# DCFS help needed update post #151



## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

deleted


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## Alana (Jan 4, 2005)

I dont haave any advice...but I couldnt read this and not reply


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## CathToria (Sep 6, 2003)

I don't have advice, but i will pray for you and your dd..........


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## Penelope (Jul 22, 2003)

Oh, Janis. I'm so sorry.

My only thought is to call your pediatrician, if you have a good one. He or she might have a therapist to recommend you to who specializes in teens, or some info on some other kind of therapy/living situation. At the very least, if DCFS investigates further, your ped. can speak about your situation will full knowledge if necessary.

I wonder if your dd is reliving the hurt of your older dd's death, as she approaches the age at which her sister began to have such terrible difficulty.

Good luck, mama, you and your dd and your whole family are in my prayers.


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

While they may be doing a mandatory investigation, my guess would be that your DD is no picnic with them either. It may be something they're doing to cover their bases. Honestly, I think they'll probably see right through her. Again, that's just a bystander's guess, but I can't see her being that volatile and it not showing through to them.

On top of that





















to your whole family.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

OMG.







I'm sorry, Janis. I'm so sorry this happened. (((HUGS)))


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## Angelstill (Jun 14, 2003)

Honestly having dcfs involved may not be a bad thing. It souds like your dd needs some serious help and quick. My sister died 3 years ago and I was devastated as an adult, I can't imagine how devestating it would be at that age.

Let DCFS know about your older child and your fear for your youger dd. Ask them to help you find your dd some help.

Hugs to you!


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## papayapetunia (Feb 6, 2006)

I'm not going to lie. I think it's terrible that you told them to keep her. I know your rationale may be that "she's a danger to herself and others," but chances are, she didn't like spending the night wherever she spent the night and will respond well to the threat of having the cops called on her again.

She could have PTSD or any number of psychological problems because of her sister's death. She could also have genetic psychological problems, if that is what her sister had. Add abandonment to that, and who knows what will happen to her?

You should go pick her up right now. Is this not an AP site? Is there some age when AP theories are no longer applicable? She's still a child.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

My two oldest kids put us through all kinds of stuff with CPS.

In both cases, I was able to convince a relative to take the kid. It wasn't great, but it was better than _I felt_ foster care would be. In both cases, it broke my heart.

And with the kids 27 and 23, we're all friends now. THey both tell stories about how horrible they were, and neither thinks we were mean or evil for setting limits and sticking to them.

It's soooo painful for the younger kids.

I'm includingyou in my prayers tonight. Know that you can only do the best you can, and no more.


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## hipem (Jul 13, 2005)

Thinking of you and your family. Wishing you strength and peace as you work through this.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

Janis, I'm so sorry this is happening.







I hope you can find the best way to help her. I like what a previous poster said about asking the pediatrician for help/referrals.


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

I think child services might "MIGHT" be a blessing for you perhaps they could find a residential anger managment and behavioral therapy school for her?
my dd went to one it was amazing the transformation.

I say call them first thing in the morning and arrange an appointment at their offices to discuss treatment options for your child who is in distress.

Quote:

As for my dd, I'm not sure I even want her home at this point. Her actions and allegations are frightening to us and to the rest of the kids.
sadly she is a danger at this point and would probably benefit from therapy outside the home.

Sounds as if she might need a workup to see if there are any biochemical issues like bipolar, schizophrenia and medical issues. she's harming and violent so she fits the top of the list for treatment.

Quote:

I'm not going to lie. I think it's terrible that you told them to keep her. I know your rationale may be that "she's a danger to herself and others," but chances are, she didn't like spending the night wherever she spent the night and will respond well to the threat of having the cops called on her again.
I don't think it was terrible you have to have some limits and it sounds like she's been running over you for a while it is hard as a mother to accept you cannot heal your own childs emmotional issues. It is harder to say I can't have this child here now it seems outwardly like its rejecting its not, its not rejecting to get help when you need it. Thats a lot of stress and its probably best for both of you as well when my dd did that I never laid a hand on her other than to defend myself but oh man I sure wanted to after those types of physical and emmotional punches in the face.

Quote:

She could have PTSD or any number of psychological problems because of her sister's death. She could also have genetic psychological problems, if that is what her sister had. Add abandonment to that, and who knows what will happen to her?
I think getting help when you need it and protecting yourself and other family members is not abandonment its intelligence. Abandonment would be dropping her off at the CPS and saying she's all yours

Quote:

You should go pick her up right now. Is this not an AP site? Is there some age when AP theories are no longer applicable? She's still a child.
WHAT? No guilt on this mama is not going to be helpful to the family, attachment parenting does not mean you allow your kids to abuse you to keep a bond going... loving a child means that you know when you can handle a situation and when you can't. The only thing that may preserve the family sometimes is seperation for the family to sort out the issues.


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

For what is worth and since I know that you were looking for support not citizism...I think you did the right thing telling them to keep her over night. AP means meeting your child's needs and if she is hurting herself and others (what if she went after another of your children next time?), I think you are meeting her needs by letting her see where her current path is taking her. Effective AP families are family-centered, not child-centered. I also believe that having to sit overnight in youth services for assault is a natural consequences . If it was a teacher she attacked, they could press charges and she would really be spending time in youth detention. AP does not mean you let your kids do anything the want. Boundaries do exist in AP, particularly in teen years where they really need them. You know your child better than anyone else. Many major psychological illnesses can begin to manifest around the early teen years. Do you think that is a possibility?

Your family is in my thoughts.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I hope you can get some help for your daughter and your family. I think family counseling is urgently needed, just based on what you've posted here: one child committed suicide, another physically attacked you, and you thought purposely getting a third sick, puking drunk was good parenting. All of those are red flags that things aren't working in your family, IMO. Your daughter may be the one acting out now, but from a family systems perspective, that's her role in the family, and it's the family system that needs to be fixed.

Simply getting rid of the designated "problem" won't fix the underlying issues. You can't think of this as "Why is she messing up?" but "How is this family messing up?" I truly hope you find a competent counselor.

dar


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


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## papayapetunia (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shiloh*
WHAT? No guilt on this mama is not going to be helpful to the family, attachment parenting does not mean you allow your kids to abuse you to keep a bond going... loving a child means that you know when you can handle a situation and when you can't. The only thing that may preserve the family sometimes is seperation for the family to sort out the issues.

AP is looking into sending a 15-year-old to a tough-love bootcamp? Come on.

I've done extensive work with teenagers and in my experience, I have found that they act out for a reason. This could be family death, divorce, adoption, rape, molestation, etc. Good parents look to local therapy options to help their troubled teenagers.

OP, if you're really thinking about a tough-love option like bootcamp, I urge you to first read the book Help at Any Cost: How the Troubled-Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids, by Maia Szalavitz. It details a lot of problems with the industry.


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

I really hope this gets better for you. My sister struggled like this when she was a teen and it was really hard on everyone- we got through it and so can your family. Don't reject the help that is out there.

Contrary to what some of the other posters think, remember that you are doing the best you can- you and your family have been through a whole lot and the last thing you need is more guilt.


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## cj'smommy (Aug 14, 2003)

I agree. Whether or not you agree with JanisB, she obviously posted in desperation and looking for help, not to be judged and called a bad parent.

Janis, I don't have any advice for you but I hope you get the help you and your family need.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

First off, dd IS in therapy. She has been since her sister died. Ongoing, weekly therapy.

We've done family counseling, long term.

She has been evaluated numerous times by a psychiatrist. She does have PTSD and depression, which is why she is in therapy and on meds to help her. One of my concerns is a medication she is on and started at the first of the year. Since going on it, she has gotten worse not better. She has an appointment for a med evaluation next week.

We've gotten the kids involved in support groups.

For those who offered support, thank you. Some posts have felt, to me, a bit harsh. I'm not perfect. I never said I was. You don't know the agony, self blame and self hatred I have for my daughters death. I _do_ blame myself.

I'm out of answers on how to help my dd. I live in fear of losing another child. I panic when they are late from school. I worry myself to the point of ulcers and near breakdowns over them.

Part of being a parent, to me, is doing the best you can for all your kids. Leaving dd at youth sevices tonight was to give her a chance to calm down, for me to calm down, for the other kids to have some peace. I went down and took her meds to her along with a few other things. They brought her out to collect them. She glared at me, would not speak to me. I gave her things to her, the worker had to prompt her to say thank you. She did but in a snotty voice. I said I loved her. She said whatever and walked away.

The options of programs to put her in are not to punish her or to send her away. It is trying to find help, something that will reach her.

When C had problems after M's death, we put her into an inpatient treatment program. Intensive therapy, group, individual, peer. She was only expected to be there 3 months. She was in for 7. But you know what, I have my daughter back. She's happy, she has a job, just got a promotion. She's dating. She is no longer cutting, starving herself and planning her death. So "abandoning" her was the best thing for her. It gave her a way to find her way after losing her sister, her best friend.

It's very easy to sit back and judge when you have not walked the walk another is on. You lose a child to suicide (or any other way) and who you were no longer exists. Lose a sibling or spouse and the same applies. There is the life you had before and the new one. One filled with pain, tears, suffering and never ending questions and self doubt. You struggle like hell to find your footing again. To find a way to go on.

My daughter is hurting. I know that. But she cannot tear the family apart further. We need to find the best way to help her and if that means a placement program of some type, so be it. It wouldn't be to make things easier for us. It would be to try and help her. I'm not the type to keep plugging away at something that does not work rather than get her help.

I know I asked for advice and help but I will respectfully ask that if you want to add to the guilt I already have, please remain silent. I beat myself up enough. I don't need any help to feel like an even sh*ttier parent.


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

i have never seen tough love work. i have never seen tough love camps work.

i agree with the PP would suggested serious family counseling, and couseling for you daughter alone.








i hope you all get the help you need.


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

You guys have been through so much. It must have been so hard going through all of that tonight, but you did the right thing for the situation.

I agree with a pp that a psych eval sounds like a good idea. Also, is she currently in counseling?

Sorry, we x-posted


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## JustVanessa (Sep 7, 2005)

mama

I was a teenager who behaved like your dd. In my case I was responding to some pretty crappy things that had happened in my life (abuse, abandonment etc.) My mom sent me to live with other people on a few different occasions and it really helped me realize where here limitations were.
I don't know your family situation but maybe you have a relative/friend you could send her to stay with for 3-6months. With a condition that if her behavior warrants it, she can be allowed to move back in?

I hope you find some guidance here mama!
Good luck.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

deleted


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

BIG







for you Janis. I pulled something like this when I was about your DD's age. Nothing that my parents did really helped, it was something that I had to deal with. But I needed professional help, and my parents weren't exactly agressive in helping me get it. This sounds like it is beyond the scope of your family. Please get her some counseling.









ETA~ We x-posted. I saw that you are concerned about the meds. Are there any naturopaths in your area that maybe you could take your DD to?

OT~ Ladies, Janis needs our support right now, not an argument. Whether you agree with her actions or not, she did what she thought was best for her family. I would hope that we as fellow mothers could at least recognise her pain and offer our support and good wishes.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I wish I had some advice for you. I was the troubled teen that got pregnant and that is what straightened me out. That is what got through to me. I don't know what it will take to get through to your daughter that she isn't the center of the universe and she's hurting people around her. Teenagers can be very selfish and I just don't know what it takes to make them NOT selfish. But I just wanted to say I'm sorry you have to go through this stuff and I hope that something will get through to her so you can have your daughter back.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

TOugh love camps may work for a few but everything I've read about them screams "RUN AWAY NOW!!!" - with children there who have no business being there, and staff members who really have no business in such positions.

I am a behavior therapist and I am well aware of many behavior problems. There is always a cause, and I don't believe in punitive ways of solving them. I work with kids with severe disabilities and behavior issues.

While she may need a change of placement, I beg you to seriously investigate any options you are considering before making a decision.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

Janis, there is an old saying, that if it doesn't feel right, don't do it.

You have to go on your feelings.

I feel you have done the right thing. Given that you have taken all the steps that any responsible parent should, then you have nothing to fear. Your sister gave you advice and surely she will stand by you.

Yes, definitely look at the drugs issue. You know the history of SSRI's I'm sure, and why and how they got taken off the market for adolescents. They can, and do make the situation worse.

There is one other thing you may like to consider if you haven't already done it.

We keep copies of all medical files for our children in the house. It comes in very useful. Either you can get copies or you can talk to the medical people involved, who will vouch for your parenting.

In terms of tough love, I've seen it work as well.

Papayapetunia

Quote:

I'm not going to lie. I think it's terrible that you told them to keep her.
Who are you to say this?

I think its great when someone has the balls to put their kid in a time out situation where no-one's going to take ongoing lying, and she can sit down, cool down, and start to think things through rationally, including the implications of carrying on in such an out of control undermining fashion.

Quote:

I know your rationale may be that "she's a danger to herself and others," but chances are, she didn't like spending the night wherever she spent the night and will respond well to the threat of having the cops called on her again.
You... are second guessing. I'd back Janis's judgement over yours any day.

Quote:

She could have PTSD or any number of psychological problems because of her sister's death. She could also have genetic psychological problems, if that is what her sister had. Add abandonment to that, and who knows what will happen to her?
Again, you second guessed. Given that she's been assessed if she had those wouldn't they have found that out long ago?

