# Traditional Foods (NT) Mamas - August Thread



## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Thougt I'd start off a new thread for August.

How's everyone doing? I've got NT apple butter that I need to use up soon. I'm thinking about using it in a bread, like putting the apple butter instead of banana in the NT banana bread recipe. I also may try one of the recipes under the apple butter cookie thread. I'll probably make both, I've got a whole quart to use up.

Since the summer session ended and I've got 3 more weeks until school starts back up, I've been enjoying getting to do more in the kitchen. I'm taking chicken out of the freezer tonite so I can make stock in the next day or two..its been a couple of months since I made it.

Well, healthy and yummy eats to you all.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Hooray! Thanks for starting a new thread! Cathe, can you archive our old one pretty please?









We've been doing lots of foraging of wild blackberries. They just started ripening and are oh-so-tasty! We're also finally starting to harvest our first ripe tomatoes of the season. This year we are taking great pains to use organic soil amendments and foliar feeds (kelp, calcium, and fish meal/emulsion) and it has been making a huge difference in the quality of the produce. Has anyone heard about Brix testing? I've just heard about it for testing the quality of produce but haven't gotten a refractometer as of yet.

One of our chickens got nabbed by an unknown predator a couple weeks ago, but luckily no more have been taken. The shock of the last chicken butchering has faded slightly, which is good because it's about time to do another one. eek.


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## Livi's Mama (Apr 25, 2003)

Hi! I'm new to NT, just finished reading the book and slowly trying new dishes. Finding it a bit difficult. Partly due to the "newness" of so many of the dishes/ingredients & partly because some things are so expensive (ie coconut oil.) Also, I'm concerned DH will revolt if I don't ease him into it







I had made yogurt before, but now I've got milk separating to make whey/cream cheese. Also tried kefir but apparantly I did something wrong, cuz it sure doesn't look right. Is it possible to mess up kefir? - I'm pretty sure my curds were good. Oh well, try again. Any tips for a newbie? So happy to find this group !!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

lol, i didn't even realize there was an apple butter recipe in nt, i prolly erased it from my mind after my salty apricot butter debacle. i have it two ft from me, i'll give it a looksee for my next batch (today is blackberry day, anyway- more perishable!)

suse


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

We just discovered that our 14 hens, brought by the Easter Bunny in April, are actually 12 hens and 2 roosters. We'll probably save one of the boys and eat the other. We're also working on a new area for meat chickens -- they'll have their own coop and large yard for ranging. The yard is divided in half so we can plant one half in clover or something and let the chickens in when it has grown up. The meat chickens will live in what will be our orchard -- to be planted this winter.

I went off the sugar wagon this weekend, actually all of the wagons. I am still off of the fermented beverage wagon (and I don't mean the traditional fermentation techniques). Just lost a baby at 9 weeks and am in a state of recovery. I attempted to read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration as part of my recovery. Have you all seen that book? It is a poorly organized manuscript. Anyway, I decided to crochet a baby blanket instead. My sister-in-law is expecting in October.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

I use both the apricot butter and the berry syrup in my morning grains. Yum!


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Hi, I'm very new here. I just stumbled across NT and the WAP site last week and have been totally converted. I've been reading all your old threads and thats what has really helped convince me to try this way of living out.

I've been A vegetarian off and on for 15 years, started when I was 12. I've eaten fish through parts and ate meat like crazy while I was pregnant. I've started thinking I had a hypothyroid problem which is how I stumbled across NT.

I live in New York City so some things are very hard to get here. Like raw milk. I've seen on one thread that there are some places that mail order it frozen. Has anyone tried this, is it good?

Others things are very easy. Yesterday I was in a part of Brooklyn that is very Russian and I found a resturant with real home made Kvas. I got a big mug of it. I must say it was so refreshing (it was 87 degress out and I'd been on the beach). I'm trying to find a good jar now so I can make some of my own.

Anyway, sorry to babble so but I'm really happy to have found this whole thing and have found you discussions so useful. Can't wait to join in. Thanks!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Gale Force,








about your loss. Here is a







for you and your









Feel better soon.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Just made my first overnight Kefir. It was pretty pleasant straight up, but I saved it and made a smoothie with it this morn. YUM!
















Thanks again Suse!


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
Hi, I'm very new here. I just stumbled across NT and the WAP site last week and have been totally converted. I've been reading all your old threads and thats what has really helped convince me to try this way of living out.

Hi, I'm new, too! Can I join









What is the NT and WAP site? I'd love to check it out, too.
I'm very excited about learning more about all of this!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

nak

thanks xenabyte.









welcome gals.

WAP:

www.westonaprice.org

NT:

Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon

also like

Wild Fermentation by Sandor Katz -- very well written, interesting story and perspective with basics of fermenting various foods.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Oh no! Gale Force, many hugs to you. I'm so sorry to hear about your loss.









Welcome to the new tribe members!

hrheka, I mailordered my butter from http://www.organicpastures.com
there is a NYC WAPF chapter (http://www.wprice-nyc.org/ ) that may be able to help you out with raw milk. Lucky you, you can get pastured meats at the farmers market! My sister lives in Brooklyn and she goes to the market at Union Square? the one next to NYU and gets pastured cheese and meat there.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Hello!

Glad to see some new ones, welcome.
I see blackberry bushes EVERYWHERE, even when I close my eyes. And they're so yummy. We have lots on the land we're living on but I think the other renters are picking it all







. We'll see what I can do this weekend while they're gone. I made some berry suryp a couple of weeks ago and it was rather salty, should it be?? Dh wouldn't eat it at all. The second time I tried it it wasn't too bad, but then I had added some water and rapadura to it. Is it necessary to add salt, and that much? The brand I use now is Real salt. Would celtic salt be better? It's like five times more expensive!!

Tomorrow we're going to Ashland where I'm picking up some pastured beef bones, I'm so excited. I bought some beef and ground lamb last time I was there (3 weeks ago) and haven't used it up since I haven't had any beef broth.
Thinking about making some peach chutney. Got some peaches this week for 4 bucks a case (organic, but hail damaged). Half of them looked alright but one I had was tasteless, so I got discouraged and left them to rot







. I'm just going to buy some at the coop instead. I don't think I will mailorder produce again.

I started some beet kvass, but with the weather being so cold (like 70 degress, that's a 30 degree drop!) I kept it out for three days. I'll taste it tomorrow.

I'm really into NT cooking again, but I'm kind of bummed because my oven doesn't work. I wonder if I can just use the broiler the same way you use an oven. Anyone knows if that's possible? All I got now is a toaster oven. I made crispy almonds, and all I could fit in there was a mere half cup!!

What do you all do for kids snacks and sweets?


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I would like to join this group too. A quick intro: I'm a ovo-lacto vegetarian (10 years) and just about to start adding some meat back to our diet because of health reasons.

Anyways, I'm looking at the kimchi recipe in NT. Has anyone tried it? I never liked kimchi, until I tried some fresh kimchi last year when we were visiting Portland, OR. We went to a french restaurant and the owner's wife is Korean and just made a fresh batch of kimchi. I tried it (because she was very enthusiastic) and it was great! So I'm wondering how authentic the kimchi recipe is. I won't be able to add whey (dairy sensitivity) and will be adding more salt.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

nak

welcome mamaMAMAma. i have been meaning to respond to your other thread -- i was a vegan for 4 years before i got pg about 3 years ago. i was a vegetarian for most of my life before that. i ended up w severe depression in pg and postpartum. after lots of tests, i realized the underlying cause was deficiencies that related to the veg diet. the change has made all the difference.

blackberries: they are native to the mountains here and we've had a few bowls from the wild bushes on our property. our plan this winter is to dig them up and plant them as a hedge around the perimeter to deter deer from visiting. we have two mamas w babies who graze everyday. the berries have nasty thorns, so no animal will be interested. we'll have to pick in long sleeves and jeans. a friend has some very thorny boysenberries we may try as well. so in about two years, you all are invited over for some berry cobbler.

thanks for your condolences toraji. i'm doing much better. we wil be planting a memorial black walnut tree on the west side of our property which will become a dominant part of the landscape there and help frame our view of the Sierra foothills.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

mamaMAMAma,

Let's talk about your dairy sensitivity. Have you tried any homemade cultured dairy products using organic milk? I ask because I was sensitive to dairy as well, commercial yogurt included. I took a chance and started culturing my own yogurt and had no problems, in fact, I started craving it. I now make kefir as well. We're only about five hours away from each other -- I can send you kefir grains if you are interested. Even in this hot weather they should be OK. That goes for anyone else as well -- I always have a good bit of grains. For folks who live outside of California, I should probably wait until the weather cools a bit.

Amanda


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i'm sorry for your loss as well, amanda.

glad the kefir is working, xena! (fwiw, amanda, grains sent from tn to co priority made it there quickly & in good shape.)

now i'm envious of the thorny boysenberries- all i can find in catalogs are the thornless, & like the blackberries i don't like them as much. does anyone know why boysenberries (of any sort) should be so buggery hard to find east of the rockies? in cai they were pretty ubiquitous, & NO one grows them here, tho' i cann't think of a horticultural reason they wouldn't grow. i like them sooo much more than blackberries. (maybe when it cools down you could trade me a slip? i have black & red raspberries, i could send you a chunky rooted piece of both...)

suse

ps i think this trading/sharing thing is actually working out pretty cool, since commercial starts are often so pricey & we end up with so much to share once it grows, anyway.

i am going to try to start some koji for miso and amazake- if what i read is *true*, the ginger 'bug' you start for ale is actually where the aspergillus culture comes from! (can't remember where i read it, but sandor doesn't mention it, i think i may email him & see what he has heard.) if that doesn't work they have koji at my beer store (for sake







)

wish me luck!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaMAMAma*
Anyways, I'm looking at the kimchi recipe in NT. Has anyone tried it? I never liked kimchi, until I tried some fresh kimchi last year when we were visiting Portland, OR. We went to a french restaurant and the owner's wife is Korean and just made a fresh batch of kimchi. I tried it (because she was very enthusiastic) and it was great! So I'm wondering how authentic the kimchi recipe is. I won't be able to add whey (dairy sensitivity) and will be adding more salt.

I looked at the recipe in NT for kimchee and it is very far from being authentic. I am a Korean snob about it though. The one in Wild Fermentation is closer, but the best thing to do is to go straight to a Korean source. You don't need whey to make it. Here is a link to a recipe that looks pretty similar to the one my mom makes: http://www.koreankitchen.com/kimchi.htm
and for radish kimchee: http://www.koreankitchen.com/kkakdooki.htm
stuffed cucumber kimchee: http://www.koreankitchen.com/oheesobakee.htm

You can substitute Vietnamese fish sauce for the Korean fish sauce (or vegetarians can omit this). Korean chile flakes can be bought at a Korean or big Asian grocery store. And a note on the fermentation instructions, they say to put it in an airtight container, but you need to leave the lid loose while it is setting out to let the gases escape.

Happy spicy fermenting!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

suseyblue,

We are actually going sometime this week to get the plant(s). Hopefully tomorrow. Our friend will be moving sometime in the next year and he is overrun with boysenberries, so I'll see about getting some extra. I have no idea what zones they will grow in, but it's worth a shot.

Amanda


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

gale force: About my dairy sensitivity, I just discovered this a few weeks ago. I've been off dairy because of dd#2 (gassy) and noticed that my perpetual runny nose went away. I tried some goat feta cheese and the runny nose came back(so I'm allergic to goat too). Thats when I figured out I'm somehow allergic to dairy (dd#1 is too, and she gets red bumps around her mouth when she eats yogurt...). I've never tried kefir or making my own yogurt / kefir. I would love to try. I believe I saw some kefir grains at WF, is that the same as yours? Or do you have a special batch?








I'm very sorry about your loss. I had a miscarriage May 2003. The black walnut tree sounds like a great way to remember your little angel.

toraji: Thanks for the links. I'll stop by the asian market this week to pick up some korean chilli and fish sauce.

We have blackberries in our backyard too. The thorns on those things are hideous and they grow like weeds. Just discovered the hard way that there are thorns on the back of the leaves too! Ouch! But they are so tasty.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

mamaMAMAma,

I am not sure what they have at Whole Foods, probably some sort of kefir-like starter. I doubt they have the real deal. How about if I send you some actual kefir (the drink) since it sounds like you have a good litmus test for your sensitivity. If it's OK, I can send you grains so you can make it yourself.

Amanda


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

SWAP IDEA

Ladies -- we should organize a good, old-fashion MDC swap for plants, garden products, starters, etc. I figure an early fall swap would be ideal -- before hard freezes for gardening items. We could start a post in the swap forum sometime in Sept and mail in early October. What do you all think?

We just moved here so everything I can harvest is extremely drought, deer, gopher, and squirrel resistent. It all survived the care of the previous non-gardening owner. I could put together packages of (1) bay leaves, rosemary, lavender; (2) succulents; (3) bulbs -- narcissus, daffodils; (4) bearded iris; (5) scented germaniums. I think it would be cool to get seeds and starts from other people, of anything, frankly.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i mentioned something awhile ago about that, but got discouraged after poking around the swap forum- it is not at ALL what it used to be, & seems to be mostly dipe-orientated ($20 value, 'back' swaps i cannot figure, etc.) we had a round robin for seeds a few years ago that worked out pretty well. but i am organizationally impaired; if you can figure out a way to make it work for us, i will be happy to join! (lots of seeds, queen of the night cereus cuttings... hmnn, if i start rooting stuff now...)

lol- how does one get 'extra' daff bulbs? i'm bad; i have 1000s but keep finding new places to stuff 'em.









suse <--- bulb greedy


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

gale force: I would like to try kefir, but how are you going to send me some? I know you live close, but its still 5 hours away. I was at WF earlier and I checked and they have yogamart (?) kefir grains.

