# Two therapists told me there are "red flags of abuse"...tell me what you think.



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm asking this community because most of you are fair, you don't jump to conclusions of wrong doing. I'm physically shaking and reaching out for opinions. I posted on an "S.A. message board" and i posted on a mainstream "mommy" board and everyone told me that they would be concerned. I spoke to 2 therapists and they said they are concerned and advised that I discontinue my daughter to visit with her dad. Give me YOUR opinion and insight. I'm at a loss of what to think.

**Edited to add: Daughter's age is 4.5**

One week ago (Sunday 8th), my daughter told me that she was alone with her teenage brothers and they pulled her pants down. She said she hid in the closet until her dad arrived. Her dad denies this ever happened. (He's a pathological liar and I believe my daughter long before him). Our (non legal) visitation agreement was that she NOT be left alone with her teenage brothers--only him or his mother should be her caretaker.

Monday, Daughter had a doctor appointment to discuss her bad behavior lately and to get a referral to a therapist. I told the doctor about all of daughter's bad behavior and weird "quirks" she's developed and I told her about the "lies" daughter has been telling--about the brothers pulling her pants down and some other things...

Doctor picked up on the "lies" about brothers and seemed concerned. She asked us (Daughter's dad was present at doctor), "what has changed lately to cause the bad behavior? Something had to have triggered this. Someone move? Die? What's new?" Her dad and I shrugged our shoulders and said we couldn't think of anything new. The doctor inquired about the brothers and how often they were alone with her and why they pulled her pants down. Daughter's dad said she's lying. I think the doctor was "onto" something.

Around Christmas, Daughter started digitally penetrating herself in the tub. I privately talked to her and told her, "Honey, I noticed what you were doing [she immediately stopped] and it's okay. It's perfectly okay that you're doing that but you shouldn't do that in front of mommy and daddy." I thought it was normal but the therapists this week said it's "rare" for her age group to penetrate. They said that rubbing and external stimulation IS normal...but not internal.

Both therapists said with Daughter's "bath time behavior" coupled with her bad behavior, lies, and weird quirks that there are red flags going up. They advised me not to allow her to her dad's until she's been thru therapy and we figure out what's going on. I told the therapists the time line of occurances: (This is so long, I"m sorry).

Jan 1, 2011: Daughter started her first over night visit with her dad and has progressed throughout the year.

March 25 '11: I picked up daughter after her dad had her for 4 days. We were in the ER that night. Daughter was screaming in pain (blood curdling screams) with her FIRST UTI. I didn't think much of this...I just thought she was dirty from not being bathed. She was stinky between her legs and there was visible crud. I let her soak in a bath, hoping to help (but later the pain grew to be severe).

Middle of June 2011: Her behavior shifted from good kid to defiant kid. People told me, "Welcome to age 4. Have fun!" I didn't think much of it.

July 2011: Daughter started clearing her throat. A lot. Drove me crazy. Cleared her throat all. the. time. We thought it was an annoying habit she picked up.

August 2011: We took her to the doctor for clearing her throat. We thought she may have an allergy or something that wasn't going away. Doctor diagnosed her with having a "nervous tic". She advised us to ignore the tic and it would go away. We ignored and it did go away, but has surfaced here-and-there.

October/November 2011: Daughter started refusing to wear jeans that I had just bought. I had JUST bought them. She wore them a couple times. But then decided they were "too tight". She tugged at the crotch area, saying they were too tight in the crotch area. She cried and begged me not to make her wear them. I got rid of the jeans and she wore comfy sweats.

November 2011: The (baggy) sweats that were once okay were "too tight". The only thing she would wear were some soft fleece pants/shirts. Extra big. She started refusing to wear underwear. Even the the underwear was big, she tugged at the crotch area and said they were too tight. We did research and found something called "sensory processing disorder". We didn't think we needed to involve the doctor at this point.

December 2011: The fleece clothes began to feel too tight. Stuff she wore last week, were all of a sudden tight. She started trying on 4 outfits (of the exact same clothes) before she found something that wasn't tight.

She started the penetration in the tub. At this point, I still hadn't thought anything was "wrong", other than my daughter is "different"...with all her quirks and behavior.

After Christmas: She told me that she cries at her dad's house and he won't let her call me. I bought her a cell phone. Last Tuesday she called me at midnight. Her dad was watching "The Untouchables" (a very graphic movie not intended for a 4 year old). I read her a story over the phone while her dad refused to turn the movie off (she asked him if they could watch something else). She hung up. She called me at 1AM and said her dad was asleep and she was scared. She ended up falling asleep while on the phone with me. Before she fell asleep, she cried and said, "I wish I could come to your job and see you..."

I didn't think "something" was up until my daughter told me her brothers pulled her pants down. She told me of a couple more (specific) incidents when she was alone with them too.

A couple nights ago, she was telling me a "secret" about being alone with her brothers. While she was telling me, she was dragging her finger on my legs. She then dragged her finger over my private area, twice. I asked her, "Why are you touching my private area? We're not supposed to touch people there." She said "I don't know." WHY would she do that while telling me about her brothers? She has NEVER touched me there. Why would she do that at all? Maybe it's normal.

My head is spinning. I don't know what to think. I have stopped visits at her dad's house. He is furious. I would be doing my daughter an injustice if I didn't listen to the advice of 2 professionals. What would you think of all of this? I'm shaking and my stomach is in knots. I'm just at a loss. Would you be concerned? If not, WHY not?


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## Aliyahsmommy (Sep 9, 2008)

I truthfully would be concerned. I'm not necessarily concerned that she is being sexually harmed, though I wouldn't rule that out and would seek a specialist to look over that area and see if there is any trauma. I'm more concerned with what seems to be a lack of supervision when she is with her father and a lack of proper parenting. A 4 year old should be tucked safely in bed at midnight and have no idea what her father is watching. A 4 year old whom is away from her mother should never be denied a phone call and need a cell phone in order to solve that problem. I definitely would discontinue visits and seek therapy for your daughter. Or I would allow visitations for short periods in public places with the teenage brothers not present. It is hard to say what is normal or not. The clothing issue could be sensory precessing disorder (my daughter has it), but i would have thought there would have been signs of it before age 4 and that is why I am questioning it. The nervous tic seems most likely to be cause by some sort of internal stress. I'm all over the place in my response, but in short look for therapist that deals with sexual abuse and make sure your daughter is safe at all times even if that means limited visitation with dad and none with brothers until this is all figured out.


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## Shaki (Mar 15, 2006)

Yes I would absolutely be concerned. I would immediately discontinue visitation and seek both legal and medical/emotional help. Best of luck to you. Listen to your DD take your own feelings and her feelings seriously,


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

It's possible that she's lying, and it's possible that all these 'red flags' could have completely unrelated causes. But if she _is_ being abused and you didn't believe her & continued to put her in that situation, the harm will be even greater, she won't bother telling anyone if/when things get worse, and the pain will be that much greater because mama knew and did nothing (in her eyes). I would take her word & not have her visit her dad's until things are sorted out. Maybe you can arrange supervised visitation if you are concerned about her not seeing her father for a length of time (and are certain he's not directly involved in the abuse, of course). I would also question her dad's judgement in allowing a 4yo to watch a graphic movie -- particularly because she was clearly scared & not enjoying it -- and allowing teens to be alone with her if you'd previously agreed not to... I'm assuming there was some reason for that agreement? Why did you guys choose to not allow her brothers to be alone with her in the first place?

Surely some of these things can be explained away, sensory issues aren't uncommon, maybe she's growing quickly... My own DS had a tic for a while & he hasn't be abused. I don't think many of those things in isolation would be 'red flags' to me, but together they are, and the fact that she has outright stated some things is the biggest flag of all & should lead to the most cautious approach IMO.

One thing I've always heard is to avoid questioning her yourself in case you inadvertently 'lead' her answers in one direction or the other. Let the professionals question her & try to sort things out...


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

The tight clothing, eh, I now a little girl who at about age 4 started this same kind of thing, and there is absolutely no possibility this child was being abused in any way. Also, I have notice over years of being around friends children that 4 yo girls tend to be horrid (sorry, just my opinion). That being said, everything else in your post is VERY concerning and I think stopping visitation and persuing therapy and possible legal action (certainly in to establish safe visitation, if such is possible) is what your daughter needs.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Holy smokes! With those kind of red flags I would never allow unsupervised visits with him again.

How do you know they are "lies" and not the truth? I'd be real concerned about someone insisting my child is lying.

Your therapists are correct, you need to work with them and heed their advice. Man I'd be steaming mad and pressing charges by now if it were me.

... crying at dad's house? not being allowed to call home? dad refusing to turn off graphic / inappropriate movie at your request at midnight ??  That alone would be enough for me to cut the ties. The other stuff would have me calling the cops. Thank God it sounds like you have decent therapists.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

so what is the legal situation with your dd's father? is there anything written legally? parenting plan? or custody?

which state are you in?

what are you doing legally now that you have stopped the visits.

do you have anything on paper - from ER visit or anything else that shows perhaps abuse.

do you have support to get you through this. emotional support?

do you have $$$s?

you will need to get yourself a good lawyer. the best you can buy who has dealt with child abuse cases AND parent alientation syndrome (esp. if you live in a state where that is rampant). there are far too many parents who lose their child to their abuser. esp. if he is super smart.

if your dd is going to therapy check with the therapists credentials. make sure he or she is one of the best known and well respected in the field. if not find out that is so.

the ball is in your court now. you have to get proactive now and get yourself a plan going.

i am sorry if i sound like gloom and doom. but keeping your dd away from her father without any legal action to back it up means nothing. your dd is still not safe. it just might be a temporary situation. you have to realise you are calling his son a child molester and might be 'ruining' his reputation for the rest of his life. his dad is not going to take this lightly - so you have to be really prepared.

if it turns out it is NOT sexual abuse, i am sure it is still big and i hope you can find the answers to help your little girl.

please make sure you yourself have support to help you through this time. you will need it.


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## yellow73 (Oct 17, 2011)

I would absolutely stop visits, and I am surprised that the therapists have not suggest a forensic interview. When I worked as a Child Protective Services worker, anytime we had a suspision of sexual abuse (which includes inappropriate contact with an adult or older child, them exposing themselves or forcing her to expose herself, etc. It's still sexual abuse even if they didn't actually get to the point of molestation.) A forensic interview is set up with trained professionals who work with kids and the interview is video taped in case it is needed in a court case. If you suspect something happened always ask open ended question, such as "what happened then?" etc. Don't give suggestions as to what happened, as then a child can become confused and it's harder to figure out what actually happened.

I am so sorry that you are going through this, it is incredibly stressful for the parent and child. Always err on the side of protecting your child.

Best of luck to you.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you everyone. I will try to respond to all questions.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> so what is the legal situation with your dd's father? is there anything written legally? parenting plan? or custody?
> 
> ...


We live in Illinois.

He hasn't even signed her birth certificate. In the eyes of the law, he has no legal rights. I carry a certified copy of her birth cert. in my wallet for proof, if he'd ever take her without my consent he would be arrested. So, I have the right to discontinue visits right now, according to the law. I told him, that in Daughter's best interest, I think she needs a break from her house (due to her behavior). Daughter called him today and he said he was getting ready to come get her. I started shaking. I text him and told him not to come to my house and cause a scene. I was prepared to call 911 if he showed up. He had words with me on the phone...accused me of being crazy, withholding his daughter from him, etc. (He's an emotional abuser). I remained calm and told him Daughter needed a break from his house. (He does NOT know that I spoke to therapists. He does NOT know what we're suspecting. He ONLY knows about Daughter's extreme behavior and that her doctor referred us to a therapist. Daughter has not seen therapist yet).

Everything medically is documented. I called daughters old pediatrician to ask them if they documened a specific incident (they didn't...I had called about daughter bleeding from the rectum. Back then, they told me it was probly a hemoroid. Back then, I didn't think anything was going on). The receptionist told me, the last 3 times you were here (in 2010), you were here for "discoloration in the pubic area, a bruise on her inner thigh, and her having potty accidents." As she told me that, my heart sank. Back then, I didn't suspect anything. Nothing. I didn't suspect anything until this Sunday when daughter told me she was alone with brothers and they pulled her pants down. Other things have slowly surfaced and I'm really concerned. The doctor, back then, diagnosed daughters "discoloration" as "something", I can't remember. It looked like a caulus..like she was riding her wooden rocking horse or something. We couldn't figure out what it was from. It's since gone, no discoloration anymore.

The ER visit with UTI is documented. But the doctor did not physically examine her. There may be proof that she was with her dad for 4 days before that occuring, I'll have to dig.

I have access to money. I have a grandma who will spend her life savings protecting our baby. I'm on the phone with her right now and she's assuring me we will hire the best lawyer if need be. She is also my emotional support. She is keeping Daughter.

I will check on the credibility of her therapist. I mentioned the name to MY therapist and she said she was good...but I will check into it, thank you.

The past 3 nights, daughter has been "accidently" touching my private area while we're laying in bed having pillow talk (we co-sleep and wrestle/play in bed before turning the lights off). Friday night she stood up and told me, "Hey! Did you know that if you do this [and she rubbed her private outside of her clothes] that it tickles?" I said, "Oh yea? Well that's cool (not knowing what else to say)". She insisted that I try it. I told her I didn't want to. She lifted up my hand and made me touch myself and said, "See? It tickles!" Subject was changed.

Later when she put her pull up on, she wanted me to "press the pull-up". She was naked, legs apart with the pull-up just setting in front of her crotch. I asked her why, told her I didn't want to. She said it's fun, just press. She took my hand and put it on her pull up. She mumbled something about "press the pull-up game..."

Last night, I asked her if she had any secrets. She said "Yeah! I do!" She told me the story of waking her brother up when her dad was at the store (the exact story she told me before). While she was telling me, she dragged her finger on my legs and over my private area, twice. I asked her, "Why did you touch my private area?" She replied, "I don't know". Let me just say that we have an open communication. I answer any questions she has about her body, I've never shamed her body. However, she has NEVER...and I mean NEVER...touched my private area like that. Ever. And why would she touch me there while telling me the story she was telling me? I don't know what is going on...but some weird stuff IS going on.

I have everything on audio record. All of our bedtime talks are recorded. It's obvious that I'm NOT coaching her. She tells me things on her own free will. And I have proof, if he or anyone else says I'm trying to coach her. I started recording Daughter a month or two ago, as she started telling me "lies" and what not. I just wanted to have proof and not forget what she told me.

I saw Daughter inserting toys in herself in the tub yesterday. That, I've been told, is not normal at all for her age.

I just don't know what to think. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I don't want this to be true. But right now, I don't *know* and my loyalty belongs to my daughter and I have to protect her.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I tend to think (as a survivor of sexual abuse myself, for what it's worth) that the pendulum has tilted a little too far and that we, as a society are hyper-aware of red flags, to the point that we're seeing them where they don't exist.

