# Yelling: When is it abusive?



## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Do you forgive yourself when you have 'exploded'? -Or when you've yelled at your kids (who might be 5 and 8 ish) because you are sooo frustrated that they never listen????
I've been struggling, well we've all been struggling with this one lately. The kids dont listen. I can say something a million times...... << I know







I sound like my mom or my dad>> and still-- uh-uh, not getting it









This Drives me absolutely postitively nuts!!! I end up thinking "what is this?! some kind of deranged 'lesson' from god?? and if it is, What the hell is it?" ...
I mean, I know i did this, my brother did too and so it must be part of the plan.

Anyway, i end up yelling. Am i being abusive by doing this?

I am trying to figure out ways to deal with our lives so that they will listen. If anyone has advice, feel free.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

OK, if the concensus is that yelling is abusive, then I'm totally out of here. Its not effective, its not good, I try not to. But abusive? Come on, if that's abusive, then what is real permanent-physical-harm abuse called? Or constant beatings? Or tie the kid to the bed and go out for drinks? THAT'S abusive. And if we start labeling everything that is less than perfect parenting as abusive, where on earth does it leave us? It totally trivializes what some of us have gone through in our own childhoods, it makes us feel like monsters, it doesn't actually accomplish anything, and it makes it really easy for those who don't yell (much) to feel superiour to those of us who have a harder time keeping our tempers.

And it makes it really hard for us to forgive ourselves when we are less than perfect. I doubt that anyone here has parented children all the way through to adulthood without ever yelling. I'm not saying its a good practice (and, as you can see, it doesn't work), but forgive yourself and move on to something more effective.

In general, you will get better "here's an alternative" if you give a specific example of what you are trying to accomplish and when they aren't listening. If you want to put out an example, I'm sure lots of people will chime in.

In the meantime though, remember that you are human, we all make mistakes, take a deep breath, apologize for yelling (because its not a respectful thing to do to anyone), and go on with your day.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Of course it's not abusive!!







We're only human. Kids need to see that. I think it has the potential to be abusive, if it's done on purpose with no regard for the child. But we all lose it now & then. That's life, ya just try better next time.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

I know I yell at my kids way too much. I need to find another way to deal with them. I know yelling isn't abusive but I really think the amount of yelling I do is pretty close. It makes me sad to say that but if saying it will make it change then I will. So I am open for idea's also. When isee my four year old hide in corner cause I am yelling so loud she is scared and I am scared well it is just scary. I would never physically hurt her but I am still scaring the bejesus out of her.
I just borrowed a copy of the playful parent from my API group becaseu I heard good things about it here.I'm not sure if it will have the tips I am loooking for but I hope so.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I actually think that yelling is abusive. Not abusive as in "should be a reportable offense" abuse (unless it's gotten to a certain level), but abusive in the sense that the child being yelled at certainly feels offended, mistreated, etc. When I lose it and yell (which I absolutely do), I can see it on my child's face that what I'm doing is wounding him.

I don't think it trivializes severe abuse to call lesser offenses "abusive" because language use just isn't that black and white.

Anyway, in answer to your question, 'Do you forgive yourself?" I do. But I don't forgive myself in the sense that I give myself a total pass and tell myself that yelling was an okay response. I try to forgive myself in the sense of recognizing what lead to that reaction and then using it as a learning experience so I can hopefully do better the next time.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

ahhhhhh... see thats what i thought. noone is perfect, especially not a mommy who is stressed and tired and about to get her period. especially not a mommy who Tries her damnest to be decent and good because she really doesnt want to be like her parents who did not have a clue how to function without yelling.

thanks.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

There's a part in "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen" about this, about ways to express our anger without damaging our child. I think it can be done. The older the child, the easier it is obviously. There's just a huge difference in screaming at your 8 year old, "You stupid &*%$, you never do what you tell me, you make my life a living hell and I hate you for it," and stating very loudly and forcefully, "I'm so angry that I have to keep asking over and over for help! It makes me feel like no one listens to me, and no one respects me!"

So I guess, yeah, I think yelling can be very abusive. More abusive than hitting, depending on WHAT you're yelling. And I think any yelling for kids under two (at least) is abusive.


