# Pitbull moved into apartment building



## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

So our neighbors upstairs brought home a pitbull a month or so ago. They told DH it was temporary (neighbor volunteers at a shelter) but it's still here & it's starting to make us feel uncomfortable.

Sorry if this post offends anyone... I'm not a pet person & I'm definitely not a fan of so-called "vicious" breeds. I'm not heartless (been a vegetarian for 17 years) but I'm also frankly not concerned about the dog.

Another thing I have to admit -- The dog is also annoying us since the neighbors often leave him to whine for long stretches of time (usually right around DS's bed time) right above DS's bed. He has woken DS up from his naps & has made putting DS to bed at night an hour+ long ordeal (beyond the normal ordeal).

I actually was not too worried about the safety aspect of having the dog close by until we decided we'd need to hire a babysitter two days a week. For some reason, the worry just kicked in. We don't have much contact with the dog. We have an shared enclosed yard but they never take the dog there. They don't strike me as irresponsible (except for leaving the poor thing alone for long-ish stretches).

I should also say that I think our building is supposed to be pet free & I have my suspicions that they didn't check with the landlords first.

So my questions are: How uncomfortable would you feel with a pitbull in your building? How would you approach the neighbors about it? Or would you go directly to the landlords?


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Mixed. I've been around great pitbulls and terrible ones. The biggest factor in a great pitbull is socialization. Sounds like there is little socialization and if you feel uncomfortable you need to talk to the neighbors and tell them you are uncomfortable. Be honest with them. If you share a yard they should have let you know they planned on getting this dog. Or taking it in until it found a home. Pitbull or not. Not all dogs are good with kids. What do they know about the dog? Do they know if it's good with kids. If they dog got out while your kids were out how would it handle the situation?


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

The idea of 'dangerous breeds' is more of populist/media one than one based in any actual reality. Rather, there are dangerous owners. Pittbulls, by nature of their reputation, tend to attract dangerous, bad owners, unfortunately, but they are not any more 'vicious' than any other large breed dog. Labrador Retrievers, the quintessential family dog, do more damage every year in the US.

The pittbulls I have known personally (um, doggilly?) have been sweet, sweet, affectionate babies who think they are lap dogs, and have been uniformly incredibly patient with children. But they were all owned and controlled by loving owners.

So, the short version is, no, the dog would not worry me. It's not going to magic itself out of its apartment and appear in your kitchen, and if that somehow happened, well, your chances are pretty much as good with a pitt bull as they are with any other dog.

As with any 'strange dog' any contact between dog and child should happen while the dog is on leash, and 100% controlled by his master.

I don't like the sound of a dog being left alone for long hours with no contact, not because I think it puts you in danger, but because dogs are social creatures and crave the comfort of their packs. With few exceptions, people who are going to be gone all day every day should either hire someone to come around once or twice a day and play with the animal and walk it and generally love on it, or better yet, enroll it in a 'doggy daycare' program.

If you are quite sure that the lease forbids pets, by, all means, talk to your landlord, because people who disregard the rules that make all of us comfortable annoy the heck out of me







But, in absence of an actual sign of a problem, no, I don't think you're in danger just because a pitt bull is in the building.

(factors that might change that: you've seen the pitt bull show clear and inappropriate signs of aggression. You become aware that the owners are either physically maltreating it or neglecting its needs for food, water and exercise. The dog is not properly contained and gets out more than once. But all of these are true for ANY dog, not just pitts.)


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks for your perspectives, ladies. Still not sure what we'll do. I think we'll at least try to get from the neighbors if it's a long-term thing & go from there.

I haven't detected any aggressive behavior & really haven't even heard the dog bark or growl, which I'm assuming we would since we hear him whining. Since it doesn't seem aggressive I think that's part of the reason it hadn't really worried me until now. Maybe we should try to ask about the dog's background if we ever encounter it when DS is around to get an idea if they know how it is with kids.

Thanks again!


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Also keep in mind that *any* dog, no matter how agreeable, how well trained, what history it has, has a potential to bite, and any dog can do some serious damage if it bites hard enough, particularly a big one.

I've taught my own children doggy manners: never, ever, ever approach a strange dog without expression permission from the owner, and only then if it is on leash. Never run at a strange dog or raise your arms above its face. If you want to be introduced and the owner gives permission, stand perfectly still and hold out your hand palm up, below the level of the dog's nose. And NEVER get between a dog and his food.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> The idea of 'dangerous breeds' is more of populist/media one than one based in any actual reality. Rather, there are dangerous owners. Pittbulls, by nature of their reputation, tend to attract dangerous, bad owners, unfortunately, but they are not any more 'vicious' than any other large breed dog. Labrador Retrievers, the quintessential family dog, do more damage every year in the US.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!

Before you talk to them, get over the notion that all pit bulls always equal increased danger. They can be awesome dogs. Things that would annoy me are the noise from a neglected dog and bringing a dog into a pet free building. That is what you should concentrate on, not the breed.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I agree that it's about the owner, BUT, there are breed differences. I got a lab mix after having a border collie/gsd mix, and the difference is HUGE. It's not just those two dogs, either. I've met quite a few, and breed tendencies absolutly exist. A golden retriever needs loving and compainionship, but other than drool and jumping, you can mostly ignore all training/walking/etc, and get away with it just fine. A german shepherd (or any other fighting or working dog) needs constant training, mental stimulation, and exercise. Slipping on its behavior instruction for even a short time can have disasterous consequences. Those are very hands on dogs. They are bred to be. I mean, that is the reason for different kinds of dogs...they are used for different things. Having a bull fighting dog cooped up in an apartment is a very bad idea. Did you know that pit bulls were often called "nanny dogs", and protected the children? They are very loyal. But...they still need a lot of attention and training.

Yes, labs, etc, can and do bite, and, I believe they are, actually, statistically the worst. I suspect that is because they are generally docile, however, and people let their kids all over them. Or, perhaps, the statistics are skewed because a lot more people own them? I don't know...I honestly haven't looked into it enough.

My point is that, yes, all dogs are a concern, and it really is how they are handled, but there is a significant aspect to breeding and training. As such, I would not be happy with a pitbull, gsd, or any other high energy breed. Even if you have several good meetings with this dog, I would not trust it alone, period. The daily situation changes so frequently with that type of dog, that they can be "keyed up" from being crated, or whatever, moreso than a calmer breed. The fact of it living there would be okay. The shared yard. Not at all.

If you are not a dog person, I would suggest that you get a few books on dog mannerisms, and get a feel for what a dog is trying to communicate, and how to appropriately respond. The Other End of the Leash (Patricia McConnel) and On Talking Terms With Dogs (Turid Rugass) might be good places to start. For example, when a dog is displaying aggression, looking away and yawning, licking your lips, and relaxing your body posture tells the dog you are not a threat. Trying to bend down and talk soothingly to it, and reaching out your hand, however, can seem very threatening to a dog. Facing a dog and telling it to come often will not work, but turning and walking while saying come will. The reason for this is that the dog firstly understands more clearly what you mean, the second is that if you go quickly at all, the chase instinct is aroused in the dog. That chase instinct, especially combined with a scared, screaming child, can illicit a prey response.

Anyway, just a few examples.

Again, I'm not a pit hater, or any other high energy or working dog breed. I do, however, feel very strongly about the needs of dogs who were bred to work. I'm not a trainer, but I have done a good deal of reading, and have owned 10 dogs, and been involved with several litters of puppies.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just1More*
> 
> A german shepherd (or any other fighting or working dog) needs constant training, mental stimulation, and exercise. Slipping on its behavior instruction for even a short time can have disasterous consequences. Those are very hands on dogs. They are bred to be.


