# Girl Scout Daisies, "Respect Authority" and the Magenta Petal



## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Mods, please move this where you think it belongs.

I'm a Girl Scout leader. I have a new group of Daisies, and a couple of Brownies. I am also an unapologetic scofflaw and once-upon-a-time a hippy anarchist.

We are approaching the petals this spring/summer, and I'm struggling with parts of this one. I know that "authority" is sometimes mentioned as being someone who knows a lot, like an expert (from Daisy Flower Garden Journey, "Clover" is said to be the authority on bees.) But in Gerri's story (Magenta petal, "Respect Authority"), the focus is on Following the Rules.

Now, I have girls in the troop I adore, from families I respect that would be happy to focus on Following the Rules as the main point of the petal and the line from the GS Law. That would be so simple. These girls are K-2, and if you bring nuanced gray into their world of black &white, I'm not sure if they'd get the point. And if you were to ask such a question as, "Does 'respecting authority' always mean 'Following the Rules'?" you would get answers like "I like dragons better than horses" or "I got a new My Little Pony."

But here's what I'm thinking: great things have happened in history when the Rules weren't followed. Women's suffrage, the civil rights movement in general, the Magna Carta, the American Revolution, for heaven's sake! We honor those who stood up against the injustices of the Man and won a victory for the "little guy".

But how do you introduce this in brief? Or do you? I'm thinking of covering "Courageous and Strong" just before, to put the focus on some people who made a stand, who didn't follow the rules. Though I hate to throw so much gray on their world, but just following the "policeman, school principal" path of who authority is doesn't sit well with me. I do respect those people in such positions, but respect to me doesn't ever mean Absolute Adherence. (The old hippy just won't die!)

But is it too much at this age? Should I just cover this with my own 2 girls (both scouts in my troop) and ditch mentioning it to the troop? Or do I bring some nuance into this? If I do, how???

You don't have to be a girl scout leader, mom or volunteer to respond here, but please, don't let the thread stray to criticism of Girl Scouting as a whole. We are loving our time with them! Let's keep it on the topic of teaching respect for authority, without teaching that "respect" means never thoughtfully disobeying.

ETA: I do belong to a Girl Scout Moms group on a parenting site that shall remain nameless, because I wouldn't in a million years belong to that, if it weren't for the 700 moms belonging to that one group. It has been enormously helpful, but the topic is a bit more.... or less..... mainstream... and I wanted to get a feel for it here, amongst more like-minded folk.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that is too complicated and very unnecessary for kids that age. They are years away from being in a position to perform acts of civil disobedience. Attempting these acts at school or home based on misunderstanding your point will get them nothing but trouble unless they are very lucky.

They will learn about that stuff in time and there is no need to bore them with a lesson their parents may find objectionable anyways at this age. The teen years are a great time for these lessons and as a leader you should be able to move up with your troop and eventually teach lessons like that.


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## eabbmom (Oct 22, 2011)

I think that the Girl Scouts does a good job of fostering citizenship qualities. One citizenship quality is standing up for yourself or others even if that means breaking rules. You can talk about rules that are important to follow for safety or the respect of others. You can also talk about how someone like Rosa Parks broke the rules and did something great.


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

We just did this one and we met with our school principal. It was actually a lot more in depth than we thought it would be because one of the girls asked if she ever had to follow a school rule that she didn't want to follow. Her answer was that yes, there was a student that she really loved and didnt' want to get into trouble, but he brought drugs to school so she had to follow the rules and call the police because it was dangerous for all of her students if she didn't and that sometimes to do the right thing isn't fun. It really hit home to some of the girls.