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## Apwannabe (Feb 1, 2006)

just want to clarify, I don't degrade (sp ?) my kids when I yell but I do feel out of control and it is a scary feeling.


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't think it's abusive, necessarily, however it is something I am definitely working on. I can tell that it upsets my children when I do yell. However, I try to lessen the triggers (lack of sleep, frustration, not getting enough help, etc.) so I don't feel the need as much.
At the same time, it is good to model to your children that sometimes you aren't perfect, after and when i yell (I've gotten alot better!) I always say I was wrong to yell, I was just frustrated, and I apologize and promise to try to do better. Heck, from the level of sheer abuse and anger I came from, I'm doing damn well, and I realize I need to forgive myself to grow and try to be a better person, we as moms are so darn hard on ourselves sometimes, yknow? My kids have it so much better than I did, and hopefully their kids will have even more mature parents.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

If the kids are scared or otherwise hurting, it's abusive. I see it as how the receiver of the action feel determines how abusive something it.

When I lose it, I ask DS's forgiveness - 'cause that's the one that matters most to me. When he is feeling better again, I forgive myself.

And I also think it's fairly rediculous to say that something isn't abuse because there are other worse abuses out there.







: Really. I mean, by that logic, if you weren't burned in the ovens of the holocaust, then you haven't been abused.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

When I yell at my DS, I consider it abusive.

To me, abusive means that I am abusing my power and doing things which can or will make my guy feel belittled or demeaned. And I do believe that happens when I yell at him.









As a previous poster said, it's not like a "reportable offense, don't deserve to have kids" kind of abuse. But is it an abuse of power, in its way? When I do it, I think it is. Maybe other people are nicer when they yell when I am though.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Here's a question: do your children ever yell at you because they're frustrated to the nth degree that you just aren't getting it? How do you respond?

I think this is the answer to your question.

FWIW, I put myself in time out, and tell them that I'm doing it. Putting myself in t.o. where they don't get put is the funniest, most shocking thing they can imagine and it helps calm the situation back down a bit. I've also been known to leave notes.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
There's just a huge difference in screaming at your 8 year old, "You stupid &*%$, you never do what you tell me, you make my life a living hell and I hate you for it," and stating very loudly and forcefully, "I'm so angry that I have to keep asking over and over for help! It makes me feel like no one listens to me, and no one respects me!"

So I guess, yeah, I think yelling can be very abusive. More abusive than hitting, depending on WHAT you're yelling. And I think any yelling for kids under two (at least) is abusive.









: Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Bridge's Mom (Mar 15, 2006)

I consider yelling verbal and emotional abuse that affects the auditory channel. I find great difficulty to hear when people yell. This is not about beating ourselves up for the lessons we are to learn as how we learn gently and a love of learning will be seen and used by our own children. Rather, consciousness and acknowledgement is key. Being raised by parents who yelled left punishing emotional scars. Physical abuse can leave visible scars while verbal and emotional abuse can damage areas of us that the naked eye isn't trained to see -- this effects our psyches and emotionality, and our relationships with others including marriage. My folks yelled because they were nevere seen or heard by their parents and their needs went unmet. That translated to my needs being unmet. So when as an adult my unmet need creeps up to get my attention I sift through the cruel voices of yelling in my head and be gentle with myself --- saying the loving things I didn't hear. Practice with your children. As a classroom teacher I learned that when the voices got too loud to lower mine so children had to really listen to hear what I was saying -- whisper even. And, if you want your children to listen to you -- really listen, see them, slow down and witness what they have to say on every level even behavior is a story to tell about what they are absorbing.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

There is a difference between yelling as a way of life, and yelling because we are frustrated or upset. Can yelling be abusive? Yes I believe so, and I have seen, heard, and experienced yelling I considered abusive. Is yelling (and by yelling I mean raising one's voice) always abusive? I don't think I can go that far honestly. We yell when we feel like we've run out of options, out of places to go, out of time, out of a sense of humor. Yelling, IMO, for better or worse is communication. And because we are human and totally freak out sometimes we yell. In short crap happens lol. I do forgive myself, and I talk to my kids about it, and they forgive me too...thankfully.

