# I think I hate my child



## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

My 3 y/o . . . . .where to start . . . . . .

He is a terror. A complete terror. I am not exaggerating in anyway and I am about to loose my cool with him.

He is definately spirited! We are having him evaluated by a behavioral pediatrician but that's going to be a while before it happens. They have quite a wait list.

My 3 y/o is constantly bouncing off walls, jumping on furniture, playing rough with his toys and his baby brother, constantly doing things I ask or tell him not to do (hit his brother, playing in the sink, pooping on the floor, throwing toys . . . the list could go on), yelling and screaming, won't nap . . . . I don't think there is a single minute of the day that I am stopping him from doing something he shouldn't or that I am not upset with him for something he has done.

Now, that said . . . this goes way beyond a typical 3 y/o's behavior. I'm done. I can't do it anymore. I need help!!!! I really am starting to think I hate this child.

Does anyone have any encouraging words, suggestions, info on why he acts this way??

HELP ME!!!!!!!


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## noodle4u (Jul 19, 2002)

Im no expert but heres the things that pop into my head
-Does he watch TV? -does he get lots of outside time?
-does he get lots of whole foods-especially veggies to eat?
-Have you tried eliminating dairy, wheat, sugar, preservatives, flavourings,colourings,ect..blah blah from his diet?
Umm, what else? -does he get some one-on-one time with his parents?
-Maybe his life is too hectic, or not busy enough
-does he get to make choices?
-Any possible allergies to pets in the house?

I hope you get the advice you are looking for-and by the sounds of it a much needed break/rest.


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## fiikske (Jun 29, 2004)

Hi,

I'm also not an expert, but what I was thinking, maybe you're after him too much? It looks indeed like he has enough energy for two or even three, but has he the opportunity to free that energy?

Okay, hitting his brother is not a good idea, but perhaps you could refocus that energy to hitting something else. Have a go on the walls, hit the walls. Do you have carpets? Hang them outside, let him hit on that.

Playing in the sing? What is wrong with that? I agree it can become a mess, but if he's got so much energy, then perhaps he'll be helping with the cleaning too.

Throwing toys. Again, is it really wrong to throw toys? To me it seems that sometimes that is what toys are for ;-) If it's getting dangerous, make a game out of it. Throw toys into the toysbasket. And have a good laugh each time it's a succes?

You write:

Quote:

I don't think there is a single minute of the day that I am stopping him from doing something he shouldn't or that I am not upset with him for something he has done.
I would get really nervous if someone was there constantly behind me telling me I shouldn't do this and that. So _what_ can I do?

It is very possible that your child is highly sensitive, but to me it still sounds like a normal child that tries to vent its energy.

Fiikske


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Thanks Fiiske but I can assure you that it is not just a normal child behavior. He was tested for sensory integration disorder but it seems no one really wants to label him that. They just say he has sensory issue.

I'd respond more to what you have said but my brain is fried at the time and I couldn't possibly put together a good rebutle.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Why a rebuttle?

When did these behaviours begin?

I know there are legitimate behaviour disorders such as autism, that benefit from a diagnosis, but what you described sounds within normal, assuming your son can make eye contact, show affection, and speak.

I would eliminate all preservatives, dyes, television, and spend most of the day outdoors for 6 months before even considering a "diagnosis" for this. You need to find ways to center yourself, and this will help him to center.

Hugs to you both.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I would eliminate all preservatives, dyes, television, and spend most of the day outdoors for 6 months before even considering a "diagnosis" for this.


That's what I would do, too (right after I beat my head against the wall). I'd focus on diet - it's such a HUGE part of behavior. I'd go totally whole foods, no sugar. It's more stressful initially, but gets to be old hat pretty darned quick.

I'd keep the little one out of his reach as much as possible and then focus on showing him the "can" for all of the "can't"s. It's not okay to throw toys at little brother, but you can throw toys through this hoop. Make it a game - how many can he get in the basket? Or set some toys up and give him a ball to let him roll at the toys like a bowling ball. There are sharp things in the sink, so let's put water in the tub and play or in a bucket and take it outside. It's not okay to jump on the furniture - maybe have a spare mattress that he can jump on? Or see if you can find a little trampoline secondhand. Playing rough with his toys? Honestly, I've had to let this one go. My son is SO rough with his toys. I remind him that if he's too rough, he's going to break them and then he won't have them to play with anymore. (I don't nag, I just say it very matter of factly, "Babes, just so you know, what you're doing to that toy might break it.") And that's all I say about it. He inevitably breaks it and it either goes in the trash (and he gets upset) or he finds a new way to play with the broken part.

Obviously you're frustrated (who wouldn't be?!). He's probably equally (if not more) so. Unless there's much left out of your post, though, it sounds as though you've come to see his energy as something totally negative - spiteful, almost - and, so, he's in a "place" where he can't do anything right. Energy is a GREAT thing. Try to keep in mind that it's going to serve him very well someday to be so energetic, determined, perseverant (that's what gets me through the days, anyway :LOL). Then try to channel it for good.

If you want to go over specific scenarios, I'm sure the ladies on this board can help out.

Beyond that, I just want to offer a







. I know how hard it can be.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Intensity Momma















- BTDT. I don't really think any of these suggestions, although well intended, are very helpful. You do need to find other mommas who know that this is a kid whose brain is different than other kids. I had/have one of these. We went through years of hell together. I got a bunch of diagnoses- ADD, Tourettes, Bipolar, just a brat, bad mommy. The things I found most helpful- keep him safe and focus on loving as many minutes of the day that you can. Get support. Don't beat yourself up. Get more help. Pass him around to other people so he can't wear you out. If you are getting an assessment, what do you think it will say and if it does, what would you do? I mean if they say he has a serious neurological problem are you willing to consider medications? If you are- maybe you just need to give them a try. You need something soon. Kids like this can destroy perfectly healthy parents. Try and see it like a storm, or a fit instead of a behavior. Just hold him until it passes. I don't know how I did it but he is a beautiful (underemployed) adult today who appreciates me so much for hanging in there. And that is really all I could do- hang on and live through it. Bless you. My heart hurts for you.


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## China white (Mar 29, 2004)

After reading your posts, I felt like you needed a







. Many of the mamas here have already given you some excellent advice re: diet and re-direction, and MsMoMpls was right on the money!







This sounds alot like my son, and she is so right when she says behavior like this can destroy parents.
It's so hard when people around you say "oh ~ my child does the same things". If they could spend just *1* day, morning to night, in your shoes, they would see that this is _not_ normal childhood behavior, I assure you.

Lots of







s and prayers being sent your way, mama. Take things one day at a time, and most of all, *DON'T BLAME YOURSELF.* This is the way your son is programmed, _not_ a result of something you've done or failed to do. Tell yourself this everyday.

I hope you find a solution soon.








Feel free to PM me ~ I'm right there with you.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I don't really think any of these suggestions, although well intended, are very helpful.

Out of curiosity, what do you find not helpful? What I see are suggestions for refocusing on the positive as opposed to the negative. No one is saying it should be easy - just that it's necessary. How is that not helpful?

Quote:

The things I found most helpful- keep him safe and focus on loving as many minutes of the day that you can.
Oddly enough, I think this is the implied message of most of the posts above.


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## teachermom (Nov 21, 2001)

I also have a child that is high needs, high energy, exahusting, super smart, etc...he is also sid, adhd, oppisional defient disorder, and posibly bi-polar. lots of hugs to you.

my approach to managing him is to get him past this moment/behavior. I ask for help from others who can handle him often. I work really hard to give him reconition for good moments/behaviors.

I forgive myself my mistakes. I forgive him his.

keep trying.


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## teachermom (Nov 21, 2001)

I wanted to come back and add that my child is twelve now. each year it has gotten a tiny bit easier. I have continued to learn new parenting skills. he has learned to control it a bit better.

I really like him at twelve. I often hated him at three. the guilt was incredable and it slowed down my growth as a parent for several years. Once I accepted that this was just who he was not what he was doing _to me_ , I was much more able to love him for the wonderful child he could be. It also helped to realize that while my reactions to him contributed to his issues...I was not the cause of them.

there are things that you can try to work on his issues...homeopathy, providing lots of structured active outlets, working on diet (elimating milk was a big one for us), therapy (to work on new parenting skills for you and to give him another outlet to vent some of his energy in), etc.

do things for you too. find someone who can give you a break from him...and use them. journaling is helpful to some people. do something active yourself. pick one behavior of his that you have a hard time with and work for three days to respond differantly each time he does it.

You can not make him change but he may respond differantly to you if you change the way *you* act.

just offering some of the things I've learned over the years...


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Out of curiosity, what do you find not helpful? What I see are suggestions for refocusing on the positive as opposed to the negative. No one is saying it should be easy - just that it's necessary. How is that not helpful?

\

I don't mean to sound snarly- it is just I don't think parents whose children are "normal" understand that when you get to your last nerve, have tried everything and nothing has worked- hearing "focus on the positive, be patient, be kinder, etc." ends up feeling like- "you haven't really tried everything, you aren't really at wits end." I heard her despair because it has been my own and reacted from there. I apologize.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

You've gotten some good suggestions about the dietary possibilities. My suggestion would be to organize your house (baby-proof) it so that there are as few "no's" as possible. If throwing toys is a problem, only have soft toys in reach. Save the hard toys for when you know he's in a mood to handle them. If climbing furniture is a problem, make sure it is all anchored first, so you know he'll at least be safe from the furniture falling on him. Maybe put couch cushions on the floor so he can have something to jump on, if that is the reason for his climbing. Keep the baby out of his reach at all times.

I wonder if switching your attitude from seeing him as a child capable of controlling himself who is just disobeying you to a child that isn't capable of controlling himself and is trying desperately to make sense of why mama is always upset might help. While 3 year olds are at a stage of boundary testing, they really aren't out to get you. So, maybe he is developing differently, and not able to control himself. From his perspective, that must be very frightening.








s to you both. I hope you get some answers and relief soon.

Bec


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *China white*
After reading your posts, I felt like you needed a







. Many of the mamas here have already given you some excellent advice re: diet and re-direction, and MsMoMpls was right on the money!







This sounds alot like my son, and she is so right when she says behavior like this can destroy parents.
It's so hard when people around you say "oh ~ my child does the same things". If they could spend just *1* day, morning to night, in your shoes, they would see that this is _not_ normal childhood behavior, I assure you.

Lots of







s and prayers being sent your way, mama. Take things one day at a time, and most of all, *DON'T BLAME YOURSELF.* This is the way your son is programmed, _not_ a result of something you've done or failed to do. Tell yourself this everyday.

I hope you find a solution soon.








Feel free to PM me ~ I'm right there with you.

Thank you China White. Your kindness is much appreciated!


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I don't mean to sound snarly- it is just I don't think parents whose children are "normal" understand that when you get to your last nerve, have tried everything and nothing has worked- hearing "focus on the positive, be patient, be kinder, etc." ends up feeling like- "you haven't really tried everything, you aren't really at wits end." I heard her despair because it has been my own and reacted from there. I apologize.


Yes, yes, yes! I know I did not convey my son's actual behaviors very well in my first post. I was at my wits end and just needed to gets something out and it didn't come out that well. So that is my fault. Now, MsMoMpls is exactly right in that I often tell people about my son's behavior and I get the "oh he's just a normal 3 y/o" but I know that is not true and if they spent a day with him, they would know that too.

