# How do we respond to dead baby scares?



## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Sorry if this story has already been posted. It's from the June 5 Toronto Star.
Is there a way to counteract this kind of publicity?

http://www.thestar.com/living/article/221596


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

didn't the AAP say co-sleeping is okay? i mean, didn't they revise their stance from disapproving to cautiously approving, due to the evidence that safe co-sleeping can _prevent_ SIDS by regulating infant breathing?

that should be a huge help. i mean, if the AAP is saying CS might prevent SIDS, then these UA violations are going against medical "experts." i'd say the AAP has more clout than coroners in ontario (or detroit). so it's just a matter of rebutting these emotional appeals with actual evidence.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I make sure to let people know that they lump together ALL forms of co-sleeping into these so-called studies.... including but not limited to crack mothers passing out on the couch with their infants next to them, trashed parents who don't even breastfeed passing out in bed with their babies, etc. etc. etc.

I make sure that people understand that when parents are sober and the mother is nursing, and they are cosleeping under safe PLANNED conditions, the incidence of SIDS and suffocation deaths are DECREASED. Thousands and thousands of years of biology - it was only quite recently that mothers began sleeping apart from their infants - has assured us that mom and baby stay in a heightened state of awareness, even during sleep cycles, and each breath and movement of the infant is registered by mom, even during sleep.

I share my story of when my babe was a brand-newborn. We were cosleeping. She was kind of twitching but not making ANY noise. She had, for some reason, ceased breathing (it was almost like she was choking). This extremely slight, subtle movement awoke me from my sleep. I turned her over, thumped her on her back, she coughed and gagged, and began breathing again.

I still refuse to really think about what would have happened if she was not sleeping with me that night. It horrifies me.


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## timneh_mom (Jun 13, 2005)

I went to a community baby shower that was for low income moms in the area who were pregnant or had babies under a year old. Our LLL group had been invited and I was helping the leader work our table. It was nice (well, until you read the next paragraph) because there were a lot of community services there and we had a few moms stop to talk to us - there were also drawings for prizes, some of which were really nice, and almost every mom left with something new for her baby.

One of the presentations was about safe sleeping. They showed slides of babies who had died because they'd fallen between the couch cushions, etc. I was aghast that they would be showing that kind of thing to a room full of pregnant women (I was pregnant at the time too) and I mentioned my feelings to a lady who had a table next to ours. (I think she was the BF person at the health department or something similar.) She basically told me that sometimes you have to scare people into doing the right thing, and implied that all these low income moms were so stupid that the only way they would sleep their babies ALONE and on their BACKS was to see horrible photos of dead babies! I wanted to slap her!


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
I make sure to let people know that they lump together ALL forms of co-sleeping into these so-called studies.... including but not limited to crack mothers passing out on the couch with their infants next to them, trashed parents who don't even breastfeed passing out in bed with their babies, etc. etc. etc.

I make sure that people understand that when parents are sober and the mother is nursing, and they are cosleeping under safe PLANNED conditions, the incidence of SIDS and suffocation deaths are DECREASED. Thousands and thousands of years of biology - it was only quite recently that mothers began sleeping apart from their infants - has assured us that mom and baby stay in a heightened state of awareness, even during sleep cycles, and each breath and movement of the infant is registered by mom, even during sleep.

I share my story of when my babe was a brand-newborn. We were cosleeping. She was kind of twitching but not making ANY noise. She had, for some reason, ceased breathing (it was almost like she was choking). This extremely slight, subtle movement awoke me from my sleep. I turned her over, thumped her on her back, she coughed and gagged, and began breathing again.

I still refuse to really think about what would have happened if she was not sleeping with me that night. It horrifies me.

Well said.







I had a similar situation when my son was an infant. The slightest movement from him, I knew if he was awake or just stirring in his sleep.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I would just make mention of all the babies who die in cribs due to SIDS. The ratio or deaths is WAY more on the crib side.
Sleeping with a baby has proven to be safe, when certain guidelines are followed, as with anything else.
As for how I know I'll never roll over a baby, it's the same as not falling off the bed on a regular basis, it's a sixth sense, if you will.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
I make sure that people understand that when parents are sober and the mother is nursing, and they are cosleeping under safe PLANNED conditions, the incidence of SIDS and suffocation deaths are DECREASED. Thousands and thousands of years of biology - it was only quite recently that mothers began sleeping apart from their infants - has assured us that mom and baby stay in a heightened state of awareness, even during sleep cycles, and each breath and movement of the infant is registered by mom, even during sleep.

