# Why are people so cruel to their children??



## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I just witnessed two examples of cruelty to children that just made me question why people are the way they are.

The first was in a large doctor's office. There was an area for children to play in. A mother had her approx. 2 year old son in it. She kept telling him to sit down and watch the tv. He was trying to play with a bead maze but she didn't want him to and so kept tying him to a chair with a blanket. He would cry quietly until she let him free - usually after 5 minutes or so - and then he would sit quietly for a minute and get up to play with the bead maze (within 2 feet of the chair). She would yell at him to sit down and watch tv again, and he wouldn't so the cycle was repeated. This happened the entire time I was waiting, for about 45 minutes. I understand being tired and frustrated as a mother, especially in a doctor's office, but I can't imagine tying my child to a chair. The nurses and receptionist were watching this whole thing and never said a thing. I could only wonder if maybe he was special needs and this was a way to calm him? Could that be valid? Otherwise is this a form of abuse that could be reported? I have no idea what I could have done in the situation to help.....

Then I picked up my children and went to a playdate at someone's house. I had never been there, and was trying to possibly start a friendship with the mother. She seemed somewhat gd in that she doesn't spank and we've had a few conversations at a local playpark where she seemed to think along the same lines as I do. Her children are also the same ages as mine so I thought it might work. We got there and our children were playing happily together. Her youngest dd is around 2 and tried to take a toy away from my son. The mother went and got a spray bottle filled with water and squirted her 4 or 5 times in the face with it. WTH? She said she was trying to "train" her to behave. I made excuses within a minute or two and we left. We obviously will never go back there.

I just don't understand how people can act that way towards their children. It makes my heart break.....


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## ttcintexas (Nov 7, 2005)

All I can say is, "Wow." I cannot imagine even witnessing those actions. I would have gotten out of that house as quickly as I could as well. I am always trying to be more GD, especially need to work on how I have been using threats and yelling/raising voice. I cannot imagine ever being that mean to a child.


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I am so upset about both situations. I feel like I should have confronted both mothers, but I have no idea how to do something like that. Those poor kids deserve someone to stick up for them but how do you do that in a society that sanctions, even approves of, child abuse in the form of spanking?

I didn't know what to do in the doctor's office as I was in too much pain to really get down to the child's level to play with him, and who knows if that would have set the mother off even more.

As for the playdate mom, I expressed my disbelief to her (which was when she explained her "training") but she saw nothing wrong with squirting a baby (I think two year olds are still babies) full on in the face. How do you get through to those people? I was so horrified I just focused on leaving, not on educating her...


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I have heard that the spray bottle is a fantastic teaching tool when you are trying to train your cat not to climb the curtains. I can't quite understand the leap from cats to pre-schoolers.

As for the doctor.. that's just weird. Maybe Mom is a germaphobe and didn't want him touching anything in the dr office that might have been touched by a sick child. But, that's all I can think of.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Maybe the first child was sick and she didn't want to spread germs. Maybe he's immune-compromised.

The second mom is just. . . well I have nothing nice to say about that.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't let my DD play with toys at the doctor's office. But - I then bring my own that she _can_ play with.

I've seen alot of bad parenting on both sides. I've seen people who believe so much in 'modeling' good behavior rather than teaching it that no one wants to play with their kids because it's so awful.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Well, the first mother, to me, was probably stressed out and didn't want her child to play with the toys in a dr's office. I hated to go to my pediatrician because there wasn't a well-child room and I didn't know who came in with what before us that day. If I was already stressed, then I could see myself practically tying my child to his chair.

The 2nd mother was out of line and I think you should avoid her. The child isn't a cat for crying out loud.

Reading your post, I wonder if you've recently had a miscarraige. I had a stillbirth and I would get furious at anyone that I didn't think was worshipping their child.

Lisa


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I never even thought of the child being immune compromised but that could have been it.... maybe. Still don't understand tying a child to a chair though. This was not a pediatrician's office, it was a Women's Health Center.

Maybe it is just the constant barrage of callousness to the needs of children that finally got to me. And, yes, lisa49, I did have a baby born too early in August, however, I do have three living children that I got over "worshipping" pretty quickly. LOL.

And I am definitely not the poster child for GD. I am constantly trying to improve though....

Am I overreacting?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Oh man







- pretty bad.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I don't know about the dr.'s office. I can't imagine having to wait 45 minutes tho. Perhaps she was afraid of the child getting sick. It is still a drastic (and sad) "solution". The squirting a child in the face is just


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My mom used to do the water thing with me :/ She said "that's how you train wild dogs" or something. I'm not scarred or anything but I don't have much of a relationship with my mother either.

