# Thanks for the advice(giving up on UP/PD)



## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Though I'm still going to read Kohn's UP book, I think I am going to give up on trying to do this. I've only been at it for a month, but no one is happy, including me. I am actually to the point now that I'm more miserable with my children than when I was giving punishments.

I guess I'm just not a good enough mom to do this. I usually have patience, but I can't do this anymore. I want to enjoy my children and the lives we have together, not look at them and just want to run away.

Thanks again for the advice.


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## xelakann (Jul 30, 2007)

Hugs! I hope you find something that works you and your kids!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

If you're finding UP to be too much, I'd try reading The Secret of Parenting. It's still non-punitive but comes from a much more parent-in-control perspective.


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Help me with the terms lol.. what's UP? I want to try and help, I just don't know what it means hugs!


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
If you're finding UP to be too much, I'd try reading The Secret of Parenting. It's still non-punitive but comes from a much more parent-in-control perspective.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kailey's mom* 
Help me with the terms lol.. what's UP? I want to try and help, I just don't know what it means hugs!

UP= Unconditional Parenting. and PD is positive discipline. I'm not sure if the fact that the kids are getting to me is because I'm sick and tired or not, but I'm beginning to really not like them so much or this advantage taking that they've been doing to me.

I know they're young, but today...was just too much. I live in a top floor apartment and they set up to banging things on the floor constantly. I pulled them aside several times, asked what they needed, explained why it was not nice to do that and they still did it.

Finally my downstairs neighbors complained and the landlord came to get on me about the noise.

I will try to find that book too and see how it works.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I will seriously second the Secret Of Parenting. And honestly, I don't thinik even UP would advocate doign nothing if your kids kept banging on the floor in a top floor apartment. If talking isn't doing anything, then firm but gentle actions are an alternative....such as, taking the objects, telling them they need to find something else to do or giving them something else to do...even having them sit on their butts in the room with you doing nothing if they're unable to control themselves. My kids are your ages and sometimes, if they're getting crazy and will not listen to my initial attempts at discussing it with them, they have to come in the room with me and just sit.

No punishment doesn't mean no boundaries, and no consequences to your actions. It means that the boundaries and consequences are age appropriate and aren't arbitrary, and aren't designed to show them "who's boss". Even in consensual living families, *mutual* solutions are found, which woudl include *not* bothering the people living downstairs. I'm not typign this to upset you, but to let you know that just because you don't do consensual or UP parenting doesn't mean that you can't still do a version of positive discipline. I want to encourage you!

GD doesn't mean your kids do whatever they want and you don't take any action. I'm sorry you're having a tough time right now - please explore the book recommended, it's a great, nonpunitive parent-in-charge positive discipline model!


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Sick and tired plus kids that aren't listening..yeah..not fun. I've had the thought before that my way of parenting was not working at all and was jeolous of the parents who had it "under control". Did you explain that the landlord came up because of the banging? I guess I don't have any good advice, but just know that you are not alone. My hope is that after Christmas; things will calm down. LOL I think I'll look into that book


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I will seriously second the Secret Of Parenting. And honestly, I don't thinik even UP would advocate doign nothing if your kids kept banging on the floor in a top floor apartment. If talking isn't doing anything, then firm but gentle actions are an alternative....such as, taking the objects, telling them they need to find something else to do or giving them something else to do...even having them sit on their butts in the room with you doing nothing if they're unable to control themselves. My kids are your ages and sometimes, if they're getting crazy and will not listen to my initial attempts at discussing it with them, they have to come in the room with me and just sit.

No punishment doesn't mean no boundaries, and no consequences to your actions. It means that the boundaries and consequences are age appropriate and aren't arbitrary, and aren't designed to show them "who's boss". Even in consensual living families, *mutual* solutions are found, which woudl include *not* bothering the people living downstairs. I'm not typign this to upset you, but to let you know that just because you don't do consensual or UP parenting doesn't mean that you can't still do a version of positive discipline. I want to encourage you!

GD doesn't mean your kids do whatever they want and you don't take any action. I'm sorry you're having a tough time right now - please explore the book recommended, it's a great, nonpunitive parent-in-charge positive discipline model!

I don't see it as upsetting at all. I'm just tired. I've given my all in this and hate giving up on anything, but I'm actually beginning to think they hate me. I know they don't, but as I've said, I'm tired. I'm going to go to sleep soon after I finally eat (i haven't eaten because I'm so stressed out from this yet today) and the try again tomorrow.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

How old are your kids? If they're used to acting to avoid a punishment, a sudden change from you (from being a stern "do it or else" mom, to "how can I help you") could absolutely cause problems, as they aren't likely to take you seriously.

My advice would be to not stop doing whatever you were doing before deciding to try UP, but to read the book anyway (if you're still interested in learning more about UP, that is) and slowly work your way into the type of parent you want to be.

UP (in my experience) is ALL about listening to your kids, and acting towards their needs (rather than punishing the behavior). It can certainly take some time to learn how to do this, but if you're truly interested in UP, don't sell yourself short. There's a big learning curve there, if it doesn't immediately come naturally to you. It will come.

