# People's incorrect assumptions making dd feel bad!!!



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Arrrggghhhh, I am starting to hate the holiday season. I hate to be the Grinch, and I know I live in an area where most people celebrate Christmas, but I wish people - complete strangers, of course - would stop asking my DD what she wants Santa to bring her this year, or if she has a pretty Christmas tree in her house.

She has been telling me that she wishes she were Christian so she could celebrate Christmas and Santa can come to her house, and she could take a picture with Santa at the mall, blah, blah, blah.

Now, we are not even observant Jews, but we do celebrate Hanukkah. And I know Jewish people who "do" a little Christmas, and I'm not judging them, but I just don't feel comfortable with that. No matter how commercial Christmas gets, it's a religious holiday and it is just not right for me to participate in a holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus! That doesn't mean that we won't go to friend's Christmas parties or whatever, but DD knows that it is not our holiday.

I have been sooo tempted to tell her that Santa is just pretend, but I am so worried that she will spill the beans to other kids and ruin it for them. I respect other families wishes to have their kids believe in Santa, so I've just told DD that he doesn't come to our house or the houses of any of our Jewish friends.

This is really silly, isn't it?









But it does tick me off when people ask DD about Santa when they don't even know if we celebrate Christmas. Just seems kind of clueless to me.







:


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

As a Christian I do not see Santa as having anything to do with religion. A lot of the traditional Christmas decorations and other traditions are Christian per se either.

I know this is your family's decision though about where you cut the line.

I would politely correct people when they make those comments that you are Jewish so that they would know not to stick their feet in their mouths next time.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

I totally respect your right not to celebrate the holiday, but just a little food for thought...

89% of Americans celebrate Christmas.

Most celebrate it on one of three levels:
1. The birth of Christ, who they view as the Savior of mankind.
2. The birth of Jesus, who they view as a nice guy and teacher whose ideas American culture was founded on.
3. A purely commerical gift-giving, family-gathering holiday.

Again, NOT trying to say you should celebrate it!


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## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

Yesterday we were at the hardware store and Cecelia was staring at a lady working there wearing a red shirt. The lady next to her said, "Oh she must like the color red, I bet she thinks you're Santa." I didn't want to burst their bubble and tell them that DD has never even seen Santa, let alone thinks he's a man who's bringing her gifts.

We're not Christian either, which people ALWAYS assume, but we have a tree and all that as part of our Solstice celebration. (Again, I'd hate to break their bubble and tell them that the whole evergreen thing is Pagan.







)

People make a lot of ASSumptions.... I just ignore them. I'm sure that will be harder as DD gets older though...


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Hiya! Well, if it makes you feel any better, we do live in a predominantly Jewish area (we are Jewish as well) and people STILL ask "have you done all your Christmas shopping?" My stock answer is either, "we don't celebrate Christmas" or "we celebrate a different holiday".

I know people are just saying it to be polite.

DD cracked me up yesterday - she goes to Jewish preschool (she's 3 1/2) and a woman asked her if she's "excited about Christmas". She looked the woman dead in the eye and said, "no. We don't celebrate Christmas, we're Jewish." So the woman says, "oh, I'm sorry" and my DD said, "Mommy, why is this lady sorry?" :LOL I felt bad for the woman, she really was just trying to be nice and she looked very embarrassed.

I bet she won't make that assumption anymore!

Edited to add: about your DD. I know that most Jewish kids go through a phase where they long to celebrate Christmas. You can only teach your child pride in what she is and know that this too shall pass. I really wouldn't was energy on anger - we are the vast minority in this country and that lesson will be learned eventually anyway!


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LunaMom_
*
I have been sooo tempted to tell her that Santa is just pretend, but I am so worried that she will spill the beans to other kids and ruin it for them. I respect other families wishes to have their kids believe in Santa, so I've just told DD that he doesn't come to our house or the houses of any of our Jewish friends.*
JMO, but I'd tell her. My kids know santa isn't real and I don't think they've told anyone else. I refuse to lie to them so I've never done santa. Maybe your dd will feel better if she knows santa isn't real and that it's just their parents giving them stuff? Maybe she just feels a little left out?


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## AahRee (Jan 23, 2003)

I'm sorry that people's insensitive comments are making your DD feel bad!







We're Christian, and I have to agree with Amara'smom that Santa has nothing to do with Christianity, but it doesn't matter - if you don't want to *do* Santa, that's your choice, and your DD shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.

I'm another one who thinks you should just tell her that there isn't really a Santa, but tell her not to tell. She'd probably like having a secret that the other kids dont' know, and it might take the sting out of Santa not coming to her house. Just an idea!


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I'd also tell her that Santa isn't real. And if you really wanted to, you could point out that she gets gifts at Hannukah for 8 days, Christians only get them one day (assuming that's how you do it).


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I know that this is kind of a vent for you but you know what your right, taht is pretty wrong. I never really thought about it before but the world is so much more diverse now we really shoudl take that into consideration. and kudos for you for not "spilling the beans " about santa.
On another note it's really hard to be PC nowadays but we should try more.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

We live in an area with a large Orthodox Jewish community and DH and my in laws are Jewish. I try to make a point to wish people a happy holiday since you never know what they celebrate.
I'm sorry to hear that your dd is having a rough time of it. I'd try and remind her of the 8 days of the holiday instead of just 1. When I was little, I was always jealous of my Jewish friends who had 8 days when I just had 1.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sharonal_
*I totally respect your right not to celebrate the holiday, but just a little food for thought...
89% of Americans celebrate Christmas.
Most celebrate it on one of three levels:
...Again, NOT trying to say you should celebrate it!*
Uh, and you think you need to point this out _why_? It's "food for thought"? Do you think there are any non-Christians in this country who don't know that the majority of people here celebrate Christmas? Did you think the OP slept through her entire upbringing, that she doesn't know she's in the minority?

Did you know that people who are in the minority in any way often know more about the majority culture than their own? I dare you to come up with the lyrics to any Hanukah song. Maybe you know "dreidel dreidel". I, on the other hand, know all the words to "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen", "White Christmas" (written by a Jew, y'all) "Silent Night" (ditto) "Oh Come All Ye Faithful", "The Little Drummer Boy", "The Holly and the Ivy" (okay, that might really be pagan) and oh, so many more. Many many more.

I say, to LunaMom, don't you dare let your child think that Santa Claus is "real." Tell her the truth. What are you doing, making her feel like Jews are getting the short end of the stick with Santa? Don't do that!

Do what my mom did with us: make and buy some Hanukah decorations and put them up in your house. Hang one of those "Happy Hanukah" signs in your window. You can buy pre-made stuff
here if you don't have a Jewish bookstore near you. I know, it's really tacky, but it feels good. My mom made construction paper images of Judah Maccabee with his shield and a lion with a fringed mane, and got us not one but two Happy Hanukah signs, one for the front window, one for the back.

Have a Hanukah party and invite Dd's friends. Serve latkes. Play klezmer records--

play them LOUD.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by captain optimism_
*Uh, and you think you need to point this out why?*
I was thinking the same thing. What other reason than to suggest she celebrate Christmas?


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Uh...I was kinda wondering the same thing too...

BTW, ITA about the Santa thing. My parents told me he wasn't real but told me to be sensitive to those that thought he was.


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

I also vote to tell her Santa isn't real







I think letting her believe he's real but doesn't come to her house is guaranteed to make her feel left out. You can do what I do. I've told dd that people like to pretend Santa is real. We celebrate Christmas but don't do Santa, so that's how I explain it. She's 5 now, but she's seemed to understand it for a few years.

And I have to second that when I was little I was jealous of my Jewish best friend who had 8 days of gifts :LOL Not that you want to encourage materialism, but you could play that up a bit.

Ok, this may sound like a different subject, but we homeschool and CONSTANTLY get the school questions from strangers. At first I would answer "we homeschool" but now, at 5, she answers it proudly herself most of the time. When people ask her if Santa is bringing her toys, how about you answer for her and excitedly say "oh no, but we're *so* looking forward to 8 days of Chanukah and latkes and playing dreidel and . . . " (whatever you guys do in your family). I bet if you did that, after awhile she'd answer herself!


