# how do you handle behavior that is just plain not safe



## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

Hi! please please please....i'm not looking for information on why gentle discipline is the correct choice or why it is bad to spank....i already agree with you all on that.....believe me I do....I just never thought I would find myself in this position and I don't know what to do.

DD is extremelely high needs, spirited, high energy, strong willed....whatever you want to call it, that's her. Recently she has been taking to behaviors that are dangerous to herself and also dangerous to my DS (6months old). She has been hitting him with her hands, with toys, with books....jumping on him, folding him in half...oh you name it, she does it. Ok...she also jumps on the 160 pound dog who on 99.99% of the occassions is very patient with her....i'm just thinking its not too safe. She gets very very very very wild. I don't know if any one has experienced this but she actually seems to get WORSE with the negative behaviors when we ask her to stop...ok, so ignore the negatives right? no....not when she has actually caused brusies and bumps to my son, not when she's at risk of losing erh face to the dog. So, I ask her to stop nicely....about 100 times.....maybe even 1000, i start to get irritated, it escalates...i yell








.......she whacks Ben over the head with a toy so hard that he has a goose egg.....i do something very UNgentle after that







: .....honestly, I don't know what to do. I know you should HIT and say don't hit....but what on earth am I supposed to do. People have suggested that perhaps she is jealous and needs some individual time....yes, i believe she is jealous, but I have gone out of my way to give her individual time....to the expense of my infant son...who i don't pay as much attention to as I would like because of her....so short of giving him up, i don't know that I COULD pay her more attention...she participates in his care....diapers, baths...tries to breastfeed him etc. etc. etc....and she still acts like this.
What I'm asking is....what are EFFECTIVE & gentle ways to deter your toddler from causing bodily injury to a sibling and/or herself.
Sorry, if this is a little disjointed, but I have a hard time putting all my thoughts together because she has me so stressted out....
please don't flame me for saying i've been ungentle with her....i'm just at my wits end with seeing her injure my son.
TIA for any help.
Amy


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

there's another thread here about a very similar matter. Basically, your first job is to protect your baby. many ideas in the other thread on how to do that. you mustn't let them be alone, keep the baby out of reach. ditto with the dog. keep the dog and your child separated. supervise or separate at all times until this issue is resolved.

next is to determine the underlying causes of your older child's behaviour. it's not enough to just "spend more time" with a jealous siblign. they need to work through their feelings. i recommend the book "siblings wihtout rivalry" to address these issues specifically. or maybe your child needs an outlet for excess energy. i'm sure others here can give suggestions on that, too.

bottom line is the hitting is just a symptom of something else. chances are she feels pretty horrible about hitting, too, but has no other skills to help her cope with her feelings. that is where you come in. she needs to learn to identify her feelings, they need to be validated so she knows she isn't bad for having these thoughts. she needs help to redirect her emotions and energies in more constructive, acceptable ways. punishment will just make her feel worse about herself.

i'm pretty sure the thread was started by FreeThinker. take a read.

and also








it can be really, really hard to see your baby getting hurt.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

No flames from me -- the only time I ever hit my son was when he had harmed my daughter. Its that mother bear thing gone wild.

If I'm reading this right, she's about 2 1/2, right? At this age, just about nothing you tell them will have any impact (well, "you may have ice cream" gets some attention). You need to do several things in order to keep everyone safe, most of all be proactive and change the situations that lead to problems. Expecting her to respond to verbal cues and requests is too much for her age.

My first step, until I got things under control, is not to let her anywhere near the baby unless you have total control over the situation. For example, let her touch the baby only when you are holding him. Forget about having her help you -- that works for older kids but not for toddlers so much. Unless you can completely supervise, make sure she can't get to the baby (a sling or other carrier is great for this).

As much as possible, try to figure out what sets her off and avoid those things or find a different way of handling it. I know when my daughter was an infant, my son would deliberately pee in the corners every time I nursed her. I finally decided that videos were less of a problem than pee and let him turn on a video when she nursed.

If she does get to close to the baby and things start to go sour, maybe give her one change to be gentle and demonstrate what "gentle" means by taking her hands and physically directing her. If things don't improve, then you need to either remove her or the baby -- you should never get to repeating yourself 100 times because after about the second you need to change things and physically redirect her. The same thing applies to the dog -- after the first time she is overly active with the dog, demonstrate how she should behave. If it doesn't change, direct her to a totally different activity, probably in a different room for the dog.

One on one time is good and you should definitely keep it up. I don't know about your circumstances, but I would think that as much as possible giving her chances to run and play and use all of her energy are good. I found that park trips with baby in a sling were a godsend at about this point. Anything to get my son out and running around were good.

If all of this is more than you can handle, would you consider finder her something like part-time preschool or Mom's day out or somewhere that she could go and have her own activities and friends and give you a bit of time with the baby? Sometimes we try to do more than we are capable of and that benefit's no one in the end.


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## saritasmile (Sep 5, 2004)

I'm still learning about lots of things and while i don't have any great advice at this point, i at least wanted to give you a


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

thanks for all the responses. I just ordered and received today -- "easy to love, difficult to discipline" "love rituals" & "positive discipline a-z" I hope maybe there will be something useful in those books........The only problem with the advice about keeping baby away from toddler is that when they are playing alone, she seems to do fine. He will sit on the floor and fiddle with the baby toys and she will sit there with him and make him laugh. If I come over, that's when the problems start. Most of the bruises have occurred when I'm breastfeeding. Imagine a woman attempting to breastfeed a 24 pound 6 month old while blocking her wild hyper toddler from whacking the baby's head with a toy..........hmmmmm....i've been wondering why he's getting up to eat all night all of sudden, i think i might have figured it out......eating during the day is dangerous for him.
I really think she's jealous of my time with him...i just don't know what to do about that. I almost feel like I don't know him very well, because she doesn't allow me to pay attention to him (whenever i do, she concocts an emergency)....has anyone experienced this?
Amy


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

Don't know if you checked the thread Piglet68 mentioned, but I posted there and just wanted to give you a link to something I wrote about a very similar experience. This is so hard, but after I started addressing the feelings behind the behavior, things got so much better!

http://birthinginfinite.com/mothering/discipline.html


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

I just went and read the other thread and also the link that you mentioned. Great story by the way!!! I think I may check out the book siblings without rivalrly. I'm currently reading the "easy to love, difficult to discipline" and I'm feeling very very positive about it, so I'm hoping her ideas will help. It also helps to know that you're not the only one with a toddler beating up on a baby. So hard to go through!!
Amy


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

roseselene- let us know how it goes.


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## trimomma (Jun 1, 2004)

I am still learning how to have a GD approach with my children. I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you.


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## madhousemommy (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote " because she doesn't allow me to pay attention to him" Roseselene
Who is in charge here?
This was very intriguing and caught my eye.....I totally beleive in GD (i come from an abusive family)....however I see that most GD parents end up in a huge power stuggle with their kids and the kids getting the upper hand.......i come across a book (yeah I know..







another book) with a pretty catchy title, so I picked it up..."Wimpy Parents, How not to raise a Brat" It has helped us so much, mostly with paying attention to those lil cues of kids about to have a meltdown. I have a 14yr, 2 3/4 and 1 yr.old and it spans from toddler to teenager in the book. I would have to be completely honest I bought it for the lil ones but it has helped with the teenager the most!! I WAS a Wimpy Parent!!!!!








