# Support Needed: He's breaking me...



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi. It's Bears. I need some hugs. Some support. Some BTDT advice. SOMETHING. What else is new, right?

He's breaking me. Killing me. My three year old. He is exasperating. Relentless. Negative. Emotional. Even when we're just trying to have a conversation-a real conversation-it is peppered with so many NOs that I get infuriated. There are so many daily power struggles that I wouldn't even know where to begin to detail them. Today, I told him that I was going to make pizza dough and that I needed his help. He was excited, as he always is when he helps me cook. The problem is, he doesn't want to wait for anything. Like, I have to cut open the yeast. He's grabbing, yanking, etc. I have to borrow his chair to climb up and get more flour from a high shelf. He is screaming NO and crying (real tears!), b/c I need to do something for literally TWO seconds. The whole time during this dough-making experience I am reassuring him about how he is going to help. Like, as I'm getting the olive oil, he's screaming, "ME, ME, ME!!". And I'm saying, "Yes, honey, you ARE going to help. But I need to open the bottle, get the knife, open the yeast, etc." Is your three year old like this?

Also, I talk all the time about feelings. I ask him about his during or after a meltdown. I tell him that he can share his feelings and put them into words, but he doesn't or won't or something. My DH thinks that I'm expecting a lot from him if I expect him to be "sharing his feelings" at this stage. I'm hoping, however, that I am at least laying the groundwork for later. When he's ready.

He won't let me "mother" him. He has to everything himself. And those things he DOES want my help with, well, if I don't help him IMMEDIATELY, and I mean immediately (like if I'm sitting on the toilet and am about to wipe kind of immediacy) well he FREAKS out. He won't wear long sleeves, sweaters, or sweatshirts. He won't wear a hat. I am lucky that he likes snowboots, b/c that's all he will happily wear.

I can't easily go out with him. But honestly, if we spend all day in the house it is literally nightmarish. Going out is bad, staying in is worse. He went through this stage where is was an angel when we were out. But NOW, he's getting really unruly out. For instance, we went to Target today and he decided he wanted to go down a particular aisle and became a human blocker and started pushing the cart into me. Screaming NO MOMMY. I got down on his level, said all the "right" things. NO dice. I was about to have a nervous breakdown right there in Target. Please don't tell me to NOT go to Target. My whole life with my boy has been about NOT doing things. I can't go back there.

I am floundering. I have no other options some days but to threaten to take toys away. We've tried time outs. They don't work. If he's really worked up, he will hit me.

Have I mentioned that he is a textbook spirited kid? And he gets up at the a$%crack of dawn? Oh, I am seeeeriously rambling now. I feel that I've lost control. That I've lost him. That somehow a bond has been broken due to all the transition difficulties of the past 6 months (I have a 6 mos son, too). I feel that we're not connecting-AT ALL. When the baby sleeps, I try to be all about him. I don't know. I hate myself. I sometimes dislike my son so much that I really wish I didn't have to be with him the whole day.

Is this just what mothering a spirited 3 year old looks like? I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to be that consistent, centered, role model for him. I am a wreck inside. I don't think I can truly put into words what parenting this child does to me. I love him to the core of my being. That goes without saying. But his temperament mixed with all of my issues, self doubt, and that fact that I am only fREAKIN' human, well, that spells disaster. Maybe. I don't know.

If you've read this far, thanks and I'm sorry. I need to know that I'm okay and that my beautiful boy, will be okay, too.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

I don't have a ton of advice, except love him, take breaks when you feel nutty, and know that you'll all come out OK!

That sounds so much like DS at that age. I never did figure out a magic cure, so hopefully other mamas here have good advice. We just bumbled through (lots of deep breathing, and some TV so I could go in the other room and breathe). Now he's 8 1/2 and much much mellower.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

liawbh-Thanks for your reply. It really helps to hear from someone whose BTDT...


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Yep! Sounds like a spirited 3 year old. I think you are doing it about right, just maybe take it a little slower. My spirited child is now 20, and the 3 year old is pretty easy comparitively but 3 is still 3. This week he said he didn't need my help opening banannas because "I big now, I a man." So- three is pretty much raised, right?

I try to do one step at a time. "As soon as you sit down I will open the yeast. As soon as I open the yeast, you can stir. As soon as..." Of course sometimes it still erupts. Today he ran upstairs in tears because I refused to play his computer game. All I was asking for was him to let me use the mouse long enough to get him to where he wanted to be. 5 minutes later, he came back down to tell me he was mad at me. I reminded him that all I was asking for was a minute to use the mouse without his help. So, he went upstairs mad- again. Another 5 minutes and he was back and pretty agreeable. Ok- he's not really very spirited. But he is way sensitive as you can see.

Watch your emotional intensity. It is really hard to be too crazy without company. And good luck... number one son is very spirited and I have lived through one. Now number 3 son seems more spirited. 2 out of 3 spirited boys. I am blessed. They make you work for your money, thats for sure.

Good luck,


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## PadmaMorgana (Apr 14, 2004)

I have no where near the spirited 3 year old you have (although I expect my 1 year old will be that spirit...soon), but what helps us in that "I am freaking out and want it NOW" stage is a deep breath.

The kids are fond of a deeeeppp lion breath (rooooaaarrrr). But a deep giraffe breath is a good one (it is more of a stretch) as is a elephant breath. You get to do it too









Do you have Dr. Sears book "Raising the spirited child" ? I think that is the title. It may help.


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## DaisyRose (Feb 13, 2005)

I have one who hates hates hates getting dressed, too.

I just pack up her clothes and take her outside naked. By the time the door swings open and the cold air hits her, she's asking for clothes.

I can't understand why she needs to test the temperature EVERY SINGLE TIME, but bless her little heart, she does.

So I let her.

Just one issue, but I hope it helps.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

I also am not much help, but first of all wanted to give you









I would not say that my DD, who is also 3, is spirited, but she has majorly entered into the stage of wanting to do it ALL by herself. And heaven forbid you do something for her that she had her mine set on doing. She has never been prone to tantrums or meltdowns, but she now can fall apart like the best of them. One day I pushed the elevator button when she wanted to and she cried almost the whole way home. She will also do things like take the jacket you just put on her off, to do it herself, screaming all the while. So I am trying to accept this new stage we are at and give her the time and space to do these things by herself.

I am also trying to let go of how warmly she is dressed to go outside. (I do insist on a coat, at minimum) But hey, you don't want the scarf, hat, etc? Well, then there ya go. At the beginning of the season we had many a conversation about why we wear long sleeves in the winter, etc. It did take a while, but it did finally take. Explaining it is key for DD. My saying so isn't enough -- well, who can blame her









Sorry not much more help. Hang in there!!


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh Bears, this sounds exactly like my son a few months ago!








Remember me? I have a spirited 4 yo and a 7 mo old. I kid you not, we have had nightmare trips to Target, Whole Foods, playgroups, you name it. (My all time favorite was visiting a house we were considering renting with ds refusing to leave the car, then screaming 'You're hurting me, you're hurting me!". I was unbuckling his carseat. :LOL) I swore I would never leave the house with him. We dropped out of many activities and stopped visiting friends. If we went anywhere, he went in his pjs and yellow boots.
It has passed for us, for the most part, and he is suddenly able to cope with things he couldn't before, like me changing his sister diaper when he wants juice. He still has poor impulse control, most 4 yo olds do, but life had been less relentless the past few weeks, and ask my dh, "relentless" is exactly the word I used every night.
I had such a hard time feeling like I didn't like this child I loved more than I knew was possible. A wise friend who'd BTDT told me I'd like him again, and not to worry, but I did! She was right though.
The only thing I did differently was change my intensity. I don't do it well all the time, and there are days I can't do it at all, but managing to stay detached but loving and accepting was the key for me. When I stopped wondering what *I* was doing wrong, when I stopped taking my mom's "you girls were never this way" comments seriously, I found it all waaay easier to cope with. But mostly, we just kept on keeping on and the impossible phase passed.

but he still gets up at the a$$crack of dawn. . .


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## gratefulmama (Jun 21, 2002)

I have been there-recently-my dd just turned 4 last week and I think she is spirited in her persistence and sensitivity. I have noticed a huge change in the past few weeks. I had dd2 when dd1 was 28 months, and we had a really difficult year after that. I have felt those awful feelings of not liking my own daughter, not wanting to be around her,though I still loved her. Also fear of putting a badly-parented child (my failure) into the world.

It did get better, I don't know how-I just kept reading here and in gentle discipline, trying different things. Trying to stay consistent with rules even though she tests every one every day. As she matures, her sense of time matures and I can have a sane conversation about waiting. She likes to have a say in things-if I ask her if she has any ideas about a problem it seems to help-but that's just started working recently. Before when I would try to include her opinions she'd be too upset to come up with anything.
Hope this helps, and hang in there!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"He won't wear long sleeves, sweaters, or sweatshirts. He won't wear a hat. I am lucky that he likes snowboots, b/c that's all he will happily wear."

nak so excuse typing - I may be well off base but dd is v much like this and she has SID. 'Spirited' just isnt enough of a label to fit her - she is spirited and then some. Have you researched SID to see if it sounds like ds?

I apologise if I'm way off mark.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Not much time as I'm getting breakfast together but needed to check in. The hugs will help this morning.







Thank you ALL for your replies and support. I will reply tonight when DH is home. BUT, I did catch Britishmum's post about SID. Funny you should mention this, but I was just on a website recently (it was linked in someone's thread here at MDC).Sounds very much like my son, but I don't know what to do with that information. OR, perhaps he is just REALLY, REALLY spirited..... don't know??? How would I know? How would this information help me? Us?

More when I can.... thanks, as always for the love and hugs.


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## beth568 (Jul 1, 2004)

Another SID mom saying that the clothing issues in combination with the "difficult" personality do sound familiar. But it's complicated stuff, so I hate to diagnose. If he does have SID, you can start by contacting your local school system for an evaluation and some recommendations...

Just know that I am yet another mom who has BTDT (in the middle of it right now). Lately, my DD has been SO challenging that I just don't like her much. I don't want her to bug me. I just want some peace. And I feel horrible about it, because I know she's just a little kid and it's not her fault. In fact, I was coming her to post something about the way I feel.









It really helps me to hear that people get through it and that the kids aren't irreparably damaged. I feel like a very bad parent right now, and I worry that I've lost the strong bond I had with my daughter. And I know she's angry with me; she often storms off saying that she doesn't like her mother. It breaks my heart to think I've made her feel that way (our new baby probably doesn't help things, either).

Hugs to you. I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's hard.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I have one who hates hates hates getting dressed, too.

I just pack up her clothes and take her outside naked. By the time the door swings open and the cold air hits her, she's asking for clothes.

I can't understand why she needs to test the temperature EVERY SINGLE TIME, but bless her little heart, she does.

So I let her.

Just one issue, but I hope it helps.

My spirited 2.75 year old only wears undresses, pretty much. My only rule is that we have to wear underwear in public and shoes on the street.

Funny thing is after months of fighting I decided to "freeze her out." I just let her go to the park in a sundress in 40 degrees or so. She was shivering be the time she conceded that she needed her coat. Later I found that I still had to bring the coat rather then putting it on at the door, but she was quicker to ask for it (especially if I didn't offer.)

Now the other day she was prepared to go out to the coffeeshop in her sundress and I opened the door and after a few seconds she told me she was cold! I offered a jacket, but she wanted just a long sleeved shirt, so that's what she wore. However I thought it was a HUGE step for her to choose to put on additional clothes BEFORE leaving in the house.

I am totally realizing that part of it is her hard headedness, but the greater part is she's much warmer than I am. I love the quote "A sweater is something you put on when your mother's cold."


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

In my past life, I worked with emotionally disturbed adults. They would yell and throw things. I learned quickly, that the best way to diffuse the situation would be to totally turn off my emotions and realize that their problems were not my problems. (Teachers say that the minute you lose your temper with a class, you lose the class.) I used to just stare blank faced at these people when they acted up.

I found this approach works amazingly well with my own kids. They seem to calm down much more quickly if I don't match their intensity with my own.

As for the baking, why not try setting everything out in advance and then call on him to help you? Kind of like they do on cooking shows. Cut all the bags open, set out all the tools, etc. I don't think you can expect patience from a three year old when they are excited. At least I've never seen it in my own kids at that age when they were excited.

Finally, regarding clothes. Have a set of clothes (weather appropriate) to bring along with you wherever you go. Let him wear whatever he wants, as Shmoo suggested, and you be prepared to dress him in more when he asks for it. I carry a bag of warm weather and cold weather clothes for each kid--if it gets too cold or too warm, I always have them (or it the weather changed while we're out, or someone refuses something, etc.). It works.
Yeah, it's a pain the butt to carry all that junk, but it's far better than the alternative screaming match.
Heck, there was a woman the other day at the store with a little girl (probably about 4 or 5) in shorts, a t-shirt, no jacket and sandals...and it was 27 degrees here yesterday. I have a feeling that she tried to get the kid dressed and the kid refused. Oh well, we've all seen it/done it.
And if you worry about him catching cold, remember that the flu and colds are caused by bacteria and viruses and not by cold weather.

HTH


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

You will both be okay, Bears, really. 3 is a very difficult age, especially with a spirited child. Mostly all I can offer you is the comfort (?) of knowing yet another mama here has been where you are. It's tough, but it will get easier.

One thing that helped with my spirited one was letting her do some of the things I thought only I could do-use scissors to open the yeast packet for instance. Turns out she was way more able to do things than I thought.

My spirited love is also extremely impatient, and it's frustrating. Sometimes it helps to make my answer just a plain "yes" without talking about the waiting. Or to give her a job to do while she waits-you know, "yes you can pour the oil. Would you please go get a spoon while I get the oil down?". But she's 5 1/2 now and it didn't always work when she was younger. I second the idea of getting everything out ahead of time-I have learned how important that is when baking with all 3 kids wanting to participate.

And I now have another child who hates needing help. That's really tough. I find myself saying "you want to do it yourself and you're frustrated that it's not working the way you want it to" or "you need help but you don't like it because you want to do it yourself" an awful lot. With both my 5 year old and my 14 month old :LOL It does get easier-at least it did with my oldest even though she's still so intense and challenging.

I have to say that I've found that quietness, gentleness, creativity (especially when it comes to finding ways to help them do things themselves and make their own choices) and patience are the keys. Patience is the tough one for me. Avoiding power struggles is so important.

I have an idea about the Target thing. What helps me in going to stores is to let each of the older two be in charge of finding something, so that they have a job to keep them busy. They love that, the challenge of finding something and the responsibility of helping and being in charge of something. And when they want to go down an aisle I don't want to, I can choose to do it if there's time or we can get the things we came for first then go down the aisle they want or if they continue unacceptable (to me) behavior in the store we leave. I have only had to leave a store twice-once with each of my older kids. After that it was a simple matter of saying "I don't like that you're (whatever) in the store. We can leave now or you can (use your quiet voice/be gentle/stay with me/whatever)." Also, I never go shopping when they are likely to become hungry or thirsty or tired (especially my oldest spirited one. And oddly-at least I find it odd-the kids don't always seem to know they're hungry/thirsty/tired or at least don't always communicate it even at age 3 or 5-they just get kind of wiggy). We usually have a snack before leaving, bring water in the car, and go out in the morning before lunch. The afternoon is iffy, because my oldest doesn't nap anymore and my 3 year old only sometimes naps, so I try to avoid doing errands in the afternoon when they're likely to be tired. Sometimes it helps to plan the day so that a fun activity we want to do comes after the not-so-fun errands we have to run. Not so that the fun activity is a reward, but so that it's something to look forward to and to distract them with talking about if they start to get restless.

Once again this turned into a long post. Sorry







Just wanted to share some ideas with you that worked for me.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

That was us last year. One thing I wish I had done more was play with Abi on her terms. Let her set the rules, pick the thing to play, and give her my undivided attention for 15 mins. I think if you let him have the power for something like that it may satisfy a lot of things in him and maybe he'll be less combative during the day.

Other than that just know that it will get better with time and age. It's taken my 4yo almost a whole year to really adjust to and accept her baby sister and we all had to find our groove again.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I also have a SID child and the clothing thing sent of little red flags but obviously as the other posters have said, too little info to diagnose.

I am attaching a link: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=229246

This is a thread entitled "you know your child has SID when..." or something like that. A lot of women who read it were amazed at the range of symptoms and that they can actually be SID things and not just difficult things. It might help.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Oh, Bearsmama, I almost didn't respond to this thread because I feel like I am always responding to your threads with just hugs and understanding, but no helpful advice.

Just know that your son *does* love you and that you deserve that love.

According to my mom (and from my own memory too), I was a very very needy spirited child.

Today, I am probably the most content person I know. Really.

That gives me hope...


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Ladies, Once again, the support I've found here has amazed me and given me hope that tomorrow will be a better day. And that we will all be okay.









MsMoPls-Thank you. I think you are right on about watching my emotional intensity. I think this is similar to what Granolly-girl is saying. Someone has to be the calm one. Even if I don't feel calm inside, I can "fake" it more. And yes, he is making me work very, very hard for the $$$ (what money???







). I guess you can tell by now that I have a hard time seeing the big picture when I'm in the middle of what I think of as a crisis. It's nice to hear from you as a mother of an older son who turned out OKAY.

Padma-I like the lion breath idea. I have to work on trying out some new "tricks". ANd yes, I have the Raising Your Spirited Child book (Kurcinka). It really is one of the most helpful parenting books I have.

Daisyrose& Moonshine-I've let him step outside with a t-shirt on and he definitely wants his jacket on. But I've given up on trying to make him wear longsleeves or a sweater or sweatshirt under that jacket. I am trying to pick and choose our battles.

the_dalai_mama-Of course I remember you!







Nice to be reminded that you've BTDT. I like your words about changing your intensity level. I really, reallly, REALLY need to change my intensity level. And when I can, I see how it changes the dynamic in my house. And YES, YES, YES-I am having such a struggle day in and day out with my conflicting feelings about my own son. Most days lately I do not even want to be around him.







: I feel safe saying that here. But honestly, there's not much right now that I'm enjoying about his personality. That sad part is that I am soooo in love with my 2nd son right now. So the difference is very apparent. I have a really hard time detaching from my older son. Like incredibly hard. So, when I can take the ME out of the dynamic and just step back a bit and realize that his behavior is not a reflection of my parenting. And thanks for sharing what your friend said. I really can't wait until I *like* him again.

grateful-Thank you for the hugs. I need them.

beth568-Thank you, thank you. It really seems like we are having very similar experiences right now. I feel terrible, too. Many days I just want some peace. Just a little peace. Is that too much to ask for??







