# I don't want to do Santa, everyone else does?



## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't want my kids to believe in Santa for many reasons. Mainly b/c
1. I don't really see the point of believing in a imaginary person and what type of accomplishment it gives the child anyways
2. I want my kids to know that they got their presents from their mom and dad, grandparents, whoever
3. the disappointment when they find out there is no santa and how they just realized that their parents lied to them the entire time, I would think this would hurt a trusting relationship
4. I don't think I could play along with it for very long and would slip up and therefore ruin it for my kids

These are just a few of the reasons. My dh on other hand thinks I am crazy that I don't want my kids to believe in santa. I really don't see the point as to why this is important for a child? I was taught to believe in santa although I stopped when I was 4 b/c I thought it was crazy that an invisible man climbed down my chimney and delivered presents?? I'm not really wanting to teach them to believe in anything as far easter bunny, etc. I just really don't see the point?? Am I alone here? Anyone else have conflicting opinions on this, and if so, how did you deal?


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I don't do santa for all the reasons you listed. DH was resisted at first but that;s what everyone else does, but when we really discussed it, he also has not so fond memories of finding out who santa really was. Our oldest is almost 6 and is fine with not doing santa, she is also a very literal child, she doesn't get imagining or pretending that well so I''m glad that we never did it with her. I can see that if we did, that the discovery of truth would not go well with her knowing her personality.


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

We're just saying that Santa is a game. She seemed really scared at the thought of a man dressed up in red coming into our house and delivering presents...even a pretend or cartoon man.
she said "Well, mommy, I don't think we're going to have a santa here"
"Why not?"
eyes wide... "Because I think it will be too scary"!
That answers that!
For me, it's mostly the lying and deceiving thing.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Same boat here. My IL's don't know yet that I don't want to do Santa, but DH and I have been butting heads over it the last few days. It is so frustrating....I just don't understand how he doesn't get the simplicity of: "I don't want to lie to my children." That's the bottom line, really. But he thinks that I am like a scrooge or something, trying to steal the magic right out of our children's lives.









And what really doesn't help is all those Santa commercials that are coming on, like the one with the little kid scolding his dad for eating the Santa cookies. "DAD! Those are for Santa!" So the dad has the son help him bake more, and of course my dh is like: "See? See how great that is? Leaving cookies and milk for Santa and then there can be a bite taken out of a couple when ds wakes up in the morning." Yadda yadda. I just really don't see myself carrying it out that far, and like you OP, I know I will probably slip up and let the truth be known....

Ugh. I'm trying to find a way to meet him in the middle, but it's proving to be quite difficult.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

I am with you 100%! How did the tradition of lying to your kids (so that you can laugh at them behind their backs and hang it over their heads/threaten them with it, in some cases) and let their hearts get broken start in the first place?? But DH went ahead with it anyway. I wonder if maybe I can somehow talk to DD about it being a fun tradition to pretend (she does understand pretending) and explain that DH likes to pretend with her??

ETA: My parents never did it with me, and I really respect them for that. I do wonder if my dad never really wanted to go that route though; he still makes some presents for us "from Santa" all these years later!


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

doing santa doesn't directly translate into lying to your kids and your kids having broken hearts. i think forcing the santa belief can do that.. but the idea of santa alone doesn't. we believed in santa.. but most of our presents were still from my parents.. and all of the presents from other relatives were from whoever gave them to me... how does a picture with santa, leaving cookies on the table, and reading the night before christmas add but to lying and broken hearts?


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

and laughing at them and threatening them? seriously? thats got nothing to do with santa and everything to do with what kind of person someone is.


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

Telling them Santa is going to fly with reindeer to your house and slide down the chimney to leave presents isn't lying to them? They don't get their hearts broken when they find out this was all a sham and their parents lied to them?










She thinks Santa is going to get her letter, isn't that cute? (snicker) Do that and Santa won't come, Do that and Santa won't leave presents. Yeah, pretty common.

I said, "in some cases". I was asking how the tradition got started, anyway. Not saying everyone tortures their kids with it.


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## Graeme's Ma (Jul 31, 2008)

I've been trying to decide which route to go with the santa thing too for your same reasons. My biggest question for those who don't play santa for their kids is what do they tell other kids who do believe? I wouldn't want ds to ruin it for others, but I have no idea how to explain the whole deal to him. How do I explain that it's all a bunch of nonsense, but prevent him from spilling the beans to his friends? Luckily he's only 6 1/2 mos old and I have plenty of time to figure it all out...


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

telling them santa is going to fly down the chimney and leave them presents is not harmful in and of itself and isn't really any different then reading the night before christmas and when they ask if its true saying 'anything is possible"... if you push it like crazy and go out of your way to convince them that it is true then its weird and creepy. and using santa as blackmail is creepy too.

i think it is possible for santa to be a completely harmless and fun part of a holiday... the creepy pushing, excessive lying, and blackmail doesn't have to be a part of it.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Graeme's Ma* 
I've been trying to decide which route to go with the santa thing too for your same reasons. My biggest question for those who don't play santa for their kids is what do they tell other kids who do believe? I wouldn't want ds to ruin it for others, but I have no idea how to explain the whole deal to him. How do I explain that it's all a bunch of nonsense, but prevent him from spilling the beans to his friends? Luckily he's only 6 1/2 mos old and I have plenty of time to figure it all out...

why explain unless he asks? i think by 8 or 9 i knew i santa wasn't real.. and the only time i remember asking my mom asked me what i thought. lol i plan on being non committal one way or the other.. but mine is 10 mos old so i have time too lol


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







doing santa doesn't directly translate into lying to your kids and your kids having broken hearts. i think forcing the santa belief can do that.. but the idea of santa alone doesn't. we believed in santa.. but most of our presents were still from my parents.. and all of the presents from other relatives were from whoever gave them to me... how does a picture with santa, leaving cookies on the table, and reading the night before christmas add but to lying and broken hearts?

I often see examples in our society of how people use the concept of Santa to coerce their kids into "being good." I want no part of that, but I've already heard those words come out of my dh's mouth, and ds is only 2.







:

Of course there's no harm in reading the night before Christmas, you have a point there. But I still see labeling presents from Santa and making cookies for him as a lie. Even in a very mild form, that's what it is. It just doesn't sit well with me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
I wonder if maybe I can somehow talk to DD about it being a fun tradition to pretend (she does understand pretending) and explain that DH likes to pretend with her??


Hmm. I like this idea.







But it would have to be when he's older. Maybe I can somehow manage to keep my mouth shut til then...

Not sure what to make of this really - it does bother me, but at the same time, it doesn't seem worthy of being a hill to die on. Trust me, there are plenty of other things that dh and I disagree on in terms of parenting, so I might try to play along for this. But if and when ds asks me outright, you'd better believe I'm telling him the truth.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

the other thing is that forcing the santa thing can lead to a lot of lying if you let it... i mean kids aren't stupid the odds of the same old guy in a red suit being at every mall in the country, in commercials, in movies, and ringing a bell on the sidewalk ... not to mention being several different races and having very different beards and heights... are pretty much nil... and this isn't something that is just sprung on them ya know?

telling you kids every tom dick and harry in a red suit is jolly and wants to give them presents is lying and dangerous... we were never told that... and i think knowing that people dress up as santa is on of the steps to understanding that santa isn't a real person... lying to kids about things like this can certainly be damaging and heartbreaking.


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## reece19 (May 21, 2008)

We never did Santa, mostly bc I didn't want to lie to the kids. My parents refused to lie to me about Santa, and as someone above stated...I respect them for that.

We do, however, do Santa as a spirit of the season thing. We give gifts from Santa, now that the girls are old enough to understand that is just a fun thing to do and the gifts are really from me or grandma, etc.

I don't think they have missed out on anything by not believing, and I think they appreciate that I haven't lied to them.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i also agree that people use santa as coercion... but people do a lot of things.. that doesn't mean you have to do it.

and like i said you don't have to push it or even make it a focus. we got gifts from santa.. and i collected tea sets so i got a tea set from mrs. clause every year... but my parents didn't get gifts from santa.. and we got gifts from my parents and for my parents.. and my brother and i got gifts for each other. we did gift exchanges at school and at girl scouts.. we adopted a family every year.. and things in our stockings were sometimes obviously from my parents..

i mean how would you adopt a family and push the santa thing? tell them santa doesn't like poor people? oo.. and we didn't have a chimney lol... so that part didn't really apply to us... but i wasn't terribly concerned about it yk?

i think it is possible to do santa in a fun non psychologically damaging way... that doesn't involve sneaking and lying.. the most sneaking my parents ever did was put presents out after we went to bed.. which we knew b/c we could hear them lol


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## InchByInch (Aug 2, 2008)

We're also avoiding the Santa fable at our house, for several reasons.

First, we want the focus of Christmas to be what it's really all about-- celebrating the birth of Christ. The whole "be good and you'll get lots of presents" tack leaves much to be desired, IMHO.

Second, I want my kids to know about St. Nicholas instead, and from the get-go (he's the real-life basis for Santa Claus-- see www.stnicholascenter.org for more info, if you're interested). This was the first year my kids were old enough to celebrate St. Nicholas Day, and they loved it!

Third, *I* was raised to believe in Santa, and I felt tremendously hurt and betrayed when the truth was revealed to me. I realize some kids find out and bounce back, no problem, but I, personally, was crushed; and I have no desire to blindly hope that my kids will be of the temperament that tolerates it just fine.

Now, of course, the Santa image is everywhere, and my kids already 'know' him by name (The Polar Express is a favorite video here)! That's fine-- Santa's not a bad word in this house. But the approach I take (largely gleaned from a great letter to the editor I once read in Mothering) is that Santa is a fun pretend game that adults like to play, too-- just like any other game or fantasy one might have about a character. And in this way, we can have all the fun of pretending he's real (if that's what they want to do), but it'll never be claimed that yes, he's the genuine article and exists the way we do.

Hope all that blathering makes sense... it's way late here, and I gotta go to bed...