I also want to clarify that I do not ALWAYS look negativly at my son's behavior. He is incredibly smart and advanced in most of his skills, which I think makes things a little harder when dealing with him. His sense of consequences and impulse control are not advanced (maybe he is "normal" on these for his age) and I think this is what causes some of the problems. My son is a very bright, loving, friendly and playful kid. But . . . there are days when those wonderful traits are no where to be seen and he just keeps pushing and pushing ubtil I start to loose it. That being said, I never yell at him and tell him he is awful or anything. I just tell him to stop. Usually I only tell him that after he has done the exact same thing I have tried to redirect him from several times in a row. He is the kind of child that you can redirect until you fall down from exhaustion and once you let him go he's right back in the sink, hitting his brother, jumping on furniture . . . . . It is a major frustration.

One last thing . . . he does drink milk, although it is raw, organic milk. He eats mostly whole grains, fresh fruits and veggies, a little meat . . . . the only real proccessed food he eats are fruit snacks. Everything else is organic.

As far as a place or activity to use his excess energy . . . . he does need that. We are looking into a tumbling class.

Okay, well, I just put out a fire that the 3 y/o started on the stove. I need to open some windows and get the smoke out. No, I am not a bad parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is just a quick, sly, smart little boy.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I'm sorry but I don't have any help and I'm not sure my words will even be all that encouraging but I can try.

I'm not sure if I'm just noticing because I'm now the mother of a 3 year old but I see SO MANY posts about the challenges of having a 3 year old child. They seem to be everywhere ~ Gentle Discipline, Childhood Years...It's as if threes are the new twos!

I'm having a terrible time and I'm finding myself not liking my child nearly as much as I did before.

My child is 'normal' but I still feel this way so I can't imagine how much more difficult this stage is for a high needs child.

Would you be interested in starting a support group for parents of 3 year olds? I'm actually not joking!

I think I'm going to start one tonight. Would you mind if I linked your thread because I may go through some of the recent threads and put them up on the new support thread. I think it would be helpful to see the spectrum.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

IdentityCrisisMama-
I think this is a WONDERFUL idea. You can go a head and link my post. I think I need the support of mama's who have either been here or are here.

Thanks a bunch

Jaime
(who is in a smoke filled house but has calmed the 3 y/o with an organic hot dog)


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Oh mama you need a day off to regroup for sure! Always remember the saying "this too shall pass" Make it your mantra! I definitely agree with the others about finding a way for him to burn up his excess energy. I hate to compare your son to a dog but I used to have a dog that would drive me completely nuts (tearing up everything, barking nonstop, scratching up the walls and doors, running in circles into things, etc) and then I finally came to my senses and started taking him to a nearby tenniscourt where he could run around fenced in and act as crazy as he wants. It helped immensely. Maybe he could participate in some kind of preschooler soccer.(my dh's suggestion) he said when he did soccer at 3-4 years old he basically ran back and forth through a field nonstop chasing the ball.
One of my playgroup friends suggests spraying lavendar and giving him lavendar scented baths.
Does he like puzzles? Try giving him some semi challenging puzzles.
I used to work at a preschool for children with assessed needs in developmental areas we had some boys who sound exactly like your son. What worked best was to structure the room with stations. Like in the beginning of the day he starts out in station 1-dress up after a certain amount of time he goes to station 2-puzzles, next station 3- books, station 4-food preparation, etc. Each time they finished a station they would have to take a picture we had laminated of them and stick it to a board listing the next station. This sort of discipline really help a lot. If you have any other questions let me know! I want to help!


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Let me just say that I was very hesitant to post this thread here . . . especially with the title I chose . . . which expresses my feelings and is not meant to be a "shock and awe" sort of thing.

I am very, very happy that I did post. The mama's who have responded have been very kind and have had great ideas.

Thanks again!


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Has your son always been high-needs? Or is this something that has started since he was three? We were at a wedding this summer, and I looked over, and my three year old son was repeatedly kicking his baby sister in the stomach (she was in crawl position). We had our eyes off him for maybe 5 seconds. Everyone was looking on in horror.

He was the most mellow baby and two year old. When he gets like this, we just have to get out of the house.

I agree that your son definitely has extreme behavior, not to downplay or minimize it as a stage. My son generally does pretty well, but he now has these "Mr Hyde" times that we never had to deal with before.

I would agree with pulling stuff out of the environment if he's throwing. I'd also ask myself if there are any triggers, and if there is anyone that he behaves better with. My son is an angel at other people's houses and nicer when daddy's around. It doesn't mean I am doing something wrong, it just means that I am "mom", and that comes with added baggage for little ones. We are the safe ones to go ballistic around. Lucky us.

Hope things get better.

L.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Why do you say its not normal childhood behaviour? Everything you've described sounds exactly like my son and then some! I always get told there must be "something" wrong with him. You know what? I refuse to label my child. There is nothing wrong with your son or mine. They are who they are. Portraying the message that there is something wrong with him (which a child can pick up on) will make him even more stressed and acting out. I honestly am not understanding why you are dismissing all of these good people's advice. How do you KNOW that they don't have a child the same and don't know what you are going through? Nothing you've said has been something my son hasn't done.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I have to agree with Heavenly. When my son was 3 he required, as Mad Eye Moony would have said in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire"..."CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!".

I am absolutely serious. I could never have trusted my son at 3 to control his impulses. I would never have left him alone near a baby, stove, sharp object, electronic object, unlocked door, water, you name it. He was also very bright and loving, there was nothing "wrong" with him. But he required constant and endless supervision.

I am not sure who you are comparing your son too. So compare him to mine. He is now 8 and the most wonderful boy. Imagine all of the good things about your 3 year old, minus the impulsiveness and aggression, plus great verbal skills. That is the 8 year old version of these kinds of 3 year olds. I'd say things started to get easier at 5, and improved each year from there.

I agree with Heavenly that you are assuming no one understands you. I understand you, I just don't agree your son is sick and needs professional counseling or medication. I believe you are meeting his needs by providing a loving home, good food, plenty of exercise, and firm guidance as he learns boundaries. It will get better.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Read my previous post. I am not dissmissing everyone's advice. I know that my child has issues. He has been getting speech therapy since he was 14 months old, OT since he was 2 and is now getting some behavioral therapy.

As far as labeling him . . . . I have NEVER in is presence said there is anything wrong with him or said he has sensory integration disorder or has slow speech developement. Do you think I want there to be something wrong with my child?????????? I don't!!!!!!!!! But mama instinct tells me something is not right here. My mama instinct has never served me wrong so far.

And yes . . . he has always been this way . . . since birth he has been "high needs". It is just now showing in different ways because he is not an infant anymore.

I never said my child was sick . . . just different. Also, the last thing I want for him is medication or proffessional councelling. However, I don't think having him evaluated is a bad thing. If I do not, and there is actually a real problem, isn't that doing him a disservice?


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

We have talked before about how similar our sons are and I wanted to offer one thing that works well for us and might work even though your son is a tad older.

I know a lot of people here are totally against all tv, but I have to say that music videos have worked wonders for Zane. Music seems to focus him in a way nothing else can. I especially like Cedermont Kids videos and they have things like "action songs" that are pretty neat, but all of them that I have are good. I set him up with the video and a variety of "instruments", lots of percussive type things from drums, maracas, and some world instruments (the cabasa is the loudest biggest hit around here) or just coffee cans and bowls ad things to hit them with. When I have just had *enough* I set this up for him and pop in a video in a room I can hear him, but don't have to be in so he can loudly sing, dance and make lots of noise banging on things. He loves it, and when I calm down I can really enjoy it and sometimes even join him. It focuses him and allows him to get out all the angst and energy in a more positive way.

Mostly, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone.

eta: kazoos are also great since they don't require fingering and the little tykes piano type things...no batteries and pretty durable. The one I have can be played like a piano type thing or you can bang on the metal pieces with a stick to make the sound.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
I am very, very happy that I did post. The mama's who have responded have been very kind and have had great ideas.

Thanks again!











PM me if you have any suggestions for the support thread, which I will work on tonight.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I am curious what led you to starting speech therapy at 14 months?


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Well, wrong or right you can debate, we noticed that many other children my son's age could make sounds . . . . if not words. Joe was very much an "AHHHHHHHHHHHH" kind of guy. It seemed to be very much in frustration. He wanted to communicate with us but just didn't know how to do it. We had him evaluated and the therapist agreed. Now, I hate calling it SPEECH therapy. Or goal was not to have him speaking in words or anything but to find a way to help him communicate his needs. We did this with sign language to begin with and as he got older . . . . we began to teach him actual words. He still gets therapy for speech issues, mainly for intelligibilty because he has a lisp.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh you did get back to it fast...edited to say that


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Intensity too, I only know what you are saying here. I don't know you or your son.

You titled your thread "I think I hate my child".

I would encourage you to examine your own attitudes towards interventions and therapy.

I am not judging those as right or wrong. I am saying that no amount of therapy will make you feel better about this child.

You have a bright, loving, energetic, healthy child. You said this yourself. It is up to you to decide to be joyful about that, while deciding how to handle his extra needs.

Maybe he does need all of this therapy, or maybe not, I can't answer that. I would encourage you to be very cautious however, in looking to therapies to improve your attitude towards him. That is just going to frustrate you both.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

I wanted to ask have you changed how you were handling discipline? I know we've talked about this before but its been awhile. If you have taken a more positive approach I would give it time to work itself out. He sounds like a good kid. I know you love him and you are frustrated. How do you think he "should" act? I wonder if you maybe expect too much. I think he sounds like every 3 yo boy that I see at the park. I'm sorry this is short and to the point but I'm pretty sick and my hands ache.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Yeah, okay . . . . my ATTITUDE towards my son is just fine. I guess you don't know what it is like to be frustrated by your child.

Now go away


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
Yeah, okay . . . . my ATTITUDE towards my son is just fine. I guess you don't know what it is like to be frustrated by your child.

Now go away









Who was that to? Me?


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
Now go away










:LOL

I hear you intensity! I have a child who is almost 4 and we have endless issues with him right now! he was assessed for speech therapy and does in deed have some lofty articulation disorders...but we are willing to give him a bit more time, but not too long! speech issues if left can be permanent and cause him social issues later in life.

I have a hard time understanding him, its frustrating for me and him and his siblings...I think in the end you need to do what you have to do! my son has some behaviour problems as well and I am just myself starting to wonder what we can do here to help him...(I know its not his diet)...I watched him beat on his younger brothers back today furiously because the younger one took a toy he had been playing with a few moments prior but had since put it down.

I am pretty sure he could glean some help from therapy...but in some ways I resent the intrusion into our lives that would take









Before I hear any comments from well meaning posters its worth noting I have had 8 children of my own so many experiences with which to compare and guage normative behaviour. I am not looking for advice just wanted to tell you Intensity that your not alone, parenting can be so trying!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Intensity too, please listen to yourself.

*you* title this thread "I think I hate my child". He is 3!

Please, don't be surprised when people suggest you may need to re evaluate your own attitude here, not just his.

You don't want to? Don't. Telling people to go away when they suggest that does make me wonder if it is closer to the truth than you wanted to admit.

And whether or not you choose to believe it, you are not the only person who has lived with the frustration of an intense, high needs 3 year old.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Your ds sounds like my dd. My mom, after dd kicked her in the shin, called her a terror when she was 3. I practically cussed my mom out, I was so angry. A few months ago, when dd was in a "mood", another parent called her "mean"--to her face.







