# Wow! Wow!!! and did I say WOW!!!!!!!!!



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Took the girls to the store this afternoon. Both were well fed and rested, thought it would be an easy trip. Ugh. What a joke. Running all over the store, acting like animals in the zoo at feeding time. I was getting so very, very, very angry.

The final straw. We left. DD (3) said "I want to go down the ramp" I said "No, I want you to walk with me to the car." She looked at me and took off running down the ramp. I got down before her, and at the bottom, I was kneeling down. DD(2) crying in my arms because she didn't get to go down the ramp. I looked her right in the eyes and said "I am very disappointed that you didn't listen to me." and I stood up. I took her hand and started walking to the car. She just skipped along, nothing bothering this girl, etc. We get in the car. I buckled them into their carseats. I got in and started the van. We started to pull out and I hear "Mommy?" in this whispering, questioning tone. I look back and she's almost in tears. I pull back into the parking space and get in the back. "What's the matter, honey?"

Sniffle. pause. Sniffle. "Mommy, I'm sorry I didn't listen to you. I'll try to do better next time."








!!!!!


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

S-swe-e-et! Those are the moments that make all of our efforts worth it


----------



## mommaJ (May 3, 2005)

Yay! A lovely story to share, thanks!


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

"I am very disappointed that you didn't listen to me."
Maybe I am going to be flamed and the voice of dissention here-- and firstly, I am glad your daughter apologized...however, that phrasing makes me uncomfortable. To me, it is a bit manipulative...kind of like whether you are happy or sad inside depends solely on what your child does or doesn't do.

Was the ramp a safety concern? You said that by the time she was even down in, you were at the bottom...so I gather not. Was it just that you didn't want her to run down the ramp because she didn't behave in the store? Why not just let a kid run down a ramp?

I am not trying to be combative AT ALL... these are just the things I consider when choosing my battles...with children and with people in general...

Take care

Quote:

I look back and she's almost in tears.
...then it seems like you are all happy that you upset her? (at the end of the post)

I don't see this as GD personally...


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
...then it seems like you are all happy that you upset her? (at the end of the post)

Wow, I did not get this feeling from the OP at all. Mama sounded concerned and stopped the van to attend to her daughter. Nothing indicated she was happy about her daughter being upset.

May be the phrasing "I am disappointed that you did not listen to me" could be adjusted, but I would not hide the fact that I am disappointed by my kids actions sometimes - it's life. Just like we should not make them feel that their action dictate how we feel all the time, we should not hide the fact that their actions do have impact on us.


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

same here CC. I think it is alright to voice how she feels.

I also don't think she was happy she upset her dd. I think she is celebrating a victory of her dd understnading what went wrong, and awknowledging her moms feelings ( which so does not happen often! in my life anyways)


----------



## LittleLime (Jun 30, 2004)

cc..i'm more with you on this one. i save my "i'm disappointed" for when i'm REAAALLLY disappointed! kids love ramps..i usually spend time with dd on ramps whenever i can because she loves it. when we can't i say..i'm sorry, i know you love running up and down ramps but we are in a big hurry today so we have to go straight to the car (if she cries and screams that's fine with me...sounds like it's not for many who tout themselves as GD).

not to hijack your post but i guess i've been a little fed up lately with this board. i sometimes feel that my ideas about GD are very different than the majority here...it seems for most it's still about controlling behavior and expecting kids to act in ways that aren't developmentally achievable for them (like expecting a 3 yo to quietly walk beside you in a store and not want to explore etc.) but the control is achieved in a "gentle" way. although I would argue that the whole "i'm disappointed" scolding type stuff isn't gentle at all.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

(like expecting a 3 yo to quietly walk beside you in a store and not want to explore etc.)
My child 2.5 and I expect her to walk with me and she does she stops and looks and comments about things she runs ahead a few steps or lags behind a step but I do expect her to listen to me and to coperate if not they she can stay in the cart or stroller or in my arms. Oh and I expect her to talk the entire time














I also keep things in perpective going to the market for milk and bread walk going for $200 worth of grocceries use a cart...
If we have a bad day trip well then we had a bad day. I don't say you dissapointed me because I have controll over my own feelings my childs not responsible for them. I will say you had trouble listening to me we need to practice our listening skills. I'll also make sure I add some "listening skills" games at home things like reg light green light stop go games, follow the leader, gentle touches.
GD isn't about controlling behaviors but it is about teaching. I hold my children to a high standards no more than they are developmentally able to but I do hold the bar high.

Deanna


----------



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Well.

I guess I should have been more specific in my original post. I never thought I would have to defend myself as GD.

I *did* let them explore in the store. I got angry because they weren't following even the simplest directions. I also, normally let them run and play on the ramp, but we were on a schedule and with as much time as they spent *exploring* in the store, we didn't have the time for them to play as they usually do. I never said I was sad or unhappy or happy or anything. I told her I was disappointed, which was true. I was not manipulating her, I was allowing her to see that her actions effect those around her. I am not, nor will I, defend myself.

What I was celebrating (I'm sorry, but if you thought I was happy that she was upset,.....well, nevermind!) was that *she* has come to an age of maturity to see that her actions affect others. She didn't react when I told her I was disappointed, it was only when she had a moment (after being gently buckled into her carseat...just in case someone wants to read between the lines again) to think on the moment. She realized that she was misbehaving....WITHOUT PUNISHMENT. I was, in my original post, not only celebrating her maturity, but also, letting others that *might* be struggling with this know that there is that light, that knowledge that they are internalizing the lessons.

And maybe, just Maybe, I was celebrating my being able to handle my anger and frustration in a mature manner as well.

But nevermind.


