# shell shocked and need advise and beware, this is long.



## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

There are those of you who write about having a "spirited" child.....I have one of those. I'm homeschooling her because of it.
Last night she did something really intense and that left me bewildered and doubting all my parenting "skills". I need advise, but because of the state I'm in today I beg you to be gentle.








Yesterday Ariah asked me if she could go to my sister's house to stay with her cousin Savannah overnight. Both girls are 12 going on 13. My sister lives an hour away.
Apparently my sister left both girls to babysit for an hour while she went to rent movies. The girls they were to watch are 9 and 5.
The 9 year old called her mom at the movie store and said that Savannah and Ariah had gone down to their barn and they weren't coming back up to the house-so Jenny tries Ariah on her cell phone, dosen't get an answer, and flys home to see what's going on.
The girls are gone. Now remember, this is pretty late at night for girls to be missing too.....it's like 11ish at night.

Ariah has a boyfriend who lives in my sisters town, and I tell my sister to check his house. Now I realize that Ariah is VERY young for a boyfriend, so let me quickly interject that we live an HOUR away, so boyfriend really consists of having a telephone relationship. When she goes to my sisters house, my sister and I have a policy that they don't get together there either due to her feeling uncomfortable trying to supervise that situation....doin my best with it .
So I tell her to check Ariah's boyfriend's house, she does and calls me to tell me that the girls are not there either.
I tell her at this point to call the police, as the girls have been missing for two hours-and my sister lives out in the middle of the country.
My sister is convienced that the girls are INSIDE the boyfriends house and that's where the police start looking. His dad has been in bed and wouldn't really know....so they check their whole house...still no girls, and Ariah's not answering her cell phone.
I then get a really cryptic call on my cell phone. The person on the phone tells me that they know where the girls are, they are with an adult male and he is taking them out of state. The girls are in the car with him.







: So I literally freak out (I swear to god I was about to have a heart attack) and now there is an Amber alert out full force for our girls, with police from three different towns involved. The person that called me is apparently just a boy that Ariah called to have him tell us this, and the police go to his house to question him.
In the meantime I'm still heart attacking with my sister and Ariah's boyfriend calls to tell me that the girls have called him and they are another town over with two 16 year old boys who are driving them around and that NO they are NOT crossing state lines, but they are NOT coming home. At which point Ariah starts calling me every name in the book and telling me how much she hates me....then she hangs up on me.
The police call Ariah's cell phone and she explain that they are deputy so and so and Ariah says "Good for you...." and hangs up........(the plan to have them question authority and think on their own just flew out the window there.







)
It turns out after many hours of tears and searching and thinking the worst that the girls walked into town and were at the baseball diamond the whole time. They were running away.....because apparently Ariah's boyfriend broke up with her so the girls decided they had nothing left to lose.








The girls called us at one point telling us that the boys they were with were dropping them off at the gas station- so the police staked out the gas stations in town (parked their cars behind them) and waited...and our girls arrive on foot. While they are waiting for my husband and I to arrive they make everyone sit on the curb.
I pull up to two stunning girls sitting on the curb.They look 16 and oh so beautiful. Ariah has hair to her butt and Sanvanah has on a stocking cap-looking like fiesty 16 year olds.
I jump out of the car and Ariah starts yelling at me and cursing me out in front of the police....Savannah is doing the same to her mom.
We load them up and the police tell us that they have never seen anything like this from 12 year olds and that our girls have deep seeded issues that we are going to have to take care of.







: (DUH)
On the ride home Ariah is freaking out, screaming yelling, threating, cursing. And we remain silent.
We take her home, she gets in the tub and I go in to talk to her....more of the same so I leave.
While she is asleep, I go in and hold her...and I'm crying. I said "Please don't ever do that again, I was terriffied....and it hurts me soooo much that you hate me." She opens her eyes and says she's really sorry and dosen't hate me and won't do it again.

Gentle parents
WHAT THE HOLY HELL WOULD YOU DO?
I get it that she needs to see someone asap.
Got that.
I think she's depressed.......
Got that.
Is it appropriate after lying, making us terrified to take privilages from her? Or will that make her more depressed?
I know I sound like an idiot.....but this has rocked my foundation and I'm utterly lost without a guide here.
From what I saw last night, I'm dealing with something that grounding dosen't even begin to cover.....and I'm not sure it would even help...she's so angry that it might become that instuting that would lead to worse....she claims that if I punish her she's leaving again. I'm not scared of that because we can deal with that if she goes that route.
I guess what I'm asking is this
is there a way to respect and guide her at this point gently and HELP her through whatever it is that she's going through,
or has she crossed so many lines that it's time to go boot camp on her ass?
And if so.......
will that worsen the depression?
HELP


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I would definately take privelages away from her.

But, I wouldn't take the TV away, because that really has nothing to do with what she has done.

Obviously, even though she is old enough to babysit, she is not mature enough to babysit. So, that is one privelage she would lose. Maybe for YEARS and years. It wouldn't just be for a few months. (because this could endanger someone elses child)

Her cell phone would be GONE. She used her cell phone in completely innapropriate ways, and that thing would be soooooooo very gone. (not forever though, It sure is handy to have a phone that you can call her on) Maybe you can keep the phone, and let her use it ONLY when she is going to be somewhere and you need to call her.

I would allow her to use the computer, BUT it would be out in plain sight, and I would check it every now and then to see what she is up to. There are computer programs that let you see what she is typing.

There probably will come a day that she disappears again. You will need to have this information from her computer to help you track her down.

Sadly, I don't think this is the last time she pulls this. She sounds like one of those kids who thinks her parents are so mean, but when she is 30, she will come to you and thank you for allowing her to live. LOL

One book I got for Christmas, that is really helping me is "Raising teens with Love and Logic". I haven't gotten very far yet, but it looks like the perfect book for your family.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks for the response.....I should add, we don't have tv, and she's already grounded from the computer for writing the school a letter telling them to go F' themselves.
Does that help?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillkuster* 
she's already grounded from the computer for writing the school a letter telling them to go F' themselves.
Does that help?


ROTFLMAO









Please forgive me for laughing. I am sorry. I can't imagine why I find that funny.

I will keep you in my thoughts, because I think you need all the support you can get.

Your daughter sounds like a very bright young lady who is completely lacking in common sense. But, I bet when she is pleasant, she is a joy. Right??


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

I would look into http://www.anasazi.org/. My sister did this rogram and it changed her life. Its a very good loving envioment.


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## antannie (Jul 5, 2006)

I don't have any answers. Just feeling for you and your family. My daughter is 12 too and adopted so when she has issues, well we just assume she has and We don't always "take action". I do keep her busy so she doesn't hang out with kids that she could be inappropriate with and make sure we provide her with healthy friendship opportunities and we remember she is at risk for problems. She has a mouth on her too and I just try to stay calm and tell her how it makes me feel and keep telling her calmly that her behaviour is inappropriate and walk away for my own sanity.

She has a "boyfriend" too. I think she has only actually seen him 3 times but of course she "loves" him. Drives me crazy anyway.

When our dd has a crazy,losing it time we do wht we call grounding but it is not punishment. We keep her close, take her with us everywhere and do fun things and work things close to home or at home. We have a movie and popcorn night and play cards together and cook and "ground" her back with us.

I guess if I had any advice I would say that it is not about you. !2 is hard. Emotions, hormones, societal pressures are hard enough but when you add in a strong, spirited personality (my daughter too!) it can get pretty overwhelming. Try to be patient with her and with yourself and get counselling for you too. It can be very hard on your heart and your relationship with you partner.

And I can offer you some hope. My odest niece came to live with me as a very troubled young teen with a mouth to match your daughter. I even slapped her face once after a runaway event when she left all the laundry at the laundrymat and just took off. Today at 30 she is a fabulous, caring, compassionate and strong person and nurse. She tells me that even as she called me names and slammed doors and drove me to the brink of insanity that she listened to me and tha it mattered. just loving her unconditionally made an enormus difference to her life.

I personally don't like the boot camp idea. It doesn't work to break the spirit of a spirited child. They need to learn how to challenge that gift into something good. For my daughter right now it is hockey. She is "on fire" on the ice as I often hear the other parents say.

Hang in there.

Annie


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Okay so after thinking about this, I've decided that I have to add some more.
First of all, Ariah has been a handful. And so I've decided to homeschool her to reign her in.
BUT when she got a boyfriend she has been a lot brighter...and so I really really hesitate to take the phone from her. She's already socially isolated, and this in the ONE thing that would really hurt her. (They are again...................) If she has no phone she has no bf and she's going to lose that light.
And........that makes me just feel like a complete whimp.
Am I over analysisng sp..sorry the situation so much that I'm not even parenting?
Another biggie is that I feel tons of guilt.
If the fruits of my labor aren't flowering, I must be to blame so I feel bad and don't know how to procede.
If she's feeling this dark.....will making her life darker help?!?!?!?!?!?


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

nextcommercial said:


> ROTFLMAO
> 
> Please forgive me for laughing. I am sorry. I can't imagine why I find that funny.
> 
> ...


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## antannie (Jul 5, 2006)

Keep as much "light" at home where she is loved. We all know the boyfriend won't last. I mean really how many of us are still with our 12 year old heart throb? They just don't know it yet and nither did we at that age. I think most of us at some point felt that our families would never understand us and that only our friends could. Deep down, maybe where they can't even access it at the moment, she knows she is loved by her family and her mum especially. What a loving thing to trust, to homeschool her.

And stop with the guilt. It only makes you feel worse and gives her opportunities to take advantage of you. You are being the best mum you know how to be. Some kids require exceptional parenting skills and require lots of research and a steep learning curve (or as a friend of mine says - a steep learning cliff) and feeling guilty will sap your energy for the challenging times ahead. Don't give up on yourself or her.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think your long term plan needs to depend a lot on whether this is the beginning of a pattern in her behavior, or simply a one-time stupid stunt.

I would start with listening -- really try hard to put yourself in her shoes, and ask her to help you understand what was going through her head from start to finish. You really need to know, and she needs to understand that if anything, sharing her thought process will make things easier on her. Try to enter her world on this one, while listening.

Next -- make a plan with her. The plan should include no more babysitting. And probably, she cannot be left alone again for a while. 24 hour adult supervision, like a younger child. But this is not to punish her -- this is to keep her safe. You can no longer have very high expecations of her ability to look after herself. This event is a signal that she still needs very direct care.

I think that in making a plan, she needs to brainstorm (with some help) everyone who was affected by this stunt. Including the fact that if someone had a true emergency during this escapade, the police would have been tied up searching for her. She needs to think of a way to make restitution. Perhaps this will mean writing a letter to apologize. Perhaps it will mean coming up with a way to give of herself, through time and effort, in some sort of service to the community.