Knowing my troop (1st going into 2nd) Rosa Parks is probably a bit too far out there for them to understand. At this age most rules are to keep them safe ( or just to make life easier for grown ups  ) and those are good rules to follow. I think our principal did a good job talking to the girls about how sometimes it's hard to do though.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

We just wrapped up our "year" for my Daisy troop. That would've been a really REALLY difficult spin on "authority" for most of them...if not all of them. When I want to cover something they're not quite ready for, I remind myself that Girl Scouts isn't just THIS year, I have a lot of time with them and we'll get there eventually.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> I think that is too complicated and very unnecessary for kids that age. They are years away from being in a position to perform acts of civil disobedience. Attempting these acts at school or home based on misunderstanding your point will get them nothing but trouble unless they are very lucky.
> 
> They will learn about that stuff in time and there is no need to bore them with a lesson their parents may find objectionable anyways at this age. The teen years are a great time for these lessons and as a leader you should be able to move up with your troop and eventually teach lessons like that.


I would never plan on encouraging them to "perform acts of civil disobedience". In my house, if the girls think a rule is unfair, they talk to me about changing the rules and why. This is more what I think about. Is it ever OK to talk to someone or do something if they think a rule is unfair? I know my ramble gave the impression that I want the girls to Rise Up, but that's just the Old Scofflaw ranting.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eabbmom*
> 
> I think that the Girl Scouts does a good job of fostering citizenship qualities. One citizenship quality is standing up for yourself or others even if that means breaking rules. You can talk about rules that are important to follow for safety or the respect of others. You can also talk about how someone like Rosa Parks broke the rules and did something great.


This is more on the lines of what I am thinking.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

At that age talking about unfair rules with parents isn't often acceptable the way it is with many families here. I wouldn't go there unless you are very clear about how to go about it and very sure you weren't setting your troop members up for punishment. Standing up against discrimination is important and linking that lesson with talking to parents about unfair rules dilutes that message.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Not "talk to your parents about unfair rules because that's what we do in my house and I'm going to teach you that." More like, "What would you do if you thought a rule was unfair? How could you 'respect authority' and address the unfairness at the same time?" (Not necessarily the exact words I would choose.)

And lest anybody "worry", I have 3 other leaders in my troop. I wouldn't be taking us in any direction unilaterally.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Feel free to disregard my two cents, because I don't have a child this age, and when I was there myself - I was an extremely weird kid.







Super serious, highly socially & environmentally conscious. Time doesn't change much, and so I find myself completely identifying with your inner hippie scofflaw







- I would be uncomfortable, too.

First, I think it's imperative for kids to understand that rules are, generally, created by authorities with the best interests of the group in mind (i.e., police officers have rules to keep us safer, principals have rules to make things run smoothly). Like the drugs at school example, I suppose. So, not magically written in stone since the beginning of time, but something humans put thought into, to accomplish a goal. Maybe some examples or questions around that (not requiring really deep reasoning, softballs that might be kinda self-evident).

Then, I think, it's important to point out that even with good intentions, people aren't perfect - just like kids make mistakes, adults can make mistakes, too. Adults are always learning. So if you disagree with a rule, because you find it unfair, what can you do? You want to be respectful of authority, so how do you address your concerns? (and you can keep this more geared toward outside authorities in your discussion, if you want, to keep from offending parents, I guess).

Then I'd lead the conversation to whatever options you would envision for these kids - if not outright disobedience, should they talk to a teacher? The principal? Tell their parents they think a school rule is unfair and why (so maybe parents can also help them understand it, or help them be heard)? Whatever recourse you think would be appropriate.

If you want to take it to another level, and say, "sometimes when things in the world are REALLY wrong, and this process doesn't work, people engage in civil disobedience" (a la Rosa) - but only you could know if the kids in your group are ready to understand this progression (talk it out first, then refuse to comply) without running home, deciding all the parent's rules are awful, and going on strike.









eta: of course, all of this implies that authorities are basically good guys who are trying to do the right thing - while that might not be my personal world view (lol), I think it's a safe starting point with young kids.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> eta: of course, all of this implies that authorities are basically good guys who are trying to do the right thing - while that might not be my personal world view (lol), I think it's a safe starting point with young kids.


