# Unborn child US citizen?



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I'm sorry I don't have the exact link, I found this article on another forum I am part of:

Judge Questions Whether Unborn Child Is U.S. Citizen

UPDATED: 6:36 AM EDT May 28, 2004

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- A federal judge issued a stay on Thursday to a pregnant woman scheduled for deportation while attorneys look into whether her unborn fetus might be a U.S. citizen, affiliate station KMBC's Donna Pitman reported.

Is Fetus A U.S. Citizen? Do you think Myrna Dick's fetus is a U.S. Citizen? Thanks for answering our informal survey. Check back later for updated results. Yes No I'm not sure Myrna Dick (pictured, left) went to renew her papers with the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service last month, and she wound up in custody. Officials accused her of lying to border patrol officers in 1998 and said it was grounds for deportation to Mexico.

But Dick, who is married to an American citizen, is pregnant with her husband's child. Judge Scott Wright wants to know if the fetus is a U.S. citizen, and if so, whether it can be deported. The judge asked attorneys for both sides to search for relevant precedents before he would rule.

"Clearly, that isn't an issue either side had contemplated," Dick's attorney said.

Lawyers will review the case, then schedule a meeting with the judge. Authorities are not sure how long that might take.

Dick said her baby is a boy, and he is due in October.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Interesting.

If they decide the baby is a US citizen and they don't deport her until it is born in October are they going to split the mom & newborn up?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow. what a conundrum!

I don't think they should allow fetuses to have citizenships, what a dangerous precedent. citizenship is based on where you are born (in most countries) and your parents' citizenship.

good point about splitting them up, too. if they were going to do that, i'd tell the lady to get going now.


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## ObsessiveAndrea (Aug 14, 2003)

Do you really think if they deport her that she will leave the baby behind? Just because it MIGHT be a citizen of the US doesn't mean she has to leave the baby here.

I think that if the baby's father is a citizen then the baby has citizenship, regardless of the mothers citizenship.


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## Hera (Feb 4, 2002)

To me it sounds like the judge really doesn't want to have to deport this woman, and is looking for a reason to let her stay.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I agree with Piglet, I think that citizenship is determined by where you are born and not by who conceived you. Isn't there cases of both parents being from another country and they flee to america so the child will be born here?

Very weird case though, a fetus has quite a few rights these days.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Interesting. I too agree that citizenship is based on your birth. However, since the father is a US citizen, wouldn't that make the baby a citizen automatically? Even if the baby were born in Mexico?


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

If she's married to a U.S. citizen, why is she being deported? Surely he is/should be sponsoring her immigration.

America recognizes dual citizenship, so the baby would be an American born abroad. So wouldn't be able to be president.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

The baby's father is an American thus making the fetus an American (or will be when he/she is born)

Color me stupid I thought they would give you legal residency status (at least) if you were married to an American.

db


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## Iluvmy2 (Jan 23, 2004)

A child born to an American is not American Citizen by blood. A child is a born American Citizen if it is exactly that Born in America

But yea, if she is married to an American isn't she protected from deportation?


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## ObsessiveAndrea (Aug 14, 2003)

I was born in Germany to a german mom(in a german hospital) but my father was an american and so I was an american citizen. This was a choice made by my parents but it was still their choice.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Iluvmy2*
A child born to an American is not American Citizen by blood. A child is a born American Citizen if it is exactly that Born in America

You absolutely can be an American citizen by blood, not by birth. Let's say your father is living in France when he meets your mother. You are conceived and born in France. You are still considered to be a US citizen, because your father is.

My younger sister was conceived and born in Germany to American parents, and she is considered an American born abroad. Same rights as someone born in the States; she could even be president if she wanted.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

"In many circumstances, even though a child is born outside the United States, if at least one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of the child's birth, the child automatically "acquires citizenship" (the legal term for this situation). When this child marries and has children, those children may also acquire U.S. citizenship at birth."

http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/a...0AE7EC758B6391

I don't know about the deportation issue, however. Since there is no more INS and immigration is now under the Dept. of Homeland Security, things may have changed.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Yeah - I don't understand why this baby wouldn't be American because the Dad is American.

