# Is "good job" EVER a good thing to say?



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I was having this conversation with my mom, about praise. And in general, she tries hard to not use "good job" with ds. She'll say "you did it!" or something specific like that instead.
But she was telling me that when my stepdad was 10, he made an electronic circuit thingy all by himself, and he had worked hard on it (it turned lights on). He went to show his mom, and he got something like "that's nice." with the attitude of "yes, of course you can do something like that. You should".
Now, he STILL remembers that, and it still bothers him now that he's in his 40's. All he wanted was for his mom to say "good job". (now, I have to say, that I do think she was not a very emotionally involved mom- she expected a lot, and didn't really make postive comments about much- because she expected them to do good things. kwim? I get the feeling that she was a bit "cold", and a bit self-centered)
So that got me thinking, and it seems to me that if a child comes to you, all excited about something they made or did, it does seem that "good job..." followed by something specific, and showing interest, would be appropriate. Maybe not specifically "good job" but something involving some sort of value judgement- "wow! that's great!" something
I'm not "for" manipulative praise at all and I don't like behaviorism used on kids. I try to just describe what I see, and let dc go with how HE feels about whatever is happening. I'm not talking about saying "good job" on a regular basis. But what about when he comes to me and WANTS to hear me say that what he did was good?

I like to hear "the house looks great!" after I spent a lot of time cleaning. kwim?

So talk to me about this type of praise, if you would


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I think that "good job" is ok to say to a child for a job well done. Why not?
I don't say it for every little thing, and when I say it, I say it with real enthusiasm, and I mean it. I'm not just mumbling it for the sake of saying something. When you say "that's great" or "you did it", it's not much different than "good job". Just a wording choice. You are still giving praise right?
I have found tons of great advice on this board, but sometimes I tend to overthink what I say to my ds, which I don't like. I see nothing wrong with "good job" used in moderation.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

In all honesty... I personally don't believe that it's about saying "good job" when it is truly a job well done... it's about knowing how to say something positive when it's not. I know a LOT of people will disagree with me because in life you get one disappointment after another from others who are in a position to "approve" or "disapprove" of your work. It's important to teach your child how to maintain self-esteem in spite of criticism. I use "well done" or "good job" all the time but also explain why I think so. I don't dismiss her with a "good job" so I can then ignore her.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

I think there is a HUGE difference between praising for manipulative reasons and using words of recognition when a child seeks them or when you feel them. My ds sometimes seeks recognition and my dd often does. I think it is a valid need of hers to feel recognized and I feel very loved that I am so important to her that she wants to share her accomplishments and artwork with me. I try to really be present in that moment and feel their excitement so I can comment on whatever positively and honestly and maybe ask questions. With my dd she may ask me specific questions about it too. If "good job" is used in this context I don't see how it could be wrong although I do see how more specific words could be better.

And I LOVE







it when my dc WANT to help with something so if I'm feeling it at that moment I will tell them I love to be helped or thanks so much. Sometimes I feel very appreciative of their help with jobs so I tell them I really appreciate it when I'm helped or something similiar. I usually feel appreciative if I realize helping me might not be their first choice of activity at that moment and they help me willingly anway. I'm not saying something positive to them because I want them to feel as though they MUST help me but because I'm feeling positive AND I KNOW they don't feel as though they must because they will tell me if they don't want to for such and such reason







.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

No. Not useful, imnsho. Except as I was







at Captain Crunchy for her post in the Toddler forum.









Celebrate with the child! Judging the outcome feeds a dependence on external judgement of *results* rather than *effort*. Just like *needing*: "wow, you really did a 'good job' cleaning the house' is an emotional dependency. Cleaning the house for *yourself* is more satisfying because you can be consistently pleased with *yourself*. No risk of displeasure. A sure win.







Isn't that more portable and reliable and rewarding in the long run? Unless you have been _trained_ to depend on others for your self-acknowledgement of worth?







(As most of us are trying to overcome..........







)

Cleaning the house as a *gift* to others is different. And their delight or awareness is a pleasant result of the effort. And that can be enjoyed, even if it is a generic 'wow, the house looks nice' or 'good job'. Certainly to expect others to say 'the table is so much less stressful with all the stuff cleared off; and it is pleasant not to trip over all the toys in the sunroom; and wow! you cleared off the counters too!' *would be nice to hear*! But, *knowing* it made life more pleasant to people who cared is enough.......most of the time, for me. But I still ask for the strokes when I make a big effort.









Pat


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## Anuska (Nov 13, 2005)

I think saying "good job" would only build good self-esteem in the child.......and that is not a bad thing.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I personally don't think that "good job" is a judgemental statement. It's just a colloquialism, or whatever you call it. To me, it's like "Hooray!" or "Wow!" So I guess I think saying "Good job!" IS celebrating with your child. So, yeah, I use it too. For example, my dd made this little pattern with her fridge magnets the other day, and it took her a while. So then when she was done, she showed me, obviously excited, and I said, "Good job! You got all the reds together and the blues all go in a line here." and then she described it some more.

Also, I think I occasionally seek approval, and am not sure it's a bad thing. I think you can have a sense of self-worth, and still seek approval. I don't know, this isn't very thought out, but I think people can't live without seeking approval. We're social animals, after all.

Also also, this might get me flamed, but I pretty much hated that article "Punished by Rewards". When he describes the mothers at the playground as "saccharine" I was very turned off. I think manipulative praise will backfire almost instantly, and I think genuine reactions can include phrases such as "good sliding" and "good clapping". Maybe I just felt irritated because this is the least of our GD problems. I don't know.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
when my stepdad was 10, he made an electronic circuit thingy all by himself, and he had worked hard on it (it turned lights on). He went to show his mom, and he got something like "that's nice." with the attitude of "yes, of course you can do something like that. You should".
Now, he STILL remembers that, and it still bothers him now that he's in his 40's. All he wanted was for his mom to say "good job". (now, I have to say, that I do think she was not a very emotionally involved mom- she expected a lot, and didn't really make postive comments about much- because she expected them to do good things. kwim? I get the feeling that she was a bit "cold", and a bit self-centered)

It seems to me that he was looking for someone to show a genuine interest in what he had done. Why would "good job" have been any better than "that's nice"? Imagine she had given her attention to her son for a moment and asked how he made the thing and how it worked. When I am proud of something I have accomplished empty praise does nothing for me. In fact, it makes me feel like I am being humored or patronised.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
Imagine she had given her attention to her son for a moment and asked how he made the thing and how it worked. When I am proud of something I have accomplished empty praise does nothing for me. In fact, it makes me feel like I am being humored or patronised.

I said the same thing to my mom! She said that being asked how it worked would have been disappointing, like she had to say that because she didn't think it was a "good job". Something like that. lol
I totally agree with the empty praise making me feel humored!
I think my mom likes to "debate", and she just got on a roll with the praise thing! lol. She said she'd take "good job painting" (painting a room- she's remodeling her house) over "wow. Those edges look really good." because if someone said that, then to her it would mean that the rest looked bad.

At any rate, thanks everyone for the replies- stuff to think about


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
She said she'd take "good job painting" (painting a room- she's remodeling her house) over "wow. Those edges look really good." because if someone said that, then to her it would mean that the rest looked bad.

Don't you think that is kind of sad? For someone to see the negative in a compliment? I tease my DH about this all the time. He says, "That shirt looks good on you" and I come back with, "Are you saying my butt looks big?"

I stand by saying that you need to be specific in praise. I think your step dad would have gotten so much more from her asking about it and expressing a genuine interest, "How did you..." and if you must comment, say something like, "It looks like you put a lot of effort into this. How do you feel about it?" I try to get our kids to recognize their internal praise and use that as a gauge. "You worked really hard. Do you feel good about it?"

In the case you mentioned, it is hard to see where saying 'good job' would have been manipulative unless she wanted him to build another electronic circuit thingy. To me, it is manipultive when you praise only to get a repeated outcome. "Good job getting dressed!" Are you really impressed or are you hoping he will dress himself from now on? "Your clothes are on! How did that happen?" works better for us. Then I get the beaming, "I did it myself!" from him.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i usually say something more specific, but i don't think i deserve to be drawn and quartered for uttering a "good job" once in a while.


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *michelemiller*
i usually say something more specific, but i don't think i deserve to be drawn and quartered for uttering a "good job" once in a while.

If I sounded harsh and that I wanted to draw and quarter people, that was not my intent. I have no problems with a spontaneous, heartfelt "Good job!" I use it to share my child's enthusiasm. I was just commenting on using it to manipulate or make them dependent on our approval.

Sorry if my previous post did not reflect that.


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## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I LOVE to praise my dd, and get defensive when I start hearing various reasons why I shouldn't. I have said "Good job" so many times that my dd says it to me - and guess what, it makes me feel good!

That being said, I read a bit about praise in the "How to talk so your kids will listen..." book, and have tried to use the tools given there.

For example, when she gives me a piece of her treat, instead of saying "good job sharing" I will thank her and tell her, "You are a generous girl to share your treat with me". I can't remember exactly how the book puts it, but it made sense to me at the time about why this is a good thing to do. They can internalize something about themselves that they can carry with them rather than just a fleeting action, or something like that.

Also, if she shows me a pic she colored I might say, "Good job! I like how you chose lots of bright colors" so she knows I am really interested in her picture.

~Tracy


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

So is there a book that goes along with these ideologies?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

majazama, Unconditional Parenting talks a bit about praise, and how NOT to do it, alternatives, better ways of wording praise, and why certain types can actually do more harm than good. I liked the book a lot!

Hmmm...I think I'll read that part again- I'm sure it would help my thought process here. Thanks for the idea


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I was having this conversation with my mom, about praise. And in general, she tries hard to not use "good job" with ds. She'll say "you did it!" or something specific like that instead.
But she was telling me that when my stepdad was 10, he made an electronic circuit thingy all by himself, and he had worked hard on it (it turned lights on). He went to show his mom, and he got something like "that's nice." with the attitude of "yes, of course you can do something like that. You should".
Now, he STILL remembers that, and it still bothers him now that he's in his 40's. All he wanted was for his mom to say "good job". (now, I have to say, that I do think she was not a very emotionally involved mom- she expected a lot, and didn't really make postive comments about much- because she expected them to do good things. kwim? I get the feeling that she was a bit "cold", and a bit self-centered)
So that got me thinking, and it seems to me that if a child comes to you, all excited about something they made or did, it does seem that "good job..." followed by something specific, and showing interest, would be appropriate. Maybe not specifically "good job" but something involving some sort of value judgement- "wow! that's great!" something
I'm not "for" manipulative praise at all and I don't like behaviorism used on kids. I try to just describe what I see, and let dc go with how HE feels about whatever is happening. I'm not talking about saying "good job" on a regular basis. But what about when he comes to me and WANTS to hear me say that what he did was good?

I like to hear "the house looks great!" after I spent a lot of time cleaning. kwim?

So talk to me about this type of praise, if you would









I have read all of the criticizm about praise too. And that when we praise our kids it disrupts their inner voice. (they should be saying "good job" to themselves) Everythign about me says That I enjoy praise and it makes me feel good. It is not in any way my primary motivator.
Now to read the arguments against praise would be to assume that because I like praise I was over praised as a child and became a praise junkie and am an uncreative "yes man".
But I just dont buy that simplistic explanation.
After reading "Punished By Rewards" (eta. The book. Alfie Kohn mentions praise in Unconditional Parenting, but he has an entire book on the subject of praise and rewards called "Punished By Rewards") I have taken some of the good advice provided, but not come to the conclusion that I truly believe that "good job" is harmful.
I use it. My 2 year olds even praise ma! It is very sweet to hear a 24 month old say "Good singer Mama"!
By all means make praise 100% honest. (no faking it) And use details etc. . .
But as to whether or not "good job" is always an inappropriate response. WEll we each really have to decide that for ourselves.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Just curious- Has anyone known anybody they would consider a 'prasie junkie'? I remember reading the term in a book (can't rememeber which one though) as one of the reasons not to praise too much.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I know a lot of praise junkies. And I was one myself until I started deprogramming myself.









I'm not particularly fond of "good job," but I don't think it alone is going to make or break a child's ability to motivate him/herself independent of external validation. I try not to use it because my son literally turns off when he hears it (his dad and my mom use it a lot). It seems to kill his interest in whatever he's doing. When I talk with him about his work in a tone that conveys legitimate interest and excitement, he gets more excited. He's much more likely to continue with what he's doing for the sake of continuing rather than giving it up or slapping out something quickly to show and get another "good job!"


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

On this page is a link to the article: Five Reasons to Stop Saying Good Job
http://www.alfiekohn.com/articles.htm#null


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

I have no problem with praise if it's honest and genuine.
If I'm really excited and happy about something my child did, I'm not going to fake it and say "that's nice."

I also think praise should be appropriate for the moment.
For instance, asking my child to get her shoes because we're getting ready to go. If she does get them, I don't say "good job".
I say "Thank you. Now we can put them on and get ready to go outside."

I personally hate the words "good job" because they are so overused. So I really try to use other words.

Also, if I do praise I try to phrase it in a way that it focuses on her being happy with what she did.
For instance she was genuinely excited the other day that she unzipped her jacket by herself. She shouted happily "Mommy I did it!"
I was happy for her too and said "Wow! you did!"
Then I also said "That feels pretty good that you were able to do it all by yourself, huh?"
And she said "Yeah!"


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Something about the words "good job" really annoy me. I'm not certain what it is, but I feel stupid using them. I think maybe it reminds me of how people talk to dogs. When I grade papers, I tend to say "Nicely done!" when papers are particularly good. When talking with Simon, I don't use either, but he does get a fair amount of genuine praise and I think that I praise him a lot unintentionally too.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I actually described this whole ideology that "good job" as a bad thing to say is the salad dressing of parenting problems. I highly doubt that my genuine praise - however it is phrased - is going to turn my child into an attention seeking crazy person. While I totally get that it is better to use specific praise and I employ specific praise most of the time, I think "good job" has it's place. Obviously this is a your mileage may vary and you may do differently in your family type thing.

I really hate it when I read statements from other moms on MDC who hate to post in this forum because they think people will bash them for saying "good job." To me, it's just not that huge of an issue.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

I tend to say "thank-you" to my DD's when they do something "good", like peeing in the potty, or bringing me something they shouldn't be playing with.

