# All day whining/crying/tantrums... do I move on with my day?



## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

DS who is 2 1/2 yo has been crying and whining A LOT the last few weeks. I sit with him, make myself available to him if he needs someone to hug him etc... but sometimes I have to get up and do stuff. I have a 2 mo in the house too and I also DO need to eat and cook etc. It usually starts in the morning, sometimes it go on for about an hour or two and I start to feel dizzy from hunger. At this point, because I know once I'm too hungry, I can't really function very well, I tell DS that I need to eat something. I still talk to him or let him know I'm there if he's still crying, but he usually is upset that I had to get up and leave. Same thing happens when DD needs me and he's crying. I need to get up and take care of her too.
And even sometimes, it's not something dire that I need to do. But sitting in one place for so long while DS cries loudly in my ears is just maddening. I need to get up or I feel like someone is choking me after a while. Again, I keep letting him know I'm still there and I go back to him over and over again to give him a hug/kiss/stroke on the cheek.

But WWYD?

(Also, I know there must be something underlying and I'm trying to figure that out... I think it could be a whole host of reasons - most obviously, a baby in the house. But he did do this a few months back before DD was born too)


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## JulieK (Aug 25, 2004)

nak
just some support, but i do think you should eat before you get dizzy b/c your mood can most definitely influence that of your child.

something that worked for me when ds was a bit younger, like maybe 2, was when i saw his cying was sort of escalating and he didn't seem to want anything in particular was to put him back in his crib or just in his room and tell him i'd be happy to help him as soon as he stopped crying (you can use "a big-boy voice" if you are uncomfortable telling him to stop crying). he would cry more initially, but only for a few minutes, and then it really worked. i think often i was contributing to the hysteria by giving him an audience.

if this is too much cio for you i understand, but i found it very helpful in snapping ds out of a funk when nothing else would (like eating, nursing, hugging, playing, or any other distraction).


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## ttcintexas (Nov 7, 2005)

My DD (35 months) has been whining a lot lately as well. I too have a two month old. I attribute DD's whining to a combination of her age, the new baby and her refusal to nap, leaving her more tired than she should be. I do not react well to the whining and have been yelling which I do not like, and which does not make her stop whining (of course). She is much better when we are busy, out and about doing errands, playing with friends at the park or a playgroup, or if she has someone's undivided attention to play with her--thank goodness the inlaws are here for the holidays! I have been wanting to get a college student in to play with her one-on-one a couple days a week. I need to get on that after the new year. I really agree with the PP about our mood affecting that of our LO's. When I am able to deal, redirect and make things fun, DD is much better. Anyway, not sure if any of this helps, but you are not alone.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Ive never been through this, so I don't really know...

But, maybe just try having some fun. Even if he doesn't want to have fun. Turn on some fun music and dance (rather obnoxiously) while you cook. Be silly and crazy.

Start a project that you seem to be enjoying and maybe he will want to join you. Buy some big chunky paint brushes and some washable paint or water colors and swoop lots of paint onto a giant peice if paper.

When you fold the laundry, ball up a few pairs of socks and throw it at him.. then look overly surprised and then throw the next one at him. Hopefully he will throw them back. Then maybe you two can play a little laundry basketball.

Don't underestimate the need for some timeout too though. Kids need some alone time too. Maybe he would like to look through his toy box, or something else that interests him, or maybe he just needs to chill out on the bed with a little soft music.

In our house, music can cure everything. (music, a hot bath, and fresh salsa is the family cure-all)


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Can you bring him with you to the kitchen? Maybe prepare some simple foods while he is sleeping? Have a plate of a variety of foods that you can eat together. Maybe on the floor on a blanket-- a picnic? Or could he play in the warm soapy sink water while you work in the kitchen? Could you have special kitchen toys that you choose together? Playdough, garlic press, maybe a little tub of rice with funnels etc? My kids got a lot of i mileage out of an easle int he kitchen. You can use cups of water w/ instead of paint-- doesn't make a mess while you aren't watching, but the child gets the paintbrush affect on the paper or chalkboard.

No dount it's hard. I had very clingy toddlers. I found a backpack saved my life at times, too. Ones with a hip belt work best for me. I would get backaches unless I pulled the belt really tight to get the weight onto my hips and off my back. With the backpack, I could have room on my front to prepare things, hold the baby etc.

it will pass...and it's not abnormal behavior. It is exhasuting behavior.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

I do involve him in the kitchen and try to make fun out of everyday chores and it worked until recently. When he starts crying, nothing really can stop it. And I don't try to too much, but I do want to sit with him. It's just sometimes, I can't (or I just need to move away for a while for my own sanity). But when I can't... I feel like I'm abandoning him.
Overall, we do try to stay active and go out... I've been taking my DD out since 4 days old because DS just can't be cooped up at home for too long. But even getting to the point of getting out of the house has become a struggle, because sometimes the crying ensues first thing in the morning.
At times, it feels like he's just looking for a reason to cry. He'll ask me something simple like, "Why are you eating oatmeal mommy?" and I'll respond, "Because I like it" and he starts whining, "I don't wannnnnt you to likkkkkeee itttttt!" and will start to cry. I would be prone to think that maybe he's doing this because he sees me respond to DD's cries so he thinks maybe this is a good thing? I don't know. As it is, I feel like DD gets neglected enough because she's so calm and patient about things and I'm trying to keep DS feeling left out.
Oh also, he doesn't want to be in a carrier and most of the time I have DD in it because DS doesn't let her sleep otherwise.
He has an easel and a kitchen, both of which he loves. But I have never tried bringing the easel into the kitchen... tomorrow's experiment








I am also going to try suggesting that he listen to music while lying down to calm down a bit.
I know it's not abnormal... I just don't know if I'm aggravating the situation by leaving at times when I need to.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

It does pass, but it's such a trying time. Is he is a growth spurt, you think? Maybe he needs more complex carbs or some protein for stable blood sugar? I had one who needed a blast of hard boiled egg every now and again. She understands that even now a lot of her emotional wavering is a reminder for her to eat something specific. (She likes to eat, but she is not a big eater...sometimes she forgets). Sometimes the end of the world here only means it's been a few hours since your last yogurt smoothie. Might he have allergies?

It's winter, so maybe he is the sort who needs more light. Maybe sit and read near the window lots.

My two middle children are only 15 mos apart in age, so the old baby was very needy when the new babe arrived. I tried to keep everything I needed nearby. Diapers in a basket in the living room, water bottles, books on tape, things like that. Sometimes I don't know how I managed it. A lot of that time is a foggy blur of exhaustion. I am pretty sure that was when I discovered VCRs and the occasional sickening Barney tape.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Things have been better this week, but I was still wondering, because I didn't really get any input on this particular question: How do you feel about a mom getting up and moving on with her day even if DC is still crying (as long as she lets DC know that she is there when she needs him and keeps checking up on him)? I do this when it's just gone on so long that I can't take it anymore and need to get up and do something (or if I really have to get up because I have to tend to my newborn), but I'm just wondering what everyone's opinions are because I feel so darn guilty about it.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
Things have been better this week, but I was still wondering, because I didn't really get any input on this particular question: How do you feel about a mom getting up and moving on with her day even if DC is still crying (as long as she lets DC know that she is there when she needs him and keeps checking up on him)? I do this when it's just gone on so long that I can't take it anymore and need to get up and do something (or if I really have to get up because I have to tend to my newborn), but I'm just wondering what everyone's opinions are because I feel so darn guilty about it.

I feel fine about it. As long as we are available. I believe our job is not to stop the emotion but to help them through it. But there is a balance. Always there is a balance.

Also...what you are doing doesn't seem to be all that consoling to him if he is crying for an hour or more anyway..maybe a change will snap him out of it.

and guilt...release it..absolutely useless and erroneous. Being emotionally available for your child is good. Just be available.

How has the week gone..have you been just going about things?

eta..the underlying cause..molars? Does he have all his molars through yet. My dd who is now 26mos has a heck of a time with molars. She still has 2 left to come through..she is much more emotional when she is cutting teeth.

Oh...and if you can narrow it down to a time maybe look at what he's eating for breakfast. If it's always a carb, switch to a protein. or whatever..maybe change that morning breakfast routine or add in a snack an hour after breakfast. My kids don't eat much at breakfast and an hour later need a small snack until lunch.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

You need to balance comforting him with taking care of your needs. It's OK to give him some room and leave him alone to work it out. In reality, your family needs to get fed, etc. etc. and it's just not practical for your family's basic needs to suffer.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
How do you feel about a mom getting up and moving on with her day even if DC is still crying (as long as she lets DC know that she is there when she needs him and keeps checking up on him)?

I am totally fine with doing that. I remember that ds would get upset about various stuff around that age. He didn't cry for very long about anything, but I think I have MUCH less patience than you have. lol (I say that every age is my favorite age- except for 2.5. lol)

If he was crying, and I couldn't stay with him (because I had something that had to be done, or I just couldn't take it anymore), I'd get up and do my thing, and try to be as emotionally available to him as I could. Occasionally, I'd offer something to do with me (help cook, etc). I also would ask if there was something that I could do to help.

Mornings have always had the same routine around here- I get my coffee before anything, then we nurse at the computer. I think that's been very helpful, because he doesn't get upset when I tell him that I have to get up for my coffee, etc. It just *is* I guess, kwim? So perhaps a routine for breakfast would help? Especially if you tell him that your body needs food early in the morning, or you don't feel very good (talking specifically about yourself, iykwim).

Perhaps my situation is a little different, in that I *couldn't* sit calmly with him for any amount of time and listen to him cry. It would end up with me insisting that he stop







(and I definitely DON'T want to do that).


