# At Odds with Discipline stuff ***UPDTATE POST 42****



## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Ok, I have no clue where to post this, PAP, Blended families or what, so mods, feel free to move it wherever. I figure I'll toss it here for now because it seems like the best fit.

Ok, First off my DH isn't my DD's bio dad. her bio dad isn't involved in the picture at all, my DH acctually adopted my DD as his own.

Let's Just say his discipline choices arent some that I agree with, and I
can't correct him because it just means he'll get more and more
authoritarian towards her to spite me...
Now, I'm FAR from the paragon of GD here. I yell. I do Coersion. I do time outs *very rarely* I also use rewards and bribes.

One scenario: She kept dropping her markers *Crayola Magicolor the
REAL expensive ones that only color on certain paper* he goes "Keep
dropping them and I'll throw them out" She kept dropping them. He
threw them out. Now come on, the LOGICAL thing to do would be "Oh I
see you're done coloring, help me put these away" No, he didn't do
that, he threw out a $10 marker/book set teaching her that
her stuff is not worth a hill of beans.

Second: Last night She didn't wanna stand up for her shower.
Instead of asking her if she was tired and HELPING her use her words, he
said, "STAND UP NOW for shower or you dont get a rockabye and I take all
your teddies away" She kept ragdolling down and he kept reefing her
up by the arm, because obviously this hurt her feelings, AND she was
in some sort of physical pain last night too, and she was
TERRIFIED of him. You could tell. He *MAKES* her look up in the
shower, which she's terrified of, she isnt' ready for it. Me I don't
care. It takes a little *more* work to rinse her hair after the
shampoo but it's no big deal. It's one of those things that you pick
your battles on.

But I can't correct him not even out of the sight/hearing of Brianna
because he'll just dig his heals in and be even meaner to her...









I know he adopted her, and I know he loves her, but he's not bonded
to her like I am...and that concerns me....He can't "hear" or "see" what
he's doing to her...

He wonders why she wont snuggle in with him, he wonders why she isn't
all lovey dovey with him. He's MEAN to her....of course it doesn't
matter now does it because she's just a kid and it's an important
life lesson right? 

The taking away the Rock-a-Bye and her teddies last night, that was the final straw..

As I said I have no clue where this belongs but I'd toss it out here...


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I don't have much time right now to give this the justice it deserves but I didn't want to lurke and not post.

I do want to say that the fact that your DH is not bio dad is not really the issue...he is dad. He definitely needs parenting advice. You say the bond isn't there...that's the problem. Discipline is all about the relationship and the bond. What he's doing sounds more like bullying than discipline









You are going to have to address this. And I have to say, if this were my DH my child this would be a deal breaker. He needs parenting lessons and quickly.










I will think on this overnight and hopefully be able to help more in the morning.


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

Mama it is YOUR job to protect your daughter. Period. The whole "He would just be meaner to her" deal is s*&t. Don't LET him be. It would be a deal breaker for me. I've seen what a mom letting a man be mean to her children can do - I am married to it and it affects a person for the rest of their lives. I wouldn't let anyone treat my child that day, bio dad or not.


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## tracilicious (Oct 5, 2004)

I'm new here, and just learning about gentle discipline, but there is no way in hell I'd stand for that. NO ONE, Dad or not, is going to treat my child like that. Absolute deal breaker. I would tell him in no uncertain terms that he get educated or get out. Perhaps in the meantime, you can tell him that you'll handle all disciplinary situations with your daughter. I know what it's like to grow up afraid of someone and not have the other parent step in. It's not good. I'm not talking about outright abuse either, I'm talking about situations very similar to the ones you are describing.

You are the only advocate your child has. I know it's hard, but you need to have a backbone of steel. Good luck.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I am not sure from your post how old dd is and since how long you are married to dh. Because it is hard enough to polish your parenting skills from toddlerhood to childhood, and beyond, so I can't imagine how hard it must be to start afresh with a challenging 5 yo. Anyway, have you tried having the two of them work on a project that is of interest to both? I have no clue what their interests are but like how about an art project of building a volcano? Or perhaps just simply playing Memory? I mean anything that helps them build some togertheness. Meanwhile, you could take over the "other" (non playful) part of parenting completely for awhile. Like, dressing, bedtime, eating.... I am not sure if other sib are in the picture and you cannot do this for some reason. But it would be worth trying, I think. And then he would be more relaxed and you could talk to him in more general terms about what a kind of person you would like your daughter to turn out to be in the long run. And how you can help her grow into that person....


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Another deal-breaker here. I'm not a fan of ultimatums, but......... I'd explain to him that the next time he creates fear in your home, he will not be welcome there. I'd keep it about him, and not DD - that will just put the focus on her and it belongs on him.

He needs parenting councelling and possibly anger management help.

She must be suffering terrible fear...

I'm sorry you're facing such awful stuff. I'd never allow that in my home - or anywhere around my DC.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

A little more background:

my DD is a little over 2.5yrs old

She's verbal, but only average. In other words, as verbal as the average 2.5 year old is. I'm working on that...but it's hard. She gets her opposites mixed up, like she sais she's happy when she's sad, and things are hot when they are stone cold and all that stuff...

DH's anger problem...well...He's a war vet...He was on the HMCS Vancouver's Boarding party during Operation Apollo. I don't know if he fully dealt with it yet...that's the thing. And he's military, I can't bring in any counselling without him getting Red flagged as an administrative burden, it's also a very fragile and stressful time for us all in his career, he's in the midst of a trade change, and is in school for it, and he's got the burden of being "top Student" and all the recognition and bull crap it comes with...

I'll work on him gently, and I'll get my MIL to work on him too. My MIL and I have an awesome relationship.

Sure I'm not the Paragon of GD...I have things that most GD parents would have no problems allowing their kids to do but I wont have it in my house. But I do have my limits...

Keep em coming


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

Please don't take offense here, I don't know your situation and don't pretend to. However, some of his reaction seems to indicate a problem between you and him, rather than him and your dd. The reason I say this is that you say he tends to dig in and get meaner when you attempt to correct him. Do you think he feels left out and that you don't view him as an equal parent? Of course, this would be normal on your part, since she is "your" daughter biologically. I'm just thinking this could be the root of some of that anger. The need to take control and prove he is equal in authority may be the result of those feelings, not that this excuses them in any way.

Would he consider marriage counseling? Most do family/parent counseling as well. IF you could find a good person, it may help get to the underlying cause of his behavior. How was his childhood? Is he simply parenting the way he was parented? This is common, but sad. Counseling and parenting classes can help him recognize his own abusive childhood and get past it. The fact that he is upset that she won't snuggle with him indicates he does love her and have parental feelings of some kind.

Will he read books/articles about gentle discipline? My dh doesn't like to read and tends to have a more authoritarian approach than I, so I read to him. Also, modeling helped with my dh. Our situation wasn't the same, he doesn't hit and isn't rough, but is a yeller from a family of screamers. Still I felt he needed to learn about gd and since he isn't a huge reader, I felt compelled to share the information with him. I found spoonfeeding him this info in small doses worked well.

I also made him attend a parenting seminar before our first was born. He thought I was out of my mind, but went along with me. I would say something like "I feel I need to learn more about parenting and I'd love you to come with me." THat way he doesn't feel attacked and like you are perfect and he sucks. I'm sure you don't act that way, but often that's how men perceive it. THey can feel criticized and that makes them unwilling to learn/change. (I think its from stupid fathers who try to raise them to be "tough" or "real men")

I would try these things first in an attempt to save the family, but the bottom line is that you need to protect your daughter. If he remains unwilling to change, you may have to leave him. In the long run, no daddy will be far better than one that is abusive, either physically or emotionally.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

You're afraid that he will be meaner to her if you ask him to respect her?







It sounds to me like you might be afraid if him yourself. (Why wouldn't you fetch the markers, no matter the cost, which is besides the point, out of the bin for your child?). Plus, the more I think about it, the madder I get. he was expecting a two yr old to keep rolly markers from rolling off a table, when as the adult, he could have helped her. Maybe put them in a little cup or basket. But no, he would rather hurt her than help her. A two year old!

