# Please critique our handling of meltdown.



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

We had this episode today, and I'm wondering what we should've done. These types of episodes aren't uncommon, but the details of this one are fresh.

We go to a very small UU church that's generally child-friendly. We have snacks after service. DH and I were helping put things away from the service, and the kids (not just ours) went over to the refreshment table. All of a sudden, I hear DS crying. I go over, and he said he didn't want his cake broken. So I said I'd eat his piece and get him another one. He just started screaming no.

I took him out into the hallway to talk to him. Basically one of the women at church asked if he wanted his slice of cake (it was one of those narrow pound cakes) broken in half. He said no, but she broke it. (I don't know if she didn't hear/understand him, or it was really not a question meant to be answered - asking as she did it). He will not eat food broken in half. He's refused meals before because of these kinds of issues, which is why I initally offered to eat it. (I assumed he'd accidentally broken it.)

So, I think he's calmed down, but we go back in. He sees the pound cake and freaks out. DH and I take him aside 3 more times, but he cannot get over it. So, we leave. About halfways down the stairs, he sits and refuses to move. DH picked him up and said that we can't stop on the stairs. Plus, DS is screaming at the top of his lungs. So, as we walk out, DS tries to get lose and is just kicking and hitting DH and saying how we always do this to him, we're mean, and on and on.

DH stops and kneels down. He asks DS if he wants to walk to the car (about a block). DS says yes. We walk about 10 steps, and he literally lies out flat on the sidewalk and starts crying about his cake and the fact that I didn't get his drink before we left. I have my hands full, so I wait while DH gets DD in the car. He comes back and gets DS and puts him in the car. We drive home with DS screaming the entire way.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I don't see how you could have done anything differently. He wasn't in a place where he could reason with you, or figure out a better solution.

It might be helpful to look at antecedents, though, and see if you can find a pattern. You mentioned that he didn't like foods "broken" and it also sounds like it doesn't work to then offer a non-broken piece of the same thing.

It could be that he has sensory issues going on, that the church service was overstimulating and he melted down over something insignificant because he was at his limit. Maybe he is unable to do large groups yet.

It could also, or otherwise, be that the environment had little to do with it, and he has issues with rigid thinking and inflexibility. The Explosure Child (a book) might be worth a read.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Yep, sounds like what I would have done. I can totally see one of my girls having this exact same freakout. Actually, she has, but not in public (just luck at not having the situation come up). Other than letting him freak out on the floor until he was totally done with the tantrum (which I know could take a loooong time and is not practical when you have another child with you, people are there, etc.) I can't imagine what you could have done differerently.

Oh wait! You could have waved your magic tantrum-stopper wand! You did get yours, didn't you?


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
It might be helpful to look at antecedents, though, and see if you can find a pattern.

He feels wronged.

That's not always it, but it was today. It is the source of many, many tantrums. And the truth is that I agree with him. I have a very rigid sense of right and wrong and always have. I've lost friends because of it. My parents cut me off financially because of it (because I was in an interracial relationship and wouldn't bail to keep them from embarassment). So, I do know where he's coming from, but I also know that I internalize my anger more. As I've gotten older, I've learned to channel big anger (over social injustices) into an activist life. I just don't know how to transfer those lessons to DS.

In his mind, today, she asked if he wanted his cake broken. He said no. She broke it. That shouldn't have happened. And, he is right, but what's done is done. If he'd broken the cake accidentally, he would've been fine with me eating his piece and letting him get a new one. It was just that he kept yelling, "but she didn't listen to me! She broke my cake!" He did this once because he asked DH to cut his pancakes. DH said okay, just a second. He was taking his insulin at the time. MIL reached over and cut DS' pancakes. He told her no, he wanted Dad to but she didn't listen. He wouldn't eat because he asked his dad. His dad said yes. He told MIL not to cut them. To him there is no wavering from his position.

I don't know how to explain that sometimes your position is right but the reaction needs to be controlled. Nor do I know how to explain that sometimes we do have to move on when what we wanted didn't happen and cannot be corrected.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

The out-of-synch child book may help shed some perspective.

DD is 3 and has moments of this type of rigidity. She sometimes gets it into her head that she needs this particular piece of an item, and another, duplicate piece can't be substituted. Like, she needs to have the napkin on top of the pile, and if I use that one for something else and then give her the next, identical to me, napkin it's a meltdown. because I said I'd give her a napkin to clean up with, and she had plans for the napkin I unfortunately used for something else. it really is all about the napkin, which in her mind was hers. Sure, it's more likely to happen if she's tired or hungry or otherwise cranky, but really, it's rigidity in the idea of what's "hers" and what to me is identical but different - and to her is just totally different and wrong. Replacement in those instances does not help. I can sometimes talk her through it, and sometimes can't. Either way, a few hours or even days later, she'll come to terms with it and bring it up again out of the blue, and be able to discuss it more.

The Out-of-Sync Child books may really help.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
He feels wronged.

That's not always it, but it was today. It is the source of many, many tantrums. And the truth is that I agree with him. I have a very rigid sense of right and wrong and always have. I've lost friends because of it. My parents cut me off financially because of it (because I was in an interracial relationship and wouldn't bail to keep them from embarassment). So, I do know where he's coming from, but I also know that I internalize my anger more. As I've gotten older, I've learned to channel big anger (over social injustices) into an activist life. I just don't know how to transfer those lessons to DS.

In his mind, today, she asked if he wanted his cake broken. He said no. She broke it. That shouldn't have happened. And, he is right, but what's done is done. If he'd broken the cake accidentally, he would've been fine with me eating his piece and letting him get a new one. It was just that he kept yelling, "but she didn't listen to me! She broke my cake!" He did this once because he asked DH to cut his pancakes. DH said okay, just a second. He was taking his insulin at the time. MIL reached over and cut DS' pancakes. He told her no, he wanted Dad to but she didn't listen. He wouldn't eat because he asked his dad. His dad said yes. He told MIL not to cut them. To him there is no wavering from his position.

I don't know how to explain that sometimes your position is right but the reaction needs to be controlled. Nor do I know how to explain that sometimes we do have to move on when what we wanted didn't happen and cannot be corrected.


How old is your son? If he's looking for a partner who totally "gets" him, I'll give him my daughter Katie's number when the time comes.







She is very specific about who is allowed to cut her pancakes (and it changes from breakfast to breakfast) and will go absolutely insane with anger if the wrong person does it. She also wants to determine who drives the car when we go somewhere, and things like that, and heaven forbid the "wrong" person gets in that driver's seat.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My daughter was like that too. I read somewhere, and I can't remember where, that one of the things kids learn through tantrums is the concept of futility. That no matter how upset we get with how things are and how much we'd like them to be different, and how much other people would like things to be different, some things can't be changed. Like once the cake was broken in two, it couldn't be changed back. It was over and there was no way to undo it. So he hasn't learned the concept of futility yet - that no matter how much he wishes that it hadn't been done, and no matter how much you wish you could help him change the way things are, it's all over and there's no way around it. He will get it eventually.

And I don't know if there is a good way to handle a meltdown except to muddle through and try to get to the other side with everyone involved relatively unscathed. And wait for the meltdown stage to be outgrown. Over the past two to three years, my dd will occasionally still have a meltdown if she's sick, but it's been at least a year since that's even happened. She's 7 now.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

My critique--you should give yourself a big hand for keeping your cool. MY DD (4) had a similar tantrum last week and I just lost it. I am still reeling from the shame and embarassment of my reaction. Not the mom I want to be, ever.

I've been talking to her a lot since then about taking deep breaths before she starts screaming and I've been looking for new books and techniques to help her calm down. I've been trying to tell her when she's calm, that it's ok to be angry, and she can tell me that she doesn't want something/what's wrong--but by speaking to me, not by screaming, hitting, and kicking. We had a family meeting where we specifically addressed the hitting and kicking, because even though I know tantrums are normal, I really wanted to particularly address the physical stuff--to me that is what tips it over into something that I can't handle.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

It sounds like you handled it well, IMO. Like a PP was saying, I've read to about learning futility - perhaps pointing out the futility of it might help make the tantrum stage shorter? It's hard, and I get his frustration. I don't like it when people ask false questions.

Tjej


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

We've been going through this too.

What we finally decided is to go with whether or not the child's request/freakout of a 3rd party is "reasonable" on a global scale. (It's actually alot nicer and more fair than it sounds).

In the case of the cake, you can't undo it. We will offer acceptable and reasonable alternatives. So if it's possible to get a full piece of cake (like they aren't being cut in half so that there's enough) we will offer that. So her choices become cake or no cake. Throwing a fit isn't an option. If the option (like it's the last piece) is the broken cake or no cake, we offer that. We will offer a chance to calm down and then represent the options. But we won't spend our entire day on it. (DD is 3 and can throw epic hour+ long tantrums because she has a VERY hard time moving on from something that hurt her).

If she isn't willing/able to calm down (we can tell if she's trying or if she's past that) then we leave. We've had to leave alot of things recently. But we just go. We try to smile at the other people and stay calm and just get out of there. We don't offer things like walking unless she asks. Then it's a 1 chance kind of deal.

With the pancake. We've had to institute a "nearest adult" rule. For us that's reasonable. There are often alot of adults around and it was getting ridiculous and confusing when she'd ask 4 different people to do 4 different things and freak out when people didn't do what she told them. We will cater to it much more if it's just DH and I around. But if there are other people, then it's the first one who can do it does it. If she doesn't like it, that's her deal. We'll help her and give her tools to deal with her disappointment, but we're not going to have everyone jumping all the time or walking on eggshells. To us, that's not reasonable.

I will say that it sounds like your son was really tired and needed a break. I don't think I would have stuck around for so long doing the in/out thing. When DD is done and needs to go, then we go. It's too hard for some kids to regain their equilibrium with the same stimuli going on.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
How old is your son? If he's looking for a partner who totally "gets" him, I'll give him my daughter Katie's number when the time comes.







She is very specific about who is allowed to cut her pancakes (and it changes from breakfast to breakfast) and will go absolutely insane with anger if the wrong person does it. She also wants to determine who drives the car when we go somewhere, and things like that, and heaven forbid the "wrong" person gets in that driver's seat.