: Then, simultaneously I feel that he's just a little guy, just starving for mommy, even though mommy really can't be too near him for too long some moments. It breaks my heart every day. And it seems that many, many of us go through the same thing after another baby is born. It's so comforting to know that he (and ME!) are *hopefully* not going to be irreparably damaged from all this.

mommyofshmoo-What is it with the clothes? I'm assuming that it's a small part of their life that they feel that they control. Even if they end up freezing at the park.

sledg-What great, wise words. Thank you, thank you. Patience is my issue. I can be creative, I can even be calm for a certain amount of time. But patience is not my forte.

USAmma-This is what I need to know. That it did get better. And that it shouldn't be "all worked out" only 6-7 months into his baby brother's new life. We've got a ways to go...

Lovebeads-Thank you for the link. I will read more. I'm not sure what to do with this information should I look into it. What has been your experience?

Ahhh, TLO-







Hugs and understanding is really what I need most. I'm so happy to hear from a once spirited girl who is now pretty happy inside. A really nice perspective for me to keep in mind.

Anyway, I'm sure I've missed some things here tonight as my eyes get blurry typing. This all gives me hope that tomorrow CAN be better and we can get through all this.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't know how I missed this thread until now! Hugs hugs hugs.

We have had similar issues here, although admittedly less intense. My older ds has more of a jekyll and hyde personality. One minute we'll be cruising along and all is love and roses, and then the next minute I'm screaming. Perfect example: Wed afternoon we stopped to get a smoothie, as he had been asking for one for about a week. He is an angel ordering the smoothie, sitting at Jamba Juice, walking down the street, etc. We had talked about how we would get the smoothie and then I had to go into the beauty supply store to buy some face cream. (And I HAD to - I had been out for 3 days and my very sensitive pain in the butt skin was already freaking out.) Literally the minute we walk in there he starts going nuts - grabbing things off the shelves, running down the aisle, darting towards the door. It was insanity. I kept trying to engage him in things he could look at and touch, talk with him about almost being done, etc. He was totally ignoring me, and I swear I almost started screaming right there in the tiny little store.

The best advice I have is not easily done, and that is to try not to engage. And this also probably depends on your ds's personality. If I get upset my it just makes things worse. The more I can just stand back and be really neutral in my tone of voice and actions, the more quickly the situation resolves. But of course, I'm usually only able to do this on days where I've gotten some sleep and something to eat, which isn't very often.

I did want to mention that I have come to realize that it probably is too much to ask a 3yo to explain themselves or why they are behaving a certain way. I have often thought about how I sometimes do things that I know I'm not supposed to do, and I can't really always explain why I did it, other than I just wanted to. And I am 33 years old!

I know none of this is going to solve anything, so here are some more hugs!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I came back to this thread today to add something so much like what oceanbaby said about not engaging. It took me a long time to figure out that sometimes it's best just to not engage with my dd when she's upset. She's just too intense sometimes. It happens less now than when she was younger, but it still happens. For a long time I couldn't figure out why saying all the right GD things, a la "How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen" and every other book I've read, just didn't work to resolve the problem in the heat of the moment. I kept thinking if I just acknowledged her feelings and said the right things in the right way, she'd stop flipping out or saying no or whatever she was driving me to the brink with.

Finally I realized two things:

1) She is too intensely caught up in her emotions to talk about her feelings and problem solve when we're in the thick of a crisis. So I have to put on my "firm but neutral" persona and ride it out. (You know "You may not hit. Hitting hurts." Remove myself and victim from the area. "We can talk when you are feeling more calm." Repeat. Or "You may not scream in the store. If you continue to scream we will leave." If screaming continues, leave.) Once the storm has passed and we're all calm, we can talk about what happened, how she was feeling, what else she or I could have done, etc. When she's very upset I like to try to help her calm down, but sometimes that seems to make her more upset and drags things out. So at those times I can only make myself available and offer periodic words of support.

2) Even when we say and do all the right things, regardless of whether we're in the middle of a conflict or taking advantage of a calm moment, sometimes our children just won't or can't behave as we expect and would like them to. Life is more peaceful for all of us when I can let go of my urge to somehow make my kids do what I want, and instead focus more on communicating with them so that they understand my feelings and expectations and I understand theirs, which helps me help them learn. It's like teaching someone math: you keep trying to communicate the concept-talking and trying drawings and using manipulatives and so on- until finally the student is able to understand. And then you still expect occasional mistakes. And there are so many levels of math to learn, so it's an ongoing, constant process of learning and making mistakes. But what we're teaching our kids is so much more complex than math. So there is so much more to understand, and so many more mistakes to make. Both for our kids and for us.

And now my train of thought is becoming derailed and I'm losing my ability to articulate my thoughts so I'll stop.


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## Stacymom (Jul 7, 2002)

I could have written the original post, my oldest (spirited) dd is 3 1/2 and my youngest is 20 months. It's insane the better part of each day. My oldest can be so extrememly sensitive, it seems she cries at the drop of the hat these days, and even though she is extremely verbal, she can't/won't/doesn't articulate what's going on and instead just wails. It's gotten to the point where I've had to look her right in the face and tell her "Stop crying. Use words and tell me what you want."

Getting the two anywhere together is usually a full blown adventure. I've had more meltdowns in stores than I can count. I usually end up swearing that I'm never going to take them anywhere again, and that last all of about one day...







: I've found that talking about the events before hand sometimes helps- like "We are going to go to the grocery store today, and I need you to stay with me." We then repeat several times on our way to the grocery store: Me: "What do we do at the grocery store?" Her: "Stay with mama." Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but we are making progress. And we are anxiously waiting for warmer weather, where I can take both girls to a playground and turn them loose, where they can burn off all their energy without hearing "no!"

On the funny side, dd has had a fever the past few days, and it's been almost spooky around here to have her be so quiet and mellow! :LOL


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GranoLLLy-girl*
And if you worry about him catching cold, remember that the flu and colds are caused by bacteria and viruses and not by cold weather.

That's true, but it's also true that when your body is expending energy trying to keep warm, it affects your resistance to bacteria and viruses.

Anyway, I can empathize with you. Since my son came home in November, my normally mellow and even-tempered daughter has been about one thing: CONTROL. She wants to control EVERYTHING. Some days are better than others. Our bad days sound like yours, but I am lucky in that we have good days, too. I can't imagine having day after day after day of "bad days."

Here are a few things that I do when we are having the bad days:

1) I make my expectations clear before we start an activity and follow through with the consequences if things get out of control. When I first started doing this, things got worse, but now my daughter knows that I mean what I say.

2) I take frequent breaks to read to her, which helps her calm down and relinquish some control.

3) I try not to do things that she can't participate in when she's awake. I cram those things into her naptime. Even if your son no longer naps, you could institute a daily "quiet time" for him.

4) I remind myself that just because my daughter is crying or angry or upset doesn't mean I am doing something wrong. If my daughter falls on the floor because I'm not getting her yogurt THIS INSTANT, when I am going to the bathroom or changing her brother's diaper, I remind myself that this is her issue and, at three, she can be expected to wait 2 or 3 minutes. I ignore her emotional outburst and I don't allow her tornado of emotions to make me feel guilty. I have found that the less time I devote to her raging emotions, the more likely she is to express her emotions constructively. I don't mean that I ignore her emotions, but I do try to ignore inappropriate expressions of emotion.

5) I try to make sure that we have even more structure to our day.

6) I tell her every few minutes what we will be doing next.

I hope some of these ideas are helpful to you!

Namaste!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*

4) I remind myself that just because my daughter is crying or angry or upset doesn't mean I am doing something wrong. If my daughter falls on the floor because I'm not getting her yogurt THIS INSTANT, when I am going to the bathroom or changing her brother's diaper, I remind myself that this is her issue and, at three, she can be expected to wait 2 or 3 minutes. I ignore her emotional outburst and I don't allow her tornado of emotions to make me feel guilty. I have found that the less time I devote to her raging emotions, the more likely she is to express her emotions constructively. I don't mean that I ignore her emotions, but I do try to ignore inappropriate expressions of emotion.

I just had to butt in again and say that this is so helpful. Thanks dharmamama.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Bearsmama - I don't have any advice for you, but I have read many of your posts and I just wanted to tell you I think you are a great mama. I don't know how you manage to deal with all the challenges you face, but you do. My DS is so mellow compared to yours and if I have one bad day, I am a wreck. I really admire you. I know you have a hard time A LOT. Your DS is so lucky to have you as his mother.









Some day he will look back at his childhood and say, "Thank you, Mama!"


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Oh, wow, that took me back. Bearsmama, you describe my son so perfectly in your post.

Ok, not the crying part. He wasn't much of a crier. But he'd throw a fit, woo-hoo.

And as bad as he was, my oldest was worse. She did cry. And scream. Once, before she was three, she threw herself on the floor in the mall and screamed, "Pleeeeease don't hit me mama, pleeeease!" Then threw a fit that lasted twenty minutes, while I, too, did all the right things.

Mind boggling, isn't it.

Here's what we lose sight of, I think. It's not about having a polite, well-mannered threeyo. Or 4. Lots of kids this age are monsters. It's about raising happy, hea;thy, well-adjusted adults who are able to earn a decent living, provide a loving home for their own families.

So, it can all go horribly wrong for now, and yet you can still be headed down the right path.

Lay the groundwork. Don't be afraid to go out!!!!! You NEED to go out. HE needs to go out! Do go to stores. WHen he behaves badly, tell him he'll lose something he values. THis usually worked for me. If I said, "If you behave, you can get an icecream before we go." and really made him or her WAIT til just before we left, we did ok. If I gave it to them early, then they were free to be monsters. Two warnings, then no treat. Period. Cry, throw yourself around, have a party. Let the people look. GO for it, kid. When you're down, we'll go. Then, once home, let bygones be bygones. He didn't get his treat, he's either learned his lesson or he will eventually.

If you give in now, to your embarassment, or his temper, imagine him at 15! Stick to what you're doing, you're doing great! Three isn't a great age, as far as I'm concerned. I rather like 2 better, and 4 and 5 are MUCH better.

Is he super energetic? Try exhausting him early in the day. GO to the playground FIRST. (Or play tag, hide n seek, rough house, get him to run around the house as fast as he can, or chase pidgeons. Whatever.Then try to cook. Don't be afraid to say, "Hey, if you don't stopo crying, and talk nicely to me, I'm going to cook by myself!" He learns to respect you FROM you.

Good luck.. Mine are grown, happy, pleasant, hard-working people, and believe me, you'd have never guessed it would happen~


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

Everyone else has said pretty much what I was going to say. But, although I haven't exactly BTDT, my best friend has.

She has a ds that sounds much like the description you gave of yours. He was diagnosed with SID after her pediatrician recommended an evaluation (after my friend called the ped. crying).

My friend enrolled her son in a class specifically designed for kids who are sensitive to their surroundings, have SID, or other similar issues. It's not a general special needs class, it's very specific.

She hesitated because she didn't want to send him to school - originally she wanted to homeschool and then was going to wait until he was five to start a pre-k program. She had a lot of trouble sending him off so young, and she felt like she was admitting to failure. Her dr. convinced her by saying she only had to committ for one week - she knew she could handle a week.

Anyway, my point - he's thriving. It's like seeing a whole new kid. Something about the program helps him in all aspects of his life. There is definitely something different about the way he sees his environment, how he interprets what information he takes in, and how he responds. And she is learning a ton from the teachers. He's just so much happier.

So, I guess all I'm saying is that is your ds has SID or something similar, you can do all the right things, all the ap things, and it may not help. And there are books you can read - you don't have to go find a special program. But, you may ask your dr. or ped. about the situation and find out if there's something out there that may help.

I'm sure you've seen this with your ds, highly sensitive kids usually love fiercely, and I'm sure your son knows how much he's loved and loves you right back. I hope you can find some peace. Good luck!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Ah, thank you for the relief and support you've all given to me over the past two days. I've really needed it. I feel like I ALWAYS need it. Is that normal???







Am I supposed to sail through this stuff? I don't know. I just can't. I complain. I hem and haw. I cry. I need support.

Ocean-It is soooo hard for me to DE-tach from my son. And it always has been (even when he was little-but then he literally demanded it). I remember realizing at some stage when my older son was little that my DH had this ability to detach from him and any hysteria. Yes, you may say, he's daddy and not the mom. Or that he's a guy (yes, that is a bit sexist and I'll take credit for it). But I realized that it was HEALTHY. He didn't engage with him when he was losing his mind in the same way that I did and do. Some weeks are rougher than others. The past few have been really, really rough. And you are absolutely right about expecting too much in terms of explaining his own behavior. I can't explain mine most of the time lately.
And btw, hugs are really all I need right now. The advice is the bonus.









sledg-I think you articulated yourself very well.







I really like what you say about not getting involved in the maelstrom of their emotions (that's me paraphrasing, of course). I think I expect too much. Really. I know I do. I think it's b/c I expect so much of myself. The other day we were out and he had a meltdown and I did what you describe. I gave periodic touches, words, etc. But I didn't really engage with him too much while it was happening. You are so right, too, about the mistakes that we're making. There's so much more at stake. And it's so much more complicated.
That's why I never like that analogy about thinking about how you would talk to your husband/partner if he were upset or "misbehaving" and apply that to your child (I hope you KWIM). It doesn't work for me on so many levels-primarily b/c the level of complexity and risk and all that is so different with your children. And the love is just different. There's just and intensity there that's different.

stacymom-DS has not been sick like that for a while, but MAN, it is sooo weird when he's low-key and lethargic! I find that rehearsing our next steps really help, too. Especially when we have to go to the grocery store or some other necessary evil.

dharmamam-Great words and advice. You're reminding me of some of the things I've always tried to do but that have somehow gotten lost or harder to do lately. My son doesn't like a lot of advanced notice about stuff b/c he starts to worry abot things. So, I have to approach giving details in a very careful way. It's so hard to not get caught up in the "tornado" of emotions.
Thank you for your advice.

Famous-Thank you for your kind words. And yes, it does seem like I have a hard time a lot, doesn't it? I just want to know that I'm doing this thing okay and that my boy will be okay. And I'm a dweller, and a re-hasher, and emotional. You name it. Leads to a lot of posts like these.









Red-Once again, your words have been helpful and comforting. I really take to heart what you said about how I can ultimately be on the right path, although right now that path is hard for me to see. Sometimes I wonder what path I'm on??? I am praying that your words are true for us, too.

Okay, I've said this before but I had a therapist friend tell me one time that kids need LOVE and they need you to be accountable. I hope that right now that's enough.

Zaftig-Thank you. The SID thing is something that we'll look into. And it's nice to hear that your friend's son is doing so well. I actually had an appointment back in September where I spoke very candidly to my pediatrician about my son's behavior. She said that everything I've described seems "normal" to her, but she gave me some info on this therapeutic play center. She said that it's something to keep in mind should I still be concerned about him.

Another lousy day. And I just get to this mindf&$k stage where I am doing myself more harm than good. I really have to spend some time away from him to gain a different perspective. I can usally pull myself up and out of a funk or bad mood, but this week and recent weeks in general have kept me down longer than I ever expected.

I'm rambling a bit. Thanks to you all for everything...


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Bearsmama- When my oldest was a complete mess, about 10-12, my therapist told me that I needed to focus on the kind of relationship I wanted to have with him when he was 25. Just kind of skip to the end. I wanted him to trust me, come to me with his problems, know that I loved him. And luckily- that really worked. I messed up a lot of the little things but none of the big ones.

The other thing I learned was when I felt like I didn't like my kid, it was time to throw discipline out the window because you have to be madly in love with your kids before they will listen. So when I started to feel at wits end, I always took a complete day off to just play, break the rules, do whatever with him- no discipline allowed. Just play. Run away from home.

I think moms today are so isolated, we need to check in here so we remember that we have all been there, have lived through it, and kids are so resilient- they don't really need perfect parents.


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## dziejen (May 23, 2004)

Bearsmama, I shared your original post with dh and we both agreed it sounds like our dd. She has good days and crazy days but even the good days have a little crazy mixed in. We too struggle with getting dressed and sleeping, eating, leaving the house...you name it, it can be grounds for a huge outburst. I even went so far as to go buy 6 individual pairs of the same socks because those are the only ones that aren't "wrinkly". We try to take it in stride but it can be the most difficult thing sometimes. When my oldest was 3 we did have this to a degree but my youngest is way more intense about everything so it is more of a challenge. Just know you are not alone as I am sure you can see from all of the mamas posting here. And MsMoMpls, I really like your perspective -- I will definitely keep those words in mind!


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
Bearsmama- When my oldest was a complete mess, about 10-12, my therapist told me that I needed to focus on the kind of relationship I wanted to have with him when he was 25. Just kind of skip to the end. I wanted him to trust me, come to me with his problems, know that I loved him. And luckily- that really worked. I messed up a lot of the little things but none of the big ones.

The other thing I learned was when I felt like I didn't like my kid, it was time to throw discipline out the window because you have to be madly in love with your kids before they will listen. So when I started to feel at wits end, I always took a complete day off to just play, break the rules, do whatever with him- no discipline allowed. Just play. Run away from home.


This is so helpful! Thank you. It actually makes me teary. sniff. . .
Thanks for starting this thread Bears.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

MsMoMpls said:


> Bearsmama- When my oldest was a complete mess, about 10-12, my therapist told me that I needed to focus on the kind of relationship I wanted to have with him when he was 25. Just kind of skip to the end. I wanted him to trust me, come to me with his problems, know that I loved him. And luckily- that really worked. I messed up a lot of the little things but none of the big ones.
> 
> The other thing I learned was when I felt like I didn't like my kid, it was time to throw discipline out the window because you have to be madly in love with your kids before they will listen. So when I started to feel at wits end, I always took a complete day off to just play, break the rules, do whatever with him- no discipline allowed. Just play. Run away from home.
> 
> ...


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## malibusunny (Jul 29, 2003)

here is a btdt-- not me, but my mom.







i was the two/three year old from hell. strictly barefoot, a headbanger, smart as all get out which made me almost impossible to stay one step ahead of. stubborn. wouldn't eat anything. had to touch everything, could scream for 8 hours without ceasing. impatient, with a cruel streak.

but... i was also my moms best friend. the sweetest thing. funny. remember that those things are there, too.

what helped her was letting me do the hard, grown up things myself and just standing back to make sure i didn't kill myself. i was sooo independent about some things. but others? she had to wipe me until i was in school.

the good news is i grew up to be "normal"







: i settled down by age four or so, though still spirited, and we are still friends.

deep, calming breaths.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

malibusunny-Thanks so much for your reply. I'm happy to hear that a former spirited/challenging kid grew up to be "normal"! lol!

