# How do you respond to CIOers?!



## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

I just got off the phone with a friend who I adore. (She lives in another state so we don't see or talk to each other often), but we are about to visit her and while we were talking she said her dd was crying in her bed because she just woke up. She's 7 months old. My friend said she was going to let her cry it out for a little bit. Uuughhhhh







: My heart sank and I wanted to say something witty, smart, and mind altering, but I couldn't think of anything except "ahhh, maybe she's teething. I'll let you go."

Do any of you have something that you say to your friends who believe in letting their babies cry? I realize that changing that type of parenting is a process and one statement can't reverse it all, but I hold out hope that something can be said that will get them to rethink their position.

So, what are you on-liners?


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## mollykatsmom (Mar 10, 2004)

I wish I had some. Most of the ones I can come up with are too snarky to be useful (i.e. Oh, DH and I have decided that we WANT our daughter to know that she can depend on us.) The only more gentle way I can come up with is to talk about the situation from the child's perspective: a child doesn't "know" that they are in a modern house with no predators around. They are hardwired to survive in a much more basic world. The only way to teach them that the world is a more gentle place is to deminstrate that to them, and abandonment does not teach that. It only teaches tham to give up. Blech. I get nauseous even thinking about it.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

It's happend a couple of times; my husband and I being face to face w/ other parents letting their babies CIO. After we walk around in a panicky fashion, worrying out loud things like.... "can they hear him?"... "oh my god I cannot stand this one more minute"... "I couldn't do it, oh my no, I just couldn't!".... someone usually asks us why it freaks us out so much... to which my reply has always been ".... I don't know how you CAN do it, I just couldn't do it... not at all...".







:


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## isosmom (Apr 23, 2004)

I usually just tell people that it wasn't until dd was two that she had a regular sleeping schedule and could put herself to sleep, and that now, at almost 3 1/2 (oh my god! ) she sleeps 10-12 hours a night, without waking, puts herself to bed, and I owe it all to the fact that until she didn't need it anymore, I was right there for her whenever she woke, cried, etc.
In other words, I don't tell them they are doing anything wrong, I just tell them my positive experience without CIO, does that make any sense? They usually listen and are like, oh, at some point this will end. I mean, I don't think I've met anyone who likes CIO, they think it's the only thing to do, ykwim?


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I haven't been in the position to voice my opinion, as I don't really have anyone close who does this (this is not because of a choice, just haven't really made a lot of friends with kids), but I would imagine I would say that my husband and I are just following our instincts and doing what we would have wanted our parents to do. Interested to see what others have to say about this.


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## jaye_p (Mar 12, 2005)

I usually tell ppl (as kindly & gently as I can) that they've been misinformed - that babies CAN'T and DON'T manipulate their parents (they're expressing needs, not wants), and that it isn't a question of showing the baby "who is the boss" but rather of adapting to the baby's needs. But of course, they trot out their "experts" to show that I'm wrong, not them. 'Cause if it's been published, it must be true, right? And that goes double for a bestselling book? B/c all those ppl can't be wrong...


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Ah, but those people who publish the books are NOT experts, that's the sad irony of it all...they publish the books because they KNOW it'll make lots of money. But they haven't looked into the effects of mother-infant separation, crying, etc. on the infant's rising levels of cortisol and what all that may do to the brain, immune system, etc. They haven't done ANY of this research (or they purposefully omit it). So they have no business publishing these books, it's solely to make money.









I had the unfortunate experience of writing out a sumamry of my research and the supporting background data on CIO to a friend of a friend who wanted to know what I had found, and what the exisitng scientific literature suggests. She made her daughter CIO and insists it was "the best thing" and wishes she had done it earlier.









When I gave her the info, she proceeded to call me judgemental, and then insisted she was as much of an "expert" as I (though I got my Master's at Harvard by doing this work, and she is a computer programmer..), and wrote me hate email for months. She had wanted to join an AP group I started (she breastfeeds and uses a sling), but wanted to talk up CIO in this group because it "works." Obviously this didn't fly..

AND her daughter still has to CIO everytime they go overseas (because of the time change). This woman has not changed her nighttime unparenting ways one iota.

Some people really do just choose what's in the best interest of the parent, despite being given the info. SOme people really do choose to make their child suffer so that they can get their 8 straight hours.







And this woman considers herself AP and makes a big deal about how attached they are because she uses a sling!! REALLY pisses me off.


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## Simply Nurtured (Nov 6, 2004)

These are things I do say to parents in regard to CIO:

A baby cannot be spoiled.

If we respond to a baby's needs NOW, he/she will learn about trust. The baby will learn that they can count on you, his parents. This in turn, will later lead to the child being independent, knowing that you are always there should he/she need you. And the more you pick the baby up, the less the baby will cry, that has been my own experience with three children...

On the other hand, if we do not pick up a baby and respond to his/her needs, what the baby learns is insecurity, he/she also learns he/she can't count on you. And this will cause more problems later down the road.

Letting a baby CIO has been shown over and over not to be a healthy choice.

Responding to a baby's needs has been shown over and over to be a healthy choice for the entire family, because it helps the child to feel secure and in turn leads to his/her independence.

I also direct parents to specific books they can read, and I model the behavior I am speaking of as I care for their baby.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Well, I try to respect the fact that they are doing what they feel is best for their child and their situation. Not that I agree with CIO, but if they are not asking for advice, I'm not giving it. I didn't like it when someone approached me and my DD when she was in a sling telling me it was dangerous, so I try to respect that others don't want to hear my opinions about CIO. OTOH, I do not "validate" the things I disagree with and will typically just blatantly change the subject or get off the phone if I was really uncomfortable.

And there is a big difference between letting your child fuss for a few minutes to see if they settle themselves and CIO, where you let your child cry for long periods of time until they stop on their own.

Its also a different scenerio if someone puts what I am doing down to make their choice to CIO justified. I will not stand for that and will share my opinions at that point.

But if someone is not asking or putting me down, I keep my mouth shut because that is what I would prefer others do when they disagree with my parenting choices.


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## SmilingChick (Apr 6, 2005)

By minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I don't usually say much - unless they seem like they want advice. I will usually offer what we do as a point of conversation but not in a judgmental way.

I was just on the phone a couple weeks ago with a girl who was very proud of the fact that she had her daughter CIO. She then went on to say that lately she's had a problem with her daughter waking up again though (she's 17 months old) in the middle of the night - she said she just lets her scream though and that eventually she will "get" it. I offered that maybe she was having night terrors - as that sometimes happens at that age and maybe she just wants to be reassured real quick. The mother said "Yeah, that could be it, because some of her screams sound downright terrified."







So I did say that maybe she could try for a couple nights going in and just calming her down and see if she will go back to sleep. I'm hoping this mother did try it.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Kitty-
What a great way to approach it! I'll bet she did go in. My DD started having night terrors at the same age and I'm ashamed to admit it, but it took someone else suggesting it before I realized what it was. She sleeps in her own room (her choice at 14 months) and the first few times I don't think I heard her because I am a super heavy sleeper







(I actually used to sleep through her cries when we were cosleeping in the same bed and my DH would have to wake me.)