----------



## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

Just saw this and I can't pass this up.
I thought your story was inspiring. You handled it in a gentle way.
I have been to the store may times when my kids have ran around like crazy and haven't even acknowledged my existence. It can be extrememly frustrating. Exploring is one thing but there are safety issues in many forms and I expect to be able to have their attention.
As far as the ramp is concerned, I think the fact that you got down on her level and explained how you felt is a tool she can learn from. You controlled your anger and expressed yourself.
I posted here a long time ago about my horrible trips to the store with my children only to get "maybe you shouldn't take your children to the grocery store". WHAT? There were suggestions of hiring a sitter or getting a friend to watch my children when I went to the store. THIS is GD advice. I have not visited this forum since. But I couldn't pass up your story.


----------



## AutumnMama (Jan 2, 2004)

:


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Holy crap, sometimes I feel like nothing is good enough for some of the people in this forum.









I thought the op had a good story. She was certainly happy with it, at least until everybody had to rain on her parade.

For crying out loud.

chinaKat


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I am wondering when this pissing contest is going to stop captain crunchy? It's getting really old.

THAT is why I hate coming to this forum. Because of the, your not GD enough BS. I am as gentle as I know how to be. Do I make mistakes? You bet! Don't you?But you can bet, that no matter what mistakes I do or don't make, they are all done with the 100% respect and love of my daughters'. That GD enough for you?


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Oh I thought I was great your child was able to be so mature and without any fear of punishment.







I think you kept your self in check too would I have chosen diffrent words yes but I still think you did great. Just wanted you to know in case my last post came out weird.

Deanna


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I thought your story was inspiring and sweet. You didn't lose your temper even though I'm sure it wasn't easy, you kept you cool and spoke calmly, you addressed her feelings when she started to show that she was upset. In short - you did good Momma! Go you!!!!


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I just don't know what to say.

To the OP- good for you!

To the "dissenting voices"- get over yourselves. No one crowned you the Queens of GD and the OP wasn't asking for a play-by-play analysis of what you thought she did wrong. It's not like she duct-taped the kids to the roof of the car for heaven's sake.







: Or even yelled, or punished, or lost her temper.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
What I was celebrating (I'm sorry, but if you thought I was happy that she was upset,.....well, nevermind!) was that *she* has come to an age of maturity to see that her actions affect others.

That *is* wonderful!







And yes, ignore those who are being rude and picking apart your post.







(psst, I'm guessing they don't have three small children and are solo for months at a time







)

Quote:

And maybe, just Maybe, I was celebrating my being able to handle my anger and frustration in a mature manner as well.
I celebrate too whenever I feel I have done this. Good for you mama.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

burke-a-bee, I haven't posted here since March, but I have come back just to support you and the original poster here. Suggestions of hiring a babysitter or not going to the grocery store make me LOL. I remember you burka-a-bee and I know what you are talking about.

and to APMom98,







and I know what it is like to take more than one child to do errands that are a necessity not a choice.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleLime*
it's still about controlling behavior and expecting kids to act in ways that aren't developmentally achievable for them (like expecting a 3 yo to quietly walk beside you in a store and not want to explore etc.) but the control is achieved in a "gentle" way.

I don't want to add fuel to the fire here, but this comment really struck home with me. The thing that bothered me about the OP's story was how she said she was disappointed that her DD "didn't listen" to her. I use phrases like this myself with my own DS, and I always cringe inwardly when I hear myself saying it.

I really, really want DS (and DD) to grow up to be a critical thinker. I don't want him to follow blindly, I want him to be able to analyze and think for himself. This seems to be in direct contradiction to my desire, sometimes, to just want him to obey me. To just listen to me and do what I say, because I am the parent.

Maybe it would have been better to leave off the disappointment and the "you didn't listen to me" comment and come at it more from an "imparting information" angle - "That was dangerous, you could have been hit by a car" or, "I need your cooperation right now to help me get these groceries to the car," something like that.

This is not meant to be a criticism of anyone's GDness. Just something I think about.


----------



## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Wow. Is this the Gentle Discipline forum???
My goodness.....I don't know what to say.







:







I'll make sure not to make any waves here.......







:

APmom98 - I get what you were saying and I celebrate with you - you were having one of those moments when your dd's just make your head spin - but you held it together and IMO kept your daughters dignity intact, even when your reserves were low. Your dd sounds like a cutie patootie.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fmb*
I really, really want DS (and DD) to grow up to be a critical thinker. I don't want him to follow blindly, I want him to be able to analyze and think for himself. This seems to be in direct contradiction to my desire, sometimes, to just want him to obey me. To just listen to me and do what I say, because I am the parent.

I see what you're saying but my family follows a "family centered" approach rather than a child centered one. (not implying that's anyone's approach btw). To me it's natural and desirable for the family to function together as a unit. Safety is in everyone's best interest and running away from mama is never safe. I'm not trying to sound like my way is the best or anything but my kids never sit in the shopping cart. They *do* walk along side me in the grocery store and if they're too little to do that they are in the sling. What I'm saying is that many children *are* capable of this (a three year old for sure) and I don't see anything wrong at all with a mother expecting her children to stay near and expressing her feelings of dissapointment/frustration w/the child not doing so.

My point is all families do things in different ways. We really need to accept eachother more. Because my children are expected to stay near mama doesn't mean they will follow along w/the sheeple and never have their own ideas. It is part of what I teach them about safety and families cooperating together.

As long as it's gentle and does not hurt or endanger anyone, I think we should all support whatever mamas are doing that works.


----------



## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

That is great, AP Mom!







I think the fact that your daughter did not say sorry right away, but thought about it, shows that she was really _thinking_ about her actions & she regretted not listening to you. She is growing up to be a fine young lady.









Of course, you are struggling with a 2 year old & a 3 year old, if you had given her $5 to stay with you, I would still be proud of ya! (I have one child, a six year old son, & sometimes it is all I can do to make it out of the store without pulling all my hair out!







