# Doing for your kids



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I was reading the thread about what you do when your kids don't listen to you, and I noticed that I seem to differ with other parents about what to do. I expect that my kids do what they are told to do. I don't tell them to do much. Basically, they are only told to clean up their toys, clean up after their meals, and get their clothes/shoes when it is time to get dressed or go somewhere.

I noticed that other parents have said that if they ask their child to do something and they child doesn't do it, they do it for them while saying something like, "I don't like having to do this for you."

I'm wondering what people are hoping their kids learn from this. It seems to me that if you ask a child to do something and the child says no and you do it for him, what the child is learning is that if he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't have to, no big deal.

That's not what I want my kids to learn. I want them to learn that, as part of the family, they have responsibilities to the family, regardless of whether they feel like it or not.

I'm not trying to debate here, I'm sincerely curious. Do people think that, after watching Mom clean up after him 24 times (and grumble about it), the 25th time he'll spontaneously decide to do it so as to spare his poor Mom her feelings? To me it seems like repeatedly doing for your kids while telling them how unhappy you are to do it is just guilt-inducing and that merely making it plain that you expect them to be of help to the family is a less manipulative/guilt-tripping way to go. I guess I think being direct has its benefits.

Namaste!


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## GoldBerry (Oct 4, 2004)

Just curious- what do you do when they do not listen to you? Sorry, I didn't read the other post.

We expect our almost 5 year old to do what we ask her. We use consequences(she loses gum or her tv hour for the next day) I don't know what others will think of this, but it seems to work for us. Also, it makes sense to me and dh. After all, as adults if we misbehave, we have to deal with the consequences. IMHO.


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## MomBirthmomStepmom (May 14, 2005)

My SO did and still does this on occasion too. If his son didn't do what he asked him to, he kinda blew it off and would end up doing it for him. No consequence, nothing.

Now, me, I don't do that. If something isn't done, (like shoes put away, meals cleaned up etc), it will sit there until step-son does it, and for each extra time it took him to do something, something is taken away or an extra chore is added. (Mind you, my step-son is 9). We will take away his video game time (ugh, I wish he didn't have any, but remember, I'm the step-mom...lol Wasn't my choice!), or something like that.

Now my 4 year old, she listens well, most of the time, so I honestly don't really deal with this with her.... So, I'm no help there.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think it's interesting how "asking" and "telling" a child to do something are seen as pretty much interchangeable in the posts above, when speaking to a child... but when speaking to an adult, they're totally different things. It seems that when you say "ask", you mean "tell".

I ask my child to do things, and she has a right to say "no". The thing is, she rarely does. She might ask if it's okay to wait until she finishes watching a show or something, or if she's not feeling well she'll mention that, but her not helping out when asked just isn't a big issue.... and I, of course, think that's because she *can* say no. It's been like this since she was a toddler. There's no power struggle there. I was always willing to do things for her, like carry her or put her shoes on, but at some point she said she wanted to do them herself and did.

Dar


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I can't really shed any light on your question, because I'm with you! If I ask DD to do something (put away her toys, or hang up her towel, or whatever), she DOES it. And if she doesn't do it within a reasonable amount of time, I will tell her that I am upset that she didn't do what I asked, or explain the natural consequences ("Wet towels on the bed get the bed wet.") And that's usually all it takes.

My kid isn't stupid. If all I did was grumble as I picked up the toys or hung up the towels, she'd think she had a pretty sweet deal.

Doing the job for your child after asking her to do it makes it clear to her that you aren't that married to the idea of her doing it herself.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

If I ask my chidlren to do something then they have a choice as to wether or not to do it. usually however I just tell them to do stuff because they do not indeed have choice. I don't say would, could you or please. i just asy "honey, time to get your shoe on" and if they don't do it then we address right then how they are a part of this fmaily and they are expected to help out. part of helping is doing what you are told when you are told to do. We explain why we have athourity and who has athourity over us and who has athourity over them etc. . .we also explain that they have to trust mom and dad. that we have ben around the block a few times and know what is going on and don't always have time to negotiate or go into details about the whys of our choices etc. . . they get this and they know that mom won't let it drop. that we wil work on it until we are all in agreement that what mom and dad says goes and they have a certain responsibility in this structure to make everything run smooth for everyone. Consitancy has made it such that I rarely have to ask twice and we rarely have power struggles but when we do we just work through it. My oldest one struggles but that is because I was so inconsistant when she was little and never had very low expecttions. So we just sort of sprung it on her all of a sudden.

But I have read too the whole asking kids to do somehting and then doing it yourself while letting htem know how unhappy you are to have to clean up thier mess or whatever. I guess if it works for them but my theory is don't ask unless you are willing to cheerfully take no for an answer. Ocaisionally I will ask my children if they want to clean thier room or if they want me too (I haven't been very consistant in expecting this of them or putting in the time teaching them how to do it) and they will usually choose to do it themselves because when I do I throw stuff way, clear clutter, weed out toys, weed out clothes I don't like, find hidden stashes of stuff they wish would have stayed hidden etc . . . So whenI do something for them thre is usually a consequence. not so much punitive but a "if I have to do it I am going to do it in a way that suits me and maybe avois this problem next time" which rarely is what they desire. But then they had the choice to do it thier way.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

After I posted my OP I figured that someone would comment on my using ask and tell interchangeably, but I didn't bother to fix it because colloquially ask and tell mean the same thing. I figured everyone would know what I meant. For clarification, if I say to my kids, "Would you please do this for me?" then I am asking a favor and they are free to refuse. But if I say, "Do this," that's a request and they are expected to obey.

If my kids don't do what I ask them to do, they don't move on to the next activity. I don't make it a power struggle, though. Occasionally, they say no. I usually don't make a big deal of it when that happens. I leave the task undone or I do it for them. I don't lord over them making sure they obey me at all times, and I don't gripe about how upset it makes me to have to do it for them. I think we have struck a happy medium, and the fact that they generally do as they are asked/told is good enough for me. I am raising people, not robots.









There is, however, a general expectation that when they are "told" do something, they do it. And generally they do. If they have a reason not to do something, such as "I can't clean up the books now because I'm still playing library," they generally don't have to do it then. If the reason is, "I just don't want to," well, they have to do it. I do lots of things for my family that I don't want to or don't feel like doing at that time. I do them because I am a member of the family and my contributions help keep the family running smoothly. Just because my kids are 2 feet shorter than me (yes, I'm short) does not entitle them to get out of contributing just because they "don't feel like it."

I also make a concerted effort not to tell my kids to do something just for a lark. I tell them to clean up their toys before nap and before bed so that the house stays in reasonable working order. I tell them to take their dishes to the kitchen counter after meals so that I can load the dishwasher more easily. I tell them to get their own clothes so that I can get dressed first and then help them or so that I can be packing the diaper bag while they are getting socks/shoes. Their contributions to the family harmony are real and not contrived just so I can make them obey me.

Namaste!


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## MomBirthmomStepmom (May 14, 2005)

I also agree there's a big difference between 'ask' and 'tell'... When I 'ask' my children to do something, they can say no, or they can do it. No consequences. I won't 'ask' them to do something I'm expecting to be done right this moment... Does that make sense?

If it's something they need to do (get ready to leave, brush their teeth, etc etc), they will be 'told' to do that.

If it's a chore, that they know they have to do (we have chores written out on a simplified list, nothing major, age appropriate), then they're expected to do it. Period.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Dar's post explains my position/experience on this as well (and better than I would have likely)

I do not mind doing for them, and they do for me sometimes as well. In our house I probably wouldn't say "pick up your toys please." but something like "Do you think your toys are in a good place on the floor there? I'm wondering if someone might step on them or if they might get misplaced." If they left the toys there and it someone got hurt or we needed the space the toys were in/on for some other reason either I would move them out of the way, or I would ask my child to giving the reason why it needed to be done.

Dishes, coats, etc same deal.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I guess my only issue with some of the posts here is that many times someone will begin their posts with...

"my child is usually great about doing chores/picking things up/helping with dishes...etc... but lately he will NOT put his coat away.. what should I do????????"

(or something similar)

In which case, I am usually thinking, what is the big deal? Put the coat away for the kid and be done with it... it is not worth it to me to get into huge power struggles over one or 2 little things...

No, I don't plan on being a martyr and if my child flat out refused to do ANYTHING all the time...that it would be an issue to be addressed---- which I don't really foresee--as it has been my experience with EVERY child I have EVER known that basically, they all like to help out at least *some* of the time...

So my theory on it is, in our home we all work as a family... for instance, the trash and dishes and lawn are *mostly* dh's thing and he does them 95% of the time... but occasionally I see the trash flowing over the can and ya know what? I freaking change it. I don't bitch, I don't coerce, I don't make a thing of it.. I just do it... as he does for me with the things that are usually my *jobs* (or whatever you want to call it)...

Again, it would probably be an issue if someone in the family never did anything or helped at all ... but I don't see that as being a problem in many posts so I dunno what exactly the issue is sometimes...

just my take...


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
If the reason is, "I just don't want to," well, they have to do it. I do lots of things for my family that I don't want to or don't feel like doing at that time. I do them because I am a member of the family and my contributions help keep the family running smoothly. Just because my kids are 2 feet shorter than me (yes, I'm short) does not entitle them to get out of contributing just because they "don't feel like it."