German Shepherds? Really? My aunt and uncle have always had german shepherds, and they are wonderful with children. They do need some training when they are young, but then they are just sweet lovable things. The one that my aunt and uncle have now has never been around children my DS's age, and once she figured out what he was and got used to his size has been absolutely wonderful to him. She would never turn around and bite him (I'm serious, it just wouldn't happen), she is seriously patient with him (he is supervised when he is with her, I don't let him mistreat her but I don't worry if I'm int he kitchen cooking and it will take me 30seconds to get to him, and I can go pee without worrying about them being together), and LOVES going outside int he yard with him because it gives her a "job" - herding the kid and watching him. She will let me know if he falls, she slobbers on him which he doesn't like, and is just generally super sweet. The Shepherd they had before her was the exact same way, she loved kids and never would have harmed them. My aunt and uncle do a basic training class with them as pups, and then just make sure to walk them enough, and they also have a huge backyard that the dogs can run in - the one they have now loves me because I throw a ball for her - but they don't need constant exercise they adjust very well to their owners activity level.

I will say though, that pitt bulls scare the crap out of me. Yes, they can be very sweet, but it seems they sometimes do a 180 in no time at all, and their huge powerful jaws lock, which means that you can't get them off once they bite down. So if they attack, the damage is severe always, and they can be very unpredictable just like all other dogs. There were pitt bulls in my old apartment building, and I really didn't like being around them. They especially made me nervous around my son, who I have taught to never approach a dog he doesn't know.


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## wishin'&hopin' (Jun 2, 2008)

It is actually a myth that pit bulls (there are several breeds that get called "pit bulls") have locking jaws. The anatomy of their jaw is the same as any other dog. All dogs can bite. The only dogs I have ever been bitten by were a border collie mix and a lab mix. I have a colleague who was attacked by miniature poodles during a home visit. I would actually be more annoyed about the dog waking up my kid. Maedze has written a great response and I totally agree!!


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Where I live in the last few years there have been numerous tradgedies where children have been mauled by pit bulls. one child was actualy killed by his family pets after he climbed out a window. One was attacked in a park near the home of the parents and one was pulled down off her bike and attacked.

I am not for being politically correct here... I also had a adult friend get attacked in his back yard while going to a neighbors to fetch his 5 yo son. Scary to think what would have happened if the boy had run home thru the yard alone.

I would tell the landlords. Period. It is not safe to have pit bulls near children- it's like leaving a loaded gun on the bed. not safe.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

The boy from Johnston City- I know his grandmother...the town is a few miles from me.....I am not doing this to cause an argument- this is just the truth of the matter.

http://www.hillattorneys.com/dangerous-dogs/pit-bull-fatalities-2009.shtml

http://www.2keller.com/news/southern-illinois-boy-killed-in-johnston-city-dog-attack-20090708.cfm

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/12939845/young-boy-in-critical-condition-after-pit-bull-attack

Also a town near me...

These are just some examples that I know of personally... Google pit bull attacks on children- it's sickening.

You are right to be alarmed.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

[quote name="Super~Single~Mama" url=
I will say though, that pitt bulls scare the crap out of me. Yes, they can be very sweet, but it seems they sometimes do a 180 in no time at all, and their huge powerful jaws lock, which means that you can't get them off once they bite down. So if they attack, the damage is severe always, and they can be very unpredictable just like all other dogs. There were pitt bulls in my old apartment building, and I really didn't like being around them. They especially made me nervous around my son, who I have taught to never approach a dog he doesn't know.
[/quote]


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## wishin'&hopin' (Jun 2, 2008)

http://www.dontbullymybreed.org/pitbullLetter.php The link I've attached gives some interesting statistics and reasoning behind why pit bulls (sic) are noted to be aggressors in so many attacks. If you don't want to click through, it has little to do with the dog and MUCH to do with the owners. I stand with Maedze on this one...and I also note that if the phrase "pit bull" was not in the thread title or mentioned otherwise, there would be very little response to this thread--or if the dog in question was listed as a "golden retriever" (the breed of dog which attacked my dog at a dog park a few weeks ago).

*Golden Retriever Moved Into Apartment Building*

"So our neighbors upstairs brought home a golden retriever a month or so ago. They told DH it was temporary (neighbor volunteers at a shelter) but it's still here & it's starting to make us feel uncomfortable.

Sorry if this post offends anyone... I'm not a pet person & I'm definitely not a fan of so-called "vicious" breeds. I'm not heartless (been a vegetarian for 17 years) but I'm also frankly not concerned about the dog.

Another thing I have to admit -- The dog is also annoying us since the neighbors often leave him to whine for long stretches of time (usually right around DS's bed time) right above DS's bed. He has woken DS up from his naps & has made putting DS to bed at night an hour+ long ordeal (beyond the normal ordeal).

I actually was not too worried about the safety aspect of having the dog close by until we decided we'd need to hire a babysitter two days a week. For some reason, the worry just kicked in. We don't have much contact with the dog. We have an shared enclosed yard but they never take the dog there. They don't strike me as irresponsible (except for leaving the poor thing alone for long-ish stretches).

I should also say that I think our building is supposed to be pet free & I have my suspicions that they didn't check with the landlords first.

So my questions are: How uncomfortable would you feel with a golden retriever in your building? How would you approach the neighbors about it? Or would you go directly to the landlords?"


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wishin'&hopin'*
> 
> http://www.dontbullymybreed.org/pitbullLetter.php The link I've attached gives some interesting statistics and reasoning behind why pit bulls (sic) are noted to be aggressors in so many attacks. If you don't want to click through, it has little to do with the dog and MUCH to do with the owners. I stand with Maedze on this one...and I also note that if the phrase "pit bull" was not in the thread title or mentioned otherwise, there would be very little response to this thread--or if the dog in question was listed as a "golden retriever" (the breed of dog which attacked my dog at a dog park a few weeks ago).


I understand that it has much to do with the owners, but really pitt bulls are dogs that need constant socialization and constant training. I don't think one can responsibly own one and work 40 hours per week leaving the dog home alone. Those dogs can be very very dangerous. And I don't care if their jaws actually lock, or the dog just doesn't let go after biting down - a pit bulls jaws can do TONS more damage than a Golden Retriever can. They never let go, and there have been many reports that a pitt bull had to be KILLED to get its jaws off its victim. That is terrifying. I'm very careful around dogs (although my aunt and uncles dog is a love and just wants to give kisses and be petted - I would never take someone she didn't know into the house without her owners being home, but she knows me well enough that I can go in whenever I want and she gets super excited and happy, my son too), and some breeds are generally OK, but I don't take that for granted and I'm teaching my son not to as well.

It of course goes without saying that ANY dog of ANY breed should be put down if it bites anyone. I don't own dogs because I don't have the time - I prefer cats who are socialized from birth and love people - I don't have the time to train and dedicate to teaching a dog how to act around people. So I don't own one.

The letter you linked to? The author clearly spends a TON of time training her pit, and socializing him or her, and is obviously a very responsible dog owner. The problem is, I don't know by looking at a dog which type of owner they are: the responsible kind, or the highly irresponsible kind who leave their dog at home alone for 40+ hours/week and then don't spend the rest of time teaching it or working with it. And as far as the statistics? Well, there weren't that many and they certainly didn't tell us that much about the breed. It's mostly an opinion piece by a responsible pit owner who probably thinks that ill trained pits can be re-trained which isn't always true. Its not true of most breeds that a dog who has been ill socialized can be retrained - its just not. There are many dogs up for adoption that the shelters say need to go a home with no children where they will be the only dog. That doesn't sound like a dog who is going to be very friendly, and I don't want to be around dogs who aren't friendly.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

the problem with pit bulls is many times once it bites the first time it is too late.


