# anybody else turned off by 'force feeding'



## Mom2lilpeeps (Aug 19, 2006)

I have a friend who I adore but I have a really hard time keeping my mouth shut when I see her making her 3yo dd eat everything on her plate. We do dinner playdates and each time I find myself biting my tongue. Maybe I'm the one who has it all wrong but my little people are 'grazers'. They eat fruit and vegies all day long. We do try to do the three meals but pretty much I follow their cues in regards to when they eat. It's more like 5 or 6 little meals a day. My son does not like breakfast when he wakes up and when he is ready to eat lately he wants brocoli or 'neen beans' (green beans) for breakfast. Weird I guess but I give it to him.

I guess what bothers me is making children eat everything on their plate even if they don't like it and saying 2 or 3 more bites of whatever or they can't have desert. Worse, threatening spanking for not eating or various other offenses.

I suppose this is just my own thing but I have vivid recollection of having to eat what was on my plate and crying my way through meals. I vowed long ago when I was a child never to force my children to eat.

I feel providing healthy, kid friendly food(i.e. lots of finger foods) is the way to go. Neither one of my little people are adept with utensils and we don't force the issue. I figure by the time they go to college they will be able to use a knife/fork/spoon and have socially acceptable table manners. At almost 2 and almost 3 we just don't push it. I have been called too lenient and permissive in many areas including the food thing. We don't subscribe to an authoritarian parenting style so "making them listen" does not appeal to me.

Any other Mammas out there struggle with different parenting styles and biting your tongue?

Sorry if seems so 'scattered' I am doing a few things all at once. Sorry.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

Yes- not a fan of force feeding. I've even had a friend try to do "airplane" with my almost 3 yo! I knew my dd would just spit out what she didn't like (texture issues) so I let her do it, but I wouldn't again. I was a healthy size when I was little... then my stepmom had a "clean your plate" policy and I became very emotional about food and developed a weight problem. I think it's a horrible thing to do to children, to force them to eat.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom4emnxani* 
Maybe I'm the one who has it all wrong but my little people are 'grazers'. They eat fruit and vegies all day long. We do try to do the three meals but pretty much I follow their cues in regards to when they eat. It's more like 5 or 6 little meals a day.

I guess what bothers me is making children eat everything on their plate even if they don't like it and saying 2 or 3 more bites of whatever or they can't have desert. Worse, threatening spanking for not eating or various other offenses.

My kids are the same way. They "snack" around. We do have dinner,though,at usually around the same time every night. The only thing I ask them to do is try something if we are having something they have never tasted before. I will ask them once or twice,but certainly never force them to eat things they don't like. If they don't try it,they don't try it.








I'm sorry for your friend's kids. Spanking and threatening kids over not eating their dinner is just plain wrong.







:


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage* 
Yes- not a fan of force feeding. I've even had a friend try to do "airplane" with my almost 3 yo! .


my son who is 2 would even look at someone like "uh....are you dumb or something?







" He actually has used the term "dumb lady" before







:. It's just so funny when he says it I cna't say anything to him in the way of "that's not nice." Not to mention it's usually well warranted when he does say it....ok now i'm thread jacking

Anyhow, food is something I REFUSE to battle with. My kids are totally healthy. some days my son wants nothing but yogurt and bread with cubes of butter. Some days he eats like half a chicken for dinner with a ton of veggies.

I think it's a control issue....or just like they were raised so they figure that's how your supposed to do it.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Well, I try not to create food issues/struggles. But my 6 yo. is really testing my resolve lately, and I'm starting to get an inkling of compassion for families who do things differently!

Its hard when he decides he'd rather play than eat, and then he melts down because he is weak and hungry. Its hard when he decides to eat 6 pieces of cornbread and no protein, and is then hungry in the middle of the night.

But basically, yeah -- the whole "clean your plate" thing gets to me.


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## carolhagan (Oct 21, 2006)

As toddlers, my kids didn't have to eat if they didn't want to. The did have to at least taste something new. (You won't know if you like it if you don't try it) but even then if they refused, I didn't push. However, with older kids it gets a bit difficult. I had custody of my nephew (who was seven at the time) and he refused to eat anything. Everything was "gross", and all he wanted to eat was junk. Well, I was not going to let that happen. So, I made a deal with him. He would help me pick out the meals (from a selection, of course) and when it was time to eat, he got to pick how much he wanted on his plate. If he didn't want to eat it all, he didn't have to. I explained to him to start out with small portions and if he wanted more then more was available. This seem to work. He just wanted a little control over what he was putting into his body. Very understandable.


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## simplemama (Aug 8, 2006)

ok we are going through similar struggles but i have to ask, if you child does not eat anything nutritious (crackers) all day, where do you draw the line on gently disciplining them to learn to eat nutritious food before the desert? My almost 3 yo old just gets distracted so it does help to keep her focused so she is not starving and cranky later...


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## lotsofkids (Aug 25, 2006)

I offer a wide variety at each meal because I respect that my kids have different tastes. This means I have a vegetable, starch, and meat at each meal and everyone can choose what they want. I offer three meals and 2-3 snacks during the day, so no one is going hungry. I do not require they eat anything, but I do require they sit down at the table with the family during meal times. I hate, hate, hate force-feeding and I would have a hard time not saying anything. Food should not be about a power struggle. I respect when my kids aren't hungry, as I'm often not hungry either at "mealtimes" but I do not go and run to cupboard for crackers when they wont eat what I've made. I figure they'll eat next time.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplemama* 
ok we are going through similar struggles but i have to ask, if you child does not eat anything nutritious (crackers) all day, where do you draw the line on gently disciplining them to learn to eat nutritious food before the desert?

Not having any desserts available for a period of time, until her eating habits stabilize again?


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## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

I refuse to make food a battleground issue. I have so many food issues from growing up, and such a screwed-up view of eating, and even if I haven't fixed it for myself yet, I'm not inflicting that on my kids.

DD is definitely a grazer, and will ask for a snack or something in particular often throughout the day - and I offer something if she hasn't asked in a bit. I do keep track mentally of what she's had, and if I think she needs some protein or something, I'll offer that first, or suggest it instead of what she asked for, but if she's adamant about what she asked for (unless it's a "sometimes food", which we try to limit to once a day) she gets it. Now, if she asks for something specific, gets it, has one bite and then has a hissy for something else, we will have a chat about not wasting things and whether she'll eat more of what she asked for, or have it later in the day. But I don't force food, ever.

Protein is an issue with her because she is very seriously anti-meat. She will OCCASIONALLY eat fried chicken tenders when we're out (yes, I know, but dude!). She prefers fruits, veggies, dairy products, and carbs - many healthy things, but given that she's also a pretty picky eater, it can make a balanced diet harder to achieve. She won't eat nut butters or tofu or TVP - anything masquerading as meat is immediately rejected. So when I do get a protein source in front of her, I will admit to asking her to take another bite or two. But if she doesn't, she doesn't - I just ask because sometimes she'll get distracted before she's really eaten her fill, and a reminder brings her back to what she was doing.

Various people have tried to get her to eat everything on her plate. I say, oh, she knows when she's had enough, and then remove her plate ASAP so there's no more reason to keep after her.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I am not a fan of the forced to eat everything -- there is a lt i don't like either

butttttttttttttttttttttttt

on the far other side

is not there some good tot he routine fo "we eat three meals a day together, at these times, you will come to the table as a memeber of this family and be polite even if you chose not to eat"

rather than a whole house of parents and kids eating what they want, when they wasnt (no matter how good what they eat is)?

isn't there a social aspect to the meal as well as a purely nutrional aspect?

Thoughts?

aimee


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

The examples given in this thread are "food rules". They are far from "force feeding."

I'm not a fan of food rules either. But let's call it what it is. "Force feeding" is unnecessarily hyperbolic and triviliazes actual forms of abuse using food.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

is not there some good tot he routine fo "we eat three meals a day together, at these times, you will come to the table as a memeber of this family and be polite even if you chose not to eat"

rather than a whole house of parents and kids eating what they want, when they wasnt (no matter how good what they eat is)?

isn't there a social aspect to the meal as well as a purely nutrional aspect?
As a mom of "big kids" I have to say, there was no need to train them for this. Toddlers like to roam. Big kids value the routine and the ritual of family meals. They come because they choose to. They like it. They appreicate the time together. I really think its a non-issue. Sort of like, they aren't going to be in my bed every night when they are 25 years old, just because we cosleep now....


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I am not a fan of the forced to eat everything -- there is a lt i don't like either

butttttttttttttttttttttttt

on the far other side

is not there some good tot he routine fo "we eat three meals a day together, at these times, you will come to the table as a memeber of this family and be polite even if you chose not to eat"

rather than a whole house of parents and kids eating what they want, when they wasnt (no matter how good what they eat is)?

isn't there a social aspect to the meal as well as a purely nutrional aspect?

Thoughts?

aimee

I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer to that question....in my house I just take as much stress off of eating as I can. My husband usually gets home after the kids would have eaten (I don't want them waiting for him to get home), and with an infant and my 2 and a few month year old no one seems to be hungry at the same time.

I think that 'family time' is more important than 'family DINNER time.' But that's just me. I provide healthy choices for my son when I know he is hungry and leave everything else up to him. Here and there we all catch eachother together hungry at the same time, but I tell ya we spend more time eating like behind the fishy shower curtain "feeding fisses mama!" or sitting outside on the porhc then anywhere else lately








. We have such a short amount of time together (at least during the week) that I like to put the emphasis on things besides needing to actually eat together.

I also know that each of us have different eating habbits. DH can scarf down an entire fridge and not want to eat the rest of the day, and my son and I tend to graze a bit more.

We have family reading time and lots of other traditions in our home, but I just don't really make food one of them. I figure food is just to keep us strong and healthy.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

We have no "food rules" in our house either. My 16 month old just had about 2 sips of my frap at the bookstore, coffee, sugar, whipped cream and all--- much to the chagrin of some people here I'm sure -- but ya know what, 2 sips was all she wanted and was totally fine with it. It has no appeal, no forbidden aspect, no label of "bad" or "fattening" or "not for children" or "not until you eat _____".

We have never had a problem with her eating, or not eating, or eating too much, or eating too little or gorging on "bad" things. Nothing is "bad" except for one caveat -- we are strict vegetarians and while I don't call meat "bad" --- we haven't made it available to her as an option -- we will cross that bridge when we come to it --

However, everything else is fine. We introduced organic, whole, nutritious foods to her at a very young age (around 7 months, sweet potato, avacado, you know the deal) and have continued that same pattern --- that is how we eat around 90% of the time but for the occasional *sometimes* food -- and she hasn't complained







Our house (almost)never contains anything with HFCS, PH oils, refined sugars etc... but we do eat well and I love to cook and bake.