Anyways, I'm really glad I found this thread. I got my napa cabbage and as soon as dd#2 goes to bed I'll start my kimchi. toraji: I got some thai chili paste instead. THought I'd give it a try and will get some korean chili paste next time I go to the asian market.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i used to bury my kimchee







lots of korean relatives... it's been ages since i made any & i haven't double-checked the nt version for authenticity, lol. now i'm curious. isn't it pretty much napa or bok choi, ginger, red pepper (or the paste), garlic, salt? i don't think i put fish sauce in mine, & i put fish sauce in everything.







btw, isn't chili paste pretty much chili paste? i use sambal oelek because it's easy to find, & is chile, vinegar, salt- pretty basic. what's in the korean brand?

suse


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## milk4two (Mar 20, 2003)

I just unpacked my NT book after our move and can't wait to get back into the groove. We have been eating really poorly the last 2 months.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I started my kimchi last night. Actually I put the napa in the salt solution. Today I'll add the chili paste and veggies... Hmm, I can taste it already. I hope it comes out okay.
suse: I don't know whats in the korean brand chili paste but will try and get some this sat. I've never tried sambal oelek.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

chili paste? Arrgh, I should have checked the recipe more thoroughly. It is supposed to be korean chile flakes, which come dry in a bag, not a paste which is probably more expensive. I'm not sure what is in chile paste, but it would probably turn out good anyways! Just not authentic.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Oops toraji. Its me... it says chili powder in the recipe. I was at the store yesterday and didn't bring the recipe with me. I'll for sure try and get some chili powder this weekend to try it out though. I have a feeling I'll be making a lot of kimchi!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey,

Anyone make Pemmican?

I have the NT recipe, but was wondering if anyone has a different recipe or way to do it that they REALLY like.

Ditto for jerky recipes...

tia


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

mamaMAMAma,

I could send you the grains and if it didn't work out, I guess you could toss them. _Feel the shudder of the kefir lovers reading the thred._ I could send you the drink (I'm thinking in tupperware or something), it would be extra sour by the time it arrived, but I think it would be OK. You could make a smoothie to help with the sour and test it out.

On the swap -- I'll see how I'm doing in a few weeks and if my organizational skills are up to par. It would be fun, but I am sure complicated.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I must say I'm awfully jealous of all you mamas with yards with all those yummy things growing. I'm looking into my Brooklyn back"yard", its a bunch of concrete & a fire escape. Maybe one day...

Anyway, so I've been reading NT and checking out the WAP site. We've been eating meat again for a little over a week. I'm starting to feel a bit less dazed than I'd been feeling over the last few years so thats nice. My daughter LOVES meat, this is her first experience eating it (14 mos) and is eating so much more now than she had been eating.

I just wanted to ask the rest of you how often your families are eating meat? What are your meals like on a typical day? I feel like I'm still integrating so much new knowledge I'm wondering what people who have been following this path for longer are doing.

Thanks so much.


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello Heather,

I have been missing from the boards here for a while, but am checking in for a bit today. I have a great pemmican recipe somewhere that I can dig up for you. I will try to post it a little later.

Rebekah


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello, I found the pemmican recipe. Here is the site I adapted it from:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~haskell/HSP/PEMMICAN.html

We use almost equal amounts of fat and dried meat. The more fat you use; the sweeter it tastes. Also dried cranberries give it a really nice tartness. We also use currants and apricots. Almonds seem to be the best nuts to use. We press the ground beef flat onto dehydrator trays and dehydrate it at room temp with a fan on high to preserve all of the enzymes. Then we grind it in a meat grinder or grain mill so that it is very powdery. The finer you grind the meat, the better the texture in my opinion. Anyway, that is how we do it. I think the most important thing is getting the fat ratio right though. Like I said we use quite a bit more fat than that recipe uses and think it is really great. Anyway, let me know if you try this recipe and how it turns out for you.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Thank you Rebekah! I copied it and will try it in next few days.

Q: So, ground beef, not thin strips like jerky? Or is it just a matter of what you have on hand? I wanted to make some regular jerky too, so if there is no appreciable taste difference, I figure I'd make extra jerky and convert some to 'pemmican'.

THANKS AGAIN


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hrheka*
I just wanted to ask the rest of you how often your families are eating meat? What are your meals like on a typical day? I feel like I'm still integrating so much new knowledge I'm wondering what people who have been following this path for longer are doing.

My family tends to do less emphasis on the meat than NT recommends. We do about 1/4 lb per person a day on the days that we do eat it, which lately has been pretty skimpy since we need to butcher another chicken. Before that it was probably every other day and bone broths 3 x a week. Every day has some sort of animal product though, usually dairy in the form of raw butter or yogurt/kefir.

I'm going off to breakfast right now, I'll start a "NT Mamas-What I ate today" thread when I get back. (Unless someone wants to beat me to it and start one first!)


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello Heather,

Yes, we use ground beef not jerky. I can't imagine that grinding jerky would work. It needs to be put through a meat grinder to get it somewhat powdery. With jerky, the fibers are still together and tough from being dry, and I think that would make it chunky and irregular shaped. I imagine the natives who did this had some sort of huge mortar and pestle type thing that they pounded it with. Pounding jerky would probably powder it, but that would be too much work, I think. Also twice ground beef is better than just a single grinding. We make ground beef jerky sometimes for the kids. It is easier for them to break and chew. You can mix in spices and stuff pretty easily while the meat is still moist also. Anyway, let me know what you use and how it turns out!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

WOW, that's a great idea. My Ds #1 LOVES to 'suck' on jerky when he sees DH eating it. I would never have thought to use ground beef so he can eat it easier (and father has false teeth, and that would be nice for him, he loves flavor, but hates traditional jerky as it's hard to eat)!!!

Thank you again! I've got some ground buffalo in freezer, I'm gonna spice it, and dehydrate it! OMG how easy! I was dreading 'slicing super thin' some brisket!

I have dried fruit (cranberries, etc) on hand, so I actually might get to make this tonight!

Mmm, I wonder how coconut oil would work for the 'fat' portion? It keeps a long long time, but I know 'animal' fats keep longer.

Would you 100% suggest I go get some beef fat trimmings from the butcher (don't have any really fatty meats on hand, atm) and render it myself? Have you ever used another fat?

Thanks again! Either way, gonna make ground beef jerky tonight!


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, I tried the kimchi today. It's good but a little too salty (and I eat pretty salty already). So I'm wondering for the next batch if I can add less salt? I'm not sure how the salt content affects the fermentation. I used the recipe on the koreankitchen website.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I wonder what happened? Did you rinse the cabbage well after you salted it to wilt? Did you account for the salt in the chili sauce that you used? I think you can use less salt, you just have to watch the fermentation a bit more. I'll ask my DH (resident fermentation expert).


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

So its week 2 for my family of changing the way we eat. Things are going well except my energy is so low. I'm attributing this to the fact the I gave up coffee cold turkey. Its been a week and a half without any caffeine. Most of the day I'm fine, not really peppy but getting through, but then there are times like now when I'm so tired.

So I'm wondering how many of you have kicked the caffeine habit. how long did it take you to adjust to a new way of eating (especially those who were previous vegetarians)? My family seems to be adjusting better, my husband still drinks coffee because its harder to quit with his job.

Prior to our change I did drink a lot of coffee, but not a lot of sweets or refined carbs. Never had junk in the house just snacked on it when I was outside of the house. So I don't think its the lack of sugar that's doing this. Its most likely a combination of things. Just feel like I need some encouragement before I drag myself over to the espresso machine.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Good for you hrheka! I used to drink 5-6 cups of coffee a day, and quit cold turkey as well. (this was 5-6 years ago). I had really bad headaches for a bout 2 weeks and then the headaches went away. I don't crave coffee at all even when dh is brewing his decaf. So hang in there, you're doing great.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

hooray for kicking coffee! It's so hard, kudos to you!

What about juice as an alternative? Wheatgrass is supposed to give you a boost. Also smoothies with raw pastured eggs.

I kicked coffee long before I switched to omnivorism, so I wouldn't be able to tell you how long it took me to adjust. You are probably having a hard time with the radical diet change. Hugs to you. It will get so much better after your body recovers from the caffeine addiction!

I generally have pretty low energy normally (all my life), I think I have some adrenal issues. It got better when I started eating this way, but I'm wondering if maybe I have some gluten issues as well that are contributing to my tiredness?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Thanks for the support mamaMAMAma and Toraji. It made me feel better to hear you say two weeks mamaMAMAma, so many people were telling me it would just be a few days so i started getting a bit nervous now that its been almost a week and a half. I'll definately try the wheatgrass juice on Monday when I stop by the health food store. Toraji, do you recommend having a little every day while I'm getting over the caffeine or just some every few days?

I've often wondered if I have gluten issues as well. The past few weeks soaking or fermenting my grains have made them a little easier on my system. I know two people recently diagnosed with Celiac and both of them have really big energy issues. I've been thinking if my energy does not start to balance out soon I might be tested for gluten intolerance. Both of my friends had very few symptons but were severely celiac.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I think I'd probably take it slow introducing wheatgrass juice into your diet. A little bit, then increase if you don't have any problems. Wheatgrass juice is notorious for detoxing. I used to do a little bit mixed in with other veggies, like carrot/celery/beet and apple. I was never much for doing straight shots of the stuff. So maybe just a little every day? You can adjust if it makes you feel bad or good.

Yeah, hopefully I can beat these energy issues without going grain-free. The thought quite honestly scares me although I totally understand the benefits of it. I've heard if you are celiac that it's best to go totally grain-free as there is a lot of gluten-grain contamination of the non-gluten grains.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

How is everyone doing? Just wanted to bump this up so it didn't get buried.

We finally butchered another chicken and it went much smoother this time around. It dressed out at 8 pounds! Big chicken indeed. It was a Cornish cross meat bird, the ones they usually butcher at 6 weeks for broilers. We obviously let ours go longer. But it was still rough. I don't think it will ever get easy (nor do I want it to get easy!) to butcher an animal. Keeps your human-ness in perspective, KWIM?


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I'm glad things went better this time Toraji. I'm so amazed that you can do that, how do you learn these types of things? Did you internship with a farm or anything? I'm unfortunately a city girl now but when I was a kid there were a lot of cows and chickens around but I was never privy to the slaughtering process. We're thinking about getting out of this blasted city in a few years a trying for someplace where we can have some animals but I'm not sure how to go about learning what I'd need to do to tend for them, etc.

Anyway, I'm in the process of moving, again (2nd time this year). We're staying in Brooklyn for now but we're moving to an area with no health food store. We're set for produce/meat/eggs/basic dairy from the farmer's market that we go to once a week in Manhattan. I'm trying to figure out how to get grains though. Does anyone know someplace on-line that sells good grains? I need them ground already as I've not saved the $$$ for a grinder. I'd prefer they were organic and ground by whoever was selling them to me. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I grew up a total city girl, although the place I lived had a lot of horses around. But it was definitely not the farm-type horses, more of the arena show kind. To be honest, DH kinda dragged me into farm life (lol, he's a product of the concrete jungle as well), but the more I started looking into self-sufficient living the more I liked all the philosophy and concepts behind it.

My bible is "The Encyclopedia of Country Living" by Carla Emery. That is the most comprehensive book on self-sufficient farm skills I've found. I also do a lot of research on the net when I need to learn something specific like how to butcher a chicken. We still fumbled around pretty badly the first time around ("Is that the gizzard?" "I don't know, I've never eaten one!"). So we're just giving it our best (blind) shot, and it seems to be working okay.

On mail-order flours: if I had to order them online, I'd go through this place (sells sprouted flours!) http://www.creatingheaven.net/eeproducts/eesfc/
or Azure Standard (big West Coast co-op) http://www.azurestandard.com
Shipping might be pretty costly to the East Coast though.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Our meat chicken area is almost finished and I am getting a bit nervous about the slaughter. We have hens who will start laying any day now -- ordered 14. They all lived, but 2 are roosters. So we just have a rooster to some friends and he was very upset by it as were the chickens we kept. Anyway, it's making me think about the meat chickens a bit more. We have intended to have a little meat chicken breeding program here, but now I wonder if we should just buy some boys (they are about 25 cents each typically) and go through cycles like that. I would have a hard time parting a mom from her child. Of course, the reality of the chicks that you buy in the feed store is that they have been parted from their mommas, you just don't do it yourself so you don't think about it. Oh, the many reasons for a vegetarian diet. Too bad you can't get animal fat from eggplant.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Just sitting around waiting for the kefir verdict from mamaMAMAma.

tap tap
tap

Anyone else need kefir grains? I've got 3 cups or more now. We go through at least a quart a day here.

Anyone have an extra kombucha mushroom? We had one many years ago but apparently it got composted in an over-zealous attempt to clean the refrigerator.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

GaleForce,

I know a lady here in CO that has Kombucha 'babies' occasionally to mail out. PM me your email and I can put you in touch with her.

