# OMG it gets worse (see post 7)



## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

So, yesterday when I went to collect DS age 4.5 from school his teacher tells me that the other children have been complaining he is hitting them in the playground.

They have a behaviour chart system where each child starts the day with a sunshine and if they are naughty it gets changed to a cloud (it can revert to a sunshine if they apologise) and if they continue to a cloud with rain. Well, yesterday he got the cloud with rain for the first time and I spoke about it with him later. He seems incapable of telling me why he is hitting, but I'm sure it can't be entirely unprovoked. We talked about different ways he could react if he felt like hitting, such as vocalising how he is feeling, counting to ten or just walking away. I feel it is a problem that he won't tell the teacher if someone is hitting or pushing him and he has told me this has happened on numerous occasions.

Well I went to pick him up today hoping that things would have been better. But no, much worse. Apparently he bit someone today and the teacher asked him why and he either wouldn't or couldn't say. He ended up having to go and see the headmaster and having to sit in the 'thinking chair' whilst the other children played. I have tried to ask him about it by asking him how he was feeling and what happened before he bit the other boy. My DS says that this other boy called him stupid.

I could do with some advice on how to react, how to discuss this with school, what could be causing him to behave in this way. Generally speaking he is an affectionate, caring child (particularly with younger children and babies) but I noticed that things changed when he started attending school fulltime in September. Within 1-2 weeks he was showing aggression, aiming kicks and hits at us (although not with contact). He has regularly complained to me about other children pushing, hitting and pinching him. He says he doesn't tell the teacher because he forgets by the time he has come inside.

When he was in the nursery class, mornings only, before summer, his teacher never alerted us to any disruptive or aggressive behaviour. He frequently complains that he doesn't like the other children because they are always hitting and pushing him. He says he doesn't have any friends, but I have seen him interact with other children on the walk to and from school and when dropping him off.

It seems to me that better supervision is needed outside if children are having to run inside to tell the teacher about problems on the playground. I am quite bewildered by this change of behaviour and I feel that perhaps the teachers should be watching him carefully and giving him techniques to use instead of hitting for when he is angry or frustrated (presuming that this is what he is feeling). He has never been keen on school but doesn't seem to dread going.

I'm at a loss as to what to do and how to solve these problems. I have to say that he's been getting pretty difficult at home recently, very argumentative and never seems to pay attention. Anyway, I could use any sympathy, help or ideas. I feel really sad and like I'm losing my lovely boy. I'm been really careful to show him lots of love and give him plenty of attention even though I'm pretty cut up about what's happening at school.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

It sounds like an issue you need to bring to the directors attention. There should never be a time when the children are unsupervised. It may be that he doesn't feel comfortable talking to the teacher when he is being hurt by other kids and that is something you need to bring to the director's and the teacher's attention. I taught dd to say "don't hit me" loudly when she was hit and to tell the teacher that she is trying to find a solution to a problem with her friend but it isn't working and she needs help. This is received much better by them than words that they percieve as tattling.

A change of schools may help, especially if they are unwilling to improve their supervision. But you may still need to work on helping him find alternate solutions at home. Even if he is being hit, there is never a time when it is okay for a child to hit or bite at school so it is very important that you talk to his teacher's about the hitting and go to the director about it if they don't respond with more supervision whether you do change schools or not. It is also important to help him realize that violence is never okay at school. Everytime he talks to you about being hurt by a friend or the teacher talks to you about him hurting a friend talk to him about the choices he can make, ask him what he did and what he could have done instead, and remind him about saying don't hit me loudly and about going to the teacher for help.


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## bluebirdiemama (May 2, 2008)

This sounds so unpleasant... for you and your little boy. I wish I could offer some advise. The only thing I can think of is my own transition when I was in 5th from public school in Canada to public school here. It was really difficult, I dealt with it but folding up into myself (if that makes sense). It sounds to me like he's just overwhelmed with being in public school, going from being with you and his daddy most of the time, to being in a big crowd of kids, which are probably not the best behaving, and the change probably makes him feel really lonely.
If this were me I would give him as much attention as possible at home, talk to him about acting out with aggression and tell him that if he needs attention the best way is not to be violent.
I wish I had some really good advice to offer... I hope this gets better for you guys


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

thank you - I wanted to add that when we saw his teacher at open evening a month or so back we thought that there were problems and that DS might be unhappy at school, but she was surprised and completely unaware of anything. Also, he has never in his life slept well at night (often up 3 or more times), but he has recently been calling out a lot in his sleep "no! go away! leave me alone" - we're wondering if this might be a clue that he's unsettled in school. Another thing to add (sorry to be long-winded) is that he attends a Welsh-medium school, but our language at home is predominantly English (though we read to him and sing songs in Welsh and are learning. DH is much further ahead than I am.) I feel like I really want to get this sorted and him happy in his education before our new baby arrives early March. Sometimes I think about taking him out of school entirely - generally we have so much better days when he is at home - but I'm not sure that is wise as I won't be able to spend so much time with him when I have a baby to look after too. We are also keen for him to be bilingual as it is such an advantage around here.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't have a lot of suggestions because I'm not particularly brilliant at this either, but the suggestions you've gotten already sound good to me.

Couple of thoughts: don't be shocked that your ds isn't offering a full, detailed description of these events. IMO that's beyond the abilities of most 4s. Especially if the details aren't entirely flattering to the child in question.









