# is cio ever ok?



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

i will be brief.
i think there has been a MAJOR misunderstanding and look forward to responding to
those who gave helpful/thoughtful advice
and those who became very angry, hurtful, and mean to another mother in a time of need and weakness....
but first i want to understand:
is it only called crying it out at night?
or can they cry it out during the day too?
when do you see it ok to put your
baby, toddler,or child
down and let him cry while you.....
watch?
leave the room?
pray for help?
take a shower (with both hands)for the first time in tooooooo long.....?
get something hot out of the oven?
is there an age limit or difference?
is it EVER situational?
is there a time limit?
one minute?
10?
more?
can it ever help more than it hurts?
do you think babies, toddlers, or children ever want to be untouched or given personal space in order to work things out?
thank you for helping me learn more about mothering
that is why we are here
p.s. please no angry hysterical rants about how mothering.com is going straight to hell by talking about this.
thanks


----------



## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

is it only called crying it out at night?
or can they cry it out during the day too?

**Nope, CIO is day or night....

when do you see it ok to put your
baby, toddler,or child
down and let him cry while you.....
watch?

**I guess it's situational... If he's an older toddler and tantruming and is upset about something and really does want to be left alone to vent, that's fine...I like to vent alone sometimes too. But if comfort is what the child wants, it's never ok to withold it.

leave the room?

**IMO, it's never ok. I guess if you're on the brink of doing something absolutely horrible to your child, it's better to walk out of the room...I guess that's a better solution.

pray for help?
**hahaha...I did this enough during the colic days. Usually I prayed that God would help me not freak out because Bran was screaming for his 4th hour in a row...but usually I prayed while I was walking Bran around patting him. Hard to pray when you're getting screamed at...









take a shower (with both hands)for the first time in tooooooo long.....?
**Nope... At least keep the shower door open and hang a foot out for the toddler to hold on to. To this days, most of my showers are 60 seconds long with the shower door open, water spraying all over the floor, and me hanging a body part out of the shower to be held...

get something hot out of the oven?
**LOL, that should only take a second, so I guess it's probably not CIO. If nothing else, take the tantruming child to the oven, turn off the oven, and keep comforting until you can safely put the non-screaming baby down.

is there an age limit or difference?
**Older children may be able to verbalize their desires to be left alone to cry. Younger infants/toddlers aren't able to do so. They also need parents to help balance them out... I don't think it's ever ok to let a baby-toddler cry alone (unless you are at that point where you will do something seriously harmful to the baby. I'm talking the 1 in a million chance where you will hit the baby or something. Then, it's better to walk away).

is it EVER situational?
**Every situation warrants the parents to at least try to comfort the child. Most of the time CIO is for the convenience of the parent....the child's needs come first.

is there a time limit?
One minute?
10?
more?

**The minimum amount of time it takes to get to the child. Like I said, the parent should ALWAYS at least attempt to comfort the child. And the parent should never ever leave the baby or toddler to "work it out themselves"...most of them still need the parent's help.

can it ever help more than it hurts?
**Not according to scientific research...

do you think babies, toddlers, or children ever want to be untouched or given personal space in order to work things out?
**Yeah, but I think that comes when a child is older. If nothing else, stay by the baby/toddler, pat his back, or reassure the child that you are there when he is done venting frustrations.

That being said, there is a HUGE difference between letting your child cry when you are holding/comforting them, and abandoning them to let them deal. Children/babies/adults sometimes need to cry...it's the abandoning them part that is bad. Heaven knows Bran's cried in my arms before...sometimes it's just how they release emotions. But letting him sit in a room alone to cry is emotionally harmful to the child, IMO...


----------



## TeaBag (Dec 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
i will be brief.
i think there has been a MAJOR misunderstanding and look forward to responding to
those who gave helpful/thoughtful advice
and those who became very angry, hurtful, and mean to another mother in a time of need and weakness....
but first i want to understand:
is it only called crying it out at night?
or can they cry it out during the day too?
when do you see it ok to put your
baby, toddler,or child
down and let him cry while you.....
watch?
leave the room?
pray for help?
take a shower (with both hands)for the first time in tooooooo long.....?
get something hot out of the oven?
is there an age limit or difference?
is it EVER situational?
is there a time limit?
one minute?
10?
more?
can it ever help more than it hurts?
do you think babies, toddlers, or children ever want to be untouched or given personal space in order to work things out?
thank you for helping me learn more about mothering
that is why we are here
p.s. please no angry hysterical rants about how mothering.com is going straight to hell by talking about this.
thanks


Okay, here's my take on this. No, it isn't only called CIO at night, it happens during the day as well for some people. The problem is that most people are of the (false) impression that children are somehow supposed to sleep through the night at a certain age, no matter what. No matter about teething/developmental milestones/family changes and upsets. The term CIO means to leave your child alone to CRY BY THEMSELVES....without comfort, without your presence.

There is a HUGE difference between allowing your child to cry themselves into hysterics because they want you and taking a much needed break for yourself. Taking something out of the hot oven? Our little game is "Behind the silver line, behind the silver line, who can stay behind the silver line?" in this totally dumb sing-songy voice, until they are all three behind the silver line (meaning out of the kitchen) for the 45 seconds it takes me to get something out of the over. Even my 14 month old is starting to understand that one, she's heard it so much. There's an age where children do sometimes need to work things out on their own. My son is almost six and he's *getting to* that age. Where I will say "I really don't like your attitude right now, do you need to take some alone time and figure out what's wrong so we can fix it?" I DON'T think that a 14 month old needs to learn to work things out on their own. Even my 28 month old isn't quite capable of that one, although there are days that I will suggest she take a few minutes of alone time if she needs it....and if I make that suggestion, she usually will, I think mostly because she likes to copy big brother.







. Taking a shower? Alone? What's that? Well, if I feel that I need a shower alone, I play peek a boo with the shower door. Baby may not love it, but I feel it's better than shutting her in a room alone while I do it.

And I left your most important question (in my opinion) for last. Can it ever help more than it hurts? Nope. Never. Sorry, but my opinion. It will ALWAYS hurt. They may sleep, yep. They may not call out for us. But is that what we really, really want to teach them? Not for us, it isn't. I'd rather go on no sleep for months and years at a time, and know for certain that my children trust me to come when they need me. Because soon enough, the will be 15-16-17 years old and I want them to know, deep in their soul, that no matter what the situation, no matter what the problem, no matter how bad they think it is, I will ALWAYS come for them. I will always answer them when they call for me. Always. And that's something they learn now. Either they can trust me or they can't. And I want it to be second nature....if I'm in trouble, and I can't handle it, I KNOW Mom and Dad will be there for me. It isn't something we can say and have them believe, they have to FEEL it, in their heart, in their soul.

How do I know? Because I didn't feel it. I never felt it. I knew, as far back as I can remember....They wouldn't help me. They wouldn't come. If I needed them, they wouldn't be there. And, so I may not remember being left to CIO, but I can guarantee you that I was. Because I NEVER TRUSTED MY PARENTS TO BE THERE WHEN I NEEDED THEM.

I'm changing that cycle with my kids. Sure, I'll be sleep deprived. Sure, I'll get frustrated, we all do. I'm human. But, personally, I will never believe that it will help more than it hurts.....Just my thoughts.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

No. I don't think CIO is OK. I think that crying is a fine response to big emotions but when a parent gives up and says "You're on your own. I refuse to respond or be attentive to your needs.", that's not respectful or attachment parenting. There may be times when a child cries and needs that release but a parent can certainly give the child space, if the child needs the space, without putting the child in a situation where the child is totally alone and unresponded to.
I have gone to the bathroom with a child on each boob because I really had to and I would rather not hear two crying babies while I did it and I just couldn't wait - especially since they were both falling asleep and interrupting that would take forever to get them asleep again. There are times when you have to juggle your needs with those of an infant/toddler/child but that I don't think that ever involves CIO. To me, CIO is a tool parents use to teach or punish or ignore a specific emotion because they feel it's not important due to the greater importance of the lesson being taught.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I don't think crying is the same as CIO. My daughter went through a period, in infancy, where she would fuss while she fell asleep and I patted her back. It only took a few minutes and she wasn't upset, just venting. It's perfectly OK for babies to cry but it's not perfectly OK for parents to completely disregard the crying.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

http://www.naturalchild.com/research...attention.html


----------



## cchrissyy (Apr 22, 2003)

to me, CIO means bedtime, but certaintly there are other times when parents choose to let their kids cry.
sometimes it's unfortunate but necesary, like if you're tending to another child or at the end of your rope and can't handle it in the best way anymore. Sometimes it's becuase you know they're crying to complain and not from need. and for some kids, giving them space or quiet to cry IS comforting them. You have to know yourself and your kid really well- know your limits, know their needs, and then do your best. I could't judge anybody for doing that!


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Like Kavamama said there is a difference between crying and CIO. I do think CIO can happen at any time of day. If your baby is crying and you leave it alone without comfort that is CIO. That said there was a time or two in my Dd's early days when after hours of crying I felt like I couldn't take it any more. I would put her down in her crib and leave for a brief period of time to compose myself. *For me at that time* I felt her crying alone for a few moments was better than me staying in that situation. The point was not for her to CIO though. Now I have left her crying while I ran to the potty. Even now in the morning DD will wake up and I'll nurse her back to sleep and try to slip out of bed to go to the bathroom. More often than not she wakes up and cries and I yell from the bathroom that I'll be back in just a minute. Again not CIO just a temporary separation that she's not happy with. When we have our new baby I'm sure there will be times both kids will need me and I may not be able to fully meet both needs at the same time and there will be some crying. All I can do is hope to minimize that. Being an AP parent doesn't mean your baby will never cry it just means doing your best to attend to their needs and not leave them feeling ignored or abandoned while they're crying (if the crying can't be avoided of course).


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

For me, CIO is LEAVING your child to cry alone when he or she obviously wants comforting. And that applies day or night. Leaving a child to cry alone in a crib.. or in their room.. is CIO.

CRYING is different. Yes, sometimes my toddler needs to cry as a release. But either dh or I will always stay RIGHT THERE, offering comfort.

If ds does not WANT to be held or talked to.. we tell him we are there when he needs us and we give him his space. When he does come to us, we are right there to hug, nurse (in my case) and offer empathy and validation for his feelings.


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

i don't think it is the preferred way to handle a situation, but i have done it when i was falling apart myself.

i had terrible (suicidal) ppd with ds1, and i let him cry himself to sleep a LOT. it was horrible. i was a mess. he is 3 now, and we have a wonderful relationship. these days he usually likes to be held while he cries, and this is what i do. sometimes, if he is having a fit at night, after trying this and that, i will finally tell him that i am very sorry that he is upset and mad at me, but i am exhausted and i need to go to bed too. and i love him very much, but i am not going to come back to the room if he keeps yelling. i am going to bed, and i will see him for hugs and kisses in the morning. he rarely yells after this speech. this works for us. obviously, this wouldn't work for all the mamas here in the commune.









i occasionaly let ds2 cry before falling asleep b/c when he does it, it is very brief (few minutes), and i need him to sleep so i can sleep. that's it. of course i am sorry that he is sad for those few minutes. but i don't believe this is going to irrevocably damage his attachment to me. (oh, and i have done it for the shower, though he is in the bathroom watching me through a clear shower curtain.) during the day he is in the sling 90% of them time with me kissing his head uncontrollably.









but, when we need to sleep, we sleep. else i lose it. big time. and then i'm not able to do the 90% with kisses thing.

i don't recommend cio. i recognize when i have done it that i'm not doing my best. i'm only human. i'm a work in progress.

what works for some will not work for others. i am impressed by the mamas who never cio. they clearly have resources within them that i don't have. but i don't think it necessarily makes them better mamas than me. just different. i love my boys as passionately as they love their kids.

trust yourself!


----------



## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

i read both your closed threads and your responses. i think at this point you have been flamed enough! hugs to you.

i don't cio is ever ok. if both dh and i are at our wits end with trying to get ds to sleep (we have a family bed) this is what we do...

we got rid our bed frame. mattress is on the floor so ds can get in and out. if it is 3 am and he just won't go to sleep, we close the door and go to sleep. we have completely child proofed our room so there is no way he can get hurt unless he turns into spiderman and starts scaling the walls!. he eventually makes his way into bed.

as for during the day...my ds showers with me. we have a bath/shower so when i am under rinsing soap, he stays at the other end. he understands, no problem. it fun, and he stays in the tub after i get out so i can have a few minutes to dry off and primp a little.

in the kitchen, we have a knock off platform like from one step ahead (my dh made ours) ds stands counter height with me while i am cooking, cleaning, etc...

i understand you are having a lot of trouble right now, but please undertand that cio it out day or night is not ok.

obviously situational crying like tantrums are completely different.

allyrae hit the nail on the head. everyone needs to cry sometimes. its the abandment during this time of need is what is wrong, imho.

i did it again. my posts are always long winded. my apologies!


