# My husband is dead-set against me



## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Friends of mine have encouraged me to post here about my issues in the hopes of finding some sort of... I don't know. At this point it would take a magical solution that I don't know about yet.

I like to think of myself as a rational, logical person. When the question came up of circ or no circ, I read a little and quickly decided there was no need to do so. I am not a fan of ANY kind of surgeries or treatments that are not medically necessary, and the thought of cutting off a piece of my son's PENIS makes me literally queasy.

But my husband... oh my husband. First of all, he's circed. All his brothers are circed. We live in New England (which has some of the highest circ rates in the country) so almost everyone he knows is circed. He grew up in a time where an uncirced boy was made fun of horribly. In a time when uncirced penises were dirty and disgusting. My husband feels very VERY strongly about this. He reacted so horribly when I stated that I do not want to circumcise our son.

It has gotten very very BAD. We literally cannot speak about circumcision in the house anymore, as it ends up with me in tears, him angry, and us no closer to an agreement. He has been literally begging me to give him this one decision, he says he'll do anything at all, go along with any other idea at all, if I will give him this one. And it's breaking my heart. See, crying again. I do not want to hurt my husband.

He has been really really wonderful. He's not the kind to really research things, he's certainly not earth-crunchy. But he's agreed to do cloth diapering (with prefolds!) and isn't put off by it. He wants to babywear (though he refuses to wear a wrap or a sling, lol). He's supportive of me breastfeeding, even though he thinks formula is a fine option (he knows how very important BFing is to me). We're doing Bradley classes because I want to have a natural birth and he insists on being as fully involved as possible (he got very upset when I suggested a doula, because he thought I wanted to replace him!)... his only caveat being I have to give birth in what is, in his opinion, the BEST hospital in the area. (Something I am okay with.) I just want you to understand that my husband is a WONDERFUL man, very very giving, very very supportive, very willing to give me almost anything I want.

But the idea of not circing his boy FREAKS HIM OUT. I have read all sorts of research to him and it has only upset him further. He says smegma is disgusting and there is nothing I can say that will change his mind, even though I know it is a perfectly normal thing and easy to keep clean, just like my girly bits (which he does not find disgusting, btw). He is circed, like I said, and he likes him how he is. He thinks that's how penises SHOULD be, and he is thoroughly repulsed by non-circed penises (we spent one evening looking up info and photos online).

I just don't know what to do anymore. His opinion is not based on any kind of logic or reasoning, so all the research I have only goes so far. He has this huge gut-instinct reaction and nothing I say or do seems to make a dent in it.

He has expressed to me great sadness that I am the one who makes the final decision... because he knows as well as I do that the hospital won't do a thing without both our signatures. (And he'd never go ahead and do something behind my back.)

I do not WANT it to come down to me simply refusing to sign the papers. I do not WANT to spend the days after our son's birth with my husband resenting me for this. But what else can I do? What else can I say? Either way I feel like I'm letting someone down. There doesn't seem to be any good answer. Unless my husband miraculously changes his mind... but at this point, after so many arguments... I just don't see how that's going to happen.

Any help greatly appreciated...


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Oh, Natalie, my heart goes out to you.

You are exactly right - his opinion is NOT based on any kind of logic or reasoning. Please read this article (but don't show it to DH) - it might give you a better understand of where he's coming from.

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I am so sorry you are going through this. Many of the mama's here have dealt with similar issues including myself.

My dh still is not anti circ but he doesn't see it that same way he used to.

What it comes down to in my mind is your dh is a grown man and he will love his ds no matter what. But you are the only one here to protect your ds from what you know is a surgery that is cosmetic only.

You worry about your dh resenting you. What about how you will feel about your dh if you allow this to happen? Will you be able to look at him the same way knowing you hurt your ds just to make your dh happy?

What if you ds is one that has major issues with the circ? We have more than one mama here who's ds's have had really bad complications leading to more surgery down the road for their ds and more pain that could have been totally avoided.

Even if he has no noticeable complication what if he comes to you years from now and asked why you cut the most sensitive part of my penis off and your only answer will be because it would have upset your father if I hadn't









Our #1 job as parents is to protect our children from harm. There is no one else out there going to do it so it is up to you to protect him from what you know is a senseless and very painful procedure with life long ramifications. If it comes down to you refusing then so be it. I couldnt respect a man who wanted to hurt my child can you continue to see your dh as the warm, loving, kind man if he dosnt let his son be whole?


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## ctdoula (Dec 26, 2002)

I'm very sorry you're dealing with this. I just wanted to give you one piece of info. I teach childbirth classes in MA (Baystate Medical Ctr) and the circ rate there is about 50%. Not great, but definatly not the majority (obviously). You can get the rates at any hospital in MA by law. Knowing that it's not the majority anymore and that either way he'll have friends that are the same may help.

Also, I would show him the circ videos, rent Penn & Teller to show him their circ episode, email him links, etc. I'm sure others will have more helpful info, but I wish you the best.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Has he watched the video linked to here on the forum of a circ and what his ds will have to endure?


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

I was exactly in your shoes 8 years ago. I caved in about a week after my son was born because I was weak. I was tired of the tension between us, I thought in the one moment I said fine, but you have to be the one to schedule it, take him in and comfort him while they're doing it. I put my husbabnd before my son. I have regretted it ever since. By the way I successfully kept my second son intact. Partly from the intense regret and guilt that I didn't protect my son, when he was helpless. A week old. I have not looked at my husband the same way since then. What kind of man wants to pay someone hundreds of dollars to cut off the most sensitive part of their own newborn's genetalia. I lost so much respect for my husband over his own refusal to get outside of his own opinion. Your son can always choose to get circed one day. Even if he chooses to restore one day, it doesn't bring back what you two paid to have physically cut off.

I thought it would be better for my family to end the conflict and just handle it myself, then let it drag on. But I still hurt more than I can convey across internet space. It's difficult to forgive myself when I can't even claim I was ignorant, I didn't know better. I have to say I knew it was wrong, really really wrong, I would be so pissed off if someone did that to me, and I still let it happen.

It isn't a discussion. It isn't about respecting your husband's feelings or point of view. I got that confused. It's about doing what is right. It's about protecting your son. Your husband doesn't have to agree or understand. It isn't his body. Feel free to pm me with anything on this. It's just a lot harder to look at yourself with respect when you're holding your whimpering, crying newborn, knowing it's your fault he's circed.


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## Kabes (May 17, 2004)

My DH was pretty set against it too. Finally, I said fine on two conditions. 1- you arrange to watch one in person or watch two on video AND 2-you go with your son and comfort him while it's being done. Guess what?

My boys are intact.
He never even tried to download the videos. He couldn't stomach the idea of having to watch.
It only makes sense that you have to see it to really understand what you are doing. And you should really understand before you make a life time decision for someone else's body.
Best wishes to you and your son.


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

Ask your husband how he'll feel if you don't want to have sex with him anymore because a circed penis is so traumatic to you after having to care for your baby's wound from it, and knowing your husband wanted it?

It completely destroyed our completely healthy sex life. How can you want to have sex with a man who insists on cutting your tiny baby's penis?


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

WOW!!! Your story sounds soooo much like mine, its frighting!!







:

One thing that is different, I didn't have MDC at that time to help me with this.









You do







!

Okay first off read this...
The Vulnerablilty of Men
This is for YOUR eyes only. It'll give you a good perspective on where he's coming from.

Then buy the Penn & Teller BullSh!t DVD for him for x-mas the episode on circumcision convinced my dh so much that he sent it to every single man he knows. (that is so not like my dh)

Tell him "We'll build for our son a healthy self esteem that locker room issues should ever be a problem, I mean, c'mon a guy looking at another guys penis? They'd be teased just for looking!!!"

Circumcision is a solution in search of a problem - Edward Wallerstein
Show him this slide show of the history of this practice.
The Medicalization of Circumcision

Then say, "I don't want to be apart of that scam!!!"

If he never gets on board, he will even if it takes till your intact is grown. You have the power to protect him. You can say no. Just say no. Its really really easy. Say NO. ok









Take this Circ Refusal Form to a Lawyer and have him sign it. Make at least 4 copies of that form with his Signature. Have your OB sign it, and the Pediatrician sign it as well. Make no/circ stickers and put them on your ds's diapers. Make No Circ cards for the nursury bassinet at the hospital. Put a NoCirc Sign on your Postpartum Hospital Door. Do everything in your power to protect your ds!!! The cards, forms and stickers all can be made from that link. Scroll down to the bottom. It will give you options on how to create them.

Good Luck and GOOD FOR YOU FOR PROTECTING YOUR DS!!!! YOU ARE A GREAT MOM!!!!


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
He says smegma is disgusting

He *actually* said that to you?!


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Smegma is the Greek word for soap.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Smegma is the Greek word for soap.

I have a soap factory in my pants.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)




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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

:



Penn and Teller


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead*


Oh, Natalie, my heart goes out to you.

You are exactly right - his opinion is NOT based on any kind of logic or reasoning. Please read this article (but don't show it to DH) - it might give you a better understand of where he's coming from.

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html


Thank you. I have read that... it did make a lot of sense.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X*


I am so sorry you are going through this. Many of the mama's here have dealt with similar issues including myself.

My dh still is not anti circ but he doesn't see it that same way he used to.

What it comes down to in my mind is your dh is a grown man and he will love his ds no matter what. But you are the only one here to protect your ds from what you know is a surgery that is cosmetic only.

You worry about your dh resenting you. What about how you will feel about your dh if you allow this to happen? Will you be able to look at him the same way knowing you hurt your ds just to make your dh happy?

What if you ds is one that has major issues with the circ? We have more than one mama here who's ds's have had really bad complications leading to more surgery down the road for their ds and more pain that could have been totally avoided.

Even if he has no noticeable complication what if he comes to you years from now and asked why you cut the most sensitive part of my penis off and your only answer will be because it would have upset your father if I hadn't

Our #1 job as parents is to protect our children from harm. There is no one else out there going to do it so it is up to you to protect him from what you know is a senseless and very painful procedure with life long ramifications. If it comes down to you refusing then so be it. I couldnt respect a man who wanted to hurt my child can you continue to see your dh as the warm, loving, kind man if he dosnt let his son be whole?


This is what keeps me up at night... knowing how much I would regret it if I gave in. And yes if anything did go wrong... it would tear me apart.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ctdoula*


I'm very sorry you're dealing with this. I just wanted to give you one piece of info. I teach childbirth classes in MA (Baystate Medical Ctr) and the circ rate there is about 50%. Not great, but definatly not the majority (obviously). You can get the rates at any hospital in MA by law. Knowing that it's not the majority anymore and that either way he'll have friends that are the same may help.

Also, I would show him the circ videos, rent Penn & Teller to show him their circ episode, email him links, etc. I'm sure others will have more helpful info, but I wish you the best.


Thank you for that info! Actually, that is where I am giving birth. 50% is a much better statistic than others I have found for the north east. Wow.

I need to get that DVD.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X*


Has he watched the video linked to here on the forum of a circ and what his ds will have to endure?


No.... mostly because I can't bear to watch. :/

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ja mama*


I was exactly in your shoes 8 years ago. I caved in about a week after my son was born because I was weak. I was tired of the tension between us, I thought in the one moment I said fine, but you have to be the one to schedule it, take him in and comfort him while they're doing it. I put my husbabnd before my son. I have regretted it ever since. By the way I successfully kept my second son intact. Partly from the intense regret and guilt that I didn't protect my son, when he was helpless. A week old. I have not looked at my husband the same way since then. What kind of man wants to pay someone hundreds of dollars to cut off the most sensitive part of their own newborn's genetalia. I lost so much respect for my husband over his own refusal to get outside of his own opinion. Your son can always choose to get circed one day. Even if he chooses to restore one day, it doesn't bring back what you two paid to have physically cut off.

I thought it would be better for my family to end the conflict and just handle it myself, then let it drag on. But I still hurt more than I can convey across internet space. It's difficult to forgive myself when I can't even claim I was ignorant, I didn't know better. I have to say I knew it was wrong, really really wrong, I would be so pissed off if someone did that to me, and I still let it happen.

It isn't a discussion. It isn't about respecting your husband's feelings or point of view. I got that confused. It's about doing what is right. It's about protecting your son. Your husband doesn't have to agree or understand. It isn't his body. Feel free to pm me with anything on this. It's just a lot harder to look at yourself with respect when you're holding your whimpering, crying newborn, knowing it's your fault he's circed.


Thank you for your input. I do think I'd feel that way too. I have spent some nights curled up crying, hugging my belly, thinking about the hurt that would be done to my child, the very thought hurts me so bad.









Quote:



Originally Posted by *Kabes*


My DH was pretty set against it too. Finally, I said fine on two conditions. 1- you arrange to watch one in person or watch two on video AND 2-you go with your son and comfort him while it's being done. Guess what?

My boys are intact.
He never even tried to download the videos. He couldn't stomach the idea of having to watch. 
It only makes sense that you have to see it to really understand what you are doing. And you should really understand before you make a life time decision for someone else's body.
Best wishes to you and your son.


I think my DH would actually go through with the watching, lol. Just so he could get his boy circed.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *ja mama*


Ask your husband how he'll feel if you don't want to have sex with him anymore because a circed penis is so traumatic to you after having to care for your baby's wound from it, and knowing your husband wanted it?

It completely destroyed our completely healthy sex life. How can you want to have sex with a man who insists on cutting your tiny baby's penis?


I doubt that would cause any good outcomes... I really have to try hard to make this about our son, not my husband. He gets extremely defensive and angry if I bring up how it may or may not affect sex (circing and being circ'ed in general).

