# What do you think of Barbara Coloroso's "Kids Are Worth It?" (long)



## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I need lots of answers here. We're going through a real parenting mess. We have on our hands a child (DS,8, only child, homeschooled) who is frequently disrespectful, uncooperative, snarky, and even violent (kicks, hits). In other words we have messed up, big time, with all of our unconventional parenting. Or could the reason be the traces of "conventional parenting" that was leftover because leaving your own childhood upbringing behind is so nearly impossible when there's no clear idea of what TO do that's better. (Yes we are seeking family counseling for the anger-management stuff but we haven't found someone yet; this forum post is so I can gather some advice beforehand.)

Don't get me wrong, he's a really happy kid with a terrific sense of humor and a big heart, but, let's face it, when he hears No about something he cares deeply about or when we want his help on something, he can get downright ugly if he doesn't feel like complying. I mean, sometimes he definitely helps willingly under lots of circumstances, like when we say hey can you grab this bag; I've got too much to carry, or Can you please bring those dishes to the kitchen....little on-the-fly stuff. But the BIG stuff, like keeping his room from looking like something out of the show Hoarders, or getting ready to be somewhere on time, or the really BIG one....BEDTIME, there is nothing but conflict. Don't get me wrong, he is a night owl and we always used to just let him stay up and draw all night because that's when he got his most creative....but it was affecting the family so adversely, because he cannot seem to restrain himself from coming out to talk to us every so often NO MATTER THE HOUR (i.e. waking me up at 12:30 a.m. to ask me how to spell a word so he could write it in his comic that he's drawing). We need adult time. We absolutely need adult time, thinking time, etc. and he just doesn't keep to himself at all when we need that peace time. These are frustrating areas for us and we need to learn a way that's not "kid walks all over us" but at the same time isn't "punishment-based do-it-or-else parenting"

I happen to think that Barbara Coloroso's approach looks very wise. She seems to not advise parents to abdicate from running the household, but has a sort of three-pronged approach when your kid doesn't want to do as you say:

--they may WANT to do X fun thing instead,

--but they NEED to do X that you are asking them,

--but they have RIGHT to be treated with respect and dignity.

I need a discussion on this. I've been alone all weekend--lots of time to think-- but DH and DS are going to be back today. My buttons will be pushed. I refuse to be an angry parent and get sucked into power dynamics, but anarchy is not an option either. I am afraid all my earthy-crunchy hands-off experiments are paying off with a spoiled child who doesn't follow the rules of consideration for others or for learning responsible habits. It was so embarrassing at swim class the other day, with him squirting the other kids with water during free-swim time. I told him not to do it, but apparently he was still squirting it too close to their heads and it was annoying people....I am so, so tired of him not listening, and frankly it's embarrassing. All the other little homeschoolers looked so happy and content....mine, who has gotten his way so much of the time and now seems to think he's king (he has said so), feels no compulsion to care about the rules one bit. I can see that the result is not good. What have I done. Help!


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

He's a child. You are the parent. Some topics, ideas are up for discussion and some things won't be.

I always made sure my kids followed the safety rules. No debate allowed. If they tried to disobey, they could spend plenty of quiet time in their rooms. A bare room. No tv or computer in there.

Other things are up for kid input. Want beans? Sure. Steak.. I'll buy some for Tuesday night. Want to picnic instead of eating at the table.. how about Friday evening? Notice none of those were no's but I did delay the kid satisfaction/instant gratification thing.

Find a sitter who can deal with him and have a regular date night. Schedule more fun, family outings and make the behavior expectations clear before you go. If he acts up, you all need to leave.

The pool thing... I would have packed him out after the third time of not listening. No person has the right ruin another person's good time. You may only have to pull rank a handful of times before he gets the message.

Oh, and bedtime? If he is more exercised in the evening he may sleep better at night but he needs to stay in him room between the midnight and six am times. He's old enough to read a clock. Don't let his messing with your sleep ruin your health. Take him on a hardy walk after dinner. Or have your hubby take him for some father/son time... or rotate so you'll both get break.

Okay, hope none of that sounds too harsh to you. Good luck.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

It doesn't sound harsh and I agree with all of what you say, but somewhere along the line we lost traction and it becomes battles. And battles make people angry, and WOW do we know how to get angry.

