# Spanking is biblical....



## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

I posted on my friend's blog about a "license to have a baby." Basically, I ended up talking about how change needs to start by changing our values and the way we treat our children to make a point

I implied spanking is child abuse (I do believe this)... then a guy comes on there and tells me it's BIBLICAL and HEALTHY...







:

I'm not a Christian, but I'm pretty sure this isn't true. I thought Jesus preached love, not violence. Anyone care to comment here.

I'm so used to doing things my way and practicing GD that I don't even know how to respond to people who disagree with me anymore.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Those discussions are addressed on GD Board all the time







. Here is one of the recent ones: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=188542


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## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

Thanks for the link. How appropriate!


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Memo to the guy who is trying to subvert the Bible's messages to support his notion of a "natural progression of discipline":
Crucifixion is Biblical, too, but also generally frowned on these days.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

Crucifixion is Biblical, too, but also generally frowned on these days.










I'm so stealing that!!!!!







:


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

I've been working with the conservative Christian community for years trying to help moms move away from very damaging parenting ideas.

One thing I've learned is that spanking discussions rarely lead anywhere. The conservative Christian community has elevated spanking (and other punishment) to such a high level of importance that they interchange the word discipline and punishment.

A woman on a homeschooling board recently said to me that "she hasn't had to disicpline her now teen daughters since they were 5 and 6".







:

There are finally some authors in the Christian community who support gentle, firm discipline.

Here's a study from my site:

http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positiv...enter/id4.html

But you won't get anywhere as long as the person you are talking to thinks lack of spanking = lack of discipline.

If you do decide to discuss, the truth is that the Bible says to *beat* children. Obviously, that does not mean "spank" and the Bible does not have all the before after crap, never in anger,







stuff Christian authors add to the Bible. If you aren't beating your kids, you aren't following the Bible literally. If it doesn't mean *beat*, it must therefore be figurative.


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## Guest* (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004*
Memo to the guy who is trying to subvert the Bible's messages to support his notion of a "natural progression of discipline":
Crucifixion is Biblical, too, but also generally frowned on these days.


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

Spanking's not biblical. That's a load of crap. People use the Bible to support their bad habits (like spanking) all the time. Kind of like the people who misinterpret the Koran (sp?) and think it says that they have to kill Americans. Yes, Jesus was loving and gentle and I can't imagine somebody such as Him ever raising a hand in anger. It's really just common sense IMO. There's a lot in the Bible that states to treat each others with respect and love. And what about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Do all the "Christian" spankers forget about that verse? As Christians, we are supposed to strive to live and love as Christ did. Christ didn't hate and was not aggressive. He loved and treated others peacefully. He didn't beat children.


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## TzippityDoulah (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004*
Crucifixion is Biblical, too, but also generally frowned on these days.


that's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard!







:
.... HOWEVER I'm taking into consideration you were just kinda making light of the situation with a goofy off hand comment









BUT just _incase_ you actually believe that statement:
Crucifixion being Biblical is a prety inaccurate example. Crusifixion happened during "bible times" yes... but implying it was a biblical thing to do is not true. So to say christians shouldnt spank b/c they don't practice crusifixion is rather rediculous, honestly.

coming up with silly quotes and go to sayings in lieu of REAL facts is not a very good way to convince people of the truth.

having said that, I am a christian. and I think spanking is unbiblical (meaning I do not think God (or Jesus if you will) intended us to just hit on children to teach them)

there is a verse in the Bible stating "spare the rod, spoil the child"
I can not for sure say the exact meaning b/c I have not looked into the original greek etc. But, taking into consideration the rest of the Bible I assume it means not leading and disciplining your child makes them out of control and irresponsible as adults.
The Bible often talks about not only the importance of lovingly mothering a child (proverbs 31) but also the rebuking (meaning teaching) of correct behaviour. I have never seen an instance where one has struck a child in the Bible... atleats not in a "this is what you should do" kinda way. nor I have I read about a child being belittled or treated in any other inhumane way, for that matter.

honestly though, it does go without saying, when one believes a blanket statement or idea (even one with an obviously absurd interpretation like we should spank/beat children with rods) they are most likely rather ignorant themselves and will not take nicely to being proved wrong. I've found ignorant people cling tightly to whatever belief they've been told b/c it's safe. They will fight it to the death blindly.

it's much much much better to lead by example!







