# Love and Logic - Anyone used this? Opinions?



## jmmsunshine (Mar 9, 2007)

My DS is weeks away from his 2nd birthday. My DD is now 3 1/2 weeks old. We like the concepts of gentle discipline, but we're really having some challenges with my DS.

First - everything he's doing is NORMAL! That having been said, it is all stuff that I really need to curb - especially since I spend half my day nursing our newborn. Even with babywearing, I need DS to listen and modify some of his behavior

DH tends to react to DS's misbehavior sternly and with anger. I prefer to distract and re-direct, but it hasn't been working for the last 3 - 4 months. During that time (esp at the end of my pregnancy) I've found myself getting far more frustrated and our daytimes are riddled with me feeling like I'm loosing it only to have DH come home and react even more strongly. DH and I sat down and talked about how we don't want to be teaching DS this way. The very next day, we were out with my SIL and she told us about a seminar she was taking on Love and Logic that runs through the month. We attended for the first time this week.

I like some of the concepts - I like the scripting of "say this" and "do this," and I also like the focus on the immediate response, the empathetic responses, the reminders of good behaviour, the choices, and the natural consequences. I used some of the suggestions today (daytime) and things were ok. But tonight, DH used one and DS absolutely lost it. For my DS, the sun rises and sets on Daddy, and I'm sure that's why DS's response was so over-the-top. We both agreed that DS needed one of us to go in and help him settle down - which DH did and we had a lovely evening after that.

I know we're in the stage where tantrums happen, especially when you're instituting consequences, and I'm ok with that. But the response tonight set off a gut response that my child was screaming for me (or DH) and we weren't "there" for him. And yet, as DS (and later DD) grows, jumping in to rescue him and relieve him of the consequences of his choices will be devastating.

Has anyone had any experience with/opinions on the Love and Logic technique? Did it work for you? Did you take it in whole or just "take what you like and leave the rest?" I'm looking for any feedback on this - positive or negative.

Thanks!!


----------



## Danaoc (Jul 11, 2005)

I took a very similar course called Parent Talk, and I did get SOME techniques from it but left others, especially after reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.

I found that Parent Talk & Love/Logic concentrated on offering choices and natural consequences, but I tended to rely too much on the techniques so that I started leaning towards consequences becoming threats. And Unconditional Parenting goes over this.

Basically, saying "You can choose to pick up your toys or you can choose to not play with them tomorrow" was a way of making it seem that the child has a choice and/or responsibility over what happens to their toys. But when you really look at it it's basically a threat. It's couching what WE want to happen or our choices in a language that puts the fake responsibility on them.

And Alfie Kohn argues against natural consequences in a very powerful way. Something that seems easy, "If you don't arrive for dinner on time, you miss it," gives the child the idea that we don't care about them or that enforcing a consequence is more important than our love for our child. This was a powerful realization for me.

I've come to believe natural consequences is more about lessons that they learn in the real world (ie, if you forget your jacket, you'll get cold) and I choose not to be an enforcer of them.

I'd HIGHLY recommend *Unconditional Parenting* the book or DVD or *Connection Parenting*. And yes, I'd take what feels right to you from the L&L techniques, but if something doesn't sit right with you, ditch it. I think it's awesome that you and dh work to get on the same page. My dh and I do that and it makes for easier parenting imo.
Good luck!


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I like some of their things and some of the approaches to thinking about issues, especially with thinking about who's problem this is. But the use of time out as an immediate consequence for almost everything made me uncomfortable.

Dh and I took a Love and Logic course, and what it was most useful for was to open a dialog about how we want to do things, and to get us talking about parenting issues.

So, I don't find the approach horrendous. For many people it's a good start. If it gets you and your dh on the same page and working toward a common, more gentle approach to discipline, then it might be worth it, even if you eventually don't follow their approach.


----------



## Mammy Julie (Sep 24, 2007)

I havent heard of it but i'm not a bif fan of time out so it doesnt sound like it would work for us. I agree that Alfie Kohns Unconditional parenting is the best gd book i've read. it really makes you question things that you would never have gave a thought to before. Its great that you and your dh are working together though.


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I did NOT like L&L at all. There's good ideas in practically every book I've ever read (including one good idea in an Ezzo book, kwim?), same with L&L. But most of L&L seemed to promote detachment and punishment (even if they don't call it that).

The book I read supported spanking, but only if you do it hard enough. I guess they've taken an anti-spanking approach now, which is good. But it seems that they still have quite a few food related consequences. I read many many examples of witholding food. One example was that Son got his lunch money at the beginning of the week. He spent it all in the first couple days, and Dad wouldn't give him more money. (which is fine with me so far) BUT when Son said he'd pack his lunch the rest of the week, Dad told him that Son would have to PAY for the food he was packing. Since Son had no money left, he couldn't eat lunch for the rest of the week.
I think that type of "consequence" is quite possibly harmful in many ways.

Some books I do like that have concrete suggestions are Becoming the Parent You Want To Be and Loving Your Child Is Not Enough (I just read this again, and still love it)

One of Samalin's main ideas is to be permissive with feelings and strict with behavior.