Quote:

You should go pick her up right now.
Excuse me, but your comment smacks of Putinism. It's not your life, nor your child.

Quote:

Is this not an AP site?
What has that got to do with it? Are you saying that your views are the only useful ones around here?

Quote:

Is there some age when AP theories are no longer applicable? She's still a child
There is an age when children have to grow up and get a grip. If they refuse to do it the easy way after months of therapy etc, there is a group of them who have to do it the hard way. And that way is usually when parents are at the end of the rope having been dragged around mercilessly for longer than enough.

And frankly, sometimes the experience is good for them.

Kids cannot live all their lives in sunshine, for all sunshine makes a desert, and sometimes to have mountaintop experiences you have to plough through the valleys and sludge.

I know. I've been there.

And maybe Janis has too.


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:

AP is looking into sending a 15-year-old to a tough-love bootcamp? Come on.
who said that? the mama listed it as something on her list of treatment options for her daughter. A residential therapy environment isn't always tough love.

I think it sounds like she's dealing with a lot of issues add in teenage years and hormones and it will take a while to sort them out. But it does set up some big flags for things like bipolar (self harming, violence, rapid cycling)

Good luck mama and hugs from me.

and I am still shocked at people who would step up to judge you..until you have lived and walked in those shoes you really can't talk about it.

Having a child that self harms, is abusive, violent a child you are afraid of while giving everything you have emmotionally, financially....
you don't know the hell it is

Quote:

Good parents look to local therapy options to help their troubled teenagers.
if you read the postings she has done that.


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Janis, I am so sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time. My prayers and thoughts are with all of you.









And FWIW, I agree with CrazyRed here. Janis has been through hell and back, and the LAST thing she needs is someone questioning her APishness?







:


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

For a period of more than 5 years, my older brother was physically violent A LOT and mostly towards me. The cops were called many times and he was taken away in handcuffs and those nights of sleep were bliss. I don't blame you one bit for letting her stay where she is because she can't hurt you and your other children. My brother ended up in a behavioral rehabilitation center of my parent's choosing for 18 months and was never violent again. We actually have a great relationship now.

Personally, I would much rather do some research and send my child to a place I feel comfortable with instead of waiting until a judge declares her a danger and sends her where he thinks she should go. I don't know your daughter so it's not fair for me to make claims to understand what will work for her, but you know her Janis. I think you'll make the best decision for her.


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

PS I don't know anything about boot camps because they aren't something we have where I live.

But we do have tough love programmes. I don't know what you term tough love, but here it is for parents, and consists of them learning enough about the situation to create logical, sensible boundaries, and refuse to be budged on them. They may include what behaviours are acceptable and what is not.

To me, AP doesn't mean the free-for-all TCS approach, or "let it all hang out". There are still acceptable behavioural boundaries, and they aren't something that only apply to adults because children are "just" children so should be automatically exempt.


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## Jessica36 (Oct 14, 2003)

I want to offer hugs first. It sounds like you are doing everything you can.

I read about the meds, I offer only this, if they change her meds (and I would fight them too) have another eval in 1 month. My psychatrist (whom I love, and not that way) believes in eval every month esp with kids.

Good Luck


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## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*
To me, AP doesn't mean the free-for-all TCS approach, or "let it all hang out". There are still acceptable behavioural boundaries, and they aren't something that only apply to adults because children are "just" children so should be automatically exempt.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Oh how I love Momtezuma Tuatara!


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## Momtezuma Tuatara (Mar 3, 2004)

old fashioned fossil that she is?


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## Boadicea (Mar 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*

To me, AP doesn't mean the free-for-all TCS approach, or "let it all hang out". There are still acceptable behavioural boundaries, and they aren't something that only apply to adults because children are "just" children so should be automatically exempt.

Amen, sister! When does that "just" a child become "just" an adult who has to make her way in the world (pretty much) on her own? Isn't it part of our job as parents to prepare our children for adulthood and the time when they have to make their own choices and then live with their own choices and all of the repercussions of those choices? Fifteen is approaching that point, is it not? Yes, she's still Janis' child, but she's fast approaching the time when she is no longer "just" a child, and she needs to have the tools available to her to exist in that world. Continuing to think along the lines that she's exempt from acceptable behavioral boundaries (as MT put it) is not doing her any favors.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Janis - the overwhelming majority of CPS investigations are dismissed. I hope that is a small comfort at this point. I agree with the pp who said that they will most likely see right through your dd. The fact that she has been in counseling and you have been in family couseling should be in your favor as well, as you should have documentation of what your dd's history is. I'm sorry I don't have anything else to offer.


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## CrazyRED (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtezuma Tuatara*







old fashioned fossil that she is?

You betcha! Anyway I can get ya, my dear!


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)




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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

praying for your family tonight, for peace, for discernment, for comfort, and for strength for everyone.


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## organicmommy (May 16, 2005)

Mama I wanted to offer you a hug. You are going through a very tough situation that seems to get tougher by the day. My heart goes out to you and I hope that all of the mama's that are judging you for the way you have handled things NEVER have to deal with what you have been living. You are a very strong person who amazes me more every time I read a post from you. I admire your strength to continue on in your day to day life and be able to still raise your children the best way possible.
Please don't let any of the mama's that are judging you feel any more guilty than you already do. There is no good place for the guilt that you are feeling as I know taht if you could take back everything terrible that has happened in your life you would.

Hugs
Jessica


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

My brother commited suicide in August of '05. I know what you're going through, and I know what she's going though. I was diagnosed with PTSD a couple of years ago. With healthy eating, excersise, therapy, and lots of understanding, I've come through it (the ptsd was from sexual abuse in my childhood). I have an idea of what is going on.

My best advice: talk to a lawyer. Make sure that Family Services isn't going to try to take away your other children. Sign releases with your doctors and make sure that they send letters to your caseworker. Check your DD into a mental facility, where she can recieve intensive therapy and she won't be a danger to herself. Honestly, if my mother had followed my advice and done that for my brother, I beleive he would still be here.

Good luck mama. I know it's hard. She's hurting right now, and I know you are too. I think you did the right thing by letting her stay there. CrazyRed is right. You need support, Mama.. And I have a feeling that your daughter being on Meds might not be such a good idea. I have seen them work for some people, but in all honesty, the best things I ever took to help me with my issues was extacy and mushrooms (responsibly, on seperate occasions, once I was an adult, of course). Not saying to give them to her, just sharing my experience.


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

i wouldn't really call TCS a free for all approach.







:


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I hope you can get some help for your daughter and your family. I think family counseling is urgently needed, just based on what you've posted here: one child committed suicide, another physically attacked you, and you thought purposely getting a third sick, puking drunk was good parenting. All of those are red flags that things aren't working in your family, IMO. Your daughter may be the one acting out now, but from a family systems perspective, that's her role in the family, and it's the family system that needs to be fixed.

Simply getting rid of the designated "problem" won't fix the underlying issues. You can't think of this as "Why is she messing up?" but "How is this family messing up?" I truly hope you find a competent counselor.

dar


I 100% agree with everyting Dar said. In fact she said what i was going to post after reading the OP. Your whole family needs to have counseling with a reputable counselor that will work with you all to break the cycle that has resulted in this situation.


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

Janis - you rock for how you handled the situation. You are doing the right thing, seeking treatment for your daughter. Love to you.

Jenn


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

MT says it all for me again.


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## skj474 (Jul 19, 2002)

I just wanted to give you a







and hope that things get better for you all.


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## CathToria (Sep 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red*
.
In both cases, I was able to convince a relative to take the kid. It wasn't great, but it was better than _I felt_ foster care would be. In both cases, it broke my heart.

My mom had to do the same with my brother. He went to live with my aunt in for his junior year of highschool. It gave him a chance to switch schools, friends, environment to change and start making good choices.

He is now 35 and has beena changed person for the last 18 years. We say that my aunt probably saved his life.


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## CathToria (Sep 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
First off, dd IS in therapy. She has been since her sister died. Ongoing, weekly therapy.

We've done family counseling, long term.

She has been evaluated numerous times by a psychiatrist. She does have PTSD and depression, which is why she is in therapy and on meds to help her. One of my concerns is a medication she is on and started at the first of the year. Since going on it, she has gotten worse not better. She has an appointment for a med evaluation next week.

We've gotten the kids involved in support groups.

For those who offered support, thank you. Some posts have felt, to me, a bit harsh. I'm not perfect. I never said I was. You don't know the agony, self blame and self hatred I have for my daughters death. I *do* blame myself.

I'm out of answers on how to help my dd. I live in fear of losing another child. I panic when they are late from school. I worry myself to the point of ulcers and near breakdowns over them.

Part of being a parent, to me, is doing the best you can for all your kids. Leaving dd at youth sevices tonight was to give her a chance to calm down, for me to calm down, for the other kids to have some peace. I went down and took her meds to her along with a few other things. They brought her out to collect them. She glared at me, would not speak to me. I gave her things to her, the worker had to prompt her to say thank you. She did but in a snotty voice. I said I loved her. She said whatever and walked away.

The options of programs to put her in are not to punish her or to send her away. It is trying to find help, something that will reach her.

When Caite had problems after Marrissa's death, we put her into an inpatient treatment program. Intensive therapy, group, individual, peer. She was only expected to be there 3 months. She was in for 7. But you know what, I have my daughter back. She's happy, she has a job, just got a promotion. She's dating. She is no longer cutting, starving herself and planning her death. So "abandoning" her was the best thing for her. It gave her a way to find her way after losing her sister, her best friend.

It's very easy to sit back and judge when you have not walked the walk another is on. You lose a child to suicide (or any other way) and who you were no longer exists. Lose a sibling or spouse and the same applies. There is the life you had before and the new one. One filled with pain, tears, suffering and never ending questions and self doubt. You struggle like hell to find your footing again. To find a way to go on.

My daughter is hurting. I know that. But she cannot tear the family apart further. We need to find the best way to help her and if that means a placement program of some type, so be it. It wouldn't be to make things easier for us. It would be to try and help her. I'm not the type to keep plugging away at something that does not work rather than get her help.

I know I asked for advice and help but I will respectfully ask that if you want to add to the guilt I already have, please remain silent. I beat myself up enough. I don't need any help to feel like an even sh*ttier parent.

Janis










hugs and prayers to you mama!


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

I'll be praying for your family...


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## littlemama06 (Oct 29, 2005)

I am so sorry for all of you.I am just 19 and i think sometimes kids(teens) need a kick in the butt to be put on the right track.My little sister has had a real hard time lately,she is getting better.My mom had to restrain her one night when she demanded to leave the house even though she was dizzy and sick for not eating.It was so hard on my parents,all of us.
I know my parents had thought they may have to put her in a hospital(they ended up not having to though)
I will be parying for your family,still being a teen myself, i think you did the right thing letting her stay there for the night.If she were an adult and she acted that way,were would she have gone?We were rasied very AP and we really only had natural consequences,thats what your daughter had last night.
Again, I am so sorry.
Kaitlin


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

((((hugs))))) to you Janis! One question I do have for you. Do you like your family counselor? Do you feel that she/he is a good fit? No matter what decision you make with your daughter ongoing family therapy is definately still needed, although you probably already figured that out. I hope you can find the kind of program that she needs and soon. I can't imagine you would have been able to even keep her in the house had you not left her overnight. Heaven forbid she has to sample a tiny taste of what might happen to her if she doesn't get herself under control. (please note sarcasm)

I know that we don't know all the events that have occured to lead this family to this horrible place. I don't know why her much loved daughter took her own life, or the things that happened afterward. How can we presume to know what is best for this girl or for her entire family. Leave judgement for those well equiped to give it. And really, at what age should a child be held accountable for her actions. At 15, it's time to start learning the consequences of her actions. Especially for someone who is having to learn about the harsh realities of life at such a tender age. Should Janis wait until her daughter is 18 when her actions can land her in prison? Ignoring the needs of an individual child in order to follow some general AP list is neglectful. I hope that these gentle principles will work for my children when they are older, and I will always try them first, but my number one responsibility as a parent is to raise a responsible, loving, and caring adult and I will do that in whatever way that I have to. As always, I am amazed by the judgement that comes from a few. (((hugs))) to you Janis. No matter what happened or happens, you deserve them.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Janis,

How is everyone this morning?

I just wanted to check in and encourage you to switch counselors for your family and your DD. I know you mentioned she is in counselling (want to add that when someone is in counselling oftentimes things do get worse before they get better as the client starts to face and relive the hurt etc) but maybe it's not the right counselor? It can take many tries with different therapists before the right one is found - that's very common. Even if a counselor comes with great reccomendations from Drs, friends, family it still might not be the right one for your daughter. It's a personal relationship - ask your DD how she feels about her counselor. Keep looking.

Dar hit the nail on the head about family systems. I hope you find something that works for your family.


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## Boadicea (Mar 28, 2004)

How is everyone this morning, mama?


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)




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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Janis, I'm thinking of you and sending hope and peace to your family. You all so desperately need it.







: I'm here if I can help you in any way....