Unfortunately, things don't seem to be getting any better. In fact, things seem to be spiraling out of control. I think that after almost 7 mos (my 2nd son is 7 months this weekend) of mommy yelling and sometimes raging here and there, it has finally affected my son in an obvious way. When I go to talk to him, he says, "I don't have to talk to you". He says mommy goes a "little crazy". When went to apologize about something tonight he said, "I don't want to hear that word". I think I've said it too much over the past months.







:

Today was even a good day, relatively speaking, and I just lost it tonight after dinner. My son just does not listen at all. I was trying to put the dishes in the d/w and there happened to be a laundry basket in the kitchen. I decided to put the baby in the basket with a pillow behind him and some toys. He loved it. Well, then my older DS had to start in. Pulling him around in the basket. I asked him to be gentle. No dice. I showed him how to do Peek-a-boo with him instead. No dice. And, btw, I very rarely put doing something around the house above just hanging with the kids. Really. My house is a mess, so this was not about me being maniacal about housekeeping. I asked him to find a book to read. Maybe he could read a book to the baby while he sat in the basket? No dice. I asked him to be gentle or he'd have to leave the kitchen. He just screams, "No! I don't have to leave the kitchen!". I try to get on his level and talk to him. He just says, "NO!" in my face.

I screamed at the top of my lungs for him to just let the baby alone for 5 freaking minutes. I did this twice, actually. My son cried a bit the first time, and then the 2nd time he held his face in his hands and cried and then went into the living room and started to read. I gave both of us a minute to settle down and then I went in to talk to him. I put my arms around him and told him I was sorry. That something has to change. That mommy makes mistakes and I don't want to yell. And I know I've done it so much lately. I told him that I need him to listen to mommy and for us both to listen to each other more. For us to work together as a team. He just basically yelled that he didn't have to talk to me. Fine.

Oh, and another thing. The other day when we were having a particularly bad moment I asked him if he wanted me to stay home with him anymore or if he wanted daddy to stay home and me to go to work b/c obviously it seemed like this arrangement wasn't working for either of us. Please don't tell me how horrible this is. I know it. Although I am admittedly a yeller at this point, I don't typically say these things. So, tonight in the middle of this issue with my son I said something stupid again about how if this continues I would have to leave. That I couldn't stay at home any more. He cried.

Thank GOD DH was going to be home within about 10 minutes. I literally handed the baby to him, said I desperately needed to leave the house, put on my jacket, and went for a ride in the car for about 15 minutes. I almost can't even tell you where I went b/c I was so clouded by anger and sadness. My son was asking where I was going. And I just couldn't answer. I just walked out the door. When I came back, dh had him changed into his PJs and when I entered the bedroom DS started to cry and said, "You go back downstairs!" He was crying and I had to use the bathroom and was peeing and trying to hold him in my arms at the same time. He pounded me HARD with his fists. HARD. Maybe he thougth I was really leaving. I don't know.

I don't know anything anymore. Really. I am (was?) an AP mom. He still sleeps with us. We nursed until he was 2 years 8 months old. I wore him and carried him and loved him and held him until he was 18 mos old. Seriously, up until 18-24 months, he never left my arms/side. We napped together, slept together, nursed together. I would feel guilty if I felt myself getting frustrated with him. I never imagined I'd be here. NEVER. Never imagined how cruel or harsh I can sound when yelling. Never imagined that my boy, my beautiful boy, could annoy me as much as he does. My DH and I are "normal" people. We like to think of ourselves as healhty adults that have a clue. And I RAGE at my boy. No, it doesn't go on for too long. But I have an inability to let it go. I try to apologize every time that I do something wrong, but in doing so, I feel that I am F&*($%G him up even more b/c I beg for him to talk to me afterward. I feel that I am confusing him. How can his loving mama be so horrible?

I realize that I'm rambling. I feel that I am a sham. That I shouldn't be able to walk around with the pain that I must have caused my son in this past 7 months. He is so challenging, so intense, so persistent. I am clearly, and I MEAN CLEARLY not cut out for this. I feel that they would be much better off, especially my older son, without me. I feel like walking swiss cheese. All holes inside. I don't know what to do. I try every day. So hard. I've never hit him, but I've grabbed his arms when I'm trying to talk to him. I've been rougher than I've wanted to be. I can't take any of this back. But how can I live with this? How? The shame of who I've become is overwhelming.

Thanks for listening.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Oh, God, Bears, I wish I could give you a real hug right now. Your children wouldn't be better off without you. You are a devoted (with a capital D) mother who has a very very challenging child.

As awful and perhaps 'un-AP' as this sounds, could you spend a weekend without your older son? Could he stay with your dh while you and the baby go somewhere?

You need to recharge. Somehow. Easier said than done, no doubt.

I wish I could do something IRL to be of help to you. You *are* such a good person, I can tell just by reading your posts. You are so hard on yourself. I wish your ds could just give you a break.

PM me if you ever feel the need to talk.

Will be thinking of you...


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Oh Dear Momma, I know how hard it is to feel like you are hurting the child you love so much. I know there is no easy answer. You know how you want to parent, you know what you don't want to say. If it were that easy the parenting shelf would only need one book, right? If people just could do what they need to do, the world wouldn't need therapists, just Dear Abbey. Honey, you need to be so much more gentle with yourself. I can't figure out what to say to you. My oldest was a horrible child. I know it was him first and then I went crazy with him. Nothing I did worked and I felt so powerless and out of control- just like he felt. I had 6 or 7 years of hell as his momma. You just need to know that intense children bring out all of our own personal issues. I always call Nate my PhD because he taught me more about myself, about children, about healing, about love and family than I could have learned any other way. A therapist that I recently met told me that her 17 year old son is in Detention for pulling a knife on her. The reason she told me was because she said she said that she knew I would understand the pain she was in. That came from being Nate's mom. I am speaking at a state children's mental health conference in April about being a mom. I don't quite know what my point is except- you hang in there. Just love him and love you and try and do a bit better tomorrow and breath.... in and out...in and out. Your child and you have a spiritual agreement to teach each other lessons that you can only learn in this intense relationship. You are learning them, and so is he. No one said it was going to be pretty. Love never is.

Ok- on a practical level. You need to figure out exactly what you feel like just before you do the kind of parenting that you don't want to do. You need to really identify what that first step is. The feeling that lets you know you are headed for trouble. Once you can identify that feeling- get the taste of it in your mouth, then you find a plan. It needs to be something really simple.... when you start to feel that stress you will-what? Maybe you could take the baby and nurse on the couch. Maybe you could pick a children's book that really means something to you that you will stop and read outloud. You have to figure this one out for you. But you need a plan for how you will interupt the pattern you have created. You can't just have a plan not to do something. You have to have a plan to do something. Something positive and calming and simple and ritualized. A way of making you stop and get back on track.

I am so impressed with your ability to be so honest and real about your struggle. You have no idea how many mommas you help by putting this on the table for all to see. Keep talking darling, we'll keep listening. My prayers are with you and yours tonight.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh Bears, we are in the middle of a move and I don't have time to reply properly, but I just wanted to say this:
Your son(s) would not be better off without you.
And I agree with The Lucky One. You sound depleted, emotionally and physically. This book, Mother Nurture is a good one which addresses some simple things to do to recharge. Can you slip away for a massage at least? A pedicure, something, anything in which YOU are nurtured.








:heart


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh MsMo, we were posting at the same time.
Thanks once again for your wonderful, useful, words.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

dalai_mama-Thank you. And thank you for the link. I actually have a massage gc that my DH gave me last mom's day that I haven't used yet. I may make that appointment soon.









TLO-Thank you for your kind words and support, as always.









And Maureen, what can I say?







Too bad we need ink for the printer. I need to post your words up on my kitchen cabinet. Such wise, wonderful words. I really appreciate you sharing your experience with your oldest son. And I already feel that my oldest, at 3, is my life-long challenge. And I thought I had already had my share of challenges. Your words about love never being pretty reallly hit home for me. My most valuable relationship with my DH has been challenging on so many levels, and I've learned the most EVER from being with him. I know it's not quite the same as your relationship with your kids, of course, but it's my only comparison.

I've spoken to an old therapist of mine about dealing with anger. (I am no longer in therapy, but I have a long-term relationship with my old therapist and we keep in touch). She talked a lot about breathing, changing the environment, etc. I think keying into what the trigger is is going to be the challenge. I can prep myself for the normal challenges. Like doing the postive self-talk stuff before we head to the grocery store, or on another outting. But when it just erupts after a trying moment at home, well, it seems to blindside me. Although in retrospect I realize that there were signs I could have listened to. I really like the idea of coming up with a plan TO DO something. Not NOT to do something. I think this has been an issue for me. One of my books talks about how you can't avoid anger, it's HOW you deal with it that matters. My son has a way of getting centered again and it's usually with a book. When things get dicey, as I like to call it, he retreats into a book. Perhaps I should go there with him? Should I bypass the tell-me-your-feelings stuff? It seems to make him nuttier. I don't know. That's an aside, I guess.

I am trying. Every day. That's all I can say tonight. And breathing helps. It's just so lonely. I don't know any other boy like mine IRL. I have a few close friends who are pretty honest about mothering, but one is far away and the other works FT. So, day in and day out, it's a rough go of it. What would I do without my MDC mamas? I don't know. Maureen-Thank you so much. I have more to say, but no more time...More when I can.


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

I don't feel like I have a ton to add and that other wise mamas have said some great things, but reading your posts really hits something in me and my heart goes out to you. I can understand the frustration and awfulness of as you put it, raging at your child, not wanting to do it, but feeling completely unable to stop if from going full steam ahead. I also understand feeling so angry and pushed to the limit that you are grabbing (not hitting, bc we don't do that, right??) your child hard enough that you want them to feel your pain and stop whatever god-awful thing that they are doing that is driving us right over the edge. And then feeling guilty about all of that.

I know that for me, my breaking point (which can come on in seconds it feels like sometimes) is when I personally am tapped out, feel like I am giving my all, more than I have to give sometimes, and it still isn't enough. I did not adjust well going from one child to two, and when DD2 was very young and all the help left, I got a sitter in, mainly to play with DD1 while I hung out with DD2. (I could have left her with both, but I was too cheap to give her both bc we paid her more for being with two. Seems rather funny to me now, but there ya go.) DD2 is now almost 15 months and things are much much better, but I can still feel overwhelmed and spent when dealing with two for an extended time. I also started back in therapy about a year ago, not specifically because of having two kids, but just seemed like a good time to start up again, and it has been very helpful.

I don't have any great advice, except see if you can't get some help to have more one-on-one either (or totally by yourself), but just wanted to chime in and say you are so not alone with this. This stuff is just hard and we weren't meant to do it alone.


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

Hi,
Hope things are going better for you - they always seem to for me right after an "I'm losing it" post









Just wanted to support you. Because this is what it's all about. Parenting. Being there. Doing it. No matter what. No matter how you feel.

You're doing it. Even though it's hard. Really hard. Even when you don't want to. You can't do it perfectly. But you still don't give it, bag it, forget it. You undertake the struggle. Everyday. Every stinkin' day.

You're awesome!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Moonshine-Thanks so much for your reply and support. I don't think I've handled this transition well at all, either. And it still feels like we're in transition most of the time and the baby is 7 mos old! When will we not be in transition??? I ended up hiring a "mom's helper" in September or October and it has been such a great thing. She comes 1x/week for only 2.5 hours while I am in the house. She primarily comes to hang out and help with my older DS. This has made a huge difference for me. We have little family support so it has been great to build this relationship with someone we trust.

I've been trying to be mindful to what my triggers are. And it is really hard to pinpoint. Really. Sometimes it just blindsides me. I know one of them, though, is any kind of hitting or hurting on my son's part. It enrages me.And even after 7 months he STILL doesn't get "gentle".

Another is being tired (isn't that all the time?). And I've realized today that another is not being listened to. And I'm not just talking about listening to me when I need him to change a behavior or do something differently. But I mean just listening to me and having a conversation. Obviously, I think I'm expecting a lot from a 3 year old if I want him to have a conversation with me. But just the little back and forth stuff doesn't even happen lately sometimes. And I guess it makes me sad and then I get angry. I think that I've done some damage here that I don't know how to repair. Okay, DS#2 is 7 months old and it didn't start getting bad until about month 2. So, for maybe 5 months I've felt like this rotten mother. And DS#1 will now put his hands over his ears if he hears me even asking him to do something in a serious voice. I don't know how to re-do all this.









momea-Thanks so much for the support. I don't know if I'm feeling better, yet. It seems like things have gone from bad to worse right now. Some moments are better than others.

I love him to the core of my being. But I just don't feel like I like anything about him lately. Plus, I don't like who I am when I'm mothering him. I just don't know. Yesterday was fairly good. This morning was good, late this afternoon sucked and tonight was worse. Is this just how it is?

How do I or will I know if I've damaged him with my yelling? OR the raging here and there? I really don't know if there is much worse then knowing that you've probably hurt your kid.

Thanks, ladies.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Bearsmama, thank you so much for posting this. When I read your original OP I literally cried because you were able to put in words the extreme frustration I was having with my 3yo. I am totally overwhelmed with the insanity. My dh and I had even been discussing the possiblitiy of beginning to spank, even though neither of us wants to, because it didn't feel like anything was working. Everyone IRL was suggesting spanking as a solution.

Our situation is a bit complicated by a minimally verbal 3yo, so there are times I wonder if he really even understands what we want and I know we don't always understand what he wants.

Knowing that much of his behavior is reasonably normal for his age gives me hope that I will eventually see results from gentle parenting. The main thing I need to do is not let my feelings escalate. I was getting so angry and frustrated with him I was scared of what I would do. Just knowing that the extreme testing of limits is typical helps a lot.

Oh, and the suggestion to have everything ready before baking...I had to kind of giggle at that from some of my experiences. When I did that, the result was not a smooth transition from one ingredient to another, it was him grabbing every ingredient and dumping it into the bowl in a frenzy. :LOL In under 1 minute he had flour, baking powder, salt, oil, water, eggs (and their shells) and other stuff all in the bowl, over the counter, on the floor, in his hair....you get the picture. I would rather have the meltdowns in between ingredients than that experience again.







:

If you want to get a commiseration laugh, read my blog for the days after I followed through on taking away his toys. Some of the other things I didn't mention were: dumping all the spaghetti noodles on the floor (and then making alphabet letters out of the sticks of spaghetti), flinging laundry, 'making eggs' all by himself (raw cracked eggs on my kitchen floor), taking pictures off the wall, wrapping yarn around his hand so tight it was turning his hand red and having to cut it off his hand only to have him repeat the behavior...and the meltdown when I took away the yarn, asking for water...drinking a few sips...dumping the rest on the floor and trying to play in the puddle, locking the bathroom door while he played in the sink, 'painting' with the yogurt he was supposed to be eating...and on and on. He also went through his entire wardrobe of clothes, twice. It was an insane week. While I was cleaning up one mess, he was making another.

When you read my blog post, you will know why I was so releived to find your post.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Bearsmama, you just have to trust me. Your ds will not be permanently scarred because you're having a tough time. Your yelling won't damage him.

Yeah, I know there are plently here who feel differently. But I have screamed. Woo-boy, have I! And, I have occassionally NOT liked one of mine, too.







:

Heck, somedays I don't much like my dh, and that's ok.

Ladies, teh reason baking sucks with little kids is....thery're too young! Forget setting out ingredients! Give them some playdough to 'bake' with. In fact, I got kits of playdoh stuff, my kids loved to 'cook' with it. Or I'd hand 'em a hunk of bread dough to play with. Or buy that nasty cookie dough in a roll from the store and let them put the cookies on the sheet. (Or mix em up yourself, then let them help.)

Try getting the helper you hired to waatch the babe and play a game, like, if I catch you, I'll tickle you, or bang-bang-bang those toy trucks.

Repaeat to yourself over and over, "I am a good mother, I am a good mother."

GO OUT. THe playground, a walk, the mall, somewhere different.

Know that you're doing a good job!


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

When you start seeds indoors, they often grow tall and spindley. Part of what makes plants grow strong is that they are exposed to the elements. Our children aren't hothouse flowers, they are sunflowers.... and sometimes we are the sun and sometimes we are the rain, and sometimes we are the wind.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I have to agree with Red, Bearsmama. Your yelling and having a hard time right now is not going to permanently damage your son. Yes, I know, other people aren't going to agree. But I really believe this. One of the things that makes mothering really hard is the idea that it's so easy to permanently scar our kids, to ruin them with our mistakes. But I don't think it's that easy to permanently scar our kids. Kids are incredibly resilient and are able to weather the storms of normal family life pretty well. While yelling is certainly not the ideal way to interact with your kids, it certainly is not the worst by any means. Not really productive but not horrible either.

It sounds like you're worried about the _cycle_ of yelling. And guess what? I think you'll find your way out and it will not be a big deal in the long run either. It's incredibly hard parenting a 3 year old and a baby.

Look, no mother is perfect. No mother has raised her kids without making mistakes. Especially the first kid. And no mother can be Mommy Sunshine _all_ the time. I would run screaming from any mother who claimed she could. Really. I don't believe it can happen.

Give yourself a break. You are human. And as a human you will make mistakes, feel frustrated, hate some of the things your kids do, have moments where you think you were nuts to have kids, and all kinds of things that aren't fun to feel. And you will still be a good mother. Because you love your son and are doing your best. Aside from doing the best you are able to at any moment, what more can you reasonably expect of yourself? Start where you are and do the best you can right now. That's all any of us can do.








And as far as baking goes, if you don't mind a mess it's lots of fun for kids to have their own mixing bowl and various ingredients to mix up their own "recipe" while you bake yours. It's a great sensory, squishy (if you let them have water), messy activity. My kids love to do this. It's horribly messy. Letting them play in the sink with water and some dishes and funnels and whatnot keeps them busy while I cook (or do various other things) too.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsMoMpls*
When you start seeds indoors, they often grow tall and spindley. Part of what makes plants grow strong is that they are exposed to the elements. Our children aren't hothouse flowers, they are sunflowers.... and sometimes we are the sun and sometimes we are the rain, and sometimes we are the wind.









And sometimes we're the thunderstorm. It's not bad for kids to see the full spectrum of our humanity. It teaches them what being human is all about.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Oh, ladies, thank you, thank you, thank you.









Jennifer-Thanks for your support. And it looks like so many of us have these feelings. Posting this stuff has really helped me.

Red-Ahhhh, what can I say? I've always responded to your BTDT words.
You are right about getting out. You are right about repeating "I am a good mother" to myself over and over and over. I need to do both.