Suse,

Yours should arrive any day/time now. It was mailed on Monday. She asks me to confirm when you get it, so she won't worry.









I made Kefir cheese and spiced it with garlic, some 'spike', sea salt and cumin. It reminds me of 'Neufchatel' (sp) spread cheese. It's Oh so yummy.

RAF,

I'm finally making some Beef Jerky in my dehydrator (I'm using ground buffalo) that I spiced with Soy, Garlic and a tiny bit of black pepper and sea salt. I made thin 'patties' and just laid them on the racks (used two racks) of my Ronco dehydrator. I was worried that it wouldn't be a 'marinade' for the meat, just seasoning. If you read this, how do you know when they are dry enough and 'safe' to use?

TTYL


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
We have intended to have a little meat chicken breeding program here, but now I wonder if we should just buy some boys (they are about 25 cents each typically) and go through cycles like that. I would have a hard time parting a mom from her child. Of course, the reality of the chicks that you buy in the feed store is that they have been parted from their mommas, you just don't do it yourself so you don't think about it. Oh, the many reasons for a vegetarian diet. Too bad you can't get animal fat from eggplant.

We had one of our layers hatch out a nest of eggs and after about 6 weeks, most of the chicks were no longer hanging out with her. Any ones that still wanted to be with her she would peck away and drive off. So after this time, they are independent chickens (at least in the mama's eyes!). This seems to be pretty standard behavior for mama chickens from what I've heard. We got about 4 roosters in her batch of 14 babies, so our laying flock will be thankfully increasing, as we did not have enough before.

It's a good idea to keep the meat birds separate because it affects the pecking order when you cull a chicken, which could cause the layers to stop laying temporarily. Although we don't do that at the moment because we don't have our land separated like that yet.

LOL about the eggplant!







:


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Refering to the 'animal fats from an _egg_plant...' :LOL Like protein from an egg...









We get breastmilk from big round coconuts... *Ok, so a similar medium chain fat*

Can you think of any more? :LOL (This is making me laugh so hard I woke up the baby...haha)


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

galeforce: Sorry it took a while. Well, the kefir is sitting in the frig. I haven't tried it yet. I was going to try it yesterday, but dh has this big interview today and I didn't want dd#2 to be grouchy last night (in case she is sensitive to it). She was fussy last night anyways, so I could have tried it then!
I had a little taste just now, and ah.. I probably can't drink it straight.







I'm off smoothies because of my low carb diet, so I think I'll make some cream cheese with it. Then I can put the whey in our morning porridge.

The grains are still in the kefir, I don't really know how to separate it. All my sieves are stainless steel. And I don't have those garlic wrapper things that xenabyte was talking about. DD#2 just woke up.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaMAMAma*
The grains are still in the kefir, I don't really know how to separate it. All my sieves are stainless steel. And I don't have those garlic wrapper things that xenabyte was talking about. DD#2 just woke up.


If you don't have any 'onion/garlic' bags, do you have a plastic screw on lid for a mason jar? You could poke a few holes in the top with an ice pick or a nail and hammer. Just make a bunch of them so the kefir drains through, but not your grains. (I was contemplating this before I saw the garlic sitting on my counter and thought about the 'netting').

Also, if you just HAVE to strain it, just use your stainless steel strainer, just don't rinse the grains, and put them back into a clean 'brew' container and add fresh milk. There will only be contact with the grains on the bottom side and leaving some kefir on them should insulate them enough to not cause any problems.

The dom says you can use a cotton 'doily' that is about the right 'weave', but I tried this and the grains stuck to the cotton pretty badly, but I picked them off gently. I also washed the doily in SUPER hot water, and fluff dried to make sure it was sterlie, before using it to strain.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks xenabyte. I'll poke some homes in a ziplock tonight and see if it works. Then I'll give your cream cheese recipe a try.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Okay, I didn't wait till tonight. I'm glad I didn't, don't want dh to witness what a klutz I am. He's been asking me why I'm doing this.. why not just buy kefir from the store.







: I didn't poke the holes large enough so the kefir wasn't going down, so I poked holes in another bag because I didn't want the stainless steel fork to disturb the grains...

I have clumps of stuff (grains I guess?), but I don't have individual grains. Did I kill them? Then I tried doing the cream cheese without reading NT. So now I have a cheese cloth (flat diaper) over a sieve and milk dripping down. I thought whey is supposed to be clear? not milk like? Thats when I picked up the book. I guess I'm supposed to let the kefir sit a day or 2 until it separates before doing the sieve/cheese cloth? Any tips? I'm very excited about this, I hope my body, dd#1 and dd#2's can tolerate this form of dairy.

Better go clean up the kitchen / evidence. Dh is coming home early.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
Refering to the 'animal fats from an _egg_plant...' :LOL Like protein from an egg...









We get breastmilk from big round coconuts... *Ok, so a similar medium chain fat*

Can you think of any more? :LOL (This is making me laugh so hard I woke up the baby...haha)

what about the idea of getting EFA's from flax oil, a very fishy-tasting substance? :LOL


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

you know, i am lazy as all get out & i just pour around the kefir clumps & fish out any that fall in with a spoon. it's not like a small clump that gets in is harmful, kwim? i have not strained it in any fashion since i've had it. i wouldn't sweat it.

where am i missing the coconut/eggplant joke?

jerky just needs to be dryish/flexible; i haven't had any spoil on me yet. (i'm anxious to try the ground/pemmican version; my babies always liked to gnaw the stuff too.)

goatlady, my goat lady has been v understanding & came with eggs & milk i paid her for in nickels, lol. (boy that milk went fast- we had mexican hot chocolate- slap me, it was 'abuelita', a nestle brand, not 'ibarra', but it was sooo goatilicious on a rainy day.)

suse


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

mamamama,

I have large 'Kefir clumps/grains' also. My kefir gets pretty thick by next day (probably because I have not 'thinned the grains' since I got them).

I just swirl the jar to kinda break it up and free the grains that might be surrounded in 'clingy curds', pour off the kefir into a new jar and add more milk to my 'original lumps' in the brew jar. I wash the jar out every other day or so. I think I loose a few 'little ones' occasionally too when straining.

If you let the Kefir you poured off sit in fridge a day, it will start to seperate into a 'yellowish, clear' whey and the 'curds' will start to cling together. If you let it set at room temp for another day, it will form your 'curds' even faster! But I usually let it do it's thing in the fridge.

I pour this in my cheesecloth and while I get some kefir milk in the whey (tiny amount that settles to bottom), most forms a nice mass of 'cream cheese' in the cloth.

I added garlic, cumin, 'spike' and some sea salt to last batch. I swear it was like 'Neufchatel' herbed cheese!

hth


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
where am i missing the coconut/eggplant joke?

just silliness, GaleForce started it with her "Too bad you can't get animal fats from an eggplant" comment. So then xenabyte was seeing the humor in trying to get an animal food from an _egg_ plant, added to it by saying you can get breastmilk from a coconut (high in lauric acid) which also looks somewhat breast-like, then I tried hard with my fishy flax oil comment which I'm not sure if anyone got. I think we're all drunk on kefir here.







:


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Hello, everyone.
I'm new to the Nt diet and am trying to ease my family into it. I am no where near ready to start fermenting, but we have been getting better milk and butter, and soaking nuts, seeds, and grains. People seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience on this site, so I hope I'll be able to get some of my questions answered.

We live in Scotland, where the traditional diet is closer to NT than the American diet of the 70's and 80's that I grew up with. For instance, adults drink whole milk here, slather butter on everything, and eat the fat off their lamb chops. Scotland also has the highest rate of heart disease in the world, though...

Despite that, I'm off to dry some seeds. I can't get my oven below around 200 degrees, though, and wonder if this is detrimental to nuts and seeds. Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Hi Catarina! Welcome!

If the people in Scotland are doing homogenized milk products, even if they are whole, then it could lead to heart disease. Also, any trans-fats in the diet are also artery-clogging. And animal products from animals that are fed predominately grain feeds have different fat composition than grass-fed animals. So perhaps some of these factors may be the cause of high rates of heart disease.

I actually eat less animal product than NT prescribes because I feel more comfortable that way, a lot of people on this thread do varying levels of animal product according to their needs. I am a big proponent of lots of vegetable matter for minerals and alkalizing the body, and prefer a produce-dominant (but still omnivorous) diet. But I have great respect for what NT is all about, and generally follow the guidelines.

Do you have reliable sunshine where you live? You can spread your seeds out on a tray and then dry them outdoors, it just takes a little bit longer but actually is better for preserving enzymes. If not though, just put them in the oven as low as it goes and keep checking them so they don't burn. My opinion is that the most important thing is getting rid of the phytic acid as opposed to trying to preserve the enzymes, if I had to choose between the two.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
Anyone else need kefir grains? I've got 3 cups or more now. We go through at least a quart a day here.

Hey Gale Force, I would really love to try some Kefir grains, do you think they's be all right shipped to NY?

I wish I had something to add to all the trading, the only thing I've got growing around here is some green slime on the concrete in my "courtyard" from all the rain this summer.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Thanks for the advice about my seeds. We have reliable rain here, not reliable sunshine. I can't even dry clothes outside - I dry them on a big rack that gets pulleyed up to the ceiling. If I put seeds on the bottom shelf and leave the oven door ajar, it seems to keep the temperature down to 175-200. They are fine, but a bit toasty because I was out of the house. Nuts and seeds taste really good when they are toasted, but I always thought that it was healthier to eat them raw so that the oils weren't damaged.

Raw milk is illegal in Scotland, but we can get some good organic Jersey milk which is non-homogenised, and only lightly pasturised - I know they all say that, but the milk really does go "bad" quickly and in a nice sour way, and it tastes very sweet and delicious compared to normal milk. The cows are pastured most of the year.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

NT mamas, I need some help. I was trying to make my own chicken stock, so I took some bones, some celery, and some herbs, and boiled them together til they were reduced. Then I put it in the fridge, to let the fat harden so I could skim it off and keep the liquid underneath. Except the liquid has turned to jello! I know there is gelatin in bones, and I know the NT tradition says it's good for you. But I wanted to freeze it, and save it for later. But how do you get something of this consistency into an ice cube tray??? And if I heated it up again, would it become liquid so I could freeze it? Help me please!


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

yes it will liquidify into the most tasty stock you ever tasted. You did it just perfect









Just gently reheat until liquid, then pour into your ice cube trays to freeze.









sorry naking


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
GaleForce,

RAF,

I'm finally making some Beef Jerky in my dehydrator (I'm using ground buffalo) that I spiced with Soy, Garlic and a tiny bit of black pepper and sea salt. I made thin 'patties' and just laid them on the racks (used two racks) of my Ronco dehydrator. I was worried that it wouldn't be a 'marinade' for the meat, just seasoning. If you read this, how do you know when they are dry enough and 'safe' to use?

TTYL

Hello, sorry I took so long to reply... you have probably already started eating it by now. Anyway, I don't know what you mean by 'safe", but I just wait until it is dry enough to my liking. I eat raw meat sometimes, so I guess my standards of 'safe' might be a bit different than someone else's.







I have never put any spices or marinates in my dried meat, so I don't have any advice there. Hopefully, your patties you made were really, really thin, otherwise it can be difficult to bite into. We roll it out really flat in a big square dehydrator tray, so it is like pancake thin. Is that how you did it? So how did it turn out?


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## wasatchmom (Jan 20, 2004)

hi everyone. i'm happy to join the NT party here! i'm a total newbie, but i made sour cream and whey from my yogurt tonight and then made my own ketchup with the whey. since dd and dh like to smother their food with ketchup, i'm excited at the prospect of having some healthy ketchup. anyone made the NT ketchup recipe? i'm wondering how it will turn out after the two days of fermenting. do i seal the mason jar during these two days or leave it open? i made the mayo last week and was really pleased with how easy and tasty it was!


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasatchmom*
hi everyone. i'm happy to join the NT party here! i'm a total newbie, but i made sour cream and whey from my yogurt tonight and then made my own ketchup with the whey. since dd and dh like to smother their food with ketchup, i'm excited at the prospect of having some healthy ketchup. anyone made the NT ketchup recipe? i'm wondering how it will turn out after the two days of fermenting. do i seal the mason jar during these two days or leave it open? i made the mayo last week and was really pleased with how easy and tasty it was!


Hello wasatchmom,

welcome to the NT party! I have made the ketchup and really love it. You do seal the jar for the time you leave it out and when you put it in the fridge. The longer it is in the fridge, the better it gets too! Anyway, congrats on starting the NT journey.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RAF*
Hello, sorry I took so long to reply... you have probably already started eating it by now. [cut] So how did it turn out?









That beef jerky lasted a whole hour in this house....so yes, I guess it was good....

We are making more tonight. I was going to bed early, but the smell is keeping me awake. I told the DH to keep an eye on it, but I'm afraid I might not get any in the morning if I leave it up to him to keep his 'eye' on it...and his hands..and...

Haha! I mean safe as in storing at room temp in a glass jar for longer term storage (like that'll happen) without getting funny stuff growing on it.

Eating and tast sampling of the first batch started kinda early, and since it was SOOOO tasty, there wasn't much left to test 'putting in a storage container'.

I just made really thin, little hamburger shaped patties and laid them on the racks. They eventually looked like store bought jerky and while I let them get slighty on the dry side, they were awesome tasting.