The other thought is that I think One_Girl's idea about "Don't hit me" & then asking a teacher to help them sort it is a good one... I've tried that with my son and it was too complicated for him to handle. So what I did that may be helpful, especially with 4s with varying language abilities, was to suggest he just say "Stop!" and raise his hand in the stop sign (like a police officer directing traffic or like baby signs) - because that's just one word, really general / inclusive and applies whether the other kid is hitting, biting, kicking, spitting, grabbing, pinching, whatever. HTH. It is upsetting when these things happen no matter what, and then discovering it's all under the teacher's radar is even worse. Good luck.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

One thing to remember is that that if you did decide to withdraw him, it wouldn't have to be permanently, maybe just to the beginning of next year. By then he might be better able to cope. Some kids are much better off to wait an extra year to start school, and I think this is particularly true of boys. Personally I tend to think that 4 is too young for kids to be in school all day, 5 or even six seems more appropriate to me.

What about having a few children over to visit? It might give him a chance to try to get along in a smaller setting and you a chance to watch and see what's going on.

I would be really concerned that there are no monitors on the playground.


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

I've just had a phone call from the school and he has kicked a girl in the face! I am so shocked and upset.







Where does he get this from? I think it was in the classroom as well although no-one else saw it. Apparently he was playing with the girl and just kicked her in the face for no reason. He has had to see the headteacher again and has to stay in the classroom over lunchtime and not go out to play. His teacher has asked him about it and all he will say is that it wasn't an accident. He doesn't seem to be able to say why he did it. I can't understand why he has suddenly started doing this this week. He has never shown any violence at school before this. I just don't know where to go from here. I don't know how to get him to open up and tell me what made him do this. There must have been some precursor surely? He knows that hitting etc. is wrong and I have gone through this with him and made sure he knows what to do if someone annoys him or hurts him or if he is angry about something. He actually had a good day yesterday and didn't hurt anyone - and his teacher gave him a star for good behaviour. And I made sure that I acknowledged it and congratulated him on having a good day. And we talked about the good things he did, like he told me he had counted up to 10 and then walked away when another boy had hit him, instead of reacting. I thought maybe it was easier yesterday as the weather was bad so they stayed indoors and watched TV instead of playing in the yard. We are going to arrange a meeting with his teacher next week, but I don't know how we are going to solve anything or find out what is wrong. I just feel so upset and can't wait for term to be over.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

It sounds to me that he is completely overwhelmed with going to school every day.
How long is he there?
How long is his day?
Is this Kindergarten, Preschool or daycare?
If the behavior started when he started full time then I would guess thats a big part of the problem. Is it a new school or the same one that he went to part time?

second, does he know about the baby? Your growing stomach and immenent change mayb be causing him stress too.


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

I am so desperate I am sitting here waiting for replies. thank you so much for replying.
He is at school 9am - 3.20pm five days a week. And yes, I've always felt it was too much for him. But we were told it was all or nothing. He doesn't complain about going to school, but does say frequently that he would prefer to be at home with me. He is in the reception class - which I guess is preschool? I had him at home with me for a 4-day stretch recently because school was closed, and by the fourth day it was like having my little boy back again. I have wondered about taking him out early for Christmas. We will be away a lot around Christmas and I always feel he does better when he spends time at home with me. I find with him going to school fulltime he has barely any time to play with his toys or just to be with us without being rushed to get dressed in the morning or to hurry with his dinner and get ready for bed.
He certainly started showing aggressive tendencies at home within a couple of weeks of attending school fulltime, but he's only started showing them at school this week. I don't feel he's exactly happy there - but I think he would miss it if he weren't going. The nursery class he was in last school year (January - June)
is just an adjacent classroom, so it isn't a new school for him.
He does know about the baby and is very affectionate towards it, wanting to cuddle and kiss my tummy and talk to the baby. But he doesn't go on about it much unless I bring it up. I have such a little bump I'm not changing dramatically yet. And he will say things like "is the baby coming out today Mummy?" He seems to be looking forward to it. I just hope we can sort out his behaviour now as I'm worried things will get more problematic when the new baby arrives.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

I just wrote a long response and it vanished...ugh! I have dealt and am still dealing with similar issues with my DS 5yo. So I don't claim to have any quick fixes, but some ideas for you to gather more info.

I must say that I have a problem with the public nature of the behavior chart. At my son's school they deal with behavior issues in a private and respectful way. The kids that have out of control behavior have a little note on their table spot that the teacher writes a number indicating their level of behavior. The kid knows what it is for but the other kids don't. It gets sent home with the child each day. The teacher has only about 3 kids who need this.

The teacher spends a significant part of the first few weeks working with the kids on how to act around each other, rules for body contact, how to sit in group, how to walk in line with little to no jostling.

I have found it helpful to observe my son at school as I can not only see how my son interacts with different kids but I have a better sense of the classroom expectations, how the teacher handles situations, and the levels of supervision. It allows me to use the same language and phrases when I have to discuss discipline issues with my son.

Some things for you to think about or observe:

1) He may not be ready for full time school. This may be because of social-emotional reasons and/or because of sensory processing difficulties that result in him being bombarded with sensory input that overwhelms him.

2) His sense of personal space might be different. I know from observing my son's K class that some kids get bumped or jostled and feel that they have been "hit".

