# does anyone else not really care what other women feed their babies?



## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Let me start this by saying that I was passionate about bf'ing my own child, and did so for almost 5 years-that i boycott nestle, and am in general strong agreement that bf is best. That said, I just don't get all that worked up about what other women decide is best for them. I don't say, walk through the grocery store tsk-tsking women who are buying cans of formula. I just don't feel alot of angst at the idea that other babies aren't being breastfed. I sort of feel, well, at least they are being fed. many babies aren't so lucky.

And i definitely know mothers who bf who aren't, imo, the best mothers. and of course we all know moms who ff who are awesome mamas. i used to be a member of hipmama, which had a whole forum called something like Breast is best, but formula ain't poison-where mamas who were ap but didn't/couldn't bf for one reason or another gave advice and tips on ff with love, and shared coupons and stuff like that-free from worry that the rest of us, passionate about breastfeeding as we may be-would flame them for it.

I guess I feel like bf/ff debates are just one more way for mamas to be divided, when together we could accomplish so much.

i guess i just save my ire for more important things. Like, what kind of mileage someone gets.


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

I work in perinatal care, and now I am all about the kid eating. Just eating. Regularly. I am all for promoting breastfeeding but if a woman flat out says she ain't gonna I don't kick 'er to the curb.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

see folks, i told you. all the _really_ cool kids are saying true dat.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

I haven't been able to get my knickers twisted about the whole BF/FF thing. I tried, but in the end I just couldn't bring myself to believe that a kid who was getting enough to eat, in a nutritive form, was somehow being harmed - even if that form wouldn't have been my first choice. (BTW, I nursed both of mine and I'll go to the wall with anyone who suggests that I don't have the chops for this discussion - said in the nicest possible way, of course







)

There are an awful lot of kids everywhere who don't have enough of anything to eat and I'd rather worry about/help them before getting all bent about a kid who's not getting what I've worked out to be preferable.

That said, I have tremendous admiration for women involved in lactation education and LLL, and those healthcare workers who provide free home visits to women struggling with nursing. These people are heroic in their conviction and walking their talk. Awesome!


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I don't really care... My son had to be formula fed through a lact-aid. It's when those ff mamas says that formula is just as good nutritionally (and I've heard ff mamas say *better* ) than bm that gets to me. Why did I try to hard if formula was just as good? So, no, I don't care...just don't go spreading misinformation about it and know what you're putting into your child.









It's like almost anything else for me...I don't care if you put your baby in a crib, use disposable diapers, or vaccinate...just don't be ambivelant about what you're doing. I'm a big advocate in doing your research and coming to an informed educated decision.


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

What a GREAT post!

I am new here (today







: )and I was alittle nervous joining at first. I have been lurking and I have noticed alot of ANTI-FF!

I am a PROUD FORMULA FEEDING MOMMY! I tried so hard to BF both of my kids. Each time it was a nightmare. I became depressed and detached from my hubby. He is so supportive of BF and I really wanted to do it. But I just couldnt. I cant explain why-it just didnt work out for us. So we FF and are very happy with it. I do believe in "nursing" my bottle feeder. Meaning I always look into his eyes and stroke his hand when he is eating. He also snuggles into me real close. In the past week he smiles at me mid feeding. It is pure love.

I think BF/FF is both equally great. I just want to take care of my children and not defend why I am FF. Just as a BF mom should not have to defend herself. We are all equal and taking care of the most precious people in the world.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

mama ganoush... you have balls! however, I will bite because this is something that I've been thinking about since I joined MDC.

If a mama really doesn't want breatfeed, then what good does it do to make her feel bad or force her to do it? I spend enough of my time trying to help people who want to but are having problems keep going... and there aren't enough people to help them. I cannot imagine wasting time trying to force someone who truly does not want to do it.

I know more people who use formula IRL than nurse. I don't know why and I don't ask why. It is none of my business. They love their babies just as much as I love mine. They are great mamas and I enjoy their friendship. Period.

Also for me it is a women's right to choose what to do with her body... like anything else. I do not believe that decisions should be made for her by removing formula from stores and making it available only by prescription. And as one of the PP mentioned there are many babies who would starve if this was not an available option. Feed the baby.

This is why I do not spend much/any time in the BF-ing forums. Not a popular opinion, but also not pro-formula. Pro choice.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Orchid*
mama ganoush... you have balls! however, I will bite because this is something that I've been thinking about since I joined MDC.


i have literally been sitting on this one for months. and i have to say that so far, i am pleasantly shocked by the positive responses.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

I'll be honest, formula feeding still bugs me but definitely not like it did when I first had my son. As my child gets older I realize more and more that I'm not a perfect person or mother so I am constantly losing a bit of my self righteousness here and there.









It isn't so much the formula itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of many formula feeding moms that I have encountered. I've met plenty of women who just didn't want to do it! Plain and simple. Didn't want to try because they had already decided long before the baby came that it would just be to inconvenient for them. Yes, that bothers that crap out of me! Not that the kid is having formula, but that the mother is unwilling to make a sacrifice for her child's well being.

Other than that I've really worked on not being so judgmental. Yeah I would prefer all babies be breastfed but I do understand that doesn't always work out so I do try to walk a mile first so to speak&#8230;


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I am all about informed choice. I don't think everyone has all the information though, partky because of formula compnies, incompetent doctors, etc. I would never fault a woman for ff. However, I do find fault with formula companies and their un ethical marketing tctics, doctors and nurses giving out bad info, and our culture that glorifies bottlefeeding and hypersexualizes breasts.


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## SmilingChick (Apr 6, 2005)

MamaG, I agree with you and I am surprised by the positive responses too.

I wish more mothers would BF, and I do think "tsk tsk" to myself when I hear people say they're not bf-ing because it's gross or they feel it's inconvenient, but I don't think it's my place to get into a battle with a woman over how she should raise her children.


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## umbrella (Jul 25, 2002)

What gets my knickers in a bunch is NOT that some women choose formula--- it's that so many women are incorrectly steered into using only formula, as though it's better and/or their breastfeeding efforts utterly sabotaged, etc. I know many mothers who used formula "just because that's what you do," and _later_ realized that there are real health issues involved, and thus regret their irreversible choice; they weren't given the opportunity to make an informed choice, or to simply choose what they thought would be best for their circumstances.

I get bothered when people undermine a woman's efforts to breastfeed because _they_ don't think it matters.

eta: so it seems that _that's_ how so many debates start, imo. A bf mother has to _justify_ her choice, and ff mothers often end up defensive and on the offensive as well. At least, offensive ff has been _my_ experience, with family anyway.


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## umbrella (Jul 25, 2002)

Oh, but I agree with the op about the whole, scoping out for babies with bottles, and tsk tsking. I don't get that.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Moving this to Parenting Issues...


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umbrella*
Oh, but I agree with the op about the whole, scoping out for babies with bottles, and tsk tsking. I don't get that.


and i agree with you about wanting every woman who chooses to bf to be adequately supported and encouraged.

eta-look at me! i'm in parenting issues.


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## Best Feeling (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *umbrella*
What gets my knickers in a bunch is NOT that some women choose formula--- it's that so many women are incorrectly steered into using only formula, as though it's better and/or their breastfeeding efforts utterly sabotaged, etc. I know many mothers who used formula "just because that's what you do," and _later_ realized that there are real health issues involved, and thus regret their irreversible choice; they weren't given the opportunity to make an informed choice, or to simply choose what they thought would be best for their circumstances.

I get bothered when people undermine a woman's efforts to breastfeed because _they_ don't think it matters.

ITA!! It also makes me sad when someone just blindly goes by what their doctor says. I have a friend who is supplementing at her ped's recommendation







: I provided some info and some links but she wouldn't dare go against what the almighty doctor tells her to do. *sigh*


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't have any issue with women who seriously tried to bf and couldn't. But I am bugged by those who FF because "breastfeeding is gross" or "too much work" or whatever.

Other people's choice to FF does affect all of us. The cost of healthcare is driven up by the illnesses and allergies which could have been prevented by human milk. I'm annoyed by the saturation of bottle=baby images in media, and troubled by the questionable treatment dairy cows who produce the milk to which we North Americans are so hooked.

Formula is fine and will usually nourish a baby well. Nevertheless, formula and breastmilk aren't equally great. It's just science.


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

I wanted to add that I am glad there is a choice for women. Imagine all the babies who would starve if there wasnt a choice.

I believe in choice!

I am jealous of BF moms though....I wish I was able to do it for at least a few months...But my kids are very healthy and I have to Thank God for that one!!!


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

I agree with Mama G. ( hmm another great t-shirt slogan) .

I do get a little upset when I hear things like - I don't BF becuase it's gross - or my breasts aren't for feeding... but The baby is eating - and most of the mothers I have known who FF have gone to formula after giving BF more than a fair shot. Sometimes it just doesn't work... It doesn't help those who couldn't get BF to work to come to their support community and get ripped on for not being AP/ Natural enough - and hearing things like " every woman can breastfeed they just don't want to" or " you didn't try hard enough" .


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm a LLLLeader and CLA and CCE. I do a lot of breastfeeding support, but that's because I want women do who want to, to have support- it doens't come easy to many women, and I'd like to work toward making bfing the "norm" again.
That being said, I don't have issue with moms who choose to ff. Who am I to judge anyone? I know lots of ffing moms, and believe me, they love thier babies JUST as much as I love mine...

I will admit I do feel that sick feeling in my stomach when I see a teeny baby in a bucket seat with a bottle propped with Mom not even paying attention....but that's not really about formula...
AND I do have an issue with formula manufacturers undermining breastfeeding.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

It's like almost anything else for me...I don't care if you put your baby in a crib, use disposable diapers, or vaccinate...just don't be ambivelant about what you're doing. I'm a big advocate in doing your research and coming to an informed educated decision.
That's how I feel. I get more worked up about the ignorance behind many parenting decisions than the decision itself.


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## shaywyn (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
That said, I just don't get all that worked up about what other women decide is best for them. I don't say, walk through the grocery store tsk-tsking women who are buying cans of formula. I just don't feel alot of angst at the idea that other babies aren't being breastfed. I sort of feel, well, at least they are being fed. many babies aren't so lucky.

And i definitely know mothers who bf who aren't, imo, the best mothers. and of course we all know moms who ff who are awesome mamas.

I guess I feel like bf/ff debates are just one more way for mamas to be divided, when together we could accomplish so much.


All of that







I am more about influencing women to breastfeed by constantly bragging about how great it is









My neighborhood also has way more ff than bf but it's slowly changing. I would rather be a positive example than an enemy. Plus, I was formula fed in the mid 60's, no telling what was in that,







and I'm pretty smart for the average bear. Well, on a good day :LOL

I am passionate about bf my own children and the rights of women who choose to bf, but like you said I do not suffer a whole lot of angst over women who do not.


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## WriterMama (Mar 27, 2002)

My thinking has evolved over this subject as well. With my first ds, I researched *everything* and was sure that if someone else put in the same time and effort as I had to my "studies" they would arrive at the same conclusions.







: Yes, very naive, lol.

Now, I still feel very happy about the choices we've made, but I also realize that my circumstances, background, education, life experience, etc. are not the same as another person's, and each has to make the choice that is right for her. Of course, it irks me when people make completely thoughtless, uneducated choices, but I've got too much too worry about in raising my own children to get all bent out of shape about what others do (as long as it doesn't harm children, of course).

I have to admit that it would bother me somewhat if my sisters didn't nurse their babies--yeah, I guess I'm a hypocrite in that way. However, the one nursed her dd for 9 months (single mom who worked) and the other sis who is due any day plans to nurse until she goes back to work, at which time she will pump. She seems very adament about it









And I too agree that the support people are wonderful--LLL, lac consultants, etc. For the mom that really wants to bf, it's great that there are people out there who will help them succeed.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I guess I'm thinking ahead. I look at my 10 year old son and think about the next decade as he moves into adulthood. I DO care how all the other kids his age were parented, fed, medically cared for. Those kids are going to be his colleagues, neighbors, spouse! One of them will be my DIL/SIL! I'd like them all to be as healthy and well-loved as possible.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

oh, i LOVE the Edit button. I've gotta take a walk now!


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

It used to bother me a lot more, but now, I don't care so much. But I'm too lazy to elaborate, so I'll just have to quote some people.

Quote:

It isn't so much the formula itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of many formula feeding moms that I have encountered. I've met plenty of women who just didn't want to do it! Plain and simple. Didn't want to try because they had already decided long before the baby came that it would just be to inconvenient for them. Yes, that bothers that crap out of me! Not that the kid is having formula, but that the mother is unwilling to make a sacrifice for her child's well being.
Yep.

Quote:

*Other people's choice to FF does affect all of us.* The cost of healthcare is driven up by the illnesses and allergies which could have been prevented by human milk. I'm annoyed by the saturation of bottle=baby images in media, and troubled by the questionable treatment dairy cows who produce the milk to which we North Americans are so hooked.









Exactly. Not to mention the environmental impact of FF- huge.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sillymommaX2*
I think BF/FF is both equally great.

No, they are not. Breastmilk is superior to formula, there is no question about that.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WriterMama*
I have to admit that it would bother me somewhat if my sisters didn't nurse their babies--yeah, I guess I'm a hypocrite in that way.