Kids are sometimes (often?) not going to listen. Changing the approach might help (not picking, just tossing out an idea), not sweating the smaller stuff etc.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bridge's Mom*
I consider yelling verbal and emotional abuse that affects the auditory channel. I find great difficulty to hear when people yell. This is not about beating ourselves up for the lessons we are to learn as how we learn gently and a love of learning will be seen and used by our own children. Rather, consciousness and acknowledgement is key. Being raised by parents who yelled left punishing emotional scars. Physical abuse can leave visible scars while verbal and emotional abuse can damage areas of us that the naked eye isn't trained to see -- this effects our psyches and emotionality, and our relationships with others including marriage. My folks yelled because they were nevere seen or heard by their parents and their needs went unmet. That translated to my needs being unmet. So when as an adult my unmet need creeps up to get my attention I sift through the cruel voices of yelling in my head and be gentle with myself --- saying the loving things I didn't hear. Practice with your children. As a classroom teacher I learned that when the voices got too loud to lower mine so children had to really listen to hear what I was saying -- whisper even. And, if you want your children to listen to you -- really listen, see them, slow down and witness what they have to say on every level even behavior is a story to tell about what they are absorbing.

This is beautiful! Thanks.


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bridge's Mom*
I consider yelling verbal and emotional abuse that affects the auditory channel. I find great difficulty to hear when people yell. This is not about beating ourselves up for the lessons we are to learn as how we learn gently and a love of learning will be seen and used by our own children. Rather, consciousness and acknowledgement is key. Being raised by parents who yelled left punishing emotional scars. Physical abuse can leave visible scars while verbal and emotional abuse can damage areas of us that the naked eye isn't trained to see -- this effects our psyches and emotionality, and our relationships with others including marriage. My folks yelled because they were nevere seen or heard by their parents and their needs went unmet. That translated to my needs being unmet. So when as an adult my unmet need creeps up to get my attention I sift through the cruel voices of yelling in my head and be gentle with myself --- saying the loving things I didn't hear. Practice with your children. As a classroom teacher I learned that when the voices got too loud to lower mine so children had to really listen to hear what I was saying -- whisper even. And, if you want your children to listen to you -- really listen, see them, slow down and witness what they have to say on every level even behavior is a story to tell about what they are absorbing.

And I like what Dragonfly said, too.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Yeah, yelling is bad. I don't know about abusive, in every case, because you aren't always raising your voice to say nasty hurtful things.

Sometimes I say perfectly fine things when I yell, things that might even be effective parenting if I weren't losing my cool! When I can't keep it together and get angry and yell, it's either funny to my kid, or scary for him, depending on how he's feeling. Either way, not good at getting me what I want, which is peace!

One thing that has helped me (besides having ONLY ONE KID which I think makes my life easier







though I wish I had more) is letting go of needing my son's behavior to be perfect. Lately, as he's being three and needing to assert himself, I've said,

"No, I'm not going to let you do that (or, give you that, or whatever it is that he wants.) I think you will be okay. If you need to have a tantrum, I can deal with that now."

And then just be sympathetic and quiet if he freaks out.

Sometimes he wants something that isn't actually possible, like that i'll get the sun to come out. So I have to be able to deal.

Or if I can't deal with a tantrum--well, at least once it's worked for me to level with him and say, "I can't deal with a tantrum right now, let's switch gears and do X instead." I know that sounds insane, but it has worked! Maybe because I gave him something to do to help me?

He often doesn't listen, but you know I am bigger and I can stop him from doing anything that will really hurt him. I also know which values are most important to me to enforce. ("we don't hurt the cat.") So that source of yelling isn't my biggest one. It's more the tantrumy thing.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
There is a difference between yelling as a way of life, and yelling because we are frustrated or upset. Can yelling be abusive? Yes I believe so, and I have seen, heard, and experienced yelling I considered abusive. Is yelling (and by yelling I mean raising one's voice) always abusive? I don't think I can go that far honestly. We yell when we feel like we've run out of options, out of places to go, out of time, out of a sense of humor.

Yeah.
I do yell at my kids sometimes, but I wish I didn't. What I don't _ever_ do is put them down. I don't call them "stupid" or "bad" or "annoying" or whatever. I think my yelling usually boils down to "just do it!!". I don't like it, and I'm trying to stop, but dd has never seemed scared of me - I can't imagine how bad I'd feel if my precious 3-year-old were afraid of me!! That would be getting abusive, imo.