3) The public display of behavior have trigger some kids to target kids they know will react and cause them to get the cloud or rain.

4) The school or teacher might not have a good understanding of how much time needs to be devoted at this age to teaching social skills.

5) He might be extra impulsive and when an idea pops into his head he simply acts on it.

6) It is unlikely his accounts of events are 100% accurate. Kids this age tend to only mention certain elements of an event because they see things from a single perspective, their own.

It is probably a combo of things but from reading your last post I am guessing it is probably the first post. We had to pull my son from full time daycare because he was getting so stressed from all the sensory input and had started acting very aggressively (hitting, pushing, and biting even when someone was just close and not touching him). The only solution that worked was to pull him out and give him smaller doses of group situations.

I urge you to go observe him in the school setting if possible as it will give you a little more insight. Also have a heart-to-heart with the school about your concerns that the day is too long for him and ask for help designing some solutions.


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## Right of Passage (Jul 25, 2007)

I'm far from a GD guru, I struggle to be as gentle as possible. Just my 2 cents here, so forgive me. It really sounds like he needs to be at home and not at school. Is this class mandatory, are there other schooling options? He sounds like a very sensitive little boy and it's hurting him to #1 be away from home 5 days a week for 6+ hours #2 he's being bullied #3 it sounds like there is not nearly enough supervison to prevent the bulling and violent behaviour that leads to his reaction. If it was one of my boys I'd pull them out and look for another option. Being told all or nothing doesn't sit well with me at all. Good luck, I really hope you can help him get back to himself.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

I'm not trying to minimize the issue but have you looked into food intolerances?
Is he eating things he normally wouldn't at home? (ie. candy, maybe artificial dyes/colours etc)
My dd is very shy quiet, in GENERAL. We were having major behaviour problems though many days and she was actually being very aggressive (as in punching and kicking me in the stomach when I was 7 months pregnant!) and we thought the same thing, where is she getting this??? We took her off wheat and dairy and she's another girl! No more aggressive tendencies. We 'tested' it out a few times and literally every time she got gluten/dairy she went back to her kicking/punching/screaming like she had no control over her body and she could never explain why. The next day she would be very confused at her behaviour.

just something to think about


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

neveryoumindthere said:


> have you looked into food intolerances?
> 
> I don't think it would be a food intolerance. He takes a packed lunch every day and I haven't made any changes to what he takes. We tried eliminating dairy maybe a year or so back to try and help with his allergy to dust mites and silent reflux (which he has pretty much grown out of now), but didn't see any improvements. Mind you, he still sleeps terribly!


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

I agree that he may just not be ready for this much time away from home (which I also think is NORMAL, by the way). It's unreasonable IMO to expect a kid this age to be able to explain or vocalize his feelings -- the result may be that he is only feeling under increasing pressure to do something the adults are asking of him that he truly cannot understand or articulate yet -- which adds to his frustration and anger and fear. (Boys, I think, often have a harder time of this than girls too.)

I would look seriously into finding some other arrangement. I hope you are not stuck in a yearlong contract? And if you are, is there really a problem with him going say 2 or 3 days a week instead of 5, or leaving early in the day? Are they really going to kick you out if you're paying full price but picking him up at lunch or whatever? It's not like he's in the middle of advanced algebra classes...


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## JessicaTX (Jul 9, 2006)

You know how toddlers are prone to violence because they can't communicate? Do you think this might have something to do with your son not being able to communicate as well in welsh as his classmates, so he gets frustrated and lashes out? Transitions are generally hard for kids anyway, and with a new school and a new baby coming, that's a lot for a little guy to bear. I've heard you can give black walnut to help ease transitions, I've heard of people adding it to their water supply when a new baby is joining the family.


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

thank you. I think the public behaviour chart isn't necessarily a good thing either, but I can't see they would change it just for my little boy.
I don't think the teacher has worked on social skills at all, although I'd have to check. I also wonder if his classroom experience is extra stressful because of it being a welsh school - I think most things are done bilingually, but it must be a bit of an issue? The first thing I thought on entering his classroom was "woh, sensory overload!" There are so many toys and bright colours and decorations everywhere - I honestly found it stressful being there for 10 minutes. Might that affect him in the same way? Even my Mum thought it a bit much when she dropped him off there one day last week.
I can't see how I could observe DS at school without impacting on his behaviour. When I have gone into the class before he just clings to me and doesn't join in with the others.
I will certainly think about pulling him out for a while but I'm concerned that he would miss school and that it will be difficult for all of us when the new baby arrives. I also wouldn't know where to find other activities for him during the week. Like he should be interacting with small groups of children his own age, but where to find them (they're all in school!) Or should I try him in a different school with smaller numbers? There are I think two reception classes (which mix frequently) with about 18 children in each class.


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## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

I pulled my son out of school in the middle of kindergarten for very similar reasons. He wasn't hitting, but he was having trouble sitting as long as they required, and so his squirming often turned into unacceptable (in a school setting) behavior.

I only put him in school because I had a baby coming and I thought I needed the time alone with the baby.

It worked out badly for everyone. The baby always seemed to fall asleep right before it was time to go pick up DS from school. So when I would put him in the car, he would scream all the way there and back. I was never really able to rest, because there wasn't enough time between dropoff and pickup to do the few things I needed to do for myself (eat breakfast, take as shower, get a nap). Plus, DS was having such a rough time at school. And he felt a bit rejected from the family precisely when a new member was added.