That having been said though, even though we very rarely have things like soda, sweets, sugars in the home, when she has been exposed to such things (around other family members etc) she may ask for a "taste" (she actually says the word *taste*) and behind a well hidden grimace I allow her to try it







She has never gone "hog wild" and drank or eaten anything "bad" in excess -- I find she usually has a tiny taste and then asks for something she is used to eating and already enjoys a lot.

I don't think my child is exceptional by any means. I think most children are this way if allowed to be -- I know there will be posters who come along (threads like this have been covered ad nauseum







) who will claim their children, if given the opportunity to eat what they wanted when they wanted, would gorge on everything sugar/sweet/fat/disgusting and never stop. I only feel that may be the case in situations where food has been controlled until that point, where the child feels they are doing something "forbidden", a privledge which may be removed again, thus choosing to gorge while they have the chance -- or in a situation where there is an underlying medical or psychological reason for overeating or for starving oneself.

I have immense trust in the ability of young children to self regulate their food -- if given information, a wide variety of healthy and appealing foods (yes you can have both







), healthy modeling of their parents' eating (not *eat as I say not as I eat* parenting as I call it







) and if they are free to eat when they want and how much they like.

I can only speak from personal experience, and while it would be wonderful (and convenient) of me and others to think my daughter is just a rare, wonderful, gifted food prodigy







(she's not) --- I think she is more the norm than the rarity ----- however, children like her may stand out more because our parenting with regards to food and rules are _not_ the norm, but the rarity.

ETA:
No, I don't cook 23049732049 dinners. She eats either what I cook, or we have a variety of healthy finger foods available for her which I can easily get or prepare (whole grain crackers, organic cheese, sliced veggies/fruit etc)

No, she doesn't wake up at 4 am demanding food. She has only ever been hungry once or twice in the middle of the night, and again, is always agreeable with things I offer which are easy to prepare.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I am not a fan of the forced to eat everything -- there is a lt i don't like either

butttttttttttttttttttttttt

on the far other side

is not there some good tot he routine fo "we eat three meals a day together, at these times, you will come to the table as a memeber of this family and be polite even if you chose not to eat"

rather than a whole house of parents and kids eating what they want, when they wasnt (no matter how good what they eat is)?

isn't there a social aspect to the meal as well as a purely nutrional aspect?

This is important to me too. We don't eat *three* meals a day together, but we have family dinner together every night, and one of us has breakfast with our daughter every morning. She winds up having her lunch on a different schedule than we do, but one of us always sits at the table with her while she eats.

Family dinner is an important social time in our house. We used to feed Alex dinner before we ate, because my husband worked late. Since she started eating with us, the variety of foods she eats has probably tripled. She wants to try what we're eating. She is also starting to learn table manners from watching us - now she wants very much to eat with a fork, instead of her fingers, because that's what we do. (Mostly.)

I think force feeding is repellent. I love food and eating - why would I want to make it into a source of stress for my family? I put a variety of reasonably healthy foods in front of her, and she can eat or leave things as she chooses. Today for lunch she had milk, a whole lot of carrots, and some canned peaches (in juice, not syrup), and then she gnawed some of the cheese off her cheese toast. Not what I intended her to eat, but it was what she wanted. (She had Lunch II after her nap: a slice of deli roast beef, a few pretzels, and a large quantity of pomegranate seeds.)


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplemama* 
ok we are going through similar struggles but i have to ask, if you child does not eat anything nutritious (crackers) all day, where do you draw the line on gently disciplining them to learn to eat nutritious food before the desert? My almost 3 yo old just gets distracted so it does help to keep her focused so she is not starving and cranky later...

I have one super-picky 4 yo and 1 will-eat-almost-anything 2yo









The most important thing is just not having it in your house (or if you must have something bad make sure they don't know and never see you eating it, kwim?). If they only have healthy options they will only eat healthy food. Beyond that...I try to let my ds eat whatever, whenever. Once he got used to me not buying junk anymore he started eating much better. He may only eat a few things, but I know most of the time they're packed with nutrition.

As far as dessert...we don't do dessert, but when I do make something dessert-y I make it as healthy as possible. Like whole wheat pumpkin cookies made with coconut oil and a healthy natural sweetener. Smoothies are a greatsuper healthy dessert too.

oh, and on the OP topic. I hate that too. I feel so sad for all the kids I know who don't get to decide what they like or don't like. Dh and I can eat whatever we want. If we don't like dinner we mkae a sandwich or eat leftovers. If we're not hungry we eat later. I don't see any reason my boys should have to follow different rules.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom4emnxani* 

I suppose this is just my own thing but I have vivid recollection of having to eat what was on my plate and crying my way through meals. I vowed long ago when I was a child never to force my children to eat.


That was me.

I was so stubborn I would spend HOURS at the dinner table just sitting there since I had to finish everything on my plate before I could leave.
Not sure what that accomplished...


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## Mom2lilpeeps (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericswifey27* 
That was me.

I was so stubborn I would spend HOURS at the dinner table just sitting there since I had to finish everything on my plate before I could leave.
Not sure what that accomplished...

Yeah I'm not sure what it accomplished either. I became the 'master' food hider or flusher.

My friend told me once that if her dd didn't eat her dinner she would get it the next day. I couldn't resist, I said "O.k. 'Mommy Dearest' " She kind of smiled at me and I do believe has stopped doing that. I hope so anyway.

I enjoy food and most days I eat to live not live to eat. I do have my days that I will eat whatever isn't nailed down









A family member called my children weird kids because they prefer vegies and were not sure what Hawaiian Punch was. I might add that after drinking some of that red, liquid sugar my dd puked. It was completely foreign to her body. I do give my little people treats and they even get candy occasionally but they don't get junk like that routinely. My little guy prefers fruit and vegies now. About the only meat he will eat is turkey. I am following his lead. If he naturally doesn't want to eat meat that's fine I will not force it on him. I just find other ways to get protein in him.

In my former life I was a nurse and just before quitting to become a SAHM I worked psych. Eating disorders were so prevalent. I'm not saying that a mother telling her child to clean her plate means that child will definitely have an eating disorder (there are many causes for that). However, it certainly could lead that child to have an unhealthy relationship with food.
My own dh has some serious food issues. He struggles constantly with his weight. When we used to visit his mother she still would tell him to "finish your food" but in the next breath, " you look like you've put on a few" (lbs). How freaking crazy is that? He grew up with that craziness.

I like how you Mammas put it... "food struggles" "no food rules" With my two they will try just about everything (of course it occasionally comes right back out) and we just don't stress about it. So far so good for us.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I am not a fan of the forced to eat everything -- there is a lt i don't like either

butttttttttttttttttttttttt

on the far other side

is not there some good tot he routine fo "we eat three meals a day together, at these times, you will come to the table as a memeber of this family and be polite even if you chose not to eat"

isn't there a social aspect to the meal as well as a purely nutrional aspect?

Thoughts?

My opinion? For our family,no. I mean,I'm a SAHM,and dh spends time with the kids when he gets home,we do eat dinner together generally,although not at the diningroom table cause my 2 yr old cant resist climbing it,but that's another story.







Honestly,I think the whole "family table" concept is great,for families who are gone from the home all day,like both parents working outside of the home fulltime,all the kids in school/daycare,etc. I guess in that sort of situation it would give everyone a "reconnecting" period. Hope that makes sense.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I cannot stomach (lol) food being forced on a child. It's so unkind that I cannot get my head around it, honestly. That kind of thing is just so damaging IMO.

We sometimes eat meals together and sometimes do not. We do not all eat the same thing at our house for meals either (some of us are vegetarian, some not. Someone might not be very hungry, someone else could be extremely hungry, etc)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
I am not a fan of the forced to eat everything -- there is a lt i don't like either

butttttttttttttttttttttttt

on the far other side

is not there some good tot he routine fo "we eat three meals a day together, at these times, you will come to the table as a memeber of this family and be polite even if you chose not to eat"

rather than a whole house of parents and kids eating what they want, when they wasnt (no matter how good what they eat is)?

isn't there a social aspect to the meal as well as a purely nutrional aspect?

Thoughts?

aimee

My approach to what and when my kids eat has always been the same...I provide healthy food, and let them pretty much eat what they want, when they want to.

When I was still with my ex, we _never_ sat down together for a meal, except on holidays...we ate all over the house, and we were always scattered everywhere. I didn't like it, but it was too much work to try to deal with, on top of everything else.

When it was just me and ds1, we often ate together at the table, but not always. Sometimes, I'd eat at the PC, while talking to dh online...ds1 would sit at the coffee table and talk to me.

When dh moved in, he wanted family meals. We told ds1 that we were going to eat together as a family every night. He was surprised, as he'd never had that before, but he didn't have any problem with it and that's been the way we've done it ever since. DS1 was eight when dh moved in.

I guess I just feel that kids will adapt. Our family sits down together for dinner, and dd gets up more-or-less whenever she wants and wanders around. However, she's not allowed to take food from the table, and has to come back when she wants to take another bite. We find it easiest for everyone that way.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
I think that 'family time' is more important than 'family DINNER time.' But that's just me.

No, it's not just you







In our family we have different schedules and not very often can sit together. When we *do* have time together, we'd rather eat something really fast and do fun stuff together.

And I agree wih Captain Crunchy's post completely - my kids actually have no idea that food can be a struggle.

One day they may want to eat a lot, the other they may not. One day they may start their food with what's considered a "dessert" and finish with a bowl of soup. They don't know it's not the "proper way"...

Another point - I am a grazer myself and I tell you, I feel kinda crappy if I do eat a whole "square meal" in one setting. I feel bloated, heavy and sleepy.

Eating is a required bodily function, so let's treat it as such... I mean nobody would try to force a kid to squeeze out "just one more poop" or to go to sleep for "just 10 more minutes". Body "knows" when to eat, what to eat and how much to eat UNLESS something (or somebody) screws it up, be it the health issues or power struggles.

We completely trust NEWBORN babies to know when to eat and how much to eat, why or why all of a sudden we deny kids that self-regulating ability after a child reaches certain age? (oh, and then, by the time they are adults we want this ability to magically appear back - how many people struggle with extra weight?)

Have healthy foods in the house, don't have junk, model healthy eating habits (and no, I am not "covering" people with health issues here, that would be a different story)


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

My mom used to try to make me eat my food off my plate when I was little, luckily I'm stubborn as all get out, so I usually won. She never tried to force me to eat it, mainly just "You can't leave the table until you finish what's on your plate" and I would usually sit at the table until bedtime. She'd always say, "There are kids in China starving that would LOVE to have this food," and I remember how she tried not to laugh when I told her to box up my food and mail it to them (before that I had a really odd view of what they did with trash, I said if she threw my food in the trash, they would dump it in the ocean *ok, maybe I had a correct view of what they were doing in the 80's* and it would float on the waves to China where the kids on the beach would fish it out and eat it.)