And speaking of books, one of the best books that helped me is called "The Science of Parenting". It doesn't talk about one specific parenting technique, but it compares different techniques and explains (often with pictures of MRI's, or diagrams) how these affect a child's brain development. When certain actions are appropriate (like the use of time out, daycare, sleep training vs co-sleeping), things like that. It might give you a better insight on how you want to handle certain situations, rather than what type of parenting style you want to follow.

With that in mind though, definitely read UP when you're in a better frame of mind. It sounds like the "sick and tired" is getting the better of you. Maybe even take some time to sit down with your kids (think age appropriate and get to their levels!) and flat out talk to them about how they want to be treated (and why).

I'm really sorry to hear that you're feeling so low right now. But hang in there!! Take some deep breaths, and take it all one day at a time.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

PS. I've never read "The Secret of Parenting" so I can't comment. But I wanted to mention that the book I mentioned above was not a typo. LOL!

The Science of Parenting is by Margot Sunderland. I have no idea who wrote the other (but I've heard good things!).


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks. I ended up talking to Dh about it and I think what's really getting me confused is my mother's and MIL's advice, his advice, and then my own wants. He agrees positive works better than negative, but also believes that children need to also learn the hard knocks in life if they are to survive the harsh adult world. Which means, sometimes they need to learn about negativity WITH positivity to understand that life is not always a positive experience.

My mother and MIL believe that if we (their children and themselves) are still good, functioning citizens then obviously a bit of hard love doesn't hurt and are now upset with me because they feel as though I am calling their form of raising wrong. My mother especially thinks that I'm saying that the way she raised me (corporal punishment) made me a bad person and so I don't want that for my kids. I've tried to explain to her that I don't think that at all, but now she's not speaking to me. *sighs*

I on the other hand have always tried very very hard to keep positive with my children. I guess I'm trying to be a perfect mom because I only want them to have the best. So it bummed me out that I was having such a hard time while sick.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Another great book - Kids are Worth It. It will help you identify the way you were raised and how you can adjust whatever style you have to raise great kids (without punishment).

I agree with kids learning how to survive life's hard knocks but instead of using punishment I try to use discipline through natural consequences. I don't have to make them feel bad to get them to "behave." The author explains it really well and your DH might get something out of it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

UP isn't about not stopping something that needs to stop. It just means not using punishment, threats of punishment, or rewards or bribes to get it to stop. So you could take away whatever they're using to make the noise, distract them by getting out something else for them to do, giving them something soft to hit on the ground, or something like that. But you don't have to just talk about it and trust that they'll stop. If it needs to stop, just stop it by taking away the stuff. You don't have to get angry about it or anything. Just say, "I think that noise will bother our neighbors. Here, I'll take thsoe away, and you can do (whatever) instead."

If you live somewhere with bad weather, you're having trouble because kids have a hard time being cooped up indoors, and you can't get them out to a park so they can let off steam. Is there anywhere you can take them where they have have that kind of physical play?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
Thanks. I ended up talking to Dh about it and I think what's really getting me confused is my mother's and MIL's advice, his advice, and then my own wants. He agrees positive works better than negative, but also believes that children need to also learn the hard knocks in life if they are to survive the harsh adult world. Which means, sometimes they need to learn about negativity WITH positivity to understand that life is not always a positive experience.

My mother and MIL believe that if we (their children and themselves) are still good, functioning citizens then obviously a bit of hard love doesn't hurt and are now upset with me because they feel as though I am calling their form of raising wrong. My mother especially thinks that I'm saying that the way she raised me (corporal punishment) made me a bad person and so I don't want that for my kids. I've tried to explain to her that I don't think that at all, but now she's not speaking to me. *sighs*

I on the other hand have always tried very very hard to keep positive with my children. I guess I'm trying to be a perfect mom because I only want them to have the best. So it bummed me out that I was having such a hard time while sick.

We all have days like those







Try focusing on everyone getting respected- including you- it will make discipline easier when you have a clear goal in mind for the process.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

"Unconditional Parenting" is a very offensive term to me. (I've never heard it before this thread).

How would you (the general YOU here) like to hear that you're not parenting unconditionally just because you choose to discipline (which means _teach_) in a different way?


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## MichelleAnnette (Aug 20, 2006)

Something that works really, really well with my son, 2.5 years, is to give him a choice when I need to stop an undesirable behavior.

Example: He is sitting on my lap at dinner and is putting his hands in my food. I say, "Gabe, do you want to sit here and stop putting your hands in my food OR get down and play by yourself? I don't want your hands in my food." He almost always stops the behavior I want stopped, but if I say, "Stop putting your hands in my food," he often does it again and again. I also make sure to say, "I want you to..." or "I don't want you to..." so he knows that I am asking him to respect my wishes and not just telling him to do or not do something for a reason unknown to him. The choice is about empowering him to be responsible for his own behavior while also letting him know that certain behaviors are unacceptable.

If we lived in an apt and he was making too much noise, bothering others, I would say something like, "The neighbors don't want you to make this noise. It bothers them. Do you want to keep [insert whatever item is making the noise] and stop banging, OR would you like me to take [insert item] and you can play with something else?" I think that this shows that sometimes you do or don't do things out of respect for other people's wishes/peace/property. In turn, I respect his wants.