There is a lot of stuff going on here. No way would I allow anyone to hurt my child-- bio dad or not. She is a *baby*. And even if she was not, it's still wrong--all wrong. Grabbing, threatening, hurting...*I* would call it abuse, or at least borderline abuse for those who think some of us AP types are too quick to say the world abuse. Not to mention, these are small *tiny* things-- what will happen when something really happens-- she has a potty accident, or throws up on him, or accidently breaks something of his?!


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I have an underlying fear of *all* men. Not just him. and no it doesn't stem from my childhood, long story short: Abusive relationship between the ages of 16-18 and multiple sexual assults between then and hooking up with DD's Bio-Idiot.

Anyway not fetching the markers would have made him yell at me for "Undermining his discipline choices"

Got yelled at for putting her teddybears back in her bed after the shower fiasco. And giving her a kiss nitenite....

He really *IS* a nice guy. I've known him since grade 4...and in all those years he's *NEVER* Treated me this way....

Trust me if I had the cash I'd go off to my mothers for a week or so and let him de-stress or whatever. It's been a pretty stressful time for us.. as I posted above. He's in the middle of a trade change, Stuck in a place which he HATES, I hate this base too...he's hounded non stop at school. Right now he's acctually stuck on PAT Platoon while he's between courses, and the only difference between PAT Platoon and Jail is, for those who have PMQ's they get to go home to their families at the end of the day. that is IT. No books, no TV, no cards, no hand held games, they sit there, looking at the walls for 8+hrs/day waiting for someone to tell them to do something. That and our finances are pretty tight right now...

I should tell him to play more video games...that's his stress release. Better than him constantly snapping on me and DD....


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

There are better ways to handle stress . Harming a two year old emotionally and physically isn't one of them.

I can see you are in a bad spot, so i am not going to whip on your arse, or blame the victim, but please think carefully and re-read what you wrote. A really nice guy does not hurt a toddler like that.

I am sure you could find many families here that have had to withstand great stress but did not take it out on a baby. There are other ways. Please take care, hon.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:

He really *IS* a nice guy. I've known him since grade 4...and in all those years he's *NEVER* Treated me this way....
Sorry, sweetie. This isn't true. He _has_ treated you this way - he's doing it now.

And it isn't "nice".

All that work stress is hard. But it isn't your fault. It certainly isn't your DD's fault. And DH has no business making it so. That's what Daddies do. They face the working world in order to provide a loving home for their families.

He is not doing that. You must make something change to protect your daughter.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I am going to ammend my thoughts a bit. I do think it's possible for a nice guy to lose it. He is being treated in a way at work that is trying to break him, yes? That has to be incredibly stressful. But you still have to protect your child.

Are there groups or programs on base that will help you to help your family? To protect your child? Is there a way to protect yourselves as he is undergoing this training?

What's happening to your child and you is wrongwrongwrong and could have horrible consequences. But sadly, and as unfair as it is, it's up to you to protect your child from terrible treatment. You're going to need help and I think you should call your base resources (and I am hoping they exist) today.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

yes he is being treated in a way to "break" him. He's a Corperal, but he's being treated as a right out of basic private. He's been in the forces for 7+ years now and has been through more crap than those buck privates have and he's being treated like them and it really isn't sitting well with him.. Wounds the pride I guess. You know, a war vet being stuck with a bunch of punk privates...it just isn't on in his eyes...

BEAUTIFUL MORE STRESS! I have a Housing inspection on the 19th *insert curse word* Glad I scheduled it for the day after I'm able to do a top to bottom clean job on this place.....He's gonna try his damndest to keep DD from playing with her toys for that night to keep it "Ship Shape" Even though the lady said it's just to check for stuff that needs repairing..


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

This is a shot in the dark... but sometimes I find that I have to act *very* strongly and assertively toward people who don't like to be questioned. If you question him, he will dig his heels in further and things will get worse. So don't question him. Tell him point blank that he is wrong. Shout if you have to (not in front of Brianna though.) Tell him exactly what you see, exactly why it is wrong, and make your expectations very clear. Pretend *you* are a drill seargent. Don't waver, and don't show fear. Something tells me you need to relate to him in a way that he can respect.

Just a thought.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Is there anywhere you can go? House inspection? That sounds invasive. Maybe take little girl away or set up an area for her to play with toys that night so it's easier to put away. I have an area that is play area in our common room...I had to do this after nearly tripping while carrying baby. So now we keep toys in an area. She can take a toy anywhere, just can't leave it there.

The military is really inhumane sometimes and the hardest part for the soldier is not taking it personally. They build these guys up to knock them down. It's for a reason but it's hard to take. I don't know how the soldiers do it. My hat is off to them...I would not make a very good soldier.

Still he has to stop taking it out on a toddler. She didn't join the military so she shouldn't have military tactics used on her. I am sure some of this is his military discipline being used. He needs to stop that now because she's little. You need to protect her. Discipline for a child is not the same as discipline for a soldier.

As to undermining discipline. I get that. You have to let the other parent discipline. BUT it can't be harmful...for instance...my hubby does things differently than I would..fine...but if he did what your DH did I would call him on it in a heartbeat, and if that caused him to do it more, well he would have to leave until he learned some parenting skills. You have to call them on being mean...that's not undermining discipline because that's not discipline...discipline teaches and guides...and unless his goal is to make her afraid and dislike him, this isn't the way to go.

I am sorry you are in this position. I can't even imagine it. I have a child the same age and can only imagine her heartbreak if her daddy treated her that way









Why don't you offer to take over the discipline of dd completely until his training is completed. Offer it up as one less stressor. Tell him you notice he's behaving differently.

Or do all the stressful things with her(bedtime and meals) but just let him do play things with her. Just for a while.

Once things settle then try talking to him about it when he's not in themiddle of the discipline. Then it's not undermining, it's discussing.

By the way, I hate being questioned as well. "why did you do it that way?" is automatically a criticism to me.

I like Mamaducks idea about relating to him in a way that he understands like a drill seargant.

I hope this gets resolved soon

more hugs
Carolyn


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Ok, I have no clue where to post this, PAP, Blended families or what, so mods, feel free to move it wherever. I figure I'll toss it here for now because it seems like the best fit.

Ok, First off my DH isn't my DD's bio dad. her bio dad isn't involved in the picture at all, my DH acctually adopted my DD as his own.

Let's Just say his discipline choices arent some that I agree with, and I
can't correct him because it just means he'll get more and more
authoritarian towards her to spite me...
Now, I'm FAR from the paragon of GD here. I yell. I do Coersion. I do time outs *very rarely* I also use rewards and bribes.

One scenario: She kept dropping her markers *Crayola Magicolor the
REAL expensive ones that only color on certain paper* he goes "Keep
dropping them and I'll throw them out" She kept dropping them. He
threw them out. Now come on, the LOGICAL thing to do would be "Oh I
see you're done coloring, help me put these away" No, he didn't do
that, he threw out a $10 marker/book set teaching her that
her stuff is not worth a hill of beans.

Second: Last night She didn't wanna stand up for her shower.
Instead of asking her if she was tired and HELPING her use her words, he
said, "STAND UP NOW for shower or you dont get a rockabye and I take all
your teddies away" She kept ragdolling down and he kept reefing her
up by the arm, because obviously this hurt her feelings, AND she was
in some sort of physical pain last night too, and she was
TERRIFIED of him. You could tell. He *MAKES* her look up in the
shower, which she's terrified of, she isnt' ready for it. Me I don't
care. It takes a little *more* work to rinse her hair after the
shampoo but it's no big deal. It's one of those things that you pick
your battles on.

But I can't correct him not even out of the sight/hearing of Brianna
because he'll just dig his heals in and be even meaner to her...









I know he adopted her, and I know he loves her, but he's not bonded
to her like I am...and that concerns me....He can't "hear" or "see" what
he's doing to her...

He wonders why she wont snuggle in with him, he wonders why she isn't
all lovey dovey with him. He's MEAN to her....of course it doesn't
matter now does it because she's just a kid and it's an important
life lesson right? 

The taking away the Rock-a-Bye and her teddies last night, that was the final straw..