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## auntiehallie (Apr 25, 2005)

molars, yeah. that's the first thing i thought of, too. man, molars coming through will turn even really happy, mellow and even tempered kids into clingy, whingey nightmares. and it's hard to guess this, too, because all kids whinge *sometimes* and you get the impression they just have to be this way. surely this is occasionally the case - but the drawn-out, days-long marathons of it usually indicate achey (as opposed to sharp or injury) pain to me.

could be growth, too, but i would guess the teeth first.

if you have a pain-management plan in your household, i'd start there. you can ask if he has ouchy teeth - sometimes he will be able to answer. but usually, at this age, i think they aren't aware of it as a separate thing because it's an ache and not the direct result of something they did, like bonking on a fall. they and the pain are one, and until they are relieved of it and/or get some experience recognizing it, they can't answer reliably.

i had pretty good luck using the sign for pain (index fingers touching), even with post-speech toddlers, to ask about this. somehow getting the word *and* the visual seems to connect better than just asking. do they lose their ability to process words a bit when they're in pain? i dunno. but it's a good one to work on. repetition. it's all about repetition.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Yikes, the last two days have been a doozy. The sound of crying is just making me mad. Once having felt an enormous amount of compassion when DS would cry, I just feel like running away now. I'm actually having physical reactions to it (besides the I wanna take care of my baby feeling), I feel sick when he cries. Anywhere we go, he doesn't want to go back home and he cries. I have tried so many things in this regard, but that'll be for another thread. I used to be ok waiting him out etc, but I have to look at DD's needs too. She starts crying or needs to be fed, put to sleep, etc too. I try to stay at home just thinking maybe we just need some downtime, but he cries at home all day, which is even worse.
I really love the idea of consensual living but I just don't know how to do it with a 2 1/2 yo. Deva33mommy, I have actually tried your suggestion to ask him (you wrote in one of my other posts that was similar) what he thinks, how we can make this agreeable for all of us, but I just don't think he is verbal enough to grasp it. He just says, "huh?" or cries when I ask him "are you feeling xyz". No answers, no suggestions, no agreement to my suggestions. I can imagine it working when he gets a little older but right now, it just ends in my forcing him in the carseat.
Wow, sorry if this post is haphazard. My brain is spinning today. I want to be compassionate when he cries, but I'm just starting to get angry now. I feel mean now (although I'm trying to keep my mean thoughts to myself). I'm sure it's playing out in how I act. But I just feel at a loss right now. I'm trying to even accept that maybe I can't change things right now, maybe it's just a thing he needs to go through, but now I'm actually feeling sick when he cries, sharp headaches, nausea etc.
I don't think it's molars cuz this has been going on for a while now, on and off.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I don't know how old your baby is, but are you getting enough sleep, essential fatty acids, magnesium supplementation? Most pregnant and nursing mamas, especially, (and most Americans), are deficient in magnesium. We use Natural Calm. Magnesium deficiency is associated with sound sensitivity and with mood balance.

Have you validated that ds probably doesn't like having the baby take *his* mama away from him? He is used to undivided attention. I know dh had a similar adjustment when ds was born since we'd been just us for so many years.

pat


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

DD is 2mo. I'm not getting enough sleep but I am taking CLO and Natural Calm. I definitely am not getting enough time to myself but now that DH is working two jobs, I'm not really sure how I can.
I will try to talk to him about the new baby again. Maybe he's feeling insecure. I am really trying to give him a lot of attention, but I don't want to neglect DD either.


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

I also have a 2.5 yo old screamer/crier. You can see my post in this forum "I ran out of ideas". One thing that has helped with my dd (though, as you can see from my post, we still have stuggles) is protein, protein, protein. I need to stay on top of it diligently. It is especially important in the mornings. She ofen wakes up screaming and then doesn't want to eat breakfast. I put on the TV, which distracts her, while I feed her fried egg whites ("no yellow mama!"). She also drinks a smoothie made of tofu and green food with some supplements from our ND. As I said, though, she wakes up screaming so we are going to try to pack a cooler tonight and have it in our room so that when she wakes, she can have a glass of soymilk or a yogurt drink (she doesn't nurse in the mornings and I've found that, while comforting, it doesn't give her the staying power protein boost that she needs). I'll let you know if I see a vast improvement.


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## dflanag2 (Oct 4, 2005)

I agree that you should not feel guilty for getting up and meeting your needs. You obviously care very much about your DS and you are not only trying to help him get through these crying spells, but digging for the underlying problem.

In these types of situations with my DS, I try to reflect the feelings he is expressing. ("You're feeling unhappy (in pain, etc.) and you don't know why." "You're sad right now and you're not sure what will make you feel better.") Then I accept that he is feeling bad and give him the freedom to be in that emotion. I don't try to cheer him up or tell him to stop crying because I don't want to send the message that he is doing something bad or wrong by expressing his emotions. That pressure to 'cheer up' can be really subtle and seems to have the opposite effect.

In this case, I would tell DS that I was going to go eat breakfast, and ask him if he would like to come to the kitchen and watch, then make a comfortable spot for him to watch what I was doing (to avoid isolating him in his pain and to give him the comfort of going through our regular routine despite his unhappiness). I would tell him to let me know if he needed anything, then go about my business and leave him alone (in my presence) to sort his feelings out.

I try to express through my body language/eye contact that I am calm and confident rather than angry, guilty or alarmed by his behavior, which I hope expresses to him that what he is experiencing falls within the realm of normal, just something else that he needs to learn to work through. If things go on for a while and I'm worried, I'll tell him, "I'm worried about you because you are feeling so sad and crying for all this time. What can I do to help you?" If he can't tell me, then I would again tell him to let me know if I can do anything, then go about my business in his presence.

Also, have you tried talking to him about the incidents at another time? I know he is only 2.5 but he would probably understand most of what you say if you ask him about it. "Remember this morning when you were feeling sad and crying for a long time? I was worried about you because I didn't know what I could do to help you while you were feeling sad. If you feel sad like that again, what would you like me to do to help you?" Maybe he will be able to articulate the problem better when he isn't upset.

I have learned some pretty amazing reasons behind DS's behavior with this calm waiting approach, most recently that he didn't want to wash his hands because the water tap in my bathroom sink is 'too loud' and he prefers to wash his hands downstairs. Oh, and also I learned that the reason he threw the loaf of bread at the grocery store and accidentally hit another customer on the head was because he was 'hungry'.







: I guess we have to brainstorm some better ways of letting me know that he needs something to eat!

Good luck,
-dflanag2


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

I think DS is really having a hard time expressing himself (which may lend to the frustration he's feeling all the time). When he does something, I do ask later a lot of times why he did that or why he was angry etc, but he answers with "I don't know". If I suggest reasons why he might have been feeling that way he usually agrees with the first thing I say, which makes me wonder if he's really comprehending what I'm getting at.
What you described dflanag2 sounds a lot like how I'm handling these situations. He usually continues to cry though, even after suggesting he come sit near me while I take care of something.
Btw, what you said about your DS throwing bread at someone because he was hungry made me chuckle inside, but then I realized I actually could see MYSELF feeling that way when I'm hungry - I just have impulse control








Hmm.. the protein thing is interesting. He usually wakes up in the morning pretty happy and then it everything starts to take a downturn 20 minutes later. I'll keep that in mind, a cooler is a good idea.


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## amber913 (Jun 4, 2006)

Did I write that OP? Was I asleep when I wrote it? Or do I just not remember it? Oh, wait, my boy's 3. It wasn't me.









I'm right there with you. I'm gonna read your responses now to see what we should do.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amber913* 
Did I write that OP? Was I asleep when I wrote it? Or do I just not remember it? Oh, wait, my boy's 3. It wasn't me.









I'm right there with you. I'm gonna read your responses now to see what we should do.



















Today, DH was home so I was able to give DD to him for a while, while I had some one on one time with DS. I think he really is craving some more cuddling and having me all to himself. He dealt very well with the transition initially so I think maybe I took that for granted. He's still crying a lot, but as we were playing I could really see how happy he was. I just am not sure how to do that normally on a day to day to basis because DH is not really home and able to help. DD is pretty relaxed but she does need me to hold her in the sling but that prevents me from being able to do some things he likes, like wrestling, really tight cuddles etc. Guess I'll have to think of some ideas.


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## mkmama (Jul 9, 2006)

I have been following your thread and EMPATHIZING mightly...this week (and possibly due to a minor cold) has been horrendous.

Today was a complete turn around. Have you been inside more due to DD or the cold? We forced ourself to take an exploratory walk, in the stroller (we usually use the Ergo so the stroller is a fun treat for DS) and went to see different birds and pick up leaves and just get out to fresh air. When we came home at 1pm the day was completley different. He was obedient, fun, the little one i know he wants to be...

So i guess i post b/c maybe he just needs a change of scenery...if its too cold for the walk (it was very mild here today) going to the mall just to run around or an indoor play area might be just what he needs to snap out of it. Just a thought since we're going thru the same thing...except the baby isn't here yet!!!! ahhh!!!!

And







:!


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## amber913 (Jun 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 









Today, DH was home so I was able to give DD to him for a while, while I had some one on one time with DS. I think he really is craving some more cuddling and having me all to himself. He dealt very well with the transition initially so I think maybe I took that for granted. He's still crying a lot, but as we were playing I could really see how happy he was. I just am not sure how to do that normally on a day to day to basis because DH is not really home and able to help. DD is pretty relaxed but she does need me to hold her in the sling but that prevents me from being able to do some things he likes, like wrestling, really tight cuddles etc. Guess I'll have to think of some ideas.

Right there with you again! DS was wonderful the first couple months after becoming a big brother, but seems to be getting more clingy and, well, overall unbareable at times. Meanwhile, DD is a low-maintenance little angel. I try to hold them both, but after awhile, I start to feel clausterphobic, and need to just not be touched. Ugh. This too shall pass.


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## wagamama (Jul 3, 2006)

OP, I could have written all of your posts on this thread word for word, right down to the 2.5 year old DS and new baby DD (3 weeks old,) and my inability to get something to eat in the morning!

DD is super easy -- well, she can't sleep on her own, but loves the Moby wrap, so I wear her for most of the day. But DS is truly unbearable -- cranky, demanding, and worst of all, sad. Sometimes I'll look over at his face while we are playing Lego or something, and he just looks so sad.









He's also always in a bad mood when he wakes up, and wants to be carried from the bed to the livingroom, and then wants to cuddle for a long time. Meanwhile, I'm holding the baby in the Moby or in my arms, and feeling hungry and resentful.









I know that DS needs me so much right now, but I often feel like I don't have enough time/energy/arms to fulfill his needs along with the baby's. (DH is away, so I am alone for the next six weeks).

Also, we seem to have developed this weird dynamic where he's sad and whiny with me, but happy with his father or aunt or other moms/kids. When we are alone, his "negative" behaviour tends to escalate. and the more I sympathise, the worse he seems to get. So one thing I'm tryng to do is spend as much time with other people as possible.

As for the mornings, I compromise. I do carry him to the living room and cuddle him for a few minutes. Then I put on his favorite DVD







and basically insist on getting breakfast ready for all of us. We all feel much better after eating.

