# Is this a mama bear response or is it rational? (update post 52)



## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

A couple weeks ago my freind was here with her 2 daughters. all the kids were playing in my kids' room.
Then all of a sudden my son was screaming crying. Both of us rushed in.
Turns out according to all kids involved...no denials
That the 2 girls pushed my son off the bed b/c they didn't want him playing. He was shoved by both girls and hit his head.

My friend took her girls out of the room to speak to them. I'm not sure what she was saying.

I was comforting Michael while my DD told me, "they pushed him right off the bed and laughed about it"

All kids involved agree this is a true story.

When I go out into the living room my friend is finishing up her talk with her DD and was kind of leading her into apologizing but her DD didn't want to.

My friend mouths to me, "we don't believe in forced apologies"
which I already know...we discuss discipline all the time. I am generally the one to introduce the latest book recommendations here from MDC to her.
I know all about it.

however I am still pissed that while she may not believe in forced apologies I think it would be right that she, as the mother, should have apologized for her girls.

I do not know however if that is rational thinking. I am quite hurt that she wouldn't say, "I'm sorry they hurt him"

He was really hurt and it was no gentle, "move it" it was a shove.

BTW we are going to her house on Friday and I do not want to leave my son alone to play with them but I don't know if I am just being over zealous.


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## CindyZ (May 22, 2007)

We don't do forced apologies either. I do explain to my son about how apologies can make each person feel and ask him if he would like to apologize. If he chooses not to, I do apologize. I don't take responsibility for the action but I might say something to the effect that I'm sorry that they were hurt. I do this not only because I WOULD actually feel sorry that this happened but to be a role model for my son. After I apologize, I might point out how it made the other child feel a little better, etc. in hopes that it will help him to see the process in action so he can understand it better.

It's hard on us when our child is hurt, but we don't know what she said to her daughter or what she may have said later, etc. Hopefully they processed the incident and talked about it using whatever style they are most comfortable with and it won't happen again. If something like this does happen again, I would sit with her out of hearing range from the children and brain storm about what you can all do together to prevent it from happening in the future.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Ha! well they may not believe in forced apologies but I dont believe in violent behaviour going on without consequences. I think you are having a rational mama bear response, myself. I have told other peoples children, in a serious tone, that being aggressive with my child is not okay and if they are not able to behave decently they will not be playing with her. I've done this actually when apologies have been forced but mumbled insincerely and I have not felt this to be adequate (no true remorse demonstrated, no other consequence, repeated violent behaviour from the child). I feel it's my job to protect my kid... it is true it's the other mama's place to deal with her child, but if she is not doing it, I will let the child know what I will and will not tolerate... mostly for the benefit of my own child who needs and deserves my protection, but also to let the other child know what's what and what they can expect from me if they dont change their behaviour.

If my kid were repeatedly or callously violent with a friend, she would get seriously lectured and told an apology is in order. I would definitely offer one if she did not, and I would let her know that if the behaviour happens again, she can expect xyz to happen (no more playtime, have to sit with me, etc). I would tell her that in front of the other child, because I think a child who has been treated poorly by a friend who doesn't feel badly needs to see some kind of justice being done.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't do forced apologies either.

BUT, I would have apologised for my kids. "I'm sorry they did that". Because that would have been true. I would have been mortified and been apologising all over myself. I might have even offered to buy him his first car.

My child probably wouldn't even have been sorry. She would have justified it somehow.

So, My job as a parent is to make sure it never happens again, and make sure that the injured child is O.K and knows that at least *I* care how he feels.

And my child wouldn't have been going back into the bedroom again.


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Ha! well they may not believe in forced apologies but I dont believe in violent behaviour going on without consequences.

Yep. Although the other mom wants to let her children have their own authentic reactions (no forced apologies, etc.) don't forget that YOU also get the privilege of having your own authentic reactions. In a calm and adult way, you can go ahead and let that mama bear roooaaaar!


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

Your response is rational.
How old are the girls? I think when the other mom mouthed that they "don't do forced apologies", I would have been tempted to mouth "We don't play with kids who intentionally hurt others and then laugh about it.'
I have a dear friend whose children are pretty aggressive and she practices a very hands off parenting. It can be really difficult to deal with sometimes. Good luck.


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## nathansmum (Nov 13, 2003)

I'm wondering if she's just lacking a strategy for that situation? I know when I first read unconditional parenting and it confirmed my desire to not do forced apologies, that I was stuck on what to do in a situation (or forgot in the heat of the moment). It may be a case of not knowing what to do and her just focusing on meeting their needs rather than looking at the entire situation and why she isn't forcing apologies. If she's not modelling apologies herself then she is missing the point of kids learning by those around them. I'd tend to put it down to oversite and perhaps caught up in the moment. Are you able to have an open discussion about it since you seem to share similar philosophies anyway?


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

The girls are 5 1/2 and just turned 4. They have this thing about playing with boys and it really drives me batty b/c my little boy is so sweet and I hear them say, "we don't want Michael to play b/c he's a boy"

In my house no one is allowed to exclude anyone from the game. you may excuse yourself to play alone but you may not alienate anyone from the group game and it breaks my heart to hear them say those things.

hopefully as a PP poster pointed out they discussed it more at length at home and things will go smoother at this visit...if not she and I will need to talk about it b/c I can't have my son being picked on.