As I said I have no clue where this belongs but I'd toss it out here...

My dh is also not the biodad of my dd and although he loves her as if he does he has no right to treat any of my children ungently. THey depend on ME for their protection. And I will lose any man who treats my children in this way.
The rule with my dd in our house is that if he has a concern about her behavior he brings it to ME and I deal with it. We discuss everything but I do 100% of the discipline. HE gets his say, but he doesnt discipline her directly.
We have 3 other children together and he does discipline them gently as he has learned over the last 5 years what that means. And I had to draw the line that he was not to spank our children. And while he did not initially agree, he is now in 100% total agreement.
*No man is worth the spirit of your child.*


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

:


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OK, I'm going to take a different tract here and suggest that maybe instead of correcting his *methods* (which clearly do need to be addressed), you delve into what appropriate expectations and behavior is for your child's age? It seems to me that he's just expecting too much from a child that small. I firmly believe that a LOT of the reason people are harsh with children (besides it's "how they were raised, and they turned out fine"







) is because they just expect more than small children are able to give emotionally, physically, or intellectually.

Impulse control does NOT become even remotely reliable for children, until I think they're at LEAST 3 or 4....and that's not even saying that it will happen every time - heck, that's just when they start recognizing - "I want to do this, but I probably shouldn't, so OK, maybe I won't".

Maybe, if you approached your DH not as "You need to stop being so mean/rough/mad/whatever at DD" (which he does, I know) but instead approach him as "I'm finding out more about child development and everything she is doing is normal so we have to let her grow, etc.' - In other words, it's not 'correcting his parenting', which you said would make him dig his heels in, but instead saying - 'hey, I'm learning stuff that I didn't know before (even if you did know it before), and we can't expect DD to understand things until she's older" - get into her emotional social, intellectual development, and take it from that route. I know I had a conversation with my DH, who comes from a punitive family background, and was gettign frustrated with repeated requests to DS to do or not do something, I just told him - 'look, he may "know" you told him to shut the faucet off, but he just can't relate it and follow through on his own yet, so you need to *show* him yourself, after the first time you ask, and not wait until you're mad about it. ' And for some reason it clicked with DH, and has been doing a good job with DS and redirecting or facilitating things since.

So with the marker thing: Suggest that when he says "Don't drop the markers" all she really hears is "drop the markers" -at her age....it needs to be reframed as "please keep the markers on the desk" or something - you have to tell kids at this age what TO do, not what NOT to do - it's just the way their brain is wired - and probably just doesn't get that - I know my DH didn't. I think a lot of people don't.

You already know he's got some serious anger issues here, so I'm not going to get into that. I'm just hoping to maybe offer you a different approach that won't seem to him like you're "attacking" him, but just talking about her and her developmental stages together.

There are lots of resources for information about child development and appropriate developmental stages on the web; I'd suggest printing some out and reading them to him or with him, or highlighting areas of them....if you need some suggestions, I'm sure I could dig up som eof the old links I had saved for DS, just let me know.

I hope maybe this gives you another idea of a way to approach it, so his perception isn't that you're attackin ghim, but looking to parent your DD better "together". If you can lay out the developmental appropriateness of her actions to him, then you can start to tack on the ends of them, "and doing this really works well because then they learn the 'why' behind it, not to just stop whatever because we said." Or soemthing like that - you can try to tie it all in.

However, if that wouldn't work either, I would seriously suggest thinking about your relationship with him. Even if he's never been that way before, he is now, and no matter what kind of stress he's going through at work or wherever, it doesn't change the fact that he's being too hard on a child that's not developmentally able to do what he's expecting. If he is unwilling to change or to consider seeing that, then you have to think about your relationship with him, not his relationship with your daughter.

I wish you MUCH luck with this difficult situation.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

I have an underlying fear of *all* men.

Quote:

she was
TERRIFIED of him.
No amount of my fear would stop me from stopping someone who was causing my dc fear. I don't mean to sound harsh, I understand he is going through stress, so are you and dd. I have done what pp suggested because my dp had different views on discipline than me. I handled all of the potentially stressful or whatever







situations myself. Still mostly do. My dp has learned from watching me, discussing discipline when there was no issue happening, and from me reading snippets to him here and there.

And as for the shower thing-NO. PERIOD. YOU give your dd a bath. PERIOD. He doesn't have to like it, he can get angry. His anger does NOT outweigh your daughter's fear and right to not have her body handled roughly.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Anyway not fetching the markers would have made him yell at me for "Undermining his discipline choices"

Got yelled at for putting her teddybears back in her bed after the shower fiasco. And giving her a kiss nitenite....

He really *IS* a nice guy. I've known him since grade 4...and in all those years he's *NEVER* Treated me this way....

I can't think of a gentle way to put this; I'm sorry. He's abusive, and you're making excuses for him. So he "only" gets abusive when he's stressed - its still abuse. Control is abuse.

You deserve to be treated better. You deserve to be treated like an equal partner in this relationship and in parenting this child. It doesn't matter that he is stressed. Do you get abusive when you are stressed? Does he walk on eggshells and try not to set you off because he's afraid you'll take it out on his child when you're stressed? Would he be afraid to take something you threw away out of the garbage because it was too expensive to throw away, and didn't belong to you anyway, when you are stressed?

Stop this now. Set firm boundaries. Don't worry about his career, his label... you need to show him NOW that his behavior is not acceptable under any circumstances or it will just get worse for you and your DD. Your needs are just as important as his.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

double post


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies, because I don't have time right now and I shouldn't even be on MDC.







But I simply could NOT read your post and not post.

My dad acted towards me and my sister in exactly the same way as your DH acts towards your DD, and my mom acted exactly the same way you are acting - she didn't interfere b/c then he would turn it on HER.

I have CRAZY bitterness and resentment for both my parents because of this.

I also grew up FEARING MEN (which I know you don't want for your daughter!!) and having major issues with boundaries.

That's all I will say since I'm in a hurry but I DO consider my dad's treatment of me to be abuse and I am so, so alarmed by your post.

Stand up for your daughter. It is the only thing to do. You and she are in for a lifetime of hurt if you don't nip this in the bud. My poor mom (who is a lovely lovely person and loves us so much) is racked with guilt about how she let us suffer at our dad's hands (and yes, we suffered, even though he never did anything that would get CPS called...abuse can take many subtler forms than just beating the crap out of your kids). My sister and I have a hard time trusting anyone and we have very troubled relationships w/ our dad.

Whether he is her adopted dad matters not one bit, he's the dad she knows.

You have got to put your foot down even if it seems to escalate things in the short term.










Elizabeth


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

please do not sacrifice your daughter's well being to make you safe and keep your marriage together.

in the end your child will grow up and she will know that you did that and that you failed at one of the most important jobs a parent has: to protect helpless, powerless children form things harmful to them.

is it worth it?

i really don't give a d*** about your husband's red flags, your precious little gift, your daughter NEEDS you to be strong for her.

if i were you, and of course, i'm not, i would tell him, you have 2 choices, sign a contract to never act like that again with my child AND get anger management counseling OR get out.

i'm afraid there would be no middle ground with me, period. this isn't able discipline, it's about abuse.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

thanks for the responses.

Even though alot of the opinions expressed about my husband are based on those two situations described.

He is NOT An abusive git. Seriously. Those are just two situations. On the whole he IS a gentle loving father. He cocks up. We all do. He doesn't have the basic understanding of toddler behaviour. I'm sorry it came across that way and I didn't word it right....I just need advice on how to help him "Get it" and I've gotten some fairly good advice in this thread.

I tried to paint the full picture....that we are in an extremely CRAPPY situation right now across the board...Just need help on how to minimize the impact of this stress on my DD. I'm stressed he's stressed.. Doesn't make his treatment of DD "right" but it gives an explination.

Just need suggestions on how to "Gently" point out to him how he's being a craptastic person to her at times.

Mabe I should let him hang out in the door way as I bathe her to show him how I do it with no conflict....mabe instead of him hiding in his cubby hole he should acctually observe a day between DD and I...