Oooh, it would crush me if my daughter chose to FF. I guess I'm petty.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I would never say anything to another mama, but I feel a little sorry for babes who aren't bfed. I realize some mamas try and aren't successful, or can't breastfeed for some reason, and I feel sorry for the mamas too. Sorry that they don't have this experience. And for mamas who don't like breastfeeding, I feel sorry that they don't feel the bliss that I do from nursing my babe.

Do I think formula is bad? Nope. I just think there's something better.


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## mamatojade (Jun 2, 2004)

Vermillion said:


> It isn't so much the formula itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of many formula feeding moms that I have encountered. I've met plenty of women who just didn't want to do it! Plain and simple. Didn't want to try because they had already decided long before the baby came that it would just be to inconvenient for them. Yes, that bothers that crap out of me! Not that the kid is having formula, but that the mother is unwilling to make a sacrifice for her child's well being.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Orchid*
Also for me it is a women's right to choose what to do with her body... like anything else.


Amen to that.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

As a mother who wasn't able to nurse, I never ever felt like anyone ever looked at me weird for bottle-feeding. _I_ was self-conscious of it, but no one else seemed to care. I bottlefed breastmilk at LLL meetings and did of course explain myself (the leader's 5yo daughter was confused), but no one ever thought or looked like they felt like I just didn't try hard enough or like I was a bad mom (though I certainly felt those things at times, even though pumping for 13 months is a LOT harder than nursing, I'm told). Now, of course, my son was given breastmilk, so that makes our situation quite different, but he did have some formula over time and now he's addicted to cow's milk.

My point is that there is a TON of support out there for formula feeding. That's the problem! Formula feeding is the norm. Formula feeding is not questioned. An eye does not bat at moms in Target buying carts full of Enfamil. There are us lactivists out there, certainly, and we've been publicly criticized LOTS for how judgemental we are (how hypocritical!







). It's been on The View and Naomi Woolf called LLL the "Lactation Fascists" and the "Milk Missionaries" in her book Misconceptions. So we can know that ultimately that what matters is that children are fed, but seriously, there is a best choice and it is not the one that is majorly accepted here in the US.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

tough one...i don't go around noticing what people are putting into their shopping carts.

i do care about the cultural issues and the big business behind the bf/ff conflicts. not my pet issue though...


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*

My point is that there is a TON of support out there for formula feeding. That's the problem! Formula feeding is the norm. Formula feeding is not questioned.

i guess it is different for me. i don't know anyone irl or url who is supportive of ff. so when i have heard of women talking about 'nipple nazis' and feeling turned off about bf by what they see as an overzealous bf movement, i can see their point.

and of course, in my ideal world, every woman who can would choose to bf, and be supported in that choice. and i am also adamantly against the unethical behavior of formula companies.

it is just that when i think of all the atrocities committed against babies and children all over the world, there's not much room left over to get irked at moms who choose not to bf, whatever their reason. When I think of babies trying to live in a war zone, it is hard to get worked up about western/american babies being formula fed.

If i'd gone back to work after having jade, i honestly don't know if i would have pumped. the couple times i tried it, i hated it. i probably wouldn't have bf jade for the five years if i'd gone back to work. and i know that people i respect here and irl would think unkiind thoughts about me for that. and that kind of sucks.

nothing like divide and conquer. it's been working for the patriarchy for eons.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

It isn't so much the formula itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of many formula feeding moms that I have encountered. I've met plenty of women who just didn't want to do it! Plain and simple. Didn't want to try because they had already decided long before the baby came that it would just be to inconvenient for them. Yes, that bothers that crap out of me! Not that the kid is having formula, but that the mother is unwilling to make a sacrifice for her child's well being.
Yup...that...

Also....

Quote:

Also for me it is a women's right to choose what to do with her body... like anything else.
I don't really agree, simply because it is not just a choice for her OWN body...it is a choice she is making for the welfare of her child's body, even moreso than for herself. A woman doesn't CHOOSE to make milk....over 95% of women just like, produce milk when they give birth..it is a biologically natural event that occurs and left to your body's own devices (barring medical problems etc) you are DESIGNED to breastfeed....so that "making a choice" arguement doesn't really fly with me...sorry.
I *kind* of see what you were getting at, and ultimately, you can choose to breastfeed or not, that is a choice you have...but putting it in the scope of choosing what to do "with your body"...your body has chosen FOR you...you are stopping the natural order that God/nature/evolution (whatever you believe) intended you to do...

As far as being proud to be a forumla feeding mom...I dunno...I am speaking PERSONALLY about MYSELF so save your tomatoes please... I personally would not be proud to formula feed. I would be happy that my baby wasn't starving of course, and I don't feel that I should live my life in guilt or shame if it was something I *had* to do (that would be just it though, the only way I would FF is if I had to)...but being proud of it? Nah, I wouldn't be. The same way as if I were homeless and starving on the street and we had to dive in dumpsters to live, I wouldn't be proud of that... I am NOT comparing formula to trash (well, chemically speaking I am I guess) ...but what I mean is, yes, I would feel good in knowing that I didn't let my child starve, but I wouldn't shout it from the rooftops...

I am passionately pro-breastfeeding, I feel it is a BIRTHRIGHT...and while I wouldn't ever be *crazy* --like bitching someone out in the checkout line for having a can of formula...that is plain nuts--- Inside, I really do get my panties all in a bunch when women who are perfectly healthy, perfectly able, producing enough milk, choose NOT to breastfeed for completely selfish, arbitrary reasons.

I feel that way because it affects ALL of us. NO woman would be asked to breastfeed in a bathroom stall if 95% of women exclusively breastfeed (that is roughly the percentage that are physically able to)....NO woman would get hassled at work for having to pump at specific times if it was totally commonplace and accepted to do so....NO woman would get the rolled eyes, tsk tsk, you are a sexual deviant glare when breastfeeding their 14 month old if it were perfectly *normal* and accepted to do...NO little girl would think it was normal to buy a dolly with a bottle if we all breastfed...men might actually be more respectful of all women in general if they saw breasts as a means to nourish children and babies FIRST--BEFORE seeing them as a way to sell chicken wings and cars (do you know that in tribal cultures, the thought of breasts being sexual is laughable to them? They think it is silly)

on and on and on and on...

So while I feel that formula feeding moms ARE good moms in a lot of ways and I don't see them as evil or anything at all...and I have people close to me that have FF and I haven't tried to make them feel like poop or anything --- I do think the women who CHOOSE, not having to do with anything medical, or whatever, but just for *convenience* to FF are doing all women a disservice in certain ways...

Okay, throw the tomatoes.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
and of course, in my ideal world, every woman who can would choose to bf, and be supported in that choice. and i am also adamantly against the unethical behavior of formula companies.

it is just that when i think of all the atrocities committed against babies and children all over the world, there's not much room left over to get irked at moms who choose not to bf, whatever their reason. When I think of babies trying to live in a war zone, it is hard to get worked up about western/american babies being formula fed.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I generally don't really care if people ff or bf their baby.

I was bothered recently by a woman who casually said she was giving up bf after a week and a half and ff because the baby was just so hungry. The baby was putting on weight and getting her up only twice during the night. I didn't harass her about it but was surprised at someone not having trouble bf stopping for that reason.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

this whole issue popped in my head cause i read somewhere the story of this woman who had a baby in a sling, and was buying formula in a grocery store. and this other woman with a baby in a sling saw her, and instead of giving the "hey, we're both baby-wearing mamas, cool!" smile, gave her a really nasty-"you should know better, why the hell aren't you bf'ing your baby? lecture" -which sent the other woman home in tears. as it turned out, that baby was a miracle baby as mom had undergone a double masectomy due to breast cancer.







:


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Orchid*

Also for me it is a women's right to choose what to do with her body... like anything else..











Quote:

and am in general strong agreement that bf is best. That said, I just don't get all that worked up about what other women decide is best for them. I don't say, walk through the grocery store tsk-tsking women who are buying cans of formula. I just don't feel alot of angst at the idea that other babies aren't being breastfed. I sort of feel, well, at least they are being fed. many babies aren't so lucky.
Amen.

I love you Mama G


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*

And i definitely know mothers who bf who aren't, imo, the best mothers. and of course we all know moms who ff who are awesome mamas. i


Yup. Know a few of both myself.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah, no, I would never say anything or shoot dirty looks in grocery stores for FF or formula buyers because I DON'T know the whole story and because what would it serve or what good would it do???

I am speaking more in the scope of when you DO know the story, when some woman is like singing the praises of FF whether IRL or on more mainstream boards about how *wonderful it is* how it is *no different* than breastmilk...how they feel breastfeeding is *unnatural* (wtf??)

Then I get really cheesed off...


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
this whole issue popped in my head cause i read somewhere the story of this woman who had a baby in a sling, and was buying formula in a grocery store. and this other woman with a baby in a sling saw her, and instead of giving the "hey, we're both baby-wearing mamas, cool!" smile, gave her a really nasty-"you should know better, why the hell aren't you bf'ing your baby? lecture" -which sent the other woman home in tears. as it turned out, that baby was a miracle baby as mom had undergone a double masectomy due to breast cancer.







:


That's awful. I hate unsolicitated advice, especially the kind that comes in the form of a lecture full of shame and ignornace.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I am speaking more in the scope of when you DO know the story, when some woman is like singing the praises of FF whether IRL or on more mainstream boards about how *wonderful it is* how it is *no different* than breastmilk...how they feel breastfeeding is *unnatural* (wtf??)



well, that's just plain dumb. i mean, even formula companies have to advertise that breast is best.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

What a great thread. I'm the opposite of many of you.

Quote:

I'll be honest, formula feeding still bugs me but definitely not like it did when I first had my son. As my child gets older I realize more and more that I'm not a perfect person or mother so I am constantly losing a bit of my self righteousness here and there.
I used to not care at all, and the longer I BF'd my babyboy and the more research I do the more it bugs me. When DS was about 5 months I was the ONLY mother I knew that exclusively BF'd and I searched out my local LLL so I wouldn't feel so all alone. I also started reading MDC







. This might have been part of the trouble is that all these FFing moms had so much support, and were the "norm", and I was the freak, I was the one who felt unsupported. The whole movement to "not make a FF mom feel guilty".

I think what really gets to me now is the lack of education. I used to be so good about keeping my mouth shut, and smiling when 8 out of 10 moms in my town all tried to BF, but couldn't cause they weren't producing enough milk. I rteally should have called the water board or something because there is something wrong with the water in this town if so many motheres are having their milk dry up spontaneously.

I've never ever had a problem with moms who just simply choose not the BF. They may be making a choice that isn't the BEST or their baby. But at least they are willing to admit they made the choice. They aren't trying to cover up thier guilt with some sort of lie. I know that many of these moms who say so really believe that they aren't producing enough milk, but I also think that they don't do the resaerch to find out because they were never really comfortable with BBing in the first place, and now they have their excuse. Just say it wasn't for you, and I'm fine with it.


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## Danae (Jan 18, 2005)

For the most part I am just happy to see that a baby is getting fed whether it be by breast or by bottle. There is a part of me though that is suprised when I see a mama feeding their baby formula. For me, it was never even a question but, I do understand that some mama's may not feel comfortable with breast feeding i.e. past sexual abuse. I have had some issues come up while I've been breastfeeding Liberty but, I am luckily in therapy and I consider that stuff in the past for me.

Not to make this post all about me...I would never ever say anything if I saw a mama formula feeding. It is just not my business. We have no idea what information they've gotten or if there is any underlying issue. I do get that with our puritanical yet over sexualized society in the US a woman may feel that breast feeding is gross! But yet again, it is just not my business.

*Yesterday at the park I was bf Liberty (19 months) and one of the mama's made their child move away from us and covered his eyes. I just laughed!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Does anyone else really not care if babies aren't in carseats?
Does anyone else really not care if a mom drinks while pregnant?
Does anyone else really not care if a dad smokes around babies?
Does anyone else really not care if parents only feed their child fast food?
Does anyone else really not care if a parent lets their kid CIO or not?
Does anyone else really not care if someone spanks?


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## Danae (Jan 18, 2005)

Annette..I get what you are saying but, who are we to "police" other people?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Of course, the primary issue is that a baby is not being starved to death. But there is an awful lot in between "healthy and getting the best" and "death".

I think there are legitimate reasons for a mother not to breastfeed, and I am thankful that formula is there for them.

I think it is woefully overused. It would be like us walking around drinking slimfast supplements all the time rather than eating fresh food.

I care, not because I want to intrude on a mother;s right to choose, but because her choice has far-reaching implications on her baby's health for the rest of that baby's life.

I care, because her choices impact the environment.

I care, because I strongly feel that if a mother makes an UNINFORMED decision NOT to breastfeed, she is missing out on something truly miraculous.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danae*
Annette..I get what you are saying but, who are we to "police" other people?

Is caring policing?


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Does anyone else really not care if babies aren't in carseats?
Does anyone else really not care if a mom drinks while pregnant?
Does anyone else really not care if a dad smokes around babies?
Does anyone else really not care if parents only feed their child fast food?
Does anyone else really not care if a parent lets their kid CIO or not?
Does anyone else really not care if someone spanks?

