# Talk me into (or out of) Hello Kitty



## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

We're not really big on "characters" at our house. We've got a Dinosaur Train game and a Curious George stuffed monkey, but we don't wear clothes with characters or have backpacks or bags or other items of the sort. Mostly we just don't like the way that stuff looks, but it also tends to be of poor quality and it can breed a sense of materialism.

My MIL knows that we don't like this stuff, that we don't dress our kids that way and that in general we would prefer her to stick to non-commercialized sorts of gifts. Most of the time she is good about it. She doesn't understand, but she hasn't been too bad since the "light up Tinkerbell t-shirt" incident of 2008. Really, my inlaws are GREAT and supportive and all that. They adore their granddaughters, etc..

This Christmas, however, DD1 received from MIL and FIL, a Hello Kitty hat and glove set, a HK purse and wallet and a package of HK panties. Her Valentine's day card contained two sheets of HK stickers. My SIL had a Hello Kitty themed 1st birthday party for my niece (overseas, so I'm sure MIL sent supplies before Christmas) and I have a feeling that she just picked up 'extra' for my DD while she was shopping for DN.

Yesterday DD1 declared that she was a "huge fan" of Hello Kitty and that she wanted to wear all her HK stuff to show her friends.

I understand that that is the way of the 4 year old. We haven't had a princess phase and DD1 has been pretty sheltered from advertising and merchandising, so it hit me hard that she is so attached to this character. I'm pretty sure, though, that with a little time and separation from the stuff she will move past it.

I'm concerned, however, that MIL will continue to send this stuff along to her. A steady stream of HK is sure to fan the fires of Kitty love, you know?

I'm curious to hear your opinions of Hello Kitty. Is it worth getting into it again with my In-laws? (DH would do the talking and it would all be fine. We're all very civil and respectful, though MIL does think I'm a bit crazy) Is HK really just a harmless little kitten?

In the grand scheme of things this is really not a huge deal. I am all for family unity and know that 4yos can be like this.... I just die a little every time she dresses herself in these great non-character outfits (usually mismatched!) and then tops it off with a dollar store hat and gloves with huge HKs on them. I guess that I might be okay with this if it was something that DD1 had chosen for herself or was particularly interested in, but I feel like it is being put upon her by MIL and it rubs me the wrong way.

Thanks for your insight!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

We have nothing against Hello Kitty in this house. I think the best part of Hello Kitty, is that she didn't originate as a cartoon character. She started out a brand mark for Sanrio.


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## Octopus8 (Dec 26, 2010)

I don't have anything insightful to say - Just that I love Hello Kitty, and have since I was about your daughter's age.


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

Woodchick, I feel your pain in so many ways... and agree with you on so many things! Except I wouldn't necessarily characterize my MIL as "civil". The woman flat out has issues, sadly. But she definitely thinks I'm crazy. I mean, I don't even let dd wear make up or buy her high heels! It's like she's not even a girl! Haha. Really, on both sides of our family, I've fought the fight you're fighting against the whole world of characters all along. I mean, my MIL just sent Valentine's Day cards, one all Tinkerbell and her fairy friends (seriously? I mean, didn't anyone else think Tinkerbell was, to phrase it rather gently, a vindictive little pain in the booty in Peter Pan? Maybe I'm just too harsh!







) and the one she sent DS was Tron. Tron??!! For an eight year old? Ooookay... I didn't see it, I'm not opposed to it, but I just didn't think it was really marketed for children, so, why a child's card?

Whatever... but the truth is they get SO little of that in their lives. We don't watch many of the popular cartoons and the ones that get by me are more weekly to monthly occurrences vs daily. I don't buy them any character inspired toys or clothes. So when a family member gets brave and sends a Polly Pocket or Hot Wheels, I try to let it slide. Everyone in the family knows where my real battle lines are drawn - issues like modesty both for the kids AND their toys, no point sending any video games, we don't own the consoles, and NO, you cannot buy them the consoles, thank you, among other a few other ideals I try to stick with in our world. They tend to at least respect my bottom line, so I try to work with them in that way. All that having been said....

I







Hello Kitty. Have since I was about eight! And turns out she came out about the same year I was born, so geez, it's almost like we're sisters, right??!! JK... but the irony there is that while I love HK, I think my dd just plays along with her to make me happy. Which is so silly - I really try to encourage her to just say no to HK (or what have you) if she's not into her. I certainly would prefer to respect her choices vs watch her try to placate my own inner child, though it's awfully sweet of her to try. At first, dd was all about her.. but then I may have taken that joke a little too far, and now I think I've driven her away from HK.. sigh. *Maybe* your MIL will do the same if allowed to run her course with this?

And then again, if you give your MIL an inch with HK... what might she try to take a mile with later? LOL...


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

I try to hold off on characters as long as I can with my kids, but there are places that I am flexible. For example, my 2 year old LOVES football and he recently found a shirt with Blue from Blue's Clues on it kicking a football through the uprights at a consignment shop. He adores it. He's also never seen Blue's Clues in his little life. He just thinks it is the greatest shirt ever because it has not only a puppy on it, but football too! I don't mind this...is Blue's Clues even still on?

I guess I also wouldn't really consider Hello Kitty a character in the same way because HK doesn't have a show or movie (at least not that I know of?) I understand not wanting to totally give in at the risk of MIL buying out the disney store though.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Agatha_Ann*
> 
> I guess I also wouldn't really consider Hello Kitty a character in the same way because HK doesn't have a show or movie (at least not that I know of?) I understand not wanting to totally give in at the risk of MIL buying out the disney store though.


Actually she has both, and video games too. They just weren't made until after Hello Kitty became a well known mascot for Sanrio.


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## mumkimum (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't really understand why grandparents of these times are so attached to bombarding kids with character items myself. (feels like it anyway. . . we get a lot of complaining too)

In our effort to keep character stuff to a minimum, I do allow hello kitty without restriction. From my perspective - hello kitty isn't about movies/tv shows which makes a big difference (I know there now are hello kitty movies and tv stuff but they're pretty lame and I would never get/watch them - they also aren't a big part of where you find hello kitty out there anyway, it's mostly stickers, clothes, stationary stuff). She's mainly meant as a cat picture, no different than another neutral cat picture/drawing that isn't a tv/movie character.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Actually she has both, and video games too. They just weren't made until after Hello Kitty became a well known mascot for Sanrio.


Whoops! I stand corrected









Ok, so my super fast research says that it no longer airs in the US, so I guess I would still feel the same as I do with our Blue's Clues shirt.


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## princesstutu (Jul 17, 2007)

We love Hello Kitty! Have since 1976!

I don't do the princess media-hype, but I buy all sorts of HK stuff. Including the games.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Thank you all! I'm actually surprised at the feelings that this issue is bring up for me. In the long run it is so not a huge deal, but right now it is hitting hard.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> We have nothing against Hello Kitty in this house. I think the best part of Hello Kitty, is that she didn't originate as a cartoon character. She started out a brand mark for Sanrio.


 I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around celebrating a character whose sole purpose is to sell stuff. The company Sanrio only exists to sell stuff with Kitty on it, right? I think I might feel better if DD had a shirt with WordGirl on it instead. At least she likes the WordGirl show and there is a purpose behind the character.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lizzie*
> 
> Whatever... but the truth is they get SO little of that in their lives. We don't watch many of the popular cartoons and the ones that get by me are more weekly to monthly occurrences vs daily. I don't buy them any character inspired toys or clothes. So when a family member gets brave and sends a Polly Pocket or Hot Wheels, I try to let it slide. Everyone in the family knows where my real battle lines are drawn - issues like modesty both for the kids AND their toys, no point sending any video games, we don't own the consoles, and NO, you cannot buy them the consoles, thank you, among other a few other ideals I try to stick with in our world. They tend to at least respect my bottom line, so I try to work with them in that way. All that having been said....


I totally agree with you in regards to choosing your battles! I really do value our family over this issue, I'm just trying to work things out in my own mind. I actually would prefer something like Polly Pocket or Hot Wheels. I can see the value in playing with them and they exist for a 'reason' (to play with). The Hello Kitty stuff that we have only has one purpose, to tell the world that we have purchased something from Sanrio. All of the HK stuff we have could easily be replaced with non-branded items of equal or greater quality.

I don't deny that Hello Kitty is cute, but I'm struggling with the idea that 'cute' is a good reason to buy these items. DD has already started noticing other HK stuff in stores and is trying to get me to buy it. Not because she needs the socks/hat/watch/sneakers, whatever, but solely because they have Hello Kitty on them. We are striving to declutter and simplify our lives and to live frugally (4 people, 1 income, 850sqft home) and this mindset is totally against that.

And not to go off on a tangent, but I hear so much about "how awful it is that kids are being advertised to so much these days" and "let's let kids be kids" and "kids these days don't have any idea how to wisely manage their money", but at the same time people in my children's lives are constantly playing into the hype. They want to take them to big movies and buy them branded merchandise and set them up for character addiction by playing up how cute it is.

I do really appreciate hearing from you all who don't have a problem with HK! I really don't think she's evil or anything, really! I'd actually like to hear more about why you love her, I think I am missing the gene that allow me to 'get it'


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

"Cute" is not a good reason to buy a shirt or pencil box if you are not in need of a shirt or pencil box. But if you ARE in need of a shirt, most people would pick one that is visually attractive to them. I think you need to decide whether you are against Hello Kitty, against clutter, or both.

I will be honest and say that I do not share the extreme anti-character sentiments of many here on MDC, but neither did we buy excessive character things when my boys were little. DS2 was into Spiderman for a couple of years, and that's the extent of it. My kids are now 19 and 15 and do not wear Spiderman shirts. DS2 does have a Domo wallet and a Domo t-shirt, but overall does not have a Domo fixation. He just likes comic books, Anime and Manga, and Japanese pop-culture, and Domo sort of symbolizes that for him.

As for being materialistic or object-obsessed, I do know a couple of "natural-minded" mamas who have to have a new phone as soon as a new model comes out, and can't go five minutes without fiddling with it. Guess what item their LOs obsess over? Mama's cell phone. I think that if things are viewed with moderation, whether it be a cell phone or a Hello Kitty shirt, then kids will generally follow suit. That's been my experience, anyway. Telling a child they can't have something for reasons that are not understandable/important to the child only makes the child desire it even more.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I don't deny that Hello Kitty is cute, but I'm struggling with the idea that 'cute' is a good reason to buy these items. DD has already started noticing other HK stuff in stores and is trying to get me to buy it. Not because she needs the socks/hat/watch/sneakers, whatever, but solely because they have Hello Kitty on them. We are striving to declutter and simplify our lives and to live frugally (4 people, 1 income, 850sqft home) and this mindset is totally against that.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Having just read Peggy Orenstein's Cinderella Ate my Daughter and having a 5 year old daughter myself, frankly I have no issues with Hello Kitty compared to say the Disney Princesses. Hello Kitty came out when I was a kid and I remember having a HK phase and it was just that. Unlike my feelings about the princess stuff which IMO feels like it does constantly promote consumption and grows in time. If you read her book what I am saying will probably make sense. Ultimately every item on some level is about consumption, I mean at Christmas time we catalogs from places like Magic Cabin, Nova Naturals, etc and at the end of the day they want us to buy as well. I have seen this in my own house, we started out with the small wooden kitchen and then it grew from there, no its not branded but still there are items that go with it.

Now that my daughter is in school (I also have a 19 yo son, so I have dealt with the issue of characters for a long time) I say pick and choose your battles. I know that since my girl started school her knowledge about things has increased, I am constantly explaining why she can't have XYZ, or watch this show or that. Its all about picking and choosing. Right now I would be thrilled if my kid was just into HK.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Woodchick, I get it. I happen to have a family around me (on both sides) which have the exact same values as I do and none of us has cable TV, loads of plastic toys or anything like that. That makes a huge difference.

I'm not "anti-characters" just because I don't like the princess thing, the TV thing, the "my DD emulating TV personalities" thing or the "worshiping Hanna Montana or other stars" thing...I don't like the "turning kids into consumers" thing, either. HK is one of the most recognizable brands in the world. Everybody knows HK. You don't just get a HK shirt, you get a shirt, love it and then see the backpack...gloves, hate, doll, and on and on. The point of HK is to sell you stuff and more stuff and then, when you grow out of that stuff, MORE stuff. It's not about having a precious thing that you cherish...it's about, buy this and then look forward to buying the next piece in the line....DON'T YOU JUST WANNA HAVE IT ALLLLL! I never did this as a kid, but so many of the girls I knew did. It wasn't one Barbie...it was seveteen Barbies, a Special addition Holiday Barbie every year, the corvette, the jeep, the Dream House....they had to keep collecting and collecting on and on and on. Something new was always coming out to add to your set and you had to have it. AAGHHH!