If your son is being labeled the "problem child" by teachers or students, that label will haunt him for a very long time. I wanted DS to like school, but he hated it, and he started to get that label. So I pulled him out.

Once I pulled him out of school, things settled down considerably. He felt like we wanted him around, and he turned out to be such a big help with the baby, so sweet to him, that I wondered why I ever thought I needed him out of the house. And I finally got to take naps--DS was great about playing quietly with his sister and doing art projects while I napped with the baby.

There is not much "academic" work that needs to happen before age 6 or 7, anyway, so that hasn't been a burden at all. And the baby has loved going to the homeschool activities that we do once or twice a week (mostly playgroups). All the kids in our group are so loving with the babies.

Anyway, since there are similarities in our stories, I thought giving you my perspective might be helpful.


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

I've got to go and pick him up soon. I'm dreading seeing his teacher and also dreading any interchange with the parent of the girl he kicked (I have no idea who it was but I'm sure she would tell who kicked her). But, I'm looking forward to having my little boy home for the weekend and just cuddling him and protecting him from himself. He has a dancing class in the morning and he's always been great there (he's the only boy in a class of girls), but I am worried in case he misbehaves there tomorrow and hurts somebody. Do you think I should warn the teacher to keep an extra watch over him?


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## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Siar* 
I will certainly think about pulling him out for a while but I'm concerned that he would miss school and that it will be difficult for all of us when the new baby arrives. I also wouldn't know where to find other activities for him during the week. Like he should be interacting with small groups of children his own age, but where to find them (they're all in school!) Or should I try him in a different school with smaller numbers? There are I think two reception classes (which mix frequently) with about 18 children in each class.

Surely there are homeschool groups within reasonable proximity to you... Have you looked into it? They tend to have kids of all ages, many moms nursing babies, and they meet usually once a week, which is perfect frequency for 4 and 5 year olds.

At that age, children really don't *need* to play with other children as much as they need to be part of their own families. But they certainly tend to like playing with kids.

My kids (6 and 4) decide each week if they're not "too tired" to go to playgroup. If we've had any other activity (museum visit, or this week we went to see The Nutcracker) they generally have had enough "out of the house" time and prefer to be home.

The benefit of doing it this way is you will be there, observing, redirecting if necessary, and definitely finding out if there actually is a problem. But my experience is that those behavior charts can, for some children, actually cause the behavior problems. My son was so focussed on trying to keep his airplane in the air (similar system to your son's) that when he was unable to he was crushed. This baloney dominated his school experience so much that he was continually stressed.


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## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Siar* 
I've got to go and pick him up soon. I'm dreading seeing his teacher and also dreading any interchange with the parent of the girl he kicked (I have no idea who it was but I'm sure she would tell who kicked her). But, I'm looking forward to having my little boy home for the weekend and just cuddling him and *protecting him from himself*. He has a dancing class in the morning and he's always been great there (he's the only boy in a class of girls), but *I am worried in case he misbehaves there tomorrow and hurts somebody. Do you think I should warn the teacher to keep an extra watch over him*?

I'm worried that you've already labeled him! He's having a hard time at school, and you don't know why. He's reacting in a very, very common (though embarassing) way for his age! There's nothing wrong with your boy. But trust your instincts. This particular school environment is not working out for him, and he's trying to get you to see that in the only way he knows how.


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

I haven't read all the replies, but I'll just chime in with my advice...









Check into food intolerances. We realized in the summer Matty was/is allergic to gluten. With gluten in him he would just freak out and hit and was pretty aggressive and sometimes violent for no reason at all. But that was happening at home and in social situations.

We took the gluten out and he was a changed child. Still high strung and intense but at least we were able to get through to him to help him through his emotions. Going gluten free changed our family for sure.

If that isn't relavant for you, I would also be looking at taking him out of school. A full day of school for a 4 year old just seems like too much yk?

Matty (who is also 4.5) still has some lingering issues when dealing with frustration/anger etc at preschool and hitting, lashing out and what not and I was originally telling him "use your words" blah blah blah until he burst into tears that his words don't work (when I asked him why he hit his friend for example). Well duh, of course his words don't work with another 4 year old. Silly me for putting that pressure on him. I think too, asking a 4 year old to articulate why they are hitting someone or lashing out is way too much. if they could explain why and what was going on, chances are they would have more control over it yk?

Now I tell him that if he gets mad to go and ask for help if he is mad. Every time I drop him off at school, we go over what happens if he gets mad, or someone knocks over his blocks etc and that is really helping. It has taken a few weeks, but it is working and his teachers are totally on board with me.

Matty is in full French preschool (so same as you another language, although he is familiar with it) but he is only there MWF afternoons.

If this was my child that was reacting this way as your child is, and there was a marked difference in his behaviour when he was home from school, I would honestly be considering the fact that this isn't the school for him and pulling him out. That is just my opinion. Not every school is for every child yk?

You sound like such a wondeful caring mama. And your situation sounds so similar to mine in so many ways. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more.







