# im being investigated



## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

i just checked the mail today and got a letter from the state that im under ivestigation because of "community concerns regarding your children."

its dated the day after i had elise.
im trying to call the number on the letter but getting no answer.
im really freaked out.
anyone have any advice. i feel like im going to pass out or something, im terrified.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Wow, scary! It didn't say anything else? You poor thing!


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## 2happymamas (May 11, 2005)

Is there a number to call or anything else? No matter what, I would be at the door of the office of the place that sent the letter at 9:00 Monday morning. If you cannot do that, place a call ASAP to the office.

Do you have any idea what this could be about? I am very sorry you are going though this. I guess you will just have to see what happens and do what you need to do to make this go away.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Are you sure it is legit? Normally when they want to investigate a person comes to your home within 24 hours of the report. You might get a letter after that.

I'd make sure your house is clean and that you have some sort of crib or play pen set up so you can say the baby sleeps there.

Hang in there
Kara


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## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

Take a deep breath, Mama. Keep us posted, try to stay calm.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

If they thought there was a serious problem, they would have already paid you a visit. I agree that you need to go down there ASAP Monday.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

well they came by shortly after elise came home and talked to justin. they didnt tell him anything or even leave a number. they wanted to talk to me but i was asleep and they just left. i didnt really know what to think about that.
it seemed dumb since they could have just talked to him.
and i know my children wont be taken away, well not really. since were native american they have to go through all my relatives and my mom lives next door. but im still freaking out. my plan is to find out what the complaint was about and then research the heck out of it and give the social worker print outs...
its hard to stay calm and formulate a plan when theres a threat to your children. intent doesnt mean much, its still terrifying.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Oh wow.

I'm glad to hear that they have to go thru your relatives before taking kids, and that your mom is so close by. That's a relief.

CPS/CAS (here in Canada) scare the crap outta me too. I hope this gets settled quickly and easily.


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Reading through your old posts I am sure they were called because you attempted a UC and refused tests and stuff. The hospital probably called it medical neglect when they called. Did your dp tell them that you are native and mention religious beliefs? If so, they might just go away. If they do come back do you have an Elder who can back you up on your beliefs? If they do come back act as calm as humanly possible and tell them you don't need their services.

Hang in there
Kara


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DBZ*
Reading through your old posts I am sure they were called because you attempted a UC and refused tests and stuff. The hospital probably called it medical neglect when they called. Did your dp tell them that you are native and mention religious beliefs? If so, they might just go away. If they do come back do you have an Elder who can back you up on your beliefs? If they do come back act as calm as humanly possible and tell them you don't need their services.

Hang in there
Kara

well if its that some good research should back me up.
and i really wish i could play the native card on this one but i was raised in kansas and i dont know any elders, our reservation is in arizona. im the oposite of religious. and im really really bad at lying and pretending. one of the main reasons im scared.


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## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

get a lawyer and don't talk to the CPS person without your lawyer present. use your right to remain silent. the way they "get" most mamas is by chitchatting, the mama thinks she can just explain away the whole thing and meanwhile the caseworker is getting more and more information...

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Child_Pr...arentguide.asp
there is a good site for parents regarding CPS
http://www.fightcps.com/
also
http://nhdcyf.info/first_contact.html


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Okay- number one- do NOT agree to anything without court orders. Do not let them in your front door without a warrant. Do NOT let them see your kids without a court order. Do not have more than a small-talk conversation with them without a warrant AND a lawyer. Get a lawyer now. A good one. You do not have to agree to anything if they don't have warrants. PM Tummy- she can link you with more information. There are several moms around here who have had to fight CPS.

good luck!

-Angela


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

okay i just talked to my moms friend who is a social worker(not in any official capacity)... she knows the lady invesigating me... she told me since everyone believes having a baby at home, let alone unassisted, is extremely risky that child abuse will be substantiated. and it wont matter that i spent the majority of my pregnancy desparately trying to find prenatal care and a midwife, it wont matter that so many people were tied up in rules that they couldnt see a woman for a vbac unless she had 'proven' herself, or they werent 'allowing' vbacs since the hospital banned them. nevermind that ubac isnt illegal... its so scary that the hospital can say whatever they want and be believed because theyre the hospital... while talking with the friend ive decided i wont talk without an attorney because if i try to explain the circumstances i sound like a conspiracy theorist. ugh!


