# Sibling Rivalry/Positive Discipline...I am in need of suggestions!!



## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Okay. The fighting is driving me INSANE. I really don't know what to do.

To make a long story short, DS#1 picks on DS#2 (6 yrs younger) to get attention. I realize this. I put myself into the trap of mediator/savior and now am actively trying to back out of it. I sat the kids down yesterday and let them know the new house rules. I have ignored every fight/incident that DS#1 has instigated but at this point it's really going overboard. I know it's going to get worse before it gets better, but this is ridiculous!! They fought LITERALLY for 6 hours straight today. I had to go hide in the bathroom to get away from it!! At one point, I was sitting on the couch with DS#2 sitting next to me reading a book (DS#1's book from when he was little). I was nursing DD and reading my book. DS#1 came up, snatched the book from DS#2 saying that it was his. DS#2 started crying. I ignored it. DS#1 sat down, squishing DS#2 into the sofa. I ignored it. DS#2 climbed onto my shoulders while DS#1 thumped him with his fingers, making him scream. I got up and went into my room and shut the door. DS#2 freaked out and followed me in there. Everyone settled down, I came back out, DS#1 IMMEDIATELY started in on DS#2 again. I really don't know what to do! I don't want to reinforce the behavior by giving attention, but I'm at a loss for catching him doing something nice that I can give him attention for!! The minute I tell him good job for something, he immediately turns around and begins antagonizing his brother.

I am really not knowing what to do. Please help!!!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Insist on seperation without accessing blame.

"You two are not getting along. DS2 go sit at the table in the kitchen and I will be there in a minute to read to you. DS1 You can stay here or go to my room and play with your (well liked toy). I'll come in a few minutes and I can help you with X if you need it."


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

When there is violence involved, then you need to step in and not ignore it. Your DS #2 is being bullied and you need to be there to help him. You don't have to reinforce it by giving it excessive attention, but you do need to help your DS #2 out. He needs to learn some skills to stop his brother or you need to physically separate them.

I think it is fine to let them work it out if they are having a minor issue, but once one of the children starts to hurt another (either verbally or physically) I strongly believe it is a parents job to help out. I would say "DS #1 it is not ok to hurt your brother. Tell him with your words what is bothering you." Then be there to help mediate but don't necessarily solve the problem for them. Also, teach your DS #2 to stand up for himself by using his words to tell DS #1 to stop hurting him.

I am reading "Siblings without Rivalry" and so far, it has a lot of great advice. I highly recommend it. Even they do not advocate letting children work things out on their own when there is violence involved.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

You really can't just ignore it when there is that kind of an age difference. You really cannot just let a 9 year old pick on a 3 year old. You have to get involved.

Separating without assigning blame sounds good in theory, but this situation is different. Nine year old is old enough to take some responsibility.

My boys are almost 4 years apart. Older son *does* pick on little brother when he is bored. Its quite clear that he does this. I have a lot of issues with sibling squabbling, and I don't claim to have a solution for you. But the most effective thing I can do _when I know the root issue_, is to call him on it -- straight up, and without dancing around the issue.

Ie. -- _"You are bored. You are picking on your brother because you are bored and you want to stir things up. This is not okay. You are old enough to deal with your problem (of being bored) without taking it out on people smaller than you."_

Older ds will admit what he's doing, when called on it, and then look for another solution. He knows himself. Its important to foster self-awareness, especially with this age group. Its not enough for you to know that he's bored, HE needs to learn to recognize that problem.

You know, it would be easy to say that the answer is to keep the nine yo. busy. But thats not adequate at this age. Feeding him things to do is a temporary fix -- Our older kids need to take responsibility for their boredom -- they need to find their own fun, and it needs to be harmless fun. Heck -- at nine years old, he can pick up the phone and schedule his own playdate, if thats what he needs to do, you know?


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

I will definately try some of the suggestions!! thank you...I guess I was stuck in trying not to give attention....I knew in my head it was crossing the line, but really wasn't sure how to handle it!! It's almost like DS#1 has all this...angst..for lack of a better word to "work out" on DS#2 since in the past I do fully admit I'd usually jump in and "rescue" DS#2 every 5 seconds and would typically blame DS#1 without finding out the whole story. I'm having trouble walking the fine line between rescuing and not giving attention for anti-social behavior....gah.

I'm hoping my ability to cope (and my options for peaceful seperation without blame) will become easier when we move into a bigger place where the boys can have their own bedrooms....yes, *sigh* right now they're sharing...*double sigh*...right now they are SO sick of each other!!