And now, they are always saying thanks, or tank-oo (too cute when my 18 month old does it)







They learn by experience. I also have been trying not to say "good girl", too as I heard that it denotes that females are inherently bad.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

lisac77, I really don't think it's that small of an issue. Dh's parents continually praised him up the whazoo throughout his life. Even though their praise was unconditional (they'd praise him for anything and everything, though of course their praise escalated when he was MVP or otherwise won an honour), he learned to seek it out big-time and to only feel good when others acknowledged what he was doing. For a long time, if he wasn't "the best" at whatever it was that he was doing, he'd be miserable. Searching for praise/fame/acknowledgement became his mission in life, quite literally. When not given praise, he'd feel worthless. He's working through these issues, and has come a long way, but the praise that he received was very harmful to him. I think it also contributed to his being non-confrontational to a fault. He finds it difficult to do anything that would be upsetting to someone, even if that person is clearly in the wrong. He was a compliant child and never (or very seldom and mildly) punished.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm with Lisac on this one. Like every single other parenting tool (good, bad, indifferent), praise can be used well or badly, appropriately or overused. Obviously, the situation that Dal describes is overused and maybe used badly. But that doesn't mean that ALL praise is that way. Or that all parents who use praise as part (not the only part) of their tool bags are doing it (praise or parenting) "wrong". And a cannot for the life of me (yes, I've read all the articles and books linked) see why a single specific phrase, if used for genuine circumstances now and then, can be so cotton-picken bad. I think its one more way to sell books and make parents feel like they need experts in their lives. And if I ever get to the point that I am so perfect a parent that my sole "problem" is too much praise or using the "wrong" words to do it, then I will pat my halo, fluff my wings and retire to a cloud with a harp. Surely we ALL have other things that should get more attention?


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
lisac77, I really don't think it's that small of an issue. Dh's parents continually praised him up the whazoo throughout his life. Even though their praise was unconditional (they'd praise him for anything and everything, though of course their praise escalated when he was MVP or otherwise won an honour), he learned to seek it out big-time and to only feel good when others acknowledged what he was doing. For a long time, if he wasn't "the best" at whatever it was that he was doing, he'd be miserable. Searching for praise/fame/acknowledgement became his mission in life, quite literally. When not given praise, he'd feel worthless. He's working through these issues, and has come a long way, but the praise that he received was very harmful to him. I think it also contributed to his being non-confrontational to a fault. He finds it difficult to do anything that would be upsetting to someone, even if that person is clearly in the wrong. He was a compliant child and never (or very seldom and mildly) punished.

While I understand where you're coming from I believe this type of reasoning to be a deductive fallacy. Kind of a post hoc, ergo propter hoc scenario.

You are attributing your husband's attention-seeking behavior with his parents' constant unconditional praise. While this may be true (since I don't know your husband, his parents, or his situation growing up, I can't make that kind of judgment), I don't know that for sure. I only know that you think that it is true.

I think this argument may hold water, but I have not seen sufficent evidence that using general praise really results in negative behaviors from the child being praised. I think that some people naturally seek out attention. Couldn't one easily turn the argument around and say, "Because John never got praise from his parents, he is always seeking praise and attention from others." Without real correlation and proof (hard to get, I know) you can't really claim either of these statments as true.

Since there's no real proof one way or the other, I think that it is difficult to make a strong argument. I simply go with my gut on this one, and I'm sure you'll do the same.


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## lerlerler (Mar 31, 2004)

My 2 cents.

If your child puts one block on top of another (and has done this 1,000x before) and then pauses and looks at you for approval, it's time to cut back on the praise.

If she builds a 5 foot tower and has never stacked blocks like that and you are filled with the same awe that is in her face and you exclaim in glee "way to go, GREAT job" she'll survive!


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

I am kind of a praise junkie, and I'll tell you with me it goes WAY deeper than having "good job" said to me one too many times. It was a general attitude from my mother that I had to always 'over achieve' to be worthy. I don't know if I can explain it that well, but it was way more than the window dressing of the particular words that were said or not said. On the other hand, it may also be that I just have the innate personality trait of desiring praise.

I don't think that the occasional "good job", if genuine and heartfelt is damaging. I say this to other adults sometimes when I really think they have done a good job at something so why not my child?


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fly-mom*
I am kind of a praise junkie, and I'll tell you with me it goes WAY deeper than having "good job" said to me one too many times. It was a general attitude from my mother that I had to always 'over achieve' to be worthy. I don't know if I can explain it that well, but it was way more than the window dressing of the particular words that were said or not said.

I know what you are getting at. I got that from my parents too. It was more than the lip service of "good job" or other type of praise that did it. It was very obvious in their tone, mannerisms, and behavior toward me that if I would not have their approval or any attention if I did not do the things they expected me to do. And then getting praised with words by other adults/teachers for being the "good girl" and doing as I was told. Bad set up for me, from which I'm still recovering.

However, I think the issue with "good job" is that is it is so overused, all in the name of "praise the kids and build their self-esteem." I have seen too many people use that phrase and *no other*. It's as if they can't think of any other words to say.








So yeah, I hate the phrase. But I don't condemn people who use it when it's heartfelt and honest.

I do condemn it when it's half-a$%ed.
I have seen kids begging their parents "Did you see me? Guess what I did today. Mom? Mom?" and then the kid gets a half-hearted "Yeah, yeah, good job, that's nice, honey" while the parent is not even looking at them. And then that parent thinks that they have done well because they praised the child.







: Uh, no, you need to pay attention to the child and be genuine or tactful in your response. No need to gush and fawn like it's the eighth wonder of the world. But do try to show the child that you really do see and hear them. I mean, really, how would you treat another adult? You wouldn't praise ever little thing they did, but neither would you ignore them.

I think, as with most things, there is a certain balance needed.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wugmama*
I LOVE to praise my dd, and get defensive when I start hearing various reasons why I shouldn't. I have said "Good job" so many times that my dd says it to me - and guess what, it makes me feel good!

That being said, I read a bit about praise in the "How to talk so your kids will listen..." book, and have tried to use the tools given there.

For example, when she gives me a piece of her treat, instead of saying "good job sharing" I will thank her and tell her, "You are a generous girl to share your treat with me". I can't remember exactly how the book puts it, but it made sense to me at the time about why this is a good thing to do. They can internalize something about themselves that they can carry with them rather than just a fleeting action, or something like that.

Also, if she shows me a pic she colored I might say, "Good job! I like how you chose lots of bright colors" so she knows I am really interested in her picture.

~Tracy


i dont get defensive, but i am dumbfounded about how people avoid praising children. i never received "good job" and "excellent work!" as a child and let me tell you, it does hurt the self esteem. i grew up completely clueless as to what my parents really thought about me and i assumed that they didnt think much.

i LOVE to tell seth "excellent work!" when he has accomplished something or "good job!" when he comes to me to show me something. to say that this is a bad way to raise your child is absultely utterly absurd.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal*
lisac77, I really don't think it's that small of an issue. Dh's parents continually praised him up the whazoo throughout his life. Even though their praise was unconditional (they'd praise him for anything and everything, though of course their praise escalated when he was MVP or otherwise won an honour), he learned to seek it out big-time and to only feel good when others acknowledged what he was doing. For a long time, if he wasn't "the best" at whatever it was that he was doing, he'd be miserable. Searching for praise/fame/acknowledgement became his mission in life, quite literally. When not given praise, he'd feel worthless. He's working through these issues, and has come a long way, but the praise that he received was very harmful to him. I think it also contributed to his being non-confrontational to a fault. He finds it difficult to do anything that would be upsetting to someone, even if that person is clearly in the wrong. He was a compliant child and never (or very seldom and mildly) punished.

so was he not priased when he did it wrong? because frankly we priase the effort not the result. and we praise all the time. we praise him for all the work he puts into things. i truly dont care if he becomes a dishwasher or a surgeon, i just want him to really get that the work you do in life is what is important. AND when you get a good result, thats something to be proud of.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I'm with Lisac on this one. Like every single other parenting tool (good, bad, indifferent), praise can be used well or badly, appropriately or overused. Obviously, the situation that Dal describes is overused and maybe used badly. But that doesn't mean that ALL praise is that way. Or that all parents who use praise as part (not the only part) of their tool bags are doing it (praise or parenting) "wrong". And a cannot for the life of me (yes, I've read all the articles and books linked) see why a single specific phrase, if used for genuine circumstances now and then, can be so cotton-picken bad. *I think its one more way to sell books and make parents feel like they need experts in their lives.* And if I ever get to the point that I am so perfect a parent that my sole "problem" is too much praise or using the "wrong" words to do it, then I will pat my halo, fluff my wings and retire to a cloud with a harp. Surely we ALL have other things that should get more attention?









:


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I definitely think praising every little action should be avoided, but I don't think kids should never be praised either. Like everything else, there is a balance that must be found. When it is a real accomplishment, I will praise my kids. I try to link the accomplishment to hard work, rather than to them being "good", which is a value judgment. Last year, my oldest dd had trouble reading in first grade. She is one of the youngest in her class. She ended the year behind and at the bottom of her class in reading. I sent her to a summer program for a month and we worked on her reading nearly every day. By the end of the summer, she was just about on the second grade level when she was tested. Now, that deserved praise. I told her I thought she worked really hard and did a great job. I also asked her how it made her feel to do so well on the screening. She told me it felt great. I thought it was important to make the connection between how much time she spent reading and her success. This helps prevent the "I'm smart or I'm stupid" feelings in kids.

As far as help around the house. I thank them for their work and help. I tell them the house looks great and that it was a big help to mom. Then we spend some time together playing a game or whatever. They learn that when we all work together to take care of our home, we have more time together.

I know this is rambling a bit, but basically, if it is a good job and the child worked at something, I think it should be acknowledged and praised. The problem comes when every little inconsequential action is praised. The praise becomes meaningless. Kids are smart. They know when they truly did a "good job" and when the praise is bs.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

i used to be a 'good jobber', or 'good XYZ' until i realized that there were times (i work with children) that it sounded so saccharine-sweet, and not genuine.

i prefer to be specific and to acknowledge the effort or intent that went into something, rather than 'evaluating' the outcome of it.

my mother was an overpraiser with me and (as an only kid), i felt tremendous pressure to perform, and am still working to overcome this. my mother tells dd, 'you're the best helper/jumper/singer... in town' i find this annoying and untrue, and dd has started to go around saying, 'i'm the best XYZ'er in town' (and expecting it to be true). i am going to put a stop to it with my mother. i don't want dd to have the same pressure.

i do praise her, but not *for the sake* of praising her. i thank her for specific things she does and tell her why i appreciate the action, and comment, 'i see you really thought about how to make that, and you look really proud of it, cool!'

i don't condemn people who say 'good job' but i think with more consideration, it's easy to break out of that sort of nebulous comment into something that holds more info for the child.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

i dont know what you guys mean about "every little thing" do you mean when seth gets out of the bathtub and i priasehim for getting out fo the bathtub then thats overdone? well WHO would do that??? the thing is, i was never priased for anything ever. i was never even told, i love you growing up. once. hard to beleive? thats not half of it.

im going to tell seth that he did an excellent job when he picks up his toy or when he starts to help or when he falls down and is scared to try again and does it anyways. if thats too much praising according to you, have me arrested.

i also tell him that he shouldnt pee on the floor when he does. is that bad too?

the whole thing about avoiding praise and reprimanding is patently absurd, IMO. you end up with feral children who do not know how to navigate in this life. both my husband and myself were raised in this fashion... me because my parents truly didn't give a damn, and my husband because they were of the experimental psychology set of the 70's which said that each child should be his own navigator. we both ened up flailing around in our adult lives with NO CLUE how to behave.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
i dont know what you guys mean about "every little thing" do you mean when seth gets out of the bathtub and i priasehim for getting out fo the bathtub then thats overdone? well WHO would do that??? the thing is, i was never priased for anything ever. i was never even told, i love you growing up. once. hard to beleive? thats not half of it.

im going to tell seth that he did an excellent job when he picks up his toy or when he starts to help or when he falls down and is scared to try again and does it anyways. if thats too much praising according to you, have me arrested.

i also tell him that he shouldnt pee on the floor when he does. is that bad too?

the whole thing about avoiding praise and reprimanding is patently absurd, IMO. you end up with feral children who do not know how to navigate in this life. both my husband and myself were raised in this fashion... me because my parents truly didn't give a damn, and my husband because they were of the experimental psychology set of the 70's which said that each child should be his own navigator. we both ened up flailing around in our adult lives with NO CLUE how to behave.

There is a difference between praise and positive feedback. Most of us who don't praise (or don't praise much) DO constantly give feedback- tell dc how their actions affect others, etc. "thanks for helping me pick up your toys. It makes it go faster, and now we can do something else" or "Hey! You built that tower up really high!" We just don't *evaluate* what dc do. "You did a good job helping"
And, I'd bet that just about every mom here constantly shows love, affection, and appreciation to her dc. Without praising. I want ds to know that I love him for HIM, not what he *does*. kwim? And I don't love him less if he decided to NOT help me clean.

I also don't praise because, I trust that he is able to judge for himself what he wants to do or not. What's worth doing or not. He knows if stacking the blocks up is a worthwhile thing to do, to him. He knows if he wants to help clean up toys or not (almost always does). I let him know how his actions affect others (in the case of helping me clean, say).
I sit and play blocks with him, and he builds. Honestly, he has fun doing it, and never looks to me to see if I approve of what he's doing or not. He has uninhibited fun. He's doing it for himself. Sometimes, if he stacks a lot, I might say that.

As far as not guiding, I guide him plenty. Like I said, I tell him how his actions affect others. I tell him what is socially acceptable, and what isn't- matter of factly. I don't reprimand, or shame, or yell. I do tell him not to pee on the floor "The floor's not where we pee. We pee in the potty, or you can pee in your diaper." (obviously not *expecting* it yet) Giving information about how the world works.
He chooses to do the socially acceptable thing, most of the time. Without praise or reprimanding from me. Just feedback and information.
And trust me, the boy knows he's loved


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Just wanted to add a few thoughts here:

I think that manipulative praise (praise done in order to get a certain action to continue or occur again) undermines a child's innate sociability, and a child's natural desire to learn, achieve, and accomplish. That's why I don't feel the need to praise ds for getting the blocks in the shape sorter- he has a natural desire to do that.

and a few quotes that I really liked from Unconditional Parenting:
about a study in which kids who were praised for "displays of generosity" actually became LESS generous than other kids- "Those actions came to be seen not as something valuable in their own right but as something the children had to do to get that reaction again from an adult." It becomes a means to an end.

and
"Why do we feel the need to keep evaluating our children's actions, turning them into "jobs" that may, if they're lucky, be deemed "good"?
We don't need to evaluate in order to encourage.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Good points Deva33mommy. I think that you can give your child your attention and encouragment without the judgment. Your child shouldn't feel that every little thing they is being judged good or bad.