YOur lil girl is way outta control and is a danger to herself and the baby....my girlfriend has this same situation going on and quite frankly I do not even go to their house anymore cuz her oldest uses mine as a bean bag! KWIM?...What I see is a alot of "talk to your child" with no back up with consequences. As one other parent told me once...it doesn't feel good to be out of control...








Just my .02 cents worth
Good luck mama








Val


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

The problem with saying the I'm allowing her to be in control is twofold. I'm feeding my son.....she does something completely outrageously dangerous...i can't ignore it...she's going to injure herself, i have to get up and tend to her....so yes, SHE is in control of that situation by figuring out what is dangerous and what mommy and daddy won't ignore.
secondly.....i'm not trying to "be in control" i'm trying to raise a child who is in control of herself. I'm trying to teach her the correct way to handle situations and how to be a responsible person. I know that she's 2 and she's awefully young for that, but to take the frame of mind that I need to "be in control of her" is just the wrong way to look at things (for me anyway). I don't know if i'm way off base....but that's the way i'm looking at it. Yep....she's a little out of control.......but its not going to help her any if I suddenly take control....what will she have learned?
yk?


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## madhousemommy (Apr 10, 2005)

Amy,
I am sorry if I came off as being judgemental and offended you in any way. I totally agree with you on teaching our children self control! She is 2! In her eyes the whole world revolves aournd her. I know where you are comeing from on that I have a 2 3/4 yr.old!
However you have said in pp that she is jumping on your son, that is not "alilttle outta control" that is downright dangerous! alittle outta control is when they are throwing every book across the room and not aiming at anything or anyone.
You must be in charge of the situations, or kids will get the upper hand and then who will have the authority or final decision in your house.A 2 year old?
I Really AM NOT TRYING TO PISS YOU OFF HERE! Just giving you a diferent point of veiw. Its ok to agree to disagree!
The part about "it doesn't feel good to be outta control" was for your daughter.
Really put yourself in her shoes. The whole world revolved around her and her needs, well now this baby is taking that away in some respect, so she is doing every thing and anything to get that back, that cannot feel good, and to see the frustration on your face and eyes, cant feel good either!
___by showing how to set boundaries,create discipline, and communitcate clearly and consistently with your kids without giving into threats, tantrums or tears----Back page of the "Wimpy Parents Book"
As i mentioned before my best friends dd used my dd as a bean bag...were talking running into her with a trike slamming my dd into a cement retaining wall! She was 2 3/4 while my dd was around 21 months darn near breaking her leg! Only to get a watered down scolding, still keep the trike and still being bratty. At whose expense? Her parents dont like "being Mean" but its Ok for their dd to be mean and inflict pain on others regardless of the fact she is 2 and doesn't understand what she is doing.
Please please understand where I am comeing from on this point of veiw.
Val


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

golly. this is a toughie! i have been on both sides of this fence. i have to agree with val in that it is more then a little dangerous. but i am sure you know that already. have you tried at all having her sit with you to read a sotry why your feed the baby? sadly i do think we have to play some sort of mind game with our toddlers... us really bing in control, but they think they are the ones that are in control, so they learn self control in a controlled situation... hows that for some mubo jumbo double talk?!








i bought a book(BLECH, another book) called I'm okay, your a brat. i read it when riley was 3-4ish. thats what helped me realize that i wasn't "breaking his spirit" by teaching him control, while controlling the situation myself. its definitly a fine balance. and as moms i think we have a hard time with that, i know i for one do not want to hurt my childs feelings. i spent a lot time thinking, i needed to let my son be a free spirit.... but then reality hit and i realized that his behaviour WAS OUT OF CONTROL. and by me not giving him limitations for fear of stifling him, made it worse. now, i am not sure what limitations you are giving your toddler, but i don't think you should feel guilty about controlling the situation for a while. behaviour is learned. and IMO, if you don't show her what control is, she won't figure it out by herself. see what i mean? just at age 2 she cannot figure out yet what is and is not acceptable behviour, her job is to do as she pleases and see what happens. also i am not saying that you need to stomp down like a meanie and a grouch( which i am totally sure you won't) i am just saying that maybe you need to be the one to hold the reins a bit, while you teach her how to drive. she is in fact controlling y ou by making you get up while feeding the baby. at the same time, you don't want to let her continue her hurtful and destructive behviour. i am just now a very big believer that children need rules, they can't be left to figure out right and wrong on their own( even though thats what feels right to a loving momma like yoruself) not mean rules, just rules for life. toddlers act on primal urge.. its amazing, and i cannot express how many times i just wanted to hurl myself across the floor screaming like my toddler did when frustrated. since you cnanot regroup and redirect while nursing a baby(unless you have 5 or 6 arms) i think controlling the setting while you are nursing might be a good start. i just feel for you becasu eyou must be so stressed and torn up. and yes i too have spanked







: not in a hasty nasty way, but in a you-are-not-to-repeat-this-behaviour-again type way. i also would wrap my arms around him from the side, so i coudl still look him in the face and squeez tightly and say, "i will control you so that you can learn to control yourself" he woudl SCREAM. but then i could start to feel him relax, and breathe and i woudl just say... that he was doing a good job and controlling himself. hurting the baby is just not acceptable. its not. you know it, i know it, anyone who reads this knows it. its you finding a way, that YOU can live with to deal with it. if spanking is what works for you is the gentle squeeze works, if yelling works... thats what it comes down to, WHAT WORKS. as mommas here, we are just a sounding board, and do our very best to offer good non judgemental advice, although sometimes it can feel like we are being attacked, i truly feel that we aren't. i can tell you a thousand times over what has worked for me but at the end of the day, its finding something that works for you is whats important. you have to let go of the guilt that you are stifling her personality, and help your daughter get herself together, no matter what it takes. and you will. i promise you that. its not an easy road. i don't pretend that it is. i think i have literlaly beat my head into a wall over this in the past. but we got through it. and my 7 year old now exhibits amazinf patience and control, you would never ever know that he was once an unruly hellion.
now go love on your ben for a few minutes and clear your head!
peace momma!


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

I could have written your post. In my case as dd has gotten more mobile the situation is worse.

I don't know if "time out" is an acceptible "punishment", but it has worked at the age of 2 to 4 for my boys. They cry just at the words "time out". I use either the dinning room chair pulled away from the table, the stairs and if the situation is really bad, his crib. Their feelings are hurt more than anything, but it give me a moment to rational the situation, inspect the other child for harm and then go back to the inflicter to have a "chat".

I am at a loss as well b/c I do not feel like dealing with this in public, so I tend to put off grocery shopping until absolutely past necessary.

I have also taken toys to "time out", this is very effective with much loved toys. It isn't so effective with everyday, we've got a million just like it toys.

Unfortunatly my dh has started "you hurt Mia, I hurt you" -- he is at his witz end and frustrated with me for not having control. So I'm right there with you.