: My child's behavior is difficult to understand, and to some difficult to "control", she may exasperate dh and me and occasionally other care-givers. But she's my Darling Darling dd. She is strong willed, sensitive, opinionated, she questions authority, determined, and wicked smart with a sharp sense of humor. She dances to her own (often loud, screeching) music. She is not easily intimidated. She'll go off on you if she sees you kill a bug and cry for its suffering.
I've been told she has sensory "issues" but her ped and the school is reluctant to have her tested because the tests are often geared to find educational problems, which dd clearly doesn't have. I'm okay with that. I don't want her to be labelled.
And the point of my post is that sometimes perspective makes all the difference. Learning to be a gentle parent when our child is often not gentle has been a very difficult lesson for dh and me to learn. I remind myself to respect dd's will and spunk, and try to funnel it into positive things. Not always easy! I also remind myself that she will be an awesome strong woman when she grows up, just like her aunt, who according to my MIL was very much like dd as a child.
I've sought other parents with children of similar temperment. This is sometimes hard because I won't go near playgroups.
A lot the the advice given here I was given, too. Some of it worked some didn't. I do limit dd's sugar intake, and when she has a "mood" I try to figure out what is triggering *that specific mood*. I've found a pattern: DD loses it when she has low blood sugar. So I always bring snacks wherever we go. I've been able to stave off many a tamtrum. I don't wear her out at outings, and at the first sign of overstimluation, we're outta there!
This may be counter to a lot of advice here, but sometimes dd really needs to veg, and I'll pop in a nice slow happy video, give her some apple and peanut butter or cheese and let her veg on her own. She loves "Yoga for kids".
The biggest help for us has been snacks snacks snacks, following her cues, allowing her to decompress, keep the rules simple, be consistent and always back up your words with actions. PM is you want more. I have to go pick up my terror.


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## MaWhit (Jan 5, 2002)

Have you considered making dietary changes? It couldn't hurt to eliminate all dairy for a month or more and see if it makes a difference. You might be surprised.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetfeet*
Who was that to? Me?

No :LOL Your post just got in the middle.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

:LOL I just get confused. I wish you and Joe all the best Jaime.


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## katnshell (Oct 21, 2004)

Of course being no expert but how old is your baby. Could he be reacting to the birth of a new sibling? (I am new around here)

What is he watching on t.v.? I have found when children (as a teacher) watch movies that contain violence, etc that they react in a manner that is what you just described. (referring to movies like Power Rangers)

Is there anything different in his life? New school, parent working different hours,etc.

I hope you get everything solved. Just remember no matter how bad it seems just look down at him when he is sleeping and think how much you do love him.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I know you probably just want to move on, Intensity, but I really feel obligated to discuss something that Heartmama said.

I just wanted to say that I have felt like I dislike my child from time to time and I know LOTS of mothers and fathers that have felt this way.

Hey, my parents are fabulous parents (and I think I'm a good judge being their 30 year old daughter) and I'm 100% sure they felt like they hated me from time to time, lol!

I say this because I think it's really important that we don't demonize parents or over react to statements like these. It gives the impression that it's not normal to feel like this. What this does is just pushes them under the surface where no one feels safe to talk about them. I think that we all know situations where this kind of 'taboo' stuff has caused great damage.

I could just go on and on about this but I'll let this get back to the OP and start working on that threes support thread.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i just started "raising your spirited child" by mary sheedy kurcinka. i'm guessing you've probably already checked it out since you said your dc is definitely spirited, but if not it might be worth a look. i got a lot out of her "kids parents and power struggles" book.

three can definitely be intense. my dd1 can be very vexing to her mama and daddy at times, but we do our best to muddle thru and try to remember she's only three she's only three she's only three she's only three...


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I know you probably just want to move on, Intensity, but I really feel obligated to discuss something that Heartmama said.

I just wanted to say that I have felt like I dislike my child from time to time and I know LOTS of mothers and fathers that have felt this way.

Hey, my parents are fabulous parents (and I think I'm a good judge being their 30 year old daughter) and I'm 100% sure they felt like they hated me from time to time, lol!

I say this because I think it's really important that we don't demonize parents or over react to statements like these. It gives the impression that it's not normal to feel like this. What this does is just pushes them under the surface where no one feels safe to talk about them. I think that we all know situations where this kind of 'taboo' stuff has caused great damage.

I could just go on and on about this but I'll let this get back to the OP and start working on that threes support thread.

Thank you!!!!!!!! This is my point. Except I'm not as good at saying it. I bet almost every parent has had or will have this feeling at some point. Now, I know no one wants to hear things like this but, in truth, some people can get so frustrated that they wonder, "hey, I think I hate my child". I am not one to always sugar coat what I feel or think. I feel this way. Someone out there has felt this way. I just want to know I am not alone in my feelings. That's all.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

beanma-

I have read it and I even have the companion workbook







I'll try the "he's just three" chant and see if it helps.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Intensity too, please listen to yourself.

*you* title this thread "I think I hate my child". He is 3!

Please, don't be surprised when people suggest you may need to re evaluate your own attitude here, not just his.

You don't want to? Don't. Telling people to go away when they suggest that does make me wonder if it is closer to the truth than you wanted to admit.

And whether or not you choose to believe it, you are not the only person who has lived with the frustration of an intense, high needs 3 year old.


I do not need to re evaluate my own attitude. It is fine. You would have been one of those women on Oprah who would have said you have never had a bad day as a parent :LOL Now, if you're not going to be supportive then go away. And I know I am not the only person who has lived with a frustrating, high needs three year old. That's why I started this post. To hear from other mother's who have been or are where I am.

AS for my attitude towards my son . . . . my psychiatrist has assured me it is fine


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## CJ 5 (May 30, 2004)

I have no skills in this area but I have wondered whether or not you could turn one room into a play room where everything is safe for him to explore. Put a tumble mat in there and toys that are in cupboards. Open one cupboard and let him play with those toys. I think our houses are not made for real parenting. Kids need to run and play. Maybe I might try schedualing an hour at the park a day and putting some routine into his life. Some kids are just high needs. I love walking on this walking path and seeing moms with their little three year olds peddaling away on their bigwheels while she pushes the baby in the stroller. I doubt you can wear him out but it might just save your sanity to get some fresh air.


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## LovinMyKids (Aug 3, 2004)

Well, mine is 9 now, but he was JUST like your ds (from the sound of it). i wish I could tell you that it gets better. But it really doesn't. The worst part about it, is many times these children are EXTREMELY bright, and it makes it that much harder. There are times when I feel like I just cannot stand to be in the same room with my son. I love him to pieces, but he grates on my every nerve (sometimes). I do think cutting out certain foods should work (red dyes, etc). Thats what they tell me to do, anyway. I am actually going on and on now with no real direction, so I will go away.

Just wanted to tell you I have been there, and I am here for support, mama!


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Just another idea about activities- swimming is great. Water is very soothing. I even think throwing them in a bath if they are having a rough day can be helpful (although very messy). I also have started using the kitchen sink with cups and spoons. Play Dough is also good for hitting. Boys need to hit. I don't know why. Hit balls, hit pillows, hit play dough, hit nails into wood- just don't hit the baby. Singing is also good- sing really loud in the car or even scream!!! A friend of mine lets her kids scream as loud and as long as they want on the highway. Just about everything "naught" that our kids want to do- they can do somewhere.

I am so glad lots of mommas are feeling supported. It has been a long time since I had a 3 year old but March is coming. I'll need all of you to remind me that "this too shall pass."


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I don't mean to sound snarly- it is just I don't think parents whose children are "normal" understand that when you get to your last nerve, have tried everything and nothing has worked- hearing "focus on the positive, be patient, be kinder, etc." ends up feeling like- "you haven't really tried everything, you aren't really at wits end." I heard her despair because it has been my own and reacted from there. I apologize.

It's no problem. I find it interesting, though, that you've presumed that everyone who's responded has a "normal" child (though I also take issue with the "normal" label).


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Have you tried posting in the special needs forum?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
I do not need to re evaluate my own attitude. It is fine. You would have been one of those women on Oprah who would have said you have never had a bad day as a parent :LOL Now, if you're not going to be supportive then go away.

I see nothing but support coming from heartmama.









And I seriously doubt that she's one that would say she's never had a bad day. What I see in her posts is an understanding that parents all have bad days. It's great to admit it - totally healthy (I'm sure your psychiatrist would be proud) and perfectly normal to feel like you hate your child from time to time. I feel it myself occasionally (today was one of those occasions). Loving our children so much brings out severe emotions of all kinds.

But I realize that when I feel that way it's not just because of something my son has done, it's because of the way I'm reacting to him. It's an inner struggle that's triggered by what's inside me, not just by his actions. His actions might be the catalyst, but the feelings are of my making.

Examining your own attitude - your reactions, your expectations (especially these!) - can take you a long way. If you're feeling that you hate your child and you're ONLY looking at his behavior, then you're not looking far enough.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Slow start but here it goes...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=208131


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

I really like the idea of an indoor playroom where EVERYTHING is safe for him to explore. Heck I'd even go buy a little tykes slide for it. Something he can go up and down to get some energy out. It sounds like he has lots and lots of energy. I'm not saying there isn't another issue but I think getting some of his energy out may mellow him some.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Identity Crisis Mama, I have not demonized anyone. I have not said that negative feelings are abnormal. I have said, very clearly, that what concerns me is the unwillingness here to accept that it is the *parent*, not the 3 year old, who must project a change for the positive, if you want it to happen!

*That* is what I am saying.

Intensity too. What can I say? You got me! My life has been so easy. I've never had a bad day as a parent. Oprah really should have my number on speed dial. Okay I am laughing, that was meant to be in fun. Before my son was 3, he'd had 2 open heart surgeries already. He had anger and fear issues like you wouldn't believe! We had some very bad days. And all it taught me, was that we must be grateful for what we have. We must discipline ourselves to think positive, to have faith in our child, to love the good days and love the bad days too. Our only control over the worst situations is to focus ourselves, our energy, and our beliefs.

I think you are a very strong, capable person, and a loving mother. I also think you can enjoy every day with your son, and part of that is your own beliefs about him.

If you are really just asking "Is it normal to think negatively about my child". then I'm sure everyone would agree it is normal.

I don't think it's acceptable to blame your child though, that you feel that way. That is what I am saying. That was all I said. I hope you see that.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Heartmama, I guess I just think your tone towards Intensity is a little hostile but I see that not everyone here sees that. But, I think that the advice that the parent has control over positivity on to the situation is good advice.

But, I also know that a good vent and getting these negative feelings out there is also very helpful for people. I see vent threads all over this board and rarely do I see people telling the OP that they should be happy for what they have as that would come off as insensitive.

I would also say that 'loving the bad days' is something that only a rare few people I know IRL can do and I'm not even sure that's great advice. It sounds as if you are suggesting that negative feelings are bad or something and I don't agree.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm sorry, I agree with heartmama. We've very recently found out my son most likely has bipolar (as do I and many other people in my family). We have already been doing dietary intervention for 6 months (no wheat, dairy, yeast, sugar, msg or chocolate). Now we have him on 2000mg of cod liver oil a day and he is doing so much better. It sounds to me as if intensity isn't even willing to try these things before getting her son evaluated. And the parent's attitude DOES need to change. Nobody saying its not hard to be a parent or that its wrong to be stressed but IMO hate is a really strong word and I would be concerned about anyone who would use it in regards to their child. What was the point of this thread if not advice? Only the advice that you want to hear? And then is someone says something, in all loving kindness, that you don't agree with you act rudely (and immature IMHO) by telling them to go away. Everyone always has room to change. Are you honestly saying that there is nothing about your interactions with your child that you could change? Wow wish I was that perfect!


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

weird things can cause hyper activity.

pork.
msg.
sugar
caffeine

actually there are HUGE lists of things that can make kids "flip out"...i don't know the list off hand, but i'll look into that for you.

i also recommend "how to behave so your pre-schooler will too" because sometimes we are doing things to cause "bad" behavior in our kids, and we don't even know it.


