# Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid!



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

OK, I just need to vent.

Ds and his best friend go to different schools. Due to a host of factors, they don't see each other that often, and the last 2 playdates have had to be canceled because we've been sick.

Sunday was ds' birthday party. He'd planned it for over a month. His best friend (plus 6 other kids) was invited. His friend's mom (who is a friend of ours too) was going to come early to help us set up (we were at a local rec center for a party/swimming). So, 15 minutes before the party, the mom shows up, without her son.

Turns out her son had "lost his privilege" of coming to ds' birthday party. Ds was in tears.









I get that they were really upset with their son (age 6) -- he had gone over to a neighbor's house without permission and didn't come back when asked to. Instead, he ran the other direction when the parents came to find him. It took them nearly an hour to find him/bring him home. He did this twice in one week. Once, Wed and then again on Friday.

I don't know if I'm more ticked about the ineffectual punishment, the fact that it really did put a cloud on ds' party OR that they didn't tell us AHEAD of time. They knew Friday evening that their son wasn't coming to our party. I could have at least prepared him for the fact that his best friend wasn't going to be there.

Ok, end of vent.

Now a question: What can these parents do to keep their 6 yo from taking off like this?

What can I give the parents to read to help them? They are well meaning, but not terribly effective at discipline. (Too harsh on some little things like snacks, and a bit oblivious to other things until they've become a BIG problem (ignoring chasing the cat until he's cornered her and she feels threatened). I know they've tried "Love & Logic" (they were our introduction to the program, which my dh declared "needs a lot more love and less logic"!) But as dh describes it, their basic instincts are just plain off much of the time. (Things escalate to a power struggle a lot.)


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

sounds like a pretty logical if not natural consequence to me. I wouldnt' take child out anywhere fun that had been running from me when it's time to go home. Not a headache I'm willing to deal with. My 8yo just did this to me a couple of weeks ago. When he was invited back for another playdate we had to decline because I dont' feel like chasing him all over god's green earth for 30min to come home while he laughs at me.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Actually I change my mind. I think it IS a VERY natural consequence....mom not feeling like taking a child out that is hard to catch to bring home.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

sounds like she did the right thing, IMO, though it would have been considerate to warn you as well.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Yeah, even if this one isn't totally natural, there are plenty of times when the natural consequence of an action is going to be that you have to miss something that another child is looking forward to.

Stinks, but there it is


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

She should have warned you. It was very rude for her not to consider that your child's feelings would be hurt and that you would need to really him for the sad fact that his friend would not be coming to his birthday party.

For me personally, I think it would have been more logical not to allow him back at the neighbor's house. What mom doesn't "feel" like doing should have no say in the choosing of a punishment.

I often don't 'feel' like explaining consequences throughly to my DS but I do, because it's what I should do.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

If he'd run away at another outing, I could kind of "get" the punishment. But, he ran away FROM HOME without telling them. To ME the logical consequence of that is that he is not allowed out of the house without mom and/or dad. You install locks/alarms on every door and he's not allowed out without mom and dad being 2 feet behind him.

I guess I just don't "get" grounding a kid period. I get time-outs. I get losing other privileges. But what does grounding teach?


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breeder* 

For me personally, I think it would have been more logical not to allow him back at the neighbor's house. What mom doesn't "feel" like doing should have no say in the choosing of a punishment.


I agree. I'm sorry your son was hurt by it


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## Delta (Oct 22, 2002)

I avoid consequences that end up hurting other kids or inconveniencing other parents for this exact reason. I really hate it when I'm canceled on for playdates and the like because the other kid is in trouble. After all, I've usually arranged my schedule to accomodate, told my child and he's looking forward to it, etc. I understand if the other kid is sick or what have you, of course those things can't be helped. But I know I'd feel pretty inconsiderate if I canceled plans or commitments because my child misbehaved.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Thoughtless, thoughtless people!
That was disrespectful to you and especially to your DS. People get wacky ideas sometimes. I remember my cousin getting into trouble and then the punishment would be that he couldn't go to the basketball game with his dad (yeah, take away the one-on-one dad time!!) or he couldn't go to his Cub Scouts meeting or karate class!

You do not say that your child is coming to a party and then not bring him unless there has been some kind of emergency. You find some other punishment if you really believe your child needs one.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
sounds like a pretty logical if not natural consequence to me. I wouldnt' take child out anywhere fun that had been running from me when it's time to go home. Not a headache I'm willing to deal with. My 8yo just did this to me a couple of weeks ago. When he was invited back for another playdate we had to decline because I dont' feel like chasing him all over god's green earth for 30min to come home while he laughs at me.

You seriously chased him for 30 minutes?


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

I think she was pretty thoughtful to show up and help you even though she wasn't bringing her son. I'm sorry that your son was upset, but that is also a consequence of her son's actions. I agree that she should have left him at home. I'm not a big fan of punishments, but I don't allow the effect on other people to determine how I deal with my kids. Of course, if my DC are still running away from me at 6 yo, I'm going to have to do some deep introspection.

If I were his mom, I'd go back to him and say, "Your friend was really sad not to see you at the party. I think at 6 YO, you are responsible enough to respect our rules about leaving the house and coming back home. When you disregard those rules, I get angry and afraid. I will not take you out if you won't stay where you are supposed to. Since your friends want to see you so much, we need to work on a way for you to ask my permission to leave and to come back when I call you. I was very upset with you the last two nights that you ran out of the house to visit our neighbor, but I want you to spend time with your friends. Will you show me how responsible you can be so that I can feel comfortable letting you go out to play?"


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## Tinker (Mar 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu* 
sounds like she did the right thing, IMO, though it would have been considerate to warn you as well.

I'd have to agree. It's what I probably would have done as well.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

i am absolutely fascinated by the initial replies on this thread and the (almost) consensus that the *punishment* described makes any sense at all. i had to double check to make sure i hadn't accidently logged onto a mainstream parenting board!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't like that punishment either. Well, I don't like any punishment, but particularly birthday parties. They are a really big deal for kids. For an adult, it would be like missing a huge event you'd been looking forward to. We have to look at things through kids' eyes. If you were having trouble and your husband said, well then we won't go on that cruise you've been wanting to go on, you'd be upset. I really think we should look past the behavior to the reason for the behavior and address that rather than simply punish the behavior. It sounds to me like he went to a friend's house without permission, and the response to that made him afraid to go to his parents later. There's got to be a way to teach your child to let you know where he/she is without making him run away from you later. There's some problem of connection or something between the parents and the kid. If they were at MDC I'd recommend Hold On To Your Kids and Unconditional Parenting. When there's a problem in the connection between parents and a kid, punishment will just make it worse.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
i am absolutely fascinated by the initial replies on this thread and the (almost) consensus that the *punishment* described makes any sense at all. i had to double check to make sure i hadn't accidently logged onto a mainstream parenting board!









I don't know that it "makes sense" exactly, but it is definitely a consequence the mom is free to throw out. If my kids were acting up in a way that was dangerous to them, involving LEAVING THE SAFETY OF THE HOUSE WITHOUT ME, I would naturally want to give them a consequence that involved not leaving the house, so that I could keep tabs on them easily. Outings are completely stressful with a child who trys to run away all the time.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

I'm sorry you're son was upset, but I have and probably will use the same punishment again. If DS or DD left the house w/o permission and refused to come back than damn skippy the punishment would be that they couldn't leave the house.

I have found grounding and not going to friend's homes/parties to be a very, very effective punishment for my 10 yo.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mowilli3* 
I think she was pretty thoughtful to show up and help you even though she wasn't bringing her son.

So, it was thoughtful of the mom to not disappoint the OP, but it's okay that she disappointed the OP's son? I'm really surprised at how unimportant the OP's ds is seen in this scenario. For a child, this is equivalent to his best man not showing up at his wedding.

I'm also going to guess that if the party in question had been for the other child's grandmother, he would have gotten to go, even if he would have enjoyed spending time with his cousins or whatever, because the disappointment of his grandmother (an adult) would have been seen as outweighing the "need" for this particular punishment.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama* 
So, it was thoughtful of the mom to not disappoint the OP, but it's okay that she disappointed the OP's son? I'm *really surprised at how unimportant the OP's ds is seen in this scenario*. For a child, this is equivalent to his best man not showing up at his wedding.

I'm also going to guess that if the party in question had been for the other child's grandmother, he would have gotten to go, even if he would have enjoyed spending time with his cousins or whatever, because the disappointment of his grandmother (an adult) would have been seen as outweighing the "need" for this particular punishment.

Look, when my son breaks the rules, I do not consider other people in relation to his punishment. I don't say, "Gee, I would ground you for that dangerous and incorrect behavior, but I would hate to make your friend sad...so go on! Have a great time at the party." So, I am sorry the OPs son was disappointed, but he _was_ unimportant as far as the other mom choosing how to discipline her own child.

I think the mother should have given the OP notice for sure. That was thoughtless. It was not thoughtless to punish her DS the way she saw fit just to keep someone else kid happy.

And I don't know the mom in question, but I have *absolutly* missed fun family events b/c DS was grounded and I needed to stay home with him.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
i am absolutely fascinated by the initial replies on this thread and the (almost) consensus that the *punishment* described makes any sense at all. i had to double check to make sure i hadn't accidently logged onto a mainstream parenting board!









Do not confuse gentle discipline with never having a punishment.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

In response to the question "how can they stop the running away in situations like this" I would look at how they're reacting when they do finally catch him; or how they're reacting in situations where he's done something wrong and he doesn't try to run away, when they find out. If he knows that the parents are going to react in some horrible way (even a big screaming/chewing out fest) then I think that would be a big clue why he runs away when he knows he's done something wrong.

Maybe part of the issue is that he needs a bit more freedom? I do not think he should be able to leave the house without telling anyone, but if the neighbors aren't sketchy and he's an otherwise bright and sensible kid, maybe things should be loosened up so he can go over there by himself. My mom didn't tail me around the neighborhood when I was 6. Come to think of it, I would go out to play in the yard and sometimes go to a neighbor's house without letting her know. If she wanted me she went outside and hollered, and if I didn't answer she'd call their houses. I knew to be home by dinner or dark, not to go beyond a certain point, and not to mess around in people's yards unless there were kids there and they invited me.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

We don't decide on consequences in our house based on what will be convenient or agreeable to other people. We don't generally do "punishment" here, because I agree, it severs a connection sometimes between us and our kids. However, leaving the house and running away is very serious, and the consequence seems appropriate, and I'll bet, made an impression. A pp suggested locks, or some other thing to keep the child in the house, but honestly, my first step would not be that. It seems quite extreme. I think the mom was correct in keeping her child home.


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## onlyAngil (Jan 17, 2008)

I only have a two year old...

But I love your idea of what when a child runs away.

Any ideas about my two year old and going out? I am at the point were I feel I cant take him out, becuse he runs off when its time to go, or at lest tosses the bigges fit I have ever seen.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

My child wouldn't be going anywhere if he had been running away from me at home.

But, Mom should have called you on Friday night to warn you ahead of time. Perhaps they weren't sure they were going to actually follow through with it, but maybe the boy was still being impossible.

I agree with what they did, but not with not telling you in advance.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
You seriously chased him for 30 minutes?

yes, while he laughed at me, dodged inbetween other people's houses and behind them...all along a boat canal. I think my feelings after being disrespected like that ARE very natural...AND my natural feelings are valid. When he asked to go to that friends house next time, I didn't feel like dealing with that crap again, so I said "no"....I don't want to chase you. We'll try again another time.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
yes, while he laughed at me, dodged inbetween other people's houses and behind them...all along a boat canal. I think my feelings after being disrespected like that ARE very natural...AND my natural feelings are valid. When he asked to go to that friends house next time, I didn't feel like dealing with that crap again, so I said "no"....I don't want to chase you. We'll try again another time.

LMAO! I wish I was that nice. I think I would have hissed something very mean and innapropriate. I'm fairly sure my head would have been spinning too.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Yes, she did the right thing. Sorry your son got the fallout.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama* 
So, it was thoughtful of the mom to not disappoint the OP, but it's okay that she disappointed the OP's son? I'm really surprised at how unimportant the OP's ds is seen in this scenario. For a child, this is equivalent to his best man not showing up at his wedding.

I'm also going to guess that if the party in question had been for the other child's grandmother, he would have gotten to go, even if he would have enjoyed spending time with his cousins or whatever, because the disappointment of his grandmother (an adult) would have been seen as outweighing the "need" for this particular punishment.

Well if your bestman runs from the police ..... he will likely miss your wedding as well.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama* 
So, it was thoughtful of the mom to not disappoint the OP, but it's okay that she disappointed the OP's son? I'm really surprised at how unimportant the OP's ds is seen in this scenario. For a child, this is equivalent to his best man not showing up at his wedding.
.

I don't feel that the mom disapointed the OP's son. Her son proved untrustworthy out of the house....so he disapointed his friend all on his own.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

It sounds like they reacted just fine. A six year old running in the other direction and disappearing twice for over an hour is a big deal to most families even if they do practice gentle discipline, it is called gentle discipline not no discipline and there are a lot of terrible things that can happen to kids on their own especially at this age. It sucks that they didn't tell you about it ahead of time but since he has shown that he is not trustworthy out of the house he should not be allowed out of the house. There is no way I would leave the house with my dd at five if she had a habit of running off and disappearing and I can't imagine changing my opinion about that once she is six.


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## bluebirdmama (Sep 14, 2005)

If the punishment was going to be missing the party then he should have been the one to call on Friday and explain to his friend why he wouldn't be at the party the next day. He should have had first hand experience of his friend's disappointment rather than getting the message from mom later.

The underlying message in this scenario is that your actions effect other people: parents worry about you when you run away, your friends are disappointed when you end up missing their parties because you aren't following basic safety rules. This boy needs to really see the consequence of his running away, not just the punishment. This is about safety and respect and about being a considerate person. Ds needs to see how his behavior is inconsiderate to people who care about him.

The only problem is that the punishment for his inconsiderate behavior (running from mom) is more inconsiderate behavior (hurting his friend) which doesn't make a lot of sense. I agree that having restrictions placed on privileges following a display of irresponsibility makes sense, but really, one should try to find a way to do that without punishing/hurting other uninvolved kids.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

We don't do punishments...and fortunately haven't run into this sort of thing in our friends either. I'm really sorry it screwed up your son's party. I'd have been hurt at not being able to get my kid ready for it as well.

Of course, my suggestion at the went to the other house and ran away would be to sit down with my kid, explain how upsetting this was and find out what was going on with her when it happened.

But then, I believe a kid that is behaving in difficult ways is trying to explain something to difficult for them to put into words.

Also, I don't think of celebrating with friends as a privilege. I think of it as one of life's great joys. I always find that construction the privilege of "....." a little odd.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Delta* 
I avoid consequences that end up hurting other kids or inconveniencing other parents for this exact reason. I really hate it when I'm canceled on for playdates and the like because the other kid is in trouble. After all, I've usually arranged my schedule to accomodate, told my child and he's looking forward to it, etc. I understand if the other kid is sick or what have you, of course those things can't be helped. But I know I'd feel pretty inconsiderate if I canceled plans or commitments because my child misbehaved.


Natural consequences sometimes affect others - and that is the natural consequence!!!

If my son invites a friend over to play with a new toy, and then breaks that toy before the friend gets to see it -- that will deeply disappoint the friend!

Should I go out and buy a new one because the friend will be sad? My DS has tried to take that tactic -- "I promised Bobby I would bring my new car! I can't go without the car! We have to get a new one!" Nope. Bobby will suffer the disappointment, and you'll remember not to drive any future cars off the top of your bunk bed.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

What can I give the parents to read to help them? They are well meaning, but not terribly effective at discipline. (Too harsh on some little things like snacks, and a bit oblivious to other things until they've become a BIG problem (ignoring chasing the cat until he's cornered her and she feels threatened). I know they've tried "Love & Logic" (they were our introduction to the program, which my dh declared "needs a lot more love and less logic"!) But as dh describes it, their basic instincts are just plain off much of the time. (Things escalate to a power struggle a lot.)

This is really not appropriate. It is not your job to help them be better parents. If she asks for help/advice that is one thing, but to just volunteer it is off base.

It was rude that she didn't let you know the change in plans in a timely fashion but it does sound like she had a lot on her mind.


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

OP yes it really bugs me too when people stop their child going to something as a punishment. In my case I ran a children's group (think scout type set up with weekly meetings). When we were doing group work or projects over a couple of weeks it made a lot more work for me.

I'm surprised to hear so many people feel that keeping a child form an already made commitment is the right thing to do.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
We don't do punishments...and fortunately haven't run into this sort of thing in our friends either. I'm really sorry it screwed up your son's party. I'd have been hurt at not being able to get my kid ready for it as well.

Of course, my suggestion at the went to the other house and ran away would be to sit down with my kid, explain how upsetting this was and find out what was going on with her when it happened.