Quote:

the whole thing about avoiding praise and reprimanding is patently absurd, IMO. you end up with feral children who do not know how to navigate in this life. both my husband and myself were raised in this fashion... me because my parents truly didn't give a damn, and my husband because they were of the experimental psychology set of the 70's which said that each child should be his own navigator. we both ened up flailing around in our adult lives with NO CLUE how to behave.
I think maybe what you and your husband had were neglectful parents. I try not to pass judgment on every little thing my kids do, but they do get plenty of love, attention, and encouragment. They are kind, respectful, studious young people. Definetly not "feral." They navigate life better than a lot of adults I know.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

First, thank you for this wonderful conversation on this topic. My husband and I were discussing it last night, and I was having a difficult time articulating to him the hows and why's of over praising or saying something like "that's my boy" when our ds does something good or funny or new. I'm glad we're getting a chance to reflect on our own practices.

Second, I wanted to respond to what some of you had said...

I do think everyone has has the right to their own parenting style, AND I do see the need for parenting experts in the world. I don't think everyone grows up with good examples of parenting... and so I think it is good to have other resources available for new parents to be exposed to new and different kinds of thinking. So obviously when the door is opened to critique every and all parenting styles, it seems apparent that there is likely a down side to nearly each parenting style (at least according to some "experts"... just look at the debates on almost every nfl issue). There is a book "Parenting from the Inside Out" that talks about the choices we make based on how we were raised. Bottom line, I think it's short sighted to think that we as parents, have all the answers within ourselves.

I also think that it is limiting to think that anyone trying to improve their parenting is aiming for perfection... to think that we will never be perfect, and therefore never try or to think that we have to be perfect parents BOTH seem to be mindsets that perhaps would limit ones ability to be comfortable with ones own parenting choices and limit ones desire to seek out continued education.

I some of you are dissatisfied with certain aspects of the way your parents raised you, then it makes sense for us as parents to seek out new information and not simply dismiss an idea as insignificant. Certainly parenting is complicated and many things can go into how an adult child feels about how he/she was raised. Is it the statement that stuck with one child throughout his life, or was it the overall parenting over his childhood? He can only know for himself.... But as for the rest of us, I'm sure none of us would wish this outcome upon our children. We should take pause, however, when we think we're involved attentive parents... are our children receptive to what we are doing... in other words, are our children seeing our parenting as we intend it??

Thanks again for this conversation... btw there was a mothering article about too much praise from a school teacher I think... her son got an award certificate for "good job" at doing a "good job" also a certificate for doing a good job at losing a tooth... IMHO I think that's over the top, and that there are real examples of over praising in today's society.


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
There is a difference between praise and positive feedback. Most of us who don't praise (or don't praise much) DO constantly give feedback- tell dc how their actions affect others, etc. "thanks for helping me pick up your toys. It makes it go faster, and now we can do something else" or "Hey! You built that tower up really high!" We just don't *evaluate* what dc do. "You did a good job helping"
And, I'd bet that just about every mom here constantly shows love, affection, and appreciation to her dc. Without praising. I want ds to know that I love him for HIM, not what he *does*. kwim? And I don't love him less if he decided to NOT help me clean.


Thanks for making that distinction between praise and positive feedback, Deva33mommy. It hadn't occured to me to me to differentiate between the two. But I think it's an important difference.


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## Rmeg (Jul 8, 2005)

[.....


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rmeg*
If we, the people who love our children most, shouldn't praise them for work well done (obviously you don't have to go over the top) then who does? When I praise my own children I am careful to help them see the task as an achievement for themselves, or a demonstration of their own talent or ability, rather than a task that is done for my approval.


Ah, but you've made an important distinction there too. You are careful to show help your children see *the achievement for themselves*. That's different than empty praise or overgushing praise. Helping to feel good about a job well done for themselves rather than for your approval is a big difference.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rmeg*
And something else: as adults, we like to be praised for a job well done, in our employment by our bosses, by our partners, peers, whoever. Can't see why it shouldn't be the case for our children.

Sure, I like to be acknowledged. It goes back to the postive feedback that Deva33mommy posted about.
But the more I look for it from other people, the less I find it, and then the more I look. It's a vicious cycle.
So I have learned to be proud of myself and give this feedback to myself so that I don't have to depend on others for it. It's the internal gratification I try to give myself, rather than the external gratification.
When I do something I'm proud of, I may do a little happy dance or sing cheerfully for instance. That's not to say I don't appreciate appreciaton from others. I do. I just don't depend on it.


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

I found some lengthy quotes from Alfie Kohn's _Unconditional Parenting_ that I think are relevant here.
All emphasis is Alfie Kohn's

Regarding intrinsic (internal) and extrinsic (external) motivation:

Quote:

It's the difference between reading a book because you want to find out what happens in the next chapter and reading because you've been promised a sticker or pizza for doing so.

Quote:

...extrinisic motivation is likely to _erode_ intrinsic motivation. As extrinisic goes up, intrinsic tends to come down.
... Of course, there are always qualifications and exceptions to any one-sentence summary of a psychological finding, ...
[Kohn states that this basic idea has been proven by many studies (wtih children and adults and in many different circumstances) and references two sources here to find studies discussed.]

Regarding a study in which children were praised for sharing:

Quote:

Every time they heard "Good sharing!" or "I'm so proud of you for helping, " they became a little less interested in sharing or helping.
Thus sharing was just another thing that got a reaction from adults rather than sharing for sharing's sake or because it felt good to share.


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## Rmeg (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
So I have learned to be proud of myself and give this feedback to myself so that I don't have to depend on others for it. It's the internal gratification I try to give myself, rather than the external gratification.

I completely agree. Seeking external gratification only contributes to a never-ending, unfulfilling cycle. Which is, I suppose, what Kohn is saying in that later quote of yours.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rmeg*
What I want to emphasize is that extrinisic motivation is likely to erode intrinsic motivation. As extrinisic goes up, intrinsic tends to come down.

I disagree with this. I wonder about his research, or his review of the literature.

Most behaviors start out extrinsically reinforced and then become internally reinforced, NOT THE OPPOSITE. If you want to teach a child to enjoy books, then read to them alot, starting young, before they have any idea what the story even is. The reinforcement for them is, at first, the parent's obvious approval and delight when then point to pictures on the page, turn the pages, bring the parent a book to read to them, cuddling on the parent's lap, etc. This is just one example. Learning to read does not become intrinsically reinforcing for a long time. All those letters you have to learn, and the sounds of the letters... Using praise/positive reinforcement to get through this part of learning which doesn't have much intrinsic reward will help them get to the part that DOES have the intrinsic reward much faster.

Many, many behaviors are like this. I would guess that MOST behaviors, especially social ones, start out externally reinforced and then become internally reinforced as skill increases. If you refuse to use any external reinforcement, then it will most likely just delay acquistion of those skills that could be a great source of internal enjoyment in later years.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
Most behaviors start out extrinsically reinforced and then become internally reinforced, NOT THE OPPOSITE. If you want to teach a child to enjoy books, then read to them alot, starting young, before they have any idea what the story even is. *The reinforcement for them is, at first, the parent's obvious approval* and delight when then point to pictures on the page, turn the pages, bring the parent a book to read to them, cuddling on the parent's lap, etc. This is just one example.

I have not found this to be true. My experience is that human beings enjoy stories. You do not need to offer a reward to a toddler for looking at a book. It might be true that the closeness of reading with a parent is also enjoyable (and therefore part of the child's motivation), but I do not think the parent's aproval has anything to do with motivating a child to read. My three older children enjoy reading. They read often and entirely for their own pleasure, and I've never told them "good job reading." What we have done is encourage their natural desire to read, by enjoying books together.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
I have not found this to be true. My experience is that human beings enjoy stories. You do not need to offer a reward to a toddler for looking at a book. It might be true that the closeness of reading with a parent is also enjoyable (and therefore part of the child's motivation), but I do not think the parent's aproval has anything to do with motivating a child to read. My three older children enjoy reading. They read often and entirely for their own pleasure, and I've never told them "good job reading." What we have done is encourage their natural desire to read, by enjoying books together.

I agree, Sunnysideup. I misspoke, I think. What I meant to try to point out was that for most behaviors, extrinsic reinforcement occurs first, followed by, sometimes, intrinsic reinforcement. I think you're right that most children don't need parental approval in order to learn to enjoy books and stories. But they do need reinforcement that is first derived extrinsically (closeness to parent, maybe, during reading, the story itself... these are extrinsic reinforcers. Eventually hearing a story and modifying it with imagination - seeing the story unfold inside their head with pictures - and then eventually, telling themselves stories - intrinsic reinforcement) and later becomes intrinsically reinforcing. To assume that a child will develop enjoyment of certain activities without first learning about them through extrinsic reinforcement is silly and, well, just won't happen. The parent can attempt to provide the extrinsic reinforcement, mindfully guiding the child towards those activities they feel will enhance and expand the child's life and experience, or the parent can refuse to use extrinsic reinforcement, believing that such reinforcement is somehow wrong or demeaning. In any case, if the parent does not participate in using extrinsic reinforcement, that won't stop LIFE from doing so. Extrinsic reinforcement is present in just about everything we do, sometimes randomly, and sometimes as the result of natural physical laws like gravity.

Humans, like most mammals, seem to be hard-wired to learn from consequences. Its not possible to stop that form of learning. It is possible to mindfully use it as a tool to guide children's learning in the direction that a parent believes is beneficial to a child.


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

I can already see that my son is proud of himself when he does something cool - it's all over his face. But I also see the joy on his face when *I* recognize how cool it is. I'm sorry but no current parenting fad is going to make me potentially screw my kid up. I wouldn't trade that look on his face for anything. I don't mind telling him that I think something is cool when I really do.


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## ceilydhmama (Mar 31, 2003)

I also use a lot of praise for things dd does. The coolest thing I have noticed recently about her is she is using all our positive talk and encouragement as her own "self-talk". We were hiking with dd recently and she had her own running commentarty going -
"Oh oh! - big step. I need to breath, relax and stretch. Wow - I did it! I'm great at this."

Personally, I think spontaneous praise should never be stifled. Praise for the sake of encouragement takes a pretty specific form in our house in that we tend to try to give information that helps with the task. For example dd has been trying to draw a christmas tree - the first couple didn't turn out anywhere near the way she envisioned so I think if I had "good job"'d them I would have ended her effort. Instead I told her I liked how hard she was working to learn and offered to teach her a few drawing skills that might help her get what she was trying for.

When she got the tree she was trying for she showed it so proudly it was clear she wanted to be praised.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annab*
If I sounded harsh and that I wanted to draw and quarter people, that was not my intent. I have no problems with a spontaneous, heartfelt "Good job!" I use it to share my child's enthusiasm. I was just commenting on using it to manipulate or make them dependent on our approval.

Sorry if my previous post did not reflect that.

LOL oh no no no no!!! i didn't think that was your intent at all!! i was in a sarcastic mood and was trying to be funny. it didn't quite work. HAHA! sorry.


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## kaliki91 (Jan 9, 2006)

I've read research that says that, for example, if your daughter shows you a picture she has drawn, say, "Wow! You put a lot of effort into that!" rather than saying, "Wow! What a pretty picture." Praise for effort, not for product.


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## kaliki91 (Jan 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ceilydhmama*
I also use a lot of praise for things dd does. The coolest thing I have noticed recently about her is she is using all our positive talk and encouragement as her own "self-talk". We were hiking with dd recently and she had her own running commentarty going -
"Oh oh! - big step. I need to breath, relax and stretch. Wow - I did it! I'm great at this."

Have you ever read about Vygotsky's Proximal Zone of Development? When children are learning something new, this is the final stage they go through before mastering a new thing. Your dd got this self-talk from you - you obviously have told her before, that when she runs, to "breath, relax, and stretch." She internalizes this and eventually learns to use it on her own. Lastly, she will advance to only thinking these instructions and not saying them aloud. That's why it's so important not to be critical when teaching a child something new. Instead, give them the internal dialogue that will be the most helpful. You did a great job!


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
There is a difference between praise and positive feedback. Most of us who don't praise (or don't praise much) DO constantly give feedback- tell dc how their actions affect others, etc. "thanks for helping me pick up your toys. It makes it go faster, and now we can do something else" or "Hey! You built that tower up really high!" We just don't *evaluate* what dc do. "You did a good job helping"
And, I'd bet that just about every mom here constantly shows love, affection, and appreciation to her dc. Without praising. I want ds to know that I love him for HIM, not what he *does*. kwim? And I don't love him less if he decided to NOT help me clean.

I also don't praise because, I trust that he is able to judge for himself what he wants to do or not. What's worth doing or not. He knows if stacking the blocks up is a worthwhile thing to do, to him. He knows if he wants to help clean up toys or not (almost always does). I let him know how his actions affect others (in the case of helping me clean, say).
I sit and play blocks with him, and he builds. Honestly, he has fun doing it, and never looks to me to see if I approve of what he's doing or not. He has uninhibited fun. He's doing it for himself. Sometimes, if he stacks a lot, I might say that.

As far as not guiding, I guide him plenty. Like I said, I tell him how his actions affect others. I tell him what is socially acceptable, and what isn't- matter of factly. I don't reprimand, or shame, or yell. I do tell him not to pee on the floor "The floor's not where we pee. We pee in the potty, or you can pee in your diaper." (obviously not *expecting* it yet) Giving information about how the world works.
He chooses to do the socially acceptable thing, most of the time. Without praise or reprimanding from me. Just feedback and information.
And trust me, the boy knows he's loved










and im telling you that i have a grown man who grew up the way you are describing and he is miserably messed up because of it.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rmeg*
I completely agree. Seeking external gratification only contributes to a never-ending, unfulfilling cycle. Which is, I suppose, what Kohn is saying in that later quote of yours.

see the thing is, wanting that perfect internal system is really Buddhist and all, but have you REALLY thought about buddhism? about not needing anything from the outside world? about being totally self sustaining and self soothing? its horrific, IMHO. really think on not seeking or wanting any external validation. makes for a sociopath. a buddhist sociopath


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
Good points Deva33mommy. I think that you can give your child your attention and encouragment without the judgment. Your child shouldn't feel that every little thing they is being judged good or bad.

I think maybe what you and your husband had were neglectful parents. I try not to pass judgment on every little thing my kids do, but they do get plenty of love, attention, and encouragment. They are kind, respectful, studious young people. Definetly not "feral." They navigate life better than a lot of adults I know.

definitely i had neglectful parents, but if you had actually read my posts you would have read that my husband was raised by his father who is a psych prof and was VERY vested in his child. wanting very much for reed to be a free thinker, independet, not reliant on others ideas but on his own. self sustaining and feeling that he was valid. but without someone to guide him as a young person, including praise and learning how to manipulate situations, he ended up unable to properly care for himself. his father totally regrets it.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Slabobbin*
I can already see that my son is proud of himself when he does something cool - it's all over his face. But I also see the joy on his face when *I* recognize how cool it is. I'm sorry but no current parenting fad is going to make me potentially screw my kid up. I wouldn't trade that look on his face for anything. I don't mind telling him that I think something is cool when I really do.

