# Friend lacks basic concept of child safety - WWYD?



## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

I have this new friend, we met through a local green organization and really get on in many ways. I have known her for around four months now, and she has a three year old son and a newborn. I am not of the judgy type, but I've been really unpleasantly surprised by her total lack of concern for child safety... TWICE! She is the same with her own kids, but there were two incidents with my kids that really had me worried.

1) We went to a national park together. It is just nature, including a lake, and there is a restaurant and some kids' play areas. She asked me to hold her newborn for a while, and I said, "OK, if you watch my one year old!". She said, fine, and I held the newborn for about 10 seconds before realizing my one year old son was GONE!

I asked her where he was and she said "I dunno" in a relaxed way. Hey, we're in a great big park, lots of people about, a lake right by, and you said you'd watch him! I quickly hand her back her newborn and go look for my son. I can't see him anywhere. After I scream his name, he comes running to me. Turns out he was watching some pensioners play bridge. I was SO scared. When I said something to her about it, she laughed it off.

2) After that incident, I decided that we could stay friends, but I would never, ever let her watch my kids again, even for a second. Last week we (me and two kids) went to her house for a playdate. They have a small apartment, on the third floor. I am sitting in the living room with this woman, drinking coffee, when I hear her son's voice with some echo. Turns out he'd opened the front door, and had gone outside. Again, he's three, and there was an open window in the hallway and three huge flights of stairs. I panicked and she said "Oh, he does that all the time!".

So I asked her to lock the door, and her husband replied, "Oh, I got it, I will lock the door and stay right by it so nobody can try and open it." With that thought, I continued drinking coffee. A few minutes later, I hear her son talking, again, with an echo. The husband had gone somewhere else, never locked the door AND my one year old was nowhere to be seen. I screamed his name, with no result. At this point I was shouting at the husband while looking for my baby. In the end, I found him just hiding behind the open front door, inside the apartment. Both husband and wife reacted like I was some crazy, overprotective mom.

I could kick myself for trusting this guy to stay by the door and lock it, after what happened at the national park. I'm still feeling guilty, because in a way, I could have seen that coming. I told him I was REALLY angry for not looking after the kids' basic safety after he had explicitly told me he would do so. He laughed my comments off.

I have seen them do similar things with their kids on at least a dozen occasions, and they simply do not care. What would you do? Would you do anything about it? I will see them again at the meetings of the group we both belong to, but other than that I don't think I want to continue the friendship. Do you think I am overreacting?


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

In a nutshell, your kids are your responsibility, their kids are their responsibility, period. I have very loose "safety standards" for my kids, because I have been with them 24/7 since the day they were born, and I know exactly what they will do in terms of safe/unsafe behavior. I know when I need to watch them closely and when I don't, and it drives me a little up the wall when people assume I'm being negligent when my son is climbing something that another parent deems unsafe. It might be unsafe for another kid, but other kids are not my job, and it IS safe for my child, so I let him/them do whatever they like within the realm of safety FOR THEM.

I have discovered that I have a much wider range of what I consider safe for children than most anyone else I know. I also know that sometimes people forget that what is safe for a 3 y.o. who lives in a home with potential dangers is not necessarily safe for the visiting 1 y.o., or even multiple kids, who will sometimes devise crazy plans in a group, or encourage each other to do unsafe things. Hold her newborn, but know that you still need to keep an eye on your baby, and don't be afraid to just hand her baby back if your child needs you/needs following/etc.

So yes, I would watch my kids carefully around this family, but I certainly wouldn't write off a friendship with them -- pretty soon your kids will be a little older and the safety issues won't be a big deal, and they may turn out to be great friends.


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## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

No, you aren't overreacting. I wouldn't have playdates with her anymore.

My BFF got CPS called on her once by a neighbor when her DD (2-3 at the time) got out of the house and was found walking down their suburban street. Just something to think about. That (and worse) could happen to your friend if she isn't more careful.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

You're not overreacting. Kids do fall out of windows, get lost in the woods at national parks, etc. It happens to parents who honestly believe their child wouldn't do,climb,disappear, or other stunt not usually done.

Stuff happens.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
You're not overreacting. Kids do fall out of windows, get lost in the woods at national parks, etc. It happens to parents who honestly believe their child wouldn't do,climb,disappear, or other stunt not usually done.

Stuff happens.

This. I completely agree.


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## Ravensong13 (Sep 28, 2009)

When I visit someone's house I never expect them to have the same safety precautions that I do and therefore do not let dd leave my sight. BUT I am kind of a hoverer as well, lol.
I wouldn't ever let the woman watch your kids or let your guard down when at her house. I agree with the pps about how easily kids walk out of houses or get lost when not properly watched. I guess you'll have to decide whether or not this is a friendship deal breaker or not? I have some friends who have kids and because our parenting styles differ so drastically, it has altered our level of involvement with each other.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

It's really your choice if you want to continue the friendship. I don't think there are any rules that say you have to be friends with someone even if someone else thinks you're being silly.