His upbringing was abusive...my MIL changed her ways after her youngest DS was born. But DH is the oldest of the 3 so he got the brunt of it...but my DH was the one who pointed it out to her that she was being a craptastic parent, when he was 10yrs old...I remember it well, because I was there for him when he came to school that day after the blow up...he felt horrible...

So please I know I posted two scenarios, and online it's difficult to accurately judge a human being based on just *two* scenarios....Part of it is my fault for not painting a full picture *I'm notorious for doing that* But please don't assume he's a cruel jackass. Would a cruel jackass adopt a child that isn't his? Would a cruel jackass become a daddy to a child that has none? seriously...I see the big picture.

He needs help, I know that...but condemning him isn't constructive either...

He has his moments we all do, I just need help getting him "through" those moments, mabe even preventing them in the first place. KWIM?

Thank you for the advice that was given however....about how to deal with him on his own level militarily..

Thanks for letting me vent as well....


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## Owen'nZoe (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:

My dad acted towards me and my sister in exactly the same way as your DH acts towards your DD, and my mom acted exactly the same way you are acting - she didn't interfere b/c then he would turn it on HER. I have CRAZY bitterness and resentment for both my parents because of this.









I usually just lurk here, but this thread has really spoken to me, because my family situation was the same growing up. I have forgiven my parents now, but it took me well into my twenties to do so, and I still remember vividly being a very young child, crying in my room after dad had handed out an unfair punishment, and wondering more than anything why my mom wasn't protecting me and why she didn't love me enough to at least come in and hug me. Now of course I know that she did love me - she was just scared of my dad, too, but at the time that seemed like the only explanation.

You really do need to find a way to help your DH learn to parent more effectively. And I completely agree with one PP's suggestion that he really needs to learn more about child development. He clearly has no idea what she is developmentally capable of. On a positive note on this subject about my dad







- several years ago he apologized to me for something that happened when I was about 2 - I don't even remember it of course. Without getting into too many details, he also punished me for something that developmentally I shouldn't have been expected to be able to do. All these years later he said that if he had known that I really wasn't capable of doing what he was asking me to do, he wouldn't have gotten so mad, and that he still regretted it. Maybe you could help your DH understand exactly what a toddler is capable of and what she is not to start out with - and then work on more appropriate responses from there.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

OK, I will work within the assumption that he is not abusive and that these were two isolated incidents. You have asked that we try to see him in the big picture, and I will try to do that for you.

While he may be a great guy, he was, in fact, abusive in these two situations. If he forces her to put her face in the water everyday during her shower, then he is abusive everyday. You wouldn't let him do that to you, you shouldn't let him do that to her. This is all about his controlling these situations, not actually trying to teach her something. Children cannot learn through force.

Secondly, he is abusive when he intimidates you. If you are afraid of suggesting an alternative (like not throwing away markers), then that is his abusing his power.

My husband is an amazing daddy. He has cosmically more patience than I ever will. He can find ways to explain things to our son that make my son get it and just glow. He rocks.

But we went through a time of severe sleep deprivation, which led to crazy stress. One night, he picked up DS too roughly to hand him to me. DS did not even cry, so it was not too bad. But to see it infuriated me. I grabbed DH's shirt, pulled his face to mine, and said, "If you EVER handle my child that way again, I will leave you and you will never see this child again. Go to bed, and get some sleep. You had better wake up in a better mood." I wasn't joking. He was afraid of the way he had reacted to DS, and there has not been a problem since.

You need to step in when he is disrespectful to her. It is breaking her pure little spirit.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
thanks for the responses.

Even though alot of the opinions expressed about my husband are based on those two situations described.

He is NOT An abusive git. Seriously. Those are just two situations. On the whole he IS a gentle loving father. He cocks up. We all do. He doesn't have the basic understanding of toddler behaviour. I'm sorry it came across that way and I didn't word it right....I just need advice on how to help him "Get it" and I've gotten some fairly good advice in this thread.

I tried to paint the full picture....that we are in an extremely CRAPPY situation right now across the board...Just need help on how to minimize the impact of this stress on my DD. I'm stressed he's stressed.. Doesn't make his treatment of DD "right" but it gives an explination.

Just need suggestions on how to "Gently" point out to him how he's being a craptastic person to her at times.

Mabe I should let him hang out in the door way as I bathe her to show him how I do it with no conflict....mabe instead of him hiding in his cubby hole he should acctually observe a day between DD and I...

His upbringing was abusive...my MIL changed her ways after her youngest DS was born. But DH is the oldest of the 3 so he got the brunt of it...but my DH was the one who pointed it out to her that she was being a craptastic parent, when he was 10yrs old...I remember it well, because I was there for him when he came to school that day after the blow up...he felt horrible...

So please I know I posted two scenarios, and online it's difficult to accurately judge a human being based on just *two* scenarios....Part of it is my fault for not painting a full picture *I'm notorious for doing that* But please don't assume he's a cruel jackass. Would a cruel jackass adopt a child that isn't his? Would a cruel jackass become a daddy to a child that has none? seriously...I see the big picture.

He needs help, I know that...but condemning him isn't constructive either...

He has his moments we all do, I just need help getting him "through" those moments, mabe even preventing them in the first place. KWIM?

Thank you for the advice that was given however....about how to deal with him on his own level militarily..

Thanks for letting me vent as well....


Pandora, you sound

JUST LIKE MY MOTHER

excusing my father's behavior.

As a PP said, even if it was ONLY those 2 situations and never any others, he was abusive in those situations, so that needs to be addressed! It's not about condemning him. It's about protecting your DD and changing the situation. Also, you wouldn't have brought the issue to MDC if it wasn't a pattern.

When I was 6 I got a bike for Christmas. It had training wheels. I begged to take them off after a few days so I could "really" ride a bike. My dad knew I wasn't ready and he asked me if I was sure I wanted them off. I said YES. He took them off and sure enough I kept falling down.

He threw my bike in the trash, screamed at me and sent me to my room. I sobbed myself to sleep, humiliated and despondent over the loss of my bike. My mom never said anything to me about this, although she did get the bike out of the trash. (My uncle was over at our house the next weekend and patiently worked with me until I did learn to ride it...)

So maybe for a month before and after the bike incident my dad was a stellar father. It doesn't matter. What I remember is him roughly grabbing me off the bike, throwing the bike in the dumpster and sending me in tears to my room.

Think about that.


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

I grew up in a very abusive environment too, and honestly it's darn hard work to keep it together sometimes. I've never hurt my child. I've yelled and have not been 100% GD, but then who is? Anyway, my point is that YES coming from an abusive background makes parenting a very difficult job, but YES it is possible to stop the circle of abuse. I'm not suggesting that your DH is abusive. I agree with you that we've only been given two low moments, and we all have low moments. But I do think that given his upbringing he's more predisposed towards becoming abusive than the average parent. All of us abused adult children are.

It IS your job to keep Brianna safe, body and soul, and I'm sorry you're all going through such a tough time right now. But I understand loving someone who parents in a way that is hard to swallow. My DH is much more harsh than I am. When DS was about 2.5 there was a bathtime struggle (much like you discribed) where dh was grabbing ds by the arm and holding him up so that he could wash his lower body. I didn't realise how much of a struggle they were having and I was "scared" to intervene because I *KNEW* my husband would jump my case for undermining him. So I ignored every instinct I had to rush in and scoop up my baby and lock my dh out of the bathroom. After his bath I was rubbing lotion on ds and noticed BRUISES on my son's arm! He bruised where my husband was holding him. Just thinking about that makes me want to vomit. After i got ds to bed I sat dh down and had a very serious talk with him. I flatly told him that his behavior needed to change and it needed to change quick because I knew how much he loves our son and how heartbroken he'd be if we left him...But that if he EVER EVER was anything less than gentle with him again, we'd be out the door. It's been about a year and he's improved 100%. He still is sometimes unreasonable in his expectations, but he's not physical anymore. And I've learned to listen to that gut instinct that says "Go to your kid". I find that saying something along the lines of "Honey, I can see that you're stressed out. You go relax, I'll get him" works. If it dosen't I'll make my voice firm and say "I need you go go relax now. I will get him."