Quote:



Originally Posted by *fruitful womb*


WOW!!! Your story sounds soooo much like mine, its frighting!!







:

One thing that is different, I didn't have MDC at that time to help me with this.









You do







!

Okay first off read this...
The Vulnerablilty of Men
This is for YOUR eyes only. It'll give you a good perspective on where he's coming from.

Then buy the Penn & Teller BullSh!t DVD for him for x-mas the episode on circumcision convinced my dh so much that he sent it to every single man he knows. (that is so not like my dh)

Tell him "We'll build for our son a healthy self esteem that locker room issues should ever be a problem, I mean, c'mon a guy looking at another guys penis? They'd be teased just for looking!!!"

Circumcision is a solution in search of a problem - Edward Wallerstein
Show him this slide show of the history of this practice.
The Medicalization of Circumcision 

Then say, "I don't want to be apart of that scam!!!"

If he never gets on board, he will even if it takes till your intact is grown. You have the power to protect him. You can say no. Just say no. Its really really easy. Say NO. ok









Take this Circ Refusal Form to a Lawyer and have him sign it. Make at least 4 copies of that form with his Signature. Have your OB sign it, and the Pediatrician sign it as well. Make no/circ stickers and put them on your ds's diapers. Make No Circ cards for the nursury bassinet at the hospital. Put a NoCirc Sign on your Postpartum Hospital Door. Do everything in your power to protect your ds!!! The cards, forms and stickers all can be made from that link. Scroll down to the bottom. It will give you options on how to create them.

Good Luck and GOOD FOR YOU FOR PROTECTING YOUR DS!!!! YOU ARE A GREAT MOM!!!!










Thank you.







I will keep repeating myself. It hurts me to see him so angry, but I do think it will hurt me a lot more to see my son circ'ed! I really really hope someday he gets it.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *llamalluv*


He *actually* said that to you?!










Oh yes, and more, lol. DH has issues with penises in general.... he's "okay" with anything that's just like him, but they gross him out in the worst way (yes even a circed penis). An uncirced one is just plain nasty to him.

::

Another thing my hubby said to me in arguments... which REALLY frustrated me... is, "I don't get why this is such a big deal to you, you're not a male, you don't have a penis. I do." Like he KNOWS how his son is going to feel about his own penis. I agree that he's a male so he sort of has a better understanding of what penises feel like and all that, but sheesh. I'm his MOTHER. Why wouldn't I have a strong opinion about surgery on my son??

I guess I'm just going to have to keep pushing links on him and refusing to agree. I'll get the Penn and Teller DVD (we have Netflix) and watch that episode together... if it's as good as you people say it is, maybe it'll have some impact on him. I'm just so incredibly frustrated that everything I've told him, everything I've read to him from books, everything I've argued, has been totally shot down/ignored by him and hasn't made a dent. Well, I shouldn't say that.... I think I *have* made him think about the "cleanliness" issue. He used to argue that it was cleaner and healthier to have a circed penis, but I think my links and statistics and quotes on how that is NOT true has made some change because he's stopped arguing that.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

I have a circ'ed DH and 2 circ'ed DSs...DH was adamant that #3 was getting circ'ed as well. In the end, I convinced him by telling him, lets wait. My non-circ'ed boy is as gross as my other 2 (meaning, he's not, there's nothing there to BE gross)...tell your DH it's your son's penis to decide. If HE thinks it's gross, then HE can cut it off.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

You can ask him, "How is it cleaner to care for a wound with Feces and Urine up against it?"

The foreskin was created to protect the glans! Its so simple to care for an intact penis. Its WAAY harder to care for a wound. An open wound on an infant whose immune system isn't even up and running yet, is vulnerable to MRSA which is more common than contracting HIV/AIDS!

Just wipe on the outside with warm water when caring for an intact penis. It is so simple. And never ever retract it!!!


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

Hey Nat, Ive been thinking about this for you for a long time, I really wished for a girl for you so you could just avoid this whole thing. But I dont want to at all take away from celebrating Devin. sigh

Ok so, I think you should, if you havent already tried this, is come from the angle of how its traumatic right after birth and could affect your breastfeeding success and how you all would feel if anything at all went wrong. Find the stats of complications, I know they are around here somewhere. Play up that it can always be done, if your son chooses he wants to in the future but it can never be undone. Why cant he let his son decide for himself? That kinda thing. I think DH is stuck on your son as "your son" or property and not his own person, he can always decide to have it done later if he wants to. And he gets pain meds and an understanding that a newborn does not.

I have a feeling and I hope on all hopes that I am right, but after seeing Devin a while just the way he is, Den might come around and just accept him like that, like right now hes just a theoretical son. If that makes any sense. I think, knowing you, that you would be so regretful if you let this happen and you didnt want. I really dont want that pain and torment for you. You were one of the ones on my xanga that convinced me to not do it to my son, many years ago, remember that?

Anyway, I say go for the what if angle of the damage that can be done as a newborn, how it can always be done later if your son chooses, and if Den is admitting that his thoughts are not researched based and rational, he really wants this to be the one thing he gets his way on? Ugh Im sorry that makes no sense.









Well. Im here for you, I hope this can be worked out for you guys.














:


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
I have a circ'ed DH and 2 circ'ed DSs...DH was adamant that #3 was getting circ'ed as well. In the end, I convinced him by telling him, lets wait. My non-circ'ed boy is as gross as my other 2 (meaning, he's not, there's nothing there to BE gross)...tell your DH it's your son's penis to decide. If HE thinks it's gross, then HE can cut it off.

Yeah... I think all penises are weird, no matter what, lol. So DH making comparisons and placing one "type" above the other in looks just makes no sense to me! And I fully agree... let the kiddo decide for himself.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
You can ask him, "How is it cleaner to care for a wound with Feces and Urine up against it?"

The foreskin was created to protect the glans! Its so simple to care for an intact penis. Its WAAY harder to care for a wound. An open wound on an infant whose immune system isn't even up and running yet, is vulnerable to MRSA which is more common than contracting HIV/AIDS!

Just wipe on the outside with warm water when caring for an intact penis. It is so simple. And never ever retract it!!!









Thanks for that link! Very useful. And yeah, when I started thinking about an open wound in a DIAPER I realized that really cannot be a good thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *+stella+* 
Hey Nat, Ive been thinking about this for you for a long time, I really wished for a girl for you so you could just avoid this whole thing. But I dont want to at all take away from celebrating Devin. sigh

Ok so, I think you should, if you havent already tried this, is come from the angle of how its traumatic right after birth and could affect your breastfeeding success and how you all would feel if anything at all went wrong. Find the stats of complications, I know they are around here somewhere. Play up that it can always be done, if your son chooses he wants to in the future but it can never be undone. Why cant he let his son decide for himself? That kinda thing. I think DH is stuck on your son as "your son" or property and not his own person, he can always decide to have it done later if he wants to. And he gets pain meds and an understanding that a newborn does not.

I have a feeling and I hope on all hopes that I am right, but after seeing Devin a while just the way he is, Den might come around and just accept him like that, like right now hes just a theoretical son. If that makes any sense. I think, knowing you, that you would be so regretful if you let this happen and you didnt want. I really dont want that pain and torment for you. You were one of the ones on my xanga that convinced me to not do it to my son, many years ago, remember that?

Anyway, I say go for the what if angle of the damage that can be done as a newborn, how it can always be done later if your son chooses, and if Den is admitting that his thoughts are not researched based and rational, he really wants this to be the one thing he gets his way on? Ugh Im sorry that makes no sense.









Well. Im here for you, I hope this can be worked out for you guys.














:

It took me a minute to realize who you were, lol! Hiya hon! I was one of the ones who convinced you not to? That's funny. I don't remember that! I know, I was really really hoping for a girl so we could avoid all of this.... I'm thrilled with a boy in EVERY other way, but man.... ugh. I really like your thoughts though. Good arguments. You just sparked a couple other ideas in my head, as well.


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

doh sorry, i thought i had posted to you here before and ya knew it was me, lol. I should link you to that post, I was thinking of not doing it and you said something like, "if its not broke, dont fix it" or "as nature intended it to be" or something. i should look it up. was a long time ago, when i used to post some.

didnt mean to freak ya out.


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *+stella+* 
doh sorry, i thought i had posted to you here before and ya knew it was me, lol. I should link you to that post, I was thinking of not doing it and you said something like, "if its not broke, dont fix it" or "as nature intended it to be" or something. i should look it up. was a long time ago, when i used to post some.

didnt mean to freak ya out.

Yeah, that's always been my general atittude, LOL. And you didn't freak me out... just left me puzzled as I was trying to place you.







(I have several friends who I know are on MDC.)


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## areseepee (Sep 6, 2007)

all you or he has to do is go on www.youtube.com and watch a circumcision video. It makes me want to drop to my knees and cry just thinking about it. It needs to be stopped but parents cling to ignorance because it's so painful to admit that it's horrible. At some point you have to have the courage to break the cycle of mutilation and protect the future generations.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ctdoula* 
I'm very sorry you're dealing with this. I just wanted to give you one piece of info. I teach childbirth classes in MA (Baystate Medical Ctr) and the circ rate there is about 50%. Not great, but definatly not the majority (obviously). You can get the rates at any hospital in MA by law. Knowing that it's not the majority anymore and that either way he'll have friends that are the same may help.

Yeah that. I know intact adults in New England as well. It's definitely not as popular around here as you seem to think.
My husband is circ'd but all 3 of our boys are intact. I think once he sees his perfect son that he will not be so "repulsed" by a normal penis. At least I hope.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
Another thing my hubby said to me in arguments... which REALLY frustrated me... is, "I don't get why this is such a big deal to you, you're not a male, you don't have a penis. I do." Like he KNOWS how his son is going to feel about his own penis. I agree that he's a male so he sort of has a better understanding of what penises feel like and all that, but sheesh.

This is such a silly argument for a heterosexual male to make. In all reality a woman is going to have much more experiences with penises than a man, who usually only has experience with his own.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

It isn't about your dh though. It's not his penis you are talking about. I think the fact he is begging you to cut off part of your son's body shows how deeply circumcision wounds. His ego is way too wrapped up in his son being cut like him and I think that's a protective response for a lot of circumcised men. If it's done to their sons as well then they don't have to think about it, ya know. I wish your dh could take several steps back and realize it isn't about him or his penis ect. I am saying this with a compassionate tone, not snarky at all (I know it can be hard to tell).

If it does come down to it I hope you will protect your son because he can't protect himself. A baby's body parts should never be sacrificed for marital harmony.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Your husband is trying to force you to make (what you know is) a bad decision for your son; and he's so un-informed that the only path he can take to try and get you to agree; is to throw a tantrum over it. He needs to re-evaluate the way he's going about this subject; because this is a bad way to start parenting a helpless child. Your son needs his parents protection, and that starts with making _informed_ choices.

I think you need to tell him that you want to come to a conclusion together, but that he's given you no solid reason in favor of circumcision. Simply stating that "everyone else is circ'd here" would be grounds for a response like "if it's that important to you that he fits in based on his penis, then we'll move to a different state".

If he is unwilling to listen objectively; to put forth his pro-circ reasons properly and have a discussion about it; and to really put weight into the information you give him too; then you need to simply say "sorry if it upsets you, but I'm not giving my consent in this."

Circumcision is not something that can be undone.

Perhaps it would help if you "talked" it out through writing. You could email (?) back and forth about it so you both have time to re-read what you write before you send it; to keep a smooth and productive discussion going.

I'm pretty good for putting together information about this with links and stuff (click here to read my latest response on anti-circumcision. It's the quoted section), so if you want me to do that for you, PM me and I'll send you something for him to read to get the ball rolling.

I'm sorry this has been difficult for you, but sometimes as a parent you have to walk a hard line. This won't be the first time you disagree, and if he won't work with you productively; then you'll just have to stand your ground.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm always so baffled to read these threads. Coming from a country where nobody circs, it is strange to see how you mothers have to collect lots and lots of arguments for NOT cirumcising your sons. I can't see that it's anything to argue about, as there is absolutely no reason why you should circ in the first place. He's the one who should be looking for arguments FOR circing, not the other way around!

Circumcision is completely destructive and unneccesary. If everything goes well, your son will first go through lots of completely pointless and incomprehensible pain, then end up with a smaller, less sensitive penis than nature intended. And that is if it goes well! - there are no benefits at all, and it might just not go well, in which case he gets double the pain and an even more ruined penis and sex life.

(I'm sorry if you think it's too harsh to say that circing ruins the sex life of your sons, but as the foreskin is a really important part of the penis and very useful in sexual stimulation both in masturbation and intercourse, I can't see it any other way.)

I would rather leave my husband than let him harm my son, especially in a way that is extremely painful and can't EVER be rectified.

I think you should just say NO. That's all you need to do to protect your baby from the insane cultural practice that circumcision is. Your son will be happy that you did!


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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't know if this point has been brought up but...

It seems odd to me that a man would want to put his very speacial baby in danger of infection, botched penis, or even death after trying so hard to get pregnant in the first place.

IVF and all the emotional roller coasters that go along with the whole process would make me want to treat this baby extra careful. Maybe that's just me...

FWIW my DH is almost 40 and is intact. He has never, ever had an issue with being made fun of about his penis. No other young man even peeked at his penis in the gym as far as he knows certainly no body has said anything. Sex is amazing and I have never seen a touch of anything yucky on him. And we grew up in CT and all around New England...Your DH's arguments has many, many holes in it.

Just say no and stop talking about it. He'll get over it. The love he has for his perfect baby will trump any thoughts of hacking is penis all up.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

I think your husband will get used to it. There honestly is nothing gross or yucky about a baby boy's intact penis. My son is 4 and I have never seen anything I would call "smegma". He gets regular baths and that's it, there is absolutely no special care or attention needed.