Still, I also think it would be helpful to sort out the primary issues. They kid their kids free range and that's their prerogative. So the issue really is the safety of your kid. I think you've learned not to give responsibility to watch your kid to the mom, not for one second. Next you learned not to give responsibility to the dad. So you really just have to remember to be totally responsible for your kid when you're with them, as if you were alone or with total strangers. It's nice to be able to depend on your friends to help keep track of the flock, but it's apparently not going to happen with them.

Also, is this a cultural thing? Where you live, I remember once going into some catacombs. In the US, those catacombs would have been all roped off and everything. There was a part where you could easily just fall into darkness. My friend told me she went there all the time with her friends as a kid and they'd throw stuff down and listen for it to land WAY down below. Seriously, this was a "slip and you're dead" situation. But it's considered your responsibility to keep yourself safe, different from the US where that place would have been like sealed off or someone would have sued the town or something.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

No you aren't overreacting- you have a 1 yr old! I wouldn't write off the friendship because of their safety standards but for the fact that they lied to you, were careless with your 1 yr old, and laughed at your concern and fear. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I would want a friendship with.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I wouldn't actually do things with her. It sounds like she wants you to to chat with her while you hold her newborn or whatever. The problem is that you also have a baby. There is no way you can do that if you have to follow your own baby around.
Also, I think they were beyond rude when they laughed at your anger.


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl* 
...
Also, I think they were beyond rude when they laughed at your anger.











I'm a pretty free-range mama, but I would never, EVER laugh at someone else when they were upset because their child was missing - especially if I'd been asked to watch that child or had said I'd close and lock the door to keep that child in! That goes way beyond free-range parenting and well into a lack of respect for other people, imo.


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

It just sounds to me that you have VERY different methods of parenting. I am probably similar to the mom you're talking about, and similar to *tiffani*. A 3 year old next to a flight of stairs would be a non-issue to me.

Honestly, I do think that screaming at your friend's husband because you couldn't find your child was an overreaction. If it's important for you to know where your child is all the time, you are the one who should be keeping him in sight. It's unrealistic to expect other people to not only know what YOUR parenting standards are, but to also adhere to them.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

OP - I get where you are coming from, what you described would disturb me greatly had I been in your shoes.

We have friends that had this la-la-la attitude about safety and it drove me nuts long before DS was born. It was far beyond the "do you let your 4 yo use a steak knife?" type of debate.

The stuff they simply didn't worry about was amazing - like their 2-3 year constantly escaping from the house at 5am in the morning and walking down a very busy street. Seriously, put a slide bolt on the door! Or leaving a toddler completely unsupervised playing next to a pond. And yes, said toddler did fall in when no one was looking and thank good, his dad looked out the window in time.

It was like they were missing whatever chip in their brain that registers fear/concern.

I wouldn't stop a friendship over it but I would never let those people be in a position of watching my child(ren)


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annethcz* 
It just sounds to me that you have VERY different methods of parenting. I am probably similar to the mom you're talking about, and similar to *tiffani*. A 3 year old next to a flight of stairs would be a non-issue to me.

Honestly, I do think that screaming at your friend's husband because you couldn't find your child was an overreaction. If it's important for you to know where your child is all the time, you are the one who should be keeping him in sight. It's unrealistic to expect other people to not only know what YOUR parenting standards are, but to also adhere to them.

I agree with this.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Wow! Those people sound irresponsible. I wouldn't call this a free range, vs helicopter situation. Parents must provide a secure environment for small children. Accidents are the number one cause of childhood death. Not disease, not stranger abduction, but accidents. Falling from windows, getting hit by cars and drowning are the biggest threats children face nowadays.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annethcz* 
Honestly, I do think that screaming at your friend's husband because you couldn't find your child was an overreaction. If it's important for you to know where your child is all the time, you are the one who should be keeping him in sight. It's unrealistic to expect other people to not only know what YOUR parenting standards are, but to also adhere to them.

She didn't scream at him because she didn't know where her child was, she screamed at him because he agreed to lock the door and LIED about it and that resulted in her child being in a situation she felt was unsafe. He didn't have to know her parenting standards and adhere to them, he just needed to not *lie* about locking a door.

The only reason the OP wasn't watching her LO closely enough to see that he'd gone out the door is that she had been told that the door would be locked. Just as she'd be reassured at the national park that her child was being watched by the other adult.

OP, both those people were irresponsible to lie to you. Thank goodness you didn't learn that by having your child harmed by their lack of trustworthiness.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Weird. If I tell someone I'm going to watch their child, I watch them. You know, with my eyes. Even without the fact that you're talking about a 1 year old in a public park, she said she would watch him and then didn't do it.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 

The only reason the OP wasn't watching her LO closely enough to see that he'd gone out the door is that she had been told that the door would be locked. Just as she'd be reassured at the national park that her child was being watched by the other adult.

I agree with this. I wouldn't call them names though. My own three year olds were very physically and mentally mature and by the time the *oldest* was still 3 we were pretty far from babyproofing things like doors to the outside. We were more like, you guys want to go on a four mile round trip bike ride (each person on his own independent bike)?

I can see losing touch with the needs of a 1 year old especially if tired from a new baby.