Because of my intense disdain for the rampant disease of consumerism which has come to be the norm in the last generations, I do not buy clothing new. I shop at consignment boutiques. We have REALLY great ones in my area and I spend a FRACTION of what a lot of people I know spend on clothes and the best part of all, is that the shops we go to happen to be run by extremely crunchy type ladies and so there are NO faces, princess themed stuff or clothing of poor quality. Everything is in like-new condition and everything is Disney, TV character, etc FREE. So, my DD can look with me without my being paranoid about her falling in love with something I'm going to hate. I WANT her to pick her own clothing, I WANT her to be interested in colors, to pick patterns she likes and to get used to finding things that make her feel good. It's just much nicer to do that and let her have free choice in a place where I won't be forced into buying something I morally against. One boutique in particular is really my favorite...because half of the boutique is new stuff...but ALL ethically manufactured with "green" materials, organic cotton, fair trade, etc. So if I need to shop for a baby shower, or if I want to buy something new...I can do it and still feel good about it.

Where is Hello Kitty made?

WHO makes it?

WHAT is it made out of?

These are all the kinds of questions you have to ask yourself and if you dig for the answers, you'll puke in your lap. I get that HK is an iconic image, everyone knows what it is and I guess it's cute....but what's not cute (to me) is putting her on absolutely EVERYTHING for the sole purpose of getting people hooked and buying more and more....and having the profitability of this business model dependent upon cheap (nearly slave) labor.

.

Sorry for the ramble. I get it. I wouldn't have a problem telling MIL to knock it off. I don't want my kid to be a walking billboard, selling this high-consumerism to other kids by shoving the image in their face all the time. I don't want to send my money to some slave labor loving company in China or wherever...I want to support local business people who are reselling things that used to be sitting in boxes in peoples attics.

I don't want the blood, sweat and tears of the workers who live in squalor to make HK "gear" profitable for the mega corporations all over my childrens bodies. It makes me sick to imagine it.

*P.S.*: I'm looking and looking for a link to the article or paper that came out a few years ago talking about how the children (as young as 12-14!) who make Hello Kitty(winnie the pooh, too) and other brands *actually* live. There was an expose of sorts after one of these factories (ToyCity in China?) was investigated. These kids were found to be working 30 days a month for 12-16 hours a day. They work in the same room they sleep in. They work until they can't anymore, then they pass out on their bunk, then they wake up and work again. The conditions were absolutely terrible. The fumes and solvents, etc that these kids were living in (breathing ALL day, EVERYDAY and had all over their bodies) were making them so sick. They were desperate for the wages, so a lot of them lied about how old they were to get in and work there....the wages were so low, so so low. These kids were found to be working for nearly nothing in conditions so bad that I couldn't finish reading the article. I just stopped, closed out of it and said a silent prayer. I can't find the link right now, but I will keep looking because I think it's important for people to understand where this crap comes from. I think it's important to realize that when you send your money to whatever company sells this HK stuff, you are sending your money to people who enslave other people...men women and children alike. You are paying, to enslave children. That's what you're doing. By keeping this wheel of consumerism turning, we are keeping (in some cases, the better part of whole nations of) people enslaved. This has to stop.

You buy that shirt new and it's all clean and perfect....but never, ever forget, the little hands that touched it before you put it on your child. Some other kid, living in a room with mattresses from floor to ceiling, surrounded by other kids who should be playing and eating good foods, was holding that piece of fabric, making it into a Hello Kitty shirt. His little fingers turned it around and around, his little breath probably got on it...his little boy energy went into making that, not into playing with ships in the river or flying a kite. Then, it traveled across an ocean to a store near you...where you bought it...and then took it home and put it on your child. That other kids hands are touching your baby's little body. It's gross. It's gross to put something like that on our kids. It's gross to put the energy of that inequality and despair all over our kids. We should stop.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> "Cute" is not a good reason to buy a shirt or pencil box if you are not in need of a shirt or pencil box. But if you ARE in need of a shirt, most people would pick one that is visually attractive to them. I think you need to decide whether you are against Hello Kitty, against clutter, or both.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you! And that's why the HK stuff is still in our house and we thanked Grandma for it  I've turned down buying things at the store for the same reasons we always do, not because she 'can't have HK'. I haven't said boo to her about it. I personally don't like or dislike HK, but I'm mostly against consumerism for consumerism's sake.

I mean, the kid is 4! It is not like she has a deep love of HK and wants to show it to the world. She's had it foisted on her. I do think that if left on its own that it will blow over. In my OP I mentioned that I'm worried that Grandma will keep fanning the flames by sending more.

To add to the issue, I think I'm also dealing with struggles from my own life regarding gift giving. I have a long (and sad) history of receiving gifts that were given with no thought of the recipient or were grossly unfair (one year I got a science fiction book from the uncle who took my brother skiing for the weekend. I also ski, and didn't read scifi). So I know that this is playing into it. MIL knows our preferences and she knows what DD truly likes, so why go crazy with something like this?


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *shayinme*
> 
> Having just read Peggy Orenstein's Cinderella Ate my Daughter and having a 5 year old daughter myself, frankly I have no issues with Hello Kitty compared to say the Disney Princesses. Hello Kitty came out when I was a kid and I remember having a HK phase and it was just that. Unlike my feelings about the princess stuff which IMO feels like it does constantly promote consumption and grows in time. If you read her book what I am saying will probably make sense. Ultimately every item on some level is about consumption, I mean at Christmas time we catalogs from places like Magic Cabin, Nova Naturals, etc and at the end of the day they want us to buy as well. I have seen this in my own house, we started out with the small wooden kitchen and then it grew from there, no its not branded but still there are items that go with it.
> 
> Now that my daughter is in school (I also have a 19 yo son, so I have dealt with the issue of characters for a long time) I say pick and choose your battles. I know that since my girl started school her knowledge about things has increased, I am constantly explaining why she can't have XYZ, or watch this show or that. Its all about picking and choosing. Right now I would be thrilled if my kid was just into HK.


But, again, sure those toy companies want you to buy their things, but they are actually selling 'usable' goods. There's always a new 'set' or something, but the kitchen (wooden or otherwise) is a valuable learning tool. The add ons make for more interesting play. Wanting/needing to get a new Hello Kitty pencil set because it matches your Hello Kitty stretchy gloves just seems so much different to me.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

AverysMomma, I think I love you


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## khhh (Feb 11, 2011)

I love Hello Kitty.

BUT I'm like you... not into the cartoon clothes... in fact, I would venture to say that I despise them and wouldn't be caught dead with my kids in them!

But a scarf and gloves... stickers... all removable and small. It's ok!! Breathe


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I totally agree with you in regards to choosing your battles! I really do value our family over this issue, I'm just trying to work things out in my own mind. I actually would prefer something like Polly Pocket or Hot Wheels. I can see the value in playing with them and they exist for a 'reason' (to play with). The Hello Kitty stuff that we have only has one purpose, to tell the world that we have purchased something from Sanrio. All of the HK stuff we have could easily be replaced with non-branded items of equal or greater quality.
> 
> ...


You know, you make an excellent point with the idea that HK isn't necessarily having a purpose beyond being cute for *so many* of her products,and I agree completely with making the kids think about why they're wanting to buy something, where it will go in their room, what purchasing this item vs that item will mean for their allowances or the families finances. All things I wish I'd thought about more when mine were younger!  The first thing I got for dd that was HK was a little playhouse (like smaller than a shoe box) with her family members and some furniture, so it actually engaged dd in imaginative play and was small and easy to take with us for some trips where she would need a source of entertainment - so HK does have some things, somewhere, that are more play oriented rather than clutter inspiring. I had some really cute stationery & markers too when I was a kid... 

Only to say that IF you decide to allow HK - or whomever - maybe letting your MIL know that if she just has to get some kind of character thing, you'd prefer it was something your dd could use, rather than something turned dd into a billboard? Though I guess those can overlap too.

Never got the idea that you thought HK was evil though! LOL.. Idk... I have no idea why I've liked her so much for so long. The books and videos she has are just asinine for most part... It was a birthday gift when I was about 8 that got me into her, the stationery I mentioned. But then I got older and found I love nearly all things related to Japanese stationery, so perhaps it was the style that appealed to me and I just assumed it was HK for all those years since no one was making me think about why I wanted to spend my money!


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> *P.S.*: I'm looking and looking for a link to the article or paper that came out a few years ago talking about how the children (as young as 12-14!) who make Hello Kitty(winnie the pooh, too) and other brands *actually* live. There was an expose of sorts after one of these factories (ToyCity in China?) was investigated. These kids were found to be working 30 days a month for 12-16 hours a day. They work in the same room they sleep in. They work until they can't anymore, then they pass out on their bunk, then they wake up and work again. The conditions were absolutely terrible. The fumes and solvents, etc that these kids were living in (breathing ALL day, EVERYDAY and had all over their bodies) were making them so sick. They were desperate for the wages, so a lot of them lied about how old they were to get in and work there....the wages were so low, so so low. These kids were found to be working for nearly nothing in conditions so bad that I couldn't finish reading the article. I just stopped, closed out of it and said a silent prayer. I can't find the link right now, but I will keep looking because I think it's important for people to understand where this crap comes from. I think it's important to realize that when you send your money to whatever company sells this HK stuff, you are sending your money to people who enslave other people...men women and children alike. You are paying, to enslave children. That's what you're doing. By keeping this wheel of consumerism turning, we are keeping (in some cases, the better part of whole nations of) people enslaved. This has to stop.
> 
> You buy that shirt new and it's all clean and perfect....but never, ever forget, the little hands that touched it before you put it on your child. Some other kid, living in a room with mattresses from floor to ceiling, surrounded by other kids who should be playing and eating good foods, was holding that piece of fabric, making it into a Hello Kitty shirt. His little fingers turned it around and around, his little breath probably got on it...his little boy energy went into making that, not into playing with ships in the river or flying a kite. Then, it traveled across an ocean to a store near you...where you bought it...and then took it home and put it on your child. That other kids hands are touching your baby's little body. It's gross. It's gross to put something like that on our kids. It's gross to put the energy of that inequality and despair all over our kids. We should stop.


Wow. Please do post that if you find it! I appreciate you all making me think more about this. I'll drop her cute fake fuzziness like a hot rock!

And we should think more this stuff - I should be explaining things like that to my children, helping them learn more responsible consumerism. Better start doing some digging on my own.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> I will be honest and say that I do not share the extreme anti-character sentiments of many here on MDC, but neither did we buy excessive character things when my boys were little.
> 
> ...


We have so much in common! I didn't buy my kids character stuff when they were little, and we managed to keep some those things secret from our kids for a long time. However, once they were school aged, it went out the window. And we were homeschoolers! They got interested in things because other kids were interested in things, and I didn't see the point of the power struggle.

It's very reasonable to tell a child "no, you aren't getting a new hat today because you don't need one." It's quite another to be buying a child a hat and refuse to buy they one they like because it has a design on it they like but stands for something else *to you.* I think that's just a power thing.

My kids are now 12 and 14, and they don't care about stickers at all anymore, no matter what is on them.

As far as it coming from grandma rather than peers, I can see why it bothers you, but she would have found out about hello kitty eventually, and she still would have liked her. Hello Kitty is very likable!

<<I just die a little every time she dresses herself in these great non-character outfits (usually mismatched!) and then tops it off with a dollar store hat and gloves with huge HKs on them. >>

I think that's about you, not her. She's happy and having fun, and she feels very loved. It may be that part of the reason she likes the stuff so much is it is from Grandma, and Grandma/Grandchild relationship is a special thing. She's a blessed little child to have so many people in her life that love her and want to make her happy.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Funny, my mom shipped a whole box of HK to DD for Christmas. Makes me wonder, is there a movie out or something? Why so hot all of a sudden?

I despise characters. I really do. I fervently wish they would just leave our family forever. However, my mother insists on all things characters, and I have my choice between making a big fuss (and losing anyway) or just silently hating it. Don't get me wrong, I still blame corporations and my mother - I should be able to say no to something and have it respected. If there's a relationship issue, it's because my MOTHER is creating one. So that's not the reason I'm biting my tongue. The reason is that, being between a rock and a hard place that I am, I think it would be worse for DD if I made such a big deal out of it. I think it IS a big deal (and the child labor described upthread is absolutely a huge part, the majority of it) but I don't know what else to frikken do. My mother will buy whatever she wants, and the thing will be bought; whether it ends up in Goodwill or on a Freecycle post or in the trash, it's done. And I don't want DD to grow up wanting the characters that were dangled before her but her mother denied her. I instead hope my values will quietly prevail - eventually.

Can you tell I'm really mad about this? We're in a serious lose-lose position, thanks to grandmothers and corporations. My choices are: be the one who is blamed for destroying a relationship because my mother values HK more than her daughter and granddaughter (but of course it would actually be seen as me destroying the relationship over it), don't make a fuss with my mom but simply dispose of everything and then make my daughter feel deprived (which she would not have if my mother hadn't insisted on creating this problem in the first place), or just suck it up. Great choices.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around celebrating a character whose sole purpose is to sell stuff. The company Sanrio only exists to sell stuff with Kitty on it, right? I think I might feel better if DD had a shirt with WordGirl on it instead. At least she likes the WordGirl show and there is a purpose behind the character.