MsMoPls-What a great way to look at this whole parenting ride. I read this to my DH and he said (and I quote): "Is this woman a prophet?". Seriously. All of your words have resonated with me so fully-so many times-and your replies and responses to this thread in particular are so inspirational and comforting to me. I've said this before on MDC, but I had a therapist friend say to me once, "Would you rather have a perfect mom or a REAL mom?" And, frankly, the perfect mom creeps me out. Although I do think that I've been a bit TOO real lately. I have a hard time with perspective sometimes. I think part of it is my own baggage, part of it is just the nature of parenting, and part is that I don't have much IRL BTDT wise support. My own mother is deceased, so I don't have that sort of perspective. I have IRL close friends, but it seems like we're all in the trenches together and seldom have the ability to step back and see the bigger picture and have that perspective that only comes from experience. I am very, very hard on myself in all aspects of my life. I don't know why I thought parenting would be any different.

Sledg-There's so much I want to say in response to your post. I can't tell you how much your words help me. Just like Maureen. I like what you said about "start(ing) where you are and do the best you can right now". I do think I can "get out" or make it out of this current cycle. Sorry, gtg. The baby is up. More tomorrow when I can...


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## momea (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
One of the things that makes mothering really hard is the idea that it's so easy to permanently scar our kids, to ruin them with our mistakes.

THANK YOU!

That would be a great thread all on its own.

Bearsmom - you know one of the things that I do sometimes is I think - I'm a crappy mom - horrible! Oh, well then, I'll do something wonderful, you know, kinda cancel out the horrible-ness of me. So I'll do something everyone agrees is wonderful and enriching for kids ... like baking. And then it's not a wonderful situation. It's a mess I can't handle. She doesn't behave. The baby wakes up and she starts crying because we have to interrupt our baking. I can't get the darn cookies in the oven. When I finally do she wants to eat them all and then we have another problem. And it turns into just another ... horrible situation. Okay.

Maybe if I do something else that's wonderful ... like ... gardening ...

And if I could just sustain wonderfulness for a certain number of days, and not mess up even a teeny bit, then, well, I'd be worthy to be called a "good mother"! And maybe my kid wouldn't be such so screwed up!

But how the heck did I get there? Now my kid's screwed up? Well, yah! Duh, If I'm a horrible yelling mom OF COURSE she's screwed up. And then, well, she looks pretty screwed up to me.

Maybe you could just play around with thinking you're the great mom some of the other people here clearly think you are. Just try it for a couple days. Try thinking that everybody with young ones lives like you do. Because I bet I bet I bet you think, every now and then, "Other People don't live like this!". Do you?

Good luck - it's tough for sure. You're not suppossed to be raising children pretty much by yourself. They are set up to be way more needy than that. It's like trying to get a lawnmower engine to power an Expedition. But we all just clunk along as best we can and everything is FINE. Life is still wonderful and they are alive and fed and warm at least - and loved!







It doesn't have to be "perfect"! And I bet if you tried to pin down what a perfect childhood looked like you'd have a bunch of nutty contradictions and total impossibilities. (OKay I think I'm talking to myself now.







)

Happy St. Patrick's!
Eve


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momea*
You're not suppossed to be raising children pretty much by yourself. They are set up to be way more needy than that. It's like trying to get a lawnmower engine to power an Expedition.

:LOL What a great analogy. That is so what it feels like.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies so if I'm repeating what someone else has said then just ignore.

Have you tried the Happiest Toddler on the Block? I saw the author on Dr. Phil helping a family who have a toddler that threw the worst tantrums. She would not do anything for her mom (but would for her dad when he got home from work). The mom was at her wits end.

The doc suggested that she repeat back to her daughter what she was saying (I'm sure the book explains it better, it's been a good year since I saw the show so my memory may not have all the details straight). So, the mom tried it. They showed her trying to get her daughter dressed for bed. The little girl started crying and saying no so the mom said "no, no, that's right you don't want to get dressed in your p.j.'s, no, no" and it was all very, very simple language. It was amazing. The little girl calmed down and let her mom dress her while she was telling her mom (not screaming or crying) that she didn't want her p.j.'s. It was all very peaceful because the mom was simply acknowledging her feelings without adding any "buts" into the conversation (i.e. "I know you don't want to get dressed but it's time for bed").

I completely understand wanting to talk to him about his feelings, what a great thing to help him deal with them as he grows up, but he might not be able to put a label to a feeling, yet. He might understand it better if you use simpler terms right now???

I hope this helps. Please keep us posted.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

momea-You're right-great analagy! Sometimes I feel that the engine that runs this mama machine is more like the tiny, inner workings of a toaster oven!







: I also think you're right about trying to pin down what a "perfect" childhood would look like. IT WOULD be full of "contradictions and impossibilities".

cheshire-Thanks. I think you're partially right about using the most simple terms right now. But that's often easier said than done. Words are SUCH a sticking point with my spirited, bright child (as I'm sure they are for most 3 year olds).

There's more i'd like to respond to here, but I'm fading once again.

I DO have to say that he had a HUGE meltdown this afternoon at the video store. GRAND MAL tantrum. Huge. And I remained calm throughout 98% of it. Until he resorted to being physical with me (trying to attach himself to my leg as we walked thru a parking lot while I held the baby). And then a subsequent refusal to get into his carseat (he's too big to "force" into gently, if that makes any sense). I tried to get over my feelings of shame pertty quick and I'm trying to see the big picture thru all this. I asked DH if he thought it was normal to have 1 good day out of 5. And he said, Yes, I think unfortunately, IT IS.

More to say. But have to go....


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Oooh, your kids tantrums give me goosebumps. It's from the memories!

I used to threaten, only in fun and in good moments, to sell the two oldest ones for three quarters, two dimes and a nickel. They'd gigglpe, but occassionally, I was only half kidding!

I love the idea of spending a few days telling yourself your a good mother and trying to believe it. Imagine! How powerful that image could become. You could believe! I'd give it a few weeks of really pushing it, though. Write yourself notes and stick them up around the house. Put up some for your DH, too.

I promise, once that ball of energy finds his outlet, it will get better. THer will be smaller outlets along the way. Legos, as soon as he's old enough, a big wheel, etc. But once he finds his passion, it will ease. I'm willing to bet, from my comfy seat on the side lines, that he'll pour himself into his hobbies and barely notice you!

You say you remained calm throughout 98% of his tantrum. THen what? Did you beat him? Or just yell at him to chill and sit? What do you think 'perfect', but not freaky perfect, mothers would do? Just continue to softly encourage the raging monster to get in the car? (referring to the temper as a monster, not your son.)

This is a great thread. I'm impressed with so much of the advice and support given here.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Just a quick one here. Red-I've read a lot in the past about positve affirmations (a la Stewart Smalley). And about how it really works. And when I'm in a good space, I can remember to do it. You figure, all the garbage we feed ourselves ABOUT ourselves in doing damage to us, why WOULDN'T the positive replacements make sense? Or in other words, ya gotta fake it to make it. Once you've faked it for a while, the new skin will feel more like you, and not some imposter's skin. Hoping my rambling makes sense. Getting out to enjoy this gorgeous day in the east. More when I can....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

What an amazing thread. Thank you, thank you Bearsmama for starting this! I just found it today and it couldn't have come at a better time. Opening yourself up like this has truly helped me and I'm sure many others here.

The last few days we've been having too many episodes like the ones you describe. Fortunately it is only recent that I seem to be "losing control" of the situation, but my feelings are alot like your own. Wondering where I've gone wrong. Blaming myself. And I admitted to my DH that lately I haven't enjoyed being with my DD, and your eloquent, sad words about how THAT makes us feel well...you just spoke from my heart too.

sledg, you really hit a huge issue for me when you said

Quote:

And oddly-at least I find it odd-the kids don't always seem to know they're hungry/thirsty/tired or at least don't always communicate it even at age 3 or 5-they just get kind of wiggy.
I'm ashamed to admit that I often forget to feed DD during the day.







I guess I always assume she'll tell me if she's hungry (because sometimes she does) and then when she's acting "wiggy" DH will ask me if she's had lunch. Way to make me feel like a double failure, huh? Not only is my kid out of control but I can't even remember to feed her. So of course I wig out on DH for implying I suck as a mom







(poor guy, he's been so amazing too).

oceanbaby, as usual you speak to my life so well. and thank you for pointing this out to me...

Quote:

I did want to mention that I have come to realize that it probably is too much to ask a 3yo to explain themselves or why they are behaving a certain way. I have often thought about how I sometimes do things that I know I'm not supposed to do, and I can't really always explain why I did it, other than I just wanted to. And I am 33 years old!
I seem to have gotten into the habit of asking DD "did you hear what I just said" (when we all know it's not about being deaf) or asking her to explain "why are you screeching" (when she's likely unaware that she is doing so), etc. I know I needed to break this recent (bad) habit but your words helped me to nail it down.

Quote:

It took me a long time to figure out that sometimes it's best just to not engage with my dd when she's upset. She's just too intense sometimes. It happens less now than when she was younger, but it still happens. For a long time I couldn't figure out why saying all the right GD things, a la "How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen" and every other book I've read, just didn't work to resolve the problem in the heat of the moment. I kept thinking if I just acknowledged her feelings and said the right things in the right way, she'd stop flipping out or saying no or whatever she was driving me to the brink with.
Thank you sledg for this. This paragraph hit me stronger than anything else here. In my head I know that kids can't learn anything in the middle of an outburst. But somehow I end up in the exact same situation, trying to validate and mirror her feelings and being met with a shrieking "NO!!", then wondering what I ever did to make her feel that being angry was wrong or something. So many people here have talked about not engaging them in the intesity. Sort of a la Anthony Wolf (Secret of Parenting). But it is so hard for me to let go. Validation is something I really lacked as a child, and still have strong memories of that, how it made me feel to think what I was feeling was "wrong" therefore somehow *I* was wrong. It's a huge part of my parenting (and my relationship with DH) to validate. So when I try to detach I'm conflicted inside, worried so much that I'm letting her down, or abandoning her. dharmamamma said

Quote:

I remind myself that just because my daughter is crying or angry or upset doesn't mean I am doing something wrong. If my daughter falls on the floor because I'm not getting her yogurt THIS INSTANT, when I am going to the bathroom or changing her brother's diaper, I remind myself that this is her issue and, at three, she can be expected to wait 2 or 3 minutes. I ignore her emotional outburst and I don't allow her tornado of emotions to make me feel guilty. I have found that the less time I devote to her raging emotions, the more likely she is to express her emotions constructively. I don't mean that I ignore her emotions, but I do try to ignore inappropriate expressions of emotion.
While my gut tells me it would work well with my DD, my heart says "she needs me" and I feel I"m abandoning her when she's down. I know I'm going to have to tackle this some more. Maybe I'll start a thread on it in the GD forum. I'd love some input from anyone here, though. How do I balance "detach" or "disengage" with "what you are feeling is okay" and "I still love you even if you are screeching".

Along those same lines, I read that using separation as discipline tactic is really bad, b/c you foster a fear of abandonment in the child. Using attachment as a weapon, so to speak. So when DD approaches me screaming while I"m nursing DS, who is very sensitive to loud noises, I have to get up and walk away, and just tonight she ran after me screaming "mama no go away" and hitting me. Tell me THAT isn't a child who is fearing that I'm leaving her. At least, that is what I'm seeing and it makes me feel very wrong inside.

Anyways, there is just so much wonderful wisdom in this thread. So many words expressed that sound like my own thoughts. It's been really great to read all of this. I hope we can keep the discussion going...thanks again Bearsmama.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

piglet68, a suggestion? Could you cover your son's ears and WHISPER back to your daughter, "Oh, DD, what do you need?" Very few kids will yell if you're whispering.

Of course, there's always the exception.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:

I'm ashamed to admit that I often forget to feed DD during the day.







I guess I always assume she'll tell me if she's hungry (because sometimes she does) and then when she's acting "wiggy" DH will ask me if she's had lunch. Way to make me feel like a double failure, huh? Not only is my kid out of control but I can't even remember to feed her. So of course I wig out on DH for implying I suck as a mom







(poor guy, he's been so amazing too).
I forget to feed mine sometimes too. Then I remember







it's an hour past lunchtime, they're hungry!

Quote:

In my head I know that kids can't learn anything in the middle of an outburst. But somehow I end up in the exact same situation, trying to validate and mirror her feelings and being met with a shrieking "NO!!", then wondering what I ever did to make her feel that being angry was wrong or something. So many people here have talked about not engaging them in the intesity. Sort of a la Anthony Wolf (Secret of Parenting). But it is so hard for me to let go. Validation is something I really lacked as a child, and still have strong memories of that, how it made me feel to think what I was feeling was "wrong" therefore somehow *I* was wrong. It's a huge part of my parenting (and my relationship with DH) to validate. So when I try to detach I'm conflicted inside, worried so much that I'm letting her down, or abandoning her.
I have felt that way too, when I "detach" -which I think is a loaded word that makes me feel bad so I try to use "disengage" instead, and I try to remember that I'm not disengaging from _my daughter_, but _from an interaction_ with her that isn't working. Really, it's just giving them the space to calm down _then_ giving them the validation they need when they're calm enough to receive it. Some kids need the delay. My son does fine with the validation in the heat of the moment, my daughter needs to calm down first.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
How do I balance "detach" or "disengage" with "what you are feeling is okay" and "I still love you even if you are screeching".

Well, when I need to just disengage I stay nearby and let my daughter know I'm there and we'll talk (or "figure it out" or "solve the problem") when she's feeling more calm. If she'll let me hold her (and the other kids aren't in need of something so I am able to hold her-usually I can find a way) or rub her back or something to help her calm down I will. Sometimes I have to just be nearby offering reassuring verbal contact and listen to the emotions come out. That's hard. But then when she's calm we cuddle and do all the feelings validation then maybe some problem solving, or maybe the problem solving waits until even later (depends on her feelings and needs once she's calm).

I agree with Red's suggestion of whispering or speaking very softly. Sometimes that works like magic. Sometimes a little joking helps too, at least for my dd. It can stop her from escalating into a full-blown storm of emotional outburst, then we can talk about her feelings.

And this really is one fantastic thread! Thank you again, Bearsmama.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I wonder how Bearsmama is doing today. We are having an amazing day. DD has been practically perfect. Oh, she tried the screeching "NO!" thing a couple of times, but I didn't take it personally, and I didn't blame myself for making her do that. And I resisted the urge to "do something" about it. I simply gave her a disapproving look and repeated my request calmly. It seems to be working really well, as the intensity level has not risen at all. Sure, it's still relatively early in the day, lol. Anyways, thanks so much for this thread! I really thought about it alot last night, and how I've been taking it all too personally, then responding with my own intensity that just makes everything worse.

As for the screeching while I"m nursing DS. Well, I can't cover his ears b/c I don't have any free hands. But when she started getting noisy today while I was nursing him and I could see it was startling him and interfering with his nursing, I remembered to whisper as you guys suggested. And I told her that if she couldn't use a quiet voice I'd have to stand up. I realized that the problem last night when I walked away and she just lost it, is that I simply said "I'm leaving". I think that was the wrong choice of words. Instead, I'll tell her "I have to stand up" and then "I have to go to the bedroom" rather than saying "I can't be around you when you are...." or "I'm leaving".

Normal tantrums aren't usually a problem. When she's upset and cries loudly, throws herself on the floor, that I have no problem handling. What changed these last few days (I realized after thinking about what you said, sledg) is that instead of her triggering my sympathy with crying, she was being angry/screeching/defiant and it wasn't triggering sympathy, but rather triggering my own defenses and making me angry, etc. So I'm trying to digest that, so next time if she gets that way I can "disengage". And sledg, what you said about it being "from the interaction" and not from HER really made sense. Thanks. I think I just need to choose my words carefully when I tell her what I'm doing. So instead of "I can't be around you when you are screaming" I'll say "when you are ready for hugs I'll be sitting on the sofa" or something like that.

Anyways, thanks again everybody for this thread.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Just have to say that this thread takes me back! Right back to when my dd1 was four and dd2 was an infant. Ooohhhh..... It is hard to be so frustrated that you feel you don't like your beloved child. I know.

But I think this sometimes happens to us - the transition from one child to two is HUGE! We are trying to get our hormones back in order; the older child is doing so much growing up and wanting independence but not quite knowing if he can pull it off then being frustrated himself... The baby is sweet and little and easy to love. The older one is talking back and throwing fits and being defiant - where is that sweet child he used to be?

Mine are now 8, 4 and 1 (yes, we signed up for that program again - even after colic, PPD, and a situation similar to the one you describe). It is far behind us now. In fact, I don't even think of it at all - until reminded by this thread. We are all fine. We are bonded. I am far from a perfect mother but I think I've done a good job. My oldest (who I had a hard time liking through that phase - PLEASE remember that this will get better!!!!) did get through it - the hard part was maybe six months? - and is now a bright, social, well-adjusted third grader. We kiss good night. We go out shopping just the two of us (it is scary how early they start liking clothes shopping!)

My advice is to (this will go over like a lead balloon on MDC but it got me through) drop the AP standards and just do what you can do to get through this. Take time away - each day if you need it! Find groups IRL where you can go out and vent and have a drink (or ice cream cone or whatever your thing is). A moms club or garden club or book club or quilting circle or whatever! Anything that you like where you can have some social interaction that doesn't include your children - something just for you. Is there a neighbor who you could walk with each night when your dh gets home? A friend you could scrapbook with one night a week (at HER house!) Some time, each day sounds needed, where you don't have the responsibility, when you can have a break and not worry about it and let it go for a bit.

And really, please, don't think this is forever or that he is being damaged. Kids are resilient. This is just a hard, hard phase - for both you and him! Let him have some stuff that is just his - does he go to preschool? Would be a break for you and something "big boy" just for him, that baby didn't get to do. Try to have at least once a week when dh keeps baby and you get some one on one time with ds1 (I know it may not sound like something you want to do but someone once told me that the worse they are being, the more they need you - sucks since they make you so mad and you just want away from him.... I do remember!) as well as your dh and your ds1 going off form some one on one time. You will not find anyone more pro-sibling than I am - but there is a big transition for many families. But years down the road, this will be a distant memory - you will all make it! Do what you can and when you can't, just walk away and take a break. Call in your sister or neighbor or friend and ask her to take your ds1 for a playdate for a couple of hours. Get enough sleep if at all possible - I am always shorter and less able to cope when low on sleep.