There are red flags all over the place here. The fact that he simply said, "she's lying" about her brothers, when it's already obvious that he doens't look after her properly...the thing with the movie (I see no excuse for making a child watch such a thing...especially when the child has requested that it be turned off)...the lack of hygiene (I have four children, and have never had one of them with genitals icky sounding as you describe your daughters after the one visit)...the self-penetration...the touching your private area while talking about her brothers. This is a mess.

I'd absolutely stop the visits, take your daughter to a therapist, and consult a lawyer to ensure that he can't wedge himself back into the situation.


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## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

This may open a can of worms you can't escape from, but consider a call to Child Protective Services. The problem with calling them is that it can always be turned around on you that you were just trying to victimize dad with false accusations. A bulldog lawyer sound totally necessary. Do not go with a nice lawyer, go with someone with a successful reputation. It also sounds like, at some point, your daughter might need a pelvic exam. I don't know if that's appropriate or not for a 4 year old (and talk about traumatic,) but it's something you should ask about.

I would stop asking her "Why did you touch my privates?" If you are audio recording and you want documentation, a simple, "Please don't touch my privates," is enough. Constantly asking her "why" could be considered leading AND she doesn't know why she's doing it so I'd say it's more harmful than helpful to her.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

The only thing about your story that strikes me as "normal" is the preference for soft, loose clothing. Everything else raises red flags for me too.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't have much time to respond. I will tomorrow.

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you.

I'm a SA survivor, too, and i worry if I'm being oversensitive. I've rationalized all behavior, the UTI, etc. I've refrained from jumping to conclusions. But the lies about her brothers pulling her pants down was the first time I heard an "alarm" so to speak. Thinking over the occurances over the last year, they're all falling into place. Each occurance, alone, is nothing. But together it really worries me. Maybe each occurance is an unfortunate coincidence. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's something. I just don't know 

I am still scared and worried. But your responses have made me feel better about my decision to not allow her at his house for awhile.

He told me today that his grandma is dying. "Today may be the last time Daughter can see my grandma before she dies. I hope you feel happy with yourself..." I didn't. I felt sick. I felt terrible. But I have to protect my daughter.

More tomorrow. Thank you all so much.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Keep her away. Even if you are wrong, she needs to know you will protect her. As far as his grandma, sorry it's happening, but your child's safety is most important and she needs to stay away from them until this is figured out at the very least. And while I hope it is nothing, it all together sounds like too much to be a pure coincidence. I have a little girl who just turned 5...she barely knows what a 'private part' is. I mean, yes, I've told her what the parts of her body are called, but other than that and a couple mentions in her life that it itches, it's just not something that comes up in conversations. The "pat the pull up" game would concern me too, that sounds like something she has learned, and it would worry me.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

It doesn't mean you can't do some supervised visits with her dad, or even go see grandma with her.

Just tell him, that until you have checked with some doctors, you aren't letting him be alone with her, but, hopefully it will all be resolved soon.

If he's smart, he would be very afraid right now.


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## rush2ady (Nov 16, 2010)

Thank goodness you are taking this seriously. Keep your daughter away from her dad and older brothers, don't trust them alone with her. Ever. Do have her medically examined to specifically look for abuse and make sure she has the support and therapy she needs.

So sorry you and your daughter are going through this. Please do listen to her, don't dismiss these things. I've taken care of many children over the years, and in my opinion her behaviors point very strongly to abuse.

I'm also a SA survivor, and I still remember the few times that I tried to clue my parents in, they dismissed it. I lost my trust in their ability to understand and protect me, and suffered the abuse for years, because they could not handle the truth of the situation. I'm not saying you are like this, but do listen to your instincts to protect your daughter, and don't dismiss the signs. Hopefully they are merely suspicions and nothing wrong is going on, but you have to in every way behave as though it's possible and do what you can to protect her.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Even if there isn't any sexual abuse, it sounds like her dad is a real jerk. If you're not legally required to send her to him, definitely don't.


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## minkin03 (May 28, 2009)

I see red flags too and I agree you should get CPS involved. And I wouldn't let him have unsupervised visitation until the case is investigated and resolved.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

I would see if you can find out what hospital Grandma is at and take DD to go see her yourself (as long as there's no chance SHE is involved in any abuse, that is).

I would also second (third? fifth?) the lawyer recommendations, even if legally you aren't obligated to allow visitation, it seems like a tricky situation and a lawyer definitely needs to be involved.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Yes I would be very concerned. Huge red flags. Good luck and much love to you and your dd.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I would absolutely take this seriously (and it sounds like you are) there is nothing worse for a child to be crying for help outwardly and having it be dismissed.

I think her telling you they pulled down her pants and her physically touching you while talking about them is extremely brave of her and absolutely should be taken at face value. It is SO hard for anyone, especially a child to verbally express what happened and who knows what her brothers told her would happen if she told....

Also agree that your talking about it and asking questions could be "leading" and that you should have her evaluated immediately.


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## earthgirl (Feb 6, 2006)

Just another voice to say I agree that you should take it seriously. All of the things you describe may not be related to anything at all, but I would definitely err on the side of caution. I would personally have reservations about directly involving CPS, they are likely to get involved anyway if it turns out therapists and doctors think she is being abused. I would just try to get her into therapy and definitely keep her away from her dad right now. I'm so sorry that you have to go through this and I hope things turn out for the best.


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## Snapdragon (Aug 30, 2007)

that poor little girl- oh my goodness- those are beyond clear signs- those are crystal clear signs of sexual abuse. Please absolutely stop any visits with the Dad and brothers- that is just so sad to hear- the whole story just breaks my heart, please protect your daughter- I am sorry if this is harsh- I know you said you yourself are a victim of SA- but please break the cycle for your little girl- that is so scary and sad.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Also if you have any dirty clothes from her dads house keep them dirty b.c they can evaluate them for fluids and things...


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I know this is meant to give advice but this just made me so sick. Yes it's something that she should do, but as a parent it's something you don't want to ever have to do. My head is spinning thinking about this. As an SA survivor... I just wish I was listened to.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Also if you have any dirty clothes from her dads house keep them dirty b.c they can evaluate them for fluids and things...


Good luck mama and fight!


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## 2sweetsparrows (Feb 24, 2011)

I am a Rape Crisis Counselor and have been doing this work for 4 years- I go to court and sit on the stand with little angels who have had very bad things happen to them-

1. I am so very sorry you are having to go through this- you care and trust me that is a LOT more than some mothers out there.

2. I agree with your doctor the penetration is unusual for that age range.

3. Most of what you outlined are red flags. Get CPS involved and see if you can get a PEDI SART or SANE exam- they are called different things in different states- the state should pay for it - insurance can also pay for it. They can have professionals talk with her and exam her. I can seem like a scary process however the doctors are great and really know how to talk with kids. I have seen several cases where the child will disclose to the doctor but not the parent- because they know the parent will be sad.

I hope everything works out- call your local rape crisis center- there are amazing skilled professionals out there who can help you through every step- no matter the outcome


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Your daughter has clearly told you that she has been abused. I'm not sure why you didn't believe her straight away. You are the only one who can protect her. Do not send her back to that house again.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you all so very much for your input. No new updates, nothing happened last night or today.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *newmum35*
> 
> Holy smokes! With those kind of red flags I would never allow unsupervised visits with him again.
> 
> ...


They are "lies" according to him. I believe my daughter. Her dad went with us to the pediatrician's office (to get a referral to a behavior therapist). Her dad was with me. I was afraid to tell the doctor about the "lie" with him present but I had to find a way. I wrote DD's symptoms on paper (1.5 pages). I snuck her "lies" in at the end like this: "Symptom 10.) DD has been telling lies. For example, she lied about being alone with her teenage brothers and they pulled her pants down. Her dad says it never happened...."

The doctor came in the room after reading 1.5 pages of symptoms. The thing she narrowed in on? The first thing she asked? "When did her brothers pull her pants down? Are they alone with her often?". I thought I was going to die, afraid of her dad's reaction. I told the doctor, "She just told me this last night...but it's just a lie and I guess it has to do with her behavior disorder....". *I believe my daughter 100% but I'm playing dumb in front of her dad. * I'm afraid of him.

I'm so relieved that the doctor picked up on that. The doctor said, "What has happened recently to cause the change in behavior? Are there new people? Did someone move or die? Something has triggered her behavior...." We both shook our heads, "no", nothing has changed. I was so relieved to hear the doctor tell us that, but so afraid of her dad fighting with me afterwards. She referred us to a counselor and possibly to a psychiatrist (but I'm NOT going to medicate my daughter).

Also, the doctor asked us, "Does Child tell lies often?" I shrugged my shoulders and shook my head and said, "Not really, I don't think...." I looked over at her dad. He remained silent but grimaced his face and nodded his head, indicating that our daughter is nothing but a liar. (I'm hoping that the doctor noticed his immediate defensiveness and saw the difference in our reactions). He's nothing but a liar and his lies are about to come to an end.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yellow73*
> 
> I would absolutely stop visits, and I am surprised that the therapists have not suggest a forensic interview. When I worked as a Child Protective Services worker, anytime we had a suspision of sexual abuse (which includes inappropriate contact with an adult or older child, them exposing themselves or forcing her to expose herself, etc. It's still sexual abuse even if they didn't actually get to the point of molestation.) A forensic interview is set up with trained professionals who work with kids and the interview is video taped in case it is needed in a court case. If you suspect something happened always ask open ended question, such as "what happened then?" etc. Don't give suggestions as to what happened, as then a child can become confused and it's harder to figure out what actually happened.
> 
> ...


MY S.A. therapist told me that DD's therapist has to get her to "crack" first. Once (if) DD says "the magic words", THEN (and apparently, ONLY then), will her therapist schedule the forensic interview, call CPS, etc.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I tend to think (as a survivor of sexual abuse myself, for what it's worth) that the pendulum has tilted a little too far and that we, as a society are hyper-aware of red flags, to the point that we're seeing them where they don't exist.
> 
> ...


You know, I agree. I've had to calm myself down through the years and tell myself "this is normal"--bleeding from the rectum was a hemmoroid (and it only happend ONE time otherwise I would have freaked), bruising on inner thighs (my first instinct was to freak out...but I remained calm and thought she was riding her wooden horse or something and bruised herself....kids are active, after all), etc....

Never in my wildest nightmare would I have ever thought she was possibly being hurt until she told me her brothers pulled her pants down. It was THEN, that I searched my memory for occurances that have happened over the past year. It's like my therapist said, "If the 'lie' was the ONLY thing, I wouldn't be too concerned. But with everything else over the past year, this is very alarming." Each little thing isn't a big deal, but together it's terrifying.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SundayCrepes*
> 
> This may open a can of worms you can't escape from, but consider a call to Child Protective Services. The problem with calling them is that it can always be turned around on you that you were just trying to victimize dad with false accusations. A bulldog lawyer sound totally necessary. Do not go with a nice lawyer, go with someone with a successful reputation. It also sounds like, at some point, your daughter might need a pelvic exam. I don't know if that's appropriate or not for a 4 year old (and talk about traumatic,) but it's something you should ask about.
> 
> I would stop asking her "Why did you touch my privates?" If you are audio recording and you want documentation, a simple, "Please don't touch my privates," is enough. Constantly asking her "why" could be considered leading AND she doesn't know why she's doing it so I'd say it's more harmful than helpful to her.


I have a friend who works at CPS. I called her Friday and left a message for her to call. I'm going to ask her, off the record, what she recommends I do next.

Thank you about the "why" versus "don't touch". The thing is, a couple nights ago (I believe Thursday, I'd have to look in my records) we were in bed playing, talking, ,etc. She accidentally (really, an accident) laid her hand on my private area while she was leaning on me. I took the opportunity and told her, "Whoops! That's my private area and we shouldn't touch people there." She said, "Oh, I'm sorry." She quickly removed her hand. We talked for a bit. She jumped up and said, "Hey! Did you know that if you do this [and she rubbed herself] that it tickles?" I said, "Oh, yeah? Well that's cool". (I had no idea WHAT to say!) She insisted that I try it. I told her I didn't want to. She lifted up my hand and made me touch myself and said, "See? It tickles!" Subject was changed. That WAS Thursday, I just checked...

Saturday was the night she purposely touched my private area while telling me the story of her brothers. That's why I asked "why" as opposed to "please don't"...because we had just had that conversation. But I will keep reminding her "don't" if it happens again, thank you.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *peaceful_mama*
> 
> Keep her away. Even if you are wrong, she needs to know you will protect her. As far as his grandma, sorry it's happening, but your child's safety is most important and she needs to stay away from them until this is figured out at the very least. And while I hope it is nothing, it all together sounds like too much to be a pure coincidence. I have a little girl who just turned 5...she barely knows what a 'private part' is. I mean, yes, I've told her what the parts of her body are called, but other than that and a couple mentions in her life that it itches, it's just not something that comes up in conversations. The "pat the pull up" game would concern me too, that sounds like something she has learned, and it would worry me.


I feel absolutely sick about his grandma. I feel so terrible and rotten. I thought about offering to TAKE daughter to his grandma's and stay with her while they visit. But I know he'd say "no"...he doesn't want me around his family. Everything at his house/his family is a secret and he keeps me away.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rush2ady*
> 
> Thank goodness you are taking this seriously. Keep your daughter away from her dad and older brothers, don't trust them alone with her. Ever. Do have her medically examined to specifically look for abuse and make sure she has the support and therapy she needs.
> 
> ...


I'm relunctant to get her examined. When I was a small child, the medical "stuff" was the most damaging to me. I remember doctors and nurses holding me down and...it was terrible. I will consent to her being examined, as long as she is NOT held down or forced. But at this point, she hasn't been with her dad since Tuesday night/Wednesday day. Since then, I've seen her digitally penetrate, as well as penetrate with objects. I've read that unless you get an exam immediately after occurance, there is very little proof of any wrong doing.

Also, DD's pediatrician is also his son's doctor. I switched from our old pediatrician to the one he takes his boys to, because he raved about the doctor. So, I worry about how much of a relationship DD's dad has with the doctor. If I call the ped. and tell her what my therapist said...will she disclose that info to him? I will call tomorrow to either find a new doctor or see if DD's old doctor will take her back and let them know what is going on.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Even if there isn't any sexual abuse, it sounds like her dad is a real jerk. If you're not legally required to send her to him, definitely don't.


Right? He is. He's always disrespected everything I've asked for our child. Everything. A good example is, we took DD to the doctor a couple years ago for belly problems/gas. The doctor asked us what she drinks. I replied "milk and water only". I didn't allow juice, sugar, etc...ONLY water and milk. He "agreed with me fully" and promised not to give her anything other than milk and water...

So, the doctor told us that DD must have a milk intolerance and to eliminate dairy for her diet. I did. I got rid of all dairy and put her on soy milk, etc. Her belly problems continued. So then the doctor says, "If elimating the dairy doesn't help the belly we'll have to look at other causes cuch as gluten...." THEN he pipes up and says he's been giving her Sunny D. He stopped the Sunny D...and her belly problems went away. He has a cavemen mentality--he does what he wants, when he wants...and nobody is going to tell him what to do.

