anyone????


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Shannon,

It very well may be adhesions. And there really isnt anything you can do about it. Also not to scold, but its very possible you have over done things, causing tearing and improper healing. There is a reason they say no sex for at least 4 weeks and preferrable to wait 6. You are suppose to be resting for those first six weeks, lifting nothing more than your baby for 4-6 weeks, at least no driving for 2 weeks. This means no heavy laundry or running around the house too. You need to be more or less a couch potato. The reason is may hurt on one side more than the other is because of how they pulled your baby out of the incision. It is common for some to have this feeling on one side and to have more adhesions on one side.
Just to remind you, you did have major abdominal surgery!







I know its hard to see it that way when you have a cute baby to look after and others to take care of, but you have to give. Unfortunately not taking it easy can cause problems, longer healing time, adhesions and even a hernia in the incision area.
My advice to you at this point since nothing was found in your testing is TAKE IT EASY. Lift nothing heavier than your baby. Don't stand on your feet for long periods of time. Don't lift laundry baskets or wet laundry. Try to sit on your hiney and rest. Ask for help as often as you need it (which is probably more than you are asking now!), and accept that for a period of time you may need to lesson your ideals of how things should be and just focus on healing and resting for right now. Down the road things will come back together.
If in another 6-8 weeks you are still in pain after doing the above, You may want to see someone else or see an internist. You could have a hernia, however I think what could be the problem is not following the standard of care after major abdominal surgery.









Keep us updated!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Yeah, I was afraid I'd just overdone things, I guess when you suddenly feel so much better, even with major surgery than you've felt for literally months...it's hard to keep things still







I did get a call this morning from my ob and she sent my U/S and cat scan to another doc for his opinion, anyway, I have a clotting disorder that had me on heparin throughout my pregnancy, they think that there may actually be a clot in my left fallopian tube, there is indeed decreased blood flow so I've been started on therapuetic levels of heparin again in hopes that we see an improvement soon.
Wish me luck--in the meantime, this kind of pain pretty much assures I'm taking it very easy!!


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

hi all







4.5 months PP here. quick recap: i had about 28 hours natural labor, then a necessary cesarean (she was hung up on a short cord wrapped twice around her neck, didn't start distressing until hour 29). i had two doulas and my husband with me, and a very supportive pair of labor nurses. i loved the labor, it hurt of course but it was such a primal, beautiful experience. and i can't regret the c-birth knowing it was so absolutely necessary in our case.

i love my daughter like i've never loved anyone before ... but i can tell the bonding doesn't go both ways with us. we lost breastfeeding in her fourth week, because of my medical problems and medications, and i think that's a major part of it. there's this huge "disconnect" between us ... i was in labor, we were dancing together, then boom, she was gone and out of me. no natural transition of things, you know? and now, she's hungry, she gets a bottle, again something artificial is between us. no matter how lovingly i bottle-nurse her, nothing can get close to breastfeeding bonding.

she smiles at me, i'm starting to notice sort of an "i love you"-ish look in her eyes once in a while, but honestly she smiles at everybody and loves it when anybody picks her up. she shows no preference for me at all. i have no idea if that's a bonding issue with us ... or does it mean that because i've always been there for her, she feels secure in other people's arms knowing i'll be there again? all i know is, i read about how other babies cry to be in their mama's arms, and my daughter doesn't do that. so i have no idea if it was the c-birth and not breastfeeding that's causing that to happen, or if it could just be her temperament. i just keep holding her and loving her and gazing deeply into her eyes and talking to her, i feel so incredibly connected to her, i am just dying to feel that connection go both ways.

my adhesions are OW OW OW! i'm finding that i can't get back to normal functioning, like i can't bend to lift or clean, and even holding Willow is hard sometimes. i keep propping us up in a nest of blankets and pillows to stay comfy. i worry about when she starts skootching or crawling, my ability to crawl with her or pick her up, my belly feels like it's ripping open again and again. i know i overdo it, i'm just one of those people who can't sit still, you know? still no feeling at the scar, it's totally numb inside and out, all the pain is above and to the right.

have your c-births caused any delayed bonding, or bonding problems, for you and your babes?


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Melllybean, I also worried so much about our bonding, since I was given general anesthesia and I never saw my DD until she was three hours old, and since we also had very serious problems learning to breastfeed, and never did succeed. DD spent those first few hours under lights with DH holding her, and sometimes I feel jealous because I think she is more bonded to him. Honestly, my DD showed no preference for anyone during the early months, and was largely only interested in eating, sleeping, and staring at the black-and-white curtain in my bedroom. But now that she is six months old, she shows a definite preference for me and DH, and I feel more rewarded and more like we've really connected. I say give it time, and patience, and continue to be there for her. It will feel rather one-sided until your DD gets a little older.

I can totally relate to the breastfeeding problems. DD was severely lethargic for her whole first week, due to jaundice and the effects of my general anesthetic. She latched on well during the first few days, and then there was a whole lot of hoopla about her kidneys not functioning properly and some nurse gave her a bottle, and she never latched on again. I pumped for two months and then gave up in exhaustian because she still wouldn't latch after a million different strategies and attempts, I couldn't keep up a supply with the pump, and I was starting to resent her for putting me through all that. It was incredibly sad, and I definitely regret it for the bonding experience I feel I missed, but honestly i don't think DD cares at all.

Be patient with yourself! Give it time, find ways to spend close time with her, and it will come!

******


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Hi all. I just talked a lot in the previous post and I never actually introduced myself. I'm mama to 6 month old Julia, who was born by emergency c-section after a high risk pregnancy and 27 hours of labor. I have a lot of bitter feelings about my c-section, and I spend a lot of time going over it in my mind and trying to work out what went wrong and how I could have prevented it, and I'm having trouble coming to terms with the fact that there really isn't anything I could have done.

I was high risk to begin with because I have a heart condition that caused Julia to also be tachycardic in utero. Also, my uterus was already not intact because of scarring from a D& C I had after an incomplete miscarriage a few years ago, and the scarring had caused what's called a synechia inside the amniotic sac (something like adhesions) which was blocking DD from descending during birth. My water broke before labor started, and I labored 27 hours before I developed a high fever and DD's heartrate became erratic. Turns out she was entangled in the synechia and couldn't descend, and I was developing an infection. I got to 8 cm and stayed there for four hours, and eventually the problems just escalated to the point that we decided to do a section.

DH thinks that if I hadn't refused pitocin, I might have fully dilated sooner, but I don't see how that would have helped the entanglement. When I look at the whole thing objectively, I see that there really was nothing I could have done, and that we're incredibly lucky that the technology existed to help Julia. But I can't help feeling bitter, especially because of the resulting breastfeeding problems (see above post) and because I am very clearly NOT a good candidate for VBAC, so I will have to go through another section if I want another baby, which I do.

I try and just concentrate on the fact that Julia is healthy and happy and thriving, and forget everything else.

Anyway, it's really nice to see this thread. Sometimes i feel really left out and dejected among all the homebirths and natural births around here...


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Wow, a lot of you all are pregnant again! I didn't notice that on the last thread. I guess I'm not paying good attention since some of you are pretty far along. :LOL Congrats!









Things have been crazy here-fil had quintuple bypass surgery, we lost our house and are moving in with the il's, I'm finishing my last 2 classes-so I haven't been able to keep up on the thread.









I can honestly say that I have zero regret or guilt about having a c-section. Ds was malpositioned (had been transverse for months) and never engaged. We went to 43 weeks and tried everything-chiropractic, herbs, moxa, accupuncture, everything I'd ever heard of-to get him to turn and nothing did. I had an incredible surgeon, a speedy recovery, and I never experience pain or numbness. The scar is microscopic. I went through all the normal feelings of "what if" for a couple of months after his birth, but then they just faded away. I will have a c-section again if I ever get pregnant again.

I do have a ? though. Has anyone experienced fluttery feelings that feel exactly like a baby kicking them? Anyone that isn't pregnant, that is?







This started last night and it is freaking me out. I'm definitely not preg. I can't believe it's been almost a year since ds was born!

Thanks Kim for always starting this thread. It is very valuable for us to know that other AP Mamas do have c-sections, even *gasp* by choice.


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## pinky (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mellybean*
i have no idea if it was the c-birth and not breastfeeding that's causing that to happen, or if it could just be her temperament. i just keep holding her and loving her and gazing deeply into her eyes and talking to her, i feel so incredibly connected to her, i am just dying to feel that connection go both ways....
have your c-births caused any delayed bonding, or bonding problems, for you and your babes?

Melly, in retrospect I would say much the same thing about my first dd (now almost 4)...we had a pretty traumatic birth with c-sec, she was in the NICU, we had lots of nursing problems...but I'd have to say that I still think it was more about her temperment/personality than anything else. It took me a long time to feel like I was getting much back from her other than a desperate need to nurse at times, but this never felt much like love. My new dd (also a c-sec) came out of the womb gazing up at me adoringly, go figure.

Consider the up-side, though....I can't even leave the house w/o dd #2..whereas with dd #1 was always pretty content without me as long as she wasn't hungry.

That being said, I have a wonderful close totally bonded relationship with my older daughter. Really, we couldn't be closer. I just think the timetable is different for different babies. Try not to worry--you WILL feel all those things coming back at you..it just might take a little time.


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

Rachel -

I also get the same flutters in my tummy and think that if I were really early pregnant, I'd think it was the baby! LOL! I guess it's just muscle spasms but it definately makes me remember my babies kicking.

As for the not bonding issue, I've had good bonding with all of my babies even with the sections. My first ended up being bottlefed - not due to the section or anything but due to the fact that she has neurological issues and just couldn't latch on. She had a rough time on the bottle too (it would take her an hour and a half to drink a few oz.) and as she got older, she needed extensive speech therapy and still, at almost 15, has 'mouth issues'. I also was not an AP parent with her but I definately bonded with her. I was able to nurse her in the recovery room and had her most of the time in my bed with me. All of my kids were nursed within a few hours of birth - the second was the longest time after birth because they had to cut through the placenta to get her and I bled a LOT so they wanted me to be watched a while without the baby. She went on to nurse for 12 months, my 3rd went 20 months and my 4th weaned at 23 months. I co-slept with them and definately bonded with each one fully despite the section. I know that there's something special I missed by not having them vaginally but I guess my approach to the birth made it that it didn't affect us much.

It's tough when you have a vision of a perfect natural birth and end up with lots of intervention but many times it's so necessary. If you've done all you could and it was dangerous for you to not have a section, you did the best you possibly could and you'd be dead if it were another time in history! I just keep thanking God for the technology we have today that I am able to be a mama to 4 beautiful children when there's no way I could have a vaginal birth. I just really feel blessed.


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

I thought someone had posted a c-sec birth plan, but I can't find it, does anyone have a link to a good one? It looks like I maybe having this baby soon (like maybe this weekend), and I want to go over my birth needs with my doc on Friday morning. He is really good and usually lets me do what I want, but I want things in writing.

Thanks for any help!


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Hi!

I'm at my first experience as a Doula and my client will probably have a c-section (baby is breach at 37w - if the baby still breach next tuesday they will transfer her to another OB to do the CS).

She told me she want to have general anesthesia because someone (she said a nurse) told her that some woman feels the cut with an epidural. I know one can feel some pressure (I did when I had my CS 14y ago) but feeling the cut? First time I hear that! I can't find anything in books I have...

I'll see her tomorrow or friday and bring infos about the effects of anesthesia vs epidural but would like to be able to address her fear of feeling pain if she choose epidural.

Thanks


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

She should not feel any cutting at all with proper anesthesia. There ARE scare stories talking about women feeling them cutting but I really think that's a rare case. I have had 4 sections and know a number of women who have had them and none of us have felt anything. I DO think a spinal is much better than an epidural because of how fast it takes affect - so fast that my feet were already numb as I went to lay down on the table as opposed to the 5-10 minutes it took with the epidural. I've had 2 of each and really loved my spinal.









I'd try to reassure her that epidurals and spinals are safe and effective and the anethesiologist makes sure that there's enough anesthesia to make it comfortable. The doctors ask you if you can feel anything before they start and you can be pretty sure you won't feel any cutting. You DO feel the pressure of them moving the baby down and pulling them out but it's just a shoving, pressure kind of thing and not that hard PLUS the experience of being awake to hear that first cry and see the baby right after it's born is wonderful. I remember hearing my son cry before he was even born (they just had his head out) and crying myself when I heard it was a boy after 2 girls and being told this one was a girl! The joy was amazing.

In addition to this, the recovery from a general is longer and she won't be able to hold the baby for a few hours as opposed to getting the baby in the recovery room with a regional block. It's SO much better for both mom and babe, I think!

Ann


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessmcg*
I thought someone had posted a c-sec birth plan, but I can't find it, does anyone have a link to a good one? It looks like I maybe having this baby soon (like maybe this weekend), and I want to go over my birth needs with my doc on Friday morning. He is really good and usually lets me do what I want, but I want things in writing.

Thanks for any help!

Here's a link to my c/s birth plan:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/tammylc/276736.html


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## ankh (Feb 23, 2005)

In any case said:


> Yep and I've had two c-sections. My concern with the IUD was even more painful periods so the dr put one in that is supposed to lessen the pain, he didn't realise I hadn't had a vaginal birth so was a bit worried when he realised which one he was putting in( for vaginal births)- hope that made sense! It hurt like hell for a few minutes but to be honest it was worth it, my periods aren't painful, just heavy, I felt a bit funny down there for a bit but it's actually good now. I have a couple of friends who have them after having had c-sections and they say the same thing. I did go to a very expereinced dr.
> The pain was like a really bad cramp, but I just breathed through it, it's way better than any other contraceptive I've used, and I think I've done them all!
> 
> hope that helps a bit, If I think of anything else I'll let you know or if you think I missed anything let me know


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks Lisa for the info. Do you know if you got the Mirena or the Paragard? (The Mirena has hormones and lasts 5 years, the Paragard is hormone-free and good for 10.)

I must have cursed myself by writing about not having a period yet, because Aunt Flo came for a visit on Tuesday night. It's very light, and no cramps, thankfully. But still - bummer! I guess I shouldn't complain too much, since I got 10 months, even though I've been away from DS 9 hours and pumping three days a week because of going back to work.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Hi everyone, since I've read a couple of you were not able to make the breastfeeding work maybe you can answer another question for me








I didn't produce any milk at all (previous breast reduction) so Molly has been on formula since day one, when did you start getting periods again?? I have copious amounts of egg white cervical mucous and I'm wondering if I may be ovulating now (I'm 5.5 weeks past c-section)

On the feeling cutting during a c-section. My spinal didn't really take and right from the start I able to feel and move my legs and feel people touching me, I felt a lot during my surgery but I didn't feel the initial cut--even though I felt tons of pain during my c-section--I wouldn't have had it any other way-not a chance--they were at first trying to get me through with just IV pain killers so I could see Molly be born--she too was crying when just her head was out and I can tell you there is no greater pain reliever than seeing that baby you've waited 9 mos to meet, after she was out I just stared at her. Usually they send dad and baby out while they're closing but because I was feeling everything but happy as long as I could look at her my husband never left the room.
When they were offering me a general my biggest thing at first was that I would never deprive my husband (or myself) of seeing our baby born--I couldn't imagine having her come into the world with her mama asleep and no daddy there. So my spinal never worked (my doc didn't realize to what degree until I moved myself from the operating table to my bed) but I never felt the actual cut and if I had to do it again tomorrow I still wouldn't take a general!


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## ankh (Feb 23, 2005)

tammylc,
I got mine done just before I left Canada for the US. It's called the *Flexi-T(+)*I'm just reading the leaflet thingy right now and it says it works by realeasing copper which the dr SWORE was harmless. You can leave this one in for three years I think it's quite new and everything I'm reading here says the copper is ok - who knows?
Ok found it, it says here the "daily intake of copper in food is 100 times higher than the daily release of a copper IUD" I like the fact it doesn't makes your periods worse.
Lisa


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Thank you for your replies









My client is really, I mean REALLY afraid of ANY pain... She is more comfortable with a c-section than a natural birth because of this (I think her baby turned because of this







) and, if there is a little chance she might feel something, I feel that she will go for the general







Well, it's HER birth and HER choice - the only thing I can do is give her all the infos and then support her in her decision and help her welcoming her baby as best as we can.


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## ankh (Feb 23, 2005)

I think thats a real shame she is so frightened, poor thing. I have only had c-sections, one emergency and one planned, compared to my friends who have had vaginal births the recovery is SO much harder.
I did find the spinal with number two better than an epidural. Both made me very headachey and throw up, v.nasty feeling.I remember trying to get Jasmine to latch on while throwing up everywhere and bleeding heavily from My IV- talk about multi-tasking! I think however you get your baby out as long as Mum and Babe are ok then that is what she should focus on.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Maybe I'm a rare individual, because I felt the cut. It didn't HURT, but I definitely felt it. That's why I wound up with a general-- I panicked, kind of freaked out. I didn't want the csection to begin with, I was terrified for the baby and for the whole experience, and so I freaked, and they shot something into my IV and I was out in less than a minute.

I have no idea why I felt it.

Anyway, I seriously regret letting my panic get away with me, because that general anesthetic had a lot of effect on Julia. She was mostly asleep herself when she was born, and she was groggy for almost a week afterward. I blame that grogginess for our breastfeeding trouble.

Plus I completely missed the entire birth, and that bothers me. DH says she was purple like a blueberry bagel, and I would have loved to have had a memory of that moment.


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## wenat (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RacheePoo*
I can honestly say that I have zero regret or guilt about having a c-section. Ds was malpositioned (had been transverse for months) and never engaged. ... I had an incredible surgeon, a speedy recovery, and I never experience pain or numbness. The scar is microscopic. I went through all the normal feelings of "what if" for a couple of months after his birth, but then they just faded away. I will have a c-section again if I ever get pregnant again.


Thank you, RacheePoo, for posting this. It's exactly how I feel.

DS was head-down and perfectly positioned for my entire pregnancy. But when my water broke, he popped out and when my doctor checked my cervix, he couldn't feel the head. A quick ultrasound showed that his shoulder was presenting, which is a problem because if the cord came out, DS would have died. So I was told that I'd be having a c-section in the next 30 minutes (probably faster if they'd felt a cord coming out), but at that point, they figured they had time to clear the operating room from the previous delivery.

I'm SO glad that one of my friends kept telling me that a c-section wasn't the end of the world, that the best thing is "healthy baby, healthy momma." The nurse told me that I had one of the calmest reactions she'd ever had for someone being told that she'd be having a c-s shortly.

There is a funny part to my delivery story. My DH was waiting outside, and heard my doctor (one of the senior obs/gyns at the hospital; most of the nurses wanted to know how I got to be his personal patient) asking where the resident was (I guess for assisting in the c-s). They were saying that there was no resident, and DH is standing there thinking that we've gotten ourselves into a messy situation, and what kind of gong show is this?

Anyways, he gets into the operating room, and an older doctor walks in, and DH said that you could see all the nurses and everyone else in the room visibly straighten themselves up. Turns out that there was no resident to assist, so I got one of the senior surgeons. So between my senior obs-gyn and the hospital's senior surgeon (who had great fun teasing each other while delivering), I had an impeccable c-s, with no complications and no major scar.

I remember being told that DS had the cord wrapped around his neck 3 times. I guess that's another good reason to have had that c-s -- I'd have been horrified if the cord had strangled him on the way out! (One of my pregnancy nightmares.)

There were two bad parts to the cs: the shakes in the recovery room, and the sadistic nurse who made me get out of bed that night. I know that she wasn't really sadistic, and I'm grateful now because I realize that it really helped with the recovery time, but at the time it was pretty hard to do.

We had a rough first week of bf'ing, just because DS was so sleepy all of the time (probably from the drugs that I got), but once the milk came in, he bf'd like a champ, and is still nursing through this pregnancy.

I'll probably have a scheduled c-s with this current pregnancy. It turns out that I have a small pelvis and make babies with huge heads, so unless the baby is early, I'll probably have the same problem this time around.

I just have some questions for mommas who've been there:
* are the post-operation "shakes" better with a spinal or an epidural? Or are they about the same?
* will they let you nurse the baby while you're in the recovery room? I'd really like to be able to get the baby to the breast asap this time, despite the shakes
* is the recovery period easier the second (or third, or more) time around? I was out doing half our evening walk by 4 weeks, and doing laundry and a 3-mile walk by about 6 weeks.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mellybean*
i love my daughter like i've never loved anyone before ... but i can tell the bonding doesn't go both ways with us. we lost breastfeeding in her fourth week, because of my medical problems and medications, and i think that's a major part of it. there's this huge "disconnect" between us ... i was in labor, we were dancing together, then boom, she was gone and out of me. no natural transition of things, you know? and now, she's hungry, she gets a bottle, again something artificial is between us. no matter how lovingly i bottle-nurse her, nothing can get close to breastfeeding bonding.

have your c-births caused any delayed bonding, or bonding problems, for you and your babes?

Sorry it has taken me some time to get back to the thread. First I want to say (((hugs))).
I wanted to address your post because I think that in the more "natural. ap" community where natural vaginal births are touted as the best, and breastfeeding is the ultimate bonding experience -- we get lost in those ideals of that is how our own parenting experiences should be, and if we dont have it that way we are failures.
This is when I say "Ignorance is Bliss". Most women who have csection have no bonding issues at all. They are just as happy and feel just as blessed as their sisters who had vaginal births. Both traumatic vaginal and cbirths can bring about bonding issues, and both can carry problems with breastfeeding.
I know with my first child I sunk a lot of faith into the vaginal birth, immediate bonding, sucking on the breast idealogy -- I think it was my own mind and feelings that played a part in my difficult bonding with my daughter. Even though I successfully breastfed her, and I was attached -- I surely did not share a bond with her like other mothers had with their children. I PTSD from a traumatic csection and I had PPD. This also played a part -- and I nursed my daughter for 19 months.
Can a csection cause bonding problems? Sure, but I think some make it sound as if this is a common occurrence when it isnt. Cannot breastfeeding cause problems? Sure, but probably its more of a "me" thing (meaning the mother) rather than a child thing. Think of the thousands of children that are adopted that are never breastfed or preemies -- and I can assure you if you ask their mothers, the majority will disagree with the premise that they couldnt bond because of not nursing.
You made the comment "nothing can get close to breastfeeding bonding" -- I disagree. Breastfeeding is not the end all and be all! I know women who have breastfed and felt detatched, and I see mothers who bottle feed their babies, like you have described and its the best damn thing in the world to them! This is a premise in your head that breastfeeding bonding is superior -- and actually I will say its not. I quit breastfeeding a child because it made bonding worse! He was much happier to have his bottle and coo and smile at you through a plastic nipple but on the breast he made no eye contact and would fight it! I am of the belief that breastmilk is best for babies, no doubt of the benefits, but is it the best bonding experience -- not for all. It wasnt for me with two of my children.
Melly, I think its important to see how beautiful and happy your baby is, that each relationship with your children is going to be different. Whether its your first or your last, and when its your first, you are just learning and stumbling through the motions -- which can often make it harder. You have had obstacles to overcome, a surgery to heal from, and you had nursing issues, and I hope that with time, and as your daughter grows you will find healing with all of this. Just don't put so much value in things that may or may not be the case or listen to those people who say "this is the only way". There are many ways for us to become mothers, birth babies and bond with them -- and from what I get from you -- you are being a wonderful mom to your daughter!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

<<<DH thinks that if I hadn't refused pitocin, I might have fully dilated sooner, but I don't see how that would have helped the entanglement. When I look at the whole thing objectively, I see that there really was nothing I could have done, and that we're incredibly lucky that the technology existed to help Julia. But I can't help feeling bitter, especially because of the resulting breastfeeding problems (see above post) and because I am very clearly NOT a good candidate for VBAC, so I will have to go through another section if I want another baby, which I do.

I try and just concentrate on the fact that Julia is healthy and happy and thriving, and forget everything else.>>>

Welcome!

I think it is good to focus on that you have a healthy happy baby! And it appears you really did need a csection. I can tell you that a planned csection is much different than an emergency one, and this is from experience. I am planning my third csection now and I am very excited about it!







With my last birth I really thought about the what ifs, and if I could VBAC. This time, I am so glad just to feel great about planning this birth and making it a wonderful experience (since it will be my last) VBAC isnt an option for me and I am just not going to dwell on it. I know that for me I can create a beautiful and wonderful experience.
Breastfeeding is tough after csections, but doable -- it definitely sounds like you had some problems, some that were totally out of control. Things may be different next time. I have a friend who couldn't nurse her first two children but her third one nursed like a champ for 15months. The more I read and talk to other mothers, the more I have come to realize that first time breastfeeding have more struggles than with later children. Milk supplies are lower, takes longer to learn the ropes, longer for milk to come in, etc.
Just know that next time will most likely be different and you can play a huge part in that with planning!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RacheePoo*

I do have a ? though. Has anyone experienced fluttery feelings that feel exactly like a baby kicking them? Anyone that isn't pregnant, that is?







This started last night and it is freaking me out. I'm definitely not preg. I can't believe it's been almost a year since ds was born!

Thanks Kim for always starting this thread. It is very valuable for us to know that other AP Mamas do have c-sections, even *gasp* by choice.










You are welcome!!
Yes, when not pregnant I have experience the same thing, its called phantom kicks. And pretty common. I will say that after this pregnancy, the moving and rolling of a baby inside me will be missed.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessmcg*
I thought someone had posted a c-sec birth plan, but I can't find it, does anyone have a link to a good one? It looks like I maybe having this baby soon (like maybe this weekend), and I want to go over my birth needs with my doc on Friday morning. He is really good and usually lets me do what I want, but I want things in writing.

Thanks for any help!

They are on previous threads. You can search for them by putting in "cesarean support". I am sorry so late in posting, seeing today is Friday. If you can PM me I will try and help you out before your baby is born. Is there something specific you are looking for?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valérie.Qc*
Hi!

I'm at my first experience as a Doula and my client will probably have a c-section (baby is breach at 37w - if the baby still breach next tuesday they will transfer her to another OB to do the CS).

She told me she want to have general anesthesia because someone (she said a nurse) told her that some woman feels the cut with an epidural. I know one can feel some pressure (I did when I had my CS 14y ago) but feeling the cut? First time I hear that! I can't find anything in books I have...

I'll see her tomorrow or friday and bring infos about the effects of anesthesia vs epidural but would like to be able to address her fear of feeling pain if she choose epidural.

Thanks

EEK! I hope you come back to this thread Valerie! GA for a cbirth is so much more dangerous! More people have problems feeling with spinals than with epidurals, but most doctors prefer to operate with a spinal. I had a spinal and it did fail (I had a traumatic, emergency situation) but I had an epidural and it worked great. I will be getting an epidural this time too. I hope you will definitely attend her at her birth and I would be happy to give you lots of tips to make it all more comfortable for her! A good OB WILL NOT cut on a woman that can feel the prick test, if there is an epidural in place they will redose, often rocking the patient a little from side to side to get a complete block, for a spinal they cannot do this but they definitely should not proceed -- often what they will do is dope them up with all kinds of narcotics and give them verset, and then some will just knock the patient out. Wtih an epidural she will full pushing and pulling, especially since her baby is breech, but its not painful. (or shouldnt be)
I really hope she will choose an epidural block because with GA risks are higher, she will have a longer post op recovery time without her baby, she will be given amnesia like meds and sedatives in her IV. GA is fine for an emergency or when certain health issues prevent a spinal or epidural, but its really not recommended nor is it safer.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valérie.Qc*
Thank you for your replies









My client is really, I mean REALLY afraid of ANY pain... She is more comfortable with a c-section than a natural birth because of this (I think her baby turned because of this







) and, if there is a little chance she might feel something, I feel that she will go for the general







Well, it's HER birth and HER choice - the only thing I can do is give her all the infos and then support her in her decision and help her welcoming her baby as best as we can.










If I was her friend I would recommend an epidural for a planned csection. They will do this outside the OR in her room (or she can ask that this be done) They can give her a prick test and see right there if she needs more.
She may think the actual surgery is the real pain. Ummm, no, its not. And I know from speaking to hundreds of women who have had csections under GA that the recovery time was painful and slow. At least with a spinal she can get Duramorph and with the epidural she can have a PCAPump left in the spinal cathetar to administer meds right into the blocked area, continueing to give her pain relief in the lower half of her body by providing a "block" similar to a walking epidural for up to 24 hours after the initial birth. I had mine in 17hours but they dosed it before they took it out and had relief this way several more hours but was able to walk from the bed to the bathroom. With GA they will giver her shots, or oral meds that may interfere with her "mind" and cause sedation. Also with GA she will be given amnesia medication, making those hours after birth a haze at best. (I lost all memory for more than 12-15 hours)

Here is the bottom line: Your client is going to be in pain but there are ways to manage it, and even more so if she chooses the epidural or spinal. Based on her fears, I would recommend an epidural with zofran for nausea. She needs to be aware there will be pushing and tugging. After she has recovered and the catheter removed she needs to move, get out of the bed, go to the bathroom, and hopefully they can provide her with a rocking chair in her room (which will help with gas) I wil be honest in saying gas can be more painful than the incision site so some gas X and a rocking motion, plus eating soft foods is a way to eliminate some of that. She also needs to take pain meds as needed -- if thats every 4 hours, then its every four hours. There is a lot more plusses to having a spinal or epidural than GA, for pain management and psychological reasons. I hope you can "convince" her that they are a better option.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

<<I just have some questions for mommas who've been there:
* are the post-operation "shakes" better with a spinal or an epidural? Or are they about the same?
* will they let you nurse the baby while you're in the recovery room? I'd really like to be able to get the baby to the breast asap this time, despite the shakes
* is the recovery period easier the second (or third, or more) time around? I was out doing half our evening walk by 4 weeks, and doing laundry and a 3-mile walk by about 6 weeks.>>

I did not get the shakes with my epidural. However I did get nauseated from a drop in pressure, i was given ephedrine fro this but no phengran or zofran in my IV. These were the only two drugs I was given for my csection. I cant remember with the spinal.









I did not go to a recovery room, I requested to "recover" in a L&D room. Because my csection was planned, this arrangement was made before hand. This is something they can accomadate you with. My csection was 30min from start to finish and within 15min of being in the L&D room my baby was half-ass nursing. (he was more interested in looking around) My babe was very alert and stayed awake for nearly an hour after his birth.

I can say that my second csection was almost pain free. Alot of folks hate for me to tell this because csection are evil of course and so much worse than vaginal births. My last one was so awesome. I had the epidural block for 17hours after and it was wonderful. I could move around the bed, could sit up, sit even cross legged in the bed and felt fine with no pain. My biggest "pain" was getting out of the bed and moving around. However once the caths and ivs were removed I began moving and took a shower. I also was sewn up verses staples and I really think this made a big difference for me. I did a lot of things to facilitate my recovery, including meditation.


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

Thanks Kim, I tried searching for the old threads before, but couldn't find them









Here is my birth plan. I combined several different ones I found online, let me know what you think. Just FYI, this is my 3rd c-sec all at our small local hospital.

Jessica McGregor's Birth Plan
Date: 3/2/05
Birth Attendant:
Birth Facility: Pullman Regional Hospital

Following is a statement of our childbirth desires. We have educated ourselves prior to making these choices and feel that we are prepared to follow through on them. We understand that complications do arise and in such instances trust [physician/midwife] to make necessary decisions. We greatly appreciate your cooperation in realizing our plan.

CESAREAN SECTIONS
I would like my partner to be present at all times during the operation.
I would like to be conscious.
I would like the screen lowered so I can see the baby coming out.
I would like to have one hand free to touch the baby.
We would like to videotape and/or photograph the operation and baby coming out.
I would like to have immediate contact with the baby (if the baby is in good health).
POST-BIRTH
I would like to hold my baby immediately after birth.
I would like to wait until the umbilical cord stops pulsating before it's clamped and cut.
I would like to postpone newborn procedures until I have had a chance to bond with my baby.
I would like all newborn procedures to take place in my presence.
If I can't be with my baby for newborn procedures, my partner would like to stay with the baby at all times.
I plan to breastfeed my baby.
I would like to breastfeed my baby immediately following the birth.
The following pacifiers can be offered to my baby:
I would prefer that no artificial nipples (bottles, pacifiers) be offered to my baby at any point.
I would like 24-hour rooming-in with my baby.

Please let me know anything I should change/add/remove!
Thanks so much!


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks Kim!

I'm going to do my best to convince her and I'll be there for her the day of the birth.

I'm already walking on eggshells with her tho... but I hope for the best.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Valerie ... one other thing ... she shouldn't kid herself that GA avoids all pain. There is still the pain _after_ the birth to contend with. And that can be a lot rougher for many. Moreover, GA will be much, much, much more likely to really interfere with her memory of the birth, breastfeeding, and her bonding. Finally, I seriously doubt that most drs. will allow a patient, barring an emergency situation, to have GA for a c/s b/c of the dramatic and dangerous effects it can have on the baby. GA passes through to the baby in much greater doses than epidural or spinal meds. Most drs. don't want that kind of potential liability. She should discuss pain options with her dr. now. In addition, if it is a planned c/s, she may be able to talk to the anesthesiologist before the birth and make her fears and wishes known. That in and of itself may help calm her. Good luck!


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

We are in Canada, lawsuits are rare... So liability won't be too much of an obstacle to her "wish"









I'm going to see her this afternoon - hope she will really listen to me.

Oh, the breastfeeding argument won't do any good... she just wait for an excuse to not even try...


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

She just doesn't sound like the "Doula" type-IYKWIM
I'm in Canada too but I don't think I've ever heard of them ok'ing a general just cause mom's a wuss. (btw, should you ever want to refer her to this thread to try to change her mind, lemme know and I"ll edit my post :LOL)


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

On the breast feeding/bonding issue, I agree with OTF, I think in being a member of this community sometimes we place far to much pressure on ourselves. I was already 90% sure I would not be able to breast feed, but I had set myself up that I "needed" to at least feed her formula at the breast and bought myself a lact-aid. The LC at our hospital was great and she tried with us but finally she said to me. You are hating this, your baby is really hating this, you both LOVE skin to skin contact and staring into each other's eyes--do that, how much bonding are you doing with you crying and her screaming?? When I let go of my guilt that my baby would not bond if she wasn't feeding at the breast I was able to enjoy the bonding that was happening while bottle feeding my little bundle. My dh also loves that he can enjoy it too, he strips his shirt off and nuzzles her close to him adn stares in her eyes while feeding, as a result, Molly really is bonded to both of us almost the same (he is off on a parental leave-so with her as much as I am)

Please, please, please, let go of your guilt, instead, enjoy your baby.


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
She just doesn't sound like the "Doula" type-IYKWIM
I'm in Canada too but I don't think I've ever heard of them ok'ing a general just cause mom's a wuss. (btw, should you ever want to refer her to this thread to try to change her mind, lemme know and I"ll edit my post :LOL)

She's not the doula type







: I think I was "imposed" by someone else in the medical field because of her situation... It's hard.

I won't refer her to this site - she would freak with all the alternative lifestyles :LOL She's really mainstream... I'm learning a lot about respect and letting go


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Well Valerie,
I am really glad you are here visiting out little section of mothering, because maybe if this info doesnt help this mom it may help others you work with.

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I wanted to update everyone on my latest OB appointment.









I am liking my doctor more and more. Even though she has a high csection rate, I feel like she is really intune with women in general and I like that she is pretty candid. I make my appointments for the earliest time possible in the day, but arrive 45min early because once I drop my boys off at preschool I have nothing to do. This has really paid off for me because there is NO ONE there in the office and I get a lot of one on one time with the OB.

My BP was the lowest it has ever been, 120/60. My pressure is consistently lower with this nurse. I think she knows how to get a better reading on a fat chick. Luckily the med student next door takes my pressure regularly. I am trying to watch for pre-e this time around, and dont want to alarm my OB if there is no need. Baby I believe is laying transverse, we will know in a few weeks what position she will be in for the rest of the pregnancy. I still think she is predominately breech or transverse and I can only feel her roll clockwise. So far no weight gain. I still weigh 4lbs heavier than I did the day I had Jack but I feel good and I am eating well.

I changed my pediatrician for my csection for this appointment. I went with one that was more intune to how I parent. He is an older man and one I have really developed a good relationship with. So I don't think there will be any problems at the hospital.

Since I have not used this OB for past births I talked to her about her surgery standards and post op care. Nothing I have asked for is out of the ordinary, except for requesting sutures but she has no problem doing them. I am contemplating staying the full three days after this birth. Its really going to be based on my experience this time, how I feel, and care for the other three children. If I have childcare I think I would like to stay the full three days, but if I feel good and childcare is a problem, I will only stay 48hrs.

At my next appointment I am going to talk about cord cutting. If my husband doesnt want to do it, I think I might. He could have done the actual cutting last time but "cared not too". I also want to see if I can get the OB to let a 3d person into my csection. We will see though. I dont want to push the envelope too much!


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Henry's_Mamma*
Finally, I seriously doubt that most drs. will allow a patient, barring an emergency situation, to have GA for a c/s b/c of the dramatic and dangerous effects it can have on the baby. GA passes through to the baby in much greater doses than epidural or spinal meds. Most drs. don't want that kind of potential liability.

Unlike my doctor, who wanted me to have GA so he could 'squeeze me in' during his lunch hour after the epidural attempts failed...









Valerie-in some cases she won't be able to see her baby for 24 hours if she has GA. She'll recover on another floor. Maybe that will be enough to convince her. I had a spinal and didn't feel a thing. The threat of GA and the potential problems with it make me horrified that someone would actually choose it.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I wanted to post my birthplan for my previous csection. I think there will be some modification to it for this upcoming birth.

Cesarean birth plan

As this is a planned Cesarean birth we are looking forward to a positive birth experience. We want to participate in this birth to the fullest. We have listed our preferences below, these decisions have been made after research, consultation, and thought. Therefore your help in attaining these goals is very much appreciated.

We would appreciate preoperative blood work and tests to be done on an out patient basis, and hospital admission on the day of the birth.

My sister, XXXXXX, is to stay with me the entire time, even for procedures and administration of anesthesia.

I would like an epidural for pain relief with continuous pain relief after surgery with a PCAPump.

I would like the catheter put in after anesthesia is administered.

We do not wish to have medical students present during our cesarean.

My arms are not to be strapped down unless general anesthesia becomes necessary during an emergency.

We would like the option of viewing the birth either by lowering the screen or positioning a mirror.

Kim would like a verbal description of the birth as is occurs. Kim welcomes conversation during the process.

We would like to take photos as we did of our first child.

Kim would like to see the baby immediately after birth if at all possible. She would also like to be given the baby or have it held near her in the OR.

No mind altering drugs are to be administered without Kim's expressed permission. I am aware that some hospitals routinely sedate the mom for the repair portion of the surgery. It is important to Kim not to feel drugged or be unable to remember the events of the birth.

Kim would like to have the incision closed with sutures rather than staples.

We would like our baby to be with us in recovery. Kim wishes to breastfeed immediately. Please do not give our baby bottles of formula or water and no pacifiers.

Kim does not want to be deprived of liquids or food after her cesarean.

Please remove Kim's IV and catheter as soon as it is no longer medically necessary. She wishes to get up and move after the birth of our baby as soon as possible.

** I had a seperate sheet that was only about our baby and his care following birth.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

In my above birthplan I said I did not want medical students attending my csection. When I arrived at the hospital and talked to anest. that was doing it, he asked if two students could watch while he inserted the epidural. I agreed. During this time we talked about drug options, as I did not want mind altering drugs or sedatives, this included phenegran. The students were surprised by this and asked him several questions about my refusal since it is standard. (I think they were more surprised I knew the protocol) Anyway, I agreed to have them attend my csection. My thought was this, they were going to be out of the way and two, I wanted them to see that patients can make choices about their care and it not be a disaster. That you don't have to drug us into oblivion.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

I'll have to dig up my medical records to find this out for sure, but is it really common to do mind altering drugs/sedatives in an epidural after a c/s? Per my dh (and others) I was pretty sane after my c/s but tired, presumably b/c I'd been awake for 36+ hours. I didn't specify not to. But I felt fairly normal (well as normal as one can), and I remember the surgery, recovery, moving to my room, and meeting my ds (4+ hours later







). I think they actually used duramorph (sp?) since I got VERY itchy post-op. Does that seem possible? Just thinking aloud here ...


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Well, I think WE convinced my client









Ya ladies, I talked about you







Just to say that I'd ask a group of woman who had c-section what they would suggest between GA and epidural and that everyone had reply that epidural was way better and safer than GA









She really is eager to hold her baby so I put the emphasis on the fact that the recovery time for GA is longer than for an epidural









I'm really glad I came here









Thanks again!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Henry's_Mamma*
I'll have to dig up my medical records to find this out for sure, but is it really common to do mind altering drugs/sedatives in an epidural after a c/s? Per my dh (and others) I was pretty sane after my c/s but tired, presumably b/c I'd been awake for 36+ hours. I didn't specify not to. But I felt fairly normal (well as normal as one can), and I remember the surgery, recovery, moving to my room, and meeting my ds (4+ hours later







). I think they actually used duramorph (sp?) since I got VERY itchy post-op. Does that seem possible? Just thinking aloud here ...

Yes it is common. Phenegran is a sedative. They also put other meds in the IV, not your epidural, to help relax you during the suturing part of your surgery. Since you had an epidural, its possible you got nothing, but that is not the norm. Duramorph does cause itchiness! I almost got that but decided to go with the other.


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa72*
tammylc,
I got mine done just before I left Canada for the US. It's called the *Flexi-T(+)*I'm just reading the leaflet thingy right now and it says it works by realeasing copper which the dr SWORE was harmless. You can leave this one in for three years I think it's quite new and everything I'm reading here says the copper is ok - who knows?
Ok found it, it says here the "daily intake of copper in food is 100 times higher than the daily release of a copper IUD" I like the fact it doesn't makes your periods worse.
Lisa

I think the only copper IUD that's available in the US is the Paragard, which can make periods heavier and increase cramping. The Mirena has hormones in it, and from what I was reading about 30% of woman stop having periods altogether on it. But I don't want the hormones, so I guess I'll have to take my chances.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Sheehs...I've been missing you guys!

13 mnths post 2nd c/b and doing great! I still don't have most of the feeling around my scar though.

Dh is scheduled for a vsectomy next thursday! The doc was a little concerned because of our ages. Then dh said, Megan has had 2 fairly close c-sections and we would prefer to not have another one. Then the doc understood our concern and had no more issues.

I'll have to read to catch up with everyone.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Yes it is common. Phenegran is a sedative. They also put other meds in the IV, not your epidural, to help relax you during the suturing part of your surgery. Since you had an epidural, its possible you got nothing, but that is not the norm. Duramorph does cause itchiness! I almost got that but decided to go with the other.

Yup, I cna't remember what they gave me but i itched like crazy...so they gave me dropwsy benadryl







. I was off my rocker for days. I would start a story stop dead mid secntence and jsut stare off for about 30 minutes. THen I'd start my story bak where I had left off like nothing happened...scarey.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
In my above birthplan I said I did not want medical students attending my csection. When I arrived at the hospital and talked to anest. that was doing it, he asked if two students could watch while he inserted the epidural. I agreed. During this time we talked about drug options, as I did not want mind altering drugs or sedatives, this included phenegran. The students were surprised by this and asked him several questions about my refusal since it is standard. (I think they were more surprised I knew the protocol) Anyway, I agreed to have them attend my csection. My thought was this, they were going to be out of the way and two, I wanted them to see that patients can make choices about their care and it not be a disaster. That you don't have to drug us into oblivion.









Yup, we don't have to be unknowledgeable as patients and its always fun to teach them a thing or too :LOL


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RacheePoo*

I can honestly say that I have zero regret or guilt about having a c-section. Ds was malpositioned (had been transverse for months) and never engaged. We went to 43 weeks and tried everything-chiropractic, herbs, moxa, accupuncture, everything I'd ever heard of-to get him to turn and nothing did. I had an incredible surgeon, a speedy recovery, and I never experience pain or numbness. The scar is microscopic. I went through all the normal feelings of "what if" for a couple of months after his birth, but then they just faded away. I will have a c-section again if I ever get pregnant again.


You know, I don't have guilt over it either since I stopped letting ppl make me feel guilty. If we were to have another babe you better believe I'd find the best surgeon and the hosptial with the ebst policies (we have aTON here) and have the best delivery I could. I only regret the post-c/b tummy sag. It won't go away :LOL


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wenat*
I'm SO glad that one of my friends kept telling me that a c-section wasn't the end of the world, that the best thing is "healthy baby, healthy momma."

