# Would you let your child play with an HIV+ child?



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

My recent experience with being kicked out of playgroup really shocked me. I had always expected that, as an adoptive family, and particularly as a transracial adoptive family, we would face discrimination. But I didn't think it would come in the form it did and from those who were supposed to be my friends.

Now what I would like to know is, what are we facing if we are able to adopt the child in Ethiopia whom we sponsor, who is HIV+? Currently, Ethiopia does not allow HIV+ children to be placed for international adoption, but if that rule ever changes, we are first in line to adopt the child we have sponsored for 2 years.

If one of your friends or a fellow playgroup attendee had an HIV+ child, would you allow your child to play with that child?

Namaste!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*

If one of your friends or a fellow playgroup attendee had an HIV+ child, would you allow your child to play with that child?

Namaste!

Of course.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Interesting question:

I do know that I am not allowed to ask if any of my preschool children have HIV. I think that is one of the reasons why we are suppose to use bleach to clean everything and to clean often.

I know young children put anything and everything in their mouths and then share it. They will take ANY bottle or sippy cup left behind (I do not leave these out).

I would love to be perfect and say yes but I nor my husband can because of the above reasons. That said I am 100% sure with my degree in early child education and opening a preschool I will have this concern more in real life then a simple questions on a forum in the internet world. I know I will have to research to understand and come to an understanding with it. Not just for myself but all the other children under my care.

Your right.
And I forgot to add the blood part. Children do cut themselve or scratch themselves ( I got a scratcher) they bite each other. So blood is there too.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*

I know young children put anything and everything in their mouths and then share it. They will take ANY bottle or sippy cup left behind (I do not leave these out).
.


HIV isn't transmitted thru saliva. You have to get semen, vaginal fluid, blood, or breastmilk INTO your bloodstream to have any risk of contracting HIV from someone who is positive. It is veryveryvery hard to transmit with casual contact. Why isolate an HIV+ kid and deprive your kid of a playmate because of misinformed hysteria?


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

My first reaction is of course I would let her. Then I really stopped to think about it. What the risks are of her contracting it from another child, would she be at a higher risk than being out in public with people of which we don't know the medical conditions? My answer is still yes. I don't know what people out there in the world have as far as diseases and I still take her out. I don't think she would be in any more danger playing with a child who is hiv+ than riding her bike, travelling by car, riding a horse, going to school etc. Is my thinking flawed or even stupid? I don't really know. I would gladly let her play with anyone whom she gets along with. Race, age, sexual orientation, medical needs, etc shouldn't really come into play.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/transmission.htm

I lean towards not allowing, I would need to do more reading. If my children where older I think it would be fine.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Yes! Of course. It would not only be a good teaching experience for my child but also I would never want to prevent my child from having good friends.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Wow, I can't believe the # of mamas who have said no or probably not. What exactly is the worry here? I mean geez, even a bite is low risk because the biter would have to be bleeding, and the blood would need to then get into your child's bloodstream, which the outflow of blood with a wound works to prevent.

I don't get it.


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## corrie43 (Mar 9, 2003)

I would ONLY if I was supervising the whole time. Young children do tend to bite, scratch, ect and blood could easily be transmitted. I would keep a very close eye on them, but yes, I would allow them to play together.


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:

I lean towards not allowing, I would need to do more reading. If my children where older I think it would be fine.
Just curious as to what age you would feel comfortable with interaction and why does your opinion change depending on the age of the child?


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Well I have biters that bite hard enough to draw blood, granted its not a lot lot but it still bled.

So far me and other other said no. I am surprised there was even another no.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

yes of course.I think it is understood that someone will take care of open wounds/no contact and that sort of thing and educate the children when they are big enough to understand.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yes I would. I would probably ask the parent some questions or read a little more though. But, yes, I would.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Okay after I posted it I thought my second question should be a post on its own not a hitchhiker. So I removed it. Didn't want to get do far left or right, sorry


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## ma2maya (Jun 12, 2003)

Yes. I will not profess to be completely knowledgable about HIV or AIDS despite having worked in the child welfare system and daycare(with infectious disease training that goes along w/it). So I can see myself researching to gain a better understanding. I think I would be more concerned about the HIV child, but that just may stem from an ignorance on my part.

Kathy


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
How about letting you teenager date an HIV person?

I would educate her on the risks that go along with dating someone regardless of hiv status. I would trust her to make decisions for herself knowing the consequence of her actions. I mean I really don't want her to ever grow up and date but she will and she may not date someone that I like but its her life isn't it. My parents never gave me rules like who I could and couldn't play with or date and I think I made good choices. I think that telling a teenager what they can't do drives them to do it even more.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ma2maya*
I think I would be more concerned about the HIV child, but that just may stem from an ignorance on my part.

Kathy

No this is totally valid. HIV+ kids may have compromised immune systems, so in fact an HIV- child with a virus may be more dangerous to them than viceversa.

And yes I would let my teenager date someone who is HIV+.

I find the low level of knowledge in this thread to be frightening!


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## azyre (Oct 10, 2003)

My head says yes and my heart says unsure. Just want to be honest with you - I am not completely immune to the fear about this particular disease that has been generated. I am definetely open to making this situation inside my comfort zone, but I still have an initial resistance, even though I know it isn't based on fact.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

low level of knowledge No its more of I want to protect my child and will education them with the age approrate understanding of HIV.

I choose to say no and it doesn't make me a bad person but a careful person. I also am not the norm to got with the flow,or being very PC.

Would you let your child play with a grenade?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*

Would you let your child play with a grenade?

That is freaking ridiculous, comparing a child to a grenade. Get a grip.

ETA: YOur level of knowledge is deplorable. You think HIV is transmitted by saliva! Are you living in 1984? Thank goddess you are not allowed to know the HIV status of the children in your care.

Watch your misguided opinions about things you haven't experienced, you never know who you are talking to or who you may hurt.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd be more cautious with toddlers, who can bite or scratch (and even then transmission would be unlikely), but my daughter is in kindergarten, so there really wouldn't be any way of it being transmitted. And if she did have an HIV+ friend, my concerns would be more about exposing her friend to my DD's everyday germs.

By the way, I hope everyone here realizes that their children could have friends at school who are HIV+ and you would have no way of knowing.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

If one of your friends or a fellow playgroup attendee had an HIV+ child, would you allow your child to play with that child?
Yes. A friend of mine is HIV+ and she babysits the kids and it isn't even a thought or worry that they will contract the disease.

*HIV is not transmitted by day to day contact in the home, the workplace, schools, or social settings. HIV is not transmitted through shaking hands, hugging or a casual kiss. You cannot become infected from a toilet seat, a drinking fountain, a doorknob, dishes, drinking glasses, food, or pets.

HIV is a fragile virus that does not live long outside the body. HIV is not an airborne or food borne virus. HIV is present in the blood, semen or vaginal secretions of an infected person and can be transmitted through unprotected vaginal, oral or anal sex or through sharing injection drug needles. (Source: Centers for Disease Control - CDC)*

Maybe this site Children Affected By AIDS Foundation could answer some questions people may have. Don't be afraid to contact these people and ask - they WANT to educate people and will be happy to help!


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

YES! no reservations.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Flame me if you will, but I would also breastfeed if I were HIV+


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
Flame me if you will, but I would also breastfeed if I were HIV+

You're my kind of mama!


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Of course! There's no reason I wouldn't.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
Flame me if you will, but I would also breastfeed if I were HIV+









I would too!


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## sweetfeet (Jan 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
Would you let your child play with a grenade?









Its a child. One who wants to play and be free and happy just like your child wants to play and live. Why turn it into something ugly? Grenades are very different than a child who has a disease that causes some people to become afraid and snatch their kids up and leave. If it were your baby would you expect them to live a life of seclusion?
I'm not a perfect person or a perfect parent. I often make snap judgements about situations and what I would or wouldn't do if I were that person. The truth is that I have no idea of what it is like to be that person. I just want to be as compassionate as I can and to teach my dd the same. Obviously her health and safety come before everyone else's but I think if she was educated for her age level and such that it would be ok.


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetfeet*
Just curious as to what age you would feel comfortable with interaction and why does your opinion change depending on the age of the child?









I dont think there is a right age for me, just old enough to be careful and understand HIV is transmitted.

My reason being young children dont know how to be careful.


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## Lucky (Nov 14, 2004)

I don't think interacting with an HIV+ person is the same as playing with a hand grenade.

Dc is allowed to play with HIV+ children. For all I know, dc may already have a friend or 2 who are HIV+...it's not something I ask, or concider, when arranging a playdate.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

LOL I do so enjoy when I can add to a thread and get peoples hair bristles up.

Both can kill a child.

If you read my first post I did not say I would never allow a child with hiv in my preschool. I simple said state does not allow anyone to ask and that I would never ask either.

I said I did not think I would allow my child to play with an HIV child.Then I said I needed more information and understanding of HIV as I have not yet been exposed to HIV on the education level.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

I would CERTAINLY allow my HIV- children to be with HIV+ children.

I was sorry to read about your experiences with your son, Dharmamama


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
LOL I do so enjoy when I can add to a thread and get peoples hair bristles up.

Ya I really feel proud of myself too when I spout hurtful opinions that have no basis in factual understanding, and contribute to the demonization and isolation of other people, especially children.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
Both can kill a child.

Ya it's exactly the same thing. HIV+ child = grenade. Why didn't I think of that?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
If you read my first post I did not say I would never allow a child with hiv in my preschool. I simple said state does not allow anyone to ask and that I would never ask either.

Um you wouldn't be allowed to refuse service to a child with HIV. But of course you should ask - I mean you wouldn't treat them any differently would you?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimmysue2*
I said I did not think I would allow my child to play with an HIV child.Then I said I needed more information and understanding of HIV as I have not yet been exposed to HIV on the education level.

Well I agree with your last sentence. And I think you should get it quick, BEFORE you talk about HIV.


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Unless they are playing with needles I would have no problems.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm another of the "my head says 'yes' but my heart says 'I don't know'" persuasion. It would really depend on the type of play. My son has a friend with whom he wrestles very roughly. They draw blood sometimes (by accident, of course) and are in very close contact with one another when that happens. I don't think I'd be comfortable allowing that kind of play between my son and an HIV+ child.

Casual contact? Of course. No problem. My teenager dating another kid who was HIV+? Again, not sure. I mean, I couldn't really control it, but I'm not sure how great I'd feel about it. I know I'd feel much more comfortable if my teenager were the type who both understood and was likely to remember to take proper precautions. I admit that it would make me nervous though, given the things I did when I was a teenager.

HIV is scary... yes, some of my fear is because of propaganda. Most of it is from watching friends become very ill from it. Whatever it's from, I don't think a person is bad or unfeeling or uncaring because they have to think twice about the question.


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## Beverly (May 7, 2002)

I wouldn't have a problem with it, either. One assumes that younger children are supervised when they play, so any potential problem could be avoided. Older children can and should be educated and again, avoid any problems.

When my daughter was a toddler, we had a very good family friend who had AIDS and I never hesitated to leave her in his care.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

OK, thismama, educate me then.

I'm already aware it can't be contracted through saliva or casual contact. But I've always been told that if you have even the tiniest open wound (like a papercut or something small you normally wouldn't notice), and some blood from an HIV+ person gets into it, then you could get HIV. With all the biting and scratching very young children do, it seems like a real risk to me.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

If one of your friends or a fellow playgroup attendee had an HIV+ child, would you allow your child to play with that child?
Yes, I would have no problem.

Quote:

Well I have biters that bite hard enough to draw blood, granted its not a lot lot but it still bled.








Wow, I would be really upset with a parent that allowed their child to draw blood more than once. I consider that more of a risk to my child than playing normally with a HIV+ child. DD is 6 and DS 3 and neither of them have ever broken the skin of, or had their skin broken by another child. I would expect normal adult supervision of the children to occur.

Quote:

LOL I do so enjoy when I can add to a thread and get peoples hair bristles up.
I guess we each have to take pride in different things.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*







Wow, I would be really upset with a parent that allowed their child to draw blood more than once. I consider that more of a risk to my child than playing normally with a HIV+ child. DD is 6 and DS 3 and neither of them have ever broken the skin of, or had their skin broken by another child. I would expect normal adult supervision of the children to occur.

Biting happens sometimes even with close adult supervision.

I also want to respond to this:

Quote:

When my daughter was a toddler, we had a very good family friend who had AIDS and I never hesitated to leave her in his care.
I think leaving your child in the care of a responsible adult with HIV or AIDS is an entirely different thing than allowing your toddler to play with an HIV+ toddler. Not saying that the latter is a *bad* thing, by any means, just that the two aren't comparable. The adult is capable of taking precautions. Toddlers are not and parents can't supervise closely enough to bring the risk to 0.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Hi Persephone. The thing is that blood (or semen or vag fluids, but really blood with children) would need to GET INTO an open wound. So if you have a child who bites another or scratches another, the biter/scratcher would have to be bleeding in order for any chance of transmission to occur.

And usually cuts are bleeding OUT, not allowing blood to enter in. So the risk would be theoretical to low at best. Even giviing oral sex to someone who is HIV+ is widely considered to be low risk unless you have open sores, and you are talking about someone ejaculating into your mouth. Getting a scratch or a child's bite seems pretty insignificant comparatively.

Fyi, hepatitis is 15 times more transmissable than HIV. But I've never seen a thread about it. The hysteria is focused on HIV, and it's not a logical focus of fear.

And I find it strange that people assume other people are not HIV+, or living with Hep, for that matter. If we're going to be *so* concerned if we know a child's HIV status, why do we assume that if we don't know it's negative.