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## KristiMom (Jan 7, 2003)

I have done inhome day care for several years and for 2 years I had a 3/4 year old that sounds a lot like your son. He drove me nuts, he took a pitch fork to the side of my 5 year old daughters head.......I was right there, he was perfectly happy when.wahm! He used t o hit my little baby boy as well. Anyway, I did many of the things other people suggested. I was firm with him and did not give in because he wanted something. I made sure my two children were safe. I lost it sometimes and even did not watch him for a time. ( I know you don't have that option) But I gave him things to do to help him learn where HIS body was. I had tunnels for him to crawl through, had him play in the sand box a lot, any type of sensory experiences I could think of helped. He is now in KG and is a great kid! There is hope that your little sweety will mellow out.

I also had a cousins whose kid had the same sort of probelms. For her they figured out it was red dye. They were shocked at all the things it is in. Once they removed it her behavior improved.

I certainly don't know what the issue is with your child but hang in there!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

IdentityCrisisMama

I am sorry if something came across as hostile. I am not being hostile. I am sharing an honest opinion. I am not sure why you find that out of line in this thread? The OP sounds like a strong and capable person. She has used strong words here, and I am inclined to speak more openly within the tone she has set.

Quote:

I would also say that 'loving the bad days' is something that only a rare few people I know IRL can do and I'm not even sure that's great advice. It sounds as if you are suggesting that negative feelings are bad or something and I don't agree.
Okay, I plainly said in my last post that negative feelings are normal. Those were my exact words.

I can only restate my opinion for you ICMama. I think negative feelings are normal. When we are caught up in an ongoing lifestyle of being unhappy with a small child, a vital part of the solution is examining how our own attitude is contributing to the way we feel. Being aware of negative feelings is very different than letting those feelings determine what we believe about our child.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Okay- this is one of the things that I dislike about MDC. It seems like you cannot say what you feel without sugar coating it. If you do people pounce! I do not hate my child. I don't even feel this way everyday.

As far as trying other things before getting him evaluated . . . . you don't think I have?? Come off of it! I'm not one to throw my child at the medical field for their fun and pleasure.

I really resent what some people have said here. It hurts my feelings, and while I didn't expect everyone to respond positively, I thought everyone would respond with some tact. I guess that was too much to hope for.

Now, as far as telling heartmama to go away . . . . I had already responded to her post and she keeps posting over and over about the same attitude and expectations thing. I GET IT!! You don't have to keep posting about it.


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## Avima (Oct 16, 2003)

:
But seriously

I'm trying to think how I am going to word this. I hope it's not too deep.
To appreciate what true beauty is you must first know what ugliness is. You can only know true happiness when you've experienced sadness, and to know what true love is you must know what it is to "hate" (fear, actually). In English, you must experience the polar opposite of something to truly appreciate what it is.

(Hi Jaime, it's me, Dana!)









When happening upon this post my first impression was not that Jaime hates her child, but she is experiencing some very raw feelings and is obviously concerned for the safety and well being of both her sons. The younger because he is being terrorized by his brother and the older because she doesn't want to snap and hurt him in any way.
In Jaime's defense, I've met and talked to her a few times and it's plain to me that she loves her kids and is genuinely concerned for their well being.
I think there have been some great ideas on ways for him to vent all his extra energy so I won't repeat anything that has been said. I won't pretend either that I know what it's like to raise such a high spirited, high needs child since my girl is fairly manageable, but I think what Jaime is looking for is a little compassion, empathy and most of all non-judgemental attitude regarding her situation. Most of you have been awesome.
FWIW Joe ROCKS! My daughter loves playing with him and I think SHE is a good judge of character. Joemama rocks too!

Peace and love.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Thank you, thank you Dana!









You are so awesome and I am so glad to know you IRL


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I posted 4 times (once was an edited typo) before you told me to "go away". And that was your 8th post.

I hope you see the tone you set in this thread at the beginning made it appear you wanted and needed serious discussion and feedback. My posts may stand out to you, but in fact, many other posts asked the same questions that I did. If you were only looking for agreement, it wasn't clear to many of the people who responded to your op.

And if you read the op, it is no mystery why you got that response.

You didn't sugar coat it, as you said. Well, I think people saw that, and did not "sugar coat" their advice, but spoke plainly, assuming you wanted more than a fleeting agreement.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

*


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

intensity-









I have a very spirited 2.9 yo and a 10 week old. I can feel some of your frustration. Would it help to at least talk to someone, a "professional" about his behavior? I know it helped me to make an appointment with my pediatrician when DS's behavior was out of control. I wasn't looking for a diagnosis, I think I was just looking for support. And yes, an acknowledment that his behavior was in the bounds of "normal".

And there are many days (most lately) where I find myself not liking my DS not much AT ALL.

Please try very hard to take care of yourself. Sounds like you are a good mama with a challenging child.


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

Hi Jaime

I'm holding Gil and can't type well but I wanted you to know I read this and I think you are an amazing wise and patient person. Remember that it will pass, someday he'll be big and a teenager and driving you crazy in a completely different way!

I love you mama-


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
My 3 y/o . . . . .where to start . . . . . .He is a terror. A complete terror. I am not exaggerating in anyway and I am about to loose my cool with him. HELP ME!!!!!!!

First, have a hug.

Second-- I wish I had advice for you on parenting a spirited child. I'm right there with you-- DD is 3.5 and very spirited. I consider it a marathon. Just keep running... (or swimming, as Dori would say. <wink>). I do my best one day at a time. I try to read over and over about the true developmental capabilities of 3 year olds-- helps me remember her intentions are innocent, and that while her behaviors are extreme they are rooted in normal needs. I watch the Anger thread in the GD forum-- it helps me feel less alone. I read a lot of books (Playful Parenting is next-- humor is the only way I can reach DD in many situations).


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

SilverWillow-Just wanted to thank you for your words to Intensity and ME!







Like I mentioned before, I have a very spirited child as well, and not many people GET him. Or get that it's an every day battle to parent a child like this. I could go into his behaviors, but that would be hijacking!
Suffice it to say, that I share the frustrations of both you and Intensity and I am offering my support and love to you both...

It's rough when everybody thinks a time out or taking priveleges away is going to help. It just doesn't...and I'm not even talking about some of the behaviors Intensity mentions. Just his normal "spiritedness" and sensitivity are very hard to handle.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

SilverWillow wrote:

Quote:

I knew you would get lots of basic parenting advice from parents of easy kids. About half of it would be completely innocent suggestions from people whose kids the advice would actually *work* on.
You saw what you wanted to see then. You didn't see what was written.

I did not agree with the overall tone of the OP, but I did understand what she was describing. My child was not easy at 2 and 3. He was extremely difficult, had serious medical needs, and had behaviours that were on a level with what you might expect from a child with post traumatic stress. Extreme aversions, extreme fears, extreme reactions, high needs, lots of hitting, impulsive, not listening, constant supervision was necessary....

It was very difficult and I had many hard days. And this was before MDC. I am very grateful to a certain positive discipline board I found at a website years ago. It was wonderful having somewhere to post on the worst days. I can relate to that. I cannot relate to the tone of the OP towards her child. When someone put my post about my child's bad day in a positive light, I was grateful for that. I did not turn around and say "No, he really is a terror, you just don't know how it is to live like this". I did not defend his "awfulness". I did not want people to agree he was impossible, even when I was deeply frustrated. I wanted people to tell me I could handle this. I wanted people to tell me I could turn frustration into understanding and learning. I wanted people to agree he was a WONDERFUL child, a special and magic child, I wanted people to encourage me to see him this way, and to encourage me that I could work through these issues with him.

The OP's child is *3*. If now is not the time to keep working on your own attitude, learning how to be positive, to keep exploring options, I want to ask, when is the time for that?

SilverWillow, you may not agree with my advice. You are wrong to assume that everyone who was less than supportive of the OP's attitude was coming from a place of parenting easy children. That is not true. I think the OP has missed a great chance to learn and grow by shutting out any post here that wasn't to her liking. But that is her choice, not the fault of others who shared their experience.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Once again . . . and this is my last response to you heartmama . . . . I do not have an attitude problem towards my child. I do not need to learn and grow. My very high needs, spirited child has been this way since birth!!!! I have, and continue, to learn, grow and adapted to daily life with my very magical child.

He is wonderful!
He is gorgeous! (Of course, I may be biased)
He is very smart!
He has an imagination that won't quite!
He's head strong! (Like his mama)
He has no fear!
He has endless energy!

While, on most days, I love these qualities in my ds (and there is so much more I could have listed) there are days when they become to much to handle and I get frustrated and upset. Is that the right reaction. No. Is it a normal reaction. Yes! Now, I am sorry that you took my OP in the wrong way and that I was not very clear in what I was trying to say. I'll admit it . . . Yes, at the very moment in time that I typed that message . . . the whole minute it took . . . I truly thought I hated my child. Of course, after the message was sent and I had a moment of peace in the bathroom alone, my 3 y/o walked up to me and said, "Mama there is an elephant in the living room and it is hitting it's head on the ceiling" (maybe not that clearly but I knew what he was trying to say). At that moment all the thoughts of hating my child left and were replaced by the ever growing love I have for him.


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SilverWillow*
First, have a hug.

Second-- I wish I had advice for you on parenting a spirited child. I'm right there with you-- DD is 3.5 and very spirited. I consider it a marathon. Just keep running... (or swimming, as Dori would say. <wink>). I do my best one day at a time. I try to read over and over about the true developmental capabilities of 3 year olds-- helps me remember her intentions are innocent, and that while her behaviors are extreme they are rooted in normal needs. I watch the Anger thread in the GD forum-- it helps me feel less alone. I read a lot of books (Playful Parenting is next-- humor is the only way I can reach DD in many situations). I only post in Special Needs for the following reason...

When I read your OP I groaned inside, knowing what was to follow. I knew you would get lots of basic parenting advice from parents of easy kids. About half of it would be completely innocent suggestions from people whose kids the advice would actually *work* on. (People suggest using time-out to me all the time-- cue hysterical laughter as I imagine literally pinning DD down with my body to get her to stay anywhere she didn't want to go-- then picture the bruises all over me). The rest would be comments form people who think their kids are easy because they're such great parents. I pray these people never know what it's like to be literally tapped out-- out of patience, out of energy, out of ideas, out of compassion-- every day of their lives from caring for an unusually intense and needy (and perhaps aggressive)child.

The problem is, these people will NEVER understand. They will try mightily to convince you they do, because they really believe they do. Just give up. Don't engage-- back away slowly.







It's not worth the frustration it will bring you when they relentlessly invalidate your emotions and your experience. Find a place that is safe, if you can (Special Needs!) and post away.

The most supportive friend I have, honestly, was the mom of a very easy baby. She could see the obvious difference in our children from the very start (sleep habits, need for soothing, need for constant entertainment, level of tolerance for discomfort/boredom/fatigue) and just said-- "wow-- I don't know how you do it. You are fabulous for trying so hard and giving so much of yourself to meet her needs." She made suggestions, but mostly we ended up laughing good-naturedly together when we realized how unrealistic they were. I loved getting the ideas, though, from someone who was so nonjudgmental. When she had her second baby, she finally "got it"-- he was high needs! It's nice to have a friend who understands. I hope you find someone IRL who can relate as well.

Hang in there! I hope the behavioral specialist can be of some help. Good for you for advocating for your child. I do find the sugar/TV/food allergy interventions to be somewhat helpful when behavior is at its worst, if minimally-- but every little bit helps. Won't solve everything, of course. Just keep swimming...

Sending unconditional support,

Amy









Thank you Amy for understanding and your thoughtful words. I am glad to know I am not the only mama out there who lives through this everyday.

Here's to swimming and staying a float.

Bless you.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SilverWillow*
When I read your OP I groaned inside, knowing what was to follow. I knew you would get lots of basic parenting advice from parents of easy kids....