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

I've been thinking about this a lot this season...we aren't Jewish, and I no longer have anyone in my circle of friends who is Jewish (I have a few acquaintances, but no close friends) because of geography, but I've been noticing the assumptions that everyone makes and feeling sad for anyone living in the area where I live...today for example, we were at the local My Gym, and the owner was decorating with garland and ornaments...she asked me something about it and I started to point out that there were no dreidels (I hope I spelled that correctly) or things related to Chanukah when I realized that she did in fact have silver and blue along one wall. So I stopped and she noted it too. But dagnabbit she's the only person who seems to realize that not everyone celebrates the same holidays! I would like to see people acknowledging Solstice and Kwanzaa and any other tradition. I'm sorry you're struggling with this right now...hopefully that came out right.

Leah

edited for spelling


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## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

I am sorry that people are being insensitive about your religion. We are (no longer) christian, but keep christmas because most of our family is and they want to celebrate it. Not the same though, anyway, it made me think about whether I ask other kids about santa and I guess I don't. but I will pay extra attention NOT to ask unless they bring it up.

And I also agree that you could explain it to your DD that Santa is not real. I think you can explain it in a way that is sensitive to others. If she does spill the beans the parents of the other kids can recoup. I had my sister believing in Santa after my parents explained what was up, and she believed in Santa till she was almost 8! I am really such a terrible sister, but I liked living vicariously through her so much. Selfish though I know.

Still, I really feel that the whole Christmas thing does get shoved down your throat a bit and I don't like it. And DH's firm always has the holiday party so it overlaps ramadan (well, not this year but the last few years it has) which I think is sort of rude. I mean, you are having a feast at a time when some people really cannot go! Grrr

Happy Holidays everyone


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

Well a lady I know invented hannukah Harry. he is Santa's cousin who lives in the South pole and he wears blue and drives a blue sleigh with a star of David n the side of it. She invented Hannukah Harry because she is Jewish and her DH is catholic and they celebrate both, but she wanted the children when they were small to be as excited about Hanukkah as they were about Christmas.

Sort of like Ross' Hannukah Armadillo







(for those of us who watch Friends)

Imagine the look on someone's face when they ask what santa is bringing and she says nothing, but Hannukah Harry is! LOL.

and I have been with my friend when someone says "Merry Christmas" she replies "Happy Hannukah!"

(And a very happy hannukah to you!)


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

We are christian, but we don't do Santa. I've told them that its fine to "pretend" about Santa, and they do. I've also told them that different families believe different things, and its never okay to tell someone they are "wrong" about their personal beliefs. If one child believes in Santa and the other does not -- then they simply hold different beliefs. My older son has run into similar disagreements about belief in God -- nobody's life has been ruined. Its possible for children to respectfully disagree.

I feel angry on your dd's behalf -- its wrong for people to make assumptions about beliefs. My son does not go to public school, but many of our friends and neighbors do. I'm horrified every year by the content of the ps school curriculum -- it is a matter of fact that they will write letters to Santa in writing class, and they will make santa/reindeer/candycane projects in art. Its horrifying and incredibly disrespectful to me that they just "assume" everyone will be into all this.

My son's private school goes over the basics of many different December holidays. They actually downplay Christmas. Last year a Jewish mom came in and cooked with the class, and taught them to play "dreidle." Did I spell that right?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

T Hanukah Harry? I believe there was a Saturday Night Live sketch about Hanukah Harry. That totally great actor, Jon Lovitz, played him. It was funny. Hanukah Harry subs for Santa, which makes all the non-Jewish children happy--but brings them socks and underwear as Christmas presents, which confuses them. I love Jon Lovitz. The cantor in my mom's schul looks just like him, so whenever I go there I have to stifle my laughter.

Ramadan is on a lunar calendar so it falls each year at a slightly different time. Hanukah is on a luni-solar calendar, so it's always a at a different time but generally falls during December.

The presents-at-Hanukah thing isn't such a big deal. Jewish children used to get money to gamble with (







) and then that changed to presents, I think to compete with Christmas. But it is fun to exchange presents. For the last 25-30 years it's been traditional to give children (and grown-ups) chocolate coins for gambling. In my family I remember gambling with pretzels.

There are lots of fun things for children that are a normal part of Hanukah. This includes the actual mitzvah (commandment) to light candles where people can see them. Children can arrange the candles in their menorah in the color order they like, or you can use oil wicks, which is very cool. The dreidel is a naturally fun thing for children. Fried foods, fun for children. (Okay, fried foods are fun for everyone!







) You can make homemade applesauce to go with your latkes, that's a fun thing. Parties are fun. Dreidels are fun, whether you gamble with them or not (and no matter how you spell them.) The story of Hanukah is an interesting story to learn, and that's fun. (Don't forget to teach your daughters about the female heroines attached to Hanukah.)

Socks and underwear are fun presents.







ag

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's fun to be Jewish, even during Christmas. What's not fun is dealing with people's intolerance. Luckily for all of us who are various kinds of minorities, the general trend in our country is tolerance and freedom of religion. God rest ye merry, gentlewomen.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Thanks everyone.
















I have to admit, I was put off by the post that pointed out that the majority of Americans celebrate Christmas. I kinda knew that already...







: And I can't figure out the purpose of telling me that - was it to suggest that I should just shut up and deal with it because I'm a minority? Yeah, just like all those African-Americans should quit complaining about taxicabs passing them by or being followed around by security guards in stores...don't they know that 75% of people living in America are white???







:

I'm not usually this snotty or sarcastic, but I couldn't help myself.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I've never met a real live Jewish person. I mean, I talk to you guys, but never in person. I promise, if I were to ask your children about Christmas, I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive. (This, of course, is assuming I'd meet you without knowing who you are, see. It'd be rather retarded of me to ask if I already KNEW, ya know?) It just wouldn't occur to me.

In general, I dislike people asking my kids about what they're getting for Christmas. That's putting the focus on the wrong thing. But people like to make small talk and that's an easy conversation with a lot of kids.

I'm with captain optimism. Enjoy your traditions and beliefs and teach your children the songs, games and stories. Also, tell your kids the truth about Santa. She's not going to ruin anything for someone else. If they want to believe bad enough, they will.

The most important thing...I can't know everything about everyone upon a chance meeting in the line at the supermarket. I can either be friendly and make conversation and enjoy myself, or I can fear saying the wrong thing and be quiet and not enjoy the company of others around me. If I say the wrong thing, tell me so. I might learn something.









(I loved that Jon Lovitz sketch, btw. There isn't really a Hanukah Harry, is there?)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I agree with all the posters who suggested playing up all the fun parts of your celebration, and also telling her that Santa isn't real.

And while I do agree that not honoring other religions in public school is insensitive, I have to say that I think it's kind of a leap to call people rude and insensitive if they say "Merry Christmas" or ask a kid about Santa. I understand your perspective, but they are just trying to be nice, and we all make assumptions when we don't know someone. Maybe we assume they are American, maybe we assume they were not adopted. Asking a child what they want for their birthday and then finding out that their family are Jehovah's Witness doesn't make them rude, IMO. I am all for being culturally sensitive, but it comes to a point where no one can say anything without fear of upsetting someone.

Just kind of a related story: My mom was at the grocery store the other day, and saw two men getting out of the car next to her with a baby. She said to them something like "Oh, I love to see two men shopping with a baby!" (My mom talks to strangers a lot.) In her mind, she was being complimentary that they were taking on typically female responsibilities. Inside the store, one of the men approached her and said "You know, that's OUR baby." And she said, "Well, I assumed it was your baby." And he said "No, it's OUR baby." She finally got what he was saying - that they were a gay couple that had adopted the baby. She said "Oh, I like that even better!" in a cheerful voice. He just kind of glared at her and walked away. So somehow he was offended by her comments, when in reality she would be the first person to wholeheartedly support same sex couples raising children, and certainly didn't mean anything negative. But it gets to a point where we're all going to have to stop even talking to strangers for fear of offending them, and that just isn't right.

So instead of being angry that it doesn't occur to other people that maybe you don't celebrate Christmas, maybe see it as an opportunity to educate them on your holiday, and show your daughter that you are proud of your heritage.

Oh, and when the other poster said that 89% of people celebrated Christmas, I thought she was just pointing out that since so many people celebrate Christmas that it kind of explained why they assumed that the person they are talking to would. I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Other people do that, we do this. Plain & simple.










The jealousy part is tough, but if you're consistent in not making it like you've got "sloppy seconds," IYKWIM, then your child won't feel like that, either.