You have definitely been put on notice that they both have a short attention span and are not going to take responsibility to fix that. I think it's OK to say, this is not a good match for me for playdates now because it's too much work to keep up with their mistakes. I'd say have them over to your house only, but they could open those doors too.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
I will see them again at the meetings of the group we both belong to, but other than that I don't think I want to continue the friendship. Do you think I am overreacting?

You are not over re-acting. There are two separate issues. First, your ideas on safety are very different. Second, they are really disrespectful to YOU. If it were only the first, and they understood that their ideas were different and they were respectful to you about it, then there could be a chance for a friendship, but the combination is lethal for friendship.

We are semi-free range (more so than any families we know IRL) and I know that my kids guidelines are out of sync with many of their friends. I totally respect their friends' parents as I believe that all parents are making the best choices they can based on loving their kids. To laugh at another parent or say you are going to do something that you know is a big deal to the other parent and then just not bother is unacceptable.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I was thinking it might be cultural as well. I remember a Dr. Phil (!) episode where a man from the region where you live was married to an American woman and she was horrified at how lax he was about their 4-year-old's safety. Of course your friends might be posting right now about their incredibly laissez-faire friend who doesn't make her one-year-old wear a coat and wool hat in the summer.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
So I asked her to lock the door, and her husband replied, "Oh, I got it, I will lock the door and stay right by it so nobody can try and open it." With that thought, I continued drinking coffee.

I was surprised you said you continued drinking your coffee because as soon as I read that I assumed he was being sarcastic. Maybe it's just me though, but I started laughing







. I mean who would just sit there by their locked front door to make sure no one would go out?


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
She didn't scream at him because she didn't know where her child was, she screamed at him because he agreed to lock the door and LIED about it and that resulted in her child being in a situation she felt was unsafe. He didn't have to know her parenting standards and adhere to them, he just needed to not *lie* about locking a door.

Well, I don't know about you but my DS1 has been capable of opening a door (and unlocking it) since he was 2yo. It's quite possible that the 3yo just went and opened the door and went outside.

OP, I kind of think that it's your responsibility to watch your kids. I hold my friends newborn and still manage to watch my kids. If we're at someone's house then I watch them like hawks, if for no other reason than I don't want them playing with something they shouldn't and breaking it. If I go to the toilet I will ask whoever I'm with to watch my youngest and haven't had any problems, but if someone let my 1yo wander off then I just wouldn't ask that person to keep an eye on them anymore.

I can understand why you're angry, it's really freaky when we think about the things that could have happened to our children but at the end of the day, unless you are not there, it is your responsibility to keep them safe.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I've learned that you really can't count on others to watch your kids - especially when you are there - (not counting babysitters, daycare, some grandparents). It's just a false sense of security, IMO. Heck, I can barely keep track of all four of my kids while visiting or out in public - and in a way it's worse when we are with others. I've experienced kinda similar when at the zoo with a good friend's family. Except that I didn't outright say I was keeping an eye out on her toddler while she held my baby - and he took off in a matter of seconds. I think b/c there was 4 adults (2 sets of parents) that it's easy to get distracted and assume someone else is watching the kid(s).


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dandelionkid* 
No you aren't overreacting- you have a 1 yr old! I wouldn't write off the friendship because of their safety standards but for the fact that they lied to you, were careless with your 1 yr old, and laughed at your concern and fear. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I would want a friendship with.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I was surprised you said you continued drinking your coffee because as soon as I read that I assumed he was being sarcastic. Maybe it's just me though, but I started laughing







. I mean who would just sit there by their locked front door to make sure no one would go out?









It sounded sarcastic to me, not a promise.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I was surprised you said you continued drinking your coffee because as soon as I read that I assumed he was being sarcastic. Maybe it's just me though, but I started laughing







. I mean who would just sit there by their locked front door to make sure no one would go out?










I also read sarcasm into that!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Well, I don't know about you but my DS1 has been capable of opening a door (and unlocking it) since he was 2yo. It's quite possible that the 3yo just went and opened the door and went outside.

If a kid opened a door an adult had actually locked, the adult would apologize for not having known their kid could open their locks.

"Both husband and wife reacted like I was some crazy, overprotective mom." is the reaction of someone who never locked the door in the first place.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

I agree that there may be disrespect happening (not sure, I'd be willing to try again and see, though you might feel differently) but my main point earlier was that I wouldn't end a friendship based strictly on a difference in safety standards. being disrespected and talked down to, though, would be a different story, if that is in fact happening.

you can always see them casually and see where it goes...


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I was surprised you said you continued drinking your coffee because as soon as I read that I assumed he was being sarcastic. Maybe it's just me though, but I started laughing







. I mean who would just sit there by their locked front door to make sure no one would go out?

Their apartment is really tiny. He was sitting right by the front door (eating icecream) not because I asked him to, and nor was he being sarcastic. He was just sitting right by the front door because well, that also happens to be where their kitchen is







.

Something else to clarify is that, in the communal hallway of their third-floor apt, there is this awfully scary window, that is floor level, so kids could walk _right out there_. When I could not find my son, I seriously considered that this is exactly what he might have done, for a split second.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
She didn't scream at him because she didn't know where her child was, she screamed at him because he agreed to lock the door and LIED about it and that resulted in her child being in a situation she felt was unsafe. He didn't have to know her parenting standards and adhere to them, he just needed to not *lie* about locking a door.