Basically I'm feeling guilty and sad over all of this. I wanted to have children close together, so that they could play together as they grew up. But I feel like I'm "stealing" DS's babyhood/toddlerhood away from him -- he's being forced to grow up too fast.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

mkmama, wagamama, and amber913









I know that sad face you are talking about wagamama. It's just so heartbreaking. I'm feeling so sad for him and resentful too just like you were describing. I want to have some time where I am not being touched! Even at night I am being touched by at least one of my kids if not both, and while I love cuddling, I need some non-touchy time. And because DD is so small, I guess I have expectations from DS to give me my space. It must be shocking for him, once the baby, now expected to grow up.
mkmama, we actually are going out A LOT. And it's great, but leaving places has been a BIG problem. It's problem enough that I sometimes would rather listen to the whining at home than take him out.
DS really needs me right now, but I am just so tapped out. I am realizing more each day that I need some time to myself. I need something too look forward to so that I can keep my energy levels up etc. But DH is just so busy now with two jobs. I used to get 2 hours a day to myself and it was really like a lifeline.
But you do what you have to do. I know a lot of moms on MDC go through so much more with DP's that aren't even home, single moms etc... so I get embarrassed even complaining sometimes.
My mom offered to come over two nights a week and take care of the kids for me, but then, I feel bad sometimes taking up the offer. She offers out of love for me but she has a lot of issues of her own, sciatica, migraines, working like crazy, plus my father's cancer has come back (being treated, we are hoping for the best).
I guess right now, I feel like any help I get, I will always feel guilt. It's mentally draining either way I go. Even with DH, he's exhausted by the time he's done, but he tries his best to help me out. So I always feel guilty taking help from him. (He says he feels guilty going to work







) My uncle always says that guilt is a useless emotion... I am beginning to think it might be true.


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## BonMaman (Sep 25, 2005)

I too have been following this thread and can identify so strongly so much of it, especially the feelings you describe having in your most recent post.


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## MrsT (Jun 13, 2004)

Quote:

DD is super easy -- well, she can't sleep on her own, but loves the Moby wrap, so I wear her for most of the day. But DS is truly unbearable -- cranky, demanding, and worst of all, sad. Sometimes I'll look over at his face while we are playing Lego or something, and he just looks so sad.

He's also always in a bad mood when he wakes up, and wants to be carried from the bed to the livingroom, and then wants to cuddle for a long time. Meanwhile, I'm holding the baby in the Moby or in my arms, and feeling hungry and resentful.

I know that DS needs me so much right now, but I often feel like I don't have enough time/energy/arms to fulfill his needs along with the baby's. (DH is away, so I am alone for the next six weeks).

Also, we seem to have developed this weird dynamic where he's sad and whiny with me, but happy with his father or aunt or other moms/kids. When we are alone, his "negative" behaviour tends to escalate. and the more I sympathise, the worse he seems to get. So one thing I'm tryng to do is spend as much time with other people as possible.

Ditto. DS now cries to LEAVE preschool instead of when I leave him.







And even if he's in a great mood when we leave, as soon as we walk in the door he's hitting me or whining or throwing something because I've told him something he doesn't like (I told him this morning that he could have a cupcake (which is super rare that I would even think of giving him one) right before we left for church, but not for breakfast - this caused him to hit me then throw himself on the floor














. And I can't even use the excuse that he doesn't know how to communicate - he's insanely verbal and has been capable of saying he's frustrated for at least a year - he just chooses to use whining as his way of communicating.

It was bad before DD arrived 6 weeks ago, but now it has escalated and is also magnified by my lack of sleep and tending to DDs needs. Ugh. And then top it all with the mommy guilt for not being able to spend as much time alone with him....

So I'm of no help, just here to commiserate. I'll let you know if I find any solutions...


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## knitdelaware (Dec 18, 2007)

I only have a baby, but I can tell you what my mother did with us. She had 4 kids so she is the queen of time and affection management







If any of us became too out of it to comfort she would tell us that we needed to lie down in our bed because we obviously were too worked up and needed to calm down. She would make us a nice warm drink while we were in there so we never minded taking the time-out. It wasn't a punishment, you see, it was a rest! Also, there was an understanding early on that the house has to be run and we can either help or back off and let her do her thing. Does that sound harsh? It isn't meant to be, only that we knew our behavior was instrumental in keeping things together. We were YOUNG when she started doing this, too...like toddlers. Good luck and big hugs!


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## hardin5 (Jan 29, 2008)

We just went through this with my 3 year old. I finally found a Naturopath Dr! She is great. She told me to give her Pustilla 3pellets, 3times, (30c)a day. It has been amazing! She is back to herself and bouncing all over the house and full of energy and life again! Finish the whole vile.
I have an 8 month old too so it was an emotional issue just like yours is....
they are trying to figure out their place and how to be "big" now.
Good luck! Hope this helps


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

I only read the 1st half, so I may be repeating, but I've been exactly where you are and am just coming off of it. (Though sometimes he does regress back to whinning just when I think he's outgrowing it.)

When ds is Whinny, for no good reason, I usually have 5 options I choose from:

1. Go outside = Lack of vitamin D is hard on everyone, get some direct sunlight. I get bored with playing so I usually rake leaves or get them to collect pretty leaves, look for worms or something that doesn't require me to push a tricycle over and over. A lot of times I clean the carport while they get preoccupied with toys or dirt and pots.

2. Just add water = Baths are an amazing cure both for my babies. Now 16mos and 32mos old. And they can really spend a lot of time in there while I clean the bathroom or fold laundry.

3. Time out = We have a stool, or any chair works for us. Whatever room we are in, I grab something or just a towel, and sit them on it and tell them they can't get up until they have their "happy face" on. Sometimes they sit themselves down now.

4. Baby wear em = With 2 mei tais you can put one on your back and one on your front. It's not as hard as it sounds, they pretty much even each other out and I can vaccum. Not to mention, it's a great way to tone your body, while lovin' on your babes. Usually one of them passes out pretty soon. (after they play peek a boo around mommy)

5. Art time = With some light corn syrup or pudding (you can probably also use yogurt) you can add some food coloring and make edible finger paint. I don't tell them it's edible, but I don't freak if they eat it. Ds really loves art time.

Hope this helps.


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## alisonbr (Sep 26, 2003)

Everything everyone else said, of course.

Also, although it's hard in the winter (depending on where you live) I find taking a walk outside can be very helpful. There's suddenly so much to look at! I'm talking about an impromptu walk around the house, short enough to leave a content or sleeping baby inside.

Also, I like Rescue Remedy. And don't underestimate the power of sleep for all of you. It doesn't always seem that it will help as much as it actually does.

And of course, this too shall pass!


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

When we lived in New England (now in GA) dh always shovelled the snow. Until I understood I needed sunlight, then I'd put ds in his bunting (he was 0 up to 9mos old when we lived there) and prop his infant seat up in the snow while I shovelled. We'd go in every few min, but he never seemed to get cold. The excercise combined with getting outside calmed us both down when things were getting hairy. Though I never really wanted to jump up and go out there. I always felt better afterward.


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## clovershade (Aug 5, 2005)

I think that there are a lot of great ideas on this post... be careful not to get overwhelmed by just that. I know that happened to me when i would try everything suggested (for our 5 little ones' issues) then have so much to keep up on and so much change to our normal routine that it actually would elevate the problem!









But here my ways of handling the problem. First I actually keep a list of ideas to reference when I feel overwhelmed that way I don't actually have to use any already over taxed brain cells to remember what my options are.

Some star suggestions from my list are: EFT meridian tapping (there is a free online manual) for myself and my family, letting the children know that you need their help because your ears are hurting from the screaming/crying/whining and need a break then offer helpful choices- would you like to cry quietly? take a break in another room? have mommy give you some space? ect what ever will give you some space from the noise. You anger with the crying and whining is a good indicator that you are at your limit and I find that if I don't have my boundaries a good space away from my limits I will become moody/angry. In other words even if I am handling the whining well I still offer the choices before I become overwhelmed. If the child doesn't make a choice then I make my own help them to a cool down area lovingly, or go to another room myself (only if the child is in a safe space) explaining that I need to take care of my ears but I will be back as soon as my ears feel better. Protecting mommy sanity is an excellent cause, without a healthy sane mommy family issues are a lot harder to solve I have found. Also I do use the 'I listen when you use a big voice'. I say it once and ignore everything until that happens.

Also I remember my oldest had issues when he couldn't say clearly what he wanted so sometimes just simple asking him to get up and show you what he wants or what would help him is great.

I hope this helps,
Jess


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

Just so happens that this link was attached to another newsletter that I got today. Hope it helps.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_parents-...ining_11980.bchttp://www.babycenter.com/0_parents-...ining_11980.bc


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## simplehome (Jul 13, 2004)

I'll join the sad little club here...

My son is 35 months, and the little one is 3 weeks now. It has been absolutely HORRID since before she was born, and even worse since.

My primary issue is his screaming----not really crying so much (although we have plenty of that, too), but SCREAMING as a method of causing us great pain. When he's angry, frustrated, hurt, he just screams at the top of his lungs. Not a high-pitched scream, but a from-the-gut YELL that is just so loud that it causes me physical pain. When it's just the two of us, I can manage the kind approach of trying to help him to feel better (which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't), but when there are more people here (DH, an adult friend) it is just unbearable. Sometimes it is so bad that we can't even get a word in edgewise to communicate with him about what is bothering him, or to talk to each other. If I try to separate myself from him to regain some sanity, he just follows me (screaming). If I lock the door, he stands outside the bedroom door pounding on it and crying. If I give him the option of an appropriate place to yell (his room with the door closed, outside, etc) he refuses to use it. If I TAKE him to his room and say something like "please get all of your yells out in your room, then come back and find me when you're done yelling) he won't use it. If I TAKE him there, he just runs right back out. Short of the inhumane option of locking the door from the outside or something







I don't know what else I can do. Ugh.

Far too often I end up yelling just because I cannot hold it together any longer. I am far more sensitive to sound than I ever thought. Other threads have suggested getting earplugs to help with mama's sound sensitivity issues, allowing us to work through the problem in a calmer manner, but am I supposed to hand out earplugs to anyone who walks through the door?

I just don't know what to do about this screaming. It feels like a weapon being used against me, and it hurts worse than hitting would in my opinion. He knows why he is yelling----to hurt me----I'm just having trouble helping him feel better. This all started over the summer, so 7 months ago, right around the time my milk dried up due to pregnancy. It has just gotten that much worse since the birth of our daughter 3 weeks ago.