LOL. I thought it was only my kid who did the whole mini-dictator about who is going to drive thing!! He will go absolutely ballistic if the "wrong" person gets in the driver's seat!

Anyway, for the OP, I think you handled the situation well. And I just want to say thank you for posting this. It really helps me to know that I'm not the only person in the world with a very rigid child (sometimes).


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
We've been going through this too.

What we finally decided is to go with whether or not the child's request/freakout of a 3rd party is "reasonable" on a global scale. (It's actually alot nicer and more fair than it sounds).

In the case of the cake, you can't undo it. We will offer acceptable and reasonable alternatives. So if it's possible to get a full piece of cake (like they aren't being cut in half so that there's enough) we will offer that. So her choices become cake or no cake. Throwing a fit isn't an option. If the option (like it's the last piece) is the broken cake or no cake, we offer that. We will offer a chance to calm down and then represent the options. But we won't spend our entire day on it. (DD is 3 and can throw epic hour+ long tantrums because she has a VERY hard time moving on from something that hurt her).

If she isn't willing/able to calm down (we can tell if she's trying or if she's past that) then we leave. We've had to leave alot of things recently. But we just go. We try to smile at the other people and stay calm and just get out of there. We don't offer things like walking unless she asks. Then it's a 1 chance kind of deal.

With the pancake. We've had to institute a "nearest adult" rule. For us that's reasonable. There are often alot of adults around and it was getting ridiculous and confusing when she'd ask 4 different people to do 4 different things and freak out when people didn't do what she told them. We will cater to it much more if it's just DH and I around. But if there are other people, then it's the first one who can do it does it. If she doesn't like it, that's her deal. We'll help her and give her tools to deal with her disappointment, but we're not going to have everyone jumping all the time or walking on eggshells. To us, that's not reasonable.

I will say that it sounds like your son was really tired and needed a break. I don't think I would have stuck around for so long doing the in/out thing. When DD is done and needs to go, then we go. It's too hard for some kids to regain their equilibrium with the same stimuli going on.

Intuitively, we have learned to do something very similar with DS. He, too, (like most 3 yr olds?) has a tendency to want it his way. And, he has an exaggerated sense of justice. His view point, his truth is the only right one. Life and society isn't like that, and I see it as our responsibility to teach him how to navigate interpersonal relationships well enough to see others perspectives, flexibly adapt to new realities, and accept what can't be changed.

Sometimes we accommodate him, for example, with which parent helps to get him ready for bed. But, we also talk to him a great deal about the grey in life. Once the crayon is broken, it's broken. And, I am a meanie, and I actually won't buy him a new one. If the cake was broken, I wouldn't have switched.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think you did fine. I would have picked him up and left the first time he resumed the screaming though--I gave ds one reminder to calm down. If he kept it up he was picked up and taking home without another word said. Yes, it made him furious in the short term. Yes, he screamed harder and kicked and cried. But he was doing that anyway. In the long term, he was able to calm down with the first reminder and enjoyed outings and experiences more because he was not falling apart as fast over the little stuff. For whatever reason, ds had much better self control when my response to tantrums were swift and non-negotiable (I was calm, just matter of fact and not swayed by further hysterics).


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## Eeyore35 (Aug 2, 2009)

well,I don't drive,so I can't cater to my daughter and just leave when she throws a fit. we'd have to wait for a bus,or bother someone for a ride..so yeah,she has to deal.

My daughter has stuff like your son does that bugs her. I accomodate her when I can. When I can't,she has to deal. In that case,if she refused the deal to get new cake,I"d have said fine,then a no cake. If she calmed down,I"d let her have cake. If not,she'd be taken out until she calmed down. Depending why she was acting out,I might have taken her to the batroom,and talked ot her til she calmed down. If she was overtired,she could just freak out there til she calmed down. If she was just being defiant,well,she'd be sitting in timeout being ignored until she calmed down. Very rarely takes more than a few minutes.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

For the people with kids who insist on who drives, do you give in to that? At what point is the kid the one who calls the shots, and at what point do you so, No, Daddy is driving today, and that is an adult decision to be made, sorry, it is not your call.

OP, I think you definitely handled it perfectly. You showed your child that you can have alternatives, and if you don't want the alternatives, then you go home to recoup. Freaking out is not acceptable and not going to fix the broken cake.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I'm guessing your son is 3, maybe 4. My DD had the hardest time with that kind of stuff at that age. It has gotten better, but it seemed like such a slow process.

I think you did great. What else could you have done?

I get that some people see catering to a sensitive child as a little indulgent. Yeah, to us the issue that the child is melting down over seems trivial, but to the child it's not. I see it as my job as the parent of a small child that is struggling to try to keep the frustration to a minimum, so if I can accommodate I do. A frustrated, screaming child is no longer learning and making progress toward coping with their own unique quirks.

The PP about making reasonable accommodations was right on in my opinion.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I get that some people see catering to a sensitive child as a little indulgent. Yeah, to us the issue that the child is melting down over seems trivial, but to the child it's not. I see it as my job as the parent of a small child that is struggling to try to keep the frustration to a minimum, so if I can accommodate I do. A frustrated, screaming child is no longer learning and making progress toward coping with their own unique quirks.

This is a great perspective, although I don't agree. I see a parent's job as not to minimize sources of frustration, but to model and guide a child to learn to deal with sources of frustration. Of course, I don't try to set my kid up for failure, and for most situations it means we avoid large crowds, unreasonable social expectations, noisy groups, etc. With my kids, I actually wouldn't even take them to a church social, but OP's kid must typically hold it together there.

It doesn't mean I accommodate unreasonable requests. For the broken cake, *someone* has to either eat the broken piece or it is wasted. Why should the OP have to eat it? Instead of dwelling on why the woman cutting the cake "broke it" when she shouldn't have, it probably would help her son if (once he was calm, even if hours later) they talked about possible solutions going forward. It can't be unbroken. The choice is broken cake or no cake. Or ask nicely to trade with someone who doesn't care. It isn't meltdown = no cake.

The reality is that the OP's kid makes mistakes, too. I wouldn't think the OP fixes for him or ignores those either. Instead, she probably encourages him to apologize and make amends as possible. When someone else makes a mistake, it should be handled similarly. The LO could explain why he was upset to the cake cutting woman and ask for an apology. Learning to treat others with forgiveness and tolerance is a really important lesson and accommodating a child who insists they are right without finding a way to move forward doesn't work.

Another family rule that really helps us is "you NEVER get your way when you whine, cry or fuss." No second chances. It sounds harsh, but when we experiment every few months with letting the kids calm down and ask again, it just doesn't work. Their meltdowns are usually a sign that they are hungry, stressed or tired, not that the small slight is actually a big deal. So, we bail.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
With my kids, I actually wouldn't even take them to a church social, but OP's kid must typically hold it together there.

Yes, he's normally fine there. A friend of ours planned a day of the dead service/celebration, and it was intergenerational. The kids were pretty involved with the service. DS said later that he "loved" it, but I think that on top of the social part was too much. The kicker was that we were going to a pumpkin patch as a group later, but we had a special deal and had to wait until 6:00 to go. We were all just killing time until then, which was another thing for DS - he was hyped up about the prospect of going on a hayride.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
It doesn't mean I accommodate unreasonable requests. For the broken cake, *someone* has to either eat the broken piece or it is wasted. Why should the OP have to eat it? Instead of dwelling on why the woman cutting the cake "broke it" when she shouldn't have, it probably would help her son if (once he was calm, even if hours later) they talked about possible solutions going forward. It can't be unbroken. The choice is broken cake or no cake. Or ask nicely to trade with someone who doesn't care. It isn't meltdown = no cake.

Well, I'll eat the cake because I don't care if it's broken or not. I was going to eat a piece anyway, so it wasn't a big deal to me to switch. Sometimes we have had to say "it tastes the same. There's no other option." That's usually if something accidentally breaks. His tantrum wasn't over the cake (which I don't think I made clear). It was over being asked something and then ignored when he responded.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
The LO could explain why he was upset to the cake cutting woman and ask for an apology.

She was totally unapologetic. She's one of those "they're children, and they don't get a say" people (and she's a teacher!). I think that pissed DS off more than anything, that she was just kind of like "well, tough." I had to walk out because *I* wanted to bite her head off for the whole situation. I know a lot of kids (people in general) are okay with the insincere question, but neither DS nor I are. I know he will be upset by other people, but when I feel they've deliberately done something, then it upsets me.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
For the people with kids who insist on who drives, do you give in to that?

DS does this as well. He wants to dictate every moment of our lives. We sometimes say "you can choose today." That's usually if we're just hopping over to a soccer match where it doesn't matter, but other times, yes we say "Daddy's driving because Mommy needs to read for class while we're driving." He's learning to be okay with there being reasons for what is going on, and I think that's his concern more than anything. He has a need to know why we're doing whatever it is. He's anti-randomness!

So, the gist is we shouldn't have given him as many options to calm down, but otherwise we did okay. It's frustrating to feel we're the only people we know who go through this. I know other families without a child who's this rigid. DD isn't, but DS just gets something in his mind and refuses to let it go.

For those of you who say "they just have to deal," I don't understand that. DH and I were in marriage counseling briefly before we realized it wasn't what we needed, but DS came up a lot. I was talking about a tantrum that ended when he darted out into the street. I had to grab him and stuff him in the car, and in the process, he smacked me pretty hard. Our therapist said, "that is not acceptable. I would tell him that." Well, yeah, I did, but that doesn't mean he just stopped. We had to talk about it later, and I'm not sure it won't ever happen again. Are other children that obedient/fearful/uninspired that one stern warning works forever? If I said to DS, "just deal with it," then he would freak out more. That would piss him off. If I put him in time-out and ignored him (which I don't do, but still...) as someone said, he would be enraged. Plus no one at church would have a good time with him screaming like that. I'm rambling, but I really don't get it when people say "just" do whatever as if there's a magic wand I don't have.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

I am still curious to know how old your son is







.

I think his age plays a role in how I'd handle the situation. A three year old who gets upset about broken cake = age appropriate behavior that can involve some negotiation and second and third chances to calm down and rejoin the group.