When and why did she write a foul letter to the school? What was her greivance? Are there other issues?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillkuster* 
will making her life darker help?!?!?!?!?!?

No, I don't think so. But, making her responsible for her choices will. Seriously, look at the Love and Logic book, it makes you feel so much better about having her fix her own problems.

I refuse to punish my daughter for choices she has made, but I don't take the responsibility for her choices. She has to find a way to fix it. I might give her choices "You can either give me the money from your account so I can replace that, or you can call around (I hand her the phone book) and find someone who can fix this, at your expense"

I just want her to grow up to be a responsible productive adult. If I fix everything for her, she can't learn to be productive on her own. My parents did everything for me. They fixed everything for me. I was not a mature adult until much later than my friends. I don't want that for my daughter.


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## antannie (Jul 5, 2006)

Not that I thought you would give up! I just know how draining a spirited preteen can be!


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

She needs to find love and joy with her self and not look to a boyfriend to make her happy. A 12 year old should not have a boyfriend.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

It is my opinion that this child is crying out for attention, connection and engagement. I read through some of your old posts and it sounds like you have your hands full with several younger children. In what ways can this daughter be the *most important* person in your life? She found one way. What constructive ways can you build a relationship together which nurtures the feeling of being valued, worried about, and listened to? How often can you arrange time for just you two as a team, partners and friends who share her passions? Enter her world and enrich your lives as a mother and daughter with shared experiences, laughter and fun. Does she enjoy horseback riding, sewing, music, gardening, games, videos, movies? Plan set time, uninterrupted, for undivided attention proactively! She is screaming for your attention.

Pat


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Goddess3_2005* 
She needs to find love and joy with her self and not look to a boyfriend to make her happy. A 12 year old should not have a boyfriend.









More thoughts on this one please.....


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

If you don't already have it get the book Kids are Worth It.

She doesn't need punishment she needs discipline. She needs to see the problem she's caused and come up with a solution. Possibly writing letters of apology to the police departments, maybe some volunteer hours at the police station to see the serious work that goes on there. Something to make her feel a part of the solution and give her ownership for her actions.

I agree, she needs counseling, partly because she is socially isolated and partly because she is acting out in a very grand way for a 12 year old. Find a counselor who is GD and go to see them by yourself, too.

I was high spirited and the best thing my mom ever said to me at the end of every argument (whether it ended poorly or resolved itself) she always said "I'm never giving up on you." Those words lifted me more than anything because 1.) I new she loved me unconditionally and 2.) that I was worth not giving up on.

I did something with larger reprecussions that your daughter when I was a teen and my parents took days before they gave me my "punishment." I didn't know it at the time but looking back I see that they totally handed the problem over to me and told me it was my responsiblity. They told me all of the things they considered - taking away my car, grounding me, and a bunch more awful punishments but in the end they just said I had to find the solution. Wow, talk about sobering me up and I did a great job at fixing it! They offered support of my solution but I had to make and follow through with the plan.

Also, the counselor can help her work through the boyfriend issue. How to feel good about herself, how healthy relationships work, etc.

Best wishes and hugs to you all.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

I am sorry mama







I felt so bad for you reading your post and knowing how terrified you and your sister must have been.
Here are some random thoughts I have on this:
1) As far as consequences for this behavior. would your DD understand that at this point she is not trustworthy enough to babysit and be left alone with her peers for awhile until she gets back on the right track? I don't necessarily think that taking away entertainment is the answer, but I would be concerned that she would use her cell phone to plan another run away session. I agree that she needs socialization, but it needs to be heavily monitored until she proves she can handle being alone and still make good choices.
2) Is your niece part of the problem or was she influenced by your daughter and going along for the ride? Wondering if the two girls also need to be heavily supervised in their interactions.
3) Would the police in your town sit down with DD and explain all the drama she brought about as a result of her actions. I think she needs to realize just how scared she had everybody, and how much trouble herself and her cousin and these two boys could potentially be in. It sounds like there was a lot of time and effort spent by local law enforcement to ensure her safety and she needs to be aware of what that meant... meaning, they spent their time hunting for her instead of helping other people who may have needed the help more, KWIM? I wouldn't let it turn into a scared straight session, but if you could find even one cop that could compassionately talk to her and help her understand what she did.
4) Counseling, for her and you and dad. nuff said.
5) I really get the feeling that she is trying to experiment with rebelliousness and how far that can get her. I think if you can nip it in the bud now it will save you some heartache later.

((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))) to all of you.

Namaste,

Michelle


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
It is my opinion that this child is crying out for attention, connection and engagement. I read through some of your old posts and it sounds like you have your hands full with several younger children. In what ways can this daughter be the *most important* person in your life? She found one way. What constructive ways can you build a relationship together which nurtures the feeling of being valued, worried about, and listened to? How often can you arrange time for just you two as a team, partners and friends who share her passions? Enter her world and enrich your lives as a mother and daughter with shared experiences, laughter and fun. Does she enjoy horseback riding, sewing, music, gardening, games, videos, movies? Plan set time, uninterrupted, for undivided attention proactively! She is screaming for your attention.

Pat

I think this is really, really good advice. Something is going on under the surface, and *that* is what needs to be addressed if you hope to help her cope with future adversity.

Good luck!


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

I agree with the posters who said this is a cry for attention and it also sounds like it could be a test to see how she could manipulate you. I do think you should keep her close. Somehow she needs to earn her boyfriend calls too. I really like Love and Logic approach, but the underlying method to it is Parent Effectiveness Training (more theoretical, less concrete than L&L). I wouldn't put her in couseling or anything (at 12 or 13 she probably thinks she's "messed up" already and is trying out that role (riding around with 16 year olds and the other stories). Also, one other poster mentioned having their child involved in lots of activities - is she passionate about something (besides her boyfriend?) Are there opportunities for art/dance/music classes? You two need to sit down together and come up with a plan on how you're going to proceed, what behaviors are appropriate, what priveleges will be extended, and what responsibilities she has as well as consequences. If this can be done together, you'll get more buy-in from her, and it may help your relationship.

Hang in there mama!

-H


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

When I read the OP, I just wanted to hug Mama and Daughter both! I dreamed up scenarios like that as a pre-teen but never did it...what a spunky girl.

In line with what WuWei said about attention: I think there is a hole somewhere that needs filling. You mentioned the social isolation (and I'm a to-the-death homeschooler, so I understand and support that decision)...others think maybe she feels shoved aside by siblings...

She needs something of her own. A head-start on her own identity. Right now she's filling the emptiness with boys and drama.

Who is she? Artist, musician, animal lover, environmentalist, writer? Get her out into the world. As herself, not as "big sister" or "homeschooled girl with no friends" but as a functioning member of society.

(I hope I'm not hurting your feelings, this is the conversation I had with myself when I realized my 10 year old was beginning to wilt. He is a musical genius, and it was hard to let him go into the world. But he's now a member of a city folk music group and making a name for himself. He also starred in the church Christmas program, and is getting invitations to perform for other groups. Being with other kids was not the answer for him, he needed to be 'in the world'. His increased confidence from joining adults is helping his interactions with peers. He has an identity, he is a musician. He feels he has something to offer to the world.)

Does your daughter have something she can pursue, immerse herself in, meet mentors and other kids with the same interest?

As for consequences for what she's done, I have no idea. I think I'd still be in a corner scraping my jaw off the floor for another day or two. Best wishes to you both. You are a great mama and you will get thru this.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I can't give any advice, but I think the book "Hold on to your Kids" might help with how you feel about your situation. Lawrence Cohen who wrote "Playful Parenting" does phone/email consults, so might be able to help.

It's looking to me like family therapy might be called for.

12 is very young to be left babysitting. I'm sure you've thought of this, but I wonder what your sister's house is like when she visits. Does she often leave your child in charge of younger ones?


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:

Obviously, even though she is old enough to babysit,
Huh????? Not in my books she ain't. I don't know what the law is in my home province now but when I was growing up, it was ILLEGAL to leave any child under 12 at home without an older person (considered criminal abandonment, actually) and illegal for anyone under the age of 13 to be left to babysit younger children. 12 seems VERY young to me to be babysitting and I do not think I am alone in my views on this one. I asked my 12 year old neice if in a couple of years she would like to start babysitting and her mom said, nope she will still be too young. I asked my 14-year old next door neighbour and her parents said that she is too young. Sorry to go on this tangent but I am really surprised that your sister left 2 12-years olds to babysit 2 younger children.

I am really sorry that all this is happening to you with your girl and I hope things improve for you.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jillkuster* 







More thoughts on this one please.....

I have to agree that the bf is not a good idea. We all know that it will end in heartache, and that even older teens tend to have unrealistic expectations that get shattered and cause them pain that they're not equipped to handle. (I.e., "We LOVE each other and someday we'll be married.") Especially a bright and spirited child with strong emotions.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
Huh????? Not in my books she ain't. I don't know what the law is in my home province now but when I was growing up, it was ILLEGAL to leave any child under 12 at home without an older person (considered criminal abandonment, actually) and illegal for anyone under the age of 13 to be left to babysit younger children. 12 seems VERY young to me to be babysitting and I do not think I am alone in my views on this one. I asked my 12 year old neice if in a couple of years she would like to start babysitting and her mom said, nope she will still be too young. I asked my 14-year old next door neighbour and her parents said that she is too young. Sorry to go on this tangent but I am really surprised that your sister left 2 12-years olds to babysit 2 younger children.

I am really sorry that all this is happening to you with your girl and I hope things improve for you.

It probably depends on circumstance. I'd probably leave two responsible 12 year olds to watch non-infant/toddler kids for an hour while I ran an errand... but probably not for a long time or overnight.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmlp* 
12 seems VERY young to me to be babysitting and I do not think I am alone in my views on this one. I asked my 12 year old neice if in a couple of years she would like to start babysitting and her mom said, nope she will still be too young. I asked my 14-year old next door neighbour and her parents said that she is too young. .

My daughter started babysitting at age 12. She was an older 12, but still 12. She is 14 now, and is a favorite babysitter in the neighborhood.

On the other hand, I know several 12 year olds that I wouldn't trust alone for 20 minutes.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

sounds to me like she is really stuggling and hurting adn confused.

I would have her assessed with a Phd or LPC (lincen professional Con) -- that wasy the first focuse is NOT medication, however all the good ones -- if necessary -- will tell you they suggest meds and refere you AND contnuiue with you after the fact oo.

Depression can show as anger (more common in boys, but becoming more common in girls) and dangerous behavior.

I think that is the straw here -- the behavior was not just rude, disrespectful and so on -- it was flat out dangerous to herself, or could have been.

Also it is one thing to be mad and cuss at mom, or even take off -- it is a whole nother page to be that way to the police, and to creat such a stir and still be cussing mad at the end of it. see what i mean. that -- to me -- says she is beyond "12 is tough". 12 is tough, and all the teen years are -- but again being mad at parents, rude to family and alking off is one thing -- countinueing it when you know teh cops are part of it, and you know it is esclating is another.