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think it makes total sense! you can enjoy santa and have fun pretending he is real without signing a blood oath to that effect. and we always did st. nick too.. i like the shoes thing.







we learned that was where the idea of santa came from.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Hey, my kids have never had Santa or any other magical folks visit the house... and they are turning out fine. Naturally, my parents and siblings all thought I was some sort of huge spoilsport. Too bad, that just convinced me to do our best traveling as a family at that "holiday" time of year. I can tell you that San Francisco, Memphis,New Orleans, Tuscon, Charleston, Huntsville, Ft.Lauderdale and many other American cities are awesome with their their twinkly lights on.

Living a good life that is up to your standards is the best way to go. Don't worry so much about others.


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## lovelymom79 (Dec 19, 2008)

For my side, I dont do Santa but my Hubby will do







I think it really depends on the age of your kids and your own background if you want to do it or nor. For me its worth because we make our kids a joy.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

We do Santa for the following reasons:

1. A lot of kids LIKE magical beliefs in their lives. When they're 4-6, they invent their own magical ideas anyway. I don't see believing in Santa any worse than believing in fairies or elves or other magical creatures not associated with Christmas.

My kids are very into fantasy play and magic. Heck, ds is 7 and pretending that the angel with the wand in our nativity set can do magic, why not Santa?

And honestly, flying airplanes and flying reindeer are equally plausible to a 3 year old mind, I think.

2. It's possible to do Santa without the 'if you're good, you'll get presents, if you're bad you won't'. I just never introduced that concept. It wasn't even deliberate on my part, it just didn't occur to me. Once I thought about it, I kept it up because I didn't want to introduce that element. My kids get presents from Santa. Period. I don't add the stress of having to be good.

3. It's possible to do a low-key Santa. Santa is pretty low key in our house. They know that they also get presents from relatives. They're grateful for what they get. We go to church. We celebrate the religious holiday as much as the secular.

4. I was never traumatized by learning the "truth" about Santa. Ds wasn't traumatized by learning the truth this summer. He asked me if I was Santa. I asked him what he thought. He told me he thought I was Santa. I said he was right. Then he asked why I did it, and I replied that it was fun to pretend.

After I learned the truth, I still insisted that "Santa" come because I LIKED waking up to the excitement of presents on Christmas morning. I knew the gifts were from my parents. My parents knew I knew, and we continued the tradition by mutual agreement. (And because "Santa" didn't wrap presents, but mom and dad did, so Mom didn't want to wrap all those gifts!)

5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leila1213* 
Telling them Santa is going to fly with reindeer to your house and slide down the chimney to leave presents isn't lying to them? They don't get their hearts broken when they find out this was all a sham and their parents lied to them?









She thinks Santa is going to get her letter, isn't that cute? (snicker) Do that and Santa won't come, Do that and Santa won't leave presents. Yeah, pretty common.

I said, "in some cases". I was asking how the tradition got started, anyway. Not saying everyone tortures their kids with it.

I'm sure a handful of people torture theier children with Santa. But they presumably also torture their children in lots of other ways. You don't need Santa in order to be mean to children and laugh at them. (Try, for example, that Youtube video of the family giving their kid the xbox gift that turned out to be winter clothes and laughing at him. As far as I recall, they didn't even mention Santa. They were just plain mean people.)

I am insulted by the suggestion, made not just by you, but over and over here on the boards, every year, that those of us who do Santa are snickering and tormenting our children.

When my kids find out that Santa is not real, I will sit down with them, and lovingly, honestly, tell them the truth and why I did Santa. Because I think it is a lovely, magical tradition that would bring them joy. Because it brought me joy as a child. If they end up resentful of the fact that I did it, that's sad, but I did my best. Who knows, if you don't do Santa, your child may end up resentful of the fact that she missed out on Santa because you had your own view on not lying to her.

That's the thing. None of us know, but we are all doing our best. My belief is that if you have a strong relationship, whether or not you do Santa will most likely become irrelevant in the scheme of things. If you have a poor one, your kid will probably resent you, no matter whether you did it or not. Or you might just get it wrong.

But we are all doing our best, and I have yet to meet a parent who does Santa in order to torment or snicker at their child. And almost everyone I know does Santa, so that's a lot of people.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
I often see examples in our society of how people use the concept of Santa to coerce their kids into "being good." I want no part of that, but I've already heard those words come out of my dh's mouth, and ds is only 2.







:

Of course there's no harm in reading the night before Christmas, you have a point there. But I still see labeling presents from Santa and making cookies for him as a lie. Even in a very mild form, that's what it is. It just doesn't sit well with me.

Hmm. I like this idea.







But it would have to be when he's older. Maybe I can somehow manage to keep my mouth shut til then...

Not sure what to make of this really - it does bother me, but at the same time, it doesn't seem worthy of being a hill to die on. Trust me, there are plenty of other things that dh and I disagree on in terms of parenting, so I might try to play along for this. But if and when ds asks me outright, you'd better believe I'm telling him the truth.


There are many of us who most certainly tell our children the truth when they ask outright. In fact, I don't know of any parents who wouldn't do just that. And, as I said, I don't know of anyone who coerces their child using Santa.

I think it is easy to take the minority, unpleasant parenting abuse of Santa and turn it in your mind to being 'How Santa is done by the majority', but ime that is not the case. Anyone I know does Santa with no strings attached, and plans to be truthful when their child talks to them about it. That, ime, is the norm. The model of horrible parents bribing their kids to be good, putting coal in stockings, or lying to their 12 year old to persuade him that Santa truly exists is not one that I've ever seen. But maybe I just mix in different circles.


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

It bugged me a lot before we had a kid that DW would say to me that getting your kid to believe in Santa was lying and that she wouldn't be a part of it. I have zero memories of it being traumatic to me as a kid. I have many memories of Christmas and Santa being wonderful and many more memories of helping my father "be" Santa with my younger siblings.

Now that we're in it as reality, I think DW would let me do Santa if I want to...and I'm not sure what I will do. But that's because I feel pretty strongly about raising my daughter as an atheist, and I'm not sure how it will jive to tell her to believe something that is based on "faith" while also encouraging her to question everything around her at the same time.

But anyway. I'd like to reiterate that this is probably very hurtful to your DH.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
i think it makes total sense! you can enjoy santa and have fun pretending he is real without signing a blood oath to that effect. and we always did st. nick too.. i like the shoes thing.







we learned that was where the idea of santa came from.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
We do Santa for the following reasons:

1. A lot of kids LIKE magical beliefs in their lives. When they're 4-6, they invent their own magical ideas anyway. I don't see believing in Santa any worse than believing in fairies or elves or other magical creatures not associated with Christmas.

My kids are very into fantasy play and magic. Heck, ds is 7 and pretending that the angel with the wand in our nativity set can do magic, why not Santa?

And honestly, flying airplanes and flying reindeer are equally plausible to a 3 year old mind, I think.

2. It's possible to do Santa without the 'if you're good, you'll get presents, if you're bad you won't'. I just never introduced that concept. It wasn't even deliberate on my part, it just didn't occur to me. Once I thought about it, I kept it up because I didn't want to introduce that element. My kids get presents from Santa. Period. I don't add the stress of having to be good.

3. It's possible to do a low-key Santa. Santa is pretty low key in our house. They know that they also get presents from relatives. They're grateful for what they get. We go to church. We celebrate the religious holiday as much as the secular.

4. I was never traumatized by learning the "truth" about Santa. Ds wasn't traumatized by learning the truth this summer. He asked me if I was Santa. I asked him what he thought. He told me he thought I was Santa. I said he was right. Then he asked why I did it, and I replied that it was fun to pretend.

After I learned the truth, I still insisted that "Santa" come because I LIKED waking up to the excitement of presents on Christmas morning. I knew the gifts were from my parents. My parents knew I knew, and we continued the tradition by mutual agreement. (And because "Santa" didn't wrap presents, but mom and dad did, so Mom didn't want to wrap all those gifts!)

5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.


ITA with both of these. We "do" Santa, but in a very low key, NONpunitive or manipulative way. There is no "you'd better watch out", naughty/nice/creepy stalker crap. We tell the kids flat out that the men in Santa suits in the mall are not Santa..and with other questions/discussions, we're vague and kind of ask what they (well, he, the almost 5 yo - the 2-1/2 yr old is still too young) think, and preface statements and discussions with, "some people believe" or, "that's what they say"...things that keep it going, but are not us shoveling it down their throats or using it to secure "good" behavior. We've talked about the spirit of Santa Claus, and how anybody can be Santa by being kind and generous...we did a givign tree at DS's PreK and talked about us being Santa for the child we gave the gift for.

I asked my mom if Santa was real when I was 6, and she was honest with me. And I STILL get a present from Santa every year...knowing he isn't a person who is actually alive today didn't take any of the fun out of it, nor did I feel betrayed (probably because my parents didn't do it in a manipulative way either).

I think it's totally in how you approach it, not necessarily whether you do it or not. You can keep it about the spirit of Santa and the magic, or you can turn it into something ugly and manipulative...but not everyone who 'does' Santa does it the latter way.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

We do not do a real santa either. I know people irl that do not as well as on here.
My one friends reasoning was that she was a chronic liar growing up. She lied to the point she believed her own lies. She does not want to have that kind of relationship with her kids, and she does not want to go back to who she used to be.

I had a really hard time looking my daughter in the eyes and saying "yes dd, there is santa", knowing there is not. I guess for me it is about un-truths.
I also dont feel like she needs to believe there is man who knows when she is sleeping, awake, good, bad. That is creepy.
I also hate when people ask her if she has been good, because santa wont bring her presents if she is bad.







that annoys me.
I have lots of reasons







all of them are valid.