Keep your daughter safe, mama. For her sake, stand up to your husband and tell him that things are different and you will not stand for anymore of his harshness. And I totally agree with the others, Screw the "red flag" career excuse. Military or not, nobody has the right to emotionally and physically harm a child and use his career as an excuse to not get help. Give him the ultimatum and have the courage to stand by it. When he sees your serious he'll be more likely to change.

Good luck!


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## cam&kat's_mom (Jan 12, 2006)

not a whoel ot to say on this except a couple things....

1) war vet or not, that is NO way for ANYONE to treat a child
2) stop making excuses for him and get him to get help or get out
3)it is NOT unreasonable that a 2.5 YO not take a shower (as in stand up shower ) so no clue what his underlying issue really is
4)stand up for yourself or you are teaching your child that it is okay for men to treat women this way
5) get yourself some help so that you aren't feeling at ropes end with the situation

A person can only change if they want to.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Would a cruel jackass adopt a child that isn't his? Would a cruel jackass become a daddy to a child that has none?

Of course. It happens ALL the time.

I don't mean to sound flippant and this comment is not specific to your dh...I just want to point out that the fact that he did these things does not, IMO, have anything to do with the current situation.








: to you, Pandora. I sincerely hope you and your dh can work this out. I second (or third) the suggestion of counseling. Teaching your dh about normal toddler behavior is one thing, but it also sounds like there are anger management/control issues here that go far beyond your daughter. As it does to other posters, it sounds to me that the "issue" here is really between you and your dh and that your daughter is, unfortunately, caught in the middle.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

i just want to point out (gently) that this isn't about him or his upbringing, or about you and your relationship with him. this is about your daughter. do what's right for her. she doesn't have choices, she needs her mommy to protect her.

i think we get so caught up in the drama of out adult lives that we forget that it only takes a few episodes like this to effect a child. one book that i found helpful (i grew up in an abusive home and have anger problems sometimes too, esp. when my severe PMS wasn't being treated and i was off the walls tense)

the book is called "When Anger Hurts Your Kids: A Parent's Guide"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157...lance&n=283155

since he was abused as a child, even more reason to make sure he gets some help... stuff like this can easily spiral out of control into self-abuse, depression and suicide.

i wouldn't worry too much about the red-flag thing. if he is arrested for hurting your or ends up trying to hurt himself, they red flag isn't gonna make much difference at that point... it take a big person to ask for help. help your husband get the help he needs before it's too late. before something happens that you really can't ever fix. (just read a local story about a vet who stabbed his wife and two daughters, two of whom died.)

okay, i'm done, PM me if you want any more suggestions for books or counselors. (i'm a former therapist too)

hugs and GL!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Wow -- I have to say that I totally understand "loosing it" and acting out of anger, and I'm ashamed to say that I've done it in the past. And while I didn't like being corrected in the moment, I am grateful to my spouse in retrospect for supporting me and helping me to do better. I'm just going to assume these were some really low moments for your DH, and not his usual manner of relating to his child.

That said -- I wonder if it could be helpful to video tape him when he is unaware, and then show him the tape? I strongly suspect that he has no concept of how harsh and scary he sounds and looks in relation to a little tiny girl. I also think it could be helpful to remind him that the way he treats his daughter now will help to determine what sort of treatment she will tolerate from men later on. He should treat her as well as he hopes any man will.


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## AccidentalHousewif (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
...not fetching the markers would have made him yell at me for "Undermining his discipline choices"

Got yelled at for putting her teddybears back in her bed after the shower fiasco. And giving her a kiss nitenite....

What about him undermining YOUR discipline choices about being gentle and developmentally appropriate with your dd (who is still a BABY, really)?

He's acting (at least in these instances) like an abusive, arbitrary, authoritarian father to BOTH of you. Somehow, you must find a way to stand up for yourself as well as your dd.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
He really *IS* a nice guy. I've known him since grade 4...and in all those years he's *NEVER* Treated me this way....

If this is true, then he ought to be receptive to your communicating to him, gently but firmly, that he is:

* terrifying your dd and damaging his relationship with her
* terrifying you and damaging his relationship with you
* acting out in ways that have surprised and shocked you since they are so unlike the person you have known since childhood

So he has a stressful career that seems incompatible with seeking family counseling -- well, then either he's going to have to get a handle on his anger and inappropriate behavior on his own, or he's going to have to choose between having his career red flag-free or having his family (you & dd). You don't have to tell him that in a threatening way -- you just have to believe it for your daughter's sake and for your own.

And if another situation like the shower/bedtime thing develops, it would be totally appropriate for you to step in and take him on by flat-out telling him this isn't discipline, it's abuse and it's disrespectful and hurtful to both you and your dd.

Like some of the pps, I do think it would be helpful for you to seek counseling on your own even if your husband won't also participate. Your posts raise some "red flags" of their own about potential co-dependent & enabling behavior on your part (in past relationships if not always in this one), so perhaps a CODA or Al-Anon meeting would also be helpful to you.

Hang in there, and hug your dd a little extra. I also agree with pps that perhaps you can minimize the potential conflict between her and dh by taking over most things like bathing, feeding, cleaning up after playing, etc. Can your mom or a friend come stay with you a while to help out & help defuse the situation?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I can't comment on what he's like "most of the time" but in the shower example, I would define his behavior as "abusive." Your description of him sets up "red flags" to me- the way you're afraid of him, the way he denies responsibility for his own behavior (blaming his prior traumas)- these are clues that he _may be_ abusive to both of you.

I'm not saying that you HAVE TO leave him immediately, or that he has absolutely no chance of getting help and developing a healthy relationship with both of you. What I *AM* saying is that things appear to be unhealthy right now, and changes need to be made to keep your DD safe.

I suggest that you check out the link in my signature- there's lots of info about domestic abuse and resources available. I suggest you contact that organization and get some counseling for yourself- to help you learn to stand up to your DH when necessary, figure out why you're afraid of men, etc. Worry about taking care of YOURSELF- your DH will only accept help if and when he's ready to. You don't have to be in a "definitely recognizable abusive relationship" to take advantage of the DV resources such as counseling.

What can you do to keep your DD safe right now? Whether your DH is abusive or not, he has issues, your DD is afraid of him, and isn't very effective at childcare/discipline right now. I think that YOU bathing her daily is a logical first step. If you can take over all of her discipline that would be even better.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I have to agree with the others, in that I think you should take a serious look at the big picture. I have to say that I think he sounds abusive to both of you to.

But, in the short term... You said no counceling because it would look bad for him. I think you could find something somehow that no one would know about. Also, I would like to suggest that you find some sort of counceling FOR YOURSELF so you can explore this relationship a bit. The military is powerful, but they can't see everything you do, so go find something for yourself.

What about BOTH of you taking a parenting class togehter. OFF base, in the community. Very carefully screened by you to be gentle in emphasis. This really helped my DH and I work on the same page, even though we didn't have the same issues as you two do. We would go to class together (along with kid's godparents and designated guardians so we would all agree when we cared for each others kids), then take time to talk through each concept afterwards. It was such a good thing for working together and knowing that we both had the same understanding.

Can you point out that a strong preference for mommy is natural at this age, especially for little girls, and use that (rather than his "performance" as a dad) to make sure that only you handle basic care, especially such delicate things as showers? Toddlers are so hard to work with anyway, and adding his style to the mix must be really hard on all of you. Even though it means more work for you, wouldn't it be worth it for her sake?

But, in the end, you have longer term, larger picture issues that you really do need to deal with. I am sorry and I wish you all the luck in the world with it.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Um. I got to this point and had to post again. Haven't read past this.

Quote:

He is NOT An abusive git. Seriously. Those are just two situations.
But what then _is_ an "abusive git" if not someone who does abusive things? I can't think of one abuser who abused when they weren't "cocked up" a bit. That's what distinguishes abusers - they take out their *stress* on weaker people who can't stop them.

Just beacuse he's not doing that constantly doesn't mean he is not abusing her.

*HE IS.*

I must note that you also sound *just like* my mother who made excuses for my abusive father and step-father. It is the biggest issue I have with her now, and that I will never forgive her for - she decided I was not worth protecting.