Forcing them to eat is a surefire way to give kids an eating disorder (and they blame Barbie, I guess someone has to take the blame, why not a doll?)


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

I guess I will be the voice of dissent. I don't "force" either of my children to eat anything, and I also believe in my children's ability to self-regulate when presented with healthy, diverse food options, but ....

DS1 (3 yo) will ask for something, take one bite, and then decide he wants something else. We've started to say that he can not have something else until he finishes his whatever. Like at lunch yesterday, he asked for a turkey sandwich (we were having cold cuts, turkey was his choice). He helped me build a beautiful sandwich w. whole grain bread, chummus, spouts, tomato and roasted turkey breast. He took 1/2 a bite and decided he didn't want it anymore. We didn't force him to eat it, but we told him that he couldn't have a yogurt or mozarella stick (his "alternatives") until he ate at least half the sandwich, b/c it was wasteful. He chose to eat the other sides from lunch -- fine with us -- and put his sandwich in the fridge. Later, when we were going to the park, he asked to bring a cheese stick with us, and we said, no, he could bring his sandwich. And he did and he ate it happily.

We also have dinner together every night. If my husband or I are not home yet, then the family is minus one (and sometimes two, if baby goes to bed early). But our child(ren) eat together with their parent(s) for all the reasons a PP stated -- socialization, modeling, etc. This doesn't take the place of other family togetherness, but it is something that we make a priority.

Oh, and we generally don't have dessert, but if we do have treats (aka sweets) in the house, I don't have any problem telling DS1 that they are for after other foods have been eaten. I.e. he isn't allowed to eat just ice cream, or just cake, for dinner.

So, yeah, I guess I have food rules. But I don't see this the same as forcing a child to sit at the table until they have cleared their plates.


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## carolhagan (Oct 21, 2006)

I personally feel family dinning time is important. It is a wonderful time for talking and teaching. I am a SAHM, my children are homeschooled, and my husband is usually deployed. However, I still love the time my children and I get to spend together at the dinner table. Even though I stay home with my kids, I do view this as "reconnecting" time. We are often so busy that we don't get to just sit and chat like at meal times. My oldest son is autistic and eating together is vital in teaching him how to behave at a dinner table. It really isn't a struggle because we have always done this.


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## carolhagan (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 

DS1 (3 yo) will ask for something, take one bite, and then decide he wants something else. We've started to say that he can not have something else until he finishes his whatever. Like at lunch yesterday, he asked for a turkey sandwich (we were having cold cuts, turkey was his choice). He helped me build a beautiful sandwich w. whole grain bread, chummus, spouts, tomato and roasted turkey breast. He took 1/2 a bite and decided he didn't want it anymore. .

This sounds like my 3 year old, he does the same thing. And we don't allow him to waste the food either. He doesn't HAVE To eat, but he also can't change his mind 5 times after the food is made either. Especially when he is the one choosing it to begin with.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

The family dining thing is interesting to me. We do enjoy eating together often enough, but we've never felt it was a must do every day/night. We probably do it (as in eat at the table, all together, for a meal.) 2x a week. We are together pretty regularly though, with the exception of a Dh that works a lot, so I wonder if that is the difference.


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

I vividly remember my sil and bil actually holding down their 3 yo and forcing food into his mouth once. That to me is the ultimate force feeding, I just stood there in awe of it all, they just got so caught up in the power struggle that they didn't even realize where they were going.

The more subtle forms of you must finish everything I dish out for me makes me want to vomit. My mil is so big on this, like somehow if he eats this arbirtrary amount that she selected it is perfect. The other day we were down there and he had already ate a meal at our house, ate an entire bowlful of grapes at her house and half a bowl of stew, and she was still on him, one more bite. UGH. We provide healthy options (most of the time







), we do 3 sit down meals, but if he is hungry then we find something for him to eat. If it is right after a meal that he hardly ate I will offer that first, as sometimes he just isn't hungry right when we are, sometimes neither am I. He eats as many bites as he wants, and that is that.

I know people like my mom and mil and many others think that if you don't force a child to eat they won't. My mom has said that to me about my neice, I don't buy, barring any specific issues, I think forcing food into a child's mouth, or even the cajoling and begging just cause extra stress for everyone.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom4emnxani* 
When we used to visit his mother she still would tell him to "finish your food" but in the next breath, " you look like you've put on a few" (lbs). How freaking crazy is that? He grew up with that craziness. .

Oh god, my mom does that too... When I said I started showing really fast this pregnancy she said I was already pretty chubby before, which I'm not, although that's beside the point. In the next breath she chastised me for barely eating anything off my plate







:

I can't believe other people have a crazy mother just like mine.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

I dont care if DD eats all her food. I just want her to TRY what's on her plate, that's it...just TRY. Use her words to say she doesn't like it if that's the case and she's free to go.

I dont like the whole grazing thing, Eat at the table or not at all..my house, my rule....I dont like finding mouldy food left to rot behind the sofa cusions inviting cockroaches, ants, and mice into my house....I keep the mess contained to one room and I'm happy.

She wants to eat a snack she eats at the table, I want to eat a snack I eat at the table, DH wants to eat a snack he eats at the table. Rule for everyone.

If I let my DD graze, she'd be sitting at the table constantly. No thank you...I want my kid to be active (that and she has this problem that she forgets she has food in her mouth and can wind up choking, not a risk I wanna take) So it's a 3 meal 2 snack schedule. OFFERED, not forced. I offer food at that time and she eats it or not...

Supper though I want her to at least *try* something off her plate.

And causing food to explode and go everywhere is *not* tolerated either. That's met with immediate removal from the table and a cloth given to clean it up and stern words.

Words "DD that was NOT appropriate to do, if you are full use your words and say so, do NOT cause a mess. now help me clean it up"


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

We're big believers in the importance of family mealtimes -- we usually eat three meals together every day, though breakfast is sort of fluid, in that my husband and daughter start eating breakfast together when they get up, and I finish eating breakfast with her after I get up half an hour later.

We've always had our daughter with us during mealtimes, except that when she was an infant she was sometimes asleep. Even before she could eat solid food, we thought it was important for her to be at the table with us. Anyway, she's totally used to this now -- I don't think it would occur to her that one might eat meals somewhere other than at the table with one's family.

We definitely have rules. For example, we don't allow feet on the table, climbing on the table, throwing food onto the floor, or removing food from the table to eat it elsewhere. On the other hand, we never try to coerce her into eating something she doesn't want (other than sometimes asking her to try something she hasn't tasted yet -- it seems like she sometimes she forgets that there's another option on her plate), and if there's dessert, we certainly let her eat it no matter how much she did or didn't eat of the meal. Dessert isn't an everyday occurrence at our house, and it's usually a surprise if it is available. She can also get up whenever she decides she's done.

Anyway, I'm pretty turned off by the way a lot of parents try to coerce their children into eating, but I'm also not the "let them eat whatever they want" type -- I wouldn't provide alternatives to the family meal, for example.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Ds eats what he wants whenever he is hungry. I give him ongoing boundaries in the form of feedback. We have habits and general understandings regarding food. Mostly we eliminate struggles by not buying foods that are addictive. When we do buy sugary foods, we approach them with understandings like "Eat it when you want, but not on an empty stomach".

I have never fully understood the anxiety over food issues. However I do respect that people have them, and it's a big concern for others.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I believe strongly on family dinners where everyone eats or at least sits together (like if they don't feel too good, etc.). We all eat at the same time because dh is diabetic and I have to spend forever making meals with my kids' food sensitivities/allergies, etc.

When I was really little, we all sat down together and it was great. We ate at the same time 90% of the time. When I got older, we just fended for ourselves and ate at different times, etc. It was horrible and I vowed to have a family meal time with my kids.

That said, I do make my kids eat at least most of their veggies/fruit to be done or get desert. I don't FORCE them to. They have the choice. If they don't-they will be hungry b/c I have 0 help and 0 time to cook 10 meals. Personally, I know my own children. They usually eat their veggies first regardless (they looove veggies







and usually beg for more), so it's not really an issue. I figure if they are too full to eat one bite of their dinner, they are too full to eat a big cookie. But I'm mean.

One of my brothers was the only one of us (he was the favorite) that got to pick exactly what he wanted to eat all the time and always had *his* food available and never had anything pushed on him. He eats:
chicken Mcnuggets only from McD with only their S&S sauce
French fries only from McD
Taco Bell tacos no l&t
Hot dogs (specific brand and specific buns & mustard(
broccoli (recent development)
pears from a can-specific brand
corn dogs-specific brand

My dh was never encouraged to eat healthy. He was raised on a diet of beef, yellow cheese, white bread, pop, and fruit rollups. He never ate a vegetable outside of a potato or fruit at all before we started dating. He was dx as a juv. diabetic at age 14. It was very out of control until we got together and he has been trying his best to eat healthy due to my influence and now has no problems (he has also had to drastically reduce his insulin







). And we both agree that healthy eating is priority over our kids' rights to decide at meals due to our experiences.

And I agree, Pandora. We do eat snacks, but limit them and eat them a time before dinner so they won't be stuffed on pretzels and such and then starving as soon as the food is cold.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

We have proper meals rather than grazing but absolutely no "clean your plate" policy. DD eats whatever amount she wants to eat. I think the whole idea of forcing a child to eat a quantity that you have pre-determined is SICK.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplemama* 
ok we are going through similar struggles but i have to ask, if you child does not eat anything nutritious (crackers) all day, where do you draw the line on gently disciplining them to learn to eat nutritious food before the desert? My almost 3 yo old just gets distracted so it does help to keep her focused so she is not starving and cranky later...

Very simple answer to this: do not give your DC crackers. Do not even keep them in the house. Do not buy them at the grocery store. Crackers are processed food. Most contain hydrogenated vegetable oil (very unhealthy for adults and children) and all are empty calories.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

irinam said:


> I mean nobody would try to force a kid to squeeze out "just one more poop"/
> 
> 
> > My dh was at his sister's house once when she was potty training her ds, and she was literally begging him to poop, "please, J, can't you just go poop for mommy?" They're also big fans of the "three more bites" club. Even if it's a hot dog!
> ...


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom4emnxani* 
Any other Mammas out there struggle with different parenting styles and biting your tongue?