Thanks again!!!!!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

lol, you *could* get drunk on my goat kefir, it's getting a bit ripe! (my dh mentioned paint thinner, but it tastes better than it smells. i think it's time to start a new batch







)

re: scotland- i'm guessing it's more the deep-fried mars bars... the only scottish boyfriend i had ate like *crap*, pure pepsi & junk food. i imagine in the country (& where there is more money) people eat better, more fresh food- i'd like to see those heart disease demographics broken down by income & region.

cat, did raw milk become illegal with the eu, or was it before then? i know my seed-swappers have had the devil of a time since those regulations took effect. imagine the government telling you what varieties of plants you may grow- oh, THAT will promote biodiversity... but i digress.









suse


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

I don't think the raw milk thing is connected with the EU because it is still legal in England. I need to find out more about the Scottish health problem, and as you say, break it down by income and region. I feel very positive about the NT diet for my children, but my husband is 41 and his own father, and many of his friend's fathers, died really young. Where can one find research-based health information that's not contaminated by the interests of drug companies, the agriculture industries, and dieticians' articles of faith? But I'm not yet losing my own NT faith. I dragged the kids to the Nice Milk shop today at 4:45 and where we waited until it closed, at 5:15, when the milk delivery guy finally showed up, and we got our 4 litres of milk. And I made some spelt soda bread, having soaked the flour with yogurt for 24 hours, but I found it hard mixing the leavening ingredients into a fairly dry dough - I think it would work better with a muffin or banana bread type batter, so I'll try that next


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Sorry to jump in your 'Scottish' conversation, but what is it with Scottish men?

My best friend, a 'Campbell' had the WORST diet I've ever seen. He'd eat BAGS of chips, candy and drink Dr. Pepper ALL DAY LONG! I told him he'd die young if he continued with that diet and he's since amended some of his ways...

Suse,

How's the Kombucha doing, I just got mine today. I'm brewing up some green tea atm. It's caffeine free stuff, but that's ok, aye? I am trying to read up fast as it's sitting in it's little baggie staring out at me wanting a nice new home...


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

see my post on the kombucha thread









say, we don't have any diana galbaldon fans here, do we?







(i know we were thick at the last highland games i went to, lol.) or sharyn mccrumb, 'highland laddie gone', hmmmnnn...

still the queen of ot, suse


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I need my Jamie and Claire fix..when's the next book due out???? I do like reading about her 'herbal' attempts to cure things back then. Kinda sounds like she's living like us NTers are trying to do (see, there, now it's IT, not OT)

So is caffeine free tea ok for the Kombucha?


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i would imagine so- the inimitable sandor katz (again) mentions his friends doing it in mountain dew, but then again, that has caffeine, lol! (i really can't imagine why anything other than the sugar to feed on would be of import.)

next book- next book- next book (if we chant loud enough she will write faster.)

(i actually have 'lord john & the succubus', a short story in a sci-fiction compilation, right now- i'll tell you how it is when i'm done!)

suse


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Speaking of Scottish men, I heard a saying once,

'Oats aren't the only thing Scottish men and Horses have in common....' - in reply to a snide English comment about Scots eating Oats and how they are only fit for being 'Horse' food....

BTW, my hubby has alot of Scottish blood in him, Clan Skene...







Supposedly an ancestor saved a King from a wild boar attack with this tiny knife, called a sgian (skene) and the King sent his falcon up and said where ever it lands, I'll grant you the land and build you a 'castle' for your good deed.

The in laws have visited this "Skene House" a few times, man, I'd LOVE to go visit Scotland, and the surrounding Isles!


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I just made a double batch of chicken liver pate and woner if it'd freeze well. Anyone tried it, or just an educated guess?


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

morsan, I don't see why not, I think chicken liver pate would freeze just fine.

I had a question for any mamas who have had babies on a deficient diet, then babies on an NT-style diet. What differences did you notice, if any? Of course teeth would be better, but what about hair condition (brittleness, rate of growth), any allergies, teething pains, general fussiness, anything like that? I am wondering how much that is taken for granted as genetic is actually nutritionally related. Totally informal, but fun to talk about.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Very interested in the "baby comparison" as well!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

hrheka,

PM your name and address to me and I'll ship it out in a couple of days. It had been over 100 degrees here and I would hesitate to ship the grains to the east coast, but it's cooler now and they are pretty resilient.

Anyone else for *kefir grains*?

I'm working on meeting a couple of deadlines so I have not really been around. I'm looking forward to normalcy again soon. take care everyone.

Oh, and thanks on the kombucha offer. My mom tells me we might have a friend locally with some, so I'll follow up there first.


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Hi,

DD is now 8 months old. Up to now, she's just been having a few spoonfuls of solids here and there, but I think it's time I got a bit more organized about it.

I have a question about cereal grains. NT says "not during the first year," because the baby's pancreas isn't producing much amylase yet. I was planning to follow this advice -- especially since I have a grain allergy myself, but it turns out that DD really likes the stuff! She'll only eat the recommended foods, like liver and egg yolk, if I mix them with pureed rice.

Then I found out that many traditional societies give fermented cereal gruels to babies who are just a few months old (rather than 12 months old, as it says at www.westonaprice.org). And babies start producing amylase at 6 or 7 months...so it seems reasonable to assume that they're able to eat _some_ starches. In fact, if the cereal in DD's bowl touches the saliva from her spoon, it gets all thin and soupy within a few minutes.

Besides, there's amylase in breast milk. And I usually nurse her just before the feeding, or mix EBM with the cereal.

So, assuming I use soaked grains, and give them to her in moderation...do you think there's a problem?


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Hmm. I just realized I'm not "supposed" to be giving her vegetables until 10 months. I guess I flunk NT child-rearing!







:

Her favorite foods are rice, chicken, sardines, salmon, avocado, carrots, broccoli, apples, and peaches. Everything is pureed, except the fish and avocado, which are just mashed with a fork. She also enjoys her all-rice teething biscuits.

Her least favorite foods are bananas, pears, beef, sweet potatoes, and parsnips.

When it's not convenient to hand-express, I've started adding a little raw butter, cream, or cow's milk to the purees, for the extra nutrition and enzymes. She seems to be tolerating this fine. I'd rather be using raw goat's milk, though.

BTW, does anyone have a recipe for a "kefir smoothie" that I could share with her? No citrus, berries, nuts, seeds, honey, soy, or raw egg, please. (Even if I separate the egg, the yolk always seems to have some white stuck to it.)


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

maybe just blend up a banana (since she likes that already) with some Kefir/yogurt. Thin with some filtered water. It seems like it would be kinda thick for her otherwise.

I tried the '3.5 minute' egg cook thing. When I broke it, EVERYTHING ran out...both were still too soft.

Anyone else find this to be true?


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xenabyte*
maybe just blend up a banana (since she likes that already) with some Kefir/yogurt. Thin with some filtered water. It seems like it would be kinda thick for her otherwise.

Actually, bananas are on her "dislike" list. (Weird...I thought all babies liked them.) But I could use peaches or apricots.









Quote:

I tried the '3.5 minute' egg cook thing. When I broke it, EVERYTHING ran out...both were still too soft.
IME, eggs are kind of unpredictable. They can take longer to cook if they're very fresh, or if you're at a high altitude, or - obviously - if they're larger, or straight from the fridge.

I usually put the egg in an eggcup, break the top off, and peek inside. If it's not done, I put the "lid" back on for 45 seconds or so. There's usually enough heat inside the egg to finish cooking it.

BTW, here's a wealth of scientific information about eggs: http://newton.ex.ac.uk/teaching/CDHW/egg/


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

toraji- the questions you raised about nutritionally related "differences" in children are really interesting. Ds has very brittle hair which is so beautiful I don't want to cut it, but it keeps getting so tangled I might have to anyways. It seems weird (from a natural perspective) that hair requires hair conditioner to untangle. We stopped using shampoo but so far it hasn't made a difference. I wonder what nutrient deficiency is related to hair growth, it took him a long time to grow his hair. He also took an exceptionally long time to outgrow his soft spot on the head. A homeopath acqueitance of mine mentioned he is not absorbing calcium well enough. I'm sure we're both rather deficient in calcium.
Which raises another question, how do NT'ers who do not tolerate dairy get their calcium and how do you know when you're getting enough? I refuse to take any synthetic or whole food "derived" calcium. I try to make stock regularly, but how much do I need to consume daily to get enough calcium? Fallon recommends using azomite powder, anyone tried it? I saw some at the nursery in town, but I wonder if there are different grades of it.
Speaking of children, does anyone know of any books that discuss tribal eating habits in children specifically? Right now I'm reading a couple of books about the hunzakuts. There are great references to what they eat at different times of the day (although nothing specific about child-feeding).


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

My middle dd was vegan for the first 2 1/2 yrs. She was petite & healthy but did have a noticeable overbite when her teeth came in. She does have excema but only very minor & was generally a bad sleeper. Once I got her on the fish oil, raw milk etc. She suddenly grew. Almost overnight. Her teeth seem to be straightening up quite a bit too. She never had tooth decay. Her hair has always been beautiful & thick & very curly.

dd#3 has been on the NT-type diet since she was a few months old. Indirectly at first obviously. In fact the whole reason I discovered NT was coz dd#3 got chronic colic when I ate legumes. Raw milk was the most acceptable ethical substitute I could find. I tried rice milk with dd#2 & my hair fell out. She sleeps badly. Still at 14 months old is yet to sleep longer than about 3 hrs. She gets a touch of excema too behind one of her knees & under her neck roll. However, I think her teeth are pretty straight. She is my baldiest baby in that she still has hardly any hair. What is there is shiny & soft. She does have beautiful skin tho' & the most amamzing long eye lashes. With teething, she never does any of the dribbling or staying up all night screaming either. The way I can tell is she starts biting real bad.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm thinking that the pregnancy diet has a huge impact on the child. From what I've heard, if you are deficient during pregnancy, certain things will not form correctly. This seems to be true based on observations of friends and their children, and what they ate during pregnancy.

DD has beautiful hair, so whatever controls that factor was good with me during pregnancy. I think I was deficient in EFAs and Vitamin D, which manifested as eczema and tooth decay. This is all just a guess though.

Despite my philosophical objections, I am supplementing with a calcium/magnesium/phosporus pill. I've noticed a huge difference since taking it, my legs get restless and somewhat crampy if I don't. I've been doing a lot of research on soil health, and from what I understand our soils are not as nutrified as they used to be, and even organic vegetables are not well-fortified. Some people have started to use a Brix refractometer to gauge the quality of produce (I'm hoping to get one soon), and we've been pumping our veggies full of minerals in the form of kelp meal, dolomite, and trace mineral fertilizer. I'm hoping to get our home grown crops full of minerals and be able to kick out the pill supplement.

the key to getting enough minerals in your diet is vegetables, vegetables, vegetables. The animal food is very important to keep things in balance, but they don't give you many minerals. Try simmering dark leafy greens like collard or kale in your bone broth and see if that makes a difference, as well as upping your consumption of fresh vegetables. I have been very into the Garden of Eating Diet book lately.







http://www.thegardenofeatingdiet.com


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## Bohemian (Jul 24, 2004)

Hi there. I am just learning about NT and have been reading old posts. WOW so much to learn.

We are just moving away from the American mainstream way of eating. I'm having to go really slow with my family so as to avert total resistance







. We are only eating organic and have not found a source for raw milk.

Does anyone have any encouraging stories about your NT path? Any suggestions for snacks for kids who are a bit resistant for change?

Thanks in advance.

PS
I would love to live in Scotland someday


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

bohemian-
I've been cooking NT way since my son was born in late April. I live in a rural area and still have not found a source of raw milk. I have been buying organic non-homoginized milk. Here are some snacks I give my daughter - a banana, a peach, a piece of cheese, a slice of sprouted grain bread (bought from the store) toasted with honey and butter. Goats milk cheese wrapped in a sprouted grain tortilla. I also hate to admit to this but I have some organic all natural fruit leather that I will give her on special occasions. I've made the peanut cookies, very good, but my oven will not cook below 170. . . so I cook the peanuts for a shorter time. Also last but not least, I've made her fried mush (oatmeal with egg) and she really liked that.

As far as my husband, he has been away for business, and I found a bunch of snickers and gatoraid in his bag when he came back.







Yuck! (but he has been sick frequently and me and the kids have not been sick since we began NT.)


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

My five-year old son loves milk and is really excited about high-fat milk. So I have no problem getting dairy fat into him as a snack. He won't eat seeds or nuts though, except peanut butter. He eats this regularly and I worry about the phytic acid. Has anyone made peanut butter with soaked peanuts? I don't have a food processor.

My 2 year old daughter loves "seeds": I folllow the NT recipe for pumpkin seeds but use a mixture of flax, sesame, sunflower, and pumpkin. It makes a big batch which I keep in a jar in the fridge. The flax seeds make them all clump together which makes then easier to eat.

They both eat soaked oatmeal porridge with whole milk and unrefined sugar in the mornings. This took a lot of work because they and their father prefer special K, plus the 5-year-old can get breakfast himself if it's a cold cereal. Maybe that's why cold cereals have always been so popular. It is very quick and easy to do, though. I soak the oats, water, and a few big spoons of yogurt in the cooking pan on the stove overnight, and in the morning, put in a pinch of salt and bring it to the boil, when it thickens. I hope this sounds ok to those of you who have been eating this way for a long time.