The first mom should have just walked the kid around or something. She tied him to the chair? Another dog technique I guess.

*sigh*


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
I just witnessed two examples of cruelty to children that just made me question why people are the way they are.

The first was in a large doctor's office. There was an area for children to play in. A mother had her approx. 2 year old son in it. She kept telling him to sit down and watch the tv. He was trying to play with a bead maze but she didn't want him to and so kept tying him to a chair with a blanket. He would cry quietly until she let him free - usually after 5 minutes or so - and then he would sit quietly for a minute and get up to play with the bead maze (within 2 feet of the chair). She would yell at him to sit down and watch tv again, and he wouldn't so the cycle was repeated. This happened the entire time I was waiting, for about 45 minutes. I understand being tired and frustrated as a mother, especially in a doctor's office, but I can't imagine tying my child to a chair. The nurses and receptionist were watching this whole thing and never said a thing. I could only wonder if maybe he was special needs and this was a way to calm him? Could that be valid? Otherwise is this a form of abuse that could be reported? I have no idea what I could have done in the situation to help.....

Then I picked up my children and went to a playdate at someone's house. I had never been there, and was trying to possibly start a friendship with the mother. She seemed somewhat gd in that she doesn't spank and we've had a few conversations at a local playpark where she seemed to think along the same lines as I do. Her children are also the same ages as mine so I thought it might work. We got there and our children were playing happily together. Her youngest dd is around 2 and tried to take a toy away from my son. The mother went and got a spray bottle filled with water and squirted her 4 or 5 times in the face with it. WTH? She said she was trying to "train" her to behave. I made excuses within a minute or two and we left. We obviously will never go back there.

I just don't understand how people can act that way towards their children. It makes my heart break.....

When we went to a peds office that had a waiting area like that I tried to get my kids to sit and avoid the toys and I tried to keep them from playing with other kids. The whole germ thing just freaked me out too much.

OMG I just had to edit because I didn't read that she TIED the kid to the chair! How did i miss that? Egads. I think I would have told the doctor or a nurse. That's just plain wrong.

With the water squirting mom, I don't think I could have hid my reaction well. That's just nuts. I know some people do that to their cats, but I don't think that is very gentle either.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

The squirting is pretty bad. I've joked with DH before about doing it to our 5 yr old DD who chews on everything. But we've never even done it to our cat. It's just mean.

As for the doctor's office, whether it's a well woman clinic or a peds office, I don't want my kids touching the toys at the doctor's office. DD2 was sick a lot her first 2 yrs of life. We had a cycle of colds, ear infections, stomach bugs. It never ended. I used to be totally relaxed about public places, but these days I'm obsessed with them keeping their hands pathogen-free! We bring books and things to the doctor's office whenever we have to go. I also bring antibacterial wipes for toys they insist on playing with or for their hands after playing with said toys. Yeah, I'm a nut.


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

Even if mom was worried about germs, is tying your child to a chair at any time ever okay?


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
Even if mom was worried about germs, is tying your child to a chair at any time ever okay?

Oh hell no. I missed that sentance when I first read your post.


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## wombjuice (Feb 22, 2007)

We squirt our cats sometimes when they rip at the door to get outside, but we absolutely NEVER squirt their faces, and we never let them see us squirt them, lol.

And OMG...the thought of squirting a child?? And in the face?? WTF could that ever teach anyone? I have never heard of ANYONE squirting children with water bottles...and this is in the land of Spank as Thou Wilt! That's just insane!!









Now I'm questioning whether or not I should even be squirting my cats. They are REALLY bad cats, lol, but the squirting doesn't even really work. They still tear at the door, they just run away when they feel water. And then they come right back again.









I can't even think about the woman who tied her kid to the chair. What is WRONG with some people?!


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## WeasleyMum (Feb 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *feminine_earth* 
We squirt our cats sometimes when they rip at the door to get outside, but we absolutely NEVER squirt their faces, and we never let them see us squirt them, lol.

And OMG...the thought of squirting a child?? And in the face?? WTF could that ever teach anyone? I have never heard of ANYONE squirting children with water bottles...and this is in the land of Spank as Thou Wilt! That's just insane!!









Now I'm questioning whether or not I should even be squirting my cats. They are REALLY bad cats, lol, but the squirting doesn't even really work. They still tear at the door, they just run away when they feel water. And then they come right back again.









I can't even think about the woman who tied her kid to the chair. What is WRONG with some people?!