It is for this reason that I also said I would allow my child to date someone who they know to be +. People are much more likely to take appropriate universal precautions if they know they or their partner is +.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

From what I know it's passed by bodily fluids, and it's okay to share drinks with an HIV+ person. That being said, I think my protective mommy part inside would want that HIV child to be past the age of putting everything in their mouth and not sharing sippy cups with others. It's the logical side of me vs. the emotional protective mommy side of me.

A child who is teething could have a bleeding open gum (Abi has bled with a couple of her teeth). They can bite each other, scratch. At a recent playgroup a toddler was chewing on a bubble wand deep back in her mouth. I believe she was teething. Then a few minutes later, after I had put the wand away, somehow my dd got ahold of it and was chewing with it deep back in her mouth. I know germs were exchanged.

Once they got past that drooling-everything-in-the-mouth age I would have no problems at all with the child playing with my children, esp. once that hypothetical child has a face and a name and I know them and their parents. I would have no problems inviting them to my home or anything like that.

I have a lot of friends who don't vax their kids and I often feel a little bit nervous being around them with my baby who has some health issues. Her immune system is okay but when Nitara gets sick it seems to be 10 times worse for her than for a normal baby because of her reflux and ear problems. But even with that group I do end up being around them because they are nice people and logically the chance of getting something from them is pretty low (they could just as easily get something from our family!).

Darshani


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

Biting happens sometimes even with close adult supervision.
Yup. Having two children of my own, 14 nieces and nephews, being one of nine children... I know biting happens.

BUT, IMO if your child has bitten another child MORE THAN ONCE hard enough to draw blood, that is a problem that *you* the parent needs to worry about (not being concerned your child is going to catch something from another child they bite so hard the kid bleeds into their mouth). If you know your child bites *that* hard, you need to follow them like a hawk until you know they won't anymore. I'm not talking about normal rough and tumble play--- breaking skin is a serious matter, imo.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I guess I didn't read her post as meaning that she lets her children go around biting people; just that she knows what they are capable of and that's why she has a legitimate concern.


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Yes.

This comes really close to home as my sister was disabled and people would never let their kids play with her, because they were afraid their kids would somehow become disabled if they even went near her. Even with concrete evidence that her disability was not contageous.

I know a physical disability is not the same thing as being HIV+, but the attitudes towards it are the same.

I understand the fear, and the uncertainty, but every child needs to be able to play, and have companionship, and be included. To be alone, just because people won't educate themselves is a tragedy.

Sorry, this one hit a nerve.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

NO. As un-pc as it may sound. I have seem my kids eat each other's scabs, get pee and and pieces of poop on the toilet seat that is sat on by the next kid, eat each other's snots, scratch their private parts and then go about their business with germy hands, spit and drool on each other.. etc etc. No way would I let my kids play with someone who was HIV+ until they were 9 or 10. In fact this is one of the reasons I've kept my kids out of public school b/c there are HIV+ kids in the waaaaay over crowded school.

You don't have to tell me that HIV is not spread by pee, spit or poop. But IMO the chance of there being blood from a loose tooth (and I've seen some gory things involving those too), mouth ulcer, or trace blood in the pee or poop is too much for me. And the scab eating thing is too big a risk for me.

editing to add: I have a friend whose toddler was bit through the skin requiring stiches by another toddler. What if the child being bitten was HIV positive and the biter got the blood in their mouth?? Sorry. Too much of a risk for this protective mommy.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*

But IMO the chance of there being blood from a loose tooth (and I've seen some gory things involving those too), mouth ulcer, or trace blood in the pee or poop is too much for me. And the scab eating thing is too big a risk for me.











I feel so sad reading some of the attitudes on this thread.







I don't know what to say anymore.


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## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

I don't know. DS2 is immune compromised b/c of his health issues, so I won't even let him play w/kids who have a cold or a runny nose. DS1 I wouldn't be worried about as he is older & past the biting, scratching, etc stage.

AmiBeth


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Whew, what a heated topic. Yes, I would feel comfortable letting my kids play with an HIV+ child. My kids have never bitten or drawn blood on other kids, and I see the chance of having two open wounds bleeding into each other seems extremly unlikely. I do have a level of supervision when my young children play with others, and anything unsafe would be stopped regardless of any child's HIV status. If my kids get poop on the toliet, it is cleaned up, wounds are dealt with promptly, and biting isn't tolerated and if someone is in a biting phase, I would make sure when another child is around that I sit with them as they play and step in if any biting is imminent. This has nothing to do with fear of infection, but just being respectful of others. I can understand mamas having fears, I mean we all want our kids to be safe, but if I had concerns (rational or irrational) and I had good communication with the mom, I would gently talk to the mother of the HIV+ child, saying "I really want to feel comfortable with our kids playing together but I am feeling scared about biting, saliva, feces or scab eating (?) or whatever" and get to a place where the mom and I felt comfortable. I am sure the mom would say, "biting isn't an issue with my child", or "lets just supervise their play" and it would be no big deal.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Yes, I would- as long as I enjoyed the parents company.









I don't ask what issues a child has, so it's very possible my kids have played w/an HIV positive child at the park or mall playground.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Unequivocably yes.

I have a question regarding the breast milk thing. If the mum is HIV+ and the baby is delivered by c-section, and spared the virus - could you not transmit the virus to the baby by breastfeeding? I mean, if you were both HIV+ fine. But if my baby was NOT HIV+ and I was, I would not breastfeed him/her and spare them the disease.

Just wondering because another poster mentioned that they would breastfeed even if they were HIV+.


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## weetzie (May 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoesmummy*

I have a question regarding the breast milk thing. If the mum is HIV+ and the baby is delivered by c-section, and spared the virus - could you not transmit the virus to the baby by breastfeeding? I mean, if you were both HIV+ fine. But if my baby was NOT HIV+ and I was, I would not breastfeed him/her and spare them the disease.

Just wondering because another poster mentioned that they would breastfeed even if they were HIV+.

Curious about this as well--I do know that it is a risk for an HIV+ mother to breastfeed an HIV- infant but my education on it is very limited.

Edited to add that I don't have children, hence my not answering the question originally, but if I did then of course they could play with an HIV+ child.


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## boosmom (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
Yes, I would- as long as I enjoyed the parents company.









I don't ask what issues a child has, so it's very possible my kids have played w/an HIV positive child at the park or mall playground.


I completely agree. So sorry about your playgroup Dharmamama


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

For one of my kids, the answer is a guarded yes. For the other, an unequivocal no.

BUT.

The guarded yes kid is only so because the unequivocal no kid (who is younger) is immunosupressed for a variety of reasons. I don't knowingly allow the younger to play with anyone who has a transmittable, communicable condition or disease. Full-stop. I expect her to outgrow her current fragility and when the day comes I'll happily and joyfully reevaluate but until then I have to say no way. We rarely go anywhere where I cannot wipe down the area and get out easily should someone walk in who is hacking and wheezing. My friends are used to use packing up quickly and heading out. I'd rather mistake allergies for a cold than the other way around - last year's "minor" cold ended up in a 4-day hospital stay at 5 weeks and I don't wish to repeat.

For the oldest my only concern is protecting him from contracting something that he may bring home to us - and this concern is admitedly relating mostly to colds and flu. He's good about washing his hands, though, and practicing good hygiene even when away from home. So while I'd be concerned I don't think there would be anything that a frank discussion with an HIV+ child's parent couldn't settle for me.

I recognize that the nature of HIV is such that the odds are almost infintesimally against transmission _and_ I also have to recognize that the reality of my family at the moment requires contant vigilance against even seemingly minor concerns. In this case it would be a tough balance - I'd probably allow my oldest to go on a playdate, but would not pick up or drop off if it required that my youngest would be tempted to stop and play. If we're vigilant and lucky enough, one day both kids could play. Hope so.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

Not to speak for other moms about whether or not they would nurse if HIV +, I am curious what their stance is, but there have been many Mothering articles about HIV, AZT and breastfeeding. On the Mothering website there is the article called HIV and Breastfeeding by George Kent PhD from the Issue 94, May/June 1999. "The majority of infants of HIV-positive mothers will not become infected as a result of breastfeeding. Therefore, depriving all infants born to HIV-positive mothers of the benefits of breastfeeding seems unwarranted, especially if breastfed infants receive some protective effects from breastmilk.", from the previously mentioned article. It is thought that antibodies from the breastmilk may help protect the babies. Also it is World Health Organization's position that for HIV infected mothers in areas where the dangers of formula or other substitutes are more prevalent (i.e. problems with water safety, supply issues, etc) that the risk of severe illnesses from these conditions is more likely than the transmission of HIV from breastmilk. Hope that made some sense, I am getting my face painted by two kids so it makes it hard to be articulate.


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

Yes, I would permit my child to play with another child who I *knew* was HIV+. Quite honestly, the disease isn't as rare among children as it was 10-15 years ago. I have *no* idea if my DS's current playmates are HIV+ or -. That's why we have universal precautions. For the same reason, I would not have a major problem with DC dating someone with HIV - you should be taking all precautions in any such relationship whether you know or don't know anyway.


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

Also re the b/fing - if I was in the situation I probably wouldn't do it because of the risk (probably try and get donor milk); but my understanding is that it's a closed/open gut issue - as long as an infant is exclusively receiving b/m (no formula or solids) the risk of infection is low; but once anything else is introduced there is more of a risk.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Gosh there are posters here who know a lot of violent children.

I would have no problem with my kid playing with an HIV kid.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
Gosh there are posters here who know a lot of violent children.

How do you figure? I think there are people here who know a lot of normal children. Kids can be unpredictable, particularly very young children who can't express themselves verbally and, so, use physical measures.


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

Of course i would!

children share toys, laugh, run around... why should an HiV+ child be left out of this natural part of life?.. HIV is transmitted by blood or sexually transmitted.. its VERY unlikely that it could ever spread in an environment like a playgroup. if people think this way they should do some research and some soul searching.. it saddens and shocks me that people can be soo blind and so scared.








s


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I allow my child to be around, touch, hug, and kiss my HIV+ aunt and uncle with AIDS. I don't ask strangers about the diseases their children carry as a rule, so I can't see ever knowing, first off. But I would absolutely allow my child to play with an HIV+ child. I'm much more concerned about common ailments like colds and flu (mainly because _I_ don't want to get them) and yet I allow my child to play with children who are snotty or coughing as well. If I knew about a somewhat serious, highly contractable disease that another child was carrying, I might be concerned, but I would also hope that very sick children would stay at home.


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## sincitymama (Sep 20, 2003)

Of course I would allow it. I'm so surprised by some of the responses! But hten I was in elementary school in the 80's and high school in the 90's....so information about HIV has been given to me from a pretty young age, I just grew up knowing about universal precautions and things. Maybe that makes a difference?
I didn't learn about it until I was learning at the same time to not be afraid of water fountaind and kisses and things. Hmm. Anyway I'd be more worried about the other child, that we'd get them sick before we realized we were contagious.
How would I even know, anyway?


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## Ame (Apr 15, 2002)

absolutely unequivocally YES....it's hard to think about discrimination. I hope if you are able you won't let ignorance of others stop you.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
How do you figure? I think there are people here who know a lot of normal children. Kids can be unpredictable, particularly very young children who can't express themselves verbally and, so, use physical measures.

I read this thread in one go, and there seemed to be lots of posts about biting, scratching, etc., which is not something I see in my life.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

Wow. Interesting thread. I really hope it's leading some mamas to reconsider their view of HIV.

I graduated in 1986. And, OMG! The misperceptions about HIV/AIDS were tremendous! I'm sure that figures into many parents' illogical fear.

We homeschool but not because I harbor any weird idea that my children's peers might infect them. My children's hs friends might be HIV+; I don't know. I've never asked. Wouldn't even occur to me.

My youngest child has an "officially" severely-compromised immune system due to the impact of his multiple food allergies. His bloodwork suggests that he should be constantly sick. Except for allergic reactions, he's never been ill. Even so, I don't quite understand how a weak immune system would put a child at greater risk of contracting HIV. It's not like a cold or the flu. My child is at far more risk around a cheese sandwich or an ice cream cone than he is around someone with HIV.

The comparison of a child to a grenade was...thoughtless. Cruel, even. A child with HIV is not designed to hurt another child. I don't let my children play with knives or fire or cheese...but another _child_ ? As long as they've washed their hands. Damn allergies.

Missy


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
If one of your friends or a fellow playgroup attendee had an HIV+ child, would you allow your child to play with that child?

Namaste!


Abso - flippin - lutely!

Why not? Of course, since my bil has full blown aids, I would consider myself educated on the matter. Unfortunately, not everyone else is........


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## CaliMommie (Feb 11, 2004)

Quote:

Even so, I don't quite understand how a weak immune system would put a child at greater risk of contracting HIV. It's not like a cold or the flu. My child is at far more risk around a cheese sandwich or an ice cream cone than he is around someone with HIV.
It's not that I think my immune-suppressed child is more at risk of contracting HIV, it's that HIV is a disease that can supress the immune system, so I would think my child would be more likely to catch a cold, flu, etc from an HIV+ child, just as that child would be more likely to catch something from other children than a child who was not immune suppressed.

I am extremely cautious with both of my boys around anyone (adults included) HIV+ or not, b/c for DS2 a 24-hour flu (which is what other family members had) turned into a 4-day hospital stay & his stomach not emptying for a month.

AmiBeth


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

I think that this thread is giving an unfair count of what would actually happen in real life. The PC answer is "of course". I know that all who say that here believe they would do it if ever in that situation. When it got right down to that situation, it may or may not happen that way. It is easy to say what we would do - different thing to actually be put to the test.