A 6 or 7 or 8 year old who cannot cope with broken cake is a whole 'nother ball of wax, IMO. By the time they're that age I would indeed expect that they'd just "deal" and not cause a scene.

And I don't agree that the woman cutting the cake should be *asked* to apologize. If she was cutting cake for a bunch of people she was probably distracted and overwhelmed with requests, and doing the best she could. Even as a parent of young (sometimes uncooperative) children, I'd be flabbergasted if a parent or child requested an apology for being served a broken piece of cake.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, serial postings.

I know someone mentioned breathing, which we've started working on with him. I've started doing meditation with him, and we do deep breaths, count to 10, that sort of thing. It does help in some situations (if we can remind him early enough). He's not yet at the point of remembering to do it in the heat of the moment. He has a lightning hot temper, and he gets upset pretty quickly. And he's 4. This has gotten better. At 2, we were dealing with multiple meltdowns a day, but now it's much less frequent.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
And, he has an exaggerated sense of justice. His view point, his truth is the only right one. Life and society isn't like that, and I see it as our responsibility to teach him how to navigate interpersonal relationships well enough to see others perspectives, flexibly adapt to new realities, and accept what can't be changed.

I will have to think about this because I think perhaps my own personality/view is getting in the way of dealing effectively with DS. My husband holds a position closer to yours. We've discussed it many times - and long before kids. I don't. I still to this day have an "exaggerated sense of justice." Most of life is very black and white for me; most moral choices are clear. If something isn't, then I research until I make a decision. It's served me very well in my work. My first "activist" project was when I was 16 or so, and I've continued to do that since then. I've faced significant repercussions - the ending of relationships, threats of bodily harm, ostracism, all manner of slurs lobbed at me, the exhaustion/physical toll activist work takes - and I think being so clear on my sense of justice is why I can tolerate it.

I'm also an abuse survivor, and the same sense of justice has helped me to know without question that my abusers were wrong (struggling with this issue is a major stumbling block in recovery for a lot of abuse victims).

So when I look at DS, I see myself. I don't know how to translate what I've learned in 29 years about seeing the world this way, but it's very hard for me to imagine teaching him that the world isn't the way he sees it, despite the pain it's caused me.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3*is*magic* 
And I don't agree that the woman cutting the cake should be *asked* to apologize. If she was cutting cake for a bunch of people she was probably distracted and overwhelmed with requests, and doing the best she could. Even as a parent of young (sometimes uncooperative) children, I'd be flabbergasted if a parent or child requested an apology for being served a broken piece of cake.

We didn't ask her to apologize. I feel weird about that because I think apologies should be sincere and uninitiated from the person who's upset. There were 3 children who had cake, and she came over to them to ask if they wanted their cake broken in half. DS said no, but she broke it anyway. I don't know what the other 2 boys said. To tell you the truth, I don't even know why the heck she was breaking the cake. It was a single piece that was maybe 3 inches by 3 inches, 1/2-inch thick. We're not talking about a huge chunk of cake here, ya know? And he's 4. He's perfectly capable of holding his own piece of cake.

DH did talk to him afterward about it. He said that she asked, but he said no. He kept saying "that wasn't nice. Why did she ask if she was just going to ignore me? I said "no" loud." DH tried to explain that sometimes people do things we don't like, and we have to make a decision about how to respond. (I cannot tell you the number of times my mother asked me "is this going to matter next week?" as a kid...still, really.)


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

have you ever considered having him evaluated for ASD?


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## mamalisa (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
We didn't ask her to apologize. I feel weird about that because I think apologies should be sincere and uninitiated from the person who's upset. There were 3 children who had cake, and she came over to them to ask if they wanted their cake broken in half. DS said no, but she broke it anyway. I don't know what the other 2 boys said. To tell you the truth, I don't even know why the heck she was breaking the cake. It was a single piece that was maybe 3 inches by 3 inches, 1/2-inch thick. We're not talking about a huge chunk of cake here, ya know? And he's 4. He's perfectly capable of holding his own piece of cake.

DH did talk to him afterward about it. He said that she asked, but he said no. He kept saying "that wasn't nice. Why did she ask if she was just going to ignore me? I said "no" loud." DH tried to explain that sometimes people do things we don't like, and we have to make a decision about how to respond. (I cannot tell you the number of times my mother asked me "is this going to matter next week?" as a kid...still, really.)

I think it's a normal 4 year old thing to freak out if something is "out of sorts". I think feeling disregarded is an awful feeling, regardless of how old you are. I hate when I'm ignored, but I have the verbal skills and self control to know A) how to respond and B) how to know when it matters and when it doesn't. 4 year olds don't know how to do that. Something we do with dd, who gets very upset if things aren't "right" is to just ask her to let it go. Yes, you are right, yes, we didn't do it the way you wanted, we're sorry, but you need to let it go now. You can be mad, but you need to be quiet about it. It seems to work for her, unless she's really really angry.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2maya* 
have you ever considered having him evaluated for ASD?

We had him evaluated this summer with mixed results. So many people have mentioned Aspergers' to us, and we have looked at it. I'm not entirely sure it doesn't fit.

The psych who saw him mostly looked for adhd, which we knew he didn't fit. He also evaluated him for sensory issues, which he doesn't have. He is gifted, and apparently his language skills are farther ahead than we'd thought. The eval said he was about average for an 8YO on most of his tests. Emotionally he's 4, which makes it really, really hard to balance because he gets so angry if he thinks you're treating him "like a baby," but he *is* still a preschooler. He just doesn't know it!


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Well, I'll eat the cake because I don't care if it's broken or not. I was going to eat a piece anyway, so it wasn't a big deal to me to switch. Sometimes we have had to say "it tastes the same. There's no other option."

There is a difference between 1) him asking you nicely to trade and you agreeing because you don't care and 2) him freaking out and you appeasing him by offering to trade. In the first, he learns to find a socially acceptable solution. In the second, he learns that freaking out = mommy makes everything right, and I am uniquely entitled to not suffer the consequences of someones mistake/misjudgment/random accident.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
That's usually if something accidentally breaks. His tantrum wasn't over the cake (which I don't think I made clear). It was over being asked something and then ignored when he responded.

Actually, I did understand this; you were clear. I just disagree. Ultimately, it is cake. Whether the woman cutting the cake was having a bad day, believes children should be seen and not heard, didn't process his response quickly enough to stop her self -- none of it really matters. She didn't injure him. She didn't abuse him. It happened. It is cake.

No matter what the cause, your son has a choice on his response and only his response. He can't control the other woman. If he felt slighted, he could have tried to explain his position. He could chose to take a deep breath and move on. He could have vented to you. He could have chosen to forgo cake altogether, trade with you, whatever. Choosing to meltdown is not an appropriate option. This is the part of the important lesson you have to teach your son. And, for the most part, he will probably learn this from how you have chosen to respond.

By justifying and defending his logic, you are in essence justifying -- even if unintentionally -- his meltdown. No matter the cause, he can't meltdown.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
She was totally unapologetic. She's one of those "they're children, and they don't get a say" people (and she's a teacher!). I think that pissed DS off more than anything, that she was just kind of like "well, tough." I had to walk out because *I* wanted to bite her head off for the whole situation. I know a lot of kids (people in general) are okay with the insincere question, but neither DS nor I are. I know he will be upset by other people, but when I feel they've deliberately done something, then it upsets me.

This actually could be a great opportunity to discuss your perceptions with your son, which you may even have done. Modeling is key in this situation: "Oh, she ticked me off. That was not nice to offer an option and then not listen. Oh well, it is just cake. Let's go sit by the window and watch the ducks while we eat our yummy cake."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
DS does this as well. He wants to dictate every moment of our lives. We sometimes say "you can choose today." That's usually if we're just hopping over to a soccer match where it doesn't matter, but other times, yes we say "Daddy's driving because Mommy needs to read for class while we're driving." He's learning to be okay with there being reasons for what is going on, and I think that's his concern more than anything. He has a need to know why we're doing whatever it is. He's anti-randomness!

This is fairly common among the preschool-set. Giving him an explanation instead of letting him dictate is great. You are probably dead on in that he wants an explanation and his world to be ordered rather than to actually control what is going on.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
For those of you who say "they just have to deal," I don't understand that. DH and I were in marriage counseling briefly before we realized it wasn't what we needed, but DS came up a lot. I was talking about a tantrum that ended when he darted out into the street. I had to grab him and stuff him in the car, and in the process, he smacked me pretty hard. Our therapist said, "that is not acceptable. I would tell him that." Well, yeah, I did, but that doesn't mean he just stopped. We had to talk about it later, and I'm not sure it won't ever happen again. Are other children that obedient/fearful/uninspired that one stern warning works forever? If I said to DS, "just deal with it," then he would freak out more. That would piss him off. If I put him in time-out and ignored him (which I don't do, but still...) as someone said, he would be enraged. Plus no one at church would have a good time with him screaming like that. I'm rambling, but I really don't get it when people say "just" do whatever as if there's a magic wand I don't have.

I'm not sure if you are referring to my pp or other's, but I can offer another perspective. The "just deal" response is that no one person gets to dictate life for a family, group or even another individual. Sometimes things don't go the way we want. Accepting that is HUGE to being able to get along with others. In your example above, I think you handled his physical outburst well. After you got home, you could go over with him his alternatives (he can stomp his feet with mad, shout, say "I am angry", whatever), and it sounds like you did. Then the next time you see him heading toward a meltdown, you could repeat some of those coping options, but realistically, for some explosive kids it will take tons of repetition. Ask me how I know.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *3*is*magic* 
And I don't agree that the woman cutting the cake should be *asked* to apologize. If she was cutting cake for a bunch of people she was probably distracted and overwhelmed with requests, and doing the best she could. Even as a parent of young (sometimes uncooperative) children, I'd be flabbergasted if a parent or child requested an apology for being served a broken piece of cake.

ITU where you are coming from, but also recognizing how distressed the OP's LO was about being not heard the idea of explaining his position to the woman might be enough for him to recenter himself. Yes it is cake, but to him he felt slighted. Verbally communicating that he didn't appreciate her cutting the cake after he responded might help him feel less slighted. And, I would see it as practice in standing up for himself.

