# when would you call CPS?



## aiea (Jan 27, 2007)

Hi all,

I'm a new mom. I never thought I'd be so hyper-attuned to other people's kids after having my own, but here I am. Please give me some perspective.

I have had two events happen that make me wonder when it's necessary to contact authorities about a parent's behavior. The first one seems pretty obvious:

A friend of a friend told me that she puts earplugs in at night so that she can't hear her sons crying unless it's "loud enough". Her sons are 1 and 2.5 years old. She also goes to the backyard at night with her husband to relax, leaving the kids in their bedroom to cry it out, play, do whatever, until they are asleep. She told me the purpose of going outside is to not hear the boys. So sad, it breaks my heart.







I DO think I should contact authorities on this one.

Second situation happened today - I was leaving a store and the lady parked next to me was leaving at the same time. She had multiple kids and said the F-word three times at them, very angry but in conversation. As in "get in the f-ing car you f-ing brat" kind of thing. I have her license plate #. The kids were elementary school to infant. Do I call on this too?

I feel like such a tattletale... I don't have good boundaries on this kind of thing. Please let me know what you'd do.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aiea* 
Hi all,

I'm a new mom. I never thought I'd be so hyper-attuned to other people's kids after having my own, but here I am. Please give me some perspective.

I have had two events happen that make me wonder when it's necessary to contact authorities about a parent's behavior. The first one seems pretty obvious:

A friend of a friend told me that she puts earplugs in at night so that she can't hear her sons crying unless it's "loud enough". Her sons are 1 and 2.5 years old. She also goes to the backyard at night with her husband to relax, leaving the kids in their bedroom to cry it out, play, do whatever, until they are asleep. She told me the purpose of going outside is to not hear the boys. So sad, it breaks my heart.







I DO think I should contact authorities on this one.

Second situation happened today - I was leaving a store and the lady parked next to me was leaving at the same time. She had multiple kids and said the F-word three times at them, very angry but in conversation. As in "get in the f-ing car you f-ing brat" kind of thing. I have her license plate #. The kids were elementary school to infant. Do I call on this too?

I feel like such a tattletale... I don't have good boundaries on this kind of thing. Please let me know what you'd do.

the first situation worries me alot, because kids can get hurt when they're left alone. Are they left together in the same bedroom?? because I have toddlers whom are 15 months apart and I would worry about the oldest unknowingly hurting the 1 year old seriously. Once I left my babies for 2 seconds to grab something out of the closet and my oldest was strangling my youngest (she didn't know she was hurting her). I would never leave kids that young to play or cry, what if someone was hurt.... I think I would try to talk to the friend of a friend or get the friend (







: ) to talk to her, before i called CPS or try sending her some literature. That's a tough one!!

I don't know about the second one either... no advice, sorry!


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

I wouldn't call CPS in either case.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I seriously doubt the authorities would consider either a risk.

I wouldn't report either one personally.

-Angela


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Although both situations are very sad, I don't think that CPS would consider either one a risk, except maybe the lack of supervision in the cio case, but even that's iffy. The reality is in mainstream America that many parents do just "shut it out" like that. Because the mother was only in the backyard, and didn't acutally leave the property, it wouldn't be considered abandonment; perhaps maybe negligence if the worker is picky. However, CIO is considered "normal" and even shutting the door or getting earplugs to block out your children's cries isn't widely unheard of sadly enough. I personally wouldn't call on either case.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

neither of these even comes anywhere close to the legal definition of abuse.

Cry it out is legal, sitting in your back yard while your kids are awake is legal (they were probably in cribs and therefore reletively safe), and swearing at your kids is perfectly legal.

not nice. but legal.

there is no point in reporting any of this.


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

check out fightcps.org for a perspective on CPS

also, perhaps you could try intervening in a loving way. The woman who swore at her kids was probably raised like that.

Your friend with the crying kids, I would give information to. Or even tell her that you're trying to figure out whether you should notify CPS.

But I don't think either is illegal.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I wouldn't call CPS in either case.









:

Both sad stories, but neither warrant a call to CPS.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

I would not call CPS unless I was 100% sure a child was being abused. While those cases are sad, in they eyes of the law, they are not abuse.

It would take something rather severe for me to ever call CPS on another parent. Once they are in your life, it's very hard to get them out.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

No way would I call for either of those situations. It's not a way I choose to parent, and it's not a method of parenting shown to have the best results, but that doesn't mean it is or should be illegal. And with all due respect, while you clearly care about kids, you'd probably be best advised to tend to your own business when it comes to parenting.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.


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## Individuation (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
No way would I call for either of those situations. It's not a way I choose to parent, and it's not a method of parenting shown to have the best results, but that doesn't mean it is or should be illegal. And with all due respect, while you clearly care about kids, you'd probably be best advised to tend to your own business when it comes to parenting.

Yes, basically that. Thanks, BSD.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.
















:

-Angela


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

What do you think CPS is going to do to rectify the situation?


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

I think you should trust your instincts.


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

I've had to call CPS on quite a few occaisions...from what your describing they problably won't do a thing. I know here(FL) if you make a call they have to come out within 24hours regardless of the reason. So it might be enough to scare her??.

I called on a mom who was doing crystal meth infront of her 10month old and 2 year old. Plus her house was unsanitary, cat poop everywhere, garbage all over the place, "diaper mountian" a corner in the house where all the dirty disp diapers went (gross)...DCF came out, and all she had to do was clean the house







: She just lost her kids, this is 3 years later, because she left them home alone for 2 days!!!! 5yr old and a 3 year old.

CPS sucks IMO!!!


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.









:


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kailey's mom* 

I called on a mom who was doing crystal meth infront of her 10month old and 2 year old. Plus her house was unsanitary, cat poop everywhere, garbage all over the place, "diaper mountian" a corner in the house where all the dirty disp diapers went (gross)...DCF came out, and all she had to do was clean the house







: She just lost her kids, this is 3 years later, because she left them home alone for 2 days!!!! 5yr old and a 3 year old.

Um, yeah that would be an adequate reason.







But as much as I am against CIO and everything the OP stated is happening, I would not ever call on those things.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

I know it really hurts to see and hear stuff like that. DCF wouldn't touch either of those situations though. This is considered fairly normal parenting, especially around our neck of the woods. I've seen some pretty bad stuff in public too









Are you in contact with the mom who leaves her kiddos in the house? Maybe you can befriend her and see if she's just having a hard time parenting. She might tell you these things because she needs help.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I'm gonna buck the trend here, coming from an abusive home.

The first example, is unfortunately what passes off as normal in America. She's following mainstream advice. I think you'd be more effective if you gently sent her some emails, dropped off a page out of the baby book, gave her some information on how CIO can cause long-lasting emotional and mental trauma. Or tell her some horror story about kids who strangle each other ("one time, on this message board..."), even when they didn't mean to. Or a kid who got caught in a venetian cord blind. Oh, trust me - I'm sure these stories are out there. She probably thinks she's doing her kids a favor, and you just have to plant that little seed of doubt, water it a bit...

The second example, I would call about. Cursing _around_ your kids is totally different from calling them an effing brat, and I'll bet there's a LOT more than cussing out the kids going on in that home. It's verbal abuse. What would you think if you saw a man screaming the same things at his wife, or heck, a stranger? Would you think, "oops, mind my own business, I'm sure there's nothing to see here." Or would it leave you with a dirty feeling that you could do something but chose not to?

I say, pay attention to that feeling. Despite what some people think, a call to CPS does not mean their children will be ripped from the home. It means it will be investigated. Perhaps counseling will be offered, or parenting classes, or financial assistance. Her children won't be taken for her cussing at them, but it might reveal deeper issues that she could use help with. Social workers can often help provide resources that parents don't know about.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Does CPS do anything about verbal abuse? I'd guess about 85% of the adults I know were verbally abused as kids. I seriously doubt that the authorities would give a rats' unless there were other major problems as well.

Even at that, though, I would want to see a pattern of verbal abuse before calling. Yeah, it's wrong to call kids names. Definitely. But I really don't see the point of going all lights and sirens on a stranger over one moment observed on the fly.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

But see, "do anything" doesn't necessarily mean "take kids away." They're probably going to visit or call and make sure that nothing worse is going down.

Yes, in my area, they offer counseling, resources, and other assistance. Verbal abuse is taken as seriously as physical abuse - there are ad campaigns against it, etc.

I'm just saying, I wish someone had called any one of the NUMEROUS times my father called me or my siblings names in public. That mom could probably use some help regarding better ways to deal with frustration, maybe there are money issues, who knows?

From http://www.helpguide.org/mental/chil....htm#emotional

Quote:

Emotional child abuse is any attitude, behavior, or failure to act that interferes with a child's mental health or social development. It can range from a simple verbal insult to an extreme form of punishment. Emotional abuse is almost always present when another form of abuse is found. *Surprisingly, emotional abuse can have more long-lasting negative psychiatric effects than either physical abuse or sexual abuse.*


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I don't know. Our whole culture is verbally abusive. Truly. You can't take a trip around town without hearing someone cussing someone out on their cell phone or putting down someone considered to be their inferior or talking about how sweet it was to see some catty guy rip a woman to shreds on TV. It doesn't make sense to me to single out some mom in a parking lot for "intervention" on this subject and I strongly suspect that if we criminalize something as widespread as verbal abuse, it's going to be harried working class moms who get the brunt of it, fair or not.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

And ffs don't do the "as a survivor" thing. I was called idiot like it was my legal name and hell yeah, I know it does harm. It's not a question of whether it's right or wrong: it's wrong. It's about how much "society" should be punishing individuals for being a part of a generally toxic culture.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Well, to each their own, I suppose. But if I saw a man calling his wife horrible names, I might call that in. And if I saw two guys calling each other names on the street, about to come to blows, I'd call then too. I don't like to see it, and I think mamas who are calling their children names out of a lack of other options, need help.

We can see a culture of violence around us, but we can also be instrumental in stopping it.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

What crime would a man yelling at his wife be charged with? Is there one? I honestly don't know of one, unless he was yelling an explicit death threat.


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
It's about how much "society" should be punishing individuals for being a part of a generally toxic culture.

That's assuming calling the CPS is to try and punish someone. I just don't see how offering "counseling, resources, and other assistance" is a punishment. Of course whether the CPS (or equivalent) actually offers that or thinks of themselves as parenting police depends on the area you live in. I personally have only good things to say about the CPS work I've witnessed in my life. Your mileage may vary.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.

There is a difference between swearing around your children and swearing AT them. IMO, It is really terrible to refer to your child as a f-ing brat.

However, as a mandated reporter, I wouldn't make a report on either situation. I'd pay close attention to the goings on at my neighbors house and depending on our relationship may try a friendly intervention. Not much you can do about the random person out and about.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
But see, "do anything" doesn't necessarily mean "take kids away." They're probably going to visit or call and make sure that nothing worse is going down.


Good point- Just because they are called doesn't mean kids are going to be removed.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I wouldn't call in either case. I run a fan at night to help me sleep. It might make me not hear the baby/ kids at night right away. Should you call CPS on me?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

NO WAY would I call CPS, NO WAY! I would only consider it if I felt a child's life was in immediate danger...then I'd call 911, not CPS.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I wouldn't call in those cases.

Although I think they fall under "poor parenting" I don't think they are enough to call. It may be my area, but I honestly don't think CPS has the resources here to go and offer counselling to every parent who swears at their kids or practices CIO, and the time spent investigating it can bog the system down.

I have called CPS for other things, and I do agree that it is fine to call on a suspicion (you don't have to have total proof) because it is their job to go from there.

I think there are ways to help a bit though. With your friend I agree that some gentle talking about it might be helpful.

I do see parents losing it at their kids some, and when I worked in retail I saw it a lot. As I've gotten older I've taken the approach to walk up to them and say something sympathetic like "wow, hard day?" Mostly that just diffuses it a bit (and it's amazing how much it does). If I have the chance to do it compassionately I also try to add in, "I thought it must be to hear you raising your voice" - not so much for the parent's benefit, but for the kids'.

It's important to be genuinely sympathetic though; any criticism and I always think it just probably gets taken out on the kids more later.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I'd just like to point out that some of the non-mainstream parenting practices that research *DOES* support (i.e. co-sleeping, EBF, or for that matter not vaxing) could easily be considered abuse by the mainstream population. Mainly for that reason, I try and give other people some wiggle room on what I would personally consider "bad parenting practices" because if I'm calling on them (anonymously or not) why would anyone else afford me the wiggle room to do what I do? I'm sure I'm not the only one scared to DEATH to have CPS called on me for practices that have actually been shown in research to be beneficial, but are not considered "normal". Of course, in the case that was mentioned previously where the house was disgusting/unsanitary (diaper piles, and all) that *might* move me to call, or if I see a beating in public, but.... I feel like I need to give other parents the space that *I* want to make my/their own decisions about the respective children.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

My 9 yr old ran outside screaming at me over me telling him he had to do his homework yesterday. Mind you, I had not raised my voice to him at all. He is very dramatic. Thankfully, our neighbors know us and him. My middle child, who has Autism, often screams or has meltdowns, even in the front yard. I suppose some people might think we are abusing our kids. However, it is because of people who seem to have an itchy dialing finger, that I have to keep documentation of my son's Autism, so if he meltdowns in public, the police won't take me in for suspected abuse. I once had a lady follow me out to my van, thinking I was beating him because he was having a bad temper fit.

I wouldn't call in either case. If the children are being beaten in front of you, call. But, even verbal abuse, as bad as it is, probably won't be taken seriously.

I also wonder how a new mom has time to keep the phone and number to CPS so handy.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

As a former mandated reporter, I would not report either of those situations. Are they crappy, borderline neglectful/verbally abusive parenting? Absolutely. Should these people have kids? Not in my opinion. But, what they're doing isn't illegal. And CPS wouldn't be able to do much about it.


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## aiea (Jan 27, 2007)

Thanks for the replies so far...

I know I'm speaking not from experience, but from naivete. I know I'm a bleeding heart, I need to grow some thick skin, etc. I also know I'm not normally a nosy person... I have always stuck to "do what you will as long as it doesn't harm someone else". But I do think this is harming someone else - i.e. the kids in question. Whether CPS agrees is up to them.

My original thoughts were:
-kid is being neglected/verbally abused
-"authorities" are set up to help
-I should link up the problem with the potential help source

I've considered just calling to get it off my chest, but don't know if even that's a good idea. The one thing I need to do is learn how to speak compassionately in the moment. I am anti-confrontational when it comes to strangers like this, so I feel awfully underhanded to call as though it's a reprimand/punishment. Can you tell I'm conflicted?!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I understand your feeling; I truly do. But CPS just isn't equipped to help in a situation like this.

Not much you can do about the woman cussing out her kids...you don't know her. But you could at least leave some literature with your neighbor, and talk gently with her about how YOU parent YOUR children.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Unless I saw clear physical abuse happen in front of me, I would not call CPS. So no, I wouldn't call in either of those situations in the OP.

Swearing is now criminal behavior? I'm quite sure my husband and I have sworn at each other before and we are definatly not in a domestic violence relationship. Swearing does not always equal some horrible abuse going on. Sometimes people just do swear when they're angry. What good would come for calling the cops on a couple swearing? (or as this thread makes it seem, only the _husband_ swearing at the wife.)

Theres a line somewhere between being concerned, and violating the rights of others.

As much as I might not like CIO and swearing at kids, I don't feel its my place (or anyones place) to tell others how to raise their children. As long as its not clear abuse, its really not my business. If I called CPS on every mother I know who used ear plugs to block out crying.. I'd be calling on nearly every mother I've ever known IRL and also on myself 9 years ago when I was a frustrated new mom who was *following my pediatricians advice!* Yes, I was told to wear eagplugs at night so my baby could CIO without me caving and picking her up.

Parents are told so many things. This is right. No this way is right. Oh no! Not that way. It can be so confusing sometimes to people. The rules are always changing too. (side to sleep, back to sleep, no pacifier, use a pacifier!) I know the way I parent many mainstream mothers don't agree with. I have several friends who are mainstream who raise an eyebrow at much of my life. They've never called CPS on me because its not their business. They know that my children are fed, clothed, loved, and not abused.. so all the other stuff is just that. Stuff they don't agree with. I feel that I need to afford the same courtesy to other moms that are not AP and simply following the advice of doctors, relatives, etc.. because I used to be that mom myself.

Advocating for children, and other AP topics of child raising in a positive way is more beneficial IMO than calling CPS on mothers we see who are not parenting the way we wish they were. CPS is a crap shoot. And dispite all the, "Oh they would never remove the kids, they'd only help the family"... are you willing to bet your childrens life on it? I know I wouldn't. It happens all too often.

Nope. I wouldn't call them. If it was an emergency, I'd call 911. They'd obviously call CPS, but I personally will never call them again. They are the *last* agency that any family needs in their life.


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

well, cio isn't a crime. So, unles they were shaking the kids to get them to sleep or driving around town leaving the kids unattended... there's no crime. Just bad parenting... otherwise known as mainstream parenting!







:

and swearing isn't a crime. That woman could have been having the most awful day of her life and swearing like that was her release so she didn't lash out at her children. I swear I had pregnancy induced turrettes syndrome when my son was a baby (high needs) and sometimes turned heads with my vent-swearing.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
NO WAY would I call CPS, NO WAY! I would only consider it if I felt a child's life was in immediate danger...then I'd call 911, not CPS.

Yes, I agree.

If it were anything else and I thought it was serious enough to get the parents in trouble, I might try to intervene personally.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
not nice. but legal.

there is no point in reporting any of this.

I agree


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I don't know. Our whole culture is verbally abusive. Truly. You can't take a trip around town without hearing someone cussing someone out on their cell phone or putting down someone considered to be their inferior or talking about how sweet it was to see some catty guy rip a woman to shreds on TV. It doesn't make sense to me to single out some mom in a parking lot for "intervention" on this subject and I strongly suspect that if we criminalize something as widespread as verbal abuse, it's going to be harried working class moms who get the brunt of it, fair or not.

I agree. Sad though it may be, I don't think encouraging governmental interference for this is warranted. There needs to be maintained a pretty high bar before allowing state intervention in the family and I don't think swearing at a kid or calling him names (horrible though that may be) is high enough.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I'd just like to point out that some of the non-mainstream parenting practices that research *DOES* support (i.e. co-sleeping, EBF, or for that matter not vaxing) could easily be considered abuse by the mainstream population. Mainly for that reason, I try and give other people some wiggle room on what I would personally consider "bad parenting practices" because if I'm calling on them (anonymously or not) why would anyone else afford me the wiggle room to do what I do? I'm sure I'm not the only one scared to DEATH to have CPS called on me for practices that have actually been shown in research to be beneficial, but are not considered "normal". Of course, in the case that was mentioned previously where the house was disgusting/unsanitary (diaper piles, and all) that *might* move me to call, or if I see a beating in public, but.... I feel like I need to give other parents the space that *I* want to make my/their own decisions about the respective children.









: As an HBACer, I gave a lot of thought to this in case (God forbid) something happened, which is why I'm generally against getting them involved because I know that many in the mainstream would point the "abuse" finger at me for attempting HBAC.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

I'm a mandated reporter and have been since the early 1980s. Honestly I have had to make very few reports and those were while working as part of an interdisciplinary team. Neither of the situations you described would be reportable.

I have only reported a friend once and it broke my heart and cost me her friendship and others to take sides, I didn't tell anyone because I am required to maintain confidentiality but she did and several people were not even interested in talking to me afterwards. She told me that her adolescent son was sexually abusing her three year old little girl and was not willing to seek any kind of counseling. In that situation I had to act within 24 hours and CPS took it very seriously. It was heartbreaking.

Before making a report make sure it is really something serious. Dirty kids, cussing, CIO, and other less than optimal parenting choices are not reportable. Sadly spanking and hitting kids is not reportable either unless there are deliberate injuries.

I myself have been concerned that I could be reported for CLW, co-sleeping and homeschooling. I am also very conservative when it comes to medical care for myself while pregnant and for our children. It is hard to disagree with a doctor knowing they could document it and involve CPS to CYA.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
I'm a mandated reporter and have been since the early 1980s. Honestly I have had to make very few reports and those were while working as part of an interdisciplinary team. Neither of the situations you described would be reportable.

I have only reported a friend once and it broke my heart and cost me her friendship and others to take sides, I didn't tell anyone because I am required to maintain confidentiality but she did and several people were not even interested in talking to me afterwards. She told me that her adolescent son was sexually abusing her three year old little girl and was not willing to seek any kind of counseling. In that situation I had to act within 24 hours and CPS took it very seriously. It was heartbreaking.

Before making a report make sure it is really something serious. Dirty kids, cussing, CIO, and other less than optimal parenting choices are not reportable. Sadly spanking and hitting kids is not reportable either unless there are deliberate injuries.

I myself have been concerned that I could be reported for CLW, co-sleeping and homeschooling. I am also very conservative when it comes to medical care for myself while pregnant and for our children. It is hard to disagree with a doctor knowing they could document it and involve CPS to CYA.











It's horrible, but you made the right choice. THAT is something that is reportable


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.









:

I've sworn around my kids on my worst days ~ similar to what was quoted in the OP ~ and I'd hate to have CPS called on me when all I needed was a hug and some time to just cry on someone's shoulder.....


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.

i think there is a difference in saying the f word around your child and saying get in the f-ing car you f-ing brat to your child!

If a husband told his wife she was and fing b*tch get in the fing car would that not be verbally abusive? I guess it is in my books, and no different for that poor child.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
I myself have been concerned that I could be reported for CLW, co-sleeping and homeschooling. I am also very conservative when it comes to medical care for myself while pregnant and for our children. It is hard to disagree with a doctor knowing they could document it and involve CPS to CYA.

See, I don't get this overriding MDC concern. Color me ignorant, but can people give me some news links where families were investigated and _had their kids taken away_ for AP choices. And I mean AP/NFL choices, not homeschooling and oh...keeping their kids in cages. And I don't mean hostile family members/neighbors reporting on each other - that happens all the time, no matter what the parenting choices are.

I know there was that mom who was cosleeping (naked) and still breastfeeding her six year old in the news a few years ago, but it was remarkable for its unusual nature, in many ways.

And if people are swearing _at_ their kids or partner - calling them "f-ers" then yes, I think some counseling and help would assist in preventing long-term issues. CPS in my area doesn't make parents go, and they don't offer it themselves, but there are many nonprofit agencies that provide free or low-cost parenting/relationship strategy classes.


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## maxsmum (Nov 29, 2006)

I've dealt alot with CPS, I don't think they are going to respond in either situation.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Juvysen* 
I'd just like to point out that some of the non-mainstream parenting practices that research *DOES* support (i.e. co-sleeping, EBF, or for that matter not vaxing) could easily be considered abuse by the mainstream population. Mainly for that reason, I try and give other people some wiggle room on what I would personally consider "bad parenting practices" because if I'm calling on them (anonymously or not) why would anyone else afford me the wiggle room to do what I do? I'm sure I'm not the only one scared to DEATH to have CPS called on me for practices that have actually been shown in research to be beneficial, but are not considered "normal". Of course, in the case that was mentioned previously where the house was disgusting/unsanitary (diaper piles, and all) that *might* move me to call, or if I see a beating in public, but.... I feel like I need to give other parents the space that *I* want to make my/their own decisions about the respective children.

This comes pretty close to my attitude.
Also, a bad home situation alone wouldn't be enough to cause me to call CPS. I'd have to also consider whether the child would be better off through anything CPS would do, including remove the child from his parents' home and place him in institutional care. As a PP pointed out, mainstream parenting is often pretty bad, but probably wouldn't be improved in most cases by CPS involvement. I'd hold out for the genuinely dangerous situations.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Canadianmommax3* 
i think there is a difference in saying the f word around your child and saying get in the f-ing car you f-ing brat to your child!

You're right. I DO think there is a difference. However I don't think CPS would be concerned with either one.

-Angela


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
You're right. I DO think there is a difference. However I don't think CPS would be concerned with either one.

-Angela

i agree


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
See, I don't get this overriding MDC concern. Color me ignorant, but can people give me some news links where families were investigated and _had their kids taken away_ for AP choices. And I mean AP/NFL choices, not homeschooling and oh...keeping their kids in cages. And I don't mean hostile family members/neighbors reporting on each other - that happens all the time, no matter what the parenting choices are.

I know there was that mom who was cosleeping (naked) and still breastfeeding her six year old in the news a few years ago, but it was remarkable for its unusual nature, in many ways.

I don't have a link but there was a case in the news a couple of years ago of a UCer who had the baby taken away JUST BECAUSE they had a UC. The agreed to move out of state and CPS allowed them to and take their child.

And the mom who was breastfeeding her 6 yr old was a member here for quite awhile and there was no naked sleeping. Just nursing. And yes. Her child was taken away for it.

-Angela


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I haven't read the whole thread but thought I would post my own experience with this kind of thing as it seems relevant...

My former next-door neighbor (with whom we share a wall) used to scream at her dd (2 yo







) often in the night or in the morning when she woke up too early. "You mother-f'er! F'ing go to sleep RIGHT NOW or you'll be sorry. Go to sleep you f'ing brat. Or I'll get the Scream Guy." (The Scream Guy...who knows what that was but apparently something used to frighten the poor kid into submission.)

I was greatly, greatly disturbed by this, and it was repetitive. So I did call CPS.

They said they do not come out for verbal abuse; they can't do anything - especially if the child is not of an age where they can talk clearly about what's happening in the home.

This is in San Diego - don't know what CPS is like elsewhere - but IMO the caseworkers have so many truly awful cases of abuse and neglect to deal with that verbal abuse, however severe, is just not going to be a priority. At the most they might come out to the house but if they see it is clean and there are no signs of physical abuse, they can't - and won't - do anything.

Depressing? Yes. Very.