Yes, I agree -- she need consequences at home -- I agree wioth no computer, I'd take the cell phone -- maybe get her a little kids phone (firfly) that she can call you or 911 and you can call her -- but that isn't really a phone. Grounded. NO unsupervised time with cousion, and NO boyfreind at all. butttttttttttttttttttttt while that tells her that you will not allow her behavior -- i think her mental health still needs to be addressed.

If i was her mom I'd have her assessed.

Sorry I know you don't want to hear it -- but i worked with troubled teeens and what i see in your OP (and in writing the scholl) is more than a normal 12 yo who is just 12 ---

and if nothing truns up in teh assessment, at least you know you checked it out

A


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## graceshappymum (May 11, 2006)

to you mama. I can imagine your pain, I pulled something similar when I was young. I was 16, so older than your dd, but I was also on a different continent from my parents, so I guess that it is all relative.

I can tell you what my parents did, and I am eternally grateful for it, although at the time I thought that my life was over. When I got home, there was a lot of crying and so on, but after that my mother did not let me out of her sight for a good while. Looking back on it this must have been painful for my poor, long suffering mother, but it worked. It made me feel safe, and valuable again, two things which I lacked and which your dd might be feeling, especially as the oldest. There were no punishments, although in this case I would remove her cell phone from her as she did use it inappropriately. Just constant attention and validation, while making me understand that I had caused a number of people a lot of pain and worry.

There was also the loss of a boy to deal with in my situation and my mother made me understand that my self worth was not found in anyone but myself and she made me question the lasting power of the relationship that had ended, given both my age and the circumstances under which it had taken place.

I don't know if that helps at all, but certainly lots of punishment isn't going to do anything but make your dd feel even less important that she is already feeling. Good luck with everything.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
Who is she? Artist, musician, animal lover, environmentalist, writer? Get her out into the world. As herself, not as "big sister" or "homeschooled girl with no friends" but as a functioning member of society.

Does your daughter have something she can pursue, immerse herself in, meet mentors and other kids with the same interest?
.


This is a good idea. With all her drama, I bet she can write some incredible stories. My daughter visits a teen writing website. Teens can write stories, then submit them for critiquing. She has not only learned a lot about writing, she also has favorite authors. They submit stories, poetry, book reveiws and I think even artwork. I read there occasionally and I haven't seen anything questionable yet. I have thought that a story or two were too good for the age of the kid, but then what do I know about talent?

I can't find the link or remember the name at the moment, but, I will try to find it.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Aimee, I was a teen distanced from my parents who embraced privileges/consequences, etc. And I believe it would help more for the mother _to connect and address her daughter's underlying needs_, rather than disconnecting from her emotionally (which removal of a teen's most precious connections (phone, friends, activities), does, imo), and mis-focusing on behaviors. I believe the problem isn't the behavior, it is the unmet needs for approval and connection which fueling the behavior, and which peers provide. I agree with the recommendation to read "Hold On To Your Kids". It is exactly about nurturing the connection to family, rather than to peers. Punishments don't nurture connectivity, ime.

Pat


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

a few more thigs to think about

I like what PP said -- I actually did this with a foster daughter who was 14 and engaging in dangerous behavior -- we became constant buddies -- all day, all teh time, she was with me. two fold -- no more chances to engane in dangous behavor and a lot of one on one with me. hated it for the first week, MAD GIRL, then predend to hate for a week, then liked it -- we got a lot closer and after a while (it took 3 or 4 weeks) she started to really talk when we were doing chorse and running errands. I did all the stuff i normally do -- clean, cook, errands, etc -- she had to be with ME (not me being with her) after the first two week of totally doing MY stuff, I started doing things for her, but still with her 100% of the time. it was a lopng haul we did constant contact for 8 weeks, and then still limited away from an adult for 12 more.

....what about aplogy letter to the police. for her attidue, adn for waesting their time and all the stuff (abmber alert and so on)...or having her do something nice for them to make up for the trouble she caused them?

...is there any way to make mroe real to her what the adults went thougha d thought -- a reality check of some sort?

a


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i was a troubled teen whos parents were all into "family time will fix it" and "she is jsut a teen, they all go throgh this, she is and will be fine" and "it is just a phase"

I eneded up trying to kill myself AFTER seeking out several abusived men.

I wasted my teens and most of my 20's beacuse no one sought the help for me i needed. I now have a past i am assamed of, and can't get life insurence.

Love is good, connections are great -- but they can not fix everything.

consequences and getting help -- do not disregard the love of a parent or the connect of a parent

A


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Sadly this was me as a kid. I was depressed, out of control and a complete mess. Mind you however my parents handled it by beating the tar out of me. Yeah, um that didn't work.
However I do remember feeling like I wanted them to react. I wanted the attention. I felt lost and lonely all the time. My mother and stepdad were not consistent. I don't know enough about you to know if you are or aren't but that may be something worth looking at. Just my two cents. AFA the boyfriend and the phone, I would take the phone because of how she used it. I would let her write the boy, but I would check the letters first. After what went on I really would keep her as close to me as possible. kind of like re-centering her.
However , she sounds like she needs help. My parents always thought i was just being "melodramatic" it made me feel so worthless when they said that. Like one of PP said. I too tried to kill myself , but I was only 14 at the time. My parents felt that pumping my stomach was better than any punishment they could have given me







:


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

"melodramatic" it made me feel so worthless when they said that
mine too.

I promise the 12 yo will be MAD at the thought of assessment -- and silent ans non-compliant

but

it may save her life -- or her years of pain

Aimee


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Aimee21972 : I in NO way think she's a normal 12 year old doing normal 12 year old things. Believe me....I'm thinking the worst here.
Things here have taken a turn for the worst. I just got called a f-whore...








I'm not going to be on for a bit here while I get her settled...and by the way, my sister is a bad ass and thank god for her help. She's on the phone with me now telling me even mentally ill people don't get to hit the social workers.







I'm considering myself an "in home worker" now lol.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I can't give any advice, but I think the book "Hold on to your Kids" might help with how you feel about your situation. Lawrence Cohen who wrote "Playful Parenting" does phone/email consults, so might be able to help.

It's looking to me like family therapy might be called for.

12 is very young to be left babysitting. I'm sure you've thought of this, but I wonder what your sister's house is like when she visits. Does she often leave your child in charge of younger ones?

***that was the first time she's left them in charge....and the last.







:


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Well, my kids are little, so I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, but I do know what it's like to be in your daughter's shoes.

I grew up in the country, and though I went to public school at age 12, it was a small one, and we were all pretty sick of each other by then. I did things like your dd did quite often. And, at least for me, it wasn't nearly as serious as some of the pps have made it sound. It was mostly about boredom.

So if I were you, I wouldn't cut off the line to the bf, because it sounds like that's giving her some safe excitement. I agree with the other pps that you should encourage hobbies, etc. And, maybe you know some older kids that make good decisions? Can you encourage friendships with them? My mom lined up rides for me from extracurricular activities with kids that she thought had it "together", and it really helped me. It was fun to have older teenagers as friends, it made me feel cool, and it provided role models that weren't doing the dangerous stuff.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

It is my opinion that this child is crying out for attention, connection and engagement. I read through some of your old posts and it sounds like you have your hands full with several younger children. In what ways can this daughter be the *most important* person in your life? She found one way. What constructive ways can you build a relationship together which nurtures the feeling of being valued, worried about, and listened to? How often can you arrange time for just you two as a team, partners and friends who share her passions? Enter her world and enrich your lives as a mother and daughter with shared experiences, laughter and fun. Does she enjoy horseback riding, sewing, music, gardening, games, videos, movies? Plan set time, uninterrupted, for undivided attention proactively! She is screaming for your attention.

Quote:

Ican tell you what my parents did, and I am eternally grateful for it, although at the time I thought that my life was over. When I got home, there was a lot of crying and so on, but after that my mother did not let me out of her sight for a good while. Looking back on it this must have been painful for my poor, long suffering mother, but it worked. It made me feel safe, and valuable again, two things which I lacked and which your dd might be feeling, especially as the oldest. There were no punishments, although in this case I would remove her cell phone from her as she did use it inappropriately. Just constant attention and validation, while making me understand that I had caused a number of people a lot of pain and worry.

I agree with both of these posts.

I would get right inside her world and stay there until she is truly mature enough to make responsible choices. I know this sounds very cliche, but I read an article in an alternative parenting magazine in which a parent in a similiar situation took their family to a third world area and volunteered in an orphane together for an extended period of time. It worked. The family bonded in a way they had not for many years, and the teen involved developed a powerful sense of purpose and empathy and integrity. You wouldn't have to leave the country to do that. There are many ways to get out in rural and underdeveloped area's right here and volunteer to help others as a family.

Using her cell phone in this manner with the police is so incredibly dangerous that I would no longer be comfortable supplying her with a cell phone. I don't think of that as a punishment although perhaps my child would see it that way. To me it would be like having a gun in the house. If a child used it in a threatening manner, I could not supply that item in our home in good conscience. It gives her the ability to cause widespread damage without having to really engage herself in the moment. That's dangerous. She is not ready for the responsibility.

I'm glad you already homeschool so I don't have to give you that suggestion.

I would immerse her with positive mentors and role models. What are her interests? How can you expand on those interests in a safe way?


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## egarcia76 (Aug 1, 2006)

Your dd sounds just like my 19 yo stepson. He pulled these kind of stunts all the time beginning @ 12, &, of course, the severity of his decisions opened a revolving door of counselors, antidepressants, boot camp, drug treatments, juvenile detention, adult jail, &, as of next month, prison. Really, he started pulling these stunts (disappearing, exhibiting behavior probs @ school) at 12 & was in a 7-mo court-ordered boot camp three hrs from home less than two years later. Obviously, nothing has helped.

I entered his life just before his 13th b-day, so I've been through the whole ride.

His mother (my partner) continually felt guilty for years. She isn't/wasn't a "bad" (read: neglectful, abusive, distant, etc.) parent by any means of the imagination, but she will tell you to this day that her biggest mistake was not trying hard enough to connect w/her ds earlier. Following any kind of transgression, we would revoke every privilege we thought appropriate (friends, movies, phone, etc.). Nothing worked. The behavior escalated. SS routinely called us & ANYONE in authority "b*tches", "ho's", "mf's", etc. & destroyed our property. No one (us, extended family, counselors, law enforcement) seemed to have an effect. RX meds didn't, either. So we withheld more privileges, and more, until we arrived at the point where we kept all of our financials locked in a safe in the trunk of our car. We got rid of the house phone. We got rid of internet. All of the TVs had multiple locks (so as to avoid another $1K+ cable bill due to porn rentals). We couldn't leave him alone in our home for fear of what would be stolen, who would hang out there, etc. We locked our bedroom door 24/7. We lived this way for 6 yrs (well, maybe 4 when you count his jail/boot camp stints).