)


----------



## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

I have three kids ages 5, 21 months and nearly 5 months. Going to the shop with all of them is usually reserved for days when Im feeling especially masochistic. Its a nightmare in all honesty! I dont drive so we walk. Trying to get through what I need to at the shops while trying to answer a zillion "why" questions from my 5yr old, keep my 21 month old from standing up in the pram and tipping it over (yes, I use a pram







) while carrying baby in a sling is NOT easy!! I often feel like I want scream and rant and stomp my feet! It takes a lot to remain calm and try to please everyone without causing tantrums and hurt feelings.







And sometimes I get nasty looks from others (usually without kids) because I don't treat my kids like mini-soldiers and expect them to not touch or explore.

I for one appreciate reading posts like the OP - it DOES give me hope! I have these moments too and it makes me feel like celebrating myself!

And as far as wording goes - I personally expect my dd to tell me when something I do makes her feel dissapointed and that includes me not listening to her. When she feels like she can be heard she will hear me too. Its a two say street.


----------



## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
I have three kids ages 5, 21 months and nearly 5 months. Going to the shop with all of them is usually reserved for days when Im feeling especially masochistic. Its a nightmare in all honesty! I dont drive so we walk. Trying to get through what I need to at the shops while trying to answer a zillion "why" questions from my 5yr old, keep my 21 month old from standing up in the pram and tipping it over (yes, I use a pram







) while carrying baby in a sling is NOT easy!! I often feel like I want scream and rant and stomp my feet! It takes a lot to remain calm and try to please everyone without causing tantrums and hurt feelings.







And sometimes I get nasty looks from others (usually without kids) because I don't treat my kids like mini-soldiers and expect them to not touch or explore.

I for one appreciate reading posts like the OP - it DOES give me hope! I have these moments too and it makes me feel like celebrating myself!

And as far as wording goes - I personally expect my dd to tell me when something I do makes her feel dissapointed and that includes me not listening to her. When she feels like she can be heard she will hear me too. Its a two say street.









You rock Raven!







That's what I wanted to say.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
I have three kids ages 5, 21 months and nearly 5 months. Going to the shop with all of them is usually reserved for days when Im feeling especially masochistic.

:LOL Teeheehee!

Quote:

And as far as wording goes - I personally expect my dd to tell me when something I do makes her feel dissapointed and that includes me not listening to her. When she feels like she can be heard she will hear me too. Its a two say street.








: Exactly!


----------



## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

APmom, you handled it beautifully!


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven*
Its a two say street.

great typo, if it was one, lol

oht - trying to rock dd to sleep

i get what you all are saying - i know i sound critical of the op and i honestly don't mean to be, what she did was fine, really, and i am mainly being academic about this. but imo it wasn't that her dd wasn't listening - she heard her fine, she just didn't do what her mama said to do. her dd looked right at her (the op said) and did the exact opposite of what she had asked her dd to do. there is a diff. between not listening and not obeying


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

yes famous, but there was a history of the child acting up in the store "running wild" ect...I think the statement could have applied to the whole behavior.

But I could be arong too. I will wait and see what the OP says.







:


----------



## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

After reading your OP I thought you did a wonderful job. Congratulations!

Several of the responses have me curious though. I don't personally see any problem with occasionally letting your children know that you are disappointed in their behavior. It seems like an honest emotional response to me. Kind of a logical consequence. I sort of get the idea that 'I am responsible for my own feelings', but it is true that sometimes in life people can do things that disappoint us, make us angry, test our limits, etc... It actually seems kind of dishonest to me to suggest that I should ALWAYS shield my child from emotions I am experiencing. I also wonder, would supressing expression of my frustration/disappointment/etc model a behavior I actually wanted my child to emulate? Personally- I don't think so, but what do you all think? I would ideally like to model a behavior of acknowledgeing emotions (both positive and negative) in a calm and clear manner so that they are not supressed.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not the most GD person in the world, although I do feel that I am a gentle mom. But I haven't read extensively on GD, so please excuse my ignorance on this subject.


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Thanks for sharing your story! Glad to know I'm not the only one who has frustrating shopping trips sometimes, LOL.

Posting here can be kind of hard, because no one ever gives you the benefit of the doubt EVER, it seems like, and sometimes people act like every post is the very first post you've ever posted, KWIM? I love reading the GD discussions but people do get really nitpicky, especially when this was just a support/vent sort of post.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
there is a diff. between not listening and not obeying

I hear what you are saying. It probably is (and has been!) a whole other thread- I personally do expect my children to obey, and some mamas would never use that word. But I get the semantics.


----------



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Okay,







: I think this is the first time I've started a post that's ended up in a debate! :LOL

In looking back, and reading the responses to both my op and the follow up post, I can see the logic of using a different phrase than "Didn't listen" The disappointment factor, I will not discuss, because like Raven, I believe they should know when they have disappointed me, but I also want to know when they feel disappointed with something I've done. She did *hear* me, but she didn't *listen. She didn't obey, if you prefer that choice of word. We use phrases like "Where are our listening ears today?" and make a big game out of looking in our mouths, under our feet, in our tummy, to find our ears when we're not listening...After we find our listening ears, we put them on our head, really tightly, then repeat the request. They do it to me, if I'm distracted (reading posts on MDC, for example







) And I don't respond quickly, they'll say "Mommy, are you wearing your listening ears?" "No, honey, I wasn't....let's see if I can find them...oh here they are, I forgot them under my left foot.....okay, they are on now, I'm sorry, could you please repeat yourself?" It's our way of making sure that we're being heard in a lighthearted manner. I suppose I could have asked her if she was wearing her listening ears, but I was just to angry and frustrated with the defiance( again, in case anyone misunderstands...I know she wasn't being truly defiant, she was being three, but still) at that point. I was feeling







!!