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## tooraloora (Oct 15, 2010)

I would think nothing of a pitt bull moving into the building. If he showed signs of aggression or if I had reason to believe the neighbors were mistreating him I would be concerned, but no more than I would be with any other large breed in similar circumstances. If they are fostering until they find him a permanent home, it could take some time as pitt bulls are very difficult to place due to their unfortunate reputation. I'd likely just have a chat with the neighbors about his history and quirks and give my little ones a refresher on doggy manners (basically everything Maedze said above).


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I agree, and want to say again that I am not against pit bulls.

And, I also want to say again that, yes, gsd, border collie, or any other large working dog, bred to be energetic and mentally stimulated, MUST be. You have had good luck with the gsd breed because it has been well treated. You can't take a dog like that and put it in an apartment and expect everything to go well if you are not going to put the time into that it needs.

And, yes, other dogs can be aggressive. In fact, ALL dogs can be aggressive, which is why understanding the breed, and the limitations of training, etc, are important. But, it is true that a golden is happy to hang out under my deck, and thinks its stuck when it gets its leash around its dog bowl. My gsd/border collie, not so much. That dog would break or chew through the line before it gave up. My golden/lab sees a squirrel and says good morning. The other dog sits down and drools...but only because I carefully taught him over and over and over that the response to stimuli is to sit. A golden can go bad, but the breed itself is gentler and easier going.

So, again, it comes back down to ownership. And a pit bull whining alone in an apartment all day is not good ownership.

OP, you should be concerned, and at the very least, keep your child away from this dog, no matter how friendly it seems.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

If they're not supposed to have pets, then they're not supposed to have pets. No matter what kind of pet it is. Pet policies are not JUST about them having a pet but about you being allowed to live in a pet free building, which is what you signed on for. If that's the case, you're well within your rights to call the owner or property manager and let them know there's a pet, it may be a nice pet but it's a NOISY pet and it's disturbing your family, and your lease should be protecting you from that.

I would go directly to the owner or property manager. That's the beauty of renting, it's not your job to enforce the rules. I would stress that while the owner may be allowed to bend the lease, YOUR LEASE guarantees YOU a pet free building and this is one of the reasons you chose to live there.

I am a pet person. I love dogs. Love. I have one, he's part of our family. I have very little tolerance for pet people who break and bend the rules, they make it much harder on the rest of us.


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
> 
> If they're not supposed to have pets, then they're not supposed to have pets. No matter what kind of pet it is. Pet policies are not JUST about them having a pet but about you being allowed to live in a pet free building, which is what you signed on for. If that's the case, you're well within your rights to call the owner or property manager and let them know there's a pet, it may be a nice pet but it's a NOISY pet and it's disturbing your family, and your lease should be protecting you from that.
> 
> ...


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Pitt bull bites do not lock. That is an old wive's tale. And a pitt bull bite is no more dangerous than any other large breed dog bite.

As for German Shepherds, they are high energy dogs that crave structure, a well-organized pack, authority from a clearly delineated alpha, and lots, and lots of exercise. They are also incredibly affectionate, loyal, fun and good with kids.....and all of those things are true of pitts as well. AND LABS!


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just1More*
> 
> I agree that it's about the owner, BUT, there are breed differences. I got a lab mix after having a border collie/gsd mix, and the difference is HUGE. It's not just those two dogs, either. I've met quite a few, and breed tendencies absolutly exist. A golden retriever needs loving and compainionship, but other than drool and jumping, you can mostly ignore all training/walking/etc, and get away with it just fine. A german shepherd (or any other fighting or working dog) needs constant training, mental stimulation, and exercise. Slipping on its behavior instruction for even a short time can have disasterous consequences. Those are very hands on dogs. They are bred to be. I mean, that is the reason for different kinds of dogs...they are used for different things. Having a bull fighting dog cooped up in an apartment is a very bad idea. Did you know that pit bulls were often called "nanny dogs", and protected the children? They are very loyal. But...they still need a lot of attention and training.
> 
> ...


Statistics to back up your statement please. Because, frankly, I think you pulled the bolded out of thin air with absolutely no proof beyond your thoughts. And from the statements you made in this post that are incorrect (especially about goldens and german shepherds) I'm not sure your thoughts on dog breeds are all that accurate. This thread does not need any more false truths about dogs in it.

If you want to provide the relevant data to back up your statements I will be happy to reconsider my position on the topic.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I do recall reading from a reputable source that labs are the number 1 source of American bites, but it was a while back, and I am not invested enough in this debate to google, LOL.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> I do recall reading from a reputable source that labs are the number 1 source of American bites, but it was a while back, and I am not invested enough in this debate to google, LOL.


Ditto.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
> 
> And from the statements you made in this post that are incorrect (especially about goldens and german shepherds) I'm not sure your thoughts on dog breeds are all that accurate.


Which?

And, I really don't care to argue.

However, for summation and clarification, the points I intended to make were as follows:

1. That I agree that the issue is dog ownership.

2. That a lesser energy breed will afford more room for error in responsible dog ownership. My thoughts about goldens and gsds were, as I said, from my reading and my experience, which I said was limited. I still firmly believe that a golden is way less work than a gsd, or even more so, a border collie. Why do they have huge lists about which breed will work best for your family? Because breeds, in general, have characteristics that tend one way or another.

3. That a dog, no matter the breed, not having its individual needs met, can and will go bonkers. I cannot believe that a working dog, not exercised and stimulated sufficiently, will not have issues. I will concede that many of the gsds in America, for example, are not championship dogs, and have muted characteristics. That does lean toward a broader personality, and less drive, than much of the reading I have done indicates. The point remains...a dog left to himself will likely get into trouble, and with a working dog, quicker than others.

And, most importantly to the OP:

4. That if you are uncertain of a dog, with an uncertain background, and an uncertain level of responsible ownership, you ought to look into ways of communicating to a dog. The purpose being to avoid encouraging aggression. Many of the common ways people respond to dogs actually increase aggression.

5. That there is no way I would allow said dog near my children without a lot of assurances. And yes, that goes for all breeds. But again, a breed with exercise needs unmet, is more of a danger than not.

I'm happy to read anything you have to offer, but I don't intend to come back to debate.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

Regardless of breed, if a dog moved into an apartment building without permission from the landlords, and if that dog was disturbing my family with barking and whining I would absolutely report them to the management with a complaint.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just1More*
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> I do recall reading from a reputable source that labs are the number 1 source of American bites, but it was a while back, and I am not invested enough in this debate to google, LOL.












So you both feel comfortable making factual statements as long as you don't, oh, have to backup those "facts." Good to know. Thanks for contributing your opinions to the topic.

Have a good night ladies. And remember, everything you read on the internet isn't true.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

I would immediately call the management if someone moved a pet into my pet-free building. The fact that it was a pit bull would have made me react even faster. Pit bulls may or may not be more vicous than other dogs but in my area they are certainly favored by people who are and those people often choose to train those dogs to be more vicious.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Now, now, I really don't think that level of rudeness is necessary. We're all having a nice conversation here. I'm sure if you're concerned about itt, you're just as capable of using the same google as the rest of us.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thursday2 (Jun 20, 2009)

A quick google search because I've heard the lab statistic before myself:

A CDC study over a 20-year period ending 1998 (so already almost 15 years old) that only looked at fatalities:

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

A highlight from the text about bias:

"First, the human DBRF reported here are like-ly underestimated; prior work suggests the approachwe used identifies only 74% of actual cases.1,2Second,to the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more news-worthy than those by other breeds, our methods mayhave resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalitiesby breed. Third, because identification of a dog's breedmay be subjective (even experts may disagree on thebreed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentiallyascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression.Fourth, it is not clear how to count attacks by cross-bred dogs. Ignoring these data underestimates breedinvolvement (29% of attacking dogs were crossbreddogs), whereas including them permits a single dog tobe counted more than once. "

This essentially says what a lot of anti-BSL people argue: people who think pit bulls are dangerous tend to see all dangerous dogs as pitbulls, and therefore report them as such in the case of a bite even when they don't know the breed. Even breeders sometimes disagree on a breed. Also, crossbred dogs are often mislabeled or counted twice. Even the study differentiates purebred Rottweilers, purebred Labradors, and purebred "Pit Bull types," which is obviously going to end up lumping a bunch of similar structured or similar-looking dogs together regardless of actual breed.