A lot of parents who were themselves parented effectively do not understand how CLUELESS some of us are. Seriously. Growing up, my penalty for disobeying would have been to get hit by my dad. It happened right across the face a few times too! I wasn't even 4 years old one time when that happened. Now, obviously we don't want to do that, and started out with time outs when our son was young. But his response was always to kick and bite etc. So that was hardly gentle discipline. But anyway.....not to run through the entire litany, but yeah, lots of people say "you are the parents" but how to ACTUALLY implement the parenty stuff without being like our own parents who went too far the other way.....it is hard without actual concrete IDEAS.

As for the pool, yes, I did actually remove him from the pool. I mean, I said "time to get out of the pool" and was relieved that he actually did. I don't like that gray area of doubt. I want to get the authority I somehow gave away. Had he said No, then I would be forced to choose between (a) letting him keep tormenting the other kids or (b) threaten him with something in order to get him out of the pool. (because he's too big to TAKE out.) And that brings on the battle.

Now, if I'm reading Coloroso's book correctly, there is a third way, which doesn't involve threats but, if we survived the pool incident, would involve some kind of consequence after the fact. Now, I cannot actually impose an in-kind consequence here, such as "Because you didn't follow the pool rules, we are not going back." He can't just get out of things by misbehaving. I WANT him to take the lessons because he is eight years old and I am TIRED of not being able to enjoy boating and other water activities as a family. I thought I'd wait til he is ready, but when it starts to affect the whole family, then no....he's going to take the lessons, which will (he doesn't know this yet) result in much more fun for all of us. So yeah, he needs to go back to swim lessons. I'm not sure what the consequence should have been, had he outright defied me, which he didn't.

I know that I lost ground early on....parents who early in the child's life set themselves up in a position of being a respected authority no longer have to threaten and go through this. It's all automatic by then. But we didn't do that. We made mistakes. By avoiding authoritarian jerks, we got squishy instead. Unfortunately I did fall into reading (and getting thoroughly confused by) Dayna Martin's philosophy as well as Alfie Kohn. The result is a confused parent and when a parent is confused, the kid knows it.

So, the plus side is I realize all this but the down side is how to transition out of it toward a family that's more respectful all around. One thing I do know is I am DONE with battles. If I refuse to take part in power struggles and angry reactions, I will maintain my personal dignity and that goes a long way toward getting cooperation from what I've seen. There's nothing quite as deserving of no respect than an angry, threatening parent.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Does he behave well for others?

Swim lessons come into play under my safety skills/ life skills stuff. No wiggling outta those. I've got quite a list of things I wanted my kids to know before they were ten. Swim, ride a bike, make a simple meal, sew back on a button, use the library, basic first aid and how to call 911.

And yeah, I wanted to be friendly with my kids too.. so sometimes I just said "this is my mommy job.. good moms do x".. :let's just do x so we can get back to having fun". Life is sometimes about doing stuff we don't want to do. So, let's do it and get it done with. My kids bought that for the most part.

We also talked about "taking turns" a lot with my two. Going to the park is your turn. Going to the back room to have a quiet phone call with a supportive friend.. mommy's turn. Trip to the antique car museum? Dad's turn. Everybody gets a turn and you need to be respectful of other's turns and know that yours will come around again.

My son is difficult and hard to manage too. I did find him a male, teenage babysitter and some other male role models to spend time with. My son had this idea that being wild was like his "macho" or something. I found some sweet, gentle men for him to get to know and he realized you don't have to be the biggest, loudest or hit the hardest to be a guy.

Yep, I grew up with hitters and spankers, too but didn't want to raise my kids that way. I was a little more authoritarian than most of my friends. Maybe I have low tolerance for chaos? You can make a child behave without hitting them. It takes patience and creativity but it can be done.
.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

He's good with other adults. I mean, he's not an angel, but when he's at a class, even if he gets out of line, he listens to the teacher when the teacher speaks to him. (This just happened to be free-swim, and the teacher wasn't around. Just the other moms with the well-behaved kids, whether in the pool or sitting on the sidelines like me, fully clothed.) And it was a gray area. I mean, FIRST he had been squirting the other kids in the head with the swim noodle (he wound it around him like a tuba and blew water through the hollow center.) They were looking more annoyed than amused, so I stepped in and said " don't squirt the other kids; it's driving them crazy" (he is not good at picking up cues) So he said OK I will squirt straight up in the air. Well I thought that was a reasonable solution. Him just swimming around, shooting the water straight up. But I should have seen that the water was going to probably fall ON someone even in this case. But I thought "Hmm....don't be a helicopter parent. Kids getting water on their heads in the pool isn't the worst thing that ever happened....after all, when they dive and splash, my son is constantly getting water splashed all over him accidentally....it goes with the territory." That was actually my thought process and thought everything would be fine. But then one of the other moms spoke to me about the noodles not being used properly so that's why the lifeguard started putting them away....so I felt embarrassed about this and took him out of the pool.