Also, many who honestly would be too worried to allow it (however guilty they may feel for that - or how low the possibility of transmission) are not going to post that here because they will be thought of as intolerant and uneducated.

I understand the poster who said no or with extreme supervision when the kids are little, but more comfortable with it when they are older and more able to understand universal precautions. I know the risks are low - I think everyone understands the risks are low - but there is the possibility, no? That slight possibility (of a fatal illness) is what scares people.

I'm not sure how you forbid your child from dating someone who is HIV+ (anyone who thinks they can control a teenager must not have met some of us as kids) but that is a frightening prospect to me. Friends with, sure. Dating... it is scary. You are trusting children with some very serious stuff and mixing it up with raging hormones and less than total maturity. I know we let them drive cars and do other things that carry extreme risks.

To the OP, I think it is great that you are getting support here on MDC. I just don't think it is accurate to think that that is how the general public in your town would react. It is sad. No one is proud of feeling that way. But some do - whether they'll post about it or not. I think that many of us could say we'd be fine with our older (10?) child being in close contact with an HIV+ friend - but little kids are so unpredictable. I would want to but I know it would scare me - right or wrong. Maybe some of us would do the right thing once we could put a face on it. I think what we are doing here is just talk - what we think we would do.

I think it is great that you are sponsoring a child - and considering adoption. Lucky child.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

dh and i both agree, yes. i would assume that the hiv+ child would be aware of any safety precautions he/she would need to take. i'm talking common sense here - no becoming "blood brothers", etc. (yes, i did that kind of stuff as a kid)

nak
lb


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## ryleeee (Feb 9, 2005)

This is an ignorant thread. How would you feel if your child was HIV positive? I'm SURE you wouldn't be comparing him/her to a grenade.

Quote:

Both can kill a child.
Yeah. So can a million other things.
Like peanut butter. And bumblebees. And serial killers.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

i wouldn't have any problem with it.


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

For those of you who said no, do you pre-test all potential playmates for your kids?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yep. I'd allow my child to play with an HIV+ child. I'd explain it was very important not to bite her or him, and not to touch blood, and leave it at that. And yes, I'd allow them to be around HIV+ adults as well. Having HIV does not mean you are immoral. What if you got it through rape? Through being born to an HIV+ mother? Should you be ostracized because of what someone else did to you?

And yes, I would allow my teen to date an HIV+ person. Not all teens have sex, you know. I was about as "immoral" as they came and I did not have sex with all my teenage boyfriends.

I also had a "blood brother"...who, ironically, later got HIV.

Since you can't possibly know who has HIV, I think stuff like this just encourages fear of people from Africa and fear of gay people.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
HIV isn't transmitted thru saliva. You have to get semen, vaginal fluid, blood, or breastmilk INTO your bloodstream to have any risk of contracting HIV from someone who is positive. It is veryveryvery hard to transmit with casual contact. Why isolate an HIV+ kid and deprive your kid of a playmate because of misinformed hysteria?

exactamundo.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread. I appreciate the honesty of those who have said no, and I never intended for the "no's" to be villified. My own SIL has told us flat out that she would never allow her child (or herself, for that matter) to (knowingly) be around an HIV+ person, and whether I like or agree with her sentiment or not, I respect her fears (and work to educate her). (Then again, this is the same SIL who told her daughter that _even though_ my son has dark skin, he's _probably_ a really nice person anyway!







)

I am heartened that there have been so many affirmative responses, although I realize that MDC is probably a biased sample. We certainly wouldn't base our decision to adopt on public opinion, but I would like to have some idea of what we would experience if we were able to adopt our sponsored child.

Namaste!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

This thread makes me sad.

Yes I would let my daughter play with a HIV+ child. However, I don't know how I would ever know because it is none of my business.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Having HIV does not mean you are immoral. What if you got it through rape? Through being born to an HIV+ mother? Should you be ostracized because of what someone else did to you?

Testing positive for HIV antiobodies, as a result of _consensual_ sex, doesn't make person immoral, either!!!!!!! The HIV status of a person should not be considered a litmus test for morality!!

I find it such a shame that there exists this hideous stigma over a plus or minus sign. It's so pervasive that people forget its just a virus. It's not a curse. HIV doesn't have a secret agenda to infiltrate our children's bodies.

If people want to protect their kids from big scary things like HIV positive-ness, then maybe they could start by making sure the kids learn to respect themselves and others enough to use protection when they become sexually active.


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## zealsmom (Nov 22, 2001)

Yes, I totally would. In the same way that I let him play with his HIV+ grandma (step and ex-grandma, but grandma nonetheless). But yes, it is her health that we worry about more than his.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I would absolutely let my older children play with an HIV+/Aids child. I would mention the blood thing etc but frankly shouldn't that be a conversation every child has? I would be more cautious about two smaller children playing together. I also see the scab, biting etc possiblities and I already have hypochondriac tendencies. I can see myself being overly cautious and causing the poor child to think something is wrong with him/her. I dont' see why anyone would have a problem with an adult who is HIV+ being around children.

dating-umm...no I would be against it. Doesn't dating usually involve exchanges of bodily fluids? Also, correct me if I am wrong but isn't it considered necessary to use condoms/dental dams etc with oral sex? I know the risk is low but even with men there is occasionally/often fluid exchanged prior to ejaculation.

The thing is to be honest I am not sure what I would do if my child was HIV+ regarding playing with other children etc. I am not sure how comfortable I would be with situtations.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

I definitely would. Much of my certainty comes from the fact that I used to work at an organization dedicated to children affected by HIV/AIDS (some of the kids were HIV+ themselves and some were not but had parents that were). There is a summer camp every year for small children up to teens, and it was an absolute joy to attend. I think it is important to keep in mind that HIV is a fragile virus that does not live long outside the body, and there has never been a documented case where a person was infected by a household member, relative, co-worker, or friend through casual or everyday contact (http://www.amfar.org/cgi-bin/iowa/ab....html?record=3). In fact, I have known married couples where one was HIV+ and never passed it on to a spouse they have lived with for years (one famous example of this is Magic Johnson and his wife).

As far as breastfeeding goes, it's debated whether breastmilk can pass it on to the child or not, and also debated whether this risk of transmission outweighs the benefits of breastfeeding (especially in sub-Saharan Africa, where there is a high rate of water contamination). However, in the U.S., women are generally advised not to breastfeed if they are HIV+. One of the studies done on this is here: http://www.gawh.org/issues/hiv/pmtct/breastfeeding.htm


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
Testing positive for HIV antiobodies, as a result of _consensual_ sex, doesn't make person immoral, either!!!!!!! The HIV status of a person should not be considered a litmus test for morality!!

I don't think so, either. But there are some ignorant people who do, and if a person was raped, or born to an HIV+ mom, or accidentally needle-sticked, or got a blood transfusion before a certain year, at least the ignorant people can't accuse them of being irresponsible or immoral.

I learned in a class about HIV that 1/3 of HIV cases are from the situations described above, according to the WHO.

Also...doesn't HIV die very quickly when exposed to air? Perhaps the scab-eating kids are safe after all. Gross, but safe.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:

Also...doesn't HIV die very quickly when exposed to air? Perhaps the scab-eating kids are safe after all. Gross, but safe.








Yup, it is very fragile outside of the human body and dies with contact to air.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha*
For those of you who said no, do you pre-test all potential playmates for your kids?


I posted a tentative/split vote earlier so I'm not sure if my response is one sought here, or even if the question is rhetorical, but I'll bite (so to speak).

No, I don't test but I do survey parents extensively as to their children's and family's health. And, more often than not, we have our playdates here at home where I can be at least reasonably sure as to the health and hygiene.

And now I have a question of my own. So many of us here at MDC are guarded at best when it comes to establishment/mainstream scientific research as it applies to vaccines, nutrition, pregnancy and birth, etc. Why are so many so quick to support it when it comes to HIV/AIDS? I'm ready to admit that there's so much we don't know about how vaccines work in the body and I'm ready to admit that there's so much we don't know about HIV/AIDS.

I'm asking this question in earnest, not to be snarky. And please, if you haven't read all the replies, don't assume this means I said I would not allow my child/ren to have an HIV+ playmate.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

without a doubt....

I would not even think twice about it.








a bit I was reading somewhere in a mainstream mag, 20% of preschoolers are not up to date on vaxing which compromises the health of others...wonder why people are misinformed about things like this? thanks to crappy journalism and the people who believe everything they read.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

Two more thoughts:

If it were my child, I certainly hope people would let their kids play with him.

And every single day, I am sure a lot of us are around HIV+ people without even knowing it. I live in a big city, take public transportation all the time, play at the park and I never think about something like this. It is not a fear for me. I certainly do not question the health issues of all my son's friends...


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I forgot to add last night that there is no excuse for comparing a child with an illness to an instrument of war/death, and I think that was completely uncalled for and insensitive. I hope that the person who did that will reconsider using such outrageous language in the future. What a terrible thing to say about a person!

Namaste!


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## Lucky (Nov 14, 2004)

as far as the concern about biting and scratching goes...

I teach dc that those behaviors are unsafe, always. I'd leave a playgroup if there was biting and scratching going on, in any situation. Play safe for everyone!


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

I spent my uni years working in an AIDS hospice and I can, without a doubt, say yes I would alow my child to play with anyone (adult, child, teen, baby) with HIV+ status. And he probably already has - how would I know? I'm not going to ask, that's the whole point behind universal precautions. Assuming everyone could be or is HIV+ ensures safety and creates a climate of acceptance rather than discrimmination for those who are +. And the fact of the matter is not everyone even knows their own status or that of thier child, and some lie about it. My brother's girlfriend didn't know she was + for most of their relationship - with universal precautions her status wouldn't matter as far as their sexual relationship went.

And I wouldn't worry about biting, scratching, eating scabs. The risk of these is theoretical at most. The virus is very weak - it's not easy to transmit or contract; even with unprotected sex it's not guaranteed to be transmitted.

As for my (long off) teen dating a HIV+ person I'd have to leave it up to him. My parents weren't so keen on my hospice work at first but once educated supported me 100%, and my work there was often much more intimate than teen sex (cleaning up vomit, blood, cleaning bed sores, changing soiled sheets and bedding, and a tonne more). If you know the risks and you raise your child knowing the risks you can eliminate it. Biting, etc is not a risk so it wouldn't concern me.

But what do I know? In the 90s I was answering calls from hysterical parents because Frankie spit in Johnny's eye and what if Frankie has HIV or AIDS? Now my son has to get tested and I just know it'll be positive.

I guess I would just stress everyone educate themselves now about risk and risk reduction, universal precautions etc before they (knowingly) have soe one around them who is HIV+. chances are it's already occurred and your child is fine.


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## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Of course I would. It's a non-issue for me.


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## laurajean (Nov 19, 2001)

dharmamama,

I am very sorry for your recent experiences. It sounds like a group of ignorant parents.

As far as letting my child play with an HIV+ child, I am sure he has on occasion. We live in NYC and we frequent many playgrounds and museums throughout the city. He probably comes in contact with many viruses. Whenever a parent puts their child in a group setting, there is a chance that a child in that group has a virus. That's life.

When I was a preschool teacher in a social service program, where parents were former drug users, prostitutes etc. I knew there were kids in the program who were HIV+. I did not know who they were... universal precautions were taken whenever someone was cut. And, as a preschool teacher in an upper middle class school, universal precautions are taken whenever someone gets a cut.

~Laura


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## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Of course I would! Without a doubt. Like ACT-UP used to say, "Silence = Death, Ignorance = Death."

Btw, my partner has operated (meaning, blood, guts, etc.) on HIV + patients before and it doesn't concern him at all b/c he is protected (as has just about everyone who has ever done a surgical residency and he said he's never heard of anyone getting HIV that way- it's just not possible).

I know I've worked with HIV+ people, my mom has (kids she works with) too, my best friend's mom has fostered TONS of HIV+ kids....it could never occur to me to be worried beyond percautions I take with everyone (like no biting- but that's about respect to me, not germs/viruses)

D'M, I read your original thread about your new babe and I'm APPALLED at how those people treated you....all I could think of was 1)racism and 2)HIV/AIDS and it's disgusting that people are still so ignorant
















ETA: That last comment was directed at the parents in D'M's playgroup, not anyone posting here, I realized it might have been misleading.......


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Yes yes yes, I would and I will, for all the reasons the other "yes" posters have stated.

I just read the whole thread and want to point out that everyone who has personal experience and knowledge of HIV/AIDS - whether through career/work experience or family/friends - said "yes." No one with specialized knowledge said "no."


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*

And now I have a question of my own. So many of us here at MDC are guarded at best when it comes to establishment/mainstream scientific research as it applies to vaccines, nutrition, pregnancy and birth, etc. Why are so many so quick to support it when it comes to HIV/AIDS? I'm ready to admit that there's so much we don't know about how vaccines work in the body and I'm ready to admit that there's so much we don't know about HIV/AIDS.


I'm quick to support because I live in queer community, used to work at the local AIDS service agency, and have many friends who are poz. I know the history of HIV/AIDS in our area of the world and how people were left isolated to die without human contact or caring. I know Reagon didn't even say the words until a HUGE number of people died (maybe someone else remembers the exact number) because it was "only" **** and Haitian refugees. I have heard the theoretical pondering by people who do not have HIV or love anyone with HIV about how "those people" should be put on an island somewhere. I kid you not.