For those who have BTDT, is this just something to wait out, while trying to comfort him and teach/model appropriate behavior in the meantime? I feel like we're all going to go insane one day soon from the noise.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Sorry just need to vent. It's been 3 months like this and I feel like I'm going crazy. I've had both kids on me, for the past 3 hours, with DS just crying and crying and crying, getting us both sweaty and I just don't know what to do anymore. I just am not allowed to be home. The second we come home, this starts. I don't know what else to do besides lock myself in a room and put a pillow over my head. I feel so angry with him nowadays because I just can't take the crying anymore. DD is always pushed to the sidelines because she's so patient and calm . DS was always high needs. It's just not fair to her. Even to ask for a glass of water he has to cry and whine. Ok, gonna go back to the crying. thought 3 minutes of blocking it out while typing might help.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I identify with your posts so much, mama. I have a recently-turned-whiny 2.5-year-old and an infant as well. I don't have any advice but couldn't read and not post.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks







and







to you too. I need to figure a way out to better this situation. He's obviously in some kind of distress - but I'm not sure how or if I can make it better. I feel like we both need to come up for air. I actually don't understand why his throat isn't killing him from crying for so many hours. I am considering ear plugs. I think I need it now. He doesn't do this with anyone but me - my DH comes home and he's 80% happier.


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

Ok, I've waited a few days to post. And nobody else seems to be offering any gentle discipline advice. So let me just tell you my personal experience. My babies are 34 mos and 20 mos. We tried the gentle discipline. I even posted some techniques earlier on this thread that we used to use. (Not to say that we don't still do fun things throughout the day to change it up a bit) It just seemed like as time went on ds got worse, expecting me to make things fun for HIM at all times. And there is a difference between not being able to express a need and just being down right whinny and fit throwing. I felt like he wasn't learning how to be happy unless I was doing something for him. Never mind the house not getting clean, dinners weren't getting made, lunches were something thrown together. (that's hard to do on a tight budget) As it turns out, gentle disipline isn't for us. After constantly being impressed by my sister's children and their impecible manners and especially joyful personalities & rarely ever whining (her children are ages 10, 8, 6, 3, & 20mos) I decided to try the parenting method that she uses. If you are interested PM me. Please no one scold me for posting this. I just don't see anyone else offering any help, and trust me, I've spent many a day praying for the next nap. I don't do that anymore, and just want to offer any help I can for a fellow worn out momma.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

As it turns out, gentle disipline isn't for us.
I find that when my patience is at its lowest, is when I am at my neediest. I figure the same for our son. If someone gives me less than gentle guidance, I'm not apt to feel more cooperative, more agreeable, or happier.

My suggestion is to delegate. Nurturing a cooperative home, is something I want to model. So, when I don't feel like I have anything more to give, I call in for resources and reinforcements: paper plates, frozen meals, wear the clothes without doing as much laundry, reuse towels, skip changing the bed. ASK for help~!

ASK for help for specific items, like pick up xyz at the store for me, toss a load into the dryer, take the trash up to the street, help Jr. brush his teeth, change the linen on that bed, unload the dishwasher, sort and fold the clothes from the dryer, carry the towels up and put them in the closet. Every little task adds up. *People often offer to help; but we often refuse* out of our cultural attachment to "Independence". Children were not evolved to be parented by one person alone. Mamas were not evolved to parent alone. Think of three people whom you could ask to stop by to help for 30-60 minutes once a week for a month. Make a list of things you could delegate. Share the load. Folks want to help!

Protein, water, magnesium, fresh air help to improve my patience.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

This is an old post of mine from a thread *"dealing with a new sibling - dd out of control*". http://www.mothering.com/discussions...te#post8444464

Quote:

I am sorry that you are so exhausted by all of this. It sounds excruciating for you and your daughter. She sounds beside herself. You sound beside yourself. And to top it off, I imagine you are exhausted from nursing a new baby constantly. And probably sleep deprived. That sounds like you are at your wits end.

The number one thing is to find a way to get some "me" time to rejuvenate throughout the day. Eat Protein. Sleep when they nap. Delegate everything. Postpone everything except the most critical Eat and Sleep. Do take out, left overs, frozen meals. ASK for help from everyone for any little thing that can be delegated. ACCEPT help for any little thing that is offered. Get out of the house! Go anywhere that is more interesting to your daughter, than that new baby that keeps taking up all of mama's time. It is hard to coordinate and collect everything that you need to leave the house; but a change of scenery can do wonders for "the four walls are closing in" feeling of everybody.

Buy the book "Siblings Without Rivalry" ASAP. The gist of it is to validate that your older daughter's life sucks with a new baby taking all of HER mama's time right now. Do not explain away her feeling with the information that the baby will love her and she will love it and get to play with it. NONE of that matters to a two year old who feels like she has lost her mama and her foundation in life. Her world has changed irrevocably, and without her consent or ability to understand that it will change again for the better, eventually because of having a sibling. But right now, TODAY, it sucks having a baby in the house to her because the baby took her mama's attention away from her. It is counter-intuitive, but say "You do not like the baby. You want the baby to leave. You want mama all to yourself. You want the baby to go back away." And I feel very certain she will say "YES!".

This does not mean she will feel this way forever. But to deny her real feelings, right now, means that she must carry them alone and figure out what to do with the big and scary feelings. If you help her to give voice to the feelings, they will not feel so scary and overwhelming to her. She will not 'get over' this quickly. And talking about her dissatisfaction with this infringement on her life will not make the feelings deeper. It will help her to process them and *connect* to you, and she will understand that she is not alone, that you ARE there to support her.

Spending one-on-one time is so, so hard with a baby. Set the baby down. I am very AP and do not say this lightly. But get a swing, a bouncy chair, a carrier and give some of the 'time up in arms' to your older daughter. The girl's life is upside down and she needs to be held and heard. Then she will feel and believe that her connection with you is not broken. And she will understand that the baby is not more important. Reassure her fears as they are bigger than she knows what to do with them, except to act on her primal anger. And when this gains your full attention, it is re-enforced. You can choose to ignore her behaviors when she is acting destructively, yelling and hitting and kicking. But this does not *connect* with her pain and loss. *She needs to mourn the loss of being the most important person in your life.* That will take time. And if you help her through it, it will happen roughly, because this is a great pain for her. But she will end up *connected* to you, rather than alone with her pain.

Eat protein. Try to find respite for household chores, shopping, laundry, etc. for several weeks. Give your full attention to both children, not to the house. Get a mother's helper to play with your older daughter; so that she gets the undivided attention still. Get an adult to carry the baby around while you play with her alone in another room. Create an "extended family" for help. Doing it alone is not heroic, it is not necessary, it is not natural. Ask for help.

It will get better. Cry. Breathe. And hold each other. Life is easier when we connect and share our fears and feelings. Help your daughter to do this and she will feel better and act "better".

Pat


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Egads! It sounds like a very trying time for you!!

Have you ruled out food allergies/sensitivities? My guys after dairy, salicylates (in grapes, apples, most fruits), citric acid, etc. are just down-right messes! They fall apart at the drop of a hat, they are whiny and fussy, they don't sleep well (so throw tired into that mix! bleh.), and it's just generally a big mess.

Take those allergens out and you've got kids who are cooperative, happy, agreeable, well rested, and we're rocking out in our consensual world!

Night and day.

Someone on my local AP list has a naturopath (I think...) who will send you a saliva test kit and you just get the kid to suck on it, send it back, and she'll tell you what kinds of allergies/toxins/yeast/etc. issues are going on. PM if you want the info. I'm getting ready to contact her so I can see what kinds of solutions we can come up with to get them healing.

And really, the time after my second was born was the worst time EVER. I couldn't believe how negatively I felt about my own kid. He was 3.5 and I thought it'd never get better. It lasted about 6 months. Now he's six years old and it's sooooo much better. But, that ornery, whiny, freaking out stage about drove me over the edge.

Have you read "Raising your Spirited Child?" That's a terrific book--for kids who are "more." Sounds like you've got one on your hands, too. I know when my kids are happy, they light up the room. When they're not......just as intense only in the other direction. But Raising Your Spirited Child can help you see that passion and intensity in a more postive light and help with some coping techniques to keep you sane in the process.

Hang in there, mama! It WILL get better.

Keep him busy. Put him in water. Lots of physical play. Lots of, "How can I help?" Work together and let him know you are on his team any time you can. All of that might not work in the moment, but it will pay off in the long run when this phase ends.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

One thing life taught me over and over and over was that when I was having challenges with DS, separation and detachment always always always had a big price tag, KWIM? But when I remembered to connect and really tried to understand what was going on, even if didn't find the cause, the result was always better than when I distanced myself. See, to me, it's not about fixing my DC, or their 'problems' but about healing myself so I could be present with them and give them the dignity of owning and solving their _own_ challenges. The solving part was a joint effort for a long time, but now my two have remarkable coping skills, far better than many of their peers. They have the attitude that challenges have solutions, unlike so many teens nowadays who seem hopeless







: My fantastically GD-successful sample of two


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

:


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shane* 
*As it turns out, gentle disipline isn't for us. *snip* I decided to try the parenting method that she uses. If you are interested PM me.* Please no one scold me for posting this. I just don't see anyone else offering any help, and trust me, I've spent many a day praying for the next nap. I don't do that anymore, and just want to offer any help I can for a fellow worn out momma.


(bolded mine)

I am not going to scold you but just gently remind you that this forum and site is not the place to advocate non-gentle methods of discipline as per the mothering user agreement. Also, I have a child with "impeccable manners and a joyful personality who doesn't whine a lot" and she has been gentle disciplined from the start so I don't believe it is fair to allude to punitive methods causing great kids.

OP, I am so sorry you are going through such a trying time but please remember that this is a huuuuuuuuuuuuge adjustment for your family. You have already acknowledged this so I am not trying to insult your intelligence but please be gentle on yourself and on your son. At 2.5, they are still pretty much babies themselves and as WuWei mentioned, he is most likely still mourning the loss of being the center of your universe in terms of being the only babe and little one in your life.

Please stick with gentle discipline, for the sake of your children and for the sake of your family -- because most likely, punitive methods are bound to backfire.

It sounds like your child just really is craving some connection. It sounds like he is scared, and feeling *pushed out* of being your one and only -- even though I know this is not your intention and I am sure you are trying your best to give him as much love and attention as ever.... it is simply not likely to happen as much as it used to with a newborn and he is still trying to figure out and understand that mama's love multiplies, it doesn't divide. YOU know this, you adore both your children... but in his smallness, he probably still needs time to understand that.

I agree with WuWei too, in that this isn't the time to be supermama... this is the time to go with convenience as much as you can -- even if it means doing a few things you wouldn't normally do to make life easier on you (such as say, paper plates for a couple weeks or whatever)....

You've gotten some great advice, and I don't have much to offer because I only have one child so far and I can't empathize (though I do sympathize).