)


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

OK - so I talked about the kicking incident with DS on the way home in the car and it seems to me like it may have been a personal space issue. It actually happened outside in the yard, not in the classroom. DS says that the girl poured paint onto her hand from an outside tap (it must have been water really I suppose, but they were obviously playing that it was paint) and was forcing him to drink it. She kept putting her hand in front of his mouth - and that's when he kicked her in the face (I got him to demonstrate what had happened when we got home, with me pretending to be DS and DS pretending to be the girl, and yes, it was getting kind of annoying having a hand thrust into my face - no excuse for kicking out though I know). I wonder if it was a reaction to her getting too close or to her persistence. DS still maintains that he doesn't like the children at school because they are always kicking, hitting, scratching and pinching him. Apparently after he kicked this girl, two boys (whose names often come up) smacked him across the face and made him cry (I guess they were defending the girl, but I wonder if they got reported?) DS shows no emotion talking about this incident. If I press him, he agrees that it wasn't a nice thing to do and that he wouldn't like it if someone did it to him, but he doesn't seem to understand that he shouldn't have done this and he couldn't understand that she might not want to play with him any more. He had to sit on his own over lunchtime at a table outside the classroom, but was allowed to look at some books. I expect he must have been feeling pretty upset.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm very confused -- where are the TEACHERS when all of this is happening? At this point I think you should ask some very pointed questions about the playground supervision at this school. Yes, you probably need to assure the school that you take his behavior seriously, but at the same time I think you need to give them his side and ask what they saw. If they saw none of this, then ask them how they are going to protect your child and others on the playground. One of the things that I liked about our preschool was that there was no where on the playground that wasn't under direct observation by the teachers during outside play time.

Your child's teacher should be able to tell you what happened between him and others, all the time. She should be able to give you her observations about what is going on and why. She should be able to give you his triggers. And she should be able to coach better choices from him. If she can't do these things, then I would seriously consider whether this is a healthy environment for him.

I'm guessing that you are not in the US, so some of what might be available to me isn't there for you. Is this a private school or the first step in public school? Do you have a choice about which school to send him? Here, there were 10 preschools without 10 blocks of my house and we were able to find one that had great supervision. But I'm guessing that this might not be the case for you.

If you chose to remove him from school, you should probably be able to replace some of the time with social activities so he does have a chance to learn not to hit back and how to navigate child social situations. Are there classes around you? I know its hard with a newborn, but not impossible, especially since most classes for that age are not parent participation.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Several thoughts that have probably been already said:

Where the heck are the TEACHERS? is there no playground supervision?

Sensory overload can do this to a child. Some children (like my son) freeze when they're on sensory overload. Others (like your ds it appears) lash out to protect themselves from perceived threats.

If pulling him out and starting next year isn't an option, can you strategize with him and the teachers as to what would make him feel more comfortable at school? Can they get an aide to shadow him and intervene when it's clear he's getting overwhelmed?

You might also want to look at the books: Sensational Kids or The Out of Sync Child.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Do you listen to the news a lot at home when he is around? You mentioned that he didn't start his aggressive behavior at school until a week ago so I am wondering if he may be hearing something at home a lot that is hard for him to cope with. When my dd was about this age she started paying attention to the news radio station we had listened to all day every day from for years and it was very very scary for her and she did start to act out in anger, though never to the point of violence. When her teacher pointed out that this may be a cause of some of that we stopped having the radio on and it helped a lot. There were some things they also needed to change at school, but just cutting out the radio helped tremendously with her at home behavior.


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## uptowngirl (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm thinking that he's having to deal with some mean kids---and he doesn't really know how. He's trying to fight fire with fire, but he's the one getting burned. Kids are sneaky. If they have older siblings who bully them, they learn very quickly how to fight nasty and not get caught. This may be what your ds is dealing with.

If he is otherwise good natured and this behavior just started---and it's only at school, then therein lies the problem, IMO. I would pull him out or ask to observe some in the classroom....or set up videotape. If they are going to hand out clouds--then they need to allow you to investigate and find out how and why your child is interacting this way.

My ds is a sweet little guy and at two years old was being bullied (actually poked in the bottom) by another TWO YEAR OLD at school!!! He was very traumatized and it upset him for months after I pulled him out. I too was pregnant, and wanted a break. The director had not blamed my ds--but totally blew it off and acted like "all kids do these silly things." I thought maybe I was overreacting because he's my first but I have since learned that she was wrong and making excuses for the lack of supervision in the program. the teachers didn't speak good English and he couldn't even communicate with them. it was a damaging few months for my child and I had a hard time getting to the truth. I wish I had pulled him out immediately.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Siar* 
If I press him, he agrees that it wasn't a nice thing to do and that he wouldn't like it if someone did it to him, but he doesn't seem to understand that he shouldn't have done this and he couldn't understand that she might not want to play with him any more.

well, it wasn't nice but he was *protecting himself*, what she did to him wasn't nice either. please please please take him out of that school. my dh was bullied and to this day has real issues with standing up for himself because of it.

he will hold it in and then erupt with a burst of anger because he says that it was the only way that he could get the bullies to leave him alone when he was little. seriously, i think your son is reacting in a completely normal manner and he is learning behaviours that are going to be with him for the rest of his life!!!

the teacher's are NOT protecting your son and he's doing the best he can to protect himself but he's little still.

i have a 4 yo and an almost 1yo at home and some times it is hard but most of the time their interactions are great and he is really helpful. i'm sorry if this comes across as harsh but frankly, living with someone that was the victim of bullying and labeled "aggresive" and a "problem" has shown me just how deeply those things can affect a person. i often wonder what my dh would have been like if he hadn't been "thrown to the wolves" (the words he uses to describe his childhood) at such a young age.

best of luck mama!