Yes. I'd share this as well as my own personal experience. Whenever one of my girls starts coughing or throwing up in the night, I'm instantly aware as they're right next to me, one on either side. If their breathing sounds congested, I'm quick to slip a pillow or folded towel under their heads.

What about the horror stories we hear of children choking to death on their own vomit? I bet that never happens when children share sleep with a healthy (not drugged) and in-tune parent.

timneh_mom, how awful that they showed those horrifying pictures to pregnant mommas! I get really offended when people think being low-income means you're dumb and you need "scare-tactics."

I remember learning about childrearing conditions in Victorian times: the poorer children were actually healthier because they got to spend their days with their own moms, got their own mothers' milk instead of being farmed out to wet-nurses or fed substitutes, and they got to sleep in close contact with their mothers' warm bodies.

Yet this was also the time-period when lots of young, unmarried, upper-class women got interested in doing "social-work" -- going into the homes of poor people and interfering with their tried-and-true parenting practices. It sounds like some things -- like patronizing attitudes toward the poor -- never change.


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## silly_scout (Aug 31, 2006)

How many of these co-sleeping deaths were from parents breaking the cardinal rule of no drugs or alcohol? If that's the case, then their argument should be "co-sleeping is bad for substance abusers".


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## justice'smom (Jun 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
I would just make mention of all the babies who die in cribs due to SIDS. The ratio or deaths is WAY more on the crib side.









: Isn't it funny though that they don't talk about all those deaths. They focus on the few deaths that occur when a mother is sleeping with her baby. I would love to know more about what happened to those babies. Like you ladies have said, were the moms sober, was baby laying next to dad, I mean what really happened?


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## amyleigh33 (Nov 2, 2006)

Quote:

Of 30 infant deaths in 2006 and the first months of 2007, Cairns said that 20 were caused by "co-sleeping" with adults or other unsafe sleeping environments.
the wording of this article means that 1/20 might have been from co-sleeping (possibly with a parent uti of drugs or alcohol!), the other 19 may well have been caused by blankets, pillows, crib bumpers, or who knows what...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I've also heard that medical examiners tend to attribute any and all infant deaths to "over-lying," whenever an infant dies after sharing sleep in a parent's bed. Meaning the parent may not have actually rolled over on the child and caused the child's death -- but it's still *ass*umed that this is the case if the baby wasn't sleeping alone.

This is so interesting (and upsetting) because even though SIDS is usually described as "crib-death," crib-sleeping, or sleeping alone, is never seen as the cause of death -- even with Dr. McKenna's research (I think it's Dr. McKenna's research, somebody correct me if I'm wrong) now showing how co-sleeping helps babies remember to breathe.

If a baby dies sleeping alone in a crib that meets safety standards, the death is treated as something "unpreventable," and definitely not the parents' fault. Of course, I'm not saying any parent should be blamed for such a tragedy, whatever the sleeping arrangement.

It's just so twisted that the cases are treated so differently: if crib-sleeping babies die, it's just "one of those tragic things" -- but if co-sleeping babies die, it's invariably blamed on the co-sleeping.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oh, and I really hate the way the _Babywise_ people scare new parents about co-sleeping. They agree that, yes, it's true that some babies die when put to sleep in cribs -- then go on to say that at least _those_ parents can know they didn't roll over on their babies and kill them.


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## Elipsisqueen (May 7, 2007)

I do believe fathers can pose a threat to little babies. My DH is oblivious to EVERYTHING when he is asleep. I wonder if even one of those deaths was a baby sleeping with just Mom...


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## rik8144 (Apr 3, 2007)

My grandmother just started this discussion yesterday. A friend of my grandfathers is a fireman and he responded to a home the night before where the baby was "smothered" by the mother. My GM said the mom rolled over on the baby. I asked if she knew if she were on drugs, drinking, or had taken a sleep aid before bed. Of course she didn't know! I get it at work too....of course I don't listen!


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## Yippy! (Jan 2, 2007)

this caught my eye in the article "blanket should be tucked in"- we didn't use blankets when my son was a baby-I just dressed him in baby pajamas-isn't a blanket a hazard?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yippy!* 
this caught my eye in the article "blanket should be tucked in"- we didn't use blankets when my son was a baby-I just dressed him in baby pajamas-isn't a blanket a hazard?