I TRIED that with my cat when she was a kitten to keep her off the kitchen counters... it didn't work because she LIKED the water spray and would try to play with it. She's one of those weird cats that likes water. As for using it on kids? There are no words.

(P.S. Putting double-sided masking tape on the counters worked b/c she didn't like her paws touching the sticky.)


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## elizabeth rose (May 19, 2004)

well i dont think you're overreacting. Its hard to speak up, I know, for one thing you were probably in shock. modeling appropriate parenting is always good. In the 2nd case, I agree, leaving was excellent. If the mom contacts you, maybe explaing to her that you don't want your child to see another child being disciplined in that manner, so you won't be hanging out again. She may not even realize some peolpe would think its abusive or just plain disrespectful.

I agree, very sad


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Okay, I took the "tied" to the chair comment as a figure of speech. Am I wrong? I could think of several reasons for the first mother's behavior.

As for the second mother, I think someone needs to explain the difference between a cat and a child to her.


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
Okay, I took the "tied" to the chair comment as a figure of speech. Am I wrong? I could think of several reasons for the first mother's behavior.

No, the child was TIED to the chair each time with his blankie. Physically restrained. Not sure how else to say it.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

That's horrible.







I don't think I would have been able to keep my mouth shut if I saw that.









I'm sorry you had to witness something so upsetting.


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## BiscuitBaby (Nov 21, 2007)

Tying a kid to a chair w/a blanket would never have occured to me in a million years. I wonder what she does to him at home.









The squirt bottle thing made me think of cats! We used to squirt our cat for scratching the couch. It didn't work. But I never squirted him in the face! So when she is out in public, does she take her squirt bottle with her?









That would have been hard to deal with on both accounts.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
No, the child was TIED to the chair each time with his blankie. Physically restrained. Not sure how else to say it.

Was it like when people leash their kids when they're out shopping? I used to think that was cruel until I had kids who darted off. Now I think it's more practical, although we haven't resorted to needing to do it. Without seeing the exact incident and knowing all the details of the woman's life I just can't say for sure that I think it's cruel. Some of y'all are going to think that must mean I condone tying kids to chairs under any circumstances. But that's not true. I'm just wondering the details of the situation. For instance, was the kid screaming and trying to get out of the blanket? Was the mother leaving him to sit alone? etc. In those cases I'd say she probably needed to try something else. And, unless you have or know a kid with an immune deficiency it's possible that tying them to a chair is preferable to having them get extremely ill. A fever in an immune deficient kid is a lot more serious than in a healthy kid. And we don't know that this kid had an immune deficiency which is why I said that without knowing the details I can't judge whether the mother was being cruel.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
Was it like when people leash their kids when they're out shopping? I used to think that was cruel until I had kids who darted off. Now I think it's more practical, although we haven't resorted to needing to do it. Without seeing the exact incident and knowing all the details of the woman's life I just can't say for sure that I think it's cruel. Some of y'all are going to think that must mean I condone tying kids to chairs under any circumstances. But that's not true. I'm just wondering the details of the situation. For instance, was the kid screaming and trying to get out of the blanket? Was the mother leaving him to sit alone? etc. In those cases I'd say she probably needed to try something else. And, unless you have or know a kid with an immune deficiency it's possible that tying them to a chair is preferable to having them get extremely ill. A fever in an immune deficient kid is a lot more serious than in a healthy kid. And we don't know that this kid had an immune deficiency which is why I said that without knowing the details I can't judge whether the mother was being cruel.

I think if this were the case, she would have had a leash. The immune deficient thing is more probable, but if she was that worried she could have asked to be put in a room.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DBZ* 
I think if this were the case, she would have had a leash. The immune deficient thing is more probable, but if she was that worried she could have asked to be put in a room.

Yeah. I was thinking about it after I posted that. Why tie a kid when you could hold them in your lap or walk them around or something? It is really weird. Still, who knows what the situation was? I just don't like threads that are quick to judge when we don't have all the details, and I usually don't post on them. The squirting water thing got me, though! That's just nuts.


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

If it's a Women's Health center what if the mom was sick? I can think of a lot of really plausible scenarios where a caring, desperate mother is reduced to that kind of behavior. Maybe they're both sick. Maybe they just saw a kid with something awful chewing on the bead thing. I'd chalk that up to not knowing what was going on and moving on.