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## mamabeca (Oct 3, 2004)

My .02 (Gosh I love this forum for allowing us our opinions)!

1. You are in charge of your son. If you want to send him 3 days a week, that needs to be ok w/the school ('cause regardless, you have paid, right?). If you want him to be there half a day, that's to be ok with the school, too. If he doesn't want to go at all, perhaps you can negotiate a leaving fee with the school (if they have a policy that ties you in). These are YOUR decisions, mama, and its ok for you to make them.

2. MANY kids 3-5 are not ready for more than a part time school experience. For most people school doesn't even start until 6yo, so don't feel like he NEEDS this or that he's missing out on anything. Obviously the best he's missing out on is coping skills dealing with bullies and annoyance!

3. The classroom you describe does NOT sound super copacetic to helping young children stay calm or helping them be calm when emotions run high. I can't tell you how many times I've been pumped up emotionally (usually at dh lol!) and had to turn to look at the graceful spider plant, or the fish tank, to calm myself down before yelling or really letting out a lot of anger. What do they offer the children to help? [eg: dd's school has a 'peace table' where a child can go at any time and look at the pictures on the table, pick up a crystal, do a small hand maze etc.] One of the things that really struck me (and turned me on!) about the classroom/school I chose for my ds (3y 10mo) was how calm and lovely the class is. They have plants in the windows, very low furniture with quiet blue walls, and things are orderly. There isn't a ton of 'stuff' on the walls. They have bulletin boards outside the class where they display class activity 'stuff'. Right now there are turkeys with tail feathers the children all decorated, and on the other side of the door there is another board where they post up photos as well as projects. Anyway, it seems like if the classroom itself isn't a great fit, you need to be ok with that - he's a wonderful boy, and it's worth finding him the right 'place' where he feels at home and where he is a positive part of the environment. He IS a positive part of the environment, you just need to help him find a spot where that can shine.









Lastly, mama, big hugs. These decisions are not easy. The big issue of damaging your ds's confidence, or shifting his self esteem negatively, is important. It's your call. He's not likely to stop misbehaving at this age, it's HOW he deals with his frustration. Whenever he gets out of his comfort zone he's likely to 'react' somehow - if he's in an environment w/out enough supervision (ds's classroom has 15 kids and 3 full time teachers plus a student teacher 2 days a week), or one that has children who re/act physically, well, he's likely to mimic or even exacerbate that behavior because he _knows_ how it feels - it feels STRONG.

Best of wishes, and ps - my son's wonderful classroom, with all the teachers, the lovely walls and plants and all - well he still wakes crying that he doesn't want to go to school (he only goes 3 days a week too!). It's pretty normal. Even still - listening to him is your best recourse.


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## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

I haven't read all the responses- I apologize. It seems to me he is just not ready for school!! Is it at all possible to try taking him out?


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## lil_earthmomma (Dec 29, 2006)

I think I would react violently if someone was forcing me to drink something I didn't want to drink kwim? Protecting and defending yourself from someone else is often physical.








to you and your ds.

I agree that more supervision is needed, and that if your little guy is really not happy in this school situation, please consider another. I was bullied really badly as a child and my parents didn't do anything to find other solutions. I eventually begged to be homeschooled in junior high and it was a major turning point in my life. I went back for high school a more confident healthy person.

School is the only situation where you are forced to interact with people in a certain way, certain environment, certain behaviors are expected. No other part of life is like this. If you hate your job environment, you can find a different job. Don't like a group you are participating in and you can stop going. Not happy interacting with a certain person/people, you can choose not to.

Ok I'm rambling now.


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## angelandmisha (May 16, 2008)

Siar, I agree with the other posters- it doesn't sound like this is the right environment for your ds. I think that 18 students is too many. I taught 2nd grade and I think it's too many even for that age group- definitely too many kids for young ones. He seems overwhelmed with it and the environment, even you and your mom found it too much.

If it's possible, I'd bring him home with you and leave school for later, if at all. I think you'd all be much happier. If he has some friends there, you could arrange playtimes after school or on weekends. There are probably lots of other kids at home, it just may take a bit of time to find them. There may also be many programs for children that you could take him to in order to get out of the house and find other kids. It really sounds like he needs less time away from you. I think his responses are totally normal and not anything to worry about, I'd worry more about the school environment being too stimulating and the other kids being bullies. As a pp mentioned, that sort of experience can last a long time, unfortunately.

Good luck and I hope you'll keep us updated on how it goes.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I cant even imagine my 4yo in school







I would pull him out and try again next year he obviously isnt happy and the way things are going now you may find youself sued by a parent if your child hits theirs


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm picturing my ds in the situations you are describing and I my is breaking for him. I would pull him out right away. He doesn't sound ready and/or the school isn't right for him.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

The preschool DD goes to is 3 days a week, 4 hours each day. That is about DD's limit, at age just turned 4.

The teachers would be present if something aggressive happened. Free play time doesn't mean the teachers get a break, it means they are MORE involved. Free play time is the time to work on social skills, communication, and personal boundaries.