And in re: the 89 percent who celebrate Christmas, etc., etc., etc. ... this is not just in America. It's a world-wide fact of life for Jews. In only one country in the world ... count 'em, folks, one ... can Jews say the majority celebrates Chanuka.

Only one.

Only one country in the world where you don't have to worry about final exams possibly scheduled for Shavuot, or job deadlines scheduled for Sukkot, or even school orientations for Rosh HaShanah. Not to mention birthday parties (with cake, right?) during Passover. Or the boss expecting you to be able to come in to work on Saturday.

Which is what Jews world-over put up with on a regular basis. Because people make assumptions. And because there's only one place where Jews are the majority, slim though that majority may be.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

T again: I just wanted to post a link to a photo of the guy who looks like Jon Lovitz mainly for Chelle's benefit. If you scroll down to the photo of him in his special cantor's hat (not too many cantors wear those anymore, ya know) you will understand why I crack up whenever I go to this synagogue. Also, he's got a great voice, but sometimes his use of vibrato reminds me of Jon Lovitz, too. (Who also has a great voice. Jon Lovitz is a very talented guy.







)

I guess, for me, the thing isn't that people shouldn't say "Merry X-mas" or whatever, but that it's tough for a mom to figure out how to support her child in being in the minority. That's what I got from the OP. Jews are actually a very small minority in the US as a whole, maybe 2% of the entire population.

My dh still hates hearing X-mas music, still gets all annoyed at the overwhelming Christmas cheer. But not me. I have no problem when people wish me a Merry Christmas, I always find some way to say something nice back. Until this discussion, I thought this was because of my positive contact with Christmas when I worked at a Catholic children's hospital.

But now I think it was because my mom made us feel good about Hanukah when I was child. My dh said, "But you lived in a mainly Jewish area when you were growing up!" True! But that didn't mean we weren't completely *bombarded* with Christmas, just like everyone else in the United States. Still it was a special thing for me that my mom had actually made us some decorations, and they were pretty good. Other Jewish kids in our area actually had Christmas trees.







:

I still arrange the Hanukah candles in a particular order.









(I also really enjoy my movies and Chinese food experience on X-mas. )

Anyway, thank you for helping me find another thing that my mom did right.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

co: That link is getting a lot of hits, I think. LOL I'm waaaaiting.

If it makes your dh feel any better at all, ~I~ get tired of all the Christmas cheer. Especially since it's starting in OCTOBER now. Arrrgh!!!

Happy Holidays!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'm sorry your DD is going through this.

I'm assuming the poster who posted the Christmas stats didn't realize that non-Christians celebrated Christmas and wanted to show that you *could* celebrate Santa but not embrace Christianity. I don't know them, though, so I don't know for sure.

I wanted to mention that, as a Christian, I get sick of people asking about Santa. DS (2) is terrified of him, DD (4) will *look* at him, but not get within 10 feet. Also, we do stockings as "gift bags" for Baby Jesus' birthday. So, they get things like gummy bears, lol. They don't really ask Santa for things and they definately know they are getting them--- if they are "good" or not. I HATE people asking my kids if they've been "good enough" for Santa to come. The last thing I need is my kids thinking they're not good enough for a fat little man to break & enter their house!

I always try to say "Seasons Greetings" or "Happy Holidays" hoping that is okay. Is it?


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Just wanted to say that if you are going to tell your DD that there is no Santa Clause maybe you could also point out that the idea of Santa Clause did come from an actual person and tell her teh story of Saint Nicolas and how he used to leave little presenstf ro the children. Just so she knows that there was a "santa clause " in history and not just a mad up commercial type thing. This is what we did for DS. He knows that the ,all santa do not really bring him gifts but that there is an idea or memory behind those he sees so he's less inclined to dissapoint other childrens beliefs that way. Just a though.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:

And while I do agree that not honoring other religions in public school is insensitive, I have to say that I think it's kind of a leap to call people rude and insensitive if they say "Merry Christmas" or ask a kid about Santa.
Hey, wait, I never said anyone was rude. I know they are just being friendly, it just bugs me that people don't think first before they make assumptions, and it bugs me that it's creating Santa-envy in my child.


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

I agree it's not rude or disrespectful to talk about Christmas to kids. Again, my example is homeschooling (really, it's related!) It's not religion obviously, but homeschoolers are in the minority everywhere and, other than in December, asking about school is the number 1 topic of conversation with kids (even in the summer it's "are you glad school is out?" or "are you going to school this fall?"). I don't think it's rude or disrespectful for people to ask these questions. Yes, it is at times annoying, but I recognize that since the large majority of kids in this country go to school, they are simply making an assumption based on that fact. It may be ignorance, but I wouldn't call it rude.

And what someone said about feeling good about Chanukah goes for me and homeschooling too (I promise, I do have more than a one track mind








) When my dd was younger and people asked if she was going to school I just said no. We started getting questions when she was 2 and for a few years I would just say no and leave it at that. When she was 4 I finally realized that instead of focusing on what she was *not* doing, I needed to focus on what we *were* doing. Not talking about homeschooling it was as if I was embarrassed or something. So I started telling complete strangers we were homeschooling when they asked if she was in school. Now she's 5 and she proudly says it herself









So for the Christmas thing, you need to take the focus off of what you aren't doing and focus on what you *are* doing. Show your dd that you are proud of who you are instead of letting her focus on what she thinks she's missing


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

LunaMom, we posted the same time







I just wanted to say my post wasn't implying you said it was rude, I just was responding to other posts. And I like to ramble on, :LOL


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

Hannukkah Harry appears every year at our house!

This time of year is really really tough. Our ds is surrounded by Santa and Christmas at school and in our neighborhood. He knows who Santa is. He thinks Santa is funny. I think he even thinks Santa is real.

As a Jewish child growing up I always felt like I got the short end of the deal and I really hated being different. I know everyone tried to make things special, but it really can be tough to compete and understand why others have this big gorgeous tree full of lights and you light candles. Everything is Christmas. Unless you live in a Jewish area, you really don't see anything about Hannukkah.

Since Sam is now really interested in holidays we are trying to make everything a really big deal. For our Hannukkah celebration we have dreidel lights that we put in our bedroom windows (think Christmas lights that you would hang in the window only they are colorful driedels), window clings with Happy Hannukkah and kids doing celebratory things, we have our menorahs, a wall hanging, blue lights for our big window downstairs (okay, yes these technically are Christmas lights, but they are blue and look really nice in the window), and a door hanging for our front door. Dh was thinking that maybe we should get our own little tree thing and hang blue ornaments from it as long as it isn't a conifer. I did buy blue and silver ornaments that are really quite nice (oh, and the price was right). I just don't know how I feel.

In a nutshell, I think this is THE most difficult time of year for Jewish children. Especially those who don't live in predominantly Jewish areas. We need to make the holiday special anyway we can.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

The story of Hannukkah Harry

The Night Hannukkah Harry Saved Christmas

http://www.leenite.org/jonisland/hharry/hh_xmas1.htm


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mirlee_
*The story of Hannukkah Harry

The Night Hannukkah Harry Saved Christmas

http://www.leenite.org/jonisland/hharry/hh_xmas1.htm*








I prostrate myself before your superior web research skills. You rock. Jon Lovitz forever!









Also, have you heard about this crazy new movie ? I am NOT suggesting that anyone take an impressionable child to see this!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm sorry, I wasn't saying that anyone in particular was saying that it was rude, but it's a sentiment that I've heard before - that it's culturally insensitive to assume that everyone celebrates Christmas. I was just trying to say that I don't think that it's necessarily insensitive. If a Jewish person wished me Happy Hannukah, I wouldn't be taken aback by their insensitivity since I celebrate Christmas, so I see it as going both ways. That said, though, I do tend to definitely say "Happy Holidays" or something like that, just because I don't want to offend anyone. I tend to make sure that Christmas cards I buy say "Peace" or "Happy Holidays" or something besides "Merry Christmas" because I do have some Jewish friends, and even though some of them celebrate Christmas as well and wouldn't care at all what my cards said, I still would rather err on the side of caution. I've always been surprised when corporate cards are sent out en masse that have a specific religious theme.

Anyway, I guess my original response didn't really address what the OP was having a hard time with, sorry about that.

I also HATE it when people ask kids if they've been "good" this year. We totally do the whole Santa thing, but never with the good/bad distinction (other than when joking around). I find it incredibly manipulative.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I seem to be the only one who came to this conclusion but...