I love the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I also like the UP book.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

1. Whenever my mother starts to get defensive on how she raised me (not corporal punishment or anything, but things like sleeping on the tummy not back when I was a baby), I usually tell her something like, "But none of this research had been done yet! You didn't know about it because NO ONE knew." (Even if it isn't strictly true.)

2. Some of the more-traditional parents on MDC seem to like Love and Logic books. It is definitely more mainstream than a lot of what is usually recommended here, but they don't recommend spanking or anything.


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
UP isn't about not stopping something that needs to stop. It just means not using punishment, threats of punishment, or rewards or bribes to get it to stop. So you could take away whatever they're using to make the noise, distract them by getting out something else for them to do, giving them something soft to hit on the ground, or something like that. But you don't have to just talk about it and trust that they'll stop. If it needs to stop, just stop it by taking away the stuff. You don't have to get angry about it or anything. Just say, "I think that noise will bother our neighbors. Here, I'll take thsoe away, and you can do (whatever) instead."

If you live somewhere with bad weather, you're having trouble because kids have a hard time being cooped up indoors, and you can't get them out to a park so they can let off steam. Is there anywhere you can take them where they have have that kind of physical play?

My unschooling group was going to do a park day at the Library, but I've unfortunately been sick since the snow storm, so going out was a no go. I didn't want to get anyone else sick.

Usually though, during these cold months, we meet at the library or someone's house. Hopefully next week I'll be back on my feet and we can get out again. Even I'm getting a bit of cabin fever.


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MichelleAnnette* 
Something that works really, really well with my son, 2.5 years, is to give him a choice when I need to stop an undesirable behavior.

Example: He is sitting on my lap at dinner and is putting his hands in my food. I say, "Gabe, do you want to sit here and stop putting your hands in my food OR get down and play by yourself? I don't want your hands in my food." He almost always stops the behavior I want stopped, but if I say, "Stop putting your hands in my food," he often does it again and again. I also make sure to say, "I want you to..." or "I don't want you to..." so he knows that I am asking him to respect my wishes and not just telling him to do or not do something for a reason unknown to him. The choice is about empowering him to be responsible for his own behavior while also letting him know that certain behaviors are unacceptable.

If we lived in an apt and he was making too much noise, bothering others, I would say something like, "The neighbors don't want you to make this noise. It bothers them. Do you want to keep [insert whatever item is making the noise] and stop banging, OR would you like me to take [insert item] and you can play with something else?" I think that this shows that sometimes you do or don't do things out of respect for other people's wishes/peace/property. In turn, I respect his wants.

I love the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I also like the UP book.

The choice thing works well with my daughter. My son on the other hand...this is how a usual day goes with him.

Me discussing him trying to stand on the glass tv stand and almost having the 42 inch flat screen fall on him....

Me: Lu, that is dangerous. You could get hurt and that would make mommy said. Do you want to use the remote to turn the channel or would you rather go play with your toys in your room?

Lucien: Neither.

Me: Then what would you like to do?

Lucien: Nothing.

Me: Well you can come sit down with me and have private time.

Lucien: *runs off and 10 minutes later is back standing on it and tipping the large tv.

So then I end up taking him away from the situation, sits him down on the floor near me and he screams until he loses his voice.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think it's really hard to completely change the way you discipline overnight - hard on you and also on your kids. I would try to work more gradually... read the books, think about the ideas, implement a few of them... then come back and ask more questions.

So, in a situation when you previously might have punished your kids, try something goofy... make a big pillow talk and say, "No! Don't hit the floor! Hit me! Pleeeeasssse hit me! My turn!"

Or you could introduce some problem solving with them, if they seem open to it... on a white board or something write (and say) _Problem: Too much noise on the floor hurts the neighbors' ears_. Then ask for solutions and write them down... any ideas. You might have to get them started first, and it's okay to make them silly solutions... fill the bathtub with pillows and play there... go to the park... move to a new house.... and then talk about them and figure out together which ones to try.

You can always punish... that option won't go away. I think the challenge is to add more tools to your toolkit so that you'll start punishing less, and eventually maybe not at all. Really, your kids are so young... this gets easier as they get older. It's just really helpful to have things more discipline tools than 1. Ask them nicely to stop or 2. Punish.

And FWIW, my lovely almost 17 year old daughter, parented without punishment, has been navigating the real world for years now very effectively... so yes, this does work.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
Me discussing him trying to stand on the glass tv stand and almost having the 42 inch flat screen fall on him....

Ah. I would also try to set up your home to be as "yes" as possible, and put away the glass tv stand for while... maybe wall mount the tv, so it's not accessible. Putting down rugs might help with the noise, too, if you don't have carpets.


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
Ah. I would also try to set up your home to be as "yes" as possible, and put away the glass tv stand for while... maybe wall mount the tv, so it's not accessible. Putting down rugs might help with the noise, too, if you don't have carpets.

I'll have to get permission from the landlord. They are very strict on things i.e. loud noise, hanging pictures that leaves holes, painting. Is plasma the same as flatscreen? The tv has an attached base and a lump in back of it. I'm not really in tune with tvs as it's my dh's pride and joy.