I do appreciate all the support. And part of my op was in response to the post that's going on over at TAO about the lady in TJ. I posted there that if someone here saw me at the store, most days, they'd come here and complain about how Non-AP, Non-GD I am. Not that I lose it completely, but my patience wears thin, I dont' use a gentle tone all the time, and sometimes, I'm downright harsh. I was pleased that I was able to hold my own temper in check, respect her, and then was completely amazed and awed by how she responded to my being gentle with her. If I'd scolded, "I *told* you to stay with me!" in a harsher tone, it wouldn't have meant anything to her, but because I just allowed her to see my disappointment, she thought about it and we both grew.

I just wanted to share that joy with others. Since my very good IRL friend moved away in January, I don't have much interaction with GD people. And since dh left in early July, I don't have much support either. MDC is where I come when I need to reground myself. I'm surrounded by spankers, cioers, yellers, etc.....and while they only make my convictions stronger, sometimes it can get quite lonely, you know? So,







and







and


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
Well.

I guess I should have been more specific in my original post. I never thought I would have to defend myself as GD.



In life, as well as on-line it is always best to explain everything as thoroughly as possible. In fact, start as far back as you can remember :LOL

cheers!
~Nay


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
Holy crap, sometimes I feel like nothing is good enough for some of the people in this forum.









I thought the op had a good story. She was certainly happy with it, at least until everybody had to rain on her parade.

For crying out loud.

chinaKat









:

~Nay


----------



## scrappingmom (Sep 3, 2005)

APmom98.... as a mother of soon to be 10(human children







) .... thats an awsome story! it warmed my heart to say the least! any clue how to get that response from an 11 yr old......  other topic i know









I have to kinda agree with.. i'm sorry i forgot you name... mama saying she felt frustrated with EVERYTHING getting knocked down on the board. I'm new here and am apauled to be honest at the number of derogatory.. I cant believe you would do such a thing.... type messages. This is a mothering board... and all of us come here to share stories and ask questions and get support from other SIMILAR (not identical) minded people. there are several people i've noticed on the board who seem to spend most of their time admonishing others for not parenting "properly" , from my observation most only have 1-2 children and they are very young(the children)

I can tell you 100% gentle discipline really is different with family AND with every child and every curcumstance. If you believe for a moment there is cut and dry answers... you need more life experiance, not books. Also, gentle discipline simply DOESNT work with all children, some need cut and dry solid rules WITH a consequence which they know in advance.

EACH of my children need different parenting, i wish a few would be the same  lol

back to original though .... APmom.. perhaps disapointed might be betterthan ashamed .. maybe not.... but dont let the nay saying get to you, sometiems kids need it pointed out that their moment of fun affects other people, at young ages they tend to be in the here and now and think but this is fun.. and not think, well mommy said i cant, maybe theres a good reason.
She took quite a step in realizing she ISNT the only one affected and thats so great! If you watch you'll likley start seeing other signs of her taking a second to think how things affect others.


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Wait, what is gentle discipline, then? Are we talking about TCS or gentle disciplilne? It sounds to me that she used gentle discipline but did not use TCS. Am I confused? I thought that sometimes we do have to manipulate our children's behavior, and I interpreted the story as being about a safety issue, ie, that the ramp went towards the parking lot??


----------



## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

To the OP - Sounds like a great moment and I would celebrate my ds having that maturity also. Sorry others are picking it apart!







:


----------



## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnthroMama*
To the OP - Sounds like a great moment and I would celebrate my ds having that maturity also. Sorry others are picking it apart!







:









:

I thought it was a great post, too


----------



## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

what's TCS?


----------



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin*
In fact, start as far back as you can remember :LOL
~Nay

Well................when I was five, I remember my mother yelling at me for going down a ramp, so of course, I want to make sure that my children *never* get to go down the ramps....I mean, I didn't get to, why should they?














!!!!

Thanks!!


----------



## LittleLime (Jun 30, 2004)

there's too much to respond to here now...but let me say just a few things...
again...why not let the kids run down the ramp. why must we always control control control. learning to listen is different than just being controlled.

but whatever...i thought this board was about multiple points of view. should we all have just applauded op and moved on...or should we share our opinions...perhaps someone can learn something. i hope no one here is so sensitive that they would fall apart after hearing some flaming responses. it's hard to have an on line conversation...you can't read tone of voice and you can't see people's faces. you lose a lot of the original story. reading more from op gives me more insight into her story...it's still not my style. and i guess i do think my style is better. so what. i haven't crowned myself the queen of anything...except my own universe.

i actually think we need to have a different forum for a more UP, TCS and Naomi Aldort (not sure her philosophies have an acronym yet) brand of GD. I personally don't like to use the term GD to describe my parenting at all but this is the only place I can find that comes close to what I'm looking for. i think that's where so much debate comes in.

And OP...I think it's good your post became a debate or expanded discussion. You will always have people in your life who just pat you on the back and say "good job" because they don't care enough to say much more than that and you'll have people who tell you what they really think. Again...online it sometimes comes across a little too harsh.

I just feel like we all know that we're all mamas doing the best we can, loving our babes each day and having ups and downs. No on is saying the other is a horrible mother or that they are the queens of GD and never lose their cool etc.

Some of us just like to look at the situation from a different angle and perhaps provoke discussion. It helps make this a board worth visiting.


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Having been through a week and a half of public school, and having seen how mainstream America treats their children, I think you are light years ahead of most people.

You did a wonderful thing. You modelled patience and self-control for your children. That's something with which *lots* of moms visiting these forums say they have trouble (myself included). And something most moms I meet on the street don't even think about.

You put your relationship first (above managing her 'behavior'), maintaining and respecting your attachment with your daughter. And your daughter responded with concern about your relationship. Parenting is not a list of techniques or phrases. It's about maintaining that attachment relationship so you can guide your child to maturity. And you did just that. Kudos to you!


----------



## Yarnia (Aug 29, 2003)

Best of all you gave your dd time to think about her actions - rather than extracting an immediate promise to "be good" in the future or not to do it again.

