# The talking diaper trick



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Too lazy to dig out the old thread, but someone (sorry too lazy to figure out who) suggested using a diaper as a puppet and being silly as a fail-proof way to get it on to Simon. Well... not here.







Maybe I'm not doing it as it should be done!!! I've tried it twice. First time, Simon ran and grabbed some books to read to the diaper (hey, this diaper talks! would probably love to hear a good story!). The second time around was perhaps more successful. This time he tried to put his baby doll into the diaper. It didn't work for us, but we did have a good time.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Hi Dal!
It was me who suggested the talking diaper! Your Simon is just too cute! Thanks for sharing this story!! I guess you tried to make the diaper look at the doll in disgust and say: "Hey! I do not want to hug _YOU_ (the doll) ! I want to hug my darling Simon!! I don't know, this (and modified versions of this) has been my way through toddlerhood (useful for putting clothes on as well... ) so if I were in your shoes I would definetely have another go at it... The key is to find a version of the story that really works for your family...


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't think I tried that. Will do next time around.







I'm curious to see what happens if/when dh tries this approach.

I can imagine Simon in his total glory with an audience of all of his clothes, diapers, and socks.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

how is it GD to coax (trick?) children into wearing diapers if they don't want to wear them?


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

It didn't work for us either. I had it on my head, talking to a bunny puppet, on her head. She loved it on my head and kept putting it back there


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

how is it GD to coax (trick?) children into wearing diapers if they don't want to wear them?
Have you never coaxed your child into doing something? Ever? What is redirection if not "tricking"? Slippery slope, this argument.

In any case, what is the alternative? My DD is not ready to potty-learn yet. I know from experience that I cannot leave her in a soiled diaper (the sight of the rash that came from this would make you gasp). We have wall-to-wall carpeting, so...yep, she's going to wear a diaper, and if I can get it on her by being silly and making her laugh instead of having her cry and scream, well, it looks like a pretty good method to me.

We have been using the talking diaper trick with success, and I heartily thank gaialice!! The key for us has been to have the diaper plead to be put on in a very silly way: "Plllleeeease can I be your diaper? I'll be the best diaper! I want to be your diaper so much! DD, oh please, oh please, can I be your diaper??" She enjoys saying yes to this because it gives her back some of her power, I think. Very Playful Parenting, and a great idea IMO.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

My son didn't fall for the talking diaper either. Maybe I didn't sell it hard enough, because deep down I think it's really stupid (from an adult standpoint, I think it's a great idea if it works for you kid). Things that do work for us - standing changes in front of the TV (Fuzzi Bunz are great for standing changes), being allowed to change a favorite stuffed animal first, and giving him time to lie down on his own (only works if he's in the mood).


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## shell024 (May 21, 2005)

ds is only 4.5mo but he moves so much I can't get the diaper back on. We're ec'ing so hopefully we can gradually move away from the struggle! BUT, I will be trying the talking diaper! Lately I've just been making rediculous faces at him to distract him and then try to QUICKLY and SLICKLY get that diaper on! Hoping to move to crotchless pants soon!


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

In any case, what is the alternative? My DD is not ready to potty-learn yet. I know from experience that I cannot leave her in a soiled diaper (the sight of the rash that came from this would make you gasp). We have wall-to-wall carpeting,
So it is the wall to wll carpeting that is "forcing" you to do this.

Quote:

In any case, what is the alternative?
Of course you do have alternatives. I am not saying that you must practice them but please don't blame TINA for your actions.

And I am not saying that I have never coaxed / tricked but I am VERY wary of this and always think afterwards, how could I have handled that differently? How could I have given more time/space? Just as some of us seek help and support when we have imposed our will on unwilling children for other things in other ways.


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## shell024 (May 21, 2005)

um...why don't we stick to the op? She never asked if what she was doing is GD... it seemed to me she wanted a few more tips on a method of getting a diaper on a babe from someone who suggested it previously. Did I interpret that right?
Sorry but I don't know why there is any arguing.







peace mamas!

So, Dal, I'm curious if you had another go at it!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
but please don't blame TINA for your actions.

Who's TINA?
I respect that you are diaper free. That's just great but you will understand that for many reasons, not everyone can do that... And I am sure you will also agree that one can use diapers and still GD.
It seems the OP's problem is not so much that Simon does not want to wear a diaper, it is actually that he does not want to have his diaper changed.
Mny times the reason why a toddler does not want to change his diaper is just that this is a boring activity and he would prefer to do something fun instead. But then, if changing becomes fun, it is not coercion. It is just a funny game, which both mommy and baby enjoy and can become a source of interaction and sharing. Just like so many other tasks: if putting away toys is boring who wants to do that? but if it is a rabbit dance with music it's different...


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Who's TINA?

TINA = There Is No Alternative

Quote:

But then, if changing becomes fun, it is not coercion. It is just a funny game, which both mommy and baby enjoy and can become a source of interaction and sharing. Just like so many other tasks: if putting away toys is boring who wants to do that? but if it is a rabbit dance with music it's different...
I tend to operate this way too but I am not sure deep down it sits well with me. I guess it is a matter of balance.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Oh my goodness. The way that I approached the talking diaper is one of total playfulness. I was not trying to force it on Simon in the slightest; I was trying to make getting the diaper on -- if he wanted to wear it -- an enjoyable experience. We did have fun. He read to the diaper and talked with it. If he wants to wear a dirty diaper or go without one, we deal with that.

Yesterday he started to show signs of uncomfortableness when his diaper is off. Maybe it's a bit cool in here for that. So... if today is the same, the issue is getting a wet or poopy off of him. If the diaper asking "ewwwww! Get me offa you! Can I come off so that you can read me a story?" will make that fun for him, then why would I not use that approach? I totally back off and let it go if he shows any signs of not appreciating the silliness. We do not hide the fact about what we are trying to do. The playfulness comes after a claim such as, "Simon, would you like to wear a diaper?" That we are trying to find an agreeable way to accomplish x is not a secret. The same is true with going for a car ride to help him fall asleep. We don't hide it if that is the intent of going for a ride.

Playful parenting is not gd? What is the difference between being playful about a diaper change and playful about cleaning up a room? Or playful about getting out the door (let's jump out the door like frogs!)? With a toddler there are only so many ways to respond to difficult situations -- the main one, it seems, being redirection, which this seems to be a variant of. How is the talking diaper different than singing during a change or offering a toy to help make it a more pleasant experience?