If we can hang it, then I'll have to get written permission from my landlord. I'll see if it's a possibility. Certainly not something I thought of. Thanks.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Honestly, I woulnd't discuss the TV stand thing with him that much. The first time you go in the room with him for the day I'd remind him he's not supposed to go on it. The first time he gets on it I'd say, "You need to get down from there - you can get down yourself or I will help you." Then if he doesn't get down, I'd lift him down off without saying anything. Then if he climbs on it again, I'd just walk over and remove him from it, saying in a serious, flat, but almost bored tone, "That's dangerous, you're not to climb on it." and do it every.single.time. Even if you have to do it 100 times the first day, it will eventually sink in. I forget what the object was with my daughter, but I remember the first day I had to move her 26 times. It happened less the next day, and wasn't an issue after a few more days. While I agree with making environments kid friendly and not museums, I also believe that kids over 3 are definitely capable of learning that there are *some* things that are off limits. If he was 2, I'd say move the TV. But not at 4.

I'm sorry your mom isn't speaking to you, that's really on her and not you at all. Previous posters have given good advice on howto address her regarding why you're parentign differently. I might just add that maybe you could say to her something like, "I realize that I've turned out OK with the way you parented me. But kids can also turn out OK being parented different ways, and I've decided to try this different way." The way I see it - even if your kid turns out OK if you hit them, they also turn out OK if you don't hit them. So why on earth would you choose the method where you hit them? I think the problem is that a lot of people see no punishment (as in arbitrary punishment) as "doing nothing" - but that's simply not true. Stopping my kid from doing something hurtful or destructive, taking an item away from them when they're damaging it, leaving a place when they're not able to handle it, not allowing them to run amok, that IS doing something and they are learning something, which is, "you need to consider others when you do things"....it's just NOT arbitrarily adding something on top of that to drive the lesson home....which usually just ends up distracting from whatever lesson you were trying to teach and just makes them think about hating whatever punishment it was that you put on them.

re: learning about the harshness of the world. Kids aren't dumb. THey figure out very quickly what is OK in some situations isn't OK in others. They will learn the ways of the world without you having to do much of anything, once they start interacting with people more in public. I figure I want my house to be a soft, safe place for them to fall and regroup, a haven from the world, not just another place where nobody is looking out for them.

I am on the stricter/firmer end of GD, and do use logical consequences sometimes. While that's not the UP or consensual model, it still does fall within the realm of GD.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I also recommend The Secret of Parenting and "Mom Jason's Breathing On Me!" (both by the same author, I think his name is Anthony Wolfe) as a stricter version of GD for those transitioning away from spanking.

I have very firm expectations as a parent and I expect ds to be a respectful, thoughtful, reasonable person to the extent he is developmentally able at a given age. We have also unschooled from the beginning.

Ds is given a great deal of freedom--more freedom than most kids I know in real life. But he has also been raised to give us respectful attention when we speak to him. He does not have to agree with us--he has to engage with us in a respectful manner (ie. no whining or yelling). If he wants to stay up later, or eat something else for dinner, or wear his pajamas to the store, then he may do it--but ONLY if he remains respectful and reasonable in the discussion, which means accepting moments when he can't have what he wants due to other factors (we only have one item available for dinner, he is not feeling well and needs more sleep rather than less, it is too cold to wear pajamas outside). Ds is politely but firmly ignored if he is rude--it gets him nothing--no drama, no energy, no discussion at all, unless there is an emergency. The specifics of how that 'looked' varied with his age but both short and long term, it has effectively taught him to be reasonable and respectful.

Ds has never been spanked, grounded, or screamed at--discipline has been more 'global' than that--being respectful is just the way business gets done in his world.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
"Unconditional Parenting" is a very offensive term to me. (I've never heard it before this thread).

How would you (the general YOU here) like to hear that you're not parenting unconditionally just because you choose to discipline (which means _teach_) in a different way?









I wish people could talk about parenting without assuming that when someone says something about what they personally are doing, they are somehow also commenting negatively about what everyone else is doing. I've seen this reaction with absolutely everything. "gentle discipline" (what, you're saying I'm harsh!?) "positive discipline" (what, you're saying I'm negative!?) "homeschooling" (what, you're saying something's wrong with public school?!) "tv free" (what, you think my kids are mindless zombies?!), and on and on and on. Describing your own parenting practices in nice terms does not mean you're slamming everyone else in the world.

This particular term is from a book by Alfie Kohn, and the general premise of the book is that punishments, rewards, and other forms of parental manipulation convey to children that they are loved only when they 'behave'. He makes a good argument; I'm not fully on board with UP, but the terminology certainly accurately describes his philosophy.







:


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I wish people could talk about parenting without assuming that when someone says something about what they personally are doing, they are somehow also commenting negatively about what everyone else is doing. I've seen this reaction with absolutely everything. "gentle discipline" (what, you're saying I'm harsh!?) "positive discipline" (what, you're saying I'm negative!?) "homeschooling" (what, you're saying something's wrong with public school?!) "tv free" (what, you think my kids are mindless zombies?!), and on and on and on.

Gentle discipline means disciplining GENTLY. As in, no spanking, yelling, threats, bribes, etc. It means what it says. It's obvious.

Positive discipline means disciplining positively instead of negatively. No "nos", "don'ts", negative correction, etc. It means what it says; obvious.

Homeschooling means schooling at home. Again, it means what it says.

TV free? Means what it says, etc. etc. etc.