DD gets a stocking, its from '







santa', knows she cannot go around telling other peoples kids there is not a santa. She is allowed her opinion though.
I have been accused of killing all the magic in her childhood








I can see she is growing up just fine, she has a healthy sense of wonder, lots of imagination and still loves christmas even though we are not big on LOTS of presents either, we also are not religious. For us christmas is a celebration of family and winter. We celebrate with decorations, gatherings, giving to others less fortunate, and baking and eating special foods.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovelymom79* 
For my side, I dont do Santa but my Hubby will do







I think it really depends on the age of your kids and your own background if you want to do it or nor. For me its worth because we make our kids a joy.

Thats interesting. How do you make that work?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

They don't get their hearts broken when they find out this was all a sham and their parents lied to them?
Wow, that's dramatic.

We do Santa in our family, and we do Santa the way it was done in my family growing up.

Santa brings one present and fills a stocking.
Santa is not a threat and doesn't care if you're "bad" or "good." He certainly isn't watching when you sleep because that is CREEPY.
No one is sitting anyone down and telling anyone, OK kid, you've been at this long enough, it's all a sham.
Certainly we're not laughing at our kids.
When you figure out that Santa isn't literal, you get to "be Santa" for someone else. This can mean helping to fill stockings, going on top secret Santa shopping (or crafting) trips, helping with the milk and cookies, choosing gifts for another family or helping raise funds to make a donation.

Santa isn't a literal guy but a nice thing we do for each other in the spirit of giving anonomously.

More thoughts on this, kid needing me just now.


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

My oldest brother broke the news to me about Santa, the Easter Bunny and all the rest when I was about three, so grew up with none of that. I was fine with it, though one year my parents did make little "elf" tracks in some flour on the counter, and that was kind of fun.

I remember thinking my friend sounded like such an idiot, when, at the age of 7 or 8 she was saying to me "I know it doesn't make sense, but the _handwriting_ on the package is not my mom or dads!" I remember just feeling bad and embarassed for her.

We're just going to keep it like a game, but not pretend its really real.


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## marie1080 (Aug 5, 2006)

OP, I agree with the reasons you listed. We don't do Santa here. DD has asked about the guy in the red suit at the store- we tell her that he is a pretend guy from a story.

She's perfectly excited and happy about Christmas. She knows that there are presents in the stockings and that we all put them in there for each other. She is having a wonderful time helping mommy wrap presents. She enjoys playing with the ornaments on the tree and her nativity set. We are Christian and she knows that Christmas is about Baby Jesus. I don't think she's missing out on anything







I just don't see what 'Santa' could add to the holidays for our family.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

We just never introduced Santa, the concept just wasn't there for the kids until they were old enough to pick it up from the environment. Then when they asked (kind of like 'where do babies come from' lol!) we explained the true story of Saint Nick. Christmas was always just....Christmas. We did presents because the three wise men brought presents to baby Jesus...and it was entrenched with the idea that we take presents to others, not we get presents.

Good luck. It was never an issue with my dh, he was raised the same way. Lucky for us


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

ds is eleven months old and I'm still trying to figure this out. I have very fond memories of my mother doing Santa for me and of doing Santa fior my older kids, but I don't think I want to go back to square one with this little boy.

Since I chose to have him instead of nice, comfortable, middle-class aspirations, it's pretty much a given that I won't have as much money to spend on toys; I'd hate for ds to look at pictures of his siblings and think they were "better" than him because they got more toys.

Also, tbh, this first year of his life has beebn so much less stressful and more enjoyable with LESS STUFF! ds owns a single drawerful of clothes (no horrendous searches for matching socks in the morning) and three nice wooden toys we found in the back of the closet (no endless battles about picking them up) so I'm not sure I'd really want to destroy that with a return to consumeristic standards I already know I can't live up to.

We're going for the middle ground this year: Santa is the spirit of Christmas and a fun game Bubba and Sissy and I play and ds can play too. I'm only doing stockings this yeasr and ds will get up with me in the middle of the night to stuff the bitg kids' stockings. We're just going to include him in what we already have.

somehow i missed all these santa discussions on mdc in previous years so i'm not burnt out on them yet and actually really appreciatew everyone's honesty and different viewpoints. i love anonymous gifts (but understand why not everybody does) but hate the idea of ds thinking that Santa is going to bring him an Xbox because he'as been good all year and then waking up to a stick of gum and a dollar food stamp in his stocking.

Do you think DH might be agreeable to something similar? If KD had told me he didn't want me doing Santa, i probably would have kept right on looking for another donor instead of trying to sort out just WHY I love the tradition so much and how it can be adapted to the reality of our current nontraditional circumstances.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i can see where it would be harmful if christmas was based completely around santa... like we did santa... but like pp said lowkey... i went to catholic school so we didn't do santa in school.. we did saint nick and the birth of jesus.. and at home we read the night before christmas and the polar express and all... and got stockings and some presents from santa... but the point of christmas was that jesus was born.. and to celebrate his birth.. (we made him a bday cake) and christmas is about giving and spending time with people you love.... so most of our traditions had nothing to do with santa.

maybe this is why i feel like its harmless and not a major lie that will forever break the hearts of unsuspecting children. if christmas is based entirely around santa and then you find out he's not real then i can see where that would be traumatizing.. esp. because your not just losing santa yk?


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## brightonwoman (Mar 27, 2007)

I think a lot of pp's have basically said the same thing...
I don't like telling kids to believe in santa, but i also don't think it's possible to totally avoid him (displays in stores etc). I think you have to give your kids some explanation for santa...so I tell them about Saint Nicolas (that link a pp gave is a great one). I explain that over time the stories have changed, but that it's about loving and giving and caring for others, and Santa is a personification of that. I look at him as a reminder or what *I* can do, rather than a real guy


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## angie7 (Apr 23, 2007)

Thanks everyone for your honest opinions. I tried to talk to my dh again last nite and it was the same thing "I'm ruining their fun and their imaginations"







He said he would go along with me on whatever I wanted to do but he made me feel guilty so I agreed to do santa but I will not go crazy about it and more then likely I will tell them he is a pretend man







My mom will be upset, she already thinks I'm horrible b/c I don't get their pictures taken with santa either









I can't do the religious meaning behind it as I am atheist and my dh is agnostic leaning towards atheist. Xmas to us is just a time for family and to show appreciation to each other.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

We'll have Santa, but I will tell my child what my folks told me... That Santa is the spirit of giving that is inside of us—and anyone can be Santa. But I won't ever pressure my children to sit on a Santa's lap. My folks did that to me at a mall when I was five. I was terrified and saw through it.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
ITA with both of these. We "do" Santa, but in a very low key, NONpunitive or manipulative way. There is no "you'd better watch out", naughty/nice/creepy stalker crap. We tell the kids flat out that the men in Santa suits in the mall are not Santa..and with other questions/discussions, we're vague and kind of ask what they (well, he, the almost 5 yo - the 2-1/2 yr old is still too young) think, and preface statements and discussions with, "some people believe" or, "that's what they say"...things that keep it going, but are not us shoveling it down their throats or using it to secure "good" behavior. We've talked about the spirit of Santa Claus, and how anybody can be Santa by being kind and generous...we did a givign tree at DS's PreK and talked about us being Santa for the child we gave the gift for.

I asked my mom if Santa was real when I was 6, and she was honest with me. And I STILL get a present from Santa every year...knowing he isn't a person who is actually alive today didn't take any of the fun out of it, nor did I feel betrayed (probably because my parents didn't do it in a manipulative way either).

I think it's totally in how you approach it, not necessarily whether you do it or not. You can keep it about the spirit of Santa and the magic, or you can turn it into something ugly and manipulative...but not everyone who 'does' Santa does it the latter way.

This. I totally agree with everything here. I think that it is up to the parents though, and that inlaws and others shouldn't give you a hard time over whether you decide to do it or not. It is sad that some call those of us who do it lyers and it is sad that people think that just because you choose not to do santa that the children will have no magic in their lives.


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
This. I totally agree with everything here. I think that it is up to the parents though, and that inlaws and others shouldn't give you a hard time over whether you decide to do it or not. It is sad that some call those of us who do it lyers and it is sad that people think that just because you choose not to do santa that the children will have no magic in their lives.









:

ds1 wants to do "Santa is really real" and has some compelling arguments so I guess I'll be back to the debate threads next year, but ultimately it is the parents' decision and other family members need to respect it.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

*First, let me just say that we don't really "do" santa either. My kids know he is pretend, and we just play it like a game.*

That said...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie7* 
1. I don't really see the point of believing in a imaginary person and what type of accomplishment it gives the child anyways

Believing in something as crazy as santa stretches our minds and imaginations. Imagining is good fun. Finally, not everything has to have a purpose.

Quote:

2. I want my kids to know that they got their presents from their mom and dad, grandparents, whoever
One valuable thing that "santa" does, I think, is to remind us of the value of giving without being recognized. Of the value of giving just for the sheer joy of doing it without expectation.

Yes, I want my kids to know who gave them their presents so they can write thank yous, etc....but when it comes down to stuff I give them...if anything, santa is my reminder of the real meaning of giving.

Quote:

3. the disappointment when they find out there is no santa and how they just realized that their parents lied to them the entire time, I would think this would hurt a trusting relationship
Again, with my own kids, I've always been honest. But to tell you the truth, my parents let me and my siblings believe in santa, and by the time we found out, we were pretty much done with it anyway. It was a memorable event, but not too terribly traumatic for me...and it gave me the opportunity in joining older siblings in taking part in being "santa" for the younger. I got to get in on the fun, and that was cool.

Quote:

4. I don't think I could play along with it for very long and would slip up and therefore ruin it for my kids
That's fair enough. Again, in our house we just tell the kids, "let's play pretend" when we do santa. Seems to have been a good balance.

This topic has been discussed extensively here on MDC...you can do a search on the topic and will find a wide variety of opinions.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

You're not alone.

We don't do Santa at all in our house. To me, he's a little game that some find fun to play, but I have no emotions invested in playing it. To dh, the "santa thing" is an abomination and a symptom of a-religious, consumeristic American baccanalian frenzies of excess at this time of year (just his humble opinion, of course







). So, no Santa.