My MIL heard her when she stayed over one weekend and brought it my attention, but did it in a really nice, non judgemental way like you did so I wouldn't feel crappy.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilingChick*
By minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids.

Ditto. Except I've actually asked people how they did it, and discovered that real life CIO may not be what many people on this board portray it to be. While I'm sure that there may be the extreme situations that people on this board like to talk about -- the crying for hours, until vomiting and ear damage results, I doubt that this happens often. I think CIO is so popular because babies with mellower personalities adapt to it quite well, sleep well afterwards, and don't cry for long periods of time. After the "training" is over, these kids go to bed happily and sleep peacefully, without crying.

I know many young kids whose parents have CIO'd when they were between 9-12 months old. I've been at their houses many times at bedtime, and there is no crying. The kids are happy and well-adjusted, and close to their parents.

I do believe that extreme CIO practices, that result in hours of crying over a prolonged period of time, must be bad for kids and their relationships with their parents. But I remain unconvinced that all CIO can be labeled as the horror that some advocate.

Karla


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dswmom*
I just got off the phone with a friend who I adore. (She lives in another state so we don't see or talk to each other often), but we are about to visit her and while we were talking she said her dd was crying in her bed because she just woke up. She's 7 months old. My friend said she was going to let her cry it out for a little bit. Uuughhhhh







: My heart sank and I wanted to say something witty, smart, and mind altering, but I couldn't think of anything except "ahhh, maybe she's teething. I'll let you go."

Do any of you have something that you say to your friends who believe in letting their babies cry? I realize that changing that type of parenting is a process and one statement can't reverse it all, but I hold out hope that something can be said that will get them to rethink their position.

So, what are you on-liners?

I have no idea why someone would let their baby cry after they've _woken up_, I don't see any logic in that. You know, MIL used to do this when she'd babysit Ben - I came home from work early one day, and I could hear Ben talking to himself in the crib, and MIL said, "He just woke up so I'll wait till he starts to cry before I go in there." I was very confused as to why she'd want to do that.







: So I just went in the room and got him out of the crib right then. She laughed at me like I was some wierd overprotective nut case.







I don't know, some people are just wierd like that, I guess.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
Ditto. Except I've actually asked people how they did it, and discovered that real life CIO may not be what many people on this board portray it to be.

I remember my stepfather's first piece of advice for me...he said the first night we were home with the baby not to pick him up after putting him to bed for any reason so he wouldn't "manipulate" us.

Then he told his own story about how he held his ex-wife down in bed so she wouldn't go to their son while he cried in his crib at two days old. After that, he said, "he never did it again."

I didn't point out to him that since graduating high school, his son joined the military and has lived as far away from Maine as he could manage (South Carolina, Germany, and now Texas) for the past ten years. Coincidence?


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i agree w/karla...i have many friends who practiced CIO and it went smoothly and quickly for them and they have excellent sleepers now...


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

I've had the over the phone thing happen a couple of times. I usually try to rush through it, "Oh wow, sounds like you have to go. Poor babe! I'll call you tomorrow, ok?" and hang up. Like I assume that _of course_ they are going to go to their child...

I've never had anyone get offended over that, and it also has staved of conversations where people try to justify cio to me, which quite frankly I'm not interested in having.
Kaly


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
i agree w/karla...i have many friends who practiced CIO and it went smoothly and quickly for them and they have excellent sleepers now...

Oh, so their baby just gave up on them really easy? Nice...








Just because it went quickly and smoothly for the parent doesn't mean that it didn't damage the child. I can't believe anybody on MDC is defending CIO.


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## Jennymama (Feb 19, 2005)

Hmmm I'll probably get kicked off the boards for admitting this but... I'm a terrible awful CIO mommy.

My daughter slept beautifully in her own bed after being nursed to sleep until she was six months old. THen she had a really hard time settling in. As soon as her back would hit the mattress she'd bolt awake. Now, based on your assumptions, I would have tucked her in and let her scream and walked away to enjoy my martinis and eight hours of slepp. But contrary to my very bad reputation I picked her up and soothed her and rocked her and nursed her and did everything I knew to comfort her. She started to sleep with us then and that worked beautifully for about three months. I loved sleeping with her and she slept great. Super! Fine! But at around nine months bedtime became a horror show, we'd lay down to nurse she'd go about five minutes and then start kicking and playing and then crawling around. Then it would take another hour to get her to calm down to sleepy mode and we'd start over again. ANd the same thing would happen. Bedtime became a three hour excercise in frustration for everyone. When she finally did sleep it was fitful and poor and she was tired all the time. Very healthy, right? So we decided to try to move her back to her bed. What the heck. It had worked once, and the current system wasn't working. So we let her cry one night, which she did for about 45 minuts, and then she fell asleep. Slept great. Woke happy. No signs of abandonment, no resentment, no confusion over who loved her. The next might, one half hour. Since then she goes to bed peacefully nearly evry night, and never has any crying, usually form being overtired I think, amounted to more than 15 minutes. I listen, I care and it's upsetting to be pigeonholed as abusive or neglectful for doing what worked for me. Children are different and respond well to different things. Why is that hard so to accept? You might think of what I did as a selfish choice, fine, but I know my daughter and we have an incredibly loving and beautiful relationship. I made choices, with my partner, that I felt were best for her.

I respect the choices of mothers who co-sleep and I have friends who I wish would try it and won't but I've learned one thing and that is that parenting is really personal and what people want is support. If not for their choices - which you may disagree with, then just for their struggle and the difficult decisions we all make. So I can tell you exactly how to respond to CIO MOthers:respect them and if you must voice your opinion, do it in such a way that you are simply sharing your own successes. No one knows a child as well as their mother and what is right for you just might not be right for them.

I think that lifetapestry is right, there are a lot of parents who relaly stuggle and find this is the way that works for them. But it's not so extreme as letting them cry all night. If my babe crys out in the middle of the night I go to to her immediately. I attend to her and comfort her until she is ready to go back to sleep.

I feel awful for any woman who was held down and unable to go to her child inthe night, but come on, that is an extreme case. And I doubt that his distancing himself from his parents is a total result of CIO. I'm thinking the intevening 18 years of parenting might also factor in.

I don't go calling myself an AP mom, because I'm not. But I think all you mommas have a lot of great things to say and a lot of wonderful advice, ideas and support. What a bummer when it becomes a trashing session on other people's parenting styles.

Peace.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennymama*
I feel awful for any woman who was held down and unable to go to her child inthe night, but come on, that is an extreme case. And I doubt that his distancing himself from his parents is a total result of CIO. I'm thinking the intevening 18 years of parenting might also factor in.

Do you really think so? Anyone I've told in either my family or friends that we co-sleep think we're nuts. I get told all sorts of negative things, like "You'll never get him out of your bed." "You're still breastfeeding? You'll have to visit him at grade school during recess!" "That's not healthy." "Looks like he's got you well trained." So people who don't agree with my parenting are allowed to say assy things to me, but when I hear something that affronts me I have to be polite and sweet and modest about it?

I am not ashamed of my parenting decisions.

The problem is that it's such common practice to allow kids to CIO, and the advice I get is "they'll get used to it" with NO thought whatsoever about how it may be impacting the child.

So come on, everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't we? It works for them, right?