You can also tell your husband that your son can decide for himself when he is older, and when he can have appropriate pain relief during and after the procedure, and when he won't be peeing/pooping all over the wound. My nephew was circ'ed at age 12 (for dubious reasons, unfortunately) but it was apparently pretty minor and he healed quickly and it just was not the big deal it's made out to be, to be circed later than infancy. That may be the best argument to make to your husband for now, that it really is possible and perhaps even preferable to delay the procedure. Then hopefully over time when he sees how normal the intact penis is, he'll just be used to it and realize it is really not such a big deal.


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## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

I really think you need to screw up your courage and watch the circ videos with him. Sit him down and turn them on. I think you should watch the Prepuce video from DOC (so he knows what the foreskin really is) and both gomco and plastibel procedures with sound so he can hear how the baby shrieks in agony with every step, every snip of the scissors. It's nauseating and makes me shake but I've watched them because it's good to know really what it is so you can argue against it and so you can show people how you have been effected just by watching. Most people just don't know what the foreskin is and how they take it off.

Laura


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

What would happen if you tried to turn your dh's arguments around? Have him imagine what it would feel like to him if you were having a girl and said something like, "I think natural vulvas are disgusting and dirty, and I would like to have our newborn daughter's labia surgically trimmed so that she can be cleaner and have a really cute vulva. Oh, it's no big deal that she gets no pain relief during or after the cutting and that we have to pull the scar tissue apart daily to keep her vulva from closing up -- it's all just part of 'what you have to do' to have a cute and tidy vulva!"


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

I feel like I should respond to everyone, since you have all given such wonderful advice!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *areseepee* 
all you or he has to do is go on www.youtube.com and watch a circumcision video. It makes me want to drop to my knees and cry just thinking about it. It needs to be stopped but parents cling to ignorance because it's so painful to admit that it's horrible. At some point you have to have the courage to break the cycle of mutilation and protect the future generations.

Well... I guess it's worth a try. I don't know if it would have the effect I would hope for (he says it's over quickly, HE doesn't remember being circed, it's just something that gets done, etc). But anything's worth a try. I just hope I can avoid watching them myself because man oh man.... just makes me sick.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganf* 
Yeah that. I know intact adults in New England as well. It's definitely not as popular around here as you seem to think.
My husband is circ'd but all 3 of our boys are intact. I think once he sees his perfect son that he will not be so "repulsed" by a normal penis. At least I hope.









Well I was looking up statistics (cirp.org)... New England was clearly the "leader" in circumcision rates. I am very happy to know that it's not as popular as I was led to believe!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganf* 
This is such a silly argument for a heterosexual male to make. In all reality a woman is going to have much more experiences with penises than a man, who usually only has experience with his own.

That is true!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheacoby* 
It isn't about your dh though. It's not his penis you are talking about. I think the fact he is begging you to cut off part of your son's body shows how deeply circumcision wounds. His ego is way too wrapped up in his son being cut like him and I think that's a protective response for a lot of circumcised men. If it's done to their sons as well then they don't have to think about it, ya know. I wish your dh could take several steps back and realize it isn't about him or his penis ect. I am saying this with a compassionate tone, not snarky at all (I know it can be hard to tell).

If it does come down to it I hope you will protect your son because he can't protect himself. A baby's body parts should never be sacrificed for marital harmony.

No, I totally get what you are saying and I fully agree. DH's views have been very twisted... and he feels he HAS to cling to his believe that circumcision is the only right thing to do. It's not that he wants to intentionally inflict harm on his son... but he NEEDS his son to be just like him. There are many wounds on my husband's soul regarding sex and penises.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Your husband is trying to force you to make (what you know is) a bad decision for your son; and he's so un-informed that the only path he can take to try and get you to agree; is to throw a tantrum over it. He needs to re-evaluate the way he's going about this subject; because this is a bad way to start parenting a helpless child. Your son needs his parents protection, and that starts with making _informed_ choices.

Yes! That is it exactly! When I come at him calmly with statistics and logic he throws a tantrum.... because he's backed into a corner and knows it and the only response he has is emotional, as he has NO logic to back it up.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
I think you need to tell him that you want to come to a conclusion together, but that he's given you no solid reason in favor of circumcision




I like this response. Very calm, very rational.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Circumcision is not something that can be undone.

Worth repeating many times to my DH (and to myself, I suppose!).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Perhaps it would help if you "talked" it out through writing. You could email (?) back and forth about it so you both have time to re-read what you write before you send it; to keep a smooth and productive discussion going.

Sometimes we do write... while he's at work. (Though it feels a bit weird to have a conversation about circumcision while he's at work, through his work email!) But he will send me links to news articles (you know the type... where they say circumcision prevents cancer and other bull)... I'll send him links refuting it, etc. And it DOES keep the conversation nice and calm.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
I'm pretty good for putting together information about this with links and stuff (click here to read my latest response on anti-circumcision. It's the quoted section), so if you want me to do that for you, PM me and I'll send you something for him to read to get the ball rolling.

Thanks, I'll let you know!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
I'm sorry this has been difficult for you, but sometimes as a parent you have to walk a hard line. This won't be the first time you disagree, and if he won't work with you productively; then you'll just have to stand your ground.









Thank you. Most of the time I like to think of myself as pretty open to compromise and working things out (though DH may disagree with that sometimes! Okay, so I can be a bit pushy...) But... like you said... this is one of those times where I'm going to have to just walk that line and be a b*tch if II need to be. And I hate doing that. But maybe it doesn't mean being a b*tch... maybe it just means standing firm and calmly repeating myself that I cannot and will not agree and he has given me no reason to.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 
I'm always so baffled to read these threads. Coming from a country where nobody circs, it is strange to see how you mothers have to collect lots and lots of arguments for NOT cirumcising your sons. I can't see that it's anything to argue about, as there is absolutely no reason why you should circ in the first place. He's the one who should be looking for arguments FOR circing, not the other way around!

Circumcision is completely destructive and unneccesary. If everything goes well, your son will first go through lots of completely pointless and incomprehensible pain, then end up with a smaller, less sensitive penis than nature intended. And that is if it goes well! - there are no benefits at all, and it might just not go well, in which case he gets double the pain and an even more ruined penis and sex life.

(I'm sorry if you think it's too harsh to say that circing ruins the sex life of your sons, but as the foreskin is a really important part of the penis and very useful in sexual stimulation both in masturbation and intercourse, I can't see it any other way.)

I would rather leave my husband than let him harm my son, especially in a way that is extremely painful and can't EVER be rectified.

I think you should just say NO. That's all you need to do to protect your baby from the insane cultural practice that circumcision is. Your son will be happy that you did!









Well, my DH would disagree that circing ruins a man's sex life, lol. He cannot comment on mine (and neither can I, because I've only been with one man so I have no idea how "else" it could be). But I fully agree with you. I'm Canadian, not that that makes a difference, but it just seems such a STRANGE custom to me. I'm simply against things that are cosmetic, unnecessary, and permanent.... and circumcision is all three. I am not religious, but I believe very strongly that our bodies are how they are for a reason. I do not want mine being messed with - I do not want my child's being messed with. I really wish the U.S. wasn't so dang backwards in so many things. (And it really irritates me, since I MOVED here voluntarily! DH lived here.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2crazykids* 
I don't know if this point has been brought up but...

It seems odd to me that a man would want to put his very speacial baby in danger of infection, botched penis, or even death after trying so hard to get pregnant in the first place.

IVF and all the emotional roller coasters that go along with the whole process would make me want to treat this baby extra careful. Maybe that's just me...

FWIW my DH is almost 40 and is intact. He has never, ever had an issue with being made fun of about his penis. No other young man even peeked at his penis in the gym as far as he knows certainly no body has said anything. Sex is amazing and I have never seen a touch of anything yucky on him. And we grew up in CT and all around New England...Your DH's arguments has many, many holes in it.

Just say no and stop talking about it. He'll get over it. The love he has for his perfect baby will trump any thoughts of hacking is penis all up.

Well... it's all in the perspective. To my DH he is not putting our child at risk... he is "saving" him from a lifetime of "grossness" and torment. It's twisted, but I can see how he thinks he's doing a good thing. And the fact that our child is an IVF baby and very precious... certainly makes *me* cling even tighter to him. I have gone through so much to get pregnant with him... so much medical intervention... that I want EVERYTHING to be as natural and "normal" as possible on the way out. But certainly, talking up the risks of circing and how scared I am is worthwhile. They are small risks, but like I told my DH before, I do not want ANY risks. I don't even eat undercooked meat while pregnant, even though the risk is miniscule. We're just paranoid. So yes. A good point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday* 
I think your husband will get used to it. There honestly is nothing gross or yucky about a baby boy's intact penis. My son is 4 and I have never seen anything I would call "smegma". He gets regular baths and that's it, there is absolutely no special care or attention needed.

You can also tell your husband that your son can decide for himself when he is older, and when he can have appropriate pain relief during and after the procedure, and when he won't be peeing/pooping all over the wound. My nephew was circ'ed at age 12 (for dubious reasons, unfortunately) but it was apparently pretty minor and he healed quickly and it just was not the big deal it's made out to be, to be circed later than infancy. That may be the best argument to make to your husband for now, that it really is possible and perhaps even preferable to delay the procedure. Then hopefully over time when he sees how normal the intact penis is, he'll just be used to it and realize it is really not such a big deal.

Yes, thank you! The more I hear from moms of uncirced boys, the more sure I am that uncirced penises are no trouble at all. I don't get what the big deal is, really. I said to hubby, you just wash it with soap! If our son can't do that, he has other issues! lol And reminding him that it can always be done later if our son needs/wants to.... certainly a point in my favor.

I want to thank all of you for responding.... you're certainly making me feel much calmer and more rational about all of this. I had just gotten to the point of being SO frustrated that I had stopped thinking about it. (And we haven't talked about it since we found out we're having a boy, and the resulting discussion that emerged.)


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sijae* 
I really think you need to screw up your courage and watch the circ videos with him. Sit him down and turn them on. I think you should watch the Prepuce video from DOC (so he knows what the foreskin really is) and both gomco and plastibel procedures with sound so he can hear how the baby shrieks in agony with every step, every snip of the scissors. It's nauseating and makes me shake but I've watched them because it's good to know really what it is so you can argue against it and so you can show people how you have been effected just by watching. Most people just don't know what the foreskin is and how they take it off.

Laura

You are probably right.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
What would happen if you tried to turn your dh's arguments around? Have him imagine what it would feel like to him if you were having a girl and said something like, "I think natural vulvas are disgusting and dirty, and I would like to have our newborn daughter's labia surgically trimmed so that she can be cleaner and have a really cute vulva. Oh, it's no big deal that she gets no pain relief during or after the cutting and that we have to pull the scar tissue apart daily to keep her vulva from closing up -- it's all just part of 'what you have to do' to have a cute and tidy vulva!"

I sort of tried that... but it didn't have much weight because it was a made-up scenario. I'll have to figure out how to word it better and try again.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Your husband is trying to force you to make (what you know is) a bad decision for your son; and he's so un-informed that the only path he can take to try and get you to agree; is to throw a tantrum over it. He needs to re-evaluate the way he's going about this subject; because this is a bad way to start parenting a helpless child. Your son needs his parents protection, and that starts with making _informed_ choices.

I think you need to tell him that you want to come to a conclusion together, but that he's given you no solid reason in favor of circumcision. Simply stating that "everyone else is circ'd here" would be grounds for a response like "if it's that important to you that he fits in based on his penis, then we'll move to a different state".

If he is unwilling to listen objectively; to put forth his pro-circ reasons properly and have a discussion about it; and to really put weight into the information you give him too; then you need to simply say "sorry if it upsets you, but I'm not giving my consent in this."

Circumcision is not something that can be undone.

Perhaps it would help if you "talked" it out through writing. You could email (?) back and forth about it so you both have time to re-read what you write before you send it; to keep a smooth and productive discussion going.

I'm pretty good for putting together information about this with links and stuff (click here to read my latest response on anti-circumcision. It's the quoted section), so if you want me to do that for you, PM me and I'll send you something for him to read to get the ball rolling.

I'm sorry this has been difficult for you, but sometimes as a parent you have to walk a hard line. This won't be the first time you disagree, and if he won't work with you productively; then you'll just have to stand your ground.









Really good advice above. I will add two things:

1) the decision to circ does not have to happen when your son is an infant, it can be doen anytime, so a compromise might be to agree to revisit it later...

2) Your husbands feelings are not reasonable arguments for RIC. They are simply feelings. The true factors should be:

Physicians have legal and ethical duties to their child-patient to render competent necessary care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else, including a parent, expresses.

The child has a legal right to bodily integrity. Upon reaching adulthood, the child may have a right to sue to recover damages for injuries or unnecessary surgery sustained in childhood.

The parent must ethically and legally make decisions for the child based solely on the best interests of the child.

Circumcision amputates approximately 50 percent of the heavily innervated skin and mucosa of the penis, tissue that is a specific erogenous zone. Excision of the foreskin renders the remaining skin taut and immovable, eliminates its protective, sensory, and sexual functions, and destroys the gliding action of the foreskin, changing the natural mechanics of
normal human reproduction.

Circumcision puts the patient at risk of surgical mishap, adhesions, meatitis, meatal ulceration, infections, bleeding, and even death. The recent fast spread of MRSA in the US. is an example. Circumcision exposes the infant to risk of exposure to MRSA and other antibiotic resistent bacteria.
While MRSA and other Antibiotic resistent bacteria can be spread by skin contact, they become ever more dangerous if they enter through a cut or open wound. Some recently circumcised boys have died from MRSA when their bodies did not respond to anti-biotic treatment. Others required treatment with the most recent experimental antibiotics. One boy who recently recovered now has an enlarged heart; that will cause lifetime consequences for him. The most recent statistics indicate that in 2007,
more persons have died from MRSA in the US than from AIDS.