I am so glad you posted this because I need to vent! I was at a party the other night and this mama was praising her 13-month-old son's new daycare because they can get him to eat more than she can. She said, "They MAKE him eat it. They're like, 'You HAVE to eat it," in a really strict voice.

I said, "Oh, that's so sad!" I wasn't trying to pick a fight, I just really felt sad for the poor baby. Not only is he just getting used to a new caregiver, but he is being forced to eat. He doesn't feel safe enough to refuse. So sad.

Then literally ALL the other moms jumped on me. There were like 6 of them. They were like, "You have to be like that or your kid will have you wrapped around your little finger." I shrugged and kept on drinking my wine. I didn't feel like picking a fight but now I wish I had.









Absolutely ridiculous.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I am not big on force feeding.

BUT, I have a nephew who MUST be force fed. But he's so little. It's either this or a feeding tube. So, to avoid a feeding tube, she force feeds, bribes, cajoles. Personally I think I would rather let him have a feeding tube for a while til he gets a little bigger. The whole day is filled with tears for everybody involved. BUT, I have no idea what is involved with a feeding tube. So, I stay out of it.

Other than that, we have a saying.. "You get what you get, and you don't have a fit". If they eat it fine, if not, fine. There will be another meal in a little while, so nobody is going to starve. If they want something even though they didn't eat, they are welcome to have HEALTHY snacks. Unfortunatley these aren't my kids, so their idea of a "Healthy snack" means it comes from a foil pouch.


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## sweetsensation (May 27, 2006)

I was forced to eat everything on my plate (prepared by my mother) before I could even get up from the table. This continued into my middle school years and then made to feel guilty about as I grew up. I think this behavior has contributed to our nation's obesity problem because it causes the person to not be able to determine when they are full, so they eat and eat. There is scientific data proving this. So I am so very against forcing your child to eat, however, i don't believe my kids can only eat a few bites and then get dessert. And I am not going to fix 3 different meals because one child doesn't like pork chops. My kids have always been great eaters, especially of vegetables (I think because I ate lots of them while breastfeeding and continued to introduce them over and over, even when they refused to eat them!) But it is much healthier for everyone, especially children, to eat several small meals throughout the day, instead of stuffing themselves with 2 or 3 large ones. So all hail to the little grazers!! They know what their body needs. I just make sure my 2 year old has healthy items to snack on because she is always on the go, and always HUNGRY!!


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## carolhagan (Oct 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I am not big on force feeding.

BUT, I have a nephew who MUST be force fed. But he's so little. It's either this or a feeding tube. So, to avoid a feeding tube, she force feeds, bribes, cajoles. Personally I think I would rather let him have a feeding tube for a while til he gets a little bigger. The whole day is filled with tears for everybody involved. BUT, I have no idea what is involved with a feeding tube. So, I stay out of it.

Other than that, we have a saying.. "You get what you get, and you don't have a fit". If they eat it fine, if not, fine. There will be another meal in a little while, so nobody is going to starve. If they want something even though they didn't eat, they are welcome to have HEALTHY snacks. Unfortunatley these aren't my kids, so their idea of a "Healthy snack" means it comes from a foil pouch.

Is your nephew special needs? I just find this really odd. My son is really small too. (Almost 30lbs at five years old) He was admitted in the hospital for failure to thrive several times, but I would still never force feed him. He is autistic and has issues with certain texture foods. I try to provide healthy foods that he will eat, and not sweat it if he doesn't eat.


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## sweetsensation (May 27, 2006)

I was forced to eat everything on my plate (prepared by my mother) before I could even get up from the table. This continued into my middle school years and then made to feel guilty about as I grew up. I think this behavior has contributed to our nation's obesity problem because it causes the person to not be able to determine when they are full, so they eat and eat. There is scientific data proving this. So I am so very against forcing your child to eat, however, i don't believe my kids can only eat a few bites and then get dessert. And I am not going to fix 3 different meals because one child doesn't like what I fix. My kids have always been great eaters, especially of vegetables (I think because I ate lots of them while breastfeeding and continued to introduce them over and over, even when they refused to eat them!) But it is much healthier for everyone, especially children, to eat several small meals throughout the day, instead of stuffing themselves with 2 or 3 large ones. So all hail to the little grazers!! They know what their body needs. I just make sure my 2 year old has healthy items to snack on because she is always on the go, and always HUNGRY!!


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Does anyone else have a kid who gets crazy grumpy when he doesn't eat, but claims he's not hungry, and then wants to nurse either constantly or every ten-15 minutes to assuage the hunger? I don't know where I fall on the eating issues. I have given up on following him around offering it to him when I know he's hungry or almost-hungry, trying to prevent the crazy grumpies. Now I just let him hit the wall and get grumpy; but then the nursing constantly starts, and that makes me grumpy. Then I end up stopping the constant nursing, and he eats, but by that time we've had a bad hour or so. I've tried saying he can only nurse after he eats, but that feels semi-manipulative and weird. (I only say that when it's painfully obvious that he's hungry: he is grumpy, his stomach is growling, etc.). I've tried asking what he needs the nursing for -- to fill his belly, or for cuddles, or for thirst; that worked for a while to help him understand he was hungry, but it's stopped working. He doesn't seem to have food allergies. He'll be three in Feb. And sometimes he does eat when he's hungry -- it's gotten a lot better since I stopped trying to prevent his hungry grumpies, and just let him hit the wall. But then sometimes the nursing starts...

So I guess I'm saying I'm afraid I'm creating food issues for my son. I have been found, on occasion, begging him to eat -- in order to curb the grumpies and the constant nursing. And once he does eat, he's the picture of sunshine. Does anyone else have a situation like this?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Have you tried just making an observation (without asking or pressuring or expectation) -- "I thought you might be hungry, there is _______ for you that I put ____ (on the table, on the bottom shelf of the fridge, in this baggie etc) Maybe that would help? Have you tried foods that are really easy to get in him to stop hunger quickly? In other words, maybe he likes the nursing (not only because it's from mama







) but because it is like a liquid meal which he is used to filling him up quickly? Have you tried smoothies? They can be really healthy -- or if it isn't a *cuddle* issue, maybe you could pump and have some bm available to him if he wants some?

Sorry if you have tried those things, just thought I would take a shot ---

On the other issues raised --- I just have to repeat that no one I know who *doesn't* have food rules makes more than one dinner (unless they choose to, want to, or there are severe allergies etc) --- I know I don't make more than one dinner and I don't plan to in the future. There are tons of things our daughter will happily eat which are nutritious, tasty, and very quick to prepare/make/serve --- I just need to clarify that because that is the big thing I hear when the discussion of food comes up regarding children and honoring their autonomy as it relates to it "I'm not a short order cook!!!" "I can't let them eat dessert for dinner!!!" and all that ---

On that issue, I have no problem with dessert before dinner, or dessert as the whole meal or dessert all day long --- for two reasons --- it has never happened and I don't see it happening. I have found in my own daughter and have observed in other children raised in this manner relating to food, that when food holds no *power*, when it evokes no strong emotions or arguements or power struggles, when it has no allure (other than maybe the taste of it) -- it is unlikely a child will actively choose to eat ding dongs all day -- especially since their palates are already used to certain foods --- and as addictive as some foods can be, I assert that the same types of foods can be seen as _too_ sweet or rich or not appealing to someone who's already developed a taste and familiarity and a positive connection to *healthy* foods.

In addition, one piece of cake never gave someone diabetes. One serving of chips never made someone fat. Once piece of cheesecake never gave someone heart disease. Yes, these things are not the *healthiest* of items, and are not regular visitors in our home -- but I we can all agree ( I think and hope ) that the occasional, rare item like this in an otherwise healthy, nutritious, balanced diet including exercise is not the creator or cause of a nation of health problems and obesity.

In my humble opinion, having our daughter be a witness to the occasional, responsibly consumed "treat", and seeing that it is not abused, seeing that while it is enjoyed, it is done so in moderation, with responsibility before returning back to our regular, healthier diet is better than the "eat as I say not as I eat" attitude I see a lot.

Babe needs me more later!


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## northern_sunshine (Mar 15, 2006)

I don't like the idea of force-feeding. We do try and have 3 meals a day and we want her to at least try/have a little of whatever it is we are serving (she gets to choice out of the selection whats on her plate). Unless it's super-close to a mealtime, she's allowed to snack pretty much at will as long as she's not wasting food.

With my niece, it feels almost like force-feeding her sometimes (she stays here periodically). She is 10 and will go literal days without eating unless you literally say "What do you want, I will fix it and you will eat it" (though I never force her to clean her plate). She isn't a good "grazer" either because if junk is available, that is all she will eat (We've taken her to dinner before, bought her the meal of her choice from the kids menu, have her take 2 bites and say she's full to come back to the house and grab chips and start chowing down). Needless to say, we don't keep junk in the house when she's visiting anymore!

Her mother/grandmother are so desperate to get her to eat that they will let her have chocolate frozen yogurt in lieu of a meal because "it has calcium." Which I think is giving her the impression that if she doesn't eat meals, she will get junk.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Like most things, I'm growing/evolving on this one. There was a time, not long ago, when I really felt like I had to get my 2 year old to eat at least 2 bites of his dinner. But, like most folks, I've observed that he really does eat when he is hungry, and will eat very healthy food (unless it is green - I still have to sneak the green stuff in to sauces, soups, etc.), and when he doesn't feel like eating, he usually has a good reason not to (often he needs to poop). And when he isn't hungry, even his favorite foods (pizza, mac n cheese) will not really tempt him. So I'm learning to trust him, like I'm learning to trust hm about so many other things. I do ask him to at least try to eat a bite of what I cook...because he usually does say no at first to new things. We also are pretty much a non dessert family (or, to be honest, sometimes a dessert after he goes to bed family) because I just don't want to play that game of using sweets to manipulate him into eating, and he does really have a sweet tooth. I just don't want him expecting dessert with every dinner. For us, dessert is a special treat, not an every day occurance, and when we do have dessert with dinner on a special occasion, he gets some whether he eats his dinner or not.

We eat 3 meals at the table. It is just fun/important social time for us, and my son honestly enjoys it. My husband cooks breakfast every morning (lately, since I'm preggy and tired, I sleep), and the two of them eat together. Sometimes my son eats, sometimes he doesn't, we try not to fret about it. He seems to enjoy the ritual even if he doesn't eat.

I grew up in an "at the table" family, and really value that. There were never food battles - I didnt' have to finish my plate. I just enjoyed having that time to check in as a family. My brother, who seems to have responded to everything differently than I did, really resented having to eat at the table, but that is a different story. We also snack. I have low blood sugar and need several smaller snacks each day to keep from getting grumpy, so I usually offer my son a slice of cheese or a piece of fruit when I'm having my snack. Sometimes he says yes, sometimes no. We allow snacks on his train table or outside, but regular meals happen at the table.