See mine don't have to do anything, at least under my authority.(For the purposes of this discussion I am excluding the extreme things and referring to normal, everday things)

Of course we have guided them in thinking about their actions, and making responsible decisions and they know we value kindness and helpfulness but putting those things into action is their deal. We model the behaviors we like to see, but we can't force them to have them or act on them. Then it would be a power issue, and then they are helping because they have to...not because they feel it's right and good and kind. My goal isn't to have a child that helps because they must or because they are forced/required to because I said so, but because they want to & they feel good about doing so.

I do lots of things for my family too, but sometimes I don't. Somedays I decide that I am not making dinner because I would rather be on the computer, or that the bathtub can be scrubbed later because I am more into something else. I can't imagine my kids telling me that I can't knit until I get the bathtub cleaned







and likewise they don't have to do one thing before they can do another.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Again, it would probably be an issue if someone in the family never did anything or helped at all ...

Right. I mean if suddenly no one else in my home was doing anything but me, I would probably start to feel frustrated (and tired!) and I would address it with them. It has yet to happen









My son's "job" somehow came to be taking the garbage out. He mostly gets to it before it's overflowing or icky, and sometimes he doesn't. So someone else will.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I do lots of things for my family too, but sometimes I don't. Somedays I decide that I am not making dinner because I would rather be on the computer, or that the bathtub can be scrubbed later because I am more into something else. I can't imagine my kids telling me that I can't knit until I get the bathtub cleaned and likewise they don't have to do one thing before they can do another.
My sentiments exactly...

...it all depends on where the parent is coming from too. Me, I come from the perspective that my children are equal to me...of course being younger and in my care, they may not have *all* the same privledges all the time... but they have the same basic rights and choices with respect to things that don't endanger their safety etc...

Things like picking up toys and the like are issues that aren't worth it to me to fight about or have power struggles over... again, if it got to the point where they NEVER EVER once, EVER picked up ANY toys.. I may say something honest like-- look, mama is willing to pick up 10 toys every day but not 25..so if you don't feel like helping, mama is only getting out as many toys as she feels like picking up, deal? (or something similar) To me that is something along the lines of not being punitive, or coercive... it is somewhat restrictive in that they won't get to take out 25 toys, but again, they do have the choice and it puts boundries on what I am willing to do...

but again, I don't anticipate those kinds of problems.. I have yet to see a child who NEVER helped with ANYTHING ever...


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

The only job my kids are 'required' to do is to clean up their toys. They are asked to do this once a day. With three kids, my house would be completely trashed if I didn't and if I waited for them to decide to do it, well it just wouldn't happen. I'll usually give them a reason to do it like, I need to run the vacuum, or let's clean up and make the house look nice when Daddy gets home from work, etc. This usually helps. The toys belong to them, not me. I'm not a maid for my kids, but I will help them sometimes. I have separate bins for dress up clothes, barbies, baby dolls, etc., so cleaning isn't hard. They have a habit of just dumping things into any container when the mess is big. Every now and then, I'll go in the playroom and help sort the toys back into the containers. Other than that, it's their responsibility. We have talked about the fact that as a family, we each have the responsibility to help out around the house.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

As for chores, we just sorta choose the chores we most enjoy (or least dislike). Everyone helps out. I like to do dishes and tidy the house (the whole house, including dd's things), dh likes to do the laundry--sorting thru folding and putting away, dd likes to care for the dogs and scrub things and help prepare the table for dinner. So no one is generally told what to do--we just see the need to be done (the dog is barking to go out, dd lets him out) and do it. I never tell dd to clean her toys, but she will often help me clean up her toys. As long as she is a willing, helpful member of the household, I don't care if she specifically cleans up her own toys.

As for getting dressed, I consider that a developmental milestone. If dd wants to be "babied", I will dress her as long as she likes. If she is not wanting to get dressed even with my help, then there is probably a need to be addressed. I would work to sort that out, and then we would get her dressed. I simply can not believe that she will want me to dress her at 13, so I don't sweat that one


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
. My goal isn't to have a child that helps because they must or because they are forced/required to because I said so, but because they want to & they feel good about doing so. .









:


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I noticed that other parents have said that if they ask their child to do something and they child doesn't do it, they do it for them while saying something like, "I don't like having to do this for you."

I'm wondering what people are hoping their kids learn from this. It seems to me that if you ask a child to do something and the child says no and you do it for him, what the child is learning is that if he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't have to, no big deal.

That's not what I want my kids to learn. I want them to learn that, as part of the family, they have responsibilities to the family, regardless of whether they feel like it or not.

What I want my kid to learn is that we all work together, and if one of us is not feeling up to doing their part, then another is going to pitch in, even if it causes inconvenience, and even if we don't particularly like the task at hand;that I have expectations, but I understand that no one can meet expectations all the time; that he has choices that can give him a sense of self-worth -- hey, when I do this, Mom really appreciates it and it adds something of value to the family, but when I don't, it really throws a wrench in the smooth functioning of our lives. I want him to learn that things really do work better when everyone does their part, and that some things just have to get done, no matter how that happens.

I think this works to teach him those things because I think that kids inherently want to do the right thing, and I think with strong enough modeling, clear enough expectations, clear enough family values, he will learn to do things in the spirit of cooperation and responsibility -- and not learn to do them because I tell him to and I have all the power.

I hope that's clear. I'm typing one-handed. I _do_ want to make clear that I don't think my way of doing things is the only way to accomplish these goals; it's simply the way I have chosen.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
So whenI do something for them thre is usually a consequence. not so much punitive but a "if I have to do it I am going to do it in a way that suits me and maybe avois this problem next time" which rarely is what they desire. But then they had the choice to do it thier way.

Hahaha YUP! Like the if I have to pick up the Legos, they will get put up on top of the kitchen cabinets and not back in his room where he can play with them whenever he feels like it.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I'm not very comfortable with the idea of punishing my kid for not doing what I say. Granted dd is still so little that I can't expect all that much from her in terms of doing stuff for herself. But I don't like strong-arm, I-will-make-you-obey-me tactics.

I also don't really beleive in grumbling or complaining because I have to do stuff. My MIL does that all the time- does stuff and complains about it. It never seems to motivate DH or BIL to help her. IMO complaining is a passive-aggressive punishment, not to mention annoying.

There's a difference between expecting kids to be helpful vs. expecting them to be obedient. I am always amazed how happy dd is to "help" with stuff. She gets a huge sense of pride when she can assist me. However, she is not a fan of doing what people tell her. Specifically she seems to resist a certain kind of tone or expectation or pressure when it comes to cleaning up. I suppose it's partially because she's not capable of cleaning hardly anything on her own yet, so it's kind've expecting too much to ask her to. (She is uncomfortable doing stuff she's not competant at.)

I agree with pp that it's important to teach kids that everyone must help out in a family, but I'm not sure what kind of role obedience plays in that.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks, PaganScribe, that's a great answer.

Btw, I DO help my kids get dressed. What I don't help them do (generally) is pick out their clothes. They are perfectly capable of picking a shirt from the shirt drawer, pants from the pants drawer, and socks/underwear from the socks/underwear drawer. In the past, when they have asked me to help them pick out their clothes, they generally don't like whatever I pick. So I've pretty much washed my hands of that one.

Namaste!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I also don't really beleive in grumbling or complaining because I have to do stuff. My MIL does that all the time- does stuff and complains about it. It never seems to motivate DH or BIL to help her. IMO complaining is a passive-aggressive punishment, not to mention annoying.
.

I agree. I'd rather model that I am happy to help her! Someone once said....Don't worry so much that your children are not listening to you....worry that they are always watching you! If I grumble about helping her, she will likely be stingy with her help as well.

That is not to say I never grumble or complain....I am certainly human and easily exasperated....but I am personally uncomfortable with this as a parenting strategy.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I don't get involved in power struggles with my kids, period. Asking a child to do something, or telling them, and then insisting if they refuse is a power struggle. And they will usually win.

I don't want my kids to do something just because I tell them to. I'm not talking about safety issues here, like running in the street or taking off their seatbelts. My 16mo has no concept of why her toys should be picked up. Is that really something she needs to know at this age? It only takes me a few minutes to clean up her toys. Usually she'll start doing it with me. My 3yo is starting to understand that if he doesn't pick up his toys, he won't know exactly where they are when he wants to play with them if he isn't the one to put them away and if they are all over the place he has a harder time finding what he wants. Eventually he'll understand that it takes me longer to get dessert if I'm responsible for clearing the table alone the way that my 7yo does. It is definitely trickier for me with my 3yo because my 7yo has always done pretty much what I ask of him. My 3yo refuses about half the time, but he does more and more all the time. A year ago he refused almost all the time.

I fail to see what is really gained by expecting kids to do what you ask of them just because you ask. I don't think that really teaches them a sense of responsibility. If a 3yo cannot understand the concept of cleaning up after himself so that I don't have to, to make my life easier, making him do it isn't going to teach him that. It will just teach him that he has to do it or I'll get mad. Really, there isn't anything that I could ask him to do that I couldn't do in much less time, especially if you consider the amount of time and energy it would take for me to force him or manipulate him into doing it. I see this almost every night in my backyard. All of the kids go in at about 7:00. The parents are in the yards putting away toys and usually yelling at their kids to help them clean up. There is foot stomping, yelling, and sometimes tears. I'm usually the first one done because I'm not arguing with my brood about getting it done.

If my 7yo leaves his bike on the basketball court, I do not get it for him. He understands that this is his responsibility. I will remind him if I see it out there, the same way my neighbor might knock on my door to tell me that I left my lights on. If my 3yo leaves his bike out there, I'm not going to expect that he can understand the consequences of leaving it out there all night.