For us Christmas is about Jesus only. We (especially dh) feel like the Santa thing detracts from that a lot, so we skip it.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Your not alone I dont see the point either and with dd it came up and I just told her he was make believe. With ds who is 4 now has no earthly idea who santa is when a nurse asked him if he was ready for santa to come he looked at her like she had 2 heads. The only santa he has ever been exposed to is on tv.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
This. I totally agree with everything here. I think that it is up to the parents though, and that inlaws and others shouldn't give you a hard time over whether you decide to do it or not. It is sad that some call those of us who do it lyers and it is sad that people think that just because you choose not to do santa that the children will have no magic in their lives.

I dont think people are calling people who 'do' santa liars.
For me when I talk about this subject, I have no other way to reword telling my daughter something that is untrue. Its a lie, and the word is lie.No other word fits what I am trying to say. Its a fine line I guess, but when I say telling dd santa real is a 'lie', I in no way think other people are liars for letting thier kids believe, nor do I judge them.

If you can think of a better word, feel free to post it.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

My parents "did" Santa, but we always knew the gift was from our parents - same paper, same handwritting, it wasn't too hard to figure out. My mom always talked about Santa more as the embodiment of the "magic of the season," the love and kindness and good feelings and all that. I like that approach.

SIL, however, is hell-bent on threatening my 2-year-old into her ideal of "good behavior" using/abusing Santa. Even after we told her we're not doing things that way.

I hate using Santa as a threat. I hate lying to my kid/s about something that could so easily be used as a reminder of the real reason for the season. I hate the emphasis placed on the mythological character-turned Coke marketing ploy.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

My DH and I had an arguement over this the other day. His family does an elaborate scheme for Santa. His father calls the kids on Christmas Eve (or has a friend call them) to tell them he is coming. The they set up a video camera on the tree. Late that night when he puts out the presents he puts a black piece of fabric over the camera lense, right before the last present is put out he puts on a white glove and removes the fabric so all the kids see is a hand in a white glove putting out the last present. Then he (or the friend) calls Christmas afternoon to see how the kids like the gifts "he" put out.

My family however, never did Santa. I remember from a really young age helping Mom wrap gifts. We left out a plate of cookies for "Santa" which we all knew was Dad and Mom when they laid everything under the tree. None of the gifts were from Santa either, they were all from Mom/Dad/brothers.

I don't mind her pretending there is a Santa but I don't want her told hes real. I REALLY REALLY don't like when my husband started telling her she needed to be good because Santa is coming (thats what the agrument was over). Honestly, I don't think she is ever truely "bad" and I don't like my husband saying shes being bad and Santa isn't going to bring her gifts: 1) shes not bad, shes a toddler and 2) no matter what shes getting the gifts). I also want her to know the true meaning of Christmas and have her attention on the birth of Christ, Not on some mythical character.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
And what really doesn't help is all those Santa commercials that are coming on, like the one with the little kid scolding his dad for eating the Santa cookies. "DAD! Those are for Santa!" So the dad has the son help him bake more,...

That very commercial is what got to my son. Not me, who was raised without the Santa lie (we played with it as a myth, but I was way too skittish b/c of my parents' relationship to EVER come close to being OK with a man breaking into our house in the middle of the night), not hubby who is totally fine with no Santa, but my son.

We were driving somewhere a day or so after, and he piped up with "Santa is real, you know. I didn't know Santa before, but now I do. He's really real."








:

Now we don't even celebrate xmas, we do Yule, and we had been playing with the funny idea of a Yule Fairy. If you ask DS who the Yule Fairy is, he points to me, LOL. But Santa, augh.

So we had Yule today and we did have YF gifts (he thanked me) and two Santa gifts (one jacket that he KNEW came from us b/c he was there when we bought it) and one present from Disneyland that could only have come from me on my solo day there, but still, Santa is getting the credit. I'm charting new, unexpected territory, because I never EVER expected him to just randomly decide that he believes in something we had previously discussed very honestly (meaning, we said he was a fun thing some people believe in).

And I also never expected that I would sort of go along with it. He has a tremendous imagination and it's so much fun, and it seemed odd that I don't smash his belief in a very odd make-believe friend who wears old Japanese clothing (name = Hamber Codger) but wanted to explain clearly that Santa isn't real.... But no one is coming up to him in public asking him if Hamber Codger is going to come overnight and leave presents for him... no one is making ads about making cookies for HC, etc etc etc.... So he has an expectation based on the world around him, and so I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. If I don't go along with the world, because he has this belief, he'll feel sad that "Santa" ignored him on Yule, but in order to not go along with his expectation, I feel that I would have to smash this part of his fun imagination.

I think next year we're going to have to refocus things....


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Santa is a fun part of Christmas for us. Dd is 6 and she is starting to logically come the conclusion herself that he is not real, but still not this year. We talk a lot about giving and helping others and that the spirit of Christmas can continue throughout the year. No coercion here, but then we are a gentle disciple family and there is no coercion about *anything* for anyone. Dd will get a special gift (unwrapped) under the tree on Christmas morning. She got a letter from Santa (I even put it in the mail) and she was THRILLED about it. Santa helps make the season magical. It was for me as a child and it is for her. We are very, very close and I know her well enough to know that her reaction when she finds out he isn't real is that she will be fine with it and want to continue the tradition. She just enjoys all things fantastical. We really love magic in our house and, while dd is pragmatic and knows it isn't real, we enjoy stories about fairies and trolls and elves and sorcerers and wizards, etc. She knows it isn't lying, it's just good clean fun.

When she does find out, I will do what I do for every question she asks... answer it honestly and explain that Nicolas was once a very generous, real man a very long time ago that was made a saint by the christians and all the other stories of old about him.


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## Triniity (Jul 15, 2007)

Here in europe there is no "Santa" in a lot of homes, we do have a little "christchild" (I am not sure if you have an english word for it







). Santa is such an american thing









we do have this other one, though, but I think it´s not such a big thing, we don´t take stuff out for him or anything. and you usually know by age three or four that your parents are doing it, because it´s plain obvious, the "child" is coming on christmas eve while everybody is still awake, the children have to go to their rooms and you hear your parents preparing the presents under the tree. and than there is a little bell, and you know you are allowed into the living room.

i personally can´t even remember when I found out that there is nothing like that, or no st.nickolas (we do him as well







) even though my parents did the secret stuff. I do love it and I am so egoistic that I do for my pure joy! I love magical stuff and I love pretending. I will continue doing it until my children beg me to stop!


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

We don't do santa. I don't hide him from the kids. How can you? DD is 3 and ds is 1. I tell dd that Santa is just a man dressed in a red suit. It is mommy and daddy that give the gifts. Santa is just a story that is fun. I make sure she knows not to tell others the secret that santa is not real.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
I dont think people are calling people who 'do' santa liars.
For me when I talk about this subject, I have no other way to reword telling my daughter something that is untrue. Its a lie, and the word is lie.No other word fits what I am trying to say. Its a fine line I guess, but when I say telling dd santa real is a 'lie', I in no way think other people are liars for letting thier kids believe, nor do I judge them.

If you can think of a better word, feel free to post it.

I think you may have missed a post or two. So someone who is lying is not a liar then, is that what you are saying? If you can think of a better conclusion, feel free to post it.


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

when my DD#1 was born, I swore that I wouldn't do santa, but last year, she asked for santa to come... she saw him at the mall, saw him in movies and wanted to know if he was coming. So, santa came. She asked for one gift (color wonder paper) and I surprised her with a stocking. This year, she had me write him a (long) list and we went to the mall and gave it to him. once again, she asked for very inexpensive items and I was happy to get her everything on her list, (even if it was a little challenging to find a pink hotwheels car)

I am following her lead. I think it's fun to have this magical time with my DD and when she's finished with it, we will either keep up the magic with her baby sister or whatever she (DD#2) wants... I don't feel like it is lying. I have said many times that santa is just pretend like the little mermaid or dora, even though we have met the little mermaid and dora, I think she has the idea that they are people dressed up in costumes. sorry for the ramble.

anyway, I'll say the same thing I say for co-sleeping, babywearing and extended BFing/CLW; you have to do what's right for you and your family, whatever that may be.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
We do Santa for the following reasons:

1. A lot of kids LIKE magical beliefs in their lives. When they're 4-6, they invent their own magical ideas anyway. I don't see believing in Santa any worse than believing in fairies or elves or other magical creatures not associated with Christmas.

My kids are very into fantasy play and magic. Heck, ds is 7 and pretending that the angel with the wand in our nativity set can do magic, why not Santa?

And honestly, flying airplanes and flying reindeer are equally plausible to a 3 year old mind, I think.

2. It's possible to do Santa without the 'if you're good, you'll get presents, if you're bad you won't'. I just never introduced that concept. It wasn't even deliberate on my part, it just didn't occur to me. Once I thought about it, I kept it up because I didn't want to introduce that element. My kids get presents from Santa. Period. I don't add the stress of having to be good.

3. It's possible to do a low-key Santa. Santa is pretty low key in our house. They know that they also get presents from relatives. They're grateful for what they get. We go to church. We celebrate the religious holiday as much as the secular.

4. I was never traumatized by learning the "truth" about Santa. Ds wasn't traumatized by learning the truth this summer. He asked me if I was Santa. I asked him what he thought. He told me he thought I was Santa. I said he was right. Then he asked why I did it, and I replied that it was fun to pretend.

After I learned the truth, I still insisted that "Santa" come because I LIKED waking up to the excitement of presents on Christmas morning. I knew the gifts were from my parents. My parents knew I knew, and we continued the tradition by mutual agreement. (And because "Santa" didn't wrap presents, but mom and dad did, so Mom didn't want to wrap all those gifts!)

5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.

agreed







I really think it's all in what you, the parents, make it. We are very low keyed about it here.

Our very good friends don't do Santa & their DD, my DD's friend, told her Santa wasn't real despite the mother instilling in her kids to not share this with others. DD came to me & asked, "Is Santa real?" I asked her what she thought & she said she thought he was real but he didn't land on our roof. I agreed with her & then I talked with her about the spirit of giving & the true meaning of Christmas. I by no means lied to my DD.