My ds2 can be so sweet and angelic one minute and beating the crap out of his sister the next or the cats. And if I remember correctly, boys that harm animals are more likely to be abusers.... I've got more than I can handle some days.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roseselene*
thanks for all the responses. I just ordered and received today -- "easy to love, difficult to discipline" "love rituals" & "positive discipline a-z" I hope maybe there will be something useful in those books........The only problem with the advice about keeping baby away from toddler is that when they are playing alone, she seems to do fine. He will sit on the floor and fiddle with the baby toys and she will sit there with him and make him laugh. If I come over, that's when the problems start. Most of the bruises have occurred when I'm breastfeeding. Imagine a woman attempting to breastfeed a 24 pound 6 month old while blocking her wild hyper toddler from whacking the baby's head with a toy..........hmmmmm....i've been wondering why he's getting up to eat all night all of sudden, i think i might have figured it out......eating during the day is dangerous for him.
I really think she's jealous of my time with him...i just don't know what to do about that. I almost feel like I don't know him very well, because she doesn't allow me to pay attention to him (whenever i do, she concocts an emergency)....has anyone experienced this?
Amy









I have not BTDT. Nevertheless, I have wisdom from my great-great aunt's daughter. (I think that makes her my dad's second cousin? Anyway an older and wiser lady.) When she first saw me nursing, she reminisced about how sweet it was to nurse her second child. She said, "I would get a pile of story books and nurse on the bed with the older child cuddled up to me, reading him a story."

My son is 26 months and there is just one of him, and I use diversion a lot to keep him on an even keel. It's not very easy to provide diversion from jealousy when you are doing the thing that makes her feel jealous! So you have to try to create a ritual that gives her attention, too, and be as proactive about it as possible (don't wait for the hitting to start!) I liked the idea of the videos, too. I could definitely see saying to my little guy, "I have to nurse your sibling, will you come meet me in the bedroom with some story books to read together?" (or "Will you come get a video for us to watch together?" or "Will you pick out some music for the stereo for me?" or whatever.)


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## Soundhunter (Dec 13, 2003)

Could she use some more excercise and challenges in her life? A gymnastics class or some way to burn off steam while you tend to the slower paced needs of an infant? I was a hyper and intense child,and when Ilook back at my childhood, what I often needed was more exercise.


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## madhousemommy (Apr 10, 2005)

kids and pets waddya do....








We have small pets, Weiner dog and 2 cats(fortunate for my kids,sometimes not so fortunate for them at times)
Our dd2 thought our cats were beanie babies or something. All have learned to coincide peacefully but it took awhile.

Elektra375, i dont think you have anything to worry about with your son being a sociopathic abuser...he is too young for that, and i doubt he is actually mimicing (sp) abusive behavior...I think its when they are older ya gotta woryy about that

Val
mama to 3


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

OP- you are getting a lot of different advice here. Just thought I'd chime in. I agree with some of the other posters that your daughter is yearning for limits and for you to be in charge. Kids this age feel safer when you are in charge. And I think you being in control (not all the time, but when she is out of control) helps her learn self-control. I often say to my son, "I will not let you hurt your brother. It's OK to feel----, but it is not OK to hit! Use this pillow to show me how you feel (or whatever)." It seems to help him feel safe and loved when I let him know that the feelings are OK, but I will not allow him to act on his aggressive impulses. Prevention is your best strategy. You must protect the baby for all of your sakes. Of course you can't catch everything, particularly as they get older. I also agree that reading books, videos, etc. is great during nursing. Unfortunately that never worked with my kids, because my baby is so distractible. I generally nurse in a quiet room with the door closed (at home) or in the sling (when we are out). Yes, this is tough on DS, but he has gotten used to it for the most part, and it helps keep everyone safe and respected. When DS son does come in, he knows he must be very quiet and respectful or he will have to go right back out.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

If this is primarily a problem with you nursing your younger child, you need to figure out a way to change the situation so your older child has something better to do than pester you and baby. It is much, much better to avoid problems than have to deal with them mid-nursing session, which has got to be the toughest time to discipline anyone!

Can you come up with some special, just for nursing activities? THe advantage of having a slighly older baby is that he's probably at least somewhat predictable in when he will want to nurse and you can be prepared. And he can probably wait 2 minutes while you get your daughter settled.

Some things that worked for us were videos/TV (used only when baby was nursing) -- yes, this is more TV than most are comfortable with, but it's probably only for a little while as things get settled down/sorted out and what's worse -- hurting the baby or watching a carefully-chosen video? Also, anything that will keep her interest and keep her near enough for you to watch over her. Maybe playdough (hard on the carpet, but that's secondary), paints/markers (my son never did like these, but some kids do), any other special toys you can think of.

This approach will give you a temporary reprieve while you figure out your next steps, it won't actually solve the problem. A longer-term solution probably will require some of the other advise you have gotten here.


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

ok,.....where to start? I'm going to thank everyone for their replies, and try to comment on everything. In regards to her getting more exercise. I try to give her as much exercise as I can possibly give her. she is in gymnastics class, we have a trampoline.....we go to the mall and she can walk around the mall for 2 1/2 hours and not be tired, etc etc, etc. She has a never ending supply of energy. My sister came down her from philadelphia and she thinks she knows everything there is to know about young children and she is convinced that she is right about raising children and everything that i am doing is wrong wrong wrong. She told me she was going to come down here and show me how to wear my daughter out so that she would go to bed like a good girl and sleep through the night (she never has). My sister succeeded in wearing herself out and emily still had plenty of energy left. I have taken her to the mall and walked and walked and played and played (play area in the mall) for like 2 1/2 hours and she will cry for more when its time to go. There just doesn't seem to be any limit for her.

Gymnastics class does not seem to help this....maybe if gymnastics class was 5 hours long or something.....but for now it doesn't seem to help. She can jump on her trampoline for an hour and still have plenty of energy.

In regards to reading while nursing....yes I've tried that.....except for the fact that emily has taken to whacking ben over the head with the books...or attempting to push him off the couch, or pinching his face, or hitting his head or whatever else.....so its come to the fact that its just not even safe to have her around when he's eating. She can watch videos...i gave into videos a long time ago, but she would rather have contrived emergencies when ben is eating so that i HAVE to get up and tend to her.

In regards to setting limits, boundaries, control, structure...what have you....i hear you, i've heard this before from numerous people and in numerous books, but i just dont' know what to do....to be honest i am really really really really at the very very end of my rope. I just don't even want to be around my daughter any more. I can't stand each and every day when I wake up i just dread the day ahead. My daughter does not respond well to ANY kind of structure. Any attempt that my husband and I have made to impose any kind of structured environment, no matter how minimal or basic (such as please don't hit ben, hit the pillow instead) or bed time, or you name it, she reacts VERY negatively. Its actually a MORE undesirable reaction that if we had just dealth with the current bad behavior and not tried to impose a rule. She seems to CRAVE....NEED disorder. I could sit here list example after example of how she seems to just need disorder, but I won't......just suffice it to say, that I have tried to provide her with at least minimal structure and she seems to buck it at every turn. When I ask her to please not do something....or even turn it around and instead of asking her not to do something, I ask her to to please do..such and such...so I'm not actually overtly saying "no" to what she's doing. She just looks at me and cackles and laughs and whatever. She can run endlessly.....

to be honest, i'm sick of her......i can't stand her







I hate saying that, but none of these things are helping me. I'm reading "easy to love, difficult to discipline" and I'm shaking my head while I'm reading it and thinking how utterly absurd some of her suggestions are and how the just don't even apply in my world.

I'm sorry to sound like I'm dumping on everyone and this post seems to be a bit of a stream of consciousness. I've just got off the phone scheduling an appointment with the doctor because I want her evaluated for some kind of psychological problem. I honestly think that she can't be normal, because i honestly think that noone would want to have any more kids if this is what you have to go through with toddlerhood.

sorry to vent.
Amy


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I think that book, when my high needs dc was 2-3 years old, was much more helpful to me than Easy to Love, Positive Parenting for Preschoolers/ A to Z, Kids Are Worth It, and so on.