Actually no... Sanrio existed at least ten years before Kitty was even thought up. Yes she helps sell stuff, but this is a character that was created by and for Sanrio specifically (not the other way around), which makes it no different from any other line that puts any kind of image or words on their stuff. We aren't talking about a Disney shirt, or Thomas the Tank Engine shoes or even a stuffed Curious George. Those characters only appear on clothing because someone wanted to take an already well known image and make money off it without actually doing any work.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Actually no... Sanrio existed at least ten years before Kitty was even thought up. Yes she helps sell stuff, but this is a character that was created by and for Sanrio specifically (not the other way around), which makes it no different from any other line that puts any kind of image or words on their stuff. We aren't talking about a Disney shirt, or Thomas the Tank Engine shoes or even a stuffed Curious George. Those characters only appear on clothing because someone wanted to take an already well known image and make money off it without actually doing any work.


Okay. I really don't know much about Sanrio. But just because they're selling a picture of a cat (who is now a celebrity of her own, even retroactively) and not a 'show character' doesn't change my view on it. I don't buy "Johnny cupcake" shirts for myself, either. Just my personal quirks, I guess. If I'm going to show my support for a cupcake company, I want it to be one that actually sells cupcakes!


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> Woodchick, I get it. I happen to have a family around me (on both sides) which have the exact same values as I do and none of us has cable TV, loads of plastic toys or anything like that. That makes a huge difference.
> 
> ...


The issue about child labor is a serious one and is not, sadly, limited to children's toys and character shirts. Apple Computers, in its own audit, found that child labor was being used by its suppliers of various components. And it goes beyond China, though the volume of exports from China puts it in the spotlight, naturally. While not child labor, we have had sweatshops recently discovered in the US (or US territories) so it is not as simple as deciding to "Buy American" or banning certain characters. Given the very complex supplier systems in most industries, it is nearly impossible to trace back the origin of parts and components for anything that you buy. Your plain white organic cotton shirt may have been made from cotton grown in Egypt or Pakistan, with the yarn and/or fabric made in a third country before your shirt was sewn "in America". There are too many points in the supplier process that could have relied on child labor, human trafficking or other labor abuses. The reality is that we just do not know the origin of most of the goods that we buy that involve more than one step in the manufacturing process. It is, indeed, gross and we should stop, but taking action requires far more information and research on individual products that we consume daily. It would be nice if this information was readily available to all of us so that we could be more confident about our own buying practices.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I guess my character threshold is inversely related to how popular the character is. The more popular, the more I tend to shy away. We don't do Dora or Spongebob or Spiderman or whatever, but DS has a stuffed Classic pooh & a hand-me-down t-shirt with Mickey on it, and one small Thomas train. I don't mind if they occasionally (VERY occasionally, and I'd prefer they altogether didn't!) make their way into our home, because DS has no concept that they are anything beyond what they are. Pooh is just a stuffed bear, Thomas is just a nameless blue train, and the shirt just happens to have a mouse on it. He doesn't know that there are books and TV shows and movies about them, and he certainly doesn't know you can go into any store and find 50 items with those characters on it. He's only 2 though. I don't think I'd be comfortable with a whole arsenal of Hello Kitty items, though I wouldn't care about a single sheet of stickers or something. I have returned/donated items with certain characters on them and will likely continue to do so -- I just feel like these are such vulnerable, impressionable years and I don't feel like the characters fit into our family values. So we limit exposure, even if it means returning well-meaning gifts... It's hard to say what I'll do in a couple years though, because DS is still at the age where he doesn't know the difference if we discretely make a gift disappear.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Okay. I really don't know much about Sanrio. But just because they're selling a picture of a cat (who is now a celebrity of her own, even retroactively) and not a 'show character' doesn't change my view on it. I don't buy "Johnny cupcake" shirts for myself, either. Just my personal quirks, I guess. If I'm going to show my support for a cupcake company, I want it to be one that actually sells cupcakes!


Do you avoid all clothing with any sort of animal or picture on it? Because that is really all Hello Kitty is. The fact that she has become popular world wide doesn't change the fact that she is really just a picture of a cat that Sanrio decided to put on stuff.


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Do you avoid all clothing with any sort of animal or picture on it? Because that is really all Hello Kitty is. The fact that she has become popular world wide doesn't change the fact that she is really just a picture of a cat that Sanrio decided to put on stuff.


We do. I don't own a single piece of clothing with anything on it. Some stripes or flowers, but mostly just solids. DH wears t-shirts, mostly from places we've been or Alumni shirts from our college. The girls each have a couple t-shirt with snowmen or penguins on it...but they were gifts from Grandma. Otherwise all of their wardrobe is polka dots and stripes and such.

I just don't find animal faces or ice skating bears that cute on kids clothes. They have been easy for me to avoid, so I do.

And I totally agree with your last sentence, which is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan.


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## Shaki (Mar 15, 2006)

Well I guess I fall in the "I don't have a prob with Hello Kitty" camp. I don't really have too much of an issue with "character" items in general. When DD was a baby I tried to avoid all character stuff because I thought I should (sort of just conforming to the "natural family code" or something)...In any case I eventually found that avoiding character items was not a big priority for our family. Just not my line in the sand. But I absolutely respect families who feel strongly about avoiding those items and would never gift a disney princess set, for example, to a family who was trying to avoid having stuff like that in their home.

DD does currently like Hello Kitty (she's 5) and has a few HK items (necklace, shirt). She has also in the past owned Dora pj's and blues clues pj's (both from thrift stores or garage sales) and she has a Minne Mouse shirt. I didn't notice an uptick in her consumerism when she got these items. I also didn't notice a decline in imaginative play and there was no clamoring to watch Dora all the time or anything. To DD they are just clothes that she likes.

I guess my line in the sand is shirts and stuff that say a brand name like "Gap" or "Abercrombie" across the front. Those are the ones that irk me. I don't know why I see them as somehow different than a tinkerbelle nightgown, but I do. I also don't like is the overly sexy stuff for little girls or the sarcastic slogan ones like "I'm with stupid" or mean things like that.

I think the other issue here is the ever popular grandparents gifting items the parents don't like issue. My FIL has truly eccentric and bizarre taste in gifts (that's a whole 'nother thread) and, although it's actually kind of an endearing quality, I've got no problem with immediately putting his gifts in the donate pile. But DD is old enough now to make her own decisions about those gifts I think and will let me know if she wants to return or donate something. SO if she really wants to keep the hot pink garbage can Grandpa sent her, fine. I've never thought of garbage cans as present material, but whatever...


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Okay....please don't freak out and flame me for this because I'm asking in all seriousness....

With regards to foreign sweatshops and child labor....yes, that is all really horrible. But I've asked random people in my life the following question and nobody seems to know the answer....if we take away their three cents a day, what will they do for income? I'm assuming that people in those conditions would be even worse off without the three cents a day? I'm not talking about slave labor where people have no choice in what they do. I'm talking about people who voluntarily go to work for three cents a day.


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## Octopus8 (Dec 26, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Okay....please don't freak out and flame me for this because I'm asking in all seriousness....
> 
> With regards to foreign sweatshops and child labor....yes, that is all really horrible. But I've asked random people in my life the following question and nobody seems to know the answer....if we take away their three cents a day, what will they do for income? I'm assuming that people in those conditions would be even worse off without the three cents a day? I'm not talking about slave labor where people have no choice in what they do. I'm talking about people who voluntarily go to work for three cents a day.


I'm a little scared to say so, but I agree with you!

My ex-husband is originally from China, most of his family still lives and works there (for very low amounts of money) - I have seen these things firsthand. If a sweatshop were to close down, it doesn't mean that these children/teens that work there will suddenly be able to go out and play and enjoy childhood and have full bellies. It just means that they will either have to beg, find another job at a factory, or find a different line of work. Of course, if the conditions at this particular factory were worse than others, maybe finding a different factory would be a good thing -- but it doesn't mean that if the factory closes down they will be able to go out and find a job that offers more reasonable pay.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Octopus8*
> 
> I'm a little scared to say so, but I agree with you!
> 
> My ex-husband is originally from China, most of his family still lives and works there (for very low amounts of money) - I have seen these things firsthand. If a sweatshop were to close down, it doesn't mean that these children/teens that work there will suddenly be able to go out and play and enjoy childhood and have full bellies. It just means that they will either have to beg, find another job at a factory, or find a different line of work. Of course, if the conditions at this particular factory were worse than others, maybe finding a different factory would be a good thing -- but it doesn't mean that if the factory closes down they will be able to go out and find a job that offers more reasonable pay.


What needs to be done is to force these exploitative corporations to pay a freaking living wage, stop using child labor, and put certain limitations on the work day. This will not happen though as long as people expect to be able to buy twenty four dollar shirts instead of four twenty dollar shirts. That is the problem with rampant consumerism...people think they need more, more, more as long as the items are cheap.

Thats why it is important to be educated about where you buy your clothes.

Musician Dad, Hello Kitty is a brand logo just like IZOD lizards and LACOSTE alligators. Except it is a brand logo marketed to children which makes it way worse. That right there differentiates HK from just random animals or objects that may appear on other clothing items. If your child wears HK she is advertising for Sanrio. She is a walking billboard to sell their crap.

Plus HK may not be Disney princesses but the message she sends is just as gendered. The overwhelming pink factor alone is







.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am the mother of an 8 year old.

looking back i am glad i didnt encourage or discourage the characters dd was into. it was a mood seh got into. did it and was out soon enough.

character stuff in our case did not equal consumerism.

heck we still have the HK telephone though almost all of the character toys - actually toys in general are gone and whatever is left over is coz the cat plays with it.

however since dd could hold her pencil her prefered characters have always been flower, heart and rainbows. as she grew older she added peace to her collection.

however in her case i will say a lot of the ones she was interested in were due to the art. her first love was spiderman which she had never watched on tv.

however for K her whole school supplies was hannah montana. but that was the extent of it.

however her love for her own 'characters' is strong and kicking.

she is today who she is because of our family ethics. she learnt from her dad and me. how we adults live our lives is what guided her to choose.

however dd is of the personality that if i say no to, it becomes bigger than it actually is. so the best way to say no is to say yes. its her extreme curiosity and her choice to experience it rather than take anyone's word for it that has taught me how to parent her.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> Musician Dad, Hello Kitty is a brand logo just like IZOD lizards and LACOSTE alligators. Except it is a brand logo marketed to children which makes it way worse. That right there differentiates HK from just random animals or objects that may appear on other clothing items. If your child wears HK she is advertising for Sanrio. She is a walking billboard to sell their crap.
> 
> ...


If you visit the Sanrio webpage, you'll see that a good portion of their merchandise is geared towards adults. Unless of course you know a child that can make use of a steering wheel cover, or a "Welcome to our wedding reception sign".

As for the pink... I do feel that is a strawman argument. Hello Kitty can be found in a wide array of colours, including blue and black.

Really, it does seem like the only reason some people here dislike Hello Kitty is because she's popular.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> If you visit the Sanrio webpage, you'll see that a good portion of their merchandise is geared towards adults. Unless of course you know a child that can make use of a steering wheel cover, or a "Welcome to our wedding reception sign".
> 
> ...


Hmmm...I was basing my HK info on what I remember from my childhood (when she was available only in pink sparkly backgrounded stuff), and on the Sanrio store here at the mall (where pink threw up inside and forgot to clean up) so







.

Most adults who _lurve_ Hello Kitty got hooked as children (or teens).

I guess I'm not reading the same thread as you because to me its pretty clear that she is disliked not because she is popular but that she is branded.

Well, well, well upon further internet inspection it certainly appears that HK has branched out. Hilarious:


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think it's hilarious that people who have snobbery towards "character stuff" turn around and justify Hello Kitty. Come on.

Hello Kitty is a huge international brand--regardless of what it started out as. Does Mickey Mouse not count as a character, because the man who created him also "did a lot of work" to make money off his own invention?

Hello Kitty is on vibrators, jewelry (real and kids'), pencil boxes (totally awesome tricked out pencil boxes, some of them, BTW), food products of every type imaginable, cell phones and other electronics, tv shows, games, clothing, toys, cultery, dishes, stationary, personal care products (toothpaste, toothbrushes, tampon containers), baby items (bottles, bibs, rattles, toys, crib bedding), household products (paper towel holders, linen, lunch/bento boxes, kitchen accessories)--you name it, there's probably a product for it in a way that makes Curious George look *waldorf*, man. Walk into a sanrio store and you will be assaulted by so much pink and girly that it would make Barbie jealous. And it's ALL PLASTIC and a lot of it is made in China! She doesn't count as a consumerist character? Um, well, at least you can't get a Dora vibrator yet.  Or maybe you can--if so I'd like to remain ignorant of that. 

P.S. I <3 Chococat.


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

I love Sanrio and all of their products. One thing that I do like about them is this past year they created a foundation to pull together supplies for needy hospitals. also hello kitty is a UNICEF ambassador according to several websites...I find that fascinating....


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I even have Hello Kitty soup mix packets (which, btw, have msg in them...ooops!). I have a plastic box that will mold a hardboiled egg into the shape of hello kitty's head.  I have cupcake/furikake hello kitty stencils.

As you can see, I don't really care about "character stuff", I am just shocked that some people who DO say that she "doesn't count" as a consumer character. Or maybe Americans just don't know the extend of licensed HK products out there?