Many kids live in fantasy, hence fairytales, & their play invloves fantasy & magic. I see this as no different. As long as my children believe in the fantasy of Santa, I'll go along with it. It really doesn't have to be a big deal. Btw I'm agnostic.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

My parents never introduced Santa. When I was 4, I was in a study for the child development department at Portland State University (actually, as I was in the university's preschool, I was in a lot of studies) and they determined I was a "true believer."

I have no memory of ever believing in Santa, although I do have a memory of liking the idea of believing in the tooth fairy. I never got presents from Santa and remember being appalled in my early teens when I read about some parent who never got thanked for gifts because *all* the kids' gifts came from "Santa."


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## jlmack45 (Jun 18, 2007)

Some of you will teach your child about Jesus, but not about Santa??? That's just odd to me. I think at that age, they need something special to believe in. Why must you all be such scrooges? Is there anything that you don't turn into a controvercial topic? Way to give your kids some special memories so that you can maintain your holier art thou personas.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlmack45* 
Some of you will teach your child about Jesus, but not about Santa??? That's just odd to me. I think at that age, they need something special to believe in. Why must you all be such scrooges? Is there anything that you don't turn into a controvercial topic? Way to give your kids some special memories so that you can maintain your holier art thou personas.









Christmas is actually a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice. That much I know.. I am not religious, but I do remember hearing jesus was not actually born christmas day? Also what does Santa and Jesus have to do with each other..I dont get the connection.
We do neither, santa is real, or jesus.

Our day is special, for reasons different than yours.
Ours is also free of judgemental attitudes.
Hope you find some peace


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlmack45* 
Why must you all be such scrooges? Is there anything that you don't turn into a controvercial topic? Way to give your kids some special memories so that you can maintain your holier art thou personas.









Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today??? People are entitled to raise their kids how they please. Stop the rudeness already.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
We do Santa for the following reasons:

1. A lot of kids LIKE magical beliefs in their lives. When they're 4-6, they invent their own magical ideas anyway. I don't see believing in Santa any worse than believing in fairies or elves or other magical creatures not associated with Christmas.

My kids are very into fantasy play and magic. Heck, ds is 7 and pretending that the angel with the wand in our nativity set can do magic, why not Santa?

And honestly, flying airplanes and flying reindeer are equally plausible to a 3 year old mind, I think.

2. It's possible to do Santa without the 'if you're good, you'll get presents, if you're bad you won't'. I just never introduced that concept. It wasn't even deliberate on my part, it just didn't occur to me. Once I thought about it, I kept it up because I didn't want to introduce that element. My kids get presents from Santa. Period. I don't add the stress of having to be good.

3. It's possible to do a low-key Santa. Santa is pretty low key in our house. They know that they also get presents from relatives. They're grateful for what they get. We go to church. We celebrate the religious holiday as much as the secular.

4. I was never traumatized by learning the "truth" about Santa. Ds wasn't traumatized by learning the truth this summer. He asked me if I was Santa. I asked him what he thought. He told me he thought I was Santa. I said he was right. Then he asked why I did it, and I replied that it was fun to pretend.

After I learned the truth, I still insisted that "Santa" come because I LIKED waking up to the excitement of presents on Christmas morning. I knew the gifts were from my parents. My parents knew I knew, and we continued the tradition by mutual agreement. (And because "Santa" didn't wrap presents, but mom and dad did, so Mom didn't want to wrap all those gifts!)

5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.

I think we must have been separated at birth, because this is 100% how I feel and how we do Santa.

I think Santa is real, but not in a literal sense. There is not a literal man in a red suit who slides down our chimney and brings presents, but "Santa" is the word we use to express and personify the feelings of wonder and unselfish giving that we celebrate at Christmas.

My daughter is three and a half, and she's a true believer. When we went to the mall, I prepared her ahead of time by telling her that some of Santa's helpers go to different places dressed up like Santa so they can meet children, and that she could tell him what she wanted and he would get the message to Santa. Well, she took one look at this guy and was dead certain that he was the REAL Santa, and she told me so. It was a magical experience for her. And why not?

When she's old enough to ask me seriously for an answer about whether Santa is real, and it's plain that she really wants to know, I will tell her. I think you do run into problems when you try to push a child to keep believing after they have doubts - that would feel more like lying to me.

But right now, I just feel like I'm sharing in her magic and wonder, and it feels great.


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## InchByInch (Aug 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlmack45* 
Some of you will teach your child about Jesus, but not about Santa??? That's just odd to me. I think at that age, they need something special to believe in. Why must you all be such scrooges? Is there anything that you don't turn into a controvercial topic? Way to give your kids some special memories so that you can maintain your holier art thou personas.









For our family, Jesus _is_ special, and He's _all_ we need to believe in. There's nothing wrong with *pretending* there's a Santa while not pushing him to be something 'real.' I hope, as a pp said, you can find some peace soon.


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## guestmama9910 (Dec 12, 2008)

Such loaded language here! I know that in an era of hardcore atheists and literalist religions, the idea of playing with your beliefs, myths, and fables can completely fall by the wayside, but I believe it's something most of us do whether we admit it or not, and it's how people can tell their children something that is not literally true and still not be lying. For some of us, even faith is play, and we enact in rituals (small "r" rituals there) things that we do not believe to be literally true in the work-a-day world around us. Nevertheless, we believe them on some level, and literal belief isn't the point. I think for many of us, it's the same with Santa.
--
AnnaArcturus

PS, We don't do Santa, it just never occurred to us to start.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to teach Santa is real, Santa is pretend, or not do anything about Santa. I don't think we need to get nasty about it.







I respect what anyone wants to teach about Santa. I just don't want to teach he is "real". I don't think that makes me a scrouge.







My kids still get presents and get to have fun. It has nothing to do with a "holier than thou" approach. I want my kids to know Jesus is the reason behind Christmas, not Santa. My focus is to be on Jesus, I don't think that is a bad thing, since that is what my religious beliefs are.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quite honestly, it is possible to "do" santa without lieing and without hurting your kids in the future. We do santa, but my kids know that santa is not real. We all just play along with it because it is fun and not because I push it or because my kids really think that santa exists. I had the same issues as the OP, which is why I would never, ever take the santa thing very far and allow them to know the truth, but yet have fun with the make-believe.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GooeyRN* 
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to teach Santa is real, Santa is pretend, or not do anything about Santa. I don't think we need to get nasty about it.







I respect what anyone wants to teach about Santa. I just don't want to teach he is "real". I don't think that makes me a scrouge.







My kids still get presents and get to have fun. It has nothing to do with a "holier than thou" approach. I want my kids to know Jesus is the reason behind Christmas, not Santa. My focus is to be on Jesus, I don't think that is a bad thing, since that is what my religious beliefs are.









i don't think doing santa is about teaching that he is real. i remember reading on another thread about this subject that someone accidently spoiled it for a teenager b/c her mother tried to hard to keep her believing... see now i think thats a little strange. santa is pretend. its fun to believe he is real but eventually kids will understand that he is pretend and it is ok b/c it is fun to pretend and christmas is about giving and family and whatever else is important to your family at christmas.. and that santa is just a fun part of that.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Just playing devil's advocate here so please no flames.

I think some of this frustration comes from the fact that every year there are about 3-4 threads dedicated to how horrible Santa is, how it's so bad to pretend Santa is real, how these "liars" are traumatizing their children for their own amusement, and how *you* are better then the next person because *you* don't do what they do. BUT, the second someone stands up to that and feels strongly about it they are the bad guy- or woman in this case.

What if there were *always* 3-4 threads about how silly it is to pretend there was a woman bore a child due to immaculate conception? You would probably feel attacked, right? I'm REALLY not trying to start a war here, I'm just bringing this up to make a point and I was brought up in a very religious home.

Religion always gets brought into it because these holidays we celebrate were Pagan in origin and over the years the church turned them into something different in order to bring more people into the church. That's a cold hard fact no matter how you look at it.

If you do santa fine, if ya don't fine. If you believe in a certain kind of religion fine and if you believe in something different or nothing at all, fine. We all were brought up a little differently, had different experiences, our parents told us different things to be true/untrue- santa AND religion included. We are all different and will ultimately bring up our children differently. We may not agree with what others do and may try to gently pursuade them otherwise but, in the end it's not our choice, it's the parent's.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

I fully embrace my Scrooge-hood. Bah Humbug. No Santa in our family.

Instead, we are teaching our daughter to be grateful to her loving family and friends who have taken the time and care to send her gifts, instead of attributing the plethora of gifts to a bearded, obese Caucasian man in a red suit who squeezes his way into homes across the world whilst flying on a sled powered by reindeer.










And also, a little sensitivity towards the fact that not everyone is American and/or Christian is in order. I am appalled to read purportedly Christian people here who are so very judgmental and xenophobic.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlmack45* 
Some of you will teach your child about Jesus, but not about Santa??? That's just odd to me. I think at that age, they need something special to believe in. Why must you all be such scrooges? Is there anything that you don't turn into a controvercial topic? Way to give your kids some special memories so that you can maintain your holier art thou personas.









Huh. Obviously that wasn't at me, since I said we had Yule. We'll have two things to open on the 25th b/c my stepdad and his wife are Christian and I respect that enough to open the gifts on the day they were intended to be opened on.

Scrooges..what does that mean to you? To me, it goes back to the story, with the really really rude guy who ignores people and is awful to others. Not doing the Santa thing doesn't mean you are rude or you ignore people. It just means you don't tell your kids that Santa will be bringing presents.

And it's not controversial to NOT do the Santa thing, LOL. You're just not doing something many other people in some countries do. If you read my post, you know it's rough! My son has decided S is real, despite my efforts to the contrary, and now I'm having a hard time because I either flat out say NO he's not, go along with what he believes and have "Santa" ignore him, or do some lying by saying Santa came and brought a present! Sigh.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon* 
Quite honestly, it is possible to "do" santa without lieing .... We do santa, but my kids know that santa is not real. We all just play along with it because it is fun ....