The water thing, though, that's awful. Talk about dehumanizing, yuck.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

Yeah, maybe she's a germophobe and doesn't want him touching stuff in a nasty doc's office. Tying him to the chair is pretty bad. I don't know what the docs or nurses should've said though. The 2nd example is way worse IMO


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I guess it was the way the mother (in the doctor's office) was acting towards the child in addition to the actual physical restraint. She was texting on the phone, then yelling at him and tying him to the chair, then back to the phone, etc. I try really really hard not to judge parents unless I know all of the facts, but it really looked like it was just inconvenient for her to interact with him. Each time he moved from the chair, she would threaten him (i.e, "Do you want to be tied up again? Sit back down or else!") and he would sit down and then get back up, move away and she would grab him by the arm (yes, I have grabbed my kids a few times, not proud of it, but I have), drag him crying back to the chair and tie him down again. In addition to expecting a child that age to sit for that long, which seems unreasonable IMO, she really had no other interaction with him.

Plenty of times, I have not been proud of how I've handled situations with my kids in public. And, if he was immune comprised somehow or she was sick, I can understand it is really hard to deal with a 2 yo in public (I have a 12 yo, a 3.75 yo, and a 22 mo), but still, TYING a child to a chair? How can that ever be okay?


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

I am constantly amazed by people who do not prepare for waiting rooms and then get angry when their young child won't sit still and behave for long periods of time.

It's so sad, when my kid pulls out his books, small toys, writing pad and crayons and the poor bored kid next to us has to sit there bored. We always share with those kids, but I have to think: IF you don't want your child touching toys in a doc's office (I know I don't) esp if said child has an immunity issue....isn't it just common sense to prepare ways to distract the kid?

Tying him to a chair is a desperate and selfish act.

Squirting a kid in the face is just messed up. I have nothing else to say to that.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I think you should take the advice of your siggie line and consider saying something if you see this kind of thing again. Not going off on the other moms but you can state your reaction -- oh my gosh, I could never spray a child in the face, it's so cruel and I'm sure it only confuses her. This is how I handle hitting..... I really think the spray bottle is a mean thing to do to a little child, how would you like to be sprayed in the face like that?

Seriously. It would take a lot of courage to say it, but it's the truth.

I'm sorry you had to witness both children being mistreated.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

O.K.. Just because I feel like confessing..

In the early 80s I worked in a daycare center, and we tied all the babies to chairs at lunch time. The ratios were absurd back then (12-1) in the toddler room, (17-1) in the twos.

So, since there were two of us, and at least 25 toddlers that needed to eat lunch, it was easier to tie them to the chair. It also kept them from falling out of their chairs. It was kinda cute too.

I still tie the infant to her outdoor swing, but that is for safety reasons.

So, I can't actually judge on the mom who tied her son to a chair. Since I have done the same thing.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 
I am constantly amazed by people who do not prepare for waiting rooms and then get angry when their young child won't sit still and behave for long periods of time.

It's so sad, when my kid pulls out his books, small toys, writing pad and crayons and the poor bored kid next to us has to sit there bored. We always share with those kids, but I have to think: IF you don't want your child touching toys in a doc's office (I know I don't) esp if said child has an immunity issue....isn't it just common sense to prepare ways to distract the kid?

Tying him to a chair is a desperate and selfish act.


I would have said the same thing before my 2nd daughter was born. We went to the doctor a lot because she had a billion ear infections. Sometimes they "squeezed us in," and we had to wait a long time, and they called me to tell me the time frame to come in while I was out at a friend's or getting groceries, so I didn't come prepared with stuff for them to do. When DD2 had a reaction to the MMR vax we ended up being sent to the hospital for bloodwork. DD1 was bored and all over the place. I didn't anticipate being sent to the hospital, and being out as long as we were, she was hungry and bored. Usually I left her with my mom whenever I had to take DD2 in for something, but for whatever reason my mom couldn't keep her that day. It was horrible. I didn't have to tie anyone down anywhere or squirt them in the face, but I'm sure glad to know had you been there you would have felt sorry for my "sad" DD with her "unprepared" mommy who lacks basic "common sense."

Like I said, not everything is so black and white. You don't know all the details, so you're not really in a place to judge.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *feminine_earth* 
We squirt our cats sometimes when they rip at the door to get outside, but we absolutely NEVER squirt their faces, and we never let them see us squirt them, lol.

And OMG...the thought of squirting a child?? And in the face?? WTF could that ever teach anyone? I have never heard of ANYONE squirting children with water bottles...and this is in the land of Spank as Thou Wilt! That's just insane!!









Now I'm questioning whether or not I should even be squirting my cats. They are REALLY bad cats, lol, but the squirting doesn't even really work. They still tear at the door, they just run away when they feel water. And then they come right back again.