...when I read the "stats" post by Sharonal, I assumed her point was that since most people here celebrate Christmas, you're probably going to be in the situation of the OP (and others like her) in hearing that as a greeting alot. I sure DIDN'T get that she was suggesting you should celebrate Christmas just b/c the majority do!!! :









Anyways, I think we all need to ask ourselves, what would we do/feel in the reverse situation?

If I decided to up and move my Christmas-celebrating family to a country that was predominantly Jewish, I would not be the LEAST bit offended if everybody was saying "Happy Hannukah" and asking my DD if she got to light the menora last night. Or if we moved to a Muslim country I would expect Ramadan to rule the calender of activities at that time of year, kwim?

So I guess I don't understand why people get so upset at all the Christmas greetings in a country where most people celebrate Christmas?

I honestly believe that the people who are asking your DD about Santa and Christmas are _only trying to be sweet and nice_ and I think the very best way to "give them an education" is to respond in the same polite and sweet way that you don't celebrate Christmas, you celebrate [insert festival here] and btw DD is *very* excited about [insert fun part of festival here].

I can see how it gets frustrating, just like I get tired sometimes of "sleeping through the night" questions and things related to cribs and bottles, lol. But I accept that it's the way things are, and don't get rude about it (not saying anyone here DID get rude, I just think it's important not to let that frustration come out at the expense of the poor slob who wished you a Merry Xmas for the 1000th time that day).


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I generally say happy holidays around this time of year, instead of Merry Christmas. I do think people need are just asking about Santa to be nice, but lots of people don't do the santa thing, regardless of religion. DD is still scared of Santa- so we're talking about it, but not going to see him.

I do hear your frustration. I'm taking a multicultural education class this semester and it brings out a lot of good points of being considerate to people of other cultural and ethnic backgrounds.

I'm sorry your dd is feeling bad about santa.


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## Dakota's Mom (Apr 8, 2003)

This is the most difficult time of the year for a lot of people I think. I tend to say things like Christmas tree, and Christmas shopping because I just don't want to explain that we don't celebrate Christmas one more time. People look at you like you're crazy. We have gone round and round in trying to decide what or how we want to celebrate with DS who is now 17 months old. We finally decided that Santa who is a wonderful old fairy, will be bringing a stocking of small goodies on Solstice eve. We share gifts with each other on the evening of Solstice. Then on Christmas eve we join with DH's Jewish sister and her family to open Christmas gifts at their Catholic parents house. All of the children, the pagan grandson and the Jewish granddaughters receive gifts from Santa and Hannukah Harry. It makes for quite an eclectic family gathering. We have our own Solstice celebration with our friends on the Saturday before Solstice and the Jewish relatives celebrate with their other Jewish family members. It gets interesting when everyone is wishing the "correct" holiday greeting to each family member.

No matter what you celebrate in your family, I hope each of you has a blessed and joyfilled holiday season and a most wonderful new year.
Kathi


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Piglet68, I think the issue was how it effects the children ... and when it's in the children's face like that, well, it's piled on top of the fact that Christmas is ubiquitous. On TV, on the street, in the stores, in the store windows ... it's inescapable, and so overwhelming ... that can make even strongly Jewishly-identified kids ... or any other non-Christmas celebrating kids ... a little wistful, IYKWIM.

And in re the stats post, and moving your family to a predominantly Chanuka-celebrating country ... that was entirely my point. I got it that way, too. As I stated in response, there's only one country in the universe in that situation, and it's such a novelty-concept ... throughout the world, everywhere a Jewish person goes, they're "the other." So to me it doesn't make sense to be bothered by it, but it does make a lot of sense that "a Jew should know where it's at," as my Rebbe z'l would say, and shore up the Jewish pride in our children, to avoid the inevitable trampling of self-esteem that comes from being "the other."


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Amy, you're right. That's a very good point.

Of course, this year has been a total





















for me. I grew up celebrating Christmas, as did DH, but now he wants to convert to Judaism so we're doing Hannukah this year. Even if we were doing Christmas, I think we would have skipped the tree simply b/c it's asking for trouble with a toddler around. And I have no idea what we'll be doing next year either.

When the librarian asked DD if we were having a Christmas tree this year, I had absolutely no idea what to say, LOL.

But you're right. Being the minority in anything is hard for kids, and I can imagine the Holiday season is particularly rough considering the commercial bombardment of "Christmas".


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## Annoia (Nov 16, 2003)

I wear Islamic dress and people STILL wish me a Merry Christmas! I think they're being really nice (although a bit ignorant) so I simply say 'thank you' or 'you too' and smile. Hey, at least they're not yelling at me to "go back to where I came from", right?









But that is TOTALLY different than someone approaching my child about Santa. My Ilyas is still too young to comprehend Santa, but I think if someone were to ask him about Santa when he's older I would tell him to be honest - we're Muslim and we don't celebrate Christmas. But he's only 3 months old right now so it's all easy for me to say









I'm sorry your daughter feels bad. I hope the two of you find a way to successfully deal with this situation!

cheers
umm ilyas


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## LambQueen (Mar 20, 2003)

As a Jewish girl, probably my best "holiday season" was the one I spent during college studying abroad in the country where Hanukah is celebrated by the majority. The thrill I had when I would ride the bus from the center of town back to my dorm in the evening was unlike any other. Rather than seeing Christmas trees in the windows (which I do think are beautiful!), I saw hanukah lights in practically every window (for all the New Yorkers: reminding me of the time we used to drive home from visiting family in Long Island, and pass Co-Op City in the Bronx, and I would count the electric menorahs in the windows - there were lots!).

I ate jelly donuts instead of candy canes. Potato pancakes instead of egg nog. You get the picture.

I used to love the fact that I knew that Santa was the same person as the Easter Bunny...I definitely think you should be open about this. She won't spill the beans. It's her little priviledge to know this!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by UmmIlyas_
*I wear Islamic dress and people STILL wish me a Merry Christmas! I think they're being really nice (although a bit ignorant) so I simply say 'thank you' or 'you too' and smile. Hey, at least they're not yelling at me to "go back to where I came from", right?








*


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by captain optimism_
*Uh, and you think you need to point this out why? .*
I brought it up to show that for most Americans, asking someone about Christmas is a "nice" thing to do, and it is not meant to hurt her daughter's feelings. The majority of people celebrate it. If they ask you about it, it's not because they're trying to be insensitive.

I was NOT trying to imply that she was unaware of the fact that most people celebrate it, just trying to make her aware of others' intentions.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Last year, my niece was in Kindergarten and came home from school one day in hysterical tears. The kids at school were talking about their Christmas trees and Santa Claus and going to church for midnight mass (a very special treat, to be up that late when you're 5/6 years old). My niece said "Oh, we don't celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Channukah" and the kids told her that if you don't have a Christmas tree, you don't get presents. She said that she'd gotten lots of presents from her mom and they said "Yeah, but Santa brings more presents than your parents."

The worst part was, her teacher *encouraged* the other children in their strongly anti-Channukah behaviors. I suppose that because my niece is very obviously not white that it was somehow wrong for her to be so defensive of Channukah; after all, she doesn't even "look Jewish", so she must be mistaken.







There were two other Jewish kids in her class, but my niece was by far the most vocal (and the most informed) about Channukah. She was the only one who got upset, and she really felt like her whole class and her teacher were ganging up on her. She begged for a Christmas tree until *January*. Every time someone asked her if she'd been good this year or if Santa was coming, she'd become surly and miserable.

I really think people should be more considerate to children than that. I don't care if the majority of people celebrate Christmas. It's not that difficult to say "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings". Or even to ask "What do you celebrate this time of year?" (Though I've never heard that question outside of a college campus from people who weren't already fully aware that I'm not Christian.)

And I totally agree about the minority in any situation knowing more about the majority culture. I can say Hail Mary in English, Latin, and German, but how many Christians do you know who can say the Shema at all? I have a more thorough understanding of Christian dogma than most Christians I've encountered. It's never necessary to point out to a member of a minority that they are, in fact, a member of a minority. We are very much aware of it from early childhood.


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

T

What? She didn't invent Hannukah Harry? I can't remember if she said she did, but never mentioned SNL either.

How did I never see that skit? I love SNL...

Ok, back to your regular discussion...