We are hysterical about the possibility of transmission. I know gay men who have slept with literally hundreds of people, many of whom must have been +, and have not contracted the virus. I know gay men who have unprotected oral sex with men they know to have HIV and they have not contracted it. If you have intercourse without a condom or share a needle or engage in other high risk activity, yes you are putting yourself at risk. But HIV is not spread from child to child, from saliva or possible trace amounts of blood in poop that another child may or may not ingest. Some of the fears people have expressed are bizarre. And I KNOW firsthand that they are not true because not only have I read the extensive studies but I would have HIV if it were passed that easily! And so would you!

And as soon as we start talking about not "letting" our kids play with someone who has HIV, we are assuming our kids don't *already* play with positive kids, and we are willing to make + kids other and isolate them. A logical extension of saying our kids can't play with + kids is to say that + kids shouldn't be allowed to play with - kids. Reminiscent of the "put them all on the island" theory.

So I see that the intent of people who have said "no" is simply to take no risks and protect their own children. But what I don't think people are seeing is that it is not just harmless to ignore all the evidence about how HIV is transmitted and keep your kids away from HIV+ kids. That decision has an impact, and that impact is cold and cruel and isolating to HIV+ children.

Didn't we learn anything from Ryan White?


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## Katie Bugs Mama (Feb 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
Flame me if you will, but I would also breastfeed if I were HIV+

Why would anyone flame you? Studies have shown that as long as a baby is exclusively BF, she will not contract HIV from breastmilk. It isn't until other substances are introduced--solids, formula, etc.--that transmission becomes an issue.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

thismama


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## lizzie (Dec 5, 2001)

Yes, I would let my children play with an HIV+ child.

If for no other reason (although actually for several other reasons) I would because it could happen to me, and no child should have to live the heartbreak of feeling unwanted.

lizzie


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## jenaniah (Nov 23, 2003)

Yes I would...I wouldn't even ask anyone if they or there their child were HIV+ I figure they will be responsible enough to take necessary percautions (such as covering open sores etc.) I don't really think it is my business to ask anyone their health status (just as schools, preschools and daycares are not allowed to ask if a child has HIV)


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## MamaFern (Dec 13, 2003)

thismom.. that was well said!

it shocks me that even in a community like "mothering" there is so much ignorance and hatred. no one deserves to be shunned..

i grew up with a brother with downs syndrome.. sometimes i felt like people thought he was contagious.. another poster said something to this extent too.. at school the teacher would lock him in a closet if he was misbehaving.. did she do that to the other kids NO! she would come get me and say "talk to your brother" i was 2 years younger. grade 1.. in the school yard other kids would throw stuff at him and tease him and call him names. and i would walk with him and tell him that i loved him and that those kids didnt know what they were talking about. no child should live this.. as a sibling or friend or disabled/sick kid..

those days are over or us.. he has a community or friends that love him. but i cant help but wonder if its still that way, or if hopefully, there is more education and a bit more acceptance in our world.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I would let my children play with an HIV+ child. Just because they have HIV or AIDS, is no reason not to let them play together, IMO. They need friends too.


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## Unreal (Dec 15, 2002)

I was going to type up a sarcastic response, but remembered that sarcasm doesn't always read right...so...

Yes. Without a doubt, I would let my kids play with someone that was HIV+

My 9 year old and I have talked about such things to some extent--about there being illnesses that pass through blood and it is always best to be careful when dealing with such things--meaning notify an adult if there is an accident, and at his age right now, let an adult take care of and clean up a wound and its associated mess









I always do my best to notify parents when my kids are sick to avoid spreading illnesses--so meeting a family that has to be careful wouldn't change anything, ya know? It is just basic consideration for others....

And I think it is a bigger concern for me that so many people seem to assume that if you don't see or have visible evidence that a person has a medical issue, that they must be okay....from disabilities to illnesses...isn't it better to just treat everyone with courteousy and extend the same care and concern to/for everyone?
I hold the door open for everyone nearby me, not just people who display handicaps and I discourage my kids from playing with all bodily fluids--not just those from a kid that has been tested postive for HIV....kwim?


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I have direct personal experience with AIDS.

And to be honest with you, while I don't really think about who has what disease, the possibility of my kid getting it DOES frighten me.

Now, you can call me an ignorant B if you want, and I'm glad that some of you are so enlightened that the horror of AIDS and the risks of HIV (what if you don't have insurance and can't get the drugs? What if you get booted off your insurance plan? What happens when our govt. starts tracking people?) don't scare you when you think about it.

But they do scare me.

I don't want my kid to get ALL. I don't want them to become HIV+. I don't want them to get Hep in any of its forms. I don't want them to grow a brain tumor. If they do, I'll deal with it. I'm not afraid of anyone who suffers from any of those things.

But sorry, I'll be honest. I would feel some fear. I'd probably swallow it and move on. But I would still feel it, and deal with it. I don't think it's wise for me to say "oh, no reservations" when I would have them. But I've had reservations about a lot of things and sometimes I act on them but most of the time I just see what happens.

It is mean and ignorant to assume that EVERYONE who has fear acts on it, or that everyone who doesn't react the same way that you do is wrong. I'm frankly amazed that so many people said "I wouldn't worry at all" about this, when they worry about vax, exposing their kids to mean mainstream people, ect. Maybe these people don't worry about it because THEY'VE never seen what can be the end result of an HIV infection.

I have. I DON'T WANT MY CHILDREN TO DIE LIKE THAT.

It doesn't stop me from having contact with people with HIV or supporting the research and treatments that have kept it from being the horrendous death sentance it once was. But do NOT call me ignorant because the thought of my child contracting HIV and developing AIDS makes me feel sad and afraid and powerless.

You ever seen a Children's Hospital telethon, where they talk about little babies that die of leukemia? You ever cry when you see it? You ever hug your children a little tighter when you hear about it? Good. You're just as ignorant as me.

Please don't make assumptions about how people will act just because they're concerned, or their experiences when they are concerned.


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

I don't see why not. Honestly, I'd probably be extra vigilant if they were still in the "shove everything in their mouth" stage though. For both of their safety. Yes, I know the odds of HIV being transmitted by saliva are extremely slim to none. But that emotional, non-rational, mama bear part of me says "don't even take a tiny chance!" And of course, exposing an immune compromised child to any germs MY kid had would be dangerous too. So yeah, I'd be chasing them and trying to prevent the sharing of toys that were chewed.

And with older kids, we'd let them know, if someone gets hurt and is bleeding, don't try to deal with it yourself, get an adult to help. Actually, come to think of it, that's probably just good advice across the board, isn't it? Hmm.

Dating a person with HIV? Oh wow. Ok, gotta be un-PC here and say, I'd really rather they didn't. I wouldn't forbid it, but it would scare me. Teenagers dating and fooling around are a lot more likely to expose themselves to methods of transmission than kids playing together. I'd have a really serious talk with them about it, and then try to trust their judgement, but it would still freak me out.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:

Didn't we learn anything from Ryan White?
Thismama,

I just want to say I had been thinking about his story reading these boards, too. He was such an inspiration to me, and one of the reasons (along with many brave and wonderful activists in San Francisco who were ignored b/c AIDS was just a "gay disease") I got involved in HIV/AIDS activism. If you don't know his story, it's here: http://aids.about.com/od/triumphsand.../ryanwhite.htm

Quote:

So many of us here at MDC are guarded at best when it comes to establishment/mainstream scientific research as it applies to vaccines, nutrition, pregnancy and birth, etc. Why are so many so quick to support it when it comes to HIV/AIDS? I'm ready to admit that there's so much we don't know about how vaccines work in the body and I'm ready to admit that there's so much we don't know about HIV/AIDS.
For me, I think it's because I know the mainstream people handing out info about formula, birth, vax, and such are the same people that profit financially from me buying formula, using their hospitals, and taking their vaccines. Having worked with so many AIDS activists, I have a hard time believing they would have any motive to misinform the public - in fact, they were working incredibly hard to inform to public about AIDS when no one in the mainstream wanted to hear about it.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
And as soon as we start talking about not "letting" our kids play with someone who has HIV, we are assuming our kids don't *already* play with positive kids

Great posts, thismama. This is my thought....our child may already playing with positive kids!

And about teens....again, this is why we teach safe behavior and risky behavior. We simply don't know who is infected. The way I see it, the teen who choses to date an hiv+ person at least has the benefit of knowing, and will likely take the safe/risky behaviors more seriously.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I would. I'd be bit more careful, even though I know it can't be spread through casual contact/saliva, etc., I'd still be a bit more vigilent about swapping sippy cups, etc (DS is still very much in an oral phase and is too young to understand being careful)...more for my own peace of mind that any scientific reasons.

That being said, I didn't see any hatred in this thread - I see fear, and mamas are naturally over-protective of their children (how many of us have had other irrational fears regarding our kids?) I didn't see anyone suggest that children with HIV/AIDS be "shunned." I think it might be a more effective approach to enlightenment to accept the natural fears of mothers, but give them the information they need (in a non-judgmental way) to overcome that...it would go further in promoting education and understanding than attacking them for being protective.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

The only hatred I saw was the "grenade" comment. That was out of line.


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## julielenore (Apr 29, 2004)

Yes I would allow my child to play with an HIV + child. Most likely their HIV status would be hidden and you would not know if they had HIV or not. Your child could be playing with an HIV + child right now and you would not even know it. I do have to admit though that I would be a little concerned if the child hurt themselves and was bleeding, or during rough boisterous play where someone could get hurt.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
Gosh there are posters here who know a lot of violent children.

And that makes us scumbags?







I think you are all being naive about the risks here. Yes, it's not a big deal with older children, but with really little kids? I've worked as a nanny and DCP in addition to being a mom and I have seen so many unsanitary bodily fluid incidents that yes, sometimes involved blood and scabs.

You should make this an anonymous poll b/c I have feeling the ones who would say "no" are going to be scared off by the pc police.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

well said Tigerchild

I'm probably going to get totally flamed for this but here goes:

I too have seen what HIV/AIDs can do in real life- not in theory, not talking about "low risk vs high risk" or statistics but in real life- and knowing a close personal friend who contracted HIV from a "low risk" behavior- giving oral sex 3 times to an HIV pos man- I can tell you that as "low risk" as it may be deemed- people DO contract HIV from "low risk" situations- otherwise they would be called "no risk". I have seen how painful and debilitating HIV is- I see what kind of life my friend has. I am going to do everything in my power to protect my kids and myself from that.

Quote:

The thing is that blood (or semen or vag fluids, but really blood with children) would need to GET INTO an open wound. So if you have a child who bites another or scratches another, the biter/scratcher would have to be bleeding in order for any chance of transmission to occur.

And usually cuts are bleeding OUT, not allowing blood to enter in. So the *risk would be theoretical to low at best*. Even giviing oral sex to someone who is HIV+ is widely considered to be *low risk* unless you have open sores, and you are talking about someone ejaculating into your mouth. Getting a scratch or a child's bite seems pretty *insignificant comparatively*.

And I find it strange that people assume other people are not HIV+, or living with Hep, for that matter. If we're going to be *so* concerned if we know a child's HIV status, why do we assume that if we don't know it's negative.

It is for this reason that I also said I would allow my child to date someone who they know to be +. People are much more likely to take appropriate universal precautions if they know they or their partner is +.

I am just not comfortable with these hypotheticals- the "well the conditions would have to be this this and this" the fact is when kids are playing together anything can happen- unless you can assure me that those "conditions" could NEVER occur then hell no- I would never let a child who is still in the biting, licking, stratching, crazy behaviors out of no where, too young to explain how HUGE and horrible HIV is to them phase play with a child who I KNOW to have HIV. If I don't know a child's status, no I'm not going to request an Aids test or medical records- but I do intend to make a point of it to be aware of the health issues of my childs playmates- if a parent does not disclose the fact that their child is HIV + I would feel incredibly angry- but I can't control their deceptive behavior.

The issue here is this- if you ARE aware that a child has HIV would you be ok with your child playing with them? for me, no way unless both children were old enough to understand FULLY what behaviors could result in my child contracting a 100% LETHAL disease. How do you explain to a toddler that they can catch a disease that will kill them if they bite another child and draw blood AND happen to have bit their lip and have an open wound that day too? No toddler will understand the combination of conditions that COULD result in their slow and painful death! So no- I hate it if it isn't PC or even fair to HIV+ kids- but I'm sorry it isn't ignorant- I know the stats- how "low risk" it is but until it's "no risk" I cannot do it when I don't have to- yes we take risks everyday- we put our kids in cars, etc. but these are things that realistically we have to do unless we want to carry our child 10 miles to grandmas house and then walk 15 miles to work. I do not have to let my child play with a child who is HIV+

I would have no problem with my child playing with an HIV+ child when they are older- old enough to understand what AIDS is and how serious it is- and I trust them to not do crazy things like bite and such.

I would never tell my child they are "forbidden" to date anyone- if they are teens I don't feel like I can "forbid" things at all really- because they'll just do it behind my back- but I think I would try to get them to seriously consider how crazy it would be to date someone they know to have HIV- I mean why play with fire? why date someone you can NEVER have unprotected sex with without risking catching a fatal illness? There are enough people out there who you don't know about- that's why you use condoms every time- but when you know good and well that someone is HIV+ why in the world would you play roulette with your life like that- what happens when the condom breaks that 105th time you have sex and you have to worry non-stop that you have a fatal illness and will die early and painfully? What about children? You would never be able to have children with someone who is HIV+ (you would have to have unprotected sex to get pg) unless you are willing to risk your life and your baby's life. Why would you want to be with someone who you know will die early and you will have to see suffer for months or years before they do?