The only reason the OP wasn't watching her LO closely enough to see that he'd gone out the door is that she had been told that the door would be locked. Just as she'd be reassured at the national park that her child was being watched by the other adult.

OP, both those people were irresponsible to lie to you. Thank goodness you didn't learn that by having your child harmed by their lack of trustworthiness.

Thank you for your support. Those were indeed the reasons I screamed at the husband. Additionally, the fear of thinking my son had walked out the window was still fresh, and my adrenalin was running. Also, after the incident at the national park, I felt _so stupid_ for thinking that this guy would do something as simple as locking a door and making sure the kids did not leave the apartment. I should have known better, because I already received prior signals that these people do not do what they say they will.

And really, I am not your typical helicopter parent. I consider myself to be quite laid-back, but I do need to know there is no immediate danger of death







!

Oh well, lesson learned. I decided that if they want a playdate again, that will be fine, _at my house_.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy* 







It sounded sarcastic to me, not a promise.

No sarcasm, I can see how it looks that way when you read the post, but he said it in a calm, reassuring manner. (See above)


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Also, is this a cultural thing? Where you live, I remember once going into some catacombs. In the US, those catacombs would have been all roped off and everything. There was a part where you could easily just fall into darkness. My friend told me she went there all the time with her friends as a kid and they'd throw stuff down and listen for it to land WAY down below. Seriously, this was a "slip and you're dead" situation. But it's considered your responsibility to keep yourself safe, different from the US where that place would have been like sealed off or someone would have sued the town or something.

You're right, to an extent, it is cultural. Some people let their three year olds play in the local park totally by themselves, while the parents stay home, and that is considered relatively normal.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Weird. If I tell someone I'm going to watch their child, I watch them. You know, with my eyes. Even without the fact that you're talking about a 1 year old in a public park, she said she would watch him and then didn't do it.

OK, I'll end my marathon posting session now, but this is exactly what I felt. After my one year old went missing, she even went as far as to deny she'd agreed to watch him in the first place. No sorry, no nothing.

If I had agreed to watch someone else's kid and they then went missing, I'd feel ashamed for the rest of my life. If you don't feel you can watch other peoples' kids that is fine, but then don't say you will. And I was not asking her for a favor, she asked me to hold her newborn.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I was surprised you said you continued drinking your coffee because as soon as I read that I assumed he was being sarcastic. Maybe it's just me though, but I started laughing







. I mean who would just sit there by their locked front door to make sure no one would go out?

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. I don't think he lied so much as made fun of what he saw as a huge overreaction.

BTW, I'm with another poster that stairs around a 3YO don't bother me. We have friends whose 18MO hasn't figured out stairs (with help), and I find her far, far behind in that regard. Both of my kiddos could go up and down stairs by 1.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Thank you for your support. Those were indeed the reasons I screamed at the husband.

First, I don't think I've ever "screamed" at anyone as an adult. That would feel like a major overreaction to me. Second, if the apartment was so "tiny," - you've pointed that out several times - shouldn't you have been able to see what was going on?


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
First, I don't think I've ever "screamed" at anyone as an adult. That would feel like a major overreaction to me. Second, if the apartment was so "tiny," - you've pointed that out several times - shouldn't you have been able to see what was going on?

OK, perhaps I didn't quite "scream", but certainly something similar. They have two rooms. I was in the other room. Close enough to hear exactly what was going on as it happened, but not able to see, because of a wall.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I guess I come down on the side of: they are in the wrong here. I can't even fathom for a second promising to watch someone's one year old (one! a baby!) at a busy beach with lots of woods all around, and not actually keep my eyes on him. But even if I did screw up and he managed to wander off I would feel SOOOO bad. I would be freaking out as much as the mom and would be helping to look for him. I can't imagine LAUGHING at my friend while she was worried sick!!!

And I don't think it's irresponsible/unusual/etc to expect that if your friend says "I'll watch him" that that means that she'll actually watch him. Even if her older dc would have stayed close by at that age doesn't mean she should assume that yours would. When I look after someone else's kid (esp if I don't know them super well) I'm extra cautious because I don't know them as well as my own and I don't know exactly how they'll act in any given situation.

And the dad saying he'd lock and watch the door and then just going off would make me livid too. That open window sounds very dangerous and I wouldn't even feel ok with my 5.5 yr old playing near it without me watching (perhaps being tempted to lean out it), let alone my toddler.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl* 
I guess I come down on the side of: they are in the wrong here. I can't even fathom for a second promising to watch someone's one year old (one! a baby!) at a busy beach with lots of woods all around, and not actually keep my eyes on him. But even if I did screw up and he managed to wander off I would feel SOOOO bad. I would be freaking out as much as the mom and would be helping to look for him. I can't imagine LAUGHING at my friend while she was worried sick!!!

And I don't think it's irresponsible/unusual/etc to expect that if your friend says "I'll watch him" that that means that she'll actually watch him. Even if her older dc would have stayed close by at that age doesn't mean she should assume that yours would. When I look after someone else's kid (esp if I don't know them super well) I'm extra cautious because I don't know them as well as my own and I don't know exactly how they'll act in any given situation.

