# Logical consequence for waking up the baby



## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

DD has developed a pattern of freaking out with loud screaming soon after the baby has been put down to sleep. This then wakes up the baby. I don't think it's exactly intentional, as it often happens around her own bedtime (often a tense issue) but I also think she is capable of controlling her voume more than she is. This behavior is a BIG problem for me, because when DS gets woken early from nap he is cranky all day and when DS gets woken at night I have to go in and nurse him forever to get him back down (and I have chronic nursing pain). Not only that, this behavior of hers makes me very very angry at her and casts a pall over our time together.

This situation is not working. I need ideas. DS already has a white noise machine in his room, but our house is very small and her room is next to his.

The natural consequence during the day is for me to go back in and try to get DS down to sleep. I have done this, but she will scream outside his door (if I lock us in) or come in and scream at me. I don't know what it would be at night, as DH puts her down for bed anyway so my absence is not an issue.

I am considering having her do something (a chore?) for me or him to make up for being inconsiderate and unkind to the both of us. Is this out of line? I don't know what it would be anyway.

Other ideas? I seriously need help with this.


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## wdube (Jul 19, 2005)

It sounds like DD wants your attention. Have you tried talking to her about what her need is so you are clear about how to meet it.

DS1 went throught this type of thing when DS2 was younger. He would come in and make a lot of noise when I was trying to get DS2 down for a nap. It was very frustrating!!!! But ... the more worked up I got, the more it happened -- and I was actually the one keeping the baby up. Finally, I started asking DS1 to stay downstairs while I put DS1 down. I suggested he start a puzzle, coloring, etc. and I'd join him as soon as I can. I also talked a lot of all the things we could do together, one-on-one, while DS2 was sleeping.

For us, this phase didn't last too long, and we still enjoy that quiet time together every day.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Practicing being quiet immediately for five minutes periodically for the rest of the day may be a logical consequence at this age if the problem is noise. If she is doing this for attention then helping her find other ways to get that attention may work better than a consequence. It looks like she is about 4 and a half, if my math is correct, so she could probably understand if you sat with her and told her that you will play with her when the baby is asleep at naptime and that if she is quiet the baby will sleep longer.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Like the others have said, I would try to get her on board with staying quiet. Give her something to look forward to once you have the baby down to nap. This will give her incentive to stay quiet.

For going to bed at night, maybe enlisting DH more in rearranging the bedtime routine so that it doesn't interfere with baby. Maybe have her go to sleep before baby does? Or starting the routine before baby goes down? Or doing her bedtime routine somewhere else? Or having baby somewhere else.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

What if she got to play with or do something special during the baby's naptime - but only if she stayed quiet? Maybe the special entertainment would keep her from freaking out, but if she did end up screaming and waking the baby, the special thing would be put away. (But if you told her she could have it again once he was back to sleep, maybe that would motivate her to stop screaming and be quiet to encourage him to fall asleep more quickly.)

It sounds like this might not work at night, since she can't have special playtime if she's going to bed herself. I suppose you could tell her that waking the baby at night would mean no special naptime fun the next day.


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## aschmied (Apr 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wdube* 
It sounds like DD wants your attention. Have you tried talking to her about what her need is so you are clear about how to meet it.

DS1 went throught this type of thing when DS2 was younger. He would come in and make a lot of noise when I was trying to get DS2 down for a nap. It was very frustrating!!!! But ... the more worked up I got, the more it happened -- and I was actually the one keeping the baby up. Finally, I started asking DS1 to stay downstairs while I put DS1 down. I suggested he start a puzzle, coloring, etc. and I'd join him as soon as I can. I also talked a lot of all the things we could do together, one-on-one, while DS2 was sleeping.

For us, this phase didn't last too long, and we still enjoy that quiet time together every day.









:
We had this, too. It didn't last all that long for us, either. It started when DS was, oh, 4/5 mo, and stopped around 7 months. A long few months, but short in the greater scheme of things. For my particular DD, I needed to promise her time up in the ergo if that's what she wanted during DS's nap. She frequently did, at first. Now, she rarely does, but I still try to offer, as she needs it sometimes. His naps are still largely dedicated to her, and she now gets the payoff. I managed to, eventually, get myself to shrug it off if she woke him up. This got her the natural consequence of a grumpy baby brother, and a distracted mommy. NOT her goal.