That said, in similar situations, it has actually be enough for my DS to just talk about how he *wished* he had responded. Just imagining it has been enough for him to then let it go, decide it actually isn't that important (i.e. he still has cake to enjoy), and move on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I will have to think about this because I think perhaps my own personality/view is getting in the way of dealing effectively with DS. My husband holds a position closer to yours. We've discussed it many times - and long before kids. I don't. I still to this day have an "exaggerated sense of justice." Most of life is very black and white for me; most moral choices are clear. If something isn't, then I research until I make a decision.

I would agree with your assessment that your DS likely has a confluence of factors supporting his current behaviors: temperament, your modeling, and developmental understanding of the world. And, your world view is coloring what he understands to be an appropriate response.

ITA, too, that most moral choices are a dichotomy. Most things are either right or wrong.

But, and this is a huge caveat, some things just aren't important enough to fight for without EVERYTHING being a fight. Some slights are just as insignificant as cake. Helping your child to distinguish and cope with the small stuff is an important job of being a parent. There is actually some pretty cool research about teaching executive function to preschoolers and how it helps them cope later in life.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
It's served me very well in my work. My first "activist" project was when I was 16 or so, and I've continued to do that since then. I've faced significant repercussions - the ending of relationships, threats of bodily harm, ostracism, all manner of slurs lobbed at me, the exhaustion/physical toll activist work takes - and I think being so clear on my sense of justice is why I can tolerate it.

You have chosen -- at obviously great cost -- to stand up for what you believe. Important causes, I am sure. And surely your DS will admire you for your activist work.

Most daily interactions -- even when someone else didn't do the "right" thing from your perspective -- aren't equivalent to human rights abuses. They don't deserve the same energy and time. And, it can be draining to all whom one interacts with to go through an extensive process of totally hearing their side, seeking common ground, identifying acceptable solutions, i.e. conflict negotiation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I'm also an abuse survivor, and the same sense of justice has helped me to know without question that my abusers were wrong (struggling with this issue is a major stumbling block in recovery for a lot of abuse victims).

So when I look at DS, I see myself. I don't know how to translate what I've learned in 29 years about seeing the world this way, but it's very hard for me to imagine teaching him that the world isn't the way he sees it, despite the pain it's caused me.

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Why would you want to teach him the world is different than how he sees it? How do you think he sees it? Are you saying you feel an obligation to (or that I am suggesting you) teach him there is not a moral right and wrong? Do you seek to shelter him from the consequences (good or bad) of taking a moral stand?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This, I disagree with:

Quote:

Actually, I did understand this; you were clear. I just disagree. Ultimately, it is cake. Whether the woman cutting the cake was having a bad day, believes children should be seen and not heard, didn't process his response quickly enough to stop her self -- none of it really matters. She didn't injure him. She didn't abuse him. It happened. It is cake.

No matter what the cause, your son has a choice on his response and only his response. He can't control the other woman. If he felt slighted, he could have tried to explain his position. He could chose to take a deep breath and move on. He could have vented to you. He could have chosen to forgo cake altogether, trade with you, whatever. Choosing to meltdown is not an appropriate option. This is the part of the important lesson you have to teach your son. And, for the most part, he will probably learn this from how you have chosen to respond.

By justifying and defending his logic, you are in essence justifying -- even if unintentionally -- his meltdown. No matter the cause, he can't meltdown.

First, he obviously can have a meltdown, because he did. And it's still normal at 4. Tantrums are normal and children learn through them. He hasn't learned the lesson that they have to teach him. IMO, the answer is to help him learn that lesson, not to simply tell him his emotions are not allowed.

Maybe saying, "I wish your cake hadn't been broken, too." So he understands that no one can change that, would help. But maybe time and experience are the only things that will help him.

But to say it isn't appropriate isn't fair, IMO. He isn't an adult who behaves "appropriately" according to adult rules. He's a young child who is still learning. It isn't simply a case of getting him to stop. It's a case of getting him through it and to the other end.

I don't care how little a deal it is to us as adults. To him, it's proof that the world doesn't always go the way we want. He just needs help understanding that. It isn't an easy lesson to learn, and it isn't his fault he wasn't born knowing that.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

Ahh. Apparenty, I am the one who wasn't clear.









ITA with the idea of acknowledging his emotions and helping a LO work though whatever emotions are triggering the meltdown. He is certainly entitled to them and to express them.

However, meltdowns in public places aren't ok. In our family, if you need to meltdown, we remove ourselves, to the car, to the hall, home, whatever. It isn't ok to subject other adults or children to a screaming, thrashing on the floor child. And, a meltdown typically means we end whatever fun activity we were doing.

Umm, yes. He "can" have a meltdown.







Maybe, I was more clear earlier in the post. Chosing to meltdown isn't an appropriate option. Not at 4. Not even at 2. Is it age appropriate, sure! Does it happen? All the time. But is it socially appropriate and something that should be exempt from consequences? IMO, no.

My kids meltdown all the time, even DS at almost 4. My point was more about offering alternative, socially acceptable options, and if they aren't taken, removing the child. And teaching the child to navigate a fairly complex moral and social world.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i think you handled the situation just fine. in hindsight, we can always do things better, but given the situation - you remained very calm & got through it. sometimes that's all you can really do with tantrums....just get through it. hugs.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

I have to completely disagree that the woman should have apologized.

I don't think that anyone, child or adult, having an extreme reaction to a benign action should warrant an apology. I refused to be bullied, physically or emotionally, by other people.

I think that there was no actual harm done by breaking your son's cake. It's cake. It's not diminished in any way by being broken. And the woman probably thought she was being helpful. It's NOT her problem.

That means it's your son's choice how he chooses to respond. We're working on this with DD right now. She doesn't want the broken crackers. But we're not going to keep going past the broken ones (and a tiny missing corner is considered "broken" to her) and then throw out half the package. And none of the rest of us like crackers. So if she wants crackers she gets the top two. It's her choice if she wants to eat them or not. But she's not getting more until they are gone.

I would focus more on teaching your son that he can't control what other people do. If he doesn't learn that he's in for a very rough road. My DD is really struggling with this. She tried to tell other kids what they can/cannot play with and then melts down when they do what they want. It's so hard for her. But, I wouldn't expect the other kids (or adults) to change what they are doing to suit her demands. What she needs to learn is that she can control what she does, not what anyone else does. She can't stop the little boy at daycare from putting a toy car in the play kitchen microwave (apparently she cried for close to 30 minutes about that yesterday). And it doesn't matter how many times she nicely asks him not to put the car in. It's NOT reasonable.

I would think that switching the focus onto your son and off that woman would probably help the most in the long run. I would run through what _he_ could have done given the situation. What were his options that he could control. He could have said no thank you to that piece of cake and asked for a whole one. He could have eaten the cake like the other kids. He could have decided that he didn't want cake. He could have asked you to trade pieces of cake. He can't control what the other woman does. If she's breaking cake for kids, then there isn't any way for him to stop her. That sucks. It really does. But it's how life works. The only person he can control is him. It's very empowering to figure that out.


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## mild_adventurer (Jun 2, 2008)

JL83 said:


> I have to completely disagree that the woman should have apologized.
> 
> I don't think that anyone, child or adult, having an extreme reaction to a benign action should warrant an apology. I refused to be bullied, physically or emotionally, by other people.
> 
> ...


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I don't think that anyone, child or adult, having an extreme reaction to a benign action should warrant an apology. I refused to be bullied, physically or emotionally, by other people.

As I said before, I won't ask someone else to apologize, but I don't see how it would be bullying if he did - or if I said "he's crying because you asked him and then ignored his answer," which was what I wanted to do. Whatever the appropriateness of his response, she was the one who was wrong in the initial situation. That's not in question to me.

I would think she was being helpful except that she asked. He said no. Why the hell do it anyway? It's because many adults do not care what children want or think, which is wrong. "A person's a person no matter how small" and all that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
That means it's your son's choice how he chooses to respond.

I know that's a lesson he has to learn, though in all fairness I know very few *adults* who've learned it. How many times at MDC do we see threads about someone who's raving mad because her MIL said something slightly offensive? I know with my own mother, it's taken a lot to accept the idea that I know who she is, and my reaction is my responsibility. It is tough, but it's not a lesson I think any preschooler has mastered. We are working on it, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I would think that switching the focus onto your son and off that woman would probably help the most in the long run. I would run through what _he_ could have done given the situation. What were his options that he could control. He could have said no thank you to that piece of cake and asked for a whole one. He could have eaten the cake like the other kids. He could have decided that he didn't want cake. He could have asked you to trade pieces of cake. He can't control what the other woman does. If she's breaking cake for kids, then there isn't any way for him to stop her. That sucks. It really does. But it's how life works. The only person he can control is him. It's very empowering to figure that out.

We haven't focused on the woman at home; it's just come up in the thread. His explanations all involved the woman and him asking repeatedly why she didn't listen to him. DH and I have both told him that some people just don't listen, and we're not sure why. I don't know why. I can speculate based on conversations I've had with her, but I don't know at that moment why she didn't listen. It's not like I think DS can ask her because then that would make her feel overly defensive about something that isn't that big of an issue in the long-term.

As for options, no, choosing another piece of cake and leaving that one isn't an option. Wasting food is not an option in our family, and DS knows that, which is why he panics if his food isn't like he likes it. None of the other kids ate the freakin' cake. They all played with theirs, and one of the adults ended up tossing their plates. (FTR, I don't like DC getting food without me, but DH and I were helping fold chairs. I didn't realize the food was out and ready to go, and stemming the tide when all of the other children are allowed to serve themselves has proven difficult.)

I'm not sure I believe there's nothing you can do in future situations. DS could speak up more loudly. He could say something more forceful. We could hang a sign on him that says "please don't try to help without asking." Seriously, DH said he's sometimes tempted to do that with him. He's so particular with every little thing in life that people randomly doing things to/for him without his permission really unhinges him.