One issue that we do have is that my 2.5 year old still likes for me to feed him! I don't all the time, but there are days where he says "mommy feed me" and I will. I worry sometimes that when I feed him, he is eating when he isn't hungry. He also will ASK me to play airplane games with him, which we played when he was younger. I don't have any problem with those sort of games if they aren't being used manipulatively. He asks for "steam engine bites", "diesel train bites" "hellicopter bites" etc. and sometimes even makes sound effects as he feeds himself. I think it is more about his enjoyment of eating...but it does have me wondering. Eating for us seems mostly fun, rarely stressful, and I'm learning to not be stressed about it at all because when he is hungry, he will EAT...and I mean EAT. It blows me away how much he will put away when he is hungry.

He also is one of those kids who thinks everything tastes better with ketchup, but that is another story - at least we are using organic/low sugar/low salt red stuff. I don't have any problem giving him ketchup with his whole wheat pancakes if he asks for it.

This has been a very helpful thread. I will say that I think that parents who play food games...or ask their kids to take a certain number of bites are doing what they think is the right thing. I went through a really fretful stage between 1-2 because he was such a good eater earlier on...loved broccoli, spinach, veggies, and then really seemed to get picky. I felt like I was failing, and really tried to encourage "just a couple of bites" because I felt like I had to do that to be a responsible mom. I've learned...but don't be too hard on folks. For me, it helped to realize that it really was a control issue, and that as long as I was giving him healthy choices, I didn't have to be so in control of what he choose to eat or not eat. I also sympathize with parents with older kids...because it really does seem like it can get to be a trickier issue.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
I went through a really fretful stage between 1-2 because he was such a good eater earlier on...loved broccoli, spinach, veggies, and then really seemed to get picky. I felt like I was failing, and really tried to encourage "just a couple of bites" because I felt like I had to do that to be a responsible mom. I've learned...but don't be too hard on folks. For me, it helped to realize that it really was a control issue, and that as long as I was giving him healthy choices, I didn't have to be so in control of what he choose to eat or not eat. I also sympathize with parents with older kids...because it really does seem like it can get to be a trickier issue.

I agree, it's surprising when your child gets a little older and all of a sudden only wants about one spoonful of something. Or the same thing all day every day for three days. It can be worrisome. I had heard from lots of different places about how children get picky as they get older, so I was even prepared, and when my dd started doing this, I still got worried and tempted to enforce some more rules. But, it seems like she is still eating pretty well, most of the time.

I do have to disagree with this, though:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaptainCrunchy*
I have found in my own daughter and have observed in other children raised in this manner relating to food, that when food holds no *power*, when it evokes no strong emotions or arguements or power struggles, when it has no allure (other than maybe the taste of it) -- it is unlikely a child will actively choose to eat ding dongs all day -- especially since their palates are already used to certain foods --- and as addictive as some foods can be, I assert that the same types of foods can be seen as too sweet or rich or not appealing to someone who's already developed a taste and familiarity and a positive connection to *healthy* foods.

This is exactly the opposite of what I've observed. I have been very surprised by how quickly my dd's tongue became desensitized to "junk" food, to the saltier tastes of hot dogs and the sweeter tastes of store-bought baked goods. If I agreed to buy all of these things at the store, as she always requests, I am sure this is all she would eat. When she gets candy as a gift, I occasionally let her have free rein with it, and she does not choose to eat carrots or beans or cheese or anything else normal until she has eaten it all.

And I don't think it has that much to do with control. I think the biggest part is biological, an urge that has evolved to preserve the human race, and is now, of course, turning on us. I believe our bodies crave high calorie, high fat, sweet foods because for most of the time that humans have walked the earth, this has been a very good strategy for preservation. We like those foods because they prepare us for times of famine. I think it's just too simple to dismiss an entire culture's obesity epidemic as one of food control issues. There's greater forces at work here.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I hated that my son's cousins were punished w/ time out and no dessert w/ out cleaning off their plate.

I say why should they get punished & get something taken away when they did eat a bit of it. They shouldn't be expected to eat every single bit even if they do take alot . Half the time when I see my cousins fill their plate up omg it is sooooooo full' . I couldn't even be able to eat that much and they expect them to eat it all. To me that's nuts even my mom was trying to 'force feed my son' . I go - that's alot ' and my son will eat what he wants to eat and when he will eat it.

So many times even parents who do force feeding of their kids barely finish their own meals themselves half the time I bet we are nearly putting our leftovers in the garbage so why should we make our kids eat when we barely eat anything.

Like for example my son's grandma who's trying to force feed my son is like only having one 'big full meal which is at dinner otherwise she just eats yogurt, banana & popcorn,

I go think this is why my mom has so much trouble sleeping. I give my son offering of food , fruit, veggies, meat, drinks he is able to eat if he wants to eat today he didn't want to eat at all except a little bit of string cheese.

He's sick with an ear infection so I won't press him on eating cuz chewing proably bothers his ear .

Force feeding can lead to obesity which means you can either eat so quickly that you don't feel full so you 'overstuff yourself because it takes at least 20 minutes for you body to know their is food in you . Forced feeding leads to continue to eat even if your full.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carolhagan* 
Is your nephew special needs? I just find this really odd. My son is really small too. (Almost 30lbs at five years old) He was admitted in the hospital for failure to thrive several times, but I would still never force feed him. He is autistic and has issues with certain texture foods. I try to provide healthy foods that he will eat, and not sweat it if he doesn't eat.

They claim he is just "Failure to thrive", but that when he is alone with them, he is happy and animated. I have only spent about 20 hours with him, (They live in St Louis) and I saw absolutely no response at all. He just sits there and stares. The only time he makes a sound is when they are feeding him, and then he cries. He spends a lot of time in a wonderful Childrens hospital, and his mother is a nurse. So, since I don't see him often, I just don't know.

He weighs about 11 lbs and is 16 months old. My daughter was 8 lbs at birth, so he seems so small to me. He is not only skinny, he is tiny. He has tiny hands, a tiny head. He was born on time, but weighed only 4.5 lbs. Then he never would eat, so they kept him in the hospital for a long time.

I wish I knew more, but I am not very involved.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
And I don't think it has that much to do with control. I think the biggest part is biological, an urge that has evolved to preserve the human race, and is now, of course, turning on us. I believe our bodies crave high calorie, high fat, sweet foods because for most of the time that humans have walked the earth, this has been a very good strategy for preservation. We like those foods because they prepare us for times of famine. I think it's just too simple to dismiss an entire culture's obesity epidemic as one of food control issues. There's greater forces at work here.

To make this more complicated, I think it depends also on our individual genetic heritage, which is why different parents have different observations about how this stuff affects their own kids.

So I think it's entirely possible that some people's kids react to these kinds of foods by eating them in moderation, while other people's kids react to them by eating nothing else.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
This is exactly the opposite of what I've observed. I have been very surprised by how quickly my dd's tongue became desensitized to "junk" food, to the saltier tastes of hot dogs and the sweeter tastes of store-bought baked goods. If I agreed to buy all of these things at the store, as she always requests, I am sure this is all she would eat. When she gets candy as a gift, I occasionally let her have free rein with it, and she does not choose to eat carrots or beans or cheese or anything else normal until she has eaten it all.

And I don't think it has that much to do with control. I think the biggest part is biological, an urge that has evolved to preserve the human race, and is now, of course, turning on us. I believe our bodies crave high calorie, high fat, sweet foods because for most of the time that humans have walked the earth, this has been a very good strategy for preservation. We like those foods because they prepare us for times of famine. I think it's just too simple to dismiss an entire culture's obesity epidemic as one of food control issues. There's greater forces at work here.

I agree. My SIL's dd only drinks chocolate milk and only eats cheese cubes and sugary snacks. She is ~3. My MIL watches her and will only give her junk because she wants to show her she "loves her". Where SIL tried to get her to eat other stuff but failed due to her mother's interference. And now SIL tries to force her to eat meat (she hates meat) and refuses to make veggies and fruit for her.









When she comes to our house, she eats what we give her. But I think that it is situation dependent. Some children DO prefer junk (I was one of them as a kid and still struggle with it and force down some healthy stuff), and some kids could go either way.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnw826* 
I agree. My SIL's dd only drinks chocolate milk and only eats cheese cubes and sugary snacks. She is ~3. My MIL watches her and will only give her junk because she wants to show her she "loves her". Where SIL tried to get her to eat other stuff but failed due to her mother's interference. And now SIL tries to force her to eat meat (she hates meat) and refuses to make veggies and fruit for her.









When she comes to our house, she eats what we give her. But I think that it is situation dependent. Some children DO prefer junk (I was one of them as a kid and still struggle with it and force down some healthy stuff), and some kids could go either way.

So wait --- how is that making an arguement that children are biologically programmed to want sugar? That seems to me a case of providing unhealthy food from a very young age --- tying it up with emotion (to show she loves her you said) and interfering in the mother's attempts to provide alternatives.... none of which involves veggies and fruit??

That is not what we do at all. We don't give our daughter food to show we love her --- well in a broad sense maybe, we provide organic, vegetarian, whole, nutritious foods as another means of showing our care for her body --- but there are no emotions tied to eating or not (other than does it make our body feel good? Does it taste fresh? etc)

People are not biologically programmed to want "junk" imo -- considering the fact that in the early days of the human experience, there was no "junk" --- the only real fat I suppose came from animal fats and oils --- otherwise it was grain/seeds/nuts/fruit... then of course later, vegetables which could be planted and harvested etc...the *sugars* were fruit sugars or very unrefined ---

I don't think control issues are the ONLY thing which create unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships with food -- but I think it has a lot to do with it -- I think all the power, and manipulation, and threats and pressure, and emotional ties, and withholding certain foods or forcing certain foods, or changing the "rules" depending on how you feel at the time (for instance no *junk* unless it is a holiday or we are on vacation, then go nuts) which creates an unhealthy attachment and relationship with food. It gives it so much power.

I suppose I feel that if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it. Our daughter is extremely healthy, eats a wide array of healthful foods, is at a very healthy weight, gets a lot of activity --- and we have no food rules whatsoever (except where it breaks federal law, like with alcohol or something) ---- now if she were obese, or lacked energy, or had behavioral issues related to certain foods at 17 monthsold I may think, "sheesh, something isn't working" and modify. I trust her ability to seek out foods (if provided to her and are enjoyable to the palate) which will make her body feel healthy and she has showed me so far that she willingly does that. Why change it?