YES! Me too. THis is exactly what I think.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I think you're right that most children don't need parental approval in order to learn to enjoy books and stories. But they do need reinforcement that is first derived extrinsically (closeness to parent, maybe, during reading, the story itself... these are extrinsic reinforcers. Eventually hearing a story and modifying it with imagination - seeing the story unfold inside their head with pictures - and then eventually, telling themselves stories - intrinsic reinforcement) and later becomes intrinsically reinforcing.

Intrinsic motivation is a motivation coming from a personal desire. So, closness to a parent, hearing a story, these are things a child is normally intrinsically motivated to do. If a parent were offering a candy to a child, for example, every time the child sat on their lap for a book, then the motivation might switch from the personal desire for the story to the reward of the candy. Eventually they may not want to hear a story unless they get the candy. The same can be true when you use praise as a reward. Suzy loves to draw. Mom and dad highly praise every drawing. Eventually, Suzy is no longer intrinsically motivated to draw, she is extrinsically motivated (motivated by the praise). If the praise were to stop, so would her desire to draw.

Quote:

To assume that a child will develop enjoyment of certain activities without first learning about them through extrinsic reinforcement is silly and, well, just won't happen.
My children have all started walking because they were intrinsically motivated to do so.

Quote:

The parent can attempt to provide the extrinsic reinforcement, mindfully guiding the child towards those activities they feel will enhance and expand the child's life and experience,
A parent should expose their child to experiences and activities that will enhance the child's life. I have found that children will be intrinsically motivated (that means they have a personal desire) to try new things. I do not need to offer a reward (extrinsic motivator) for going to the library.

Quote:

or the parent can refuse to use extrinsic reinforcement, believing that such reinforcement is somehow wrong or demeaning. In any case, if the parent does not participate in using extrinsic reinforcement, that won't stop LIFE from doing so. Extrinsic reinforcement is present in just about everything we do, sometimes randomly, and sometimes as the result of natural physical laws like gravity.










Quote:

Humans, like most mammals, seem to be hard-wired to learn from consequences. Its not possible to stop that form of learning. It is possible to mindfully use it as a tool to guide children's learning in the direction that a parent believes is beneficial to a child.
Well yes, life provides consequences. My toddler sometimes falls, thankfully she is intrinsically motivated to run so the falls don't seem to deter her. I'm not sure what that has to do with saying "good job"?


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## writermommy (Jan 29, 2005)

I think constantly praising or never praising a child's accomplishments can be equally harmful. Constant, empty praise can make a child a praise junkie. On the other hand, never praising a child, even when the child specifically is seeking it can also be damaging, as many have stated from their own experiences. When a child works really hard on something, for example an elaborate drawing, and asks for my opinion, I will praise her. I don't ever use a blanket, "good job" but point out how much time she spent working on the picture and say something about the details of it. Of course, I wouldn't praise every scribble they make, but I don't think it hurts to offer occassional, specific praise. To blow her off when she is proud of herself and seeking a positive response would feel like a slap in the face to some children. Some may feel that mommy isn't happy or proud no matter how hard I work on something. That can also kill the intrinsic motivation of drawing. Of course, it depends on the individual personality of the child and the situation.


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## ceilydhmama (Mar 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kaliki91*
Have you ever read about Vygotsky's Proximal Zone of Development? When children are learning something new, this is the final stage they go through before mastering a new thing. Your dd got this self-talk from you - you obviously have told her before, that when she runs, to "breath, relax, and stretch." She internalizes this and eventually learns to use it on her own. Lastly, she will advance to only thinking these instructions and not saying them aloud. That's why it's so important not to be critical when teaching a child something new. Instead, give them the internal dialogue that will be the most helpful. You did a great job!

Interesting! I looked up a few articles and his theories do fit this process. I assume that we hold the self-talk even after we master a skill so it seems to emphasize positive, instructional encouragement. I know I have a bit of negative self-talk I need to watch and it is just so exciting to hear my daughter talk to herself so matter of factly about her abilities and her self confidence.

She was doing it this morning while building something with lego.

"Ok - its not what I planned. I can be sad about that for a minute but then I need to try again. Gosh! I'm creative!"

Lol!!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *writermommy*
I think constantly praising or never praising a child's accomplishments can be equally harmful. Constant, empty praise can make a child a praise junkie. On the other hand, never praising a child, even when the child specifically is seeking it can also be damaging, as many have stated from their own experiences. When a child works really hard on something, for example an elaborate drawing, and asks for my opinion, I will praise her. *I don't ever use a blanket, "good job" but point out how much time she spent working on the picture and say something about the details of it.* Of course, I wouldn't praise every scribble they make, but I don't think it hurts to offer occassional, specific praise.

I think your offering her encouragment and giving your attention to something your daughter is pround of. This is the sort of specific praise that is different from "good job." I react against the sort of dog training mentality of generic praise as reward to encourage behavior.

Quote:

To blow her off when she is proud of herself and seeking a positive response would feel like a slap in the face to some children. *Some may feel that mommy isn't happy or proud no matter how hard I work on something.* That can also kill the intrinsic motivation of drawing. Of course, it depends on the individual personality of the child and the situation.
I think it is important for children to feel loved and valued unconditionally. I don't think a parents love or attention should ever be tied to a child's performance.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
and im telling you that i have a grown man who grew up the way you are describing and he is miserably messed up because of it.

Disn't you say in another post that your dh wasn't guided by his parents? That his parents didn't want to "interfere" by telling them how THEY felt? That they didn't give him feedback on what he did? That they were more or less hands off?

That is most certainly NOT how I am raising ds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slabobbin
I can already see that my son is proud of himself when he does something cool - it's all over his face. But I also see the joy on his face when *I* recognize how cool it is. I'm sorry but no current parenting fad is going to make me potentially screw my kid up. I wouldn't trade that look on his face for anything. I don't mind telling him that I think something is cool when I really do.
Sure. But do people need to express "that's cool!" in the form of praise?
When ds was learning to climb, I turned around one day and there he was up on the couch. And I said "Wow! You got up on the couch all by yourself!!!" Big smile on my face, excitement in my voice. I'm pretty sure he realized that I thought it was "cool"!!!!
But I didn't feel the need to "evaluate". I'm sure he realized on his own that it was a "good" thing to do (in his opinion) cuz he keeps on doing it lol.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
definitely i had neglectful parents, but if you had actually read my posts you would have read that my husband was raised by his father who is a psych prof and was VERY vested in his child. wanting very much for reed to be a free thinker, independet, not reliant on others ideas but on his own. self sustaining and feeling that he was valid. but *without someone to guide him as a young person*, including praise and learning how to manipulate situations, he ended up unable to properly care for himself. his father totally regrets it.

I think you're right, he should have had someone to guide him. I think a parent's job is to guide, encourage, teach, love and value his or her child. I think you can do that without constantly judging their actions and "good Job"ing.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ceilydhmama*
She was doing it this morning while building something with lego.

"Ok - its not what I planned. I can be sad about that for a minute but then I need to try again. Gosh! I'm creative!"

Wow, you have the cutest kid ever.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
If a parent were offering a candy to a child, for example, every time the child sat on their lap for a book, then the motivation might switch from the personal desire for the story to the reward of the candy. Eventually they may not want to hear a story unless they get the candy. The same can be true when you use praise as a reward. Suzy loves to draw. Mom and dad highly praise every drawing. Eventually, Suzy is no longer intrinsically motivated to draw, she is extrinsically motivated (motivated by the praise). If the praise were to stop, so would her desire to draw. My children have all started walking because they were intrinsically motivated to do so. A parent should expose their child to experiences and activities that will enhance the child's life. I have found that children will be intrinsically motivated (that means they have a personal desire) to try new things. I do not need to offer a reward (extrinsic motivator) for going to the library.










Well, why would a parent need to provide a reinforcer for something the child already does and enjoys (e.g. is intrinsically motivated)? I'm referring to sometimes using external reinforcers for behaviors the child doesn't have yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
My children have all started walking because they were intrinsically motivated to do so.

Yes, and they will enjoy eating without needing to be taught to do so (usually), and satisfy their curiousity by exploring, and seek out physical contact, and engage in vestibular motion (swinging, rocking, etc), enjoy music, develop fine motor skills, develop gross motor skills, etc without needing any extrinsic motivation. We're born with some things already being intrinsically pleasing to us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
I'm not sure what that has to do with saying "good job"?

Nothing. I personally think using "good job" is too overt a value judgement, and should be used very sparingly, if at all. I was responding to Alfie Kohn's apparent belief that extrinsic reinforcement is always bad, and in competition with intrinsic reinforcement. I think he's wrong about that.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
Well, *why would a parent need to provide a reinforcer for something the child already does and enjoys* (e.g. is intrinsically motivated)? I'm referring to sometimes using external reinforcers for behaviors the child doesn't have yet.

This is the heart of the issue we are discussing and I agree with you.

Quote:

Yes, and they will enjoy eating without needing to be taught to do so (usually), and satisfy their curiousity by exploring, and seek out physical contact, and engage in vestibular motion (swinging, rocking, etc), enjoy music, develop fine motor skills, develop gross motor skills, etc without needing any extrinsic motivation. We're born with some things already being intrinsically pleasing to us.
But earlier you said:

Quote:

What I meant to try to point out was that for most behaviors, extrinsic reinforcement occurs first, followed by, sometimes, intrinsic reinforcement.
That's what I was responding to and what I take issue with.


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
see the thing is, wanting that perfect internal system is really Buddhist and all, but have you REALLY thought about buddhism? about not needing anything from the outside world? about being totally self sustaining and self soothing? its horrific, IMHO. really think on not seeking or wanting any external validation. makes for a sociopath. a buddhist sociopath

Okay, I'm confused.







: Who said anything about seeking an perfect internal system?

I know you're not necessarily singling me out, but since Rmeg did respond to something I posted, I felt I need to clarify some things.

In my post, I said that I try not to depend on others for gratification or motivation. I try to provide that for myself, internal rather than external. Some things I do because they make *me* happy or proud to do/accomplish them, not because so-and-so will be proud of me. Not because I'm seeking attention.

And I think the danger of *too much* praise causes people to do just that: they are constantly seeking praise.

However, there is such a thing as *too little* acknowledgement. From what I could gather from your post about your dh, it sounds as if his parents didn't give him ANY sort of guidance, positive or negative. A child cannot navigate for themselves. So that sounds extremely neglectful of his parents, although they thought they were doing the right thing.

There is a need for blanace, I think. Being genuinely impressed at something a child does and telling them so is radically different, I think, from constantly overpraising a child for some trivial little thing.
I would tell my child "wow,you tied your shoes all by yourself!" because I probably would be impressed at the first time she did that. But if she was already doing that for a good while, I would not be telling her "Good job!" each time she did it.

I also said :

Quote:

That's not to say I don't appreciate appreciaton from others. I do. I just don't depend on it.
That doesn't mean that I don't depend on others and don't seek out a support network. I do and I think many of us need that. Humans are social creatures (some more than others, introverts, extroverts, etc.)
But ...No man is an island.... isn't that how the quote starts?

And in the quote from Kohn he specifically says that there are exceptions and qualifications to any finding, but maintains that the basic idea of people being less interested in something the more they are praised for has been proven by many studies.

And finally, I respectfully disagree that Buddhism is about being totally self-sustaining and self-soothing.







: I'm interested in where that information came from? Although you're welcome to PM me about that since this is not a thread to debate Buddhism.

I'm not picking on you, geekgolightly. I sincerely apologize if you feel that way, because it is not my intention. My intention is to discuss an idea that you have posted/responded about.

Loon


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I have not read all the replies to this thread, but I did think of it today when my friend from out-of-state called me to tell me about something that happened in their home this weekend. Ths woman has two boys, 5 and 8, and she's about the best, most patient parent I know.

Her eight-year-old came to her (out of the blue) and said, "Mom, how come you never tell me I did a good job? Don't you like anything I do?"










My friend hastened to assure her son that she thought he did a lot of wonderful things, to which her son replied, "Yeah, but you never tell me they are good. You just talk about them." At this point my friend admitted to me that she did use a lot of description and observation when responding to her son's accomplishments, and that she made sure she always showed appreciation when he helped her out, but that she had actually never said, "Good job!" or "That's great!" She said she had been influenced away from that by Alfie Kohn.

Her son told her that he wants her to tell him he's done a good job when she thinks he has. He's homeschooled, so I don't think that he's been influenced to be a reward-junkie by being in school.










Namaste!


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
But earlier you said:
Quote:
What I meant to try to point out was that for most behaviors, extrinsic reinforcement occurs first, followed by, sometimes, intrinsic reinforcement.

That's what I was responding to and what I take issue with.

I'm not sure what you mean. Is it your feeling that all behaviors will eventually develop without any extrinsic reinforcement (that they will all come from a person's desires)?

For a young child, everything they need to learn to do is already built into them due to intrinsic reinforcement (called primary reinforcers -things we are born liking). The things they need to learn to do are intrinsically reinforced (eating is fun, being cuddled is fun, exploring is fun, moving your legs and feet and climbing and running and jumping are fun).

But as they grow older, there are many things they need to learn to do that aren't intrinsically reinforced, and as adults, the majority of things are not initially intrinsically reinforced.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I'm not sure what you mean. Is it your feeling that all behaviors will eventually develop without any extrinsic reinforcement (that they will all come from a person's desires)?

Maybe I misunderstood you. When you said: _What I meant to try to point out was that for *most behaviors*, extrinsic reinforcement occurs first, followed by, sometimes, intrinsic reinforcement._ This was when we had been talking about young children and thier desire to have stories read to them. So, I thought it extreem to think that _most behaviors_ needed extrinsic motivators. I have found that _most_ people are intrinsically motivated to learn _most_ things. I'm not saying all. There are some things we are not motivated to do and an extrinsic motivation might be quite helpful (a paycheck is a good insentive to go to work, for example).

Quote:

For a young child, everything they need to learn to do is already built into them due to intrinsic reinforcement (called primary reinforcers -things we are born liking). The things they need to learn to do are intrinsically reinforced (eating is fun, being cuddled is fun, exploring is fun, moving your legs and feet and climbing and running and jumping are fun).