Well, my parents did all of those things (minus the fast food). I turned out pretty ok....And you know what? They loved me very much.


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

I've been giving this alot of thought. And, my answer is, "No."
Of course, it's great if every mom would try to bf, but if you cannot...you cannot. And, if you choose to not bf, ok.
As long as the child is fed and clothed and loved, that's what matters.


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## Danae (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Is caring policing?

No, caring is not policing. I think maybe I took your post a little wrong (for a lack of better term). I was assuming (yes, I know) that you meant you would say something to parents who did not do those things.


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

nak...

one of my fave articles re: "breast is best" http://www.het.brown.edu/people/kjp/...r_language.htm


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I care, because I strongly feel that if a mother makes an UNINFORMED decision NOT to breastfeed, she is missing out on something truly miraculous.

OK, I guess I am feeling brave today, but I didn't feel BF my son was miraculous at all. Kinda cool, in a "that's what they're there for" way, but it wasn't wondrous for me. It was just a way to feed him for me. And I was informed and adamant that I make it work, but it wasn't anything incredible. I exclusively nursed until just past a year and then added solids and weaned just after 1 year and a half. For me it was the easiest and cheapest way to feed my son, but had I decied not to BF he still would have been a doted on in arms babe. So nursing was about food for me.

And I guess that's one of the reasons why I don't really care whether a babe is BF or FF cause I don't assume everyone will experience it as a miracle or holy, etc, so I don't assume every mama who FF is missing out on that particular part of the experience.


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

Quote from Ilaria:

No, they are not. Breastmilk is superior to formula, there is no question about that.

I understand that breastmilk is best....I wasnt saying that it wasnt. I guess I didnt phrase it right. I ment it is equally great that they are both food and both available.

I really hate when people use the phrase "Superior to Formula" Makes me feel like I made a bad choice and I didnt.


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## willowsmom (Oct 28, 2004)

Mama G - Great thread.









I'm guilty of mentally tsking women who ff. I know it's wrong...and I've made a conscious effort not to do it. That being said...

Like many of the previous posters, it not that the child is ff that's the problem...it's why. Take for instance my sister-in-law...she breastfed my 5 year old niece for 7 months. She knew the benefits...she knew all the statistics...my 8 month old nephew...not breastfed at all. Formula since day one. Why? "Because it just made my boobs look gross." Well...so does age, sister...and I KNOW you don't have the money to combat THAT.

I don't know...I lost my train of thought...that Fred Savage...cute kid.







:

Ok...What I'm saying is...I know better...we all know better than to fault someone for choices they make. Look what has been done to women who DO breastfeed and sling and sleep-share? If I go out in public on a particular day...I guarantee I will be stared at or someone will make a comment about my sling or if I breastfeed in public.

If we looked at the whole picture...or realized that sometimes there are extinuating circumstances that can't be helped...there would be no judgements made.

Ok...now my train derailed...







:


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
Well, my parents did all of those things (minus the fast food). I turned out pretty ok....And you know what? They loved me very much.









I'm sure they did. But anecdote is not evidence, and scientific evidence shows that breastmilk is the norm, and formula is inferior and carries health risks.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

There is a big difference between not putting a child in a carseat, smoking around them and not breastfeeding them. And advocating that way does not get you very far.

Educating people with the facts is different than caring how they feed their children. Its great to present someone with new information in a way that doesn't make them feel that you are putting them down.

And I have personal experience of my own and with women that I have supported of what you go through when you cannot make breastfeeding work. When you get to that point, you begin to justify the need to switch because you know that you are doing something that is less than the ideal and you have to justify it in your mind or you will never be able to move past it. Often that is why people will say "Its just as good" or get defensive. And many, many, many women who are perfectly capable of breastfeeding and really want to (I mean in terms of they have milk, etc) don't make it, because there are simply not enough support people around to help them figure out why it hurts, how to latch right, how to increase supply, why their baby cries all the time, etc, etc, etc... IMO we do them a disservice by comparing them with people who smoke around their children or not using a car seat and tsk-tsk'ing them.

Again, back to my opinion that spending time "educating" or judging someone who doesn't want it or berating and judging people who have already made their choice is a waste of time and energy. Why not focus on the ones who need help or are wavering in their decision? Or boycotting Nestle... Or lobbying the governement for better laws supporting breastfeeding and regulating formula marketing... Time better spent, IME.

I understand that it is up to each of us to decide how we choose to advocate and spend our time. Just sharing my opinion on the matter.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:

I really hate when people use the phrase "Superior to Formula" Makes me feel like I made a bad choice and I didnt.
If you feel that you made the right choice then why would you let that bother you? I am sorry, but breastmilk *is* superior to formula. Our bodies make breast milk because it *is* the perfect food for our babies. That is just life.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:

There is a big difference between not putting a child in a carseat, smoking around them and not breastfeeding them.
Really? What? Are they not all health and safety choices?

Quote:

And advocating that way does not get you very far.
If you choose to make ASSumptions from my posts, that's not my resposibility. I never said I was advocating that way.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
eta-look at me! i'm in parenting issues.


Well, are you surprised? After all, we all know you have..._issues_.

Count me as another who isn't down with the "miraculous, wondrous" bit regarding nursing. I mean, it was nice and all but I don't really feel more bonded than my sisters (who didn't nurse) and I didn't feel all ooey-gooey about it. It was free (came with the baby) and that was pretty much my driving factor (well, then again, I did shell out over $300 for a pump). And, contrary to propaganda, I didn't think it was necessarily more convenient than bottle feeding. Buying, mixing, cleaning and traveling with bottles wasn't more trouble than nursing, just a different kind of trouble.

I do want to stress that I am coming down on the side of nursing (to be read as: feeding breastmilk) as being preferable for a variety of reasons - most of them quite compelling. When I think of the spectrum of problems re: the raising and nurturing of children, though, whether or not they were/are being breastfed falls waaaaay down the list of things to be concerned about.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I guess I just don't really see the point of this thread. Some of us are passionate breastfeeding advocates, some of us aren't. Some of us may be passionate about other things- gay rights, pro-choice issues, stopping drinking and driving, legalizing MJ, stopping capital punishment- others, not.

Does anyone else not really care if anyone else agrees with their advocacy issues?


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I like to think that I wouldn't be as judgemental toward ff mothers as some of the women I've encountered at MDC (never irl), even if I hadn't struggled so hard to bf my first ds and eventually done the right thing for all of us and given him formula. I'll never know. But now that I've had the experience of both ff ds1 and breastfeeding ds2 successfully, I know that, like Mama G, there are other issues affecting women and children that seem way more important to me than what a baby is fed.

Sure, I wish all babies could be breastfed. I think it is a goal to strive for, and that lots more needs to be done to make it happen. It would really bother me if my sister or my dils in the future didn't want to bf. I would do all I could to persuade them to. But no, it's not my issue, and I'm not the one in the park or the supermarket giving dirty looks at a bottle-feeder. Having been one myself, it's not for me to say why that baby is drinking formula.

Mothers need to stand together, not pick each other apart.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

It only really bothers me when I see a baby not being held while being ff'ed (but who knows, it could possibly be bm in the bottle I guess).

It does bother me to see people who could have easily breastfed not even try. It's just so much healthier.

With that said, I really believe it's a FOOD issue, not a LOVE issue. I try not to make snap judgements because for all we know, the person in the grocery store buying cans of formula recently adopted and tried to bf unsuccessfully. Or has HIV and can't bf. Or whatever! There are some valid reasons for it.

As long as the baby is in a loving, caring, safe environment, that really is the most important thing. I truly 100% belive ff'ed babies are just as loved as bf'ed ones. The food in their tummies just isn't quite as perfect, that's all.


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vermillion*
If you feel that you made the right choice then why would you let that bother you? I am sorry, but breastmilk *is* superior to formula. Our bodies make breast milk because it *is* the perfect food for our babies. That is just life.

I had to make the choice to formula feed after trying and trying to BF two kids. I tried all the little devices. I have friends who were supportive my husband was supportive I am surrounded my nurses in my life who are supportive. I was so set on doing it but it just didnt go my way. Either time.

I am not going to get into a debate. I just dont like how it is phrased thats all.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Does anyone else not really care if anyone else agrees with their advocacy issues?


This, methinks, it the crux of the matter.

Most stuff, I don't care if people really agree with me or not. Some stuff, it sends me 'round the bend. I guess one's reaction depends where on the heirarchy of values something can be found for any given individual. I, for example, feel very strongly about fair-trade issues and it's probably #1 or #2 on my issues hit parade. I find it very difficult to get people to hear me on this stuff so I just walk my talk and let it go. There could just as easily be a thread titled "Anyone not care if coffee farmers can feed their families?" or "Happy Folun Gong Volunteers: Good factory workers?".

If those threads did exist, I'd be in your position now. Frustrated and flummoxed and not understanding why people don't see the truth that I see.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I'm sure they did. But anecdote is not evidence, and scientific evidence shows that breastmilk is the norm, and formula is inferior and carries health risks.

I agree, and my work is in sharing that with women. BUT I also understand there are some real valid reasons for ffing sometimes, and I won't pass judgement on those who don't.
Perhaps the phrase "I don't care" really doesn't fit...I do care- a lot!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question- if "caring" means "do you go lecture women buying formula at Wegmans or shoot nasty looks to women bottlefeeding in the park" then, no, I don't give a rat's ass. If caring means "do you advocate for breastfeeding by disseminating information, volunteering for breastfeeding organizations, boycotting organizations that undermine breastfeeding efforts, and educating yourself about breastfeeding" then yes, I care a lot.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

And now, my baby is asleep, my daughter is having a tea party, my son is doing schoolwork, and I need to mop my floor.

Does anybody really care if my house isn't all that clean because I spend too much time on MDC?


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Does anybody really care if my house isn't all that clean because I spend too much time on MDC?


i care. i care very much. Can't you hear my tsking?

and, stay tuned for my next thread, entitled "does anyone else not really care if some other woman gets an epidural?"


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
i care. i care very much. Can't you hear my tsking?

and, stay tuned for my next thread, entitled "does anyone else not really care if some other woman gets an epidural?"










You're just a post-and-run trouble maker, aren't you, MamaG?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I care about your dirty house AM.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
You're just a post-and-run trouble maker, aren't you, MamaG?


post and run??? i'm all over this thread!


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
and, stay tuned for my next thread, entitled "does anyone else not really care if some other woman gets an epidural?"










OMG. Can that go in a different forum??? please? like one that I don't moderate.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
I care about your dirty house AM.









It's just the kitchen, really. :LOL


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## member (Apr 15, 2002)

Poor Anna.









Does anyone care that I have no desire to go to class, or even get my f'in' degree at this point?! Yeah me neither.

Word to Chulupa btw.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
post and run??? i'm all over this thread!

Not since I started playing...


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## whatever (May 4, 2004)

So I breastfed ds until he was about a year old.

I wish I had known more about extended breast feeding, I would have carried on a lot longer.

I think that more women should feel able to breastfeed, but I wouldn't come down on an individual for FF. I would be very regretful for the baby though.

I think that people in our society, not just women, need to be educated as to how important it is. It's not just a 'woman's issue', but that is how it gets treated.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Not since I started playing...


i've been very busy, pw.

and selu-if you need inspiration to get your f'ing degree, check out gm's party thread from last night!


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I have to say I do care, in the sense that I wish all babies were breastfed, at least for a few weeks or months. Do I confront people in real life? Hell no. Do I choose my friends based on whether or not they breastfed? Nope.

However, there is something that REALLY drives me around the bend. It's when people aren't HONEST about it. I hate that they make up reasons for why ff is better. And then advocate that position to the people they know or on forums on the internet. In almost all cases ff is NOT best.

That's all I'm saying. Be honest about your failings, don't try to convince others to do the same so that you can delude yourself a little longer. If you have something to feel guilty about, feel the guilt, then forgive yourself and move on.

I did not try hard enough (for a multitude of reasons) to bf my first 3 kids for a full year. That's on me. I'm not going to say to some woman IRL or on the net "Oh they turned out just fine and really it was BETTER for them for x, y, z reason."

I should've done more to prevent my first son from being circed. I didn't know what I do now, but I did know that it was an issue. i did discuss, albeit briefly, with my first husband. it's on ME that I didn't do it. It doesn't make his circ right, i'm not going to say "It was for the best" or advocate that others do it to somehow mitigate my guilt.

I spanked my first three kids for several years. That was my failing. I went cold turkey a few years back and now can admit that at times, I was even abusive, especially to my younger daughter. I have to own that guilt, forgive myself and move on. Not go to forums and advocate spanking.

I hope with the above examples I've made my position clear. At least be HONEST with yourself and others about the decisions you make.


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## Fianna (Sep 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Maybe I am misunderstanding the question- if "caring" means "do you go lecture women buying formula at Wegmans or shoot nasty looks to women bottlefeeding in the park" then, no, I don't give a rat's ass. If caring means "do you advocate for breastfeeding by disseminating information, volunteering for breastfeeding organizations, boycotting organizations that undermine breastfeeding efforts, and educating yourself about breastfeeding" then yes, I care a lot.