I mean, look. Nestle "gives supplies to hospitals that don't have them" too. Disney does charitable activities. So does the parent company of sesame street (the sellouts).

If HK makes you happy, then great, I have a soft spot for Sanrio stuff too, since i grew up with it! But. Isn't it a tad awkward to then turn around and say "but I hate character stuff! Um, except the one i like, which isn't consumerist at all because...she was made up by the company that created her to be a corporate mascot, has capitalized on her appeal, enjoys an international following and makes a ton of money off of it, it wasn't ripped off from a previous book?"


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

She wasn't a character until her popularity made her into a character. IMO calling her a character is the same as calling the Channel or Calvin Klein logo a character. If you don't want Sanrio brand stuff, fine, but stop sticking Hello Kitty into the same category as Dora or Hannah Montana.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> The company Sanrio only exists to sell stuff with Kitty on it, right? I think I might feel better if DD had a shirt with WordGirl on it instead. At least she likes the WordGirl show and there is a purpose behind the character.


I LOVE WordGirl. I was so sad when dd decided she didn't want to be Wordgirl for Halloween but a fairy instead. (I blame Rainbow Magic books!)

On a more helpful note: You might suggest to your mom that your dd loves WordGirl. It's harder to find, but if Grandma wants to advertise a show, how about that one!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Octopus8*
> 
> I don't have anything insightful to say - Just that I love Hello Kitty, and have since I was about your daughter's age.


See, and Hello Kitty completely freaks me out because she has no mouth. How does she eat? Talk?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> i am the mother of an 8 year old.
> 
> ...


Mother of a 6 1/2 year old here (and a 9 year old), and we have had the same experience. Ds did not get more into consumerism because his great aunt bought him every Thomas the Tank Engine train known to human kind, nor because of the 2-3 Thomas Tshirts he owned. He also owned a lovely Dora shirt. (All the clothes were bought on Ebay, so used.)

Dd has been exposed to the Disney princesses, Barbie, Hanna Montana and Justin Bieber (not sure who exposed her to him). She's firmly rejected them all. NOT because of anything I've said, but because she was just uninterested. My SIL is majorly into Disney and bought her Disney books. Great aunt bought Disney books, stickers, etc. We owned one Barbie, which dd gave away last Christmas because she never played with it.

IMO, your kids will take your values in more than you realize. A few gifts from Grandma now and then won't change that. (Just don't give ME anything with that evil cat on it. She freaks me out!)


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> If you visit the Sanrio webpage, you'll see that a good portion of their merchandise is geared towards adults. Unless of course you know a child that can make use of a steering wheel cover, or a "Welcome to our wedding reception sign"
> 
> As for the pink... I do feel that is a strawman argument. Hello Kitty can be found in a wide array of colours, including blue and black.


I have to wonder if HK is geared towards adults now because they are cashing in on the love of HK that these adults had in the 80s when they were kids...


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## sublimeliving (Dec 21, 2010)

This is just my opinion-

Your dd is four years old, and the presents that are coming in the mail are her presents. I could see that you may want to jump in and give your opinion if the present was physically dangerous or provocative, but that's not the case. I have 2 dds, and one is almost an adult. From raising her, I learned that independent thought is very important. It creates an independent woman that doesn't look to someone else to let them know what to do. Your dd should/needs to think for herself (you can explain your thought process, but in the end leave it up to her). If I was a mom that picked what my dds wore, I would much rather they wear Hello Kitty than Barbie or princess attire.

Just my 2 cents.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl*
> 
> What needs to be done is to force these exploitative corporations to pay a freaking living wage, stop using child labor, and put certain limitations on the work day. This will not happen though as long as people expect to be able to buy twenty four dollar shirts instead of four twenty dollar shirts. That is the problem with rampant consumerism...people think they need more, more, more as long as the items are cheap.
> 
> ...


I was just looking at the Sanrio webpage, and the cheapest t-shirt is $30. There's even one for $50. Maybe not all companies are the same, even if they do sell character merchandise.

As for things being gendered and pink....I love pink, and purple, and teal. When I was a child/teen, I resisted wearing anything in those colors because I didn't want people to view me as a girly-girl. That's just as gendered. Now I own a purple car and my bag for work is pink and black, and if it makes you (and others) pukey, then so be it. I like what I like, and it's not because of Disney Princesses or Hello Kitty.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

You should all take 53 minutes of your time to watch this: Outstanding, John Pilger. Please, please watch it...it's pretty short, you can bang it out in a naptime and it's 100% fact. The guy is a world class, Grade A journalist (a dying breed, I fear) and you won't be sad you watched it.

You have to remember that a lot of the people in the world who are enslaved in cheap labor traps for their ENTIRE lives are trapped there because of "AIDE" sent to their country by the IMF/World Bank. Poor nations take "aide" from rich nations, which are actually PREDATORY LOANS with intense interest attached to them. What is put up as collateral? Why, the labor and FUTURE LABOR of the people who live there, naturally. In many cases, the bush league, corrupt governments these loans are given to, do very little to develop infrastructure, education opportunities, etc...and a large percentage of the money is used for things that make it a "sweeter gig" to be a "leader" in that country. The rest of the money is used to fix/build gigantic factories...because part of the loan agreement involves "trade agreements" which mean people like GAP, etc can come in and exploit the peoples work by paying them -------practically nothing------- to make boxers, teeshirts whatever for the rest of their lives...most of the money that is paid for this work is not paid to the workers...it goes toward paying back this "AIDE" (read: LOOOAAANNN) that we rich countries gave to this poor country...a loan that is NEVER EVER meant to be paid back. A loan which could NEVER be paid back even if every person in the whole country worked 28 hour days, 10 days a week for the rest of their lives. The interest is so intensely outrageous that no reasonable person who knows about it could believe that they could ever pay it back.

This is the way, in the "post-overtly imperialistic west" world that we continue to rape and pillage in the poor places to support life in the rich places.

You can look at me and say that you buying this crap supports these people all you want...but you must understand. It's not just teeshirts....it's everything from the coffe cup in your hand, to the braces on your kids teeth. The movies you watch, the chair you're sitting in...look around your house and see the life-waste you live in. Our economy is propped up on war and the enslavement of people born into unlucky circumstances. THEIR economy is propped up on US buying their cheap goods. What happens if we all opt out of that?

The oppressive systems of the world are what keep the divide between rich and poor so wide and deep...and getting wider and deeper every day. I would rather die than be involved in anything that would keep my children oppressed in a system of slave labor for all the rest of their lives. You can say 'yeah, but what would they do for money without my $0.03 a day?" - wow. Do you realize that your children are gonna be saying the same thing? For how many more generations will we continue on this path? How many of their generations have to live this way before we'll start looking at our culpability and decide we don't want it anymore?

The way these people are living is not acceptable. I would rather starve the system by opting out in hopes that it could save their future generations, even if it meant plunging them into further poverty by taking away that $0.03. Our government is corrupt, their government is corrupt....are you seeing a trend? Big people in big places deciding what populations get to be poor and what populations get to be culpable. I'm sick and tired of it. I'm morally opposed to it. If everyone stops, if everyone opts out...we have some power. But so long as the masses sit there saying "well, it's work like a slave and be KIND OF starving to death or beg on the streets and ACTUALLY starve...so, you know. That's why I support slavery" - well, that's a hell of a choice to make, but that's just how it's gonna be. Every time you spend a dollar on this slave labor crap, YOU have a slave. These people are slaves, FOR US...You are a slave owner, I am a slave owner. Our beautiful children, who we teach love and respect for life to...they are slave owners, every time we decide that someone elses kids life and happiness is less important.

But you know...I think a lot of this is about to resolve itself. Because we take for granted our status as "rich nation"....but we're actually not very rich. We're living off the fumes here, of what used to be true financial wealth. People throw around terms like "GPD" and "National Debt" like they don't actually mean very much. People hear things like "China and OPEC Nations dumping US Dollars" and they don't realize how very very much their EVERY DAY LIVES are about to be effected by the world abandoning the Dollar Ship.

Just as much as it is dangerous for the poor nations, with populations too busy working their fingers to the bone for our cheap goods, to develop things which could actually make them rich (actual agricultural commodity based trade development) or education for their youth....WE ARE STUCK IN THE SAME TRAP. We hardly make ANYTHING anymore...we don't have anything but OUR DOLLAR. The fact that our dollar is still the worlds reserve currency, is the only thing keeping this charade going. How many of you understand that? I'm not talking about some Glenn Beck looney toons conspiracy stuff...I'm talking, ACTUAL reality...we are not stable, our food prices are soaring (haven't *quite* hit the grocery stores so hard yet, but wait for it, the National Grocers Association or whatever they're called just reported that they have no choice but to start passing along this inflation to the consumer, they can't eat it anymore, prices are going to start going through the roof) - our national debt is too big to even discuss with serious face. Please watch this, 1 minute 39 seconds of genius: 



 Our ACTUAL Unemployment figures are in the 18% range and these job reports, etc that our government keeps putting out are BS...look at the fine print people, we're being fed massive number manipulation to make us believe that things are going to get back to "business as usual" - but it's not. We're not going to "come out of" this recession. Do you know what Quantitative Easing really even is? Please, again, watch the 1 minute 39 second video posted above so you can understand that we're past the point of "bouncing back" - we have to change. Our Economic Vehicle is careening down the highway...and it is broken, not "needs a new oil filter" broken...more like "the axles falling off" broken. It won't work anymore, it has to be rebuilt and WE THE PEOPLE have to KNOW that so we can demand that it's rebuilt in a way we all support from a moral perspective.

Our whole system is resetting and needs to change...it's OKAY...it's GOOD actually, because the human cost of the way we've been told we "deserve" to live, is too great. We need to start thinking about how we want to live, what we WANT our system to look like, so that we can build that. This "well, but what would they do without their sweatshop job" - is not going to get us there...we need courageous, innovators...not on a large scale, just every one person deciding in their own life that they are opting out, that they aren't going to be a part of it anymore.

Since the Central Bank (no, the Federal Reserve is NOT a Federal Institution) came to be in 1913 via the Federal Reserve Act, the US Dollar has lost 98% of it's purchasing power. Our dollar is so without value that it's no longer a stable choice for the world reserve currency. The UN has already stated that the dollar needs to be dumped...if you don't know what that is going to do to your life, how that is going to impact the future your children are heading toward, you need to put your mastercard down, close out of your Amazon.com window and start doing some research.

This is not a scary time, this is an exciting time! We are being forced to look at how we live...and we can change it. That $0.03 won't be necessary any more, if the peoples of the poor nations we live on can rise up and enjoy their resources, instead of watching them trucked and shipped away, to be enjoyed by the West, while they are stuck producing cheap goods all their lives. The people of the world are no longer okay with the divisive and oppressive ways in which the top 3% of the worlds ruling class have been running things for the past century+....and things are GOING to change...if we all pay attention and do our part, they can change for the better.

Look around your house. Look at the blood, sweat and tears we live on - its dripping off of most everything you own. Look at the misery we support so our lives can seem beautiful. Imagine, a mudpit, with THOUSANDS of small, thrown together shacks...miles and miles of shacks...with small winding, mudfilled avenues...all leading to a gigantic factory in the very center of it. Dirty children absolutely EVERYWHERE, who spend their entire days looking for water and food. This is not a tearjerking story meant to guilt you..this is the simple fact of daily reality for a TON of people who make the things we love to buy.

If you can watch the video I posted at the top, which is not a sensationalized, in your face guilt tactic movie...if you can watch it, and still come here and post about "but what would they do without the wages they get, even if it is close to nothing" - I would be shocked. Disappointed and disgusted, but very shocked.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

I agree about the gendering of HK. I also agree that HK is a 'character' and the sole purpose of the character is to sell crap. it's called branding. it makes the brand easy to identify with and purchase and clamor for if you're a child.

the child labor issues are horrid. it's a system. until capitalism disappears, as someone posted, it's not going to improve. shutting a factory won't make life better for workers. shutting down a system in which workers are exploited and creating a world in which people don't make crap for other people to profit from might make a difference. but i'm old and cynical and one person not buying a hello kitty tshirt isn't going to get us there. people thinking about consumerist behaviors and engaging in dialogue-- like we're doing here-- about it might possibly get us on the path.

at any rate, i don't like HK but realize that i am an enormous hypocrite b/c i think it's appropriate to put starwars clothing on my child. and i realize that i do it for the same reasons people embrace HK-- it's a call to nostalgia, which is another marketing technique. retro advertising for those of us who grew up in the 70's and 80's (and 90's?) is rampant. but this can only happen cause around then is when the character/marketing stuff began.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Now, see....that's exactly what I knew would happen here. You have twisted my words to mean that I support child labor and sweatshops, when I specifically stated that I was asking an honest question.

As for my children, I have taught them not to put words in others' mouths.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> You can say 'yeah, but what would they do for money without my $0.03 a day?" - wow. Do you realize that your children are gonna be saying the same thing?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

No, 2xy, I didn't put words in your mouth. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Okay....please don't freak out and flame me for this because I'm asking in all seriousness....
> 
> With regards to foreign sweatshops and child labor....yes, that is all really horrible. But I've asked random people in my life the following question and nobody seems to know the answer....if we take away their three cents a day, what will they do for income? I'm assuming that people in those conditions would be even worse off without the three cents a day? I'm not talking about slave labor where people have no choice in what they do. I'm talking about people who voluntarily go to work for three cents a day.