We have been there. We made it. So will you. We are all thinking of you! And do remember, while in Target mid-tantrum (him, not you!), no one who has had kids is judging you; they are remembering how hard it sometimes can be and how lucky they are that it is not them today!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
What changed these last few days is that instead of her triggering my sympathy with crying, she was being angry/screeching/defiant and it wasn't triggering sympathy, but rather triggering my own defenses and making me angry, etc.

That's a really helpful realization. I just realized a few weeks ago myself that the problem around here isn't the kids' behavior, it's my reaction to it. I'm still working on figuring out why some of these things are making me feel so irritated or impatient or angry, but realizing that it's my reaction that's problematic is so helpful. Now I can work on seeing them and their needs more clearly rather than through the lens of my own issues and emotions, and then I can really work on a response that meets their needs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
My advice is to (this will go over like a lead balloon on MDC but it got me through) drop the AP standards and just do what you can do to get through this.

I would agree with this. I think it can be helpful to drop the standards for awhile and just listen to what you and your children really need to get through this moment, this hour, or this day in a reasonably healthy manner. I've had some of the best days when I'm listening to my heart and my children, thinking of the kind of person I'd like them to be when they grow up and thinking about what kind of relationship I want to have with them.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Will this damage our children?

Well, on the one hand, yes I think it can. I'm sure we all have those memories, that one fleeting moment that was likely insignificant in our parents' minds that we still remember, that still haunts us. A feeling of rejection, fear, shame, etc. I do think that we can do damage simply by yelling, or making a mistake.

BUT....and there's a big "BUT" to this.

I also realized, that my style of parenting will allow my child to work through this. They won't need years of counselling, a succession of failed marriages, or a stroll down addiction lane to make them see that they have an issue, and they won't need years to resolve it. They will be able to come to me and say "hey mom, you may not remember but.....and it really made me feel bad". Or maybe they will talk to someone and the realization of where their "issue" is coming from will appear, and they can come right to me and talk to me about it and get closure/resolution. My LLL leader has two DD's 16 and 21 and she says this is the case for her girls.

In fact, when I think about it, it would be pretty weird if we could be "perfect" parents. And I wonder if there is truly *anybody* out there who doesn't harbour some issues harking back to "slipups" on the part of their parents, even the most GD of parents. So while I do think that our mistakes CAN leave their mark on our kids, I also believe that it's nothing they won't be able to work through, and without having to trudge through years of denial, buried hurt, and dysfunctional family relationships before they get there.

This is what I tell myself when I feel I've screwed something up.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Don't be afraid to be a b*tch.

Seriously. I spent most of my dd's first four years of life trying to tiptoe, tiptoe, tiptoe around her relentlessly negative behavior. I'd tiptoe tiptoe tiptoe until I would explode because I couldn't take it any more.

It's like a release valve... if you let a little bit of steam out at a time, during each situation that arises, it won't build up to "dangerous" levels (and I'm using that term loosely, of course... I know you don't literally become "dangerous").

I just refuse to take verbal abuse now, and I'm not scared to let it be known. I used to be scared to let it out, because some part of me was convinced my kid wouldn't like me or something. But now they get a warning then a consequence. My 2 yo who will be three in May stops at one warning now because he knows I mean business. It can be rough for the first week or so, because mommy is no longer paddy-assing and they don't know what hit them. But after that, things get calmer because they feel secure that they have definitive boundaries and guidelines... a feeling of safety that they are not the ones in charge anymore. That can be very scary for a small child.

I'm sure there are mothers out there who can put up with this behavior and not go totally crazy, but I'm not one of them. And if I have to choose between putting my foot down and enjoying my time with my kids or ending up in the local mental institution, I choose to put my foot down.

Good luck!


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, I forgot to add... I was exactly like my very high spirited daughter is when I was young.

However, I was spoiled rotten and never given firm boundaries or consequences.

I'm still dealing with the fallout from this at age 26. I expect to get my way or all hell breaks loose! I wish someone would have put their foot down with me when I was growing up... instead, my poor husband had to be my "parent" and let me know that my emotional outbursts and negative behavior were abnormal and unacceptable.

Just some food for thought. I've read so many of your posts here before, and you are such a good momma. You know what's right and you know what needs to be done. Trust yourself.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Everyone,
It's taken me a few days to have the time to get back on line and return to this thread. Yesterday and this morning I was able to check some of the posts quickly, but no time to reply until now. And I should share with you that my DH is out tonight, my older DS is happily asleep in HIS OWN BED and the baby has been in a teething-induced sleep since 5 pm. What's going on???







:

Not sure where to begin tonight. So, I'll begin at the beginning...

Piglet-







I'm sorry that you've been going through some of this stuff, too. But happy that you've found soooo much of what's written here helpful. The replies here have taken on a life of their own and the wisdom and comfort provided to me has been amazing. I agree with Sledg (on SOOO many things!) about learning to NOT engage with our kids when they are in the middle of an outburst or tantrum. This is a toughie for many of us AP mamas b/c it seems to fly in the face or some of our shared "ideals". I remember being a bit jealous of my DH when we started to hit some of this discipline stuff b/c he had an ability to "detach" from our DS in a healthy way, if that makes any sense. Yes, you could say that he's the dad and of course he can detach a bit better (I realize that this may sound a bit sexist, but this has been my experience). But I started trying to really watch how this happens. It seemed like my DS was able to have his "storm" and then have it blow over easier when we b/c less engaged. Believe me, I haven't been that successful at this or I wouldn't be posting this thread! But there MUST be something to this healthy detachment thing.

I think I have a tendency to be a little COdependent on my DS's feelings. And that's not healthy. I have to learn to separate from him. Physically sometimes and emotionally. I also have a tendency to be my own harshest critic. So these two traits together are a bad combination.

Oh, getting back to the engaging/disengaging thing-When my son would have these big meltdowns I would (and still do!) try to get on his level, talk to him about his feelings, yadda, yadda, yadda. Well, sometimes I would get real close and he would hit me. Yes, hitting is unacceptable, but I think I *might* want to hit me, too, in that situation. I hope YKWIM.

And BTW, Piglet, we had a good day-and a good day yesterday, too. I am watching my intensity level (thanks, sledg). Also, I'm realizing that cutting myself some slack, not beating myself up over everything, and trying to actually put into practice all the stuff I *think* about constantly. Like some postive self-talk, etc (I said to myself today when I saw an incredibly loooong day ahead of me, "I can handle anything that comes my way"-and it stopped some of the negative stuff that happens in my brain) ALl goes a loooong way to help things.

BUT-all that said, today my son was being totallly irrational. I mean, not even normal 3 year old irrational, but just nuts. We just came home and I had to pee like a racehorse. I actually had to race home in the car b/c I had to go so badly. When we got in the door, DS was clear that I had to immediately go to the bathroom. Well, I unlocked us, and ran upstairs with the baby to pee. And DS threw a fit-saying, "But I want you to do something Mommy!!!!" over and over and over again. And he was trying to block me from accessing the stairs and the bathroom! I was not happy and I just ignored him and shut the bathroom door so he couldn't enter. I didn't acknowledge his feelings or any of that. It made no sense! I had to attend to a bodily function! I sort of made a joke of it afterwards, like, "honey, mama's got to peeeeeeeeYou can't prevent a mama from peeeing!"

candiland-I understand what you are saying. I am not afraid of saying NO anymore. Just plain, NO. Yes, I try to give more yesses than NOs, but sometimes it's okay to just say NO. I also agree with what you say about the "release valve" thing. This is my problem many days. I ignore some of the stuff that bugs me so much that when some other little thing happens I blow up b/c I have not let it be known that I was losing it. Tonight I actually managed to say to DS, "I am getting tired, DS, and grumpy. I would appreciate you listening to me right now".

For some reason, candiland's post makes me think of a conversation I had with a close friend of mine recently. We were talking about someone we know whose mother screamed at all three of her daughters almost non-stop when they were kids. Ironically to us, they are all really close as adults. Like best friends. They adore their mom and she them. My friend's theory is that what really kills a relationship is indifference. I'm not saying that what this mom did was right, but I guess it makes me realize that we all care so much. And maybe, sometimes, that's enough.

And candiland-Thanks so much for your kind words.

Well, all I can say is that I'm trying in a DIFFERENT way. Not just trying hard, but doing it differently. Trying to take things day to day. Trying now, to see the big picture, the hope of a future relationship with my son, as MsMoPls has said before. There's more I want to say, but i fear that I'm rambling. I want to thank everyone again for the tremendous response to my thread and your kind, supportive words, as always.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

My sister has a spirited child (1 out of 3). She doesn't use the term, but based on things I've read, that's what I'm guessing . . .anyway, here's what she does:

When DD has a tantrum, my sister goes into a mini-trance of being ultra calm. She doesn't try to change her DD's mind or be rational or anything. She tries to be the least reactive as possible.

She doesn't tiptoe (in a pp's words) around issues (in the sense that she's just herself) but she does do things to prevent tantrums (she knows what sets her DD off). She isn't afraid of saying no, as others suggested.

Sometimes, when it's appropriate, she sings the same little song to her DD. (I'll have to ask her about this again.) She sings back what her DD wants.

My sister doesn't blame herself or feel bad about times when she gets frustrated. While I don't always agree with how she handles things, I do admire her for not beating herself up about everything. She doesn't take her DD's actions personally.

My sister notices that things like sickness or, of course, being tired, make things far worse. True for all children, but esp. for those that are more spirited to begin with. Just knowing "why" there are more tantrums on a certain day/week helps.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Kirsten-I was all set to reply to you!!! Duhhhhh! Thanks so much for your perspective. I absolutely agree now that the transition to two just HAS to be rough for everyone, doesn't it? ( I never understood, even before having our 2nd, how some people would say, "Oh, DS just ignores the baby".) I'm happy to hear that you now think of all this as a "distant memory". I think you are also right about having something that's mine. I don't have that right now. And I think that's just integral to being whole person.

A little digression here, but I just heard an interview on NPR with the author of a new book on motherhood (I forget the title), Judith Werner. She talked a bit about how she used to live in France when her kids were little and how there's an understanding there that motherhood is just a piece of who you are as a woman. Like, our obsession and anxieties are really, purely American. And the idea that we have little for ourselves or that motherhood is our whole life is just nutty.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I cannot tell you how much this thread has meant to me. I almost went insane for the first six months after my second daughter was born, and (with one or two exceptions) all I got was advice from parents of one calm child who didn't have a clue what was going on. They meant well, but they had no btdt advice like those of you with a very spirited older child and a new baby.

My older dd is very intense, intelligent, and spirited. We were almost never apart until Rosie was born. We went through an incredibly difficult time until I decided to ignore a lot of advice and do something drastic -- I put Gracie behind a baby gate or in a playpen until she could calm down whenever she was aggressive with the baby. This way, I didn't yell, get freaked out and furious, etc., but I just calmly lifted her over the gate until she would agree to play nicely. She was in view or in the room, but she just could not have physical contact with the baby so that the baby would be safe from assault or teasing. This was a major thing for us, because I had never told her no, had never restricted her, etc. I believed that time outs were shaming and punitive, tantamount to child abuse, and here I was doing a modified version.

I found that a lot of behavior really was aggressive and was disguised as play, like the old swishing the fist in front of the infant's face, feet by the face accidentally on purpose kicking in the face, etc., etc., etc. So the laundry basket incident would have received one warning and then a quick lift over the baby gate or into the playpen, and she would have had to remain there until she confirmed that she would not do it again. If another parent was there, Gracie would be held or comforted in arms, but I was often alone and, on those occasions, she would have to be there by herself for a few minutes.

The acts of aggression towards the baby were dramatically reduced. I did reassure her that it was OK to want to hurt the baby, but not OK to do it, but I don't think she grasped the distinction (she was much younger then).

Now my eighteen month old baby is starting to go after my three year old!!!!

But anyway, our entire relationship improved dramatically because a lot of my irritation with her was making her act out more. My irritation at that time was due to one thing: anxiety that she would hurt the baby. This leaked over into other areas of our relationship, and I think that made her more aggressive to the baby. It just calmed everything down to have this real boundary.

I think having closely spaced sibs is more challenging than twins when it comes to worrying about one kid hurting the other. You can leave two six week old babies sleeping peacefully to go use the bathroom, but you can't leave a spirited three year old and a six week old baby alone for a second.

Hugs, it will get so much easier in a few months.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Inez, this freaked me out a bit . . .my niece, the one I just posted about (my sister's one and only spirited child) was born on your DD #1's birthday-- same day, same year. Hmmmm!!!! Maybe it's all "in the stars!"


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## Rollermommy (Jul 1, 2002)

Dont mean to butt in on your thread here but what is SID? Everything I pull up is something about SIDS. This seriously sounds like my 2yr old DD. Hugs and lots of love to you mama. I hope I make it to three :LOL


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, my, I just re-read my own post and I sound very aggressive! Sometimes putting emotions onto a computer screen doesn't transfer that well.....

I'd like to amend my very first sentence to mean "firm". :LOL

Everyone goes through trials and tribulations of parenthood. It's my personal belief that when our children choose us (or vice versa), they are naturally attracted to the darkest parts of ourselves that need the most work!

For example, I held very strong ideals and beliefs and felt like an utter, total failure that my life and parenting weren't living up to those ideals of perfection. But this has forced me to be a lot less judgemental about other's issues and has made me integrate my strong positives and strong negatives to create a stronger, more balanced person.

Think of it like a snake shedding its skin... there are parts of you that will die off and some things that will grow anew. The dying off an old part of ourselves or our belief systems is very painful, confusing, and difficult. And in parenting, it happens time and time and time again. Some people pay thousands of dollars for meditations, gurus, and energy work and it happens to us parents without us even wanting it to! :LOL


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

BUT-all that said, today my son was being totallly irrational. I mean, not even normal 3 year old irrational, but just nuts. We just came home and I had to pee like a racehorse. I actually had to race home in the car b/c I had to go so badly. When we got in the door, DS was clear that I had to immediately go to the bathroom. Well, I unlocked us, and ran upstairs with the baby to pee. And DS threw a fit-saying, "But I want you to do something Mommy!!!!" over and over and over again. And he was trying to block me from accessing the stairs and the bathroom! I was not happy and I just ignored him and shut the bathroom door so he couldn't enter. I didn't acknowledge his feelings or any of that. It made no sense! I had to attend to a bodily function! I sort of made a joke of it afterwards, like, "honey, mama's got to peeeeeeeeYou can't prevent a mama from peeeing!"









Here is the "rational" that I see. 3 year olds are starting to face the reality that they are not the center of the universe. That you are not just an extension of him- like an arm or a leg that exists to serve him. By telling him that you had a real, human need you actually scare him. (I mean thats ok, he needs to learn this.) He starts worrying that if you aren't there just to serve him, if you have your own needs and on top of everything there are other people he has to share you with, then maybe there just won't be enough for him. The lesson we are teaching our 3 year olds is that we acknowledge their dependence but we also acknowledge their independence and strength.

One thing I see us doing is only putting our needs first when it is a crisis- like really needing to pee. We need to give them a chance to learn patience and delayed gratitude when we aren't in crisis. Sometimes, when we are at our best- rested and calm and actually available, we should ask them to wait. Not for hours, but for minutes. Not like setting them up, testing them, but just "Honey, I will get you a cracker as soon as I am done posting."









Then if they don't handle it really well, we have the patience to help them wait. See what I mean? So many times we expect them to be patient and understanding just when we aren't either of those things.

Oh- and gaiamom- SIDS is a kid who has sensory integration issues. They are overly sensitive to their physical world. I'm sure you can find a lot of help here on that issue- it isn't my area of expertise... my goal in life is to erase unnecessary mother guilt where ever it grows!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Maureen-I think you are on to something that's been an issue for me and I would guess many other mamas: finding balance in all things. I think in my early months and years of my oldest son's life (okay, maybe months is a better word to use when talkign about a three year old) everything was ssoooooo focused on him. In fact, I didn't really even know how to do anything other than focus on him. And of course, this is normal and healthy and all that with a baby (especially being an AP parent), but at some point, pulling back, or trying to incorporate more of YOU into your mothering, I think is really key. And I don't think I've always been good at this. I think that I was (and am) sort of co-dependent on my son's feelings and stuff sometimes. It's not the healthiest way to be, but it's the way it is. Okay, and you may ask HOW does this relate to my peeing thing? Well, I don't think I've taught HIM balance. And I'm not patient with myself, so why and how can I expect him to wait or be patient?

inezyv-Thanks for your reply. It's good and comforting to hear your story. I think I, too, that a lot of my irritation has come from fearing that my older DS would hurt the baby. In fact, for many months, I couldn't trust him to be gentle AT ALL, but lately, he is getting better. Someone at LLL described her experience to me once of having her second child and said that she "hated" her older son when she had a baby. And that all her hormones told her to protect the baby. It was like biologically based. I was finally getting it a bit and hearing that someone else had these feelings about their own child was very comforting.

candiland-Thanks. I understood what you were saying and I didn't find it aggressive. In fact, I really like your analogy about a snake shedding its skin. I feel the same way right now. I have had to address things about myself in the past 7 months (heck, in the past 3years-but most apparently in the past 7 months) that have been really difficult. I feel many days like a failure as a mom and a person. It takes me "shedding" that every day to continue. I tend to be a wallower, so I have to literally pull myself out of these negative moods.

Miz-Thanks for the hugs.

gaia-Thank you~ Do you mean three years old or three children?!?









Not like this is BDC (bears dot commune), but we had one of those Lord of the Flies kinda days today. It's directly related to not having any plans today whatsoever. Being at home all day is our kiss of death. I yelled some today. I'm not proud of it. But I'm working on getting over it. Tomorrow is a new day.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Just checking back in on this thread. Life with DD has returned to normal now that I've got a handle on my emotions. It's constantly amazing to me how much power there is in a calm, gentle voice. The shrieking has almost completely disappeared from our household now that I'm not reacting to it. Although DD is still using the phrase "out of control!" once in a while.









I just wanted to post my success to boost those of you still struggling. I guess it was easier for me b/c I used to always be like that with DD, and then somehow without me realizing it I sort of spiralled away into this cycle of her yelling, me getting "tough", and her reacting. She's not used to that, so I think she's happy too that mama is "back to normal".









Hugs, Bears.


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Quote:

I think in my early months and years of my oldest son's life (okay, maybe months is a better word to use when talkign about a three year old) everything was ssoooooo focused on him. In fact, I didn't really even know how to do anything other than focus on him. And of course, this is normal and healthy and all that with a baby (especially being an AP parent), but at some point, pulling back, or trying to incorporate more of YOU into your mothering, I think is really key. And I don't think I've always been good at this. I think that I was (and am) sort of co-dependent on my son's feelings and stuff sometimes. It's not the healthiest way to be, but it's the way it is. Okay, and you may ask HOW does this relate to my peeing thing? Well, I don't think I've taught HIM balance. And I'm not patient with myself, so why and how can I expect him to wait or be patient?
Bears, I'm sure it's hard for most mothers to find that balance, but I think for us mothers of high-needs babies/toddlers/children it is especially hard.