I'm glad that was comforting for you, but people telling me the same pissed me off and upset me to no end. I went from a planned homebirth to a planned c-section over the course of two weeks, and I suffered a really profound sense of loss. I needed to acknowledge and work through that loss, not have it minimized by others.

I had to really fight hard not to smack the coworker who told me that "C-sections are no big deal. I had two myself." Not to mention all the people who said "Well, at least your baby will have a round head."


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammylc*
Not to mention all the people who said "Well, at least your baby will have a round head."

Funny how things that make one person feel better makes another feel terrible. I would never say any of those things to a person who was in my situation. If I knew they were ok with a c/b and felt no loss I would be very blunt with them but it totally depends on the person.

The round head comment is one I used to make out of defense. If I was the one who said it then no one else could say it and hurt me...kwim?


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammylc*
I'm glad that was comforting for you, but people telling me the same pissed me off and upset me to no end. I went from a planned homebirth to a planned c-section over the course of two weeks, and I suffered a really profound sense of loss. I needed to acknowledge and work through that loss, not have it minimized by others.

I had to really fight hard not to smack the coworker who told me that "C-sections are no big deal. I had two myself." Not to mention all the people who said "Well, at least your baby will have a round head."

I have to agree with Tammy, here. Oh, and b/c I was in labor for a long time and pushed for 2+ hours, my ds most certainly didn't have a round head. Poor kid had a very bruised conehead. But he's recovered nicely. :LOL


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Henry's_Mamma*
I have to agree with Tammy, here. Oh, and b/c I was in labor for a long time and pushed for 2+ hours, my ds most certainly didn't have a round head. Poor kid had a very bruised conehead. But he's recovered nicely. :LOL

Well, that sucks. I labored long and hard with Tracy. My contrax were so intense but not productive that they laimed I was bordering on rupture. I would contract on the little meter up to about 120 and stay there for 45 minutes or more...damn pit! I never got anywhere near pushing with him.
BUt sinfe none of my boys ever drop or engage and always float it makes sense they wouldn't be coneheaded or anything.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

I went to my well-woman on Monday and met the only mw in my area that delivers at the only hospital I would consider delivering at. She was great! And the practice is hiring another mw (my friend's friend, actually) so they will have 2 mws rotating on-call w/each other vs. the mw rotating on call with the OBs. I really, really liked her and she was sympathetic to my c/s, offered great advice and wisdom, told me what she would've done differently with my labor/delivery to avoid the c/s, and that I was a great candidate for a VBAC. I'm so excited and relieved. Almost makes me want to start ttc. Almost. :LOL I know a number of people who have delivered with her and everyone was pleased, so I'm really excited. I may just get the birth I want next time (well almost -- I'd really like to deliver at home, but that's out of the question unless we UBAC).

Just had to share b/c I'm dancing on air.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

YAY!! How wonderful for you! Good providers can be so hard to find!


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

I'm surprised to hear people say that they felt more with spinals. Anesthesia staff will usually tell you that you can feel more pressure and tugging with an epidural and that a spinal will provide more complete deadening of sensation. I have worked in two hospitals, one where spinals with duramorph was standard, the other where epidural with either a PCA of morphine or leave the epidural in and run demerol ("POPS") through it for 24-36 hours after the c/sec. While the duramorph does tend to cause the itches, it seems that the spinal/duramorph combo works better *for most* people in terms of good long term relief. The big, BIG loser is GA with a PCA pump of IV demerol or morphine for post-op pain control. Those women often wake up from surgery wanting to die. They often need versed (which doesn't kill pain, just makes you forget that you were in it) in addition to morphine b/c they wake from anesthesia in such pain - and wind up being so groggy from all the 'analgesia' that they can't enjoy their baby (not to mention they often don't remember the period later). Someone who thinks they are going to avoid pain by having GA needs to go hang out in a L&D recovery area for a day or so and see the unfortunate few that have their c/sec under general. It is a really big problem! I'm glad that having c/sec's under general have become blessedly rare. The anesthesia staff really does all they can to avoid it.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Hi. I didn't even realize there was a new thread..







:

I was wondering-- has anyone had strange premenstrual cramps since their section, like you can feel the incision acting wierd, or a kind of internal itchiness? I'm 7 days late and don't feel 'typically' premenstrual but I do have this weird itchy sensation... like my uterus is crawling or something... I don't know how to explain it.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I am 6 mo pp and trying to be gentle with myself. I feel that my c-birth was medically necessary. Unfortunately my first one was not, and that is the one I beat myself up over daily, if not hourly. I dont know if I will ever get past it. I feel like its always right there in the front of my mind. I relive both births over and over again in my mind all the time, and especially with the first one, I think what if I had done this or that differently ...

I am now considering #3 just for another shot at vbac. I wanted it SO bad. I have a friend on a board that had a c-birth and tried for a VBAC with #2 just as much as I did, and she had a c-birth in the end also, and she has given me some perspective on it, and given me things to think about and I am grateful for that. I am breastfeeding, and I think that it helps me SO much to see that my body DOES know what to do for my baby. I am sure I'll be posting more on this thread again.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*







Hi. I didn't even realize there was a new thread..







:

I was wondering-- has anyone had strange premenstrual cramps since their section, like you can feel the incision acting wierd, or a kind of internal itchiness? I'm 7 days late and don't feel 'typically' premenstrual but I do have this weird itchy sensation... like my uterus is crawling or something... I don't know how to explain it.









I had that type of feeling when I was pg with Bryce.

7 days late....I would have already tested...


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
I had that type of feeling when I was pg with Bryce.

7 days late....I would have already tested...

Um... that's not what you were supposed to say.









I would test, but I seriously don't want to waste the money; besides, with BooBah I got a BFN when I was 7 days late (followed by a BFP on day 10). And I did feel premenstrual last week, and I don't feel pregnant now...

Gosh, listen to me make excuses!









I'll test on Monday if she hasn't shown up by then...


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Um, ok. I'm sorry.

Have you been doing anything out of the noraml? Start a new workout routine? Is BooBah nursing less? Are you stressed? Maybe you are just having a long cycle. It happens you know. I was 8 days late a few months ago. I was just late, nothing more.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
Have you been doing anything out of the noraml? Start a new workout routine? Is BooBah nursing less? Are you stressed? Maybe you are just having a long cycle. It happens you know. I was 8 days late a few months ago. I was just late, nothing more.

BooBah is definately nursing less, but I think her brother is more than making up for the difference.







It's a viscious cycle; BeanBean drinks all the milk, BooBah nurses for a while but is still hungry so she asks for food, I make less milk, BeanBean drinks it all up even more quickly.









I'm very stressed right now, because my teeth are rotting and I can't find a dentist







I'm in pain all the time, and my blood pressure is really freaking high. It totally sucks.

Today I feel dizzy and nauseated, though.







And Mike's had a migraine for the past few days... bleh.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Hi, I'm Jen, and I am currently 19 months post-partum. My son Michael started out at a birth center but then was transferred and delivered by unplanned c-section after 44 hours of labor when he didn't descend (I believe he was at -2 station when delivered). The cause was determined to be a triple nuchal cord that was wrapped so tightly that my midwife had to uncoil it before she could even remove him from my uterus.

The whole experience has been a mixed bag for me. The surgery went perfectly, I had a fantastic surgeon, and I healed quickly. My son is so beautiful and healthy and I'm so thankful for him, but at the same time I feel like less of a woman and like I failed.

I want to have another child but both my husband and I are afraid. I worry about things like rupturing the incision even though I know rationally that the risk is extremely low. He says he doesn't want to see me in that much pain ever again; he felt so helpless when they wheeled me away to cut me open and it scared him badly.

My scar is more or less invisible now (low transverse incision) but there is still an area about 1-1/2" in width around it that is numb. I don't like looking at it and it bothers me if either my husband or I touches it. It makes me feel so disconnected from my own body. I don't think it's possible but psychosomatically I believe I can feel the scar inside, on my uterus.

As far as my son goes, I have a hard time saying "when my son was born," or referring to his delivery as a birth. I know he was born, but I don't feel as if I had anything to do with it, if you know what I mean.

So, there it is. It's nice to find other moms to talk to about this.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

On this topic, how soon after a c-section is it safe to get pregnant again?? I haven't had a period yet (c-s was 6 weeks ago) but did have unprotected sex. I'm not thinking I am pregnant but if I was, is there even any chance for the baby??


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I was told that I ought to wait a year to be on the safe side.

oh, and I had a dr's appt today-- I'm not pregnant, just late. :LOL


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Hooray for late periods







After rading your last post I can see how you would be. It sounds a tad stressful for you right now.

According to everything I have hear there is no risk for the baby if you get pg too soon. It doesn't cause m/c or anything like that. I think they would prefer a year for VBAC but I got pg when Tracy was around 6 months and they didn't talk like it was a big deal. I have a friend who got pg when her babe was 4 weeks old...the girls are only 9.5 months apart... and she had no problems with either her or the babe.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Wow!! Had she had a c-section for her first?? I guess the biggest worry would be stress on the uterine incision--I wouldn't want that splitting or anything!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I just wanted to say sorry for being MIA.
My FIL died and I had to suddenly go out of town. We leave in 8 days to go on vacation. Which we will need.

UPDATE: My husband has decided that he would like to cut the cord when the baby is delivered. I am very excited by this. I am going to schedule my 4D ultrasound for next month. I am looking forward to doing it!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Wow!! Had she had a c-section for her first?? I guess the biggest worry would be stress on the uterine incision--I wouldn't want that splitting or anything!

If this was in reference to my friend....those bbies were c-sections 5 and 6. She has 7 kids. Her first was vag the rest were by c/b.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I just wanted to say sorry for being MIA.
My FIL died and I had to suddenly go out of town. We leave in 8 days to go on vacation. Which we will need.

UPDATE: My husband has decided that he would like to cut the cord when the baby is delivered. I am very excited by this. I am going to schedule my 4D ultrasound for next month. I am looking forward to doing it!


Yay for your dh cutting the cord.







for your loss


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

Hello friends of the c-birth thread,

I posted in one of these threads a long time ago, when I was working through the c-section I got for my first baby (who's now 20 months old!). The story then was: failed homebirth, rushing down the mountain to the hospital due to unremitting late decels, 42 hours of labor total, complete stalling once at the hospital (go figure), extremely painful contractions the whole time (but I managed to wait 24 hours before getting an epidural), being told by the on-call OB 14 hours into my labor, "When you go into labor, blah blah blah," pitocin, phenergan, dilating to 8 or 9 before more late decels made them stop the pitocin - at which point my contractions stalled again - and finally fresh meconium in the line, which immediately precipitated the c-section.

My recovery was hard for the first two weeks (never had had surgery before, much less labor) then very good. I had numbness in my right thigh for nearly 8 months, but now it's gone completely; scar felt "weird" for about a year, but pretty much ditto. My milk came in at 5 days, from which time onward my baby nursed like a champ. I was happy in the hospital - great nursing care, great doctor (not the above-mentioned pud), my midwife, my doula, my sister and my partner with me throughout. I was groggy (and exhausted, and starving) the first day, but by the first morning pp I was enjoying my baby more than I had even expected. I got over the loss of my perfect homebirth very quickly; the only disappointment was that I couldn't lift or carry my baby for nearly 6 weeks.

Now I'm due in June and have been seeing my same mw for prenatal care. But as time goes on, the idea of trying it at home again feels less and less possible. In fact, it's like I've already given up on it in my mind. I know that I CANNOT labor (VBAC) in the hospital - I know what that's like, I tried that (though unwillingly). More importantly, I've seen what it's like there. I don't know how anyone can labor and deliver under those conditions. I feel like my only two options (different as they as) are: HBAC or repeat c-section.

I know that I will NOT be able to do another transport. That was almost the worst part of the whole experience. I know that I shut off my labor with my will, that I could never allow myself to relax and trust and labor naturally in a hospital setting. I don't really want to go to the hospital at all this time either, don't want to leave my baby boy at home, but I also know that there's no guarantee we won't have to transfer again. And I can't have that or something. So I would rather sign on for the c-section - the known, not the uncertain and unknown - again.

I feel so guilty and conflicted about these thoughts. I am ashamed to tell them to anyone, homebirth proponents and c-section advocates alike. The former will think me weak and a failure; the latter will have their knowing, I-told-you-so stance. I just don't know what to do, exactly. My partner would be thrilled about a c-section decision because he hates the idea of doing things, risky things, under uncontrolled conditions. The whole transport-down-the-mountain and the endless labor ordeal (and major emergency surgery) last time nearly finished him off. I don't know if he can take much more. He would rather put our fate in a doctor's hands (he doesn't like our mw that much to boot).

I hope this is the right place to post this. And sorry for the length.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Welcome to our little part of mothering MeliXXa! And congrats on your upcoming arrival.

I wanted to say that in many ways I could relate to your story even though I did not plan for a homebirth. I did plan a natural Bradley birth with my first baby however.
I think all of your feelings are valid and concerning at the same time. Also, I think you are right in seeing and realizing there is judgement on both sides of the fence. I've really never felt comfortable in either camp sense "choosing" a repeat csection with my youngest child. Even though I have very valid real concerns and a medical condition that warrents a cesarean birth.

From reading your story, it seems to me that your csection, was in fact needed. You labored, you tried to do it, you did things to facilitate labor and also you went for a homebirth. I think we read time and time again in this forum and other like minded ones that "medical intervention" is to the detriment of women and birth, however it has shown time and time again it is needed, facilitate babies coming into the world that may have died or suffered other complications, or women -- in empowering them to continue with pain relief. Used wisely, it is a wonderful tool, used foolishly and it can be just the opposite.

I think you have to focus on what YOU want and what YOU feel comfortable doing. It sounds to me is that you don't want to labor in the hospital and you really don't want to risk another "failed" homebirth with a transfer. (I hate to use failed as the word but nothing comes to mind at this moment) There are women who have posted on these threads currently and in the past that planned VBACs and HBACs and changed their mind. Their intuition told them differently or they realized that having a vaginal birth was not as important as they once believed it would be.

Going into my pregnancy with Jack, I considered a VBAC. I knew that physically it was not a good idea, but I had a doctor who would have allowed a trial of labor. I read the risks. I talked to doctors, CNMs, and lay midwives about my condition. The bottom line was this, for me to have a successful VBAC I would have had a baby the right size -- 7lbs, in the right position, and a unmedicated labor with nothing to alter labor at all and I still would have 50-50 chance of ending up in the OR. I've learned several things through the years -- sometimes, the risk is not worth it no matter how small. I felt more at peace with what I knew, then what I didn't know. I did accept that having a vaginal birth was not in the cards for me, and thats okay. I've made what some think to be a horrible experience into a beautiful and wonderful experience. One I do not regret. I healed faster, and had a better experience then most women I know who have children -- including those who have had homebirths.
For me, I believe this was partly because I made a decision and meditated on that decision and made choices to make having a csection a wonderful, beautiful experience. I had peace with my decision and carried out a plan with a wonderful OB. I had a quick and fairly easy recovery. I know that during surgery when they pulled Jack from me, I felt healed. I've never regretted it and I don't feel guilt nor shame over the decision to have a scheduled repeat csection.

If you want to VBAC and are at peace with it, then by all means do it but if you don't, and feel that a csection is in your best interests, then get a plan and make it a wonderful experience for yourself and your family. Do what makes you most comfortable and what you feel in your gut, vs listening to others and worrying about judgement. You didn't fail and you won't be a failure if you choose the path less natural or less "mothering".

Take care of you!


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Melixxa, I couldn't agree more with what OTF said. We will be here to support you no matter what your choice is. Some of us are adamant about not having a repeat c/b, some of us (like me) have decided that that's the way we'll go if and when we have another baby. I hope you will feel welcome and safe in our little thread.


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Hello ladies,

I read this thread on occasion to glean your purls of wisdom in preparation for my c/s (due to uterine reconstruction).

Kim congratulations on your pregnancy







, I'm so happy for you!!

I noticed you were going to cut the cord if your husband wasn't willing - just curious how that would logistically work out, I'm assuming the doc would remove the placenta and then bring baby and placenta to you? I'm wondering if anyone has been able to delay cutting the cord until it stops pulsing? Something I read talked about having the placenta held next to the baby while waiting for the cord to stop pulsing and then cutting it. I like that idea.

Lisa


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Hi Lisa







. I knit, too.







Knitting rules!

I'm having several symptoms of pregnancy right now, despite the fact that a negative test usually gets rid of any psychosomatic symptoms right away. I have a sneaking suspiscion that I'll be testing again later in the week.







I wish I'd bought a whole bunch of those cheap tests that they're always talking about in the TTC threads.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisaG*
Hello ladies,

I read this thread on occasion to glean your purls of wisdom in preparation for my c/s (due to uterine reconstruction).

Kim congratulations on your pregnancy







, I'm so happy for you!!

I noticed you were going to cut the cord if your husband wasn't willing - just curious how that would logistically work out, I'm assuming the doc would remove the placenta and then bring baby and placenta to you? I'm wondering if anyone has been able to delay cutting the cord until it stops pulsing? Something I read talked about having the placenta held next to the baby while waiting for the cord to stop pulsing and then cutting it. I like that idea.

Lisa

Lisa,
I am so glad you posted. I think about you often and glad you are still around. Actually the cord can be cut after pulling the baby out, the placenta is still inside. Because my arms will be free they can give me some scissors and I can cut the cord over the sterile field. My husband wants to do it now though which makes me happy.








So far I have only read a handful of stories, on the web, that said they kept the placenta intacted after a csection. My OB has told me, as has another that really that is not feasable. I was given several reasons from infection (mostly to mom) to causing problems with the newborns when they are being checked and worked on. Most csection babies (not JAck, he came out screaming and very alert) often have to be manhandled and stimulated to get their juices flowing. The only reason I asked was because of stories I read online, for me leaving a placenta intact is not medically beneficial as my husband and I have ABO incompatibility and the cord needs to be cut right away.
I think its something to discuss with your own doctor though. The internet is sure not the place to gather info on this particular subject as I have not seen anything medically documented to say this is feasable, healthy, and done. One thing to also look at is the ability to do it too. I know you have had reconstruction and this may not be option based on where your placenta decides to settle or grow. With Elizabeth, my placenta was in one horn and with Jack it was towards the front of my uterus. This time my placenta is lying on the backside of my uterus -- which I actually prefer because I can feel movement really well, as early as 13 weeks.


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Lisa,
I am so glad you posted. I think about you often and glad you are still around. Actually the cord can be cut after pulling the baby out, the placenta is still inside. Because my arms will be free they can give me some scissors and I can cut the cord over the sterile field. My husband wants to do it now though which makes me happy.








So far I have only read a handful of stories, on the web, that said they kept the placenta intacted after a csection. My OB has told me, as has another that really that is not feasable. I was given several reasons from infection (mostly to mom) to causing problems with the newborns when they are being checked and worked on. Most csection babies (not JAck, he came out screaming and very alert) often have to be manhandled and stimulated to get their juices flowing. The only reason I asked was because of stories I read online, for me leaving a placenta intact is not medically beneficial as my husband and I have ABO incompatibility and the cord needs to be cut right away.
I think its something to discuss with your own doctor though. The internet is sure not the place to gather info on this particular subject as I have not seen anything medically documented to say this is feasable, healthy, and done. One thing to also look at is the ability to do it too. I know you have had reconstruction and this may not be option based on where your placenta decides to settle or grow. With Elizabeth, my placenta was in one horn and with Jack it was towards the front of my uterus. This time my placenta is lying on the backside of my uterus -- which I actually prefer because I can feel movement really well, as early as 13 weeks.

Well, I tried to find what I read, but it eludes me at the moment







. As I recall it was written by a physician and he describes how he delivers the baby, has someone (nurse or pediatrician) hold the baby next to the abdomen while he delivers the placenta, and then they transfer both baby and placenta (still attached via umbilical cord) to the warming table, where the baby is examined, suctioned if needed, etc. and once the cord stops pulsing it is then cut. It definitely intrigued me.

However, it does make sense that this may not always be practical or ideal. It's good to know that me or my husband will be able to cut the cord.

Kim, thank you for continuing to remind me to not get overly invested in there being only "one way". I am grateful to have you, and others, along this journey.

Lisa


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Hi Lisa







. I knit, too.







Knitting rules!

Hey there







, yes it does. Amazing sanity benefits


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Lisa, my OB had agreed to do delayed clamping--very much as you just described but she did warn me that it would only be feasable if everything was perfect. As it turned out, everything with the baby was perfect, she was screaming when her head was the only thing out (very cool) but my spinal had not taken so I was feeling everything and my blood pressure shot through the roof, so their only focus was on getting things done quickly.
What I ended up doing with my OB was write down all the things I'd like to happen, then she asked me which ones were most important and we went over all the things that could throw a wrench in the plan. She agreed to all she could to honor my wishes if I agreed that she could change things without me being upset if she felt it would be dangerous to follow our original plans.
I did get; no drape up once the first cut was completed; dh did cut the cord; we kept our placenta; music in the OR from a cd I made; recovered in my room with family and my baby; my dh plus my mother in the OR as support; my arms were not restrained and once she was born my head was placed on a pillow making it easier to cuddle with her.
For sure as OTF said, don't get too attached to a plan, approach it as this is your "ultimate" and be happy with getting things as close to that as you can--but ultimately the only thing that really matters is that baby coming home with you


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisaG*
Kim, thank you for continuing to remind me to not get overly invested in there being only "one way". I am grateful to have you, and others, along this journey.

Lisa

What a wonderfully sweet thing to say. I often think of leaving MDC but don't because of this thread mainly. And mainly my age. I've grown as a mother and a woman and I have definitely abandoned some of my ideals to do things that work better for me and for my kids.

The real key, the one I am stressing to my SIL who is due 10 weeks after me, is that there isn't one way to do things. There are options, you just have to find the right folks and doctor to help you as you advocate for yourself, your pregnancy, and birth.

My goal this summer is to get a Cesarean Goddess site up. I want it to be open to all but I think it would be great to be able to get a lot of info in one place instead of trying to fetch it from here there and yonder and peice meal the info.

I would love to read the article you mentioned above. I definitely haven't come across something from an actual physician and would love to read it.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Shannon thanks for sharing with us your experience. I never though about a pillow for my head. That would definitely make things easier after the birth in the OR. I will add that to my birthplan and talk to my OB about it.

Sorry about your spinal. Ugh. I hate those damn things. My SIL had a successful one but she is now leaning towards an epidural to have better pain management after delivery. She is going to be at the hospital when I have Katie, since she will be delivering there too, and wants to see how well I do. She hasnt had a baby in almost 11 years so she is happy to know she has some different options.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Yeah, it was my doctor who thought of the pillow and it made a huge difference-especially since I'm rather "chesty" :LOL
I was told the only reason I wouldn't be able to have the pillow would be if they were concerned about my breathing.
The thing that was most important to me was having her placed on my chest, I was fine with them checking her over first, afterall she was 3 weeks early but I desparately wanted to have her on my chest-I told my doctor that was the most important thing on my list of wants, so she suggested the pillow and made sure it happened for me--right down to telling the nurses not to swaddle Molly and just to provide extra warmed blankets to cover me and Molly.


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
What a wonderfully sweet thing to say. I often think of leaving MDC but don't because of this thread mainly. And mainly my age. I've grown as a mother and a woman and I have definitely abandoned some of my ideals to do things that work better for me and for my kids.

The real key, the one I am stressing to my SIL who is due 10 weeks after me, is that there isn't one way to do things. There are options, you just have to find the right folks and doctor to help you as you advocate for yourself, your pregnancy, and birth.

My goal this summer is to get a Cesarean Goddess site up. I want it to be open to all but I think it would be great to be able to get a lot of info in one place instead of trying to fetch it from here there and yonder and peice meal the info.

I would love to read the article you mentioned above. I definitely haven't come across something from an actual physician and would love to read it.

Well I have to admit Kim that when we first "met" here, your intensity & passion disturbed me at times. But it also made me look at things I really needed to look at, and sometimes it takes big energy to get me to do that, especially when I get caught up in being "right"







. When I was first coming to terms with the possibility that I'd need a c/s you were the first person I'd ever heard talk about what a healing experience it was for you. It gave me brainlash because until then the only women I thought were ok with their c/s were those who didn't know any better. In my book, you "knew better", and you were still ok with it. Not only ok with it but the joy you experienced from it was amazing to me. How could the antithesis of a peaceful homebirth be a joyful experience? Was it possible that MY birth experience could be joyful and sacred even if it involves hospitals and surgery? I am grateful to be able to answer yes to that.

I'm realizing more and more that birth comes in a variety of packages no matter what route you choose. It is unpredictable by nature. We do the best we can do and I think we do ourselves a disservice to get locked in to only one model being the "ideal". I look forward to seeing your website!

As for the cord clamping info - I found it! http://www.cordclamping.com/dunn72a.pdf It's from 1972, but has some interesting info as well as his protocol.

Lisa


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
What I ended up doing with my OB was write down all the things I'd like to happen, then she asked me which ones were most important and we went over all the things that could throw a wrench in the plan. She agreed to all she could to honor my wishes if I agreed that she could change things without me being upset if she felt it would be dangerous to follow our original plans.
I did get; no drape up once the first cut was completed; dh did cut the cord; we kept our placenta; music in the OR from a cd I made; recovered in my room with family and my baby; my dh plus my mother in the OR as support; my arms were not restrained and once she was born my head was placed on a pillow making it easier to cuddle with her.
For sure as OTF said, don't get too attached to a plan, approach it as this is your "ultimate" and be happy with getting things as close to that as you can--but ultimately the only thing that really matters is that baby coming home with you









Shannon, I was so excited to hear of Molly's arrival. Yay!! She's beautiful! Thanks for sharing what worked for you. Those are great ideas and I'm glad to hear you were able to get many of them, in spite of your spinal not taking. Ugh.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Lisa, I'm looking forward to hearing you announce a nice bfp








Like OTF, I have to admit, I found my c-section to be quite empowering. My doctor played a huge role in making it that way, but that is one advantage to *planning* your c-section, you have the luxery of hand picking a doctor who will work with you for what you want. As you know from the loss boards, getting pregnant and staying pregnant was quite the miracle for me and you see your definition of the "ideal" change as time moves on. In the beginning I wanted the midwife attended home birth, no U/S's, etc. With Molly's pregnancy I completely surrendered to a medicalized pregnancy. I decided that the only thing that would represent a failure was not bringing her home with us. By surrendering to what I couldn't really control I gained control in many other areas. So while I injected myself with heparin and took far too many drugs and had WAY too many U/S's during the pregnancy, I found I acheived the birth I wanted, my babe was healthy and screaming, she settled just as soon as she was placed on my chest, I co-slept with her while in the hospital and now at home. I unfortunately didn't produce any milk for her, but I feel comfortable with lots of skin to skin contact with her and I for one can't even imagine having a deeper bond to my baby. I feel so badly for women who beat themselves up over having a c-section. I still sometimes wish I could have given birth vaginally--but then I stare at Molly for a while and realize that the only thing that really matters is that she's here for me to hold and love.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LisaG*
Well I have to admit Kim that when we first "met" here, your intensity & passion disturbed me at times. But it also made me look at things I really needed to look at, and sometimes it takes big energy to get me to do that, especially when I get caught up in being "right"







. When I was first coming to terms with the possibility that I'd need a c/s you were the first person I'd ever heard talk about what a healing experience it was for you. It gave me brainlash because until then the only women I thought were ok with their c/s were those who didn't know any better. In my book, you "knew better", and you were still ok with it. Not only ok with it but the joy you experienced from it was amazing to me. How could the antithesis of a peaceful homebirth be a joyful experience? Was it possible that MY birth experience could be joyful and sacred even if it involves hospitals and surgery? I am grateful to be able to answer yes to that.

I'm realizing more and more that birth comes in a variety of packages no matter what route you choose. It is unpredictable by nature. We do the best we can do and I think we do ourselves a disservice to get locked in to only one model being the "ideal". I look forward to seeing your website!

As for the cord clamping info - I found it! http://www.cordclamping.com/dunn72a.pdf It's from 1972, but has some interesting info as well as his protocol.

Lisa

Thanks for the link! Also thanks for saying what you did because I know I often come across online as harsh. I know in many of my discussion with you, I would look over them and think, that Lisa must hate me. But my real concern was for you and your future offspring. I also didn't want you to build all your hopes and dreams into one event (birth) that might not turn out as you had dreamed it would be. Having personally experienced that without knowing my condition, it was devestating. I don't want other women to feel guilt or shame over something that they really may not have control over.

I felt raped by my first cesarean and what took place in that OR. I also felt torn down by those in the "natural birthing" community whenever I said I had a csection and why. Even with valid medical reasoning, I felt less then, not good enough, a failure, not motherly enough. I read thoughts of other mothers on blogs, forums and internet groups that place this huge amount of blame on themselves because they ended up in an OR or they blame the "medical establishment". Mostly its a combo of both, and often time that kind of judgement and blame on oneself is not even warranted. I've said it time and time again, not everyone wants to squat in her living room UC or with a midwife and have babies -- that was something I had wanted, it was something I had judged women for not wanting, and the cosmic universe taught me a lesson. Why me? No clue really but I am glad to have learned it, even in a painful way.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Well said Kim, when I decided with my doctor to plan a c-section delivery I was terrified to even tell anyone on my due date thread for fear of being dressed down for not even trying to have a vaginal birth even though it would be against the odds. For me it was very much like the struggle Melixxa is having right now, with planning the c-section I could make it what I wanted/needed it to be. If I tried for a vaginal birth and failed I'd likely end up with a general and an emergency c-section. For me at least, it was much easier to cope with the devil I knew.


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

I thank you all for your replies. It really is a struggle when the personal becomes political, or vice versa. That is to say, my decision about how and where to birth is completely clouded by the issues swarming around homebirth and women's loss of options nowadays - now that hospitals are advocating against VBACs or demanding the kinds of interventions that usually make them unlikely to be successful. I have been such a strong proponent of homebirth and natural childbirth that I feel like a traitor to myself for even considering going the hospital route - even worse: an elective repeat c-section.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I am meeting my new OB this week. He comes highly recommended from the OB (whom I LOVED) who delivered my first baby - she left the practice. In fact, everyone from my doula to my midwife to my therapist to complete strangers sings his praises. I will have a better idea after I can talk to him about options.

All I know is, I toured the hospital where I would be admitted and I can say for a fact: There is no way I could ever VBAC there. I don't know how women do that in such a setting. I am in awe of women who do. Soooo medicalized. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't see any middle way between natural birth at home and surgery. I just know that I cannot labor and deliver in that environment. I know that I tried it once - albeit under bad conditions - and I know it won't happen for me the second time around, either. I just wish I still had my 100% faith in the natural birth process working, which I had the first time. Until we had to transport, it did not occur to me for an instant that the homebirth would not be a homebirth. I laughed at the idea of packing a hospital bag "just in case."

If I do decide for the c-birth, I am wondering: What are my options for making it the way we want? Last time around, my midwife, my doula, my sister and my partner were all there, making certain that my baby was brought to me as soon as I entered Recovery and that he could go to the breast right away. That was the most important thing, I guess. But there are certainly many other, small things I'm not thinking of right now and may not think of later. My partner knew from the get-go that our son was not to leave his sight. When you opt for a c-section, how much leeway do you have in deciding these things?

I know a lot will depend on my OB and what we hammer out together, but I am wondering in general how others of you have been able to make your c-births optimal experiences.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

melixxa-- This is a struggle I'm all too familiar with. I was VBAC with Bryce until 6 days before he was born. I waled in to my OB and said, Dr Buchanan I want a repeat c/b. It was the hardest but somehow easiest decision I have ever made.

I had severe dounts in my mind. NOt of safety but of motives, situations,the possibility of a c/b happening anyway, and a lot of other things. I just went through every concern or wondering I had and wrote down how I Felt.

Might seem like "bad" advice but if youa re really struggling with the decision and are afraid outside influences "vbac" boards and even c/b boards are clouding your judgement. take some time off from them. REalize your fears and tackle them head on. Plan your VBAC if you want and always realize you CAN change your mind. Most OBs aren't going to say no you can't have a repeat.

Bryce made my decision final. I dilated to almost 3 and was effaced a fair bit and 4 days later I was closed up tight. That happened 2x. Bryce went from just about dropped and on my cervix to floating high to the point where the ob was afraid to have my water break for fear of prolapsed cord. Things change so fast.

As for knowing what you do want and don't want, write it down. Think back to your last birth. What was good and what was not so good. Trust me, the women here will give you plenty of ideas


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Melixxa, I wanted to comment on some things you said. Also my Cbirth plan is somewhere in this thread. Take a look at it!









<<I don't know how women do that in such a setting. I am in awe of women who do. Soooo medicalized. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't see any middle way between natural birth at home and surgery. I just know that I cannot labor and deliver in that environment. I know that I tried it once - albeit under bad conditions - and I know it won't happen for me the second time around, either. I just wish I still had my 100% faith in the natural birth process working, which I had the first time.>>

I was wondering if some meditation might would change this for you or some other type of therapy. You say there is no middle ground because of it being medicalized, is that because you would want an all natural birth and think that VBACing in a hospital is contrary to that? Or are you in some way, fearful of VBACing and using the interventions to cope and then that would really go against your beliefs?
When I thought about VBACing I knew I would go to a hospital and do it. I pretty much knew that when the pain got bad I would get an epidural. I have read all about them and have read conflicting medical evidence on the hinderance/slowing down of labor. Also, I knew that by having one in place should a csection be necessary my pain management would already be in place. Besides a few homebirthers, all the others I know who had successful VBACs had them in the hospital with epidurals. Most waited until 4-5 cm to get them and did not have labor augmented with pit. One woman was induced, but her labor was short (4hrs with a short pushing stage) and she was already dilated. They seemed happy with their outcomes and their VBACs.
However if you somehow have doubt that you can birth vaginally in that kind of enviroment, I know that can create a mental block which could just throw a monkey wrench into the whole process. Most the mamas I knew who VBACed were pretty mainstream and easy going about medical intervention in one way or another.

<<<If I do decide for the c-birth, I am wondering: What are my options for making it the way we want? Last time around, my midwife, my doula, my sister and my partner were all there, making certain that my baby was brought to me as soon as I entered Recovery and that he could go to the breast right away. That was the most important thing, I guess. But there are certainly many other, small things I'm not thinking of right now and may not think of later. My partner knew from the get-go that our son was not to leave his sight. When you opt for a c-section, how much leeway do you have in deciding these things?>>>

I had a lot of leeway with my last csection and it appears I will get the same this time around (even more so). I've had a lot of leeway with this pregnancy, but its my third and because I am having a planned csection well before my due date, my doctor is very accomadating. Besides my ultrasounds, I've not had a lot of medical intervention during my pregnancy or testing. (unlike my last) I am not even doing the glucose test.

I am one of those people who is all in favor of the scheduled csection before labor begins. I believe it is safer (research tells me this) and I believe it is emotionally better for mothers. Afer having an unplanned, emergency csection I was relieved to have had a major role in picking the day, doctors involved, nursing care, and obtaining the things I wanted for the birth. Every request I had was met. Also, because of my "control" issues, I also did not have any drugs in my IV that caused mental confusion, sleepiness, etc. No mind altering drugs. I also requested Zofran over phenegran for nausea if it was needed. I also held my baby on the table and recovered in a L&D room. We were seperated maybe 15minutes total. The time went by quickly as I was running my mouth. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have. if the birthing plan doesnt answer it for you or its not elsewhere on this thread.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I agree with OTF on c/b before labor starts. Actually, I think if I would have gone into labor I would have tried VBAC. So, I'm kinda glad it didn't :LOL

So, here i sit. Dh had a vasectomy 2 weeks ago. We have ONE moment of bad planning 5 days before his snip job and....af is late. I'm giving myself another 3 or 4 days before I officially freak out!


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Megan--









I've been thinking about my next birth. I had an emergency c-section with BooBah, which was a complete shock to me. Still, I found it to be a very healing experience. My son was born after a horrific labor, it was very traumatic for me despite the fact that it was a vaginal delivery. I had a much easier time with the c-section, a *much* shorter recovery and a much more relaxed post-birth experience.

So I really would like to have a VBAC, if the chances are good that it will succeed. I can only imagine that a section after labor began would be really depressing for me, so I'd really like to know one way or the other going in. I dunno yet. Anyway, my next birth is probably a long way off so I guess it's not a real big issue right now.


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Thanks for the link! Also thanks for saying what you did because I know I often come across online as harsh. I know in many of my discussion with you, I would look over them and think, that Lisa must hate me. But my real concern was for you and your future offspring. I also didn't want you to build all your hopes and dreams into one event (birth) that might not turn out as you had dreamed it would be. Having personally experienced that without knowing my condition, it was devestating. I don't want other women to feel guilt or shame over something that they really may not have control over.

Oh no, I never hated you but I did have moments of stubborness and determination to prove you wrong







. What I found most helpful and supportive was the recognition that you had been where I am/was. You wanted a homebirth as badly as I did. So it was easier to hear you because you were talking from experience. Not only that, but we had similar uterus challenges. So yes, sometimes you're harsh and sometimes you grated on my nerves, but I also know that I need to listen to what you have to say. I may not agree with everything, but you have been and are a wonderful teacher to me.

It's amazing to me how much I had built around having this "perfect" home birth. I still struggle with it, but it's so much easier than it was. I'm a lot more trusting in the fact that for some reason this is my path and I can fight it or I can surrender to it and accept that growth that comes from it.

Melixxa, I can related to a lot of what you've said. I am grieved by the politics of birth. It bothers me that birth has become so medicalized and so far from how I believe we were designed to give birth. It bothers me that by having a c/s I am tipping the scales. BUT we have c/s because sometimes they're necessary. And I can still be an advocate for natural birth and home birth and women tuning in to what THEIR best choice is, which might be a variety of things including a c/s. I too wonder how women can manage to have a vaginal birth in the hospital. And yet they do. I don't know if I could vaginally birth laboring on my back in a bed, with nurses in and out, and monitors hooked up, etc., etc. I don't know what choice I'd make in your shoes, and it doesn't much matter. I think OTF had some good suggestions for writing things down and helping yourself get as clear as possible in your decision making.

Well, work calls. Shannon - I too look forward to the BFP









Lisa


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

OTF - I'd love to see the Cesarean Goddess website become reality! I know when I was preparing for my c-s (scheduled c-s for breech presentation, for those who don't already know my story) I found the lack of information online to be really frustrating. There are basically two types of information to be found when you google for cesarean section - 1) how to avoid a c-section and 2) how to have a VBAC. What I really needed was "So you have to have a c-section - here's how to make it as good a birth as possible." Thank goodness I found this thread on Mothering, since you all helped me find that path.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Sign me up for a CG website too









So, af is late....still.... I'm waiting....


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## LisaG (Feb 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammylc*
What I really needed was "So you have to have a c-section - here's how to make it as good a birth as possible." Thank goodness I found this thread on Mothering, since you all helped me find that path.

I particularly like these links for that very reason:

Planning a Good Cesarean
Planning Your Cesarean

Lisa


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

so Megan, any word yet from AF??


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
so Megan, any word yet from AF??


DO you see my sig







:









I'm so freaking nervous...like completely freaked out at the idea. And now.....queasy. It started about 2 hours ago....


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh Megan, I'm sorry







, she's visiting with me right now, I'll send her on over when she's done with me--of course I'm a little worried myself, all I really had was one day with VERY light bleeding--I was kinda expecting a very heavy period for my first one after pregnancy


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

My second af after pg was WAY worse than the first...be careful what you wish for :LOL


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
My second af after pg was WAY worse than the first...be careful what you wish for :LOL

I'm having my second right now, and this is the most painful, heaviest period I've ever had in my life, bar none. It was also very late, and makes me wonder if I didn't have a very early miscarriage; I've never had such severe lower back pain with a period. Of course, it could just be that my uterus is in a different position now...









Megan,







It'll be okay, no matter what happens. We're here for you.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

You know when you say something and then life just proves you wrong??? I signed off the computer and stood up and blood suddenly gushed everywhere-I've just soaked 2 pads in 2 hours. This is insane! Once again, the universe kicks but.

Megan, may you get what you wish for--whatever that may be, a bfp or a visit from the old witch.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I had that the first 5 or 6 afs. NOw I'm pretty much like I was p[re-kids.

I want the hag...give me the hag


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I will pack her bags and send her out ASAP--with this sudden gushing I can't wait to see her go!


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I will pack her bags and send her out ASAP--with this sudden gushing I can't wait to see her go!









It may be tmi, but I seriously floated out of bed this morning.







My poor niece was horrified, she thought I was dying. :LOL


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

I'm terrified of my next AF. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I got an IUD. Had to reschedule my appointment a bunch of times, so it just got inserted yesterday. I was worried about it because DS was a planned c-section and I didn't even labor, so I had a virgin cervix, but the nurse practitioner didn't have any trouble at all. The only part that really hurt was when she clamped the stabilizer on my cervix - and that hurt like a you know what. I've been a little crampy since then, but just a little bit.

So anyway, like I was saying, terrified of AF, since IUDs can make them heaver and more painful, and here you're all saying that my second post partum flow is going to be a bear anyway! I had a couple of days of very light bleeding last month, and of course no idea when to expect AF to come.

But no more unplanned pregnancies for me, so that's a good thing!


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

my periods are WAY more painful, but much lighter in flow for some reason! i think i must have a big web of adhesions, just going on how everything feels when i bend this way or that, when i get up from sitting, when i carry Willow around, and how my cramps feel. it's definitely worse on the right side.

re: the bonding issues i was worried about: no more worries!







it was so cool, one morning Willow looked at me differently and then she just melted up against me and stayed like that for a long time. and has been all melty and soft and huggable ever since!







i was doing the same things every day, so i have no idea what changed it for her. but i am SO glad for both of us, she is really blossoming now! lots of smiling and laughing. she also puts her arms out to me to pick her up, i LOVE that









re: the lack of breastfeeding ... it was because of my medications, actually she was latching on pretty well and i had a lot of milk. i still leak milk sometimes, it's never truly stopped! i nursed her for comfort on and off whenever the time had passed (16 hours) after i took my meds when they would be least harmful to her, she started fighting me more and more. i pumped and gave her EBM after that, until i had to go on another med that has more than a 24-hour half-life. i HATE that the meds stop us from nursing, but without the meds i can't even pick her up, so it's an obvious choice. just a painful choice.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh Meli, I'm so happy to hear that







How great is that, I was so sad for you when you wrote about not feeling bonded.








What meds are on if you don't mind me asking--I have RA so my meds were likely to pose a problem too-but alas, I produced not a drop.

STill gushing here. Oh and I got a call today regarding an appt with an internist, my OB sent in the referral as urgent because of the pain I'm having--Aug 12, yeah, I'll just live with the pain till then


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

It's funny to hear all of you talk about AF being heavier, because I have had three visits from her since DD was born, and all three times I had less cramps and a lighter flow than before DD. I did have a HORRENDOUS headache and a lot of crankiness, but I think that's just because I have more stress in my life now than I did before DD.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Well, I'm probably having a miscarriage as opposed to a very very heavy period...so maybe there's nothing to worry about after all. I passed a huge clot very late last night/early this morning and after that the bleeding slowed considerably. Now it's like a normal heavy period instead of a huge flood.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Rynna.
It sucks, whether you were trying or not.







, get lots to drink and eat some iron rich foods for the next week or so.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Hi I had c-births with both of my children. With my son Elijah I developed severe pre-eclampsia so he was born by c-birth. He was 6 week early and spent a week in an NICU an hour away from me. With my daughter I planned a home VBAC. After 22 hours of labour at home we transferred due to tons of meconium in the waters. Her heart rate dropped to mid 80s and she was born by emergency c-birth 26.5 hours after my labour started. We are planning to starrt ttc in the summer and after a lot of research and soul searching I've decided that I will plan another c-birth if I am lucky enough to conceive again. I look forward to getting to know everyone. I want a place where I can feel proud and excited about a c-birth, not ashamed and belittled. It is very hard to be on these boards when you are having a c-birth or have had one.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Shawna, welcome and good luck with TTC!! Not that I have anything to compare it with but I certainly don't regret my planned c-section. I feel I had a gentler birth than many vaginal births, I still was able to hold my dd right away and we were never separated.
How is your adoption quest going??


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## caitlinsmom (Jun 10, 2004)

I havent come to this thread before but thought I would now. I had a c-section 2 years ago. DD had "bad" heart tones and after only 3 hours of monitering I was taken in for an emergency section. I had no problem with this at the time but later as I started to research things I found out that her heart tones were never bad, just on the low end of the normal scale. I was very angry about this.