ha! You know how tempting it is to drag the topic that far? I can get jittery just thinking about the abuse of power, yet I am careful about how I convey this, even to my own daughters. No, I dare not take it in that direction! Let's begin with authority as benevolent. Yikes!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> Feel free to disregard my two cents, because I don't have a child this age, and when I was there myself - I was an extremely weird kid.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily have an inner hippie scofflaw







, nonetheless I LOVE THIS. I think this is totally accessible for that age range, and will probably weave it into existing convos I have with my 7 ad 9 yo.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

The Respecting Authority petal is just the Respecting Authority petal. There are a ton of other badges that represent standing up for someone, being brave, changing the world, etc. I don't think there's any need to muddy the waters with 5 - 7 year olds. Having presented a few of these more "ideal" oriented programs for patches, they really REALLY do not follow that kind of thinking, for the most part.

While I agree that sometimes authority and rules are wrong, that's another meeting.

You can do a separate meeting on people who changed the world by challenging the rules. I think it would be MUCH more powerful and easy to follow as it's own topic.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

So, how did you define "respect"? The word is used 3 times in the GS Law, and covered by 2 petals. So, what kinds of ideas did you discuss to define the word? "Respect" as in "following rules" is entirely different than "respect yourself and others", and it is also for the basis for following the rules (understanding that rules help keep people safe, that people in positions of authority are benevolent, that sometimes we might not understand the Why of a rule yet but still need to follow it).

It is a difficult word, admittedly. Not easy to wrap your head around a definition, even for adults.

Did you discuss the reasons for rules? I ask that because *one* of the reasons we have rules is to make things fair. Some rules have changed because they were unfair, and those rules that I'm thinking of that are appropriate for this age to understand are: school rules that girls had to wear dresses to school (my sister, only 4 years older than I, started school being able to only wear dresses) and rules that exclude all animals from stores, making those who rely on guide dogs unable to enter the stores. In fact, all rules and regulations about handicap access are perfectly appropriate here. So, I am far from needing to discuss the civil disobedience and revolution that fire me up personally, but certainly girls are mature enough to have a basic understanding of this aspect of fairness as it applies to rules. Mine are.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Oh jeez. I'm with you, SweetSilver. I have some pretty distinct moral qualms about teaching kids blind adherence to rules--especially girls, since women as a whole tend to be too compliant for their own good anyway. Besides all the long-term ill effects from children receiving these messages all their lives, I really think it makes them more susceptible to abuse by "authority figures" in the short term.

But it's true that if you tell them anything else, they're just going to get punished.... You could argue that all parts of society teach blind adherence to rules, so they're going to get this message regardless of what you do, so it won't matter if you teach it to them, but I still wouldn't be comfortable with it. (I mean, if you substitute anything else that I ethically disagree with but everybody's doing it, I wouldn't be okay with doing that either.)

Maybe there are some kind of storybooks about rules that you could read to them?


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Cylla, I cross posted with you. Yes, what makes it difficult especially is that these are other people's children, and while it's fine for me to raise my girls with ideas I hold dear, I understand that some ideas can be controversial.*

What I don't agree with is that any mention that rules can be unfair is inappropriate for this age, and will incite children to go home or go to school and perform acts of civil disobedience. Especially since rules discussed are removed from mention of home life.

But even at home, (and I would not bring home-rules into this, but indulge me here) I have rules that other houses don't follow. Other families have rules that we don't follow. Kids old enough to visit friends' houses are old enough to understand that different families have different rules, why aren't they old enough to understand that sometimes rules don't just seem fair to one person, but they are seen unfair by many people, and they work to change in ways that still Respect Authority.

Again, vocabulary, wording, possibly more difficult ideas than I would ever present to this age group, but more like this "Rules don't always seem fair, but most of the time it's because we need to understand why the rule is there. But what are ways you can talk (to a school principal, store manager) about how a rule seems unfair to you, and still Respect Authority? They can explain why they think the rule is fair-- or maybe if a lot of kids and families think the rule is unfair, it can change." Or something like that. A footnote at the end of the police station visit....