To this day she minimizes the hell that went on in our home.

_*Please listen to those of us who are your DD all grown up.*_


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

:


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*

_*Please listen to those of us who are your DD all grown up.*_









:


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## rebeccalizzie (Apr 1, 2005)

I would like to second, third, fourth whatever all the pp's who said to get counselling for yourself. The things that stand out in your post to me are that you are afraid of standing up to your DH, even though he is a great guy and not abusive. If he's such a great guy, you shouldn't be afraid of him. Whether that is your issues with fear of men or whether he is a scary guy and you haven't admitted it to yourself yet is totally impossible for me to judge. If you don't stand up to him, he thinks what he is doing is okay. And if he feels out of control, he probably doesn't much like knowing that you won't stop him if he goes way over the line.

Here are my thoughts. My DH adopted my DD when she was 5, btw. She's never met her biological father.

I get stressed, and I have been known to yell at my DD for the *dumbest* stuff. When I do that, DH diffuses the situation however he can. If he thinks it will work, he'll make a joke. If not, he'll take over and "give me a break". He does it in a very caring way and I usually don't even quite realize I was out of control until it is over. And then I apologize to DD, and promise to try to do better, and I am a *lot* better than I used to be. I'm *always* glad that DH stops me. It makes DD feel protected (hopefully) and keeps me from going further out of control than I already am. I'm not proud that this happens, but I'm grateful that she has a daddy to protect her if I'm being mean.

Same with me--DH likes to threaten to throw things away if they aren't put away, and he did it once. I rescued it silently (it was DD's CD player, and it was too expensive to pitch even if I did agree with that form of discipline). And I put it aside so he didn't see it for a day or two. A few days later, I told him that I didn't think that was appropriate, so I took it out of the trash and told DD she had lost it for a week. He wasn't thrilled with me, but he realized that what he had done was out of line and really mean, and he apologized to DD. BTW...I told DD right away so she didn't go on thinking it was still in the garbage. I just said Dad and I had decided to take it out of the trash, because I knew he'd be okay with it once I told him.

The thing is, we are both her parents. We both have to protect her, and we both agree that she is more important than undermining each other, so long as we don't do it often. If I think a punishment is a tiny bit harsh, I let it go (although I may tell him I thought it was harsh later when she is asleep). But if DH is way over the line, I have to stand up for DD, and if I'm out of control DH has to stand up for DD.

Hope this helps...


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## tansyflower (Sep 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
This is a shot in the dark... but sometimes I find that I have to act *very* strongly and assertively toward people who don't like to be questioned. If you question him, he will dig his heels in further and things will get worse. So don't question him. Tell him point blank that he is wrong. Shout if you have to (not in front of Brianna though.) Tell him exactly what you see, exactly why it is wrong, and make your expectations very clear. Pretend *you* are a drill seargent. Don't waver, and don't show fear. Something tells me you need to relate to him in a way that he can respect.

Just a thought.

Exactly the approach I would take.

We have taken that approach with my dad who is military and has just come into our life. He has not had the gradual experience of becoming a grandparent and his reaction to my children, 3 & 1, is often less than ideal. He cannot handle a "discussion" whith questions and that sort of thing, but he does respond well to a flat out statement. He has made a lot of progress once he decided it would be worthwhile to change, for our sake and his.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Well last night DH was gonna go give DD her nightly bath/shower combo.

I waved him into the computer room and said *So she couldn't hear me Grump at daddy*

"Hon, why don't you just let her look down in the shower, it's no big deal, it's just gonna make her more scared of water in the long run if you force the issue. Just takes a little more work to rinse her hair. trust me that's why we don't have issues anymore becuase I dont see the point in making her look up" *I tried once gave up after 2 attempts*

He got sulky of course, then I reminded him that if he keeps up his asshatish behavior to her that she's gonna withdrawl even more from him and it's gonna ruin everything he's worked for in gaining her trust over the past year.

That did it for him.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Well last night DH was gonna go give DD her nightly bath/shower combo.

I waved him into the computer room and said *So she couldn't hear me Grump at daddy*

"Hon, why don't you just let her look down in the shower, it's no big deal, it's just gonna make her more scared of water in the long run if you force the issue. Just takes a little more work to rinse her hair. trust me that's why we don't have issues anymore becuase I dont see the point in making her look up" *I tried once gave up after 2 attempts*

He got sulky of course, then I reminded him that if he keeps up his asshatish behavior to her that she's gonna withdrawl even more from him and it's gonna ruin everything he's worked for in gaining her trust over the past year.

That did it for him.

Good start!









Glad to hear it. At least he can be reasoned with.

Take care


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

*


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

And I re-iterate

I AM SCARED OF ALL MEN.

Not just him, but ALL MEN. ok? I was in an abusive relationship for 2 years in high school, I was RAPED multiple times by a few different men.

So yeah, I'm rightly scared of men so having a man look at me the wrong way makes me want to cringe. Got it? Good. It's not HIM it's ME. He could just look at me the wrong way and I cringe and it has NOTHING to do with him as a person but all about me. For cripes sakes. *I AM TERRIFIED OF MEN IN GENERAL* what part of that don't you understand. It's not him it's ME ME ME ALL ME.

Does he know this? Yeah. Does he "Get" it, no not really, what man does?

ETA: I've been to more counsellors that I can shake a stick at. none has helped. I've been on more brain candy, and self medicated as well. Nothing has helped. I"ve accepted the fact that this is the way I am. I've acctually found a man who's been patient enough to work with me through my quirks and foilbles and baggage. This is all my problem. Sure he needs to work through some of his anger issues, but alot of the way *I* React to it is *MY* problems. Most women would go "Oh well he's having a bad day" whereas I cower in the corner and cry. Does that make sense now?

Right now, I'm having virtual panic attacks because I'm gonna have to let some strange dude into my house to do an inspection next week. My DH is gonna be at work. No way he can get the day off. I'm having visions of him trying to assult me and me stabbing him and me going off to jail. This is how dibilitating this is. When I can't allow a routine handyman into my house.


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## janebug (May 25, 2005)

mama and







love to you. i wish you the best in doing what is right for you and your daughter. how hard this must be for you. i hope and pray you can find a way out of your fear. noone should have to live in fear, not you, not your daughter, not anyone.
may your husband find a way out of his own anger and fear.
i'll be thinking of you.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

pandora, i hope you get some help that is truely healing for you. i have found EMDR therapy very helpful for trauma related issues.

PM me if you want some help in finding an EMDR therapist where you live.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
So yeah, I'm rightly scared of men so having a man look at me the wrong way makes me want to cringe. Got it? Good. It's not HIM it's ME. He could just look at me the wrong way and I cringe and it has NOTHING to do with him as a person but all about me. For cripes sakes. *I AM TERRIFIED OF MEN IN GENERAL* what part of that don't you understand. It's not him it's ME ME ME ALL ME.

I'm really trying my best not to come off as condescending but to be empathetic here. Because I am. I have also been severely abused for long periods of time by many people. *I do get it.* I mean that with empathy - not snarkiness.

If you are afraid of all men, that means that you don't distinguish your fear "baggage" from the fear he generates? Do I have that right? Since you are afraid all the time anyway, you can't distinguish that white-noise of fear from the fear you see in your DD?

Your not seeing what he's doing in your home doesn't mean he isn't doing it. Your previous abuse is not the issue here, except that it stops your from looking at this with fresh eyes. _He_ is currently hurting your family and hiding behind _your_ past.

Having past trauma doesn't mean that anytime anyone hurts you for the rest of your life it's your fault beacuse you were already hurt before...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Does he know this? Yeah. Does he "Get" it, no not really, what man does?

I'm sorry to bear some good news/bad news: Plenty of men out there "get it". Lots, in fact. And more still may not understand it, but are extremely open to hearing about how you feel and _honoring_ that.

And I would not react to my DH treating DS the way you have described by saying "Oh well, he's having a bad day." I think that all of us here are trying to tell you that other women would NOT say or think that. You intuition may have suffered some damage, but that doesn't mean you can never listen to it or trust it again.