For bedtime, you say that it is often a tense issue. I would concentrate on that for the bedtime problem. What can you do to make it a happier time? I had this, and in spades, too. We now take the kids for a walk at bedtime, and DD falls asleep in the stroller. That probably won't be your solution, but look for what might make bedtime low stress for her, and you'll probably get low stress for you....

Good luck!


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## anywaybecause (Jul 9, 2008)

I agree, she probably wants your attention. It's hard to be deposed.









Is it possible to give your dd a few quiet toys or board books and have her play quietly on the floor in the baby's room while you are putting the baby down? Then dd will be near you . . . maybe that will suffice, especially if you explain the situation. If dd can play quietly while you get the baby down for nap, then dd can have uninterrupted time with you afterwards. The more she fusses and screams about having to wait (or whatever), the less one-on-one time she will have, simply by the way of things.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

From my experience, I don't think a chore would be out of line. But...I don't think it would work either









I agree with the pps, that you should try to make it a less tense situation and give her a quiet toy to play with. Or, it sounds like she's still napping, so why don't you put her to sleep first? Or maybe she can lay down with a book on CD while you put him to sleep? Or, the old standby, a video? I usually let my dd play pbskids.com or starfall while I put the boys to sleep, could she do that?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Thanks for the ideas. As I think this over, it isn't really so much of an issue during the day; it happens much more often at bedtime. Nap is easier to find a consequence for anyway because, well, she loses my attention. At bedtime, as I've said, she doesn't "lose" me as DH does bed anyway. (She likes him to.)

So the real issue is at her bedtime. I think it's mainly that bedtime is hard and she doesn't really care if she wakes him. I actually don't think it's about losing my attention, except maybe in the grander scheme of things. I think it's more about not being used to having to consider him (and maybe not so much wanting to).

Baby goes to bed early (about 7). I can't move his bedtime. He can't sleep anyplace farther from her--just isn't space in our small ranch house.

About this:

Quote:

What if she got to play with or do something special during the baby's naptime - but only if she stayed quiet? Maybe the special entertainment would keep her from freaking out, but if she did end up screaming and waking the baby, the special thing would be put away. (But if you told her she could have it again once he was back to sleep, maybe that would motivate her to stop screaming and be quiet to encourage him to fall asleep more quickly.)

It sounds like this might not work at night, since she can't have special playtime if she's going to bed herself. I suppose you could tell her that waking the baby at night would mean no special naptime fun the next day.
We have "special mama-DD time" during the day when DS naps. She gets to choose what we do, and she gets 100% of my attention then (no housework, etc). She really cherishes it. I did revoke this special time the next day one night recently when she woke up DS. She was really upset about this, and took it hard. However, do you think it's a decent logical consequence? It's not really all that logical and I felt like I might be shooting myself in the foot by taking away time that "fills her cup."


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
We have "special mama-DD time" during the day when DS naps. She gets to choose what we do, and she gets 100% of my attention then (no housework, etc). She really cherishes it. I did revoke this special time the next day one night recently when she woke up DS. She was really upset about this, and took it hard. However, do you think it's a decent logical consequence? It's not really all that logical and I felt like I might be shooting myself in the foot by taking away time that "fills her cup."

Good thoughts about whether or not this would work. How frustrating. I'm sure you've done this but you can you sit down together and just talk about how it would make her feel if someone were loud when she was trying to sleep? I guess my instinct is to help her empathize with him. You might talk about how if ds doesn't get enough sleep at night, he's crabby the next day and needs to be held more by you and then you have less time for her. I wonder if there's a spin on being considerate that affects her as well.

The sleep stuff drives me nuts so I totally relate and empathize. Does she watch TV at all? This isn't logical at all, but I wonder if you could revoke TV privileges for the next day or something like that. I hate to get too punitive but sometimes if a behavior is that disruptive, I'll resort to less than ideal tactics. Good luck with it.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
We have "special mama-DD time" during the day when DS naps. She gets to choose what we do, and she gets 100% of my attention then (no housework, etc). She really cherishes it. I did revoke this special time the next day one night recently when she woke up DS. She was really upset about this, and took it hard. However, do you think it's a decent logical consequence? It's not really all that logical and I felt like I might be shooting myself in the foot by taking away time that "fills her cup."

Yeah, I think you might be right that taking away that time would only make things worse. I wouldn't give a consequence like that, personally. But I wouldn't do the chore one, either. I think when there's really a logical consequence, it's so logical it's obvious, and if you have to try to think one up you're straying from the logical consequence concept. (I don't think that's actually my own idea; I think the author of Positive Discipline or somebody like that said it somewhere.) Anyway, I would probably focus on what seems to be causing DD's screaming freakouts and try to address that. (Maybe you could also work on finding other ways to get the baby back to sleep besides nursing him. What if your DH rocked him or took him for a walk in the sling?)