Long story short, neither privilege withholding or "riding [his] ass" ever worked. It might for some kids, but it certainly didn't for him. What bio mom surmises now is that he may not have escalated if she had exercised more patience & forgiving, GD-type attitudes. (Yes, I know, hindsight) ITA w/the advice posted by townmouse & Aimee21972. Do not give up. Work w/dd to find an outlet wherein she can excel. I think one of ss's main issues is that he truly feels dumb & worthless. Not that his mother EVER said or implied this ... but, seven yrs later, he has yet to find a niche & tries to fit in w/whatever/whomever he can & as a result exclusively seeks the company of some, um, questionable characters. He is very "spirited" but very much a follower. This may be what your dd is struggling with. Meds might help, too. SS was diagnosed w/bipolar features in early teenhood & took meds for a short while, though really not long enough to really "work". He has since refused, &, given his age, it's not something anyone can argue with. As much as I'm against overmedication, it is there to serve a legit health purpose in many people. Above all, do not give up. Sadly, dp gave up on ds for a while when we were completely enmeshed in this and hopeless. We're pretty sure SS picked up on it. She's since done a complete aboutface & is the only one who visits him in jail ... but it's had lasting effects, obviously. Please, please reinforce your love and commitment to dd as much as you can. It will be beyond hard when she tests you, I know, esp. w/other dc. And you do have to set reasonable consequences, but realize that if she consistently fails to respond to some form of "punishment", you'll have to do something else. Good luck to you & keep us posted.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

i don't see the removal of the cell as punishment -- thouh i kown the dc will -- i see it as responible ont eh part of teh parts.

it was misused in a dangerous and let's face it -- illage way.

the parents have finaly responiblity for that == and must remove it.

the pp made a good comparsion to a gun -- the parents allowing access to gun, or phone, are allowing whatever dangerous or illage activities happen, thna thus are finally responioble.

I think it is -- NMO-- byond the realm of GD and purely family interactions.

JMHO

A


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

For what it's worth, we don't have children yet, and I don't know how "gentle" we will be. I imagine we are going to be firm parents who try to explain everything, because I think that's what children need. We won't be hitting our kids, if that makes things clear.

..............

WOW.

I vote "boot camp" - but your own version.

I would have let the cops take her downtown and read her the riot act if they would have.

There would be no boyfriend in the first place. That's inappropriate for a 13 year old.

No contact with the cousin.

There would be no phone, no computer, and no door on her bedroom for the next long while. If she wanted to act like a sadistic criminal, I would treat her like one as best I could, while keeping her in a safe place with people who love her&#8230;. Namely, HOME.

I would do my best to get her into some sort of remedial schooling, because home schooling isn't really the best for her, from the sounds of it, she steam-rolls right over you and doesn't see you as an authority figure&#8230;. Plus, you might need a bit of a break from her as well.

In my opinion, I think your daughter needs professional help, this goes above and beyond "spunky" - this is really disturbed behaviour.

I had crazy thoughts as a young teen, but I would have never DREAMED of torturing my parents like this and breaking laws and getting an Amber Alert called with police involved&#8230; that's really twisted.

What does your husband say?

Trin.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

thinking

breaking laws and getting an Amber Alert called with police involved

what did the police say to her?

is there any consequence there?

AImee


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I'm with Heart and Pat on this -- structure your life so that you are in constant contact with her. Give her the attention she needs, and at the same time -- supply the supervision she requires in order to be safe.

Read up on ODD. Oppositional Defiant Disorder. If her behavior is part of a larger pattern, this is a possible diagnosis. The primary way to treat is not through individual therapy (though that might be part of it) as much as through supporting and retraining the parents. You will be advised to work on 1) deepening your connection with her, 2) working on fairness in your daily life and making agreements, 3) natural consequences. Getting an assessment and a therapist involved is a good idea, but you can start researching strategies now.

I think you are doing a great job, I would be totally overwhelmed and blown away in your shoes, and I think you have your work cut out for you. But you can do it.


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
For what it's worth, we don't have children yet, and I don't know how "gentle" we will be. I imagine we are going to be firm parents who try to explain everything, because I think that's what children need. We won't be hitting our kids, if that makes things clear.

..............

WOW.

I vote ?boot camp? ? but your own version.

I would have let the cops take her downtown and read her the riot act if they would have.

There would be no boyfriend in the first place. That's inappropriate for a 13 year old.

No contact with the cousin.

There would be no phone, no computer, and no door on her bedroom for the next long while. If she wanted to act like a sadistic criminal, I would treat her like one as best I could, while keeping her in a safe place with people who love her?. Namely, HOME.

I would do my best to get her into some sort of remedial schooling, because home schooling isn?t really the best for her, from the sounds of it, she steam-rolls right over you and doesn?t see you as an authority figure?. Plus, you might need a bit of a break from her as well.

In my opinion, I think your daughter needs professional help, this goes above and beyond ?spunky? ? this is really disturbed behaviour.

I had crazy thoughts as a young teen, but I would have never DREAMED of torturing my parents like this and breaking laws and getting an Amber Alert called with police involved? that?s really twisted.

What does your husband say?

Trin.

I dont think it would be a bad idea to take her to the station and have her talk to the police about her choice to involve them.
that said,
I dont think changing everything around her is going to work. She must already feel out of control to behave this way. I think putting her in school, taking away her cousin, and her door would be too much and make her feel; really powerless. I have taken away DS1's door because he kicked it/slammed it and it broke. natural consequence he pays to replace the door, and has none untill he can replace it. I dont think taking away her privacy is going to help at this point.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I hear you; I'm usually all for privacy.

I'm not saying to take away the door to take away her privacy, I'm saying it because I think this is an extreme situation, and I'd be worried for this child's safety.... I'd be worried that she might try to hurt herself or sneak out the window, or something.

Maybe not on the school thing then? The OP knows her daughter best... it just sounds like she needs a whole of of HELP right now because her daughter is acting so out of control. I have since read the other posts and think the 24/7 contact thing is a VERY good idea, if the OP can do it.

Cussing out cops? Amber alert? Fake phone call to the Mom to make her sick with fear? That just rings a whole lot of alarm bells for me.

I still vote for professional help.

What does your husband say?


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
For what it's worth, we don't have children yet, and I don't know how "gentle" we will be. I imagine we are going to be firm parents who try to explain everything, because I think that's what children need. We won't be hitting our kids, if that makes things clear.

..............

WOW.

I vote "boot camp" - but your own version.

I would have let the cops take her downtown and read her the riot act if they would have.

There would be no boyfriend in the first place. That's inappropriate for a 13 year old.

No contact with the cousin.

There would be no phone, no computer, and no door on her bedroom for the next long while. If she wanted to act like a sadistic criminal, I would treat her like one as best I could, while keeping her in a safe place with people who love her&#8230;. Namely, HOME.

I would do my best to get her into some sort of remedial schooling, because home schooling isn't really the best for her, from the sounds of it, she steam-rolls right over you and doesn't see you as an authority figure&#8230;. Plus, you might need a bit of a break from her as well.

In my opinion, I think your daughter needs professional help, this goes above and beyond "spunky" - this is really disturbed behaviour.

I had crazy thoughts as a young teen, but I would have never DREAMED of torturing my parents like this and breaking laws and getting an Amber Alert called with police involved&#8230; that's really twisted.

What does your husband say?

Trin.

A lot of your suggestions are very punishment- oriented. Punishment has been proven time and again to escalate undesirable behaviour in the long-term. I think she wants to get at the heart of the problem and not just scare her daughter, or humiliate her, YK?

I agree about the professional help though. Also hugs to you OP! I hav a very spirited 3.75 year old, I am reading and learning on this thread...I really like the suggestions to re-connect with her by keeping her close.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
She needs something of her own. A head-start on her own identity. Right now she's filling the emptiness with boys and drama.

Who is she? Artist, musician, animal lover, environmentalist, writer? Get her out into the world. As herself, not as "big sister" or "homeschooled girl with no friends" but as a functioning member of society.

(I hope I'm not hurting your feelings, this is the conversation I had with myself when I realized my 10 year old was beginning to wilt. He is a musical genius, and it was hard to let him go into the world. But he's now a member of a city folk music group and making a name for himself. He also starred in the church Christmas program, and is getting invitations to perform for other groups. Being with other kids was not the answer for him, he needed to be 'in the world'. His increased confidence from joining adults is helping his interactions with peers. He has an identity, he is a musician. He feels he has something to offer to the world.)

Does your daughter have something she can pursue, immerse herself in, meet mentors and other kids with the same interest?

I am sad that some of the mamas here experienced uninvolved parents who felt that their childhood angst was "just a phase". I certainly agree that the situation isn't healthy. I believe that *attention, acceptance and approval* needs to be available for all children. If the daughter isn't connecting with the mama, what other adult models are available to her?

The gist of "Hold on to Your Kids" is to provide mature adult resources as models for our children. Nurturing these relationships over time, is recommended, as opposed to promoting socializing with same aged peers at very young ages (like preschool). Now that the dd is 12, the peer orientation is already a huge part of her life. Finding adult mentors who the dd could look up to, respect and connect with is necessary. The mama and she are not connecting, for whatever reasons. I agree that finding activities in which the dd can be engaged, passionate and interested in participating will alter her behavior by facilitating role models, whether in music, drama, art, writing, etc with whom she respects. Finding out what the girl is passionate about and facilitating her constructive interests will help to provide consistent connection with mature adults, even if the mama isn't her trusted resource at this time.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 

Cussing out cops? Amber alert? Fake phone call to the Mom to make her sick with fear? That just rings a whole lot of alarm bells for me.


Quote:

jump out of the car and Ariah starts yelling at me and cursing me out in front of the police....Savannah is doing the same to her mom.
I don't believe that she cussed out cops.

Alarm bells for attention and connection go off for me too.









Pat


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I would call them consequences rather than punishments.

Pat, thanks for pointing that out, I must have misread.

OP: What did the police say to your daughter, and what did your daughter say to them?


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
I would call them consequences rather than punishments.

Pat, thanks for pointing that out, I must have misread.

OP: What did the police say to your daughter, and what did your daughter say to them?

You could call them consequences, but if they are imposed by the parent they become punishments. There are natural consequenses, like refusing to wear a coat when its cold. the child makes that choice and when they get outside and get cold they have anatural consequence, they learn and put their coat on. Like with the door for DS1. He broke it, I could not afford to replace it, it was a hazard to leave it up half broken. he was without a door. he had other options to promote his privacy, he chose to stay without the door until he had the money to fix it. KWIM
maybe someone can explain it better than I can


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Read up on ODD. Oppositional Defiant Disorder. If her behavior is part of a larger pattern, this is a possible diagnosis. The primary way to treat is not through individual therapy (though that might be part of it) as much as through supporting and retraining the parents. You will be advised to work on 1) deepening your connection with her, 2) working on fairness in your daily life and making agreements, 3) natural consequences. Getting an assessment and a therapist involved is a good idea, but you can start researching strategies now.