Keep it up mama, you posted in GD because you want to be gentle with your children and I know you can ... this is just a really trying time on everyone in the family... you will get through and on the other side of it you will be so proud that you treated your child with dignity even when times were bumpy.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Thank you all again for much needed advice. Captain Crunchy, my full intent is to go about this the GD way... I'm just trying to keep my bearings at the same time. Pat, I completely agree about delegating, but unfortunately, I have no one to delegate to most of the time these days. DH works two jobs and is going to school, he tries the best he can... but he is human too. I am looking into getting a mother's helper - hopefully it'll be something I can afford. I know when DH had the time to take DS everyday for an hour it was truly a lifeline for me.
Also, as far as putting the newborn down, the girl is always being put down for DS's needs. I'm lucky that she's really laid back about things - but I don't think I should take that for granted either.... she does need mommy too. I want him to also realize she has value as well.
I have those two books on my reading queue







Maybe I should put the other books on the back burner for now and just read those.
Today, I just kind of shut down. I don't know if this was anti-GD of me or not - but after a week of crying kicked up a notch - I just was losing it. DS started crying again about 5 min after we woke up. I just did what I needed to do. I made breakfast, took care of the baby, offered to brush his teeth, make breakfast for him - but he just wanted to cry. I told him I needed to get some things done. He cried, I just kept doing what I needed... normally I sit with him for hours on end while he cries and in his wanting to hug me, squirms around the whole time hurting me quite a lot. I just don't know what the happy medium is right now. I just needed to go about my day today - I needed to feel normal. So I did, I ate my breakfast, and eventually he came and ate too. I held him for some time afterwards. After a while, he stopped crying and wanted to play with me.
I have to say it turned out to be a better day than the last few. But yeah, I'm really concerned about becoming disconnected. But I also don't want to feel like I'm drowning because I can't even get myself a glass of water without him throwing himself at my feet crying.
Ok, part of my resolution is to get some sleep and not get so addicted to the quiet in my house late at night. So I'm off to bed


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
Ok, part of my resolution is to get some sleep and not get so addicted to the quiet in my house late at night. So I'm off to bed









Sweet dreams









Things will be getting better. And better. And better. Your little one will adjust to having a sibling around (your description of how is trying to get your attention now seems to me like he is trying to mimic a baby - babies get attention by crying, why don't I do that too kinda thing). You seem to be adjusting too.

With so much on your plate no wonder you feel frustrated. All the great advice has been offered, I just would like to offer you a


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

This book is great and simple, Children Are People Too by Louise Porter (not to be confused with another book with a similar title). Unfortunately, it is an Australian book, but perhaps you can still get it.

The title is what drew me to it, treating a child with the same respect and emotional empathy as you would an adult. Even though toddlers don't behave like most adults, they certainly feel like all adults. They just express themselves more raw, more real. If they're sad, you know it.

The problem is, of course, not knowing why they are doing what they're doing, and this is where we go stir crazy.

The effectiveness of my parenting went up by a huge margin the day I saw my child as a _person_, not as a child. Hard to explain. But the result was me responding to her as though all her feelings were extremely valid. Which wasn't easy because I just don't think not having one's favourite cup is all that tragic, but then, my child doesn't think half the things I find tragic are either.







What moves her is evolving and maturing, even though everyone around me insisted that "respecting" her emotions meant she'd be pouting about cup choices on graduation day (heh, she's over that and yet I know people who were "disciplined" for such emotions and still grew up to pout on their wedding day about cup choices!).

My best friend whined and cried at me for months on end about her relationship. I'm not kidding, there was absolutely no room for anything else in our friendship, just her problem. It appears that even though a person _can_ communicate their problem to you, doesn't mean it is easier to fix.









What I'm saying through my placenta mixed up brain is it doesn't really matter as much what is wrong with him as the fact that _something_ is wrong. I believe physical ill health is the result of emotional ill health, so I won't be giving you diet advice - I believe it always starts in the heart. Even a newborn (gestation and labour can effect some people more profoundly).

My daughter stopped tantruming the _instant_ (I kid you not) I emotionally let go of wishing or requiring her to stop tantruming. Something within me communicated with something within her. All my talk achieved nothing, but a change of heart moves mountains.

I know your son isn't tantruming as such, but you do have a similar situation; a behaviour to which you have no idea how to respond to make it stop. We do most of our communicating non physically. We can read other people, even those who think they don't have that ability - those people suffer from lack of self trust more than lack of intuition. You don't need words from him, he doesn't need words from you. Esp since he can't use logic yet to define this issue within himself; he'll have to emote it out regardless.

He may want to feel that he is number one. And that ain't gonna happen, therefore he needs time to grieve (as Pat said). He may not even be in the grieving stage yet, it seems to me that he is still trying the best he knows how to get all of your attention, to try to be that center of the universe again. If the behaviour started during the latter stages of your pregnancy, much like my daughter's recent emotional outbursts, it is probably related to the sibling aspect. Can he be slung to you? I can't recall through the thread the answer to that. If he is demanding your touch, I can't think of another solution than to suck it up, basically, and sling him until he is healed. Let's face it, childbirth is the first lesson in surrender, acceptance and good ol' fashioned suck-it-up-ness; parenting is the lifelong follow up to that. Balinese baby's feet do not hit the ground until they are 2 years old. So 2.5 isn't too old to be slung, so he can be kind of "weaned" from you physically. I also feel that he starts becoming distraught when you come home because there are no distractions left. I recall this feeling well when I had PPD. I used to try to distract myself with cinema, magazines, visits, ANYTHING to avoid being home in my reality, which was "life is not how I want it to be".

Try to get emotional support where you can, for YOUR choices (and you chose a GD forum, I wish people would respect that!), and in this day and age, that may mean online or on the phone. There often isn't a magical solution, or one we'd be more comfortable with. Often we know in our hearts that we have to bite the bullet in some way and just need to get it out, hear that it's normal, and bite on that damned bullet. It took me a long time to be able to say AND apply all that in my life - and to be honest, it was one of the hardest things I ever did.


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## Way Up North (Sep 15, 2007)

I have been reading with interest, too.
My dd is 2.5 and has been waking up tantruming.
This morning she flipped because I wiped her nose and she wanted her 'snot back in my nose'.
I will try protein, for sure.
I appreciate all of the wise words and the reminders about connection. I don' know what this is about (her molars are all through, we have all been sick, but mostly better now etc.) but she is having trouble with her emotions whatever it is.
We don't have a new sibling here, and no big changes, so there is certainly part of it that is age/ development related, I would think.

L


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shane* 
As it turns out, gentle disipline isn't for us.

There is a huge range of GD! I don't do the stuff that you talk about in your post (spend all day trying to make things fun so ds isn't whining/tantrumming). Playful parenting is definitely not my thing.
I insist on time to get my stuff done. And imo I'm very GD.







I insist on socially acceptable behavior, keeping in mind what's developmentally appropriate, what's going on in ds's life, and how he is in general. I personally don't punish, but I find that I'm more strict on some things than are some parents who do punish. Those things tend to be things that I need to be happy in my home.

I don't think that one can totally write off GD as "not for us"- because there are so so so many tools you can have in your toolbox that ARE GD. Some require a paradigm shift, sure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
Today, I just kind of shut down. I don't know if this was anti-GD of me or not - but after a week of crying kicked up a notch - I just was losing it. DS started crying again about 5 min after we woke up. I just did what I needed to do. I made breakfast, took care of the baby, offered to brush his teeth, make breakfast for him - but he just wanted to cry. I told him I needed to get some things done. He cried, I just kept doing what I needed... normally I sit with him for hours on end while he cries and in his wanting to hug me, squirms around the whole time hurting me quite a lot.

I personally don't see a problem with what you did. There's nothing wrong with a healthy amount of "making mama happy" (you know, "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" something like that). And I know that it wasn't just because that's what you felt like doing, I'm not trying to downplay it into that.
I can totally see myself doing that in response to a long lasting tantrum. Saying "I'm here. If you need me, let me know. I'm going to be doing x in the meantime." That I would feel just fine about. I sincerely doubt I'd be able to go a day while holding ds for hours during tantrumming/whining/crying. I would just get mean (and then be unGD). So I don't think that would even be an option here.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I really don't think that holding your ds for hours on end is actually helping him out at all. It's been a while, right? I don't think that's the solution. Not to say just ignore it and make him fix it himself. But look for the cause and focus on that, rather than putting a bandaid on it to make it better temporarily. And, I wonder if he feels that he can't deal with his own disappointments/feelings?
So, if you think its that he needs more time with you, spend more happy time with him. That seems to "count" more for kids, ime. Though from what I've read here, food sensitivities don't seem to be out of the question.

Are you reacting in a way that's telling your ds that his emotions are scary/too much for you to handle or that you will do anything to "fix" them? I read something about that in Becoming the Parent You Want To Be. If kids see that their emotions are scary for YOU, they become scary for the kids.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Calm I feel very strongly as well about children being people too. I keep trying to put myself in his shoes and see what I would want if I were him. I suppose it just makes it harder to empathize when it's gone on for so long. Not that I don't empathize, but I'm worn out too. Friends can complain about their troubles but you always get a break from that... and more than that, you can communicate with them and get logical responses (sometimes) back. DS is obviously too young to be capable... but it makes it harder to deal with.
But I am going to try to feel him out more emotionally, maybe my body language/tone of voice is sending a different message than what I want him to get. I know I feel annoyed so maybe I am sending out that kind of vibe... well not maybe, most likely








When you said he may not even be at the grieving point, that kind of clicked with me. I think DS is still in the mode of trying to be number one. The more I think about it, I feel like I'm not helping him - because I'm trying to overcompensate at times, leave my newborn aside but at the same time I feel annoyed and resentful about it. I think he needs to know I love him and I will always love him but that DD has value as well in this family, and just because he cries doesn't mean I can neglect her.
DS gave up on the sling a while ago, but I will try again.. maybe he is interested in it again.

Deva33mommy, I guess I think it might be anti-GD because I feel annoyed while doing it. A good friend of mine who is also into GD told me that you do need to have your boundaries, but you must also set those boundaries while setting your emotions aside. There shouldn't be anger, etc attached to those boundaries.
I'm having a hard time not being annoyed. It makes me feel like I'm almost ignoring him. I do keep talking to him, I don't ever punish him for crying etc though.
I also don't think holding him for hours is going to help him either. I do think I know what the problem is, exactly what Pat and other pp's had mentioned... I think he's sad that he has to share momma. But in response to that I have to tried to make a point of making more time for him, cuddling with him more etc. BUT I only have so much of me to go around... esp with my DH working so much these days.
How do I help him if he feels like he can't handle his own feelings? Can I? I do think at times I react in a way that may make him feel like I cant handle his emotions... I mean I have cried multiple times. It's an adjustment for me too







I am trying more and more to be a pillar he can lean on and not react to his emotions negatively.
I called a mommy's helper - she can come two days a week... that's a start







OT but does $10 an hour sound right?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
I called a mommy's helper - she can come two days a week... that's a start







OT but does $10 an hour sound right?