You said you're not talking about "actual" slave labor. Please explain to me, how three cents a day...or, like the small children who make hello kitty toys for McDonalds for 16 hours a day at the pay rate of $3/day (which is not enough to BUY a happy meal)...is not slave labor? You use the words "choice" and "voluntarily" in very strange ways, too. Like there's really whole lot of choice involved, when an 11 year old girl says she's 16 so the factory boss who KNOWS she's not 16 lets her come and work like a maniac for 16 hours a day and then sleep on a wooden pallet for 5 hours a night, surrounded by the same fumes that had her fainting all day. Yeah...we're not talking about ACTUAL slave labor...just little girls like her who DECIDE VOLUNTARILY to go work for that $0.03.

"I'm assuming that people in those conditions would be even worse off without the three cents a day" - yeah, you assumed right. I think that's a "no brainer", because people who "voluntarily" go to work for slave wages don't usually have other awesome opportunities floating around, right...RIGHT? So, tell me how that thought, the energy of that idea, is not supportive of "letting them keep" that three cents per day? That three cents which IS, for all intents and purposes, slave labor wage.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

I don't believe that HK or any other character breeds materialism or consumerism. I believe people buying too much stuff does, though. We explain this type of thing to our kids and really just buy them toys on their b-day and for Christmas. We don't limit or forbid characters, but I can't really think of any character toys my kids have. Well, my son has a few action figures I guess. On the rare occasion that they get to choose a toy, we give them a budget and let them choose. They are pretty mindful of over-consumption and working conditions throughout the world. If they get a gift from family, we let them use it as they wish. If they want to donate it, that's fine. Just because someone buys them a Zhu-zhu pet or something, we're not going to get them all kinds of accessories to go with it. I've learned that simply saying, "No, we're not going to buy that toy." actually works!

My kids are 9 and almost 7, so I think they're able to understand this. Although we're been preaching the word to them since they were much younger. We lead by example too. We don't go out to shop just for the sake of shopping. When we need something, we do product research before buying. I think modeling the best way to teach children.

FTR, I was a MAJOR HK fan as a child. I had all kinds of HK stuff. As a matter of fact, my kids now use my HK scissors that I've had for 30 years! So, being a character collector as a child did not turn me into a mass consuming, materialistic adult. I think it is kind of natural for kids to want that type of thing. By not imposing strict rules on my kids with regards to characters and giving them choices in their toys and clothes, I'm hoping to prevent rebellion when they're older.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> No, 2xy, I didn't put words in your mouth. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
> 
> ...


Are there no adults who go to work and go home at the end of the day, and receive pitiful wages? I daresay there are. Yes, you misunderstood what I said, and yes, you put words in my mouth.

I would also assume that $3/day goes much further in certain societies than it does here, seeing as one can provide food, clothing, schooling, and medical care for a child overseas for just $30/month.

If you had to choose between starving at home or working horrible hours in a horrible factory, which would you pick? I understand your outrage at the situation, but please don't interpret my logic to mean that I'm supportive of taking advantage of disadvantaged people. What I'm asking is....what would they do for cash and food if these jobs weren't available? Can you answer that?


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom*
> 
> FTR, I was a MAJOR HK fan as a child. I had all kinds of HK stuff. As a matter of fact, my kids now use my HK scissors that I've had for 30 years! So, being a character collector as a child did not turn me into a mass consuming, materialistic adult. *I think it is kind of natural for kids to want that type of thing*. By not imposing strict rules on my kids with regards to characters and giving them choices in their toys and clothes, I'm hoping to prevent rebellion when they're older.


I just wanted to point the bolded out because it is a sentiment I've seen and heard quite a bit.

I don't know that it is natural for kids to want Hello Kitty (or the like). I think it is something that we are no longer surprised by. I think that advertising and nostalgia and "I loved X as a kid and I'm fine now" have lulled us into thinking that it is natural when what we might mean is that it is accepted or okay.

My DD didn't give a rat's tail about Hello Kitty until Grandma piled it on and went on and on about how cute it was and how cute DD was when she was carrying around her little cat head purse. Grandma's advertising was VERY effective, but that doesn't make my DD's fondness for the Kitty 'natural'.

And just to clarify, as the OP:

*I'm breathing.

*I'm not making a big deal of this at home

*I'm not devaluing my daughter's opinions

*DD has TONS of opportunities to express herself through mediums other than Hello Kitty

*We still may talk to the Inlaws about how we feel about HK, but it is not a 'red phone' issue at the moment.

I really appreciate the good discussion on this! Thank you!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Are there no adults who go to work and go home at the end of the day, and receive pitiful wages? I daresay there are. Yes, you misunderstood what I said, and yes, you put words in my mouth.
> 
> ...


Yeah, since you're so adamant that it matters, I can answer that. They would beg. They would go find another factory. They would steal. They would try to leave the country. They would engage in illegal opportunities or prostitution or whatever else. There are many other horrible choices for people faced with life long factory work. In China, $3 a day doesn't get you a lot at all, ever since they imported our crazy consumer culture disease. $3 will barely get you a happy meal in hong kong. You think these people are accessing healtcare with their $3, because it's so much cheaper in China? I'm really confused by your world view. "I would also assume that $3/day goes a lot further in other places" - mama, that is such a strange thing to say...the underbelly of that thought is a truly ugly sight to behold. What are you trying to communicate with that sentiment, because I'm SURE I must be missing it.

Frankly, I don't understand how your question is a question. You keep asking "What else would they do, what else would they do" like you are subsidizing their best option - you are either assuming that they might have other better options but pick a life of factory work because they think it will be fun...or you KNOW that they don't have better options and are asking the question anyway. Which is it?

Okay, if they didn't have the factory work you so willingly help to supply, they'd have something just as crappy if not more crappy. Can you move on now to the part where you tell me in what way that is relevant? How does my answering that question for you, help you to decide whether or not you will continue to support this system of financial oppression? If they DID have better options, but chose factory work, maybe you wouldn't feel as bad? Or since they DON'T have better options, you don't want to take away that source of income? What is it?

Oh, and yeah, most of the people throughout the world who work for nothing all day ARE adults. Many of them, have been working hard like that since they were children themselves. I don't understand why adults forced into those working conditions is any better or more worthy of support than children working in those conditions? Why does that matter at all, that some of them are adults? Not all of them are children...so it's not SOOO bad?

Were I forced with the choice of starving in my home, or wasting my entire life away in a factory making nike shoes and teeshirts for you, I would choose to make your shoes and shirts. But I would sit and do this, all the while, dreaming of a better life for my own children and wishing that the people in the world who had a more important voice than mine, would rise up and fight for my kids future because I couldn't <--- I would NOT be daydreaming about people in other places hearing of my plight and asking each other, "Well, but without that $3 a day, what WOULD they be doing for money" - it's just so completely beside the point that it's not a question worth asking.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm the wrong person to chime in here, but I will anyway... We have always loved our characters here. For me, it started with a Snoopy Halloween sweatshirt in 1970. Then, Mickey Mouse.

It did change over the years... I noticed it when Star Wars came out, and you could buy T-shirts with shiny rubbery star wars logos. I wanted one. (the logo melted in the dryer) Soon, everything was Star Wars, or ET.

Now, characters are everywhere. But, I still loved them. My daughter loved Simba, Baby Bop, Barney, and when she got to school, she loved the Sanrio school supplies.

We bought the water filled jiggle cups from Disney Store with Winnie the Pooh in them. We are big Winnie the Pooh fans around here. I wouldn't decorate my house in that stuff, but I love WTP. I do think everything in the Disney Store is garbage, so I rarely ever bought anything there, but only because it's so junky. If it was well made, I'd have bought it. My daughter went through a phase of only wanting Lisa Frank school supplies... which were also garbage. I did buy that stuff to a point, but it was so poorly made that I eventually put a stop to that phase, and cut her back to folders and a lunchbox because who cares how long folders last, and she's going to lose two lunch boxes a year anyway.

But, the Sanrio stuff was actually very well made. She's had some of those mechanical pencils since 1999, and they are still her best pencils. We still have some Hello Kitty bento boxes that have lasted since 1999 also. I did see that they make Hello Kitty Sex toys... that actually bothered me a little. I don't even want to think of Hello Kitty in that way. I've seen grown women dressing up as hello Kitty to go out on the town.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

The whole "what would they do if they didn't have a 3 cent an hour job" thing is complex.

There is no single step that would solve this - but I don't think that's a good enough reason to shrug and say you are actually doing some kid a favor by buying crap made from child labor.

There are many forces in play that led to such poverty, and global trade and manufacturing are among those. When people are made to be dependent on foreign wages, they can be left with no choice but to force their children to work in slavery (and no, the children are not there voluntarily, they are sent there by their desperate parents and made to stay by cruel supervisors).

Why are the families desperate? Complicated, but the answer is exploitation. And participating in the exploitation is not going to help them. The families don't own anything (due to exploitation) so they have no choice but to be exploited further.

I am not as familiar with the structure and history of China, but as a parallel, I can talk a little about why Africa is so poor. Africa is a rich land, full of resources and food. And it was precisely this wealth that invited other people to move in and exploit it. Now, rather than families growing their own food and reaping the resources from their own land, they are growing cash crops and selling it overseas. Because of the global market, they are forced to sell at the lowest possible value, because otherwise someone somewhere will underbid and they will lose the value of their harvest (and the workers can't just bring, say, unsold coffee beans home to their families and expect to nourish them with it).

In China, I think it's fair to say that a widening shift between haves and have-nots have further increased the opportunity for exploitation. When you have nothing, not even 1/10th of an acre, you must go to work for the one who owns the building, owns the land, owns the business. And of course even that person is being exploited by US corporations who will happily switch to another factory or farm (in the same country or elsewhere) at the drop of a hat, if they are offered the product at a fraction of a cent less per unit, leaving the previous community high and dry.

All this so we can enjoy cheap pencil boxes that break almost as soon as you use them, that we will stop caring about almost as soon as we get them in the bag at the checkout line.

No, not buying this crap isn't going to magically transport these children and their families to Happy Land. However, not buying this crap WILL prevent or lessen further destruction of communities and families. These factories exist and are so horribly run because of our demand, and because we demand it at a cost that is frankly unattainable. When we buy a pencil box at WalMart for $0.50, we are not paying the cost for it, we have passed along that cost to people who can't afford it (not to mention things like oil subsidies funded by taxpayers and so on).

We need to stop buying things because they are "cute" and start asking ourselves, do we need this? Will this have a positive effect on our lives? If so, for how long? When will it end up in the trash? Is the $0.50 I pay today for a cheap trinket worth the pain it causes on one end, and the massive pile of trash on the other? Will my purchase of this add to a growing demand for it, and cause more disruptions in communities? Is it better for people to sell us this stuff at a rate that defies the cost of even just shipping it overseas, or better for them to sell their own crafts and food to each other?


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I just wanted to point the bolded out because it is a sentiment I've seen and heard quite a bit.
> 
> ...


I don't think the character attraction is natural, but just toys in general. I'd be lying if I said that it didn't bother me at times. I was going on and on about it to dh one time. He happened to be in the midst of reading "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" at the time (published in 1943, before TV). He mentioned that one of the most important things to the children in that book was the ability to buy a new toy. He's mentioned the same thing occurring in several Charles Dickens books he's read. Kids like toys. Kids have always like toys. THAT is natural. I think when we teach our kids about over-consumption, we are not telling them that it is okay. I was just trying to reassure you that just because your dd likes HK right now, it has no bearing on how she will feel as an adult. I'm not in any way saying that "I loved X as a kid and I'm fine now."


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Doodlebugsmom*
> 
> I don't think the character attraction is natural, but just toys in general. I'd be lying if I said that it didn't bother me at times. I was going on and on about it to dh one time. He happened to be in the midst of reading "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" at the time (published in 1943, before TV). He mentioned that one of the most important things to the children in that book was the ability to buy a new toy. He's mentioned the same thing occurring in several Charles Dickens books he's read. Kids like toys. Kids have always like toys. THAT is natural. I think when we teach our kids about over-consumption, we are not telling them that it is okay. I was just trying to reassure you that just because your dd likes HK right now, it has no bearing on how she will feel as an adult. I'm not in any way saying that "I loved X as a kid and I'm fine now."


And I think this is the crux of my issue. DD was perfectly happy with the things she has. She LOVES reading the Little House books (the beginner ones, right now) and totally understands how Laura treasured her one doll Charlotte. She is in no way lacking special things in her life. There is that need for play and creativity and special things. I get it. But why, oh why, to adults feel the need to facilitate the love of overly hyped, overly marketed characters? gah!


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> And I think this is the crux of my issue. DD was perfectly happy with the things she has. She LOVES reading the Little House books (the beginner ones, right now) and totally understands how Laura treasured her one doll Charlotte. She is in no way lacking special things in her life. There is that need for play and creativity and special things. I get it. But why, oh why, to adults feel the need to facilitate the love of overly hyped, overly marketed characters? gah!