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Humans are biologically programmed to want sweet/fattening foods because of the long harsh winter sans fresh food, so they want to pack on the pounds before the famine ahead. It's called nature. It's how we survived our hunter gatherer times.

Also Sweet = Safe
Bitter = Dangerous

Many poisonous plants are very bitter to the pallate, masking poisonous tendencies. So the sweet ones are the safe ones.

Hence why sugar triggers the whole "Must eat lots...must store up...this bounty..mffmffmffmmmm must pig out..." reflex in alot of people, because the body is well lets just say no matter how far we try to THINK we have evolved past our hunter gatherer tendencies, the biology is still there...so sweet = bounty must eat, must put into body storage for winter because it wont last.

Make sense???

Unfortunately refined sugar has tricked our bodies...

but that's another can o worms


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
So wait --- how is that making an arguement that children are biologically programmed to want sugar? That seems to me a case of providing unhealthy food from a very young age --- tying it up with emotion (to show she loves her you said) and interfering in the mother's attempts to provide alternatives.... none of which involves veggies and fruit??

That is not what we do at all. We don't give our daughter food to show we love her --- well in a broad sense maybe, we provide organic, vegetarian, whole, nutritious foods as another means of showing our care for her body --- but there are no emotions tied to eating or not (other than does it make our body feel good? Does it taste fresh? etc)

People are not biologically programmed to want "junk" imo -- considering the fact that in the early days of the human experience, there was no "junk" --- the only real fat I suppose came from animal fats and oils --- otherwise it was grain/seeds/nuts/fruit... then of course later, vegetables which could be planted and harvested etc...the *sugars* were fruit sugars or very unrefined ---

I don't think control issues are the ONLY thing which create unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships with food -- but I think it has a lot to do with it -- I think all the power, and manipulation, and threats and pressure, and emotional ties, and withholding certain foods or forcing certain foods, or changing the "rules" depending on how you feel at the time (for instance no *junk* unless it is a holiday or we are on vacation, then go nuts) which creates an unhealthy attachment and relationship with food. It gives it so much power.

I suppose I feel that if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it. Our daughter is extremely healthy, eats a wide array of healthful foods, is at a very healthy weight, gets a lot of activity --- and we have no food rules whatsoever (except where it breaks federal law, like with alcohol or something) ---- now if she were obese, or lacked energy, or had behavioral issues related to certain foods at 17 monthsold I may think, "sheesh, something isn't working" and modify. I trust her ability to seek out foods (if provided to her and are enjoyable to the palate) which will make her body feel healthy and she has showed me so far that she willingly does that. Why change it?

Actually, I was talking about two things at once. I am NAK, so I get muddled up in writing, sorry. I meant to bring up this study I had read about food choices and genes. Something about whether or not you like meat, and there were a few other corresponding things. It was in July, I belive. Still NAK, so I will look later. But so much about what we eat has to do with genes for a lot of people.

And according to all of the biology I have read, we are programmed to want "junk". Biologically we are made to eat as much as we can to build food stores for times of starvation and famine. And we are designed to like sweet things, etc. because...well, biology. They are "Pregastric Factors". Things like appearance, taste, psychology, odor, and learned aversions and preferences.

Ok. DD down. Interesting links:

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/...aste_gene.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-wwa020403.php

http://www.bioedonline.org/slides/slide01.cfm?tk=11

Oh yeah, and everything Pandora said.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yes, I actually do know about biology pandora, thanks for the refresher --anyway --- how can we be programmed to eat things which were not even invented though??? Odd to me how that conclusion has been reached --- I get the whole "we may starve, let's bulk up" reasoning -- but you mean to tell me that intelligent human beings who have information, knowledge, experience, and a means to continue eating and not starve, are a slave to food because they *just can't help it*. -- Sounds like the good 'ol excuse for cheating by men for thousands of years "it's biology baby, I couldn't keep it in my pants, gotta spread that seed ya know..." Yes, there may be a biological predisposition to certain behaviors, but I am not going to let that rule my world, or use it as an excuse to control other people and what they put in their mouths.

I guess I reject the mentality that we have no control over what we eat, or how much, so we have to control our children so they don't fall into the same terrible fate of being addicted victims to twinkies. Yes, refined sugar _can_ be addictive -- as well as alcohol, or anything else -- and even though addicts get all the press.. there actually are WAY more responsible, social drinkers out there than addicts. Research shows that there is far less instance of addiction in homes where (other variables being similar) alcohol was presented in a responsible manner, without being seen as taboo or evil -- or on the flip side, presented as a reward for being "good".

I reject the idea that just because some of us may have a predisposition from thousands of years ago to crave certain foods and certain times (depending on time of month, hormonal changes, pregnancy, stress etc) that we are just doomed and there is nothing we can do about it.

With regard to children, this is just another subject where people (imo) insult their children's intelligence, body cues, and instincts (however unintentionally) so they can control their environment for the "greater good".

To a certain extent we all control certain aspects of our children's environment, in that my daughter is too young to drive to the grocery store, throw stuff in the cart, pay for it, bring it home etc.... so I acknowledge that I am helping to form her tastes and preferences for certain foods based on my presentation of it, my attitude when eating and enjoying healthy foods, our discussions (and future discussions) on certain foods, their healing (or hurting) properties, how they make us feel physically (good or bad) and on and on..

I guess I don't see why it would be neccessary to control anything else -- forcing one more bite, or nothing sweet until veggies or eaten etc... or even making her try new things seems so controlling and out there to me -- either she wants to try it or not, whatever. I trust her ability to fuel her body, and it has been working wonderfully so far --- why start controlling her? One day our children are going to get to an age where no one can "control" them --- I'd rather begin building the foundation now of critical thinking, following hunger cues, recognizing when certain foods make us tired, or cranky, of feel bad, recognizing what foods make our bodies feel good and energetic etc --- rather than control her every step of the way then wonder why she is sneaking McD's in at night and hiding the wrappers under her bed when she is a teenager (or throwing it up in her closet or something)... not suggesting _your_ children will do that, but it isn't unheard of....


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Ok. I see that you don't believe in it. But we haven't evolved to be past following biology for our eating habits. Some people are slaves to food and junk and can not control it. Everyone is different. Just because *your* children aren't doesn't mean nobody is. All of the scientific research agrees that there is a lot more biology behind it than you believe in. We *are* animals. We can not go around biology for a lot of things.

I do not find it to be insulting my children's intelligence to tell my 2 yo that she can not eat ice cream all day. She would. She would get sick. My job as parent is to guide her. I am going against her intinct to hoarde and to eat sweets. If that's insulting, then I will gladly give up my membership to MDC.

Not everyone is perfect and eats healthy because they are following their intelligence. If that were the case, then can you explain the huge rates of obesity and nutrition linked illnesses?


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree with Capt. Crunchy.

Given the climate of eating disorders in the country, I'd say the conventional wisdom might need some re-tooling.

In a few weeks the unschooling lists will be full of accounts of uneaten, disregarded buckets of Halloween Candy.







Seems like that group of uncontrolled, unrestricted kids do behave uniformly in this regard--small sample that it is.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I guess I reject the mentality that we have no control over what we eat, or how much, so we have to control our children so they don't fall into the same terrible fate of being addicted victims to twinkies. Yes, refined sugar _can_ be addictive -- as well as alcohol, or anything else -- and even though addicts get all the press.. there actually are WAY more responsible, social drinkers out there than addicts. Research shows that there is far less instance of addiction in homes where (other variables being similar) alcohol was presented in a responsible manner, without being seen as taboo or evil -- or on the flip side, presented as a reward for being "good".

I reject the idea that just because some of us may have a predisposition from thousands of years ago to crave certain foods and certain times (depending on time of month, hormonal changes, pregnancy, stress etc) that we are just doomed and there is nothing we can do about it.

Okay, but alcohol addiction takes a really long time to build. It's not immediate, at all, and first you have to build up quite a resistance. How about nicotine? Do you think all those smokers out there should be able to just smoke in moderation? If they didn't associate it with being a rebel, they wouldn't want to smoke? Or how about heroin? I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure most of the human race were not using heroin as we were evolving from hunter/gatherers, yet I wouldn't deign to dismiss someone's heroin addiction.

I think people crave refined sugar because it triggers a response in our body. All animals respond this way. No, it doesn't have to dictate our behavior, but we shouldn't ignore it's power. Especially with children.

And, I know you hate to hear this CaptainCrunchy, but I have to say that it was a hell of a lot easier to keep my dd's diet healthy when she was 17 months old. She hadn't been to other people's houses, she didn't notice as much when other people were eating other stuff, she didn't know to associate bright colors and cartoons on packaging with tasty junk food. She couldn't trick or treat, and people didn't give her candy as presents. So, I feel that it's important to exert some control over these things. And I think that to say that a toddler has never asked for junk food and eats very healthy because you don't have junk food is a great start, but is a totally different situation. And I can't imagine what we're going to have to deal with when she gets to school!







:

With regard to children, this is just another subject where people (imo) insult their children's intelligence, body cues, and instincts (however unintentionally) so they can control their environment for the "greater good".

To a certain extent we all control certain aspects of our children's environment, in that my daughter is too young to drive to the grocery store, throw stuff in the cart, pay for it, bring it home etc.... so I acknowledge that I am helping to form her tastes and preferences for certain foods based on my presentation of it, my attitude when eating and enjoying healthy foods, our discussions (and future discussions) on certain foods, their healing (or hurting) properties, how they make us feel physically (good or bad) and on and on..

I guess I don't see why it would be neccessary to control anything else -- forcing one more bite, or nothing sweet until veggies or eaten etc... or even making her try new things seems so controlling and out there to me -- either she wants to try it or not, whatever. I trust her ability to fuel her body, and it has been working wonderfully so far --- why start controlling her? One day our children are going to get to an age where no one can "control" them --- I'd rather begin building the foundation now of critical thinking, following hunger cues, recognizing when certain foods make us tired, or cranky, of feel bad, recognizing what foods make our bodies feel good and energetic etc --- rather than control her every step of the way then wonder why she is sneaking McD's in at night and hiding the wrappers under her bed when she is a teenager (or throwing it up in her closet or something)... not suggesting _your_ children will do that, but it isn't unheard of....[/QUOTE]


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

But when kids are older then they can UNDERSTAND nutrition better.

I have been through 0 to 19yo with my DS. Which "hard" age did I miss? I understand the argument about "not all kids are the same", but I also believe that concious realization of what is happening in our body plays a very significant role.

Just like you pointed out - addictions do not (usually) happen overnight. So why would a human with his/her OWN understanding (and not because mommy forbids) get themselves to the point of addiction?