That got long, but I think I got my point across. It just doesn't make sense to me to fight with kids about chores. I see that they have progressed on their own. I don't believe in enforcing lessons on them that they are not capable of understanding.


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I don't 'fight' with my children, nor do I get into power struggles over cleaning. My 2.5 yo is not expected to clean up. She will sometimes help, but usually doesn't. The 5 and 7 yo understand that cleaning their toys is THEIR job and NOT mine. If I were to pick up their toys, I would literally be doing so all day long. This wouldn't benefit them in the long run and definitely would leave me frustrated and upset. Sometimes my 5 yo will complain that her little sister doesn't help and 'it's not fair' I remind her that she didn't clean at two either. I'll suggest they take her with them and let her help, meaning they hand her something and tell her where to put it. Over time this will teach her how to clean and she will help as she grows and begins to understand the importance of not living in a dump. Allowing them to trash the house will only result in my dh being upset and arguments. Totally not worth it for any of us. I watched my MIL and SIL clean up after my neices and nephew for years, well into the teen years. All they did was complain about it.


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## mamangazelle (Apr 25, 2003)

When I ask her to do something and there would be no natural consequence (like put away your toys), I just give her a "schedule".

Me: Please, put away your toys before we eat dinner. (in an hour)
Dd: Mmmm.

later...

Me: time to eat!
dd arrives, her plate is not on the table...
dd: where's my meal?
Me: where are your toys? Go put them away and I'll reheat your meal.

I don't repeat myself, I don't ask her multiple times. This doesn't always work, but most of the time, a version of that can.

This is with my 6 1/2 yo btw.

edited to add that I ask a moderate amount of work, things that can be done in a few minutes: put away a few toys, put her dirty clothes in the laundry basket. If there are too many things to clean, I help her, because I would like to be helped if I had a big job to do.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I fail to see what is really gained by expecting kids to do what you ask of them just because you ask. I don't think that really teaches them a sense of responsibility.

I think it teaches kids that they have a place in the family and a way to contribute. I also think it establishes habits, which make life easier in the long run. I don't think kids have to understand why their work helps. I think just knowing that they have jobs to do is enough at that age.

Namaste!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

I think it teaches kids that they have a place in the family and a way to contribute. I also think it establishes habits, which make life easier in the long run. I don't think kids have to understand why their work helps. I think just knowing that they have jobs to do is enough at that age.

Namaste!
I see your point, but I disagree. I don't think most 2 or 3yo are really capable of understanding that and I don't think that insisting or forcing a child to complete a certain task does anything to reinforce that understanding. You might be telling them that they are doing it for these reasons, but what they hear is that they are doing it because you told them to. If they really had an understanding of the concept of teamwork, you wouldn't have to tell them to clean up their rooms or put their dishes in the sink or even ask.

I also don't believe that habits really help much in the long run. So my son is in the habit of putting his plate in the sink when he has finished eating because I've told him to a hundred times. How does that help him understand that he must also put his clothes in the hamper when they are dirty or that he needs to keep his things tidy when he spends the night with a friend? I don't think that you can teach understanding through habit, but you can teach habit through understanding.


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

Well, I don't see anything wrong about expecting a child to do something because you ask them to. I 'ask' them to do many things throughout the day just as they may ask me to do something or DH might 'ask'. If it's really optional, then I'll really ask them "Would you help me unload the groceries?' but if I expect help, I'll tell them "Come on and help me with the groceries." I also leave lists for my 12 an 15 year olds to do things when I'm going to be out for the evening since they live here for free and I need help!









Ya know, I just went away with 18 junior high teens and I could SO tell the kids who have chores to do at home and those who are not expected to do stuff unless they want. I know these families personally and it really hit home that telling the kids to do things is really OK and TEACHES them to be responsible. The worst offender was one kid who's mom has told me numerous times that she doesn't feel it's right to give the kids chores but that they will learn what needs to be done by watching and when they're ready, they'll do it. This girl is 13 years old and was SO lazy ----- on a work weekend no less! We specifically went to this camp to work at setting things up for the summer - there was no cost to the kids and they even got a free t-shirt - but this girl just complained "It's too heavy." "I can't do that because I had back surgery last year." etc. MAN, did that drive me nuts and I have to say, I DID tell her what to do and made sure she did it. LOL! There was no way she was along for a free ride and I feel the same way with the kids. I don't WANT to do the dishes but I do them because they need to get done and it makes the place look nice but if I didn't do them, I'm sure DH would have something to say about it. On the otherhand, my girls don't always do the dishes on their own so I have no quams telling them to do it if I need to snuggle with a sick child or get to work. They live here too and have to work to stay. :LOL

Ann


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I think it's interesting how "asking" and "telling" a child to do something are seen as pretty much interchangeable in the posts above, when speaking to a child... but when speaking to an adult, they're totally different things. It seems that when you say "ask", you mean "tell".

I ask my child to do things, and she has a right to say "no". The thing is, she rarely does. She might ask if it's okay to wait until she finishes watching a show or something, or if she's not feeling well she'll mention that, but her not helping out when asked just isn't a big issue.... and I, of course, think that's because she *can* say no. It's been like this since she was a toddler. There's no power struggle there. I was always willing to do things for her, like carry her or put her shoes on, but at some point she said she wanted to do them herself and did.

Dar











Here's the thing- if there's a mess, we generally clean it up together. If I spill my tea, my son will often grab a dishtowel and help me clean it up. He doesn't say to me, "I didn't make that mess, so I'm not cleaning it." or "You're 30, you should be responsible for cleaning up your own mess." He just helps me.

And I help him. I explain why we need to clean something, ask for help, and I get it. Or he tells me he's still playing with something, or wants to do it together later. That's generally ok. If it's not, in the case of food product, I explain why and we clean it up.

No biggie.
Kaly


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## moonshine (Dec 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I also don't believe that habits really help much in the long run. So my son is in the habit of putting his plate in the sink when he has finished eating because I've told him to a hundred times. How does that help him understand that he must also put his clothes in the hamper when they are dirty or that he needs to keep his things tidy when he spends the night with a friend? I don't think that you can teach understanding through habit, but you can teach habit through understanding.









: I will say, however, that I think that we, as adults, do lots of things out of habit (like why did I just eat those chocolate chip cookes just now when I wasn't really hungry?







), but if the understanding of why we do things isn't there, they are just habits. To this day, my DH just doesn't "see" things that need doing like I do. Well, I take that back -- he has gotten better over the years. But he comes from a home where Mom did just about everything and wouldn't even let her family members help (and I don't hear anyone on this thread suggesting that!). There was never much understanding being taught, other than this is how I do it and if I want it done right, I might as well do it myself.

So I guess what I am saying is that for me, I think there should be a balance between doing the action and understanding a greater context for how we act as a family, what is important to us, etc. I am personally trying to get out of the place that it has to be done my way because I am the adult and be more inclusive about how "we" do things as a family. And hopefully that will help the kids see how we each have a responsibility to the family running smoothly and functioning well, and happy! Course, this requires a lot more talking than I am generally fond of doing while I am trying to get something done, but that is another issue.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

I will say, however, that I think that we, as adults, do lots of things out of habit (like why did I just eat those chocolate chip cookes just now when I wasn't really hungry? ), but if the understanding of why we do things isn't there, they are just habits.
Totally! Which is what I want to avoid with my kids. I want them to think about what they do and why they do it. I don't want them to feel resentful about cleaning their room or doing their homework or anything else that they do. They don't have to like it, I don't like cleaning the kitchen, but I remember brooding while I did those things as a child and that isn't what I want for my kids.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamame*
If it's really optional

The thing is, isn't it all really optional? I mean, there might be consequences, but there is still choice, iykwim?

I guess I just feel that the whole, "I told you to do it, and I expect you to do it" attitude leads to a whole lot of power struggle.

Kaly


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*

I guess I just feel that the whole, "I told you to do it, and I expect you to do it" attitude leads to a whole lot of power struggle.

Kaly


Well not for us in the about 8 years I have been doing this with my three.

And I do tell them that "I don't like it" when they don't sdo something I have told them to do. But NO other consequence.

I don't say those words in some overwhelming, mad or sad voice. It's matter a fact. But I have no problem with them feeling guilty for failing to live up to their responsbilities.
That is what I want. I want them to feel badly if they fail to live up to the things that they owe to others. That is what a conscience is all about.

And as time has moved on, I have fairly little need to say this. I dont' put huge responsibilites on my dd's. But they (for the most part) live up to those responsibilites because I have projected a "this is what I expect of you" attitude.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I realize that I might have given the impression that I never slip up or get frustrated. Yes, after I trip over my son's shoes lying in the doorway for the fifth time in as many days I might get irritated and insist that he pick up his shoes _right now_. I falter. I wasn't raised this way, my mom relied heavily on guilt trips and yelling and my dad would get pissed and do everything himself in a huff or clean our rooms and take our toys away, so I do fall back on what I know sometimes. I don't beat myself up over it, though, and I apologize when I step out of line.

I also don't want to give the impression that I just ask my kids to do something once and if they don't do it, I do it for them and walk around waiting on them hand and foot. I have three kids. No one gets waited on much in my house. As my 7yo gets older he seems to understand more and more that the quickest way to get something done is to do it yourself. I don't punish him by making him wait, but the reality is that he has to most of the time.

What I'm talking about in this thread are my ideals. I fully admit that it doesn't always play out the way I would like. I'm much closer now than I was five years ago, though.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I I was always willing to do things for her, like carry her or put her shoes on, but at some point she said she wanted to do them herself and did.