I would feel totally uncomfortable playing up the talking diaper to a point of trying to override Simon's feelings rather than just make the experience fun. I am not approaching it from a manipulative frame of mind, though I can see that it could be approached in that way. One might also, e.g., try to force food on a child with playful antics, or one might use playful antics in relation to food without being manipulative (e.g., by preseting brocolli florets as little trees and by making a sandwich look like a face -- doing this to make the food more appetizing to the child).


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi*
how is it GD to coax (trick?) children into wearing diapers if they don't want to wear them?

I am curious what you think parents should do in this situation, instead of trying to make the activity fun.

ETA : since you think these parents are coaxing and tricking their children, are you saying that you really think the children think the diaper is talking to them?







I can't imagine that being the case.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

My DC never responded well when I made something she didn't want to do playful...but I never tired to get her to give the used diaper a hug







That's funny.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

This is the kind of stuff that makes people not want to visit here. Instead of being offered help, the OP is attacked for not being GD enough, and anyone who says that the action in question sounds pretty fine is also attacked.

I admit blame too--I shouldn't have engaged. It's just that this constant "How is that GD?" stuff makes me batty.









Just please keep in mind--the OP (who I know from other posts to be very noncoercive!) DID NOT ask "Is this GD?" She did NOT say, "Let's talk about whether coaxing and Playful Parenting is GD!"


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Loraxc, I have to admit this thread was an eye opener for me. Because I love this forum so much, I have always refused to understand why some people are frustrated with it. _Now_, I do.
In fact, I think that it was was not so much the op who was attacked, but myself, for trying to share my experience, which I thought could be useful. In fact, it seems, it _was_useful for many moms on this forum.
At least you have engaged knowingly in the exchange, I myself really did NOT. Thanks for your support, I really appreciated it...


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Loraxc, I have to admit this thread was an eye opener for me. Because I love this forum so much, I have always refused to understand why some people are frustrated with it. _Now_, I do.
In fact, I think that it was was not so much the op who was attacked, but myself, for trying to share my experience, which I thought could be useful. In fact, it seems, it _was_useful for many moms on this forum.
At least you have engaged knowingly in the exchange, I myself really did NOT. Thanks for your support, I really appreciated it...


I really appreciated your advice. It did not work for me the first time I tried it, but I'm going to try again








I think sometimes people post just like drive by shootings... They don't even asess the situation first. If anyone had ever read any of Dal's posts, they would know how she tries very hard to always be respectful of Simon and does not force him to do anything he does not want to.
It's not like we are holding our screaming toddlers down forcing a diaper on them







:
After the talking diaper didn't work for dd, we played with it, she kept putting it on and off my head- no big deal, it turned into a fun game.
I don't feel *right* about most types of distraction, but I really feel they are often better than the two obvious alternatives (eg leave diaper on, force diaper off) so I will try playfullness, distraction, ect and simply go with dd's direction from there.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Sorry to hear that you feel attacked gaialice! I don't mind that someone is challenging whether the talking diaper is gd, but I don't find the way in which this was done to be particularly helpful as rumi seems to be assuming that we can somehow see for ourselves what her problems are with the situation. I do think that it's possible for me and others to be overlooking something. I don't see what the problem is in this case though, and rumi has not really come back to elaborate on why she feels that posing as a talking diaper is a disrespectful thing to do to a toddler. I still don't see why it's any different than, say, suggesting that he use his learning tower to play in the kitchen sink -- another way that helps diaper changes along.

I'm worried that if a dirty diaper doesn't get changed within a reasonable time frame, Simon may get a urinary tract infection, which can be extremely painful, and we also have a lot of carpeting (which I'm sure will need to be removed by the time toddlerhood is over!) -- not to mention that I'm not very fond of being sat on by a leaking pee-pee bum toddler, even if he is my favourite person on the planet. That I have these concerns does not mean that I over-ride Simon's feelings and force him to do things against his will. We do our best to arrive at mutually agreeable solutions, and take the talking diaper, respectfully applied, to count as such.

Perhaps rumi now sees that this method can be used respectfully and this has calmed her concerns? I can imagine obnoxious and forceful uses of it and perhaps those are what she has (or had) in mind. Then again, maybe she is opposed to the entire concept.

I would be curious to hear more about any issues that people have with redirection/playful parenting and proposed alternatives to it. I've given it some thought -- because Rainbow Bright mentioned feeling uncomfortable in relation to redirection, and I can see her point and feel some discomfort as well. The alternative though, seems to amount to breaking a child. I.e., to allowing them to be routinely frustrated -- and very much so -- until they finally accept that certain things are so (or I suppose the big upsets could just continue). This may be more honest, in a sense, but it's far more difficult on the child -- so far as I can tell. Am I missing something? If one doesn't use redirection, what does one do when a toddler needs to move on to something else for the sake of safety or sanity or giving some attention to my interests and the child has not responded to requests to do so?

A lot can be let go of, and we can toddler-proof our homes up the whazoo. I'm all for that, but there are also many situations that come up daily in which Simon simply must be redirected from something that he is doing, either for his own safety or because I'm concerned that he may cause some damage (e.g., bashing a hard toy against the wall), or simply because I want my own interests to be factored in as well. We do try to be up front and give him information about the situation rather than just use redirection in ways that don't help him to be any wiser about anything that he is doing that is dangerous and so on.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am an in the interesting place of playing peace keeper here.







Some have way with words. Some not. have. way. Remember? I didn't presume that anyone was challenging any*one*. Certainly no more than is standard fare here on the infamous GD forum.







The challenge (and discomfort) was of the *idea* of playful manipulation as well, manipulative. This question is of a higher nuance of a higher bar for non-coercive GDers even, might I call them "hard core" GDers.









There is the parenting philosophy which name we may not utter







that espouses that any type of redirection, including efforts of persuasion or convincing is inherently coercive.





















So, this seems a legitimate and useful topic to untangle or dissect.









When the goal is *non-coercion*, the use of the intellectual powers of playfully "tricking" could be deemed coercive, imo. However, I come from the position of seeking *mutually agreeable solutions* which mean that the agreement is not solely determined by *anyone's* *initial* position, request or desire which is stated, implied or communicated. My goal is to identify the *underlying needs* and meet them for *ALL* members of the family through a common agreement which is satisfactory to everyone. During *the process* of seeking further information, time passes and needs and preferences are subject to change and future agreement, EVEN THOUGH the *initial* desire may or may not be retained does occur.