I don't know where you are but that sounds exorbitant for a mother's helper to me! I had a school age girl 12-16 year olds who I paid $4-6/hr to come play while I was home, up until '06 when she went to college. I paid $7/hr when she babysat alone during the day for 2-3 hours.

It took about 8+ visits before ds would ask her for things he needed, occasionally. At first, it seemed like I was paying her to chat with ME!! LOL But, having her come and just casually become familiar with our family, our parenting philosophy and observing us interact, was worth it. She became such a resource. But, ds wasn't attached to her at first at all. They love each other now.







He'd be standing at the door waiting for her to arrive! And they'd play and play.

Pat


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
I guess I think it might be anti-GD because I feel annoyed while doing it. A good friend of mine who is also into GD told me that you do need to have your boundaries, but you must also set those boundaries while setting your emotions aside. There shouldn't be anger, etc attached to those boundaries.
I'm having a hard time not being annoyed. It makes me feel like I'm almost ignoring him. I do keep talking to him, I don't ever punish him for crying etc though.

You know, I don't think it's possible to be a parent...a human being....without feeling annoyed at least some of the time. Every single one of us has encountered behavior from our children that we feel annoyed about. And it's not possible to completely set aside your emotions. I've found that it's enough to set my feelings aside just enough (not ignoring them, just acknowledging that this is how I feel and that's okay, but I don't have to get all wrapped up in them) to handle a situation calmly. Not handle it in a sing-songy, joyful, blissed-out, I'm-not-bothered-by-anything way...just calmly enough.

It really is okay to feel annoyed. And it's okay to say to your child, so that they know what you're feeling and they don't have to take it personally, "know what? I feel really frustrated and overwhelmed right now. Things are just not going my way."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
How do I help him if he feels like he can't handle his own feelings? Can I? I do think at times I react in a way that may make him feel like I cant handle his emotions... I mean I have cried multiple times. It's an adjustment for me too







I am trying more and more to be a pillar he can lean on and not react to his emotions negatively.

I think that when our little ones can't handle their own feelings, what we can do is give them words for their feelings, and give them support (and guidance, if they're calm enough to accept it). What we can't do is always fix it for them, always make them feel better.

And I think it's totally okay for our kids to sometimes see us cry. Goodness knows I've cried many times in front of my kids over the years. But yes, sometimes that can feel overwhelming to a child. It can be overwhelming to see that here you are, this little person, and the things you do have so much power over the very people you're turning to and expect to be your rock. For me, staying calm and being that rock is easier when I'm not taking my kids' behavior so personally and when I'm not pressuring myself to be the perfect mom of perfect kids.

I don't know if this will help, and it's similar to what others have posted before, but when my dd was 7 (about a year ago) she was having these out of control rages. They'd last an hour or more, and she was really aggressive during them. And I would get so frustrated, so angry, so scared (I mean, it's scary to see your kid do this, and then you wonder-what if she keeps doing this? what if this is a sign of major problems in the future? what if she gets bigger and still does this and I have to someday call 911?). I eventually found that it was really important to not get engaged in that whole line of thought that begins with "what if?" That alone, refraining from panicking about what all this might mean for the future, helped enormously. The other thing that helped was to just be present, to be there quietly, keeping everyone safe but not trying to fix or stop it. Just empathizing with my kid, who obviously was hurting and having a very hard time regulating her emotions and behavior. (I couldn't do that all day, and there have been many times when I've just had to go about my day, inviting my child to join me, letting my child know I'm there for her and I empathize.) And finally, it was really important to take care of myself and to have someone to talk to about it all. Someone who would really listen and empathize. Regularly. In order for us to parent our kids, we need to take care of ourselves. We can't keep giving if we're depleted ourselves.


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## dflanag2 (Oct 4, 2005)

Just putting in my two cents about acceptance: I have noticed that when I relax and just *accept* DS's behavior, the tension decreases, and he usually moves past the situation. It's like he needs my nonverbal 'permission' to be whereever he needs to be in order to move past developmental milestones. Sometimes after I have accepted his behavior, I can see that he is looking for me to be disturbed or annoyed by whatever he is doing, and he loses interest in doing it when I no longer react.

Now if only I could control better what annoys me!

-dflanag2


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shane* 
Ok, I've waited a few days to post. And nobody else seems to be offering any gentle discipline advice. So let me just tell you my personal experience. My babies are 34 mos and 20 mos. We tried the gentle discipline. I even posted some techniques earlier on this thread that we used to use. (Not to say that we don't still do fun things throughout the day to change it up a bit) It just seemed like as time went on ds got worse, expecting me to make things fun for HIM at all times. And there is a difference between not being able to express a need and just being down right whinny and fit throwing. I felt like he wasn't learning how to be happy unless I was doing something for him. Never mind the house not getting clean, dinners weren't getting made, lunches were something thrown together. (that's hard to do on a tight budget) As it turns out, gentle disipline isn't for us. After constantly being impressed by my sister's children and their impecible manners and especially joyful personalities & rarely ever whining (her children are ages 10, 8, 6, 3, & 20mos) I decided to try the parenting method that she uses. If you are interested PM me. Please no one scold me for posting this. I just don't see anyone else offering any help, and trust me, I've spent many a day praying for the next nap. I don't do that anymore, and just want to offer any help I can for a fellow worn out momma.

Your tone in this post really bothers me. You say this as though your DS is being selfish and trying to run you ragged. He's a baby! He doesn't understand that you need to do dishes or the laundry or make a meal. And GD may or may not "be for you" but this is not the place to advocate anything other than a GD approach.

To the OP: I totally feel you. DS is nearly 2 and DD is 7 weeks. He was very whiny and I hardly had a free hand to console him. So, I just incorporated him into everything I could possibly think of. "Honey, can you bring mommy a diaper?" "Do you want to help with your sister's bath?" etc. etc. Now he's mommy's big helper and he no longer seems to resent his sister.
Giving him the "job" of protecting a guiding his younger sister and helping her lets him know that he's still just as important to me and our family as a whole as he was before DD was born.
Of course, we still have our days but he's only 2 so that's to be expected. I don't know if any of that helps but just wanted to let you know that I can commiserate.


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

aaronsmom said:


> Your tone in this post really bothers me. You say this as though your DS is being selfish and trying to run you ragged. He's a baby! He doesn't understand that you need to do dishes or the laundry or make a meal. And GD may or may not "be for you" but this is not the place to advocate anything other than a GD approach.
> 
> Ok, taking a little abuse from a couple of posters here and I just want to say that there are several posters here who have posted things that sound as though they are "run ragged". But it's quite possible you are reading into to it a bit too much. My point was to get someone to post some advice to help these women out. And look, it worked! Yay! I got your attention. Thank you for helping out some women who were already asking for help. As you can see I offered plenty before posting that last post you so graciously copied and translated. I've done plenty of GD advocating on this thread. I believe it's a great method for a lot of people, so please keep your GD advice coming. Maybe I'll take some more of it too. Perhaps that's why I've still been reading this thread.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

One thing that occurred to me after reading (most of) this thread is that sometimes a child's needs just really outstrip what a mama can give, especially if she WOH and has another little one to care for. And kiddos are very perceptive, even if unable to articulate wants and needs. Then when we try to help them and they can feel our exhaustion and frustration they can begin to feel *really* out of sorts, which leads to mama feeling powerless and, well, SWIM? So I think going about your day, while regularly checking in with DS is a fine plan. You didn't abandon him, emotionally or otherwise. And it sounds like a little break from the cycle really helped, yay! Though I certainly don't advocate CIO, I do recognize that there are times when a baby is just going to cry. Being upset about it not only doesn't help, it likely adds to the babe's distress. So good for you mama, it sounds like even though it didn't feel ideal to you, you handled it just fine


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

My point was to get someone to post some advice to help these women out. And look, it worked! Yay! I got your attention. Thank you for helping out some women who were already asking for help.
Shane, you are kidding, right? You weren't just being deliberately manipulative, were you? As I'd count that as decidedly _*un*_helpful for any mama here, at any time.

On page one alone (which on my settings is 20 posts) I found four posts with GD in them (my definition, which is more strictly GENTLE, which is not leaving the child):

UUmom Allgirls WUWei macky'smama

That's four on the first page alone. What exactly were you hoping for in terms of advice, because I think we all do our best with advice for situations and people we have essentially no idea about.

I've always disliked the title of this forum personally, as I don't think there is any place for discipline in little children. The the guts and origin of discipline is that it comes from within, it isn't something you can "give" someone else, and you certainly can't force it on anyone. I think it misleads the advice given on this board as a whole. Gentle _Guidance_ is how I translate the title it in my head.


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## aschmied (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 









Today, DH was home so I was able to give DD to him for a while, while I had some one on one time with DS. I think he really is craving some more cuddling and having me all to himself. He dealt very well with the transition initially so I think maybe I took that for granted. He's still crying a lot, but as we were playing I could really see how happy he was. I just am not sure how to do that normally on a day to day to basis because DH is not really home and able to help. DD is pretty relaxed but she does need me to hold her in the sling but that prevents me from being able to do some things he likes, like wrestling, really tight cuddles etc. Guess I'll have to think of some ideas.

Hmm, does he like reading? I find that this can be some good snuggle time with my 3 yo. Settle the baby next to my leg, or held on one leg if a little fussier, DD between my legs (her favorite spot for reading) and snuggle and read. A previous poster suggested painting together and laundry ball (I'll be trying that one myself!) which can be done with a slung baby. Maybe kicking a ball around?

Oh, and I agree with all the others not to feel guilty. I had to do it today too. What I said was "Lovey, you might not want dinner, but Daddy and I still need dinner. I need to make it." Tonight I was lucky and talked her into coloring, but dinner needs to be made (f. ex.) whether she wants me to or not....