I have read The Continuum Concept and I very much enjoyed it and got alot out of it. However, the parts about not being child-centered, well, they just made me laugh. With my ds1 we couldn't NOT have been child-centered. He would have been a total and utter emotional wreck from day one had we just sat back and continued with our lives with him just added to the mix. We HAD to focus on him nearly 100% of the time. And if you've never had a high high high needs child, there is no understanding what I'm talking about. And Bears, I know you understand.

And you are right, it is hard to pull back. That focus takes over and like you said, it is nearly impossible to incorporate yourself into the daily routine. And it's so hard with those spirited kids because they are just soooooo needy.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Kirsten- I'm happy to hear that you now think of all this as a "distant memory". I think you are also right about having something that's mine. I don't have that right now. And I think that's just integral to being whole person.

I tell you, I would just be absolutely insane and a really awful mom if I didn't have breaks, a little time away, some time that is mine where I am not responsible for anyone but myself. I don't know how anyone can be on call for the emotional and physical needs of other people 24/7/365! Draining... I just get rejuvenated by that time for me.

What do you like to do? Anything that you can look forward to will work. A book club? Bunko? Scrapbooking? Training for a marathon - (not my idea of fun but I have friends who love it). Recipe club? I like to do adult get togethers with other moms who understand what it is like.

Was just wondering if you have had a chance to do a weekly (or monthly - baby steps....) mom time away. Is your dh supportive of that? Mine would rather I was home but understands that I am so much happier and nicer to be around when I've had a bit of me time. Tonight I went grocery shopping by myself - heaven!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Piglet-Thanks again for the support and







I really, really DID used to be a fairly calm mama. Really. All this junk has really been kicked into high gear since baby#2 arrived. The power of a calm voice, or a monotone voice or reaction is just amazing. I remember my ped stressing to me when we discussed discipline issues that remaining almost monotone and staying calm was key. Now, of course, that is so much harder to put into practice then I ever imagined it would be.

Kirsten-Yes, I unfortunately (ha!) have loads of interests, so I could definitely find many, many things to focus on. The issue right now is that the baby is still too young for me to feel comfortable leaving. I can definitely foresee a time in the future when I can work some kind of regular break into my schedule. And not just a break, but something I enjoy doing. I absolutely agree that for me, time to myself is key. It's interesting that I've always been this way-I like alone time, I really, really thrive on it. And for some reason after becoming a mom I start wondering "Hmmmm, why do I feel this way after 2 weeks straight (or whatever it is) with nothing fun for myself and no alone time?" It's like DUH! Of course this would get to anyone, I think, but if you realize that your personality has always thrived on some alone time, well, it's integral to work it back in.

Ahhh, TLO, what can I say?







Should I say again (and again and again and again!) that I think we are leading parallel lives? And I really think that our firstborns were separated at birth. What you said here is so right on for me and my older son:

However, the parts about not being child-centered, well, they just made me laugh. With my ds1 we couldn't NOT have been child-centered. He would have been a total and utter emotional wreck from day one had we just sat back and continued with our lives with him just added to the mix. We HAD to focus on him nearly 100% of the time. And if you've never had a high high high needs child, there is no understanding what I'm talking about.

Okay, I know I didn't quote that correctly, but I needed to tell you that my DH and I used to talk about this all the time. Like even if we wanted to "add him to the mix" a la Continuum Concept (I read, too), it wouldn't have worked. He literally DEMANDED our constant focus and attention. 24/7. Every minute, in fact. And he's STILL this way.

Oh, ladies, can I discuss for a moment the restorative powers of the weekend? Not like I'm off duty or anything. But our family just works better. This morning DH and I are reading the paper on the couch, drinking our coffee, the baby is snoozing and our older son is happily reading and playing on the floor. This scenario is just impossible during the week, of course. I would have a 3 year old screaming and crying for me to attend to his every need. But when it's me and DH together, we fit better. If that makes any sense. And I feel restored, almost inspired again by my life.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thank you again, ladies.


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## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

(((((((((Bears)))))))) Wow, it was so good to read through this thread. Thanks to all who contributed their experiences and wisdom. I love this place so!









Just wanted to add my hugs & support, to Bears and each of us feeling our way along in the dark, trying to find the right path in this. I've found myself trying to explain the difference in parenting to friends since dd turned 3 - and especially how a newborn is hard physically (draining, tiring, etc) but I at least felt like I usually knew how to do it - just wasn't always up for it. Now.... well, I know I'm often not up for it and haven't a clue in some moments what the h*ll to do!







:LOL Really relate to worrying lately that I've ruined her sweet soul with my poor parenting.









Sounds like some of the stuff about how to detach from dc's emotions is so important, glad that's been helping a bit, for several of us. It's a biggie for me, too.

For what it's worth, I wanted to toss out something I've been trying in desperate moments - an attempt to integrate a little 'playful' parenting (I haven't read the book yet, but it's just my take on the idea), because dd reacts really well to a quick change to take the pressure off our current power struggle. When neither of us can back down gracefully from a position we've taken, I sometimes do one of three things:
- Appeal to an imaginary third party in the room
- Slip into a little nonsense language to change the script a little
- Suggest we switch roles

To explain a little:
#1 For ex - It's so much easier when dh is around, so sometimes I pretend someone else is with us, start bringing a doll, toy or any inanimate object into it. If she's super frustrated with me, I'll try to name her feelings, comiserate, etc. - But she loves it if I tell "someone else" what just happened. Like if she feels wronged by me (I pushed the elevator button for her the other day too, whoever just said that!







), I'll tell her doll the story of what she did, what I did next, what was supposed to have happened, etc. If no doll is present I can honestly use a chair or a wall. No kidding. It really grabs her imagination. She might just be weird.

#2 An example is that she's mad or crying, and I have an odd phrase that comes from my own Dad, where I would say, "Oh, no, dd look's like such a Sad-dy Sue" (







). Instead I'll start to say, "Oh, there's a Sad-dy S...uitcase - whoops, I mean Sad-dy S...uperman, uhh, err..... a S....weet potato" By this time she's saying "I'm a Sad-dy Sue!" but giggling.

#3 Just asking, mid-tantrum, 'Do you want to be the mom and I'll be the daughter?' is working a lot, to my surprise. I'll say I don't want to do x (wash hair, get in carseat, use potty) and she'll begin to mimic my every word, explain why x is necessary and call me sweetie, etc.

Okay, lol, I just wrote out my tactics and we sound like lunatics! Yikes!







My dd is really kind of odd I think, but what I'm getting at is I've found I have a short fuse, get impatient easily, and 3-years-old has been kicking my a$$. Trying to "control" her better was spiraling quickly downward. I do also talk with her about feelings more seriously, but sometimes it's just too intense and she just needs a chance to back up and move on, kwim?

Thanks again for this good conversation. I'm inspired again for the week.









mamabutterfly


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

mamabutterfly-WOW! Thanks SOOOO much for your insight. I really feel inspired by your words. And NO, you don't sound like lunatics to me. I like the idea of speaking to a third party when in the middle of an escalating power struggle. It sort of takes the pressure off the situation, I would imagine.

Before the birth of my 2nd son, I really did look for more of these kind of solutions. But in the past few months, I admittedly have let things slide. It's been survival mode for us. Which isn't good. We've been winging it more then we ever imagined we would. The great plans have gone out the window-sometimes all day. Sometimes all week!







:

I, too, am inspired by all the great wisdom here. How can we be expected to do this alone, without ever knowing how to do it before? Does that make any sense? This is where I come to get geared up for my days, weeks. I am trying desperately to snap out of my bad moods, which is hard. Especially when DS#1 is sooo challenging and currently the baby is sick. I feel like hiding under the covers. But alas, I can't. I have to do it. Just like labor-at some point in both labors I said at least once, "I don't think I can do this" and my DH or someone else would say, "You ARE doing it."


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
Just like labor-at some point in both labors I said at least once, "I don't think I can do this" and my DH or someone else would say, "You ARE doing it."


Life is a marathon, not a sprint.

I was just going on to post about mommabutterfly's great post and my ds turned off the computer because he said it was his turn. Of course I got to use my best GD because I felt like you were all with me.

Bearsmama- the one thing I have, that you don't have is evidence that parenting with lots of love makes up for lots of frustration. My oldest got my young, frustrated parenting and he was very high needs. (I do think that high needs is also resiliant... they demand and they get unlike some kids that just shrink away.) He was here for Easter and I feel so blessed. He is turning into such a beautiful adult and I see no scars from our rough years. Really. I wish grown up Bear could pop in and tell you that it was all going to work out, then you could relax and do the best you can without being so hard on yourself.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Maureen-







Once again, your words have such meaning for me. DH and I have been talking a lot lately about what you mentioned in your post. Will our screw-ups and mistakes and frustrations just override our AP ways, our love, our attentiveness since the day he was born? And on the bad days, I can't look to the future. I am caught so in the NOW. But on the good days, or after reading wise words like yours, that have some PERSPECTIVE behind them, I have a feeling that all will be okay. I just don't have my crystal ball, and I can't see if he'll be okay with my own eyes yet. And all I want is for my kids to be okay. I think that's the bottom line. All my frustrations aimed at my own transgressions and perceived "bad" parenting all come down to having a little bit of fear. That fear that I think is in all of us mamas about wanting the best for our babies & children. And when we've not been our best, well, it's hard to accept that we've gone off our path. If only momentarily. Maureen-I can't say it enough how much your words have helped me. I gotta get that ink cartridge for the printer ASAP, b/c I think this thread will be posted on my fridge for a while.

I'm so happy to hear your words about seeing your son turning into this fine adult.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabutterfly*

Okay, lol, I just wrote out my tactics and we sound like lunatics! Yikes!







hug

mamabutterfly


What you sound like is a genius! My goodness, what a great idea. My kids would have loved those same things. Don't read any books, write one!


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## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

:









Wow, thanks, Red! That just made my day.








We have a houseguest for the night, a kind but pretty straightlaced older lady. As I tried to feed dd dinner (at nearly 8 o'clock!







), dd ran away, climbed atop the couch and announced:
"Sometimes, I just don't listen to my Mom." :LOL No parenting books from here anytime soon!

Maureen, thanks for the reminder that they do survive our foibles when offered in a context of attempted love.

Bears, sorry for the sick babe & the bad moods.







These torrential rains here today aren't helping , eh?









mb


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Yes, I'm digging this one up.

I need to. I think he broke me. Really. I have to make sure I'm all here. Not just me, my DH too. It was just the worst weekend. Will I ever get used to these dramatic ups and downs?

I really think he's crazy. Seriously nuts. Not just marching to the beat of a different drummer, but listening to some wacky, wacky music we've never heard played before.

Okay, he just doesn't listen AT ALL lately. I mean even listen to us trying to have a CONVERSATION with him. How was the park? Nothing. Do you want your shorts or pants? Nothing.

Not to mention the discipline stuff. He's been making our indoor cat crazy. Running after her non-stop even after she has growled and hissed at him. I get down on his level and remind him that it's not nice, she's a member of our family, it scares her. Yadda, yadda, yadda. I ask him if he understands. Yes, mommy. Then he does it again and again and again. He grabs her tail, bugs her while she's eating, etc.

His new thing is opening the door and letting our indoor car outside. Did I mention that she's an INDOOR cat? That she CAN'T be outside? It's not good for her.

Every flippin' thing. And I mean every flippin' thing is a struggle. We try new tactics. We make it FUN! We make it serious. We make it mellow. We ignore it. NOTHING IS WORKING.

Sometimes it seems that nothing we say or do makes a difference to this boy. We've taken toys away. We yell (obviously not productive). We DON'T yell. We talk. We cry. We cajole. NOTHING.

Thanks. Just needed to share and vent as usual. It just seems like we're in "crisis" a bit more than I think others are. Or are we? Is this just normal stuff with a spirited (read: CHALLENGING, EXHAUSTING, etc., etc.)????


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Bearsmama- I am so sorry you are struggling so. I wish I could tell you if this is "normal" or not. My current 3 year old is certainly not a struggle. My first was, my third looks likely. But taking a look at some of the behaviors- Joey opens the door and lets Zach outside. (He's an inside baby- but I can't convince either he or Joe of this.







) I am putting locks on all our doors- we live on a somewhat busy street and have a marsh in the back. He teases the dogs and is overly rough with Zach. The only real difference I can hear is that he is very easy to distract. The behaviors are the same but the intensity, the locking in, seems different. That would be a temperment difference. With Joey, I won't have to parent very hard, I will just keep moving him around a lot. You need a much better plan than I do.

One thing that I think about is auditory processing problems. I have a fantastic book at the office about this- I will look for it this week and give you that information. If he does have this, then the answer is to certainly make sure that you have your hand on him and look into his eyes when you tell him something and try to get him to tell it back to you.

Does he seem angry often or just kind of indifferent when he is rough with the cat? I don't think empathy is at all possible at this age so telling him the cat is part of the family doesn't seem real helpful. Joey was trying to get cereal off Zach's head by shaking him by the throat.

Does he spend time with anyone who's opinion you really trust? I think you do need to figure out if you are struggling with parenting (which is really ok) or if there is something "wrong" that you need to figure out.

Keep checking in, no one really believes that any of our crisis threads "fix" things- of course you are still struggling... and we all are still here.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Bears, I am so sorry you are having such a rough go of it.
I have no idea if your son is "normal", but I do know that the behaviors you describe here are all behaviors we have dealt with at one time or another with my ds. I would suggest that you consult with someone who can give you a clearer idea of "normal". I have had more than one consultation about my ds with an early childhood expert whom I trust, it always serve to help me relax.
With regards to the cat, this is what I would do:

"DS, the cat stays inside. It keeps her safe. It is my job to keep her safe. I need your help. Don't open the door to let her out. If you open the door to let her out again, I will put a lock on the door so that only the grown ups in the house can open the door without help." or something along those line, simple language, clear expectations, no judgement. Then I would indeed purchase whatever kind of childproofing lock the door needed so that ds couldn't operate the door.
Another thing, my ds, (not unlike my dh







: ) often appears to not listen in the moment, but later, it is clear that he has grasped whatever it was I was saying. Growing is a long process and often some behaviors just have to be tried again and again and again until the lesson is learned.
Hope this helps a little.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Maureen-Thank you, again.







Just off the top of my head here-No, DS doesn't seem angry AT ALL when bugging the kitty. In fact, he thinks it's fun and funny to chase her around. And on some level I understand that it WOULD be fun to a three year old to chase a big furry thing around the house.

When we've had a weekend like we have, DH and I have to remind ourselves that it's not always like this. It's not this intense every day all the time. In fact, we haven't had two consecutive days like this past weekend in a few weeks. I probably should make that clearer. But Maureen-you hit the nail on the head with the intensity level and the "locking in" being the different factors. And like I've said many times about my son, this part of him has been different since birth. I remember when he was an infant and he was crying about something and my MIL was over and she said "DH used to like it when I put a diaper on my head". So, she put a diaper on her head and acted goofy to try to get some smiles or at least for the crying to calm down. NOTHING. And I remember thinking in my head, boy, she just doesn't know my baby does she? He was not and is not easily placated, calmed, redirected or distracted. Now, with my 8 month old, I already can tell that he will be easier in this way.

Back in September I had a behavioral consult about DS with my ped. She assured me that all of this seemed "normal" but also reminded me that if I'm worried about any of it, she has the resources to direct me to the right people. Then, at his 3 year old check up in January, she said, "Wow. And to think that we were worried about his behavior" because she saw this incredibly bright, curious, intense child. And didn't see all the other behaviors I was/am worried about. I guess I am LESS worried about these things being normal anymore and MORE worried about how to just get through them with my whole family (and all of our spirits!) intact.

Maureen-this is personal, but can you remember these dramatic ups and downs with your oldest, challenging child?

DH and I have also talked a lot lately about how DS doesn't have much distraction ever b/c it's just me and him (and the baby, of course). He doesn't do classes or things like that (although I'm currently looking for something neat we can do together this summer-sports or activity related). We have a playgroup that meets 1x/week. But other than that, we don't have much going on. Sometimes I wonder if that's the part of the problem.

And sleep. I think sleep and him not getting enough is also a big issue. The only place he'll sleep anymore is the car. So, I make a point most days of getting in the car and doing stuff in the early afternoons to encourage this. Yesterday, he didn't nap at all, even in the car. So it's not consistent. And he's up by 5:45 am most mornings. I can usually have him asleep on the no-nap days by around 7:30. I don't know why I'm sharing all this. Just thought it was another piece of the puzzle that is my boy.

Dalai-Thanks so much for your reply and support. Yes, I've basically said what you suggest. And I am prepared to get the lock I need for the door. I guess sometimes I might expect too much from him at this age.

It is all such a bad cycle somedays. DH and I were so spent last night that we couldn't even talk. All we wanted was for DS to be sleeping. That was our whole goal. And gettinng there was a big trauma.

I am just hoping that my love for my son supercedes all of this stuff. That he will feel loved and lovable inside for years to come no matter what his struggles in life may be. Unfortunately, I have a fear that he may have some struggles. I just hope all the AP and love and hugs and kisses and "I love yous" count for something.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Well first off- no Nate was actually easy but a bit anxious at 3. Not quite like this. I wish I could promise that Bear won't have Nate's struggles but I agree with you that we all have to love them as much as possible and try to be good parents so that if they do have struggles, (come on, when they do have struggles- because don't we all have some really rough years?) when they do have struggles, they have the foundation to make it through. We are their foundation.

A few things that jump out at me...he is likely very bright and might be bored. Outside stimulation (other than torturing the cat) might be really helpful. I think that you may have to hide the cat sometimes. We have two dogs who are saints. But if the boys are too rough, the dogs go in the garage. Time with the dogs is a priviledge. I wouldn't even talk about it with Bear. That makes it sound like it is something that you expect him to be able to manage and I just am not sure that he can. If he is this driven than you need to make his envirnoment safe- safe from a sense of failure for everyone.

The other big thing is sleep. I would put sleep as number one on the list of struggles to take on. Not only does he need sleep but you need the break to recharge. I wouldn't make it without nap time. I need time to myself (to be here, to bathe, to breath.) I also wonder what it is about his neurology that is interfering with sleep. Is he a light sleeper, is he fighting it? If he sleeps in the car I suspect he needs the nap. It is a lot harder to do nap with the two of them but more important to me. I admit it- I use TV!!! I just put in some video and shut the door and keep rubbing his back or sitting with him until he crashes.