There are a lot of things going on here....one is my embarrassment at always being the one with the "troublesome kid" at these homeschool gatherings. It's been like this for years. He's kind of a rare bird and always bubbling over with energy, not always appropriate to the setting, and he has the attention span of a gnat if it's not a project HE is interested in. So a lot of it is me feeling embarrassed...AGAIN. But the other thing was that I hadn't heard what the teacher had said about the noodles. He had spoken directly to the kids as a group and it was a cacophonous echo chamber in there; couldn't hear a thing from where the parents & I were sitting, so I didn't know...maybe he had prohibited "wearing" the noodles like a tuba and blowing water through them? I can certainly clarify the rules before free-swim next time. So all in all, the swim thing worked out. He "misbehaved" but due to several misunderstandings on my part and then when I did have him come out of the pool, he did as I asked. But he was angry. I think he felt caught in the middle and didn't see what he was doing wrong.

Thanks also for your other advice. I appreciate it.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

If you say he's a night owl and does not like bedtime, how long does he actually sleep at night? Sleep is so important for kids and if he's not getting enough it can affect everything. Out of my 3 kids, it's my son(7.5) who needs it the most and if he doesn't get enough he has less patience, he's more aggressive, etc. How is he disrespectful? Have you talked to him about any of the problems you feel need changed?

Although you said he's taking swim lessons does he get to work out his energy, roughhouse with an adult?


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

He HAD BEEN getting all the sleep that he needed. He would stay up really late (like 12:30) but then the next day he'd sleep till 11:00. As you can probably imagine, this didn't work well for DH and me. For example, getting his homeschooling "lessons" (minimal as they are) done, going places we might want to go, etc. I was becoming increasingly resentful because I was becoming a shut-in. In the past we used to go so many places together, and we have had so much fun, even just exploring, or hiking or whatever. But when he sleeps till 11 the whole day is shot, AND like I said I have trouble getting cooperation to get ready & out the door anyway.

So last week when he really got aggressive with me, I can understand how it happened, sort of, because I had started to wake him up at 9 am (the time I get up). I thought that might be the only way to break the cycle of lateness. Unfortunately he was still NOT getting to sleep any earlier. I need to give it time, probably, for the full shift to take effect, but after 3 days of this new early wakeup time I bet he was sleep-deprived. He was actually complaining loudly about being tired. Nonstop, in fact, but he was stubbornly refusing to turn out the lights and go to sleep. (sigh)

I guess I just have to keep at it. He & DH have been away on a mini vacation for 3 days and I bet everything is getting thrown off, because I'm sure that DH and MIL were letting him have a wacky schedule.

Back to square one. The first order of business when they return is going to be a family meeting so we can all get on the same page. A better page than before.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh, and yes, I have talked to him. Maybe too much (i.e. ends up sounding like "blah blah blah....") He's disrespectful by saying "Well I don't care about the other family members' needs." or, as mentioned before, not respecting a person's request to be left alone to read a book in peace, say, after 9 pm. Just barges in, flops on the bed, starts talking, won't leave when asked. And yes, I have reacted nonproductively to these things....I get MAD which of course brings out aggression in him too. I desperately need a way to stay calm when I'm being dissed. Just have consequences be dispassionate and matter-of-fact.

As to the energy thing, he used to get more of it out; he used to play by himself in the backyard (there are no kids in the neighborhood of his age), but lately his favorite spare time activities are watching cartoons and building his Lego heroes and playing imaginative games indoors. Not physical. I cannot roughhouse, and DH does from time to time. I wish I could think of some kind of play equipment to get DS so he could get more ya-yas out. Hmm. Maybe a mini trampoline.....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mom2grrls*
> 
> If you say he's a night owl and does not like bedtime, how long does he actually sleep at night? Sleep is so important for kids and if he's not getting enough it can affect everything. Out of my 3 kids, it's my son(7.5) who needs it the most and if he doesn't get enough he has less patience, he's more aggressive, etc. How is he disrespectful? Have you talked to him about any of the problems you feel need changed?
> 
> Although you said he's taking swim lessons does he get to work out his energy, roughhouse with an adult?