I think that while talking about an evaluation for your daughter may be good, it's also good to consider taking a parenting class or talking to a counselor yourself-not because you're not a good mom, but because you need both some support and some skills or information to help you raise your child without feeling so overwhelmed and lost. It's not healthy, for either of you, for you to have that feeling of dreading another day with your daughter (you aren't alone in that, btw-I've btdt). Whatever is going on within her, your feelings of being overwhelmed and frustrated and stressed aren't helping and may in fact contribute to it-she's off the wall, you get frustrated, she picks up on that, and she acts out more. It happens to many moms at some point.

I think that it's very likely, as others have said, that your daughter is having a hard time adjusting to the birth of your son. It really is a hard time, especially for high needs kids who really do seem to need more attention and who seem to feel things more intensely. Playful Parenting, which is a book I'd highly recommend as well, has a little section on sibling rivalry-the author suggests letting the older child play a game where they can act out their aggressive and jealous feelings toward the new sibling and then save the baby from danger (he used the example of taking a doll and tossing it off the bed into hot lava, then rescuing it-play is a safe way of expressing those feelings, though it may be frightening in a way to the parent to actually play this game). I can't remember exactly how he put it, but the basic idea was that the feelings of anger and aggression and jealousy that children feel toward new siblings are really scary to them, because they also love the baby. And often those feelings come out in other ways-not just in hitting the baby, but in having a hard time in general. So kids really do benefit from talking about those feelings and acting them out in a safe way. Having one-on-one time is great, but really talking about those feelings in a safe way is more important, IMO.

If the baby really can't eat safely because of her behavior, I would set her up with all she needs, in a safe place (baby/toddlerproof), making sure that I've met all the needs she needs help with, then go into a room she can't get into and nurse. The baby deserves to eat without being hurt or interrupted every time. I have done this. It's not fun, and my dd cried (well, raged actually), but the baby had a right to eat safely and, at least sometimes, without interruption. Yes, she came up with "emergencies" (I'm hungry!, I fell down! My pants came off!) but as long as they were not truly urgent issues or safety issues (I'm talking blood, vomit or diarrhea, something dangerous has broken or fallen, or maybe butt-wiping after a bm-which I wouldn't rush for), I would not stop nursing to attend to her. It stinks. It does. But safety first.

Mostly,







It's just not easy being a mom, and the change from parenting one child to parenting two children is huge. It's just hard.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I hear you on the "end of your rope" plea. I've certainly been there, and I'm sure we aren't the only ones. It just seems like we are the only ones!

It sounds like you've tried a whole lot of things, so maybe time to think about some radical ideas. I think the evaluation is fine, but I'm willing to bet that you won't get much more than the fact that you have a high energy kid. I have two, so I really do understand.

Have you considered something like part-time preschool? I don't know what your life looks like or what your resources are, but hear me out on this. I suggest this for a couple of reasons. First, it would give you a much-needed break and time to regroup and get your barings back. This is important -- you can't be the mother you want to be when you are beyond exhausted, which is how you sound at the moment. Second, it would give her some basic experience with structure and routine. It is NOT avoiding the issue to get some help on something that you aren't sure how to do, it is smart parenting.

If a regular program is more than you can think about (or you can't find one or this isn't immediate enough right now), then at least consider bringing in some help. If you don't want to leave her with a strange sitter, find someone to come in a play with her during the part of the day you are most likely to be nursing your baby. Even a young teen could be useful at this, and they don't cost much.

Not everyone is really cut out out to be great 24/7 mothers. I readily admit that part of the reason that I work PT is because I could not do this all day, every day. My kids are much, much better off in PT daycare/preschool than they would be with me 24/7. You may be similar. Or not, but at least give it some thought.


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

Well, I do already work part time. I work 40 hours in 2 weeks so i guess that's half time. The time away is ok, but lately work has been a big pain in the butt, so I don't find it all that stress relieving. ykwim?
Its a very emotional love/hate relationship for me when I'm at work. I NEED to be away from the house....but its annoying there lately....and then I get very emotional about missing my kids. I feel like a big do do.....i'm supposed to need time away right? why on earth would I want to come home to the zoo...?








one of these days it will all make sense.
Amy


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

i pm'ed you.
it sure sounds like you have done EVERYTHING! my goodness.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

You have gotten many many suggestions...

just a couple points...about wearing out children...exercise causes endorphins to be released...no wild exercise after dinner...it won't wear her out...it will wind her up..fresh air in the day is good though and so is swimming for making them sleepy.

Diet...check for food allergies...is she getting dyes(natural or chemical), chemicals, sugar, wheat, anything that is a known allergen...my oldest had some food allergies that caused her to behave that way(extreme)...it was something she only occasionally had so it was easy to pinpoint but she really got violent when she was exposed..if it's something she is regularly getting in her diet then she would behave this way regularly

my last bit of advice...when your DH is home..put him completely in charge of her and that way you get a break and baby gets you alone...I am not sure of your schedule but maybe he could take over bath, bedtime etc. Some people might say he should take over with baby so you can spend time with her etc. etc. but maybe by that time you are so worn out you don't have patience for her and so the quality time you spend with her is not as quality as she needs(and she senses it too)


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

two little added notes:
as far as the food goes...i know she's sensitive to dye's....she can't have any gatorade without going completely insane....and chocolate...well, we won't even talk about chocolate. just plain nono.

well, and I got my sling out this evening...i havne't been using it for ben because my back has just been killing me and i thought it would make it worse, but I decided to give it a go....its the same sling i used for Emily. I got it out and she immediately started going "mi mi...mi mi...mi mi..." this is how she says "emily" she was like practically climbing me. So i put her in the sling (poor ben) and she clung to me for like 25 minutes and wouldn't get down and just seemed so fascinated that she was in the sling. I asked her if she remembered riding in that all the time...she said yet....and then she held onto it and said "mi mi's" but she also said that ben could not get into it.... but then after she had her 25 minutes in it....she did let ben get into it after all. I think she just is having some MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR issues with ben......doesn't make it any easier....but i guess it helps to have some insight into her little world.

ya know?
Amy


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

I don't know where you live, but we could trade toddlers for a day!!! LOL I've got mine in gymnastics too. And we are buying him a trampoline this month for his birthday!!!

Honestly, I almost set up a super play yard in my house last week, but one of the pieces was missing so it wouldn't lock together. My intent was to put him in there to keep him from beating up on his sister and getting into my medicines and cake decorating supplies.

Advice for those mother's who are reading who will have a newborn soon --
When Amelia and I were first nursing in the living room and Douglas would act up, I immediately went and removed him from the activity that he should not have been doing. I knew that I had to remain consistant inorder for me to maintain order. Those first 4 or 5 months were difficult, dd learned to hold on tight if I got up to get Douglas, she rarely ever let go of her latch. With a child like Douglas, I don't know what I'd be in for if I hadn't. Telling him no from across a room doesn't work the way it did with my first!!!

He doesn't hit dd while nursing, but rather during play time or when they are together. If I turn my back for a second he jumps on her back, sits on her, takes her toys, hits her, etc. And if I'm with her or doing something like my work, he is getting into crap all over the house. Two weeks ago he downed bottles of homeopathic medicine from the top shelf in the kitchen, today he dumped the new infant advil down the drain he got the child proof cap off, months ago it was my bath soap down the toilet about $120 worth of bathroom stuff when down the toilet in the course of my dd's first 6 months of life. In the past month it's been about $40 in stuff he shouldn't have been in. He has recently learned how to open the frig, I found him and the OJ carton this afternoon -- just like a guy drinking from the carton. I'm thankful it wasn't all over the floor. Praise the little things. As those book so fondly say Negative attention is better than no attention. Unfortunately I have found myself giving him more negative attention than positive, so I try to find positives in the not so great situations.