People are so blase about letting their children cry that it's become expected of them, and those of us who choose NOT to do that are the "weird" ones and are bucking convention.

I really hate that popular opinion becomes fact and overrides what, for me at least, is common sense. My SIL makes some terrible parenting decisions, ALWAYS based on "I have a friend whose sister's mother's cousin says..." I used to try to recommend books for her to read, or to relate my own successes, but that mystical hand-me-down advice always wins out so I just gave up.










As far as my stepbrother being distant from his parents, I do believe it's related to CIO because along with that little tidbit came a whole mindset of "don't let the child manipulate you" so his upbringing was a very hands-off affair (except for spanking, which was pretty much the only physical contact he got).

I'm not saying that all parents who practice CIO would act the same way, but I do believe opening the door to such practices make other such decisions more likely.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennymama*
I don't go calling myself an AP mom, because I'm not. But I think all you mommas have a lot of great things to say and a lot of wonderful advice, ideas and support. What a bummer when it becomes a trashing session on other people's parenting styles.

Peace.

And...just for the record I didn't even touch your own personal CIO experiences, because I'm sure someone else will have plenty to say. However, I can't see why you're so bummed, you're on one of the only message boards I've been able to find that actually challenges 'popular' culture.

What exactly did you expect to find?


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

My only IRL response is to stare blankly and say, "We don't make our babies cry alone."

I hate debates with people. I always think my one little conversation will probably just get me another enemy and not change a thing. But I do always say what I do with my children.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

SmilingChick wrote that she responds to CIO by

"minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids."

Originally Posted by Jennymama:
"What a bummer when it becomes a trashing session on other people's parenting styles."

mainegirl responded in part:

.... However, I can't see why you're so bummed, you're on one of the only message boards I've been able to find that actually challenges 'popular' culture.








:

As the MDC statement of purpose says,

Quote:

Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/web_sta...ofpurpose.html

To me, that means a recognition that the child's rights should come first when at all humanly possible.

The idea that a mom letting her baby CIO is none of my business isn't really true...if she MAKES it my business by trying to get me to listen to her "techniques" and trying to get her to tell her it's ok with me (it's not.) or worst, makes me listen to her baby scream if I'm visiting or on the phone. Since my heart beats faster and I feel anxious when a baby cries, I can only imagine how the baby feels. Moms get overwhelmed sometimes, and I feel for them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say CIO is just fine and dandy.


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## mahogny (Oct 16, 2003)

I agree with the ones who say that if people aren't asking my opinion, I don't give it. I don't like people pushing their parenting tidbits on to me, so I don't push mine onto other people.

The only time I've made any sort of comment was about a year or so ago. A CIO friend of mine and I were at a bakery having some bagels. My son was not quite 2 1/2, and her son was not quite 2. Her son started crying and crying a very pitiful cry, but she just said that he was sleepy, and tried to make him lay down in the stroller so he would sleep. Well, he would have none of that, and just kept crying and screaming. Finally after about 10 minutes of this (and of my friend and I trying to talk over her son's screaming) she picked him up, and he calmed right down. I said, "Awww, that's all he wanted! He just wanted to be held by his mommy!" This is her 3rd child, and my son is my first, and she likes to play "expert mom" to me. (You all know the type, I'm sure.) She rolled her eyes and said, "No, he needs to sleep."

There was another time that this friend had an emergency come up, so I went to her house to watch her kids. Her son (the same one in the previous story) was alseep, and my friend said that if he woke up, to just "let him CIO." Let me tell you, I was in a quandary - do I go against the mom's wishes and pick him up? I know I would NOT like it if I gave EXPLICIT instructions for my son to not CIO, and my instructions were ignored. But then again, I know I couldn't bear for her son to CIO if I were in charge. But, it turned out to be a moot point anyway, since her son stayed asleep the whole time I was there.


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## Jennymama (Feb 19, 2005)

"What exactly did you expect to find?"

What I HAVE found, thus far, is a supportive environment where women feel safe to talk about the, yes, unpopular choices that are often involved with AP. Just because I don't practice every part of your parenting philosophy doesn't mean I think it doesn't have a lot to offer, and I have gotten a lot of good input and support here. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do what I do because I KNOW it contradicts what you believe. But the OP was "How do you respond to CIO parents?" and I'm saying with respect and tolerance and an understanding that not the same things work for every person. I shared my experience, I guess because I thought it might illustrate a degree of flexibility and responsiveness that I think is probably more common among non-AP moms than you may think. i'm still a conscious parent, I don't follow the status-quo blindly.

What I feel bummed about is that I think sometimes people are even more offput by AP ideas becuase there is no tolerance for anything than 100% AP
parenting. Then they won't try any of it, which is a real shame.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennymama*
"What exactly did you expect to find?"

What I HAVE found, thus far, is a supportive environment where women feel safe to talk about the, yes, unpopular choices that are often involved with AP. Just because I don't practice every part of your parenting philosophy doesn't mean I think it doesn't have a lot to offer, and I have gotten a lot of good input and support here. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do what I do because I KNOW it contradicts what you believe. But the OP was "How do you respond to CIO parents?" and I'm saying with respect and tolerance and an understanding that not the same things work for every person. I shared my experience, I guess because I thought it might illustrate a degree of flexibility and responsiveness that I think is probably more common among non-AP moms than you may think. i'm still a conscious parent, I don't follow the status-quo blindly.

What I feel bummed about is that I think sometimes people are even more offput by AP ideas becuase there is no tolerance for anything than 100% AP
parenting. Then they won't try any of it, which is a real shame.

Look - did I question anything you said about your own personal experiences?

No I did not.

Could I have?

Yes I could have.

And it's not "my" parenting philosophy, I didn't invent it. In fact, the majority of moms I know who agree with the sorts of things I agree with still do things differently from one another.

I never refer to myself as an "AP mom" or someone who practices CIO, for example, as a "mainstream mom" because they're labels, and in labeling ourselves we're just setting ourselves up for failure anyway.

NO ONE is 100% *anything*, unless I were to make up something called the "Jen From Maine Parenting Method" and declare it to consist of whatever choices I happen to make that week.

Please do not put words in my mouth and make it look like I'm trying to divide myself from you, or "We who do not CIO" from "We who CIO".

You want to know the truth?

I think CIO is cruel.

So...I have a very hard time respecting someone who would do this to their child. It's just a fact. They could be the nicest, sweetest person in the world, but if they start defending their CIO stance I immediately tune them out because I am not interested in hearing their excuses.

Does this make me a bitch? Perhaps. Does it make me judgmental and high-and-mighty? No, though I can see how someone who feels I'm focusing on them might think that I am. That's their own guilt and nothing I can control. But I also don't go running around shoving it in everyone's faces. However, you seemed interested and so I've told you.

If you feel guilty, it's your own problem and not mine. I am an opposer of issues, not the people who practice them. I have every right to talk about them and voice my opinion, and I choose the proper venue in which to do so.

P.S. I do not follow anything 'blindly' and I take offense that you would imply that. Also just for the record.


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## Laziza (Jan 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilingChick*
By minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids.