As far as the CIO, I just read an column written by a wealthy woman about how she got her 4 children to sleep through the night. At precisely 6 weeks of age she shut them in their room and did extinction CIO. For as long as it took. With the first child, that meant that her 6-week-old cried ALL NIGHT LONG (can you even IMAGINE a tiny, tiny baby like that crying for 8 hours??) and then 3 hours the next night and 45 minutes the night after that...and then from there on out the kid went to sleep right at 7:30. She admitted to being so smugly proud of her "success" that she used the exact same method on each of her subsequent children.

So here we have someone doing something much, much, much worse than what you describe in situation #1, and not only does she not fear CPS, she feels proud of what she has done - proud enough to write a newspaper column about it. And presumably no one took her kids away or even blinked twice at her column.

It's despicably sad, but there isn't really much you can do. As someone said upthread, "CIO is normal". (Although personally, had I known the woman who wrote the column at the time when she was letting a newborn CIO, you bet I would have called CPS, and with a newborn, they might actually have taken an interest in the situation. But they certainly aren't going to care that a 1-yo or a 2.5-yo are left to cry.)


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I am such a bleeding heart like the OP. I just wish I could fix it every time I see a child being mis-treated.
I have seen so many horrible things from strangers...there is a discount thrift store that I go to a lot. I have seen it all there. I have seen obvious meth addicts pushing strollers around with filthy infants in them. How does an infant get dirty head to toe?
I have seen all sorts of verbal and physical abuse go down there...people just leave their carts in the aisles with babies in them and go wandering around the store! I have seen employees stand there by an abandoned cart containing a young child or baby for 5 minutes or more, shouting all the time "Who's child is this?" Before some idiot slowly meanders over and claims the cart/child!!!!







:

I have joked many times that CPS should just set up a table in the corner of that store because of the stuff I have seen go down.
But I have realized through this experience that there isn't much that you can do in these kinds of situations, especially when the parent is a stranger.
I have actually been tempted to follow people home sometimes so that I could report them, and I swear it was only when I witnessed blatant physical abuse, but I never have. I really don't feel like anything would come of it, and CPS is really busy here in Portland.

When it is a friend I strongly agree with the previous poster: Plant seeds of doubt and water them. Make it seem totally off hand, like "OMG! Guess what I read the other day!" Or offer alternative suggestions "You know what worked for us..." but be really non confrontational.
I have friends and acquaintances that I have done this with. It wont fix everything, but you can usually help inspire some change, which is better than nothing. And you will feel more like a friend than you will calling CPS.

Good for you, though, for caring so much about these other children's well being so much. I am sure you are a fantastic mom to your babe!


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
And the mom who was breastfeeding her 6 yr old was a member here for quite awhile and there was no naked sleeping. Just nursing. And yes. Her child was taken away for it.

-Angela

I don't see a problem with sleeping in the nude, co-sleeping in the nude or nudity in general. So even if there was naked sleeping where is the abuse in that? I bet you lots of child perps wear pajamas to bed. Sleeping nude does not lead to sexual abuse.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
I don't see a problem with sleeping in the nude, co-sleeping in the nude or nudity in general. So even if there was naked sleeping where is the abuse in that? I bet you lots of child perps wear pajamas to bed. Sleeping nude does not lead to sexual abuse.

I agree. But in the case I'm thinking of she DID cosleep but they wore clothes. The child was taken (and kept for MONTHS) simply because she was still nursing him.

-Angela


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
See, I don't get this overriding MDC concern. Color me ignorant, but can people give me some news links where families were investigated and _had their kids taken away_ for AP choices. And I mean AP/NFL choices, not homeschooling and oh...keeping their kids in cages. And I don't mean hostile family members/neighbors reporting on each other - that happens all the time, no matter what the parenting choices are.


http://www.lalecheleague.org/ba/Feb01.html

(Dated, but it's a good summary to that point.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *edamommy* 
and swearing isn't a crime. That woman could have been having the most awful day of her life and swearing like that was her release so she didn't lash out at her children. I swear I had pregnancy induced turrettes syndrome when my son was a baby (high needs) and sometimes turned heads with my vent-swearing.

I was not very nice to ds1 sometimes when he was little. Looking back, I cringe. There were a lot of reasons and a lot of excuses and I got it all sorted out. But, the last bloody thing my family or I needed was to have some stranger coming into our home and butting in with their "help". Gah - I can't even get through a single visit from a Public Health Nurse without wanting to scream...having regularly scheduled "assistance" from someone because a stranger heard me blow up at ds1 in public would have just cut into my already over-stretched time, and caused me even _more_ stress.

I swore at him a few times, and I really wish I hadn't...but I did. I didn't need anybody getting involved and trying to tell me how to fix it - I figured that out myself. When I blew up at him in public, it was from stress...and it didn't mean that all these unnamed, horrible things were happening to him behind closed doors (an assertion I see here quite regularly). Actually, once I actually got the groceries home and the stress of the errand was over, things settled back down again. If anybody had involved CPS in my life at that time, I'm about 95% sure I'd have killed myself...anybody think that would have helped my son? Short of a flat-out beating, you really can't tell much about a stranger's parenting based on one incident in public. It could be part of a pattern...and it could be a total aberration.

The CIO thing makes me want to vomit. But, I don't think it's actually abuse by modern, mainstream standards.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I agree. But in the case I'm thinking of she DID cosleep but they wore clothes. The child was taken (and kept for MONTHS) simply because she was still nursing him.

-Angela

Totally wrong to have that happen. That is why I worry about even admitting in a public forum like this that I CLW.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
See, I don't get this overriding MDC concern. Color me ignorant, but can people give me some news links where families were investigated and _had their kids taken away_ for AP choices.

You know...I don't want my kids taken away. But, I don't want a bunch of state-sanctioned strangers butting into my life and inspecting my home, either. Even if kids aren't taken, the investigation is not without a lot of stress and an impact on the family under investigation. I don't like having stranger in my home - and strangers who are there _precisely_ for the purpose of putting me and my parenting under the microscope...YUCK!

My sister got a call about 10 years ago, when my escape artist nephew (then 2) climbed up on a chair, and slipped the latch while she was in the kitchen doing dishes. He'd been napping, and she was checking on him. Anyway, he got out in the street, and some woman chased him back in, got one look at my sister's tattoos and called CPS. She only had one visit, as they found the neglect charge from the woman to be groundless. But, I don't want people in _my home_ rifling through my CDs and videos looking for evidence that I'm some kind of deviant.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
You know...I don't want my kids taken away. But, I don't want a bunch of state-sanctioned strangers butting into my life and inspecting my home, either. Even if kids aren't taken, the investigation is not without a lot of stress and an impact on the family under investigation. I don't like having stranger in my home - and strangers who are there _precisely_ for the purpose of putting me and my parenting under the microscope...YUCK!

My sister got a call about 10 years ago, when my escape artist nephew (then 2) climbed up on a chair, and slipped the latch while she was in the kitchen doing dishes. He'd been napping, and she was checking on him. Anyway, he got out in the street, and some woman chased him back in, got one look at my sister's tattoos and called CPS. She only had one visit, as they found the neglect charge from the woman to be groundless. But, I don't want people in _my home_ rifling through my CDs and videos looking for evidence that I'm some kind of deviant.









: And I don't want to sic the state on anyone else either without good reason. It's not right and a waste of resources.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka* 







: And I don't want to sic the state on anyone else either without good reason. It's not right *and a waste of resources*.

Absolutely. I've never heard of a CPS department that isn't underfunded and understaffed...so wasting their resources on someone who swore at their kid, when they're needed to deal with negectful drug addicts, pedophiles and child beaters makes no sense to me.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I wouldnt call about either one


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## aiea (Jan 27, 2007)

This is really putting things into perspective for me, which is exactly what I wanted, sad as the perspective is.

I've been thinking about this all day...

I grew up in a home with a lot of anger. Inside the house my parents gave us kids (and each other) the brunt of all that rage both physically & verbally. Outside the house, we were model citizens. Though my mom actually had CPS called once for my sister, b/c Mom had slapped her across the face in the car one day (nothing happened). I removed myself as quickly as possible, got my stuff together, and got my life together.

Ten years later, I am peaceful to the extreme (which I imagine many mamas on this board are). I do not allow my mom alone with my babe, and I do not have any relationship with my father. I shield myself from major sources of rage (no TV, no news), and I work on the anger I do have. But when I see this kind of stuff, it melts me. I guess it makes me want to say something because it truly hits home.

I simply didn't know that it would likely go nowhere if reported. Now I guess I know. It still makes me want to DO something, though. I don't mean necessarily to report them, but to help such struggling moms. I am going to look for volunteer stuff along these lines... I have to redirect the distress I feel for these kids.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I wouldn't assume it would go nowhere. I see that most people here say either 1) it will do nothing, so don't bother or 2) omigod! her kids will be taken from their mother and will be all your fault!

There is grey. Why not call and ask what is typically done if you saw x, y, z. Ask if there are community resources available for help. Maybe you could get some business cards of free social service agencies that you could hand to a mom or stick under her windshield.


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

Just bad parenting... otherwise known as mainstream parenting!
For the record I have friends who parent in a fairly mainstream way who I think are good parents and friends who are about as AP as I consider myself to be who are absolute trainwrecks as parents. It's really not as simple, ime, as mainstream = bad and AP = good.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I don't have a link but there was a case in the news a couple of years ago of a UCer who had the baby taken away JUST BECAUSE they had a UC. The agreed to move out of state and CPS allowed them to and take their child.

And the mom who was breastfeeding her 6 yr old was a member here for quite awhile and there was no naked sleeping. Just nursing. And yes. Her child was taken away for it.

-Angela


Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
http://www.lalecheleague.org/ba/Feb01.html

(Dated, but it's a good summary to that point.)

There are three cases on there. In the WHOLE UNITED STATES. One of which there was "more" going on than first stated (the NY one); one of which was the cosleeping naked, breastfeeding thing, where the boy allegedly told his babysitter that he wanted to stop but his mom insisted on BFing him. The boy was removed for about six months and then returned, I think the mom had to agree to sleep with clothes on and go along with what her son wanted regarding BFing. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...7/ai_n13881804

But in any case, are three cases really something to get as paranoid as people do get on here? If there's a report, they have to investigate, but that probably just means making sure everyone's safe and healthy. I know I would be devastated if my kids were taken from me, but I'm also not going to put them in harm's way through drug abuse, physical abuse, starvation, or sexual abuse. There are really moms and dads who do this! It sometimes seems like nobody here has actually witnessed a family with these issues, and so poo-poo the whole concept of CPS and its purpose.

I've dealt with the foster and CPS system, and it's so not that big of a deal. Most CPS workers are parents too and know we're not all perfect. They went into this job because they want to make sure kids aren't beaten and killed and raped, not to steal kids and cackle. Oh, and make money - how does that one go? They take kids in order to boost their salaries? Yes, all those rich social workers.

Their job is to make sure kids are safe, not whether or not we're uncomfortable. Maybe safe is getting a parent some mental health help. Maybe safe is helping someone get outpatient drug counselling. Maybe a local agency to help deliver food if there isn't enough. Many CPS agencies provide referrals to great parenting classes that help parents learn new coping mechanisms so they're NOT screaming names at their kids, or hitting them. Or wanting to kill themselves. Or then again, maybe it's easy enough to see they're safe and the allegations are unfounded, and the case is closed.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I'm definitely not in the "paranoid about CPS" club. But honestly, if I was having depression issues as a parent, they're about the last place I'd turn for help. I got a heavy enough dose of shame and attempts at controlling me from "the system" as a childless 20-year-old with depression. I shudder to think what they would do "for the good of your child."

Seems like Storm Bride found a way through. I agree that we should help parents who are struggling, but I don't think calling in the authorities is "help" per se.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
There are three cases on there. In the WHOLE UNITED STATES. ..., maybe it's easy enough to see they're safe and the allegations are unfounded, and the case is closed.

Those are just the three cases we know of that are well documented by the media. Many more parents face these issues especially when divorcing and visits are ordered that violate the nursing relationship.

There is still an permanent record even if allegations are unfounded. Should there be future allegations then they will be reconsidered.

As far as what I do when I witness things in public I try to say something helpful to the parent. Most recently I was waiting at the airport and there was a lady sitting beside me who kept hitting her two year old, saying "shut up and sit down." I was feeling sick but kept my cool and politely started to ask her about him, his age, was he tired etc. She quit hitting him and started to explain about her day and how he kept running for the double doors to go outside and how scared she was he was going to get away from her. She had missed her ride and was waiting for another. So at least for a moment I was able to give her some support and the child was not being smacked. Not perfect but at least I did something and I hope that the rest of their day went better.


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## Antigone (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
For the record I have friends who parent in a fairly mainstream way who I think are good parents and friends who are about as AP as I consider myself to be who are absolute trainwrecks as parents. It's really not as simple, ime, as mainstream = bad and AP = good.











What Shakti said. I've got mainstream friends who are fabulous parents, and one co-sleeping, breastfeeding, anti-circ, anti-vax, organic-food-eating vegan friend w/2 kids who I wouldn't trust to feed my cats.

People vary too much to make snap judgments either way.

Antigone


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I assure you there are more than 3 cases. I know many individuals with cases similar.

-Angela


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
I'm definitely not in the "paranoid about CPS" club. But honestly, if I was having depression issues as a parent, they're about the last place I'd turn for help. I got a heavy enough dose of shame and attempts at controlling me from "the system" as a childless 20-year-old with depression. I shudder to think what they would do "for the good of your child."

Seems like Storm Bride found a way through. I agree that we should help parents who are struggling, but I don't think calling in the authorities is "help" per se.

But what about parents who don't want help, who insist they don't need help, and who think that the beatings/name callings are perfectly fine, you don't need to stick your nosy nose into their business?

I give anyone that - if there's another way through, then that's great. Giving the names of local social services, talking with a parent, distracting them, etc. But so many times when you do try this, they tell you to MYOB and those kids are theirs, not yours, so they can do as they see fit. I could share some stories, if that would help. We've had kids show up at the library, crying, in their pajamas, because they're so afraid of mom who was throwing stuff at them. We called the police. The mom shows up and gets mad at us for interfering in her life and calling the police. We've had young children left at the library past closing time, nobody answering the phone at home, we call the police to keep the kids, the parents are all mad because we should've just waited for...hours? What they are, is embarrassed and mad that they got caught doing something they KNEW was wrong. And if they aren't willing to change of their own volition, I don't see anything wrong with CPS helping them along a little.

Most of those CPS-is-Scary sites have long articles on how it's just fine to spank and discipline your kids as you wish, cos the Bible told them so. And that's not even counting the people who look away or don't want to get involved.

People would get more up in arms and DO something if they saw a puppy being called names, hit, or threatened with violence.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I assure you there are more than 3 cases. I know many individuals with cases similar.

-Angela

Where the children were removed for AP reasons only (not ugly divorces and MILs) by CPS and put into foster care? That which everyone is so worried about on here? Do you have some links?


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

FSM, I'd love to know where you live that CPS is "no big deal." Seriously. The invasion of privacy, the scrutiny, the lies against you, the twisting, the digging, the threats, the broken promises, the accusations without evidence.... I would never *EVER* say CPS wasn't a big deal. Just their involvement alone can break families, even if the child is never taken away.
Its been *FOUR years* and I still have not recovered from my experience. I have clinical Post Traumatic Stress Disorder because of it.

It _clearly_ can be a big deal.

And FWIW, the state receives more Federal funding for every child they adopt out from foster care. Look it up, research it, do the math. Its a big financial gain the more children they adopt out. Keeping families together only drains money and resources. Its not some big "OMGOSH! The evil evil state is out to get us!!" mentality. Its just simply fact. The system as a whole is messed up beyond belief. Helping children is no longer the main agenda. There are good CPS workers and there are bad ones. Like I said, its a crap shoot. One I'm not personally willing to risk with my family or anyone elses.

*And, children are almost never removed for _only_ being AP, or _only_ hitting, or _only_ anything. Once they are in your home they will dig until they find an arsenal of things against you. (If they can't find anything, rest assured they'll make something up.) This holds true especially for lower income families. Yes, they are targeted by CPS more. So are people who are of races other than white. The system is not a carefully calculated and safe system. Its not without fault and many errors. Its not even close to perfect. In fact, its downright unacceptable. And when it comes to our children, I'm not willing to settle for that.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Don't you think it is devastating just to have someone come into your house? The worst is to have the kids removed but it can seriously undermine your confidence as a parent that the government would knock on your door.

I do know people, educated professionals, extremely nuturing parents, who do worry that what if they came and there aren't enough beds in the house or what if they find out I am still nursing or that we are vegan. I do have a friend who was investigated for feeding her well nourished healthy children a vegan diet. If she had been down at Mc. Ds no one would have bothered to show up.

We ourselves have been afraid of refusing treatment in the hospital for fear that CPS would be called. Our last daughter we caved into formula even though we knew it was wrong. They said her blood sugar was low and my immediate response was let me nurse. Their protocol was that formula had to be given until levels were stable. In the end we gave in because the most important thing was getting her discharged home. We took the formula with us and nodded politely. We got home and nursed and of course all was fine.

I don't think it is an unrealistic fear at all that we worry about how our parenting choices might be misconstrued by others.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I hear you on the fear, but I think it's largely unfounded. Things might be investigated, but lots of things are investigated and found to be completely untrue or without merit. It doesn't mean you'd be found guilty of a vegan lifestyle, unless you're feeding your kids only apple juice or something.

It's uncomfortable. It's not meant to be comfortable. It's some serious stuff. But it doesn't mean the end of the world, either. I'd rather a few innocent people be investigated (and found innocent, as usual), than have a world without CPS and have children beaten, starved, and raped. Which happens too often anyways in the name of family reunification or lack of evidence.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
Don't you think it is devastating just to have someone come into your house? The worst is to have the kids removed but it can seriously undermine your confidence as a parent that the government would knock on your door.



Its not fun to question everything you do. To wonder all day if someone is watching you and waiting until you raise your voice just a bit too much, or heaven forbid use a swear word. To vacuum your house 10 times a day and never let anyone over unannounced because you're worried your home isn't "clean" enough..You don't ever quite get over the judgmental accusations no matter how innocent you are. They stay with you and repeat over and over in your head..

Unless you've had a corrupt social worker, or had a child removed... you just really have no idea the amount of damage it can do to a family.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Ok, taking a step back here - those who are against the whole idea of CPS - what would you suggest in its place? What would be your dream world regarding protecting children from predators, meth users, and generally abusive parents look like, while trying to assist the family unit?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

your first scenario is what DH's aunt was *told* by her pediatrician to do. Admittedly, years ago, but that kind of advice was out there. She talks about going to the far corner of the yard and crying while listening to her baby cry because she "wasnt' supposed to eat for another two hours and it was naptime."

Most CIO advocates don't recommend anything quite that harsh anymore, but I'm sure that there are plenty of docs raised with that attitude still practicing, and that advice is still being handed out. I think CPS would do nothing - CIO is not even on their radar, and with the "who told on me" fallout you might lose a chance to do some more gentle educating


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Where the children were removed for AP reasons only (not ugly divorces and MILs) by CPS and put into foster care? That which everyone is so worried about on here? Do you have some links?

The children were removed in a number of them. I don't have links because they are individuals. They didn't get media coverage.

-Angela


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Ok, taking a step back here - those who are against the whole idea of CPS - what would you suggest in its place? What would be your dream world regarding protecting children from predators, meth users, and generally abusive parents look like, while trying to assist the family unit?

Totally not against CPS. Just against frivolous complaints. That was the original question. Not that I think it is OK by any stretch of the imagination to curse at children or CIO.

OP was asking when should we call and if not call then what can we do to help in the situation.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I wouldn't call CPS in either case, although I do feel for those poor children. I just don't know if taking them from their parents would put them in a better situation. Plus, I don't see where CPS would step in for CIO or swearing.

While I have never let a child CIO, I freqently sit/sat in my yard or porch while the chidren were inside. I've also gardened. Sometimes the children weren't even sleeping.







:

What's so bad about that?


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

To the OP: I'm as bleeding heart as they come, and I wouldn't report this, for the same reasons Storm Bride gave. ITA with everything she's written here.

Re: fear of CPS, stories of CPS abuse aren't for the most part in the media, and I find it completely obnoxious that someone would pooh-pooh my concern as being "paranoia" because I can't prove to _them_ that these abuses have occurred, and therefore I must be, what, making it up? Whatever. I have first-hand accounts from a CPS social worker that leave no doubt in my mind about it. But in fact, I don't need to prove anything to anyone to justify my concern about an agency that has an unreasonable amount of power with insufficient checks to prevent abuse of that power occurring. The existence of it alone, partnered with human fallibility and the strong emotional biases of so many people against AP/NFL, would make it reasonable for me to be concerned, _even if I personally knew of no evidence of CPS abuse._


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.

Yeah...if cussing around your kids is grounds for being reported for child abuse, I'm totally in BIG TIME trouble.


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## cjanelles (Oct 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aiea* 

My original thoughts were:
-kid is being neglected/verbally abused
-"authorities" are set up to help
-I should link up the problem with the potential help source


Couple of things...first of all, I think you are probably VERY sensitive parenting issues right now, especially if you're doing everything you can do to be a good and loving parent.

Second of all, it is all wonderful to believe that the "authorities" are set up to help children in need and to "help" families, but the bottom line is that the CPS system in our country is so overburdened that they're not there to help simply maladjusted families. It would be GREAT if CPS could step into every household where parents could use a few (or a million) parenting classes and see to it that all children were raised by loving parents who believed and tried to adhere to many of the ideals here at the MDC. But that is not only unrealistic, but also perfectly impossible to mandate.

Third of all, what appears as neglect to you (as a vigilant, highly sensitive parent) is not likely to be defined as neglect by any CPS agency. Cussing around kids or at kids, not illegal. Not even neglectful. Mean spirited, yes. Damaging--only in ways the government isn't willing to commit to paper yet.

I sympathize with your pain. I'm a person who has stepped between a parent (and grandparent, too) and child when I witnessed physical abuse happening. I have called the cops on a man beating his pre-schooler with an air hose in the parking lot of a gas station. I have confronted a grandmother beating her grandson with her flipflop in front of my son's school. I totally understand wanting to protect the children.

But, I have no faith that CPS is going to do anything in either of the situations you've described, nor am I certain I believe they should. And honestly, the "system" has done it's own fair share of damage to kids, so I'd think long and hard before I introduced them to someone's family.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

As a mother who has had a visit from CPS, your thread title got my attention. It's hard to know what to do, I'm sure. You only want to help.

But one thing I can tell you with authority, if you call, it cannot be undone. If your instincts are wrong; if the situation is not what it seems; if there is some reason you don't understand to explain the crying babies or the parents in the yard or the mother cussing in anger . . . it's too late once the call has been made. And it could result in a family being torn apart.

Think long and hard before doing something that could permanently harm a family that might just be going through a rough patch.


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## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
For the record I have friends who parent in a fairly mainstream way who I think are good parents and friends who are about as AP as I consider myself to be who are absolute trainwrecks as parents. It's really not as simple, ime, as mainstream = bad and AP = good.

I agree. To say that mainstream parenting equals bad parenting is so completely ignorant.


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## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

1st one is none of your business.
2nd one is none of your business.


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## aiea (Jan 27, 2007)

Hi again,

I looked up standards of what constitutes abuse, and like a PP said, only the withdrawal of appropriate supervision (i.e. purposefully not hearing) might possibly be considered abuse.

Cjanelles, you have summed up how I feel in your first paragraph or so. Thank you. I know I am hyper-sensitive to this kind of stuff, and it's so new to me to be this way. I mean I've always been "the sensitive one", but had frankly no clue what kind of emotional ride parenting was til now (and I'm still in intro classes so to speak!). Then to see abusive things done to others... the emotional sirens just start to go off and I'm blinded.

I do wonder what CPS is exactly, in my neck of the woods. Powerful or helpful, punishment or assistance... I don't know. I do know it's important to start educating myself. I would rather be painfully aware than assuming and ignorant.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
FSM, I'd love to know where you live that CPS is "no big deal." Seriously. The invasion of privacy, the scrutiny, the lies against you, the twisting, the digging, the threats, the broken promises, the accusations without evidence.... I would never *EVER* say CPS wasn't a big deal. Just their involvement alone can break families, even if the child is never taken away.
Its been *FOUR years* and I still have not recovered from my experience. I have clinical Post Traumatic Stress Disorder because of it.

It _clearly_ can be a big deal.












I hear you! After our experience of being investigated for child abuse I was devastated. The complaint was based on our AP lifestyle, and was made by our ubermainstream neighbor. She was frustrated that she couldn't get me to parent the way she parented . . . the right way . . . and she couldn't talk any sense into me. The thought that we co-slept was perverted to her and the fact that I breastfed my one-year-old was clearly leading to his death by malnourishment.

Now, it is true that our boy is tiny, now and even more so when the call was made three years ago. I'm 5'7" and weigh 116 pounds, so I'm probably not likely to have a big bruiser of a child. Also, he had become sick only a month after starting solids and developed "a food aversion", so he was indeed skinny as he hit his first birthday.

So what if the call, coupled with the fact that he was visibly skinny, did appear to the CPS worker that he was being malnourished? I asked her what the worst case scenario was and she did admit foster care. I seriously doubt parenting lessons were the goal of my neighbor, or a possible outcome of the call.


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## KentuckyDoulaMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Nature said:


> FSM, I'd love to know where you live that CPS is "no big deal." Seriously. The invasion of privacy, the scrutiny, the lies against you, the twisting, the digging, the threats, the broken promises, the accusations without evidence.... I would never *EVER* say CPS wasn't a big deal. Just their involvement alone can break families, even if the child is never taken away.
> Its been *FOUR years* and I still have not recovered from my experience. I have clinical Post Traumatic Stress Disorder because of it.
> 
> It _clearly_ can be a big deal.
> ...