The problem is, these people will NEVER understand. They will try mightily to convince you they do, because they really believe they do. Just give up. Don't engage-- back away slowly.









Oh, good grief. *These* are the types of posts that make me groan inside.

The assumptions on this thread are just incredible.

You're right. You all are terribly misunderstood. You are obviously the only mothers on this thread to have ever dealt with spirited children and anyone who has advice to offer that varies from what you might like or expect has obviously never been there.


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*

(snip)
I think the OP has missed a great chance to learn and grow by shutting out any post here that wasn't to her liking. But that is her choice, not the fault of others who shared their experience.

Wow, "her choice", "fault"-- nope, no judgement there.







I'm going to declare this an impasse. This is getting OT and it would be better for the thread to open up to more support for the OP if possible.

/engage

Amy


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

ok, I don't know what everyone's bickering about, cos I don't have time to read these long long threads. But I read some of the first page, and here and there throughout it...and my thinking is, first check the diet, and the activities that the kid has, and if those areas aren't peachy, then check the way you're parenting.

I think with more difficult kids, this idea that they should have even MORE freedom to vent, or be totally crazy little monkeys w/no regard for rules, is nutso!! totally nutso! That's what creates little monkeys, a lot of the time, in my opinion. if there's no environmental issues or home conflict issues, the problem might just be in the discipline. Is there any? is it effective?

I knew a child like you described. his mom was not into discipline at all, and he was a terror. he would hit her and she'd cry and say "why? why?" When his mom finally said, no, B, you can't do this, or that, and if you don't behave X will happen that you don't like so much, BAM, his behavior improved. I take issue with those who are anti discipline. Discipine does not break their little spirits unless it's abusive or unfair.

Had to have my 2 cents.
And for the record, my kid is "easy." But maude knows how she'd be if I let her have her way all the time. Ultimately, I'd say, go with your instinct. You are probably right. Unless your instincts have been replaced by some "expert" in parenting. You are the expert on your child. You know what your child needs, not me, not some book or cute ideology.

love,
K


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

Well, I'm not saying I completely understand what the OP or anyone on this thread, or in the world for that matter, is going through. It's really not possible-- I haven't walked in any of your shoes. But some of us recognize one another's shoes, if you know what I mean.







Finding a kindred spirit has made all the difference in the world to me several times throughout my parenting career.

I'm not saying you've never been there. But it's clear that some of the posters on this thread do not relate to the emotional state of the OP, and have said as much. If we're assuming that we're all pretty decent moms here, that says to me that she _may_ be experiencing behaviors on a level some here (including me) have never seen and cannot seem to imagine. If she says it's hard to get through the day, very hard-- I believe her. It's okay, it's not a contest (not one that I'd want to win, that's for sure!). We all have our varying challenges-- it's not bad to have easier kids, for goodness sakes, and those who do may have other issues that make their lives much more difficult than mine or the OP's, etc.

Venting is about losing control and then regaining perspective. It can feel really suffocating when people seem to think they know exactly how to "fix" you, or your kid if you'd just let them have her for a week.







That's how advice feels in the heat of the moment when it just isn't applicable to your situation, at least in my experience. It seems like miscommunication mostly, but it causes a lot of frustration all around.

I wish us all easy days with our exasperatingly wonderful children!

Amy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Oh, good grief. *These* are the types of posts that make me groan inside.

The assumptions on this thread are just incredible.

You're right. You all are terribly misunderstood. You are obviously the only mothers on this thread to have ever dealt with spirited children and anyone who has advice to offer that varies from what you might like or expect has obviously never been there.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Silverwillow, you are still seeing what you want to see in my posts. You are being defensive instead of addressing the actual content, and finding specific issues to discuss.

Itensity too, why be hostile? I have said nothing angry or hostile towards you.

Quote:

I do not need to learn and grow.
I truly don't understand why you say things like this. How can you be done growing as a parent so early in the journey?

However I enjoyed the rest of your post. I'm glad to hear things are looking better.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
I do not need to learn and grow.









: Please sweet goddess, in all my time on Earth, but especially as a mother, never ever ever ever let me consider, think, or say those words.







:

that makes me







:


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## SilverWillow (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Silverwillow, you are still seeing what you want to see in my posts. You are being defensive instead of addressing the actual content, and finding specific issues to discuss..

heartmama, I addressed the content of your last post very specifically by quoting you, and then replying to each section. I gave you some very specific examples of my own parenting, as did the OP. Yes, I addressed some of your post by disagreeing with you. Ignore it if you like. You've proven my point. You seem determined to continue this thread hijack into infinity so long as you have the last word. I'm going to let you have it. I simply can't put in the effort it takes to follow these kinds of threads during the week.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I truly don't understand why you say things like this. How can you be done growing as a parent so early in the journey?

I think she just doesn't want to hear it from you any more, since you seemed judgmental in your initial post. She _is_ growing, and learning, of course, so you don't need to suggest that any more. She gets it already. Grow, learn: check. Throwing cliches at her when she wants a hug just isn't helping. She's said it over and over. If you can't see that by now, you never will. Just keep on posting, though! I guess this is your thread now.

I'm out! If anyone wants me, please pm me (nicely







) as I've unsubscribed from the thread. Good luck to all and let's enjoy our crazy monkey kids as much as we do the little angels!









Amy


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*







: Please sweet goddess, in all my time on Earth, but especially as a mother, never ever ever ever let me consider, think, or say those words.







:

that makes me







:

The not needing to learn and grow comment was meant to mean that I get it already! Heartmama can stop telling me that I need to learn and grow. I got it already.


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

bicker bicker bicker.

just give the OP some support already! dang talk about hijacking a thread.

OP - what can I say. It sounds very difficult what you are dealing with. I don't have any advice just sympathy.

peace


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

SilverWillow, you jumped into this thread insisting everyone had any easy child. When I shared otherwise, you insisted I was using too many *I* statements. If you would like to share advice on the actual topic, I'd be happy to talk.

Quote:

I think she just doesn't want to hear it from you any more,
Wel, the post after my last said the same thing.

Quote:

Heartmama can stop telling me that I need to learn and grow. I got it already.
I am not the only one saying that. Someone else just said it. It's interesting you keep choosing to see it as what *heartmama* is saying.

You have specifically called me out with comments re "go away". I have not responded in the same tone. You are being flippant towards what I say without provocation.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Totally side-stepping all of the bickering and asking a couple of questions. Intensity, you sound at about the end of your rope supervising your very active child inside. Can you spend the majority of the day, or even 1/2 of it, outside? Is there a place where he can play in the water, run, jump, climb, make really loud noise, all of that, without driving you over the edge? I know that most parts of the country aren't blest with our So. CA "live outside all of the time" weather. But even if its cold/wet/windy, would it help? I realize it won't solve any of the long-term, underlying issues. But might it at least give you a break so you can regroup?

Along the same lines of finding some short-term solutions to help and keep everyone safe... Have you considered preschool? I know that not everyone thinks it is necessary or good or whatever. But a good part-time program might give you the time you need to take care of yourself and give you time with the baby. At the same time, it would give him time to run and play and be someone else's challenge for at least part of the day.

Having said that, I realize there are probably 100 reasons why this wouldn't help. I'm just trying to throw out suggestions without knowing all of the circumstances.


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## heatherzenzen (Aug 21, 2004)

I read about the Feingold diet, and some kids that the diet helped seemed to act like your child. Once they figured out that they were sensitive to certain foods, their behaviour immediately changed. I read about the diet in an older issue of Mothering. I don't know if it would help, but it sounds like it might be worthwhile to look into it.

Heather
http://www.zensicallife.com


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## DecemberSun (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
But I realize that when I feel that way it's not just because of something my son has done, it's because of the way I'm reacting to him. It's an inner struggle that's triggered by what's inside me, not just by his actions. His actions might be the catalyst, but the feelings are of my making.

Dragonfly, can I have permission to write this on a sticky note and put it on my fridge??? This is SOOOOOO true!!! Often after disciplining my very spirited 22 month old I look back and realize that I overreacted to the situation, causing my DS to overreact, and it blows up... I need to read this every day!


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## maisydaze (Mar 8, 2004)

"Okay, well, I just put out a fire that the 3 y/o started on the stove. I need to open some windows and get the smoke out. No, I am not a bad parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is just a quick, sly, smart little boy."

Regarding the stove...an easy way to childproof against this sort of thing (stove climbing 3 year olds) is to take all the knobs off of the stove (and put them somewhere accessible only to adults) and the kids simply cannot turn the stove burners or oven on.

Good luck!

Lisa, mom to 3 year old Gwen and a son on the way


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maisydaze*
"Okay, well, I just put out a fire that the 3 y/o started on the stove. I need to open some windows and get the smoke out. No, I am not a bad parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is just a quick, sly, smart little boy."

Regarding the stove...an easy way to childproof against this sort of thing (stove climbing 3 year olds) is to take all the knobs off of the stove (and put them somewhere accessible only to adults) and the kids simply cannot turn the stove burners or oven on.

Good luck!

Lisa, mom to 3 year old Gwen and a son on the way

Oh Lisa, I wished I could do this but my stove (we rent) is ancient. The controls are push button and they are right on the front of the oven . . . right above the oven door. We have yet to find a safety device that will work. Thanks for the idea though


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## maisydaze (Mar 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
Oh Lisa, I wished I could do this but my stove (we rent) is ancient. The controls are push button and they are right on the front of the oven . . . right above the oven door. We have yet to find a safety device that will work. Thanks for the idea though









Oh, that is too bad...I can see how that would be difficult to childproof! Too bad you can't reach the plug to the stove easily, (as it's most likely behind the stove)!

I used to have one of the push button stoves. I think I remember that when the "off" button is depressed all the others pop back up, right?

Too bad you couldn't just duck tape down the off button or something like that so he couldn't push the other buttons down, but that would be a pain in the butt for you and your hubby...you guys would have to peel up the duck tape everytime you wanted to turn on a burner.

Obviously the best thing would be to keep your 3 year old from doing it in the first place!! (And we all know how that goes!!! So difficult sometimes!!).

Good luck!

Lisa


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Someone told me once that God never gives us more than we can handle. Oh, so true as I look around at my friends and the families I've met through teaching. There IS a reason God put you two together. You just gotta figure it out









I have to give you HUGE hugs b/c I think my mind would simply implode due to my lack of patience. I think, in your situation, my first stop would be at the Naturopathic dr's office to do elimination diets, etc etc. Our dr. is very thorough and addresses lifestyle issues--not simply the body as is.

Call the school district to see if they have special preschool programs; ie. it's in the best interest of the District to identify high needs kids early and get interventions in place before kindergarten. They'd likely do free testing, too.

I make my kids run. :LOL Seriously, they have SOOOO much energy! We're outside for hours everyday. My 3 y.o. can actually hike 4 miles w/o getting tired. And, this includes playing w/every rock and stick along the way AND climbing trees. I swear, they're like little puppies--running around chaotically burning energy while I plod along and chatter.

We also have hanging toys in the house for them; ie. rope ladders, monkey bars, etc.

GOOD LUCK


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
Oh Lisa, I wished I could do this but my stove (we rent) is ancient. The controls are push button and they are right on the front of the oven . . . right above the oven door. We have yet to find a safety device that will work. Thanks for the idea though










What about one of these? At least he wouldn't be able to get to the burners, if he did turn it on.

Stove Guard

Just trying to offer some practical suggestions.