That's how my mom did it, but I don't have her to teach me, and I must have done it wrong.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







i don't think doing santa is about teaching that he is real.

And I think many people HERE know you can do it without making it something real, but most people I know IRL do it up BIG time, and absolutely that dude in the red suit is real real real to their kids. My stepmom forces the sAnta thing so much that if her kids tell her he's not real, they don't get gifts! Her kids are 26, 24, and 14!!!!! And they aren't allowed to say he's not real. Still. She's an extreme, most other people I know don't insist on it beyond when the kids figure it out. On another message board I'm on, there are maybe 3 other people who don't do the santa thing...everyone else does it, makes it real in their family, and MOURNS when the kids figure it out. It's mind-boggling.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *milkybean* 

That's how my mom did it, but I don't have her to teach me, and I must have done it wrong.










Oh I doubt you have done anything wrong. It is hard to do the 'right' thing as a parent because media and society pushes certain things... Santa being a huge thing that sells many items on TV, newspapers, and magazines. Santa is stationed in any mall and is the main character in many TV shows and movies. The image of Santa in this society is huge and something we have no control over as a parent. Even if you are TV free and ban any sort of media within your house, the image of Santa is everywhere.


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## seaheroine (Dec 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
We do Santa for the following reasons:

1. A lot of kids LIKE magical beliefs in their lives. When they're 4-6, they invent their own magical ideas anyway. I don't see believing in Santa any worse than believing in fairies or elves or other magical creatures not associated with Christmas.

My kids are very into fantasy play and magic. Heck, ds is 7 and pretending that the angel with the wand in our nativity set can do magic, why not Santa?

And honestly, flying airplanes and flying reindeer are equally plausible to a 3 year old mind, I think.

2. It's possible to do Santa without the 'if you're good, you'll get presents, if you're bad you won't'. I just never introduced that concept. It wasn't even deliberate on my part, it just didn't occur to me. Once I thought about it, I kept it up because I didn't want to introduce that element. My kids get presents from Santa. Period. I don't add the stress of having to be good.

3. It's possible to do a low-key Santa. Santa is pretty low key in our house. They know that they also get presents from relatives. They're grateful for what they get. We go to church. We celebrate the religious holiday as much as the secular.

4. I was never traumatized by learning the "truth" about Santa. Ds wasn't traumatized by learning the truth this summer. He asked me if I was Santa. I asked him what he thought. He told me he thought I was Santa. I said he was right. Then he asked why I did it, and I replied that it was fun to pretend.

After I learned the truth, I still insisted that "Santa" come because I LIKED waking up to the excitement of presents on Christmas morning. I knew the gifts were from my parents. My parents knew I knew, and we continued the tradition by mutual agreement. (And because "Santa" didn't wrap presents, but mom and dad did, so Mom didn't want to wrap all those gifts!)

5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.


This...great post. I *loved* Santa as a child and believed in him for quite some time, until ten I think.







After the truth came out, I still had three younger sisters and I kept the secret from them. Christmas was such a joyful, wonderful experience...we'd wake up in the crack of dawn and were allowed to open our stockings...I never felt betrayed or angry, only grateful.

In high school my siblings were still younger and I was enlisted to hide Easter eggs one year since my parents were tired. I remember getting a kick out of that, finding the most obscure egg hidden the next morning to my sister's shock when the total egg count was still one short. Haha.

I just loved the "magic" associated with the holidays as a child, I was very fantastical. Even the Brenda Breyers would saddle up a caravan to go visit the nativity set and the glass Santa house my Grandma had made. I hope my daughter enjoys the holidays with as much magic as I did. I feel like letting her believe is not dishonest but healthy and fun. I wouldn't trade those memories as a child for anything and NOW, this first year that I get to be Santa, I am beside myself with excitement. I was getting started stuffing her little stocking with Haba food last night and was just thrilled.


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## alicewyf (Apr 24, 2008)

I plan on telling my kids that Santa is fake, a myth, whatever. I won't ask them to pretend for their friends either. It is not my problem if other people lie to their children.

I identify as Pagan but I am also kind of agnostic (my husband is atheist). We will celebrate Yule at our house as the Winter Solstice and I will explain why other people celebrate Christmas. I also want to talk to them about Chanukah and Eid al Adha, which sometimes falls in December. I feel that Santa is just part of the consumerism of "Giftmas" in general. I really dislike the holiday season as an adult, but I loved it as a kid. I want to try to preserve some of that magic but try to make it more authentic.

Right now I'm trying to focus on gift-giving as an act of love instead of an obligation. It still feels like an obligation though. It's hard.

I have issues with the Giftmas season in general, so yeah. No Santa. No way.


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## InchByInch (Aug 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.

This is a really good point, Lynn, and it got me thinking. I was not abused in any way as a child, but (without getting into a lot of detail) was not given or showed the love every child needs. Christmas was the one time of year that I felt special, the one time my parents not only demonstrated love but went completely over the top to show it, and this love mainly showed itself through "Santa." When my brother told me there was no Santa, I remember plaintively asking my mother at the dinner table if it was true. She wouldn't look at me, but simply said, "Ask your father." So I turned to my father and asked again. He said yes, it was true, there was no Santa. And no flames please, but there are tears in my eyes, typing this, at the memory. It was not handled well, and it broke my heart. In addition, after this our way of celebrating Christmas completely changed, and not for the better. All the magical traditions were gone, and they were not replaced with anything meaningful. This is not to say that no one here can present the Santa story a lot better, giving your children lots of wonderful, fuzzy memories of Mr. Claus-- I'm simply relaying my own experience, my own memory.

The other problem that I only now see as an adult is that, despite our family's Catholic identity, no emphasis was particularly put on Jesus (other than a nativity set and Christmas Eve Mass-- Christmas at our house was mainly about presents and Santa. Again, I know that some Christian families here try to put emphasis on both Santa and Jesus, but my experience was not like that (which is, again, why losing Santa was so devastating to me). Now I'm approaching 30, and it is only _this year_, with a faith powerful and reborn, that I'm looking at Advent and Christmas once more as a meaningful time. I know that not everyone on MDC is Christian and none of my posts here are intended to be or sound judgmental about that-- as I said above, this is simply my own experience-- it's just wonderful _for me_ to realize as an adult that Christmas can still be a very magical time, now that I'm looking through the lens of a different kind of faith, the faith that says Christmas was never about Santa anyway, but instead a Baby who came among us thousands of years ago. Does that make sense?

Anyway, all of this blathering is to say that for my family, I would rather the emphasis not be on Santa. I couldn't care less if my kids want to play pretend about him all day long-- as I said in my original post, Santa's not a bad word here. Nor would I have to worry that my kids would latch on to him as the only source of demonstrative love all year long-- one of the many reasons I became an attachment parent was to avoid the mistakes my parents made in that area. I just want, from the very beginning, to make the emphasis on Someone I hope my kids _always_ believe in.

Edited to add: There are LOTS of ways to make Christmas magical and full of tradition and fun without Santa. Those of us who choose to forgo Santa should not be assumed to be Scrooges.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
And also, a little sensitivity towards the fact that not everyone is American and/or Christian is in order. I am appalled to read purportedly Christian people here who are so very judgmental and xenophobic.









:

Thank you!


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
I plan on telling my kids that Santa is fake, a myth, whatever. I won't ask them to pretend for their friends either. It is not my problem if other people lie to their children.

this is incredibly insensitive. some people enjoy pretending.


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## ShwarmaQueen (Mar 28, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
I also want to talk to them about Chanukah and Eid al Adha, which sometimes falls in December. I feel that Santa is just part of the consumerism of "Giftmas" in general. I really dislike the holiday season as an adult, but I loved it as a kid. I want to try to preserve some of that magic but try to make it more authentic.

Nice that you're teacing them about Islamic and Jewish holidays. As a muslim (converted as adult) who was raised in America, I do see the irony in celebrating a religious holiday by making exorbitant gift purchases instead of doing cheritable deeds. But I don't really have an issue with Santa- of course we don't do the Santa gift giving thing in our household, but I see it no differently than kids playing other make believe games. Just as DD knows she's not really a princess who rides a unicorn, while living in a magical kingdom, I think she also knows that Santa is ficticious. But I don't see it as lying by playing along, anymore than agreeing that she's that princess.

If anything I explain that Christmas is sorta the celebration of the birth of Jesus, and we muslims love Jesus and believe he was a prophet from God, as was Mohamed. We always have giving to charity and our blessed fortune as the focus of our islamic holidays. This way she can fully distinguish Islamic holidays from Christian holidays, and not feel alienated that she doesn't "fully" celebrate them.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
this is incredibly insensitive. some people enjoy pretending.

ok so I was wrong about some other people (refering to the poster you were commenting on, not you).


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
What if there were *always* 3-4 threads about how silly it is to pretend there was a woman bore a child due to immaculate conception?

The Immaculate Conception was the conception of _Mary_, not the conception of Jesus. 







The Immaculate Conception isn't the conception of Christ, in other words. Just thought I'd throw that out there....common mistake.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Alright, time to simmer down. I posted earlier, but now this thread is funny because my kids who have been taught that Santa is a pretend game we play, and who have been looking forward to it, told me yesterday they didn't want to play it this year...and now *I* am all bummed because I was looking forward to it too







. Oh well!


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
The Immaculate Conception was the conception of _Mary_, not the conception of Jesus.







The Immaculate Conception isn't the conception of Christ, in other words. Just thought I'd throw that out there....common mistake.









Thanks.

Nowhere in the Bible is it discussed that Mary was also the product of immaculate conception-thus Mary's mother would have to be the product of immaculate conception and so on...... But in the Bible it only talks about Jesus's immaculate conception.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
Thanks.