AIDS truly is a SERIOUS illness- we are right to have fear about it- we are right to be scared- we aren't right to be superstitious and think sitting on a toilet seat will give us AIDS or treating those who have AIDS nicely will give us AIDS- but we are right to acknowledge what is "low risk" is not "no risk" and some of us are not comfortable with "low risk" when it comes to a fatal disease.

I agree HIV+ kids should not be compared to weapons- it's not their fault- but quite frankly I am more concerned about my kids health than being "fair" to them if it means putting my kids in a situation of risk- call me selfish- but I'm not ignorant- I know the "low" risks and find them unacceptable for my kids.

It's a matter of judgement and personal experience- not ignorance for me- now flame away...


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I have let my children play with an HIV+ child, and I would again.


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## chiromama (Dec 29, 2003)

When i have babies of my own...

Yes.. I would let them play with/date etc. All it takes is a little knowledge to keep you safe. Universal precautions are just that... universal.

Dharmamama... Blessings to you and your family.


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

I agree with LoveChild421... I've seen HIV and AIDS up close in my friends... a few contracted from high risk behaviors, but a couple contracted HIV through very low risk situations... low risk does NOT equal NO risk... we take enough risks with our children everyday, I don't want to take more chances than I have to.


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

>HIV is transmitted by blood or sexually transmitted<

HIV is transmitted through bodily fluids. Saliva IS also a bodily fluid. Research being done by Scientists is not 100% by any means. Luckily they're making new discoveries everyday.

>if people think this way they should do some research<

Not looking for an argument, but what research have you done? Unfortunately, I have had to deal w/friends of HIV and a brother deathly ill w/Hep C. I have some great links, but we are moving and most everything is packed. I'll see what I can dig up...I think it would be good for this forum.

>and some soul searching.. it saddens and shocks me that people can be soo blind and so scared.<

I don't feel anyone here is being blind to the subject, there's alot to question. Being scared of HIV is completely normal. Once we take the time to learn about this evil disease, our minds will be put at rest and we can make confident decisions for our kids.

In response to the OP. I think it's good to be on your guard where HIV and your children are concerned. But IMO, I would do some resarch about it all and make a decision for your self/dc. Yes, I would/have let my son play with infected children/ his Hep C + uncle. No drinks were shared and everyone was sniffle/cough free at the time. HIV children shouldn't be left out.

On the subject of your baby and non vax'd kids...the one thing you shouldn't fear are the unvax'd kids. They haven't been injected w/the diseases I assume you're worried about.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)




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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

Yes I would.
In regards to the low risk still being a risk. I ride horses, Dd likes to get on too. The risk that the horse will freak, and Dd will get hurt is very minimal, but it is there. Will I forbid her from riding? No. Would I forbid her from from playing with someone who has AIDS/HIV? No. I try to protect my children from many things, but I also understand that there are always risks, unless you live in a bubble.
Sandy


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

There is a big different between riding horses and playing with an HIV+ child. You are an adult and know the precautions to take when riding horses... I'd assume you wouldn't put your young daughter on a horse with no helmet and just let her ride off alone until she was old enough and knew what she was doing, would you?

Young children however are not responsible like adults and don't understand that biting, scratching, etc can be dangerous. I would (and have) let my DD be watched by HIV+ adults, but they are responsible and KNOW what not to do.

BIG difference.


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## flibbertigibbet (Sep 9, 2003)

Learning begins before we know it.
I would, with supervision; and here's why...
My daughter needs to learn about safe, loving and respectful interaction with the rest of the world -- the sooner the better.
Chances are, that the HIV child is also in the process of learninghow to interact with other children.
Wouldn't it be great to help make life easier and more accepting for somebody whose whole life is going to revolve in one way or another around the concepts of exclusion and separation?


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:

Wouldn't it be great to help make life easier and more accepting for somebody whose whole life is going to revolve in one way or another around the concepts of exclusion and separation?


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## lilylove (Apr 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit*
There is a big different between riding horses and playing with an HIV+ child. You are an adult and know the precautions to take when riding horses... I'd assume you wouldn't put your young daughter on a horse with no helmet and just let her ride off alone until she was old enough and knew what she was doing, would you?

Young children however are not responsible like adults and don't understand that biting, scratching, etc can be dangerous. I would (and have) let my DD be watched by HIV+ adults, but they are responsible and KNOW what not to do.

BIG difference.









My point was that there is a risk (however slight)in sooo many things that our children do.
I don't think that Dd playing with a HIV+ child and doing something like you described are really the same.








I would be the responsible adult and watch my child, she is 2 1/2, thats what I do when she plays with any other kids.
Sandy


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

I am pretty sure that you are more likely to be killed in a car accident on your way to the playdate than by contracting HIV.

I am also pretty sure that a good majority of parents with HIV+ children watch them closely in situations where they are with other kids and are aware of any risks.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

In the interest of education and not spreading misinformation I have to address this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveChild421*
The issue here is this- if you ARE aware that a child has HIV would you be ok with your child playing with them? for me, no way unless both children were old enough to understand FULLY what behaviors could result in my child contracting a 100% LETHAL disease.

HIV is NOT a 100% lethal disease and in fact there are many people who have been and currently are HIV+ for most of their life and have not developed AIDS. I know someone on year 20.

Does that mean I don't care of my child contracts it, or I don't take it seriously? No. But I don't want fo scare my child either. I will relay the facts to my child and the fact is kids don't get HIV by playing with + kids.

And as for biting:

Simple contact between blood and intact skin is not enough to transmit HIV. Three conditions are necessary for transmission:

* The blood must be fresh.
* There must be a sufficient quantity.
* It must have a route of entry into the bloodstream of the uninfected person.

Biting often concerns parents, but there has *never* been a confirmed case of transmission by biting. To risk transmission, a child infected with HIV would have to have fresh blood in his mouth and break the skin of an uninfected child. An uninfected biter would have a theoretical risk of exposure only if he broke the skin of a child infected with HIV and drew blood into his mouth. Such events are very unlikely.

That's from: http://www.cfc-efc.ca/docs/cccf/rs033_en.htm


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kinipela79*
I am pretty sure that you are more likely to be killed in a car accident on your way to the playdate than by contracting HIV.

:LOL Yup. Thanks for putting things in perspective.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
And that makes us scumbags?







I think you are all being naive about the risks here. .









I must have missed the post where someone called people saying no scumbags. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but how about we keep the perceptions of and name-calling to a minimum, eh?

To answer the OP, Dh and I have discussed it, because of this thread. Our consensus is that we would. Would we be more cautious or watch the kids together a little closer? Probably. I mean, there are risks in everything we do in life, and anytime we can lessen the risk, obviously we will. But I wouldn't keep my son from playing with someone because of risks. I mean, heck, everytime I put him in the car, I take a risk because of other people and I'm certainly not going to stay home all day, every day because of that.

For those of you who say no, what if your child has already been playing with an HIV+ child and you find out after the fact (which would be the most likely scenario), how would you explain that to your child? Not trying to start anything, just curious.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

and knowing a close personal friend who contracted HIV from a "low risk" behavior- giving oral sex 3 times to an HIV pos man-
How is this low risk? Isn't it drilled into our heads that unprotected oral, anal or vaginal intercourse is a high risk behavior?

A family friend of ours died of AIDS a few years ago. My best friend from high school has HIV. Still doesn't mean I'm going to discriminate against any friends my children want to have.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

No. Nada. No way. Forget it. I'm with meoww on this one. Too many factors involved for me to feel even remotely safe with this one.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveChild421*
I would never let a child who is still in the biting, licking, stratching, crazy behaviors out of no where, too young to explain how HUGE and horrible HIV is to them phase play with a child who I KNOW to have HIV. .

If I were the parent of a child with HIV, I would probably work hard to avoid the biters--there is some nasty bacteria in the human mouth! I imagine that would be pretty dangerous for the child with HIV!


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Greaseball I personally don't consider _any_ sexual contact with an HIV+ person "low risk" but according to thismama:

Quote:

Even giviing oral sex to someone who is HIV+ is widely considered to be low risk unless you have open sores, and you are talking about someone ejaculating into your mouth. Getting a scratch or a child's bite seems pretty insignificant comparatively.
sunnmama: I would hope that parents of HIV+ kids would make sure their kids don't play with biters, etc or put others at risk in any way- but the real world is far from ideal and kids will do crazy things- I know kids who eat each other's scabs on dares, kiss each others bleeding wounds, etc you just never know.

It is about risk vs benefit- I know that driving probably is more dangerous than letting kids play with HIV+ kids, but the thing is I can't avoid driving- I can avoid letting my toddler play with an HIV+ kid very easily. There are plenty of other kids out there. Again, it may not be "fair" to the HIV+ child but this isn't about race or political affiliation- it's about THE WORST DISEASE OUT THERE!!! This isn't the sniffles or something.

If I found out at any point that a child was HIV+ no my young toddler would not be allowed to continue playing with that child- as I said before if they were older obviously its a non-issue. I don't know how I would explain the complexities of this to a toddler but I think I would just say that so and so is sick and can't play with you anymore.

Whoever said HIV or AIDS isn't lethal- yeah I know people can live for 20+ years with the disease but they all eventually die of complications from it before their time- there is no way I think any risk when it comes to contracting HIV is ok- I don't want my child to subsist on AZT or other drugs for years and never be able to do things they normally would. I see the pain my friend is going through everyday!!! I cry for him, I don't know what to do, I know I'm going to lose him before he was supposed to go- so yes I may be in the minority but I still take HIV VERY seriously.

I don't want what I see my friend going through to happen to my child and no amount of risk is "insignificant" to me when it comes to MY child. No I can't keep him in a bubble, but I can reduce risks that I see- and him having a playmate that is HIV+ is not a risk I see as one I can take- if I could avoid driving I would, if I could move to a little farm in the middle of no where I would- but I have to live the life I have and there is no way I would put my kids at risk- no matter how "small" when it comes to this disease that has ravaged my friend.

Did anyone see on the news today that they have now discovered a new drug-resistant extra virulent strain of HIV in a man in the US- they said it appears to be spreading among gay men who use crystal meth. I know people who have died of AIDS painfully and slowly- sorry if I can't be PC and let them play with HIV+ kids- I think I would have an anxiety attack trying to watch them closely and make absolutely sure they don't do anything that could put them at risk.

Also, has anyone seen the research and stats on condoms and HIV- much of what I have seen appears to point to the fact that even consistent condom use does not prevent HIV from being transmitted in all cases- yes "low risk" but still- who wants to play Russian roulette- and what about the condom breaking? My dh agrees- he has seen his dear friend suffer from AIDS and has said he would forbid our kids from dating an HIV + person- I just can't go that far- but I would hope that after considering the limitations HIV puts on a relationship and the risks involved they wouldn't want to date an HIV+ person

I am normally so PC- I guess what I have experienced in reality has just blown any desire to be PC out of the water for me on this issue- forgive me- I don't mean to offend- I have just seen it up close and personal and my heart breaks about my friend and this disease that has robbed his life from him.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

To the OP, I would have absolutely no problem having my children play with a HIV+ child, nor would I have an issue with my teenager dating an HIV+ boy.

To LoveChild421, if HIV is ultimately lethal, please can you explain this to me because it has confused me no end for ages:

Normally and traditionally, antibodies indicate that the body has mounted a successful defense against a germ. The germ "failed." I was under the impression that the presence of antibodies only signifies that some germ or other foreign substance has been recognized by the body, which has then tried to ward it off with an immune defense.

However, current AIDs "wisdom" asserts that antibodies to HIV indicate that the person would sooner or later die. This strikes me as an horrendous piece of reasoning, starting with the bald and unproven assertion that HIV was lethal; therefore, antibodies would do no good.

Then there is the so-called vaccine. Scientists are (or at least taking about) coming up with a vaccine against HIV. What would that vaccine do? It would nudge the body into producing antibodies against HIV.

But if HIV was actually lethal, that would do no good at all we would all be HIV+ and doomed to die.









In other words, if you got these antibodies because HIV entered the body, you're a gonner. But if the same antibodies were produced by the vaccine, you would be immune to HIV. TBH, that medical assumption strikes me as BS.

The NIH is on record as saying that those who volunteered for a clinical trial of the HIV vaccine would be given a special letter from NIH afterwards. This letter would essentially say: If this person ever tests positive for HIV, disregard the test; the antibodies were produced by the vaccine and the person is immune to HIV.

How insane can it get? Personally, I think an HIV test is a death sentence because of all the lethal drugs a person with HIV antibodies is required to take. Because of this I would never willing get an HIV test (although I have had two, one when pregnant with DD#2 because my midwife requested it and one for my "green card" -- negative), and I would never get any of my children tested either, I'm not about to hand them a "death sentence" on a plate.


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## mommystinch (May 18, 2004)

uccomama,

No one will force an HIV+ person to take any drugs. The choice is theirs to make. In fact, many people who want to take them can't afford them. They are extremely expensive. I think the most important reason to know your HIV status is so that you can take the precautions to avoid infecting another person. As long as you are already taking those precautions, I guess there is no reason to worry about it.

As for dying from HIV.... a person does not die from HIV. HIV will progress to AIDS, and the person will eventually die from complications due to AIDS. AIDS basically destroys your immune system, and leaves you open to infections and diseases that would otherwise be relatively harmless. Therefore, a simple cold can become a death sentence.

Antibodies are present when your body is fighting something. They do not necesarily (sp?) mean that the body has won the fight. As for the vaccine, they have been trying to develop one for years now, and have not had any luck. Honestly, I do not ever see a vaccine coming our for HIV. I think the only way it will be eradicated is through education and testing. Many people pass HIV because they do not know they are positive, or do not know how it is transmitted. It is transmitted through blood, semen, vaginal fluids, and breastmilk.