The other kind of yelling that I do sometimes - fairly frequently in the incredibly frustrating 2 weeks since ds1 broke his hand and needs help with _everything_ school-related and is SO unorganized about it - is totally undirected. When I just get completely frustrated in general, sometimes, I just yell "AARRRRGGGH!!" while I'm at the computer. It seems to clear out the mental/emotional crud, and leaves me in a much better mental place to deal with my kids rationally. But, it's mostly ds1 that does that - he's never been as high-needs as dd, but he's very...teenage right now.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Apwannabe*
just want to clarify, I don't degrade (sp ?) my kids when I yell but I do feel out of control and it is a scary feeling.

yep, same here.I agree.
Yelling , like anything really-can be abusive.My mom used yelling as a vice and as a way to disrupt /distract from normal conversation.Short-changing us all.
When i find myself get to that point(like today) I need to remind myself that gentle words turn away wrath.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Yelling certainly CAN BE abusive, but it isn't always.

If you're yelling "you no good little #@$^% get your @#$% over here and pick up your @#$% toys before I throw them the @#@#$ out!!" I'd label that as abusive, especially if this kind of interaction is common.

If you've had a rough day and the kids are overtired and in frustration you yell "Pick up your toys already!! I'm sick of tripping over them!!" then that would NOT be abusive.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think yelling is an abusive behavior but it doen't mean you are "abusing" your child in the traditional sense, know what I mean? I think anytime we feel out of control of our emotions to the point that we are raising our voices in order to shock/scare/get the attention of/control our child's behavior/let out our frustrations on our children, it is an abusive behavior.

That is not to say that I can honestly say in the 18 (+) years our daughter will be sharing our home that I won't raise my voice. Everyone gets frustrated, stressed out, hormonal, annoyed, and it doesn't make us monsters or bad people. I don't think one should live with guilt, especially if they try to make ammends to their child and are striving to change the behaviors that leave them feeling guilty.

However, I think when we begin to say "It's not abusive, everyone does it, it's okay" and treat it casually, it opens the door to thinking that it is an okay behavior and an effective way to communicate when we are stressed out or frustrated, and I don't agree with that.

My only advice (take it or leave it lol) is to admit to yourself that it is an abusive behavior, but that doesn't mean you aren't a loving mama and that you don't love your children. Admit to yourself it is not the way you want to communicate with your children, despite how stressed you may be, and commit yourself to finding other ways to communicate or to remove yourself (temporarily and non punitively) until you calm down. Make it a concious effort every day. That doesn't mean you will be perfect or that you will never do it again, but commit yourself wholeheartedly to changing your behaviors -- because the only people we can really change is ourselves.

Good luck and while you strive to be more gentle with your children, strive to be more gentle with yourself as well.


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## pumpkinsmama (Aug 20, 2005)

I think yelling in an abusive family can be harmful and abusive... As pp said, if you are calling child names/causing self esteem issues etc. I think that a normal parent getting frustrated and blowing up every now and again is just normal. I think it is damaging to expose children to repeated yelling/screaming matches... even when it isn't directed at them. Ocassional loss of temper or use of yelling to reinforce how much something is meant is in no way abuse. Constant yelling, screaming, belittlement for no reason at all or very petty reasons (ex. getting a water spot on the mirror) is. You don't seem to fit into that cat. at all!


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## mama2cntrykids (Feb 16, 2006)

Wow, I could have written that. Especially with my 5 y/o. He will not listen, he's always arguing everything and he always tries to negotiate. I'm beginning to think it's his age. Ok, I'm hoping it's his age or else I'm running away-j/k...


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## nikisager (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
Of course it's not abusive!!







We're only human. Kids need to see that. I think it has the potential to be abusive, if it's done on purpose with no regard for the child. But we all lose it now & then. That's life, ya just try better next time.