UNCONDITIONAL PARENTING, on the other hand, does _not_ mean what it says. Anyone who uses punishments, rewards, or any other kind of "parental manipulation" is still _parenting_, and it in no way means that the children are conditionally loved or loved only when they behave. *The whole idea of that is insulting.*

Quote:

This particular term is from a book by Alfie Kohn, and the general premise of the book is that punishments, rewards, and other forms of parental manipulation convey to children that they are loved only when they 'behave'. He makes a good argument; I'm not fully on board with UP, but the terminology certainly accurately describes his philosophy.







:
I don't think it's an accurate description at all. I think it would be the same as someone inventing a "Perfect Parenting" philosophy or a "Real Love Parenting" philosophy that, by its very NAME, casts insult (and sometimes judgment) upon others who parent differently because, well, then they wouldn't be _parenting perfectly_ or _parenting lovingly_.

But from here on out, I'll stop because I don't wish to derail the thread.

ETA: And when I say it's insulting, I don't imply that anyone here thinks less of those who discipline differently, or that I think anything less of those who use UP. I'm just saying - it's the NAME of the "philosophy" that I think is insulting. Kohn could have thought up something much less.....haughty?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I can sort of see your point - saying that anyone who uses consequences with their kids loves them conditionally is kind of harsh. Perhaps true technically, but harsh. Well, no - I love my kids no matter what they do....I just don't like what they *do* sometimes, but that doesn't mean I don't love them unconditionally. There's a difference IMO between loving them unconditionally, and loving everything they do - and further, just because I love them unconditionally doesn't mean I can't also correct them when they do things I don't think they should be doing. I don't think unconditional love and giving a logical consequence are mutually exclusive So I see your point. I don't worry about the terminology much though, personally.

Also, I had no idea positve discipline was supposed to never use "no" or "don't". Guess I can't call myself that, either.







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## joanna0707 (Jan 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 

UNCONDITIONAL PARENTING, on the other hand, does _not_ mean what it says. Anyone who uses punishments, rewards, or any other kind of "parental manipulation" is still _parenting_, and it in no way means that the children are conditionally loved or loved only when they behave. *The whole idea of that is insulting.*


Kohn explains in his book very clearly that it's not the parents who love their children conditionaly and decide to raise their children conditionaly, it's the children who perceive punishmnet and rewards as being conditional


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
Kohn explains in his book very clearly that it's not the parents who love their children conditionaly and decide to raise their children conditionaly, it's the children who perceive punishmnet and rewards as being conditional

Then that's a flaw in the children's perception and shouldn't be reinforced by calling parental discipline something it's not. That's like saying "Kids who are put in time out think that time out is neglectful and isolating", therefore let's call this new time-out free discipline "Unneglectful Parenting."









"Hey, we don't put our kids in time out. We practice Unneglectful Parenting." Imagine how that might come across.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

So when I was a kid, my parents were very clear that they ALWAYS loved me, even when they didn't like particular things I did. And they said it enough, and convincigly enough that when they did impose a consequence on me (which was very rare because I was a pretty compliant kid by nature), I never thought they didn't love me or worried about them only loving me if I was "good". I never questioned their love for me.

My own kids, I say the same exact thing to them regularly. That I always love them, no matter what they do. Sometimes, I may not like what they do, and may give them some kind of consequence, but I will always love THEM.

I've never been totally gung ho on Kohn, I'm more a Wolf gal myself. I am against the supernanny-type time out, but hav ebeen known to send my kids to their rooms to cool off, or come sit on the floor in the room I'm in to calm down if they're acting crazy. But it's never in a "you're bad so you have to go away" way, it's in a "everyone needs to cool down" - and trying to hug my kids through a problem does not work, it makes it worse.

I think a lot of the major concepts of GD need to be tailored to individual kids and their temperaments, and that not every idea will work for every kid.

Take, for instance, playful parenting. While some of the things Cohen talks about are oK with my kids, my son is exquisitely sensitive to anything even remotely patronizing - so the dramatic overmoting or goign super silly thing to does NOT work for him, it makes him really angry...whereas my daughter thinks its funny and it works for her.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I'm much more in line with Heather (The4OfUs). I'm not a huge Kohn fan. I understand what he says, and I agree with parts of it. But he's long on philosophy and short on practical advice. And I do find his tone to be 'holier than thou' at times, and it irks me. (I have the same reaction to another oft recommend author on these boards, whose name I have suppressed.) What this tells me is that you really do have to find a way that works for YOU.

I think it's important to distinguish punishment from consequences. The way I see it, punishment serves no purpose other than to make the person (child) pay. Consequences follow from the deed, either naturally or logically. Consequences _can_ be painful. But they can help someone learn.

A case in point: I gave dd a small bowl of shredded cheese this noon. She moved it from the table to the floor because she wanted to eat and play. It got stepped on, flipped over and spilled. If I'd sent her to her room for that offense (i.e. time out), it would have been punishment. As it is, I asked her to clean up her mess. At 5, her ability to use a broom is pretty limited and it took her quite a while (I helped at the end). She lost playing time and had to clean up her mess.