I can't even think about the woman who tied her kid to the chair. What is WRONG with some people?!

O/T but you can also make a hissing sound (like a cat would when angry) and then go over and 'reclaim' your property. It's what a cat does in a pack (pride? What's the right term for alot of cats together?) So basically hiss and then rush to where they are and stand infront of the door. You're making yourself the boss and claiming it as yours.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:

O/T but you can also make a hissing sound (like a cat would when angry) and then go over and 'reclaim' your property. It's what a cat does in a pack (pride? What's the right term for alot of cats together?) So basically hiss and then rush to where they are and stand infront of the door. You're making yourself the boss and claiming it as yours.
Maybe instead of squirting water the mom could "hiss" Much gentler than water in the face


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

I've tied my child to her high chair at the table when she wouldn't stop standing up in it. That is no different than a seatbelt. It's a safety issue.

I just don't understand the people who are saying that tying a child to a chair in any situation would be automatically abusive. Do you put seatbelts on your kids in the car? Do you fasten the 5-point harness in a baby's car seat? Do you use the seatbelt in the shopping cart? Do you put the tray and/or seatbelt on in a high chair?

If you do any of those things, you're essentially tying your child to their seat. If not (especially with the car seat/seatbelt issue), you're endangering their lives.

I hardly think that the restraint is in itself abusive. It depends completely on the reason, duration, and context of the restraint.

I think expecting a small child to sit quietly in a chair for that long is unreasonable, but as others have said, there could be extenuating circumstances.

Squirting a child in the face with a water bottle I would be shocked at. Couldn't that damage the child's eyes or get inhaled, in addition to being cruel and uncomfortable?


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

What a weird conversation. I would think if someone were to be screaming at their child in a doctors office and tying him to the chair, that someone would do something. I'm sure these people are all taught the child abuse signals or something of the sort and would call whoever it is you'd call in a situation like that.

I hear all sorts of posts like this...."OMG the horrifying thing I just whitnessed. I wonder if sometimes you see more than is going on because of all the "awful parents in the world."

Maybe it really was that bad. I wonder about the squirt bottle one too, I've yet to hear something like that


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## SevenVeils (Aug 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 

I just don't understand the people who are saying that tying a child to a chair in any situation would be automatically abusive. Do you put seatbelts on your kids in the car? Do you fasten the 5-point harness in a baby's car seat? Do you use the seatbelt in the shopping cart? Do you put the tray and/or seatbelt on in a high chair?


But it IS automatically abusive. Yes to all of the above, but I would never, NEVER EVER tie my baby into a high chair because he was standing up. In any of the above with the exception of the carseat, as soon as the baby starts trying to get out, or indicating that he wants to get out, I take him out. Period. No exceptions. And when my baby who hatehatehates his carseat was younger and less able to tolerate it, there were plenty of times that a 15 minute drive took over two hours (seriously, it would have been far quicker to walk) because I had to keep stopping, taking him out and soothing him/playing with him before driving another few yards. I respect him and will not leave him restrained and miserable. I can absolutely not imagine tying a child down under any circumstance other than dire medical need.

Spraying someone in the face with water is assault.

Even more alarming to me than the actual tying of the baby to the chair (horrific in itself), is the fact that the baby cried quietly for a while. That sounds like he is really accustomed to being tied down. I can't believe that none of the staff said anything- "sorry, you can't tie a baby down in here" at least? I don't know what I would have done, I'd be a little scared of that mom myself but OP, I do not think that you are overreacting at all.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skyastara* 
But it IS automatically abusive. Yes to all of the above, but I would never, NEVER EVER tie my baby into a high chair because he was standing up. In any of the above with the exception of the carseat, as soon as the baby starts trying to get out, or indicating that he wants to get out, I take him out. Period. No exceptions. And when my baby who hatehatehates his carseat was younger and less able to tolerate it, there were plenty of times that a 15 minute drive took over two hours (seriously, it would have been far quicker to walk) because I had to keep stopping, taking him out and soothing him/playing with him before driving another few yards. I respect him and will not leave him restrained and miserable. I can absolutely not imagine tying a child down under any circumstance other than dire medical need.


Wow... that's intense. I understand not wanting to hear your child cry, but I've always thought that this kind of behavior would be very confusing to my DD and that her total crying time would probably be less in the long run if I just drove the fifteen minutes and then got her out-- (rather than soothing with, "Okay, here's Mother! Now back into the seat! Oh, here I am again!") not to mention the safety issues of stopping every few yards. I *certainly* don't think that driving the fifteen minutes would constitute abuse!
When my dd was smaller I always "tied" her into her high chair with a sling because it seemed more comfortable than using the straps; i still do sometimes when we use a high chair without a belt. I take her out of the high chair when she reaches for me after (or even during) a meal.... but she still stays tied in until then-- a 9 mo old does not understand the ramifications of falling 3 feet!