Dar

I struggle with this now that I have a newborn.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I see your point, but I disagree. I don't think most 2 or 3yo are really capable of understanding that and I don't think that insisting or forcing a child to complete a certain task does anything to reinforce that understanding. You might be telling them that they are doing it for these reasons, but what they hear is that they are doing it because you told them to. If they really had an understanding of the concept of teamwork, you wouldn't have to tell them to clean up their rooms or put their dishes in the sink or even ask.

I also don't believe that habits really help much in the long run. So my son is in the habit of putting his plate in the sink when he has finished eating because I've told him to a hundred times. How does that help him understand that he must also put his clothes in the hamper when they are dirty or that he needs to keep his things tidy when he spends the night with a friend? I don't think that you can teach understanding through habit, but you can teach habit through understanding.

Yes, I guess we really do disagree. Maybe it depends on the child, but my two kids do seem to have an understanding of helping out and that their work is a help to me (and a benefit to them). I draw clear connections for them: "Because you helped me clean up the toys, we have time to read a book before I make lunch!" But like I said before, I don't think the understanding of why their work helps is as important as developing the habit of helping. I didn't mean specific habits, such as putting dishes in the sink. I meant the habit of helping, the expectation that he or she will be called upon to keep the family running smoothly. IMO, not expecting your kids to be of help to the family could set up the road for a very selfish, self-centered kid. Not in every case, of course, but enough cases that I have witnessed that I am not taking the chance with my kids. And like someone else mentioned, I want my kds to be good partners when they grow up and get married/form LTR. I want my kids to carry their weight in the relationship, and I believe that is something that can be taught.

Namaste!

Ps. There has been a lot of talk about "forcing" kids to do stuff. As we all know, it's almost impossible to force a child to do something, and when my kids are resistant (which happens occasionally), I don't make a big deal of it. But the fact that the expectation has been set that they will pitch in to help goes, IMO, a long way toward curbing resistance.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
That is what I want. I want them to feel badly if they fail to live up to the things that they owe to others. That is what a conscience is all about.

*Conscience*: Noun: an awareness of right and wrong, with a compulsion to do right.

*Shame:* noun: A painful feeling of guilt for improper behaviour etc.

I'm thinking this falls more into shame than conscience. I want my kids to help around the house because they feel like they are part of our family team- not because the team leader is going to let them know they are disappointments or make them feel like crap if they don't. It feels good to help out around the house. I like that they are self motivated to do so.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I think we all want to foster the habit of helping! We just have different approaches about how to reach that goal. But developing a helpful attitude in dd is definitely important to me. And, she is in fact a very helpful child. And, as a bonus, she is *always* helping because she wants to be helpful (self-motivated), rather than because I require it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I just say, "time to pick up the blocks" and start picking up the blocks. My dd usually helps without being asked or told. She occasionally is caught up in something else and doesn't. No big deal - it doesn't take long to put away blocks. If I make a mess, and start cleaning it up, she also helps.

I think kids learn a lot naturally by being part of a family. If dh and I always help each other clean up (we do) and we always help her clean up (we do) she assumes it's the thing to do to help us clean up (and she does). I truly don't think kids have to be given consequences to learn this.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

When my children were tiny, We always expected they needed help picking up their toys, so we helped. We still help, and we don't get into power struggles about it. Sometimes i walk in the kids rooms and want to cringe. I will sometimes just pick up what is making me cringe without messing with private stuff, papers etc. I might make the beds, too. Unmade beds don't bother them, but it does bother me. Sometimes I will walk by a messy room and just close the door. Sometimes I will simply tell them it's obvious they can't tell dirty clothes from clean clothes and go in there and sort it. If it's really a mess, dh or i will go in and lend a quick hand. Sometimes, too, i walk by and the beds are made and it's not cringe-worthy.

I never argued with kids overs getting dressed , and I probably dressed my kids far past the age they could easily dress themselves---which they often did. Of course, I did have one who was kinda cranky in the morning and liked me to put on his shirt when i woke him. I'd then put his boxers, socks and pants on his bed and he'd finish. I'm sure some might cringe at a mother putting on the t- shirt of an 8 yr old, but it made him happy and it got our day off to a non-cranky start. Now he's older and hasn't asked me to help him get dressed in years. :LOL In fact, i can't remember the last time I helped anyone put anything on.

But I don't have any problem saying 'Come get these coats, shoes, backpacks, toys etc out of the kitchen right now. Every one of you has something in the kitchen that belongs in the cubbies" . That just doesn't upset me to say that, and none of the kids seem perturbed by it, either. Maybe they all don't come running breathlessly to clear it out, but they do come. If a child or two has a lot to carry, I will help him/her. Or I will ask a sib to lend a hand depending on what I am doing. I am not doing guilt or shame, I'm simply saying that there is a pile of stuff in the kitchen that does not belong there and I suppose my tone does indicate annoyance, which maybe makes them come quicker.







: But I am not going to hide the factthat it's frustrating to walk into a kitchen to cook and not be able to see the cutting board for the stuff. I might say to the younger ones "If you leave this here, it could get something spilled on it and be runied". Or "If your shoes are in your cubby, you won't have to look for them later". No humilation, just facts.

Sometimes, too, I will tell my oldest that I'll pay him $10 to mow the lawn. He's never once said no, because he wants the $10. If he did say no, i'd do it, or my dh would. I will let you know if he ever turns down the money. lol Of course, he helped me dig out my garden beds, which took a couple of hours and he did that just beause I asked if he would help. No money involved, just a request.

Maybe all those years of being nice to them and helping them has helped that. But no way would I feel bad about telling a kid to please go pick up all artwork that is strewn all over the living room floor. Not "Come here, you little brat- this place is a mess . I can't trust you to take care of anything, can I? " More like "Girl, these papers are everywhere and the dogs are going to tear them to pieces. Here, you get those and I'll get these". I also don't have a problem saying "I am vaccuuuuummmmming tommorow, please pick all the game pieces up off the floor so they don't get sucked up into the vaaacccuuumm".

My kids are too old and too smart for me to have to dance around whether the stuff of 6 people strewn all over the house is a problem at times. I mean sometimes it's just "Let's pick all this crap up- the place is a mess. Pretty soon none of us will be able to find squat".


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

My son doesn't pick up his toys. If I ask him, he says "You do it." If I leave them out and let him see how difficult it is to navigate around them because people trip on them or get hurt stepping on them, he just goes outside to play. I've struggled with this. I'll periodically talk about the toy situation with him when it comes up, but it doesn't make much of a difference. I'm forever confiscating his Legos. He'll go for a week without playing with them even though they are his favorite toys. Next time I bring them out, he won't dump them for up to two weeks and then one day he'll be feeling grumpy or mad at me and dump them all over the floor and spread them around. I can't just leave them there. I try to enlist his help in picking them up but his response is always "You do it." I really don't like this situation and I'm sure he knows it. I'm working on it though. *sigh*

One thing I've figured out is that we all tend to have certain types of chores that we don't mind doing and certain ones we hate or love. I've discovered that Skanda really likes wiping down surfaces like the bathroom sink/counter, dining room and living room tables and putting dishes away. He also likes to help cook and sort and put away laundry. He's good at putting dishes away and putting his movies back in the movie case. He's also a good baby entertainer when I'm busy. He's very proud of his big brother role. I've sort of given up on my expectation that if he played with toys, he needs to put HIS toys away. I can quickly pick up toys in the evening when I tidy up. He helps all throughout the day in many other ways. He just hates picking up his toys. And when I get irritated with him for not picking them up, it turns into a power struggle and then he makes sure he doesn't do it.

Also, I don't really command my kids and expect obedience. Or at least I don't think I do. If it's time to go, I don't tell them to put their shoes on, I announce what we are doing and remind them that we put shoes on before we go. Nadia gets herself ready way before everyone and sort of goes around reminding us that it's time to go. Skanda puts it off until he hears us loading up in the car and then suddenly he wants help tying his shoes, etc. It just works out.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I think it's important to invite children to help and make helping accessible to them. Often it would be faster for us to do it, but it's important to make kids feel needed and therefore cut off pieces of work for them where they can feel confident doing it and proud for having done it.

Complaining when they don't do stuff and doing it ourselves undermines that. By complaining, we say "you're being lazy"- which may translate in their brains to "I'm lazy." Then they see us do the thing much faster than they would have done it themselves and they think, "and I'm useless at helping as well. Mommy might as well do it because I'm incompetant."

Just a thought.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I used to struggle with this. OK, I still do, but I had a breakthrough moment a couple months ago. I thought to myself, why the heck does it matter so much if I'm the one picking up the blocks? Ds can and does wash the breakfast dishes and he's thrilled to do it. He loves to help fold laundry most days, to sweep, to help me dust. He IS contributing. He has a strong, innate drive to contribute. Is it really important that he contribute in the way that I dictate?

I think it would be a sad day for our family if each of us insisted on only being responsible for "messes" that they had made as an individual and tasks that only benefitted themselves. DH washes the dishes that we all eat off of, I wash the laundry we all wear and use and when the living room floor gets picked up we all enjoy the benefits of that too. When I was very depressed recently and couldn't do much beyond get dressed and fix food for the kids, DH picked up the slack on the laundry and other chores I usually do. When DH got the flu, I washed the dishes and cleaned the bathroom. I can't imagine either of us, in those situations, saying "Nope. That's YOUR job."