BTW nextcommercial your car comment cracked me up b/c that is exactly what I would be doing.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Can you tell them, "We dont exclude people based on gender" ?







Coz I think that sucks and i would never tolerate that from my girl. What does the other mama think about the gender trashing? IMO that is not cool at all.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I would have playdates at playgrounds or other public places where I could watch my child, and he could have fun without the two girls. Excluding him and then pushing him when he is so much younger is really intolerable.
When my DD pushes or hits I apologise for her and we leave. I have a 'if you can't play nice, you can't play' policy. I really feel it's a natural consequence for violent behavior. My DD is only 27 months. I would think I'd have alot higher expectations in two and three years.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I also don't do forced apologies, but *I* would be VERY sorry and *I* would have said so. And *I* would control my kid in the future or keep them home. Mama bear response AND rational, IMO.


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## cinnamongrrl (Dec 30, 2007)

In another current thread in GD about an aggressive child of a friend who consistently hurts the poster's child on playdates, there are a few posters that touch on the idea of parents who don't seem to empathize when their child hurts others. I have to agree for the most part based on my experience: there are a lot of parents of aggressive kids who probably contribute a great deal to their child's problems with aggression. They tend to minimize their child's aggression, are more concerned about protecting the feelings of their aggressive kid instead of physically protecting the victim, and cannot seem to understand why the hurt child and hurt child's mother are so upset. I really don't know why this is, but I've seen it over and over, and when my kids were little, I just stopped hanging out with people who had aggressive kids. Some parents will argue with this, saying that socializing the aggressive kid is what's best. But, they expect you to offer up your child to be hit, bit, and smacked around, in the interest of socializing their child. They seem to not want to be the "bad guy" to their child so they sort of try to get everyone else to take on the responsibility for fixing their aggressive child.

Better to send the aggressive child to preschool, where the teachers are trained to handle the problem, and there won't be the kinds of hurt feelings that occur between friends when one child is aggressive. The funny thing is, I have really liked the moms of the aggressive kids I've known. The moms tend to be kind and nice people, just the kind you'd want as friends. But they seem to lack the personal power to effectively manage their kids' aggression.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamongrrl* 
I my experience: there are a lot of parents of aggressive kids who probably contribute a great deal to their child's problems with aggression. They tend to minimize their child's aggression, are more concerned about protecting the feelings of their aggressive kid instead of physically protecting the victim, and cannot seem to understand why the hurt child and hurt child's mother are so upset. I really don't know why this is, but I've seen it over and over, and when my kids were little, I just stopped hanging out with people who had aggressive kids. Some parents will argue with this, saying that socializing the aggressive kid is what's best. Funny thing is, they expect you to offer up your child to be hit, bit, and smacked around, in the interest of socializing their child. They seem to not want to be the "bad guy" to their child so they sort of try to get everyone else to take on the responsibility for fixing their aggressive child.

ITA, this has been my experience too. It gets on my nerves. We need some literature or something for dealing with this gently but still *effectively*. Like it's nice and fine and all to say we dont do apologies (can't remember what book that is from) but how about actually dealing effectively then? Some suggestions would be good, I think they must be absent in the GD literature because a lot of my well read friends totally suck on this front.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I would NOT allow the 3 of them to play in another room- they need to stay withing sight of the parents at all times. The girls have proven that they're not responsible enough to play with your DS unsupervised.

Had my girls ever done something like that, we would have gone home immeditately. I wouldn't have forced an apology either, but neither would I have continued the playdate when my kids were hurting others.

I think you need to talk to this mom about the situation before going over there on Friday. Agree on some ground rules to keep all the kids safe (no playing in another room, her girls told not to exclude your DS based on his gender, etc.) or cancell the playdate. Let the other mom realize that there are "natural consequences" to ignoring her children's aggression.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't have forced an apology, but I would have been MORTIFIED. I would have been apologizing up and down!

I think natural reactions are good. That's part of the learning process. So long as you aren't freaking out and scaring kids, seeing that it makes you angry to have your kid get hurt, and seeing that the mom is embarrassed and angry that her kids hurt someone else (and then laughed about it), teaches how our actions impact other people.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I dont force apologies either - they are pointless then!
But I certainly do apologise for my son behaviour if it needs it! - I am often saying 'I am so sorry that happened...'


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't have my daughter do forced apologies but I do apologize for her if she does something that needs an apology. I agree with mamazee totally on this one. I am a little surprised this mama wasn't totally embarassed about what happened. If they tend to be violent a lot like that with no response from anyone then I think you probably should make it a habit to have your child stay in the same room you are in so that he can stay safe. The bigger they get the more damage physical fighting can do especially when it is two against one.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't have my daughter do forced apologies but I do apologize for her if she does something that needs an apology. If it was my daughter I would have made it very clear that her actions were wrong, especially laughing at a hurt friend, and we would have left immediately and gone straight home after I apologized to the child and made sure the child was okay.

I am a little surprised this mama wasn't totally embarassed about what happened. If they tend to be violent a lot like that with no response from anyone then I think you probably should make it a habit to have your child stay in the same room you are in so that he can stay safe. The bigger they get the more damage physical fighting can do especially when it is two against one.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I dont force apologies but I also don't apologize for something someone else has done. I might apologize that I wasn't there to prevent what happened if my kids had a habit of such behavior, but really this kinda stuff happens all the time in this age group so I dont see why she should be mortified. If you feel more comfortable supervising closely, then of course you should do that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Do you think it's acceptable though for older children to push a toddler off a bed? And he hits his head? Because he is a boy?