I'm very sorry you're having panic attacks about the inspection. Can you just be running "important errands" at that time? "Oooo, something came up I have to handle at the bank right now - sorry!" That might be enough to get you through the panic.

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with the EMDR and also DNMS (and off-shoot of EMDR). It is the best thing at actually healing trauma. Not many other therapies have worked for me, but EMDR is fabulous. Please check the background of any therapist you might consider. EMDR is a specialty that requires training and not all EMDR therapists (even ones list as EMDR in insurance references) actually did the training. I personally have a close friend who had worse problems after an uncredentialed therapist treated her. She's doing very well now after changing to another one.

Any bad therapist can do a serious number on you. I hope that you keep searching and find a great one. There is nothing like it when you do.

Good luck - keep safe - and hug your DD lots!








s


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## AccidentalHousewif (Nov 11, 2005)

I sounds like your dh is receptive, so that's a good start







Maybe he just needs those gentle reminders & guidance from you to keep him on the right track with your dd.

But I do hope you get some good help & support elsewhere -- no one should have to live in so much fear & anxiety! Like a pp, I want you to know how sympathetic I am to your history and feelings, but I also just want to shake you into some consciousness about your obligations as a mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
It's not HIM it's ME. He could just look at me the wrong way and I cringe and it has NOTHING to do with him as a person but all about me. For cripes sakes. *I AM TERRIFIED OF MEN IN GENERAL* what part of that don't you understand. It's not him it's ME ME ME ALL ME.

That might be an OK way to leave it if there weren't children involved. But there's got to be some room in that dynamic for your dd to get taken care of, including your intervening on her behalf when necessary (even if you're afraid to stand up to your dh). Saying "it's all me" as emphatically as you just have, well -- that gives him a free pass to do whatever without any push-back from you.

And as the pp observed, your feeling anxious & scared all the time doesn't mean that there aren't situations (like the original scenarios with dd that you described) in which feeling anxious & scared is an entirely appropriate response to unacceptable, abusive behavior by a man in your life. Like the old joke, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not actually out to get you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
I've been to more counsellors that I can shake a stick at. none has helped. I've been on more brain candy, and self medicated as well. Nothing has helped. I"ve accepted the fact that this is the way I am. I've acctually found a man who's been patient enough to work with me through my quirks and foilbles and baggage. This is all my problem. Sure he needs to work through some of his anger issues, but alot of the way *I* React to it is *MY* problems. Most women would go "Oh well he's having a bad day" whereas I cower in the corner and cry. Does that make sense now?.

It does make sense, but it is NOT "all your problem" -- the situation creates problems for your dd as well. What worries me about your explanation is how resigned you seem to your living in fear and avoidance, that you seem to have given up on a life of peace & strength: not only do YOU deserve better (and you DO), but your dd needs you to be capable of being there for her, and in a healthy marriage your dh needs that as well.

So the counseling and medication you've tried so far haven't helped. So try something else. It's not OK to give up on yourself, for dd's sake if not your own. The pps have given some good suggestions, and there's the Surviving Abuse forum here on MDC if you don't already hang out there...


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I think that reply must have been provoked by the deleted post above it.


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

My dh has never, **not ever**, no matter what sort of stress he was under (and there has been **plenty** including death, sickness, job stress), has *ever* acted in a way which frightened me or my baby.

It's hard to stay quiet when it's clear he's abusing your baby emotionally and physically, and you as well.

Your fear of him is harming her as much as his anger and abuse is.

Honest to god. Your first post didn't worry me as much as your subsequent posts.

Maybe therapy didn't work for you in the past, and perhaps it will never work for you. But really? Do you want your baby to think as you do when she is your age? Do you want her to think her life has to be filled with the same self-loathing, anger and fear that yours is? Do you want her to think she deserves what you feel?


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pandora114*
Right now, I'm having virtual panic attacks because I'm gonna have to let some strange dude into my house to do an inspection next week. My DH is gonna be at work. No way he can get the day off. I'm having visions of him trying to assult me and me stabbing him and me going off to jail. This is how dibilitating this is. When I can't allow a routine handyman into my house.

I'm so sorry for your pain - it is absolutely horrible and completely unacceptable that these things have happened to you. I like to take a proactive stance in just about everything...if something is wrong or could be better, how can I make it work? There's got to be some way... so I think and think and think until I figure out some options. My immediate thought is to get someone to be there with you to make you feel safe.

Can you get a friend or friends to come over and have a playdate during the time that the inspection will be done? Can you get a neighbor to come over? Who can you invite to come over and have tea & cookies? Surely there's got to be someone....


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

My dh has never, **not ever**, no matter what sort of stress he was under (and there has been **plenty** including death, sickness, job stress), has *ever* acted in a way which frightened me or my baby.

It's hard to stay quiet when it's clear he's abusing your baby emotionally and physically, and you as well.

Your fear of him is harming her as much as his anger and abuse is.

Honest to god. Your first post didn't worry me as much as your subsequent posts
What she said. We have been through death, divorce (we got divorced and re-married pre-baby), emergency quadruple bypass (his dad), job loss, near poverty, ...you name it. My husband has NEVER ONCE made me afraid of him ever. It is not because he is some perfect guy who never has an *off* day.

Quote:

It is not HIM, it is ME
Wow, that gave me chills... in a bad way. That has to be the universal cry of every woman who has ever been abused (before they sought treatment or left the man).

You husband is abusing your daughter. Emotionally and physically. That shower scene alone brought tears to my eyes. The fact that you don't feel "allowed" to mention his parenting techniques with your own daughter for fear of him "being meaner to her" says a whole lot.

We are not picking on you, honestly. Please protect your daughter and yourself. It doesn't have to be a Lifetime Original Movie of him throwing you into walls and leaving bruises on your daughter to be abuse. Abuse is what you described.

Please think of your daughter and yourself and at the very least get help and have a serious discussion with him about taking over responsibilities of *disciplining* your daughter until his "stress" passes.

I wish you could see this situation through all of our eyes. It would be so much easier and far less painful than having to see it through your daughter's eyes in 20 years.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

what I'm trying to get at is: I wish you would STOP judging my husband based on two isolated incidents. I know it's hard NOT to when that is all one is presented to on an online forum, but seriously, stop.

He needs help on how to deal with age appropriate behavior. *I* need help on how to NOT take even a sidelong look without crumbling got it?

This doesn't happen *ALL* the time. More often than not, he's acctually really great with her.

Remember, He came into her life NOT when she was an infant, but when she was already a toddler. When she was 18 months with little to no preparation/parenting classes.

He *IS* a kind and gentle man. I came here asking for help on how to guide him so to speak into a more gentle approach, but I get lambasted on how much of a wicked man he is and how he abuses me and my child....

I come here for help and I get basicly shit on.... no wonder i avoid this forum...

As I said it's hard to get a full picture out of TWO Snapshots of two REALLY crappy moments.

I've been in an abusive relationship. I *KNOW* the signs and guess what, he aint giving them. He doesn't control me he doesn't own me. Trust me if I had my lisence I would go out whenever and wherever I pleased without him raising an eyebrow. I have no friends here, NOT because he "wont let me" have friends it's because I just cant' STAND the women here on base...bunch of catty gossipy wenches that make my stomach churn...I take DD to the MFRC and they dont watch their kids and it's *MY* kid that winds up injured in some shape or form because stupid irresponsible parents cant be bothered to haul their heads out of their rectums to tell little jimmy that taking turns on the slide is a GOOD thing...hence why I stopped going.

He doesn't have these moments very often. trust me. But when he does, I just need advice on how to "constructively critisize" and make sure it doesn't happen again. Or better yet, make sure it *doesnt* happen in the first place.

I'm NOT the paragon of gd. Remember that. I yell, I threatan, I manipulate, I punish, I bribe, I reward. I AM working on it, with the advice I get from lurking. I'm NOT working towards Non Coerciveness because really that doesn't float my boat and for some reason it rubs me the wrong way for some reason. But I aint no baby beater either.