Circumcision is an extremely painful procedure with long-lasting post-operative pain.

There is absolutely no reason why circumcision can not be done later, when the child is old enough to make a legally informed decision. Potentially this causes less harm to sexual function and appearance, based upon typical growth patterns and the Doctor's ability to predict outcomes before sexual maturity.

Until he is willing to discuss these issues and give reasons why the benefits outweigh the negatives, he is just being irrational. Irrational decisions are rarely good ones.


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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:

Circumcision puts the patient at risk of surgical mishap, adhesions, meatitis, meatal ulceration, infections, bleeding, and even death. The recent fast spread of MRSA in the US. is an example. Circumcision exposes the infant to risk of exposure to MRSA and other antibiotic resistent bacteria.
While MRSA and other Antibiotic resistent bacteria can be spread by skin contact, they become ever more dangerous if they enter through a cut or open wound. Some recently circumcised boys have died from MRSA when their bodies did not respond to anti-biotic treatment. Others required treatment with the most recent experimental antibiotics. One boy who recently recovered now has an enlarged heart; that will cause lifetime consequences for him. The most recent statistics indicate that in 2007,
more persons have died from MRSA in the US than from AIDS.
This right here would seal the deal for me if I were on the fence about circing.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
Well, my DH would disagree that circing ruins a man's sex life, lol.

I wish my dh could disagree, too.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=469671

Read the whole thread to see how many women said that they had had partners who sounded just like my dh.

Circing is playing russian roulette with your son's future sex life.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 

No.... mostly because I can't bear to watch. :/



Re: the video - Try not to let it bother you so much. I know it's a horrible thing to see but...you watching or not watching it won't change what happen to that baby. It was already done to him and watching it won't inflict all the pain onto him again. But- watching it might prevent the same horrific pain from happening to _another_ child!

I don't know you or your personal dynamic with your husband and I'm hoping I don't offend you. But this would be a non-negotiable issue with my spouse. Frankly, I'd leave my husband before I'd consent to circumcise my son. Just as I would leave my husband if he tried to beat my children or harm me or them in anyway. I guess I was fortunate to have a husband, although cut himself, who understood that genital cutting was wrong and unnecessary. I understand that you don't want fighting or tension between you and your spouse but I personally think it's a mother's job to protect her child at all costs. For me, I'm accountable to my God and my children and anybody else can work through their own issues that they may have with me or leave, including my husband. I'd convey that I'm willing to compromise on other issues but absolutely not on cutting my son.
And as far as him saying a natural penis is disgusting, what will he think if your child has a birth defect like a cleft palate or a huge birthmark covering his face? Will he be disgusted by that or will he still love your baby? I would hope he'd love and accept your child no matter what and since the intact penis is a natural body part he's born with, why would he want to subject your baby to pain and possible surgical complications?
As someone who has witnessed circ too many times, please don't give in and allow your son to be cut just to appease your spouse. Maybe if you kindly put your foot down and say it's no longer open for discussion your dh will have time to work through whatever issues he has with it before the baby comes and therefore there won't be the tension over it at baby's birth.
Good luck. Stress isn't good for a pregnant mama. I'm sorry you're going through this. Good thoughts are being sent your way!


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
Maybe if you kindly put your foot down and say it's no longer open for discussion your dh will have time to work through whatever issues he has with it before the baby comes and therefore there won't be the tension over it at baby's birth.









:


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
[T]his would be a non-negotiable issue with my spouse. Frankly, I'd leave my husband before I'd consent to circumcise my son. Just as I would leave my husband if he tried to beat my children or harm me or them in anyway.

I'm accountable to my God and my children and anybody else can work through their own issues that they may have with me or leave, including my husband. I'd convey that I'm willing to compromise on other issues but absolutely not on cutting my son.

And as far as him saying a natural penis is disgusting, what will he think if your child has a birth defect like a cleft palate or a huge birthmark covering his face? Will he be disgusted by that or will he still love your baby? I would hope he'd love and accept your child no matter what and since the intact penis is a natural body part he's born with, why would he want to subject your baby to pain and possible surgical complications?

As someone who has witnessed circ too many times, please don't give in and allow your son to be cut just to appease your spouse. Maybe if you kindly put your foot down and say it's no longer open for discussion your dh will have time to work through whatever issues he has with it before the baby comes and therefore there won't be the tension over it at baby's birth.
Good luck. Stress isn't good for a pregnant mama. I'm sorry you're going through this. Good thoughts are being sent your way!
















_THAT WAS BRILLIANT!!!_







You have a good head on your shoulders Night_Nurse!!!


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
Maybe if you kindly put your foot down and say it's no longer open for discussion your dh will have time to work through whatever issues he has with it before the baby comes and therefore there won't be the tension over it at baby's birth.











I can't see that there's any point in saying that you will discuss it later or that you want the decision to be made by both of you, as it's not a matter that it's possible to compromise on. Either he's intact, or he's not - there is no middle way.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You're the mama. Say, "over my dead body." and mean it.

A nicer way to say it would be, "I'm sorry; I just can't let you do this to our son." And repeat, repeat, repeat. (with lots of crying, if necessary)

Here's an article for you to read about why it's so important for you to find your mama instincts and stand up for your boy:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

(and read my signature.)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

More thoughts......what if he wanted to cut off part of your son's big toe? Would you even consider it, just to keep your dh happy? Or would you look at him like he's crazy and say "NO WAY!" regardless of whether or not that made him mad?

It's the same thing. Protect your son.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Lunarmagic, congratulations on your pregnancy. I'm sorry you're dealing with this stress during what should be a time of joyful anticipation.

I have 2 sons. The first was circumcised because I honestly thought it was something you just "had" to do. I felt in my heart that it was terribly wrong, but had absolutley no knowledge or information to back up my gut feeling, so I let it happen. The guilt has been almost unbearable at times--and I didn't even KNOW ANY BETTER! I cannot imagine how much worse the guilt would have been if I had known how unnecessary it all was.

Our second son is intact. I had learned a lot from here and from my first experience, and I shared my desire to leave #2 intact with my husband. My DH acted a lot like yours. It was the only time we ever fought, the only thing we couldn't resolve. I felt torn between my child and my husband. At one point, I even wondered if an intact famaily would be more important to my son than an intact body, because I was afraid we might split up over it. In the end, I just dropped it. I didn't talk about it for the last 3 months of my pregnancy. And when the baby was born, I just said NO. That was it. When DH asked about it, I shook my head, and that was that. And he let it go. He never came out and agreed with me, but he no longer pressed the matter.

I will say that the mere fact that he was arguing for cutting the baby harmed our sex life. I felt, If I can't trust him not to hurt our baby's privates, how can I trust him with my privates? There are a lot of things we used to do that I can't do anymore.

Sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I believe that some circumcised men will never be able to admit to themselves or anyone else that circumcision should end with them. I think on some level, to admit that would be like accusing their own parents of raping them. or calling themselves victims of abuse, or accepting that they are damaged in some way--in some sexual way. However, I think these men can and do come to an acceptance of leaving their children intact--as long as they can point to their wives and say "It was _her_ decision." So, I vote for letting it go, refusing to allow it, and not talking about it anymore.
But, just in case something should happen (like a C-section), make sure your doctor and OB know ahead of time that you're refusing circ.


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greg B* 
Really good advice above. I will add two things:

1) the decision to circ does not have to happen when your son is an infant, it can be doen anytime, so a compromise might be to agree to revisit it later...

2) Your husbands feelings are not reasonable arguments for RIC. They are simply feelings. The true factors should be:

Physicians have legal and ethical duties to their child-patient to render competent necessary care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else, including a parent, expresses.

The child has a legal right to bodily integrity. Upon reaching adulthood, the child may have a right to sue to recover damages for injuries or unnecessary surgery sustained in childhood.

The parent must ethically and legally make decisions for the child based solely on the best interests of the child.

Circumcision amputates approximately 50 percent of the heavily innervated skin and mucosa of the penis, tissue that is a specific erogenous zone. Excision of the foreskin renders the remaining skin taut and immovable, eliminates its protective, sensory, and sexual functions, and destroys the gliding action of the foreskin, changing the natural mechanics of
normal human reproduction.

Circumcision puts the patient at risk of surgical mishap, adhesions, meatitis, meatal ulceration, infections, bleeding, and even death. The recent fast spread of MRSA in the US. is an example. Circumcision exposes the infant to risk of exposure to MRSA and other antibiotic resistent bacteria.
While MRSA and other Antibiotic resistent bacteria can be spread by skin contact, they become ever more dangerous if they enter through a cut or open wound. Some recently circumcised boys have died from MRSA when their bodies did not respond to anti-biotic treatment. Others required treatment with the most recent experimental antibiotics. One boy who recently recovered now has an enlarged heart; that will cause lifetime consequences for him. The most recent statistics indicate that in 2007,
more persons have died from MRSA in the US than from AIDS.

Circumcision is an extremely painful procedure with long-lasting post-operative pain.

There is absolutely no reason why circumcision can not be done later, when the child is old enough to make a legally informed decision. Potentially this causes less harm to sexual function and appearance, based upon typical growth patterns and the Doctor's ability to predict outcomes before sexual maturity.

Until he is willing to discuss these issues and give reasons why the benefits outweigh the negatives, he is just being irrational. Irrational decisions are rarely good ones.

Thank you for all of this. It has been my position with my husband all along that, if he came to me with some solid arguments and facts I would certainly discuss it... but "because I want to" does NOT fly with me, especially in light of all the research I've done. It's just not good enough, and I don't see how he can think it is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I wish my dh could disagree, too.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=469671

Read the whole thread to see how many women said that they had had partners who sounded just like my dh.

Circing is playing russian roulette with your son's future sex life.

I don't think they ever will disagree though... at least my husband. Admitting that something could be wrong with him? Far too scary. But I can certainly understand the truth behind it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Night_Nurse* 
Re: the video - Try not to let it bother you so much. I know it's a horrible thing to see but...you watching or not watching it won't change what happen to that baby. It was already done to him and watching it won't inflict all the pain onto him again. But- watching it might prevent the same horrific pain from happening to _another_ child!

I don't know you or your personal dynamic with your husband and I'm hoping I don't offend you. But this would be a non-negotiable issue with my spouse. Frankly, I'd leave my husband before I'd consent to circumcise my son. Just as I would leave my husband if he tried to beat my children or harm me or them in anyway. I guess I was fortunate to have a husband, although cut himself, who understood that genital cutting was wrong and unnecessary. I understand that you don't want fighting or tension between you and your spouse but I personally think it's a mother's job to protect her child at all costs. For me, I'm accountable to my God and my children and anybody else can work through their own issues that they may have with me or leave, including my husband. I'd convey that I'm willing to compromise on other issues but absolutely not on cutting my son.
And as far as him saying a natural penis is disgusting, what will he think if your child has a birth defect like a cleft palate or a huge birthmark covering his face? Will he be disgusted by that or will he still love your baby? I would hope he'd love and accept your child no matter what and since the intact penis is a natural body part he's born with, why would he want to subject your baby to pain and possible surgical complications?
As someone who has witnessed circ too many times, please don't give in and allow your son to be cut just to appease your spouse. Maybe if you kindly put your foot down and say it's no longer open for discussion your dh will have time to work through whatever issues he has with it before the baby comes and therefore there won't be the tension over it at baby's birth.
Good luck. Stress isn't good for a pregnant mama. I'm sorry you're going through this. Good thoughts are being sent your way!

Yes... I truly hope he's able to work through his issues. I have really tried to help him but he gets upset about me doing that. I think it's something he needs to do on his own... after I've said my piece/shown him the evidence, then let it just sit and simmer. I can only hope he'll come to understand where I'm coming from someday.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rabbitmum* 









I can't see that there's any point in saying that you will discuss it later or that you want the decision to be made by both of you, as it's not a matter that it's possible to compromise on. Either he's intact, or he's not - there is no middle way.

Yes, this is my thought. I don't want to leave the door open like that or he WILL expect to re-discuss it in the future.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
You're the mama. Say, "over my dead body." and mean it.

A nicer way to say it would be, "I'm sorry; I just can't let you do this to our son." And repeat, repeat, repeat. (with lots of crying, if necessary)

Here's an article for you to read about why it's so important for you to find your mama instincts and stand up for your boy:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

(and read my signature.)

One night in bed I was crying horribly and I said to my husband, "I wish I could give you this to make you happy, but I CAN'T, I CAN'T do that to my son. I just can't do that."

Thank you for posting that link.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
More thoughts......what if he wanted to cut off part of your son's big toe? Would you even consider it, just to keep your dh happy? Or would you look at him like he's crazy and say "NO WAY!" regardless of whether or not that made him mad?

It's the same thing. Protect your son.

Good point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Lunarmagic, congratulations on your pregnancy. I'm sorry you're dealing with this stress during what should be a time of joyful anticipation.

I have 2 sons. The first was circumcised because I honestly thought it was something you just "had" to do. I felt in my heart that it was terribly wrong, but had absolutley no knowledge or information to back up my gut feeling, so I let it happen. The guilt has been almost unbearable at times--and I didn't even KNOW ANY BETTER! I cannot imagine how much worse the guilt would have been if I had known how unnecessary it all was.