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Just all this support alone is making things better. I have no problem with kids knowing that adults have needs and can cry as well too... but I do think it had gotten to a point of him feeling fearful - he didn't feel secure with me anymore. So I'm really trying to hold back tears and breathe.
I keep trying to tell myself everyday that it's not something I can control. And I guess I believe that too - but my fear is what I may do wrong in the meantime. I don't want to end up disconnected from him or make him feel insecure etc. So I feel like I'm walking this fine line of balancing my needs and his. I'm trying to make him feel secure and know that I love him no matter what, but I feel that my annoyance or anger is showing through. I think that is causing him to feel insecure about his feelings and how I feel about him.
Why do I feel angry? I don't know exactly but I'm ashamed to say that I get thoughts in my head like, "Just grow up already!". He was always spirited and high needs, even as a newborn. DD came and she was a completely different baby. I know in my head I'm constantly comparing the two. I get angry that he still demands so much from me while DD is so calm and relaxed. Then I get angry with myself for feeling this way.
Regardless, I'm sure he's sensing all of this from me.
I have tried to involve him from day one with DD. He loves her to death, but most of the time, when I cheerily say to him, "Oh it's time to change her diaper, you wanna help?" he gets really passive aggressive about it. It's like he perceives I'm trying to distract him from something and he won't have it







I have to say, kids are so darn intuitive!


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
Why do I feel angry? I don't know exactly but I'm ashamed to say that I get thoughts in my head like, "Just grow up already!". He was always spirited and high needs, even as a newborn. DD came and she was a completely different baby. I know in my head I'm constantly comparing the two. I get angry that he still demands so much from me while DD is so calm and relaxed. Then I get angry with myself for feeling this way. Regardless, I'm sure he's sensing all of this from me.

You know, I've been thinking about stuff like this lately too. My firstborn is spirited/high needs and second born soooo calm. I have always struggled to relate to my firstborn in a more calm loving way....and have found it so much easier to relate that way to my second born. Not because I don't love my firstborn - I do so much, I think she's amazing, so bright, beautiful, hilarious, lovely, smart, energetic, etc. But she and I trigger each other when we're angry and it ain't pretty. Anyway, I digress.

The reason I'm saying all this is because lately I have decided to cut myself some slack and give myself and her the space to simply have the relationship we have. There are some things we're really good on (we like to do crafts together, cook together, do dishes, read, she loves to be my helper) but I suck at and have little patience for imaginative play that she likes (I can only play Doctor so many times before my brains bleed out of my ears!








). By being honest and true with her, allowing both of us to feel our feelings, I am starting to get more insight into how to relate to her in a way that works for us both.

I'm trying to say that instead of *trying* to change what is, I'm accepting it, and am gaining new insights on ways we can connect more lovingly in a way that is real to us both.

Does that make sense? Sorry, I'm tired.







I hope this gives some help and insight to you. It's just so hard to struggle against yourself, it's tiring. I know that. Peace.


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## chaimom (Aug 22, 2007)

Forgive me if this comment has already been made, as I haven't read every single posting-- but it just does not seem normal to me that your child is constantly crying. My dd often gets a nap "hangover" and is grouchy/crying for about half an hour after waking, and even did that occassionally in the morning between ages 12 & 24 months, but I've never known a child to cry constantly. Have you seen the pediatrician? Is he in pain? Does he have stomach trouble? An ear ache? Is there something going on with his eyes to make the light bother him? Allergies? Does motrin help? Does he have some kind of injury/sensitivity? I don't think kids cry for no reason. I hope you can find an answer.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately for some reason, and while many people seem to feel the only GD response is to sit with him for hours if necessary, this does not seem to be eleviating his distress? This assumes that what he wants/needs is to be sat with by his mother. Maybe that's not what he needs. Maybe he needs you to show him how to go about your day and be happy? (Which I know seems impossible with a seemingly unhappy child and an infant to care for.)

I mean 3 months of crying for hours at a time does not seem normal. I understand having some emotional response to a sibling. But so much crying seems odd. I'm just wondering if his upset is making you upset, which is saying to him that there really is something to be upset about. And now you expect him to be upset and it's like an emotional pattern?

I'm not suggesting you ignore him. But could you put on some happy music and go about your day doing fun things he can participate in and encourage him to do so, but not coerce and not be drawn into his upset?


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaimom* 
Forgive me if this comment has already been made, as I haven't read every single posting-- but it just does not seem normal to me that your child is constantly crying. My dd often gets a nap "hangover" and is grouchy/crying for about half an hour after waking, and even did that occassionally in the morning between ages 12 & 24 months, but I've never known a child to cry constantly. Have you seen the pediatrician? Is he in pain? Does he have stomach trouble? An ear ache? Is there something going on with his eyes to make the light bother him? Allergies? Does motrin help? Does he have some kind of injury/sensitivity? I don't think kids cry for no reason. I hope you can find an answer.

nak
DS is like night and day when he's home vs. outside. No one believes me when i tell them how much he cries/whines at home. its not always bawling... but its whimpering, whining, and crying. the other day when i reposted on this thread it was all out crying. but he's able to tell me if something hurts... so its not that...
allergies.. maybe... i will talk to his ped abt that.
but like i said, when we are anywhere but home... he's happy as a clam, which leads me to believe its all emotional.
I do have a lot of things that I know he loves to do at home... but he just wants to be out all the time. I go out as much as possible but it can't be 24 hours a day ykwim?

Quote:

You know, I've been thinking about stuff like this lately too. My firstborn is spirited/high needs and second born soooo calm. I have always struggled to relate to my firstborn in a more calm loving way....and have found it so much easier to relate that way to my second born. Not because I don't love my firstborn - I do so much, I think she's amazing, so bright, beautiful, hilarious, lovely, smart, energetic, etc. But she and I trigger each other when we're angry and it ain't pretty. Anyway, I digress.
Emese'smom, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for this. Everything you said made so much sense to me. I think I feel guilty that me and DS clash so much and I feel like mine and DD's personalities go better together... but it makes me feel so guilty and I think I get into a never-ending cycle of guilt, anxiety, anger and frustration.
You're right, I need to accept that we are two different people and make the best of that. Man, I feel so happy after reading that. I think it was something I didn't want to admit I was feeling.

Quote:

I mean 3 months of crying for hours at a time does not seem normal. I understand having some emotional response to a sibling. But so much crying seems odd. I'm just wondering if his upset is making you upset, which is saying to him that there really is something to be upset about. And now you expect him to be upset and it's like an emotional pattern?
After reading what Emese'smom wrote I think we are in a constant cycle. I have, more out of just need to breathe, started trying to act really happy and do fun things and hope he'll come and join in. I have to say it has been working a bit. These past 3, 4 days it feels like the sky is clearing a bit.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

msiddiqi, my oldest only had behavioral issues at home. For years, she'd only have tantrums at home, only cry/whine/yell at home, only [insert difficult behavior here] at home. And often she'd cry or tantrum for ages over mysterious things I could never quite figure out. People who did not live with us knew a totally different child. At preschool she was gentle, kind, buddha-like according to her teacher. At home, she was miserable. It was...unsettling. I thought for the longest time that because she was only like this at home, it was all my fault. I know now that it wasn't.

And I agree with all that Emese'smom wrote. My oldest and I are not a perfect match. It's just not always easy, and has never been easy, to respond to her in a loving, calm, compassionate way. It's not easy for me to relate to her, or to understand her. With my other kids, it seems so incredibly easy in comparison. They cry, and either I know why, I can figure out why, or they can tell me why. They aren't as much of a mystery. I generally know how to parent them, whereas it took me ages to figure out how to parent my oldest (and I'm still having to work very, very hard at that and still making mistakes). My oldest tends to react in ways that have often left me feeling as though she won't let me help her. It's really hard.

There have been times when I've thought that life would be so much easier without dd, that it would be so much easier just to have my younger two. Or that it was a mistake to have more children, that dd would be better served by being an only child and her siblings are being shortchanged due to her needs. I love her to pieces and would not really want to live without her, it's just that at times it has been so very hard to be her parent. Sometimes it's really hard to give her what she needs, because I'm just drained--she needs _so much_. I started out wanting to homeschool, but dd and I just are not cut out to be around each other all day every day. I can't figure out if we're very different or very similar, whatever it is we just aren't the epitome of "goodness of fit" between parent and child. When we aren't together all day every day we get along better, I am a better parent, and we have a healthier relationship. And it's not just that dd and I clash, but that the reality of being her parent is not at all what I had once imagined parenting would be. And that's hard too, and it has been important to separate out my feelings about how things are going, about how life is, about my child's behavior or emotions--so that I'm not letting my own emotions color how I perceive her, so that I'm seeing her more clearly and not letting my perceptions be clouded by my sadness or fears or frustration or whatever.

And it's hard but it does help to let their emotions be theirs. To let them have them, and not to try and fix them always. To listen and validate, and then move on while letting them know you're available. It's like with my dd's anxiety. Used to be she could get anxious about a small paper cut, and just cry as if she were dying. And if we kept soothing her, and getting tense about her crying, and reassuring her that she was okay, and trying to get her to stop crying (kind of owning those feelings ourselves, and trying to fix it for her), that fed her anxiety and made it bigger and stronger. We had to stop reacting strongly like that and start being a lot more casual about it: taking a quick look and saying "oh, yeah, paper cuts sting. You know where the band-aids are if you need one" then going about our business. When we started being more casual, sending the message that we cared but that we weren't anxious, her anxiety began to diminish. It's similar with the rest of her emotions. The more strongly we react, the more she cries/yells/complains and the more negative and anxious she is.

eta What I wanted to say and totally didn't, between having the remnants of the flu and going back and forth between posting and helping kids, is that things around here go a lot more smoothly when I am not expecting or wishing for dd to be anyone other than exactly who she is right now. Only when I accept the reality of her as she actually is can we move forward. Otherwise we're just stuck. And, too, I need to accept who I am so that I can grow as a parent.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *msiddiqi* 
DD is 2mo. I'm not getting enough sleep but I am taking CLO and Natural Calm. I definitely am not getting enough time to myself but now that DH is working two jobs, I'm not really sure how I can.
I will try to talk to him about the new baby again. Maybe he's feeling insecure. I am really trying to give him a lot of attention, but I don't want to neglect DD either.

Do you wear your baby in a sling? I have found on the days when my DD is especially needy, crying, whining, etc., and I'm feeling overwhelmed, and feeling like DS isn't getting enough of me (or at least this is what I'm worrying about), I put DS in a sling. Then, I can continue doing what I'm doing - either with DD if she needs/wants me, or just household stuff - and DS is happy & content - and right up against me.

I feel like it improves my mood just having baby on me anyhow.

Hugs mama, I've been there.