I've allowed him to disrespect my parenting "wishes" all these years. If I say I don't want her alone with brothers, he'll say "okay"...and do it anyway. Then accuse daughter of lying. He accuses me of being crazy and daughter of lying. My therapist picked up on this...this is what he does.

The last time she was with him was Tuesday over night (the night she called me at 12 and 1 am)/Wednesday day....

Saturday night I told him via text that Daughter wanted to go to grandma's house Sunday (while I work) and asked him if that was okay (I was trying to be nice by asking him)...

He responded with "No, it's not okay. I want to have Daughter Sunday, over night." (She never stays over night with him on Sunday, I always get her after work).

I told him, " I think Daughter needs a break from all the kids at your house for awhile, until we get her behavior figured out and get her in therapy. She complains often that all the kids irritate her. I just think we should try giving her a break. You're welcome to visit her but I'd rather her not spend time at your house for awhile. This is in her best interest, not trying to tick you off."

He never replied back.

Sunday, Daughter called him (I'm not going to deny communication with him). She asked him what he was doing. I heard him on speaker telling her, "I'm getting ready to come see you." I started shaking. I text my friend and asked what I should do. She said to call county police. I desperately tried calling my grandma to have her and her husband come to my house. Daughter hollered to me, "Mommy, leave the door unlocked because daddy is on his way over." I ended up calling grandma 12 times...but she didn't answer, wasn't home from church. I was scared.

I text him while he was talking to Daughter, "Daughter is going to grandma's house today, as I told you last night. Don't come here and make a scene." He told Daughter, "Where is mommy? Let me talk to her." I got on the phone. He wanted to know why I was punishing him, keeping Daughter from me. I repeated what I told him via text, that I thought Daughter needed a break from his house until we get her in therapy and get her behavior figured out. I told him that the kids at his house irritate Daughter and I wanted to give her a break and see if it helps.

He played dumb and said, "What kids? What does she need a break from?" I told him that Daughter comes home angry and irritated over her brothers and the cousin that live with him. He told me I was using Daughter as a pawn, that I must be mad at him and that's why I'm not allowing her over. He said his grandma might be dying and said he wanted her to see Daughter before she dies (I'm really sorry and hate that all of this has surfaced now...but I have to do what's best for my daughter







)

He went on to tell me, "I think you're jealous. You're jealous that Daughter gives you problems and she doesn't give me any problems. I never have any problems with her! I think she needs a break from YOU!" (It's true. He claims to never have any problems from her. I guess she's eager to get dressed and leave his house to see mommy).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I would absolutely take this seriously (and it sounds like you are) there is nothing worse for a child to be crying for help outwardly and having it be dismissed.
> 
> ...


I am taking this seriously. I'm afraid that it IS true. But I'm also afraid that it's NOT true. I'm afraid of hurting someone's feelings or accusing/assuming that something is going on...and it turn out to NOT be true. But there is no fear greater than letting my daughter down. My loyalty belongs to her. I am her hero...and forever will be.

I'm not sure what to ask/not ask. For the most part, she willingly tells me things. Like, "I was alone with brothers and they pulled my pants down." That's all she told me. Nothing more. I wanted to know more. So I asked, "What did daddy say?" and so on.

Her first therapy appointment isn't until the 24th (unless there's a cancellation and we get appt this week). I try not to ask (what I think are) leading questions. I don't say bad things about her dad, I use a positive tone of voice when she mentions her dad. Last night in the car she told me that her oldest brother was bossing her around. She told him, "You're not the boss of me." She said he turned around, looked at her mean and said something 'ugly'. I asked her what he said but she didn't remember. I said, in a nice tone, "Those brothers sure can be stinkers sometimes, huh?" But I don't know what to say. A mother should never have to think about what to say/ask their child over the possibility of abuse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Snapdragon*
> 
> that poor little girl- oh my goodness- those are beyond clear signs- those are crystal clear signs of sexual abuse. Please absolutely stop any visits with the Dad and brothers- that is just so sad to hear- the whole story just breaks my heart, please protect your daughter- I am sorry if this is harsh- I know you said you yourself are a victim of SA- but please break the cycle for your little girl- that is so scary and sad.


I can't stress enough--visits HAVE stopped. It was so hard to stand up to her dad but I did. I will believe and protect my daughter until the day I die.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Why are you scared of her father? Has he been abusive towards you? It's time to call CPS, really.


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> I know this is meant to give advice but this just made me so sick. Yes it's something that she should do, but as a parent it's something you don't want to ever have to do. My head is spinning thinking about this. As an SA survivor... I just wish I was listened to.
> 
> Good luck mama and fight!


I know it made me sick writing it but it's true and the reality is that a lot of times these sickos get away with it even if the girl does confess...I was rape victim, my mom was an SA survivor (by her dad for almost 18 years b/c no one did anything) I realize how hard this is trust me I lost my mother to suicide when I was a kid over it...it destroyed her life...


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

sosurreal -







i am so sorry for your mom and your own pain.

great mama. you have been v. proactive. glad you have some support and so glad you have access to funds.

now you say its the son you suspect right? not her father right?

with him not being on anything legal i am not sure what the legalities of that are - unless he files paternity and then everything changes.

the way i see it is that you may have to press charges against the son. i dont know how else this legally will progress.

yes at this point her father cant do anything. but he can get a paternity testing, and if he too has kept his records he could show the amount of time your dd has spent with him.

it is one thing to accuse him. but its a whole different story to accuse his son. i am sure he himself is having a hard time with this. his one child harming another child. and the whole implication of that, worse than killing someone.

let the doctors and therapists decide what happened. let them decide about SA. its not for you or the court to decide. so its good that you are going forward with this.

if you dont suspect the father then at least i would allow supervised visits. i would go with your dd to the hospital to visit the dying grandma.


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Your daughter has clearly told you that she has been abused. I'm not sure why you didn't believe her straight away. You are the only one who can protect her. Do not send her back to that house again.


I did believe her right away. I didn't "hear an alarm" until she mentioned her brothers pulling her pants down. She told me that on Sunday January 8th. She had a pediatrician already set for Monday January 9th. I slipped the "lie" into the paper of symptoms for the doctor. I met with MY therapist on Wednesday Januray 11th. I (secretly) met with daughter's therapist Friday January 13th. Daughter has not been alone with *edit* "her dad" since Tuesday over night/wednesday day...I picked daughter up from him, after I met with my therapist.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> sosurreal -
> 
> ...


Everything the OP has said about her father indicates that he's abusive on some level, too. Perhaps not sexually, but in other ways. He's emotionally manipulating the OP with the dying grandma stuff. The OP has said she's scared of him. If the father's teen sons are sexually abusing this little girl, there's a high probablility that they are acting out something that was done to them as children. The OP needs to think about who might have done that to them.

OP - CPS is your friend in this situation, for real. There's a good chance the doctor has or will be calling them him/herself. If you are proactive about calling them, it will show that you are taking it seriously and reduce the risk of your daughter being removed from your care while CPS sorts it out.

Please, please, please stop referring to your daughter telling you she was abused as "lying," even if that's what her father calls it. Your daughter can hear you when you talk.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> I did believe her right away. I didn't "hear an alarm" until she mentioned her brothers pulling her pants down. She told me that on Sunday January 8th. She had a pediatrician already set for Monday January 9th. I slipped the "lie" into the paper of symptoms for the doctor. I met with MY therapist on Wednesday Januray 11th. I (secretly) met with daughter's therapist Friday January 13th. Daughter has not been alone with *edit* "her dad" since Tuesday over night/wednesday day...I picked daughter up from him, after I met with my therapist.


I know you don't really want to believe your dd could have been hurt this way, but I'm confused as to why you're still (as of the time you posted this thread) wondering if these are "red flags." You had professionals tell you they were. Why didn't you believe those professionals? I'm not blaming you for anything - you just need to face reality, and fast. Call in the police, cps, doctors - everyone!


----------



## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks.

That is a good point the Dr probably will call CPS it would be way better if you just called them instead!


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Why was there an agreement that she not be left in the care of her brothers in the first place? Did you have concerns about them before? Again, I'm not asking to point the finger of blame at you - but you need to start writing anything down that you can think of that could be signs that there have been problems.


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Why are you scared of her father? Has he been abusive towards you? It's time to call CPS, really.


There is a very long history with him. He's never physically harmed me. He's the controlling, stalker, head games, emotinal abuser type of guy. There are records but it's my word against his.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I know it made me sick writing it but it's true and the reality is that a lot of times these sickos get away with it even if the girl does confess...I was rape victim, my mom was an SA survivor (by her dad for almost 18 years b/c no one did anything) I realize how hard this is trust me I lost my mother to suicide when I was a kid over it...it destroyed her life...


I'm so sorry this happened to you and you lost your mother. I'm so sorry. (((Safe hugs)))) if okay. I will protect my daughter...even if I have to move across country in the middle of the night. I will do anything I need to do.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> sosurreal -
> 
> ...


I don't "suspect" anyone right now. I don't know what the H is going on. All I know is what daughter has told me. There's also a 5 year old female cousin that lives in the house. I'm wondering if the 2 girls were playing "doctor" or something. I'm not ruling that possiblity out...but I don't "suspect" anyone, cuz I just don't know what to think right now. I know in my heart and soul that it's NOT her dad but it IS someone associated with him/at his house. Then again, they say it's someone you least suspect, so I don't know. I just don't know. But I know my child and she isn't herself lately and something is wrong. She hasn't been alone with him since Tues/Wed. Her last screaming outburst was Thursday. She was a really happy kid last night when I got her from grandma's and a happy kid today...that's what I like to see.

Last night, her dad visited Daughter at my grandma's house. I told him, I'm not with holding his daughter. He is free to visit her but he's not taking her until she goes through therapy for her "bad behavior". Anyway, grandma told me that he stopped by...but he didn't visit with Daughter. He complained to my grandma about me--saying I was crazy, punishing him by not allowing him to take his daughter, etc. Then he told my grandma, "I've never left Daughter with anyone!" Daughter was watching TV but piped up and said, "Yes you have!" He argued with Daughter, in front of grandma, and told Daughter "No I haven't!" Yeah...we'll let the therapist decide.

Her dad does NOT know what I'm suspecting. He does NOT know I've talked to therapists. He only knows about Daughter's "behavior problems" and that she told me the "lie" about the brothers pulling her pants down. He can stay in the dark with the rest of it...I'll let Daughter's therapist tell him what she told me.

The dying grandma is at home. She has nurses come in to care for her. I may text (for proof) her dad and offer to bring her to his grandma's house tomorrow to visit. But it will turn into a fight and he'll want to know why I won't let him have Daughter. I don't know what to say other than "Daughter needs a break from the kids that irritate her". I don't know what to say to stand my ground, without letting him know what's going on.


----------



## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> There is a very long history with him. He's never physically harmed me. He's the controlling, stalker, head games, emotinal abuser type of guy. There are records but it's my word against his.
> 
> ...


What you do is you call CPS and they get to be the bad guys and say she's not allowed over there, if you're worried about saying it yourself. And don't be so sure her dad has nothing to do with this. You say you know it in your heart - but you don't know it with your head, and that's what's important here. Your instincts have been failing you - don't trust them. Trust the professionals. The fact that there's another little girl living in this house makes it doubly important that you call CPS ASAP. If you don't, you will be partially responsible if that child is being abused and you do nothing to stop it. Seriously. Get off the internet and get on the phone to CPS and/or the police.


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> I know you don't really want to believe your dd could have been hurt this way, but I'm confused as to why you're still (as of the time you posted this thread) wondering if these are "red flags." You had professionals tell you they were. Why didn't you believe those professionals? I'm not blaming you for anything - you just need to face reality, and fast. Call in the police, cps, doctors - everyone!


I came to this board AFTER I fought with her dad and stopped visitation. I came to this board to ask, knowing that most of you are very liberal and aren't quick to yell "abuse". I came here, as a distraut mother, hoping all of you would offer other reasons for her behavior or give me "or it could be.." Or something.

I came here after I had been shaking and almost throwing up, after telling her dad he couldn't take her. I came here for validation, I guess. Even though I was (and still am) so upset, your responses gave me peace of mind in knowing that I made the right decision. The ppl on this board are wonderful and you think outside the box. Daughter co-sleeps with me, for example. She co-sleeps with her dad. On THIS board, THAT is normal. In other circles, that alone would be "abuse".


----------



## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

OP- you are doing what you need to do, I hear that. I have a friend IRL who is going through this too. Her process started about three weeks ago, and I have been one of her main supports, so I totally get that you are trying to do the right thing, but it's confusing and scary and hard to know exactly what steps to take and when. My friend got proactive on the police and CPS fronts, and that will help her in the long run, but it was a few days of deliberating agonizing before she could come to grips with doing it and she had her therapist friend go with her. Being in a state of shock is understandable, but you do need to move past it and really get things moving, not just wait for the therapist, dr. etc. After reading the PPs' comments and as you have divulged a bit more, I do think you should contact the police and CPS. They are your allies in this, and you need allies.

PS what he is doing to you with the guilt trips and manipulation is Gaslighting. He is trying to make you doubt reality. I think you should not talk to him anymore, at least for the time being. If you have to communicate, use text or email, keep it simple, to the point, facts only. And as you know, DOCUMENT!


----------



## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Oh my god. I want to vomit.

SOMEBODY IS RAPING YOUR BABY.

GET OFF THE INTERNET AND GO TO THE POLICE NOW.

I am physically sickened that your pediatrician and these therapists, mandated reporters all, haven't called the cops already.

What more do you need? A videotape of your child being molested?

You are living in denial and your child is the one suffering. For a YEAR this baby has been abused. OMFG. Wake up!


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Everything the OP has said about her father indicates that he's abusive on some level, too. Perhaps not sexually, but in other ways. He's emotionally manipulating the OP with the dying grandma stuff. The OP has said she's scared of him. If the father's teen sons are sexually abusing this little girl, there's a high probablility that they are acting out something that was done to them as children. The OP needs to think about who might have done that to them.
> OP - CPS is your friend in this situation, for real. There's a good chance the doctor has or will be calling them him/herself. If you are proactive about calling them, it will show that you are taking it seriously and reduce the risk of your daughter being removed from your care while CPS sorts it out.
> Please, please, please stop referring to your daughter telling you she was abused as "lying," even if that's what her father calls it. Your daughter can hear you when you talk.


I had to say "lying" with the doctor. Her dad was present. I was scared. I later pulled Daughter aside and told her I do believe her. She knows that I believe her.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Why was there an agreement that she not be left in the care of her brothers in the first place? Did you have concerns about them before? Again, I'm not asking to point the finger of blame at you - but you need to start writing anything down that you can think of that could be signs that there have been problems.