Our second son is intact. I had learned a lot from here and from my first experience, and I shared my desire to leave #2 intact with my husband. My DH acted a lot like yours. It was the only time we ever fought, the only thing we couldn't resolve. I felt torn between my child and my husband. At one point, I even wondered if an intact famaily would be more important to my son than an intact body, because I was afraid we might split up over it. In the end, I just dropped it. I didn't talk about it for the last 3 months of my pregnancy. And when the baby was born, I just said NO. That was it. When DH asked about it, I shook my head, and that was that. And he let it go. He never came out and agreed with me, but he no longer pressed the matter.

I will say that the mere fact that he was arguing for cutting the baby harmed our sex life. I felt, If I can't trust him not to hurt our baby's privates, how can I trust him with my privates? There are a lot of things we used to do that I can't do anymore.

Sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I believe that some circumcised men will never be able to admit to themselves or anyone else that circumcision should end with them. I think on some level, to admit that would be like accusing their own parents of raping them. or calling themselves victims of abuse, or accepting that they are damaged in some way--in some sexual way. However, I think these men can and do come to an acceptance of leaving their children intact--as long as they can point to their wives and say "It was _her_ decision." So, I vote for letting it go, refusing to allow it, and not talking about it anymore.
But, just in case something should happen (like a C-section), make sure your doctor and OB know ahead of time that you're refusing circ.

That's an interesting point... about how men can come to an acceptance if they can say their wife "made" them do it. Very good insight. I guess I will have to just put my foot down. I despise doing that. I'm a very empathetic person. Being around disharmony makes me very stressed and upset, so I always try to find a balance, a compromise. And we do this frequently with few issues. But like others have pointed out... there is no "compromise" in circ. It's yes or no. So I guess I'm just going to have to suck it up and live with his anger until he gets over it.


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
So I guess I'm just going to have to suck it up and live with his anger until he gets over it.











Good for you. He'll "get over it" a lot faster than you think.


----------



## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

I just had a minute to skim... I'm so sorry you are dealing with this- you need to be focusing on preparing for your beautiful birth and resting, relaxing, preparing. I went through a similar issue with dh (Jewish) and I remember the stress and anguish that it caused. our issue was not resolved till after ds's birth and that was tremedously more stressful. DH admits now that he made a bigger deal out of it than he really felt and really was just hoping the issue would go away and I'd just give in. Believe me, I thought about it 90% of the time and it barely registered to him except when we were in conflict. I wish I had pushed for it to be over sooner so I could have focused on other things, although every effort to protect my son was worth it-- no regrets about making the effort, just realized I had gotten closure sooner.

Can you simply heartfully tell him something like, 'THIS issue NEEDS to be reslolved NOW so that I can get on with my pregnancy focusing on positive things. This issue hurts me so much and if I 'give in' I WILL be destroyed by it. I know that. Because it is PURELY social reasons/not medical reasons you are compelled by it goes to the core of my being to stand up and protect my unborn baby in the tender early moments of his life. He needs to be showered with gentleness and love and circumcison, no matter how it is done cannot be a part of our sons 'gentle' birth experience. I know it is wrong and it will damage my relationship as wife and mother. And because you care so much about this pregnancy and want to support me so much, it hurts that you cannot see how this directly effects the nurturing and mothering we are so treasuring and looking forward to birthing with this baby.

To touch on some other things.....
I'm in MA and almost every one I know and am close to has left their boys intact. One 'crunchy' friend did circ and regrets her decision. Even most of my non-crunchy friends left their sons intact. And others that it has come up with (people i left ds with/dacare for example) have all been supportive or thought it a non issue.

As for the looks issue....
There are also some websites where you could compare botched circs-- even though dh believe this wouldn't happen-- obviously it sometimes does and no parent thinks it will happen to their child. Not to mention that the erect intact penis often looks similar to a circumcised one. There are also some sites that are better than others... most sites come across like porn. I can think of one natural man photograph site that is more tastefully/artfully done.

There are many other strategies you could take, your dh seems to have an issue regarding the looks of a penis- so I'd say that this could be regardless of status. With circumcision is he going to decide how his sons penis looks like and grill the doctor on exactly how his expectations are? But realistically he probably should. As I've seen on other boards, parents are often surprised by the circumsion results (too much skin left, adhesions, etc.) that all of these things should be discussed before hand... and frankly as soon as i realized that, there was no way I was going to 'decide' how my sons penis would look or decide which 'type' of circ (each with its own con list) was 'okay'.

Please continue to post and I'm sure we can touch on new issues or specific things that you and dh need to resolve this.

Bottom line is it is your sons body and intact is how babies are born. ((hugs))

Jessica


----------



## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 









Good for you. He'll "get over it" a lot faster than you think.

I agree w A&A and the siggie:
Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother.
Sadly, we have to fight so hard for our births to be gentle, from the issue of circumcision to all the standard interventions pushed that interfere with the normal process of birth

sometimes it helps dp's to understand when looking at the big picture of our birth culture- which i'm sure you will get w/ bradley.

good luck

Jessica


----------



## tammyswanson (Feb 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ja mama* 
It's about doing what is right. It's about protecting your son. Your husband doesn't have to agree or understand. It isn't his body. It's just a lot harder to look at yourself with respect when you're holding your whimpering, crying newborn, knowing it's your fault he's circed.









This is SO RIGHT ON THE MONEY! You are the mother, it's you who is the protector. Just like those lionesses who have to protect their cubs from being eaten by the male lions. I would not let him be mutilated because your DH has some serious issues about his own circ that he refuses to deal with. It's obvious that he was also deeply traumatized from his own circ and can't deal with it. Hence his strong reaction. It's a defense mechanism to keep him from realizing what was taken from him. It's a shame he can't overcome it for the sake of his defenseless baby.

Plus, how would you and he feel if something would go wrong? Most 'complications' are *not* reported and are blamed on other things...like hemorrhage or just about anything else. No circumciser wants to admit they caused a baby's death. And what a horrible way to die!


----------



## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
I agree w A&A and the siggie:
Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother.
Sadly, we have to fight so hard for our births to be gentle, from the issue of circumcision to all the standard interventions pushed that interfere with the normal process of birth

sometimes it helps dp's to understand when looking at the big picture of our birth culture- which i'm sure you will get w/ bradley.

good luck

Jessica


Yes, as Jessica and A&A posted, if it is any consolation, he will almost definitely "get over it" fairly quickly...

My DP was pretty much over it after the first few days (and I think he was worried about how to approach any criticism from his family or friends that expected us to circ...while he was doing diaper changes...etc)..
Originally, we were head to head on this issue... he was adamant about my DS being circ'd... I stood firm and would not sway or budge and said absolutely not, no negotiating. (I also cried about this, but did it out of his presence so that he would not think that he had any sort of influence on me emotionally regarding this issue whatsoever). I know it is hard, especially when you are pregnant and emotionally charged, but it might be best NOT to discuss this (AT ALL anymore, and at least not..) while you are upset (he may see this as a window of opportunity-thinking you will only put up with so much before you cave in)...

Fast forward almost three years and my DP is very one of the strongest advocates AGAINST routine infant circumcision now.

It seems as if you are confident in following your intuition not to circ. I would be lying if I said that I suspected a possibility that I might see an updated post from you that you allowed your DS to be circ'd... IT seems you are set with the idea of leaving your son whole, but just having so much trouble dealing with DH over it... so stressful!

Maybe your hubby is (sub)/consciously repulsed by the thought of an intact penis (or being confronted with your son's) because it is a reality check. It is something that will remind him of how he once was and he may think it will emotionally torture him... all of these are highly likely, although he will use the fronts/excuses that he's already provided...and as you stated, these are all emotionally charged. The atmosphere when discussing it is probably more than he can bear and the thought of handling your son with something that he was stripped of as an infant may really be eating at him. POOR GUY! I feel bad for your husband!
I really think after the first few days, after seeing your son's beautiful whole body, he will fall in love, be so overwhelmed (excited/tired/in love!) with your new baby that this lingering argument between you both will disappear..at least dwindle.. there will be so many more important things to tend to.
This may also be about him kind of living vicariously through your babe. He was not afforded the basic right of being allowed to make the decision of whether or not he was cut, so maybe now is his opportunity.. this one issue that he thinks he can persuade you to give him control over (although he is also pushing to circ/as opposed to being on the other side of the fence..HE may think that making this decision is his way to stay in control) .. am I making sense? (probably not...I can't articulate well what I am thinking right now)
He told you this is the one thing he can't agree with you on for a reason... it is soooo extremely personal to him... he feels he can maintain whatever control he thinks he may (but didn't) have, by making an executive decision about your son's genitals-which of course is your SON'S personal business...not your husbands (which I know, you know)
(The Vulnerability of Men is an excellent article...)

Good luck with everything, Wishing you the best for a wonderful birthing experience and less stress from your hubby.


----------



## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

You've gotten great advice and insights above.







I just wanted to chime in on the New England thing:

My dh grew up in Boston and Weston, and swam competitively from middle school through college. In college and for many years after, he worked as a personal trainer and worked out regularly at gyms. In all his years of being around lots of naked (and often crude and rude) guys in the gym, never, ever, not once did he hear anyone get teased for being intact (or circed for that matter). The dominant paradigm of male lockerroom etiquette is -- you might notice, but you DON'T discuss for fear of being a) beaten to a pulp or b) ragged on unmercifully yourself for looking.

So this idea that your son will grow up to be tormented because he's intact -- is not at all likely. It's really about your dh and his need to feel OK with what was done to him. It truly sucks for him that he was circed as a baby boy and put through that pain and agony, but he's an adult now and can deal with or choose to repress his feelings about his own circ. His feelings are, in the end, his responsibility and his to deal with. You can't make it better for him by assisting in his denial in the way he wants you to. Your son is not a bargaining chip or a band-aid for him to use to cover up his own unconscious issues.

Take your wind out of his sail. Just say no, and let him deal with his own feelings. You're not responsible for making him feel bad, and you can't make him feel better about your son being intact. He can deal with his own emotions in his own time -- but your son's body is your son's and no one else's. Just come to that realization, stop fighting and stop trying to persuade your dh, and you'll feel a lot better.


----------



## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 









Good for you. He'll "get over it" a lot faster than you think.

I sure hope so. That would be a wonderful surprize for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
I just had a minute to skim... I'm so sorry you are dealing with this- you need to be focusing on preparing for your beautiful birth and resting, relaxing, preparing. I went through a similar issue with dh (Jewish) and I remember the stress and anguish that it caused. our issue was not resolved till after ds's birth and that was tremedously more stressful. DH admits now that he made a bigger deal out of it than he really felt and really was just hoping the issue would go away and I'd just give in. Believe me, I thought about it 90% of the time and it barely registered to him except when we were in conflict. I wish I had pushed for it to be over sooner so I could have focused on other things, although every effort to protect my son was worth it-- no regrets about making the effort, just realized I had gotten closure sooner.

Can you simply heartfully tell him something like, 'THIS issue NEEDS to be reslolved NOW so that I can get on with my pregnancy focusing on positive things. This issue hurts me so much and if I 'give in' I WILL be destroyed by it. I know that. Because it is PURELY social reasons/not medical reasons you are compelled by it goes to the core of my being to stand up and protect my unborn baby in the tender early moments of his life. He needs to be showered with gentleness and love and circumcison, no matter how it is done cannot be a part of our sons 'gentle' birth experience. I know it is wrong and it will damage my relationship as wife and mother. And because you care so much about this pregnancy and want to support me so much, it hurts that you cannot see how this directly effects the nurturing and mothering we are so treasuring and looking forward to birthing with this baby.

To touch on some other things.....
I'm in MA and almost every one I know and am close to has left their boys intact. One 'crunchy' friend did circ and regrets her decision. Even most of my non-crunchy friends left their sons intact. And others that it has come up with (people i left ds with/dacare for example) have all been supportive or thought it a non issue.

As for the looks issue....
There are also some websites where you could compare botched circs-- even though dh believe this wouldn't happen-- obviously it sometimes does and no parent thinks it will happen to their child. Not to mention that the erect intact penis often looks similar to a circumcised one. There are also some sites that are better than others... most sites come across like porn. I can think of one natural man photograph site that is more tastefully/artfully done.

There are many other strategies you could take, your dh seems to have an issue regarding the looks of a penis- so I'd say that this could be regardless of status. With circumcision is he going to decide how his sons penis looks like and grill the doctor on exactly how his expectations are? But realistically he probably should. As I've seen on other boards, parents are often surprised by the circumsion results (too much skin left, adhesions, etc.) that all of these things should be discussed before hand... and frankly as soon as i realized that, there was no way I was going to 'decide' how my sons penis would look or decide which 'type' of circ (each with its own con list) was 'okay'.

Please continue to post and I'm sure we can touch on new issues or specific things that you and dh need to resolve this.

Bottom line is it is your sons body and intact is how babies are born. ((hugs))

Jessica

That's pretty much why I've let the issue drop completely for the past 5 weeks... I've been focussing on me. I really don't want to stress myself out (and I really was stressed out, living in that much discord). My focus lately has been on the birth, on the baby. On myself. I will be sure to post if more things come up!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
I agree w A&A and the siggie:
Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother.
Sadly, we have to fight so hard for our births to be gentle, from the issue of circumcision to all the standard interventions pushed that interfere with the normal process of birth

sometimes it helps dp's to understand when looking at the big picture of our birth culture- which i'm sure you will get w/ bradley.

good luck

Jessica

DH really didn't "get" my need for a gentle birth at first, and I don't think he 100% buys in yet but he's listened to me explain and read parts of books and he's starting to understand better where I'm coming from.... why I want to avoid interventions. I'm really looking forward to the Bradley classes (which start in January!) - I think it'll be really good for him to get that view from someone other than me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tammyswanson* 







This is SO RIGHT ON THE MONEY! You are the mother, it's you who is the protector. Just like those lionesses who have to protect their cubs from being eaten by the male lions. I would not let him be mutilated because your DH has some serious issues about his own circ that he refuses to deal with. It's obvious that he was also deeply traumatized from his own circ and can't deal with it. Hence his strong reaction. It's a defense mechanism to keep him from realizing what was taken from him. It's a shame he can't overcome it for the sake of his defenseless baby.