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

with the first case, if the parents are outside, how do they know if a child fell out of the crib or fell and hit his/her head or if the cries are because they're hurt or just cio, that's sound like inadequate supervision to me, I don't think cps is the answer but something should be done, if they' can't hear the kids, isn't that the same as not being there at all??


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KentuckyDoulaMama* 
Yep, same thing here. 6 years later I still have PTSD - everytime there is a stange car in the driveway, everytime there is a knock at the door.











Well I hope in 6 years you've at least conquered the fear of letting a layer of dust settle on your furniture, or more than 5 dishes accumulate in your sink. _Oh my God! What if they come NOW? Just look at the toilet!_


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Both are most certainly neglect. And the parents should have to answer for what they are doing. BUT, if you call CPS, nothing will be done. I'd just have said something to the parents. Maybe not my place, but someone needs to speak up for those kids.


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## mom2talus (Mar 23, 2007)

This really worries me that people are out there looking to call for things like this. What do you think is going to happen? CPS is going to give them friendly parenting tips that will make them come around to your point of view? They will be grateful that you made the call? Life will get better for the kids?

I'm pretty sure there is no chance of any of these things happening.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
And you know, frankly it annoys me to think that someone is sitting there with her finger on the phone dial because someone is swearing around kids. Honest to pete, the Victorians have died out already.









I get my drama from reality tv, I don't need to manufacture it for my friends & neighbors.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Right, right. So we can all keep saying that CPS is the big nasty and therefore, we can feel good about turning blind eye to abusive situations? I guess nobody has any better ideas? I'm serious. If people have a great alternative or other things they'd do if they see someone calling their kids effing brats, get in the effing car? What if they said they were gonna get a belting/beating when they got home? Would that still not warrant a call?

Heffern, I am sorry you had a mean neighbor, they're usually the sort to report (along with family members) maliciously. But what ended up happening with CPS? Did they take your child away? Or did they say the allegations were unfounded and drop it? If someone makes allegations of neglect, they have to look into it - what if you _weren't_ you, and you were a mom who was passed out on meth in the bedroom and didn't feed your kids all day? Does anyone acknowledge that this happens _every day_ in America?

Kentucky, I couldn't find your story.The only thing that came up with a search of your username and cps on google is something about how you wish your husband would've called CPS on his ex for your DSS for neglect. So I guess you're not totally against CPS. Is that what you were referring to?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
What if they said they were gonna get a belting/beating when they got home? Would that still not warrant a call?

I'm in Texas. You'd be laughed at if you called CPS over someone who said they were going to beat their kids.









It's expected.

Heck, schools can still paddle here. No one would blink at dad with a belt.

-Angela


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I have called cps several times in the past for children being beaten (not spanked, _beaten_) in public, and once for a baby riding unrestrained in the bed of a pickup truck on the state highway. I would not report for the situations in the op because, unfortunately, those actions are not illegal. I absolutely think they _should_ be illegal, but they are not, so there's nothing to report. I would call cps if I thought _the child_ (not "the family," because I don't give a crap about inconveniencing an abuser) would be better off with governmental intervention in his life. I don't have a high opinion of governmental "services," so I would have to decide that whatever he was going through at the hands of his family was worse than whatever the state would do to him.


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
I don't see a problem with sleeping in the nude, co-sleeping in the nude or nudity in general. So even if there was naked sleeping where is the abuse in that? I bet you lots of child perps wear pajamas to bed. Sleeping nude does not lead to sexual abuse.

I disagree.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Which part are you disagreeing with?


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
I wouldn't assume it would go nowhere. I see that most people here say either 1) it will do nothing, so don't bother or 2) omigod! her kids will be taken from their mother and will be all your fault!

There is grey. Why not call and ask what is typically done if you saw x, y, z. Ask if there are community resources available for help. Maybe you could get some business cards of free social service agencies that you could hand to a mom or stick under her windshield.

Sometimes our intuition signals alarm bells in our mind for a reason. Those are great suggestions. IMO much better than throwing up your hands believing "oh well, that's just how society is today" and "it won't matter anyway" and then turning a blind eye.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

CPS is not designed to deal with shades of gray or funded to deal with them either.

The purpose of CPS is to deal with situations where kids are in danger from abuse and neglect.

Abuse is typically defined as mental, emotional, physical, or sexual _injury_.

Neglect is defined as the failure to provide a child with food, clothing, shelter or medical care and/or leaving a child in a situation where the child is at _real and/or immediate_ risk of harm.

Neither of the situations described above sounds like it meets those standards.

Hell, if I listened to the encouragement given here to report everything I found to be unpleasant or sad to the authorities, that's all I would do all day. Including things I read about here sometimes.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
CPS is not designed to deal with shades of gray or funded to deal with them either.

The purpose of CPS is to deal with situations where kids are in danger from abuse and neglect.

This is definitely the case where I am (Toronto).


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
For the record I have friends who parent in a fairly mainstream way who I think are good parents and friends who are about as AP as I consider myself to be who are absolute trainwrecks as parents. It's really not as simple, ime, as mainstream = bad and AP = good.

Yes, yes, yes. CIO as described by the OP is not good parenting IMO and that is an accepted method among some mainstream parents but that's just one example.

I've had the same experiences. I know some very gentle, loving "mainstream' parents and I also know "AP" parents who are not good parents.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
T
As far as what I do when I witness things in public I try to say something helpful to the parent. Most recently I was waiting at the airport and there was a lady sitting beside me who kept hitting her two year old, saying "shut up and sit down." I was feeling sick but kept my cool and politely started to ask her about him, his age, was he tired etc. She quit hitting him and started to explain about her day and how he kept running for the double doors to go outside and how scared she was he was going to get away from her. She had missed her ride and was waiting for another. So at least for a moment I was able to give her some support and the child was not being smacked. Not perfect but at least I did something and I hope that the rest of their day went better.

You did a very good thing


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I was not very nice to ds1 sometimes when he was little. Looking back, I cringe. There were a lot of reasons and a lot of excuses and I got it all sorted out. But, the last bloody thing my family or I needed was to have some stranger coming into our home and butting in with their "help".

snip

I swore at him a few times, and I really wish I hadn't...but I did. I didn't need anybody getting involved and trying to tell me how to fix it - I figured that out myself. When I blew up at him in public, it was from stress...and it didn't mean that all these unnamed, horrible things were happening to him behind closed doors (an assertion I see here quite regularly). Actually, once I actually got the groceries home and the stress of the errand was over, things settled back down again. If anybody had involved CPS in my life at that time, I'm about 95% sure I'd have killed myself...anybody think that would have helped my son? Short of a flat-out beating, you really can't tell much about a stranger's parenting based on one incident in public. It could be part of a pattern...and it could be a total aberration.











I went through some rough times too. I've BTDT. Just like what you wrote.
I did have a visit from CPS. (Because my house was messy-I had been trying to declutter and there were many piles). It ended up being fine BUT it was very difficult.

I was also reported another time because my 4 yo wasn't toilet trained. In that case it was treated as a frivolous call. Even frivolous calls can be hurtful though if you're the recipient.

My parenting and housekeeping have now improved greatly. I no longer have the anger problems I did and I have learned to clean my house. Oh yeah, and the kid in question is potty trained :nana:


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## Shakti A. (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:

Yes, yes, yes. CIO as described by the OP is not good parenting IMO and that is an accepted method among some mainstream parents but that's just one example.
Perhaps. The parents I know who've used CIO methods have not done anything as extreme as use earplugs and leave the building, though. Perhaps it's where I am or something, but the harshest I've seen is by-the-book Ferber, which is very, very different from what in the OP. I guess I mean that I think the extreme of CIO that's in the OP is as far outside the mainstream as I see it as the family bed is, albeit at the opposite end.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eloquence* 
I disagree.

So, you think nudity in a household always leads to sexual abuse?

odd....

-Angela


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Ok, taking a step back here - those who are against the whole idea of CPS - what would you suggest in its place? What would be your dream world regarding protecting children from predators, meth users, and generally abusive parents look like, while trying to assist the family unit?

Since I am one of those who said I would pretty much never report a parent to CPS . . .

I think many issues that typically become abuse/neglect situations can be remedied with support for the parents. As an individual, I would offer help cleaning, babysitting, etc to a mom or dad who seemed in need of the help -- a parent who is overly stressed and lashing out at her kids isn't necessarily a bad parent or bad person, she just needs some relief. Befriending someone in a situation like this is apt to do way more good than yanking her kids and putting her through hell to *maybe* get them back. So ideally, I'd like to see more support in the community for parents who are struggling -- more support and less condemnation.

I think the state has it's place in dealing with kids who are TRULY abused, though I think far more effort needs to be made to ensure that kids who cannot remain with their parents are placed with relatives. I also think federal adoption bonuses are complete and utter bull and need to be done away with; they completely contradict any plans for reunification the state SHOULD have.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Heffern, I am sorry you had a mean neighbor, they're usually the sort to report (along with family members) maliciously.

It wasn't so much that she was mean. She was just a control freak who truly thought her way was right so my way must be wrong. Like the OP, she felt she couldn't rest knowing that this kind of bad parenting was going on right under her nose.

Quote:


But what ended up happening with CPS?
The case worker questioned me, my husband and our pediatrician. The ped was able to assure her that we were not malnourishing him, and that we are in fact very good parents. The case worker then went on to tell us that she also breastfed her children for longer than a year.







However, even once she was confident that DS was okay, she was still obliged to check our cabinets and fridge for food, check that we had electricity, check how clean the house was.

Quote:


If someone makes allegations of neglect, they have to look into it - what if you _weren't_ you, and you were a mom who was passed out on meth in the bedroom and didn't feed your kids all day? Does anyone acknowledge that this happens _every day_ in America?

This woman knew me. She had let me babysit her child for several months until it became clear that our parenting styles were night and day. We actually liked each other at one point.

If someone has some real reason to believe that a mom is cooking meth and either selling or using with kids in the house, yes, then CPS should be involved. But you don't risk having a child removed from his parents custody because you disagree with their parenting style. Having a skinny kid, or a crying kid, or even cussing at a kid is not grounds for losing your kid.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I would definitely not call CPS in either of those cases, even though I think they're both pretty icky. The first, sadly, is fairly common.

I would call CPS when I had direct or significant circumstantial evidence that:
1) a child was being physically abused
2) a child was being sexually abused
3) a child was being severely neglected--malnourished, rotting teeth, open wounds not being cared for, sitting in dirty diapers for days, living in extreme filth (animal or human urine/feces, weeks of garbage piled up), etc.
4) parents were impaired due to drug or alcohol abuse

I think CPS can be life-saving when called in cases of severe child abuse; I also think they be overly aggressive and dangerous at times.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Since I am one of those who said I would pretty much never report a parent to CPS . . .

I think many issues that typically become abuse/neglect situations can be remedied with support for the parents. As an individual, I would offer help cleaning, babysitting, etc to a mom or dad who seemed in need of the help -- a parent who is overly stressed and lashing out at her kids isn't necessarily a bad parent or bad person, she just needs some relief. Befriending someone in a situation like this is apt to do way more good than yanking her kids and putting her through hell to *maybe* get them back. So ideally, I'd like to see more support in the community for parents who are struggling -- more support and less condemnation.

I think the state has it's place in dealing with kids who are TRULY abused, though I think far more effort needs to be made to ensure that kids who cannot remain with their parents are placed with relatives. I also think federal adoption bonuses are complete and utter bull and need to be done away with; they completely contradict any plans for reunification the state SHOULD have.


My feelings exactly. We accomplish nothing by approaching other parents with a judgemental attitude. We need to reach out with compassion to those who are struggling. We are the lucky ones because someone took the time to teach us how to parent in a compassionate manner.


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## momofayden (Jan 8, 2007)

I wouldn't call on either, too.

the first. some parents whole heartedly believe in crying it out. and it can entail multiple HOURS of crying until they cry themselves to sleep. it's horribly heart breaking but not illegal.

2nd- it's not against the law to cuss at your kids. it's may be considered emotional abuse but i don't think there's leagally andything you can do about that.


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## KentuckyDoulaMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 

Kentucky, I couldn't find your story.The only thing that came up with a search of your username and cps on google is something about how you wish your husband would've called CPS on his ex for your DSS for neglect. So I guess you're not totally against CPS. Is that what you were referring to?


No, my story is here on MDC, I'll find it for you later. I think its posted twice.
ETA: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=667755&page=2

I'm not totally against CPS, no. Actually I am debating whether to continue on in school for social work (almost finished with my nursing degree- would work weekends as a nurse while continuing on in school for SW)

And with dh's ex, its defiantely a case of children in need of being removed or highly supervised by CPS that weren't, over and over again - despite the fact that the mother had/has a 10 year plus history/record with them in two countries and three states, plenty of reported medical & school documentation also.
Its just crazy.







:


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I would definitely not call CPS in either of those cases, even though I think they're both pretty icky. The first, sadly, is fairly common.

I would call CPS when I had direct or significant circumstantial evidence that:
1) a child was being physically abused
2) a child was being sexually abused
3) a child was being severely neglected--malnourished, rotting teeth, open wounds not being cared for, sitting in dirty diapers for days, living in extreme filth (animal or human urine/feces, weeks of garbage piled up), etc.
4) parents were impaired due to drug or alcohol abuse

I think CPS can be life-saving when called in cases of severe child abuse; I also think they be overly aggressive and dangerous at times.


Those are pretty much my guidlines too, and I think there are good standards to go by.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:

As in "get in the f-ing car you f-ing brat" kind of thing.
Have not read all the responses on this thread but wanted to say that this is verbal abuse and yes, I would report it. I don't know that it is not a crime since I am not a legal expert for the state in which this woman lives, as most of us are not. But it is not for us to judge but CPS. Let Child Protection Services do their job. And even if it is not criminal abuse, it could still being considered abuse that warrants protection under state law, justifiedly so.

And if I heard a husband saying that to his wife, you bet I would try to get her out of the relationship if I knew the woman and I would also report it if I had enough info as to who the people were.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

My friend's four year old son once ran through the grocery store yelling "Don't beat me mama! Don't beat me!"

That's because she was using "playful parenting" and had challenged him to a *race* to the end of the grocery aisle.

She didn't shop in that store for months after that... even now she's terrified that the people there think she's a child abuser...


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

That is so not/funny, omg!

For those who would call CPS on strangers in a store or something, how would you help them find who you are talking about? Honest question. I've seen some dodgy situations but I wouldn't have even known what to report if I called. "Some guy was screaming at his kid at the bus stop" isn't exactly going to give them much to work with. If it's bad enough to call 911, certainly I'll do that, but CPS doesn't exactly come with lights and sirens so how would they even know who to investigate?


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
My friend's four year old son once ran through the grocery store yelling "Don't beat me mama! Don't beat me!"

That's because she was using "playful parenting" and had challenged him to a *race* to the end of the grocery aisle.

She didn't shop in that store for months after that... even now she's terrified that the people there think she's a child abuser...

See, I would call that paranoid. Was the kid crying and terrified? Or was he shrieking and happy? Anyone could tell by context what he meant. And so what? She could totally explain the situation.

BSD, I don't think you can call CPS on strangers too easily. I remember once on MDC a woman posted that she'd called 911 after hearing a father take his son into the bathroom and spank him severely, and the parents calling the boys horrible, horrible names throughout dinner, and threatened them some more with more violence. The police didn't end up doing anything at ALL, and the violent parents I think then threatened violence upon the caller. GOOD TIMES FAMILY.

That said, I do something. Usually by trying to distract - i.e. giving some help, talking about how hard it is to raise kids, making something up about my kid being just _awful_ until I read this book by Dr. Sears...boy it helped so much. I also usually carry stickers around to give out to crying kids who need some distraction.

heh heh. But if a person is too shy, they can do a lot by just stopping and watching. Being a pair of eyes to help a parent remember that people care about how kids are treated.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Right, right. So we can all keep saying that CPS is the big nasty and therefore, we can feel good about turning blind eye to abusive situations? I guess nobody has any better ideas? I'm serious. If people have a great alternative or other things they'd do if they see someone calling their kids effing brats, get in the effing car?

Yeah - I have a great alternative. Butt out, because you have no clue what's going on, or how that person usually parents. There were several times that my public behaviour would have apparently earned me the attentions of CPS were it witnessed by people here. DS1 was a healthy, happy little boy. There was just a period when our family was going through a lot of crap, and unfortunately, one of the places it sometimes spilled out was on ds1. Of course, if the underfunded and understaffed people at CPS weren't busy telling people to provide a list of all their friends and define what benefit those friendships have for the family, and asking people to define their career goals...maybe they'd have someone available when they get a call about a child who hasn't eaten in two weeks, or is showing up at ER with broken bones on a regular basis.

How about the little boy I saw forced out of bed in the middle of the night, by social workers and two policement with guns, because there was an unsubstantiated accusation of sexual abuse against his father, regarding his older brother? It was all okay, though - after forcing him to undergo a full physical (at the hands of a total stranger...apparently it's not sexual abuse if it's the state violating a child's body) and finding no evidence of sexual abuse against any of the kids, they let them go home. It only took a year. Of course, it was a given that my friend would lose his kids...he was "weird" and had "inappropriate" artwork in his home, and he was tried and convicted in the minds of the social workers as soon as they walked in. I was there, and I don't _ever_ want someone that self-righteous, sanctimonious, biased and smarmy in my home...and I certainly don't want them here if they have the power to destroy my family and sexually abuse my children with no repercussions. Those people are scary - and at least one of them flat-out lied in court.

Quote:

Heffern, I am sorry you had a mean neighbor, they're usually the sort to report (along with family members) maliciously. But what ended up happening with CPS? Did they take your child away? Or did they say the allegations were unfounded and drop it? If someone makes allegations of neglect, they have to look into it - what if you _weren't_ you, and you were a mom who was passed out on meth in the bedroom and didn't feed your kids all day? Does anyone acknowledge that this happens _every day_ in America?
It happens every day in Canada, too. My friend lost his kids for a year, based on _one_ accusation from a disgruntled family "friend". I have another friend who went for custody when his ex dropped the kids off while she was in rehab - their behaviour showed signs of abuse (the 1-year-old dropping to the floor in a fetal position with her hands over her head when he raised his voice, for example), and he realized they couldn't go back. When he talked to the social worker, he was told "oh, I'm glad - we were thinking we might have to apprehend them". Apparently, a spurious accusation of sexual abuse is sufficient to yank a child from a loving home...but documented evidence of ongoing physical abuse and severe neglect (grocery money all going to buy heroin) just warrants "investigation".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marybethorama* 









I went through some rough times too. I've BTDT. Just like what you wrote.
I did have a visit from CPS. (Because my house was messy-I had been trying to declutter and there were many piles). It ended up being fine BUT it was very difficult.

I was also reported another time because my 4 yo wasn't toilet trained. In that case it was treated as a frivolous call. Even frivolous calls can be hurtful though if you're the recipient.

My parenting and housekeeping have now improved greatly. I no longer have the anger problems I did and I have learned to clean my house. Oh yeah, and the kid in question is potty trained :nana:

My housekeeping mostly sucks, but at least it's just clutter, not filth.

I solved my problems remarkably easily, really. I just said, "I don't love you anymore, and you need to move out" to my ex, and...VOILA! Who knew it really could be that easy? (I didn't bother getting into the stealing, drug abuse, crappy and minimal interaction with ds1, etc...we'd been fighting about all those long enough.)


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## Hopesmommy (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shakti A.* 
For the record I have friends who parent in a fairly mainstream way who I think are good parents and friends who are about as AP as I consider myself to be who are absolute trainwrecks as parents. It's really not as simple, ime, as mainstream = bad and AP = good.

Yes, I agree.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yeah - I have a great alternative. Butt out, because you have no clue what's going on, or how that person usually parents.

So, are there no circumstances that you feel warrant "butting in?" What if you overheard a man beating his wife? Or his dog? Or his child? Is the child less deserving of protection because I don't normally know how he parents?

"Well, he seems like a good husband normally, I'm sure she deserves that beating. I'm not one to judge. I'll just put my earplugs in like a good neighbor."

And when that kid ends up dead, then I guess I'll sleep soundly, because at least I never made any accusations that could cause him to be torn from his father's loving arms.

ETA:
1,500 children _die every year from child abuse and neglect_. That is just over 4 fatalities every day.
http://www.childhelp.org/resources/l...ter/statistics

The most dangerous time? The first year of life.

The website is great - they also have a toll-free anonymous hotline parents can call when they feel they're about to hurt their child or are stressed. How about having that number on hand next time you see a parent being violent to their child?


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
ETA:
1,500 children _die every year from child abuse and neglect_. That is just over 4 fatalities every day.

Can you find the number of children who are abused, neglected or murdered in state custody every year?

...That number is shamefully higher than it is for those children living at home with their "abusive" parents.

Odd. For a system designed to protect the children, it ends up being the one that harms them the most.


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## MissPlum (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
. The website is great - they also have a toll-free anonymous hotline parents can call when they feel they're about to hurt their child or are stressed. How about having that number on hand next time you see a parent being violent to their child?

I would be very hesitant about doing this. What if the parent felt confronted and their reaction was to become even more violent towards either the child or you?


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Can you find the number of children who are abused, neglected or murdered in state custody every year?

...That number is shamefully higher than it is for those children living at home with their "abusive" parents.

Odd. For a system designed to protect the children, it ends up being the one that harms them the most.

Sure, can you share those statistics, as you are familiar with them? I like how you put "abusive" in quotes. Like these kids' mom was just an unwitting sucker of the system? Neglect so bad that her daughter's skin was peeling off from an unchanged diaper? Not feeding, locking in the closet, beatings?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissPlum* 
I would be very hesitant about doing this. What if the parent felt confronted and their reaction was to become even more violent towards either the child or you?

Well, that's just the chance I take. I haven't had any bad reactions yet to offering help or sympathy for the job of parenting, while trying to defuse a situation. Stickers are magic.

I wouldn't just hand a number and say, "hey bad mama, you need this!" I'd start a conversation and talk about how hard it is sometimes, etc, and talk about how talking can help. I would like to make clear that this is if they are yelling or becoming more agitated. If I saw someone spanking, shaking, or being very violent to their child, I would probably call the police, just as I would if I saw two strangers fighting or a couple coming to blows.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

While I wouldn't call in either situation, I just wanted to point out that it isn't your responsiblity to find a pattern of abuse or seek out the reasons, or understand the family situation. *If you suspect abuse, you call.* I'm a mandated reporter. I ask myself, do I suspect it? Yep, then call. Not really, then I don't. It is CPS's job to find out the details. Sometimes I call and say, "I don't know if this is reportable, but. . . " and sometimes they say, "That's not really reportable, thanks for calling," or they give me some guidelines or send me a pamphlet. As a teacher, I have called CPS about once a year for the past 7 years. In only one case was the child removed and that was a _very_ extreme case. The rest were "investigated" and refered to counseling or parenting classes or nothing at all.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
So, you think nudity in a household always leads to sexual abuse?

odd....

-Angela









as I sit here typing nudely...

(Dear God! My kids have seen a _tit_!)


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Sure, can you share those statistics, as you are familiar with them? I like how you put "abusive" in quotes. Like these kids' mom was just an unwitting sucker of the system? Neglect so bad that her daughter's skin was peeling off from an unchanged diaper? Not feeding, locking in the closet, beatings?

Sure I can. National data on child abuse fatalities show that a child is twice as likely to die of abuse in foster care than in the general population. One study in Baltimore found the rate of substantiated child sexual abuse in foster care more than four times higher than the rate in general population. Another study in Indiana found three times more physical abuse and twice the rate of sexual abuse in foster homes than in the general population. Group homes the rate for physical abuse was 10 times more and more than 28 times the rate of sexual abuse as in the general population.

Investigating themselves is something the state really doesn't like to do. So abuse gets covered up, lied about, and hidden. Until another child dies because of it.

There are lots of different places to find statistics on this subject, and the numbers change a bit here and there. The one thing that doesn't change is, foster care is deadly dangerous. (and yes, there are good foster parents out there but sadly they are a minority.) Every study, including those done by the Federal government itself proves that children are abused and killed more in foster care than when they are kept with their parents.

Family preservation is what we need to strive for, because its what works. The family IS the most important unit, even those that are dysfunctional. There is no one here that is denying that abuse happens in homes. (and the word was put in quotes before because we were talking of the falsely accused earlier,... you know.. parents that others just think are liars or paranoid for no reason..) But people need to recognize and acknowledge that removing the children and tearing the family apart, EVEN IF there was abuse is not the best way. Keeping the family together and helping them should be the goal, and its not anymore. It doesn't have anything to do with families. CPS itself will say its not about families. (unless they're referencing their new pretty children they have to adopt out. THEN they mention family a lot.) Its all about the children. Protect the children. Save the children. Be there for the children. And in all of that saving, we throw them to the lions den by popping them in a situation that is guaranteed to be at least twice as dangerous as their home life ever was.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Sure I can. National data on child abuse fatalities show that a child is twice as likely to die of abuse in foster care than in the general population. One study in Baltimore found the rate of substantiated child sexual abuse in foster care more than four times higher than the rate in general population. Another study in Indiana found three times more physical abuse and twice the rate of sexual abuse in foster homes than in the general population. Group homes the rate for physical abuse was 10 times more and more than 28 times the rate of sexual abuse as in the general population.

Investigating themselves is something the state really doesn't like to do. So abuse gets covered up, lied about, and hidden. Until another child dies because of it.

There are lots of different places to find statistics on this subject, and the numbers change a bit here and there. The one thing that doesn't change is, foster care is deadly dangerous. (and yes, there are good foster parents out there but sadly they are a minority.) Every study, including those done by the Federal government itself proves that children are abused and killed more in foster care than when they are kept with their parents.