:


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## amma! (Apr 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isosmom*
oh, at some point this will end. I mean, I don't think I've met anyone who likes CIO, they think it's the only thing to do, ykwim?

yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma!*
yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact

If you're American and you do any of these "wacky" types of things you just get called a "damned hippie".

:LOL


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennymama*

What I feel bummed about is that I think sometimes people are even more offput by AP ideas becuase there is no tolerance for anything than 100% AP
parenting. Then they won't try any of it, which is a real shame.

I don't really get this. Is this like the confusing argument I sometimes hear that more moms would breastfeed if bf moms weren't so "radical?" This really doesn't make any sense to me.









There are CIO support boards on the web. There are magazines that support CIO. I don't go to these boards and I don't read these magazines.
I'm very glad MDC exists as an antidote to CIO and safe haven for moms who don't believe in it.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

A pp suggests that cio is fine for mellow babies and I assume feels all babies are mellow hence the exaggerated negative reactions reported here and elsewear







If the sleep trainers include a how to section on dealing with vomitting under duress I think its fair to say it is not an unfrequent occurance. And really if you have such a mellow baby I would guess non cio methods would probably solve your problem. The end does not justify the means when cio is involved imo.


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## Simply Nurtured (Nov 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
If you're American and you do any of these "wacky" types of things you just get called a "damned hippie".

:LOL


OOO, OOOO, Me, me... Can I be a hippie?









:LOL

No, my DH says I will never be a hippie, just a wild child... in a mini skirt.









I know for certain that my mom and both my grandmas never let their children just CIO. So it is not a NEW radical idea...

And my mom is so not a hippie. She always wore "classic" clothing.

I am rambling on, ooops...

What I posted before is what I tell new parents. I mean they want me there, they want me to help them, I AM their doula. Some are getting conflicting ideas and messages from family members, so that is what I tell them. (see my earlier post)


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

How I respond depends on the parent. I have a former friend who tried to let his 10 week old cio at my house. That baby wound up in my moby wrap. Interesting story, if you want to read it click my name and find the post I started months ago about bf someone else's baby.

Well, a few months later he came over again and did the same thing. The first time she was crying I went and got her. He got pretty irritated with me. He eventually put her back in the bedroom, and turned the monitor off this time. She fell asleep after crying about 10 minutes. However, I haven't talked to him since and don't plan to. I have decided that I simply don't want to be friends with him anymore, and the cio thing is a major part of the decision (he also did this with his ds and he is a pretty insecure little guy







)

Now, if I were to meet up with Jennymama, and heard her story, I would not react the same way at all. In fact, I might say something like, "That must've been hard on you to have to resort to that. I understand what it is like to try for hours to put a child down to sleep."

If I think about it, I actually HAVE done CIO. I have held my ds on my chest with him kicking and screaming, crying really hard. This happens after I have been nursing him, rocking him, soothing him, for about an hour. Many times his eyes are just closed and then they pop open and he either wants to play, or wants to cry and throw himself around, or he wants to bite my nipples







: . Meanwhile, this whole time dd has been in the other room all alone. Well, unless you count the tv as a friend







. This is not a good situation and it happens almost daily. I have taken him to the dr 3 times in the past 2 months to make sure nothing is bothering him. I have given him Tylenol for teething. I have given him homeopathic remedies. I have tried taking him on car rides. The sling no longer works. If we owned a crib, I have to admit that I might very well be in Jennymama's shoes. I would hate it, and I don't know if I honestly would really do it. But seriously, you can only up your Zoloft so many times...

I plan to try Dr. Jay's method for nighttime weaning soon, and am working on a good naptime routine. But my point is (after all that...) I understand that there are different degrees of CIO. While I am definitely against it in general, I also know that few parents have truly experienced a really really *REALLY* bad sleeper. It is hard to see this over the internet, but when I hear Jennymama say she has a close bonded relationship with her dd, I believe her. I know moms who call themselves AP but don't even notice when their baby is crying on the floor next to them. Then other moms have no idea what AP is, but if observe them for a few minutes it becomes clear they follow the AP philosophy.

Ok, I keep editing this post over and over... it is as clear as it is gonna get. I never was good at essays... :LOL


----------



## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Ooo! Oooh! I have an ancedote!

But first...I want to make very clear that Jennymama and I are NOT sworn enemies. We're talking via PM and it's obvious that we're not hating on one another. I will reiterate that I hate the practice of CIO, not the people who practice it, and I am very passionate about voicing my opinion.

Okay, on to the ancedote!

When I was home with my son (my first and only, so far!) my doula came to visit me. I was still in that weird "argh I'm going to break him!" stage so was handling him so gingerly, and I was extra nervous because here was a woman with four children there to witness my ineptitude. At one point Michael started crying and I was holding him, trying to soothe him. She held out her arms to me so I handed him off, and she said,

"The best way to stop babies from crying is not to let them start!"

And of course Michael chose that moment to become Zen Buddha Baby of Calmness and Peace.

I felt so crushed, like I was a total failure because I couldn't keep Michael from crying! He cried about all sorts of stuff! Poop! Food! Clothes! No clothes! I was so exhausted and PPD and here was this squalling little bundle of flailing limbs and I COULDN'T DO IT!

Looking back, however, I realize that she was just trying to be helpful and offer some advice that she lives by. It did help me be a more aware parent, and more responsive to his needs, but it also dealt me a good dose of humility because I realized there is no way that you can keep a child from ever crying.

In fact, I remember saying to myself, "It is my goal to see if I can make it one entire day with no crying!"

:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

Yeah, okay, I was naive. Kidlet is 21 months now and I have NEVER had a day that he hasn't cried at all. These days the waterworks turn on at terrible, awful things like, "It's time for dinner!" and "Let's get dressed!"

Toddlers are like PMSing women.

Anyway, I don't know where that was going, except to say that it's easy to take advice given with care and take it too personally.

The End.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Simply Nurtured*
I know for certain that my mom and both my grandmas never let their children just CIO. So it is not a NEW radical idea...

And my mom is so not a hippie. She always wore "classic" clothing.

My mom did CIO and frequently has expressed guilty feelings about it.

My MIL and her mom did not use CIO.

Not a Birkenstock nor a paisley skirt wearer among them.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
My mom did CIO and frequently has expressed guilty feelings about it.

My MIL and her mom did not use CIO.

Not a Birkenstock nor a paisley skirt wearer among them.









It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH!

Damn hippies.


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## lifetapestry (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
I can't believe anybody on MDC is defending CIO.









And I can't believe that anyone anywhere thinks so simplistically. There are a broad range of behaviors that fit within "CIO" and there are undoubtedly numerous ways that babies respond to it. And many of the people I know believed that they were responding -- to their babies' need for sleep -- by engaging in some of what I would consider to be gentle CIO strategies. And most of the people I've talked to believe that it was the best thing for their children and noted positive changes in them afterwards (though I've also talked to some people who had negative experiences). If a co-sleeper or an extended BF'er claimed that those practices were best for their children and someone on here doubted that, she'd be flamed to h^ll and back. Just because I personally disagree with that parenting strategy (as in CIO) doesn't mean that I distrust when parents that I know say it was best for their kids. I wish I could point to some objective piece of evidence, or some annoying characteristic in the children that I know, that seems to indicate that these children are "damaged." But I can't. I definately believe that children can be damaged (and I know some parents who say so), but I just dont' believe that all children are damaged.