----------



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I think CIO is okay only in extreme situations. My dd has severe reflux and screamed non-stop for hours at a time. I nearly went crazy. I was also dealing with my own PPD, mastitis, and a demanding 3 year old who was acting out in response to the stress in our home.

There were a couple days where she would cry and I _had_ to leave her for her own safely and mine. I swaddled her and put her in the bouncer, shut the door, and went to the other end of the house to escape until she went to sleep. I feel bad about it but I was doing the right thing. It was a very horrible time in my life.

I also had to let my baby scream in terror while I rolled her up like a burrito in order to push feeding tubes down her nose. She would have dehydrated if I hadn't done that but God it was hard. I'm so glad we are past that time.

My brother was shaken to death by a caregiver. He was special needs and I imagine that the caregiver didn't have the self-control to put him down and walk away.

Having lived through that horrible time, I can now see why a mom with less control or mental capacity could shake a baby.

Darshani


----------



## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Sometimes my toddler needs to throw his tantrums. He has that emotion that he needs to release. Sometimes he wants me to hold him during these tantrums, sometimes he wants to be by himself. BUT I AM ALWAYS AVAILABLE. Is it ok to allow your child to CIO (my definition of this is crying alone...period)?. Absolutely not. I responded to your other thread also. You may not have appreciated my answer, but I was being honest. I don't think I understand how a mother puts her screaming baby in a crib by itself, and then leaves. If your baby is going to cry, why not cry in arms? I think that is much more mentally (and physically) healthy for the baby.


----------



## Jaimep (Feb 26, 2004)

I have had to let my daughter cry in the carseat a couple times. When she was little she would get really upset in the carseat. So I basically never went anywhere. But when we HAD to go somewhere, she would cry sometimes. A couple times I had to stop the car, nurse her, hold her for a while, BUT we couldn't sit on the side of the road all day!!! So I had to put her back in the seat, play some baby CD's and drive home.

It was excurciating!! SOOO SADD!!! But it was not by choice to make her cry. It was a safety thing.

When i get really frustrated and feel like just letting her cry. I try to remind myself how I would feel if I didn't have her around anymore, and I remember that she is worth it all.


----------



## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I don't agree with CIO and we don't use it. I can't believe how many moms here feel it's acceptable either









I don't believe I understand what the misunderstanding/debate was over your OP either? you asked for opinions not solutions/alternatives,yk?


----------



## spsmom (Jun 19, 2004)

justice2-i so agree with you! i feel children should be aloud to express their emotions. it is our job our mothers to offer the appropriate environment for them to do this.

have you heard of the holding time by martha g. welch? it is a little on the controversial side, and i haven't tried it myself but my dear friend has and she swears by it. her 2 yr old dd is "tantrum prone" to put it lightly! she holds her very lovingly and keeps holding her through all the emotions until dd is calmed down again and is relaxed. i know it is more involved that that but that was a quick description without qouting the entire book!


----------



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*
I don't agree with CIO and we don't use it. I can't believe how many moms here feel it's acceptable either









I don't believe I understand what the misunderstanding/debate was over your OP either? you asked for opinions not solutions/alternatives,yk?

I'm scratching my head here too. Anyone notice the sticky at the top of this forum? It has been there for quite awhile. Seriously, check it out.


----------



## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spsmom*
justice2-i so agree with you! i feel children should be aloud to express their emotions. it is our job our mothers to offer the appropriate environment for them to do this.

have you heard of the holding time by martha g. welch? it is a little on the controversial side, and i haven't tried it myself but my dear friend has and she swears by it. her 2 yr old dd is "tantrum prone" to put it lightly! she holds her very lovingly and keeps holding her through all the emotions until dd is calmed down again and is relaxed. i know it is more involved that that but that was a quick description without qouting the entire book!

I had not heard of it put in those terms, but Mothering had a wonderful article a few editions back about crying in arms. I think this is a wonderful and loving way to allow your child to cry if that is what the child needs. Sometimes a child DOES need to cry and that child needs to know that you are there for them, that you love them and that you won't leave them to figure it out themselves.


----------



## Elphaba (Nov 19, 2001)

But crying in arms is NOT NOT NOT CIO.

CIO is a deliberate action taken by the parent. The parent ignores the child's cries ON PURPOSE to achieve a desired behavior modification.

A child crying in a carseat or having a release of strong emotions, is not the same thing as sitting there and listening to your child cry with a hard heart. Sometimes the parent can't help the child, but they damn sure ought to try instead of knowing their child, their BABY, needs help and willfully ignoring them in the hopes of breaking their will and forcing them to sleep.


----------



## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

I completely agree with your entire post, Elphaba. Please (please, please) don't think that I was likening crying in arms with CIO...they are two very, very different things.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

If you run a search there are long threads in this forum on CIO, as well as a few on Aletha Solter. Crying in arms is not CIO. CIO means to cry "It" out, with "it" being the need to get attention to the cries.

Solters book "the Aware Baby" is a very interesting approach for a "chronic" crier, or a child who seems to need the release of a long cry each day. Worth checking out.

As to the OP question, if you think you will hurt your child, it's always better to walk away. Other than that, no, it is not okay to CIO.


----------



## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

The couple of times I thought I was gonna lose it if ds didn't stop crying, I ran out and got dh and told him to hold ds for awhile while I pouted. Then, after hearing him cry for a few minutes in dh's arms, I really wanted to go back to him and so I did. If he hadn't been home, I would have called a neighbor or anyone else, even the mailman, to hold ds for 3 minutes while I screamed it out myself. The only situation I don't have figured out is when it is 3 a.m. and I have to pee and ds wakes up while I'm in the bathroom. Dh is a heavy sleeper and won't hear ds crying, and I don't want to scream "Mommy's coming!" from the bathroom, so ds ends up crying for a minute or two. But I don't think he is even really awake at that point, KWIM?

I think there is a difference between using CIO consciously as a sleep training method and being an AP mama at the end of her rope. I am NOT saying that this second scenario is okay or that we should say "that is alright" if a mama says it here, but I am saying that in our zeal to make sure no one is using CIO, we are scaring/offending people who had 1 second of weakness and then regretted it. I think it is like murder with degrees - it is all killing someone, but if it was premeditated, it is worse than if you did it in the heat of the moment. So, if it happened in the heat of the moment and the woman comes here for advice/reaction/opinion and says she feels terrible and doesn't know what to do, we shouldn't say, "You are a terrible person - leave!" We should say, "We have all been there at one point and here is what I did to comfort my child while maintaining my sanity." If someone comes here and continues to espouse CIO as being okay, *then* we can flame her out of existence. If our goal is to make sure no baby CIO, then we have to have a productive dialogue about other options and not a flame war. Trolls should not be excused, though.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Lilli78 you put that well.

When I have seen posts that said 'Last night was horrible. I lost it and left my baby to cry to sleep. I felt helpless and like a failure. I was afraid I would lose my mind. Help me figure out what to do different next time"...at least the one's I have seen, did not turn into a flaming locked thread.

I definitely do not think the OP is a troll or that she is here to say 'CIO is awesome! Everyone should do it!". I do think she was closer to advocating it than regretting it by her tone, and the ambiguity was reflected in the different replies she received.


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:

Is CIO ever ok?
No.

And it doesn't fit with NFL values. If a child is crying, there is a reason. It is the parent's job to try to help the child with why she is crying, not ignore it. Holding her while she's crying and at the same time ignoring the true need is sending her mixed signals. It's like saying "Mama's here, but I don't care about your needs.". Another way of thinking of it is to imagine yourself in her shoes. Would you want someone to react with compassion and respect, or would you want someone to restrain you until you simply gave up. If it's simply you she needs then she wouldn't still be crying while you hold her.

Contrary to mainstream thinking, children are not second-class citizens. They are our future and should be treated with the kindness, stability and mutual respect which we wish to see in this World.

I come and go in this forum, as we have been co-sleeping for 7 years now, so I have not been following the other threads mentioned here. I do not condone any kind of rift at Mothering. I am confused by what I see here, debates over NFL versus non-NFL issues when it shouldn't even be an issue on an NFL parenting site.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't think CIO is ever "OK". I do think sometimes it is the lesser of several evils.

I have read the other threads and I can not support MJ's course of action. However I do not think she is a "bad mother". I have read some of her other posts and she does sound like a caring AP mother, most of the time. I think her lack of sleep clouded her judgement and now that she is seeing "positive" short term results from CIO, she is thinking she did the right thing. I really hope she is thinking about what some of the gentler posts said, about long term trust issues and the damage she may be doing to her bond with her child, because I think these are things that are truly very important to her and I would hate to see this relationship suffer because of her choices in this situation.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Not in my opinion.

There are times, as you mentioned, where logically you have to put down the baby to do something and perhaps the babe cries. Such as taking dinner out of the oven.

But that is about 10 seconds. AND I would hope you pick your babe right back up and help them understand its okay. Comfort them and reassure that all is well.

I don't think that is really what the focus is for the OP. I get the impression that you are trying to find some wiggle room where you won't find any.

My best advice to you is to surrender. Your needs for the next while are secondary. When you can get some help and take a break. Even if it is for 10 minutes.

Heck even now I ask for 1 more hour of sleep of Sundays to try and catch up from the week. DD is three and still nightwakes, but less often than when she was two or one or newborn.

You will slowly get back your sleep but it takes time if you choose to AP.

Sorry if my post seems cold I am hurrying. DD wants to go for a swim at the Y and my surf time is way over.


----------



## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Only in rare emergencies! I only let my daughter cry it out one or two days when I felt I would shake her if she didn't stop crying. Far better to cry alone for a little while than to have a parent who is out of control come to you.

BTW, I only "lost it" this way a couple of times. I called the Parent Hotline and they were very helpful. I got some therapy and this did not happen with the subsequent children.

Good luck and hang in there!


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I think CIO means whatever "it" is then the child has no option but to cry until she gives up. The child can cry about "it" until "it" goes away and the parent will not help with "it" no matter how the child cries. CIO means the parent stands their ground on the principle of winning a result NO MATTER WHAT. And I think that is never okay.

But I will give myself space by letting a child cry to some degree or denying some kind of access to me. Like I _will_ eat my dinner w/o a toddler on my lap and said toddler may cry right there and will _not_ get access to my lap. If my need for space is truly greater than a dc's need for total access, I will not sacrifice myself.

My 2yo is old enough to argue about bed and to cry about not getting what she wants including going to bed. I have held children in my arms, lying in bed as they wrestled and cried about bedtime. I have waited to tend to a crying child recently put to bed. I have returned many many times to promptly comfort, talk to, dance and sing for that child if not settled enough or to remove her if not sleepy enough. I will not put myself in a position in which I _have_ to stand my ground and not give in with crying. And I think that is the devastating element of CIO.

I guess many would disagree here with my own willingness to set the type of personal boundaries with my dc that I do. There are ways I must protect my space to remain healthy and available when it is most important. I must _balance_ my needs with the children's, not supress mine anytime they seem to conflict. Infants needs have a different kind of urgency than older children and I think I have gradually adjusted to their maturity so that I can tell when my needs win out.

I would go to the bathroom w/o the kids on my boobs, thank you very much. :nana: But I do carry my dd in there and let her sit on my lap but she can cry on the floor while I wipe my a** if she can't wait w/o crying!


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *deeporgarten*
I think CIO means whatever "it" is then the child has no option but to cry until she gives up. The child can cry about "it" until "it" goes away and the parent will not help with "it" no matter how the child cries. CIO means the parent stands their ground on the principle of winning a result NO MATTER WHAT. And I think that is never okay.

But I will give myself space by letting a child cry to some degree or denying some kind of access to me. Like I _will_ eat my dinner w/o a toddler on my lap and said toddler may cry right there and will _not_ get access to my lap. If my need for space is truly greater than a dc's need for total access, I will not sacrifice myself.

My 2yo is old enough to argue about bed and to cry about not getting what she wants including going to bed. I have held children in my arms, lying in bed as they wrestled and cried about bedtime. I have waited to tend to a crying child recently put to bed. I have returned many many times to promptly comfort, talk to, dance and sing for that child if not settled enough or to remove her if not sleepy enough. I will not put myself in a position in which I _have_ to stand my ground and not give in with crying. And I think that is the devastating element of CIO.

I guess many would disagree here with my own willingness to set the type of personal boundaries with my dc that I do. There are ways I must protect my space to remain healthy and available when it is most important. I must _balance_ my needs with the children's, not supress mine anytime they seem to conflict. Infants needs have a different kind of urgency than older children and I think I have gradually adjusted to their maturity so that I can tell when my needs win out.

I would go to the bathroom w/o the kids on my boobs, thank you very much. :nana: But I do carry my dd in there and let her sit on my lap but she can cry on the floor while I wipe my a** if she can't wait w/o crying!