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## skj474 (Jul 19, 2002)

I just wanted to send you some positive thought and vibes


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## pumpkin (Apr 8, 2003)

You are really in lawrence, ks. I can't believe this is happening there. My families own experience with "the authorities" in douglas county, is that they bend over backwards to avoid doing anything that would be considered authoritarian or conservative. To the extent that my sister had to go into hiding to avoid a stalker that they would not prosecute because he was mentally ill. Even the psychiatrists at the hospital where the police kept bringing him were ridiculously permissive and let him go early from all his psych holds because properly medicated he was perfectly reasonable. The problem was that without supervision he would not take his medication. (We only got proper intervention when he went after my parents in a different county in an attempt to find my sister).

I'm so sorry. I don't really have any good advice. Just wanted to offer my well wishes. Sorry for the tangent. I will say, that it never hurts to get a lawyer. Even if just to get sound advice about how to proceed.


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## minicooper (May 7, 2003)

I found this easy to read and understand.

It's a great site. Read it before they come.

Good Luck.


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

Wish I lived a little farther north, I'm in Wichita...I think you've got the right idea to not talk without a lawyer. I understand where you're coming from, but you're right, anytime I talk to someone mainstream about my ideas, they get the impression sometimes that I'm a nut full of conspiracy theories, and that's not the impression you want to give cps.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

That's horrible!







You must be scared out of your mind. It took me a little bit of reading to figure out what UC meant, lol.

I think the advice on this thread is sound.....lawyer up, and just in case, clean your house top to bottom, make sure your dc are always dressed head to toe, dishes washed and put away, no dirty laundry, etc, until this blows over.

Would I be completely out of bounds to suggest running away to Canada if the water gets too hot?


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
I think the advice on this thread is sound.....lawyer up, and just in case, clean your house top to bottom, make sure your dc are always dressed head to toe, dishes washed and put away, no dirty laundry, etc, until this blows over.









you mean all that is really possible!? i better call in for reinforcements... ugh they came by a little after the microburst and our yard was trashed. down trees and peoples trash. we still havent gotten around to cleaning it all up. ack

pumpkin, i agree it is a bit odd for a town to liberal but the bith environment here is crap. well if you want a vbac it is. whick is also strange for such a liberal town...


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Lawyer up, hire someone to come clean your house top to bottom if you can afford it (call for help if you can't) set up a 'nursery' and make it look used (or put a crib in your bedroom, again, make it look used)

I'm so sorry, I can't even imagine how scary that must be...Sending tons of positve thoughts and prayers your way.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I agree with everyone that said lawyer up and CLEAN YOUR HOUSE....Make sure you have food stocked in your pantry, kitchen is clean, no dirty laundry, place for the baby to sleep, clothes for the baby, etc.
If you have pets, make sure you pick up all the dog-doo or whatever......
I'm a foster parent and I know what they look for when they go out and investigate....I'll be praying for you....so sorry you're going through this


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## bellona (Feb 17, 2006)

Really? They could possibly take your kids away for a uc??

Crap. I was hoping if I had another one this would be the way to go.

Maybe I'll have to look into fudging some precipitous (sp?) labor. "Huh, I don't know what happened. I had a contraction, I was on my way out the door and out popped the baby!"

Seriously, this is sad. My thoughts are with you. No one scares me like CPS. I have nightmares about them and I"ve never even had a run in. They're like those government agencies that operate outside the law. Screw constitutional rights. Get a good lawyer and don't let those awful people in your house without a warrant!!

(I second moving to Canada if things get too hot







)


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

You don't have to leave the country- CPS can't cross state lines.... just FYI... useful information.... know anyone close by in a different state?

-Angela


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy*
Make sure you have ... place for the baby to sleep

i know this is an issue in some places but here in lawrence even the mainstream parents cosleep. and besides cribs are astronomical. then again....it may be a good excuse to finally get that amby...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellona*
Really? They could possibly take your kids away for a uc??
Crap. I was hoping if I had another one this would be the way to go.

in some places they can get you for cosleeping, extended breastfeeding or any number of other things they usually know nothing about. when ignorance is prevalent nothing you do is safe. dont let ignorant jerks have a say in how you birth









Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna*
know anyone close by in a different state?

dp and i have family and california and arizona... i hope it doesnt come to that because i hate the southwest.









at the moment im suprisingly less concerned with myself and my situation but with future women who may second guess themselves. i dont want to let them set some kind of precedent where they can bully women out of having vbacs or ubacs or whatever birth they want. im getting really pissed off now. i was talking to my moms social worker friend about what i could do to help change something....
im thinking my mom's friend will look good for me too, being a social worker and she has had me watch her children and even asked me for medical advice








ive been doing laundry as fast as i can and even got the dishes done, tomorrow the reinforcements are comming.
well at least it came on a friday so i have the weekend to plot...

i plan to make a stink...a very polite legal stink...