Women making other women feel defensive and guilty for formula feeding in general sucks. And there is a thin line that can be tricky to balance between providing education/information and coming across as patronizing & judgmental. Some people are better at it than others.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
this whole issue popped in my head cause i read somewhere the story of this woman who had a baby in a sling, and was buying formula in a grocery store. and this other woman with a baby in a sling saw her, and instead of giving the "hey, we're both baby-wearing mamas, cool!" smile, gave her a really nasty-"you should know better, why the hell aren't you bf'ing your baby? lecture" -which sent the other woman home in tears. as it turned out, that baby was a miracle baby as mom had undergone a double masectomy due to breast cancer.







:

This is exactly why I don't give it any thought when I see women FFing. I have my opinions about FFing in general, but I don't really "care" if I see a woman FFing, because you can never make generalizations about an individual person, and you just don't know people's motives. Just like annettemarie said, I can advocate without prostelitizing(sp?).


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree with you AnnetteMarie. I care in that I advocate for bf and volunteer for a bf organization. I would never judge or attack anyone for ff. I think the problem word is care. Yes I care. No I don't judge or attack. KWIM.

Gethane, I know how you feel about people being honest. On another board, a woman was talking about how she could only breastfed for three weeks because she had big boobs. I really hate myths being spread.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

One more thing- when I said "miraculous" I didn't mean that little woodland creatures were dancing in my living room and strewing rose petal while I suckled a cherubic infant with a string orchestra swelling in the background.

I meant more like- holy crap, I can feed my baby with milk I made myself.

I think it is very empowering to women to breastfeed, and countercultural to not have to go out and buy anything.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I don't care what an individual mama feeds her baby.

I care about societal trends, attitudes, information and misinformation, and pressures.

Meaning, I care more about the *reasons* a mama feeds formula than the fact that she feeds formula. But when I see a mama snuggling her baby up with a bottle of formula, I am not distracted by the formula or the fact that she is not breastfeeding. I can enjoy watching her bond with and feed and enjoy her baby. But I am curious about her reasons for formula feeding.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
and, stay tuned for my next thread, entitled "does anyone else not really care if some other woman gets an epidural?"

























:LOL


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*

I think it is very empowering to women to breastfeed, and countercultural to not have to go out and buy anything.

Yep, and add cloth diapering into the mix and I sometimes don't go to walmart (don't shoot me, its almost the only choice I have) for 2 weeks or more. Anytime I go to walmart I ALWAYS buy more than I came for. So I save LOTS of money not having to go to the store to buy formula, dipes, wipes.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
One more thing- when I said "miraculous" I didn't mean that little woodland creatures were dancing in my living room and strewing rose petal while I suckled a cherubic infant with a string orchestra swelling in the background.

I meant more like- holy crap, I can feed my baby with milk I made myself.









: you just made me spit on my computer screen!!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*







: you just made me spit on my computer screen!!

Great! Then I met my goal for this thread!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

You are so awesome annette


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## shaywyn (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
One more thing- when I said "miraculous" I didn't mean that little woodland creatures were dancing in my living room and strewing rose petal while I suckled a cherubic infant with a string orchestra swelling in the background.

It's not like that at your house?? I'm so sorry







But we actually have a harp player, no orchestra
















: now that was funny, annette


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shaywyn*
It's not like that at your house?? I'm so sorry







But we actually have a harp player, no orchestra

















Budget cuts. A pastor's salary only goes so far. :LOL


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Hi. Mama you might have seen with a sling and a bottle here. I guess if I felt super-vigilant about the evils of formula, I wouldn't have been able to adopt my daughter (and I did adopt completely by choice, not necessity). She no longer uses formula - she's 18 months. She's not so into the sling anymore, either.

I bf'd my son and it was very hard for me (recurring mastitis the whole time). I encourage and applaud breastfeeding whenever I can, but I would never tsk an otherwise loving mama for using formula.

There really are so many other things out there that I reserve my supply of outrage for.

L.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:

Hi. Mama you might have seen with a sling and a bottle here. I guess if I felt super-vigilant about the evils of formula, I wouldn't have been able to adopt my daughter (and I did adopt completely by choice, not necessity).
Where on earth would you get the impression that anyone on this post was saying anything remotely like that?

Quote:

There really are so many other things out there that I reserve my supply of outrage for.
Which I believe, once again, shows that different people choose to direct their activism energies in different ways.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
With that said, I really believe it's a FOOD issue, not a LOVE issue.

yes!!!!!!!!!!


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## Christi (Nov 21, 2001)

[

It isn't so much the formula itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of many formula feeding moms that I have encountered. I've met plenty of women who just didn't want to do it! Plain and simple. Didn't want to try because they had already decided long before the baby came that it would just be to inconvenient for them. Yes, that bothers that crap out of me! Not that the kid is having formula, but that the mother is unwilling to make a sacrifice for her child's well being.
Other than that I've really worked on not being so judgmental. Yeah I would prefer all babies be breastfed but I do understand that doesn't always work out so I do try to walk a mile first so to speak&#8230;[/QUOTE]


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

First, Mama G- I KNEW there was a reason I loved you!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane*
...

However, there is something that REALLY drives me around the bend. It's when people aren't HONEST about it. I hate that they make up reasons for why ff is better. And then advocate that position to the people they know or on forums on the internet. In almost all cases ff is NOT best.

That's all I'm saying. Be honest about your failings, don't try to convince others to do the same so that you can delude yourself a little longer. If you have something to feel guilty about, feel the guilt, then forgive yourself and move on.

...
I hope with the above examples I've made my position clear. At least be HONEST with yourself and others about the decisions you make.

I formula feed. AND I FEEL GUILTY. I have supply. But I also have PPD and breast feeding was feeding the depression. I am trying to forgive myself, but it is hard.
And this is what gets me.... you say "in almost all cases ff is NOT best" BUT DO YOU KNOW MY CASE? How about the women down the street? Unless you know WHY, how can you make the comment "in almost all cases ff is NOT best"?

And yes, I have gotten the following comments
-When Goo was 3 weeks old and I had started working through the PPD issues and just made the switch "How can ANYONE feed their child that garbage" (one mom to another while I was picking up a can of formula)

- When Moo was 2 months old and in my Maya wrap:
stranger:"She's so cute! I see you have pumped for her"
Me:"no, this is formula"
stranger:"Oh- so you are trying to poison her"

-When Goo was 9 months old and drinking her own bottle because she didn't want me to hold her
stranger to friend: "Can you believe how _SOME_ mothers feed those chemicals and then don't even bother to hold them! How terrible"

I can go on and on. I still get upset about this and I am almost ready to move Moo off of formula. So, no, I don't care what you feed your baby. Don't give me crap for what I feed mine.

And for the record, I encourage every new mom I know to breastfeed.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Formula is not the same as junk food btw. We should focus on educating which really gives women the choice rather than being disgusted when they don't make the best choice. Formula isn't as good as breastmilk, but it isn't like it is the liquid equivbalent to a big mac . . .

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vermillion*

It isn't so much the formula itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of many formula feeding moms that I have encountered. I've met plenty of women who just didn't want to do it! Plain and simple. Didn't want to try because they had already decided long before the baby came that it would just be to inconvenient for them. Yes, that bothers that crap out of me! Not that the kid is having formula, but that the mother is unwilling to make a sacrifice for her child's well being.



Been thinking about this, and it may be off topic. But while I'm more than willing to imagine making huge sacrifices for my children, I'm less comfortable with the idea of my mom making sacrifices for me.

My mom never really did make sacrifices that I recall (though she was/is a loving, supportive mom). Rather we all fit into each others lives comfortably; but if, for example, my mom was repulsed by the idea of breastfeeding, she wouldn't have done it.

I imagine it would have been a burden on me emotionally to know that my mom made sacrifices for me. It would be like my life wasn't really my own.

Anyway, just thinking aloud here.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I don't care what an individual mama feeds her baby.

I care about societal trends, attitudes, information and misinformation, and pressures.


This is it IMO. I of course think breast is best. And I think the energy of bf advocates is best directed toward creating a society that is supportive of mamas and babes. More mamas would breastfeed if we didn't get told our breasts are sexual and that we need to be self conscious of our bodies, or if we had longer paid maternity leave, if NIP was relaxed and easy, if men were taught that their role in the early months is to nurture the mama/baby dyad, etc etc etc.

I don't get all bent out of shape when I hear that a mama didn't nurse because she feared her breasts would be saggy, I think what a shame it is that women's worth is so connected to having perky tits in this culture that this is something to *fear*.

What I really don't like about bf advocacy energy is when I see it directed at individual women and what crap mothers they are, how we must be better,







This dynamic of women spending our energy criticizing other women, as MamaG said, has been going on for far too long now and serves the patriarchy well.

You want more women to breastfeed? Change the culture. Don't trash mamas.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:

I imagine it would have been a burden on me emotionally to know that my mom made sacrifices for me. It would be like my life wasn't really my own.

Anyway, just thinking aloud here.

I can understand where you're coming from. I can only give you my personal experience with that.

My mom did make a huge sacrifice for me. She is bi-polar and was on some pretty nasty meds back before I was conceived. She got pregnant with me and went off her meds so she could have a healthy baby. Then for almost a year after my birth she continued to stay off her meds because she didn't want me exposed to them through her milk. Then she had to abruptly wean when she went into the hospital because she had a manic episode.

What my mom did for me isn't a burden on me. It actually makes me feel extremely loved and chrerished that she was so committed to my health that she sacrificed her own mental health. Of course that shouldn't be expected from everyone, but I am very grateful to my mom for giving me such a gift, yk?

I'd do the same for my child in a heartbeat.

Anyway... Back on topic


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

This whole thread is about finding the balance between having strong beliefs and caring about something but not being judgemental.

In the spirit of that, let's try to remember we are all here because we do care. I think it's a shame that so many babies don't get breastmilk. I'm not talking about cases where there were circumstances where they couldn't. I'm talking about every other baby out there who is healthy, mom is healthy, and they just didn't. I don't judge them, but I do feel sad that our society accepts formula as the norm (along with many other parenting things I don't agree with).

I myself fed my babies formula because of hard circumstances. It was not my choice. Formula is not junk food, but neither is it the healthiest, best thing a baby can drink. When I was in India and Abi got the runs from the local cows milk I switched her back to formula. I was hard-pressed to find it. Each store had 2-3 cans behind the pharmacy counter for the rare mom that couldn't bf, and I had to go from store to store as I used up their supply. Most of the moms in the city I was in did bf because that was the norm.

We need formula for some babies, but we don't need rows and rows of it in the supermarkets for the huge number of babies who are bottle fed today. Just like I don't think we need rows and rows of junk food in the supermarkets, where I have to go to specialty stores to get the good stuff.

Then there is the issue of bonding. While there may be moms like me here who "bottlenurse" I can assure you that is not the norm in the bottlefeeding world. How many times have I seen the newborn without hand control stretching his tiny neck to reach the rubber nipple that has been knocked out of the way of his mouth, while being pushed along in his travel system by a mom who is not in-tune with her baby's needs?

Bottlefeeding can and should involve holding and eye contact but often times it doesn't. It's impossible, as far as I know, to breast prop. You are forced to hold your baby while bfing. You have to actually sit down and rest and nurse. Our fast-paced world doesn't have time for that anymore.

I think that's why people care so much. Not because they are judging but because they are generally dismayed with the current trends of our society, and bottlefeeding/formula feeding is just one more symptom.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vermillion*
I can understand where you're coming from. I can only give you my personal experience with that.

My mom did make a huge sacrifice for me. She is bi-polar and was on some pretty nasty meds back before I was conceived. She got pregnant with me and went off her meds so she could have a healthy baby. Then for almost a year after my birth she continued to stay off her meds because she didn't want me exposed to them through her milk. Then she had to abruptly wean when she went into the hospital because she had a manic episode.

What my mom did for me isn't a burden on me. It actually makes me feel extremely loved and chrerished that she was so committed to my health that she sacrificed her own mental health. Of course that shouldn't be expected from everyone, but I am very grateful to my mom for giving me such a gift, yk?

I'd do the same for my child in a heartbeat.

Anyway... Back on topic









I am amazed your mom could do that for you. I could not do that for my children.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vermillion*
It actually makes me feel extremely loved and chrerished that she was so committed to my health that she sacrificed her own mental health. Of course that shouldn't be expected from everyone, but I am very grateful to my mom for giving me such a gift, yk?

I'd do the same for my child in a heartbeat.

I cant say i agree with sacrificing your mental health (or your moms, or the neighbor down the street) is really in anyones best interest, including the baby being fed breast milk.

Isn't a healthy mom best for baby? How is sacrficing mental health good?

I'm not picking on you, but it almost seems that even though you _say_ it shouldn't be expected from everyone....but really it should, and that more moms should do it.


----------



## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I cant say i agree with sacrificing your mental health (or your moms, or the neighbor down the street) is really in anyones best interest, including the baby being fed breast milk.

Isn't a healthy mom best for baby? How is sacrficing mental health good?

I'm not picking on you, but it almost seems that even though you _say_ it shouldn't be expected from everyone....but really it should, and that more moms should do it.