Plus, how would you and he feel if something would go wrong? Most 'complications' are *not* reported and are blamed on other things...like hemorrhage or just about anything else. No circumciser wants to admit they caused a baby's death. And what a horrible way to die!

Gosh I don't think I could forgive myself if it went RIGHT. I don't think I could ever let that go, the guilt on my heart.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreskin friendly* 
Yes, as Jessica and A&A posted, if it is any consolation, he will almost definitely "get over it" fairly quickly...

My DP was pretty much over it after the first few days (and I think he was worried about how to approach any criticism from his family or friends that expected us to circ...while he was doing diaper changes...etc)..
Originally, we were head to head on this issue... he was adamant about my DS being circ'd... I stood firm and would not sway or budge and said absolutely not, no negotiating. (I also cried about this, but did it out of his presence so that he would not think that he had any sort of influence on me emotionally regarding this issue whatsoever). I know it is hard, especially when you are pregnant and emotionally charged, but it might be best NOT to discuss this (AT ALL anymore, and at least not..) while you are upset (he may see this as a window of opportunity-thinking you will only put up with so much before you cave in)...

Fast forward almost three years and my DP is very one of the strongest advocates AGAINST routine infant circumcision now.

It seems as if you are confident in following your intuition not to circ. I would be lying if I said that I suspected a possibility that I might see an updated post from you that you allowed your DS to be circ'd... IT seems you are set with the idea of leaving your son whole, but just having so much trouble dealing with DH over it... so stressful!

Maybe your hubby is (sub)/consciously repulsed by the thought of an intact penis (or being confronted with your son's) because it is a reality check. It is something that will remind him of how he once was and he may think it will emotionally torture him... all of these are highly likely, although he will use the fronts/excuses that he's already provided...and as you stated, these are all emotionally charged. The atmosphere when discussing it is probably more than he can bear and the thought of handling your son with something that he was stripped of as an infant may really be eating at him. POOR GUY! I feel bad for your husband!
I really think after the first few days, after seeing your son's beautiful whole body, he will fall in love, be so overwhelmed (excited/tired/in love!) with your new baby that this lingering argument between you both will disappear..at least dwindle.. there will be so many more important things to tend to.
This may also be about him kind of living vicariously through your babe. He was not afforded the basic right of being allowed to make the decision of whether or not he was cut, so maybe now is his opportunity.. this one issue that he thinks he can persuade you to give him control over (although he is also pushing to circ/as opposed to being on the other side of the fence..HE may think that making this decision is his way to stay in control) .. am I making sense? (probably not...I can't articulate well what I am thinking right now)
He told you this is the one thing he can't agree with you on for a reason... it is soooo extremely personal to him... he feels he can maintain whatever control he thinks he may (but didn't) have, by making an executive decision about your son's genitals-which of course is your SON'S personal business...not your husbands (which I know, you know)
(The Vulnerability of Men is an excellent article...)

Good luck with everything, Wishing you the best for a wonderful birthing experience and less stress from your hubby.

For a while I said to myself, "Okay, so what if I did allow this to get done. Would it really be as big a deal as I think it will? And I allowed the scenario to play out in my head. And I cried. And I decided that no... no I couldn't do it. It's not something I can give in on with a clear concience. I have made so many choices for this child, to give in on this seems like a betrayal of myself. I really like your comments... I think you have it so right, that his reasons are so very personal and so very strong, he's clinging to that control. I know he gets panicked when he talks about our son not getting circed... like he has somehow "lost" the control. Like it's the loss of control itself that upsets him. You said it far better than I. I strongly feel that our son will be absolutely beautiful as he is. I believe he is perfect exactly how he is in the womb. I will love each and every part of him. And while DH seems to think he will be repulsed... I don't think he could ever look at his son and feel let down. He has waited SO long for this (20 years to have a child, for him), and I hope his wonder of the birth will override everything else.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
You've gotten great advice and insights above.







I just wanted to chime in on the New England thing:

My dh grew up in Boston and Weston, and swam competitively from middle school through college. In college and for many years after, he worked as a personal trainer and worked out regularly at gyms. In all his years of being around lots of naked (and often crude and rude) guys in the gym, never, ever, not once did he hear anyone get teased for being intact (or circed for that matter). The dominant paradigm of male lockerroom etiquette is -- you might notice, but you DON'T discuss for fear of being a) beaten to a pulp or b) ragged on unmercifully yourself for looking.

So this idea that your son will grow up to be tormented because he's intact -- is not at all likely. It's really about your dh and his need to feel OK with what was done to him. It truly sucks for him that he was circed as a baby boy and put through that pain and agony, but he's an adult now and can deal with or choose to repress his feelings about his own circ. His feelings are, in the end, his responsibility and his to deal with. You can't make it better for him by assisting in his denial in the way he wants you to. Your son is not a bargaining chip or a band-aid for him to use to cover up his own unconscious issues.

Take your wind out of his sail. Just say no, and let him deal with his own feelings. You're not responsible for making him feel bad, and you can't make him feel better about your son being intact. He can deal with his own emotions in his own time -- but your son's body is your son's and no one else's. Just come to that realization, stop fighting and stop trying to persuade your dh, and you'll feel a lot better.

I have heard a couple of stories of men who did get teased as a kid - but they seem very few and far between. I too would think that it would be totally taboo to comment on another man's penis! I would think they'd get laughed out of the locker room for looking! The whole locker room argument has held no weight to me from the start... I mean, kids are going to get teased, and I think we need to be teaching our children to embrace diversity - not forcing them to conform!! Even in highschool I refused to conform to anything and yeah I got teased, but it happens about EVERYTHING.. what jeans you wear, how you cut your hair, what food you bring (or buy)... it's ridiculous to think that we need to physically and permanently alter our children to "avoid" teasing. Ridiculous.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I do not know if this is a possibility, but if this is that serious of a problem I would seek legal protection for your unborn child. There has to be some kind of order you can get banning anyone from requesting/forcing the procedure to be performed. If you do not consent to this being done and your DH takes the baby to a doctor and has it done, I would hope you could sue the crap out of the doctor because I believe BOTH parents have to give consent. I really think it might help to speak with a lawyer and see what your rights are.


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## amydep (Apr 18, 2006)

I apologize ahead of time if I am repeating what has already been said, but I just want to make the point that ultimately the decision should be up to your son. When your son is of an age where he can make that decision and if he wants to be circ'd, then you can allow him to do that (I seriously doubt he would really want part of his penis cut off though). The default is an intact penis. The decision to circumcise should only be made by the person who the penis belongs to. Period.

By the way...I'm sooooo sorry you are going through this.


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
I do not know if this is a possibility, but if this is that serious of a problem I would seek legal protection for your unborn child. There has to be some kind of order you can get banning anyone from requesting/forcing the procedure to be performed. If you do not consent to this being done and your DH takes the baby to a doctor and has it done, I would hope you could sue the crap out of the doctor because I believe BOTH parents have to give consent. I really think it might help to speak with a lawyer and see what your rights are.

If my husband ever did something like that behind my back *he* would be the one having serious issues because I'd be packing up and leaving. I have no worries that he would ever do something like that without my consent.







I guess some women do have to worry about that, but no, all I'm worried about is arguments and him resenting me for refusing to give consent.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydep* 
I apologize ahead of time if I am repeating what has already been said, but I just want to make the point that ultimately the decision should be up to your son. When your son is of an age where he can make that decision and if he wants to be circ'd, then you can allow him to do that (I seriously doubt he would really want part of his penis cut off though). The default is an intact penis. The decision to circumcise should only be made by the person who the penis belongs to. Period.

By the way...I'm sooooo sorry you are going through this.









Thanks. And yes, I agree. It should be his choice.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Sometimes it seems like men don't see the compromise that is not circumcising. They feel that, if the mother who doesn't want circumcision wins, they win. Does that make sense? So, instead of seeing the intact baby boy as default, they see that as you (the mother not wanting to cut the baby) as winning.

For very debate orientated people and those dead set on "winning", it might be a tough concept to understand WHY they are angry.

The baby will exit the womb with a foreskin. Is that _fact of nature_ a sign that you have won? No! of course not....but sometimes fathers who are cut and pushing for their sons to be see it that way.

Try, instead of framing it as a debate or that your side is "intactness", make intact the default state and not circumcising a compromise. The ability to cut is on the table. The ability to stay intact is on the table. No one has won or lost the argument. The final decision will rest with the owner of the penis (the only winner, the way it should be)

ETA: this situation can obviously also happen the other way around (with mom wanting to cut and dad not wanting to)


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

(((Hugs)))

I know that this is a hard stance to take.

But I would never ever ever sign that form. Ultimately it is up to you. Your DH does not really, legally have ANY say in the matter . . . What is more important, in the end? His feelings/irrational fears or the very real feelings and very real fear/pain of a 2 day old infant? Mothers are called to protect their children from everything and everyone, including their fathers. I am wishing you strength!


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## ctdoula (Dec 26, 2002)

Are you planning to take a childbirth class at Baystate? If so, you can PM me & I'll tell you what night to sign up for. My classes are definatly anti-circ.


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## Bisou (Dec 11, 2006)

I have a two-year-old boy who isn't circumcized, and I am SO happy I didn't do that to him. I think the suggestions of some of the other posters that the decision should be your son's, when he is older, is a very good one. If he goes to middle school or high school and is made fun of for his penis, give him the option of getting circumsized then. I doubt that will even be an issue, because in many places today only about 50% of boys are circumcized, and that number is decreasing. Circumcision isn't the norm it used to be! The idea that it's less painful at this age is ludicrous, in my opinion, and just something people say to make themselves feel better about doing this to their babies. Tell your husband that it's your SON'S decision, not his. What about the rare cases where circumcisions are botched? There was even a case where the damage was so bad, they decided to raise the little boy as a girl (a whole different problem) because his penis was totally destroyed. It's just not right. I hope your husband will see the light on this one! Ask him to let your son make the decision about his own penis!

I wish you luck with this difficult issue. Hang in there!

Bisou


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Vaugnmama,







My story is so similar to yours. What did it for me was the religion card he pulled. "Its my Biblical duty as a father to make sure he is circumcised!"









Lunarmagic, We wished we knew then what we know now. Circumcision isn't required for Christians. If you want to know more about that I'll PM you or anyone of us would be glad to offer that information, just ask.







But we can't discuss it on CAC, just so you know.

If I knew what YOU know now, The guilt I deal with ON A DAILY BASIS would be unimaginable!!! Do not do that to yourself.

Believe me, your dh WILL THANK YOU for this one day!!!! Every dad I know who's wife stood up to protect their ds even tho the dad was so adamantly wanting a circ'd ds, still thanked the mother of their child(ren) for protecting them.

Once he sees how protective you are and come to realize you were right in being so protective, he will always trust your judgment in every matter in your parenting and marriage life!


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## Bisou (Dec 11, 2006)

I just viewed PART of a circumcision video on YouTube, and I couldn't even get through it. They start by strapping the baby's arms and legs down while the baby screams. They then insert some sort of instrument to separate the foreskin from the rest of the penis, and then they cut. I didn't make it past where they inserted the instrument because the baby started screaming so terribly I couldn't handle it. You can see why most parents have them take the baby to a different room, alone, so they don't have to witness this. When the baby comes back "peacefully sleeping" or zombie-like, due to shock, they can just tell themselves that it must not have been that bad!

I am so glad I didn't do this to my son, but I am also a single mama, so I didn't have pressures from anyone else to do so, either.

If your husband hasn't watched any videos like this, I'd say it's a must! I never thought of circumcision before a guy I was dating (who was in medical school) told me he watched a video of it and thought it was the most horrible thing he ever saw. A few weeks later, I was teaching a class (I teach college) where the topic of female genital mutilation came up, also sometimes called female circumcision. After we talked about this for a few minutes, one guy raised his hand and said, "What about what they do to us guys when they circumcise us? Isn't that mutilation?" Several other men--burly, macho mechanics and other tough guys--agreed and talked about how unfair it was that they didn't get to make this choice for themselves! I was so surprised. I never would've expected these sorts of men (conservative looking, blue collar, macho, traditionally masculine, etc) to have this opinion AND speak so openly about it! It was a shocking moment. I was only about 25, and I hadn't really considered circumcision before, but from that moment on, I was against it! I am glad I was so fortunate to learn about this sooner rather than later. I feel for all of you mamas who face guilt because of this decision. If more of us speak out, however, maybe in 5-10 years it will be uncommon.

(A side note: Anyone have any comebacks to the research done in Africa that circumcision prevents AIDS? PM me, if you do. I don't want to divert the thread!)

Good luck mama in convincing your husband to see this differently. It must be very stressful for you. Just remember: you can always circumcise, but you can never really un-do a circumcision once it's done! (I know you sound pretty convinced of this, but maybe more persuasion for your husband???)


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Natalie, I posted a thread almost exactly like yours about six months ago. My husband was absolutely dead-set on circing our little boy. The mamas here convinced me that I had to be the one to protect my son and place the value of his precious, perfect little body above the feelings of a grown man.