This was my hang up. From my past, I've never been comfortable with his sons to babysit her. I have a SA past. It haunts me. Her dad promised he'd never leave her alone with them or anyone else. He lied. And now our child is having all of these signs. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> What you do is you call CPS and they get to be the bad guys and say she's not allowed over there, if you're worried about saying it yourself. And don't be so sure her dad has nothing to do with this. You say you know it in your heart - but you don't know it with your head, and that's what's important here. Your instincts have been failing you - don't trust them. Trust the professionals. The fact that there's another little girl living in this house makes it doubly important that you call CPS ASAP. If you don't, you will be partially responsible if that child is being abused and you do nothing to stop it. Seriously. Get off the internet and get on the phone to CPS and/or the police.


Awesome! I hadn't thought of it like that. I called the DCFS (here in Illinois, not CPS) office Thursday or Friday. I left a message for my friend to call me. I don't have her personal phone number anymore.

I was hoping that she could open a case, annoymously. I'm scared. Daughter saw doctor on Monday and I would think that if doctor called CPS, they would have already contacted me. I'm just scared to call with my name and open a case. You don't know him.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

butterflybaby







this must be so hard for you. in every respect. i know hwat its like with an emotional abuser ex. even after 7 years mine is still the same. i've been successful in putting distance between us, but its taken a lot of inner searching and personal growth stuff to not be affected by him. the distance sure helps. however with my ex i know he is a good father and tries his best with dd. i completely trust him with her - even though he is so mean to me. in 3rd grade dd's teacher had to talk to him about badmouthing me in front of dd(he stopped thankfully).

he does not need any more explanations than you have already given him. stand your ground. try to appear cool and calm and dont fall into his trap of tyring to get a reaction out of you. that serves no one. i KNOW how hard that is to do.

right now your dd is home safe with you. i am sure between your gma and you - you guys are trying to figure out what plan of action to move forward with.


----------



## txbikegrrl (Jul 20, 2006)

I am another person who is very concerned about all those red flags. So now that you've gotten confirmation what is your plan?

Here we have a place called Children's Assessment Center they only work on cases of possible abuse and everyone is very well trained. They would not hold down a child, videotape all interviews and provide free therapy. Access is via CPS only. I'm not sure why your pedi or those therapists have not called, or of they did why it is taking so long, but yu need to call yourself, explain two professionals have determined there is red flag behavior NOW and ask how to get the process moving along quickly.


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *churndash*
> 
> Oh my god. I want to vomit.
> 
> ...


Hey now. Just a minute. A UTI, a nervous tic and sensory issues doesn't scream "danger". When my daughter alarmed me, I took action immediately...took the steps I thought were correct (and they're outlined here a few posts back). I didn't connect any of these together until she alarmed me.

I am at work. She is safe, with my grandma. AND HE IS A DAMN COP WORKING IN THE TOWN WHERE I WORK AND MY GRANDMA LIVES. This will be handled, trust me. But I have to do it the way I feel is safer. The DCFS office will open tomorrow and I will be their first customer of the day, I promise.


----------



## matte (Dec 26, 2010)

You need to call the police NOW. If you are scared to do so, pm me the relevant info and I'll make an anonymous call for you.

Your poor baby suffers MUCH more when you deny it.


----------



## txbikegrrl (Jul 20, 2006)

OkaY so dad being a cop, makes sure you let CPS know and ask what protocol(s) they have in place to ensure there is no preferential treatment for a fellow officer.


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

oh dear. we are all cross posting all over the place.

good luck OP. let us know how things went tomorrow. i will keep my fingers and toes crossed for you.

and we will all be waiting for an update.

good luck.


----------



## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> OP- you are doing what you need to do, I hear that. I have a friend IRL who is going through this too. Her process started about three weeks ago, and I have been one of her main supports, so I totally get that you are trying to do the right thing, but it's confusing and scary and hard to know exactly what steps to take and when. My friend got proactive on the police and CPS fronts, and that will help her in the long run, but it was a few days of deliberating agonizing before she could come to grips with doing it and she had her therapist friend go with her. Being in a state of shock is understandable, but you do need to move past it and really get things moving, not just wait for the therapist, dr. etc. After reading the PPs' comments and as you have divulged a bit more, I do think you should contact the police and CPS. They are your allies in this, and you need allies.
> 
> PS what he is doing to you with the guilt trips and manipulation is Gaslighting. He is trying to make you doubt reality. I think you should not talk to him anymore, at least for the time being. If you have to communicate, use text or email, keep it simple, to the point, facts only. And as you know, DOCUMENT!


Thank you. I tried called the office today but they were closed for MLK. I will call them first thing tomorrow. I'm surprised my therapist didn't make an annoymous call. Maybe she did. But they will be involved one way or another, I promise. My therapist did say, though, that Daughter has to say the "magic words" to HER therapist before they involve DCFS. So..that's why I hadn't called immediately. That's why I left the message for my friend, instead of opening a case right then and there.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> oh dear. we are all cross posting all over the place.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I will update tomorrow.


----------



## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> Thank you. I tried called the office today but they were closed for MLK. I will call them first thing tomorrow. I'm surprised my therapist didn't make an annoymous call. Maybe she did. But they will be involved one way or another, I promise. *My therapist did say, though, that Daughter has to say the "magic words" to HER therapist before they involve DCFS. * So..that's why I hadn't called immediately. That's why I left the message for my friend, instead of opening a case right then and there.
> 
> Thank you. I will update tomorrow.


Please consider getting a new therapist. It's not the therapist's job to assess for child sexual abuse - it needs to be referred to the authorities who can ensure that the process is handled properly, to protect the child and to increase the likelihood of conviction.

I'm glad you're contacting them tomorrow. Something is going on with your daughter, and a different group of professionals with better insight need to be involved to figure out what's happening.

Good luck to you. This must be unbelievably painful.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

If your daughter's ped and your therapist haven't called CPS, you need new care providers. They are mandated reporters and they are seriously dropping the ball here.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

you know we dont know what's going on. perhaps the wheels are in motion. but because the child is with the mom and is safe they are not rushing into it?

i am not sure exactly what will happen? the police or CPS go knock on the dad's door and say we have some questions for your son? wouldnt they want to first make sure this is a legitimate concern before they move forward?

i am not expecting a lot of fireworks to take place.


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## canadianhippie (Jul 1, 2010)

wow

so glad youve made your calls, that went on way to long, waaaay to long

do not take that lightly!!!!!!!! please!!!!

oh my im feeling for your daughter right now, and you, dont be afraid to speak up, she is depending on you to do so

in my future profession absolutely any signs MUST be immediately reported

finished reading the jaycee duggard story, alot of calls/signs were ignored

calling the police will get you immediate CAS involvement and press charges! my god your passive about this


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> you know we dont know what's going on. perhaps the wheels are in motion. but because the child is with the mom and is safe they are not rushing into it?
> 
> ...


Exactly. My therapist told me what to expect. My daughter has to tell them "the magic words" before the therapist involves the authorities. She hasn't even told ME "the magic words".

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canadianhippie*
> 
> wow
> 
> ...


I've removed her from harm. She is safe. There are no physical signs of abuse. Cops are not therapists...they don't know what to ask my daughter, not that she would talk to them anyway. For the time being, I'm following the advice of my therapist. The difference, is I'm not waiting for my daughter to say "the magic words" before involving the PROPER authority...I will call them tomorrow. DCFS will be the first call in the morning. Calling the cops IS useless, especially when HER DAD would be the responding officer. Don't start turning this into a "bad mother thread" cuz that is complete BS and I don't need badgering right now.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I think it makes sense to not call the police in your town if her father works for them. It is very important that you tell the DCFS worker that her father is an officer in your jurisdiction and ask them how they will handle it so that it's taken care of in the best interest of your daughter.

I think your therapist is full of crap, though. There are no "magic words." If a mandated reporter (like your therapist) suspects abuse, they have to report it. She doesn't need to hear anything directly from your daughter. If you told her the things you told us, that should be enough. Her pediatrician should also have reported it.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i am with you eclipse. what are these magic words they want out of the mouth of a babe. i know they have a series of words and behaviours - but one magic word. that makes no sense to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *canadianhippie*
> 
> calling the police will get you immediate CAS involvement and press charges! my god your passive about this


you know RL is not like it is in shows or the news. nothing happens immediately. things will move slowly and surely. but first they have to establish if there is a case or not.

OP could well be a crazy mom trying to malign another child. i cant remember now but even in the Penn State situation didnt they remove the coach after they had established proof that he had molested? they didnt go arrest him right away did they?


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

I am not badgering you or calling you a bad mother. You sound overwhelmed. And sad.

I work in children's services. Your daughter is clearly telling you, through her words and behaviour, that something is amiss. Help her. Involve professionals who can help her. Frankly, you seem to be 0 for 2 with the two you've involved. If the ped called last Monday, you would have been contacted by now almost certainly. The ped and therapist are mandated reporters. There are no "magic words" that a child needs to utter. That's nonsense, and I'm pretty sure whatever board licenses her would be interested in knowing that she's made up some cockamamie threshold for when she needs to report.

Here is information for your state:

http://www.state.il.us/dcfs/faq/faq_faq_can.shtml

Here's the hotline number. You could try it now. Your friend is not going to be able to open an anonymous report, and ethically should hand this over to a colleague immediately. And how long would it stay anonymous? There will be a process.

*1-800-25-ABUSE (Illinois)*


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> i am with you eclipse. what are these magic words they want out of the mouth of a babe. i know they have a series of words and behaviours - but one magic word. that makes no sense to me.
> 
> ...


They would be talking to mom and child.

Mom needs to report.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> I think it makes sense to not call the police in your town if her father works for them. It is very important that you tell the DCFS worker that her father is an officer in your jurisdiction and ask them how they will handle it so that it's taken care of in the best interest of your daughter.
> I think your therapist is full of crap, though. There are no "magic words." If a mandated reporter (like your therapist) suspects abuse, they have to report it. She doesn't need to hear anything directly from your daughter. If you told her the things you told us, that should be enough. Her pediatrician should also have reported it.


Well, if they did, nobody has contacted me. I even mopped today, expecting a knock at my door. Today the offices were closed for MLK but I cleaned my house today with the assumption that DCFS would be knocking on my door tomorrow...either because someone else called them or because I called them. I'm ready. I'm ready for a fight. I've already made the first steps to protect my daughter. The sad thing is, in the eyes of the law, "nothing" has happened. So, she was left alone with her brothers...so? So, she has a sensory disorder...and? So, she said her brothers pulled her pants down (and dad says it didn't happen)...so? Based on what HAS happened, if I tried to make a police report the cop would look at me like I was crazy. DCFS would be my best bet to protecting her. That's where I'm starting. I called them Thursday, left a message. I called Friday and the person I was trying to contact was out of the office. I called today but they were closed. The only thing I did "wrong" was not talk to "anyone" there. I specifically want to talk to someone special and get her opinion off the record to see what step I should take next. But Daughter is safe...this is not an exigent circumstance. Daughter has been penetrating herself all week. If she was examined....surprise!...they would find that she's been penetrated. The last time she could have been harmed was tues/wed. By now, any evidence (if any) is long gone.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *joensally*
> 
> I am not badgering you or calling you a bad mother. You sound overwhelmed. And sad.
> 
> ...


I am overwhelmed. Sad is an understatement.

I'm calling right now.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I'm glad you're calling.

But as to "nothing has happened in the eyes of the law" - that's not true. A teenaged boy pulled down a little girl's pants - that is abusive. It doesn't matter that her father and the boy say it didn't happen. Your daughter has made an accusation and it should be taken seriously by the law.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Butterfly, I hope with all my heart that nothing has happened to her. But from what you have said something obviously has. I understand this is difficult and overwhelming. You are doing the right thing and I certainly hope that everything works out in a positive way. Do not be afraid of him do not give into him. Even if he is not the culprit it's happened under his nose. And you have every right to make sure it's investigated. You said she has a cousin that lives in the home. This may be the opportunity to be a voice for her too. You never know if these things are affecting her as well.

Good luck and positive thoughts your way.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Definitely tell DCFS that dad is a cop in the city. If you feel like DCFS isn't moving fast enough, call the state police and explain why you're contacting them and not the local police. Another option would be to call the county attorney/district attorney (depending on the system in Illinois).

I would also call the current pediatrician back. I would say "I was afraid to speak up when her dad was here, but I'm afraid that there might be signs of sexual abuse. Who do you recommend that I take her to? Would it be the same people you recommended before?" You NEED to get it on record with as many people as possible that you've seen the signs, stopped the visits and are being proactive. You want to make it crystal clear that you are advocating for your daughter, even though you're terrified of this man. One of the things a guardian ad litem does, if it comes to a legal battle, is talk to people like teachers and doctors. If the doctor says "well, I suspected, but mom called them lies" that's not going to look good. Then I'd switch peds.

Then, hire an attorney. Right now, he does not have a legal right to have this child in his home. He does not have a legal right to be at doctor's appointments. He does not have a legal right to be at therapist's appointments. It's CRUCIAL that he not be near the therapist with her. But he is going to fight you tooth and nail on this one. If a member of his family, or he himself, is guilty of abusing his daughter (and right now you have allegations with strong suspicions), his entire career and his entire image as a cop is on the line. You are going to be fighting a desperate man. You do not have the resources to do this alone. That's why you have to call in DCFS and anyone else you can get on your side. You need to stand on your legal rights and his lack of legal rights because he refused to sign the birth certificate. You need an attorney to back you up.

I would absolutely minimize all YOUR contact with him as well. The more you contact him, the more you lay yourself open to his bullying, abusive techniques. He is going to pull out every trick in the book and then invent a few to get you to drop this. You want to give him as few opportunities to do that as possible. It would be great if you could have all communication be by text/e-mail.

(And just so you know, kids often behave beautifully for people they're scared of. They can't take the risk. With you, she knows she's safe and loved.)


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

I just finished making the report. I think I'm going to pass out. I'm so scared. I'm scared that something has happened to my daughter. I'm scared that nothing has happened...and I just made an (annoymous) report. I'm just scared.

All I told the person on the phone was Child said brothers pulled her pants down. She asked if there was any sexual behavior displayed from Child. I told her about the penetration and that my therapist(s) said that's rare for her age. She said, "Ok, lets make a report." She didn't want any other infor...said that was all she needed for an investigation.

God, help us through this. I'm sick.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> I just finished making the report. I think I'm going to pass out. I'm so scared. I'm scared that something has happened to my daughter. I'm scared that nothing has happened...and I just made an (annoymous) report. I'm just scared.
> 
> ...