The worst energy for him is tired energy, he doesn't appear to be tired to anyone but me. I know when his behaviors change from his norm to his tired and it isn't easy for me to be intune all the time. I do often times place him in the crib with his blanket and juice and tell him mommy knows you need a nap and shut the door. Sometime he just lies down and goes to sleep no problem other times... It isn't CIO when they are angry at you, I honestly feel the situation for CIO is different from "I'm angry at you for making me go to sleep and I'm so tired I don't know what else to do but scream at you."

To the OP, I really honest to goodness feel for you and understand completely more than you know. I want to guide him to behaviors that are not destructive, and it is so hard. I haven't found a solution, I keep trying different things and from experience with my first who was really easy, guidance techniques change as the child changes. So what works this month may not work in 5 months. It is extremely difficult to with my husband who believes what was good for him is good for his sons. I'm not thrilled about the "You hurt me, I hurt you" he's got going on right now. So two different styles of parenting may not be helping the situation for us.

I have not read any books on parenting, I was completely turned off by page 35 of a book given to me "Sheparding a Child's Heart" -- spank your children and tell them God told you to do it!!!







:














And the saddest thing is that there are probably a lot of parents doing this.

If you have LLL meetings, try going to a few. LLL models loving guidance and area conferences hold sessions on loving guidance. This year is the international conference in DC, sessions on this topic are likely to be given. The LLL leader can be a good source of information as could be other members of the group. I traveled 40 miles each way to LLL meetings with Douglas as an infant for bf support, but walked away with a lot more.

There is no quick fix that I can think of, if there were I'd probably be doing it myself. And as a former spanker, spanking doesn't work long term either for strong willed children (and I myself was a strong willed child, so my mother is having a hay day). But in the same turn she critizes me for not having a play pen b/c we "spent hours in our play pens by ourselves playing" while she did what ever it is that she did -- I finally told her find me one to buy and I'll buy it. She hasn't been able to find one. I just don't believe confinement is the best answer or most effective teaching tool -- but there are moments when I wish I did have a play pen.

Maybe some well seasoned mother of a few strong willed, spirited children has some real advice those books don't have...


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

wow! I want to laugh and cry all at the same time at your post. Some of the things are funny if you're an innocent bystander, but I know that they aren't funny when they are happening to you!!

Did I mention that emily started a kitchen fire a few weeks ago by pushing a 12 pack of soda over to the counter and climbing up on it and turning on the stove







(we got rid of that stovetop and bought a new one with much safer toddler proof knobs)

oh my, perhaps we will laugh about this one day.
Amy


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

Roseselene. It's sounds like things are so rough for you right now. Back pain, job troubles, and adjusting to life with a baby and sprited toddler to top it off. Are you taking care of yourself? I mean really structuring in self-care: hot baths, writing, prayer, exercise, yoga, massages, or whatever it is that helps rejuvenate YOU? When my son was 2 1/2, my weekly yoga class helped me hang on to the rope, and also helped me feel better physically. Do you have a partner that can support you in this? Also, things WILL get better. 2 1/2 has been the toughest time for me so far. I was such a happier mom as DS neared 3.


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## mamamillie (Jul 22, 2003)

, mama
Although I only have one, I think I understand well what you are going through. My ds (3yo) was and is like your dd...to be honest, it is the reason why I DON'T have another baby! I imagine we would be dealing w the same issues. You have been given a lot of good input already, but I would like to add my .02
I was thinking of the sling before I read your last post, but I was thinking it would enable you to more comfortably nurse ds and still be able to get up to help dd. But I see where she will not like him to be in her sling! Perhaps you could get a new sling that is "his." But her reaction when you pulled it out tells me how she is longing for closeness with you. It seems like she is earning a lot of negative attention from you. This:

Quote:

to be honest, i'm sick of her......i can't stand her I hate saying that, but none of these things are helping me. I'm reading "easy to love, difficult to discipline" and I'm shaking my head while I'm reading it and thinking how utterly absurd some of her suggestions are and how the just don't even apply in my world.
kindof really raised a red flag for me. I am not flaming you, and believe me, that I do understand your feelings and that they are frustration and that you don't really mean the terrible things you said about her. But you did say them (to us, not to her, I know), but I am certain that our children can pick up on our emotions, especially such strong emotions in response to them...and I feel this is possibly a major factor in the troubles you are having. I do totally understand, and have felt nearly this strongly myself when I have been overwhelmed. But in every case where I have felt negatively towards my son, giving myself an attitude adjustment has worked wonders. Your dd is NOT "bad." You are having a lot to deal with but you definitely need to do everything possible to readjust your attitude towards her. Obviously, do not allow her to hurt your son or herself. But if you can, I would lay off on her criticizing her or giving any negative attention for anything other than safety issues and try try try to give her as much POSITIVE attention and interaction and closeness w you as possible. Talk to her w your sweet loving mommy voice. Tell her that she was every bit as cute as her brother when she was a baby. Tell her with your words and your actions many times a day how much you love her. Hug her as much as she will let you. Get on the floor and play w her. When you see her playing nicely w her brother, tell her how much you appreciate it. Try to always look at her w love in your eyes and a smile or pleasant expression on your face (except when you are calmly and firmly telling her that she cannot hurt people or animals). I would suggest investing any time or attention you have in being w her rather than reading all these many books that have been suggested...that is more attention that she is not getting, when you are reading (or read when she is asleep). I am not against reading, believe me I have a full shelf of parenting books, but I have noticed myself putting my son off ("Not now, baby, please go play w your blocks and leave mama alone,") while I READ about how to be a better parent.







:
As far as the excess energy is concerned, as I said, I can TOTALLY relate. The best things I can tell you, is that for my ds, he always does much better throughout the day if I can get him outside for a long run and jump and play session first thing in the morning. And also to really examine the food allergies....no dyes, corn syrup, etc. For my ds, the most important thing is that he gets plenty of protein. Sugar does not seem to be a problem if he gets plenty of protein, but without protein the sugar makes him super hyper.
If you have not given her play-doh yet, that is what I would recommend for the nursing times. I have a plastic bin (sweater box) filled w play doh and all kinds of molds and cutting tools and etc that I pull out when I need ds to be still and out of my way and he loves it. My normally nonstop rambunctious guy will squish and roll and cut the playdoh at the kitchen table for hours. Or find something else. Go to the dollar store and stock up on cool new suprises and give her a new something neat just before you sit down to nurse. Tell her how much you love her and how much you appreciate what a help she is to you and ask her to play with it while her brother eats. Or make up a special song to sing about her while you nurse baby. I bet she will like that!
One other crazy way off the wall suggestion that just occured to me...does it seem that it is the nursing she resents rather than the brother? Did you wean her because of the pg or birth? Not to get in your business but maybe she would like a chance to nurse as well? From what I understand, often it helps them to know that they can, but that once they try they giggle or can't remember how and don't actualy begin nursing again, but it just helps them to know that mommy would let them....
Anyway, good luck. I hope I haven't offended you by anything in this post. I know that you will strike a balance and feel better and that you will be a great mama to both of your dc!