I don't disagree with your willingness to set personal boundaries with your child. In fact, I totally agree. I have eaten dinner with a toddler grabbing my legs as well. And, like you said, it's about balance. When I went to the bathroom with kids on my boobs it was balancing my need for them to be asleep and my need to use the bathroom and their need to nurse and take a nap. I don't think that sacrificing yourself to your child is a good idea because if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of your child(ren). But surrendering to the demands of motherhood while juggling and balancing your personal boundaries doesn't ever require or leave room for the use of CIO in my world. Does that make sense?


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Yeah, I used the teasing smilie cause I was being funny (trying anyway) and I don't have anything against what you said or did. After all, my dd sits on my lap in there it's not much different


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *deeporgarten*
Yeah, I used the teasing smilie cause I was being funny (trying anyway) and I don't have anything against what you said or did. After all, my dd sits on my lap in there it's not much different









heh. I just wanted to reiterate your point about finding balance.


----------



## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

I think first off you should read the sticky on this forum http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=179657

Now what I think, I am glad you are getting clarification on what CIO in tales. I will give you samples of times in MY life where Rainey has cried and I have not scooped her up and saved the day.

When I have to use 2 hands to get something hot in the oven and she decides that this does not fit in to her happiness at the very moment- I will tell her (yes sometimes she is crying) that I have to put this in so we can eat but then I will hold her, she just has to wait a second. I am still there and talking to her in a loving voice so she knows I am not mad.

When I have to run and grab a diaper and she has to stay upstairs with her dad because if she moves we are going to have a huge poopie mess all over- I will let her dad talk to her and try to calm her, I will yell up "Mama is comin' I got to get you a diaper" And she will have a fit and cry until I get back, but she is not alone and she is safe.

There has been 5 times in her life I can count that she has lost control and freaked out and there was nothing her father or I could do to make her calm down. NOTHING- it just took time, but we never ever left her alone, we held her and if she wanted down we let her down. Sometimes when she gets in these fits it is almost like she makes herself even madder that she works herself up even more. But we walk, we drive, we talk, we take a shower anything, and most of the time it takes 2 hours of crying for her to just calm down. The culprit??? It is always been late at night when someone has gotten in her face and freaked her out- it is like she screams GET AWAY- but then goes to the extreme and screams for hours, even showers don't help and that is her one true love.

I think it does not matter what time of the day- if you let your child cry to prove a point to them, that they cant "manipulate you" that you must prove that you are the "parent" then it is harmful not helpful and does not teach respect and love. You children need to know they can trust you to be there in their distress even if it is stressing you. They need to know you are a safe place where their feelings are valued and they are respected. It goes full circle when they in turn will value your feelings and respect you. I don't think this can be accomplished standing on the other side of a door when your child screams "Mama Mama" because they are scared and don't understand what is going on.


----------



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Crayon, you sounds awesome







I have to admit that I am not nearly as good as you :LOL The only times my babies cried without me attending to them was in the car. Many times I stopped on the side of the road, but there gets to be a point when one just has to get home and not stuck on the side of the road.

They are 3 and 5 now and we deal with crying much differently now than when they are babies. Crying over not getting candy or something like that I do not pay much attention to. I will acknowledge their feelings that they want this candy or whatever, but I don't freak out making sure they don't cry over it. With my babies, if they were crying I was doing something to try to make it stop. My kids have never ever puked from crying and never will. I cannot even imagine what the screams must sound like with a child crying that hard.


----------



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

thanks for all of the clarifacation and advice!
i actually was under the impression that any time your child is crying and you are not holding them, they are "crying it out" it being their emotions and the out being until you meet their needs.
that said, after MUCH soul searching, i am very sure that my exp in question was not cio.
i never left her side
she had spent hours, for nights, throwing fits bc she was so overtired and she was just snowballing out of control
that passion and head strong will, that is my personality and hers (and we sometimes have some clashes...help me when she becomes 16! lol!)
i gently explained to her over and over what was happening and why
and she stoped crying down to a whimper after five minutes of crying....
and it was like she was finally letting go and surrendering
to sleep.
after spending hours and nights and days fighting me over it....
and when i set her down to cry it was the "end of my rope iam scaring myself" feeling...
but before i could even let go of that freaked out feeling in me..she was pretty much asleep
and i sat there SHOCKED
and amazed
it was not like i had a plan like: you are not gettin gout till you go to sleep.
it was like she just needed her own space to let go of her energy and she was so tired and confused she did not know what to do and it was 5 AM after over a week of no sleep and i had no wehre or no one to turn to and i could not do it a second more
i wish i had not let it get to that point///
that was my mistake and i used the threat the next night of it because i was so scared of her doing it again..the night before she still had not gotten her full nights sleep
the threat part is what i regret too
i don't want to threaten into behavior
a moment of weakness for sure
and we did have a good bye ritual with the crib (i put it in the closet) and we talked about how we did not need to go in there any more because mom is going to be more patient and laina understands how important it is to sleep and sleep in the momy daddy bed.
it worked
but that 5 min scream fest was not a mistake
at that point she needed it
and so did i

it is hard when they are screaming for you and you hold them adn they are fighting to get away..
that was so confusing to me.
my dd nver shows that kind of hysteria unless she is beyond tired.
which has only happened once so far. thank god
and with the good advice i have gotten hopefully i will parent in such a away that it never happens again
but i swear...i thought that every shower that i have taken with her on the bath room floor in the bouncy crying
was me letting her cry it out
and the misunderstanding to me, was that i did want help adn advice and opinion
but i did not want anger
and my appologizes for letting my anger respond to that.
i was not thinking clearly anough to respond well (or even write my post the way i would right now)


----------



## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

I like this post much better- it seems like you have your head back- so to speak. You last few post seemed like you had nearly lost it- on that level, and I am glad to see that you have returned. I hope this does not sound mean, it is not ment to be mean at all- I send all









If I jumped on you it was mostly due to the nature that the last post were in and I do think also a few days after the fact you have calmed enough to talk about it in a way that doesnt make people freak out at you- it is kinda like if you scream fire- every one screams 911.

I am also very glad that you put the crib away and talked with her about it- that was a great thing to do- and at 14 months she may not have "gotten" it all, but it part of her trust building with you and it needed to be done.

I do think that if you had an "end of your rope" type moment and you were at the point that you were scared of what you would do, I guess then you pick the best of two bads. Better that you can learn from it than do something to physicaly hurt either of you.

Speaking of showers, do you ever let her take a shower with you? Rainey has never not taken a shower with me- unless her dad is watching her or she is alseep- but 99% of the time she is right there with me and she has her toys- when we had a bath tub I would fill the water up and she would play but now that we only have a working shower she just just plays in the mist of the shower.

Okay- it is past midnight and my baby is sitting on my lap- I must get her in bed! sweetdreams... And here is to happy babys and mamas at night!


----------



## srmina (Sep 10, 2004)

So what do you do when you have a child who routinely cries for 30 minutes while you hold her in your arms while she falls asleep? Who cries through every single dinner, no matter where you put her? Who cries every single time you go to the grocery store? Who cries everytime you lay her down on the floor on her back to go to the bathroom or get a bite to eat? Who has been known to cry for 4 hours straight while you hold her, bounce her, and try absolutely everything? My dd does this every day, and although she is way better now than a few months ago (when she was either crying or sleeping), she shows no signs of letting up at 15mo. We carry her or hold her nonstop all day long and she still cries. So what do you do when the crying just never ends? I don't want to let her cry EVER, but she simply cannot be calmed or comforted a lot of the time.

I think that for some children, it is simply impossible to keep them from crying. I never intentionally let her cry when I know she can be consoled. But what other option is there but to let them cry when you are providing all their needs, giving them comfort, and holding them constantly? I guess I just want to say that sometimes no matter how good your intentions, you are not always going to be able to prevent your baby from crying it out.


----------



## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srmina*
So what do you do when you have a child who routinely cries for 30 minutes while you hold her in your arms while she falls asleep? Who cries through every single dinner, no matter where you put her? Who cries every single time you go to the grocery store? Who cries everytime you lay her down on the floor on her back to go to the bathroom or get a bite to eat? Who has been known to cry for 4 hours straight while you hold her, bounce her, and try absolutely everything? ........

srmina, It sounds like you have a very high needs child. I also noticed your sig and wanted to offer you







. It sounds like you really have your hands full. I hope you are able to get some help during the day and that you have support. You might want to consider getting a sling. Particularly, a wrap style sling so you can wear your baby on your back comfortably and get some things done. Does your baby enjoy being outside? If I were as desperate as you sound, I would try and go outside frequently. This always calms down my kids (16 mos. and 3 yrs.). Hugs, mama!


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

My daughter cried it out in my arms for weeks until I realised she didn't want to be held to sleep. I did the reverse disservice to my child. As soon as I layed her down, she grumbled (but had stopped crying), but she quieted and with some stroking on her back, fell asleep. Not all infants want to be held to sleep, lets just clear that up. Some like to be in a more comfortable position, more fetal, on their bellies on a flat surface - like my daughter. There is no set rule, it is about listening to your OWN child. If I had listened to HER instead of following a strict rule I was insisting my child follow, I would not have tortured her (and myself) for two months.

That lesson taught me the first and most valuable of all - she is unique and has her own idea of comfort and her own space and needs. To meet these, I have to be aware. Put down the books, and watch my child: listen to HER.


----------



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I agree with what Calm said, your post sounds like you are at a much better place. I also second what she said about showers, except with my family it was baths. My DD and my DS took baths with me until my son was about 2, and now they will still come into the bathroom just to be with me when I take a bath. They pull up a little stool and say *Lets talk about something* :LOL I do bring my kids into the shower with me too as it is just so much easier. And if you child needs to be held in the shower, there is quite a variety of *water slings* out there now, that you can use while showering or swimming. They are made of sports jersey mesh material or some are made of solarveil which provides sun protection, and they dry quickly, like a swimsuit. I had never heard of it with my kids, but if I ever have another one I will use one.


----------



## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

I agree with what calm said and would like to elaborate....

I think AP *should* be defined as listening and responding to your baby's needs, rather than imposing impossible standards on PARENTS so they can get nice little pats on the back.

My son was like calm's child (still is)..........when he was an infant we thought we'd go nuts, he cried so much. When I FIRST had him I was tied to that laudry list of "Things AP Parents Do", so we never put him down to cry. And, as calm mentioned, the first time I DID, he fussed for a while but clearly got CALMER, as opposed to in arms where he would often grow hysterical.

So, to answer the OP, YES! CIO is OK for some babies. And I'm sure it's terribly detrimental to others. I think we need to be less hung up on the lables of what make us a bad APer and just LISTEN to our babies. My daughter I could have NEVER let her CIO.......she would have gotten hysterical. My son...he generally CANT calm himself down if he's in arms and sleepy. I don't understand it, but I'm not going to fight it so that I can be a perfect mama on paper.

And in respect to the questions.........it's all about the baby, IMHO. In the examples listed, yeah, for some babies it WOULD be CIO and it WOULD be harmful. For others it wouldn't be. The wonderful thing about babies is they don't fit into nice little catagories like that.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I see this quite a bit with the CIO debate ~ that it people view it differently. I would say that a child who doesn't want to be held is not CIO but that's just me.

Oh, I also wanted to address the issue of crying because this was confusing to me when I debated CIO a while back. I think most kids (and adults) whould be able to cry when they want/need to. As a new mom, I tried everything to prevent my child from crying, wich was a bad choice, imo, because I realized that she got some satisfaction from crying occasionally.

So, I wanted to add that supporting your child when they need/want to cry is not CIO, also, imo.


----------



## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*

My brother was shaken to death by a caregiver. He was special needs and I imagine that the caregiver didn't have the self-control to put him down and walk away.

Darshani

wow. thanks for posting this.


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I see this quite a bit with the CIO debate ~ that it people view it differently. I would say that a child who doesn't want to be held is not CIO but that's just me.

So, I wanted to add that supporting your child when they need/want to cry is not CIO, also, imo.


this is why i don't think the term "cio" is very useful. i dislike labels like this.

if you are responding to a child who doesn't want to be held, or wants to be alone (i have one son like that), then it isn't cio?
but then if cio means "not responding to a crying child when in fact they would be comforted by a response" then it seems far clearer that cio is not good.

i suppose the ferberizers are the one who coined this term, right? i think ap-ers should only use it in response to ferberizing, b/c that is the context in which it makes the most sense.

i agree with those who said that you need to listen to what your child needs. (and sometimes we fail at this. we are human. then we try again.)


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Funny, I always thought that CIO=ferberize.

Do we have a place where we define our acronyms?


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I just read through more and wanted to comment.

(Why, I don't know, because I hate getting involved in heated topics.)

Defining CIO as anything other than ferberizing is just frought with complications. It's just impossible to know what someone means when they use that term in any other context. It's also a meaninless term when talking about toddlers, who cry often to get their "wants" met, not just their "needs."

I think it's important to respect a toddler's feelings- it's ok to be angry, it's ok to want something you can't have. And it's important to let them know that it's NOT OK to treat mommy, daddy or others badly because he or she is angry. Beyond that, holding or not holding, parental presence or not- how am i to know what another person's kid needs?