Family preservation is what we need to strive for, because its what works. The family IS the most important unit, even those that are dysfunctional. There is no one here that is denying that abuse happens in homes. (and the word was put in quotes before because we were talking of the falsely accused earlier,... you know.. parents that others just think are liars or paranoid for no reason..) But people need to recognize and acknowledge that removing the children and tearing the family apart, EVEN IF there was abuse is not the best way. Keeping the family together and helping them should be the goal, and its not anymore. It doesn't have anything to do with families. CPS itself will say its not about families. (unless they're referencing their new pretty children they have to adopt out. THEN they mention family a lot.) Its all about the children. Protect the children. Save the children. Be there for the children. And in all of that saving, we throw them to the lions den by popping them in a situation that is guaranteed to be at least twice as dangerous as their home life ever was.


Thank you for that-I think I remember writing a paper on that one time? A long time ago perhaps? Anyway, because children are more likely to be abused and neglected when they are in the foster care system, it makes me very hesitant to call CPS, and when other solutions are possible, I employ those first. It is right that, yes some homes are dysfunctional, but if there was an agency that had the resources to at least help these families, not tear them apart, it would be of a great service to children. Some CPS branches DO have services that are directed at "Family Preservation", however in depth they are, I don't know, but I don't think it's anywhere near the degree that we need to be seeing.

The familial unit, and the stability of it is the most influential and important structure in a child's life. Tearing to apart, even when there are some questionable activities(and I am NOT talking about severe abuse here, or cases where the child is in danger of losing his/her life or is risking being beaten black and blue, or is being sexually abused) is proven over and over again to be very detremental to the both the child and the family, and can and most often does result in irreperable emotional scars. Just ask the mothers on here who have been falsely accused-some suffer from PTSD, others live in fear of the next knock on the door. Ideally, if a child HAS to be removed from the house, the best placement is with relatives on either side who have an emotional attachment to the child. Placing a child with strangers who have no emotional attachment to them is going to inevitably place them at risk for abuse, statistically.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 

Family preservation is what we need to strive for, because its what works. The family IS the most important unit, even those that are dysfunctional. There is no one here that is denying that abuse happens in homes. (and the word was put in quotes before because we were talking of the falsely accused earlier,... you know.. parents that others just think are liars or paranoid for no reason..) But people need to recognize and acknowledge that removing the children and tearing the family apart, EVEN IF there was abuse is not the best way. Keeping the family together and helping them should be the goal, and its not anymore. It doesn't have anything to do with families. CPS itself will say its not about families. (unless they're referencing their new pretty children they have to adopt out. THEN they mention family a lot.) Its all about the children. Protect the children. Save the children. Be there for the children. And in all of that saving, we throw them to the lions den by popping them in a situation that is guaranteed to be at least twice as dangerous as their home life ever was.

So, it's better for a three year old girl to keep living with her sexually abusive father, in the name of family preservation? A mother who's selling her daughter on the Internet? Is that realling throwing them into the lion's den, to remove them from that home?

I don't know about where you live, but where I live, there's such an emphasis on family preservation that children are routinely returned home...and then killed a short time later. It happens at least once a month.

I know false allegations are HARD. But usually, it doesn't come to much, either, as we can see from the statistics and news reports. Children are not usually removed because of cosleeping or a dirty house.

But, whatever. I give up. Keep being so fearful that it will unfairly happen to YOU that you won't report true abuse you see, and thinking CPS is Teh Devil.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545* 
Thank you for that-I think I remember writing a paper on that one time? A long time ago perhaps? Anyway, because children are more likely to be abused and neglected when they are in the foster care system, it makes me very hesitant to call CPS, and when other solutions are possible, I employ those first. It is right that, yes some homes are dysfunctional, but if there was an agency that had the resources to at least help these families, not tear them apart, it would be of a great service to children. Some CPS branches DO have services that are directed at "Family Preservation", however in depth they are, I don't know, but I don't think it's anywhere near the degree that we need to be seeing.

The familial unit, and the stability of it is the most influential and important structure in a child's life. Tearing to apart, even when there are some questionable activities(and I am NOT talking about severe abuse here, or cases where the child is in danger of losing his/her life or is risking being beaten black and blue, or is being sexually abused) is proven over and over again to be very detremental to the both the child and the family, and can and most often does result in irreperable emotional scars. Just ask the mothers on here who have been falsely accused-some suffer from PTSD, others live in fear of the next knock on the door. Ideally, if a child HAS to be removed from the house, the best placement is with relatives on either side who have an emotional attachment to the child. Placing a child with strangers who have no emotional attachment to them is going to inevitably place them at risk for abuse, statistically.

I pretty much agree with this. In most cases kids should be kept with family members either pparents, or other relatives, but I don't see what that has to do with calling CPS. CPS agrees with you, too.

I've called seven times and 6 times the child remained in the home and wasn't taken away from the parents for longer than the interview. In the seventh case, it was very extreme and many, many people had called. I call when I have a hunch because if there is just one call on a family, they just "check in" with them, which has even happened with my family, so I don't take it lightly. But, if several people have had a hunch, there might be something going on.

In several cases when I have called, they have not even taken a report. I encourage people to call if they suspect abuse and let CPS decide if it is a valid "reportable" concern. For example, one time I called because I knew a 9 year old who was left home to babysit his 12 month old brother for 8 hours daily in the summer. This particular 9 year old was very immature and not equipped for this, but they said it wasn't reportable unless there was more known danger and they sent me a pamphlet on babysitting guidlines. When you call, the don't immediatly make a report. First, they ask you to tell them the situation, then if it is reportable they start asking for the names and addresses of the people involved.

In many cases, I feel like they haven't done enough. I get a letter back a few weeks later saying that they found nothing which is crazy to me. Another example, a 12 year old girl whose mother had moved away with her boyfriend and left the daughter in the care of the daughters boyfriend who was 21. CPS told me that this boyfriend was actually the child's gaurdian. Ok, she's sleeping with her guardian! What kind of power dynamic is that? They said she seemed mature for her age.

So, in general, I believe that it is usually best for the child to remain with family. I call CPS when I suspect abuse.

I do find it odd that on TAO right now there is a thread that if you hear a man and a woman fighting and you suspect violence you have a moral obligation to call the police, but with children and parents we should butt out because we don't know the situation. I figure that whatever a parent is willing to do in the parking lot is 100% nicer/kinder/gentler than what is going on in the privacy of the home.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
So, it's better for a three year old girl to keep living with her sexually abusive father, in the name of family preservation? A mother who's selling her daughter on the Internet? Is that realling throwing them into the lion's den, to remove them from that home?

I don't know about where you live, but where I live, there's such an emphasis on family preservation that children are routinely returned home...and then killed a short time later. It happens at least once a month.

I know false allegations are HARD. But usually, it doesn't come to much, either, as we can see from the statistics and news reports. Children are not usually removed because of cosleeping or a dirty house.

But, whatever. I give up. Keep being so fearful that it will unfairly happen to YOU that you won't report true abuse you see, and thinking CPS is Teh Devil.

I am not fearful. I am cautious. Because it *has* happened to me. Its not some "what if" in my mind. Its been a reality.

I'm not against CPS. I'm against what it has become. There are no checks and balances in place to protect the children properly _or_ the family. They are given absolute authority with no repercussions whatsoever for mistakes that are made. Make child abuse and neglect a criminal charge, and that would be a good step in the right direction. That way, families would have the right to a fair trial with a jury instead of what they have now where corruption and bias run rampant. Innocent until proven guilty instead of the way things are run now, ... guilty until proven innocent.

I already stated earlier in this thread that if I saw or knew about clear child abuse or neglect I would call the police. I don't turn a blind eye to what I see around me. I also don't keep CPS on speed dial to call every time I see someone yell at their child, or do something that I personally wouldn't do as a parent. I take the choice to call the authorities very seriously. I don't see it as a "Oh well, I'll call and they can figure out if abuse is really happening or not.. No harm can come from it anyway if there is no abuse." I'm sorry, but I've seen first hand and many other times from others that its simply not that cut and dry.

I much prefer to try to help the person out myself. Befriend them. Talk to them. Offer to help with babysitting, laundry, etc... Of course there are things that are just too far out there to fix. Sexual abuse being one of them. There is nothing I can personally do to fix that, so I would urge them to contact the authorities and get their child into therapy. I would talk to them about it first. Then, if they refused... I would call someone. Because I do believe that children need to be protected and helped when clearly there is abuse or neglect going on. And unfortunately CPS is the only system we have in place, as messed up as it is.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

FSM, I really think it is unfair of you to say that those of us who wouldn't call the authorities about a CIO situation or the mom swearing at her kids would turn a blind eye to more serious and chronic forms of abuse. For one thing, that insinuation just plain isn't true.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I had a friend who was neglecting her children. They had dental issues that were not being properly treated (both toddlers needed surgery), they were malnourished, they were not being supervised properly...to the point that they were getting injured. The house was filthy messy, and it was dangerous for kids. This was a CD, Anti Vax, Anti Circ, Breastfeeding, vegetarian crunchy mama. She is truly a great person, just not a very good mom unfortunately. There were times when I actually got to the point where I felt like calling CPS, but I had to keep reminding myself that the kids were better off in their current situation bc they were not being beaten or starved, and at least they were with parents who did love them.

I tried to be supportive...there were about 5 mamas including myself and we all tried to help her in any way that we could. WE would watch her kids, help her clean and organize, listen, offer support, even try to talk some sense into her husband. We helped and supported her for about 1 1/2 years.
But things just kept getting worse...they house was dirtier, the police were showing up at the house because the 3 year old was getting out and playing in the street or neighbors yards for long periods of time without anyone noticing that he was gone. The kids finally got the much needed dental treatment, but that was the only improvement. I started witnessing verbal and mild physical abuse directed at the kids from my friend. I felt helpless and I really wished that there was someone that I could call that would help her and not just come in and judge her, force her to jump through hoops with the threat of losing her kids hanging over her head. I even talked it over with friends about whether or not to call CPS. I really love these kids and hated to see them going through this. I eventually just had to remove myself from the friendship. It is really sad. I still see the kids when there dad has them, and things seem to be a little better for them bc the parents are now separated, but it is heart wrenching!!
But I am really glad that I didn't call CPS. It may have worked out if I had...maybe they would have helped out with some classes and left the kids at home. But maybe they would have traumatized my friend's family in the process of "Helping" them.

The only time that CPS should be called is when the circumstances are very extreme. Sever beating, starvation, forced labor, sexual abuse etc

Maybe someday there will be a better solution. Until there is, though, we have to reach out to those who we see crossing the line into child abuse. Most people who are doing that were raised in an even worse situation and maybe don't even understand that it can be different. I remember seeing nice families on sitcoms when I was growing up in an abusive home, and I really thought it was the polar opposite of what families were really like. I didn't understand there was really a possibility to live in a family without violence and abuse.
I was lucky and I learned that there is another way, but many people haven't yet.

There are so many good ideas in this thread for things that we can do to support these parents. It would almost be nice to have a separate thread that was alternatives to calling CPS. So that other people who are thinking about calling might change their mind if the situation doesn't warrant it.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I had a friend who was neglecting her children. They had dental issues that were not being properly treated (both toddlers needed surgery), they were malnourished, they were not being supervised properly...to the point that they were getting injured. The house was filthy messy, and it was dangerous for kids. This was a CD, Anti Vax, Anti Circ, Breastfeeding, vegetarian crunchy mama. She is truly a great person, just not a very good mom unfortunately. There were times when I actually got to the point where I felt like calling CPS, but I had to keep reminding myself that the kids were better off in their current situation bc they were not being beaten or starved, and at least they were with parents who did love them.

I tried to be supportive...there were about 5 mamas including myself and we all tried to help her in any way that we could. WE would watch her kids, help her clean and organize, listen, offer support, even try to talk some sense into her husband. We helped and supported her for about 1 1/2 years.
But things just kept getting worse...they house was dirtier, the police were showing up at the house because the 3 year old was getting out and playing in the street or neighbors yards for long periods of time without anyone noticing that he was gone. The kids finally got the much needed dental treatment, but that was the only improvement. I started witnessing verbal and mild physical abuse directed at the kids from my friend. I felt helpless and I really wished that there was someone that I could call that would help her and not just come in and judge her, force her to jump through hoops with the threat of losing her kids hanging over her head. I even talked it over with friends about whether or not to call CPS. I really love these kids and hated to see them going through this. I eventually just had to remove myself from the friendship. It is really sad. I still see the kids when there dad has them, and things seem to be a little better for them bc the parents are now separated, but it is heart wrenching!!
But I am really glad that I didn't call CPS. It may have worked out if I had...maybe they would have helped out with some classes and left the kids at home. But maybe they would have traumatized my friend's family in the process of "Helping" them.

The only time that CPS should be called is when the circumstances are very extreme. Sever beating, starvation, forced labor, sexual abuse etc

I guess we just have different points of view, because I would definitely have called CPS.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Can you find the number of children who are abused, neglected or murdered in state custody every year?

...That number is shamefully higher than it is for those children living at home with their "abusive" parents.

Odd. For a system designed to protect the children, it ends up being the one that harms them the most.

Yes, I can find part of that number. I think a previous poster cited from this:
http://www.nccpr.org/newissues/1.html#1

The report said:

Quote:

National data on child abuse fatalities show that a child is nearly twice as likely to die of abuse in foster care as in the general population.
Here's the fine print: About 0.73 percent of American children are in foster care, but 1.22 percent of child abuse fatalities are in foster care. U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Administration on Children, Youth and Families. Child Maltreatment 2002 (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2001). See chart in Chapter Four.

I've done a small amount of digging here:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cwo03/index.htm
and have been unable to tease out anything about the 1.22% who were abuse fatalities while in foster care - who was the offender? The foster parent or the abuser on visitation, or some other circumstance? This number being in foster care does not mean that the offender was the foster parent.

I think everyone should spend some time looking at the above link and if you're in the US look up the bar charts on state by state performance. The variance is immense. Some states seem reasonable, some are awful.

In Chapter II, there's this:

Quote:

Percent of children in foster care who were victims of maltreatment by a foster parent or facility staff member (N=41 States) average 0.44%.
The thing that I think is scary is that online communities and global media are making issues seem larger quantitatively than they are. We hear so much about abuses by the child welfare system, happening all over the place, that we inflate the degree of the problem in our own community. I am in no way arguing that some child welfare systems don't have HUGE problems, or that the experiences people have shared are untrue. But I can't get my head around the idea that one would choose to ignore clear, blatant neglect or abuse because they fear what _might_ happen in foster care or getting CPS involved (and these two things are not synonymous - it is hugely expensive to take children into care, and cost-cutting governments are putting active pressure to reduce the number of kids in care - never mind that it's considered good practice to support families rather than break them apart wherever possible).


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## mikes_becky (May 7, 2007)

I have not read all 7 pages of this thread, but would like to point one thing out in case it hasn't been covered already.

There are terrible cases of genuine abuse going on in the US all the time, and we all know caseworkers are overloaded and can't tend even the cases already assigned to them.

With that in mind, every time someone calls and says "I saw this woman cussing out her kids in a parking lot, here's the license number," they are taking valuable time and resources away from legitimate, dangerous cases of abuse. It's another piece of paper that has to be sorted through, another phone call that needs to be returned.

I would absolutely not call CPS under either of those circumstances. Partly because equating it with "abuse" and reporting it as such comes very close to my understanding of "bearing false witness against your neighbor." Partly because it would be on my soul if my nosiness caused some actual beaten, neglected, or sexually abused child to be overlooked for services, or even have to wait one more day for them, because CPS was investigating my "that mom used the f-word" complaint. No way.

-Rebecca


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mikes_becky* 
I have not read all 7 pages of this thread, but would like to point one thing out in case it hasn't been covered already.

There are terrible cases of genuine abuse going on in the US all the time, and we all know caseworkers are overloaded and can't tend even the cases already assigned to them.

With that in mind, every time someone calls and says "I saw this woman cussing out her kids in a parking lot, here's the license number," they are taking valuable time and resources away from legitimate, dangerous cases of abuse. It's another piece of paper that has to be sorted through, another phone call that needs to be returned.

I would absolutely not call CPS under either of those circumstances. Partly because equating it with "abuse" and reporting it as such comes very close to my understanding of "bearing false witness against your neighbor." Partly because it would be on my soul if my nosiness caused some actual beaten, neglected, or sexually abused child to be overlooked for services, or even have to wait one more day for them, because CPS was investigating my "that mom used the f-word" complaint. No way.

-Rebecca

I wouldn't call either, but just because you call DOES NOT mean a report is filed. They can just say, "Thanks, but that is not reportable" and hang up. I don't think it hurts to call and say, "I saw something today and I'm not sure about it. . . " I've done it a couple of times. Sometimes they do a report, sometimes not. Again, I personally wouldn't call for the original situations.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
So, are there no circumstances that you feel warrant "butting in?" What if you overheard a man beating his wife? Or his dog? Or his child? Is the child less deserving of protection because I don't normally know how he parents?

"Well, he seems like a good husband normally, I'm sure she deserves that beating. I'm not one to judge. I'll just put my earplugs in like a good neighbor."

And when that kid ends up dead, then I guess I'll sleep soundly, because at least I never made any accusations that could cause him to be torn from his father's loving arms.

It's a pretty big jump from someone talking to their children in way we don't like, or doing CIO (even to the earplug extreme) and overhearing a beating. I've never seen anybody beat their child, and if I did, I suspect I'd call CPS, even though I know the kid is very likely to end up in a situation just as bad. We weren't talking about that...we were talking about siccing the state on a total stranger, because we saw her having a bad day. CPS can - and does - destroy families. They should be called when there's something really serious going on...not when we don't like the way someone parents. I've _seen_ them using people's taste in movies or music as a strike against them as parents...where does that lead?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I figure that whatever a parent is willing to do in the parking lot is 100% nicer/kinder/gentler than what is going on in the privacy of the home.

And, I know for an absolute _fact_ that this is _not_ always the case. Yes - there are people here who talk about how they were abused much worse at home than in public. There are also people - like me - who have been on the exact opposite side of it, and have said so. I've seen this so many times than I'm really starting to wonder if people get some kind of self-righteous ego stroke out of this "ooooh - what's going on behind closed doors?" crap.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
And, I know for an absolute _fact_ that this is _not_ always the case. Yes - there are people here who talk about how they were abused much worse at home than in public. There are also people - like me - who have been on the exact opposite side of it, and have said so. I've seen this so many times than I'm really starting to wonder if people get some kind of self-righteous ego stroke out of this "ooooh - what's going on behind closed doors?" crap.

Wow. I totally do not understand what self-righteous ego stroke I'm having. I'm talking about myself. I've lost it a few times and knowing I'm in public makes me shut up where as at home I don't have that to stop me. I didn't think it was uncommon.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Wow. I totally do not understand what self-righteous ego stroke I'm having. I'm talking about myself. I've lost it a few times and knowing I'm in public makes me shut up where as at home I don't have that to stop me. I didn't think it was uncommon.

Sorry. I may have over-reacted to your post. I've seen variations of this comment too many times here. While you may have been referring to yourself, many of the people making these comments very obviously aren't. I'm afraid you caught the edge of a frustration that's been building for a while.

My parenting was always _much_ worse in public. I think it still is - I find home much less stressful than being out and trying to get things done. I'm just fed up with comments implying that anyone who's parenting in a less than stellar fashion in public is doing all these horrible things to their children behind closed doors. Again - I'm really sorry for lashing out as you didn't mean it that way.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Sorry. I may have over-reacted to your post. I've seen variations of this comment too many times here. While you may have been referring to yourself, many of the people making these comments very obviously aren't. I'm afraid you caught the edge of a frustration that's been building for a while.

My parenting was always _much_ worse in public. I think it still is - I find home much less stressful than being out and trying to get things done. I'm just fed up with comments implying that anyone who's parenting in a less than stellar fashion in public is doing all these horrible things to their children behind closed doors. Again - I'm really sorry for lashing out as you didn't mean it that way.









I can see that out in public can be more stressful. My kid might have more tantrums out in public, but I seem more able to keep my mouth shut when I have old ladies staring at me.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
But I can't get my head around the idea that one would choose to ignore clear, blatant neglect or abuse because they fear what _might_ happen in foster care or getting CPS involved

I didn't hear anyone say they would choose to ignore blatant neglect or abuse. What I did hear people saying is that they would choose not to call them in over every little thing that COULD *POSSIBLY* be abuse or neglect. Because the "Oh gee, I'll call and I'm sure it'll be nothing but at least I'll feel better calling" is a bunch of crap IMO. Sure. Feel better about calling and possibly ruin a family. No skin of your back. You're still sleep okay at night because at least you didn't turn a blind eye to anything!









*"you" not meaning _you_ personally.

The truth is that often the child is better off living in their house than in foster care. It often is NOT the best place for a child to go. Only if there is severe abuse/neglect would that be a good option and only then if kinship care fell through. Lets not even get started on kinship care. They rarely make those placements because they find SOME reason that kinship isn't "safe enough" and off they go to foster care. Make kinship care a reality. Make keeping the child in their FAMILY a reality and then maybe CPS will start to improve and the number of children aging out of the system will lower.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:

joensally said: But I can't get my head around the idea that one would choose to ignore clear, blatant neglect or abuse because they fear what might happen in foster care or getting CPS involved.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
I didn't hear anyone say they would choose to ignore blatant neglect or abuse. What I did hear people saying is that they would choose not to call them in over every little thing that COULD *POSSIBLY* be abuse or neglect. Because the "Oh gee, I'll call and I'm sure it'll be nothing but at least I'll feel better calling" is a bunch of crap IMO. Sure. Feel better about calling and possibly ruin a family. No skin of your back. You're still sleep okay at night because at least you didn't turn a blind eye to anything!










*"you" not meaning _you_ personally.

The truth is that often the child is better off living in their house than in foster care. It often is NOT the best place for a child to go. Only if there is severe abuse/neglect would that be a good option and only then if kinship care fell through. Lets not even get started on kinship care. They rarely make those placements because they find SOME reason that kinship isn't "safe enough" and off they go to foster care. Make kinship care a reality. Make keeping the child in their FAMILY a reality and then maybe CPS will start to improve and the number of children aging out of the system will lower.

I should have been clearer in my post, and in my own head. I was reflecting on the many, many threads I've read where the attitude has been very extreme in the opposition to CPS even when children are very likely/certainly being abused/neglected. In the instances the OP cited, or where a parent is being less than stellar in their interactions in public, I would not call. I also don't uniformly buy the notion that parents must do worse in privacy, in part because I know from experience that the pressure on kids and parents being out and about can be great (ie kids are excited and parents are embarassed).

Your comments about kinship care may be true for the jurisdiction you're in, but are not true universally. And this is an example of what I spoke to earlier - I might read your post about how it is where you are and extrapolate from that that is how it is where I am. In fact, it's not. Where I am, kinship care is on the rise while kids coming into foster care is going down. Resources are being put into supporting kinship arrangements. And huge resources are put into monitoring foster placements to ensure that kids aren't abused while in care. Does any of that mean I believe foster care, or even kinship care is so great - NO WAY! Whenever a child can be maintained at home safely, that is always the best option.

I'm not sure how you define "severe abuse/neglect." Kids deserve so much better than staying with parents and "moderate abuse/neglect."


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I don't think it hurts to call and say, "I saw something today and I'm not sure about it. . . "

Well, you're just wrong. It's hurts A LOT if you are the family wrongly accused.

Can you try for a moment to actually close your eyes and imagine it? Just for one moment . . . don't just read this, try to actually imagine it happening to you. Imagine the knock at the door, the badge flashed, the flat expression on the agent's face as she says, "We're here to investigate a charge of child abuse." Can you imagine? Something like a kick in the stomach with a little horror movie thrown in. Then imagine them reading the report; questioning you, your spouse, your pediatrician, your neighbors; walking from room to room inspecting your house, opening cabinets and the refrigerator looking for adequate food; taking your child, without you, to the doctor to be examined. Telling you that, worst case scenario, he could end up in foster care. _Can you imagine?!_

As I've said on here about a million times now, it was my neighbor who reported us. My healing didn't really even begin until two years later when we finally couldn't take seeing her disgusting self-righteous face one more day and moved.

Please see that sometimes the family is doing NOTHING wrong and the innocent I'm-just-trying-to-help phone call can be the first step toward a huge trauma. Some of you don't seem to be getting this.


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## mikes_becky (May 7, 2007)

In the vein of reporting things one isn't sure about...

When my oldest son was 3, we were out at dinner at a Lone Star Steakhouse-- myself and husband, our 1YO daughter, and my father. During the grownup conversation, we didn't notice that our 3YO had turned around in the booth and was pitching French fries at the people at the booth behind ours. When the man pointed it out (very nicely), we were very apologetic and my husband took James out of the restaurant to "discuss" the incident with him (NOT the first incident of bad behavior that evening). What he did was, he took him out front, in full view of the public, got up in his face, and yelled at him. Was it dramatic? Undoubtedly. Was it abuse? Absolutely not. It was a lot of the "THAT BEHAVIOR IS UNACCEPTABLE... YOU WILL NOT BEHAVE THAT WAY, AM I CLEAR" stuff that we often say, except louder and under stress. No name-calling, no cursing.

Some "well-intentioned" onlooking woman decided to intervene. She started yelling at my husband and trying to confront him about the way he was talking to our son. He dodged and ignored her and brought James back into the restaurant, where he behaved like an angel for the remainder of the evening.

Which was a good thing, because the cops showed up at our table about ten minutes later. Yes, in the middle of Lone Star Steakhouse. They told us they had a complaint that a man was abusing a child in front of the restaurant. My husband accompanied them outside, where he explained his philosophy of parenting and, by his description, bored them to death until they decided the complaint was frivolous and let him go.