So when I got pregnant last July I planned for a VBAC. After searching for an OB (none would let me VBAC) I found the most amazing midwife. I saw her through my entire pregnancy...until I was 36 weeks. That is when we moved to an entirley different state. Here I was unable to find a midwife I could afford, most Drs wouldnt accept me as a transfer paitent due to how far along I was. I managed to find a Dr and due to his insurance I was told that I had to have another C-section. I thought of everything and tried to induce myself so that I could labor at home and avoid a section. No such luck. On March 17th I had my second c-section.

I am very upset about this. I want to scream. If I think about it I start to tear up or cry all together. No one understands why I am so upset. I am pissed that some dumb a** man can tell me what I have to do to myself and my child becuase he doesnt want to be held liable. I am pissed that all of the descion was taken out of my hands. I am pissed that no one would listen to me. I am pissed that my body was not respected and its natural abilities were not respected. I am pissed that a small statistic is what stopped me from acheiving the one thing that makes me a woman. I am pissed.

I dont want anymore kids now. I refuse to be cut open again for no reason.


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

Oh, Kim








I understand your pissy feelings. I really do.

Hi, all. I've been reading along debating whether to post. Kim talked me into it. I am almost 12 pp. I was all set to have a bradley-inspired birth at a birthing center. I labored there for many hours, 4 of those spent pushing. DS never passed by my cervix. I had a "lip" that he MW tried to push out of the way, but apparently it didnt' work cuz when we got to the hospital the doctor said I was only 9 cm (he was an ass, and you could tell by his attitude that he didn't respect mw care or birth center moms). well, I have news for him: my body thought I was ready--it was pushing with all it's might even without me. I got an epidural in the hopes that if I stopped pushing my cervix would relax and redilated, but it was no good and 6-7 hours later I had a c-section. I feel robbed. betrayed. violated. I still do to this day. DS is fine (but we had many problems bfing) and the surgeon apparently did a good job (we'll see if and when I vbac). But for example I was watching steel magnolias the other day and m'lynn talks about how she was there when shelby was born and there when she died, and all I could think was that, yeah, I was there, but I couldn't see it, and I barely got to see him there, and I really don't remember the first time I held him. that really hurts.

afterwards the doc kept saying it was "size and position" but ds had a relatively small head and he wasn't even 8 pounds (and he was tall to boot). He had his head cocked slightly to the side and back, and was born with such a conehead and eventually scabbed over where his head was pressing against my cervix. But my friend delivered her son whose head was positioned similarly. So why me? I keep asking what I, what dh, what my mw could have done differently to prevent this. i know this thread is not meant to be a place to question the necessity of c/s but if anyone has thoughts about my case, I welcome your pms.

thanks for being here, ya'll


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh Kim





















I'm so sorry you were unable to have the birth you wanted. I'm sorry you were made to feel so violated emotionally and physically. I have to be honest, when I read that you felt robbed of the one thing that makes you a woman. I understand where you're coming from-breast feeding was something I desparately wanted to do, but I was unable, it hurt me to the very core of my being. There are so very many things that make you a woman and even more things that make you a mom. You created 2 beautiful kids. Your body nourished them, kept them alive, allowed them to thrive. They felt your intense love for them before they even felt your lips on their forehead. Twice you have shared with them the ability to "know they're in there" before anyone else could feel or see them move. Is there any more special time in pregnancy than that first time you feel a kick??
Had you wanted more than 2 kids before you ended up with this second c-section? If you did, I encourage you to try to make that dream come true. Even if you end up having another c-section, the outcome is so very much less traumatic when you are able to plan it out first, when you can shop for a doctor who support your goals for the perfect birth, even if in inperfect surroundings. Kim (OTF) has posted on this thread her birth plan for her upcoming c-section. I worked with my doctor to have a wonderful birth experience, I have NO regrets whatsoever (well, I regret that the spinal never took!) Your caregiver has the ability to make or break the experience. My OB encouraged me to see it as giving birth, in the weeks leading up to my surgery she and I spent literally hours figuring out what we could do and what we couldn't do, how to make the OR feel like a safe and welcoming environment--so we had music that I chose, dh wore the cologne he wore on our first date--the scent just makes me feel like someone is hugging me--I had a pillow under my head that we sprinkled some lavender essential oil on--my arms were not tied down--my OB gave me a complete step by step comentary--once the initial cut was made, my drape was completely lowered, allowing me to see everything (the pillow was GREAT for this) My dh had the camera in the OR and started snapping pics the second my doctor said, here's her head, she's coming right now (if you click on Molly's site, you will see pics where only her head is out) The nurses checked her very quickly under the warmer (like 10 seconds) and then did the rest of the checks with her on my chest, she wasn't cleaned up and weighed until they were closing me. There are SO MANY things that can be done to make for an emotionally succesful c-section.

At the end of the day, it's important to think about the truth--no man will ever feel the first kick, no man will ever have that pregnancy connection where you just sit there concentrating on that wee being inside you and most importantly--no man will every sport a c-section scar. Necessary or not, that scar helped bring your children into the world, I believe it was Kim (OTF) who said she wears her scar as a badge of honor, that statement helped me come to terms with any regrets I had about Molly's entry into the world.
Please take care, and PLEASE keep talking about it.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Shannon ... that was a great post.

Kim... I understand your feelings, too. Many of us have had awful c/s experiences with providers who really thought they knew better and put us, at our most vulnerable moments, into situations where we felt we had no choice. It is hard to overcome and let go of the anger. It is hard not to feel violated and taken advantage of. It is just plain hard. But we all understand your feelings. And talking about it helps enormously, especially with a bunch of women who won't say to you "well at least you and the baby are here and healthy" as if the emotional aspects of the experience are meaningless. We live in a world where drs are viewed as gods. They aren't. They are human and fallable and also subjected to some obscence pressures from forces beyond their control (I'm thinking med mal insurance carriers who forbid many drs from attending VBACs by making the insurance totally cost prohibitive). It isn't an excuse for treating you like you don't matter, but it is a reality, unfortunately. But I think one of the best things we all can do is try to put our stories out there and try to fight the system that feeds us misinformation.

I'm not sure any of that made sense, but it reminds of the article I just read in one of our local papers. The article talked about NJ (where I live) having the the highest c/s rate in the US in 2003 -- the year ds was born -- 33.1%. The hospital I used? The rate was 41%. The hospital I initially thought I'd use for the next baby -- the rate is 36%. I'm seriously considering going very far out of my way to a hospital with a much lower rate (i.e., 26% or 22%) since an HBAC isn't a possibility. And actually, my mom lives very near one of these 2 lower rate hospitals so dh and ds would have a local place to stay.

But I digress ... the article talked about how the med mal crisis is making it harder and harder for women in NJ to find providers willing to attend VBACs, willing to really see a normal pg through l&d even when there are a few minor hiccups (baby's rate drops for 2 seconds -- must be fetal distress, call the OR), and willing to really fight for patients. The article talks about how primary and subsequant c/s are just habit -- a habit that has been changed before (in the 1980s) and needs to be addressed again. That's where we come in. We need to use our experiences to demonstrate that it is obsurd that there are so many c/s and obsurd that drs and ins carriers are so afraid of VBAC. Here's an interesting quote:

Quote:

[T]he risk of uterine rupture is considerably less than the risk of respiratory distress to infants as a result of scheduled Caesareans.
Anyway ... I'm babbling and ds is waking from his nap. I'll try to find a link to the article online and post it. (I don't think this particular paper has a website, though.) In all honesty, it is one of the better "mainstream" articles I've seen in a LONG time.








to all who need them.


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## caitlinsmom (Jun 10, 2004)

Thank you for your replies. i would have screamed if someone said "at least baby is here and healthy"!









Stephanie-you made me cry. I have told myself most of those things and I hear them except for the tiny negative part that totally dwells on the situation. but thank you for saying them again.

After dd was born I would walk around and touch my scar and think it was beautiful. afterall that was my link to dd. After learning so much this past year I find it harder to find the beauty, although I still touch ut knowing it is where my babes came from.

I am studying to be a midwife, doula, and child birth educator. we were going to put my schooling off for a little while but this has made it our top prioruty. I want to be able to help educate those who might blindly follow a dr into an unnessacery section. maybe through that i can find some peace with it.

thanks for listening


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Can I just say that I so did NOT miss having my period for 20 minths!!! As you all predicted, now that AF is back she's here with a vengeance. My IUD insertion last Wednesday was followed by a few days of light spotting, leading directly into Flo's arrival on Monday. The beginning of the week was pretty normal with thick dark blood and pretty regular cramps. Yesterday morning I noticed the blood had gotten lighter and thinner, which is usually a sign for me that things are coming to an end. Not this time! I am literally gushing. I guess I've been lucky in my life up until now, but for the first I can understand why women would use tampons - I've never had enough flow before for them to be comfortable.

I don't know whether to blame the IUD, being postpartum, or some combination thereof, but blech! And wouldn't you know, I have some "activities" planned today, and I'm just feeling sooo not sexy...

Okay, I'm sure that was TMI for you all. Please carry on.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Hi All, I cannot remember if I've replied to this thread before... But, I'd like to be a part of it now anyway. okay?

My ds was "born" via csection 2 years ago. a preemie too. I have suffered greatly due to the csection. on an emotional level only... as I healed in like a week.

I just bought the book "the silent knife".... and after just 60 pages I can feel the healing start!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Hi all!

I am back from our family vacation. And happy to be at home, sleeping in my own bed and eating my own food instead of dining out each night.

Welcome newcomers to our thread. I am going to start a new one on Monday, so be looking for it!

Mama Rana -- while I can sympathize with your loss of vaginal birth, I think it is probable that positioning was a factor in why your baby was not delivered vaginally. I think I would be more pissed with the midwife than the doctor who did it. Surely she felt that your baby was in a posterior or like position and if not, I would question her skills as a midwife. There are many positions in labor to help babies move into the right position at birth, as I have seen Pam discuss them many times on these boards. Your baby for whatever was in that position, refused to move into a proper position, and honestly you may not know why.

Also I wanted to touch on something, it was something I thought about this week while on vacation. I read so many stories about home birth transfers or birthcenter transfers to hospitals, where then the mothers (or their original providers) blame the doctor for their csections. While I think its one thing to have a bedside manner that accompanies compassion and grace, I also have begin to look at how these doctors must feel - being presented with a patient they have never seen, in a distressful or even an emergency situaiton, that has gone against mainstream medicine. Having members of my family in the medical field I now begin to understand that liability is a big threat to their careers and their own personal lives.

For Catilins Mommy, I want to say that I hope you accomplish your goals as a birth attendant but please keep in mind, as I have come across this in the natural family community and natural childbirth community, that judgement and harshness of those who choose or are okay with their csections is not a good thing. I believe it can be a good thing and is. I wasn't okay with my first csection, however I do acknowledge the choices I made prior to my first csection made my experience worse. I wasn't ignorant. In fact I was informed and thought a csection was next to horrible death. It is one reason I never recommend the Silent Knife. I read it before having a csection, and not only did it exagerate a great deal and give an interpretation of certain studies that I now feel are inaccurate (and outdated now), it caused me to mistrust my doctor but also myself. I've had a wonderful cesarean experience and I am planning a third. My healing didn't came from that experience but it also came from acknowledging my own judgement and choices when it came to birth.

I think its wonderful to take our anger and do something with it that is good for women (and children), but I think we need to keep in mind that our passion can get misdirected and it can hurt people. Sometime our own personal truths, are not anothers. Doctors are trained to manage birth and to do surgeries - if you follow that line of thinking then you make the choice to do so and must live by those choices, there are also competent OBs that will work with their patients to accomplish goals and to work cooperatively to get the births we want. Unfortunately I am finding that more and more homebirtheres are not getting adequate backup that support their choices nor work cooperatively with them should they get transferred to hospitals. I also find that midwives, are not preparing their clients in case of transfers, what they should expect and what their options may be should they have to have surgical births. Its a gap that really needs to be bridged.


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Mama Rana -- while I can sympathize with your loss of vaginal birth, I think it is probable that positioning was a factor in why your baby was not delivered vaginally. I think I would be more pissed with the midwife than the doctor who did it. Surely she felt that your baby was in a posterior or like position and if not, I would question her skills as a midwife. There are many positions in labor to help babies move into the right position at birth, as I have seen Pam discuss them many times on these boards. Your baby for whatever was in that position, refused to move into a proper position, and honestly you may not know why.

Also I wanted to touch on something, it was something I thought about this week while on vacation. I read so many stories about home birth transfers or birthcenter transfers to hospitals, where then the mothers (or their original providers) blame the doctor for their csections. While I think its one thing to have a bedside manner that accompanies compassion and grace, I also have begin to look at how these doctors must feel - being presented with a patient they have never seen, in a distressful or even an emergency situaiton, that has gone against mainstream medicine. Having members of my family in the medical field I now begin to understand that liability is a big threat to their careers and their own personal lives.

I actually do/did have issues with this particular mw. the bc was a group of 4, and the one who ended up attending me was the youngest/least experienced, and seemed a bit... i don't know, i just always hoped it wouldn't be her on call when i went into labor. as for knowing the presentation, i'm not a mw, obviously, but the way i understood it was that because of the swelling on his head it was masking the fontanel so she couldn't get a good read on his position. she did have me change position quite a bit.







you're right i will never know. i sometimes wish i had kicked everyone out for a few minutes so i could find my focus better. my energy was ebbing but i could have pushed longer if it would have made a diff.

as for the dr. bedside manner, it may well be stressful for him from a liability standpoint, but this was their back-up doc. you'd think he would have known what he was getting into, been "used" to it, and have more respect for mw, etc. i dunno, he just really bugged me.

thanks for your thoughts.


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## srmina (Sep 10, 2004)

Hey Everybody...

I've been MIA for quite awhile. I just had my second c-section...way better than the first. I was up and walking within 8 hours! No pain meds again, just the occasional ibuprofen. I can't tell you how much better a planned c/s is compared to my crash one under general. Baby came out perfect this time!

I have a few questions. I seem to have some lumpy painful blobs of scar tissue, particularly on the left side above the incision. Has anyone else experienced this? Never had this problem with my first one. Although I only have mild pain, it seems to be continuing much longer than the last time. I am four weeks out now. I see my mw next week...

Any suggestions on how to improve the scar tissue and pain?


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srmina*
Hey Everybody...

I've been MIA for quite awhile. I just had my second c-section...way better than the first. I was up and walking within 8 hours! No pain meds again, just the occasional ibuprofen. I can't tell you how much better a planned c/s is compared to my crash one under general. Baby came out perfect this time!

I have a few questions. I seem to have some lumpy painful blobs of scar tissue, particularly on the left side above the incision. Has anyone else experienced this? Never had this problem with my first one. Although I only have mild pain, it seems to be continuing much longer than the last time. I am four weeks out now. I see my mw next week...

Any suggestions on how to improve the scar tissue and pain?

Are you perhaps feeling your stitches? Mine were on the inside (I had stitches on my uterus and under my skin, and super glue on the outside) and I could feel them, like little lumps under my skin for a while.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I had an OB appointment today. I am 27 weeks. I go back in three weeks. I gained 2lbs but would like to know where. I have been walking and eating really well and look smaller than I did 20 weeks ago. Still two lbs for the entire pregnancy thus far is not bad.

"Katie" is breech. Her head is in the right quadrant of the uterus, her butt down and her legs moving about in the bottom of the left horn. This is exactly how I carried my daughter. I doubt she will be able to flip around much more due to her compromised quarters. I actually prefer her to be breech. If she remains this way my csection will be around the 37th week mark vs the 38th due to risk of cord injuries. I predict she is going to be smaller than Jack (weighing 7lbs 12oz at 38 weeks). She actually measures smaller. I told Jeff that I am guessing she will weigh between 6 and a half and 7lbs.

My 4D ultrasound is scheduled for April 13th. We are getting two sequences burned to CD and hope I can load it to a website for your viewing enjoyment. LOL

I talked with my OB about getting a tubal. I go back and forth on it. I am really unsure. After talking with me today she doesnt think I am a good candidate and says I really need to be sure before doing it. She said if down the road if I got pregnant again she would be willing to deliver another baby by csection. We talked about the Mirena IUD. My husband doesnt think I will do and said he will go get snipped. I really dont want him to get snipped either. He says NO MORE. I really dont want any more children, but I keep thinking "what if" (like we win the lotto... LOL) So some decisions to be made for sure..


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

Hi, I have not posted here in about a month, but we have been busy







. My last post was about a birth plan and thanks to all who responded. I did make one up and used it to talk to my doctor.

Lillian Mary was born on March 5 at 8:32 AM. She weighed 6lb 8 oz and was 18 inch long.

Just FYI - this was my 3rd section (1st was failed induction/malpresentation, 2nd was pre-e). I was having all the symptoms of pre-e, and had a non-responsive NST, so we made the decision to deliver at 36 weeks. This was Friday afternoon, and doc gave me the option of going home or staying in the hospital over night (we live 1.5 hours away). I chose to go home and spend 1 last night with my 2 girls. We went out to dinner and had a relaxing night. Sat we got up early and dropped the girls off at MIL's house and were at the hospital at 6:15. I got checked in and hooked up to the IV by 7 and found out that my 2 favorite nurses were on delivery duty







(I had been having NST for 6 weeks, so knew the staff well).

I walked into the delivery room at 8:08 and got my spinal. It only took effect on the left side of my body, so they rolled me side to side to get it evenly distributed, but this also caused it to go really high in my chest, which made me feel like my chest was being sat on and hard to breath. The awesome anthestiologist talked me threw it and said after the baby was out it would be better and then she could give me something to help it. Dh in the room by then and they were cutting. We had asked to video it, which everyone thought was weird, but cool! Dh was standing by my head and a lot of the video is of the Dr.'s elbow. Lillian was breech and they grabbed her butt and pulled her legs out and she peed all over the Dr. They pulled her the rest of the way out at 8:32 (only 24 min since I walked in). My second section, I had tons of scar tissue and it took just over 45 min to get the baby out. The Dr cut much lower this time to avoid that (same Dr).

They took the baby to the warmer off to the side, but were I could still see. Dh went and held her as they wiped her off and brought her to me. I held her for a few min, then they (dh and nurse) took her down the hall to the nursery to weigh her and wait for me.

Dr finished sewing my up, while having a great conversation with me and anthestioligist and I went to recovery. (Because it was Sat morning, there is only one recovery room nurse, I had to recover in the recovery room and not my LDRP room). My temp was really low (~92, so I was wrapped in warm blankets which was really nice!). They don't know why it dropped (probably shock, but I felt fine), but it took about 24 hours for it to be normal. After a while ( 30min??) Dh came in and said baby was fine and told me her stats. He was headed back to the baby when one of the L&D nurses came and got him because baby was having a hard time breathing and they were going to put her on oxygen and wanted to give him the option of holding her. She was taking 120-160 breaths per min and her oxygen level was in the 40s (normal is 60-80 bpm and 100% oxygen). If she was on oxygen, her bpm stayed high, but her oxygen would come up to 80%. They put her in an oxygen tent and called our FP doc. FP had just gone back to her office, because she had been at the delivery. She wanted X-rays, while they were waiting for the results, so came to see me in recovery and talk to me. This was very reassuring, and I really appreciated it! The X-rays showed that her lungs could not expand because her stomach was full of fluid. They drained 28 oz of fluid from her stomach and she immediately started breathing easier, but still very fast (120 bpm) and would de-stat if her oxygen was turned down. They started an IV to give her some fluids hoping that would help. This is about 10:00 and I came back to my room. The nurses brought me pictures of her







and dh was back and forth between baby and I. Every 2 hours they would try and turn down the Oxygen level, she would immediately start having problems again and they would have to turn it back up. The Dr said it often takes 24 hours for a baby to recover and breathe normal. They nurses came in every little while to check on me and give me an update. At 3:00 they said they turned down the oxygen and she was doing well, so they would continue to slowly wean her off. At about 4:30 they said she was off, but they wanted her in the nursery for 1 hour on room air, they I could have her! Just after 5:00, they brought her to me!! I was so happy just to hold her (and all her cords). They left us alone for a long time, which was really nice. We called our parents and dds and everyone came to meet her at about 8:00.

We went home on Monday afternoon (I hate the hospital and my Dr know and respects that) and are doing well.

Lillian is a very happy easy baby!

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jessmc...g727/my_photos


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Big Congrats Jess and welcome to little miss Lillian, off to look at the pics now!


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Congrats, Jess! She's beautiful!!!







I have to be so careful ... I'm in such newborn longing right now ...


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

What a great story









DOn't you love those conversations with the ob and everyone. My operating room was awesome. I can remember the OB talking about gtoing to Africa and delivering babies and such. It was an awesome experience. Bryce was also on O2 for 30 hours. He had the same issue. I was able to bf first because he didn't show signs of trouble for the first 2 hours. Then the nurse noticed his panting and caught it









Anyway, congrats! I'm glad it went well.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Jess,

Thanks for sharing your story with us!
I also like conversation in the OR. At my last csection they joked about TV commercials. LOL

Congrats on the birth of your baby!!!!


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Jess,

Thanks for sharing your story with us!
I also like conversation in the OR. At my last csection they joked about TV commercials. LOL

Congrats on the birth of your baby!!!!









:LOL at mine, the ob joked that he wasn't a real doctor, but he had stayed at a holiday inn express the night before. :LOL i said that's not funny, but it was hard to take me seriously because i was laughing. :LOL

jess, congrats


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

We talked hockey, the OB assisting my OB is big into hockey and I play too, he was joking that it was because I was a goalie that I was surviving my c-section without a working spinal







Then my OB told the story of when my hockey friends (2 very butch lesbians) walked into my room while I was in hospital for hyperemisis--they didn't realize my OB was standing beside my bed-the curtain covered her and they weren't all the way in yet--they walked in and announced loudly "What have I told you?? There is NO GOOD that can come from sex with a man!!" My ob burst out laughing and my friends were very embarassed


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## FitMOmmyOf2 (Apr 3, 2005)

Hello everybody!









My name is Val, I'm a newbie here to the Mothering boards and would like to introduce myself a little bit.
I'm SAHM to a 3 year old girl, Emily, and currently 26 wks pregnant with our 2nd child, a little baby boy, Mason.

Emily was born via cesarean at 38 wks after being induced due to the reason, that my ob/gyn thought DD would have a big head -which she didn't 35 cm- and that DD would be very big in general, 21" and 7,7 lbs...








-That all happened in Portugal where we're stationed at that time (DH is in the US Navy) and the Portuguese babies are mostly much smaller -just as they are when they're grown ups..
Aside from that I suffered from severe sciatica for the last 6 weeks b4 I got induced so I was ok with it just for the reason that I wanted to finally have our child and also feel better again!

After arriving at the hospital in the early morning and nothing happened for a day -other than getting slight contractions and feeling terribly sick, my ob/gyn told me that my cervix would be still very firm and closed and probably nothing would change for long time.. So she asked me if I'd like to have Emily delivered by c-section, which I agreed as I honestly only wanted it to be over and holding my little girl finally!
I got the epidural within the next 10 mins after I agreed and shortly after that Emily was born.
DH wasn't allowed to be with me, so he waited next door where he could hold Emily after the examinations. I only got to hold her for the first time after I was stitched up and rolled into my room again; that was about 1 hr. later.

I was still shaking extremely and had on one arm the IV still in, the other one was still having the blood-measure thing around, and the nurses put me on the side to BF Emily. She wouldn't latch on properly, the nurses would grab my breast fairly rude and I found the whole situation very frustrating... FRom then on it only went down, the BF didn't work at all, the next day Emily would be very fussy and cry, so at the end I called for a bottle w/formula as I thought that she'd be starving!.. (Back then I had no support nor real knowledge about BF and it's possible problems..







)
2 months later I gave up BF completely..









Now that I'm pregnant again, I already know that I'll have another c-section ( I can't have a VBAC, which has a lot to do with the circumstances here by the military health care providers etc. -long story..) which I've been very disappointed about at first since I always kinda felt as if I already 'failed' in not having a VB and then also in 'failing' with BF..









By now I've made 'peace' with myself and accepted the fact that it'll be a cesarean and try to see some positive sides of it, like for ex. scheduling the delivery 1-2 weeks b4 EDD!









At first when I got pregnant again I firmly believed that I'd FF and not even try one day for BF! (Deep inside I felt hurt and very emotional about the whole issue and resented everything that had to do with BF!..) But over the time I thought more and more about it and realized that my little baby boy deserves the same chance and benefits his sister had and initially thought I'd only BF for the first weeks, so he'd get the colostrum etc. Well, by now I've changed my mind completely and am determined to BF sucessfully for as long as DS wants to!









Honestly my biggest concern is the c-section and the question how it'll go with the BF. I know the hospital is very baby friendly and seems to be very pro BF, so that should be a big help already.

I've set up a birth plan in which I'm making clear that I plan on BFing and that I don't wish Mason to get any pacifiers nor bottles w/water or sugar water. Also I wrote down that I wish to hold Mason as soon as possible after delivery etc.I guess I'm just still nervous since I had such a negative experience with Emily...

I'm looking forward to read more or your stories! -So far I've to admit I only read a few...
Congrats to all of you fresh moms!!!









Have a nice day!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I wish I'd found this thread sooner!

I'm about 26 weeks along in my 6th pregnancy. I've had several years of difficulty conceiving, three miscarriages and two c-sections (one emergency, one scheduled slightly ahead - both for breech babies). The doctors are recommending another section this time, because I've already had two. But, I've never really come to terms with my first section (in 1993!!), let alone my second, so I'm pushing for a VBAC.

When I was pregnant with my miracle baby girl in 2003, everything looked good, and the OB expected me to be able to VBAC. But, at my last regular checkup, her head had moved, and it turned out that she had moved into a breech (feet down) position, so I was scheduled for a section two days later. A lot of people tell me that's easier than an emergency procedure, but I found it more difficult in many ways. It also took me by surprise because I wasn't really expecting it to happen again. I knew there was a possibility that labour wouldn't proceed well, but I thought I'd at least labour again.

I've done quite a bit of research this time, and my OB is at least willing to consider an attempt at VBA2C. I'm not comfortable switching care providers this far along, and I had originally decided to accept the ruling that his had to be a section. I think I'll be able to deal with it better knowing that I've at least tried my best, instead of feeling like a cog in the medical machine.

One thing I'm going to try to fight for, though - the policy at my hospital is to send you to the post-op recovery room after the section. I thought I was going to go completely out of my mind lying in bed, watching my blood pressure/hearrate monitor, and being asked every ten minutes if I could wiggle my toes. All I wanted was to see my husband and hold my precious little baby. Instead, I just watched my monitor and listened to other people coming out of general anaesthetics...not a really comforting post-partum environment! This time, I want my baby with me!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caitlinsmom*
Thank you for your replies. i would have screamed if someone said "at least baby is here and healthy"!









Did nobody say it to you? It seemed as though everyone dismissed my feelings about my sections with "at least the baby's healthy - that's what really counts". What - I don't count? I'm not an incubator!

But, people just don't understand and/or think about what they're saying. I've had three miscarriages (one at about 7 weeks, the others at 12), and every single time, people said "well, at least you know you can have children", because I had my son. When you've been trying to have a baby for five years, and all you have to show for it is three miscarriages, lines like that are a little hard to take!

I'm trying for a VBA2C now. And, I've once again had people say "why does it matter? As long as the baby's healthy, who cares how it's born?". Newflash! *I care how it's born!*. I admire you women who have come to terms with your sections and had positive experiences. I just don't feel as though a section is given birth at all. However, after this one, I'm still planning one more, and my OB will willingly do four sections, so that's not a problem, at least.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Storm Bride, many of us have recovered with our babies, my baby never left mine or my husbands arms and the only time I was separated from my husband was the trip back to my room, I took a different route than him.

I hope as well that you can come to terms with your c-sections, I have to say, in my opinion a c-section birth is indeed a birth, it's a little different, but I still *gave birth to my baby*

To be honest, the at least you have a healthy baby doesn't bother me in the least. After 3 miscarriages and a pregnancy where I injected myself with heparin twice a day and took countless other drugs to keep her alive and get her as far as 37 weeks, I gotta say, the only failure in my mind would have been not bringing her home. Perhaps I'm just totally missing something but after the losses and knowing people with beautiful births that produced still babies, I really do fail to see the problem with "at least he/she's healthy" I can get people being pissed about "at least her head is round" but for me at least the big goal was to hold my dd.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Shannon







That was a great post









I have a hard time saying I gave birth to my babies. My dh corrects me on this point. I "Gave life to my babies" birth is what I'm still working on









.


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Storm Bride, many of us have recovered with our babies, my baby never left mine or my husbands arms and the only time I was separated from my husband was the trip back to my room, I took a different route than him.

I hope as well that you can come to terms with your c-sections, I have to say, in my opinion a c-section birth is indeed a birth, it's a little different, but I still *gave birth to my baby*

To be honest, the at least you have a healthy baby doesn't bother me in the least. After 3 miscarriages and a pregnancy where I injected myself with heparin twice a day and took countless other drugs to keep her alive and get her as far as 37 weeks, I gotta say, the only failure in my mind would have been not bringing her home. Perhaps I'm just totally missing something but after the losses and knowing people with beautiful births that produced still babies, I really do fail to see the problem with "at least he/she's healthy" I can get people being pissed about "at least her head is round" but for me at least the big goal was to hold my dd.


Shannon







: Thanks for the perspective. I know I have a lot to be thankful for, and I look at ds everyday and want to cry for how wonderful he is. I still wish he'd been born differently.







I don't have the words to explain it, but I do. *But* when all is said and done, you're right that the most important thing is taking the baby home.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Shannon: I do understand what you're saying about a healthy baby, and of course I'm happy that both my babies _are_ healthy. It's the usual rider of "that's what counts" that I have trouble with. It is the most important thing, but it's not the only thing. I still try to work on the "I gave birth" part of things, but I don't seem to make much progress. To me, birth seems to be something a mother should actually be involved in somehow...

I'm glad I've come here and read about other women's experiences. Before I found this board, I'd never even _heard_ about women being able to be with their babies right after a section. I got to "hold" (with my hands and arms all taped up and stuff...my husband actually held her) precious Emma for about 10 seconds (long enough for one picture) before they took her away again.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I decided I was involved in my birth by having my birth plan. Making requests and having things as ideal as possible.

It hurts my heart to think of new moms being denied their babies for hours while they recover. When TRacy was born he was with me the entire time. He was born, he was quickly evaluated, and a nurse held him while I was stitched up. My dh wanted me to hold him first, and I think he was secretly too nervous and scared







. Tracy was with me in recovery and we even experienced his first elevator ride together at about 30 minutes old.

Bryce on the other hand was taken to the nursery for evaluation and I was told it would be about 45 minutes to an hour after I went to recovery before I would see him. I'm not sure why but for some reason I was ok with it. Thinking back it bothers me that I was like, "Duh, ok." Anyway, they brought him to me 5 minutes after telling me it would be 45-60 :LOL They said he was not happy and latching onto everything. They could weigh and measure him later







So, the hospital I was at was very much in favor of letting the "rules" slide for the benefit of the child. IT was so cool because when you would walk into the maternity ward the nurses were sitting holding the babies. Where Tracy was born they didn't handle them at all. Bryce was in the NICU for 30 hours. It was because of the atmosphere of our birthing place that I felt so at ease. I just can't explain how that place made our birth better.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Shannon,

I too agree with your post. I didn't feel that way after my first birth but the more I learned about Mullerian Anomalies and began to realize how lucky I was to have had a healthy, full term baby in my arms. I put myself at risk trying to get a vaginal delivery by having an ECV for my breech baby, instead of listening to my gut that something wasn't right.

After multiple miscarriages and adopting a "difficult" baby, I was shocked, thrilled and cautious when I discovered I was pregnant with Jack. I had nightmares about my upcoming csection with him, I even told the dreams to my OB at the time. I believe on one support thread I shared that the dreams entailed me having my csection with him in a cemetary on a slab of concrete. Often in the dream they cut the baby out of me, and right beside me was a grave dug. Talk about anxiety. However I meditated, and had a birth plan and I had a doctor who was willing to make this a positive experience for me. The bottom line for me when I walked into that hospital was to have a healthy baby. I didn't take drugs for 11 weeks and puke for over 30 weeks to come home empty handed. I had a highly medical intervention pregnancy -- however I did it "my way" and with full knowledge of what I was doing. In that OR when my son was born it was a healing experience. I felt empowered. I had given birth and it was pain free and beautiful.

With this pregnancy, I have had no nightmares about going into that OR. Just happy thoughts. I will meet my baby in a little over two months and that is exciting. I have a doctor who is working with me to give me the best birth experience that *I* can have.

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Shannon: I do understand what you're saying about a healthy baby, and of course I'm happy that both my babies _are_ healthy. It's the usual rider of "that's what counts" that I have trouble with. It is the most important thing, but it's not the only thing. I still try to work on the "I gave birth" part of things, but I don't seem to make much progress. To me, birth seems to be something a mother should actually be involved in somehow...

I'm glad I've come here and read about other women's experiences. Before I found this board, I'd never even _heard_ about women being able to be with their babies right after a section. I got to "hold" (with my hands and arms all taped up and stuff...my husband actually held her) precious Emma for about 10 seconds (long enough for one picture) before they took her away again.

Storm,
Birth to me is a process. Its not all about pushing a baby through your vaginal cavity. It took me a long time to realize that (five years I guess). I needed to feel involved in the planning of my csection, that is why I found a provider really to cooperatively work with me. I didn't feel I was just getting lip service. I was involved in everything, including during the birth when they couldnt get my son out -- they asked me if they could use a vacuum or forceps and I wanted them to use a vacuum. Nothing that happened that day didn't have my hand in it somehow.

Should you ever find yourself in need of a cesarean again, planning and open dialogue with your OB can make a huge difference. Even in hospitals that have recovery areas can be challenged by the OB. You can plan and arrange to recover in a L&D room. This may take a little more work on the Staffs part, but it can be done. I honestly wasnt away from my last baby for long. I was able to hold him on the table, and then my husband went with him to the nursery. I was in the recovery room (an L&D room) 10-12 minutes later and once I was situated in the bed and my vitals checked they brought my baby to me. The plan is the same for my current pregnancy.

I hope you can find some healing in your journey! Many of us have been there.

Kim


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks...quite a lot, really...

I suspect this one will also end up with a section. I'm talking to my OB and he's at least willing to look at an attempt at VBA2C. But, my daughter was 10lb., 2oz, and he's very hesitant about trying with a large baby. (My son was only 7lb., 12oz., but he had a different father than these two.) Plus, there's always the chance that this one will also end up in a breech position. I have no idea why my first two decided to do their last minute gymnastics and get all turned around, so I don't know if this one will do the same.

I will continue to talk to my OB about how to handle it if I have another section, particularly about having the baby with me while I recover. I don't know how much he can override the idiotic policies at the hospital, but it's worth a try. The hour plus in recovery last time was the slowest hour of my life!

I have a former co-worker who told me about how positive her two c-section were, and I've tried to cultivate that viewpoint, but I don't seem to be getting very far. Even thinking about my first one - 12 years ago - makes me feel depressed and angry and very much like a failure. And, I don't find that being conscious for the process is a big improvement! Every slight tug that I feel makes me want to vomit. However, at least that way, I can have my husband with me....that helps a lot! And, at least there isn't a 3 baby cap on c-section moms anymore.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I have a former co-worker who told me about how positive her two c-section were, and I've tried to cultivate that viewpoint, but I don't seem to be getting very far.


Don't force yourself to feel good about it. I was wathcing the movie "The Incredibles" for the 30th time today (ds1 is sick) and in one place this little lady says, "I don't think to the past, it distracts from the now." It is totally true.

You know it sucked my first baby was born by c/b. I stopped thinking about it once I got pg again. I couldn't. I learned from it. I figured out how to make THIS birth better. I learned how to make THIS birth work for me.

It sounds kinda depressing but you don't ever HAVE to be ok with your births. You can go thorugh out your entire life saying, It sucks my babes were brought into this world this way. BUt at least by taking steps now you can make it birth that works. That is the most loving you can make it. A birth that you can look back on and say, This was a good birth, not perfect, but still good.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Storm Bride, I agree with Megan above, don't force yourself to be okay with it, it's definitely alright to want what you want and work towards the goal. I guess I think of it more as a plan A, plan B thing-especially if your OB is fine with a trial of labor.
I do however *strongly* suggest making a birth plan for a surgical birth and going over it with your doctor, well before "the big day" My personal feeling is that a lot of the trauma that accompanies many surgical births is the feeling of being stripped of any control (at least that would be a HUGE one for me) I technically had the option of being induced and attempting a vaginal birth, the issues for us were 1) I was on an extremely high dose of heparin because we did detect a clot in the cord during the pregnancy--so one way or the other, I had to be induced and have a very scheduled birth as I needed to be taken off blood thinners for at least 12 and preferably 24 hrs or the risk of hemorage was significant. 2) We didn't want me off thinners for too long as risk of a clot in the mother is highest in the first little while pp-therefore, we really didn't want to risk at 36 hr labor or anything like that. 3) My right hip kept dislocating which left us with only one really good position for laboring-hands and knees--which is great, but my knees are in worse shape than my hip :LOL 4) Early inductions do have a high failure rate and recovery from a failed induction resulting in a c-section is much harder than a planned surgical birth (from what I'd heard)
My OB and I chatted about things and I went back and forth between wanting a vaginal birth and succumbing to a surgical birth. Then she deliberatly booked my appt as the last one of the day and told me a few days in advance that I had all the time I needed, and together we'd work out a birth plan-so she asked me to come with a list of what I wanted.
I had tons of stuff on my list everything from wanting my husband and my mother in the room to wanting dh to cut the cord to delayed cord clamping. We then went through the list-of 23 requests I'd only made 3 that she felt couldn't be worked with. Then we went through the list and I told her what ones were *most* important to me--as in--if she has to make a choice at the last minute of which one of my requests to preserve, she would hopefully be able to choose the more important one. I'm glad we did this because my spinal never actually took so I felt everything--so anything that was going to extend the amount of time I was on the table got dumped! But, she knew how important my never leaving Molly was and how important it was to me that dh be with me-so she never pushed a general on me (I did however have a nurse standing behind me and everytime I jumped in pain she would whisper "Oh Shannon-please take the general!!") My arms were never restrained and I was propped up a little on a pillow to make it easier both to see and to hold my dd when she was handed to me--and yeah, I got to hold while she was all gooey and wet-that one mattered to me for some reason. After the first cut, my drape was lowered all the way so I could watch-so I saw her from the moment her little head surfaced







My dh was snapping pics (if you click on Molly's link in my sig and then click on "I'm finally here" you'll see pics of her being pulled out)

I guess I'm just wanting you to know you do have options to make a c-section a joyfull birth--but they NEED to be planned ahead-which is why I'd suggest a plan A plan B approach. I am also a firm believer that when you approach your OB with the attitude of "I know all of what I want may not be possible, but I'd like your help to create the most wonderful experience I can" I think many women make the approach more all or nothing-as in "if I can't have my VBAC, nothing will make me happy and you'll have to fight me every step of the way" Many docs are pleasantly surprised when a mom approachs the situation assuming the doc will do all they can to help them experience the best birth possible. I know it was because I treated my nurses and doctors with respect and took the time to understand why some things did need to be done a certain way that I was allowed to break the rules in MANY other ways. Like Kim was saying in response to someone else (sorry, can't remember who) often when the mom arrives at the hospital in a transfer from a birth centre or a home birth, they treat the doc as the enemy--the person who's going to talk them into all sorts of things they don't want. Often they treat them like they don't know a thing about childbirth-this part floors me-I actually spoke with a mom who was forced into a surgical birth because of low fluid and the midwife felt the baby was in danger. Her friend kept telling her that the stupid OB doesn't know a darn thing about childbirth and strongarmed her into an emergency c-section--but ya know what--this woman delivered a 3lb 11oz baby at 37 w gestation, he was shrivelled up, dehydrated and all his skin was peeling off--this was a case where the OB really did save the day. Another MDC mama who I know personally, was planning a home water birth, she went overdue and at 2 weeks overdue suddenly her NST's weren't looking good and her fluid was dropping, she was admitted to induce and monitored all night, in the morning the OB strongly suggested a section--this baby had passed meconium likely weeks and weeks ago-he was completely green, mom's uterus was stained green and he was immediately whisked off to the NICU. She was so fortunate that her midwife was actually allowed to stay for the surgery and she told her matter of factly--yeah, women have been giving birth at home since the beginning of time--but we used to expect a certain number of women to loose one or two children during childbirth. The midwife told her-if he'd been born at home-he would not have lived. Anyway, it really bugs me when people trash OB's-sure there's some lousy ones--there's lousy midwives too, but I'm guessing during their university career, they likely learned at least something about childbirth.

Well, I guess that turned into a rant at the end, but strongly consider working with your OB now to decide what will go on if you DO need another c-section.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Maybe this goes without saying but I think when planning a surgical birth this is often overlooked. Provider is everything. Your relationship with your provider is everything when planning a hospital birth. If there is no trust there than in the end you will be unhappy with the outcome.

I find that women, who even plan vaginal births, don't ask key questions nor facilitate a relationship with their OB to get a good handle on what the OB expects from you as a patient and what they are willing to do to accomadate their needs. I think also you have to keep in mind the perimaters (sp) they have to work in, and navigate the road to your own benefit. Hospital policies can be overlooked, the rules can be broken and all it takes is for your doctor to say so. If your doctor says "This is hospital policy" then they probably don't care to assist you in the matter or want the responsibility of giving you a no laid on the hospital and their staff. For instance: Photography and videotaping is not permitted at the birth, vaginal or cesarean at the hospital I am going to -- yet the doctor has said its fine and that what she says goes. Its hospital policy to administer eye ointment, however my pediatrician overrides them in saying "no its not needed". Standard surgical proceedure is to have your arms strapped to the table -- something else your doctor can override as well. It may be hospital policy for you to recover in a recovery area, but your doctor can override that.
I think at times its difficult to determine if you are given lip service by your provider, I know for me I feel like that my OB is going to do her best in providing me with the birth I want and accomodate my requests. I am working within her confines of her own rules. I am doing little to put her at risk. I am willing to compromise on certain things to have others.

I have more to say but I have to take two little boys to preschool.

Kim


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Well said Kim, that's what I was going for, but it was 3:30 in the morning here!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The OB I'm seeing is the same one who did my last section. I did feel bullied ito that one (although I probably would have ended up having one, anyway), but I think that's because I didn't stand up for myself. When I found out that Emma was breech and my GP said it would have to be another section, I just fell apart. I honestly think a true emergency would have been easier to take.

I've already accepted that this one may very well be a section, but even if it goes to a scheduled one, I already feel a bit better about it than either of the previous ones. At least I know that I've looked into things, and am working for what's best for me. I don't really have a birth plan, but I do have at least a few things I'm going to put into writing. I won't be induced, for example. I've never heard anything good about induction, and the women I've known who have been induced have all ended up with sections, anyway.

I don't know if my doctor can override hospital policy or not. I'm in Canada, not the US, and I honestly don't know what guidelines our medical services operate under. I'll try to find out about that, but I don't even know where to start looking! Even if this one's another section, I think it will be better than the previous two...and some of that is because of this forum. Thank you all so much!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Storm Bride, I'm in Canada, actually I think it often makes things easier, our hospitals tend to be a little more mother and baby friendly than most of the US hospitals--our doctors are also not quite so worried about being sued--I mean it happens here, but not the way it does in the States.
Where are you in Canada, if I can help at all, just let me know.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm in North Vancouver, BC.

I honestly haven't found the hospitals here to be all that mother and child friendly. My sister was verbally abused by her OB nurses because she "whined" about the pain. She tried to tell them that she was afraid her chlamydia scars were tearing, but they wouldn't listen to her, and she had a horrible first birth. With that same baby (her first), they kept doing blood tests on him, and wouldn't say why. It turned out that some of the nurses were convinced she had done drugs during her pregnancy - because she has tattoos - and were trying to find evidence that she'd addicted her son.

When her twins were born, the little girl was taken to BC Children's Hospital after an emergency section (the boy was born vaginally, then the girl presented badly, and was turning blue) to monitor her for brain damage due to oxygen deprivation. My niece spent over a week basically all alone in a "special care" nursery...even though they admitted to my sister that there was nothing they could do even if they found anything, and that they would be doing tests later that would show the damage. Her poor twin was depressed, and I'm sure my nieces was, as well. The community nurse who came to see my sister read her the riot act for not having been to see the baby...my sister had three kids, no car, and had just had a c-section!