Catarina


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## spyiispy (Jul 23, 2002)

Ahhhh, you guys give me the warm fuzzies







I haven't been on Mothering for awhile. Just get discouraged with how mainstream it has become (not in a good way). But when I read the NT thread.....I become encouraged again. I have a favor to ask.......I have three pregnant friends who would like kombucha starts. I only have one baby right now and the mamas would like the kombucha to stem the nausea. One is a vegan mama is pregnant with twins (yikes, I know). Would anyone volunteer to send a kombucha baby to one of these ladies? I need two volunteers.

Bohemian......I know what ya mean about the family revolt. Luckily, mine are small and I can sneak things into their food without any protest. The big kid (my husband) is the tough one. But, I started NT with making kefir. Easy stuff.....could get ya some starter grains if you want. I just throw it in smoothies.

Lisa


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Hi spyispy







Does kombucha really work for nausea in pg? I wish I had known!!! I s'pose it make sense as most nausea is a liver thing. I have bulk kombucha babies but I doubt MAF would like me if I started posting them around the world.

Hey Catarina! My grandad was scottish. He came from Pennan. It is a truly beautiful place but it is too cold for me.

A ? for you all. What do you do with bone broths. I insist on making stock every time dh & the kids have something with a bone in. I now have heaps but I have no idea what to do with it. We don't do much soup as dh reckons it's not a meal & it's a bit messy for the kids. I make the odd gumbo or stew but that is it. dh loves the korean beef soup recipe in NT so I use all my bone broths there, but I can only make it so many times.

Also, & I cannot believe I am asking this







, how do you all cook liver ? yikes! I have a very vague memory of my aunty telling me she soaked hers overnight in milk. I can get decent organic liver so I wanted to cook some for the kids.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

I did a bit of lurking here before our move 3mos ago. I'm so glad to find you all again. It's been an isolating 3 mos.
OceanMama- We're not big liver fans so I've been grinding it up and sneaking it into meatloaf and burgers. If anyone has other suggestions I'd love to here them too! DH and I are planning to detox then start trying for another







:
I'm also interested in the kombucha tea for morning sickness. I had a lot of that with dd and couldn't hold down meat or dairy








Bohemian- I make loads of waffles and pancakes then freeze them. We eat lots of cheese and fermented bread, fruits, veggies and occasionally beef jerky. It takes lots of baby steps otherwise would get overwhelmed making the transition.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I love my NT cook book but I will not touch another Kombucka mushroom. When I was about 16, my mother and I drank a lot of kombucka for a few months. Shortly after that I developed chronic fatigue so bad that I missed 6 months of school (It is only recently that I am not bothered by this everyday) and my mother was diagnosed with fibromyalgia (sp) and psyaratic-arthritis that left her in a wheel chair until she saw a naturopath who helped her feel "normal" again. I am not trying to scare anyone, I don't know if this was an allergy or if it was coincidence, I don't know if the mushroom was contaminated (I don't think so) or what but I thought I would share this with all of you.

If anyone else has had something like this happen, let me know.

Catarina - thank you for the "seeds" recipe. I will try it on my 2 year old.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Try the ginger ale for nausea

I make a bone broth every week. But I make soups with it. Try the minestrone soup but put rice noodles in it and serve it with some sprouted grain bread with butter. If you make it really thick and serve it with bread wedges and a pile of grated white cheddar on top, then maybe you can pass it off as a meal to your husband. Mine is really picky!! But this works









I think the trick is to make sure that it's a hearty soup with plenty of veggies and or meat.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

I had a ob tell me once to steer clear of blue cheese. She said in some cases women have miscarriages due to the bacteria in the cheese. Adults can handle it but an unborn baby can't. Has anyone else heard of this?
Oh well, the last time I had kombucha I wasn't super crazy about it. I'd rather stick to my raw milk. Hopefully I'll be able to keep it down inthe next pg.
As for the broth ideas, I have two dogs on a raw diet, so they get some of it. I do make a lot of soups too but I usually serve them as a side to a meal or dd and I eat them at lunch. Could you make some nice sauces to put on meats or veggies?
Does anyone here use a daily vit? and what about prenatal vit?
Thanks


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Yes, pregnant women are supposed to steer clear of soft and veiny cheeses, as they may contain the listeria bacteria. My midwife told me to just be sure to avoid it in the last trimester when I asked if I MUST avoid them!

I was never able to manage a prenatal vitamin for various reasons. I didn't sweat it, though people seemed very surprised if I told them!


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yitlan*
I was never able to manage a prenatal vitamin for various reasons. I didn't sweat it, though people seemed very surprised if I told them!

Thanks for the cheese info. So if you didn't use any prenatal vits what was your diet like? I ask because I've been following the NT guidlines for the past year. Now to be honest I have only done some fermented veggies and lately I have not been soaking grains (I lack preplanning skills, but working on that)
But I still feel quite tired and my daughter and I are still suffering from little colds and sinus congestion. Where as dh, the junk fod junkie rarely gets sick.
I found the Brewer diet and will try to keep up with that.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Well, I didn't discover NT until after my last pregnancy, so I can't really help regarding that. I just ate the best I could and did take iron at the end b/c my level was REALLY low. Lots of calcium (well, with what I now know about raw milk, I hope I got lots of calcium back then!) and as much protein as I could muster.

Sorry I am not more of a help!


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

I just bought some butter which the woman in the cheese shop assures me is unpasturised. It is bright yellow, and quite strong smelling - I think is smells cheesy. when I scrape off the outer, oxidised layer, it is a bit less strong. Is this what I should expect from grass-fed butter? what do people think fresh butter should smell like?


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

bright yellow is a good sign. It means that the animal was eating lots of fresh green grasses as opposed to the faded yellow that you get with hay/grain.

cheesy smell usually means that things are starting to ferment. The butter may have been cultured before being turned into butter, it apparently helps to coagulate the fat globules together.

As for the strong smell, I went straight from being vegan to eating raw cow butter, and I thought it smelled really strong. Essence of cow, LOL!

Usually taste is a good indicator, if it tastes bad, then throw it out. But most likely it's still good, butter lasts a fairly long time.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi everyone...

I did not take a prenatal either. I ate daily raw goat milk youghurt, raw milk swiss and lots of fermented veg.

I also made sure I ate a large plate of steamed leafy greens and brocolli.

As well I brewed a very strong root tea comprised from several iron/calcium/mineral rich roots and mixed that with juiced dandelion root, wild cherry juice and chlorrophly (sp?)

I wanted to ask where you all got your "Wild Fermentation" book and you "NT book"?

I have been reading all your posts here and on the daily diary of eating thread and I would really like to read up furthur about NT. I kind of stummbled upon these threads and it seems I am doing much of the concepts already. But there are some things I am doing that are in conflict with the NT ideas.

I can't really call myself a vegetarian anymore and I am not really looking for a label persay but it would be good to have some more nutritional guidance about fermentation. We eat a very large portion of our food in its raw state.

Anyhow I am rammbling.

Thanks in advance for the info.
Colleen


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

forgot to answer some questions:
about soaked nut butters: we follow the crispy nuts method minus the salt, then process in a food processor until they release their oils and butter up. I'm not quite sure how to do it without a food processor. Perhaps a grinder or hand mill? Or maybe in the blender in small batches but you'd probably have to add a little oil to help it along.

about liver: I like it best ground up into sausage with lots of spices, otherwise it's too strong flavored for me. Although last week we got a lamb liver and it was quite mild. We prepared it like this:
peeled membrane off liver
cut into small cubes
sauteed onions and peppers in a wok
added liver cubes, sauteed to lightly brown
added tomato juice to make a sauce
seasoned with garlic, salt, pepper, and hot sauce
--the sauce came out too runny so the next day when I re-heated it, I first made a roux with olive oil and flour then added the liver with the runny sauce. It thickened right up.
Pretty tasty, but I still like the sausage better.

You can get Wild Fermentation direct from the author at http://www.wildfermentation.com/. Or you can order it through your local bookstore or Amazon.

Nourishing Traditions is pretty much everywhere (they carry it at my co-op!), you can get it from the Price-Pottenger Foundation at http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/index.php?cPath=23 or order it through the bookstore or Amazon.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Ladies -- I have had so little on line time in the last month, I feel like I am totally out of touch. I just finished two reports and am doing some on-line ordering. Finally.

Cooking liver: we rinse it well and soak it in lemon juice, sautee onions, set aside, strain liver, coat with flour/salt/pepper mixture, sautee in heated skillet (med heat) for about 2 minutes each side, add hot water, turn down as low as possible, cover, cook for another 4 minutes or so. Take liver out, make gravy, put liver back in with gravy, cover with onions, add salt as necessary. Cooking time will vary with thickness. Ours tends to be about 1/4 inch thick when raw.

We have noticed a big energy boost with liver in our diet. We get it from Whole Foods for about $3.50/lb. It only takes 1/4 pound or less for an entree, so it's not that expensive as far as meat is concerned, and certainly less so than organic meat.


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## TopazBlueMama (Nov 23, 2002)

Hey ya'll! Guess what, I'm so excited, I'm going to be able to go to the WAP conference! Is anyone else going? It's in Arlington, and now that I'm only about 4 hours away from there I can go to these sorts of things, I'm way excited about this.
Things have been crazy lately so I've gotten out of the NT swing of things, but hopefully I'll be able to get back on soon. I located a chapter leader so I'll be able to get some info on the area and sources, and I ordered some more cod liver oil and am going to try taking chlorella for a supplement for a little while.
My fertility will probably be returning soon and I really would like to prepare my body and grow a wonderfully healthy baby with perfect teeth.














Not to mention my childrens diet is in need of much improvement lately.
Wish me luck getting my behind back in gear again!


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

So we've pretty much settled into our new place and I've started a bunch of fermentation projects. I even I have my first batch of kefir brewing (thanks to Gale Force!!). I came across a bunch of big glass containers so I've decided to try some NT beverages. The first two finished (orangina & ginger ale) they both came out very salty, I suspected this would be the case but wanted to see how salty before I started messing with the recipes.

So my question is have any others of you tried any of these drinks? Does anyone know why they call for so much salt and how much I could reduce it?

Thanks.


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## Bohemian (Jul 24, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestions on easing the family into it. I some times feel overwhelmed with all the information.

We've finally found a good source for milk/cream/and butter so I'm excited to start fermenting. I made pickles the other day and they should be done soon.

My 11yo dd has been complaining that there is "nothing good to eat" in the house. Then I saw her heating up some leftover chicken for a sandwich in the cast iron pan. So NT is actually helping her learn to cook for herself







.

They all love the whole milk.

One question I have is about weight loss. I'm overweight and have found that this new way of eating makes me feel fuller but I wonder about how I'm going to lose weight eating this way. Has anyone struggled with this? Of course I could always eat less







. Thanks in advance.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I couldn't do the liver thing & ended up feeding it to the chooks.

The reason I am posting is I went to the dentist today for my annual visit. He only charged me $25 as he couldn't find any holes & didnt even think it was necessary to polish my teeth.

I've also finally found a decent way to compost all those left over stock bones. What I do is feed them to the chooks to pick clean ( unless they are chicken bones which creeps me out ). Then put them on the fire to burn. They burn real hot too. Most just burn to ash but if there are any bits left, you can just grind them down with your boot.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bohemian*
One question I have is about weight loss. I'm overweight and have found that this new way of eating makes me feel fuller but I wonder about how I'm going to lose weight eating this way. Has anyone struggled with this? Of course I could always eat less







. Thanks in advance.

I just joined WAPF and most people that comment on the weight issue say they actually lost some weight. Especially those taking a supplement of coconut oil. http://www.westonaprice.org/letters/spring04.html is one letter I came upon that might be encouraging. Scroll down to Real Food and Weight Loss.


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm new here and have a few questions. I found a biodynamic farm nearby where I can get raw milk, buttermilk, eggs, veggies, grains, etc. What I need to know is how to handle the milk. How long can I keep it in the fridge?
I'm pregnant and a bit wary of drinking "old" raw milk. My kids love the stuff and that it's straight from the cow.
Where can I go for more information in general about recipes and tips? Next week I want to try soaking grains in buttermilk for pancakes, etc. I'm also looking into buying a grain mill, but don't know what to look for.

Thanks!


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chocomoto*
What I need to know is how to handle the milk. How long can I keep it in the fridge?
I'm pregnant and a bit wary of drinking "old" raw milk.

I purchase my raw milk on a bimonthly basis. I get 4 gal. and keep them all refrigerated. IME the last half of my 4th gal has turned on me before it's gone. It doesn't always happen though. Unlike pasturized milk you will smell it when milk has gone sour. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told that even then it is not a danger it just doesn't taste great.
I get most of my recipes from the NT cookbook.
Hope that helps.

PS some freeze their milk but i have not had good results thawing it out.


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## aimeemac (Apr 17, 2002)

i just purchased the "nourishing traditions" cookbook and am awaiting it's arrival.

i am looking for a diet that will help w/ my children's eczema, tooth decay, moodiness, and sleep issues. So, i thought i'd give it a try.

what are your success stories w/ this diet? i would love to hear your stories.

Thanks.....Aimee


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## Bohemian (Jul 24, 2004)

I've been trying to bake some good bread for my family. I thought I'd try the blueberry muffins and the buttermilk biscuits. The cookbook recomended 45 min. for the muffins and I took them out at 30 because they were done.

The same day, I made buttermilk biscuits and the recipe said 40 minutes I baked them for 30 and they still came hard as rocks.