:


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I don't think anyone said it's "okay" to yell in this thread. They're all (as am I) striving to eliminate it. I think they're saying that it's okay/acceptable/human to lose it sometimes to a certain degree. I know that sometimes a lot of people admitting to something can normalize it, but the alternative-- bottling it all up and feeling like you are the worst.parent.ever because no one else will admit to yelling-- is much worse in my opinion. It takes courage to admit it. I admit it's horrible behavior. But if I yell "pick up the toys" without a personal insult or degrading language, I don't believe that is abusive. And I don't need to feel worse about myself, I feel crappy enough when I do it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

You know...I was thinking about this. I'm glad my mom yelled sometimes when things were too much. I always thought my mom was just...awesome...like she could do _anything_, you know? I wanted to be just like her, and always felt as though I could never, ever measure up to "mom". (This wasn't something she encouraged, btw - she didn't even know I felt that way.) The fact that she sometimes lost her temper and yelled when she was having a crappy day gave me a little more realistic role model...I didn't feel as though I had to live up to a Mother Teresa standard or anything...

That said, I don't yell much (although I'm kinda bad when I'm sick or have a really bad headache), and I'm constantly finding ways to keep my temper under control. I let my kids see it when I'm doing the "breathe deeply and quietly count to ten" thing, because I think it's good for them to know that I _do_ get upset and angry - but I also think it's good for them to know that I'm dealing with it in ways other than yelling and that I don't think yelling at them is a good discipline strategy.

As usual, I have no idea if that really made sense.


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## babibelli (Jun 4, 2002)

I struggle with yelling too. I think though, when I allow myself to be human and not always discipline "perfectly" I am more able to express my anger in a more healthy way that does not abuse or degrade my children. Perfectionism comes in many forms; I think placing unrealistic expectations on ourselves and our children leads to abuse. I have yelled at my kids, and felt horribly guilty afterwards-however, guilt does not help me or my children. Forgiveness is a wonderful gift-it releases me to be human and a good parent.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I am a yeller, I grew up in a family(italian) where everyone talked loudly which to me was yelling. LOL

Now if I feel the need to yell, I have a pillow handy, and scream in that like tarzan, I feel that we ALL need to release our frusturation, but it will not make you feel better yelling at your child, why not yell to a pillow, this would also teach your child that its ok to release stress, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

It may have something to do with family of origin and definition of yelling for some folks too. My husband's family is incredibly loud. It's just how they are. Many people have misunderstood my husband's volume as anger or rudeness etc.

I come from a quiet family by comparison.


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## Rio Mama (Apr 9, 2006)

This morning I lost it & loudly told my 3 year old to "put on your d--- clothes!"

He looked right back at me and told me to put on _my_ d--- clothes. I calmed right down & remarked to my husband that I was glad to see that our son wouldn't stand for abuses of authority. I gave myself a time-out & emerged shortly thereafter to find that my son had finally dressed himself.


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## KnitterMama (Mar 31, 2005)

I don't think the occasional outburst is abusive, particularly if you evaluate your behavior and realize your response was inappropriate. Abusive yelling is degrading, dehumanizing, frequent, and unquestioned.

My Idiot Neighbors from Hell are a key example. They scream at their three year old all day long, for the most ridiculous offenses, and they haven't modified their behavior one bit despite many complaints from myself and other tenants to them and the landlord. They scream constantly, all day long, and have no regard for how it affects the child or others living in close proximity. That's abusive.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I don't know if anyone watched Dr Phill a few weeks back, with the mom who was obviously verbally abusive, THAT is an example of what I call abuse.


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## MOM2ANSLEY (May 19, 2003)

Great thread. I find myself yelling HUSH to dd often.....she talks nonstop....literally....even to herself.
I feel that part of what you need to consider is WHAT you are yelling; AND that you are setting an example your child will follow. If you ALWAYS yell in frustration your child will learn to deal with all frustration by yelling. If you only occasionally yell....and apologize to child afterward, IMO your child will learn that everyone has to learn to deal with frustration and it is a normal emotion and that yelling is not acceptable, and has consiquences.
If you yell b/c your parents did but you try not to yell and yell less, maybe your child will also yell less than you anf one day the cycle will be broken... but I'm afraid that will never happen in my very loud/verbal family.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

It seems that a lot of the people who think that yelling isn't an abusive act are looking more at intent and less at perception. For me, the important consideration is how my child perceives the yelling, not how I feel when I'm yelling or where I'm coming from (i.e., doing better than my own parents, etc.).

That's not to say that we're horrible people when we lose our cool or that we're "abusers" in the same sense that people who beat their children are abusers. But, like I said before, when I lose my cool and yell and see the look on my son's face or how his body language changes, I know that, in that moment, he feels that I'm abusing my position - he feels abused.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

It's a pretty touchy subject for a lot of us here.