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> As for the pool, yes, I did actually remove him from the pool. I mean, I said "time to get out of the pool" and was relieved that he actually did. I don't like that gray area of doubt. I want to get the authority I somehow gave away. Had he said No, then I would be forced to choose between (a) letting him keep tormenting the other kids or (b) threaten him with something in order to get him out of the pool. (because he's too big to TAKE out.) And that brings on the battle.
> 
> ...


Barbara Coloroso's book is my parenting Bible. It taught me how to practice GD and keep my authoritative position at the same time. I didn't like Alfie Kohn, it seemed I had to put too much energy into finding fun games to make unpleasant things more fun for the kids. It works for when they are 2, but when they get a little bit older I didn't feel it was right to trick him that something is fun to do when frankly it isn't.

What I got from Coloroso's book was that instead of asking the kid to obey, I should ask him for help and cooperation, in other words, to treat him as a person, as I would like to be treated. This worked particularly well with my independent, strong-minded ds. This means that we're both on equal positions, but I get the final word. I wouldn't succeed in making him, and wouldn't want him to obey me. But when I need something from him I ask for his help. Ds, I need your help to set the table, or I need your help to put your shoes on etc. In most cases, he is very good at helping. When he doesn't, he might suffer the consequences (eg: he didn't put his shoes on / get dressed quickly, he was late for hockey practice... it was one time only, after that, he learned his lesson).

If the consequences are not immediate, like in your example at swimming lessons, I would wait for a quiet time, like bedtime and discuss it with my son. "How would you feel if someone did something unpleasant to you? You know some of your friends can't swim / are afraid of water; instead of squirting water at them, why don't you help them learn how to swim?"

If I'm really furious at my ds and discussions like this don't make him see my point, I sometimes show him how not helping / not collaborating feels. If he wants a snack, he has to get it himself. I don't help him with his bedtime story or routine. But I do my best not to be in his face about it, and of course I help him with important things, like meals or giving him a bath. He got it pretty quickly, that if we want to live together peacefully, we have to help each other.

And I let him know how I felt. I sometimes say (less and less often these days): I'm very angry with you, I can't believe you did that! And I'm ok with him doing the same when he's upset, expressing his feeling in a respectful manner (no name calling or "I hate you").

I firmly believe that kids need boundaries (like all of us do). We need to find a common ground that works for all of our family, because we are all affected. For example, we need to compromise on sleeping time and arrangements: I co-sleep with dd (and with ds, until he was 3 or 4), but we must have a set bedtime, for the family to be able to function. Our bedtime was 8:30 and ds knows he can negociate that by 30 min, now that he's getting older. But he actually chose to go to bed at 8:00, because he wants to be well-rested in the morning, he says.

In other words, I understand that for your family swimming is important and not negociable, and that's a very positive thing. What if you asked your son for his help and cooperation to learn to swim, so the whole family can enjoy a vacation on the beach, would he be responsive to that?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> Oh, and yes, I have talked to him. Maybe too much (i.e. ends up sounding like "blah blah blah....") He's disrespectful by saying "Well I don't care about the other family members' needs." or, as mentioned before, not respecting a person's request to be left alone to read a book in peace, say, after 9 pm. Just barges in, flops on the bed, starts talking, won't leave when asked. And yes, I have reacted nonproductively to these things....I get MAD which of course brings out aggression in him too. I desperately need a way to stay calm when I'm being dissed. Just have consequences be dispassionate and matter-of-fact.


It might be difficult for him to stay in his room when he's not tired. Does he have something to do in his room, to keep him busy? My ds likes legos, reading books, stuff like that.

In this case, I would tell him how tired I was feeling, how I worked / cooked /cleaned all day. I would tell him about the plans for the next day and that I needed to be well rested to be able to do xyz with him. I would tell him that I might get a headache if I can't rest. I would ask for a hug to make me feel better.

HTH


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

And yes, he does have something to do in there...it's the whole reason he doesn't sleep. He draws, and draws, and draws....(mostly comics). But the interruptions can be for other things besides boredom. He could be in there for an hour and a half, but if at 12:30 a.m. he wants to know how to spell a word, he knocks on the bedroom door to ask. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom*
> 
> It might be difficult for him to stay in his room when he's not tired. Does he have something to do in his room, to keep him busy? My ds likes legos, reading books, stuff like that.
> 
> ...