For instance, if there is a wet urine spot on the bed, I might not _want_ to get out of bed in the middle of the night. (We co-sleep) Or ds might not _want_ to get up to move to another bed if the bed is wet with urine. But during the process of *communicating* about each of our needs, either of us may *change our mind* and agree to a solution to which we initially did not prefer, but do find agreeable now.

So, I (or ds) might *gain understanding* about why we need to get out of bed in the middle of the night. The solution was not *predetermined* or "non-negotiable". The possible solutions were infinite ALL ALONG. We might have just padded the bed, or stripped the sheets, or moved to one side, or only one of us might have left to leave enough dry space for one person to sleep, etc. The decision isn't foregone at the first stated desires and rejection of ideas.

*The act* of playfully changing a diaper could be coercive or non-coercive. Discussing the parameters around the *process* of implementing each parenting "technique" does come back to dissent or agreement of the child (or parent)......and then what? This is when the "gentle" and consensual factors are truly visible. What happens if "gentle" doesn't/didn't work.....*and then what?* I believe the subsequent conflict resolution process is what determines if something was respectful to the child (and parent) or not. But many here consider _if the technique was utilized gently_, even if there was dissent, then it "was GD".









Same discussion different technique, same sides of the arguement.





















So what is the rub?









Pat


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

This is hard









I don't mean to imply that I do not use redirection, I think I actually said I find it preferable to the two obvious alternatives. I'll admit I'm not good at it at all. So usually I just get grumpy and try to explain why trying to eat one end of the pen is not a good idea, and keep trying to redirect to the other non-ink end of the pen








I like the idea of coming at it from a mutually agreeable solutions perspective, but this is hard stuff for me to learn.

I tried the talking diaper today again. I do actually love playful parenting, and am loving the book. Despite the efforts, dd said no







So later I tried while distracting her and it was no problem.

Pat, how do you find mutually agreeable solutions w/pre-verbal toddlers?


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

sometimes I think it is just rediculous how some people here feel the need to pick people apart, its just not necessary.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow Brite*

Pat, how do you find mutually agreeable solutions w/pre-verbal toddlers?

Distraction and redirection. Hmmm.....not much help,







or does this help you to keep trying? What I have found is that I become more and more adept at finding mutually agreeable solutions precisely *because* I don't default to coercion. Coercion is just not an alternative in my mind, so we just keep working at it. Scooping up ds and delighting him away from something is mutually agreeable, most of the time. Otherwise I set him down and provided alternatives and playfully engaged him *toward* something else. And he ate some ink.









The book "Living Joyfully with Children" helped me to establish a "mission statement" and "bottom lines" for when I would intervene verbally to redirect or offer alternatives, or spot ds continuing what he chose to do. My family goal is to 'nurture a healthy (emotional, physical, initellectual and spiritual) foundation from which to explore the world without fear' for all of us. And my "bottom line" was "if something **probably** would send ds to the Emergency room", then I would intervene with information, redirection or support. Sucking an ink pen didn't make the grade.







I would might try to redirect, distract, provide alternatives, etc. but most any toddler activity doesn't last more than 10 minutes of focused attention, and then he would move on anyway. Mind you, the pen would disappear and be out of sight/out of mind subsequently. But if he indicated that he wanted something it would be replaced. (hard to happen with a pre-verbal child, of course)

I have a theory I call "The Toddler Rule". Basically, they enjoy moving *toward* something fun, rather than *giving up* something fun. I visualize it as a little fist that is holding onto whatever the toddler wants, UNTIL they want to let go *to pick something else up instead*. This is the most useful parenting "technique" for young children that I engaged. BUT, and this is a big BUT, giving information is critical in the long run and the younger one starts, the more effective, in my experience.

Pat


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
I would be curious to hear more about any issues that people have with redirection/playful parenting and proposed alternatives to it.


This has been and is an issue for me. It may just be that it doesn't fit well with my child but it's also just not something that I like to do with people in general. I just don't like the idea of redirecting or playing as a form of distraction because it feels manipulative and it feels, to me, like it's not honoring the other person's feelings.

But, playfulness depends greatly on the intention. I mean, if the thing becomes so absurd that you really feel it's funny and the kid does too, great. I live for moments like this.

It just has to be real and often using redirection or playfulness as a strategy seems fake.

For me, the alternative is (what I consider) a more upfront confrontation. More later....


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I think sometimes people (kids) get stuck mentally, and then distraction or silly games is very helpful. You can tell when it is helping, and when it is not.

"Direct confrontation" is an unfortunate phrase - I think I get it though, you mean speaking frankly with DC about the issue at hand, i.e. "here is my perception of the problem, what is yours - what do you think we should do about it" kind of approach. I agree that this is desirable most times, but sometimes it just makes DS mad. Sometimes it's better just to move on.

Bottom line - I do think there is a difference between bribery and redirection - it is up to the parent to be honest enough to spot it.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I am the champion of playful parenting, I really do use it a lot and it comes naturally to me to be funny with my kids. They laugh a lot and we get things done without even noticing. However, I am really starting to see the limitations of this approach. The true fact is, dc do not seem to really own what they are doing. A lot is done "to them" while they are playing!
I must say, during toddlerhood, I don't see being playful as a manipulation. It is really true that it becomes a different way of doing things and playing at changing diaper is really to a toddler like playing at the big bad wolf. However, it is a dangerous habit for the parent to get into in the sense that now my dd1 is 5 yo and I do not see her taking responsibility for anything at all that has to get done.
At the same time you see, I am a full time working mother, my children are in daycare, my spouse travels 3-4 working days of the week. I can certainly see that I could be more direct with my requests. Nevertheless, I also do see that - in my specific situation - there is just sooo little room for negotiation, unfortunately, that it is either playful parenting or coercion. And I do not want to use bribes or rewards. I am seeing more and more that the whole set up of our lives is very confining and it is not something I am very happy with. I don't know, I would not be happy at staying at home all day, my job is rewarding and I would be resentful just giving my job up.
I feel however we are reaching a limit with a certain part of my playful parenting antics for my now 5 yo dd1. On the other hand, being a playful mama spending a lot of time on the carpet with my kids role playing and all that is certainly helpful. But I am not sure how to gently direct my children to do what has to be done. I try to do family meetings, come up with plans, etc. but these good resolutions are fine on paper but do not seem to ""stick"...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

It just has to be real and often using redirection or playfulness as a strategy seems fake.
If I was inclined to worry about this point (which I admit, I'm not, really) I would have to say that I think redirection is inherently more fake/coercive than playfulness, at least the way I do it. There were times when DD was younger when redirection looked a lot like the famous gag where you say to another adult, "Hey, look, is that Elvis??" and then pick his pocket, or whatever. I can see how someone could philosophically find this objectionable, but I am a very results-oriented person and less of a philosopher. I also think a one-year-old does not feel "tricked" by this as an adult who is aware of the subterfuge would.