I'm American, and all three of my children have been born here in Scotland. They all have dual nationality (American and British, since my dh is British). They acquired American nationality at birth - all I had to do was go to the American Consulate with my passport, all the paperwork filled out, and a freaking HUGE fee (!) and that was that.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

good point about being married to a US citizen. was her deportation due to a criminal offense?

and yeah, the baby would of course be a US citizen due to the father being US.

While DD was born in the US, she was automatically a Canadian citizen due to both of us being Canadian. It was a simple matter of paperwork to get her passport and citizenship card when we were back home. I'm assuming it works the same way for children of US babies.

PS - didn't the US make some law to prevent pregnant foreigners from showing up here a couple weeks before their due date to ensure US citizenship? sounds like something INS would do, lol. Actually, Britiain has rather strict laws in this regard, and also severely restricts citizenship to those born in british colonies (one nasty side effect of british colonialism was suddenly realizing that all those "*******" could come and live on the Island, so they took care of that one right quick!)


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:

You absolutely can be an American citizen by blood, not by birth. Let's say your father is living in France when he meets your mother. You are conceived and born in France. You are still considered to be a US citizen, because your father is.
Uh. no.

There are other technicallities too. Because of when I was born, I'm not an american by "blood" either, although I could get a student visa...

Basically, my dad had to be in the states for 10 years prior to my birth (he is the 3rd or 4th gen american and has Native American ancestry). But he wasn't. He can only account for 9 years 5 months and 3 weeks, and 5 of those are before he was 15 (which passes part of the requirement).

So, even though my dad was in the military (although he was awol at the time) and I was born during wedlock AND he claims me as his daughter, I'm not an American.

See, the other thing he forgot to do was register my birth with the american consulate. Either one should have actually before I turned 18.

Yeah, I went through this with INS for 2 years before I gave up. I don't know how many times I've been told that yes, there was a green card for me when none has ever shown up.

The US has a nasty habit of not recognizing the children of its armed forces, especially during the Korean and Vietnam wars. M*A*S*H did at least one show on it.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Yes - there are funny rules if people haven't lived in the US (even though they are American citizens) for a certain number of years. I've looked into this a bit, because although my kids had American citizenship at birth (since I lived in the States from birth until I married dh and moved to the UK), they won't automatically be able to pass on their American citizenship, because they won't have fulfilled the residency requirements.

But I'm surprised that those requirements are an issue when the Dad is currently resident in the States AND the baby was born in the States?

Mamid _ there is an expedited American naturalisation process one can go through if one's American GRANDparents fulfill American residencey requirements. So any of my grandchildren could travel to the States and become naturalised American citizens very easily (even if my children never live there) because I (as the grandparent - many, many years from now) fulfill the residency requirements.

Clear as mud?! Might be worth looking into, though, if this is an issue...


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## ma2maya (Jun 12, 2003)

On the question of "Can they deport her if she is married to an American?" If I remember my immigration law classes correctly, they can if she is not a naturalized citizen. If she has been in the states for just a few years, she most likely is not naturalized, this is a long drawn out process.

INS can revoke residency status on certain legal grounds and deport that person. A biggie is the commision of a crime. It sounds like this woman has commited a crime by lying to a federal officer. Quite honestly, this seems to be a silly reason and criminal basis for deporting somebody. Of course, if she lied to the border patrol officer and gained illegal entry to the U.S. b/c of it, that is two-fold. Illegal entrance(and getting caught) into the U.S. can get you barred from ever being allowed in again, to say the least of gaining residency or citizenship.

Also, I am an American citizen(by birth), my dd was born in Mexico to a mexican father. She has dual citizenship.


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## spatulagirl (Feb 21, 2002)

There are so many freaking rules and regulations when you try to get your American citizenship. Ugh. I finally gave up and will be applying for my greencard in the fall.

I was born in Canada to an American mother. She moved to Canada when she was 23. Because I was born when she was 26 I can apply for US citizenship but my youngest brother born over a decade later cannot.

Of course I have been trying to get my US citizenship for years and have had nothing but problems but that is because I have been trying to get it while living overseas.

DS was born in Japan and was automatically a US/Canadian citizen. We just had to make it official by filling out the paperwork and paying the passport and registration fees.