I would have no problem with my dd playing with a HIV+ child. Even if the child was bleeding, the blood would have to be consumed by my dd, or it would have to enter into an open wound on her body. Both of those cases are highly unlikely.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommystinch*
*uccomama,

No one will force an HIV+ person to take any drugs. The choice is theirs to make. In fact, many people who want to take them can't afford them. They are extremely expensive. I think the most important reason to know your HIV status is so that you can take the precautions to avoid infecting another person. As long as you are already taking those precautions, I guess there is no reason to worry about it.*


Really, tell that to the HIV+ children of the Incarnation Children's Center, NYC, who were force fed toxic AIDs drugs. Here's a short excerpt from an article by Liam Scheff of the Observer:

Quote:

In New York's Washington Heights is a 4-story brick building called Incarnation Children's Center (ICC). This former convent houses a revolving stable of children who've been removed from their own homes by the Agency for Child Services. These children are black, Hispanic and poor. Many of their mothers had a history of drug abuse and have died. Once taken into ICC, the children become subjects of drug trials sponsored by NIAID (National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Disease, a division of the NIH), NICHD (the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development) in conjunction with some of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies - GlaxoSmithKline, Pfizer, Genentech, Chiron/Biocine and others.

The drugs being given to the children are toxic - they're known to cause genetic mutation, organ failure, bone marrow death, bodily deformations, brain damage and fatal skin disorders. If the children refuse the drugs, they're held down and have them force fed. If the children continue to resist, they're taken to Columbia Presbyterian hospital where a surgeon puts a plastic tube through their abdominal wall into their stomachs. From then on, the drugs are injected directly into their intestines.

Quote:

*As for dying from HIV.... a person does not die from HIV. HIV will progress to AIDS, and the person will eventually die from complications due to AIDS. AIDS basically destroys your immune system, and leaves you open to infections and diseases that would otherwise be relatively harmless. Therefore, a simple cold can become a death sentence.*

I know no one dies from HIV. But your (mainstream science) hypothosis that HIV causes AIDS has never been proven. Here is a link to a short article on Peter Duesberg: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/tbcould.htm. Of course Duesberg was discredited and he went onto cancer research and has done extremely well and is up for a Nobel prize, so this guy is no quack.

And what about the people who have been diagnosed with HIV and AIDS and still live, years later, in a state of great health, who haven't taken the drugs, who haven't psychologically caved in to the diagnosis, who reject the whole medical AIDS paradigm?

Quote:

*Antibodies are present when your body is fighting something. They do not necesarily (sp?) mean that the body has won the fight.*

About antibody testing: they never get down to finding the actual virus in the body, _just the antibodies_, and they never touch on the question of how many such germs are actually in the body. If you only have sixteen germs of a particular kind, they are not going to be able to cause any harm at all. You need a whole bunch. Perhaps millions.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Okay, if HIV is not very dangerous (or at least, less dangerous than the drugs used to treat it), why is it such a problem in Africa?

Because, as far as I know, most people over there aren't getting the drugs, so they should therefore be the picture of health. If that's the case, then I sure wasted a hell of a lot of $$ and time in activism then. (And yes, I know about people who seem to have a natural resistance. However, they are not the majority of the population.)

Where is this information coming from, exactly?

It's one thing to have the drugs be toxic when given to *children*--that's kind of a no brainer. Lots of drugs do that. But I'm sorry, when I hear someone say that HIV is "no big deal", it reminds me of the people who say that condoms don't protect against STDs. It might have a grain of truth to it, but it's quite a bit misleading.

But you know, probably a discussion about if HIV is, in fact, a serious danger to someone who has it (and if we should encourage everyone to reject drug treatment) probably belongs on another thread.


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

Without a second thought.

As someone who has had a lot of involvement in the gay/les/bi/tran community I know enough about HIV and AIDS to know that a HIV+ child is not a threat to my little one. The only thing I would worry about is something my cousin/best friend and I did when I was younger and that' become "blood sisters" (you know, two kids have a cut and they mix blood) but that's something I would think the HIV+ child (and mine too hopefully) would know not to do.

I asked my df the same question and his immediate reaction was a blank stare and "well yea, why not?"

I think a child should have friends based on who they are not what they have.


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## allbrightmama (Aug 8, 2004)

For me the answer is yes. I think it is safe to assume he already has. Why would a known risk be more dangerous than an unknown risk? I do not control the world we live in but I can control my reaction to it. I refuse to live in fear and I don't want my children to either.

I was told that circumcision would protect my son from HIV. My response was that education would work a heck of a lot better. Universal precautions are universal and we use them. No fear. No discrimination. Just normal healthy respectful behaviors.


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## CherylE (Oct 9, 2003)

Right now no - several reasons -
First off - for the sake of the HIV+ child as my kids are sick a lot. By a lot - I mean someone has been sick with at least some level of cold for over 6 months. By the time one cold goes all the way through everyone - someone else has come down with something else. The twins were preemie and they don't have good immune systems and come down with something a few days after we leave the house every time. Kids with HIV/AIDS don't have good immune systems so exposure to my children (who have colds right now a lot) could get them very, very sick.

I would not take my children around ANYONE who is immunocomprimised even if my children appear to be well. I feel very badly because we had a friends who had kidney failure and was on dialysis and we took our children over to visit him a lot (NEVER when obviously sick) but kids are contaigious sometimes a day or so BEFORE showing symptoms and the last time we visited him in 2002 our children came down sick the next morning. He got the same illness later that week, was admitted to hospital where he died. We felt absolutely horrible.









Next - yes - I would be fearful with my children NOW at the ages they are playing with HIV+ children. I have 5 kids 5 and under and I don't think that *I* could supervise well enough (esp as I do have a biter - Maddy is not that verbal and has had a lot of adjustment with the twins esp now that they are mobile). So - I would be scared now to let them play with an HIV+ child. Now when my children are older and probably even my 5 year only WITH supervision and explanation - yes - just not unsupervisied (I did the "blood brothers" stuff too as a child and other stuff - so I would want an adult supervision). Yes - I know anyone they are in contact with could be and I do try really hard to teach them about proper precautions in general with bodily fluids because you really do never know. I definately don't quiz the moms of the other children at church, children's choir, ballet, or soccer.

This question made me think - It's theoretical for us right now. We don't know anyone that we know of that has HIV. Besides - we're not managing playdates with ANYONE at the moment. However - I do have a friend with an immunocomprimised child that I haven't seen in over 3 years because of the risk to her child. We just e-mail and phone occasionally.


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## PM (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm not going to read all the replies.

Hell yes I would let my child play with yours! Hell yah! If you could make it all the way over here we could get together every day!


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## flibbertigibbet (Sep 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherylE*

I would not take my children around ANYONE who is immunocomprimised even if my children appear to be well. I feel very badly because we had a friends who had kidney failure and was on dialysis and we took our children over to visit him a lot (NEVER when obviously sick) but kids are contaigious sometimes a day or so BEFORE showing symptoms and the last time we visited him in 2002 our children came down sick the next morning. He got the same illness later that week, was admitted to hospital where he died. We felt absolutely horrible.









I am so sorry to hear this!







Believe me, I know how scary it can be. My younger daughter has End Stage Renal Disease ie: kidney failure (also requiring nightly dialysis. She is now 20 months old. When she was 6 months old, we took her to a friends holiday party where a few kids had colds. The next morning when we got up, she was grunting. We took her to the pediatrician who put her on O2 and sent us, by ambulance to the nearest Children's Hospital. She had immediately developed Pnuemonia secondary to Para-influenza which also collapsed part of 1 lung. We spent Christmas day waiting to find out whether she'd live. I lived in the ICU for 3 weeks and then out in recovery with her for another month as she proceeded to suffer from repeated hospital acquired illnesses. Kajsa is still trying to catch up with physical developmental delays from that time. No one in our family will ever be as naive or innocent.
That said...there is absolutely no way that I would *ever* deny her the ability to play with other children. I feel this so strongly that I am shaking as I type. She has so much to go through in her life. I cannot deny her the happiness that social interaction brings. Does this mean that I would be careless about it? -- No. All of our friends know to let me know if their children are sick. If we're going to a mutual friend's home, they'll call so that I can stay home. There are things I'd never do: leave Kajsa at a mall drop & shop, visit a friend or relative in a hospital with her, etc. I NEVER leave her side. That's just life.
So, my wandering and very long winded point is: more than likely any HIV+ kiddo's parent/caregiver is so used to taking extreme precautions that you more than likely wouldn't have as much to worry about as you might think.
The best plan might simply be frank, open and straightforward communication with all responsible adults involved. That would allow for brainstorming & problem solving. Plus, then the lines of communication are open & you don't need to worry about it being awkward later if you were to think of new concerns or suggestions.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

I would allow my 4yo dd to play with any child that she decided to be friends with. As long as the other child was kind and played well with my dd, HIV+ or not. I would have no problems joining a play group/pre-school that had a HIV+ child also attending. But how would I know that information?
How do any of us know that information. Do we approach every playing situation as if a HIV+ child is present? If you are afraid, then maybe
you should be.
Life has risks, it isn't like I allow dd to play with knifes and run in the street, but with the activities my daughter takes part with at her pre-school I don't see how she would be in any danger of an HIV+ child also participating. They color, do crafts, have stories read to them. I don't see the harm.
Dd is a rough player, toyboy if you will. She enjoys tumbling and pushing a little bit (normal kid play being watched, not violent play) while at gymnastics. Although I have never witnessed her bite another child or be bitten by another child. She has had her share of scrapes and bumps but never by the actions of another child. Maybe I would be more careful if she was younger than 18 months, before she knew not to pull on others hair, or grab too hard. But then again, I was careful when dd was that age with all children. Sitting on the floor playing with them.
Personal choice I feel that each parent would have to make on their own. I can't say others choice to say no is wrong, just slightly sad for the children missing out on playing and making new friendships.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
Okay, if HIV is not very dangerous (or at least, less dangerous than the drugs used to treat it), why is it such a problem in Africa?

Because, as far as I know, most people over there aren't getting the drugs, so they should therefore be the picture of health. If that's the case, then I sure wasted a hell of a lot of $$ and time in activism then. (And yes, I know about people who seem to have a natural resistance. However, they are not the majority of the population.)

Where is this information coming from, exactly?

It's one thing to have the drugs be toxic when given to *children*--that's kind of a no brainer. Lots of drugs do that. But I'm sorry, when I hear someone say that HIV is "no big deal", it reminds me of the people who say that condoms don't protect against STDs. It might have a grain of truth to it, but it's quite a bit misleading.

But you know, probably a discussion about if HIV is, in fact, a serious danger to someone who has it (and if we should encourage everyone to reject drug treatment) probably belongs on another thread.

Well, they don't test much for HIV in Africa, they don't have the resources, so they base their AIDS diagnosis on the following criteria: fever, cough, weight loss and diarrhea for 30 days, well. I have been coughing for over 30 days now (I suspect I have whooping cough), my tummy has been upset for a while, and I had a fever a week ago, and I have lost some weight, so I guess if I was living in Africa I would have AIDS. When they tested AIDS patients in Africa (according to the above criteria) 50% were HIV-. Just for the record, I don't believe Africa needs a dime of AIDS relief, they need money for food (and not "white man's" food -- but assistance to be able to grow their own native foods), clean water, and basic low tech, nurturing healthcare.

If you have any interest at all in the "other side" of the AIDS issue, I recommend you take at look here: http://www.sumeria.net/aids.html

For a much shorter article written by Christine Maggiore go here: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cmknow.htm

Christina is HIV+ and mother of two boys (IIRC) which she has not had tested, and also EN'ed, she has been featured in two articles in Mothering.

One more thing AIDS drugs are toxic to EVERYONE. AZT is a chemotherapy drug which was never used to treat cancer because it was too toxic. But obviously not toxic enough for those tested HIV+.

Oh, if you take anymore, the HIV test is a fraud too! see here.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama*
Just for the record, I don't believe Africa needs a dime of AIDS relief, they need money for food (and not "white man's" food -- but assistance to be able to grow their own native foods), clean water, and basic low tech, nurturing healthcare.

While I agree with you that the number of AIDS cases in sub-Saharan Africa is most likely overreported because, as you said, the resources to test everyone who exhibits symptoms just aren't available, I have to strenuously disagree that African nations don't need money for AIDS care and relief. My son is from Ethiopia. Children there who are eligible for international adoption are tested (several times) for HIV. The number of children who have tested HIV+ has increased dramatically, shockingly, frighteningly in the past decade. AIDS *IS* a huge problem in Ethiopia, and one that the Ethiopian government has NO HOPE of dealing with on its own. The government's entire annual health services budget isn't even large enough to care for Ethiopia's orphans for one month. Ethiopia desperately NEEDS money for AIDS relief.

It's not an either/or situation. Ethiopia needs money for AIDS relief AND for agricultural development on its own terms.

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Namaste!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What Africa needs are some missionaries that don't tell absolute lies about AIDS. We learned in class that some missionaries are telling them that condoms actually cause AIDS because they have "worms" in them that transmit the virus. Also, someone should tell them that raping virgins is not a way to get rid of the virus. That would be a lot more useful than all the abstinence talk. They are not going to be abstinent, and in some African traditions, fertility must be proven before marriage.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
The number of children who have tested HIV+ has increased dramatically, shockingly, frighteningly in the past decade. AIDS *IS* a huge problem in Ethiopia, and one that the Ethiopian government has NO HOPE of dealing with on its own. The government's entire annual health services budget isn't even large enough to care for Ethiopia's orphans for one month. Ethiopia desperately NEEDS money for AIDS relief.