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## Haydee (Jan 10, 2006)

I'm sorry you have to go through this. This may sound odd, but I'm happy she is acting out. That's her way of asking for help. I was a troubled teen and to this day my mother has no idea I was starving myself, cutting myself, drinking, smoking ciggarettes, doing drugs, anything to try to stop the pain. I did the same thing your DD did, going after my dad and trying to beat him up, my parents just didn't react like you did. I was raped at 15, and should have been in counseling, but my parents never forced me to. I should have had a psych eval, but never did. It's a blessing to your DD that you are doing all that you can to help her though this. 15 is still a child, even though at that age many teenagers believe they are adults. I know I did. The only thing that made me shape up was getting pregnant, and still I stuck with an abusive man for 5 years because he was the father of my child.

My advice? Check her into an inpatient program near you, and visit her as often as you can. CPS isn't as bad as they seem, the majority of cases are dismissed. If they see you doing all that you can to help your DD and other children I think you should be fine. You and your family are in my thoughts!!


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## CallMeMommy (Jun 15, 2005)

Just wanted to give you a







I bet the CPS investigation is just a formality and they won't be back after the first visit. I hope everything works out for your family.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I am so, so deeply sorry for all you and your familya are going trough..

I will be praying for you.

And I have to say that I am really, really sad to see some of the posts in this thread.







This mama needs our LOVE, hugs, prayers and understanding!


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

to you Janis







to your family


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

I am so sorry that this is going on with your daughter. I have not read all the previous posts, but I thought I would reply with my own thoughts. Until ds was born I worked at an outdoor experiential school for girls who'd gotten in trouble. http://www.threesprings.com/newdomin...nia/index.html It was the most challenging and rewarding thing that I've done. It was not tough love, or a boot camp, but a safe place for girls to talk about their feelings and insecurities. I would not recommend a boot camp or tough love place...I don't believe in that. I think kids like your daughter need love, support, and people who can be objective yet show her care and guide her in the right direction. Every kid is different imo a lot of boot camp type places or detentions view all kids the same, or as rebels and don't see the person and the feelings underneath all of the behavior.
I think sending your daughter somewhere should be a last resort, but sometimes it really is the best choice for her to gain confidence, self-discipline, and self-respect. PM me if you would like more information. I understand that this is a heartbreaking situation for you. Kids make their own decisions.... it does NOT make you a bad parent.

Ronna


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

No word yet from youth services or DCFS. We go in today at 2:00 to meet with a therapist at youth services.

I'm calling the same residential program that Caitelin was in to see if we can get an intake appointment. It's very close so we can visit daily if she wants to see us. It is a very intensive program and the same therapist we had for Caite and Marrissa is still there. She is awesome and was so helpful with the girls.

Marrissa had bipolar disorder. She was also molested when she was 11 by her best friends uncle. She had a boy she liked at 14-15 years. We found out right before her death that not only was he abusive to her, his older brother held her down and he raped her.

Caitelin's difficulties were her grief over losing Riss. Her focus was on being with her again and we nearly lost her twice before she came to terms with Rissy's death.

Chloe has been in therapy since Rissy died. But she won't talk about Riss. She won't discuss her at all. Not with us, not with the therapist. She says if she believes Riss never existed it won't hurt. That is all she will say about it. I know she is hurting and will continue to hurt until she deals with this loss. We've been rather passive in our approach and hoping some day in therapy, she would let go. Not happening.

When I said tough love I meant being more proactive and in a way, forcing the issue before she implodes completely.

She's on two meds. Cymbalta for depression, Remeron for anxiety. After doing more research last night, we want her off the remeron ASAP. I've got a call into our doctor to see about weaning her off.

Meds can be risky. I believe one of the meds Riss was on proved lethal for her and countless others. But I also know what the right meds can do. Caite is healthy and happy. I'm not swinging back and forth on the bipolar crazy train. I have normal emotions now.

I do so appreciate the support and kind words. It's so easy as a parent to bash yourself for every misdeed, real or imagined, large or small. And when you lose a child to suicide, you believe you failed. We keep our kids safe, protect them. We don't let them kill themselves. Guilt, selfdoubt become your constant companion. Always lurking there in the background making yo usecond guess yourself.

I did speak with a family friend last night who is also a police officer. He told me to get a copy of the report so that I have backup on how belligerant she was acting. He says with the screaming, cussing, and kicking she is lucky she didn't get tasered. I'm glad the police just spoke calmly and rationaly with her. Even though she was far from rational herself.

I've got a ton of calls to make so I better get busy.

Thank you again mamas!

Janis


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I'm glad to hear you didn't mean a touch love place or a troubled teen bootcamp place. I watched the long-term damage they did to to kids I knew (I was in high school in the 80s, the apex of the residential treatment - tough love movement).

I also agree that, if the residential threapy program doesn't work, having her stay with nearby friends or relatives for a while is a good option - combined, of coruse, with therapy that includes you, your dh, and her.

I am sorry you are going through all this


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## crazyeight (Mar 29, 2006)

With the past experience in your life (and hers) you know much more than me. I just wanted to give







s. I see that you have 6 (is that right?) other children. You have your hands full without having these thoughts. Trust your mommy instinct. And its *OK* to protect the other SIX from one even if it means some lonely nights for all of you.

Good luck, and much love and hope.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
Chloe has been in therapy since Rissy died. But she won't talk about Riss. She won't discuss her at all. Not with us, not with the therapist. She says if she believes Riss never existed it won't hurt. That is all she will say about it. I know she is hurting and will continue to hurt until she deals with this loss. We've been rather passive in our approach and hoping some day in therapy, she would let go. Not happening.

When I said tough love I meant being more proactive and in a way, forcing the issue before she implodes completely.

Janis, I can't even imagine how you're feeling. I just wanted, especially after reading this, to re-iterate that you find and new counselor with Chloe (not just for Chloe as she has to have a say in who she talks with). From your sig I see Marrisa died in '03 (I can't imagine







). This counselor isn't working for Chloe if it was 3 years ago and she still won't talk about why she's there. It could be a trust issue with that counselor. Maybe just a personality issue. But there really could be someone out there who could click with Chloe and help her heal.

I wouldn't suggest forcing her to talk about losing her sister but I would definitely look into other counselors. 3 years is so short for us in some ways but so long to be in the kind of pain Chloe must be in to act out the way she is.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I think the whole family needs to get in to counseling. If you already had another child to commit suicide then this daughter was definitely affected by it and so were you as the parents. I think that's the best option for everyone involved. She certainly has some kind of problem and something had to make her get this way, kwim. If something isn't done to help her now then it can just send a chain reaction through the other children in the family and you may keep going through this with each of them until something is done.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

I just got off the phone with the inpatient program. It will be two weeks before we can get her in. The intake worker, the same one we have worked with before is callling Chloe's therapist to see what information she can offer. I'm waiting for our family doc to call back about the Remeron.

We've given Chloe the choice of changing counselors but she does not want to change. At this point, I don't believe the choice is hers to make.

We have the option of having her admitted at the hospital psych unit until space opens up for her at the residential program. I'm not sure we want to go that route.

It kills me to see that she is hurting so much and that I am unable to help her. She holds us responsible for Rissy's death. We killed her. She told the police that, she's told us that. But her grief, her sorrow, she will not share.
How do you reach someone who rebuffs you at every move?

If we can get her into this program and get the same therapist as before, I know she will be able to break through to her. Caite had a huge barrier and *C* was able to get through to her. The family therapy sessions with her were wonderful.

Our insurance does not cover family therapy outside of the program so I need to see what we can come up with outside of the program. We can't do the grief program we did before.

My sis that works for DCFS is getting a packet of info together for us. Maybe something in there will be what we need.

Janis


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy68*
I think the whole family needs to get in to counseling. If you already had another child to commit suicide then this daughter was definitely affected by it and so were you as the parents. I think that's the best option for everyone involved. She certainly has some kind of problem and something had to make her get this way, kwim. If something isn't done to help her now then it can just send a chain reaction through the other children in the family and you may keep going through this with each of them until something is done.

The OP has said a few times that they did family counselling long term, already. Are you saying they should do it again?


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *papayapetunia*
I'm not going to lie. I think it's terrible that you told them to keep her. I know your rationale may be that "she's a danger to herself and others," but chances are, she didn't like spending the night wherever she spent the night and will respond well to the threat of having the cops called on her again.

She could have PTSD or any number of psychological problems because of her sister's death. She could also have genetic psychological problems, if that is what her sister had. Add abandonment to that, and who knows what will happen to her?

You should go pick her up right now. Is this not an AP site? Is there some age when AP theories are no longer applicable? She's still a child.

I understand how it may look terrible, but as an AP momma who works with children like the one described, the choice they made may not only have been the best choice, but it may have been the ONLY choice they had.

Yes, they are AP - how AP is it to allow an older sibling to be violent in the household? To physically assault her father and if she hasn't already, continue that physical violence on to the other children? For younger siblings to watch this sort of violence - it's no different then watching daddy beat up mommy - it's traumatizing.
The girl was out of control - she was a danger to herself and to others. By having her returned to the home quickly, most likely in the same mental state as when she left, they would have been exposing the other children to abuse and endangering this daughter. What would have happened if she'd come home and run out of the home and gotten killed? Or if she decided to commit suicide?

Trust me, as un-AP as having her remain there may seem to an outsider, it was almost undoubtedly the most responsible and caring thing they could have done for her.

I talk on the phone regularly with parents who are sobbing because this is the first time they've been separated from their child - and they worry that they are doing the right thing. I always tell them that keeping their child safe is the right thing to do - if you have a child who is beating up siblings, severe self mutilating, suicidal, homicidal, out of control - you need to consider the other children in the home and YOUR ability to keep everyone safe.
You need to know your limits - can you really stay awake 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and keep your eyes on them constantly? Can you be that hyper vigiliant to keep them safe and keep others safe from them? And for HOW LONG? Can you do it for days, weeks, months... years? How long before YOU need an anti-depressant or even inpatient psychiatric care? If you falter, for even a second, your mentally ill child may kill another one of your children - s/he may run in front of traffic and get killed - may take a knife from the kitchen or break a window and cut their own throat - or hang him/herself - or overdose or take pills or chemicals or anything. A self destructive child can be amazingly creative. One who is out of control can rage for days, even weeks - wearing out any caretaker before collapsing into a deep sleep - or even a coma. You'd be surprised - even in a controlled environment with a trained staff team monitoring these children, things happen - they are able to hurt each other, themselves and even attempt suicide. I can't imagine just one or two people trying to control that in a house.

Trust me, this is a horrible situation and only this family knows what is best for all the members - only they truly know what they are going through and only they can judge what is needed.


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## lauraheartslittle1 (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I'm glad to hear you didn't mean a touch love place or a troubled teen bootcamp place. I watched the long-term damage they did to to kids I knew (I was in high school in the 80s, the apex of the residential treatment - tough love movement).

I also agree that, if the residential threapy program doesn't work, having her stay with nearby friends or relatives for a while is a good option - combined, of coruse, with therapy that includes you, your dh, and her.

I am sorry you are going through all this

Ditto about the tough love thing. Several of the centers in this area have been under investigation because of tactics used there and harm to residents. *shudders*

The facility that you described sounds as though it could be helpful. If nothing else but to keep her safe in the meanwhile. Here's hoping that she will be more receptive to treatment/help that they try to offer her.

Many







s to you all.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
The OP has said a few times that they did family counselling long term, already. Are you saying they should do it again?

Yes

It's pretty clear from the posts the OP has made that whatever counseling they have had hasn't resulted in resolution of the issues that the family has.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:

Yes

It's pretty clear from the posts the OP has made that whatever counseling they have had hasn't resulted in resolution of the issues that the family has.
And we are looking into our options on that.

Please don't think that we have ignored the issues. We have been through this program, that program, this counselor, that one, family, individual, behavior, DBT, you name it, we've probably tried it.

Our medical bills are between 23-25k a year, out of pocket. The majority of which has been spent on treatment, counseling etc. We are NOT taking any of this lightly. We have been very proactive in trying to find help. So far, nothing has helped Chloe. Caite, Jimmy and Boo have all benefited from the things we have done.

Chloe is a tough nut to crack, so to speak. Doesn't mean we are throwing in the towel. Just means we keep trying, looking for solutions, trying to help.

Janis


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

You have my respect and profound wish that your daughter is able to find some internal peace.

Mental illness in children is a tough and heartbreaking thing. It isn't great in adults, either, but it seems especially cruel in younger people.

Hang in there and don't beat yourself up.


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## folaboye (May 21, 2004)

I agreed with the others with the advise given to you.

I'm sorry and I'm sending you hope and peace and Big














to you and your family.

I hope everything will be solve.


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

I agree that her anger needs to be confronted head on. She may not be able to fully let out her anger with you yet since she blames you. There is someone out there who she can confide in and trust to let it all out before she can come around, gain perspective and talk to you. Sometimes having a physical release for her feelings can be a good catalyst to expressing them verbally (exercise, building something, tearing something down, etc). You are in my thoughts and prayers. You are doing everything you can.... that is truly admirable especially when someone you love so much treats you so poorly. Good for you for seeing past her behavior and trying to understand her feelings and calls for help. I know it is hard to not beat yourself up, but kids make bad decisions sometimes, they are their own people, you are doing the best you can.