Now, my kids do get sent to their rooms. room. But it's anti social behavior that gets that. We do reconnect afterward. But dd has the capability of making the whole family miserable for an hour or more while she whines. She's free to whine. She's free to be upset. I'll even be sympathetic and caring for the first 10-15 minutes. After that, she's used up my resources, and I often get the impression that she's winding herself up more and more. I try not to hold a grudge. We reconnect afterward. But despite what Kohn has to say about timeouts, I'm fine with this use of them.

For the OP, your kids are at tough ages - 5 and 3. I wonder too if less talk and more action would work with them. My kids don't do well with a lot of talk. Some talk, obviously, but I find my frustration level goes up and their following the rules goes down when I talk too much.

When we have a habitual problem (climbing on the TV stand), I would not say something more than once. I wouldn't give my child choices either. "Get down from the TV stand now." is the only thing I'd say. And then I'd physically move him (to another room). Each and every time. The 2nd and subsequent times I wouldn't even say anything. Remove him and leave it. I'd even go so far as to remove the privilege of being in that room alone. (Or maybe block off access so he can't get to it easily.)

The other thing to remember for 3 year olds is that they often have to experience the consequence before they understand it. Now, it works to have them experience cold to have the 'get' why they should wear a coat. I'm not willing to risk the 42" tv falling on someone so they can learn the consequence. Hence my willingness to impose consequences. Do my kids like them? Nope. Do they learn from them? Most of the time.

Finally, remember before you throw in the towel or run off to Maui that you're sick, the holidays (whatever ones you celebrate) have thrown off everyone's schedule, and you've just had a disagreement with your mom about parenting. You need a good long nap, a hot bath and a couple weeks for everyone to recover.

I do believe I posted a tongue-in-cheek "For Sale" ad for dd when she was 3 and I was sick. Ah - here it is. At least you know you're not alone in your frustration.


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## joanq (Oct 27, 2005)

I would say definitely still read Unconditional Parenting, but don't feel the need to change everything at once.

I read and loved the book, but I see it as more theoretical than practical. It is about an overall way of treating your child (as a person deserving of love and respect at all times) rather than a practical way of dealing with specific behaviors.

I also agree with the poster that said UP is not about no boundaries. It is just about how to make boundaries that make sense and how to enforce them with respect.

Maybe to combine the ideas of UP with some of the more practical techniques in the books others have mentioned would be a good way to go.

Good luck and don't be so hard on yourself. No one is the "perfect parent" and I am more concerned about those who feel they are than those who have doubts.


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Interesting debate. I practice UP and I agree the book itself is a bit long on theory and short on practical applications. Two books that are much more practical are 'Connection Parenting' by Pam Leo and 'Raising our children,raising ourselves' by Naomi Aldort, often mentioned on these forums. I found both of them tremendously helpful.

I can imagine that it would be hard to change one's parenting approach overnight, esp with kids that are older (mine's only 27 months) and have got used to punishments etc. And of course the additional challenges of having more than one child. But I would just like to put my 2 cents in: practicing this philosophy in my parenting has created such a strong bond and a connection with my child; I enjoy parenting most of the time (we all have our bad days of course) as opposed to struggling through it, and it's early days yet but many people remark on how well behaved, happy, content and aware my child is, (and he's at a 'difficult' age), including people who have parented in more controlling ways and would never practice UP themselves. He is polite and considerate of others at a level most people don't expect of a 2 year old, and this is all without any form of punishment or reward: only modelling through my own behaviour, and gentle correction and boundaries where appropriate. Of course temperament comes into it, but I should add that he is a strong-willed child and that his tantrums are ferocious too









As for the terminology, it's a pity that the term 'unconditional' can be offensive to some parents, implying that they only love conditionally, but I can't see another way of putting it really, since the unconditionality is the central premise of the whole approach. I do think punishments and rewards convey to the child that the love is conditional, although the parent does not intend that.

I think UP is about changing one's whole mindset, letting go of traditional notions of hierarchy and control, and that takes time, and requires a lot of trust in the process. This is not easy in our results-oriented society and with the whole tide of parenting going distinctly in the opposite direction.


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## twinergy (Mar 30, 2008)

I can not recommend Google Books enough! They frequently post lengthy previews of books so you can determine if a book is something you want to read before you buy it. Here are links to some of the books mentioned in this thread:
Unconditional Parenting
Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves
Kids Are Worth It!
Playful Parenting

I think the UP preview clearly explains what Kohn means by the title. I also agree with PP that UP is long on theory and short on practical advice. It is really more of a psychology book about parenting and helped me put my own childhood in perspective. Now I understand why I am a praise junkie and a perfectionist. Kohn gives reasons why gentle discipline is more effective than controling discipline in the long term and backs up his claims by citing controled scientific studies. Kohn does point out that there are times, ie safety situations, where the parent needs to take control. But he spends so little time on this point that it gets obscured. He also mentions, again briefly, that there are various degrees of control in different parenting styles. It isn't an all or nothing kind of thing but rather an ideal to keep in mind. In other words, choose your battles. I think it is a great book to recommend to non-parents, and possibly grandparents (depending on the individual person's openmindedness) or anyone who isn't convinced that gentle discipline can be effective.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