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## birdie22 (Apr 1, 2005)

nak-

this wkend we were travelling and stayed at a hotel. 1st night was horrific. 2nd night, ds had been given a toy he loved, and he played with it quietly in bed until he finally collapsed. It was actually a spiderman thing that I hated because it was a mindless button-pushing toy, but it kept him transfixed and he dropped off to slep.

I don't know if there's anything she has or would like enough to make it her special bedtime toy? Maybe something that lights up?


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## j924 (May 17, 2005)

You said you can't move the baby's sleep time. Could you move hers? That way her screaming(if it happens) doesn't bother anyone.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

My daughter use to be loud on purpose after I asked her to be quiet so she wouldn't wake her brothers. I tried a number of things, but she continued to do it. It was such a hot button for me, I guess she couldn't resist pushing it. The only thing that ended up working for us was for me to let go of trying to get her to be quiet. Once it wasn't an issue for me, she quit doing it. Crazy, Huh?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Ugh. I'm remembering a summer spent with my dd (age 2) and ds1 (3-4 months) in a 2 bedroom, 800 sq ft house w/no a/c. I don't envy you!

Anyway, we had a GIANT fan that we used for white noise for ds1, and we mixed it up w/bedrooms. Sometimes we put ds1 to bed in our room and dd to bed in her room, even though they shared a wall and noise would still penetrate. Sometimes we put ds1 in his crib and dd in our bed. That seemed to work best, actually, but I don't know if you co-sleep or not. The white noise really helped, too. Do you use white noise with the baby?

How about a game? Could she pretend her brother is a monster that she can't wake up?

Also, what is she doing? Is she having tantrums? Can you try to work around them so that bedtime is calm and more conducive to quiet?


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

I think if you give her consequences only for being loud when it wakes up the baby, then you are setting them up for sibling rivalry. the book [siblings without rivalry] by faber and mazlisch (sp?) is really a must read. a good idea is to set up another time when she must be quiet- that has nothing to do with the baby- and practice rewards and consequences during that time, too. If you can make the naptime privileges go towards small motor play, and get her to do it on the table, you will save yourself some trouble when your 5.5 year old wants to make tiny bead necklaces while the baby totters around. Like a pp, I ended up just letting dd1 be loud, not having consequences for waking the baby, and emphasizing naptime fun. Also role playing helps, like having to be quiet while grandma takes a nap, or papa goes to sleep early. at that age it is fun practicing to be quiet in a tent under the dining room table. . . .


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I love all of these creative ideas...they are awesome. I just wanted to throw in the part about not having any energy...there are often times when there are much better ways for me to handle situations but I'm just too darned tired. So I just wanted to empathize with that piece since I know it's there and it's so hard!


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

I think when there's really a logical consequence, it's so logical it's obvious, and if you have to try to think one up you're straying from the logical consequence concept.
You know, that does totally make sense. It's just that the behavior is so crazy-making for me. And trying to let go of it upsetting me also makes sense, but man, I am sleep-deprived and in need of breaks, and this is a really tough one. It also plays on the mama-bear instincts--I feel really bad for DS when he is woken.

I have tried the consideration angle. She is actually very fond of her brother and I don't think any of this is spiteful as much as her just not being used to having to control her volume. Which brings me to this:

Quote:

I think if you give her consequences only for being loud when it wakes up the baby, then you are setting them up for sibling rivalry.
Whoa, that's a REALLY good point that hadn't occurred to me at all. I need to get that book anyway. Your other suggestions are \good, except they work much better for the waking-him-up-at-naptime thing, which turns out to not be the issue as much as her fairly frequent bedtime meltdowns waking him.

And yeah, a core issue is clearly that she HAS bedtime meltdowns. I wish she didn't, but she periodically just does and has for years. It often happens when she's too tired (unsurprisingly). We work HARD on getting her to bed on time, but she is also a chronic dawdler who often takes an hour to eat dinner. And she also has trouble with transitions, so bedtime has always been tricky. I honestly am not sure how to make bedtime go more smoothly. It's just a hard time for us all. Until DS came along we just accepted a certain number of bedtime incidents and were okay with it to a point in the name of getting her to bed by a certain time (she really needs her sleep).


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