(Ok, my mild mannered 3 year old is resisting nap today and helping me write so I will check back later so that I can focus. Being a mom means never finishing a thought.)

I think you are doing great... really. Just more of this.


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## TEAK's Mom (Apr 25, 2003)

As you know, Bears, TEAK is very much like your ds. She has never been distractable, not even as a newborn. And, she fixates on things and obsesses on them. She also has not napped in more than a year and gets up at 6:00am and goes to bed at 8:00pm.

We have had a lot more days like you describe recently and I think Maureen is on to something. The longer we stay home, the more innovative ways she can find to fixate on something that is just a bad idea (emptying salt shakers to play with the crystals on the floor, trying to go pug-back riding, etc). This is a big switch for us. She used to need a lot of at home time, so it took me a while to see a pattern. So, I try to get us out for at least a walk twice a day. It helps some times.

But, I confess that I have fantasized about just not having to deal with her for a day. I love her to the core of my being, but she is constant work from literally dawn till dusk.

I know this doesn't help much, but just know you're not alone.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Maureen-Thanks again. Good point about the cat. I think I am expecting some modicum of self-control here that he does not have. The cat went to the basement while I was prepping dinner tonight. He was upset, but he got over it fairly quick.

Oh, and SLEEP. Well, DH and I secretly refer to our boy as the Rasputin of sleep. Despite Herculean efforts, he will NOT nap at home. He used to. Actually, he was a great NAPPER until the baby arrived in August. I actually took a picture of him passed out on the living room floor a few weeks after #2 arrived. And I've tried it all with him. Books in bed, "quiet time", even the lay-down-on-the couch and watch a video thing. So, the car is it. And 9x/10 it works.

Thank you again for your encouragement throughout this post and others, Maureen. You've been as source of advice and wisdom to me. Today I made more of an effort to be concious of my tone and be calm, etc., and of course this is always the goal. But not always the outcome!

Ahhh, TEAKS! Yes, being out really helps us. I wish I could say that we were the kind of unit that worked well just hanging out at home. But DS gets bored. I can tell. And you're right-he's changing, too. And I need to realize that he needs more stimulation. This has changed in the past 6 months.

I'm a little distracted right now. More when I can, ladies.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

, mama.

Maybe he's losing his feeling of safety. It can be very hard (and extremely scary!) to be so very young and feel like your boundaries are wobbly. We had this problem with our first until I became very firm and consistent with consequences. Now, while she still has pretty extreme mood swings and has a hard time "listening", I don't feel like she's breaking me because I am in control. Both of us are much happier and healthier because of it.

I had firm, clear boundaries and consequences with my second, starting around the age of 2 or 2 1/2. He'll be three next month. "S, you may not chase the cat. It scares the cat and you're not respecting her." Still chases the cat. "This is your warning. Do not chase the cat." Chases the cat. I put him on the couch/on the chair/on my bed for a couple of minutes, then have a "talk". Me: "Are you ready to talk?" When he says yes, we discuss why what he did wasn't acceptable, etc. That nips it in the bud.

I used to always use sweet voices, pleading voices, sugar-coated voices. Now I speak very firmly and very directly about what is expected and why, and always follow through with immediate consequences. They seem much happier and well-adjusted because, as I said before, it's very scary for a young child to feel that they are in control (or out of control, for that matter.)

HTH.









ETA: I also agree with the previous posters and their ideas. But sometimes I simply can't be the sole source of entertainment for my children, nor should I have to be. And when I can't be, my children need to know how to act properly. My friend put it best when she said this to me: "When a parent lets a child get away with negative behaviors, they are essentially telling that child that he isn't smart enough or good enough to behave and act like other children do. That in and of itself is actually a very negative message to send to your child." I really took that to heart and changed a lot about how I parent my kids.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

The only thing that worked for me when my dd has these phases (just turned 4) is lots of physical activity. We started dance classes, increased park visits, jumping games etc etc etc.

I also avoiding confrontation, discussion etc because it just seemed to make things worse for both of us. I did less explanation in the moment and tried to tell more stories or convey ideas later in conversation etc.

Have you tried role playing with how the cat feels etc? (I am sure you have but this sort of thing eventually seems to work for my dd)

good luck!

lula


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Bears, I'm so sorry you're having a hard time. I just have a moment to offer one idea, and I can't even remember if it's been offered to you before. When my oldest was three I decided to send her to preschool (well, she was just a couple of months past three when I decided, and by the time she started she was a month away from turning 4). I had fully intended to homeschool, but after a year of really struggling with her I thought that maybe preschool (three 2 1/2 hour days) would be a good break for both of us. And it really was the best thing. We still struggle often, but when she's in school we both get a break from the intensity. And more important, she's going somewhere she enjoys being, where she's having fun, she's learning, everything is interesting (she gets bored at home, especially in the winter)-and she feels very successful there. It's her own "private" place, which is really good for her. She loves it. And we see how great she is at school, how successful she is-she's gentle, kind, generous, gets along well with the other kids, follows the rules, takes responsibility, shows great self-control and competency when there's a problem, etc-a lot of the very things we struggle with at home. So we can see that we're really not doing so badly as parents. KWIM? For us it was a great thing. Maybe it's worth considering preschool for your son. (of course I just realized that I don't know if your son is already in preschool, which would make this whole post foolish







)


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I had fully intended to homeschool, but after a year of really struggling with her I thought that maybe preschool (three 2 1/2 hour days) would be a good break for both of us. And it really was the best thing. We still struggle often, but when she's in school we both get a break from the intensity. And more important, she's going somewhere she enjoys being, where she's having fun, she's learning, everything is interesting (she gets bored at home, especially in the winter)-and she feels very successful there. It's her own "private" place, which is really good for her. She loves it. And we see how great she is at school, how successful she is-she's gentle, kind, generous, gets along well with the other kids, follows the rules, takes responsibility, shows great self-control and competency when there's a problem, etc-a lot of the very things we struggle with at home.

I had been thinking/wondering the exact same thing. Is he in preschool? If not, are you open to trying that? I think that preschool has been a wonderful thing for both them and me. Me getting a little break from 24/7 responsibility was just the icing on the cake (cake being how much fun, learning and friendship they got at school). I truly believe that dd1 having preschool to attend eased sibling issues when dd2 came along. Ditto for dd2 when dd3 came. For all the reasons that sledg already stated so well.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

I have had the same expereince with preschool. Ds goes to a wonderful Waldorf school 2 full days a week 9 (he was going 1/2 days, but never wanted to leave!) It been a sanity keeper since having dd.
Hope your week has been ok Bears.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Ladies,
Thanks so much for all the support and love, as always.









Well, we've had a GREAT week. Yes, I did say GREAT. And I can't remember the last time I was able to say that while recapping my week with my kids. I don't know what's changed, exactly, but many small things have. And I'm not saying that next week won't be harder or that I won't feel that he's breaking me again soon. But this week I just felt much more in control of myself and much more in tune with my son.

And I think that's what consciously changed for me: I really tried to get into his head this week. To _really_ remember what it felt like to be little again. And, I think this is the biggie, I just loved him more this week. Of course, I always love him. Perhaps I should say "Loved him up" more. I realized that I had let some little things go, things that right after having my 2nd son last August I sort of got distracted from. Like getting down on the floor with him and playing, if just for 20 minutes. Or just carrying him whenever I could. And giving him loads more kisses and hugs. I am a pretty affectionate person by nature, and my kids get lots of kisses, but I just think I simply forgot how important these seemingly small things are to my 3 year old.

I am hoping that the changes I saw in myself (Yes, myself! That's the key, I'm getting), last. And I think they will. Oh, I yelled this week, of course. But I didn't feel guilty about it forever. And I had trouble every day figuring out HOW to handle his behavior. But I just really, really, really tried hard not to yell like I had been. And to get out of that locked-in power struggle mode that unbeknownst to me, I had fallen into. I realized that many mornings I was waking up with a huge chip on my shoulder. I also realized that it is my job to get that chip off of me every morning, no matter how the day before went. So, for me, letting go a bit this week really helped thiings (and this is something that sledg has talked about a lot).

Okay, I'm rambling...

Thanks candiland. And Lula, yes, the physical activity really helps my son. And perhaps the being outside so much this week while it was beautiful here in the east really helped.

sledg, kirsten, and dalai-No preschool yet. But he is going in the fall. It's a montessori program that's 5 mornings a week. I am looking forward to it for many reasons. I feel sometimes that he needs a break from me as much as I need a break from him. Besides all the good learning and socialization that comes with a good preschool.

I will check back and try to continue my thoughts more clearly.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Yay! I know exactly what you are describing, and it is so wonderful to be in that place. I know that I often need a reminder that it is _me_ that is the problem, not ds. So glad you had a great week!


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I was thinking of you this weekend... because I was having a not so great weekend. I have really been focusing on how my mood or pace influences Joey's behavior. So this weekend, I was tired and frustrated that daddy isn't home much and when I was mad in my head, the boys just knew it. It is so good to be able to talk about knowing our stuff so that we can be our best at parenting.

Congrats on a great weekend.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

dalai & Maureen-Thanks


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Ladies,
Just checking in after a rough day. It would be great if we could start a continuuing thread for mamas having rough days (months, years...). I'm working on forgiving myself tonight, but forgiveness doesn't come easy for me. Just wondering if others beat themselves up like this about their bad moments. And how do you start forgiving yourself?

Perhaps this is another thread?


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I had a rough day today, but it wasn't my kids, it was me. I needed a break! I just needed fifteen minutes to myself, but it wasn't going to happen.

So I like the idea of a general support thread for mothers having a rough day. Yeesh, it could be an entire forum.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I just started bawling when I read this. I'm sitting here as my ds1 is screaming at the top of his lungs at me for no reason.

This is so hard. I'm just trying to get through it. Everyday I have little bits of anxiety for what the day brings. It has gottne to where I hate the idea of being alone with him. I love my baby but why doens't he seem to love me?


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Oh, IOF-All I have is





















and love and support for you. I am just checking in quickly here and I will get back later....hang in there. And if it's any consolation, I'm feeling it, too.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

IOF,







I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. I have been where you are right now, and I know it's not easy. Your son does love you, really. And it will get better. Please know that you're a good mom, your kids love you, and you are not alone. So many of us go through these times and come out the other side okay, and you will too. So will your son.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Here is what is working for me this week. When I get frustrated and cross with Joey I try and think if anything is as important as cooling off right now. Really consciously. Is this important? So when we were fighting about the stove- no I need to keep him safe, but the computer... no this isn't so important, I can take a minute and cool off before I go any further. It feels like I am aiming for rough minutes instead of rough hours, KWIM? I don't expect good days, just shorter rough spots. It seems to work.

After telling so many Mommies that Joey is my easy going kid, he decided to turn. Sibling rivalry has reared its ugly head. Yesterday I heard Zach crying and went up to check on them. Joey says, as calm as can be... "I kicked him, I kicked him real hard. I no like him." So... I felt the huge anger rise up in me, I felt like defending my sweet little baby from this horrible ogre who now lives in my home. But then after the deep breath, I realized... the baby and the ogre image wasn't helping at all. These were my two rough and tumble boys and they usually work things out pretty well. So, I scooped up the little ones and kissed Joey and told him that even if he doesn't like Zach, he can't kick him and it resolved really quickly. Now, I am not so sure I could have handled it as well if there had been witnesses. I know the urge to make sure I am "doing something" about Joey's behavior is really strong when there are other people around. But I am trying.

Hang in there Mommies, kids are hard work.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I'm working on forgiving myself tonight, but forgiveness doesn't come easy for me. Just wondering if others beat themselves up like this about their bad moments. And how do you start forgiving yourself?

I can never figure out if I'm too hard on myself or too easy.







but I always feel such deep guilt, which doesn't help my ds, I know. I am in the process of enlisting the help of his beloved preschool teacher's "Mental Health Expert", to find out why he won't say good-bye to anyone but his live in family (me, dh, dd, and my sister) or casual aquantances, friends, beloved teachers, grandmothers get the cold shoulder. And why he refuses to comply so often. Feeling deeply guilty.









also getting over a bad case of strep throat, which coincided with dh's sciatica flaring up, and ds having a 36 hour stomach bug, so it's no parade over here. . .

thanks so much for keeping this thread going Bears.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Once again, the wisdom keeps coming-from the same places-Maureen, sledg, Dalai...









I have so much to say, but alas, I have no time. There's going to be an unexpected frost tonight, and I have to drag the plants inside. More ASAP...


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Just wanted to offer what often helps with my DS#2, whose energy level really does seem on a par with The Bear in question ... well, okay, actually, it doesn't help him at all, but it does help me keep calm ... it's repeating the following mantra: "He's doing the best that he can with the tools that he has." And if I start to lose it again, then keeping on under my breath with "the best that he can with the tools that he has."

It keeps me grounded, and reminds that he is, after all, only 3.










Sorry to add ... noting the worries about said Bear and what he does to the cat on page 1 of the thread ... that we finally had to find a new home for our last remaining cat specifically because of our 3yo, too. And I loved my cats.







But she couldn't even hide under the couch from him, as after he would chase her under it he would try to follow her under there ... it was so obvious that either boy or cat or both were going to get badly hurt sooner or later, so it was the only solution for us ...









(For a personal tangent/clarification in re energy levels, an interesting note to me is my "comparable" DS#2 is *not* high-needs ... my DS#1 was, and it's a whole different ballgame. Am finding the high-energy DS#2 much more difficult to deal with and keep calm with than high-needs DS#1, which I find fascinating ...







)


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

Can I just say how helpful this thread has been? I often feel like the only mother who is having it rough.

Today I actually said that having a child (look at me I only have one and feel this way!) has been the worst experience of my life. Yes, I actually meant it. I love her but it is so hard sometimes and it... parenting just never goes away! Ok, I feel better just writing that!

I am really working on not seeing my child as an extension of myself and this seems to be helping. I know this is a concept that I think I get but then when she has a fit or major meltdown it flys out of my head!

thanks for the ramble.

lula


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I'm working on forgiving myself tonight, but forgiveness doesn't come easy for me. Just wondering if others beat themselves up like this about their bad moments. And how do you start forgiving yourself?

Bears, been thinking about this question a lot. I have actually gotten to a place where I can forgive myself pretty easily most days. I think the best way to say how I can do that is this phrase from "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" (at least I think that's where it's from): "What you focus on you get more of."

I think that when I'm down on myself, beating myself up over what I've done, I'm actually much more likely to do more of what I don't want to do. Why?







For the same reasons focusing on the undesirable behaviors of our children tends to keep those behaviors coming, I suppose. When my kids feel bad, when the focus is more on what they've done wrong, then it's harder for them to remember to do something else-kwim? When I'm dwelling on this or that terrible thing I've done or choice I've made, I'm sort of stuck in that place and I'm not as likely to...I don't know, have the inner resources to make a more positive and lasting change. YK? So once I saw that beating myself up and dwelling in guilt was actually preventing me from making the changes I wanted to make, I was able to choose to forgive myself-to put things behind me once they're done and move on. Not to forget, because our mistakes are valuable learning experiences, but just to sort of recognize that once it's done, it's done-it can't be undone, but I can turn to look at something else and move in a new direction.

It's like getting lost-you take a wrong turn, but it doesn't help at all to start beating yourself up about it. It's important to realize you took a wrong turn, otherwise you don't even know you're lost, but you can't dwell on what's already done. If you just sit there saying "I can't believe I took a wrong turn, I should know better" and get stuck in that, you can't find your way-you stay lost. But instead of getting stuck there, blaming yourself, you can just notice that you took a wrong turn, and once you see that you took a wrong turn you can see what to do next and you do it-whether it's look at a map, or ask for directions, or take that next turn over there, or whatever-and find your way.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Wow! I am amazed that this thread has taken on a life of it's own. And so happy to know that it's helping lots of mamas.

Maureen-I have done the same thing with my kids. Thinking that the baby is this angelic little thing and that my older son is an ogre. It's really true that this is imagery that just doesn't help things. I'm a little better with this lately b/c I think my hormones have leveled out a bit, and I'm not so "biologically" geared to protecting the smallest one in the house, KWIM?

dalai-I go through thinking like this, too. Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually too EASY on myself. Like all this talk on changing things and no action. But then I beat myself up so much that I know that can't be true. I hope everyone is on the mend in your house, dalai.

merpk-When I really am in control of my reactions, it's usually b/c I've practiced some sort of positive self-talk, like you mention with your mantra. But remembering to REMEMBER this is the hard part for me. Plus, b/c of my life-long issue of loving and accepting myself and all that other jazz, I am often the first one to forget about myself







If that makes any sense.

lula-I actually said something similar today (I think my words were, "This f-ing sucks"). You are soooooooo not alone.

sledg-Once again, what great words







Actually, your words and someone IRL that I really look up to, admire, and trust (she happens to be a therapist) are very similar. After DS#2 was born in August, and all my sef-loathing about my parenting really got kicked into high gear, I tried to get myself back into a positive mindframe. And it really did work. Seriously, what good is beating ourselves up really doing? I think you are absolutely right that when we dwell on this stuff (not just the normal guilt that's associated with doing things you're not proud of or making mistakes) it puts us in a place of making the same mistaks again and again. There's a difference between feeling guilt and feeling shame. And I think I really, easily, get sucked into the shame thing and have a hard time freeing myself from it.
I think your getting lost analogy is perfect. I feel that I haven't found my way, yet. But I'm really trying to get there. And some days, that counts for something.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

I was talking to a lday tonight thta I have known for awhile. I didn't know that she was a child psycologist until now though. She started talking to me about Tracy and I found that she is pretty GD friendly. She said a lot that made sense and I'm going to have lunch with her soon to talk about TRacy and our parenting and the things we can do.

We were talking about stages and I said, I know its a stage and I'm trying to get through it. SHe assured me it was but that just because it was a stage didn't mean I couldn't parent him.







Sometimes I just feel like, and do, stopping and jsut giving in. I know I can't. I still do.

She dealt with children with emotional issues. I know Tracy doesn't have emotional issues but his outbursts are emotion. She is anti-spanking in every situation and says there is wayt more I can do besides timeouts and the like.

I'm looking forward to talking to her more...but I will take it all with a grain of salt.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Do you know anyone IRL that has a child like yours?

I don't. Everyone I know IRL has older children that were like this or they had the kind of children that are easy going and pretty easy. I just would like to spend an afternoon with a mom with a child like Tracy...kinda share in the expereince


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi IOF.