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by eilonwy_
*I really think people should be more considerate to children than that.*
Eilonwy, that was a horrible story, but I really don't think it is the same as people innocently asking a kid if santa is coming for them. Instead, that's (IMO) a story of a teacher who needs to be fired. If there had been a competent, caring teacher at the head of her class that day it could have ended up a far different situation. The class might have actually *learned* something. Instead she had a cruel bigot for a teacher and that's what happened to your poor neice. I hope she has a better teacher this year.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Wow, this thread is long, and I have thought of many things to say while reading it- let's see how many I can remember









I was going to bring up the Friends episode too









I am a Catholic, we celebrate Christmas, and I am annoyed by people asking my kids about Santa, for one, b/c I am not doing the "santa" thing, and two- because it is not the appropriate focus of the season for us.

One of the main reasons we (I







) decided not to "do santa" (beyond the lying involved) is b/c of how it makes other kids feel. My thoughts- I admit though, were always focused on the "poor" kids, who wouldn't get anything from Santa b/c of money issues, I am glad to have read this thread, and realized another great reason. Whenever the "santa" issue comes up on boards I visit, I always try to tell people how happiness and magic can be created without the risk of hurting other kids (again, I was always thinking of the poor previously).

My main point here is that you should tell your dd, absolutely, no question in my mind, if some kid who "believes" in Santa learns the truth, are they really "hurt" by your dd, are they really "hurt" at all? OTOH- your dd is hurting, and I think it is your job to correct that, and also- to everyone who points out how these people mean well (which I believe they do)- it is the responsibility of all people to be more sensitive to children, and to think of other things to talk to kids about (it's not hard), esp. if you have read this thread, you can learn from other people's mistakes which hurt children.

Also, I think you've gotten great suggestions from others on here on how to make your own celebration extra special for your dd, please though- do let her know about Santa, she deserves to know.


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Oh, I SO enjoyed reading this thread!!! Also hoping I can remember the responses I planned while reading.

First, I don't think it is RUDE when other people assume we celebrate Christmas... I think it is ANNOYING. :LOL For the five millionth time in my life, I have to decide whether to say, "Thanks, but we don't celebrate Xmas" or just keep it to myself. I know it will kind of embarrass the person, but I'm all about spreading the word, educating etc. But it gets old sometimes to have to be Jewish Ambassador To The World At Large.

Also, we just moved from NY, Jew Central, to Washington State, Nary a Jew in Sight. So I'm putting on my Ambassador suit and getting revved up to spread the word. We'll be having a giant Channukah party and inviting all our new friends who are, by and large, not Jewish. It'll be dreidels, gelt and latkes for everyone, but NO Channukah bush or Channukah Harry for me.

Why not? I don't want to be competing with Xmas. I dont' want to be borrowing from other traditions when we have nice fun stuff of our own. Truth be told, Channukah is such a minor holiday, only getting so much attention because of its proximity to Xmas.

We tell our kids that Santa Claus is part of a story that some people believe. (Uh oh, that's kinda the same thing we tell him about God!!) Four year old Sam will come out and say that Santa is not real. My husband says, no wonder everyone hates the Jews.









My inlaws are Catholic, so we have an interesting situation... we identify as Jewish, but Sam knows that some "Easter people" as he puts it, are in our family.

Hmm.. I think I had more to say on this subject, but....

Oh, about that place where the majority of people are Jewish. (Not Long Island.) I remember the odd but amazing feeling when being there, of FINALLY not having to explain myself.

merpk said:

Quote:

Only one country in the world where you don't have to worry about final exams possibly scheduled for Shavuot, or job deadlines scheduled for Sukkot, or even school orientations for Rosh HaShanah. Not to mention birthday parties (with cake, right?) during Passover. Or the boss expecting you to be able to come in to work on Saturday.
I identified with this so closely. On so many occasions we've been met with this type of conflict. People don't mean to be inconsiderate, but they just don't THINK about Jewish observance. I am by no means "observant" but I have raised a fuss on many occasions when a professor wanted to penalize me for missing class on the first night of Passover. It becomes a personal choice, do I want to be Jewish or go to Band Camp? Do I want to be Jewish or miss class? Having to make this choice again and again has made me somewhat of a sourpuss about it. It's no fun to miss out!









My husband converted to Judaism and is not strongly identified. He often chooses to go to work on major holidays. He feels like missing work on Yom Kippur is asking for special treatment. He doesn't want to do that. He feels he is being irresponsible to miss work for major Jewish holidays. That irks me.

Have I gone on long enough? Thnks for listening. Hope I addressed some point, somewhere! :LOL

Oh, I thougth of one other funny thing. I worked as a teacher in an all-girls private Catholic High School on Chicago's south side. For many girls, I was the only Jew they had ever met in person (or even heard of). They were appalled that I did not celebrate CHristmas. They felt so *bad* for me! They thougth I was just ill-informed. "You know, Ms. G. you could have a Christmas tree if you want one!" Clearly, I just needed to read a few books, so I could know THE TRUTH! Such warm hearts!

xoxo pam


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Oh, about that place where the majority of people are Jewish.

Quote:

in the country where Hanukah is celebrated by the majority.

Quote:

In only one country in the world ... count 'em, folks, one ... can Jews say the majority celebrates Chanuka.

Okay, so why won't you say the name of the country?


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:

Okay, so why won't you say the name of the country?
Thanks for asking that IrishMommy -- I had lots of thoughts/comments as I read through the thread, but that's the only thing I *really* want to know!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

I dunno, I was just going with the flow.







Was there a reason you said it like that, Amy?


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Was it needed for sharonal to bring those stats up?? Sheesh...was it needed for the snarky replies??

Is THAT what non-Christmas celebrations are about? Two wrongs making a right????










As a Christian, I have to say this whole thing irked me.....uhm....if you are so schooled in what it's like to be raised in America they you should respect the fact that Christmas today IS NOT AT ALL about the religious aspects of it. It's a friggin' Hallmark Holiday and there a few token pictures of a blue eyed baby Jesus (uhm...except he probably didn't HAVE blue eyes, but whatever) to make people feel better or whatnot but it's NOT a religious holiday anymore for the VAST majority of Americans and, as someone who DOES celebrate Jesus' birthday, I find it offensive all this claiming that it is. Our country is bass ackwards about everything, including holidays that were MEANT to be religious but AREN'T anymore.

That said...I *get* that most people DON'T get the meaning of Christmas anymore, and thats ok. Cause it's NOT about the birth of Christ for most people and I can't make it be for them. All I can do is teach what I want to teach in my home and hope my children carry that on later when THEY have kids.

As my high school best friend used to say....Merry Nuckin' Christmas.







:


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

anothermama, I get that you're angry... but I am not sure exactly what you're upset about.

are you angry about the way your holiday is celebrated? I'm unsure how that is relating to the topic of Jewish minority response to being, um... minorities.

I am sincerely unclear, not trying to be a jerk.


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## Annoia (Nov 16, 2003)

ummm, I was kinda wondering the same thing! Anothermama, you seemed a bit peeved in your post. And like Pamelamama, I don't understand why. I hope you weren't offended by anything that was said.

Quote:

Is THAT what non-Christmas celebrations are about? Two wrongs making a right????
Noooo, I don't think so? But honestly, I can't really put into words right now how it can feel to be minority believer. I'm not Jewish (I'm Muslim) but I relate to everything that was said about this topic. Sometimes things are just a bit frustrating...


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## Annoia (Nov 16, 2003)

ummm, I was kinda wondering the same thing! Anothermama, you seemed a bit peeved in your post. And like Pamelamama, I don't understand why. I hope you weren't offended by anything that was said.

Quote:

Is THAT what non-Christmas celebrations are about? Two wrongs making a right????
Noooo, I don't think so? But honestly, I can't really put into words right now how it can feel to be minority believer. I'm not Jewish (I'm Muslim) but I relate to everything that was said about this topic. Sometimes things are just a bit frustrating...


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Irishmommy_
*Okay, so why won't you say the name of the country?*
If she had a reason at all (I don't automatically assume so) mabey it was that she did not wish for this discussion to turn political, as seems to happen here whenever the country that I live in is mentioned. Israel, folks, its Israel.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*








Was it needed for sharonal to bring those stats up?? Sheesh...was it needed for the snarky replies??
Is THAT what non-Christmas celebrations are about? Two wrongs making a right????*
How can I respond to this without seeming snarky to you?