But then, I believe a kid that is behaving in difficult ways is trying to explain something to difficult for them to put into words.

Also, I don't think of celebrating with friends as a privilege. I think of it as one of life's great joys. I always find that construction the privilege of "....." a little odd.

yet, after a child runs away, it is not always a good 'teaching moment" The parent may have to calm down, the kid will, and everybody will most likely be upset. The kid won't like being caught, and you most likely won't like having to run after them.

I believe that kids act defiantly for lots of reasons. Not nessecarily to try to explain deep feelings. It might just be fun. It's fun to disobey sometimes. To test limits. To see if your parents will notice enough to come get you maybe?


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
i am absolutely fascinated by the initial replies on this thread and the (almost) consensus that the *punishment* described makes any sense at all. i had to double check to make sure i hadn't accidently logged onto a mainstream parenting board!

















: I'm not into punishments like this either.


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## faerierose (Jul 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
We don't do punishments...and fortunately haven't run into this sort of thing in our friends either. I'm really sorry it screwed up your son's party. I'd have been hurt at not being able to get my kid ready for it as well.

Of course, my suggestion at the went to the other house and ran away would be to sit down with my kid, explain how upsetting this was and find out what was going on with her when it happened.

But then, I believe a kid that is behaving in difficult ways is trying to explain something to difficult for them to put into words.

Also, I don't think of celebrating with friends as a privilege. I think of it as one of life's great joys. I always find that construction the privilege of "....." a little odd.

ITA To me a natural consequence happens naturally. If ds1 leaves his toys out and ds3 brakes them that's a natural consequence, if ds1 leaves his toys out and I take them away because I told him not to that is a parent imposed consequence.
Regardless of what we think of the punishment, it would have been nice for the op to get some warning in order to prepare her ds.


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## OneBlessedMommy (Mar 10, 2008)

IMO I think the child should have been able to go, to me birthdays are a celebration of life, and if it is his best friends life then he should have gone. A child behaves a certain way for a reason, and I think our jobs as parents are to find out why they are behaving that way. If a kid is running away from their home which is sposed to be a place of love and comfort, not a place the child wants to run from then somthing needs to be changed.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm so confused!

To me (newbie):
*punishment* would have been something like no phone for a week or no tv for a week or no new toys for x amount of time (loss of privilege unrelated to the "crime")
*natural consequences* would be no going out of the house if he is not trustworthy to stay with mom and dad (which unfortunately, means no attending friends' birthday parties)
*gentle discipline* would be explaining how the behavior affects you, trying to problem solve together a system that works for both the child and parent (cooperation), give a choice, etc.

Why is this punishment?


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## littlelessons (Apr 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama* 
So, it was thoughtful of the mom to not disappoint the OP, but it's okay that she disappointed the OP's son? I'm really surprised at how unimportant the OP's ds is seen in this scenario. For a child, this is equivalent to his best man not showing up at his wedding.

I'm going to give the mother the benefit of the doubt and say although she should have called the night before maybe in her household things were pretty stressful and she was just doing the best she could.

I'm sure she wasn't intending to disappoint the OP's son. Why is everyone making it out to be so malicious? Geez, I think she had her hands full. She did show up to help still, as promised.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I think this istotally reasonable and would have given the same consequence to my kids. I agree with the PP who said the child should have had to call your child Friday night and expain why he wouldn't be there.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *warriorprincess* 
I think this istotally reasonable and would have given the same consequence to my kids. I agree with the PP who said the child should have had to call your child Friday night and expain why he wouldn't be there.









:


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Natural consequences sometimes affect others - and that is the natural consequence!!!

Yes, natural consequences do sometimes affect others. However, I think it helps to clarify what we mean by "a natural consequence"... in this case it would be that he fell down running and got hurt, or hid and missed dinner...something that happens if no one interferes. Anything the parent has to come up with is not a natural consequence. It may make sense in the context of what happened, but an imposed consequence is not a natural consequence.

I can understand not wanting to take a runner to a birthday party, I do! I avoided playgrounds as much as possible all last summer because I just didn't want to spend all day chasing my son. BUT to frame it in the context of "you lose your privileges!" takes it out of that arena and throws it in the punishment

Lost my train of thought, kitchen situation...








Ugh. For instance. My son was just in the sugar. And the rice. The natural consequence is that he is covered in sugar. The logical consequence would be that I have him help me clean it up. Punishment would be a spanking or a time out, or not being allowed to go to a birthday party.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

OK, I've calmed down a bit and am no longer threatening to nominate them for worst parents of the year. They did royally screw up by not informing us ahead of time. And I like the idea of him calling my ds to tell him why.

I also don't feel out of line soliciting suggestions for them because they are friends of ours and the mom said to me "what else can we do?" They're open to suggestions. I don't think their son needs more freedom - he could go over to his friends' house if he let them know, and they'll even let him walk around the block by himself, IF they know where he is. The problem was that he took off without them knowing, and then wouldn't come back when they did find him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
I'm so confused!

To me (newbie):
*punishment* would have been something like no phone for a week or no tv for a week or no new toys for x amount of time (loss of privilege unrelated to the "crime")
*natural consequences* would be no going out of the house if he is not trustworthy to stay with mom and dad (which unfortunately, means no attending friends' birthday parties)

No, see, that's a LOGICAL consequence. The 'natural consequence' of running off is that you might get lost and that your parents get really worried. Natural consequences are different from logical consequences. So, if my dd goes out without shoes on (happens a lot), her tights get wet if it's rainy. She HATES wet tights. But I didn't intervene to do this.

I see what ds' friend's parents did as *punishment* because it was loss of a privilege *unrelated* to his crime. Not going to a birthday party has zilch to do with running away from mom and dad.

Quote:

*gentle discipline* would be explaining how the behavior affects you, trying to problem solve together a system that works for both the child and parent (cooperation), give a choice, etc.
Well, in my book it can also involve natural/logical consequences. I got tired of telling dd to put her shoes on, so I quit. Her tights got wet. She got frustrated. She started wearing shoes!

I also do logical consequences - my kids are fighting over a box. Problem solving is getting no where. (Refuse to take turns, refuse to try another game with the same box, have no ideas of their own other than to stand there and scream at brother/sister to get out of "their" box.) Box goes in garage until everyone has calmed down and mom can stand it again. My removing the box isn't necessarily punishment, but it's only tangentially related to the real problem.

But I still don't get what good grounding does. Really. I don't.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
I'm so confused!

To me (newbie):
*punishment* would have been something like no phone for a week or no tv for a week or no new toys for x amount of time (loss of privilege unrelated to the "crime")
*natural consequences* would be no going out of the house if he is not trustworthy to stay with mom and dad (which unfortunately, means no attending friends' birthday parties)
*gentle discipline* would be explaining how the behavior affects you, trying to problem solve together a system that works for both the child and parent (cooperation), give a choice, etc.

Why is this punishment?

Hiya!
_Natural consequences_ is something that happens *naturally* as a result of the actions. If a child throws his toy, it breaks, and that is the natural consequence. It is what happens IF YOU DO NOT INTERVENE.
_Logical consequences_ are something that the parent comes up with that is related to the "wrongdoing" in a way that makes sense. (For breaking a favorite vase, losing television privileges would not be a logical consequence.) Logical consequences can be a punishment to make the child "regret that he did it", or it can be a way of helping a truly remorseful child make amends.
_Gentle discipline_ is first and foremost parenting without smacking, spanking, or hitting. And it is what you mentioned as well - explaining, talking, cooperation, problem solving.
_Punishment_ is any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or offense. The goal of punishment is generally to get the child to feel bad, and the "worse" the offense, the more the child is supposed to suffer.

What the mother imposed was a punishment, and possibly a logical consequence, and it seems like it was gentle discipline. Does this make sense?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

A natural consequence is something that happens naturally - the parent doesn't have to do anything. It just happens.

If the parent creates a consequence, such as not allowing a child to go somewhere because he/she feels the child isn't trustworthy, that is a punishment. A consequence the parent makes happen in an effort to punish a child is a punishment. So "logical consequences" are a kind of punishment. People use that word often for more gentle punishments that are logically related to whatever the child is being punished for. Child makes mess and parent makes child clean up mess before doing anything else = logical consequence. Child makes mess and parent takes away new toy = non-logical consequence.

Gentle discipline is defined by different people in different ways, but for me it means discipline that is not physical and does not involve shame or humiliation. I don't personally punish but IMO there are many kinds of punishments that are gentle discipline techniques.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Okay,
So no one has mentioned (maybe they did and I missed it) that "Natural Consequences" in this situation could involve getting kidnapped or hit by a car.

Why is it So awful to have parent imposed consequences in situations like this?

A PP mentioned letting a child learn the natural consequences of not wearing shoes by letting dd go shoeless and learn that her tights will get wet. That is teaching through natural consequences.

I don't really see how, in the OP's situation, you teach through natural consequences. You can't just say "Okay, take off on your own. You will learn once you get hit by a car"...yk?

I think that there are times for parent imposed consequences.
And this was one of those times. Maybe she could have chosen a better consequence, but I really don't understand how this child can safely learn through completely "natural consequences" in this situation.

Should there have just not been a consequence?

And how would putting locks on the doors be a "natural consequence" (by definition) but keeping him home from a party is not?








Both of those things seem parent imposed to me. Neither of those things just happens on their own.

I am getting really confused on this thread and I am VERY into GD.

I really feel like some of the responses here are coming from the more wishy washy side of GD...I am sorry but I don't have a nicer way to put that. I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings.









This thread just has me a little







:


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
We don't do punishments...

Also, I don't think of celebrating with friends as a privilege. I think of it as one of life's great joys. I always find that construction the privilege of "....." a little odd.

Me too! As if children have no rights, only "privileges".







:

I think stopping him from going to his friend's birthday party was an extremely harsh punishment. To call it a "consequence" doesn't change anything. The parents understood that this birthday party was a thing that they could really hurt him by taking from him. The fact that his mother went without him makes it even worse, I think.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Should there have just not been a consequence?

And how would putting locks on the doors be a "natural consequence" (by definition) but keeping him home from a party is not?









I don't think a punishment is called for in this situation at all. The consequence of what happened was that the parents got upset, and they should of course tell him that.

The difference between putting locks on the doors and keeping him home from the party is that putting locks on the doors will actually prevent him from running out on his own again, while keeping him home from the party is done only to hurt him and thereby scare him from disobeying again: "This is what happens when you don't do as we say."

Although I don't think putting locks on the doors is a "natural" consequence, rather a "logical" one. While keeping him home from the party is just punishment.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
I don't think a punishment is called for in this situation at all. The consequence of what happened was that the parents got upset, and they should of course tell him that.

The difference between putting locks on the doors and keeping him home from the party is that putting locks on the doors will actually prevent him from running out on his own again, while keeping him home from the party is done only to hurt him and thereby scare him from disobeying again: "This is what happens when you don't do as we say."

It will also prevent him from escaping a fire, or getting out in an emergency. In many states this is illegal.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 

The difference between putting locks on the doors and keeping him home from the party is that putting locks on the doors will actually prevent him from running out on his own again, while keeping him home from the party is done only to hurt him and thereby scare him from disobeying again: "This is what happens when you don't do as we say."

But I am really still failing to see the difference. I think putting locks on the doors is worse...

The way that you describe it keeping him home from the party will help/make him decide not to run away again.
Putting locks on the door just takes away his opportunity to make a better choice in the future. This does not sound like GD to me.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I guess it's really a matter of feelings...

*if* the same thing happened to us, as the OP's friend it would be as follows..

Child runs and hides from mom....disappears and runs away for a long period of time...
*natural consequence*: Mom doesn't feel safe letting child out of arm's reach thus, doesn't take child into situations where she doesn't feel she can keep him in arms reach constantly.

or our situation

Child runs and hides from mom, laughing while doing so...
*natural consequence*: Mom doesn't feel up to taking child back to the same place because she lacks the energy and desire to chase child again....resulting in an *imposed consequence* of declining the next invitation.

I think a lot of times the difference between a natural and logical consequence is the motive behind it. It's my job as a mom to not take my child into dangerous situations. If my child is a child that chooses to run and hide from me, it's unsafe to take him somewhere that I can't constantly be close enough to grab him. This would be a *natural consequence* of running from mom. However, if I was just ticked off about it and used this reason to not take him to the party...then it would be an *imposed consequence.*


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

*I* feel that was harsh for a 6 year old. Appropriate for a 10 year old, though. The kid wasn't shamed or beaten, so I wouldn't be overly upset, even though I think it was harsh. You should have been given a heads up so your child could have been warned and not as disappointed.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I am getting really confused on this thread and I am VERY into GD.

I really feel like some of the responses here are coming from the more wishy washy side of GD...I am sorry but I don't have a nicer way to put that. I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings.









This thread just has me a little







:

FWIW I wasn't advocating for natural consequences in this situation. I simply said they're what happens if no one intervenes - and yes, sometimes the consequences are too great and the parent intervenes to protect the child from harm. There was some confusion as to what natural consequences are.
(Locks on the doors aren't a natural consequence. They may not even be a punishment; depends on how it's handled. For instance, I put my vitamins up high, not as a punishment but for safety. I personally like having a bell on the door handle that lets me know if my kids are leaving.)

But on a personal note, not just definitions, I don't think it was an appropriate punishment. I don't make my children suffer when they make mistakes or behave in ways that I don't want. If that's wishy washy then... oh well.









I don't do consequences. My kids don't lose privileges, don't get time outs or grounded. I don't let them step off bridges to learn a lesson. And they certainly aren't forced to let down other people to learn a lesson about something unrelated. Now, if we went to a birthday party and my child threw the cake at the other children, well, then I'd think twice about the next birthday party, and you better bet we'd be having a lot of discussions.

I'm not saying I don't get mad or frustrated. I do. But I am saying that making my kid suffer isn't my first answer to the problem. I've never ever had a situation where it was the only or best solution. Most of the time, it's not even PART of the solution.

Maybe the problem is that I'm not fully into "GD" anymore







to me that sounds like finding nice ways to coerce your kid. Better than hitting them, sure. But not where I'm at now... I'm a gentle parent, but not "Here's the right way to do a time out so your kid learns not to question your authority"...
which I guess looks wishy washy. My 5yo daughter did go farther than I wanted, to someplace I asked her not to go. I was scared to DEATH. It never occurred to me to tell her she couldn't go to a party, or that she had to clean the toilets or peel potatoes, or that she should be whacked. I let her know I was scared, talked to her, reiterated the boundaries and the reasons for them, more talks about safety, I made sure she got to go to the playground that is less than a block from our apt, and in general kept a better eye on her, since now I know her "territory" is increasing. No one needed to be punished for the situation to resolve, kwim?


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I see what ds' friend's parents did as *punishment* because it was loss of a privilege *unrelated* to his crime. *Not going to a birthday party has zilch to do with running away from mom and dad*.

ITA.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Well, in my book it can also involve natural/logical consequences. I got tired of telling dd to put her shoes on, so I quit. Her tights got wet. She got frustrated. She started wearing shoes!











Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
But I still don't get what good grounding does. Really. I don't.

Nope, it doesn't. I think we need to keep in mind that even if a consequence is perfectly logical to us *as adults*, it may make *no* sense to a child. If it doesn't make sense, to him/her, it is in actuality a punishment in the guise of a consequence, and therefore, pretty useless. At 6, the brain does not process abstract concepts the same way an adult's brain does.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
But I am really still failing to see the difference. I think putting locks on the doors is worse...

Well, I didn't mean that putting locks on the doors was to be used as some sort of punishment, like if the parents said "Since you are such a bad boy we will put LOCKS ON THE DOORS to keep you locked up!" It might just be a thing one could choose to do for safety (or not, if it's illegal in some states as was mentioned above). Excactly the same way that I sometimes lock the door with the extra security lock to prevent my two-year-old from running out into the road. Nothing to do with discipline at all.

I don't even know whether putting locks on the doors would be necessary or the right thing for the family in question, I just meant that by definition locking the doors has a logical connection with children going out without leave, whereas stopping them from going to a party is completely unconnected.

I think they should just explain to him why he shouldn't run off like that.







:


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

I think that, birthday party or not, "no going out of the house right now" was a good solution for the OP, because it keeps her child temporarily safe.

For me, gentle discipline includes parenting that says " I see that you really don't see what bad thing could come out of this right now, so for the time being I will make the decision that we won't do it" Because, see, I hold safety issues in a whole 'nother category. If it involves someone potentially getting hurt, I get involved.

Knowing your child means being a step ahead of them sometimes. And it means protecting them from some things they aren't yet able to understand, because YOU DO know better.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
I don't do consequences. My kids don't lose privileges, don't get time outs or grounded. I don't let them step off bridges to learn a lesson. And they certainly aren't forced to let down other people to learn a lesson about something unrelated. Now, if we went to a birthday party and my child threw the cake at the other children, well, then I'd think twice about the next birthday party, and you better bet we'd be having a lot of discussions.