The key to playful parenting, IMO, is not "tricking" or "distracting" but *reconnecting.* You use the playfulness to change the mood and get yourself and your DC back on the same "side" emotionally. It's the same thing, in my mind, as the way an adult may be more likely to take a bit of criticism or a request to change how they do things better when it's done with humor or with a playful, cooperative spirit. It is also about playing with the power dynamic and allowing your DC to take on the "power" role and fool with it, which I think can be immensely healing to children.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
You use the playfulness to change the mood and get yourself and your DC back on the same "side" emotionally.


Oh, yea. I can definately see that.

For the record, I'm not really thinking of other people when I say this stuff. In fact, I haven't given any thought in what it is when other peopel redirect or use playfulness. I have absolutely no doubt that it's different when others do it.

And, I think it also has a great deal to do with what the motivation is. Like you said, it could be to reconnect. Or like FMB said, to help pull a child out of a negative head space. Not that it really matters what I think but I don't feel this is manipulative...or at least not in a negative way. If we were going to use adult interactions as a model, I think distracting a person from misery is ok in some situations as is making a tence situation playful.

I guess it's more when it's along the lines of "I can't deal with this right now" or "I know this person doesn't want to do this but I going to try to slip it by" that I like to avoid.

BUT, I can't avoid it all the time. I hope I'm not giving off the impresson that I don't do this stuff because I DO! I just don't think it's ideal.

The other thing is that this is an age thing. How old are your kids, Dal? Around 2 years, DC became aware that this was more of a tactic than an honest interaction is why I don't like to do it.

There are also just things that I want her to learn and know about and sometimes it feels like joking around or distracting her quickly kind of blocks the stuff from sinking in, iykwim? I also have the fear that *I* don't listen well when I'm focused on distracting. I worry that I could actually push something by that I shouldn't or that I'll miss the reason for oppossitoin on DC's part.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
If I was inclined to worry about this point (which I admit, I'm not, really) I would have to say that I think redirection is inherently more fake/coercive than playfulness, at least the way I do it.

I really feel this is true. I love the idea of playfullness, and just need to implement it more. It's a bit ackward at first, but I am getting better, and I actually have fun


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

OK. I am here to defend the talking diaper! This is a very gentle, playful, hilarious and fun way to persuade a reluctant toddler to put on a diaper.

I think I may have been the original person who suggested the talking diaper, ETA: (but it is great that so many of us want to be the first! it may have been gaia) the idea I got from Pantley's book on Kid Cooperation. My older dd went through a phase where she would not change her diaper. Would not take off the wet one. I tried TCS and she got her first rash at the age of two. A bad one that hurt her. I tried different kinds of diapers. I changed her standing up, let her do stuff, jokes, songs, etc.

Then I tried the talking diaper. Basically, you snap a kissaluv on your head or a disposable pullup and talk in a happy, animated British accent. You then take two more diapers and wear them on your hands like puppets and have the puppets talk about how much they want a turn at being the child's diaper.

The result? Total happiness and fun. My daughter went from crying to fascination and actually hugged the diaper and tried to put it on herself. It changed things from misery to happiness.

I don't care if it is officially gentle discipline or not. It was fun, it worked well for our family, so I shared the idea. It worked well for several of my friends.

Yes, in an ideal world a child would never have to do anything they don't want to do. But I gotta tell you, my dd did want to wear those talking diapers.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Here is one more detailed description (ETA I pulled this from an earlier thread, then got caught up in an urgent matter involving a baby doll and can't find it now, just to clarify, this is from a search of the forums that turned up a bunch of threads with "talking diaper"):

OK, we had this bad, but found a real solution that always works
Definitely presnap. Kissaluvs work really well for standing changes, and I keep two kissaluvs just for those times that Rosie is a baby on the run and won't lie down.

I found this solution in Elizabeth Pantley's book, "Kid Cooperation." It works 100% of the time, with every kid I have ever seen or heard about. Please know that you have to use enthusiasm and really get into it to make it work. If you just sort of hold the diaper on your hand and talk in your normal voice, it won't work.

It is called "the talking diaper." Basically, you presnap a fitted diaper or use a disposable easyup and make it into a handpuppet. You then make the diaper talk in a funny voice, saying things like "I want to be your diaper" or "I want to wear you" (bad grammar, but it works). "I want to hug you and be your friend." "Can I kiss you?" "Can I tickle you on the tummy?"

I guarantee that it will work with every child, if you are properly enthusiastic. No flat presentations, please. A funny voice and funny accent are required.

After a few days or weeks, you can cut back on the routine and not do it every time, but you will need to add some spice. I usually have the diapers call to Gracie from the drawer, "pick me, pick me" "no, it's my turn, I get to be her diaper!!!" Then she runs to choose a diaper from the drawer. Sometimes two diapers are put on my hands, each as a puppet, and they talk and argue with each other about who gets to be the diaper.

I also find that it helps a lot to snap up a diaper and wear it on my head while talking in the funny voice. I call the diaper on my head a "bonnet" and talk in a high voice with a fake British accent.

It got so bad with us that I was afraid I was emotionally scarring Gracie for life by chasing her down and changing her diaper. Nothing worked, and each diaper change was a hellacious ordeal, complete with real tears and sobbing. I finally gave up and tried "Taking Children Seriously" (which is a whole other thread) and I only forced changes for poopy diapers. All that happened was that, at two years of age, Gracie got her first and only diaper rash.

I tried toys, I did all diaper changes standing, changes of scenery, holding a cat, I tried praise, even rewards, you name it, I tried it. I was desperate!!! Then I found the talking diaper, and all of the problems that had tormented us for months evaporated in a single diaper change.

Good luck. I can't wait to hear if it works for you. Remember -- enthusiasm and wear a diaper on your head while you do it!


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

inezyv, thank you for the very funny image I have in my head right now.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

It's very sad, but I wrote that post at least a year ago. I now re-read it and I can't believe that I let it get so far as to ever chase her down to change a poopy diaper. Yikes, what a horrible thing to do to a little girl. :-( I feel like editing it out, but I am letting it stand.