Is it more important for me to insist Ds pick up the toys because it's "his responsibility" or is it more important to model for him that we are part of an interlinking, fluid circle of help and benefit, that we work together as a family to balance out the workload?


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipperump-a-zoomum*
The thing is, isn't it all really optional? I mean, there might be consequences, but there is still choice, iykwim?

I guess I just feel that the whole, "I told you to do it, and I expect you to do it" attitude leads to a whole lot of power struggle.

Kaly


LOL - as optional as speeding around here. Yeah, you can do it but you'll get caught and get in big trouble! LOL!!

No, there are things that are not optional around here. Yeah, they can decide not to do it but that's not a choice they want to make and they know it because of past consequences.

Ann


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
I used to struggle with this. OK, I still do, but I had a breakthrough moment a couple months ago. I thought to myself, why the heck does it matter so much if I'm the one picking up the blocks? Ds can and does wash the breakfast dishes and he's thrilled to do it. He loves to help fold laundry most days, to sweep, to help me dust. He IS contributing. He has a strong, innate drive to contribute. Is it really important that he contribute in the way that I dictate?

I think it would be a sad day for our family if each of us insisted on only being responsible for "messes" that they had made as an individual and tasks that only benefitted themselves. DH washes the dishes that we all eat off of, I wash the laundry we all wear and use and when the living room floor gets picked up we all enjoy the benefits of that too. When I was very depressed recently and couldn't do much beyond get dressed and fix food for the kids, DH picked up the slack on the laundry and other chores I usually do. When DH got the flu, I washed the dishes and cleaned the bathroom. I can't imagine either of us, in those situations, saying "Nope. That's YOUR job."

Is it more important for me to insist Ds pick up the toys because it's "his responsibility" or is it more important to model for him that we are part of an interlinking, fluid circle of help and benefit, that we work together as a family to balance out the workload?

Sounds like my house. I'm not supposed to be lifting heavy things because I had reconstructive surgery on my perineum. Dimitrius does all the heavy stuff like the putting the water jug in the water cooler and emptying the trash. He also does dog poop duty and I change poopy diapers. He doesn't mind dog poop and I don't mind baby poop.
If everyone does the jobs that they don't mind doing, it seems there isn't much left to divide up. He does mopping and vacuuming, the kids wipe surfaces and help sweep up the dirt pile, I do laundry, etc.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

First and foremost in my parenting style is to avoid power struggles at all costs. I believe they are detrimental for a number of reasons. 1) They are a waste of time and energy. 2) Little issues become huge issues. 3) Kids go on the defensive, so that their natural inclinations to be helpful, to please their parents, get lost in their drive to "win". It is this latter point that is particularly important because I believe when this happens, then you are stuck in a situation where you *have* to make kids "do as they are told" because they are far less likely to do it of their own accord.

We do have certain "rules" in our house, albeit very few. For example, when DD wants to play with something, she has to put the previous toy(s) away. Sometimes we aren't there to remind her, and that's okay. Sometimes she just does it on her own. Usually she asks to play with something, and we say "okay, but we need to clean up the trains first". 9 times out of 10 she just happily does it. I think this is because we have never pushed her. When we started the "rule" we always did it with her, and usually she helped, sometimes she'd just say no. That was okay. But with repitition she got used the idea. I suppose one could say it's a "habit", but I don't know if that's the right description. It's just "the way things are done" and since we've never had a power struggle over it, she complies pretty much all the time. When she doesn't do it, we'll do it and just let her know it would be nice if she could help next time. I don't consider that a guilt trip. And I think that, because she naturally wants to please us (and hasn't been put off that track by a defensive mindset), this is enough for her to know that it's "right" to pick up the toys. And when I say "right" I mean that in an internally "feels good" kind of way, not a "those are my morals" kind of way. A kid in defensive mode can't care about how you feel when they don't help. And they can't find the internal motivation to do it b/c they have this feeling of being on the "other side" from you.

At my DD's age (3) there really isn't anything I expect her to do "on command" all the time. And, like others have said, she really does do things most of the time when asked, so it isn't an issue we feel needs pursuing. In fact, we feel that the very reason DD is so "obedient" most of the time is because we have never made an issue out of things.

When she is older, there will be certain responsibilities, but I will get her input into these things in the context of the tasks themselves. So, I might say that I don't want to have to do all the cleaning myself and I'd like her to pick some tasks she would like to do. Again, this won't be a question of "do as you are told" but rather "this is what you suggested, what we agreed on".


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
In fact, we feel that the very reason DD is so "obedient" most of the time is because we have never made an issue out of things.

Interesting. Just speculating here, but I imagine that if you talked about this to someone with a "spirited" or "challenging" child, someone who held the same parenting philosophies that you do, they would tell you that the reason your daughter is so "obedient" is because that's her temperament.

My kids have very different personalities (in some ways, although in other ways they are very similar). My son drops whatever he is doing and runs to help clean up the moment it's suggested. If there is going to be reticence at a certain time, it will be my daughter showing it. Granted, my son only came to us 6 months ago, so I don't know whether it's just his personality or whether he was "trained" in the orphanage to obey, but I do know that it's just my daughter's temperamant (just like her mom!!) to question and argue. I really, wholeheartedly believe that if I didn't "require" my daughter to do certain things to help out, she just wouldn't. Not that she's bad or lazy or anything like that. She's delightful and creative and extremely intelligent. I would not describe her as spirited or challenging. She's just very independent, just like her mom!! She has her own agenda. My mom helped guide my agenda and helped me learn to consider others' needs in very concrete ways. I do the same for my daughter. I believe that's what my daughter needs.

I don't think that one style of parenting works for all kids.

Namaste!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I have a 'highly sensitive child' who can't tolerate constant noises or nagging at all. I find said child is very easy going when not pushed. Dc is extremly sweet and helpful, but can meltdown if feels pushed into a corner or engaged in a power struggle. Commands, demands etc make dc feel helpless and anxious. I think this child had the good sense to be born into a family who knew that authoritarian parenting would have made a wreck of such a tender personality. What looks like 'Stubborness' in one family, looks like sensitivity in another.

Temperament does matter, but not always in the way we think.

edited for spelling


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I really, wholeheartedly believe that if I didn't "require" my daughter to do certain things to help out, she just wouldn't. Not that she's bad or lazy or anything like that. She's delightful and creative and extremely intelligent. I would not describe her as spirited or challenging. She's just very independent, just like her mom!! She has her own agenda. My mom helped guide my agenda and helped me learn to consider others' needs in very concrete ways. I do the same for my daughter. I believe that's what my daughter needs.

I tend to disagree with your posts in general, as I don't do thinks the same way- but like you said, one style of parenting does not work for all kids.
The thing that stands out to me is your childrens ages- 2, and 3. When I read things like the above I automatically picture a MUCH older child. IMO a three year old SHOULD have her own agenda. You're probably right. If you didn't require her to do stuff, she'd probably choose to hang out and be...3!
I delight in NOT pushing MY agenda on my children, as I WANT them to grow to be thier own person. I respect who they are as people. Both of my daughters (and my son actually) fit the discription above, all 3 of them help out around the house because it's thier house too. They never have looked at me and said "no" to doing thier part around here. It's not cause I started 'em young- I would never have chores of a two year old. Not that I don't think they are capable, I just really want my children to be children- you only get to do that once. So for instance, at 2 I cleaned their room, put the dishes up for them, helped them with picking up toys etc (they often helped cause it's fun to help, but not because I required them to)...at 9 she does most everything herself- not because I forced her to , or shamed her if she didn't, but because as a 9 year old she wants to do for herself and her family, because she is not a baby. My assumption of my children is that they will want to be productive members of our family because we love eachother. So far so good.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree with CMB's post a lot. I think we expect far too much out of children sometimes... again, as cmb said, it is not that they aren't capable-- it is rather, should we expect them to participate in the family as much as we do as adults? I mean, I can't reiterate enough...and I know I will get the "you don't have kids, you just wait" ... but I honestly never in my whole life, ever... have met so much as ONE child who refused to do ANYTHING... they may not do everything all the time, but I have yet to meet a child who flat our refused to help ever, with anything, at any time....

Children (and people in general) do things at their own pace, and in their own time... you can't expect one 4 year old to help as much as another... you can't expect a 4 year old to consistantly do the same chores at the same pace and rate of success.. you just can't expect the same level of responsibility out of a child as you can an adult, or even teenager...

Again, no one should be a martyr... and yes, there are some *basic* things I would expect from my child.. basically, to help sometimes. That is it from a small child... to help sometimes. I am their parent, it is my JOB to take care of them-- no, not be their *slave* but yeah, to take care of them... and part of taking care of them is to do most of the work as it relates to daily "doing stuff"...

It really irks me some of the posters who are like "I DEMAND my child do this or they lose privledges etc".. and other seemingly NON-gd ways of forcing... yes forcing, them to help and to do things they don't want to do. To me that is completely ineffective.. sure, much like something like spanking, you will have a child who "obeys" (only for so long)... but they will be resenting you, resenting having to do chores, resenting their place and responsibility in the home, waiting for the day they don't have to do sh*t anymore, and feeling like your approval depends on how obediently they put away their stuff (or whatever).. I mean, is that the goal here?

Everyone I think wants their children to learn a sense of pride, or desire to help in the home or be part of the family in that way and that is great... but "demanding" your 4 year old clean their room or else they don't get dessert or whatever is ridiculous in my opinion... my husband is 35 and I am 28 and we still help eachother with our various household *chores* etc and he doesn't "take away my privledges" if I don't feel like doing the dishes one night... *sheesh*


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
. I really, wholeheartedly believe that if I didn't "require" my daughter to do certain things to help out, she just wouldn't.