----------



## Realrellim (Feb 1, 2006)

I read one of the books just after DD turned one. As a whole, I don't like L&L because a lot of it seems too manipulative for my tastes--the "fake responsibility" someone mentioned. I really don't like the idea of giving kids a bunch of choices that don't matter (as one parent put it) and then when it comes to bedtime or something a parent isn't going to negotiate, saying "you had a lot of choices today, didn't you? Now it's my turn." Why not just be honest--it's bedtime? I also don't like the idea that kids need to respond immediately to choices or you make it for them. DD, at least, tends to think through her answers before making a decision so it's important that I wait for a response, not just bowl her over. I'd much rather her know her opinion is valued over the speed of her response. And, DD often comes up with a third choice rather than accepting one of the two choices given, and has done so since she could sign to us. Most of the time her third choice is also acceptable, but under strict L&L, I think you're supposed to ignore that choice and then choose one of the two original choices. Overall, I feel like the parent is scripting everything in a kid's life, and I'm not entirely sure how that prepares them to make decisions on their own, when someone isn't there to say "here are your two choices."

But I think some of the techniques are useful--especially the "do you want to put your coat on or do you want me to help you" kind of stuff. In our household, a few things are non-negotiable (riding in a car seat in the car, brushing teeth, washing hands after encountering some idiot's cat poo near our backyard sandbox). If DD goes immediately into "no" mode on those, sometimes I can toss out choices and occasionally (though rarely) it distracts her. I tend to toss a little of _Playful Parenting_ in too, like "Do you want Monkey to brush your teeth, or me?"

I really enjoyed _Connection Parenting._


----------



## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jmmsunshine* 
But the response tonight set off a gut response that my child was screaming for me (or DH) and we weren't "there" for him. And yet, as DS (and later DD) grows, jumping in to rescue him and relieve him of the consequences of his choices will be devastating.

I can only respond to this bit of what you said (I haven't read the book), but you can still be there for him without removing the consequences.

If my 2yo has a meltdown because she can't do xyz, I'll hold her, comfort her and empathise that I wish she could, but she can't. I'm there, I'm helping her, telling her I love her, but the rule is sticking. Does that make sense?


----------



## honeybee (Mar 12, 2004)

I like a lot of the L&L info, but I don't take it to literal extremes. The scenarios are just examples of how some interactions might work, not word-for-word scripts. Also, like anything, it has to be genuine. If you are just parroting words and not really feeling empathy for your child, then you have a punitive situation, not a situation where the parent is allowing the child to experience the emotions of a natural consequence. I think L&L can be twisted to be punitive, but that is not the true intent.

There is a lot of helpful info there, and I like that it gives you specific examples of how to handle certain situations. It's a great place to begin if you're overwhelmed. But I still read a diverse set of parenting ideas and take things that work from different places.

For example, I found a lot of interesting ideas in _Unconditional Parenting_, but I don't buy into it lock-stock-and barrel either. Personally, I think Alfie Kohn makes some broad statements that overgeneralizes the research he bases his advice on. A study about negative effects of punishing a one-year-old becomes an admonishment that natural conequences are just euphemisms for punishment and are damaging to all childrens' delicate psyches whenever they are used. I just don't buy it.


----------



## jmmsunshine (Mar 9, 2007)

Thanks for everyone's responses! I wanted to throw it out here because the program is a state sponsored "event" and I was afraid it would be really mainstream and put DH and I at odds. I was really nervous when one of the topics this past week was, "What to do when your little one wants to come in bed with you?" Since we cosleep with our newborn, I'm thinking... "Let them!?!"

I must say I was, and am, pleasantly surprized. They went over and over how anytime your baby cries during the first year, you should treat it as a need and respond immediately - and co-sleeping is ok. Their suggestion for the 2nd year of life and beyond was to determine if it was a need or a want - needs should be responded to immediately and met, wants are where you have a little wiggle room in your response. And, if you don't know if it's a need or want, ALWAYS err on the side of nurturing and assume it's a need.

We've begun to institute the, "Uh-Oh - I think you need a little bedroom time. That's so sad." and it's worked very well. We use it sparingly. DH has found that it has almost eliminated his anger response and it's forcing him to be more empathetic. I find that my days have gone from strugle to struggle, to being really enjoyable. My DS seems happier too - he's not constantly struggling with us either. Even when we're not giving him "time out" we've moved to the empathetic responses and everyone seems happier.

I've also started offering more choices. Some are miniscule - like which sock to put on first - but they are helping me to make sure I offer choices all day instead of simply making all the decisions. (I agree that the little choices aren't really teaching him anything, but they've been a good reminder to me!) I've found asking DS if he wants me to change him before or after DD has really taken care of the diaper changing struggles. And asking him if he wants to brush his teeth or if he want me to has helped there. A suggestion I got from another mom there was to "check" his mouth when he was done - "Oh - I see some raisins here, brush, brush, brush, and I see some milk over here, brush, brush, brush..." and go through all the food he's eaten. We've gone from battles where (I'm ashamed to say) I simply would avoid the whole brushing fight to being able to have his teeth brushed every single day this week! That's progress!!!

So thanks for all your responses!

Have a great day!


----------