It's not an either/or situation. Ethiopia needs money for AIDS relief AND for agricultural development on its own terms.

Namaste!

But what are these poor children going to get for their relief money....toxic drugs that kill them. For example the NIH/Nevirapine scandal, gosh I don't even know what to call it, where mothers and babies are given a drug known to cause liver damage, death and a rash so horrible that it needs to be discontinued immediately.

See here.

Africa doesn't need that kind of help. Sorry to continue to hijack your thread. I will shut up now


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Back on the topic of contracting the disease from another child...maybe someone will find this email I got interesting?

*Thank you for contacting the CDC National Prevention Information Network.

Jennifer,

There has never been a documented case of transmission from child to child. Casual play or even rough play is not considered a risk for HIV. If you would like to read more information about HIV, you can visit or contact:

CDC HIV Website http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/dhap.htm
CDC National STD and AIDS Hotline, 24/7, 1-800-342-2437 or [email protected]
ASHA HIV FAQ http://www.ashastd.org/stdfaqs/aidshiv.html
Please feel free to contact us if you need further assistance.

CMN 0322

CDC's National Prevention Information Network (NPIN)
Monday - Friday 9:00 am - 8:00 pm EST

800-458-5231 English/Spanish
919-361-4892 International
800-243-7012 TTY
919-361-4884 International TTY
888-282-7681 FAX on Demand
919-361-4887 International FAX on Demand

NPIN Web site: http://www.cdcnpin.org
Email us: [email protected]*

Now for those that are saying that they just can't see putting their child in a situation where they could control the risk...

Quote:

It is about risk vs benefit- I know that driving probably is more dangerous than letting kids play with HIV+ kids, but the thing is I can't avoid driving- I can avoid letting my toddler play with an HIV+ kid very easily. There are plenty of other kids out there. Again, it may not be "fair" to the HIV+ child but this isn't about race or political affiliation- it's about THE WORST DISEASE OUT THERE!!! This isn't the sniffles or something.
Do you let your children eat hamburgers because there is that nasty Ecoli thing to worry about, Salmonella for chicken, non vaxers risk death by chicken pox, measles and whatnot, vaxers risk death by bad vaccine reaction, and if you were to look at the amount of communicable diseases out there that your child could catch you would be shocked. And these are all risks you can avoid, right? And these are all things that actually have been documented! So before you say "screw you HIV+ child stay away from my kid" maybe remember that there are many many things you do daily that have a risk of death for your children.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

How can people not avoid driving?

I am also annoyed by the assumption that those of us who would allow their children to play with an HIV+ child are just being pc or taking risks with our children's lives.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

ok so let me get this all straight-

-HIV/AIDS is no big deal- maybe not even a real disease according to some and Africa doesn't have an AIDS epidemic going on???







:

-and we might as well let our small kids play with HIV+ kids because hell we drive them to their Grandma's so we can go to work to support them and hell we feed them the food we can afford and make decisions regarding vaccines, and they go to school where they might catch chickenpox- so hey why not add the risk of contracting AIDS to the mix- why not?









with that logic I shouldn't even buckle up when I drive- I'm already risking it anyway huh?

NO, there is a big difference in the risks that we encounter in life that are virtually unavoidable and the risks that we can easily avoid- I suppose I could WALK 15 miles a day to school and work and such but really let's keep it within the realm of reality.

Keeping my small child from playing with an HIV+ child- easy I just don't take my kid around that kid- once again this is about KNOWN risk- I can't do anything about the kids I don't know about- but when I am AWARE of a risk- I act accordingly and for me that means not exposing my young toddler to HIV.

My mom told me about AIDS when I was in preschool and that you shouldn't ever touch anyones blood, etc- but you know what? I still had a "blood sister" and I still did crazy things like help my friends pull their teeth which bled all over the place without thinking about that open wound on my hand from when I just fell down. My mom couldn't watch me at all times- if these kids I played with had had HIV I probably would have gotten it. I know the risk on any given day in any given situation is small but all it takes it one day with one right situation for you to end up with an HIV+ child. The CDC can tell me this has never happened to their knowledge, they also tell me there is no link between vaccines and autism, allergies, etc. and that it's find to inject newborns with Hep. B vaccine- I don't buy that either. I am taking 3 statistics courses right now and I can tell you that it takes a whole lot of cases for something to be "proven" or considered statistically significant- that doesn't mean cases don't exist- just that there aren't enough to "matter" or be "conclusive".

I wish I could tell my friend who has HIV that it isn't a real disease- that his body has antibodies to it and that means he's a-ok- I wish I could tell him that "hey it's no big deal you could live for a long time"- but when you SEE him- you know HIV isn't just some myth or something that isn't a big deal- he went a year at least before starting drugs and in that year he had all sorts of mystery illnesses, weird growths, etc. NO ONE can tell me HIV isn't what's killing my friend.


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## bikruca (Mar 7, 2004)

simple answer: yes of course.. i don't want to teach ignorance


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Yes, I would. However, I would have to educate my child on universal procautions if I hadnt done so already.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

who ever said that HIV is no big deal? There are people who should still be in my life that aren't because of it.

Quote:

-and we might as well let our small kids play with HIV+ kids because hell we drive them to their Grandma's so we can go to work to support them and hell we feed them the food we can afford and make decisions regarding vaccines, and they go to school where they might catch chickenpox- so hey why not add the risk of contracting AIDS to the mix- why not?
obviously you didn't really catch what I was saying. I'm saying we all make daily decisions that carry a risk that's higher than contracting HIV from another child. I never said anyone was good or bad for making them and we gotta do what we gotta do (and hopefully in an educated manner) but it doesn't change the fact that life is chock full of risks and for me, my child contracting HIV from another child isn't one that I am worried about.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

My mom told me about AIDS when I was in preschool and that you shouldn't ever touch anyones blood, etc- but you know what? I still had a "blood sister" and I still did crazy things like help my friends pull their teeth which bled all over the place without thinking about that open wound on my hand from when I just fell down.
I had a blood brother in high school. He was a virgin who had never injected drugs. What's the risk there? For someone to give you HIV they have to have it, which means they have to engage in high risk behavior themselves.

Most of us have said they won't "require" all their children's playmates to be tested for disease. So who do you go about rejecting as your child's friend? Which children would you demand have an HIV test before playing with your child? Children of gay parents? Children from other countries (especially Africa)? Children from poor families, or who live in unclean conditions? Children who just "look sick"? If one of your child's friends gets sexually molested, do they have to have an HIV test before they are welcome in your home again?

What about hepatitis? That can be spread a lot easier than HIV can. It can also kill you. There are all sorts of diseases you can get from blood and other bodily fluids.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

Most of us have said they won't "require" all their children's playmates to be tested for disease. So who do you go about rejecting as your child's friend? Which children would you demand have an HIV test before playing with your child? Children of gay parents? Children from other countries (especially Africa)? Children from poor families, or who live in unclean conditions? Children who just "look sick"? If one of your child's friends gets sexually molested, do they have to have an HIV test before they are welcome in your home again?
Good questions.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
What about hepatitis? That can be spread a lot easier than HIV can. It can also kill you. There are all sorts of diseases you can get from blood and other bodily fluids.

Yep!

My father is a retired physician and used to teach medical classes. He always "got" students on the following question:

"You have a patient who you know is HIV+, what special precautions do you take when treating them?"

The correct answer is NONE. There are no "special" precautions--each patient should be treated with the utmost regard to safety and sterility.

I think we should treat all children that same way--if there is blood: be careful--use gloves, clean up with bleach, etc. These are common sense first-aid issues, which if applied to all situations, would make having HIV+ people around a _non-issue_ .


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

I sure would.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

The correct answer is NONE. There are no "special" precautions--each patient should be treated with the utmost regard to safety and sterility.
I heard that Christine Maggiore was refused hospital admission for labor and delivery because she would not agree to take AZT. I don't get it. If someone has HIV, aren't they still contagious if they take AZT? If an AIDS patient is taking AZT, is it OK to have unprotected sex with them?


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I had a blood brother in high school. He was a virgin who had never injected drugs. What's the risk there? For someone to give you HIV they have to have it, which means they have to engage in high risk behavior themselves.

That just not true... I have a couple friends who are HIV+ and never engaged in high risk activities... just because someone never does anything *high risk* does NOT mean they can't get it. And what about children who are born HIV+? What high risk behavior did they engage in?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit*
That just not true... I have a couple friends who are HIV+ and never engaged in high risk activities... just because someone never does anything *high risk* does NOT mean they can't get it. And what about children who are born HIV+? What high risk behavior did they engage in?

If you have HIV, either you engaged in high risk behavior or someone else did and then passed it to you. I'm guessing your friends were either born to HIV+ moms, got it through unsafe hospital procedures, or got it through sex or needle sharing.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amydidit*
That just not true... I have a couple friends who are HIV+ and never engaged in high risk activities... just because someone never does anything *high risk* does NOT mean they can't get it. And what about children who are born HIV+? What high risk behavior did they engage in?


So how did your friends aquire HIV? Do they know the test is not actually reliable; that there is no "Gold Standard" for HIV? Also:

Quote:

Cross-reactions with non-HIV antibodies have been documented in the presence of the following: First, other retroviruses besides HIV. For instance, the flu virus - that's right, the common cold virus. Now what does that mean? That means that you can get a cold, be a healthy individual, a healthy gay, a healthy heterosexual. You go in and you get an HIV antibody test. The antibodies to your flu virus or your cold virus could cross-react and show that you're HIV positive. You would freak out. You'd wonder how you got infected. And then immediately you'd be put on AZT and then guess what? You would end up with all kinds of immuno-depression.

Now, it also cross reacts with, guess what? Herpes simplex II. That's right. All of you out there who have Herpes simplex -- what is that, about half the population? Half this radio audience? Yep! Half the population has herpes. Well, herpes simplex II can cross-react with the HIV antibody test and make you "positive."

Hepatitis B virus. All Mycobacterial species including tuberculosis, leprosy, and M*avium. Vaccinations like the flu vaccine, the hepatitis vaccine. Even pregnancy itself changes your hormones so that you can cross react and create a positive antibody test. Blood transfusions.*.*. hemophilia .*.*. blood-clotting factor .*.*. sperm. That's correct: sperm also.


Other causes of cross reactions are auto-immune diseases like lupus, arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis. Then there is Sogrin's disease, cancer such as multiple myeloma, alcoholic hepatitis, alcoholism, liver disease, natural occurring antibodies such as antibodies to nuclear antigens, human T-cells, mitochondria, cellular actin, tapeworms, parasites, malaria, malnutrition.

http://www.sumeria.net/aids/garynu2.html

HIV Test

And I said I was going to shut up.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

My first response was yes, why wouldn't I allow it in this day and age...
thinking it over further, it would probably be a case-by-case situation if I'm being very honest about myself and how I make decisions.
It would depend more on the children involved and the parent's attitude. If the parents are open about it, answer my questions, and seem to want to put me at ease then I'd feel more comfortable about that situation than a situation where the parent is evasive, defensive or automatically puts me down for even having concerns. I don't like making asumptions on what everyone knows or does. I do have to look out for my own dd regardless of feelings and being pc. I'd probably do research, ask questions and talk to dh before making a decision. We'd do the same with something like horseback riding btw.
My dd is 4 and never was part of a playgroup. She isn't very physically agressive with other children and is rarely sick (not fully vaxed btw). If the kids involved were visibly ill or very rough with each other I would probably be more concerned about health than a situation where the kids look healthy and are playing cards or on the swings regardless of medical diagnosis.
Dd is 4 and I haven't contemplated her dating anyone yet. I think it'll be more up to her than me when she is that age (many years from now... like 30 maybe).


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Of course.

As for risk and rewards - the risk of teaching them to avoid people who are different is a risk whereas there is just about no risk of HIV being transmitted in a playgroup.

I saw the subject and only read the last & first thread (just don't have time to do the whole thread tonight) so advance apologies if I am repeating something that has been discussed....I would be very concerned that my kids would pass a cold or flu onto an HIV+ child that could become very serious given their compromised immune system and would want to talk in great detail with their mom about increasing the normal germ protection routine.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildmonkeys*
As for risk and rewards - the risk of teaching them to avoid people who are different is a risk whereas there is just about no risk of HIV being transmitted in a playgroup.

Well said. Yes, I cannot say that there is absolutely zero risk of transmission. I can say that the risk of transmission is low low low low low. And the risk of teaching intolerance or fear is pretty high.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveChild421*
-and we might as well let our small kids play with HIV+ kids because hell we drive them to their Grandma's so we can go to work to support them and hell we feed them the food we can afford and make decisions regarding vaccines, and they go to school where they might catch chickenpox- so hey why not add the risk of contracting AIDS to the mix- why not?









But the point is, there are lots and lots (horribly many) incidences every year where children die in car accidents, and many cases each year of food poisoning, vax injury/death, etc.

But there are *no* documented cases of HIV transfer from child-to-child thru play.

The former is an actual risk. The latter is an imagined risk. And the irony is, we (as a culture) are more fearful and avoidant of the imagined risk.


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## Missy (Oct 22, 2002)

I just asked my dh this question and he looked at me for a long time and finally said, "Wow. HIV+, huh? Hmmm...why not?" And then, "How do we know they don't already?" And, "Seriously, what's the risk?"

And we do have a child who is considered to have an immune-deficiency. I take risks everyday with him. Going to any play group, any playground, any grocery store is a risk with him. As sunnmama said, those are real risks. He's in far more danger from someone's sticky dairy-infested hands than he is from a child with HIV. But, I can't keep him in a bubble; I do what I can to keep him safe wherever we are.