When I had my son, a nurse brought him to me for feeding and told me to "hurry up - there are other babies here, you know". This was because I was post-section, and recovering from general anaesthetic - I couldn't even get onto my side to try to breastfeed!

Whoops...bit of a rant there. But, I'm not overly impressed with how mother, baby & birth friendly our hospitals are.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Wow that sucks!! I think I'll pop in and thank my amazing nurses in my little small town hick hospital!! You know, it's never too late to switch care providers, if this one is unwilling to push for what you want. I know my OB handpicked my nurses as ones who were keen on doing things more naturally.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm not going to switch my OB. He's a good guy, and from all accounts, he's the best OB in my area. But, the nurses I get will be whoever is on duty on the maternity ward...and I haven't found many of them to be worth much, unfortunately. Maybe I'll get a VBAC, and be out of hospital in a day, instead of three.


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Storm Bride, many of us have recovered with our babies, my baby never left mine or my husbands arms and the only time I was separated from my husband was the trip back to my room, I took a different route than him.

I hope as well that you can come to terms with your c-sections, I have to say, in my opinion a c-section birth is indeed a birth, it's a little different, but I still *gave birth to my baby*

To be honest, the at least you have a healthy baby doesn't bother me in the least. After 3 miscarriages and a pregnancy where I injected myself with heparin twice a day and took countless other drugs to keep her alive and get her as far as 37 weeks, I gotta say, the only failure in my mind would have been not bringing her home. Perhaps I'm just totally missing something but after the losses and knowing people with beautiful births that produced still babies, I really do fail to see the problem with "at least he/she's healthy" I can get people being pissed about "at least her head is round" but for me at least the big goal was to hold my dd.

I found this really offensive. I had a scheduled c-section for breech when I was planning a homebirth, and I found it incredibly dismissive of me and my feelings when people would say things like "you're going to have a baby, that's all that matters." I had invested a lot of emotional energy into planning my birth, and was really looking forward to labor and delivery. I didn't get to have any of that. Of course I was thrilled that my little boy was born healthy and happy, but I also mourned the loss of my envisioned birth. I almost smacked my coworker who, upon hearing that I was going to have to have a c-section (after spending a week doing everything under the sun to get him to flip, said "C-sections are no big deal, I've had two." Well, bully for you, but it's a big deal to me.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammylc*
I found this really offensive. I had a scheduled c-section for breech when I was planning a homebirth, and I found it incredibly dismissive of me and my feelings when people would say things like "you're going to have a baby, that's all that matters." I had invested a lot of emotional energy into planning my birth, and was really looking forward to labor and delivery. I didn't get to have any of that. Of course I was thrilled that my little boy was born healthy and happy, but I also mourned the loss of my envisioned birth. I almost smacked my coworker who, upon hearing that I was going to have to have a c-section (after spending a week doing everything under the sun to get him to flip, said "C-sections are no big deal, I've had two." Well, bully for you, but it's a big deal to me.

Many moons ago, I found it offensive as well but now I don't. I had planned a natural bradley birth, and was totally disappointed and enraged actually that I wasn't going to get the birth I planned.

Now, I am disappointed that I didn't get the birth of my dreams, but I don't find it offensive when someone says "at least you have a healthy baby". I was lucky and there was nothing I could do that was going to give me a vaginal birth, then or even now. I'm done mourning what *I* wanted. Of course it has been over 8 years for me, and I see there was a bigger plan (by god/goddess or design). I've also come to realize that what I want, may not be what I need. I needed a csection, and I need another one. *I* personally learned a lot of life lessons from the experience and about myself.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm really not sure what you found offensive. I expressed my own feelings regarding a comment that was being made. I personally have no problem with it and I explained why I personaly have no problem with that statement. I'm not certain whether you bothered to read my post prior to getting up in arms about it, but NEVER, EVER, ANYWHERE did I say that c-sections are no big deal. I did say that I was fortunate and was able to plan my c-section out and that *I* had a *DAMN GOOD EXPERIENCE BIRTHING MY BABY*
If you take the time to actually read what I wrote and take it in, you will see that the comment that I have NO problem with is "At least the baby is ok" (or healthy or some version there of) When I hear "At least" I feel that it recognizes that things were not perfect, not everything went as planned, but in the end, you *DO* have a healthy baby to show for your experience. A couple years ago and rolled and practically totalled my truck. I can assure you that I also did not take offence when my husband said "Geez honey, at least you're ok" Yeah fine hon, I'm ok but I just totalled a $70 000 truck, we're gonna pay in insurance for years--but in the end yeah, I'm ok.
If you doubt which experience is the one that counts the most to a mother-the birth or the process, I urge you to make a visit to pregnancy and birth loss--pose the question "ok, you can have the perfect birth--but your baby dies--or you can have the most horrific c-section experience you can imagine"--I'm gonna place my bets that not one of them would agree to have the good birth but the dead baby. I'm sorry if that sounds terribly harsh, but that's where my experience base lies in this--so yeah, I'm not thrilled that I couldn't deliver vaginally, but there's nothing in this world that would make me put the process of getting my baby here before actually getting her here. If you don't feel that way--that's your perogative and I really don't care, I expressed my opinion that the phrase "At least your baby is healthy" doesn't bother me and why. You frankly have NO right to be offended by the fact that something doesn't offend ME.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Of course it has been over 8 years for me, and I see there was a bigger plan (by god/goddess or design). I've also come to realize that what I want, may not be what I need. I needed a csection, and I need another one. *I* personally learned a lot of life lessons from the experience and about myself.

I have a lot of respect for that...the ability to find lessons in all this. My first section was 12 years ago, and I don't feel as though I've learned anything from my experiences. The whole thing just depresses me, enrages me and makes me feel like a failure.


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## Aiti (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi... I'm a 2 time c-section mom with a Mullerian Anomaly.
I'm just posting now so I can find the thread again later. I want to read the whole thread before adding my thoughts.


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## SKK (Apr 9, 2005)

Hi,

First, let me apologize for breaking up the flow of the discussion here - I'm not sure where to introduce myself, so I guess I'll just do it here.









I have been lurking and reading these discussions for awhile, but was just finally able to register









I have had 2 c/s... the first in March 2002 and the second in February 2005. Thus, as you may figure, I have a 3 year old ds







: and a ds that is about 8 weeks old now







:

Both c/s came after very long labors (60 hours and 50 hours, respectively). I prepared to go naturally both times, and was fairly well-educated and well-prepared for natural birth (the first time) and a natural vbac (the second time). Despite my best-laid plans and efforts, things did not go as I'd planned either time. I'm sad, to the extent that I did not get to "meet" my babies as I'd hoped to at the moment of their births...







However, despite my continued belief that natural birth is best, I am not - and never was - disappointed... I believe that for whatever reason - maybe one I'll never understand - my babies had to be born as they were, and for me, that is a happy thing. They were BIG and healthy, and I was also healthy, despite the extra recovery time necessitated by the c/s. Fortunately, I had great family support both times, so did not suffer greatly.

My care providers and hospital (cnms, same both times) were extremely professional and caring, and never did I feel rushed or railroaded; I felt in control of the situation both times - so there was never a question of having had a "bad" experience - that is to say, I never felt like things were done without my participation and consent. No restrictions or limitations were placed on me or my laboring either time. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, to the extent possible, I accept my c/s's as how *I birthed* my children. If I go forward to have one more child, it will be a planned c/s, because even if I were to find a provider who would assist me with a vba2c, there is NO WAY I am going through ONE OF MY labors again just to have another c/s!

Anyway, I hope to participate in the discussion, and get to know you!

SKK


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I have a lot of respect for that...the ability to find lessons in all this. My first section was 12 years ago, and I don't feel as though I've learned anything from my experiences. The whole thing just depresses me, enrages me and makes me feel like a failure.

This is not directed at you Storm but I think this is something to discuss for some healthy dialogue. I know for me there was a time I didn't want to look to the reason and the what for -- I was more interested in the blame and why this happened to me. It wasn't until I decided that *for me* there was really no blame. I had a horrific experience -- and I could have had better medical care, but in the heat of it all, I think they were just trying to do their jobs. I made choices, like choosing a "green" doctor and by choosing to get an ECV, instead of trusting that my baby was breech for a reason. I could blame my mother or her OB from twenty something years ago at the time for giving her DES that made my uterus deformed.
For me the lesson was more spiritual. I had to get pass blame and accept my own responsibilty in what happened in that OR. I also had to see that everything is not black and white. My body can't birth babies. Its not that I don't trust birth, its that my body isn't equipped to do it out my vaginal walls. I used to be judgemental of women who had csections by my assessment of either ignorance or choice, or women who had epidurals by ignorance or choice. Then the unimaginable happen to myself. It was actually hypocritical that being pro-choice I would want to hinder or force women to birth the way I think is best.
I wouldn't be here on this thread had I had a vaginal birth, I would most likely be a lurker passing judgement on everyone who posted here and thinking what morons or uninformed you all were. I would be unsypathetic to mothers who had had traumatic birth experiences and would fake happiness for those who sang the praises of their epidural births or surgical births.
I don't think you have to be okay with having a csection. I think if it was necessary however there should be some type of acceptance that it happened and of yourself.
Hope I am making sense.

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aiti*
Hi... I'm a 2 time c-section mom with a Mullerian Anomaly.
I'm just posting now so I can find the thread again later. I want to read the whole thread before adding my thoughts.

What kind of Mullerian Anomaly do you have?

Welcome to our thread!

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

SKK,

Thank you for sharing your story. OMG, two labors that long, you must be super woman. What is the medical reason for your csection if you don't mind sharing?

Now let me get my jaw off the floor while I await your answer.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Wow SKK, that is some major leak laboring!! Also, feel free to join us on the Feb thread in life with a babe, we're a fairly active group.


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## SKK (Apr 9, 2005)

Well, really, it was malpositioned babies (heads, mainly) that would not be moved into a better position!

My first was asynclinic. My second was facing up. I used all the fetal positioning exercises and tips I could find, both during the last months of pregnancy, as well as during labor, but nothing worked, ultimately. I dliated to 9-1/2 both times, but babies would not drop due to the positioning.

Glad to be here!

Sue


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Did nobody say it to you? It seemed as though everyone dismissed my feelings about my sections with "at least the baby's healthy - that's what really counts". What - I don't count? I'm not an incubator!

I'm trying for a VBA2C now. And, I've once again had people say "why does it matter? As long as the baby's healthy, who cares how it's born?". Newflash! *I care how it's born!*. I admire you women who have come to terms with your sections and had positive experiences. I just don't feel as though a section is given birth at all.


hi! i'm new here. this really resonated with me. Of course i'm glad my son is healthy, but I really feel like *I* missed out on one of the fundamental experiences of womanhood. I feel funny even saying the phrase "gave birth" because what I did was have surgery. I'm going to try for a vbac next time, too, and hopefully it will work out, but if it doesn't, any one who tells me that at least my child is healthy is going to get something nasty tossed in their general direction. :LOL


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

It's really the "that's what counts" part that gets to me, I think...

Kim: I get angry about the sections, but I don't really blame the doctors. And, I never looked down on women who had c-sections (although I think the trend to choose them for the "convenience of scheduling" with no medical indications is...bizarre.) I do have issues with myself. But, it's not only about the sections. There are other things that I wouldn't get into here, and there are the miscarriages. I've had three - every one of them was complete - no D&C required, and they were over with in a single night. It's hard to describe, but it completely creeps me out and depresses me that my body can repeatedly deliver dead babies at 12 weeks with no problem at all, yet I need a surgeon with a scalpel to deliver the live ones. Maybe it would be different if my labour with my son had been really rough, but it wasn't at all. It all just blew up at the end.

Well...we'll see how I do if it happens this time. I'm feeling better about the whole thing than I did a few months ago.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Storm Bride, first I'm really sorry about your miscarriages, I too have had 3 (although only the very early one happened without help) I guess the thing that you need to keep in mind regarding that your body is able to deliver a 12 week fetus with no problems is that at that stage there are no issues with positioning, or babies in distress or any of the other multitudes of reasons women end up with required c-sections. I remember my first miscarriage-back when I thought I'd have a homebirth with a midwife (just in case anyone thinks the "how" they get here was never a concern for me) When I got my dh to take me to the hospital, my reasoning was for the pain-I'd never in my life been in so much pain (and I live with chronic pain every day because of my rhuematoid arthritis) I wanted pain meds and I wanted them immediately. By the time I arrived at hospital I was also hemmoraging and had a barely registerable blood pressure and slipping in and out of consiousness. After it was over I remember being so angry at myself--that I couldn't take the pain--that I was passing this tiny little bit of a fetus and the pain won--how the heck did I think I was going to deliver a full term baby at home with no drugs. I've since then realized and forgiven myself, afterall, pain is a whole lot easier to take when the outcome is your perfect baby--that's why I was able to have my c-section even though my spinal didn't take--I just kept my eye on the prize so to speak. So please don't beat yourself up, or be mad at your body the fact that it can birth a 12 week old fetus but not a full term labor. I do understand what you're saying though with that, for a long time I hated my body (not the way it looked--but the way it worked) and it took me a long time (and I'm still working on it) to trust my body again to do what's right. It's such a feeling of helplessness when you realize (right or wrong) that you can't trust your body to do what it was intended to do.

Now the tougher part :LOL Maybe you can help me understand something-because I do appear to be really missing an emotion that is common among women who have c-sections. (and yes, now I'm specifically asking for opinions







) I said in a previous post that I have no problem with the "At least the baby is healthy" Primarily because I feel that when "at least" is said that it does acknowledge that things didn't go as planned, I don't find it in any way dismissive. I do totally "get" how having your feelings regarding the way your baby is born *dismissed* would be infuriating, like the pp who was angry over a co-worker saying a c-section is no big deal-that part I get completely, but I as I explained before, when I hear or when I say "at least" in my opinion that does acknowledge that things did not go the way they should have-but in the end, baby is healthy and that's the big goal. So to me "at least the baby is healthy" and "c-sections are no big deal" are in NO WAY alike. I agree, c-sections are a big deal-anything that involves the birth of a child is by it's very nature a big deal-add to that a major abdominal surgery and the loss of your ability to have the birth you want and yeah, it's a huge big deal. But..... again, with the "that's what counts" being a problem, this is where I think I'm really missing things and I would like to better understand the way some mama's feel about this--why is "that's what counts" so wrong or hurtfull to say--isn't bringing the baby home healthy what counts?? I'm not saying it's all that counts, but in the grand scheme of things--is it not the most important thing?? Does anyone actually get pregnant for the soul purpose of giving birth vaginally?? Again, I look at it much like a car accident, or a house fire--horrible and hurtfull and devastating as they are isn't the most important thing that everyone is alright and healthy at the end of it? I guess I'm asking, would you be offended or bothered if say, your house burned down, you've lost everything, you'll have to start over---*but* your family escaped without injury and you will all be fine, would it be offensive if I then said to you "at least you are all ok, that's what counts" I'm asking this because I'll be honest, I spent years as a volunteer fire fighter and I handle a search and rescue dog and am just generally very involved with rescue on a whole--and you know, I can't even begin to count the number of times I've said those very words--adn I can assure you, it never crossed my mind that someone may be offended by them, but they were certainly never said with the intention to cause pain (as by the way I firmly believe nobody ever says these things to a mom after a section to cause pain--even the woman who claimed they were no big deal--I don't know her, but I'm guessing her intentions were good)

So, if you can, help me understand-as I said, I've said these words and I'd hate to think anyone had been offended by them and I'd hate even more to think they figure I said them with malice.


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## wenat (Apr 17, 2004)

My SIL delivered her first child at 24 weeks, and he lived for 10 excruciating days with the help of much medical intervention. I was at 28 weeks at the time, and spent the next three months in fear of what might happen to my baby.

When it came time to deliver, and I was told that I'd be having a c-section (water had broken, chance of prolapsed cord because he'd popped out of the birth canal and his shoulder was presenting), I was not at all freaked out.

The worst had already happened to my family -- losing a baby. I didn't care what I had to go through to make sure that I had a healthy, living child.

So Shannon, "at least the baby is healthy" wouldn't have been words that would have offended me at all. My mantra was, "healthy baby, healthy mama." And we got both.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Wenat: That's actually part of it right there - "healthy baby, healthy mama" - who says? I fortunately only want four kids, but if they're all c-section, the doctors here wouldn't be willing to provide care for another pregnancy, because my uterus is too damaged. I'm healthy, in the sense that my activities aren't limited, etc. But, I'm _not_ healthy in the sense that the surgery damaged me...the whole "VBAC vs. ERCS" debate just proves that c-sections damage your body. I don't feel healthy or whole since that first surgery back in '93. And, the fact that a doctor will even say "your next one will have to be a c-section" just because they've already cut me open twice (even though I didn't want them to) just underlines that. My uterus is damaged. There's great concern about a uterine rupture, but it was the fact that I was cut open in the first place that increases my risk.

shannon: It's a hard line to draw, emotionally. For me, at least, the tag about "that's what counts" is emotionally equivalent to saying "that's all that counts" - and it's not. As you've said, of course it's the most important thing, but it's not the only thing. During my first trimester of this pregnancy, I was having nightmares every night about terrible things happening to Emma (my 2-year-old) because I simply couldn't move fast enough post-op to rescue her. I can remember being stuck on my couch for half an hour with my son - how can I possibly look after a very active toddler like that? (I know I can, because I know women have done it.) Aside from my own emotional issues about the c-sections, that's another factor. I'm basically being told that rendering me incapable of caring for my older children doesn't matter as long as the newborn is healthy.

As for saying that to people in a fire or rescue situation, I don't know how I'd react. I think that the fact that my whole family was okay would be most important initially, and I'd certainly understand what you were saying. But, the comment _might_ (having never been in that situation, I really don't know) strike me as saying that it didn't matter that I'd just lost everything (including photos, mementos, items with sentimental value). _IF_ it struck me like that, I'd probably find the comment hurtful, but I certainly wouldn't think you meant it that way!

I don't know if any of this makes any more sense than my previous posts. The entire subject of having children has had me more emotionally messed up than anything else in my life, and it's been like that for over a decade. (I had a near-perfect first pregnancy - I had other women tell me they hated me because it so problem-free, followed by a completely unforeseen c-section, then 3.5 years of unsuccessfully TTC, then the miscarriages, then another c-section...it doesn't seem to me to be an area where my body does anything right.) In my more idiotic moments, I wonder if I'm being punished for being so smug about my first pregnancy - then I think that's probably a bit stupid...


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## SKK (Apr 9, 2005)

You know, in some sense, I agree -

Although I believe it to be true ("at least I got a healthy baby and healthy mama"), I really don't like people saying it to me, because in doing so, it belittles my experience, and it almost implies that I was somehow stupid - or at least shallow - in the first place for caring about how the births of my children were accomplished. That being said, I think, in truth, most people don't make this (or similar) statements to new moms to belittle them or discount their experiences. I actually think people are coming from a good place when they say things like this, and that they are actually trying to make us feel better by saying this. Most people who make these statements have never had babies themselves, or, have done so but have not been informed/educated about different ways of birthing, etc., and thus, did not care. So, they just don't know any better.

In my own case, I do mourn not so much the loss of the birth experience (I did have extensive labors both times, so in a way, I feel I've had the experience of "natural labor", although I never pushed a baby out) but the loss of those first few moments with my babies. Such a special moment in life that you can never get back.









Sue







:
Mamma of 2 ds - #1 (3 yo)







and #2 (8 weeks)







boy:
and one old







: and one old








:


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

to share their csection experiances? I read this thread often. I may have even formed a few phrases and posted them... I cannot remember. But, for the most part, I find myself unable to express the dire anxiety and sense of failure left inside of me from my csection. The absolute terror of not seeing my own child for his first 3 days of life. Not being the one to change his first diaper. The sense I have of HIS terror at not having a mama with him. Of being tubed someone elses milk (but, thankgoodness for that someone else!). The hatred I have for my own body... it failed me. It failed my son and my husband. My husband doesn't trust me to have another baby and not die or kill the baby in the process of growing it. argh... I wish I could get it all out. But, I cannot. WHy??? And, I'm embarrassed to say... my son is 2years old!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

edamommy: I've posted quite a few times on this thread, and still don't feel as though I've expressed my feelings well at all. I do feel as though some women here understand me, but that's because of some commonality of experience, _not_ because I have the right words to discuss all the feelings I've had and continue to have. Don't feel badly about not feeling able to express yourself well after two years...I still can't, and it's been 12!

SKK: Thank you for "I really don't like people saying it to me, because in doing so, it belittles my experience, and it almost implies that I was somehow stupid - or at least shallow - in the first place for caring about how the births of my children were accomplished." I think you've put your finger on a big part of why this bothers me so much. I feel as though I'm being criticized for not being happy about the surgery.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Storm Bride - I don't mean this to be rude but have you considered getting counselling? I have had two c-sections myself, both horrible experiences. My son is now 4 and my daughter is almost 2.5 and I can honestly say at this point that even though there is a little twang of pain when I think about it I DO feel that the most important thing is a healthy baby and I have moved on. I find it very sad that you have let this consume you for so many years. I don't know you but I bet you are an awesome mama to your kids. You can do so many other wonderful things, to let this one thing consume you to such an extent is very sad. I hope you can find some closure and sense of peace about this. I am planning to try for another baby this summer and I will be planning a 3rd c-section. I just want my baby here safely, that IS all that matters to me.

In regards to the discussion about "that's what matters" I would like to ask one question - have the people who are offended by that lost a child at birth or known someone who has? I am shocked that people find this offensive. My son was born prematurely by emerg c-section. We both almost died, he was born dead and I was very ill with full-blown eclampsia. I didn't see my son for 5 days because he was airlifted to a big city hospital where he struggled for life in the NICU. That experience was horrible and the baby being healthy IS all that matters to me. My son could very well have died and with that experience I can't imagine anyone being so consumed with how the baby came out. My daughter was an emerg c-section again after 25 hours of labour at a homebirth. She was born blue as well after aspirating meconium and it took them 2 minutes to get her breathing. Luckily except for that she didn't suffer any ill-effects and was happily at the breast at an hour old. My children are here and alive and I'm happy about that!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
Storm Bride - I don't mean this to be rude but have you considered getting counselling? I have had two c-sections myself, both horrible experiences. My son is now 4 and my daughter is almost 2.5 and I can honestly say at this point that even though there is a little twang of pain when I think about it I DO feel that the most important thing is a healthy baby and I have moved on. I find it very sad that you have let this consume you for so many years. I don't know you but I bet you are an awesome mama to your kids. You can do so many other wonderful things, to let this one thing consume you to such an extent is very sad. I hope you can find some closure and sense of peace about this. I am planning to try for another baby this summer and I will be planning a 3rd c-section. I just want my baby here safely, that IS all that matters to me.

In regards to the discussion about "that's what matters" I would like to ask one question - have the people who are offended by that lost a child at birth or known someone who has? I am shocked that people find this offensive. My son was born prematurely by emerg c-section. We both almost died, he was born dead and I was very ill with full-blown eclampsia. I didn't see my son for 5 days because he was airlifted to a big city hospital where he struggled for life in the NICU. That experience was horrible and the baby being healthy IS all that matters to me. My son could very well have died and with that experience I can't imagine anyone being so consumed with how the baby came out. My daughter was an emerg c-section again after 25 hours of labour at a homebirth. She was born blue as well after aspirating meconium and it took them 2 minutes to get her breathing. Luckily except for that she didn't suffer any ill-effects and was happily at the breast at an hour old. My children are here and alive and I'm happy about that!

**hmmmm.......... my son almost died. I almost died. I labored for 3 days. Everything, including the last trimester of my pregancy- was a failure. I didn't even see him for 3 days after him being cut out of me. I'm a little offended by your post. and I'm sorry as I'm sure you didn't intend to offend anyone BUT... none the less. I am happy that my son is alive. But I grieve so much for my failure as a mother. I couldn't carry him. I couldn't birth him. In the end I don't think I could even speak for him or myself. I cannot imagine being without this pain I feel inside due to the failure of my body, etc. Yet I cannot imagine having to carry it for 12 years... but believe I will. I guess we are all different. Some of us can move on and get over the whole "need" to birth. others cannot.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, I am seeing one thing here and I really hope that nobody takes this the wrong way-however, I can certainly see it being taken the wrong way. The people who are offended, you are attaching an unbelievable amount of emotions--that are from *you* onto a statement someone else makes. Now please know, I'm in no way saying you shouldn't feel these feelings--that's not even remotely what I'm saying--but think about it--when someone says to me after knowing what I went through to get her here and seeing me through a hellish pregnancy--when they look at her laughing and smiling and say with a tear in their eye "at least she's here-and she's perfect"--I just find it a really huge jump to take that as them feeling I'm stupid, or ill informed, or silly for having wanted a vaginal birth--sure I wanted a vaginal birth--but what I REALLY wanted was a healthy little girl. If someone had told me that there was a 1% better chance of her surviving to term if every morning I shoved flaming bamboo shoots under my nails--I'd have done it--I wouldn't have even had to think about it. I think the statement when made by a stranger or a close friend/relative means exactly what it says--"she's here, she's healthy and that's what counts" I don't think strangers or even our close friends and relatives would ever think to take that deeper. I think that is something that you are reading into a very innocent statement--because of YOUR hurt--that you are entitled to have--but how can someone know those deep hurts before you tell them and share it all--and if you aren't even at the point yet of expressing it yourself, then you can be assured, they probably don't know.
I'm going to be honest, a lot of the hurt I feel on this board more likely comes from the other side of this very same coin--I sometimes feel I'm being belittled because I didn't make the choice to birth my baby vaginally against ALL the odds--sure there was that 5% chance it could have worked--I've felt from a few mothers on these boards that I am a lesser mother for not taking that chance--if I really loved my baby--if I knew better or were better educated, I wouldn't have chosen the "easy way out" and that hurts--it hurts me that it isn't recognized that all that was important was her being alive and healthy--and the best chance of that, for me, was with a c-section--and yeah, that was all that mattered, my discomfort didn't matter, my adhesions I have now-don't matter--all that mattered was her.

Now, Storm Bride, I can see what you're talking about in feeling like you are somehow incapacitated to take care of your other children because of your c-sections. That said-I was up and walking 6 hrs after surgery, I required no pain meds for my actual surgery by 48 hrs after surgery--I was released from hospital in slightly less than 48 hrs after my surgery--and had I pushed for it--I could have been released the day before. MANY doctors will do more than 3 c-sections--possibly more than won't do more than 3 c-sections. Policy and risk assessment on VBACS is very much dependant on the individual hospital. If you were to plan it and work with a doctor, I'm sure you could have another child--there is someone on these boards who has had 6 c-sections. For instance at my hospital, their c-section rate is 10%, their VBAC failure rate is 14%--not that big a difference--so it depends on the OB you work with.

Honestly, like Heavenly said, I am sad, for both you and Kimberly that you feel such sadness about the experience that brought your child into the world. I so hope that you both will find some peace, I don't have a clue how to suggest you go about finding that peace, but I'm certain you are both wonderful mommies and that you are beating yourselves up--for something you had no control over is sad to me and I really do feel for you--I don't pity you, but I hurt for you that you can't move on and love yourself for the mama you are now and in the future.

Now, that said, if you were a mama who was simply uneducated or didn't care about what was best for the baby--that would upset me. I was unable to breast feed, I knew going in I likely wouldn't be able to. I tried, I used a lact aid, I had a lactation consultant, but I didn't produce a drop and I think my depression over that was leaking into the entire relationship and it was just bad. So I did give it up and chose to use lots of skin to skin contact instead. I do know I beat myself up for that for a good 5 weeks--especially when she was sick--wow boy, I might as well have used a whip on myself--I told my dh that I was irresponsible to have a child if I was unable to give her what she needed. I don't think that way anymore--but one really scary thing is--I *KNOW* for a fact that there are women on this board who think just that--that I had NO right to have a child if I couldn't breastfeed her (I know because this person was so kind as to PM me the message)

It's so difficult, sometimes I think having the knowledge of the ideal makes it worse--we're harder on ourselves than anyone else would ever be. In this community, one is certainly made to feel like "less of a mom" if she was unable to birth her baby squatting in the woods atop a bed of moss. But so much more goes into being a good parent than a good birth.
Just my humble and jumbled opinion.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

... Taking a deep breath and jumping in ...

Here's my take on the whole "at least everyone is healthy" issue, FWIW.

For some women (not everyone, but I think perhaps for most AP/NFL/crunchy mama types), the birth experience is placed on a really high pedestal. There is SO MUCH PRESSURE to have a natural birth, and when you don't, somehow you are no longer a full dues paying member of the club, regardless of the reason for the c/s. I think for all of us, at the moment we consented to our c/s, it really seemed like the best decision we could make under the circumstances with all the information we had available at that particular moment. I know for me that after a long labor (not nearly as long as some of you ladies -- wow!), after being scared into staying in bed on my back (with back labor no less) b/c "they" were scared of cord prolapse, after getting an epidural b/c I couldn't handle the above, after pushing for 2 hours with little progress, after being told ds was having decels, after having no sleep for 36+ hours and no food for 20+ hours, I was just beat tired and wanted everything to be over and done with and more than anything, I wanted a healthy baby. As the hours and days and weeks and months passed after my ds's birth, as I re-educated myself about birth, as I asked questions of knowledgeable women and drs. and midwives (thank you doctorjen and pamamidwife, if you're reading) regarding my labor, I began to understand that all the stuff I was fed while in labor, when I was at my most vulnerable, was a lot of litigation-based medicine. That angered me (and still does, depending on the day). I had educated myself thoroughly, so how could this have happened to me? Moreover, my ds had a bad presentation, so had none of the interventions/coercions happened, would I still have had a c/s or would he have corrected his position and come out vaginally? I will never know, and that uncertainty is hard to deal with sometimes.

What I'm getting at is that when we are, with the exception of our birth experience (and I mean that in a c/s vs. v/b kind of way, not in a choice kind of way), a part of a community that values natural birth so highly, when we place enormous pressure on ourselves to birth vaginally, and then we "fail" for whatever reason (our bodies have anamolies, our babies are positioned poorly, our health or our baby's health has deteriorated, or we were just in the wrong place at the wrong time), we crash emotionally. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if, while in labor under the circumstances of my ds's labor, someone told me that my right arm needed to be severed to save my ds from certain death, I'd ask for the saw myself. Yes, a healthy, happy baby is the goal. But the process is also important too for a variety of reasons. And when expectation and reality don't even come close, there is a world of disappointment there that manifests itself. And when someone says "well at least you and baby are healthy & alive" you feel angry b/c they are dismissing the whole process for you by only focusing on the end result.

I think people mean well when they say this. I really do. But I also think most people don't give two hoots about the birthing experience. They just don't value it in the same way we do. Either they really don't care about the birthing experience (most mainstream folks), they never had a choice about it themselves (our mothers, sisters, aunts, etc.), they are of the drs. are gods belief, or they just don't have any experience with birth (childless friends and most men). And then we turn around to the AP/NFL/crunchy community and we are outcasts b/c we've failed. I think the "healthy & alive" statement just reinforces that for us, while at the same time, we are perpetually bombarded with messages here that we must've been stupid b/c it happened to us.

Honestly, I think we all can agree that the most important thing is that we have our babies in our arms. I don't think a single mama here would say that the perfect birth would be better than a dead or severely compromised child. So in that respect, I think we're all on the same page.

However, I think where we disagree is the role of the birth experience. Some of us placed a HUGE weight on that experience in our minds. For others of us, it wasn't as important. For those for whom it was hugely important, we wanted something specific, and we were probably willing to compromise a little with respect to it, but somehow we ended up in an entirely different place than we expected, and we are now in a position where no one gets what our problem is. Our "problem" is that we are grieving the experience we lost. Some of us grieved quickly. Some of us will grieve forever. We are different people with vastly different personas and experiences. Some of us probably were "violated" during their births far more greatly than others. Some of us might have been betrayed by those we trusted a lot more. Some of us might have just been the victims of bad circumstances. But the best we can do is take each woman where she is at, respect where she has come from, and help her move forward toward a place of healing and acceptance -- at a pace that is respectful of her and her experience. And for some of us, statements like "healthy and alive" are hurtful simply b/c they remind us of what we lost (even though we are simultaneously so happy to have what we have).

I'm not sure if all this babbling has made a lick of sense, so I'll stop now. But ladies, can't we all just get along?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Now, Storm Bride, I can see what you're talking about in feeling like you are somehow incapacitated to take care of your other children because of your c-sections. That said-I was up and walking 6 hrs after surgery, I required no pain meds for my actual surgery by 48 hrs after surgery--I was released from hospital in slightly less than 48 hrs after my surgery--and had I pushed for it--I could have been released the day before.

I've heard this before, too. It doesn't help - if anything, it makes me feel like even more of a failure. After each of my surgeries, it's taken me at least two days to be able to walk any further than to the bathroom in my hospital room. After Emma, I needed pain medication at least once a day for over two weeks, which is very foreign to me, as I rarely take anything for pain. Knowing that some women bounce back better than that just makes the whole thing even more frustrating. (My SIL, for example, was doing situps three weeks after her section!)

I don't really attach my emotions to other people's statements in that I don't think they're trying to say anything offensive or to upset me. I'm aware that my emotions are the issue. But, I do still feel as if my bad experience is being dismissed by the people making the statement. I've known women who've gone into labour _hoping_ that they will require a section, because they don't want to labour at all, so I don't expect everyone to feel the same way about the surgery that I do. I just wish people would understand that I don't necessarily feel the way they do about it, either.

My doctor will do up to four sections with no problem, and could probably be talked into more than that. As I'm now ten years behind on having my babies when I wanted to, and only wanted four to start with, I'm not too concerned about that aspect of things. My husband isn't sure he wants anymore after the one that's under construction, so three may be all there is, anyway. That's another one I'll have a hard time with, but c'est la vie...before Emma, I'd about given up on ever having even a second one.

I know what you mean about some of the women on these boards, but I don't really pay attention to that. When you've had someone in your family spend her entire labour begging the doctors to give her a c-section (she didn't seem to grasp that labour pains hurt), then call you pathetic for having had one after she was able to birth vaginally, the opinions of people you don't know lose some of their power to wound...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Heavenly: I wouldn't say that the c-section I had with my son has "consumed" me for 12 years. There have certainly been many other things going on in my life during that time - my inability to conceive for several years, and my miscarriages certainly "trumped" the fact that my son had been a surgical delivery. When I say I'm not over it, I don't mean that it's consumed my life...just that I can't ever imagine seeing it as anything but a horrible experience. Also, despite knowing that the surgery and my son's existence are linked, I don't feel that emotionally at all. I didn't see him for more than a few seconds (while still out of it from a general) until the next day, and the screaming pain in my stomach and all the rest didn't really seem to have anything to do with his presence in my life. The section was simply a horrible, painful violation of my body and has no emotional connection with my son. My second section (May '03) was a little better that way, because I was conscious. But, that was also the single _creepiest_ experience of my life.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

When someone says that, to me it REALLY seems like a way for _them_ to not have to think about it more than that. For them to leave it at that and not acknowledge that the birth was a compulation of MUCH MUCH more than that "healthy baby". It's THERE easy way out


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

shannon0218 said:


> Ok, Kimberly that you feel such sadness about the experience that brought your child into the world. I so hope that you both will find some peace, I don't have a clue how to suggest you go about finding that peace, but I'm certain you are both wonderful mommies and that you are beating yourselves up--for something you had no control over is sad to me and I really do feel for you--I don't pity you, but I hurt for you that you can't move on and love yourself for the mama you are now and in the future.
> 
> **Thank you. Actually I think I COULD HAVE HAD more control over the situation and the outcome. But I became numbed by the medical "smarts" of it over my own knowledge. And that very fact is what I mostly beat myself up about. I am working very hard at moving on and appreciating the mama I really am.
> 
> ...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Henry's_Mamma*
I think for all of us, at the moment we consented to our c/s, it really seemed like the best decision we could make under the circumstances with all the information we had available at that particular moment.

I never consented to my first section. Looking back, I probably should have looked into the paperwork side of things better than I did. I suspect my hosptial admission contained some kind of rider about "emergency treatment". The last thing I remember before they wheeled me into OR was screaming at my ex that I didn't want a section and this couldn't be happening to me. Since I didn't know much about breech births and the doctors probably weren't able to deliver a breech, anyway, the section was probably inevitable. But, I certainly never consented to it. After labouring quite happily at home for 20+ hours, it was definitely a "twist ending".I desperately wish I had educated myself better about breech babies, but my son was in a great position until I went into labour, and I was also unaware that a breech was always consider cause for a cesarean.

Quote:

Some of us will grieve forever. We are different people with vastly different personas and experiences.
Thank you. This is one of the reasons I've been reading and posting here lately. I don't know anybody in "real life" who even understands that this is something I've grieved about...let alone understands that it doesn't just go away because I have great kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
**I disagree. I knew NOTHING of this community during my pregnancy and for the first year or so of my ds's life! It's finding this very community that has validated me as a woman and a mother and a wife and allowed me consider growing and moving on from that painful time. Reading the posts (on all subjects) by the mama's here at mmc has been quite a growing experiance for me.









I know exactly what you mean! I went searching for a forum where I could talk about this stuff, because this pregnancy has been emotionally brutal. I had no reason to expect my sections with either of my other kids, so the pregnancies themselves were great. But, with this one, I went into it "knowing" I'd have to have another c/s, and it's been awful. This forum helped me find the courage to talk to my OB about a VBA2C, instead of just accepting the surgery. And, even if I do have another of the damed things, I don't think I'll feel quite as much like life just bulldozed me.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, so I think I'm starting to understand this all better. Storm Bride-I gotta say, I'm really glad you found this forum and you're feeling stronger about your ability to advocate for yourself.
I have one more question for you all though








Like I said before, I can understand all the emotions you have when that is said, but the people who are saying it--do they know that you were emotionally traumatized? For instance, when Molly was first born, some lady came up to me in the grocery store, she complimented and said Molly was beautiful, and how old is she? I told her whatever it was-probably less than a week and she said, ohhhh my, I thought she was older--her head is so perfectly round! I respond with "Yes, unfortunately we needed to have a c-section" adn she replied with "at least everybody is healthy and it was so worth it" Now this was just some lil old lady. For all she knew maybe I "needed" a c-section because I somehow thought the recovery would be easier (or however many other excuses people use when they have unnecc sections. She didn't know I had originally wanted a home birth, none of that--now because of that--I can't see taking offence--she doesn't knwo what I wanted--and I'm highly unlikely to stand in the cereal aisle and explain it to her-so from her viewpoint--as not knowing me or my ideals, I feel it's appropriate. Sometimes actually when I say to someone that I had a section (or even worse, wehn I was pregnant and told them I was having a section!) I feel the need to defend myself--I guess thinking right now about it-I have the same fears someone else mentioned-that they will think I'm just stupid, that I didn't know any better-they may figure I won't bond as well because she wasn't born vaginally--so I guess (and yeah, I'm just figuring this out now) I actually DO take comfort in "at least she's healthy, that's all that matters" mainly because I don't feel that comment will be followed with "you mean you didn't even TRY???" or worse (for me anyway) "you know if you'd had a midwife instead of an OB, she'd have been able to get your through a vaginal birth" or, "so you haven't actually given birth, you just had surgery"

Also Storm Bride, don't let stories of good recovery get you down, I strongly believe my lack of pain and quick recovery had to do with measured I requested adn solutions my OB and I came up with together. You've still got time, thats why I was saying earlier-do a plan A and a plan B birth plan so your'e ready adn know which points are most important. I think it helps knowing and accepting to a point what to expect from your section-and to have it done YOUR way. I jsut trusted my doc on pain relief, but OTF has a great surgical birth birth plan that described pain relief in detail.
I so hope you get your VBAC, I really do, but it's worth it to be prepared for worst case scenario just in case.
And thank you as well for helping me understand better where you're coming from. I really do think much of the difference between you and say myself or Kim--I came to terms with it all BEFORE it happened--so for me at least--the event really wasn't remotely traumatic--I'd already done that part--but in a non-urgent and relaxed state-at home talking to my tummy


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Ok, so I think I'm starting to understand this all better. Storm Bride-I gotta say, I'm really glad you found this forum and you're feeling stronger about your ability to advocate for yourself.
I have one more question for you all though








Like I said before, I can understand all the emotions you have when that is said, but the people who are saying it--do they know that you were emotionally traumatized? For instance, when Molly was first born, some lady came up to me in the grocery store, she complimented and said Molly was beautiful, and how old is she? I told her whatever it was-probably less than a week and she said, ohhhh my, I thought she was older--her head is so perfectly round! I respond with "Yes, unfortunately we needed to have a c-section" adn she replied with "at least everybody is healthy and it was so worth it" Now this was just some lil old lady. For all she knew maybe I "needed" a c-section because I somehow thought the recovery would be easier (or however many other excuses people use when they have unnecc sections. She didn't know I had originally wanted a home birth, none of that--now because of that--I can't see taking offence--she doesn't knwo what I wanted--and I'm highly unlikely to stand in the cereal aisle and explain it to her-so from her viewpoint--as not knowing me or my ideals, I feel it's appropriate. Sometimes actually when I say to someone that I had a section (or even worse, wehn I was pregnant and told them I was having a section!) I feel the need to defend myself--I guess thinking right now about it-I have the same fears someone else mentioned-that they will think I'm just stupid, that I didn't know any better-they may figure I won't bond as well because she wasn't born vaginally--so I guess (and yeah, I'm just figuring this out now) I actually DO take comfort in "at least she's healthy, that's all that matters" mainly because I don't feel that comment will be followed with "you mean you didn't even TRY???" or worse (for me anyway) "you know if you'd had a midwife instead of an OB, she'd have been able to get your through a vaginal birth" or, "so you haven't actually given birth, you just had surgery"

Also Storm Bride, don't let stories of good recovery get you down, I strongly believe my lack of pain and quick recovery had to do with measured I requested adn solutions my OB and I came up with together. You've still got time, thats why I was saying earlier-do a plan A and a plan B birth plan so your'e ready adn know which points are most important. I think it helps knowing and accepting to a point what to expect from your section-and to have it done YOUR way. I jsut trusted my doc on pain relief, but OTF has a great surgical birth birth plan that described pain relief in detail.
I so hope you get your VBAC, I really do, but it's worth it to be prepared for worst case scenario just in case.
And thank you as well for helping me understand better where you're coming from. I really do think much of the difference between you and say myself or Kim--I came to terms with it all BEFORE it happened--so for me at least--the event really wasn't remotely traumatic--I'd already done that part--but in a non-urgent and relaxed state-at home talking to my tummy









*you didn't respond to my post so I hope it's okay that I'm answering your respponse to stormbride... but I think that the fact tha tfolks DON'T realize that a victom of csection would be an emotional wreck IS A SOCIETAL PROBLEM. It just shows how acceptable folks think csections are/should be. Just my 2cents.

*Also, I hate it when people ask when he was "born". I know that no on would be able to know that... but the truth is he WASN'T born. He was induced WAY early. He didn't want to come out. My body didn't want to let him out... then he was cut from uterus. There was no birthing going on. The word born in a double-edged sword to me. His first "birthday" was very hard for me. His second... a bit easier.. on March 7th. But, as I sit here on April 10th.... we're still not at his actual due date... the day he should have been "born". ugh. ANyway.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I see what you mean Kimberly, but you also have to accept (well you don't have to accept anything) that for MANY people a c-section IS NOT traumatic. There are many of us who were prepared or even if we weren't simply don't see it that way (Heavenly for instance) So why should the fact that people don't realize that YOU had a traumatic event mean that this is a societal problem.
Honestly, I really find what you're saying about a c-section not being a birth really offensive. My daughter *was* born and she was born the way I want in a beautiful and loving environment. While I may be able to think of a more beautiful birth, I made my birth what I needed it to be and my daughter was in deed born to me.


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I'm really not sure what you found offensive.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear - I didn't mean I found what *you* wrote offensive - just that I found all the people saying to me "well at least you had a healthy baby - why are you upset" offensive.

I'm always really happy to hear about people for whom "I had a healthy baby and that's all that matters" is true.

Sorry for the confusion!!!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I see what you mean Kimberly, but you also have to accept (well you don't have to accept anything) that for MANY people a c-section IS NOT traumatic. There are many of us who were prepared or even if we weren't simply don't see it that way (Heavenly for instance) So why should the fact that people don't realize that YOU had a traumatic event mean that this is a societal problem.
Honestly, I really find what you're saying about a c-section not being a birth really offensive. My daughter *was* born and she was born the way I want in a beautiful and loving environment. While I may be able to think of a more beautiful birth, I made my birth what I needed it to be and my daughter was in deed born to me.