Interesting thread. I thought TCS and GD were different concepts, but some of the posts above make me think they may be the same. But that's a whole other thread than the Talking Diaper.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am confused about what part you consider "horrible": that you chased and forced her or that you left the poopy diaper on a long time?

And I will bite: how exactly do you believe that TCS and GD are different concepts?









Pat


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Hey, inezyv, I personally want to send you lots of thanks for posting about this method.














It has REALLY worked well for my DD, who has been resisting changes for a long time (and we have tried everything too, including the let-her-get-a-rash technique







). She even starts saying "I want the diaper to talk to me!" as soon as I say anything about her needing a change. It's AWESOME. I just wish I'd read the idea sooner!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I am confused about what part you consider "horrible": that you chased and forced her or that you left the poopy diaper on a long time?

And I will bite: how exactly do you believe that TCS and GD are different concepts?









Pat

Pat, how about starting a different thread about how they are different concepts? I thought that GD was a sort of umbrella for a number of different gentle parenting techniques, and that TCS was sort of one subset.

I feel horrible that I chased her and forced her, but thanks for making that clear! I think that was a very bad mistake on my part, to put it mildly.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

:














\\ Another happy talking diaper story!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc*
Hey, inezyv, I personally want to send you lots of thanks for posting about this method.














It has REALLY worked well for my DD, who has been resisting changes for a long time (and we have tried everything too, including the let-her-get-a-rash technique







). She even starts saying "I want the diaper to talk to me!" as soon as I say anything about her needing a change. It's AWESOME. I just wish I'd read the idea sooner!


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
I can't believe that I let it get so far as to ever chase her down to change a poopy diaper.

IKWYM - I've done it and I feel bad about it too.









But, yk - even though I feel like I have grown as a parent and a person since having DS (and DD), and there are definitely things I did then that I would not do now - still, I find myself holding baby DD down with one hand and grimly fastening a diaper on as fast as I can with the other, while she screams.







I wonder if I'll still do it when she's 18 mos., like I did sometimes with DS - except I had to hold him down with my legs because he was too strong to restrain with one hand, by then.

I wouldn't do this with an older child, of course - but I can't just let my 6 month old get a rash because she won't cooperate with getting her diaper changed. When DS was 18 mos. old I still thought he was too young to understand the consequences of sitting in a poopy diaper for an hour, plus sometimes we had places we had to go and I didn't feel right about making him sit in poop in his carseat.

Of course it is always better to get their voluntary cooperation. But when all else fails, sometimes you have to use force. I don't mean violent, angry force. I mean sometimes you have to gently, physically overpower someone. I admit, I do it to DS all the time. He gets in these rages, he loses all control and he screams, flails, gets rigid, etc. and I pin him down and hold him until he calms down. It's like a forceful hug. When DD doesn't want to get changed, I do it as fast as I can and with as minimal force as possible but let's face it, sometimes you gotta change the baby and the baby don't wanna be changed!

The thing I feel sorry about is the times I was angry about it. Sometimes I lost my temper and I was rough about it or I yelled at him and was somewhat abusive in my physical domination of him, and that is what I feel bad about, and have learned from and tried to avoid.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I like the talking diaper idea!







:

OT.....I have a hard time finding where I "fit" with my parenting philosophies. WRT my friends, family, mothers I associate with, I'm at one end of the spectrum (in terms of gentle discipline, I will not spank or yell, use positive discipline, validate my toddler's emotions, etc.) but here I seem to be on the other end. I guess I'm extreme (for here) in that I will chase down my 2 1/2 year old to change a poopy diaper if necessary.







I give him choices, which usually work - ie "Do you want to have your diaper changed upstairs or downstairs?" "Do you want to pick a book to look at while I change you?" etc. There are occasions, though, in which I will simply scoop him up to change him if he doesn't want to be changed (after trying to get him to cooperate by participating the process, though.) I always precede that by "Mama needs to change your diaper, we'll be getting you cleaned up soon." and other "fair warnings" so I'm not just grabbing him out of the blue, but it's one of the few things that I won't debate with my toddler, that and staying buckled in the car seat.

Just sort of musing about how I don't "fit in" with a lot the mainstream parents I know, but at the same time don't quite "fit" here....But there are variations within the GD spectrum, right? Are there acceptable degrees of disagreement within the philosophy.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

famousmockngbird, here is a recent thread about the dangers of restraint holding. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...54#post4190754

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

But there are variations within the GD spectrum, right? Are there acceptable degrees of disagreement within the philosophy.
We disagree here all the time. So, it looks like you will "fit in" fine.







But, I don't concern myself whether others here agree with how I am in relationship with our son, I care about how our son feels about how I am in relationship with him. *His agreement* matters to me.









Pat


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

You know what I just realized... the talking diaper thing is not really a "trick." Maybe that term sort of gives the impression of a trick. It is just a fun diaper changing game that uses diapers.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

scubamama - thanks for the link. I don't think what I am doing is holding therapy, it's more along the lines of keeping him from doing harm to people and property. But what usually happens follows along these lines - he gets upset about something and it quickly escalates to a situation where he is hitting someone, or trying to rip a toy away by force, or throwing things, etc. I have to stop him from doing these things, obviously, so what usually happens is I put my arms around him to restrain him, which enrages him further so I end up picking him up and going to a quiet place with him. He is usually really out of control by now so I sit and hold him, yes against his will, and try to help him calm down. I try to get him to take deep breaths, etc. He does often ask me to let him go. If he's screaming, I tell him we can talk about it when he stops screaming. If he's not screaming, I ask him what will happen when I let him go. Sometimes he says, "I'm going to go over to that kid and yank that paper right out of his hand!" Then I say I can't let him go yet. He usually screams some more. Then he calms down and when he is back in control of himself, I let go of him. Sometimes he just wants to be left alone after that, and sometimes he wants to cuddle. I don't really know why it's one or the other.

So, I have arrived at this method through trial and error and it seems to work OK except that DS does get very upset when I am holding/restraining him. I don't know if that's good or bad - is he having a bad emotional reaction to being overpowered, or does he feel like he's in a safe place to release all his negative energy? I'm still not really sure but I obviously tend towards the latter or I wouldn't be doing it.