Sometimes I think these boards are just turning into a big kvetch about all those other parents who are so inferior to us here at MDC. I wish I understood the need to put people down whose parenting practices you disagree with. And anytime someone says that the world is more complex that this, that there is a wide range within any kind of parenting behavior, you get put down too.

I come here for insight on how to be a more responsive and nurturing mother. It doesn't help me be a better mother to put other people down, and I suspect it doesn't help anyone else either.

Finally, you should recognize before you go assuming that everyone is the same as you, that there is a great deal of diversity, in parenting styles and in all other ways, of the members here. There is no litmus test on what we all have to believe in order to be a member here. What a tedious and mindless place this would be otherwise.

Karla


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
Finally, you should recognize before you go assuming that everyone is the same as you, that there is a great deal of diversity, in parenting styles and in all other ways, of the members here.

I think that by saying "you" as a general pronoun meaning "everyone who believes XYZ" that you (meaning personally) should follow your own advice









Unless you're just referring to Kathryn, but I don't get the feeling you were.


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## ayme371 (Jan 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*

You want to know the truth?

I think CIO is cruel.

So...I have a very hard time respecting someone who would do this to their child. It's just a fact. They could be the nicest, sweetest person in the world, but if they start defending their CIO stance I immediately tune them out because I am not interested in hearing their excuses.

Does this make me a bitch? Perhaps. Does it make me judgmental and high-and-mighty? No, though I can see how someone who feels I'm focusing on them might think that I am. That's their own guilt and nothing I can control. But I also don't go running around shoving it in everyone's faces.









:


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH!

I KNOW! :LOL


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
I KNOW! :LOL

I KNOW YOU KNOW!

DAMN HIPPIES!!!!!








boy:


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
I KNOW YOU KNOW!

DAMN HIPPIES!!!!!









:


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifetapestry*
I do believe that extreme CIO practices, that result in hours of crying over a prolonged period of time, must be bad for kids and their relationships with their parents. But I remain unconvinced that all CIO can be labeled as the horror that some advocate.

Ok, but where should the line be drawn?

I for one advocate no CIO at all for many reasons. One is that there is no set time when it becomes detrimental to a child.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Ok, but where should the line be drawn?

I for one advocate no CIO at all for many reasons. One is that there is no set time when it becomes detrimental to a child.

I posted another thread in this forum about hearing damage...if a baby cries at 110 decibels, it only takes one minute, 29 seconds before hearing damage occurs. I'd never thought of it like that before, but there is a very real potential for such a thing totally separate from the emotional issue.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
i agree w/karla...i have many friends who practiced CIO and it went smoothly and quickly for them and they have excellent sleepers now...


So the only possible effects are seen immediately? I think people often go for the short term, they live in the now. But what about down the road? What about long term effects? And manifestations of being abandoned and made to be indepedent before you are ready?


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
So the only possible effects are seen immediately? I think people often go for the short term, they live in the now. But what about down the road? What about long term effects? And manifestations of being abandoned and made to be indepedent before you are ready?

Have you seen this link?
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

And where is the thread that was posted recently from an MDC mom whose baby cousin burst a blood vessel in the throat and the mother was no longer "allowed" to let the baby CIO?


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Mainegirl,








I had no idea. Wow. Yet another reason not to use CIO. But I am not physically capable of it.

Here is an antcedote for you. I took care of the kids in one family for 5 years when I was in college. The twins were subjected to CIO since their mom had a new baby.. I came in when they were 1.8 years when their mother had the new baby. They were both acting out a lot, horrible at bedtime. It was a massive fight. And it broke my heart to listen to them cry (this at 17. It emotionally scarred me. I can still hear their desperate cries.) I was responsible for bedtime every night. Finally, I suggested to the mother, who I considered a friend, that the CIO and the behavior could be connected. She agreed to let me lay in there and see what happens. Within a few days they asked to go to bed and never fought again. After a month or two of me being there and knowing they could count on me to come in if they did need me, they went to bed easily and with little help.

They may or may not be connected, but in this case ending one behavior also ended another.

I have friends who berate me for not letting my son cry at all, not letting him be independent (which is laughable because he is very independent). I definitely make my views known.

I think the most frustrating thing with people I know who plan to or do use CIO is that they just take that as the solution. All I ask is that people be informed, but many are not. They do it because so and so said to, the book said to do it. If people came to the table with facts and support, it makes something easier to debate (debating opinions is not the easiest one).


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
Have you seen this link?
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

And where is the thread that was posted recently from an MDC mom whose baby cousin burst a blood vessel in the throat and the mother was no longer "allowed" to let the baby CIO?


I feel like I have, but I may have not. :LOL Thanks for posting it.

Quote:

The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries *may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.
*
Bold mine.

So there is proof this leads to future problems. I need to send this link to some friends. Especially the woman who told me to use a stick if my son woke up in the middle of the night
















Does anyone know when CIO become popular? (I know my siblings and I were not CIOers when we were born from 77-84, but I only know my family) I am curious as to how it correlates with the numbers in PTS and panic disorders.

Quote:

Additionally, the nation's growing wealth has helped the trend toward separation by giving families the means to buy larger homes with separate rooms for children.

*The result, Commons and ****** said, is a nation that doesn't like caring for its own children, a violent nation marked by loose, nonphysical relationships.*

"I think there's a real resistance in this culture to caring for children," Commons said. But "punishment and abandonment has never been a good way to get warm, caring, independent people."


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Last week I was at my in-laws and my littlest baby







boy: had fallen asleep on my shoulder, he was snoozing blissfully while I was sitting down - we were both quite content and happy.

My FIL says "Why don't you go put him down and take a break?" I said "No that's OK we are happy - and besides if I put him down by himself he will be upset and start crying." FIL says "So let him cry - he needs to learn that life isn't fair, might as well teach him now."







:

I can't see ANY good reason why a 12 week old baby needs to learn that life isn't fair!! And I can't see any good reason why a baby needs to cry by him or herself. Yet this is the type of crap I hear all the time, from my in-laws, from my parents, from others around me.

I don't like labels and I don't like to fight about a list of requirements to be "AP" but I do think at it's core is a fundamental belief that parents should make choices based on their instincts. And listening to a baby cry SHOULD go against a parent's instinct. I too am very surprised anyone would advocate CIO on MDC.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

You know, most people don't research their parenting extensively, find the right solution, and then implement it. Most people do whatever they feel like doing, and then implement an extensive rationlization process to justify doing what they wanted to do.

My experience is that you might influence someone by finding a really nonjudgmental way of suggesting it, or you might influence someone by modeling what you do with your own children. But by and large, people do what they want to do. And, lots of people want to sleep through the night and they don't really care if there is some theoretical "risk" that it might affect the attachment of the baby, which is not something that you can quantify very well.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I've only run into this online. I usually make a comment about how I like to be there as much as I can when they are babies in order to build up trust so that they will be confident and independent later on instead of worried that I might not be there.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Hola Karla,

Now I see why you were so adamant about dismissing the research...

for those who are interested, check out a very related thread:

http://69.20.14.30/discussions/showthread.php?t=260344
(The "baby sleep training is a fast-growing industry" thread).