I consider it a "societal" issue because csections SHOULD BE CONSIDERED TRAUMATIC. Not every day. not an "alternative" to an actual birth. They should be considered on emergency basis. YES, women should be prepared and educated on csections, but they're so laxidasical (I'm SURE that's not the correct spelling! LOL) these days... that's why I consider it a societal issue.







There's no pre-counseling for an emergency csection (and there could be... even five minutes of attention on my obs part could have helped me...) and no post counseling either. I sat in the hospital for a month and not one person asked me if I was doing okay emotionally after having my son ripped from my uterus. This is NOT okay.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

But Kimberly have you considered that may not be the case everywhere??? My hospital has a support group for people who've undergone a c-section. My community offers the support of a community nurse once a day once you go home. I was thoroughly councelled on what would be occuring. YOUR experience is not necessary the experience of everyone and therefore why should society have to assume that every mother who gave birth by c-section is pissed about it and still an emotional wreck 2 yrs later. For your own health and happyness you need to take responsibility for you and seek out coucelling or help, it certainly appears that you are still emotionally paralysed by this--and that's NOT right! I spoke to MANY people before having my c-section, many were very well educated, but none as upset as you. That you sat in the hospital a month and nobody worried about your emotional health is the sign of a very lousy hospital-especially since symptoms of PPD I'm sure were blaring.

Women being prepared and educated on c-sections is the responsibility of both the patient AND the woman--that cannot be ignored--I read posts here every day where people mention the "stupid" OB started talking about c-sections and I tuned him out. Yes, it's major surgery and we need to be prepared--I had back surgery too, that was major--should people have not said at least you're ok--afterall--now I'm missing my L5 disc--that played a role in my having HUGE difficulty in pregnancy adn it was an element of why a section was best for me. Is it a societal problem that people didn't recognize adn don't continue to recognize that I'm not happy about having my spine cut open??
I have rhuematiod arthritis, every day I walk around in pain--some days agony--demerol and percocet no longer have much of an effect on me--that's how bad my pain is. My left hand is completely deformed--but you know, I don't expect society as a whole to understand what I am going through. I don't even expect my dh to understand the shear exhaustion. When people tell me to go home and have a warm bath--I don't get all offended because they should know damn well that even if I actually made it into a tub, I'd never be able to safely get up again. Perhaps it should be a societal issue that nobody understands the pain I experience EVERY day. Yeah people make comparisons that blow my mind--they look at my wrist, deformed, crooked, twisted and unable to move without horrid agony and they tell me that yeah, they broke their wrist when they were a kid--and you know, sometimes it still hurts when it rains--and yes, society things that's just hunky dorey.
All I'm saying is that instead of trying to change societal impressions--which you won't do, work instead on maybe changing the hospital policy where you gave birth, perhaps you could spear head a surgical birth support group. Perhaps you could write your OB and tell him that you still feel emotional pain and tell him the things he could have *reasonably* done to make your experience better. Next time you have a child you can make sure that you've educated yourself on what doctors are the best to prevent what happened to you before.

And still, above all, frankly--when I hear "that's what counts" what I get from that is-if you could choose to change the negative by giving up the subject of "that's what counts" would you? If you say no--well then--that is what counts. I'm not saying I don't understand the other emotions of pain and hurt--but those are not emotions that society as a whole is going to understand--why--because your situation is NOT the norm--and that's good, cause it shouldn't be the norm.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Shannon: I'm certainly not trying to downplay the pain of your arthritis. I've only ever seen one or two cases that bad, and I can recall thinking that I can't imagine what it would be like to get through a single day, let alone a whole life, with that much pain. But, I think I understand what edamommy is saying. C-sections are an invasive surgical procedure that our society is now treating as a "better" alternative to birth...more convenient, less painful, etc., etc. I have no problem with women choosing sections because they've assessed their alternatives think that a section is less risky for themselves and/or the baby. But, our culture has gone _way_ beyond that. It's very difficult to be one of the women who have such a bad time with it (and there are many of us) and pick up magazines that contain articles about the "convenient alternative" of given birth surgically. I've actually had one woman comment (with my son) that I was so lucky to have avoided labour (which was an odd comment after I'd laboured for 20+ hours!). I think that's probably part of what edamommy is talking about.

Also, I have to say that I'd never considered that the situation here might not be the case everywhere. This is the first time I'd ever even heard of a c-section support group at a hospital. I certainly didn't stay in the hospital a month (I'd have probably killed myself if I had!!), but there was absolutely no concern about my emotional health. I've been hassled by nurses for taking too long to turn over, I've been badgered about what I'm doing wrong with b/f, even though their "solutions" were almost all impossible for me to achieve with the incision, etc., etc. The entire attitude with both babies was like I'd just had a comparatively easy labour was just being lazy. Most of the people I know who've had sections have had them in that hospital...it's the only one in the region, and their experiences are all quite similar. (Well, except for my SIL who would have just scheduled a section in the first place if they'd have let her, and who also bounced back so fast, she was doing sit-ups in two weeks!)


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
But Kimberly have you considered that may not be the case everywhere??? My hospital has a support group for people who've undergone a c-section. My community offers the support of a community nurse once a day once you go home. I was thoroughly councelled on what would be occuring. YOUR experience is not necessary the experience of everyone and therefore why should society have to assume that every mother who gave birth by c-section is pissed about it and still an emotional wreck 2 yrs later. For your own health and happyness you need to take responsibility for you and seek out coucelling or help, it certainly appears that you are still emotionally paralysed by this--and that's NOT right! I spoke to MANY people before having my c-section, many were very well educated, but none as upset as you. That you sat in the hospital a month and nobody worried about your emotional health is the sign of a very lousy hospital-especially since symptoms of PPD I'm sure were blaring.

Women being prepared and educated on c-sections is the responsibility of both the patient AND the woman--that cannot be ignored--I read posts here every day where people mention the "stupid" OB started talking about c-sections and I tuned him out. Yes, it's major surgery and we need to be prepared--I had back surgery too, that was major--should people have not said at least you're ok--afterall--now I'm missing my L5 disc--that played a role in my having HUGE difficulty in pregnancy adn it was an element of why a section was best for me. Is it a societal problem that people didn't recognize adn don't continue to recognize that I'm not happy about having my spine cut open??
I have rhuematiod arthritis, every day I walk around in pain--some days agony--demerol and percocet no longer have much of an effect on me--that's how bad my pain is. My left hand is completely deformed--but you know, I don't expect society as a whole to understand what I am going through. I don't even expect my dh to understand the shear exhaustion. When people tell me to go home and have a warm bath--I don't get all offended because they should know damn well that even if I actually made it into a tub, I'd never be able to safely get up again. Perhaps it should be a societal issue that nobody understands the pain I experience EVERY day. Yeah people make comparisons that blow my mind--they look at my wrist, deformed, crooked, twisted and unable to move without horrid agony and they tell me that yeah, they broke their wrist when they were a kid--and you know, sometimes it still hurts when it rains--and yes, society things that's just hunky dorey.
All I'm saying is that instead of trying to change societal impressions--which you won't do, work instead on maybe changing the hospital policy where you gave birth, perhaps you could spear head a surgical birth support group. Perhaps you could write your OB and tell him that you still feel emotional pain and tell him the things he could have *reasonably* done to make your experience better. Next time you have a child you can make sure that you've educated yourself on what doctors are the best to prevent what happened to you before.

And still, above all, frankly--when I hear "that's what counts" what I get from that is-if you could choose to change the negative by giving up the subject of "that's what counts" would you? If you say no--well then--that is what counts. I'm not saying I don't understand the other emotions of pain and hurt--but those are not emotions that society as a whole is going to understand--why--because your situation is NOT the norm--and that's good, cause it shouldn't be the norm.


*I knew I was going to have a section about 6 minutes before having one. Guess I should have been more prepared in that 6 minutes... hmmmm

also, just so you're aware... I believe this thread is for csection support.... and it seems like you really don't need any support.







thumbs up to you.

I somehow knew I should not have posted in this thread.


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## tammylc (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Henry's_Mamma*
Honestly, I think we all can agree that the most important thing is that we have our babies in our arms. I don't think a single mama here would say that the perfect birth would be better than a dead or severely compromised child. So in that respect, I think we're all on the same page.

However, I think where we disagree is the role of the birth experience. Some of us placed a HUGE weight on that experience in our minds. For others of us, it wasn't as important. For those for whom it was hugely important, we wanted something specific, and we were probably willing to compromise a little with respect to it, but somehow we ended up in an entirely different place than we expected, and we are now in a position where no one gets what our problem is. Our "problem" is that we are grieving the experience we lost. Some of us grieved quickly. Some of us will grieve forever. We are different people with vastly different personas and experiences. Some of us probably were "violated" during their births far more greatly than others. Some of us might have been betrayed by those we trusted a lot more. Some of us might have just been the victims of bad circumstances. But the best we can do is take each woman where she is at, respect where she has come from, and help her move forward toward a place of healing and acceptance -- at a pace that is respectful of her and her experience. And for some of us, statements like "healthy and alive" are hurtful simply b/c they remind us of what we lost (even though we are simultaneously so happy to have what we have).

I'm not sure if all this babbling has made a lick of sense, so I'll stop now. But ladies, can't we all just get along?

Excellent post, Henry's Mama. Sums up my feelings pretty much exactly.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Shannon: I just noticed your question about whether the people saying "that's what counts" knew that I was emotionally traumatized. In at least two cases that I can recall, my trauma was exactly what I was trying to talk about when I got shot down with "at least the baby is healthy - that's what counts" (in one case it was "that's all that counts"). I think these comments are one of the reasons things have festered for so long. I just stopped talking about it. I didn't talk about the trauma of the surgery - I didn't talk about the emotional pain of unsuccessfully trying to conceive for over three years - I didn't talk about my miscarriages. I just shut up, because people kept dismissing everything I said.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
There's no pre-counseling for an emergency csection (and there could be... even five minutes of attention on my obs part could have helped me...) and no post counseling either. I sat in the hospital for a month and not one person asked me if I was doing okay emotionally after having my son ripped from my uterus. This is NOT okay.

Yup, this isn't ok. I had never thought about pre and post counseling. THat is a good point.

I however don't think that c-sections are a societal norm. I think they are excepted in a way that is unhealthy because of its over use. I agree. It should not be used as a alternative to vaginal birth in women who do not have conditions requiring surgical birth.

Impatience. I think that impatience is the biggest factor. The leading cause for c/b is NOT uterine malformtion. It is NOT healht issues. It isn't een breech babies. Its induciton. Which leads to all sorts of problems that they use for reasonsing for c/b.


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## Junebug (Mar 31, 2005)

Hi, I'm new here. We are currently 7 months pp and slowly working through the issues that came along w/the c/s. Our story is long and sorted, I will post it later. So glad to have stumbled upon this group









Kimberley- I totally get what you're saying about dc "being born". I have been consumed with thoughts of what could have been (her birthday, my labor,etc..).
Her Papa & I referred to c/s as "baby extraction" before we actually had to go that route. Its still difficult for me but its getting better with time. The worst for me is when people suggest that I should just be grateful to have a child at all (I have raging endometriosis). How obnoxious is that?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
*I knew I was going to have a section about 6 minutes before having one. Guess I should have been more prepared in that 6 minutes... hmmmm

I somehow knew I should not have posted in this thread.


SOUnds like we were near the same bost.







I knew about 15 minutes before. As soon as the epidural took hold ew started. I spent over a year depressed over my c/b. I tried tot alk to my dh about it and he gave me the "healthy baby" reason. It sucked. It pissed me off. It still pisses me off. How can anyone act like I didn't miss out on anything.

But in being prepared, I didn't even consider the fact that it might happen to me. I was igorant when it came to what I could ask and what I couldn't ask for. I was ignorant when it came to the drugs they were pushing into my body. I was ignorant for not being prepared. Preparing doesn't mean it will happen and I know some women feel that way. They think that if they prepare for the possibility of a c/b that it will become truth.

You should post here. There is a lot of support going on. DO you think Shannon was this excepting of her c/b when it was presented to her? Do you think anyone just goes, "Yeah, whatever."?

What youa re expressing is what I went through. I don't want to belittle anyone's emoition over their c/b. But Iv'e come to the conclusion that if I remain pissed about it it really warps my sense of now. It changes how I feel about myself and my children. Before I learned to move on I was miserable. There wasn't as much as a day where I didn't cry over my c/b that first year. I mourned hard for my loss. I still do.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I don't think its fair to say someone shouldn't post in the csection support thread because they are not in complete trauma over. Csection support can mean support to overcome your feelings over it or support from people who understand why you are planning another one.

edamommy - I don't want to sound rude when I say this but I really think you need to talk to someone about this. To actually think your son wasn't born, wow, that blows my mind. A child is born when they leave their mother's womb and enter the world. Your son did not come out of your vagina he was helped out of your uterus but surgery. He was born as surely as any other child is born. He came out of your body and took his first breath. You DID give birth and life to your child. I pray for you that someday you will be able to look back on your child's birth with joy instead of pain. The only person you are hurting right now is yourself but I fear your child may be hurt to if he learns of your feelings regarding his birth and the fact that you really don't feel he was born. He may blame himself for the trauma you've gone through for so many years.

That said I think it might be a good idea to have two separate threads. Everyone could still post in either thread but I personally would love a thread for people who are taking control over their c-sections and rejoicing in them. I would love to be able to talk to people who are planning another c-section and excited about it. To talk about birth plans and good experiences. I feel that the needs of someone who needs support because they were so traumatized by it and are determined come hell or high water they will have a VBAC are very different from the needs of someone like me who has overcome my pain of my c-births and will be planning another should I be lucky enough to conceive. Just a thought...


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
I don't think its fair to say someone shouldn't post in the csection support thread because they are not in complete trauma over. Csection support can mean support to overcome your feelings over it or support from people who understand why you are planning another one.

edamommy - I don't want to sound rude when I say this but I really think you need to talk to someone about this. To actually think your son wasn't born, wow, that blows my mind. A child is born when they leave their mother's womb and enter the world. Your son did not come out of your vagina he was helped out of your uterus but surgery. He was born as surely as any other child is born. He came out of your body and took his first breath. You DID give birth and life to your child. I pray for you that someday you will be able to look back on your child's birth with joy instead of pain. The only person you are hurting right now is yourself but I fear your child may be hurt to if he learns of your feelings regarding his birth and the fact that you really don't feel he was born. He may blame himself for the trauma you've gone through for so many years.

That said I think it might be a good idea to have two separate threads. Everyone could still post in either thread but I personally would love a thread for people who are taking control over their c-sections and rejoicing in them. I would love to be able to talk to people who are planning another c-section and excited about it. To talk about birth plans and good experiences. I feel that the needs of someone who needs support because they were so traumatized by it and are determined come hell or high water they will have a VBAC are very different from the needs of someone like me who has overcome my pain of my c-births and will be planning another should I be lucky enough to conceive. Just a thought...

** you do indeed sound rude. But, whatever... that's what I have to deal with, people who have no idea what I feel like and why. BTW-- I have since received counseling... from a counselor who thought I should stop bf'ing and go back to work to "find myself" insteadof focusing on being a mother. Yeah! Also, my ds didn't actually take a first breath... it took 20 minutes to resesitate him and he was on a ventilator for a few days. He was cut out of my uterus 7 weeks before he was even due. He was so NOT BORN!! And THAT is what I need to wrap myself around, accept, and move on from. I grow every day. I'm writing it down.... getting it out.... moving on. I delight in my son every day. He's truly amazing. He and I are like super-heros having survived this! I'm hoping to stay away from this thread from now on and I'm sorry to have entered it and stirred things up as it is. I totally do not find that, a bunch of mamas telling me to "get over it and accept responsiblity for it and move on", supportive at all! I have carried the weight
of responsiblity for it for two + years... and I know that the "get over it and move on part" comes from passing a bit of that weight around to other responsible parties and giving myself more healing and less "responsiblity". anyway....


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I have been reading for the past thirty minutes this thread. Intense stuff.

I want to make this REAL CLEAR. The reason this is called cesarean support thread is for many reasons, all can post here, especially those who are happy about their csection or who have chosen elective csections (there is actually two posters who have chosen this route on mothering but havent posted in a long time that I see). While some of us have experienced trauma, grief over our csections some of us are also comfortable with them as well. (I fall into both categories)

I just want to make it clear, this thread was mainly started so women like myself could come onto the Mothering forum and not be judged or bashed for our choices, or be told "if you would have done this you could have had a vaginal birth." And don't think that hasnt been told to many of us who needed csections through no fault of our own. I personally wanted women who had csections to come and talk about their experience, good or bad, discuss their birthplans for csections to make them more friendly, to discuss planning a csection in future pregnancies (for whatever reason) and to also discuss healing after a csection (whether it be emotional or physical). Not to mention much much more.

I think HenrysMomma posted a wonderful post and I wanted to say a few things that coincide with that. I put pressure on myself to have a natural, vaginal birth before I ever came to Mothering. I was of the belief that if you trust the birth process anyone and eveyone could have a vaginal birth, and that if you didn't have one you were either stupid, ignorant, uninformed, or a wimp. I can throw a few more judgements in there if you like but I am sure they have been read plenty of times and spoke in the NFL/AP community plenty. Even though I had a valid medical reason for my csection I felt like I had failed and my body had failed, I felt like I wasn't worthy of being a mother because I had not given birth to my baby like so many others. I was the only woman in my family to have had a csection, EVER. Then when I got online and came to the NFL/AP communties and met other like minded moms, my shame and judgement on myself increased ten fold. I've been told it all. However I know my uterus better than anyone and I know that unless I have grossly premature babies, a vaginal birth is not going to happen for me. I've been told that it would have been more natural to allow my baby to die and that my baby would have eventually turned and that I could have birthed a transverse breech baby. I was told by lay people I could have a VBAC, however I spoke to midwives all over the country who said they wouldn't touch me with a ten foot pole with my uterus, especially now that it had been cut. I've been sent all kinds of interesting information about bicornuate vaginal deliveries and breech presentation deliveries saying if I had done this, or that, then it would happen for me too. And some people dont care about my increased rupture risk or cord injury risk, etc etc because all I should really care about is how I give birth.

Well let me say this -- I do feel like my children were born. I had a labor of love for months to bring LIVE children into the world. So it didnt happen the most ideal way, however I can make it the most ideal way for *me*. I gave birth to my children, through a six inch hole in my abdominal cavity -- and I am going to do it again. And I am going to make it a beautiful, loving experience. There comes a time when emotionally and spiritually you need to move on, accept what god/goddess/spirit has given you to work with and learn the life lesson from it. Its not good to be bitter, nor is it good to see your child's birthday is a horrible day in your life -- the day you gave life to your precious children.

One of the reasons I like this thread is because hundreds of folks lurk here, and hopefully what is said here will help them understand women, help prepare a doula or midwife should their client transfer, or at least think twice the next time they say something condescending for someone who didn't squeeze a baby out of their vagina for whatever reason. And I know that has happened because I get emails and PMs from doulas and women in the MDC community asking my questions or saying "thanks for what you said, because I remember that info when my client was transferred". They normally don't agree with me, but what was said here benefitted them, and that to me is what counts when we all chat like this.

Later.

Kim


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## Junebug (Mar 31, 2005)

I took control over my c-section but I could never say that I rejoice in it. We planned our c/s in the 25th hour & somehow lucked out with the coolest, most accomodating OB I could ever wish for. The hospital stay was definitely the worst part for me (bitchy formula-pushing nurses). While I am grateful that the option was there when we needed it, I will do everything in my power to avoid another c/s. I'm disappoited by the experience but not bitter...it helps that the result is the most beautiful baby in the world. Next time I will again be planning a home water birth but we will write a c/s birthplan just in case. I guess I would post in both threads?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
II just want to make it clear, this thread was mainly started so women like myself could come onto the Mothering forum and not be judged or bashed for our choices, or be told "if you would have done this you could have had a vaginal birth." And don't think that hasnt been told to many of us who needed csections through no fault of our own. I personally wanted women who had csections to come and talk about their experience, good or bad, discuss their birthplans for csections to make them more friendly, to discuss planning a csection in future pregnancies (for whatever reason) and to also discuss healing after a csection (whether it be emotional or physical). Not to mention much much more.

I'm very grateful that you've posted this thread. I honestly think I've done more healing in the past two or three days than I did in the 12 years before coming here. Of course, the real catalyst for everything was this pregnancy, and being told I'd have to have the section. But, finding this thread has made a huge difference in my ability to cope with everything. Actually, Shannon, in particular, has helped tremendously, because her questions are making me get these feelings out and try to find a different perspetive. Years of having people shut me down and dismiss me certainly didn't do that! I'm still going to try for a VBA2C (depending how things go with my next OB appointment and ultarsound), and I don't think I'll ever be happy about having the sections, but I'm coping better every day. I just hope _this_ baby doesn't decide to do a gymnastics routine at the last minute! (My kids like to turn breech right at the end of the pregnancy.)

I haven't worked out either birth plan (it's a very foreign idea to me) yet, but I'm definitely going to see if I can have my baby with me while in post-op recovery. I think that would make a _huge_ difference in how I cope.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

<<<I'm very grateful that you've posted this thread. I honestly think I've done more healing in the past two or three days than I did in the 12 years before coming here. Of course, the real catalyst for everything was this pregnancy, and being told I'd have to have the section. But, finding this thread has made a huge difference in my ability to cope with everything. Actually, Shannon, in particular, has helped tremendously, because her questions are making me get these feelings out and try to find a different perspetive. Years of having people shut me down and dismiss me certainly didn't do that! I'm still going to try for a VBA2C (depending how things go with my next OB appointment and ultarsound), and I don't think I'll ever be happy about having the sections, but I'm coping better every day. I just hope this baby doesn't decide to do a gymnastics routine at the last minute! (My kids like to turn breech right at the end of the pregnancy.)>>>

Storm I am very glad to see you post this.








i really hope you stick around and that you really get a wonderful birth, no matter how it happens!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

<<you do indeed sound rude. But, whatever... that's what I have to deal with, people who have no idea what I feel like and why. BTW-- I have since received counseling... from a counselor who thought I should stop bf'ing and go back to work to "find myself" insteadof focusing on being a mother. Yeah! Also, my ds didn't actually take a first breath... it took 20 minutes to resesitate him and he was on a ventilator for a few days. He was cut out of my uterus 7 weeks before he was even due. He was so NOT BORN!! And THAT is what I need to wrap myself around, accept, and move on from. I grow every day. I'm writing it down.... getting it out.... moving on. I delight in my son every day. He's truly amazing. He and I are like super-heros having survived this! I'm hoping to stay away from this thread from now on and I'm sorry to have entered it and stirred things up as it is. I totally do not find that, a bunch of mamas telling me to "get over it and accept responsiblity for it and move on", supportive at all! I have carried the weight
of responsiblity for it for two + years... and I know that the "get over it and move on part" comes from passing a bit of that weight around to other responsible parties and giving myself more healing and less "responsiblity". anyway..>>

I know you said you wouldn't come back to this thread but I hope you peek in.

First, I have felt like you have. And yes I got over it. I think that is healthy. To move past the tough situations in our life, the horrors, and try to find meaning and life lessons. For me overcoming my first cesarean was a spiritual journey, not an ego one. You use the term failure in your posts -- that is a personal issue, one placed on you by yourself. You have chosen to wear that term in connection to yourself and your son's birth and that isn't healthy. There is no doubt a therapist would tell you to move on from that. While I don't agree with the quit breastfeeding ang go back to the work idea she had, I think there is a certain sense of finding oneself after a traumatic event.

I can tell by your posts you are angry, I even sense bitterness and only you can work through them. I like another poster, think you need some sort of counseling, only because of the references you have made about your son's birth, not viewing him as being born, and about his birthday. I find that sad, not only you but him.

I don't believe anyone here is saying you should be saying YeeHaaa over your past experience and that you should be happy it happened, if that is what you got from the many posts since your first, I think you should reread them without such defensiveness and anger. I know that I will not be happy with how things happened over 8 years ago at my first surgical birth, what I was happy about is that I did have a healthy baby and that through the years I learned many life lessons from the event that have made me a better person, a better mother.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Storm I am very glad to see you post this.








i really hope you stick around and that you really get a wonderful birth, no matter how it happens!

I think I will. I'm really working to find the point where having the baby at all is a wonderful birth. I'm not there yet, but I think I'm making progress.

Not too long ago, I'd have reacted about like edamommy to the idea that my baby is going to be born, even if it's a c-section. I've violently rejected the idea that a section is a birth...but I'm starting to come around. I've never thought that other women who have c-sections are failures, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put that kind of burden on myself!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Storm Bride, I too am really glad to see you post that--it's hard to know inflection on a computer and I hoped you didn't think that I was in any way belittling your feelings-and I am flattered that you feel my questions may have helped. I too think you will have a great birth--however it happens--you will be prepared, you will know what to ask for--and best of all, if they say something just can't happen that way--you'll know differently









Kimberly, again I agree with OTF and Heavenly, the thing that saddens me most in your posts is the way you talk of your son's "birth" and his birth day being horrible experiences for you. I can't even imagine the burden that places on a child and whether you tell him that straight out ever or if you keep it in--children know. By the sounds of things you and your son both would have died without an emergency c-section--if things were truly emergent, there are a loy of things your OB needs to be doing in that 7 min between when you found out and he makes that cut, have you spoken to him about it? Is there a chance that in the 5 min that would have helped you your son may have died??? You may have died??? There is NO excuse for how you were treated after--just none, but it may just help you if you knew he didn't have time to councel you-not because he was a jerk, but because his only concern at the time was to save your life--it was afterall an emergency. As to your comment that you could not have prepared because you didn't know until 7 min before, I don'y think you actually read what I wrote. We all need to prepare for all the possibilities--thats why I said what I said about it bugging me when I hear other women on these boards say things like "yeah, then the dumb OB started talking about c-sections and I tuned him out." It's wonderful to be all for a vaginal birth, it's even better when you prepare yourself knowing positions to help when one doesn't work, we prepare ourselves for the fact that birth will hurt, we prepare ourselves for the fact that breastfeeding will be hard work, but often we don't prepare ourselves for the possibility that things will go terribly wrong and intervention will be needed. I know infant CPR--not because I expect or want my baby to require it, but because I want to be prepared should that horrible event ever present. So when you ask when could you have prepared?? Well, you could have prepared when you were preparing for your vaginal birth. Kim was talking last week about how midwives need to better prepare their clients for the possibility of transfer--so they'll know what to expect--so they won't be traumatized by the events. This is where society needs to step in--so there isn't such as separation between modern medicine and trusting our bodies, with both ends being so far apart that those at the furthest ends of each art hate and belittle and bash each other. My mother just went through chemo and radiation for breast cancer. Her oncologist referred her to a naturopath at the same time and the 2 worked together to provide my mother with truley state of the art care, truely the best of both worlds.
Kimberly, there is just so much anger in your posts, that I really don't know how to support you, I don't get the impression you want any support, you just want us to agree with you that your son was never born and you were put through a needless, hellish experience. What can we do to support you?? What do you need?? And so you know, I do need support, I come here and read when I leave a post talking about how some woman was stupid and actually made a choice to have a c-section--fact is often people don't know the facts behind that choice--I didn't feel the need to explain to everyone the many reasons that my doctor and I decided that surgery was the safest way to bring my daughter into the world--I don't feel like I should have to defend my choices--so I come here, where I can read that just because I had a c-section doesn't mean I'm a bad mother. I come here to better understand where others are coming from--obviously both Storm Bride and myself are coming away from this conversation each with new understanding of the other's position.

This conversation and your posts though Kimberly do make me think of something I went through--and it's the reason I urge you to perhaps talk to your OB (or whoever did your surgery) I've never spoken of this here and I don't want to be bashed on it, so if you feel you must bash me about it, then please just ignore I said it.
I was engaged 10 yrs ago to the love of my life, I still miss him everyday. One morning he left the house to go to a doctor's appt, he was having horrible headaches and weakness in his one arm. Like a typical man he put off going to the doctor until when that weekend the headaches were so horrible he just couldn't stand it anymore. His doctor sent him immediately to the hospital for some tests. While in their emergency room he lost consciousness. His next of kin was still listed as his father so that's who they called and told him they were airlifting him to a teaching hospital-unfortunately his dad didn't have my cell phone # and my fiance never regained consciousness. I stomped around all day pissed off because he hadn't bothered to call me and let me know how things went--after all I was worried! His cell phone was turned off--something he did often--I figured since his doctor was in his home town that he'd hooked up with some buddies and was in a bar somewhere while I sat around worried. I left work and went and tracked the dog for a good few hours--when I got home there were 14 messages on our machine from his dad telling me what happened. I jumped in the car and I don't even remember the one hour drive to the hospital he was in. When I got there he was just coming out of surgery and the doctors told us his recovery would be long and rough but he was going to be alright. An hour later (he was in a drug induced coma basically but his dad and I were aloud to sit with in the ICU) I noticed his nose bleeding, I looked down at his hand and there was blood leaking from the IV site. His dad went to get the doctors, but I already knew what had happened, he was in something called DIC where your blood stops clotting and you tend to bleed out very quickly and die (in animal medicine it is joked that that acronym means Dead In Cage) There really is nothing that can be done. Because I knew that nothing could be done, I was devastated when the doctors and nurses ran in and started working on him-shoving me out of the way--I just wanted to hold his hand, I knew I was loosing him. They however rushed him back into the OR and worked on him for 90 min. For a full year, I had nightmares, I felt I had failed him, I should have stopped them from doing that to him, I should have made them leave so he could die peacefully with his dad and I. I blamed myself, I felt that with my background--I knew better, I knew that even if they'd managed to "save" him, that since he'd just had brain surgery and was now rapidly bleeding out, he would be a vegatable--and I knew how he felt about that. So I beat myself up, I had nightmares, I even attempted suicide twice. I absolutely COULD NOT move on. In therapy I told my counceller that even when I arrived at car accidents and such--I always made someone hold the victims hand, it was important to me. She encouraged me to write a letter to the hospital, that perhaps if they knew this it would impact even one of the staff who would maybe the treat the next person a bit more gently. The head surgeon who managed his case called me, he apoligized and then he explained to me why what was done was done. Terry was an organ doner, it was something that was extremely important to him. His dad had told the surgeon that before his first surgery--as the first one only ever had a 40% chance of working. Without them rushing him back to the OR, his organs would not have been usable--and he was a young, fit healthy man of average size. His organs went to 7 different people and I KNOW he'd have hated it if I'd insisted on them leaving him with us to die in peace if it meant he couldn't donate his organs. This surgeon then went the extra mile and asked me to tell him about Terry. He said to me that he often doesn't ever get to know his patients but he realized Terry was someone very special. He told me he was sorry that nobody explained why he was taken back in. He also told me that everyone in the ICU had read the letter and it had been circulated with a note that we need to remember that the patients family is often suffering as much as the patient. So I took my anger and hopefully I made a difference--that's why I'm saying, it could be healing to you to write the hospital a well thought out letter, it shouldn't be hatefull and scolding, but it should talk of how violated you felt and still felt, it should talk of the depression you were thrown into that it seemed nobody cared about. Most importantly though, it should detail what they could maybe do better in the future--if you don't tell people what you need, often they can't help you. You say you don't feel supported here, but use a saying my dh using on me when I'm mad--It's hard to hug someone who looks like they're going to tear your head off. I'd like to support you, but I don't know how. I do think though that it has to start with you really wanting to be supported--even by people who may not feel exactly the same as you do.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Shannon...that story was both incredibly depressing and incredibly inspiring. I'm so happy you had the courage to contact the hospital and get some help in coping with your feelings. I can't even imagine how emotionally traumatic that experience must have been. Terry sounds as though he was a very special man.

You know...I'm crying at my computer a lot the last few days...this is good, I think.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Thanks Storm Bride, and by the way, I think you would be an ideal person to spearhead a c-section support group in your area. Today in the grocery store I ran into the nurse that gave me the information on it (I haven't bothered to go) and she told me this group was started 13 yrs ago by a mom who had a traumatic emerg c-section where her son actually did die. Since then it's been "taken over" by 3 other separate people and she said it regularily gets 20 people out to it. They meet once a month and they have a "team" of 10 different mothers who are "on call" to mothers who need help. She told me they even help to organize assisstance for moms who have no help after their surgery, they will get together and make sure meal are supplied and if mom needs a ride somewhere they provide it.
Just a thought, I think you'd be good at it, you are very good at expressing your feelings.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I think this is one of the best cesarean support threads we have had in awhile. Shannon thanks so much for sharing your story, I relate to it in so many ways and its inspiring in a sense that you took your grief and anger and turned it into something positive. Also I find it profound that you also came to see a reason for why the staff did what they did, even thuogh it greatly impacted you. I had a similar experience with my mother the day she died and reading your story it shows me how so many of us in this life have common threads.

I was reading another thread in this forum earlier today. It was discussion on birth options and the only birth options mentioned were vaginal ones. Comments were made about cesarean sections, more or less on how to avoid them and how evil they are and if you "prepare" for one, then you are not trusting the birth process. I had flashbacks to 9-10 years ago when I was preparing for a pregnancy and then became pregnant. I read so much about natural birth, how to cope with pain, and how to avoid a cesarean. As I have mentioned in past threads "I wasn't going to be one of those women" who had a cesarean section. No one in my family had a cesarean birth. I was 9.5lbs and 22in long, 15 days past my mothers due date. She had another vaginal delivery, natural actually that was fairly short of a 7lb baby. My grandmother had two children, she labored over 3 days with my mother before finally giving birth and then nearly ten years later birthed my aunt - a vaginal breech delivery. My great-grandmother had four children at home. My husbands grandmother and mother had all had vaginal deliviers too (MIL last baby was born by csection for cord prolapse, stillbirth) Between his two grandmothers they had 13 homebirths between them that included breech babies and a set of twins. I was pretty confident that I had the perfect body for birthing and that there was no way I would end up with a csection. I even proclaimed at one point (and I have heard this statement in NFL/AP forums before) that I was more than willing to accept if my baby died by refusing to have a csection. I would avoid it at all cost.

I am all for healthy fear. Cesareans are surgery, major abdominal surgery but for the most part they are safe. Yes risks are higher than a vaginal birth, but even they are small, in fact very small. I bought into the whole song and dance that if a baby was born by cesarean that they would be cut, have breathing problems, have bad apgars, not breastfeed, the list goes on and on and on. This doesnt even touch what I thought would happen to me. When I was pregnant with my daughter I would skip over cesarean section stuff, I even skipped the class the hospital offered that talked about them, and I would not entertain an alternative birthplan -- to do these things in my mind at the time would lead me to certain doom and a level of mistrust of my body.
Nothing I can say in this forum or to anyone personally face to face can describe the sense of anguish and devastation when I found out I had a transverse breech baby at the end of my pregnancy. I sobbed. I prayed. I begged. I called a local midwife and did everything she told me to do. I had reflexology. I had gentle massage done on my uterus to get her to turn. I spoke to my daughter asking her to turn.

Looking back, I realize that my anguish and devastation had nothing to do with her. It was about me. My pride for one. My confidence. I took this as personal defeat and failure. I never once at that time thought about what was best for my baby, that possibly she knew something I didn't, that maybe god/goddess was telling me something. It was personal. And still, even when faced with a cesarean birth, I did not do anything to prepare for it. In fact I tried to bargain with my OB, who said she was willing to deliver a buttock breech baby but that my baby was transverse. She said we could wait and see if she presented that way but the bigger she became, the harder that would become. *I* also didn't feel comfortable as a first time mother having a breech delivery. While I had read all about vaginal breech birth, I also was acutely aware of the danger of them and the risk of having a problem in that regard seemed more terrifying than have a cesarean. It was then and only then did I really give thought to my baby and thought about bringing her home. I abandoned the idea "avoid at all costs" and scheduled my csection.

That Monday I arrived at the hospital and instead of having a csection I asked for an ECV. My thoughts weren't on my daughter. It was on my fear of an OR, a fear of failure, and my determination to have a vaginal birth. I never looked at the big picture and I made choices that were based on my own selfishness rather than what was best for my baby. Of course the ECV, attempted three times failed, and I ended up with not just a csection but an emergency one. Unprepared. Frightened. And with no time to mentally accept that within minutes I would have a seven inch cut in my abdomen. I did not have an opportuntiy to say No.

As some of you know, my spinal failed and went into my chest, compromising my breathing and blood pressure. I was told I could not have GA because of this (the spinal being in my chest) and I felt everything. I was given mega amounts of sedatives, phenegran, zofran, and 250mg of demerol plus verset(sp) over the course of 90 minutes. I spent 75-90 minutes in the OR for my first csection. The average csection is 45 minutes, complicated ones an hour. Not only was I strapped to the table like Jesus Christ, but nurses had to lay on top of my legs because I was kicking on the table. Even with an oxygen mask on I screamed and cussed to the point that I was told other patients could hear me. My husband was kicked out of the OR when he questioned the amount of drugs they were putting in my IV -- in fact the anest. said that he would stop giving me drugs "when I stopped screaming".

The last thing I remember was a black orderly type man moving me onto a bed. I was heavily sedated by this time. I was wheeled to a L&D room to recover. Some things I remember are like a dream, and some of my memories I am not sure if they were put there by my husband or by pictures. I did breastfeed in recovery. The lacation consultant held my breast while my husband held my baby to it. I remember asking for my mother and the telephone rant in my recovery room. They say I talked on the phone but I don't recall with whom that was or what I said. Everyone held my baby before I did. Because I was so drugged and couldn't speak for myself, I was ignored. My family was so excited about our arrival and the fact she had red hair, that they didn't notice at times I was exposed from the top down to my waist or that I was bleeding so bad that the blood ran off my bed onto the floor.

Because of the problems with my spinal I had to lay flat on my back for 24hours. I was given ice chips on occassion but was not allowed to eat at all. In fact I was starved for three days before I was given any food. I had mean nurses at night. My ribs were fractured, I had bruises on my belly, on my arms and on my legs. My baby had complications from ABO incompatibility and had terrible jaundice, she was also bruised from the version and csection. She had bruises on her head and on her butt and back. When I wasn't out of my mind my OB proceeded to tell me how lucky I was that I had a healthy baby -- my uterus was deformed, a weird bicornuate, and that it was highly unlikely I would have more children and I would never have vaginal births.

There is so much more to my story than the above. I had PPD severely for nearly 9 months. I thought about ending my life. I did successfully breastfeed my baby however I suffered from PTSD. It took me nearly a year to recover. I had nightmares and panic attacks. When I had trouble getting pregnant and staying pregnant, it was an easy decision for me to adopt a child. I never wanted to experience another csection again. Ever. In this time I researched VBAC, Mullerian Anomalies, and joined ICAN. I am sure others have had better experiences with ICAN but for me it was just a stirring of the pot, more anger, more blame, etc and the "sure you can VBAC if you do x y and z".

I would hope that women listened to their bodies and not focus so much on their own ideals that they dismiss a bigger plan. My hope is that midwives will have open dialogue with their clients about cesarean births, not just to avoid them but that should they get transferred to a hospital that there are things they can request or ask for, barring no emergency situation, if they need a csection or choose one for whatever reason. My hope is that doctors will provide a safer, friendlier enviroment for those of who need, or choose to have cesareans. We should be able to get what we want and have as much contact with our babies as mothers who vaginally give birth. My hope is that doctors will support women who are good candidates for VBAC instead of worrying about their liability. All in all, I think a bridge needs to be built between the OB practices and the midwifer/birthcenter/homebirth practices until there is one, I am afraid its always going to be an us against them mentality or you are wrong and we are right. That doesn't benefit women at all, or their offspring.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Thanks Storm Bride, and by the way, I think you would be an ideal person to spearhead a c-section support group in your area.

Just a thought, I think you'd be good at it, you are very good at expressing your feelings.

err...thanks. I've never thought I was very good at expressing myself, honestly.

I can't imagine myself doing something like that, as I'm really not good in group situations. But, I'd probably consider it if I were staying here...that hospital needs some kind of help! However, my husband and I are moving to Knoxville, TN in August (providing the endless paperwork is complete by then). I'll be here for a few weeks to recuperate, then I'm doing the big road trip with all three kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OTF: I'm so sorry you went through such a delivery, but I'm glad you turned all the aftermath into this thread. Reading all the various things people have been through is definitely putting my "stuff" into perspective. And, it is nice to be reassured that I'm not some kind of cowardly wimp for having the sections. (My sister once told me that I was pathetic for having had one...although it was two years after my son was born, I think that really put the cap on all my emotional trauma - especially as I'd then been trying to conceive for over a year.)

Oops..think my tapping at the keyboard is keeping little Emma awake. Goodnight, all.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Well said OTF. Your first experience sounds so traumatic, but I agree, it's threads like this that hopefully will allow women to A) see that they have options with their c-sections (barring life threatening emergency) and B) that they can know that a c-section does not equate failure, it's an alternative that is sometimes necessary and C) I hope it encourages women to plan for the worst, it doesn't make sense that we don't prepare for the possible "bad" outcome involved in birth. We were seatbelts when we drive--not because we want to be in an accident, but because we believe it's important to be prepared even if this terrible event NEVER occurs. I too heard from someone (they pm'd me when I was trying to decide what I would do) who told me that I should stop thinking about a c-section, I should put it out of my mind and that if I prepared for it, I'd be sure to have one (at this point I was leaning towards giving a vaginal birth a try) Having an escape plan in case of fire doesn't put me at greater risk for having a house fire--it just increases my odds of coming away from it in one piece. It was threads like this that told me it was ok to ask for certain things--although my OB encouraged me to ask for whatever I wanted--she said not to worry and if it's impossible she'll tell me so (and she did







)


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Wow, you don't read a thread for a few days and look what happens...

There's some pretty intense stuff here, some of which I can relate to and some of which I just can't. I wouldn't say that I rejoice in my c-section, but I will say that I was much happier after my section than after my vaginal birth. I read that birth options thread and responded to it in my blog, because I just didn't want the grief of dealing with it here.

I have to say, though, that I understand about the birthday issue. My son's delivery (vaginal, vacuum assisted after 4.5 full days of agonizing labor, culminating in a siezure for me and a week-long NICU stay for him) left me feeling like I'd been run over by a truck, physically, spiritually, and emotionally. The only person who made a comment to me was my FIL, who said, "Well, Rynna, I think you should have exercised more and this whole thing wouldn't have happened. My mom was out in the barn milking cows the day I was born." I gave him a scathing look and said, "Well, not everyone has giant German birthing hips, and I don't think that a man should ever talk to me about labor EVER AGAIN." He started to open his mouth and his wife gave him a nasty look and he stopped. (He did apologize to me later; I told him to never speak of it again, and he never has, tg.) My family was shocked at my son's birth; noone in the family had ever had anything like that, between my grandmother, mother and sister there were nine births and a grand total of about 6.5 hours of labor (conservative estimate; it was probably much less) none of which was as painful as the contractions I had to get terbutaline for before BeanBean was born.

When BeanBean came home, I wanted to celebrate that day. I told Mike that I wanted to celebrate his homecoming, because the actual day of his birth was so horrific. When his first birthday rolled around, I planned a nice party for *me*. I wanted some freaking recognition that one year ago that day I had gone through the worst experience of my life and that I survived it. It wasn't to be; my mom and nieces were in a car crash just a few days before the party. My mother was still hospitalized and my nieces didn't have carseats; the family friend who would have driven them was the one who'd been driving when they had the accident, so he had no car and no glasses. My best friend was told that if he didn't work that day, he'd be fired and my older brother decided that he'd rather spend the day visiting museums with his wife (he hasn't seen BeanBean since he was 8 weeks old, and hasn't seen BooBah ever). I was heartbroken. I was all alone, and I was so depressed. BeanBean had a great time playing with his grandparents and godparents, but I still get upset when I think about it. Nobody cared that I'd gone through hell and made it out alive, and it seemed like noone even cared that "at least I had a healthy little boy." It was awful; it still is.

My section was, for the most part, a very healing experience for me. BooBah was delivered by emergency section due to a prolapsed cord. I knew going into it that there was nothing I could have done to change things. Nobody made BooBah's cord drop below her feet when she turned around, it was just one of those random weird things that happens sometimes. The experience was more relaxed, and *far* less painful than my vaginal delivery. I never got that "run over by a truck" feeling at all, just a bit of burning around my incision and that horrible numbness and creepy tingling. I didn't stay awake nights, crying my eyes out because I'd screwed up, and I didn't have PTSD the way I did after BeanBean's birth. Still, it took me several months to be able to say that she was "born," and it still doesn't sit right with me. I never had any labor with her, so there was no transition period for me; I was literally pregnant one minute and a mother the next. My mind reeled, and I continued to think of myself as pregnant for a while. I can remember looking at BooBah and thinking "how did you get out without my noticing?" I loved touching her and holding her, but she didn't feel like mine at first, and I'm sure that the lack of adjustment time to the idea that she was coming out played a huge role in that.