I think this is also very excellent advice. Obviously, we internet psychologists don't have all the info in front of us here







but it's a possible diagnosis that popped into my head, too. It is definitely worth educating yourself about.

It is sometimes treated with meds, so when you look for a therapist you may (depending on your attitude on that) want to keep that in mind when asking about preferred treatment approaches.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I know this must be so heartbreaking for you. Maybe finding a mantra when you're feeling most overwhelmed so it can ground you in the here and now...because you really cannot "make" her act in any way---we can only control our actions and reactions...and I wanted to say how awesome it is that you're _so_ caring. Many parents would immediately punish her, etc. without even considering her feelings.









I felt compelled to address the wilderness camp suggestion, and please note that I in no way know anything about the particular one suggested







In this month's issue of The Sun, there is a fabulous (and terrifying) article about the epidemic abuses of the 'teen-help' industry. It's an interview with an expert in this field and journalist, Maia Szalavitz. Many good intentioned parents fall into the trap that sending their child "away" is going to solve the problems at home. The industry is unregulated and Szalavitzs asserts they all share the belief that:



_Quote:_

teenagers should be made to conform to the expectations of parents and society, by whatever means necessary.

She goes on to say that there are *some* wilderness programs that claim to be loving, but without regulation or oversight, there is absolutely no way to be *sure.* Plus, many 'counselors' have zero to minimal training, are paid minimum wage and may themselves have emotional issues and have undergone no criminal background checks.

Another quote:

Quote:

_The ideology of these programs has increasingly become the ideology of our whole country: leniency is bad, and kindness only encourages weakness and misconduct._
It's my understanding that many times when there's a teen who is 'out of control'---there are underlying physical/psychiatric issues (depression esp.) I think it's so important to foster connection rather than rejection, no matter what the "cause." I think you said you thought she was depressed--depression is a physical illness. It needs treatment, no matter what kind of healing path y'all take--it needs to be addressed b/c depression colors everything. And if she feels even further alienated, I would worry. Punishments, IMO, are not effective and are hurtful to a relationship--and I think that's really important right now to maintain, strengthen your connection.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

It is sometimes treated with meds, so when you look for a therapist you may (depending on your attitude on that) want to keep that in mind when asking about preferred treatment approaches.
Definately look into it -- but I *think* that when meds are used, its to treat problems that frequently coincide with ODD. For eg. -- a child with ADD who develops ODD. Or depression.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Read up on ODD. Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

**Good call there! She was diagnosed with this at age 8?


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Just a moment to offer hugs and compassion from a mama whose had a rough ride with a teen around the same age









She had her heart broken by her boyfriend..yes she had a completely OVER reaction to that but based on your description of her personality combined with her age it is probably pretty "normal" ie that any child with that combination might do something similar.

I would follow the "white on rice" suggestions and just stick to her for a few weeks. I would also try to engage her in conversations about the boyfriend, the broken heart...listen..actively listen..hear her feelings and understand them. She needs to know that you will listen and understand, you will be there for her should her heart get broken again(and it will) and next time maybe she will come to you with her sadness and anger and not express it in such a violent and innappropriate manner.

Try compassion mama...compassion never hurts anybody


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Thank you all for the insight and support.
We had a rough afternoon, and I decided to call our local mental health clinic. They got her in within the hour (my father in law owns the corporation that runs it -came in quite handy. )
The woman they had us talk to....I'm just in awe......we got a perfect fit.
The minute we sat down Ariah was smiling shyly at her. Ariah's always bitter so this is a first.








The woman is into Waldorf parenting and she knows all about gentle discipline. I felt so watched over by god for lack of a better discription. Just when I'm at my worst this grace is handed to us.
She told Ariah that I am her parent and that she is 12-but she put it in such a way that she had Ari agreeing with her.
Ariah's going to be sticking close-and we've come to terms with how we're operating from here on out.
And omg this is the weirdest part.....Ariah has been hanging out with Eli and I all night tonight talking and laughing....and she on her own told me how sorry she was for putting me through this.
We're going to be seeing this lady on a weekly basis- and I love her.
I was using the bathroom at the clinic when a conversation I'd had with a good friend of mind came to mind.
She owns an organic clothing store in town and she told me about her friend Suzanna who is a counselor....and she said she'd love to go to her but can't because ....well they are friends lol....she was telling me how awesome and gentle this woman is......AND THIS IS WHO WE HAPPENED TO GET!
So again...I'm feeling blessed.
They are also going to evaluate Ari as we procede.
For now though....the fires out! And I'm back to my centered self.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

For those of you who asked what my husband had to say about all of this...... Do you really want to know lol?
I had this whole gentle approach in my mind and I was going around and around. We went to lunch today to talk about how to handle this and when I told him how I was feeling he was like
"Oh my god are you crazy?!" "I'm instituting boot camp on her NOW" and he rattled off a whole list of things she's never going to see or do again.







And when I told him again how I was feeling he reminded me that I've already been nice and this is where nice got me.
So.....
Lunch was interesting.
Good thing we have some balance here lol.
And good thing we saw the therapist or poor Ari would be....
up a shit creek.


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## terrordactyl (Jul 19, 2006)

first i want to say i'm sorry this has happened to you i wish i had some amazing advice for you but i don't maybe some counceling would help- art therapy is amazing

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Goddess3_2005* 
I would look into http://www.anasazi.org/. My sister did this rogram and it changed her life. Its a very good loving envioment.

as for this program the lady on the front page scares me enough not to send any children i know to a place like this. plus i've heard to many horror stories coming from people i actually know who have been to places like this. no offence to your sister who went there or anything but i don't think treatment fecilities really do as much good for the person as for the family who thinks there child is getting some kind of help. what they need is love and support in all area's.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

now, don't take this the wrong way because the whole Amber alert and thinking your child is kidnapped is HORRIBLE and I don't mean to downplay it at all- I would have been a complete wreck and I hope I never have to experience that kind of fear!









but...and maybe I am the only one on this thread...or maybe I was a REALLY bad kid...I don't see this as that far out of 12 yr old behavior. I think it's dangerous territory to start categorizing a child as "normal" or "not normal" based on certain behaviors...."normal" kids can do abnormal things and vice versa. When I read the part about the cops saying they've never seen a 12 yr old act that way before, I rolled my eyes and thought to myself- "either they haven't been cops for very long, or they're lying to try and get you to really crack down on her." Because, at 12/13, my friends and I were all already smoking, doing drugs, drinking, and being very influenced by the hardcore and punk music we listened to and didn't understand, just doing awful things all the time. I did something just as bad as this when I was exactly 12. (Granted, my parents had divorced the year before, I'd had to change towns and schools.) I'm not saying it's HEALTHY behavior, I'm just saying I don't think it's out of the range of rebellious, angry adolescent stuff. At that age many kids aren't capable of being unselfish enough to realize the effect their actions are having on others- hence her apology later on when she saw how upset her mom was.
I was put through the ringer of therapy and psychiatric drugs and it never did a lick of good for me- not saying it doesn't help others. My problem was that real issues that were too big for me to accept were happening in my life and instead of understanding and love from my parents I got distance and indifference (Dad), and harshness and cold withdrawal of love (Mom). I'm SO glad to see you are obviously NOT like that. No one on the internet (incl. myself) can give you accurate advice because the reasons for why kids do things like this are numerous. This is my very long winded way of saying a GD approach is IMO the best way to go as long as there are *some* consequences-which can be done in a loving way.


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks Bri......
Very sweet of you to write that.
And by the way....I was an AWFULL kid too, and told Ariah this today in the car- I explained that I had a lot of empathy towards her because I really remember being in so much pain at her age. She perked up enough to listen...and then I got to add...but I GRANDMA as a mom so quite your complaining.







: (Grandma's a hardcore fundamentalist.)


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I think she needs connection to you, not punishment. Is there a way you can spend more time together doing something fun-- out to eat, even, if time is an issue. What does she like to do? Maybe snuggling up with her and reading aloud to her once the little ones are asleep? I just read The Witch of Blackbird Pond to my 14 yr old even though she can read well and devours books on her own. But it's nice to sit all snuggly with a teen/preteen. We also like to knit while we listen to books on tape. I think it helps us stay connected.

My dd also likes to ride, and she even enjoys mucking out stalls. Maybe finding something like that for her? Would she enjoy hard work and learning something new? Kids do want to feel productive and needed.

I would probably take the cell phone or limit it...for a time. It seems it was so abused. I also don't like the thought of a 12 yr old child only havig a light because a boy likes her. (Although he broke up with her that night, right?-- Maybe that is a blessing.

This sounds hard. I am not sure what I would do beyond what I've written here if she were my little girl. I know I would first seek that connection. What she did was an amazing thing for such a young child. It does boggle the mind. But life is very complex for kids know.


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## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

i'm 19 and my DD is 4mo but i was a rebellious child naught but a few years ago and although i was almost 17 at the time i pulled a similar stunt and at that point my parents "broke up" with me they still loved me but all i got from them at that point on was food, shelter and clothing i was allowed to leave the house but they had nothing to do with it and didn't support any of my actions and after a while i was sick of not having any money or a car and my friends were sick of giving me rides and i made up with my parents "kinda" but there will always be a different relationship. this doesn't apply to your situation yet but if it continues???


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## theirmomjayne (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
My daughter started babysitting at age 12. She was an older 12, but still 12. She is 14 now, and is a favorite babysitter in the neighborhood.

On the other hand, I know several 12 year olds that I wouldn't trust alone for 20 minutes.


I was 11. (10 when I babysat my brother!)







:


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## SweetMamaMe (Jun 26, 2006)

Punishment, consequences, whatever you call it. I would, personally, opt for the boot camp method. I would want my child to respect authority, not question it. I'm so sorry this is happening to you and your family. Peace.


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## jellop (Dec 11, 2006)

I may be way off base here, but one of the things that came to my mind while I was reading your post is . . . is it possible that she's involved in any drugs? I realize I may be bringing up something that isn't remotely a problem, but I do think it _may_ be something to look at. If she's dealing with depression or anything, she may be "self medicating" to deal with it - or maybe her and her cousin decided to try "experimenting" the night they were together? I don't know. I just remember watching my brother when we were growing up. He got involved in drugs. He was a wonderful, caring person, but when he was under the influence, he became a totally different person. Defiant, mean, aggressive, outraged, doing outrageous stunts that seemed to make complete sense to him at the time . . . it was insane! There's illegal substances, there's possibly someone else's prescription drugs to take, or even household items - I remember watching my brother huffing on a can of compressed air for the computer!