It's a battle most of us are constantly fighting. I do think it gets a little better as they get older (as far as characters go, anyway). It also gets easier for them to understand why we, as their parents, feel the way we do. At least that has been the case for my kids.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

So character crap only counts as character crap if it's not "well made"?

Sanrio licences a huge amount of products, and I daresay, like most corporations, has been getting cheaper over the years. I have had well made disney items, and a relative sent DD a plastic HK coin purse that ripped the first time she opened it (and it was a licensed product, not a knockoff). I have noticed that they tend to send the cheapest crap to the American stores. Hmmm.

As a pp said, I think a lot of people think stuff "doesn't count" if it's stuff *they like*. Star Wars is an excellent example. Yes, it was a creative movie, but right from the start Lucas tied in his stuff to marketing in astoundingly innovative ways. Most stuff that is looked down at here is big because of the same. I really don't understand why people are in denial about Sanrio being a consumerist corporation who makes their money by hawking cute characters that appeal to kids. they even have their own theme parks, for goodness sake. Is it just the "exoticness" that makes people go into denial? I don't think sanrio is quite as in your face here in the US or Canada as they are over in Japan and in other parts of asia--but don't people here constantly harp on American corps. like Disney vomiting out their consumer culture all around the world?

What's different, except for you like it?

I am still stunned that people would say that HK isn't used to sell a bunch of useless merchandise to children on behalf of a corporation (is that not what a character does for their character toy/item)?

I think that is why this whole "I'm going to be the better parent and be mad at anyone who might dare send my child character toys!" really gets to me sometimes, especially when it is accompanied by "Oh, no, <insert character used in everything from McD happy meal toys to theme parks to huge diversity of consumer items> doesn't count!! It's cute, and at least it's not as bad as <character I don't like>." HK was designed to be appealing and cute and to get you to buy stuff from the company! So was My Melody, Keroppi, Chococat, ect.

If you like HK, then great! I do too! But don't say it's not a character used to hawk crap. That is just silly.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> The whole "what would they do if they didn't have a 3 cent an hour job" thing is complex.
> 
> ...


This is a very good post!

It's true that stopping our purchases of items built on the backs of the poor people in other places (AND in the US) will not stop it overnight...but buying local, demanding quality and buying a few well made shirts for less money made by people who are able to support themselves with the wages they earn, instead of buying a WHOLE BUNCH of crappy teeshirts for practically nothing, made by people who are living like slaves....WILL shift our trade policies and WILL send a message to corporate overlords everywhere.

If you buy less goods that are more expensive, but of higher quality and made ethically, you'll end up spending the same amount of money as you would have if you bought a whole bunch of crappy stuff that doesn't last and is unethically manufactured.

Obviously, the model of governance that most of the worldd leaders uses is inherently flawed and clearly, it's gonna take more than boycotting Polo or whatever to transform these broken, oppressive systems....but one more person deciding they are sick of supporting it...is one person closer to the masses standing up and shouting "I am NOT FREE, if EVERYONE is not free".


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I get it. But why, oh why, to adults feel the need to facilitate the love of overly hyped, overly marketed characters? gah!


because of social conditioning. gpas and gmas have been taught to buy cute things for kids. no plain stuff.

however to me - and this is just my opinion - this is not worth the discussion and time spent.

like pp said children love toys. or characters. and candy. they ask and ask and ask. and you dont get them everything. maybe a few. you dont drown in them. i mean i find no one really protesting winnie the pooh. i've seen whole bedrooms done in winnie the pooh stuff. but somehow i have found in many places winnie the pooh is a taboo topic when talking about characters. and in time they get out of it.

for that matter i buy a few things that i dont approve of for dd for her to get hey they werent all that they were made out to be. spending $20 on hannah montana stuff for school supplies showed dd that at 5.

however really the more insidious ones i dont like are the underground characters. they stand out to me because they are the exact ones dd loves - which has nothing to do with she likes what she saw. its something she has loved since she was a little girl when as a 2 year old she named herself rainbowheart. yet almost everything is about flowers, hearts, rainbows and peace signs. there is not much choice.

i hate the gender based designs and a difference even at age 2. why arent there unisex clothes for kids at that age?


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Are there no adults who go to work and go home at the end of the day, and receive pitiful wages? I daresay there are. Yes, you misunderstood what I said, and yes, you put words in my mouth.
> 
> ...


I think you are asking the wrong question. Rather...what would they do if you used the power of your dollars to instead support companies that were fair trade? Factories that pay the employees a fair wage and provide humane working conditions? The stuff you buy from these companies is going to cost more, and these companies are going to spend much less on advertising (so not as much *bling* for your buck...although I dare say American Apparel is the exception to this one) but the more people who support this model the more factories will open that have humane working conditions.

Its sort of like curing the ills of capitalism from within the system.

Of course it means being knowledgeable about the conditions in mainstream clothing factories, and using that knowledge to guide your purchasing decisions. as opposed to figuring that the system is so far gone that it doesn't matter what you buy or where you buy it.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Food products, coffee, etc:

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/fairtrade/coffee/retailers.html

http://www.greenamerica.org/programs/fairtrade/products/wheretobuy.cfm <-- I really like this page, lots of links to good stores.

http://vision.ucsd.edu/~kbranson/stopchocolateslavery/main.html

VERY cool organization: http://www.fairtradefederation.org/

In the UK, great links to clothing, etc:

http://www.speak.org.uk/thebigdress/fairtrade

That's just me going into my bookmarked pages for two seconds and copy pasting. There are a MILLION easy, cost effective and even cost CUTTING ways to buy more ethically produced products. Fair Trade stuff is out there..just waiting to be bought.

Even just *thinking* more about what you buy, when you buy it, etc makes a huge difference in your habits. When you grocery shop less and buy more at a time, using meal plans and lists, you save a bundle and end up with less crap. The same is true for everything else you buy...less trips to the clothing store, means less crap. Buy thoughtfully and you'll see a huge difference in how much money you spend. Take it a step further and shop locally and put your money into your local community...spend money on your neighbors awesome creations...start a clothing swap with moms you know. There are so many ways to opt out of supporting corporate giants with bad business policy and opt IN to the companies trading fair, to using what is around you that is still perfectly good and supporting economies close to home and abroad in healthy ways which give back to ACTUAL working humans.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

recycling is also another wonderful way of not contributing.

thrift stores are a great way not to feed into the corporations.

thinking about what price you are paying is also a great idea.

when you pay 50 cents for a banana do you ever wonder why banana is so cheap? we cannot grow any banana. they are all exported. shouldnt they by $5 a pound. how can they be cheaper than potatoes? and when you start researching and discover companies like Dole and Chiquita and then find what banana trade is doing to countries like Jamaica... can you still eat a banana everyday?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> The whole "what would they do if they didn't have a 3 cent an hour job" thing is complex.
> 
> ...


Yes, this. The "3 cents is better than nothing" thing reminds me of people who buy puppies from puppy mills, saying, "Well, someone has to take them, right? Otherwise where would all these dogs go?" without realizing that if we all stopped supporting the puppy mills, puppy mills would cease to be profitable and would not exist anymore.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't know if I'd make an issue of it with the grandparent yet. It sounds like your dd has mostly not been getting character stuff from grandma. If she starts getting a lot of it from grandma then I think you'd need to have a chat about your preferences.

I think your problem is mostly with your dd liking something you'd rather she did not though. Maybe she wouldn't have liked Hello Kitty if it wasn't a gift but maybe she would. It's a cute cat. Maybe you'd be the parent posting that your dc is turning every toy into a gun when you are anti-gun play. At some point your dc would latch on to something that you don't like and you have to figure out how you are going to deal with it.

I see 3 options:

1. You can forbid all character stuff. Your dd must only wear or play with items you deem appropriate.

2. You can choose to allow character stuff but with limits.

3. You can just let your dd go crazy over whatever character she likes.

With my dd I've learned that it is best to just try to set some limits to her obsessions with a character (branded or not).

We told dd long ago that if she wanted to collect character stuff that she was mostly going to buy it with her own money or make it ourselves. That seemed to help stem the tide a lot and the character items are now more well chosen. Dd is happy with just a few items and we ride out the phase.

I might let her get a sheet set with a character on it if she needs new sheets but her comforter has to be plain.

When it is time to buy new clothes I'll probably let her choose 1 character item but most of her wardrobe has to be plain.

If she wants a character as her birthday theme that's fine. She can go crazy with that. I can make the Scooby Doo cake and make themed decorations or games.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2xy*
> 
> Are there no adults who go to work and go home at the end of the day, and receive pitiful wages? I daresay there are. Yes, you misunderstood what I said, and yes, you put words in my mouth.
> 
> ...


let me try to frame a response to that. while working for paltry cents a day might work to help families eke out a minimal sort of survival, engagement in labor of this sort serves to prevent workers from expending energy into collective action for higher pay. it serves to keep workers involved in this system, by which the meager amount of earnings can be held over their heads to manipulate them into complicity.

i think that maybe, were these exploitive environments to disappear, the workers would be able to take action, would not be so caught up in the struggle for daily life, could focus energy upon building their communities a little more. being exploited does not make it easy to escape exploitation. people frequently defend their exploiters as well, so breaking free of that system might tip that balance.

i respect your question. i think it's very important to discuss issues like this in an open framework and question this. if people are unable to present a valid argument against something rather than knee-jerk reactions, nothing can change and understanding cannot happen.

and, let me reiterate, that your choice to buy or not buy a tshirt isn't really going to do anything to change the cycle and oppression caused by capitalism-- folks, it's really not. you can purchase 'green' products, but consumerism of any kind, won't change this, as one person stated above, there's not a way to tell that your organic cotton was ethically grown or harvested.

to answer the question if i would rather starve at home or work that factory job, i would choose to do what i do now, which is challenge that framework.

i am an anarchist, and if you're really interested in the careful analysis of those particular issues, you might want to check out this http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionC as it is much more succinct and clearly stated than any comments i could make about it.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MusicianDad*
> 
> Really, it does seem like the only reason some people here dislike Hello Kitty is because she's popular.


I don't think that's the only reason at all, but to clarify about the 'popularity' thing (especially since I was one of the posters to use that word) -- it's not like I would say, Oh everyone else likes HK so I don't. It's more that along with popularity comes that obsessiveness, which TBH totally freaks me out. It's not enough to have a Thomas tv show and some little toy trains to go along with it -- there's also the Thomas backpack, Thomas hat, Thomas crayons, Thomas bandaids, Thomas underwear. They have no value except for the character on them. And of course all of those things are expensive (someone told me a Thomas train is $20?!??!?!?! For a little 3" not-well-made toy?????) and the kids just HAVE to have it, and the more they have, the more they want. I don't have a problem with collecting, and I collected coins, stamps, folding fans, all sorts of things when I was a kid. But I worked -- rather than paid -- to acquire the items in my collections, and each piece was unique & special & an item being 'rare' made it more valuable... to me this is a huge contrast from walking into Walmart & buying the Dora tshirt, and then the barrettes to match, oh and and the socks, and the doll, and the notebook... and then you go to school and almost all the kids have the same 'popular' character-branded lunchbags, except for the one kid whose parents couldn't afford to buy them, he only has a striped lunchbag which he thought was so cool until he saw what everyone else had & realized he didn't fit in....

Obviously there's more to this than I can easily explain in a short post, but that's just part of the reason that I'm anti-HK and other characters...


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> let me try to frame a response to that. while working for paltry cents a day might work to help families eke out a minimal sort of survival, engagement in labor of this sort serves to prevent workers from expending energy into collective action for higher pay. it serves to keep workers involved in this system, by which the meager amount of earnings can be held over their heads to manipulate them into complicity.
> 
> ...


I love that site, thanks! I'm going to have to add it to my list of alternative news sources.

I agree that capitalism is not going to save us...but I think it's worth mentioning that the system we are living with is not actually capitalism. Kind of like how Democrazy is not going to save us and is a horrid system...but isn't actually the system we're living under, either!

I also agree that not buying a HK tee is not going to topple the giants of industry and bring oppressors to their knees...but in a world where we have more US citizens running around screaming about "on noesss, teh socialists are coming with their medicine!!" than ever, since the cold war era - completely oblivious to the corporate oligarchy/fascist state around them...it really feels like getting people to examine where they put their money and make better choices about how they consume is a better first step.

I know that when I am talking to friends and family, I have more takers with "hey, can you please boycott xyz-brand? Did you know that they do xyz to xyz in xyz country? Yeah, it's messed up, tell you friends" - than I used to get with "Why don't you realize that everything you know about your way of life, political system, monetary system, etc is a farce?" - you know? I used to get lots of eye rolls and exasperated sighs. But since changing my message and starting people looking at just small ways they can make a difference, looking at small facts, and little pieces of the puzzle at a time....I've actually had a few people in my friends and family circle who have not only seen the truth in the corporate clothing industry, or big agra or big pharma, wherever they started their out-of-the-box thinking....but have gone from tried and true, two party system loving, authority worshipers to people who have done extensive research both on the truth of what is going on in our world and also from a philosophical standpoint of what it means to be alive, free and in control of your destiny.