Because there is no forced apology, it's just 'oh well they do that kind of thing?' If it were my kid I would be mortified for sure. Yes they do sometimes do that kind of thing, but they do it more if we dont act like it's seriously wrong and a mortifying thing to be doing. Parental response is what helps kids learn. Shrugging your shoulders will teach that it is no big deal.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I was under the impression that the girls were one year older and the mom pulled them aside and had a talk with them and didnt just shrug her shoulders.

I wouldve done something similar and also made a big deal to my kids that the boy is hurt. If it happened again we would leave and have a strong talk about why.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Parental response is what helps kids learn. Shrugging your shoulders will teach that it is no big deal.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
I was under the impression that the girls were one year older and the mom pulled them aside and had a talk with them and didnt just shrug her shoulders.

I wouldve done something similar and also made a big deal to my kids that the boy is hurt. If it happened again we would leave and have a strong talk about why.

Kids are 4 and 5 and the toddler is 2 I think? Mom had a talk with them that the OP didn't witness and we have no idea what was said, and this behaviour is ongoing and the kids laughed after the little one got hurt which I find disturbing.

I would not be satisfied with what happened were I this little one's mama.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

ok I think this pregnancy has clouded my brain and I need to reread this thread. For some reason I thought the boy was 4 and there was no toddler involved. Im confused. From the op it seemed like the mom did handle the situation and the issue was lack of apology.


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## JoyNChrist (Oct 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I think natural reactions are good. That's part of the learning process. So long as you aren't freaking out and scaring kids, seeing that it makes you angry to have your kid get hurt, and seeing that the mom is embarrassed and angry that her kids hurt someone else (and then laughed about it), teaches how our actions impact other people.

I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. This makes SO much sense to me.

My DS is only 12 months, but I've really just started thinking and reading about discipline and paying attention to how other people discipline their children (hoping to have some sort of game plan as things come up with my child). One of the things I've noticed at the playgroup I attend (which has kids from birth to age 5) is how "fake" most of the parents' reactions to violence are (both when their child is the aggressive one and when their child is the victim).

Moms of the victims seem to not want to express their anger that their child was hurt in fear of upsetting the child who hit (or bit or whatever) and/or his or her mother. This seems so wrong - it's like in an effort to be polite and not upset anyone, they're denying their own feelings and the feelings of their child (who has every right to be upset). And the moms of the aggressive children seem to either ignore the behavior, force their child to make an insincere apology, or enforce a totally unrelated punishment ("no snack" or "you can't play on the slide" when the incident had nothing to do with either activity).

I think the issue here is that the kids don't understand why their action was inappropriate, because they don't see the natural consequences of that action.

For example, Tommy bites Jacob on the arm. What Tommy should see is that Jacob will cry, and maybe not want to play with Tommy anymore. Jacob's mommy is upset that her child was hurt. And Tommy's mom explains to him that it's not nice to bite people because it hurts them and makes them unhappy, and maybe Tommy should play close to her so she can make sure he doesn't hurt anyone again. Tommy also sees his mommy apologize to Jacob and Jacob's mommy, and sees that she's upset and embarrassed about the incident.

Tommy learns that biting is not okay because it hurts your friends, upsets their parents and your mommy, and limits your freedom to play wherever you want because your mom has to keep a closer eye on you.

But instead what Tommy sees is that Jacob cries, but Jacob's mommy smiles and hugs Jacob, telling him that he's okay (so obviously it's not a very big deal). Tommy's mommy makes Tommy tell Jacob he's sorry, then Jacob is forced to hug him or say "that's okay". Then Tommy's mommy tells Tommy that he can't have go to storytime because he can't play nice.

So what Tommy learns is the he can bite someone, say he's sorry, and nobody's upset and he can do whatever he wants, except go to storytime (which has nothing to do with the inappropriate behavior so the punishment isn't understood or seen as a consequence of his action anyway). And Jacob learns that his feelings are downplayed or ignored and his mommy apparently doesn't care if people hurt him.

Okay, sorry to write a book there, but what you said really made a lot of sense to me based on the things I see at playgroup all the time. I'm learning so much here!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

If you look at the OPs siggie the boy is 2... almost 3 actually now that I look again. For me the age makes it worse but even if they were the same age I would be disturbed. The kids hurt the other kid, laughed about it, it's repeated behaviour, and they didn't want to apologize. That for me indicates repeated aggression and lack of remorse.

What do you do with that? It doesn't sound like the mama has dealt with it effectively in the past, or it wouldn't be happening again. The kids got no consequence, the OP wasn't apologized to, nor her son. She wasnt told what was said to the girls or what would be done to prevent this in future.

What in this scenario makes it seem this has been addressed effectively? That it wont just recur next time? This issue really bugs me because I have friends whose kids do this and whose responses are very similar to the OPs friend. And I'm supposed to just say oh well? Not good enough IMO. I have a responsibility to protect my kid from aggression and I dont feel I'm meeting that responsibility if I just let this kind of thing happen again and again. Which is where I really ID with the OPs 'mama bear' response. I think 'mama bear' is a good thing.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

xposted...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoyNChrist* 
One of the things I've noticed at the playgroup I attend (which has kids from birth to age 5) is how "fake" most of the parents' reactions to violence are (both when their child is the aggressive one and when their child is the victim).