Nowhere in the Bible is it discussed that Mary was also the product of immaculate conception-thus Mary's mother would have to be the product of immaculate conception and so on...... But in the Bible it only talks about Jesus's immaculate conception.

Not to derail, but you're not using the right term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

The _Immaculate Conception_ is the conception of Mary - feast of the Immaculate Conception: Dec 8th. The Incarnation and the Virgin Birth are terms that refer to Christ.

The Bible talks of the Incarnation and the Virgin Birth; the words immaculate conception are never used.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And now, for the sake of staying on topic







,
1. Do those of you who avoid Santa during Christmas also do the same with other imaginary things such as the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc? And if so, what about still other imaginary things - like fairies, gnomes, hobbits, trolls, etc.? Just curious...
2. And those of you who are Catholic/Christian - if you do NOT do Santa, do you do St Nicholas? Dec 6 - little goodies in the kiddy's shoes?

I myself am still torn on the whole Santa thing. I really want to keep the materialism out of Christmas, but it's so tough when EVERYONE around us "does" Santa. This year, he's coming. Last year, he didn't. Oh well.


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## alicewyf (Apr 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
this is incredibly insensitive. some people enjoy pretending.

You can call it "pretend" if you want to. Just as long as my child knows that it is pretend, and doesn't feel like they have to pretend if they don't want to, I'm fine with it.

I just think there is a fine line between pretending there is Santa and kids actually believing there is Santa. I could tell the difference between real and pretend at a very early age, but I believed in Santa for as long as I did because my parents took steps to make sure that I did...they would even put footprints in the ashes of our fireplace, and would point out passing airplanes on Christmas Eve as Rudolph's flashing nose.

So yeah. I believe my parents lied to me, and I think that's wrong. If some people want to make it more of a game, where the kids are pretending Santa, that is fine too, as long as everyone understands what is going on. But yeah. My kids will be aware of the fact that Santa isn't real. If that makes me a party-pooper, so be it.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Sancta-
We do the others in the same spirit we do santa. He is not real, we know he is not, but lets pretend. I would not bother at all, but we are surrounded by santa-believers. I think dd might be sad to not get to have a stocking at all.
No teeth have fallen out yet, but i think it she would enjoy putting a tooth uner her pillow and waking up to find a charm or money instead.
Halloween she picks out 15 pieces of candy and leaves the rest out for the gobblin. The gobblin takes the candy and leaves a small gift in return.
Easter- I do a treasure hunt for her, gifts and chocolate.
She knows all of those holiday characters are a myth, she still gets to have fun with it, but we are not extravagant about the gift part.
and to keep her from being confused, god is sort of the same mythical being that some people choose to believe is real, because they believe thier lives are enhanced by believing or whatever reason.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
You can call it "pretend" if you want to. Just as long as my child knows that it is pretend, and doesn't feel like they have to pretend if they don't want to, I'm fine with it.

I just think there is a fine line between pretending there is Santa and kids actually believing there is Santa. I could tell the difference between real and pretend at a very early age, but I believed in Santa for as long as I did because my parents took steps to make sure that I did...they would even put footprints in the ashes of our fireplace, and would point out passing airplanes on Christmas Eve as Rudolph's flashing nose.

So yeah. I believe my parents lied to me, and I think that's wrong. If some people want to make it more of a game, where the kids are pretending Santa, that is fine too, as long as everyone understands what is going on. But yeah. My kids will be aware of the fact that Santa isn't real. If that makes me a party-pooper, so be it.

I think you are missing the point. not everyone whos parents got them to believe in santa feel like they have been lied to. I certainly dont. my husband doesnt. my sisters dont. my friends dont. my parents went to great lengths to get me to believe in it. when i found out there was no santa, it was no big deal at all. in fact, i dont even think i ever brought it up that i now knew. and still, we always do santa. i would feel sad if i thought back to my childhood and had never had the fun of santa. some familys have a lot of good memories surrounding the idea. so, that is why i say it is very insensitive to not care about whether or not your child ruins it for another child. you should just tell him that some people believe in it, some people don't, and that it is rude to try to tell someone that their traditions aren't true.


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## alicewyf (Apr 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrspineau* 
you should just tell him that some people believe in it, some people don't, and that it is rude to try to tell someone that their traditions aren't true.

I plan on telling them that about religion. I don't really think Santa is on the same level as religion.

ETA: People's beliefs about God should be respected because people actually sincerely believe in those things. I don't think any adult believes Santa is real. I think kids are well equipped enough to be able to tell the difference.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
I plan on telling them that about religion. I don't really think Santa is on the same level as religion.

ETA: People's beliefs about God should be respected because people actually sincerely believe in those things. I don't think any adult believes Santa is real. I think kids are well equipped enough to be able to tell the difference.

Hmmm... there are many, many cultures with many, many traditions and it is extremely oppressive to try to tell someone that their culture with their tradition just is not on the same level as yours. What makes your culture, with your traditions much more viable than others? It is a very biased viewpoint that does not take into consideration the diversity of people.

FWIW, I do not believe in any religion or in iconic cultural symbols, but do not try to tell others that their beliefs are essentially... ridiculous. My thoughts on believing in a god are the same as my thoughts on santa. It is all culture.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon* 
Hmmm... there are many, many cultures with many, many traditions and it is extremely oppressive to try to tell someone that their culture with their tradition just is not on the same level as yours. What makes your culture, with your traditions much more viable than others? It is a very biased viewpoint that does not take into consideration the diversity of people.

FWIW, I do not believe in any religion or in iconic cultural symbols, but do not try to tell others that their beliefs are essentially... ridiculous. My thoughts on believing in a god are the same as my thoughts on santa. It is all culture.

I agree.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
I plan on telling them that about religion. I don't really think Santa is on the same level as religion.

ETA: People's beliefs about God should be respected because people actually sincerely believe in those things. I don't think any adult believes Santa is real. I think kids are well equipped enough to be able to tell the difference.

Well... I actually don't care too much if people don't pretend about Santa around my son as long as they don't yell "Santa is dead!!!" or get in his face and say "it's a BIG LIE you idiot." And our approach to Santa is pretty mild - we don't go to huge lengths to make an elaborate attempt at Reality or something.

But. That said.

*I do believe in Santa, actually.* I believe Santa is an expression of unconditional love (obviously we don't do the naughty/nice thing) and that he brings people and families together in love.

My husband's family is Catholic and they believe in the "communion of saints," which is basically that saints have a special relationship to the divine in the expression of God's plan. I believe in that to some extent (I'm not a whole-hearted Christian; I tend to see Christianity as one path towards the divine) and I think that people like St. Francis, St. Brigit, etc., all are human beings from whom we can learn about the divine.

And St. Nicolas, i.e. Santa, has to be just about one of the most pervasive ones in our society. People who cannot agree on a lot of things work harmoniously to make a Jolly Good Time for young innocent children.

I do believe in that, totally. Just like people believe Jesus works through them? Yes. *Just like that.*

I think Santa may be slowly becoming a better Jesus than Jesus, in that at least Santa does not blow up abortion clinics.

So here's one adult who believes in Santa. Yup.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
I plan on telling them that about religion. I don't really think Santa is on the same level as religion.

ETA: People's beliefs about God should be respected because people actually sincerely believe in those things. I don't think any adult believes Santa is real.

But many children do. So are you saying that only adults' beliefs should be respected because they sincerely believe in those things? Because otherwise I don't see how you can draw a distinction between respecting other people's opinions about God, which your family may or may not share, and respecting other people's opinions about Santa.


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## alicewyf (Apr 24, 2008)

Children believe in Santa because adults tell them it is true. It is not a belief that they came to on their own terms. At some point they realize Santa does not exist. This is not on the same level as religion, because most religions have some sort of dedication ceremony that you undergo as an adult (bar mitzvah, confirmation, etc.) that symbolizes your belief in these things as an adult who thinks for themselves.

There is no way you can argue that Santa is real and have it be true, unless you actually believe Santa exists. I don't think there are many adults who believe that the actual person of Santa, as children view him, with his reindeer and presents at the north pole, actually exists. They may believe in the "spirit of Santa" or whatever, but that's not the same thing.

Bottom line is, everyone realizes at some point that "The Myth of Santa" is untrue.

Somebody else said that not respecting a child's belief in Santa is the same as not respecting religion or other cultural traditions. I don't believe this, because Santa is not real. He isn't. There is no debate here. Even Wikipedia lists him as a myth and legend. Brownies or fairies are not real, but there is a large tradition w/r/t those. Should I tell my children that fairies might be real or might not, just because some people believe in them? Gnomes are not real. Manticores are not real. Superman is not real. Santa is not real.

Also, the idea that I don't have religious or cultural tolerance is laughable. You know nothing about me and my background.

I'm not going to go around telling children that Santa isn't real. I will say something like "You should probably ask your parents about that." I don't plan on trying to censor things my children may or may not say about Santa, because I don't believe they should have to lie. That's it. I think I'm done with this conversation.

Here's an illuminating article that some may be interested in reading:

http://atheism.about.com/od/christma.../SantaMyth.htm


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
Children believe in Santa because adults tell them it is true. It is not a belief that they came to on their own terms. At some point they realize Santa does not exist. This is not on the same level as religion, because most religions have some sort of dedication ceremony that you undergo as an adult (bar mitzvah, confirmation, etc.) that symbolizes your belief in these things as an adult who thinks for themselves.


Jesus, God and whomever else exists because parents pass it onto their children. My children will truly get to decide what they want to believe in, if anything, because I do not teach any religion and I teach them to be critical thinkers. They truly will come to it on their own terms.

I am not like some big Santa advocate, I honestly think it is a bunch of hooey... just like many other traditions in this society. BUT, I would never attempt to be overly critical of what other people have as traditions directly to them. I can say whatever I want, to those I spend my life with, but coming to someplace like this and expressing a viewpoint on how idiotic people are based on their traditions is, well, kinda hating on others. This is why I say that you are intolerant... cause well, you really have a hard time just letting others do what they do, which I know you will deny, but yet, you are just so... angry and persistent.