Here is what the woman saw: A 5'10" red-faced man in a military-type crew cut getting up in the face of an adorable three-foot-tall blond preschooler, speaking in a raised, angry voice. Based on that, she made assumptions about our parenting and our son's need for help-- the same way people on this board are extrapolating how other parents must be behaving generally based on them yelling at their kids getting into a van. So she called THE POLICE in an effort to "save" our son.

The reality is that neither myself or my husband has ever raised so much as a finger to any of our children.... that we rarely even yell at them, which is why my husband pulled out the yelling in that instance-- because he knew it would be highly effective. That we have a very loving home and spend lots of time together having family pizza parties on the family room floor while watching kiddie movies. That our kids show compassion and love for each other because that is what is modeled to them-- to the point where people frequently ask me, "do your kids EVER fight?"

My point is that you can see examples of bad moments in parenting all over the place, but you should never assume that the screen-shot you're seeing actually represents the whole movie, or even a whole scene in the movie.

A friend of mine, who is a loving and deeply thoughtful parent, has a 5YO son with severe eczema she has been trying to treat in every possible way since the day he was born. He is also very thin, for other medical reasons, and has open sores from the eczema. She literally lives in a constant low-level state of fear that someone will call CPS on her because of the way her son looks. This is not a good way to have to live-- in fear of well-intentioned meddlers.

Would I ever call CPS? Absolutely I would... I have a neighbor who I believed was mentally ill and whose parenting I felt, over a series of months, was sketchy at best. The reason I *didn't* call was because I talked to his daughter's teacher and she told me she'd already called, and they had paid several visits and were involved. I think people should get involved if they have solid reasons to.... but should think twice if it's, as I said before, a screen-shot. IMHO.

-Rebecca


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

I find it very ironic to see here, when those 'horrible mainstream' parents could be deciding to call everytime they hear of an unvaxxed child or a 3 yr old that's not weaned, or a hyperemetic pregnant woman using cannabis to control her vomiting, uc or homebirthing, or the myriad of other things _Mothering_ regularly covers that the 'mainstream' culture finds so shocking.

People feel powerful when they create drama, but destroying a family to fulfill attention-whoring needs is pretty pitiful. I am NOT addressing this to any one person. I think it's relatively common to a varying extent, though, and my first thought when someone brings up the 'should I call?' posts. If you need to call, it should be obvious enough not to waste time yapping on a messageboard about it.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
If you need to call, it should be obvious enough not to waste time yapping on a messageboard about it.

I entirely agree. As much as I've "defended" some CPS systems above, I will never suggest that intrusive intervention should be called unless your pretty darn tootin' sure that a child is in imminent and substantive risk/danger.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
I find it very ironic to see here, when those 'horrible mainstream' parents could be deciding to call everytime they hear of an unvaxxed child or a 3 yr old that's not weaned, or a hyperemetic pregnant woman using cannabis to control her vomiting, uc or homebirthing, or the myriad of other things _Mothering_ regularly covers that the 'mainstream' culture finds so shocking.

People feel powerful when they create drama, but destroying a family to fulfill attention-whoring needs is pretty pitiful. I am NOT addressing this to any one person. I think it's relatively common to a varying extent, though, and my first thought when someone brings up the 'should I call?' posts. If you need to call, it should be obvious enough not to waste time yapping on a messageboard about it.









:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I'm subbing so I can come back and find this thread when I have more time, and finish it later.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Its been covered, but I wouldn't call either. As far as the friend with the CIO issue, I may offer advice or tips as a *suggestion* to help, being a good friend. But I'd never assume that my way was teh only way to do things.

Calling can't be undone. Whomever said that... THANKYOU!

My SIL called on us because she was upset that we had a nicer vehiclge andn our life was going ok and hers was falling apart. She is a control freak and the very jealous type. She called and said we lived in filth and there "was a lot of screaming" in our house. The worker showed up and I laughed in his face. I said "Look at my house, does it look dirty?" (his response, No) I said "I have a special needs child, he screams alot. Can't help that." He chuckled too, lol. But he still had to come back one time after that to "check up" on things. It was humiliating! And it made me wary of anyone showing up and second guess everythign for a long time. Its been 3 years and I've only seen my SIL once in that time. We refuse to visit her and its put a HUGE rift in our family. She has apologized a gazillion times, but it doesn't fix it.

Another time a fellow daycare teacher called because I didn't want the other techers medicating my child. I wanted to give her her meds myself. They called and said I was "drugging" my child. *gah!* A quick call to our ped cleared that up. But STILL. Some of the reasons are just so stupid! The worker gave us lost of compliments and said our DD was very smart and that was a direct result of our awesome parenting.

I mean, seriously, I went to school for child developement. I'm not stupid, lmao.

But still, our society is trigger happy when they don't understand another family or don't agree with a parenting method.

To prove my point:
Last summer a friend was outside sitting in our yard. My autistic DS was having a huge meltdown inside (where I was, trying to calm him down). He was screaming, throwing stuff etc. Typical. Some women walked by the house and my friend over heard them saying "And she calls herself a mother, they let anyone parent now days." I was mortified. Now I keep all my windows shut when he is having even a slightly off day because I'm afraid of those types of responces. I feel like a prisoner in my home when I KNOW its not my fault. I did make sure to chat with all my direct neighbors about my DS so they know what is going on when he does melt down. Not all his meltdowns occur in the house. (Or in non-public places)


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

No I wouldn't report for either of those reasons. Yeah that is really crappy parenting but not illegal. I had a really bad parenting moment in public once and I am SO glad no one called CAS (I'm in Canada) on me. Nobody who saw the situation could possibly have known the background and probably thought I was horribly abusive. When my son was 2.5 years old he was the victim of an attempted kidnapping in the public library. Long story, very, very traumatic for me (I am still soooooo protective of all my children and have nightmares over it). When he was 3.5 we were in a store and he hid in the racks. I have always told him not to do that because I need to know where he is at all times. I turned around to look at something and I turned back around to see my son was gone. I freaked out (I'm sure you can understand why) and felt that horrible fear all over again. I started looking around frantically and just when I was going to get them to lock down the store he jumped out with a big smile, "Here I am Mommy!" Well I lost it. I mean completely lost it. I grabbed him by his arms and got right in his face and shook him and screamed, "Don't you ever, EVER, do anything like that again!" I'm sure I looked like a psycho, over-reacting nutjob to everyone there but they didn't know the whole story. I totally could have had someone calling CAS over that.

But on the other side of the fence I am shocked at how severe some people here think abuse needs to be before they'd report. No I don't think just severe abuse should be reported. And I don't believe that a child has a high chance of facing worse abuse in foster care than in a known abusive home. That logic is so skewed it astounds me. So - let me get this straight here. It is better to leave a child in an abusive home because there is a POSSIBILITY he might end up in a worse situation? A small possibility. So a kid who is smacked around (its just spanking right?) on a daily basis and is called a little sh!thead or something like that every day should just be left there? There should be no intervention? You have got to be kidding me. Yes I do a lot of alternative parenting that I worry could get CAS called on me. I am terrified of it actually. I homeschool (very child-led), don't vax, I cloth diaper, I CLW, etc, etc. I know that CAS/CPS can be very, very bad. But not reporting legitimate cases of abuse because of your opinions about the agency is wrong. Have you ever listened to the song Concrete Angel? Maybe you should, because it happens every day.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

In response to the poster who asked for a picture of how child-protection would look without CPS -- since it's a crime to beat, rape, or severely neglect a child, why not call the police? Since it's a crime to have a meth lab, why not call the police? If the police find hard evidence, try the parents in a court of law, by a jury of their peers, just as you would for any crime.

Any parental behavior that doesn't warrant this course of action, isn't a crime and isn't worthy of government attention.

I agree with another poster who said the accused parents should be treated as "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law. Now, sometimes when a person's being tried for a heinous crime, the judge will have that person held without bond until trial. In the same way, when there's *evidence* of really heinous abuse, and the judge thinks there's a strong likelihood the parent will do some horrible thing to the child before s/he can be tried and convicted, I can see the wisdom of holding the parent without bond.

So, if a parent's been convicted (or is being held in jail awaiting trial for a heinous crime of child-abuse), and children don't have another parent or relative who can care for them while the parent's incarcerated -- I can see why there'd be a need for social workers and foster care for these children, just as there's already this need for parents in the criminal justice system for other crimes besides child abuse.

But in all the hundreds of cases where police don't find any hard evidence of criminal activity -- there'd be no long, drawn-out investigations where parents have to keep going to interviews and answering questions, no more foster care simply because the social worker/judge is trying to decide "what's really going on" when a child is still nursing and sleeping with Mom at 6 years of age.

I've also heard police officers have no interest in a "messy house" -- they strictly look for evidence of criminal activity. That's another reason I think criminal child-abuse allegations would be better handled by police. They don't have time to question everyone about "career goals" or ask "who are your friends and how do they benefit your family?"

For anything other than _criminal_ child-abuse allegations -- that's where we should follow the advice of previous posters and look for ways to be a friend and support the family. Period.


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
In response to the poster who asked for a picture of how child-protection would look without CPS -- since it's a crime to beat, rape, or severely neglect a child, why not call the police? Since it's a crime to have a meth lab, why not call the police? If the police find hard evidence, try the parents in a court of law, by a jury of their peers, just as you would for any crime.

Any parental behavior that doesn't warrant this course of action, isn't a crime and isn't worthy of government attention.

I agree with another poster who said the accused parents should be treated as "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law. Now, sometimes when a person's being tried for a heinous crime, the judge will have that person held without bond until trial. In the same way, when there's *evidence* of really heinous abuse, and the judge thinks there's a strong likelihood the parent will do some horrible thing to the child before s/he can be tried and convicted, I can see the wisdom of holding the parent without bond.

So, if a parent's been convicted (or is being held in jail awaiting trial for a heinous crime of child-abuse), and children don't have another parent or relative who can care for them while the parent's incarcerated -- I can see why there'd be a need for social workers and foster care for these children, just as there's already this need for parents in the criminal justice system for other crimes besides child abuse.

But in all the hundreds of cases where police don't find any hard evidence of criminal activity -- there'd be no long, drawn-out investigations where parents have to keep going to interviews and answering questions, no more foster care simply because the social worker/judge is trying to decide "what's really going on" when a child is still nursing and sleeping with Mom at 6 years of age.

I've also heard police officers have no interest in a "messy house" -- they strictly look for evidence of criminal activity. That's another reason I think criminal child-abuse allegations would be better handled by police. They don't have time to question everyone about "career goals" or ask "who are your friends and how do they benefit your family?"

For anything other than _criminal_ child-abuse allegations -- that's where we should follow the advice of previous posters and look for ways to be a friend and support the family. Period.

So true, The times I called CPS they involved sexual abuse/insest and one call was druguse/child neglect (severe). If I would have called the police I know without hesitation that my father would have been in prison years before he actually was. Cps didn't do crap for that situation.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kailey's mom* 
So true, The times I called CPS they involved sexual abuse/insest and one call was druguse/child neglect (severe). If I would have called the police I know without hesitation that my father would have been in prison years before he actually was. Cps didn't do crap for that situation.









I'm so sorry you weren't able to get the help when you needed it. I heard something similar about another sexual abuse case. A childcare teacher discovered a preschool-aged child having _actual sex_ with another preschool-aged child in the restroom.

She informed the director, and the director called CPS. The caseworker claimed this was "normal childhood sexual play," nothing to be concerned about. The teacher was very disturbed by this, and called the police on her own. They couldn't take the case as it was already in CPS jurisdiction, but the officer said if police had been called, there would have definitely been an investigation. For a small child to have this level of awareness of how to have sex, he must have been exposed to things he shouldn't have.

So, I think calling police about suspected child-abuse makes a whole lot more sense than calling CPS. If police don't find evidence of criminal child abuse, they're going to drop it and leave those families alone. If they DO find evidence -- they'll prosecute the abusers, they won't play around.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
Well, you're just wrong. It's hurts A LOT if you are the family wrongly accused.

Can you try for a moment to actually close your eyes and imagine it? Just for one moment . . . don't just read this, try to actually imagine it happening to you. Imagine the knock at the door, the badge flashed, the flat expression on the agent's face as she says, "We're here to investigate a charge of child abuse." Can you imagine? Something like a kick in the stomach with a little horror movie thrown in. Then imagine them reading the report; questioning you, your spouse, your pediatrician, your neighbors; walking from room to room inspecting your house, opening cabinets and the refrigerator looking for adequate food; taking your child, without you, to the doctor to be examined. Telling you that, worst case scenario, he could end up in foster care. _Can you imagine?!_

As I've said on here about a million times now, it was my neighbor who reported us. My healing didn't really even begin until two years later when we finally couldn't take seeing her disgusting self-righteous face one more day and moved.

Please see that sometimes the family is doing NOTHING wrong and the innocent I'm-just-trying-to-help phone call can be the first step toward a huge trauma. Some of you don't seem to be getting this.


Yes, it has happened to me, so I can imagine. I still call when I suspect child abuse. As I said before, calling does not equal filing a report. Again, many times I've called and they've said, that's not reportable, if you have any more information, call back. Again, calling CPS does not equal foster care. As a teacher, I call about once a year, and in all the years only one child has been removed from the home and that was a very severe case. I've had family members removed from the home an in all cases a huge effort was made to place them with other family members. Foster care was the last resort.

Mostly, the families are interviewed, perhaps refered to counceling or support groups, but mostly nothing happens. I've been quite frustrated by CPS, actually. As a teacher there have been times when I've reported sexual abuse that I had no question occured and nothing happened. Last year I called, the counselor called, the principal called, nothing happened. Oh, I mean, sure they probably talked to the mother, but the situation did not change and they were not following up.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I've been quite frustrated by CPS, actually. As a teacher there have been times when I've reported sexual abuse that I had no question occured and nothing happened. Last year I called, the counselor called, the principal called, nothing happened. Oh, I mean, sure they probably talked to the mother, but the situation did not change and they were not following up.

What about calling the police instead? If you're absolutely sure the sexual abuse occurred -- this is something the police would actually prosecute. It's a crime, and the perpetrators need jail-time, not counseling.

See, situations like these make me think CPS is really ineffectual when it comes to dealing with criminal behavior (and that's what child abuse is: criminal behavior, not some distraught mom screaming -- or even cussing -- at her kids outside a store). I agree there's undesirable behavior that doesn't warrant jail-time, but it's not a matter for government intrusion. Those are situations where caring individuals need to befriend those families.

On the one hand, CPS seems ineffectual in dealing with criminal child abuse.On the other hand, CPS workers have power to harass families for things police wouldn't even care about, like a messy house. I think if police were the ones called for suspected child abuse, we'd see more criminal child abusers going to jail, and more children who've been victimized by these people getting the protection they need.

At the same time, we'd see lots of other people being left alone and allowed to continue their lives without harassment. Some friends of mine finally, after some months of harassment, received a letter saying CPS has closed a ridiculous case on them. My friend had been called in for letting her children, ranging in age from 7 to 3, play in the yard while she was in the house, keeping an eye on them through the window.

When the worker arrived, my friend called in her 3yo who was her only child still in the yard, and stood in the doorway to talk to the worker. He was angry that she wouldn't let him into the house; he said he needed to see the children's bedrooms and make sure she had food in the fridge (he didn't explain what that had to do with her letting them play _in their own yard_). She continued to (cordially) refuse him entry (similar to the experience of a pp, the caseworker seemed angry that my friend knew her rights), though she did call all her children to the door so he could look at them and see they were okay.

My friends got a lawyer who handled all communications with CPS for them. At that point, CPS wasn't able to have any direct dealings with my friends, it all had to be done through the lawyer. They did attend one or two interviews with CPS (without their children), accompanied by their lawyer, where they answered various questions. CPS kept pushing for access to the children, and my friends kept refusing. The workers were rather patronizing, saying they "could" get a warrant and force the issue, but they were trying to be "nice."

At one interview, CPS said they had a right to simply go to the children's schools, pull them out of class, and talk to them. Then they asked the names of the children's schools, and found out my friends home-schooled. They were none too happy about that, and kept saying it would be so much "easier" for my friends if they just cooperated and let them have the children for an interview -- that they could go before a judge and have something "court-ordered," etcetera.

My friends stood their ground, and it's finally over. None of the threats ever materialized. But you can bet it was still very stressful to my friends, wondering what might happen.

While I realize the pp's are right who say that calling CPS doesn't necessarily mean the kids will be taken and put in foster-care -- I agree more strongly with the pp's who say a call can result in untold trauma to the family, as it has for my friends. No, they haven't been destroyed by the call -- but they've been badly hurt.

That's why if I saw something that concerned me, I'd ask myself, "Is this criminal abuse (i.e. beating, sexual abuse, severe neglect)?" If it was, I'd call the police, not CPS. If it wasn't sufficient to warrant police intervention -- I wouldn't call anyone. I'd just see how I could be a friend to the family -- or butt out.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oh, in contrast to the CPS case I just shared about -- another friend recently didn't realize her 3yo was outside until she looked out and saw him in the middle of the street. She rushed out and brought him in, and some lady sitting in a car thought my friend might have abducted the little boy, that he might not really be her son.

Thankfully, the lady called the police and not CPS. The officer wasn't at all intrusive, and certainly didn't invite himself in. He just wanted to make sure that little boy really belonged in that house. My friend's 3yo was upstairs taking a bath, so the officer was content to look at a family photo, and could see the 3yo in the picture matched the description given by the lady.

My friend never heard from anyone again.

Now, I'm sure if there were repeated calls to the police, reporting that same 3yo standing alone in the middle of the street, the police would probably feel concerned about possible neglect. They might start watching the house; if they suspected drug use they'd get a warrant and search the house.

But, over one isolated incident, police give parents the benefit of the doubt. They don't ask to see the refrigerator, or get offended if they're not invited in. They check to make sure all's well, maybe say something cautionary to the parent, and move on because they have work to do.

In my experience, police officers are so bogged down with work they prefer not to fill out any paperwork if it's not absolutely necessary. They have better uses for their time. So, if in question, call the police -- not CPS


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

If child protection was made explicitely and entirely the domain of the police their approach would likely change. Now, they can walk away because they figure CPS will catch it if it's a chronic problem - the risk is not as great as it would be if they were the final arbiters.

If the police were entirely responsible for child protection, there would still need to be some support and foster system in place for those cases where children were removed.

How good a job have the police done wrt domestic violence?

The examples you cite are awful. I don't know where you live, but that's a messed up system or you've encountered some particularly bad workers.

All the stories I've read on MDC point to the crux of the problem - human beings making judgement calls. There are going to be mistakes made, whether it's to not protect when it's necessary, or to over-protect. Both have awful consequences.

My head is swimming at the number of jurisdictions where the workers apparently have the time to care about parenting decisions like homeschooling and cosleeping. And I'd say speaking angrily to a child or CIO fall into that whole parenting stream. Sure, we all have varying opinions about what's *optimal* for children (ie children need to be attached versus they need to be independent), but child protection shouldn't extend it's reach to this, and should stay within the domains of explicitely harmful.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
My head is swimming at the number of jurisdictions where the workers apparently have the time to care about parenting decisions like homeschooling and cosleeping. And I'd say speaking angrily to a child or CIO fall into that whole parenting stream. Sure, we all have varying opinions about what's *optimal* for children (ie children need to be attached versus they need to be independent), but child protection shouldn't extend it's reach to this, and should stay within the domains of explicitely harmful.

That's why I recommend calling the police when I see actual criminal behavior directed at children (or anyone) -- and minding my own business (or just trying to be a friend) when there are lesser issues.

I prefer our justice system's approach of considering the accused "innocent until proven guilty." In my indirect experience, if CPS workers respond to a call, they want to invade the accused person's home and conduct a "thorough search" whether they have sufficient evidence for a warrant or not. They don't take kindly to ANYone who refuses them entry.

Police are compelled to inform the accused of their rights, but CPS workers seem to have no such mandate. I've heard of cases where a child answered the door, and the workers just pushed past the child and let themselves in. Once they were in, they had free reign and the parents couldn't make them leave 'til they were "done."

Maybe you're right that police would be more concerned if they were the last line of defense. I'm still inclined to think they'd give people like my friend who -- gasp! -- let her kids play _in their own yard_ the benefit of the doubt, rather than nosily pushing to see the kids' bedrooms and check the refrigerator. I actually think if police got a call that children were playing _in their own yard_, they wouldn't even follow that up. My friend's children never even LEFT their yard -- how could this by any stretch be considered neglect?

I can't see police ever changing their approach to the extent of becoming as invasive and petty as CPS. And I already mentioned there'd still be some need for foster-care, for children of parents convicted of criminal abuse, who don't have other family members able to care for them -- just as children of parents convicted of other crimes sometimes need foster-care.

I just think the "innocent 'til proven guilty" stance would protect children of parents who _haven't_ been convicted of criminal child abuse, and actually haven't done anything they _could_ be convicted of in a court of law, from being wrongfully removed from their homes. Such as the breastfeeding 6yo who spent, what was it?, 6 months in foster-care?

I can't see any mom being convicted in a criminal court for extended breastfeeding -- so I don't think cases like the one above could happen if accused parents weren't _treated_ as guilty 'til they were _proved_ guilty. CPS expects the accused to jump through hoops to prove their innocence -- but the criminal justice system puts all the burden on the accusers. That just seems more fair, and more respectful of human rights (and human privacy), to me.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
CPS expects the accused to jump through hoops to prove their innocence -- but the criminal justice system puts all the burden on the accusers. That just seems more fair, and more respectful of human rights (and human privacy), to me.

Absolutely. This is one of the changes that I would love to see happen within the system.


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## anarchamama (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Where the children were removed for AP reasons only (not ugly divorces and MILs) by CPS and put into foster care? That which everyone is so worried about on here? Do you have some links?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm candadian, but in states where midwifery is illegal, is it not automaticlaly reportable if someone finds out (ie: you transfer?) that you were trying to have a homebirth or deliver a baby at home?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anarchamama* 
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm candadian, but in states where midwifery is illegal, is it not automaticlaly reportable if someone finds out (ie: you transfer?) that you were trying to have a homebirth or deliver a baby at home?

It's not automatic by any means. It would be left up to the worker on the case I would think.

I know of people here who have been reported for UC.

-Angela


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## anarchamama (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
So, are there no circumstances that you feel warrant "butting in?" What if you overheard a man beating his wife? Or his dog? Or his child? Is the child less deserving of protection because I don't normally know how he parents?

"Well, he seems like a good husband normally, I'm sure she deserves that beating. I'm not one to judge. I'll just put my earplugs in like a good neighbor."

And when that kid ends up dead, then I guess I'll sleep soundly, because at least I never made any accusations that could cause him to be torn from his father's loving arms.

ETA:
1,500 children _die every year from child abuse and neglect_. That is just over 4 fatalities every day.
http://www.childhelp.org/resources/l...ter/statistics

The most dangerous time? The first year of life.

The website is great - they also have a toll-free anonymous hotline parents can call when they feel they're about to hurt their child or are stressed. How about having that number on hand next time you see a parent being violent to their child?

Unfortunatly here in canada at least kids also have a nasty habit of dying while in care of the state. Now I don't think there are never tmes when state intervention is neccassary, I have a few friends who were in and out of foster care and say it was better than the alternative (though not good by any standard). Unfortunatly I also have friends who are young/poor/not white, who are afraid to parent more gently becuase they have experience with fear repercussion from the state. So it's adouble edged sword, that is to say I think there should be lots of resources for parents and a focus on familes and children should be aprehended as a last resort. I do not believe the OP examples warrent investigation both becuae I don't believe they are illegal and because they are not bad enough for state intervention IMHO.

I am uncomfortable giving the state powers without very good reason, there are lots of things people here at MDC do which at one time were or still are illegal which I do not think are grounds for intervention. So while I don't ever swear at my kids I really don't think it even warrents investigation.
The provincial government launched two reviews into the child-welfare system this week, after police laid murder charges in the disappearance of five-year-old Phoenix Sinclair, who had spent most of her life in and out of the care of Child and Family Services.

In Manitoba:
The case raised concern about the state of the child-welfare system generally. Three children have died while in the care of Child and Family Services agencies in the past year. Another six children who died last year had received assistance from CFS in the past.

In Alberta:
CBC News EDMONTON - The province will now release the reviews done when a child who has had contact with Children's Services dies. "We do want to make sure that our processes are transparent," Children's Services spokeswoman Jody Korchinski said. "But, as well, we do have a responsibility to the children that are in our care and protecting their privacy and their rights." Until this change - brought about in part by the death of 13-year-old Nina Courtepatte, who was found dead on a golf course in April - the ministry wouldn't release that a child in care had died, how the case was handled or any recommendations made. Even relatives weren't allowed to see the results of any investigation. "I really understand that we need privacy laws," Liberal children's services critic Weslyn Mather said. "They're necessary to protect the privacy and rights of children. But not to cover up information to protect children's services." When Nina Courtepatte died - five people, unrelated to her, have been charged with first-degree murder, aggravated sexual assault and kidnapping - Children's Services wouldn't say whether they had ever had contact with her. Her parents had last seen her April 1, last spoke to her late on April 3 and her body was found April 4. Nina was not reported missing until two days after she was found on the fourth fairway of the Edmonton Springs Golf Resort, two days after police had released descriptions in hopes of identifying her.


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## anarchamama (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
I pretty much agree with this. In most cases kids should be kept with family members either pparents, or other relatives, but I don't see what that has to do with calling CPS. CPS agrees with you, too.

I've called seven times and 6 times the child remained in the home and wasn't taken away from the parents for longer than the interview. In the seventh case, it was very extreme and many, many people had called. I call when I have a hunch because if there is just one call on a family, they just "check in" with them, which has even happened with my family, so I don't take it lightly. But, if several people have had a hunch, there might be something going on.