Karla and I got into a debate of sorts. I won't rehash it here (and I won't get into it with you again, Karla, who has the time to be repetitive?) -- y'all can just read it on the other thread.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
I need to send this link to some friends. Especially the woman who told me to use a stick if my son woke up in the middle of the night
















OK, I hate to ask, but what did this woman think the stick should be used for?


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma!*
yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact

I'm not Indian, but I was raised that way. I do what I do because of that


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Meco,

The PTS and panic disorders are most likely a result of the damage elevated levels of cortisol do to various parts of the brain. I've thoroughly read mass amounts of scientific research, and I've been in touch with Commons at Harvard (he's a very nice man). To be brief, an infant under the age of one year is particularly susceptible to elevated levels of cortisol, which is produced in copious amounts during crying spells. Long-term, negative consequences on parts of the brain appear extremely likely. See the thread I mentioned above for a bit more detail.

One day I'll clean up the typos in my thesis prospectus and just post a link to it in my signature. It'll summarize much of the research, along with providing references to all the papers.

Forgive my horrible writing today, I have a toddler trying to stand on my lap while my infant sleeps on my shoulder...


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyBug & BabyBug*
OK, I hate to ask, but what did this woman think the stick should be used for?










I was traveling, and I mentioned how my son wanted to play during the night-not that I care. She brought it up.

Then she told me to get her almost 3 year old to stay in bed and not cry, she hit and threatened him with a stick.







:







She also gave me a Growing Kids God's Way or one of the







s: books that she "lives by." You know, the spare the rod, spoil the child B.S.

She also told me I am doing my son a disservice by not using physical punishment. Wonder of all wonders--her son has many issues with cooperation, respect and behavior. So far my son has not exihibited any.

eta: I feel horrible for her 2 children. Worse though is she is a pastor's wife, and she spreads this gospel and God's one and true way to the women in her church. She teaches classes on it.







Including my poor just married sister







: I am pissed at how long it will take me to undo that brainwashing.







:


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I just wanted to point out that when a baby cries, that is not automatically CIO. CIO = CRY IT OUT. In other words, leave the baby in isolation to cry alone. Some people feel they are more humane when they periodically check on the baby at specified intervals, but there is always a leave the baby to cry alone component. If your baby is crying in your arms, it is not CIO. If your baby is crying on your lap, it's not CIO. If your baby is crying on the bed next to you, it's not CIO. If you are present and attempting to comfort your baby in some way, it's not CIO.

Sometimes babies need to vent and that's fine. But we can let them know we are there to listen. We dont' even have to solve it. You're not a bad mom if your baby cries. But a good friend would be there to listen to you if you needed to vent without offering judgments or pat solutions that just end up bothering you. Why not do the same for your babies?

I went through those phases with my kids where they were really confused about what they needed to do. Between teething pain and the desire to continue crawling because they just learned how to do it and being overtired, sometimes they did need to be left alone to vent until falling asleep. But I didn't stick them in a dark room and leave. I did lots of things like put a pillow on the floor next to me so they could roll around and vent until they fell asleep or laid on the bed with them and continued to help them back up everytime they climbed down until they were physically exhausted enough to sleep. I've even strapped a baby onto my body with a sling and paced the hall really quickly so they wouldn't try to climb out and would be forced to go to sleep. I've also put them in a stroller and sang songs while pushing it back and forth in the living room. I've even driven around the neighborhood with them strapped in their carseats while keeping up a soothing monologue. I don't consider any of that CIO.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

nak

Kavamamakava,

Yes -- and I should clarify that the research that exists is on mother-infant seperaration/infant isolation and obvious infant distress.

There are actually papers out there on monkey infants separated from their moms and put in another room alone, and infants separated from their moms but placed where they could still see/hear their moms. Both sets of infants made distressing sounds (I guess their way of crying) -- but the ones that were isolated had the skyrocketing cortisol.

Yes, CIO means the infant is alone and mama is purposefully ignoring the cries.

Again forgive the spelling errors -- juggling children here...time to go outside and play!


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

So, does that mean Jo Frosts method of CIO isn't harmful? I still would never do that to my child, but I'm just curious


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amma!*
yeah just like globalisation.

my problem is that whatever i do, be it family bed, breastfeeding, slinging ... people think i am doing it because i am indian. so ti kind of makes them all the more righteous in their 'american' way of child raising. in fact

Amma,
For what it's worth I generally feel more comfortable around the Indian families I meet when out and about than I do the "typical (non-AP) American" families because I know (from what I have learned here on MDC) that Indian parents (and grandparents, etc) are usually much more kind to their children. I hope I worded that right... lol I'm trying to type and keep dd entertained :LOL

And in response to the OP: It depends on the situation. The first time I had ever been exposed to CIO was with a friend of mine and her dd (who was about 18-20 months at the time). We were at their house, talking, watching the guys play video games and 9 pm rolls around. Leading up to 9 pm my friend had been telling her dd "15 minutes till bedtime" "5 minutes left", etc and when it came time she picked her daughter up (who was alread crying because she didn't want to go to bed), carried her upstairs, stayed up there for a little while calming her down and came back downstairs. As soon as her dd's door was closed behind mommy the little one was crying. 10 minutes later we're sitting on the couch and dd is screaming and crying "mommy mommy, please" and I just felt like crying, and I said to my friend "I don't know how you do that, I couldn't listen to it" and she replied "Yea, it's hard".

A different friend of mine (also an ex-girlfriend) had her dd six weeks after I had my dd and was living with her ILs (bad idea) and her MIL has heavy influence in that house. MIL told her to let her dd CIO and my friend being inexperienced and easily influenced (as is her nature) did it. Well, she was telling me about it on the phone and told me she would cry outside the baby's door because it broke her heart. I told her it was because she was going against her instincts, she knew she was doing something wrong and to knock it off, listen to her instincts and stop being cruel to her child. I told her that her dd is HER child, not her MILs so do what she thought was right. She thanked me. No, I wouldn't speak like that to everyone, I know this woman very well and know how to speak with her to get through to her without offending her.

In general if someone, say in a playgroup or similar setting, were preaching the miracles of CIO I'd probably tell them I think it's a cruel practice and I could never do something so disrespectful to my child.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

I am not familiar with Jo Frost. Summary anywhere?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

How do you define CIO? When I had ds, I always held him until he went to sleep. He slept with me and my ex until he was about a year old. After he moved into his own room, we always kept his door and our door open so we could hear him in the night. If he woke up, I'd go get him and bring him into bed with us. He only stopped crawling into bed with me (my ex and I had split up by then) on occasion when he was about 8.