And the dad saying he'd lock and watch the door and then just going off would make me livid too. That open window sounds very dangerous and I wouldn't even feel ok with my 5.5 yr old playing near it without me watching (perhaps being tempted to lean out it), let alone my toddler.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

No, you didn't overreact. I think your friends are being very disrespectful to you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
I was surprised you said you continued drinking your coffee because as soon as I read that I assumed he was being sarcastic. Maybe it's just me though, but I started laughing







. I mean who would just sit there by their locked front door to make sure no one would go out?


I also read the father's statement as sarcasm. He was making fun of you, OP.







At least that's how it came across to me. The fact he would mock you that way is not cool at all.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
Yeah, that's what I thought, too. I don't think he lied so much as made fun of what he saw as a huge overreaction.

BTW, I'm with another poster that stairs around a 3YO don't bother me. We have friends whose 18MO hasn't figured out stairs (with help), and I find her far, far behind in that regard. Both of my kiddos could go up and down stairs by 1.

My dd could go up and down stairs by 1. At 21.5 months she still doesn't always CARE that the stairs are there. She's just as likely to have her head turned away from the stairs as her little feet step right out and down.

ETA: I haven't actually let her fall down the stairs, but stairs going down are harder to see than stairs going up and she's tripped on up stairs she didn't bother to notice.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
First, I don't think I've ever "screamed" at anyone as an adult. That would feel like a major overreaction to me. Second, if the apartment was so "tiny," - you've pointed that out several times - shouldn't you have been able to see what was going on?

"scream" was actually annethcz's interpretation of the OP saying she "yelled". I then perpetuated the error when I quoted and responded to annethcz. There is a definite difference between yelling and screaming and yelling at someone in another room is quite reasonable.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

The average age for a child to walk down stairs unassisted is 3 yrs. An 18 mth old is not remotely behind if they can't walk down stairs yet and in fact are on the early side if they can.


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## Mom2M (Sep 23, 2006)

I don't think you are overreacting at all for not wanting to continue the friendship. I think there is an attitude of disrespect toward you and your safety concerns and I think your concerns are certainly valid!
The window really sounds scary and losing your son in the crowd at the park is very negligent in my opinion.

If I were you I would continue being acquaintances at the group meetings and just not arrange any more playdates or anything.

By the way, I also agree with the pp regarding the age of going up and down stairs with no problem! I think children who are able to do stairs by themselves at 1 year old are quite amazing and 18 months old, definitely advanced!
My kids were not developmentally delayed at all but did not do stairs alone before 2 years old!


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks for your support, everyone







. Their building is also done in some fancy newly-built style, which means that the stairs are not just along walls, but the walls have huge square holes in them on one side that kids could certainly fall through. It is all concrete. In the, not unlikely event that a kid would fall down there, they'd need a trip to the ER at the very least.

I'm gonna see them again tomorrow at a group meeting. I am not going to watch their kids, and definitely not let them watch mine. Oh yes, at the last meeting, she left her newborn with me, in his stroller, and then went off somewhere. There were different organic stalls with honey, soap, essential oils etc, and she was looking at those. When he woke up, I called her, and she said she'd be right over. Then, she took another 20 minutes to get back to her newborn.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

This all has to do with your parenting comfort levels - I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a parent of two children to do what they say they are going to do, when they don't do that - well then that sort of gets to me too, you sound very uncomfortable in their appartment and I would agree that it's more prudent to meet on your terms at your house or in a park that you feel more comfortable with, maybe suggest to the mother to get a ring sling or wrap for her baby and then she can take care of her baby and child and you can take care of yours - if you want to continue the friendship that is - because the laughing at you is really not something I would appreciate either.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
The average age for a child to walk down stairs unassisted is 3 yrs. An 18 mth old is not remotely behind if they can't walk down stairs yet and in fact are on the early side if they can.

It's actually alternating feet that takes until 3. Most 2 year olds should be able to go up and down stairs.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
It's actually alternating feet that takes until 3. Most 2 year olds should be able to go up and down stairs.

Many 2 yr. olds will still need some assistance walking down stairs (a hand, a rail, wall). That's why I said walking down stairs _unassisted_ on average takes until 3.
But really either way an 18 mth old not being able to walk down stairs is in no way really behind developmentally.


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## poppan (Mar 8, 2008)

If I REALLY liked this new friend I might still hang out with her but probably not at her place, only at mine or other places where I feel like I know the layout and expected landmines. And you're already not letting her watch your kids, which is what I would do immediately as well. I don't think it's nice to make no attempt to accomodate a guest's concerns the way they refused to just close and lock their door during your visit so you can feel comfortable that your child is inside their apartment and not down the hall.

I say this even though I am a pretty lax parent when it comes to safety and other people are regularly horrified at how un-childproofed our place is/was for the age of our children. I think that's my business but when other people visit I do try to accommodate to their level of comfort to the extent that I can. Kids (and parents) are different and I understand why some people supervise more closely.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Many 2 yr. olds will still need some assistance walking down stairs (a hand, a rail, wall). That's why I said walking down stairs _unassisted_ on average takes until 3.
But really either way an 18 mth old not being able to walk down stairs is in no way really behind developmentally.