(I'm a more than a little disturbed that it's OK to take kids to police stations to show kids what happens to grown ups when they break the rules (arrest'em, lock'em up) but it's not OK to even mention that they can ask about rules being unfair-- something every kids thinks about at this age, whether the rule is truly fair or not! OK, enough of the rant. I'm really good at keeping my rebellious thoughts to myself in front of kids--honestly!)

ETA this footnote: we had a 4-H presentation about veterans, and had stories of Prisoners of War and "bad guys" and I cringed. My kids are definitely exposed to ideas that I dislike.... I understand how it grates.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Oh jeez. I'm with you, SweetSilver. I have some pretty distinct moral qualms about teaching kids blind adherence to rules--especially girls, since women as a whole tend to be too compliant for their own good anyway. *Besides all the long-term ill effects from children receiving these messages all their lives, I really think it makes them more susceptible to abuse by "authority figures" in the short term.*










this was in my mind, also...


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I think that just trying to get kids that age to understand what "respect" means is biting off a big chunk. It's such an abstract concept. I think I would focus on that concept.

Then broaden it to treating ourselves with respect and treating others with respect. Again, very abstract. To me, its about deeply knowing that we all are worthy of dignity and that we all deserve to be safe, valued, understood. I think that respecting ourselves and respecting others is very closely related -- it's about understanding what it means to be human and how special that is, that we are all very special. But that we aren't any *more* special than any one else.

Respecting authority (to me) can only come after that. Ideally, authority is an organized way to make sure that everyone is safe, valued, and understood. You could use the GS troop as an example. You have rules in the troop, and the purpose of those rules is to make sure that each girl is treated with respect. For example, rules about when girls can talk are to ensure than when it is a specific girl's turn to talk, she can be heard. And one of the ways we treat people with respect is to really hear them. Or if your troop has rules about healthy snacks, the reason you do that is because it is part of treating our bodies with respect.

To me, respecting authority comes last -- it is the assumption that rules really are there for a reason, even when we don't know the reason. Respecting authority is about knowing that our perspective is sometimes incomplete, or that we might be wrong. I think that its good for children to ask *why* a rule is in place, and that the authorities in their lives should be able to explain it to them. I think doing so gives children a more firm base for making moral decisions as they grow up. Where the respect comes in to that questioning is in the assumption that there must be a good reason, but that they just don't know the reason and they would to understand. It isn't respectful to assume that things we don't understand are stupid and pointless.

that's where I would stop with other people's young children, even though the next logical step is admitting that sometimes rules/authority are stupid and pointless. Hopefully, the kids in your troop don't have a lot of that kind of authority in their lives right now. But if you focus on authority as the way of making the individuals safe and treating ourselves and others with respect, it seems a like firmer foundation than just to blindly give deference to people based on their positions.

(I think it is just as important that people in positions of authority treat those under them with respect, and that doing so is the only way to have a healthy system).


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I think you're trying to make the patch about something it's not. I don't think anyone said you'd be inciting riots, just that your message would be largely lost and they wouldn't learn much.

We covered the patch in a pretty basic way - when your leader is speaking, be quiet. When we go on a field trip and someone has put their time into preparing a program, pay attention.

What you're saying is...respect authority, except sometimes don't. And that's another lesson. Changing rules when they are unfair us a valid lesson for all children to learn but this patch is pretty specifically about something else.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

First, I'm not making it anything, yet.  I'm talking and discussing about ideas and personal dilemmas swirling around being one to teach girls about respecting authority. I'm not talking to my girls, others' girls, I'm not even talking to the other leaders about this because this thread is an attempt to get my thoughts straight. (ETA: for example, I realize now what aspect of this issue is the most important for me-- understanding that asking about a rule because you are feeling it's unfair isn't automatically disrespectful, and to be careful to make the point removed from home life.)