Moms of the victims seem to not want to express their anger that their child was hurt in fear of upsetting the child who hit (or bit or whatever) and/or his or her mother. This seems so wrong - it's like in an effort to be polite and not upset anyone, they're denying their own feelings and the feelings of their child (who has every right to be upset). And the moms of the aggressive children seem to either ignore the behavior, force their child to make an insincere apology

Yes!! What you write here has been my experience. For me a forced apology isn't really the point, I know a kid whose mother makes him apologize, it's great for him as he just has to mumble 'I'm sorry' and run back to playing until the next incident. There has to be some effective parental response, and/or I would like to feel it's okay to actually show the child that I am angry with them without 'treading' on the mama's discipline territory or having my friends think I'm being too harsh with their precious babies. I wouldn't feel compelled to do that if the mama spoke with anger and had a natural response, but this singy songy bs just doesnt cut it and i dont want to participate in that by also being sing song or just silent.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

_Someone_ should have apologized to this boy! If the children refused to apology, then the mother should know to apologize, because an apology is both appropriate and necessary in this situation, and because it models the appropriate response. And mostly because the poor boy deserves an apology!

A couple other points:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It doesn't sound like the mama has dealt with it effectively in the past, or it wouldn't be happening again. .

Well, not necessarily ime. Sometimes it takes time. But, if this is repetitive behavior, then these girls need much better supervision.

And one last thing about not wanting the boy to play.....ITA agree about not excluding ds because he is a boy. But I see from your siggy that you also have a dd closer to the age of these girls. IME, some of these conflicts can come from kids just really wanting time to play in specific groups (best friends, like-aged, similar interests, etc). I don't know if this is the case, but if ds is _always_ around when the girls play, they might just really want some time to play alone together (and not know how to achieve that appropriate way). It might help to arrange some playdates that are just for the girls, while you do something special with your son. Then you could explain to the girls that, when all the children are together, they may not exclude ds--but they will have a chance to play alone together on X occasions.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jokerama* 
I dont force apologies but I also don't apologize for something someone else has done.

Hmmm....I don't see apologizing when my child hurts another child as apologizing for something someone else has done. I see it as expressing compassion for the hurt the other child has experienced. Similar to how I might say "I'm so sorry" to a friend when they experience a hurt. I don't say "I'm sorry I pushed you off the bed", lol, cause I didn't push the child off the bed. But I would say "I'm sorry dds pushed you off the bed and you got hurt." And if my dc were the pushed child, I would say "I'm sorry _____ pushed you off the bed and you got hurt."


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

So the MOM didn't apologize in any way??? If that is the case, then she is not someone I'd be spending much time with in the future. She can parent without forced apologies - although I prefer to think of it as expected apologies, when you hurt someone whether on purpose or accident - but SHE should have apologized for the fact that her kids hurt yours, that he was shoved and laughed at. Her four and five year olds may or may not know better - though if they don't know better at that age, I'd frankly be a bit concerned - but SHE does. All kids agree that the story is what happened. I'd call her and let her know that you are disappointed that she didn't apologize for what happened. "I'm so sorry that happened!" is all it would have taken, then she could discuss further with her kids at home.

And a pp mentioned that the mother of the two girls may have been focused on her own children's needs at that point. I'm not sure their needs should be primary when a 2 year old has been pushed off a bed and been hurt and laughed at. Regardless of which mother you are, first you check to see that the hurt child is going to be ok, and THEN you go to the girls to discuss.

I have three kids now. When I had just one, I reacted more strongly to stuff like this. Now I've seen a lot of kid behavior over the past decade plus, and am not as quick to get "mama bear". But in the OP's situation, the girls were wrong to have pushed a much younger child (wrong at any age but worse when he is little) off the bed and laughed at him. The mom should have apologized to both the OP and her son, and more parental supervision for the remainder of the playdate if it continued at that point. Did it?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Hmmm....I don't see apologizing when my child hurts another child as apologizing for something someone else has done. I see it as expressing compassion for the hurt the other child has experienced. Similar to how I might say "I'm so sorry" to a friend when they experience a hurt. I don't say "I'm sorry I pushed you off the bed", lol, cause I didn't push the child off the bed. But I would say "I'm sorry dds pushed you off the bed and you got hurt." And if my dc were the pushed child, I would say "I'm sorry _____ pushed you off the bed and you got hurt."









:

And the gender exclusion sux. I have an active dd and have been through it from the other direction.

I think it's perfectly okay to explain that it's hurting your son's feelings when they talk about him that way.

I ended up asking a couple of the hardest cases of boys saying girls are xyz and so they are yucky to play with....What *do* you like about playing with dd...it headed the conversation onto a more positive track with them.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

I don't have time to do a long post but........

I don't beleive in forced apologies either BUT, if my child is the aggressor I beleive he needs to learn the consequences for his/her behavior. I will take him over to the hurt child and point out that the child is hurt/injured/crying, and that it is NOT OK to hurt another person. I the ask my child what they can do to fix this. So I guess I am forcing the issue a bit, but I want my child to learn from the experience, and I want the injured child's feelings to be validated. My children are still learning, but they always find some sort of solution to try to amend for their actions.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Kids are 4 and 5 and the toddler is 2 I think? Mom had a talk with them that the OP didn't witness and we have no idea what was said, and this behaviour is ongoing and the kids laughed after the little one got hurt which I find disturbing.