You did the right thing.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

Bearing in mind we are in a different state, here's how things have unfolded with my friend so far:

She found out about an incident with her dd from a third party. talked to the girl (age 7), got her story. Freaked out. Found out that certain mandated reporters had heard the story and were trying to decide what to do (they were actually considering calling CPS on my friend before she had any idea anything had happened). She talked to another mandated reporter, said she was reporting it to the police the next day. She went to the police and made a report. at some point she was contacted by CPS, they talked to her, took a quick look at her house and may continue involvement (or not). Sometime after the police report was made, maybe a week or so, the girl and her sister, who may have also been approached, had interviews with a special investigator. My friend was not allowed in to the interview, but apparently it was very gentle and child friendly. They started out by just chatting, getting the girls comfy, they played a little, had brand new stuffed animals to give them, and once the atmosphere was relaxed, got them to talk. that was several days ago, but they can only move so fast. Alot of the reason they can't just jump on it and make an arrest or even talk to the accused is because the authorities all have to get their ducks in a row so that they can go in there with a solid body of evidence and all the facts straight. It has been very difficult for my friend, who pretty much just wants to go cut the guys balls off now, but she doesn't want the case to be jeopardized by rushing things. Slow and steady wins the race, you stay on top of it, but know that action may take a little while.

Oh, and I agree with all the PPs who said you should seek new health care professionals. My friend told me about an earlier incident with the same daughter and someone else, and the therapist (mandated reporter) she talked to about it advised her to not report it, but get the guy to leave the island. This lack of action almost assuredly left the girl open to be victimized again.


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

You are a very strong woman. I am sending continued good thoughts your way.

LynnS6 makes good points.


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## artekah (Apr 26, 2009)

Oh, OP.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Can someone message me or something? If you're open to talk...I really need someone.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*  A mother should never have to think about what to say/ask their child over the possibility of abuse.


Really? A mother sending her child to a home where she is concerned about teenagers in the house should have conversations with her child about this frequently.

When I was a kid my mother often explained to me that nobody should ever touch my "private parts" and that I should tell her or a teacher if they did. I think that's pretty standard...

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/child-sexual-abuse/if-you-suspect

I am glad you are taking steps to get help for your daughter, but I find your attitude about this to be really odd. I can't imagine having any child tell me that her pants had been pulled down, without sitting down and having a serious chat about exactly what happened.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Laggie*
> 
> I am glad you are taking steps to get help for your daughter, but I find your attitude about this to be really odd. I can't imagine having any child tell me that her pants had been pulled down, without sitting down and having a serious chat about exactly what happened.


I did.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh gee leave the woman alone SHE DID REPORT IT! thank you OP for standing up for your DD I can't imagine how hard this is especially with an ex like that! YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.

Is there a friend you can call to come over IRL to get support right now? Your mom? Someone? I can't imagine being alone with this.

Have to go put DD to bed (or attempt to haha) I hope you can find some support tonight and I hope it's OK that I will be praying for your family.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> Oh gee leave the woman alone SHE DID REPORT IT! thank you OP for standing up for your DD I can't imagine how hard this is especially with an ex like that! YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.
> 
> ...


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

not the time. And you never want to think it could happen. EVER!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Laggie*
> 
> Really? A mother sending her child to a home where she is concerned about teenagers in the house should have conversations with her child about this frequently.
> 
> ...


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Op - I have tears in my eyes. You are doing WONDERFULLY. You are so BRAVE. Sending much love your way. (((hugs)))


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

OP- I'm glad that you made the report. There are definitely enough red flags. Don't worry about upsetting your DD's father or his family. This is about your DD and her well being everything else is on the back burner now. Keep us posted.


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## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

OP, another red flag for me is I believe you stated you were a victim of SA. It's my experience that people are drawn to the type of people they were surrounded by when they were little. If you had an abuser in your past, I would not be surprised if you (unwittingly) were attracted to an abuser in an adult relationship.

I worked with someone whose husband was arrested for molesting the neighborhood boys. While she was visiting him in prison (I never understood that,) she met a prison guard and they started dating. When I met him, it was very apparent that this guy was way scary. I told her to run from him and she told me I was wrong. They got married and he eventually molested her daughter. Where I saw scary she saw desirable. Not that you (or my friend) would ever consciously choose a child molester, but it just seems to so often be repetitive.

I don't know if there's any value in my statement, but it certainly concerned me when I read your comment.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Laggie*
> 
> I am glad you are taking steps to get help for your daughter, but I find your attitude about this to be really odd. I can't imagine having any child tell me that her pants had been pulled down, without sitting down and having a serious chat about exactly what happened.


She DID! Actually, as a parent, you really want to leave the specific questioning to the experts.

She's right: No parent should have to think about this. It's sad that they do. And she's incredibly courageous to have contacted DCFS and filed a report.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

I totally agree with Sunday Crepes and had thought that too but didn't say it... I am also wondering if he was sexually inappropriate with you (you don't have to answer, just think about it). My first husband (who is abusive but I don't believe is a ped) was very controlling and abusive. One way he was abusive to me was sexually. He never completely forced himself all the way on me, but it was close, and he forced many things that I was not into. (wow this is really personal but i feel a need to share). And because he was such a smooth manipulator, he made me feel guilty for not wanting it. I tried to talk to some women friends about it, but they didn't get it, they just took the attitude that sometimes we push our comfort zone to give someone else pleasure and that is normal. Now there is a lot more information on different types of abuse, but ten years ago, if you didn't have physical evidence, you weren't really abused. I also believe my ex was a victim of child sexual abuse because of certain things he said and did. So this gives me the perspective that in your situation, 1) "dad' is seriously messed up in the head, and no one is really safe from him. 2) there may be a legacy of abuse. 3) that legacy may not come directly from "dad" to your DD but through the son. 4) "dad" will be an enabler in that legacy, even if he isn't doing it himself.

I don't know if this helps, but it could be another clue in the larger picture.


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## elefante (Jan 2, 2012)

I just have to say that I agree with *eclipse* 100% on everything she has said.

OP, I hope you and your daughter never has to see him again.

And yes, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop saying "lies". That is just awful.


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## branditopolis (Mar 14, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> *What you do is you call CPS and they get to be the bad guys and say she's not allowed over there, if you're worried about saying it yourself.*


CPS can't disclose who made the call, and if DD's father doesn't know about your suspicions, really it could've been anyone. Don't worry too much about them, you're doing the right thing.

Sending my good vibes your way, and especially to your daughter.


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## branditopolis (Mar 14, 2011)

I think the OP needs support and reassurance for the action she's taking. Your finger pointing is not constructive so much as it's blameful.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *churndash*
> 
> Oh my god. I want to vomit.
> 
> ...


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

i am glad you called them. you did the right thing.


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

OP- so glad to hear you took the first step and filed the report. Confused to hear that you are scared of your ex but still want to keep him in your DD's life (out of fear I'm presuming). Him coming around grandma's house uninvited to pick an argument is really disturbing. Out of respect for your grandma at the least, I hope you can get a restraining order or something so this doesn't happen again when she is at grandmas house. Both Grandma and child should be safe from this man. I hope you can also do the same. If he's not legally entitled to it, stop contact with him. You're trying to keep the peace with a possible abuser or enabler. He doesn't deserve it. That he is a cop in your own town is frightening. Little wonder you are so scared! If he wants to be in his daughters life so badly then he should have to prove to the court why he should get a 2nd chance to be a good dad. If your daughter was abused while in his care, he should be held accountable. Can you call the state cops and get a restraining order or something? I feel so bad for you that you can't even call your own cops for help.

Also, DO drop the current ped, and go back to your old one or get a new one. The fact that your ex persuaded you to change the dr you have always taken your DD to, and that he is a liar, raises red flags for me. Why did he want you to take your DD to this particular dr so badly? Isn't it the same one his own teenage sons go to (the boys you suspect of abuse) ...If they were abused as children too, the ped must have missed the red flags there too, or did nothing about it. I hope she's not scared of him too. I can't understand why in the world it was NOT documented the time you called about her bleeding from the rectum. That is really disturbing. Find another ped fast and consider filing a complaint with this practice.

Your head must be spinning. Hope you can get a good lawyer advice asap. Does CPS know that there is another 5 yr old girl still living in this home? Good grief!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *churndash*
> 
> Oh my god. I want to vomit.
> 
> ...


1. Get a hold of yourself, woman. For real. "SOMEBODY IS RAPING YOUR BABY" - was that completely necessary for any of us to have to read?

2. Read the whole thread before you comment, and

3. Please, in the future, take the time to recognize a completely overwhelmed mama who is in way over her head, very suddenly, and doing the best she can. Then, treat said mother appropriately, instead of trying to rip her heart out while she is in the grips of complete and sheer agonizing horror.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

OP, you need to get it in your head this very second, that you are going to have to get nasty with this one. You know your Ex...hell, half the women on this thread "know" your ex. We married/dated and subsequently ran like our pants were on fire AWAY from that dude. We all know that "a-hole ex" PLUS a shiny badge equals MAJOR blow-back as soon as he figures out what you are trying to assert has gone down here.

You need a good lawyer, the best you can reasonably afford. Recording conversations with your DD is good...but you also need to be documenting every conversation you have with your ex. I might even try the following:

1. Get an answering machine, the old-school kind that records on an actual tape.

2. When you need to have a serious conversation about something with him, the "confrontation" about this whole thing...call him when you know he can't answer and tell him you want to talk about all of this and to call you back asap.

3. When he calls, let it go to the machine and then pick it up just as it starts recording....then fumble a little bit, saying something like "ugh, voicemail is broken, I had to hook up this machine and I don't know how to make this recording thingie stop" - he thinks you're stupid enough that this may fly...and as the conversation continues he may forget he's being recorded...and depending upon what state you are in, the whole "ugh, I don't know how to make this thing stop recording" might count as "enough" for meeting the "you can't record someone without informing them that they are being recorded" requirement.

It may amount to nothing...but it may be your one chance to get him to give "his version" of what happened in an off the cuff manor.

Oh, and record ALL conversations you have with your DD on the phone from his house. You can even tell her "I'm going to record this conversation so I can remember it later, okay" - I dn't know, just in case or whatever. Then move on to whatever it she is calling about. May not be admissible in court later...but it may be. Some judges are just crazy....that can work in your favor, or not.

As for the red flags thing...dude, I'm sorry, without the teenage boys thing and the pants being pulled down (which IS abuse, in and of itself! humiliation, control, shaming - the SA trifecta!) and all of that stuff....this man would not be watching my DD under any circumstances. He lost me at being a creepy, controlling, stalker. Period. The movie thing and not letting her call you...that's all "icing". He's a shitty man. Period.

I don't want to be too tough on you, because you're going through a lot....but I want you to know that not only COULD he be involved in abusing your DD...he probably is. Yeah, I said that.

My ears perked up BIG TIME when I heard him say "she's lying". - yeah, sorry dad, but you lose. My husband would lose his freaking MIND at the mention of someone pulling down DDs pants, especially in the context that she is having "behavior problems". I don't think it would even MATTER if it were true, he would fly so hard off the handle over that. Now I, the girls mama, would take her some place safe and talk to her, hug her up and try to find out what was going on....but I don't know a single respectable father, whose first response to that information wouldn't be to completely lose it and go WAY over protective of his daughter. No "good" father hears "they pulled my pants down" and jumps to "you're lying". The first thought is "MY LITTLE GIRL!! WHAT???" and then ACTION to try and protect her.

He is protecting people who are victimizing his DD. You need to start thinking of him as an abuser, just get yourself in that frame of mind with him, because his home is acting as shelter for people who have shamed, humiliated and potentially further abused your daughter.

Who is worse? The teenaged boy who abuses his sister....or the father who stands in the way of stopping it and calls her a liar? What a pig.

The man who made my childhood a living hell was the "nicest guy you'd ever want to meet". NOBODY saw how sick he was. He was "Mr. Dreamboat". There were red flags absolutely ALL over the place. Down to making fun of my body (in a sexual way) in front of people. When I was 8. Yeah. My mother was "SO lucky he was so willing to step in and be a father to her three young kids" - yeah, well, two of us were little girls, so that was a bargain price for him. I was in my late teens when a school counselor reported the situation and set the ball in motion. My mother believed me...and then proceeded, after he was settled somewhere else, to allow my smallest sister (his bio DD) to have visitation with him, off the books. She was five. She's a young woman now. We've just recently discovered that it really wasn't "just me"...he's a fucking abuser and he molested my little sister, too. Nobody ever told her why our parents got divorced. Can you imagine? I left home right after everything went down and he moved out and I didn't even know for years...can you imagine my guilt at the fact that, when I did find out, I believed my mother, that it was "just me" and that he would never do that to her? I was still so deep in shame and selfhate that I believed it HAD to have been me. 

Your head is not clear on this. He emotionally and mentally abused you....you are probably not even fully out of that fog. You still can't see him clearly, even as much as you hate him now. The PP upstream who said that she considered your history of SA to be another red flag that your ExH might be an abuser, is 100% correct. I say that as a survivor...whose mother is also a survivor....whose mother was also a survivor. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Neat little chains down the line. You married him. Red flag for SA number one. He turned out to be a controlling a-hole, who stalked you and emotionally abused you. Red flag for SA number two, even if he never laid a hand on you or tried to SA you even once. Everything else just makes sense after that. Everything just fits.

Document everything. EVEN THE THINGS THAT DON"T MATTER. If he gets nasty and aggressive with you, I don't care if you are straight up lying(in ways that can't be caught) on the report...file a protection order/restraining order. He is a cop, he already has more control. Take out a restraining order on him and claim whatever you have to. Threats, menacing....as long as there is no one there to act as a witness to the contrary, say whatever(within reason) that you have to, "I'm afraid he is going to kill me for embarrassing him with these allegations" - then buy a gun. He tries to come around you after that, shoot him in the goddamned face. I love ya, mama, you're obviously fighting the "good fight" right now.....but you're a little weak on the "kicking his ass" part of this. This dude is straight up harboring young men who have humiliated and shamed your daughter and, most likely, worse. Treat him as such. Maybe not OPENLY right now, when you want him to cooperate and not realize how serious you are....but in your "heart of hearts" you need to start calling this piece of poop what it is. No more of this "I know in my heart he would...." this or that or whatever. It happened in HIS house. From here on out, you assume the worst about this a-hole. You can mend fences later. Something happened to her. He called her a liar. Game Over for dad. Period.

Don't make things any harder for yourself than you have to...but don't be "pollyanna princess" with this prick either. Do what you have to do. Do not assume anything is just going to "work out" in your favor. Fight this hard, before you have to.....starting with a good lawyer.

You have just little enough evidence that things could be wishy-washy. That means be smart. Document everything. Be on YOUR best behavior. Assume he's gonna go apeshit on you. Don't tell him a damn thing that he doesn't need to know. Period. Do not tip your hand to this dude.

Good luck. We are here for you. Don't mess around with this mama....I hear a bit of "timid" left over in your voice. You are not married to this creep anymore. He does not hold any control over you. He is not protecting your child. SOMEBODY HAS TO. That somebody, is YOU. This is the time for FIERCE. MAMA BEAR. DO IT.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

If you can't afford a lawyer. call Legal Aid. Even when they are already stretched to the max with their caseload, they will usually find a way to help someone in as terrible a situation as you. They put a priority on abuse cases, and severity counts.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> If you can't afford a lawyer. call Legal Aid. Even when they are already stretched to the max with their caseload, they will usually find a way to help someone in as terrible a situation as you. They put a priority on abuse cases, and severity counts.