The conclusion from the study:

*Conclusions*-Although fatal attacks on humansappear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-typedogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite andcause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficultiesinherent in determining a dog's breed with certainty,enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises con-stitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks representa small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and,therefore, should not be the primary factor drivingpublic policy concerning dangerous dogs.

After this study, the CDC stopped tracking breeds in dog bite attacks because 1) the majority of attacks were in the home of the dog owner and not a public health issue 2) breed reporting was too unreliable to be helpful (see bias above) and 3) communities started banning breeds in a panic, which wasn't the point.

As far as I can find regarding the labrador statistic, it's not a statistic because breeds haven't been tracked in almost 15 years, but the statement is considered a logical conclusion by anti-BSL people because almost 3/4 of dog attacks occur in the home of the owner, and labs or lab mixes are the #1 dog in America. Therefore it stands to reason that the most populous dog is bound, by sheer numbers, to have more bites under his belt than a less populous dog. Obviously, one would have to know the exact numbers to prove that true, and those numbers don't exist, but that's where it comes from.

So according to the CDC, as of the '80s and '90s, Rotties and pit-bull types killed more, but other dogs probably bit more - and that, by the way, isn't taking into account, in my opinion, that Rotties and pit-bull types are the two breeds owned by the Bloods and Crips, among other gangs around the country I'm sure, or that they're often used as guard dogs. These are just fatal dog bites, no other criteria.

So if a pit bull moved in upstairs? As long as my neighbors weren't gang-bangers I wouldn't be that worried. I would, however, for peace in the building's sake, advise talking to the neighbor if you don't think pets are allowed before ratting them out to the landlord. Yes, your lease provides for a no-pet apartment, but THEIR lease may have different criteria, or they may have made arrangements with the landlord since they're fostering, or they may simply appreciate the heads-up and find the dog a new home rather than get evicted. If I had agreed to foster a dog, even if it was illegal, I'd be super pissed if somebody told on me - yes, they're probably in the wrong, but if it were me, I would make my downstairs neighbor's life a living hell from then on just out of petty spite. Or I would have before I had kids and realized how AGONIZING it is to have them woken by a barking dog - our neighbors have 2 that NEVER. SHUT. UP. So I sympathize, but I'd handle it internally first.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

The problem with shelter dogs or foster dogs is that a lot of the time, you have NO IDEA about the dog's previous history in terms of socialization and training. And pet owners trying to re-home their pet will lie, lie, lie about their dog's temperament to get someone nice to take them. I have plenty of experience as a shelter worker. I LOVE pitbulls and I have one, but shelter dogs are worth being cautious of, to say the least. Someone didn't want that dog for a reason. Maybe it's just their life changed and they no longer have time for it, but often it is because of behavior problems that are a direct result of lack of proper training as a puppy.

I bought my pit as a weanling puppy, pick of the litter. I chose her for her mild, quiet personality. I raised her with my kids - she's been around kids of all ages - babies, toddlers, etc. Every meal she had her first year of life, someone sat with their hands in her food bowl (either me or my kids). I took her to puppy training classes, my friends houses to play with other dogs and people, and the dog park at least once a week after she had all her shots. She is almost two years old now, and is a DREAM! All the training and socializing has paid off in a big way. She's 'bomb-proof' to screeching wild kids climbing on her, hugging her. She's friendly to other dogs. I am her 'mom' or 'security blanket' - if she is unsure of a situation, she looks to me for instructions. She likes being told what to do. I've never met another dog who was so eager to please its master. Several weeks ago she got nipped pretty bad by a greyhound at the dog park. She ran straight to me and laid down between my legs. She just wanted to go home. I can absolutely trust this dog. She is the result of a great inherent personality and proper training and socialization.

And there is no 'locking mechanism' in a pitbull's jaws.

Look up Sharky the pitbull on YouTube. Another example of a pit with a beautiful personality.

But in the OP's situation, the problem is tenants having a pet when they are not allowed to. It's worth reporting to the management.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarthRootsStarSoul*
> 
> I bought my pit as a weanling puppy, pick of the litter. I chose her for her mild, quiet personality. I raised her with my kids - she's been around kids of all ages - babies, toddlers, etc. Every meal she had her first year of life, someone sat with their hands in her food bowl (either me or my kids). I took her to puppy training classes, my friends houses to play with other dogs and people, and the dog park at least once a week after she had all her shots. She is almost two years old now, and is a DREAM! All the training and socializing has paid off in a big way. She's 'bomb-proof' to screeching wild kids climbing on her, hugging her. She's friendly to other dogs. I am her 'mom' or 'security blanket' - if she is unsure of a situation, she looks to me for instructions. She likes being told what to do. I've never met another dog who was so eager to please its master. Several weeks ago she got nipped pretty bad by a greyhound at the dog park. She ran straight to me and laid down between my legs. She just wanted to go home. I can absolutely trust this dog. She is the result of a great inherent personality and proper training and socialization.


But still, I cannot tell what type of dog owner you are by looking at your dog. I would not want her to approach me, no matter how sweet she is, because I don't know her and I don't know you. I cannot tell her from any other pit bull just by looking at her. I know other great pit bull owners (IRL, not you) that seem to think that I should inherently trust their dogs, and that I should just trust that a dog is good natured until the dog shows they aren't. I'm not willing to take that chance though, so I do not approach dogs (of ANY breed), and I do not want dogs approaching me or my ds either.

I also don't own dogs, because while I love dogs that I know and can trust (my aunt and uncles German Shepherd being one that I absolutely adore), I don't have the time to spend with them to train them and properly socialize them. And its impossible for me to tell which dogs have been properly socialized just by looking at them, or by looking at their owners.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

Sounds like you might have had a bad experience. Fair enough. There are dangerous dogs in the world. When my son was less than 2 he was bitten by a 14 pound Pekingese that put a hole all the way through his nose. I had that dog put to sleep. It was a shelter dog that could not be rehabilitated. My son and I harbor no fear of dogs. I would understand if he did though.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

I think you are a very kind and patient person for not calling your landlord sooner.

If I lived in a pet-free building and someone brought in a dog temporary or not and no matter what the breed, I would have reported them, particularly if it was disturbing me and waking up my kids.

I guess that might make me sound heartless and uncaring and like I hate dogs, none of which is true







. But if someone is going to be fostering dogs, they need to find a building that is not pet-free. Some people choose pet-free buildings for a reason.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarthRootsStarSoul*
> 
> Sounds like you might have had a bad experience. Fair enough. There are dangerous dogs in the world. When my son was less than 2 he was bitten by a 14 pound Pekingese that put a hole all the way through his nose. I had that dog put to sleep. It was a shelter dog that could not be rehabilitated. My son and I harbor no fear of dogs. I would understand if he did though.


I'm not afraid of dogs, I just don't want random ones allowed to approach me and my son, especially pit bulls - they have STRONG POWERFUL jaws that do seerious damage when they bite. And I don't care if their jaws don't lock - when they DO bite, they have to be killed to get them off of someone. I'm not willing to take that risk with my life or my childs. I really hope you don't just think its OK for your dog to approach random people on the street or in the park. I really don't understand why dog owners don't get that people don't always want to be approached by random animals that we know nothing about.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Responsible pet owners have their dogs on leash unless it is a clearly delineated leash-free place (i.e., your own back yard, a dog park, etc.), and never allow them to 'approach' a human unless the interaction is requested by the human and controlled by the owners.