This school isn't working for him. Its too long, there's not enough supervision especially during the times when children need MORE, not less, supervision, and he definitely doesn't need another class (dance) on top of such a heavy schedule. I understand you need a break when the new baby comes. But he needs you and his family and maybe a good school where his perfectly normal developmental needs are addressed.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Siar* 
I am so desperate I am sitting here waiting for replies. thank you so much for replying.
He is at school 9am - 3.20pm five days a week. And yes, I've always felt it was too much for him. But we were told it was all or nothing. He doesn't complain about going to school, but does say frequently that he would prefer to be at home with me. He is in the reception class - which I guess is preschool? I had him at home with me for a 4-day stretch recently because school was closed, and by the fourth day it was like having my little boy back again. I have wondered about taking him out early for Christmas. We will be away a lot around Christmas and I always feel he does better when he spends time at home with me. I find with him going to school fulltime he has barely any time to play with his toys or just to be with us without being rushed to get dressed in the morning or to hurry with his dinner and get ready for bed.
He certainly started showing aggressive tendencies at home within a couple of weeks of attending school fulltime, but he's only started showing them at school this week. I don't feel he's exactly happy there - but I think he would miss it if he weren't going. The nursery class he was in last school year (January - June)
is just an adjacent classroom, so it isn't a new school for him.
He does know about the baby and is very affectionate towards it, wanting to cuddle and kiss my tummy and talk to the baby. But he doesn't go on about it much unless I bring it up. I have such a little bump I'm not changing dramatically yet. And he will say things like "is the baby coming out today Mummy?" He seems to be looking forward to it. I just hope we can sort out his behaviour now as I'm worried things will get more problematic when the new baby arrives.


The bolding above is mine.

I think you have your answer. He's acting out because he is overwhelmed and does not have the ability (no 4 year old does) to recognize and explain it to you.

I think it's more about all day at school with a large group of kids than about the new pregnancy. But it certainly does not help the situation.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I would try to clarify for certain which reports are coming from children who are "telling" and which reports are coming from teachers who have directly observed his behaviors. If teacher's are observing the aggressive behaviors, then they should be able to give you information about what seems to trigger him, and what they are doing to eliminate those triggers. They should be able to give you information that helps determine appropriate interventions.

If they are disciplining him based solely on what other kids are reporting, then something is very wrong with the structure and supervision levels in his classroom.

If you are determined to make this class situation work out for him, then someone needs to spend some time observing. Is there a way for you to observe? A 2-way mirror, or video taping, or something like that? If not, can you ask a the director/administrator to observe him? As a last resort, can you set up a way for a trusted friend to observe? He should be observed in at least two settings or activities, and during the transition between those settings. Its very important that the transition time be observed.

As a counselor, and I spend a good chunk of my time observing aggressive children in class and on the playground in order to try to figure out what is going on with them. Most of the time with younger children, they seem to "loose their cool" and lash out when there is too much stimulation and not enough structure.

As a mom, I would probably make the decision that this setting is not working for him and I would pull him out, give him a few weeks off. If you are planning to send him to kindergarten next year, then I would investigate some other options for preschool so that he has an opportunity this year to learn how to behave well at school -- but most definately in a setting that he can handle!


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## emamum (Dec 4, 2008)

Siar, where do you live? My advice is only useful if you live in the uk tbh cos i dont know how school 'works' in the us.


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## luv2bamommy2 (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm not an expert either, but my mom recently bought a book for me titled "Have A New Child by Friday" by Dr. Kevin Leman and he writes "...what children need is not labels but *one-on-one attention* from Mom and Dad. If the child doesn't receive the attention they need, *they'll act out* [find ways to get that attention], whether in *positive or negative ways*!

Could your son be feeling "unwanted/unloved"? I only ask because my son started acting up as my pregnancy progressed. The closer we got to the actual birth the more he acted up and out. Then my mom asked me this same question, I started giving my son extra love and attention and his behavior improved.

Now when he's rough with his sister, cousins, or the friends in his playgroup I just give him more personal attention and love, and that elimenates the bad behavior. That could be all that is wrong. I mean, ask yourself, "If you've always been number 1 child and then you find out there's going to be a sister/brother and your mom sticks you in an all day school, what do you think it is telling your child?"

Your son is probably thinking rejection! And his behavior goes wacko!

It's a thought.

The book can be bought from www.amazon.com.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

OK so you're in Wales, right? So he'll be in a public school and there will be maybe 2/3 teachers supervising the whole playground for almost a hundred kids, I've seen this sort of thing in the playgrounds here too, the kids that annoy/hurt/bully first seem to get away with whatever they are doing and the child that reacts and is 'reported' gets the label, I'd take him out and see if you can homeschool for a while. My dd didn't go to kg for the first year, what with a new baby, bilingual education, traumatic time around bb's birth, it didn't seem reasonable to send her - and then she waltzed into the second year of pre-school and has loved things ever since, it may be prudent just to give him some extra time, school is not obligatory and I'm sure there'll be some homeschooling things around where you are I'd do some research and in the meantime speak to the 'head' and see what he also suggests if you're not pleased with the response then take him out. Good luck - it's not easy.