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat*
iat the moment im suprisingly less concerned with myself and my situation but with future women who may second guess themselves. i dont want to let them set some kind of precedent where they can bully women out of having vbacs or ubacs or whatever birth they want. im getting really pissed off now. i was talking to my moms social worker friend about what i could do to help change something....

Wow!!! I don't know your personal religious/spiritual beliefs, but I believe that everything happens for a reason, and perhaps the reason you're going through this is to protect other women from dealing with this crap in the future.

Also, just so you know, going the "oops the baby came too fast" route isn't always "safe" either- I went to the hospital 2 hours after my UC with that line and we ended up with a perfectly healthy newborn in the NICU on IV antibiotics for a week because "he was born outside the sterile hospital." Had he been born in the hospital he would have roomed in with me for 2 days and then we could have gone home together (but they also would have cut his cord before it stopped pulsing and I probably wouldn't have gotten to squat while pushing, so who knows what complications that might have caused?) And the ER dr called CPS on us. They never took my kids, thank G-d, but they were on our backs for months, and I now have a record of being "indicated for child abuse or neglect" because of his birth. However, they closed the case because "he isn't going to go through childbirth again."


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## bellona (Feb 17, 2006)

Scary, scary stuff. How do you find out if it's 'allowed' in your state?


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## EVC (Jan 29, 2006)

I hate to post this, but maybe it's relevent?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=434162


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EVC*
I hate to post this, but maybe it's relevent?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=434162

ugh! well that helps me keep my fire...
something needs to be done. this is fricken rediculous!


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Is there a medical anthropologist at KU that would testify on your behalf? You might want to ask around and see if anyone there has any "official" knowledge about birth or Native American beliefs? So sorry you are going through this.


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellona*
Scary, scary stuff. How do you find out if it's 'allowed' in your state?

im sorry i had to laugh... its legal everywhere... they cant have universal rules surrounding birth like that, its too unpredictable! they dont go around locking up women who didnt get to the hospital in time. i really debated whether or not to post this because i feared it would push women away from uc. it just sad to think they have any power over us. theyre just bullies... and i for one am not going to let them take my luch money


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Nope not illegal anywhere. And they can still take your child away for it, even though no harm has been done.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat*
i plan to make a stink...a very polite legal stink...

Good for you.


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

omg this is scary...I'm sorry for any mama who has to deal w/ this


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## bellona (Feb 17, 2006)

I realize it's not illegal anywhere, I just wanted to know if I possibly lived in a more uc friendly state. My luck I'd guess not.

I don't think this would necessarily influence my decision to uc if we had another, but it would influence the level of discresion.

Maybe if it comes up I should just keep it to myself...play along like I'm going to the hospital birth and, just to make it look good, call the hospital between pushes and let them know I've had a couple of contractions about 10 minutes apart so I might be in later.









I'm really sorry you're going through this. (Though it's made me look at my house in a different light while picking up today







). Please keep us updated...it seems that if anyone will handle it well you will. Good luck


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

If you ask me, there should be investigations of women who choose 'elective c-sections'.....planned drug fests and interventions, so they don't have to be 'inconvenienced by labor'!!! They should 'investigate's hospitals that do more c-sections for doctors who want to make their tee time, make it home for Christmas dinner, etc.

This stuff just makes me angry!!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Insane.

If I have another baby, I can go hospital or home (I can probably get an illegal midwife, but no guarantees).

If I have the baby at the hospital, I'm pretty much guaranteed another c-section...which means at least a week of being physically incapable of looking after my other children (at least the two youngest). The Ministry (local CPS) would have no problem with that at all.

But, if I chose to homebirth, in order to be able to care for my existing children after the birth (among other reasons), then they could jump down my throat with both feet. That's just so illogical and stupid that it makes my head hurt. And, to think familes are torn apart by this kind of crap _every_ day!