This babe will be born in Italy and same deal. Easier for us to do the US citizenship though because we are on a military base. The Canadian citizenship is a bit more drawn out.

This woman shouldn't be deported unless she broke the law... Sounds almost like they are making an example of her.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reader*
You absolutely can be an American citizen by blood, not by birth. Let's say your father is living in France when he meets your mother. You are conceived and born in France. You are still considered to be a US citizen, because your father is.[/b]

From my *super* limited experience in International Law, I seem to remember that it's not that cut and dried. I believe (could be wrong) that if the mother is a U.S. citizen, then the child is automatically, as well. If the child is born on foreign soil, though, and the mother is not a U.S. citizen but the father is, the father must take specific steps (such as actively supporting the child, establishing a relationship with the child, etc.) before the age of majority to claim the child in order for him/her to have U.S. citizenship.

I'm not sure how marriage of the parents changes this, but it's definitely a departure to be assigning U.S. citizenship to the fetus of a woman who is not legally a U.S. citizen.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
See, the other thing he forgot to do was register my birth with the american consulate. Either one should have actually before I turned 18.[/b]









I remember reading a case of a young woman from South America who found her father a few days after her 18th birthday. He never knew she was existed, but immediately sought to establish a relationship with her. She was unable to acquire U.S. citizenship based on paternity because he had not taken the requisite steps before she reached the age of 18.

I think the logic behind the policy is some malarky about encouraging relationships between fathers and children - i.e., encouraging fathers to take responsibility for their foreign-born children when they are small. Unfortunately, if the father doesn't do so, it's only the child that suffers because s/he can't claim her/his "birthright" (if s/he wishes to) unless the father gets off his/her duff and makes an effort. There's no penalty for the father. And in cases where the father never knows of the child, as above, apparently the U.S. government has decided that the legitimacy of their relationship has a shelf-life. There are no favors for children and fathers who find each other later in life and would like to establish a relationship.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragonfly: you are correct.

It is not that cut and dried.

I recall from nearly forty years ago George Romney tried to run for President. One of the ways his opponents within his own party tried to discredit his candidacy with were the fact that he was born in Mexico to renigade Mormons who wanted to continue the practice of polygamy after Utah delegitmize the practice in order to become a state.

One needs to be a natural born citizen according to the Federal Constitution in order to be President. The fact that he was born to people who were probably American citizens (they lived in a U.S. territory, not yet a state) did not automatically make him a citizen.

I wonder why this judge is making a ruling like this ... he claims he is using the new 'Connor' Law. I do not see how he feels he is protecting this fetus or fetal rights. I do not see the connection.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

The only time a child of american parents can be considered american when born on "foreign soil" is when the child is born to parents in the service and on the base.

Other than that, citizenship is not automatic.


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## JodiM (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

Color me stupid I thought they would give you legal residency status (at least) if you were married to an American.
Nope, not in the least. Dh has been trying to get legal standing in the US for years. No luck.

If the baby is born outside the US, they have to fill out paperwork and basically get citizenship for him. This is supposed to be first priority, and generally only takes a matter of weeks... HOWEVER, the mexican government also has a say in it if the baby is born on their soil. (Not sure how much, but I know they can enter a dispute?)

The baby *should* qualify for dual citizenship, I know Adriana does, as will the new baby... we just decided against it for them. US citizens are enough for us.

***Oh, and your nationality is where you're born at, doesn't matter what your parents are*** Sorry, don't remember who said it.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
The only time a child of american parents can be considered american when born on "foreign soil" is when the child is born to parents in the service and on the base.

Other than that, citizenship is not automatic.

http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/a...0AE7EC758B6391

Scroll down and you can see how the laws have changed over the years. What may have been one person's experience would not be what a child born today would experience.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

here's a link to the article i found about it:

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky...on/8559396.htm

quote: _Family members say Myrna Dick moved to the United States with her parents when she was a young girl. The family lived in Dallas where she was raised and went to school. As an adult, she kept her work permit current, had applied for permanent status and, according to family members, never had any legal trouble....

If Myrna is deported, he said, he will quit his job and sell the house, following her to Mexico.

"They will have deported me, too."_


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

From what I have read, she is an illegal alien who came here with her parents and has been working with false documents; she now has a FEDERAL GOVERNMENT JOB with these documents.