Bec


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## Milo (Dec 5, 2001)

Please, Please, Please check out the Feingold Program.....It has saved our family - and I don't exagerate. I was ready to medicate myself, or the child or both, or put him in daycare, because at the end of every day I felt like a shrivelled little raisin inside. I had absolutely no reserves - and a new baby too. Bedtime- after two hours of physically holding the child to calm him down - was the only quiet time I could take my eyes off the little guy. I looked at the Feingold information three times before I got desperate enough to try it. It looked hard - and we ate well - much like your description. Who would have thought my children really could be allergic to apples, oranges, brocolli for crying out loud! Two years into Feingold, I am homeschooling successfully, with the child who couldn't sit still, be quiet or controll his own impulses for more than two minutes. Recently, I had to take the oldest to the community health dentist to have some fillings....with a toddler in a backpack and a four year old plus the child who needed to see the dentist. In a tiny little open cubicle with barely room for us to stand, we all were quiet and still and cooperative with the dentist for twenty minutes, and then rode the public bus home. Never, never would have imagined it before.

Enough about us...hang in there mama, and don't ignore your instinct about your child's behaviour. And yes, I was beginning to not like my child most of the time before we made the change. The first six weeks of detoxing were the worst, and it has been so worth it ever since.

www.feingold.org is the website. Best of luck, and don't ever think you are alone in this.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DecemberSun*
Dragonfly, can I have permission to write this on a sticky note and put it on my fridge??? This is SOOOOOO true!!! Often after disciplining my very spirited 22 month old I look back and realize that I overreacted to the situation, causing my DS to overreact, and it blows up... I need to read this every day!

Go right ahead - I think I will, too. :LOL It's definitely something I could stand to keep in the forefront of my mind.


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## Allie (Jun 11, 2002)

I have a book "Super Immunity for Children". They addressed a similar situation. One aspect was diet. One really big factor in the diagnosis was a lack of Omega 3's EFA's. They suggested flax oil. I have the book and if you want, I will copy the pages and send it to you. Or, the book is likely in a health food store. It is a guide to immunity through diet for children through highschool. I have learned a lot from it. The author is an MD and a nutritionist etc. If you email me, I will get it out and look it up for you.


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## LovingMotherCassie (Sep 7, 2004)

This is a great thread. I also have a little one who is extraordinarily intense. He just turned four. I didn't believe he was normal even as an infant. A lot of people told me he was just a normal kiddo, but they just didn't get it. Now I have two more children and the other two are "normal kids", so I know for sure I am not just nuts.

Just a little background on my son - he does not require sleep and he never ever slows down. As an infant he had one cry for everything and it was a wide open mouthed, red faced scream for many hours every day. Doctors could find nothing wrong with him and thought I was nuts. By age one, he still just cried for everything and hadn't even attempted to communicate in any other way, despite being smart as a whip in just about every other aspect of his activities. I taught him sign language and he began to communicate. Now he never stops communicating. The entire day is a running commentary. After lamenting about trying to get him to sleep, our pediatrician finally advised us to simply let him stay up until he fell asleep - that he would have to fall asleep eventually. Yea, right. We tried this approach after just about everything else when he was just over a year old. He stayed up for three days and two full nights with no signs of slowing down. By night three, we stayed up late and he was still going strong. I gave up - _I needed sleep_! This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface, but at least it gives you an idea of where I am coming from.

I don't think anything really "fixes" the intensity of a child like this, but here are some things that have helped us:

A lot of people have mentioned spending lots of time outside letting him run. This, however, backfires for us and just winds him up more. He needs a balance of activity and often does better with more quiet activity rather than active activity. For the better part of the day, my son is restricted to certain areas of the house by gates. The more control he shows, the more he is allowed into other areas. He has a specific area all his own with a desk and activities that require focus and is outside the gate. His desk is near my computer and in an area where he can be easily supervised while I can still keep an eye on my other kids, but he can feel that he is in his own space.

The importance of the desk is two-fold. Not only is it his own space where he can feel in control, but the activities that I have for him to do there require him to learn to focus. It's hard to find just the right things to have there for him, but when I hit on a right thing, it really makes a difference. I look for items that are "quietly active", such as building sets that are more advanced than simple legos. He has one of those Fisher Price reader books and a huge stack of puzzles, most need to be more advanced for him but not too advanced in order to keep his attention.

I find that I need to watch for his "windows". He doesn't learn or become interested in things at the same time as other kids. Sometimes he needs much more and sometimes less. I try to be more active in controling him when he needs it and know when to back off when he needs it, as well. Sometimes he needs my constant control, but then he aslo has times when he needs the leeway so that he can learn to be in control of himself. I don't know how to tell you to watch for these, I have just learned to feel for it with my guy.

We stick to a fairly strict routine, once we were finally able to find one that worked ok for us. He is very routine resistant, but after a lot of work, we made one work and now we are even able to do other things without such a a huge impact on his behavior.

Just about any focused activity is helpful, usually. It's trial and error trying to determine what will best keep his attention and it often changes quickly. Sometimes he needs a lot of stimulation and it's then when I need to take more time and provide more stimulating activities such as arts and crafts and new games. We are trying yoga to help him focus and balance and I would like to get him into a _good_ karate program that teaches not only the physical karate but the philosophy and focus of it as well.

In our house, the bedroom and play area are completely separate and when his energy level gets so high that he is absolutely out of control, he has a "time-out to calm down" in his room. We close the blinds and turn the lights down so that the room is calm and non-stimulating. We talk things out and he is required to lay in his bed quietly for a certain period of time (long enough for him to regain his control). If he gets up or doesn't calm down he has to stay in there longer. This teaches him that he is in control and if he doesn't want to stay in the dark and quiet room, then he has to be in control of himself and be calm and quiet for a few minutes. This makes a huge difference for us. It is, however, easier said than done, but with intense perserverence, we make it work.

I guess for us, the key is finding ways to teach him how to be in control of himself. Giving him his own control while never letting up on the rules is our focus. The specific environments in our home take extra effort and sometimes a lot of frustration in trying to figure out what exactly they need to be to work, but they really have made all the difference for us.

As far as how you feel about him - it's natural. I have a very difficult time relating to my son and often just want to be away from him. He is just so very draining. It's those rare moments when our attempts to teach him control work well that I realize I really do love him, I just needed peace. It's hard to find peace with such an extreme child, and we all need peace. It's natural to feel some level of hostility towards whatever it is in our life that keeps us from much needed moments of peace.

Just remember, if you ever really feel like hurting him, do not hesitate to get help and take a break from him. Even moms of more "normal kids" need a vacation from them at times. You may also want to consider yoga or some form of meditation to give you ability and strength to find peace in just a few moments, since, I suspect, you aren't likely to have a lot of time to wind down from his winding up. Whatever can give you a moments peace in just a moment or two will be helpful for the both of you because if he winds you up too tight, he will just feed off of your energy in return and it will make matters worse for both of you. It's a vicious cycle!

Anyway, I hope that this is helpful for you. Best wishes! *hugs*


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I remember reading a book called "How to Really Love your child", years ago which really helped me with feelings of hatred I was having for my spirited child. It talked about how sometimes when you begin to hate a child, you could begin to withdrawl eye contact, hugs, etc. I just looked on my bookshelf and its gone. Whaah. I could use a review now that he's a cranky teenager. Hugs to you mama!!


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## gabbyraja (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
This is a great thread. I also have a little one who is extraordinarily intense. He just turned four. I didn't believe he was normal even as an infant. A lot of people told me he was just a normal kiddo, but they just didn't get it. Now I have two more children and the other two are "normal kids", so I know for sure I am not just nuts.

Yes, yes, yes! Me, too. Ds was high needs from before birth! I recently read something that said "a newborn can stay awake for as long as _45 minutes_ after birth!" Ds was awake for over 6 hours.

Other's didn't get it. I had a friend (childless, of course) who actually called me _lucky_ about a behavioral issue that I'd worked on every hr of every day for 4 long months w/ds on and he finally did it for the first time! There is NO luck about it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
Just a little background on my son - he does not require sleep and he never ever slows down.

Yes, again. My biggest struggle w/ds has _always_ been over sleep. There were days when I would have little fantasies of throwing him against the wall. It was the only way to get my frustration out so that I didn't actually do it. I used to alternate between that image and trying to do an attitude adjustment like Heartmama is talking about. I realized that it was all in my perception of "the problem". That ds had no problem at all, I did. I saw his behavior as crying for help, just as he did when he didn't have the words. When he was 3 months old he didn't know what he needed, he just knew he needed something and did the only thing he could do to ask for it. Same thing as a 2 yr old. From the time he was a month old I made myself think of 1 thing he had done that day that made me smile. That helped me to calm down, focus, and help him regain control. Now I'm usually the most patient momma.

Another thing I did was try to hug and kiss him when I felt the least like doing so. Physical touch does something to us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
A lot of people have mentioned spending lots of time outside letting him run. This, however, backfires for us and just winds him up more. He needs a balance of activity and often does better with more quiet activity rather than active activity.

In our house, the bedroom and play area are completely separate and when his energy level gets so high that he is absolutely out of control, he has a "time-out to calm down" in his room. We close the blinds and turn the lights down so that the room is calm and non-stimulating. We talk things out and he is required to lay in his bed quietly for a certain period of time (long enough for him to regain his control). If he gets up or doesn't calm down he has to stay in there longer. This teaches him that he is in control and if he doesn't want to stay in the dark and quiet room, then he has to be in control of himself and be calm and quiet for a few minutes. This makes a huge difference for us. It is, however, easier said than done, but with intense perserverence, we make it work.

Yes again! Were our boys separated at birth?

I read The Highly Sensitive Child, and the best part was I agreed with EVERYTHING, but not for ds, for me! I knew right from the beginning where ds got his sensitivity. I have a hard time with excitement and crowds and lots of light, and lots of noise, etc. I used to get physically sick every year at Christmas and spend the entire night on the bathroom floor until I was about 9, because I couldn't handle the change in routine and the crowd of the entire family together.

Some people would have labeled ds as having colic, but I knew better by instinct. I knew he had sensory integration problems; he couldn't handle the common advice of "teaching them to sleep through the noise by putting the bassinet in the living room." He would sceam bloody murder until the room was pitch black (we had to get 2 shades for his window) and the door was closed and the white noise of the air filter was on. Then he could nurse to sleep.

And that still goes now. My first thought as I read throught the replies was that nobody mentioned sleep. Julian's trigger is ALWAYS sleep.

He's an absolutely AWESOME kid now! He's the most cooperative guy. We fully explain things to him (NEVER a "Because I said so"! There was nothing more infuriating to me as a child.) and ask for his help with this and that. He goes to Montessori, because it integrates so well with our parenting. He cleans up his own messes, takes his plate to the kitchen, pushes in his chair, undresses and dresses himself (mostly), etc.

_However_, you can tell the time by his behavior. He no longer naps either, and you know it's 1:00 because he starts getting out of hand. He starts pushing dd, jumping on the couch, getting louder, the other day he was literally running in circles on the living room floor. Most people would say that means he needs to go outside, but that would backfire for us, too. It meant he needed to sleep. But he just won't go anymore. So now we have "rest time" it wasn't easy to work into our routine. He was very resistant. But now it's time for a rest. You can take your books or whatever, but you must lie down until the timer goes off (30 minutes). At first we had the timer in his room so he could see when his time was almost up, but then it started going off 2 minutes after he went in there! lol. The kid's too smart.

After rest he's better in the afternoon and you don't know what time it is again until about 6:30.









We do a loose routine, because he needs one as much as I do, but we keep it loose because he is able to deviate a little some days. My most useful tool is getting him involved in whatever I'm doing. If it's laundry, he loads the washer for me, or folds the towels. If it's cooking, he does all the stirring and cutting (supervised, of course. He LOVES being able to use the knife). If it's cleaning up he gets a specific task right by me.