Pitt bulls have strong jaws, but again, so do all other large breed dogs. It is not a unique trait.

The only serious dog bite I ever got was as a 12 or 13 year old girl when I was riding my bike past a neighbor's house and their dog (I don't recall the breed but it was a purebred small dog), ran up silently by me and sank its teeth through my jeans, skin and into the muscle of my calf as I rode by.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Pitt bulls have strong jaws, but again, so do all other large breed dogs. It is not a unique trait.


Their jaws are actually pretty darn unique. I grew up with a Lab/Visla mix, and while he was strong, his jaw was nothing like a pit bulls. He could catch birds and not harm them, and routinely took our socks off without his teeth. A pit bull has a jaw that is large (and they aren't exactly a "large" breed - many breeds are generally bigger than pits) for their size, and they don't let go. I would say that most dogs could be called off by their owners, or removed by someone who would then be able to avoid harm - I really don't think the same is true for pit bulls.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

That is definitely a misconception.


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## Virginia Mom (Feb 17, 2006)

Putting the breed of dog aside.....(because we've all been reading heated responses)....you originally mentioned that the neighbor volunteered in a shelter, and brought the dog home---for a temporary situation.........I'd wonder what brought the dog to the shelter to begin with..............it used to be that shelters would 'screen/test dogs' especially certain breeds (again, not mentioning a specific breed) to see if they would respond in a safe manner to kids, adults, and other animals........Was this done? or did you neighbor remove the dog before it was screened? Just curious. I'm a dog owner...and respect everyone else's views........but I'm also a mom.........If the breed of the dog is a big concern to you, check with your local animal control department......some city ordinances do not allow this type of breed in certain city limits/areas. Good Luck.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> That is definitely a misconception.


Sources please? The only sites that say this that I can find are active pit bull advocates - obviously they are going to portray them in the best light possible. Every other site doesn't not say that.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I've never feared a dog. I've only feared the owners of a dog. I have a beagle. Who will attack everyone he doesn't know. For over 12 years I've had to work with him to calm him down. I got him at 2 and the damage was done. Had I realized that this beagle was so mean I would not have brought him home. He was left in a kennel and never socialized. I thought he was cute and looked so sweet. But heck no he was HORRIBLE! Now that he's older and can't smell or see he's the sweetest dog on this earth. But until then, had I not been vigilant he could have really hurt someone. And whose afraid of a beagle...

I would not care if it was a pit I would only care that they brought the dog to a place with a shared yard. Granted she said they don't let the dog out in the yard... I would still want to make sure it didn't happen. By the way I'm afraid of Chows... good owner or not!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I would be super peeved about the noisy, waking up kid stuff and I would talk to the people about that and how long the dog was staying. I would also want to know if the dog had been temperament tested and how that went and what work were they doing with the dog to make sure it was socialized to children...in case it ever did get out.

I have two rescue pits who are five years old. My male I've had since he was 10 months old and my female I've only had for 2 months. The male had been in a home, was fixed early and knew basic commands. The female was loose in San Antonio and emaciated nursing her umpteenth litter. She knew no commands at all and it seems she may have always been a stray or maybe yard dog. It's possible she was used as a breeding dog by someone who didn't treat her as a pet. They are both very sweet and people oriented. My male is used to treats and being handed and has that soft mouth common to bird dogs. The female bit the crap out of my hand when I was handing out meat the other day. She doesn't know how to take a treat...so I will be working in that. The whole line that it's all about the owner doesn't fly for me. Pits are incredibly resilient and can withstand horrible abuse without losing their love of people. They are also breed incredibly irresponsibly now and you can have one that everything was right for and they are wired wrong and unfixable. They are one of the friendlier (to people not other dogs) breeds but if they are people aggressive (unacceptable breed trait and the dog should be put down IMO) or have a strong prey drive and aren't socialized to children they are very dangerous. Their jaws don't lock but they are very muscular and it may take a break stick (like a broom handle) to get them to let go. I would NEVER adopt from a breeder and I really think there should not be any breeding for a long time. There are way too many pits and they are being breed for looks vs temperament now a lot of the time. A pit should not ever ever weigh 90+ pounds.

I think all dogs should be temperament tested and landlords should only allow dogs that do well. It's also important to note that they reach adulthood later than small breeds and can change significantly between 2 and 3. My male never raised his leg until almost 3 and was great at the dog park until a little after 2. I would never take him now as he may be dominate aggressive with other dogs. They become senior sometime 8-10 and can become senile and have behavior changes. I would give any pit the same cautiousness I have for any animal that could kill me. Lots of dogs have the ability to kill me and I am cautious of all of them.


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Sources please? The only sites that say this that I can find are active pit bull advocates - obviously they are going to portray them in the best light possible. Every other site doesn't not say that.


"Dr. Brisbin, as well as the other experts, testified that pit bulls do not have locking jaws. Based on actual dog dissections and measurement of their skulls, the evidence demonstrated that pit bull jaw muscles and bone structure are the same as other similarly sized dogs. No evidence was presented to demonstrate that a pit bull's bite is any stronger than other dogs of its size and build."

Click here.

You can read about Dr. Brisbin's qualifications through a Google search. I won't be doing that one for you.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Hmm, how long is it acceptable to leave a dog home alone?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> But still, I cannot tell what type of dog owner you are by looking at your dog. I would not want her to approach me, no matter how sweet she is, because I don't know her and I don't know you. *I cannot tell her from any other pit bull just by looking at her.* I know other great pit bull owners (IRL, not you) that seem to think that I should inherently trust their dogs, and that I should just trust that a dog is good natured until the dog shows they aren't. I'm not willing to take that chance though, so I do not approach dogs (of ANY breed), and I do not want dogs approaching me or my ds either.
> 
> I also don't own dogs, because while I love dogs that I know and can trust (my aunt and uncles German Shepherd being one that I absolutely adore), I don't have the time to spend with them to train them and properly socialize them. *And its impossible for me to tell which dogs have been properly socialized just by looking at them*, or by looking at their owners.


Well, you shouldn't trust a strange dog any more than you should trust a strange human, certainly. But you not trusting dogs doesn't mean your neighbors shouldn't be allowed to have a dog in their home, which is what the OP is talking about....

Re: the bolded. From my experience, it's possible to tell a lot about a dog's behavior by looking at her. They tend to offer some pretty distinct visual hints about imminent behavior.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Hmm, how long is it acceptable to leave a dog home alone?
> 
> ...


I can see that there would be visual hints about *imminent* behavior. Imminent means that the behavior is happening immediately following that behavior. Once that visual hint starts, it very well may be too late to prevent the behavior.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Exactly SSM.

I wonder what the mothers of the dead or disfigured children thought of the pit bulls in their neighborhoods. I wonder if they thought they were nice dogs.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

There are always warning signs before a dog attack. The problem is people don't recognize or ignore the dog's red-flag behaviors. The red flags can be present for years before a bite happens.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

In one of the cases I am most familiar with the child was in a park and a pit bull got loose and attacked the child. It all happened really fast.

The other it was family dogs and the child escaped his bedroom out a window into the yard. the dogs packed up and killed him. Both of these attacks happened in the last two years.

Very very sad.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
> *Their jaws don't lock but they are very muscular and it may take a break stick (like a broom handle) to get them to let go.* I would NEVER adopt from a breeder and I really think there should not be any breeding for a long time. There are way too many pits and they are being breed for looks vs temperament now a lot of the time. A pit should not ever ever weigh 90+ pounds.