I think it's pretty silly to interpret the term "unconditional parenting" to assume that the parents only love them if they're being "good", and even sillier to be offended by it. I once heard someone say that if your child is hitting or biting you and you put them on the floor (you don't punish, or leave the room... you simply stop holding them), that you're sending the message that you don't love them. Personally, I think this is absolute garbage. I know plenty of kids who have been parented "conditionally", and are best friends with their parents today. That said, they all seem to have their share of problems (undiagnosed health problems, anxiety disorders, easily hurt or quick to be defensive, socially challenged, lack of motivation, doesn't trust, sleeping problems, etc).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joanna0707* 
Kohn explains in his book very clearly that it's not the parents who love their children conditionaly and decide to raise their children conditionaly, it's the children who perceive punishmnet and rewards as being conditional

I distinctly remember on NUMEROUS occasions BEGGING my mom for help (in ways that kids do - outburts, tantrums, yelling, throwing things, hitting, etc) and being punished for my behavior. And while I don't recall ever thinking that she didn't love me, I do remember that every single time she ignored my needs, I wondered what was wrong with me that my mom didn't want to help or listen to me. Even as a grown up my mother still doesn't listen to me, and belittles my feelings often. But that's her problem.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
UNCONDITIONAL PARENTING, on the other hand, does _not_ mean what it says. Anyone who uses punishments, rewards, or any other kind of "parental manipulation" is still _parenting_, and it in no way means that the children are conditionally loved or loved only when they behave. *The whole idea of that is insulting.*

Seems to me to mean exactly what it says.

conditional [kənˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
1. depending on other factors
2. (Linguistics / Grammar) Grammar (of a clause, conjunction, form of a verb, or whole sentence) expressing a condition on which something else is contingent: ``If he comes'' is a conditional clause in the sentence ``If he comes I shall go''

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Then that's a flaw in the children's perception and shouldn't be reinforced by calling parental discipline something it's not. That's like saying "Kids who are put in time out think that time out is neglectful and isolating", therefore let's call this new time-out free discipline "Unneglectful Parenting."









"Hey, we don't put our kids in time out. We practice Unneglectful Parenting." Imagine how that might come across.

I'm sorry? I'm trying really hard to understand what you mean by this, but this comment doesn't make any sense to me at all... *shrug*

Whatever you want to call it though, UP, Unneglectful Parenting, or something else, we're all here trying to follow the same philosophy. So to argue over what it's called (or whether or not it's insulting) is not only silly, but it's a complete waste of time.

Back on topic?


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## Nansense (Jan 5, 2009)

Just putting out to everyone to PLEASE SECURE YOUR TV's and/or STANDS to the wall! My dh is a med-evac pilot and flies about a half dozen kids per year to the emergency room because the tv or entertainment center fell on them. Some kids didn't survive.

And to op...hang in there, we've all been in your shoes, my kids are same age and soooo difficult, but I just keep chugging along as best I can. Some days I am really good and other days not so (quick temper) but I review the situations and give myself some slack to learn from them. (((hugs))))


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Then that's a flaw in the children's perception and shouldn't be reinforced by calling parental discipline something it's not. That's like saying "Kids who are put in time out think that time out is neglectful and isolating", therefore let's call this new time-out free discipline "Unneglectful Parenting."









"Hey, we don't put our kids in time out. We practice Unneglectful Parenting." Imagine how that might come across.

It would probably allay your concerns if you read the book.

Regarding your example, Kohn suggests that what matters more than your intention is how it is received. This is true in every relationship and so important in the parent-child one.

IF your child perceives time-out as neglect or love withdrawal (how Kohn describes it), then you must change that strategy. It will never matter what you intended, because the perception is what will effect your relationship. You can take the 'I'm right' road, or the 'this hurts me more than you' one, but if the child views it as conditional love, and you choose not to address this, then your relationship and their learning and security will suffer.

I imagine there are many adult relationships that terminate for this very reason. UP is essentially about respect and unconditional love is the perception of the child when s/he is respected in all of his/her needs without puinishment or rewards.

I understand your point, but I would be very careful to avoid building up too tall of a strawman; it would be benficial for you to understand the context of Kohn's use of the phrase 'unconditional parenting' in order to understand its meaning. In english, 'context is king', and most anything can be interpretted as an offense if one is taking the perspective that supports that view.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
As for the terminology, it's a pity that the term 'unconditional' can be offensive to some parents, implying that they only love conditionally, but I can't see another way of putting it really, since the unconditionality is the central premise of the whole approach. I do think punishments and rewards convey to the child that the love is conditional, although the parent does not intend that.

I think UP is about changing one's whole mindset, letting go of traditional notions of hierarchy and control, and that takes time, and requires a lot of trust in the process. This is not easy in our results-oriented society and with the whole tide of parenting going distinctly in the opposite direction.

I agree completely.

***

OP, when I read UP, and began to implement the changes that were necessary, my children went nuts. They were nuts for about two months and my dh was ready to start using punishments that we would have found offensive and horrible before starting UP. He felt powerless and that was a symptom of where things were going wrong in the first place. It was our children's arresting of their own innate power that triggered him thinking he'd lost all of his. That is a clear indication that something isn't right.

We didn't ever want to raise our children as powerless people. So, for a while, there was a calibration period- lots of what we would have previously called defiance and rebellion. Our dc had every good reason to rebel; we were incidentally or unintenionally tyrants and they were enjoying the revolution. This is human nature and it will take time for things to balance out so that everyone has full possession of his/her power and dignity.