And OP I don't know how old your younger ds is, but I just went through the absolute worst year of my entire life (best too, of course). It was dd's first yr. Ds was the worst, and I posted almost the exact same post as yours (including the word hate) on another forum. He sounds like a normal kid now, but that just started about 4 or 5 months ago. Prior he sounded EXACTLY like yours (except for the speech problems. We started signing with him at 4 months old and he's always had a HUGE vocabulary). Everyone told me that it would get better by the time dd was a yr old. I didn't believe it, but oh did it ever! We do our best to teach ds to treat her just as we would. It helps with the respecting her and her body, etc, but it also makes him feel as though he's one of her parents and can boss her around. So we're trying to work and that fine line.









And, I don't know if you're a yeller or not, but regardless this is a very powerful article that can help as a catalyst in whatever you might like to change in yourself. http://www.evalillian.com/YellingDiscipline.aspx

Anyway, written a book, so I'll sign off now. Hopefully you can glean at least one tiny jewel out of all of this.

Jessica


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

IT-- regarding the stove fire....

In july I noticed a funny smell inour house. I went to check it out and walked into the kitchen. I almost blacked out. I stumbled to the stove and turned off the burner T had turned on. I saw spots, opened all the windows and left the house for the day. My 2 year old could have killed us all.

I am another with a "quick, sly, smart little boy" and I can't forget resourceful....

Things happen and wecan't prevent it all. kwim?

I think our boys would be best friends... of course the rest of us would ram our heads into the wall until unconscious







but they would have fun


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I just remembered something that helped for my Joey. Its funny I hadn't thought of it earlier. Joey was horrible about sleep for the first 4 months. Then we did some really intense chiropractic work (colic reminded me because people said it was colic but he had it from day one so it couldn't be). I bless my chiropractor for fixing my kid. Honestly, I never think about sleep issues with Joe any more. Now that I am talking about it, I think I will get Zach in soon. He is teething, nursing all night long and I think that when I get seriously sleep deprived, I stop thinking solutions and just think sleep. The other thing I have heard is that Omega 3s are important for good sleep and emotional development. I took Omega3 through both pregnancies, and am now giving liquid oil to Joe. Should also order some more for me as if I am not taking it, Zach ain't getting enough either. Boy- don't know if any of this helped anyone else but it sure got me thinking about some things I need to take care of.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I should have thought about the chiro work! Weweregoing 3x a week for over a year. T's behavior startedgoing downhill in Sept. We stopped going in Aug.

If your ds has never beenit might be worth looking into.

That was a good suggestion


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
I think our boys would be best friends... of course the rest of us would ram our heads into the wall until unconscious







but they would have fun










:LOL Oh so true!!


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

I have though of taking ds and I to the chiro. I think I'll make an appointment. Heck, at this point it can't make things any worse!


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I am wondering if there are any other intense 3-4 y'o' who have to sleep in the total darkness and/or with a noise reducer or sound soothing machine for sleep?
My _intense_ Newly 4 y.olds







have always had sleep problems. I finally found a way tp help ensure they sleep longer an dmore peacefully. Th eroom has to be black. BLACK! So we have blackout blinds,then a heavy navy blue darkout curtain over top, and then we ducktape the edges because light peeks through the sides







My dd's are *very very* light sleepers. HAve always been. The mere sound of a person walking down the hallway will wake them fully (yes they have sensory issues) So, in order to help tune out some sounds, we have a sound hterapy machine that I actually have to put on full blast on the white noise and now they sleep SOOOO much better! Anybody else out there?


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

In order for my intense 2.5 year old to sleep he does much better with a black room and some noise.

He didn't sleep more than 2 hours in a row till over the age of 2 either....

Try the chiro. It'll make you both feel better


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## mom elle (Sep 28, 2004)

I am sure that this time is very difficult for you. Remember to be kind and take care of youself. Remember that you are doing the best you can in any given moment. That said, take a breath and get all the help you can.
Behaviors are always trying to tell us something. Your mission is to discover what your child is trying to tell you. I recommend enlisting the services of your family doctor, a child psychologist and a naturopathic physician. So you get a picture of your whole child.
I know of a child with similar concerns and when the parents removed all sugar and food color from the childs diet the child calmed right down...
I wish you a speedy discovery as to what your child needs are.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

My good friend's son is somewhere along that continuum. He needs dark to sleep (hard w/24 hour sunlight up here) but he also has to rock himself to sleep. And, again first thing in the morning. 20 minutes/time. It's so intense she had to put padding on the walls as he was getting callouses on his head.

I can't believe how exhausting it is for Mom. It seems so unfair. The rest of us just sit and watch our children play because we can pretty much trust their judgements-well as much as you can trust a 3 y.o.







But, he is totally unpredictable and volatile. We try to help but she's still aware. kwim?


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## LovingMotherCassie (Sep 7, 2004)

Heh, the white noise machine just got my guy all riled up rather than helping him to sleep. In our house it helps that all of the kids go to bed at the same time, it helps him to settle a bit, but he still doesn't sleep. Some nights we have to put a gate in the doorway to remind him that he needs to stay in bed rather than continuously getting up.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my last post that on really rambunctious days, I have found that playing music often helps to keep some level of calm. Some days it has to be all soft gentle music, but some days it doesn't matter as long as it's music. I can even play swing and jazz and it still helps, I think because music helps to stimulate our brains and that is what is needed to keep my little guy in control of himself.

We tried the chiropractor when he was little, but it didn't seem to help him much. I wouldn't mind trying it again now that he is older, though. I wonder if accupressure/accupuncture would do him some good.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

charmarty asks

Quote:

I am wondering if there are any other intense 3-4 y'o' who have to sleep in the total darkness and/or with a noise reducer or sound soothing machine for sleep?
Yes, good point. We started using one when ds was a toddler. He just could not fall asleep without it. I will use whatever is available, but usually a cheap air purifier or small fan makes just enough noise. Now we use a fish tank that I plug in at night.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
We tried the chiropractor when he was little, but it didn't seem to help him much. I wouldn't mind trying it again now that he is older, though. I wonder if accupressure/accupuncture would do him some good.

How long did you go?? Initally it took about 2 months of 3x week for us to see improvement in Tracy's sleeping and behavior. Before we moved if he was having a really grouchy day all it took was one trip. I must tell you though that he was born by c/b. Dh said that when he was pulled out his head was turned almost completely in a circle to suction him out. It wasn't until he was 2 months old and his fist chiro trip that he was able to turn his head to the right







I think he'll have neck issues for the rest of his life


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## LovingMotherCassie (Sep 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy*
I can't believe how exhausting it is for Mom. It seems so unfair. The rest of us just sit and watch our children play because we can pretty much trust their judgements-well as much as you can trust a 3 y.o.







But, he is totally unpredictable and volatile. We try to help but she's still aware. kwim?

So true. Even when my little guy is away he wears on my mind. After all, he broke his arm when he was only two and I worry how he is handling the change in routine. He usually does better than I expect, though.


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## LovingMotherCassie (Sep 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
How long did you go?? Initally it took about 2 months of 3x week for us to see improvement in Tracy's sleeping and behavior. Before we moved if he was having a really grouchy day all it took was one trip. I must tell you though that he was born by c/b. Dh said that when he was pulled out his head was turned almost completely in a circle to suction him out. It wasn't until he was 2 months old and his fist chiro trip that he was able to turn his head to the right







I think he'll have neck issues for the rest of his life









My little guy was born cesarian - don't know if that makes a difference for him or not. We went to the chiropractor once per week for about six months. He never had any movement problems, he just wouldn't stop screaming loud and hard all the time. I know he couldn't stand not being mobile and was always struggling to get around as soon as he could. He was just about crawling around four months and was standing and cruising along the furniture at six months. He was so determined to get around on his own!


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LovingMotherCassie*
My little guy was born cesarian - don't know if that makes a difference for him or not. We went to the chiropractor once per week for about six months. He never had any movement problems, he just wouldn't stop screaming loud and hard all the time. I know he couldn't stand not being mobile and was always struggling to get around as soon as he could. He was just about crawling around four months and was standing and cruising along the furniture at six months. He was so determined to get around on his own!

Interesting! My son was very much a "motor" child. He rolled at 3 months and never stopped rolling to get where ever he wanted. He was cruising furniture at 5 months. He crawled for all of 2 weeks at 8 1/2 months and has been walking since 9 months. He has always been ahead as far as motor skill milestones. I wonder if this is a pattern with these very spirited kids?

As far as sleep . . . my son MUST have AM talk radio on just enough to hear but not too loud to keep him awake. We also have the exhaust fan in the bathroom attached to our room on at night. My son, however, has to have a night light or he freaks out!


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

hmmmm definately seeing a pattern here. I know for sure my dd's have sensory issues They have SID as well as other things. I also consider them to be spirited. They were also born by C section and a traumatic one at that.








to all the exhausted mama's out there


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
Interesting! My son was very much a "motor" child. He rolled at 3 months and never stopped rolling to get where ever he wanted. He was cruising furniture at 5 months. He crawled for all of 2 weeks at 8 1/2 months and has been walking since 9 months. He has always been ahead as far as motor skill milestones. I wonder if this is a pattern with these very spirited kids?

Tracy too. He was crawling at about 5 months and walking at 9.5. Now at 2.5 he sprints and canjump down flights of steps (making mom a nervous wreck!)

Bryce was crawling at 8 months and crusing 1 week later. He is trying to walk at under 9 months. He stands on his own and tryies to pick his feet up and does this little thrust thing to try and move. Too cute.

But Bryce is totally opposite in personality than Tracy. I know B is still little but he does things that Tracy never did. He sits and plays with a toy. He will let anyone console him. He will be fine when I leave the room. Andhe sleeps great. We'll see what he's like as a toddler...his determination is slightly higher but his will is a less strong.


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intensity_too*
As far as sleep . . . my son MUST have AM talk radio on just enough to hear but not too loud to keep him awake.

Well there's your problem ma'am! They been reprogramming him in his sleep, like Brave New World!

:LOL


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## Scarlett Mother (Aug 30, 2003)

Hey, my heart goes out to you. You sound to me like a woman who very much loves her children and you posted here because you were feeling a little desperate and wanted some support and advice, not because you actually *hate* your child. While I agree with others advice on how to mitigate your frustration and your son's, I think that telling you that you need an attitude adjustment is absolutely not constructive. It's hurtful and presumptious for someone who only knows your situation from a few paragraphs. Those are my two cents.

On another note, tons of people have suggested changing your son's diet, but I haven't seen anyone mention the Feingold diet (sorry if they have, I didn't have time to read the whole thread). This diet is something I never heard about before I read an article in Mothering a year ago or so. It is based on the fact that some kids have a reaction to aspirin and aspirin like compounds which can be found in perfectly healthy foods such as apples as well as in things like artificial dyes. Kids who are sensitive to this apparently have a hyperactive reaction and increased behavioral problems. This may be another area for you to look into.

Hang in there. Mommy knows best


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## lllmomma (Sep 1, 2003)

Hi Jaime,

I went through something similar with my now 31/2 yo dd last summer. If she had been at school, I'm sure they would have put her out and told me to have her medicated . She was completely out of control and seemed to actually be filled with rage







.I remember calling a dear friend and saying "I really do not like being a mother! Do you honestly enjoy this?!" I too decided to seek professional help, but decided to check internet first because I didn't want said prof. telling me that of course she was messed up since she was still nursing and sleeping in my bed. I found Jan Hunt at Natural Child Project. You can call her for 1/2 hour and it costs about 30$. She has a MSc in Child Psych and Development and has written several wonderful books including "The Natural Child". She is Fabulous! Please give her a call! We ended up having dd tested for gluten intolerance (stool through Enterolab.com-if you go the testing route, please check out their website, they offer a much more sensitive test than many of the "goldstandards"). I can't tell you the difference that it made in our lives. She is still quite spirited, but I can handle it now. We have our bad days, but before, every day was BAD! (Also, check out the book "Is This your Child?" By Doris Rapp MD)

I also saw a therapist myself. One who was on board w/attachment parenting. Self-care was and is critical w/ a spirited child.