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

Hello! I'm just now getting back to reading your post. I'll try to comment the best I can. While I would agree that DD is picking up my negative emotions (i know that she is)....i know that's not the root of the problem. I don't walk around like that.....so I do know that its mainly jealousy and her bizarre antics are causing me to feel crazy which worsens the situation for her.
Here is the emotional struggle for me....imagine if you can, how you might feel if someone came up and whacked your son on the head with a hard plastic toy and gave him a bruise and a big goose egg....imagine if that person did that frequently (also hitting, biting, kicking, etc...) Imagine the anger,....the maternal instinct against whoever was doing that to your precious dear child. now.....turn that emotion around and imagine feeling that ABOUT your child. Its a huge emotional rollarcoaster to feel that way and yet, its a very negative situation, and I can't get around that.

As far as the nursing thing goes....emily never nursed, we couldn't get her to latch on at all, so I always pumped and bottle fed her EBM for 15 months....then now she's getting breast milk again since I can pump it for her. However, she doesn't know how to nurse. She does try since she sees ben doing it and I always let her try whenever she asks, but she doesn't know how, i don't think she knows that she's doing it differently than ben.....she just puts her mouth up there and hangs out there for a little while...then she'll get down and say "ben turn" .

She definitely gets alot of attention.....positive from me....in fact the past month or so, i've actually felt very separated from my son because she is so very demanding of my attention and he is such an easy going baby, that I can set him down and play with her.

Those are just my randon thoughts. I really do think that's she IS jealous of ben, but really.....i couldn't possibly pay more attention to her than i already do unless I just didn't have ben.

Amy


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

_disclaimer to madhousemommy: i'm honestly not trying to pick on you, but i wanted to address some of your comments as i think the OP sounds conflicted and i feel some of the issues you brought up are common among people new to GD and needed discussing further. Your concern for the OP really came through in your posts. I hope I don't offend or misinterpret you._

Quote:

however I see that most GD parents end up in a huge power stuggle with their kids and the kids getting the upper hand.
I think this is a generalization, and an unfair one at that. If you are ending up in power struggles, you are definitely not doing GD, or anything else, effectively.

Quote:

What I see is a alot of "talk to your child" with no back up with consequences.
Sometimes there don't need to be consequences. When you are dealing with behaviours that stem from unaddressed emotions, I don't think "consequences" do any good. And just talking can do worlds of good, if it's productive and focused on the real issues. Siblings Without Rivalry gives several wonderful examples of this.

Quote:

You must be in charge of the situations, or kids will get the upper hand and then who will have the authority or final decision in your house.
I don't think this 2 year old is attempting a coup. I don't think she is "in charge". I think she's a little baby with very big emotions and no idea how to handle them. I don't see how being "in charge" even relates to this problem.

Quote:

She was 2 3/4 while my dd was around 21 months darn near breaking her leg! Only to get a watered down scolding, still keep the trike and still being bratty. At whose expense? Her parents dont like "being Mean" but its Ok for their dd to be mean and inflict pain on others regardless of the fact she is 2 and doesn't understand what she is doing.
.

I don't think this child is being "mean". And discipline doesn't have to be "mean" either. The "scolding" bit is part of the problem, and I'm guessing there was no modelling of good behaviour or addressing of the feelings/issues behind it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rileysmommy*
she is in fact controlling you by making you get up while feeding the baby.

I think this whole idea of "control" needs to be out of the picture. None of this is about control, it's about a little girl who desperately needs help processing her feelings and learning to express them in an acceptable manner.

Quote:

its you finding a way, that YOU can live with to deal with it. if spanking is what works for you is the gentle squeeze works, if yelling works... thats what it comes down to, WHAT WORKS.
Sorry, I don't agree with this. That's like saying that tying your daughter to a chair while nursing baby is okay because it works. This isn't about just stopping her from hitting, this is about addressing the root causes. This is about teaching a child to identify her feelings, to process them in a healthy way, and to express them in a way that is clear, safe, and promotes empathy from others rather than causing them to get in defense mode.

Amy, I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. I went through a brief phase where I was having trouble handling DD (she was running away from me into the street) and for a while I felt like I just wasn't having any fun being with her. I know how horrible that made me feel. Oh, and I also know what it's like to have your baby hurt at the expense of your child. I know that mama bear instinct that wants to lash out at the older one, and then the mama love for that older child brings a heap of guilt onto your head. It's a hard-to-win situation.

I do think that you need to focus on the core issues here. Behaviours are just outward expressions of what is going on inside. As someone else said, toddlers are so RAW. They are full of raw emotions with no valve on the lid and they just come out explosively. I think you need to figure out a course of action and then stick with it. I find that repetition and consistency are key. I can tell you that you CAN do this, and you can do it without any form of punishment, without timeouts, without yelling or hitting. You can. Keep reading, in the meantime come up with some solutions for keeping baby safe. Be drastic if you have to, but do it. I often nurse my DS standing up. It's more comfortable for me that way. Could you do that with your baby? That way, your child cannot touch baby. Could you gate a childproofed area of the home and put your toddler in there while you stand and nurse the baby, so she can't hurt herself or you?

And keep reading. Easy to Love is great. Siblings Without Rivalry. But as you know these aren't quick fixes, so much as giving you a whole new context in which to frame this problem. As Easy to Love says: what you focus on, you get more of. Try to see PAST the hitting, and into the hurting, scared little girl inside. I know when you are out of energy it is so hard to do that. Hang in there. I get the feeling from your posts that you have a guide in your heart, you know what speaks to you and what doesn't. Follow that heart.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roseselene*
I really do think that's she IS jealous of ben, but really.....i couldn't possibly pay more attention to her than i already do unless I just didn't have ben.

But that's just it, sometimes "paying more attention" isn't the only cure, or even the right cure. Sometimes kids just need to be validated in what they are feeling. And, more importantly, to _*know that they aren't bad people for feeling that way*_. You can't give her the same degree of attention you did before Ben came along, but you can still help her get through this.


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## madhousemommy (Apr 10, 2005)

Piglet68 -You do not offend me but may have misinterpreted where i am coming from, only for the fact i didn't clarify what my point of veiw was. I welcome open communication. After Amy's last post I think all of us can truly in our gut FEEL her frustration, and I will bet our first thought was... man I wish I could jump through this screen and give this mama a hug!!! With that said I will continue in clearing my point of veiw.

IMHO- Control is the ability to determine right from wrong. It is not standing over your child with a dictator stick, spouting do this or else.

IMHO-Discipline is to creat the desired enviroment through education & repetition(sp) and to do so with love, understanding and common sense.
Call me crazy but I would not expect my almost 3yrdd to behave while going to the grocery store 1/2 an hour before her lunch time. That is ME being "not disciplined", in the fact i expected too much for my child, putting her in position that she's not able to comprehend. "AAAHHH but mommy I'm hungry"
do you see what I am getting at?

IMHO-Watered down...as in too much! For Example
crouched next to child, child facing parent
#1. oh honey i cant beleive you just did that, you know you dont run into other kids when you are riding your trike, it hurts. I think you should go over and say your sorry for hurting her...go say you're sorry, I said go say you're sorry. If you dont say you're sorry her mom will be mad at you.
Crouched next to child, child facing parent
#2. You will not run into X with your trike, that hurts.

In the first example the child will just lose any focus on what is being said to them....they may hear some of it, part of it, and probably just end up confused. Its too much, its watered down. The second example is less confusing.