I'm using organic whole wheat flour and following the recipe's to a T, soaking the flours over night in buttermilk.

I've never baked with spelt or kamut. Are these flours not as dense as the ww? Could this be where my trouble is?

Thanks in advance.
Frustrated,


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bohemian*
The same day, I made buttermilk biscuits and the recipe said 40 minutes I baked them for 30 and they still came hard as rocks.

I've found that many of the cooking times in NT are way too long. What I have been doing with good results is following the NT recipe (for baked goods, chicken or anything else that requires the oven) and comparing the oven temp & cooking time to a more standard recipe (usually Fannie Farmer or Joy of Cooking). Most of the baked goods respond well to this as does chicken.

I'm not sure why the cooking times are so wacky in the recipes, I noticed this as soon as I got the book and have pretty much disregarded them.


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

Thanks for the info on the milk. I would not have thought it would keep that long, based on how long my breastmilk lasted in the fridge. That's the only other experience I've had with raw milk!
The farmers here recommended boiling it after 48 hours, but then that's not the point of buying raw milk.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chocomoto*
The farmers here recommended boiling it after 48 hours, but then that's not the point of buying raw milk.










I'm suprised they're selling it raw then recommending to boil it?! Are they familiar with NT?

Bohemian- I have had the same problem. I tend to blend recipes also and use the NT method to prepare but Bettey Crocker to cook


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

These are swiss biodynamic farmers and I don't think they have heard of NT. They are just living their traditional way of life. They have fresh milk everyday and aren't concerned with keeping it.
They look at me a bit funny for driving over there for the milk. They just accept it and don't ask too many questions.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I actually just read in The Garden of Eating Diet that boiled milk has a long tradition of use as a healing food. For some reason, if it is boiled and cooled quickly it is much better than pasteurized. Can't figure out why this makes sense though, but they claim that boiled milk products were used in the Bircher-Benner(sp?) clinic to feed to their patients.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

I don't have any trouble freezing milk, so I would give that a try at least once. I give it a good shake and pour out a couple of inches to give it room to expand, and later I thaw it overnight outside the fridge in a cool place. And what about making kefir and yogurt as a way of preserving milk? I have just got started making kefir and I am amazed at how easy it is, everything at room temperature and no special equipment. I can't get my husband to drink it yet ("Some bacteria you got through the post from a perfect stranger? No, thanks!") I don't have an idea yet of how long it keeps, though, or how to do it other than making a small amount everyday and drinking it up.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aimeemac*
what are your success stories w/ this diet? i would love to hear your stories.

Hmm...we are not doing a strict NT diet, we're doing more of a cross between NT and The Garden of Eating Diet (more vegetables, less salt and fat, but with raw dairy and properly prepared grains and including organ meats).
But we've noticed these changes so far:
-Stopping of rapid tooth decay in DD
-Stopping of tooth decay in DH and me, teeth whitening and gums stopping bleeding, teeth feeling more solid and les "wiggly"
-no more brain fog/PPD, increased thinking ability
-DH's back started bothering him much less and healing (2 ruptured discs, he was bedridden for a while)
-Increased muscle tone without increasing exercise, less "flabby"
-More stamina both physically and mentally
-DD started acting more mentally chipper and gaining weight
-Skin seems more "bouncy", less ashen, less pimples
-DH's cuticles finally healed and reattached after 12 years of problems
-Sleeping more soundly, used to have problems with insomnia
-Nails not brittle anymore
-Less problems with fatigue (still tired b/c it's hard to get enough sleep with a 2 year old around!)
-Less problems with DD's eczema, she used to have it really bad to the point of impetigo, now when she eats a trigger she only gets a few spots.

If I think of more I'll post again.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hi everyone,
I have a question....I want to make a bone broth to keep in the fridge for cooking grains and making soup ect.

My freezer absolutely does not keep things frozen enough to trust it with the broth so my question is how long will the broth keep in the fridge?

Thanks!

BTW...ordered my books yesterday!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

MM -- I'm guessing a week on the broth.

And a quick backstory on why I'm here: I had bad depression in pg and postpartum. Went through a long journey of discovering the biochemical cause and ended up here. The deficiencies I had were related to my vegan diet. And mind you, I wasn't a cookie, cracker, and chip vegan. I ate whole foods and followed a good diet. Needless to say, I was shocked. My reasons for becoming a vegan were health, so it was not difficult for me to make this transition. In the middle of all of this I had a systemic case of candida and was on a very strict no-sugar diet. I have this great driver's license photo taken one month after I began the candida diet. It arrived in the mail and I compared it to the pic I had taken when we first moved to California when I was a vegan. The difference was shocking. I just about cried. "You mean I have to stay on this diet forever?" boo hoo. My vegan picture looked much older, puffier, with poorer skin coloring. I was the same body weight in both and thought I was doing well as a vegan. "Uh oh," as Frederick would say.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Kefir Tip: I've been brewing it in the refrigerator, to slow it down lately. It's a bit milder and I can get to it faster, since I'm usually the only one drinking it! What I can't drink, I turn into cream cheese, about once a week.

I poured half a glass Kefir, and then added in some strawberry juice and 'swirled' it. It was REALLY nice. Perhaps you could try mixing it with some juice to give to Dh or kids. My son drinks yogurt 'smoothies' like a fiend...he tried the Kefir 'smoothie' and liked it. [Hehe, he also tried a sip of Kombucha, and said, BAD tea, momma, throw it out!]

I finally got my Donvier Yogurt Cheese Maker and wow, it REALLY does strain the Kefir from the Whey nicely! I will have a really large batch of 'cream cheese' now for my bread. I just love it with a pinch of sea salt for more flavor.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I made the spicy meat loaf with sourkraut and ketchup tonight, it was great! The ketchup gets a thumbs up from my picky 2yr old and hubby.

I have to admit that I'm a bit bummed. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person I know who eats the NT way.







Do any of you ever feel this way? I wish I knew more people who are "enlightened" like we are. You all give me a warm fuzzy feeling!

As for me and my family, me and my daughter have not been sick AT ALL since eating the NT way. Also, there has been a lot of illness floating around. I know two children that have pnumonia right now and others that have chicken pox.

I still can not find a good source of raw milk. I may have a lead on raw goat milk though.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4cornersmamma*
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person I know who eats the NT way.







Do any of you ever feel this way? I wish I knew more people who are "enlightened" like we are.

I know exactly what you mean! I swear sometimes people look at me like I just told them we eat purple cow sh*t.







: My mom has already warned me that I'm geting too primative and dh sometimes gets freaked out by all the raw foods. Although he is a culinary graduate and they just beat sanitation in to the point where even the food needs to be sterilized.







At least he's coming around espeacially after he taste it. I'll never forget our first gallon of raw milk. He braced himself for a putrid cow funk but changed to pleasantly suprised when he tasted how rich and creamy it was







I don't mind the skeptics that will at least try it but those that show complete disgust and refuse even a taste are the ones that offend me.
Sorry if I sound a bit b*tchy. I'm having a bad couple of days.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Thanks for the kefir ideas. I think it's a matter of time to get my husband to try some. The kids aren't that keen on smoothies - they tend to say it's nice, then leave it on the table and wander off. I probably should offer them as as afternoon snack when they're hungry instead of with a meal as a drink. A lot of the time I just strain it straight into the blender and add a banana or mango for myself.

Why does the NT diet have to be/seem so far out to other people? Tonight we had lamb chops, broccolli and corn with butter, and potatoes au gratin cooked with good milk and butter. Complete "my grandmother" food, but it's all NT unless I'm missing something. (which I may be - I'm open to suggestions!) And I have been incorporating the soaking principle into perfectly straightforward biscuits and pancakes and things. Oh, and what do people think about fruit juice gelatine? No added sugar.

Catarina


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
Why does the NT diet have to be/seem so far out to other people? Tonight we had lamb chops, broccolli and corn with butter, and potatoes au gratin cooked with good milk and butter. Complete "my grandmother" food, but it's all NT unless I'm missing something. (which I may be - I'm open to suggestions!) And I have been incorporating the soaking principle into perfectly straightforward biscuits and pancakes and things. Oh, and what do people think about fruit juice gelatine? No added sugar.

DD & I love FJ gelatin, especially w/mangos







. I think where most people get weirded out by NT is the fermented & raw foods. Some even make a little gagging motion when I mention raw milk. Oh well they don't know what they're missing


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

what is fruit juice gelatin? Is it a recipe in the book? It sounds good.

How did all of you find your raw milk? I have been looking for a good 5 months! It is actually illegal to sell raw milk in Colorado. . . talk about stupid lobbyists!


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4cornersmamma*
How did all of you find your raw milk? I have been looking for a good 5 months! It is actually illegal to sell raw milk in Colorado. . . talk about stupid lobbyists!

Guidestone Farm is now preparing a campaign to make raw milk legal in CO, so there is hope!


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## chocomoto (Nov 21, 2001)

I made pancakes with flour soaked in buttermilk and they were excellent! Soaking the flour really makes a difference.

We've been drinking raw milk for 2 weeks now and loving it. Last night I made cottage cheese with 2 liters of milk. It was supprisingly easy and the kids like it.

I don't know what seems so strange about NT. Most of dh's family has been eating this way for generations, and they all live into their 90s and beyond. His great uncle is turning 99 this month and has never had anything but fresh milk straight from the cow.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
Guidestone Farm is now preparing a campaign to make raw milk legal in CO, so there is hope!

Really? Is there anyway to get involved?

I 'm a CU Colorado grad too!


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

This is an article about the recent votes in CO to do away with cow shares and here is a link to local WAPF chapters.

Does any one know how to safely ship kombucha 'shrooms? I have someone that is willing to give me one but neither one of us know how to do it. Thanks.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4cornersmamma*
Really? Is there anyway to get involved?

I 'm a CU Colorado grad too!

Yes!

Guidestone is helping to organize a Legislative Action Committee to prepare legislation for the 2005 Session. The committee is currently drafting language for a bill that would be submitted to the Legislature. The Campaign for Raw Milk is in the process of contacting potential Senate and House sponsors for the legislation.

They are asking for people to contact their local legislature representatives to educate them on the value of raw milk in their personal diets and of their desire to have access to this product.

Specifically, they are asking that people write a personal letter followed up with an email addressing these points:

* It is our right as Americans and as informed consumers to have access to the foods of our choosing.
* We want to find a way to obtain raw milk within state jurisdiction.
*Health benefits you have personally experienced by drinking raw milk.
* Their thoughts on Guidestone's safey record, quality food and cleaniness.

Obviously, those who are not members of Guidestone can't address the last point!

David Lynch of Guidestone has requested copies of the emails be sent to him for his records at [email protected]


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Fruit juice gelatine: Just make up Knox gelatine with fruit juice - the packet should say how much each sachet will gel. Add fruit puree or chunks, or yogurt, or cream. Or serve with yogurt or cream. I'm getting into Joy of Cooking country here.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Hi, just wanted to check in here - I just came back from a 3week long car trip vacation during which I read NT out loud to my husband, and both of us are now committed to eating the NT way. First step, seek out some raw milk (anyone got a line on raw milk in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan? - I don't think it should be too hard to find).
Just wanted to pop my head up and say hi


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Catarina*
Fruit juice gelatine: Just make up Knox gelatine with fruit juice - the packet should say how much each sachet will gel. Add fruit puree or chunks, or yogurt, or cream. Or serve with yogurt or cream. I'm getting into Joy of Cooking country here.


What about the heavy metals and toxins found in marrow? Do you all source an organic form of the gelatin? Is there a way to pull the gelatin from the bones yourself from a certified/or guarenteed organically raised animal?


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I've never seen organic gelatin. The gelatin in our supermarkets says it is cow skin on the label. Not sure about how you'd get gelatin out of bones. All my stocks set solid when I put them in the fridge. However, the idea of beef stock flavoured orange jelly doesn't sound too tasty!









I always thought gelatin was the hooves. I have an organic horse & I know a lady with a biodynamic farm with 7 horses. Where I am going with this is horses get their hooves trimmed. In theory, you should be able to extract gelatin out of the trimmings. It would even be vegan gelatin too! So next time I get the horses hooves trimmed, which will be in the next few months or so, I will experiment & post as to what I work out. I may even sneak out & file a bit off the bottom of one to try later on.


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## nomadic_foolz (Jul 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
What about the heavy metals and toxins found in marrow? Do you all source an organic form of the gelatin? Is there a way to pull the gelatin from the bones yourself from a certified/or guarenteed organically raised animal?

I think NOW Foods carries an (organic?) gelatin.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

What exactly is in the powdered Gelatin in the supermarket.

I had heard in the past that it is the butcher room cuttings. Or pulverised bone and hooves etc.

For that I'd quess it would be good to know your butcher quite well.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:

First step, seek out some raw milk (anyone got a line on raw milk in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan? - I don't think it should be too hard to find).
It's illegal to sell raw milk in Canada. Stupid Canadian laws.

I have been reading through your threads, but in a nut shell could someone explain NT eating. Specifically what you do eat and what you don't eat. I would like to know a little about it before I go ahead and order the book. I am on a deep quest to healthier eating. I went vegetarian, but I miss meat. I found a great organic beef farmer, a great milk and yogurt source (not raw, but the best replacement I can find) and I'm weaning my family off of pre-packaged anything unless it's a natural...no additives...no chemicals type of food. I may be able to get some raw milk from some relatives. I remember being on their farm and in shock because they went out to milk the cow. I just have to get their number from my mom without letting her know what I'm up to. She's not very supportive of anything I do. She thinks I'm a little wacked with all my nutrition, cd'ing, healthing living stuff.