I would hardly characterize Hanukah as a "non-Christmas celebration". I have a holiday at this time of year. It's not the "non-Christmas" holiday. It's another, very minor holiday called Hanukah. And it IS kind of about two wrongs making a right!







It's a holiday about winning a battle in a war and regaining the right to practice our religion freely. The second part has always been the theme of the holiday for me.

I thought the point of this thread was, how do you deal with being in a minority. To me, being a minority is about what you are, not what you aren't. I like being in the minority here in the US, because we aren't a homogeneous country. I don't have to fight to preserve my holy places here. Nothing against Israel, now. But I don't think it's bad to be a minority. In some ways it's cool.

Quote:

*As a Christian, I have to say this whole thing irked me.....uhm....if you are so schooled in what it's like to be raised in America they you should respect the fact that Christmas today IS NOT AT ALL about the religious aspects of it.*
As a Christian, you should know that the history of your holiday isn't that it has become less religious and debased by commercialism. Until the mid 19th century, Christmas in the US and England used to be a very rowdy holiday, kind of like Halloween. Young people roamed the streets going from house to house, demanding nice food and drink. That was the reason that the Puritans banned Christmas. I read a nice history of Christmas a few years ago; later i'll come back and edit this post to add the title.

One thing Christmas and Hanukah have in common, besides the season, is that both holidays were rehabilitated by religious authorities to put God back into the celebration.

Edited to add: the name of the book was The Battle for Christmas by Stephen Nissenbaum. You can read a summary of the history in the book onthe Straight Dope website.

By the way, I didn't get "schooled" in what it's like to grow up in the US. There aren't classes in that. I was just born here and grew up here.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Thanks, BB. And that's exactly right. Was trying to keep this apolitical. Not so simple, as we all know.










and anothermama, in re: what "non-Christmas" celebrations are about ... Jesus probably celebrated Chanuka, so you might want to find out what he thought of such "non-Christmas" celebrations as part of your trying-to-figure-it-all-out.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I really LOVE the word "snarky".

I'm going to have to work that into my vocabulary.

Snarkysnarkysnarky.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

chelle: I too LOVE the word "snarky"...it's easy to sneak in here and there.....try it, it's addictive. :LOL

all: The thread didn't seem to be AT ALL about dealing with being a minority. I am one....when I talk about what it's like to DEAL with being a minority, it's not about being snarky to others and bitching about how the world wrongs me everyday. Feel free to bitch....I love a good bitch fest as much as the next person....but thats not really DEALING, yk?

All I meant was there was much sentiment of "Why does everyone push this CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY on me when I'm NOT CHRISTIAN". And, well, as a Christian, I don't think it's a Christian holiday at all. It's a Hallmark holiday and if you don't LIKE it, thats ok, but the reality is that in 2003, it has VERY LITTLE to do with religion and to keep saying so is offensive to Christians who DO celebrate the birth of Christ.

Living in America, I don't feel like Chanuka is a "minor" celebration at all. Everywhere I go, there is a Chanuka section of decorations, theres ads in the paper for Chanuka open houses at certain temples....sure, it's not as MUCH as Christmas, but it's not some minor thing that no one knows about either. It's a pretty BIG presence, and I live in California for petes sake. My old roomie from New York would TEASE us about the LACK of Chanuka and Jewish things here even!

Oh bah humbug.....maybe I should go back to bed.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

And, well, as a Christian, I don't think it's a Christian holiday at all.
That is your opinion. The facts about this holiday, not the way it is celebrated though, is that it is in celebration of something significant in the CHRISTIAN faith. If it is not a re;igious holiday at all, then why do you celebrate it?
As I said in the "seasons greetings" thread you can't know how you would react if it were you, because it is not. Chanuka is definately not "everywhere" like christmas is- and it shouldn't be chanukah is a MINOR jewish holiday. Its "majorazation" yet another CHRISTIAN influence on our jewish lives.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*all: The thread didn't seem to be AT ALL about dealing with being a minority. ll I meant was there was much sentiment of "Why does everyone push this CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY on me when I'm NOT CHRISTIAN". And, well, as a Christian, I don't think it's a Christian holiday at all. It's a Hallmark holiday and if you don't LIKE it, thats ok, but the reality is that in 2003, it has VERY LITTLE to do with religion and to keep saying so is offensive to Christians who DO celebrate the birth of Christ.

Living in America, I don't feel like Chanuka is a "minor" celebration at all.
*
Are we even reading the same thread? What I read was, the OP's daughter felt sad because she doesn't get to have Santa and everyone assumes she does. Then everyone chimed in to say, "Tell her Santa isn't real and make a big deal about Hanukah."

Some folks wanted to make sure that we Jews and Muslims know what Christmas is really about, or how many people celebrate it, or something. We know, already. It's very nice. There's a lot of nice Christmas music, there are colored lights, pleasant smelling tree indoors, special cookies, eggnog, they exchange gifts--it's a lovely holiday. Who wouldn't like it.

It's obvious that no one means anything nasty when they say "Merry Christmas" to a Jewish child. But it's still a parenting issue for Jewish parents. It's even more obvious when you are an adult and Christmas music is blaring on the radio everywhere you go--they aren't doing it to annoy people, they play the music and put up decorations to make people feel good. It happens to be very annoying, but that's not the intention.

Now *you* are all annoyed that people are saying that Christmas is a Christian holiday. As though somehow we are saying something bad about Christians? Is that the problem? You don't want to be associated with Christmas? Okay, I don't associate you with Christmas. Are you unhappy that you know too much about Hanukah? I'm very sorry for you. I won't offer you a jelly doughnut. Happy New Year.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

To clear things up:

1. This thread is about dealing with being a minority - more specifically, about being a minority at this particular time of the year. I don't think you have to be a minority to understand what the thread is about.

2. I don't think anyone was "bitching". The OP was looking for advice and support regarding her daughter's tender feelings. She's gotten some great feedback. I think it's overall very positive. Heck, we even got to talk about Jon Lovitz.

3. A whole bunch of Christians do indeed believe Christmas is a Christian holiday. I'd even bet Hallmark has nothing to do with it for THOUSANDS of 'em.

4. I'm crossing my fingers for that jelly doughnut.


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## Annoia (Nov 16, 2003)

Ok so I looked at the OP. She said people were asking her daughter about christmas trees and whats-santa-bringing. I though about it a little, and decided that asking a child about trees and presents maybe isn't such a good idea no matter what faith the child is. Not to sound overly PC, but some children (actually, plenty in my area) can't afford christmas trees and presents. How would that child feel? I would imagine pretty darn unhappy. I'm probably going way overboard with this. Feel free to toss cyber tomatoes!

cheers
umm ilyas


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Hey, hey, hey...it's me, the OP you're all referring to...

Whoopeeeee, I started a fight!!!









Peace, everyone







...and I'd like a jelly doughnut, too - actually my DD and friends will be enjoying some sufganiyot at preschool this week!

I'm really surprised by some of the turns this thread has taken!

Honestly, it can be tough to be a non-Christian this time of year when you have children. Every store has huge Christmas displays, even the supermarket. Christmas music is playing everywhere. Christmas movies, Christmas tv specials, commercials with a Christmas theme for various products, none of which are Christmas related, Christmas designs on clothing in major chain stores...imagine how it feels to a child who does not participate in any of it. It is like the world is saying, "You don't exist. You don't count. You're not one of us."

I never minded this before I had a child; I grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood and by the time I was an adult, I didn't care, but now I see the world through my daughter's eyes and I feel for her.

Stop arguing about religion and politics, please! I was just asking for some helpful advice in how to make my DD feel better.


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## me&3 (Nov 29, 2001)

What a fun thread for me to read.







Very snarky... :LOL (actually, I like the way that word sounds, too.. but not too clear on the meaning!)

Anywho. I grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood, but of course the Christmas thing was enormous every year. I always got annoyed at it. I remember once getting annoyed at my mom for singing along with a Christmas song on the radio!

I thoroughly enjoyed living in a Jewish majority in Israel for many years. I do miss it.

Now I see my kids dealing with it. My 7 yo is doing what I did - saying, "Ima, that's not OUR holiday song, why are you singing? You can't!" :LOL I don't see any Christmas envy - yet - but we did have Haloween envy this year. Hmm. Not yet sure what to do about that.

My 4 yo goes to a Jewish preschool, and is full of stories about the Maccabees. I don't think he's even noticed Christmas yet. And of course the 2 yo is too young, too.