IMHO-authority is the ability to direct, and the have final say.
Life experience for me:
The best managers of business's have an amazing ability to "direct" their employees. Those employees knew what was expected of them, they didn't need to be micro managed, if an issue came up and could not be resolved on a customer service level, it went to the manager, to make the decision on what the best course of action for that particular issue, she had the authority to make that decision. The final say so to speak
IMHO- consequence ....as in when my 14yr dd chatted on the phone for 2 hours instead of studying for her Science test and recieved an F. A fair consequence in my house would be limiting her phone time until she shows me she can manage her time better. Unfair would be grounding her for a week. BTW grounding in our house means NO phone,tv,internet privelages and friends over. Is that outta line?

I apologize for the generalization on GD,your right, that was outta line. "being mean" was also a generalization, What do you tell parents when they say " I just don't like being mean to my kids" Like the trike for example, In other instances with this "trike mama" she will say to me " I don't like taking away toys she dearly loves, its mean" I dont think that is mean, if they are misuseing the toy..for whatever reason, takeing it away is not being mean. that includes markers...IYKWIM? That doesn't mean the child will not pick up something else to lets say smash something. It only deals with the material object ot the time and not the action of the child. Or if a child is in a resturant screaming, runniing away from the parent,causeing an obvious disruption...WWYD? When i see that happen, I am always thinking to myself...what's happening here, what was leading up to this? WHY is this child behaveing like this?

I do realize saying the 2 3/4 was "being mean" was not fair... rough is more like it.

I hope that gives you a better understanding of where I am comeing from.
Val


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
And just talking can do worlds of good, if it's productive and focused on the real issues. Siblings Without Rivalry gives several wonderful examples of this.

OK, having just finished Siblings without Rilvary with great hope in my heart for help (having heard it referenced so much here), this may set up some unreasonable expectations. The OP's child is 2, and (reading between the lines), not necessarily a highly verbal 2. Siblings without Rilvary relies almost entirely on verbal communication. Thus, I cannot for the life of me see how it is very useful with newly verbal or limited verbal toddlers.

I'm not disagreeing with the points Piglet made (heaven forbid!), only pointing out that this particular book may not be the best option for this particular situation. Or, I missed something in the book, which is always possible.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I had another thought as I walked away from the computer...

I think this thread has become sort of "blind men and the elephant" -like. There are several approaches discussed, and the OP is probably going "OK, so which is it? " And the answer is, "all of the above". As with many situations, there are several different sides to the issue and several different solutions need to be implimented before the entire problem is addressed.

Immediately she needs to figure out a way to keep everyone safe while she nurses the baby (options presented include distract toddler, nurse standing, get someone to help with toddler, etc). Then she needs to figure out how to meet underlying needs of toddler (options offered include helping toddler verbalize feelings, validate feelings, more attention or more meaningful (to the toddler) attention. Of course, you can't do this until you have dealt with safety issues and this doesn't happen overnight. More controversial (at least here) is the idea that when deliberate harm takes place, there should be consequences. I don't see anything wrong with that (provided they are non-violent and fit with the OPs style etc), as long as the other sides of the isse are also addressed and given a chance to work.

Point being, many of the things presented here aren't mutually exclusive (which they sound like if you read the thread), they are different sides of the same issue and a combination of actions is the only way to actually resolve the entire problem.

OK, I'm going back to the dishes now, so much for grand insights.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Just a quick post-

I would take another look into the food triggers. If my child gets into sugar, and sometimes it is just too much fruit, or yogurt with sugar in it, he will lose his mind. I was the same way as a child and also have to be careful because certain meds will make me hypoglycemic. Dyes are also a problem, as are some additives (we haven't narrowed it down, I just know when he gets processed foods it can often cause a 20-22 hour no-sleep marathon, as can even a tiny amount of sugar) In my experience, it is really tough to address behavior issues when there is an organic cause of some kind...be it food issues or other things (ADD, ADHD, ect.) I would take a closer look into that since you mentioned some sensitivities, IIRC.


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

Reading your posts made my heart hurt. Your DD sounds very much like my DS. He has always been ultra high-need, but after DD was born, all @#$% broke loose -- and I totally understand the feeling of just not wanting to be anywhere near your child. I don't think that makes you a less than loving mother, just a tired, worn out, frustrated and just plain emotionally exausted one.

That said, there were many things that you said about your DD (that I'm too tired right now to quote, I'll try to come back in the morning and list some of them) that make me wonder if she might have some sensory issues. I know it is yet another book to read but I really do recommend taking a look at The Out- of- Sync Child to see if anything rings a bell.

My DS was recently diagnosed with Sensory Integration Disorder and after his first session with the occupational therapist, he was actually calm for several hours instead of his usual bouncing off the walls, poking at DD, squeezing the cat, running around naked, etc. self. We have a long way to go, but I am genuinely starting to enjoy being around him again.








, again.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

First, ITA with Piglet, great advice.

Second, A PP talked about preschool. Amy, have you considered it.

I think it would be invaluable to try it, not just because of what it could "do" for your dd, but WAY more importantly what it might tell you about her.

If she can go to preschool, you will get a view of her through another person's eyes. If she does well, it will tell you that she has the ABILITY to do this. Certain major issues (food allergies, Attention issues) may start to look like they can be ruled out. She may start to see herself differntly too. Not as the baby, who has been "ousted" but as a big girl with a different life than the baby. Maybe this alone will change your feelings or hers.

However, if she does not improve at all or if she does as poorly at school I would immediately consider bringing in some professional help to help you figure her out (and take her out of school right away if she is not happy.) NOT because it is important that she do well at school at this age or anything, but just because her home behavior clearly warrants you getting some help.


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

I have been frustrated with this type of behavior lately too. My ds is 2.5 and has been biting my 10 mos old ds. I never had any problems until ds2 started crawling a few months ago.

One thing that is helping me is realizing that I need to make a plan, then stick to it for a while. So, right now, we're using a time out in the pack and play whenever he bites. I don't feel great about using time out, but I felt like














:






















when I lost it and spanked him. So, I've realized that time out is compromise I'm willing to make for a while. If it doesn't work, I'll look for a new plan.

My point is, give yourself some room to be imperfect. Yes, it won't feel good to gate her into her bedroom (with activities etc) while you nurse, but, your ds needs to eat (and needs some nice uninterupted loving time with you) and you need everyone to be safe.

You said you wohm part time. Where are your kids when you work? How does she do there? How does she do with him there (if they are together)? Does that give you any insight? (not saying it will, or should, just asking







)

How does she do with pre-teaching? Taht is something else i"m really working on with my ds. I remind him frequently "there is *no* biting your brother, or anyone else. you can say "NO!" if he takes your toy, you can say "help mama" and I will help you, but you *cannot* bite." We also review the consequence (time out). This does seem to help my ds. Would it work to go over it with her "I'm going to nurse ben for 15 minutes. you can play x, y and z, and when he's all done we'll (insert fun activity here). But, you need to be gentle. No hitting etc. If you hurt him while I'm nursing, you'll have to stay in your room/pack and play/where ever until I'm done."

Oh, I'd agree about checking into the food allergies thing too. I don't know a lot about food allergies/intolerances, but I'm on a list with a lot of mamas who do. I know to do IGg and IGe testing, and I know that a diet of pears, rice, turkey and squash for 2 weeks is the least allergenic route, and should be long enough to clear any allergic behaviors. Could be worth a try.

Hang in there mama. We're all here with you


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

I'm finally getting back again to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses! In response to some of the questions.....we went to the doctor and we are going to get some allergy testing done to see if there are some food allergies triggering this or whatever.