!

Laura


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

Honestly, I am getting so tired of the bible as an excuse to act cruelly, be it toward children, women, homosexuals, you name it. The bible is everywhere! In our politics, our child rearing and in a frighteningly high number of schools. I am really reaching the end of my rope with being told that certain laws should be upheld or abolished because the bible says so. Sorry, I don't mean to get off topic. My response whenever I hear the "bible" excuse for hitting children is "I'm not a Christian, so to me, the Bible is just another book."

PS. I do believe in God, it's religion I have problems with.


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

there is a verse in the Bible stating "spare the rod, spoil the child"
FYI, this quote is not in the Bible at all. It's mis-attributed to the Bible, but it's not in there. It's from a poem by Samuel Butler written to mock the Puritans.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *punkymoma*
BUT just _incase_ you actually believe that statement:
Crucifixion being Biblical is a prety inaccurate example. Crusifixion happened during "bible times" yes... but implying it was a biblical thing to do is not true. So to say christians shouldnt spank b/c they don't practice crusifixion is rather rediculous, honestly.

Have trouble detecting the ironic, do we?


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
FYI, this quote is not in the Bible at all. It's mis-attributed to the Bible, but it's not in there. It's from a poem by Samuel Butler written to mock the Puritans.

Isn't it based on Proverbs 13:24 though? "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him" (NIV) or for the King James fans: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

I guess for those literal interpretists this means you only hit sons and not daughters. For once the girls catch a break!!!


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Isn't it based on Proverbs 13:24 though? "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him" (NIV) or for the King James fans: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."
Yes, those are the verses that Samual Butler used to mock the Puritans in general and their child rearing specifically.

But the actual, literal phrase "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is usually directly "quoted" as a Bible verse. And it's not a Bible verse.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
But the actual, literal phrase "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is usually directly "quoted" as a Bible verse. And it's not a Bible verse.

Oh, I see. I'd missed that point in your earlier post. Thanks!


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
FYI, this quote is not in the Bible at all. It's mis-attributed to the Bible, but it's not in there. It's from a poem by Samuel Butler written to mock the Puritans.

In my MacArthur Study Bible, it reads in Proverbs 13:24..
"He who spares the rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly."

The interpretation of this on the bottom of this page states the following:
Early childhood teaching requires both parental discipline, including corporal punishment and balanced kindness and love....

It then goes on to say that one who has genuine affection for his child, but withholds corporal punishment, will produce the same kind of child as a parent who hates his offspring.

In my opinion, people twist/modernize the Bible to suit their needs. It is what it is. We shouldn't try to change it.


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

I guess I was posting at the same time as some others!


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

MacArthur is pretty punitive... I'm sure that influenced the footnotes in *his* Bible, rather than any scriptural basis for his comments.


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage*
MacArthur is pretty punitive... I'm sure that influenced the footnotes in *his* Bible, rather than any scriptural basis for his comments.

Regardless of what it says in the footnotes, the message is the same in all 3 of my Bible's.

From the Helps Dictionary Concordance, Revised Standard Version:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

Then from The Good News Bible Today's English Version:
"If you don't punish your son, you don't love him. If you do love him, you will correct him."


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

Regardless of what it says in the footnotes, the message is the same in all 3 of my Bible's.

From the Helps Dictionary Concordance, Revised Standard Version:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

Then from The Good News Bible Today's English Version:
"If you don't punish your son, you don't love him. If you do love him, you will correct him."
Right, but none of the translations actually say anything resembling the whole "spanking" protocol that's been added *to* the Bible by conservative Christians.


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyHSer*
Right, but none of the translations actually say anything resembling the whole "spanking" protocol that's been added *to* the Bible by conservative Christians.