My son is 5 months old and is intact. And you know what? My husband still doesn't like it. He doesn't want to talk about it. He's probably still mad at me. And I've come to the point now where I DON'T CARE if he's mad about it. I did what was right for my defenseless child, and DH is a big boy--he'll get over it. And if he doesn't, oh well. I am so, so glad I didn't give in. Every time I change my baby's diaper, I am so proud of myself for standing my ground and keeping his little body perfect, the way nature intended it to be.

It sounds like you have a happy marriage--your DH is not going to divorce you over this. He will move on and learn to live with it. Just don't sign the consent form. Protect your baby.

Hugs to you, mama. I know it's not easy.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I also wanted to tell you what happened in my situation when we were in the hospital after having the baby. We hadn't talked at all about circumcision since our last argument, which was about a month before baby's birth, so the issue was still unresolved (in DH's mind, anyway) when we went in to have the baby. When they came to get him to do the circ (because around here, they just assume you're having it done), I just said, "We're not having him circ'ed." When the doctor left the room, DH tried to start up with me about why we needed to do it, etc., and I started bawling and pretty much having a full-on panic attack. DH said, "If it really means that much to you, we won't do it." Little did he know, I already knew we weren't doing it. But I let him think he "let" me make the decision. Later on, our pediatrician came in and basically praised us for not doing it, telling us that it was a completely cosmetic/unnecessary procedure. I think that made DH feel a *little* better, but not much. I mentioned something about it when LO was a month or so old, and DH said, "YOU'RE going to be the one to tell him why he's different from all his friends." That's the only time we've talked about it since then. I'm sure he's still mad about it, but the issue just doesn't come up anymore. He changes the baby's diapers and never says a word about it.

I hope for the same reaction from your DH. Maybe when they actually come in to get that sweet little newborn baby to hurt him, he will soften up and come to your side a little bit. I honestly think that's what made my DH relent--actually being there with our brand new, perfect little baby and thinking about him being taken away to be cut on.


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## RMM1117 (Dec 6, 2007)

Good for you for sticking to your guns!!!!


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Natalie, have you received the info I have emailed you yesterday?

Show him the video of the actual procedure, the pen and teller video. you (without your dh) take a look at the link 10 top ways circ'd sex hurts women and see if you find something that is relavent to your sex life (if so, show it to your dh).
explain him the history of circ (prevention of masturbation). show him the sensitivity studies (published in british magazine of urology). etc.

please keep up updated, we'll try to help as much as we can,
yulia.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
Natalie, I posted a thread almost exactly like yours about six months ago. My husband was absolutely dead-set on circing our little boy. The mamas here convinced me that I had to be the one to protect my son and place the value of his precious, perfect little body above the feelings of a grown man.

My son is 5 months old and is intact. And you know what? My husband still doesn't like it. He doesn't want to talk about it. He's probably still mad at me. And I've come to the point now where I DON'T CARE if he's mad about it. I did what was right for my defenseless child, and DH is a big boy--he'll get over it. And if he doesn't, oh well. I am so, so glad I didn't give in. Every time I change my baby's diaper, I am so proud of myself for standing my ground and keeping his little body perfect, the way nature intended it to be.


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## Friday13th (Jun 13, 2006)

I just thought I'd chime in and suggest talking to your Bradley instructor ahead of time. Ours is very strongly anti-circ and she discusses the pro's and con's in at least a few classes. It might help him to get someone else's perspective.

Also, we're in MA and I don't know anyone, personally, that has circ'd their sons. Plus, my husband (raised in CT) is intact, as are several of his friends.

Good luck.


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## phatchristy (Jul 6, 2005)

Your DH needs to respect your instincts and the ultimate role you have as your child's protector. He is not looking at this from an open minded perspective, and not a complete perspective either. He will never know what it is like to have a fully functioning penis (and YES sadly the intact penis does work quite differently than a circumcised one...we know this from experience as well as massive discussion and research--do a search for that on this forum).

If he is like my DH, he will not want to talk about details of circumcision. He won't want to make it personal or even want to know more details about what he has lost. The kind of emotion that knowledge can bring a man is of the intensity that likely he has never experienced before.

The most important thing here is that you protect your son. Your DH may need his time to mull over things...to let the ideas sink in. Once your son is here, he sees how completely NORMAL he looks he may feel differently. The whole pregnancy is more real in general for the woman as she's the one going through all the changes, once the baby is on the outside he will be "real" to him in a way closer to what you're experiencing.

You've already gotten a lot of information from people here, so I'll appeal to the emotional side of you. I know a woman who did not want to circ. Arguments, disagreements....she caved shortly after the birth (I'm sure exhaustion didn't help either). He also had a complication (infection/bleeding/some serious ABX had to be used--they HOPE that he will have a normal sex life as he has a lot of scarring). And, of course, breastfeeding didn't work...the baby did fine before the circ...but then refused to afterwards, and that plus the complications things never resumed. And, now she's a single mom...less than a year after the birth they separated and are now divorced. That the circ issue was really an amplification of other issues that they had in the relationship, and the fact that he didn't respect her as he should have.

She said that with every diaper change, every time that she sees him she has a feeling like she's being stabbed in the heart. She has so much emotional pain, I wouldn't wish that on ANYONE. She says it is the absolute greatest regret that she has in her life, that if she could do it over that she would rather have them take a piece of herself if she had that choice.

I've met several moms who have regretted it...one who was even in her 70s!!!! She spoke to me about circ and how they did it to her son, and how she saw it and was horrified (her husband was intact...this was a high circ area and they did it). You could see the pain in her eyes...it's one of those things that people DO NOT get over. They might bury the pain, but it's still fresh to them when it comes out and they think about it.

On the flip side, I once had an older mom give me a hug and tell me that keeping a son whole is one of the things you will be proudest of in your life.

And, when you read that sentence again it strikes you as ridiculous...that people even have a choice to cut off healthy, highly sensitive, sexual tissue for cosmetic reasons.







And, don't BOTH boys and girls deserve an intact body?


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

"We live in New England (which has some of the highest circ rates in the country)"

Are you serious?! I live in VT and i would considered it one of the LOWEST circ rates.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

My DH wantd to circ. I did not. I ADMANTLY did not.

We argued. He used the usual litany of excuses that don't mean squat.

I told him it wasn't his call. It isn't his penis. That if it is THAT important to our son, our son could get it done later on in his life. No harm, no foul.

Guess what? My upset angry DH now believes that circumcision is ridiculous, and tortourous and shouldn't be done.

I think that the argument from me that something had been stolen from him, has slowly permeated his psyche.

Now we are working on getting him to the point of vaginas are never to be make out to seem yucky, and penises aren't things of violence. And that we are not going to have those ideas set into our children's heads. I think that discussion really wierded him out.....but I think it is slowly winding its way thorugh his brain too.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

My heart goes out to you because I know how challenging it is to be at odds with your husband. My 2 boys are both circ'd largely because I was afraid of the fits my DH would throw (and I'm not talking violence, but the pouting and fussing, etc.) if I didn't go along with what he wanted. And I know the stress of trying to discuss it when you're not getting any cooperation and your spouse shuts down on you.

All I can say is I wish with my whole heart that I had just taken responsibility and let my husband fuss and moan and be a baby about it for a few weeks or months until he accepted it. I should have known that he would get over it, perhaps not without stress, but much less stress than I feel now over knowing I have permanently damaged my boys' sex organs. My husband probably would have freaked over penis care, etc. but I could have and should have managed.

I hope you don't appease your husband. He is in the wrong, if you don't agree to a yes, then anything that is not a yes from both of you is automatically a no and you should not circ.

Your husband will adapt.

I'll be thinking of you. I hope you have more strength than I did, and I hope you think more of your son than your husband. It's his body.

ETA: What might help you make this decision alone is to realize that your husband is too emotional about this issue to have any rational clarity and evaluation of the facts. It's almost like he's not capable of making a logical decision because he's so personally affected by circ. It may be near impossible for him to ever admit the truth about circ, and so the issue is better left in your hands, because you come to the issue without those emotional obstacles and you can see it all clearly.

Hugs,
Karen


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hiya Momma, I'm sorry to hear you are going through this (unfortunately all that common) fight.

My dh didn't fight me much, I was lucky. He basically just said "as long as he's not the only one" we didn't need to do it. Thank goodness for the internet cuz I was able to find out that not only was circ not the majority anymore in my neck of the woods, it was the complete opposite!

It was however, years later that he admitted to me that he was still nervous about the decision not to circ for quite a while after our first was born. I never knew!

So maybe that is part of it for your dh too.....fear of the unknown. Maybe after he gets to know his perfect son and knows firsthand that his little foreskin is not going to spontaniously combust or anything, he will feel better?

I know with my dh at least, the proof was in the pudding









Good luck to you!
Tara


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I could have written your post 2 years ago. My DH refused to watch the videos, refused to read any of my information, refused to even discuss it! He wanted it done and that was that. He even went as far as to say if he knew I was anti-circ he wouldn't have married me! (I didn't know the truth about circumcision when we got married).

For me it was a matter of needs versus wants. There was no NEED for my son to be circumcised and I had a NEED to protect him from unecessary medical procedure. My husband only WANTED him circumcised.

I had to the use "Over my Dead Body". But, my son is INTACT!!

Two years later I know my DH is still upset that DS is intact. I know he resents me for not allowing it. But, I don't care. The needs of my children will always come before the wants of my husband.

I honestly thought DH would get used to it and actually realize that it wasn't necessary. But I was wrong. I would rather be wrong about that than regret circumcising my son.


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## homewithtwinsmama (Jan 5, 2005)

I let my husband have the decision. I have regretted it ever since they brought my poor boy back in a shock induced sleep that lasted 8 hours on his second day of life. I told my dh that we would NEVER circ another boy and he kept fighting me about it. Course by then I had switched to homebirth and had a midwife who didn't do them, a ped who didn't believe in it and I said "how exactly are you going to do this, rip the child from my breast and steal out the door to an OB to demand a circ?" He kind of gave up after that. And then we had five girls, so it wasn't an issue he ever had to actually face...


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

You have received a lot of great advice already.. I just wanted to lend my support and encourage you to not back down!! You seem to understand your need to protect your baby.

Has he read the thread of those who circ'd and regretted it? My sil had a thread just like yours several months ago and it got left on the screen accidentally.. her dh read it and it made him change his mind when he saw the links and saw how horrified people were that he wanted to cut part of his baby up. She didn't do that on purpose, but it worked!!


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Oh, mama! I am soooo sorry DH is being such a butt! What I say now is what I said 20 years ago when I refused to circ my ds-Cleanliness?!? if that's the reason, we better get REAL busy and start circing all our girls, cuz we are MUCH juicier than boys!!! This reasoning seems to have a much more thoughtful effect on folks. It does a bit of an end-run around male circ, too. To me, the bottom line is that the decision belongs to the owner of said penis. I would stop arguing or having any discussion whatsoever about it, do not sign anything, and perhaps have an attorney write something up that goes in your chart now, NOT when you are admitted- way too much potential for confusion. I have to agree w/pps, this would be a deal breaker to me. It would be like finding out my dh *used* to be a rapist. Don't mean to be harsh, but anyone willing to put a child thru circ can't be trusted with that child.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

My dh pitched a fit and I just told him I would divorce him and not put his name on the birth certificate. This showed him how serious I was, which got him to read some literature about it. Now he is a huge intactivist and really spreads the word.

In the end, your dh is an adult and is capable of working through his emotions. And you don't have to do his feeling work for him. Give him the chance to work through a difficult issue by himself, without your softening it. His emotions do not have to be tattooed on your son's body.

In the meantime, I'd stop talking about it. Just know that it will never happen, and give him the space to think by himself.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
We live in New England (which has some of the highest circ rates in the country) so almost everyone he knows is circed.

Did he tell you that? Because it's false. The coasts -- East and West -- have the lowest circ rates and the Midwest has the highest. New England has a pretty low circ rate, actually. Most of the little boys I know are intact and more than a few of the older boys who were circumcised have younger brothers who are intact.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
As of 2004 this site lists the circ rates as follows:
Northeast Region: 66.4%
North Central Region: 79.5%
Southern Region: 58.5%
Western Region: 31.7%

Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
This one has states listed (not all of the unfortunatly)
Arkansas 67%
Arizona 25
California 21
Colorado 63
Florida 39
Hawaii 82
Iowa 82
Kentucky 85
Maine 72
Massachusetts 67
Michigan 85
Minnesota 77
Missouri 78
Nebraska 81
Nevada 14
New Hampshire 76
New Jersey 67
New York 59
North Carolina 58
Oregon 30
Rhode Island 74
South Carolina 83
Utah 53
Vermont 68
Washington 26
West Virginia 83
Wisconsin 83

Statistics: http://www.circs.org/reviews/rates/usa.html
This is from back in 99
National65.3
NorthEast 65.4
MidWest 81.4
South 64.1
West 36.7

2005 Stats: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/3/prweb217505.htm

Quote:

March 14, 2005 -- The U.S. circumcision rate declined 11.4% over two years, according to figures just released by the National Center for Health Statistics, from 63.1% in 2001 to 55.9% in 2003, following a steady, twenty-five year decline. At this rate, in just 12 years, the US will join other English-speaking countries in abandoning circumcision.
Statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2003/


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

Wanted to add that our ds is intact, 2 1/2 with never a penis problem. We don't even wash with soap. Just let him play in the tub! He looks so right to me that I forget that circ exists anymore.

My circ'd dh started out like yours, but I had the benefit of this being our third child (first two were girls). By the time our first dd was a month old, he had fallen in love. He was almost as protective and compassionate as I was. You realize that this baby is a whole tiny real person, and you can't imagine putting them through loss and agony because of your own hang-ups.

If your dh is a fairly sensitive and open guy (sounds like yes), he'll feel all that and he'll change. Then, maybe, he'll even be grateful to you for going to bat for his son.