It's true that not being able to walk down stairs isn't behind at 18 months, but I wouldn't automatically offer a hand to a toddler who was carefully approaching a reasonable (non-steep, railings) stair case. "Unassisted" according to the ASQ for 18 months includes holding on to a railing or the wall.

Not that that has anything to do with the staircase in the OP's situation, that thing sounds scary! And even with a LO who is *able* to go up and down stairs, it doesn't mean they *will* go up and down the stairs instead of just walking off into space.

I'd trust a crawling baby around stairs alone before I'd trust a running toddler.


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
First, I don't think I've ever "screamed" at anyone as an adult. That would feel like a major overreaction to me.

I do not know how I would react if I thought my child had fallen out of a window and was injured or worse - screaming at someone would not be out of the possibilities.

If it was me, I think I would just see this person at group events.
I now have a seven year old and the friends with children; I have cultivated since having him are people I really like and people I trust my child with.

Someone who promises to watch my child and then tries to deny saying they agreed to this when something goes wrong; someone who disregards my request (because they think it is foolish - instead of telling me that they are not going to lock the door and watch it - so I can decide what I need to do) (note - if that is what happened) ; people who laugh at me when I am distraught over not knowing where my child is and fearing the worst - these are not people I would want to invest a lot of time in. ( sorry I can't go back to read the post not sure if you said they laughed at you or just thought you were too hypersensitive. In either case - they didn't seem to care about you)

I think people with different parenting skills can be friends -but I think what is really important is that a person can feel they can trust them.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Honestly it sounds like neither of your understand or respect the others choice in parenting. So long as everyone can respect what the other does with their own children I don't see any reason the friendship can't contiunue but it will take effort on both of your parts to respect that you each know your children and their capabilities. By a year all my children could safely navigate stairs. Because we had stairs and they practiced and I taught them as soon as they could crawl how to handle stairs. but when children came over who did not know how to handle stairs I expected their parents to make sure they stayed off the stairs.

i think the key is everyone takes care of their own children in a way they feel comfortable with. and not judge the other one.

This may not be the making of a best friend kind of relationship but at the same time it is nice to have someone you can hang out in the sandbox with every now and then. Just know the limits of the friendship.

ONe thing to be aware of though, in this kind of friendship with this dynamic is that as my kids got older my friend would let her children run off in the park, go to the pool alone etc while I enforces rules about boundries and such. which meant my kids often got left behind when the free-er kids left the boundries. it was sad and meant that we did not often play with those friends so as to avoid my children being hurt by getting ditched (i was not willing to relax the rules and was also offended that my dd "friends" would not stay inside her boundries as a curtesy to her....). But that's just the ebb and flow of friendships sometimes.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scottishmommy* 
Wow! Those people sound irresponsible. I wouldn't call this a free range, vs helicopter situation. Parents must provide a secure environment for small children. Accidents are the number one cause of childhood death. Not disease, not stranger abduction, but accidents. Falling from windows, getting hit by cars and drowning are the biggest threats children face nowadays.

This.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
It's true that not being able to walk down stairs isn't behind at 18 months, but I wouldn't automatically offer a hand to a toddler who was carefully approaching a reasonable (non-steep, railings) stair case. "Unassisted" according to the ASQ for 18 months includes holding on to a railing or the wall.

Not that that has anything to do with the staircase in the OP's situation, that thing sounds scary! And even with a LO who is *able* to go up and down stairs, it doesn't mean they *will* go up and down the stairs instead of just walking off into space.

I'd trust a crawling baby around stairs alone before I'd trust a running toddler.









My 18 month old can go up the stairs without assistance, and can walk down the stairs while holding my hand. I'm all for allowing kids to explore as much as possible, even in potentially dangerous situations like learning to use stairs - but with adequate parental supervision, so that potentially dangerous situations stay just that, and the parent can intervene as needed.

FWIW, by no means did I start off judging these people for their parenting of their own kids, though I was very much aware that it was something I would never do like that myself. I know all kids are different, and that what looked unsafe to be might not be unsafe for them. After having the chance to observe their behavior with my kids, as well as with their own, I know now that the older kid definitely has no inherent sense of safety. He nearly jumped off his balcony, nearly walked out of the already mentioned window, nearly ran under various cars several times, and jumped onto his newborn brother with full body force - all just while I was watching. I intervened in all those situations. The parents are probably annoyed about that, and have started a thread about their new friend who is terribly overprotective somewhere


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
You're not overreacting. *Kids do fall out of windows*, get lost in the woods at national parks, etc. It happens to parents who honestly believe their child wouldn't do,climb,disappear, or other stunt not usually done.

Stuff happens.

Eric clapton springs to mind. His son was three I think?


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

If you can continue the friendship by forgiving them and then never ever trusting them again with your children's safety, then why not? If you can't and/or don't think it's worth it, then it's their loss.

And, coming from the same culture, I can vouch it's NOT normal to think a tiny toddler should be left unsupervised next to a low open window or stairs with holes in the walls, nor is it normal not to keep an eye on said tiny toddler near a lake among lots of strangers. NOR is it normal to say you'll keep the toddler safe and then not do it.