Anyway, thanks again for the linky, sorry for the rambly post, I could go on all day on the subject!

ALSO...OP, sorry for the thread-jacking and crazy tangents.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> I agree that capitalism is not going to save us...but I think it's worth mentioning that *the system we are living with is not actually capitalism*. Kind of like how Democrazy is not going to save us and is a horrid system...but isn't actually the system we're living under, either!


I am interested in this, can you expand?


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
> 
> ALSO...OP, sorry for the thread-jacking and crazy tangents.


Please don't apologize! I'm loving the conversations in this thread!


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Just curious as to where everyone buys their organic free trade computers... or are certain aspects of slavery justified if it is something we really, really need?


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> Just curious as to where everyone buys their organic free trade computers and screens...


I'd love to know too, but I don't think it's a reason we should just shrug and forget about the whole issue. If people care about an issue, then alternatives will be developed. People got tired of eating factory animals, and now small farmers are popping up everywhere selling meat from animals that had rolled in the grass and soaked in the sunshine.

So, are you really saying that since you can come up with one example of a product with no good alternatives currently that we should just feel fine about supporting slave practices for things we can't even argue we need?


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> Just curious as to where everyone buys their organic free trade computers and screens...


Is that a little snark? I'm pretty sure that no one on this thread has said that they are perfect. I really get the impression that we're all trying to find the balance between wants and needs and necessities and we really just want to do the least damage we can while still participating in the greater society.

If it wasn't a snarky question, then I don't know. We buy our computers/ iPod used or "refurbished" which isn't perfect, but allows us to be frugal and gives the items a longer life than if they just ended up in the landfill. Maybe others have sources for more humane technology. If so, please share!


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> I'd love to know too, but I don't think it's a reason we should just shrug and forget about the whole issue. If people care about an issue, then alternatives will be developed. People got tired of eating factory animals, and now small farmers are popping up everywhere selling meat from animals that had rolled in the grass and soaked in the sunshine.
> 
> So, are you really saying that since you can come up with one example of a product with no good alternatives currently that we should just feel fine about supporting slave practices for things we can't even argue we need?


No, we should all still feel really bad about it. But we must not feel all that bad if we still continue to use our computers to talk about how bad it is.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> No, we should all still feel really bad about it. But we must not feel all that bad if we still continue to use our computers to talk about how bad it is.


But I do feel bad about the computers. DH and I talk about this kind of thing all the time. My particular system is used, but of course it came from whatever manufacturing system it came from.

I guess I don't get the logic. We can't talk about wanting to better ourselves and society and choices until we live under a tree felled by lighting and eat only fruit that fell off the tree and gave themselves to us? It seems like there's always someone in the crowd who has to cry HYPOCRITE when people try to figure things out, but it seems like that's just an easy way to let yourself off the hook and not think about it for another minute.

I have a computer, I have a car, DD has a mountain of plastic toys, I am wearing leather shoes right now. I can still try to make the best choices I can. And frankly, I'm already making some good choices, as the computer is used, the plastic toys were not bought by us (grandmother, as I've said in this thread, I can't stop her), I own only five pieces of footwear and wear them on average of 12 years before replacing, and we drive the car so little that our insurance is at the low-mileage rate. No, none of that is a ticket to heaven, but it's also not an excuse to run out and buy whatever slave-built crap gives my daughter 15 seconds of interest before it breaks or we throw it away.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> I am interested in this, can you expand?


Capitilism is actually not even a "system"...it is more a lack of any system imposed by an organized governing body. It is the idea that any person has the right to contract with whomever and whatever they want and that you have a right to keep what it is you earn or whatever it is you were born into.

Things like:

-Excessive taxation

-Spreading wealth around (welfare, etc)

-Excessive regulation (or any at all, some would argue)

-Lobbyists for major industry writing legislation that our "elected officials" then pass, which stamp out the small business owner or entrepreneur

are some of MANY examples of why we are not in any way a functioning capitalist society. In fact, we've never really been on...the late 1800's was an extremely prosperous time for us in the US and I would say is the closest we ever got to true capitalism. People back then knew to be wary of banks and mega-corporations and were very "anti trust" in spirit. Through trickery, bribed politicians and much strong arming, the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in the wee hours of the morning on December 23rd, when no one was paying attention and hardly anyone was there.

A quote, from the diary of Woodrow Wilson...who was made president by the bankers because he promised to make an "easy way" for the Federal Reserve Act:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

-Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

After the Federal Reserve Act...what we had left was nothing short of feudalism...a system we continue to live under to this day.

Quick fun facts:

- Did you know that the Federal Reserve is not a federal/government entity of any kind? It is a massive central bank, which is a completely autonomous entity. It is not regulated by the US government, does not answer to anyone and is not audited.

- Did you know, that our money, printed (out of thin air) by the Federal Reserve is actually LOANED to us, the American people? Yes, every single dollar the Federal Reserve prints for us to put into our money supply has interest attached to it....the way it works, is Congress goes to the Federal Reserve every year and says "Um, this is the budget that has been passed and we need x-amount of dollars for it" - and the Fed Chairman says "okay"....and makes the money out of nothing and pumps it into the economy.

We do not live in a Democracy (not that a democracy is even a good system, you've been told it is...but it's not)...we live in a time and place where a very few wealthy men/corporations, own and control everything. Six (might now be five) corporations own every TV network, newpaper, magazine and radio station you have available to you. Many of the bills our elected leaders sign into law...are written by lobbyists for these same mega corporations...a lot of the time these days, our officials don't even read them. This is not a democratic or republican issue. The two party system is a distraction, tailor made to keep us divided and easily conquered.

Another great quote:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation, and then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their father's conquered ... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies ... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the Government, to whom it properly belongs."

- Thomas Jefferson

Look at us all...look at what Thomas Jefferson said would happen if we let the central banks in....and every word of it has come true.

You want to know exactly what our economy is? These people made a very very very good animation, EXTREMELY easy to watch, not depressing VERY simple cartoon. It'll take you 20 minutes and you'll understand EXACTLY how our money system works:






That's it. In a nutshell.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

AverysMomma, you have made a lot of important points in your posts. This is a complex issue with no easy answers. I would like to point out, however, a number of points of misinformation.

The Fed is, in fact, a government institution but operates with autonomy over monetary policy. It is audited by the GAO as well as external auditors. Yes, it is a central bank, responsible for both monetary policy and bank supervision. Obviously not doing a good job on the latter but they are not a private bank in any shape or form.

As for you earlier statement about World Bank Aid...yes, it is primarily through loans, as well as technical assistance. The loans are not, however, made at excessive rates, but quite the opposite. Loans are at half to one percentage point above LIBOR which is currently at about half a percent. And, yes, some of the money is for budget support but I have seen a great deal of infrastructure built around the globe with World Bank and other donor money, linking the rural poor with roads, providing clean sources of energy, providing clean water, providing schools and hospitals. It is not perfect - I have also seen a lot of money wasted - but it is a fallacy to imply that it is all bad.

The same goes for factories in China and other developing countries that produce for export to the US. Yes, there are those that pay poor wages and exploit their workers, but there are just as many that provide living wages, though low by US standards, and provide decent working conditions. It is not one big generic sweatshop out there.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am in the Aid business. I have seen pretty much the full spectrum of conditions in the countries in which I work. It is impossible to paint it with one big brush. Our projects, funded by the World Bank and USAID, have made a positive and measurable impact, promoting sustainable agriculture and food security in Africa, IT jobs in Asia, and even factories that pay decent wages for semi-skilled workers. I have seen the ugly side of it as well. No denying that and I genuinely appreciate and respect your passion to throw light on some very dark practices. But I don't think the answer is to throw out the baby with the bath water.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Magali*
> 
> Just curious as to where everyone buys their organic free trade computers... or are certain aspects of slavery justified if it is something we really, really need?


or our organic free trade celphones thats causing strife in the congo.

that's why bill gates didnt try to stop microsoft piracy in china. just get them addicted and then we have the market for future products.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amma_mama*
> 
> AverysMomma, you have made a lot of important points in your posts. This is a complex issue with no easy answers. I would like to point out, however, a number of points of misinformation.
> 
> ...


The bolded is, I'm sad to say, absolutely not true. The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 provided a "government run" central bank, of sorts...still very shady, but US Code Title 12 chpt 3 shows an intention that the Fed be a somewhat autonomous Federal institution. Where a lot of people are derailed, is in forgetting the Bank Act of 1935, which was meant to pull a completely out of control Federal Bank and it's wayward branches, back into line under the government, but actually ended up creating an incredibly powerful, completely autonomous Central Bank, which has been devaluing our money ever since and is. not. federal.

Some other thing people forget from third grade civics class:

- Our government has three freakin branches, people: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Federal Reserve does not fall under or answer to any of these branches...because the Federal Reserve is not a Federal institution of any kind. You can MAKE UP additional branches all you want...hell, I'd like to give the "Peace and Prosperity for Americans" branch a go'round...it's not gonna make it any more legit, especially if there is not even a pretend attempt at oversight.

- The Constitution is very clear on this issue, as the founding fathers wished to avoid this very predicament we find ourselves in today. Our founding document allows Congress the "authority to ***COIN*** money and regulate its value". It did not at any point give Congress the right to, on behalf of the people, create a Central Bank. It was unconstitutional and therefore illegal from it's inception, but when's the last time that stopped anything the bankers wanted to happen, from actually going down? The answer: Never. The reason I stress the word COIN so much, is because our founding fathers SPECIFICALLY told us to allow no currency which was paper currency, printed by a central bank. Up until Nixon took us off the gold standard, we were actually not completely failing at that, but after we left that in the dust, we can actually say our money isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Do you know who made the Federal Reserve? Like, who wrote the Federal Reserve Act and designed it? The top bankers and men of industry of the day.. seven very wealthy men: JP Morgan, William Rockefeller, Frank Vanderlip and more along their lines who, interesting sidenote, represented about 25% of the wealth in the entire world at that point in time. Anyway, they went to a place called Jekyll Island (owned by a small group of millionaires from New York and a few other "pricey neighborhoods" of the day)...and they created the Federal Reserve Act. That's where our nations money system came from. Stinking rich men, who wanted to stay stinking rich...and hey, what do you know..anyone here know the name Rockefeller? How about Chase Bank...anybody have a JP Morgan account? This stuff was bad news and completely illegal to begin with.

As far as the Fed being beholden to anyone in the government...people who are not paying attention to anything like to taut the fact that the chairman is appointed by the President. Like the President is an all powerful figure. A quote by a "Rockefeller type" *"Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes it's laws"* - Amschel Rothchild. The president is the top politician in this country...he is by no means, by any stretch of the imagination, the most powerful man in this country. The President doesn't say a damn thing to the Fed Chair. The Federal Reserve has the authority to make deals with leaders of other countries, enter the US into binding agreements abroad with not so much as a shrug or a wink from the President of the United States and really, whatever else he likes. Oh, and AUDITING!? Are you serious? The GAO last PEEKED at the Feds books for an "audit" *wink wink* in the 19SEVENTIES...and at that time, could not conduct a full audit, because the Fed refused to let them see anything about some of the largest line items on their balance sheets.

Fair point in my brush being too big...but it is not unfair and it is not untrue to say, that a lot of you "aid workers" would be without jobs, were it not for, well, "aid workers" and the nations which back them. Ron Paul said something I really liked at this years CPAC, "Foreign aid, is taking money from the poor people of a rich nation and giving it to the rich people of a poor nation." - and that is true. I'm going to try to find an interesting essay written like, almost ten years ago now...which talked about the fact that the way some of these loans are structured, the repayment, because of the interest attached when the loan obligation cannot be met, becomes a laughing matter more than a likely possibility. These loans are, in many cases, predatory. If you cannot see that, because of the work you do, I buy that. I'm cool with that. But it's a fact. The IMF/World Bank scene are cultural vultures, sucking the lifeblood out of peoples already ailing before the money truck comes, BECAUSE OF said vultures. The number of pig dictators and warlords who have lived large off the IMF dollar is disgusting and if I had my way, they'd be number two on the boot list after the Federal REserve.

The only other thing I would say about that, is that a lot of this "measurable impact" that you think is positive, is not so positive to me. When you say roads, schools and hospitals, that sounds really positive. What I don't like is when the roads lead to factories which pop up like magic...when the hospitals are used for what basically amount to testing facilities for vaccinations ("Oh, the people there LOVE us, we're giving them vaccinations to help prevent malaria" translation: "We test drugs on people in third world countries"....HOW many tens of thousands of women in south america who ended up sterile because of the "aid" that was sent in the form of yearly vaccinations for "women between 15-45" - oh yeah, I forgot, we're not supposed to count...it's aid, they should just shut up and be happy for it.) There are a lot of different ways to look at the headlines, I guess...but that bottom line remains. Why is it, that the one of the continents richest in natural resources needs so much "aid" from the West? Oh yeah, we've been raping them for centuries and continue to do so, to this very moment...guess that'll do it.