I've been taking a totally different approach with her the past few days since I made this post. This thread has helped me to realize that her behavior is really just some serious jealousy...yes it sucks that she's hurting ben, but she's not really being "bad". I've been approaching things with her differently and giving her some real serious TLC, and the last few days have actually been better. I dont' know if its a coincidence, we'll have to give it a little longer to see, but so far, so good. Sure its nowhere near perfect, but is there ever really perfect? anyway, suffice it to say, it is better.

In regards to daycare/preschool.....we just really really really cannot afford it. so, that's really it, we just can't afford it. I do WOHM part time, but DH watches the kids while I'm at work. We don't use any childcare. Emily is a little less wild for him....for some reason she saves the really good stuff for me :LOL

Anyway, thanks for all the great thoughts.......she also seems to be "bored" or my pediatrician thought that.....she's not very verbal yet, but she does seem extremely bright even though she doesn't communicate that. So, we did go pick up some early learning stuff (we plan to homeschool anyway) and some number and alphabet books to add to her book collection.....so we shall see if that helps occupy her little brain a little bit. You know how kids will have you read books over and over and over again.....and then they can "memorize" them and act like they are reading them back, but they're really not reading, they just have the pages memorized. Well, she's already doing that...and maybe I'm wrong, but I just never expected her to be doing that quite that early. So, maybe she is a little bored, and needs something exciting.
Amy


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roseselene*
we went to the doctor and we are going to get some allergy testing done to see if there are some food allergies triggering this or whatever.

Amy









I hope you get a better response than the allergist I just took my son to today! I was told that there has been no proven study that suggest behavior is linked to food allergies!!! What a load of ---- IMO. I had my son tested for a suspected wheat/ grain allergy and dairy -- the skin test proved negative. My son had a reaction to Rye a few months ago, they don't have rye extract to test him!!! So 100 miles round trip to find out he won't die from anaphalactic shock, but have to go back if I want to test him for Rye and bring my own rye bread!!! Sorry, to rant, just got back...

I will now go search into AK chiropractic doctors -- applied kineisology (sp?). The FNL group suggested this route first, well, now I'll go backwards.


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## mumof4 (Aug 12, 2004)

If most the issues are during bfing time why dont you find something that dd can do productive and fun during this time? I found with my children they always acted up while i was tied down. So i would prepare them with an activity, whether it be a colouring book and crayons, a fav video or something to snack on. This way they had something to indulge in while mommy and baby did their thing. I found that this way I was less stressed, baby had a better feed and the other child had something to do for a cple mins to keep out of troubles way.

Just a thought


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## tyedyedeyes (Apr 5, 2005)

I just want to give hugs







and say that I'm glad I found this thread because my DS (2 1/2) is also very high spirited. We do not and are not going to have any more children, but reading these posts is really teaching me a lot about my own son, and why he might be acting up especially for me. I don't know if that made any sense, but i'm basically saying thanks to all of you and hugs to the OP because i'm applying the advice to my own situation.

You all are wonderful!

Kate


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## Yo Becca (Apr 17, 2005)

Hi and hugs

I read this thread for the first time last night and literally sat up in bed thinking about it.

First, congrats to you for being so proactive and dedicated to doing what is best. And I appreciate your honesty about your feelings - healthy to vent them here, so you don't feel you have to vent them to your daughter.

I'm glad to hear you are finding ways to improve the situation. If jealousy is the root cause, an obstacle is that in the moment of the behavior you can't address jealousy. Extra attn. and tlc can help prevent the outbursts, but I spent my run this am thinking about what I would do in the moment to stop the behavior ( I am starting to childcare share with my SIL for my 2.5 yr o neice and 8 mo. old nephew (My dd is also 8 mo.) and there is some jealousy (although not to this degree), so I'm trying to plan ahead to prevent violence)

I'm no expert in gd, but I am pretty well-versed in how kids learn. ANyway, this is a plan I thought I would try if it were me:

1) hype up that you are going to start doing something new as a family. A few times every day, each kid will get to pick what you all do - their own special time, and they will be in charge for x minutes (5-10 more minutes than your nursing session). Tell dd that she'll get a turn to pick what to do, then ds will.

2) Let dd have her turn to pick something fun - art, dressing up, play dough, reading, etc. Talk up to DS that you expect him to help by (playing quietly, hanging out in sling, etc.) - praise both ds and dd for doing their part. Note the time - either by clock or timer.

3) when time is up, stop the activity, wash up, etc. wasn't that fun? Now it's brother's turn - he wants to nurse and cuddle. Just like ds did XXX during dd's turn, dd now should (read with mom, video, play quietly, etc.)

4) Remind dd of previous unacceptable/violent behavior. Review why it's not okay. Pick a consequence that will result if she's violent or disruptive - something you can do immediately, and that will work for the rest of the nursing session (if she won't stay in time out, it won't work - something like losing a prized toy, going into a pack-n-play, you and ds moving to another room (assuming child-freindly space)) - and tell her that if she does XXX, you will XXX.

5) if she does XXX, stop immediately and carry out your consequence. The key is to do it immediately, and every time, and to talk LATER (not in the moment) about the why and what. DO not apologize for carrying out what you said would happen, but talk about what you hope will happen next time and why. If she isn't violent or disruptive, heap on the pride and praise.

6) when ds's time is up, end the consequence (if any) and recap what happened - what both DS and DD did well, or needs to practice more. Then, let it go. Don't bring up the violent behavior again until you are prepping dd for the next nursing session. Don't take away dd's "turn" as a consequence.

repeat as needed, consistently, throughout the day.

Over time, you can drop the time factor, and eventually hopefully you can stop focusing on whose "turn" it is - but in the short term, it's a very concrete way to remind DD that both kids get mama's love and attention, and to let her feel she is in charge of something, but not everything.

What ever you do, pick a strategy you can live with, talk about it clearly and concretely, and carry it out immediately and every time you see violent or harmful behavior. The closer to the event you respond, and the more consistently, the quicker she will learn that her strategies don't "pay off". ANd, if she seems to thrive on negative attention, change your tactic - if you put her in a play pen or take away a toy or whatever you think will work, do it and don't yell, bargain or apologize *period* until ds is done nursing - DD will learn that you are happy to talk to her and give her attention, but not in response to negative behavior, screaming, etc. and not at the expense of ds's special time

I wish we could just explain to 2 year olds why they shouldn't attack others (and doing so before or after an incident can work) - but until their verbal & mental skills further develop, and their superego eclipses their id, it wouldn't work in the moment. Consequences - both to increase positive behavior and reduce negatve behavior - are necessary until kids get to the point where they understand doing something just because it's the right thing to do - and that's not going to happen by age 2. Just make sure you pick consequences that will work, and that you can live with.

My SIL is also trying a strategy when her dd starts playing rough or getting aggressive with her DS or my DD of saying "You kids need to..." or "You girls need to share and play nicely" - the 8 month olds don't know they are being chastised, and the 2.5 yr old sees playing and its consequneces as a shared activity - and doesn't hear repeatedly "martha don't..." I'm not sure how I feel about this (it's not really being honest about what the problem is, and it won't work for long, but it seems to work now) - but I think it's an interesting approach.

Anyway, I'm sure lots of folks will find faults, but this is what I would do if it were me. Just keep your priorities in mind and trust your judgement about what is best for your kids - nobody knows or loves them like you.

good luck,
becca


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