Her first birthday (delivery day, more like) is coming up. I tend to think of it as her Anniversary, rather than her birthday (c'ette une anniversaire en Francais, n'est pas?) because I still, nearly a year later, don't feel like she was born. I just can't reconcile birth with how she came into the world.







She was delivered from me. I'm okay with that; my son was born, and I think I still attach a fair bit of negativity to the world. BooBah was delivered from me and she delivered me. My c-section actually helped me to recover from the VBFH, more than anything else could.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh and Lisa, I wanted to comment earlier when you said that 2 of the people who told you "that's what matters" when you were trying to express your sadness over the loss of the experience of birth--no that's not cool--that's really quite mean--and I can certainly see why having a couple people say that in that context would put a real bad spin on that phrase. I for one, hate the word discuss :LOL I see discuss as meaning I'm going to get shit for something now. I remember a guy I was dating left a message that we needed to discuss something, by the time he got to my house I was fuming I was so angry--I can look back it now and laugh--this guy so meek that I should have known he'd never be "scolding" ME, but that word gets my back up--all he wanted to "discuss" was which one of us would be driving to a play we were going to that weekend :LOL, poor guy, I tore him apart and he really did mean nothing by it. So, yeah, I get it, it's not so much the phrase itself that is hurtfull and it's very likley it's not the person saying its intentions, but some phrase is tagged with a bad experience for you and you get a mental block on it and can no longer see it the way the person speaking it meant it.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Kimberly, again I agree with OTF and Heavenly, the thing that saddens me most in your posts is the way you talk of your son's "birth" and his birth day being horrible experiences for you. I can't even imagine the burden that places on a child and whether you tell him that straight out ever or if you keep it in--children know. By the sounds of things you and your son both would have died without an emergency c-section--if things were truly emergent, there are a loy of things your OB needs to be doing in that 7 min between when you found out and he makes that cut, have you spoken to him about it? Is there a chance that in the 5 min that would have helped you your son may have died??? You may have died???

****My dh wrote in his "birthing journal" a couple of times a day during my induction and surgery and thereafter. So, my ds will have a well documented description of how it all went down.I don't think it will be a burden for him. Maybe just a bit of a sadness that it happend that way. But, I'm sorry, I cannot find a bit of joy in not seeing my newborn until he was over 48 hours old. About being alone and feeling scared shitless for myself and my child. There will never be a "good feeling" there and to expect me to "get over it" is really rude of you and others! I ask that that be acknowledged. It is not fair to ME or to HIM how it went down. It's the fault of myself for putting my life and his life in the hands of doctors who may not have been correct in their initial assesment or any other assesment thereafter. That was up to me and my dh to second guess and we didn't. We were scared. We were trusting. In the end they had us more prepared to give "birth" to a dead baby over having a live one! Really! That 7 minutes she had to be prepared to do the emergency csection (she wasn't even my ob... she was the ob on call! I never saw my ob after her initial "checking me into the hospital and giving orders to start induction) could have been prevented as my dh and I asked many times during the end of the pregnancy if there was chance of a csection. If we should go lower in altitude to prevent induction/preemie (the answer to that should have been YES... yet they always said NO there's little chance of csection... think positive thoughts.... you'll be fine in the mtns... women have babies every day here... yada yada yada..>). We SHOULD have taken it upon ourselves to be prepared for the worse to happen. BUt I was living the worse (bed rest, fear, etc.) and I think we tried so hard to imagine such an awful outcome. We kept hoping we would get a break and it would end okay... yet we feared the worst and I think that left us numb to do much of anything but wait. [/SIZE]

Kimberly, there is just so much anger in your posts, that I really don't know how to support you, I don't get the impression you want any support, you just want us to agree with you that your son was never born and you were put through a needless, hellish experience. What can we do to support you?? What do you need??

**I need for you to allow me to feel this way instead of telling me to "get help" (I've gotten "help", I work on this daily. I'm reading the silent knife right now and find it very empowering. I've started writing a letter to my "stupid OB" so that she may do better w/ her next patient (or at least show up!) or to "move on" or "to be less angry". I need for you to accept that some women will BE ANGRY FOREVER! And it's well deserved healthy anger. I need you not to lesson my pain for your own comfort. (and when I say "you", I mean society, my peers, my family... anyone). Don't tell me how to feel. Let me feel out loud.

This conversation and your posts though Kimberly do make me think of something I went through--and it's the reason I urge you to perhaps talk to your OB (or whoever did your surgery) I've never spoken of this here and I don't want to be bashed on it, so if you feel you must bash me about it, then please just ignore I said it.
I was engaged 10 yrs ago to the love of my life, I still miss him everyday.

**woulda coulda shoulda. You are right, I do play that game all the time. I'm working on it. I would like the oppertunity to have another baby to put in place all the woulda coulda shoulda's I missed out on the last time around. To prove to myself that I do trust my body. But, my dh isn't nearly at that point yet. He doesn't trust my body not to kill myself or the potential baby. And that's a whole other bag of worms the last pregnancy brought about. Do you see how deep it can run for some women? I'm so sorry you went thru that with your fiance. Tough stuff for sure.







Thank you for sharing. I've had a particularly difficult life. I've got a black cloud for sure. And I'm sure that doesn't help my healing... And it makes me more exhausted when trying to solve and learn from these constant "life lessons".


Anyway. From yesterday afternoon until today I've almost replied to this thread again a dozen times. I've written out and rewritten my "birth story" yet still cannot post it. I've found that I don't remember most of the moments during that 3 days of induction. During the surgery itself and during the recovery w/o my ds or dh and now another mystery to solve. Why do I NOT remember so much? Was my body in shock from the constant pitocin during the day countered by the sleeping drugs and cervedel during the night. No food for 3 days. Was it stress? Was my mind simply trying to protect itself and shut it out? I'm glad my dh DID record everything... anyway... Sorry this is so long and aggravating to you all. Wish I was in a better place with it all. Just so you know, I adore my son. He is my life and my heart. My world would be nothing without him and I'm so lucky to have him. Also, in the end... aside from all the other pregnancy and birth issues... he was sectioned because the cord was doubled around his neck and his leg. Which, I've learned, was probably caused from the stress of induction... etc. ugh.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Kimberly, it sounds like things with your birth for sure could have and should have gone better thats for sure. You're right, you have a right to be angry and you may or may not ever "get over it". I don't think anyone here--and not myself are telling you to "just get over it" I can't however speak for general society. Here we are urging you to talk about it, to get it out and we'd like to help you work through it. Personally I believe your OB owes you an explanation as to why she abandoned you. I can understand how that would feel if you placed your trust in a specific caregiver who then just disappeared and fed you to the wolves (so to speak). If you don't mind me asking why were you induced in the first place, especially so early? Were you pre-eclamptic? If so I'm surprised they tortured you for 3 days before doing the section. I really hope you manage to finish your letter to her and send it. Hopefully she will have you come in to talk about it so she can explain what happened, my guess is that either she has a good excuse (perhaps a death, perhaps she was sick, whatever) or she's very possibly one of those lousy OB's we all hear about. I'm just throwing things out, but it may even help to talk to a completely different OB--when you're ready--this may also help your dh-I'm sorry he's not trusting your body not to hurt another baby-I can't even imagine that pain, if it were me at least I would think having your husband get some help may do more to help you than anything else. It sounds like you are taking all this guilt on yourself.
This is rather discombobulated as I'm doing other things while responding. I hope you can come to feel supported here, there are different stages of support though, if you are still at a certain level where you just don't want to be given any help to work through it, you can put that in your post, that you are just trying to write things out but dont' want any help right now. It's human nature when you see someone expressing such pain and anger to try to help them through it--especially if you yourself are not at that stage any longer. I know in that first year after Terry died I didn't want to hear "you couldn't have changed anything" as it turns out, I really couldn't have changed anything but at the time I felt responsible on so many levels, I felt guilty for being angry that he hadn't called all day. I felt guilty that I wasn't there to support him when he went in to surgery and worst, I felt guilty for NOT stopping doctors from doing something that was actually very necessary and would have been what Terry wanted. I beat myself up for not doing something I didn't have the power to do. When I was ready I started to work it out by talking to people, but before I was ready nobody understood what in retrospect were fairly irrational rantings. The problem was that those rantings frightened people, they were worried about me and I think that may be what you're running into. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be as angry as you are, but expressing that level of anger makes people really worry about you and often the way of attempting to protect you is to try and help you move through it. (by the way, I don't really like the phrase "get over it" because I don't really think we can ever get over a serious trauma-we can however move through them) When you are ready to move through things, then you can find a therapist (cause the one you saw sounds like a dork) it may take a while, for something like this you really need to find someone who clicks with you. Especially with such an incredibly personal issue. Most will provide you a 1/2 hour session for no charge (but you have to ask-they dont' advertise that)

Anyway, I hope you understand that we are not belittling you, we do get it, we may have never had quite the trauma you had (thank God) but we've mostly all been there.
Oh and why you can't remember, I'm guessing that the event was so traumatic that your mind shut down and dissociated from the event. I know that happened to me when Terry died.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Kimberly, it sounds like things with your birth for sure could have and should have gone better thats for sure. You're right, you have a right to be angry and you may or may not ever "get over it". I don't think anyone here--and not myself are telling you to "just get over it" I can't however speak for general society. Here we are urging you to talk about it, to get it out and we'd like to help you work through it. Personally I believe your OB owes you an explanation as to why she abandoned you. I can understand how that would feel if you placed your trust in a specific caregiver who then just disappeared and fed you to the wolves (so to speak). If you don't mind me asking why were you induced in the first place, especially so early? Were you pre-eclamptic?

I was put on bedrest prior to induction because I couldn't keep my amniotic fluids up. (altitude, probably) and my bp was getting higher. At that point we asked if we should leave and go lower in altitude for the remainder of my pregnancy to prevent a premature birth and they said "no"... bedrest will be fine and we can keep him in there until the end. on one of my many ultrasounds thereafter she said my placenta was calcifying and that he should come out NOW. They gave me steroid shots that day (for his lungs) then induced right after. She had said alwasy that I was at 36 weeks then. Once he was removed from me the ob doing the procedure said he was meerly 33 weeks (too young to be born at that altitude....) so he had to be flight for lifed to denver (lower). as his lungs were like "little rocks", even w/ the steroid shots. So, to answer your question.. I was initially induced because of calcified placenta.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Kimberly, this is off topic now (well, not really-it just has nothing to do with c-section) Where you ever tested for clotting disorders?? How sure were you of your dates? Did you think he was 36 w or 33 w (or someone in between) Reason I ask is that a clotting disorder can cause a few things, first and most deadly (to the baby) is calcification and breakdown of the placenta--and yeah, that is an emergency, I read on one thread someone not believing it was emergent and saying the doctor was just full of it, but trust me, hang out on a yahoo clotting group for a week and you will hear endless heartbreaking stories about mamas who lost their babies because of it. Also it causes IUGR, which could be the reason that Baylor looked 33 weeks if he infact may have been 36 weeks. Clotting disorders will also cause high blood pressure issues especially late in pregnancy as it's thought pre-e is a disease of the placenta and clotting disorders cause early breakdown in the placenta. Having some blood work done may put your dh's mind at ease, because while untreated these disorders often cause premature birth, still birth and small babies, with treatment our odds go right back to those of the general population. Just a thought, unfortunately many clotting issues are only being brought into light in the last year or so (someone famous has to die or loose multiple babies-for FVL it was Monica from Friends) Even with this, you will find that you really need to be an advocate for yourself and demand testing and such.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Kimberly, this is off topic now (well, not really-it just has nothing to do with c-section) Where you ever tested for clotting disorders?? How sure were you of your dates? Did you think he was 36 w or 33 w (or someone in between) Reason I ask is that a clotting disorder can cause a few things, first and most deadly (to the baby) is calcification and breakdown of the placenta--and yeah, that is an emergency, I read on one thread someone not believing it was emergent and saying the doctor was just full of it, but trust me, hang out on a yahoo clotting group for a week and you will hear endless heartbreaking stories about mamas who lost their babies because of it. Also it causes IUGR, which could be the reason that Baylor looked 33 weeks if he infact may have been 36 weeks. Clotting disorders will also cause high blood pressure issues especially late in pregnancy as it's thought pre-e is a disease of the placenta and clotting disorders cause early breakdown in the placenta. Having some blood work done may put your dh's mind at ease, because while untreated these disorders often cause premature birth, still birth and small babies, with treatment our odds go right back to those of the general population. Just a thought, unfortunately many clotting issues are only being brought into light in the last year or so (someone famous has to die or loose multiple babies-for FVL it was Monica from Friends) Even with this, you will find that you really need to be an advocate for yourself and demand testing and such.

**I thought I was 33 or 34 weeks... but had been told at my first appt. that I was furhter along than I thought... as far as clotting disorders go. I haven't been tested. I heal fast from regular cuts/scrapes. Although I had a juvenile polyp removed from my colon a few years ago. I ended up losing 3/4 of my blood because the little incision didn't heal right up as expected and I bled out the next day... would this have anything to do with a clotting disorder? could you direct me to a website for information or the names of the clotting disorder or the tests I'd need to take to find out? also, my ob admitted that she wasn't "good" at reading ultrasounds... so in the end... I assume she read the initial one wrong and I was indeed not as far along as SHE thought.
Oh, also... a 5lbs baby is pretty normal for being born in the mountains... Baylor was 4.6lbs....


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy*
That was up to me and my dh to second guess and we didn't. We were scared. We were trusting.

I think maybe this is where a lot of c-section related emotional trauma starts. It's brutal to feel that if you (me/whomever) just knew a little more or was a little less trusting or a little less scared, the whole thing might never have happened.

It sounds as though you are researching and finding out more. Hopefullly, your husband will come to understand that these things do happen and it does _not_ mean you can't have another baby! I had an emergency section in 1993...followed by three miscarriages over the next nine years. I don't think _anybody_ believed that I could have another baby, and I know I'd almost given up. And yet, I have my beautiful miracle baby Emma, and another on the way. Try not to lose faith in yourself completely.

I'd never given any thought to possible complications of having a baby while living at high altitudes. That definitely adds a whole other dimension to the whole thing! Good luck with working through all this. I agree with shannon - "getting over it" isn't the best phrase. I use it myself sometimes, but it's not going to happen. Over time, with perserverance, I think we learn to...integrate...trauma. We work it into our personalities, maybe learn something from it, and adjust to living with the pain. But, that doesn't mean it all just goes away, and we feel great about everything. I think it was OTF who said earlier that you don't have to _ever_ be happy about your experience. I don't know about you, but that actually helped me a lot. It puts things into a different perspective. I can wish it hadn't happened the way it did, and look back without being happy about it...but it doesn't have to cripple me forever. My sections haven't been anything like yours (no induction, etc.), but I do understand the anger and hurt involved. I used to mutter bitter comments to myself while making my son's birthday cakes, because it wasn't "really" his birthday (I find this aspect even worse with the scheduled section, btw) and things like that. And, the fact that everybody else seemed to think I was crazy for feeling that way didn't help. I don't think it's rational...but who ever said feelings have to be rational??


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## Junebug (Mar 31, 2005)

*edamommy*- I'm glad you're back


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Kimberly, I'm sort of working right now, but when I'm done I will look up the sites where I did most of my research. I'll also send a note out to my yahoo group to see if anyone knows if high altitude increases chances of clotting--somewhere in my head I remember reading something about it being a factor. I just don't know what it affects.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, I'm back, I hate it when real life interpheres with MDC!
Kimberly, I posed a question to the clotting group I belong to, basically mentioned the symptoms you had-rising bp, low fluid, calcification of placenta and *possibly* a baby who was small for dates (but that the dates were questionable) and bedrest. I also asked them for links to where you could start some research to see if you think you should be tested. This is what I got back (well these are the ones with the most info, I also received a few saying good luck to you.)

Hi Shannon - I don't know if anyone else posted this yet but here is
some info for your friend: the regular FVL website (which includes
info on other thrombophilias) is http://www.fvleiden.org/ . Another
website, about the causes of pregnancy loss, is
http://www.haveababy.com/rpl/causes.asp?site= (there are other
causes of clotting besides the inherited thrombophilias, namely
APAs); yet another is http://repro-med.net/papers/thromb.php.

If anyone else has info about altitude and clotting I'd love to see
it, though I haven't been able to imagine why there would be a link,
a cause and effect, but I don't know that much about the chain of
events that leads to clotting. Really, I'd love to hear more about
it since I am moving in a few months from near sea level to an
altitude of about 6200 feet, and if all goes well I'll be pg at the
time of the move (though I'll also hopefully be on lovenox).

-Beth









Hi Shannon,
The first hemo I went to after being dxd FVL hetero told me that high altitudes can
increase clotting. This is one of the reasons why flying can be dangerous for women
not on blood thinners, in addition to restricted movement. I had two early m/c
prediagnosis and had taken long overseas flights with both. I'm a bit paranoid and
wouldn't fly during this pregnancy, even though the doctor told me it was okay since
I'm on Lovenox. I'm sorry, I don't know of any sites that explain this clearly, and I
have to leave the house right away. I think your friend should be tested for clotting
disorders on the basis of what she has already experienced. Does she live in a high
altitude area or was she there temporarily? Please tell her our thoughts are with her.
Lael
37 w, 3 days
FVL hetero

I hope this helps a bit, personally I think all women of child bearing age should be tested, especially in light of the fact that they are finding SO many women with FVL (at first it was thought only 3% of the population, now its significantly higher) With much of this it goes back to real life and science not agreeing. I get so angry when I read that a woman's doctor says he won't treat with blood thinners because a woman has not clotted yet even if she has a documented clotting issue--there is a first for everything and pregnancy increases your risks, not to mention, the risk of not treating is the mother loosing a baby--since there is no risk to the baby and only marginal risk to the mother, I think it's really close minded of a doctor to tell a woman "well, we'll treat you if you have another miscarriage or a still birth" Ok, rant over.
I found most of my information at the last link that Beth mentioned. Good luck.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Hi Shannon! Thanks so much for the information. I'm going to find a new OB here soon and I will talk with them about being tested. I'm not sure if I fit the criteria... but it's worth a look. I've never had a miscarriage. I do have polycystic ovaries (cysts were mentioned in some of those studies/reports) and I do have cfs (chronic fatigue syndrome) and cfs is the strangest illness I've ever heard of. It's been like having the symptoms of any disease or condition. These symptoms are so severe that docs will be convinced you have THAT particular condition (like diabetes... one week they would be convinced I was diabetic... next week all symptoms gone... docs hate cfs and are always looking for a more distinguished "diseases" they can actually treat!). So, maybe the cfs caused my body to have the symptoms of FVL while pregnant? I don't know, it's a stretch, but stranger things have happend!


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## caitlinsmom (Jun 10, 2004)

nak

I havent read through most of this thread or the older ones so forgive me if this question has been asked a million times.....

how many sections can u have and still be ok? by ok i mean possible damage to organs from scar tissue, ect.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't know a definite answer to that one. Obviously, even one section causes _some_ damage, or there wouldn't be so much controversy about VBAC and uterine rupture. I've seen case studies online of women who've had as many as 6 sections.

My OB will do four, and seems quite comfortable with that number. I don't think he'd willingly go any higher...although I also don't think he'd turn me away if I were to show up at his office pregnant with a fifth.


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## Junebug (Mar 31, 2005)

My Aunt had 4 and her Dr. told her thats it! She had them all one after the other... I don't know if that had anything to do with it(?)


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I've heard 4 usually but what would happen if you came to them pregnant with a 5th child? I mean, the baby has to come out somehow so obviously they would have to do a section or let you go vaginally. I dont know how many children I will want or how many I can conceive (I have PCOS) but I hate the idea of there being a cap on how many children I am "allowed." I will be trying for # 3 this summer and both of my children were c-births so I will be having a scheduled c-birth if I get pregnant again. It isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination that I may want 4 or 5 children, I'm only turning 26 this summer so I have lots of time. My biggest fear is that they will tell me after 3 that they don't want to do anymore. I don't think I will stop at 3.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, so I checked this out last night because I said to myself the same thing Shawna is saying--if you come in preggers what are they gonna do--tell you it just has to stay in there???
So, here's the deal, if all is looking good and there is no serious scar tissue and especially if you have had no previous abdominal surgeries my ob anyway will do up to 5 on a bikini cut. What she was taught was that anything over 5 should be done with a vertical incision, she said she has no clue how many can be done that way because so far in her career she's only done a "6th" section


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

As I said, I don't think my OB would refuse me as a patient if I were to turn up pregnant with number 5. But, I'm going to be 37 when this one is born (unless is very early), and I've always wanted four, anyway. So, this one isn't an issue for me. If it were, it would be an even better reason, imo, to pursue my VBA2C.

I suspect I'll get a tubal with baby #4...unless my husband decides t get snipped. He might do that, as he knows I've been through a lot on the conception, gestation and delivery front. He's not sure I'd be okay if I had to have a tubal, even if I have had my four babies...just an emotional thing.


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

I'm thinking of getting a tubal, too, if I do end up having a c-section in ... just 7 weeks and counting! I will be 41 this August and I cannot imagine going through another pregnancy. My partner and I have spent only about two months together without either a pregnancy to contend with or a baby. (Our relationship has been 16 months total nonpregnant .... But before you think to yourself how crazy that sounds, I should tell you that we are reunited childhood sweethearts and so we've actually known each other for over 20 years). I am ready to be done with all that. The pregnancies have been very hard for me.

Though, I hate to say it, I'm also wondering if despite these facts I won't regret such a final step. What if? What if?

Does anyone have any thoughts on/experience with tubal ligations? My OB assured me that it will take only about 5 extra minutes, won't complicate recovery (any more than the section surgery already will) or affect anything important like bonding, extra. My main concern, if I get surgery at all, is to make sure that my baby's wellbeing, our bonding issues, breastfeeding relationship, etc. are not affected in any way. I feel pretty good about it in the wake of a potential c-section since I had such a good experience after the birth of my first baby. I just don't want to tempt fate.

I am 99% I never EVER want to be pregnant again. Is that enough?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

My sister had a vaginal delivery, a c-section (twins) & a tubal all in one go. She says that the tubal created more pain with her c-section, but she's really guessing, as it's the only section she's had. However, my mom had three sections (vertical incisions) and a tubal with the last - she says the same thing. Of course, I've also heard there's more pain with the uterus contracting in subsequent pregnancies...maybe that contributes (my sister was _huge_ with the twins, so I wouldn't be surprised if the uterus shrinking was fairly dramatic). I'm afraid I really can't tell you...I'd guess it strongly depends (as does everything in the pregnancy/birth area) on the individual having the procedure done.


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

I have had three c-sections and can't imagine having a 4th.







My third pregancy was very uncomfortable and painful. I am almost 43, but if you want more children go for it. My oldest is 7 and youngest is 20 months plus a mc. I had a tubal with my last and didn't have any complications, discomfort or additional pain. Smooth sailing for me.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I was going to have a tubal. I was told it would take about 45 seconds. Now I just don't feel comfortable doing it. My gut says not to do it. I am considering an IUD so my husband will not get a vasectomy. If I don't get the IUD I think he will get snipped but who knows. From what I have read a tubal should not cause any problems after a csection. I read so much mixed things on them, who knows.

I would like to know about IUDs after a csection. When can you have them inserted and is it painful? I am considering the Mirena.

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

O, and I had my 4D Ultrasound today. It was absolutely incredible. It was nothing like a 2D at all. I am going to try and figure out how to get the pics onto my blog or you can email me and I will send you a clip from our CD if you are interested in seeing Katie Rose.

Katie is breech (frank actually), and you can see my placenta really well in the pictures. She definitely has girl parts.







There was some definite pre-birth bonding going on today in that room. My husband was totally in love. Since this is most likely my last baby (read above) I really wanted to do something special and this was definitely it! Even if you are anti-ultrasound, you would be amazed at what they can see and how defined it is.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Hello all..... I haven't read the thread yet...
But I was 'invited' to come share... so reluctantly & embarassed, here I am







:

_*"Hello. My name is Melissa & I am a C-section survivor"*_









heres the scoop:
Though we _were_ planning a Uc birth here at home...
Gabriel was born at Kawea Delta Hospital









We were in labor from 9am (& water broke at 11am.) till 10pm when we went & caved in & did some pitocin & an Epidural per the _Med_wif'es recomendation. (Baby & I were getting tired) & the Pic was increased regularly. but then by 11 or so He was having bad heart de-cells so they turned off the Pit & then the Epidural cath.

Shutting it off did help a bit... but then my labor slowed WAY down. Ctx (intensity, not frequency) because my body was tired & I think sensed something wasn't right. (I was still only 3cm too)

The on-call surgeon said my midwife should give the pit one more try since the de-cells stopped (as did my Ctx, practically)......

We did & within 10 min. Were prepping for an Emergency C-sec... his heart rate dropped like to 110 & didnt really come back up. so off went everything & away we went......

The anesthestiologist teased me. he said.... "Well..well..well... aren't you the homebirthin' lady?? And aren't you a Doula/ChildBirth teacher??"









I wanted to stick his epidural in his Errr.....nose!









Found out why he had the 'problem':

malpresentation (his head was at a wrong angle)







He actually couldn't fit as he was....


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

OTF, I wonder if they could just place the mirena during your c-section--you know just prior to sewing up?? I mean the IUD is sterile, I'm thinking it would make sense but who knows perhaps there's a reason they can't do it.
I'd love to see your U/S, my email is [email protected]
We had one done with Molly too, but since it was when we found the clot in the cord, I just couldn't relax and enjoy it which was too bad because it really was a cool pic!


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Kim- I'm concidering the Mirena too... come check out the thread in Health & Healing about the IUD.
& btw...It can be inserted at 8 weeks PP after a C-sec.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Melissa, we cross posted, welcome! Congrats on Gabriel, (love the name btw) I'm sorry he didn't come the way you wanted him to.


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

Found out why he had the 'problem':

malpresentation (his head was at a wrong angle)







He actually couldn't fit as he was....[/QUOTE]

This is the reason for my first section too. My dd presented with the side of her face and her neck bent weird. Was your baby bruised? DD's whole side of her head was.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Ms. Doula Welcome to our little thread on Mothering.
Sorry that you had a cocking SOB during your csection for your anest. Ugh. That kind of thing ticks me off.
You mentioned that you were planning a UC, what changed for you?
Also could your Medwife







tell that your baby was malpositioned at all?

Oh, and I saw the pic of your new baby. He is deliciously cute. If you don't mind me asking, how is the pacifier thing going? I really am considering encouraging one with this baby. With this being number 4, I just don't see myself being a human pacifier IYKWIM!


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

today is Willow's 6-month birthday
















i'm still feeling like a train wreck. i think i must have serious adhesion problems, i still can't do most exercises, not even simple isometric tummy tucking. i can't even get my pelvis tucked yoga-style. so i am just uncomfortable all day long! it's even affecting my whole back, not being able to align my pelvis properly. i haven't gained any weight, but my stomach is in the exact same shape it was when i left the hospital, a bubble shape. bleah.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Happy Birthday Willow!
Meli, I still have pain on my left side too, it'll be alright for half the day and then suddenly it will cause me to just double over. So far nobody has been able to say what it may be (other than it could be adhesions) It's very frustrating. I seem to find it even more frustrating now that I may go 3 or 4 days with no pain and then spend a day on the couch.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The "bubble shape" sounds a bit worrying...or did you just mean that you haven't been able to take off the weight?

I found with my second section in 2003 that I had lingering pain for quite a long time. I don't think the pain really went away until Emma was over 6 months old. The pain went away much more quickly with my first section (of course, I was 24, not 34...may have made a difference.)

Good luck with a full recovery soon, mellybean!


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

Hi - I'm Amy. I don't know if any of you have seen my posts in the VBAC forum (the "hostage" threads). I'm posting here because as I try to make this decision, I'm finding myself with uncomfortable thoughts I'd like some feedback on.

If you don't know my situation: Live in Alaska, the only docs who deliver babies will no longer do VBACs, homebirthing is out, my options are repeat c/s or travel (via plane - plane or boat are the only ways out) to some other city to try for the VBAC.

I flip-flop every five seconds - vbac, repeat c/s, vbac, repeat c/s.

I've read through the previous posts (at least 10 pages of them) and some of the positive repeat c/s stories have been very comforting to me. My c/s with my son was not traumatic. My recovery was fairly easy. Looking back, the c/s might have been avoided. But it wasn't, and he's here, and I'm okay and he's okay. (I know the issue of "well at least your child is here and healthy" has been debated, but this is how *I* feel about my situation.)

I have no medical reason, other than the slight risk of u/r, to have a repeat c/s. (Not to dismiss that u/r risk. I'm afraid of that risk. I understand it's low - very low - but if I'm one of the unlucky few, it won't matter what the stats are.) I'm told that I"m a good candidate - though I only had single layer suture, which I've heard puts me at a slightly higher risk, and my age - but overall, I'm a good candidate. HOwever, the fact is that relocating out of town to give birth, though an option, is overwhelming. My problem is I wonder if giving that any weight at all while I"m trying to make this decision is "valid."

What it boils down to is this - I have thought long and hard about leaving town (flying - the only option. Either 2 hours away to a city where we have no family, or 7 hours away to someplace we do...) There is the expense - not welcome but not a barrier either (thought I can imagine knowing the costs we're incurring and the fact that we're out of work will weigh on us.) What might be a barrier is the stress associated with it. The making of the arrangements, the flying with a 2 year old and then a 2 year and a newborn, while I'm recovering from childbirth. Staying someplace that's not home for such a long period of time.

I guess that might really be it - not being home. I want the time immediately after I give birth to be a relaxing time where I'm enjoying my baby, my family, getting adjusted to her, getting her brother adjusted to her... just relaxing and enjoying. NOT worrying about expenses and travel and what's going to happen when we get home and unpacking and is our dog being taken care of and etc etc.

But I feel like it is somehow not justifiable for me to put any weight on this babymoon period - or what I want for the babymoon period - when it means "compromising" an attempt at a VBAC. Intellectually, I know it's my decision and I shouldn't care what anyone thinks. But everything I read here - even on this support thread - makes me feel like it's somehow shameful for me to even be thinking this way.

I struggle with this every day. I desperately want to make a decision and feel peaceful about it. I want to enjoy my last few months of pregnancy, these last few months alone with my son. I want to enjoy the birth of my baby and feel peaceful and happy about how she makes her entrance into this world. I want the whole experience to be joyful for my son and my family as a whole. We live such busy lives - I anxiously await her birth, when time can slow down and we can all focus solely on each other without caring about anything else for awhile. I fear that trying for a VBAC will not allow that to happen. I fear not trying for a VBAC will forever haunt me. I fear if i try for the VBAc and something catastrophic happens, I will regret it forever. I fear that my desire for a VBAC is a bit selfish when I weigh what it will cost my family as a whole, and I at the same time fear that my choosing a repeat c/s given my circumstances is somehow shameful.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Hi Amy, wow, you've got a platefull here!!
I guess what I'm thinking is it depends on what *you* want out of this birth, what is most important to you. For some, yes, that attempt at VBAC stands in front of any other goals and wants.
I really don't think on this thread you will feel like you don't have the "right" to be thinking of anything other than the VBAC attempt. There are a few of us here who chose to have a c-section--even when a vaginal birth was something we could attempt (me for instance)
For myself, I would be inclined to stay home and do my very best to turn the section into a good experience. What I'm putting down next are the reasons I'd do it if I were in your situation--I'm not telling you that you should do it for those reasons.
*What if you go into debt to fly out of town and deal with a doc you don't know and end up not being able to have your VBAC?
*How much earlier will you have to fly out of town--7 hrs is WAY too long a flight if you are close to your EDD--most airlines will not fly you past a certain number of weeks.
*On the flight as well, women in late pregnancy and early post partum are at significantly higher risk for DVT or PE.
*For me, being in a comfortable environment (ie: my home) as soon as posible after the birth was very important.
*At least if you do have a planned c-section, you can try to work with the hospital and doctors to make it a beautiful experience (see Kim's birth plan and my birth story for some ideas of things that can help)
*From what I get out of your post, you are not wanting to attempt VBAC as a way to heal from a traumatic experience. You are already at the point of being ok with how your ds was born--as in you may wish it had been different, but you aren't still hurting because of it.
*Would you have any way of meeting the OB's in these other hospitals before hand to see if you even click with them?? For me, being in a different city, with strange doctors and few or none of the comforts of home surrounding me would be an extremely stressful way to have a baby-especially when there is no guarentee of a vaginal birth.

So, my question is, do you like or trust your OB that you are dealing with now?
And, what do you hope to accomplish with a VBAC attempt?

HTH, you do not have an easy decision to make


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

alaska-









Out of curiosity... why do you say homebirthing is out??
That would be the less stressfull route to go, afterall youd be home with your son, dog, ect. & have MUCH less healing time.....


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Amy,

I have been reading your threads on the VBAC forum, and I believe you have another one on a homebirth forum. I've never commented because I never felt it was the place, but since you decided to pop in, well, heres my .02.

If *I* were in your shoes I would probably do the repeat csection in my homeplace with my own OBs who know me. I would probably plan and do everything to make it a positive experience. My reasoning would be this -- I know you have a toddler, and that would weigh heavily on me. Leaving one of my children just for an attempt at a VBAC seems over indulgent. But that is ME. At one time I may have said something different, but having a vaginal birth is not the end all and be all of my existence. Another thing that would concern me is flying at 36-37-38 weeks gestation. Most airline carriers will not fly you unless you have permission from your OB. I am not sure if you had given thought to this, but I know that we had to have permission to fly with a newborn when we adopted (he was 12 days old) and I do know of women who were refused boarding when they looked like they were about to pop.
On to the next thing, I know on one of your threads, discussion about flying to Seatle or the North East was mentioned. While you could be attended by midwives that do HBAC, do you know these midwives, do you trust them? who are their back up doctors? Have you checked out their facilities where you could be transferred too?
My concern would be, what if you fly out of state, away from your home, your child, and I assume your husband to attempt a VBAC and then have to have a csection anyway. That would be a real pain in the butt. You might not get an ideal csection like someone of us planned, and it might be with providers you know nothing about. I am of the belief, that you are better with the devil you know than the devil you don't know. I can't recall why your son was a csec off the top of my head, but I think you really need to weigh the risk that they may happen again, with the other things I mentioned.
Keep in mind, that if you have a csection out of state, far away from home that it could really affect your recovery. Csections that are unplanned actually do carry more risks than planned ones, and I think that is also something you have to consider since you will be out of state.

I think for you its going to be about what you feel most comfortable with. I know things have been said to you that imply to have a VBAC at whatever cost, to fly away from home and say screw your OB, and I am sure you have read that your risk is low, and blah blah blah. However, as you said in your own words, if you are that small percentage it really doesnt matter does it because it happened to you.

I will be supportive of whatever you do, you have to be at peace and I mean PEACE with your choices. I know that for me it was very important to go with my gut and I went against that and I paid for it. Since then I have made it a point to listen. I think you have to trust your instincts as a woman and a mother, you need to listen to your baby and your body, and you really need to feel comfortable with what you decide and move forward with it. Please keep us updated ---

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
alaska-









Out of curiosity... why do you say homebirthing is out??
That would be the less stressfull route to go, afterall youd be home with your son, dog, ect. & have MUCH less healing time.....









I don't think she has anyone that will attend her. She has a thread called hostage on the VBAC forum and in the homebirth forum. She is really in bad situation.
It is really sad that the climate in the medical establishment is so bad right now. As my sister says it will turn again. In the early to mid 90s, most insurances were refusing to pay for repeat csections. You had to attempt a VBAC unless you had something to back it up that you couldn't delivery vaginally. My SIL who wanted a repeat csection was ticked off. She had had a bad first labor experience and then an emergency csection, so she thought a planned one would be much easier emotionally and physically. She did go to VBAC tho, but it was because she was forced. She doesn't regret VBACing now, (she is a L&D nurse) but she still says that she was angry that she didn't have a choice in her own health care decisions.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Hi gals







Did everyone make up?? :LOL I only caught bits of threads but it looked like it got "fun" in here









I was told that getting a tubal at the same time as a c/b was not a good idea. NOt just for pain but because they are more likely to be faulty. I'm not sure why though.

MsDOula-- Welcome to our group







I think...I never know quite how to say that. Ya know.







: Well, definetely welcome...but I"m







about your c/b...


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## Kiki Runs (Oct 7, 2002)

Just popping in to say that Alaska Airlines doesn't give a crap how pregnant you are, you can fly. They said as long as your doc is okay with it, they're fine with it. Personal experience.

alaska - have you considered UC? I just VBACed UC, basically b/c I was in your situation (well, and b/c I felt drawn to it). Alaska just sucks for women who've had a c/s. In my situation, there was an OB who'd "let me try", but he made it pretty clear that he wouldn't be supportive at all.

Have you tried to find an "underground" midwife who can fly in to you? I know that certified mws can't attend a VBAC at home, but if you don't care about that piece of paper, I believe there are unofficial mws who might be able to help you out.

Sorry to post and run, but DS is demanding some attention - he's VERY two!









Kinsey


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

Hi everyone - I appreciate the replies.... sincerely do.

For those who asked why homebirthing isn't an option: two reasons. One, like Kim said, there is no one in Juneau who will help me have a homebirth. No midwife will take me on as a client. The birth center here can't because they cannot do vbacs by law. The one midwife I've heard of who can do VBACs, won't take on any new VBAC clients. With this recent change in policy, she doesn't want to be the "VBAC" midwife (this is what I"m told. I don't know if that's accurate, but I do know when I called her, she said she could not help me birth, but she'd see me for my prenatal visits.)

I thought about flying someone in - but I do know I ultimately would like to be in the hospital (see the reason below).

The second reason why homebirthing is out: I had an abnormal quad screen for DS - a test I regret ever doing. We had a Level II U/S after the blood work came back. It looked good, but I was told there's still a chance. I feel like I need to be in a setting where my baby can be cared for should it be necessary. If she does have DS, she's at a higher risk for things like heart conditions, etc. I feel like I need to have care available for her right away should she need it.

Shannon & Kim - I did truly appreciate your posts. I haven't checked this thread since I originally posted, but I haven't stopped thinking about the issue. I came to a decision today - and when I read your posts, they mirrored things I've been thinking about.

So the decision - I'm staying home and going forward with the c/s. here's why:
I did find a new ob - she's in the same practice, but I REALLY trust her. She spent over an hour with me last week doing nothing but talking to me about my situation. She also is the one ob the women I've talked to over the last week - including two women I really trust - recommended to me.

I also found a pediatrician who would be totally on board with making a c/s situation much more bearable - meaning, with my son, I didn't get to see him for over an hour, I didn't get to breastfeed him, they immediately took him from me when they were stitching me up. She disagrees with that "approach" and said she sees no reason why she couldn't examine the baby on my chest, why I shouldn't be allowed to breastfeed immediately, and why the baby shouldn't be with me in recovery.

I hadn't thought about it in quite the same context as it was put in your replies - but your point about being with doctor or doula or midwife I don't know doesn't sound like a good choice.

But the most compelling reason for my decision...
After really thinking about, I'm not willing to give up or compromise the time after the birth for the birth itself. The time I'm going to be home with my family is more important to me than how I birth. Today my son had a hard time falling asleep - he wanted me to hold him, so I did. And as I looked at him it struck me that I really didn't care how he got here - I love him so much.
And I looked at my husband and said the same thing - I don't care how she gets here, I just want her here.

my son is not feeling well - I have to go - but thank you -
I'm going to look at the birth plans and stories - start thinking about how I can make my next c/s the most rewarding experience I can. I might have questions









amy


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Amy,

Thanks for coming back and sharing your decision with us. I think you are courageous! It sounds like you have found a great OB that is willing to make this is a really great experience for you and your baby. I hope you can find some things useful from our birthplans and please feel free to ask questions!
I believe you have made the right decision for you and your family, don't be discouraged by naysayers, you know what's best for you. I will be praying you have a HEALTHY baby and the best birth experience you can.

Welcome!

Kim


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Amy, I'm glad you've found an option that seems to be right for you. This post sounds so much more peaceful than the last. I too went back and forth SO much regarding my c-section--mine was even my first birth so there wasn't even that excuse to use (mainly here) that I wasn't allowed to VBAC. I was so stressed about everything, part of me thought that I couldn't possibly be a good mother if I was willing to not even _try_ to give birth vaginally.
Part of it for me was I just LOVE my OB, I honestly feel that Molly would never have been here without her. She'd have been that last miscarriage that would have put me over the edge. She'd taken such good care of me all through the pregnancy and I had this horrible fear that I'd go into labor and she wouldn't be available--even though she'd told me she would attend me whether she was on call or not (she'd worked to damn hard on our case to miss out on the big day







) I had this fear that she'd be out of town, or sick, or wouldn't have someone to take care of her ds. Mostly though I was so afraid of the fact that my chances for a successful vaginal birth were so small and I'd heard so many stories about the trauma of a failed vaginal birth followed by an emergency c-section. Like Kim said, I was so much more comfortable with the devil I knew. I'm the ultimate control freak and I just hate not being in control.
Like you, once I made my decision, I felt so much better about it than I had while trying to decide, I set about making plans for the best damn c-section in history. (With the exception of having felt everything, I pretty much succeeded







)

Ask all the questions you want to! We'll do our best to answer them


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Amy,

I'm so glad you found a decision you are at peace with. Upon further reflection, and after reading all of your subsequent posts, I think I would make the same decision. I KNOW the women on this thread will help you make a great birth plan to discuss with your OB, ped., and the hospital (they have their own nuances), and you will have a birth that is healing, positive, and peaceful. And we will all be wishing you and your baby health and quick healing.

Keep us posted on your journey. It really helps the rest of us with our own journeys.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Okay, why is everyone so quiet?

Things are going smoothly here. I will be 30 weeks in just a few days. Its hard to believe I am in the home stretch.

I am working on updating my cesarean birthplan. I feel like I am forgeting something though.

Kim


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I was wondering the same thing Kim! We've been busy here, I'm not feeling well and we ended up putting Molly on Zantac for her reflux--now I feel guilty because it's now obvious she was in pain before as her screaching episodes that used to happen 4 or 5 times a day have not happened at all since. Makes me sad, I know how bad reflux hurts.









Amy and Lisa, I hope your c-section plans are coming together and your doctors are working with you to make them special. Kim, glad all is well in your corner too--you're getting so close!!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I'm doing good. I jsut don't have anything to add. I'm jsut trying to lose some weight and concentrate on NOT getting pg before dh has his tests and is given the all clear. We are almost 2 months post vasectomy


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't got much down about my plan yet...I don't have another appointment with my GP until May 11th, and don't see the OB again until June 1st. So, I'm going to take my draft with me to the GP and talk to her about the hospital policies. She and the OB both have hospital privileges there, so they know how things are usually done.

As far as my c-section goes, there are only two changes I want to make to the way it went last time. If there's any possible way to do it, I want my new baby with me after the surgery!! That's my number one priority if it goes to section. I also want to try to arrange to have the section done after I go into labour, instead of just checking into the hospital for a scheduled one. I'm hoping I'll have less trouble with my milk if I do it that way.

I'm mostly having trouble with my preferences in case I get the VBA2C, actually. I think the monitoring requirements are going to be a battlefield.









But, I'm actually doing pretty well. That intense burst of posts on here a couple weeks back or whenever it was seems to have helped me quite a lot.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I think sometimes we have to give a little to get a lot in the case for trying for a VBAC in a hospital setting. Try to think about before hand what you are willing to make concessions on and focus on the big picture. I've come to realize that if you approach working with your OB hand in hand, that they are more likely to give a little.

Kim


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Hi All... I finally requested and received our medical records from my OB and from the hospital. Okay, I really put it off as myds is 2! But, there was a lot of negativity and I was scared to read the chart.

I was unhappy w/ my dh's reaction. He said "why did you order that?", "why would you want to reread that shi#", "Wasn't doing ti once enough?". But, that's another story. He really devaluated (is that a word?) my feelings and my need to "get to the bottom" of the whole cs experiance. My need to understand what went wrong.

That aside...