I am so tired of friends making their kids apologize 15 seconds after the offense occurs. It's so meaningless.


----------



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleLime*
there's too much to respond to here now...but let me say just a few things...
again...why not let the kids run down the ramp. why must we always control control control. learning to listen is different than just being controlled.

but whatever...i thought this board was about multiple points of view. should we all have just applauded op and moved on...or should we share our opinions...perhaps someone can learn something. i hope no one here is so sensitive that they would fall apart after hearing some flaming responses. it's hard to have an on line conversation...you can't read tone of voice and you can't see people's faces. you lose a lot of the original story. reading more from op gives me more insight into her story...it's still not my style. and i guess i do think my style is better. so what. i haven't crowned myself the queen of anything...except my own universe.

.

See, I have tried and tried to hold my tongue, but this just irritates me. I don't care what your style is. And I don't care if you think your style is better. As I have said many, many times....I am not perfect. But when I had one child, it was so easy, so clear cut; but now that I'm balancing three, it becomes much more difficult to get through each day without damaging anyone's self esteem, without disrespecting someone, through word or action. I am doing the very best that I can.

I will not defend my right to parent my children the way I see fit. Your phrasing of control, control, control....well, if that's how you choose to see it......I don't try to control my children, I try to guide them.

I'm finished. To those who posted thoughtful ideas and support and suggestions, thank you so very much. To those who chose to pick me apart, well.....whatever. I don't judge others. I haven't walked in their shoes. Try mine for a few weeks.


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

LL~ multiple points of view is ONE thing. Looking down one's nose because SHE did not think it was GD enough is entirely different. That is not an oponion. THAT is judgement.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I'm sorry you feel attacked, mama. If I contributed to that feeling in any way, I apologize.

There *is* a somewhat snarky tone to this thread that I am surprised to see on the GD board. Maybe we're all just having a bad day.


----------



## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

charmarty said:


> I am wondering when this pissing contest is going to stop


----------



## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleLime*
You will always have people in your life who just pat you on the back and say "good job" because they don't care enough to say much more than that and you'll have people who tell you what they really think.

Uh... you can pat someone on the back, and support them, while still gently making suggestions or throwing out ideas on how things can improve.

I mean, the OP obviously didn't share ALL of the details of what was happening, just the basic gist... why assume she didn't have a valid reason for wanting her child to go down the ramp?

I find it ironic that in this forum, where so many ideas are batted around on how we can treat our children respectfully, how we can get them involved instead of just scolding them, how we can treat them as we would want to be treated... well we seem to have a problem treating each other that way. I really wish we could all try to be a little nicer to each other.

There IS a way to make suggestions without tearing other people down... whether it's online or in person.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I totally get why people can be mean to each other on this board. We aren't only moms here, we are also former children of moms. I think I've only attacked someone for what she wrote here once, but it was because I felt more empathy for her child than for her because of how she described the child's behavior.

So I don't think when people get all critical that it's about a "pissing contest." People post emotionally here about what's most important to them. We need to be able to balance being supportive with speaking our truths. I think on this board, support is very important. You can't be a GD mom in a non-GD society unless you get support. It's always a dance though.

I don't see the OP in a negative way at all. It sounds like the little three year old made a huge leap of maturity and understood where her mom was coming from. That's HUGE! It couldn't have happened if the OP mom had yelled, or overstated her feelings, or put the child down. It might not have been the 100% perfect wording, but it was gentle and it worked!


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
LL~ multiple points of view is ONE thing. Looking down one's nose because SHE did not think it was GD enough is entirely different. That is not an oponion. THAT is judgement.











Besides, I got the impression from the OP that mama was struggling w/the baby and groceries when her dd ran over to the ramp and it WAS difficult to get over there. Again, that is so not about control. It's about doing what's in everyone's best interest as far as safety and family cooperation go. I don't think it's good for a child for everyone to be in distress and to drop everything for whatever the child fancies on a whim. Again, different strokes for different folks and all that.


----------



## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

famousmockngbrd There *is* a somewhat snarky tone to this thread that I am surprised to see on the GD board. Maybe we're all just having a bad day.[/QUOTE said:


> Unfortunately, it's becoming a more common occurence. Just today there are posts made that are condescening and dismissive of another mama's pov. You know what I find suprising? That this is a GENTLE DISCIPLINE forum and yet those espousing to be super gentle are _not gentle_ with other mamas.
> 
> I respect that some may see APmom98's tone / actions as not gentle. But tones of some of the responders were not gentle or UP with APmom98's feelings. So, you're nice to your kids, but to heck with everyone's feelings. Discussing different POV is not the same as hurting someone's feelings or making them feel attacked. Maybe that is why some people visit this board, to make it thought provoking - I come here for support, education, love, understanding and companionship. The way to get that and BE that is to choose your words carefully and keep an op's intent and feelings in mind. No one's going to listen someone when they're dismissive or flippant.
> 
> ...


----------



## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
THAT is why I hate coming to this forum. Because of the, your not GD enough BS. I am as gentle as I know how to be. Do I make mistakes? You bet! Don't you?But you can bet, that no matter what mistakes I do or don't make, they are all done with the 100% respect and love of my daughters'. That GD enough for you?

2nd this! I thought the OP's story was wonderfully encouraging. One of my goals in how I raise my dd is that she have empathy for others and consider their feelings when she makes her choices (let me clarify -- I am NOT raising her to exclusively consider what others will think or be a "people pleaser")

For a young child to realize that her actions have hurt someone else's feelings (which her mother communicated clearly and gently) and apologize for hurting someone's feeling - without being coerced into apologizing as many mainstream discipline techniques would advocate -is a GOOD THING!!!