We make use of non-punitive strategies such as asking an ornery person to take some time in another room to think and calm, unless staying together is better in the moment. We are not perfect either. Sometimes the natural consequence to me not being taken seriously such as when I've told everyone that there's been a lot of noise for a long time and I'm going to need things to quiet down for a while so I can relax from the clatter.

Then if after I've given several clear indications that I cannot handle any more and need it to be quieter, and going to my own room for a while doesn't help (because they come up to the door, for instance), then I can get a bit snippy, or sometimes just break down and cry or yell (which sucks and I hate doing that).

My end of patience is a natural consequence to ignoring my needs, and within my family, even I have to have my needs met. It is not my dc's responsibility to tend to my needs or anything, but there are circumstances wherein when I state them clearly and have patience about what others need as well, my needs do come to the forefront and have to be respected. I am only a human being and have no supernatural abilities to be otherwise when it suits others. My dc learn this too. It is sometimes a harsh reality that mummie isn't all cuddles and kisses and unending patience, but it is a reality that is undeniable.

Punishing wouldn't address this issue, but would certainly add a layer that would obscure it and make it far more difficult to address at any other point.

I felt like giving up in the beginning too, but now after years, it is just as impossible as deciding that I'm going to start feeding my children pop and hotdogs; they are not options amongst the myriad options that do exist for us. Punishment just doesn't figure in. I have a thousand better options to use so that if I were to try to exhaust them and use punishment as a last resort, I'd never actually come to that point.

That said, we are having a hard go of things right now too. I have a dh and at least three dc with adhd with the youngest either also the same or just mimicking, which isn't less work. We just moved and are living in a demo project among other bizarre occurrences in the last few weeks, so stress has been high and UP is a family and life-saver during times of high stress. It would be so easy to default to the punitive ways of our parents otherwise.


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## Materfamilias (Feb 22, 2008)

Originally Posted by Anastasiya
Then that's a flaw in the children's perception and shouldn't be reinforced by calling parental discipline something it's not. That's like saying "Kids who are put in time out think that time out is neglectful and isolating", therefore let's call this new time-out free discipline "Unneglectful Parenting."

"Hey, we don't put our kids in time out. We practice Unneglectful Parenting." Imagine how that might come across.<<<

But the child's perception is Kohn's whole concern here. If the child perceives your love as conditional because of how you choose to parent, then that is what matters. Why would you assume that it's a "flaw" in his/her perception rather than a mistake in your parenting practice? At any rate, you might want to read the book before you render judgment on it.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

bolding mine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
The choice thing works well with my daughter. My son on the other hand...this is how a usual day goes with him.

Me discussing him trying to stand on the glass tv stand and almost having the 42 inch flat screen fall on him....

Me: Lu, that is dangerous. You could get hurt and that would make mommy said. *Do you want to use the remote to turn the channel or would you rather go play with your toys in your room?*

Lucien: Neither.

Me: *Then what would you like to do?*

Lucien: Nothing.

Me: Well you can come sit down with me and have private time.

Lucien: *runs off and 10 minutes later is back standing on it and tipping the large tv.

So then I end up taking him away from the situation, sits him down on the floor near me and he screams until he loses his voice.

I haven't read UP, but here's what I would suggest... Instead of saying "would you like to.....?" Say, "you can either use the remote to change the channel or you can go to your room and play with your toys. Which choice is best for you?" Asking "do you want?" gives him the opportunity to say, "no I don't want to." Giving him choices that you are comfortable with and the opportunity to choose which one is best for him sets clear parimeters and still allows for the choice. If he tries to say "neither" then I think it's appropriate to take him off the glass table (dangerous) and then repeat his options. He may not have chosen either of those options as something he wants to do, but he can still choose which one works best for him in that particular situation. Even as adults we get put in situations where none of the options are what we would have chosen, but we work with them and choose the option that seems best for us in that particular situation.


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## unschoolinmom (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies. I've been reading UP with dh and for the past few days, the kids have really been responding well. We also see things a lot differently. I do chalk most of it up to the fact that I was sick and had no one to take over so that I could rest, which made me very irritable.

Just today, I had to go to the doctors and then to the mall with the kids. Both of these places are always a trial for my 4 year old, but I explained where we were going, what we'd be doing and then asked if they'd like to bring one of their leapfrog toys. They did and used them while I was with the doctors, were quiet and even one person stated to me, "your children are so well behaved! how'd you do it?"

I realized that everytime we went out, my kids were bored and I was trying to force them to do what I wanted for my peace of mind instead of asking if they'd like to have something to do while they wait.

By the time we got to the mall, they put their games in the trunk without a fit, went into the store I needed to go in (even passed the ice cream stand without crying!) and we left! It felt good for all of us.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anastasiya* 
Positive discipline means disciplining positively instead of negatively. No "nos", "don'ts", negative correction, etc. It means what it says; obvious.


I disagree; it isn't obvious. To me, I would have thought it meant either adding as opposed to removing a stimuli from an environment in order to affect a change. Until I read this forum, I would have had no reason to have thought otherwise.

Interesting thread.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *unschoolinmom* 
By the time we got to the mall, they put their games in the trunk without a fit, went into the store I needed to go in (even passed the ice cream stand without crying!) and we left! It felt good for all of us.


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