Also, I think everyone here knows their own child's personality- and wouldn't make their child feel hopless, fearful or desperate on purpose.

Anyway- this is a tough topic. I just mean we should define our terms narrowly, because a lot can be read into three little letters.

Jennifer
(who HATES it when people try to hug her when she's throwing a tantrum)


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Me again. Just read a few follows on my babe's sleep issues, and wanted to make it clear that when I layed my daughter down, she quieted, so I wouldn't define that as CIO. When a baby is hysterical in your arms, and you are grabbing for colic medicine and checking diapers and patting their backs and doing all those things we do at bedtime to try to find their need - there is a last possible thing to try and that is to lay them down, preferably on their side or belly (disclaimer - doctors say not to lay infants on their belly) STAY WITH THEM and stroke their back - to see if this calms them. This may sound obvious to some, but it wasn't to me *cringe*.

I have been told it is a very small percentage of babies who are like my DD, but it is still one last thing to try. If the baby gets more hysterical or it doesn't help, of course, hold them again. I am NOT an advocate of CIO, I mean, that stands for crying it out - cry what out? Trust? Anyway, I just wanted to bring it to attention that some babies like to sleep a different way, that's all.

Thanks.


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Glad you're doing better, MJ...
LOL...the mamas here aren't as bad as it might have seemed to you at first...
When I was really new here I messed up and started a thread called "spanking"...







:














:
It was just like that analogy that a mama gave earlier about when you're somewhere and someone yells "FIRE" and people start calling 911...lol..
Anyway...about what exactly is CIO...
I think of it as the technique advocated in most "how to" books about babies and sleep:..."put them in their crib, close the door, and don't go back in no matter how hard they scream. They'll get used to it."
The "it", IMO, is their need for their mommy.
It's a no good very bad rotten awful thing for doctors and experts to tell new parents.
As a side note, when my brother was a baby, he had to go to the ER after giving himself a hernia one night when he was 9 months old because of this...









Quote:

i wish i had not let it get to that point///
that was my mistake and i used the threat the next night of it because i was so scared of her doing it again..the night before she still had not gotten her full nights sleep
the threat part is what i regret too
I think that was really the only thing we all wanted to hear...
Like that Maya Angelau quote about "I did what I knew then...when I knew better I did better"...or something like that...








What is "ferberize", by the way?


----------



## srmina (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *be11ydancer*
srmina, It sounds like you have a very high needs child. I also noticed your sig and wanted to offer you







. It sounds like you really have your hands full. I hope you are able to get some help during the day and that you have support. You might want to consider getting a sling. Particularly, a wrap style sling so you can wear your baby on your back comfortably and get some things done. Does your baby enjoy being outside? If I were as desperate as you sound, I would try and go outside frequently. This always calms down my kids (16 mos. and 3 yrs.). Hugs, mama!

I wore/slung/carried my dd until about 14mo when I just could not do it anymore being pregnant and with her unable to do positions appropriate for a baby her size, like on the hip or on the back. Luckily she has been OK with this...I still hold her all day sitting down or playing with her on the floor. She LOVES being outside and we do try to do that a lot. We have tried pretty much everything with her. What has worked best is getting her on a better anti-seizure med with fewer side effects and providing her with Neurontin, which helps to stabilize her brain and mood since she still averages 10 seizures a day. We also try to eliminate as much pain as possible for her, which unfortunately is not always possible.

I am sure I will get majorly flamed for this, but I always wondered if moms who never let their kids cry or cry it out just got really lucky and have easily consolable, well-tempered children. My dd has enough needs that two people taking care of her full time still cannot always satisfy all of them. I think what we should all be thinking about here is INTENT. Is the mom trying her utmost to provide for the child and all of her needs? If so, even if some crying has to happen, I simply cannot fault this mother. But if the mother is INTENTIONALLY allowing the child to cry, that is another story. I think all of us are opposed to this.


----------



## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I never let my baby cry, period. If he was going to cry and I could not fix it ... then I held him and did my best to comfort him and let him know I would always be there for him. Period.

Day, night, whenever. If I missed a shower, so be it. Nothing in this world is more important to me than responding to him.

He's 23 months now and I can hardly get him to stop and give me a hug. They are only small for a such a short period of time ... I can't imagine ever, ever letting a baby CIO.


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elphaba*
But crying in arms is NOT NOT NOT CIO.

CIO is a deliberate action taken by the parent. The parent ignores the child's cries ON PURPOSE to achieve a desired behavior modification.

A child crying in a carseat or having a release of strong emotions, is not the same thing as sitting there and listening to your child cry with a hard heart. Sometimes the parent can't help the child, but they damn sure ought to try instead of knowing their child, their BABY, needs help and willfully ignoring them in the hopes of breaking their will and forcing them to sleep.

Elphaba-







Great words, and my thoughts exactly.

DS#1 was a colicky baby and literally had to cry to sleep every single night of his life for 5-6 months straight. We never left him alone, always held him through it, etc.

DS#2 just today (at 11 weeks) cried for about 20 minutes straight until he fell asleep in the car. I could only reach back, stroke his hand, and talk to him. I was near-tears myself b/c I could not help him at all. Couldn't pull off the highway with my toddler to hold him or whatever the option would have been (there really wasn't one). I wasn't ignoring his needs, I just couldn't attend to them a I normally would like to. There's a difference. What about kids who HATE the car and cry the entire time they're in their seat? Do you just not go anywhere until they grow out of it? If you have another child, even if that was an option, it would be impossible.

So, that's a little disjointed, but just the thoughts off the top of my head tonight...


----------



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I just read through more and wanted to comment.

(Why, I don't know, because I hate getting involved in heated topics.)

Defining CIO as anything other than ferberizing is just frought with complications. It's just impossible to know what someone means when they use that term in any other context. It's also a meaninless term when talking about toddlers, who cry often to get their "wants" met, not just their "needs."

I think it's important to respect a toddler's feelings- it's ok to be angry, it's ok to want something you can't have. And it's important to let them know that it's NOT OK to treat mommy, daddy or others badly because he or she is angry. Beyond that, holding or not holding, parental presence or not- how am i to know what another person's kid needs?

Also, I think everyone here knows their own child's personality- and wouldn't make their child feel hopless, fearful or desperate on purpose.

Anyway- this is a tough topic. I just mean we should define our terms narrowly, because a lot can be read into three little letters.

Jennifer
(who HATES it when people try to hug her when she's throwing a tantrum)

yes, that is what i mean.

my dd is at this threshhold of leaving baby and becoming toddler...
and i know a lot of moms brag (lol)
but my child is so advanced in her communication skills
she has a working vocab of over 200 words and we have conversations all day about her needs and mine...with me checking for understanding and asking what she thinks, feels, likes...
so her understanding of what was going on....could be more than what meets the eye when you read "14 months..."
and i do think it is important to note the difference in a toddlers's tantrum and a baby's helpless cry....
that is why my situation in particular is so confusing to me... (even still)
i was not sure if she was trying to communicate to me that she was ready to sleep by herself or even put herself to sleep
or if she was throwing a fit due to the addictive cycle of sleeplessness....
i kept on thinking about my mom and i's dynamic (from childhood to this day when i am really emotionaly LOW)
i almost want to suck from my mom every bit of pity and energy and support she is willing to give....
i think they call it wallowing.....LOL
and she will give and give and i will take and take
and the more i take and the more she gives the worse i feel and the more i want comfort
but as soon as we get off the phone (or when i was a child) my mom would just basically have to let me alone to freak out...i guess it would esculate to such....i would be able to calm myself down pretty quickly and get over it.

was that what my toddler was engaging in with me?
i mena part of being a toddler is learning how to manipulate the word around you...and
for us...her world is still pretty much me!

moms of toddlers, i would love some (polite ha.....ha ...ha...) input on this././//
toddler tantrum crying and how you deal
really interested in using gentle dicipline
i just don't know all of what that entails and does not....
some reading to do....sigh....
gone are the days of reading how to co-sleep and why and how to deal with colic
hello tantrums and deciding when your child has outgrown the family bed!
my sister's toddler went throguh a sleep strike and they think she was trying to tell them that she wanted her own sleeping space
it was a rough transition, at first, but she now sleeps great in her own bed,,,,where as she
NEVER slept great in the family bed (this transition happened around 1 yr old)
anybody?


----------



## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srmina*

I am sure I will get majorly flamed for this, but I always wondered if moms who never let their kids cry or cry it out just got really lucky and have easily consolable, well-tempered children. My dd has enough needs that two people taking care of her full time still cannot always satisfy all of them. I think what we should all be thinking about here is INTENT. Is the mom trying her utmost to provide for the child and all of her needs? If so, even if some crying has to happen, I simply cannot fault this mother. But if the mother is INTENTIONALLY allowing the child to cry, that is another story. I think all of us are opposed to this.

No flames from me...
Honestly, compared to what you're going through, I think most of us do have really easy kids...
Your situation sounds like one of the most extreme I've ever heard of...
I think for you, if you're doing your best, you're doing more than enough...
Have you considered the VNS to treat the seizure disorder?








-kelly


----------



## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
yes, that is what i mean.

my dd is at this threshhold of leaving baby and becoming toddler...
and i know a lot of moms brag (lol)
but my child is so advanced in her communication skills
she has a working vocab of over 200 words and we have conversations all day about her needs and mine...with me checking for understanding and asking what she thinks, feels, likes...
so her understanding of what was going on....could be more than what meets the eye when you read "14 months..."
and i do think it is important to note the difference in a toddlers's tantrum and a baby's helpless cry....
that is why my situation in particular is so confusing to me... (even still)
i was not sure if she was trying to communicate to me that she was ready to sleep by herself or even put herself to sleep
or if she was throwing a fit due to the addictive cycle of sleeplessness....
i kept on thinking about my mom and i's dynamic (from childhood to this day when i am really emotionaly LOW)
i almost want to suck from my mom every bit of pity and energy and support she is willing to give....
i think they call it wallowing.....LOL
and she will give and give and i will take and take
and the more i take and the more she gives the worse i feel and the more i want comfort
but as soon as we get off the phone (or when i was a child) my mom would just basically have to let me alone to freak out...i guess it would esculate to such....i would be able to calm myself down pretty quickly and get over it.

was that what my toddler was engaging in with me?
i mena part of being a toddler is learning how to manipulate the word around you...and
for us...her world is still pretty much me!

moms of toddlers, i would love some (polite ha.....ha ...ha...) input on this././//
toddler tantrum crying and how you deal
really interested in using gentle dicipline
i just don't know all of what that entails and does not....
some reading to do....sigh....
gone are the days of reading how to co-sleep and why and how to deal with colic
hello tantrums and deciding when your child has outgrown the family bed!
my sister's toddler went throguh a sleep strike and they think she was trying to tell them that she wanted her own sleeping space
it was a rough transition, at first, but she now sleeps great in her own bed,,,,where as she
NEVER slept great in the family bed (this transition happened around 1 yr old)
anybody?

Here's my experience for what it's worth...

I can't remember the exact age, but my dd transitioned into her own bed on the floor of our room sometime between 1 and 2 (we made the transition more official when she started potty training at 20 mo so as to avoid accidents in our own bed  It was never a big deal or struggle, just a way to give everyone more space and it went fine.

My dd started throwing tantrums at about 1 yo and it was a huge shift in gears for me. Now that dd is 2.5 those early tantrums seem like a walk in the park. DD is a strong willed kid and she loves to see how far she can get with her will and determination, and how much control she has in her world. Over and over. And over.

I think I'm OK on discipline, but I'm still working on it. We have what's worked in the past, and mostly, DD's prett well behaved. But still, whenever she gets into a really cranky stint, I wonder "am I doing this right?"

I think we all do.


----------



## Livi's Mama (Apr 25, 2003)

OK, I'll throw myself into the fire. We just used CIO this week. DD had been sleeping w/me at night full-time since 4 months old. Generally I was OK w/this, since it was what she needed & I usually got sleep. (Also was bf until recently.) We went through many bad streaks where I wanted so badly to use CIO, but I got through. DD was very clingy day & night. Even for naps either DH or I have to hold her in the recliner (still). This meant on my days home, I was getting no break from her. I LOVE snuggling w/her, but I get "touched out" very quickly, always have. I found this situation a real challenge. Now #2 is on the way. I knew there was NO WAY I'd be able to make it through the pregnancy (toward the end w/DD I had to sleep on the sofa, recliner, wherever I could get comfortable.) Most nights her light sleeping & mommy radar wouldn't have allowed me to move freely in bed, let alone get out of bed. And then add a newborn. What if #2 decides day in night & night is day? DH works nights. I couldn't walk the floor w/#2 & expect DD to sleep at all. Many "ifs" of course, but there was no way I was gonna be tackling this all post-delivery. Well Sunday night was a bad night. I hit my brick wall. Monday night the crib went up. DD fell asleep in my arms as usual, then got put in the crib. Cried for me for 20 minutes (yes, of course I cried.) Then slept. (Crib is in our room, I was in bed next to her & she knew it.) One v.v. short cry for me during the night, at which I comforted her, but told her to go to sleep. She did. That morning she was in the best mood. Overall I KNOW she is getting more sleep (not to mention me.) (She has barely cried for me at night since then, but I'm there if she does.) She is happy, our relationship is still strong, and I am more receptive to being close to her during the day since I have freedom at night. Also, DH & I RARELY had time alone together. Can't afford sitters & the occassional afternoon w/DD at in-laws wasn't cutting it.