Maybe she wouldn't do the things that you think she should be doing, but she might surprise you by doing other super-helpful things! My dd is super strong-willed as well, and that is a big reason I don't want chores to become a power struggle. Children are naturally social and want to be helpful and needed--like the big people. Dd has discovered things that she can do for the family--that she sees clearly need to be done--and does them. And she is super proud of it







She enjoys being helpful, and I don't want helping to *become* a chore, kwim? I want her to continue to enjoy it.

That said, I completely agree that different approaches work for different kids/families. This is just what has worked best for our will-of-iron dd.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

ITa with the Captain....

One other thing. I'm not a fan of the whole idea that kids living with us is some kind of priveledge or something they have to "pay" for.

It's a LAW that you have to take care of your kids till they are 18. You can go through paperwork to give them up- but you're not allowed to turn them out into the street, and I would hope and pray that my kids would never, ever worry that I would do that, or that their living in my home is contingent upon them doing certain things.

I know no one has suggested kicking kids out for not helpin, but I do cringe when talk is thrown around suggesting that kids are lucky to live with us. That's like saying my husband is lucky I don't cheat on him.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

My main man Alfie talks about have age-appropriate expectations, too. I think there's a lot of fear wrapped up in that one sometimes - if I don't insist that my child clean up her stuff now, she'll be one of those 10 or 15 year olds who refuse to help. I think maybe the opposite is true - if you insist now, then when your child is old enough to effectively resist he will.

I had people at LLL meetings telling me that Rain was "spirited" before she was 2 years old, because she did so clearly have her own will and her own agenda. Even deciding to work with that agenda resulted in some pretty rocky years - I can't imagine if I had tried to go against it.

Dar


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

BTW- I'm with UUmom- my kid is the same way.


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## Pam_and_Abigail (Dec 2, 2002)

So what is age-appropriate?

I am not sure where I am in all of this, but I want to be like Dar and UnschoolingMama (and I'm just getting into "Punished by Rewards", btw)

In reality, I tend to ask my dd1 and expect her to obey, and I am starting to see power struggles come up. She's just past 2 1/2. I have recently realized it is ok for her to say no to me, and in fact that it is normal, a part of her separating from me. A lot has been expected of her since her sister arrived, and I am trying to let up on this. I recall a day about a month ago when I asked/told her to put away a absket of luandry of hers and she protested by dumping it all over the floor, and I got upset with her for it. Later, I reflected, and realized I was expecting too much of her. She has a beautiful inner desire to be helpful, and will have a tantrum if we don't let her help when she wants to (so we've made sure to include her).


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
...if you talked about this to someone with a "spirited" or "challenging" child, someone who held the same parenting philosophies that you do, they would tell you that the reason your daughter is so "obedient" is because that's her temperament.

You're absolutely right. I can't know if this is the result of our parenting, or just her innate temperament. And, in fact, none of us can really know.

In light of this, I set boundaries for my parenting and work within them. This gives me guidelines of what I will and won't do, but some flexibility to allow for tempermental differences in my kids. For example, my DD has responded very well to using countdowns for transitions. As in "Five more minutes and then we have to leave the playground". We started this at age 18 months, and up until about six months ago it was pretty much failsafe. Now we're finding it isn't working as often because she is getting past that; she's more mature and wants to have more input into things. I don't consider this a failure of hte method; she's simply outgrowing it. So lately I've been taking to discussing with her things that might help her get ready to do what comes next, or leave the activity, and that seems to be working really well. I don't consider it a failure, just that she is moving into a different stage. But note that I haven't suddenly gotten more punitive or demanding or coercive.

So, if my son doesn't turn out to be as amenable to helping out as my DD is, despite our removing power struggles from the issue, I may have to find a different approach. But it won't be to "make him do as I say". I simply don't feel good about that approach. I will have to find an alternative approach that still fits within my parenting ideals. It's a challenge sometimes, to be sure. Especially when my natural instinct is to "think punitive". But it's also extremely rewarding. And I like a challenge!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
if I don't insist that my child clean up her stuff now, she'll be one of those 10 or 15 year olds who refuse to help. I think maybe the opposite is true - if you insist now, then when your child is old enough to effectively resist he will.









Who among us wouldn't? (There are exceptions here, as with anything...) I think most of us, deep down, want to do things our own way, and on our own timetable. Of course living with other people tweaks that a bit, but the desire for that kind of freedom is still there. When someone insists, or orders often the first instinct is to resist strongly... at least for me.

Quote:

I had people at LLL meetings telling me that Rain was "spirited" before she was 2 years old, because she did so clearly have her own will and her own agenda. Even deciding to work with that agenda resulted in some pretty rocky years - I can't imagine if I had tried to go against it.
Same experience with Ds when we was little. "Spirited" was the nicer of the terms I heard







. These days the kids sometimes are referred to as rebels or some such thing because they are very strong in what they want to do and why.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Maybe she wouldn't do the things that you think she should be doing, but she might surprise you by doing other super-helpful things!

There were a whole bunch of people I wanted to quote, but for brevity's sake I just picked this one to say







:

It's a difficult, strange, fascinating journey for me to let go of my iron control over HOW Ds helps out.

FTR, he is very spirited.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
Is it more important for me to insist Ds pick up the toys because it's "his responsibility" or is it more important to model for him that we are part of an interlinking, fluid circle of help and benefit, that we work together as a family to balance out the workload?









ITA that the focus should be on the latter; balance and being able to fluidly give and take.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
IMO a three year old SHOULD have her own agenda.

I guess that's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think that families should have a family agenda, not each member having their own agenda.

Quote:

I delight in NOT pushing MY agenda on my children, as I WANT them to grow to be thier own person. I respect who they are as people.
I hope you are not implying that I delight in pushing my agenda on my children, or that I don't want them to grow to be their own people, or that I don't respect them. All of those ideas are false. As I have stated before on this thread and on several others, on the occasions that my kids don't do what's expected of them, I do not make a big deal about it. I am not authoritarian with my kids. Because my kids have been raised with the expectation that they help out, they do. It's not a weird idea to them.

Quote:

but they will be resenting you, resenting having to do chores, resenting their place and responsibility in the home, waiting for the day they don't have to do sh*t anymore, and feeling like your approval depends on how obediently they put away their stuff (or whatever)
OUCH! I was raised in a home where I was required to do things around the house. I NEVER felt that. I did not always like having to do what I had to do, but I don't always like to do what I have to do now. That doesn't mean that I did or do resent my parents or think that they only liked me when I did what they asked. I grew up to be very responsible, not rebelliously irresponsible. Really, now, can we go easy on the HUGE, HUGE assumptions and speaking for other people?

Quote:

For example, my DD has responded very well to using countdowns for transitions. As in "Five more minutes and then we have to leave the playground".
See, now this did not work AT ALL for my daughter. I tried this (because it's supposed to make transitions easier for children) and what happened was my daughter started throwing huge tantrums when I started the countdown. I think she felt like I was giving her a deadline. What DID work for my daughter would be going to her right when it was time to leave, taking her hand, saying, "It's time to go now, let's say thank you and goodbye," and telling our hosts and friends goodbye. We had mostly cheerful departures with that approach.

Quote:

Is it more important for me to insist Ds pick up the toys because it's "his responsibility" or is it more important to model for him that we are part of an interlinking, fluid circle of help and benefit, that we work together as a family to balance out the workload?
Why can't a family have certain jobs that are usually (but not always, without exception, because, after all, we are a family of people, not robots, and we can be flexible when necessary) one person's responsibility and ALSO work together as a family to balance out the workload? Why must everything be either/or? Why must it be that I demand nothing of my kids and respect them or have certain chores for them and not respect them? Why must it be that the kids help out only when and how they like and we are a family that works together or I tell my kids to do certain things and suddenly we are no longer modeling cooperation?

Why are GD adherents so rigid in the perceptions of what "right" parenting is? Really, throughout this thread I have been accused (either directly or by implication) of some pretty awful things in regard with my relationship to my kids!

I'm still uncertain why so many people here think that there is only one right way to parent all children and that if you don't parent your children that way, in light of each child's individual personalities, quirks, strengths, and weaknesses, you somehow don't respect your child or are some sort of authoritarian drill seargent.

I actually started this thread asking what people were hoping their kids would learn via their approach to children's work/chores in the family. Only PaganScribe really responded to that. A lot of people responded by telling me why what I do is wrong and how it will negatively impact my kids. I know what I do works for my kids. I'm sure that what most of you do works for your kids. I know mine, you know yours. I believe that many different styles of parenting can be right.

Namaste!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Absolutely, families can work a lot of different ways.

I can only speak for myself, but if I seem "stuck" on explaining a certain philosophy, it is because I so very often read things--even here on the GD board--that suggest this style will never work....that the kids will never learn to be helpful, that they will be lazy, etc. Our experience has been the opposite, but I guess I'm defensive anyway, lol.

Ya know, this is timely for me, because at dd's recent 4 yo exam, one of the developmental questions the ped asked was "does she clean up her toys?". Well...no! But we do things a different way, kwim? And she helps in so many other ways....and I found myself having to explain this to the ped, and I was annoyed







.


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## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

In our home we are expected to clean up our own messes and put our own stuff away. I had to have it this after ds was born because the girls were constantly leaving their choking hazard items within arms reach. The girls are alos expected to help with certain chores. I honestly don't have the time or energy to it all for them.