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

Emese'sMom & Sledge,

I'm the oldest of 6. I read your posts and think to myself, I would imagine that my mom probably would have or did describe my relationship with her like this. So when my daddy wasn't at work I was with him 24/7. For me, I can honestly say, that all of the years I can remember it was about control. I knew I could control her and her emotions. And I did. My dad was totally different. He would never allow me to whine/cry, and I prefered to be with him, for some reason.

So, my question for all the other mommas is this:
How do you use GD to control a child who has control issues?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shane* 
How do you use GD to control a child who has control issues?

First of all, personally I don't think children have "control issues." Yes, children want autonomy-some more than others. They also want (and deserve) to be respected and heard and valued. And when they have needs, they try to get them met. Many kids (like many adults) seek control in an attempt to feel safe, secure, autonomous, whatever. They may seek control in attempts to get their needs met (just as many adults do). Some kids may be more persistent or forceful than others in seeking control as a means of meeting needs. But I don't think any kid just has "control issues" in the absence of real reasons for seeking control. Seeking control is one way of trying to cope.

Secondly, I think the last way to work with a person who seeks control is to try to exert more control over them than they seem to seek to have over you. That's just a power struggle.

And thirdly, I don't think GD is at all about controlling children. It's about guiding them and teaching them, keeping them safe, helping them grow. It isn't, in my book, at all about controlling them. It's about gradually helping them learn the skills to regulate their own behavior, gradually helping them achieve self-discipline. Part of doing this is to address the _reasons_ for their behavior, rather than addressing only the behavior itself.

And finally, IMO we can't ever actually control another person. The only person we have control over is ourselves. This means, too, that our children do not control us or our emotions either. We are each responsible for our own actions and feelings, for our own responses to people or events.

I think if you have a child who you think has "control issues," a good place to start is to question whether or not your understanding of your child's behavior is accurate. It's a good idea to think about whether there might be some other way of understanding the reason for your child's behavior. And it's a good idea to see if there are ways you can work _with_ your child to improve things, meeting your child where he or she is and taking it from there. It is possible to do this, and there are many books and tools out there to help. _Raising Your Spirited Child_ is a great book, as are _The Highly Sensitive Child_; _The Explosive Child_; _Kids, Parents and Power Struggles_; _Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline_. In cases of special needs, as our child has, there are professionals who can help (as we have sought). Professional help can also benefit any parent who is finding parenting to be difficult for any number of reasons. There are just so many resources.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I also agree that slinging the littlest one is the best idea. I'd do that anyway, regardless of how stretched I was simply cos it is an innate expectation of a baby to be against the mama's body. Then you can deal with your son without feeling you are neglecting the baby. Great post, KSMama.

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And finally, IMO we can't ever actually control another person. The only person we have control over is ourselves. This means, too, that our children do not control us or our emotions either. We are each responsible for our own actions and feelings, for our own responses to people or events.
Well said! Most of my parenting dramas are solved as soon as I control _myself_, or change _myself_.

Telling DD how to feel, what to say, what mood she's supposed to be in or in any way "controlling" her as a person is just unfathomable in my mind. She is who she is, and that includes irritatingly stubborn and argumentative but so what? I'm no freakin' saint so who am I to dictate? Life teaches her the limits much more than I ever could. I often see parents telling their child to "calm down" or "stop crying" as though that is in ANY way helpful. Does that work when someone says it to you? If it does, can you send them to my place cos it surely doesn't work for anyone I know, myself included. It would be great if we all had that kind of Zen self control, but most of us don't.

So, just like you would with someone you respected, such as your partner (hopefully







) or best friend, the first thing you'd do if they're wiggin' out is ask questions, hug, or best of all, STFU and just be there! Trying to control them is not going to help them, it will only teach them they aren't safe to be real around you and will take their deeper needs elsewhere.

Same is true for our children.

If we consistently insist they be _other_ than what they choose to be on any day, they will comply. We all have to admit it often "works", (that is, authoritative parenting) and yippee for that - NOT. All that results in is what the western world is full of - emotionally repressed, confused and frustrated people who are out for "me me me" and stuck firmly in an immature frame of mind as they weren't allowed to move through immature stages with a firm and loving presence. No, most of us were "controlled" so that mama and papa could read the paper in peace or have Stepford kids the Joneses would be so envious of they'd withdraw from their own kids even stronger to get that kind of sick result.

And this control exerted over our people due to the latest child psychologists leanings certainly didn't result in a culture full of people with good self-control, now did it?

Children are not "different" and suddenly as an adult become like us. They are exactly like us right now. What motivates them is what motivates us. And like us, they don't just flip out for no reason. They don't take on a less than desirable behaviour for weeks or months on end just to piss mum off or keep her in tow. They can need more sleep (like us), they can need more nutrients (like us: much more common than allergies is lack of complete nutrient intake, esp zinc which causes massive mood shifts), there are minor and major emotional stresses - there is an endless list of why a _*person*_ (not just a child) is a bit "off".

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For me, I can honestly say, that all of the years I can remember it was about control. I knew I could control her and her emotions. And I did.
Shane, perhaps your memory of how things were for you is clouding what you think _another_ child might want, including your own. What motivates you won't necessarily motivate another. If you are a controlling sort, even when you were a child, perhaps that is why you believe another would be doing that. Looking at why you felt that way might help you unearth why your child would feel that way (if they do, as mentioned it may just be projection and inaccurate). Often we parent how we were parented, and if you felt strong needs to control your surroundings, it may be true that is how your own child feels (and it may not). Changing that familial pattern is rewarded greatly in all families that do it. What's that saying?,...if we always do what we've always done, we'll always be where we are.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I also can't recommend enough this book:

Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. It starts where infant attachment parenting books leave off. The attachment parenting book for the older set.







It outlines loving and connected parenting that results in a beautifully functioning family full of well functioning people.


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## msiddiqi (Apr 28, 2005)

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Originally Posted by *Calm* 
I also agree that slinging the littlest one is the best idea. I'd do that anyway, regardless of how stretched I was simply cos it is an innate expectation of a baby to be against the mama's body. Then you can deal with your son without feeling you are neglecting the baby. Great post, KSMama.

I do wear her in a sling, she's just getting to the age where she wants to play and have some one on one time where I can talk to her etc. She barely gets that. When I mean neglect, I don't mean she's in a corner crying or something. She is always with me unless she's sleeping or I have to put her down for a couple minutes.

sledg, I am also really into homeschooling but everything you said in your post really resonates with how I feel. I know I need some time away from him. It's sometimes good for both of us to miss each other. It's the only thing that holds me back from homeschooling. So far we are going ahead with it though, I'm hoping having a mother's helper will make things a little easier.

The rest of the posts are too deep for my mind to process right now so I will read them later


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## Jannah6 (Aug 29, 2007)

I'm going through the whole crying & whining phase with 3 3/4 DD. It started when I was preggo with my last baby and it's only gotten worse. She has regressed and I know it's because she is jealous. I've noticed that she isn't as focused on DS if my other DC are around. I know that she needs playmates since my other DC are in school. I'm looking into finding Muslimah Mamas in my area or maybe babsitting another 3 year old for extra $ as well as a playmate for DD.

Perhaps you may want to find a mothers group, as an outlet for both of you







.


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## Shane (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:

Telling DD how to feel, what to say, what mood she's supposed to be in or in any way "controlling" her as a person is just unfathomable in my mind. She is who she is, and that includes irritatingly stubborn and argumentative but so what? I'm no freakin' saint so who am I to dictate?
Her parent. That's who you are. If we aren't supposed to teach our kids to how to use their energy then what's the point of parenting?

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Life teaches her the limits much more than I ever could.
Life is full of people. People who will teach her the limits. Why wouldn't you want that to be you instead of people who don't necessarily care about her or her well being? IMO this sets her up for a lot of heartache in the future.

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the first thing you'd do if they're wiggin' out is ask questions, hug,
Well, we agree about that. But your answer stops here. (excluding STFU) Assuming you've asked questions, hugged, and maybe even given some kind words of reassurance what is the 2nd thing you'd do to stop someone from crying for 6 hours? OP already said they do those things. Give some real advice, here. You're just gonna hold them and let them cry all day? What about the other members of your family who need your attention? When does the crier have to be taught how to control their emotions so that others can share some of Momma too? Never? That hardly seems fair. What if you have 3 or 4 that want you to hold them for 6 or more hours while they cry and don't have an explaination for why?

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All that results in is what the western world is full of - emotionally repressed, confused and frustrated people who are out for "me me me"
We disagree here. I think there isn't enough emotional repression in this western world anymore and that has resulted in the "me me me" attitude. This country was a lot friendlier and more pleasant when people didn't think it was ok to act upon every emotional whim that they have. I will raise children who put other's feelings ahead of their own, because to allow them to think it's ok to do what ever they want whenever they want without consideration of others is just wrong, and a disservice to them. Because "life" will not allow them to always get what they want when they want it, and I'd rather them learn that from me first, through disipline.

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Often we parent how we were parented, and if you felt strong needs to control your surroundings, it may be true that is how your own child feels (and it may not).
I had both parents doing two different disipline styles. My mother was more GD and my father was not. My mother was more of the mind of "they are who they are, maybe it's a phase and they'll grow out of it." (which really isn't GD, though. That's more like no disipline at all) She chose to not take control, so I took control. The world ("life") is full of people who are looking for people who don't have control. Most of these people are conartists looking for a weakling to take control of. I choose my style based on experience, yes. My children haven't shown any of these traits because I am always in control of my own emotions, where my mother was not in control of her emotions.

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And finally, IMO we can't ever actually control another person. The only person we have control over is ourselves. This means, too, that our children do not control us or our emotions either. We are each responsible for our own actions and feelings, for our own responses to people or events.
ITA. My job is not to control my child's emotions. It is to teach them to control their own emotions, through consistent disipline and especially example. To always remain calm, never yelling, never allowing their all day crying to persuade you to cry also. Easier said than done, I know. But once you get the hang of it, it's pretty darn easy to keep up. I think it's perfectly fine to say, you're gonna sit here till you can calm down. When you can put on your happy face then you can get up and join the rest of us.

Not all of us can afford a mother's helper, or to pay for therapist sessions, or live close enough to others who are willing to help. Not all of us have a significant other to take up the slack. But we all have inside of us the ability to do this. To be a good parent. Even if we can't spend money on a book some other "expert parent" wrote we can be good parents. "Ask and it shall be given unto you. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door shall be open unto you." Wanting to be a good parent is enough. Follow your heart, and pray. Stop asking everyone else, and ask God. Even if you don't believe he exists, just do it and see what happens.


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