Sorry to hijack.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
scubamama - thanks for the link. I don't think what I am doing is holding therapy, it's more along the lines of keeping him from doing harm to people and property. But what usually happens follows along these lines - he gets upset about something and it quickly escalates to a situation where he is hitting someone, or trying to rip a toy away by force, or throwing things, etc. I have to stop him from doing these things, obviously, so what usually happens is I put my arms around him to restrain him, which enrages him further so I end up picking him up and going to a quiet place with him. He is usually really out of control by now so I sit and hold him, yes against his will, and try to help him calm down. I try to get him to take deep breaths, etc. He does often ask me to let him go. If he's screaming, I tell him we can talk about it when he stops screaming. If he's not screaming, I ask him what will happen when I let him go. Sometimes he says, "I'm going to go over to that kid and yank that paper right out of his hand!" Then I say I can't let him go yet. He usually screams some more. Then he calms down and when he is back in control of himself, I let go of him. Sometimes he just wants to be left alone after that, and sometimes he wants to cuddle. I don't really know why it's one or the other.

So, I have arrived at this method through trial and error and it seems to work OK except that DS does get very upset when I am holding/restraining him. I don't know if that's good or bad - is he having a bad emotional reaction to being overpowered, or does he feel like he's in a safe place to release all his negative energy? I'm still not really sure but I obviously tend towards the latter or I wouldn't be doing it.

Sorry to hijack.









Continuing the hijack as we have had similar issues and what I am comfortable with is looking for patterns to the incidents and working to address the overwhelming stimuli which brought our son to such distress in the first place. Our son has physical sensory seeking behaviors, food intolerances and is highly sensitive to outside stimuli such as crowds, lights, noise, clothing, etc. We are very selective about engaging in activities when he isn't well rested and has eaten some protein. I believe your son is about 3? We have had significant progression to being able to share, take turns, listen to other's needs, honoring boundaries, etc. (both in playgroups and at home) by avoiding dairy and other food intolerances (let me know if you need more info).

In the event that our son would be forceful against anther person, (can't remember that happening for a long time), I would remove the "victim". Or interject my body between them, rather than using force to 'get my way'. I understand that your goal is to protect the other person, but I would expect that a child is perceiving you as *modelling* using force. I strongly believe that our actions imprint more than our words. So, saying 'we may not grab, hit, kick, etc.' because the other person doesn't want you to do that; but if *I* am grabbing, and holding him when he doesn't want me to do that.....you see the confused and contradictory message.

So, unless I am confident that our son is likely to have self control, we would avoid the situations where self control is essential for other's safety. We have found that neutral territory (especially when ds was younger) was optimal for playdates with *new* children. Once children were more familiar, the stress of the unknown (?) abates and visits in each other's homes was more congenial. The number of children, and ages of children at different times mattered too. For instance at 3, toddlers were really hard to play with because they take and touch things indiscriminately. Older children who have more impulse control were more companionable. Also, because our son is very physical, it is essential for him to have physical outlets. So, indoors with other children on rainy days are harder (ie. shorter tolerance before frustration overload) than on sunny days outside.

By recognizing the patterns of what worked best for ds, we have a full and engaging social calendar without the meltdowns that you describe. One aspect that has become apparent also is that I can not be off chatting away while I expect him to remain companionable when other children are 'in his space'. Personally, I believe most playdates are more frustration than benefit for children before they are asking to see each other, usually around age 4-4.5.

Basically, I avoid putting ds in an environment to the limit of his endurance. The grabbing and hitting are symptoms of overstimulation beyond his developmental or situational impulse control, imo. The HALT theory has served me well in examining what needs are unmet. But the prevention is something that I help ds to look at 'how does your body feel' when I see him starting to be more impatient, before the escalation. By avoiding the incident, the holding isn't necessary. Our son does comfort with chest pressure, rocking, body contact. But I only do that to the limit of his consent.

Oh, Cherry Plum or Rescue Remedy help to settle ds if we overlook the point of no return and he melts down due to hunger, frustration, overly tired, overstimulation. There are usually signals that he is not at his best that I help him to recognize and listen to and address.

HTH, Pat


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## alamama (Mar 21, 2005)

Quote:

By recognizing the patterns of what worked best for ds
Did you journal or otherwise keep record in order to note patterns over time? It seems so easy to forget connections that have been observed, and also there are often multiple variables at play (i.e. tired _and_ overstimulated). Just curious what worked for you.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alamama*
Did you journal or otherwise keep record in order to note patterns over time? It seems so easy to forget connections that have been observed, and also there are often multiple variables at play (i.e. tired _and_ overstimulated). Just curious what worked for you.

No, I am not quite that anal (or organized). But it would help though.







Mostly, I found it intellectually stimulating to 'play detective' watching for patterns. Interestingly, one only sees variances when things are *not* going smoothly.







I never understood how some people don't feel intellectually stimulated by 'staying home taking care of kids'. I have always found the watchful observation, pattern recognition, intervention and reevaluation of the situation to be both challenging and rewarding. A puzzle. A very dynamic puzzle.







So, writing observations down, such as Pantley suggests in the No Cry Sleep Solution would certainly make things more efficient. I just do things the long drawn out hard way, I guess.

I have learned from others too about cues and the HALT theory has been a life line to helping me to learn to listen to my own body too. Mostly, I have been learning emotional awareness and self-care concurrently with child care. One of the things that I have observed is how poorly I listened to my own body and neglected my physical needs for protein and rest (and exercise). I really feel that this is due in part to having always been *told* when to sleep, and when and what to eat as a child, rather than encouraged, facilitated and supported to listen to my body's messages, instincts, feelings and needs.







: This really wasn't an issue when only my own self-care was my responsibility. It was when I was 24/7 responsible for ds that my own lack of self-care and self-awareness became evident. (You know, thinking I could burn both ends of the candle and not run out of reserves. I still suffer from not listening to my body. But, not as much.)

I am trying a different method with ds: self-awareness and self-control with facilitation, rather than direction. This requires Trust, rather than Fear though and that was a whole 'nuther can of worms (childhood baggage) to deal with. We are learning all the time and I do believe that our children teach us what we most need to learn.

Pat


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Talking diapers sound like a great idea! I'm glad I read (most of) this thread.









~Nay


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

scubamama, I appreciate the post and you have given me a lot to think about.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Did someone refer to me as a drive-by? Hey, I am parked right here, listening,

Hey Dal, Gaialice ... nothing personal! more power to you, mamas!

CertainlyI don't want to be 'gentler than thou'
maybe i shouldn't have raised a theory question in a practical thread.