I don't mean to start an argument here, I really am just plain ignorant by what you mean by that


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

I'm just totally confused... oneotamama I thought you were saying that the spanking message *is* a modern misinterpretation that has been added... so you think it was the original meaning of the verses? When I have looked at the original language myself and read studies by others I have seen nothing to support that... I think it is referring to a literal rod used figuratively to represent authority/teaching. The modern mistake is to interpret it as "spanking" and I find that to be a *huge* stretch, I don't think evidence supports that.

(my assumption is probably b/c I think most here reject spanking)


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I don't mean to start an argument here, I really am just plain ignorant by what you mean by that
No arguement.







It's all good.

In recent years, conservative Christians have written books that are little more than "how to spank your child biblically". Books! Articles! Seminars. They've taken out of context a few verses, insisted they mean spanking and also added a bunch of protocol around how to spank (never in anger, in private, pray before and after.....)

Relatedly, a movement towards "First Time Obedience" has emerged as well. Basically, spank your child until they learn to listen to you the first time, immeidately.









The quote you posted of mine refers to the Christian community and how they've added to the Bible.


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

I guess I probably feel that yes, that IS what the Bible means...to spank. That could be totally my misconception. To be quite frank, I have spanked. I don't want to continue to do so. Right now I'm really confused about the Bible. So, for fear of getting into a huge fight here, I'll probably not post on this thread anymore.







What I'm looking for is some magical way to get my dc to behave more appropriately w/out discipline. Anyone got some magical dust to send my way?!









Aha! The seminars you're referring to...might I say the Pearl family?!


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## HappyHSer (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:

I guess I probably feel that yes, that IS what the Bible means...to spank. That could be totally my misconception. To be quite frank, I have spanked. I don't want to continue to do so. Right now I'm really confused about the Bible. So, for fear of getting into a huge fight here, I'll probably not post on this thread anymore. What I'm looking for is some magical way to get my dc to behave more appropriately w/out discipline. Anyone got some magical dust to send my way?!
Yes, there is magic. Time and consistency. But the Bible doesn't say *spank*. It says to beat your nearly adult male child with a rod.

If you believe (as I do) in the parent as authority in the home, there are lots of ways to discipline without physical or other punishment.

Quote:

Aha! The seminars you're referring to...might I say the Pearl family?!
Well, yes. But spanking has been revered by much less extreme people, too. Dobson, Tripp, etc.


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## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

I heard that the shephard holds a rod but doesn't beat the sheep with it, so the scripture about the rod means we must disipline. It doesn't mean we must spank. I don't know if that interpretation is valid but I am a Christian who does not spank.


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## chersolly (Aug 29, 2004)

If spanking is biblical, DD is going to be very happy that we're atheists.


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## JillChristina (May 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I heard that the shephard holds a rod but doesn't beat the sheep with it, so the scripture about the rod means we must disipline. It doesn't mean we must spank. I don't know if that interpretation is valid but I am a Christian who does not spank.









:

A shephard LEADS his sheep with his rod. His sheep love him! If he beat his sheep with his rod, no doubt they'd run away (if sheep are that smart).

Jill


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I'm a Christian and I certainly dont like when people take and twist the scripture.....which people have been doing for centuries, i guess.
I DONT think spanking is biblical. I dont think God tells me I should spank my children. I dont take passages out of context like some people who say "it's in the bible....the bible says we have to spank" grrrrrr....it makes me angry.
I also take offense at the "Growing kids God's way" as I think that's a load of c***!
The whole shepherd/staff/rod thing is a way a shepherd gently leads his sheep.....like pp's have said...
I guess what it boils down to for me is JUDGEMENT.....we as humans have a tendency to judge others and use the bible as a way of "validating" ourselves and I believe that to be wrong and I believe Jesus would have not liked it either.....
Many things that people who call themselves Christians do in the name of God or the bible are not right and based on narrowmindedness (sp?) or ignorance.....THE BIBLE DOES NOT TELL US TO SPANK OUR CHILDREN DANG IT!!!!!!








(ok, stepping off my soapbox now


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Ok, I can't resist and I'm old enough to know this--
as Patti Smith chanted in a song,

"Spare the child and spoil the rod."