She is in Illinois and she said her gma will help her get the best lawyer.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

Ah, right, sorry, trying to keep up.... but maybe my comment will be helpful to someone else anyway.


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

OP- One thing you need to keep in mind is that your DD's father is a mandated reporter. He himself in his profession is required by law to report any sort of abuse and he obviously has not done so. That would look great on him by the way, if he ever tried to get visitation. Also, if the pediatrician has not reported this, they can be referred to the Illinois State Medical Disciplinary Board for legal action. You need to realize that your Ex legally doesn't have a leg to stand on. Not only is he not on the birth certificate, he doesn't have any legal visitation, no custody, and is a complete piece of sh!t. I can understand being scared. But take BroodyWoodsgal's advice and get a restraining order/EPO and a gun.

Here is a link you need to look at: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1460&ChapterID=32

It's a to get through, but I would read as much of it as you can.


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## mudsummer (Feb 24, 2010)

I had sexual abuse when I was a child but not quite young as young as your daughter. These are red flags!!!

I am also confused as to why you haven't asked her if someone has touched her down there? Or even took a good look down there? Maybe you have but please do something about this now. I at 7 felt comfortable enough and knew it was wrong so I told my mom right away. She never did anything about it because it was a family member. I was then and am now labeled as a liar, "smart" but in a way that alludes to me being manipulative by that side of the family. My mom has never gotten over it and still blames herself for not doing anything about though she and my aunt believed me when really the whole family knew including my father. Please do something about this so you don't live to regret it. I think she is acting odd. Also I find if deplorable your ex husband would just say she is lying over and over again and not want to investigate.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mudsummer*
> 
> I had sexual abuse when I was a child but not quite young as young as your daughter. These are red flags!!!
> 
> *I am also confused as to why you haven't asked her if someone has touched her down there? Or even took a good look down there? Maybe you have but please do something about this now.* I at 7 felt comfortable enough and knew it was wrong so I told my mom right away. She never did anything about it because it was a family member. I was then and am now labeled as a liar, "smart" but in a way that alludes to me being manipulative by that side of the family. My mom has never gotten over it and still blames herself for not doing anything about though she and my aunt believed me when really the whole family knew including my father. Please do something about this so you don't live to regret it. I think she is acting odd. Also I find if deplorable your ex husband would just say she is lying over and over again and not want to investigate.


At this point, I think it's important for the OP to leave all questioning and examining to the professionals. She needs to do everything by the book here in order to protect her daughter.


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## mudsummer (Feb 24, 2010)

Also not to repeat something that has already been said but have you thought that this could her father abusing her. I have not read every post so not sure if this has been mentioned but you have said many times you are scared of him and I am sure your daughter has picked up on it. Also whether or not she realizes that something is wrong most kids do not want to get their parents in trouble.

It sounds like you are really trying to take care of this. Let me say Thank You for doing what is right for your daughter from a fellow survivor of sexual abuse it does take courage sometimes to do whats right even if what is right is obvious and easy to others.

@eclipse I was seen by many "professionals" who just had me repeat the story of the abuse and never did anything about it. They didn't report it nor did they help empower my mother to report it so I do not agree in the least with the idea of "leave it up to the professionals". In the end it has to be her mother who protects her and does something about it. I have read through the whole post and noticed she updated that she did ask her questions relating to it without being to specific. Really her daughter would be more apt to tell her mother any uncomfortable situations than a professional.


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## mudsummer (Feb 24, 2010)

ALSO LISTEN to BroodyWoodsgal. Her advice is excellent.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mudsummer*
> 
> @eclipse I was seen by many "professionals" who just had me repeat the story of the abuse and never did anything about it. They didn't report it nor did they help empower my mother to report it so I do not agree in the least with the idea of "leave it up to the professionals". In the end it has to be her mother who protects her and does something about it. I have read through the whole post and noticed she updated that she did ask her questions relating to it without being to specific. Really her daughter would be more apt to tell her mother any uncomfortable situations than a professional.


I don't know when your abuse occurred, but understanding of sexual abuse and approaches have evolved. I'm not saying that what happened to you won't or can't happen today, as some jurisdictions are behind and not all professionals are equally competent. But increasingly there are sexual assault centres, where professionals work together to avoid a child having to repeat their story over and over again, and so that treatment and court processes can proceed quicker and more smoothly for the child and their family.

It is important to ensure that things are handled appropriately so that things can go to court. Most abusers have multiple victims, so it's important for the OP's child and other children who may have contact with whoever it is can be made safe.

mudsummer, I'm sorry that you had those childhood experiences and that you were let down by the system.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

In addition to what joensally said, the OP's ex here is emotionally abusive and manipulative AND works in law enforcement. If the OP's dd ends up indicating her father as an abuser, the OP is going to want that done in the presence of professionals who can testify in court so that there is no room for anyone to say that she is putting words in her daughter's mouth.


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## mudsummer (Feb 24, 2010)

@ eclipse As I said I went through all this a few times. I know all about what people said what to whom and who your supposed to speak to about it. I have been an advocate for a few sexual abuse victims in my own life. Obviously I don't think she should run out the door pointing fingers at the father but as she has already said she is think of having her daughter still be around the father and I want her to think that it is possible and to be on her guard.

There is really no reason to keep going on to me about this. We don't agree, done.

Good Luck OP and I wish you and your daughter the best!


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Obviously some people are not too concerned about reading the entire thread to get up to speed. Maybe the OP should change the thread title. Ugh it's so frustrating to have people get on here and point their finger right now. She's doing all she can right now.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mudsummer*
> 
> @ eclipse As I said I went through all this a few times. I know all about what people said what to whom who your supposed to speak to about it. I have been an advocate for sexual abuse victims in my own life. No reason to keep going on to me about it....
> 
> Good Luck OP and I wish you and your daughter the best!


I'm not going on at you about it. I'm giving information to the OP, and to other people who might be in her situation reading this thread, so that she can make the best choices about what happens with her daughter going forward.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

I wonder if OP is still reading? I hope she updates and lets us know how they are doing, even if it takes her a while to get back here.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I actually was going to break my silence and suggest to her that she doesn't. And maybe considers editing some of the details she's shared. If this gets ugly, it would probably be best for there not to be a trail through the internet of the happenings.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> I wonder if OP is still reading? I hope she updates and lets us know how they are doing, even if it takes her a while to get back here.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> OP, you need to get it in your head this very second, that you are going to have to get nasty with this one. You know your Ex...hell, half the women on this thread "know" your ex. We married/dated and subsequently ran like our pants were on fire AWAY from that dude. We all know that "a-hole ex" PLUS a shiny badge equals MAJOR blow-back as soon as he figures out what you are trying to assert has gone down here.
> 
> ...


Thank you. You sound like such a strong woman. Thank you for your advice.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Laggie*
> 
> Really? A mother sending her child to a home where she is concerned about teenagers in the house should have conversations with her child about this frequently.


I didn't see this question earlier. Of course I've talked to my daughter about this. Maybe I didn't do it often enough. Maybe I was afraid of being paranoid or hypersensitive, so I didn't talk about it as much as I should have.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> I wonder if OP is still reading? I hope she updates and lets us know how they are doing, even if it takes her a while to get back here.


A lot has occurred.

On a happy note...

I took my daughter home after work Monday night. (It has been about a week since she was with her dad). When we got home: Daughter went in her room and got a pull-up for bed, she put her clothes in the hamper, she put the pull-up on, she brushed her teeth, she grabbed a bottle of water and put it on the night stand and she said, "I'm all ready for bed, mommy."

That's the kid I know. This "good" behavior is something I haven't seen in a very long time. Maybe it's a coincidence that she hasn't been at her dad's house in a week. Maybe it's not. But I had happy tears in my eyes, seeing my baby again...

We laid in bed and giggled and laughed about silly things. I couldn't believe I was able to laugh after the night I had just had. But we did. She mentioned that her tooth hurt. I checked it. I told her, "Now, honey, you're going to have to see the dentist. I'm going to have to make you an appoinment." (I took her once and she refused to open her mouth. She's been arguing and angry over not ever going back). She didn't argue last night. She asked questions, "Will it hurt, what will they do, etc".

Then she said, "But I want a girl doctor, NOT a boy doctor!" I nodded and assured her that I would get a really sweet girl doctor for her. I asked her why she wanted a girl doctor. She said, "Because I like girls, they're nice." I hesitated but asked, "Why do you not want a boy doctor?" She tightened up her lips and put on her "mad" face, turned away from me and said, "Because I don't!"

It was lightning outside, a storm brewing. A warm night in January. I laid in bed and thought about the night a tornado came into town. We were at walmart. We heard howling outside. Everyone yelled "get down, get down!". I put DD under the clothes rack. I threw piles of clothes on top of her. I laid on top of her and the clothes. I held her arms so tight. I told her, "I will not let you go. I will keep holding on to you. We have to talk to Jesus to protect us...." I cried.

I worked midnights Tuesday night, DD was with grandma. I received a happy phone call saying "good night"...and lots of "I love you's." She also (for the 2nd time in at least 4 months) willingly put on her pull-up.

This is no different than the night at walmart. A mother is supposed to throw herself in front of a train for her kids. True or not, I'm a concerned mother, laying on top of my daughter to keep her safe.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Peace be with you both mama.


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## 3xMama (Oct 14, 2010)

You are one strong mama, standing up for you DD. I'm glad to hear that the ball is rolling. I'm so glad that at this point your ex doesn't have any legal right for your DD. He sounds like a grade-A a**wipe. I will be thinking of you and your baby and sending you lots of light and love. Things will work out and your daughter will be forever grateful to have had a mother who believed her and removed her from the situation as soon as it was clear something was wrong. In your place, I probably wouldn't have put any of the symptoms together until she said that her brothers pulled her pants down, either. If the thought crossed my mind, I'd have put it off to being paranoid. You're a great mom, don't let anyone, esp your ex, tell you different!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> <snip>
> 
> This is no different than the night at walmart. A mother is supposed to throw herself in front of a train for her kids. True or not, I'm a concerned mother, laying on top of my daughter to keep her safe.


Yeah, this.

Hugs, mama, I'm no stronger than you or any other mama on this thread. Nobody has anything inside of them to prepare them for dealing with this kind of horrible situation...we're all the same. We're just a bunch of mamas trying to grow up happy, confident kids. Doing the best we can. It's easy for me to talk tough, in my cozy SAHM life where my kids are never out of my sight, with a good and kind, reasonable man who comes home every night to be connected and loving with his family....you know? It's reeeeal easy for me to talk all about "what I would do" etc. It's not as easy for you....ACTUALLY IN THIS....with this creep who has "rights" because he's her bio-dad. But you have to be even tougher than I talk...you have to be twice as tough as you think I sound....because sometimes you only get one go-around. That's the only reason I said all the stuff I said. I've seen too many heartbroken mamas, who knew that their Ex was a creep, but didn't know HOW BIG an asshole he really was, until they figured out too late that they shouldn't have been wearing kid gloves in court. Or giving him the "benefit of the doubt".

You need to fight him like HE is the tornado threatening to swoop up your kid...because when he figures out what you are asserting has gone down here, he is going to become that. He is going to use every means available to him, to protect his reputation. Nothing stinks worse in the precinct, than the guy who is accused of vague sexually related crimes against his own precious girl...he's going to do everything he can to smear you, make you look crazy and fight you for this child if you accuse him of SA or of covering up SA. It's the only thing a guy like him CAN do in a situation like that. This is going to embarrass and shock him to his core....nothing turns a creepy, controlling stalker dude crazier faster than something like this. You need to be on your toes, alert and on top of this shit. You need to have a SERIOUS discussion with your Grandmother about safety, keeping locked up, documenting anything strange that happens and not letting him into her home unannounced, if he seems agitated, etc. SHE needs to pull out a protective order, too, should there be ONE incident of EVEN SLIGHTLY concerning behavior while your DD is at her house. I'm not even joking...I want you ladies armed and properly trained in how to use a firearm. I'm talking at the range, once a week, until you feel comfortable handling a gun. None of this willy nilly BS where you have a gun but don't feel confident with it. Be safe, be trained. It's not funny, it's not to be taken lightly. You need ot be able to protect yourself.

I'd rather you overreact to his potential threat level, than undereact and end up sorry. Were it not for his history with you, my guard may not be up so much for you....but I've known too many controlling, stalker-ish "cop types" to feel comfortable telling you he "probably won't go nuts over this" - you know?

Really think of the reaction he had to you leaving him. Not good, right? You stepped out of the "control box" and he really didnt like that. Doesn't look good to the guys, to have your wife up and leave you. How do you think he will perceive the action you are currently taking? He may literally want to kill you over this. Just be so careful. So, so careful. He's not your friend, he's not your co-parent, he is a threat...an out of control tornado, bearing down on you and threatening to take away the most precious thing to you. Proceed with extreme caution.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *3xMama*
> 
> You are one strong mama, standing up for you DD. I'm glad to hear that the ball is rolling. I'm so glad that at this point your ex doesn't have any legal right for your DD. He sounds like a grade-A a**wipe. I will be thinking of you and your baby and sending you lots of light and love. Things will work out and your daughter will be forever grateful to have had a mother who believed her and removed her from the situation as soon as it was clear something was wrong. *In your place, I probably wouldn't have put any of the symptoms together until she said that her brothers pulled her pants down, either.* If the thought crossed my mind, I'd have put it off to being paranoid. You're a great mom, don't let anyone, esp your ex, tell you different!


^The bolded goes for me, too. A four year old acting up? Rubbing herself, even penetrating? Wants to wear loose clothing.....my three year old is a MESS of an individual right now. It's just a phase. She definitely has discovered self-pleasuring. I don't really think she penetrates herself, but I wouldn't freak if she did. Loose clothes, talking back, etc etc...none of that throws up red flags for me...UNTIL the pants being pulled down by teenage brothers. Then it all "clicks".  I wouldn't have known either, mama.


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## branditopolis (Mar 14, 2011)

I agree. Like the OP said, separate, all these instances don't seem alarming. Once that last element of the boys pulling her pants down is introduced... THAT'S when these things seem more suspicious.

I also understand her fear of overreacting... it's hard to gauge how to respond in a normal way when you've had such abnormal experiences with this sort of thing yourself.


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## geemom (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, not to say that I wouldn't look in to it, or perhaps even be concerned, but I also feel that some of these behaviors are consistent with anxiety and/or perhaps sensory issues. Great that you are being aware and not putting your head in the sand in case something more serious is going on!!!


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

I called Daughter's previous pediatrician (where bro's are not affiliated) and got her an appointment.

I took grandma with me so she could wait with Daughter in the waiting room while I talked to doctor first.