I feel the same way. I would feel really guilty if I knew that my mom sacrificed her mental health for me. I know my limits after having gone through it once with my DD and I will not go past that point again. If I have as severe PPD this time as I did last time, I will definately consider alternatives (like pumping and allowing a bottle instead of no bottle, etc).

The 10 months following my DD's birth are a complete blur to me and I had a ton of resentment and really struggled to bond with her. Breastfeeding was the worst thing most of the time and I got really close to abusive behavior because we struggled so much (this is the first time I've ever admitted that). Fortunately, my DH was a superman and stepped in, but I will not go through that again. It didn't bring out the tender feelings most of the time because I was constantly struggling with her latch and pain. It got to the point that I felt agressive and resentful towards her









Fortunately I know what to expect this time and I know my options and am a stronger person, able to feel good about doing whatever I need to. But I definately agree that as a mother, it wouldn't make me feel good to know that my mom put herself through that for me and might skew my views of what a mother's responsiblity to her children is. (not picking on you, Vermillion, either, just thinking "out loud" about this interesting point you've raised.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:

I cant say i agree with sacrificing your mental health (or your moms, or the neighbor down the street) is really in anyones best interest, including the baby being fed breast milk.
Mentally she actually did really well until she had that breakdown. She knew her limits and when she was unable to continue on without her meds she went and got the help she needed. I am not sure I would agree with what she did in most circumstances, but since I was on the receiving end of what she did I can't be anything but thankful that she did that for me. It was quite amazing and I am very grateful.

Quote:

Isn't a healthy mom best for baby? How is sacrficing mental health good?
Sacrificing your mental health probably isn't the best thing but my mom took that chance. I didn't ask her to do it (obviously I couldn't have) but she did what she felt was best for her and me. It was either continue to take drugs that would have caused me big problems (she didn't have a lot of options at that point for meds) abort me, or take her chances of her meds. Like I said above, when being off her meds *did* cause her to become mentally unstable she went back on them.

Quote:

I'm not picking on you, but it almost seems that even though you say it shouldn't be expected from everyone....but really it should, and that more moms should do it.

Well, I think you're reading way too deep into what I said. I would never expect anyone to do what my mother did. If you think me telling my mom's story might mean I am expecting others to do what she did, you are wrong. I was simply responding off topic to someone who mentioned moms sacrifice being an emotional burden, and how it isn't a burden for me.

I was just opening up about my experience in response to someone else's thoughts.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

And here I thought it was all over but the cuddling...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Formula is not the same as junk food btw. We should focus on educating which really gives women the choice rather than being disgusted when they don't make the best choice. Formula isn't as good as breastmilk, but it isn't like it is the liquid equivbalent to a big mac . . .

No, but it is basically a synthetic meal replacement.

Where are we getting that people are "disgusted"? What I have seen is that breastfeeding advocates are saddened and concerned that many women do not seem to be getting factual information by which to make an informed choice.


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Orchid*
Also for me it is a women's right to choose what to do with her body... like anything else. I do not believe that decisions should be made for her by removing formula from stores and making it available only by prescription. And as one of the PP mentioned there are many babies who would starve if this was not an available option. Feed the baby.

This is why I do not spend much/any time in the BF-ing forums. Not a popular opinion, but also not pro-formula. Pro choice.

Ah-ha! Now I know someone here understands what I mean by being pro-choice! For me when someone talks about baby rights (as if a mom did not care about her own baby) and mom rights in terms of BF/FF, it conjures up images of those people with the aborted fetus signs picketing Planned Parenthood. It really rubs me the wrong way, and I do exclusively breastfeed.

Where I'm coming from, the most important thing is to strive to create social conditions where a woman can become the best mom she can. For instance, having FMLA (thank you Bill Clinton) was critical to my BF success, because I could spend the time I needed with my sweet girl in the early weeks.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Annettemarie, I have seen that some women who cannot breastfeed feel horribly judged by other mamas, and isolated as a result. I think the judgment is harsher, more personal, than simply being "saddened and concerned that many women do not seem to be getting factual information by which to make an informed choice." If this is the case, bf advocates would be directing our energy toward making societal conditions better for breastfeeding, not toward sneering at what someone puts in their shopping cart.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

What mommytolittlelily said.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommytolittlelilly*
Ah-ha! Now I know someone here understands what I mean by being pro-choice! For me when someone talks about baby rights (as if a mom did not care about her own baby) and mom rights in terms of BF/FF, it conjures up images of those people with the aborted fetus signs picketing Planned Parenthood. It really rubs me the wrong way, and I do exclusively breastfeed.

Oh give me a break. That's just a wee bit inflamatory., don't you think?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

: It conjures up the same images for me. And I think it's about similar issues.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
And here I thought it was all over but the cuddling...

No, but it is basically a synthetic meal replacement.

Where are we getting that people are "disgusted"? What I have seen is that breastfeeding advocates are saddened and concerned that many women do not seem to be getting factual information by which to make an informed choice.

How my my post anti-cuddles.

I say basically what you say (better education so women can really have a choice) and the disgusted part wasn't a staw man, it was partly in reference to the OP oringinal post and partly in reference to posts in this thread comparing formula to secondhand smoke and junk food (both things that rate high on my disgust meter).


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Oh give me a break. That's just a wee bit inflamatory., don't you think?

No, I don't. It's how I feel. Period.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

I was just opening up about my experience in response to someone else's thoughts.
OK. I'll take your word for it







I think sometimes in these kinds of threads where there are feelings heavily veiled....i get my knickers in a knot.

Quote:

That's just a wee bit inflammatory., don't you think?
I don't. In fact, i agree with it, and have thought the same thing on many a thread like this one, she just put my thoughts into words.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*







: It conjures up the same images for me. And I think it's about similar issues.

Are breastfeeding advocates holding up disturbing explicit photos of babies at the breast?

Really, I am having a hard time buying that there is some sort of systemic oppression of mothers who formula feed.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

No, but there is systemic oppression of *mothers* in general. As there is oppression of women in general. And judging women for not breastfeeding our babies, rather than focussing on how to best support mamas and babes, is part of it.


----------



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
No, but there is systemic oppression of *mothers* in general. As there is oppression of women in general. And judging women for not breastfeeding our babies, rather than focussing on how to best support mamas and babes, is part of it.

But I think the problem occurs when people equate "educating" with "judging". Facts are neutral.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
OK. I'll take your word for it







I think sometimes in these kinds of threads where there are feelings heavily veiled....i get my knickers in a knot.

I can understand that.

I will tell you one thing though, tact is not one of my strongest points (working on that one!) so if I feel strongly about something I will just come right out and say it. If I had certain expectations of someone I'd have no problem just putting it out there. No veiling over here
















But I can see how you misunderstood the intentions of my post. It happens.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I hear you, and I don't have a problem with educating. I do have a problem with judging, which I think happens a lot. And I have a problem with pressuring mothers to make bf work, sometimes against enormous obstacles, while unsupportive husbands and OBs who make stupid obstetrical decisions and the non-existence of mat leave for many women is all given a free pass.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I hear you, and I don't have a problem with educating. I do have a problem with judging, which I think happens a lot. And I have a problem with pressuring mothers to make bf work, sometimes against enormous obstacles, while unsupportive husbands and OBs who make stupid obstetrical decisions and the non-existence of mat leave for many women is all given a free pass.

OK. I think we're on the same page here. :LOL


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
One more thing- when I said "miraculous" I didn't mean that little woodland creatures were dancing in my living room and strewing rose petal while I suckled a cherubic infant with a string orchestra swelling in the background.

I meant more like- holy crap, I can feed my baby with milk I made myself.

I think it is very empowering to women to breastfeed, and countercultural to not have to go out and buy anything.

Wow...I *completely* agree with this and think it rocks.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
First, Mama G- I KNEW there was a reason I loved you!









I formula feed. AND I FEEL GUILTY. I have supply. But I also have PPD and breast feeding was feeding the depression. I am trying to forgive myself, but it is hard.
And this is what gets me.... you say "in almost all cases ff is NOT best" BUT DO YOU KNOW MY CASE? How about the women down the street? Unless you know WHY, how can you make the comment "in almost all cases ff is NOT best"?

And yes, I have gotten the following comments
-When Goo was 3 weeks old and I had started working through the PPD issues and just made the switch "How can ANYONE feed their child that garbage" (one mom to another while I was picking up a can of formula)

- When Moo was 2 months old and in my Maya wrap:
stranger:"She's so cute! I see you have pumped for her"
Me:"no, this is formula"
stranger:"Oh- so you are trying to poison her"

-When Goo was 9 months old and drinking her own bottle because she didn't want me to hold her
stranger to friend: "Can you believe how _SOME_ mothers feed those chemicals and then don't even bother to hold them! How terrible"

I can go on and on. I still get upset about this and I am almost ready to move Moo off of formula. So, no, I don't care what you feed your baby. Don't give me crap for what I feed mine.

And for the record, I encourage every new mom I know to breastfeed.

Since you quoted me.

Read what I said. I said if you have something to feel guilty about, then feel guilty, then forgive yourself and move on. If you don't, then DON'T FEEL GUILTY. Did you choose to have PPD? No? Then I don't suppose you have something to feel guilty about.

And about knowing your case, that's why I said ALMOST all. You did notice that word right? Do you dispute that it is almost always better to bf? Even if it wasn't in YOUR case?

I am not the one who stopped you on the street and made comments to you. What is so terrible about me saying that if you are going to formula feed, be HONEST about it. You had reasons that said to you, "For my family, its better that I formula feed." Did I say you were wrong? No, I simply said be honest about it. Don't try to gloss it over with something else, and then tell people on internet forums that its "just as good" to formula feed.

If my comments do not apply to you, then they weren't aimed at you.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Maybe I am misunderstanding the question- if "caring" means "do you go lecture women buying formula at Wegmans or shoot nasty looks to women bottlefeeding in the park" then, no, I don't give a rat's ass. If caring means "do you advocate for breastfeeding by disseminating information, volunteering for breastfeeding organizations, boycotting organizations that undermine breastfeeding efforts, and educating yourself about breastfeeding" then yes, I care a lot.


I didn't have anything to respond to until now. This is exactly how I feel. I am truly passionate about educating people about breastfeeding. My dream is to become an IBCLC. I primarily spend time on mainstream boards spreading accurate information, providing good support, and trying to set moms up for success with breastfeeding. There is a frightening amount of misinformation out there!

I've nursed my first for almost 4 years, and pumped exclusively for 12 months with my second. I sure hope to be able to nurse this baby when it gets here.

I don't pass judgement on women that FF. I know first hand the many things that can go wrong with nursing. I don't blame anyone that doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to pump exclusively long term. I think that most breastfeeding failures happen because of a lack of information or support. Not all, but most.

I prefer to advocate towards the breastfeeding mother, rather than against the formula feeding mother (which is one reason I really don't like advocacy t-shirts).

I think Mama-G has a point here, though. There is a lot of anti-bottle sentiment around here, that really has nothing to do with supporting the breastfeeding mother. I have, personally, had nothing but support from this community about pumping and bottle-feeding.

But it does sting a bit, when I see threads declaring that everyone who cared enough could nurse, and that bottles should be banned, etc. I will post a reply about how not everybody could nurse, etc. And get a bunch of replies back, saying, how they didn't mean me. But my case is clear cut. Emily had a cleft palate. And, I was pumping for her. But what about those mamas that it isn't so clear on. Maybe the baby wouldn't latch right, or had reflux so bad that nursing was downright painful, etc. etc. There's not much support or sympathy for them here.

Bec


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
But I think the problem occurs when people equate "educating" with "judging". Facts are neutral.


when that 'education' includes phrases like mothers who don't bf are selfish and shallow, that begins to sound like 'judging'.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I would agree.

But look at the breastfeeding ad campaign- it didn't get watered down because of judgemental statements; it got watered down because of factual statements.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I would agree.

But look at the breastfeeding ad campaign- it didn't get watered down because of judgemental statements; it got watered down because of factual statements.

and that is a different matter entirly. i can easily get all fired up by what aap and formula companies did/have done. it's not like i don't want women to bf, i just don't want mothers to pick each other apart on that one standard alone.

savethat for the SUV drivers. :LOL


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I guess my point is that to some people, even simply stating the facts is taken as being judgemental.

I don't want to pick a mother apart on any standard (unless they are slapping their kid around at walmart or something!)


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

am, maybe you should start the "does anyone else not really care if other mothers drive hummers" thread...


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I don't want to pick a mother apart on any standard (unless they are slapping their kid around at walmart or something!)

what are you doing at walmart? :LOL

seriously though, that is my one real line in the sand as well-hitting children. i did/do everything by the ap checklist, and i am happy with those choices and feel they were best for my family. I am not invested, however, in trying to make every other mama follow the same path. Nor do i necessarily believe i am a better mother than someone who never bf or co-slept.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
am, maybe you should start the "does anyone else not really care if other mothers drive hummers" thread...


BRING IT!!!!!!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
what are you doing at walmart? :LOL

Hey, I have been Walmart free since December!