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Alfie Kohn isn't about finding fun games rather than just directly handling things - that's Playful Parenting, and I can't think of the name of the author, except I think it might be Cohen so I understand confusion between the two. (That's a response to a PP.)

I really like Barbara Coloroso, but it's been ages since I've read it so I don't remember the specifics. I was also raised in a family where I was severely hit and humiliated as punishment, and had to learn from scratch, and I remember that being a book I read very early, at a LLL meeting when the first was tiny.

I think with things like the bedtime, it might be good to go at it this way: "You are a night owl, but I need to not be woken up by you at night so I get my sleep, and I need to get the day started a little earlier. Maybe we can come up with an idea that will take care of both of our needs." I think having him focus on other people's needs and understand them and have to incorporate them into solutions would be good for him. It sounds like maybe it's been all about HIS needs in the past and you haven't made a point to have your needs considered as well until just now. I'm guessing that'll take a while for him to adjust to.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Alfie Kohn isn't about finding fun games rather than just directly handling things - that's Playful Parenting, and I can't think of the name of the author, except I think it might be Cohen so I understand confusion between the two. (That's a response to a PP.)
> I really like Barbara Coloroso, but it's been ages since I've read it so I don't remember the specifics. I was also raised in a family where I was severely hit and humiliated as punishment, and had to learn from scratch, and I remember that being a book I read very early, at a LLL meeting when the first was tiny.
> I think with things like the bedtime, it might be good to go at it this way: "You are a night owl, but I need to not be woken up by you at night so I get my sleep, and I need to get the day started a little earlier. Maybe we can come up with an idea that will take care of both of our needs." I think having him focus on other people's needs and understand them and have to incorporate them into solutions would be good for him. It sounds like maybe it's been all about HIS needs in the past and you haven't made a point to have your needs considered as well until just now. I'm guessing that'll take a while for him to adjust to.


Yep, that's the one I was thinking about, playful parenting.

I also read Kohn, but a long time ago.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I like Barbara Coloroso too.

OP, it sounds like one piece missing in your household is respect. He doesn't always respect your boundaries or your alone time, and he doesn't always respect others. Part of that might come from your background - I SO agree with your statement that knowing what not to do is not the same as knowing what to do (my DH had the same problem).

DH and I have twin boys - 17 years old. In our house, we tried very hard to model the behavior we wanted the boys to have, and to maintain the same rules for everyone. If Junior isn't allowed to eat popsicles on the couch, neither is Dad. If Junior is expected to knock on the bedroom door and get permission before coming in, I'd better knock on his door and ask permission as well. Respect follows from that - we treat each other the way we want to be treated.

As others said, some things are non-negotiable. At our house, helping out around the house isn't about reward and/or punishment - everyone is expected to do their share, because we all live in the house together, and benefit from chores done. If I have to do all the chores, I don't have time to take anyone out for ice cream or to the bowling alley, but if I get help, there is more free time for fun.

Clear, age-appropriate expectations are important. Before you go to the pool again, remind DS of the rule about noodles, then ask him what things he enjoyed doing in the pool (if he can't think of any, suggest things you saw others doing).

Another thing - in the same way that you have trouble thinking of the right thing to do (but know what's wrong), your son might be having trouble figuring out the right thing. Try to phrase things in a positive format instead of negative - instead of "don't blow through the noodles", you might say "try to keep your water away from others". Be sure to recognize when he does what's expected without making a fuss. You don't have to make a big deal, but say "You looked like you were having fun in the pool tonight with the other kids - everyone was laughing", or even more specifically "I liked the way you watched out for Suzy when you were splashing". The more specific you are, the more he'll understand what is expected of him.

Exercise/activity - does he have access to a basketball hoop? a bicycle? Can the two of you go for a long walk, and spend part of it skipping, walking backwards, sideways, or zig-zagging back and forth? hopping on one foot? jump rope? hula-hoop? Those are usually things done with other kids, but they can be done alone or with an adult. How about soccer or tae-kwon-do? Gymanstics or dance? skateboard? cross-country skis?


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Well I have indeed made my needs known, ad nauseam, but I am starting to see that my "solution" to getting my needs met, after he clearly refused to cooperate, was to get mad and get sort of combative and punitive....or if not exactly punitive, how shall we say, very controlling (as in "I've got to MAKE him comply, now, how can I do that....)