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

I wish I could respond to everyone tonight, but I am dead tired and have more work to do... but I wanted to add a little insight that I had while thinking about this yesterday...

DH is very adamant that our son will get teased for not being circed. And I thought long and hard on this, because it really is a ridiculous argument. But you know what I realized? He's afraid of HIMSELF being teased. His entire (all-male) family are very vocally pro-circ. When the topic came up at Thanksgiving the menfolk all stared at me like I was from Mars and repeated a lot of what DH has been saying - that it's GROSS and so disgusting looking, etc. Lightbulb went off. If our son isn't circed, DH is never going to hear the end of it.

Not that this changes anything at all, but it does give me insight in why he reacts like he does. I'll just tell him to blame it on me.







I have no issues being the weird one.... I already get that a LOT. (I am most definitely a black sheep around here among his family! Computer geek, earthy-crunchy, etc...) Heck he can even blame it on me being Canadian. (I don't know the circ stats for Canada and it's certainly not *why* I believe what I do, but the whole family gets a big kick out of blaming my oddities on me being Canadian, lol.)

The more I think about it, the more I think that simply not bringing it up and refusing to talk about it unless he actually wants to *talk* and not get angry and sulky is the way to go. Every time I bring up the circ issue he gets defensive because he feels I'm being pushy and trying to convince him. (Well, I am trying to convince him.) So I am no longer trying to *convince* him. I tried, it failed, it causes too much stress. My mind is made up, he knows where I stand, he knows I am not budging. If *he* wants to have a conversation about it and try to change *my* mind I'm open to discussion (so I can calmly explain the facts to him). I think I've realized I'm not going to get his blessing on this (at least not until afterwards, if ever), at best I'm going to get him silently aquiescing - at worst I'll have to put my foot down and refuse to give permission and seriously tick him off. Either way... it's not getting done, and I am at peace with that. I hope he can find his own peace with it.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kabes* 
My DH was pretty set against it too. Finally, I said fine on two conditions. 1- you arrange to watch one in person or watch two on video AND 2-you go with your son and comfort him while it's being done. Guess what?

My boys are intact.
He never even tried to download the videos. He couldn't stomach the idea of having to watch.
It only makes sense that you have to see it to really understand what you are doing. And you should really understand before you make a life time decision for someone else's body.
Best wishes to you and your son.

Same with us.
When I found out we were having a ds I cried because of the circ issue. I wanted a girk sinply because there would be no argument.
We had some awful screaming matches during pregnancy. They got very bad. The whole neighborhood could hear us. Luckily we have many Euro friend who are intact. They helped me out a lot. I call them my angels. Once dh saw him his mind changed. The stay in the nicu reinforced this. We are in New England as well. All 12 other nephews on his side are circ'd but our ds is INTACT. Dh is all about no circ now.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Here are the canadian statistics Canada statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/

Quote:

1996/97, circumcision was performed as a primary procedure on about 20 percent of Canadian male neonates, however by 2005, this had declined to *9.2 percent*, which brings the genital integrity rate up to 90.8 percent.
I am so jealous of Cananda and other none circing countries.


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## lyttlewon (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
I wish I could respond to everyone tonight, but I am dead tired and have more work to do... but I wanted to add a little insight that I had while thinking about this yesterday...

DH is very adamant that our son will get teased for not being circed. And I thought long and hard on this, because it really is a ridiculous argument. But you know what I realized? He's afraid of HIMSELF being teased. His entire (all-male) family are very vocally pro-circ. When the topic came up at Thanksgiving the menfolk all stared at me like I was from Mars and repeated a lot of what DH has been saying - that it's GROSS and so disgusting looking, etc. Lightbulb went off. If our son isn't circed, DH is never going to hear the end of it.

Not that this changes anything at all, but it does give me insight in why he reacts like he does. I'll just tell him to blame it on me.







I have no issues being the weird one.... I already get that a LOT. (I am most definitely a black sheep around here among his family! Computer geek, earthy-crunchy, etc...) Heck he can even blame it on me being Canadian. (I don't know the circ stats for Canada and it's certainly not *why* I believe what I do, but the whole family gets a big kick out of blaming my oddities on me being Canadian, lol.)

The more I think about it, the more I think that simply not bringing it up and refusing to talk about it unless he actually wants to *talk* and not get angry and sulky is the way to go. Every time I bring up the circ issue he gets defensive because he feels I'm being pushy and trying to convince him. (Well, I am trying to convince him.) So I am no longer trying to *convince* him. I tried, it failed, it causes too much stress. My mind is made up, he knows where I stand, he knows I am not budging. If *he* wants to have a conversation about it and try to change *my* mind I'm open to discussion (so I can calmly explain the facts to him). I think I've realized I'm not going to get his blessing on this (at least not until afterwards, if ever), at best I'm going to get him silently aquiescing - at worst I'll have to put my foot down and refuse to give permission and seriously tick him off. Either way... it's not getting done, and I am at peace with that. I hope he can find his own peace with it.

DH and I fought a lot about this. We were both relieved when DD was a girl. When we decided to have #2 I told DH if he wanted any more children he would have to drop the circ issue. I wasn't going to have another baby if he wanted to have it circumcised.

One thing that has been interesting was right after DS was born a few people asked us if we were getting DS circed. His mom asked me and I said no and she didn't say anything else. His dad "cornered" him on a fishing trip and expressed his concern about how unhealthy it would be and how worried he was for our son. DH calmly explained to him that it wouldn't be any more difficult than keeping a little girl healthy. He felt very sad for his dad. He was confused at why it was such an issue for him and we talked about how his dad was one of the first to have a circ and that he had to be convinced there was a reason for it. I have been very proud of how he handles it. He was freaked out when DS was first born because he was confused about how to care for an intact penis.

It might be hard for your DH and his parents, especially his mother.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I'm gonna go with "blaming" it on being Canadian. Don't know what province you're from but the rates are EXTREMELY low in most of them. Just have him say "Look, she's Canadian and they don't circumcise up there - it's frowned upon. End of subject"


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## *Jade* (Mar 13, 2007)

Oh Natalie, I'm sorry this is still going on! I can just hear the emotion in your posts, I really feel for you. I hope you can bring Den round.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
The more I think about it, the more I think that simply not bringing it up and refusing to talk about it unless he actually wants to *talk* and not get angry and sulky is the way to go. Every time I bring up the circ issue he gets defensive because he feels I'm being pushy and trying to convince him. (Well, I am trying to convince him.) So I am no longer trying to *convince* him. I tried, it failed, it causes too much stress. My mind is made up, he knows where I stand, he knows I am not budging. If *he* wants to have a conversation about it and try to change *my* mind I'm open to discussion (so I can calmly explain the facts to him). I think I've realized I'm not going to get his blessing on this (at least not until afterwards, if ever), at best I'm going to get him silently aquiescing - at worst I'll have to put my foot down and refuse to give permission and seriously tick him off. Either way... it's not getting done, and I am at peace with that. I hope he can find his own peace with it.

You are a very wise mama.







to you and your dh both.

Reading through this thread has made me want to cry - both for you, having to deal with this issue when you are pregnant (the thought of someone wanting to hurt our children is so incredibly painful to us, as mothers - it amazes me that societal conditioning can be so strong that mothers give in to this pressure to cut our son's genitals







), and for your husband. As Sheacoby said - that a grown man could be so insistent that his son be cut, just because he is cut - there is a lot of hurt/denial/etc going on there.

I think your approach is exactly right. The more others try to 'argue with' and convince us that they are right and we are wrong, the more we shut down and retreat - that's just human nature (especially when we are talking about a topic as personal as circumcision).

Again - hugs to you both. I am so sorry you are both dealing with this. Your son is very lucky to have you as his mama.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

I think your approach is excellent. He is essentially doing this to you...except he has no support medically, philospophically, or morally. So you are in the strong position and he is in the weak position.

The only other advice I have is to be very careful when giving birth. Make sure it is widely known and expect them to keep asking you, even when you are under stress and sedation. Thei is what happened with my first son. I still preventied it, but had to resist moments of weakness under the "doctor's" pressuring us.

Best wishes


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

I think using the Canadian angle is a great idea. Whatever works!! And yay for you anyways for being so firm on this.


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunarmagic* 
DH is very adamant that our son will get teased for not being circed.

Remember that even right now circ rate is close to 50%-50% and is declining steadily.
I like what one guy said: "Dude let's get it straight, you are laughing at me because you got a part of _your_ dick got cut off?!.."


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

It sounds like you ( the OP) have well informed insight into your dh's motivations for circ and have a well thought out plan to just stand your ground









Regarding watching the circ video with him. I didn't notice if this had been said but if you decide to have him watch the circ video, I suggest you watch it with him because you horrified reaction might have an effect on him.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

Thanks for sharing your decision making process with us Mama! It has been very moving/educational.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I might also wait until he gets home, and is in the same room as the computer (or burn a DVD and put it on the TV) and turn on a video of a circumcsion and turn the volume up.

Take no prisioners.







:


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Good for you for choosing to protect your son. I hope you have a wonderful birth experience and enjoy your new family member! I hope that your husband finds healing along the way also.

Hugs and best wishes!!!


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
Here are the canadian statistics Canada statistics: http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/
I am so jealous of Cananda and other none circing countries.


I say use the Canadian angle too. I would be proud to have people think of all Canadian as people who don't circ. Though unfortunately it isn't true, just the majority of us don't circ. Here are some more Canadian Stats by province.

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html


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## 4chunut1 (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 

Believe me, your dh WILL THANK YOU for this one day!!!! Every dad I know who's wife stood up to protect their ds even tho the dad was so adamantly wanting a circ'd ds, still thanked the mother of their child(ren) for protecting them.

Once he sees how protective you are and come to realize you were right in being so protective, he will always trust your judgment in every matter in your parenting and marriage life!

lunarmagic you have gotten TONS of good advice and support here for your decision not to circumcise, mostly from mommas who have faced the same dilemma. Let me give you some perspective from an intact male.
I was born in the era when circumcision was just becoming wildly popular, but at that time where I was born, it was mainly a "status" thing...the better off families had their sons circed, and the poorer ones did not (cost was a big factor). I was fortunate to be in the latter group, and my parents left me intact.

I totally agree with fruitful womb's remarks...but not only will your dh thank you...your SON will also thank you. Words cannot really express the gratitude I have for my Mom for leaving me intact. I believe it was one of the greatest things she ever did for me. In my family children did not talk about such things with their parents, but I have thanked her in my mind so many, many times for that decision.

When your son is an adult and becomes sexually active, he will experience pleasures that his father can only imagine. But, if he is not satisfied with his genital status, then HE can make a determination... You will have done your duty to protect him and give him that option...


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

I like what one guy said: "Dude let's get it straight, you are laughing at me because you got a part of your dick got cut off?!.."
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/restore/rio/01/


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

lunarmagic...
Your situation was similar to mine a year ago. When i found out we were having a boy I was actually excited to bring up the circ issue with DP because I thought he would agree that circ was wrong. (being the kind, compassionate vegan that he his...) Well, boy was I wrong. He reacted the exact same way your husband did. Gave the very same reasons for his argument and begged me to let him have this one decision because he had the penis and knew what was best. (He also grew up in New England and doesn't know anyone that is intact. I tried to tell him about a few women I know that had babies this year all kept their boys intact and how my mother talked to me about it before I gave birth and told me to really think about the issue because she deeply regrets having my brother cut.) Everytime it came up I would end up in tears he would just get angry. Eventually we just stopped talking because we each knew the other wouldn't budge. When DS was born he was kept intact. The issue has come up a few times. He is still very against it, and I think is hurt by the fact I didn't let him make the decision. I think he keeps waiting for something to go wrong (nothing has yet) so he can blame it all on my decision. I really do believe this all stems from him being insecure because he is cut and still believes that DS will be teased and live a life full of misery because he isn't.
I am glad I stood my ground. I would not have been able to go through with it or live with myself if I did. My mother was pressured by my father and his family to have it done to my brother and she still cries when she brings it up. I hope one day DP will come around but I'm not holding my breath.

Anyway, I hope everything works out for you and you come to some sort of peace with this. You know what's best.....Good luck with everything. Peace~


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## catholic74 (May 21, 2007)

I am going through the same thing. So much of what you say sounds just like my husband. We could never talk about circumcision without him instantly getting angry and throwing a tantrum. We ended up just not talking about it at all. After my son was about 6 weeks old he mentioned having him circumcisized and I once again told him no to which he once again became irate. There has never been any respectful, rational communication on this.

My son is 5 months old now and we still just don't talk about it. I know my husband is still angry and would take him in to be circumcized today if I'd let him.

Sugar Pickle mentioned something in one of her posts a while back that really spoke to me. She mentioned a lessening of trust on her part towards her husband and this is how I feel too, though perhaps in a slightly different way. Because we don't talk about it, my husband certainly doesn't know anything about how to care for the intact penis nor does he even like the look of one so I don't feel comfortable with him changing my son's diaper. I don't want him to think my son's penis is ugly nor do I want him to hurt him by pulling on the foreskin. He doesn't know not to. *I don't want anyone, even my husband, who is so hostile to intactness, anywhere near my son's genitals.* I could never allow my husband to take my son to his well baby visits either because he wouldn't know to prevent retraction and the such. It's just such a shame and makes me sad. One interesting note is that my husband has actually refused to change my son's diaper anyway and I wonder if it's because he doesn't want to look at his intact penis?

It's my hope that someday he will either get over it, accept it or come to feel the way I do. Only then will we be able to heal as a couple. We are not so close anymore to say the least and it's truly a shame.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

good point.


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