To me, food falls into the same category as body. We were chastised when he was smaller because people would ruffle his curly hair. He *hated* it and would yell at them to stop. Your food's the same in that it's your personal item that will go into your mouth. Get your grubby hands off someone else's food, for Pete's sake. I mean, did she wash her hands? Does she pick her nose? I have no idea, and I'm not big on other people touching something I'm about to eat either. That's why I think no, cake is not a life's right. It's no big deal. OTOH, the action of asking/ignoring and then touching someone's food is a bigger thing. DS reconizes this as well, so how do you say a) yes you are right (in that her actions were inappropriate) but b) your reaction is wrong.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
As I said before, I won't ask someone else to apologize, but I don't see how it would be bullying if he did - or if I said "he's crying because you asked him and then ignored his answer," which was what I wanted to do. Whatever the appropriateness of his response, she was the one who was wrong in the initial situation. That's not in question to me.

Because that's trying to make her responsible for his response. It's a normal reaction. When people make my DD cry (often while trying to be friendly) I want to tell them off. But they didn't do it on purpose, so why should they be responsible because my DD happens to be extra super sensitive to some things?

We've come up against this a bunch lately. A mom at daycare saw me "discussing" putting on DD's coat. She tried to help and told DD that she should put on her coat because it was cold out. She was trying to help. She had no way of know that I would spend the next 10 minutes holding a sobbing DD (I'm pregnant and can't carry her). It wasn't her fault. Most kids wouldn't have reacted that way.

Quote:

I would think she was being helpful except that she asked. He said no. *Why the hell do it anyway?* It's because many adults do not care what children want or think, which is wrong. "A person's a person no matter how small" and all that.
I'm going to guess she was on auto-pilot and was in a rhythm of breaking the kid's cake. You say she's asked the other kids and they'd all said yes, so I'm going to guess it was reflex.

Was it right? No. Should everyone be more thoughtful and caring and attentive to little details? Yes! Is that realistic??? I don't think it is.

I spent alot of my childhood in various stages of being upset by people not meeting my expectations. It wasn't very pleasant. I had crappy parents who didn't notice/care how stressed and upset I was most of the time (they would just spank me when we were out and tell me to behave or send me to my room when we were at home).

I don't want my child to live trying to be in control over what other people do. The only person she can control is her. And we are doing everything we can to help her learn that fast. Because otherwise she'd going to be in for alot of pain in her life because you can't control other people.

I'm not advocating teaching your son to back down. I think it's valuable to teach him ways to try to prevent similar situations in the future. Teach him to use a "strong voice" and to be polite (because people do hear politeness).

But at some point a situation has happened, he needs to learn to let go and move on. Once the cake is broken, all the icing in the world isn't going to put it back together again. He can't change the past. He can learn to change the future, but he has to deal with the present.


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

I think you responded fine, at least similar to what I would do.

Have you ever read the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves? It explains exactly how to deal with these sorts of issues, exactly how to respond to tantrums.

I LOVE this book. Reading it has completely changed the way I deal with my DD when she's melting down, and as a result she has way less tantrums, or shorter tantrums, than she used to. (She's 3.)

My DD also would freak out if someone broke her cake in half. I would also offer to trade cake with her if I didn't have my plate yet. If she was still upset, which she probably would be, I would take her somewhere private and acknowledge her feelings--You're upset because the woman broke your cake after you asked her not to? And so on. I would give her a chance to cry about it or be angry about it, and then remind her we were going to be out of time to eat the cake. She might be too upset to go back in there if she really felt like an injustice had been committed, so I would offer to just take cake home with us to enjoy once she feels better, and not make a big deal out of it past that.

While it might not seem like a big deal to me, in her world someone disrespecting her AND damaging her perfect cake would probably be a huge catastrophe. I don't think it's right to ignore that. As she gets older it won't be such a huge deal, she will gradually learn to move on and roll her eyes or whatever.

If DD is overstimulated or overtired rather than just upset about the cake then we would probably leave and she would probably freak out the entire way home, but you know sometimes that just happens with kids. They learn to self-regulate over time, and it takes some kids longer than others to gain good control of themselves for a myriad of reasons.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm going to guess she was on auto-pilot and was in a rhythm of breaking the kid's cake. You say she's asked the other kids and they'd all said yes, so I'm going to guess it was reflex.


Yup.

And I'd be a big liar if I said that I am never in this mode. You said the woman is a teacher, so I would guess that she's frequently in this mode. There appears to have been nothing malicious in her intent. Perhaps she didn't even hear your son, but even if she did hear him, maybe she didn't process his request until it was too late.

I can tell you feel your son's frustration acutely, and I think this makes you the most wonderful mother he could have. But this really isn't about whether adults really listen to children, or respect them, or whatever. It's about helping your son learn to cope with small, everyday disappointments that he will encounter as a child _and_ as an adult, and IMO requesting an apology from a casual acquaintance for an indeliberate slight is not an appropriate coping mechanism.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3*is*magic* 
But this really isn't about whether adults really listen to children, or respect them, or whatever. It's about helping your son learn to cope with small, everyday disappointments that he will encounter as a child _and_ as an adult

My boss just handed me a printout of a document he was editing. I told him this morning that I had some changes that I wanted to make too, so if he just told me when he was done editing it, I'd make my changes before printing it because we're trying hard to cut WAY back on paper use in my office.

He went ahead and printed it. That bugs me, alot! It makes me feel like he didn't listen to anything I said this morning. It makes me feel like he doesn't respect the environmental concern.

But those are my feelings. I'm going to deal with them (probably roll my eyes and share with DH while making supper or as we're getting ready for bed) and get back to work.

He didn't listen to me. He didn't respect what I asked. But, that's his problem not mine. It wasn't a personal slight against me. He probably hit print without thinking about it.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

My mom told me a story that when a friend of hers came over to visit that friend told my mom "I refuse to play scrabble with a five year old..". She told me this story when I was pregnant. She said other people will never see your children the way you do.
So, that was twenty six years ago. I guess some things will never change.
I second what the other mother said, develop a habit of playing "I wish I had said..." with him after the fact, which is great practice for him being able to verbalize what's on his mind so that it will be there when he wants to say it, after enough practice. That game is a little old for four year olds, just introduce it gradually I guess.
Also it's a little early for my suggestion. But you mentioned that you channeled your anger into activism. Maybe you can get into volenteerism, like at a local food bank. The other volenteers will offer the respect and acceptance he craves for helping out. In all my childhood voulenteer activities the adult volenteers treated me as part of the team. I hope this post is taken as just an idea to consider in the future. I wouldn't say how to handle another situation. Sounded like you made a normal choice.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
I'm going to guess she was on auto-pilot and was in a rhythm of breaking the kid's cake. You say she's asked the other kids and they'd all said yes, so I'm going to guess it was reflex.

Maybe this is some of where I have a problem when I'm thinking back on it. I *never* ask my kids a question and don't wait/disregard the response. Ever. I wouldn't ask if I wasn't going to listen to what they had to say. It's actually scarier to me that she's a teacher and does this, particularly because she teaches special needs children.

I do ultimately agree with your point that he has to learn when something cannot be fixed and how to get over it. I wouldn't even mind if he ranted to me later. I do that a lot to DH. I get really angry about things that aren't a big deal in the scheme of things. My coping mechanism is to politely ignore people (I can't explain this, but I physically cannot speak if I'm angry and not sound like it) and then vent later to someone who will just let me gripe about it.

I want to teach this to DS, but I didn't really get it until I was an adult. I just wanted to point out that in other instances when something cannot be fixed (the pool's closed because of threatening rain, so we can't go swimming like we'd planned, for example), DS may get upset and is great at using his words to say how he feels. But he gets that it can't be changed, which is why I know this was about the woman and not the cake.

I suppose for me this is a tough/complicated lesson to learn, and I'm not sure we're doing it justice. Bringing things up later with him is iffy because sometimes that just starts the whole thing over again in his mind. He'll re-live it until he's really angry again, and I don't want to do that to him.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3*is*magic* 
and IMO requesting an apology from a casual acquaintance for an indeliberate slight is not an appropriate coping mechanism.

I didn't. I keep saying that, but it keeps coming up later. I didn't ask for an apology. I don't expect an apology. I don't think she's malicious, but I don't think she's kind/considerate/compassionate either. Truth be told I just wish people like that would leave my children alone so that I don't have to try to explain why an adult acted that way. I am abrupt, and I know that. Still I have enough of a filter to understand that my gut reaction when DS asks why someone did something like this isn't really going to be helpful to him.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Maybe this is some of where I have a problem when I'm thinking back on it. I *never* ask my kids a question and don't wait/disregard the response. Ever. I wouldn't ask if I wasn't going to listen to what they had to say. It's actually scarier to me that she's a teacher and does this, particularly because she teaches special needs children.

I know that I try very hard not to ask questions and then not listen to the answer. But, I've worked with alot of children and it does happen. I recognize that it sucks and I feel bad. But I have done things like add the chocolate syrup to all the bowls of icecream (last from the box) even though I know that one kid didn't want it.

I've also done it with adults. I remember pouring tea once and asking if the other mom wanted milk. She said she didn't but for some reason I added it anyway. I did apologize, and she politely drank the tea anyway (even though I offered to throw it out and make her more).

Quote:

I want to teach this to DS, but I didn't really get it until I was an adult. I just wanted to point out that in other instances when something cannot be fixed (the pool's closed because of threatening rain, so we can't go swimming like we'd planned, for example), DS may get upset and is great at using his words to say how he feels. But he gets that it can't be changed, which is why I know this was about the woman and not the cake.
It's easier with things that aren't alive. It's much harder to deal with disappointments caused by people.

The rules at the pool are the rules at the pool. Somehow that's easier to handle. And, I think he probably sees how you react to that and that you act like there's nothing that can be done.

But people are so much more variable. They aren't predictable in the same way.

My DD is all about being in control. She has a very hard time with people because she can't control them.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I didn't. I keep saying that, but it keeps coming up later. I didn't ask for an apology. I don't expect an apology. I don't think she's malicious, but I don't think she's kind/considerate/compassionate either. *Truth be told I just wish people like that would leave my children alone so that I don't have to try to explain why an adult acted that way.* I am abrupt, and I know that. Still I have enough of a filter to understand that my gut reaction when DS asks why someone did something like this isn't really going to be helpful to him.


That's the mama-bear reaction. Very understandable, but not very practical.

I have that reaction alot.