The chart was full of errounious information. It stated "child circumsized at parents' request before being transported to Denver" (uhhhhh we were totally anti-circ... he's uncut! plus he was on a respirator to breathe... and it was a flight-for-life transport... why would they even do a circ during that vital time??). Also, I was admitted on the 5th of March... and pitocin was started immediatly. In the evenings they stopped the pitocin and started the cervedel... every three hours all night... then started pitocin again at 8am each morning. My dh kept an indepth journal so I KNOW what went on. Yet in the file it says simply that I was admitted on the 5th and that on the 7th they started pitocin... leading to my sons' heart rate dropping and an emergency csection... HELLOOOOOOOO what about the two days of drugging I endured prior to that? Those days were the most hellish for me and they were not even mentioned or noted?!?! Is that normal? Also, it wasn't mentioned how sick I was during and in recovery... wouldn't that be important to note in case I ever had to have anesthesia again??? Anyway, the file really just upset me more... and maybe I shouldn't have read it... Also... after he was cut out of me the pediatrician said.. "this isn't a 36 weeker... this is a 33 or 34 weeker" and she noted it in her records... but the hospital file says only 36 weeks... over and over and over. anyway... I'm not sure if rewading it was helpful in my healing or not. ANyone else read their charts as part of healing and/or closure?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Ok, I have not read my charts...even though I really want to.

Just from reading what you quoted my heart is racing, I have a frown on my face, and I'm pissed!

Yes, your chart is supposed to be COMPLETELY accurate. They have to note everything they do in order to have "Evidence" if they get sued. Either they were complete morons (which it sounds like they were) OR your chart was edited to protect the hospitals ass.

No wonder you are hacked off. I have never heard of doing pit during the day and cervadil during thenight. Actually, it sounds VERY dangerous, and evidently it was.

I think that this WILL help you heal. I think now you have something to direct your energy and anger toward.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Wow Kimberly, I agree with Megan, I think this will help you heal for a couple reasons. Firstly--yeah, your case was screwed up royally--this was NOT YOUR FAULT. To me that says there is no reason you can't do it your way the next time (unless you are not permitted a VBAC) Also like Megan said, pit during the day, cervadil at night??? I mean what is that about?? I'm guessing they just didn't want you to have the baby at night! Myself personally, I would take your records and your husbands journal and make an appt to speak with the OB who was in charge of your care, or the hospital's patient advocate or maybe even the OB who did your section. (if I remember correctly she was not your OB) Did you like the one who did the section-I mean I know you wouldn't have wanted the section done, but if you look at it from the perspective of the OB in charge of your case (not her) dicked around until baby and mom were in trouble--the OB who did your section probably didn't have much choice in the matter. If nothing else, I would definitely take the records and your husbands journal into the new OB you choose, talk to her and ask her exactly what could/should have been done differently.
I'm really sorry they falsified your records. That sucks, perhaps you need to begin some disiplinary action against them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I agree with Shannon that you should talk to the original OB/OBs (your regular one, and the one who did the section) with copies of your records and your dh's journal in hand. That is absolutely outrageous!! And, they can't claim that you're nuts or your husband's journal is inaccurate, so don't worry about that. The fact that your little boy has an intact foreskin while the records clearly state that he was circumsized proves that your record is false!

If you don't feel like doing that, I definitely agree that you should take the records and the journal to any first meeting with a prospective new OB. They need to be aware of your history, and if they don't take your concerns seriously, find another one!

With respet to your dh...I suspect he doesn't realize you need to work through some of this and is afraid that seeing the records and such are just going to make you feel worse. Some people don't seem to realize that some of us need to talk/work through things and that avoiding talking about the things that upset us makes the situation worse, not better. I hope he comes around and understands that you need to do this.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I think sometimes we have to give a little to get a lot in the case for trying for a VBAC in a hospital setting. Try to think about before hand what you are willing to make concessions on and focus on the big picture. I've come to realize that if you approach working with your OB hand in hand, that they are more likely to give a little.

Kim

I agree completely. I don't want to be too rigid, but I can see the monitoring requirement making my labour a lot harder than it has to be. I remember when I was labouring with my son...I constantly moved around, and couldn't stand having to stay still for any length of time. I've heard and read a _lot_ about how much CFM limits your movement, but I don't think they'll attempt a VBAC without it.

Well..I'm not going to get stressed about it. I don't need the stress...baby-under-construction doesn't need the stress - and I can't address this until I see my doctor, anyway!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I'm not sure how your insurance works but you can also notify them of the errors. They have been charged for things you didn't get...like the circ. Those are like 350.

My FIL did this after my SIL was born. THey were strictly self pay. So, he went to the hospital and demnded he get his gauze and meds they claimed they use and such....the hospital took the chgs off and refunded his money.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I constantly moved around, and couldn't stand having to stay still for any length of time. I've heard and read a _lot_ about how much CFM limits your movement, but I don't think they'll attempt a VBAC without it.

You will have limited movement with constant monitoring. Also, some hospitals have wireless monitoring. I'd ask about it


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Can I join? I haven't beehere in awhile. I read alot of the posts, not quite all.









I am actually finally feeling somewhat normal at 10 months postpartum. It is so strange, when so many women seem to "bounce back" BUt only for the past few months has pilates not hurt like crazy for me, and the pain in my lower back keeps lessening. I think both times(I've had 2 sections, 19 months apart) my back was somewhat hurt from the spinal. My back isn't 100 percent yet, but getting stronger all the time. I still have some weight to lose, and a little pouch, but I am getting in better shape steadily









Someone was asking about how many c-sections are safe?
My O.B.( who REALLY WAS wonderful- I know, VERY rare)told me, after surgery,me still on the table- that he thought I could have at least 2 more c-sections and still be healthy and strong after. Because he was very concerned for me since I told him having a second surgery might seriously skew my thoughts of having more children, which I want to do. So, I don't know if that helps. I think if next time I prepare my body evn more and especially after than I could have one or two more. we definitely want a third child.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I am curious, how many here have read books by Henci Goer, and the other author, um , can't think of her right now- but she wrote a book about VBACs?
I have read many of Henci's books and some others and even though I wasnot able to birth vaginally they realy armed me with knowledge and helped my experience


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I agree completely. I don't want to be too rigid, but I can see the monitoring requirement making my labour a lot harder than it has to be. I remember when I was labouring with my son...I constantly moved around, and couldn't stand having to stay still for any length of time. I've heard and read a _lot_ about how much CFM limits your movement, but I don't think they'll attempt a VBAC without it.

Well..I'm not going to get stressed about it. I don't need the stress...baby-under-construction doesn't need the stress - and I can't address this until I see my doctor, anyway!

See if you could do monitoring 20min an hour. There is no reason they couldn't get a good strip on you that way. Then agree to having them check with a doppler maybe once or twice an hour after that.
Also, ask if they have the monitor that you can walk with. They have those now, not sure how great they are but it might could be an option.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Kimberly,

Yes, your records are to be complete. Mine where half ass. I did read mine in prep for my last csection. I didn't go over them with my OB at the time but one of her partners who was "green". I told her that some of what was written was BS and inaccurate. Then there was this line in there, it was vague and it said something about my pain level in the OR -- when I asked the green OB what it meant she said "O that means you didn't die and were able to tolerate the pain." Lovely. I told her that sure was a nice way to put something when you are in excruciating pain due to the failing spinal. Also there was nothing noted in there about the spinal not working properly, it made a comment about the block not being dense enough, but made it sound like it worked. There was comments about me needing oxygen, about my BP and the list of drugs they gave me. The green OB was FLOORED that I had so many drugs -- my OB at the time, who read my report later never really commented but assured me I would have to be near death before she would allow one of her patients to be that drugged.
They did note my uterine deformity, that I had an ECV that led to an "urgent surgery" and that I had a baby in distress and that my bag of waters was full of meconium.

I think its wise to read past OR records. Most the time there are blatant lies and misinformation. It took me five years to read mine though, so I can understand any hesitation in doing so.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
See if you could do monitoring 20min an hour. There is no reason they couldn't get a good strip on you that way. Then agree to having them check with a doppler maybe once or twice an hour after that.
Also, ask if they have the monitor that you can walk with. They have those now, not sure how great they are but it might could be an option.

I'll look into that. I'm still going to have to wait to see what the OB thinks about my next u/s before I know what's going to happen, anyway. I may not be attempting the VBA2C at all, but I'm still hoping. Let's see if this baby decides to be a last-minute acrobat, as well. My babies love to be breech...and they won't try a VBAC with a breech baby.

And, I'll try to get the more intermittent monitoring if I can. I remember my labour well enough to know that I _need_ to be able to move!!


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## prophetmother (May 27, 2004)

I went into labor Tuesday at 2 am and had to have a c-section Wednesday because the baby wouldn't drop far enough and I had been 8 cm for 6 hours. I'm so sad, I can't even say anymore right now. I'm glad this thread is here, don't know when I'll be ready to read it all. I can't stop crying sometimes.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prophetmother*
I went into labor Tuesday at 2 am and had to have a c-section Wednesday because the baby wouldn't drop far enough and I had been 8 cm for 6 hours. I'm so sad, I can't even say anymore right now. I'm glad this thread is here, don't know when I'll be ready to read it all. I can't stop crying sometimes.









Oh mama, I'm so sorry you're having a rough time of it. Is your little blessing well? Are you healing physically? You will! Please come back for support.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prophetmother*
I went into labor Tuesday at 2 am and had to have a c-section Wednesday because the baby wouldn't drop far enough and I had been 8 cm for 6 hours. I'm so sad, I can't even say anymore right now. I'm glad this thread is here, don't know when I'll be ready to read it all. I can't stop crying sometimes.









I am so sorry.

Welcome to your little girl.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Welcome Zoe and her mom! I'm sorry your birth wasn't everything you wanted it to be. Please read and post when you feel comfortable.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm so sorry you had such a disappointment. Welcome to the thread...these ladies have helped me a lot.


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

Storm Bride (or anyone with info...) is there a problem with BF after C/S? The only info I can find is that the stress of the section may interfere, or the time mom and baby are separated. ARe there physical problems (besides the incision site... I mean with milk production?) This has me worried. I'm trying to remain calm and peaceful with my decision, but every time I think about it, I still get angry.

Kimberly - I agree with the above posters - I hope you speak to someone - whomever you are comfortable with - about the discrepancies in your records. I would not let that slide.

Tori - I'm sorry for your disappointment. Congratulations on your new babe.

amy


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Amy, I was unable to breast feed for reasons unrelated to my section but I did try so I did research this aspect. The biggest issue is if you have a general because you are separated from your baby for quite a long time. If you try to have all your pain relievers via your epidural then there are really no issues--otherwise you could have an issue with a sleepy baby. There are specific breast feeding holds that are better for mom's with a section and make sure you bring a nursing pillow into hospital with you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

My d/d just hit the back button and cleared my post about two words from the end. Toddlers...

Okay - let's try again.

My son was an emergency section, following 20+ hours of labour. I had problems b/f (cracked nipples, bleeding, etc.), but they were latch difficulties, and had nothing to do with my more than ample milk production.

My daughter was a scheduled c-section after she turned breech at 39 weeks. I had not gone into labour yet, and I did have some problems with milk production. The first couple of days were a bit rough, as she seemed to be soooo hungry. But, by the time I left hospital, my milk was coming in just fine, and everything was okay. I persisted in offering the breast as often as possible, and her suckling seemed to get the milk going - it just took a little longer than I'd have liked. The separation - about 75 minutes - after the surgery probably didn't help. (I will admit that d/h and I resorted to single formula feeding in hospital...very small amount to get her calmed down enough to nurse - she was nuts!!) D/D was exclusively b/f to about 5 months, and self-weaned at 21 months...so things worked out just great in the end!

If my intended VBA2C doesn't work out and it goes to a planned section, I'm going to talk to my OB about possibly waiting until I go into labour to go to the hospital. I really think my milk would come in more easily if my body was expecting to have the baby!! On the other hand, if I do have a scheduled section, I'm much more emotionally prepared this time. I don't think it will be too bad. There's no way around the fact that the first couple of days after a section are...hellish (maybe others wouldn't put it so strongly, but that's how I feel), but the b/f will work out.

Try to keep your baby with you during recovery - mine have been separated from me both times (I had a general with d/s), but I'm going to try to change that this time. And, just keep offering the breast...from my experiences, I'd say persistence is the key.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh I forgot the advice my lactation consultant gave me before Molly was born. We were assuming I would not produce any milk but we were trying to maximize the chances I'd at least produce a tiny bit.
She told me because my section was planned to use lots of nipple stimulation and ideally a pump for at least a week before your section is scheduled. Because I was in hospital for 10 days prior to my section I was using a hospital pump 3x a day for a week before (didn't help me, but as I said it was pretty much a guarentee I wouldn't produce)


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

Congratulations on your new baby, Prophet! I hope you will heal very fast.

Re: the b/f after c-section discussion, I wanted to say that I had an emergency section after 42 hours of labor. I went into labor at night (after walking around in the heat all day, showing my sister the town while having prelabor contractions - she had just arrived to be on hand for my homebirth). So I was exhausted and starving by the time I got to hold my baby for the first time. That was in Recovery. I guess we were separated about 45 minutes while my DP went with him to the Nursury to get checked out and I was stitched up. DP showed me the baby before he left but I didn't remember it because of the narcotics/relaxants they had given me (which I would *DEFINITELY* refuse the second time - I want to be lucid rather than loopy when I meet my baby for the first time).

Anyway, our nursing relationship had every reason in the world to be in jeopardy from the start, really, but it was OK in the end.

It was worrisome that my milk didn't come in for 5 days - though more so for the hospital staff and the pediatrician than for me. I felt, I KNEW, that my baby was OK, would be OK. He couldn't latch too well at first, mostly because he was soooo sleepy and because he had injested a good amount of meconium. I did pump colostrum while at the hospital to give to him via syringe. We kept waking him to feed him, but he just wasn't too interested. Finally, on the day my milk came in (which happened without my even feeling it), he latched on with a vengeance and ended up gaining back his birth weight in record time. We had an excellent, smooth, minimal-problem nursing relationship for 17 months (at which point - when I was 4 months pregnant - he self-weaned).

Just my story. I know that problems can ensue, particularly from the initial mother/baby separation and the many drugs involved in surgery, but FTR that was not my experience.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

after my emergency csection Bay was airlifted to Denver. So, I didn't see him at all for 3days. The cards were stacked against me nursing him but we stuck to our "no nipples, no aim" rules. He had donor milk. He latched on within moments of meeting me... 3 days later!


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## wenat (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alaska*
Storm Bride (or anyone with info...) is there a problem with BF after C/S?


I had an emergency c/s with DS#1, and once my milk came in (3 days later), I had massive oversupply issues which didn't settle down for 4-5 MONTHS!

And my best friend had a vaginal birth, but couldn't BF. Her DD lost weight for a couple of weeks and they ended up formula feeding when she gave up BF'ing.

So I guess it's just up to the individual mom's boobs and determination to BF. (I think that my friend gave up too easily, but she had to go back to work after 6 weeks, where I had a year of maternity leave to get things sorted out.)


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

thanks for the reassurance everyone (again







)
I was worried that there was something hormonal about the start of labor that triggered milk production - I had no problems with my DS after my first c/s, but I'd gone into labor on my own.

I'll talk to our local lactation consultant, too, see if she has any suggestions.


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## wenat (Apr 17, 2004)

I think the hormones are triggered once the baby is out. My sister-in-law "delivered" (or rather, lost) her first baby at 24 weeks, and pumped enough to fill the hospital mini-fridge in the week that he lived.

I suspect the lactation consultant will tell you to pump regularly for the nipple stimulation. I'm definitely bringing my little Avent Isis into the hospital with me. If I can get some colostrum out early, then the babe can be dropper-fed if I can't have him in recovery with me.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

The dettaching of the placenta from the uterine wall releases hormones that initiate bfing. It is further stimulated by actually nursing a baby. So get baby to the breast early and often.

I labored for 22 hours, w/my c/s at 8:00pm on a Monday evening. My milk came in on Saturday/Sunday. Ds would not latch that whole week (I blame the 4 hour post-birth separation), so I pumped every 3 hours and bottle







: fed him, first with whatever colustrum I got, then with formula to fill him up







:. Thankfully, we had no nipple confusion issues. I think this was just me, though. I'm hoping that regardless of what happens next time (VBAC or r/c/s), my milk will come in earlier as I hated that darn pump!


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## caitlinsmom (Jun 10, 2004)

okay I have had 6 weeks to think about ds birth.....I think I may have come to terms with it, and actually and pretty pleased. wow never thought I would say that! This is why.

The hospital staff was amazing. I went into it completly hostile and angry (not the best frame of mind) and they put up with everything.

I didnt think that my cathater was in right and instead of telling me it was they actually checked and fixed it (it wasnt in at all).

I was told that it would be 3 hours before I could see ds since I would have to go to recovery. I was also told if his sugar level was too low they would give him formula or sugar water (finger method).......well as soon as I was out of the OR here come ds with low sugar and they actually let me put him to breast! I held him within 30 min of birth.

He was never taken away from me.

I declined eye drops and hep b and they were fine with it.

I declined an IV, pain drugs, and cathater (except IB Prophin) within hours of delivery. once again ok.

hospital proceedure is a c-sec stays 3 days at least, no food for the first 18 hrs afterward, no walking for 24 hrs. I stayed 30 hours total, had food 2 hours after birth and walked 5 hours afterward.

overall the experiance could have been a lot worse. i am still angry that i wasnt allowed to vbac, but at least i have accepted the birth. I still will be taking a doula course and plan on helping educate the community on ways to prevent unnecassary sections, but only because i think it is important, bot because of anger.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Kimberly, good for you on breast feeding against the odds, that's wonderful that he latched right away when you finally got him in your arms (see, someone was looking out for you guys at least a bit







)
Kim, good for you on coming to terms with your emerg section. I remember parts of your original post and I remember you were angry. It does sound though like the staff really went to bat for you--a nurse that will thumb her nose at the rules is worth her weight in gold







And good luck with your doula endevours, I think not only that you will help to prevent unneeded sections, but also assist a mom who does need a section to deal with it and make it work for her as best as possible.


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## caitlinsmom (Jun 10, 2004)

I am hoping that as time goes by and I am able to fully accept it then I will be that much more of a help to another mom. dealing with the pain of an unneeded secction is horrible. at least now I will be able to sympathise with someone else and help her come to terms with it.


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm happy for you, Kim. I hope you continue to find peace the birth, and good luck with your future endeavors!
amy


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

who do you contact to read your charts? the OB or the L&D dept.? i'd be fascinated to read mine, and to correct any errors. it was an "interesting" labor at least, i wonder what notes the nurses and dr. made! "mother chanted in strange languages for many hours" :LOL

i am having a problem about feeling sexual after the c-birth. my husband and i have been stressed to the max because he still hasn't found a job, so sex hasn't been much of an issue, neither of us have felt like it. but now i'm starting to feel like it ... except my brain keeps saying "that part of your body doesn't work anymore."







logically i know that's not true, the c-birth happened because of a short cord wrap issue. but i'm a sexual abuse survivor and it's just a bad, old habit to depersonalize in times of stress and live "out of body." i've been that way since the c-birth, especially since i couldn't breastfeed, my brain says "see, your whole body is out of order!"

i just feel so disconnected from my body. i do want to see a therapist but none i've found so far are taking Medicare, hopefully my husband will get a job with a decent health plan and then i can find a therapist. (i applied to the survivor's forum here, too, but i've not been a member for a year yet so i haven't heard back from them.)

anyone else go through this "disconnect" with their bodies?


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Kim, that's awesome you got nursing started right away







i definitely think having a doula helps, my doula latched Willow on for me literally moments after they rolled me into recovery. i still couldn't feel anything (spinal went wrong) but it was so amazing to watch Willow act like a hungry lil' piggy! *grins*


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

meli--i didn't exactly have the disconnect, but def felt like i was broken or that my body couldn't be trusted, and i also had issues with bfing though we were ultimately successful (except it still hurts)

baby hungry--more later


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mellybean*
who do you contact to read your charts? the OB or the L&D dept.? i'd be fascinated to read mine, and to correct any errors. it was an "interesting" labor at least, i wonder what notes the nurses and dr. made! "mother chanted in strange languages for many hours" :LOL

i am having a problem about feeling sexual after the c-birth. my husband and i have been stressed to the max because he still hasn't found a job, so sex hasn't been much of an issue, neither of us have felt like it. but now i'm starting to feel like it ... except my brain keeps saying "that part of your body doesn't work anymore."







logically i know that's not true, the c-birth happened because of a short cord wrap issue. but i'm a sexual abuse survivor and it's just a bad, old habit to depersonalize in times of stress and live "out of body." i've been that way since the c-birth, especially since i couldn't breastfeed, my brain says "see, your whole body is out of order!"

i just feel so disconnected from my body. i do want to see a therapist but none i've found so far are taking Medicare, hopefully my husband will get a job with a decent health plan and then i can find a therapist. (i applied to the survivor's forum here, too, but i've not been a member for a year yet so i haven't heard back from them.)

anyone else go through this "disconnect" with their bodies?

Yep, I feel totally disconnected. I have this image of myself in my head and I'm so shocked when I see my actual self in a mirror. sad. My husband and I have had sex less than 10 times in 2 1/2 years. We're working on it. You're not alone. I called the hospital that the csection took place and my ob's office for my records and my sons records.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I am having a hard time lately. I am at peace with c/s #2, at least as much as I will ever be. But lately the thoughts are starting again. I want another one so I can VBAC. I did everything right last time. Everything. Except maybe choosing an OB instead of a mw. I did interview a bunch of OBs though and this one had a decent VBAC rate. Although what caused the c/s would have happened even with a mw...But anyway whats done is done. But I have all tehse elaborate schemes in my head about how to VBAC next time... I just cant seem to get over it ... why? Why cant I just be ok with it like so many other women? I dont know ANYONE IRL who is as bothered by it as I am? They are all so thrilled to have everything scheduled and planned ... blah.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoTwo*
I just cant seem to get over it ... why? Why cant I just be ok with it like so many other women? I dont know ANYONE IRL who is as bothered by it as I am? They are all so thrilled to have everything scheduled and planned ... blah.

Because you're not "so many other women". Everybody deals with c/s differently. I know several people who have had sections - one was just thrilled, because it was what she was hoping for all along (I've never seen anybody so scared of labour), most of them weren't happy, but weren't really upset, either. I was absolutely devastated...for years and years. It's only been the last few weeks, while posting on this thread and reading what everybody else has to say, that I've come to any degree of peace with them at all.

Don't worry about why you're different - just accept that you are. No two women deal with birth exactly the same way, so why should we all deal with c-sections the same way?

I hope you find some peace with the surgeries...


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

You know Tina, I think some of it is also that a lot of women just don't talk about it. I was ok with mine, however, I had the chance to work through it all before it even happened--but--just tonight I was watching a rerun of friends, where Rachel goes into labor, tears were running down my face--for a number of reasons, first, i just looked at my dd and thought I wanted to do it all again (I'm pretty sure that was massive sleep deprivation talking though since she's been sick and I haven't slept in days) but also, I know I'll likely never get to say "Oh...I think my water just broke!!" I know that even if I have another baby the massive doses of blood thinners required for me to carry a pregnancy combined with my terrible arthritis will likely mean another planned c-section, but this little part of me would love to go into labor-not as much as I'd love to have another baby, but sure, I know enough to know that a vaginal birth can be empowering, I'm an adrenaline junky and I'm guessing there's a real good rush of it with a vaginal birth.
I know I'm lucky, I got to come to terms with it all before it happened and I know I'm lucky that when I think of my daughter's birth the things that stick out most are my OB saying "here she comes and she looks great!" and the tears in my dh's eyes when he handed her to me while they stitched me up.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Shannon has a good point, also. I think a lot of women just don't talk about it, so the people around them are unaware of how hard it was. By the time I went back to work with ds, I was quite casual and cavalier about the whole thing...but every time I said "oh, I had to have a c-section", I was bleeding inside.

And, Shannon - I know what you mean about the water breaking thing. I have had labour, but I really miss the feeling of being part of something. My sister, SIL and some friends talk about it sometimes, and I just kind of...wilt. They're talking about this magical moment, and I'm just thinking "oh, yeah - where the surgeon hands you a baby you hardly even knew was born...magical". But, it depends on the person. Maybe it is magical for some people. I know my dh gets really upset that I don't consider it a birth, because he felt 100% that he'd been there to see his daughter born...


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

You know, maybe I feel it was more of a birth because my spinal never took and it hurt like hell--I mean, labor is supposed to hurt, and even though it only lasted 40 minutes, Molly's birth hurt like a b***h! :LOL

Just a thought


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm not one of those people who believes that the birth experience itself is more important than the baby, or even as important in the grand scheme of things, but I must admit that it's very important to me. While I'm in no way unhappy with my c-section (emergency, double footling breech w/prolapsed cord) itself, I do feel like I've missed out on something. I won't glamorize vaginal birth, I had a vaginal delivery and it *sucked* royally, much more than my section. No, what I want is to be the first person to smell or touch my baby. I've had enough labor to last a lifetime, 4.5 days with BeanBean and none at all with BooBah. It's not about pushing the baby out for me, but what happens afterwards. We've always wanted to have four children, but my goal is to have the next one unassisted, ideally solo, so that I can be the first person to lay eyes and hands on my new baby. I want to see a brand new baby, straight out of the womb; I want to know what vernix feels and smells like, and be the first person to look into the eyes of my new person. I'd go to the hospital after the birth (I'm planning an accidental UC, if that makes any sense), but only after I've greeted my new person.

I'm not sure if it will happen. My water seems to break without doing anything to speed or begin labor, the sack kind of melts and all the fluid drips out but nothing else happens.







I'm not sure how long I'd wait before giving up. (We're not even TTC and I'm already talking about giving up on my birth plans...







) But that's what I want-- to be the first person on Earth to phsycially lay hands on my baby, and to be the person who gives my baby their first bath. :sigh


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
But that's what I want-- to be the first person on Earth to phsycially lay hands on my baby, and to be the person who gives my baby their first bath. :sigh

I know EXACTLY how you feel. UBAC is definitely in my radar, although I'm wary about it (and dh would freak if he even knew it was in my radar!). But I really want to catch my next babe. I really want to see and feel and touch and caress my next babe immediately after birth. I saw ds for about 10 seconds after his birth but I did not get to hold him on his b-day. That saddens me greatly.







A lot of things will have to be different for me to really be happy to birth in a hospital. I'd love to HBAC, but no mw will touch it in my state. {sigh} I just wanted to say I understand.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Woudn't it be great if they could get your dh in full sterile greens and let him pull the baby out??? I don't think any doc would allow it, but if you have to have a c-section, that's the way to do it!!
Or the way I had dreams of when I was hospitalized before Molly's birth (ok, this is weird--and when I told my doc about it she spit on me when she laughed)
I had this dream that I was sick of waiting to meet her--so in the middle of the night I took matters into my own hands and cut her out myself--but I did it from the top so I could see what I was doing (important don't ya know!) I got her out and she was perfect--and in the dream she looked very much how she looked when she was handed to me. Anyway, I didn't want to get in trouble from the nurses and stuff so whenever I heard someone coming down the hall, I would shove her back in--like a kangaroo! Silly nurses, none of them ever figured out I'd done surgery on myself :LOL


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## kyle98sean02 (Mar 28, 2003)

ROFL Shannon







When I was pregnant with my ds, I had dreamt that I was able to take him out and look at him and put him back in too. I told my dh and he thought I was nuts :LOL


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alaska*
Storm Bride (or anyone with info...) is there a problem with BF after C/S? The only info I can find is that the stress of the section may interfere, or the time mom and baby are separated. ARe there physical problems (besides the incision site... I mean with milk production?) This has me worried. I'm trying to remain calm and peaceful with my decision, but every time I think about it, I still get angry.


I breastfed my daughter, the oldest, after a traumatic csection. Granted I don't remember the event all too well but I did do it. As for my planned csection I was nursing within twenty minutes of birth, sitting up in a labor and delivery room. However he didn't seem too interested until 13 hours later, however I had no problems at all breastfeeding. The ideal is to have baby to the breast as soon as possible, hopefully within the first hour of birth. I've had my milk in with both previous csection in 48hrs.

Trying to catch up, I have had no computer access for a week and I am next door!

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Hi all,

I have been MIA. We have no internet access until I rig something up at my house or have a new line dropped for our DSL.
I am 31 weeks.







I had my latest doctors appointment and more and more I love my OB. I think I misjudged her in many ways, as she just let an aquaintance go to 43 weeks! I definitely have decided not to get my tubes tied and it looks like I will be going with the Mirena IUD. I will get it at my 6 week appointment or when I have my next cycle, it depends on how my cervix is.
I have been reading an interesting book and I may delay my csection for a week now, I will have to talk more about that later. So far baby is still breech and kicking on my bladder. She is measuring a week smaller at this point than my due date. This may be to breech presentation. I am still working on the final draft of my new csection birthplan and hope to share it with you all soon.

Congrats on the new babies!







We must see pics!!!

I will be back soon.

Kim


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
No, what I want is to be the first person to smell or touch my baby. I've had enough labor to last a lifetime, 4.5 days with BeanBean and none at all with BooBah. It's not about pushing the baby out for me, but what happens afterwards. We've always wanted to have four children, but my goal is to have the next one unassisted, ideally solo, so that I can be the first person to lay eyes and hands on my new baby. I want to see a brand new baby, straight out of the womb; I want to know what vernix feels and smells like, and be the first person to look into the eyes of my new person. ...
But that's what I want-- to be the first person on Earth to phsycially lay hands on my baby, and to be the person who gives my baby their first bath. :sigh
















that is exactly how i feel as well. i fantasized and dreamed about it so much when i was pregnant! i just felt so absolutely sure i would be holding her while we were still connected by the cord, i didn't prepare in the slightest for anything else to happen.

most of the time i feel extremely bonded with Willow, very confident, very sure of how i'm reading her signals, and she responds to me in kind. but those few times that we're not connecting for whatever reason, i always blame that i wasn't the first person to hold her. i end up thinking "if only we hadn't been separated ..." in my head i know we're bonded, and i know it's normal not to feel it 24/7 - especially when she's trying out some new signals! - but in my heart i just keep blaming my body, or fate, or karma.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Shannon: I just saw your post about the pain of the section. I really can't imagine being able to feel the surgery, as the incision pain afterwards was crippling enough. But, I think you have a point. Being unable to feel anything from the chest down does _not_ add to the feeling of being present at your baby's birth. It made me feel like an uninvolved spectator.

I'm interested in the variety of reactions to the post c-section b/f issue. I had dd to the breast _earlier_ than ds (because I had general anesthetic with ds), but it took much longer for my milk to come in. I had milk for ds the first morning - call it 10 hours of so after the surgery - but my milk really wasn't coming in for dd until about two days later. I'd put it down to the fact that I hadn't laboured with dd, but other people's experiences are so different! I wonder what the factors are. (It's not an overall supply issue at all, as I was pumping milk for donation in addition to feeding dd.)


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## focalimage (Apr 29, 2005)

Hi. I'm lisa, SAHM to CJ 12/20/02 and Drea 12/3/04. I had CJ naturally and Drea was supposed to be natural too but, she had a change of plans. I'm posting my birthstory. I wrote this a few days after her birth. It's been almost 5 months and things are okay, I'm healing well and my brain is doing alright though the whole things does make me sad and it only hit me 2 months ago how scary the whole thing was for me. But, I'm getting over it.









At 5:20 I started having contractions that were 5/6 min. apart. They were pretty steady though so I didn't know if that was it or not. But, at 10:30ish, my water broke. I was waiting for my mom and dad to come down to stay with CJ. They were late - naturally. But, when they got here, off we went. Things felt like they were going really easy so I wasn't really sure if I'd make it to the 4 cm I had to be to stay there but the pressure was strong and that's what made me decide to go for sure. After we got there, I found out I was already 7 cm. WHAT A SHOCK. Things had been so easy so far and were looking really good. And they continued that way. For a while. I'm not 100% sure about times but somewhere around 4:30 I was all set to push. Things were a little weird then - the sensations got really strong really fast and the idea of pushing started to scare me and I couldn't really explain why. I even said to steve after my first push - pushing wasn't scarey last time, why is it so scary this time? That's when my midwife Kelly started acting kind of weird. She said she didn't know what part of the head she was feeling. Then, I pushed a second time and all questions were answered - she didn't know what part of the head because in fact, it was a hip. She flipped herself upside down somewhere after I'd gotten there. The got Amanda back from the C-section she was helping on and she came in just as they made that discovery. This baby was right upside down, busting her way out bottom first...and they don't do that there. Amanda had only done one breech delivery and that baby had died before they attempted that otherwise, they wouldn't have so they really don't do that there. Things got hectic and a bit scary then. I had to have a c-section. I was told I couldn't push, had to be moved to a strecher and Amanda had to hop on the end of my bed as they wheeled me down the hall way so she could HOLD THAT BABY IN. Steve couldn't come in with me and I was going to have to be put out which is better anyways for me, i think. Once we got to the section room, the anastisiologist turned retarded and was trying repeatedly to get me to have an epidural and going over things while Amanda is sitting there holding my daugher inside me...she finally said, we really don't have time for this, put her out now and lets do this. Then, I had to move from the stretcher and get onto a table and had a contraction in the middle of that and said hold on (keeping in mind I'm not allowed to push) but the stupid dr. was like - um, I really need you to move... Amanda shut him up again. He really seemed to be missing the whole idea of what was going on here. But, luckily, that's all I really remember. Then, I was out. I woke up at 6:10 am or so. She was born at 5:06 and neither of her parents got to witness it.







But, she's here and she's wonderful. And, she has dark hair like me.







There was alot of scrambling around to figure out what to do now. Before they took me (or on the way?) I asked amanda the big questions - I'm going to have to stay now, for how long? (48 hours) So, I said to steve - what do we do with CJ? Oh, this changes everything... Then, I was off into that room...But, CJ managed just fine away from me and I had too much to deal with to focus on him not being with me so it's all good now. So, now I'm home, waiting for my pain meds to be ready. Incidently, I did make it through the whole labor drug free and it was almost pain free, so that was a bit of a bonus - at least it wasn't the hardest of labors. Andrea has a bit of brusing on her bottom because they actually had to push her back in so they could get her out but it's already going away, so she's fine. Her stats: 6lbs, 3 oz and 21 inches long. She was born 12/3/04 at 5:06 am. How do you like THOSE numbers? My birthmom bought me a lottery ticket. lol.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Hello all. I just had my baby Sunday and it was an unplanned section. I had planned a home water birth. I have my birth story posted http://www.mothering.com/discussions...77#post3052977

It is a very long story. Basicly I wouldn't dilate past 4 and so I had to transfer to the hospital and ended up with a section. We tried for a vaginal at the hospital but even pitocin didn't do the trick. I ended up completly knocked out and feel so awful that happened. Feel guilty I couldn't give my baby the peaceful home water birth we wanted. Feel awful I didn't get to hold her right away. It took forever for them to get her to me. Everyone else had seen her and I was left in pain waiting. That was the hardest thing, hubby and I had dreamed of when she first comes out and is put into our arms. I am so sad we couldn't meet her together. He says he was happy she was okay but couldn't enjoy it fully until he knew I was okay and until I saw her. So, it was hard on both of us. DH was so scared waiting, I didn't even know they were gonna knock me out until after the fact.

Anyway, I did start to try to breasfeed her that day. I was upset to find out they had had to give her a bottle a couple hours after she was born. I had a bit of a hard time the first day, we ended up using some of the formula the hospital gave us. It was hard to take care of her. I was exhausted. I never really got any sleep over an hour until Tuesday. I had been awake from Saturday morning all the way until I got the epi Sunday morning. Sunday morning I only slept for about 20 minutes total. I kept getting interupted by people checking on my contractions. That made it hard to feed her being so tired. I would start to fall asleep while holding her. We roomed in with her so she was there all the time, wouldn't of had it any other way even though I was so tired. My milk came in Tuesday night, really late at night after we made it home. Things got easier after that.

Suprised at what our bodies can do though, Here it is a week from then and I still haven't slept more than 2 hours at a time. I probably get about 4 hours everyday at the most. Never imagined I would be able to be up this much especially after all that mess!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Your situation sounded close to mine, but I started in the hospital.

Congrats on the baby! I'm sorry things have been rough. THey will get better


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I breastfed Tracy about 35 minutes after c/b. He was wheeled out of the OR in my arms. We had our first elevtor ride together and to the breast he went









I breastfed Bryce about 90 minutes after birth. It would have been longer but the nurses brought him "early" saying that he was mad unless latched onto their arms. So, they figured breast would be the best way to go


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Hello
Remember me? I lost the thread for a while.. Can I rejoin??

Chantal


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Question for those of you who have had sections before.

I am having a small amount of bleeding from where they cut me, only on one side. We called the hospital I was transfered to. I dont' have my own ob, I used a mw. All they told me was "it CAN be normal" I'm thinking, anything CAN be normal. I need to know when it isn't, I need to know what to look for. Hubby was the one who called. He said they also suggested I come and see them but I can't drive an hour and twenty minutes every time something new happens. They didn't tell me what to expect during my recovery before I left, didn't tell me a thing.

Hubby looked at it and said it looks like a small "hole" is there. Seems this is the source of the bleeding. Now I haven't been doing too much or anything like that so I know that isn't the problem. Hubby has done all the housework, the most I have done is wash diapers and clean the toilet. I have only picked up the baby and nothing more.

I'm worried, anybody have any advice?


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

You're only a week post surgery so I'd say a little bleeding from the incision site is fairly normal. I didn't have any at that point but my skin tends to heal extremely quickly and I know my OB was surprised just how good mine looked. Make sure you continue to take things very easy, maybe put a light dressing on the incision and keep it clean and dry. If at any point it looks red or angry, pussy, etc, you need to be seen right away. But just some oozing blood or clear fluid is pretty normal.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh and keep dh doing all the housework--especially toilet scrubbing!! It was likely that toilet scrub that caused this bleeding


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I did accept that having a vaginal birth was not in the cards for me, and thats okay.









OTF: I wanted to thank you for such a nicely written note.. even tho it wasn't written "to" me.. I felt it was. You said so many things that really spoke to me..

I have had 2 c/s and am.. on the fence.. as to what I want to do the next time around. I know that.. deep down in my heart of hearts.. I want to have a vaginal birth.. But I also know that I too need a baby the "right size (for me)" in the right position...With 2 prior c/s.. do the risks outweigh my desires to have a vaginal birth? Would my attempting one be selfish? Will I even be allowed to try.. if I decide to..?

all these questions have been plauging me lately.. and we are not even TTC at this time.... I still can't read about birth or watch it on tv without crying and feeling a deep sense of loss..

It is so funny and ironic that I can feel at peace with how my second birth went to some degree.. and still grieve what was lost..

Chantal


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Yippeee! I have internet access once again.

I saw something that really pissed me off on the Discovery Health Channel last week. It said that mothers having cesarean births could not have a choice in anestesia, that it was totally up to the doctor. BS. I will promptly be writing them a letter to let them know how wrong that is. I strongly encourage every woman who posts or lurks here that if you find yourself in this situation that you discuss this with your Ob BEFORE hand, even if you plan a vaginal birth. I feel blessed more and more that I have choice and that my OB respects that choice. How sad that some women don't.

I am hearing more and more about babies being held hostage by nursery workers too while their moms recover from surgical birth. This is total BS. If this goes on at your hospital, write the administrators about this -- it doesn't have to be this way. Of course there may be medical situations where having your baby in recovery could be a problem, but for the run of the mill csection -- nope, you can easily have your baby with you during recovery time, no matter where you recover. If OBs and hospitals are going to have 25% plus csection rates, then they need to start changing some of their "ideas" and protocols for these types of deliveries and accomadate keeping women and their babies together.

Ok, now updates on everyone!

Kim-


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

Kim - what a timely post! I have my first appointment with my new doc on Thursday and I plan to go in armed with a first draft birth plan (plagarized from yours and others I found on the web, of course







) The one thing I am NOT willing to compromise on is having the baby with me in recovery. I've been told that some of the recovery nurses will "allow" this and some won't. What a great idea about writing the hospital administrator - I am definitely going to do... I might even do that as a precautionary method.

I hope that I can get over the anger I feel over having this unnecessary surgery - forced to choose an "elective c/s" and truly, NO judgment on anyone else - but for me, the thought of ME choosing an elective c/s is repulsive. The world is as it is though (meaning I have to make the best out of the situation at hand) and I'm still satisfied that we're doing the right thing. It's just so damn hard to swallow sometimes.

Hello to everyone new who has posted their stories of late - Apologies for not being able to say hi individually but welcome to everyone.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Alaska, personally I wouldn't pre-emptively write the hospital administrator, I think it may give you a bit of a "the kid who had her mom call and make us be nice" attitude then-and they may then insist on sticking to all the 'rules'
Personally, I think your better approach is to bring the nurses some brownies or cookies or something like that, make friends with them, then they'll do anything for you, even bending the rules. For instance, I had NO issues with co-sleeping (and while my hospital doesn't say no co-sleeping they do require that if mom has had any meds she not co-sleep-pain meds don't affect me mentally and they simply turned their heads) I received no resistance to my request for no eye ointment-my nurse even said, there really is no need when you have a c-section and it blurrs their vision for when they first meet you! My nurses went and got me a pillow so I wasn't laying so flat on the operating table which made it easier for me to hold her while they stitched me up.
So.... I guess as a person who's gone in bitching and gone in making friends, I'd definitely recomend the latter.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

I will write more of my story later but I had an Emergency C with DS (my 2nd birth) 4.5 - 5 wks early

My DD was born vag with no meds

I had very supportive Nurses & a OB/GYN.
I was nursing(or trying to







DS did not latch well as 1st) as soon as I got back to my room.

I had the Nurses helping me out with the nursing all the time.
They were great


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

thanks for the alternative perspective Shannon0218 - you might be right. I'm really not intending on storming in on the day of surgery ready for battle.... I'm just scared - worried about "consenting" and then having my last birth experience being something I regret. I will think about it though.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I just put my updated birthplan on my blog today. Go read it and tell me what you think. I don't think I have left anything out.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Kim-- Just one question: why sutures, rather than glue? I've only had the one section, but I *loved* the glue. They still do sutures on the inside, but on the outside there was just the super glue stuff.







My scar healed beautifully, and quickly (after I dealt with that pesky little infection...







).


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Kim-- Just one question: why sutures, rather than glue? I've only had the one section, but I *loved* the glue. They still do sutures on the inside, but on the outside there was just the super glue stuff.







My scar healed beautifully, and quickly (after I dealt with that pesky little infection...







).

I've been reading about the glue and discussing it with my sister a good deal (an RN) and there seems to be a debate on how well it actually holds. For some it may do great, but the risk of the incision reopening seems to be greater than if you have stitches or staples. I'd rather go with what I know, than what I don't at this point since I have had stitches and were pleased with the results.

Kim


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Kim I definitely agree on the glue, that glue has been in use in animals for years (we tested it before it ever got used on humans) and while it's a great thing, we have NEVER used for an actual large incision. We use it when we do a skin biopsy instead of one stitch, we use it on bit wounds if they need to be closed, etc. You are right, on some it sticks great, on others it just doesn't hold at all. I used it on myself on a dog bite I got that was severe but I was out of town at a trial and didn't want to go to hospital there-I had Vet Bond in my first aid kit. I just used it on the largest part as I wanted the rest to be able to drain and it kept coming unglued every few hours. I ended up going in and getting it treated with 5 stitches.
I had staples but only because they were rushing out, my OB was very disapointed to staple me, but I healed up beautifully, I think the work underneath was just so good it didn't matter what was on top.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Is the tape something that's used a lot? With my son, I had staples, which were removed when I left the hospital (5 day stay). There wasn't anything else. With my daughter, they removed the staples when I left (3 day stay), but I had these little tape strips still over the incision. They gradually came off one by one over the next several days. I'm not sure how much they helped hold the incision, but they sure itched by the time the last few came off!!


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

I think (at least for me) is that the big concern with the glue is that many people are either allergic or very sensitive to it. I don't do well with any medical adhesives -- they either come right off or make my skin peel off. Not pleasant. I recently had butterfly bandages on a cut on my finger and they peeled off within 36 hours. Just came unglued -- despite me babying that finger and keeping it very, very dry. We won't even discuss the condition of my skin from the steri-strips over my sutures from my c/s ...


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Sutures do not require steri-strips, but many docs put them on just as a back up, they use them after staples because staples are removed before the top incision could be completely healed--another good reason for sutures.


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoTwo*
I am 6 mo pp and trying to be gentle with myself. I feel that my c-birth was medically necessary. Unfortunately my first one was not, and that is the one I beat myself up over daily, if not hourly. I dont know if I will ever get past it. I feel like its always right there in the front of my mind. I relive both births over and over again in my mind all the time, and especially with the first one, I think what if I had done this or that differently ...