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## TzippityDoulah (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004*
Have trouble detecting the ironic, do we?

*
Griffin2004-*

I'm not sure what that was implying... but perhaps I have you the impression that I didnt agree with you. I re-read my comment to try and figure out what exactly I said to piss you off. I did have 2 kids running around while i was typing so i didnt have my full attention to detail.

granted i disagreed completely with the statement about crucifixion, but I didn't mean to sound like I was being a jerk! only to prove my point (which i thought was the object of the person's thread) it was not a personal attack nor did i want it to come off that way.I guess it is rather hard to debate without stepping on toes though.









however at the end when I was talking about "ignorant people" I was referring NOT to you, I hope you know. I was referring to people who blindly believe hearsay they've been taught (ei: God wants us to spank our children) etc.

but attacking those people with a load of sayings like that about the crucifixion (or any others really) seem to do nothing but fuel them. However, if they see your happy family functioning well and good with out spanking they are more likely to think to themselve that perhaps there is another way. (you know more flies with honey...) when they do ask if you gently give them facts it's better recieved. peple put up a lot of walls you know what I mean?

how do I know this? b/c I WAS one of them!!!!









(well of course you have to use your concious too... if someone's beating the hell out of their kid you can't just stand there not beating yours as an example!)

good thread, btw!

Laura


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## Avena (May 27, 2005)

I posted this on "the Bible told me to do it" thread
o let me say this....

as you sow, so shall you reap - think about that for a moment.

causing pain in the world of your child, who is Gods child, HURTS that little person who is just now learning the world.

so, you find justification in the bible....well, who interpretes the words of the bible for you - men throughout history that you never knew and don't know today, or your own heart and mind turned Godward? what does your heart say to you? do you feel good deep down inside your own self when you cause pain in your child? is that really the only way to instruct?

hitting, spanking, slapping, whatever you choose to call it, teaches them a couple of things for sure - that you, in your consciousness, and in your relationship with God, can't figure out a higher more pleasant way to instruct your child, and that hitting is how you deal with difficult communication issues. Jesus didn't spank even when the nice preachers and politicians hammered spikes through his hands and feet to hang him on a cross. no, i don't imagine that you are anywhere near such evil as those against Christ were - or are. I am saying that God is an endless ocean of compassion and if you get a drop and cultivate it big enough you'll find the power hidden in the language of love and understanding that will guide your communications / interactions / relationship with your child away from having to shock him / her with pain.

Children provide us a gift from God, which in most cases today is quickly sqaundered away by us in our unconscious haze- and that is the opprtunity to sow the seeds of love and understanding into the upcoming human race - the chance to give life to the language of love, and to speak the language of love in all your world - do that all the way through your life on earth, what will your child know and remember?

sow love, sow understanding, reap love, reap understanding

oh yeah, there is'nt anything gentle about spanking - gentle is gentle.... gentle discipline is taking the time to reach up to your higher self and find the way to reason with your child, no matter what age, without causing pain.


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## cravenab00 (May 25, 2005)

http://www.unhinderedliving.com/discipline.html

this goes in to great detail about how the Bible does NOT teach spanking. Very informative.


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

There was a study done that showed boys respond better to spanking than girls. Ofcource that means you must find a diferent way to disciplene for the girl so you might as well yous that on both of them if it works so well.


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## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Children were spanked for research?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oneotamama*
I guess I probably feel that yes, that IS what the Bible means...to spank. That could be totally my misconception. To be quite frank, I have spanked. I don't want to continue to do so. Right now I'm really confused about the Bible. So, for fear of getting into a huge fight here, I'll probably not post on this thread anymore.







What I'm looking for is some magical way to get my dc to behave more appropriately w/out discipline. Anyone got some magical dust to send my way?!









Teaching your children to behave more appropriately IS discipline. Discipline comes from the word "disciple" and it literally means "to teach." I think what you're looking for is "discipline without corporal punishment" or possibly even "discipline without punishment."


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chersolly* 
If spanking is biblical, DD is going to be very happy that we're atheists.









:

Don't the pearls say that husbands should spank their wives too?


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