DD was a different story. She would cry every night from 11pm until about 3am. We couldn't get her to sleep, no matter what we did. Any kind of interaction just seemed to provide her with a distraction, and she fought sleep like I couldn't believe. My dh started taking her downstairs and just holding her on his knee until she stopped crying...three or four hours every single night. (I was post-op from a c-section, and he wanted me to get my rest so I could recover more quickly. I love that man!!) Anyway...dd finally started sleeping better, and she co-slept until she was about 20 or 21 months old. Now, she sleeps in her own bed in our room, and if she wakes up, we pick her up and rock her until she goes back to sleep. _But_, her naps are a different story. Usually, we put her in her bed, and she snuggles in and goes to sleep. But, if she gets too tired, that doesn't work - she just freaks out and cries and screams. If she gets to that point, we have to leave her alone to go to sleep. If we stay with her, she just does what she used to - uses us as a distraction and fights sleep with everything in her little body and soul. If we leave her alone, she's asleep in five minutes - every time. Is that CIO? Because I really think letting her scream in misery for a couple of hours would be worse for her...even if I were holding her.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
I am not familiar with Jo Frost. Summary anywhere?

Jo Frost is Super Nanny (







)
She advocates CIO, but she sits in a chair next to the crib and just sits there. She says not to touch the baby, look at the baby or talk to the baby. She says that each night you move the chair closer to the door until you are no longer in the room.

To me that would be more horrible for the child.


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## Simply Nurtured (Nov 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
I KNOW YOU KNOW!

DAMN HIPPIES!!!!!








boy:


I know too...









But I have been working all afternoon, so I have not been here to answer. Postpartum, I love it, it is not really work to me. I get to hold babies, yay!

And I wear birks, but I also wear platform shoes, the taller the better.









But inside there is a part of me that really is about 10% hippie, ok???

:LOL







:LOL Do you still love me?

My middle one was a mellow guy, nothing fazed him, was born quietly staring at his daddy and I and nursed within a minute of his birth as if he had done it for years...

My oldest and my youngest were the high need dudes, and totally velcro. They cried, but I could not leave them in a room to CIO, I would not been able to stand it. I was doing AP 20+ years ago, but it was just an instinct, truthfully, just as my mother and grandmothers before did.

Jen, love ya~










`Wanda


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## MamaTT (Aug 29, 2003)

Mothering Magazine had a really fascinating article within the last year or so about _in-arms_ crying and how it can potentially be very healthy and healing.

Don't know if that has been brought up or not, but I wanted to put it out there.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

*reading this thread with interest* other parentings boards have gotten to the point that if someone posts an anti-CIO or even pro-cosleeping post, agreeable posters are scared to respond (but will PM like crazy) and the mods end up closing the threads if the tiniest anti-CIO advice creeps into it.









why put up with mainstream boards? because i end up being a "good influence" to lurkers and even a few regular posters, so i feel like if i help even one mama stop CIO and even co-sleep, it's worth the aggravation. also because i'm an artist and i like to have a graphical sig with pics in it









anyway ... there's a thread this week celebrating one mama who decorated her 7-mo-old daughter's HELMET so pretty, and what a "trooper" she is. why does her daughter need a helmet?? because her mama let her lie alone in her bed all night, she used CIO at first and then the baby just plain gave up, and became a "good sleeper." so good her mama didn't need to check on her for 8 whole hours, in which time she gradually flattened one side of her head.

every time i try to point out that CIO *might* be at fault for any problem - nighttime vomiting, head flattening, persistent gaze avoidance, overly-clingy baby after waking, poor napping (i.e. screaming in fear of crib), etc., i get slammed with "you have NO idea what a problem baby she is" or "don't ever tell me what to do" or "my baby sleeps fine. and he's such a happy baby, he smiles at me every morning when i come in!" (well of course he smiles, he MISSED her all night!).























i finally figured out, all i have to do is post my "success stories" as if they are perfectly "the norm." like when someone posts "how do you get your baby to sleep?" that way it's always in "i ___" and "for me, ___" format. speaking one-to-one, "for me, (this or that method) works" seems non-offensive and usually sparks a good discussion.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

meco: no wonder that preacher's kids are always the worst behaved!!!!(or at least from what i've seen!!!)

i've only ever known one indian family, but they did not practice ap parenting. i was friends with their daughter. i felt so bad for her. her parents treated her like crap and so did her older brother. not to say that anyone of any race/ethnicity practices any one type of parenting, just my experience.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
So, does that mean Jo Frosts method of CIO isn't harmful? I still would never do that to my child, but I'm just curious

From what was explained, it seems the Jo Frost method is to deliberately ignore your child's need for you. If you have a child who is overstimulated and needs space for a few minutes and you KNOW this for a fact, that is not ignoring your child's needs. If you sit there and rationalize and decide you must ignore your child and it's tearing you apart inside, then it's just plain wrong.

I sometimes have to play this game in my head with my kids when they are tired. If I look at them or stimulate them in any way by my presence it wakes them up a little. So say I'm watching TV or reading a book or on the computer on my couch and my little insomniac is fighting sleep. I'll give her a pillow on the floor and she'll roll around and whine a bit and sometimes cry. But I'm right there and she can come climb on my lap if she wants. In this scenario, she would be on my lap already if she hadn't resisted and climbed down. If I get up to go to the bathroom, I disrupt her process. If I dramatically shift position on the couch, she notices and wakes up some. But if I just stay relatively still and remain calm, she falls asleep.

That's not my preferred way of helping her get to sleep, but that's a peek into my life when one of my kids gets so overtired that she can't go to sleep and none of my soothing efforts work. I don't think that is the same as putting a chair next to a crib but not holding a baby who wants to be held. I dont' think that's CIO at all, actually.


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## Vicitoria (Dec 17, 2004)

Why respond at all? It's none of my business.


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vicitoria*
Why respond at all? It's none of my business.

Please don't take this the wrong way... just a funny observation.
I laughed when I read your post, then read your siggy (the part about changing the world). :LOL


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SmilingChick*
By minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids.

i agree with that to a point. but it becomes my business when my daughter starts to interact with the children of other parents. i'm surrounded by people of all ages who were badly parented because of society's ever-changing "norms," or the words of "experts" who are out to make a fast buck, or mis-informed medical professionals, etc. and their problems tend to influence my life and the lives of others around them. so how other people raise their kids eventually becomes a societal problem that all of us have to deal with.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

I feel like it becomes my business when friends want to tell me all about it, in gruesome detail, or talk to me on the phone while their kiddo screams in the background, or have their kid cio at my house.

Kaly


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

For me, the most difficult thing is having to defend MY parenting choice to not use CIO. Under pressure from family and friends, I did try to let my second baby CIO once. This ended in her vomiting all over herself and the crib. (Yes, it DOES happen) I swore I'd never listen to that advice again. Unfortunately, I am surrounded by CIO people. I have one friend who does the family bed thing, but the rest of my family and friends are huge CIO people and are always making snide and rude comments about our choices. We have three girls 6,5 and 2. THey ALL sleep with dh and I in our cozy king sized bed. We "outgrew" the queen size when #2 arrived.

It amazes me that we are supposed to respect the choice of CIO parents, but they don't have to respect our choices. I have cited the research and suggeted books many times, but I end up frustrated.







: I actually find myself hiding the fact that we have a family bed from many people, just to avoid the need to defend our style of parenting.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I don't say anything directly. But...whenever I'm at one certain neighbor's house, it always seems to be in the evening at her baby's bed time. She puts the baby to bed and every single time I've ever been there (yes, EVERY single time!) the baby (now 7 months old, but this has been going on since 8 weeks) cries until I leave. The longest I can ever take it is 30 minutes, usually less though. So usually around 10 minutes later I say, "Oh, she's really upset!" Neighbor always responds with "Well, she's just overstimulated/teething/overtired." She has some excuse every time, like it isn't a regular occurance, even though I know it happens at least once a week because I'm there to witness it at least that often. Then about 5 minutes later I'll say, "I'm going to go home so you can take care of the baby. See you tomorrow!" And I pretty much just leave, no matter what she says, but I keep saying that I know she needs to take care of the baby.