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

DP and I walked down to the Circle K last night, in the parking lot a woman was BFing her baby in the back seat of the car. I've done it myself many a time and it was sweet to see







. Until her man backed the car up and drove out of the parking lot, with the baby still in moms arms, not in a car seat! Made wish she was FFing so she could hold a bottle for the babe while they were in a car seat.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
DP and I walked down to the Circle K last night, in the parking lot a woman was BFing her baby in the back seat of the car. I've done it myself many a time and it was sweet to see







. Until her man backed the car up and drove out of the parking lot, with the baby still in moms arms, not in a car seat! Made wish she was FFing so she could hold a bottle for the babe while they were in a car seat.

Well, who are you to judge her for not using a car seat?

:LOL


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

judgement rules!!!


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
judgement rules!!!


:LOL


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Unfortunately, I only skimmed through this thread, cause I know I won't get through the whole thing while ds naps. Sorry if I am just repeating what many others have said.
I try so hard not to be judgemental. I know moms who FF, CIO, circumcise, etc, and I know they love their baby every bit as I love mine. But I do find myself feeling slightly frustrated when someone won't even consider it, thinks it's gross, or inconvenient. I do not have these feelings when I see mamas out and about using formula. Mostly I've just gotten frustrated with the situations I've known about firsthand.
I went through a really rough time at about 3 months, where I started feeling like formula feeding would make my life easier. I am so pro-bf, I realize now that the sleep deprivation must have been real bad cause I seriously considered it. I'm glad I didn't stop bf'ing though, and would like to encourage other women in any way I can.
I am increasingly annoyed with the fact that ff is considered the norm, but try real hard not to be judgemental on an individual level.
That's all, ds is up now!!


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane*
If my comments do not apply to you, then they weren't aimed at you.

I guess this is the thing. I see alot of "bash the formula feeders" followed with "but if it doesn't apply to you then ignore what I said"

It is hard to do that.

I didn't mean to offend you, and NO you didn't say any of those things I have heard IRL. I wanted to point out that people do actually say those things.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
I guess this is the thing. I see alot of "bash the formula feeders" followed with "but if it doesn't apply to you then ignore what I said"

It is hard to do that.

I didn't mean to offend you, and NO you didn't say any of those things I have heard IRL. I wanted to point out that people do actually say those things.


This is _exactly_ what I was trying to say in my post, but took too long saying it, I guess. :LOL

Bec


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

To answer the OP, "Does anyone else not really care what other women feed their babies?"

I do care. Desperately, for any number of reasons.

I will just jump on the sunnmama bandwagon though and ditto this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I don't care what an individual mama feeds her baby.

I care about societal trends, attitudes, information and misinformation, and pressures.

In general, I do not care about *individual* moms & *individual* babies. I would never go up and say something negative to a woman purchasing formula in a store. I do, though, care about the effects a *society* of women choosing to formula feed bring about.

And, while this generally does not make me any friends, I, as always, must respond to this comment:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlackOrchid*
There is a big difference between not putting a child in a carseat, smoking around them and not breastfeeding them. And advocating that way does not get you very far.

Yes, there are differences. Each and every child who is formula fed instead of being bfed (NOTE: so if the choices are formula/cow's milk, formula/root beer THIS DOES NOT APPLY) has long term consequences on their health and development. They may not be apparent. They child may have the genetics and/or parenting to seemingly overcome the repurcussions of the formula but the changes *have* taken place. For very few, bmilk is the difference between life and death. For many others, bmilk is the difference between one ear infection and three, 103 IQ versus 105 IQ and so on. For all babies, bmilk is easier on the digestive tract, etc... (not necesarily visable, but real none the less).

A carseat, meanwhile may or may not change and individual child's life. For some it will make the difference between life and death. For others it will be the difference between no injuries and a broken leg. For many it will have no impact whatsoever.

The problem is, with carseats and formula feeding YOU CANNOT KNOW WHICH CHILD IS WHICH. You cannot know in advance if your child is the one who will be hit with ear infection after ear infection because of the choice you made. You cannot know in advance if the one time you put you don't put your child in a carseat if you will arrive safe and sound at your destination OR your child will be killed because of that choice.

Statistically, between bfeeding and not using a carseat the issue is not, in reality the divergence in outcomes (though the negative outcomes w/carseat misuse are much more salient and obviously connected) but the ABILITY of the parents to provide the "extra" safety. It is easy for most parents to purchase, install & use a carseat. The vast, vast majority of puplic opinion supports car seat use (at least for infants







). Breastfeeding, meanwhile, while no less important is easier to "fail" at, has less societal support, etc...

I also wanted to reply to the following:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
It's impossible, as far as I know, to breast prop. You are forced to hold your baby while bfing. You have to actually sit down and rest and nurse. Our fast-paced world doesn't have time for that anymore.









I can breast prop (heck, MDC has a prase "NAK" that specifically refers to "breast propping". Before DD was 3 weeks old I was doing my Costco shopping while walking around nursing her. Sure, I hold them, but I realize that, especially as they age, my nurslings get less and less of my undivided attention while they nurse. More than most 3.5 year olds get while they drink a cup of milk, perhaps, but I just wanted to point out there are a wide range of experiences and possibilites. I would be willing to bet that most bfeeding mothers have more interaction while nursing ON AVERAGE than most bottle feeding mothers--- but I bet the ranges of behavior are both fairly wide with a large overlap.


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
I guess this is the thing. I see alot of "bash the formula feeders" followed with "but if it doesn't apply to you then ignore what I said"

It is hard to do that.

I didn't mean to offend you, and NO you didn't say any of those things I have heard IRL. I wanted to point out that people do actually say those things.

I ran out of time, but wanted to follow up my post earlier with the following comments.

I'm so sorry you wanted to bf and couldn't. I can only imagine how painful that must be. There was such a big gap between my first three kids and my last one that I was worried I wouldn't be able to bf. I worried about that more while I was pregnant, than anything else. And it almost came to pass. If I hadn't already bf 3 kids, there's literally no way I would've been successful. So I am really empathetic with your pain, though of course, I don't know what it feels like. I'm just sure it must be painful, and I am sorry for that.

However, what struck me about your first post is its comments JUST LIKE THAT that get some of us so riled up about FF moms. Sometimes they are so defensive that we can't say ANYTHING positive about bfing without being accused of attacking them. Saying breast is best isn't a slogan. It's the truth in most cases. I'm sorry that wasn't the case for you. But that doesn't change the statistics that it IS the best for most other people.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gethane*
I ran out of time, but wanted to follow up my post earlier with the following comments.

I'm so sorry you wanted to bf and couldn't. I can only imagine how painful that must be. There was such a big gap between my first three kids and my last one that I was worried I wouldn't be able to bf. I worried about that more while I was pregnant, than anything else. And it almost came to pass. If I hadn't already bf 3 kids, there's literally no way I would've been successful. So I am really empathetic with your pain, though of course, I don't know what it feels like. I'm just sure it must be painful, and I am sorry for that.

However, what struck me about your first post is its comments JUST LIKE THAT that get some of us so riled up about FF moms. Sometimes they are so defensive that we can't say ANYTHING positive about bfing without being accused of attacking them. Saying breast is best isn't a slogan. It's the truth in most cases. I'm sorry that wasn't the case for you. But that doesn't change the statistics that it IS the best for most other people.

Sorry, You are right in the sense that I am over sensitive on this whole subject ((sorry))
And I totally agree that it is the best for most people, but I guess what I should have said was that it is hard to know why they are formula feeding unless you ask.

Yes, I am glad Goo did get a little breast milk in..

And I just can't drop that guilty feeling. Depression is like that, you feel guilty for having it...
(Sometimes I wish I could just pop up a little video so people can hear my tone when I am typing!)


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*







I can breast prop (heck, MDC has a prase "NAK" that specifically refers to "breast propping". Before DD was 3 weeks old I was doing my Costco shopping while walking around nursing her. Sure, I hold them, but I realize that, especially as they age, my nurslings get less and less of my undivided attention while they nurse. More than most 3.5 year olds get while they drink a cup of milk, perhaps, but I just wanted to point out there are a wide range of experiences and possibilites. I would be willing to bet that most bfeeding mothers have more interaction while nursing ON AVERAGE than most bottle feeding mothers--- but I bet the ranges of behavior are both fairly wide with a large overlap.

Yes I see your point, and I've had friends who have nursed in the strangest positions. One mom I know routinely nurses her toddler while she's sitting in the computer chair, toddler standing next to her. So I guess she's not doing much interacting, more of a wet bar, but at least there's physical contact.

It would take either a real talent or realllly long breasts to nurse a baby while pushing it in a travel system. It's just funny to even imagine! :LOL


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I overcame many, many obstacles to bf.

Firstly, dd wouldn't eat for the first three days of her life. It was horribly stressful and everyone was telling me to try formula. I declined.

Then I bawled my eyes out through every nursing session for the first three months. Literally. I had every LLL leader and lactation consultant and nursing friend I knew over to my home and no one found anything "wrong". My nipples were torn open and puss was oozing out of bloody cracks. They looked like raw hamburger meat. And I nursed on.

I got pregnant when I was 19 and gave birth at 20. Thing is, I knew far more about childbirth and breastfeeding then anyone else I knew. I knew more than my childbirth instructor and one of the lactation consultants! I think that part of my determination to nurse against all odds is BECAUSE of what I knew about formula and the benefits of mother's milk.

And on top of those issues, I had bipolar that greatly exacerbated even more severe PPD, and the entire first year of my daughter's life is a blur. I honestly don't remember any of it due to stress and depression.

But I look at that and say, wow, there I was, a 20 year old "kid", and I DID IT. Through sheer determination and willpower. Then I listen to some mamas I know who are totally uneducated and don't give a rat's behind about learning more going on and on about how they'd never breastfeed, or they tried and didn't like it, etc. etc. etc., and it really makes me think: WHY? Why was I so different? Why are some people more determined, or more educated, or more well-read than others?

Is it the age of the soul? How you're raised? The people you're exposed to? For me, it's less of a "judgment" and more of a "wondering"... wondering how, in this day and age, with information literally at our fingertips, people still remain so in the dark.

**FTR, I'm discussing actual women in my life who just weren't that interested in breastfeeding, not those that really tried or wanted to try and for whatever reason it didn't work out.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Oh, USAmma, we sing your "signature" song in my homebased Waldorf preschool


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
Yes I see your point, and I've had friends who have nursed in the strangest positions. One mom I know routinely nurses her toddler while she's sitting in the computer chair, toddler standing next to her.

I do that too, she's usually on the run anyway. And after 42 months of nursing, I think they' didn't miss out on any cuddling!


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

However, what struck me about your first post is its comments JUST LIKE THAT that get some of us so riled up about FF moms. Sometimes they are so defensive that we can't say ANYTHING positive about bfing without being accused of attacking them. Saying breast is best isn't a slogan. It's the truth in most cases. I'm sorry that wasn't the case for you. But that doesn't change the statistics that it IS the best for most other people.
Yes!!! That's it (for me). I try very hard not to judge someone re: ff vs bf and I certainly wouldn't choose my friends over it or anything. I truly believe that many women choose not to bf because they don't have the information and support they need. Even women who come right out and say it's not convenient - I can't help but think that if it was the norm and if they really, truly knew the superior health benefits, they would choose to breastfeed.

(Well, maybe that's optimistic...I'm sure there would still be some people who do what is easier for themselves)

HOWEVER, because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, we can't say ANYTHING about breastfeeding. I mean seriously, if you talk about how science has proven that breastmilk is far superior than formula, and a mom that decided (not was forced into) to ff is sitting there, what is she supposed to think? How can she not be upset when (no matter how unintentional) someone is declaring that they did not choose the healthier route for their baby? Do you get what I'm saying? It's going to make a lot of mammas feel guilty.

Anywho, I say all this because some people declare that they aren't into judging, they just want to spead good info. I totally agree with that, just trying to show how even "educating" people can come across wrong and tick people off.

We care so much about being "tolerant" that we sometimes can't even really stand up for what we believe in because we might tick somebody off or make them feel guilty.


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

candiland:

wow.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sillymommaX2*
I really hate when people use the phrase "Superior to Formula" Makes me feel like I made a bad choice and I didnt.

But it IS superior to formula, it's a true statement.
As annettemarie said, facts are neutral, they'r enot judgemental. You do what you want with it.

Quote:

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question- if "caring" means "do you go lecture women buying formula at Wegmans or shoot nasty looks to women bottlefeeding in the park" then, no, I don't give a rat's ass. If caring means "do you advocate for breastfeeding by disseminating information, volunteering for breastfeeding organizations, boycotting organizations that undermine breastfeeding efforts, and educating yourself about breastfeeding" then yes, I care a lot.
Exactly.

Quote:

We care so much about being "tolerant" that we sometimes can't even really stand up for what we believe in because we might tick somebody off or make them feel guilty.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*
Oh, USAmma, we sing your "signature" song in my homebased Waldorf preschool



















I love that song! ! I have Peter Paul and Mary's "Campfire Songs" CD and listen to it a lot. It has some really great songs on it for kids and adults. Kisses Sweeter than Wine is another favorite off that CD.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I formula fed my daughter because I had no choice (adopted, couldn't induce lactation). I have no problem with people saying that breastmilk is the superior food. I totally agree.

I have a problem with someone judging a mom for buying formula when they have no idea why they are buying it. I am still having flashbacks to the post where the person talked about the woman who had the double mastectomy and was judged for buying formula. I would never forgive myself for making that mama feel like she was not worthy of being a mama, if I had said something like that.