Ronna


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

First of all I am very sorry about your daughter and your whole family. I hope she can get to the point where she can come to terms with herself and her life. I'm sure you're a good, decent mother who wants what's best for her and everyone in your family. I have no advice for you on that issue except to be kind and compassionate, which it sounds like you are doing.

The only advice I do have for you is to please be careful about what is posted on the internet, especially with your giving specific details and using real names. If DCFS did want to make trouble for your family, your posting here could very well be used against you. I know you're a good parent, but DCFS has torn families apart based on much less problems than what you're describing. I am sure that your daughter's problems have nothing to do with you, but DCFS could easily spin it that way.

Just some well-meaning advice from someone who has had run-ins with the authorities.


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## elsasmommy (Mar 24, 2005)

I agree that your whole family needs to be in intensive therapy. Something is obviously very wrong. I am not saying it's your fault that your DD committed suicide, but you need to be in therapy to find out why your family system is dysfunctional and what you personally can do to fix it. Are you married? If so, your husband needs to be in therapy as well. Family therapy that focuses only on the "problem child" is not good. Since two of your children have had serious problems, there is something bigger going on here. Everyone needs to figure out their role in the dysfunction and take the steps to fix it.

And dragging your dd up the stairs is a bad idea. If you are trying to restrain her, you need training from mental health professionals in how to do it without physically hurting her. Otherwise, you need to let her run off. If she is getting injured because you're trying to stop her, it's only going to escalate. You probably can't physically stop a teenager anyway.

I agree that I can't see that your dd needs tough love. It sounds like she needs help, not blame, while she is grieving. I agree that she needs acceptable limits, though. You need help in establishing and enforcing them.


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## sleet76 (Jun 2, 2004)

I have nothing to offer except my support. I think it sounds like you are doing a fantastic job under extremely difficult circumstances.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:

I agree that your whole family needs to be in intensive therapy. Something is obviously very wrong. I am not saying it's your fault that your DD committed suicide, but you need to be in therapy to find out why your family system is dysfunctional and what you personally can do to fix it. Are you married? If so, your husband needs to be in therapy as well. Family therapy that focuses only on the "problem child" is not good. Since two of your children have had serious problems, there is something bigger going on here. Everyone needs to figure out their role in the dysfunction and take the steps to fix it.

And dragging your dd up the stairs is a bad idea. If you are trying to restrain her, you need training from mental health professionals in how to do it without physically hurting her. Otherwise, you need to let her run off. If she is getting injured because you're trying to stop her, it's only going to escalate. You probably can't physically stop a teenager anyway.

I agree that I can't see that your dd needs tough love. It sounds like she needs help, not blame, while she is grieving. I agree that she needs acceptable limits, though. You need help in establishing and enforcing them.
My daughter that took her own life had bipolar. It's a mental illness, not a cuase of dysfunction. My 17 year old also has bipolar. Again, a mental illness, not a cause of dysfunction.

We've done family therapy, dh included. It was not problem child based therapy. It was solutions and plans for the whole family therapy.

We have been taught proper restraint procedures. We had to learn them with our late dd because in her swings/rages she could lethaly escalate and harm herself. We were only carrying her inside to try and reduce the show to the neighborhood. She was screaming abuse as we tried calmly to talk to her. And no, we aren't going to let her run off when she is threatening to leave and harm herself. We did what we have been taught to do.

I agree she needs help. Have I not said that over and over? I don't blame her for her grief. But I can be and am angry at her physical lashing out. This is not the first time. No parent should have to duck blows from an out of control child.

We have acceptable rules and limits in place. Also have reasonable consequences for them. But to allow one child to run roughshod over the family is NOT reasonable nor healthy.

At this point the plan is to put her into an intensive residential treatment program. One that has individual, group and family therapy. As a part of this program we are also going to be taking a parenting class. One we've taken before, several times. But maybe we can glean something new from it.

Also we will be removing one of the medications she is on. The side effects that we are seeing include: apathy, depression,twitching, agitation, anxiety, delusions, depersonalization, coordination abnormalaties, hallucinations, manic reaction, hostility, emotional lability, euphoria and a paranoid reaction. We see that some of her actions in the last few months are from the medication. I've also learned it is not to be given to anyone under the age of 18.

Today at the meeting, she was calm, agreeable and willing to work with us instead of against us. Given that this is NOT the first time we have gone this route with her in the last few months, I don't forsee any changes until we get her off the Remeron and into treatment.

It's not easy to see everything we have done and continue to do for our family. To call it dysfunctional is, IMO, a bit insulting. Again, mental illness does not equal a dyfunctional family. It means ill family members who need the proper help. We are doing all we can to get that.

Janis


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Hugs mama. You're doing everything you can. Just be strong for your family, and remember, this too shall pass.


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

I have read the whole thread.
I applaud you for what you are doing for your daughter.
Mental illness is so tough. It doesn't mean the whole family is dysfunctional. Just some MI is more genetically disposed in some of our family members as opposed to others


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I can not even imagine how stressful this situation must be for you and your family. Wishing strength and peace to all family members.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
We see that some of her actions in the last few months are from the medication. I've also learned it is not to be given to anyone under the age of 18.

My sister and I both had adverse reactions to anti-depressants in our teens. Scary stuff. It can change a teen's entire personality.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Penelope*

I wonder if your dd is reliving the hurt of your older dd's death, as she approaches the age at which her sister began to have such terrible difficulty.

Good luck, mama, you and your dd and your whole family are in my prayers.

Oh God Janis. I can't believe this.

My stepmother was on anti depressants and it totally tripped her OUT. It was BAD. Fantasies, thinking people were out to get her... her whole world became a scary, psycho place.

I hope that the systems you have put into place this time will help your daughter. I would love to see your family happy again.


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Janis, you and your family are in my thoughts during this trying time.

For what it's worth, you sound to be doing everything a caring, loving mom could be doing to help her daughter.


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## june'smom (Nov 8, 2003)

Your family will be in my prayers. I can't imagine what you are going through. For what it's worth, it sounds like you are doing a great job acting on this stuff.

And for those of you calling mental illness dysfunction, you need to do a little research. It is not her fault that it runs in the family. It isn't that she is doing something drastically wrong. You should hope that none of your children have it, it is unbelievabley difficult.

Louise


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *june'smom*
Your family will be in my prayers. I can't imagine what you are going through.

Good vibes going out to you mama, from me as well.







:


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Janis- I don't know what I can add to all that has already been said.

My only other thought was-- do you have a spiritual faith that you can turn toward at this horribly difficult time? It sounds from all that you have said that you have tried and will continue to try adjusting therapy situations and meds, etc. So- a strong faith life was my only thought on how *I* might be able to survive what you are going through.

I am so sorry for the loss of your daughter, and for all of the havoc mental illness is wreaking on your family.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

For those of you who are being so critical...you CLEARLY have no concept of what mental illness can do to a family. It has NOTHING to do with dysfunction and everything to do with genetics. Please, think before you type.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:

do you have a spiritual faith that you can turn toward
No. I'm not one for faith. I'm more of an agnostic.

But I do have my writing and a few good friends I can turn to. One of them lost her son a few months after we lost Rissy. Her daughter went off the deep end for a bit so she gets a lot of what we are going through.

Few people understand how damaging an MI can be on a family, let alone to an individual. I don't think our extended families got it until Marrissa died. Nobody though it was that big of a deal, thought she was just being a pain or that we were exagerrating the troubles. They all have their "if only's" to deal with now.

I don't think Chloe has BP, but I do see some traits in her. Some of it could be from the remeron though. In talking with her doctor, he wants her to have a full psych eval done. Just have to see if the insurance will cover the guy we want her to see. We have an exception so he can see Caite. Not sure if we can get one for Chloe too. Hopefully.

She's been very quiet. She picked up a horrid case of stomach flu, so has mostly been sleeping or being sick. She was up for a bit last night, but didn't say much. Of course, if I was as ill as she, I wouldn't either.

I won't know more until Monday as far as the program or anything else.

Thank you very much for the support and well wishes!

Janis


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

Janis - I'm thinking of you and your family. I've followed your blog for several months. My dh thinks that weeping over a stranger's blog is just borrowing trouble. But he doesn't understand that MDC/internet community *is* real community.

Your family has been through so much already. I hope that you can find the help that your family needs!


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## folaboye (May 21, 2004)

Sending you and your family huge























be unto you and family


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Janis my heart goes out to you.








A day late and a dollar short I couldn't read this whole thread and
not offer my full support to your family.
I have bipolar and my teen years we a very hard time to live threw.
I wasn't diagnosed until I was 20 and I sought out help for myself.
My parents weren't equip to offer me any help. Nobody talked to
me about my moods or why I would spend countless hours just laying
in bed crying.

I wish my parents (who I love with all my heart don't get me wrong)
were more like you. Actively searching for help. I can feel all the love
and the pain in your replies. I know your doing all you can and your
looking and searching for more.

Your a strong and loving Mom. Thank you for being that example to me.

OT-to those who have replied that don't have either life experience as
a Mom to a teen with issues, or life experience, or you don't have the
time to read the whole thread, and the replies from the OP....then just
don't reply at all.
Same for those who have anything (even if you feel your 100% correct
and feel your coming from a loving place) negative to say...keep that to
yourself as well. During times like these in a family it's the last thing this
family needs.
Reading threw this thread made me feel sad, not only for the family, Mom,
Daughter, going threw such a hard time, but for the replies that just were
totally lacking in any empathy for this family.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
No. I'm not one for faith. I'm more of an agnostic.

But I do have my writing and a few good friends I can turn to. One of them lost her son a few months after we lost Rissy. Her daughter went off the deep end for a bit so she gets a lot of what we are going through.

Few people understand how damaging an MI can be on a family, let alone to an individual. I don't think our extended families got it until Marrissa died. Nobody though it was that big of a deal, thought she was just being a pain or that we were exagerrating the troubles. They all have their "if only's" to deal with now.

I don't think Chloe has BP, but I do see some traits in her. Some of it could be from the remeron though. In talking with her doctor, he wants her to have a full psych eval done. Just have to see if the insurance will cover the guy we want her to see. We have an exception so he can see Caite. Not sure if we can get one for Chloe too. Hopefully.

She's been very quiet. She picked up a horrid case of stomach flu, so has mostly been sleeping or being sick. She was up for a bit last night, but didn't say much. Of course, if I was as ill as she, I wouldn't either.

I won't know more until Monday as far as the program or anything else.

Thank you very much for the support and well wishes!

Janis

Don't you just want to snuggle up with her while she's sick and think about when she was little and still in your arms. I find I have a strong desire to do this when my dd and I are having problems.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:

Don't you just want to snuggle up with her while she's sick and think about when she was little and still in your arms. I find I have a strong desire to do this when my dd and I are having problems.
Yes... If only she would let me... She won't even look at us most of the time let alone touch her....

I talked with the DCFS worker yesterday. He just needs to talk to one more person and then says the case should be closed, allegations unfounded. That is a huge relief. He has the police report, the social worker's report and has spoken to Chloe, DH and myself.

Chloe wasn't too calm last night. Back on the rampage but we tuned it out. Stated the way the things are and then left the room so it didn't turn into a fight. I checked power school again. Her grades have gone from A's to D's and F's. As have Caite's from all the sluffing. We told them both that until the grades come up to passing, their nights out will stop. As will phone time. Caite was cool with it, understood the reasoning behind it. Chloe on the other hand, flipped out.

Caite told us what Chloe has been doing while sluffing. Not good. And if we bring it up, she will blow a gasket. But it does need to be addressed. How and when is another subject.

I swear, I am at my wit's end. I am going to get a sitter for the twins on Thursday and I am leaving for the day. I'm seriously in need of some down time.

I love my kids - but dang - some days I just don't know what to do...

Janis


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
I swear, I am at my wit's end. I am going to get a sitter for the twins on Thursday and I am leaving for the day. I'm seriously in need of some down time.

I love my kids - but dang - some days I just don't know what to do...

Janis

Reading this made me feel really good. As Mama's sometimes we tend
to leave our well being to last. It's in everybodies best interest for you
to have some down time. Take care. Give into your body and do what
it tells you. Try to relax.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

mama, you are hanging in far better than I could, you are one very strong woman.


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## Greenie (Sep 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000*
OT-to those who have replied that don't have either life experience as a Mom to a teen with issues, or life experience, or you don't have the time to read the whole thread, and the replies from the OP....then just
don't reply at all.
Same for those who have anything (even if you feel your 100% correct
and feel your coming from a loving place) negative to say...keep that to
yourself as well. During times like these in a family it's the last thing this
family needs.
Reading threw this thread made me feel sad, not only for the family, Mom,
Daughter, going threw such a hard time, but for the replies that just were
totally lacking in any empathy for this family.


----------



## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

Moving this to teens and preteens








Hoping you get more replies there as well


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

This has already been moved once.









I think it should be retitled "The Thread That Cannot Stay Put."

At least I still have a sense of humor!