DD is 6 now. She also had more or less "free rein" as far as food is concerned. I say "more or less" because: no, we don't have mountains of candy of the table every day that is there INSTEAD of other foods. Because she sees US eat other foods. We ALL have occasional candy now and then.

I guess the point of this discussion has been that one is way more likely to develop food addiction, unability to control food intake, etc., IF there are force fed.

I guess there is ALWAYS a possibility to develop food addiction (just like any other addiction). I just believe that this possibility is much greater IF people have never been given a chance to listen to their body.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
IIn a few weeks the unschooling lists will be full of accounts of uneaten, disregarded buckets of Halloween Candy.







.

Two years ago, I'd have been writing posts like that. DS1 could take it or leave it. He'd love his Easter basket and his Halloween loot...and most of it would end up going stale and getting thrown out, or being eaten by me.







: DS1 liked healthy foods - would happily snack on veggies and fruits, and didn't much care about junk. And, now he's 13.5. He could get a full pillowcase on Halloween and eat it all in about two weeks. He'll eat an Easter basket worth of chocolate in three days, if allowed. He _always_ wants junk. Same kid - same mom....just add hormones...

DD's a whole different story right out the chute. She'd happily live on cookies and candy if we had it in the house on a regular basis. Kids are all different.

My sister's twins are the funniest I've ever seen in some ways. If she gave them a classic balanced meal, all the potatoes/pasta/rice/whatever ended up on the boy's plate, and the girl ate all his meat. He ate more veggies, but his sister would eat _some_ of them. They've always been that way, and it hasn't changed. The boy will also eat about five times the candy that his sister will, if they have equal access to it.

I do my best, but I have an unhealthy relationship with food, myself. (It's not he result of force feeding or "you must clear your plate" - I know where it comes from and it's not that innocent, unfortunately). I fight with food every day of my life, and sometimes, the struggle spills over on my kids. They do end up with slightly more junk in the house than I'm 100% okay with...but it's still not an all the time thing..


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## Mom2lilpeeps (Aug 19, 2006)

I agree with letting a child listen to his/her own body in regards to food. Someone pointed out the fact we wouldn't expect our children (hopefully) to pee or poop on command. Why should food be any different? Captain Crunchy I'm with you.

The only time I really give this much thought is when we have these playdates. I don't agree with the way my friend does things and am not sure how to bring up the topic without making her feel defensive. Maybe it's just none of my business but I see her dd looking at my two little people who do not have to clean their plates and are allowed to 'graze' and her little eyes look sad and confused. She will ask me if she "can be done" of course I defer to her Mommy. I don't want to step on anyone's toes. Hmm, maybe we should do our playdates not around dinner...that would solve my issue anyway.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Okay, we are whipping out the "you just wait" arguement again. *sheesh*

Again, I do accept biological predispositioning, I am just saying that it will not be my scapegoat, my explanation and excuse when I choose to overeat, or my justification for controlling what my daughter chooses or not chooses to put in her body.

These discussions always seem to (unfortunately) sink down to the "what about heroin" lines and what if's -- and while I can somewhat see the very loose analogy and comparison between a food which isn't the healthiest for our body and which we may crave -- and an injected, federally illegal chemical substance, I don't buy it. My daughter will know how I feel about massive amounts of "unhealthy" foods the same way she will know where I stand on heroin --- but at the end of the day, I can't control it if she chooses heroin either beyond a certain age -- and I HOPE I will have relayed the reasoning behind wanting to be healthy for one's own sake and wellbeing and listening to one's own body cues and instincts and honoring one's goals for the future effectively enough so that she will make the active choice not to be unhealthy... or shoot heroin (sheesh)... rather than just the "we don't do heroin, it's bad" ... or the "we can't eat a piece of chocolate before broccolli, that's bad" or whatever.

I mean, if it helps to think I just have a wonderful, extraordinary, brilliant daughter who is so in tune to her instincts I don't have to control her food intake... go for it... I think she is pretty great myself







... more realistic though, is just that I am allowing her to do what her body is already designed to do with the factors she has accepted and knows (confidence she will always have food available etc) and providing her with information, guidance, and healthy nutritious foods which meet the "biological" need for some "sweets" (fruit and the like). A function I believe most people are born with.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Okay, we are whipping out the "you just wait" arguement again. *sheesh*

Again, I do accept biological predispositioning, I am just saying that it will not be my scapegoat, my explanation and excuse when I choose to overeat, or my justification for controlling what my daughter chooses or not chooses to put in her body.

These discussions always seem to (unfortunately) sink down to the "what about heroin" lines and what if's -- and while I can somewhat see the very loose analogy and comparison between a food which isn't the healthiest for our body and which we may crave -- and an injected, federally illegal chemical substance, I don't buy it. My daughter will know how I feel about massive amounts of "unhealthy" foods the same way she will know where I stand on heroin --- but at the end of the day, I can't control it if she chooses heroin either beyond a certain age -- and I HOPE I will have relayed the reasoning behind wanting to be healthy for one's own sake and wellbeing and listening to one's own body cues and instincts and honoring one's goals for the future effectively enough so that she will make the active choice not to be unhealthy... or shoot heroin (sheesh)... rather than just the "we don't do heroin, it's bad" ... or the "we can't eat a piece of chocolate before broccolli, that's bad" or whatever.

I mean, if it helps to think I just have a wonderful, extraordinary, brilliant daughter who is so in tune to her instincts I don't have to control her food intake... go for it... I think she is pretty great myself







... more realistic though, is just that I am allowing her to do what her body is already designed to do with the factors she has accepted and knows (confidence she will always have food available etc) and providing her with information, guidance, and healthy nutritious foods which meet the "biological" need for some "sweets" (fruit and the like). A function I believe most people are born with.

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make the heroin analogy very clear. I was just trying to defend our biological urges to overeat against your argument that we should not have those urges because refined sugar wasn't available until recently. I guess I didn't make much sense.

I think we're mostly on the same page, here. I don't agree with making a veggie a requirement for a sweet treat. I trust my children to choose from a range of healthy choices, and I try to make every food group readily available. If they only choose to eat fruit, so be it. I trust their bodies know what they need, to an extent. I also totally believe in moderation, and in indulging in occasional treats. I love to make white flour, buttercream frosted cakes for birthdays, and we usually buy a small thing of chocolate when we go to the store.

But I am totally unwilling to buy as much junk as my dd wants me to. I think that makes it an unfair fight, and I won't put that much responsibility on her good judgement at this age. Plus, it's too expensive.

Irinam, you mentioned that your children occasionally eat dessert all day. What do you mean by "dessert"? Are you talking whole wheat peanut butter cookies, or Twinkies? I would probably be okay with the former, and abhorred by the latter.


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## mamma.mia (Oct 11, 2006)

Hey Candy! I agree with you 100%! I don't believe in making kids eat everything on their plate. DD is 4 and very picky. But I have her sit with us at meals and eat until she's full. If I feel like she hasn't eaten at all, I'll say, "ok, but I'll leave your plate here, and you can't have any snacks later until you eat more bites of dinner." 9 times out of 10, she'll come back and eat more.

~Mia


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 

Irinam, you mentioned that your children occasionally eat dessert all day. What do you mean by "dessert"? Are you talking whole wheat peanut butter cookies, or Twinkies? I would probably be okay with the former, and abhorred by the latter.









Now I am confused and have to go re-read my posts... I said that?

ETA - can not find that. None of us are "into" dessert much. What I did say is that they may start their dinner with dessert (that is if we have sweets around the house, or if the icecream truck went by).


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
ETA - can not find that. None of us are "into" dessert much. What I did say is that they may start their dinner with dessert (that is if we have sweets around the house, or if the icecream truck went by).

Sorry! I guess I misread it, I thought you said that some days they just eat dessert all day.

So does your six year old ever ask you to buy things you'd prefer not to, or that you know are unhealthy? How do you handle that?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
So does your six year old ever ask you to buy things you'd prefer not to, or that you know are unhealthy? How do you handle that?

Yes, she does now and then (like the icercream from the icecream truck can not be healthy







) I do and we go on our merry way. She actually never finishes it, sometimes we have 2 or 3 somewhat eaten icecreams in the freezer. But that's besides the point.

I don't concentrate on NOT healthy. I concentrate on healthy. I (and her, because she wants to be like me







) read the labels in the store. She knows "artificial colors", "artificial flavors" "high fructose corn syrup" and such. She even knows that Tylenol and other OTC medicines are not "curing" the body and will judge her fever herself (she was recently sick) and sometimes when I offer, she will say "no, I still can handle it"

We grow some of our own veggies (it's rather new for us, but we are having fun with it!)

We talk about our body - "bad germs" / "good germs" (my term for probiotics, LOL), importance of fever, importance of water, importance of natural foods, importance of sleep, teeth brushing, excersice, fresh air - you name it.

But she also says "A little bit is not going to hurt my strong body, right mama?" And... I agree with her









It's a fun thing for us to do - almost like "our health vs. mainstream food industry"


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Hi, just wanted to jump back in because no one commented and I really need some feedback...what to do when a 2.5 year old still wants to be fed much of the time...asks for me to give him his bites...asks for me to play food games. Totally benign? Sign of something unhealthy? Something else? Would just love some feedback...


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Ok, the reason why processed sugar and HFCS is craved now a days once one acctually gets a taste of it is, the biological urge for sweet easily stored things.

Processed refined sugar and HFCS, once introduced to the diet, triggers that "Oh wow this is easily stored! It digests so quick and stores so efficiently, I have to keep eating this so I can keep my winter stores up" instinct. Back in the day when we NEEDED this instinct, we didn't have HFCS and refined sugar, we had fruits, berries, and the like...but now, with the advent of that, it takes advantage of that in built hoarding gorging instinct that many people have, mostly those of European descent, or those who are closer to the hunter gatherer lifestyle, like First Nations (Note: Type 2 diabetes is INSANE in the first nation population...) Your nutritional hording tendencies are related to where your ancestors lived.


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## Mom2lilpeeps (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
Hi, just wanted to jump back in because no one commented and I really need some feedback...what to do when a 2.5 year old still wants to be fed much of the time...asks for me to give him his bites...asks for me to play food games. Totally benign? Sign of something unhealthy? Something else? Would just love some feedback...

I am curious to hear what others say as well. My two little people are grazers and do well with finger foods but as I mentioned before they are both less than adept with utensils. They also often prefer that Mommy or Daddy "feed me" and we oblige. I must confess that when each of them started eating solids, I would mostly finger feed them. Sometimes that is the still the only way they want to eat. Again, I expect by the time they go off to college or into the world they will be eating on their own with utensils and have mastered most social graces. I don't worry too much about it.