I did soak my oatmeal in yogurt and water, goooood stuff. I have been a little shy of the soaking the flour though, would'nt it just be goopy...or do you soak it in the liquid you are using in the recipe?


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

Thank you all for the helpful links and other info!

cjr- just break down and go buy NT!







Actually, when you soak your flour, it makes the final product a lot softer and tastier. I think that the buttermilk or whatnot that you soak the flour in is part of the final liquid in your recipe. As far as your family thinking you're whacked, well my family calls me "granola sister" and I don't even eat granola! My sisters and thier families are always sick, whereas my family and I are very rarely sick. That is why chatting on this forum is keeping me sane and helps me to remember why I go to the trouble to live a healthy lifestyle!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

There are instructions on how to make gelatin out of hooves/bones/etc in The Encyclopedia of Country Living by Carla Emery. I'll try to dig them up when DD is not sleeping on my lap.

NT/Traditional Foods Diet in a Nutshell, by toraji:
No packaged, processed, refined, or new-fangled "modern" foods
Only traditional forms of fats like coconut, extra virgin olive, butter, lard, no trans fats or "vegetable" oil
Properly prepared grains, beans, nuts, seeds (some people can't tolerate grains though)
Fermented foods (yogurt, kefir, lacto-fermented veggies and drinks)
Raw dairy and eggs from pastured animals (if you can tolerate them)
Pastured animal product, using the whole animal (organ meats, bone broths)
Only traditional forms of soy (miso, tempeh, etc)
Some supplementation like cod liver oil, azomite powder
Not strict NT, but plenty of vegetables is very traditional

did I forget anything?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr*
It's illegal to sell raw milk in Canada. Stupid Canadian laws.

Hmmmm. That sucks. Dh just made a joke that we'll have to buy it in a dark alley :LOL I'm still sure I can find it, I'll just have to be more resourceful, and not actually buy it (you know - maybe I'll make a donation to the farm, or maybe I could give them a gift . . . assuming I can find any)

I just started whey and cream cheese from organic yogurt today - wow, that's easy! Good thing my cats are still on vacation, though - they love yogurt







I also got some cabbage at the farmer's market today, so I can make some sauerkraut. And, despite the fact my garden isn't all that great this year, I have enough cucumbers for a jar of pickles









By the way, Fallon doesn't say anything about boiling lids (as is normally done in canning) - so, does that mean I don't have to? I've never pickled anything before, but my mom does, and I'm trying to remember - I'm pretty sure she doesn't boil the lids for regular pickles (the kind made with vinegar), only for jam and jelly. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:

cjr- just break down and go buy NT! Actually, when you soak your flour, it makes the final product a lot softer and tastier.
I will do that this week. I actually did'nt wait for a response last night and soaked my flour in buttermilk to make pancakes this morning. WOW! They were awsome. So tender and moist. I used ww flour soaked in the buttermilk, and sooo good.

I found a great farm to get pasture raised organic beef. He's local and we have been testing his beef and it's very good.I think I'm going to buy half a cow. I also found another local farmer with pasture raised lamb, pork and chickens. I buy whole chickens because it's more economical, and I can use the carcus for soup stock. I would like to buy a whole pig and a whole lamb. It seems like it's my best value and it would be a big plus just having it all in the freezer.

This type of eating really is'nt to far from what I'm doing now. I have always been a healthy eater. I gave up meat about four months ago because of the way it was making me feel (tummy aches and slugish). I have been eating the organic meat all week and I feel great. I do buy the odd pre-packaged stuff from time to time, but if I want to continue to buy organic milk and meat then I'm not going to be able to buy it anyway. I don't care for it myself and I'm getting the girls accustomed to good home food.

I made a comment to my mom today about how much pre-packaged foods my sister buys, and how could she afford them. My mom came back by saying that she doesn't buy organic milk or free range farm eggs..."AND"...so by buying cheap crappy eggs and milk she is saving enough to buy pre-packaged convient foods! That's much better is'nt it. I told her I'd rather make my own foods and have the money to buy the good organic dairy and meats.

Anyway, now I ramble.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I have a few updates: the postmaster wouldn't mail my kefir grains this week. They are too wierd and the USPS workers might freak out if the package is opened. LOL. I'll try again Monday. Though the problem is that we are in the sticks with one postmaster who is very perceptive. Perhaps we will have to come to some sort of an agreement.

We traveled 5 hours to Santa Cruz for an heirloom apple tasting event yesterday. I tasted 75 apples. It was a cool event and I loved the opportunity to taste all of those varieties. We will be planting a small orchard this winter and are coming up with our short list.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr*
I made a comment to my mom today about how much pre-packaged foods my sister buys, and how could she afford them.

This is actually an interesting issue. It is definitely cheaper to eat processed food than to be on an organic diet, but I think it is also cheaper to processed foods than whole foods. There is something seriously wrong with this world when poor folks can't afford vegetables.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I have found it's cheaper to stay away from processed foods. Now, if I was making all my own foods and buying the mass produced eggs and milk then I would save a bundle on my grochery bill. But, by making my own granola bars, muffins, cookies, puddings I can afford to buy organic eggs, dairy and meats. The veggies are another story. I can only buy organic veggies if they are in the middle of the season. We go through so many veggies and fruits that it would litterally triple that part of my grochery budget. I'm saving to buy whole animals for the freezer, so that may make it more economical to buy more organic produce.

I would love to have gone to that apple festival. 75 different apples, how wonderful.

I made my own buttermilk yesturday, not sure if it worked. How to you know if it did'nt? It seemed to have set way faster then the book said it should, but I think my starter was pretty good. It smells the same as the starter buttermilk, but it's a little more seperated. I put it in the fridge and I will give it a good shake in the morning.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

I just wanted to say how much I

















































you all and no matter how much we are picked on, or name called, or..or...you know...we are doing something good for our families.

Even if our own families think we're nutty drinking 'raw' milk and 'strange', _at least to them_, foods, and look at us funny for brewing strange looking things on our kitchen counters....

I have been busy last few days, so I've missed some of the posts....but I really do appreciate having found 'mothering.com' and just LOVE this forum and thread...

Ya know, we kinda skipped past September and maybe we should just start an 'October' NT thread







haha!

Some answers to some questions I just now got around to reading:

You can ship Kombucha 'Scoby' in a plastic (double bagged) baggie with some of the tea as a cushion. They ship well.

I have not tried to ship the Kefir grains yet, I hope our post man won't look at me funny..hehe...I will have to pick up the USPS priority boxes tomorrow, but will probably be able to ship out two sets on Monday.







I will double baggie them with some 'milk' as a cushion. I guess you could do the 'Dom's drying them thing, and ship that way...then they would take longer to reactivate, though...mmmm

This is a special







to Toraji

This is a







to any mammas that feel like their families (in laws), friends don't understand or appreciate us or what we're trying to do for our families.

Ok, sorry, having a warm fuzzy moment...Dh let me out of the house child free to go buy a new pair of tenny shoes and I am in a really good mood, found an $80 pair of shoes for $14 on clearance, and they are the most comfortable shoes I've ever owned!!!


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Heather,

That's how I've been shipping kefir grains and no one appears to have had a problem yet. I've shipped some in cushioned envelopes but I think I'll send the priority mail ones out in those video-sized boxes. And the only reason my husband had the problem is because the postmaster saw the baggies and thought they were wierd. Just pack them up in advance. I also intend to leave a note to USPS workers.









Congrats on the shoes.

AManda


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

When using yogurt to make cream cheese and whey, do you end up with more cream cheese than whey? How long does it take? I started mine yesterday, and it doesn't look like I'm going to get as much whey as I'd hoped . . .


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Mandy,

I separate mine using a collander lined with cheese cloth and end up with about half whey and half thick yogurt after a few hours. The longer, the more separation.

Amanda


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cjr*
I have found it's cheaper to stay away from processed foods. Now, if I was making all my own foods and buying the mass produced eggs and milk then I would save a bundle on my grochery bill. But, by making my own granola bars, muffins, cookies, puddings I can afford to buy organic eggs, dairy and meats. The veggies are another story. I can only buy organic veggies if they are in the middle of the season.

OK, that makes sense. We don't eat much in the way of grains here, so I was mainly thinking about vegetable costs. We probably consume the equivalent of $15-$20 in vegetables a day out of our garden, based on farmers' market prices.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
I separate mine using a collander lined with cheese cloth

Oh - I just realized I (accidentally) used the thickest dishcloth I have, so all the whey is being absorbed. Oh well, next time I'll use a thin cloth (I have a lot of muslin kicking around) - thanks for the help Amanda!


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

I would like to slow down on the grains. Although, we are not huge consumers of grains. We like pancakes on Saturdays or Sundays, topped with fruit. We usually go through about a loaf a bread a week. I usually make either muffins, a cookie or granola bars once every week. I have a tough time figuring out what to feed the girls while they are in school. What to give them for lunch that is portable and not parishable. There school is a nut free school and that makes it more difficult to. They need easy snacks. We eat a ton of fruit and veggies, and the girls usually take 4-5 servings of those with them for the day. We love our dairy.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I haven't made kerfir yet, but is it easy to do with pasturized milk? I remember Xenabyte saying that she made kerfir all the time in the refrigerator. . . is that easy? Did you just mail order the kerfir grains? Where did you all get your kerfir grains from?


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

I got mine from gale force. I'll be starting another batch with goat milk tonight. DD#1 is sensitive to cow's milk and she tried some raw cow milk kefir and no reaction (she usually gets red bumps around the mouth). But she got a canker sore a few days later, so I'm switching back to goat milk for a while. The goat milk is pasturized (can't find raw goat milk) and it works fine with the kefir. I'm going to try doing it the xenabyte way and leaving it in the fridge this time.


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

Amanda (Gale Force), I hope they will let you ship the kefir grains on Monday (to me included







) Darn, I am only 27 miles from Santa Cruz- I could've met you there and got them and tried some yummy apples too. Was the festival downtown?

I just went to my nearby farmers market this morning and got fermented pickles, grassfed beef and some organic greens. I'm SO excited. The beef was pricey though- wow.
California prices I guess.

I want to get a chest freezer for the garage and get 1/4 cow but DH said no way







since we will probably be back in Colorado in a year and he doesn't want to move it back (company will pay to ship everything though).

I was reading him feedlot conditions from a PBS Frontline show on their website and he said "I.... DON'T....CARE".

I sympathize with all of you who get a hard time. He said "buy whatever you want for yourself but I'm getting regular meat". arrgh. he said he doubts the feedlots are really that cramped and that many impurities are in the feed. way too trusting, he is.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:

I sympathize with all of you who get a hard time. He said "buy whatever you want for yourself but I'm getting regular meat". arrgh. he said he doubts the feedlots are really that cramped and that many impurities are in the feed. way too trusting, he is.
Well, I'm in Alberta and I am more than aware of the impurities in the feed (Mad Cow). I find it rather pricey for organic, but I think it's worth it. Personally I just don't tell dh it's organic. He can be alittle narrow minded to.







At least he is when he talks to me, but he validates my decisions to others. He won't drink organic milk though, but that will change. I think I'm just going to keep the carton of regular milk and fill it up with organic.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brookesmom*
Amanda (Gale Force), I hope they will let you ship the kefir grains on Monday (to me included







) Darn, I am only 27 miles from Santa Cruz- I could've met you there and got them and tried some yummy apples too. Was the festival downtown?

I actually thought about PMing you -- I noticed you were in that area. But it was a last minute decision and it just didn't happen. It was at the Grange Hall off of Soquel Ave.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

4cornersmamma,

I've got an extra package of grains this morning that I was going to send out. If you are around, send me your name and address and I'll mail you some grains. Xenabyte's mailing too from Colorado (I'm in Calif), so if she's closer she'd be a good bet.

mamaMAMAma,

I am so glad kefir is working. Have you been able to drink it?

Amanda


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I tried the manna bread recipe that toraji posted in one of the archived threads (I pasted it below too). Here's my report:

I used spelt. The spelt didn't sprout that well -- some grains did, some didn't. I don't know if that's a characteristic of spelt or if I just got a bad batch. But I went ahead and ground it up in the food processor and put it in an oiled baking dish. I cooked it on 200 degrees for about 7 hours. Cooked is the wrong term -- it really just dries out.

The end product was good. It was a tiny thing, particularly considering the days of rinsing. LOL. But we all enjoyed it. It was a great excuse to eat butter too.

The recipe (I consulted Wild Fermentation too):

***************************
from toraji:

*Manna Bread*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the instructions for sprout bread from a good friend of mine:

1 cup of preferred grain (I really like kamut and rye so far)
pour into wide mouth jar and cover with a clean mesh.
add double the grain's amount in water-- so for 1 cup of grain, 2 cups of water

soak overnight

drain the next morning

rinse and drain thoroughly twice a day and store in a dry dark place

you will see that the grains swell after the soaking and will start sprouting little white "heads" that get longer and longer as the hours and days go on

When the sprouts are 2 or 3 times the length of the grain (about 2 or 3 days for rye and kamut), rinse them drain them and put them in a food processor. (or Champion or augur wheatgrass juicer)

you will get something that is a bit like the consistancy of hamburger.

form it into a loaf and smoothe it out a bit, flatten the top a bit and stick it in a preheated over at 275

bake for 3 hours. Check it-- spray it with water if you want. You know when it is done because the outside has a crust and is slightly firm, the bottom when pressed on gently springs back and the inside is moist.