In general I feel parents need to make sacrifices for there children - no brainer!! But if there is a particular challenge that, day in & day out, makes you a not-as-good mom, or your marriage less than what it needs to be, then the child is not benefitting!!!! And if I'd had to deal w/a non-sleeping toddler while trying to comfort/feed a newborn, would that be fair to the newborn??? Some would call these all excuses. I call them factors.

Anyway, I know this thread isn't all about me







But I wanted to give the details so that if anyone out there can see themselves in this situation, maybe they can gleen a bit of help. I'm not saying "CIO is OK, end of story." I think age, situation, and motive all have to be weighed. Being where we are now, I feel DD's clingy-ness was a want & not a need.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I guess my question would be, what's the point of sharing that in the nighttime parenting forum? It's my understanding that this forum is here to support you in being there for your children at night as well as during the day, which leaving them crying in a crib for 20 minutes isn't doing.

I also think that the way you go about it makes a big difference. If you put her in the crib and left, I'd say no, that's not ok. If you were there next to her to comfort her while she wsa crying, that's a little different.


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Livismama-Thanks for sharing your experience. I think it's important to hear all sides of this. That's what discussions are for, right??


----------



## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

srmina!







, mama.

As a mom of special-needs twins (identical boys with tuberous sclerosis--a neuro disorder resulting in varying degrees of mental delays and seizures), I personally believe each mom or dad needs to evaluate each child and come to a very personal decision of when "crying it out" is appropriate.

My two boys understand very, very little language ("no", "come here", "good job", their names, and that's about it). I've found it VERY VERY important to explain their place in the world by showing them constant love and affection. Co-sleeping and breastfeeding for their first two years was part of this. There comes a time, though, when they reach an age where you feel they're ready to understand limits (like the end of play time, or sleeping alone in a bed). Since there's nothing you can say to explain the change, often crying it out is the only option. Not fear-based, terror-like crying it out, of course, but rather a sort of "crying it out until you realize Mommy's decision is permanent." I _do_ use crying it out to help encourage a new behavior, and if you were in my shoes I would bet the farm you'd be willing to do the same.

I don't know if I've explained it very well. I know you're all wonderful moms, but I find that a lot of parents have a hard time understanding the difficulties of attachment parenting children with special needs (extreme special needs, like ours, or even less extreme forms). When you can't talk with a child, "reason" with a child, it often comes down to basics--smiles, cuddles, kisses (for love and encouragment) and frowns, nos, and crying-it-out (for limits and discouragement).

I also don't want to sound preachy, but from my personal experience, I'd encourage people to take it easy (in terms of the attachment parenting gospel) on parents of special needs children. Sometimes it's so hard to depart from attachment parenting (the way we all dreamed we WOULD parent)...when you're faced with a unique situation where your gut is telling you to do something other than AP, either for your own mental survival or for the best-needs fit for your child, well, there can be a lot of guilt. I know I wanted to be AP, but then again I wanted to have a child that could speak and understand. In the end, I've had to make my own way. I know every mom and dad do this to some extent, but with special needs kids it's especially important to be flexible (and to be tolerant of that flexibility).















to all of you, because I know we're all doing our best.


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

dawn,

thanks. i agree with you, and have done similar.

on a related note: lots of things change when pregnancy #2 happens. the world no longer centers around dc1.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I guess it's just asking to much for people to let this one forum be for those who are not comfortable with CIO, who do not want to read success stories about CIO, and who want sleep solutions that do not involve their child crying to sleep in a crib.

I don't know why anyone would post a CIO success story in this forum, but there must be some satisfaction in doing so, that I cannot understand.

I think leaving your child to scream for 20 minutes in a crib, whether you are plain view or not, would be traumatic.

I am glad alternatives to that exist and I wish people would accept *this* is the forum to talk about what to do instead of leaving a baby to scream in a crib. This is not the place to share how great it worked for you.

Please let us focus on alternatives to CIO, and if you prefer to use CIO or "modified" CIO, please, realize it will only cause friction by posting it here.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

RedOakMama, I am the parent of a special needs child, and I disagree that it is acceptable to use CIO. If anything, I think it is all the more important that you find alternatives.

I do not have twins. However I know there are mama's of twins here, who do not value CIO, and work very, very hard, despite many challenges, to avoid using crying in a crib as a way to force sleep.

The point is not good or bad, although people may have their thoughts on it.

The point is that *THIS* forum is for alternatives. Many people who come here, in fact most, have already been told to CIO by MANY people in their lives, and they do not want one more person telling them "it's really okay, do it if you think it will work". Some part of them feels it is wrong, and they want to find ways to honor that feeling by alternative approaches to sleep.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I have to agree that although I understand the desire and reality of CIO, it is true that it is already too accepted and offered IRL for it to be shown as ok here. We need at least one place on earth where we can go to garner the strength it takes in this modern non-attached world to stay child focused - I chose here, MDC.

So, in light of all these confessions and such, I would like to change CIO to "cruel" and use CC instead. Controlled Crying at least allows you to attend to your child every few minutes. I can't stand the term Crying It Out. Babies left to cry until they sleep. I don't like CC either, but for those mothers who must force their child into some sorta sleep thing at least could attend to their child, stroke them and whisper to them every few minutes. Twenty minutes of crying unattended is not a success story. I feel deeply for struggling mothers, having been one myself once. Don't think I am angry or against you. But please, those nights you think you will harm your baby or yourself if they don't sleep, never use CIO, at most use CC, preferably, have skin contact of some kind during their distress. All they need is to know you are there. Nights are long and lonely and scary for a new person - just let them know you are there with a little more than sitting detach-fully in the same room.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Please take the CIO discussion elsewhere.

Sometimes kids and babes cry. It is the role of an AP/NFLer to help calm and comfort the discomfort in a method that is gentle and promotes compassion.

It has been discussed here before to find the parameter in which the members are comfortable with this discussion and the result is the the rules of this forum

CIO is not allowed to be discussed whatsoever as a method to help your children.

This is probably the only forum where you cannot discuss this as a valid option on the entire internet. Please be considerate of this and take your CIO discussion elsewhere.

Calm~ I do appreciate your effort to move the conversation toward another discription of the issue at hand.

I really don't think that what you described is what the women who are advocating CIO are talking about. What you describe is a loving mom comforting her crying child who happens to be laying down with whispers of love and kindness. You are describing a parent who is in the same room as the crying child, close by, offering love and kindness. This is gentle parenting.

Closing the door and letting the children (developmentally delayed or not) cry themselves to sleep IS CIO and not accepted as valid coversation at MDC. This is A RULE.

Thank you for understanding.


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

oh. i didn't realize we weren't supposed to discuss cio (bad term, imo) here. i read the sticky, but it didn't offer rules. sorry about that. i thought this was ap-minded support for nighttime parenting, but didn't realize that precluded discussion of types of night crying, and how we have tried dealing with it. i do get disappointed when friction happens, and helpful discussion becomes otherwise. i try to stay out of topics that i feel really passionate about so as not to heat things up. then again, i do learn a lot from the heated discussions. so i guess i appreciate them. i don't get upset by them.

guess this should go in "life with babe" ?


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I will always offer help to a mom who is about to try CIO, but I consider that a little different to a mom who has already tried it and is proclaiming success. Eventually, all methods would produce a sleeping baby, cos, well, if for no other reason than eventually a baby will fall asleep. I don't mean to "halt" a discussion, it isn't usually my thing, but this thread was doing so well and maybe changing a lurker's mind, then to find a few posts that say it worked for them may swing them back, you know? so, no disrespect intended, just sticking by the thoughts presented that CIO is not very compassionate and yeah, if there is another place even on MDC that talks of it as an option, fine.

Gentle, folks, the future is in our baby's cry.


----------



## mother_sunshine (Nov 25, 2001)

I just wanted to put my vote in here as another MDC member who is not comfortable with a debate over CIO. This is the _Family Bed and Nighttime Parenting_ forum, it is not a debate forum. Although debate is healthy, it has it's place and this is not the place. I want to protect MDC as the only online community where CIO is not even in our vocabulary, regardless of the definition.

FYI:

From the MDC User Agreement:
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html

Quote:

MDC serves an online community of parents and parents-to-be considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information and Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.
From the MDC Web Statement of Purpose:
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/web_sta...ofpurpose.html

Quote:

Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters awareness of the immense importance and value of family life in the development of the full human potential of parents and children. At Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.
Mothering advocates natural family living, including the ancient way of being with babies and children that is known today as attachment parenting. This way is reliant on the inherent integrity of children and the inviolate intuition of parents. The family is the dominion of parents and children and authoritative knowledge rests with them. This website is a place to safely explore all the aspects involved in such a parenting philosophy.


----------



## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mother_sunshine*
just wanted to put my vote in here as another MDC member who is not comfortable with a debate over CIO. This is the Family Bed and Nighttime Parenting forum, it is not a debate forum. Although debate is healthy, it has it's place and this is not the place. I want to protect MDC as the only online community where CIO is not even in our vocabulary, regardless of the definition.

FYI:

From the MDC User Agreement:
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html
.

I have to agree, I was happy to see that MJ did feel bad for her actions and talked with her sweet DD about it and put away the crib and the threats- however, I do not in any way think that CIO is ever a okay thing- as I am sure people read from my first post







I do think that a debate on CIO is not in good terms of a place like MDC- and I am glad that MJ wanted clarification on crying and parenting. Crying is normal and natural- heck, I cired all day on Wed.... But I have to agree that this is not the place to ask for support for CIO.


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Did I miss the point of the OP? I thought she was coming here to ask our opinions on whether or not CIO was okay for any reason. Where would one post this question if not in the nighttime parenting forum?

I'm not necessarily equating the two, but if for some odd reason a parent thought it okay to spank a child b/c they weren't sleeping and wanted to know alternatives, wouldn't they come the the Nighttime Parenting forum?


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't talking about the OP.


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Mountain-I just re-read your post and I really had know idea that a discussion of CIO was not _allowed_ anymore. Geesh. For some reason, I am kinda shocked by this. But I also just had a baby less than three months ago so my brain is shot...

I just don't understand why the discussion isn't allowed. I'm really trying to figure this out. There are discussions on spanking in the discipline forum. Help for long-term spankers, etc., to help them find an alternative...


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Thanks, Calm...just trying to wrap my sleep-deprived brain around this debate (or non-debate).


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

And yes, I will read the rules to help clear up my confusion. Wait-this thread isn't about me, is it???









I've been known to monopolize...


----------



## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*
I just don't understand why the discussion isn't allowed. I'm really trying to figure this out. There are discussions on spanking in the discipline forum. Help for long-term spankers, etc., to help them find an alternative...









Bearsmama, I think it is more the stories of how CIO worked for people. We are not here to support such actions and in doing that we can not not talk about why CIO worked, how it worked or why someone would use/support it. MDC is about kindness and respect for all members of a family and CIO does not fit into that mindset. I think it would be fine if a mother came here and said- "We use CIO, and I hate it, I feel so bad, what else can I do- I DONT WANT TO DO THIS" then the talk of CIO and the different ways to work around this can be talked about.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crayon*
Bearsmama, I think it is more the stories of how CIO worked for people. We are not here to support such actions and in doing that we can not not talk about why CIO worked, how it worked or why someone would use/support it. MDC is about kindness and respect for all members of a family and CIO does not fit into that mindset. I think it would be fine if a mother came here and said- "We use CIO, and I hate it, I feel so bad, what else can I do- I DONT WANT TO DO THIS" then the talk of CIO and the different ways to work around this can be talked about.

YUP, thats what I meant by my post. My complaint is not about the mothers that come here for guidance and help because they used CIO and are sick with guilt for doing so, knowing they resorted to a parenting skill that is not an Ap skill.

It is the parents that come into the forum, trying to offer examples of how CIO worked for them or that their children are now sleeping better because of it.

Advocating or offering stories of success with cio are not welcome or allowed.

But one is not hard pressed to find a forum that accepts and advocates this discussion.

It is pretty black and white. If one has issue with not being able to discuss CIO as a viable option then its kinda too bad for you.

Again, just so we are all on the same page here, I don't have issue with parents coming onto the forum for help and guidance after discovering that CIO just SUCKS as a parenting tool.

Sorry but CIO makes me







uke


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

bearsmama no one says in the gd forum that spanking works for them. There are questions and sometimes confessions about spanking, but always in the context of finding alternatives. Offhand I can't think of threads that devolve into arguments over "modified spanking" being more acceptable than "full blown" spanking. I guess I wish that clarity could be reached in this forum.