Mamaduck- The thing is, I don't think it's boredom!! They are FINE if I'm not around...if they're left alone together. But AS SOON as I come in/they come near me, all hell breaks loose!! It is SO obvious that DS#1 is doing it to get a rise out of DS#2 and I!!! As in, they're playing peacefully together in the living room and when I walk through to change DD's diaper, DS#1 immediately starts to mess with his brother. It's disturbing to say the least.

Mtbikelover- DS#2 does try to use his words and say "I don't like that" but DS#1 blatently ignores him. In the past few days, DS#2 has begun to hit because DS#1 won't leave him alone, follows him badgering him and I feel that I can't reprimand for that because he's literally at wit's end!

I don't know how to enforce this without there being a power struggle....which I want to avoid since DS#1's OTHER issue (besides the attention thing) lately has been power issues....


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I would recommend two books
"Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me!"
"Playful Parenting"

The first will help you understand the 'separate without blame' technique that maya44 was describing. The key is that you treat squabbles as a 'noise issue' and separate them. Violence/hitting (even thumping) is not acceptable. But again, no blame is placed - the hitter is separated from the hittee, and reminded of the rule that hitting is not allowed (or sitting on/attacking, etc.) So, both your kids get the same reaction when they hit. The 9 and the 3 year old. Is it entirely fair for the 3 yo? No, because he's got less self control, but if you treat it not as a blame game but as a "we don't hit. period." then I think it evens out.

If they feel slighted, by all means, offer sympathy to the offended party, but don't intervene. I did this this evening. Ds got dd's bike helmet down from the hook, even though dd had wanted to try to do it. She came crying to me. I said "Oh, you wanted to get your bike helmet down." "{sniff} yes." "And you sound upset that your brother did it for you." "Yes, I wanted to do it!" She then put her helmet on and was off. I never said a word to ds. This wasn't between him and me, it was between dd and him.

The key to remember is:
Every time you intervene, it ceases to become about them and becomes about getting attention from you.

You never know the whole story. Without the 'backstory' it's not really fair to take sides.

I do sometimes 'intervene' when it's clear one child isn't listening to the others words 'ds, did you hear dd's words? So, what are you doing?"

The other thing is that it sounds like your 9 yo is really seeking attention. With a 3 year old and 7 month old, how much 'special time' with you does he get? Playful Parenting will give you some ways to connect/ideas so that your son gets his needs filled without the acting out. The author talks in that book that a lot of issues with siblings picking on each other as a cry for parental attention.

Together, I think the books make a powerful combination.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

Mamaduck- The thing is, I don't think it's boredom!! They are FINE if I'm not around...if they're left alone together. But AS SOON as I come in/they come near me, all hell breaks loose!! It is SO obvious that DS#1 is doing it to get a rise out of DS#2 and I!!! As in, they're playing peacefully together in the living room and when I walk through to change DD's diaper, DS#1 immediately starts to mess with his brother. It's disturbing to say the least.
Ah -- sorry. Was reading too much of my situation into it!!

I still think directly voicing the problem is a good idea. _"You want my attention. You are feeling jealous. Can you ask for attention when you want it, rather than picking at your brother?"_ I really think our bigger kids need to start having some insight into what motivates them, what their needs are, and how to constructively get those needs met.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Adding those books to my list now!! (Note to self!







)

He doesn't have a lot of time with just me. His dad does a lot of things with him, but just me?? I really can't think of anything!! Feel pretty bad about that. Maybe I should take him out tonight after DD and DS#2 go to sleep....


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

taking notes..


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

How about positive attention when they are getting along (or at least not bothering each other). You said they were fine until you walked into the room. What if you said something nice as soon as you came upon them not killing each other? Before they realized you were around and watching?

I definitely agree that enforcing separation when there is violence involved is essential to keeping everyone safe, even if one of them gets "assigned" to the living room and one to the bedroom. With a minimum of attention paid to the older child at that moment.

And yes, you probably need to make a real effort to reconnect with the older child, just the two of you. Even if its a silly as taking him to the grocery store and leaving the other boys with your DH (or whomever). Or asking him to help you cook dinner.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

We went out together today....(although when we were leaving he made it a point to make his brother upset by pointing out REPEATEDLY while we were getting ready that DS#2 didn't get to to with us. almost made me call the whole thing off. sigh)

We saw a movie he'd been wanting to see. We actually HELD HANDS on the way back to the car!!!







It was wooooonderful!!