In several cases when I have called, they have not even taken a report. I encourage people to call if they suspect abuse and let CPS decide if it is a valid "reportable" concern. For example, one time I called because I knew a 9 year old who was left home to babysit his 12 month old brother for 8 hours daily in the summer. This particular 9 year old was very immature and not equipped for this, but they said it wasn't reportable unless there was more known danger and they sent me a pamphlet on babysitting guidlines. When you call, the don't immediatly make a report. First, they ask you to tell them the situation, then if it is reportable they start asking for the names and addresses of the people involved.

In many cases, I feel like they haven't done enough. I get a letter back a few weeks later saying that they found nothing which is crazy to me. Another example, a 12 year old girl whose mother had moved away with her boyfriend and left the daughter in the care of the daughters boyfriend who was 21. CPS told me that this boyfriend was actually the child's gaurdian. Ok, she's sleeping with her guardian! What kind of power dynamic is that? They said she seemed mature for her age.

So, in general, I believe that it is usually best for the child to remain with family. I call CPS when I suspect abuse.

I do find it odd that on TAO right now there is a thread that if you hear a man and a woman fighting and you suspect violence you have a moral obligation to call the police, but with children and parents we should butt out because we don't know the situation. I figure that whatever a parent is willing to do in the parking lot is 100% nicer/kinder/gentler than what is going on in the privacy of the home.

But you are a teacher of said kids, no? I would be far more inclined to take seriosuly concerns of other adults who are in regular contact/trust relationships with children (or parents) than someone who witness one bad parenting moment. Totally different situation IMO. And I think it's wierd that everyone is saying that people who say they are hesitant to call are seeing startved/beaten children rolling around an hemming and hawing, the OP gave very specific situations to which many people have said they wouldn't call. She didn't say I'm a teacher and a kid in my class told me her dad beats her. It was I saw someone swearing at their kids. They are just saying getting intervention is serious for everyone and not something to be done whenever someone is mean to their kids.


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

Urgh.

I just read through most of this thread while rocking my 6 week old foster son to sleep.

To the OP: as some have said, feel free to call, it isn't *your* job to decide if it is abuse, if it is totally non-reportable, *nothing* will be done, the family in question will never hear about it. But, as many have pointed out, we *don't* know the full situation. When my foster kids go back to their mom, I hope to h*ll if she is swearing at them like that in a parking lot, someone calls her in -- she has serious anger managment problems, and that would be an indicator to the social worker that she is backsliding, and the kids are probably in real danger again.

And, as a foster parent, I've got to say, I'm SOOO freaking tired of hearing how kids are better off in abusive homes than they are in foster care. There are many many good and loving foster home in this country, and yes, a few really crappy ones. If you want to make a difference in the system, why don't *you* become a foster parent? Seriously. I've heard *all* the excuses everyone has for why they could never be a foster parent (usually said to me right after telling me how wonderful it is that I am one), and I'm sick of it.

Sorry. Rant over now







:


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gus'smama* 
Urgh.

I just read through most of this thread while rocking my 6 week old foster son to sleep.

To the OP: as some have said, feel free to call, it isn't *your* job to decide if it is abuse, if it is totally non-reportable, *nothing* will be done, the family in question will never hear about it. But, as many have pointed out, we *don't* know the full situation. When my foster kids go back to their mom, I hope to h*ll if she is swearing at them like that in a parking lot, someone calls her in -- she has serious anger managment problems, and that would be an indicator to the social worker that she is backsliding, and the kids are probably in real danger again.

And, as a foster parent, I've got to say, I'm SOOO freaking tired of hearing how kids are better off in abusive homes than they are in foster care. There are many many good and loving foster home in this country, and yes, a few really crappy ones. If you want to make a difference in the system, why don't *you* become a foster parent? Seriously. I've heard *all* the excuses everyone has for why they could never be a foster parent (usually said to me right after telling me how wonderful it is that I am one), and I'm sick of it.

Sorry. Rant over now







:


Well, it was quite a good rant.







Although I am sorry we have to have such conversation at all.

The statistics are clear: Children are killed at a far greater clip at the hands of bio parents than are killed in foster care.

More childre are sexually abused by parents and boyfriends of their mothers than in foster homes.

if those stats are incorrect, I would like to read more.

Children are at risk-- they are vulnerable and little. Even a foster parent can harm, no doubt about that.

But kids are most often killed by their parents. Period.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
I wouldn't call CPS in either case.

me neither. You don't really know if the kids are maybe watching a movie inside while the parents relax outside, or playing. and maybe she was having a bad day and said those words. I think it's definitely over reacting and it would most likely create many problems and trauma for the children to involve CPS.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gus'smama* 
And, as a foster parent, I've got to say, I'm SOOO freaking tired of hearing how kids are better off in abusive homes than they are in foster care.

I certainly don't think children are better off being abused. I just think if it's not abuse the parents would be convicted of, by a jury of their peers, in a court of law -- it doesn't warrant taking the child from the parents and placing the child in foster care.

If accused parents were treated as "innocent 'til proven guilty(according to criminal justice standards)," maybe there wouldn't be such a shortage of foster homes. No one would be shunted off to foster care based on the decision of one judge. If a jury of peers agree that the parents are criminally abusive, and the children need foster-care placement, this seems much more likely to be a fair decision.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
What about calling the police instead? If you're absolutely sure the sexual abuse occurred -- this is something the police would actually prosecute. It's a crime, and the perpetrators need jail-time, not counseling.

See, situations like these make me think CPS is really ineffectual when it comes to dealing with criminal behavior (and that's what child abuse is: criminal behavior, not some distraught mom screaming -- or even cussing -- at her kids outside a store). I agree there's undesirable behavior that doesn't warrant jail-time, but it's not a matter for government intrusion. Those are situations where caring individuals need to befriend those families.

On the one hand, CPS seems ineffectual in dealing with criminal child abuse.On the other hand, CPS workers have power to harass families for things police wouldn't even care about, like a messy house. I think if police were the ones called for suspected child abuse, we'd see more criminal child abusers going to jail, and more children who've been victimized by these people getting the protection they need.

At the same time, we'd see lots of other people being left alone and allowed to continue their lives without harassment. Some friends of mine finally, after some months of harassment, received a letter saying CPS has closed a ridiculous case on them. My friend had been called in for letting her children, ranging in age from 7 to 3, play in the yard while she was in the house, keeping an eye on them through the window.

When the worker arrived, my friend called in her 3yo who was her only child still in the yard, and stood in the doorway to talk to the worker. He was angry that she wouldn't let him into the house; he said he needed to see the children's bedrooms and make sure she had food in the fridge (he didn't explain what that had to do with her letting them play _in their own yard_). She continued to (cordially) refuse him entry (similar to the experience of a pp, the caseworker seemed angry that my friend knew her rights), though she did call all her children to the door so he could look at them and see they were okay.

My friends got a lawyer who handled all communications with CPS for them. At that point, CPS wasn't able to have any direct dealings with my friends, it all had to be done through the lawyer. They did attend one or two interviews with CPS (without their children), accompanied by their lawyer, where they answered various questions. CPS kept pushing for access to the children, and my friends kept refusing. The workers were rather patronizing, saying they "could" get a warrant and force the issue, but they were trying to be "nice."

At one interview, CPS said they had a right to simply go to the children's schools, pull them out of class, and talk to them. Then they asked the names of the children's schools, and found out my friends home-schooled. They were none too happy about that, and kept saying it would be so much "easier" for my friends if they just cooperated and let them have the children for an interview -- that they could go before a judge and have something "court-ordered," etcetera.

My friends stood their ground, and it's finally over. None of the threats ever materialized. But you can bet it was still very stressful to my friends, wondering what might happen.

While I realize the pp's are right who say that calling CPS doesn't necessarily mean the kids will be taken and put in foster-care -- I agree more strongly with the pp's who say a call can result in untold trauma to the family, as it has for my friends. No, they haven't been destroyed by the call -- but they've been badly hurt.

That's why if I saw something that concerned me, I'd ask myself, "Is this criminal abuse (i.e. beating, sexual abuse, severe neglect)?" If it was, I'd call the police, not CPS. If it wasn't sufficient to warrant police intervention -- I wouldn't call anyone. I'd just see how I could be a friend to the family -- or butt out.

I agree with every single word.


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## kirk_heidi (Apr 26, 2006)

Speaking from the point of someone who has had CPS called on them, I think that what other people have said about being absolutely sure there is REAL abuse and not just your opinion of what should or shouldn't be done is really important. I have had CPS called on my 4 times for idiotic things. Every time the charges have been unfounded. I have 2 special needs children and outsiders have no idea what life is like so when they see something they don't like they jump to the conclusion that I am a bad parent. They don't see the 10 dr. appts. a week that I take them to or the $480 a month we pay for treatments that aren't covered by insurance that may or may not work. By looking at my children you can't tell that they are disabled so people just assume that I am a bad parent because of their actions. I even had a therapist call them because one of them hit me so I was investigated for neglectful supervision. HELLO!!! I was right there when he hit me so obviusly I was doing my job!

It is not a day in the park to have CPS involved inyour life and the stress of having to deal with them can make the family environment much worse. My son started talking about killing himself after the CPS was called last time. YOu should definitely be careful what you call them for.

Just a word about CPS too. I have reported serious cases of abuse in which they didn't even respond. My children's school told me that they have had the same situation happen to them. If they spend all their time responding to cases of cussing or allowing a child to CIO, then they don't have time to deal with serious abuse like physical and sexual abuse. Be very careful what you decide to do.

Also, a previous poster mentioned that they can pick at little things like a messy house. I am in my first trimester and I am sick alot so when they came the house wasn't susy homemaker like but it was by no means a danger to my children. There were just some blankets and toys on the floor and dishes in the sink. They said my house was messy and needed to be rechecked. They can and sometimes do whatever they want even if it is unwarranted. Like I said, be very careful.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kirk_heidi* 
It is not a day in the park to have CPS involved inyour life and the stress of having to deal with them can make the family environment much worse. My son started talking about killing himself after the CPS was called last time. YOu should definitely be careful what you call them for.

Yes!







I'm so sorry about what you and your dear ones have been through. When people say things like, "Don't decide for yourself if something's reportable: just call it in, whatever it is, and let CPS decide" -- I seriously wonder what reality they're living in, that they don't even consider how a call like this can impact a family.

And what you share, which I quote below, about the "messy house" issue, is just one more case for calling the police, not CPS, if there's actual criminal abuse (the ONLY abuse that warrants ANY kind of a call in my opinion). Police will kick butt when it comes to protecting children who are being beaten, sexually assaulted, or severely neglected and malnourished -- and they'll seriously not care about clutter.

I've had police at our messy house a few times (we've had an attempted break-in and a couple of other incidents over the past few years) and they truly seemed oblivious to the mess, even though we have small children who are "living in it," so to speak. Police have other, more important, fish to fry.

Quote:

Also, a previous poster mentioned that they can pick at little things like a messy house. I am in my first trimester and I am sick alot so when they came the house wasn't susy homemaker like but it was by no means a danger to my children. There were just some blankets and toys on the floor and dishes in the sink. They said my house was messy and needed to be rechecked. They can and sometimes do whatever they want even if it is unwarranted. Like I said, be very careful.
That's just ridiculous! I honestly wonder if there's really as much severe child abuse as people keep saying: if there was, WHY would CPS even care about going back to "recheck" and make sure the dishes get washed and the toys and blankets picked up??? Is this worth YOUR tax money? It sure isn't worth OURS!


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## MamaNosBest (Feb 20, 2007)

*I certainly don't think children are better off being abused. I just think if it's not abuse the parents would be convicted of, by a jury of their peers, in a court of law -- it doesn't warrant taking the child from the parents and placing the child in foster care.
*

But where are the kids to stay during the typical 18-months/ 2years until a case goes to trial?


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
So, it's better for a three year old girl to keep living with her sexually abusive father, in the name of family preservation? A mother who's selling her daughter on the Internet? Is that realling throwing them into the lion's den, to remove them from that home?

I don't know about where you live, but where I live, there's such an emphasis on family preservation that children are routinely returned home...and then killed a short time later.

Neither is the solution. The abusive father can be kept away from the child without foster care in most cases. They need to place children with other family members without making the kids go into foster care for 30-60 days first. Foster care should be reserved for kids that don't have other family members and are in immediate danger.

Edited to add: hopefully this would free the system up a bit to keep better tabs on the kids in foster care. The agency we were going to go through does weekly visits..and that's just the tip of the iceberg.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNosBest* 
*I certainly don't think children are better off being abused. I just think if it's not abuse the parents would be convicted of, by a jury of their peers, in a court of law -- it doesn't warrant taking the child from the parents and placing the child in foster care.
*

But where are the kids to stay during the typical 18-months/ 2years until a case goes to trial?

When a parent's being tried for criminal abuse, the court definitely should take precautions to make sure the abuser has no access to the child -- or ANY children, for that matter.

In the criminal courts right now -- people being tried for really heinous crimes are usually held in jail without bond, until trial. For less heinous (but still criminal) crimes, the defendant may be released until trial, that's true. In these cases I think there needs to be a restraining order so the defendant has no access to the child. And, of course, many criminals disregard restraining orders, so child and caregivers may need to be relocated to a safe place, where the abuser can't find them.

I think the court's first choice should be to have the child stay with the non-abusive parent, if the other parent really isn't abusive and can be trusted not to allow the abuser any access. Second choice should be a safe family member or family friend, who has a bond with the child. Third choice should be foster care.

See, the system I'm advocating wouldn't "do away" with foster-care altogether: it would limit foster-care placements to situations where parents have committed abuse they could actually go to jail for (and where children have no safe relative or family friend to care for them). I don't know the current percentages as to how many children now in foster-care, are there because parents have committed crimes against them -- and how many are there while CPS "interviews" and "investigates" and "deliberates" over whether there really is a case or not.

I do know that at least SOME foster-care placements are of the latter kind. I've even heard of overweight children being taken from their parents so CPS can see if the child loses weight in foster care. And, of course, the 6yo already mentioned who was taken because of breastfeeding and co-sleeping. Obviously a parent can't go to jail for having an overweight child, or for breastfeeding or co-sleeping. So, in my system, those cases wouldn't even BE cases, and those homes would never be disrupted.


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## MamaNosBest (Feb 20, 2007)

*Neither is the solution. The abusive father can be kept away from the child without foster care in most cases. They need to place children with other family members without making the kids go into foster care for 30-60 days first. Foster care should be reserved for kids that don't have other family members and are in immediate danger.*

Fwiw, in court we very, very seldom see children that have gone into foster care when there was an alternate, safe family caregiver available. Very frequently both parents are abusive, or one parent is abusive (mothers as often as fathers) and the spouse is in denial and protects them, so the child can't stay with the presumed nonabuser.

Remember, we're talking about (if you want a jury trial for, say, severe neglect) in many cases 2 YEARS (plus appeals) before a sentence is reached.


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## MamaNosBest (Feb 20, 2007)

hey, cross post!

*Second choice should be a safe family member or family friend, who has a bond with the child. .... child and caregivers may need to be relocated to a safe place, where the abuser can't find them.*

How likely is it that an aunt, say, is going to be able to drop her own life, spouse, job, children's security, etc., to go into relocation for two years?

I do see what you're saying, but it's just not as simple, I don't think, as you're trying to make it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNosBest* 
Remember, we're talking about (if you want a jury trial for, say, severe neglect) in many cases 2 YEARS (plus appeals) before a sentence is reached.

Yes, I agree that we can't wait 'til the criminal abuser's actually _convicted_ before protecting the child. I don't want to be redundant -- but I'll just say, again, that I'm advocating for a system where criminal child-abusers are prosecuted -- but where any parental behavior that _wouldn't_ warrant criminal prosecution, wouldn't be scrutinized in the first place.

For those who think coercion is the ONLY way to help dysfunctional parents: I challenge you to think about how YOU'VE grown as a person, and as a parent, over the years. Who's had the most impact on YOU? People who've modeled positive behavior, who've listened to you and offered their counsel and help in response to your needs? Or people who've threatened and forced you to comply with what they think is best?

We can do a tremendous amount to help non-criminal people who are simply struggling as parents right now. Leave "the system" for the criminals: the child-beaters, the molesters and rapists, the drug-dealers and addicts, and the otherwise neglectful individuals who let their children go hungry or stay alone in the house at really young ages. I really can't "help" someone who thinks it's okay to leave a 5yo in charge of a 3yo for an entire weekend.

But I CAN be a friend and help someone who's totally losing it, cussing her kids out in a store parking lot. I can identify with "totally losing it." There's help for that mom outside the system. Really.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

But I CAN be a friend and help someone who's totally losing it, cussing her kids out in a store parking lot. I can identify with "totally losing it." There's help for that mom outside the system. Really.

Just be absolutely sure she won't hurt you & yours as she is hurting her kids. Jusy check out current events regarding the mother's day brawl over a crying child. It's not a huge leap from telling the kids to fuck off, and punching you one in the nose.

It's not quite as simple as all that. I think a lot of people go into social work and foster care hoping to help others. Sure, it's system filled with crap and red tape...but how magical are you that you can change this person's life in the span of time it takes you to get your groceries packed into your car?

You also have to consider how disrespectful your 'do- gooder' attitude might be be felt by the 'bad' mom you're trying to save in this parking lot.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNosBest* 
hey, cross post!

*Second choice should be a safe family member or family friend, who has a bond with the child. .... child and caregivers may need to be relocated to a safe place, where the abuser can't find them.*

How likely is it that an aunt, say, is going to be able to drop her own life, spouse, job, children's security, etc., to go into relocation for two years?

I do see what you're saying, but it's just not as simple, I don't think, as you're trying to make it.

I'm not trying to over-simplify. There are cases where foster-care's the ONLY safe option for the child, and I'm definitely not opposed to using it then.

Also, if the aunt, say, can't relocate but is willing to be vigilant for the child's safety, and call police at any sign that the abuser's disregarding the restraining order -- maybe in some cases this could be a safe arrangement.

But if the ONLY way to keep the child safe is through foster-care placement, I'm all for it.


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## veiledexpressions (May 24, 2004)

Quote:

And, as a foster parent, I've got to say, I'm SOOO freaking tired of hearing how kids are better off in abusive homes than they are in foster care. There are many many good and loving foster home in this country, and yes, a few really crappy ones. If you want to make a difference in the system, why don't *you* become a foster parent? Seriously. I've heard *all* the excuses everyone has for why they could never be a foster parent (usually said to me right after telling me how wonderful it is that I am one), and I'm sick of it.
I know that there are good fost homes,and that's spectacular.Sadly, there are many who do it for the extra cash.Growing up, one of my best friend's mom was a foster mom. I spent the night there frequently.She took special needs kids. She was HORRIBLE. She would scream at the child and call him a "f***ing spaz" as he pounded his head on the wall.She's swear at them, hold their mouths shut when they would cry,and one day, I saw her sticking a boy's head under the faucet in the tub because he wouldn't hold still while she rinsed his hair (face up). I told my dad several times,and he didn't want to get involved. Finally, I reported them at the age of 11. I actually told a teacher, who made the call. I don't know exactly what happened, as I stopped going back. That woman scared me. She wasn't mean to me, but she was horrible to those kids.

This sort of thing scares me. God forbid someone with a child like mine is wrongly accused,and she ends up in a home like that.Stories of non-verbal, severely disabled children being neglected, or even killed scare the hell out of me. It's a catch 22. I just believe the proceedings need to be handled quickly and accurately.

I , personally, would love to foster parent. My husband has an issue with it. My daugher is severely disabled,and will require full care her whole life. He believes that even when our children are grown , we will have our hands full with our princess







He may be right, but I can't help but have the desire to properly care for foster children with special needs.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
You also have to consider how disrespectful your 'do- gooder' attitude might be be felt by the 'bad' mom you're trying to save in this parking lot.

I'm seriously too occupied with my own family to be all that concerned if I hear a mom in a parking-lot screaming at her kids. I confine my "do-gooder" attitude to helping people who are already in my life, who have questions about my AP/GD lifestyle, who are receptive to hearing what I have to say.

My recommendation to help the mom in the parking-lot is directed to those with such an excess of energy and outrage, that they'd take down the license # and contemplate calling CPS on the stressed-out mom. I'm not saying I'D intervene in that situation myself -- I'm just saying I'd intervene rather than call her in.

When I said I could be a friend and help someone like that, as opposed to helping someone who abandons her small children for an entire weekend, I was making the argument that we need to differentiate between sub-optimal parenting and criminal child-abuse.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And seriously, I think WE need to make that distinction ourselves, rather than calling it in and "letting CPS decide." If you disagree, you seriously need to re-read some of the posts by moms who've had CPS in their lives, not because they were abusive, but because some neighbor saw something they weren't "sure" about, and chose to just call it in and "let CPS decide."


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## veiledexpressions (May 24, 2004)

I also want to add my story. I was taken away from my mother at the age of six because of a call.

In my case, it was needed. I was living in filth. I'm not talking about some crumbs on the floor, laundry under or on the bed, toilet needs a scrubbing, type filth.I'm talking about a foot of garbage throughout the house. There were maggots in it,and not just in the kitchen. There were at least 8 cats running around. The fridge had NO edible food in it. The sink was full of dishes and flies. I remember feeling proud that I had cleared a small path in the living room.

Our clothing was dirty,and we were left alone often. I kept my baby brother alive by feeding him cow's milk in a bottle. I got the milk from a very very nice owner of a small store down the street. He said he was putting it on my mom's "tab"(of course it was never paid). I was also underweight,and scared of the yelling going on in the apartment building.

Strange people would come and go,and I know now, that the entire complex was full of cocaine. It was a major place to buy and sell,and there was some stored in our apartment.

Finally, someone, I don't know who, called the police. We were removed,and placed with my dad,and grandparents. My dad worked 16+ hours a day,and was often gone for business. So, most of the time was spent with my grandparents.

Their home was the antithesis of my mom's. My grandmother was an obsessive cleaner, and very very strict. We were physically punished,there (we hadn't been at my mom's), but overall, the situation was far better than it was before.
So, in some cases, it certainly does good to call. Though, in the cases you mentioned, I don't believe a call is warranted.

Now that I'm an adult, I have a great relationship with my mother. She grew up quickly after that. She now has a great job, beautiful home,and is the best grammy. My oldest loves to spend the night. The call didn't ruin our relationship, in fact, I think it made things better by being a wake up call, and letting everyone get things in order.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

veiledexpressions --

Your situation was clearly, indisputably, a case of criminal behavior: cocaine possession, malnourished children, dangerously unsanitary conditions, and abandonment ... even if there was no CPS, all it would take would be for that storekeeper to call the police about the malnourished, filthy, neglected children.

I'm sure this would have been sufficient evidence for a judge to issue a search-warrant, find the cocaine (as well as the lack of food and dangerous living conditions), and get you and your brother out of there and into your dad's and grandmother's custody.

I'm glad you got the help you needed, and I'm glad you and your mom have such a good relationship now.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

I wish there were more mamas willing to walk by a complete stranger who is obvisouly having a hard time or bad day and SMILE and say something along the lines of "I've been there too" "Yours sounds just like mine somedays" "I know those days, I hope the rest of your day is better".

Half our anxiety as moms is wprrying about "what other people think" when we are out in public. Then you add a child who is having a bad day and who knows how many other events that pile on it and any rational mom can *snap*. You feel an inch tall when everything is happening in public as well.

My children were melting down a few years ago in the grocery store. My DH is a trucker and used to be away for weeks at a time. So I HAD to do everything myself. I was trying my best to keep my patience and it was getting harder and hard. An older woman came up to me and complimented me on my patience and said she remembered when she had days like that. It changed everything. I felt a sigh of relief. I was doing something right. Now I make a point to compliment and support other moms, even strangers, in public. (But don't offer parenting advice, that is probably the last thing a mom wants to hear at that moment, lol)


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kristine233* 
I wish there were more mamas willing to walk by a complete stranger who is obvisouly having a hard time or bad day and SMILE and say something along the lines of "I've been there too" "Yours sounds just like mine somedays" "I know those days, I hope the rest of your day is better".

I really get the impression the people who'd call CPS (about a mom yelling in public), feel so superior to the stressed-out, yelling mom that they'd never DREAM of identifying with her to the point of saying, "I've been there, too." They're too busy thinking, "If THAT'S how she treats her kids in public, she must be a gazillion times worse behind closed doors ... she probably beats them and makes them do slave labor."

In order to identify with others, we have to get off our high-horses and stop feeling like we're better than them. Your community is blessed to have a caring member like you, Kristine. I hope more here will be inspired to follow your example.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I took the train from Portland to Seattle a couple weeks ago with my 4 yo DS. It was just a day trip, 3 hours each way on th train and then about 5 hours in Seattle.
I am pregnant and not as patient as I would like to be.
We were on a city bus in Seattle (which is a really big, busy city!), and I was trying to pay attention to where we needed to get off. Well, DS didn't understand that, and was antsy from the train ride. He was practically dancing in his seat, and nearly falling every 5 seconds! I was getting really stressed, and I was starting to get that "What does everyone else think right now..." feeling that I get during public displays like this one.

Then the kindest elderly woman (my angel!!) looked at my son and started talking to him. She asked me how old he was, and started talking to us. She told my son that if he was really good and would sit still she would give him a treat. (I panicked, my son does not do well with sugar AT ALL!!) But she had a little plastic bag with some pennies in it. She gave them to me and told him that if he stayed in his seat that his Mommy would give him the pennies at the end of the trip.
He was excited, and sat still for the last 5 minutes of our ride. The lady was really interesting, and she and I chatted for the rest of the ride.

She chose to help me instead of judging the woman who is being grouchy with that sweet little boy!!