I am now considering #3 just for another shot at vbac. I wanted it SO bad. I have a friend on a board that had a c-birth and tried for a VBAC with #2 just as much as I did, and she had a c-birth in the end also, and she has given me some perspective on it, and given me things to think about and I am grateful for that. I am breastfeeding, and I think that it helps me SO much to see that my body DOES know what to do for my baby. I am sure I'll be posting more on this thread again.

I wanted to send you hugs.. lots of them.. Your situation sounds exactly like mine. Exactly... It has been 4 years since my first c/s.. and I still cry about it sometimes..

Chantal


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I think I finally was able to get them into a photo album.

http://onthefence.typepad.com/photos/katierose_4d/

Kim


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## kyle98sean02 (Mar 28, 2003)

Those pics are great! Thanks for sharing, they are just amazing


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

She is gorgeous! NOw to see her outside the womb :LOL

My ob wouldn't do sutures. I asked. She said she didn't like the way they healed or something. I didn't push the issue since I wasn't that concerned about it.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
She is gorgeous! NOw to see her outside the womb :LOL

My ob wouldn't do sutures. I asked. She said she didn't like the way they healed or something. I didn't push the issue since I wasn't that concerned about it.

They take more time to do, But I guarantee you if it was her, she would get them. Most female OBs have no problems doing them, its the male doctors that have a fit over doing them, so I am pretty surprised.

Thanks for the compliments!


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## Mama Rana (Aug 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
They take more time to do, But I guarantee you if it was her, she would get them. Most female OBs have no problems doing them, its the male doctors that have a fit over doing them, so I am pretty surprised.

Thanks for the compliments!

my (male) OB did sutures. (I know you weren't saying that male OBs never do them, just wanted to share my exp). It was prolly the one nice thing he did for me. I was a transfer from the birthing center, we'd never met. He'd obviously been awake for too many hours, his bedside manner was non-existant. Practicaly rolled his eyes when I asked him to check my dialation again before getting the epidural and before surgery. But everyone (who knows anything about surgery scars) who has seen my incision site says he did a beautiful job.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

My baby flipped last night. She is head down and my total pregnancy shape changed. In fact this morning I woke up and instead of seeing a bulging belly it was just my shelf roll of fat. I started palpatating where her head was supposed to be and didn't feel it. I freaked out! I also couldn't feel her moving and when I stood up, I no longer had this huge belly out in front of me. I drank a tall galss of ice cold orange juice and laid down and in about ten minutes I was getting these strong kicks up high and a spinning motion at the bottom -- a total reverse from the last 5-6 weeks. I think I ticked her off from a nice sleep because she has been moving since, but the movements are definitely different.

I have never had a baby turn at this stage of the game.
My friend thinks I should call my OB, I can just hear me now talking to the nurse and her thinking I am a total nut case.

Kim


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## kyle98sean02 (Mar 28, 2003)

That would have freaked me out. I would call the OB, but i am paranoid about every little thing when I'm pregnant. You could just tell the nurse your feeling her move less if you want to get checked out without having to explain everything to her. Which way was more comfy for ya?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OTF: That's what I'm still hoping _will_ happen. Baby's still got his/her head up high, and is kicking me in the bladder. I'm still hoping this one will turn, and I can try my VBA2C.

When's your next scheduled appointment with your OB?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
OTF: That's what I'm still hoping _will_ happen. Baby's still got his/her head up high, and is kicking me in the bladder. I'm still hoping this one will turn, and I can try my VBA2C.

When's your next scheduled appointment with your OB?

Next Wednesday. I called my sister (the maternal/fetal nurse) and she says it definitely sounds like my baby's head has gone south. This is the weirdest thing. See my other post. I am really wigged out -- my pregnant belly doesnt look so pregnant anymore.

Kim


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

If the baby stays head down, will you still be having the section?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
If the baby stays head down, will you still be having the section?

I guess! I would say yes, but my husband and my sister really want me to take a wait and see approach.
I've had a lot of intuition about this pregnancy in the beginning, one of the things is that I dreamed in the beginning that I had a preterm baby, not grossly preterm, just a small healthy breathing on their own baby. I've never felt I would make it to the end - does this make sense? I told my husband that if I was to go into labor, as long as I was not in pain and had good fetal movement I would stay at home as long as I could, just to mentally prepare for a new baby. I've never gone into labor before, never been in a position to labor actually, so I can only speculate what I would do. If my water broke, I would be in the hospital as fast as our car could get us there.
I definitely see myself delaying my csection with a head down baby, at least by another week if not two.
I just don't know what to think. I had a perfectly great planned csection before -- I was planning on that this time, but now I wonder if this baby is going to be choosing her own birthday. She seems to have a mind of her own!


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

OnTheFence, all i can say is that i am definitely glad i had labor before the c-birth. i mean, i could feel all the endorphins kicking in, and i was so glad Willow got the "happy hormones"







i can see the attraction of planning a c-birth and being ready for it (rather than rushing into an emergency situation like i had to), and letting the baby pick her birthday! a little labor might give you a great endorphin rush which will see you all the way through into recovery, i didn't "come down" off my high for 3 days







but then all labors are different, i think if you go into with a "it's pain with a purpose" mindset and take it one surge at a time, it could be very exciting! like going up that big hill on a rollercoaster, and then whoooooshhh!









on to another subject ... i'm having issues with nightmares







i wish they didn't require a year's membership to join the abuse survivor's forum here! i have to wait until August. the cesarean brought up so many issues for me, because the spinal went wrong and i was totally numb and passing out, i had a lot of problems at first truly believing Willow was my baby (looking back i feel so stupid for worrying about that! she was SO my girl!) because she was there one moment, and just GONE the next. it seemed like an eternity, you know? so now, she'll be sleeping in my arms, and i dream that i wake up and she's gone








i'm screaming and panicking trying to find her. then i wake up for real, my heart pounding like crazy, and she's still peacefully asleep in my arms. whew! anyway the nightmares are *every* night now, so i know i need to talk to someone. i'm on Medicare and Medicaid, calling around trying to find a therapist that takes either, no luck so far.

anyone else have nightmares later on? i mean, not right after the surgery, but like 5 or more months after birth?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't recall nightmares with my emergency section (12 years ago). But, my dd was scheduled - only 2 days in advance, and I did have nightmares after that. But, they didn't start until I got pregnant again. When the doctors started talking about me needing another section, I started waking having nightmares about the walk into OR, about them almost forgetting to get my husband (that happened with dd...the nurse who was going to show him in just disappeared), about the pain afterwards, about something happening to my dd because I was in too much pain to help her, etc., etc. It was awful. It wasn't until I started talking to my OB about trying a VBA2C that things started to settle down, and I still have occasional problems. Dd was 2-years-old on Monday.

C-sections suck, imo.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mellybean*
anyone else have nightmares later on? i mean, not right after the surgery, but like 5 or more months after birth?

Yep. My ds is 26 months. I still have a lot of night time "anxiety". I didn't see him for 3 days after the section (I saw a fleeting blurry image of his butt...). He was flight-for-life-d to PSL in Denver and I had to stay in Vail to recover. Ugh. It was mostly bad right after coming home from the hospital. What sleep I did get was only when he was resting in my arms. We tried to put him in the cradle next to our bed those initial days... but the fear that he wouldn't be there when I awoke was so strong that I needed to hold him to sleep at all! Which was good, in the long run, as he needed that too. Now, 2 years later- I do still wake in a bit of a panic sometimes...with that feeling that he's not there. I hate it.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Tomorrow I go in for my OB appointment, I am actually going to discuss the possibility of VBAC if my baby is in the right position. I've never had a baby in the "right" position and I've never gone into labor, so the only way I would even want to attempt it, is if I went into spontaneous labor to begin with. I am not sure what my doctor will say. The ACOG seems to leave VBA2C at the OBs discretion.
Since Katie is head down, I am also thinking of waiting another week for my scheduled csection since my risks with a vertex baby are less than with a breech baby.
Right now I am really at a loss, because I want to really listen to my body and this baby. I am perfectly fine with a repeat csection, but I have this strong pull that if Katie puts me into labor before then I should at least give my body a TOL.

Kim


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

OTF That would be AWESOME!! What an exciting oppurtunity for you. I'd write more but nak....

Let us know how it goes


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I spent several hours talking to another mom last night about VBAC, Cesarean and birth in general, it was a good conversation to have before my appointment this morning.

First let me say, that Katie is vertex, she is right on my cervix, and is even in the proper position for birth. Her estimated weight is 5lbs 5oz, and she is very "fat" looking for a 33 weeker. The US tech was new (to that office) and wanted to play with the 4D US machine and I was not going to argue. I got a great 10-15 minute peak at my baby who has very fat legs and fat cheeks. She even sucked her thumb for us, and acted all wild giving us a really great show. She also has HAIR!







And we checked, and she is definitely still a girl.

Now for the rest of my update. My OB is as puzzled as I am, she probably spent 40 minutes talking to me today about my options, and vaginal birth isn't one of them. She doesn't even want me going into labor, if it can be avoided. She said there is just too much unknown and its better to go with what we know than what we don't know. It also appears that my septum has torn or is tearing -- she said she doesn't have enough experience with this to even know what kind of risk if any has on my pregnancy/uterus. She said that she has other patients with uterine deformities, but none like mine (thanks Mom...lol) She also, is amazed that Katie was able to get past the septum and turn vertex. We discussed rupture - she said it could vary and she sited the same numbers I've found on the net and through my own research -- it ranges from 3-20%, she also said that most ruptures do happen before or during the first stage of labor.

I'm not disappointed. In fact I feel relief, that I can continue on with my csection as planned. It may not end up being scheduled like I want it because if I start having more than 5-6 contractions an hour she is going to go ahead and section me -- especially since we don't really know what is going on with the septum and I am definitely looking at a csection at 37 weeks, even with her head down at this point. I'm not going to lie, I am a little nervous about going into labor because of the "unknown" and I am concerned about the septum. I didn't know it could "tear".

I will try to post more later.

Kim


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

OTF-- I'm glad you feel good about it. I know I felt some relief when I schedlued my repeat at 37 weeks









I didn't know a septum could rip either. Can you feel it? Is she going to do some research and let you know about the tear or is she just goin to wait? Good luck to you! You are getting close aren't you


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## Cullens_Girl (Feb 6, 2005)

I hated the whole thing and frankly although I want more children I would rather adopt than go through what I did again.

I went into labor on Thanksgiving Day. I was cooking dinner for my family and thought it was just gas pains. Well it wasn't. I had inconsistent hard contractions for two days and finally went into the hospital Saturday morning around 6 a.m. 4 cm's dilated. Everything was going as planned - I was able to work through my contractions naturally until about 3 p.m. The doctor's decided to break my bag of waters and give me pitocin to speed things up although I was already 9 cm's dilated. Looking back - WT*?? Any way that REALLY sped things up but I started having horrible back labor. I was still okay but they wouldn't let me move from my back -they had me hooked up to all these tubes and wires and crap and CJ's heartrate started dropping w/every contraction after they administered the pitocin. Back labor was NO FUN lying flat on your back. The nurses kept offering pain relief so I finally caved and got an epidural around 5 p.m. The pain relief only last about an hour or so. Again, I find out later that epidurals don't work for hard back labor. Again I say now - WT*??? My OB was out of town so I had the doctor on call and he has me start pushing at 6 p.m. only we don't progress at all. CJ's heartrate dropped down to 20 bpm at one point - and that's when they decided I needed a c-section. All my hard work and I wound up with a c-section. CJ was born around 9:30 that night. He was stuck on my tailbone and was told later it would have been physically impossible for me to deliver him vaginally. I don't believe that.

I am so dissapointed with the whole thing. They were talking football while stitching me up and Cullen was in with CJ getting him all checked out. I didn't see CJ until like an hour later and I couldn't even hold him because I was numb from the neck down. And the shaking! The uncontrolable shaking was worse then the contractyions. He didn't nurse with me until midnight - almost 3 hours later.

Every time I think about his birth I cringe. Recovery sucked. I am not living in a place conducive to recovering from a c-section. Nothing I could would make me comfortable and I took minimal pain relievers because I was nursing. Almost gave up on nursing all together.

They told me I won't be able to deliver vaginally ever and the idea of another c-section terrifies me.

How do you all deal with bad birth experiences, and what can I do to get past this? Is the whole no vbac a load of cr*p?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Dani,

I don't see why you would not be a candidate for VBAC. It appears by your story that your labor was mismanaged.

My first csection was horrific -- I actually did go onto to adopt a child and my cesarean experience played a part in that. However I did get pregnant and went on to have a postive, beautiful birth experience - a cesarean. It wasn't until then that I was completely healed of what had happened to me before. Its a spiritual, emotional, and physical journey for sure. I am now set to have another baby by planned cesarean section in June. I have a wonderful OB has supported me every step of the way and is willing to give me the birth I want.

I strongly recommend that you find a VBAC friendly doctor in your area, get your OP reports and medical records, and study them to find out what went wrong and what they listed as the reason for your cesarean.


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

congrats OTF on your questions getting answered and decision made.... I can imagine the relief you feel.


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## Cullens_Girl (Feb 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Dani,

I don't see why you would not be a candidate for VBAC. It appears by your story that your labor was mismanaged.

My first csection was horrific -- I actually did go onto to adopt a child and my cesarean experience played a part in that. However I did get pregnant and went on to have a postive, beautiful birth experience - a cesarean. It wasn't until then that I was completely healed of what had happened to me before. Its a spiritual, emotional, and physical journey for sure. I am now set to have another baby by planned cesarean section in June. I have a wonderful OB has supported me every step of the way and is willing to give me the birth I want.

I strongly recommend that you find a VBAC friendly doctor in your area, get your OP reports and medical records, and study them to find out what went wrong and what they listed as the reason for your cesarean.

thanks for your reply... i think I live in an area where finding a doc hopefully will not be too difficult if the time comes. One issue is that in the state of RI I believe (need to check my facts) homebirths are illegal - or it's illegal for a midwife to preside or something like that. Again I really need to check my facts. DH and I are planning a move to NH within the next two years so it could be I'll be dealing with NH not RI.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Dani- I could have written that Post almost to a tee.







I sympathise, really









And ITA w/ OTF!!

Quote:

I don't see why you would not be a candidate for VBAC. It appears by your story that your labor was mismanaged
Deffinatly find a Midwife (even one that delivers n a birth center/hospital) to work with you. Even now, to manage your well-woman care


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Dani, if you haven't read it already, i recommend the book "Birthing From Within" by Pam England. if you're artsy, you might like the drawing exercises. i loved using the book to prepare for birth, and now i'm loving using it to recover from my c-birth. i hope you're able to find a good midwife!

OTF, you really are a Cesarean Goddess!







have you ever thought of getting something like a spiral tattooed on your belly?









someday i want to get a small spiral tattoo right above my scar. i had made a little "pocket goddess" with a spiral belly and rubbed it the whole time i was in labor! the one time i feel truly good about the c-birth is when i touch my scar and think of how i'll explain Willow's birth to her when she's old enough to understand, i can show her the scar and tattoo and say "that is my other birth canal, that is how you entered my world"


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Thank Melly








I am not a tatoo kind of girl but that sounds cool. :LOL


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

melly-- I was going to do something similar but they can't tat over scars because the ink doesn't hold and I have too many stretch marks to work around :LOL

Ok, so I asked this in a seperate post but no one has answered....

I think I'm having pain in my c/b scar. I've not had problems with adhesions before and I'm not sure what they are even like. I can't tell where the pain is comoing from as it seems to radiate along the entire scar line (internally) I thought maybe it was an ovary acting up but since it follows my scar line I'm not so sure. What do you think??


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
I think I'm having pain in my c/b scar. I've not had problems with adhesions before and I'm not sure what they are even like. I can't tell where the pain is comoing from as it seems to radiate along the entire scar line (internally) I thought maybe it was an ovary acting up but since it follows my scar line I'm not so sure. What do you think??

you can tell if it's adhesions if the pain starts/worsens with your movements, i'm pretty sure. like, if i'm sitting cross-legged and lean back on my arms (doing some yoga) WOW it hurts! feels like a sharp cold sensation in some areas and outright tearing pain in others. i have the cold sensations near my scar, but my pain is more towards my navel, on the right side. perhaps you could try bending and twisting to see if there's a pattern to the pain?

this is my first surgical experience so i don't know how to tell if a scar has torn or ruptured from the inside, hopefully someone else can post with that info.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

My doc said it could be adhesions. BUt I have no pain with movmnt or if I'm having pain it doens't get worse with movement. SO, I'm not sure.

She said if it gets worse or is longer lasting then we'll look into it but right now adhesions is the best guess. But I'm 15 months POST c/b...wouldn't it have started sooner than this??


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

I think I'm having pain in my c/b scar. I've not had problems with adhesions before and I'm not sure what they are even like. I can't tell where the pain is comoing from as it seems to radiate along the entire scar line (internally) I thought maybe it was an ovary acting up but since it follows my scar line I'm not so sure. What do you think??
I dont know about it being adhesions... doesnt sound likely being 15 mos. pp but I have the same pains. but i was told im just still healing. (Im only 10 weeks pp.)








It's more likely just uncomfortable scar tissue. Somehow iritated maybe?


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

This thread is fascinating. My cesarean births were so different, and it appears that there is a whole range of experience.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
This thread is fascinating. My cesarean births were so different, and it appears that there is a whole range of experience.


This could not be more true


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Strange question-- my scar gets *extremely* itchy and peely when I'm about to get my period. Is that normal? Are the two even related?


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
This could not be more true









ditto.. my 2 c/s were very very different...

Chantal


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Morning
ANyone heard from OTF? (sorry I don't know your name..







) Hope all is well.

I was wondering if anyone here has had more than 2 c-sections? I am thinking ahead.. like I usually do, and I am trying to sort out my options and feelings on baby #3, who isn't even a twinkle in my eye yet... I go for a 6 month post partum visit (anyone heard of that?! new to me!) in Mid June and wanted to go with some questions about TTC #3.. timing, options etc..

Part of me wants a vba2c.. and the other part of me says I am being selfish. My second C was not a bad experience, taken as a whole.. a bitter dissapointment.. yes... a hard recovery (harder than #1).. so I am a bit worried about #3..

Chantal


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## Cullens_Girl (Feb 6, 2005)

why in the world would you need a 6 month pp visit? I've never heard of that.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Strange question-- my scar gets *extremely* itchy and peely when I'm about to get my period. Is that normal? Are the two even related?


I wouldn't be surprised. I tried to make sure to pay attention to mine and see if I saw changes. I didn't notice any. My tattoos get tingly when I ovulate and the first day of af.

I started working 2 weeks ago and I think my body is adjusting to Bryce not really nursing during the day. Af came 5 days early! I was only cd29 this morning and she hasn't been showing till about cd33 lately. I was expecting her to show on tuesday...the day AFTER we get home from our 3 days trip


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

OMG Megan!!! I'm so glad you said that about your tatoos!!! Mine getts itchy and tingly just before my period too!!! I said it to my doctor (family doc) and she looked at me like I was from Mars.

OTF has been posting elsewhere on the board, I think all is well


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

hi all,

thanks for asking about me. I am hot, tired, and big as a house. baby is still vertex. I never knew there was so much pressure and PAIN down there with a vertex baby. OUCH. Baby is big. I think she may be as big if not bigger than my last baby, and she is strong. I have contractions about every 10-12 minutes but my cervix is tight, long, and high.
we are getting ready for Katie to arrive. this three day weekend will give us plenty of time to get our house in order, and hopefully maintain it. I hope to have a firm date for my csection come June 2nd.
As for our LONG thread, I am going to start a new one on June 1st, with my updated birth plan and a link to this current thread. I really hope we can get more people to participate and talk about their cesareans here and their choices and experiences. I get lots of PMs and emails from lurkers and it would be nice if more people in the forum would come out and talk. I think it would be good for all of us.

Kim


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald*

I was wondering if anyone here has had more than 2 c-sections?

I have had three. one emergency and two scheduled at full term.


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sdgirl*
I have had three. one emergency and two scheduled at full term.

What were your experiences.. did it get tougher each time? I am wondering if I had such a rough recovery because 1. I was in full labor and pushing for 4 hours before the section and 2. they nicked my bladder..

I am just trying to figure out if I schedule.. if I will have an easier recovery.. I have only ever had my section after long labors..

This is a very difficult thing for me to ponder.. actually thinking of scheduling a section instead of labor..







:

Chantal


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

I will post tonight i have to be a mom now.


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## Cullens_Girl (Feb 6, 2005)

:

curious as well. I labored for 3 days and pushed 3 hours before my e/c. They are telling me to get another c when the time comes but I want a vbac because of the recovery time.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I've only had two sections - one emergency and one scheduled. And, I can honestly say that I noticed very little difference in my recovery time. The first day or two with my emergency section was worse, but I think that was exhaustion (my labour had started at bedtime, so I'd been up a long time by the time they cut) and the general anesthetic. Once I got past that phase, I was about equally incapacitated by each section. Some women seem to find that the scheduled ones are easier/faster to recover from, but that wasn't the case with me at all.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

My experience, and research has shown, that mothers recover faster from planned cesarean deliveries vs unplanned cesarean deliveries or those that labor before having a cesarean. Materal outcomes are better in planned, well as fetal/baby outcomes are about the same depending on the reason for your cesarean.

I had one unplanned cesarean in that it was an emergency, the recovery was a nightmare, physically and emotionally.
My planned cesarean was a breeze, virtually pain free. However I prepared for it for months, emotionally, physically and with my OB. I have done the same this time. This time my pregnancy is different, so my birth experience may be different -- so I will let you know, but I still plan on having just as good of an experience and recovery.

There are several things I like about planning my cesarean. I get my OB, I get to request who assists her. I get to pick my anest. and the person who performs it. I arrange for my pediatrician to be there. My support people will make plans to be there as planned, and my childcare is planned for. Things aren't rushed. Last time I got to pick my L&D nurse, this time, I will not be doing that because I don't know any up there at the moment. My sister does and plans to take care of getting me a good nurse. I probably will not even be in L&D but 4-5 hours.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Things aren't rushed.

That was the worst part of my scheduled section! I've had nightmares about waiting for it to be time. I actually found the "emergency" part of my first section to be the easiest aspect to cope with.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

The first 24-36 hours were a LOT easier with better pain control (spinal and duramorph) which I had in my planned c. I was walking, eating, and peeing earlier - but some of that was just sheer practice at how early I could do what. But maybe that also had to do with the spinal since I got unhooked iv's, caths, etc earlier since that's not where my pain meds were coming from. Immediately after was more of a breeze. But after the good drugs were over, recovery and pain are the same a week after with my planned and my emergency with epidural (and a huge drug cocktail.) I would say the first 3 or 4 days were harder with my c-section with general. This incision is healing slower...so in many cases I think easier or harder is a lot of variables beyond just planned vs not.


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## pinky (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald*
What were your experiences.. did it get tougher each time? I am wondering if I had such a rough recovery because 1. I was in full labor and pushing for 4 hours before the section and 2. they nicked my bladder..

I am just trying to figure out if I schedule.. if I will have an easier recovery.. I have only ever had my section after long labors..

This is a very difficult thing for me to ponder.. actually thinking of scheduling a section instead of labor..







:

Chantal

Hi, I haven't posted much on this thread but wanted to share my experience. I have had two unplanned c-sections. I had a very long (60+ hours) labors with both my babies, my first I did not push but went straight to c-sec, my second I pushed for 3 hours before the section.

My recovery was much harder with my second, but I think this had everything to do with having an older child to take care of and nothing much to do with the labor and surgery itself (although, now that you mention it, they did nick my bladder the second time around). I was just up and around much more, and dh was much busier with my older dd. I think that's just hard to avoid.

That being said, despite the three hours of pushing, overall I felt much better during my second dd's birth and immediately afterwards...I had awesome labor support and was really able to keep my head during a long unmedicated labor. So by the time she was born, I was very tired but still in a pretty calm place...not at all like my first dd's birth!

I think it is a very personal decision whether or not to schedule a c-section, but for what it's worth, I wouldn't trade my labor experience with dd#2 for anything.

Gotta run, baby calling!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

A couple of people have referred to having their IVs and catheters removed earlier with spinal/epidural. Why is that? My IV was kept in about 18 hours with my first section and about 18 again with my second section. Of course, they stuck the IV back in after about 6 hours with my first one, because some mental midget decided I had an infection because I was "running a fever".

Is it normal to take out the IV more quickly if you have a spinal or epidural?


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## Cullens_Girl (Feb 6, 2005)

I delivered at 9:30 p.m. - My catheter was removed very early the next morning. I labored for three days prior to my section and up until the idiots decided I needed pitocin and water broken at 3 p.m. (although I was dilating just fine) did I receive an IV.

Next time I want a VBAC no IV, no monitors, no nothing.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

18 hours is pretty standard it seems like for IV and for urine cath. If you have no fever they're runnng fluids and often pitocin afterwards, sometimes antibiotics preventatively - but those are usually done way before 18 hours. If you want and your doc is ok, they can come out earlier. However, if you're getting your pain medication in your epidural, it seemed to me that stayed in longer. Spinals do not leave in in dwelling tube in your back to deliver pain meds afterwards - epidurals do. Perhaps that's not universal, but that's one reason many people like epidurals over spinals because it's used to deliver the pain meds afterwards. The spinal wears off very quickly once you're out of surgery, so you are able to walk pretty quickly. I think my iv was in longer when i was using the morphine pump. As least for me, when I still have tubes of any sort, it delays my getting up and really walking more than just the few feet to the bathroom. Even that is a pain when you drag a pole along with you.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
A couple of people have referred to having their IVs and catheters removed earlier with spinal/epidural. Why is that? My IV was kept in about 18 hours with my first section and about 18 again with my second section. Of course, they stuck the IV back in after about 6 hours with my first one, because some mental midget decided I had an infection because I was "running a fever".

Is it normal to take out the IV more quickly if you have a spinal or epidural?

I keep my epidural in for about 17-18 hours. They don't take it out after I have the baby. Just wanted to make this clear in case I havent before. They leave the cath in and I am administered drugs on a times scheduled into the spinal column and as I need it I can dose myself. I also have a urinary cath during this time. However I could move, sit up in bed, eat, etc without pain. After the 17-18 hours was up, I had everything removed except they did dose my epidural cath up. I also request that I get antibiotics, so I get those in my IV after surgery -- some people do not do this, I do this as a precautionary thing and so do my doctors. As soon as everything is pulled out, and the epidural pain relief is still working, I get up and move, take a shower, etc. Now with my first csection I had an IV for nearly three days and was cathed over 2 days.


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## eleven (Aug 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald*
Part of me wants a vba2c.. and the other part of me says I am being selfish.

Just wondering what would be selfish about a vba2c?


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I have been wanting to come and join in the coversation here but haven't had the time. I do have a couple questions for those of you who have been through this before. First question is about my incision. It has been five weeks since my section and my incision has two little openings in it. This did happen shortly after returning home, about a week after. I saw a doctor for it and he said it was fine, they would heal up but I needed to clean it more, okay so I did and they closed up fine. It was like the stitches had just come off those two places too soon or something.

Well, now it is 4 weeks since that doctor visit and my incision is opening back up in those two areas. It stings a little bit there sometimes and there is a little bit of blood. Well, naturally there is blood seeing as the skin seems to have ripped back open after healing partially.

Has this happened to anyone? Did it heal up on its own okay? Should I see a doctor for it? I don't have my own doctor seeing as I used a midwife and got transfered so I don't want to go unless I have to.

Also, I am really bothered by this pain in my back from the epidural. It is just so sore! They stuck me 3 times trying to get it right. Is there any relief for this? It is making it really, really hard to take care of the baby and do housework.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't know...mine was gaping at a week, so i ran right in there. At 4 weeks i think there's more of a danger that the wound will have trouble healing - can you talk to your midwife? mine at least has experience with incision care.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Recovery after my emergency section was much shorter and easier than it was after the VDFH. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from VBAC, only saying that a vaginal delivery is no guarantee of an easier or faster recovery. I'm told that most people recover more quickly and easily from vaginal deliveries, but for me that has not thus far been the case, neither physically nor mentally nor spiritually.

That said, I'm hoping to have a VBAC next time around, but that's because I want a solo birth.














:LOL

Sarajane-- I would definately see someone about it. Try the midwife first, and if she doesn't know anything visit the doctor again.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Okay - the stuff about the epidural staying in for pain relief makes sense now, but it doesn't apply to me. I _hate_ having a needle put in my back at all, and I want that thing out as quickly as humanly possible after the surgery is over. I'd rather be in pain than have that thing in my back. The only reason I even agree to having it is because general anesthetic _really_ knocks me on my butt (discovered this with eye surgery prior to my first section) and because dh can't be there to see his baby come into the world if I'm under general.

I'm more amazed daily at how different everyone's experiences are. I think I'm an extraordinry wimp...


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pease*
Just wondering what would be selfish about a vba2c?










The climate here for vbacs is poor and for vba2c is very very very poor.. If I was even "allowed" to have one at the local hospital/birth center.. it would be with SO many restrictions.
So, I am thinking about an Hba2c.. but that means a Lay midwife, as CNMWs cannot attend homebirths in NY.. but lay midwifes are not legal either.. I think.. And I am pretty sure all the local OBs pulled their backup of lay midwives last year.. so.. it would mean going with no OB backup..

What are the risks.. which I am not entirely sure of..for either.. .. I have to decide if I am being selfish for wanting a homebirth vba2c....

Re: Open wound.. Have you tried Vitamin E or other homeopathic healing things? Silver?
Chantal


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

internally or externally? (e and silver?) Colloidal silver I assume? I am a little nervous about external stuff. Ok, hysterical actually because my incision is still open too (I am probably going back in today, we're at a week and a half post op.) My first incision was lumpy and painful and keloided. My last was perfect and pain free. And I am fearing the worst for this one. Luckily or not, I can't see past my belly. So when I glimpse the incision, oh my.

storm bride - as I understand it, the needle is used to get the epi started, but it's actually a small plastic tube that remains - no needle. Still oogy, but the idea of just the tube made me feel better. But I agree, anything indwelling is not my idea of a good time.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Chantald, just an option but I'm assuming that you will need to pay a lay midwife out of pocket anyway, is there anyway you could get care from an OB and then perhaps just labor at home (perhaps with your good friend who just also happens to be a lay midwife) and then go in if you run into trouble but otherwise "accidently" birth the baby at home??


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Chantald, just an option but I'm assuming that you will need to pay a lay midwife out of pocket anyway, is there anyway you could get care from an OB and then perhaps just labor at home (perhaps with your good friend who just also happens to be a lay midwife) and then go in if you run into trouble but otherwise "accidently" birth the baby at home??









I may have to, if I can't get OB backup.. I feel dishonest doing shadow care...









I think it would be harder to "accidentaly" birth the baby at home..and make the story sound believable








Not sure why I care about having them believe me tho..

Chantal


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Chantal,

What were the reasons for your two previous csections? (sorry I missed this) I know that the ACOG does not recommend VBA2C but also says they will leave it at the doctors discretion. I did discuss it with my doctor after I had my baby go vertex -- and she said that while she isn't opposed to doing them, I was not a candidate. (which I kind of figured)
Some of the things I found that make a VBA2C possible is if for the previous csections the reason you had them was malposition (posterior or breech). It seems if you can get baby vertex on the cervix that a VBAC is more likely to happen. (I think I read around 70%)

Kim


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## J-Max (Sep 25, 2003)

Good delivery vibes OTF, been thinking of you









I have had 3 sections: 1 emergency after 40+ hours of labor and a malpositioned baby, 2 "scheduled" but I only knew a day in advance (developing pre-e).

My scedulued sections were TONS easier recovery than my emergency. After the first, I had not slept for several days and could not stay awake. I was in bed for 2 days and in the hospital for 5. I was not back to "normal" for about 6 months.

I had spinals with duramorph for #2 & 3. This is AWESOME stuff







.With #2 I was in bed for about 12 hours and out of the hospital in 3 days. I was back to normal in 6-8 weeks. For #3 (birth story earlier in this thread). I was up about 8 hours after section, and went home 50 hours after. I was back to normal in a few weeks and did an 8 mile race walk at exactly 8 weeks pp.

I really think the sooner I am up after my section, the sooner I start feeling better. My cathater was removed as soon as I was up and walking.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Some of the things I found that make a VBA2C possible is if for the previous csections the reason you had them was malposition (posterior or breech). It seems if you can get baby vertex on the cervix that a VBAC is more likely to happen. (I think I read around 70%)

Kim

That's one of the stats I find reassuring. What I don't find reassuring is references to breech as a "non-recurring" problem. My babies were both breech, which makes me wonder if this one will be, too.

I'm becoming more pessimistic about VBA2C. I keep feeling that I'm going to end up with a section, anyway, so why fool myself. Last night, I woke up to pee at about 4 o'clock, and couldn't get back to sleep because I was worrying about this again. I've had a couple of months with a lot less stress about it, but it's coming back. I think my second section is the source of a lot of my stress. I let myself be talked into something I didn't think was okay, and I've been kicking myself ever since. I feel as though I wimped out and cost myself any chance of ever having a vaginal birth.

Sometimes I wonder if I should try a homebirth...although the only local midwife I found is already booked solid for July. It would feel weird switching care providers this late, anyway. But, I don't want an IV, I don't want an epidural, and I don't want a scalpel anywhere near me...whether for an episiotomy or another section.

I hope I hit another "up" soon...5-6 weeks of this mental state would be grim.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessmcg*
I really think the sooner I am up after my section, the sooner I start feeling better.

Getting up helps a little...because I know I'm getting closer to being able to get out of the hospital and away from the "help" of the nurses.

Okay, ladies - any idea what's wrong with me?
This whole "recovery from a scheduled section is so much easier" thing seems to be almost universal. And, if anything, it took me _longer_ to get back to "normal" with my scheduled one. I had intermittent pain at both ends of the incision site, especially when lying on my side (to nurse, for example) for months. I had _nothing_ like that with my first one. With the first one, I was basically recovered by my 6-week checkup, and then spent the next few months rebuilding muscle tone and fitness and getting back to normal.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Lisa,

Your posts show so much pain you are in and I don't know if there is anything at this point I can say to reassure you or to even advise you on how to get the birth you want.

I do think you need to find some peace. And I don't think you have that, about having a VBAC or having a csection. Consider talking to a professional. This is dominating your pregnancy it seems, and that can't be healthy. I would love to see you feel at peace with what will come AND enjoy these last weeks of your pregnancy.

If there is something I could do to help facilitate that, I will do it.

Kim


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I'd been thinking about counselling before I came here, but I really have been feeling better the last couple of months...I don't know what set me off this time at all. It might be because I've had the tooth extraction, followed by a really bad head cold. I'm feeling so run down and overwhelmed that it's bringing back the whole "post c-section" period that I hate so much. I'll see how I'm feeling in a few days - if my cold's gone, I may find it's mostly illness-induced funk (I'm very prone to that). And, I'll see my OB on Thursday - maybe I'm just freaked about that.

Thanks, Kim...I feel like I'm just being a giant whiner, and I don't like that at all. I honestly don't think anything could bring me peace about another c-section, but I do remind myself that I got pregnant knowing that was the option the doctors wanted to take...so it's not like it's unexpected.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Thanks, Kim...I feel like I'm just being a giant whiner, and I don't like that at all. I honestly don't think anything could bring me peace about another c-section, but I do remind myself that I got pregnant knowing that was the option the doctors wanted to take...so it's not like it's unexpected.


Maybe you could find peace though in having a another csection? Have you thought about meditating on just having your baby born the way he/she is meant to be born, no matter how that is? I guess with me, the peace comes from the fact that having children vaginally is just not an option. Nothing I could have done or did do could change the necessity of having a cesarean.

I know in watching others have surgery, not just cesareans, that preparing and anticipating a good outcome often helps with healing. Going into something with regret or burden often manifests itself in our healing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

That does make sense. I'm very prone to emotional problems - I've fought with depression (often suicidal) my whole life. This seems to be just one more manifestation of it.

And, I think there's a lot of self-blame here this time. I really allowed myself to agree to my last section without looking into it enough or asking enough questions. I assumed VBA2C wouldn't be a problem (in my VBAC research, I'd come across quite a few references to them) and didn't ask. I'd also wanted to labour first, so that dd might turn. The OB said that wouldn't happen because she was too big, and I just folded. And I really think that's why I had the milk supply issues I had...

I'm rambling again...guess I just feel like I brought this one on myself, and that maybe dd's wasn't necessary, either. It bugs me to think that, but I really do. There's other stuff - interpersonal things, and stuff about my relationship with a few women I know....specifically my sister...that I think is making things worse, as well.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
That does make sense. I'm very prone to emotional problems - I've fought with depression (often suicidal) my whole life. This seems to be just one more manifestation of it.

And, I think there's a lot of self-blame here this time. I really allowed myself to agree to my last section without looking into it enough or asking enough questions. I assumed VBA2C wouldn't be a problem (in my VBAC research, I'd come across quite a few references to them) and didn't ask. I'd also wanted to labour first, so that dd might turn. The OB said that wouldn't happen because she was too big, and I just folded. And I really think that's why I had the milk supply issues I had...

I'm rambling again...guess I just feel like I brought this one on myself, and that maybe dd's wasn't necessary, either. It bugs me to think that, but I really do. There's other stuff - interpersonal things, and stuff about my relationship with a few women I know....specifically my sister...that I think is making things worse, as well.

Here is question, hope you dont think its rude, but both your babies were breech -- don't you think its possible they were breech for a reason and that having a csection was necessary? have you been given a reason for why your babies may have been breech?

I still think counseling might be a good idea, also, have you ever taken medication for the depression? I would really like to see you have a happy babymoon.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

No idea why my baby's were breech - the doctors don't know, either. I know ds turned from a near-perfect vertex position to a frank breech while I was in labour (could feel him turn...although I didn't know what it was). DD turned very late, as well...about a week before my due date.

I've taken Serzone for depression...then I kicked my ex out, which was even better medication. I haven't had any problems in the last few years - not until I got pregnant with this one and started thinking about more surgery...then...whammo.

I just posted another thread, anyway. I've taken over your support thread with my whining.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
No idea why my baby's were breech - the doctors don't know, either. I know ds turned from a near-perfect vertex position to a frank breech while I was in labour (could feel him turn...although I didn't know what it was). DD turned very late, as well...about a week before my due date.

I've taken Serzone for depression...then I kicked my ex out, which was even better medication. I haven't had any problems in the last few years - not until I got pregnant with this one and started thinking about more surgery...then...whammo.

I just posted another thread, anyway. I've taken over your support thread with my whining.









Shannon, I don't think you are whining. This is what this thread is for, to hash and talk things out. I am really sincere in wanting you to enjoy the last bit of your pregnancy, to have peace with no matter how you birth, and to have a joyful baby moon. I'm really glad you are here!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks.









At least I'm still loving it every time the baby kicks...it keeps the funk from getting too deep.

*sigh*
I've just discovered the downside of CD'ing. My washing machine just blew up and started spraying hot water everywhere. And, all my diapers are in there - soaking wet, but not clean. UGH!!!


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Chantal,

What were the reasons for your two previous csections? (sorry I missed this) I know that the ACOG does not recommend VBA2C but also says they will leave it at the doctors discretion. I did discuss it with my doctor after I had my baby go vertex -- and she said that while she isn't opposed to doing them, I was not a candidate. (which I kind of figured)
Some of the things I found that make a VBA2C possible is if for the previous csections the reason you had them was malposition (posterior or breech). It seems if you can get baby vertex on the cervix that a VBAC is more likely to happen. (I think I read around 70%)

Kim


Kim
My first was an induction that cascaded into many interventions.. I pushed for 3 hours but the baby was a transverse arrest.. he was head down but facing sideways...He was 9lbs
My second, I went into labor all on my own.. got the the BC at 9 cm.. pushed for 4 hours and she was in an OP front forehead presenting position.. Things started looking bad for DD and we decided to c/s... she was a bruised and beaten mess and not in great shape...







. She was 9 lbs 2 oz...








for some reason.. I can't get them to face the right way.. or have small babies...

Chantal


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chantald*
Kim
My first was an induction that cascaded into many interventions.. I pushed for 3 hours but the baby was a transverse arrest.. he was head down but facing sideways...He was 9lbs
My second, I went into labor all on my own.. got the the BC at 9 cm.. pushed for 4 hours and she was in an OP front forehead presenting position.. Things started looking bad for DD and we decided to c/s... she was a bruised and beaten mess and not in great shape...







. She was 9 lbs 2 oz...








for some reason.. I can't get them to face the right way.. or have small babies...

Chantal

Could their size be an issue? I know some people here believe that a body will not grow a baby too big to birth, but I think thats hog wash. Sure some women can have 9, 10 and 11lb babies but some can't -- and some that try to have problems. (my neighbor is one of them, as my MIL) Does your doctor have an idea why you can get to that point and then things not happen?


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## chantald (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Could their size be an issue? I know some people here believe that a body will not grow a baby too big to birth, but I think thats hog wash. Sure some women can have 9, 10 and 11lb babies but some can't -- and some that try to have problems. (my neighbor is one of them, as my MIL) Does your doctor have an idea why you can get to that point and then things not happen?


No... I will ask my MW again.... I don't eat much dairy.. none at all when pregnant.. so that isn't it.. maybe sugar...?? tho I do not get GDBs.
When I asked after DD was born, the MW said I just have a great placenta...









Sometimes I think I make no evolutionary sense....














: I was born quite premature.. only 4 lbs 6 oz..and survived due to modern medicine.. which at the time was no where like it is now for premies.. I was a sickly child.. and survived due to the wonders of antibiotics.... and I can't push out my babies.. but survive because of the wonders of modern medicine... Is this trying to tell me something









Sometimes that is depressing..








although.. as of right now.. DD is the last child... hahah.. she isn't sleeping this week/month :yawning:















I tell DH.. nature's birth control in action









Chantal


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## MizLiz (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi everyone,

This is a really interesting thread and I've enjoyed what I've read of it so far. I have two children, both c-section births. For my first birth (my ds) I went into labour spontaneously but it did not go well at all. I became very dehydrated after more than 12 hours of non-stop vomiting, I ended up with an IV, and a demerol injection so I could get some rest. It was really difficult to cope with the contractions after the demerol as I was really out of it at that point. I dialated to 3cm after 25 hours of labour and my water had broken. By 30 hours of labour my cervix had swollen closed to 2cm and my wonderful doctor was worried as my son's heartrate was quite slow and staying that way. I was fully ready for my c-section by the time I was wheeled into the OR. I was able to nurse him within an hour of being born and I had a great recovery. I wasn't sorry that I had had the surgery, it really seemed necessary and I was thankful that he and I both came out of it just fine.

When I became pregnant with my second (my dd) I was anxious from the start about how I was going to get this baby out of me! I wanted to try a VBAC but was worried about rupturing. At the same time, I knew that the risk of that happening was very low but I flip-flopped for the duration of my entire pregnancy whether or not I should go for it. My baby was measuring on the large end of the scale (bigger than my son did at the same stage) and my doctor didn't have a great deal of confidence that my body would do what it was supposed to do. I went to the OB who delivered my son and she couldn't recommend one way or the other for me as my labour had progressed so poorly the first time and my baby looked much bigger. I searched the net for more info on VBACs and read everything from the woman who had an unassisted birth on a beach after six sections, to the woman who ruptured without realizing it and ended up with a stillborn baby and a hysterectomy. I ended up going for an elective section and but was not super comfortable with what I was doing. I was really nervous and stressed out but everything went quite well and my baby ended up being born *more than a pound smaller* than my son was. I had a much longer recovery the second time around, most likely because I had more than one child to care for.

I do have mixed feelings about my second section as it wasn't nearly so evident that things wouldn't have worked out but I don't feel terrible about it. I was really trying to make the decision that I thought would be safest for my baby and me and I just didn't have the confidence in my body to be able to do what it was supposed to do. One thing I do regret is that if I have another baby it will be very hard to convince anyone to let me try for a VBAC at the hospital here but I don't need to worry about that for a little while!

This ended up being much longer than I intended it to! Thanks for the great thread!
MizLiz


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## melixxa (May 20, 2003)

Hi everyone,

I just had my second my second baby via c-birth last Saturday. We're doing well, and I don't regret opting for a c-birth at the hospital over an HBAC here in the mountains. I guess I'll write my birth story up later ....

After leaving the hospital after only two days, I do have some new advice for those planning a c-biorth, though. DON'T do it! Especially if you have another small one at home.

Go here to see a picture of our new family member (!!): http://tealeaf5.diaryland.com/beyondreaso.html


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