Janis


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Janis







I'm so sorry you're going through such a difficult time. You sound like an AWESOME MAMA!!!!
No one knows what you're going through, except you.....Please take gentle care of yourself and know that you're in my thoughts/prayers


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000*
OT-to those who have replied that don't have either life experience asa Mom to a teen with issues, or life experience, or you don't have the time to read the whole thread, and the replies from the OP....then just don't reply at all.
Same for those who have anything (even if you feel your 100% correct and feel your coming from a loving place) negative to say...keep that to yourself as well. During times like these in a family it's the last thing this family needs.
Reading threw this thread made me feel sad, not only for the family, Mom, Daughter, going threw such a hard time, but for the replies that just weretotally lacking in any empathy for this family.

















and


















To steal a quote:

God and Goddess grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


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## Jessica36 (Oct 14, 2003)

Just wanted to see how you all were doing honey.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Well..... Hmmm....

She's defiant as hell right now. She wanted her bangs cut, I told her I'd do it or make an appointment. Instead she went to school the next day and cut them herself. (her hair was all one length and long) The next day she asked if she could color her hair. Told her no, but that we have a highlight kit we bought for her and we could use it this weekend. She came home from school yesterday with her hair colored. Her friend did it for her at lunch in the girl's bathroom.

She's grounded from the phone, caught her with my cell late at night. Way past phone hours.

Demands that she be allowed to take a babysitting job for a single dad, a brother of someone she knows from school, or so she says. We don't know him at all, she doesn't know him although he is a "friend" on her myspace. All his friends are teen girls and he is 26. Seems very fishy to us.... She doesn't even know his last name.

Refuses to go to therapy. Says she will not go into treatment. Says as soon as she hits 16, she is going to go into a state run group home so she can get away from us.

As long as she gets to do what she wants, when she wants she is content. Hold her to the house rules and things get ugly.

Dh's grandfather passed away yesterday. A very sweet man, 92 years old. Her first response? Don't expect mt to go to the funeral or babysit the twins so you can go. Grandpa was a tender soul, very loving and giving. When Rissy passed, he gave us a check for $1000 to help with expenses. This generosity from a man living on social security and his limited savings...

I know some of her issues are normal teen antics, but other things just blow me away....

She says we don't love her, have never been there for her... This from my baby who was so tiny at bitrh, she slept on my chest I was so afraid for her. She had no sucking reflex so dh and I fed her round the clock with a spoon or eyedropper. Dh at times holding her mouth open as I expressed milk into her mouth. She nursed the longest, 2 years and four months to the day. Slept with us until she was well past three. Horrid colic, high needs, so I wore her day and night, often walking the neighborhood with her strapped to me at all hours. It was not uncommon to see me at 2, 3, 4, 5 am walking with her trying to sooth her so she would sleep. We've always tried to be there for her, for all our kids... But all she sees is her own vision of how life was/is. (normal teen thing, I know)

We've had to correct/redirect her so many times lately for making inappropraite/sexual comments/conversations. More times than I can count. I'm sorry, but 15 year old girls do not need to be discussing oral sex at the dinner table in front of younger siblings. She taught Livia to call people a douchebag and thinks it is a riot. That's one of the tamer things she has taught the twins. I'm fine with her teaching them sign language, but this? Not so fine.

It's so dang hard... Sometimes I feel like the biggest failure.... All I ever wanted was to be a wife and a mother. I'm not even doing a good job at it... One kid married at 18, in such a hurry to grow up, baby soon after, one took her own life, another who became a cutter and suicidal after Rissy's death and now Chloe. I couldn't keep Riss alive, what makes me think I can do anything else right? *sigh*

Some days I feel like leaving so that I don't screw the kids up anymore than they already are....

Janis


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *papayapetunia*
AP is looking into sending a 15-year-old to a tough-love bootcamp? Come on.

I've done extensive work with teenagers and in my experience, I have found that they act out for a reason. This could be family death, divorce, adoption, rape, molestation, etc. Good parents look to local therapy options to help their troubled teenagers.

OP, if you're really thinking about a tough-love option like bootcamp, I urge you to first read the book Help at Any Cost: How the Troubled-Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids, by Maia Szalavitz. It details a lot of problems with the industry.

I agree with you to a point. I think that a local residential counseling is a good option. I don't think that bringing her home is a good idea.

Not only is she in obvious turmoil, she has a sister who committed suicide. Perhaps this is what the OP's daughter is considering. Her behavior is beyond what her parents are equipped to deal with. If they brought her home, and something happened, they would be blamed.

I SO would have left her there. It would have killed me, but, since this is not new to this family, they absolutely did the right thing by leaving her there.

I live one mile from the Adobe children's prison. Every Saturday is visiting day. We drive past it, and my daughter looks at the HUGE line of cars waiting to leave the parking lot. One day, she said, "Those are all nice cars. I would have thought the parent's of kids in prison would all drive old beaters" Then she asked me "If they have enough money to buy those cars, why didn't they spend the money on counseling for the kids before it got to this point?" I wonder the same thing some days.

This Mom is asking us what to do next. I wish I knew. My ex stepdaughter had some VERY serious problems....just like this girl is having. She was cutting herself, she was collecting blogs from men who planned to commit suicide. She would read books about suicide. She loved Kurt Cobain. All these things were HUGE red flags to me....I thought it was blindingly obvious. It was apparently not obvious to her parents.

I am so sorry for the OP. This is not what she look forward to when we are planning our families. I have a SUPER easy kid. I know I am fortunate. I wish the answers for this Mom were simple.

I will keep them in my prayers.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Janis-
I'm wondering if Chloe has had a REALLY good physical with blood work lately?

Is it possible that there is some PHYSICAL problem, that is causing or exacerbating these outbursts?

One possibility- rages are included in the symptom list of thyroid issues (both hypo, and hyper), and fluctuating thyroid levels can look like depression or bipolar disorder.

Quote:

The "silent" signs of thyroid crisis can include profound behavioral changes, neurological problems, sleep and memory disturbances, dementia, psychoses, depression, lethargy or loss of initiative, increased cholesterol levels, and according to the Thyroid Foundation of Canada, "general intellectual deterioration."
In addition, violent and uncharacteristic episodes of rage are reported with enough frequency that those suffering from one thyroid disorder, "Grave's disease," refer to this disturbing symptom as "Grave's rage."
http://thyroid.about.com/blquickthyroidfacts.htm
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/basics_s...rchecklist.htm
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/hypothyr.../checklist.htm

I realize that these blurbs refer to the rages primarily in relation to HYPERthyroidism, but I also know people who are HYPOthyroidic, and have problems with it as well. I've also heard that the rages are worse as your thyroid function begins to go, and the levels are fluctuating.

Hypoglycemia has also been associated with rages.

Magnesium deficiency can also exacerbate and/or result in stress and rages.

Those are just 3 physical problems that *I* know of, from dealing with people who have those issues, and reading up on them. There are potentially numerous others.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Quote:

I live one mile from the Adobe children's prison.
Is this the one in Arizona? If so, I know a couple of mom's that lost their children there. Lost, as in they took their own lifes shortly after entering the facility.

The place I am thinking of is under investigation on numerous levels and in dire need of reform.

*D's* mom had no choice about her son going there. He was sent by the courts. A struggling kid and instead of help, he was in a lockdown facility. He begged the judge not to send him, told the court that if he went there he would be dead within 24 hours.

He was wrong on his time frame. He was found hanging in his room, barely alive. Three days later he was removed from life support.

He was under court ordered suicide watch. Adobe put him in his room/cell and didn't find him till late the next morning. Some suicide watch.

So, no, we would never use anything like Adobe. The palce we have in mind is really good, one of the best in the intermountain region. I've toured and visited enough times, know most of the staff by name. I feel 100% comfortable about using them again if we decide to go that route.

Janis


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## Jessica36 (Oct 14, 2003)

First off you are a good mom, you are doing what you can to help your kids. One thing I am sure you say all the time, just remind her that no matter what she does you will always love her (btw my sister has 2 teenagers and i wasn't exactly a princess myself IYKWIM).

Have you looked into allergies? Sometimes allergies to common things (ie dairy, soy, corn, etc) can manifest in defience and depression, seriously just a thought, though I am sure you have done all of this.

Hugs sweetie!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
Is this the one in Arizona? If so, I know a couple of mom's that lost their children there. Lost, as in they took their own lifes shortly after entering the facility.

Yes, it is. I hadn't heard any of this.

Quote:

So, no, we would never use anything like Adobe. The palce we have in mind is really good, one of the best in the intermountain region. I've toured and visited enough times, know most of the staff by name. I feel 100% comfortable about using them again if we decide to go that route.
I didn't know you had a choice. I was under the impression that once it got to that point it was out of their parents hands.

I saw a 20/20 show on youth prisons a few years ago. I saw an EIGHT year old boy there. He had set many fires. He was caught, (had some kind of consequence) but continued to set fires. Got caught again, the put him in a group home, and he set IT on fire, so they put him in Adobe. You feel bad, because you know he doesn't just LIKE fire.... there must be some reason for this....right? I just wish these things were easy.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
Says as soon as she hits 16, she is going to go into a state run group home so she can get away from us.

Janis

I dont think she understands what living in a group home is like. She doesnt know how good she has it til she winds up in one. I'm so sorry you're going through this mama....You sound like you've done everything right......her behavior is NOT from something you did or didnt do...Please know that. It sounds like a combination from a chemical imbalance and the death of her sibling. She also probably doesnt like "sharing" your attention with the younger ones. Please know you're in my prayers/thoughts and I think you're an awesome mama!!


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

My girls are still quite young (5 and 7) but I so much fear being where you are when they are older b/c they are such intense little people and we have dealt with depression in at least my older one already. I, like you, had a difficult time as a teen and young adult and I do know that tendencies toward depression, suicide, eating disorders and all of that stuff run in families. Your comment about living in fear of losing another child brought tears to my eyes. That is my greatest fear as well although I have not lost a child. I lost my twin to a drug overdose when we had just turned 20 and I struggled with suicidal tendencies and a whole host of problems from the time I was a child until my early 20s.

I remember the major turning point for me was realizing that I was manipulating people and I didn't want to hold that power over them anymore. I remember driving to the Golden Gate bridge having told a friend that I was going to jump off and intending to do so. On the way there I was listening to Tori Amos - a song with the lyrics, "know the power that you hold with that tear in your hand" or something like that and I realized that I was holding something (my life) over the people who loved me. I was in extreme emotional pain, but if I had reason to believe that I would be able to truly heal, even then I wouldn't have wanted to die. I just didn't want to hurt anymore. By the time I got there, I had decided not to jump. Unfortunately my friend had called the police and I was arrested and taken to a psych hospital anyways since they weren't buying into my change of heart! I can't say that I was instantly fine from then on, but it was a turning point in begining the road to recovery -- from an eating disorder as well as depression.

I do believe that sometimes there is so little that we can do as parents or as anyone other than the person who is suffering that way to help the person get better. You can sign her up for counseling, hospitalize her or whatever, but if she isn't ready to do it, it may well not work... yet. My mother said that she couldn't watch me 24/7. I could drown myself in the toilet while in the bathroom. It was good for me to have that power passed back to myself. It was good to know that, while other people cared a lot about what happened to me, I was going to have to be responsible for my choices, for whether I made it or not.

I hope that your daughter can come to accept that responsibility for her own fate sooner rather than later. Maybe this sounds non-AP too, but I believe that I would try my hardest, if I were in your shoes, to step back and not try so hard. Don't argue with her about her hair - if she wants to cut it and dye it purple, oh well. Unless she is presenting an immediate danger to herself or others, don't let her manipulate your emotions. I don't think that she aware of what she is doing (b/c I've been that child and I don't think that I was intentionally toying with people's feelings), but she is pushing your buttons b/c she knows that they are there. She knows that you care. If you didn't you wouldn't be trying so hard.

I'd tell her that -- 'I'm doing all of this b/c I love you so much and I am terrified of losing you. No matter what you do, I love more than I love myself, but I want you to take responsibility for where you are choosing to go with your life b/c I can't do it for you no matter how much I wish I could. I am here for you -- whatever you need. I want to help you but I will give you space.'


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

JanisB, you sound like an awesome and strong mama.
I agree with pp's that sending her to live with family might be a good idea. If not plausible, are there programs or someway to create a specific support system just for her? responsible, cool adults that would spend one-on-one time with her?

When I was a teenager and dealing with the deaths in my family, my mom and dad found five adult women who would spend time with me almost every day. They would answer my questions honestly or help me find the answers....including sex, drugs and alcohol.
Because of their help and wisdom, I never drank and never did drugs, with six kids, I obviously did the other







. I have known my dh for 22 years, now, so, I guess I can say I wasn't promiscuous(sp?).

I am still in contact with some of those women, two died, but three are still around. I still ask their advice.

My mom and dad knew they were grieving and could not give us the attention we needed, but they did find others and I am grateful for that.

Adult role models/support do not always need to be therapists or family. My parents were real careful in choosing women they knew had the same morals/philosophies and would not lead their teenagers towards behaviour that could harm us, kwim?