And yes, I climbed the same fortress walls and descended into the same scary catacombs someone mentioned above when I was 9. NOT 1.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
I know now that the older kid definitely has no inherent sense of safety. He nearly jumped off his balcony, nearly walked out of the already mentioned window, nearly ran under various cars several times, and jumped onto his newborn brother with full body force - all just while I was watching. I intervened in all those situations. The parents are probably annoyed about that, and have started a thread about their new friend who is terribly overprotective somewhere

















I couldn't be around them. Not even to have just one of the kids over to my house to play. I'd be too worried that'd I'd told about an accidental death if I maintained any sort of contact. And if I'm not allowed to act to prevent it, I don't want to know about it.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Our ds's bf has no idea of the danger of water - I went swimming with them once and I'll never do it again; I literally rescued the child out of the water some many times I lost count, I even fished her 20 month old brother out of the water when he just jumped in and the mother was so slow off the mark i could hardly believe it, ds loves his bf but I made a decision to never ever put myself in that sort of position again - i can completely understand where you are coming from.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
FWIW, by no means did I start off judging these people for their parenting of their own kids, though I was very much aware that it was something I would never do like that myself. I know all kids are different, and that what looked unsafe to be might not be unsafe for them. After having the chance to observe their behavior with my kids, as well as with their own, I know now that the older kid definitely has no inherent sense of safety. He nearly jumped off his balcony, nearly walked out of the already mentioned window, nearly ran under various cars several times, and jumped onto his newborn brother with full body force - all just while I was watching. I intervened in all those situations. The parents are probably annoyed about that, and have started a thread about their new friend who is terribly overprotective somewhere









You can call it whatever parenting theory you want but imo it's just neglect and that child is going to get seriously injured (and if he doesn't it's pure luck).
I couldn't be around that, I would be on edge the enitre time.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

The thing that would bug me most (after I knew my kid was safe) would be that both parents have blatantly lied to you (I'm trusting your interpretation that the dad wasn't being sarcastic).

Being able to trust my friends is a must for me -- I wouldn't be able to carry on a close relationship with someone if they had a history of lying to me. I'd be able to be pleasant at group activities, but I just don't have it in me to take a friendship beyond the superficial level with someone I can't trust.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Litcrit* 
If you can continue the friendship by forgiving them and then never ever trusting them again with your children's safety, then why not? If you can't and/or don't think it's worth it, then it's their loss.

And, coming from the same culture, I can vouch it's NOT normal to think a tiny toddler should be left unsupervised next to a low open window or stairs with holes in the walls, nor is it normal not to keep an eye on said tiny toddler near a lake among lots of strangers. NOR is it normal to say you'll keep the toddler safe and then not do it.

And yes, I climbed the same fortress walls and descended into the same scary catacombs someone mentioned above when I was 9. NOT 1.

Really? What catacombs are those? Sounds like I have missed an essential tourist spot here







, or is it somewhere in Kalemegdan?

I really like this person, and I saw her today at the group meeting, and we had fun. No incidents to be mentioned. I'm fine with her watching her kids, me mine, and no harm done. But I am still amazed that both these situations happened. Yes, they lied, and showed blatant disrespect. But most of all, something really serious could have happened to my kids in both situations, and I'm still kind of shaky about that.

You know I'm no helicopter parent who tries to wrap my kids in bubble-wrap, right, Litcrit?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

different things are safe for different children though. The important thing to remember is that they do not know your child or what he is or isn't capable of so you will just need to be sure to be the one who watches your child.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
different things are safe for different children though. The important thing to remember is that they do not know your child or what he is or isn't capable of so you will just need to be sure to be the one who watches your child.

Right, but there are some things that are universally dangerous, or at least I believe so. Some of those are running in the road where cars are driving, jumping into a deep pool when you can't swim, and leaving your kid completely unsupervised in areas with large numbers of people. I am sure there are other examples too.

For the record, I don't really care of other people leave their kids unsupervised to roam around huge national parks with all kinds of hazards, if they think their kid is responsible enough to do so (But at 1? Hardly!). I just don't think I am really crazy to believe that someone will WATCH my kid when they say they will.


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## reignbelle (Feb 13, 2010)

lilyka said:


> Honestly it sounds like neither of your understand or respect the others choice in parenting. So long as everyone can respect what the other does with their own children I don't see any reason the friendship can't contiunue but it will take effort on both of your parts to respect that you each know your children and their capabilities. By a year all my children could safely navigate stairs. Because we had stairs and they practiced and I taught them as soon as they could crawl how to handle stairs. but when children came over who did not know how to handle stairs I expected their parents to make sure they stayed off the stairs.
> 
> i think the key is everyone takes care of their own children in a way they feel comfortable with. and not judge the other one.
> 
> ...


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
I just don't think I am really crazy to believe that someone will WATCH my kid when they say they will.

No, you're not crazy to initially think that. But it would be crazy to ever trust these people again.

In the words of Maya Angelou, "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time."