I'm not saying I don't get mad or frustrated. I do. But I am saying that making my kid suffer isn't my first answer to the problem. I've never ever had a situation where it was the only or best solution. Most of the time, it's not even PART of the solution.

My 5yo daughter did go farther than I wanted, to someplace I asked her not to go. I was scared to DEATH. It never occurred to me to tell her she couldn't go to a party, or that she had to clean the toilets or peel potatoes, or that she should be whacked. I let her know I was scared, talked to her, reiterated the boundaries and the reasons for them, more talks about safety, I made sure she got to go to the playground that is less than a block from our apt, and in general kept a better eye on her, since now I know her "territory" is increasing. No one needed to be punished for the situation to resolve, kwim?









:

I think there are other solutions/ways of handling this kind of thing besides letting a child experience potentially very dangerous natural consequences, punishing, or doing nothing. There's a lot to be said for communication (about feelings, about danger, about what can happen, about how others might feel), problem solving (together), and supervision. It is possible to not be wishy-washy and still not punish. I don't think punishment is an effective teaching tool.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

I think mom should have called and told you that her child would not be allowed to come to the party. I also think the "punishment" should have been more related to the situation (not being able to go out without a parent nearby at all times, staying within arms or viewing length, coming when called, etc. . . then if child did not follow these rules with explanations, then the number of days of watching would be increased). Sometimes as parents we really get stressed out about our children's behaviour so we tend to crack down a little harder than we should (I know I do this sometimes). . .mom was probably really stressed when she couldn't find her kid and because she was so worried she gave him a punishment that would really affect him.

On another note, parents whose children run away from them. Well, DH and I call to our children before they get too far away that "we are going this way and we hope they come with us" (we've explained to our children that we will never ever leave them, but sometimes we need to go a different way and it would be really sucky if they went another way); most of the time this works. I almost never run after my children (unless they are in danger); I definately would not have chased my child for 30 minutes (I probably would have said, "Well, I'm going home now and going to bed. . .I'll probably lock the door so I hope you come too so you don't have to sleep outside).

Also, I think alarms and putting locks on the doors is way harsh! However, we do have a chain on our front door (for posters concerned about fire safety, we do have 4 other doors in the house that slide open, but DS usually doesn't go that way when he wants out) that DS can't open without dragging furniture around. . .so it does slow him down somewhat from leaving the house when I'm in another room (imagine looking out the window and seeing your DS naked playing in the middle of the neighborhood park and you didn't even know he'd gone out. . .I always lock the chain now







).


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
Well, I didn't mean that putting locks on the doors was to be used as some sort of punishment, like if the parents said "Since you are such a bad boy we will put LOCKS ON THE DOORS to keep you locked up!" It might just be a thing one could choose to do for safety (or not, if it's illegal in some states as was mentioned above). Excactly the same way that I sometimes lock the door with the extra security lock to prevent my two-year-old from running out into the road. Nothing to do with discipline at all.

I don't even know whether putting locks on the doors would be necessary or the right thing for the family in question, I just meant that by definition locking the doors has a logical connection with children going out without leave, whereas stopping them from going to a party is completely unconnected.

I think they should just explain to him why he shouldn't run off like that.







:

I'm undecided on the lock issue. Part of me really wants to put another deadbolt high up, the other part says "what if there is a fire and they need to get out..."

fire...playing in street...fire.....playing in street......hhhm.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't buy that this punishment was a logical consequence because it kept the child safe unless the mother also didn't take the kid with her to the grocery store, to the bank, etc. If it was just the birthday party but the child still left the house for other reasons, then it had nothing to do with keeping him safe. It was simply a punishment. And pretty unrelated.


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

I think that not going to the party was appropriate since it was the second time he did it in the same week. I assume, however, that things were not handled in an effective way the first time since it happened again so I see why OP would question their discipline techniques.

Running outside is extremely serious and should be treated as such. If that means using a punishment for those parents, so be it. It is always better than having the kid getting run over by a car or kidnapped or just going on to think that what he did was not that bad. If my DD would even so much as put one foot in the street or start running in the opposite direction, I would most certainly not drop the issue until I knew for sure that she either understood why she cant do that or that she was too scared to dare try that again. I live in the city so I might be more sensitive to that, but that is a very serious thing to me.

I dont know how much missing a birthday party is going to help achieve anything, but I completely understand that it is serious enough to warrant such extreme measures. She should have called in advance or have her son call (I like that idea a lot).

As for the OPs son, it is unfortunate for him, but that can also be a goos learning opportunity. I think he may learn from that that actions can have consequences on other people too, that you need to respect other people s decisions even if it is not what their parents would do and that we sometimes get very disappointed by things out of our control.

Finally, I think that anyone who sees another parent that seems to be struggling with appropriate discipline can offer advice as long as it is in a polite, non-confrontational way. If a parent cannot handle constructive, caring criticism, I dont know how they can effectively discipline their children.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I think that was a very reasonable punishment. I honestly think you're making this way more about you/your son than it needs to be. Life is full of disappointments.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I
Child runs and hides from mom, laughing while doing so...
*natural consequence*: Mom doesn't feel up to taking child back to the same place because she lacks the energy and desire to chase child again....resulting in an *imposed consequence* of declining the next invitation.

We went through a period when DS was younger when his huge meltdowns anytime we had to leave meant that I stopped going some places with him, period.

Imposed consequence, yes. Necessary for the sanity of everyone in the family? Also yes.

Sure, every time he said "I want to go to the castle park," i could have said "Honey, the last time we went, it was time to go get Daddy from work and you pitched a fit and refused to come with me and I had to climb into the castle to get you, so if we go there you have to promise not to pitch a fit." and just gone..... in fact, we did that a few times. And it was setting everyone up for failure. And I was 8.5 months pregnant and could no longer squeeze into the play structure to retrieve him.

So we didn't go, even when he asked, and when he asked, the answer was "I don't want to chase you and have to carry you out of the park when you have a fit." So it was a punishment, in that sense, and it was imposed - but it made no sense whatsoever to keep banging our heads against that wall.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I really feel like some of the responses here are coming from the more wishy washy side of GD...

I'm probably one of the people you are referring to. There's not a thing in the world wishy washy about me. Not being defensive, just the facts.

I've often said it's a weak mom that feels a need to hit their kid. By the same token, it takes a strong mom who loves herself and her children to stand against bringing punishment into the home, focusing rather on building a relationship experience by experience as we grow together.

If my 6 year old went to a neighbor's house without telling me and then ran from me, taking away a birthday party wouldn't solve whatever caused that to happen. It would be a giant heads up to me that my attention was needed in an immediate way to figure out what had gone so horribly awry.


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## Sage_SS (Jun 1, 2007)

I haven't read any of the other replies, but I think the mother did the right thing. I have done the same thing, and will do the same thing in the future.

It would have been nice if she could have called and warned you tho. Although I did this once and then spent 5 mins on the phone justifying my decision while they insisted that it wasn't fair for my daughter not to attend a birthday party as a consequence of her actions.







:


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm probably one of the people you are referring to. There's not a thing in the world wishy washy about me. Not being defensive, just the facts.

I've often said it's a weak mom that feels a need to hit their kid. By the same token, it takes a strong mom who loves herself and her children to stand against bringing punishment into the home, focusing rather on building a relationship experience by experience as we grow together.

If my 6 year old went to a neighbor's house without telling me and then ran from me, taking away a birthday party wouldn't solve whatever caused that to happen. It would be a giant heads up to me that my attention was needed in an immediate way to figure out what had gone so horribly awry.

Well I don't know what you read in my post that suggested that I do anything different than what you just outlined.
ITA with it...

It just seems like this whole thing has been blown out of proportion...like she beat her kid, or grounded him for a month.

What she did, keeping him home from the party, might be less than ideal, sure. But it isn't child abuse, and I am sure that the kid will be alright. I think that what he did was a really big deal, very dangerous, and in most households it would have earned him a spanking.
I would have imposed a consequence of some sort, and I try to avoid that at all costs.

I just feel like a lot of pp's are glazing over the seriousness of his actions in this instance. Like it is no big deal what he did. I don;t think he needs to be punished, but he needs to understand that he can NEVER do that again.

I don't think that what the mom did was all that serious considering the circumstances.
It is not what I would have done personally, but it really isn't worth it to me to pass some sort of judgment on her based on such a little thing. Sheesh!

She isn't even the OP...I wonder how she feels about dozens of strangers grading her parenting practices/decisions on the internet?


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2* 
On another note, parents whose children run away from them. Well, DH and I call to our children before they get too far away that "we are going this way and we hope they come with us" (we've explained to our children that we will never ever leave them, but sometimes we need to go a different way and it would be really sucky if they went another way); most of the time this works. I almost never run after my children (unless they are in danger); I definately would not have chased my child for 30 minutes (I probably would have said, "Well, I'm going home now and going to bed. . .I'll probably lock the door so I hope you come too so you don't have to sleep outside).
.

tried it....he didn't care.....he was excited to stay with his friend...it encouraged him to hide and made the sit. worse. He really didn't want to go home, he was having fun. We NEEDED to get home, I had a daycare mom that would be there soon....depending on me to watch her kid so she could go to work....and I depend on the income to feed my children.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

mamazee, thank you for offering such gentle solutions.

peace


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu* 
..but it is definitely a consequence the mom is free to throw out...

i agree - except that it is a *punishment* that the mom is free to throw out. the words consequence and punishment are not synonymous...

peace


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Do not confuse gentle discipline with never having a punishment.

i think that being non-punitive is a pillar of gentle discipline.

my take is this: do not confuse non-punitive with permissive.

peace


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
Do not confuse gentle discipline with never having a punishment.









:


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
i agree - except that it is a *punishment* that the mom is free to throw out. the words consequence and punishment are not synonymous...

peace

Well, I guess I must differ than a lot of GD moms here in that I think parental intervention in discipline is sometimes nessecary, and good. In my mind, safety issues take precedence and fall under a different category. There are only so many tricks in my bag and hardly any of them would work if the child wanted to do something risky and dangerous.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
yes, while he laughed at me, dodged inbetween other people's houses and behind them...all along a boat canal. I think my feelings after being disrespected like that ARE very natural...AND my natural feelings are valid. When he asked to go to that friends house next time, I didn't feel like dealing with that crap again, so I said "no"....I don't want to chase you. We'll try again another time.

Well I wasn't surprised that he let you chase him or that he laughed at you, but that you actually engaged in chasing him for 30 minutes. That just seems incredibly odd to me. I know better than to chase my dog, much less my kid. There's always a faster way to get them to come!

You could still have a discussion on the way home and he could still miss out on the next play date (if you feel that will be effective).
At least in your case it was the same place you were not going to visit again so soon and you did tell him you'd try again another time. There is some logic to it.

Your DS' friend can deal with him not coming over for a playdate right away because one: unlike a birthday party there hasn't been this big build-up to it and importance around it, and two: he witnessed the reason why you declined the playdate invitation.

OP, I feel really bad for your DS. I guess some people just think GD means no physical punishment because many responses on this thread are not at all GD as I understand it.









And yes you (general you) should be careful how much your punishments inconvenience (and in the OP's case, hurt) other people.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Do some of you all really think it is somehow damaging and horrible to deny a child a birthday party as a consequence for taking off to the neighbours and refusing to come home, running away from your parents when they come for you, instigating an hour long drama... TWICE in a week? Does it really matter so much if the consequence is 'natural' or 'logical' or simply the parent saying: No way, dude, you don't pull that crap without fallout?

This is where 'GD' kinda gets off track for me. IMO there is NOTHING wrong with a parent refusing a b-day party after that, and it does not have to be simply about keeping a child safe in the moment... which some folks here seem to think makes it invalid or not gentle or somehow crushing to the child's delicate psyche.

I mean, back in the day there was a lot of parental punishment that was disrespectful, mean, and really out of line. But we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here! Our children are not delicate flowers who can't handle a bit of actual parenting. I think some of us advocate going so far the other way, questioning always ourselves and not the kids (a la 'omg why would you chase him??'), and the kids just do whatever they please while we sit around psychoanalyzing and taking such pains to not damage the little sweeties that we render ourselves inert. Yk???


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't think it damages kids, but I think it can damage our relationship with our kids. If I had a bad few days and my mom took away something as important to a child as a birthday party, then next time I was having a rough time, I sure wouldn't tell my mom about it. Punishing the behavior instead of finding out what problem is causing the behavior just doesn't make sense to me. I appreciate that it can be done gently, but I don't think it's effective - effective at stopping the behavior, yes; but not effective at solving the problem behind the behavior or keeping communication open for solving future problems.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, there is having a rough time, and then there is taking off and refusing to come home. I think letting kids away with disrespectful things that negatively affect other family members damages relationships - I think it makes kids think they are the centre of the universe, especially when they pull drama and mama and daddy sit around questioning themselves ad nauseum and acting like the kid is made of glass. Yk?

I mean, I would want to find out what's going on that my kid took off twice in a week and wouldn't come home. For sure. But unless there was a seriously good reason, I would feel comfortable with removing a wanted privilege over it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounded from the OP like the kid didn't know he shouldn't go to a friend's house after school without telling his parents. I did the exact same thing when I was in kindergarten so I'm certainly identifying with this kid. My mom grounded me and physically punished me. My impression is that the running away was probably as a result of him being punished for this first thing. So if the first issue had been handled better, maybe the other two issues (the two times he ran away) wouldn't have come up. I see this as a good example of how punishment makes things worse.

If my daughter didn't come home after school and I'd found out she was at a friend's house, I wouldn't hide my anger and fear, and she'd see that and I'd talk to her about why it scared me. But I wouldn't punish her.

I also don't understand why the parent whose house the boy in the OP was at didn't call the parents to find out why an unexpected kid was at their house. If a child showed up here unannounced, I'd think of it as my responsibility to make sure the parents knew where he/she was. I wouldn't consider it the responsibility of a little kid. That age is where kids are just learning that they aren't the center of the universe. By 7 or 8, kids know better how everything they do (not just hurting people but even just playing somewhere) effects those around them. At 6, they know if they hit someone or don't share it effects others, but they don't get that even seemingly good behavior (playing well with another child) can negatively effect others (mom doesn't know where you're playing well with another child). I see this as a developmental issue rather than a behavior issue. And potentially a good learning experience if handled well. Instead, though, the child is running away from his parents, and the situation is even worse.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think you're adding details that aren't necessarily true. The first time maybe he didn't know any better, but then there is the refusing to come home for an hour. And by the second time, kid knew better. Was he punished the first time? Doesn't sound like it to me.

ITA that if a kindergarten age kid showed up at my house I would make sure the parents knew where s/he was.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds to me like he probably was punished the first time. And I thought maybe he was refusing to come home because he knew when he got home he'd get punished.

I guess we're just seeing the same story through different eyes.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu* 
Well, I guess I must differ than a lot of GD moms here in that I think parental intervention in discipline is sometimes nessecary, and good. In my mind, safety issues take precedence and fall under a different category. There are only so many tricks in my bag and hardly any of them would work if the child wanted to do something risky and dangerous.

i suppose it depends on how you define parental intervention.

if your bag o' tricks includes such intervention as a swat on the rear-end, time outs, and grounding, then we disagree. and that's ok.

if, however, your definition of intervention means parenting proactively, lots of instruction with practicing and training, and correction that is focused on the heart, then we are on the same sheet of music.

peace


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

It just seems like the root of the problem is a less than optimal relationship with the parents, and this punishment is not very likely to fix it.

I also don't think there was a huge, real danger to the child. As long as he knows well enough not to run into the street or climb over fences with big dogs behind them or anything like that, was there really anything bad likely to happen to him? Kidnapped? Are people still scaring their kids that bad strangers drive around in vans kidnapping kids? I think the real "danger" is just to the parents' peace of mind as far as not knowing where he was.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
But I still don't get what good grounding does. Really. I don't.

i agree that grounding does no 'good.' i think grounding is a bandaid on a gaping wound.

this is my take: a parent feels helpless and powerless (because the child is doing something over which the parent has no control, maybe it's even semi dangerous), the parent _needs_ to *do* something - to feel some level of control. on the surface grounding seems like a solution; it does meet the parent's immediate need. [this is also true of spanking]

but what does grounding really teach the child? being raised in a punitive home taught me how to do a cost/benefit analysis whenever i wanted to do something, which included (as a teenager) climbing out my window in the middle of the night to meet my boyfriend. i knew i'd be grounded, but i was prepared to "do the time" if/when it was worth it for me to go to a party. my attitude was this: grounding? is that all you got?

peace


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I get that they were really upset with their son (age 6) -- he had gone over to a neighbor's house without permission and didn't come back when asked to. Instead, he ran the other direction when the parents came to find him. It took them nearly an hour to find him/bring him home. He did this twice in one week. Once, Wed and then again on Friday.
It is difficult to guess what family dynamics led to this situation. For me, it would be such a complete "rock my world" shock if my six year old did this, there is no way I would feel reassured it wouldn't happen again just by keeping them home from a party. That kind of response wouldn't factor in my mind as ensuring this problem had been effectively addressed.