I let him stay up with me tonight also. I don't expect his behavior to stop overnight, but I'm hoping as I am able to take more time out with just he and I that he'll gradually "wean off" the fighting/picking.


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Also wanted to point out that you have a 7 month old who is nursing which equals more attention NOT on him. Is he a slow transitioner? Maybe picking on little bro also means baby stops nursing? I was also told that a siblings stress level elevates when the baby starts crawling or talking. Is she crawling? More oneo n one time is a great idea. It will help you reconnect. If ou are connected he is receptive and then the issues can be addressed when not in the heat of the moment.
Good luck!


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

I've pretty much perfected the art of nursing through anything.hahhaha

Yah, she's been crawling for a couple of months now...right now she's on the verge of walking...she's creeping around/pulling up/holding onto stuff...

I'm just happy that he's an ok kid when we're alone!!

I'm very hopeful!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I do think it's right to sometimes ignore some things. However, I don't think it's going to help the children if a 9 yr old can treat a two yr old like this. It could become dog -eat- dog, as the two yr old will not always be small and be able to fight back hard. It will escalate.

I've always told my kids that how they treat each other will have a major impact on how fondly their childhoods are remembered or not. People need to feel safe in their own homes. Home is a haven. Have a gentle talk with the 9 yr old. He's old enough to get this. Take him out alone for a little lunch or something, and have a heart- to- heart with him. *Not* on his behavior, but at how much little sibs look up to older sibs & how it's not easy being the oldest child. (I am an oldest child, and the pressure can be great. It's nice for this to be aknowledged). Get him on board. Don't talk about how he does this and this. Talk to him about life and how it's difficult sometimes to be patient with toddler, how a little brother will grow into a bigger brother etc. Make him part of the team.

As for the teasing the toddler about not going out with you all. Take him aside, privately , when this sort of thing happens, and tell him how sad he might feel if that were to be said to him. Don't harp on it, but let him know that even two yr olds have feelings, and we don't want to hurt each other. "Everyone in this family needs to feel safe. Not getting to go somehwere can feel like we're abandoning him, and he can't feel safe. It's so nice to do bigger kids things and he could feel left out. Let's make this pleasant as we can for all of us. Let's remind him we will bring him back a little souvenir from the trip so he knows that while he can't go with us, we are thinking about him". The souvenir can be a stone from the place, or menu, the ticket stub, or something else free. Try to change the whole dynamic of it.

If after all of that, the teasing continues, I would consider postponing it, telling the older child. "I can't enjoy myself knowing one of you feels so sad. Let's do something else together". I don't know how you would feel about that, but depending on the degree of cruelty, I myself might feel so sick about the crying toddler that I could not leave him. It's not about his behavior in this case, it's about your emotional state.

I also have a 'rule'. There is no hitting in this family. There is a big difference between puppy play and rough housing and striking each other. "There is no hitting in this house. We all need to be safe in our home, and hitting doesn't help people feel safe". I would intervene whenever there was hitting and restate the 'rule'.

I have thoughts about setting up kid spaces, too, so they are not in each other's faces while you nurse. Can you set up a little area for the two yr old near your favorite chair? Have a job or two for the 9 yr old, or maybe let him use that time to watch a video in another room while you keep the toddler with you? Or can you set the toddler with something, and read to the 9 yr old while you nurse? Or find a book on tape that all of you might enjoy? My first 3 are very close in age, and I found this did help a lot. I kept audio books nearby, books, some crayons and such. If you can stand playdough on a little table near you, and a garlic press, you can get a lot of mileage out of that. lol


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Take him out alone for a little lunch or something, and have a heart- to- heart with him. *Not* on his behavior, but at how much little sibs look up to older sibs & how it's not easy being the oldest child. (I am an oldest child, and the pressure can be great. It's nice for this to be aknowledged). Get him on board. Don't talk about how he does this and this. Talk to him about life and how it's difficult sometimes to be patient with toddler, how a little brother will grow into a bigger brother etc. Make him part of the team.

This is good advice from UUMom.

One thing that has worked well in my family is to give the older child some responsibility in caring for the younger child. I will ask my 10yo daughter to babysit my 2 1/2yo for a half hour while I do something around the house (clean a closet, vacuum, shower, etc.). Big sister will read books, or they'll do puzzles or art projects. I give her a few dollars for babysitting, which makes her feel like a responsible kid. I think it's helped my daughter see the positive side of being a big sister. She sees how much her little sister looks up to her and likes her attention, and she takes pride in her role as Big Sister.


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