That's why I asked you how you define "respect" with your girls. "Respect yourself and others" doesn't mean "do what others tell you", so "respect" as in "do what others tell you" is a new and different layer when it concerns authority. Above all at this age, it means "do as you are told", which a is unique application for the definition.

What I'm suggesting is a footnote, not a main point. Children can be quite sensitive about rules being fair, or feeling unfair, at least that is my experience. Well, sometimes they seem unfair, and how do you find out if they are or aren't? (ETA: Or if a rule is being applied fairly?) Is asking disrespectful? I think it is not confusing-- in fact, I would personally feel that it is quite clarifying to know that my feelings that something is not fair is OK and not DIS respectful. I don't always have to feel like "I feel it's unfair and I've been told that I just don't understand something. Now I feel bad because I guess I was being disrespectful." Well (my words, not a Leader's choice of words) sometimes it IS unfair! I think it would be an easy and important footnote to mention that you can ask a trusted adult about something being fair, and that is not disrespectful. Nor confusing. I know my girls would have a rudimentary understanding of the basic point.

It's clear that many people would feel uncomfortable, and as a different point, I don't really understand why it's so difficult and inconsistent with the petal. That's my perspective as a parent.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I had a really long response and it was just too wandering. I can not seem to condense it.

Basically we asked who they think of as authorities, what is respect, and how do you show respect. They said (predictably) parents, teachers, leaders, police officers, librarians, etc. Respect is listening when they are talking, waiting your turn, following rules, cleaning up after yourself. You show respect by...oh yeah, all that stuff we just said. We asked why it was important to be respectful and how being respectful to others helps them. They had some good answers. It's important because that's how things run smoothly, everyone gets a turn, things are fair, and so on. It was pretty basic.

We did not say or imply that all authority as absolute or go into anything really outside of a very basic discussion, which we let them lead as much as possible. Some of our girls are still five, you know?

Our field trip was to a karate studio (karate must be the number one field trip for Girl Scouts) because one of the moms knows the instructor and he has a really good, age-appropriate talk for his demo classes about respecting authority and when it's important, how it benefits you, and so on.

We have done other lessons on people who changed the rules and stood up for what they believed in because we need to celebrate those people and we still have rules (laws) that need to change.

We just get SO little time with them and some of them are SO young and we really do try to let them lead the discussion as much as we can, muddying things up with what really feels to me like a whole other issue would just mean they wouldn't take much of anything away from the lesson at all.

My friend's troop did respecting authority in the beginning, using meetings as an example: bring your materials, show up on time, be attentive, participate, follow the rules, wait your turn to talk, etc because the people in charge spend a lot of time organizing your meetings and your parents go to a lot of effort to get you there. We all have a better meeting if we all follow the rules, etc. I thought that was pretty smart.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

I like your examples, and thank you for clarifying. I would still have to disagree that it is "muddying" the waters, as I would understand the term, but with my girls at home, fairness in everything is of paramount importance (and oooohhhhhh....I am not exaggerating!) So, I know it is on their minds.

Within the structure we create (using the example of meetings), we have appropriate avenues for people to address problems or questions, and I know girls think of it. They might think the way we do kapers is unfair. Well, do they ask? Or do they have nagging thoughts of "that's not very reassuring and I think I can think of a better way." Well, they could. We are supposed to be girl-led, but is questioning that the way we do kapers has turned out to be unfair, and perhaps a better way could be thought of, is that disrespectful? Might that potentially keep the girls from speaking up and creating a new structure that might work more?

I persist in this, because I know it is one of those unspoken things that kids tend to think about, but might be afraid (of being disrespectful) to bother asking. I still am not convinced that the subject would be "muddied" to mention that the structures we create (to keep peace, to make room for everybody, to keep people safe) also make specific avenues for people who might have better ideas, or listen to grievances. It might be another layer, but... not quite as distinct to me as the difference between respect others and respecting authority specifically.