I realize the hot button is the fact that babies do cry, and the need for sleep can make people feel impatient and desperate. Additionally, the invaluable advice to walk away if you feel your temper escalating towards a crying baby, must be kept separate from the intentional use of walking away to induce sleep. They are *different* issues.

If the OP is only seeking alternatives to CIO, I encourage her to keep asking questions here. The sticky at the top of the forum has some great articles too.

As to the issue of babies and crying, I would strongly recommend some Aletha Solter articles for you to read (also in the sticky).

There were other posts in this thread that clearly stated crying in a crib was an effective sleep tool for a child, and I think that kind of response takes the discussion away from finding alternatives to CIO, which is the purpose of this forum.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
There were other posts in this thread that clearly stated crying in a crib was an effective sleep tool for a child, and I think that kind of response takes the discussion away from finding alternatives to CIO, which is the purpose of this forum.

Ita


----------



## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Heya. I'm just gonna ignore any "heated argument" vibes and try to clarify something. I think most of the people here, even the ones (like me) who claim to use crying it out in some shape or form, are really using what a previous person described as controlled crying. Would we let our child spend twenty minutes crying, terrified, in a crib in some sort of effort to get them to sleep? Of course not. Not only will it traumatize the child, but what kid would want to sleep in a bed where they spent 20 terrifying minutes? A bed needs to be a safe, welcoming place.

On the other hand, do we know when our children (and I mean _children_, not babies) are crying because they don't _want_ something? Yes. Or at least I think I know my kids that well. When we moved Ian and James from our family bed to beds of their own (a gradual process) there were some nights when we heard several minutes of "I don't WANT this" crying. It's the kind of crying I call stubborn crying (if they could speak, I would imagine they would say "but I don't WANT to go to bed this early!", or "but I WANT to sit in the swing for an hour!") Do children always get what they want? No. Do we always give them what they need? Of course. When even a hint of fear or despair entered into the crying/whining, did we go and offer comfort? Of course.

When I say I use "crying it out" as a method of behavior control, please realize that I'm not using it on babies (my kids are almost 3), and that I'm finding as my children age, their special needs dictate that when they want something they can't have (staying up late, or staying in our bed), "no" can't be more than a literal "no" and then an action. I can't explain "why" to them. They simply don't understand language. They do understand when I've set a limit (after the bedtime routine, they go to their beds). When they protest that limit (and they rarely do, because I think my husband and I did a *great* job at the bed transition), I expect to hear a little fussy/pouty crying. I tolerate that crying, and I consider that to be this sort of "controlled crying" someone described. I do it. I feel it's okay.

As a new mom, confronted with the end of two years of co-sleeping, I remember feeling terrified of how people would judge me for tolerating _any_ form of controlled crying. My own behavior for two years, and the kind of parenting I'd always planned to practice, had DRILLED "crying---bad" into my head. What I found (and I'm sure this is different in every child) is that there are different types of crying. My protective mama-bear insincts didn't feel that letting them cry their stubborn cries for a little while before bed was a bad thing. I felt some external guilt because I was seemingly going against the AP doctrine, but my instinct was that my kids were old enough to start learning cooperation and change (they were two). Though we can't discuss it with Ian and James, I know they've never felt fear while crying. They've felt anger, maybe, because Mommy and Daddy stopped doing 100% of what they _wanted_, but they've never felt fear, or abandonment, or anything less than 100% of their _needs_ being met.

Do moms, at the end of their co-sleeping wits, need to be able to come here and ask about crying it out? Yeah, they do. Because for them, they might still have that "crying=bad" in their head. Now, maybe I'm way off the mark here, but as mothers of toddlers I think most of us know there are different types of crying (wants vs. needs, sadness vs. temper tantrums). But if you remember back to when those toddlers were babies, and crying was always bad, it's kind of traumatic for moms to have that brain shift from "crying=bad" to "well, maybe crying can mean all sorts of different things" When that brainshift happens, and they're feeling guilty for not being perfect AP moms, they need to come here and ask if CIO is ever okay.

I know my membership says I'm new, but this is actually my second username (I used to be Elisabeth, back in 01-02), and I've spent many a happy year learning here at the mothering boards. I would hope there isn't anything that's truly _not allowed_ for discussion. Just because CIO is treated as a sort of evil in the view of attachment parenting doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. On the other hand, I think anything we automatically view as bad _should_ be thoroughly discussed and thought through. Whether or not it belongs in this forum, I don't know. That's the moderator's call, for sure.

Anyway. I'm glad someone used the phrase controlled crying. I hope I didn't distort the meaning you intended. I didn't mean to offend anyone for using the term "crying it out." I had no idea it was so offensive to some. It's the term we use around our house, but in our practice it's not loaded with all the negativity that the phrase seems to imply. From now on I'll happily use the term controlled crying, because I think it's a great way to educate. New moms shouldn't be held prisoner to the idea that some crying means that they've failed as a loving parent.

Edited for two things:

"crying=bad" is my way of describing my gut response. When my babies cried, I knew something was wrong/bad, and that I needed to help them/comfort them. Crying, as an action, is of course never bad. It's communication.

I should mention that I haven't been a regular visitor to the Nighttime Parenting forum, and apologize again for using the phrase "crying it out" without realizing the impact it has around here. Had I done a little research before posting, I would have found some other way to describe the practice we use at our house. Though my husband and I call it "crying it out," I feel sure that it's not the awful "CIO" described in this forum.

Please be nice to me, ladies. I'm a good mom, and I don't like to be jumped on. No one (come and live with me!) would look at my parenting and think the negative thoughts I feel seething through these posts.

Whoo! End of gargantuan post.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

RedOakMama

"Crying is bad" is never a good attitude, even for an infant. This is why so many people recommend reading Aletha Solter on this topic. Some babies need to discharge with crying, and she helps parents honor that need in a way that promotes bonding and security.

If you aren't responding to a cry, it is a manipulation that leaves the child powerless. Deciding whether or not a child "needs" a response is the kind of "You aren't really a person the way I am a person" assumption that feels disrespectful for many people within ap. Crying for a response is not the same as crying for a cookie. And even if my toddler were crying for a cookie, I wouldn't consider ignoring the request altogether the best way to react. I would still respond with an explaination, and distraction if necessary.

I also have the impression you don't compare "a 4 month old crying" for attention, to a "big old toddler" crying for attention. I think this is where you are making an assumption others here don't. My son is 8. I don't think people ever reach an age where we can decide they no longer have the right to expect a response from those around them. As children get older, they can learn how to compromise, and understand others needs. But if your child is crying in their crib, they do not get it yet! They need a response from you!

And I think you misunderstood what Calm described as "controlled crying". I think she was describing a coping technique for a crisis situation. I don't think she was saying "Here is a great way to get kids to sleep". And secondly, she encourages skin to skin contact. If you are laying on the bed beside your screaming baby, both of you exhausted, I don't think anyone would call that a form of "CIO". If that's the best you can do on the worst nights, I'd say that's doing a pretty good job.

RedOakMama what you described was a consistent approach, not a crisis night, and I think it was a form of CIO, where a delayed response to crying was used to facilitate sleep.

If it worked for you, there is SO MUCH support for it everywhere.

Why justify this here, when people are looking for alternatives to CIO, not encouragement?

edited for typos


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Thank you all for clarifying. I "get it" now. And just as a point of clarification, I am very anti-cio. I agree with Mountain: CIO makes me feel sick, too!


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I am fairly AP. Compared to mainstreamers I'm very AP. Compared to MDC mamas I'm moderate AP.

I have four kids. These are the standards I have about CIO. (I have severe insomnia and the babies except for the colic one coslept for 8-10 months and then were in a crib).

Time limits for CIO:

hysterical I'm dying crying: never. get them right away
unhappy I don't want to be here crying: 5 minutes
grumbly sleepy crying: 15-20 minutes
grumbly: 30 minutes
awake/ talking but not crying: 45 minutes

I have found that with some of my older babies, they will not fall asleep unless alone. Even after they are used to co sleeping.


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
RedOakMama

"Crying is bad" is never a good attitude, even for an infant. This is why so many people recommend reading Aletha Solter on this topic. Some babies need to discharge with crying, and she helps parents honor that need in a way that promotes bonding and security.

redoakmama, this is a bit off topic but your use of the word discharge makes me ask if you are/ were part of the cocounseling community? (Harvey Jakins et al?)


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

That's right, Heartmama. It is a coping technique in "end of rope" situations. I firmly believe that some parents are at their peak, and I have seen what they can do to themselves and their family if they don't have some kind of option other than walking and rocking the baby. In some instances, it simply isn't healthy, and I won't trouble people with saying why.

It is a short term solution. Some have gotten sleep results with CC, but that is not its goal. Its goal is to give relief (the ability to walk away momentarily), and an opportunity to re-group all the while attending to your child at intervals - so they don't feel abandoned. It is important to only use it if you are in a very bad situation, and for one off nights. It is a short step from CIO, so not a parenting goal, that's for sure. The reality is, somewhere right now, there is a mother with a screaming infant in her arms, riddled with guilt at the thought of putting her child down, at the same time a stressed time-bomb about to go off. Walking away and leaving the child ain't great, and neither is staying the course (trust me, seen it, wouldn't want to see it again). Putting the baby down for a few minutes, laying down with them and rolling over to cry now and again, rolling back to stroke the baby, rolling away for a few minutes, rolling back to breathe your breath on their cheek....etc etc. This has saved lives. Period. But so has jumping out a window when a house in on fire. When the house ain't on fire, use the freakin' door. Know what I'm sayin'?


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I am not at all advocating CIO at all. But is it really CIO to put the baby down and step away for a moment because you feel that you have to and there is no one else there to take the baby? I guess to me it seems the 'it' for the CIO is lacking in that situation. I did try CIO when my DD was young. My parents did it and I read the books that said it was fine and I believed them. Fortunately I didn't do this very long and being around AP parents helped me realize there was a better way to handle this situation. I could babble about how I didn't let her cry hard but only to a certain degree blah blah blah but at the end of the day I used to practice CIO. It was not the right choice and fortunately I realized that and changed my ways. My second baby will not ever be CIO.

However I would contrast that behavior when I put her in her crib and let her cry because I felt she needed to cry it out to get to sleep and the times I put her down for a moment and left the room because I couldn't take it any more. In the latter case I didn't expect her to quiet down. I didn't leave the room with that intent. My intent was only to regain control of myself. I hope I won't have that feeling of desparation with my new baby but it's possible that I may (perhaps even more possible with my very spirited toddler along for the ride). I can't say that I won't ever step away from my baby to take a few deep breaths. Is that really the same thing as putting her in a crib and shutting the door and not going back in no matter what? I guess I don't see that and I worry that telling women not to ever feel they can put their baby down if they feel that they need to and telling them they should feel guilty for doing so could lead to abuse.


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

heartmama,

thank you for your thoughtful replies and clarifications. although i don't currently agree with you 100%, i am learning a lot by what you have written, and i am giving it much thought and consideration.

that's why i appreciate these discussions so much (vs debate).


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

wasabi I posted this in my last post:

Quote:

I realize the hot button is the fact that babies do cry, and the need for sleep can make people feel impatient and desperate. Additionally, the invaluable advice to walk away if you feel your temper escalating towards a crying baby, must be kept separate from the intentional use of walking away to induce sleep. They are *different* issues.

Walking away because *you* are losing control is a distinct and separate issue. It is a way to protect your baby in a crisis situation. It is not part of your sleep routine. I hate to see this thread drown under the confusion over these two issues. If you are losing control, walk away. When you calm down, pick up that baby, and come read in this forum, so you don't feel at the end of your rope tomorrow night.

Does that clarify?

Calm wrote:

Quote:

This has saved lives. Period. But so has jumping out a window when a house in on fire. When the house ain't on fire, use the freakin' door. Know what I'm sayin'?
OMG I broke down laughing out loud at this. I needed it! You have a great sense of humor!

Meowee wrote:

Quote:

Time limits for CIO:

hysterical I'm dying crying: never. get them right away
unhappy I don't want to be here crying: 5 minutes
grumbly sleepy crying: 15-20 minutes
grumbly: 30 minutes
awake/ talking but not crying: 45 minutes

*sighing* Why oh why did you just post a guide to CIO?!

For Francy...(((Many hugs))) if something here helped you I am really glad.


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Thank you for that clarification. I must have missed that in catching up on the all the pages since I last read the thread. It does seem though that many in the thread do not consider that to be a distinction. One person suggested that you could even give your baby to the mailman instead of leaving it alone for even a brief moment. Well I was in an apartment. No one else was home and my mailman doesn't come to my apartment. And I don't know that my DD would have had much of a preference in having a stranger hold her over being alone. If she wanted me she wanted me not the mailman. It just seemed some of the responses were of the ilk that no matter what you just needed to suck it up and hold that baby and from my POV that's not a helpful attitude.