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## InchByInch (Aug 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think Santa may be slowly becoming a better Jesus than Jesus, in that at least Santa does not blow up abortion clinics.

Neither does Jesus. The people who blow up abortion clinics are doing exactly what Jesus says NOT to do.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Well... I actually don't care too much if people don't pretend about Santa around my son as long as they don't yell "Santa is dead!!!" or get in his face and say "it's a BIG LIE you idiot."


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon* 
Jesus, God and whomever else exists because parents pass it onto their children. My children will truly get to decide what they want to believe in, if anything, because I do not teach any religion and I teach them to be critical thinkers. They truly will come to it on their own terms.

I am not like some big Santa advocate, I honestly think it is a bunch of hooey... just like many other traditions in this society. BUT, I would never attempt to be overly critical of what other people have as traditions directly to them. I can say whatever I want, to those I spend my life with, but coming to someplace like this and expressing a viewpoint on how idiotic people are based on their traditions is, well, kinda hating on others. This is why I say that you are intolerant... cause well, you really have a hard time just letting others do what they do, which I know you will deny, but yet, you are just so... angry and persistent.









:









I have a really hard time comparing G*D/religion to Santa or to faeries or anything else for that matter. Who says G*D is actually real? Have you seen him/her/it, touched/him/her/it? Has G*D actually ever existed in the flesh? I don't deny that Jesus was an actual person and a very good person but, there is no proof G*D is real. Even if someone "experienced" a "presence" or something, there is coincidence or reading too much into something. There are other things I could list like- G*D works in mysterious ways like letting young children get kidnapped and killed or a whole population starve to death- I don't get it, that's way too mysterious for me to understand.

Because we haven't taught our son that G*D is real is it OK for me to allow him, not sensor him and let him tell other children he/she/it isn't real?

And just because WIKI says so about *anything* doesn't really mean a whole lot to me.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

Quote:

We do Santa for the following reasons:

1. A lot of kids LIKE magical beliefs in their lives. When they're 4-6, they invent their own magical ideas anyway. I don't see believing in Santa any worse than believing in fairies or elves or other magical creatures not associated with Christmas.

My kids are very into fantasy play and magic. Heck, ds is 7 and pretending that the angel with the wand in our nativity set can do magic, why not Santa?

And honestly, flying airplanes and flying reindeer are equally plausible to a 3 year old mind, I think.

2. It's possible to do Santa without the 'if you're good, you'll get presents, if you're bad you won't'. I just never introduced that concept. It wasn't even deliberate on my part, it just didn't occur to me. Once I thought about it, I kept it up because I didn't want to introduce that element. My kids get presents from Santa. Period. I don't add the stress of having to be good.

3. It's possible to do a low-key Santa. Santa is pretty low key in our house. They know that they also get presents from relatives. They're grateful for what they get. We go to church. We celebrate the religious holiday as much as the secular.

4. I was never traumatized by learning the "truth" about Santa. Ds wasn't traumatized by learning the truth this summer. He asked me if I was Santa. I asked him what he thought. He told me he thought I was Santa. I said he was right. Then he asked why I did it, and I replied that it was fun to pretend.

After I learned the truth, I still insisted that "Santa" come because I LIKED waking up to the excitement of presents on Christmas morning. I knew the gifts were from my parents. My parents knew I knew, and we continued the tradition by mutual agreement. (And because "Santa" didn't wrap presents, but mom and dad did, so Mom didn't want to wrap all those gifts!)

5. I wonder if being traumatized by learning the truth is more about larger family relationships than about "lying" to your child.

DITTO!!!!!!! Well said!!!


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## LittleSoulMama (Apr 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alicewyf* 
Children believe in Santa because adults tell them it is true. It is not a belief that they came to on their own terms. At some point they realize Santa does not exist. This is not on the same level as religion, because most religions have some sort of dedication ceremony that you undergo as an adult (bar mitzvah, confirmation, etc.) that symbolizes your belief in these things as an adult who thinks for themselves.

There is no way you can argue that Santa is real and have it be true, unless you actually believe Santa exists. I don't think there are many adults who believe that the actual person of Santa, as children view him, with his reindeer and presents at the north pole, actually exists. They may believe in the "spirit of Santa" or whatever, but that's not the same thing.

Bottom line is, everyone realizes at some point that "The Myth of Santa" is untrue.

Somebody else said that not respecting a child's belief in Santa is the same as not respecting religion or other cultural traditions. I don't believe this, because Santa is not real. He isn't. There is no debate here. Even Wikipedia lists him as a myth and legend. Brownies or fairies are not real, but there is a large tradition w/r/t those. Should I tell my children that fairies might be real or might not, just because some people believe in them? Gnomes are not real. Manticores are not real. Superman is not real. Santa is not real.

Also, the idea that I don't have religious or cultural tolerance is laughable. You know nothing about me and my background.

I'm not going to go around telling children that Santa isn't real. I will say something like "You should probably ask your parents about that." I don't plan on trying to censor things my children may or may not say about Santa, because I don't believe they should have to lie. That's it. I think I'm done with this conversation.

Here's an illuminating article that some may be interested in reading:

http://atheism.about.com/od/christma.../SantaMyth.htm

Thanks for the article







I don't plan on asking my child to lie to others about Santa either. I am sad that other adults are already telling him lies. I ignored the comments people made to him this year about Santa as he had no idea what they were talking about and I had no idea really how to respond. I feel I should have done though and will do next year however, the more I read these threads the more I worry that however I word it I am going to get a negative and critical response. I don't feel ok though about saying nothing while people tell my child lies.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

This seems to turn more into a debate about atheism and religion. What I find perplexing is the term "lies" used to describe what is for most children nothing more than the creation/introduction of a mysterious holiday figure. Of course even a good thing can be taken to the extreme and twisted to take on ominous or negative connotations. But, by and large, it seems overall family dynamics provide the context for the manner in which the child perceives santa. both, as a child and as a grown-up.


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







doing santa doesn't directly translate into lying to your kids and your kids having broken hearts. i think forcing the santa belief can do that.. but the idea of santa alone doesn't. we believed in santa.. but most of our presents were still from my parents.. and all of the presents from other relatives were from whoever gave them to me... how does a picture with santa, leaving cookies on the table, and reading the night before christmas add but to lying and broken hearts?









: DD figured it out this year, she wasn't heart broken. I never told her he was real, always redirected back to her i.e. "what do you think?" And we only gave 2 gifts from santa. My DD is no slouch though she ran across the "santa" paper from last christmas by accident lat summer and immediately asked about it! I think it's a fun magical thing. But nothing beyond that.


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## Close2Me (Dec 9, 2008)

What are you thoughts on the easter bunny, tooth fairy, gnomes & fairies, leprecans (sp?), and magicians?


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## Bug-a-Boo's Mama (Jan 15, 2008)

I completely think that it is fine to not do Santa. We do Santa. I have no bad memories of finding out Santa is not real. But we don't do the whole if you are bad you won't get anything. We'll just go with it for however long K wants to.

ETA~
I just asked DH how he found out that there was no Santa. An older good friend told him-he was very mad at the friend, not his parents. Also-he was between 9 and 11 when he found out!


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 

Instead, we are teaching our daughter to be grateful to her loving family and friends who have taken the time and care to send her gifts, instead of attributing the plethora of gifts to a bearded, obese Caucasian man in a red suit who squeezes his way into homes across the world whilst flying on a sled powered by reindeer.
.

This is how I feel, plus the age-old concept of a winter festival about "It's so dark and cold and when's the sun going to come back oh well better have a party to kill the time. Bring presents." I would not do Santa at all, but dh thinks it's depriving the kids, so we have agreed to disagree. I go along with his fetish about wrapping the kids' gifts in different colored paper from everyone else's (but only b/c I love him). I don't take them for pictures with Santa b/c I am too cheap, and I don't play it up myself. I just keep sort of quiet about it.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

My son figured it out this Christmas. He is 5. I am pregnant, and he asked me not to lie to the baby about Santa. FWIW


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly* 
My son figured it out this Christmas. He is 5. I am pregnant, and he asked me not to lie to the baby about Santa. FWIW

Awww! Did that make you feel bad?


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## mama2toomany (Oct 17, 2005)

Ok I felt really traumatized when I found out about Santa, I was only 5 and I still remember it, I woke up late at night and heard my mother telling my grandpa "well I have to get these damn toys under the tree and stockings up". I will never forget it. I was so sad.

With my children, they are 12,11,10 and 4. We have NEVER had Santa, not just because of the lying but also because I believe children should have to say thank you to people who put the effort forth to give them a special day.

So My children know of Santa, but they know he is not real. I taught them about the spirit of Santa and stories about him, but I made emphasis that he is made up. Not real. But I told them that a lot of children, most children that celebrate Christmas believe in Santa very much, so we must not ruin there dreams of santa ever.

I just asked my 11 year old if he feels like he missed something believing in santa, his reply was

"giggle no, I think it would be creepy to have someone sneak in the house",

So I don't think they missed out, I think they are glad they have this adult knowledge about it.


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
Christmas is actually a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice. That much I know.. I am not religious, but I do remember hearing jesus was not actually born christmas day? Also what does Santa and Jesus have to do with each other..I dont get the connection.
We do neither, santa is real, or jesus.

Our day is special, for reasons different than yours.
Ours is also free of judgemental attitudes.
Hope you find some peace









I love your post. But, I do want to correct something. It is true that Christmas is celebrated at the same time as the pagan holiday and that many christmas traditions come from pagan and other non-christian traditions. However, the word "christmas" means "Christ's mass" and is a feast/celebration of the birth of Christ. No one knows exactly what day Christ was born, but the church picked a day so that we could celebrate the significance of His incarnation.


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## leosmommy (May 11, 2008)

as parents we have chosen not to do santa at all. it is our decision to make and we will stand by it. we do not feel obligated to explain it to anyone. our families think we're crazy anyway for all the ap we do. we just stay home for xmas and go to church.


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