I'm not sure if I have any advice - except for sending the kids to day school! At least all the kids are in the same boat... eh, school.


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

I'm also sorry to see this thread go "snarky" And frankly, pretty confused as to why it happened







: Anyway, I hope my advice and the advice of the other well meaning moms was appreciated









So now







T What do jelly donuts have to do with Chanuka? I'm very curious


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I was talking to an Orthodox friend of mine on Saturday night at our women's circle. The theme was reconnecting with yourself, the holidays, or reconnecting with yourself during the holidays.
My Jewish friend said she loved Christmas. That it wasn't about Christianity for most people anymore; that just for a day or two, the majority of all Americans try to be kind and do the right thing and slow down and appreciate what they have. Sure would be nice if people were like this everyday... but, whatever







:
I think what Sharonal was trying to say is the fact that the vast majority does celebrate Christmas. If I lived in Israel, I would expect the "Happy Hannukahs" and the onslaught of the menorahs in the windows and whatnot.
I can totally see how all of the Christmas holabaloo is making your DD feel bad, though. Do you live near a strong community of Jewish people? Is there a way that you can really make Hannukah seem just as wonderful to her as Christmas seems? Like... special stories each night about the wonders and beauty of it over a mug of cocoa; beautiful lights in the house; stories of your family and their roots; go all out and let her see that your holiday is just as fantastic as what she perceives Christmas to be!

Quote:

If it is not a re;igious holiday at all, then why do you celebrate it?
I don't celebrate Christmas for the birth of Christ; I actually believe in bits and pieces of every spiritual belief and religion. We think it's just a great way to feel good and appreciate life and family... and slow down and eat good food and do kind things. Maybe you can explain that this is what Christmas is for most people... and that you have the same exact thing, 'cept for its imbued with extra special meaning as Jewish people.


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## tinams8 (Aug 3, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by UmmIlyas_
*Ok so I looked at the OP. She said people were asking her daughter about christmas trees and whats-santa-bringing. I though about it a little, and decided that asking a child about trees and presents maybe isn't such a good idea no matter what faith the child is. Not to sound overly PC, but some children (actually, plenty in my area) can't afford christmas trees and presents. How would that child feel? I would imagine pretty darn unhappy. I'm probably going way overboard with this. Feel free to toss cyber tomatoes!
*
I have to agree, I am not crazy about people who immediately focus on the gift giving side of Christmas, what do you want, what are you asking Santa for, etc.... there are so many less materialistic questions that they could ask. I guess it's hard to think of small talk directed at children sometimes, and people without small children are probably not too concerned about what is pc. I'm sure it will get worse after Christmas when everyone starts asking "what did Santa bring you?" I never believed in Santa and I had no clue what to say to that one as a kid.

As for the OP....I feel sad for your ds. But I think your positive attitude will help her get over any Christmas jealousy. I grew up in a community that was over 50% Jewish (NJ) and I still remember a lot of my friends being jealous. I think that you can talk about the great things about Hanukkah and focus on your family traditions, foods, decorations, etc.. I think with time she will appreciate her own celebrations.

I remember a lot of my friends had specific things about Christmas that they really liked, singing carols, hanging lights, helping decorate the tree, etc. and that's ok too, you know? No harm in enjoying the madness if it makes her happy. I used to have two friends, both Jews, who helped decorate the tree with us each year and I went to their Seders and wished I had a menorah like they did. And for goodness sake, a bat mitzvah!! Remind your daughter that she will get to have an awesome party and all her friends will be jealous! I hope my son is able to have friends of different cultures and religions when he is old enough to appreciate it.

And for the record, I can sing the three blessings for the Hanukkah candles in Hebrew. I have no idea what they mean, but I remember them! I can make a mean kugel too. Maybe I should have been born Jewish. But I digress, I hope your dd feels better and has a wonderful Hanukkah!!

tina


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I'm not Jewish, I'm Pagan, but I've given a lot of thought to how to handle this time of year. It's especially difficult because our extended family are Christians. Yule runs from sunset the night before the solstice to dawn New Year's in my tradition, so the plan is presently for gifts to be opened on each day. If we're invited to spend particular days w/ a set of relatives, we'll open gifts from them and give gifts to them on those days. I'm going to teach them that Santa is Father Thunar in disguise, so that he could keep delivering gifts to the Christian children after the conversion. He'll bring gifts to them on the morning of the solstice, and in stressing the concept of a gift for a gift I'll teach them that the gods expect them to make offerings and give to those less fortunate, and that gifts should be exchanged if possible, not merely recieved, so that it's not all about recieving and what they're getting out of it.

As they get old enough to understand, I'll explain the different holidays this time of year, and what they mean to people who practice different religions. I have one friend who's children are Jewish, I'm looking forward to learning more about their traditions myself. I periodically get the urge to learn about a different religion, that particular one hasn't come up yet. Hmmm.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks for clearing that up for me, about Israel.


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## normajean (Oct 21, 2003)

I had a wake up call on this issue a few years back when I started teaching flute lessons. Growing up, in a small town Christian community, my Lutheran flute tteacher always had a Christmas Recital. I am LDS and have always celebrated Christmas. Anyhow I loved her Christmas recitals and its been somethitng I have always wanted to do. Anyhow I was talking to a parent and mentioned to her my plans to start choosing Christmas music for the recital and asked if she thought her daughter (age 15) would like to participate. The mom said, "I think she would rather not."

I didn't find out until later that they were Jewish and then felt like a complete and utter moron because not only had they recently moved to our area from a part of the country that is much more diverse religiously, but they had a VERY Jewish last name and some VERY Jewish features. Not to say that a name or a nose means your are Jewish, but in their case, they were VERY much so by religion, race, culture, you name it they were like the stereotypical Jewish family. When I realized this I'm here wanting to POUND my head against the wall for being such an idiot, and I was also grateful that at least the conversation had occured with my student's mother and not my student. Anyhow I learned to not assume ANYTHING with ANYONE.

(As a side note, I was very surprised to receive a Christmas gift that year from this student. She had gone to visit family in another state, but her mom dropped it by and said "She really wanted to get you something for Christmas this year" I thought that was thoughtful, though unneccesary for sure.)

So now, I have a "Holiday Recital" and participation is optional, and its a very casual recital. The kids can play whatever they choose whether Christian, Contemporary, Hanukah music or whatever. The recital itself is optional and I have my big recitals in the spring now.

We just moved back to a small town, (I honestly don't think we even have a synogogue here at all its so small) and predominately Christian. Still, I always ask my students parents "Do you celebrate Christmas?" on the information sheet so I don't send someone a Christmas Card or give them a Christmas gift and cause offense or bad feelings. So here, all my students families DO celebrate Christmas and I kindof got some funny looks when I asked the parents if they celebrate Christmas, like "Doesn't everyone?"

So I don't know what advice to offer, but I know that this thread is a reminder for me to never assume.

I really really feel for the Jehovahs Witness children who have no holidays to celebrate during a time when we are having Christmas, Hanukah, Solstice, Kwanzaa etc. I realize they have doctrinal reasons why, but it still has to be hard when you are 7 years old and see all these huge celebrations that you don't participate in. And of course I agree with the poster who mentioned that some children's families cannot afford Christmas tree or gifts at all.

I have resorted to saying "Happy Holidays" to acquantances rather than "Merry Christmas" unless I know which holiday they celebrate and then I try to acknowledge that one.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Quote:

So now What do jelly donuts have to do with Chanuka? I'm very curious
Hanukah is the celebration of a miracle where a drop of oil stayed lit for 8 days. Therefore, in tradition, foods are generally oil based foods. Latkes (potato pancakes) and jelly doughnuts are two of the big traditional things.

Now, back on topic, I worry about this too. We are raising our daughter Jewish and she has gotten a few "be good for Santa" from strangers (she's 17 months old for goodness sakes)
and I try to just ignore that.

Hanukah IS a minor holiday. Some groups are trying to push it to be a bigger holiday just because it falls close to Christmas. Sorry, Passover and Sukkot are far more important than Hanukah, but most people are ignorant of these celebrations.

Sorry this turned so politcal. I really really really wanted to know how to handle the jealousy that I expect my child to feel when she is older.


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## ShannonCC (Apr 11, 2002)

Thanks Foobar. Would you believe I just never realized (until this thread) that donuts are FRIED :LOL I know what Chanukah is about, I just didn't make the connection for that reason. A great chef I will never be, huh?