I don't think that has been a very constructive way for me to approach it! LOL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Alfie Kohn isn't about finding fun games rather than just directly handling things - that's Playful Parenting, and I can't think of the name of the author, except I think it might be Cohen so I understand confusion between the two. (That's a response to a PP.)
> I really like Barbara Coloroso, but it's been ages since I've read it so I don't remember the specifics. I was also raised in a family where I was severely hit and humiliated as punishment, and had to learn from scratch, and I remember that being a book I read very early, at a LLL meeting when the first was tiny.
> I think with things like the bedtime, it might be good to go at it this way: "You are a night owl, but I need to not be woken up by you at night so I get my sleep, and I need to get the day started a little earlier. Maybe we can come up with an idea that will take care of both of our needs." I think having him focus on other people's needs and understand them and have to incorporate them into solutions would be good for him. It sounds like maybe it's been all about HIS needs in the past and you haven't made a point to have your needs considered as well until just now. I'm guessing that'll take a while for him to adjust to.


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## phaedra13 (Mar 30, 2011)

Just wanted to say that if you enjoyed Coloroso, you will probably also enjoy How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk. Lots of good stuff in there for older kids. Good luck.


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## MommyDOK (Jan 9, 2003)

I loved the book, although I read it ages ago. I saw Barbara do a talk on her bullying book. She is f-a-b-u-l-o-u-s. Go to see her if you can.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

WOW did we have a good night last night. (this is long, but a worthy story) First, let me say that when they returned from their weekend away, I went out for groceries. When I got home I found DS and DH in the midst of an angry screaming fight. DH was walking around all mad at something DS had done, and was sternly lecturing, wagging the finger, the whole bit. DS was equally up in arms. He was ranting about the computer "not listening to him, not doing what he wants" (he apparently had been using DH's computer, came up against something he couldn't do, and got rough with the computer. eek.) What to do? Well my OLD self would have (a) started to intervene and problem-solve, (b) probably engaged my son about how the computer can't be uncooperative because it's an inanimate object, and he's got to learn how to use it (all logical stuff). But this time, remembering my vow, I remained silent and put away the groceries. I realized that it was DH and DS who were fighting, not me, and moreover, DH was engaging in a way that I had specifically disavowed.

It was nice not to solve for them! DH ended up going back downstairs and DS went to his room, and I behaved toward DS just normally, because the fight had not involved me. When he talked to me about it , I did give him a tip for how to hit Undo on the computer when he makes a mistake.

I decided that now was the time to sit them both down and read something I had prepared while they were away (I write things down so emotions don't knock me off message). It basically stated that I was going to choose peace, that although we still expect the SAME chores and responsibilities from our son, I was no longer going to try and get anger and threat of punishment to get him to do them. And I apologized for something pretty insensitive I did last week, and stated that going forward I was going to be a peacemaker.
I also stated that DH and I still wanted the same things: for everyone in the family to do their work, for everyone to be respectful to each other, etc., But the message I was reading was from me personally. Everyone listened and was positive. I mentioned that although DH and I wanted the same things for the family, we are two separate people who may have two separate approaches, and that soon Daddy and I would be talking together soon about parenting. (There's no way I can get around this. DH and I will always be different. Our goals for DS's behavior are the same, but I can in no way guarantee that DH will embark on this new parenting model that I am doing. He says he's open, as he often does, but I am not sure he can follow through and won't revert to old ways.) So for sameness and consistency, I had to refer to our unchanging goals for him; our unchanging requirements.
Oh, and this is the best part. For a few months I had been using a smiley/frownie chart to keep track of DS's progress on chores and going to bed on time. It was pretty coercive; the deal was that each day if he didn't do a certain task, he'd get a frownie; if he did, he'd get a smiley. We had devised this system because we thought he needed more structure and that it would help. If he didn't keep the smiley to frownie ratio above a certain point, he'd lose his allowance, the stated rationale being that he had been copping the attitude "I don't need to help out around here" and we felt that why would we give an allowance to someone with that attitude. (very conditional, I know. One might also ask why would he want to cooperate and help out parents who had OUR attitude)

The chart system hadn't worked well. He can never seem to remember his tasks, which resulted in a lot of nagging on our part "because we wanted him to succeed" bla bla bla. I think that having "bad grades" on his chart and a perpetually lost allowance was causing him to feel more badly about himself than the "how can I improve?" attitude we had hoped for. Well last night I said that I was getting rid of the smiley chart I kept for him. I said that he still has the same chores, but the chart was gone. And this is the best part....I asked him to keep a smiley/frownie chart for ME as I went forward trying to be a peaceful mama. I said that any time I was rude, disrespectful or didn't listen, he could give me a frownie. But if I was loving, listened to him, respectful, kind, etc, EVEN when I was saying No, or an answer he didn't like, he could give me a smiley.