I try to split people into groups. There are people who I care about their relationship with DD. With those people I try hard to find a time to talk to them about things that set DD off. They are normally really receptive. I'm talking about people like the grandparents and our close friends. Then there are the other people who I don't really care about their long term relationship with DD. I'm having less of a problem being frank with DD about what they said/did.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I think you did fine. I would have picked him up and left the first time he resumed the screaming though--I gave ds one reminder to calm down. If he kept it up he was picked up and taking home without another word said. Yes, it made him furious in the short term. Yes, he screamed harder and kicked and cried. But he was doing that anyway. In the long term, he was able to calm down with the first reminder and enjoyed outings and experiences more because he was not falling apart as fast over the little stuff. For whatever reason, ds had much better self control when my response to tantrums were swift and non-negotiable (I was calm, just matter of fact and not swayed by further hysterics).

I really like this advice, and it's very similar to how I'd have handled it also.


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## 3*is*magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I didn't. I keep saying that, but it keeps coming up later. I didn't ask for an apology. I don't expect an apology. I don't think she's malicious, but I don't think she's kind/considerate/compassionate either. Truth be told I just wish people like that would leave my children alone so that I don't have to try to explain why an adult acted that way. I am abrupt, and I know that. Still I have enough of a filter to understand that my gut reaction when DS asks why someone did something like this isn't really going to be helpful to him.

I know you didn't. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

I would have removed him after one warning. Also the choice of the word 'broken' cake is odd to me. She cut the cake. It's just cake. It's not a big deal. To consider it an 'injustice' and a Really Important Issue is playing into his misperception. He is not interpreting the situation in a normal or healthy way (perhaps b/c he's 4. Perhaps b/c he has some issues). But IDK if you can do something to help reframe his impressions of everyday situations.

Here when DS obsesses about something I'll entertain it for a little while. Help to put it in a healthier context for him and then we're done. Distract, refuse, whatever. It's not healthy to talk about 'broken' cake for longer than a couple of minutes. Long enough to explain that it's not broken and that things don't go our way all the time.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
Also the choice of the word 'broken' cake is odd to me. She cut the cake.

No she didn't. She picked it up and broke it in half.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
No she didn't. She picked it up and broke it in half.

FWIW, that's how I have always eaten poundcake. It doesn't feel right to me to eat the whole piece at once.

I don't know the woman's motivation obviously, but I can identify with her. I have been known to put butter and jam on toast after I've been explicitly told (by ds) that he wanted jam only. He *never* eats butter, so I should know, but sometimes I do it wrong.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
We had this episode today, and I'm wondering what we should've done. *These types of episodes aren't uncommon*, but the details of this one are fresh.

If these kinds of meltdowns are happening a lot, especially over things that most other kids the same age wouldn't react so dramatically to, it might be well worth it to seek out a family therapist or a developmental pediatrician.

My son went several years having bad episodes like you describe, hours-long, nearly every day. The advice we got online, and from parenting books, simply wasn't effective with him. The thing we heard the most was "just ignore it and he'll stop." It simply didn't work that way. We ignored the tantrums to the best of our ability (preventing him from hurting himself or damaging anything) but he still melted down multiple times a day, every day. It was incredibly stressful. For a long time we were really stuck on "We must not be handling this right," because that was what we were hearing from everyone else -- that he "acts that way because you let him."

I personally don't think that kids develop that level of inflexibility and extreme over-reactions just because it's so much fun to stress themselves and everyone else out. Kids want to feel good, not bad. IMO at age 4 if this is happening with some frequency it's outside the range of typical. Whether it's that you're not "handling it right" or he's got some neurological difference, seeking out a professional opinion would probably be helpful.

We struggled with not knowing who to take DS to, when it was clear we needed professional help. If you're in the US, your local Early Intervention office should be able to refer you to the appropriate (free) evaluation. EI only serves up to age 3 but my understanding is the public school system then takes over. That's who it works where I live anyway. If you have good health insurance and your pediatrician doesn't blow you off (as ours did initially) requesting a referral directly to a developmental pediatrician is probably the most expedient approach.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
My son went several years having bad episodes like you describe, hours-long, nearly every day. The advice we got online, and from parenting books, simply wasn't effective with him. The thing we heard the most was "just ignore it and he'll stop." It simply didn't work that way. We ignored the tantrums to the best of our ability (preventing him from hurting himself or damaging anything) but he still melted down multiple times a day, every day. It was incredibly stressful. For a long time we were really stuck on "We must not be handling this right," because that was what we were hearing from everyone else -- that he "acts that way because you let him."

I personally don't think that kids develop that level of inflexibility and extreme over-reactions just because it's so much fun to stress themselves and everyone else out.

Yes! This has been our experience. I know we've gotten derailed here in the philosophical discussion of the woman's motivations, etc., which is fine for here, but my concern with DS is whether we're doing the right thing and how to handle it. You've also said what I asked about before but better. When people say "just ignore him" or "just say X" I really, truly don't get that. It does not work with DS to do that, and his rages can last extended periods of time. This one stopped after we got home because DH was able to get through to him that we understood what happened and we agreed with his position. I just feel a lot of posters (and people IRL) are making broad statements about how DS just has to learn that I don't think I'm capturing the ferocity of his rage. I've never in my life (and I've been around tons of children) seen rages like his - either in intensity or length. There are days when I'm just sobbing by day's end because I don't know what to do anymore.

I know we have a non-profit here that works to connect families with appropriate professionals, and I can contact them. There's a wonderful children's center an hour away, but we need a referral to get in. I don't know if we can get one from our family doc or not, but I may check.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Truth be told I just wish people like that would leave my children alone so that I don't have to try to explain why an adult acted that way. I am abrupt, and I know that. Still I have enough of a filter to understand that my gut reaction when DS asks why someone did something like this isn't really going to be helpful to him.

It's good that you realize that your reaction may not be helping him. Joining him in his outrage over the broken cake isn't going to help him; it will just reinforce his view that what happened was terrible and deserving of a huge reaction. You can validate his feelings without reinforcing that the event was big and huge. I like what your mother would say to you "Will this matter next week?" "Yes, you are very upset now. You are disappointed. You are frustrated because you said "no" and she did it anyway. It is ok to cry (not to scream, rage, etc). You can get past this. How can we fix it?"

As for explaining why the woman did it, I'd opt for the most generous explanation possible. "She's trying to help lots of kids, and is doing her best. She is probably overwhelmed/distracted. She made a mistake. People make mistakes." Even our very sensitive kiddos (and I have one) need to learn that other people deserve some patience and forgiveness.

As for the meltdown, I think you handled it well. My dd was a very prone to meltdowns at that age, and after limited chances to get it together--it was on to the escape plan. Get the heck out of there, as calmly and efficiently as possible.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I'm more at the "it's just cake/you can't control other people" end of things, but I totally understand that simply ignoring a meltdown doesn't make it go away, nor does just telling him to deal with it and carry on. It doesn't sound to me like you did a bad job under the circumstances, meltdowns are stressful for everyone, not just the kid.

In terms of helping him put things in perspective over time, I guess I'd try to find a balance, acknowledge his feelings/frustration in a calm, "yup, I get it, but it's not the end of the world" voice, and then move on. "Oh, you didn't want your cake broken, but the lady didn't realize. That's frustrating. Oh well, you still have cake on your plate if you want it."

To me, it's also important that my child realize when people are trying to be helpful, instead of just feeling ticked off if they don't get just what they want, so I might have added "It's nice of the lady to be helping out by serving cake to all the kids. She sure has a lot of pieces to serve, and sometimes it's easy to get muddled when you are busy trying to help everyone." We help kids learn empathy by showing empathy towards them and acknowledging their feelings, but they also need to see us extending that to other people.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
. I just feel a lot of posters (and people IRL) are making broad statements about how DS just has to learn that I don't think I'm capturing the ferocity of his rage.

I get it, and would encourage you to explore _why_ his is having such intense reactions (we sought help for dd's meltdowns/rages at age 3 and 6, so I definitely get it). In my dd's case, anxiety was a major contributor to her rage. It certainly didn't help that _I_ am an anxious person, and her anxiety would feed off of mine. Thus, helping dd became a journey in healing myself. The things parenting can teach us, huh?

That is why I say that your outrage is likely feeding his. Most of us parents would not be angry at the woman for breaking the cake. We'd be frustrated with the situation, and with our dc's huge reaction, but could probably relate to a person helping lots of kids making a mistake with one child's food. The fact that it is a Big Deal to you will reinforce to him that it is a Big Deal. (same with my anxiety reinforcing my dd's). If you can truly take a new, more zen perspective on this kind of issue, it will help you both in the long run (even if it does not immediately end his overreactions).


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

D_McG said:


> Also the choice of the word 'broken' cake is odd to me. She cut the cake. It's just cake. It's not a big deal. To consider it an 'injustice' and a Really Important Issue is playing into his misperception. He is not interpreting the situation in a normal or healthy way (perhaps b/c he's 4. Perhaps b/c he has some issues). But IDK if you can do something to help reframe his impressions of everyday situations.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I admit that I have been cringing every time I read "broken cake", and I'm not sure why.
> ...


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 

I admit that I have been cringing every time I read "broken cake", and I'm not sure why.

I think this post might have some insight. Sometimes simply changing a word can have a HUGE effect on our emotional response to something. (Although I am not comfortable with the use of the word normal here.







)

Your son may have been crying and talking about the "broken" cake so that's were the word choice came from. Maybe it would help, even a little bit, to repeat back to him what he said but make the language more neutral. Something like, "You are mad because you wanted your cake to be 1 piece, not 2."

You were probably cringing because plates, ornaments, points of pencils are things that get broken. Food is served, in pieces or not, cut up or not. You can't eat off a broken plate, but you can eat your cake, whether it's in one piece, two pieces or cut into bite size pieces. So I get your point about the language.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
You were probably cringing because plates, ornaments, points of pencils are things that get broken. Food is served, in pieces or not, cut up or not. You can't eat off a broken plate, but you can eat your cake, whether it's in one piece, two pieces or cut into bite size pieces. So I get your point about the language.