And I have heard arguments that adoption was "unnatural" because an adoptive mama may not be able to breastfeed, or that you are doing a baby a disservice if you adopt and can't breastfeed. I know no one on this thread made that kind of statement.

I almost ruined my physical and mental health while breastfeeding my son. I am glad I breastfed him, and everything turned out okay in the end, but what if it hadn't? I couldn't judge another mom who had recurring mastitis and ppd who made a different choice.

I actively advocate for breastfeeding. My family of origin is pretty mainstream, and I praise my sister up and down for breastfeeding (and pumping when she works). She had a baby today







and he nursed right away and she was so psyched about it. I think my cheerleading has played some small role, at least.

L.


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## shaywyn (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
Yes I see your point, and I've had friends who have nursed in the strangest positions. One mom I know routinely nurses her toddler while she's sitting in the computer chair, toddler standing next to her. So I guess she's not doing much interacting, more of a wet bar, but at least there's physical contact.


Oh, I so take offense at this statement!! NOT! However, my toddler quite often comes up for a nip while I am at the puter! Sometimes a whole meal. And, yes, my boobs are very long :LOL She tells me exactly which breast is most delectable at the moment, we have plenty of eye contact, and I consider it part of her right to easy access, LOL!! :LOL We have no schedule, she nurses whenever she wants. Lately, she seems to actually prefer that she stands and nurses during her busy daytime. Relaxed nursing is for sleepy time







My older dd also liked to nurse standing up, during the day.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
I am amazed your mom could do that for you. I could not do that for my children.










Making the obviously difficult choice for you to ff your babes because you knew it was the best way for them to have a better Mom is an excellent choice!!!!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
savethat for the SUV drivers. :LOL


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess*
Yes!!! That's it (for me). I try very hard not to judge someone re: ff vs bf and I certainly wouldn't choose my friends over it or anything. I truly believe that many women choose not to bf because they don't have the information and support they need. Even women who come right out and say it's not convenient - I can't help but think that if it was the norm and if they really, truly knew the superior health benefits, they would choose to breastfeed.

(Well, maybe that's optimistic...I'm sure there would still be some people who do what is easier for themselves)

HOWEVER, because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, we can't say ANYTHING about breastfeeding. I mean seriously, if you talk about how science has proven that breastmilk is far superior than formula, and a mom that decided (not was forced into) to ff is sitting there, what is she supposed to think? How can she not be upset when (no matter how unintentional) someone is declaring that they did not choose the healthier route for their baby? Do you get what I'm saying? It's going to make a lot of mammas feel guilty.

Anywho, I say all this because some people declare that they aren't into judging, they just want to spead good info. I totally agree with that, just trying to show how even "educating" people can come across wrong and tick people off.

We care so much about being "tolerant" that we sometimes can't even really stand up for what we believe in because we might tick somebody off or make them feel guilty.

Ok- Do you get upset when you see a person buying processed foods instead of whole foods for their kids? I mean, whole foods are better for kids. It is FAR superior to processed foods, but do you react with the same passion as breast feeding?

Just a question....


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Ok- Do you get upset when you see a person buying processed foods instead of whole foods for their kids? I mean, whole foods are better for kids. It is FAR superior to processed foods, but do you react with the same passion as breast feeding?

Just a question....

Not upset, but I do sort of think, Oh, those poor kids.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Just curious, do you think you should respond with the same passion as breast feeding?
I mean, I try to avoid processed foods and I do get upset when I see something along the lines of a young child getting soda pop instead of water or milk...

I think there is a parallel here


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Just curious, do you think you should respond with the same passion as breast feeding?
I mean, I try to avoid processed foods and I do get upset when I see something along the lines of a young child getting soda pop instead of water or milk...

I think there is a parallel here

I think there is somewhat a parallel, although the arguement might be made that the first year is so important to development that it makes it a different issue. Additionally, many sources stress the importance of a healthy diet. Breastfeeding doesn't get the same press. And, I personally do direct my energies in that direction, as well. I lobby to get junk foods out of the school, commercial characters out of the "healthy" food section, and I give healthy foods to families in need.

But really, we all push our activism energies in different directions, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I cannot respond to everything with the same passion I reserve for breastfeeding activism.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

I have a friend who's kids eat fast food quite a bit and I do feel bad for them. I don't get "upset". I don't think that she's a bad mom. Just like I don't think formula feeders are bad moms. I think many times they are uninformed/misinformed and not supported.

I am glad formula is there for those who need it and I know people who needed it. They certainly aren't bad moms! They are feeding their babies the best way they possibly can.

I'm just saying that I do think it's a shame when the rest of us are expected to tread lightly on this subject for fear of upsetting someone who is hyper-sensitive and carrying mass amounts of (unneeded) guilt. If you did what was best for your baby at the time then why feel guilty about it? Live and learn and do better next time.

For example, I had my son circed. (NOT trying to start a debate about THAT here, just my experience) and now that I have researched it and know more about it, I wish I had never done it. I did struggle with guilt at first and if I have another son I will not circ him, BUT I'm not losing any sleep over what I did. I did the best I could with the info I had at the time. Period. If anyone tries to make me feel bad I just remind myself of that. I'm not going to get all sensitive about it. I would rather spend my time educating other parents about it and sharing my experience, certainly not trying to spread myths and misinformation in order to make myself feel better.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I don't particularly care, either.

I am a bf advocate, and I do think that women often don't receive adequate support and education about bf and that needs to change.

My kids, abandoned at birth adopted past infancy, were ff. I do sometimes get a little annoyed at the "formula-is-poison" comments. My kids and hundreds of thousands of others like them would be dead without formula.

As Leatherette said:

Quote:

I have a problem with someone judging a mom for buying formula when they have no idea why they are buying it. I am still having flashbacks to the post where the person talked about the woman who had the double mastectomy and was judged for buying formula. I would never forgive myself for making that mama feel like she was not worthy of being a mama, if I had said something like that.

And I have heard arguments that adoption was "unnatural" because an adoptive mama may not be able to breastfeed, or that you are doing a baby a disservice if you adopt and can't breastfeed. I know no one on this thread made that kind of statement.
Yup. I guess it would be much better to let the children die.


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## celrae (May 3, 2005)

I guess I feel like bf/ff debates are just one more way for mamas to be divided, when together we could accomplish so much.

I 100% agree with you. About 2 years ago I could have written several angry paragraphs on this subject but, now I realize most mama's don't even know they are judging. They are so wrapped up in feeling good about their decisions that they don't understand that other make opposite decisions that are well thought out and have merit. As time goes on the same judging woman have had time to think, gone though life altering experiences, or have a friend that help them look at the wold differently. So now when I encounter judgment with regards to this subject and I laugh and try to inform to the best of my abilities.


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## greymama (May 30, 2003)

I bf'd my first son and am currently bf'ing my 7-month-old, but my supply has been low with him (I've tried pumping more, Mother's Milk Plus, etc. to increase my supply... but it's just not flowing they way I'd like.) So I've had to supplement with formula. And I admit, whenever I go to buy the stuff I am so EMBARRASSED. I feel like the cashier is judging me as a bad mom for feeding formula, so I usually by milk storage bags at the same time so it's clear that I do both. How freakin' silly is that? And when friends come over, I hide the containers of formula, they know I'm super pro-breastfeeding and would I think I would die if they saw formula sitting around my home. I think I need therapy.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess*

I'm just saying that I do think it's a shame when the rest of us are expected to tread lightly on this subject for fear of upsetting someone who is hyper-sensitive and carrying mass amounts of (unneeded) guilt. If you did what was best for your baby at the time then why feel guilty about it? Live and learn and do better next time.


Why do I feel guilty? Because, as everyone points out, I am not feeding my children the best food possible....Because my hormones caused me to fail at something wonderful.

Live and learn and do better next time? Um, How could I do better?

I don't expect people to tread lightly, but I do expect people to use compassion.
We have a saying in our house "Treat your customers like they are rocket scientists, because every once in a while, they will be" Well, consider it this way "Treat every ff mom as someone who did NOT choose the formula feed, because every once in a while, they will not have had that choice." Educate, YES, but treat poorly, no...


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## gethane (Dec 30, 2003)

I think everyone would be a bit better off to be honest with themselves, know they made the best decisions for their family, and then STOP CARING what everyone else thinks.

I'm a white woman, raised in Nebraska, and at the age of not quite 21 I married a black man. We proceeded to have 3 children very quickly, who I bf'd and co-slept with, against all advice of parental units. Then, after 9 years, I kicked him out and divorced him.

I would have been wallowing in a psychiatric ward about 10 years ago if I hadn't just stopped caring what other people think.

When I was a teaching parent in a group home back in my mid 20's they taught us in our training class to "fake it til you make it." This was in regards to caring about our clients, who sometimes came and went hardly before we got to know them. We were supposed to "fake" caring (with words, looks, etc) until we "made it" (actually did start to care). Might sound callous, but many of the kids came from situations where their parents didn't even make an effort, or pretend to care about their needs.

When it comes to confidence in your decisions, do the same thing. FAKE the confidence until you BELIEVE IN IT!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Kinda OT:

But fake it until you make it really works.

I was kinda nervous about NIP, but determined to do it right from the beginning, so I just faked confidence, and then I was conifdent NIP.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Why do I feel guilty? Because, as everyone points out, I am not feeding my children the best food possible....Because my hormones caused me to fail at something wonderful.

Live and learn and do better next time? Um, How could I do better?

I don't expect people to tread lightly, but I do expect people to use compassion.
We have a saying in our house "Treat your customers like they are rocket scientists, because every once in a while, they will be" Well, consider it this way "Treat every ff mom as someone who did NOT choose the formula feed, because every once in a while, they will not have had that choice." Educate, YES, but treat poorly, no...
But see, I'm NOT talking about mammas who don't have a choice. I said that in my first post. And unless I missed something, I think most of the women on this thread agree with that.

And I never said that anyone should be treated poorly or that we shouldn't use compassion. I honestly don't blink an eye when I'm in the supermarket and see someone buying formula simply because I DON'T know what their situation is. I am frustrated (as I think many of these mama's are) at women who come right out and say that they don't want to bf or they "couldn't" (I say "couldn't" for those who can, but don't want to and make excuses).

It's just that I'm not going to say that f is the same as breast milk and it's certainly not superior. If that makes me "judgemental", than I guess I am although I don't see it that way.

I've seen several threads (in the breastfeeding forums) where mama's talk about people the KNOW who don't breastfeed because they simply don't want to and it never fails that at least one ffer will get on there and talk about how they truly couldn't bf and how we shouldn't be so judgemental. Then all the other women have to post and say, "No, we don't mean YOU, blah, blah, blah."

Again, if you have to ff or if you did so out of a lack of info, that accept it and move on. Don't keep projecting your guilt onto those of us who are simply trying to increase awareness and support regarding bf.

From what you have posted here it certainly sounds like you could not breastfeed. Then really your only option is to ff. I don't see why you should feel guilty about that. I'm truly sorry if people have made you feel guilty or bad for ff. Shame on them. And you should remember that if you truly can't bf then you ARE feeding your child the best food possible. However, if you are wallowing in that guilt and projecting it on others than I'm sorry for you.

You know, bfing moms don't usually get made to feel guilty, instead, society tries to make us feel weird or dirty or uneducated. We have a choice to believe that about ourselves or to remind ourselves that we are doing the best for our children and move on. That's all any parent can do.

Please don't think I'm attacking you (any of you ffing moms). I'm totally not. My last post certainly was not directed at you.

ETA: clarification


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Why do we care so much more about a baby getting formula because the mother didn't want to breastfeed than about a 2 year old getting french fries because the mother didn't want to cook dinner.

Why do we feel so passionate about the formula fed three month old and not so passionate about the french fry fed 2 year old?

I can't help but think it has something to do with us living in a culture that is passionate about controlling/regulating women's bodies.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Why do we care so much more about a baby getting formula because the mother didn't want to breastfeed than about a 2 year old getting french fries because the mother didn't want to cook dinner.

Why do we feel so passionate about the formula fed three month old and not so passionate about the french fry fed 2 year old?

I can't help but think it has something to do with us living in a culture that is passionate about controlling/regulating women's bodies.

Who is this "we" of which you speak?


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Mamawanabe, I think you're on to something there!


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Why do we care so much more about a baby getting formula because the mother didn't want to breastfeed than about a 2 year old getting french fries because the mother didn't want to cook dinner.

Why do we feel so passionate about the formula fed three month old and not so passionate about the french fry fed 2 year old?

I feel worse when I see kids eating French fries (or other crap) because for babies who are not BF formula *is* necessary to thrive&#8230; Fast food junk is never necessary for any reason that I can think of.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I think "we" are making an awful lot of assumptions when "we" assume that those of us who are interested in advocating breastfeeding are not also advocating good nutrition in general.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Why do we care so much more about a baby getting formula because the mother didn't want to breastfeed than about a 2 year old getting french fries because the mother didn't want to cook dinner.

Because unless you're living in a hole, you know that fries are not optimal. Despite the "breast is best" formula company disclaimer, not everyone knows/agrees that formula is not optimal.