I don't see a lot of hatred on this thread (although, again, I'm still appalled about that grenade comment.); I just see a lot of fear. I was going to say ignorance, but I think people can know the facts and still act illogically out of the fear that has been so strongly perpetuated.

Missy


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Of course I would.

I just read through this whole thread, and I would like to know:
THose of you who said "no," how do you deal with encounters with children or adults whose HIV status is unknown? Do you never allow your child to play with others?

Also, so many of the "reasons" for not allowing it apply to older children (blood brothers, loose teeth, etc). With this reasoning, you should feel safer with a toddler than a school-age child, unless there truly is no amount of education, information or logic that will affect your decision making.

To the OP:







. Congratulations on your new child! I hope you can find a group of nice, informed moms and kids soon.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

You know, I did a little research on the person who's been writing the articles about how HIV doesn't cause AIDS, and how HIV is no big deal and can totally be treated with nutrition and such. His name is Gary Null.

Here are some links about him:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

Note: Quackwatch is a VERY HEAVILY medical biased site. But it does give a basic rundown of Null's credentials and some past activities.

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/05/21/null/

Note: The author of this article is an HIV+ person who takes the AZT cocktail, but whose friend followed Null's plan. Inherent bias there too, but also a good rundown of what the program (and the costs) are.

So...I dunno. It's not like the pharm. industry is primed for sainthood (boy howdy, it is SO not), but this guy could have some obvious ulterior motives too.

Too bad that most public universities here are in bed with corporate interests. Though it's not so everywhere--personally, I think some REAL research, double blind studies, would be nice.

I guess something about this raises red flags for me, but it's just personal bias. I had an uncle who discovered he had early stages prostate cancer--he decided to try alternative therapies for awhile (which actually improved the rest of him, healthwise), but when the cancer got worse he decided to go to a treatment guru in Mexico, and spend more $$ than he ever would have paid for chemo, and by the time he gave up and got back the cancer was in his bones and he died horribly and painfully.

I DO believe in non-institutional/medical therapies...but I think when someone is very rabidly against other treatments other than their own, and they're trying to sell you something, you have to be careful about what they say. Whether they're an MD or a vitamin salesperson or a faith healer.

I'm going to bow out of this subject though. Since the articles of this guy have been posted multiple times, though, I thought it was important to know a little more about him.

****

On topic:

I think I definitely fall into the situational camp on this one. I do not allow my children to hang out with all HIV- children, so why the heck would I allow them to play with a kid just because they DO have HIV?

And if it's wrong to have twinges of fear when you are confronted with weighing the advantages/disadvantages of a given situation, I am SO there baby. I like that little tingle of fear. It helps me protect my kids. Since I've accepted that my fear is there for a reason, and that I am more than capable of deciding how to respond to it (whether it would be to ask more questions, make sure I had latex gloves available just in case, or whatever), I don't think fear is wrong or bad.

I wouldn't make my kid play with another to be PC. But if there is a good feeling, if I like the parent and their kid, then it'd probably be fine. I would feel no guilt about the twinge of fear though. Why should it? It's never wrong to listen to your internal mama bear--you just have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of your in/action.


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Wow MamaBear...I mean Tigerchild I liked what you say.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
You know, I did a little research on the person who's been writing the articles about how HIV doesn't cause AIDS, and how HIV is no big deal and can totally be treated with nutrition and such. His name is Gary Null.

Here are some links about him:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

Note: Quackwatch is a VERY HEAVILY medical biased site. But it does give a basic rundown of Null's credentials and some past activities.

In all fairness, here's a bit more info on Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch, the de-licenced MD who runs Quackwatch from the basement of his home in PA, couldn't they do better than that?

http://www.quackpotwatch.org

Bowing out as well....


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Of course, if a child's playmate has HIV, it's very unlikely we will know about it. With all the ignorance, it's something people are going to keep to themselves, understandably. If I or my children are unlucky enough to get HIV, you can bet no one is going to know about it so we won't be kicked out of playgroups and have no one want to sit next to us in case we start spurting blood everywhere.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree Greaseball. My husband and I were talking about this thread, and we decided if god forbid, one of us or our relatives ever contracts something like HIV, we won't be telling anyone. Before I saw this thread, I would have told people, but I can't believe some people's reactions. My husband asked me what if it was their children that was HIV+. I said I didn't know, but they must be okay with being ostracized or else they would be hypocrites.


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## inthesnow (Dec 8, 2004)

Of course I would, assuming the kids got along well.

And I am very offended that those who answered YES are being accused of trying to be PC. Give me a break. I would never make a choice that involves my children just so a bunch of people online can think I am PC.

Ignorance is 100% lethal.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
I think I definitely fall into the situational camp on this one. I do not allow my children to hang out with all HIV- children, so why the heck would I allow them to play with a kid just because they DO have HIV?

No one's talking about going out of one's way to find HIV+ playmates... The question is, if the situation were to arise, would you not allow your child to play with an HIV+ child solely because they are HIV+?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Of course, if a child's playmate has HIV, it's very unlikely we will know about it. With all the ignorance, it's something people are going to keep to themselves, understandably.

Before reading this thread I wouldn't have thought this but I can see this now. How sad.


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## DaednuSO (Apr 16, 2004)

My take is to educate children to do N-O-T-H-I-N-G that can transmit any diseases between them, with anyone.

Period.

Then it becomes a non issue.


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## crunchywannabe (Mar 10, 2003)

We just had this situation appear in our family this last week. One of Kaitlyn's friends from church is not only HIV+, but she is full blown AIDS. She was adopted from Haiti and was a stage B 3+ when she came here.

Miraculously she seems to be fine right now...and her case is being studied.

My point though is that i have NO issues with the girls playing together. We will be educating the children on what AIDS is...and how to be careful if there are injuries.

Tatanya and Kaitlyn are already the best of friends. And I will do nothing to stop them from having a good friendship.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If I or my children are unlucky enough to get HIV, you can bet no one is going to know about it so we won't be kicked out of playgroups and have no one want to sit next to us in case we start spurting blood everywhere.









:

Well said Greaseball.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Hey, here's something we can all worry about - what if you were jogging with someone who had HIV, and they fell and got a major gash and blood squirted into the air and got into the open wound you just happened to have on the day you went jogging with someone who had HIV.

OMG!!!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
No one's talking about going out of one's way to find HIV+ playmates... The question is, if the situation were to arise, would you not allow your child to play with an HIV+ child solely because they are HIV+?

Yeah, and when people said "I don't know, it would depend on the circumstance", they were jumped on for being hateful and ignorant. Well, pot, meet kettle! We all make judgement calls like that. Why should HIV be somehow untouchable? I don't know about you, but I don't make judgement calls about continual playmates based on one factor. That'd be rather stupid, don't you think?

I'd let my child play with an HIV+ child that I liked or that I got along with the parent, and that meshed well with my kid. I probably wouldn't let my child play with an HIV+ child whose parent made me want to beat my head against the wall, or who had a personality that clashed with my child's to the point that the entire time was spent refereeing fights. I realize that in most cases, it's a mix. So it would depend, frankly, on my mood and what mattered most to me that day. (For me personally, well-meshing kids trump even a parent I want to strangle.)

Yet, when people have said "I don't know" or "it depends", people play the "O how ignorant" card (which you know and I know is a flat out insult on these boards).

Gee, maybe I really am super enlightened, because I think that HIV status isn't any more important than any other factor in what makes a good playmate for my kid! Because I really couldn't give a rat's behind about it, I can't say whether or not I'd allow "an HIV+ child" to play with mine. HIV is a virus, not a bodysnatching personality-altering entity. So, what's the kid like? Do I like them? Is their parent annoying? Will I have to drive an hour to get there? If I politely decline, will the parent go berserk and call me a close-minded bigot, assuming it's the virus I fear, instead of me worried about my disaster area of a house?

HIV is not something to sniff at. But really, there are more important things in my hierarchy. But sorry, I call BS on people wanting to box folks into a corner where you MUST say yes with no qualifiers, or else you might as well have burned down the Whites' house (or you are a pitiful moron).


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Huh??????

Ok, I guess this is one of those situations of reading between the lines.

I simply assumed that the question being asked was "*all other things being equal,* would you let your child play with an HIV+ child?" I never said, nor did I understand anyone else to say, that I would go out of my way to find HIV+ children for my child to play with, or force my child to play with HIV+ children. How bizarre would that be? Of course I wouldn't let my child play with a horrible little brat, regardless of their HIV status. Correct me if I'm wrong everyone else, I just really don't think that's the conversation that the rest of us have been having.


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## mamangazelle (Apr 25, 2003)

:LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Hey, here's something we can all worry about - what if you were jogging with someone who had HIV, and they fell and got a major gash and blood squirted into the air and got into the open wound you just happened to have on the day you went jogging with someone who had HIV.

OMG!!!


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
HIV is not something to sniff at. But really, there are more important things in my hierarchy. But sorry, I call BS on people wanting to box folks into a corner where you MUST say yes with no qualifiers, or else you might as well have burned down the Whites' house (or you are a pitiful moron).

Please calm down. No one's jumping on anyone for the reasons you're stating. This thread is going along quite smoothly, despite it's controversial nature, and I'd like it to continue that way.

guerrillamama said quite nicely what I was attempting to say in my previous post.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Correct me if I'm wrong everyone else, I just really don't think that's the conversation that the rest of us have been having.

It sure isn't the conversation I thought I was having (or thought I was reading!).

Tigerchild, I think most of us were assuming "would you let your child play with an HIV+ child?" meant, would HIV status alone be a determining factor. Would you forbid your child playing with a great playmate because said playmate was HIV+. From your stance in your last post, it seems like you are arguing with people who share your pov!


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten*
I understand the poster who said no or with extreme supervision when the kids are little, but more comfortable with it when they are older and more able to understand universal precautions. I know the risks are low - I think everyone understands the risks are low - but there is the possibility, no? That slight possibility (of a fatal illness) is what scares people.

True, but the parents who would not let their kids play with an HIV+ child are probably allowing them to engage in much "riskier" behaviors--such as riding in a car. There is a huge number of activities that carry with them a very, very small risk of death--driving, crossing the street, flying, eating at a restaurant (E coli), etc. We engage in these activities--and allow our families to do so--because the risk is small and the pay-off is comparably great(convenience, visiting the grandparents, seeing the world, not having to cook when you're exhausted, whatever). The risk is similarly miniscule with an HIV+ child, but the payoff is, in my opinion, much greater--namely demonstrating to that child that s/he is a valuable person deserving of love, not someone to be feared and shunned (and demonstrating that to your own child as well).


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg*
True, but the parents who would not let their kids play with an HIV+ child are probably allowing them to engage in much "riskier" behaviors--such as riding in a car. There are a huge number of activities that carry with them a very, very small risk of death--driving, crossing the street, flying, eating at a restaurant (E coli), etc. We engage in these activities--and allow our families to do so--because the risk is small and the pay-off is comparably great(convenience, visiting the grandparents, seeing the world, not having to cook when you're exhausted, whatever). The risk is similarly miniscule with an HIV+ child, but the payoff is, in my opinion, much greater--namely demonstrating to that child that s/he is a valuable person deserving of love, not someone to be feared and shunned (and demonstrating that to your own child as well).

This is such a great post!!!! You beautifully demonstrated what the benefit is.
















I asked my DH last night and he responded "sure, so long as they're not sharing needles :LOL


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

There was an interesting study on the BBC website the other day - sorry, don't have the link. They looked at HIV positive parents, and found that in the U.S., a majority actually reduce physical contact with their children, for example hugs and kisses, also sharing utensils, for fear of infecting the child. There was no such reduction in contact among U.K. parents. The researchers were surprised and, it seemed, saddened, by the U.S. parents' behaviour, which caused emotional distress to both them and their children, and does not reflect what is known about HIV transmission.


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## lynchmon (Nov 12, 2004)

Yes I would.


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## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

Yes, I would too.

I used to live with a friend who has an HIV+ daughter. This friend also has other HIV- children of her own plus numerous foster children in her care. Honestly, we never really worried about transmitting HIV to any of the other children- the risk is just so miniscule. After all, toddlers aren't likely to be sharing needles or having sex. The main concern was protecting the child with HIV from picking up illnesses from other kids.

That being said, I don't think anyone here is speaking out of hatred. Definately fear and maybe a poor choice of wording, but certainly not hatred.


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

Too funny. As somebody that said "of course" I didn't expect to called PC. I mean that was my honest answer









I have to agree with other posters that I was not talking about seeking out HIV+ playmates but if the kids or I befriend a family with an HIV+ child that it would not be a factor in deciding whether or not to spend time with the family. If that makes me PC so be it....

I do think it would be weird to start seeking out kids with any specific characteristics....it reminds me of an old episode of "Mad About You" where Helen Hunt asks Paul Reisder "Do you think we have enough black friends?" and he asks "For what?"

Peace & Much Love,
BJ
Barney & Ben


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## happyhiker&littlehikers (Jan 25, 2005)

Yes I will let them play together,I will also provide care for foster children who are HIV positive.If everyone learns universal precautions and teaches their children univ.prec.,
then we can let our kids enjoy each other.Because not everyone with HIV is open about it Hmmmm...wonder why. We had a friend w/HIV pos child.This was years ago before the current treatments were available.Being friends with this child was a priveledge. We just educated ourselves on how we could be good friends with him while still taking any necessary precautions. Many so called friends suddenly kept their distance from that family,not even allowing them to ride in their car.Oh my goodness,I thought awareness had increased since then.


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