I wouldn't tie DD to a chair in the doctors' office, no-- but I don't think that this clearly indicates that abuse of other sorts is going on.


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## imatulip (Nov 18, 2007)

I think a lot of ppl just don't know any better.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Wow... that's intense. I understand not wanting to hear your child cry, but I've always thought that this kind of behavior would be very confusing to my DD and that her total crying time would probably be less in the long run if I just drove the fifteen minutes and then got her out-- (rather than soothing with, "Okay, here's Mother! Now back into the seat! Oh, here I am again!") not to mention the safety issues of stopping every few yards. I *certainly* don't think that driving the fifteen minutes would constitute abuse!
When my dd was smaller I always "tied" her into her high chair with a sling because it seemed more comfortable than using the straps; i still do sometimes when we use a high chair without a belt. I take her out of the high chair when she reaches for me after (or even during) a meal.... but she still stays tied in until then-- a 9 mo old does not understand the ramifications of falling 3 feet!

I wouldn't tie DD to a chair in the doctors' office, no-- but I don't think that this clearly indicates that abuse of other sorts is going on.









I agree. I do think that driving a block, and stopping is far more risky than letting my child cry. Especially if I am the only one in the car.

My daughter hated the carseat too. I got her a different carseat and I tied ribbons all over the back of the seat. I had a small truck at the time, so she was in the front seat with me. (this was before airbags) So, I could rub her tummy and let her know I was there.

I had a freind's son have a sudden and HUGE meltdown in his car seat one day. We were both paniked, because there must have been something awful happening. I had a mile before the next exit, and a quarter mile before I could pull off safely to check him out. We got him out of his seat and stripped him down, and he had a bee in his pant leg that had stung him. My friend was mad that I wouldn't pull over on the freeway, or let her take him out of his seat on the freeway. She still to this day thinks that that was abusive. But, I stand behind that rule. No unbuckling of kids, and no stopping on the freeway when an exit there is an exit every mile. (she won't drive with me anymore. LMBO)


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I just have to weigh in one last time. It hurts me when I see children treated callously. Treated like they are not little beings with feelings and needs. Treated as property to be used as a parent sees fit. I thought this would be a safe place to express my outrage over this fact, and these two situations coming so closely together really impacted me.

I'm not saying I am a perfect parent. I have resorted to parenting techniques at times that I am not proud of. And, yes, I strap my child into his highchair to eat and the two little ones in carseats when we travel by car. However, never have I heard of tying a child to a chair as a *punishment* other than in extremely abusive situations or possibly in a special needs type situation. I can understand needing to restrain children at times for their own good, to keep them from getting hurt, etc. But the way this was done was really truly disturbing.

I'm not sure what the nurses at the doctors office did. Maybe they did report that family. But in so many horrific situations with children being abused, you hear that there were plenty of warning signs, and no one took them seriously. I would hate to see this child's picture on a tv screen as another statistic and know that I was one of those people who did nothing.

If you read my posts, I really was trying to find a way that this could have been an okay thing to do so that I wasn't judging this mother. In our society, IMO we get desensitized to people treating their children badly. IMO, this helps the cycle of abuse continue. Again, I am not a perfect parent and I am not a parent who judges others lightly. I just thought that this would be a place where others could possibly understand why tying a child to a chair is so repugnant to me.

As for the mother who squirted her child in the face, I have decided I am going to call her and ask her to go to coffee without our children. I'm going to bring along some literature and tell her how I felt about witnessing what I did, in a non-accusatory way, and go from there. I can only hope that she responds in a positive manner. I don't really want to spend time with her, but feel it is the least I can do. Maybe she just needs some education?


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
I'm sure glad to know had you been there you would have felt sorry for my "sad" DD with her "unprepared" mommy who lacks basic "common sense."

Like I said, not everything is so black and white. You don't know all the details, so you're not really in a place to judge.


You're absolutely right, I'm not in a place to judge anyone else.

Who is?

Any kid will get bored with having to be somewhere for an exceptionally long amount of time with nothing to do. However I did clarify I feel sorry for the kids who are expected to "sit still and behave" - like the child in the waiting room. If your DD was running around and entertaining herself, why would I have reason to feel sorry for her? Sounds like she made the best of her situation and you allowed that, which is awesome.