I would not be satisfied with what happened were I this little one's mama.

Hmmm, is the aggressive behavior ongoing or just the exclusion? I don't agree with either one, but if it's the first time that they've been aggressive, then I would be more open to continued contact. With certain caveats, of course.

Forced apologies do nothing. But after talking with my children privately, I would have assured the mom and her son that we don't tolerate that kind of behavior. Then I would have separated the kiddos, and made it clear that it was something that I was going to work on preventing in the future.

Having three kiddos who are older (7.5, 4.5, and 2.5), and lots of friends with children of similar ages, I have to say that the particular combination of two sisters of their ages and a toddler/preschool boy in their room probably isn't ideal. It does not excuse the behavior, the exclusionary attitude, or the mother's lack of an appropriate response, but it isn't totally realistic, either. Older children can be fickle in their tolerance for having younger ones around. If I were the OP, I would occupy my son with something else, or go to a park. This particular play date sounds more appropriate for your dd and yourself.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

I feel like I'm missing something here . . .

First I must state that we clamp down on violence and try to send a strong message to our kids about how to keep things peaceful. They are great outside of our house . . . with each other it is a different story. ANYWAY.

What exactly is your goal here? I would assume it is to have your child be able the girls and not get beat on. From what you are saying though, it sounds like you want the mom and the girls to feel ashamed of what they did.

So if it is the former and not the latter, I would have different hopes. I would hope that the mom would comfort your son and model to the girls how to be caring. I would hope it would highlight to the mom that she can't sit and chat when you are over to play, but needs to work with her girls to include your son in the play. I would hope that she encourages them about it outside of the playdate too.

If it is the latter, then a forced apology may or may not achieve that.

I think you have been put on alert that you need to monitor the play and teach the girls how to interact positively too.

Laughing can and may not be a sign of bad intent. Often my kids laugh when they are nervous or scared.

Anyway, I feel like I'm missing something because there seems to be a focus on blame and not on working on the friendship.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

Do you think it's acceptable though for older children to push a toddler off a bed? And he hits his head? Because he is a boy?

Because there is no forced apology, it's just 'oh well they do that kind of thing?' If it were my kid I would be mortified for sure. Yes they do sometimes do that kind of thing, but they do it more if we dont act like it's seriously wrong and a mortifying thing to be doing. Parental response is what helps kids learn. Shrugging your shoulders will teach that it is no big deal.
I agree. We don't do forced apologies (though I will suggest to them that "it would be a good idea to apologize"). But if my kids are aggressive or intentionally hurt someone, we leave immediately.

I've had problems with my now-3-year-old biting _badly_ when he was younger. It was awful - horribly painful for the other kids, very embarrassing for me, put a strain on my friendships with other moms.

We decided our solution would be to leave _immediately_ if it happened.

Now, when we go places, I remind my kids of the "rules":

- Be gentle
- Be polite


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almama* 
*I think you have been put on alert that you need to monitor the play and teach the girls how to interact positively too.
*
Laughing can and may not be a sign of bad intent. Often my kids laugh when they are nervous or scared.

Anyway, I feel like I'm missing something because there seems to be a focus on blame and not on working on the friendship.

I do agree with this. Especially the part I bolded. Younger children (5-6 and under, depending on personality and circumstances) cannot be expected to play in a consistently civilized manner with all children all of the time without some periodic adult input -- I think that as parents, we tend to stop checking in on our kiddos a little early. This is particularly important when 2-3 year olds are playing with children only slightly older than themselves (4-5 year olds), and when they're on one or more of the children's home turf, so to speak.


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## mommy_e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
... The kids hurt the other kid, laughed about it, it's repeated behaviour, and they didn't want to apologize. That for me indicates repeated aggression and lack of remorse. ...

In several places you say that the laughing and lack of remorse are "disturbing" to you. What is this based on?

It has been asked here in the past if inappropriate laughter is a problem and the consensus usually is that it is a nervous or scared reaction from many kids. The lack of (visible) remorse is also something that I'm not sure how you expect it to be handled. Just as an apology can't be forced, I can't see how you can force a 4-5 yo to be truely remorseful, or any age child for that matter. The gender exclusion, while disturbing to adults because we are so attuned to it, is not abnormal at an age where they are starting to understand gender identities.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
... What do you do with that? It doesn't sound like the mama has dealt with it effectively in the past, or it wouldn't be happening again. The kids got no consequence, the OP wasn't apologized to, nor her son. She wasnt told what was said to the girls or what would be done to prevent this in future.

I don't see that the kids didn't get a consequence. One of the books most often recommended here (which one escapes me, "Secret of Parenting", maybe?) goes into this extensively and says that just showing parental disapproval is "doing something" about it. We don't know what the other parent said, but it is doubtful that she was encouraging the behavior, especially since she was trying to get her to apologize.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
...What in this scenario makes it seem this has been addressed effectively? That it wont just recur next time? This issue really bugs me because I have friends whose kids do this and whose responses are very similar to the OPs friend. And I'm supposed to just say oh well? Not good enough IMO. I have a responsibility to protect my kid from aggression and I dont feel I'm meeting that responsibility if I just let this kind of thing happen again and again. Which is where I really ID with the OPs 'mama bear' response. I think 'mama bear' is a good thing.