When I was little, my then-adopted parents would just scream and yell at me all the time. It hurt me and it was meant to. They told me one day they would break my spirit. I was 5 or 6 years old.

When we, as loving parents, lose our cool and yell, we are abusing our position of authority. But we are in no way intending to tear our children's spirit out like my abusive parents. It's not the same as abuse, believe me. But it's not right and we should do everything we can to eliminate it.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
For me, the important consideration is how my child perceives the yelling,......when I lose my cool and yell and see the look on my son's face or how his body language changes, I know that, in that moment, he feels that I'm abusing my position - he feels abused.


This is a very good point I think!

Particularly because the things that frustrate us as adults/parents are things that children (esp. very young ones) do not see/feel as frustrating at all. Like a 5 year old often isn't going to understand why mom is upset and yelling about some noise, or shoes left on the floor, or any number of things that can trip an already frustrated adult's trigger. A parent sees pairs of shoes left in the middle of the floor and might think, "Great. I/we just picked this room up and now they've left their shoes out again!". The kid sees shoes on the floor and thinks, "So what? It's just shoes."

I am rambling I suppose, but it made sense in my head. I hope someone is getting me LOL.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
A parent sees pairs of shoes left in the middle of the floor and might think, "Great. I/we just picked this room up and now they've left their shoes out again!". The kid sees shoes on the floor and thinks, "So what? It's just shoes."


I hear you saying that the yelling seems *arbitrary* to the child, as opposed to associated with a parent's frustration. When I have yelled at our son, he does look scared. He has even said "it is scary when you yell mama". I feel like it is a violation of his peace and body space done out of a lack of ability to control another person, basically an attempt to use my voice to force compliance. I also see it as a lack of internal self-control due to many variables. One of which is poor childhood models of effective negotiations and respect for the autonomy of others.

When I recognize that my needs to control him are a strategy to meet my underlying needs, I can look to see how I could change the situation to meet my needs without controlling him. Then I can be more creative because I can control *me* (well most of the time). For instance, we had an incident the other day where I yelled at ds. It was late in the day, I was occupied with the computer, we hadn't been outside for any physical play, he was getting tired (no nap) and restless (probably hungry) and started swinging a large inflatable whale at the cat in the corner. I was livid that he was potentially going to hurt her and definitely scared her. I yelled in order to *make* him STOP! However, in retrospect, I could see where I could have worked to change the situation to have met my needs for the cat to be safe and resting peacefully.

I could have suggested a picnic outside, playing ball outside, racing around the house, etc. proactively. My need to control him was created by my attention to something other than facilitating his underlying needs, which I believe is my role of as attentive mother. No, I don't believe that *I* am responsible for his behavior, but I am responsible for supporting him to meet his needs, ideally before they become destructive in their presentation.

Yelling was a message to me that *I* needed to control me with more awareness.

Pat


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## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

Do yourself a great favor and read, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. (amazon has it and book stores). We are talking here about the raising ourselves part. The subtitle of this book says: transforming parent-child relationships from REACTION and STRUGGLe to freedom, power and joy.

It sounds to me like this is what you are looking for. It is the only book that goes beyond teaching how to treat your child. The author knows that knowing to do right doesn't make it always possible to do it. She knows that emotions well in you in spite of your best intentions. She gives precise way to deal with your own reaction, so you can act from your love and not from that reaction. it is so beautiful, effective (much more so than How to Talk...book). I cannot recommend it highly enough.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
It sounds to me like this is what you are looking for. It is the only book that goes beyond teaching how to treat your child.

Actually, it sounds like it has the same focus as "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline." Which is a *great* book.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I feel like it is a violation of his peace and body space done out of a lack of ability to control another person, basically an attempt to use my voice to force compliance.

 I totally agree.









Quote:

My need to control him was created by my attention to something other than facilitating his underlying needs, which I believe is my role of as attentive mother. No, I don't believe that *I* am responsible for his behavior, but I am responsible for supporting him to meet his needs, ideally before they become destructive in their presentation.

Yelling was a message to me that *I* needed to control me with more awareness.
Beautifully put. I couldn't agree more. Interestingly enough, I see this in myself more with my spouse than I ever have with my children. Same energy and issues at work though.