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Agh. This ticks me off. I don't understand how in a country that claims to love freedom so much and claims to value freedom of religion how they can ever persecute someone for not buying into the medical system. You may not be a religious person, but one does not have to be in a specific religion to not believe in the medical establishment. This is so unconstitutional it makes me CRAZY every time I hear of the courts attempting to interviene in what is essentially an issue of someone choosing not to buy a doctors services.
My very own sister said she would call the cops on me if I didn't get my kid care if he had lukemia. . . You know what I believe (not being much on religion myself) that IF there is a god s/he wouldn't want me to keep my kid alive when s/he is most obviously doing his/her thing.








It stinks that I don't have a specific religion on which to fall back.








A person should have rights to live without any medical care if he or she wishes.








Sorry to rant, but this is one of my biggest issues with this country.









I wish you the best of luck and I would so be there helping you clean (aka- look like the "ideal" american family) if I lived closer.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR R


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

ugh and if thats not bad enough now due to the stress dp and i are fighting...
he has sunday nights off but went in because he was scheduled, which means his boss asked if he wanted to work sunday and he said yes. and he is supposed to come home at 6 am but never does. he goes in for work at 9:30pm and comes home at noon! complaining of being tired! and if i say something he accuses me of wanting him to quit his job. its just rediculous.
tonight he started going off on how he has to work to pay for all my 'crap'...yeah cloth diapers and baby clothes...my crap. sheesh
the whole while sandrel is following me asking a question every nanosecond and elise is gassy and pooping everywhere and pissed off about it.
im starting to doubt my superhero abilities.


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## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

old


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot*
If you ask me, there should be investigations of women who choose 'elective c-sections'.....planned drug fests and interventions, so they don't have to be 'inconvenienced by labor'!!! They should 'investigate's hospitals that do more c-sections for doctors who want to make their tee time, make it home for Christmas dinner, etc.

This stuff just makes me angry!!!


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Poxybat..

#1..You may want to think agian aobut posting every detail on here.. not being mean, just remember this is a public site, anyone read what you type. Some things can be used against you. Not saying to not vent on here, (Ive been there {here} and done that. Learned my lesson









#2.. read this site.. EVERY WORD!
Parent's Guide to the Sytem by Cheryl T Barnes
http://familyrightsassociation.com/c...parents_guide/


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

BTW, your inbox is full


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tummy*
Poxybat..

#1..You may want to think agian aobut posting every detail on here.. not being mean, just remember this is a public site, anyone read what you type. Some things can be used against you. Not saying to not vent on here, (Ive been there {here} and done that. Learned my lesson









i think if i was found on this forum it would give them dirt. that terrifies me... freaking thought police.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tummy*
#2.. read this site.. EVERY WORD!
Parent's Guide to the Sytem by Cheryl T Barnes
http://familyrightsassociation.com/c...parents_guide/

got it off the other thread and im reading it voraciously.


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

oh mama, how scary! you are in my thoughts and prayers. this country is just crazy.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Hugs mama. Be strong!

I wanted to thank you foe posting about this. I'm considering a UC with my next babe and your story has not turned me off from going UC but has taught me what I need to do for myself to protect myself from CPS. I have learned so much from reading this thread about what to document and how to "dot my i's" and "cross my t's". Thank you for being brave and posting about this.

Best of luck! Your family it in my thoughts!


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

: this is such scary stuff. and u r so right mama to set an example for mama's who wont be able to fight and not have a place to advice them.

i cant believe what i am reading and this is sooo wrong when it isnt even illegal.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee*







: this is such scary stuff. and u r so right mama to set an example for mama's who wont be able to fight and not have a place to advice them.

i cant believe what i am reading and this is sooo wrong when it isnt even illegal.

Wow agreed. I am so sorry this is happening. Please keep us updated. I will keep you in my thoughts. Best wishes I hope all goes well for you.


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## lillake (Apr 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot*
If you ask me, there should be investigations of women who choose 'elective c-sections'.....planned drug fests and interventions, so they don't have to be 'inconvenienced by labor'!!! They should 'investigate's hospitals that do more c-sections for doctors who want to make their tee time, make it home for Christmas dinner, etc.

This stuff just makes me angry!!!

I couldn't agree more!!!