A 90lb pit?? Holy crap, you're right, that should never ever happen. How big are they usually? From what I have seen they appear to be mostly medium sized dogs, with huge jaws.

*Maedze* - See the bolded. Seriously?? A dog who requires a BREAK STICK to get them to let go of someone or something that they are biting should not be considered somewhat dangerous?? A break stick. Meaning, you have to jam a stick into their mouth and pry their mouth open. As a random person walking down the street should I be carrying one just in case some irresponsible dog owner (or someone who swears that their precious rescue would never ever in a million years bite ANYONE ever) is walking a dog that attacks me or my kid? No thank you. I don't like pits, and I agree with PoppyMama that they should not be bred, although unlike her I would never own one. And I would certainly have one put down if they bit me while I was trying to feed them.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarthRootsStarSoul*
> 
> There are always warning signs before a dog attack. The *problem is people don't recognize* or ignore the dog's red-flag behaviors. The red flags can be present for years before a bite happens.


I'm NOT A DOG OWNER. I should NOT be required to recognize warning signs that a dog is going to attack me! That is the OWNERS responsibility. If they can't keep their dogs under control maybe they should face criminal prosecution for putting NON DOG OWNERS at risk. I don't own a dog, nor do I want to own a dog, and I should not be responsible for making sure someone elses dog doesn't harm me. I also don't approach dogs, and am not overly fond of people allowing their dogs to approach me without my permission (just as I would get permission to approach a dog). Sure, sometimes I pass dogs on the sidewalk, and most of the time owners are conscious of their animal and keep them on a short leash so that they don't approach, but all owners should do that. I especially hate it when owners allow their gigantic dogs to approach my son when we are walking on the sidewalk - he doesn't like dog slobber, and I don't want some huge dog knocking him down.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
> I would give any pit the same cautiousness I have for any animal that could kill me. Lots of dogs have the ability to kill me and I am cautious of all of them.


Like a cougar???


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> I'm NOT A DOG OWNER. I should NOT be required to recognize warning signs that a dog is going to attack me! That is the OWNERS responsibility. If they can't keep their dogs under control maybe they should face criminal prosecution for putting NON DOG OWNERS at risk. I don't own a dog, nor do I want to own a dog, and I should not be responsible for making sure someone elses dog doesn't harm me. I also don't approach dogs, and am not overly fond of people allowing their dogs to approach me without my permission (just as I would get permission to approach a dog). Sure, sometimes I pass dogs on the sidewalk, and most of the time owners are conscious of their animal and keep them on a short leash so that they don't approach, but all owners should do that. I especially hate it when owners allow their gigantic dogs to approach my son when we are walking on the sidewalk - he doesn't like dog slobber, and I don't want some huge dog knocking him down.


I agree. People should have aggressive dogs put to sleep. I've done it.

I keep my dog on a leash for walks. Most places have leash laws. One time she pulled the leash out of my hand and ran half a block. She froze when she realized I was so far behind and waited for me to catch up. Haha. The one place I let her off to run and play is remote. She likes to swim in the river.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Dogs can become very changed in a pack. I wouldn't trust a pack of dogs and wouldn't have one mingling with my kids. My two don't sleep together, are separated when were out of the house and aren't aloud outside alone with the kids together. This has nothing to do with their individual behavior and is good practice for all dogs. Break sticks are used with pits because pits are breed to be sticktuitive and aren't used with other breeds because you are likely to get bit using it with other breeds not because it's easy to get other powerful dogs to stop attacking. I want a moratorium on breeding pits because of the overpopulation and the number being killed as well as the irresponsible way theyre being. Rees not because they aren't wonderful dogs. I am so spoiled by how tolerant they are with kids that I doubt I will ever have another breed. They have a very high pain tolerance and are a playmate a living room floor buddy.

SSM- i really can't believe you would put a dog down because they had no practice taking treats and didn't know how to get it without biting down. Warning signs of human aggression and I will take my beloved pets out and Lenny them but let's not get hysterical here.

I feel for people in areas with loose dogs. I don't live in one and I'm super paranoid about mine getting out. If there were loose dogs around I would be calling rescues then animal control and carrying a gun.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

The owners of the dogs in the one at the park is in a lot of trouble. This dog that attacked was a pet of a adult woman from what I understand.


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## DoubleDouble (Oct 26, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Cyllya* 


> From my experience, it's possible to tell a lot about a dog's behavior by looking at her. They tend to offer some pretty distinct visual hints about imminent behavior.


We had a certified service dog (that had special training and exams.) I grew up with working dogs.

And I still have difficulties in telling a dog's intentions sometimes. It should not be my job. And, even if I see a hint about imminent aggressive behavior, and I forgot my tire iron in the other purse at home, what do I do?

Besides, not everyone can even read open hints about people's behavior (Asperger's comes to mind). And now we have to be dog whisperers, too?

PS. "Locking jaws" - if a jaw requires a bar to pry it open, I'd say "locking" is the right word. Not scientifically correct, but sound sense correct. It's not the jaw that locks, it's the dog that locks it and does not wish to open it. But it is locked all the same, end of story. If it did not "lock", it could be open with a push of a pinkie finger or a command, right?


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Well then I guess a great number of dogs have locking jaws including many small dogs. The break stick was designed to separate two fighting dogs without pulling and increasing injury. It's not used with other breeds because it's riskier for the person doing it.

Cougars, uhm yeah, irrationally afraid of them considering how unlikely I am to be attacked by one. Not sure what that has to do with this though.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I think you have a very strong case of 'delusional fear outweighing capability for rational thought' here.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> A 90lb pit?? Holy crap, you're right, that should never ever happen. How big are they usually? From what I have seen they appear to be mostly medium sized dogs, with huge jaws.
> 
> *Maedze* - See the bolded. Seriously?? A dog who requires a BREAK STICK to get them to let go of someone or something that they are biting should not be considered somewhat dangerous?? A break stick. Meaning, you have to jam a stick into their mouth and pry their mouth open. As a random person walking down the street should I be carrying one just in case some irresponsible dog owner (or someone who swears that their precious rescue would never ever in a million years bite ANYONE ever) is walking a dog that attacks me or my kid? No thank you. I don't like pits, and I agree with PoppyMama that they should not be bred, although unlike her I would never own one. And I would certainly have one put down if they bit me while I was trying to feed them.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

In my neighborhood you are way more likely to be attacked by a pit bull. They are bred around here- with breeds such as Gotti.


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## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

Quote:


> So my questions are: How uncomfortable would you feel with a pitbull in your building?
> 
> I am only comfortable when there is a pitbull in my home I admit I'm biased as I've owned a couple of wonderful pitbulls over the years.
> 
> ...


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## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyllya*
> 
> Hmm, how long is it acceptable to leave a dog home alone?


An adult dog should be able to be left alone for up to ten hours at a time. Sorry but dog owners, especially single mom dog owners, need to have full time jobs too. My dog would spend her day sleeping on the couch and getting up to bark at the mailman. She had a toybox full of ropes and chews that I would pour on the floor each morning and then put away when my daughter and I came home for the day. When my dog was younger and I had a roomate they would take her out for a walk mid day.


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## Ola_ (Sep 5, 2008)

Wow, this sure has gotten passionate! I'll stay out of the (various) debates but will share my thoughts on the OP's situation:

First, I'm a dog owner and do not have a problem with pitbulls. I do however have a problem with dogs who are aggressive and/or owners who don't take safety precautions. That said, I would speak to the neighbours and let them know the issues you are having (mainly the whining it sounds like). From your post they sound like they are trying to be considerate of you, since you said the dog doesn't bark and they don't take him/her into the shared yard (which I would appreciate in your position since it means no dog pee/poop in your child's play area and the dog is getting better exercise on walks to help him be calmer, also a sign of a good owner). I would guess since it's a new-to-them dog and you live in an apartment that they are probably crating the dog while they are away or confining him in some way to keep him safe from household hazards and prevent any property damage. Again, another sign of a responsible owner! Let them know about the whining (they may honestly not be aware of it or may be working on it) and ask them if they can move the dog to a different room in the meantime so that it doesn't disturb your child's sleep. Also, I'd consider a white noise machine (we use a small fan for DD) to block the noise if the walls are so thin that you can hear it no matter where the dog is.