I don't think everyone can be prepared all the time. But when you call a doc's office to make an appointment, you know where you are going. Either you are willing to let your kids play with the toys there and entertain themselves OR you bring an alternative.

Expecting a child to sit still for a long amount of time with a toy staring them in the face is just ridiculous. Which was my point.

Sorry you took it as a harsh criticism.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
Even if mom was worried about germs, is tying your child to a chair at any time ever okay?

Well, a stroller is physically restraining them, a crib or playpen restrains them. A car seat restrains them, a buckle in a high chair or a shopping cart does.

While tying him to the chair with the blanket looked bad, kids get restrained all the time. I'm not saying what she did was a great idea, but I wouldn't call it child abuse.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
And, yes, I strap my child into his highchair to eat and the two little ones in carseats when we travel by car. However, never have I heard of tying a child to a chair as a *punishment* other than in extremely abusive situations or possibly in a special needs type situation. I can understand needing to restrain children at times for their own good, to keep them from getting hurt, etc. But the way this was done was really truly disturbing.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
If you read my posts, I really was trying to find a way that this could have been an okay thing to do so that I wasn't judging this mother.

As I said, whether restraint is abusive or not is completely dependent on the reason, duration, and context. I would add to that the parent's attitude and tone toward the child, too. I hope you understand that I certainly wasn't saying you shouldn't have been disturbed . . . I was primarily responding to the people who were making blanket statements that any restraint in any context is always abusive. I do not believe that is true.

You can always strike up conversations with the parents in these types of situations. Sometimes that can help diffuse tension between the parent and child, as well as having the possibility of giving the you as an outside observer more information that could help explain what's going on in the situation.

Just ambling over and saying something like, "It's hard having to wait so long with a little one, isn't it? How old is he?" might help to diffuse the situation or give you an opening to suggest another way to keep the child occupied, etc. Although if she was busy text-messaging or whatever that might not work as well. I can certainly see why the situation would bother you, especially after you added the extra information about how she wasn't interacting with him otherwise, her tone toward him, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
As for the mother who squirted her child in the face, I have decided I am going to call her and ask her to go to coffee without our children. I'm going to bring along some literature and tell her how I felt about witnessing what I did, in a non-accusatory way, and go from there. I can only hope that she responds in a positive manner. I don't really want to spend time with her, but feel it is the least I can do. Maybe she just needs some education?

I think that's a great idea, and the kindest thing you can do for both the other mother and the child. Maybe you will be a good influence in their lives.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Playing Devil's Advocate here--Is this too dissimilar to taking the child into the office in his stroller and leaving him buckled into it?


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## MrsAprilMay (Jul 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I have heard that the spray bottle is a fantastic teaching tool when you are trying to train your cat not to climb the curtains. I can't quite understand the leap from cats to pre-schoolers.

Yes, but I would NEVER spray any of my cats IN THE FACE 4-5 TIMES to make the point.

People make me sad.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsAprilMay* 
Yes, but I would NEVER spray any of my cats IN THE FACE 4-5 TIMES to make the point.

People make me sad.

No. I wouldn't either. I was mostly being sarcastic anyway. I did the spray bottle thing with my cat, but she never knew where it came from. LOL I think she just thought it happened when she touched the curtains.

I do spray the daycare kids, but they are dancing around in front of me saying "Try to get me, try to get me" then they scream and run.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Fear that not acting in extreme, memorable ways will result in having children who grow up to be sociopaths who bring shame upon the family.

The belief that children are animals and not yet full-fledged human beings helps too. You can justify being cruel once you've found a way to explain why someone else isn't worthy of respect.

That's what the household that I grew up in believed; they've told me these things outright and they're not the only ones.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

At Orin's first visit to the ped, there was this 3 year-old little girl being very quiet, moving around a bit but not bothering anyone or hurting anything, who was kind and well-behaved. Her mom kept freaking out at her for sitting the "wrong" way and not being all grown up and sophisticated, for getting up, etc. She just kept yelling at her, telling her she was going to spank her, not hugging her, and so on. I was like, what the hell? She isn't even doing anything wrong. She's just being a kid.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
I just have to weigh in one last time. It hurts me when I see children treated callously. Treated like they are not little beings with feelings and needs. Treated as property to be used as a parent sees fit. I thought this would be a safe place to express my outrage over this fact, and these two situations coming so closely together really impacted me.