This is somewhat an embarassment to the feds for sure.


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## DarkHorseMama (Mar 8, 2003)

With the topic at hand, there are two issues that come into play, specifically, when concerning international law and citizenship. Most countries recognize two statues for citizenship:

_Jus soli_ is the "law (or right) of the soil" whereas an individual is considered to be a citizen based upon the place of their birth.

_Jus sanguines_ is the "law (or right) of blood" whereas one is considered a citizen based upon the nationality of one's parents or family.

My DH is a US permanent resident and a South African national. Our DD and DS are US citizens by birth _jus soli_ and potential South African citizens by legacy of _jus sanguines_. The legacy citizenship is not automatic and we would have to file with the South African consulate to sort that all out.

Children born to active diplomat parents are *not* considered to have _jus soli_ rights to citizenship as they are exempt.

Marriage to a US citizen does not automatically confer residency to the spouse either. There are more than enough hoops to jump through in order to attain that carrot as well.


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Geesh, now we're giving citizenship to _unborn_ babies? Holy mackrel! This is dangerous stuff in regards to other issues not just citizenship issues. Give me a break!


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## deethai (Jan 15, 2008)

That would be cool, citizenship for a fetus.

Imagine ...

You would not need to stay until you give birth while you take advantage of birth tourism anymore!

You fly to one of the countries that apply Jus soli while you are still comfortable and safe to fly, say in your second trimester, you apply for citizenship for the fetus, complete passport application for the fetus using your Ultrasound photo, lol









You are back at home for the birth and your baby has an additional citizenship already, you might have to update the passport with a new photo after birth, but who cares









Or even better, you fly to even another Jus soli country for the actual birth and get yet another citizenship for your baby.

In this case your baby now has 4 citizenships, assuming you and the father have different citizenships that you pass on to the baby through Jus sanguinis.

The best presents you can give it, freedom to move without visas when it's older, freedom to attend schools in different countries, buy property in different countries and so on.

But until you can get citizenship for a fetus, you'll just have to put up with staying in the desired country for the actual birth and be happy with up to 3 automatic citizenships at birth, the mothers, the fathers through Jus sanguinis and the third one from the country you went to give birth in by taking advantage of Jus soli.


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## kateena (Jun 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid* 
The only time a child of american parents can be considered american when born on "foreign soil" is when the child is born to parents in the service and on the base.

Other than that, citizenship is not automatic.

Nope- unless you are referring to citizenship being automatic, there are plenty of possibilities a child born on foreign soil can be an American citizen. This is what the American embassy in Bern says:

http://bern.usembassy.gov/birth_abroad.html

It doesn't matter whether it's the father or the mother- I think what previous posters were referring to was the possibility of getting citizenship when the parents aren't married. There's also a clause that makes it possible for a grandparent to apply for citizenship for a grandchild, but they don't really come forward with any info on that.

As far as I can tell the question isn't whether the child will be an American citizen- if the father is American, the child will be as well. I *think* it's more about the possibilities of deporting a woman who's carrying an American citizen, which seems pretty bizarre to me. Won't she be able to travel back to the States as the wife/mother of an American citizen?


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Um...well since the mother is MARRIED to a U.S. citizen, and he FATHERED the baby who the heck doesn't believe that the yet to be born baby is a citizen?!


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Did anyone notice this thread is almost 4 years old????


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamsInDigital* 
Did anyone notice this thread is almost 4 years old????


No, I didn't! How


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamsInDigital* 
Did anyone notice this thread is almost 4 years old????

yes, I was







at why this was bumped from 4 years ago. Was hoping it was due to an update on the case at least.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

huh...even though it's old, it made me pause
I don't know what my baby is. I'm Canadian who moved here (US) to be with my now husband. At the border they gave me a 10 day visa and told me we either had to get married before that time was up or I had to return to Canada. We went to the JOP and made it 'official' but had our ceremony a year later. We went to an immigration lawyer who said I cannot work but I can stay. 6 years down the road we have a one year old with an american birth certificate and SSN. This whole time I've only done housewifing and volunteer work (or a little bartering). We just make it paycheck to paycheck and can't afford all the paper work







Anyone have ideas what I should do?


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