I aint a sinner nor a saint in the GD world of parenting. And neither is he. I'm *trying* to change for the better, He on the other hand isn't really and THAT is where I need help.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

My dh doesn't need me to tell him that pushing a screaming toddlers face under a running shower is wrong.

Tell him it's wrong.

And tell him you will bathe her, and you will put her toys away. Tell him cannot throw her stuff in the garbage. it's not kind, it's not respectful and there are better ways. Ask him to read a couple of articles on normal toddler behavior.

To me, it's simple. If you can't do that out of fear, there are no tricks to get him him to show you and your baby respect.

You are not getting shit on; we're telling you what we think. That's honesty-- out of concern for *you*. And the helpless baby.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Pandora,

I have read and reread this thread and discussed it with my GD friend and husband. I am disturbed about the events and yet, I don't feel the sense of 'abuse' that others are identifying. I can't quite put my finger on it. If I too am so scarred from emotional abuse to not see these actions as abusive, or if I just don't consider the behavior separate from dh's underlying needs.

Frankly, what you describe doesn't strike me as much different than standard operating procedure (SOP) mainstream parenting which consistently utilizes threats and fear and intimidation. So, intellectually I guess my "abuse" threashold is higher. Sure, the use of fear and intimidation is emotionally damaging, but how many kids really grow up without it in our culture? Does it damage automatically or is it the pattern of disregard and living in fear of consequences dependent upon some arbitrary anger of a parent that creates the atmosphere of true abuse? I don't consider the single act of disregard abusive. Not GD, for sure. But, isolated mild incidents are not abuse, in my opinion.

I believe there are some actions which defy anyone's threashold of abuse (beating with fists, broken skin, cigarette burns, etc.) and certainly your and my threasholds might be damaged due to pervasive personal experience. But taking away teddies doesn't even really register for me. Making a child wash the shampoo out of their hair against their will doesn't sound much different than forcing a child into a carseat, physically holding a child down to brush his teeth, making him go to bed hungry if he doesn't eat what is served at dinner, or physically dressing a child against his will, making them stay in bed according to an arbitrary clock, smacking a clothed bottom, taking a favorite toy away for some infraction, or shutting off a TV in the middle of a show because it is time to do xyz, forbidden to go to significant friend's homes, or required to sit and do homework while others are playing, the emotional threats of no gifts from Santa based upon misbehavior, threats of not going to friend's birthday parties or other special events...., etc.

Physically enforced compliance and use of punishments is standard fair in our culture and it is culturally sanctioned. So, are most all American children "abused"? I honestly don't know that this is the case unless there is a pervasive pattern of using fear and intimidation based upon the use of physical force to make a child comply against their dissent. Coercive, certainly.

What does concern me is your stated perception that dh would be 'meaner' if you were to intercede on behalf of your daughter. I hear your psychological trepidation at confrontation with any male; but regardless of my own personal history, I have an overriding instinct to protect our son, and I would risk life and limb (literally) IN THE MOMENT to intercede if I ever saw anyone treat him with such disrespect and disregard. I believe this is a survival instinct which has stayed with me. Seeing as this is handicapped in you, I don't consider your ability to protect your daughter objective. Given that you listened to your inner voice and sought validation here, I believe your survival instinct and maternal instinct are present, but impaired.

The question remains is this 'good enough' for you? Do you value yourself (your own inner voice) enough to take all risks to stop your daughter from being treated with disregard and forceful intimidation? Are you able to value your daughter's emotional health enough to take a stand against any retaliation? Even dh's? If not, I believe that she needs to be protected from your damaged sense of self, if for no other reason than to break the cycle of abuse from becoming a pattern in _her_ life. If you can't listen to your heart, how will she learn to do so?

I understand that dh is stressed to the max. He needs resources to support him in this trial on his stamina and emotional stability. If that means 'Red flag', it is now or later when even more is at stake than merely one child's emotional health. He is purposefully being tested (from what I understand) to determine if under the most severe circumstances that he can perform with honor and integrity, no-matter-what. If he can't now, what danger lies ahead when the stakes are higher? It is no discount of his Self to have suffered the same damage of abuse. That is not his fault, nor is it something that most adults can overcome without counselling. The next incident may be more damaging to more people who are affected by his anger issues. He needs help to cope.

And he needs to decompress. Find a way to give him the break that he needs. Ask your mother for the money to come visit. Have someone else do the inspection, your Self and your daughter are *your* primary responsibilities. His career is his. Your daughter needs to know in her heart that you will protect her no-matter-what, because she deserves it! Just as you do. You must continue to find a way to a healthier sense of self, such that when your inner voice speaks in the presence of your daughter terrorized for her safety, you WILL speak up against ANY man, even one you love.

It wasn't ok, you told us from your heart 'that was it'. You need to relearn to trust your heart. It is not that he is bad or good; but in that moment, you didn't protect your daughter, because you feared him being meaner to her.

Pat


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is a link to 'Alternatives to Losing It' from The Natural Child Project.
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt...ernatives.html

I have printed it out for myself to refer to. I intend to post it on my refrigerator as a reminder to everyone in our home.









Pat


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I am sorry that you think we are "shitting" on you. Scubamama is right, it doesn't sound much different than what happens in homes all over the US and beyond. That doesn't make it okay though (not to suggest that Pat said it was okay).

It is not so much what you described that troubles me, (though it does) but that you said more than once that you are fearful to say something because he will be "meaner" to your daughter to "spite" you. However you spin that, it is not healthy or normal behavior.

All we can go on is what you described. What you described to me sounded abusive. Perhaps it did because it is something that would never in a million years happen in our home. I don't say that to be self righteous or something. I say it because my husband knows that the type of behavior you described would not be an option for him if he wanted to stay a family. He is allowed to be angry, mad, stressed, or feel whatever emotion he is feeling... but when that bleeds over on to putting his hands on our daughter or scaring her, that is where his *right* to be stressed out ends. It ends at her right to feel safe and secure in her home.

I can see your desire to protect your husband and what you percieve to be as judgement and a skewed perception of him by us. I would have liked to have seen the same fierce protection towards your daughter in your posts too, but unfortunately, I have not. That is worth considering. Much of your energy in this thread seems to have been how to help your husband, how to protect him, how to make sure he is less stressed, how to bring things up without him geting angry -- I wish it was more about how to make sure your daughter was protected from his misdirected anger.

Quote:

Let's Just say his discipline choices arent some that I agree with, and I
can't correct him because it just means he'll get more and more
authoritarian towards her to spite me...

*snip*

Instead of asking her if she was tired and HELPING her use her words, he
said, "STAND UP NOW for shower or you dont get a rockabye and I take all
your teddies away" She kept ragdolling down and he kept reefing her
up by the arm, because obviously this hurt her feelings, AND she was
in some sort of physical pain last night too, and she was
TERRIFIED of him. You could tell. He *MAKES* her look up in the
shower, which she's terrified of, she isnt' ready for it.
But I can't correct him not even out of the sight/hearing of Brianna
because he'll just dig his heals in and be even meaner to her...

*snip*

He can't "hear" or "see" what
he's doing to her...

*snip*

He wonders why she wont snuggle in with him, he wonders why she isn't
all lovey dovey with him. He's MEAN to her....


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## Kira's mom (Nov 30, 2004)

I didn't read all the posts, but i did read yours.Giving your dh the benefit of the doubt... Maybe you can suggest that he take a break from disciplining and let you take care of that for a while until things settle for him.And as I say that i wonder what a shower has to do with discipline!! I was very upset by your post.Maybe my way is not right either but if my dh does something that i feel doesn't work (and it'd never be even close to your dh's behavior) i would correct it immediately.I feel very strongly about my own definition of GD and dh may not be quite as tuned in to it as i am...but he gets it . This is YOUR dd and you must protect her and make her safety (emotinally,physically,spiritually etc) your #1 priority.Please don't let him 'feel like a man' at the risk of your dd's safety.

I just had a chance to read the rest of the posts.I am so sorry that you feel attacked.Try to remember that these people are trying to help you because you ASKED for help.Tell your dh what you expect from him and don't settle for less than that.Everyone has had to deal with their own experiences in life and it's really hard.Our children are innocent beings and we must take care of them.


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