I think the other mom in the original post should have apologized in some form for what happened. Without knowing every single interaction that has ever occured between these people, it is hard to say if it just slipped her mind, if it never occured to her or she really doesn't feel that she should. To give her the benefit of the doubt, I'll go with it slipped her mind unless the OP thinks otherwise.

As far as it happening again... Obviously, one or more of the girls is not old enough to be left alone with the toddler. Ideally, the other mom will see this and arrange things at the next playdate so that there is adequate supervision. If not, the OP needs to figure out how to make that happen.

Some of this also comes down to what is considered a 'big' reaction from an individual. I have a very wide range in my emotions and my kids are used to that and know when I am very upset about something. I have bigger reactions than most people many times, though I am trying hard to tone it down.

My mother, on the other hand has a very narrow range. For her a quiet serious tone is all that will tell you she is totally ticked off, my kids also know that that is Grandma's sign they have gone too far. If someone saw her talk with my DS after doing something like this they may not think that she had done "enough" where to my DS it would be very clear that his behavior was unacceptable. Would he immediately change and be compliant? Not necessarily, because he is only 4.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't get to decide what is an appropriate reaction by someone else. I can only control my side of the equation by making sure in the future that I don't allow that situation and by reacting toward my child in the way I feel is appropriate (empathizing, attention to the victim, etc.). If it becomes a repeated thing that is a hassle to plan around I would re-think getting together with that person with the kids around. Other than the gender exclusion thing, it doesn't sound like this is a repeated behavior from the OP.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

The playdates can not really be seperated for just girls. We live about 40 min from each other. they all are growing up together. Other mom and I met when our oldest girls were just months old so I feel they should play kindly together or at least be helped to do so.
It does infuriate me (mama bear maybe not rational) when the other girls want to seperate out DS.
JoyNchrist your post was right on the money...I see all the time and I know I have been guilty of the whispered, "he's ok" to the other mother whose child hurt mine to alleviate that uncomfortable feeling.
We don't force apologies here but it is high on the list of ways to make ammends along with,
Offer your hand if knock someone down accidentally or if you see them fall
Ask, "are you ok?'
If you feel sorry it is important to say it.

More to come...Ds wants to type


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Not as extreme, but DD (almost 3) bonked a friend on the head with a small toy last week, and when I told her to apologize she said no. So I apologized, and I gave her friend a hug. Once I did that DD walked over, apologized, and hugged her friend too.

I don't know if she really didn't want to apologize, or did she not understand that I wanted her to say sorry, or what. But it would never occur to me not to apologize for unacceptable behavior--hers, mine, ours...

Also, I know that on of my good friends has a little boy who is a handful, and after a while it looked to me like she was getting "numbed" to his behavior, so there might be an element of that to it as well--it doesn't excuse your friend but it might give you some insight into what she's dealing with.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

: mommy e! What an _excellent_ post. It is not the parent's _responsibilty_ to apologize to the other kiddo, BUT I would have said something along the lines of "You got hurt and that's upsetting. I wish that hadn't happened." IMO, it is unhealthy to apologize for something we didn't do AND it may send the message to our DC that we should fix their mistakes. Not empowering. Without having witnessed the event, we cannot know what really happened no matter what the kids say. Even adults, well educated, rational, sober adults notoriously misreport events. There are just too many confounding factors like remorse, fear of punishment (yes, even kids who are never ever punished will say this!), and just plain kid-ness. I wouldn't take it personally.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I agree with mommy e and laoxinat.


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

I am sorry that the OP is dealing with this situation, but I think this is turning into a great thread. I am learning a lot from this discussion.

I've had the situation of having two older preschoolers exclude/pick on a younger child in my dayhome more than once.

It was really shocking to me the first time I figured out something like this was going on, especially since my then 5-yr-old dd was one of the bullies







. I can empathize with the mom's (possibly inadequate) immediate reaction to her daughters' behavior. Sometimes we really aren't sure in the heat of the moment what the right thing to do is, and it is hard when strategies we used to use (like maybe the not forcing apologies) might not be enough anymore.

I define exclusion, and two or more children hurting another and laughing about it as bullying behavior. This is a very different from a fight over a toy.... with preschoolers, especially, it doesn't mean that the kids involved are "bad" kids....just that it is time to start teaching them more about empathy and friendship skills that maybe they haven't been ready for before.

I agree that laughing in this situation could very well have been a nervous reaction....but it is not an appropriate one, either. It is important for children to learn that we don't laugh when someone is hurt, before it *does* turn into true contempt for the pain of others. This is something I am working on when a child is crying in my home for whatever reason -- I don't want to hear "I didn't do it!" or "He took my car!" or anything else besides "Are you ok? Can I help you?" and I'm trying to teach the little ones I look after that the only appropriate response when someone is hurt is compassion and help. And, yes, for me, that might sound like "I'm so sorry you are hurt!"

Reading Barbara Coloroso's, The Bully, the Bullied and the Bystander, made a huge difference in how I approach situations like this. I now feel that a situation like this with very young children is actually a golden opportunity for parents to start considering bullying issues and how to handle them, how to "bully-proof" their child and community.

It is important to start teaching the child being bullied to stand up for himself, to start teaching the children doing the bullying to use their power and leadership potential to help others, not hurt them, and to start teaching all children and adults who might witness a situation like this how important it is to not tolerate bullying when they see it happening....but also to work together to create a safe and positive environment of empathy for others where bullying CAN'T happen.

