# 5 pt harness vs booster - why is it safer?



## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

I know I've seen over and over that keeping kids in a 5 point harness as long as possible is safest, but then was reading about the Brio Zento and came across this:

Quote:

_To meet the stringent T-standards only very low forces are allowed on neck, head and spine. The Swedish National Research Institute have, on several occasions, conducted crash tests with heavier children restrained with a 5-point harness and compared with a correctly positioned lap/diagonal belt in a good booster seat. Tests have shown that the forces on head/neck/spine are greater when a heavy child is restrained forward facing in a 5-point harness, especially in a frontal impact. The 5-point harness basically restrains the body too abruptly, resulting in excessively high forces on the neck/head region._
So why is the 5 pt harness safer? Does anyone have any links to share? Thanks.

(here's the link to the page I quoted from: http://www.briocarseats.co.nz/BRIO_NET/Corporate/?b=9 )


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

Interesting info. The videos I have seen of dummies in crashes beg to differ, though. The dummy is practically thrown out of the seat in every direction.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages..._is_Safest.htm


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages..._is_Safest.htm

Well that site just made me bawl and hug my three year old.


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

While I admire the movement they have started with his awful death, being harnessed would not have saved him. His seatbelt malfuncitoning or not being fastened properly to begin with was the problem. A tether anchor probably would have kept him in the car though. There ARE boosters that tether and/or utilize LATCH.

I actually did some more reading on the original topic, and now I'm not so sure it's better to harness at higher weights after age 4 or 5. I'm not ready to ditch the Regent yet, but it has made me wonder. There are some interesting discussions on car-seat.org. That said, in Sweden so many factors are so different, and car safety is so ingrained in all their minds, and their seats rear face to 50lbs!!! In the US we have a major problem bc we cannot keep our kids rfing that long, 35lbs at best which is less than 2 years for some kids...you couldn't put a child that young safely in any kind of booster, so ffing harness is better. If it was mandatory for our kids to rf to age 4 or 5, things would be very different overall.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beeblebrox* 
Well that site just made me bawl and hug my three year old.


Yeah...it does me too. But it was Kyle that made me search my heart out for a 5-point harness for my son in this country as he is big for his age and outgrew his Renaissance by the age of 2. Most people just put their children in boosters then - and its not like we have a big selection of safer car seats here either. But because of that youtube video of Kyle, I searched very hard and asked around all the car seat companies until I found out they do have them in this country - they just seem to hide them in the 'special needs' sections and warehouses where they just seem to stick things they no longer make as no one seemed to want them in our country (so not up to date with the latest safety advice when it comes to car seats - they even sell boosters for 20lbs and up...my son was that at 4 months! ugh!)....

Anyroad... Maybe Brio are just trying to sell that car seat? Im not buying it tbh. I have taken physics and I can picture it in my head...sure a 5-point harness would hold them in there pretty tightly if they did get in an accident...but if your seat belt works like it should, it would as well. Thats the problem though...you cant really count on your seatbelt working properly. For me, id rather my child in the 5-point harness than risk their little body sliding out of a single strap and flying all over the place. Like a poster above said - ive seen the videos and they say differently!


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *True Blue* 
While I admire the movement they have started with his awful death, being harnessed would not have saved him. His seatbelt malfuncitoning or not being fastened properly to begin with was the problem. A tether anchor probably would have kept him in the car though. There ARE boosters that tether and/or utilize LATCH.

.


This child was ejected from the car which is probably why he didn't make it







. IF he'd been harnessed and tethered (most harnessed seats require the use of a top tether or at least have it as an option), this would have probably kept him in the car and may have saved his life. There's no way to know for sure.

I know there is some controversy regarding higher harness limits, but for me it boils down to one thing: With a booster, you have only one line of defense. This is the seatbelt. If it fails, the child may be ejected. If you harness and tether the child, you have two lines of defense: the belt or LATCH anchors as well as the top tether holding the seat in and the harness independant of those holding the child in. To me, it just seems safer to have 2 instead of 1.

My 6 year old is just over 40lbs and is in a Radian 65. I plan to keep him harnessed as long as possible.


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Yeah...it does me too. But it was Kyle that made me search my heart out for a 5-point harness for my son in this country as he is big for his age and outgrew his Renaissance by the age of 2. Most people just put their children in boosters then - and its not like we have a big selection of safer car seats here either. But because of that youtube video of Kyle, I searched very hard and asked around all the car seat companies until I found out they do have them in this country - they just seem to hide them in the 'special needs' sections and warehouses where they just seem to stick things they no longer make as no one seemed to want them in our country (so not up to date with the latest safety advice when it comes to car seats - they even sell boosters for 20lbs and up...my son was that at 4 months! ugh!)....

Anyroad... Maybe Brio are just trying to sell that car seat? Im not buying it tbh. I have taken physics and I can picture it in my head...sure a 5-point harness would hold them in there pretty tightly if they did get in an accident...but if your seat belt works like it should, it would as well. Thats the problem though...you cant really count on your seatbelt working properly. For me, id rather my child in the 5-point harness than risk their little body sliding out of a single strap and flying all over the place. Like a poster above said - ive seen the videos and they say differently!

So did you get the Brio? Or something else?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

18 kg = ~40 lbs.
25 kg = ~55 lbs.

" If your child exceeds 18 kg but is younger than four years of age we strongly recommend you keep your child rear-facing in the 5-point harness."

Yeah... a seat that rear-faces to 40 lbs. would have my 4-year-old still rear-facing. But, there's no such animal here. And they're saying that a child should RF to at least four years even if they EXCEED that weight limit.