But as they grow older, there are many things they need to learn to do that aren't intrinsically reinforced, *and as adults, the majority of things are not initially intrinsically reinforced*.
I don't think this is true. Maybe most adults are no longer intrinsically motivated because they have learned to expect rewards?







Why do you think adults do not want to learn? Doesn't jibe with my experience.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
see the thing is, wanting that perfect internal system is really Buddhist and all, but have you REALLY thought about buddhism? about not needing anything from the outside world? about being totally self sustaining and self soothing? its horrific, IMHO. really think on not seeking or wanting any external validation. makes for a sociopath. a buddhist sociopath











Um, are you Buddhist?


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
I don't think this is true. Maybe most adults are no longer intrinsically motivated because they have learned to expect rewards?







Why do you think adults do not want to learn? Doesn't jibe with my experience.

Because so much of adult life is about doing things that aren't intrinsically fun. I wish it were otherwise. I think it CAN be otherwise, but I don't know how to do it, or to stop doing things that aren't fun. But aside from that. Things like going to the grocery store, or doing laundry, or getting up every morning at 6am, or sweeping the floor, or washing dishes, or putting gas in the car, or writing thank-you letters, or paying the bills, or returning the videos on-time... none of these things started out intrinsically reinforcing. At first, sweeping the floor, before I knew how to sweep, I guess I needed my mother to teach me, and I needed her to say, "wow, the floor looks good." Now I can say that to myself for myself. I didn't even know to care that the floor was dirty until someone else placed a value on clean floors. I see the same sort of thing in my 12-mth DD. She loves to be dirty (and I love to see her having fun, so we're both quite dirty alot) but she sees no value in being clean, and she doesn't have to have that value yet. At some point that will need to be a value she has, and without an external force pointing out the value in being clean, I don't think she would really learn, since if no one ever said anything about having a dirty face and everyone ran around with a dirty face there wouldn't be anything intrinsically reinforcing about washing your face. Does that make sense? So many of our values as adults are given to us by other adults as we grow up and now they have become intrinsic values.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
Disn't you say in another post that your dh wasn't guided by his parents? That his parents didn't want to "interfere" by telling them how THEY felt? That they didn't give him feedback on what he did? That they were more or less hands off?

That is most certainly NOT how I am raising ds.

so you give out value judgements to your child? because if you dont, then what youa re doing is echoing things he can sort for himself.

Quote:

Sure. But do people need to express "that's cool!" in the form of praise?
When ds was learning to climb, I turned around one day and there he was up on the couch. And I said "Wow! You got up on the couch all by yourself!!!" Big smile on my face, excitement in my voice. I'm pretty sure he realized that I thought it was "cool"!!!!
But I didn't feel the need to "evaluate". I'm sure he realized on his own that it was a "good" thing to do (in his opinion) cuz he keeps on doing it lol.
its good youa re excited for him, but WHY do you have this fear or aversion to value judgements?


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup*
I think you're right, he should have had someone to guide him. I think a parent's job is to guide, encourage, teach, love and value his or her child. I think you can do that without constantly judging their actions and "good Job"ing.

what is it with the "constantly" thing? are you saying that you NEVER value judge or that you dont do it "constantly?" and why do you assume i do it "constantly?" or are you throwing constantly in there for no reason?

i love to tell seth GOOD JOB! when he has done a good job at something. i also tell him a million other things! WHO CARES if i say GOOD JOB or WHOA THATS AMAZING or YOU DID IT ALL BY YOURSELF SETH! why do you people get so weird about GOOD JOB?

its a value judgement. the world is full of them and it isnt a BAD thing. (irony hahaa)


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loon13*
Okay, I'm confused.







: Who said anything about seeking an perfect internal system?

I know you're not necessarily singling me out, but since Rmeg did respond to something I posted, I felt I need to clarify some things.

In my post, I said that I try not to depend on others for gratification or motivation. I try to provide that for myself, internal rather than external. Some things I do because they make *me* happy or proud to do/accomplish them, not because so-and-so will be proud of me. Not because I'm seeking attention.

And I think the danger of *too much* praise causes people to do just that: they are constantly seeking praise.

However, there is such a thing as *too little* acknowledgement. From what I could gather from your post about your dh, it sounds as if his parents didn't give him ANY sort of guidance, positive or negative. A child cannot navigate for themselves. So that sounds extremely neglectful of his parents, although they thought they were doing the right thing.

There is a need for blanace, I think. Being genuinely impressed at something a child does and telling them so is radically different, I think, from constantly overpraising a child for some trivial little thing.
I would tell my child "wow,you tied your shoes all by yourself!" because I probably would be impressed at the first time she did that. But if she was already doing that for a good while, I would not be telling her "Good job!" each time she did it.

I also said :
That doesn't mean that I don't depend on others and don't seek out a support network. I do and I think many of us need that. Humans are social creatures (some more than others, introverts, extroverts, etc.)
But ...No man is an island.... isn't that how the quote starts?

And in the quote from Kohn he specifically says that there are exceptions and qualifications to any finding, but maintains that the basic idea of people being less interested in something the more they are praised for has been proven by many studies.

And finally, I respectfully disagree that Buddhism is about being totally self-sustaining and self-soothing.







: I'm interested in where that information came from? Although you're welcome to PM me about that since this is not a thread to debate Buddhism.

I'm not picking on you, geekgolightly. I sincerely apologize if you feel that way, because it is not my intention. My intention is to discuss an idea that you have posted/responded about.

Loon


youre not picking on me at all. you make the most sense of anyone here.







good job!


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*









Um, are you Buddhist?


i seriously dont know if youa re kidding or not. did you read my post?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes, I read your post, and I figured you probably weren't Buddhist. My point is, if you're not Buddhist, you're probably not well-schooled in Buddhist philosophy and/or you don't really understand Buddhism, and therefore you shouldn't go around making such assinine and inflammatory statements about someone else's religion.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I have been thinking about this thread a great deal and something was really bothering me but I could not put my finger on it until last night when I was awake with a "have-to-go-potty-every-fifteen-minutes" child.

I am not a praiser. I was not told "good job" as a child unless my parents were very truly impressed which was not frequently. I got decent grades but was not praised for it. I had a few activities and talents, only one was I truly good at but enjoyed the rest. My parents were always supportive, kind, guiding, etc.....but not praisers. Not sure why. They were not the parenting book reading type. I grew up without the feeling that I should do that. dh grew up in a good-job-you-stancked-the-blocks house. He is a praise junkie. We have had trouble in our marriage because he does not feel I acknowledge him enough. He wants me to say good job when he empties the dishwasher or vacuums. I am more in the camp of noticing that he does things like this and recipocating with a treat or doing one of his dreaded jobs but without discussion. He needs pats on the back at work to feel like he is doing a good job. Over the last two years he has started to see where this came from as he was mindlessly doling out "good jobs" to dd. He started to notice that his mom still does this to him on the phoen. Without coaching or discussion from me he decided to stop saying good job to dd on a regular basis. We are excited with her when she accomplishes something , discuss the finer points of her drawings, remark about trying a new food, but none of these is a praising sort of way.

So I was trying to think of why it was really bothering me. I was on the swim teamgrowing up. I sucked at swimming. I liked it and I liked being in it with my friends. I knew I was not very good but did not care. Bad swimmers did not drag the team down. They did not get points taken away if I sucked. So I was happy. My parents really wanted me to stay on the team in an effort to make sure I got enough exercise. They sort of pushed me beyond the point when I started to not like it so much. At swim meets, my mom would always gush about what a greta job I did when I ended a race....last. I knew it was not a good job. It was not even a greta effort. It felt very fake and phoney coming from someone that did not yell good ob when I got an A in math. I started to really hate it and asked her to quit coming to my meets.

Another example was band in High School. I play the clarinet. Still do. I was quite good and was always first chair. All throughout high school we had marcging and concert band competitions. We got scored and got a one, two, or, three based on some judges opinions. Our director gushed year after year about how great and exceptional our band was. Good jobs all over the place. These were reinforced with all ones in competitions. Surely we were great. I felt like we were great based on these gushings. I am pretty sure they were not even gushings, but they seemed like it to me with my non-gushing parents. When I went on to college and started mingling with people from other schools, I started to learned the truth. All band directors do this. We were not special or exceptionally good. All of my friends claimed the same exception, all ones, etc..... I felt really cheated. I felt like I was lied to.

I still play clarinet in a symphony orchestra becasue I enjoy it. Not for the praise. We get no praise now. I am still motivated to play and get better. In fact I like it much better now because I am doing it for the enjoyment of the music. Not for a "one" or a "good job".


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## loon13 (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
youre not picking on me at all. you make the most sense of anyone here.







good job!









well, I'm glad my post made sense, then.









But I give! I post about not saying "good job" only to get a "good job" from you.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I disagree with this. I wonder about his research, or his review of the literature.

Most behaviors start out extrinsically reinforced and then become internally reinforced, NOT THE OPPOSITE. If you want to teach a child to enjoy books, then read to them alot, starting young, before they have any idea what the story even is. The reinforcement for them is, at first, the parent's obvious approval and delight when then point to pictures on the page, turn the pages, bring the parent a book to read to them, cuddling on the parent's lap, etc. This is just one example. Learning to read does not become intrinsically reinforcing for a long time. All those letters you have to learn, and the sounds of the letters... Using praise/positive reinforcement to get through this part of learning which doesn't have much intrinsic reward will help them get to the part that DOES have the intrinsic reward much faster.

Many, many behaviors are like this. I would guess that MOST behaviors, especially social ones, start out externally reinforced and then become internally reinforced as skill increases. If you refuse to use any external reinforcement, then it will most likely just delay acquistion of those skills that could be a great source of internal enjoyment in later years.

youre right. young ones arent internally regulated. they learn to internally regulate by learning that what they do is valued and worthwhile. after much reinforcement from parents, they begin to believe this and incorporate it into the vision they develop of themselves.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Yes, I read your post, and I figured you probably weren't Buddhist. My point is, if you're not Buddhist, you're probably not well-schooled in Buddhist philosophy and/or you don't really understand Buddhism, and therefore you shouldn't go around making such assinine and inflammatory statements about someone else's religion.

sorry i know this is months old, but im surprised and hurt. not only am i buddhist, but im well aware of precepts of buddhism and the basis of all sects of buddhism are the four noble truths http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html and in there the whole thrust of this is being unattached and not needing anything from anyone. the buddhist path has allowed me to let go of many of my compulsions, but its not end all be all for me. i see fault in it like everything else. i would never want to walk this earth as an enlightened being. too depressing. i enjoy a certain amount of attachment.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Why on earth not? I haven't read all the posts in this thread, just the first couple, so perhaps someone does have insightful reasons not to say this. But to me, it's just one of many appropriate ways to praise and encourage a child. I don't have a problem with the specific language used. Not sure why it would be bad??? It's more about your attitude, tone of voice, intentions, etc, than the actual words. Different language has different meaning to different people as well. Some people think you should never tell a child no. I find that peculiar, unnecessary and nearly impossible. It's a simple word which conveys a message. The message is important and is clearly and readily conveyed with one word. It's *how* people use the word no that makes all the difference in the world. Personally I think people can get too wrapped up in the precise wording and lose the message/intention/purpose/desired outcome.

I tell my kids "good job". And a lot of other things. I have this little fridge magnet that reads 101 ways to praise your child and it has all these different ideas, everything from "good job" to "you tried hard" to "I have fun with you" etc, etc, etc...


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

*double post*


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
not needing anything from anyone.

That's where you are wrong. The entire monastic tradition is based on monks relying on lay people. The Buddha NEVER said that we should not rely on others. Even lay people can become enlightened, and most lay people are householders who have family and friends and lives they love. It's not about not loving and not having enjoyment. (In fact, I think that the Dalai Lama is one of the most loving and joy-filled people in the world.) It's about not being so attached to your love and enjoyment that it interferes with your equilibrium.

I am sorry that I hurt your feelings with what I said, but if you actually think that being unattached in the Buddhist definition of the word makes you a sociopath, I think you are misunderstanding basic Buddhist teachings. And if you don't want to become enlightened, why are you even Buddhist? (And that's a rhetorical question, I don't actuall ywant an answer.) That's kinda like saying, "I am Christian but I don't love God."

Namaste!


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## holly7347 (May 26, 2006)

I haven't really done much reading up on this topic but it has been discussed a few times by moms in the AP playgroup I belong to. I do tell my 3 year old good job, I also say you did it when that is more appropriate to the situation. But I grew up very similar to the story you told. I never really heard "good job" or other similar phrases. I was a good student and would get like a 98 on a test or something and my mom would always act like that was ok but why didn't I get a 100. I did read an article once that says you shouldn't say things like "good job" or "thats pretty" when your child paints a picture because you don't want them to be creative in ways they think will please you, you want them to be creative in ways that please them. But like you said doesn't everyone like to hear a form of good job when they work hard.

I just don't see that it is so horrible to tell a child good job. Of course I guess it can be overdone. But if they learn a new skill or accomplish something they have been working long and hard on I don't see the problem.

Holly


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

i guess this is an old thread, but i'll add my 2c.

i mostly agree with AK. i haven't found a need to start saying good job to my DS yet, and he's 20 months. in fact we haven't had to do any concerted effort at external motivation. if we need it once in a while to get over a hump with something i'm not totally opposed, but i don't want it to be the first tool i reach for in our toolbox.

i totally agree with devamommy about reacting positively rather than praising. by reminding myself to not just reflexively say good job i find not only that i'm more descriptive and genuine in saying what i like in the moment, but i also have just settled into sharing the joy with him when he does something cool. and i can see how thrilled he is when he sees how thrilled i am and so on back and forth







i don't see myself as standoffish or withholding guidance at all.

EC has been a big part of me learning about parenting this way, btw. i've just taken advantage of his natural developmental capabilities and inclinations to get him potty trained rather than having to push the issue with extrinsic motivation later in life, or wait even longer until he's internally motivated to unlearn the diaper habit and learn the potty habit.

ds goes to daycare part time and it amazes me just how often the workers there say good job!! just for doing the normal behaviors that you would expect a child to do, they get a constant stream of good jobbing. i can see how in a family that doesn't use good job a lot a child would come home wondering why they don't hear it - it is _everywhere_.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
That's where you are wrong. The entire monastic tradition is based on monks relying on lay people. The Buddha NEVER said that we should not rely on others. Even lay people can become enlightened, and most lay people are householders who have family and friends and lives they love. It's not about not loving and not having enjoyment. (In fact, I think that the Dalai Lama is one of the most loving and joy-filled people in the world.) It's about not being so attached to your love and enjoyment that it interferes with your equilibrium.