Not to get lost in semantics, but broken is correct here. DS got a napkin and put a piece of cake on it. He was sitting down to eat. She said, "do you want me to break your cake in two?" He said, "no." She picked it up and broke it in half and then walked away when he started crying. She did not serve it to him in two pieces, and she used her hand not a utensil.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Yes! This has been our experience. I know we've gotten derailed here in the philosophical discussion of the woman's motivations, etc., which is fine for here, but my concern with DS is whether we're doing the right thing and how to handle it. You've also said what I asked about before but better. When people say "just ignore him" or "just say X" I really, truly don't get that. It does not work with DS to do that, and his rages can last extended periods of time. This one stopped after we got home because DH was able to get through to him that we understood what happened and we agreed with his position. I just feel a lot of posters (and people IRL) are making broad statements about how DS just has to learn that I don't think I'm capturing the ferocity of his rage. I've never in my life (and I've been around tons of children) seen rages like his - either in intensity or length. There are days when I'm just sobbing by day's end because I don't know what to do anymore.

I know we have a non-profit here that works to connect families with appropriate professionals, and I can contact them. There's a wonderful children's center an hour away, but we need a referral to get in. I don't know if we can get one from our family doc or not, but I may check.

I'm glad to hear that!

And I do agree that "your DS just has to learn" probably isn't helpful. From the sound of it, he may benefit from some coaching in specific techniques of self-calming (meditation and deep breathing work well with my son) but he is also going to need the maturity to listen as someone explains those techniques to him, and the impulse control to employ the techniques before succumbing to the total freak-out. Many (most?) kids can work out coping skills on their own if all the parents do is walk away, but by 4 I think it can be pretty obvious that a child is not developing those skills on his own. Minimizing with "it's just cake" "or "life is tough" also doesn't really help them learn how to cope.

There's a video we love at our house called Kibble's Rockin' Clubhouse that uses songs and skits to demonstrate socially appropriate behavior. The target audience is kids with autism but I think pretty much any preschooler would enjoy and benefit from it. The songs are really fun and catchy. A good one on there is "I'm okay when things don't go my way," which sounds kinda hokey but my DS _loves_ it. You can see a brief clip here:






Maybe check your library, that's where we came across it. We loved it so much we bought our own copy.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Not to get lost in semantics, but broken is correct here. DS got a napkin and put a piece of cake on it. He was sitting down to eat. She said, "do you want me to break your cake in two?" He said, "no." She picked it up and broke it in half and then walked away when he started crying. She did not serve it to him in two pieces, and she used her hand not a utensil.

Now that you describe that in more detail I really have to commiserate because my son also would have become completely unglued over that. You really could not touch his food once you had served it to him, without carefully explaining/offering what you were going to do and waiting for him to understand your question and agree. He also did things like, if a drop of his juice got spilled, he would insist on pouring out the entire cup in the sink and getting a fresh cup. He had to get it back "right" exactly the way it was before it got messed up. Of course we didn't allow him to waste the juice but then we'd have to endure hours of screaming. He could do this EVERY DAY, we could ignore him EVERY DAY, it would still happen over and over and over again. (This is why he was still drinking from a sippy cup at age 5, lol.)

FTR, he's 6 now and those behaviors are a fading memory. It gets better!


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
To me, it's also important that my child realize when people are trying to be helpful, instead of just feeling ticked off if they don't get just what they want, so I might have added "It's nice of the lady to be helping out by serving cake to all the kids. She sure has a lot of pieces to serve, and sometimes it's easy to get muddled when you are busy trying to help everyone." We help kids learn empathy by showing empathy towards them and acknowledging their feelings, but they also need to see us extending that to other people.

I think this is a very good point. It's hard for kids this age to see past themselves. It's perfectly normal for them to be entirely egocentric.

I'm going to remember this the next time DD has a meltdown about something. I'm not sure we've tried this approach yet.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

Not to minimize your oppertunity to seek thereapy, but I'm not sure if my suggestion got lost in the pile. But in the sound of music they called a kid who refused to be treated like a kid "incouragable". I never looked it up-why would the t.v. lie to me? Sounds like that's part of your son's frusteration. If (big if). If you have time to volenteer at a food bank or other local charity with tons of other volenteers every other weekend I promise those adults who volenteer there time also will mostly treat your son with the same respect that you do. Even though most adults in this world most likely just won't. This would serve a second purpose because I heard that your activist activities took a little of the edge off of your anger. It feels good to think that you can make a difference. It sounds like he's already aware enough to get something out of it. It would probably mean a lot to your precocious youngster about himself and his ability to make the world better by stuffing boxes with food for the hungry children and families.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Episodes like this are familiar as both my kids have them. They're both getting better with age, coaching and patience. DD's are clearly anxiety related and we've worked that angle. DS clearly has executive functioning issues.

It helps me to remember that when they get to that point there is NO higher order thinking going on - it's all flight or fight. That helps me stay centred so that I can support them, and sometimes that means gently (which can be hard when they're physically losing it) removing them from the situation. The other thing that helps is calmly naming the emotion "That's frustrating!" or reflecting back what I think they're experiencing. This does not snap them out of it, but it often shortens the duration. As they've gotten older, if I get in there fast enough, I can sometimes get them back on the calm(er) track. They also become more socially aware as they're older and don't like the looks so can self-regulate them back to centre more often.

This is a pretty good book on executive function. I don't love the title, but it's a good read:
http://books.google.com/books?id=J5M...age&q=&f=false

I also like this one, as she has a gentle take on kids who are complicated:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kPt...s+don%27t+fit#

DS received EI and other interventions, and I have to say that my research and strategizing have likely had the greatest effect. We've reached out for help and I'm so glad for what we've received, but no one knows him and loves him as I do. The support of others with experience has helped, but these complicated boys are so lucky to have mothers who fight for them.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
We had him evaluated this summer with mixed results. So many people have mentioned Aspergers' to us, and we have looked at it. I'm not entirely sure it doesn't fit.

The psych who saw him mostly looked for adhd, which we knew he didn't fit. He also evaluated him for sensory issues, which he doesn't have. He is gifted, and apparently his language skills are farther ahead than we'd thought. The eval said he was about average for an 8YO on most of his tests. Emotionally he's 4, which makes it really, really hard to balance because he gets so angry if he thinks you're treating him "like a baby," but he *is* still a preschooler. He just doesn't know it!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
but my concern with DS is whether we're doing the right thing and how to handle it.

I think you handled it fine. I agree that I probably would have left after the 2nd meltdown when it became clear that he wasn't going to be able to recover in that situation because the injustice of it all was too glaring to him.

What happens when you sit with him and just him cry about it? I saw in your response that you were trying to reason with him, and offer him alternatives. What would happen if you just sat with him on your lap, agreed that it wasn't nice once or twice and then let him get it out? However long it took?

I see a lot of parents, myself included, trying to 'reason' with kids in these situations. What we forget is that by the time they're melting down like this, they have ceased to be rational beings for the moment. It's not about the cake, and the broken cake isn't fixable anyway. It's about the injustice and the emotional hurt. You CAN'T fix that. You can only soothe it.

If you have a highly verbal kid, the tendency to try verbal reasoning increases. I see this with our dd all the time. She can talk. She can articulate highly complex ideas, even when she's really upset. BUT she also rejects all of my arguments. Why? Because she's not feeling reasonable. She's feeling hurt. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, she can't be reasonable. Through experience (our dd is about a year or so older than your ds), I've discovered that letting her 'cry it out' in our arms is what she NEEDS. Since your son's rages are so intense, I don't know if this will work.

In this case, your son was overwhelmed by the happenings in church before the 'cake incident' and by the prospect of the hayride in the afternoon. His emotional capacity was stretched thin, and snapped. When that happens, there isn't much you CAN do, except gather your stuff and go home when it's clear that recovery is going to take a while.

The other thing is that some children (and I'd describe your son as 'highly sensitive' even if he doesn't fit a diagnostic category), rely on parents for co-regulation of emotions longer than others.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
I know we have a non-profit here that works to connect families with appropriate professionals, and I can contact them. There's a wonderful children's center an hour away, but we need a referral to get in. I don't know if we can get one from our family doc or not, but I may check.

I think that this is a good idea -- just having some outside ideas, maybe some play therapy might help all of you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
It helps me to remember that when they get to that point there is NO higher order thinking going on - it's all flight or fight. That helps me stay centred so that I can support them, and sometimes that means gently (which can be hard when they're physically losing it) removing them from the situation. The other thing that helps is calmly naming the emotion "That's frustrating!" or reflecting back what I think they're experiencing. This does not snap them out of it, but it often shortens the duration. As they've gotten older, if I get in there fast enough, I can sometimes get them back on the calm(er) track. They also become more socially aware as they're older and don't like the looks so can self-regulate them back to centre more often.









I think she said it more elegantly than I did!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

We are coming off a string of tough days here--another cycle of tantrums. DD is 4, and she too feels things intensely. I went to the bookstore last night and found a book that is really helping me, even though the title doesn't sound quite right, what he discusses inside hit the nail on head.

The book is 10 DAYS TO A LESS DEFIANT CHILD, by Dr Jeffrey Bernstein. DD is 4, I don't really consider "defiance" to be the biggest issue--it's more that we have these meltdowns that go totally out of control once they start. But the meltdowns do usually start because she is told no or something is not to her liking. I've been using all the GD techniques, and after last week, I felt like they weren't working. I lost my temper on Friday and Monday and screamed and behaved worse than she was, honestly.

This book, by Jeffrey Bernstein, completely reinforced everything I had been doing, as far as gentle discipline. It helped get me back on track. He explains why yelling & hitting doesn't work, but what I really liked about the book, is that he really spends a lot of time talking about ME, the parent, and how I can help. He goes into detail about what being calm and firm really looks like, how to be non-controlling and most importantly, how to stay focused on the fact that your ultimate goal is to be connected with your child, and help them grow into a healthy adult--not just to stop tantrums/bad behavior. He also has some good tips about how to keep a positive view of your child. I wanted to post this, because of the other other posts regarding yoru child "just dealing with it"--in my opinion, the book laid out some good, concrete ways for both you and your child to "learn to deal"!