The thing is, no matter what, her behavior has been a cry for help. I am so glad that you all are seeing someone. Hope that everything continues to heal for you and your family.







Keep us posted, we're all thinking of you!!

-Jolene


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## laketahoemama (Aug 29, 2006)

Quote:

I felt compelled to address the wilderness camp suggestion, and please note that I in no way know anything about the particular one suggested In this month's issue of The Sun, there is a fabulous (and terrifying) article about the epidemic abuses of the 'teen-help' industry. It's an interview with an expert in this field and journalist, Maia Szalavitz. Many good intentioned parents fall into the trap that sending their child "away" is going to solve the problems at home. The industry is unregulated and Szalavitzs asserts they all share the belief that:

Quote:
teenagers should be made to conform to the expectations of parents and society, by whatever means necessary.

She goes on to say that there are *some* wilderness programs that claim to be loving, but without regulation or oversight, there is absolutely no way to be *sure.* Plus, many 'counselors' have zero to minimal training, are paid minimum wage and may themselves have emotional issues and have undergone no criminal background checks.

Another quote:

Quote:
The ideology of these programs has increasingly become the ideology of our whole country: leniency is bad, and kindness only encourages weakness and misconduct.

It's my understanding that many times when there's a teen who is 'out of control'---there are underlying physical/psychiatric issues (depression esp.) I think it's so important to foster connection rather than rejection, no matter what the "cause." I think you said you thought she was depressed--depression is a physical illness. It needs treatment, no matter what kind of healing path y'all take--it needs to be addressed b/c depression colors everything. And if she feels even further alienated, I would worry. Punishments, IMO, are not effective and are hurtful to a relationship--and I think that's really important right now to maintain, strengthen your connection























I get the Sun. I can't believe I haven't read this article!
I am a former troubled teen and survivor of WWASP:
http://www.antiwwasp.com/
A "troubled teen" lock down boot-camp type facility.
If you are considering a wilderness program, boot-camp, or lock down rehab facility, I urge you to read Maia Szalavitz's book Help at any Cost, and check out this website: http://www.helpyourteens.com/difficu...ous_teens.html
I never did anyting I truly regret until after spending 13 months in a "program for troubled teens". I had 2 close friends whom I grew up with, that were not as lucky as I. One who spent time at a wilderness camp. He hung himself in jail a couple years ago while awating trial for kidnapping and grand theft auto.
My other friend went to a boot-camp for teens-type place. I haven't talked to her in years, but last I heard she was prostituting to support her addiction to methemphetamines. I'm not sure there is a "good" program out there. I believe these places are inherently bad for kids, and will almost always do more harm than good.
I am sorry I can't be more helpful with what you SHOULD do. There is lots of good advice in this thread. Hopefully you can find answers for your family here, or at least some loving support until you do.


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

I would suggest counselling asap for her. If *I* was in your shoes, I would be afraid to punish, from personal experience.

When my niece was 12, she pulled a disappearing act, in HER case (not yours..HERS..want to make this clear) I feel it was because she was treated like crap by her family..she was their 'whipping boy'. I think it was her way of seeing whether or not she actually mattered at all. Of course, they responded with punishments, bringing it up at family gatherings to embarass her etc. Same year, her sister found her face down on their bedroom floor after taking a bottle of pills. This year, she spent two days in the hospital for a psychological evaluation because she had told a few friends she was going to kill herself.

I feel like it's impossible to know if this was a one time stunt your daughter pulled, or the beginning of a lengthy battle with depression and the various things that accompany it. And since no one can say for sure what's going on in her mind, it could have really just been a "screw you guys, I can do what I want" or it could be feeling unloved, unvalued in the family, or actual depression. I think if she had someone to speak to outside of the family, someone who may be able to decipher if it's just teen angst or something more serious, you could head off a lot of problems that could happen down the road, and it would give her someone to work these feelings out with, because regardless of how understanding you are as a parent, sometimes it's easier to speak to someone you don't love..you know?

My niece sounds a lot like your daughter, she's extremely smart, hilarious, and just an all around beautiful human being..she's actually my favorite member of the family, aside from my SO and dd. I struggle daily trying to figure out a way to help her, but even though I know she considers me her favorite family member, I don't think I'm considered a "safe" person to talk to, because I'm an adult, and her mother would beat the living snot out of me until I gave up the goods if she ever disappeared again. I wish my neice had a safe person outside of our family to talk to, but as of yet I haven't found a way to get her one.

So yes, to conclude my ramble..I'd try to be really gentle with her, this could be the tip of a very big, very painful iceberg.

Good luck..I can't imagine how this situation would feel as a mother, but I know as an aunt my heart aches for my niece.


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jellop* 
I may be way off base here, but one of the things that came to my mind while I was reading your post is . . . is it possible that she's involved in any drugs? I realize I may be bringing up something that isn't remotely a problem, but I do think it _may_ be something to look at. If she's dealing with depression or anything, she may be "self medicating" to deal with it - or maybe her and her cousin decided to try "experimenting" the night they were together? I don't know. I just remember watching my brother when we were growing up. He got involved in drugs. He was a wonderful, caring person, but when he was under the influence, he became a totally different person. Defiant, mean, aggressive, outraged, doing outrageous stunts that seemed to make complete sense to him at the time . . . it was insane! There's illegal substances, there's possibly someone else's prescription drugs to take, or even household items - I remember watching my brother huffing on a can of compressed air for the computer!

The thing is, no matter what, her behavior has been a cry for help. I am so glad that you all are seeing someone. Hope that everything continues to heal for you and your family.







Keep us posted, we're all thinking of you!!

-Jolene

that is an interesting point. just be careful bringing it up because if your wrong it may make things worse. be very careful it doesnt become and accusation


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Woolball,







Isn't The Sun amazing??? I just got my issue this week, and it hasn't left my side since









jiillkuster, I'm so sad to hear your dh mentioned boot-camp...this is exactly why I posted what I did above. Boot-camp seems to be such a popular concept, and IMO, it's just the exact opposite of what a disconnected child needs.

<I had a close friend when I was much younger whose mother sent him to a Christian boot-camp, and he ran away due to counselor sexual abuse and was on the streets from the age of _thirteen_. His mother and her partner basically disowned him once he "ran away from God." I just know how easy it is for parents to become overwhelmed and believe, with all good intent, that their child would be better off in the presence of strangers, away from home....and it simply isn't true and in fact, the child is in much, much more danger.>

Please, please keep us updated and know that we are thinking of you and yours and are here for you


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Punishment, consequences, whatever you call it. I would, personally, opt for the boot camp method. I would want my child to respect authority, not question it...
There is a great deal of questioning authority around here







We are all encouraged to take what resonates with our own personal beliefs and that which feels might be a 'good fit' for our families and leave the rest.

I believe the OP selected to post within the GD forum because she wanted to _avoid_ punishment. The Gentle Discipline foundation rests upon the following philosophy:

Quote:

*Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.*

Quote:

*
MDC serves an online community of parents, families, and parent, child and family advocates considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions concern the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support, information, and community.*
HTH explain a bit further


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## laketahoemama (Aug 29, 2006)

Quote:

Woolball, Isn't The Sun amazing??? I just got my issue this week, and it hasn't left my side since
It really is.Its a really beautiful publication. As soon as I finished posting above I went and read the whole thing! And that interview with Maia Szalavitz was very good. The comments about WWASP were dead on.


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## antannie (Jul 5, 2006)

just for a bit of lightness....

When my niece who I was raising (not the one on MDC) was a rebellious teen I gave her a button that said "QUESTION AUTHORITY....NOT YOUR MOTHER"

Unquestioned respect for authority can lead to some pretty scary things. Questioning authority does not necessarily equate disrespect. I fully supprt my daughter to question....respectfully.


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## Enchanted Gypsy (Oct 5, 2006)

That was so me as a teenager ! I even physically and verbally lashed out at a cop, called my mother awful names, ran away,skipped school..did whatever I wanted. My friends were my life my boyfriend and best girlfriend especially..in a creepy way. We often pretended , that we were a family, a mom, dad and daughter. Obviously, in my case, a feeling of family was greatly lacking at home.

My parents raised me in a way where I could do and say whatever I wanted and there would be no consequences at all. I had no responsibilities, despite the fact that I desprately wanted them. I remember making up a list of chores and rules for myself and posting it on the fridge and asked my parents to please enforce them. They never did.

They were not violent, but they were not emotonally suportive/understanding either.The also were not around a lot and I was raised by my brothers quite a bit.

I was put in all kinds of facilities, some the "tough love" approach where the goal was to strip the child of their power and make them feel awful. This did NOT work ( I think I needed consequences much earlier in life..I respected no one and felt the whole world revolved around me and what I wanted..). At this late in the game, I really needed someone to listen.

The only place that really helped was the private treatment clinic that focused on therapy and listening/expressing feelings, as well as providing consequences for my bad behaviour ( so many hours of free time taken away for cursing out the counsler ect..this was followed up by someone who really listened and emphatithized with my frustrations, and helped me to develop better ways of coping.) There were wonderful and creative programs like Psycho drama and art therapy, movement class and tons of support groups and one on one time with a counsler. Each week we had a family therapy session. People listened, people cared. There were lots of other kids that lived there with me as well. Perhaps a place like that would help your girl ??

Whatever you decide, I HIGHLY reccomend therapy and counseling, for your daughter and your husband and you as well. I would be careful of the wilderness camps, some of them take a real "tough love " approach which I feel can be damaging, especially if done in the absence of love,understanding and support.

Please don't let this escalate.

Much Love, Light n Hugs ~ Pixie


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## lilith_382 (Jul 24, 2005)

Your daughter sounds much like me when I was about 15. I remember throwing glass bottles at my mothers car while she was driving off, calling her awful names, not coming home etc. I realize as an adult how difficult this was for her and I have apologized many times.
I found out later that I have a thyroid problem, Nobody knows when it started, so we don't know if it contributed to what I went through as a teenager. The syptoms usually coincide with the onset of puberty, and the severity fluctuates based on hormones from that point on. What I have is Graves disease, but this is obviously only one example of a possible chemical problem that your daughter could be experiencing.
My mother just sort of struggled though to the end of it. She sought counseling for herself because I would not go with her. Looking back at the situation I am not sure what advice I would have given her. I just didn't want her in my life.
I suppose I don't really have any solid advice, but the first thing that came to mind when I read your post was this: http://www.trackersnw.com/html/main-art.php
It is basically a self defense/ wilderness skills camp for women only. I am not sure where you are or what your financial situation is, but perhaps you cold find something similar in your area. Something like this might give you the chance to bond and talk, and might provide her with the chance to interact with some other thinking women. I know I considered mum's opinionto be basically dirt during those years, but maybe I would have listened to a cearefully chosen "friend"?
Definately consider the possibility that there is something chemically wrong. Under no circumstances allow anyone to put your daughter on medication unless there is a clear indication that there is a chemical problem. i.e. blood tests. However I feel that this should be ruled out.
I believe that if you continue to show her love at he very least she will come back to you as she mutures. Good luck.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
She needs something of her own. A head-start on her own identity. Right now she's filling the emptiness with boys and drama.