So we went on throughout the evening, with me doing my new model of respect. He blew off bedtime of course, but I didn't get punitive or threateny. I kindly reminded him that I needed my quiet time, and could he please keep to his room when it got late. And this morning I woke him up "early" and respectfully told him that I was doing so because it would help him to start getting on the right sleep schedule. I did not lecture.

The best part is how he really rose to the occasion. At the end of the night, he was drawing hearts all over the white board. Then he said (at 12:30, grr) "I have a great idea, mom. How 'bout I do a Smiley Chart 2.0 -- that is, I can look around the house and see things that need to be done, and do them on my own. Like, if the coffee table is cluttered. I can take the toys off it, put them in a bag, bring them to my room and put them away. All on my own."

As I sat there beaming, I was thinking&#8230;is this all it took? I removed the coercion, gave him some respect, and he was more than happy to want to help out. Oh, and he said that *I* had earned 5 smilies and a bonus smiley that night.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

That sounds wonderful! I do hope that this is the first of many steps in the right direction, and that peace does come to your household!

Your story points out how important it is to change up our routines once in a while, and to step back and try to look at things from a different direction.

Good luck to you and your family! I'm proud of all of you!


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## Callimom (Sep 14, 2004)

Congrats on a better night!

One thing I would suggest is putting some more emphasis on being proactive versus reactive. In our family that means a few things

1) a quick check in about expectations and possible solutions to expected situations before we start something. My kids still get a quick reminder before we head into the library for example. We have a catch phrase (hands, feet, body and voices under control please) and we have been doing it long enough that they know what that means, and they know that they get one reminder. If we are going somewhere with expected challenges (one of mine has trouble with noise, or if we are going to be with a family who is a bit more wild,) I will give them a reminder of options to help them deal with what comes up. I think it is important to give kids both expectations and some help in ways they can meet them.

2) I love the Neufeld philosophy of "collect/connect before you correct". In your pool scenario I would have gone to the side of the pool and called him over, bent down to make close eye contact and probably touched him in some way. It does a couple of things - removes the kid from whatever is happening, allows you to connect, avoids the I didn't hear you/I didn't understand situation. That eye contact and physical connection also helps remind me that my goal is to teach them.

3) My kids need more than correction - they need context and some help figuring out better options. When I talk to my kids about their behaviour, I try to follow the same pattern each time - Expectation, reason, alternative, engagement. So again with the pool scenario I would have said something like "hey son, we need to be aware of others around us when we are swimming. I noticed those kids aren't enjoying being splashed and sprayed. The pool is too full today for that kind of play.Why don't you go down the slide, play ABC game etc instead." And then thank him for his cooperation while making eye contact.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Karen, you are a very wise woman!


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

what a great update!

I wouldn't ask him to give you smilies though. It will work until the next confrontation when he has to do something he doesn't like, then he'll shred you to pieces.

But you know your child best.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I really liked Kids Are Worth It. I found myself in a similar scenario when L was 3. E was newborn, I was on mat leave, and all hell was breaking loose. I'd read Unconditional Parenting when L was a baby but somehow a lot of those ideas had gotten chucked out the window when she was two and actually started responding to coercion. Slippery slope  I read every discipline book I could get my hands on and two that I really responded to were Kids Are Worth It and Alyson Schaefer's Honey I Wrecked the Kids.

What I really liked about those two books is the idea of giving kids more credit and having them take on more responsibilities and really be accountable for their actions...also the idea that the more they put into a home and family, the more they are invested and the more they will cooperate. Since then I've been trying to walk the talk and really BE the gentle yet consistent parent that I want to be and though I haven't always been successful I am always improving and the vision and end goal resonate with me the way that other parenting philosophies do not.