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## barbara slezinger (May 27, 2006)

Oh yes, dragonfly, it is similar. But it does deeper and full of stories from real parents and children. it touched me more powerfully. But yet, both books are great. I think as parents we have to study and keep learning. Raising Our children, Raising Ourselves pupped me as a mother and gave me tools of love I didn't know were possible.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
.....express our anger without damaging our child. I think it can be done. The older the child, the easier it is obviously.









:

(I'm seriously not being snarky! I am just chuckling to myself. Don't 'they' say the hardest age is between 9 and 12? I have a 12, 10 and almost 9 year old. It isn't easier to stop yelling the older they get!)


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

In me experience it actually has been easier as they have aged. I think it's because their vocabulary has increased, my patience has increased (







) and they just have a more mature way of dealing with conflict as a natural part of growing up. We have less conflict (that is not the right term because it implies that we had a lot of problems before and we didn't, but I can not think of a better one right now lol).


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
(I'm seriously not being snarky! I am just chuckling to myself. Don't 'they' say the hardest age is between 9 and 12? I have a 12, 10 and almost 9 year old. It isn't easier to stop yelling the older they get!)

My 13-year-old can frustrate me as much in ten minutes as both his siblings do all day. My dh and I have had a refrain with him for about three years. It goes "I don't care if you _know_. I care if you _do_". So far, I've mostly avoided yelling at him...but I certainly do find myself doing the "AAARRRGGGH" thing occasionally. We're going crazy here.

On the other hand, many of our problems with ds1 relate directly to his schoolwork/homework. And, I'm going to homeschool the other two, so I won't be dealing with the same issues. (I'm sure there'll be a whole bunch of new ones, though.)


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I've read the whole thread and just can't see what is abusive or damaging about raising one's voice. You can say nice things loudly. You can say mean things quietly.

I'm pretty loud. I talk loud, especially when I'm excited, whether I'm happy-excited or mad-excited or frustrated-excited. I often gesticulate widly and sometimes my eyes bug out and sometimes I yell. My mom is the same way. My son is the same way. Sometimes I'm happy and yell OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS SONG! Sometimes I'm angry and yell NO DO NOT HIT THE DOG! THAT HURTS HER! and afaik it really has no more impact on him, positive or negative, than if I said it quietly. Sometimes my son is happy and yells LOOK MOMMY I'M A FROG! Sometimes he's angry and yells MAMA GO AWAY! and I have no problem with that, no more so than if he said the same thing quietly. In fact when he yells it I figure he's playing or angry, both of which are normal, but if he says it quietly I would think something was really wrong.

As a pp pointed out (but I think it got lost) there's a lot of cultural assumption here too. In a lot of cultures, loud voices are a sign that all is well, it's when the volume drops that you get scared.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*







:

(I'm seriously not being snarky! I am just chuckling to myself. Don't 'they' say the hardest age is between 9 and 12? I have a 12, 10 and almost 9 year old. It isn't easier to stop yelling the older they get!)

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply it would be easier to stop yelling. Just easier to "yell" without hurting feelings. It seems like a 9, 10, and 12 year old would be able to take yelling a lot better than the under-5 kids. Especially if it was not degrading, but just expressing anger.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
As a pp pointed out (but I think it got lost) there's a lot of cultural assumption here too. In a lot of cultures, loud voices are a sign that all is well, it's when the volume drops that you get scared.

I wasn't under the impression that anyone was talking about "positive" yelling (i.e., boisterousness, cultural or otherwise). I thought it was pretty well understood that we were talking about negative comments or breaking point yelling.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply it would be easier to stop yelling. Just easier to "yell" without hurting feelings. It seems like a 9, 10, and 12 year old would be able to take yelling a lot better than the under-5 kids. Especially if it was not degrading, but just expressing anger.

Please don't apologize! I just giggled when I read it. You are right about an older kid being able to process mommy being frustrated better than a two year old.

But boy do they know how to push your buttons when there are 12!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
On the other hand, many of our problems with ds1 relate directly to his schoolwork/homework. And, I'm going to homeschool the other two, so I won't be dealing with the same issues. (I'm sure there'll be a whole bunch of new ones, though.)