At this point it doesn't sound to me like you have any cause for concern. The dog is supervised, exercised, and seems well cared for. As for how long you can leave a dog home alone for, when DH and I were working out of the home our dogs were alone for 8-10 hrs. This is not an issue for a healthy dog (not a puppy though usually) that is accustomed to it. With sufficient exercise and potty breaks before/after they really mostly snooze the day away. That's what they do while we are home (me with DD and DH is WAH), their potty breaks and meals are at the same time as they were then just out of habit.

Hopefully with a friendly chat with the neighbour you can make this less of an issue for you and everyone can be happy.


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## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

Any dog can be taught to have a soft mouth. A retrieving grip is different than an attack grip. My first pit bull that I had as a teen figured out how to carry water balloons without popping them. She loved carrying and catching things but was horribly afraid of water so she managed to figure out how to play with waterballoons without getting wet. Her second passion was dangling from a tire haning in a tree so I'm pretty sure her jaws were still strong.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mom31*
> 
> In my neighborhood you are way more likely to be attacked by a pit bull. They are bred around here- with breeds such as Gotti.


I really feel for people who live in areas that have exploded with pitbull breeding. I also feel for the dogs who also have no choice in the matter. They are dogs who were breed to be with their people not to live in packs of their own kind. I would be nervous, just as I would be nervous if so many morons were breeding any powerful dog.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamayogibear*
> 
> Or would you go directly to the landlords?
> 
> Nope I'm not that kind of gal.


That kind of gal? What kind would that be?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> I think you have a very strong case of 'delusional fear outweighing capability for rational thought' here.


Delusional? Um...no. Now you're just being nasty because I don't agree that pit bulls are wonderful amazing sweet dogs. I don't like them. I don't want one, and I don't care to be around them. Particularly when I have my young son with me.

Mostly I like dogs (but only when I know them, or they are owned by someone I know). I don't like being approached by random dogs, which I don't think is so terrible, and I'm not interested in being around dogs that when they do bite, a stick is required to get them to let go. I don't know why thats so difficult for you to understand.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Case in point I went out on my front porch this morning and there was a man walking a pit bull with a rope. Not a leash I white rope. He was very big and white. We live in front of the housing project for what its worth- but they are all over town.

I also want to say I once cleaned for a lady whose husband was a pharmacist who had 4 pit bulls all at the same time.

that was scary to me.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Uh... I just saw a vato walking a chiuaua... He he he! He looked awesome!

Pits can be decent. Chows are evil. My beagle will eat anyone. And all dogs have a tendency to be assholes. Pits have a bad reputation. And if the owners want the reputation changed they need to change. Here most dogs are kept outside, it's cultural. And quite a few are kept for Protection also cultural.

ALL DOGS CAN BE BAD! I've been bitten by a poodle and a rat terrier. My Beagle attacked a jogger and a stupid kid that would not listed to me when I told him not to pet my dog. Still put his hand in my car and pet my dog... No these dogs didn't kill anyone, but they still were aggressive.

The point is they should not have brought the dog in a housing complex that does not allow them. They should have heeded and respected their lease. If the OP doesn't turn them in someone else will. They have a shared yard and who know, maybe they'll get a case of the lazies and let the dog out one day in the yard and OP won't know.

It's a shared yard! In a no pet complex! How could that even be debated?


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## jess in hawaii (Oct 13, 2011)




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## mamayogibear (May 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> That kind of gal? What kind would that be?


I don't run to the authorites when I have issues with someone. Instead I take a more direct approach and try to communicate my concerns about the issue. I do not like it when people do things behind my back and would rather be confonted than find out about a problem from a third party.

In this instance I would approach the dog owner regarding the whining and suggest they have someone walk the dog while they are at work. I would also mention to the person that I was under the impression that the building was no-pet (some landlords have pet addendums to leases) and that they could get evicted if the landlord chose to inforce that.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Hon, it's pretty clear that you have a paranoia, and paranoia isn't rational. You don't need a bite stick. It's fine not to want to be approached by strange dog. I don't care to either. But to fly off the handle and make silly evaluations that are simply inaccurate doesn't add credence to your point of view. Not liking dogs is not the same thing as 'particular kinds of dogs are bad'.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Delusional? Um...no. Now you're just being nasty because I don't agree that pit bulls are wonderful amazing sweet dogs. I don't like them. I don't want one, and I don't care to be around them. Particularly when I have my young son with me.
> 
> Mostly I like dogs (but only when I know them, or they are owned by someone I know). I don't like being approached by random dogs, which I don't think is so terrible, and I'm not interested in being around dogs that when they do bite, a stick is required to get them to let go. I don't know why thats so difficult for you to understand.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *mamayogibear*
> 
> I don't run to the authorites when I have issues with someone. Instead I take a more direct approach and try to communicate my concerns about the issue. I do not like it when people do things behind my back and would rather be confonted than find out about a problem from a third party.


Well that sort of skirted the question, but I don't think many of us automatically "run to the authorities" when we have issues with someone. I've just found your method to be generally ineffective when it comes to dog owners, so I don't do things that I've found don't work.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

WOW really? I mean really? I take a break from this thread to yobogoya and it's turned into something ugly.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Maedze*
> 
> Hon, it's pretty clear that you have a paranoia, and paranoia isn't rational. You don't need a bite stick. It's fine not to want to be approached by strange dog. I don't care to either. But to fly off the handle and make silly evaluations that are simply inaccurate doesn't add credence to your point of view. Not liking dogs is not the same thing as 'particular kinds of dogs are bad'.


Don't be condescending. It's rude, and has no place here. I'm not paranoid - I just hate pit bulls. Just like some people hate cats. I also didn't fly off the handle. I just hate pit bulls. They are unpredictable.


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## BellaW (Jan 26, 2012)

I am a pit mommy and I understand your fears and worries of having one close to your children. I Love my dogs and I know they wouldn't hurt anyone, but we raised them from pups with kids in the house so my dogs are very well behaved and used to kids being loud and climbing all over them. Some pits are amazing around adults and sketchy around children. Even the best dogs in the world will have a tendency to turn on anyone for any reason, unfortunately the only ones that make the news are pitbulls. If you as a parent feel that your children's safety may be at risk then you can call and have them removed, if you do that just remember to call a no kill shelter please, They won't keep Pit's longer then a week (in some states, sometimes only a few days) before they euthanize them. Your family and children come first without a doubt... So many people forget that it doesn't matter if the Pit is the sweetest dog ever or the meanest, since it is a type of breed they will kill it if no one claims it or adopts it right away.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Don't be condescending. It's rude, and has no place here. I'm not paranoid - I just hate pit bulls. Just like some people hate cats. I also didn't fly off the handle. I just hate pit bulls. They are unpredictable.


 I'd have to say I think you are paranoid too.


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## AbbyGrant (Jan 12, 2012)

I don't see anything "paranoid" or irrational about being suspicious of a particular type of dog that has the physical capability of killing people, especially small children, and statistically speaking is more likely to do so than most other types of dogs.