And, yes, we all attended therapy, family and solo.
IMO, having other adults who loved and cared about me and that I could depend upon, made the biggest difference in that period of my life.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

if it makes you feel any better, i posted about some issues here when my dd was 13 (and when i admitted I'd called the police on her at one point when she got violent, boy, did I hear some 'nice' comments too- so I can imagine how this must hurt). anyway, (here's the part that may help) at 19 she is fabulous; kind, empathetic, gentle, loving. Nothing much 'happened' to change her outlook except age & perspective. Keep loving her even as she lashes out. She'll remember how she acted, & how you acted, & forgive the times you screwed up, & love you for the times you still loved her as she screwed up (even if while loving her you take actions she will not appreciate at the time).

good luck. if you haven't been there, because a) you haven't had teenagers yet or b) all yours were angels who never gave you a moment's heartache, well, you just don't know.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN*

Don't argue with her about her hair - if she wants to cut it and dye it purple, oh well.

oh yeah









when mine dyed her hair (blue, not purple- and it turned green







i know there are people here who remember THAT thread







) i had to let it go, just vent here. don't sweat the small stuff, seriously.


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## MissAbbyRosesMamma (Apr 28, 2006)

obviously since my dd is only 7 months i havent been there but her father ACTS like hes 15-doing all the things youve mentioned here.

i just want to say-and i know other people have said it but it cant hurt to repeat it-your doing a fabulous job. obviously if you didnt care you wouldnt be so torn up about it, thats a sign of good parenting! love her and care for ehr and someday itll dawn on her that youve always been there and cared for her and everything that you did is in her best interest. someday shell realize that she had it good with you and i imagine, whether that say is sooner or later, that youll be there to love her still. if you cant help her yourselves, you know enough to send her to someone who can. as for DCFS cooperating with them is all you can do. im sure shes not the first case like this! theyll see through to the truth and will probably offer resources to help with her! good luck and know that you are doing a terrific job!

as for things in the past-they cant be changed but because they were awful doesnt make you an awful parent. dont ever blame yourself. sometimes things are too far out of our control. it doesnt mean you stop caring, it means you come to terms with it, which will be probably the hardest thing you ever do.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Have you tried taking your DD out a couple of afternoons in the week? She sounds a lot like me when I was a teen and I remember wishing my mom would take me to the mall to shop for a matching bra and panty set and to lunch- ANY kind of rite of passage recognizing that I was an adult and making a grown-up connection together. It was too painful for me to ask for and we had a big and busy family like yours. We had no one-on-one time. Instead, we didn't speak to each other - she was afraid of me and my choices.

Just a thought... and I'm sure it would take her some time to warm up...so keep at it???


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

all i can do after reading this is sends hugs to you and your family.

my 15 year old pushed me last night and i was about to post about that, but think i will hold off a bit and process what i have just read.

for what its worth, it seems to me you are doing all you can do. sounds like you have gone through alot and are continuing to struggle for your children. also sounds to me like you are a very good mother. please try to care for yourself while going through all this.








to you,

rach


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## ErikaDP (Jan 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
...if you haven't been there, because a) you haven't had teenagers yet or b) all yours were angels who never gave you a moment's heartache, well, you just don't know.

Hi TigerTail,
I just wanted to comment on the quote above. Although my adult children did not go through any of the problems that JanisB is experiencing with her children, I can assure you that I can relate to her situation very well.
Because we provided a "safe house" for a number of my children's troubled friends, we were able to see first hand how complicated life with teens can and is for many families. I just wanted to mention that there are more than a couple of ways to gain knowledge about trouble teens without having to experience it with your own children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
When I was a teenager and dealing with the deaths in my family, my mom and dad found five adult women who would spend time with me almost every day. They would answer my questions honestly or help me find the answers....including sex, drugs and alcohol...
...My mom and dad knew they were grieving and could not give us the attention we needed, but they did find others and I am grateful for that.

Adult role models/support do not always need to be therapists or family. My parents were real careful in choosing women they knew had the same morals/philosophies and would not lead their teenagers towards behaviour that could harm us, kwim?

This is such an important piece of advice that it bears repeating. And if you are reading this and you have only young children, I would suggest finding these support adults for your children now while they are young.

And for JanisB-








As many people have already said, You sound like a great mom!
My thoughts and prayers are with your family. I hope that very soon, your family finds some peace.

..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
((¸¸.·´ ..·´ Peace, Love & Light!-:¦:-
-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

Take Care,
Erika







:


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)

"I know I asked for advice and help but I will respectfully ask that if you want to add to the guilt I already have, please remain silent. I beat myself up enough. I don't need any help to feel like an even sh*ttier parent."

Janis[/QUOTE]





























I cannot fathom your pain and sadness for lossing your dd and now to have to experience this type of behavior from your other dd must be very scary to you. I think you need to do whats best to keep her alive. I wouldnt recomend foster care, while there are some great foster parents out there, there are also some that are not so great and she has had enough pain in her life. I am sure you will find the right place for her to heal and I hope with that you find some healing yourself.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Hello, Janis B.

I just wanted to tell you that the same thing happened to me with my one and only DD when she was 15.

Only in my case, DCFS and the police believed her.







: DCFS saw me as the villian, the evil one.

I thought at the time that it may be a good thing to get DCFS involved, but I was so wrong.

I do not trust the Police and DCFS to this day.

I went through hell. Our family went through hell. The judge in the court made fun of my DH because he missed a day to get a previously scheduled annual cancer biopsy, and the lawyer who represented my DH sat there and laughed through it. I placed DD with three relatives of mine before they returned her to me because they did not want to deal with her. Then she started sneaking older men into her room at night; the police did not even take a report and told me that I was imagining things, even though I grabbed one and held him for the police; not one thing was done to any of them, and I was still the culprit. Therapy did not help; often I was the only one who would show up for the scheduled sessions, since I never knew where she was. I asked the doctors to examine her for medication, and no one said or did anything. She is now almost 26 years old and she has not improved one bit. My DH said that she was a major disappointment to him. What a waste.

I cry all of the time about it.

My DH and I worked hard to set an excellent example for her in matters of work, money, school, learning, eating, cleaning, and family life but she just wants to do everything her own way and put the blame on me if it does not turn out well. I KNOW that we modeled a happy marriage for her, and she simply does not see it.

My three DSs have so far turned out well. They do not date girls that are like their sister. I have no love for her left.

I hope things work out better for you.







s to you and your family. You are going to need it.


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## ThreeJane (Mar 8, 2003)

No advice (my kidsare too little) but I'm sure you are doing the very best you can.

If you can, try to get a little bit of headspace time. I can be overwhelmed with three relatively well-behaved kids and I still need, need, NEED that little bit of time (usually a few hours on the weekend, riding my dirtbike) just to myself, no one but me n' my mp3 player.


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

i have not read the whole thread but did glance at some responses and your original post... im so sorry your family is going thru this.... we are having some issues w. dd 8.... please keep us posted on the progress made and your other little ones...

i vote for a good therapist... i didnt notice what area you are in but i did see the mention of phoenix... if you are around phx i have a couple ideas for you... PM me if you like..

take care and BIG HUGS to everyone in your home


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## SAHdad (Apr 19, 2006)

Hi there,

First off I'm going to start this out by letting you know that this is a response designed solely to help you with the issues you are having with your daughter. I have several potentially unique areas of insight that might provide you with a better perspective on this situation. I'm going to share some rather personal information with you, and I hope that it is helpful to you, as I don't mind sharing my history or information about my life, as long as it has the potential to benefit someone else.

Now that that is out of the way, My name is Shaun, I'm 25 and a stay at home father, I have a 2 year old daughter named Lethia and another bun on the way. I'm married to a Bi polar wife, who has a rapid cycle from depression to mania. I was also an awful child to my parents.

I did a lot of the things that you are so upset about here. I was always rebelling against authority, no matter what form it took, always in trouble for poor grades, and was grounded much of my teenage years. After awhile grounded became my life, so i began to ignore it and got even wilder. I had my own moral standards, I didn't drink or do drugs, but as far as late night partying, and the sex and rock and roll part yeah i was there.

I'm not telling you this in some lame attempt to say "yeah teenagers are like this get over it" or any such thing, I'm just telling you a little about myself right off the bat so you don't get the wrong impression about me. I'm not some doctor, or psychologist who is going to babble off 5 to 8 syllable names for your daughters conflicting emotions. But I DO understand the aspects of many mental disorders ranging from Bi-polar (or manic depressive syndrome) to borderline personality disorder, that cause reactions like what you are experiencing with Chloe. I also understand the benefits and limitations of both therapy and medication.

Now that said I would like to tell you first off that you need to absolve yourself of the guilt you get, its only human to feel that you are the root cause of your daughters problems, especially when she is screaming that very statement in your face at the top of her lungs. Believe me teens can be very persuasive and affect your psychology in subconscious ways you are not even aware of. You have a very good grasp of what it is like to deal with violently turbulent emotions in the early to mid teenage years, as I have read from your post that this is your 3rd (?) daughter to exhibit behavior like this. I'm more sorry than you could possibly imagine about the Loss of your daughter Rissa. If anything I have to say here helps you in dealing with Chloe and Cait My only regret is that the insight was not offered soon enough to help Rissa.

What you are facing is a downward spiral. In many ways it is made worse by the attached parenting lifestyle you have chosen, but in many other ways this lifestyle may be the only thing you can use to pull your family out of this. You faced hardship with Rissa, and while you did everything you could to help her, she faced severe obstacles that were outside your control; The rape situation; (nothing, and I mean NOTHING is more traumatizing. Very very many families try their best to pull a rape victim back from the brink and fail. I know this personally. My best friend when I was 17 was raped, she lay crying in my arms for 6 hours. Before i could calm her down. She wouldn't tell her parents, swore me to silence, (worst mistake i ever made) As I walked home I kept thinking I should call her parents, but i didn't worry about it and went to bed, got the phone call the next morning, and never stopped blaming myself since.)

When Rissa passed, your other daughters didn't know how to cope with this, they saw the deterioration of someone they had known their whole life up to the point of total self destruction, worse Cait and Chloe were not emotionally nor mentally mature enough to fully comprehend what actually happened. While Cait turned inward, Chloe has turned outward. You have dealt with Cait and you need to continue to do so, keep her supported and motivated. That inward withdrawal is in many ways far far more dangerous than Chloe's actions. (I understand Chloe is disrupting your family and causing you untold amounts of stress, but the outward displays are actually, as crazy as it sounds, far more healthy than turning the depression and anger inward. Down that path can lead to such psychological troubles as you never want to encounter.)

Since I'm trying to focus on understanding Chloe and helping you to understand from a different perspective as well I'll gloss past any more observations on Cait for now. If you find this response at all helpful I'll be glad to try to help you with Cait as well.

Now If I were Chloe here is what I would be thinking (please do not take offense I'm trying to provide insight) First off I see my older sister turn inward, having violent bipolar mood swings that make her seem like a different person sometimes daily, maybe even hourly (depending on the cycle) This is frightening. I'm young (she's 15? so assuming the 3 year time on Rissa's death that puts her at 12 when Rissa died, yet she probably began exhibiting signs of Bi Polar far earlier. Mayne Chloe was 10 when these signs first became apparent?) So My sister is changing, and not in a good way, My other older sister is pulling inward as well but not as much, I'm going to look to my parents. Mom and Dad are supposed to make things better.

I'm watching Rissa grow up, and She's not getting better, she's getting worse. There are fights and violent outbursts. You loose your temper with her she looses her temper with you, you struggle to cope with the recent news that your Daughter has a life long mental condition that is going to make her unstable and cycling that can only partially be treated by medications and therapy. Your daughter, going through a state of denial insisting that nothing Is wrong, and in her own frustration to see what is bothering her turns her anger on you, making you the target.

Ok so now I'm Chloe, age 12, I'm seeing all this go on with you and Rissa, I'm wondering why you are not making things better. Simple solutions that are in my mind that I believe should work, I either don't see you doing or don't understand that you have already tried. I see Rissa blaming these feelings on her family, or on her life in general (aka her whole environment including her family friends school, the works) and all the while I'm beginning to get this feeling inside that this is not right, something is wrong. Attachment parenting has taught me that Mom and dad can hold me close and make me feel better, so why is Rissa not feeling better?

Now when Rissa dies its such a shock, all these feelings come home with such sudden force that there is no way to express it. I'm hurt tangled and lost at once without any sense of direction, no where to turn, I have seen that Mom and Dad cant fix everything, in the most graphic way my mind can conceive at this age. This doesn't actually start to affect my behavior for several months to a year. This is because I have locked away all this and am trying very hard to get back to "normal" forget everything that has happened, forget even to the extent that Rissa never existed, because it is the problem with Rissa that has shattered the whole world I saw and held dear from Birth until now.

Now is where Cait comes in. The problems with Cait begin to surface, they are similar enough to the problems with Rissa that this has me (Chloe) paranoid by now. I see you struggling with this daughter too, and I cant help but think, "Am I next?" She gets sent to In patient, for all intents and purposes exiled from the house for 7 months (over half a year is a LONG time for a 13-14 year old). This is associated with the death of Rissa, (Death being an image of being sent away, as Cait is now gone from the house for 7 months).

Now is when I start to change, deep inside I make a decision, this is NOT going to happen to me, I wont let it, so I consciously begin acting out, getting more aggressive. (Aggression not happiness is the actual polar opposite of depression. This is a widely mis interpreted fact. Aggression stimulates your adrenal system, gives you a rush of power and energy, Depression saps your energy and wears you down. Anger is far more easy to attain than a state of Euphoria) I begin to turn violently away from my parents, after all what good are they? (again please understand I'm walking through the psychological development of a growing child who has seen some very traumatic things) They were supposed to fix my sister and now she's dead( right here is where she gets the feeling that you "killed" her), and they were supposed to fix my other sister and they sent her away.