"Bully" is a very strong word, and I don't think it would be useful for the OP to
use it in discussion with her friend about her friend's children! But I do think that a calm discussion about how that situation was unfortunate and awkward for everyone, and maybe it's time to start teaching all of their children that one can always play alone but excluding others from a group is not ok, and that when another is hurt we have to help them, etc. would be very appropriate. If it were me, I'd ask my friend's advice on how to prevent a situation like this happening again, and listen to what she says.

It is important to start teaching older toddlers to ask an adult for help if they are having trouble playing with older children, too, so maybe the OP's child could start learning a useful strategy as well... he needs the protection of adults, but also to learn that he has ways to protect himself, too.

I have a baby monitor that I use when children are playing in a room slightly away from me. I can sit in the kitchen with a friend and keep an ear tuned to problems in another room. Not useful for younger toddlers who might hit almost spontaneously, but great for more verbal older children who need help sharing and playing well with others. If the layout of the home makes supervision of play spaces a little awkward, then maybe a tool like this might help in the OP's situation.


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
I've had problems with my now-3-year-old biting _badly_ when he was younger. It was awful - horribly painful for the other kids, very embarrassing for me, put a strain on my friendships with other moms.

We decided our solution would be to leave _immediately_ if it happened.


"Leaving immediately" has been popping up alot as a suggestion for how moms can react when their little ones hurt others.

I am really wanting to learn more about natural consequences in these kinds of situations, as opposed to the random "no snack" type of punishment. But what do you do if your child is acting out BECAUSE they want to leave? Short of realizing what they're after and giving it to them BEFORE they get out of hand (not always possible), what do you do?

It's really a nasty situation- you can't give in to their wishes and go, 'cause that would teach them that hitting gets them what they want. But it also doesn't seem appropriate to stay, if things are going that badly. Any thoughts on this variation?


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## chaimom (Aug 22, 2007)

OK... so the mom doesn't do forced apologies, but was the mom not sorry herself that her daughters hurt the toddler? If she didn't feel the need to apologize, I would have problems with that.

Plus, I don't understand all the passive language moms have in apologizing on behalf of their children: "I'm sorry that happened; I'm sorry you got hurt." NO. That's not what happened. How about owning up to what happened and letting the offending child hear it: "I'm so sorry my child hit you. That was wrong." (Hug the hurt child) "What will make you feel better?" The hitter shouldn't have hit. If he doesn't feel the need to apologize, so be it. But he shouldn't be made to feel OK about hitting either. He needs to know his mom doesn't approve.

As far as no-snack consequences-- someone really does that?!







Natural consequences for the OP's incident would be leaving the playdate immediately (my choice). Or only being allowed to play within site of the parents, since they couldn't be trusted alone.

Also, I think in this instance the OP should seriously consider having a heart-to-heart with her friend by saying, "I love the relationship our daughters have, but I'm not sure we can continue the playdates if my son is excluded. I have to bring him along, so he needs to be able to play, too. If not, I'm afraid we can't come." It's possible the other mom thinks her daughters have a right to exclude the boy by any means possible (pushing him off the bed). And in that case, it gives the other mom the ability to back out of the playdate. Or if she accepts the "terms" of the playdate, she'll probably be more involved in coaching her daughters into more acceptable behavior.

Anyway, just MHO.

Best of luck resolving the situation.


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## hattifattener (Jan 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chaimom* 
As far as no-snack consequences-- someone really does that?!







Natural consequences for the OP's incident would be leaving the playdate immediately (my choice). Or only being allowed to play within site of the parents, since they couldn't be trusted alone.

Geeez! Nobody *I* know does!







I'm just asking what the natural consequence should be if leaving is what the misbehaving child wanted. Cause that wouldn't be much of a consequence, see?


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Ha! well they may not believe in forced apologies but I dont believe in violent behaviour going on without consequences. I think you are having a rational mama bear response, myself. I have told other peoples children, in a serious tone, that being aggressive with my child is not okay and if they are not able to behave decently they will not be playing with her. I've done this actually when apologies have been forced but mumbled insincerely and I have not felt this to be adequate (no true remorse demonstrated, no other consequence, repeated violent behaviour from the child). I feel it's my job to protect my kid... it is true it's the other mama's place to deal with her child, but if she is not doing it, I will let the child know what I will and will not tolerate... mostly for the benefit of my own child who needs and deserves my protection, but also to let the other child know what's what and what they can expect from me if they dont change their behaviour.

If my kid were repeatedly or callously violent with a friend, she would get seriously lectured and told an apology is in order. I would definitely offer one if she did not, and I would let her know that if the behaviour happens again, she can expect xyz to happen (no more playtime, have to sit with me, etc). I would tell her that in front of the other child, because I think a child who has been treated poorly by a friend who doesn't feel badly needs to see some kind of justice being done.

Wow, this is exactly what I would have done too.

FTR, I would have been pissed if a friends children treated my child that way. Someone owed the kid an apology. And if I didn't believe in making my kids apologize, then I would have been the one to apologize.

In fact, I would have stated, in front of my kids, how disappointed I was in their behavior and how sorry I was that they took this opportunity to treat your child this way.

I also would have been clear about how embarrassed I was that they thought it was okay to do such a mean thing to another child.

The mother of the offending children misbehaved in this case.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

I do believe in forced apologies. Some social skills require practice, just like saying please and thank you and the mortification involved when you realize you've hurt someone means a lot of kids get as upset as the chid they've hurt, or want to laugh it off.