This is where abstract punishments don't work for me. I would need to get underneath a situation like this and comprehend the 'why and what' of it all. This isn't because I think my child's behavior is always my fault. It's because, in my experience, the changes that are most effective are those that spring from the specifics of the actual situation, and the party just has nothing to do with this behavior at all. Whatever I did, it would tie in to the original situation where the child was leaving without anyone knowing, and not returning, and avoiding the parents when they tried to find him. I believe there are changes to be made that relate clearer to those behaviors. I think the closer your response is to the actual behavior, the more effective that response will be.


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## Cassiopeia (Sep 27, 2006)

I don't think it makes much sense either. Missing a birthday party that isn't your own doesn't have that much of an effect on a 6yo, ime. What are they going to do when he runs away again and there's no party for him to miss? Enh, they can do what they want but I don't see this working very well.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I agree Heartmama, that if my kid were to do that I would be really, really shocked and would want to know what was going on. Going to a friend's without saying I would be curious about (um intensely curious and really it wouldn't happen because I wouldn't not know where she was for long enough). Refusing to come home though is a whole other layer, doing it twice is a whole other layer, and I think at that point removing a privilege is a perfectly appropriate thing to do. I wouldn't do it on its own, I would explain how dangerous it was and mama and whoever else were totally freaked out and why did you do that etc. But there would be very likely no birthday party or other similar looked-forward-to thing at my house over something like that.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Although I understand why the mother punished in this manner, I don't think it's very effective. A child who repeatedly runs away from a neighbor's house should not be permitted to go to that neighbor's house. A birthday party for another child really has nothing to do with the "infraction."

To me, attending a birthday party is more than just "fun." It's honoring a commitment and a promise that was made when they RSVPed. It's helping a friend celebrate their birthday. The mother allowed her child to break a promise (or broke the promise for him). I know the child is only 6, but still...they promised a 6yo that they would be at his party and they didn't keep that promise, and that's just sad.

That said, I sometimes "flake out" on informal get-togethers if I notice through DD's behavior that she needs to re-connect with me and we'll stay home and paint and play in the yard together. But DD rarely knows about a pending event (she's only 4) until the day before, and no one is disappointed because they were informal playgroups or what have you.


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
...................
but what does grounding really teach the child? being raised in a punitive home taught me how to do a cost/benefit analysis whenever i wanted to do something, which included (as a teenager) climbing out my window in the middle of the night to meet my boyfriend. i knew i'd be grounded, but i was prepared to "do the time" if/when it was worth it for me to go to a party. my attitude was this: grounding? is that all you got?

peace

What would you propose to your situation then that wouldn't warrant a " is that all you got?" Talking? Because as far as I see it talking, grounding, time-outs and even spanking(if not 'abusive') can all warrant a 'is that all you got?' depending on the child. So then what is left to do?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
What would you propose to your situation then that wouldn't warrant a " is that all you got?" Talking? Because as far as I see it talking, grounding, time-outs and even spanking(if not 'abusive') can all warrant a 'is that all you got?' depending on the child. So then what is left to do?

The thing to do, IMO, is to reconnect with the child and have a better relationship. Have you read Hold On To Your Kids? I thought that explained really well how kids can get disconnected from their parents and oriented toward peers instead, and what behavior problems come from that. And it doesn't mean the parenting is bad - good parents get disconnected from their kids all the time. There are so many outside influences in this world that cause disconnection. So lots of family time, one-on-one time if possible, without outside influences like TV.


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## sweetmama3 (Apr 9, 2008)

We are not talking "best men" who are grown adults, we are talking children, and if my Child did this, I would do the exact same thing. In this day and age, Im sorry, but my 7yo NEVER has permission to leave the house without me knowing.
ANd when you have other pressing issues, like a crying baby, that needs to be fed, or dinner in the oven, or similar situations, it is absolutely unnessessary, and 100% disrespectful for a 6yo to act in this manner.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
Well if your bestman runs from the police ..... he will likely miss your wedding as well.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

OKAY...Why are we Hemming and Hawing about this woman's parenting skills?
She isn't even participating in this thread!!!! This is getting a little silly...yk?

I think the only thing that anyone here disagrees about is whether or not the child should have had parent imposed consequence in this situation.

I haven't seen anyone say that they wouldn't talk to their child about it if this happened. Someone punishing or imposing consequences on their child does not automatically equate to "not getting to the root of the problem". I would imagine that one can do both, yes?

When you go through and read this whole thread most everyone is pretty much saying the same thing...
Obviously this is a situation where there has probably been less than optimal parenting in the past, and this child is not getting his needs met. He ran away, which is alarming for most of us on this board. But isn't this EXACTLY why we are all trying to find a better way (GD)?

We are basically preaching to the choir here!

I don't think what this Mom did was GD, and I don't think that anyone is saying it is.
I also don't think it is outrageous to keep a kid home from a birthday party, esp since she was probably worried that he would take off from the party (is that SO far fetched??!!).

And the Mama that we are talking about isn't even participating in this thread


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
i suppose it depends on how you define parental intervention.

if your bag o' tricks includes such intervention as a swat on the rear-end, time outs, and grounding, then we disagree. and that's ok.

if, however, your definition of intervention means parenting proactively, lots of instruction with practicing and training, and correction that is focused on the heart, then we are on the same sheet of music.

peace

I think we are on the same page. Except that I think time outs with loads of instruction and teaching,and love, for violent behavior can be a good thing. But that is a different subject.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I agree Heartmama, that if my kid were to do that I would be really, really shocked and would want to know what was going on. Going to a friend's without saying I would be curious about (um intensely curious and really it wouldn't happen because I wouldn't not know where she was for long enough). Refusing to come home though is a whole other layer, doing it twice is a whole other layer, and I think at that point removing a privilege is a perfectly appropriate thing to do. I wouldn't do it on its own, I would explain how dangerous it was and mama and whoever else were totally freaked out and why did you do that etc. But there would be very likely no birthday party or other similar looked-forward-to thing at my house over something like that.

I totally agree. And in that sense, you would be using your wisdom as a mother to turn a situation around. Kids don't always see the end of something.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

I think some of us advocate going so far the other way, questioning always ourselves and not the kids (a la 'omg why would you chase him??'), and the kids just do whatever they please while we sit around psychoanalyzing and taking such pains to not damage the little sweeties that we render ourselves inert. Yk???

No that does not describe me and my family at all! You sound like one of those critics of unschooling who don't understand much about it and say things like "wow I'm glad my parents didn't unschool me, I wouldn't be able to balance my checkbook if they did".

And sorry but I think it's ridiculous to chase a child for 30 mins (where is the dignity?--plus it escalated the whole situation but that's not to say it's just fine and dandy that the kid runs from his mama) but I did come back to this thread to apologize to moondiapers for being too harsh in my reply. I really am sorry and it's been bothering me, but this is the first time I've been able to get back online to say that.

ETA: Also I have a cousin who did the running away from his parents thing (often because he hated school and did not want to go, he also threw up a lot) and they had some serious parenting defects (his mother is a teacher and never seemed to be able to leave that role at school) they never wanted to face. So this thread does hit a nerve. This kid was always punished, never really connected with and he is a pretty troubled young man at this point.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I also don't think there was a huge, real danger to the child. As long as he knows well enough not to run into the street or climb over fences with big dogs behind them or anything like that, was there really anything bad likely to happen to him? Kidnapped? Are people still scaring their kids that bad strangers drive around in vans kidnapping kids? I think the real "danger" is just to the parents' peace of mind as far as not knowing where he was.

I just started letting my 9 yo DD play out front by herself- that's not leaving the lawn at all. If DH comes home and she's out front he makes her come in. I don't think it's unreasonable to say a 6 year old should not be going to other houses by himself.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
I don't think a punishment is called for in this situation at all. The consequence of what happened was that the parents got upset, and they should of course tell him that.

The difference between putting locks on the doors and keeping him home from the party is that putting locks on the doors will actually prevent him from running out on his own again, while keeping him home from the party is done only to hurt him and thereby scare him from disobeying again: "This is what happens when you don't do as we say."

Although I don't think putting locks on the doors is a "natural" consequence, rather a "logical" one. While keeping him home from the party is just punishment.

In the situation he was in it sounded like his parents had allowed him the freedom to leave the house and he was already out of it therefore locks on the doors would not have anything to do with what happened and would only keep him from running away if his parents don't actually allow him out of the house in the first place. It would also have to be a very heavy duty lock to keep a six year old in and as one person mentioned it may be a hazard in a fire and the punishment element would still be there since he wouldn't be allowed out of the locked doors.

There is also the issue of kidnapping and running into a street. Kids don't always get kidnapped when they run off but it is very very easy to lure kids into a home or a car by acting sweet and nice and knowing the rules doesn't make it less likely to happen. I used to think my parents rules about going off on an adventure in a stranger's car were stupid until I found out first hand what happens to kids who do this and I was twice this kids age. Just because he got home safely both times does not mean there isn't a safety issue going on that needs to be addressed.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

OK, I'm a little afraid to come back to the thread that I started. It's spawned some really interesting discussion about punishment.

It was not my intention to debate my friends' parenting skills (though I will freely admit that when I posted I was royally irritated and so it probably came off that way). For the sake of privacy, I want to back off from discussing their parenting.

*My intent, thinking back on this was to make one point, and to ask a question.*

*The point was*:
Sometimes punishment has consequences beyond what you intend for your child. In this particular instance, my son (an introvert who has a hard time making friends) was much more hurt by the punishment than his friend (an extrovert who lets things roll off his back a bit more). (And yes it was punishment. The parents were not afraid he was going to run off at the party. He was still going to school. The punishment was not being able to go to the party.)

*The question was:*
What OTHER ways of handling this kind of problem are there? I can't ever see my ds doing this (heck, he won't even go to the neighbor's by himself), but I could imagine dd doing this.

Obviously one part of the solution is to work on the parent-child connection. But that's a "slow" solution. How do you get it through a 6 yo's thick skull that this is REALLY dangerous? Kids DO this sort of thing. Even kids with good connections.

I remember when I was in kindergarten, I went home with one of my friends to his house rather than going straight home. (This was back in the "old days" when kindergarteners walked to the neighborhood school by themselves and no one thought twice about it.) What I remember from that situation was that my mom was pretty upset. Specifically I remember my mom telling me that I could NEVER go anywhere without telling her where I was going AND that she was really upset with my friend's mom for not calling. I don't remember a punishment at all. (My parents were oddly good about that sort of thing. They didn't punish for really big things. They spanked/yelled when they lost their temper. It was clear that it was a momentary loss of control, not a discipline strategy.)

Obviously what my mom did was effective with me. But then, I'm a rule-follower. I'm genuinely bothered when people break/disregard the rules. (Yes, I'm the one in the express check out line eyeing your 16 things in the "15 or fewer" line!)

What about a kid, even a kid with good connections, who isn't a rule follower?


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I don't think it damages kids, but I think it can damage our relationship with our kids. If I had a bad few days and my mom took away something as important to a child as a birthday party, then next time I was having a rough time, I sure wouldn't tell my mom about it. Punishing the behavior instead of finding out what problem is causing the behavior just doesn't make sense to me. I appreciate that it can be done gently, but I don't think it's effective - effective at stopping the behavior, yes; but not effective at solving the problem behind the behavior or keeping communication open for solving future problems.

Perfectly said!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
How do you get it through a 6 yo's thick skull that this is REALLY dangerous? Kids DO this sort of thing. Even kids with good connections.

<snip>

What about a kid, even a kid with good connections, who isn't a rule follower?

You instill a logical consequence like not going to a party the very next day that is at a busy rec center.

I think We are in the same city (sorry if I am wrong about that), and I think that I might even know which rec center you were at...busy place on a busy street with lots of exits...the more I have thought about it the more this seems like it could be a parent imposed logical consequence, depending on how it was handled.
It's not like the party was a week later...it was the very next day. DS had run away less than 24 hours prior, and also 72 hours prior to the party.

I think it makes sense. It might not be perfect, but I really don't think it is that far fetched. If something really bad would have happened to him while he was gone (getting hit by a car, kidnapped (this is a big city)) then he would not have been at a B-day party the next day.

I am just surprised that so many people think this was a horrible decision. Could have been better, but it will probably be effective if she also talks to him and gets to the root of the problem.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Someone punishing or imposing consequences on their child does not automatically equate to "not getting to the root of the problem". I would imagine that one can do both, yes?

Yes and no. You can punish your child, and still have conversations and get to the root of things. And that can feel really great for your family.

But IME if I truly get to the root of it - both the child's behavior and their feelings, as well as my feelings and behavior - the punishment becomes completely moot. And other solutions are come to. Making the child suffer for his behavior is no longer an issue, because I'm actually dealing with the underlying situation in a proactive way. I've been on all sides.. goodness, I started out parenting thinking the Pearls might be on to something! Then GD, and now non-coercive parenting and I've just found that this way not only _feels_ better, it _works_ just as well in the short run, and even better over time.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
Yes and no. You can punish your child, and still have conversations and get to the root of things. And that can feel really great for your family.

But IME if I truly get to the root of it - both the child's behavior and their feelings, as well as my feelings and behavior - the punishment becomes completely moot. And other solutions are come to. Making the child suffer for his behavior is no longer an issue, because I'm actually dealing with the underlying situation in a proactive way. I've been on all sides.. goodness, I started out parenting thinking the Pearls might be on to something! Then GD, and now non-coercive parenting and I've just found that this way not only _feels_ better, it _works_ just as well in the short run, and even better over time.

But there are times where getting to the root of the problem can take a couple weeks. In a serious safety matter like this, where there is a really good chance he will do it again, I can understand why the Mom would feel a need to impose a consequence. I don't see how this consequence was just about making the child suffer. It really seems pretty logical to me....I doubt that they were able to get to the root of the problem by the next day, bc I am guessing it is a big problem that would trigger his actions.

I don;t think this was the perfect way to handle this, but it is a heck of a lot more GD than what would have happened in most households.

And we now have 6 pages of unsolicited parenting advice for this poor woman


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

The OP has stated clearly that the mother was not concerned about safety at the party. She states:

"Sometimes punishment has consequences beyond what you intend for your child. In this particular instance, my son (an introvert who has a hard time making friends) was much more hurt by the punishment than his friend (an extrovert who lets things roll off his back a bit more). (And yes it was punishment. The parents were not afraid he was going to run off at the party. He was still going to school. The punishment was not being able to go to the party.)"

As far as I can tell, the folks who think this was a great punishment or at least just not that big a deal (life is full of disappointments and it's not like it was this kid's wedding) honestly don't care about the effect this decision had on other people.

I can accept that. I don't share values with the whole world and in my house behaving with kindness toward others is valued. It would matter to me the affect my decision had on my dds' friends, and if unavoidable, I'd seek to mitigate it as best I could.

What to do about the running? I honestly can't imagine chasing my kids when they are 6. 3, sure. 6...I'd stand and wait. Unless this happened as we were loading into the car, I can't see how it would affect attending an important birthday party.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
*As far as I can tell, the folks who think this was a great punishment or at least just not that big a deal (life is full of disappointments and it's not like it was this kid's wedding) honestly don't care about the effect this decision had on other people.
*
I can accept that. I don't share values with the whole world and in my house behaving with kindness toward others is valued. It would matter to me the affect my decision had on my dds' friends, and if unavoidable, I'd seek to mitigate it as best I could.


I really don't see how you would come to that conclusion.

Life is full of disappointments. It sound like the OP's child had a VERY nice party (rec center w/ a pool) and other friends came to celebrate. I really can't imagine him being traumatized by this. Upset, bummed out, let down-sure.

I do think that they should have let the OP know ahead of time...but geez, the mom even came to the party early to help set up. I would be so grateful if someone did that for me! She had the right to decide to not bring her child, even at the last minute, without consulting the OP.

I am wondering if she was worried that the OP might try and talk her out of it if she called and told her first. By just showing up she avoided that. Not saying it's right, but maybe that is why.

Seriously, I think this whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion.

I guess this mom is just completely inconsiderate of other people, and quite possibly a child abuser?

I DO understand the OP's frustration, but I think this is just life. Not worth getting upset with the other Mama about...ESPECIALLY since she still honored her commitment to help with the party.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

And I am wondering how the OP knows safety at the party wasn't a concern...Is she assuming that or did the other mom say that point blank?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

Obviously one part of the solution is to work on the parent-child connection. But that's a "slow" solution. How do you get it through a 6 yo's thick skull that this is REALLY dangerous? Kids DO this sort of thing. Even kids with good connections.