I've read a ton of books, love to read, but for me, this book really helped me accept that tantrums are going to be a part of this process with my child--there's no magic bullet, but hopefully if I keep it calm and help her to find better ways to deal, ultimately we'll get past them. And then there might be a backslide. And then it will get better, and that's normal.

The book deals a lot with older, very oppositional kids--not where we are now, but I really just found it very validating and helpful and would recommend it.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

First thing - I think you need to let go of whatever anger at the lady who broke the cake. I know that sometimes I find myself asking someone about their preference and doing the opposite because I"m on autopilot doing what my kid or my husband (or me!) prefers. I'm notorious for asking "Do you want milk in your coffee?" *as* I'm pouring in the milk!

At that age, when my DS had a meltdown, once it was going, there was really no reasoning, and too much talking made it worse. So generally we had to get someplace out of the way and ride it out. In the middle of a meltdown, they're not processing information in any rational way, and *too much* information made the meltdown worse. I learned taht a meltdown was my cue to *stop* offering alternatives, switching directions, trying different ideas. ALl those contributed to the worsening of his loss of control.

We saved all the talking about it for afterwards, and we'd talk about what set it off and what we all could have done differently.

When the meltdown was for something that would generally be thought of as no big deal, we'd sympathize ("I know you don't like your cake broken,") but we would NOT make a big deal affirming his fit was reasonable or that he was in the right (So we wouldn't be all "ooh, she was so mean and wrong to break your cake"). Instead, we might say "I bet she knows a little boy who *likes* his cake broken like that. If it happens again, maybe we could say "could I have a piece that isn't broken?" and we can leave the broken piece for a little kid who likes broken cake."


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
it's good that you realize that your reaction may not be helping him. Joining him in his outrage over the broken cake isn't going to help him; it will just reinforce his view that what happened was terrible and deserving of a huge reaction. You can validate his feelings without reinforcing that the event was big and huge. I like what your mother would say to you "will this matter next week?" "yes, you are very upset now. You are disappointed. You are frustrated because you said "no" and she did it anyway. It is ok to cry (not to scream, rage, etc). You can get past this. How can we fix it?"

as for explaining why the woman did it, i'd opt for the most generous explanation possible. "she's trying to help lots of kids, and is doing her best. She is probably overwhelmed/distracted. She made a mistake. People make mistakes." even our very sensitive kiddos (and i have one) need to learn that other people deserve some patience and forgiveness.

As for the meltdown, i think you handled it well. My dd was a very prone to meltdowns at that age, and after limited chances to get it together--it was on to the escape plan. Get the heck out of there, as calmly and efficiently as possible.

ita


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

I really like sunnmama's suggestion to opt for the most generous explanation possible. This allows for the possibility that we are all human. We all make mistakes. We can't really know anyone else's intent without thorough discussion.

Modeling this in your interactions with others when "wronged" when your LO isn't super stressed/melting down might give him an alternate internal dialogue of just "she broke my cake" instead of "she didn't respect me." I would even suggest that ideally, he could move to the point of not even recognizing the broken cake as a slight and instead processing it as just a minor annoyance.

You could narrate to your DS internal conversations along these lines:

"Goodness! That cashier didn't hear me when I said we brought our bags. Next time I will just hand them over first. Oh well, we can use these paper ones to wrap your friend's birthday gift."

"Ugh. I really don't like it when others cut in line. He must not see that the line starts around the corner. I will let him know."

"How frustrating that driver cut me off! She must be in a big hurry/really distracted. I will be sure to give even more space so that others choice to drive unsafely won't hurt us."

Also, modifying your coping strategy to assertively addressing others when you feel wronged by minor mishaps -- or even better narrating a generous explanation and letting it go -- and instead ranting to your DH after the fact might also help your LO see other possibilities.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Not to get lost in semantics, but broken is correct here. DS got a napkin and put a piece of cake on it. He was sitting down to eat. She said, "do you want me to break your cake in two?" He said, "no." She picked it up and broke it in half and then walked away when he started crying. She did not serve it to him in two pieces, and she used her hand not a utensil.

Ewww.

I can see why he was set off. When DD was 4 she would have reacted the exact same way.

Being served a slice of cake that has been cut in two is totally different than already having your cake, sitting down to eat and having someone put there hands all over it and mess it up.

My DH would happily break a cookie in half to share with anyone, but if I or the kids took a bite off of it, he wants nothing to do with it. Of course, he's 38 so he's had some practice with restraining a tantrum and working out a solution to the problem.









I think your 4 year old deserves some slack.


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## Deefodil (May 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hablame_today* 
Not to minimize your oppertunity to seek thereapy, but I'm not sure if my suggestion got lost in the pile. *But in the sound of music they called a kid who refused to be treated like a kid "incouragable".* I never looked it up-why would the t.v. lie to me? Sounds like that's part of your son's frusteration. If (big if). If you have time to volenteer at a food bank or other local charity with tons of other volenteers every other weekend I promise those adults who volenteer there time also will mostly treat your son with the same respect that you do. Even though most adults in this world most likely just won't. This would serve a second purpose because I heard that your activist activities took a little of the edge off of your anger. It feels good to think that you can make a difference. It sounds like he's already aware enough to get something out of it. It would probably mean a lot to your precocious youngster about himself and his ability to make the world better by stuffing boxes with food for the hungry children and families.

I think the word you're looking for is _incorrigible_.

Quote:

Main Entry: in·cor·ri·gi·ble
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)in-ˈkȯr-ə-jə-bəl, -ˈkär-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin incorrigibilis, from Latin in- + corrigere to correct - more at correct
Date: 14th century

: incapable of being corrected or amended: as a (1) : not reformable : depraved (2) : delinquent b : not manageable : unruly c : unalterable, inveterate

- in·cor·ri·gi·bil·i·ty \-ˌkȯr-ə-jə-ˈbi-lə-tē, -ˌkär-\ noun

- incorrigible noun

- in·cor·ri·gi·ble·ness \-ˈkȯr-ə-jə-bəl-nəs, -ˈkär-\ noun

- in·cor·ri·gi·bly \-blē\ adverb
or

Quote:

n⋅cor⋅ri⋅gi⋅ble
  /ɪnˈkɔrɪdʒəbəl, -ˈkɒr-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-kawr-i-juh-buhl, -kor-]
-adjective
1. not corrigible; bad beyond correction or reform: incorrigible behavior; an incorrigible liar.
2. impervious to constraints or punishment; willful; unruly; uncontrollable: an incorrigible child; incorrigible hair.
3. firmly fixed; not easily changed: an incorrigible habit.
4. not easily swayed or influenced: an incorrigible optimist.
-noun
5. a person who is incorrigible.
Origin:
1300-50; ME < L incorrigibilis. See in- 3 , corrigible

in·cor·ri·gi·ble (ĭn-kôr'ĭ-jə-bəl, -kŏr'-)
adj.

1.

Incapable of being corrected or reformed: an incorrigible criminal.
2.

Firmly rooted; ineradicable: incorrigible faults.
3.

Difficult or impossible to control or manage: an incorrigible, spoiled child.

n. One that cannot be corrected or reformed.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
I really like sunnmama's suggestion to opt for the most generous explanation possible. This allows for the possibility that we are all human. We all make mistakes. We can't really know anyone else's intent without thorough discussion.

Modeling this in your interactions with others when "wronged" when your LO isn't super stressed/melting down might give him an alternate internal dialogue of just "she broke my cake" instead of "she didn't respect me." I would even suggest that ideally, he could move to the point of not even recognizing the broken cake as a slight and instead processing it as just a minor annoyance.

You could narrate to your DS internal conversations along these lines:

"Goodness! That cashier didn't hear me when I said we brought our bags. Next time I will just hand them over first. Oh well, we can use these paper ones to wrap your friend's birthday gift."

"Ugh. I really don't like it when others cut in line. He must not see that the line starts around the corner. I will let him know."

"How frustrating that driver cut me off! She must be in a big hurry/really distracted. I will be sure to give even more space so that others choice to drive unsafely won't hurt us."

Also, modifying your coping strategy to assertively addressing others when you feel wronged by minor mishaps -- or even better narrating a generous explanation and letting it go -- and instead ranting to your DH after the fact might also help your LO see other possibilities.

I *REALLY* like this advice.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I sort of disappeared from this thread while we worked some things out.

Hablame, I did read the suggestion about helping him find a service-related outlet. He does do a good bit of volunteer work with me, but I will talk to him about planning his own thing. I do some basic stuff - volunteering at the women's shelter, coordinating food drives - but also some bigger, more offbeat stuff. I'm planning a camp-out on our Capitol Lawn until I have enough donations for coats/hats/gloves for our city's homeless population. DS wants to join me, but neither DH nor I want him to. He will be there during the day, but I can't in good conscience let him spend the night with me there, so I'm trying to brainstorm ideas with him for something he can "own" in that.

All in all, though, we've had a rough week. He does better with structure and something constructive to do, but he's also insatiable. I talked to a friend from church about the cake incident (they were there when the whole thing happened but didn't know why it happened), and she said that her son had a meltdown because of something similar with an apple. So we were talking about several issues with the boys and getting upset over things like that, except that, of course, her son gets over it in a couple of minutes and isn't violent. So I'm feeling better that getting upset over these types of things is normal, but we really need to work on appropriate responses (or non-responses).


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Nor do I know how to explain that sometimes we do have to move on when what we wanted didn't happen and cannot be corrected.

Have you tried saying this to him, directly? I've found with my own prone to hysterics kids, the more I try to "fix" things, the worse it makes it. If I focus on agreeing with the frustration and problem, and validating their upset, they get over it more quickly. My son has some anxiety and perfection issues, and the 'redos' and 'fixes' make him more anxious (becuase it's never "right" or never the same as originally planned) than validating the emotion he's having (angry, sad, frustrated), and talking about what we could do next time differently. It doesn't mean they don't wig out, it just means they don't wig out *as much*.

So I would have said something like, "Wow, she really didn't listen when you said you didn't want your cake broken in half. I'm sorry that happened, it's *SO* frustrating. Well........you can eat it as is, or we can figure out something else. We can't change what already happened, so let's figure out what we CAN do."


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
So I'm feeling better that getting upset over these types of things is normal, but we really need to work on appropriate responses (or non-responses).









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