Unless the suspicion was negatively affecting someone's life (like she wouldn't leave her house for fear of running into a Pit Bull or Rottweiler or whatever), I really don't see this as a problem and actually think some good could come of it.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AbbyGrant*
> 
> I don't see anything "paranoid" or irrational about being suspicious of a particular type of dog that has the physical capability of killing people, especially small children, and statistically speaking is more likely to do so than most other types of dogs.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I still don't understand why people think I should be totally cool with strange LARGE or pit bull dogs approaching me and my young son while we are out and about. I get that those of you on THIS thread are probably good dog owners (but one of you at least has had a pit bull actually bite you and has not gotten rid of it), but I don't know how good a dog owner is just by looking at them. How am I supposed to tell? Are there certain visible traits that dog owners have that would tell me if they are responsible or not?

I like dogs for the most part, I'm just careful about dogs that I do not know personally (of ALL BREEDS), or whose owners I do not know personally. Pit Bulls are known for being unpredictable, and when they do bite, they usually cause severe injury - unlike a toy poodle who might break the skin, but who has little to no hope of killing or maiming someone (but really, I don't want to get bitten by ANY dog, nor do I want my son to get bitten by ANY dog). FWIW, my son doesn't mind dogs, but he doesn't like dogs coming up to him either because the big ones are bigger than he is and it makes him nervous. If a dog was bigger than me it would make me nervous too.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

Tolerance has gone beyond reason. Sometimes, judgement and caution are healthy.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I think my issue is that people seem to be deliberately obtuse. SSM- why do you think that anyone wants you to be cool with strange dogs coming up to you and your son. You keep saying that and I don't see where anyone has told you you ought to be. You also keep taking things I say and twisting them to support your ideas. I am not going to kill my dog because she hasn't been fed treats and doesn't know how to take them yet without getting fingers. If you seriously think that putting her down for that rather than working with her is appropriate than I do think you're being delusional.

Pits aren't naturally unpredictable they have been mass produced to the point where I think they are 80% of the dog population in some areas (i read that somewhere i have no stats) and people are trying to make protection dogs out of them which goes against their nature. Something needs to be done but BSL is not the answer they will just pick a different breed to trash and I can't imagine the horror if a less people friendly breed got the pit treatment. Dangerous dog laws would be much more easy to enforce and more effective.

OP- sorry this went so far off course. Did you end up talking to your neighbors?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EarthRootsStarSoul*
> 
> There are always warning signs before a dog attack. The problem is people don't recognize or ignore the dog's red-flag behaviors. The red flags can be present for years before a bite happens.


This post seems to be saying that i should be able to recognize behavior indicative of a dog attack (I know that this particular poster agreed that I, not a dog owner, should not be required to know these behavioral warnings - dog owners SHOULD).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
> 
> I would be super peeved about the noisy, waking up kid stuff and I would talk to the people about that and how long the dog was staying. I would also want to know if the dog had been temperament tested and how that went and what work were they doing with the dog to make sure it was socialized to children...in case it ever did get out.
> 
> ...


You said that she BIT THE CRAP OUT OF YOUR HAND. Your words, not mine. If I was giving a dog food, and they BIT THE CRAP OUT OF my hand, yes, they would be put down. What if it had been your CHILD giving food to the dog? And your childs hand had gotten the CRAP bitten out of it? Again, the dog wouldn't live another day. You also said that you have 2 dogs, and the male cannot go to the dog park because he is dominant aggressive with other dogs - so why do you have another? And if he's aggressive with other dogs, he could become aggressive with people. This is why I don't like pit bulls - their owners seem to think that THEIR babies are the exception to the rule. "My dog would NEVER bite a person! He's GREAT with kids! But he can't go to the dog park because he's aggressive towards other dogs, so I got him a friend to keep at home! It's all good, hopefully my kids never get in the middle of them! "

Then again, I am not a dog owner for a reason. I don't want to deal with animals that bite. I'm not interested.

As for temperment testing, I highly doubt your dog would have done well.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

I am shocked by the support of pit bulls. It's insane- I am wondering if these mamas live in upper class neighborhoods- cause here- they are aggressive and not safe animals to have roaming around.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mom31*
> 
> I am shocked by the support of pit bulls. It's insane- I am wondering if these mamas live in upper class neighborhoods- cause here- they are aggressive and not safe animals to have roaming around.


But the thing is it isn't safe to have any dogs roaming a neighborhood loose - danger is not exclusive to pit bulls. Even medium sized dogs can do damage to a human if they are frightened/angry enough.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

but not kill them most likely- at least I have not heard of it like I hear of it around here...


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I do not understand what you are referencing with the first quote.

She bit my hand because she does not know how to take things with a soft mouth not because she is aggressive in any way. My male uses a soft mouth perfectly because he knows that's how it's done. I was trying to explain that soft mouth is not some biological miracle seen only in bird dogs. My kids arent allowed to feed her at this point so it would not have been their fingers. Both of the dogs have been evaluated and are stable, wonderful dogs even though they were raised in very different environments because pits are very often resilient like that. Dog aggression is a completely normal breed trait and has NOTHING to do with human aggression my male is NOT dog aggressive and was dog friendly as a juvenile but became dog tolerant as he entered adulthood, meaning he still enjoys playing but gets very grouchy if other dogs are dominant to him and he will retaliate. My new dog was tested with my current dog and my kids (separately and together) before she came home and was picked partly because she is pretty submissive and very dog friendly. I don't care if you like dogs or not and with your views I'm glad you don't keep dogs.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Yes! Imagine a protection breed being over produced and running in packs. It's a problem but not a problem of the breed.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TCMoulton*
> 
> But the thing is it isn't safe to have any dogs roaming a neighborhood loose - danger is not exclusive to pit bulls. Even medium sized dogs can do damage to a human if they are frightened/angry enough.


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## Love (Jan 17, 2012)

T2009

I understand that you arent big on pets so you probably arent truly knowledgeable about different breeds.(( which is totally fine btw im not judging)) Unless this animal gives you a reason to fear it you should honestly consider it harmless just as you would a golden retriever. Pitts as far as loyalty and human companionship go are ranked at the same level as golden retrievers by the akc. I would believe that nothing you have heard about the breed is true... They are significantly over hyped . If the humans caring for the dog are not fighting it and assuming you do not have a dog on your own i would truly not fear this animal. You should of course be precautious about your children being left unattended with the dog just as you would for any breed but very honestly you have no reason to fear or feel this dog is different than any other breed.

If you have your own dog you should pay extra attention to that though as pitts do have a tendancy to be animal aggresssive,

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

OK, well if we are talking about packs of stray pit bulls roaming loose on the streets, that is a whole different ball of wax than a well-trained, family-raised pit bull. Packs of feral dogs start acting a lot more like wolves than dogs.

And what's with the comment about upper class neighborhoods? No, I live in a small town in Wisconsin. No one makes a lot of money, we all seem to just barely get by. It's too cold here for dogs to live outside unless they are huskies or such. Maybe that's why all the pits around here are so friendly and socialized--they live with their people.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow, I haven't been on in a while & didn't realize this thread continued for so long.

Thank you for all the thoughts & advice -- You all really gave me a lot to think about & a lot of perspective... Yes, I'm not a pet person, so my knowledge is far from complete! But I'm sympathetic.

We spoke to the neighbors (I really didn't want to get them in trouble with the landlords if it was truly a temporary thing). The told us about the dog & it's behavior around people & kids in the neighborhood (on walks, etc.). The neighbor even said she was very conscious of our little guy & always waited for us to enter/exit the building if she heard us & was with the dog. Very considerate. And she said the whining was because they were crate-training (not neglect) to help place the dog, which I can understand. I saw the dog a couple times & it was very obedient, very non-agressive seeming.

And then, the dog is gone. Haven't seen the neighbor since, but I'm hoping it's in a good home.

A good teaching moment for my son -- not to go near strange dogs. And for me to learn about pit bulls & breeds & such from you all. Thanks!


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