I've never found it hazardous to co-sleep with a sheet, or sheet-and-blanket. I just put it up to Baby's and my waist, not all the way up. We only go without covers on very hot nights. We love lots of skin-to-skin contact, so Baby usually just wears her diaper to bed.


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## fawny (Jul 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
I make sure to let people know that they lump together ALL forms of co-sleeping into these so-called studies.... including but not limited to crack mothers passing out on the couch with their infants next to them, trashed parents who don't even breastfeed passing out in bed with their babies, etc. etc. etc.

That was my first thought too when I saw this story on the news, how convenient of them to leave out the specific situations of infant death due to co-sleeping...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fawny* 
That was my first thought too when I saw this story on the news, how convenient of them to leave out the specific situations of infant death due to co-sleeping...









Yes! Because I bet they find out specifics when the crib-death occurs in a crib.


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## Keeping up (Apr 7, 2004)

There were follow on articles/editorials to that article (it ran in many Canadian newspapers). I can't remember the exact details but with many of the cases (I want to say 15 to 20 of the 30 deaths) charges of negligence were likely due to drugs/alcohol etc.

My parents phoned on this one - and we had to wait for the editorial to get them to jump off that bandwagon. Of note, while we have a cosleeper and so is in our bed only half the night ... I refuse to put the babe between my husband and I (so between me and the cosleeper which he could safely 'fall' into) as I don't trust my husband to be as aware as I am (and he agrees).


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 
I would just make mention of all the babies who die in cribs due to SIDS. The ratio or deaths is WAY more on the crib side.

I hate this argument because it is misleading and unuseful. The main reason fewer babies die in bed is that fewer people co-sleep, not because co-sleeping is necessarily safer.


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

I like to counteract this kind of publicity by saying, when a baby dies in a crib, you don't hear calls to ban cribs. You ask how we can use cribs more safely. Similarly, when a baby dies in bed, the question we should be asking is, how can we increase the safety of co-sleeping? A few simple steps such as moving a bed out from against the wall and avoiding co-sleeping while under the influences of drugs and alcohol can hugely reduce the death rate. And yet, hospital handouts and baby books like What to Expect will go into extreme detail about crib safety and completely overlook cosleeping safety. It's irresponsible and negligent that they leave out this vital information parents of newborns need.


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hypatia* 
And yet, hospital handouts and baby books like What to Expect will go into extreme detail about crib safety and completely overlook cosleeping safety. It's irresponsible and negligent that they leave out this vital information parents of newborns need.

I couldn't agree more! of course it's a bad idea to sleep in a bed w/ an infant and huge fluffy down comforters and million pillows or if you've been drinking, using drugs or are honestly too tired to be roused by an infants movements. why don't they tell people this? a previous poster hit the nail on the head. i was very poor once and living in a homeless shelter where it was assumed that every mother there was dumb. you could have said many were un or under educated and been right but dumb? i think not. it's so insulting!

i really think that in the education of young or poor mothers the assumption is that "those people" are too lazy/poor to buy a crib and are just sticking babies where they fit. the message of all those dead baby photos is that poverty and not having enough money for a crib leads to death so no matter how poor you are if you love your baby you will buy it things. things that are unattainable to the poor- rather than good attentive parenting will save a babies life. this argument is even more disgusting when you realize that many people fully understand that they will live the whole of their lives in or around poverty. hey, it's reality. i see it every day of my life. no need to go around robbing people of their basic dignity and telling them that it's imposable to live within their means and keep their children safe. one more slap in the face that i have seen lead to both lowered self esteem and the purchase of low quality, dangerous cribs. my counter to people when i was living in the shelter was that i coslept safely and that i was working so hard during the day that bonding time in the evening was the best part of both our days.


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## Siana (Jun 21, 2004)

"Of 30 infant deaths in 2006 and the first months of 2007, Cairns said that 20 were caused by "co-sleeping" with adults or other unsafe sleeping environments."
I love how they clump responsible cosleeping with "unsafe cosleeping" (where excess drugs, alcohold etc. are involved) and "other unsafe sleeping environments". It's all the same









Oh and I think they should've used to the word "bedsharing" because cosleeping itself is nothing more than having a child sleep within sensory distance of a caregiver.

I have far too many other issues with the article, but I'm sure they've been covered.