ETA I do very much agree they are two separate issues. That was the point I was making. It seems that several people have conflated any time your baby is crying and not in your arms with CIO whether that's putting her baby down to go to the bathroom, rinsing the shampoo out of your hair, or stepping away to collect yourself.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*

Time limits for CIO:

hysterical I'm dying crying: never. get them right away
unhappy I don't want to be here crying: 5 minutes
grumbly sleepy crying: 15-20 minutes
grumbly: 30 minutes
awake/ talking but not crying: 45 minutes

I have found that with some of my older babies, they will not fall asleep unless alone. Even after they are used to co sleeping.

This is exactly what I have been trying to convey on this thread. This type of post is not welcome.

MDC does not support CIO and this post not only supports CIO is actually gives a framework on how to do it.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
That's right, Heartmama. It is a coping technique in "end of rope" situations. I firmly believe that some parents are at their peak, and I have seen what they can do to themselves and their family if they don't have some kind of option other than walking and rocking the baby. In some instances, it simply isn't healthy, and I won't trouble people with saying why.

It is a short term solution. Some have gotten sleep results with CC, but that is not its goal. Its goal is to give relief (the ability to walk away momentarily), and an opportunity to re-group all the while attending to your child at intervals - so they don't feel abandoned. It is important to only use it if you are in a very bad situation, and for one off nights. It is a short step from CIO, so not a parenting goal, that's for sure. The reality is, somewhere right now, there is a mother with a screaming infant in her arms, riddled with guilt at the thought of putting her child down, at the same time a stressed time-bomb about to go off. Walking away and leaving the child ain't great, and neither is staying the course (trust me, seen it, wouldn't want to see it again). Putting the baby down for a few minutes, laying down with them and rolling over to cry now and again, rolling back to stroke the baby, rolling away for a few minutes, rolling back to breathe your breath on their cheek....etc etc. This has saved lives. Period. But so has jumping out a window when a house in on fire. When the house ain't on fire, use the freakin' door. Know what I'm sayin'?

I really like your voice on this Calm.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
It seems that several people have conflated any time your baby is crying and not in your arms with CIO whether that's putting her baby down to go to the bathroom, rinsing the shampoo out of your hair, or stepping away to collect yourself.

I would hope that us as parents and as women would really all get this!

CIO is a direct act of ignoring! See the CIO chart in the previous post for emphasis on this.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Boy, what a complex issue. Long long ago







when I was a really naive new Mom, I thought we were supposed to do this. Dh assured me he was tough enough and sent me into the basement. 5 minutes later he came running downstairs w/ds, both of them in tears.

Ain't tried it since in almost 4 years.

I believe in my heart it is wrong.

I do have a good friend w/a super high needs child and I understand, though, that sometimes she has to walk away in order to perserve her own physical sanity. But, then again, her child was raised in a different environment from mine.

eta: I don't have a definition of CIO, but my kids have never cried out of my arms. I believe that because they never had to cry as an infant, they learned how better to cope w/situations.


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

wasabi, I think if you clearly described the situation as "the mother is about to lose control and might hurt her child if she doesn't step outside for a couple of minutes", that you would get almost complete agreement here on that.

There *are* shades of grey, and it can be hard to discuss it. I am NOT thinking of a post here in this thread when I say:

I have seen posts where a mother will say "I need 9 hours of uninterrupted sleep. I go crazy if I don't get this. My baby has to learn to sleep through the night alone".

How do you tell someone that they probably won't go crazy if they don't get 9 hours of isolated sleep, and that expecting their baby to go that long without a response is unfair, unrealistic, and that the parent is the one who needs to change?

There are MANY people who use CIO for a reason like the above. A huge part of nighttime parenting is making a paradigm shift to realizing "hey, it's okay if my baby needs me at night. I can feel good about responding to them, and it makes the waking less stressful, knowing I can be there for my baby".

It is very hard to respond without someone saying "Didn't you read that this woman might go crazy without a full night of sleep? How is that not more important to her child, to have a sane mother, than to have to cry it out?"

Sometimes the paradigm shift can be so different, people just have to agree to let a place like this be a "no CIO zone" so that the alternatives can be discussed without it devolving into endless debate.

This is why there is no debate over spanking in the gd forum. When someone says "How is it better for a child to get hit by a car than get a spanking so they learn not to go near the road?!?", it causes endless debate over paradigm shifts in viewpoint, that distract from the purpose of the forum.

People SHOULD walk away in a crisis moment. I think everyone agree's on that. But they also need to ask for help, and work on new idea's and beliefs, so that endless frustration does not become the routine.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

How do you tell someone that they probably won't go crazy if they don't get 9 hours of isolated sleep
Sorry, but bwahahahahaha







: And, I repeat bwahahahaahah


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy*
Sorry, but bwahahahahaha







: And, I repeat bwahahahaahah

Yeah seriously. I feel fortunate that the gods smiled on me and DD nightweaned herself a week or so after she started sleeping on her own mattress on the floor of our room. I hadn't had this much sleep in three years! :LOL It has been a wonderful blessing.

As for the other issue I wasn't speaking towards any other threads since I haven't really seen this come up before. I only meant some of the posts in this thread seemed to lack sympathy/empathy for someone putting their child down while crying for any reason. I'm glad to see that many don't equate that with CIO and I by no means was trying to debate the merits of CIO.


----------



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

wow
thanks for the advice and discussion
even the imput that was not directed at me, has given me greater insight into (if nothering else) how to successfully use this particular forum as a parenting information tool
which is my essential goal

i feel like i sould actually apologize for all of my original posts
"we cIO and it so worked"
"my response" and
"is CIO ever ok"

i just did not have ANY clue that they would hurt, offend, or freak any one out
call me clueless
i just did not realize they would

i love and respect all of the MDC comunity and its mission
i do not want to disrespect any of that on any level

the truth is, i am at the begining of forming my parenting practice
i have almost no real life support on the physical or emotional plane
and i was off on the definitions and jargan of AP and GD
and (although VERY HARD for me to admit) i can NOW see i made mistakes in my parenting that to a debatable degree hurt my child (how much...is like i said debateable)
i am sorry for all of that

that being said, in my own hysterical sleep deprived clueless way, i DID come her for help
PERIOD
and for the mommas who put their priorities of keeping the purity of langauge and intent of this forum OVER the priority of overcoming your instinct of anger and accusation and truly reaching out in a loving way to a mom who was obviously struggling.....well let me just say that it STILL hurts.
i truly did not know what all of this (AP GD etc...stuff) was about and even defined as. and if i weren't and strong in my own person and humble anough to admit fault after FLAMES.
lets just say i STILL Might be sleepless and my daughter could being REALLY CIOing it out tonight
i was teetering on the edge of being able to cope and NOT.

WE NEED TO HELP MOTHERS HERE FIRST
then judge and define rules and norms in a matter of fact way
PERIOD
and many of "you" did not do that for me.

and I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad that i came back any way and read and asked more
because let me tell you
I AM LEARNING and my BABY IS BENIFITING FORM THE LEARNING
so is my marriage
infact

this entire experience has urged me to embark on a majo rspiritual and emoitonal journey of my mothering....and with in my own personal soul

am truly growing as a person from what i am learning here.

for that i thank you all

i am so commited to being the most loving respectful mom i can be

but i BEG you all
please be gentle with the crazy ignorant sleep deprived unknowing mommas who come here.

e


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)




----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

I am all for being gentle and supportive and non-judgmental, I really am.

But sometimes all you have to do is say "CIO is not an acceptable parenting technique..."
or "We don't advocate CIO here..."
and you get accused of flaming.

I am sorry, but it is important to those of us who practice GD in a world that is hostile to it, to have safe space to share.
This is a COMMUNITY. It is for the good of us ALL to keep that safe space.

So it isn't just about obsession with the purity of language.. or putting rules and semantics ahead of someone's pain.

It is about preserving the intent of this community for ALL OF US.

People are responsible for their OWN FEELINGS.
You can choose to understand why people are passionate about defending the values of this community.. or you can CHOOSE to take it personally.
That is, of course, barring outright flaming, name-calling and personal attacks, which are BANNED here.

I am one who has posted again and again calling for tolerance here.
But I am getting really really tired of being attacked for caring about the values and principles of this community.

I would think that those who value this place and what it has to offer would also care about preserving its mission, so that others can benefit from its uniqueness as well.

MDC does NOT advocate CIO. It is not a place for people to come advocate CIO.

How is it flaming or attacking to point that out?

I have never said anyone was a bad person or a bad mother. I have not seen anyone else say that either.

I have always offered suggestions and alternatives.
So does almost everyone else here.

I have posted some of my own struggles.. and gotten advice and support.. as well as reminders of what MDC is about.

I don't understand the constant fingerpointing at this community simply for wanting to uphold its stated values.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Thank you for your prespective Asherah, I appreciate you.


----------



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

oh ahserah, if you did not say anything that was an actual personal insult
then that was NOT directed to you
some people did....AND mentioned the same feelings you described above...
i am just asking that people be matter of fact about the rules of this forum when a new person comes and is out of line...

and to refrain from persoanl attack

i was told that i was disgusting and
in a sarcastic tone, to go tell my pititful little story somewhere else...(and other insults and attacks)
when i did not even really know the community deffinition of cryig it out OR what your community excepted guidelines were for discussion.

that is all i meant

i just wanted to clarify the original intent of this thread...
i don't need any more "answers" because i would not have used practically any of the same wording, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW.

ok?
please lets stop this now...i don't think there is anything more for anyone to learn from that line of discussion.


----------



## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

asherah-Nice words


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

wasabi, I think some posts happen in grey area's that make for differing responses, kwim? Some people are going to see it as a safety issue, others won't, it depends on the information given, kwim?

Asherah, thank you, that was a wonderful post.

Momajustice I can understand your hurt at personal attacks. I also think it's great that you are learning why your language might have led to some misunderstandings here. People do want to help moms learn alternatives to CIO.


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
This is exactly what I have been trying to convey on this thread. This type of post is not welcome.

MDC does not support CIO and this post not only supports CIO is actually gives a framework on how to do it.

NAK

the OP asked if there is ever a siuation where one lets babe CIO. I suffer from severe insomnia. It is important to listen to your baby. Different sounds mean different things. honestly compared to people who really let their babes cio it out, I don't. if babe wakes during the night, I get her immediately even if not crying. it is just the naps and initial putting down I do the list I wrote.

I believe in a family bed but I have an extraordinary situation like op asked of. I have suffered from severe insomnia my whole life. It was/ is so severe I wondered if I should have dc at all.

so I have put together a patchwork. I get as close to family bed and no cio as I can. babe in bed with me for up to ten months, then crib w on demand nursing through night. When out of a crib they co sleep with DH.

as far as whether this discussion should even be allowed on family bed, I believe it should. some of us want a family bed and no CIO but like many AP ideals it is not attainable for some of us. For those of us who can't do it to the ideal, I think we have to create a patchwork getting as close as possible. To do that you have to be realistic about your needs and DCs needs. Not every grumble, cry, and coo from a babe means the same thing.

for instance DS was colicky. There was no in between with him. It was always the hysterical I'm dying cry. So we never even tried to put him in a crib. But with future babes some would fall asleep in their crib with fifteen minutes of grumbling. Not even crying. So is that CIO? Not in my opinion. Some would fall asleep with thirty seconds of crying. Is that CIO?

There's a huge difference between what I wrote and what mainstream ppl do. Just throw the kid in the crib and close the door no matter what happens. I would never do that.

you have to view this less rigidly. The mamas have needs and issues too. I for one and very grateful to see this discussion.


----------



## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I have refrained from posting in the three CIO threads started by Moma Justice for various reasons. The first and foremost being that I wasn't sure I could do so without hurting someone's feelings. I literally cried when I read the first post. It affected me that much. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have that reaction.

I think Asherah has summed up exactly what needed to be said. I don't think anybody flamed anyone (if you think I am wrong, that's cool, just pm me about it). I am so sorry some people felt the OP was being attacked, and took it upon themselves to attack those they thought were doing the attacking. The closed threads are still here in this forum, I didn't make them go away, but I did have to remove some of the posts which were in direct violation of the MDC User Agreement. Click that link. Those are the rules, plain and simple. If anyone sees a post in this forum that you feel breaks any of those rules, report it or pm me with the link! It's that easy. What you shouldn't do is to reply and take matters into your own hands. That is when threads get closed or outright removed from the boards.

Any post here which puts CIO in a positive light will get many very passionate responses. You can't expect it not to. This is MDC, and CIO is not something members here agree with or advocate. In fact, most of us are very much against CIO and feel physical pain just reading stories about it.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Asherah, thank you for speaking from your heart.


----------



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


----------



## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
i was told that i was disgusting and
in a sarcastic tone, to go tell my pititful little story somewhere else...(and other insults and attacks)

i would not have used practically any of the same wording, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW.