What about a kid, even a kid with good connections, who isn't a rule follower?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
But there are times where getting to the root of the problem can take a couple weeks. In a serious safety matter like this, where there is a really good chance he will do it again, I can understand why the Mom would feel a need to impose a consequence.

It has been my experience, as the mom of a kid who did engage in serious and unsafe behavior, that the approaches typically perceived as "slower" are _vital_. IME, addressing the reasons behind the behavior (the root of the problem, the child's concerns and/or skills) results in the most durable solutions and the most durable change. (And here I don't mean just nurturing connection, but helping kids learn skills (if needed) and working together with the child to find a solution to the problem, with the child's input.) And when the issue is very serious, I want a durable solution. IME, punishments and rewards don't solve problems. Temporarily, it might help but it doesn't actually solve anything durably. It certainly doesn't address the root of the problem, and it doesn't teach any skills. I won't rely on punishments or rewards (or the threat/promise of punishments/rewards) to keep my kid safe. Kids may not be thinking, in that moment when they experience an impulse, of the consequence they got last time. They may not care, at that moment, about the consequence they might experience or the punishment they might get. They can have trouble with decision making and thinking things through, regardless of consequences. And so on. It has also been my experience that using punishments and rewards can result in more frustration and conflict, interfering with our getting to a solution for the initial unsafe behavior. And again, I want to get to that solution.

IME, if I really want to keep my kid safe I have to do a couple of things. I have to work with my kid to solve the problem. Together. And that can take time. So I also have to provide a level of supervision that keeps my kids safe. Yes, I know, sometimes a mom has to pee or help another kid. But having had a 7 year old who engaged in unsafe, serious behavior I can say that it was worth the time and effort to provide very close supervision ("never farther away than the next room, always able to clearly hear and preferably see what was going on, so I can intervene swiftly to keep everyone safe" kind of supervision) until the problem was solved to the degree that I felt safe backing off on that very close supervision (which actually happened little by little).

So I imagine if my 6 year old were to do something like this, we'd have that very serious discussion where I talked about how serious and potentially dangerous it is to leave without telling me. I'd make it very clear that I need him to ask me if it's okay to go somewhere/that he tell me where he's going, that it's important I know where he is. If it happened a second time, we'd problem-solve together. I'd listen to my kid's concern, present my concerns, and collaborate with my child on a solution that works for both of us. Not one that works just for him, but one that satisfactorily and realistically addresses both my concerns and his. We'd make a plan for safety. And I'd supervise closely until I felt confident that it was safe to back off a bit on that supervision.

And I really can't imagine chasing my 6 year old (like chfriend, I'd just wait), unless his running away were likely to put him in danger. And whether or not it presented immediate danger, his running away from me would be a whole other issue to address-together, proactively.

YMMV.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I really can't imagine him being traumatized by this. Upset, bummed out, let down-sure.

ISeriously, I think this whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion.

I guess this mom is just completely inconsiderate of other people, and quite possibly a child abuser?


I must have missed where someone called this person a child abuser or said that she was completely inconsiderate of other people. Could you please point out where that happened?

Respectfully, when your 6/7 year old has a best friend and they are an introvert, it honestly doesn't matter to them that they had "a nice party at a rec center." Or even that they got a large material haul. It matters to them that their *best friend* was there. It matters.

It doesn't matter to them that their best friend isn't there when they are littler but it does when they are 6/7.

I don't understand why people aren't taking the OP's word for it that it is a big deal. Traumatized: no she didn't say that. Hurt and a big deal, yes.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Is there any legitimate reason a parent is "allowed" to refuse a party (even if previously committed to the said party)?

Does gentle discipline equal no punishment?

What are abstract punishments (I don't get it)?

Are imposed consequences considered punishments?

Is honoring commitments more important than disciplining a child? Is there a way to do both?

Does gentle discipline only affect the child it's directed toward? (Does gd affect other people?)


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The thing to do, IMO, is to reconnect with the child and have a better relationship.

mamazee, i appreciate what you have brought to this thread. your insights are both proactive and practical. thank you.

peace


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kungfu_barbi* 
mamazee, i appreciate what you have brought to this thread. your insights are both proactive and practical. thank you.

peace









:


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Respectfully, when your 6/7 year old has a best friend and they are an introvert, it honestly doesn't matter to them that they had "a nice party at a rec center." Or even that they got a large material haul. It matters to them that their *best friend* was there. It matters.

It doesn't matter to them that their best friend isn't there when they are littler but it does when they are 6/7.

I don't understand why people aren't taking the OP's word for it that it is a big deal. Traumatized: no she didn't say that. Hurt and a big deal, yes.

I've been wondering now about something.

Lets imagine a different scenario.

The best friend's mother is a hard-core gentle disciplinarian. The best friend has a little brother who is 3. And just before the party starts, the mother calls to say that Little Brother doesn't want to get in his carseat, so she'll be unable to drive Best Friend to the party.

(for the sake of argument, lets add that mother cannot find anyone on short notice to either watch little brother while she delivers best friend, or give best friend a ride in time to make it to the party)

Does that change anyone's answers about how you shouldn't let your discipline affect the enjoyment of others or prevent you from honoring social committments? Because it is her choice to not force little brother into the carseat that is causing best friend to miss this party.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I must have missed where someone called this person a child abuser or said that she was completely inconsiderate of other people. Could you please point out where that happened?

Respectfully, when your 6/7 year old has a best friend and they are an introvert, it honestly doesn't matter to them that they had "a nice party at a rec center." Or even that they got a large material haul. It matters to them that their *best friend* was there. It matters.

It doesn't matter to them that their best friend isn't there when they are littler but it does when they are 6/7.

I don't understand why people aren't taking the OP's word for it that it is a big deal. Traumatized: no she didn't say that. Hurt and a big deal, yes.

Oh Come ON that is the gist of this thread...an exaggerated version, yes., but still...
I can't imagine one kid not being there ruining such a nice party. And if it did I really don;t fault the family that didn't bring their child. My Goddess, did this woman RSVP in blood or something??!!

The op's son had other friends there at the party...it's not like this was the only kid invited.

The world isn't going to revolve around my child, introvert or not. I am not implying that the op thinks that, more like some of the responses to this thread are implying that.

I never had any idea that someone might place that much importance on my son's presence at a celebration.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Is there any legitimate reason a parent is "allowed" to refuse a party (even if previously committed to the said party)?

_I'm sure there are reasons. I have never refused a party to my children unless it was a potentially dangerous situation(I have teens) and then I set them up with something to replace what they were missing out on. A movie, a sleepover etc. I haven't ever taken away a party as punishment but if a parent is punitive then I am sure they feel their reasons are valid and legitimate and it's not my job to judge that._

Does gentle discipline equal no punishment?

_For me yes. For me a large part of gd was deciding on the paradigm shift of non punitive teaching and leading and relationship building as opposed to the you do bad things you get punished paradigm._

What are abstract punishments (I don't get it)? Abstract punishments?_not a term I am familiar with_

Are imposed consequences considered punishments?

_I think so however sometimes there is a fine line between imposed and logical/natural punishments. My older kids would fight in the car so I imposed a consequence that I would turn around and go home at the first "bickering" because it was really distracting and dangerous. Some would consider it punishment but I consider it logical consequences. I just wouldn't endanger my family that way. Of course later on I discovered a technique that effectively ended their general bickering but until I discovered that I imposed that consequence for our safety and my sanity._

Is honoring commitments more important than disciplining a child? Is there a way to do both?

_I think often there is. The above example for instance was imposed upon my older girls in a very gentle way. Before a drive to a very important event for them I sat them down and explained my position on their aguing in the car and how it affected our safety etc. and that I would not be driving them there if it continued and would immediately turn back if it started. I also set them up for success by giving them stuff to do in the car and seating them away from each other whenever possible. My girls were about 8 and 11 when I did this so older and able to understand. I think if you are imposing consequences that do no relate to the behaviour though, then it will go to resentment in the child and not really address the issue at hand._

Does gentle discipline only affect the child it's directed toward? (Does gd affect other people

_Of course. Everything one human being does affects another, sometimes very directly and sometimes not so much. So does non-gd discipline. My children have been affected by seeing a spanking for example._

and for the record, I am not even remotely a permissive parent. I am all over things. I just make a concerted effort to keep our relationship strong and to explain over and over and to make serious allowances for tired, age, hunger, and emotions and to allow them to express emotion in a healthy way that is age appropriate.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

What a GREAT post allgirls























I always love hearing (reading!) what you have to say.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
In the situation he was in it sounded like his parents had allowed him the freedom to leave the house and he was already out of it therefore locks on the doors would not have anything to do with what happened and would only keep him from running away if his parents don't actually allow him out of the house in the first place.

Ok, I didn't understand that. I assumed that he was inside and had actually gone out without telling or asking his mother.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
Is there any legitimate reason a parent is "allowed" to refuse a party (even if previously committed to the said party)?

_I'm sure there are reasons. I have never refused a party to my children unless it was a potentially dangerous situation(I have teens) and then I set them up with something to replace what they were missing out on. A movie, a sleepover etc. I haven't ever taken away a party as punishment but if a parent is punitive then I am sure they feel their reasons are valid and legitimate and it's not my job to judge that._

Does gentle discipline equal no punishment?

_For me yes. For me a large part of gd was deciding on the paradigm shift of non punitive teaching and leading and relationship building as opposed to the you do bad things you get punished paradigm._

What are abstract punishments (I don't get it)? Abstract punishments?_not a term I am familiar with_

Are imposed consequences considered punishments?

_I think so however sometimes there is a fine line between imposed and logical/natural punishments. My older kids would fight in the car so I imposed a consequence that I would turn around and go home at the first "bickering" because it was really distracting and dangerous. Some would consider it punishment but I consider it logical consequences. I just wouldn't endanger my family that way. Of course later on I discovered a technique that effectively ended their general bickering but until I discovered that I imposed that consequence for our safety and my sanity._

Is honoring commitments more important than disciplining a child? Is there a way to do both?

_I think often there is. The above example for instance was imposed upon my older girls in a very gentle way. Before a drive to a very important event for them I sat them down and explained my position on their aguing in the car and how it affected our safety etc. and that I would not be driving them there if it continued and would immediately turn back if it started. I also set them up for success by giving them stuff to do in the car and seating them away from each other whenever possible. My girls were about 8 and 11 when I did this so older and able to understand. I think if you are imposing consequences that do no relate to the behaviour though, then it will go to resentment in the child and not really address the issue at hand._

Does gentle discipline only affect the child it's directed toward? (Does gd affect other people

_Of course. Everything one human being does affects another, sometimes very directly and sometimes not so much. So does non-gd discipline. My children have been affected by seeing a spanking for example._

and for the record, I am not even remotely a permissive parent. I am all over things. I just make a concerted effort to keep our relationship strong and to explain over and over and to make serious allowances for tired, age, hunger, and emotions and to allow them to express emotion in a healthy way that is age appropriate.

Thank you SO much for answering that for me! I'm new to all this (I don't know if you've seen my October 14th post--but I'm new to gd)--your explanations are very helpful! I appreciate it...it's helping me understand a bit better!

Follow-up...I feel dumb, but, what's punitive?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I can't imagine one kid not being there ruining such a nice party. And if it did I really don;t fault the family that didn't bring their child. My Goddess, did this woman RSVP in blood or something??!!

No, she didn't RSVP in blood







, and if you read my update, I've calmed down a bit. The BIG mistake was in not letting us know ahead of time. That was inconsiderate and would have given me time to prepare ds.

There's a larger debate about the value of grounding a child, but maybe that deserves it's own thread. I'm actually one of the less "consentual" parents around here. I do time outs. I remove toys that are causing bickering/that are being misused. I've pulled over to the side of the road and refused to drive because my kids are making too much noise. But somehow I don't "get" grounding a child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I never had any idea that someone might place that much importance on my son's presence at a celebration.









That was part of my point. In THIS particular situation, my son placed a lot of value on his bf being there. More value than I think his parents realized. That combined with the questionable value of keeping him home from the party as a punishment, would lead me say that the parents should have considered the full impact of what they were doing. Not only on their son, but mine too. Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
Ok, I didn't understand that. I assumed that he was inside and had actually gone out without telling or asking his mother.

Well, he did both. I think I was the one who first mentioned locks (maybe a door alarm would have been a better suggestion -- something that tells them if he's slipped out) and my only intention there was: if he can't be trusted to be safe on his own, his parents have got to have a way to make sure he's safe. And that might include restricting his ability to go places on his own until he's more mature. That to me is a NATURAL consequence.

I wasn't suggesting locking him in as a punishment, but rather as a way for his parents to be able to keep him safe until he's able to make safer choices with their help.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
Thank you SO much for answering that for me! I'm new to all this (I don't know if you've seen my October 14th post--but I'm new to gd)--your explanations are very helpful! I appreciate it...it's helping me understand a bit better!

Follow-up...I feel dumb, but, what's punitive?

punitive means simply using punishment.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

LynnS6..I am going to just share something with you that happened to my daughter at her 5th birthday party.

It was a beautiful June day. I had invited a bunch of her friends to her party. Most of them had said yes to the invite. But it was a sunny weekend in spring and it had rained most of the previous 2 weeks. The day of the party was gorgous. One by one the parents called and couldn't make it.

One child showed up at her party. I was so







and upset for her. And I was so mad at the parents.

BUT she had a great time. She partied and had fun and played with us. We went out of our way to make sure she had as much fun as she could have with only one other child at the party.

I held that resentment for a long time and still am somewhat ticked at those parents. But my daughter is now nearly 14 and she doesn't even remember it. Kids are so resilient.

I think you are disappointed at what your friend did and for the reasons she provided as well. And I think not letting you know in advance was her biggest mistake with regard to your son. She could have at least given him time to get his disappointment out of the way before the actual party.

While I don't agree with her methods and they certainly are not methods I would use I do understand her frustration and desperation...I think this was a desperate attempt to curb behaviour that is frankly very frightening and frustrating for her as a mom. I could tell you another story about the same daughter above but I won't bore you. Let's just say I get why she did it. Disappearing kids and kids running into danger is heart-stopping for a mom.

I think the best you can do at this point is validate your sons disappointed feelings, validate your own disappointment for your son, highlight the good things about the party and move along.

In time this party will blend into a never ending memory of fantastic moments in his childhood that you provided for him by having parties that celebrate the moment he became your son.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

You cannot make decisions about your child's well-being based on whether or not someone else's feelings may be hurt.

I mean, I'm not saying you should do what you want and eff everyone else. But sometimes people are inconvenienced by my decisions, your decisions, anyone's decisions and it has to be dealt with.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
I've been wondering now about something.

Lets imagine a different scenario.

The best friend's mother is a hard-core gentle disciplinarian. The best friend has a little brother who is 3. And just before the party starts, the mother calls to say that Little Brother doesn't want to get in his carseat, so she'll be unable to drive Best Friend to the party.

(for the sake of argument, lets add that mother cannot find anyone on short notice to either watch little brother while she delivers best friend, or give best friend a ride in time to make it to the party)

Does that change anyone's answers about how you shouldn't let your discipline affect the enjoyment of others or prevent you from honoring social committments? Because it is her choice to not force little brother into the carseat that is causing best friend to miss this party.

She could call and the person throwing the party could send someone to get the "best man" if it was important enough to the kid with the birthday.

or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......

I really wonder why is fun to make it sound impossible to actually take care of everyone involved.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
No, she didn't RSVP in blood







, and if you read my update, I've calmed down a bit. The BIG mistake was in not letting us know ahead of time. That was inconsiderate and would have given me time to prepare ds.

There's a larger debate about the value of grounding a child, but maybe that deserves it's own thread. I'm actually one of the less "consentual" parents around here. I do time outs. I remove toys that are causing bickering/that are being misused. I've pulled over to the side of the road and refused to drive because my kids are making too much noise. But somehow I don't "get" grounding a child.

That was part of my point. In THIS particular situation, my son placed a lot of value on his bf being there. More value than I think his parents realized. That combined with the questionable value of keeping him home from the party as a punishment, would lead me say that the parents should have considered the full impact of what they were doing. Not only on their son, but mine too. Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".

Sorry...that really wasn't even directed at you, rather at some of the pp's who are, IMO, blowing this out of proportion.

I do understand that it would be very disappointing, even if your child wasn't an introvert. Owen would be really let down if his best friend couldn't come to his B-day (esp if he was expecting him to be there!) and he is one of the most outgoing kids you will meet.

But there were people equating this to keeping the best man home from a wedding, etc, and I think that is an exaggeration.

I agree that she should have told you in advance. I really wonder if she didn't want to have to justify her decision, maybe she was worried that you would have tried to talk her out of it. That doesn't make it okay by any means, I am just wondering if that was her motivation for being so inconsiderate.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......


with some other random stranger...

A cab? are you serious???? ALONE??? AT 6?? When this kid has been taking off on his own?????????