Daughter freaked. She wouldn't let me out of her sight. Wouldn't let me talk to the doctor alone. I needed to talk to the doctor. I started to cry and I told the nurse, "I don't know what to do. Should I just walk away from her? I don't want to traumatize her but I need to talk to the doctor." The nurse said to just run into the exam room so Daughter couldn't see me. We thought she would calm down...

She SCREAMED. The nurse had to hold the waiting room door closed, dd was fighting to open it, became very aggressive and just screamed, "Noooooo! I want my mommy! Nooooooooo!"

I was in exam room just crying. I went back out cuz I couldn't handle that. Daughter saw me. The nurse stepped out of the way. Daughter was on the floor sitting. She continued to scream. She screamed, "I hate it here! I hate it!" She saw me and came running, hugged me...

I lost it. I cried. I fell to the ground. In front of all of the staff and ppl in the waiting room. I just fell and sobbed. Took Daughter into exam room with me. She held me so tight and just cried.

I was forced to talk to the doctor with Daughter present. I told the doctor everything that I knew. I told her of the specific stories that Daughter told me, that her dad calls her a liar. I tried to be as "nice" as I could be, tried to s-p-e-l-l things...I didn't want to talk about this in front of Daughter.

Daughter started inturupting me as I told the doctor about specific stories. Daughter took over and told the rest of the stories. She felt comfy with the doctor.

I told DD that it was important for the doctor to look at her vagina. We asked if it was okay. She agreed. I brought her favorite blanket and we covered her. She pulled her pants down for the doctor. But she got scared and wouldn't open her legs. I told the doctor that I didn't want to force her. DD decided she wanted to stop and we did.

Doctor told me that if I hadn't of already made a report that she def would have. She told me, "the only assurance we have right now is that DD hasn't said she was touched or hurt but there are many causes of concern." She assured me that I did the right thing. She believed me when I told her, "I know my kid and I know something is wrong..."

We left. I put grandma and DD in our car (to stay warm). I stepped away to smoke and text my friend....

When I got back in the car...

Grandma told me....

"DD just told me that 'mommy is my hero'."

I lost it. I just lost it. I buried my face into her carseat (was buckling her) and cried. But I tried to hide it from her. I took a deep breath and swallowed it.

"Mommy is my hero." She knows I'm trying to help her.

I no longer have any guilt. I stomped all over any guilt I had.

Right now I'm sad. Crushed. Devestated. Thinking of the who/what/where/when's...all the possibilities.

I'm in between crushed and boiling mad. I don't know which mood to fuel...I have so many emotions right now. So many thoughts.

I seriously cannot thank you ladies/guy's enough.

You helped me be her hero









The investigation is moving forward.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

You are a good, strong mama. Thank you for seeking help and support, and thank you for sharing your difficult journey.







we're here for you and your DD


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> You are a good, strong mama. Thank you for seeking help and support, and thank you for sharing your difficult journey.
> 
> ...


This.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Your daughter is lucky to have you.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Very proud of you. This is so hard to go through. We are their voice and you're doing exactly what she needs you to do. Be a fierce mama!


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

That was a tearjerker post! Glad she is getting some help now. I hope CPS will really get things moving as well.


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## 3xMama (Oct 14, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> You are a good, strong mama. Thank you for seeking help and support, and thank you for sharing your difficult journey.
> 
> ...


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> You are a good, strong mama. Thank you for seeking help and support, and thank you for sharing your difficult journey.
> 
> ...


Agree with the above.

What an amazing post. The tears are rolling here. You really got the ball rolling. You're definitely a hero.

One thing I want to add, the nurse that said to run to the room while you're daughter can't see you... bad advice... does not build trust.. She should always know where you will be, what you will be doing. No lies or tricks. I still remember my first day of kindergarten my mom said she'd be right there at the window looking in at me she promised she wasn't going to leave.. As soon as I started working on something she left! I looked up and the face that was there a minute ago was GONE and I screamed bloody murder lol ... and still remember that deception to this day. It might have been just as tough, but I would have much rather her told the truth. I'm not sure I ever trusted her again after that!

So glad to hear you stomped out your guilt... you go girl. If that guilt ever comes back or he tries to make you doubt yourself you stomp that guilt right out again!

Advice about the dentist, we see an awesome pediatric dentist - my 3 yr old had a tooth extracted & they used the gas (nose piece) it REALLY relaxed him in less than a minute - it was piece of cake from that point on of course it was a quick procedure but he was very anxious does not like to open mouth for dentist (1st experience at another place was horrid!) - you might want to consider a specialist with the option for the nitrous oxide gas it completely calms anxiety. (this is not iv sedation... they are conscious and awake and back to normal after the gas is removed)


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## branditopolis (Mar 14, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah!


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

Oh, mama. You are her hero. The fact that DD knows and acknowledges that you are standing up for her speaks volumes. Very proud of you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Way to go, OP. I started crying when I read "mommy is my hero". Of course you are! Your dd is lucky to have someone who is listening and paying attention.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Just a quick update.

Thursday, my daughter went to the Children's Advocacy Center. I do not know what she told them. But she told them enough information for the investigator to come out and say....

"This will be an ongoing investigation. We will notify the police. The police will contact the perpetrator."

That's all he told me.

I all but lost my mind Thursday. It was confirmation that my baby was hurt.

I have calmed down. DD and I are doing okay. Trying to resume life as normal, not talking about it. Our first therapy session is Tuesday (with SA therapist, referred by Advocacy Center). I will ask the therapist what to say to dd. I don't want to say the wrong thing.

I'm in disbelief. My mind is racing through thoughts and memories. I could have done this, I could have done this better. What if this? What if that? How could he allow this to happen? How did I not see this coming? I can't sleep, even with a PM. Keep waking up, thoughts racing. I just need my mind to "hush".

Thank you all so very much for your help and support. Thank you for urging me to call the hotline. I was so terrified but you made me do it. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Oh mama. I don't know what to say. I am so sorry you (both) are going through this.

FWIW I too (like some other pps that have chimed in) would not have put all the dots together until she told you about her brothers getting her to pull down her pants. Please don't torture yourself with "what ifs". You are doing amazingly. You are such a strong mama for your girl. You are a hero.


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## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

It is a sad, sad reality of life on this planet that we just cannot always protect our sweet children from everything bad that might happen to them. As a mother, all you have to do is your best. You are not called upon to be omniscient or omnipotent. Did you take steps to protect your daughter once you suspected something was going on? YES. Are you being an amazing advocate for her now, in spite of your own fear? YES. You are doing fine, mama, even when you feel guilty and terrified and unsure if you're doing the right thing.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> I could have done this, I could have done this better. What if this? What if that? How could he allow this to happen? How did I not see this coming? I can't sleep, even with a PM. Keep waking up, thoughts racing. I just need my mind to "hush".


Write something like this down and tape it to your mirror: "I did my best. Even the angels can do no more." (It's a quote from my grandma.)

You have done an amazing number of hard things this week. You called an made a report. You took your daughter to the doctor and told your suspicions. You took your daughter to the Advocacy Center. You stopped visits with her dad, even though he was trying very hard to bully and guilt you into letting him take her again. Did you know you had the courage to do that? That's huge. You've taken steps to break the cycle of abuse. You're getting help for yourself and your daughter. Be gentle with yourself. You are strong and you have done good things.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

Major red flags. Like you said, some of the stuff is probably nothing...kids get UTIs sometimes, but put it all together and it's bad.

Be careful about the recording and such. Heard a similar case in CA and it backfired on the mom. Get a good attorney, and a good therapist...second opinions. They need to evaluate her immediately after there is abuse suspected or the credibility of the claims won't hold up in court....too many people can contaminate the case by talking to her about it before the evaluation. Sounds like you already had the evaluations..but you may need an expert in that area who can get some answers out of her...and it might be too late for that. I mean, you should still do it so you can get answers and help her, but it may not hold up in court.

I think there is more to this story. What doesn't sit right with me is the fact that you let her see him to begin with when he has no legal rights to her....not just see him...spend 4 days with him! His name isn't even on the birth certificate? Why not? Sounds like he didn't want to be involved at that point...then changed his mind. Too bad. He needs to get a DNA test if he wants any claim to her. Please tell me there is a chance he may not be the real daddy!!

If you really wanted her to see bio dad, you could have gone with her. Don't trust her with someone like that. Sounds like he was still manipulating and verbally abusing you and you were too scared to tell him "no". You needed to seek help to protect you and your daughter. Sounds like you have finally come around and are realizing that.

Maybe because of your past history with sexual and verbal abuse, you weren't able to see that you were putting your daughter at risk for letting her go see this irresponsible, horrible person...who was basically a stranger since you can't ever really know a liar...and his two stranger sons. It wouldn't surprise me if his son's turned out to be monsters...product of their environment. Keep in mind that dad may know of the abuse, and may be protecting them. Do you know anything about these boys she was staying with? Have they been in trouble before? Have they been sexually abused?

With the way he treats her (leaves her with brothers, doesn't provide appropriate supervision, etc.), it sounds like he doesn't really care about her...only wants visitation because he knows it annoys you. Using her as a pawn.

You gave her the cell phone because she said she cries for you and her dad won't let her call you...then she calls you with the cell phone, and you hear him being irresponsible by letting a 4 yr old stay up at midnight to watch violent R rated films, and then she calls you an hour later, crying, saying she is scared....I don't know that I would have waited for that second phone call. What held you back from going to save her at that point? Fear? Maybe you could have brought a cop with you knowing it might get ugly. The cop could probably get him for kidnapping if it came to that.

It probably feels good to finally be able to put your foot down and protect your little girl. Stay strong and keep it up!


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Um. That's not helping.


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## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmarroq*
> 
> I think there is more to this story. What doesn't sit right with me is the fact that you let her see him to begin with when he has no legal rights to her....not just see him...spend 4 days with him! His name isn't even on the birth certificate? Why not? Sounds like he didn't want to be involved at that point...then changed his mind. Too bad. He needs to get a DNA test if he wants any claim to her. Please tell me there is a chance he may not be the real daddy!!


You know, responding to this thread with a bunch of criticism of what this mama has done in the past is not helpful. She is in a very painful situation, clearly loves her daughter, and is having to do all kinds of scary and difficult things to protect her. It's easy to look back (now that we have all of these facts laid out in front of us) and say that this little girl would have been better off never being left at her dad's house. It's a lot harder to see that when it's your own complicated life, and you have to make the best decisions you can as you go along without knowing how things are going to turn out.

Also, "please tell me there is a chance he may not be the real daddy"? What a weird thing to say. It is basically like saying, "Please tell me you were sleeping around a bunch and don't really know who your daughter's father is!" I can't imagine a situation in which I would ever think that's an appropriate thing to say to somebody.


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *laohaire*
> 
> Um. That's not helping.


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## branditopolis (Mar 14, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> It is a sad, sad reality of life on this planet that we just cannot always protect our sweet children from everything bad that might happen to them. As a mother, all you have to do is your best. You are not called upon to be omniscient or omnipotent. Did you take steps to protect your daughter once you suspected something was going on? YES. Are you being an amazing advocate for her now, in spite of your own fear? YES. You are doing fine, mama, even when you feel guilty and terrified and unsure if you're doing the right thing.


Definitely this.


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## branditopolis (Mar 14, 2011)

jmarroq, did you read the whole thread?


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you for all of the kind words and support.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Write something like this down and tape it to your mirror: "I did my best. Even the angels can do no more." (It's a quote from my grandma.)
> 
> You have done an amazing number of hard things this week. You called an made a report. You took your daughter to the doctor and told your suspicions. You took your daughter to the Advocacy Center. You stopped visits with her dad, even though he was trying very hard to bully and guilt you into letting him take her again. *Did you know you had the courage to do that?* That's huge. You've taken steps to break the cycle of abuse. You're getting help for yourself and your daughter. Be gentle with yourself. You are strong and you have done good things.


When DD was born, I vowed to protect her. I talked the talk. I had difficulty walking the walk. You don't realize how terrifying it is until it's happening. It would be like any of you, suspecting your husband of harming your children...and you have to make "the call" to investigate. Terrifying. I was terrified of falsly accusing someone. Terrified of his reaction if it wasn't true. Terrified of ruining his reputation/career. Just terrified....

But nothing is more terrifying than knowing my child was hurt. Nothing is more terrifying than NOT being her hero.

I have a million questions and thoughts circling my mind. But we don't have any updates. For now, her and I are safe. We both start therapy on Tuesday. Now that things have calmed down, it's hard to wrap my head around any of this. This has happened...but it's so unbelievable.

I sincerely thank all of you for all that you've done and said. The nice and harsh words...they all helped me make the phone call that will bring justice to my daughter.


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)

Abusers are terrifying, that is how they succeed in their abuse. The most successful ones are extremely subtle in their terror, so you don't even know what to be afraid of... does that make sense?

You are doing great, all things considered. Remember to breathe, let yourself cry and rage when you need those moments, don't think to hard about it right now (there is plenty of time for that in therapy) and give yourself a break. Do something fun. Eat ice cream and watch a movie in your pajamas... take a day trip somewhere special.... dance for no reason... do whatever makes you and your DD smile. You are in a difficult time, but there is still plenty to enjoy in life, and y'all need that as much as anything.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jess in hawaii*
> 
> Abusers are terrifying, that is how they succeed in their abuse. *The most successful ones are extremely subtle in their terror, so you don't even know what to be afraid of... does that make sense?*
> 
> You are doing great, all things considered. Remember to breathe, let yourself cry and rage when you need those moments, don't think to hard about it right now (there is plenty of time for that in therapy) and give yourself a break. Do something fun. Eat ice cream and watch a movie in your pajamas... take a day trip somewhere special.... dance for no reason... do whatever makes you and your DD smile. You are in a difficult time, but there is still plenty to enjoy in life, and y'all need that as much as anything.


The bolded is SO true and so damned important to remember...a good abuser has you walking around feeling like YOU are the crazy one...has you scared, but completely unable to articulate what it is you're scared of. It's like in a horror movie, where they use a liiiiitttle bit of scary music and SLIGHTLY darker lighting to make you squirm in your seat in absolute TERROR...but there is nothing ACTUALLY scary on the screen. It's the idea of something "not right" and really dangerous lurking in the dark corners that has you freaked. That's what subtle abuse is like...some creepy music and dark lighting...nothing overtly scary, but a general sense that you are in danger and that you'd better "keep your act together" and "do the right things".

OP.....DIVE INTO YOUR OWN MIND in therapy. REALLY try to shake as much of the baggage from your marriage to this scumbag as you can. You are SO FREAKING SMART for going into therapy right now, because it's going to help you sort your head out and make sense of where you're coming from with this dude so you can formulate a plan for moving forward, free from the traps and tricks that kept you in his fog for so long. It is going to help you immensely moving forward, to shake the past with him and feel truly free from his grips.

Do NOT be scared.....be alert.

Do NOT second guess yourself because of him....know the truth you fight for and hold it close to you.

Do NOT let him drag you into feeling like you are one woman, clutching a baby....fighting a tiger.