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Personally, I think the retelling of the story while eating jelly donuts is the best part of the holiday... (in homer simpson voice...mmmm jelly donuts.....)


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Shannon, go to a Krispy Kreme sometime, and you can watch them make the donuts. Yum.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Yep, Shannon, I kind of knew but never thought about it, until I was scarfing down doughnuts one day and saw on the box that EACH ONE has more fat and calories than two candy bars...









I know Hanukkah is a minor holiday, but I am playing it up a lot for DD's sake. We are not very religious, not at all really, so a lot of the other holidays that have fun aspects (Sukkot, Purim) are not celebrated in our house.

I put up some decorations, wrapped the gifts and displayed them in our living room, and so on. She's so excited, she forgot all about her Santa envy!!!









Thanks for all your replies and thoughts!!!


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I am so glad that you got something from this discussion that is helping your dd


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## Mama Lori (Mar 11, 2002)

LunaMom,

OK. Thank you. I'm not the only one.

Hilarious story about my brother when he was in kindergarten. He knew nothing about this "Santa" thing, and all the kids at school were telling him about it, explaining that this man in a red suit was going to come down his chimney at night. My brother was terrrified. He came home that day crying to my mom, scared about this man coming down the chimney, and (my brother, the inventor) started trying to devise ways to block the chimney. I don't know how my mom handled it, I think she used the "Santa only visits the homes of children who celebrate Christmas."

As children we never felt like we were missing out on anything by not celebrating Christmas. We just knew that was a religious holiday and it was not our religion. Now, married to a Christian, I enjoy honoring his faith (and in fact I consider myself a multi faith person at this point, honoring many religions) and I do enjoy celebrating Christmas, but I also think it is wrong for strangers to quiz your children on what kind of loot they're going to get - regardless of what the holiday is.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by LunaMom_
*
I know Hanukkah is a minor holiday, but I am playing it up a lot for DD's sake. We are not very religious, not at all really, so a lot of the other holidays that have fun aspects (Sukkot, Purim) are not celebrated in our house.
*
This is off topic, but you know, you don't have to be religious to have fun on Sukkot or Purim. You can be totally secular and still be included in the having fun part. If you want to.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Luna Mom-

I am glad you found a solution!

We've had some present sitting out for a week now (all from the mail) and Goo hasn't noticed. So nice to be young.

We are planning to do more holidays as Goo gets older. We didn't do a sukka this year, but did go to the Sokkot Shabbot and showed Goo the Temple's Sukka.

I agree, purim isn't a terribly religious holiday IMHO. It is a fun one and a great story to pass on!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Today in Fred Meyer store:

ME: Excuse me, do you have anything for Channukah?

Store Guy: Ummm.... What do you mean by Channukah?








:

We actually found some Channukah plates and napkins and I bought way too many.


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## LiamnEmma (Nov 20, 2001)

I hope this isn't bad... My absolute _*favorite*_ holiday songs are the Adam Sandler Channukah songs. I _*love*_ them, and every single time he says, "OJ Simpson...Not A Jew..." I crack up. I'm always sad when they stop playing it.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I think those songs are pretty funny too. I just wish they'd been around when I was a little kid. :LOL


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## julie128 (Jan 9, 2003)

Stranger on street to me: "Merry Christmas!"
Me: "Thanks! Happy Chanukah!"
Stranger with a surprised look: "Happy Chanukah!"
I figured that if she was going to assume I was Christian, I was going to assume she was Jewish.

As a kid, I never wanted a Christmas tree. I think it's weird when people think all Jewish kids must be jealous of Xmas trees.

There's a Jewish mama thread under Finding Your Tribe, if anyone who hasn't seen it is interested.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Happy Hanukkah to all you Jewish mamas from a neo-pagan gnostic mystic with Eastern overtones!!!

I grew up on LI where there was a menorah in many windows this time of year. We sang not one but 2 Jewish songs at elementary school holiday concerts.

Here is one:

Hanukkah

Oh Hanukkah, oh Hanukkah, come light the Menorah,
Let's have a party, we'll all dance the hora.
Gather round the table, we'll give you a treat.
Sevivon to play with, Latkes to eat.
And while we are playing,
The candles are burning low.
One for each night, they shed a sweet light,
To remind us of days long ago;
One for each night, they shed a sweet light,
To remind us of days long ago...

Here is one we did not sing but it sounds fun!

Dreidel, Spin, Spin, Spin
Dreidel, spin, spin, spin!
Chanukah is a good holiday;
Chanukah is a good holiday -
Dreidel, spin, spin, spin!

It's a happy holiday for the people;
A great miracle happened there;
A great miracle happened there -
It's a happy holiday for the people

here is one that sound smore serious:

Who Can Retell
Who can retell,
the things that befell us,
Who can count them?
In every age a hero or sage,
Came to our aid.

Hark! In days of yore in
Israel's ancient land,
Brave Maccabeus led the
faithful band.
But now all Israel must as one arise,
Redeem itself through deed and sacrifice.

Who can retell,
the things that befell us,
Who can count them?
In every age a hero or sage,
Came to our aid.

Last night after doing some "xmas" shopping, my dh and 2 of our younguns drove around some neighborhoods looking at solstice lights. Did not see one menorah and felt sad. We are in north eastern MA.

Right now I am getting ready to go to my UU "church" to participate in a completely pagan solstice celebration my dh is helping to put on! Very excited. I have led home celebrations the last few years, and it feels great to be "forcing" a whole church full of open minded liberals to cast a circle and honor the elements and directions and welcome the return of the sun. I am proud of my shy dh too! Let's hear it for proud minorities making a difference and opening a few minds!

Happy Holidays (hollydays I call it).


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:

_*... by Foobar*
... I agree, purim isn't a terribly religious holiday IMHO. It is a fun one and a great story to pass on!_

Entirely and completely







T

Am sure that as Purim comes closer there'll be a thread in Sprituality on it, but while the fun is universal and even the most secular enjoy it, it is an incredibly religious day. Kabbalistic connections abound ...

As a matter of fact, Yom Kippur is also known as Yom Kippurim. Which many read as Yom K'Purim ... translated directly as A Day Like Purim ...










A likhtege (light-filled) Chanuka to everybody in the whole world ...


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaryLLL_
*
Oh Hanukkah, oh Hanukkah, come light the Menorah,
Let's have a party, we'll all dance the hora.
Gather round the table, we'll give you a treat.
Sevivon to play with, Latkes to eat.
And while we are playing,
The candles are burning low.
One for each night, they shed a sweet light,
To remind us of days long ago;
One for each night, they shed a sweet light,
To remind us of days long ago...

*
We actually sang this in English and in Hebrew when I was a kid.







Wow, seems like a long time ago! And just yesterday, I heard it in Hebrew for the first time in, oh, 15+ years. :LOL I'm feeling so old right now!

About Purim: When I was a kid, I was told that Jewish children used to get all their presents on Purim, but that Christian kids would get jealous because Purim happens in the spring so they moved the gift-giving season to Channukah so that all the kids got their presents around the same time of year. We still got money on Purim, though :LOL.


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## padomi (Dec 28, 2002)

I know...people keep asking my 17 mo dd if she's excited about Santa. I just say "She doesn't know who Santa is!"

When a (Jewish) friend of mine's mother got tired of the whole issue, she invented "Hannukah Man" who brought my friend presents. He looked a lot like Santa, but brought presents to little Jewish children. :LOL


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## mamacate (Mar 29, 2003)

I've been reading this thread--interesting! I'm a neo-pagan UU too (hi DaryLLL!), and I am very much not impressed with the cultural hegemony of Christmas. Frankly, I do think it's rude to wish someone a happy Christmas when you don't know their religion! (Tangentially, my friend was wished "happy easter" by a grocery clerk who had just checked out a cart full of matzo and gefilte fish, when she was shopping for her upcoming seder a couple of years back--ARGH!) If 89% of americans celebrate Xmas (where did this stat come from?), then if you wish 10 people a merry christmas, you'll be wrong at least once. Happy holidays is so much nicer, IMO.

Anyway, I ran across this article on salon.com, thought you guys might appreciate it.

Merry whatever to all, and blessings as the light returns...

Cate

~~~~~
_Cate - had to edit due to copyright concerns but here is a link to the article which I really enjoyed!

~ pamelamama_


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