As it happens i don't think diapers are gd, nor do i think trickery is gd.

I try not to use trickery even for things that i believe are good and healthy, such as eating veggies, brushing teeth, taking naps, wearing pants ...

Not to say I always live up to my ideals. I have been pondering the forms and lines between play, tricks, manipulation, coercion.

Maybe the child who said, "I want my diaper to talk to me" is really expressing a need to come to terms, seeking out communication.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Hi Rumi,
As someone else said on this forum, playing is the language of kids, so the talking diaper (or the smiling veggie) is to me like a child-friendly way of requesting cooperation. Children like these stories and rituals. For instance, I made a game up for washing teeth (explained in another thread). The story I made up actually reflects the true facts about cavities bla bla but in a more child-appropriate language. I guess you would see that as a trick too. I do say something like "Hey Joe (the bacterium that cause caries), what do you do there in dd's mouth" And then I chase him all over their mouths and they chase him too. They like it so much and when time for washing teeth comes they always want to hear that story again. Why is that a bad thing? They are happy to wash their teeth, they learn about cavities, they laugh, they associate washing teeth with connection, with happiness and do not see as another chore to get done. Me too, I find that I enjoy teeth washing, I have fun...
Also, what do you mean when you say that "diapers are not GD"? Do you really think that anyone who uses a diaper in not GDing his children? That is a very strict definition of GD. There's more to discipline than diapers.
Also, one cannot reduce playful parenting to tricks. Playful parenting is a language that allows parents and children to connect and bond. And in that close bond and connection things happen naturally and consensus is built. Even if before the game started consensus was perhaps not there. I'd agree if you said that playful parenting is not TCS but to say that it is not GD, that I disagree.
I like playing with dc. I play with them all the time I am with them. So, it is not like I change gears and start playing just to get you to wash teeth. It is just a shift from a game to another. Childhood should be spent playing...
It is also true that parenting playfully is within reach of many parents, who could not possibly TCS...


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

Also, one cannot reduce playful parenting to tricks. Playful parenting is a language that allows parents and children to connect and bond. And in that close bond and connection things happen naturally and consensus is built. Even if before the game started consensus was perhaps not there. I'd agree if you said that playful parenting is not TCS but to say that it is not GD, that I disagree.
I like playing with dc. I play with them all the time I am with them. So, it is not like I change gears and start playing just to get you to wash teeth. It is just a shift from a game to another. Childhood should be spent playing...
It is also true that parenting playfully is within reach of many parents, who could not possibly TCS...
Great point. We play the "animal" game when I brush DS's teeth (2 1/2.) While I brush I say, "Hey, look, elephants! I'll get them out..how many are in there?" and DS happily yells, "Two!! No, TREE! TREE ele-pants!!" and so on. It's really fun and he loves to have me brush his teeth now ("Mama!! Animals...mouth!! Brush TEEF!!") and he picks which animals we'll find that night. I'm not "tricking" him, we're playing a game...one he enjoys. I don't get what's objectionable about having fun with a two year old and being silly together...isn't that kind of the great part about being a kid? I like the distinction between TCS and playful parenting....


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Someone here asked the difference between GD and TCS.

I think it is that GD involves any non punitive discipline technique. BUT unlike TCS it does not have to involve "mutually agreeable solutions"

In our house I make the rules for young children. They are expected to follow those rules. Logical consequences are imposed only to protect the child's person or the person or property of another. Under no definition could that be TCS. But the way I run my house, I believe it falls quite squarely under the defintion of GD.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I would just like to say, again, that I do not think all the "this is not GD" talk is good for this forum. I think we can all agree that spanking is not GD, nor is yelling or abusive use of words. Other than that, I wish we'd stay away from the "GD/not GD" debate, UNLESS that is what the thread is about. Again, I see the possibility of newbies soming in here, seeing someone say "Diapers are not GD" and just throwing up their hands, thinking that GD is impossible for them.

As for whether my daughter is trying to communicate with me by saying she wants the diaper to talk to her...well, I think she's trying to communicate that that game is fun and that it makes changes more pleasant for her.







: We talk often about how she could use the potty and how that would make changes unnecessary. We ask her regularly if she wants to use the potty, and she says no. She doesn't even want to try right now; anyway, she is very much in the "do it myself" stage but she cannot yet dress and undress herself, which would set us up for endless struggles wrt pottying. I think it would be "not GD" of me to force the issue at this point (she is barely two, ftr).


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Rumi,
from what you wrote in another thread I guess you felt attacked in this particular thread. I am sorry about that. Your point about trickery is valid and a good one. It made me think, and evaluate some of the things we do. Nevertheless I love rituals and games and I will keep creating new.
I think the reason why people reacted to your post in a negative way is that when you say that something "is not GD" on a GD forum what you are really saying is: "If you do that you do not belong here". YKWIM?
Since everyone has their own definition of GD and we are here to help each other and see other people's perspectives it may be better to say:"In my family we do not do XYZ because ... " rather than "I think that is not GD".
Also, in a recent thread on TCS I learnt a whole lot, especially because the TCSers on the thread were saying "a TCS parent would not do XYZ he would do KKK" Well, maybe that would suit my family, maybe not but it gave me something to think about. In this thread, instead, there was just some vague reference to "alternatives".
Anyway, I am sorry, it turns out we both felt attacked in this thread. I appreciate your points of view and I will keep reading your posts with interest.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Hi again,

Not to be overly defensive, but I think we agree more than it seems ... I thought by saying "I think" that I was clarifying that this was my own point of view and we all took for granted that everyone will have her own views about whether a particular practice, be it timeout, tokens, counting, diapering, consequences, confinement, etc

a) is gd
b) is an acceptable exception to gd
c) can be done in a gently disciplinary way (or not)
d) is acceptable gd if used in a limited way
e) is not gd









Thanks for taking the time to post again. Just to clear the air, I would just like to share with you that your earlier post where you informed me of what children are like made me wonder, "does she think I dont have any?"

I might have different views about children and play, but anyway on to your more specific question which perhaps is more interesting:

Quote:

Also, what do you mean when you say that "diapers are not GD"? Do you really think that anyone who uses a diaper is not GDing his children? That is a very strict definition of GD. There's more to discipline than diapers.
Again, according to my own understanding of gd, (which probably involves a bit of tcs though i have never formally studied tcs), i dont think diapers represent a mutually agreeable solution to infant hygiene that involves hearing what babies tell us or understing their needs (and wants!). Some people may have other views on diapers (e.g.., see options a-e above) and would proceed accordingly.