Kaly


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I think "we" are making an awful lot of assumptions when "we" assume that those of us who are interested in advocating breastfeeding are not also advocating good nutrition in general.

General good nutrition discussions never get as heated/acrimonious/personal. There is a level of passion in breast/ff discussions missing in discussions about kids' menus at restaurants etc. I'm just asking why.


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

I'm wondering how different OB/GYN/mainstream hospitals vary are on this subject, because my mainstream OB and hospital always talked about the importance of breastfeeding. I never knew anything about this website, or had anyone in my family talking to me about BF ('cause no one ever did it).

So unless other mainstream facilities out there don't talk about it when you're in there for your monthly check-ups, I really don't see how anyone would be under the impression formula is just as good as breastmilk. Also I guess for those without health ins and not going in for checkups for any other reason.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Because unless you're living in a hole, you know that fries are not optimal. Despite the "breast is best" formula company disclaimer, not everyone knows/agrees that formula is not optimal.
Yup. I agree. Also, because having french fries every now and then is not the same as having formula for every single meal for 6 months or more.

Quote:

I think "we" are making an awful lot of assumptions when "we" assume that those of us who are interested in advocating breastfeeding are not also advocating good nutrition in general.
I agree! I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that it's okay to bf and then throw nutrition out the window after that or that good nutrition only applies to babies. We just haven't been discussing that specifically.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Well, in that case, I will just quote repeat my earlier post:

Quote:

I think there is somewhat a parallel, although the arguement might be made that the first year is so important to development that it makes it a different issue. Additionally, many sources stress the importance of a healthy diet. Breastfeeding doesn't get the same press. And, I personally do direct my energies in that direction, as well. I lobby to get junk foods out of the school, commercial characters out of the "healthy" food section, and I give healthy foods to families in need.

But really, we all push our activism energies in different directions, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I cannot respond to everything with the same passion I reserve for breastfeeding activism.
There are people who are passionate about children's nutrition.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess*
Yup. I agree. Also, because having french fries every now and then is not the same as having formula for every single meal for 6 months or more.

I agree! I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that it's okay to bf and then throw nutrition out the window after that or that good nutrition only applies to babies. We just haven't been discussing that specifically.

of course not. But threads about junk food don't have a tendency to get "ugly." Threads about forumla do.

And many kids do eat junk food (often processed, packaged "kid" food sold at grocery stores) as their main source of nutrition for much longer than 6 months.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

I think AM summed it up nicely:

Quote:

But really, we all push our activism energies in different directions, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I cannot respond to everything with the same passion I reserve for breastfeeding activism.
I haven't participated in other nutrition discussions so I will have to take your word on it (re: it becoming more heated). I do care about nutrition over all.

I think one reason why I personally invest more in breastfeeding awareness and education is because of the impact it has on our society. I don't think it's fair that bfing mothers are looked down on or seen as abnormal. I don't really think that women who give their kids whole foods are seen as weirdo's (well, maybe to some people :LOL ) so the nutrition-for-older-kids debate doesn't have that twist to it ( or at least not as much).

Also, I wonder if different people would view the term 'ugly' differently. I've said it in my previous posts and I'll say it again: many times it seems that ffing moms get upset because of the guilt or insecurities they are harboring *not* because anyone is judging them or looking down on them.

People saying that they will always see bfing as the top choice (where possible) and who won't back down and who continue to educate and provide awareness are not 'getting ugly'. Ykwim?

Saying things like, " If you don't bf you don't love your baby", etc, now that's ugly.

ETA: Oh, I just thought of this: I think that maybe one reason people don't get all up in arms about nutrition for older kids is that they don't know about good nutrition. I mean, obviously everyone knows that stuff like fast food is bad for you, but as far as processed and refined foods, I don't think it has the same level as awareness. I'm constantly amazed when I tell my family we avoid trans fats and they have not a clue what I'm refering to.







I can't help but wonder if there would be more debate/passion about this if people truly understood what good nutrition is. I can't help but think that there would be plenty of people who ,say, don't like to cook, or don't have much time to cook, getting all upset about their food choices. Just some thoughts. Does that make sense or am I just digging myself in deeper? :LOL


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Re: why I care so much about breastfeeding - yes, formula (when not contaminated through the manufacturing process or with dirty water) provides a decent enough source of nutrition for babies when there's nothing else to eat, so arguably it saves lives.

But formula also kills. At least a million babies die every year - including upwards of 700 a year in this country - because they weren't breastfed. Most of this mortality is in developing countries, where parents are poor and can't afford enough formula and don't have access to clean water. The babies who die in this country because they weren't breastfed die of leukemia and asthma and other diseases that they wouldn't have gotten if they'd been breastfed.

Breastmilk is far more than just food, so comparing breastmilk to fruits and veggies and formula to french fries falls short of the mark. Breastmilk is also necessary for normal immunological and neurological development. It is about much more than a feeding "choice."

Formula feeding is a risk. Sometimes it's necessary to take that risk because of whatever life circumstances have presented themselves - adoption, PPD, and mastectomy have all been mentioned on this thread.

As a PP said (sing it, annettemarie and Tiredx2!) it's not about criticizing an individual mother, especially not in the grocery store







but about getting the word out that FFing has serious risks, and should be reserved only for cases of absolute necessity. (Just like there are kids who for medical reasons can't ride in regular car seats - there are alternative car seats available that are not as safe, but that's a risk that has to be taken because of individual circumstances).


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess*
I
ETA: Oh, I just thought of this: I think that maybe one reason people don't get all up in arms about nutrition for older kids is that they don't know about good nutrition. I mean, obviously everyone knows that stuff like fast food is bad for you, but as far as processed and refined foods, I don't think it has the same level as awareness. I'm constantly amazed when I tell my family we avoid trans fats and they have not a clue what I'm refering to.







I can't help but wonder if there would be more debate/passion about this if people truly understood what good nutrition is. I can't help but think that there would be plenty of people who ,say, don't like to cook, or don't have much time to cook, getting all upset about their food choices. Just some thoughts. Does that make sense or am I just digging myself in deeper? :LOL

First, I am not offended by you other post. I am just not getting my point across, so I'll let it go.

Second, I think people do misunderstand nutrition. How many people get a salad and then dump dressing all over it? Or will use white rice instead of brown not realizing there are nutritional differences?


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
But formula also kills. At least a million babies die every year - including upwards of 700 a year in this country - because they weren't breastfed. Most of this mortality is in developing countries, where parents are poor and can't afford enough formula and don't have access to clean water. The babies who die in this country because they weren't breastfed die of leukemia and asthma and other diseases that they wouldn't have gotten if they'd been breastfed.

Could I have the references to the peer reviewed scientific studies that show that ff CAUSES leukemia and asthma?
Thanks!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Could I have the references to the peer reviewed scientific studies that show that ff CAUSES leukemia and asthma?
Thanks!


OH GOD NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the "cause" arguement again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## nycapmom (Jan 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Re: why I care so much about breastfeeding - yes, formula (when not contaminated through the manufacturing process or with dirty water) provides a decent enough source of nutrition for babies when there's nothing else to eat, so arguably it saves lives.

But formula also kills. At least a million babies die every year - including upwards of 700 a year in this country - because they weren't breastfed. Most of this mortality is in developing countries, where parents are poor and can't afford enough formula and don't have access to clean water. The babies who die in this country because they weren't breastfed die of leukemia and asthma and other diseases that they wouldn't have gotten if they'd been breastfed.

Breastmilk is far more than just food, so comparing breastmilk to fruits and veggies and formula to french fries falls short of the mark. Breastmilk is also necessary for normal immunological and neurological development. It is about much more than a feeding "choice."

Formula feeding is a risk. Sometimes it's necessary to take that risk because of whatever life circumstances have presented themselves - adoption, PPD, and mastectomy have all been mentioned on this thread.

As a PP said (sing it, annettemarie and Tiredx2!) it's not about criticizing an individual mother, especially not in the grocery store







but about getting the word out that FFing has serious risks, and should be reserved only for cases of absolute necessity. (Just like there are kids who for medical reasons can't ride in regular car seats - there are alternative car seats available that are not as safe, but that's a risk that has to be taken because of individual circumstances).


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## bartleby (Oct 28, 2003)

EFmom said:


> I don't particularly care, either.
> 
> I am a bf advocate, and I do think that women often don't receive adequate support and education about bf and that needs to change.
> 
> ...


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Why throw the organic in? Is it a judgment against those who use non organic formula?


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
OH GOD NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the "cause" arguement again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um, Ok, Then can I have a peer reviewed research article that explains the link between formula feeding and leukemia and asthma....

Is that better wording? The original quote I am questioning is:

Quote:

The babies who die in this country because they weren't breastfed die of leukemia and asthma and other diseases that they wouldn't have gotten if they'd been breastfed.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Why throw the organic in? Is it a judgment against those who use non organic formula?









girl:


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Um, Ok, Then can I have a peer reviewed research article that explains the link between formula feeding and leukemia and asthma....

Nevermind. A quick web search found 3 references to ONE article that was to be listed on a non-existent website, however a search of pubmed found at least 4 peer reviewed articles that showed NO or borderline statistical evidence of breastfeeding lowers the risk of childhood cancers and 1 peer reviewed article that found a negative link (ie, breastfeeding reduces the risks).

Another paper on pubmed reported that the PATERNAL age seems to have an effect on childhood cancers... Interesting.

and BTW- Lower risk does not mean that children who are breastfed will not get the cancers, it means they are at less risk.... Learn your data before you repeat it


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## bartleby (Oct 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Why throw the organic in? Is it a judgment against those who use non organic formula?

No. It's what I buy. Sorry, there's nothing to be read into my mentioning organic over non-organic.

And what does the little baby emoticon thing mean, annettemarie? I don't get it. Seriously. A happy, well-fed baby whose mother is fulfilling his/her nutritional needs with breastmilk or formula?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Okay, just wondering because I didn't see why you would mention it.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bartleby*
And what does the little baby emoticon thing mean, annettemarie? I don't get it. Seriously. A happy, well-fed baby whose mother is fulfilling his/her nutritional needs with breastmilk or formula?









Sometimes a smilie is just a smilie.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
Um, Ok, Then can I have a peer reviewed research article that explains the link between formula feeding and leukemia and asthma....


Just to clarify--- I totally understand what you meant. I have just seen a lot of conversations about the "causation" of different things just devolve into a pissing contest over statistics.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Foobar*
1 peer reviewed article that found a negative link (ie, breastfeeding reduces the risks).


Breastfeeding does not lower the risk of anything. Breastfeeding is biologically normal. So, formula feeding increases the risk. That is like saying not smoking reduces the risk of cancer.

I don't know many articles online, but in media presented by the Canadian Cancer Society and the Asthma Society of Canada, the link has been mentioned. I think I've also read about it on the LLL web site.

Here is one article:
http://www.babyreference.com/InfantDeaths.htm

Of course a higher risk does not mean a positive causal relationship. Yes, some bf babies get asthma and cancer and not all ff babies get asthma and cancer. Just like not everyone who smokes will get lung cancer and not everyone who gets lung cancer smokes. Even if the risk is purely correlative and not causative, the link is still there.


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## bartleby (Oct 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Sometimes a smilie is just a smilie.









Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Sometimes a smilie is just a smilie.

















Not when it's the fat baby


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## bartleby (Oct 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
Okay, just wondering because I didn't see why you would mention it.

Just as a descriptor, really. I could well have said, "...Similac ready-to-feed, a chocolate doughnut, and a copy of Mothering magazine in my shopping cart." (Which, come to think of it, would possibly have been the case during my daughter's first few months with us! Especially the chocolate doughnut part. Although then I would feel compelled to say it was a vegan doughnut, because that's what my local market sells. But I wouldn't want to be making a judgment toward anyone who eats non-vegan doughnuts, of course.







)


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It's okay. It just reminded me of when people saying a black woman or an asian man when telling a story when the race is completely irrelevant to the story at hand and you would never hear someone say a white man or white woman. KWIM?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Ah. Adjectives.


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## bartleby (Oct 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa*
It's okay. It just reminded me of when people saying a black woman or an asian man when telling a story when the race is completely irrelevant to the story at hand and you would never hear someone say a white man or white woman. KWIM?

Ack! Lordy, no. I didn't mean for it to be a glaring detail, such as you describe. I hate when people tell stories like that too, with irrelevant racial details. Makes me cringe. (Or other physical characteristics that are irrelevant, e.g., body size, etc.)


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

This thread has been locked because it has gone way off topic from the original post. If you wish to debate formula feeding vs. breastfeeding in general terms, the health risks of formula feeding as well as the benefits of breastfeeding, current research about those subjects, organic vs. non-organic, children's nutrition, racial issues, or any other topics that have come out of this thread, please feel free to start spin-off threads in the appropriate forum(s).

For those of you who want to further express your strong beliefs in breastfeeding, we have some wonderful breastfeeding forums where you will get lots of support and affirmation, including Breastfeeding Support and Advocacy.

Also, for those who have mentioned that they are mouring the loss of breastfeeding, there is a support group in Finding Your Tribe forum that might better suit your needs if you want to share your story. It is a support only thread, not open for debate.

Thank you.


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