You are an amazingly strong mom! Good Luck!

Rhonda in Vancouver
Lucky Momma to Virginia (02/01)







:


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## lllmomma (Sep 1, 2003)

For everyone w/spirited kids who are very "motor" or active, Doris Rapp's book "Is This Your Child" is excellent! It is about Children with hidden allergies and when I read it, I swear she had written it about my own very spirited daughter. One of the symptoms of early allergy/sensitivity is lots of activity even in the womb, early sitting up, early crawling, early walking. Also stinky feet! I have some theories about Spirited ones and allergies...I'll save for later!


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## oandc'smom (Oct 29, 2003)

In addition to chiropractic, you may want to check out craniosacral therapy.

The Upledger Institue in FL does trainings nationwide, and also has a list of certified practitioners by state/area. I believe they have a website, and they definitely have an 800 #.

It is very gentle work. Ask for a therapist who works with children. Good luck

Maury


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

(I figure I will catch some flak for this post, but I have been there, done that, so oh well).
I will NOT join the posters who have attacked the OP for what she said ! I know for a fact that she isn't the only one who has said "I hate my child!" One of my dear friends had a "spirited child" (or whatever you want to call it) who was, to put it mildly, a holy terror ! My friend tried everything known to mankind...the whole gamut...and still her daughter was impossible ! Truly off the wall ! She told me on more than one occasion that she had come to hate her daughter, and that wasn't a comment she liked to make. She eventually found that the best solution, both for herself and for her daughter, was to put her up for adoption (the father, my friend's bf, was deceased). So she gave her up at age 3 and a half. It was a tough decision, but, she felt, the only one available. That was 4 years ago, and she does NOT regret that decision to this day. (BTW, at my friend's request, it was a closed adoption...one where she does not see her daughter again).
She felt that it was best to put her daughter with a family that maybe could handle the situation better and where she wasn't with a mother who had come to dislike her. I am CERTAINLY not suggesting that this would be best for this poster (in fact, I don't think it would be), but I am just stating that that is a viable option for some people who have reached an impasse. It was great for my friend.


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Shann So she gave her up at age 3 and a half. ... It was great for my friend.[/QUOTE said:


> I shouldn't bite but I can't help asking: Do you honestly think it was great for the child too?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> ...


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

I'm not sure why I'm replying to this thread - I don't think I can offer any helpful advice to Jaime. I am offering you sympathy and support.

I guess my kids would be considered normal, although I definitely think they are exceptional. But we don't have any behavior problems on an ongoing basis. Everything Jaime has described sounds terrifying to me, and my heart goes out to you and your children.

I think it's odd that other posters would read the OP and think that 'typical' suggestions would work. It's not obvious that she has a real problem on her hands? Her son is obviously suffering from a real disorder, whether or not it's been diagnosed. All a disorder means is that you're not able to function within a society of peers - he's not even interacting within his family.

I was a certified child therapist for years - I mostly worked with abused kids and children of substance abusers. It's impossible to read Jaime's description of her son and think that they both need serious help. I think the feingold diet, family therapy, and a special needs preschool class are all great suggestions. I don't blame Jaime for getting frustrated with what she has been advised, although I do believe everyone had good intentions.

It's hard to say, "Hey, there's something wrong with your child." Everyone wants to say that that's not true, and love and patience and time will solve everything. But that's not true - sometimes there's something wrong with a child. And addressing the problem is the only way to figure out what it is.

Good luck!!!


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## Rie&BugsMom (Feb 25, 2003)

Wow, what an interesting thread!! My children are way past the toddler years...and yet I found this thread to be so incredibly interesting and disturbing. Interesting because so much advice was given for a high needs child that I wish I had known about back when my kids were really small, and disturbing because there were some on here that I thought were trying to pick you apart for feeling what is only normal to feel, well after you had totally explained yourself.

I have only told one other mama many years ago that "I don't think I love my child anymore". Honey, your feelings were neither right nor wrong. They just were what they were. Acting out (how you choose to behave) on your feelings is what makes them right or wrong. Expressing them does not. MDC should be a place where you can get support and help for how you are feeling. Not told how wrong it is that you feel this way.

I have been where you are!! I have felt what you have felt. Holding what you feel inside and not sharing it with someone who may be able to offer help and support would be wrong. I commend you for stating your feelings in the Title of your OP. Just because you titled it that way does not mean that you feel this way all of the time.

Stating how you truly feel instead of hiding it makes way for the process of healing and dealing with real issues!!


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## PurpleBasil (Jan 28, 2004)

zatfigmama and Rie&Bugsmom: thank you!!


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## Rie&BugsMom (Feb 25, 2003)

You are Very Welcome!!!


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## laurajean (Nov 19, 2001)

Intensity too,

I could not read all of the posts in this thread. But, I did read a few of yours and I felt empathy for you and your son.

When a child is three years old, many professionals do not want to label or diagnose. However, from your description, your son seems to seek out sensory stimulation. For some children, the world does not provide enough tactile stimulation for them. So, there are positive ways for you to provide these experiences: massage, brushing with a surgical brush (under OT supervision), weighted vest, using shaving cream to spread all over body, ball pits, trampoline, finger paints etc.

And, on the other hand, often children who are feeling under stimulated through one sense are over stimulated through another. For example, loud noises or constant auditory stimulation will cause some children to have a fight/flight reaction. It is very important for you to observe and take note of what causes your son to react and try to avoid those situations.

Please get the support that you need. There are parent support groups and family play therapy groups in many areas. And, take care of yourself!!

~Laura


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I think the joy in life is to get through these hard times. I am glad that we have stuck it out. Things do get better, things are getting better with our spirited child who is now 15. I thought I hated him when he was 10. I fantasized about adopting him out or sending him to a boarding school. I am glad I didn't. I really do think that half of it was dietary/allergy/sensory/giftedness/rearranging our lives around his spiritedness. The other half was improving my parenting/attitude/outlook. To never give up, never quit! One wise mama once said as Moms we are never allowed to come to the end of our rope. So, whenever I am about to say "I am losing it", or "I am at the end of my rope". I tell myself no, there is no end of your rope when you are a mom. I started imagining in my mind that I would keep an extra stash of rope for myself. Then, I started imagining myself keeping an extra stash of rope for other Mom's too. When other Mama's around me felt like they were at the end of their ropes I would say "here, I have some extra rope that you can tie on to yours". There, you do not have an end to your rope now. That's kind of like what MDC has been for me.


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

oh, and not to forget our spirited child went to a chiropractor once a week for years. It really helped.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Bestbirths~ I like that. Giving other mothers more rope. I think you just found a new sig!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Bestbirths-What wonderful words







This is not even my thread, and as mother of a very spirited child, I thank you...


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## hippiemom2 (Oct 8, 2002)

My son is an extreme kid. Energy flying every which way and that all day long, but at night he is ready for bed. He just needs a fan on. One day, we were trying to get him to sleep when he was around 2 and it wasn't happening. We tried everything that we could think of including crying it out. NO flames please this was done in a long line of possibilites. It didn't work anyway. When we turned on his fan, he layed down in the bed and put his covers on. Now, that fan is on every single night and he is 5 now and no problems at night. I wish you and your family well OP. I was kind of reading through some of the earlier posts and couldn't believe how snarky it seemed. Aren't we here for support? Sometimes these boards amaze me and not necessarily in a good way....

Peace,
Shelbi


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
I don't mean to sound snarly- it is just I don't think parents whose children are "normal" understand that when you get to your last nerve, have tried everything and nothing has worked- hearing "focus on the positive, be patient, be kinder, etc." ends up feeling like- "you haven't really tried everything, you aren't really at wits end." I heard her despair because it has been my own and reacted from there. I apologize.

I agree, don't apologize!She is worn out, has a baby at home and surely tried all of these things already.

I don't have much more to add except to have other people watch him,too and staying outside as much as possible

TC,


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

No, Magster, I never said it was easy on my friend's daughter. I simply said that FOR MY FRIEND adoption of her daughter was the best thing. She felt (and so do I) that in the long run, it was best for her daughter to be adopted to a family that actually would like her, as my friend had truly come to a stage where she didn't like (i.e. she hated) her own child. I can't see how that could totally be bad for the child. My friend was at the end of all her ropes, and I must admit, even I couldn't stand to be near her daughter, and I have alot more patience with kids than most people. She was a little terror, and I was not sorry to see her give her up for adoption. So it was very good for my friend, and as I said, better for the daughter in the long run. Sometimes such hard decisions must be made.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Intensity...If you are still reading this threar







and are in need of a chuckle thinking about what another etremekid does...read these couple links...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=211342

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=211879

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=211996

Just a glimpse at the things T has done this week...


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## intensity_too (Nov 21, 2002)

its_our_family-

I'm begining to wonder if our son's were seperated at birth!! Joe has done all those things and then some. How do you manage to keep your cool when you are looking at a kid and a kitchen covered in flour and sugar? Please share your wisdom oh great mama!!


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

One thing I notice about Its our family is that she uses humor to laugh at what some people looking in would consider "serious problems". Sometimes you just have to try very desperately to find some humor in it all. Keeps one sane sometimes. A chapstick eating powdered sugar covered kid who is coloring on the floor is both hilarious and adorable to me. My aunt set the house on fire when she was five. My grandma had just lost weight and gotten her first fashionable wardrobe. The fire was started in grandma's closet, and just all of her new clothes burnt up. I can find the humor in this story. It must be because of having a spirited child, it is just funny to me or I am warped, I dunno.

Charmarty-I like that idea. See my new sig!


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I LOVE It!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Intensity-- I have no idea. BUt I do try and use humor. Its the out of the ordinary thingsI find funny.

Like the time I found Tracy in the bathroom sink up to his waist in water chewing on his dad's toothbrush. The first thing I do is get the camera.

I think that is part of it. Instead of reacting right away when he does something I look to see if he is in danger. If he isn't I step back. I can leave the room and come back. I try not to instantly judge. With him it is sometimes just harmless exploring that turns into a mess. Running to get the camera calms me down.

Trust me I lose my temper way too often with him.

I try and remember that my son is NOT trying to make my life a living hell. Sometimes it feels that way. But he isn't doing things as revenge or in order to make me mad. Like someone above was saying sometimes it is attitude. I used to have the symbol for Tracy in my sig as







I posted a post similar to yours and someone lovingly pointed out that I need to change my attitude towards Tracy. I said that I didn't think I had issues with MY attitude. Then she pointed out my sig. It was staring right back at me. I changed it to









The other thing is that I will freely admit that I love my son everyday but I don't always like him. Sometimes I can think of nothing else but running away or locking myself in the closet. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I grab that dusty babygate and put Tracy in his room. There he can bounce off the walls without me hounding him and I can get 5 minutes to myself to collect and regroup.

Oooo, thats the other thing. I've learned to give him some space. I let him be him. If he is going to damage property, himself,or another person I'll stop him. But I try and let him do what he wants. I'm not talking about being overly permissive either. I'm talking about letting him explorewith me watching. The more I hound him the more he does "bad".

I have more but this is getting long. I don't know if anything I've said is anything different than things that you have done. I don't want to repeat any of it. But know you aren't alone. This is something we struggle with everyday. This is something that I wake up in the morning dreading and go to bed weary from. This is something that I give myself pep talks for.

"I can do this. I am his mother and he is my child. I love him and he loves me. Together we can grow up . Together we can have a good day."

Sometimes its true. Others it isn't.


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