He is no tiger, he is a broken, sad person. At the end of life, true love and bliss and "all knowing" await us all when we go back to the stars or heaven or whatever....but some of us move up a level, closer to the light and love while others stay low low low...just as beloved by the universe and our creator, but not yet ready to break free from the ugly patterns of hate and violence and pain on this planet.

Mama, you are moving closer to the light....he is still so low in consciousness. You are living truth and love and goodness and he is living pain and fear and is trapped in anger. Pity him, for being so closed off from what is true and loving. It's sad. Really. You are not alone in your fight against him.....everyone here, everyone around the word who prays for mothers, all the forces of good in all people on this planet....this all marches with you toward your victory against this small, angry man. Every good person out there, with every beat of their heart, is sending a pulsing beat of love and encouragement to you...feel that and let it carry you when you feel too tired of this all to go on. We're all with you.









When you fight for RIGHT.....you never, ever fight alone. Do not be scared. Be joyous! Your DD is blessed to have you and you will be victorious....I can't wait to congratulate you!


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ButterflyBaby11*
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


But you ARE. We can't always prevent every bad thing that happens to our kids. But we can keep our eyes open and prevent it from happening AGAIN. You stopped it as soon as you realized there was something wrong. You ARE her hero. You didn't let it happen. It happened, and you are putting an end to it, and helping her through it.


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## 3xMama (Oct 14, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> It is a sad, sad reality of life on this planet that we just cannot always protect our sweet children from everything bad that might happen to them. As a mother, all you have to do is your best. You are not called upon to be omniscient or omnipotent. Did you take steps to protect your daughter once you suspected something was going on? YES. Are you being an amazing advocate for her now, in spite of your own fear? YES. You are doing fine, mama, even when you feel guilty and terrified and unsure if you're doing the right thing.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Write something like this down and tape it to your mirror: "I did my best. Even the angels can do no more." (It's a quote from my grandma.)
> 
> You have done an amazing number of hard things this week. You called an made a report. You took your daughter to the doctor and told your suspicions. You took your daughter to the Advocacy Center. You stopped visits with her dad, even though he was trying very hard to bully and guilt you into letting him take her again. Did you know you had the courage to do that? That's huge. You've taken steps to break the cycle of abuse. You're getting help for yourself and your daughter. Be gentle with yourself. You are strong and you have done good things.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *swd12422*
> 
> But you ARE. We can't always prevent every bad thing that happens to our kids. But we can keep our eyes open and prevent it from happening AGAIN. You stopped it as soon as you realized there was something wrong. You ARE her hero. You didn't let it happen. It happened, and you are putting an end to it, and helping her through it.


All these things, mama, all these things!! As much as we wish we were, as moms, we are not omnipotent mind readers. Its a hard, difficult path to be a mom and you are walking it spectacularly. Do your best to not berate yourself, I know that's so much easier said than done. Once things started to click, you took all the steps necessary. You are now on the road to things being taken care of. No one could've done any better than you did. Take some time to yourself, you need it. You are fighting a very necessary but wearing battle, don't forget about yourself a little here and there, too. You are doing great!


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## elefante (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm in tears here, mama. I hope that you are soon able to focus on the positive things you are doing for your daughter and forgive yourself for not acting sooner. You are her hero. No doubt. Your family will be in my thoughts. <3


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## newmum35 (Aug 16, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> You are not alone in your fight against him.....everyone here, everyone around the word who prays for mothers, all the forces of good in all people on this planet....this all marches with you toward your victory against this small, angry man. *Every good person out there, with every beat of their heart, is sending a pulsing beat of love and encouragement to you*...feel that and let it carry you when you feel too tired of this all to go on. We're all with you.


Agreed.. Well said.


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## cat13 (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't have anything to add, but just couldn't read without posting. You are a strong woman and most definitely a hero.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

OP you're a brave and amazing momma for taking action. I am not suprised your daughter sees you as her hero... and I totally agree that this is just like you protecting her in a tornado or whatever was happening in that Walmart story you told. Only difference is, a tornado/storm is very easy to perceive as a threat, and no one will judge you badly for yelling "STORM!" and trying to protect yoru daughter. Child abuse is very different, as you've both experienced and are dealing with now.

OP it sounds like you've learned now that you should trust your momma instincts much much more. I am really hoping that anyone else reading this thread, if you learn anything, it's this: no matter how hurtful/hard it is to think of someone you trust (or someone you fear) hurting your child, if your child has NEW SYMPTOMS that come up after visiting that person, you must must must look into it. OP, this is not to go back and hash through the whole coulda/shoulda/woulda thing, because the most important thing is you're protecting your child now. But anyone else reading this thread, things like the bleeding from the rectum, all the vaginal discomfort, the digital penetration... if it's NEW for your child (especially the bleeding and the vaginal irritation), take your child to a trusted doctor. Period, end of story. That way you don't have to depend on your instincts or worry about who will judge you for accusing someone of something. This is how you figure out if what your child is experiencing is common, is not a worry for your doc, or is a worry for your doc.

Sure, docs aren't perfect either. But what broke my heart second most in OPs story (first heartbread of course is what her dd went through and OPs agonizing experience) is that many of the things, they were new. Sudden changes in behavior are always always worth noting and looking into. NOT getting stressed about or freaked out about right off the bat, but while of course children go through stages as they grow, some things are not stages, and if you don't know the difference or arent' sure, you should ask your Ped or someone you know knows kids (someone NOT in your family if you worry it's a family member hurting your child), and honestly run by them everything that's "new" and bothering you. Here the child was acting up, was clearly going through stress with the visits... these are things to note, and ask the child about,a nd then ask some "expert" (ped, school social worker, anyone who is objective and can give you advice).

My heart just breaks because I know that for every person like OP brave enough to ask the question here or anywhere... there are so many others who are just too afraid, or doubt themselves too much, or it's too hard to believe someone is hurting their child. But if it's new, and especially if it's sudden, and it's sexual or violent or really strange (to you) in nature... ask more questions of both your child and a professional. Rectal bleeding, vaginal issues... have your child examined and be honest with your doc about what your fears are or what you don't want to happen (like OP was clear, no holding dd down).

OP please keep us up to date with what happens. You did one of the hardest things ever and got past your fears to help your daughter. She is lucky to have you as a parent, and I hope and pray (and believe!) that you'll both be ok. And worlds better than if you hadn't acted! Thanks for being brave enough to start the conversation.


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## ButterflyBaby11 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> OP you're a brave and amazing momma for taking action. I am not suprised your daughter sees you as her hero... and I totally agree that this is just like you protecting her in a tornado or whatever was happening in that Walmart story you told. Only difference is, a tornado/storm is very easy to perceive as a threat, and no one will judge you badly for yelling "STORM!" and trying to protect yoru daughter. Child abuse is very different, as you've both experienced and are dealing with now.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your kind words.

Initially, the only "alarm" that sounded was when she told me she was alone with teen bro's and they pulled her pants down. I went to 2 message boards and simply asked, "Would you be concerned if your daughter said her teen bro's pulled her pants down?"...

The women responded with "yes I'd be concerned." Accidentally, I mentioned about dd penetrating herself. I noted that, "I know it's normal and didn't want dd to feel ashamed...."....

That's when women told me penetration at her age *wasn't* normal. That's when I started to shake. I searched my mind for her other behavior/symptoms. I contacted 2 therapists...and then came here and listed all symptoms in the original post.

Had I not "accidentally" mentioned about dd penetrating (and people telling me that wasn't normal)...I wouldn't have picked up on all of this.

Like you said, reaching out to "outsiders" who are objective really helped. December 22 was the day we (her dad and I) saw her penetrating in the tub. Jan 8 is when she told me about the pants being pulled down. I just wasn't alarmed until Jan 8.

Because I have a past of CSA, I was always afraid of jumping to conclusions. DD coming home and "hurting when it peed"...I didn't want to jump to conclusions. I just figured she was dirty (and his house IS dirty, from what I've heard). The words of the ER doctor kept ringing in my head..."Now that she's had her first UTI, she will be more prone to getting future ones."

UPDATE:

DCFS closed the case, unfounded for lack of evidence. I contacted a good lawyer who will help me fight if he takes me legal. She was shocked that the case was closed to quickly (right at 2 weeks). I briefly told her dd's behavior and she said, "Her behavior is very...odd. And it is not normal for her to be penetrating herself. Something is going on." Without formally being my lawyer (not retained yet), she advised me on the phone, "Do. Not. Send. Her. With. Him." So...I have a good lawyer who will fight for us.

I've been told by numerous sources that dcfs is a joke. I was told you have to fight this with your own resources--therapists, lawyer, etc. A dear friend of mine, who is a school teacher, told me "You're basically fighting the system now. You're fighting the system that's supposed to protect children." She has a stuident, 5th grade girl. The girl went to her, saying she was bleeding badly from the rectum. She took her to the school nurse. Dad came and took girl to hospital. Everyone, especially dad, knows this girl is being abused (by an older brother at the mother's house) but the girl won't admit to it. Because the girl won't admit, the dad can't rescue her  It's all so sad. The girl is afraid of losing her mom, which is why she is staying quiet.

DD has not disclosd anything in therapy yet. Therapist says dd is very guarded and withholding something. She displays an abnormally high amout of separation anxiety from me. She believes, based on what she's witnessed, that something happened for dd to behave this way. It's just a matter of paitence and praying that dd talks.


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## 3xMama (Oct 14, 2010)

Um...wow. Yeah, it does seem to be a joke. Esp since kids are, well, kids. They don't use logic the way adults do. If someone says to them "Don't ever tell your parents about this or you'll lose your parents", they aren't going to tell! They will freak out that they are going to lose their parents. I just fail to understand how after just two weeks they can claim there is no evidence. And the story about the fifth grade girl is absolutely heart wrenching. I'm so disgusted by it. So disgusted.

How is her father reacting to all of this?

I sincerely hope your DD (and the other girl!) are able to open up soon.







Hang in there, it will pull through.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I don't know what state you live in (and since some of these posts are searchable you probably don't need to tell me) but sometimes when you call CPS you either get a good worker who isn't getting the details that will make a case open-able... or sometimes it's not as good a worker and they don't recognize a problem when they see it in some cases.

For now I have some advice for you... first off, I absolutely 100% agree with the lawyer you spoke to: do NOT let your daughter visit him, at all, period, end of story. I think I read here that his name's not on the birth certificate, you were never married, don't know if there's ever been a blood test, and was he in her life consistently all these years... all those things go to whether he has visitation rights. Sounds like right now, given the concerns, he doesn't, unless I'm missing something.

Next, do speak to these lawyers to find out how you protect your rights. If you think it's healthiest to cut off contact, or to only have supervised visits in a neutral place... whatever you think in an ideal situation is best, get advice on the best way to get that. And ask your lawyer if you should file a police report about what she said, even if the police wouldn't do anything. Ask if there's a way to do it safely, since he's a local cop and of course you'd rather he not retaliate (i.e. can you report in another jurisdiction? I don't think you can but you should ask anyway in case there's a way).

If you haven't already, sit down and right down EVERYTHING. Write down all your concerns and red flags, when you first noticed them, the correlation with her visits with her dad, her separation anxiety, EVERYTHING. It's always good to have the story in writing because you never know when you'll need to draw from it or even want to submit it to your lawyer or someone you trust.

Re: her separation anxiety, let me be clear that obviously I don't know what actually did or didn't happen between your daughter, your ex/her dad, and his sons. But I DO know that often when children are abused, part of how the abuser keeps the victim silent is to tell them that if they speak up, they'll lose what they value most: in this case your daughter would lose you. I would not be suprised at all if your ex didn't tell her that he'd arrest you or something else scary and terrible as a way to try to get her to shut up. Maybe that's not what happened... but given the flags on this, I wouldn't be suprised if that's exactly what happened. Especially if he's a cop.

Have you ever asked your daughter whether anyone's ever asked her to keep a secret, especially a secret she didn't want to keep but she was afraid to tell? And what she was afraid would happen if she told? If you haven't asked her, you should. Sometimes that is a question that can help open the door to more truth about what she's been through, if there's anything she hasn't told you yet.

Best of luck mama. Sorry CPS closed it already, but who knows, it could be they really didn't have enough to go on yet, since she hasn't disclosed. But that's why you need to write down all her behaviors and especially the timeline between when she visited her dad and noticing the penetration and other behaviors (you mentioned her getting more difficult to deal with, etc) and any anxiety/upset she showed when it was time to go visit her dad. Write ALL that down.

Heaven forbid you ever need to report to CPS again, but having this will make it much more effective a report.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Oh, I forgot one last piece of advice, but it's important: be clear, this is just my personal opinion, and a hunch, but you be the judge: If I were in your shoes, and I was afraid of my ex, and with all this going on, I don't think I'd tell him the reason he's not getting visits is your concern about abuse. Even if he's aware a report was made (which maybe he's not), I would just say you're concerned about your dd's behavior and you are trying to really focus on her and supporting her, so you are limiting a lot of what she does right now.

I don't know if he'll protest or how long that will hold him off, but things would probably get trickier much faster if he was aware you're following up on concerns that he or his sons (or all of them) may have abused her.

So maybe just generally say you've got concerns about her behavior and you are limiting her activities for awhile.

Last thing, have you made sure the school knows he is never to pick her up or drop her off or even see her at the school? As the custodial parent, if he isn't not her father on record, you can say that he's not to have contact with her at school or ever pick her up or talk to her. And maybe talk to her about how she feels about not seeing him for awhile, and tell her (if you think it's the right thing to do) that no matter what she's afraid of, you will do everything you can to never be separated from her so if he finds a way to talk to her and says anything that scares her, she should always always tell you immediately. And if it's true he has no rights, be clear with her that she NEVER has to go with him if he shows up somewhere suddenly. She can say no, and it's even good to have a safety plan, like what should she do if she's walking home from school or getting off the school bus and he's there?

I don't want to scare you, or have you scare her, but if you talk to her in matter of fact, general safety language and assure her you're not going anywhere, it will help her deal better if he gets upset that he can't see her and tries to see her without permission.


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## jmarroq (Jul 2, 2008)

OK, so I finally read the whole thread. I guess the part I wrote about getting a cop to go with you if you are afraid of her dad...that doesn't really apply...he IS a local cop! UGH!

I know some moms were upset that I that I didn't understand why the daughter was allowed to go to his house in the first place, with him being such a horrible person and having no claim to her (not on birth cert...not married...etc)...didn't mean to offend...if you keep reading, I did say that she probably did things out of fear due to the fact that she was a victim of abuse, etc...and that it was good that she was finally getting help.

OP, from your last few posts, sounds like things are getting much better. You filed the report, have managed to keep her from her dad's house, daughter seems to be adjusting well, behavior seems better, you're both in therapy, investigation is ongoing... You must be so proud of yourself!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmarroq*
> 
> Major red flags. Like you said, some of the stuff is probably nothing...kids get UTIs sometimes, but put it all together and it's bad.
> 
> ...


----------