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## Zamber (May 4, 2005)

This is just sad














:







. Just stand your ground mama and you should be fine. There is nothing illegal about having a UC.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

This is so horrible. How is it that you can be investigated for having a UC but it is perfectly acceptable to have an "elective c-section"? Shouldn't those mothers be investegated also?

I don't have any advice for you but I am thinking of you.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

"elective c-section" is a "standard of care" within a hospital setting.

A UC is anything but.

Now, if you had had the baby in the car on the way to the hospital, there would be no investigation even if it was the cab driver that caught it!


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## Lynnseedoil (Aug 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Now, if you had had the baby in the car on the way to the hospital, there would be no investigation even if it was the cab driver that caught it!









Yeah, and then they put the cab driver on the news like he's some freaking hero.


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama*
Lawyer up, hire someone to come clean your house top to bottom if you can afford it (call for help if you can't) set up a 'nursery' and make it look used (or put a crib in your bedroom, again, make it look used)

I'm so sorry, I can't even imagine how scary that must be...Sending tons of positve thoughts and prayers your way.

I completely agree with this our family is going through something similar right now. I am so sorry.


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## habibekindheart (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm so sorry, proxy. We're going through something similar right now...it's not fun. These women have some good advice...clean the house, don't tell them ANYTHING, fight, fight, fight. You do need a good attorney, but family attorneys in our area at least require about a 5k retainer. It's insane. I'll be praying for you and your family. Take care of yourself so you don't get emotionally worn out. *hugs*


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Sending







:


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

lawyer up. put the legal beagle between you and cps. keep them there.

set up the crib area. or at least a bassinette, and, well, you don't have to use it! It is available for use. Or make sure you have a copy of Mothering's cosleeping issue in your bedstand if you're cosleeping! Also get the ones on safety of home birth. I don't think they've run a UC one yet.

Don't use Compleat Mother. That mag is just a little too out there for most people. Mothering can be picked up at some magazine stores so that gives it legitimacy. I'm still missing some that I loaned to a social worker!


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## habibekindheart (Feb 7, 2005)

She actually read it? The social workers I've dealt with have a hard time even reading court orders. I'm half convinced they can't read at all...


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Now, if you had had the baby in the car on the way to the hospital, there would be no investigation even if it was the cab driver that caught it!









Yeah, but they could still hold your baby hostage in the NICU for a week on IV antibiotics he doesn't need because it was born outside the "sterile" hospital.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

I just don't get it. Women for 1000's of years had uc and homebirths and now all of sudden we're incapable of it? Hey, I had my dc in a hospital- don't think I'm knocking it. My ds would have died without their intervention. I just think we need to bring a little more common sense to the table. We are the land of the free and brave, right?

Hang in there, lawyer up, clean top to bottom (







or is it front to back), and don't let the devils in without a warrant.


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## papayapetunia (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *habibekindheart*
She actually read it? The social workers I've dealt with have a hard time even reading court orders. I'm half convinced they can't read at all...

True dat. In my line of work, I read the petitions that social workers write. It's like spell-check hasn't been invented yet. I don't know, maybe they have like 15 minutes to do an hour's worth of work, but it causes a lot of problems. Their reports are usually full of errors.


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## habibekindheart (Feb 7, 2005)

LOL I just stumbled across a letter written by a foster care worker...the concept of tense and proper verb usage is obviously completely over his head. It made my eyes bleed.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I was just wondering how it was going and if there is an update


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## DannysMomma (Oct 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *poxybat*
pumpkin, i agree it is a bit odd for a town to liberal but the bith environment here is crap. well if you want a vbac it is. whick is also strange for such a liberal town...

not just for a vbac ... they'd be wise to support midwives more actively and give them hospital priviledges too. as it is they're losing a LOT of business to kc and topeka... doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. we need to raise a big stink.









I hope things look up for you soon. I'm sure it won't come to anything though. Well. I hope anyway.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I can't comment on the OP's case, because the only things Iknow about it are what she has posted on here;

but I do work in the hospital in Lawrence. I can comment on their policies and their point of view; or at least, from what I think might be their point of view.

While I certainly feel that some aspects of the care and behaviour she has described are unacceptable and further alienate natural childbirthers from hospital births; look at their point of view, as well--a woman come in in labor, no medical records, no prenatal care. Sometimes women choose to avoid prenatal care because they are hiding addictions and/or physical abuse of themselves or thier children; this is seen much more often than a woman simply making the informed choice to decline prenatal care. So of course they are going to initiate a social work consult.