I have reread UP a couple times and although I don't find it to be at odds with what I'm trying to do, I find it more of a guiding philosophy than a step-by-step manual. He just leaves a whole lot open and there's a lot of room to make mistakes. I know in my case I remember really not respecting my mom and never wanting to listen to her and all the epic fights of my teenage years (eeep, my mom didn't deserve me!!) So when DD was a baby I did not think to expect her to listen and respect...I just figured those were a lost cause and then tried to punish my way out of the mess. Surprise, that didn't work! I am also just not a laid-back person and am very type-A so a lot of the 'this too shall pass' and 'let it go' school of advice just doesn't work for me. I am more a believer that kids will rise to the bar where you set it, within reason. Once I accepted this, discipline became a lot easier. I will never be "the ideal" but me and my kids will be a lot happier if I don't try to be Naomi Aldort.

Anyway no life advice for you since my kids are 4.5 and 1.5 but hope you find something that sticks!!! You have the right to adult time and you have the right to a day that runs smoothly and don't let anyone tell you different.


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## Xerxella (Feb 6, 2008)

I just wanted to say I agree with this.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom*
> 
> what a great update!
> 
> ...


But another book recomendation that seems to be along the lines of how you want to parent is "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf. You may like it. http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Parenting-Kids-Preteens-Without-Punishment/dp/0374527083


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh those smlies were his own idea. I wanted to get rid of the whole "grading each other" system. Which we did, by the way. He was really just expressing his happiness that night....smilies haven't been mentioned since. And, I should say, we've been doing great. We two parents (mostly I, though, since I'm with him all day while DH is at work) have been following Barbara Coloroso's methods , even when DS loses his temper and stomps or yells; we've kept from getting sucked into a battle, kept our heads about us, and been very cool about things! I keep my mantra in my head at all times; I am a peacemaker & will not engage in struggle. I have certain expectations of him and I convey them. No threats.

We've been delighted with how much DS wants to be helpful when he's not "under the gun" all the time. His behavior has really risen to the occasion since we've decided to stop being real authoritarian jerks. 

Stay tuned.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *transylvania_mom*
> 
> what a great update!
> 
> ...


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Fantastic! Not only are you getting positive reinforcement for your methods, your son will gain more and more trust in you. This is a win-win-win situation!

Keep up the good work!


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks. And as I re-read this, I thought of something that I'd pass along that may help anyone reading this who wants to "go peaceful" but still have expectations of their kids (i.e. that they need to get ready on time for places, that they need to help around the house, do homework etc.).

One thing that happens when you do what I did (vowing to not engage in struggle) is the immediate rising of Big Parenty Ego's ugly head. Be warned! When you ask or tell your child that something needs to be done, even in the nicest way, they still might say No. Or sulk, or whine. At this point you will probably be able to feel it in your body as the anger wants to rise, and small little demons in your head say things like "I'm the parent, goddammit!" and "Because I said so" and "If you don't, I'm going to take away your play date tomorrow" and "Shoot, these things I'm thinking are awful but how can I MAKE him do XY or Z if I don't threaten!???"

Take heart. Take a breath. This happened to me and I got through it. I remembered Coloroso's book, and I just remembered to tell my child "this is your responsibility; you will be held accountable for it." And yes, there is a possibility (likeilhood?) that they won't do what you've asked! This is the hardest part; holding back from forcing, even when they are NOT doing what you asked.

I just look him in the eye "You will be held accountable; this is your job to do." and then, later, when he's asking for something he wants, some treat, some fun, whatever....you just say "Yup, we can do that as soon as your task is done."

I am not making this stuff up. It works. I just did it in the middle of this post. "Mom, can I go downstairs and watch the computer?" "Yes, as soon as you are done getting dressed. (it's on his to-do list) The faster you get dressed, the sooner you can get downstairs" And off he went to get dressed.

This morning, I wrote BOTH our to-do lists on the big whiteboard. He noticed "wow mom, your to-do list is longer than mine" (my little voice in the head sarcastically said "ya think??") So we've been doing our tasks and checking them off our lists all morning. He got the spirit of it "I'm CRANKIN' through my list, mom"

Anyway, there are more things on my to-do list that need doing so we won't be late.....gotta run....


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I am so happy for you - and proud of you! Especially the way you described the voice in your head. It's not easy being stronger than The Voice!

My sons are 17, high school seniors, so our issues are a lot different. But the same principles still apply: make the expectations clear, give them the opportunity to figure out how to do things for themselves, support their methods (even if they aren't the ones you would choose), and love them unconditionally throughout. Be consistent, but be willing to listen to suggestions and alternatives. Treat them with respect, and don't give them a reason to not trust you.

The hard work you're doing now will pay off for may, many years to come!


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NellieKatz*
> 
> "I'm CRANKIN' through my list, mom"


Awwwww.


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