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## Lunaria (May 30, 2007)

*sigh* it is so frusterating how the majority of people view bedsharing. I got the warning from the in-laws about how it's not safe and how someone just layed on their baby and it died. All the bad publicity. I don't know what to say, I just say how much I love sharing sleep with my baby. Pretty much the 'it's working for us' line.

Jenny


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hypatia* 
I hate this argument because it is misleading and unuseful. The main reason fewer babies die in bed is that fewer people co-sleep, not because co-sleeping is necessarily safer.

That's why she said the ratio, not the number. The number of cosleeping babies who die compared to the total number of cosleeping babies is a lower percentage than the number of noncosleeping babies who die as compared to the total number of noncosleeping babies. It's a totally valid argument.


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## fawny (Jul 25, 2007)

I saw this story on Global news (I think it was Global...) and the "expert" made it seem like co-sharing is what breastfeeding mothers do because it's "easy", he totally made breastfeeding mothers who co-sleep sound like lazy selfish people when the EXACT opposite was true! It made me furious!


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## Twwly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow that article makes me 200000 shads of furious.

"Of 30 infant deaths in 2006 and the first months of 2007, Cairns said that 20 were caused by "co-sleeping" with adults or other unsafe sleeping environments." <--- OR OTHER UNSAFE SLEEPING ENVIRONMENTS is the key here.

What garbage!


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

To the OP: I respond to *$&%[email protected]#&! articles like this one with the following two arguments:

1. We are one of the few countries that DOESN'T keep the babies in bed with mama. As long as a mother is smart about co-sleeping (no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, no soft bedding, no couch napping, no excess of pillows, and so on), there is extremely little danger to the baby.

2. SIDS used to be called "cot-death" or "crib death", never "co-sleeping death". Not judging how people should make sleeping arrangements with their children, just that it makes one think a bit about the situation based on the name of the syndrome.

Slighlty OT, to quote the article:

********

Cairns said he understands the argument from mothers that they want to breastfeed their infants in bed.

"I am not against breastfeeding; just don't do it in bed," he said. "Bond with the baby in the crib beside you. At least you are bonding with a baby who is alive."

********

I hate his statement. The only way to keep the baby alive at night is by keeping him/her at a minimum distance of arm's length.







:


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
That's why she said the ratio, not the number. The number of cosleeping babies who die compared to the total number of cosleeping babies is a lower percentage than the number of noncosleeping babies who die as compared to the total number of noncosleeping babies. It's a totally valid argument.

Ratio point taken.

But it's my impression that there's _not_ good data to demonstrate that (I would love it if I'm wrong?)


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hypatia* 
I hate this argument because it is misleading and unuseful. The main reason fewer babies die in bed is that fewer people co-sleep, not because co-sleeping is necessarily safer.

I'm not sure that's accurate. For one thing, it may not be true that fewer people co-sleep, even in the western world. When anonymous surveys were taken of parents in the U.S. and Europe, they found that about 50% of U.S. infants were sharing their parents' bed at least sometimes during the two weeks prior to the survey. Some regions have a higher rate: for example, 75% of Alaskan infants co-sleep "sometimes or always." 30% of infants in England were found to be bed-sharing on any given night surveyed and 46% "for at least some time during the night." Since co-sleeping still isn't seen as acceptable, parents don't always admit to it, so we may be underestimating the number of babies who co-sleep. If it's actually 50%, that would affect safety statistics.

Second, in cultures where co-sleeping is usual, SIDS rates are often observed to be lower. In Japan, for example, most babies sleep with their parents, and the SIDS rate is far lower than in North America. There could be other reasons for the lower rate, of course, but it at least suggests that co-sleeping isn't a major cause of infant death.


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## hypatia (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
When anonymous surveys were taken of parents in the U.S. and Europe, they found that about 50% of U.S. infants were sharing their parents' bed at least sometimes during the two weeks prior to the survey. Since co-sleeping still isn't seen as acceptable, parents don't always admit to it, so we may be underestimating the number of babies who co-sleep. If it's actually 50%, that would affect safety statistics.

So if people are significantly downplaying the amount of time they cosleep, then there might be something like parity between cosleeping and separate sleeping. But that's speculative, not hard numbers. That's not something we can quote to the media.

Quote:

Second, in cultures where co-sleeping is usual, SIDS rates are often observed to be lower. In Japan, for example, most babies sleep with their parents, and the SIDS rate is far lower than in North America. There could be other reasons for the lower rate, of course, but it at least suggests that co-sleeping isn't a major cause of infant death.
I find this style of argument much more appealing.


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