So... maybe the results of the Britax/Sunshine Kids/Graco crash tests are different. Or, maybe this applies universally, not just to the Brio seats. But one thing that you can't test easily for with dummies is improper use. A five-point harness will keep a kid positioned correctly in their seat, regardless of their maturity level. Using a seatbelt (with or without a booster) is giving the child more ongoing responsibility for keeping themselves safe in the car.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

If you talk to Kyle's mom, she'll tell you how a little girl got into almost the exact same crash as they did and was ejected just like Kyle, but in her harnessed seat. She lived to tell her story though.









In Sweden, they do follow the rfing straight to booster most times. People who have done studies etc in the US have not been able to replicate the Swedish findings, or at least to any degree where it would make a difference. Race car drivers use 5pt harnesses and go much faster than we do and crash more often in a lot of cases. None of them have been internally decapitated afaik. There is also the thought about maturity. What's worse, risking a possible neck injury or a child who won't sit still in a seat and is possilby not even using the seat correctly at the time of crash leading to much worse injuries? All of these have to be taken into account. My 45# 5.5yo is still harnessed and will be for somet ime.


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

.........Thanks for responses!
I am familiar with the KDM site (and have refferred a few people to it)....which is also why I planned on using harness as long as possible ... but then came across that little blurb and started questioning. I can see the kid being held in place better w/ the harness....but I could also see how that could put more forces on their neck specifically when their head goes forward.
We have a Radian80 and a Marathon and planned to use those to their limits....right now DS is rf, 21 mos, 28 lbs, 34 inches...... so we've got awhile yet before a booster would even be considered anyway.....and I want to know that we are keeping him as safe as possible at every stage.

I'd like to know what seat the girl was in when she got ejected!
Kyle's case was definitely not typical and it seems like any type of seat would be very unsafe if the seatbelt was faulty...... except of course if it used latch. And I know some booster seats can be hooked in w/ latch while the kid uses the seatbelt, but what good does that do if the seatbelt fails?

I have used the racecar analogy myself to argue for harnesses being safer......but at the same time you have to be careful comparing a young child to an adult, our bodies aren't going to do the same things under the same force conditions..... racecar drivers have big torsos, little heads, and solid bone structure, while the LO's have big heads and smaller torsos...and lots of cartilage.

Of course the incorrectly used booster would certainly be a factor too, and even most adults don't sit in seatbelts right (myself included); but my ds often doesn't sit in his harness quite right either, no matter how far I tighten he's usually got an arm under the straps, or sticking out between them, from trying to get out while riding.

......

so still confused??


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

You might check Tiffany's page, I think she does a good job explaining it. http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...oolpreteen.htm

W/ racecar drivers, we're not talking about small children here though, we're talking about 4-5yos. They are going to have much stronger bones at this age and their head won't be as proportionately large as it once had been. While it is slightly different, we're talking about 4-5yo kids who are 40+# since we're using Swedish data and they routinely keep children rfing till 50#. If I could keep AJ rfing to 50#, he could go straight into a booster, as he's 45# now at 5.5yo, he'd be 6+ then.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beeblebrox* 
So did you get the Brio? Or something else?

We have the Britax elite...which in this country was the ONLY 5-point harness I could find in a higher weight limit (in this country) - that is up to 55lbs (the average size of a 6 year old)...however at 3 hes 45lbs...so he may not get to use it for that long! However, we also do not have the anchor and tether in this country either...so I wouldnt be able to find a 5-point harness car seat any higher than 55lbs as it really needs to be anchor and tethered then for it to continue to be safe. ...It could be done....and I dont usually put a price on safety but for me to be able to do that...I would have illegally import something like the Regent into this country (which would cost £200 - I know, ive thought about it







lol)...but then we would also have to buy a brand new car (which would cost about 14K - without all our other crazy taxes here we have to get for our cars







lol) and then send the seats back to the manufacturer and ask for the ones with the anchor thingy bit on them and then get them reinstalled (which would cost ...I dont really know, I gave up at this point lol).

I guess I havnt done enough research on why a 5-point harness for a higher weight limit would be a _bad_ thing...But that article alone sounds kinds fishy. Its not like they are lying, but they could be telling half truths for all I know. Like with the tests done...well, did they have the car seat anchored and tethered in the tests? Were the car seats suitable for higher weight limits to begin with or just the average second class car seat that has a weight limit of 35lbs? etc etc...

I always figure a 5-point harness car seat is pretty much like a helmet for my child. Wearing a helmet when riding your bike may not protect you from flying off that bike when you hit a rock, but its stuck to your head and will protect what it is meant do. My sons car seat will do all it can for his body if that were the case in a car accident as well.


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## azmomtoone (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
You might check Tiffany's page, I think she does a good job explaining it. http://www.freewebs.com/sacredjourne...oolpreteen.htm

.

Thank you, I like this link.....still checking it out.....
What I kept seeing in the other video (on KDM site, and others) is that it seemed like the kid in the booster seat went forward much further, but his head and body went together, while hte harnessed kid moved less overall but his head seemed to jerk .... (plus the obvious size difference between the children makes it hard to compare)

The video on this link is clearer though, you can definitely see the torque on the neck of the kid in the booster in the frontal impact........yikes.

The side impact is a bigger difference it seems too.... even w/ (what looks like) side impact protection on the booster, the kid still smashing into the door......instead of staying cradled in his seat like the harnessed kid.

......the other thing I'm like about that site is all the pictures of kids way older still rf........most places that show extended rf are 1 or 2.....several 4 yr olds there rf (in US seats even!) (granted smaller than avg kids it seems but still)

thanks again everyone for the advice..... car seats are so confusing!


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm pretty sure Evan is on her rfing pics, he's almost 4 now and still rfing. I think AJ is in her harnessed pics.







Tiffany is great, she posts here if you have any questions you can pm her. She's a very busy mama though!


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