As I have been following this thread I have repeatedly thought about her. I think if we all took the time to be a little more creative we would realize that we have a lot to offer to a stressed out parent, even if we only see them for five minutes on the bus!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And -- just as I assert that there's hope (outside the CPS system) for the stressed-out moms screaming in parking-lots all over the world --

I want to be fair and add that there's also hope for those who are saying, "Just call CPS about any and all concerns, and 'let them decide' whether or not to pursue the issue."

I actually called CPS on someone when I was 18, judgmental, not a parent, and naively trusting in the "helpfulness" of the system. I'm thankful the person who took the call had sense to see that what I had to say wasn't reportable.

I feel somewhat ashamed that I so unthinkingly would have unleashed the system on a struggling family. But I've grown and certainly wouldn't do that now.

If there's hope for me, there's hope for anyone.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Sure I can. National data on child abuse fatalities show that a child is twice as likely to die of abuse in foster care than in the general population. One study in Baltimore found the rate of substantiated child sexual abuse in foster care more than four times higher than the rate in general population. Another study in Indiana found three times more physical abuse and twice the rate of sexual abuse in foster homes than in the general population. Group homes the rate for physical abuse was 10 times more and more than 28 times the rate of sexual abuse as in the general population.

Looking at the statistics this way doesn't make any sense, though, because it's making the wrong comparison.

These statistics show that, if you take a kid at random from the general population, then, on average, that kid is probably safer at home than she would be in foster care. But no one is recommending randomly removing kids from average homes and putting them into foster care, so it's not particularly useful to know these statistics.

The question of interest is whether children _in families under CPS investigation_ are safer in foster care than they are at home. That's a completely different comparison, and your statistics don't speak to it at all. They're not the "general population." They're a mixed population of abusers and neglecters, people with bad parenting skills that don't meet standards for actual abuse or neglect, and decent parents unfairly caught up in the system. Even with some decent, unfairly accused parents mixed in to the batch, the risk level of the kids in that population is much higher than in the "general population" referenced in your statistics.

My parents were foster parents, so I grew up with foster kids around all the time. I remember the little girl with a bruise across her face that was perfectly shaped like an adult's hand, and the other little girl who entered our house so petrified of adult men that she couldn't speak to or walk by my father, and the infant with broken ribs who was thrown against the wall because he cried too much, and the two preschool boys with tuberculosis and no front teeth, who had spent their entire short lives chained to a ring in the floor.

So yeah, I would hate to have CPS called on me. But I'm not going to say that, in order to make absolutely sure that *I* never suffer from a false accusation, kids like the ones I grew up with should be left right where they are.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
So yeah, I would hate to have CPS called on me. But I'm not going to say that, in order to make absolutely sure that *I* never suffer from a false accusation, kids like the ones I grew up with should be left right where they are.

What I don't get is the either/or dichotomy: *Either* some wrongly-accused parents have to get mixed up in the system -- *or* criminally abused children have to "be left right where they are."

I have a friend who does foster-care, so I've learned a few things about detachment disorder. Apparently, any child who has her relationship with her primary caregiver(s) disrupted in the first 3 years of life, is at risk for developing this disorder.

This means that for parents who haven't been criminally abusive, but are simply under CPS investigation (maybe for having an obese child or for extended breastfeeding) -- to place those children in foster care is to put them at risk for detachment disorder. And, as you've already pointed out -- while children with criminally abusive parents are statistically safer in foster care, children in the general population (even if obese or -- gasp -- still being nurtured at the breast at age 6) are statistically safer when "left right where they are" -- at home.

Okay, the 6yo who's imprisoned in foster-care for extended breastfeeding may be too old to develop detachment disorder -- but what about younger siblings who may also be taken out of the home? (In my state, if CPS perceives one child as being at risk, all the other children are taken out of the home as well, meaning a new baby may be denied her mother's milk while CPS "investigates" the breastfeeding relationship with the older child.) AND, even if the 6yo's too old for detachment disorder, that doesn't mean there's no psychological harm done to an older child who's taken from his parents.

So, if children of wrongly accused parents are placed in foster care -- not only is their risk of abuse increased, so is their risk for developing detachment disorder.

I don't see why recognizing this, has anything to do with leaving children with _adult-sized, hand-shaped bruises_ on their faces, or infants with broken ribs from being _thrown against the wall_, "right where they are."


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
veiledexpressions --

Your situation was clearly, indisputably, a case of criminal behavior: cocaine possession, malnourished children, dangerously unsanitary conditions, and abandonment ... even if there was no CPS, all it would take would be for that storekeeper to call the police about the malnourished, filthy, neglected children.

I'm sure this would have been sufficient evidence for a judge to issue a search-warrant, find the cocaine (as well as the lack of food and dangerous living conditions), and get you and your brother out of there and into your dad's and grandmother's custody.

I'm glad you got the help you needed, and I'm glad you and your mom have such a good relationship now.

Don't the police just call CPS if children are involved?
That's been my experience, but I don't know if that is everywhere.

Also, oddly enough, around her at least, drug use/possesion/selling by the parent is not "reportable" to CPS unless it leads to neglect or abuse.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

Thank you, mammal_mama, for so many great posts!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Don't the police just call CPS if children are involved?
That's been my experience, but I don't know if that is everywhere.

That's possible. My point is, if what you're seeing isn't adequate for a call to the police (in other words, isn't _criminal_ behavior the parent should, and could, be arrested and jailed for) -- why call ANYone? I just think police are less likely to be interested in piddly stuff like a sink full of dirty dishes -- they're more likely to cut to the chase.

Quote:

Also, oddly enough, around her at least, drug use/possesion/selling by the parent is not "reportable" to CPS unless it leads to neglect or abuse.
Doesn't that really make MORE of a case for calling police, and not CPS, if you suspect criminal behavior?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
Thank you, mammal_mama, for so many great posts!

Thanks for your encouragement! I'm trying not to be too repetitive ...

I guess I'm just on a roll. I know so many people who've had CPS called on them, and it's a really tough thing to deal with.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
But I'm not going to say that, in order to make absolutely sure that *I* never suffer from a false accusation, kids like the ones I grew up with should be left right where they are.

And no one here ever said that either. I think we all believe that some system to protect abused and neglected children is necessary. The argument is that the system we have in place now is broken and corrupted beyond belief.

And like I've said many times before, unless you've been the unfairly accused and seen corruption first hand... you have no idea how you would react in that situation or how you would feel. No snarkiness meant at all, but unless you've been there honestly you really don't have a clue.

I do not subscribe to the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Its not just an "acceptable loss" to me. The children who die in foster care, are abused there, or the children who never should have been taken and are now suffering from things like attachment disorders. Just because they saved some children from TRUE abuse and neglect, doesn't make it okay that they've ruined the lives of others. The end does not justify the means.

You're right about one thing. They are not just statistics and numbers. They are our children and they deserve better than this.


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

> I have a friend who does foster-care, so I've learned a few things about detachment disorder. Apparently, any child who has her relationship with her primary caregiver(s) disrupted in the first 3 years of life, is at risk for developing this disorder.[/QUOTE
> 
> Sort of. No, not really.
> 
> ...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
I do not subscribe to the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Its not just an "acceptable loss" to me. The children who die in foster care, are abused there, or the children who never should have been taken and are now suffering from things like attachment disorders. Just because they saved some children from TRUE abuse and neglect, doesn't make it okay that they've ruined the lives of others. The end does not justify the means.

You're right about one thing. They are not just statistics and numbers. They are our children and they deserve better than this.

Exactly! You put it so much better than I could.


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## Amris (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree with those who are telling you to mind your own business.

What the world needs, very badly, is even more people who don't give a crap. There just aren't enough of those!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gus'smama* 
A child who is living with non-abusive parents, who are wrongly accused of something, and the child is wrongly removed while the situation is investigated (to get this far would be pretty rare), and placed in a foster home, then returned home *will not* develop attachment disorder. I'm not saying it wouldn't be terrible for the child and family, but that scenario almost never happens -- as many posters have pointed out, it takes a lot to get a kid removed, even from a clearly abusive situation.

I realize it's not that likely that a child will be removed, my friends who've been called in still have their kids -- but some of these families have been through HELL.

Quote:

It is this kind of hysterical propaganda against foster care and cps intervention that makes me want to scream.
You want to scream because I don't have the detailed knowledge of reactive detachment disorder that you do, not being a foster parent myself? What I've shared is "hysterical propaganda?"

If my attachment-parented children, at any age, were taken from me and forced to spend time in foster-care -- I have *no doubt* there'd be extensive damage to their psyches. Granted, it may not qualify as "reactive detachment disorder" -- but it'd still be damage, damage they'd never have had if they'd simply been allowed to stay in their own home.

You can call me hysterical if you want -- but I want to scream whenever someone says it's acceptable to take this kind of risk -- and even implies that risking the few is necessary to protect the many.

Quote:

Yes there are f'ups working in the field of social work and the judiciary system. Yes, there are some crappy foster parents, and some really abusive ones.

But really, almost everyone involved in this system is trying to *help* children and families.
Now, if we can just take this statement, and help all who work in the child-protection system (or who feel a burden for children) to see that the SAME is true of parents: some are f'ups, and crappy and abusive --

But really, almost all parents love their children and want the best for them. If we'd ALL start having the same trust in the predominant goodness of parents, that some of you are saying we should have in the predominant goodness of CPS --

Well, maybe we'd be more predisposed to believe the best about parents, and reserve the calls, and interventions, for the *criminally abusive* f'ups.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor* 
Don't the police just call CPS if children are involved?
That's been my experience, but I don't know if that is everywhere.

Also, oddly enough, around her at least, drug use/possesion/selling by the parent is not "reportable" to CPS unless it leads to neglect or abuse.

Yes. In any circumstance where a child is in need of an alternative placement, CPS is called by the police. It could be as simple as a single mom being in a car accident and being knocked unconscious. The police can gather info from an older child about who the kids could go stay with, but if mom can't give her verbal consent for the kids to be released to this other person, then CPS must be notified, take custody of the kids and place them with a family member.
In cases where the child is being abused or neglected and the parent is being arrested, two separate investigations will take place. One by the police to determine criminal charges, and the second by CPS to determine if a dependency should be filed and if prental rights should be restricted or eliminated. So you can call the police if you wish, but CPS will still be involved. It is not the police departments responsibility, nor do they have the resources or funding, to place children in other homes. They do not have the legal authority to do that. Only CPS can do that.

Namaste,

Michelle


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

mammal_mama,








I know this is very, very emotional for you and other posters. Me too.

Way up thread I posted a link to the US fed government statistics on outcomes in child welfare. One thing of huge note in that data is the immense difference between jurisdictions. Some jurisdictions are abysmal; others do pretty well. The problem with us all sharing online is that what actually occured 5000 miles away feels like it happened next door, and when you add that to what actually did happen in your neighbourhood, the extent of the problem seems much greater.

It's an entirely imperfect system, in large part because humans are evaluating and judging risk. And the information is biased by the teller and the listener. Also, any abuse or neglect typically goes on beyond closed doors and so isn't always easy to verify. I think a first step is to ensure that child welfare specialists are trained and members of a professional body to whom they are accountable (ie social workers). I think that what the US feds are doing by counting outcomes gives professionals and legislators more information on which to make decisions, but they've only been doing this since 2000 and systems are slow to move/change.

I have a number of concerns about your notion of a criminal justice response. I only have to look at the history of rape prosecutions and domestic violence approaches. It would also require a huge investment in justice services. I'm also not convinced that all police departments are any more above reproach than all child welfare systems. There would also still need to be support systems, and whoever runs these is accountable. With that accountability comes a desire to control and manage risk, and this would inevitably lead to changes in the way police handled CP. Right now, the police know that ultimately it's CPS who will take the fall if it goes wrong.

I entirely agree that a pretty good yardstick of whether or not you should call CPS is whether it would warrant a call to police - otherwise I think it's being pretty cavalier with someone else's privacy. "Look sees" by CPS are intrusive and horrifying, even if they only check in one time. I don't think we should be so quick to judge other families. I also try to be that mom who offers a warm smile, or a 'been there, done that' sympathetic remark to a parent who's struggling with a cranky kid. It's not my role to judge every detail of what someone else is doing, unless a child is at clear risk (safety, injury, food).


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I voted don't call on these type of cases, but reading all of this has got me thinking about the damage mental & emotional abuse can cause in a vulnerable child, or that verbal abuse may also have a physical abuse component out of public view.

So, I am wondering at what point verbal abuse it a reportable offence. "You fucking brat! Get the hell over here" might not be something that would have me on the phone. A smile, an offer of help might be thoughtful, a comment on how crazy little kids can make us, said in an as non- accusatory way as possible, could take some pressure off the parent for the moment and benefit the child. I imagine in rare cases this interaction might further embarass or upset the parent. We don't know for absolute sure.

How about, "You fucking little whore". Or what about, "You fucking little cunt, I am going to beat your ass so bad when we get home" ? Parental hubris? Would you feel comfortable letting that go? Woudl you think maybe it's an aunt or babysitter saying these things and that the parent ought to know? Is avoiding an embarrassing visit from CPS wirth the spiritual, emotional (or physical ) life of a child?

I guess I would have more confidence in the 'basic goodness' of crappy or stressed parenting if so parents weren't murdering and raping their offspring so frequently. (Or videotaping them in dog fights).


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## mikes_becky (May 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I really get the impression the people who'd call CPS (about a mom yelling in public), feel so superior to the stressed-out, yelling mom that they'd never DREAM of identifying with her to the point of saying, "I've been there, too."









: However, without attacking the OP-- and hoping the OP hears me-- I remember she identifies herself as a "new mom." I remember very well when I had a first baby who had not even reached the toddler stage yet. I had mothering instinct enough for twelve women but *not enough experience* <--- (that's the critical point) to have humility and genuine, nonjudgmental compassion for other mothers. I remember having been told that when I had a child, I would finally understand my mother. I spent about the first four years of my son's life feeling that that was a complete joke. If anything, I felt angrier than ever at my mother because I believed I was a far superior mother to her, and I couldn't reconcile why she had allowed herself to be so mediocre.

In retrospect-- and this is something I think is going on with the OP-- I needed to prove to myself that I was a good mom, and one way to validate this was to do a lot of things that were the opposite of what my mother did. I could say, there, my mother never made her own organic baby food, but today I did, and that makes me feel good inside and, on the sliding scale inside my mind, it places me higher than my own mother. I'm not defending that as showing great depth of character-- I'm saying, I admit it, I think that way sometimes and I know I'm not the only one. I believe the OP is truly concerned about these children, but I also think it's possible that seeing those things as possibly-reportable validates to her that she is not THAT kind of mother. I can't blame her at all IF this is the case, because I might have felt the same way when I was a new mother. So I would say, no, I wouldn't report those things, but I wouldn't attack her for her line of thinking.

To feel like "I've been there too," you need to have actually had experiences where your kid was the screamer in the grocery store-- where you grabbed your preschooler by his collar in Target and threatened to make him very, very sorry if he doesn't stop bleeping whining by the count of three-- where you got so preoccupied talking to your friends at a party that your baby climbed into the swimming pool and had to be returned by your neighbor's older child who fortunately is more on-the-ball than you are. I've known very few mothers who possessed much humility before their child turned three. I certainly wasn't one of them.

-Rebecca


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gus'smama* 

Quote:

I have a friend who does foster-care, so I've learned a few things about detachment disorder. Apparently, any child who has her relationship with her primary caregiver(s) disrupted in the first 3 years of life, is at risk for developing this disorder.
Sort of. No, not really.

It is called Reactive attachment disorder.

It is a result of *multiple* changes in caregiver during childhood, or, more commonly, a result of _living with abusive, neglectful, and/or inconsistent caregiver(s)_

A child who is living with non-abusive parents, who are wrongly accused of something, and the child is wrongly removed while the situation is investigated (to get this far would be pretty rare), and placed in a foster home, then returned home *will not* develop attachment disorder. I'm not saying it wouldn't be terrible for the child and family, but that scenario almost never happens -- as many posters have pointed out, it takes a lot to get a kid removed, even from a clearly abusive situation.

It is this kind of hysterical propaganda against foster care and cps intervention that makes me want to scream.

Yes there are f'ups working in the field of social work and the judiciary system. Yes, there are some crappy foster parents, and some really abusive ones.

But really, almost everyone involved in this system is trying to *help* children and families.

I must disagree with this.

If an infant is taken from its non abusive mother and put into foster care as a result of a call to CPS, corruption of the system, whatever the case may be for that situation... that child very well could end up with an attachment disorder. It might not be Reactive Attachment disorder, as there are a range of disorders under this spectrum.

Reactive Attachment Disorder can also be caused by many other things including hospitalizations as an infant, undiagnosed chronic pain, early separation from the mother, multiple caregivers, abusive or neglectful parents, frequent moves or placements, maternal addiction, maternal depression, traumatic experiences, lack of attunment with mother, or young and inexperienced mothers with a lack of parenting skills.

Children in the foster care system as an average have a minimum of four placements, with some children moving much more than that. Many of them do end up with an attachment disorder of some sort. Given that the foster care placements are rarely short term. And that short term by definition can be months.. it not something that happens rarely. In fact, its quite common. Reactive Attachment disorder is not as common, but it is a reality that children in foster care, institutionalized care, or orphanages have a higher incidence of any form of attachment disorder.

UUMom, some very normal looking families on the outside have horrific lives behind closed doors. Its not just the crappy or stressed parents that rape, abuse and beat their children. Its the very normal ones that do as well. Stereotyping is rarely useful.

A visit from CPS isn't "embarrassing." Its downright horrifying. Embarrassing I could deal with. Permanently scarring my family and causing emotional and psychological damage because some busybody decided to impose their own warped judgment on my family, I have an issue with.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mikes_becky* 

To feel like "I've been there too," you need to have actually had experiences where your kid was the screamer in the grocery store-- where you grabbed your preschooler by his collar in Target and threatened to make him very, very sorry if he doesn't stop bleeping whining by the count of three-- where you got so preoccupied talking to your friends at a party that your baby climbed into the swimming pool and had to be returned by your neighbor's older child who fortunately is more on-the-ball than you are. I've known very few mothers who possessed much humility before their child turned three. I certainly wasn't one of them.

-Rebecca


I could not agree more. I feel motherhood had humbled me- in many more ways than just parenting. My kids are 6 and 3, and when my second was born, it was like a learning process that started. I realized I AM a good mother and have no need to prove it to anyone but myself and my children.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I voted don't call on these type of cases, but reading all of this has got me thinking about the damage mental & emotional abuse can cause in a vulnerable child, or that verbal abuse may also have a physical abuse component out of public view.

What does that have to do with anything? I've known plenty of kids with parents who looked like perfect angels when they were out in public...and they were being beaten at home. Maybe we should just call CPS on _every_ parent who's out in public, because something _might_ be going on "behind closed doors".

I'm sorry, but this whole thing about what people are doing in the privacy of their homes is creepy. We don't know, and we can't tell who's beating their kids by overhearing someone call their child a "fucking brat".


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
I entirely agree that a pretty good yardstick of whether or not you should call CPS is whether it would warrant a call to police - otherwise I think it's being pretty cavalier with someone else's privacy. "Look sees" by CPS are intrusive and horrifying, even if they only check in one time. I don't think we should be so quick to judge other families. I also try to be that mom who offers a warm smile, or a 'been there, done that' sympathetic remark to a parent who's struggling with a cranky kid. It's not my role to judge every detail of what someone else is doing, unless a child is at clear risk (safety, injury, food).

Yes, I see your point that totally turning child protection over to the police might not be any better, or any less corrupt, than what's in place now. But your idea that something should only be reportable to CPS if it would also be reportable to police -- that's a good idea.

I've never heard of police even being interested in a messy house -- whereas a pp mentioned a CPS worker wanting to come back to recheck her home because there were toys and blankets on the floor, and dishes in the sink. I see this as a real violation of privacy.

So, maybe I don't mean it should all be turned over to police -- I just mean CPS needs to follow police standards as to what they consider reportable, what kinds of calls they follow up on. Limit their intrusive investigations to actual cases of suspected criminal behavior: beating, sexual abuse, severe neglect and deprivation.

I'm not saying it's all cut-and-dry. Sometimes angry neighbors will fabricate stories of beatings or other severe abuse, and those calls still have to be investigated. But a beating will show signs of impact; also many forms of sexual abuse can be substantiated with DNA. And neglect bears its own physical signs as well. There's no reason it has to take months and months, with a child languishing in foster care, to figure out if a beating, rape, or nutritional deprivation actually took place. These should all be obvious pretty quickly with physical examinations. (Yes, I say _languishing_: not as any insult to foster parents, but to emphasize that being uprooted from their families is a grievous thing for children.)

In any case where children can be examined without having to be separated from their parents, this should be done. I think one of the reasons my friends who were investigated, were so reluctant to let their kids be interviewed, was that they thought it might very likely involve their kids being taken away from them for who knows how long -- a very frightening thing for small children.

I understand that, where a child needs to be questioned, there's concern the child won't feel safe telling the truth with the (possibly abusive) parent listening nearby. But for physical examinations -- there's no reason an examiner can't see whatever s/he needs to see while still letting the parents be there. I've actually heard of cases where the children are put in a vehicle and taken to the doctor's office while the parents are left behind. That seems so wrong, so isolating for the children.

And also, in my friends' case, there was no reason the children "needed" to be interviewed, as the only thing my friend was "suspect" for was letting her children play in their own yard.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I understand that, where a child needs to be questioned, there's concern the child won't feel safe telling the truth with the (possibly abusive) parent listening nearby. But for physical examinations -- there's no reason an examiner can't see whatever s/he needs to see while still letting the parents be there. I've actually heard of cases where the children are put in a vehicle and taken to the doctor's office while the parents are left behind. That seems so wrong, so isolating for the children.

I was sexually molested by my father when I was 9. I give no props to CPS because they didn't catch the abuse at all. I came forward with it.

Still, CPS took me kicking and screaming and forced me into stirrups at the doctors office.. physically held me down while I cried for my grandmother, and allowed me to be violated against my will with the largest Q-tip I had ever seen. They refused to allow my grandmother (who raised me) to come with me at all. There were never any allegations against her whatsoever, they just wanted me to be "a big girl" they said. And do it alone.

The trauma of being separated from my grandmother, and raped by the doctor caused me to shut down completely. I later refused to take the stand to testify against my father and he walked away with no charges against him. CPS interviews, interference, and their insistence at keeping me away from the only emotional support I had allowed my father to go free.

I always thought as I grew up and got a new perspective on things I'd think differently but I don't. CPS being involved and the hell they put me through was far worse than the sexual abuse by my father ever was. If I had to go through it again, I would have kept my mouth shut.

And thats pretty sad.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What does that have to do with anything? I've known plenty of kids with parents who looked like perfect angels when they were out in public...and they were being beaten at home. Maybe we should just call CPS on _every_ parent who's out in public, because something _might_ be going on "behind closed doors".

I'm sorry, but this whole thing about what people are doing in the privacy of their homes is creepy. We don't know, and we can't tell who's beating their kids by overhearing someone call their child a "fucking brat".

Yes, one of my classmates in college was seriously bugged by the fact that child protection workers currently have no way of knowing what's "going on behind closed doors." She felt the inability to really see into each home, was a severe handicap to being able to protect and rescue children from abuse.

I don't know what kind of childhood she had (I honestly had no desire to get to know her too well), but it was my first awareness that there are actual people who think it'd be A Good Thing to have surveillance cameras in every room of every residence, kind of like "Big Brother" in that eerie movie "1984." Yikes!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nature* 
Still, CPS took me kicking and screaming and forced me into stirrups at the doctors office.. physically held me down while I cried for my grandmother, and allowed me to be violated against my will with the largest Q-tip I had ever seen. They refused to allow my grandmother (who raised me) to come with me at all. There were never any allegations against her whatsoever, they just wanted me to be "a big girl" they said. And do it alone.

The trauma of being separated from my grandmother, and raped by the doctor caused me to shut down completely. I later refused to take the stand to testify against my father and he walked away with no charges against him. CPS interviews, interference, and their insistence at keeping me away from the only emotional support I had allowed my father to go free.

Nature, I'm so sorry that the agency you turned to for support, turned on you and violated your trust so horribly. I wish I could turn back the clock and make them get your grandmother.









So much of what I hear, makes me think that many "child protection" workers are not as concerned about protecting children as they are about dominating and asserting their "top dog" position over everyone they can.


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

mammal_mama, I'm sorry if my tone was a bit harsh in my last post -- what I meant was about 'hysterical propaganda' was directed at so much of what I read on this board (not just this post) where people seem to think attachment disorder is as easy to catch as the common cold. Kids can go through some pretty awful trauma w/o developing RAD -- things have to be pretty consistently awful for RAD to develop. A child who develops an attachment (secure or insecure) to any caregiver (parent, foster parent, grandparent, daycare worker etc) as an infant, has developed the brain patterns for what healthy attachment is, and will be able to transfer that attachment to a new caregiver if neccessary.

I am also not trying to deny or downplay anyones bad experiences w/ CPS -- I know they happen. I also know they really are the exception not the rule. I'd love to give examples, but then I'd be violating the confidentiality of the families I've worked with -- my username is not anonymous enough, and there are people I know IRL on MDC.

Back to the example in the OP though. When my fk's go back to live with their mom, there will be a period of time when they are still under the supervison of the department, possibly still even in state custody, but "placed" with their mother. If she were swearing at them like that in a parking lot, it *would* mean that she likely hasn't changed other aspects of her "parenting" as well. I doubt that a call about her swearing at them would get the kids removed again, but in an open case, it would get some closer supervision and possibly a new round of supports from the parent educator.

That is what *I* mean when I say we don't know the whole story, I'm not talking about "oooh, what goes on behind closed doors".


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
What does that have to do with anything? I've known plenty of kids with parents who looked like perfect angels when they were out in public...and they were being beaten at home. Maybe we should just call CPS on _every_ parent who's out in public, because something _might_ be going on "behind closed doors".