I appreciate, though, that people like you remain invested in your time, energy and spirit, in trying to help the less forunate of the world. Thank you for your work, I do not, by any means, think that you are purposefully engaged in any hurtful behavior at ALL...I value and respect people who make their lifes work out of trying to help people who don't often have a voice.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

right on avery'smom.

the one country that i have some knowledge of is jamaica. how the WB and IMF totally "screwed" them in the form of loans destroying their local agriculture and local dairy industry.

yes IMF did go in and create 'good work' like hospitals and other usual stuff. but its only after they created the need for such kind of institutions. and in many of those countries a hospital is an imposed thing that the people didnt want but the govt insisted. schools and education are to our standards - not to their standards. but then those educated from those schools get jobs at the foreign corporations. and so the locals leave their own education and want to follow the ;generously gifted' education system.

yes aid has created the destruction of culture.

just like farm subsidies here is getting our kids used to chemical tastes so that our children are choosing good looking terrible tasting food over not so hot looking tasty food.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

No, we should all still feel really bad about it. But we must not feel all that bad if we still continue to use our computers to talk about how bad it is.

Firstly, isn't that self-refuting? You're on a computer too, after all... if our arguments are invalid because we're using slave-produced technology to disseminate them, then so are yours.

Secondly, it is entirely possible to use a computer without buying one! I have never bought a new computer. Just like there will always be consumers who buy designer clothes and throw them away scarcely worn, there will always be geeks and corporations who relentlessly upgrade to new machines every year, leaving their older models for people to buy secondhand. Same with cellphones and other electronics. Now, in a perfect world it wouldn't be sustainable, and it would be better if companies did start making "organic, fair trade" computers; but until then, second-hand seems to me to be an ethical choice, just like second-hand clothes. The damage has already been done; by not paying the manufacturer you're not encouraging further sweatshop production; and you're saving something (albeit temporarily) from a landfill. What's the problem? (Side note: it helps if you know geeks. Most of my friends are in IT, so not only have I never had to buy a new computer, I've never had to pay for one at all - or set one up! Very handy.)

Thirdly, even if someone considers buying a new computer necessary in order to earn a living or whatever, it seems a strange leap to say that for consistency's sake she should not care about where she gets her clothes from. Sure none of us are perfect; we all have blind spots, gaps in our knowledge, luxuries we're not willing to give up, a Western view of necessity, yada yada. But if a mother roars up to a farmer's market wearing Walmart clothes, driving a gas-guzzler, with fifty different kinds of chemicals on her skin and hair, and decides to buy a locally-grown peach - well, good for her. It's something. Laughing at her tokenism or inconsistency won't help, and hey - that's still one less peach that has to fly 1500 miles. So if the only thing anyone on this thread refrains from buying is sweatshop clothes - well, it's still something.

Quote: What I'm asking is....what would they do for cash and food if these jobs weren't available? Can you answer that?

I was thinking about this, and ethically I think there are two issues at play here. Firstly, I think we have a strong obligation not to exploit or oppress our fellow man. Secondly, I think we have a lesser obligation to help our fellow man. I don't mean "lesser" as in inconsequential; but I think there is a moral distinction between shoving a person over in the street and not helping a fallen person up.

Obviously we should try to do both. Not buying from sweatshops only addresses the first part of the equation. By refusing to give the corporations an incentive to continue using sweatshops - the "But they make MONEY!" excuse - we are refraining from exploiting the workers. And that is a Good Thing.

Ideally, that should be combined with efforts that also help people - ie, give them alternative employment. Hence the importance of supporting companies that set up fair trade with local artisans, train women to do skilled factory work for a fair price, and so on.

But... some of us can't afford to support those companies. Let's face it, fair-trade-organic-shade-grown-artisan-produced-all-profits-go-towards-digging-wells clothes (and other goods) tend to be EXPENSIVE. So some of us can only afford to do the first part of the equation - buying our goods, instead, from second-hand shops, or swapping clothes with friends, or sewing them ourselves, or whatever. Does that mean we shouldn't do the first part, just because we can't do the second? I don't think so: refraining from exploiting our fellow-man is still a good thing. And there are other, oblique ways we can fight poverty. Buying clothes from the Salvation Army or Red Cross op shops mean you're essentially giving to charity. Donating to other charities might not help the specific people who work at the sweatshop you didn't buy your T-shirt from (as it were!), but it'll help someone.

The argument that buying sweatshop clothes "supports" sweatshop workers seems quite bizarre to me - if you want to support them, every time you buy a second-hand or Fair Trade T-shirt (or sew your own), donate 15 or 20 cents to an aid organisation. Even after the charity overheads, you'll be giving a person in poverty considerably more than he or she would have made sewing your garment, AND done it without giving a much much larger chunk of money to the corporation happy to use slave labour!


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

Sorry, the conspiracy theories about the Fed are just wrong. There are plenty of websites debunking all the "facts" presented here. I am having trouble pasting links on my non-fair trade iPhone but a quick Google search provides a reality check.

As for our respective views on Aid, I think we will have to respectfully disagree. There is bad stuff going on, no denying, but there is also a ton of good. I consider myself fairly jaded by the things that I have seen in my years of work - including waste, bad advice, and negative impacts - but it does not mean that there is not a lot of good things that have lifted many out of poverty and created the means to ensure that these efforts are sustainable. Yes, we can each see these things differently, so I will just leave it at that as we are both entrenched in our respective world views.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> right on avery'smom.
> 
> ...


Well and the destruction of agriculture is so heartbreaking...even moreso than some of the other ways in which third world people are robbed. In some places, people are fighting back...farmers in India are fighting tooth and nail to keep their right to save seeds and not be beholden to Monsanto (boooo hissss!) for genetically modified seeds every year. But the headline in the US reads more like: Farmers in India Getting a Hand From US Corporations or whatever. People don't understand how much blatant twisting of truth goes into the headlines they read and hear on the news every night.

I think in America we have this idea that we're the best, greatest thing to ever pop up on the face of the earth...and while I love America and I am a proud citizen of this country...I also know a lot of people who come from other places and I know that it's great -sometimes kind of better- in other places, too. We have problems, real problems. Our population seems to have this idea that if it comes from us, it's gotta be the best and the "natives" in other places must be jumping up and down to have it....that's simply not true in many cases. Many people, especially in Africa, are very suspicious of our medical aide programs...but when we go to give shots, we hand out food at the same time...watch the lines stack up. Anyone on this forum who has a problem with vaccination...should take a minute to look into the crap that we shoot into the arms of kids nobody cares about. It can be extremely hard to find information, but there are some people out there doing good work to look into these things.

When your country's leaders decide to do business with the WB/IMF...you are beholden to an organization of international bankers and outside forces. Yeah...they build you a school...and roads, whatever..an extremely small price for them to pay to gain access and control over your country's natural resources. Wanna be kind of frightened...go and look for a map of the world with all the countries doing business with the WB/IMF highlighted...yeah.

Money is nothing, money is not the root of all evil...it is our relationship with money which keeps the river of heartache and hunger flowing through the heart of this world. There is enough money in the pockets of the top two wealthiest people on the planet, to lift every single person in the world out of poverty. A moderate percentage of what we've spent on the war in Irq, could have put food in every belly, built REAL healing centers in every place one is needed, put clothes and shoes on EVERY kid who has none. We HAVE the resources to heal, to lift up and to nourish every person. But that is not the point of this game being played out.

Really and truly think about what my paragraph above means. We HAVE the money, we HAVE the man power, we HAVE the resources....but the intention is NOT to stop starving children from dying. Just like the intention of the research that goes into cancer, AIDS, Lyme Disease, etc is NOT to cure these illness which create chronically ill people who "need" medication. Why? Money, of course.

You really want to turn your whole brain upside down...here is a video which will throw most of what you think you know about "AIDS" out the window, fascinating stuff. This is just the trailer and it doesn't do the movie justice (The full movie is SO GOOD - you will NOT stop thinking about it)...but keep in mind while you're watching this short clip about it, that AIDS research and aid programs are a multi, multi, multi BILLION dollar industry:






It's an instant view on Amazon.com (and possibly Netflix? or Google Videos) It's called House of Numbers and I highly recommend it.

Anyway. To put the discussion back on track...it is all of these things; poor exploited people, lies told by oppressive governments, the incredible importance placed by our society on money...all of these things and more...are the reasons I wont put a Hello Kitty teeshirt on my kid. I don't know what I'll do when she's 8 if she wants to wear one. But to me, it's not about the character or the cuteness factor...it's about my kid wearing a symbol on her shirt, of everything that has gone wrong with the world. To me, it is a symbol of perhaps the darkest hour in human history. I look at HKs face and I see everything I wish I could erase about human existence today...all the things that are covering up what a brilliant, wonderful, intensely capable species we are.

Amma_Mama: Let's put aside the debatable facts about the Fed, that's fine. I'm sorry you view my thoughts as "Conspiracy Theory" - but I get that some people are more comfortable with the Government Sponsored "Official" version of things. There is one thing that no one here can debate:

The stated intention of the Federal Reserve is not being met...not even a small effort is being made. There is NO accountability, there is NO transparency and The Fed gets away with the murder of our currency with most every policy since the beginning of it's existence.

It is a non-debatable FACT that because of the Federal Reserve System, our currency has lost 98% of it's spending power in the hundred years since since the Central Bankers took over. People, do you understand what this means? Everyone thinks it's "normal" that things get more expensive with time...that's not NORMAL. THe fact that a home cost, in the 50's, what a nice car costs NOW...that's called INFLATION...it's not "just how things go".

You can believe what you want, I don't take it personally at all when people think I'm crazy...and yes, if you go to the Federal Reserve website or even just mainstream news sites, you will get an education about the Federal Reserve that will make a lot of sense to a more traditional thinker and will make just about everything I've said about the Federal Reserve seem very alarmist and lunatic-y. That's okay with me. Because I know that some people won't buy that, some people will say "I want to look closer" and will seek out information that is not in the textbooks....and they will come to have a better understanding of what it means to be alive in this time.

In any case...been fun, ladies. Thanks for the awesome conversation. <3


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Really? All of us? Even me? Because a couple of the posts I read seem to suggest that I spend my time at the mall sucking up merchandise and don't care about where it comes from.

I worked a 12 hour shift yesterday and missed the evolution of this thread. After reading the first couple of posts that seem tied to mine, I think I'll bow out now because I'm also working all weekend and don't have the energy to engage here. You know....I gotta rake in that dough so I can hit Macy's later.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> Is that a little snark? I'm pretty sure that no one on this thread has said that they are perfect. I really get the impression that we're all trying to find the balance between wants and needs and necessities and we really just want to do the least damage we can while still participating in the greater society.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

glitch


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

more glitch


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Putting aside the - very good arguments, I have genuinely enjoyed reading the whole of this thread and the wisdom all the people taking part have expressed, basically it comes down to this for me, I don't want my kids to be walking publicity for large corporate 'mark' brands, simple - I think they should pay us for letting the kdis wear this sort of thing, thankfully our dd doesn't want to have anything to do with branding - in fact at 8 years old she told her father and I one day when in the market that she if we ever bought her 'whatever' type of sweatshirt she would never wear it - in my heart I was jumping - we have never had to explain commercialism to her - she's just sort of got it, our ds however, is a different child and wants everything to do with Ben10, Spiderman etc, so it's a little more interesting, we use charity shops a whole lot and buy 'good' clothing, fairtrade is something that we invest in - and we see it as an investment for our and everyone's future, the same as we avoid Nestle and all the crap that goes along with that - it's amazing the amount of branched off companies and manufacturers that have Nestle hidden somewhere!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

the thing in this case (back on track) is it all comes down to the bottom lines.

what are we as parents doing rather than what we speak.

are we wearing branded logo'd clothes. are our sweatshirts shouting gap or whatever there is. even from thrift stores. if we do then how do we tell our children not to do so.

dd wore a lot of branded stuff that were passed down to her. even toys. i even got her some stuff because she wanted it.

that is just one part of our life. i volunteer a lot and tow the middle line. i am radical in places most people are not. i dont invite dd to walk the same path as me. but just by being around me dd gets to think and decide for herself.

all i can say is i look back and realise i spent a lot of wasted energy on worrying about things because i thought they mattered. that i was corrupting my child in some way. i had to figure out a middle line where due to my agenda i wasnt forcing myself on dd and allowed myself to do things for her while i cringed.


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## cloudswinger (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *woodchick*
> 
> I have to wonder if HK is geared towards adults now because they are cashing in on the love of HK that these adults had in the 80s when they were kids...


Well, the biggest market for HK in Japan is adult women. Personally, I think it's a weird part of their culture that makes adult women act more teenagerish, and adult men be attracted to the teenage age group. It's all about cutsie(kawaii), generally big eyes, small bodies. The products sold here are just a small percentage of what is sold, and probably someone decided that the US market wouldn't really support the more grown up products, so they gear their product sales to kids.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to say that while I do think Hello Kitty is cute and I do share the OPs dislike of characters marketed to kids, my DD has been given a lot of HK by family. Most of it I don't mind, but the DVD was AWFUL (very mean kittens!) and I don't personally like the clothes. It's like having a walking ad.

Tjej


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