It's so funny that you're asking if anyone has a child like yours. I do. My DH and I are constantly saying that we've NEVER (and I mean never) met another child like Bear. He is so intense, relentless, super smart, emotional about stuff you are constantly surprised at, needs little sleep, doesn't listen until your voice tone rises, etc., etc., etc. I could go on forever with adjectives. Just last night he woke up at like 11pm crying for me. I went into him and he sort of pushed my hand away and said nothing was wrong. I think he just wanted me in the bed, but he didn't want me to touch him.







And yet, other times, he's a snuggle bunny (although nothing like my 2nd son).

So, the moral to my little story is that sometimes I'm giving me exactly what he wants, and it's not what he wants (does that make any sense?). I would love to hear your describe your son more. Do any of these characteristics apply to Tracy?

Oh, DH and I always say that Bear is never satisfied. Always wants more. If you give an inch, he takes a mile, etc. You can't just do something really cool with him, or read one book, he wants 10 books and something cooler to do.

Don't know if this makes sense. It's still early.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Tracy is a child that can go from cool and calm to on fire and screaming in 2 seconds. If things aren't his way he screams. If he doesn't think you are paying enough attention while he is doing something he cries and clings. Like right now. He saw me sit at the computer and he had to lay half on my lap and says " I sleep here. You sit there" He wants you to play with him but only when he wants you to play. YOu have to sit there and watch him and hold a toy but you can't participate until he wants you to. You can't sing unless he wants you to. If he wants you to sing and you aren't he;ll yell at you. When we want to do soething fun with him he always throws a fit before hand so dh and I are grouchy from that and have no more interest in the fun activity we were going to do. He is over the top emotional. He moans when hurt even if he isn't hurt. He gets physical if he gets mad or frustrated. He is very in your face too. It is sad because he loves ppl but he can be to a point wher ppl don't know how to handle him. Like he'll say "Hi" till someone says "Hi" back. If he says "thank you" he'll say it over a[nd over till you say "Your welcome". Right now he is repeating "chocolate milk" over and over till I get it. Or, he'll sneeze and you say "bless you" he says "NO! I Do it!" SO he'll pretend to sneeze and then will sya it himself.

I'm writing this out and I think, Why in the world am I having problems here?? I think it is more the emotional outburts, that happen almost nonstop somedays. The fact that he is always loud, when happy and when upset. It is the fact that no matter what I do he will not listen to me. If he is hurting his brother he keeps hurting him till you physically remove him. He won't stop he jstu keeps going,

BUt I haven't met anyone like him IRL. I just meet moms with little kids who are total opposites and give me "advice" of things I've tried a million times and when I say they don't work they'll look at me like I must have done it wrong because their child is fine!


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## TEAK's Mom (Apr 25, 2003)

Oh Megan, I know just what you mean. TEAK is so sensitive to weird things: and example is at storytime at the library and everyone is singing a song. She doesn't want to join in even thought she knows the song. That's pretty normal. She also complelete freaks out if I join in. I mean shrieking and panicking, even when it is a song she and I sing together all of the time. She's at her best when it is just us and stressed in groups of any kind.

I also get so tired of advice from parents who do not have an intense child. I always feel better about myself as a parent when no one is sitting back and judging my dd. She's wonderful in her own way and it is not her job to be like other kids. I did actually snap at a woman the other day who told me that TEAK must be delayed because she is not fully potty learned at one month past her 3rd birthday. Who cares? She can read, isn't that good enough?! Grr.

It is so hard not to feel like a freak because your child is just different and more intense. I've been nodding along a lot when everyone talks about forgiving ourselves for the hard moments and focusing on where we are now.

Sorry if I'm a little scattered, I have a whopping migrane today.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Teaks. Sorry about your migraine. DH gets them and I understand how debilitating they can be.

Oh, we are so on the same page with this stuff, too (surprise?). I have to say that although I definitely get very annoyed with those that expect my boy to be like theirs, on the bad days I *secretly* sometimes wish he was like the other kids. Although I usually snap out of this pretty quickly. DS really doesn't like many things that are new to him. Story time at the library was a bust. He's not a joiner. Doesn't like group activities. In fact, even within my playgroup (which is a very small group of mamas), if one of my friends has an idea for something to actually DO at our playgroups besides just hanging out and letting the kids play, DS almost has a physical reaction to it. You can see him change. Like, "Oh NO, I'm NOT going to bake cookies. I'm not going to do any artwork".

My guy is very independent, and yet at 3 years and 4 mos, he does not use the potty in a regular basis, in no way shape or form wants to sleep in his own bedroom, and has an attack if we even mention the bed we bought for him ages ago in the hopes of someday transitioning him to his own room. DH really thinks he will be the ONE kid out of a million that will, indeed, be sleeping with us come junior high. So, he has this fearless, independent streak, and yet he is so dependent and connected (which is great) to us.

Okay, I don't know if this is OT or not, really, but I needed to share. Trying today to forgive myself. And be lighter in spirit with my boy, if that makes any sense.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

I am coming on today to brag... about Nate. Today he called from the job he has had since January, working with his stepfather, making more money than I made until I had a masters degree and asked my advice about buying a car with the money that he is making so that he can take on extra hours.

Why is this relevant... other than I just feel like a success tonight? Because Nate was the most intense, out of control, crazy child. He was a mess and so was I. I just held on. I mean just held on. I didn't really do anything great or meaningful or special... I just held on. I loved him and loved him and loved him some more. I fought and yelled and hit and lost it and gave up and threatened and cried and cried and cried. But I held on.

Loving a kid like Nate has made me a better mom and a better therapist and it is why I post here. I love you mommas who are being so careful not to damage these special souls. I just want to send lots of hugs tonight.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I think your getting lost analogy is perfect. I feel that I haven't found my way, yet. But I'm really trying to get there. And some days, that counts for something.

But Bears, you _have_ found your way-many times. I get lost all the time, then find my way, then get lost again-in fact it happens almost daily (some days are just so great I don't have moments when I feel lost-wish I had more of those). And every moment in which you've found your way does count for an awful lot.

You can only find your way in any given moment, really. We are always growing, always changing, always experiencing changing emotions, always facing some new or changed circumstance, always in a changing world. We are always interacting with other people who are changing and growing and influenced by their own ever-changing moods and by our own moods and actions (especially our children). So faced with so much constant change, how can anyone _permanently_ find their way?

I happen to think, and maybe I'm terribly wrong, that if I'm doing what is right _right now_, then I've found my way. If I notice that I've taken a wrong turn, then I can see where I am _right now_, and I can see what I should do _right now_ to find my way _right now,_ for this moment. And after many moments of finding my way, I start to find that I'm walking the path I want to walk more often. But I never feel that I have found my way onto the path I'll stay on for the rest of my life, or even for a long time, because I can be reasonably sure that something will happen to help me wander back off that path at some point. Then I'll find my way all over again. And maybe the path I want to walk will evolve and change also.

Being a mother is way too complex and challenging on so many levels for me to think that I'll never get lost again once I find my way.

I just read what I wrote...and I'm not sure it makes any sense, though I am sure that I'm starting to sound kind of weird.








Hope you're having a good day. And Happy Mother's Day!


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Oh, Maureen-














I made DH read your last post and as he was leaning over my shoulder reading I realized that both of our eyes were filling with tears. Your words are so significant and meaningful to me. I am trying desperately to hold on to my little one. It is the single most challenging thing I have ever done in my entire life, and I am certain it will always be-that it will always surpass anything else (and I've been through a lot of stuff in my life). I tell him every day how much I love him. I say it at times when I really don't want to say it, when he's going nuts, or I'm frustrated. Just the act of saying the words "I love you" out loud seem to help me a bit. It somehow brings me a measure of calm.

My Bear just seems so out of control, so spiralling away from us sometimes. I remember talking to someone about kids who seem "unsettled" and at the time, DS didn't seem like he fell into this category. But now he really does. It is so hard to watch him sometimes. He doesn't seem like my baby sometimes, like some really significant changes have happened in the past 9 mos (since our 2nd was born) to change things. It's sometimes so hard to connect with him. Nighttime used to be our time, and now that is even strained. He just carries over his hyper-activity to the bed and it's starting to take forever for him to calm himself down. I have to work really hard to engage him.

DH and I have parenting pow-wows every single night (sometimes it seems like every 5 minutes). And tonight we really realized that we give him entirely too much attention. Now, I realize that this is only 1/1,000,000 of the problem, but we have to keep this in check. Maybe attention is not the right word, but we let him keep us "engaged" in his misbehavior, for lack of a better word. We're going to try to change this.

sledg-Thanks, as always.







And your words are the farthest thing from weird I've read in a long time. They are wise, and comforting, and true.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

And Maureen, I totally forgot to extend my







about your son, Nate. It must give you great pleasure to see him at this stage of his life, making good choices, etc. All the things our crystal balls when they're young can't tell us.


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

... have you considered that your child may have sensory integration dysfunction? I'm not saying he does, but some things you said made me wonder...

Both my children have it (my ds more so than my dd) and our ds's sound soooo alike. I am not one for just putting labels on children, but once I knew that this wasn't all my imagination, that my ds was just not simply "being difficult" on purpose and that it had a physiological / neuroligical reason behind it all, it was so much easier to bear. It also gave me some much-needed tools with which to help him respond to his world in a way that brought joy back into both our lives. It all started when I read "The Out-of-Sync Child" and my eyes nearly popped out of my head; my child was both hyper- and hypo sensitive (many kids are both with usually a slant to one or the other) and it was so reassuring to hear that there are other children out there with families who are going through similar stuff.

We are a homeschooling family, but we contacted our local school as we were eligible for a free evaluation and services through a local occupational therapy / early childhood intervention agency (according to state law). You may very well have something similar in your state - your local school's special-ed teacher is a good starting point.

There are a myriad of things that can be done to help these little spitfires calm down: from therapeutic listening therapy (special headphones and music) to movement exercises, etc. - a bunch of which can be done at home in a fun, relaxed way by you or another family member.

Good luck!

Michelle


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Quote:

Oh, DH and I always say that Bear is never satisfied. Always wants more. If you give an inch, he takes a mile, etc. You can't just do something really cool with him, or read one book, he wants 10 books and something cooler to do.
OMG, Bears, that is SOOOOOOOOOOO my ds! SOOOOOO him!!! Dh and I say this all the time!!!!

That is one of the most frustrating things I face with him. I know it is totally *my* problem to deal with, but I always feel like no matter how darned hard I try, I fall short satisfying him. And when I feel failure over and over and over, my gut instinct is to pull away. You know, the old 'well if I can't please him why even try?' mentality.

How do you and your dh deal with Bears being that way and the feelings it arouses within yourself?

And sometimes I worry that his personality type may one day lead to some kind of addiction







. I know that's horribly pessimistic, but dh and I both come from a long line of alcoholics, and it is something I have always secretly feared will reoccur in the genes of my children.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The Lucky One*

And sometimes I worry that his personality type may one day lead to some kind of addiction







. I know that's horribly pessimistic, but dh and I both come from a long line of alcoholics, and it is something I have always secretly feared will reoccur in the genes of my children.

This is a story I have a hard time telling about Nate and it may not make you all feel better, but I think you know the road isn't an easy one already.

Nate was making hundreds of dollars a weekend dealing X at Raves when he was 15. 15!!! (Due to his strong will, temper and bad choices, he wasn't living with me at the time.) He looked around at what was going on and he quit. He quit because he saw where he was headed. He was experimenting heavily and completely out of control. Well, I guess he wasn't out of control because he stopped. All by himself, without any help from me. The love and values and faith were all there and the strong will that has always been such a challenge was what saved him.

All I can say was the greatest gift I ever received was other mothers telling me that it was going to be ok. Mothers who had been there. Mothers who knew what I was talking about. Mothers who really understood what it feels like to be ragefull at the child you love so much for scaring you and testing you and making you feel like a terrible mom.

Happy Mothers Day to the mommas with the toughest job in the world. I hold you all dear in my heart. And honestly, kind of like the pain of childbirth, you don't really remember how hard it was once it goes away. (Until you read other mommas' stories.)


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Sensory Integration DYsfunction-- Some of those things sound like TRacy. But Tracy will have days wher he is totally reasonble and listens and is very loving. So, I'm not sure he falls into that category. And he doesn't do a lot of thigns for dh that he does for me. And when he is in a classroom situation he does pretty good.

We've had a good weekend too. Which has been nice.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Maureen-







Thank you for sharing your son's experience. And yes, it is hard to hear, but it is life, and I think we need to hear it.

We are having a rotten weekend. DS doesn't want to even talk to me when I've disciplined him. He now just screams noooooooo, or tries to kick or hit me. Great, huh? And this is when I've tried to be calm, focused, and tried to really get him to talk about the feelings behind why he is doing things. He seems to have shut down to me on a certain level lately. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that I've yelled and been so crazy for so long that perhaps he doesn't trust me anymore. I don't know. All I know is that I think that this is the lowest point I've had yet mothering. I feel like crap about my kid, and more importantly, crap about myself. Frankly, I don't want to even be around my son most of the time. I find him to be the most annoying kid on the planet, and those things that are wonderful about him are so hard to "get to" most days, that well, I just have to go on autopilot. He won't listen to me at all. It feels like I've lost that privilege or something. I don't know how to connect to him, either, lately. I feel like I'm going through the motions, just barely surviving this, really.

About the SID-I've read about this before, and although many of the symptoms seem to fit DS, I don't think it's a perfect match. He has his good days and bad, like IOF mentioned. I think lack of sleep is a huge factor with his behavior and that's just not going to change. He is up lately at 5:30-5:45 am. I can't possibly put him to sleep at 5pm-which would enable him to get a full night's sleep. And, of course, there's no nap.

I am just really having a hard time over here.I feel depressed. And ashamed, and like today, I've given up.

Thanks for listening.


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## michelle1k (Jul 7, 2002)

I just wanted to add that there are days / times when my ds seems reasonable also and then I think "o.k., we're normal". And then something happens to set him off again. It can be sugar, coloring, seasonal allergies, chemical exposure (buildings with new carpets, cleaning fumes, etc.), sensory overloads of sound, sight or crowds or smaller social situations which cause him ("normally" an introvert) to respond to the heightened stimuli in totally inappropriate ways - seeming to lose all sense of empathy and restraint. B.t.w. he was a "model child" inside the classroom of his Waldorf nursery / kindy under his teacher's watchful gaze and within the tight rhythms of their mornings. On the playground however, it was another story...

Also don't forget, your ds is going to try more stuff with you than your dh - as some wise LLL person once said: children act up most with the person they feel safest with. He is aware of your unconditional love as his mother and therefore will try to push the boundaries more with you. And as a boy / mother duo (also relevant for girls, but more so for boys I think who are home with mom) I think at this age, they are more apt to do the pushing away / seeking independence from the mother and then needing to know that there is still the safety of mother's arms and love.

Warmly,
Michelle


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## The Lucky One (Oct 31, 2002)

Bearsmama, (((HUGS))), I'm so sorry you are having a rotten weekend. Be gentle with yourself.

And Bears, this is for you. Please give your mama a little break, OK? Even though I don't know her personally, I can tell just by reading her words that she is a good mama and most of all that she loves you very much. Take it easy on her, even just a little. Alright?


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

michele1k-Thanks so much for your replies and support. And for reminding me that my boy needs me, as much as he pushes me away some days.

And TLO-What can I say?







I need to read your post to my boy asap.

And ladies, now that the boys are asleep (perhaps temporarily), and DH and I have had a chance to regroup after a rough weekend, I feel much better. Okay, WHEN will I just be able to go with the ebbs and tides of this mothering thing??? Is taking it all in stride even possible? There's a Chaucer quote I love, "What asketh man to have?". Sometimes we have it all, and sometimes it's so freaking hard, and sometimes it's so perfect. And we always want to be better, or for things to change, etc., etc. I am rambling, but I hope this makes sense.

Happy Mom's Day to all of you wonderful mamas who have been such an amazing support system for me for almost 3 years now. I cannot express to you how much this place has meant to me.


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

Hey Mommas- How are we doing? I have been thinking about you all as I struggle to be my best momma.

Joey (who I keep thinking is easy going... until he isn't) has been so 3 this week. He fell apart this week because I wanted to scrub the floor of the porch and that required moving the furniture around. He hates change. Hates it!!! We need to switch his bedroom and the guest room and get him out of the toddler bed and get him into a "big boy bed". I figure this alone could push him over the edge.

Give me an update, what is making you crazy this week?

Oh yeah, and he discovered WHY!!!! He insists on sitting on my lap if I am on the phone so that he can ask me over and over why are you saying that? who are you talking to? what did she say? why are you laughing? And to think I once posted worried about his lack of language development.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Hi Maureen,
I'm so glad you've revived this thread. It feels like a real supportive link now, I hope for everyone who posts/reads.

Sorry to hear you're having your struggling days. DS does much of what you describe in your thread. He sometimes freaks out about the most benign (seemingly) things and then the bigger things get barely any attention from him. Like, if I don't let him completely buckle himself into his carseat one day he'll flip. But in an 8 hour car trip last week he was calm, cool, and collected. And so was I!









I am still struggling every day. But the past week or so has been relatively calm. Right before we left on a week's vacation I posted a new thread asking for advice b/c I was realizing that this "stage" we seem to be stuck in for the past 8 months or so doesn't seem like a stage anymore. Well, lo and behold, my DH and I have said (very quietly, under our breath) that he seems to be changing just in the past week. A little more agreeable. Better with change. Being a helper to me and acting like he likes it.







I have actually enjoyed his company the past week or so when for a while there I was really questioning if we'd be able to connect again soon. He's been very snuggly, funny, and a little more "mature", for lack of a better word. Taking things in stride-not everything, mind you, but many, many things. For instance, since we were on the beach last week he got a bit of a bum rash. So, for the past few days changing his diaper (no, not potty trained yet) has been a bit painful for him. I empathize with his feelings, and commiserate with him while I wipe him up, and say, " I know it hurts, but we have to do it. I need you to be brave for a minute and it'll be all over" Or something like this. Well, I actually think he GOT today that I was not trying to kill him, I was trying to HELP him. This was a big one b/c he often doesn't get that I'm actually trying to HELP, not hurt him.

But, as we all know, things can and do change on a dime. And sometimes you can't put your finger on why or how or what precipitated the change. So, I'm trying hard not to overanalyze things, and appreciating the moments that are better.

Now, mind you, I'm saying all this BEFORE I have to drag him inside after an afternoon of playing outside w/ his best little friends, our neighbors. So we shall see what happens









Looking forward to hearing from some of the other frequent posters to this thread.







And btw, Maureen, your words are still helping me every day.


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