And in fact they must. Our admissions computer system automatically initiates a consult if someone doesn't meet certain requirements--routine care being one of them. Actually, I feel that on the whole our social work department is really amazing. They spend a heck of alot of time making sure that people know what resources are out there for them. If someone doesn't have routine care, they are going to try to find out why, and see if they can help them get it (because, we assume you *do* want it, especially if you have a chronic condition that continually lands you in the hospital--diabetes, for example).

I don't know all the details, like I said, of the OPs predicament. What I do know is that if you come in guns blazing, refuse a bunch of treatments, don't have a primary care physician, or indicate that you can't afford care; it would be negligent of us to NOT address those things. The fine line is determining when people are intelligently choosing things like no primary care and UC, and when they are doing it out of mental illness, lack of access to a physician, domestic abuse, or drug and alcohol addiction. Because, unfortunately, we DO see these things, and in the litigious society we work in, we have to cover ourselves. And really, it IS helpful to many patients, to learn about the community resources. We have seen, on my floor (the medical floor) a reduction in our repeat hospitalizations for our patients with chronic conditions, in part due to the efforts of our social work department. But of course, we can't be everything to everyone. It just doens't work that way, unfortunately.

I recently had a patient that looked like she had been beaten with a baseball bat. Seriously. Grapefruit sized bruises on her back, bum, legs, and arms. She was in with alcohol detox, and she told me she got them from falling. I told her it looked like someone had beat her, but she denied it. Since she said no, no one beat her, should I have left it at that? I didn't. I initiated a social work consult, in part because I feel like I am not qualified to address this (was she beaten, if so, what resources are available to her), and yet I felt like it needed to be addressed. Maybe she *did* just fall--she has an unsteady gait, because of her constant alcohol consumption; and she vehemently denied abuse. But I am in this profession because I love people, and I want to help them, and I also know that people, for many reasons, deny or misrepresent themselves sometimes.

Sometimes, and hopefully it is the situation this time, the social worker wants to ensure that the patient is making decisions based on an intelligent, logical reasoning. That she is refusing care and treatment for herself and her child, not because she has abuse issues, or money issues, or mental illness (and we see this stuff far too often) but because she has simply thought about it and decided that forgoing these things were what was best for herself and her family.

I hope that this clarified things a bit, and gives you a bit of the hospital staff's perspective. Again, not that I am excusing any disrespectful behavior that the OP may have experienced. I'm just clarifying why social work might get involved and that it may have nothing to do with a judgement call on the evils of UC; but rather concern for a person's access to care. We are caught in a difficult position sometimes. When to just let things go, and when to pursue them. Think of Andrea Yate--the medical community got some flak on that, and probably rightly so, in terms of follow up on her depression. What if the OP was the next Andrea Yates? What if she has a mental illness, doesn't take her meds, and thinks her infant is satan, and is going to cut its arms off? What if she didn't seek care because she is addicted to crack and didn't want anyone to know? What if her partner is a complete ass who is controlling and abusive, and didn't allow her to seek prenatal care, out of fear of losing control of her and fear of his abuse being discovered? These are the fears that we in the medical field have; of this mom or this baby coming in next time in a body bag, or being life flighted to KU Med because of something that we could have followed up on, but didn't.


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## habibekindheart (Feb 7, 2005)

I do understand where you're coming from. However, the mentality that, in that line of work, so many people are at risk of mental illness, drug abuse, w/e (because they see it far more often than the regular population and their opinion is skewed), so everyone should be treated like they're crazy/have a problem until _they prove otherwise_ is quite disrespectful and does hurt people, as we've seen in this case.

It shouldn't be my responsibility to have to explain to everyone and their grandmother (esp. people who have the power to harm my children) that I'm not crazy or drug addicted just because I choose UC birth. Atop that, if I need any services, I know exactly where to find them anyway.

I know that social workers are used to dealing with the 'lowest' segment of the population, but that doesn't mean they have the right to treat everyone that way until they prove differently. It does people a real injustice and it's rather pompous.