Gentle Discipline is not passively letting your children to what ever the hell they feel like and just meekly nodding your head at it! Most posters here seem to believe in TRUE GD (as described by Dr. Sears, et al). But some seem to just take the gentle and leave out the discipline.

Dicipline is from the latin & means to teach or guide. It does not have to be punitive or damaging (as most posters here understand) but refusing to discipline your child does them a huge disservice. True gentle discipline is about teaching your child personal responisbility and respect for him/herself and others. THey need it to become healthy adults.

Rant over (for the moment anyhow!







)


----------



## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

to the OP: Was this one of those Wheelchair Accessible ramps on the outside of the store???


----------



## LittleLime (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jacksmama*
Unfortunately, it's becoming a more common occurence. Just today there are posts made that are condescening and dismissive of another mama's pov. You know what I find suprising? That this is a GENTLE DISCIPLINE forum and yet those espousing to be super gentle are _not gentle_ with other mamas.

I respect that some may see APmom98's tone / actions as not gentle. But tones of some of the responders were not gentle or UP with APmom98's feelings. So, you're nice to your kids, but to heck with everyone's feelings. Discussing different POV is not the same as hurting someone's feelings or making them feel attacked. Maybe that is why some people visit this board, to make it thought provoking - I come here for support, education, love, understanding and companionship. The way to get that and BE that is to choose your words carefully and keep an op's intent and feelings in mind. No one's going to listen someone when they're dismissive or flippant.

I don't like to personally confront, but LittleLime, I thought your post, as well as others were unecessarily mean spirited. Nothing I read in your post fostered an understanding of your POV. Rather I found it to be a dictatorial lesson on what APmom98 (and her supporters) are NOT, rather than what you embrace.

I'm wondering if the current tone I've noticed woven throughout mdc has to do with young, inexperienced mamas being young, passionate and immature in their delivery? Because it is the hope that as your mature and absorb life lessons that you become aware that, as I say often, everyone has their own life journey and their own lessons. Maybe some here are learning how to be sensitive and compassionate.

The way mockingbird approached, IMHO, was very respectful. She had a point but didn't coat it with a layer of holier than thou. I heard what she said, I didn't deflect it - because she didn't shoot it like a weapon.


ouch.

thanks for confronting me. i've been a jerk.


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

That was very cool of you LL.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Ditto that.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabohl*
what's TCS?

Taking Children Seriously
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&highlight=TCS
(I was wondering the same thing







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleLime*
and i guess i do think my style is better. so what. i haven't crowned myself the queen of anything...except my own universe.

personally, I found that funny lol :LOL And real- don't most of us really feel that way?
Ok, that was not related to the discussion at hand, but I wanted to share.

To the op- I think it's awesome that 1. you kept your cool. 2. your dd learned (genuinely learned) from the experience and 3. you are able to see and appreciate the fact that children ARE in fact capable of learning (gasp) without punishment of any kind! (that last part just really irks me about society)

jmo, for what it's worth


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I am wondering when this pissing contest is going to stop captain crunchy? It's getting really old
Funny since I haven't posted in GD for months.....but thanks for the flame!

I wasn't trying to upset the op and I am sorry if I did. I just put in my opinion (isn't that what this board is for, DIFFERING as well as similar opinions on certain things, or are we all meant to agree 100% of the time?) that I didn't feel that situation fell under GD...that is my personal opinion. I think using words like "dissapointed" are very manipulative and celebrating that you shamed your child into near tears, promising to try not to dissapoint you again (essentially)... is not GD...sorry, I stand by that. Many of you have said "no she is celebrating that her child learned a lesson,not that she was upset" -- but that to me, is exactly what she was celebrating at the bottom of it-- that her daughter got upset for dissapointing her...because we won't really know if she "learned the lesson" until she never runs down a ramp again will we?

I never queened myself anything...but I would hope other mamas would step in if they thought I wasn't practicing GD, but rather blind obedience under the title of GD...

Now let's all jump in and flame me for thinking this mama is a horrible person, parent, mother, etc....nope, in fact, I think she is probably a fantastic mother and person...I just didn't think this ONE instance was particularly GD... that's all I had to say!


----------



## wugpapa (Jul 8, 2005)

Seems as though we need a way to get some bonding out here. No one is ever satisifed.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34040


----------



## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Oh, please, CC. That's so unkind to post things that way. We are all doing our best to teach our children gentle ways. Unfortunately, as someone said previously... we fail to practice it with our fellow mamas.


----------



## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

I am the mama of three small children and it is a world of difference than when I had one child. Their personalities are all so different and I am being pulled in so many directions at once. That's all I want to say.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I wasn't trying to upset the op and I am sorry if I did. I just put in my opinion (isn't that what this board is for, DIFFERING as well as similar opinions on certain things, or are we all meant to agree 100% of the time?) that I didn't feel that situation fell under GD...that is my personal opinion. I think using words like "dissapointed" are very manipulative and celebrating that you shamed your child into near tears, promising to try not to dissapoint you again (essentially)... is not GD...sorry, I stand by that. Many of you have said "no she is celebrating that her child learned a lesson,not that she was upset" -- but that to me, is exactly what she was celebrating at the bottom of it-- that her daughter got upset for dissapointing her...because we won't really know if she "learned the lesson" until she never runs down a ramp again will we?










You just don't get it, do you?

This mama is not rejoicing in the fact that her child "learned a lesson"-
She stated, clear as day, that she was proud of herself for holding her temper.
Yes, this is a discussion board, and, yes, opinions are shared, but yours was shared in a rather judgemental way, both in this post as well as your previous one. How would you feel if someone posted on your threads explaining everything you did wrong, and why they disagree with you?
The OP wasn't asking for your blessing on her actions. She's not going to get bracelets made that say WWCCD? Perhaps we could just rejoice with her, or keep your "opinion" (which in this case just seems like another word for "judgement") to yourself?