I'm not saying I am a perfect parent. I have resorted to parenting techniques at times that I am not proud of. And, yes, I strap my child into his highchair to eat and the two little ones in carseats when we travel by car. However, never have I heard of tying a child to a chair as a *punishment* other than in extremely abusive situations or possibly in a special needs type situation. I can understand needing to restrain children at times for their own good, to keep them from getting hurt, etc. But the way this was done was really truly disturbing.

I'm not sure what the nurses at the doctors office did. Maybe they did report that family. But in so many horrific situations with children being abused, you hear that there were plenty of warning signs, and no one took them seriously. I would hate to see this child's picture on a tv screen as another statistic and know that I was one of those people who did nothing.

If you read my posts, I really was trying to find a way that this could have been an okay thing to do so that I wasn't judging this mother. In our society, IMO we get desensitized to people treating their children badly. IMO, this helps the cycle of abuse continue. Again, I am not a perfect parent and I am not a parent who judges others lightly. I just thought that this would be a place where others could possibly understand why tying a child to a chair is so repugnant to me.

As for the mother who squirted her child in the face, I have decided I am going to call her and ask her to go to coffee without our children. I'm going to bring along some literature and tell her how I felt about witnessing what I did, in a non-accusatory way, and go from there. I can only hope that she responds in a positive manner. I don't really want to spend time with her, but feel it is the least I can do. Maybe she just needs some education?


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
The mother went and got a spray bottle filled with water and squirted her 4 or 5 times in the face with it. WTH? She said she was trying to "train" her to behave. I made excuses within a minute or two and we left. We obviously will never go back there.


My mother tried this with a hamster. Every time the hamster gnawed on the cage she would squirt it with water. What it taught the hamster was that when it was thirsty it should gnaw on the cage and wait for my mother to arrive.


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## Wolfcat (Jan 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
I've tied my child to her high chair at the table when she wouldn't stop standing up in it. That is no different than a seatbelt. It's a safety issue.

My grandma has an old stool/step chair that DS uses when we eat there. There is nothing to keep DS on the chair, and at 18 mo he's hardly able to stay in it (he's such a wiggle worm!). So we tie a few towels together and make a seatbelt!

But I agree that this is a specific instance that has a safety purpose and unsatisfactory alternatives. Plus, DS is used to the seatbelt when eating (he will try to snap it himself if we forget!).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purple_kangaroo* 
I hardly think that the restraint is in itself abusive. It depends completely on the reason, duration, and context of the restraint.

I think expecting a small child to sit quietly in a chair for that long is unreasonable, but as others have said, there could be extenuating circumstances.

Squirting a child in the face with a water bottle I would be shocked at. Couldn't that damage the child's eyes or get inhaled, in addition to being cruel and uncomfortable?

I agree that the eyes may be injured. A strong enough squirt could cause blindness or malformation of the conjunctiva over the pupil, which can lead to a need to wear glasses.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Well, a stroller is physically restraining them, a crib or playpen restrains them. A car seat restrains them, a buckle in a high chair or a shopping cart does.

While tying him to the chair with the blanket looked bad, kids get restrained all the time. I'm not saying what she did was a great idea, but I wouldn't call it child abuse.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
Playing Devil's Advocate here--Is this too dissimilar to taking the child into the office in his stroller and leaving him buckled into it?

A car seat is a necessity. And if DS doesn't want to be restrained in the stroller, he can walk. I also insist that DS be given a chance to stretch his legs and expend some energy if we are on a long car trip. Limiting movement just makes for cranky babes, IMO, and should be minimized as much as possible (ie, for safety ONLY).

But that's just my belief.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipse95* 
As for the mother who squirted her child in the face, I have decided I am going to call her and ask her to go to coffee without our children. I'm going to bring along some literature and tell her how I felt about witnessing what I did, in a non-accusatory way, and go from there. I can only hope that she responds in a positive manner. I don't really want to spend time with her, but feel it is the least I can do. Maybe she just needs some education?

I don't think you should be offended by what some of the other pps have said about whether or not what you witnessed was cruel. I think the misunderstanding is coming from describing the tying event. You were there, and you witnessed the attitude of disrespect, and that was what made you feel that it was cruel. I think it's hard to describe those things. I've even written posts on here about times when I've been mean to my kids and people have said, "Oh, that's not mean," because it was too hard to convey the nasty tone of voice and facial expressions I used, kwim? But I will say that those are two crazy and random events for you to have witnessed. I've never even heard of such a thing.









Anyway, I think you're very brave for deciding to have a conversation with that mother, though I wouldn't take her to coffee. What if she takes it the wrong way and is incredibly offended, and then you can't get the check or something? I would personally be too afraid of the awkwardness possibility!


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