Now is the time when Cait comes back, she's happier well adjusted, Chloe wont believe it though, she's watching skeptically for any seeming crack in this newfound self confidence of Cait waiting for an area to break to prove to her what she expects at this point, that nothing can fix her or her sisters, and that you and your DH are awful parents who don't really care about your children otherwise how could you let these things happen? (You see where she is getting these allegations of abuse? To her the lack of your ability to do the impossible has become abuse to her. She knows intellectually its not, but her emotions will never let her mind win out. She is using these Allegations as a tool, its a crowbar for her to wedge into the wall of authority that you have over her. She can hurt you "punish" you the way you punish her for bad grades or staying out late)

I sees Cait doing better in school so I deliberately do worse. I Honestly do not see a future for myself at this point, after all I don't have much in the way of good examples of growing past this point. The school work you have to understand is boring, repetitive and dull. (I get a strong feeling that Chloe is highly above average intelligence, I feel this way because of the route she has taken in an attempt to save herself from the depressive and self destructive spiral that she witnessed in her sisters.) I don't want to do the school work and soon if not already I will not even want to go to school. The people there lead mainly normal lives you see and I don't. I'm not like them, I shouldn't have to do what they do, I shouldn't be forced to sit through these classes and endure this mindless drivel that I could easily pass with only a tenth of my effort. Whats the point? There is no point.

(interlude I know running through your head is all the tings rational countering to these thoughts. If its so easy why not just do it? There is a point! Education is critical to life! But please try very hard to understand, this is utterly key to any hope you may have of saving your daughter untold amounts of pain and heartache. To her it is not critical, nothing is critical compared to what she has endured. Sluffed off grades are trivial. Your limitations and boundaries you place for her are worthless to her, they give her only something to rebel against. These are normal teenage emotions and feelings but for her they are magnified out of control. Your punishments are rallying cries to get her to fight that much harder against her. I am not telling you that your efforts are in vain, or that you are doing the wrong thing, but you MUST understand deep inside yourself that the very acts you do to try to contain the aggressive and dangerous behavior of your daughter are in the core going to be a source of pain and conflict between the two of you until she snaps free of the prison she has placed herself in.)

Now I have begun to get violent with my parents, because they are trying to change me. The way they tried to change my sisters, they way they tried to change Rissa. I'm not going to let them do this to me too. I have done the only thing I can to save myself from ending up like her and I'm not going to let them tear me down the way they did her. (you see the chain is now complete, it has gone from "mommy daddy why aren't you helping Rissa?" to "Mom and Dad I watched you tear my sister down inch by inch till she had nothing left and then she took the only way out she had." This chain is in place for a very specific reason. And here is the core of the single most urgently important thing you will ever have to know about Chloe at this time in her life. If I am right, and I have a distinctly strong feeling that I am, Chloe is terrified that she is going to become Rissa. All the feelings of growing up she has had to endure, amplified to incomprehensible levels, by the trauma of childhood disasters, have led her to a conclusion she will never admit to you, or the therapists, or anyone else. In fact it scares her so much that she wont admit it even to herself. She is afraid that she is going to become her sister, that she is going to develop Bi Polar or some other mental illness, and that she is going to become a miserable person, so sad and distraught that she has no choice in her own mind but to end her own life. It terrifies her so much that she has done the only emotional thing she can to fix this. She has altered her own mind, buried the truth of these feelings under so much blame and hatred at the only people available, that she cant dig up that core. Its like finding something terrifying buried in your back yard, and you hurry to throw as much dirt on top of it as you can, then you pave your yard and move just to get away from it. But she cant get away from it. Its part of her, the ever present possibility that it could happen.)

I am sorry that your Daughter has had to go through this. I'm sorry with all my heart and soul that your family has to endure this. I vividly remember my fist fights with my father, the counseling sessions, the brutal punishments and the violent rebellions that I threw back at every authoritative figure. I remember my dad's self proclaimed Personality Reconstruction Routine. (A desperate attempt through use of severe punishments and harsh consequences for disobedience to change behavioral patterns that were so ingrained in me by that time no one could change them but me.) I want you to know that your Attachment Parenting, while it is causing your family some pain now, (because you are all so close its really easy for Chloe to hurt everyone in the family far more than it would be in a distant parenting style family that let the children go their own way), Your Attachment parenting may be the only thing that can very slowly guide Chloe around to some other form of handling her feelings.

I have some advice to offer you now, it may or may not be to your liking, but its the best I can give you. One way or another you are going to have to face the fact that your family is self destructing. Accepting this does not mean not doing anything about it, or giving up, it means just realizing the truth, that No matter what you do with Chloe at this point its going to cause problems with your family. That said here are some options

1.You could Send Chloe to Military school or some other tough love environment, with an attempt and philosophy that such an environment will give her no choice but to conform in mind and body to the will of authority, and eventually after extended time there will condition her thoughts to be more accepting of the lesser forms of Authority that you impose in your house.

Now there are some cons to this. First con is that Chloe's way of dealing with this problem she is facing is to use Anger and the power that comes with it to over ride the feeling of hopelessness that will come on with depression. She uses her natural teenage disdain for Authority to feed that anger, and give it something to build on. (All teenagers have endless amounts of Angst.) By sending her to a structured environment like this you are in effect giving her a perfect breeding ground for angry thoughts and feelings of resentment. Not to mention the intense resentment that will eventually be directed towards you, as of course you are the one that sent her here. Second and potentially more serious a consequence is how is this going to look to your other children? Are you going to start the cycle over again? This could be a very serious consideration for you.

2.You could try to work with her in your home, using the methods you already have been using and altering how you impose punishments in an attempt to keep this within the family, trying hard to work for some type of compromise with you and Chloe while she deals with her feelings on her own. Because honestly, no amount of counseling or medication is going to help her until she wants it to. I'm sorry to say, that is how it will always work with a mental illness, your mind has to un block, it has to open itself to the potential that something is wrong, deep inside before it will accept any such help from another source.

This also has some cons. While Chloe is in your house she is a risk both physically and mentally to the rest of your family. You cannot allow her to harm other members of your family, but at the same time you cannot allow her to run amok with no boundaries and set the example for the other children that there is nothing they cannot do. You have to walk an extremely thin tightrope to balance boundaries and Chloe's views and reactions. This could very well prove to not only be difficult, but impossible.

3.Here is the Suggestion that I strongly recommend. This requires a bit of deceit on your part, and a lot of maneuvering behind the scenes, but it is i believe the only way that you are going to be able to do whats best for your entire family, Chloe included. You have to find her a confidant.

There are many reasons for this. She has distanced herself from you and her father, through no fault of your own, just the way life played out, but it makes her feel alone. She will instinctively seek out someone else. What you need to do is find this someone else first. Here is where the deceit comes in. Obviously you simply cannot say here is Bob, Bob is going to be your friend, he will be there for you if you need to vent talk or do whatever. She'll reject it, of course she wants nothing to do with anyone you "pick out for her". Here is how to work it. You find someone older than her, likely the opposite sex, someone you would never approve of her hanging out with under normal circumstances, certainly not someone she would ever have any thoughts of you being tied too.

Get them introduced, likely by him "meeting her" you mentioned she has a My Space, that would be perfect, make sure the guy is someone that would foster an air of teenage rebellion in her, something that says you know lets just screw what your mom and dad say about you not being out past 11 and go see the late show anyway type guy. Make sure that once you "discover" this guy, you make your disapproval expressly known, but at this point you are so "tired" of forbidding her this and forbidding her that, that you don't forbid her, just be vocal about your disapproval, enough to keep this guy an interest to her as a friend. (naturally you had best make sure its someone you can trust) This guy can become a confidant to her. When she is angsting out at home, and runs off (if you cant catch her) likely you will know where she is going. Better you will know she's safe, and not out with some drug addicts or drinking and going to come home pregnant. The most important thing about this is that this guy can steer her away from the destructive and dangerous parts of her rebellious nature, and channel these feelings and actions into something you can handle. It gives her an outlet and gives you relief peace of mind and a sense of being in control of the situation.

Make sure you respond to things she does that break your boundaries, like if she stays out too late, or talks on the phone past phone time. Any of this, you cant let her know that you have in any way really laxed on these things. But this guy can steer her toward the more common teenage behaviors, slowly at first, but in a way that wont make her feel coerced, and wont make her feel like she is being trained.

I know, you are probably reading this and thinking, introduce my daughter to an older guy she can run off to and hang out with when she's being rebellious and violent, yeah thats like setting the house on fire and saying. Hey I'm going to put it out with lighter-fluid! But trust me, nothing you can do is going to keep her from finding that guy. It sounds like she may already be looking with this strange 26 year old My Space guy. Wouldn't you rather have a little guiding hand in the situation? I know I would.

I really feel for your situation, and the plight Chloe and your family are going through has struck a chord deep inside of me. I just recently wrote my parents and grandparents explaining to them a lot of what I felt when I was growing up and how I'm sorry that I treated them the way I did and I hope they can forgive me. I really hope this advice helps you have patience and helps you find a way to work with Chloe. I wish there was something more I could do than Jibber Jabber in a text window for you.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Seriously? what the heck was that??? Whoa.....

........Anyway.....to the OP. My heart is really hurting for all of you. I couldn't read this and not respond. I think you are all in inexplicable pain. I can't imagine walking in any of your shoes. I hope that you all get the help you so desperately need, so that you can ALL start healing. You will be in my thoughts.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3_opihi*
Seriously? what the heck was that??? Whoa.....

........Anyway.....to the OP. My heart is really hurting for all of you. I couldn't read this and not respond. I think you are all in inexplicable pain. I can't imagine walking in any of your shoes. I hope that you all get the help you so desperately need, so that you can ALL start healing. You will be in my thoughts.

If you would have read it all the way through, you would see that he is looking at it from the daughter's perspective as opposed to a frusterated parents perspective or another parents perspect who can't give advice and rather just a "I'm so sorry you have to deal with this".

As parents get older and more frusterated with situations they are in they tend to forget to try looking at it from their child's perspective. My mother and my grandmother have both admitted to this.

Since he's only 25 and has stated he has a bi-polar wife and as a teen could be quite awful to his parents, he seems to have still remembered a bit of how teenagers react, think, and reason things out to justify their actions to themselves and others. He probably has first hand experience with bi-polar episodes and knows more about the mental justifications that go through the brain during those times... He does have a wife with B-PD. At the end of the post he has really good helpful stuff to say, once he makes it clear that he's trying to look at it from a 15 year old perspective. You seem to be like "omg why would he say all that LIKE that?" Because as he's stated, he's looking at it from Chloe's frame of mind. Not many of us parents really stop to think what the KID is thinking, or how the KID justifies the actions. I admit I have a hard time looking at it from my DD's perspective when she's throwing a tantrum about something. But later, when I try I see why she did what she did, I understand ON HER LEVEL how her actions were justified (whether they were right or wrong is a completely seperate matter).

Anyways, I'm going to quote some of his stuff that I think you might have missed. (bold and underline my addition)

Quote:

And here is the core of the single most urgently important thing you will ever have to know about Chloe at this time in her life. If I am right, and I have a distinctly strong feeling that I am, Chloe is terrified that she is going to become Rissa. All the feelings of growing up she has had to endure, amplified to incomprehensible levels, by the trauma of childhood disasters, have led her to a conclusion she will never admit to you, or the therapists, or anyone else. In fact it scares her so much that she wont admit it even to herself. She is *afraid* that she is going to become her sister, that she is going to develop Bi Polar or some other mental illness, and that she is going to become a miserable person, so sad and distraught that she has no choice in her own mind but to end her own life. *It terrifies her so much that she has done the only emotional thing she can to fix this. She has altered her own mind, buried the truth of these feelings under so much blame and hatred at the only people available, that she cant dig up that core.* Its like finding something terrifying buried in your back yard, and you hurry to throw as much dirt on top of it as you can, then you pave your yard and move just to get away from it. But she cant get away from it. Its part of her, the ever present possibility that it could happen.)

*I am sorry that your Daughter has had to go through this. I'm sorry with all my heart and soul that your family has to endure this.* I vividly remember my fist fights with my father, the counseling sessions, the brutal punishments and the violent rebellions that I threw back at every authoritative figure. I remember my dad's self proclaimed Personality Reconstruction Routine. (A desperate attempt through use of severe punishments and harsh consequences for disobedience to change behavioral patterns that were so ingrained in me by that time no one could change them but me.) *I want you to know that your Attachment Parenting, while it is causing your family some pain now, (because you are all so close its really easy for Chloe to hurt everyone in the family far more than it would be in a distant parenting style family that let the children go their own way), Your Attachment parenting may be the only thing that can very slowly guide Chloe around to some other form of handling her feelings.*


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

It's all been arranged. Tommorow I'm taking Chloe to be admitted to residential treatment.