I am sorry that I hurt your feelings with what I said, but if you actually think that being unattached in the Buddhist definition of the word makes you a sociopath, I think you are misunderstanding basic Buddhist teachings. And if you don't want to become enlightened, why are you even Buddhist? (And that's a rhetorical question, I don't actuall ywant an answer.) That's kinda like saying, "I am Christian but I don't love God."

Namaste!

Thank you for saying this Dharmamama...my understanding of Buddhism is that the suffering part comes from being out of balance...from attaching to things so you suffer when you lose them/can't have them and that by understanding this and finding a balance you can minimise and stop suffering in the desire to hold onto/find those things you are attached to.

I am a much more joyful and happier person as I learn to let go of things...but if you let go to the point of suffering you have not gained balance. Maybe then you have attached too much to the idea of perfection.

as to the discipline issue. I often will say to my kids "are you proud of yourself?" or "you probably feel very proud of yourself" and if they are I will say "I am proud of you too" or "yes, that's something to feel proud of"

I basically try to help them identify their own feelings..not project mine.

namaste


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I have not read all the replies to this thread, but I did think of it today when my friend from out-of-state called me to tell me about something that happened in their home this weekend. Ths woman has two boys, 5 and 8, and she's about the best, most patient parent I know.

Her eight-year-old came to her (out of the blue) and said, "Mom, how come you never tell me I did a good job? Don't you like anything I do?"










My friend hastened to assure her son that she thought he did a lot of wonderful things, to which her son replied, "Yeah, but you never tell me they are good. You just talk about them." At this point my friend admitted to me that she did use a lot of description and observation when responding to her son's accomplishments, and that she made sure she always showed appreciation when he helped her out, but that she had actually never said, "Good job!" or "That's great!" She said she had been influenced away from that by Alfie Kohn.

Her son told her that he wants her to tell him he's done a good job when she thinks he has. He's homeschooled, so I don't think that he's been influenced to be a reward-junkie by being in school.










Namaste!

That is really interesting. When I was a kid I often longed to hear "good job!" from my parents, too. But as an adult I have attributed this to the completely out-of-balance emotional atmosphere in our home.

I studied piano as a child and when I had practiced really hard and was playing a piece proudly in the living room, I would always secretly hope that one of my parents would come in and start clapping for me when I was done, and tell me how impressed they were...









But then I always was a praise junkie.









I bet this is one of those things that varies by kid. The more I read people's posts and different books and the more I see what people do with their kids IRL, the more I think that no parenting principle, however worthy, holds for *all* kids. I really try these days not to be evaluative (and I'm trying to get DH to do this too), but maybe some kids do kind of need the "good job"? Not because they have been brought up to expect it, but because they are just intrisically...more extrinsically motivated?









I am WAY more extrinsically motivated than intrisically and have been since childhood, again I always figured this was because my parents screwed up, but...maybe not!


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

where the heck have i been?
I have never heard this before and don't agree with it.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

I'm reading through this thread and I'm still baffled by why the words "good job" are an issue? It's just one of many phrases. Why do people get so hung up on word choices when it is our overall behavior that really counts? The precise meaning of the language involved may be strongly influenced by personal values or by context or by timing of praise or even tone of voice. "Nice job" could be snarky or filled with excitement. "Nice job" could be praising the effort put into something or the outcome. And what on earth is wrong with positive feedback specifically for a positive outcome? Not suggesting that *only* positive outcomes deserve positive feedback. But sometimes they do. And at other times, we encourage our kids by praising effort.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
I'm reading through this thread and I'm still baffled by why the words "good job" are an issue? It's just one of many phrases. Why do people get so hung up on word choices when it is our overall behavior that really counts?

I think the issue with "Good job" or "good boy" is that they are a judgement. It is MY judgement of someone else's actions. What is important, of course, is that someone's judgement of their own actions. I feel the same way about other phrases that carry the same value judgement.

Quote:

And what on earth is wrong with positive feedback specifically for a positive outcome?
absolutely nothing is wrong with positive feedback. Its just the judgement part that I take issue with.
So, as an example, when ds pets the dog gently, if I feel a need to say anything at all, I'd say "oohhh, Brooke likes it when you pet her like that! Look how happy she looks." Instead of "good job petting Brooke gently."
The former gives a lot of information about how his actions are affecting others, and gives him the *real* reasons for feeling good about what he did. The "praise" and the judgement comes from himself "oh, I made brooke feel good. That's a good thing to do." Instead of thinking that the reason he ought to pet her gently is because *I* have said it was good.
Does that make sense?

He gets lots of feedback. And I'm DEFINITELY not witholding praise because I think what he does isn't good enough (like in the pp who said that her mom wouldn't say much about a 98% on a test, because she could have gotten a 100%). I just don't think that he needs my judgement of the situation, to know for himself what is "good" and what isn't.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

So, here's my response to my OP hehehe
"Is 'good job' ever a good thing to say?"
Since I strongly believe in mutually agreeable solutions, I believe that if ds ever sincerely wanted my judgement of something, I'd give it to him. (its never happened)
But if he wants my attention, my feedback, my acknowledgment, I will give it to him in a non-judgemental way.
Ds is 2yo, and I have never come across a situation with him that called for praise. My feedback is all he needs to feel good about something he's done. If he needs that, even. He's not used to getting my evaluations, so I suppose he's comfortable in evaluating his actions for himself (based on my feedback).

Now, I did have a situation that showed me that sometimes "good job" is appropriate, especially with older people. Dp was coloring with ds, and he was really pleased with something he colored (you know, you get coloring, and its fun and nostalgic). And I was trying to come up with a way of commenting that didn't involve my judgement. And I couldn't. But he WANTED my judgement in that particular instance. He didn't want me to notice that he colored inside the lines, and he didn't want me to say "you colored", and he didn't want me to sit down with him and talk about his picture. He just wanted me to acknowledge that I liked it. So...I did. And we talked about it for a minute, and it was the right thing to do.

So there ya go. It is sometimes appropriate, but rarely necessary (or appropriate, imo) for kids. That's imo.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
He gets lots of feedback. And I'm DEFINITELY not witholding praise because I think what he does isn't good enough ......I just don't think that he needs my judgement of the situation, to know for himself what is "good" and what isn't.

Really? You don't think it's your job as a parent to teach your kids what is good and what isn't? Sure you do. You said as much when you explained to him *why* petting the dog gently was desirable. You have a belief that gentle treatment of others is "good". You're trying to instill that belief and behavior in your child. And from reading your thoughtful comments about how you try to gently guide your child to learn to determine right and wrong for himself and to grow to be a kind, conscientious person, I am quite sure that you hold strong values of right and wrong which you hope to pass down to your children. (And I say "good job mama!")

I do much the same type of praise and descriptive feedback with my kids. We spend a lot of time talking about the whys and consequences of behavior. But I think people get way too hung up on language. The initial question was "Is "good job" EVER a good thing to say?" Of course it is. How silly to suppose that one would NEVER say "good job". There are many situations where it's a perfectly appropriate thing to say. And many where it is not, or where something better could be chosen. But we could get way too caught up in the finer intricacies of words and forget to see the forest for the trees.

I do think language is important and we try to choose words carefully. For example, I tend to choose phrases like "it's inappropriate to behave this way_______ (fill in behavior)" rather than "you're being naughty". And that is usually followed with some discussion of the reasons why soemthing's not appropriate (consequences to self, others, etc). We hope that the values become internalized. But let's face it, when I do this, I *have* made a judgment about my children's behavior. Isn't that a part of my job as a mother, raising children with values?

I most definitely have beliefs about right and wrong. I'd venture to say pretty much everyone here does (or why would we all be hanging out on MDC in the first place?) I read judgments of "good" and "bad" on these boards all the time. How strange that think we cannot talk about what we think is "good" or "bad" with our kids, that it would somehow scar them to hear we disapproved of something they did or that they would be incapable of growing up to determine right from wrong themselves if we talk to them about what we believe is right or wrong or good or bad. And how peculiar that as a result of this, we go to such great linguistic lengths to find words that pretend that we make no judgments about their behavior. Of course we're forming our own judgments about their behavior. How on earth would we guide them if we didn't?

I suspect that our fundamental beliefs on the actual nature of teaching children right and wrong are not so different. But even after reading post after post, I *still* don't "get it" when it comes to NEVER saying "good job" or even why "good job" is exclusively bad. It's simply one of many phrases that we might choose from to indicate our response to what our child has done. And why anyone would think sharing your values with your child and instilling them in the child is a bad parenting thing, I just don't get that at all. I'm sure you all must not mean it that way, but that's the message that's coming across with some of the "never judge what the child has done" posts. Perhaps it's just that people have a negative connotation to the word "judge"? 'Cuz surely you can't mean that you don't want to correct your child when he does something you think is bad or encourage him when he does something you think is good???


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
The initial question was "Is "good job" EVER a good thing to say?" Of course it is. How silly to suppose that one would NEVER say "good job". There are many situations where it's a perfectly appropriate thing to say.

I gotta disagree with that. Perhaps a few situations where its approprate, but not many, ime. But I pretty much see what you're saying in the rest of your post. We do have our own judgements of stuff, and most of us will communicate what we consider acceptable and unacceptable.
I think perhaps the thing is (and i haven't had a lot of time to think out my wording on this) is that ME giving my direct value judgement takes away ds's opportunity to come up with his own.
Like I said, imo there's a difference between ds thinking "that was good" because I said "Good job" and him thinking "that was good" because I pointed out that it made someone happy.
And the choice is his. No, I won't let him HURT the dog. But I don't care whether he pets her or not. I'd rather him do it because he wants to make her happy, or not do it if he doesn't care, than to do it because he gets praised for it.

This page http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html talks about this better.

And this from The Continuum Concept "The familiar expedients of praise and blame wreak havoc upon the motives of children, especially the smallest ones. If the child does something useful, like putting on his own clothes or feeding the dog, bringing in a handful of field flowers or making an ashtray from a lump of clay, nothing can be more discouraging than an expression of surprise that he has behaved socially: "Oh, what a good girl!" "Look what Georgie has made all by himself!" and similar exclamations imply that sociality is unexpected, uncharacteristic, and unusual in the child." TCC 88

And I have seen differences in ds's actions when we are around family members who praise. And its not for the better. He really does get more concerned about HOW he does things. Things that, without praise, he'd just do whichever way because he enjoys it.
For example, at my mom's he has a ramp and a ton of balls that he rolls down the ramp. We put a basket at the end of it, just to catch some of the balls, so there were fewer to pick up. When it was just me and my mom, he was happy to roll the balls wherever. He got a kick out of them going across the room, toward the dog, wherever. But my Aunt and Grandma came, and started saying "good job" when the balls went into the basket. He started trying really hard to get them in the basket, but he's not quite able to do it, except by chance. So he had less fun that way, because instead of focusing on how fun it was to watch where the balls went, he was now focusing on getting them into the basket, and only succeeding part of the time. Where he was excited before when the ball went to the dog, he was just disappointed now. And either way was perfectly acceptable- I didn't care either way. No adults cared either way. They just thought that he'd like to hear "good job."

So, praise does change the way he does things.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I gotta disagree with that. Perhaps a few situations where its approprate, but not many, ime. But I pretty much see what you're saying in the rest of your post. We do have our own judgements of stuff, and most of us will communicate what we consider acceptable and unacceptable.
I think perhaps the thing is (and i haven't had a lot of time to think out my wording on this) is that ME giving my direct value judgement takes away ds's opportunity to come up with his own.
Like I said, imo there's a difference between ds thinking "that was good" because I said "Good job" and him thinking "that was good" because I pointed out that it made someone happy.
And the choice is his. No, I won't let him HURT the dog. But I don't care whether he pets her or not. I'd rather him do it because he wants to make her happy, or not do it if he doesn't care, than to do it because he gets praised for it.

This page http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html talks about this better.

And this from The Continuum Concept "The familiar expedients of praise and blame wreak havoc upon the motives of children, especially the smallest ones. If the child does something useful, like putting on his own clothes or feeding the dog, bringing in a handful of field flowers or making an ashtray from a lump of clay, nothing can be more discouraging than an expression of surprise that he has behaved socially: "Oh, what a good girl!" "Look what Georgie has made all by himself!" and similar exclamations imply that sociality is unexpected, uncharacteristic, and unusual in the child." TCC 88

And I have seen differences in ds's actions when we are around family members who praise. And its not for the better. He really does get more concerned about HOW he does things. Things that, without praise, he'd just do whichever way because he enjoys it.
For example, at my mom's he has a ramp and a ton of balls that he rolls down the ramp. We put a basket at the end of it, just to catch some of the balls, so there were fewer to pick up. When it was just me and my mom, he was happy to roll the balls wherever. He got a kick out of them going across the room, toward the dog, wherever. But my Aunt and Grandma came, and started saying "good job" when the balls went into the basket. He started trying really hard to get them in the basket, but he's not quite able to do it, except by chance. So he had less fun that way, because instead of focusing on how fun it was to watch where the balls went, he was now focusing on getting them into the basket, and only succeeding part of the time. Where he was excited before when the ball went to the dog, he was just disappointed now. And either way was perfectly acceptable- I didn't care either way. No adults cared either way. They just thought that he'd like to hear "good job."

So, praise does change the way he does things.

I completely agree Becky....can I call you Becky?









I try really hard not to project what I think is "good" or "bad" onto our daughter. Your dog example was a great one (imo).... We have a cat. Bailey loves to pet the cat and found out really quickly how the cat liked to be touched. She realized that if she wanted to continue petting the cat, it would be wise to touch gently otherwise the cat would run away or nip at her (she doesn't have claws, previous owners removed them







) ... I provided her with information of course "the cat likes to be touched gently"....demonstrated "like this"...and when she pet the cat gently and seemed proud of herself and happy that the cat actually stuck around, I acknowledged that (like you with the dog) "I see you are petting the cat gently, she seems to like that!"

There is no need for "good job!!" in my opinion. I have never said it to our daughter. I find it to be really generic first of all, and it places a value judgement on her and her actions. It also (imo) places judgement on something being inherently *good* or *bad* when hey, someone else may not think it was such a good job and who am I to say it was good anyway? In other words, I have no problem sharing my personal opinion with my daughter "I like when you help me put your toys away because the job goes faster/it's easier for me/ (whatever)" but to just exclaim "GOOD JOB!!!!" whenever she does something she either likes to do anyway, would do without my good jobbing, or when she is really looking to me for _acknowledgement_, not praise, is not something I am on board with.