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Oh Come ON that is the gist of this thread...an exaggerated version, yes., but still...
I can't imagine one kid not being there ruining such a nice party. And if it did I really don;t fault the family that didn't bring their child. My Goddess, did this woman RSVP in blood or something??!!

The op's son had other friends there at the party...it's not like this was the only kid invited.

The world isn't going to revolve around my child, introvert or not. I am not implying that the op thinks that, more like some of the responses to this thread are implying that.

I never had any idea that someone might place that much importance on my son's presence at a celebration.









I don't understand why you would want to exagerate what people are saying to make sound as if their positions were ridiculous.

The world does not revolve around this child. His feelings were hurt. That matters.

My presence at many occasions has been very important. I have a large and close family and have made huge efforts to attend events of significance to members of it, sometimes at a sacrifice. I'm a valued member of my family and community. I hope my dds feel that as they grow up. That it really matters if they show up.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

A cab will take a child from point A (home) to point B (party) without making any stops. 6 year old children take cabs every day in NYC. I'm having trouble understanding what your point is.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
with some other random stranger...

A cab? are you serious???? ALONE??? AT 6?? When this kid has been taking off on his own?????????

I think this was the hypothetical situation, not the OP or her friend's situation this poster was referring to.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
A cab will take a child from point A (home) to point B (party) without making any stops. 6 year old children take cabs every day in NYC. I'm having trouble understanding what your point is.

Not MY 6 yo...esp since I have worked for cab companies and know what the cabbies in this city can be like. They don't do background checks or anything on them. In fact, the public school system here pays for some children to take taxis to and from school. The drivers that want to take school kids have to go through a pretty extensive background screening before thay can do it. The majority of the drivers at the companies I worked for (3 major co's) couldn't/wouldn't pass the screening.

There are A LOT of strange cabbies here. I cannot imagine just sending my 6 yo in a cab like that.

Definitely not safe!! You have NO IDEA who your kid is getting in the car with.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I tried to answer a hypothetical positing a mom with a 6 year old and toddler refusing a car set who had no option to call anyone to help and still wanted to get her kid to the party...

I'm afraid I'm unqualified to debate the relative savoriness of Oregonian cab drivers. I'll leave that to better problem solvers than me.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

yeah...I thought that it seemed like a pretty far fetched idea









no one in their right mind would just put their 6 yo in a cab alone without knowing anything about the driver in advance.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
She could call and the person throwing the party could send someone to get the "best man" if it was important enough to the kid with the birthday.

or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......

I really wonder why is fun to make it sound impossible to actually take care of everyone involved.

Sent in a cab??? Are you serious? You would put a 6 year old child in a cab by himself just so that he doesn't miss a party? That seems a bit extreme to me.

I think that the consequence for the child in the OP was fair and appropriate - if he didn't know that it wasn't safe to go somewhere without telling mom then how can you be sure that he would take care when crossing the street? With a stranger trying to lure him into his car. As parents we do what we have to to keep our kids safe, a punishment or consequence that works with your kids will not necessarily work with mine and at the end of the day all I want are my girls home and safe, if that means that they have to miss a party or event to help them learn then so be it.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
Me too! As if children have no rights, only "privileges".








:

I think stopping him from going to his friend's birthday party was an extremely harsh punishment. To call it a "consequence" doesn't change anything. The parents understood that this birthday party was a thing that they could really hurt him by taking from him. The fact that his mother went without him makes it even worse, I think.

ITA.

One thing I cannot abide is dressing up a punishment as a 'consequence' to make it sound OK. Ugh.

I personally think that not allowing a child to go to such a big thing as a birthday party is way, way over the top, especially for a 6 yo. It makes me wonder how tough your punishments have to get if you come out guns blazing at this age.

I'm also surprised to see how many people say that they'd do the same. I am starting to feel more and more alone as a parent who does not punish my children. Gosh, even my friends who do punish have never gone as far as stopping their kids going to a birthday party at that age. It makes my head spin.









There are a zillion other ways to teach a child not to disappear on you, without doing something like this.

And to the OP, I personally feel that it was disrespectful to your ds for his friend not to show up to the party. If I did punish my kids like this, which I don't, I would never do something that would disappoint another child. IMO that's just plain rude and uncaring. And if I did do that because I had no clue what else to do, I'd certainly call ahead of time and explain and apologise.

But then I think I'm waaaay different to the mainstream, and even to those who identify as gentle discipline here.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
She could call and the person throwing the party could send someone to get the "best man" if it was important enough to the kid with the birthday.

or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......

I really wonder why is fun to make it sound impossible to actually take care of everyone involved.

That wasn't my point.

My point was to try to separate out the answers that were mainly disapproving of a "mainstream" discipline technique (grounding).

I think the answers here were twisting up two different questions:
1)What do you do when your need to discipline your child affects the enjoyment of others;
2) Is grounding an appropriate answer to a child running away.

I'm more interested in the first, and I was trying to come up with a hypothetical that got thoughts on the first question, since the second question has now been discussed quite thoroughly.

(and for the record, in my town, it would take a good 30 minutes to get a cab to my house if I called it, and many birthday parties are run by just the moms, who will not necessarily have someone right there to send out to pick up the Best Friend).


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm fascinated that the suggestion that a cab be called is so attractive to people as a thing to get ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ABOUT. Hey, it was one idea.

I usually avoid these kinds of hypotheticals because they lead more CAPITAL LETTER answers rather than helpful discussions.

I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. I sure don't know what one would do if one also had a toddler who was capable of refusing the car seat for an hour when one had an important commitment...and of course the toddler suddenly developed the aversion with no warning so the parents couldn't anticipate it and allow enough time for a peaceful loading into the car and there are no support people in this family's life (trusted neighbors, friend, family) who could transport the 6 year old to the previous commitment and all the cabbies in town are insane child stealers.

Nope can't help you. Just grateful that I don't anticipate ever being quite so stuck.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. I sure don't know what one would do if one also had a toddler who was capable of refusing the car seat for an hour when one had an important commitment...and of course the toddler suddenly developed the aversion with no warning so the parents couldn't anticipate it and allow enough time for a peaceful loading into the car and there are no support people in this family's life (trusted neighbors, friend, family) who could transport the 6 year old to the previous commitment and all the cabbies in town are insane child stealers.

Nope can't help you. Just grateful that I don't anticipate ever being quite so stuck.

Ouch!


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
with some other random stranger...

A cab? are you serious???? ALONE??? AT 6?? When this kid has been taking off on his own?????????

The cab suggestion was not for the OP situation where the child had been running away, but a totally hypothetical scenario - for the purpose of flushing out ideas, I think - involving a younger sibling who didn't want to get in the carseat. Would it be reasonable to have the imaginary 6 year old miss the party, or force the imaginary unwilling 3yo into his seat. A seemingly "someone wins/someone loses" situation for which I think that there are probably a million solutions, all depending on the exact circumstances and individuals involved. The cab solution might not work for most - for me, that wouldn't feel comfortable. But I absolutely would - in this hypothetical situation - call the hosts of the party, and let them know what was going on, and if it was necessary for my 6yo to be there someone could come get him. If not, then we can either go later or something else entirely.

I was just at a birthday party, where a child was picked up because his parents couldn't bring him, and his presence was desired. Not really a big deal. Nice tidy solution, everyone wins.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. I sure don't know what one would do if one also had a toddler who was capable of refusing the car seat for an hour when one had an important commitment...and of course the toddler suddenly developed the aversion with no warning so the parents couldn't anticipate it and allow enough time for a peaceful loading into the car and there are no support people in this family's life (trusted neighbors, friend, family) who could transport the 6 year old to the previous commitment and all the cabbies in town are insane child stealers.

Nope can't help you. Just grateful that I don't anticipate ever being quite so stuck.

I know a woman whose son hates his carseat. Loathes it. It's a phase, he will get over it, and right now she's riding it out and trying to make things work, doing her darnedest to be totally present to him. To say that her family is "broken" because she has the patience to be with her son for an hour while he gets comfortable with the idea of getting back in his seat, instead of saying, "You know what? I'm the grown up and you will do what I say!" with some physical manhandling into his seat. My kids have always been fairly cooperative with their carseats - less some times than others - but um... to say that a 3 yo pitching a fit about a car seat and a mother trying to accomodate that is somehow a sign of a broken home isn't really fair. Manhandling a child into a carseat even if he is crying isn't exactly an example of stellar parenting. It's desperation parenting at best. I dont' judgen those who have done it (goodness, I've been frazzled and rushed myself many times!) but I also wouldn't turn it around and judge someone who chooses to honor all her children's needs, even if they're "unreasonable" or not as "important" in the eyes of someone else.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".

I get it. Totally. It would devastate my kids if a friend didn't show at their party with no good reason.

Those with more laid-back kids won't understand, but those of us with introverts most certainly do. For my kids, it would just about ruin their party, and make it hard work for me too.

As I said in my previous post, anyway, I don't understand the 'grounding' mentality, especially at such a young age.

I'm sorry your son had to deal with this. My dd had to deal with something similar - a friend whose mother decided to stay at another event rather than do the drive to her party. It spoiled her party for her, and is something she still talks about. For some kids, a rec center and swimming pool is not the point, and they take these things hard. If your friend knows your son's personality, it was more than inconsiderate to do this. IF she really wants to impose OTT punishments, and believes that they would be effective, she could still have chosen something that did not upset your ds, imo.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 

I think stopping him from going to his friend's birthday party was an extremely harsh punishment. To call it a "consequence" doesn't change anything. The parents understood that this birthday party was a thing that they could really hurt him by taking from him.

I completely agree


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
ITA.

One thing I cannot abide is dressing up a punishment as a 'consequence' to make it sound OK. Ugh.

I personally think that not allowing a child to go to such a big thing as a birthday party is way, way over the top, especially for a 6 yo. It makes me wonder how tough your punishments have to get if you come out guns blazing at this age.

I'm also surprised to see how many people say that they'd do the same. I am starting to feel more and more alone as a parent who does not punish my children. Gosh, even my friends who do punish have never gone as far as stopping their kids going to a birthday party at that age. It makes my head spin.









There are a zillion other ways to teach a child not to disappear on you, without doing something like this.









:

I had to double check which board I was on for a second there


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *macca* 







:

I had to double check which board I was on for a second there

omg seriously? Yes there are a zillion ways to deal with anything. Denying a birthday party for leaving home and refusing to come back, twice, is not the end of the world, and it is not necessarily un-GD. Let's not do the 'omgz is this babycentre????' coz really.

GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.

Without weighing in on the original discussion, because I truly see both sides, I have to completely agree with this. I see *a lot* of equating GD with CL on this forum. I know there is overlap, but they are not the same.

I'm GD, not CL. I've liked learning about CL on this board and I've discovered that, actually, a lot of what we do could be considered CL. However, philosophically, I'm not CL. I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I don't subscribe to CL but I also don't do parent imposed consequences anymore...there is no box for me either.

eta...I don't CALL it CL..but maybe that's what I am doing. I don't like labels much. Just clarifying.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 

I'm GD, not CL. I've liked learning about CL on this board and I've discovered that, actually, a lot of what we do could be considered CL. However, philosophically, I'm not CL.

Same here.

Quote:

I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.
ITA.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
Actually I change my mind. I think it IS a VERY natural consequence....mom not feeling like taking a child out that is hard to catch to bring home.

Absolutely.
I would have warned you though (I think), so that you could prepare your son. It must have been a shock to him to see his friends and expect his friend, but then his friend isn't 'there'


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
Without weighing in on the original discussion, because I truly see both sides, I have to completely agree with this. I see *a lot* of equating GD with CL on this forum. I know there is overlap, but they are not the same.

I'm GD, not CL. I've liked learning about CL on this board and I've discovered that, actually, a lot of what we do could be considered CL. However, philosophically, I'm not CL. I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.


















exactly


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm fascinated that the suggestion that a cab be called is so attractive to people as a thing to get ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ABOUT. Hey, it was one idea.

Yes...a LUDICROUS idea

Evidently I am not the only one who thinks so.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.

Yeah, I'm not CL either. I'm just me, drawing from lots of ideas in my relationships with my kids and my partner.

Let's see, no punishment parents have been called wishy washy, permissive and espousing ludicrous ideas.

A parent whose child was hurt by someone else's punishment posted for support and ideas. The pro-punishment folks posted lots and lots of posts about how reasonable it is and how life is full of disappointments and it doesn't matter if the punishment hurts innocent bystanders.

FTR: I didn't say a family whose toddler is going through car seat refusal is broken. I described the entire hypothetical as presented complete with no resources and said I had no ideas how to help.

I have a 7 year old with sensory issues and a very opinionated 3 year old. I didn't bash anyone. I've lived through lots of car seat problems with the younger one on hot days while the older one was having trouble. It's no picnic. I have lots of ideas to share in *real* situations that have and have not worked for me.

My point is that if someone is interested in painting a picture of a family with no resources and a 6 year old that runs away from his parents and a completely made up toddler who won't get in the car and a fear of cabs I don't have any ideas how to help.

I'm bowing out because I don't get the impression that my words are serving to help anyone, just fun to play with. I understand that the value my family places on commitment, joy and kindness are not universally shared. Other families prioritize different things and work through their conflicts differently.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm bowing out because I don't get the impression that my words are serving to help anyone, just fun to play with. I understand that the value my family places on commitment, joy and kindness are not universally shared. Other families prioritize different things and work through their conflicts differently.

That is pretty condescending, and a really underhanded way to deliver an insult IMO. Just because people don't all do things your way doesn't mean they do not value commitment, joy, and kindness.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

That was part of my point. In THIS particular situation, my son placed a lot of value on his bf being there. More value than I think his parents realized. That combined with the questionable value of keeping him home from the party as a punishment, would lead me say that the parents should have considered the full impact of what they were doing. Not only on their son, but mine too. Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".

I've got an introvert without a lot of friends too. And, I get that it would be a big deal.

That said, I also think kids need to get to the point where they realize that even on their birthday they aren't the only person in the universe with needs. From the child's perspective he's sad his friend isn't there. That scenario would be just the same if the friend had the flu and sometimes people get sick and there is no one to blame. Part of life is that there will be disappointments and it is okay for kids to have some and to learn to deal. I agree it is sad for him and his feelings deserve to be acknowledged, but the reality is that we need to learn to do the best we can with situations and look for ways to still have fun. That would be my message to the kid. And, I should note I also post this as a parent of a child with medical difficulties - he does get sick sometimes and he does sometimes miss going to parties he wants to attend. That's sad enough for him without adding the burden that he's got to feel guilty for disappointing a friend. I appreciate the ways in which friends and their parents have been understanding of that.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Yeah, I'm not CL either. I'm just me, drawing from lots of ideas in my relationships with my kids and my partner.

Let's see, no punishment parents have been called wishy washy, permissive and espousing ludicrous ideas.

<snip>

I'm bowing out because I don't get the impression that my words are serving to help anyone, just fun to play with. *I understand that the value my family places on commitment, joy and kindness are not universally shared. Other families prioritize different things and work through their conflicts differently.*

well if you are referring to me, we are a no punishment family as well

and I said that sending a 6 yo alone with a random cabbie is ludicrous, not any parenting strategies

I am sure you are the only person on this thread that values these things


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
That is pretty condescending, and a really underhanded way to deliver an insult IMO. Just because people don't all do things your way doesn't mean they do not value commitment, joy, and kindness.









That's not what I said. Other people can value those things and have different priorities or other values that lead them to other decisions. I truly and genuinely do not understand what is being fun about taking my words and making them say other things than what I said.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
well if you are referring to me, we are a no punishment family as well

and I said that sending a 6 yo alone with a random cabbie is ludicrous, not any parenting strategies

I am sure you are the only person on this thread that values these things









Which it was explained, by both myself *and* another poster was in response to a hypothetical and which I said was just one idea, which you needed to respond to with an insult.

I believe you that where you live it would be dangerous to send your child somewhere in a cab. It is not true where I live, nor is it true for my many many relatives who live in NYC. If it would be dangerous for your 6 year old (which if I'm reading your signature right would also be a hypothetical 6 year old) then it would not be an option that worked for you.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Do some of you all really think it is somehow damaging and horrible to deny a child a birthday party as a consequence for taking off to the neighbours and refusing to come home, running away from your parents when they come for you, instigating an hour long drama... TWICE in a week? Does it really matter so much if the consequence is 'natural' or 'logical' or simply the parent saying: No way, dude, you don't pull that crap without fallout?

This is where 'GD' kinda gets off track for me. IMO there is NOTHING wrong with a parent refusing a b-day party after that, and it does not have to be simply about keeping a child safe in the moment... which some folks here seem to think makes it invalid or not gentle or somehow crushing to the child's delicate psyche.