MJ, I know what I said you took personal and they could have hurt you- my intent was to get to the point, and if I get mad, I tend to be very blunt. However, like you said "i would not have used practically any of the same wording, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW." and in turn I very well would have not responded the same way I did if the wording had been different. It was not a personal insult or attack, there has been many times in the last 6 months on this board we have been in huge debates about how to keep this board a pure AP/NFL style board, and speaking out when we see danger or wrong is a way we can do that. Harshness was not my intent, simply to say if this is what you think is "ok" then please go someplace else. I also must say that my OP is still there and the mods have read it, I dont think I stepped over the line. But I do see that you are learning and working as a mother, as we all are- and learning takes time and education and I am very happy you are looking for more education in this respect. I have a 1 1/2 year old too, I am a learning mama, it is part of parenting and I think even when they are 30 we will still be learning!

Asherah, I thank you very much for your post, and I totally agree with you 100%









riotkrrn- there is a sticky at the top of the forum all about CIO and I think it speaks very clearly about the rules and ideals of MDC and it community about CIO, http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=179657 However, I do think that most people never read any rules.... And I dont know how to fix that


----------



## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


----------



## crayon (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
I've seen the sticky and I agree that it's very helpful and contains a number of helpful resources. It seems, though, to assume that the reader knows exactly what is meant by CIO and goes from there in explaining why it's a bad idea and what some alternatives are. Based on the responses I've seen in this thread, there seems to be confusion as to what CIO actually is - Ferberization? Controlled crying? Crying while a parent is in the room? Crying in the car? And so on. My thought was that, perhaps as an addition to the resources on the sticky, someone could add a blurb about what CIO is, and some scenarios (that involve crying and sleep) that aren't.

Perhaps you are right, Maybe a mod can put up a sitcky with the guide lines that MDC feels is CIO and the terms in which it is okay to talk about it here. I think that may be the only way that MDC could get control of the topic, however I do think the mods have done a great job dealing with the threads and the topic at hand. It would be nice for new and even old members to have a stick to reference for help and questions and answers.

ETA: I didnt mean that the mods think it is okay to talk about CIO here, but I ment the terms on what CIO are and why it is not a valid subject to support in this forum, and other options for parenting that are OK.--- Sometimes when i type it doesnt come out the way I think it!


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
you have to view this less rigidly. The mamas have needs and issues too. I for one and very grateful to see this discussion.

I truely appreciate the position you are in Meowee. I do not have issue with you specifically nor do I need you to further support your reasons for using CIO. That is intirely your choice, one that you seem to feel okay about.

I do not need to see this less rigidly. CIO discussion as a method of positive parenting, simply is not allowed.

If it works for you, excellent, why do you feel the need to advocate in a forum that does not want you to.

I, again, for the record, will qualify what I feel is CIO and what I feel is not.

1) You allow your child/infant to continue to cry, hoping it brings them sleep, knowing if you picked them up they would more than likely quiet, CIO.

2) Babe/Child is crying and....Dinner is burning, door is knocking, phone is ringing, bathroom toilet is flooding, you may loose it and do something you regret so you don't pick the babe up until you have control of the out of control sitaution....NOT CIO.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Yeah, I feel it speaks for itself too. Crying It Out has no end - cry until it sorts itself out type thing.


----------



## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*

If it works for you, excellent, why do you feel the need to advocate in a forum that does not want you to.


Not advocating it. If you can no CIO and cosleep, you should. Period. But the OP was asking about extraordinary circumstances. That is something I feel I can relate to...

We are living in a culture where people have forgotten that babes are human being, and APers are remembering that now. But we seem to be forgetting that the mamas are human beings too! JMO


----------



## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Not that it even needs to be said considering I'm certainly not the only person on here who feels this way...but...for the sake of...I dunno saking...Crying It Out (to me) is self explanatory. In my particular experience, because I certainly can't speak for every case, my daughter (now 15 months old) has never cried it out. Has she cried while I was doing something like putting the clothes in the dryer or cleaning up cat puke or putting something in the oven....well..yeah. But she has never EVER cried alone. She's never been forced to stay BY HERSELF desperate for comfort because I just couldn't "deal" or because I was trying to teach her a lesson.

I'm sorry, but our babies are only literal babies for a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things...and I fully understand that there are extinuating circumstances...but for those of us that are running at top speed my question to you is this..."Why in the world would you deny your baby the comfort and love that he/she so richly deserves?"

Have I ever felt at the end of my rope after a particularly trying day with Willow? Hell yes. Have I ever felt that I simply could not handle another whimper from her darling little soul...Absolutely. But I'm a mother. And in becoming a mother, IMO, I put someone else's life ahead of mine. Willow is MY responsibility. And I can't bring myself to put her needs on the back burner when there is no reason for them to be there.

OMG...am I just rambling now. lol Sorry. Anyway...We are all individuals..and ultimately will make our individual choices...but in this house....CIO is not an option.

Hope I didn't offend anyone..I wasn't setting out to.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
But we seem to be forgetting that the mamas are human beings too!

ITA, the health of the Mother is reflected by the health of her family forsure!

I get where you are coming from. I appreciate your dialouge with this and I think I understand you and vice versa.

It is good for Mothers to ask for help and guidance and its good for Mothers to offer it.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Well said!

And,








Quote:

but our babies are only literal babies for a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Moma Justice..
Please believe me when I say I have NOTHING but empathy for you.
I understand what it is like to be desperate and searching.. and I also understand what it is like to be at the center of an online firestorm.

I wish you all good things.


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *willowsmom*
And in becoming a mother, IMO, I put someone else's life ahead of mine. Willow is MY responsibility. And I can't bring myself to put her needs on the back burner when there is no reason for them to be there.

well said. i agree, and i try to do this. every now and then, i choose myself over my child, and i feel conflicted about it. sometimes i feel as you described. other times i think, "i have needs too, and it just isn't realistic to always, always put his needs first. and even if it were, am i causing terrible psychological damage by doing so?" (btw: i definitely don't think i am. kids are incredibly resilient, and we have a very loving home in general. the "damage" issue is, of course, something many of us will disagree about.)

let me tell y'all how this thread has helped me!

i do occasional cio at nap or bedtime when i desperately need the baby to sleep so i can be someplace else, doing something else (usually involving my older son--the world can't revolve around the baby when ds1 needs me too). when i do this cio, i fully recognize that i am not putting baby's needs first. i'm putting mine (or my older son's first). i'm not at my "ap best." there might be a way i can do better. but i'm not. and i say to the baby, "i'm sorry that i'm not helping you now. but i have to do something else. i'm sorry that you are sad. but...you have to be sad right now." i acknowlege this. it's the ole "life aint fair" way of doing things that i usually try to avoid.

whew! that said, let me tell you about yesterday:

baby hadn't napped. toddler was desperate for one-on-one. i was beat. i had had it with kids whining/crying at me. i wasn't losing it by any means. i wasn't desperate. i was in control. this was classic cio. not much gray area.

so, i put the baby in bed with my "i'm sorry you have to be sad right now" speech, and i left. i planned to do some errands with toddler while ds was working at home. baby cried. i thought about his sadness. i thought about the different things i've read on this thread. i thought about my own needs to get a break from them baby, and just be with my toddler. i knew he'd fall asleep in less than 10 minutes. i thought about what HE really needed.

i knew that if i put him in the car with me and toddler, he'd fall asleep in the carseat. he loves going on errands. certainly, it is much harder on me to carry him around while chasing toddler. but he would be happy. i thought about this thread. i thought about how easy he is to comfort. i decided to rise to the challenge of motherhood! i would put his needs first, and go get him, hold him, and take him with me.










but can i tell you the ironic ending?? i went to get him, and he was asleep! i actually thought for a second about waking him up!!! hahaha! i didn't!

so thanks mamas! next time i'll be able to put him first!
thank you!


----------



## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

Thanks asherah...
i really mean it, thank you.
i guess that is what i wanted to here from you OR from this community.
that morning that i op, i just saw the title "night time parenting" and thought i would tell my story and see what happened.
i had never really been here excpet for when my dd was born and i need support about co sleeping (i was getting a lot of criticism from family about how i was going to KILL my baby...LOL)
anyway, 'nough said
CLUELESS
now i know
and this does need to be a safe place for that way of night time parenting. not a place for debating CIO or its "effectiveness"....
i used to spend a lot of time on the vax board and it used to make a lot of regulars upset when unknowing (or knowing) people would come to argue about vax safety and accuse non vaxers of stuff like child abuse....etc
anyway
NOW i understand
that i did that here.
but i did not know it so again, THANK you for welcoming me and forgiving me.

i wanted to mention another thing
i think it is hard for the mommas who, for what ever reason, think they ARE doing the best thing for their babies by letting them CIO.

like that momma (APmom98) with her thread "our CIO story"
at that moment she thought she was doing what was best for her son. she finally tried it, against her better judgement, becuase of outside pressure and because she felt at the end of her rope. of coarse it was a horriable regret for her and i am not advocating CIO...but it is difficult to sort through what is best for your baby sometimes..
correct me if i am wrong...but it seemed like she was questioning herself and saying, "maybe this is what he needs/wants? maybe i should try it? nothing else is working? maybe this would be best for him...everyone else thinks this will work"
that is no easy delima
her holding herself on the couch crying is not a mom selfishly saying ..."i don't want to take care of my child's needs anymore. i need to put myself first...." i am not even refering to the moms who are thinking that if they don't get some rest/time away that they can not do their best mothering.
i am talking about the moms who think this step at that moment is their attmept at good mothering.

i guess i just wanted to make it clear to those of us who have never felt pushed to take that desprate messure, that it is not ALWAYS a case of a mom who has decided to stop putting the needs of the child first.
some moms who try this (i am saying a as a rare or one time last resort) could feel like by doing so they are putting their child's needs first.
right or wrong.
i wanted to seperate those two scenerios by the mother's intent...because i think it matters to the mothers in this possition and their babies....i think there is a difference, ithink even the babies could even detect it.

i know that if i could really explain it to my dd she would feel the difference between me saying:
i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i just needed some time to myself, mommy is a person too....

AND

if i said: i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i knew you were beyond a healthy level of exaugstian, i felt like i had tried every way to comfort you and nothing was working. i thought i would try this. i thought i was doing what was best for you...

what do you veterens think about that? possiable?


----------



## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I think you should only tell her exactly what your heart wants to say. Therefore, I think you already have the answer mama.

asherah~ I love your post and wanted to say I think you ROCK!


----------



## Francy (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i just needed some time to myself, mommy is a person too....

AND

if i said: i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i knew you were beyond a healthy level of exaugstian, i felt like i had tried every way to comfort you and nothing was working. i thought i would try this. i thought i was doing what was best for you...

the first example is the mama who knows cio is not the preferred way to handle things, but she is choosing to do it in order to accomplish something else that she feels is important.

it sounds like the second description is a mama thinking she is doing the best for her child by trying cio.

for me, when i have done cio, i have done the first one. i am not at my best when i have done it, and i am NOT doing the best for my child. i have chosen myself (or maybe a private activity with my older son) OVER the needs of my baby. in respect to the baby, this is not a nice thing to do. i waffle a bit on this. most of me says: you are being mean. the baby wants to be held. make your baby happy. ar part of me (the part that hears the "majority view") says: life isn't fair. we can't all be happy all the time. the baby will survive it. (gee--sounds like MY mother's voice!)

i try to listen to the first voice! reading gentle reminders of this (like those written by heartmama) helps me put things in an AP perspective.

since i don't think i am doing it for the good of my child, a discussion like this is especially helpful to me b/c it gives me the strength and encouragement to do better the next time i feel like doing cio. (b/c i tend to agree with the AP view in theory, but in practice, i blow it sometimes!)


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moma justice*
T
if i said: i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i knew you were beyond a healthy level of exaugstian, i felt like i had tried every way to comfort you and nothing was working. i thought i would try this. i thought i was doing what was best for you...

what do you veterens think about that? possiable?


I am a little afraid to "get involved" in this thread, but I will tell you my story.

My oldest DD never seemed to be comforted by being held. She would ALWAYS scream in our arms. She was ONLY happy in her bouncy seat, her carseat or in her stroller.

I bf'd her with as little contact as possible because when she was touched or stroked she would immediately start screaming.

I slept with her in our bed for the first few months and she would cry for hours (druing which time we would try to comfort her but nothing worked) and even after she was asleep she would cry out constantly and often wake up screaming when I touched her.

At three months my DH could not handle the lack of sleep and wanted to try something different. I felt that what we were doing wasn't doing her much good and went along. During the start of her hours long crying jag, we put her down in a crib. I was in the room but not touching her (since she hated that). She fell asleep in about 6 minutes. She slept well for the first time. She woke up making cooing noises instead of SCREAMING. I always fed her when she woke up. She almost never cried when she went "back down".

We kept doing this and she did cry a few minutes each night alone for another week, but far far less than when we were trying to comfort her.

I do not feel badly about what I did, though I will admit we did it in part becasuse we felt that without sleep we were not being good parents. But I did not do it with my others, since they did not seem to need it. In fact, I think my oldest is just very unusual and I wouldn't compare my situation to anyone else's.


----------