I think most people want honesty, information, acknowledgement, positive feedback, even an honest (gentle) opinion if they don't like something--- praise to me is meaningless. Yes, it is *nice to hear* but only if I am proud of something myself. For instance, I fashion myself an artist. When I paint a picture, either I am proud of it, or think it looks like poop. If I think it looks like poop, I sometimes ask for feedback from my husband/friends etc... my husband though, could tell me it is the most wonderful painting he has ever seen in his life 10000 times and it STILL won't make me like it or be proud of it, even if he genuinely means it. On the other side, if I paint something I am really proud of, other people admiring it sure feeds my ego and I feel good that they like it, but I would feel just as proud without hearing how wonderful it is. Furthermore, if I think it is a kick ass painting and someone says it sucks, it doesn't make me like it any less.

This is what I hope to model for our daughter. When she is proud of _herself_ and looks to me for awknowledgement/encouragement/reaction/opinion, I give it to her "you are walking, I see that! Are you proud of yourself?" but I am just reflecting to her how she already feels, not externally motivating her actions or praising her for something she enjoys doing without the praise, not giving her a positive response so she will continue *desirable* behavior.

If she colored a picture and really wanted me to *praise* her for it like in the above example Becky gave with her son, I would say I liked what I liked about it (the colors, whatever) but again, presenting it as my personal opinion --- "I love the colors you used!" instead of "FANTASTIC PAINTING" because while it may be fantastic to ME, and HER, it may not be to Joe on the street and while I wouldn't say that to her out loud







I want to model for her that sometimes others may not think she is doing a "good job" all the time and that is just fine. The goal is not to please others, it is to be happy within ourselves while also respecting the right of others to be happy.

Anyway, point of the novel, we don't say good job.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

I was giving this thread some thought at our family meal this afternoon and decided to find out what my children thought of it. Dd#1 is 8 and she was the main one to respond. I didn't want to bias her about the actual debate we've been having, so I tried to present it just as a question about what she thought w/o letting her know that we grown-ups were sharing our opinions about it.

I started by saying something like "you know how mom and dad will praise you for things sometimes or give you feedback about something you've done, like saying 'good job' or 'those are nice the colors in your picture' or your sister liked how you played with her' etc, about things that you do" and then went on to point out more specifically how at different times we might say things in different ways, such as specific comments on the details of something or a general comment that they did very good work or a comment that we liked or admired what they'd done/made, and so on, etc. She was following me quite well.

Then I told her I was interested in hearing what *she* thought of the different ways that we praise her or give her feedback about what she preferred to hear from us. Her response was that she liked and wanted to hear our opinion and that specifically she wanted to be told "good job" for a task/project/achievement well done.

Hmmm... OK. So I delved into that one some more, thinking about the whole idea of raising a "praise junkie" as some people have suggested. I also thought about the posts that people had mentioned where they felt sad and hurt b/c they really really wanted to hear their parents praise them for a good job. Had to ask dd more about her thoughts... It was a very interesting conversation and quite insightful. I will try to do it justice here as I attempt to recount what was said.

When asked why she preferred "good job" over praise like "those are pretty colors", she was very clear that she felt the "those are pretty colors" type of "praise" left her wanting. She seemed to feel as though we were withholding feedback from her, not sharing our real opinions. She felt that it could even be "insulting" at times b/c she would be wondering if we didn't like it and were just saying something to say something. When I pressed her on that, she did like to hear the specifics of *why* we liked/appreciated/admired something she'd done or made. But she wanted not just the little details, but our overall opinion.

Basically, she wanted to hear "good job" b/c it felt like genuine praise, but also appreciated the detailed feedback b/c it gave meaning and support to what we said. That makes sense to me.

But what about teaching kids to do things w/o being praise? Is my dd developing an attitude that she *needs* praise to motivate her? That's a concern of course. I especially wondered about this given her expressed preference for the "good job" type of praise.

So, I told her, "Well, you know mom and dad do tell you "good job" and things like that, but we don't want to make it so you kids feel like you have to always hear praise from us when you do stuff. We want you to feel confident about doing things and to also do them for yourself and to feel good about what you do/make/achieve even when nobody else sees it or says anything about it. We also want you to be free to choose what you like and express yourself and decide your own likes and dislikes."

Dd's response was (and I chuckled a bit over this) to first to give me this really quizzical head-shaking look like I was just the nuttiest mom on the planet and then to say "Mom, I think it's been too long since you were a kid."









She went on to elaborate, "You see, I'm a kid now and so I can know about this stuff. That doesn't make any sense. I can do things without you telling me all the time that I did it right or good. I just want to know while I'm learning it. When you just say things like 'those are nice colors' then I am not sure if I did it right or not. But when you tell me I did a good job then I know that I know how to do it and then I can keep on doing it on my own and I don't need to ask you. And when I show you something I want to know what you think of it."








Hmmm, well that *is* a different perspective and food for thought. For those of you who believe in never saying "good job" how would you respond to the child who says that "good job" or other similar positive judgments give her the confirmation and assurance she seeks and encourage her to forge ahead independently with confidence?.

I still think a whole lot of the "debate" around this is semantics. And it varies from situation to situation and with the age of the child and the specific task or behavior in question. I think that part of what my dd was trying to tell me when she chided me for "not getting it" was that kids are smarter than we think. They can see right through us if our "praise" or "feedback" is contrived or if we're holding back something or evading their quest for approval or guidance. And they can sense when we're genuinely affirming their actions.

I'm a mom who does say "good job" and therefore my dd prolly interprets those particular words in that affirmative way. I'm sure that in families where noone uses the words "good job" that there must be other signs or words that perform the same function. It's the genuine affirmation that the child has succeeded, done right, performed a task well, learned a skill or whatever it might be we're talking about, that matters to the child. They *do* want and value our opinions. To me, that's a positive sign in a parent-child relationship, if the child values the parents' opinion and trusts their guidance. That's how I feel about my relationship with my dd.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

i say good job, good boy, you did it all by yourself!, strong boy etc to my son as he does little milestones, Hes proud with himself, and is looking for the praise and attention from us to, I don't think that could be a bad thing, its building his self confidence. We tell him when he gets frustrated about not being able to do soemthing "don't worry baba, you'll do it soon, no rush" and i think that also contributes to his confidence, because usually a few hours later or the next day he figures it out.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

When you just say things like 'those are nice colors' then I am not sure if I did it right or not.
Right to who? That statement kind of made me sad in a way. How can someone be drawing a picture "right" or "wrong" unless they were specifically trying to draw something from a picture of an animal or whatever, then they could tell by looking at the picture compared to their picture whether it was a realistic portrayal if that is what they are seeking.

I am glad it opened up a discussion in the family -- but I don't know how accurate asking your own daughter about praise would be if you have praised her entire life (as you touched on).

I don't know how saying "good job" would seem more genuine than actually discussing the job at hand, the details and specifics of why you like something or what you think could be done differently (if they ask) but I respect your daughter's opinion.

Also facinating, is how closely it resembles yours. Makes you wonder about nature/nurture eh?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am not going to beat this dead horse, but if anyone is interested in an extensively researched and well-documented ~200 page explanation of how people are Punished by Rewards: The Trouble With Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A'S, Praise, and Other Bribes, please see Alfie Kohn's book of the same name. It is available at many libraries, or on amazon starting at $1.15, plus S & H. The editorial and customer reviews of the book are listed in this link also.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...lance&n=283155

There have been many discussions regarding the dangers of using praise as a means of modifying behavior, it's damage to intrinsic motivation and the process of altering values through behavior feedback. I'll try to link a few of them for anyone who wants to (re)consider the debate about the consequences to which praise is associated.

Pat


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Right to who? That statement kind of made me sad in a way. How can someone be drawing a picture "right" or "wrong" unless they were specifically trying to draw something from a picture of an animal or whatever, then they could tell by looking at the picture compared to their picture whether it was a realistic portrayal if that is what they are seeking.

I am glad it opened up a discussion in the family -- but I don't know how accurate asking your own daughter about praise would be if you have praised her entire life (as you touched on).

I don't know how saying "good job" would seem more genuine than actually discussing the job at hand, the details and specifics of why you like something or what you think could be done differently (if they ask) but I respect your daughter's opinion.

Also facinating, is how closely it resembles yours. Makes you wonder about nature/nurture eh?

Hmmm... I guess I failed to convey this discussion adequately, as you seem to have misinterpreted dd's stance. She wasn't saying that in order to know if anything she did was good or bad she needed a parent's approval. She was saying that there are times when "descriptive praise" is not helpful and she wanted a solid answer. "Is this good?" "Did I do it correctly?" I didn't say there was a "right" and a "wrong" way to draw a picture. But there are an infinite number of situations in which there are "right" and "wrong" methods or choices or answers.

She was also saying that kids are smart enough to see through all that hokey phoney pseudo-positive stuff that gets pushed around at school and such (where every team gets a blue ribbon and everyone gets praised for something, no matter how awful their work or how minimal their effort, etc). My dd's teacher is one of those who believes that *everything* has to be presented in some form of positive feedback. Even if a kid does horrible work, there must be some element that she can lavish praise on. I'm not suggesting that you gals here do that (since clearly that's just the *opposite* of what you're saying). But my Lil is no dummy. She knows that "those are nice colors" is often used to avoid having to lie about something that really *wasn't* done well. That's why she said she really wants the honest opinion, "did I do a good job"?

Perhaps that makes it clearer what I'm trying to say? I try to be honest and sincere about my praise and my opinions to my kids. Like everyone else has mentioned, I *do* give specific feedback for this or that detail of what they create or perform. And when it comes to behavior, we discuss reasons and consequences and all. But sometimes, I just simply want them to know they're doing GOOD. They did a good job. And they like to hear that. It gives them reassurance and encouragement to proceed onward more and more independently. But I don't praise every deed or randomly tell them everything they do is "good job" "good boy" "good girl" etc. I certainly haven't "praised them their entire life" as you said.

I think I'm starting to take this personally. Weird b/c you ought to meet my dd. She's a very cool and confident kid. And very independent. She's a real leader within our family and very self-sufficient and thoughtful person. She marches to her own drummer and pursues the things that interest her, which are often rather quirky for an 8 yr old. She dresses in her own style which is very different from my own or from the kids at school. And she speaks her mind quite readily (including telling me I obviously didn't understand kids when I suggested the above topic).

It's true that my dd's response to the "good job" topic (that she found it hard to believe anyone would think that way) resembles my own, but she offered additional insights into the matter that I hadn't given consideration to (ie: the existence of "psuedopraise" in the school environment and how kids are smarter than that and are interested in your real opinion, and her assertion that instead of praise making you dependent on more praise it gives you confidence to freely advance on your own). Those were her thoughts, not mine.

I dunno. Your comment "makes you wonder about nature/nurture" bugged me at first, but reflecting on my dd, I suppose I should be flattered either way.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
There have been many discussions regarding the dangers of using praise as a means of modifying behavior, Pat

Who said praise was being used to modify behavior? Do people have a problem with praise in general or only praise that is intended to modify behavior?

Still scratching my head...


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I wasn't trying to insult you. I honestly believe you when you say those wonderful things about your daughter







I was just suggesting a sort of "which came first, chicken or egg" type situation --- does your daughter need praise because you have always praised her and she knows that is one of the ways you show approval/connection/love (whatever)? or does she *need* praise and you offered her what she needed.

I am in the camp of the former. I am not just singling you out, I feel that way about praise in general.

I would never say to someone "I love the colors you used" to *lie* about something I really didn't like and it is sad that people in general feel like they have to hear a good job from someone to feel proud. I don't think it is my place really to tell someone whether they did a "good" job or whether they did something "correctly. I will offer my honest opinion on whether I felt they achieved what they told me they were hoping to achieve, whether society in general accepts something as a *correct* answer (such as in math for instance), and my personal opinions on the subject "I see you used a lot of purple, you know that is one of my favorite colors!".

Praise is used to modify behavior. Using praise to reward children for doing things they like to do anyway takes motivation away from the actual *doing* and puts emphasis on how *you* feel. People think praise is about the child, when really it is about the person praising. It is about their evaluation on how their child has performed, what they have created, how they have behaved. Using praise to reward a child for something they wouldn't have otherwise done without the praise or reward is behaviorism -- giving responses which you think will make the desired behavior continue.

I want my child's accomplishments, creations, and behaviors to be about HER, not about me. I realize that most people who praise have pure intentions (for the most part) but it really does become about the person praising when people praise, and not about the person being praised. It becomes what did I like, what did I think was *good*, what do I think is *nice* what do I deem worthy of my praise -- and less about what the child feels about the whole thing.

I don't want to create situations where my daughter seeks my approval, as I believe she already has a desire to seek acceptance and belonging within her *tribe* or family. I feel personally that praise exploits that desire to be accepted, and takes some of her personal pride away.

Sure I am enthusiastic of her achievements, supportive, positive, loving, I acknowledge and reflect, ask questions (which she can't really answer yet but I ask anyway







) ....

I just don't feel good jobbing her is at all neccessary.


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## Oka-san (Jan 3, 2006)

monkeys4mama, I thought your story telling us what your DD thought about this whole issue was fascinating! It really gave me some food for thought and I appreciate you taking the time to type it all out for us to read. Very insightful!

In fact this whole thread has been really interesting. My own DD is only 12 months old right now but I assume as she gets older and more capable of doing other things I'll have to figure out how to best encourage her without turning her into a "praise junkie" - seeing as how I think every tiny accomplishment she makes is just about the coolest thing ever, I may have my work cut out for me!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I completely agree Becky....can I call you Becky?









sure









Quote:

Anyway, point of the novel, we don't say good job
I was lol at that. Funny


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
She was also saying that kids are smart enough to see through all that hokey phoney pseudo-positive stuff that gets pushed around at school and such (where every team gets a blue ribbon and everyone gets praised for something, no matter how awful their work or how minimal their effort, etc). My dd's teacher is one of those who believes that *everything* has to be presented in some form of positive feedback. Even if a kid does horrible work, there must be some element that she can lavish praise on. I'm not suggesting that you gals here do that (since clearly that's just the *opposite* of what you're saying). But my Lil is no dummy. She knows that "those are nice colors" is often used to avoid having to lie about something that really *wasn't* done well. That's why she said she really wants the honest opinion, "did I do a good job"?

I see what she's saying there. Like, saying "nice colors" is a way to keep from sayong what you really feel about it. (not you specifically).
I totally see that "false praise" thing too.

I'd say that you are right about

Quote:

I'm a mom who does say "good job" and therefore my dd prolly interprets those particular words in that affirmative way. I'm sure that in families where noone uses the words "good job" that there must be other signs or words that perform the same function.
That those feelings of "rightness" aren't lost in kids whose parents DON'T say "good job" because those ideas are felt, or experienced, or somehow known. Just not in certain words every time.
Well, obviously not ALL families who don't praise. But parents who give unconditional acceptance, positive feedback, and acknowledgement when desired.