Who is she? Artist, musician, animal lover, environmentalist, writer? Get her out into the world. As herself, not as "big sister" or "homeschooled girl with no friends" but as a functioning member of society.

I haven't read all of the responses, but this is exactly what I was going to say. If you help her find something to be good at, something that occupies her mind and fulfills her needs for positive social interactions, a sense of accomplishment, etc. -- a lot of this other stuff is likely to fall by the wayside.

I don't really have any good suggestions on coping with the immediate situation, but this is what I think will help in the long term.


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittn* 
You could call them consequences, but if they are imposed by the parent they become punishments. There are natural consequenses, like refusing to wear a coat when its cold. the child makes that choice and when they get outside and get cold they have anatural consequence, they learn and put their coat on. Like with the door for DS1. He broke it, I could not afford to replace it, it was a hazard to leave it up half broken. he was without a door. he had other options to promote his privacy, he chose to stay without the door until he had the money to fix it. KWIM
maybe someone can explain it better than I can

Some things REQUIRE parent intervention. Running away from home, Amber Alerts, etc. What will be the natural consequence that will teach her a lesson? The natural consequence could be very very dangerous.

If your child wanted to try drugs, would you just wait for the natural consequence?

I really do not understand where you are coming from at all. I think this child is begging for limits and structure. If done correctly, a child feels loved. Our #1 job as a parent is to keep our children safe, even if they are not always happy with the rules at the time.

I think its wonderful that you are all striving to respect your children, but that respect should be mutual. This child is crying out for help.
XOXO
B


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BethSLP* 
Some things REQUIRE parent intervention. Running away from home, Amber Alerts, etc. What will be the natural consequence that will teach her a lesson? The natural consequence could be very very dangerous.

If your child wanted to try drugs, would you just wait for the natural consequence?

I really do not understand where you are coming from at all. I think this child is begging for limits and structure. If done correctly, a child feels loved. Our #1 job as a parent is to keep our children safe, even if they are not always happy with the rules at the time.

I think its wonderful that you are all striving to respect your children, but that respect should be mutual. This child is crying out for help.
XOXO
B

Yes, some things do require parental intervention. However that being said, there is a huge difference between parental intervention and punishing a child. Limits and structure can be imposed without punishing a child. I don't punish my children but I am quite consistent with what is OK and what is most certainly not OK. Natural consequences for running away & an amber alert would be having to answer to the police. I would not stand in between those consequences and my child. AFA drug use, If it were my child and I KNEW they were taking drugs, they would be enrolled in a treatment program, set up in counseling and that isn't a ball of laughs trust me. The child would also loose my trust. I hope my children will understand the damage that drugs can do, and I pray they never go that route. Do I know they wont, no. I can only hope that with their own unique personality that I have given them enough to know it isn't a good idea.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

op

how are things

a


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Hi, I just wanted to offer some love and support, from someone who has btdt. I also wanted to reiterate the possibility of drug use. I had my blinders on re: my dd's drug use for a year before it finally became too clear to ignore any more. Its a very hard one, I was very fearful of confronting the issue because I didn't want to alienate her further. believe in yourself, you know in your heart what is right ... I know it can be so hard when everyone is telling you to crack down and tough love and all that and you start to doubt yourself because all your good gd work seems to be having the opposite results. Hang strong - you and your dd will get through.


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## lesley&grace (Jun 7, 2005)

First:







You must have been out of your mind with worry. I am so glad she is home and safe.

I am also so glad you were able to find a counseller who fits with your dd and your parenting philosophy. A good fit can be really hard to find, I know someone who really needs therapy to deal with some childhood issues, but after 4 different bad fits with therapists she gave up...and instead buries her problems in daily drug use.

My first instinct would have been to never ever let her out of my sight again. But that's unrealistic. Cell phone would be gone, especially since for the time being she probably should not be anywhere where you, your dh, or a trusted adult superviser is not.

As for the boyfriend issue: I do think she is too young, but at the same time I had "boyfriends" at that age. Nothing really serious, although I did have dreams of marriage and together-foreverness. It's a tough call to make, since my parents had told me I not allowed to have boyfriends, so I hid it. I do think that in this situation her contact with anyone needs to be monitered, so I would make sure that if she is in contact with this boy over the phone, it needs to be in a family area (read: next to you so you can hear) where you can be sure that she is not making plans for another debacle with him. Same goes for contact with the cousin. There will most likely be those who will say "oh, that is not respectful of her privacy" but frankly, she broke your trust big time and the consequence to that would have to be (IMO anyway) that it's going to be awhile before you can trust her to have private phone conversations or time alone with peers.

Making restitution to the police department is a good idea. I would arrange to have her speak to the officers who worked so hard to find her, and have them explain to her exactly what an Amber Alert is and when it should be used. I am not sure of where you are, but I know there are some areas where if you cause mischief like this, then there can be fines that need to be paid (for example, a false 911 call here can cost a lot of money, which is why you are not allowed to have 911 programed in any speed dial on your home or cell phone). Maybe there is some community work that she can do to make up for wasting valuable time that could have been spent on other, more troublesome crimes. We have a program here called Restorative Justice where young offenders can make amends to those they hurt, you may want to look into something like that when she is ready to make up for what she has done (she won't learn a lesson if she feels resentful for having to do it).

I am happy to hear you are commited to doing this with love...my dh's ex was about 11 or 12 when she decided she had enough and made false allegations of abuse against her stepmom and got herself removed to foster care. By 14 she decided she didn't like that either, ran away, and although she denies it supposedly she was hooking. At 14. And no, she was by no stretch of the imagination a virgin when she started (over 100+ partners by choice by age 16). I should also say here that there are many many other factors in why she went down this path, but much of it had to do with very disturbed childhood, lots of alcohol abuse in her family home and by the time her dad cleaned up his act she was already well out of control and it was easier to give up. She is a master manipulator, and has done so much damage to her body she looks about 20 years older than she is. It's a very sad situation. I am not telling you this because I think your daughter is headed this way...this is just an extreme example of how bad it can get when parents are not willing to put in the work required to help out their kids.

It sounds like from your updates that things are looking better. I do hope that you continue down that path. It's good that you have experiences to share with your dd that do not glorify the behaviour but show that you really do know where she is coming from. Someday, when she is older, I hope she will look back on this time and think "Wow, my parents were really commited to making it in this world. I hope that I can be like my mom when the time comes for me to parent."


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lesley&grace* 
First:









I do think that in this situation her contact with anyone needs to be monitered, so I would make sure that if she is in contact with this boy over the phone, it needs to be in a family area (read: next to you so you can hear) where you can be sure that she is not making plans for another debacle with him. Same goes for contact with the cousin. There will most likely be those who will say "oh, that is not respectful of her privacy" but frankly, she broke your trust big time and the consequence to that would have to be (IMO anyway) that it's going to be awhile before you can trust her to have private phone conversations or time alone with peers.

"

Honestly I think this is a good balance. it gives her some freedom without letting her have free reign


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

I would get your daughter into some volunteer work - something that you could do together. Perhaps you could have the police impose it as a consequence of her behavior. I think that the right volunteer position would give her responsibility, belonging, a chance to do something meaningful, and something for the two of you to share. Sometimes focusing on others, especially others who have problems much bigger than our own, helps us to find what is important to us.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

I would get your daughter into some volunteer work - something that you could do together.
Great idea .. give her something to be passionate about WHILE opening her eyes to a bit of reality too !! Maybe at a battered woman's shelter, or something......reinforceing "stay safe" ?????

AImee


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

I don't know where you will come down on the cell phone, and I hope your counselor can give you some guidance in that area. I just want to remind you that cell phones can be GPS tracked. I would not do that for every child, but for one who has created a breach of trust, I am not sure it is a bad idea.

I hope that your reconnection with your daughter is successful and that you all come out of this happily and quickly on the other side.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Well, I read the whole thread and I cannot but say that I am in owe of how you handled this. You''re just the mother she needs. She came to this world to solve out a lot of issues, and she chose you to help her out with that all. What a wise, wise choice life made. ... I am really happy that you found such a good counselor and I hope she helps you too..


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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
I have to agree that the bf is not a good idea. We all know that it will end in heartache, and that even older teens tend to have unrealistic expectations that get shattered and cause them pain that they're not equipped to handle. (I.e., "We LOVE each other and someday we'll be married.") Especially a bright and spirited child with strong emotions.

I do not feel the bf should be completely removed from the picture. I feel it should be monitored, but feel a "phone relationship" bf is ok. Yes, this may put her in a position to handle emotions perhaps before she is ready, BUT if you try and totally eliminate ESPECIALLY in a time when she is crying out, it will only push her to go behind your back and could become much worse, very quickly. My father was very strict about this; I was the only girl of 3 kids. At age 15, no boys were allowed to visit, but I was allowed to talk on the phone. I was rebellious and ended up pregnant and gave birth at 16. Sometimes, even with our best intentions, we can cause what we were trying to prevent. Now, I totally understand what his intentions were and why he didn't want this route for me but I am also able to realize he went about it the wrong way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
My daughter started babysitting at age 12. She was an older 12, but still 12. She is 14 now, and is a favorite babysitter in the neighborhood.
On the other hand, I know several 12 year olds that I wouldn't trust alone for 20 minutes.

I agree! My daughter, who is now 11, tries to push me on the "how old do I have to be before you will let me&#8230;.?" (baby-sit, stay home alone, drive, all the other "milestones"). She tries this often, almost daily, but I consistently tell her the same - there is no "magic" age. It is a matter of maturity, responsibility and trust, which is earned through your actions. With anything I allow her to do that is normally "age based", I make sure she understands I am allowing her to do this because I love & trust her. I make sure she understands that in the event she has given me reason to feel I can't trust her to act responsibly in my absence (such as the main topic of this discussion), I will have to assume she wasn't quite ready to handle that particular responsibility so we will have to try again at a later time when I feel she may be ready. This also helps to encourage her to act responsibly because she feels the choice is all her own and gives her a sense of accomplishment because she feels she has "earned" something - she feels she is in control. Though I may have to "assert authority" on the matter if she wasn't ready, by removing the privilege or whatever the responsibility was, she understands why and is given examples of better ways she could've handled the situation so, when we feel she may be ready to try again, we've given her more responsible choices to choose from, without telling her one specific way she MUST do things (our way or the highway thing - everyone is different and she has to learn to be responsible while still being the individual she is).