I mean, back in the day there was a lot of parental punishment that was disrespectful, mean, and really out of line. But we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here! Our children are not delicate flowers who can't handle a bit of actual parenting. I think some of us advocate going so far the other way, questioning always ourselves and not the kids (a la 'omg why would you chase him??'), and the kids just do whatever they please while we sit around psychoanalyzing and taking such pains to not damage the little sweeties that we render ourselves inert. Yk???


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I've got an introvert without a lot of friends too. And, I get that it would be a big deal.

That said, I also think kids need to get to the point where they realize that even on their birthday they aren't the only person in the universe with needs.

And I will say to my son's credit (more so than mine














that he coped AMAZINGLY well. He cried a little bit, he got over it and had fun. I'm the one who's still stewing about it!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
And, I should note I also post this as a parent of a child with medical difficulties - he does get sick sometimes and he does sometimes miss going to parties he wants to attend. That's sad enough for him without adding the burden that he's got to feel guilty for disappointing a friend. I appreciate the ways in which friends and their parents have been understanding of that.

But that's _very very_ different. That's a health concern. We would be disappointed, but understanding if a child was sick. There was no illness involved here. It was a parent-imposed consequence that ticked me off. I've moved on (not quite as fast as our son did, but I've come to terms with it.) Ds did learn a valuable lesson in having a good time. He handled the whole thing maturely.

I just wish his friend's parents had had the courtesy to warn us ahead of time, at minimum, and maybe rethought the punishment.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
One child showed up at her party. I was so







and upset for her. And I was so mad at the parents.

BUT she had a great time. She partied and had fun and played with us. We went out of our way to make sure she had as much fun as she could have with only one other child at the party.

I held that resentment for a long time and still am somewhat ticked at those parents. But my daughter is now nearly 14 and she doesn't even remember it. Kids are so resilient.

Thanks! That does help. I swear I worry more about his social life than I do mine. It just hurts so much to see him hurt. And to know that this hurt was "optional". I'm probably a little sensitive too because we'd had to cancel TWO playdates with his best friend because we were sick.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think at the VERY least, the mother should have warned you. A no-show to a party is a no-show to a party at any age, and the host should be notified ASAP.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

But that's _very very_ different. That's a health concern. We would be disappointed, but understanding if a child was sick. There was no illness involved here. It was a parent-imposed consequence that ticked me off. I've moved on (not quite as fast as our son did, but I've come to terms with it.) Ds did learn a valuable lesson in having a good time. He handled the whole thing maturely.


I think having it be a big deal in a way that a sick kid wouldn't be is 100% a choice you are making. If your biggest concern is that your son's friend isn't there that's the same whether the friend is sick or being punished. The bottom line is the same - not every thing goes the way you always want it to and sometimes you have to learn to roll with it.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.


Yes!!!
I think a lot of people get scared off that way.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?

can you explain what you mean, your point of view?

maybe it's semantics - i don't see an outside world full of punishment.

peace


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
If your biggest concern is that your son's friend isn't there that's the same whether the friend is sick or being punished.

It wouldn't be to me. They used the birthday party as a tool to punish their son.

It happened to me once that I arranged something nice for the kids and invited another child, but then that child's mother called me just before the event to say that her child had been so difficult all day that she had decided to punish him, a four-year-old, by not letting him join us for our planned event.

I felt very bad about it because something special I had planned for the kids was being used as a punishment. I felt like my efforts to give them a nice experience had been turned into a tool to hurt and humiliate this child, in a way I would never have done. I don't do punishments so I don't want to be used like that.









Even if it wasn't my wish that the "misbehaving" child should stay at home, it is very possible that he would feel shame the next time he saw me, and think about the time he wasn't allowed to join our event because he had been "bad". And maybe wonder if I didn't want him there.









There is no logic and no predictability in that sort of treatment of children. The child in this position has to make sure he doesn't disobey, or else whatever the parents know that he loves or looks forward to, can be taken from him as revenge. His possessions aren't his to keep, things he has been promised can be snatched away at any time. It is a completely unpredictable situation for a child.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?

For my children I hope to instill in them a sense of right and wrong. That they will do the right thing because it is the right thing not because they fear the "punishment" because that doesn't prevent them from doing the wrong thing when there is no one watching or when they don't get caught.

I look to the future and how I want them to be as adults and let's face it..adults don't get sent to arbitrary corners to "think about what they did" for all sorts of little infractions and adults don't get smacked for "misbehavior".

Also, when using a tool of discipline I like it to be something that is far-reaching and will be effective in the future. I may be able to send a 3 year old into time out for doing something but at 13 she's not going if she chooses not to and it's setting myself up for failure to think I can make her do something at that age or older without a lot of noise.

The most frustrating thing for me is watching children being held to standards of perfection that adults aren't held to. If you speak out against something you don't get sent to your room. If you voice your opinion, you don't get spanked. If you make a mistake you don't get shamed and embarrassed by anyone...or if you do you will get a lot of support on how wrong it was to have been treated that way.

To answer your question directly I think children who are raised without punishment but with gentle guidance, teaching and respect actually function better in the world because they don't have to look to anyone else for their compass..it will come naturally from within because they have been trusted and respected and thus have trust and respect for their own judgement.

That's what I'm seeing anyway.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
There is no logic and no predictability in that sort of treatment of children. The child in this position has to make sure he doesn't disobey, or else whatever the parents know that he loves or looks forward to, can be taken from him as revenge. His possessions aren't his to keep, things he has been promised can be snatched away at any time. It is a completely unpredictable situation for a child.


I understand that this is the prevailing pov on punishment here on the GD board. And I've read many, many books, and I understand that Kohn and others share this pov.

I don't believe, however, that a child raised in a GD home that incorporates punishment some of the time necessarily shares this pov.

We've used punishment (time out, and, yes, sometimes cancelling something fun) at times. Those punishments are reserved for when things are really breaking down and a specific behavior needs to _stop_, _immediately_, to keep everyone safe, and, for whatever reason, more relationship-style parenting is failing us at the moment. And ime it can work very well.

I would be concerned if this were the backbone of our parenting and our relationship with our dc. But it isn't. Our relationship is based on love and trust and simply enjoying each other







. I find that we enjoy each other best when neither of us is raging violently, however, and punishment helped us teach dd to stop raging (by requiring her to find other ways to express her feelings--ways that don't feel as immediately rewarding, but are far more rewarding in the long run).

I'd cut the parent in question here a lot of slack. It sounds like they had a very intense experience (not being about to find the child), and they were scared. They probably felt like they needed to do something to make sure that it never happened again--to make sure that their child stayed safe--and they probably didn't know what to do. Kids don't come with instruction manuals, after all. It sounds like they did the best thing they knew to do, and I'm sure they weren't happy about it.

To the op--yeah, it bites that the boy's punishment had a negative impact on your ds's party. And she definitely should have given you some notice. Maybe she didn't call because she was conflicted about her decision?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
For my children I hope to instill in them a sense of right and wrong. That they will do the right thing because it is the right thing not because they fear the "punishment" because that doesn't prevent them from doing the wrong thing when there is no one watching or when they don't get caught.

I look to the future and how I want them to be as adults and let's face it..adults don't get sent to arbitrary corners to "think about what they did" for all sorts of little infractions and adults don't get smacked for "misbehavior".

Also, when using a tool of discipline I like it to be something that is far-reaching and will be effective in the future. I may be able to send a 3 year old into time out for doing something but at 13 she's not going if she chooses not to and it's setting myself up for failure to think I can make her do something at that age or older without a lot of noise.

The most frustrating thing for me is watching children being held to standards of perfection that adults aren't held to. If you speak out against something you don't get sent to your room. If you voice your opinion, you don't get spanked. If you make a mistake you don't get shamed and embarrassed by anyone...or if you do you will get a lot of support on how wrong it was to have been treated that way.

To answer your question directly I think children who are raised without punishment but with gentle guidance, teaching and respect actually function better in the world because they don't have to look to anyone else for their compass..it will come naturally from within because they have been trusted and respected and thus have trust and respect for their own judgement.









:

I am also someone who does not experience or perceive the world as being full of punishments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
If what you mean is that all of our actions have consequences, and that by the time one reaches adulthood one needs to be able to accept responsibility for one's own actions (and the consequences thereof) and to be able and willing to make amends when having (purposefully or not) caused harm/suffering/damage: I think punishment simply isn't necessary to teach this. Further, I don't think punishments do a good job of teaching kids to take responsibility for their actions, or to make amends, or to recognize the significance of human suffering, or to empathize or take the perspective of another person. I think punishment often results in the opposite effect: a child learning not to get caught, learning that sometimes it's worth the punishment to engage in a behavior, that punishment wipes the slate clean even without making amends to those we've hurt. And I think punishment emphasizes focusing on the self, focusing primarily on what will happen _to me_ if I act in this way, rather than promoting thinking carefully about how my actions will affect those around me.

I like and agree with the following:

Quote:

"And, very important, punishment-any punishment-devalues human suffering, simply because it is the intentional infliction of suffering. Parents are those individuals in a child's world who are supposed to represent the side of good. When they intentionally inflict suffering, the implicit message to the child is that suffering must be a legitimate means to an end. Punishment as a part of child-rearing practice teaches the child that human suffering is not an _absolute_ harm." (Anthony Wolf, _The Secret of Parenting_)


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
omg seriously? Yes there are a zillion ways to deal with anything. Denying a birthday party for leaving home and refusing to come back, twice, is not the end of the world, and it is not necessarily un-GD. Let's not do the 'omgz is this babycentre????' coz really.

GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with parent-imposed consequences, but to me, missing a birthday party is an _extreme_ consequence. As a child, I think I'd have preferred a spanking


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 







:

I am also someone who does not experience or perceive the world as being full of punishments.

If what you mean is that all of our actions have consequences, and that by the time one reaches adulthood one needs to be able to accept responsibility for one's own actions (and the consequences thereof) and to be able and willing to make amends when having (purposefully or not) caused harm/suffering/damage: I think punishment simply isn't necessary to teach this. Further, *I don't think punishments do a good job of teaching kids to take responsibility for their actions, or to make amends, or to recognize the significance of human suffering, or to empathize or take the perspective of another person. I think punishment often results in the opposite effect: a child learning not to get caught, learning that sometimes it's worth the punishment to engage in a behavior, that punishment wipes the slate clean even without making amends to those we've hurt*. And I think punishment emphasizes focusing on the self, focusing primarily on what will happen _to me_ if I act in this way, rather than promoting thinking carefully about how my actions will affect those around me.


ITA with this.
It is what makes me KNOW that this will work. We have done a pretty good job of practicing GD, and I think a lot of what we do is CL. I have seen my son learn through this type of parenting. I have seen that I don't have to punish in order to get a point across to him.

But above all else, he has EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, which is so important. many children, boys esp, never learn how to identify their emotions or express themselves in an effective way.
We very occasionally will do a parent imposed consequence, but avoid it like the plague. The consequences don't get to the root of the problem.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
...and I think a lot of what we do is CL. .

at the risk of sounding ignorant, what is CL? could someone please enlighten me? tia

peace


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Consensual Living...I don;t have time to link...but there are lots of great web sites that explain it









I am sure someone will post some links


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 

I felt very bad about it because something special I had planned for the kids was being used as a punishment. I felt like my efforts to give them a nice experience had been turned into a tool to hurt and humiliate this child, in a way I would never have done. I don't do punishments so I don't want to be used like that.









That strikes me as a very narcissistic way to view the situation. It isn't really about you. The original poster's feeling was that it "crushed her kid". My point was that unless the parent chooses to make it a big deal, the objective reality for a young child is that their friend isn't there. Whether the kid is sick or punished really makes no difference unless parents choose to layer on another level of meaning. I can't imagine anyone here would be holding a grudge if the friend's kid got sick and I see no reason to treat this any differently. As I the poster acknowledged her son handled it maturely and bounced back and she was the one who struggled more. I'd see this as a good example of how we maybe should a hint from our kids.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
Even if it wasn't my wish that the "misbehaving" child should stay at home, it is very possible that he would feel shame the next time he saw me, and think about the time he wasn't allowed to join our event because he had been "bad". And maybe wonder if I didn't want him there.









I think this is really far fetched. It sounds like you are looking for a reason to make it about you and to be upset. And, I post this as a parent who doesn't believe in punishment and doesn't use it.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

My two cents on the issue because we just dealt with ds (almost 4) running away from me at the park, TOWARD the very busy street...I had no help and had to lug my 13month old as I ran and panted and heaved and...you get the picture...

To me, not taking a child to a pre-planned event can make sense as a natural consequence depending on the situation. I told ds today that we aren't going to the park for a good long while because he runs away and that is NOT safe and it puts me in a really bad spot.

I'll be honest and say that at this point in my gd journey there are times we punish (taking away privileges like going to eat, going to a friend's house, etc) because we are so spent that we don't have the energy to do xyz. If I've just exhausted myself in dealing with a runner/ whatever, I may not be in the mood to go out and have fun and all la dee da. Sorry bub.

Huh, I just told all this to dh and he totally disagrees with me! He's usually the stricter of the two. He agreed with pps that it wasn't fair to the birthday boy and we would let our son go and figure out another way to deal with the problem...I may have to think about this more.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Just tossing in my 2 cents -

The thing that's wrong with it, IMO, is the hurt it inflicted on an innocent bystander. She chose to create a situation where another child was going to be hurt, so that makes it a bad punishment, whatever your views are on the value of punishment itself. I don't see why another child should have to be disappointed on their birthday, to teach her son a lesson. It's just not very compassionate to the other child.

Other than that, if your kid runs off a few times and won't come back, it seems reasonable to me to not let the kid out of the house for a while. Lock the doors and try to figure out why the kid is running away!

ETA - The end result for the birthday child is the same, yes - his friend isn't there. But we, as adults who are supposed to know better, should not *manufacture* situations like this. Illness can't be helped. The mom had choices in how to handle her DC's running away.

And Rabbitmum, I think I understand what you are saying, and it didn't sound particularly narcissistic to me. I'd feel pretty bad about it too.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.

The only thought I have left after 9 pages is that this problem behavior had gone on less than a week. That isn't much time to try anything closer to home in terms of problem solving. The parents put all their cards on the table in one swoop. There isn't much left to do once you get to the point of not letting a 6 be the guest of honor at his best friends party. For everyone's sake I certainly hope this worked, because I don't know what these parents are going to do next if he repeats the original behavior. They haven't given themselves much of an "out" if this doesn't work, kwim?

Rabbitsmum I understood your meaning too. As a child I would have felt exactly as you described--totally humiliated and afraid to face you again. Not all kids will react that way but some really do, and it would be a terrible feeling to know you were unwittingly implicated in a situation that led to that feeling.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
And Rabbitmum, I think I understand what you are saying, and it didn't sound particularly narcissistic to me. I'd feel pretty bad about it too.

Me, too.

As a child I was punished in a similar manner, and whenever I saw the lady next door (who's house I was not allowed to go to as punishment that day) I felt terrible shame, assuming that my parents had told her how rotten I was and that she must agree. It never would have occurred to me that she might have felt compassion for me because it never could have occurred to me at that age that my parents were ever wrong.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.

I agree, they kept him home to teach him a lesson, not necessarily for his own immediate safety. If it had been a trip to the park or something, I think that would have been justified, but that's just me. It's a trust thing, yk?
They may not have thought he would leave the *party*, per se, but they have to know he will be within the parameters they have set for him, and if he demonstrated *just that day* that he couldn't be trusted to do that, I think it's reasonable to cancel outside activities and stick to the house until the issue is resolved.

EXCEPT, cancelling his attendance was thoughtless of the birthday child, and therefore inappropriate. I have to add that disclaimer, in case someone didn't read my previous post.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

On another note, parents whose children run away from them. Well, DH and I call to our children before they get too far away that "we are going this way and we hope they come with us" (we've explained to our children that we will never ever leave them, but sometimes we need to go a different way and it would be really sucky if they went another way); most of the time this works. I almost never run after my children (unless they are in danger); I definately would not have chased my child for 30 minutes (I probably would have said, "Well, I'm going home now and going to bed. . .I'll probably lock the door so I hope you come too so you don't have to sleep outside).
I have the kid who would say "Ok, bye" if I told him I was going in a different direction. And unless you're prepared to follow through on things like that (leaving, locking kids out) I would recommend not telling them that you're going to do so. Unless you're clearly joking when you say it, it's a good way to get them to not take you seriously.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I like and agree with the following:

Quote:

"And, very important, punishment-any punishment-devalues human suffering, simply because it is the intentional infliction of suffering. Parents are those individuals in a child's world who are supposed to represent the side of good. When they intentionally inflict suffering, the implicit message to the child is that suffering must be a legitimate means to an end. Punishment as a part of child-rearing practice teaches the child that human suffering is not an absolute harm." (Anthony Wolf, The Secret of Parenting)


I completely agree, this is exactly the point. There is enough suffering in the world already, we shouldn't add to it on purpose. There is a lot of suffering we as parents can't save our children from - there will always be losses, sickness, pain, embarrassments - it's certainly not our job to add to them.