For me (perhaps because of my background, because of my experience with my girls' persistent sense of justice and injustice and because of my experience with what the kids I know can and can't understand) if presented simply and uneventfully, this idea can be understood by kids even younger than Daisies, and I think not only can it be presented, but that it can be a good thing-- and possibly a relief to some kids, if they are anything like my own.

And I like the examples of meetings and karate dojo to discuss authority, rather than a trip to the police station that some troops do.


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## pickle18 (Jan 27, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SweetSilver*
> 
> Within the structure we create (using the example of meetings), we have appropriate avenues for people to address problems or questions, and I know girls think of it. They might think the way we do kapers is unfair. Well, do they ask? Or do they have nagging thoughts of "that's not very reassuring and I think I can think of a better way." Well, they could. *We are supposed to be girl-led, but is questioning that the way we do kapers has turned out to be unfair, and perhaps a better way could be thought of, is that disrespectful?* Might that potentially keep the girls from speaking up and creating a new structure that might work more?
> 
> I persist in this, because I know it is one of those unspoken things that kids tend to think about, but might be afraid (of being disrespectful) to bother asking. I still am not convinced that the subject would be "muddied" to mention that *the structures we create (to keep peace, to make room for everybody, to keep people safe) also make specific avenues for people who might have better ideas, or listen to grievances.* It might be another layer, but... not quite as distinct to me as the difference between respect others and respecting authority specifically.










I agree. This is kind of what I was getting at, talking about how kids need to know that the rules don't just always come from on high, and are etched in stone, and they need to just "respect" that (even if that's how home life goes for some of them...). I think there is a missed opportunity there, for them to feel comfortable, empowered, and more connected - and, using GS as an example, to get more out of the experience.

Otherwise, even if they know that the authorities are supposed to be benevolent, and even if they know x rule is for y reason...after a while it's kind of just like listening to the adults in a Peanuts movie, smile and nod. Kids are obsessed with fairness, even at a young age (talk to my two year old about that







). They will hold every rule up against their very specific situation to see if it seems fair or right, and if the blanket answer is, it's right because it's the rule and you need to respect authority and their rule-making abilities...well, that is going to go over like a lead balloon.

I guess what I'm saying is, I think it will greatly *enhance* the quality of your message, to add a bit about redress - not detract from it. It will make it real, validating, and participatory. Further, I think knowing they have a voice makes their respect for authority more genuine - it's earned, because they feel like the respect is a two-way street.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pickle18*
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is, I think it will greatly *enhance* the quality of your message, to add a bit about redress - not detract from it. It will make it real, validating, and participatory. Further, I think knowing they have a voice makes their respect for authority more genuine - it's earned, because they feel like the respect is a two-way street.


This is how I tend to feel. I think that the subject really isn't even complete without an "honorable mention" of the avenues of redress we have set up.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Quote:


> 'what aspect of this issue is the most important for me-- understanding that asking about a rule because you are feeling it's unfair isn't automatically disrespectful, and to be careful to make the point removed from home life.'


This is interesting! You've really got me thinking. Abuse of authority is at the heart of your concern, right? Maybe side-step that issue and focus neutral examples, that are entirely outside of home and school.

The girls could learn about calling 911. If they call 911 they will be asked to give their name, their address, to describe the problem, maybe given specific directions.

They could learn about airport traffic controllers. What would happen if airports didn't have traffic controllers?

They could learn about music conductors. I read about this one elsewhere. It could be fun to give them a bunch of musical instruments and have them go at it. Then bring them together and demonstrate what they sound like when they're following the conductor's instructions. Yes, conductors can be manipulative assholes. But that's not relevant to the lesson, right?

I think your concern is legitimate, and I share your scofflaw urge, but I agree with others, this just isn't the right circumstance for that lesson.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *journeymom*
> 
> They could learn about music conductors. I read about this one elsewhere. It could be fun to give them a bunch of musical instruments and have them go at it. Then bring them together and demonstrate what they sound like when they're following the conductor's instructions.


I really, really like this example!


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