Just a little story (actually it's turned into quite a long one







)I have from my ds was that he was in school and got in to trouble for hitting a little girl, what the teacher saw was that he went up to this girl in the playground and slapped her across the face - what actually happened, earlier in the day the little girl had hurt him by pulling his fingers back because she wanted a toy he was playing with, ds said nothing - because boys are encouraged not to say anything and 'be brave' - he let it all build up and half an hour later hit her, he got into trouble and didn't have the language skills to explain, the next day the little girl pointed out the bad boy to her mother, I turned and said yes but you pulled his fingers back and took the toy he was playing with, it wasn't correct that he hit you but taking the toy and hurting him wasn't right either, and she said 'yes' I also explained that to the teacher (who is great by the way) you must explain that things are happening to your child in school and he doesn't have the skills and although yes he's being violent he's protecting himself by the only means he knows how at the moment, anyway I think you need to try and take things in hand and see what happens and if you decide to take him out of school, don't worry having a little helper with the baby is marvellous, they can go and get a bottle of water, pick up the phone, get the nappies, play, give lots of love and gain so much just by being at home and getting the time that he needs with you and the new baby. Good luck, you're a loving and caring mother who's doing the best by her son.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Slightly OT, but relevant. I just have to chime in on all the "its too long for 4 year olds", "4 year olds aren't ready for school" and such. Its true, not ALL 4 YOs are ready for school. But it is certainly not true that its too much for everyone. Many, many children do just fine in full-day preschool and many children do well in full-day Jr. K and even regular K at 4. So please don't generalize!

That said, I do think perhaps this 4 YO in this school is not a good mix.


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

I'm assuming you are in the UK to have a welsh speaking school.

How old is your little one? When is his Birthday?

My little girl was 4 in August and where we are that meant starting . reception full time in September. However we have worked with the school and arranged for her to do mornings only. It's worked really well for her.

Granted I have to be a lot more aware of what is happening. eg letters are usually put in their bags in the afternoon but it is worth it.

If you are thinking of pulling him out then I would contact education otherwise. They were able to put me in touch with home school groups in my area. Obviously we decided not to go that route though.


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angela&avery* 
It sounds to me that he is completely overwhelmed with going to school every day.
How long is he there?
How long is his day?
Is this Kindergarten, Preschool or daycare?
If the behavior started when he started full time then I would guess thats a big part of the problem. Is it a new school or the same one that he went to part time?

second, does he know about the baby? Your growing stomach and immenent change mayb be causing him stress too.

YES!! to all of this.

your little boy is NOT adjusting well to school and the new baby. do what you can to help him. extra mommy-time, talks, half days at school, whatever.


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

thanks for your kind words and advice everyone. sorry I don't have energy to write back right now. we have all been ill since the weekend (sickness, colds and either bronchitis or really bad wheezy chest infections) and I think we're just getting ready to begin to face the world again. so DS has been off school, though without enough attention. hoping to meet with his teacher and the headmaster by the end of the week and sort something out. DH isn't convinced about my taking him out of school for the rest of term (only 1 week early) and thinks I'm doing it for my own convenience! (certainly not considering the amount of stuff I need to do to get ready for Christmas and just to tidy the house in preparation for the new little one). Will hopefully find the time soon to read all your responses properly and write more soon.
Thanks again everyone.


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## J. Jones (Jan 28, 2007)

A close friend of my DS is 3.5 and in his playschool. This little boy I've known since he was a baby, and while he often has impulse issues - when I saw he was hitting and kicking in school it really surprised me (and his mom).

We noticed that it seemed like he lashed out whenever he was feeling left out of an activity or group. He'd walk up to a bunch of kids who were playing with blocks, hover a little bit, then smack or kick the toys (or kids!). We think he didn't know how to join the group. Maybe he wanted to. Maybe he was looking for something else to do. But overall it seemed like he was a little lost.

His mom started talking and practicing with him at home about how to ask for attention from the teachers. He hadn't really "connected" with any of them. So I think at school he was feeling lonely and lost (overwhelmed) and expressed his frustration with violence. He was used to a lot of one on one at home. Anyways, his mom started introducing him to the teachers every day and reminding him that he could "Ask Ms. Kelly if you need something to do." She'd have him repeat it and also play act it at home - "what do you say if you can't find anyone to play with? - Can you say, 'Ms. Kelly, I feel frustrated'? Pretend I'm a kid and I don't want to share my truck with you, are you going to get mad? What can you do when you get mad?"

Best of luck to you and your little ones.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

just checking for an update, hope you are well!


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

*The harder adults make it for a child to be good, the harder it is for a child to be good.*

I tend to think that these problems lie with the teacher/school. The reason I think this is because there is a lot of pressure is put on children to act a certain way that adults think they should act. If the child is constantly berated for doing this or that infraction, of course they are going to get frustrated and act contrary to the rules. It makes the situation so much worse when teachers make those stupid little charts for all the world to see the child's "failings".

It sounds as if your little guy is having a frustrating time, especially if he's having bad dreams. If the teacher says she hasn't noticed a problem, there *IS* a problem, but you see it's not *HER* problem so that's why she is telling you there is no problem, it's your child's problem that he's dealing with, even though she is directly involved.

I don't have any advice to give you, I just feel bad for you and for your child....it's a very frustrating and heart breaking situation.

I read your story and I really do hate organized schooling.


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## Siar (Mar 10, 2008)

thanks for your messages - I'm afraid I'm just not dealing with it right now. We were all ill last week and I continue to be so (my ribs/lungs are absolute agony most of the time, but especially when I cough or sneeze). DS is back in school for the last week before Christmas and is doing well so far - no reported problems yet anyhow. If I were better I would have been in to talk to the teachers by now. Hopefully I can address this in the new year.


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