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## MissLotus (Nov 2, 2005)

I myself just could not be friends with someone whose way of thinking differed so vastly from mine. There is lax parenting, and there is neglect. It sounds like these people are neglectful and I just don't get that. SO many of the stupid accidents that happen to children are preventable. But their parents think it can't/won't happen and, you know, it's easier to not pay attention and to just hope it all works out. I can't get into that way of thinking. It's lazy. And I feel like my job as a parent is to make sure my kid stays safe to the best of my ability. If that means I have to get up off the couch to make sure my kid doesn't plummet down the stairs, I do it.

And you said, "_After my one year old went missing, she even went as far as to deny she'd agreed to watch him in the first place. No sorry, no nothing."_ It's a deliberate attitude. Not cool. I would have to stop calling a friend like that.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Their apartment is really tiny. He was sitting right by the front door (eating icecream) not because I asked him to, and nor was he being sarcastic. He was just sitting right by the front door because well, that also happens to be where their kitchen is







.
*
Something else to clarify is that, in the communal hallway of their third-floor apt, there is this awfully scary window, that is floor level, so kids could walk right out there. When I could not find my son, I seriously considered that this is exactly what he might have done, for a split second.*

My throat tightened at this comment. I *KNOW* and understand this type of fear!


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Eric clapton springs to mind. His son was three I think?

Oh aw. I didn't know that.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Really? What catacombs are those? Sounds like I have missed an essential tourist spot here







, or is it somewhere in Kalemegdan?

They're in Kalemegdan, and I bet the average tourist couldn't find half of them - they're unmarked and not in plain view. So much fun for a bunch of 9 year olds who happened to be into Enid Blyton at the time









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
Yes, they lied, and showed blatant disrespect.

I guess to me they sound more like irresponsible children with short attention spans than evil people capable of deliberate deception and derision. I could forgive irresponsible children and continue to have conversations and interactions with them, but not trust them with anything of any import to me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MittensKittens* 
You know I'm no helicopter parent who tries to wrap my kids in bubble-wrap, right, Litcrit?









Sure do.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissLotus* 
I myself just could not be friends with someone whose way of thinking differed so vastly from mine. There is lax parenting, and there is neglect. It sounds like these people are neglectful and I just don't get that. SO many of the stupid accidents that happen to children are preventable. But their parents think it can't/won't happen and, you know, it's easier to not pay attention and to just hope it all works out. I can't get into that way of thinking. It's lazy. And I feel like my job as a parent is to make sure my kid stays safe to the best of my ability. If that means I have to get up off the couch to make sure my kid doesn't plummet down the stairs, I do it.

And you said, "_After my one year old went missing, she even went as far as to deny she'd agreed to watch him in the first place. No sorry, no nothing."_ It's a deliberate attitude. Not cool. I would have to stop calling a friend like that.









Laid back parenting is totally cool with me but neglect not so much.


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## ICU2 (May 4, 2010)

I understand your concern about the door.

A couple of years ago, my DH's cousin's child died. He woke up and decided to open the front door and let himself out (he was 2). There was a pond at their apartment complex and he made his way to the pond and drowned. From what I understood at the time, it wasn't the first time he had opened the door and let himself out. Now I'm sure his parents never thought in a million years, "Hey, someday he may open the door and no one will be looking and he'll go down to the pond" but that's what happened.

You can't control the level of supervision they give their kids, but if you continue this friendship I think I would only meet at your house (where you probably already have basic safety precautions set up for your kids) or in a place you feel comfortable that doesn't have a lot of hazards around. I don't think I would be comfortable with the friendship after she said she would watch my child then deny that she said it after he got lost, but that's just me!


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## sweetpeppers (Dec 19, 2007)

I think the question of continuing with the friendship is not that their safety standards are lax, it's that they are not respecting you. Losing track of a kid happens to everyone sometimes, but it's really rude to laugh at someone who is upset about it or lie that you agreed to keep an eye on their kid. And the door thing was handled poorly as well with little respect for your feelings too. I don't see it as a safety issue, but a respect issue.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

Now that you know how the parents are you just have to always take care of your own even if they offer to *watch* them. It is obvious they wont.Good thing nothing happened either time.I wouldn't be upset over their lax parenting,but would be angry that they said they would do something and did not. Takes seconds for a harm to come to a child.

As I told my dh,"There is no one who will watch our kids as well as we do.No one cares for them as much as we do,so don't you dare pass them on to someone and go play on your computer or phone!"

And learn to quickly decline watching their children.I had a 3yo and a newborn, and I never had anyone watch them other than my dh.Even that was rare.You learn to do it.Ofcourse some people learn to pass their kids on to others,so you just have to work on avoiding that.


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## battymama (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VroomieMama* 
Oh aw. I didn't know that.

Tears in heaven was written by him after it happened.









Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven
Will it be the same
If I saw you in heaven
I must be strong, and carry on
Cause I know I don't belong
Here in heaven

Brings me to tears everytime I hear it.

Op I dont think you are over reacting at all, i think these peoples actions are pretty reprehensible.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barbie64g* 
Eric clapton springs to mind. His son was three I think?

I don't remember how old his son was, but now there is a law in NYC that if you have children under 10 living in your apartment you must have wondow guards on all windows that are not emergency exits (so all but the fire escape ones).


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Eric Clapton's son was 4 and half when he died. That song makes me cry every single time.


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