Have you heard of "unschooling school"? I'll find a link if you are interested.









Pat


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Have you heard of "unschooling school"? I'll find a link if you are interested.









Pat

<waving hand wildly> I'm interested! I'm pretty sure I'm going to homeschool my middle schooler next year....


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I wasn't under the impression that anyone was talking about "positive" yelling (i.e., boisterousness, cultural or otherwise). I thought it was pretty well understood that we were talking about negative comments or breaking point yelling.

Yeah, but in a family where yelling is the cultural norm, yelling "SHUT UP!" might not mean much, but saying "SHUT UP!" in a quieter tone might be very threatening. If yelling is scary or threatening or abusive in your family or culture, ok, I can respect that. I'm just not getting what is supposed to be inherently bad about it. Maybe I still don't understand what this thread is about.


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## happyfrog (Aug 12, 2004)

This has been an interesting thread to read along. I frustrated myself A LOT last week with the yelling and the loud growling (I use my loud 'growling' voice when I get REALLY upset. ds thinks it's funny.) It's a way for me to vent my frustration w/o (hopefully) causing emotional harm to my wee ones.

I spend a lot of time on my knees mopping up one mess or another, so I've started taking the time to pray for the wee ones who caused the mess. Surprisingly, it's helped me have a bit more patience. Either that, or it helps me get over the complete irritation of cleaning up again. . ..

Anyways, I know I'm not the only one who loses my cool. I do apologize to my kids if I do start the yelling.

I liked the time out mommy idea, lol but quite honestly, I'd be afraid of the new chaos I'd return to in 2 minutes. .. .

I think of each day as a fresh slate and I do try my best to be the best mommy I can be. Housework can wait if the kids are being particularly challenging and we go out in the backyard or something to change the tone going on.

mommy to 2 children - one 2, one 4 months. . . ..


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
<waving hand wildly> I'm interested! I'm pretty sure I'm going to homeschool my middle schooler next year....

Is your interest in

unschooling IN school
unschooing OUT of school

or
homeschooling out of school?

All are possible.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyfrog*
I spend a lot of time on my knees mopping up one mess or another, so I've started taking the time to pray for the wee ones who caused the mess. Surprisingly, it's helped me have a bit more patience. Either that, or it helps me get over the complete irritation of cleaning up again. . ..


I keep a drawer full of wash clothes and ds can reach them. I just talk out loud when there is a mess 'I need a wash cloth, here they are, I'm going to wipe this up....' At around age 2.5, ds was begging for wash clothes to help.







He didn't see it as a chore, he wanted in on the activity. Now he will run to get a wash clothe quicker than I can get there. And he will wipe stuff up alone if it is a small spill. So, my suggestion (unsolicited







) is to ask for dd to help with a part and she probably will enjoy it, if you do it together.

Pat


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I keep a drawer full of wash clothes and ds can reach them. I just talk out loud when there is a mess 'I need a wash cloth, here they are, I'm going to wipe this up....'

 I did this with many things too. Dishes, sweeping, putting away laundry, etc.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
I did this with many things too. Dishes, sweeping, putting away laundry, etc.









This has what's been pushing my buttons lately. I feel so awful about it, but when she starts pulling the chair over to help me cook, I sometimes want her to go watch TV.







Yucky pregnancy hormones!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
This has what's been pushing my buttons lately. I feel so awful about it, but when she starts pulling the chair over to help me cook, I sometimes want her to go watch TV.







Yucky pregnancy hormones!


Aww







That's ok mama, perfection isn't expected, just that we keep on trying!


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

ooooh you're pregnant natensarah?? congrats. I want to try for a third sometime, but fear for my sanity. I need to start a "how do you know if you're ready" thread.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
ooooh you're pregnant natensarah?? congrats. I want to try for a third sometime, but fear for my sanity. I need to start a "how do you know if you're ready" thread.

Thanks! I don't know if we were, I was pretty surprised since I was/am still nursing sooo much. My ds is only going to be 19 months. I hope we can do it!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I think a good well placed yell is sometimes not such a bad thing! Especially if it catches them off guard. LOL

BUT, if you are yelling things like "WHat the hell is wrong with you?" or "I cannot believe you are this stupid". That ventures in to verbal abuse.


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