I think learning to apologize is a wonderful skill and want my children to knowo
how to apologize.


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## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

I think what I don't like is that the announcement that we don't do forced apologies sounds like an anti-apology almost as in there will be no consequences for my child.

If I didn't force apologies, I don't think I would announce it at that particular time, maybe before the playdate would be more appropriate


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
The playdates can not really be seperated for just girls. We live about 40 min from each other. they all are growing up together. Other mom and I met when our oldest girls were just months old so I feel they should play kindly together or at least be helped to do so.
It does infuriate me (mama bear maybe not rational) when the other girls want to seperate out DS.


It might not be part of the issue at all, but, if having some "protected" time without ds helps them play kindly together _most_ of the time, it could be worth the effort. Why would it infuriate you if they want to play without ds sometimes? Excluding is unkind, yes. But desiring some time together without a 2 yo in the mix isn't nec unkind. And, ime, these relationships are fluid....the siblings that dd really wanted a "break" from when they were 2 or 3 are sometimes her favorite children to play with now that they are 4 or 5.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
It might not be part of the issue at all, but, if having some "protected" time without ds helps them play kindly together _most_ of the time, it could be worth the effort. Why would it infuriate you if they want to play without ds sometimes? Excluding is unkind, yes. But desiring some time together without a 2 yo in the mix isn't nec unkind. And, ime, these relationships are fluid....the siblings that dd really wanted a "break" from when they were 2 or 3 are sometimes her favorite children to play with now that they are 4 or 5.

The playdates last several hours usually b/c of the distance. So the kids are not all together all the time. sometimes we are reading books, sometimes they are outside, sometimes one kid is out with us while the others are doing something.
DS is part of the group. When the group is playing he should be a a part of it to the extent that he can play with them. He loves dress up and can play Barbies just easily as the girls. He isn't rough and actually is quite gentle. He is easy to play with b/c he'll do pretty much what you ask. (as he approaches 3 though this might all change







)
I do think it is better to teach them how to play together than accept that those girls just don't want to.

It's not like they have trouble playing b/c he is a toddler; they don't want to play with him b/c he is a boy and that makes me crazy. (and that might jsut be b/c i adore him and feel his sadness when they say don't want to play with him)

Quote:

"I love the relationship our daughters have, but I'm not sure we can continue the playdates if my son is excluded. I have to bring him along, so he needs to be able to play, too. If not, I'm afraid we can't come." It's possible the other mom thinks her daughters have a right to exclude the boy by any means possible (pushing him off the bed). And in that case, it gives the other mom the ability to back out of the playdate. Or if she accepts the "terms" of the playdate, she'll probably be more involved in coaching her daughters into more acceptable behavior.
I like the wording of this. I will use it if tomorrow we run into the same problems.
we haven't seen each other since then so we'll see.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Aubergine68,
your post is full of great advice. I am going to get that book from the library if only for the tools I would need in other later encounters as well. I read , "you can't say you can't play" which is not really about bullying so much as exclusionary play of children. It helped me feel better about teaching kids to play together rather than tell the cast off child to some and play with me (or whatever)


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

The playdate went really well. The mom either talked to them or else a long break from each other was needed.

Everyone played well together and the youngest girl kept offering Michael crackers...well until she said, "that's enough Michael " in her most grown up voice









At one point the 3 girls were downstairs and DS wanted to go too. I was walking him down and when they saw us the older one said, "hide a monster!!" At first I was ready to defend my son...but then I realized they meant me!!








All kids scurried into sleeping bags.









thanks for all the replies!


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words, hipumpkins! It is great to hear that your playdate went so well!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipumpkins* 
I read , "you can't say you can't play" which is not really about bullying so much as exclusionary play of children. It helped me feel better about teaching kids to play together rather than tell the cast off child to some and play with me (or whatever)

I haven't read that book, but requested it on interlibrary loan after seeing it mentioned in this forum. I look forward to reading it. I love the title, and avoiding exclusion is an issue I feel strongly about.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

My dd is 2.5, and not the most verbal, so I do apologize for her when she does something, or at least inquiry if the other child is ok if no one was hurt. I agree that the mother should have apologized for her girls' behavior, because even though she didn't do it, as a parent she is still responsible for their actions. I'm not saying it's her fault, just that she is responsible for what her child does.

Someone asked if leaving the park when their child was acting up in order to leave the park was giving in. Here is my take on it. I don't know how old the child is you are referring to, but I will use my daughter as an example. When it's bedtime, sometimes she just takes my hand, drags me to bed and says "bed" or "I wanna go to bed. Come on". But sometimes she gets whiny about it. Really whiny. Do I give in and take her to bed? Or deny the fact that she sounds overtired and leave her where she is because she's whiny and that's not the way to ask me? The way I see it, if I take her to bed, it's not giving in, because she has a legitimate need, but is simply not using her verbal skills. I remind her "If you want to go to bed, tell mommy you want bed" and take her there. If your child wants to leave the park, leave, but do tell him "We don't hit people, it hurts _[or whatever inappropriate action the child was doing]_ If you want to leave, please come and tell me." The child has a legitimate need (may be overstimulated, tired, hungry etc), but is either lacking the skills to express themselves or are just too overstimulated to remember. I see that moment as more of a teaching and reminding moment than one that needs natural consequences.


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