Take it out, let it rest until cool because it firms up a bit and then eat. You will want to refridgerate it.

Don't forget to rinse the grains well and drain them well- you don't want to worry about bacteria and stuff. I have actually been dumping mine out into a large mesh strainer and washing them well but gently so I don't break off the sprouts and then carefully putting them back in the jars.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

So I wonder how much more quickly this thread would move if we all weren't spending so much time in the kitchen. LOL. I spent four hours in the kitchen yesterday and didn't feel like I had a whole lot to show for it -- yogurt, kefir, manna bread, two crocks of veggies. I fit lunch in the four hours (my mom cooked it) and I harvested from the garden.

How much time do you all spend cooking? How does it compare to previous diets?

For us we have many more vegetables and fewer grains, so we spend lots of time chopping and cooking veggies -- so much more work than cooking grains.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I have prepared that manna recipe several times, substiting other sprouted grains such as wheat berries, rye and kamut.

The Kamut sprouts the best in my opinion.


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

no problem Amanda. I probably wouldn't have seen the PM in time either!

I have a bunch of veggies from my CSA waiting for me to dice. And tomorrow is the pickup date. Sometimes with a toddler I don't feel like dirtying up the cutting board, knife, storage container and cleaning up all the scraps. I don't know why but it just takes a while with her impatiently "supervising".

I'm pretty lazy about the bread though- I buy Alvarado Street Bakery sprouted grain breads. Hopefully that is close to OK. Or pain au levain sourdough bread.

I did make a batch of chicken stock last week with organic free range whole chicken and froze some of the stock in cubes and made some green chile stew. Yummy, but a bit of work. It was so cool to put it in the fridge and see it gelatinize properly. Fresher and a bit cheaper and low salt compared to the store bought stuff. I was so proud of myself.









DH buys regular milk for himself (yuck!) and lets me get organic. I am going to start getting raw next week though. He will probably freak. His parents grew up on dairy farms and he thinks the industry is still a lot like that. He doesn't realize about the impact of big business, bovine growth hormones, homogenization, etc, etc.

His parents are on mostly a "low fat" diet. Lots of ground turkey burgers, turkey lunchmeat (salt and preservative city there), canned vegetables (yuck), and fat free milk and supermarket bread. THey are visiting next week.

Last year I made a nice pear crostada with fresh whipping cream and MIL turned it down. They would rather have fat free Cool Whip 'cause it's fatfree.







Bless their hearts though, they are the nicest people. FIL loved my lamb stew though and after having sauteed kale asked me how to cook greens even (he doesn't cook!) They are trying to eat more greens and fresh veggies now.


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## Brookesmom (Oct 12, 2002)

oh yeah, the in-laws and SIL don't put any salt or pepper on their homecooked food ("it's more healthful") but buy bunches of canned veggies, stocks and sauces that are just loaded with salt, as well as fast food etc. It's a weird society we live in as a whole here in the U.S. No wonder people at large don't know what diet advice to follow.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

I'm spending a lot of time in the kitchen but I see that as a good thing. Tonight we had something easy but very NT, I think - haggis. It's lamb's (grass-fed) lungs, hearts, and liver, beef suet, and pinhead oats, cooked inside a sheep's stomach casing. You get it from the butchers and just boil it up in the pan. It's pretty salty, and strongly flavoured, but really good and I'm never going to eat any offal any other way, I'm afraid. We had it with "neeps and tatties"; mashed potatoes and mashed turnip (rutabaga) and carrot. And Savoy cabbage.

I would love some ideas for cooking kale and other greens.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

We definitely need some ideas on cooking greens. The summer crop is almost over and all I see are greens on the horizon.


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I just finished making a batch of the sourdough bread from the NT cookbook. I made one small change and it came out very fluffy and yummy. At the beginning of the recipe it calls for a cup of water but I added a cup and a half of kefir instead. I'd made some pancakes earlier in the week w/ kefir and noticed that it rised significantly over night. By adding it to my starter I got it to rise in about half the time as the recipe called for and pretty fluffy considering there is no commercial yeast in it. Everyone in the house has been happily eating it.

As for greens, our favorite thing is to make a veggie curry and then towards the end (unless its collards or kale then a little earlier) I chop the the greens up into fairly small pieces and mix them in. It makes something close to saag but a bit different. My daughter really loves greens this way though in general she's pretty fond of greens.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Whoever wants gelatin instructions PM me your email addy and I will send them to you.

I've been spending lots of time in the kitchen lately, lots of stuff being harvested from the garden. Just finished canning 40 lbs of tomatoes. Now I need to deal with the mountain of green beans. Ack! It will be nice come wintertime though.

Xenabyte: I heart you too!









Greens! I love greens! Our favorite is a tahini or nut cream garlic "mayo" mixed into sauteed shredded greens and carmelized onions. Put on top of bread and you have "Greenwiches". I can post the recipe if anyone's interested (it's even vegan if you make vegan mayo). Or chop up and add to soups. We've been putting it in our blended salads lately, which is good because I wouldn't be able to eat them raw otherwise.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

hrheka said:


> I just finished making a batch of the sourdough bread from the NT cookbook. I made one small change and it came out very fluffy and yummy. At the beginning of the recipe it calls for a cup of water but I added a cup and a half of kefir instead. I'd made some pancakes earlier in the week w/ kefir and noticed that it rised significantly over night. By adding it to my starter I got it to rise in about half the time as the recipe called for and pretty fluffy considering there is no commercial yeast in it. Everyone in the house has been happily eating it.QUOTE]
> 
> That is a great idea, my family complains about how thick and hard the bread is. I'll try your idea and see if it works for us!


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

brooksmom,

Good for you!







Stock is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. As for your inlaws and hubby - DH brought home a loaf of bread today where the second ingredient was "high fructose corn syrup".







When my inlaws visited, my mother in law was very concerned with how many callories were in my sprouted grain bread! At least I was nice enough to buy her low fat milk.

DH is addicted to 'miricle whip', I've tried making the mayonaise, but I don't have a food processor, so I made it with my mixer and added the oil with a medicine dropper. I used EV olive oil, it was bad. So I bought some saflower oil and I'm going to try that. Does anyone have ideas for me as to get my hubby off that yucky stuff?


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Has any one tried the almond cookie recipe? I made a batch for dd#1 to take to preschool tomorrow, but it was very crumbly. I used olive oil instead of butter (dairy sensitivity) and I haven't ordered our coconut oil yet. Could that be it?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

I haven't tried the recipe, but based on experiments in baking, that could definitely be part of the problem. You could also try lard in place of the butter (it might be easier to find than coconut oil).
HTH


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I have made the almond cookies, and I make the peanut cookies all the time. They are just very crumbly cookies. The butter helps though, because when they cool, they harden up a bit. I have never used coconut oil. . . so I don't know if that would help. I have found that I need to chop up the nuts ALL THE WAY because if I don't the nuts come out my daughter in the same form and she says that her "poopy hurts".


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks for the tip on the almond meal. I put the almond in the processor and let it go a for a while so it was very fine. I see you point about the butter hardening up when it is cool. Hmm, I wonder if coconut oil would do the same or not. Anyways, I was meaning to order the coconut oil but just haven't done it yet.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

Toraji, do you steam or boil greens, kale, etc first before sauteing them? And what's a blended salad? Anything to get us eating more vegetables.

I have been using kefir for pancakes and "buttermilk" biscuits too and they have been coming out very well.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

I'll post my recipes for blended salad (basically a salad in a blender with olive oil/vinegar "dressing", turns out like a cold soup) and greens separately as they would appeal to the veggie population too.


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Argh. I had to go "under the drill" today.







This was an unpleasant surprise, since I've always had very good teeth. I guess 9 months of nursing, combined with my somewhat haphazard eating habits, have taken their toll. So I went back and checked here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/children...ormothers.html








I'm nowhere near eating all this! I'm having a hard enough time consuming a pint of milk or kefir, two eggs, 2 or 3 tbsp of butter, and normal-sized servings of meat and fish. If I get pregnant again, I might not even be able to manage that. (I seem to recall Sally Fallon theorizing that raw milk can prevent morning sickness...well, that didn't work for me last time.







)

Out of all the recommended foods on the list, which ones do you think would make my teeth happiest? Can I just eat more of the bone broths, soaked grains, and lacto-fermented vegetables? Or do I really need to add all those tablespoons of CLO, coconut oil, and other assorted fats?

P.S. On the up side, the dentist is holistic, and I noticed a copy of NT in his office.


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## aimeemac (Apr 17, 2002)

MooblesMama.......Hi. I think we are going through something similar w/ my son and daugher (on a wheat free dairy free diet). They eat whole foods, but nothing like what the NT diet describes and they have cavities. They eat no sugar etc.
It is such a mystery to me.


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Hmm, aimeemac...your post got me thinking.

I'm on a gluten-free diet, and don't eat a lot of grains. Just some brown rice bread, which is leavened but not soaked.







: So I'm probably not getting enough magnesium, which is necessary to absorb calcium.

Time to prepare some more bone broths, leafy greens, and sea vegetables. That sounds much more appealing than the "1 tbsp lard, 1 tbsp CLO, 2 tbsp coconut oil" regime, anyway.


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## aimeemac (Apr 17, 2002)

yeah, we are off to the dentist tomorrow w/ my 21 mo. old to have some filling under sedation. when we get back we will start on a fresh slate and try some NT recipes.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

We've noticed the best results with blended salads and loads of veggies (for lots of vitamins/minerals), taking a wide-spectrum mineral supplement (including trace minerals, to make up for the lack of minerals in our modern produce), bone broths, cod liver oil for the fat soluble vitamins (can't absorb calcium without Vitamin D), and adequate animal product (meat) intake (usually about 2 servings a day). DD is sensitive to coconuts so we don't do coconut oil. High intake of vegetables is important to keep the body alkalized.

We definitely notice more tooth sensitivity on the days without the blended salads.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

catarina, here is the link to the greens thread I started.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=200248
Oh, to answer your question, I usually just chop up greens and sautee them without pre-cooking them. If they need some help cooking, then I'll put a little water in the pan, cover, and then steam them until tender.

and the thread on blended salads:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=199972

though they are not much threads, no one has responded to either of them. :LOL


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## hrheka (Feb 12, 2004)

I was wondering if anyone has any good snack suggestions. My husband has been getting so hungry in the evening no matter what we have for dinner and how much. He is very slender and goes to the gym a few times a week. I just don't have a lot of NT ideas. I don't like having snack food around because then I munch on it during the day and though I'm very active I'm not as slender as my husband. So any suggestions for what you guys snack on would be great.

Also, I know its a bit late but I make the almond cookies but I always add one egg. I'm not sure why they don't include eggs in the cookies, there may be an NT thing I'm missing here, but I've not made many successful cookie recipes w/out eggs. They come out perfect with an egg.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

hrheka, my DH is a string bean too ("Stick Boys Unite!") and instead of snacking, he just eats another meal. His philosophy is, if you're hungry, you should eat real food.


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## mamaMAMAma (Nov 20, 2001)

Dh is the same way; tall & skinny and gets hungry (no matter what) after dinner. I keep a jar of crispy nuts and he munches on that. He used to munch on Newman's organic cookies, but the nuts seem to be doing the job now.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey, I have a skinny dh too!! He is about 6 feet and weighs maybe 140 lbs. He did triathelon for years, thus his appetite is HUGE.

I make 'cookies' for him everyday.

I take spelt flour that has been soaking in amasake overnight and add molasses, diced dates, walnuts, sunseeds, coconut and ground flax seed with 2 eggs, coconut oil, more milk, youghurt, and tahini.

They are dense sweet and loaded with minerals and vitamins. The soaked spelt makes them so fluffy and delicious...now if I only could stay away from them...I am the opposite of dh.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

We really, really, really like pasta in our family, but of course, it's kind of an NT taboo. I've also discovered that while I can tolerate sprouted or soaked wheat, regular wheat makes me feel really sluggish. So I'm interested in making pasta out of sprouted wheat/spelt/whatever (rice noodles cost a lot), and wondering if any of you have tried it? We don't have a pasta maker yet, but we're thinking about getting one.


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## Catarina (Aug 26, 2004)

There's a sourdough noodle recipe on the WAP site.

Snacks: I make crispy nuts, and I make a crispy seed mixture, too. My husband likes something sweet in the evening and we have organic dark chocolate with cherries sometimes. It's really high in antioxidants and not very sweet. Mary Enig mentions eating Oreos on the WAP site! I make coconut macaroons - extremely simple and good - and I usually keep a cut-up fresh coconut in the fridge, although that's more a mid-morning snack in our house.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

My husband is pretty thin too. He's about 5'7" and weighs 130. I keep hoping that I'll make it down to his weight (at my short 5'4" stature), and this way of eating has helped, but I'm, um, far too muscular to weigh 130.


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## 4cornersmamma (Aug 29, 2004)

I don't know what it is, but I haven't been able to get the baby weight off from my second baby. I was asked if I was pregnant a few weeks ago!

I have a problem, my oven will not cook at 150 degrees. It blinks "error" and resets automatically to 170. Does anyone know if this will still leave the enzimes alive?


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