Your food games are not in order to coerce him to eat so I don't see it being a problem. Other more experienced Mammas may disagree so I will watch and see. Again, by the time your ds enters the world I highly doubt he'll come home emaciated because he just couldn't eat without you doing the helicopter thing.














I can't see how having fun at meal times could be damaging but what do I know. I just see this baby/toddler time flying by so quickly (most days....) and before you know it they won't want or need to be fed or have us make mokeys out of ourselves with silly impersonations. Just my opinion.

BTW we use bananas for 'telephones' at our house!!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Natensarah -- I actually think we are on the same page-- remember, in a consensual approach to family living, I have my own boundaries as well. I couldn't buy our daughter all the *junk* she wanted, even if I were willing to because we are on a pretty tight budget and it is literally not possible if the rest of the family (me and dh) actually wanted to eat real food --- I can't speak to the future but I don't see that as being an issue -- as irina touched on, our children want to be like us, they emulate us, look up to us -- and while I certainly do not exploit that in our daughter, I can say that I utilize that trait when modeling behaviors that I would participate in whether I had a child or not (trying to eat healthy, be kind to others etc) -- to be clear, I never say things like "look mama is eating her veggies...don't you want some" or anything like that. I consider that manipulative and wrong for our family -- rather, it is a way more subtle thing -- it is just how we do things -- hard to articulate.

Yes, there have been times she has expressed interest in things I would never otherwise have exposed her to (processed cheese slices at my mom's house for instance), but I let her have it, without a show, or lecture, or fanfare or making any deal of it -- I did offer alternatives which she was free to take or leave -- blah she had a couple bites and was on to other things. I guess I am just saying the more power we give to things, the more allure they have in many cases. Food (among many other things) is not something I want to make any deal over unless I saw a serious health concern approaching.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Posting again just to touch on the feeding of children issue --- I am really a big advocate of self feeding and believe that feeding babies can and often does lead to children who don't know their hunger cues -- and to parents who are force feeding without intending to ---

That having been said though, our daughter likes me to feed her sometimes, and I don't know if it is a novelty thing, or if she is pretending to be a little birdie, or whether it is just easier for her at this point because she is not the greatest at utensils yet or what it is -- as we never really *fed* her as an infant and she would make a royal mess feeding herself happily which we were fine with --

I mean on one hand I am not entirely comfortable with it, as I can see where it may cause potential problems in some instances (with overeating and the like) but on the other hand, I think when we do feed her we do so responsibly --- I don't hold the spoon up to her mouth, or say "one more bite" or anything of the sort, I usually just sit there and she signs or says *more* then I will give her a bite --- she seems to have no problem stopping when she is done, even if that means she has only had 2 bites -- and we are fine with that.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Yep, my DD also wanted to be "fed like a baby" (her words) some times. She would tell me when she was full.

She knows how to use her utensils now









Come to think of it, even now she would sometimes ask for it. I do not mind and do not see it as detrimental to anything, rather as cute and nostalgic (already







)


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Another one who doesn't think it's necessarily a bad thing to feed them. My dd went through a stage like that where we played airplane and flew all over. The spoon had to go visit all kinds of various people, go to the grocery store, etc. I don't think she ended up taking very many bites. It probably would have been just as fun with an empty spoon, actually. Seemed like no big deal to me.

CaptainCrunchy, ITA about giving power to food. I really don't want to do that, so I've tried to keep a similar attitude as you. I have really had to bite my tongue when my friend brings my dd Capri Sun and "fruit snacks", which are really just gummy bears, but I figure it falls into the realm of occasional treat. A little more occasional than I would prefer, but still...

I wanted to also share an interesting story from our house this afternoon. My dd is transitioning out of her nap, which has been hard for her, but some days she's too tired and wants to go to sleep, but then has a really hard time getting going again. Today was one of those days. She woke up around 4:00 and was just having a really hard time, I could tell she felt awful. Well, I found her in the kitchen on the counter rifling through the cupboard looking for some stale old marshmallows we had from camping.

I've noticed her tendency to do this a lot -- when she's tired or doesn't feel good she starts looking for refined sugar. And today, she had looked past prunes, dried blueberries, nectarines, and muffins sweetened with applesauce to get to the real stuff. I'm not surprised by this, as dh and I both have struggled with various addictions to various substances that pep you up, but I'm glad to be aware of it so early.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam* 
Yes, she does now and then (like the icercream from the icecream truck can not be healthy







) I do and we go on our merry way. She actually never finishes it, sometimes we have 2 or 3 somewhat eaten icecreams in the freezer. But that's besides the point.

I don't concentrate on NOT healthy. I concentrate on healthy. I (and her, because she wants to be like me







) read the labels in the store. She knows "artificial colors", "artificial flavors" "high fructose corn syrup" and such. She even knows that Tylenol and other OTC medicines are not "curing" the body and will judge her fever herself (she was recently sick) and sometimes when I offer, she will say "no, I still can handle it"

We grow some of our own veggies (it's rather new for us, but we are having fun with it!)

We talk about our body - "bad germs" / "good germs" (my term for probiotics, LOL), importance of fever, importance of water, importance of natural foods, importance of sleep, teeth brushing, excersice, fresh air - you name it.

But she also says "A little bit is not going to hurt my strong body, right mama?" And... I agree with her









It's a fun thing for us to do - almost like "our health vs. mainstream food industry"









Just wanted to say that I think this is awesome, and this is what I hope to do with my kids. I really want them to be informed eaters, I think that's invaluable.

I also love the saying about "my strong body"!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Okay, we are whipping out the "you just wait" arguement again. *sheesh*

I wasn't really trying to whip out the "just you wait" argument. It just strikes me as funny that "the unschooling lists will be full of posts about uneaten Halloween candy" seemed to be trying to make some kind of point. I try very hard not to make food a battleground or any kind of issue at all...but it is difficult, because I do have food issues of my own. DD is an out and out sugar junkie. She'd happily eat candy and cookies all day long. She's been like this since she tasted her first sweets. I'm dealing with totally uncharted territory here, because ds1 wasn't like this until puberty.

And, for the record, the only time I do the "you have to eat this before you can have that" is when dd asks for things, and takes a bite out of them, then wants something else. I'm not going to throw away most of an apple, then most of a banana, then most of a chunk of cheese, then most of a cup of yogurt, etc., etc., just because dd changes her mind every 20 seconds.


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## Krystal323 (May 14, 2004)

i like my kids to sit with us if we're having a sit-down meal. if i've cooked, and esp. if someone's cooked for us, i ask them to take a taste-bite of everything and to be polite about it even if it's nasty-tasting to them.

I don't go out of my way to make them ninetymillion meals if they don't eat, I figure another appetite of theirs will just show up later, and they can have leftovers or whatever's avaliable then









it blows my mind when parents don't pay attn to their kid unless it's about nagging them to clean their plates, then wonder why they "never eat". of course they don't eat when mom and dad are around, they'd rather get bad attn then no attn from their parents!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Lisa - I'm with you on the way that different kids seem to form different habits. I've been staying out of this conversation, until now, because if I had posted about my older son several years ago, I'd have been bragging about what healthy choices he makes! But my younger son is around now too, he is six now, and we approached things basically the same way (except that he nursed a lot longer) and he craves sweets and junk constantly! Its horrible, and wears me down. He turns his nose up at the foods that we eat, and begs us to go buy junk. His latest question is, "Isn't there anything healthy that tastes like candy????"

Oddly, the little one picky kid is skinny, and the big one who eats beans and rice, very few desserts, etc.. is on the heavy side. So I don't know what to do with that!

Anyway, its not so much a "just you wait argument," as much as a "Gosh, I'm getting less sure of myself as we go!" kind of comment.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Anyway, its not so much a "just you wait argument," as much as a "Gosh, I'm getting less sure of myself as we go!" kind of comment.

That's it, exactly. I figured I had it nailed when ds1 was little, and I was occasionally even a little smug about my kindergartner happily walking off to school with his chopped green peppers for a snack. However, this same kid will barely touch a vegetable now, and about the only fruits he still seems to like are mangoes, peaches and berries of all kinds.

And, I frankly don't feel like I have a clue what to do where dd's eating habits are concerned. *sigh*

My mom also handled all three of us the same way with respect to food, and I'm the only one who really has issues with sweets and such. As I said, I do know where that came from, and it wasn't mom, but my sister had almost the exact same experiences that I had, and isn't hooked on sweets. My brother has almost no sweet tooth at all, much like my mom. (Interestingly enough, with respect to this discussion, my mom was raised very much with the "clean your plate" attitude, and she has no trouble with food at all...she eats what feels right for her, and always has.)


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## hotpreggermama (May 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Well, I try not to create food issues/struggles. But my 6 yo. is really testing my resolve lately, and I'm starting to get an inkling of compassion for families who do things differently!

Its hard when he decides he'd rather play than eat, and then he melts down because he is weak and hungry. Its hard when he decides to eat 6 pieces of cornbread and no protein, and is then hungry in the middle of the night.

But basically, yeah -- the whole "clean your plate" thing gets to me.


I'm with you on that one. Also, when the kiddo nurses constantly and is crabby all day because he's hungry, but won't eat food because nursing is much more fun, and also the increased nightwakings because he is hungry. I've actually instituted a policy of "you must eat breakfast before nursing". If I suspect that he wants to nurse because he's hungry, I expect him to eat something first.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

The idea of force feeding really bothers me, too. I think children should be able to choose what they want or don't want to eat from what's being served at each meal. Of course, I would never keep sugary or processed junk food in the house, so all food choices would be healthy ones.

I don't think food should ever become a power struggle or control issue, but I think parents have to exert a little control over what foods are made available because we have to fight the junk food powers that be (the processed food manufacturers, the advertisers, and the Standard American Diet that most people eat) who are constantly pushing unhealthy food at children.

On the topic of picky eaters, I found an interesting article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C0A96F948260


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Okay, I read some of the replies to this but not all, hopefully I didn't miss the ones that speak of this...

I feed our 2 yo daughter whatever we're eating for dinner. She loves to use forks/spoons, she actually asks for them. I often have to encourage her to just pick it up and eat it with her hands like mommy is because she likes to stab her food. If it gets on her finger she thinks its funny...







We eat healthy and I cook almost all of our meals from real food that requires cooking. She does get fun food for lunch and snacks all throughout the day.

I guess my point is, I don't want to become a short order cook and have my dd used to having something that she "wants." I don't force her to eat any food and alot of times I plan something for dinner that I know we all like so that liking food isn't an issue. I do get the "don't like" from her recently but that's it. That's the food we have...why should I cater to an attitude that I may not be able to be consistent with...like when we're at someone elses house visiting, a restaurant, on a tight budget, etc?


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