It is unfortunate that, no matter what we do, people will still get hurt, hurt themselves, hurt others, and die. However, it is a fact of life, and at some point we have to stop infringing on peoples' rights and lives to the point where WE compromise their safety to keep them safe with no justification. There is no way we can save everyone. I wish there was. But if we're going to try, we should take the time to determine if there's really a problem by actually caring and showing compassion and wisdom, instead of just dishing people off on the social workers with their 'guilty until proven innocent' mentality. I realize that, in one's line of work, it's not as easy as spending the time to befriend someone, w/e, but a lot of people call now and think never...convinced that they're doing the right thing putting everyone who meets any risk factors through 'screening' against their will. It's not okay. I do have rights. I don't want them trampled on a witch hunt in an area without a lot of concrete data. Heck, we can't even figure out what a perfect parent is and we've been trying for thousands of years. Last generation's perfect parent is this generation's child abuser. We don't know everything.


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## bczmama (Jan 30, 2006)

Of course, none of your post addresses the matter really at the heart of the issue -- liability and the expenses of being sued. People are going to do what they need to do to protect themselves from being sued or brought up on ethics charges, and the hospital is going to do what it needs to do to protect its reputation and limit liability. Unless you are willing to accept a very tight cap on med/mal damages, you're going to have to put up with pushy social workers and not necessarily getting the procedures you want how you want them.


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## habibekindheart (Feb 7, 2005)

and that would be why *I* don't go to hospitals...


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lorijds*
I can't comment on the OP's case, because the only things Iknow about it are what she has posted on here;

but I do work in the hospital in Lawrence. I can comment on their policies and their point of view; or at least, from what I think might be their point of view.

So let me see if I understand this: the social work department _should_ be swayed by the OP's explanation that she avoided pre-natal care because of a reasoned objection to medicalized childbirth? Because if their main concern is that the mother is too poor to afford pre-natal care, is avoiding prenatal care because of drug/alcohol issues, then they should be reassured by the OP's desire to care for herself in an alternative fashion?

But they won't be, will they? Because if the standard is "got prenatal care", are they going to understand an ideological objection to the available prenatal care? I mean, even with this understanding, how can she proceed and come out of this in one piece?

I don't blame the social workers for being cautious, I just wonder what this mom can do to avoid being tagged as neglectful.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
So let me see if I understand this: the social work department _should_ be swayed by the OP's explanation that she avoided pre-natal care because of a reasoned objection to medicalized childbirth? Because if their main concern is that the mother is too poor to afford pre-natal care, is avoiding prenatal care because of drug/alcohol issues, then they should be reassured by the OP's desire to care for herself in an alternative fashion?

But they won't be, will they?

I really can't comment on what the OB floor is like, but I know on the medical floor within the same hospital, there is a big push in regards to recognizing a patients right to decline care and/or procedures.

I can also tell you that right now there are some pissed off doctors who would love to attend VBACs in this town, but can't. The hospital doesn't officially NOT do them according to them; but their requirements are such that it is unrealistic for anyone to actually do them. I am quite sure that if this is presented as a case of, well, I did not want to be forced into major abdominal surgery, so I attempted to stay home/do it on my own; well, this is the argument against mandatory VBACs that some docs have used. That it will force some women to stay home and attempt to birth on their own rather than submit to another c-section. There aregoing to be docs in this town who are going to jump all over that, saying "See, see, THIS is what happens when we don't offer VBACS!"

Regardless of whether this is the reason why the OP decided to UC, I'm sure a segment of physicians with OB priviledges are going to be throwing it in the face of the chief of staff and the administration. I hope they do.


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## dlcmama (Apr 9, 2006)

I don't think that this should call for an investigation because of a choice of labor. It's kinda silly and their focus should be elsewhere where it's needed. JMO


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

I doubt that she is being investigated for choice of labor, if it were a situation of her simply having a UC. I know of people in the area who have had UCs who were not investigated. I suspect because in the end she did seek care that stimulated the investigation. Also, remember, there are two sides to every story; there could be information that we do not have. My intent of posting was mainly to try to provide a little insight into that other perspective.

Anyhow, I hope that everything goes well for the OP, and that she is able to enjoy her new baby. I'm glad you had a VBAC. Good for you!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

I hope everything is okay.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

You might call up the Mid American All Indian Center in Wichita and see if they can be of any help. Dh's best friend is Cherokee and I will ask him if he has any ideas, but it would be a few days.


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## ~MoonGypsy~ (Aug 21, 2006)

Poxy, what ever happened?


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## ~MoonGypsy~ (Aug 21, 2006)




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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

: It's been a few months, hope things didn't go south...







:

Everyone is pulling for you, Poxy...


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