If you have (and teach your children) the attitude that it doesn't matter that you inflict a little suffering here and there when you feel that it is "right", you don't know what the consequences or extent will be of that suffering. Maybe that person that you or your child "punish" for something, is a person already hurt and lying down, and the extra suffering that you add hurts much more than you intended. This can be the case for your own children too. You don't really know how much your punishment will hurt or how betrayed they will feel, unless you have a complete insight in their feelings and motivations at the time, which you don't.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Ok, I guess I have changed my mind. I origionally thought it was done out of safety-don't know why...

I guess I would agree that taking away something like that out of the context of safety doesn't really make sense to me. I just have children who sometimes can't calm themselves or stop themselves yet, so I tended to think of it in light of that.


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## RosesArePurple (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
I think at the VERY least, the mother should have warned you. A no-show to a party is a no-show to a party at any age, and the host should be notified ASAP.









:

The child who was punished by not being allowed to go to the party was taught by his parents that it's ok to go back on your word for arbitrary reasons.

I don't agree with this punishment at all. If you want to help foster personal responsibility, why would you skip something you previously agreed to go to?

I understand sometimes people get sick or whatever, but going to the birthday party was a commitment. I realize that some adults don't put much stock in kid's parties, but sheesh, a commitment is a commitment.

I would have allowed my child to go. Simply because we had agreed to go and it wouldn't be fair to the host to back off.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

OP,
I am sorry your son was disappointed and it would have been better if your friend gave you advanced warning but I agree with Roar. I think the way you present it to your child and the way you deal with it are what is important in this situation.
As far as I am concerned the reason a child does not come to the party is out of your hands, whether it is sickness, punishment, running away, not wanting to get in the carseat ect.. If it was my child I would focus on the fact that I was sorry her friend wasn't there but we can have a great time anyway. Which is what it sounds like your son did.
I also think it is pretty nice your friend showed up to help even though her son could not come.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Quote:

I get that they were really upset with their son (age 6) -- he had gone over to a neighbor's house without permission and didn't come back when asked to. Instead, he ran the other direction when the parents came to find him. It took them nearly an hour to find him/bring him home. He did this twice in one week. Once, Wed and then again on Friday.
Also wanted to point out that this sounds terrifying and none of us know what is going on in this family or what and how exactly the parents are dealing with it. My daughter would never do something remotely like this but if she did I would be frightened to take her anywhere.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Haven't read the whole thread but we had a similar thing happen. Ds's best friend, who's mom is my life-long best friend didn't get to come to his party this year because he'd done a number of things that week to lose the party. His mom called me and let me know the day of the party. I was not offended, nor was I upset. I'd have done the same thing. Ds was a little bummed but understood...probably because to us, this was a very logical consequence. Spend your week being mean and disrespectful to everyone around you and there's not much chance you'll get to go to a party.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. *I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.*

The only thought I have left after 9 pages is that this problem behavior had gone on less than a week. That isn't much time to try anything closer to home in terms of problem solving. *The parents put all their cards on the table in one swoop.* There isn't much left to do once you get to the point of not letting a 6 be the guest of honor at his best friends party. For everyone's sake I certainly hope this worked, because I don't know what these parents are going to do next if he repeats the original behavior. *They haven't given themselves much of an "out" if this doesn't work, kwim?*
.

EXACTLY! Thank you for articulating what was really bothering me about what they did. They went from zero to 60 without any thought as to what would come next. My son's disappointment was only one of the consequences. What the heck are they going to do the next time?

I've got nothing else to say, so I'm going to bow out now. I've calmed down. Our son handled the disappointment masterfully (better than I did). We've all learned a lesson. I understand that ds' friend's parents were terrified and probably not doing their "best" parenting as a result.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
EXACTLY! Thank you for articulating what was really bothering me about what they did. They went from zero to 60 without any thought as to what would come next. My son's disappointment was only one of the consequences. What the heck are they going to do the next time?

I've got nothing else to say, so I'm going to bow out now. I've calmed down. Our son handled the disappointment masterfully (better than I did). We've all learned a lesson. I understand that ds' friend's parents were terrified and probably not doing their "best" parenting as a result.

Thanks for being willing to allow me to ask questions in this thread--I appreciate the clarifications and the discussion that has happened in this thread. I'm sorry for the frustration and disappointment that you (and your son) experienced.


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## Autumn Breeze (Nov 13, 2003)

Allow me to preface this with saying that my 6 year old son, has a history of going outside to play, with out our knowledge. He decided to take a little adventure about 3 months after we moved here. He went next door and climbed on to the neighbors front porch. They walked him home. Then when I was pregnant with my daughter, he was 3.5, he took not one but two 'walks' around our street, and had to be brought home. Not because anything was going wrong. It was 7 am! My husband and I were sleeping, with the door to our bedroom open. we live in a small house, yet we didn't hear him leaving. Then, before school started this year, at the age of 5.5 he went out of the house before 7 am, and was playing at the end of our street with a neighbors dog. The end result of that was the police being called to our house.

Now, the first time, we were upset, and told him so. Told him it was unsafe to do that, and that it wouldn't be a good thing to repeat. (of course, we were talking to a 2.5 yr old, so keep that in mind we were trying to reason with him, and explain it in his terms, each time.) The 2nd and 3rd times, we were visibly shaken, and upset. When I was pregnant it made me cry. Again, we talked to him about it. Then we bought a 'top lock' for the door. We already had a pin in place of the sliding glass. When he was 5.5 and the police came, he was FINALLY able to understand that there are some REAL BIG consequences to running off like that. No matter what we said, he thought it was fun to go outside int he morning. His consequence was that we didn't go outside to play for a few days each time (after the talking to).

having said that....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
They did royally screw up by not informing us ahead of time. And I like the idea of him calling my ds to tell him why.

I agree, it was wrong of them not to tell you when they new a head of time that they would not be bringing him.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
I don't think a punishment is called for in this situation at all. The consequence of what happened was that the parents got upset, and they should of course tell him that.

Really? Have any of your children ever left the house with out your knowledge or permission? Have you ever walked out of your bedroom and found your 5 yr old missing? Do you know how extremely frightening that is? How do you convey the seriousness of the issue to a child that is too young to understand? I sure couldn't do it! We didn't spank him, we didn't lock him in his room, we did raise our voices, but we weren't shouting at him. I don't see how you could NOT give some kind of punishment or consequence to this very serious action.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think you're adding details that aren't necessarily true. The first time maybe he didn't know any better, but then there is the refusing to come home for an hour. And by the second time, kid knew better. Was he punished the first time? Doesn't sound like it to me.

ITA that if a kindergarten age kid showed up at my house I would make sure the parents knew where s/he was.

I totally agree, he 'should have' 'known better' by the second offense.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. .

Yeah, ouch to say the least. My family is/was not broken when this happened in our house.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *macca* 
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with parent-imposed consequences, but to me, missing a birthday party is an _extreme_ consequence. As a child, I think I'd have preferred a spanking









Well, I think we all agree that a spanking wouldn't solve anything. But I don't think it's extreme at all. Nope. I think they should have called to let the parents/boy know that their son would not be attending. And i think it was very nice that the boys mom came to help set up. I would have with out a doubt, not allowed my son to attend a birthday party that was to happen less than a week after a thing like that.

I have a feeling i will regret this, as soon as I post it, but I felt like I really needed to respond to a lot of these posts, not just the ones quoted, because I can see that a lot of you have never had a child take off from your house. Until it has happened to you, I don't think you should pass judgment on a parent's idea of a consequence/punishment upon this action. there is really very little you can think of when they do this. It's so shocking, and really really shakes you. No amount of talking did anything for us. It litterally took the cops being called, and the office (Sheriff) wanting to talk to my son, and he was crying the entire time he was talking to the sheriff. I had been in tears when we saw him talking to the neighbor from his cruiser, and I was beyond terrified that CPS would be our next visitor, and they would be leaving with one or both of my children.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

(((AutumnBreeze))) I hope you don't regret the post at all. Of course you were shake by those experiences. I can see how you would want to respond here.

I think for myself the crux of the whole issue is that when a small child does something "for fun" which they are too young to comprehend is extremely dangerous (dashing out into a road, leaving the house, chasing a strange dog, climbing onto the roof, what-have-you), it is easy to say that almost consequence can be justified because whatever the parent does won't be as traumatic as getting hit by a car or kidnapped.

For myself I do see abstract punishments as a slippery slope, and one that really has no bottom when we are talking about matching up a punishment with a small child's dangerous behavior. What is a suitably matched punishment for a child who runs in the road? If we take away his favorite toys, or take away a much anticipated event, is that really "enough"?

I don't think I can tell someone else "this is too much" "that isn't enough" when we are talking about that primal fear of a child being lost. It just isn't helpful, because the fear is too overwhelming, and the frustration is very real.

I do think we can talk about preventing small children from getting into these situations when we know they are a possibility. We can talk about pro active solutions to get across to a child that their behavior is dangerous. I really don't have a problem with infrequently applied parent created logical consequences. On the other hand, especially with small children, I don't think we can talk about these situations *without* examining the situation beyond "Dangerous behavior justifies xyz response from the parent".

But I think your post is about that primal frustration when you are dealing with the emotions, yes? That has to be recognized and talked about too. I just think we have to be careful to realize that almost any punishment is justified from that place. I know, in the moment, I would probably threaten anything to ds if I thought it would keep him safe. Hopefully other parents would talk to me and help me formulate a more rational, productive response.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Autumn Breeze, I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post to be about you. It was not. It was about a *hypothetical* family with a 6 year old and a toddler who would not get in a car seat, a committment to attend a party and no resources to call upon to get the 6 year old there.

These sorts of hypotheticals are fairly routinely present here to show that it is not possible to be a responsible family concerned about others without forcing toddler into carseats. Or if it is possible, then it's not possible if there are siblings. Or if it is possible, it's not possible if there are siblings and no helpful, trustworthy neighbors. Or if that's possible, then it's not possible for whatever idea is generated.

Your family had a running 6 year old, but no other piece of the hypothetical. I'm sorry you mistook my response to other people posts as being about your family.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Me, too.

As a child I was punished in a similar manner, and whenever I saw the lady next door (who's house I was not allowed to go to as punishment that day) I felt terrible shame, assuming that my parents had told her how rotten I was and that she must agree. It never would have occurred to me that she might have felt compassion for me because it never could have occurred to me at that age that my parents were ever wrong.

I think this has probably very little to do with the punishment and more to do with general themes of shame or insecurity. The reality is that there are kids who feel ashamed who were never punished - it is just more to the core of the way they are. Again, I don't punish and don't believe in it. I believe though it is possible overstate the tragedy of a one time punishment like this. As many posters here have acknowledged certainly the parents were scared by the child's behavior and that explains their reaction. To respond to this like the parents had thrown the child down a flight of stairs is inappropriate. Futher


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## a(TM)?Star (Oct 13, 2005)

This has probably been mentioned thus far, but I haven't read all of the posts yet..........my 2 cents.

A+B isn't adding up to C, being the punishment.

If he ran away, and didn't come back when told to, he shouldn't have been allowed to go there the next time he wanted to, if you personally think that a punishment is necessary. Him not being able to go to the party is wrong. And, the mom going is like a slap in his face. He should have been allowed to go, he's not a dog, he didn't need his face rubbed in it.

BTW, if she wan't bringing him, she should have called. IMO, she's missing the boat on a few things to begin with. Sorry if this is harsh, and contradictory of most of the posts here, but that's my opinion.


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## macca (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I think this has probably very little to do with the punishment and more to do with general themes of shame or insecurity. The reality is that there are kids who feel ashamed who were never punished - it is just more to the core of the way they are. Again, I don't punish and don't believe in it. I believe though it is possible overstate the tragedy of a one time punishment like this. As many posters here have acknowledged certainly the parents were scared by the child's behavior and that explains their reaction. To respond to this like the parents had thrown the child down a flight of stairs is inappropriate.

I don't see any responses like that. I think the punishment was harsh and OTT, but I think the kid will live to fight another day


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Calla~* 
And, the mom going is like a slap in his face. He should have been allowed to go, he's not a dog, he didn't need his face rubbed in it.

I don't think this was the motivation. I think the mother felt bad about not honoring her own committment to the OP to help out at the party, and didn't think the OP should be punished for her DS's actions.

It's interesting to me that she saw how this would be inconsiderate, but she didn't seem to understand how it might be inconsiderate to the OP's DS. It illustrates the fact that it's easier for most people to see things from the adult perspective than the kid's.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
My point was that unless the parent chooses to make it a big deal, the objective reality for a young child is that their friend isn't there. Whether the kid is sick or punished really makes no difference unless parents choose to layer on another level of meaning. I can't imagine anyone here would be holding a grudge if the friend's kid got sick and I see no reason to treat this any differently. As I the poster acknowledged her son handled it maturely and bounced back and she was the one who struggled more. I'd see this as a good example of how we maybe should a hint from our kids.

I agree with this.

I don't know whether I agree or disagree with the mum who withheld the party. But I do know that one of the things I do NOT like about birthday parties in general is the... fraughtness? of the whole thing that we create for our kids. Who's invited, who shows up, who doesn't, whether the gifts are good or not, whether the loot bags are okay or not... it starts to give me a headache.

I want my son to learn really is that it's great to INVITE people to share in celebration and joy, but it's also great to see a relationship with a person as being beyond whether they show up for two hours on a particular day. We celebrate long and loud here, but I hate all the crazed social mores stuff.

So... I guess for me it's not about whether it was okay or not for this other mum to do what she did. It's about whether you are going to hold her hostage over the disappointment. EVEN IF she is making a big mistake as a parent, is it the friendship that's important, or the party?


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
If he'd run away at another outing, I could kind of "get" the punishment. But, he ran away FROM HOME without telling them. To ME the logical consequence of that is that he is not allowed out of the house without mom and/or dad. You install locks/alarms on every door and he's not allowed out without mom and dad being 2 feet behind him.

I guess I just don't "get" grounding a kid period. I get time-outs. I get losing other privileges. But what does grounding teach?

This totally.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Needle in the Hay* 
Thoughtless, thoughtless people!
That was disrespectful to you and especially to your DS. People get wacky ideas sometimes. I remember my cousin getting into trouble and then the punishment would be that he couldn't go to the basketball game with his dad (yeah, take away the one-on-one dad time!!) or he couldn't go to his Cub Scouts meeting or karate class!

You do not say that your child is coming to a party and then not bring him unless there has been some kind of emergency. You find some other punishment if you really believe your child needs one.

i totally agree - her punishment was very unfair to your child


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnBreeze* 
Really? Have any of your children ever left the house with out your knowledge or permission? Have you ever walked out of your bedroom and found your 5 yr old missing? Do you know how extremely frightening that is? How do you convey the seriousness of the issue to a child that is too young to understand? I sure couldn't do it! We didn't spank him, we didn't lock him in his room, we did raise our voices, but we weren't shouting at him. I don't see how you could NOT give some kind of punishment or consequence to this very serious action.

Yes, they have, several times. I don't really think it's that unusual. As you say, they don't really know how much they can frighten us. One of my sons even ran off from kindergarten when he was three or four, he climbed the fence and went to a friend's house.

I can remember myself and my sisters doing it, too, we didn't have any understanding why it was so important to our parents to know where we were all the time. We weren't punished for it, either.

It does sound like you have had a hard time with your escaping son. I know that it can be scary so I completely understand that you got very upset about it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AutumnBreeze* 
Until it has happened to you, I don't think you should pass judgment on a parent's idea of a consequence/punishment upon this action. there is really very little you can think of when they do this. It's so shocking, and really really shakes you. No amount of talking did anything for us. It litterally took the cops being called, and the office (Sheriff) wanting to talk to my son, and he was crying the entire time he was talking to the sheriff. I had been in tears when we saw him talking to the neighbor from his cruiser, and I was beyond terrified that CPS would be our next visitor, and they would be leaving with one or both of my children.

I didn't mean to pass judgment, I just don't believe that it is necessary or right to punish. I do know that as a parent you can get completely desperate at times, and of course especially when you fear that something bad can happen to your children. (Hey, it's not as if everything I have ever done with my kids have been well-thought-out and correct according to my own ideals, either!)

It does sound like this experience has been much more shocking for you than I think it could have been for me in my situation. I doubt very much that anybody would have called the police or the CPS if they saw a five year old playing outside in the street where I live. It's rather normal for five or six year olds to go outside on their own here - they start school at six, after all, and most children walk there by themselves. So how would the neighbours know that he hadn't asked permission to go out? And we would definitely not have had a policeman coming round to talk to the child anyhow, you're not legally responsible until you're fifteen, so if anything they would talk to the parents (but it's not illegal for a child to be outside).

So, I understand that you got very scared by what happened, and I didn't mean to judge you.


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