And I have to say, I've noticed that it is very hard for me to refrain from praise with kids over 4 or 5. No big gushing stuff, but stuff like "yes, I do like your hair. Its very pretty." or "I like your singing." But that's where the holding back comes in. It would have been obviousa if I had searched for the "right" thing to say.
I've never had that with ds. I can always respond appropriately without praise. I don't know if its his age, or that I'm with him every day and learning as he grows, kwim?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
I want my child's accomplishments, creations, and behaviors to be about HER, not about me. I realize that most people who praise have pure intentions (for the most part) but it really does become about the person praising when people praise, and not about the person being praised. It becomes what did I like, what did I think was *good*, what do I think is *nice* what do I deem worthy of my praise -- and less about what the child feels about the whole thing.

yep, that would be my family. Tons of praise. for everything. I guess its better that its for everything, and not just for "when he really deserves it" (ick!). They do have great intentions!! lol. And I'm SURE he feels unconditional love.
And I think it is a lot about what THEY feel their role is, what they should say, and less about what he needs/wants to hear.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oka-san*
seeing as how I think every tiny accomplishment she makes is just about the coolest thing ever,

Me too







My ds is the best!
It was pretty easy for me, I never started praising. I just focused on what was happening, and how it affected others.

And *MY* big beef with praise is the manipulative kind. Any type of behaviorism is just not for me.
It all irritates me when used with my kid, but not too much anymore. kwim?


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

I say good job, but I usually preface it with something like "you must feel really good about that."


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## joy11 (Jul 31, 2005)

My DH and I have used "good job" lots of times with DS. It's always genuine, but I do wish I could come up with better things to say sometimes, but let's face it...I'm lucky I can even put those two words together on the spot with the sleep depravation and mommy-brain combo. LOL

Thanks for this post, though, as it made me think more about what else I can say. DS is extremely independent and does tons of new things every hour, so it's not like he's been hindered by my evil "good job" statements as far as I can tell. He seems pretty intrinsicly (sp?) motivated to me, as with most toddlers. So, I certainly don't want to mess with that in any way. Thanks for the eye opener!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
Right to who? That statement kind of made me sad in a way.

This made me think of dinnertime yesterday. My four year old was setting the table, and when she was done I said, "Thank you for setting the table!" She said, "Did I do it right?" She wasn't really asking for my value judgement, she wanted to know whether she did it the way most people set tables. I said, "You did it just the way I do." She said, "Does it look good?" I said, "Yes, honey, it looks great. You set the table very well." Just another way of saying "Good job." In her mind, doing a "good job" on something very concrete like setting the table means "Is it like you do it?" Does it really matter how she sets the table? No. But she wanted to be like me, and to her if she did it like me it was a good job. She simply wanted acknowledgement of that.

Namaste!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

You know, I have noticed that "good job" used in a sentence with a description, has WAY less of an effect (or no effect) on ds. That's the only way dp has used praise, and I've never noticed any reaction out of ds, or change in behavior at all.
So, it would be like "We did a good job spraying the air freshener. Now the room smells good." (saying "we" because it was a joint effort- dp held the can, and ds pushed the button).
Dp used to be quite ok with praise, but used it pretty rarely and only while being specific. I think he tends away from even that, now. Still doesn't see anything *wrong* with it in certain situations, just doesn't see it as necessary or helpful.

So I think a great goal is *descriptive* and *specific* praise, if you can't quite get away from praise (or don't find it necessary to). With no emphasis on the "good job." It's just a part of the sentence. kwim?


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

I think their is a big difference in offering up an opinion when asked and praising. If someone asks whether I like their new hairdo or not or what I think about their latest artwork, they are asking for my personal opinion. It doesn't necessarily impact their own opinion of their hair or art, that would depend on them and how they felt about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
And I have to say, I've noticed that it is very hard for me to refrain from praise with kids over 4 or 5. No big gushing stuff, but stuff like "yes, I do like your hair. Its very pretty." or "I like your singing." But that's where the holding back comes in. It would have been obviousa if I had searched for the "right" thing to say.
See, this sounds more like offering opinions than praise.







Wouldn't it be kinda off-putting to not offer your opinion when asked for it in most circumstances?

'Good job' just doesn't roll of my tongue, not saying I have never said it, I'm sure I have a few times, but its just not something that comes out, yk, and definitely not something that I would say on purpose. I think Deva's post points out why I feel uncomfortable with praise here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
And I have seen differences in ds's actions when we are around family members who praise. And its not for the better. He really does get more concerned about HOW he does things. Things that, without praise, he'd just do whichever way because he enjoys it.
For example, at my mom's he has a ramp and a ton of balls that he rolls down the ramp. We put a basket at the end of it, just to catch some of the balls, so there were fewer to pick up. When it was just me and my mom, he was happy to roll the balls wherever. He got a kick out of them going across the room, toward the dog, wherever. But my Aunt and Grandma came, and started saying "good job" when the balls went into the basket. He started trying really hard to get them in the basket, but he's not quite able to do it, except by chance. So he had less fun that way, because instead of focusing on how fun it was to watch where the balls went, he was now focusing on getting them into the basket, and only succeeding part of the time. Where he was excited before when the ball went to the dog, he was just disappointed now.
Why turn something a child is already ok with doing into a 'job' to be done 'good'?


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Interesting thread.







Working on it! "Good boy/girl/job!" can be a hard habit to break. The 1st few "You DID color, yes!" comments felt odd & a little mean...but it's getting easier.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

A question:
What do you all do about others speaking in this way ("Good Job" & such) to your DC?


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

rmzbm,

I am one who does try to avoid evaluative praise...I have found it is entirely possible to express my delight with something my toddler does without saying "good job". However I am not saying there is never a time for evaluative praise - I think that PP have made a good point, that sometimes the child (esp. an older child) really WANTS the parent's evaluation, and if the child is directly asking to be told whether the parent thinks something has been done correctly or if the parent likes it, they will tend to find a non-evaluative descriptive phrase unsincere at that point.

OK, as far as others saying "good job" etc...it drives me crazy that my DH, despite agreeing with me in theory about the need to avoid knee-jerk evaluation, constantly claps for DD when she does something (like stacking blocks or whatever) and says "good job" or "good girl". He seems unwilling to try out new phrases, even though I model them for him (i.e. "you stacked three blocks!"). He also feels the need to "help" our DD play...for example last night she was trying to stack some hollow plastic shapes that are not made to stack, and was actually doing it, but he had to butt in to her play and try to hold the shapes steady for her. It was inevitable that she was going to realize that the shapes could not be stacked as easily as blocks, but he was unwilling to let her figure this out for herself. When I asked why he couldn't just let her do her thing, he said he didn't want her to be "disappointed" with the shapes. That attitude really bugs me.

However, he thinks I'm annoying with my insistence on observation and non-evaluative commentary, so we both just try to accept that we have different ways of relating to DD. I can't control him or other people (unfortunately







)! I'll continue talking to DH about this...as far as others, like my parents or people from church, etc., who like to say things like 'what a good girl', I don't think there's much I can do. I can talk with my parents but they have their ways of doing things and are not likely to easily change at this point, and IMO it's not appropriate to correct friends of the family or people from church if they say "good job/good girl" to DD.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
A question:
What do you all do about others speaking in this way ("Good Job" & such) to your DC?

I don't worry about it, because my kids don't live in a bubble and they will have to learn that all people have different ways of interacting with others. Sometimes, after the fact, I will say something like, 'When Gramma said 'good girl,' I think she meant that she appreciated your help," but I don't get bunged up about people using their own words to express their feelings to my kids.

Namaste!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
A question:
What do you all do about others speaking in this way ("Good Job" & such) to your DC?

I tried to explain to my family how I felt about praise. My mom totally gets it (doesn't necessarily agree) and is respectful. She offers feedback, and gets excited with him and all that.
The rest though (my grandma and aunt) tried, but made very weak efforts. lol. I told my grandma not to say "good job" and that I didn't want him to feel like his social actions were surprising. So, the next time he put trash in the trash can, she said "Good show! I KNEW you help me throw the trash away!"








So, they praise, and they clap not only when he stacks the blocks, but when he knocks them over too. (which he is QUITE capable of at 2yo). They praise him for stuff it would never occur to him to even have anyone say anything about at all. lol.
I let it go, until it seems to be affecting him, then I'll say something obvious like "ANYWHERE the balls go, is good. Whatever makes you happy, is what you should do." (I use "good" there, to make a point. That the basket isn't the only "good" place.) And that helps (but doesn't stop praise. lol), because in the end what they REALLY want is for him to be happy.
Now, manipulative praise, I'd respond a bit stronger to.


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## joy11 (Jul 31, 2005)

okay, after mulling this over for a night...I really am having a hard time feeling like "good job" is such a terrible thing to say to a child, if the spirit is right and it's not manipulative. I understand the reasoning, but I guess I think back to my childhood, and what was important to me. My parents were the type to listen to children and felt they had rights and all that, but they are both HUGE talkers (and not to stereotype, but they are both Leos) and kind of get wrapped up in themselves and their ideas and I feel like we most likely weren't paid that much attention to unless we asked for it. I do remember liking dinnertime, because it was one time where each person in the family had a turn to talk and tell about their day.







Anyway, they are still this way, which is why I'm noticing with my child that while they love him so much, and care about his welfare, they can ignore him quite a bit of the time when visiting, and be oblivious to my need to interact with him and not just listen to them talk 24/7 about their lives.

So, getting to a point here...my grandparents OTOH, were EXTREMELY child-focused, and my brother and I lived for visiting them, as they got down on your level, talked to you with great interest in whatever you were doing, played with you all the time, were always concerned with your well-being, and you felt encompassed by warmth, love and affection and knew that there was no way ever that they would harm you in any way.

Now, my point is...these grandparents are very much the type to say "what a good girl....you did a really good job!", etc., etc. But, as a child, I felt so at ease around them, because of their aura, if you will, of goodwill and enthusiasm towards me for my very existence, unconditional love, whatever you want to call it, that I felt like I could do anything. Even though, they were HUGE caretakers, and would always want to serve you to the point of smothering, cut up your food for you, even hand you pieces of toilet paper while you were on the potty!!!







That one still cracks me up. (only happened until about age 7-8, just to clarify!)

So, I guess after thinking this over, I've decided that it's not so much what we say to our children, once again, but what we DO that matters. If you are a caring, responsive, attentive and unconditionally loving parent...that child is going to blossom and expand to his/her potential whether you say "good job" or not.

That is my two cents...







:


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

subbing...


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks for the replies!







Interesting things to mull over!


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## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joy11*
So, getting to a point here...my grandparents OTOH, were EXTREMELY child-focused, and my brother and I lived for visiting them, as they got down on your level, talked to you with great interest in whatever you were doing, played with you all the time, were always concerned with your well-being, and you felt encompassed by warmth, love and affection and knew that there was no way ever that they would harm you in any way.

Now, my point is...these grandparents are very much the type to say "what a good girl....you did a really good job!", etc., etc. But, as a child, I felt so at ease around them, because of their aura, if you will, of goodwill and enthusiasm towards me for my very existence, unconditional love, whatever you want to call it, that I felt like I could do anything. Even though, they were HUGE caretakers, and would always want to serve you to the point of smothering, cut up your food for you, even hand you pieces of toilet paper while you were on the potty!!!







That one still cracks me up. (only happened until about age 7-8, just to clarify!)

So, I guess after thinking this over, I've decided that it's not so much what we say to our children, once again, but what we DO that matters. If you are a caring, responsive, attentive and unconditionally loving parent...that child is going to blossom and expand to his/her potential whether you say "good job" or not.

That is my two cents...







:

I've been following this thread for some time. This is the first post on here that I have 100% agreed with. I don't think saying things like "good job" is going to harm any child. As a matter of fact, my mom was pretty deficient in the praise department. She was just wrapped up in her own problems and also had the attitude that any kind of praise would lead to her children being cocky about things (she still believes this and it spills over into how she relates to her grandchildren). So, I distinctly remember trying to get her to praise me and being hurt that she didn't when I could clearly see and hear my friends' parents praising them. Also, after a while, I just stopped trying. I did not ever put my best effort into school from about 7th grade on because no body seemed to care if I did. So, the no-praise movement just doesn't sit right with me based on my personal experience. Anyway, I really think there are more important things to worry about/focus on as a parent than whether or not you use the phrase "good job".

I so agree that child centerd people who give and show love and support in many different ways, including saying "good job" are the ones doing the best all-round parenting job.

Joy11 - Your grandparents sound like wonderful people.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
As a matter of fact, my mom was pretty deficient in the praise department. She was just wrapped up in her own problems and also had the attitude that any kind of praise would lead to her children being cocky about things (she still believes this and it spills over into how she relates to her grandchildren).

I see what your saying, and respect that.
But I just wanted to point out that most of us who don't praise are NOT like your mom was. We are quite attentive to our kids. And I don't worry about him getting too much self esteem from praising. Its the opposite- II worry about him feeling it as conditional acceptance (among other things.)
But I'd rather see someone praise for every tiny little thing, than to only praise when it was "really deserved."
At least if your praising all the time, your kids probably feel that unconditional acceptance. lol


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

deva33mommy i think i need to stalk your posts - i've been loving what you're saying not just in this thread but elsewhere, too









i'm sure good job can be used in a non-injurious way, and i certainly think it's unnatural to force yourself never to say it. i've said it or something like it occasionally when DS has really surprised me with being able to do something i didn't think he could.

what i see out and around though is total saturation levels of the phrase good job... i just don't think kids need to be praised for doing things they routinely do, or are routinely expected to do. and i would differentiate appreciation from praise - i routinely show my appreciation for DS doing what i want him to do... and i am grateful when everything goes smoothly... so he gets to see how happy it makes me.

as i think i mentioned in my previous post, our daycare is really over the top with g.j. related incidents involve:
-my DS recently getting a "certificate of appreciation" signed by his daycare workers... and this is at about 18 months... still in the infant room with a bunch of 6 month olds actually







and no indication of what they are appreciating him for??
-we've been EC'ing at home for a long time, but i finally got up the nerve to ask daycare to take him potty. every time he goes in the potty they put a sticker on his daily sheet that the parents take home. what does a 19 month old who's been going potty almost all his life think about getting a sticker for the deed? i don't even show it to him, i don't think he would even get it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Awww, thank you








I agree that forcing yourself to NOT say good job, when it feels like the right thing to say, is probably not helping anyone with anything. lol
Heck, when I tried to not say good job to dp, it felt really awkward and fake, and he KNEW what I was doing. kwim?


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