Keep in mind - no matter how much she makes you feel she hates you, she does not! Keep on with everything you have and in the end, she will thank you and probably even feel bad for the things she'd put you through as a child (I know I do! lol)


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

"You could call them consequences, but if they are imposed by the parent they become punishments. There are natural consequenses, like refusing to wear a coat when its cold. the child makes that choice and when they get outside and get cold they have anatural consequence, they learn and put their coat on. "

..................

What would the natural consequences be as a result of this cruel and deliberate stunt? Having policing bill sent to the parents? Having the parents held responsible and charged with fraud of some kind? Having the police NOT COME if she disappeared again, and have her really abducted or missing? Doing it when she's a little older and winding up in juvenile detention?

See, this whole "only natural consequences" thing works fine when your child is two and safe in your home and is refusing to wear socks to bed, resulting in cold feet. It gets pretty difficult when your preteen fakes an abduction and gets police involved in an Amber Alert in the big, bad real world.

In this situation, as a parent, as an adult, as someone who is not bombarded by hormones and confusion and pre-teen angst, it would be MY JOB in the OP's case and in her husband's case to impose consequences for the safety and knowledge of my child, and the welfare of the community as a whole.

I don't go in for outside "boot camp." I wouldn't put my child in the hands of poorly trained strangers to teach him or her a lesson that I failed to teach him or her. I would take it upon myself to right the wrong turns, if that is indeed what led to this point in time. In this case, I'd only go as far as a counsellor, because it sure sounds like this child needs one, and I'm happy to read that she is now attending therapy.

I am really troubled by the level of leniency some of the posters are expressing. Some of the sentiments on here seem to be concerned with making certain the child never feels bad or guilty for her deliberate and reckless actions, and making sure that the mom doesn't have to be a "bad guy" and can remain the helpless, powerless, "good guy" - "buddies" even. There are no punishments or consequences or even firm expectations from the sounds of it.

I'm not suggesting that the poster hit her daughter, or swear at her, or call her names, or withhold food, or give up on her, or burn her diary, or put her in boarding school or any number of things that aren't reasonable or healthy, or GENTLE. But I AM suggesting that consequences for actions are a reality of life, and it is better the parents who love her and want the best for her impose them NOW than the cold, hard criminal justice system imposing them later.

I think, in this case, this line of thinking is logical. This isn't a 4 year old stealing a toy and that being translated into growing up to be a delinquent. This is a child old enough to know better deliberately causing a serious police operation and severe pain and suffering to her parents. If she were just a little older, she could be charged, and then she would be in the system and out of the parents' hands.

On behalf of the CHILD I am troubled - not because I have some deep, twisted desire to inflict punishments and issue threats - but because, to me, this child is practically screaming for limits, for consistency, and for very firm expectations, and some of the suggestions on here sound like the exact opposite of that, and they are being called "gentle discipline." That sounds irresponsible to me, and that's difficult when I'm trying to learn as much as I can about "GD" before having my own children.


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## BethSLP (Mar 27, 2005)

Well said, Trinitty!

XOXOXO
B


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

What would the natural consequences be as a result of this cruel and deliberate stunt?
This is where your conclusions are based upon a different premise than mine. I assume positive intent about other's actions. Behaviors are messages of underlying needs. I hear that you perceive imposed punishments or consequences could help to protect her. I understand your desire to help her to learn about the dangers of the world. My focus would be on connecting so that she doesn't run head long into the "real world", that you feel is dangerous, without awareness and consideration of its effects on others, especially the people we care about. The paradox is that choosing to impose punishments FURTHER alienates, rather than connects. Disconnection from loving and nurturing mature adult role models is what got her into this, imo.

Pat


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## HappyGoLucky (Jan 8, 2007)

Your post sent chills down my entire body. I don't have any advice, but I'm sending love...


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Pat,

Thank you for understanding the motivation behind my suggestions, and not just saying that I was wrong or mean, or unlearned, or whatever.

But, I must ask, I'm not trying to be snarky and I mean this in all honesty:

What would the POSITIVE intent of this girl's actions be in this case?

Where do you see the POSITIVE intentions in what she did?


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

"You could call them consequences, but if they are imposed by the parent they become punishments. There are natural consequenses, like refusing to wear a coat when its cold. the child makes that choice and when they get outside and get cold they have anatural consequence, they learn and put their coat on. "

..................

*What would the natural consequences be as a result of this cruel and deliberate stunt? Having policing bill sent to the parents?* Having the parents held responsible and charged with fraud of some kind? Having the police NOT COME if she disappeared again, and have her really abducted or missing? Doing it when she's a little older and winding up in juvenile detention?

See, this whole "only natural consequences" thing works fine when your child is two and safe in your home and is refusing to wear socks to bed, resulting in cold feet. It gets pretty difficult when your preteen fakes an abduction and gets police involved in an Amber Alert in the big, bad real world.

In this situation, as a parent, as an adult, as someone who is not bombarded by hormones and confusion and pre-teen angst, it would be MY JOB in the OP's case and in her husband's case to impose consequences for the safety and knowledge of my child, and the welfare of the community as a whole.

I don't go in for outside "boot camp." I wouldn't put my child in the hands of poorly trained strangers to teach him or her a lesson that I failed to teach him or her. I would take it upon myself to right the wrong turns, if that is indeed what led to this point in time. In this case, I'd only go as far as a counsellor, because it sure sounds like this child needs one, and I'm happy to read that she is now attending therapy.

*I am really troubled by the level of leniency some of the posters are expressing. Some of the sentiments on here seem to be concerned with making certain the child never feels bad or guilty for her deliberate and reckless actions, and making sure that the mom doesn't have to be a "bad guy" and can remain the helpless, powerless, "good guy" - "buddies" even. There are no punishments or consequences or even firm expectations from the sounds of it.*

I'm not suggesting that the poster hit her daughter, or swear at her, or call her names, or withhold food, or give up on her, or burn her diary, or put her in boarding school or any number of things that aren't reasonable or healthy, or GENTLE. But I AM suggesting that consequences for actions are a reality of life, and it is better the parents who love her and want the best for her impose them NOW than the cold, hard criminal justice system imposing them later.

I think, in this case, this line of thinking is logical. This isn't a 4 year old stealing a toy and that being translated into growing up to be a delinquent. *This is a child old enough to know better deliberately causing a serious police operation and severe pain and suffering to her parents.* If she were just a little older, she could be charged, and then she would be in the system and out of the parents' hands.

On behalf of the CHILD I am troubled - not because I have some deep, twisted desire to inflict punishments and issue threats - but because, to me, this child is practically screaming for limits, for consistency, and for very firm expectations, and some of the suggestions on here sound like the exact opposite of that, and they are being called "gentle discipline." That sounds irresponsible to me, and that's difficult when I'm trying to learn as much as I can about "GD" before having my own children.
all the thiing i wsih i had time to put together so well and type with a 14 mo chewing my hair ---

ITA

I bolded the parts i really like

I worked in a group home, ad in am emergency shelter -- i had kids this young and younger who WERE in teh state custordy for such "games" (and for running away and so on) -- this is REAL this is not jsut a mom and dad and disresepect issue.

I am glad the OP found a professional to work with.

Quote:

I assume positive intent about other's actions.
and what could have been POS in this -- the girl didn't THINK she was doing something OK and make and hoest mistake, or misunderstand -- she KNEW what she was doing.

Aimee

'


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I keep thinking that poor Jill has probably had this same debate, with herself, in her head, over and over again. I hope that by articulating, we are validating her and helping her, and not making it worse.

You know, we don't know this kid. And probably the "best" way to handle it depends a lot on her, on Jill, her father - and on whatever terms they can come to with the help of a therapist. Their final plan of action might be really different from what many of us think is best. That's probably as it should be.

The important thing, IMO, is the fact that they are sticking by their kid and muddling through. Thats 100% more than a lot of kids get, and the most important thing she needs right now.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

What would the POSITIVE intent of this girl's actions be in this case?
**attention, acceptance and approval**

Here is my original response within the thread.

Quote:

It is my opinion that this child is crying out for attention, connection and engagement. I read through some of your old posts and it sounds like you have your hands full with several younger children. In what ways can this daughter be the *most important* person in your life? She found one way. What constructive ways can you build a relationship together which nurtures the feeling of being valued, worried about, and listened to? How often can you arrange time for just you two as a team, partners and friends who share her passions? Enter her world and enrich your lives as a mother and daughter with shared experiences, laughter and fun. Does she enjoy horseback riding, sewing, music, gardening, games, videos, movies? Plan set time, uninterrupted, for undivided attention proactively! She is screaming for your attention.
I believe the problem isn't the behavior, it is the unmet needs for approval and connection which fueled the behavior, _and which her peers provide_.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
The important thing, IMO, is the fact that they are sticking by their kid and muddling through. Thats 100% more than a lot of kids get, and the most important thing she needs right now.









:

Pat


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 

I am really troubled by the level of leniency some of the posters are expressing. Some of the sentiments on here seem to be concerned with making certain the child never feels bad or guilty for her deliberate and reckless actions, and making sure that the mom doesn't have to be a "bad guy" and can remain the helpless, powerless, "good guy" - "buddies" even. There are no punishments or consequences or even firm expectations from the sounds of it.


It's not about "making them feel bad or feel guilty" On a big scale of things - nobody can make nobody feel anything. She feels what she feels. Nobody can "make" her feel anything that she does not already feel.

So trying to make her feel guilty will yield probably as much result as trying NOT to make her feel guilty. Neither is a goal.

See, I don't see it as "leniency". I see it as looking deeper than behaviour on the surface. Behaviour (at ANY age) has reasons.

We can

a) dismiss the reasons and just try to change the behaviour (this course of action will be harder and harder as the child grows older. Nevermind distancing a parent further and further)

b) attempt to adjust the behaviour first and then look for the reason
(sometimes after the "concequences" are dished out - the connection is severed even more than before and it might be very hard or temporarily impossible to reconnect, so the reason will remain hidden from a view or a child will make some "righteously sounding" reason )

c) Look for the reasons of the behaviour, for the way to reconnect with a person so the resulting "behaviour" CAN be influenced by a parent (i.e. the parent will actually be listened to)

Now, do any of the above "guarantee results"? No. Neither one of the three. But if I were to try, I'd go with c)


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## Fiddlemom (Oct 22, 2003)

WOW....no words of wisdom as my kids are 4 & 6....but I have a spirited & defiant 6yo boy, just makes me wonder what's coming......haven't read the whole thread. I hope things are moving in a good direction for you.

and....YOU ARE A GREAT MOM!! I wish my mom had been like you. Wow!


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Hey







I was just wondering how Ariah is doing?


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I too have been wondering

how is the therpist working out

how is the family doing

how is the anger?

Aimee


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