I am very, very against CIO in all forms, but I never say anything except for in situations like that or in situations where someone questions MY nighttime parenting choices or makes me listen to how great CIO is. For example, if BIL, who believes my DD is going to be horrible and manipulative because we don't make her CIO, makes a stupid comment, then I will tell him how I feel about CIO. Or if he says how CIO works so well, I will just say, "I don't believe a crying baby should *EVER* be ignored." Otherwise, I don't talk about it at all.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *writermommy*
It amazes me that we are supposed to respect the choice of CIO parents, but they don't have to respect our choices. I have cited the research and suggeted books many times, but I end up frustrated.







: I actually find myself hiding the fact that we have a family bed from many people, just to avoid the need to defend our style of parenting.

I totally agree. I feel like this often and it's not fair.

I've been working really hard to put my parenting right out there, not in an offensive way, but just a present way. When people are over to my house, they'd better be ready to see part of a boobie. I'm going to talk about cosleeping like it's the most natural thing in the world, because it is for us.

At first I was really, really nervous about mentioning these things, but then I realized that if my friends or family judge me it's their problem and not mine. However, what I've found to be the case is that over time things have changed...my best male friend no longer looks away when I nurse my son and I don't cover with a blanket. My husband's aunts, who declared that my child shouldn't wear anything but name-brand clothes (they're very trendy) don't leave the room when I breastfeed in front of them and don't get nervous about our mentioning cosleeping any more. They might not agree with me and I'm SURE we're some fantastic grist for the rumor mill, but they accept it in their presence and that to me is a huge success.

Even though I get very foamy-at-the-mouth and will jump up on my soapbox when challenged, most of the work I do to change public perception is to simply practice it and let people see it. It's so hard, but I've stopped worrying quite so much about someone getting offended, because it's their hangups and not mine.

Rambly, I know. Don't get me started! :LOL


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Mainegirl, I could have totally written that exact post.

I still will catch the occasional strange look when I mention that we co-sleep or that my 2 1/2 year old is still nursing or whatever - but to us it is normal and we love the way we live so if someone else has a problem with it - it's their problem not ours.


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Mainegirl, I could have totally written that exact post.

I still will catch the occasional strange look when I mention that we co-sleep or that my 2 1/2 year old is still nursing or whatever - but to us it is normal and we love the way we live so if someone else has a problem with it - it's their problem not ours.









It really does make me crazy.

I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"

Oh, sorry, getting off topic there. I can't think of a good way to go insane in public about cosleeping. When I think of one, though, I'll let you know!

This really makes me want to start selling advocacy t-shirts - my parents own a silkscreening shop so I could do whatever I wanted.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"









: I would LOVE to see the news headlines after that!!!


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meco*
Then she told me to get her almost 3 year old to stay in bed and not cry, she hit and threatened him with a stick.







:









I had a feeling that's what you were going to say. I feel so bad for her little boy.









I'm on a mailing list with other local military wives and one of them advocated CIO the other day and recommended it to me. I just replied that, while it works for some families, it was not the right choice for our family. That was as neutral as I could be.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"









:







:







:


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mainegirl*
It really does make me crazy.

I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"

Oh, sorry, getting off topic there. I can't think of a good way to go insane in public about cosleeping. When I think of one, though, I'll let you know!

:LOL :LOL :LOL

Once my mom made some comment about our family bed and some reference to changing our name to the Jacsksons (Michael).







:

I would like to run through her next Garden Club meeting (topless of course) screaming "*I am not a child molester*!"


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## dswmom (Nov 17, 2002)

I find it so odd that talking parenting is a topic that people consider off limits. Why shouldn't we be able to talk openly with our friends and family members about issues that are near and dear to our hearts? In particular, CIO or co-sleeping. Sure, the choices we make as parents are highly personal, but if you make a choice that is educated and well thought out, then there should be no defensiveness or frustration in talking about it to others.

A pp mentioned that "mainstream" parents have no trouble telling those who go against the grain how wrong they are. Why is this so true? I personally don't agree with telling someone how wrong they are or how bad their choices are, but I do believe in educating and planting seeds. Therefore, if I had some good "one liners" to throw out to those who mention crying it out, then maybe a seed could be planted and eventually a mind enlightened and so on....

So many good discussions going on...so many lucky little babies out there with mommies who realize that crying to sleep is not a necessity.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dswmom*
I find it so odd that talking parenting is a topic that people consider off limits. Why shouldn't we be able to talk openly with our friends and family members about issues that are near and dear to our hearts? In particular, CIO or co-sleeping. Sure, the choices we make as parents are highly personal, but if you make a choice that is educated and well thought out, then there should be no defensiveness or frustration in talking about it to others.

Well, I think there are quite a lot of us who feel we've made very educated parenting decisions but still feel defensive or frustrated in talking with others - mainly because our parenting style is criticized or attacked or our motivations questioned.

Parenting is off-limits to a lot of people because it's through parenting that our dearest core values become clear - stuff we don't frequently talk about with people day to day. Are you religious? Hate republicans? Feel like fat people are freaks? (not you personally, the collective you) If so, these things come out in your parenting decisions and in parenting discussions.

That's why a lot of us don't talk to many people IRL about parenting stuff - we come here to do it.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I found a blog with an interesting discussion of CIO

Quote:

In Dr. Jay Gordon's book on the family bed called Good Nights he has a whole chapter of arguments against the "Cry-It-Out" (CIO) philosophy. The most telling section is a three-page section quoting the major CIO proponents' opinions on what happens if your baby cries so much that they throw up. I highly recommend reading just these two pages to see the cavalier way these authors treat both vomiting and head-banging. One author (Jodi Mindell) not only says that vomiting is "no big deal" but she actually says "For young children, vomiting can even be fun." Another book called Healthy Sleep Habits actually encourages parents to let the child vomit and then fall asleep in their own vomit . Dr. Gordon's priceless comment afterwards is "(We didn't realize that falling asleep in one's own vomit was a healthy sleep habit.)" The other books quoted don't go quite so far as to say that you should just leave them in vomit until they sleep, but they do advocate a detached clean-up process whereby you would enter the room and undertake the clean-up without picking up, talking to, or even making eye contact with the baby. The premise is that, if the baby throws up and then gets attention and carrying, this will "reinforce" the vomiting. But to me this whole routine sounds like something out of Abu Ghrayb.
http://islamicparenting.blogspot.com...659006099.html


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
Are you religious? Hate republicans? Feel like fat people are freaks? (not you personally, the collective you) If so, these things come out in your parenting decisions and in parenting discussions.

That's why a lot of us don't talk to many people IRL about parenting stuff - we come here to do it.

















So, you don't talk to people about these things IRL?

I don't see how people can have friendships without talking about our values. What do you talk about then? And how do you know your friends share similar values to your own?


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