I'm sorry, but this whole thing about what people are doing in the privacy of their homes is creepy. We don't know, and we can't tell who's beating their kids by overhearing someone call their child a "fucking brat".

So your answer to my question is that you wouldn't call, no matter what was being said to the child. I should have done a poll. If I knew how that amazing technology worked.







:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

gus'smama, Thanks for clarifying!

I *do* realize there's a need for foster-homes. My friend has adopted some children through the foster-care system, and I know before this happened there was lots of working with the birth-moms to see if there was ANY way they were interested enough to try to parent their children.

My friend thinks it's best if the children can retain relationships with their birth-moms, and even as she fell in love with the kids (especially the one she raised from like a day old), she remained open to the possibility that they weren't hers to keep, and she really wanted what was best for them, and for them to get to be with their birth moms if possible. (When I say she especially fell in love with the one she had from birth, I don't mean she loves the others less -- but this is the one who's totally bonded with her: it's like a gift that she gets to have one who's totally hers, when all the others have varying degrees of reactive detachment disorder.)

I have tons of respect for people like you and my friend, who let these little ones into your hearts before even knowing if they'll really become yours. I don't blame foster parents for the ways some CPS workers treat parents like my friend, and the other parents who've shared on this board about their experiences of being called in.

See, with the children my friend adopted, CPS got involved because of clear, physical evidence of some really horrible things going on. It wasn't a case of some b*tchy neighbor calling in because of a tantruming child, messy house, child playing in yard, or stressed-out parent. That's why I don't see the connection when people say, "Well, if you're not willing to report every case of parenting that differs from what you'd do -- that's tantamount to saying you're willing to leave brutally abused and neglected children right where they are."

There's absolutely no connection at all.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amris* 
I agree with those who are telling you to mind your own business.

What the world needs, very badly, is even more people who don't give a crap. There just aren't enough of those!

Well, yes. Especially since it was reported by one person in this thread that being raped by dad was less traumatic than CPS help.

I wish there was a way reliable and annoymous way to find out if this is true of many incest victims who were adied by CPS. (Not those children who were never taken out of the situation).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I guess I would have more confidence in the 'basic goodness' of crappy or stressed parenting if so parents weren't murdering and raping their offspring so frequently. (Or videotaping them in dog fights).

UUMom, I wanted to review this previous comment of yours in response to your more recent comment, that you wish we could find out if "many" incest victims felt they were raped and violated by CPS, when they turned to them for help.

Your implication seemed to be (or is it just MY interpretation?) that if only a _very small percentage_ of incest victims had an experience similar to that of Nature's -- people should have more confidence in the "basic goodness" of most CPS workers -- they shouldn't "suspect" and mistrust everyone in the system just because of a few crappy workers.

Well, now I'm wishing we had all kinds of statistics at our disposal -- such as, what percentage of parents actually murder and rape their offspring -- or videotape them in dog fights? Even better, what percentage of parents who EVER stoop so low as to scream and cuss at their children while out in public, eventually go on to murder, rape, and videotape their children in dog fights?

And, are the parents who sometimes act like jerks in public ANY more likely to commit these crimes against their children once they get them "behind closed doors," than parents who act like the loving, understanding moms and dads we all aspire to be? I say this because I've often heard about incestuous dads, or abusive husbands, that "nobody could believe" would _ever_ do the horrible things their children and wives said they did -- they were just such nice guys and didn't seem like the "type" at all.

If, as I believe, the vast majority of parents (even the ones who scream and cuss in parking lots, and even the ones who seem "too good to be true") NEVER go on to commit any heinous crimes against their children, and actually LOVE their children -- does this mean it's okay to start trusting in the "basic goodness" of most parents, and give stressed-out parents the benefit of the doubt, rather than having the number to CPS programmed into our cell phones, and pen and paper at the ready, for taking down license #'s wherever we go?

And, I repeat, refusing to be trigger-happy _doesn't_ mean we're willing to "look the other way" when we see criminal behavior against ANYone, especially a child.

I just refuse to believe that in order to protect children, there have to be "casualties," and some wrongly accused parents (and their children) have to be sacrificed --

and I say they're being sacrificed even if the children are never taken out of the home, if they're put through a lot of unnecessary stress like my friends, and some others here, have been.

It's never fair to say we'll sacrifice the few for the good of the many. Every person, and every family, matters.


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## Hopesmommy (Oct 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mikes_becky* 







: However, without attacking the OP-- and hoping the OP hears me-- I remember she identifies herself as a "new mom." I remember very well when I had a first baby who had not even reached the toddler stage yet. I had mothering instinct enough for twelve women but *not enough experience* <--- (that's the critical point) to have humility and genuine, nonjudgmental compassion for other mothers. I remember having been told that when I had a child, I would finally understand my mother. I spent about the first four years of my son's life feeling that that was a complete joke. If anything, I felt angrier than ever at my mother because I believed I was a far superior mother to her, and I couldn't reconcile why she had allowed herself to be so mediocre.

In retrospect-- and this is something I think is going on with the OP-- I needed to prove to myself that I was a good mom, and one way to validate this was to do a lot of things that were the opposite of what my mother did. I could say, there, my mother never made her own organic baby food, but today I did, and that makes me feel good inside and, on the sliding scale inside my mind, it places me higher than my own mother. I'm not defending that as showing great depth of character-- I'm saying, I admit it, I think that way sometimes and I know I'm not the only one. I believe the OP is truly concerned about these children, but I also think it's possible that seeing those things as possibly-reportable validates to her that she is not THAT kind of mother. I can't blame her at all IF this is the case, because I might have felt the same way when I was a new mother. So I would say, no, I wouldn't report those things, but I wouldn't attack her for her line of thinking.

To feel like "I've been there too," you need to have actually had experiences where your kid was the screamer in the grocery store-- where you grabbed your preschooler by his collar in Target and threatened to make him very, very sorry if he doesn't stop bleeping whining by the count of three-- where you got so preoccupied talking to your friends at a party that your baby climbed into the swimming pool and had to be returned by your neighbor's older child who fortunately is more on-the-ball than you are. I've known very few mothers who possessed much humility before their child turned three. I certainly wasn't one of them.

-Rebecca


Wow, that was perfect. Well said.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I don't speak in riddles, mammal mama. I asked a question. Anonymity in answering would only be to respect the privacy (if one wanted privacy) for those who might answer. I know it is not a question that could be asked or answered here to show anything 'scientifcally'. Polls are not science, in other words. Still, I am curious. I know each person in this world as their own story to tell. I respect that.

You've no need to read anything into my question: there are no layers to my question.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
You've no need to read anything into my question: there are no layers to my question.

Sorry: I wasn't trying to accuse you of saying things you weren't.

You'd previously said you might "have more confidence in the 'basic goodness' of crappy or stressed parenting if so parents" --

(do I read that as "some parents," or "so many parents?") --

"weren't murdering and raping their offspring so frequently. (or videotaping them in dog fights)."

Since NO ONE has EVER said, in this thread, that there's "basic goodness" in "crappy or stressed parenting" -- I tried to make sense of what you'd said, by "reading into" your statement the idea that you were having a hard time trusting in the "basic goodness" of _parents_ who you saw parenting in a crappy or stressed _manner_ --

because some (or so many?) parents go on to murder, rape, or videotape their children in dog fights.

Rather than adding layers to what YOU were saying -- I was adding MY OWN layer by saying it would be good to get actual statistics about what percentage of parents are actually murdering, raping, or videotaping their children in dog fights.

Just as there are probably many victims of incest who turn to CPS for help, and are actually helped -- I think there are also many individuals who sometimes got screamed or cussed at by their parents, who nevertheless made it all the way to adulthood without having their parents murder or rape them, or videotape them in dog fights.

Meaning, maybe it would be easier for everyone to trust in the basic goodness of parents, and give them the benefit of the doubt when we see stressed or crappy (but not criminal) behavior, if we realized the truth that the _overwhelming majority_ of parents who sometimes act like jerks in public, _aren't_ committing heinous acts of child abuse the moment they get their children alone "behind closed doors."


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
So your answer to my question is that you wouldn't call, no matter what was being said to the child. I should have done a poll. If I knew how that amazing technology worked.







:

I have no idea whether I'd call over something being said to a child. I know I'd have to think long and hard before putting a child through what I've seen them go through with CPS...including the child who was, like Nature, forced to undergo a violating physical by himself. I don't assume that calling CPS will make a child's situation worse - but I don't assume it won't, either.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

--Meaning, maybe it would be easier for everyone to trust in the basic goodness of parents, and give them the benefit of the doubt when we see stressed or crappy (but not criminal) behavior, if we realized the truth that the overwhelming majority of parents who sometimes act like jerks in public, aren't committing heinous acts of child abuse the moment they get their children alone "behind closed doors."--

I don;t think people are really trying to understand each other here. I think there are a couple of folks hwo hate CPS (for some very good reasons) and are projecting others' concern about children going unheard are saying they want to put vdieo cameras in every house. It's one thing to hate CPS as an institution, it's another thing to ridicule people's concern for children.

I just don't feel this is a thoughtful or sharing discussion at this point (and I even voted don't call in the poll) so I am going to unsub. Only saying so you're not looking for replies from me. I appreciate you might want to continue with the discussion and I didn't want to leave without an explaniation of why I wasn't continuing to participate.


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

aiea said:


> Hi all,
> A friend of a friend told me that she puts earplugs in at night so that she can't hear her sons crying unless it's "loud enough". Her sons are 1 and 2.5 years old. She also goes to the backyard at night with her husband to relax, leaving the kids in their bedroom to cry it out, play, do whatever, until they are asleep. She told me the purpose of going outside is to not hear the boys. So sad, it breaks my heart.
> 
> 
> ...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I don't quite understand why the "party blower" icon's at the top of the page; I couldn't edit it out, either.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I think EVERYone concerned about child abuse would like to install survielance cameras in every home. I also think it's uncommon for people to program the # to CPS into their cellphones, or be waiting with pen at the ready to take down license #'s of any parents they see cussing in parking lots or struggling with car-seats.

I shared about my weird School of Social Work classmate, and her desire for the government to be able to see into every home -- to increase peoples' awareness that there really ARE people who'd like to subject EVERY FAMILY to this kind of scrutiny. So, the next time you see some mom acting like a total *ss in the grocery store parking lot, and you're tempted to speculate that, if she'll act like such an *ss in public, she must be a gazillion times worse with her kids "behind closed doors" -- just remember we all love our privacy: it might make you more hesitant about violating hers.

Also, I'm NOT devoid of concern for "other people's kids" (though I DO view them as "other people's kids" and not as "our (or the state's) kids"). I'm an AP momma who's horrified that any momma would let her baby CIO. I also hate seeing babies spending a great part of their days in plastic baby holders, with bottles propped in their mouths. I sling my babies, nurse on cue, and am very happy to be "a human pacifier."

I see many detached parenting practices as downright bad parenting, and abusive toward children. That said, I'm aware there are child protection workers who think it's "molestation" to breastfeed a child longer than 3 years, or to have a family bed. There are some who think we play "Russian Roulette" with our children's health by homebirthing and not immunizing.

That's why I say, focus on the *criminal* aspect of what you see. Anything less than *criminal* behavior is NOT worth an invasion of privacy. I just think that's how we'd ALL like others to "do unto us."


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Name-calling and cursing at your children is verbal abuse, and it is criminal.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Name-calling and cursing at your children is verbal abuse,

yes...

Quote:

and it is criminal.
I highly doubt that. In an of itself, no occasional outburst of cussing or name calling is going to be considered a criminal matter in this country.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
yes...

I highly doubt that. In an of itself, no occasional outburst of cussing or name calling is going to be considered a criminal matter in this country.

No, it's not . . .

I've not read this entire thread so apologies if I'm repeating something that's already been said, but I think there is a big difference between less-than-optimal parenting or, even, bad parenting and actual abuse.

I wish every parent were loving, caring, and AP-oriented. Realistically, that's not going to happen. I know I, myself, fail all the time in acheiving my parenting goals. But there is a difference between not being a great parent, or even a particularly good parent, and being a criminally negligent and/or abusive parent.

There is so much actual, life-threatening abuse going on every single day (just read about a man putting his two month daughter in the microwave. She's now in critical condition) that I think it behooves us to get ahold of our indignation when we see what falls under the category of "less than optimal" (yelling at kids), "bad" (CIO, in the opinion of most APers) and actual abuse (systematically hitting, not feeding, abandoning, etc.)


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## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Individuation* 
Yes, basically that. Thanks, BSD.

Thank you! I have personally seen just how much it can disrupt a family for so-called "well meaning" busy bodies to go making accusations just because someone is choosing parenting methods that don't fit their ideal. Would you want someone calling cps and telling them they feel you are a danger to your kids because you choose to make them eat some vegetables instead of letting them eat nothing but cheese? I had someone jump all over me for this once! everyone should have the right to make their own choices. By the way, what the heck do you think cps is going to do if they did agree with you? I'll tell you what they will do, they will come into that house, tell the kids that they have bad parents, scare the bejeses out of everyone, tell the parents they don't know the first thing about their own kids, and do 1 of 2 things: they will continue to disrupt and check in and take away an semblance peace in that home, or they will take the kids and stick them in a foster home where I can guarantee you much worse will happen to them than just being cursed at or left to cry for an hour. Go tend to your own business! I will shut up now because I have probably already crossed the line to very rude and obscene is just around the bend.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
I wish every parent were loving, caring, and AP-oriented. Realistically, that's not going to happen. I know I, myself, fail all the time in acheiving my parenting goals. But there is a difference between not being a great parent, or even a particularly good parent, and being a criminally negligent and/or abusive parent.

Exaxctly!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Verbal abuse is criminal. That some people in the system would rather take children away from their parents because there are dishes in the sink than because their parents are calling them names doesn't change that. Verbal abuse is considered child abuse. Some people don't think it's that bad, but verbal abuse of a child is still against the law just like physical abuse. I was physically and verbally abused as a child, and the damage of the verbal abuse has long outlived that of the physical abuse. It's like a lot of things that are illegal but aren't enforced that well, because people charged with enforcing them don't think they're that bad compared to other things they have to deal with.


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## sarahwpen (May 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Verbal abuse is criminal. That some people in the system would rather take children away from their parents because there are dishes in the sink than because their parents are calling them names doesn't change that. Verbal abuse is considered child abuse. Some people don't think it's that bad, but verbal abuse of a child is still against the law just like physical abuse. I was physically and verbally abused as a child, and the damage of the verbal abuse has long outlived that of the physical abuse. It's like a lot of things that are illegal but aren't enforced that well, because people charged with enforcing them don't think they're that bad compared to other things they have to deal with.

I also was verbally and physically abused as a child, and you are right that the effects of verbal abuse are long lasting, but I AM able to put it behind me. The awful things that were said to me as a child DO NOT define what I am today unless I let them. Physical abuse can. Scars and flashbacks are much harder to put behind you than someone's crappy opinion.

They are not the same and for a behavior to qualify as verbal abuse it must be more than a single outburst after a tantrum in a parking lot. You can't name every parent who says "get in the f***ing car!" a verbal abuser! That would be a horrible understatement of everything that is suffered by those who have been truly abused. It may be rude, innappropriate, disrespectful and very unbecoming, but that is NOT abuse. Abuse is when you are told over and over that your opinion doesn't matter, that you are worthless, that you are a whore for kissing your boyfriend, that no one cares about you and never will, and many other forms of brutal, unkind, senseless degradation of your self worth, and security. You can curse and not be an abuser, you can also never curse and deliver some of the cruelest messages known to man. There is a difference between being unkind and crossing the line to where your unkind behavior is truly a hinderance to the well-being and human rights of another person.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Everyone is different. We don't all get over it easily. We're all affected in different ways by it. I happen to think its just as abusive to scream "Get in the f'ing car you f'ing brat" as it is to tell your daughter she's a b****.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amris* 
I agree with those who are telling you to mind your own business.

What the world needs, very badly, is even more people who don't give a crap. There just aren't enough of those!


Perhaps well intentioned neighbors or onlookers who "give a crap" should offer some kind of actual help rather than just thowing up their hands and calling the authorities. There's a lot of grey area between not giving a crap and putting a possibly perfectly good family in jeopardy. Don't you think?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
Perhaps well intentioned neighbors or onlookers who "give a crap" should offer some kind of actual help rather than just thowing up their hands and calling the authorities. There's a lot of grey area between not giving a crap and putting a possibly perfectly good family in jeopardy. Don't you think?

Yes.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Everyone is different. We don't all get over it easily. We're all affected in different ways by it. I happen to think its just as abusive to scream "Get in the f'ing car you f'ing brat" as it is to tell your daughter she's a b****.

I actually agree with this. However, I don't agree that every parent who screams "Get in the f'ing car, you f'ing brat" is necessarily a verbally abusive parent. Do you _really_ want to see children put through the hell that can be a CPS investigation simply because someone overheard their mother on a really, really bad day? There's a _huge_ difference between a parent who sometimes crosses the line when they're over-stressed, and the parent who has a _pattern_ of abuse.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

But you can't know whether it was a really bad day or if it happens all the time just from observing. Some would thus do nothing, and some would do something. It depends on what you think is the better option personally. Having been verbally abused I might have a different opinion on the matter than you, in that situation, about which would be better, you know?


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## MissPlum (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I actually agree with this. However, I don't agree that every parent who screams "Get in the f'ing car, you f'ing brat" is necessarily a verbally abusive parent. Do you _really_ want to see children put through the hell that can be a CPS investigation simply because someone overheard their mother on a really, really bad day? There's a _huge_ difference between a parent who sometimes crosses the line when they're over-stressed, and the parent who has a _pattern_ of abuse.









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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

One thing about this thread and others is the suggestion about calling CPS and how its for the good of the child. And how any type of name calling and yelling is verbal abuse and criminal. And CIO is certainly neglect. And so on and so forth.

But what I never see if what the "call CPS" bandwagon posters expect is going to happen? Where do all the children who have those less than optimal parents (to borrow from a PP) - the ones who never lose their patience, the ones who follow every AP parenting guideline, the ones who can never need personal time bc they are perfect - going to go if they are removed from the home of the less than optimal parents? The presumption seems to be that foster parents are perfect and would never engage in less than optimal parenting practices.
Also, I always wonder why those who claim that every last litte thing is "abuse" (which btw I personally find offensive considering I believe it demeans the actual experience of children who are truly abused) and that they themselves would never engage in any less than optimal parenting practice are never themselves foster parents. If they are so perfect, why are they not offering their home to these children when they are in need?

The OP - grow up. Life happens. People yell and scream at each other - even at their own kids. Its not nice but its reality.

And some parents need a break bc if they don't get one they will probably reach a breaking point and start hurting their child so they go outside and so they can calm down and get it together. Because they are adults, and they are parents, and they are doing the responsible thing. Not because they are negligent. If I had to guess, CPS would rather have them do this then starting smack and hitting their child.

Maggie


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *m9m9m9* 
One thing about this thread and others is the suggestion about calling CPS and how its for the good of the child. And how any type of name calling and yelling is verbal abuse and criminal. And CIO is certainly neglect. And so on and so forth.

But what I never see if what the "call CPS" bandwagon posters expect is going to happen? Where do all the children who have those less than optimal parents (to borrow from a PP) - the ones who never lose their patience, the ones who follow every AP parenting guideline, the ones who can never need personal time bc they are perfect - going to go if they are removed from the home of the less than optimal parents? The presumption seems to be that foster parents are perfect and would never engage in less than optimal parenting practices.
Also, I always wonder why those who claim that every last litte thing is "abuse" (which btw I personally find offensive considering I believe it demeans the actual experience of children who are truly abused) and that they themselves would never engage in any less than optimal parenting practice are never themselves foster parents. If they are so perfect, why are they not offering their home to these children when they are in need?

The OP - grow up. Life happens. People yell and scream at each other - even at their own kids. Its not nice but its reality.

And some parents need a break bc if they don't get one they will probably reach a breaking point and start hurting their child so they go outside and so they can calm down and get it together. Because they are adults, and they are parents, and they are doing the responsible thing. Not because they are negligent. If I had to guess, CPS would rather have them do this then starting smack and hitting their child.

Maggie









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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I was physically and verbally abused as a child, and the damage of the verbal abuse has long outlived that of the physical abuse.

Me too, but I still don't think the government should concern itself with verbal/emotional interactions between family members, even children. I think enforcement against child abuse should limit itself to things that are physical and objectively confirmable. Because _everybody_ yells at their kids at one time or another. Making it a reason for kids to get taken away amounts to declaring open season for the social workers. It's too much of an invasion and it's not going to help. You think the foster parents (or group-home attendants) where they get sent are going to be all full of tenderness and kind words for these kids? If the physical abuse rates in foster care are as high as they are, I can only imagine what the verbal/emotional abuse rate must be. Also factor in the trauma of being separated not just from the parent, but from extended family, friends, your school, the whole familiar context of life. Your whole support network. Because your mother freaked out and called you a bad name. It's just not how I want the government spending my money, arbitrarily separating families as punishment for emotional imperfection.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And even when they don't get separated, the CPS intervention itself is a form of abuse, or can be. With my friends I previously shared about, the whole long drawn-out investigation seemed more about trying to persuade my friends that it would be in their "best interests" to just go along with whatever the worker wanted, because CPS "could" force them to do all these things, but they'd rather not "have" to. It seemed more about the worker's desire to inspire "respect" (read "cowed intimidation") in the hearts of these particular parents who knew their rights and said "No," than it was about concern for my friends' children.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

CIO is the norm, mainstream standard, so it wouldn't be considered neglect 'legally.' Verbal abuse would; it's just not taken as seriously as physical abuse. All parents lose their patience, but they don't all call their children names when they do. As for the defintion of abuse, look it up. Verbal abuse includes name calling. I disagree about government intervention. Verbal abuse isn't just about emotional interactions. Verbal abuse is as devastating as physical abuse. The foster parents may not be perfect, but they aren't going to be allowed to abuse the kids either. I hate CPS as much as anyone here, but when a parent is verbally or physically abusing their kid, I think it's worth the investigation. And btw, I know of plenty of folks who have had investigations that weren't complete traumatic nightmares. I know many who have had terrible experiences, but that's not always true. If you want to say a CPS investigation is always traumatic, go ahead, but its happened to someone in my family -- and no one involved was traumatized by having a social worker look through the house and talk to them, which is what was done.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

moonfirefaery, I guess I just see a difference between Mom yelling, "Get in the f'ing car you f'ing brat" -- and what I perceive as criminal verbal abuse. Criminal verbal abuse may or may not involve cussing. It's where a parent continually insults and belittles a child. You can't really know if this is being done by witnessing one incident in a parking lot.

I know you realize this: your perspective is that, if you see behavior that you think _might_ indicate an abusive pattern, you think an investigation is warranted. I (and some others) think if there's ANY room for the possibility that this parent is really stressed and doesn't normally berate and belittle her children 24/7, we'd rather respect the family's privacy and butt out (unless we see a way to befriend and help the family).

I'm glad you know at least one family that was investigated by CPS without being traumatized -- but even you say you "know many who have had terrible experiences." Which experience do you think is more common?


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
neither of these even comes anywhere close to the legal definition of abuse.

Cry it out is legal, sitting in your back yard while your kids are awake is legal (they were probably in cribs and therefore reletively safe), and swearing at your kids is perfectly legal.

not nice. but legal.

there is no point in reporting any of this.

true. when I worked with people with handicaps, I was told that a coworker telling one to 'get her a$$ out of the car' was not legally considered abusive.

I can't fathom the earplug thing, but I agree with you it's abusive, just not enough to get CPS to do anything about it.

I am still fighting swearing around my kids. After working in warehouses and bars I noticed you almost become immune to foul language when you hear it all the time. It's a constant battle.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

I'm having trouble finding a reputable site that discusses verbal abuse as a crime under law. Could someone point me to a link?


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Look under the state by state statures about child abuse. Verbal abuse is a form of abuse. Many states talk about emotional, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse in their statues about child abuse, and also about varying degrees of neglect. You could also look up the laws on emancipation which sometimes talk about those things.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
Look under the state by state statures about child abuse. Verbal abuse is a form of abuse. Many states talk about emotional, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse in their statues about child abuse, and also about varying degrees of neglect. You could also look up the laws on emancipation which sometimes talk about those things.

In my state, verbal abuse fits within the category of emotional abuse, and is simply referred to as "verbal abuse and belittlement." It seems nonspecific enough to allow room for an observer to make his/her own judgment call as to whether there's an actual pattern of "verbal abuse and belittlement" -- or whether there's ANY possibility we may just be witnessing a stressed-out incident that doesn't reflect the parent's usual behavior.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
But you can't know whether it was a really bad day or if it happens all the time just from observing. Some would thus do nothing, and some would do something. It depends on what you think is the better option personally. Having been verbally abused I might have a different opinion on the matter than you, in that situation, about which would be better, you know?

True. Having never personally seen CPS make a positive difference in anyone's life, and having seen them make a negative difference in _many_ lives, my views will probably be different than yours. Without some really solid indications that someone is being abusive - physically, emotionally, sexually, verbally, I choose not to call CPS down on them and their families. Every child I've seen deal with CPS has had a really bad time. None of them had great parents...but none of them were any better off for the investigation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bigeyes* 
I am still fighting swearing around my kids. After working in warehouses and bars I noticed you almost become immune to foul language when you hear it all the time. It's a constant battle.









Yeah - I started swearing "like a longshoreman" (as I was told repeatedly) when I was about 13. Then, I got an office job and it got worse. It took me a _lot_ of work to break the habit of swearing around - or even at - ds1. At that time, "get in the f'ing car" was no different to me than "get in the car" in a slightly impatient tone of voice. Since I didn't want ds1 to speak the same way, I trained myself out of it...but it took time.


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