(At the risk of sounding defensive again,) pls note that I did say that this is what I THINK and merely asked in my initial post what others thought - how do you reconcile diapering with gd? Other than spanking I suppose every thing else is up for a wide range of opinions on this list and this diversity makes the interactions more useful for all of us - or many of us, certainly including me.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Mmmmmmm. I really do not want to leave any ill-feelings. So I will try again.

"I would just like to share with you that your earlier post where you informed me of what children are like made me wonder, "does she think I dont have any?"

I am sorry if I offended you. I went through my posts and yes, I realize I did make some general statements about kids. It may be I have a long-rounded way to express my point of view, but these statements were not made to diminish you or to imply that you do not understand kids.

But bear with me. Saying "I think this is not GD" really does put people down. Saying "we do not do this in our family because...." is a much gentler way of expressing the same thing. It is the same thing we all do with our kids. Saying "I think hitting is not gentle" is different from saying "Hitting hurts" and show dc how to stroke instead of hitting.

This way of talking is also more helpful for other moms.

In fact, I think the OP, kristimetz would have really benefitted from you saying "We do not do the talking diaper in my family b'se we think it is manipulative. We do ec instead. We do ec because .... If you want to try ec and need advice please come to the ec forum." Indeed, she is going that way now, so I believe your advice was definetely useful to her but you will agree your advice was not expressed very clearly in the beginning.

I really hope we can agree and move on with no ill feelings. I understand that for you the words "I think" were enough to clarify that you were willing to hear other opinions. To me a different expression like the one I laid out above would have been more appropriate. Can we agree to disagree about this?


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

you will agree your advice was not expressed very clearly in the beginning.
well i wont agree on that because i think i was just raising a question for the sake of it and not at all trying to give advice!

Quote:

To me a different expression like the one I laid out above would have been more appropriate. Can we agree to disagree about this?
Well I agree that the way you suggested would have been more clear in expressing what you thought would have been more appropriate to express.

ANYWAY I think that is enough for now. sweet dreams!


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

There are no ill feelings on my part, but then, sorry to see there are stîll many ill feelings from your side. Sweet dreams to you too ...


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

At the risk of fueling the embers.....*I* think that the use of "I think" is totally unnecessary, because I believe that each person's statements or opinions hold no more and no less validity (as a representation of what they _believe_) than my own.







So, if I say "hitting children is wrong" (which I don't say because I choose not to use the fault/blame lexicon); or if I say "hitting children hurts them"; or if I say "I think hitting children is necessary discipline"; or if I say "I believe that children won't learn right from wrong if you don't spank them", *ONLY* convey the message as a mere representation about what _*I* believe_, at this point in time. No one's statement connotes some Truth about the Universe. Perhaps, some people do know/think/believe that just because *they* "know", "think" or "believe" xyz that it is a Truth.









I have certainly altered my beliefs and personal perceptions with additional information. Life is a dynamic perception, not a static, finite one. That is the treasure of on-line forums! There are so many different journeys that are shared; and eaches' Truth (perception) IS different and equally valid as their own. As MissRubyKen's sig line states *"Different truths exist simultaneously and we must weave them together to create a story that honors the needs of all."* So, I don't understand when people get upset because someone writes "xyz is such and such"; or "I think abc" or "I believe qrs". In a coercive world where others *make* you do what they want you to do, regardless of your agreement or dissent, I can see how a difference of opinion could create defensiveness.......but no one is going to *make* you (generic you) do something you don't want to do....certainly not the non-coercive mamas.









It would help if readers understood that people who choose to live consensually state their opinions and beliefs and listen to other's opinions and beliefs without this same filter. This is a significant positive aspect of living without fear of coercion.







We can all disagree.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

:

And no one here expresses their opinions with the intention of implying that those who don't agree with them don't belong here. (At least that is my perception.) It's just sharing an opinion.















Maybe I'm missing something.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
In fact, I think the OP, kristimetz would have really benefitted from you saying "We do not do the talking diaper in my family b'se we think it is manipulative. We do ec instead.


Just to clarify... I am not the OP of this thread. I started a different thread on the GD forum about diapering... I guess there's a lot of us having diapering issues right now.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

And no one here expresses their opinions with the intention of implying that those who don't agree with them don't belong here.
Mmmm...I kind of disagree. I have seen posts that say, either explicitly or directly, "I can't believe this is the GD forum!" as if to imply that the poster does not belong. I have seen very scolding and belittling tones.

And I do think that questioning the GD-ness of something, even with an "I think," is not appropriate in all (many? most?) threads. I think it's fine in an "Am I doing the right thing?" or "Is this gd?" or "What do you think of this?" thread, though I would still hope everyone would express themselves gently.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Hmmm, I see your point loraxc. I guess I just don't care (enough to be upset, anyway) whether or not other people agree with what I'm doing not because their opinions aren't valid and valuable, but because I know my family best and am trying my best to do right by my kids based on the information I have-and I'm confident and comfortable with most of my choices and I accept that I do make mistakes and trust that we'll all be okay so long as I'm doing my best. So none of the arguing over what's gd or not gets to me. It's interesting to me to see what other's do in their families and what others believe, and in no way does a differing point of view or opinion offend me no matter how it is expressed. I really _don't_ see the expressions of people's opinions and beliefs as an attack regardless of how it's phrased (and yes, people have definitely questioned here the GD-ness of things I happen to do), just as an opinion. And so what if someone came out and said "sledg, you are an idiot and you are scarring your children for life with your horrendous parenting"? No one's opinion can hurt me, no one's comments can hurt me, no one's words can hurt me-unless I let them. Yeah, gentle expression is nice and I prefer it but everyone's definition of gentle is different-and everyone's ability to communicate eloquently differs. Doesn't bother me unless I let it.








But I've always been a little weird.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

There is a vast difference between not choosing to practice GD and posting here _within_ the guidelines of the forum, and choosing to post advocating non-GD practices here. Every*one* is welcome here. However, posts that advocate non-GD practices are not in line with the posting guidelines. It certainly seems useful to notify someone who may not be aware of the posting guidelines.......the catch is not everyone agrees that using physical force or coercion to make their children comply is "gentle". I believe that most people would not agree that being *made to* do something against their will is "gentle".









The posting guidelines "presume that *cooperation can be engaged*".

Pat


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