They complain and sometimes it would turn into a power struggle, so this is what we did. We made up a chore chart. Each day they have the same list of 10 chores. The chores are making their beds, cleaning up their room, putting their laundry in the hamper, setting the table, clearing the table, putting backpacks and coats away after school and a few more I can't remember right now. Basically their chores are all the fundamental things we would like them to do everyday. Each chore is worth $0.10, so each day they have the potential to earn $1 for allowance. If they don't want to do a chore, then they don't have to. If one dd does not want to clear the dinner dishes, then the second dd has the option of doing it herself and earning the extra $0.10. So, they could earn more than the other by doing extra chores. They also get extra credit for extra things they do on their own. It eliminates the power struggle. I don't care if they don't do it, but they won't earn their full allowance. They have been earning anywhere from $3/week to $5/week, and that's fine with me. This is the money they use to buy whatever they want when we are out. I don't buy anything for them. It has worked very well.

I won't pick up after anyone in my family. I expect everyone to chip in and help out. The girls have always been very independent and I have encouraged it. I only step in when they are really struggling.

We have come to learn that the youngest dd has some frustration issues. She has a tough time switching tasks and gets very frustrated in the process and has a melt down. We are learning to lessen the situations that frustrate her. We are learning to pick our battles and we are trying to be more understanding and not so rigid. Compromises. If they don't want to do a specific chore, that's ok because chances are they will double up on another.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I guess that's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think that families should have a family agenda, not each member having their own agenda.

Funny thing is, as you probably have noticed, often things aren't how we think they _should_ be. They're as they _are_. One of those things is that little kids do have their own agendas. I appreciate that you want to teach your kids that your family works like a team to achieve common goals, but as I'm sure you're aware, they aren't born understanding that -- they do need to be taught it. I think we all agree on that. The disagreement I see is on *how* it's best done.

I'm confused as to how, for instance, the arrangement I described -- chid cooperating voluntarily in a handful of useful tasks throughout each day -- is any less modeling a "family agenda" than a more regimented chore arrangement would be?

Quote:

Why must it be that I demand nothing of my kids and respect them or have certain chores for them and not respect them?
This is a false dichotomy and I haven't seen it presented here by anyone but you. Obviously all of the posters in this thread expect their children to contribute in some way, big or small.

Quote:

Why must it be that the kids help out only when and how they like and we are a family that works together or I tell my kids to do certain things and suddenly we are no longer modeling cooperation?
Another false dichotomy. What some of us _have_ expressed is that we feel, in the long run, letting our children determine when and how to help out is more encouraging of "contributing because it feels right", not "contributing because I have to", and that in our experience it doesn't lessen the amount of age-appropriate contribution from our kids in the short run.

Respectfully, it sounds like you're feeling really defensive here and I don't see what you seem to be seeing on this thread. I've seen a very thoughtful discussion without the negativity you describe.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

No, I don't feel defensive, I feel frustrated. I feel frustrated because I feel like I read a lot of posts in this forum where the underlying assumption is that if it's not done a certain way (which is generally espoused by some of the more prolific and hip posters), it's wrong and damaging to children. I feel frustrated because I feel like many members here get accused of being disrespectful of their children just because they aren't comfortable with a more freewheeling approach to parenting. I feel like the implication has been that if I require that my children do chores, I am somehow less respectful of them than the enlightened parents who don't require that of their kids. I feel like those parents who don't espouse this hip, freewheeling style of parenting are viewed as unenlightened fuddy-duddies who need only to be convinced of the right way, even when these parents feel that their parenting style is successful. I feel like people who post more conservative, for lack of a better word, ideas are frowned upon. I don't think that I set up false dichotomies, I feel that I pointed out that the implications that have been made are not accurate.

Many people here have ideas I learn a lot from. I just don't feel comfortable with or agree with the idea that there is a certain way to parent or parenting philosophy that is better than all others. I'm frustrated because I feel like I am too conservative (in respect to my parenting) for Mothering and too liberal for most other boards, so I don't know where to go to discuss discipline issues.

This thread has probably outlasted its usefulness!









Namaste!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I want to say that I like this thread, that I'm glad you started it, dharmamama, and that I thought the discussion was going along very well. Apparently you are feeling defensive and I'm sorry if I contributed to that. It wasn't my intention to claim that anybody who "requires" that their children do chores is somehow damaging them. Good grief, you seem pretty darn GD to me - I would think what we are discussing here are some of the nuances of GD, not something fundamental like spanking versus age-appropriate correction, kwim? At least, that is what I was getting out of this discussion.

Anyways, I feel like a big source of misunderstanding in this thread revolves around ages. I wouldn't want to be in a family where everybody lives by their own agenda. But I also feel like a 3 year old is really only capable of following their own agenda, and only just at that age where they realize that other family members have them (for example, I would like to just take a break some days and be by myself in another room, but I can't expect my 3 year old to understand that and cooperate upon demand), or that there is an agenda for the family as a unit, though my DH and I try to model that each day, and I think that is how she is learning about that. But she's not at the age where I feel she can or even SHOULD be "doing chores".

As for older children, well I do think they can help out a bit. And as we've all said, few don't help out at all....so what is the point of disagreement? It seems to me, that the point is whether or not you allow your children to pick and choose the tasks they are expected to do, with the goal of contributing to family harmony, or whether you expect them to do a list that you choose for them. I think there are subtle differences in this approach that may or may not have a noticeable effect depending on the context of other family dynmics. But really, I think what it boils down to is a difference in outlook, philosophy. I don't think anybody here is ruining their kids over it.

I do have to say that I bristle at the idea of essentially "paying" my kids to do their chores. My first thought is "I don't get paid!", my second is "what is their motivation?". Are they doing these things to help out, or to get money? Again, these aren't differences that are going to ruin anybody's children, but they speak to the heart of one's parenting philosophies I think. And isn't that what we are discussing here?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I just went back and re-read your OP, dharmamama, and I think it got a little off course, perhaps. I've been known to do that myself.









So, you asked why we picked up after our kids? My first response is: because she's not even 3 yet and I don't expect her to be able to handle such responsibilties on her own.

Then you asked if we didn't think that picking up after them all the time was sending the message that they don't have to do it. Well, so far IME it isn't like that. I'm not picking up after her "all the time". In fact, I'd say that maybe only 1 or 2 out of 10 times I ask her, I end up doing it alone. Most of the time she happily helps me, and once or twice she even does it all on her own. If I ended up having to do it all the time as she gets older, then yes I would consider that a problem.

You also asked if we didn't think that simply stating "I'm not happy about that" was a sort of guilt-tripping, and just a more sublte way of manipulating them into doing their chores. I think I explained this in my first post in this thread: it's not said in a punitive way, I say it rather nicely. I try to label her feelings and mine (if mine aren't too intense for her to handle right now, that is) and I don't think it's a guilt trip to just say "i don't like doing this all on my own".


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks, Piglet. But like I said, I don't feel defensive. It's not that I've come here looking for validation and then felt attacked when not everyone agrees with me. I've just felt frustrated at what feels like a very narrow interpretation of good parenting. I think sometimes people jump on the subtle differences you mentioned and blow them out of proportion.

I guess there are just very, very different perceptions of kids' capabilities, as well. I routinely take "Momma time" during which my kids are responsible for entertaining themselves while I vegetate or take a bath or whatever. I have done it since my daughter was 24 months. She is now 39 months old, and my son is 27 months old. They have no problem with handling "Momma time." (It's brief, 10-20 minutes.)
I'm sure not every kid could accomodate that. Mine can.

Namaste!


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
No, I don't feel defensive, I feel frustrated. I feel frustrated because I feel like I read a lot of posts in this forum where the underlying assumption is that if it's not done a certain way (which is generally espoused by some of the more prolific and hip posters), it's wrong and damaging to children. I feel frustrated because I feel like many members here get accused of being disrespectful of their children just because they aren't comfortable with a more freewheeling approach to parenting. I feel like the implication has been that if I require that my children do chores, I am somehow less respectful of them than the enlightened parents who don't require that of their kids. I feel like those parents who don't espouse this hip, freewheeling style of parenting are viewed as unenlightened fuddy-duddies who need only to be convinced of the right way, even when these parents feel that their parenting style is successful. I feel like people who post more conservative, for lack of a better word, ideas are frowned upon. I don't think that I set up false dichotomies, I feel that I pointed out that the implications that have been made are not accurate.

I hope I didn't contribute to that, dharmamama!

I just want to clarify that I _do_ "require" my son to do chores, and help out -- simply by having the iron expectation that he will, and treating him like I know he's going to do it, so -- most of the time -- he does it. He will tell you flat out "In our house, we have to clean up before we play something new" or "In our house, we don't run inside." It works for my kid; it also works for my big kids (the kids I teach). But I am very, very aware of the fact that I have a VERY easy kid. I am very uncomfortable with the more TCS style parenting (I don't know if that's great terminology, but that's what's coming to me).

I just want you to know that I support your idea that it's possible to be a more "parent in charge" parent and still be completely respectful of your children, and GD.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I guess that's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think that families should have a family agenda, not each member having their own agenda.

No, actually we don't, in another post a few pages back I wrote:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CMB123*
I want my kids to help around the house because they feel like they are part of our family team- not because the team leader is going to let them know they are disappointments or make them feel like crap if they don't. It feels good to help out around the house. I like that they are self motivated to do so.