----------



## burke-a-bee (Jan 8, 2005)

:


----------



## MomInCalifornia (Jul 17, 2003)

I remember when I had only one small child. It was so easy to see other parents and pass judgments on the way they delt with their children. I really thought I knew all. I had a degree in early childhood education, I had worked with many children, and I was going to do it all right, all the time!

Then my one baby grew up and started walking and talking, and then I had another baby, and by older child was now running and sceaming...life became much less clear cut, and I became much less judgmental, and life with one child started to feel like a vacation. I'm sure moms of 3, 4,5 and more children could say the same thing about having only 2.

Children are hard, parenting can be darn near impossible many days.

I too would rejoice if I was able to keep my calm when I really wanted to loose it.


----------



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scrappingmom*
APmom98.... as a mother of soon to be 10(human children








)









You have 10 kids?

~Nay


----------



## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I really appreciate learning about GD from more experienced mothers, or even from mothers who are experiencing something similar with their own children. The rest is just Monday-morning quarterbacking.


----------



## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbigailsMomSarah*
I remember when I had only one small child. It was so easy to see other parents and pass judgments on the way they delt with their children. I really thought I knew all. I had a degree in early childhood education, I had worked with many children, and I was going to do it all right, all the time!

Then my one baby grew up and started walking and talking, and then I had another baby, and by older child was now running and sceaming...life became much less clear cut, and I became much less judgmental, and life with one child started to feel like a vacation. I'm sure moms of 3, 4,5 and more children could say the same thing about having only 2.

Children are hard, parenting can be darn near impossible many days.

I too would rejoice if I was able to keep my calm when I really wanted to loose it.









This is expressed so well, AbigailsmomSarah. I honestly considered myself an expert when I had one twenty month old daughter. :LOL My judgement of others knew no bounds, though I tried to have the decency not to express it. I now have only two daughters, and my parenting mentors are mamas with three or more kids of boys and girls.


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

APMom - i'm proud of your ability to calm yourself, ignore some instincts i think most of us have, express yourself in a calm manner, and get through to your 3yo!! it could have escalated into something much louder/more stressful/less productive. you did it!! it'll only get better and better from here!! examine your OWN heart about the words you use. if you feel that it gets the message across that YOU are trying to send, use them. if it doesn't, don't. only YOU can own that decision.









and about the other snarky stuff:

i have to wonder...at what point do we cease to be normal, fallable mothers/parents and just become automotons who don't allow ourselves to feel or *god forbid* express raw emotions around our children? i'm all for examining my own behavior...i'm an introspective person. but i'll be danged if i'm gonna pick apart every single sentence that i ever utter to my child and censor myself to the point where i'm barely alive. sometimes it seems like many threads on here are about nitpicking and setting up ridiculous expectations for normal moms who are LIVING LIFE while raising children as well.

i agree that experience changes us. my son is 2.5 and boy am i humbled. it's one thing to live a life of conviction and principles, which i believe most of us do. it's quite another to be inflexible in those convictions and unwavering in its application to our own and others' lives. we are all going to mess up, we are all going to disappoint ourselves, we are all going to have moments that could have been handled better. the victories occur when we are able to escape those moments. it's not as valuable to me to never fail as it is to fail and improve oneself. to recognize our own faults and our own counterproductive instincts and work actively to prevent the pitfalls we recognizein our own lives. APMom was in a tight spot. Her nerves were frayed and her kids were being challenging for whatever reason. We've all been there, and we all will be there again. I don't find it valuable to proclaim her decisions as counter to our very varied interpretations of GD or even just good parenting in general. Rather, can we not all reflect on how this could be us and how we can use APMom as an example of collecting oneself and making positive decisions about our behavior? Can we not see her success as relative to her own experience? She avoided a pitfall that she has identified in her OWN life. Even if you disagree with her ultimate strategy, can you not see it as an improvement over what COULD have happened? The poor decisions we have ALL made in our own lives?

again, success is not about never failing. it's about recognizing those failures and learning from them. by that definition, no matter WHAT you feel about the words she chose, APMom's is a story of success.


----------



## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i was pretty excited for the OP







!
and in a way i can see what captain crunchy is saying too, we don't want to manipulate our kids but i'm not entirely convinced it applies to the OP.

i have said to my kids that "i am disappointed in your behaviour" and i'm not too sure what i think about it. one the one hand, owning my own feelings by using I statements is more a reflection of me, and less of them, and secondly, when my kids are doing things they have been repeatedly asked NOT to (for whatever reason, safety, we're in a hurry, it's hurting someone etc etc) - and we're talking 5 times in the last 5 minutes to stop - then yes, i feel disappointed that they aren't listening.

i think it's good to express our feelings in a constructive way, we need to teach our kids it's okay to have feelings that are not all positive and that we can share them in a way that doesn't have to 'hurt' another person, and kids do need to realize that their action does impact other people and sometimes, it does impact others in a negative manner.

and you know, we are all human, i know i don't live up to the ideals of GD by any means even though i do my best. it was a lot easier when it was myself and my dd, now with 4 kids and a husband who works out of town 7 out of 12 days (which means an exhausted mama), you gotta celebrate the small successes because they are important and they inspire you to keep trying and have hope.

mandi


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Michele


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Here is my take on the sentence the OP used...

"If you run down that ramp I will be disappointed in you"...manipulation..you are using your emotions to try to get a result..manipulating the situation

"I am disappointed in you" said after she ran down the ramp...an expression of how you feel but not manipulation, after all there is nothing to be gained...manipulation requires you are trying to get something by your actions.

The child understood and felt bad for her actions...I think that's good...people who don't understand how their actions affect others have a disadvantage. Mama expressed her emotions calmly and child expressed her emotions, they discussed it, the felt better after it and a lesson was learned by both...maybe the child will run down the ramp again, maybe she won't, doesn't matter..it was still a good lesson.

I think it was a good thing AP Mama..wtg!