We'd been rethinking the decision but the last week has only served to reinforce what we need to do. I found a note that is pretty much a suicide note. She says there is no point in living, nothing to live for. She stopped her meds cold turkey without telling anyone, a move that can cause potentially lethal problems. It causes one to crash and crash hard.

She's still skipping school. Verbally attacking others in the family. Isolating. Threatening to run.

She knows she is on a waiting list for her med check so I'll tell her I got a call for a cancellation. She has not seen this doctor before but she is on the same campus as residential. I'm going to tell her I got her in for the morning and take her there. Once we go through the main doors, she is locked in and cannot run.

I'm doing most of the pre-admit paper work today, packing a few clothes and other things.

This is going to be one of the hardest things. I know she will be angry with me and possibly hate me for some time. I just cannot sit back and watch her destroy herself.

We can visit every night. Family therapy twice a week. Call daily. After she earns the ability, she can have home visits and then weekend visits.

She'll be on a suicide watch for some time to come.

I'm terrified, yet I know this is what is best for her.

I just keep seeing this precious little baby nursing, smiling, cooing, learning to walk, talk... She was so happy until 3.5 years ago. Losing Marrissa changed us all. I just want my family back...

Got to go. Can't type through the tears.

Janis


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

((((Janis))))


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Oh, Janis, my thoughts and prayers are with you and yours.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

Oh Janis, I'm so sorry. I'm praying for your family....


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## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I'm sorry your family has to go through this. She's a lucky girl to have such a supportive mom.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Thinking of you.


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## mamatojade (Jun 2, 2004)

I'm sorry.

((((HUGS))))


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Janis


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

Oh, Janis.














& more









You're doing the right thing, though it's probably right up there on the list of hardest things you'll ever have to do. Good luck Mama.


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## littlemama06 (Oct 29, 2005)

I am so sorry for you and your family.

Kaitlin


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## fierymyst (May 27, 2006)

Offering you all the support I have


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## MamaHippo (Dec 4, 2004)

Offering





















for your family. You will all get through this. You're stronger than you know.


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## merrybee (May 18, 2002)

Janis. I am praying for your whole family. You are such a strong mama!


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## merrybee (May 18, 2002)

Janis. I am praying for your whole family. You are such a strong mama!


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

Janis, you and your family are in my thoughts. I can not even imagine how difficult this must be for you.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

I am so sorry life us so hard for Chloe and your family right now. I sincerely hope the in-house treatment makes a difference. Stay strong


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Janis, I'm so so sorry. You're such a strong mother and woman. I'll be keeping you and your family in my thoughts.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Janis, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It sounds like you don't have any other options. I'll keep you and Chloe in my prayers!


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

My thoughts are with you and your family. You are such a strong loving mother!


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

:







:







:

&%^ &#$$*@!!!

Late yesterday afternoon I got a call from the program. Seems the kid who was supposed to go home this morning to make room for Chloe did something that prevents him/her from being released. They didn't give me more info due to confidentiality, which is fine.

What has me upset is that now they cannot get her in till next week. Maybe Tuesday. Maybe Wednesday. Hopefully no later than Thursday. I had my mind geared towards today, it takes a lot of mental preperation to get to the point you can take your precious, albiet obnoxious troubled teen to these places. I know she needs help and the relief at knowing it was just a day away was helping.

Now I have to get through the week, the weekend and into next week and pray she doesn't hurt herself or bolt. The bolting part terrifies me. As I was packing her things, a few clothes, etc, I noticed quite a bit of her things are missing. Is she storing them somewhere in preperation to leave? Finding the flyer on a shelter for runaway teens did not do anything to alleviate my fears.

New issues with my older dd who we thought was doing better have added even more stress to the mix.

Dh and I have a friendly relationship, staying together mostly for the kids and finacial benefits. He's ready to blow a gasket. He is sick of all the crap and just wants a normal peaceful life. I guess he has forgotten all the hell we both put our parents through as teens. If I have to remind him one more time that bipolar and depression are real illnesses one cannot snap out of, I think I may have to find a baseball bat and knock some sense into him. Not really, but you get the idea.

My mom is no help. Her belief is that if I had just beat the shit out of the kids on a regular basis we wouldn't be where we are today. (I don't spank) Yeah mom, your approach worked well on us kids. Let's perpetuate the cycle.

My dad... I love him dearly but he doesn't get it either. And I am actually embarrassed to tell him of any of our struggles. He was so blown away when Rissy died because he had no clue as to how bad things were for her. He's from a very wealthy society family. Country club type, ski trips to Austria, via helicopter to the mountaintop no less. He's not cold or unloving, he's just very sheltered when it comes to these things. Heck, he doesn't even know most of my struggles as a teen.

My inlaws? Can't go there. We don't really talk at all.

Friends? I wore out my listening ears with Rissy's issues.

So when I get panicky, I hit the computer and try to find some diversion. I put the twins on my lap and we look at animals, baby pictures, play Crazy Frog 3 -4 times. Temporary diversion, but it helps for a few minutes.

I just feel so dang alone in all of this. I lay in bed at night wondering what I am doing so wrong that three of my girls have to struggle this way. It really can make you feel like a horrid parent.

I'm not strong. I'm jello inside. All my decisions are colored by the fact that one of my kids took her own life rather than come to me so I could help her.

I want the dang parenting handbook that tells you how to do it all right. I just wants my kids to grow up healthy, happy and ... well... to actually live long enough to grow up.

Thanks for the kind words and support. You really have no idea what it means to me.

Janis


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

I was just coming here to tell you I was thinking of you & Chloe today...









The fact that you keep going, keep trying, keep working at getting & keeping your family healthy is evidence of your strength.

If you express your fears (of imminent leaving/injury) would the program let Chloe in anyway?

You're doing well Mama, you really are.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

I can't believe that happened. Is there no way they could make an exception for her considering everything? You must be beyond yourself with anxiety! Is there possibly another inpatient situation that you could use for the immmediate emergency and then move her to the place you want when the space opens up?


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## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

Is there possibly another inpatient situation that you could use for the immmediate emergency and then move her to the place you want when the space opens up?
State mental hospitals have to take people on a 24 hour hold if they are shown to be "a danger to themselves or others" or something else -- like grossly incapable of caring for themselves. After that, the person can request a competency hearing and may be involuntarily commited. I was in that spot of being placed in a state institution and then transferred to private when I was a teen.

The state hospital was rather awful. They didn't really have room and I spent the night sitting in the hall b/c there were no beds. A woman there wet her gown and they changed her in the middle of the hall and left the wet gown there all night. I still have the 'patients rights' book somewhere where I wrote something about feeling discarded just like the hospital gown. I still remember the woman who wet her gown's name -- Susan.

That said, if I thought that our choice was btwn taking dd to a place like that or letting her die, she'd be at the state institution.

My heart breaks not just for you, but for your daughter. It is so hard to accept help from your parents at her age. It is hard to trust them, to be close to them; it is all so hard. Are there any places where you could get her an adult mentor with whom she might be more open? Does she have any adults in the family (aunts?) or teacher to whom she feels close who could keep an eye on her safety until you are able to get her admitted? I had a former camp counselor who made me promise to call her before I killed myself. Strange as it sounds, I wouldn't have done it w/out calling her even though I knew that she wouldn't stand idly by.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)




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## fierymyst (May 27, 2006)

Hon, I cannot even begin to fathom the pain you are in or the strength that you have to get thru this, I know you feel ready to collapse at any moment but we are all here to be your support, yea I'm new on this website but I still can sympathize. We all feel sympathy with you, terror to be in your position, heart broken at your pain, fear for all of you, and love for your love. Watch her every minute even as you pretend you aren't. Today is almost over and that puts you one day closer to getting the help you need for her. I'm so sorry that your older daughter is now struggling again also. You really need dh's support right now and it has to be hard all around. If many of us were there we would crowd around you and give you a big hug of support. It doesn't even sound like you have had time to deal with your feelings and grief yet. I hope that everyone in your family gets the help they need and try your friends again. True friends hang in there!!


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## merrybee (May 18, 2002)

You should look into the options of taking her to a hospital while waiting for the private place to open. I know this is so hard on you and you don't feel strong, but you are ever so strong- more than you realize. My hugs and prayers go out to you and your whole family.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

She's gone.

We told her she had a doctor appointment and took her in. She looked a bit nervous as the doors closed and locked behind her, but went on through to the other room when asked.

When told what was taking place, she jumped up screaming that she hates us. She ran to the other side of the room, screaming and crying.

Once she calmed down and we started going through the admit process, she was hateful, making rude comments, telling them that she was being abused emotionally and mentally. She refused to talk to us or say goodbye.

They will be doing a tox screen and basic bloodwork, including a pregnancy test. No meds at this time - not sure if we want any at all. Only if needed and they cannot give anything without contacting us.

I have to go back tonight and take her clothes and other things.

This has been so hard. I had to lie to her to get her there.... Me who always tells her how important the truth is...

They have her on high precautions. No shoes, no belts, 10 minute bed checks at night ad a few other things to help keep her safe.

They are putting her in a section away from other kids due to her aggression issues also putting her on a two staff member ratio.

My heart is heavy, aching and breaking. I pray I am doing the right thing...

Janis


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## magster (May 4, 2004)

Gentle hugs aplenty are coming your way from down here, Janis.
I hope brighter times are ahead for everybody in your family.


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## BlueNote (May 19, 2006)

Janis, I'm thinking of you and praying for your family.


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

Janis, Continuing to think of you and your family.

It's always darkest before the dawn, hang in there, and keep coming back here for support.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

ive read your thread and just cant see it again without sending my well wishes to you and your family. teenagers are very difficult, but it seems you have more than your fair share of difficulties. i truly hope this helps your daughter, and your entire family,







s
rach


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## leafwood (Jun 15, 2004)

You and your daughter are in my thoughts!


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## gr8tfulmom (Mar 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
I pray I am doing the right thing...

Janis

You are doing what you have to Janis and being the mama she needs right now.


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## Tinas3muskateers (May 19, 2004)




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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanisB*
This is going to be one of the hardest things. I know she will be angry with me and possibly hate me for some time. I just cannot sit back and watch her destroy herself.

We can visit every night. Family therapy twice a week. Call daily. After she earns the ability, she can have home visits and then weekend visits.


She *will* get better and she will get over the anger and see how hard this was for you and how much you love her. Is her sister mad at you for putting her intreatment? I am guessing no. this could be a wonderful oppritunity for you. the treatment center sounds wonderful. from teh very first post my suggestion was going to be a good inpatient treatment center. it gets her away from you (it sounds like she wants a little space even if this isn't what she wants) and people who really know what they are doing. you have seenit help one child. don't doubt your descision. you are doing this for the right reasons and it sounds like the right place. it could all be very very good . it sounds like a safe caring place for her right now.

It is obvious she is hurting terribly over her sisters death. you cannot fix that. and it is not your fault. the bi-polar is not your fault, the death of your dd is not your fault, and the fall out from that is not your fault. its not like you are sitting around on your butt. you are trying everything. the time came for calling the police and that was ok. the time came for her to find a place to cool off and that was ok too. and now the time has come for some most serious help. and that is ok too.


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## redwolf2 (Jan 3, 2006)

I am praying for you mama. I couldn't read and not respond.







You did what you had to do. She is beyond all things you alone can do for her. SHe needs serious help and that is exactly what you did for her. You are stronger than you think and come here anytime you need to talk about it. Blessings to you and your fam.

namaste


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

I am far from having a teenager and I don't pretend to know the first thing about what you are going through, but I have been reading this thread. This must be so very, very hard on you all. I am thinking of you and wishing your daughter, the rest of your family and you all the best.


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## lissabob (Dec 18, 2005)

I have a bipolar brother and remember well the hell he put my parents through, and still is for that matter. I think it's a wonderful thing you are able to get her treatment- I wonder what might have happened had my brother's problems been treated differently, but as a very low income family our resources were very few. I'm praying that as time goes by she and your family will heal. If she needs med, please, let her have them, but of course have her monitored *VERY* carefully that first week. When my brother was placed on meds at first he wasn't monitored close enough and attempted suicide. Now he is on different meds and doing a LOT better. He's still got a ways to go though.

((HUGS))


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

((((Janis))))


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I've been following this thread. It really hit home a few weeks ago when I lost my cousin. If my aunt and uncle had been able to see into his thoughts, intervention would have followed instead of the path he took. I think you're doing right by your daughter and one day she'll look back and understand that.


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## DragonflyBlue (Oct 21, 2003)

Earthmama,

I'm so sorry for your loss. So very sorry...

If you would like more information on suicide survivor groups or on Compassionate Friends ( a group for bereaved parents) for yourself or aunt and uncle, let me know. I'll send it to you.

Janis


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

{{{{{Janis}}}}}

No words- just complete respect for how lovingly you're handling your entire family.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

I hope she will respond well to the help you are getting for her. I understand how difficult that must have been for you to go against your instincts and lie to her in order to be able to take her there. From everything I've read here, I am really admiring your handling of the situation - it seems to me you are doing everything you can to help her.

I'm glad you could finally get her placed in the inpatient situation. I hope you are able to relax a little, and do something to take care of yourself now. (I know you still have a lot on your plate!)


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## fierymyst (May 27, 2006)




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## marymamma (Mar 22, 2004)

How are things this week mama?


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