We just have different methods. ( that particular quote was in responce to someone else saying they wanted their kids to feel bad if they didn't do what they were told-not you)

But overall, after just re reading your OP, I guess I just want to say that there is more than black and white when it comes to this. In your OP you make it sound like if you don't expect your toddlers to obey your instructions to clean up the dinner table, and clean up thier own toys etc.. then your kids will never do it. That's similar to the people who say if you nurse your kid to sleep they will never learn to go to sleep on thier own!
I have always expected that as my kids grow they will take on more and more responsibility on thier own. So far that has worked very well. All of my kids do lots around here, often without being asked.
As you said before, different things work for different people. I'm sharing what works for us.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
No, I don't feel defensive, I feel frustrated. I feel frustrated because I feel like I read a lot of posts in this forum where the underlying assumption is that if it's not done a certain way (which is generally espoused by some of the more prolific and hip posters), it's wrong and damaging to children.

I also hope I am not contributing to this feeling. If so I apologize for that, but not for the views I express. I absolutely do not intend for my posts to sound hostile or what have you. I don't think it's the only way to parent, I think it's the way for ME to parent. (I am not sure who the hip posters are exactly... I kinda think we're all hip :LOL )

Quote:

I feel frustrated because I feel like many members here get accused of being disrespectful of their children just because they aren't comfortable with a more freewheeling approach to parenting. I feel like the implication has been that if I require that my children do chores, I am somehow less respectful of them than the enlightened parents who don't require that of their kids.








If I say that I think something is disrespectful it's because I feel it is. I do not require my children to do chores because it doesn't feel respectful to me. If I post a comment stating that, it's just a statement about what I feel personally...not how I think you must feel about it.

Quote:

I feel like those parents who don't espouse this hip, freewheeling style of parenting are viewed as unenlightened fuddy-duddies who need only to be convinced of the right way, even when these parents feel that their parenting style is successful.
If your parenting works well for you more power to it







. I, and I hope others, do not parent in any particular way because it's hip or free-wheeling. I hope we do it however we do it because we feel it's right and good.

Quote:

I feel like people who post more conservative, for lack of a better word, ideas are frowned upon.
I try to seperate people from the issues... a complicated thing to say the least. I am not conservative (probably by any stretch of the imagination...) but other people have the right to be, and I still enjoy talking to them. (Hell I even love some of them IRL







) But for the purposes of conversation on parenting I will probably rarely agree with them, and that's fine too. FWIW, I enjoy reading your posts.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Well not for us in the about 8 years I have been doing this with my three.

And I do tell them that "I don't like it" when they don't sdo something I have told them to do. But NO other consequence.

I don't say those words in some overwhelming, mad or sad voice. It's matter a fact. But I have no problem with them feeling guilty for failing to live up to their responsbilities.
That is what I want. I want them to feel badly if they fail to live up to the things that they owe to others. That is what a conscience is all about.

And as time has moved on, I have fairly little need to say this. I dont' put huge responsibilites on my dd's. But they (for the most part) live up to those responsibilites because I have projected a "this is what I expect of you" attitude.


HeyMaya, sorry i've been away from the computer for awhile. I didn't mean what you were describing- I meant the attitude that something isn't a choice, you'd better do it - or else. I think a lot of the "it's not a choice" leads to power struggles, but I don't see what you have described as being presented as not a choice. They have a choice to do what you ask, and if they don't then they know that you're not happy about it, right?
Sorry for the late, probably off topic at this point, post.
back to read rest of thread.
kaly


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I've been away for a few days and this thread has grown quite a bit! I already posted, but wanted to add a couple of things.

It is pretty much the expectation in our house that when DH or I ask DD to do something ("ask" meaning make a request, not offer a choice), she will do it. However, we don't have too many things that she always has to do "or else," unless you count self-care things such as getting dressed or attending to her personal hygiene. Some nights I ask her to help set or clear the table, some nights I don't. It depends on how much help I really need and what she's involved in at the time. If I'm preparing dinner at a leisurely pace and she's happily drawing a picture, I'll do it myself. Same goes for cleaning up her room before bedtime. It's never too messy anyway, and depending on how much time she has, or how busy I am, sometimes I will help her, sometimes she'll do it alone, and sometimes I'll even say, "Hey, tell you what, I'll clean up all these markers while you go brush your teeth."

It's all about us working together to achieve a common goal, whether it's keeping the house tidy, or getting to school on time, or whatever. I don't feel the need to have a strict list of chores for her in order to foster a sense of responsibility. I think every child is different. If I had a child who was especially resistant to any kind of chores, perhaps I'd have to be more regimented, but she's not like that.

Oh, she also knows that she is allowed to respond with a reason why she would prefer not to do the requested task right away or maybe not at all: "Mommy, I'm in the middle of this book and I really want to finish; do I have to set the table now?" My answer might be one of the following:

"Yes, sweetie, Daddy will be home for dinner any second and I really need your help, so why don't you finish it after dinner,"

"Okay, it can wait a few minutes, go ahead and finish first, but then come right downstairs,"

Or, "Okay, that's fine, I can set it myself."

It's a pretty relaxed system!


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I admit I did not read the entire thread, but these are my thoughts...

I grew up in a house where my mom did almost all the household "chores" and complained about it. That didn't make them look too appealing. Not that mopping or doing dishes are big thrills, but if you b*tch and moan about doing them, IMHO your kids will see them in a negative light.

I am hoping we won't use the word "chores" in our house. DD helps with lots of things whether we really want her to or not, lol - mopping, sweeping, laundry. We always let her help if she wants to. Likewise if she spills something or makes a mess, we sometimes help her clean it up (and she will often go get a towel and do it herself, without prompting).

If my DH accidentally made a huge mess or left out a bunch of books or something, I'd help him clean it up - I wouldn't "make" him do it himself. I do pick up his dirty socks that can never find the hamper, and he removes all the dirty dishes from my office that for some reason I can't move into the kitchen

So far we have only had issues with DD when we've made it a struggle; that is, we've tried to *force* her to help. Doesn't work and just makes everyone frustrated. I would rather just put away the blocks, or whatever, and not make it seem like a big deal. DD is much more likely to help if I'm low-key about it, because she hasn't internalized the idea that putting away blocks (or whatever) is a "chore" and it's not really fun (because mom complains whenever she has to do it).

Hope some of this made sense. BTW I'm not a neatnik by any stretch of the imagination.


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## beaner&tiegs (Aug 3, 2003)

Right now my kids are pretty young, so chores haven't become a huge deal yet. I myself would resent it if I *had* to do stuff, basically if J or I feel like we want a cleaner house, it gets cleaned up, or if we're really crazy busy, it's less clean. I'll ask Kea to put stuff away, or to help set the table, and she's usually more than happy to do it. Sometimes she gets really frustrated because she can't find something in her room, and I talk to her about that is why many people like to have neat houses, it makes it much easier to find things and things are less likely to get broken, etc. It also helps that J and I have different tolerances - I can't stand it when the bathroom is gross and stinky so I'm much more likely to scrub that more often - J can't stand clutter and will often come home from work and do a big clean of the living room.

As the kids get older, I imagine we'll imitate what my mom did - there were four of us kids (9-16) in the house, we'd sit down with a chart and all the chores that needed to be done. We could all pick what we wanted, when we wanted to do it, and if there was something that noone wanted to do we were free to brainstorm how it got done - ie scrubbing the bathroom, which we all agreed we could take turns and do once a month, or whatever. We were then free to trade stuff up, and we all agreed that it worked best to have certain things done within a certain time frame (ie dishes washed and put away after dinner, so there were clean dishes in the morning for us all - bathroom scrubbed once a week as it got quite dirty with four of us using it, etc) - there seemed to be very little tension about it, as we were all a part of the discussion and got to pick how we wanted to contribute. And often I'm sure we came up with easy solutions that my mom wouldn't have thought of on her own.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

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Dang......I needed alot of popcorn to make it through this thread!!!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I skimmed the last few pages, and I agree it sounds like one issue at hand is the AGE of the kid. It's a little futile and kind of sets me up for a power struggle when I expect daily chores or clean-up (even of their own messes) from the under 5-6 age. It's a gradual improvement, but for those ages, we just work together, ask for help, wait for the willingness. Some days they want to help a lot, other days not so much.

My older boys now have daily jobs though, relating to their own messes as well as family household stuff - laundry and dishes, etc. They have a say in how they help but not whether. I'd like to say they have a natural desire to pitch in, but they don't. They hate housework like most people do. We try to make it more fun, but some things just have to get done.

mary poppins i'm sadly not.

eta, to be fair, the boys are wild about helping with the baby. A lot of times, they take care of him while I do the housework, and that's fine with me. Pitching in is pitching in.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
As my 7yo gets older he seems to understand more and more that the quickest way to get something done is to do it yourself. I don't punish him by making him wait, but the reality is that he has to most of the time.

As one of 7, this was my personal experience growing up. Mom was always willing to help but we had to wait til she had time. I turned out great and have a wonderful relationship with Mom (as do my siblings).

We did have weekly chores growing up and the first kid ready to work got to choose which chores to do which was incentive to get cracking! Door-knob duty (cleaning all the door-knobs in the house with windex), sweeping the steps, vacuuming and tidying a particular room, putting away dishes, cleaning mirrors were the types of things on the list. Mom would break it up into major and minor jobs and kids would pick one of each.

If I required my almost 4 ds to do things, it would certainly turn into a power struggle because of his temperament. It might work with an easier going child. We tend to have family clean up time which works well because it's fun to work together.


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