----------



## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inezyv*
This is expressed so well, AbigailsmomSarah. I honestly considered myself an expert when I had one twenty month old daughter. :LOL My judgement of others knew no bounds, though I tried to have the decency not to express it.
















:

It is so easy to judge when you haven't been there.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleMiller*
i have to wonder...at what point do we cease to be normal, fallable mothers/parents and just become automotons who don't allow ourselves to feel or *god forbid* express raw emotions around our children? i'm all for examining my own behavior...i'm an introspective person. but i'll be danged if i'm gonna pick apart every single sentence that i ever utter to my child and censor myself to the point where i'm barely alive. sometimes it seems like many threads on here are about nitpicking and setting up









: You know what, a long time ago I saw a thread here where a mother was saying that she refused to ever get upset or be affected by her daughter's behavior. She said that her daughter was screaming at her to "Get mad at me!" and to get angry and she would just smile and refuse to get upset. She got a lot of praise for it but honestly it really freaked me out. This girl is crying out for her mother to show some *real* emotion. She's specifically telling her mother this and she still gets totally fake behavior. This is not normal. Children deserve to see us real and raw. While I completely see the benefit of us needing to keep our tempers in check and work to be gentle I think there is an extreme of being totally fake and untrue to our emotions that can actually damage our children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
"I am disappointed in you" said after she ran down the ramp...an expression of how you feel but not manipulation, after all there is nothing to be gained...manipulation requires you are trying to get something by your actions.

I think actually she said "I'm dissapointed that you didn't listen to me." I do think that's a lot different. Dissapointed in the action rather than the person.


----------



## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

APmom98: Isn't it funny that one little post can spark so much thinking, tons of discussion and the presentation of so many pov?







: :LOL


----------



## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jacksmama*
APmom98: Isn't it funny that one little post can spark so much thinking, tons of discussion and the presentation of so many pov?







: :LOL

yet another way that hers is a story of success.


----------



## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaAllNatural*














:

I think actually she said "I'm dissapointed that you didn't listen to me." I do think that's a lot different. Dissapointed in the action rather than the person.









yep...that's right...and that is different than disappointed in you...guess I read that too fast.


----------



## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

i only have one babe right now, but have had this same situation when my 3 stepkids were young! i think you did a great job









did anyone else notice the part where she's starting to drive out of the parking space, but STOPS, pulls back in, gets out of her seat, and GOES to her daughter? that to me is the heart of AP. it doesn't matter to me which GD technique, of the many out there, the OP used. it matters to me that she and her daughter are so closely attached that she simply could not drive off when her daughter was crying.


----------



## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

***Brilliant***



michelemiller said:


> i have to wonder...at what point do we cease to be normal, fallable mothers/parents and just become automotons who don't allow ourselves to feel or *god forbid* express raw emotions around our children? i'm all for examining my own behavior...i'm an introspective person. but i'll be danged if i'm gonna pick apart every single sentence that i ever utter to my child and censor myself to the point where i'm barely alive. sometimes it seems like many threads on here are about nitpicking and setting up ridiculous expectations for normal moms who are LIVING LIFE while raising children as well.


----------



## sweetest (May 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *APMom98*
We use phrases like "Where are our listening ears today?" and make a big game out of looking in our mouths, under our feet, in our tummy, to find our ears when we're not listening...After we find our listening ears, we put them on our head, really tightly, then repeat the request. They do it to me, if I'm distracted (reading posts on MDC, for example







) And I don't respond quickly, they'll say "Mommy, are you wearing your listening ears?" "No, honey, I wasn't....let's see if I can find them...oh here they are, I forgot them under my left foot.....okay, they are on now, I'm sorry, could you please repeat yourself?" It's our way of making sure that we're being heard in a lighthearted manner.









I love this! I tried it with my dd this weekend and it was so great!!!!!!!
When she was ignoring me (its much more fun to dump out 50lbs of dog food) I said "Sydney, are you wearing your listening ears?" She puts her little hands up to her ears, twists the air a bit then says "okay, now Im listening" So when I said "its time to pick up the dog food" we scooped it up together.
















Thanks for sharing this!!!!


----------



## maemaesmama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
I am wondering when this pissing contest is going to stop captain crunchy? It's getting really old.

THAT is why I hate coming to this forum. Because of the, your not GD enough BS. I am as gentle as I know how to be. Do I make mistakes? You bet! Don't you?But you can bet, that no matter what mistakes I do or don't make, they are all done with the 100% respect and love of my daughters'. That GD enough for you?

I just came from a seperate thread after responding much the same way you have here. I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for voicing your opinion. It has occured to me that as AP parents we feel we should praise the good, and gently find a way to discipline the undesirable, but we certainally don't follow these guidelines when we address one another. Shouldn't we RESPECT & LOVINGLY SUPPORT all of earth's creatures who make an effort to conciously give 100% in every way they know how. EVOLVE DAMNIT!!!!!


----------



## maemaesmama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaOui*
I am the mama of three small children and it is a world of difference than when I had one child. Their personalities are all so different and I am being pulled in so many directions at once. That's all I want to say.

I remember having my perfect 4yr old,a nd newborn daughters and watching in horror as other mothers franticly yelled, spanked, and pulled their hair out trying to manage 3 or more children. Now that I ma expecting my 4th babe, and have met the challanges of the 3 little personalities of my own children I think back, and laugh. It is SOOOO very different meeting the needs of 3 very different little spirits now 8,4, & 2. I strive to practice GENTLE LOVING discipline, or redirection for them when I am at my witts end, but sometimes fall short of my own expectations. In the end I ma sure of one thing we are family A REAL FAMILY of diverse ideas, needs, and passions. They are learning so much by living this life with one another,a nd I thank GOD, or what ever for lending me this opportunity to DO MY BEST, and learn so much from souls so young.


----------

